# British Drama Toolkit - unofficial voice your honest opinion / critique thread



## SomeGuy (Jul 28, 2018)

Since it seems criticisms and honest opinions that might point out flaws are not allow in commercial threads, I've started this thread so users can hopefully voice their honest opinions on this library. Good or bad, I'd love to hear both as long as they are honest and can hopefully be backed up with examples or reasons for your opinion. (i.e. dont just say "this is awesome" take a moment to show or give specifics as to why. 

Hopefully threads like this away from the commercial announcements where all opinions can be expressed and discussed will be helpful, as I've seen too many "you can post X in a commercial thread - start your own" replies lately.


----------



## SomeGuy (Jul 28, 2018)

As for the library, I must admit I'm confused by the lack of legato for the soft and loud layers, especially in the "main" patches which seems to be designed for chord textures + melodic line on top. Dont get me wrong, the textures are gorgeous, but the ability to quickly write chords plus melody "all in one patch" is a bit stifled by the lack of legato transitions IMO.


----------



## jbuhler (Jul 28, 2018)

SomeGuy said:


> As for the library, I must admit I'm confused by the lack of legato for the soft and loud layers, especially in the "main" patches which seems to be designed for chord textures + melodic line on top. Dont get me wrong, the textures are gorgeous, but the ability to quickly write chords plus melody "all in one patch" is a bit stifled by the lack of legato transitions IMO.


I don't yet have the library but have looked at all the videos posted by SF and listened to most of the demos posted in the forum threads here. I take the idea of this library to be for quickly getting down backgrounds while sketching melodic lines, the latter to be replaced later by another library or a live player. The samples in the loud layer are good enough to use for a scratch track of the melodic line and probably even for a basic demo. The samples in the texture and soft layer seem like Evos that could go into a final production track, though it's hard to say for sure from the demos here. The library as a whole seems like it would be fun to noodle around with as well, more so than most $150 libraries.


----------



## dzilizzi (Jul 28, 2018)

I almost grabbed it, but after thinking about it for a bit, I realized that Christian can make everything sound good, but I can't. My keyboard's velocity reading sucks. At least when just playing. I will pound and barely hear anything without turning up the volume. Other libraries with velocity based changes don't work so well. That said, I can program it. So I put it on my wish list and bough the Spaces 2 upgrade instead.


----------



## Erick - BVA (Jul 29, 2018)

This is a great idea --along the lines of The Orchestra by Best Service? And even in some ways, Behomian Violin by Virhamonic.
I like the idea of being able to play with such dynamics and variety within a single patch.
But.....I've been thinking. Would it be possible to build custom instruments from your existing libraries to acheive a similar result?
If you are somewhat versed in building Kontakt instruments yourself, you could mix and match samples between different libraries and build velocity layers based on certain styles and dynamics, and then
even create something unique. I wonder, does that violate any kind of EULA? Would the government come after me for not using the product "as intended"?


----------



## Marko Zirkovich (Jul 29, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> But.....I've been thinking. Would it be possible to build custom instruments from your existing libraries to acheive a similar result?
> If you are somewhat versed in building Kontakt instruments yourself, you could mix and match samples between different libraries and build velocity layers based on certain styles and dynamics, and then
> even create something unique.



This might be a case for Orange Tree's Mind Control. I haven't used the script in quite some time. I guess I got distracted by all the other great libraries I've accumulated. But it should be possible to create similar effects and patches using existing libraries.


----------



## Erick - BVA (Jul 29, 2018)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> This might be a case for Orange Tree's Mind Control. I haven't used the script in quite some time. I guess I got distracted by all the other great libraries I've accumulated. But it should be possible to create similar effects and patches using existing libraries.


Yeah, the more I think about, the more the idea of "inter" library mixing (at least in a single patch) makes no sense. You have different players, a completely different sound (due to the stage and mics, etc). So it would not be a smooth transition or realistic sounding transition. But you could maybe build custom tools with a collection that was all recorded on the same stage, mics and perspective and with the same players. I've already kind of started doing with the Bernard Herrmann Toolkit.


----------



## Erick - BVA (Jul 29, 2018)

Maybe if some library have a similar sound you could fake it with some de-verbation followed by convolution to lightly bathe the whole sound.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jul 29, 2018)

I haven't bought the library, but my first impression was that it wasn't my soft of thing. 

In fact I dismissed it as an instant 'pot-noodle' library - you know - for the bit where the detective drives his 15 year old Volvo, (on an overcast day of course) down a bleak country lane to where the body has been found, and where 'forensics' are waiting to tell him the time of death. And of course to speak to the man who found the body whilst out walking his dog. 

But having listened to some of the examples posted by people on the forum, who have combined it with with other libraries, I'm beginning to see how and where it can really shine. 

It might be a bit too niche for Spitfire Audio, but I'd love to see what they could so with something like this in conjunction with the Roli Seaboard Rise. The potential control offered could be spectacular, though I imagine it would be technically quite challenging to create. 

So thanks to all you buggers, I'm rather tempted to buy it now.


----------



## wst3 (Jul 29, 2018)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> This might be a case for Orange Tree's Mind Control.



Funny you should mention that - I just dusted off my copy yesterday. I was very enthusiastic about it when it first came out, but set up is complex, especially between libraries from different developers.

Ironically, Greg sort of made it obsolete with the intricate (and easier to manage?) controls in his current libraries. So it fell by the wayside, at least for me.

Something in the first two videos triggered the thought. I would imagine that I can mimic that behavior with Mind Control. That leaves the actual sounds, which are equally lovely, but I think Tundra gets close to several of them.

There is time left to do some experimenting - I had decided to pass until I heard some user demos, now I'm back on the fence (and it is so uncomfortable!)


----------



## TGV (Jul 29, 2018)

In Logic, this would be very easy to do: make a track stack with 3 tracks, filter one by low velocity, one by mid range, one by high velocity, et voila. You of course still need to get those sweet samples that work well together. Spitfire's Evos might be a good candidate for the bottom layer, but the other two?


----------



## Quasar (Jul 29, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> ...But.....I've been thinking. Would it be possible to build custom instruments from your existing libraries to acheive a similar result?
> If you are somewhat versed in building Kontakt instruments yourself, you could mix and match samples between different libraries and build velocity layers based on certain styles and dynamics, and then...



Cool idea. The problem for me is that perhaps you can, but _I_ can't. I don't know how LOL.

And lauds to Someguy for starting this thread. The Commercial forum is supposed to be the dev's showcase space, which they pay for and have every right to have, unencumbered by criticism or complaint. It's only fair that there be a place for that.

Is it just me or is legato for a great many use case scenarios often overrated? It seems to me that if I buy this, which I am still inclined to do, if I need a legato line it would most likely be carried by another instrument that BDT would layer with anyway, so its absence isn't any sort of deal breaker at all, but squarely in the "no big deal" category. What it does it appears to do quite well.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jul 29, 2018)

I understand the motivation in starting this thread, but there's already an ongoing thread in the Sample Talk forum discussing BDT:

Something New from Spitfire Audio...

It was started on July 19.

Honest opinions may be posted there as well.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## gpax (Jul 29, 2018)

@SomeGuy - As to keep the focus on that other ongoing thread, I opted to send you a PM of my experience so far, related to your specific talking points (not necessarily the focus of that other, rambling thread). 

Greg


----------



## Wolf68 (Jul 29, 2018)

Bought it, had yet no time to try it...I will post my impressions soon...


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2018)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> This might be a case for Orange Tree's Mind Control. I haven't used the script in quite some time. I guess I got distracted by all the other great libraries I've accumulated. But it should be possible to create similar effects and patches using existing libraries.



Hi Marko Zirkovich,

Thanks for referring to Organge Tree's *Mind Control Script*.

I'm going to purchase Mind Control Script, I think it is a fantastic utility to add a lot of realtime expressive possibilities to Kontakt instruments.

Q. Do you know if I can install the Mind Control Script on more than one PC running Kontakt ? i.e. One Master, and 2 Slave PCs ? I'm guessing .. Yes, but just wanted to double check on this.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## dzilizzi (Jul 29, 2018)

Probably up to Orange Tree, but I found most allow up to 3 installations in conjunction with Kontakt's 3 installations for use by the same user. (so one user, three computers)

Edit: OT does not have any specific use requirements other than for use with full Kontakt. So I'm guessing single user, as many full Kontakt versions as you have.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 29, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> Probably up to Orange Tree, but I found most allow up to 3 installations in conjunction with Kontakt's 3 installations for use by the same user. (so one user, three computers)
> 
> Edit: OT does not have any specific use requirements other than for use with full Kontakt. So I'm guessing single user, as many full Kontakt versions as you have.



Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jul 29, 2018)

Quasar said:


> Cool idea. The problem for me is that perhaps you can, but _I_ can't. I don't know how LOL.
> 
> And lauds to Someguy for starting this thread. The Commercial forum is supposed to be the dev's showcase space, which they pay for and have every right to have, unencumbered by criticism or complaint. It's only fair that there be a place for that.
> 
> Is it just me or is legato for a great many use case scenarios often overrated? It seems to me that if I buy this, which I am still inclined to do, if I need a legato line it would most likely be carried by another instrument that BDT would layer with anyway, so its absence isn't any sort of deal breaker at all, but squarely in the "no big deal" category. What it does it appears to do quite well.


It’s not just you. Legato is great but not everything needs it. I’m still deciding on BDT but I do very much like what I hear. 

Like @mikeybabes above, initially I dismissed the library as something very nice but, that I probably didn’t need. The more I consider it, the more I like it. I like the intimate nature of the sound and I can see/hear it mixing well for subtle hybrid composition. I certainly don’t think of it as a work-around for those that can’t/don’t/won’t compose. It’s just another tool and those with skill will use it skillfully. 

If anyone was going to DIY the sort of patches in this library you’d need some similar samples. If you’ve got that then great but standard libraries aren’t usually offering the sort of textures that I’m hearing in BDT. I have Tundra and it would come very close and might be able to match it for textures and atmospherics. Not sure about Loegria or Uist as I have neither. If Strezov offered a woodwind and/or Strings option in the AMS series it probably would be able to do the job (but they don’t unfortunately). 

I’m sure there are others but again you need to have that source material and the time to put it together. The library is $150 which sounds like decent value to me. How long would it take you to assemble this DIY? How much is your time worth? Nothing stopping individuals from making their own patches or even extend on this idea and widen the scope of instruments available. And of course I have no problem with someone doing any of this (EULA allowing), just thinking it through out loud. 

It was also discussed in one of the other threads about midi-filtering a BDT track by velocity into say three different tracks which would give you another level of control for mixing the sounds. Just putting it here as I thought that was quite a good idea in principle.


----------



## Marko Zirkovich (Jul 29, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> Q. Do you know if I can install the Mind Control Script on more than one PC running Kontakt ? i.e. One Master, and 2 Slave PCs ?  I'm guessing .. Yes, but just wanted to double check on this.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp



Hi Muziksculp, as dzilizzi wrote already, there doesn't seem to be a special limit imposed by Orange Tree. So, "normal" use cases shouldn't be a problem. You could also ask Greg from Orange Tree directly if you have special circumstances. Just to be on the safe side.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 30, 2018)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> Hi Muziksculp, as dzilizzi wrote already, there doesn't seem to be a special limit imposed by Orange Tree. So, "normal" use cases shouldn't be a problem. You could also ask Greg from Orange Tree directly if you have special circumstances. Just to be on the safe side.



Thanks.

I purchased it.  (Not the SA BDT library, but Orange Tree's Mind Control Script).


----------



## Xilef (Jul 30, 2018)

Hey guys,

I'm thinking of buying this one but I have a question comparing this library to Orchestral Swarm.

I'm very happy with the Alternative Solo Strings which I bought a few weeks ago. Now I want a library which can be used as a textural background especially for the Solo Strings but also for electric guitars or to be mixed with synth patches in any kind of ambience scoring genre.
Normally I used the EVO 3 and Scary Strings / Frozen Strings for that job. But I want something new, more versatile.

My 'problem' with Orchestral Swarm is that it containes (beside the nice subtle patches) very strange ones which I know I mostly won't use. But I also like the staccato and pizzicato patches and the chamber sound and that it contains brass as well.

As BDT seems to fit my purpose very well (because of the texture thing) I have the 'problem' that these are also Solo instruments which I just ordered (see above). But the price is so nice!

What is your opinion? :D
Do I need both?


----------



## Satorious (Jul 30, 2018)

Only you can answer that! Not sure if this will help (probably not), whilst both are texture-based libraries they work in different ways and cover different ground:

- BDT doesn't have any brass instruments like Swarm and it breaks the individual strings/woodwinds up so you can mix them together to create more varied ensembles. 

- Swarm uses the Modwheel (?), whereas BDT is velocity based (this means you can accentuate some notes more than others to create interesting effects - but the modwheel won't control dynamics like it does in Swarm)

- There are no staccato or pizzicato patches in BDT. You get non-legato solo instruments in the higher velocities which makes BDT ideal as a sketching tool. In all honesty you'd probably want to replace these solo parts with something more expressive, but it's great for experimenting or getting some ideas down quickly within a single patch.


----------



## gregjazz (Jul 31, 2018)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> Hi Muziksculp, as dzilizzi wrote already, there doesn't seem to be a special limit imposed by Orange Tree. So, "normal" use cases shouldn't be a problem. You could also ask Greg from Orange Tree directly if you have special circumstances. Just to be on the safe side.


Yup, feel free to install Mind Control on multiple computers, as long as it's for your own use or the use of your studio.


----------



## Alex Niedt (Jul 31, 2018)

Satorious said:


> In all honesty you'd probably want to replace these solo parts with something more expressive, but it's great for experimenting or getting some ideas down quickly within a single patch.


This sums up BDT, for me. My first instinct is always to replace it with other stuff, which makes it an absolutely pointless purchase, as I'm not trying to buy libraries I need to replace with other libraries.  Major buyer's remorse here, which I've never experienced with Spitfire until now.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 31, 2018)

gregjazz said:


> Yup, feel free to install Mind Control on multiple computers, as long as it's for your own use or the use of your studio.


Hi gregjazz, 

Thanks for the feedback. 

This is a very useful script for Kontakt. lots of possibilities, one needs to just get creative with how to use it with various sample libraries. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## fretti (Jul 31, 2018)

I personally really like BDT and how fast you can do stuff with it.
*But* (and thats probably for most the big: "but") I don't have another library (except Tundra when I think about it) for those specific sounds/textures etc.. So for me it adds to my palette, but for many other who already invested in lots of other SF stuff in that department, probably won't find it to be "the next big thing" (maybe more a shortcut to play stuff in fast with the velocities?!).
So I'm far from being disappointed with the library, especially for that price


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 31, 2018)

I decided that SA's new BDT library is not something I need, although the price is quite reasonable.

When BDT was first announced, I thought it will be a library similar to their BHT library, but that was not the case. 

I'm really waiting for their *Hans Zimmer Strings Pickup* Library (Hopefully it's not too far away from being released), that will complement the main SA HZ Strings Library, adding more short, and other articulation options, surely on the look out for other future titles from SA that are more complementing, and useful for my needs.


----------



## jbuhler (Jul 31, 2018)

Alex Niedt said:


> This sums up BDT, for me. My first instinct is always to replace it with other stuff, which makes it an absolutely pointless purchase, as I'm not trying to buy libraries I need to replace with other libraries.  Major buyer's remorse here, which I've never experienced with Spitfire until now.


Did you find this was true only for the loud layer or the whole thing? That is, did you find yourself replacing the textures and soft layer as well? Also my concern has been that the background layers are relatively few in number (compared to things like the Evos or swarms) and so the library would feel constricting in its possibilities. On the other hand, replacing libraries with other libraries seems to me to be precisely what a sketching tool would be for. In that sense, an overly limited palette would be a much greater concern to me than if I had to replace libraries as I built out the composition from a basic sketch.


----------



## Hanu_H (Jul 31, 2018)

One thing I must admire is the Spitfires marketing. I think they could record wet sock hitting the floor and people would buy it and call it revolutionary. For me this sounds a bit outdated and only usable for sketching. I always love Spitfire's demos, but this time, can't really hear anything special.

-Hannes


----------



## MaxOctane (Jul 31, 2018)

Hanu_H said:


> I always love Spitfire's demos, but this time, can't really hear anything special.



Dunno about that. There's been several short demos already --lots more than usual for a new Spitfire release-- and they're all pretty nice. So even if there's nothing new in the sounds _per se _(and I agree, most of these sounds can be found elsewhere, even inside the Spitfire range) there must be something about it that is facilitating so many quick demos.


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Jul 31, 2018)

One of things that helps me compose with BDT so far is not using a click or tempo in general. For those who bought and are not enjoying the library you may wish to give that a go.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 31, 2018)

Alex Niedt said:


> This sums up BDT, for me. My first instinct is always to replace it with other stuff, which makes it an absolutely pointless purchase, as I'm not trying to buy libraries I need to replace with other libraries.  Major buyer's remorse here, which I've never experienced with Spitfire until now.



A serious shame for me, as 2-hand play-in is a great benefit. Some time left, but focusing more now on missing mainstream libs.

btw, _ in terms of SFA_, new Solo Strings has some notable issues as well ?


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jul 31, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> Dunno about that. There's been several short demos already --lots more than usual for a new Spitfire release-- and they're all pretty nice. So even if there's nothing new in the sounds _per se _(and I agree, most of these sounds can be found elsewhere, even inside the Spitfire range) there must be something about it that is facilitating so many quick demos.


Is there nothing new in the sounds? I’m talking about the softer layers here, the beds and not the loud lead lines. I have several Spitfire libs but none that could match what I hear in these demos or walkthroughs. I’m asking from ignorance here not being argumentative. Would like to know what you’d use to achieve the same result. I went through Tundra (which I think was most likely to cover similar ground in my collection) and couldn’t match it. I don’t have OAs Chamber Evos...yet. 



Hanu_H said:


> One thing I must admire is the Spitfires marketing. I think they could record wet sock hitting the floor and people would buy it and call it revolutionary. For me this sounds a bit outdated and only usable for sketching. I always love Spitfire's demos, but this time, can't really hear anything special.
> 
> -Hannes


If the wet sock was recorded in Air Lyndhurst and had enough dynamic layers and Legato (of course ), then I’d be all in like a...well like a frog in a sock.


----------



## Hanu_H (Jul 31, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> Dunno about that. There's been several short demos already --lots more than usual for a new Spitfire release-- and they're all pretty nice. So even if there's nothing new in the sounds _per se _(and I agree, most of these sounds can be found elsewhere, even inside the Spitfire range) there must be something about it that is facilitating so many quick demos.


Well isn't the whole point of this library to be fast? I just haven't heard anything that really sounds great. There is some nice textures but all the melodic lines sound outdated and harsh. Didn't Project Sam already invent this 10 years ago?

-Hannes


----------



## pinki (Jul 31, 2018)

I will be happy to consider purchasing this software when I have tried the demo that Spitfire releases. Until then I can't imagine why I would buy something that I do not know what it is.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 31, 2018)

So much truly quality SFA creation /production …. and now a number of stumbles (IMHO). New disputed Intros, and widely criticized libs not fixed. Absolutely not a 'hater', but $$$ which would flowed easily to SFA are now going elsewhere, or not spent.
BT_Phobos, new Solo Strings, maybe HZ Strings, now BDT …..

All this is pushing steadily away ….. not just from these newer releases, but also from pricey 'mainstream' Libs which were a 'done deal' for me not long ago ……. Orchestra, or piecemeal Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, LCO ….. now in doubt as SF direction is unsettling. 
Website is even impacted as current version on Chrome doesn't allow 'Shop' and easy display of complete menu.

Honestly hoping for notable positive turnaround ……..


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jul 31, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> So much truly quality SFA creation /production …. and now a number of stumbles (IMHO). New disputed Intros, and widely criticized libs not fixed. Absolutely not a 'hater', but $$$ which would flowed easily to SFA are now going elsewhere, or not spent.
> BT_Phobos, new Solo Strings, maybe HZ Strings, now BDT …..
> 
> All this is pushing steadily away ….. not just from these newer releases, but also from pricey 'mainstream' Libs which were a 'done deal' for me not long ago ……. Orchestra, or piecemeal Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, LCO ….. now in doubt as SF direction is unsettling.
> ...


All I'd say in response is to make the decision yourself. I listen to comments here and to a varying degree they will influence my decisions. More often than not the problems that one person (or many) has with a library don't concern me at all but, sometimes they do and I appreciate the input from people who have used the product. However, in the end I always make the decision myself. It comes down to what you need, and do you think this will help you to make music. It is very easy to get carried away with the emotion on here positive or negative but because a library does or doesn't work for one user doesn't mean the same for you. This one feels quite marmite (ie it is dividing opinions fairly evenly) and so, once you have a general feel for comments from users, take a day or two to consider what you need and if this library helps.

edit - That sounded a little like I was getting on my high horse, better be careful I don't fall off. Sorry, if it sounds that way, I had meant it in good faith.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jul 31, 2018)

Your post sounded very even-handed to me, @SoNowWhat?.

It does help to get input from others; but of course, the most important input on making personal buying decisions is your own.

(Well, that and your bank accounts'.)

Best,

Geoff


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 31, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> *****
> edit - That sounded a little like I was getting on my high horse, better be careful I don't fall off. Sorry, if it sounds that way, I had meant it in good faith.



No problem here. 
Thread is " … voice your honest opinion / critique" and my post kinda said that.
I have made several choices lately, not necessarily without reservations.
Maybe sufficient to state that I have strong respect for the core of SF body of work, and hoping for a 'clear' winner soon ….. _no more Marmite_ !


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jul 31, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> Your post sounded very even-handed to me, @SoNowWhat?.
> 
> It does help to get input from others; but of course, the most important input on making personal buying decisions is your own.
> 
> ...


so, you've seen my bank account then


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jul 31, 2018)

If I have one criticism of BDT (and I don't own it yet, this is based around demo videos), it's that you very much have to write to the samples (you could make this argument for almost any sample library). As CH says in his contextual video he listens to the bowing and works to that rather than say having complete control over what happens and when. However, nobody ever said it was anything different to that and it was quite apparent to me from the start. I still like it and this is as much based on the actual sound of the thing. It's wonderfully intimate and seems to have some lovely textures. For $150 you're unlikely to get that sort of complete control in the current market.


----------



## Brian2112 (Jul 31, 2018)

Make a Kontakt Multi

Step 1: load BDT
Step 2: load SSE in Kontakt slot 2 (same midi channel). Adjust volume 1/2 of BDT
Step 3: load your favorite piano.Again same midi channel. (Preferebly, Galaxy Vintage D with the Taj Mahal IR)
Step 4: rout the first 2 to QL spaces2 default program.

step 5: score the next 500 years of “Midsummer Murder Mysteries” -the show that you can’t watch all of in a lifetime yet they managed to film in the last 20 years. The great BBC paradox is yours to control!

Seriously, a great and inspirational library IMO.


----------



## noises on (Aug 1, 2018)

Brian2112 said:


> Make a Kontakt Multi
> 
> Step 1: load BDT
> Step 2: load SSE in Kontakt slot 2 (same midi channel). Adjust volume 1/2 of BDT
> ...


Excuse my ignorance SSE?


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 1, 2018)

noises on said:


> Excuse my ignorance SSE?


Spitfire Symphonic Strings Evolutions if I had to guess. But maybe that's SSSE????


----------



## gpax (Aug 1, 2018)

So far I’m really liking it. 

But I confess to investing in libraries which sometimes appeal for their narrow or niche focus, even if only used to elevate a project or two. What stood out to me was how the solo instrument approach was even more expressive and present than Orchestral Swarm (which got bumped in an existing project in favor of BDT, as did a couple of other layers). Even if just winds and strings, it’s an intimate complement to Tundra, Evos...

I think the videos are fairly naked and honest, if you watch them all, including the Sam Sim interview. But I can also see how different keyboards are going to color, if not frustrate some user experiences where BDT is built around velocity (and where seaming notes, ala a more legato feel, may be elusive to some). 

I just went back and scanned the videos. Is there an option to set the velocity layers to compensate for disparate playing styles and keyboards? 

My synth style keyboard seems perfectly suited, whereas my weighted hits a bit too heavy. Even Paul, Oliver and Christian encounter this if you watch closely, unleashing that top layer inadvertently from time to time. 

But I spend my life in the midi editor anyway...


----------



## MatFluor (Aug 1, 2018)

My honest assessment:

- Beautiful sounds
- Questionable playability

I don't need legato for this kind of stuff - it lives from the room to breath - and it's not it's intend to be a soloistic library. For that you have other options. The sounds are stellar, and I like the emotional content in there. Clear, close, very textural.
Playability - I said "questionable". I'm not a pianist, and currently I only have a Synth-action Keyboard (my StudioLogic SL88 is coming next month). With that, I find it hard to getting used to - hard to control. The loud layers are very loud, and the textural layers are very soft, so when you accidentally press too hard, e.g. a way too loud cello pops into your ears. You can do fade ins and outs with CC11 (Expression), and that's good enough for the textural usage I intend. It offers enough variety for me to be worthwhile, and for 150 bucks it's fair priced - we can discuss the normal sales price, but still. I have a hard time playing it fluidly, but my Nektar isn't the world best velocity-wise. I hope the Fatar will remedy it a bit 

What I miss:
- Adjustable layer "heights", to (as gpax said) compensate for bad velocities or playing
- A more streamlined volume progression, loud is so much more loud than the rest, makes it tedious to mix

I like it, love the colors and it's extremely close to my "composer voice", only that I don't have to hire musicians to record that, but I can make a cue with that, a little tundra, a little piano and maybe solo strings. Or simply sketch something out. For sketching alone - I wouldn't say "worth it", but if you use it as a tool in your toolbox rather than a "one click solution", for this price, there is nothing that can compare (except some hardcore underpaid students)

I didn't make a review video or whatever and god knows I'm not the most pro guy running around, so, take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Aug 1, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> If I have one criticism of BDT (and I don't own it yet, this is based around demo videos), it's that you very much have to write to the samples (you could make this argument for almost any sample library). As CH says in his contextual video he listens to the bowing and works to that rather than say having complete control over what happens and when. However, nobody ever said it was anything different to that and it was quite apparent to me from the start. I still like it and this is as much based on the actual sound of the thing. It's wonderfully intimate and seems to have some lovely textures. For $150 you're unlikely to get that sort of complete control in the current market.


This is spot on. More than most libraries you have to play to these samples (Craig's suggestion of not playing to a click is also spot on - and less frustrating.) Think evo series with more flexibility. It is a bit of a one trick pony BUT what it does - it does very well. The $150 for THAT is quite fair IMHO. If you can keep your expectations measured in this regard, I think most will get wonderful use out of this one. Especially those under tight deadlines.


----------



## prodigalson (Aug 1, 2018)

Rob Elliott said:


> This is spot on. More than most libraries you have to play to these samples (Craig's suggestion of not playing to a click is also spot on - and less frustrating.) Think evo series with more flexibility. It is a bit of a one trick pony BUT what it does - it does very well. The $150 for THAT is quite fair IMHO. If you can keep your expectations measured in this regard, I think most will get wonderful use out of this one. Especially those under tight deadlines.



I agree. If this same library was released as Heavyocity's latest NOVO exp pack ("now with woodwinds!") the reaction would be different.


----------



## Lee Blaske (Aug 1, 2018)

Here's another quick track I threw together last night just as an experiment to find out what BDT is good for (and also to find out what it might not be quite so good for). This piece is in the Americana-ish vein (don't know if that's taboo, since it's a *British* Drama Toolkit  ). Piano is from the Olafur Arnalds Toolkit. Everything else is BDT. 

What I like about BDT in this context is the gentleness, fragility and vulnerability. The character is right. It's not so adept and controllable, though, for playing faster lines (which probably should be expected). BDT is most likely best suited for more ethereal or dramatic things moving and evolving at a slower pace. I think I'd choose different sampled instruments if I was doing the piece below for real. BDT might be useful for pads, though. Of all the instruments in BDT, I think the clarinet is the most agile (especially in the chalumeau Register).


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Aug 1, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Here's another quick track I threw together last night just as an experiment to find out what BDT is good for (and also to find out what it might not be quite so good for). This piece is in the Americana-ish vein (don't know if that's taboo, since it's a *British* Drama Toolkit  ). Piano is from the Olafur Arnalds Toolkit. Everything else is BDT.
> 
> What I like about BDT in this context is the gentleness, fragility and vulnerability. The character is right. It's not so adept and controllable, though, for playing faster lines (which probably should be expected). BDT is most likely best suited for more ethereal or dramatic things moving and evolving at a slower pace. I think I'd choose different sampled instruments if I was doing the piece below for real. BDT might be useful for pads, though. Of all the instruments in BDT, I think the clarinet is the most agile (especially in the chalumeau Register).



Would it be fair to say you could get the same BDT string texture and soft sounds from Olafur's Chamber Evolutions? I'm just thinking I might want to save up for that instead.


----------



## Lee Blaske (Aug 1, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Would it be fair to say you could get the same BDT string texture and soft sounds from Olafur's Chamber Evolutions? I'm just thinking I might want to save up for that instead.



It would be different, because BDT uses solo instruments (stacked in some presets), whereas Olafur's Chamber Evolutions are a section playing together.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Aug 1, 2018)

Thanks Lee!


----------



## Xilef (Aug 1, 2018)

Thanks for all the replies and inspirations to help answering my question on the second page!
I've now decided to not buy this library (for now) - for two (non-proofed) reasons:

1. I don't like the loud solo sounds and as I wouldn't use them for jamming they will only 'disturb' my workflow instead of enhancing it.

2. I have the feeling there are also nice textures in other Spitfire libraries out there which fit my needs a bit better.


----------



## MaxOctane (Aug 1, 2018)

Echoing @MatFluor, the lib needs a simple slider for adjusting relative volume of loud/texture layers. 

Also, the velocity cutoff points should be directly editable. The tiny little graph where you can draw a velocity curve, that is super hard to use.


----------



## Brian2112 (Aug 1, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Spitfire Symphonic Strings Evolutions if I had to guess. But maybe that's SSSE????



Spitfire Symphonic Strings Evolutions is what I meant yes. Sorry!


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 1, 2018)

Brian2112 said:


> Spitfire Symphonic Strings Evolutions is what I meant yes. Sorry!


Please don't apologise, I do it all the time. So many abbreviations fly around VI-C.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 2, 2018)

Having watched several non-SF walk-throughs of BDT now, I'm sort of wondering why SF didn't design the patches with slots, where you could choose which sample set(s) you wanted for the texture layer, the soft layer, and the loud layer and also have control over which velocity range triggered each layer and where you could also designate which layer(s) the modwheel controlled. I mean it looks like you could do this by loading individual articulations and writing a Kontakt multiscript (or use some third party multiscript designed to do this sort of thing) but it would have been nice if this flexibility had been built into the instrument. (And it doesn't seem like it would have been overly complicated to build such flexibility into the instrument.)


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 2, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> Having watched several non-SF walk-throughs of BDT now, I'm sort of wondering why SF didn't design the patches with slots, where you could choose which sample set(s) you wanted for the texture layer, the soft layer, and the loud layer and also have control over which velocity range triggered each layer and where you could also designate which layer(s) the modwheel controlled. I mean it looks like you could do this by loading individual articulations and writing a Kontakt multiscript (or use some third party multiscript designed to do this sort of thing) but it would have been nice if this flexibility had been built into the instrument. (And it doesn't seem like it would have been overly complicated to build such flexibility into the instrument.)


Completely agree about being able to adjust velocity transitions between layers. Maybe that will come in an update? (If you’re listening Spitfire). 
As for the “slots” idea, that would be very handy but can you not achieve bespoke combinations from the single instrument patches? You were hinting at this but seems you want some additional flexibility in there.


----------



## Garry (Aug 2, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Completely agree about being able to adjust velocity transitions between layers. Maybe that will come in an update? (If you’re listening Spitfire).
> As for the “slots” idea, that would be very handy but can you not achieve bespoke combinations from the single instrument patches? You were hinting at this but seems you want some additional flexibility in there.



Personally, I think I'm holding out until this happens. I really like the library, and it very much suits the type of music I write, but I've noticed in many of the non-Spitfire videos, the top velocity sounds poking out too much; if I can control the velocity threads and amplitude of each, that would be perfect.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 2, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Completely agree about being able to adjust velocity transitions between layers. Maybe that will come in an update? (If you’re listening Spitfire).
> As for the “slots” idea, that would be very handy but can you not achieve bespoke combinations from the single instrument patches? You were hinting at this but seems you want some additional flexibility in there.


Yes, you can, but I think you'd need to configure it in the DAW or write a multiscript. I don't think you can do it and have the playability just by loading the single instrument patches.


----------



## dpasdernick (Aug 3, 2018)

Does anybody know when the intro pricing end?


----------



## pfmusic (Aug 3, 2018)

August 9th. They always have this info on the product page for future reference.


----------



## quantum7 (Aug 3, 2018)

pfmusic said:


> August 9th. They always have this info on the product page for future reference.



Only 6 more days to make up my mind. D'oh!

I just noticed on Spitfire's BDT webpage. "_We can’t write your music for you_". Really? Why not? What's up with that???


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 3, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> Only 6 more days to make up my mind. D'oh!
> 
> I just noticed on Spitfire's BDT webpage. "_We can’t write your music for you_". Really? Why not? What's up with that???


I’m not sure what we’re paying them for tbh


----------



## itsyourself (Aug 3, 2018)

you would think it would be relatively easy to design it so you can just grab the lines dividing the layers in the GUI and move them up and down according to taste, and so customise it that way. You can adjust the overall velocity curve in the advanced view, but it is very fiddly and doesn't really give you control over the division of layers.


----------



## jtnyc (Aug 3, 2018)

itsyourself said:


> you would think it would be relatively easy to design it so you can just grab the lines dividing the layers in the GUI and move them up and down according to taste, and so customise it that way. You can adjust the overall velocity curve in the advanced view, but it is very fiddly and doesn't really give you control over the division of layers.



In many of the walkthroughs I've seen, this seems obvious. Notes poking out in awkward ways and a general feeling of instability in the playability. Nothing I've heard sounds all that great either. The textures are nice, but overall it just doesn't sound all that convincing as the top lead sounds often sound awkward and unnatural. I suppose fiddling with the midi afterwards could help balance things out.


----------



## quantum7 (Aug 3, 2018)

I'm pretty impressed by the sound personally though, although I am also concerned about sounds "poking out" if I am not playing at perfect velocity levels. Of course, like many others here, I edit MIDI like crazy after the fact, so it wouldn't be a problem in the end.


----------



## Quasar (Aug 5, 2018)

Garry said:


> Personally, I think I'm holding out until this happens. I really like the library, and it very much suits the type of music I write, but I've noticed in many of the non-Spitfire videos, the top velocity sounds poking out too much; if I can control the velocity threads and amplitude of each, that would be perfect.


You can adjust the velocity curve, which obviously isn't the same, but it might mitigate the "poking out" issue, depending on how you play, which I noticed too upon acquiring the library.



MatFluor said:


> My honest assessment:
> - Beautiful sounds
> - Questionable playability



If I wasn't a piano player I don't think I would like this library as much, and even being used to keyboards it's fairly idiosyncratic, and you can't necessarily use "muscle memory" to intuitively know how loud a particular note is going to sound...

IMHO it's just a question of getting used to how the notes behave more than anything else. But yeah, an adjustable feature similar to how Indiginus or Orange Tree Samples have sliders to control the velocity values 0-127 associated with a given layer would be really cool.



sostenuto said:


> So much truly quality SFA creation /production …. and now a number of stumbles (IMHO). New disputed Intros, and widely criticized libs not fixed. Absolutely not a 'hater', but $$$ which would flowed easily to SFA are now going elsewhere, or not spent.
> BT_Phobos, new Solo Strings, maybe HZ Strings, now BDT …..
> 
> All this is pushing steadily away ….. not just from these newer releases, but also from pricey 'mainstream' Libs which were a 'done deal' for me not long ago ……. Orchestra, or piecemeal Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, LCO ….. now in doubt as SF direction is unsettling.
> ...



TBH I don't really understand your criticism. You either like a library or you don't. It either fits with what you want to do or it doesn't. Why would a recent release dissuade you from buying an earlier "mainstream" library that you had decided you liked? Those libraries are still the same as they were before...

...We've moved into a time when pretty much ALL of the bread-&-butter instruments (pedal steel guitar notwithstanding) have now been sampled by numerous companies, and devs are already straining credibility in their attempts to "spin" a particular VI as somehow different enough that it merits being noticed, attempting to stand out in a crowd. So it's almost inevitable that future direction will often turn in favor of various niche libraries that do particular things that lie outside the standard gamut of mainstream solo & ensemble sounds & articulations.

BDT is an example of this, and my guess is that it will only be one in perhaps a long series of specialty "flavor" libraries, and that we'll be encouraged to "collect the whole set!" etc. if enough people buy them and the initiative is deemed a commercial success. When it comes to these various special flavor libraries, IMHO it's simply a question of whether a particular specialty fits with what you want to do. No doubt some flavor libraries will appeal to you and some won't.


----------



## rrichard63 (Aug 5, 2018)

Quasar said:


> ... my guess is that it will only be one in perhaps a long series of specialty "flavor" libraries, and that we'll be encouraged to "collect the whole set!" etc. if enough people buy them and the initiative is deemed a commercial success. When it comes to these various special flavor libraries, IMHO it's simply a question of whether a particular specialty fits with what you want to do. ...


I expressed a similar thought here

https://vi-control.net/community/th...-toolkit-discussion.73435/page-7#post-4263875

In a couple of thoughtful responses, folks pointed out that this marketing strategy would lead toward limited sales and correspondingly higher prices for each library in the series. Also that the genre-specific name was probably decided on after overall design (velocity layers controlling parts of the arrangement) was developed.


----------



## Quasar (Aug 5, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> I expressed a similar thought here
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...-toolkit-discussion.73435/page-7#post-4263875
> 
> In a couple of thoughtful responses, folks pointed out that this marketing strategy would lead toward limited sales and correspondingly higher prices for each library in the series. Also that the genre-specific name was probably decided on after overall design (velocity layers controlling parts of the arrangement) was developed.


 
Missed that, thanks, and good points to be sure.

Genre-specific names don't mean much of anything to me, although (like virtually everyone here) I probably listen more closely to the musical components of visual media than the average person. I also tend to like British drama, and thought almost immediately of the _Foyle's War_ theme (masterful serial TV BTW) when the library was introduced, so I suppose the name "British Drama" fits... At any rate they have to call it something.


----------



## idematoa (Dec 27, 2018)

Spitfire Audio - *British Drama Toolkit* - Viola + Double Bass (Long) & Albion Tundra V - Stephenson Dev Kit


----------



## IdealSequenceG (Dec 28, 2018)

ppp sound is cool. It seems to be pretty good in the ambient genre.


----------



## idematoa (Mar 5, 2019)

*01 - UVI - Grand Piano - Model D
02 - Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit - Violin, Viola, Bass Clarinet & Cello*
*








*


----------



## ism (Mar 5, 2019)

idematoa said:


> *01 - UVI - Grand Piano - Model D
> 02 - Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit - Violin, Viola, Bass Clarinet & Cello
> 
> 
> ...





That's a particular good example of what I love about the 'middle layer textures' of BDT. To detailed for ambient of background. Not detailed enough for a melodic or contrapuntal layer. I like the way the blends with the foreground piano. My instance would be to but an additional SSW solo instrument on top. Or if you going ambient, maybe some Tundra or LCO atmosphere in the background. But for middle ground textures, this really quite wonderful.


----------



## idematoa (Mar 6, 2019)

*Morning Sweetness In The South Of France*
*
01 - Spitfire Audio - Labs - Choir : Long
02 Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit








*


----------



## idematoa (Mar 9, 2019)

*01 - Spitfire Audio - Labs - Super Sul Tasto Cello
02 - Spitfire Audio - OACE
03 - Spitfire Audio - BDT*
*











*


----------



## ism (Mar 9, 2019)

idematoa said:


> *Morning Sweetness In The South Of France
> 
> 01 - Spitfire Audio - Labs - Choir : Long
> 02 Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit
> ...





I really like the textures in this. But the first thing I would do is replace the violin with something with proper legato. I can see the value in sketching and I love this library's unique ability for 'middle ground texture'. But the one place I don't find it at all convincing is in violin melodies.

As per the title, I do hear an expression of 'sweetness' in the textures, and a foreground (legato) violin could really bring his out. But the BDT violin, well it sketches the outline of a kind of sweetness, but it just doesn't deliver on this promise of 'sweetness'.


----------



## idematoa (Mar 10, 2019)

*01 - Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit
02 - Spitfire Audio - London Contemporary Orchestra Textures
03 - Spitfire Audio - Symphonic Strings Evolutions*
*











*


----------



## idematoa (Apr 22, 2019)

*01 - Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit - Viola, Cello, Bass Clarinet
02 - Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolutions - A Simple start*
*








*


----------



## Banquet (Apr 23, 2019)

Here's something I did last month that used BDT for Violin, Cello, Cello Textures, Clarinet Chatter and Double Bass. There's also a smattering of Tundra and a little Joshua Bell Violin to give a bit of bite.


----------



## idematoa (Apr 27, 2019)

In the following order : _"Woodwind Evolutions, British Drama Toolkit, London Contemporary Orchestra Textures, Noire Pure Particles Engine" 

_


----------



## idematoa (Apr 29, 2019)

*Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit - Ensembles + Main*
*




*


----------



## idematoa (Apr 30, 2019)

*01 - UVI - Falcon
02 - Spitfire Audio - British Drama Toolkit*
*








*


----------



## idematoa (May 11, 2019)

*01 - SA - BDT - Ensembles - Main - Cello
02 - SA - Fragile String Evolutions - A fragile Start*
*








*


----------



## idematoa (May 18, 2019)

*01 - Spitfire Audio - BDT - Main
02 - Spitfire Audio - Fragile String Evolutions - A fragile Start
03 - Arturia - Arp 2600 - Non Return Point*
*











*


----------



## idematoa (Jun 21, 2019)

*01 - SA - BDT - Ensembles - Double Bass - Clarinet - Main
02 - SA - LCOT - Ethereal - Celestial Sand_KO - Celli - Shards Grid Time Machine_Albion Tundra - Nice Chord Sky Bellows_OACE - Chamber Grid*
*
*


----------



## idematoa (Aug 3, 2019)

*01 - SA - BDT - Ensembles & Main*
*02 - SA - HCT - Drowned Plucks - Earth Rumbles Grid
03 - SA - HCT - Dr Doomsday*
*04 - UVI - Augmented Piano - XFX Structural FX

 *


----------



## idematoa (Aug 24, 2019)

*SA - BDT - Main - Texture Woodwinds Loud Strings_Violin - Long Accented_Viola - Long Accented_Cello - Long Accented_Main - Texture Strings Loud Woodwinds_Main - Tutti Long Loud Strings 

*


----------

