# REVIEW: BBCSO Professional by Spitfire Audio



## bfreepro

EDIT: after posting, I found out _this library will be updated in the coming weeks and I WILL revise this review where necessary after the updates._ Contrary to what some people assume, I really do want to love this library/plug-in and am genuinely happy they are releasing these updates!

Original Post:
I held off on this too long but really felt the written reviews weren't nearly honest critical enough, leaving it to vloggers like Daniel James to report the real problems with the library. I prefer reading written reviews, so here you go. An honest, critical look from a "non-beginner" (who owns a TON of top notch libraries) on the BBCSO!









Review: Spitfire's BBC Symphony Orchestra (Reviewed from the perspective of a "non-beginner") — B. Free Productions, LLC


Hyped to death and touted as a revolution in orchestral sampling, does the BBCSO deliver?




www.bfreemusic.com





Verdict: 6/10
FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT. I RESPECT THE COMPANY AND THEIR AMBITION AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE MONUMENTAL HYPE AND PROMISES IT MADE INITIALLY.


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## Mike Fox

Thanks for the honest review!

I'll definitely be passing this one up. There was nothing about the sound that really did anything for me.


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## Mike Fox

Btw, do you have Abbey Road?

Just wondering what your thoughts were.


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## bfreepro

Mike Fox said:


> Btw, do you have Abbey Road?
> 
> Just wondering what your thoughts were.



Yes and that’s coming up as my next review, wanted to get this one out of the way first. IMO Abbey Road is infinitely more useful. Probably the most realistic samples I’ve heard to date. The thing I like about is, it’s an incredible foundation for sketching, then you can fill in the details with your own favorite libraries.The foundation of your track will have that beautiful Abbey Road ambience to it, which you can easily match with reverbs and careful placement. In my opinion it’s always easier to start with a broad strokes library recorded in a good space, then layer in the details. There’s no other library that has the same ambience and tone as abbey road, but it’s really easy to blend it all together when you build a track around it.


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## Mike Fox

bfreepro said:


> Yes and that’s coming up as my next review, wanted to get this one out of the way first. IMO Abbey Road is infinitely more useful. Probably the most realistic samples I’ve heard to date. The thing I like about is, it’s an incredible foundation for sketching, then you can fill in the details with your own favorite libraries.The foundation of your track will have that beautiful Abbey Road ambience to it, which you can easily match with reverbs and careful placement. In my opinion it’s always easier to start with a broad strokes library recorded in a good space, then layer in the details. There’s no other library that has the same ambience and tone as abbey road, but it’s really easy to blend it all together when you build a track around it.


Good to hear!

I've been pretty torn ever since i watched DJ's walkthru. The sounds are excellent, but all those clicks and pops are sketchy.

Have you experienced any cpu issues with it?


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## bfreepro

Mike Fox said:


> Good to hear!
> 
> I've been pretty torn ever since i watched DJ's walkthru. The sounds are excellent, but all those clicks and pops are sketchy.
> 
> Have you experienced any cpu issues with it?


None at all yet. I was really torn as well and wasn’t gonna get it. But I’m happy with it so far, even if it’s just for the full tutti orchestra section and the percussion. Having every single section loaded is only 9 instances, which is a cakewalk for my system compared to every section from BBC lol.


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## Mike Fox

bfreepro said:


> None at all yet. I was really torn as well and wasn’t gonna get it. But I’m happy with it so far, even if it’s just for the full tutti orchestra section and the percussion. Having every single section loaded is only 9 instances, which is a cakewalk for my system compared to every section from BBC lol.


Interesting. Makes me wonder why there's such mixed feedback when it comes to performance.


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## DS_Joost

I agree with this review. Last product I will ever get from Spitfire. Not because it is bad, it's not, but it feels rushed, is missing a lot of dynamic range (that brass is seriously weak, almost hilariously so) and overall there's just so many inconsistencies.

The problem with Spitfire is the hype. It's always the hype. The marketing. The huff and the puff and the pompousness of it all. It's the emperor's new clothes really. Marketing full of hot AIR (get it...). And they do this EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Worst part is, they could fix it, but no, Maida Vale done, on to Abbey Road... sigh. I should've known before buying it. Never again.


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## reids

And also, there is NO muted brass for BBC. This really is annoying as you mentioned with it's various inconsistencies. Appreciate the review as it is thorough, honest, and to the point. I do remember all the upset users having issues with the player plugin as well as their disappointment with the woodwinds and brass dynamics/legato. Many issues have still yet to be resolved.


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## DS_Joost

reids said:


> Many issues have still yet to be resolved.



And they won't. Trust me. I like to remind people that this is a 1000 euro product. 1000 euros. Take that in real slowly.


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## Traz

As I read your review it reminded me of the issues I was also having with the plugin on my pc that I was using earlier in the year with load times and such. 

But I just realized since I switched back over to Mac recently I haven't had any of those issues any more. 

On my pc i would enable tracks and have to wait a minute before I could use it and when opening a session with a lot of BBCSO tracks it could take 10 minutes 
or so before everything was finally loaded and playable.

Since being back on Mac I haven't had any problems with load times at all. I enable a track and it's instantly playable, as well as being able to open a whole 
session and being able to start right away without having to wait for everything to load anymore.

I wonder if those issues are pc related because I haven't had any frustrations with it ever since in terms of the performance.

I have plenty of other issues with it besides that though.


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## bfreepro

DS_Joost said:


> I agree with this review. Last product I will ever get from Spitfire. Not because it is bad, it's not, but it feels rushed, is missing a lot of dynamic range (that brass is seriously weak, almost hilariously so) and overall there's just so many inconsistencies.
> 
> The problem with Spitfire is the hype. It's always the hype. The marketing. The huff and the puff and the pompousness of it all. It's the emperor's new clothes really. Marketing full of hot AIR (get it...). And they do this EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
> 
> Worst part is, they could fix it, but no, Maida Vale done, on to Abbey Road... sigh. I should've known before buying it. Never again.



I agree they absolutely shot themselves in the foot with the hype on BBC. I feel it was a personal endeavor for them almost, sampling the prestigious BBC Orchestra... but they got greedy and cut corners and sold it as a definitive orchestra when really it’s a mediocre starting point. I don’t give a shit about 50 mic positions if the playability and actual samples suck 😂. I feel like it’s just them experimenting and having fun and forgetting about the actual customers. They pass it off like it’s gonna be so great for us, but really it’s great for them. I still respect the company and haven’t given up hope, and their new Abbey Road Library is a step in the right direction IMO. Still, I wish they would focus more on performance and new sampling techniques like Performance Samples than to sample the exact same instruments playing the exact same articulations... just in a new room lol.


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## bfreepro

Traz said:


> As I read your review it reminded me of the issues I was also having with the plugin on my pc that I was using earlier in the year with load times and such.
> 
> But I just realized since I switched back over to Mac recently I haven't had any of those issues any more.
> 
> On my pc i would enable tracks and have to wait a minute before I could use it and when opening a session with a lot of BBCSO tracks it could take 10 minutes
> or so before everything was finally loaded and playable.
> 
> Since being back on Mac I haven't had any problems with load times at all. I enable a track and it's instantly playable, as well as being able to open a whole
> session and being able to start right away without having to wait for everything to load anymore.
> 
> I wonder if those issues are pc related because I haven't had any frustrations with it ever since in terms of the performance.
> 
> I have plenty of other issues with it besides that though.



I wonder this too. Especially with the whole “full orchestral template” taking only like 12 gb of ram for Christian on logic and knowing Christian and Paul use macs, it’s kind of not surprising if things are better optimized for a Mac. It’s just, not possible on my system no matter what I do. No if’s ands or buts about it, loading every articulation will take way more RAM than that and it’s almost mind boggling to expect otherwise.


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## jzhwu

I bought the Core edition as my first orchestral library. For the price I paid (~$350?) I think it was well worth it. Not knowing what I wanted, having a one stop shop where the sections just blended well together out of the box kept things simple where I could focus on the music. 

Now that I spent well over 200 hours with this library, and at one point thought I'd even upgrade to pro during the holidays... I think it's clear there's just better stuff out there. I just spent the last couple of days replacing BBCSO sections in the piece I'm working on with new libraries I acquired. (CSS + CinePerc + BWW) Huge improvement sonically, and noticeably easier to work with. I guess you get what you pay for as those libraries combined cost twice as much as BBCSO Pro.

I don't regret buying Core though. There's parts of it that I can see myself continue using (some of the non-legato string articulations & perc). The one mic mix you get has a very beautiful, classic orchestral quality to it that I like. It's also comparatively light on ram which makes it more mobile.


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## bfreepro

jzhwu said:


> I bought the Core edition as my first orchestral library. For the price I paid (~$350?) I think it was well worth it. Not knowing what I wanted, having a one stop shop where the sections just blended well together out of the box kept things simple where I could focus on the music.
> 
> Now that I spent well over 200 hours with this library, and at one point thought I'd even upgrade to pro during the holidays... I think it's clear there's just better stuff out there. I just spent the last couple of days replacing BBCSO sections in the piece I'm working on with new libraries I acquired. (CSS + CinePerc + BWW) Huge improvement sonically, and noticeably easier to work with. I guess you get what you pay for as those libraries combined cost twice as much as BBCSO Pro.
> 
> I don't regret buying Core though. There's parts of it that I can see myself continue using (some of the non-legato string articulations & perc). The one mic mix you get has a very beautiful, classic orchestral quality to it that I like. It's also comparatively light on ram which makes it more mobile.


Yes I think the core edition would be a great place to start for beginners! I should have gotten the core version even if the only things I used from it where the strings and percussion, it would be worth it I think. However I commonly only used the default mic position and found it to definitely not be light on ram though, compared to the other libraries I own.


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## José Herring

Man, I was going to keep silent but while you do make some valid points honestly you're way off on many points and on your overall conclusion. 

Firstly, the player is just a player. As far as players go I wouldn't call it an advanced player, but it's fine for its purpose. The load times for me on a PC running BBCSO on SSD is near instantaeous so I don't know what your problem is other than you maybe forgot to exempt your drive from Windows Defender doing a scan of every file upon loading. (if you're on a PC). That's not the libraries fault, it's yours.

second, the Percussion while it does have some nice bits are probably the weakest section.

Third, The brass is for the most part fantastic. It doesn't go as loud but it was intended for a more orchestration crowd to learn balance rather than the bombast action movie crowd. 

Fourth, yes the solo horn bites ass. Can't believe they released that hunk of crap. Sounds like the player had his ass up the horn rather than his fist. That's one point for you.

And, lastly, the woodwinds are some of the best I've heard. Most naturally sounding woodwinds. My only guess is that you had the fader all the way up playing the loudest dynamic in which case on a woodwind it would start to overblow and you'll get wild inconsistencies of tone from note to note. Any woodwind patch would fall apart if you did that. If I can remember correctly I don't even think that VSL sampled that loudly and it's the prime reason they have such a good consistent tone. But, not having VSL I don't know if that is true.

Below is an example of BBCSO woodwinds. Improvised this in real time and then copied and pasted parts throughout the section. 

BBCSO is perhaps one of the best all in one packages for the price. Getting samples this quality with any other library is nearly impossible. EWHO is less expensive and more comprehensive yes but it's 10 years old now. BBCSO Core is an absolute bargain. The strings alone are worth the $500.


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## Traz

José Herring said:


> Man, I was going to keep silent but while you do make some valid points honestly you're way off on many points and on your overall conclusion.
> 
> Firstly, the player is just a player. As far as players go I wouldn't call it an advanced player, but it's fine for its purpose. The load times for me on a PC running BBCSO on SSD is near instantaeous so I don't know what your problem is other than you maybe forgot to exempt your drive from Windows Defender doing a scan of every file upon loading. (if you're on a PC). That's not the libraries fault, it's yours.
> 
> second, the Percussion while it does have some nice bits are probably the weakest section.
> 
> Third, The brass is for the most part fantastic. It doesn't go as loud but it was intended for a more orchestration crowd to learn balance rather than the bombast action movie crowd.
> 
> Fourth, yes the solo horn bites ass. Can't believe they released that hunk of crap. Sounds like the player had his ass up the horn rather than his fist. That's one point for you.
> 
> And, lastly, the woodwinds are some of the best I've heard. Most naturally sounding woodwinds. My only guess is that you had the fader all the way up playing the loudest dynamic in which case on a woodwind it would start to overblow and you'll get wild inconsistencies of tone from note to note. Any woodwind patch would fall apart if you did that. If I can remember correctly I don't even think that VSL sampled that loudly and it's the prime reason they have such a good consistent tone. But, not having VSL I don't know if that is true.
> 
> Below is an example of BBCSO woodwinds. Improvised this in real time and then copied and pasted parts throughout the section.
> 
> BBCSO is perhaps one of the best all in one packages for the price. Getting samples this quality with any other library is nearly impossible. EWHO is less expensive and more comprehensive yes but it's 10 years old now. BBCSO Core is an absolute bargain. The strings alone are worth the $500.


I agree about the woodwinds, It's my favorite part of the BBCSO library. I absolutely love the flutes.

I did have my drive exempt from Windows Defender when I was on pc and I still had long loading times. 

I think it just might be the nature of pc's being different from pc to pc in terms of specs and parts being 
used, some people may experience better results than others.


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## bfreepro

José Herring said:


> Man, I was going to keep silent but while you do make some valid points honestly you're way off on many points and on your overall conclusion.
> 
> Firstly, the player is just a player. As far as players go I wouldn't call it an advanced player, but it's fine for its purpose. The load times for me on a PC running BBCSO on SSD is near instantaeous so I don't know what your problem is other than you maybe forgot to exempt your drive from Windows Defender doing a scan of every file upon loading. (if you're on a PC). That's not the libraries fault, it's yours.
> 
> second, the Percussion while it does have some nice bits are probably the weakest section.
> 
> Third, The brass is for the most part fantastic. It doesn't go as loud but it was intended for a more orchestration crowd to learn balance rather than the bombast action movie crowd.
> 
> Fourth, yes the solo horn bites ass. Can't believe they released that hunk of crap. Sounds like the player had his ass up the horn rather than his fist. That's one point for you.
> 
> And, lastly, the woodwinds are some of the best I've heard. Most naturally sounding woodwinds. My only guess is that you had the fader all the way up playing the loudest dynamic in which case on a woodwind it would start to overblow and you'll get wild inconsistencies of tone from note to note. Any woodwind patch would fall apart if you did that. If I can remember correctly I don't even think that VSL sampled that loudly and it's the prime reason they have such a good consistent tone. But, not having VSL I don't know if that is true.
> 
> Below is an example of BBCSO woodwinds. Improvised this in real time and then copied and pasted parts throughout the section.
> 
> BBCSO is perhaps one of the best all in one packages for the price. Getting samples this quality with any other library is nearly impossible. EWHO is less expensive and more comprehensive yes but it's 10 years old now. BBCSO Core is an absolute bargain. The strings alone are worth the $500.


Thanks for chiming in. Remember, the review is just, ya know, my opinions. I most certainly have my sample drives excluded from my anti-virus, there's really no need to be condescending dude :D. If you load one patch, it doesn't take THAT long, but its nowhere near instantaneous. Multiply that by a bunch of instances for a full orchestra template, it takes much longer to load their player than Kontakt, so no, a player is NOT "just a player", as SINE and Synchron Player, as well as Kontakt, are SIGNIFICANTLY better optimized.

I'm not the only one who notices these jarring inconstancies, so it's really pretty audacious of you to come and say someone's opinions are "way off", just give your take and we can have a nice discussion about it. I own many woodwinds that sound SIGNIFICANTLY better than the BBCSO, I have absolutely no reason to make shit up here. Spitfire Symphonic, Berlin Woodwinds, VSL woods, all miles better and more natural sounding than BBCSO, and without the glaring lack of dynamic layers and shoddy legato.


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## bfreepro

José Herring said:


> Man, I was going to keep silent but while you do make some valid points honestly you're way off on many points and on your overall conclusion.
> 
> Firstly, the player is just a player. As far as players go I wouldn't call it an advanced player, but it's fine for its purpose. The load times for me on a PC running BBCSO on SSD is near instantaeous so I don't know what your problem is other than you maybe forgot to exempt your drive from Windows Defender doing a scan of every file upon loading. (if you're on a PC). That's not the libraries fault, it's yours.
> 
> second, the Percussion while it does have some nice bits are probably the weakest section.
> 
> Third, The brass is for the most part fantastic. It doesn't go as loud but it was intended for a more orchestration crowd to learn balance rather than the bombast action movie crowd.
> 
> Fourth, yes the solo horn bites ass. Can't believe they released that hunk of crap. Sounds like the player had his ass up the horn rather than his fist. That's one point for you.
> 
> And, lastly, the woodwinds are some of the best I've heard. Most naturally sounding woodwinds. My only guess is that you had the fader all the way up playing the loudest dynamic in which case on a woodwind it would start to overblow and you'll get wild inconsistencies of tone from note to note. Any woodwind patch would fall apart if you did that. If I can remember correctly I don't even think that VSL sampled that loudly and it's the prime reason they have such a good consistent tone. But, not having VSL I don't know if that is true.
> 
> Below is an example of BBCSO woodwinds. Improvised this in real time and then copied and pasted parts throughout the section.
> 
> BBCSO is perhaps one of the best all in one packages for the price. Getting samples this quality with any other library is nearly impossible. EWHO is less expensive and more comprehensive yes but it's 10 years old now. BBCSO Core is an absolute bargain. The strings alone are worth the $500.


Also, remember, I clearly state in my review this is the opinion of someone who owns a lot and is not a beginner, and I even say that it's a great value. Doesn't excuse all the sloppiness and it's impossible not to compare it with everything else I own, which it absolutely falls short.


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## José Herring

And Here's an example of BBCSO brass. Yes it does strain on the higher dynamics but it actually does extremely well in the lower to middle dynamics. (don't pay attention to the other instruments. I just worked exclusively on the brass).



https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/krytpon-bbcsor-mp3.39388/


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## Adam Takacs

I love the library but I also experience the performance issues. For example loading.. Very slow.
Running from 860EVO... I did everything the support suggested, including turning off virus scanning to the BBCSO directory...


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## José Herring

bfreepro said:


> Also, remember, I clearly state in my review this is the opinion of someone who owns a lot and is not a beginner, and I even say that it's a great value. Doesn't excuse all the sloppiness and it's impossible not to compare it with everything else I own, which it absolutely falls short.


I hear you but pardon me for saying so. I did reviews for a while and unless the product failed utterly I would never recommend outright that nobody buy it. That's beyond an honest critique. It's just flat out a false statement to me. If somebody only had $1000 to spend, I'd put BBCSO near the top of that list. It's easily the biggest bargain that will lead to professional results. 

Look man, I don't mean to come down too hard on you and I do respect that it is your opinion, but having done reviews I always tried to work a library in a piece to see how it all hangs together to make music. It appears from your review and I could be mistaken that you just ran through the patches in kind of a haphazard way didn't like something about it, then panned the entire product. The strings alone which you give 9 out of 10 are worth the price of the product even IF you didn't like anything else. But, there's a lot to love in BBCSO to suggest that people completely dismiss it. If you had just left it at your observations I would have just agreed to disagree but here this product is going to go on Black Friday sale and those with limited resources might read your review pass it up and be missing out on a total and complete bargain.

So your review being timed when it is, is not only mean spirited but just comes to the wrong conclusion.


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## bfreepro

José Herring said:


> I hear you but pardon me for saying so. I did reviews for a while and unless the product failed utterly I would never recommend outright that nobody buy it. That's beyond an honest critique. It's just flat out a false statement to me. If somebody only had $1000 to spend, I'd put BBCSO near the top of that list. It's easily the biggest bargain that will lead to professional results.
> 
> Look man, I don't mean to come down too hard on you and I do respect that it is your opinion, but having done reviews I always tried to work a library in a piece to see how it all hangs together to make music. It appears from your review and I could be mistaken that you just ran through the patches in kind of a haphazard way didn't like something about it, then panned the entire product. The strings alone which you give 9 out of 10 are worth the price of the product even IF you didn't like anything else. But, there's a lot to love in BBCSO to suggest that people completely dismiss it. If you had just left it at your observations I would have just agreed to disagree but here this product is going to go on Black Friday sale and those with limited resources might read your review pass it up and be missing out on a total and complete bargain.
> 
> So your review being timed when it is, is not only mean spirited but just comes to the wrong conclusion.


You are completely putting words in my mouth here man. I have done these reviews for a long time. People come to me and appreciate the fact I am honest. I did not just play through the library "haphazardly", as I clearly state in my review as well... I literally used this as my main orchestral library for MONTHS and found it simply paled in comparison to what I had been using. I never state that no one should buy it, you completely ignore the positive things I say about it, and you also ignore the many times I state WHY I have come to these conclusions. Also, to state that someone's review "comes to the wrong conclusion" is ridiculous. It's a review. It comes to a DIFFERENT conclusion than you came to, but it's nowhere near being "wrong". I respect your opinions and appreciate the conversation, but seriously, read it again. I gave it 6/10. Saying I "panned the entire product" is honestly bullshit. You say you respect others opinions, but I don't think you actually do lol. Which is fine, but come on man, we can have this discussion without putting others down and making these wild assumptions. I tried to love this product and implemented it in my work for months, using it on many professional projects. I even state I love the percs and strings, and say it's a great value. A 6/10 is a 3/5, this is not a bad rating. Again, I own a significant amount of libraries, and this one simply can't keep up. It's not mean spirited, never once did I say it's garbage, that it sucks, that no one should buy it, I can't believe you'd say my review is "mean spirited", that honestly blows my mind, especially with the praise I give to certain elements.



José Herring said:


> If you had just left it at your observations I would have just agreed to disagree but here this product is going to go on Black Friday sale and those with limited resources might read your review pass it up and be missing out on a total and complete bargain.



Honestly, this is exactly what I did, is simply give my observations. Look how many reviews this library has gotten, 10/10, 5/5, stuff like that. So I am here wishing someone had been honest with me before I bought it, and given some realistic contrast to the perfect 10 reviews. That's all. There are PLENTY of reviews and opinions on this library. This is one coming from a very specific viewpoint and I go out of my way to make sure this is clear.


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## MGdepp

José Herring said:


> I hear you but pardon me for saying so. I did reviews for a while and unless the product failed utterly I would never recommend outright that nobody buy it. That's beyond an honest critique. It's just flat out a false statement to me. If somebody only had $1000 to spend, I'd put BBCSO near the top of that list. It's easily the biggest bargain that will lead to professional results.
> 
> Look man, I don't mean to come down too hard on you and I do respect that it is your opinion, but having done reviews I always tried to work a library in a piece to see how it all hangs together to make music. It appears from your review and I could be mistaken that you just ran through the patches in kind of a haphazard way didn't like something about it, then panned the entire product. The strings alone which you give 9 out of 10 are worth the price of the product even IF you didn't like anything else. But, there's a lot to love in BBCSO to suggest that people completely dismiss it. If you had just left it at your observations I would have just agreed to disagree but here this product is going to go on Black Friday sale and those with limited resources might read your review pass it up and be missing out on a total and complete bargain.
> 
> So your review being timed when it is, is not only mean spirited but just comes to the wrong conclusion.


So, you are doing a review about the review? ... and it looks devastating!  Sorry, but then I must chime in to tell that my experience with BBCSO is about 90% as described in this review. I guess, different people have different experiences. But IMO it is really stupid to spit on someone else’s shared opinion - may it be in the form of a simple post or a review. And that is especially true when a lot of people had similar experiences with the library and also the company in general.


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## erikradbo

Interesting. I surely won't be getting it, since I'm all covered, but the sonical quality of the BBCSO has tempted me. Mattia Chiappa did a gorgeous piece with BBCSO and sent over the project files last year, so I made a comparison with CSS/CSB/BWW/HOP. And I must say BBCSO is still tempting for that cohesiveness sonically, which I haven't heard from any other library. I guess for some people that makes it worth the glitches and inconsistencies.

Here is the comparison between the projects. No obvious winner but very different sounds:






Closure - BBCSO Demo


Such a wonderful composition Mattia. The theme is very beautiful. Should feature on a screen hopefully soon!




vi-control.net





Edit: CSB of course, not CSW, don't wanna send people into hearth fibrillation...


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## José Herring

Look we'll have to agree to disagree and move on. Like I said I respect the original opinion. I personally haven't had nearly as many problems as this and every library I own has its "quirks" that drive one batty. I just spent 3 weeks trying to get Century brass to sound decent and when I finally cracked that nut the library is fantastic. 

I equally spent weeks with BBCSO and quite frankly it's a hard library to work with but saying it falls short of other libraries is factually incorrect. It has different quirks than other libraries. 

EWHO when it was new went through the same phase, people panned the player, people panned the library on and on page after page. 10 years later it's universally praised as a great library. It takes time to learn to use a library effectively. 

I'm keying off a generally negative tone in the review which wasn't warranted. And, yes, i do recognized that there is a lot of good mentioned as well. I just disagree with a lot of the conclusions. But that's okay. I can disagree and say so and not in any way lose any kind of respect for the writer.


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## Bluemount Score

José Herring said:


> And Here's an example of BBCSO brass. Yes it does strain on the higher dynamics but it actually does extremely well in the lower to middle dynamics. (don't pay attention to the other instruments. I just worked exclusively on the brass).
> 
> 
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/krytpon-bbcsor-mp3.39388/


I like that!!!


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## Traz

Personally If I was to give a rating for BBCSO I would say its an 8.5/10.

It's still what I primarily choose to use for the most part.

My main issues with it are some inconsistencies and strange noises that pop out here and there on certain notes, as well as some wild phase issues 
with sul tasto on all of the strings and especially in the violas. Honestly, I'm not sure if maybe that's just the nature of sul tasto though.

I've also struggled with the brass but maybe I should try and revisit them again after hearing the example from @José Herring.

I'm still mainly just a student trying to find the meaning of life though, and don't have much experience with a whole lot of other libraries to be fair.


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## José Herring

Traz said:


> I'm still mainly just a student trying to find the meaning of life though, and don't have much experience with a whole lot of other libraries to be fair.



The meaning to life is a whole lot more important than bickering about sample libraries. So take your time, find your meaning, the libraries will be here.


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## bfreepro

Why not both!? "Try to be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations. And bicker with your colleagues about sample libraries"


----------



## MGdepp

There is some fascinating spirit on this forum, that everybody is speaking freely about libraries, including bashing them, but as soon as that is about a SA library someone will get triggered by it and all of a sudden this is no more subjective but all about facts - and these facts certainly point in one direction only ...

Speaking about facts: the Hollywood series is a good example, indeed! Today, Play works pretty much excellent. And that is great to all who grabbed those libraries for a penny or two in the recent years. But what about the early adaptors who bought those for thousands of bucks? Wouldn’t it be nicer in retrospect to have gotten a nicely working Kontakt version, back then? I heard from some people who could make it work back then, but all of them built dedicated PCs exclusively for Play - something that was not necessary for Kontakt or VSL libraries. So, users payed the bill for EW going with their own player WAY ahead of time. I was not one of them, so, I am not mad at them or anything. But I sure remember the thousands of complaints back then.

It is pretty similar for all new libraries released with the SA player. It is simply a fact that there are a whole lot of features missing that make the same samples much more usable in
Kontakt. No time stretching, no multi-timbral mode, no background loading, less stability, endless authorization issues, etc ... I suppose, SA player is not equally a mess as Play was in the beginning, but for the time the player is in use, little seems to have happened to include more features. Just for comparison: Sine is much newer and already added lots of features that SAs player cannot do. Even more, with Synchron player. It can’t get much more objective, then comparing the features of a player, can it? And in the end, it is not ONLY about the samples, but also about how they are provided.

And then there is sound, articulations, legato, programming, ... much of it most certainly subjective up to a point. I suppose, if you would do a count of how many noises and editing mistakes are to be found there vs the competition, you could also find some objective criteria, but in the end it doesn’t matter, as some people will love those noises for whatever reason.

So, if you want to go with objectivity, let’s stick to what is facts: tell me what is objectively better about their player? Does it have anything that Kontakt or Synchron player or Sine doesn’t? I suppose, it has a really large knob on the interface that looks rather stylish.


----------



## Mark Kouznetsov

I love Spitfire's sound but their libraries have the same problems over and over again. Rarely fully fixed. Still, nowhere near 8Dio bad.


----------



## Rory

I read @bfreepro’s blog post opinion, but I’m having trouble making sense of it as a matter of basic arithmetic.

I’m trying to figure out how an average score of 7.75/10 for the strings, woodwinds, percussion and brass becomes an overall score of 6/10.

There are two considerations in his blog for which he doesn’t state his score out of 10. The first is value for money. On this, he says that the library, at US$1,000, is an “*incredible value*“ (his boldface), at least for those starting out. At the Black Friday price of $600, I guess he needs to find a new superlative.

The second unstated score is for the Spitfire App. About this, he says (his boldface and caps) “Here is where my biggest complaints come with this library. *I’ll be honest, I do NOT like the plugin*.”

As a matter of basic arithmetic, the only way to get to a score of 6/10 is to give the player a negative score of at least -1/10, in which case the score for the library being an “*incredible value*” must be 0/10. If the score for value for money goes up from zero, the negative score for the app must also go up.

The complaints that @bfreepro makes about the Spitfire App should be experienced by every user of BBC Pro with a computer configuration similar to his. There are many users of BBC Pro on this forum. People with similar configurations are not typically reporting the same problems. In other words, @bfreepro’s experience with the App is not the norm. In the case of both the Spitfire App and SINE, some users like these new players and some don‘t. Apparently @bfreepro doesn’t.


----------



## peladio

bfreepro said:


> Verdict: 6/10
> FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT. I RESPECT THE COMPANY AND THEIR AMBITION AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE MONUMENTAL HYPE AND PROMISES IT MADE INITIALLY.



Completely agree..I'd give it 5/10 or 6/10 as well..it's refreshing to see honest reviews like yours and DJ's in sea of shills and NFRs here..

It's very inconsistently sampled and anemic washy sounding all in all..but sound is subjective

Hollywood Orchestra Diamond is 1/3 of the price and light years ahead..but that the power of good marketing I guess..


----------



## peladio

MGdepp said:


> There is some fascinating spirit on this forum, that everybody is speaking freely about libraries, including bashing them, but as soon as that is about a SA library someone will get triggered by it and all of a sudden this is no more subjective but all about facts - and these facts certainly point in one direction only ...



Yeah that cultish brand worship annoys me to no end..


----------



## bfreepro

Rory said:


> I read @bfreepro’s blog post opinion, but I’m having trouble making sense of it as a matter of basic arithmetic.
> 
> I’m trying to figure out how an average score of 7.75/10 for the strings, woodwinds, percussion and brass becomes an overall score of 6/10.
> 
> There are two considerations in his blog for which he doesn’t state his score out of 10. The first is value for money. On this, he says that the library, at US$1,000, is an “*incredible value*“ (his boldface), at least for those starting out. At the Black Friday price of $600, I guess he needs to find a new superlative.
> 
> The second unstated score is for the Spitfire App. About this, he says (his boldface and caps) “Here is where my biggest complaints come with this library. *I’ll be honest, I do NOT like the plugin*.”
> 
> As a matter of basic arithmetic, the only way to get to a score of 6/10 is to give the player a negative score of at least -1/10, in which case the score for the library being an “*incredible value*” must be 0/10. If the score for value for money goes up from zero, the negative score for the app must also go up.
> 
> The complaints that @bfreepro makes about the Spitfire App should be experienced by every user of BBC Pro with a computer configuration similar to his. There are many users of BBC Pro on this forum. People with similar configurations are not typically reporting the same problems. In other words, @bfreepro’s experience with the App is not the norm. In the case of both the Spitfire App and SINE, some users like these new players and some don‘t. Apparently @bfreepro doesn’t.


I actually LOVE sine player. It actually works well and is super efficient, multi timbral, so many features that the Spitfire plug is missing. Regarding my score, what good is a nice sounding sample library if it’s actually a massive pain in the ass to use? Hence the 6/10. Of course the score is gonna get docked when I've had such a frustrating time with the plugin and have many other, fully efficient and stable plugins which work every time. Why would I treat this one company with kid gloves and not speak about the elephant in the room? That would be a dishonest review. Which is also why I graded each instrument section separately, to be fair with how it actually sounds. This is kind of strange and alarming how personal everyone is making this and goes with what @MGdepp said earlier. I’m just one dude with a shitload of libraries and some experience with writing music and reviews professionally who gets tired of professional reviews that are actually just extended advertisements for products. I give full context of where I'm coming from and why I am critical of the things I mention.

PS You can address your comments to me, my name is Brian and would be happy to discuss . This is my thread after all, so addressing someone in the third person constantly feels a bit strange lol


----------



## ysnyvz

Spitfire always ask for people's consent and announce before something is coming. They always get way too excited during release, but they can never satisfy people's needs fully.


----------



## Rory

bfreepro said:


> Regarding my score, what good is a nice sounding sample library if it’s actually a massive pain in the ass to use? Hence the 6/10. Which is also why I graded each instrument section separately, to be fair with how it actually sounds. ... I’m just one dude ... who gets tired of professional reviews that are actually just extended advertisements for products.



You are the one who decided to use scores out of ten. The problem is that your "score" doesn't survive examination as a matter of grade school arithmetic. See post #33. More importantly, other users of the Spitfire App and BBC SO are not typically reporting the same problems that you say you are experiencing. Yours appears to be an outlier experience.

In your blog post and in your posts in this thread, you have now tried to distinguish your review from others, on the ground your review is honest, six times. You have yet to provide a single example of a dishonest BBC SO review. Let's have some examples. Absent any, one is left with the impression that you mean, by dishonest, anyone who disagrees with you.


----------



## bfreepro

Rory said:


> You are the one who decided to use scores out of ten. The problem is that your "score" doesn't survive examination as a matter of grade school arithmetic. More importantly, other users of the Spitfire App are not typically reporting the same problems that you say you are experiencing. Yours appears to be an outlier experience.
> 
> In your blog post and in your posts in this thread, you have now tried to distinguish your review from others, on the ground your review is honest, six times. You have yet to provide a single example of a dishonest BBC SO review. Let's have some examples. Absent any, one is left with the impression that you mean, by dishonest, anyone who disagrees with you.


Reviews are opinions. I am giving MY honest opinion, which may differ greatly from other's honest opinions. That's why I say, I'm just one dude. Saying I'm giving my honest opinion never has and never will mean others are dishonest. It means I am writing from a specific viewpoint, my own, which is also a view point many others share: someone who owns a bunch of amazing libraries, and wondering if the BBCSO can live up to the hype. To me, it doesn't. Doesn't mean it sucks or that everyone else is a liar. My opinion is, obviously, this library is NOWHERE near a 9 or 10/10 from reviews like MusicTech, Sound on Sound, stuff like that. Oh well. I'm not gonna sit here and argue over what I think about something, I stand by what I wrote. Hope you have a good day!


----------



## Rory

bfreepro said:


> Reviews are opinions. I am giving MY honest opinion, which may differ greatly from other's honest opinions. That's why I say, I'm just one dude. Saying I'm giving my honest opinion never has and never will mean others are dishonest.



That does not square with this statement:

"I’m just one dude ... who gets tired of professional reviews that are actually just extended advertisements for products."

The fact is, between your blog post and this thread, you have suggested no less than six times that your review is different from others because it is honest.

More importantly, your "score" for this library doesn't stand up as a matter of basic arithmetic, and it is clearly based almost entirely on an atypical experience with the Spitfire App.


----------



## bfreepro

Rory said:


> You are the one who decided to use scores out of ten. The problem is that your "score" doesn't survive examination as a matter of grade school arithmetic. See post #33.


See post #37, " Of course the score is gonna get docked when I've had such a frustrating time with the plugin and have many other, fully efficient and stable plugins which work every time. Why would I treat this one company with kid gloves and not speak about the elephant in the room? That would be a dishonest review. "


----------



## bfreepro

Rory said:


> The does not square with this statement:
> 
> "I’m just one dude ... who gets tired of professional reviews that are actually just extended advertisements for products."
> 
> The fact is, between your blog post and this thread, you have suggested no less than six times that your review is different from others because it is honest.


Ok dude. Have a nice day


----------



## Markrs

I would say you weighed your score based on the areas that were most important to you. Nothing wrong with that in my view, weighting is common when evaluating things.


----------



## bfreepro

Markrs said:


> I would say you weighed your score based on the areas that were most important to you. Nothing wrong with that in my view, weighting is common when evaluating things.


100% correct!


----------



## Markrs

I also think no one has to justify a review. In the end it is all just opinion which is highly subjective. Though it is good to hear different views on the same product. So this thread has been useful to me


----------



## Rory

Markrs said:


> I would say you weighed your score based on the areas that were most important to you. Nothing wrong with that in my view, weighting is common when evaluating things.



The person who wrote this "review" chose to use the common scale of one to ten. It really shouldn't be necessary to explain this, but Wikipedia says this about such ratings:

"The scale has 10 as a maximum score, as a denotation of exceptionally high quality or of another attribute, usually accompanying 1 as its minimum, although some common variants have a minimum of 0."

The score for the samples was 7.75/10. The score for value for money is not transparent. Despite saying that the price of US$1000 is an "incredible value", at least for beginners, let's put that at 5/10. Let's also ignore that fact that he started his thread the day before the library will go on sale for $600.

This implies a score, also not transparent, for the Spitfire App of -6/10. Give value for money 8/10, and the score for the App goes to -9/10. If "incredible value" equals 9/10, we are, believe it or not, at -10/10 for the App.

There are two problems. The first is that scoring on a scale of one to ten does not normally include negative values. Wikipedia calls doing so "hyperbole". Personally, I have never seen anyone do it.

Secondly, as you suggest, the only way to make any sense of this "review" is to say that the evaluation of the criteria was weighted, and that the unstated, non-transparent score for the Spitfire App swamped everything else. @bfreepro does not say that in his "review".

This explanation does not address the basic problem, which is that his claims about problems with the App are such that many, if not most, of the users of BBC Pro on this forum should be making the same claims. As a simple matter of fact, that is not happening.


----------



## jzhwu

Lol some people need to stay off forums and write more music. Myself included.


----------



## Markrs

jzhwu said:


> Lol some people need to stay off forums and write more music. Myself included.


To be honest that is probably most of us! 😂


----------



## Traz

Rory said:


> The person who wrote this opinion chose to use the common scale of one to ten. This is what Wikipedia says about such ratings:
> 
> "The scale has 10 as a maximum score, as a denotation of exceptionally high quality or of another attribute, usually accompanying 1 as its minimum, although some common variants have a minimum of 0."
> 
> The score for the samples was 7.75/10. The score for value for money is not transparent. Despite saying that the price of US$1000 is an "incredible value", at least for beginners, let's put that at 5/10. Let's also ignore that fact that he started his thread the day before the library will go on sale for $600.
> 
> This implies a score, also not transparent, for the Spitfire App of -6/10. Give value for money 8/10, and the score for the App goes to -9/10.
> 
> There are two problems. The first is that scoring on a scale of one to ten does not normally include negative values. Wikipedia calls it hyperbole. Personally, I have never seen anyone do it.
> 
> Secondly, as you suggest, the only way to make any sense of this "review" is to say that the evaluation of the criteria was weighted, and that the unstated, non-transparent score for the Spitfire App swamped everything else. @bfreepro does not say that in his "review".
> 
> This explanation does not address the basic problem, which is that his claims about problems with the App are such that many of the users of BBC Pro on this forum should be making the same claims. As a simple matter of fact, they are not.


Why are you the way that you are?


----------



## Markrs

Traz said:


> Why are you the way that you are?


Now that is a deep question 😁


----------



## bfreepro

Markrs said:


> I also think no one has to justify a review. In the end it is all just opinion which is highly subjective. Though it is good to hear different views on the same product. So this thread has been useful to me


I welcome differing viewpoints! However I really despise the toxicity, condescension, etc. It does us all a disservice and contributes nothing to the conversation. Thanks to those of you who have been constructive and had a civil discussion like actual human beings. Enjoy the holidays!


----------



## JoelS

Mark_Kouznetsov said:


> I love Spitfire's sound but their libraries have the same problems over and over again. Rarely fully fixed. Still, nowhere near 8Dio bad.


I just bought the Century Strings and Brass 2.0 updates from 8Dio. The updates addressed the issues I had with the initial releases, and added some really nice new stuff. For me, at least, they are 'fully fixed.' I also updated a few of their other libraries that had newer versions released. 8Dio has offered significant updates to a lot of their libraries. I guess there's a debate to be had over 'how long should it take to update major products and is it bad to offer new products in the interim,' but that's going to vary a lot for different businesses operating under different conditions. And this is a BBCSO thread anyway.

I also bought BBCSO Pro, on pre-order. I have mixed feelings on it. My main complaint about it is that I have not yet had a moment where I felt BBCSO would be the best, most expressive choice available to me for any solo instrument or section it covers. It often feels too 'tame' for me. If all the instruments had a little extra oomph, with the capacity to deliver that burst of energy in the moments it is needed, I'd be a whole lot happier with it.

My other big issue is that despite BBCSO existing in a new, custom player, it does very little to advance the art of making instruments playable. Its approach is very conventional, defaulting to keyswitched patches. For a 'revolution' in VIs, my preference is for someone to merge the beautiful tone/room of a venue like Maida Vale or Abbey Road with the playability of Audio Modeling, Performance Samples, or Embertone's instruments. To me, Spitfire's performance legatos are good, but not great. OT's Capsule is more customizable (I hope they bring all of that into SINE). Virharmonic does an incredible job with their solo strings. If you gave me the full BBCSO in a system like Virharmonic's, that would be a dream, and would revolutionize my orchestral composing. The day I no longer have to Frankenstein-stitch articulations together will be a great day.

I've felt buyer's remorse on BBCSO Pro, but I also haven't taken the time (or had the time) to use it in its best context yet, and I feel that it could shine in certain cases. Kind of wish I could just trade it straight-up for Abbey Road, though (even if that, too, has its limits).

A colleague of mine recently did ask me what the best path into VIs was for someone starting from zero. Of course, it varies depending on the style of music you'll primarily compose. There's a ton of competition in the 'affordable all-in-one' market. OT's Berlin Inspire sounds more dynamic and expressive to me, based on demos (never used it). Audio Imperia's Nucleus also sounds great and would be a strong choice, especially on BF sale. That was my colleague's choice. EW's Composer Cloud also seems like a very strong choice for a beginner. BBCSO is a different sound entirely, and has its merits, but imo it is not an instrument for all occasions.


----------



## Rory

JoelS said:


> I also bought BBCSO Pro, on pre-order. I have mixed feelings on it. My main complaint about it is that I have not yet had a moment where I felt BBCSO would be the best, most expressive choice available to me for any solo instrument or section it covers. It often feels too 'tame' for me. If all the instruments had a little extra oomph, with the capacity to deliver that burst of energy in the moments it is needed, I'd be a whole lot happier with it.
> 
> 
> A colleague of mine recently did ask me what the best path into VIs was for someone starting from zero. Of course, it varies depending on the style of music you'll primarily compose. ... BBCSO is a different sound entirely, and has its merits, but imo it is not an instrument for all occasions.



In the next few days, a lot of people will be deciding whether to purchase BBC SO. I think that your post, especially what I've quoted above, does a very nice job of setting out a particular perspective.

I don't think that there is a virtual orchestra in existence that does everything or fulfils everyone's preferences. As you suggest, choice of orchestral sample library depends, in part, on what kind of music one wants to compose. BBC SO is right for some, and probably the wrong choice for others. For example, Spitfire's Hans Zimmer Percussion sounds different from its Joby Burgess Percussion and Frank Ricotta Mallets. As a matter of personal taste, I preferred, and purchased, the latter two libraries. I don't doubt that there are many others who prefer the Hans Zimmer library.

Your last paragraph talks about people starting from zero. On this, I think that Spitfire is alone in the educational resources it offers. I'm not even talking about the free LABS libraries and the free BBC SO Discover. As valuable as it is to beginners, I am also not talking about the BBC SO template that Christian Henson and Jake Jackson developed, now available for the main DAWs. Between Christian Henson, Paul Thompson, Jake Jackson, Homay Schmitz, Louis Rugg, Oliver Weder and special guests, Spitfire publishes a wealth of video and other material of real assistance to beginning and intermediate composers. Nobody else is doing this. If the company is earning a competitive advantage, this is central to that advantage.


----------



## MGdepp

Rory said:


> In the next few days, a lot of people will be deciding whether to purchase BBC SO. I think that your post, especially what I've quoted above, does a very nice job of setting out a particular perspective.


So, you are working for Spitfire and worry they will not make enough cash during BF? Otherwise, I do not get what your problem is ... I don't remember the OP going over all the post praising the library to the heavens and complaining about that. In fact, it is ALWAYS the other way around. Get over it! Some people may hate what you love ... just accept that!


----------



## DS_Joost

MGdepp said:


> So, you are working for Spitfire and worry they will not make enough cash during BF? Otherwise, I do not get what your problem is ... I don't remember the OP going over all the post praising the library to the heavens and complaining about that. In fact, it is ALWAYS the other way around. Get over it! Some people may hate what you love ... just accept that!



Yup. If going by this forums standards, Majestica isn't a good library at all. Having just bought it, I'd say you all need to get those corks outta ya ears!


----------



## Mike Fox

José Herring said:


> And Here's an example of BBCSO brass. Yes it does strain on the higher dynamics but it actually does extremely well in the lower to middle dynamics. (don't pay attention to the other instruments. I just worked exclusively on the brass).
> 
> 
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/krytpon-bbcsor-mp3.39388/


While I think you did a great job arranging that piece, the brass sounds pretty lackluster to my ears, especially at the lower dynamics.

Abbey, on the other hand sounds light years ahead of this.


----------



## AndyP

I will add my mustard:

I find that the review reflects a lot of what I see. The strings and the woodwinds are the parts I like best, especially the strings.
Percussion is okay, but not outstanding. Brass, if it doesn't go beyond the middle dynamic range is okay. The solo horn is actually ... meeeeh. I find the legatos sometimes like this and sometimes like that.

Basically I find the reduced pre offer price a fair offer. About the marketing of Spitfire I have talked about in the BBCSO thread and I don't want to repeat that here, except that I consider the library to be the most exaggerated hyped library. 

Now I find that you can argue about many things. Arguing about a preview makes no sense. If the person who wrote the preview feels that way, then it is absolutely ok. If the reader of the preview sees it differently, then that's fine too!

For me, the state of a library is mostly shown by how and how often I use it. And BBCSO Pro is one of the dust catchers. Despite the template, I prefer to work with other libraries whose player software I like more and which support my workflow more like: Synchron Player, Kontakt and even Play! 

The concept of the Spitfire Player is not a complete one. Using 2 articulations at the same time is cool, but only if I can automate this feature. I've never done it without the option (or alt) key on my computer keyboard. And if these articulations are not on the same page and I have to turn the pages, it gets confusing. 
Activate/deactivate articulations: Why not like in the Kontakt Libriaries at the articulation? Why in another place?
Just as an example.

The time I invest to get a setup and result that I have in mind takes too long and I end up exchanging many instruments for others from other libraries. In the end, only a fraction of the full orchestra is left and the hype about the full orchestra with its unique surround sound and 20 mic positions is gone.

I still hope that Spitfire is working on the "solvable" problem of the BBCSO. But it leaves a bad feeling when new orchestral libraries are released within a year and the problems of the existing libraries are solved at a snail's pace. 
I'm supposed to pay a lot of extra dollars to get the Aperture Orchestra (the Aperture strings were withheld from pre-sale buyers)... Yes, I'd like to, but not at the conditions Spitfire is calling for.

Unfortunately, Spitfire has lost a lot of credit with me and the bottom line is that I'm avoiding the marketing hype and don't buy anything from them anymore, even though there are great new libraries. I also have my principles and can live with them, no matter how much someone wants to tell me that I should find it good.

Objective and subjective opinions are interdependent.


----------



## José Herring

Mike Fox said:


> While I think you did a great job arranging that piece, the brass sounds pretty lackluster to my ears, especially at the lower dynamics.
> 
> Abbey, on the other hand sounds light years ahead of this.


Yeah, just working with Abbey today on a new piece. OMG. 

But, I still find BBCSO a contender. But Abbey OMG. I don't even think real brass sounds that good.


----------



## José Herring

bfreepro said:


> I welcome differing viewpoints! However I really despise the toxicity, condescension, etc. It does us all a disservice and contributes nothing to the conversation. Thanks to those of you who have been constructive and had a civil discussion like actual human beings. Enjoy the holidays!


I stand by what i said but I do want to offer an apology. After reading it again when not dead tired I realized that the article doesn't come across as harsh as I initially thought. 

We all have our bad moments and last night was probably as bad as I get.


----------



## Kevperry777

By the way, in case you missed it on another thread....updated content has been listed on the spitfire pages for BBCSO.

Confirmed- For example...Pro is getting 35gb of muted brass content.


----------



## Rory

Kevperry777 said:


> By the way, in case you missed it on another thread....updated content has been listed on the spitfire pages for BBCSO. For example...core alone is getting 35gb of updates.



Yes, details and discussion about what this means starting with this post tonight in the main BBC SO thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/spitfire-audio-“this-is-london-calling”-bbc-symphony-orchestra.84345/post-4695572


----------



## Scalms

bfreepro said:


> I held off on this too long but really felt the written reviews weren't nearly honest critical enough, leaving it to vloggers like Daniel James to report the real problems with the library. I prefer reading written reviews, so here you go. An honest, critical look from a "non-beginner" (who owns a TON of top notch libraries) on the BBCSO!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review: Spitfire's BBC Symphony Orchestra (Reviewed from the perspective of a "non-beginner") — B. Free Productions, LLC
> 
> 
> Hyped to death and touted as a revolution in orchestral sampling, does the BBCSO deliver?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bfreemusic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Verdict: 6/10
> FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT. I RESPECT THE COMPANY AND THEIR AMBITION AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE MONUMENTAL HYPE AND PROMISES IT MADE INITIALLY.


Honestly, I thought your review was very good, not overly judgmental or harsh but an honest and fair assessment, so thanks for taking the time. I don't have the library (slightly drawn to it even with its limitations), but it's good to see the various perspectives. I too have trouble with the player. I'm one of the few who really likes the GUI, but I get very many pops and crackles, I've just come to the realization that I've got to freeze down everything. Anyway, I hope Spitfire makes this number one priority to optimize and fix it.


----------



## szczaw

Rory said:


> The problem is that your "score" doesn't survive examination as a matter of grade school arithmetic.



Huh ? It doesn't have to. It's not an equation to be solved, and we're not in a classroom. Wtf ?


----------



## Sean

Not sure why some people are getting so mad about this review? He even recommends it to beginners, it's not like he says stay away at all costs. It seems like a good review to me.

@Rory You really shouldn't get so worked up over an arbitrary number some guy came up with to score some 0s and 1s that you download on your computer. Sure maybe the math doesn't quite add up but is it really the hostility? Maybe he just felt like the library is slightly above average, and gave it a 6/10. Who cares how exactly he came up with the number.


----------



## bfreepro

Kevperry777 said:


> By the way, in case you missed it on another thread....updated content has been listed on the spitfire pages for BBCSO. For example...core alone is getting 35gb of updates.


Awesome!


José Herring said:


> I stand by what i said but I do want to offer an apology. After reading it again when not dead tired I realized that the article doesn't come across as harsh as I initially thought.
> 
> We all have our bad moments and last night was probably as bad as I get.


It’s all good. I understand!


----------



## Rory

Kevperry777 said:


> By the way, in case you missed it on another thread....updated content has been listed on the spitfire pages for BBCSO. For example...core alone is getting 35gb of updates.



The fellow who noticed the change to the Core articulations had a sharp eye. Paul Thomson has now confirmed that there is indeed a significant update coming for BBC SO, apparently within the next couple of weeks. It’s 35GB for Pro, smaller for Core:https://vi-control.net/community/threads/spitfire-audio-“this-is-london-calling”-bbc-symphony-orchestra.84345/post-4695908


----------



## MGdepp

What a coincidence ... a major update announcement just before the big sale! 
This should stop all the critics and put shame on them for doubting the generous donors. Smart move!


----------



## pbobcat

Kevperry777 said:


> By the way, in case you missed it on another thread....updated content has been listed on the spitfire pages for BBCSO. For example...core alone is getting 35gb of updates.


Paul Thompson responded on the other thread earlier. The extra 35gb is for the Pro version with the Core update being a smaller. Still great news though!


----------



## Kevperry777

pbobcat said:


> Paul Thompson responded on the other thread earlier. The extra 35gb is for the Pro version with the Core update being a smaller. Still great news though!


 
Thanks...I’ve corrected my earlier message. The leak on the Spitfire website was a bit off.

This explains why BBC is discounted all of December!


----------



## bfreepro

pbobcat said:


> Paul Thompson responded on the other thread earlier. The extra 35gb is for the Pro version with the Core update being a smaller. Still great news though!


I am genuinely looking forward to it. Hopefully it addresses some of the issues I mentioned. I really want to love this library/plug-in!


----------



## Eloy

hbjdk said:


> It was leaked on accident. The info was not supposed to have been out just yet, as they're not done bugtesting it.


That ”leak” was no accident- it will spur sales.........


----------



## pbobcat

bfreepro said:


> I am genuinely looking forward to it. Hopefully it addresses some of the issues I mentioned. I really want to love this library/plug-in!


I just picked up Core today along with Solo Strings and Aperture! Looking forward to diving in


----------



## bfreepro

pbobcat said:


> I just picked up Core today along with Solo Strings and Aperture! Looking forward to diving in


Enjoy! I love the solo strings. Had the old version as well, my first spitfire purchase if I remember correctly, before they were in Kontakt Player.


----------



## Macrawn

Sometimes it's a person's expectations of what something should be.

I don't know, I don't own it but it seems to sound very nice to my ears. The brass and woods sound good. But when I think BBC I think lots of traditional classical pieces, not hybrid sound, or the increased loudness people sort of expect.


Sean said:


> Not sure why some people are getting so mad about this review? He even recommends it to beginners, it's not like he says stay away at all costs. It seems like a good review to me.
> 
> @Rory You really shouldn't get so worked up over an arbitrary number some guy came up with to score some 0s and 1s that you download on your computer. Sure maybe the math doesn't quite add up but is it really the hostility? Maybe he just felt like the library is slightly above average, and gave it a 6/10. Who cares how exactly he came up with the number.



Isn't saying it's recommended for beginners sort of like a girl saying you are a nice guy when you ask her out.......There's nothing worse than a girl saying you are nice........ I'm just joking here though. 

In general I didn't think the review was harsh, it was positive on some stuff. Some of the hang ups are not hang ups based on my expectations. I'm expecting a smooth sound of a traditional orchestra, not hybrid loudness or bite. 

Also if Jose says it has a good sound, that carries a lot of weight for me because he's picky as hell in a good way. 

$600 bucks seems like a good price. 600 gig download though? Dang, I don't really need 300 gigs of extra mic posiitions I won't use much though. I just bought another 1 tb drive and this thing will fill half of it right away.


----------



## pbobcat

bfreepro said:


> Enjoy! I love the solo strings. Had the old version as well, my first spitfire purchase if I remember correctly, before they were in Kontakt Player.


From a quick play-around they sound gorgeous!


----------



## ed buller

I actually couldn't disagree more with this review. Yes it has its faults but it's a stunning Library nonetheless. And now with muted Brass and new legatos. Hatchet Job

best

ed


----------



## bfreepro

ed buller said:


> I actually couldn't disagree more with this review. Yes it has its faults but it's a stunning Library nonetheless. And now with muted Brass and new legatos. Hatchet Job
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Thanks for your thoughtful comment 😂. No one could ever have a different opinion than you right? I welcome differing viewpoints but the insults and claiming it’s a “hatchet job” are really strange. People ignore all the good things I say about it and the VERY specific reasons I came to my conclusion, and also I even say if I didn’t have other libraries I would give it at least an 8/10. It seems people are really getting defensive and some are even going so far as to personally attack a human being who just wasn’t as impressed with a library as they were. There are plenty of 10/10 reviews which you can enjoy if you want to only hear something you agree with, mine is a specific review from a non-beginner, and I’m not blown away. Big deal. It’s a product! Happy holidays everyone, there’s more important things in life!


----------



## ed buller

bfreepro said:


> Thanks for your thoughtful comment 😂. No one could ever have a different opinion than you right? I welcome differing viewpoints but the insults and claiming it’s a “hatchet job” are really strange. People ignore all the good things I say about it and the VERY specific reasons I came to my conclusion, and also I even say if I didn’t have other libraries I would give it at least an 8/10. It seems people are really getting defensive and some are even going so far as to personally attack a human being who just wasn’t as impressed with a library as they were. There are plenty of 10/10 reviews which you can enjoy if you want to only hear something you agree with, mine is a specific review from a non-beginner, and I’m not blown away. Big deal. It’s a product! Happy holidays everyone, there’s more important things in life!


thou giveth but can't receive...happy thanksgiving

e


----------



## MGdepp

What I must really criticize about the review is the number of spelling mistakes! Dude, you should really read that stuff before posting it. 

But all of that seems irrelevant vs the wrong math in calculating the 6/10 ... and saying something bad about SF ... speaking about them: I just watched through Ann-Kathrin Dern's 4 Youtube videos about her orchestral libraries.




Really good comparison complemented with good musical examples! The first objective about these is demonstrating the positive about the libraries she uses, like CSS, Cinebrass and Berlin Woodwinds! But there are also some mentions on SA libraries (not BBCSO, though). None of her traditional orchestral libraries are from SA.

Summing up what SA is mentioned for: they do good creative stuff like "on the edge of silence"-pads, but their legatos are not great, the articulations are inconsistent, lots of bugs that aren't fixed ... yada yada yada ...

I just hope certain members of this forum won't jump on that fine lady in the same way for her "hateful review"!  Well, I guess it is pointless ... it always goes like that here. No honest words appreciated. It spoils the good business and people here mostly don't wanna hear an alternative view-point to their own.


----------



## bfreepro

ed buller said:


> thou giveth but can't receive...happy thanksgiving
> 
> e


Ummm not even close 😂 there’s a HUGE difference between not liking a product and personally attacking someone dude. I’m sorry you can’t see that. People act like I wrote that no one in the world should buy this product and it’s complete shit. Fucking insane man. I have had many people who disagree with me (but even more who agree) and I’m honestly really happy to hear their thoughts. When people start personally attacking and acting like children, calling into question the integrity and mental capacity of the reviewer with the arithmetic crap, that’s another story  I have no doubts in my writing and critiquing ability, I write for Sample Library Review as well btw. So it’s really on you if you wanna take it there or not, I’m fine with it either way, but don’t expect me to not defend myself. When you hold more personal attachment to a product than another living human being who you disagree with, I truly feel sorry for you 
I’m personally more offended by the reviews that state this product is perfect without mentioning any of the shortcomings.


----------



## MGdepp

Here ... honest words of wisdom from a seasoned professional without any of the BS!



Unfortunately, it is hate speech according to many here ...


----------



## ed buller

MGdepp said:


> Here ... honest words of wisdom from a seasoned professional without any of BS!
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, it is hate speech according to many here ...



yeah the brass Library had some horrible tuning, and "that's the vibe man!" is an appalling excuse.

best

e


----------



## ed buller

bfreepro said:


> Ummm not even close 😂 there’s a HUGE difference between not liking a product and personally attacking someone dude. I’m sorry you can’t see that. People act like I wrote that no one in the world should buy this product and it’s complete shit. Fucking insane man. I have had many people who disagree with me (but even more who agree) and I’m honestly really happy to hear their thoughts. When people start personally attacking and acting like children, calling into question the integrity and mental capacity of the reviewer with the arithmetic crap, that’s another story  I have no doubts in my writing and critiquing ability, I write for Sample Library Review as well btw. So it’s really on you if you wanna take it there or not, I’m fine with it either way, but don’t expect me to not defend myself. When you hold more personal attachment to a product than another living human being who you disagree with, I truly feel sorry for you
> I’m personally more offended by the reviews that state this product is perfect without mentioning any of the shortcomings.


Respectfully perhaps you should calm down. I did NOT make any personal attacks on you !...I attacked your review. I think it's badly written and inaccurate. None of what I said is directed at you the person...just your product...yet you take offense...oh the irony. I can't be bothered to go through and rebuff your criticism in detail because 1, life is too short and 2, it will just wind you up, and to what end. 

i won't be addressing this again

best

ed


----------



## Markrs

ed buller said:


> Respectfully perhaps you should calm down. I did NOT make any personal attacks on you !...I attacked your review. I think it's badly written and inaccurate. None of what I said is directed at you the person...just your product...yet you take offense...oh the irony. I can't be bothered to go through and rebuff your criticism in detail because 1, life is too short and 2, it will just wind you up, and to what end.
> 
> i won't be addressing this again
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Sorry but when you say something is a "hatchet job" you imply that the person has deliberately set out to find faults and rubbish a product, insinuating a pre existing bias. For me that is a personal attack.


----------



## Markrs

Just for context I don't own BBCSO but will probably buy it over the weekend. I personally appreciated the review by @bfreepro as it gave balance to other reviews.

I have genuinely never seen such a reaction to a 6/10 review before. Normally for this type reaction it is a much loved like product getting 1/10 review. All very strange


----------



## bfreepro

ed buller said:


> Respectfully perhaps you should calm down. I did NOT make any personal attacks on you !...I attacked your review. I think it's badly written and inaccurate. None of what I said is directed at you the person...just your product...yet you take offense...oh the irony. I can't be bothered to go through and rebuff your criticism in detail because 1, life is too short and 2, it will just wind you up, and to what end.
> 
> i won't be addressing this again
> 
> best
> 
> ed


I’d be more than happy to hear your rebuffs, that’s the thing. Please go ahead and review it in your own way, the more the merrier! Your thoughts would be just as valid as mine. Would you like video examples and comparisons with the libraries I mentioned, I would actually be more than happy to do that. The fact people claim I’m making stuff up or just trashing it for no reason are of course going to be taken personally, when I went out of my way to be fair, explain exactly where I’m coming from, mention in detail where it lacks, why I think it lacks, and which libraries do it better (in this instance the spitfire symphonic woodwinds especially). Nothing is “inaccurate”, there are no lies or falsehoods in that writing, and when you imply otherwise, well, who in the world wouldn’t take slight offense at that? Come on now


----------



## ed buller

Markrs said:


> Just for context I don't own BBCSO but will probably buy it over the weekend. I personally appreciated the review by @bfreepro as it gave balance to other reviews.
> 
> I have genuinely never seen such a reaction to a 6/10 review before. Normally for this type reaction it is a much loved like product getting 1/10. All very strange


hence my post..it doesn't read like a balanced review!......i think you'll be very happy with BBCSO

best

e


----------



## MGdepp

ed buller said:


> Respectfully perhaps you should calm down. I did NOT make any personal attacks on you !...I attacked your review. I think it's badly written and inaccurate. None of what I said is directed at you the person...just your product...yet you take offense...oh the irony. I can't be bothered to go through and rebuff your criticism in detail because 1, life is too short and 2, it will just wind you up, and to what end.
> 
> i won't be addressing this again
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Exactly! You kind of repressed using that word "hatchet job". Otherwise, I would even agree that someone making reviews should have a thicker skin then the average Joe and allow similarly critical words against his reviews as a developer should be open to criticism of his products! Yet, the SA-guys don't have any skin at all, not mentioning thick one. And simple opinions by users uttered here have been attacked just a harshly.

And one more aspect that hasn't even been mentioned in this thread ... there are thousands of library reviews out on YouTube, many of them being shared here. In most of these, the reviewers get the libraries for free. As often as they mention that they are not influenced by getting free stuff - you have to be VERY naive to believe that! That is why I find it really good to see some reviews of older libraries from people who obviously bought those! It seems so odd to me, that here on VI it is THOSE reviews that people get mad about! Crazy world ...


----------



## bfreepro

Also, I think people are blowing this completely out of proportion. A 6/10 is a 3/5. A 3/5 is not a bad product, whatsoever. Most likely people are simply not used to every numerical value being used on a scale from 1-10, we think anything under 7 means is complete garbage. A 6/10 doesn’t even mean it’s not “brilliant”, it just means it doesn’t like up to the hype, and honestly, what library in the world would live up to the hype they built around this product? And really, criticize me all you want, I can handle it lol. I just am genuinely surprised when I went out of my way to explain these things and be fair and give praise where it’s due.


----------



## bfreepro

hbjdk said:


> Is it really necessary to put a "laughing" emoji on someone else's message? It just throws fuel on everyone's temper


Hmm I’d rather find humor in something than get angry. But point taken!


----------



## ed buller

this:
_"FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT. I RESPECT THE COMPANY AND THEIR AMBITION AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE MONUMENTAL HYPE AND PROMISES IT MADE INITIALLY."_


to me that reads "Hatchet Job".....and I truly am sorry if i've annoyed you , I don't want to, but I stand by what I say. I think this feels biased. There is so much about this Library you don't mention .

and this:
_"I held off on this too long but really felt the written reviews weren't nearly honest critical enough, leaving it to vloggers like Daniel James to report the real problems with the library. I prefer reading written reviews, so here you go. An honest, critical look from a "non-beginner" (who owns a TON of top notch libraries) on the BBCSO!"_


again you assume that people who like this Library are not professionals and that we are not being honest in our praise for it. I too own a ton of "top notch Libraries!"..and I do this for a living. This library has faults...JUST LIKE EVERY FUCKING PIECE OF SOFTWARE I HAVE EVER BOUGHT!.....but was it worth the 699....yup...in spades.


best

ed


----------



## bfreepro

ed buller said:


> this:
> _"FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT. I RESPECT THE COMPANY AND THEIR AMBITION AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE MONUMENTAL HYPE AND PROMISES IT MADE INITIALLY."_
> 
> 
> to me that reads "Hatchet Job".....and I truly am sorry if i've annoyed you , I don't want to, but I stand by what I say. I think this feels biased. There is so much about this Library you don't mention .
> 
> and this:
> _"I held off on this too long but really felt the written reviews weren't nearly honest critical enough, leaving it to vloggers like Daniel James to report the real problems with the library. I prefer reading written reviews, so here you go. An honest, critical look from a "non-beginner" (who owns a TON of top notch libraries) on the BBCSO!"_
> 
> 
> again you assume that people who like this Library are not professionals and that we are not being honest in our praise for it. I too own a ton of "top notch Libraries!"..and I do this for a living. This library has faults...JUST LIKE EVERY FUCKING PIECE OF SOFTWARE I HAVE EVER BOUGHT!.....but was it worth the 699....yup...in spades.
> 
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Heres the thing, I bought this library after reading the 10/10 reviews. To me, they skipped over every shortcoming and I wasted my money. They completely glossed over almost all of the issues. That offends me more than someone saying they didn’t like it. And to not mention the hype and bold promises they made about the library wouldn’t be honest either, it’s nearly impossible to release a product that would fulfill those promises. Never once did I say people who like the library aren’t professionals, that’s an odd assumption to make. There are just simply products on the market that are significantly better, and again, to ignore that and lump it with only praise, would also be dishonest. I stand by what I wrote, and respect your viewpoint, honestly.


----------



## CT

peladio said:


> Yeah that cultish brand worship annoys me to no end..



Here in the real world, though, there's far more of an annoying cultish vibe about the people who like to play keyboard giant slayer with Spitfire than what you're describing.



hbjdk said:


> Spitfire totally shot themselves in the foot with all the hype pre-release, and of course that affects what light a reviewer sees the library in, including here - anything else would be strange. Thus I think it's fair for a reviewer to see if the released product matches the hype.



I don't really agree with this, nor with much of the other typical talk about Spitfire Hype. Spitfire advertises and markets. Forums hype.



MGdepp said:


> and people here mostly don't wanna hear an alternative view-point to their own.



I suppose you're including yourself in this too, right? Or are you beautifully open-minded about the possibility that people actually like and successfully use stuff that you'd prefer to write off as crap?

Anyway, as far as this review goes, I do have to agree with those who raise their eyebrows about this being relegated to an "ok for beginners only" library. Most "top notch" libraries are riddled with issues and shortcomings. The idea that there is much of a gap between them in that respect is, I think, somewhat misguided. It's more a situation of picking your poison (or weighing strengths, to be more positive).

Just my perspective, and if anyone wants to chalk that up to me being a beginner, a shill, a know-nothing, a nobody without a YouTube channel, or a general ass, feel free.


----------



## dcoscina

bfreepro said:


> You are completely putting words in my mouth here man. I have done these reviews for a long time. People come to me and appreciate the fact I am honest. I did not just play through the library "haphazardly", as I clearly state in my review as well... I literally used this as my main orchestral library for MONTHS and found it simply paled in comparison to what I had been using. I never state that no one should buy it, you completely ignore the positive things I say about it, and you also ignore the many times I state WHY I have come to these conclusions. Also, to state that someone's review "comes to the wrong conclusion" is ridiculous. It's a review. It comes to a DIFFERENT conclusion than you came to, but it's nowhere near being "wrong". I respect your opinions and appreciate the conversation, but seriously, read it again. I gave it 6/10. Saying I "panned the entire product" is honestly bullshit. You say you respect others opinions, but I don't think you actually do lol. Which is fine, but come on man, we can have this discussion without putting others down and making these wild assumptions. I tried to love this product and implemented it in my work for months, using it on many professional projects. I even state I love the percs and strings, and say it's a great value. A 6/10 is a 3/5, this is not a bad rating. Again, I own a significant amount of libraries, and this one simply can't keep up. It's not mean spirited, never once did I say it's garbage, that it sucks, that no one should buy it, I can't believe you'd say my review is "mean spirited", that honestly blows my mind, especially with the praise I give to certain elements.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, this is exactly what I did, is simply give my observations. Look how many reviews this library has gotten, 10/10, 5/5, stuff like that. So I am here wishing someone had been honest with me before I bought it, and given some realistic contrast to the perfect 10 reviews. That's all. There are PLENTY of reviews and opinions on this library. This is one coming from a very specific viewpoint and I go out of my way to make sure this is clear.


I did a very thorough review of BBCSO for FSM last year highlighting both good and bad aspects. I don’t assign number ratings however. They undermine the exposition of the piece and figure people can draw their own conclusions. 

Jose and I come from the same background and obviously see the value in this library. It’s not overhyped and works very well for realistic mock ups. I think the brass are tame but notHorrible (brass player here). Winds are nice and percussion I find quite good. But I could see game composers or trailer composers not liking it because it won’t deliver the sound they are after.


----------



## CT

hbjdk said:


> Mike, I looked up the word "hype" just now:
> 
> 
> verb
> 
> promote or publicize (a product or idea) intensively, often exaggerating its benefits.
> 
> Don't you think at least the last part is true for Spitfire's marketing of BBCSO?



No, I don't. My experience has been that BBCSO is just what they promoted it to be, which, incidentally, wasn't "a perfect library free of all issues, shortcomings, and compromises." 

And anyway, I think "hype" in this context is a more fitting description of hundreds of pages of forum discussion which may lead to a certain inflated view of something, than it is of the understandably inflated language of marketing.


----------



## peladio

Traz said:


> Why are you the way that you are?



You'll discover that ignore function makes this forum much more enjoyable..fanboys can become really annoying



hbjdk said:


> It was leaked on accident. The info was not supposed to have been out just yet, as they're not done bugtesting it.



Suuuure 

But I'm surprised there wasn't a 13 second black screen teaser with website countdown to announce the update..


----------



## CT

hbjdk said:


> For me it is a "What came first: the chicken or the egg"-situation.



I mean, I think it's a rather clear sequence of events: product teases/announcement > 450 pages of speculation, jokes, discussion. 

Everything is teased and announced these days, but not everything gets a megathread. I'm not criticizing the megathread either, it was fun, but if there was anything I'd consider hype about this release, or any release, it would be a result of forum/social media activity, not advertising. 

In fact, I can't really think of any developer in this niche that I'd say is guilty of hyping beyond a reasonable, expected degree. Maybe I need to work on being more cynical, bitter, and jaded about all this stuff. Amassing about eighty libraries I never use might do the trick....


----------



## MGdepp

Mike T said:


> Everything is teased and announced these days, but not everything gets a megathread. I'm not criticizing the megathread either, it was fun, but if there was anything I'd consider hype about this release, or any release, it would be a result of forum/social media activity, not advertising.


Oh boy ...


----------



## CT

hbjdk said:


> So people that don't share your view on Spitfire's marketing are "cynical, bitter and jaded about all this stuff"?
> 
> Right.
> 
> Actually, the above is a detour, let's get back to the review and BBCSO.



Nope, that's more a general commentary on the culture of overbuying and option-hunting on this forum and its effect on peoples' enjoyment of and appreciation for what they have, but if you want to characterize what I said in a more personal way to be able to write off my feelings on all this, go for it.



MGdepp said:


> Oh boy ...



Something wrong?


----------



## MGdepp

Mike T said:


> Something wrong?


You seem to be missing the basics of how modern marketing works. I guess I am out of here ... I knew from the beginning the crowd that would be triggered by this review and where it would lead. It was nice to see, that at least some folks are not part of it. But I cannot see any purpose in continuing this thread. I just have seen to many like this one already ... Cheers!


----------



## CT

MGdepp said:


> You seem to be missing the basics of how modern marketing works. I guess I am out of here ... I knew from the beginning the crowd that would be triggered by this review and where it would lead. It was nice to see, that at least some folks are not part of it. But I cannot see any purpose for in continuing this thread. I just have seen to many like this one. Cheers!



Oh come now, don't throw your hands up like that. Let's genuinely talk about it. Earlier in the thread, you said that most people here don't want to hear viewpoints that aren't their own. Are you not an exception to that? 

I understand if not, just clarifying, since I got the impression you'd be up for something more nuanced than "you seem to be missing the basics of how modern marketing works." Of course I get that, but how people respond to that, and to the responses of others, is their own responsibility....


----------



## MGdepp

Mike T said:


> Oh come now, don't throw your hands up like that. Let's genuinely talk about it. Earlier in the thread, you said that most people here don't want to hear viewpoints that aren't their own. Are you not an exception to that?
> 
> I understand if not, just clarifying, since I got the impression you'd be up for something more nuanced than "you seem to be missing the basics of how modern marketing works." Of course I get that, but how people respond to that, and to the responses of others, is their own responsibility....


Frankly, I want to hear opinions of other people. Just not opinions of other people that don't want to hear certain opinions ...


----------



## CT

MGdepp said:


> Frankly, I want to hear opinions of other people. Just not opinions of other people that don't want to hear certain opinions ...



Hmm, does having a response to certain opinions other than "oh, you're right and I'm wrong!" constitute not wanting to hear them at all?


Aw, ok, guess this exchange is over. Seems like disagreements on here tend to fizzle out when people realize you're neither going to capitulate nor wander down some dead end of fallacy/general silliness that they can latch on to as evidence of their own unassailable objective rightness... sorry to disappoint. Off to do some scoring with my beginner orchestral library!


----------



## babylonwaves

hey @bfreepro 

in your review you write about the SF player: " It would often completely max out my RAM usage, when the same amount of instruments could be open and loaded in Kontakt with only a little over 50 percent RAM being used."

I wonder how you compare this because there is not a single library available for both platforms?


----------



## bfreepro

babylonwaves said:


> hey @bfreepro
> 
> in your review you write about the SF player: " It would often completely max out my RAM usage, when the same amount of instruments could be open and loaded in Kontakt with only a little over 50 percent RAM being used."
> 
> I wonder how you compare this because there is not a single library available for both platforms?



correct, I mean replacing them with comparable libraries, such as the brass in bbcso with jxl brass or spitfire symphonic, using one instrument per instance, and loading a patch with all articulations loaded as opposed to a single articulation patch. Stuff like that. I don’t claim it’s a definite and precise way to compare, but it’s very clear to me I only have ram issues and any performance issues when the spitfire player is loaded. This doesn’t happen with kontakt, synchron player, or sine player. I even disable some of the articulations in the spitfire player


----------



## bfreepro

Mike T said:


> Hmm, does having a response to certain opinions other than "oh, you're right and I'm wrong!" constitute not wanting to hear them at all?
> 
> 
> Aw, ok, guess this exchange is over. Seems like disagreements on here tend to fizzle out when people realize you're neither going to capitulate nor wander down some dead end of fallacy/general silliness that they can latch on to as evidence of their own unassailable objective rightness... sorry to disappoint. Off to do some scoring with my beginner orchestral library!



Enjoy! Remember it was spitfire themselves who quite literally call it a “universal starting point”, aka, something to start out with


----------



## babylonwaves

bfreepro said:


> correct, I mean replacing them with comparable libraries, such as the brass in bbcso with jxl brass or spitfire symphonic, using one instrument per instance, and loading a patch with all articulations loaded as opposed to a single articulation patch.



@bfreepro 
okay, I personally wouldn't compare things that way. Especially because all those player only load a fraction of the sample and stream the rest from the disk and you simply don't know how many "fractions" are loaded. Every round robin is a fraction and in other parts of this forum every round robln and/or dynamic layer appear to be a welcome thing.
But you're right in regards of the default settings. the SF player seems to have a rather generous preload buffer size. The recommended minimum is 10% of the default. It's a bit like in Kontakt where the default DFD size is 64 and you can go down to 6 on a SSD setup. Did you try this? For me, going down to 1000 in SF Player takes off 50% of the memory load.


----------



## bfreepro

babylonwaves said:


> okay, I personally wouldn't compare things that way. Especially because all those player only load a fraction of the sample and stream the rest from the disk and you simply don't know how many "fractions" are loaded. Every round robin is a fraction and in other parts of this forum every round robln and/or dynamic layer appear to be a welcome thing.
> But you're right in regards of the default settings. the SF player seems to have a rather generous preload buffer size. The recommended minimum is 10% of the default. It's a bit like in Kontakt where the default DFD size is 64 and you can go down to 6 on an SSD setup. Did you try this? For me, going down to 1000 in SF Player takes off 50% of the memory load.





babylonwaves said:


> okay, I personally wouldn't compare things that way. Especially because all those player only load a fraction of the sample and stream the rest from the disk and you simply don't know how many "fractions" are loaded. Every round robin is a fraction and in other parts of this forum every round robln and/or dynamic layer appear to be a welcome thing.
> But you're right in regards of the default settings. the SF player seems to have a rather generous preload buffer size. The recommended minimum is 10% of the default. It's a bit like in Kontakt where the default DFD size is 64 and you can go down to 6 on an SSD setup. Did you try this? For me, going down to 1000 in SF Player takes off 50% of the memory load.


I’ve had a long interaction with their support as well using settings they suggested to no avail, but I will also try what you mentioned. The bottom line is when I try to use their player, it gives me performance issues and RAM use goes way up and it’s just an undeniable fact for me, and I have tried quite a few things to fix it as well, I didn’t just jump to this conclusion or anything  I never tried to say they would use the exact same amount of RAM or would perform identically, but it’s just very obvious to me one of them is the odd man out and not nearly as well optimized. The official SLR review also echoes this statement btw. Sometimes changing the settings around fixes things like the load time but not the RAM use overall. I’m still hopeful future updates will continue to optimize the plug-in!


----------



## CT

bfreepro said:


> Enjoy! Remember it was spitfire themselves who quite literally call it a “universal starting point”, aka, something to start out with



And indeed it is, yet that hardly sets a limit on the lifespan or scope of its usefulness!


----------



## bfreepro

Mike T said:


> Here in the real world, though, there's far more of an annoying cultish vibe about the people who like to play keyboard giant slayer with Spitfire than what you're describing.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really agree with this, nor with much of the other typical talk about Spitfire Hype. Spitfire advertises and markets. Forums hype.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose you're including yourself in this too, right? Or are you beautifully open-minded about the possibility that people actually like and successfully use stuff that you'd prefer to write off as crap?
> 
> Anyway, as far as this review goes, I do have to agree with those who raise their eyebrows about this being relegated to an "ok for beginners only" library. Most "top notch" libraries are riddled with issues and shortcomings. The idea that there is much of a gap between them in that respect is, I think, somewhat misguided. It's more a situation of picking your poison (or weighing strengths, to be more positive).
> 
> Just my perspective, and if anyone wants to chalk that up to me being a beginner, a shill, a know-nothing, a nobody without a YouTube channel, or a general ass, feel free.





Mike T said:


> And indeed it is, yet that hardly sets a limit on the lifespan or scope of its usefulness!


Nope, sure doesn’t, and I never said it did. The fact that it’s super underwhelming for me puts a big limit on its usefulness though 😉


----------



## CT

bfreepro said:


> Nope, sure doesn’t, and I never said it did.



Well, I'm sure you can understand how one might interpret the conclusions of your review as suggesting that you do feel that way, hence the resultant responses from users whose experience differs and perhaps want to be sure that anyone who happens across the review sees alternative opinions, should they be able to benefit from them.


----------



## bfreepro

Mike T said:


> Well, I'm sure you can understand how one might interpret the conclusions of your review as suggesting that you do feel that way, hence the resultant responses from users whose experience differs and perhaps want to be sure that anyone who happens across the review sees alternative opinions, should they be able to benefit from them.


Sure I can, but only a tiny handful seem to really take offense to it and go a bit beyond offering an opposing viewpoint which is really a strange and extreme reaction. Sincerely never meant to offend anyone or imply that people who like the library are just idiots or something, and yes it genuinely surprises me that people take it that way. And I’m sure you understand why I wanted to give a more critical look at the library in a field of professional reviews which seemed to conveniently ignore all its shortcomings, I was even asked to do a review of this library by many people who also shared my disappointment and felt the professional reviews were misleading.


----------



## CT

bfreepro said:


> And I’m sure you understand why I wanted to give a more critical look at the library in a field of professional reviews which seemed to conveniently ignore all its shortcomings



Actually, I can't, given that from what I've seen, it's received about as much criticism in various venues and "professional reviews" as anything else seems to, if not more. I guess I'd just hardly say there's a dearth of critical assessment about BBCSO out there, but it's obviously your prerogative to provide more.

I do however understand becoming defensive when others take things to an unwarranted level. I also lament how much that makes people dig in on what they've already decided, since I'd like to believe that the goal of those who take issue, however they may go about it, is the potential benefit to others who may otherwise miss out on something worthwhile, instead of just some tribal thing, but perhaps that's naive.


----------



## DS_Joost

ed buller said:


> hence my post..it doesn't read like a balanced review!......i think you'll be very happy with BBCSO
> 
> best
> 
> e



Dude you come across as a shill... just saying...


----------



## DS_Joost

Some of you should be seriously ashamed of your responses to this review. Seriously. Rethink your life choices if a single review means so much to you. Professional composers... for shame...


----------



## CT

DS_Joost said:


> Some of you should be seriously ashamed of your responses to this review. Seriously. Rethink your life choices if a single review means so much to you. Professional composers... for shame...



Hi, just to clarify, are you including me in this? I'm right here, and I think it's preferable to be direct instead of just saying "some of you." Thanks for understanding!


----------



## DS_Joost

Mike T said:


> Hi, just to clarify, are you including me in this? I'm right here, and I think it's preferable to be direct instead of just saying "some of you." Thanks for understanding!



That includes you, since you seem to be taking OP's opinion as "taking it too far". For fuck's sake.


----------



## CT

DS_Joost said:


> That includes you, since you seem to be taking OP's opinion as "taking it too far". For fuck's sake.



Thanks, I appreciate knowing you feel that way, although I'm not sure where I said anything about "taking it too far," nor why you're so agitated as to let loose a "fuck's sake."


----------



## DS_Joost

Edit: being given some more information, I decided to retract my comment because it was stupid.


----------



## CT

Actually, that was in reference to those who were, shall we say, a little too passionate in their responses to Mr. Free's review. It is now in reference to you too, as it turns out.


----------



## DS_Joost

Mike T said:


> Actually, that was in reference to those who were, shall we say, a little too passionate in their responses to Mr. Free's review. It is now in reference to you too, as it turns out.



Then I shall pull in my accusations and apologize for misunderstanding.


----------



## CT

DS_Joost said:


> Then I shall pull in my accusations and apologize for misunderstanding.



Oh, don't worry about it! It may, though, be worth considering that not everyone who disagrees with you is a shill or something, despite me inviting that interpretation of my disagreements with Mr. Free in my initial post... I didn't *really* mean it, and it isn't exactly a good look for your particular "side" in the disagreement.


----------



## method1

Some talented people can make a behringer guitar with one string and bad intonation do amazing things.
Excellent results can be obtained with "imperfect" libraries that have similar problems.
It's still reasonable to expect a certain level of QA even when buying that behringer guitar though.

In general I agree that BBCSO and several other SFA products have technical issues.
Is there not some middle ground where we can address that ongoing issue with SFA while still appreciating the wonderful tonality and creativity they bring to their products? 
Too often it seems to me that extreme opinions prevail, with some unwilling to recognise any faults and others missing out on the goodies to be had beyond the flaws.

Happy BF everyone!


----------



## Rory

Mike T said:


> It may, though, be worth considering that not everyone who disagrees with you is a shill or something



Don't sweat it. One of the participants in this thread has asserted that I'm actually a Spitfire employee. It goes along with asserting that Spitfire deliberately planted a kernel of info on its site as part of a marketing plan, expecting the kernel would be discovered by a Core user and raised in a post on this forum. It also goes along with the apparent belief that peppering this thread with Ha!Ha! and Sad! emojis (hearts, not just likes, for people who agree with you) makes one look like a grownup rather than a four year old. Of course, as the author of this review has pointed out repeatedly, he has right on his side, being, unlike others, honest.

Over the next month, a fair number of people will decide whether to purchase BBC SO. I doubt that they'll be giving this review, the conspiracy theories, the declarations of purity and the prepubescent use emojis a whole lot of weight.


----------



## ed buller

DS_Joost said:


> Dude you come across as a shill... just saying...


oh please....name calling ?


----------



## bfreepro

Rory said:


> Don't sweat it. One of the participants in this thread has asserted that I'm actually a Spitfire employee. It goes along with asserting that Spitfire deliberately planted a kernel of info on its site as part of a marketing plan, expecting the kernel would be discovered by a Core user and raised in a post on this forum. It also goes along with the apparent belief that peppering this thread with Ha!Ha! and Sad! emojis (hearts, not just likes, for people who agree with you) makes one look like a grownup rather than a four year old. Of course, as the author of this review has pointed out repeatedly, he has right on his side, being, unlike others, honest.
> 
> Over the next month, a fair number of people will decide whether to purchase BBC SO. I doubt that they'll be giving this review, the conspiracy theories, the declarations of purity and the prepubescent use emojis a whole lot of weight.



Oh Rory, if you were as critical and analytical with the library as you are with my review and the interactions and responses stemming from it, we’d actually probably be on the same page!


----------



## bfreepro

Mike T said:


> Actually, that was in reference to those who were, shall we say, a little too passionate in their responses to Mr. Free's review. It is now in reference to you too, as it turns out.


It’s Freeland


----------



## CT

bfreepro said:


> It’s Freeland



Not Freepro, then? Good thing I didn't go with that.


----------



## Mike Fox

Mike T said:


> I don't really agree with this, nor with much of the other typical talk about Spitfire Hype. Spitfire advertises and markets. Forums hype.



"To sound like a film score, you NEED to go where film makers go, with the same players, playing the same instruments".

"It's all about to CHANGE"

“To have all i need at my fingertips in one single plugin is a GAME CHANGER.”

" To usher in this new epoch, we have created a dedicated library that encompasses this new, beautiful REVOLUTION."

"This selection of instantly gratifying, progressive techniques is all you're going to need to take your scores into the next decade. Be part of the REVOLUTION!"

You're not wrong in saying that forums hype, because they do!

But unless you really believe that Neo is somehow revolutionary, or BBCSO is a game changer, or "you need to go where film makers go, with the same players, playing the same instruments" in order to sound like a film score, then you're just ignoring the hype that's clearly embedded in their marketing.

I mean, i can't necessarily knock SA for exaggerating their products. Just about every major retailer does this. It's what marketing is! I've never seen a Big Mac look the way it does in the commercials, and I'm not expecting it to, just like how I'm not expecting my music to sound like a film score if I buy SSS.


----------



## Rory

bfreepro said:


> if you were as critical and analytical of the library as you are with my review and the interactions and responses stemming from it, we’d actually probably be on the same page!



You and the gentleman who asserted that I work for Spitfire are not only on thin ice, you've fallen clear through.

In June, I started a thread for the express purpose of voicing dissatisfaction with certain behaviour of the Spitfire App. Unless you live under a rock, you know that both SINE and the Spitfire App are relatively new and are going through growing pains. There is also a view, which I share, that they are important to competition in the virtual instrument market space, and should be supported.

Spitfire took my concerns, and the lengthy discussion that ensued, seriously enough that it posted directly to the thread. The difference between that thread and your so-called review, and this thread that you specifically titled in relation to the current sale, is that the concerns that I expressed were focused and properly documented. For that reason, and to its credit, Spitfire took the thread seriously, acknowledged that there were issues and said that it will be working on them. I have had dealings with Spitfire support since that have been extremely satisfactory.

In the thread that I started, there were a few people, some of them well known on here, who attempted to dismiss what I was saying. That kind of fell flat when Spitfire decided to take the thread seriously. However, there was another difference, apart from focus and fact-based analysis, that distinguished that thread from this one. Nobody was engaging in the kind of juvenile behaviour that you and a number of others have engaged in here.

You and your posse are self-destructing just about every time you open your mouths.


----------



## CT

Mike Fox said:


> I mean, i can't necessarily knock SA for exaggerating their products. Just about every major retailer does this.



Exactly, that's all I'm saying, that I think there is a distinction between hype inherent in marketing and hype/expectations that people stir up of their own accord.

Developers can say whatever they want, and it's up to us to either buy into it fully or take it with the appropriate and understandable grain of salt. Though I do genuinely think there's something "game changing" about BBCSO, however amorphous a phrase that is, and I do think there's something to be said for getting session players in an oft-used space to get a particular filmic sound. Don't have Neo though, so I can neither confirm nor deny a revolution.


----------



## gives19

bfreepro said:


> Yes and that’s coming up as my next review, wanted to get this one out of the way first. IMO Abbey Road is infinitely more useful. Probably the most realistic samples I’ve heard to date. The thing I like about is, it’s an incredible foundation for sketching, then you can fill in the details with your own favorite libraries.The foundation of your track will have that beautiful Abbey Road ambience to it, which you can easily match with reverbs and careful placement. In my opinion it’s always easier to start with a broad strokes library recorded in a good space, then layer in the details. There’s no other library that has the same ambience and tone as abbey road, but it’s really easy to blend it all together when you build a track around it.


I totally agree. That is the one to get IMHO. I was hedging at first but the more I researched it and see that they will probably update and add things to it, I decided to grab it. Also it's the room that sounds really good!


----------



## Mike Fox

Mike T said:


> Exactly, that's all I'm saying, that I think there is a distinction between hype inherent in marketing and hype/expectations that people stir up of their own accord.


Fair enough. I just got the impression from your post that Spitfire doesn't hype their products, but forums do.


----------



## CT

Nah, a few times I tried to make that distinction clear, lest anyone think what you thought:



Mike T said:


> Everything is teased and announced these days, but not everything gets a megathread.





Mike T said:


> In fact, I can't really think of any developer in this niche that I'd say is guilty of hyping beyond a reasonable, expected degree.





Mike T said:


> Of course I get [how marketing hype works], but how people respond to that, and to the responses of others, is their own responsibility....


----------



## dcoscina

I'm in the camp that sees the value of BBCSO. I've worked with real orchestras and find the sound of BBC to be largely more accurate and faithful compared to other libraries that cater to a hyped/amped production sound. To me, BBCSO is as much a compositional learning resource as it is a tool. It rewards those who apply traditional orchestration technique to it, and it blends like almost no other library I've worked with. But I'm mostly doing concert music or commercial music that leans on those influences. I don't need FFFFFFF horns or whatever. The horns a4 sound quite nice in my opinion. The solo is a little wanting but arranged properly, it's still usable. 

Now will I jump to Abbey Road One modular whenever it comes out? For film score fare, in a hot minute! It's more dynamic and brings that cinematic tone to the table. But I would still use BBCSO for mock ups to give orchestras (or StaffPad but that's another topic). And use it on commercial work that needs some subtlety


----------



## bfreepro

dcoscina said:


> I'm in the camp that sees the value of BBCSO. I've worked with real orchestras and find the sound of BBC to be largely more accurate and faithful compared to other libraries that cater to a hyped/amped production sound. To me, BBCSO is as much a compositional learning resource as it is a tool. It rewards those who apply traditional orchestration technique to it, and it blends like almost no other library I've worked with. But I'm mostly doing concert music or commercial music that leans on those influences. I don't need FFFFFFF horns or whatever. The horns a4 sound quite nice in my opinion. The solo is a little wanting but arranged properly, it's still usable.
> 
> Now will I jump to Abbey Road One modular whenever it comes out? For film score fare, in a hot minute! It's more dynamic and brings that cinematic tone to the table. But I would still use BBCSO for mock ups to give orchestras (or StaffPad but that's another topic). And use it on commercial work that needs some subtlety


Thanks for your thoughts and explanation. I definitely see the value in it too and certainly appreciate the concept.


----------



## CT

dcoscina said:


> To me, BBCSO is as much a compositional learning resource as it is a tool. It rewards those who apply traditional orchestration technique to it, and it blends like almost no other library I've worked with.



This embodies what I'd say is the "game changing" thing about it. 

More than anything else commercially available that I've used or seen used, this thing plays exactly the way you'd expect it to from the perspective of someone writing at a desk for a real orchestra. The recordings have a really remarkable sense of clarity and dimension, and it is pretty much accurately balanced... god, what a relief that is! NOBODY ever gets that right out of the box, even those who claim to, and it is a pain to rectify. And yes, there is some sense that these people, for whom playing with each other is second nature, bring this "oneness" to their performances, even when playing isolated notes to be sampled. Hence the unusually convincing blend when good writing/orchestration are applied. 

Are these things typically valued by virtual instrument users, particularly when other more commonly prized attributes are given less attention? Maybe not by the majority, no, but it certainly feels to me like there's a demographic of composers for whom this is a total dream, and it isn't just the beginners who get something complete and as "reliable" as a virtual orchestra can be from a learning perspective.

I didn't want to use any of this stuff when I was starting out. I was a "by hand" person and it was only grudgingly that I accepted the necessity of embracing this technology. BBCSO is one of the things that's helped me enjoy it all a little more. I doubt I'll ever not have to worry about fighting with samples for one reason or another, but I'm doing it a hell of a lot less now.


----------



## axb312

Thanks for your review @bfreepro


----------



## erikradbo

MGdepp said:


> There is some fascinating spirit on this forum, that everybody is speaking freely about libraries, including bashing them, but as soon as that is about a SA library someone will get triggered by it.



Increasingly the marketing departments in large corporations have focused on influencing the opinion through new channels. It’s not something they brag about but it’s also not a secret. Sample libraries are nowadays big business and there are many big companies with huge marketing budgets, and one of the the biggest marketing division in the industry is no doubt the one over at SA. 

Of course they have people trying to steer the opinion away from negative criticism and question bad reviews of their products, since that’s their job. Of course these people work through different channels such as social media and forums. This is not to accuse anyone or make any company look bad, no more so than accusing any other marketing efforts; they are not good or bad per se. But as a consumer it would be naive to believe this industry would be any different than other with big money involved. Influencers are very well paid for a reason. 

No more than everything being said in a tv ad is necessarily true, the opinions in forums and social media is not always the thoughts of a single mind. This is of course not only true for SA but lots of other manufacturers as well. Criticism against some companies seems to always be drowned in a sea of disagreement.


----------



## CT

Remarkable that known forum members disagreeing over a review sparks musings about developer sleeper agents. I know (hope?) you're not suggesting that's what's going on here, and of course it's not a far fetched idea in general, but man... we have gotten so creative when it comes to ways in which we can brush aside and delegitimize unwelcome opinions and ideas. 

You got me, I'm a paid shill. Does that make your lives a bit easier? Let's move on from it then.


----------



## Traz

Mike T said:


> You got me, I'm a paid shill. Does that make your lives a bit easier? Let's move on from it then.


We're on to you Mike T. If that even is your real name!


----------



## CT

It's a clever alias. See, if you move the letters around, and add some others, you get Spitkfirem.


----------



## doctoremmet

Mike T said:


> You got me, I'm a paid shill


I was accused of this more or less the other day. All because I do not hide my enthusiasm for certain libraries / developers. I guess a lot of people are extremely cautious these days


----------



## Frederick

doctoremmet said:


> I was accused of this more or less the other day. All because I do not hide my enthusiasm for certain libraries / developers. I guess a lot of people are extremely cautious these days


About 5 or 6 months ago I thought you may have been hired to keep the VI-Control forums going. Spreading love for many developers as well as giving many posters positive feedback... And I thought if that were the case indeed you were doing an awesome job.


----------



## ed buller

It's a little bit sad when IF you really love a product and post about it you get accused of being a shill !........it's a slippery slope...i'm old enough to remember Northern Sounds

best

e


----------



## doctoremmet

Frederick said:


> About 5 or 6 months ago I thought you may have been hired to keep the VI-Control forums going. Spreading love for many developers as well as giving many posters positive feedback... And I thought if that were the case indeed you were doing an awesome job.


Haha. Well, I was banned at some point because basically (a) I was seen as someone who was showing “open defiance” against some rule or other and (b) because I had posted 3000+ messages over the course of a couple of months. So I doubt whether most people really appreciated my spam. Secondly, the main reason for me frequenting these parts is that I was mainly lying in my (hospital) bed. That’s why I added “I talk too much” to my profile, in hopes that people do not take me too seriously. Because they really shouldn’t. Although I do love my 8dio, Chris Hein, XSample, Waverunner and Karoryfer samples haha. Take THAT serious at least. ❤


----------



## Frederick

doctoremmet said:


> Haha. Well, I was banned at some point because basically (a) I was seen as someone who was showing “open defiance” against some rule or other and (b) because I had posted 3000+ messages over the course of a couple of months. So I doubt whether most people really appreciated my spam. Secondly, the main reason for me frequenting these parts is that I was mainly lying in my (hospital) bed. That’s why I added “I talk too much” to my profile, in hopes that people do not take me too seriously. Because they really shouldn’t. Although I do love my 8dio, Chris Hein, XSample, Waverunner and Karoryfer samples haha. Take THAT serious at least. ❤


Aren't you forgetting Aaron Venture?


----------



## doctoremmet

Frederick said:


> Aren't you forgetting Aaron Venture?


Aaron Venture for sure. Denise Audio plugins. Sampletekk Tom Waits pianos. UVI Falcon. Cherry Audio Voltage Modular. Unfiltered Audio. Baby Audio. Noone can accuse me of not having a whole lotta love. Some might say I’m a slut.


----------



## doctoremmet

Not forgetting Ben Osterhouse. But enought with derailing this fine thread haha. Maybe the thing I love most is my ego. Okay, on that bombshell... outta here 🤣


----------



## paulthomson

erikradbo said:


> Increasingly the marketing departments in large corporations have focused on influencing the opinion through new channels. It’s not something they brag about but it’s also not a secret. Sample libraries are nowadays big business and there are many big companies with huge marketing budgets, and one of the the biggest marketing division in the industry is no doubt the one over at SA.
> 
> Of course they have people trying to steer the opinion away from negative criticism and question bad reviews of their products, since that’s their job. Of course these people work through different channels such as social media and forums. This is not to accuse anyone or make any company look bad, no more so than accusing any other marketing efforts; they are not good or bad per se. But as a consumer it would be naive to believe this industry would be any different than other with big money involved. Influencers are very well paid for a reason.
> 
> No more than everything being said in a tv ad is necessarily true, the opinions in forums and social media is not always the thoughts of a single mind. This is of course not only true for SA but lots of other manufacturers as well. Criticism against some companies seems to always be drowned in a sea of disagreement.



Hi Erik -

Im lurking here! I appreciate all discussion in both directions - even if I think a review is horribly unfair there still might be some useful ideas in there that can inform how we can make stuff better.

Just a sidebar - the central concept of BBC is educational and the mode switching to allow it's use in that environment.

That’s probably clear from discover. It needed to be an all in one package, and a perfect starting place for people to learn and progress, but for the Pro edition to be a very useable pro end tool as well.

Personally - although I’m clearly going to be biased - I think it succeeds in this aim. Nothing is perfect however!!

Now - as for the marketing - I’ve specifically told Mike that we don’t want any censorship in our threads. Nothing is deleted on our request. Everyone who posts here from Spitfire is clearly identified. No employees from SF post here anonymously in the manner suggested. They would be in serious trouble if they did. (However - I genuinely don’t think anyone who works with me would dream of doing this.)

Christian and I doubtless have many faults! But lying to people and tricking them into buying things under false pretences is absolutely not one of them. We have never, and will never allow or condone shilling in this manner. To be honest - I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I went about life like that.


I’m so proud of everyone I work with. They are all honourable and diligent people who take massive pride in what they do - that’s what sets the fire in my belly every morning raring to go. I love what I do and I know I’m very lucky indeed to be able to do something I love for a living.

I rarely chip in on threads outside my domain! You’ll have noticed it’s only when I think something is both wrong and unfairly not representative of the work of the people I work with and care about. You might think - well it’s a bit pointless really - it’s a forum - and isn’t this just Quixotic behaviour!!

Hey ho!! Not trying to change anyone’s mind over the actual library, I remember Hans’ immortal advice on playing tracks to directors - “you can’t persuade someone to like something!”

But just wanted to clear up the shill thing. Believe it or not we have recently been the victim of this. But we will never be the perpetrator.

Anyway - I should probably stop rambling!

Respect to all

P


----------



## Zero&One

I don't think it was ever revealed (or even hinted) as an educational platform, and that it would be broken down into smaller versions. If I had known that I'd have waited.
'This is just the beginning' made me think, oh... even more is coming! Most forum users thought that, you can see it from the mega thread when questions about it were raised, the default answer was 'this is just the beginning!'.
Sadly, it was just reduced. Cheaper. Free plugin to late adopters. But we got a blue tint. Nothing changed for us, except the plugin was fixed.

The AR release seems to be going in the other direction, how BBC should have. A good move.


----------



## paulthomson

Zero&One said:


> I don't think it was ever revealed (or even hinted) as an educational platform, and that it would be broken down into smaller versions. If I had known that I'd have waited.
> 'This is just the beginning' made me think, oh... even more is coming! Most forum users thought that, you can see it from the mega thread when questions about it were raised, the default answer was 'this is just the beginning!'.
> Sadly, it was just reduced. Cheaper. Free plugin to late adopters. But we got a blue tint. Nothing changed for us, except the plugin was fixed.
> 
> The AR release seems to be going in the other direction, how BBC should have. A good move.


You don’t have long to wait for a pretty chunky update!!

“free to late adopters” - well if you are comparing the 600gb version to the 200mb version then yea I guess!


----------



## Zero&One

paulthomson said:


> You don’t have long to wait for a pretty chunky update!!
> 
> “free to late adopters” - well if you are comparing the 600gb version to the 200mb version then yea I guess!



That's cool.
I was hinting at the Aperture freebie 1 month later. Not that I'm still bitter about that


----------



## AndyP

peladio said:


> You'll discover that ignore function makes this forum much more enjoyable..fanboys can become really annoying
> 
> 
> 
> Suuuure
> 
> But I'm surprised there wasn't a 13 second black screen teaser with website countdown to announce the update..


It reminds me of the bass flute in the Facebook post that Daniel James was totally crazy about (and then wasn't part of the release).


----------



## AndyP

paulthomson said:


> Just a sidebar - the central concept of BBC is educational and the mode switching to allow it's use in that environment.


I would like to believe that and the concept is good! 

But the library was advertised differently at the beginning! A game changer has to deliver exactly that (I have a "slightly" different opinion).

I don't know any other library that causes as much controversy as BBCSO, which IMO to a large extent is related to marketing (higher, faster, better, game changer).

The good thing is, everyone may have and say his opinion. What I do not understand is how users approach each other so personally.
Somehow this has increased over time and I find that sad (not your fault).

At least you take a stand on criticism, that's good.


----------



## Rory

paulthomson said:


> Just a sidebar - the central concept of BBC is educational and the mode switching to allow it's use in that environment.
> 
> That’s probably clear from discover. It needed to be an all in one package, and a perfect starting place for people to learn and progress, but for the Pro edition to be a very useable pro end tool as well.
> 
> Personally - although I’m clearly going to be biased - I think it succeeds in this aim. Nothing is perfect however!!



Perhaps the pandemic has thrown a bit of a wrench/spanner into things, but I'm interested in following where Discover goes as a concept. My local school district alone has over one million students.


----------



## gives19

paulthomson said:


> Hi Erik -
> 
> Im lurking here! I appreciate all discussion in both directions - even if I think a review is horribly unfair there still might be some useful ideas in there that can inform how we can make stuff better.
> 
> Just a sidebar - the central concept of BBC is educational and the mode switching to allow it's use in that environment.
> 
> That’s probably clear from discover. It needed to be an all in one package, and a perfect starting place for people to learn and progress, but for the Pro edition to be a very useable pro end tool as well.
> 
> Personally - although I’m clearly going to be biased - I think it succeeds in this aim. Nothing is perfect however!!
> 
> Now - as for the marketing - I’ve specifically told Mike that we don’t want any censorship in our threads. Nothing is deleted on our request. Everyone who posts here from Spitfire is clearly identified. No employees from SF post here anonymously in the manner suggested. They would be in serious trouble if they did. (However - I genuinely don’t think anyone who works with me would dream of doing this.)
> 
> Christian and I doubtless have many faults! But lying to people and tricking them into buying things under false pretences is absolutely not one of them. We have never, and will never allow or condone shilling in this manner. To be honest - I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I went about life like that.
> 
> 
> I’m so proud of everyone I work with. They are all honourable and diligent people who take massive pride in what they do - that’s what sets the fire in my belly every morning raring to go. I love what I do and I know I’m very lucky indeed to be able to do something I love for a living.
> 
> I rarely chip in on threads outside my domain! You’ll have noticed it’s only when I think something is both wrong and unfairly not representative of the work of the people I work with and care about. You might think - well it’s a bit pointless really - it’s a forum - and isn’t this just Quixotic behaviour!!
> 
> Hey ho!! Not trying to change anyone’s mind over the actual library, I remember Hans’ immortal advice on playing tracks to directors - “you can’t persuade someone to like something!”
> 
> But just wanted to clear up the shill thing. Believe it or not we have recently been the victim of this. But we will never be the perpetrator.
> 
> Anyway - I should probably stop rambling!
> 
> Respect to all
> 
> P


Hi Paul, Greetings from the USA West Coast. I became familiar with your products as a pretty busy composer and sound designer who has worked in the industry for years. I used a lot of 8dio stuff and before that a ton of Spectrasonics libraries back in the 90's. I go way back to the Emulator II and 1V. Back when you had to load files in with CDROM's Ahh. Those were the days..LOL.. 

I really appreciate all the libraries I have now and because I actually learned my craft by listening to music with my parents, both musicians. My mother was a pianist, who I learned piano from. Also performing, in orchestras, jazz ensembles and playing studio sessions at a trumpet player in Los Angeles. I feel fortunate to have been in the industry in a time when you had to actually have skills to even work and not rely on loops, and computers. So grateful for that. I love all of the choices I have made with Spifire Audio libraries. My philosophy is that it's a toolbox. You use what works. When I started out.. I would do commercials in NYC where I worked for a couple of years with some simple samplers. It's not the horn, it's the player and you have to find "YOUR" own voice in the industry, where everyone seem to be sounding so similar. I enjoy hearing things that are simple and serve the picture and not the composer. Anyway, that is my rant back and really enjoyed your response and am sure you will continue to help everyone with their persuits in their chosen field. G


----------



## Mike Fox

@bfreepro I think your review struck a nerve. 

Seriously though, keep doing what you're doing. Don't ever betray your own opinions or honest feelings when it comes to these reviews. You're obviously going to get dirt for it from people (including the developers) who feel offended, hostile, or somehow wronged by your words, but at least you'll be able to sleep at night, because you were true to your self, and that's all that matters.

It was your money you spent on the library. It was your time you spent on the library. It was your effort you invested into writing this review.

So FUCK what other people think.


----------



## bfreepro

AndyP said:


> I would like to believe that and the concept is good!
> 
> But the library was advertised differently at the beginning! A game changer has to deliver exactly that (I have a "slightly" different opinion).
> 
> I don't know any other library that causes as much controversy as BBCSO, which IMO to a large extent is related to marketing (higher, faster, better, game changer).
> 
> The good thing is, everyone may have and say his opinion. What I do not understand is how users approach each other so personally.
> Somehow this has increased over time and I find that sad (not your fault).
> 
> At least you take a stand on criticism, that's good.


I agree with everything you said 100%. Never once did I get the impression this was meant to be an “educational product” (the core and discovery released after I purchased pro). The marketing simply did not reflect this in any way, whatsoever!
Anyway, I’m genuinely shocked how far this thread has gone, this was never even my intention (imagine you wake up to read comments from Paul Thomson 😂). Just wanted to offer my experience, which is still completely valid. It’s also shocking and ironic to me some people would get upset being labeled a “shill” for liking a product, and then in the same breath, turn around and label someone’s critiques as a “hatchet job” for disliking certain elements of a product. I think they are BOTH wrong and completely irrational reactions, but I specifically noticed some taking offense at the former while personally engaging in the latter. This is simply stunning to me. I never in my life personally thought anyone was a shill or anything, I just know the monumental status this company holds, and how irrational some of the hate can be, as well as some of the hype. Bound to happen. Still love the company, still love a lot of their products, and I still LOVE writing reviews and criticizing even the products I love, and I’m definitely not gonna stop doing it... even if many can’t seem to wrap their minds around differing perspectives and opinions, that’s not my problem 

I’ll ALWAYS be open to hear contradicting views and counterpoints presented in a respectful manner without jumping to conclusions or tearing each other down with ridiculous and baseless accusations. Just like Paul, and many of you here, I fucking love what I do and am insanely passionate about music and the tools we use to create our art. We all have that in common at the end of the day, let’s not lose sight of that. Please.


----------



## jaketanner

paulthomson said:


> You don’t have long to wait for a pretty chunky update!!
> 
> “free to late adopters” - well if you are comparing the 600gb version to the 200mb version then yea I guess!


Glad to hear, because in Pro Tools, it's a bit of a RAM issue, plus adjusting the right configuration within the player...I had Agnus help me a bit, but then in the end he just said wait for the update..LOL. Looking forward to it Paul!!


----------



## jaketanner

@paulthomson ...one thing that would be FANTASTIC...IF you are not able to give us a mic render similar to the SINE player, then how about a mic LINK feature, that allows us to a/b/c between different mic positions almost instantly (barring load time). I find it quite difficult and time consuming to test out what mic positions work versus others...ALSO, please include a SOLO feature for each mic position...but a solo that X-cancels the other mic. So let's say I have a tree up and want to test it against a spill mic...without having to scroll through the pages, I can just solo one of the mics.... Thanks man...I know you will do this )) LOL


----------



## andyhy

paulthomson said:


> Hi Erik -
> 
> Im lurking here! I appreciate all discussion in both directions - even if I think a review is horribly unfair there still might be some useful ideas in there that can inform how we can make stuff better.
> 
> Just a sidebar - the central concept of BBC is educational and the mode switching to allow it's use in that environment.
> 
> That’s probably clear from discover. It needed to be an all in one package, and a perfect starting place for people to learn and progress, but for the Pro edition to be a very useable pro end tool as well.
> 
> Personally - although I’m clearly going to be biased - I think it succeeds in this aim. Nothing is perfect however!!
> 
> Now - as for the marketing - I’ve specifically told Mike that we don’t want any censorship in our threads. Nothing is deleted on our request. Everyone who posts here from Spitfire is clearly identified. No employees from SF post here anonymously in the manner suggested. They would be in serious trouble if they did. (However - I genuinely don’t think anyone who works with me would dream of doing this.)
> 
> Christian and I doubtless have many faults! But lying to people and tricking them into buying things under false pretences is absolutely not one of them. We have never, and will never allow or condone shilling in this manner. To be honest - I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I went about life like that.
> 
> 
> I’m so proud of everyone I work with. They are all honourable and diligent people who take massive pride in what they do - that’s what sets the fire in my belly every morning raring to go. I love what I do and I know I’m very lucky indeed to be able to do something I love for a living.
> 
> I rarely chip in on threads outside my domain! You’ll have noticed it’s only when I think something is both wrong and unfairly not representative of the work of the people I work with and care about. You might think - well it’s a bit pointless really - it’s a forum - and isn’t this just Quixotic behaviour!!
> 
> Hey ho!! Not trying to change anyone’s mind over the actual library, I remember Hans’ immortal advice on playing tracks to directors - “you can’t persuade someone to like something!”
> 
> But just wanted to clear up the shill thing. Believe it or not we have recently been the victim of this. But we will never be the perpetrator.
> 
> Anyway - I should probably stop rambling!
> 
> Respect to all
> 
> P



As a relative newcomer to this forum I have to say that this review made somewhat depressing reading and imho amounted to a combination of character assassination and conspiracy theory with, I accept, a few useful points about the product sprinkled in here and there, a contrast to the more constructive style of review I encounter elsewhere in this forum.

I have nothing but praise for Spitfire Audio, for your inventiveness, for continually pushing the boundaries of what is possible, for your sense of adventure, for the clear love you have for what you do. 

The pandemic with its lockdowns has been particularly challenging for any business to satisfy the needs of every customer so I consider that what you, Christian and the whole SA team have achieved is truly amazing.

For the record I have upgraded to the professional version of BBSO with complete confidence. I'm sure you will address the issues in due course. I got on board with Chamber Strings and am excited to join you also for the AROOF journey.

In reality a single library rarely meets every composer's needs. They all have their strengths and weaknesses so we learn to blend different libraries recorded in different locations. BBCSO meets substantially both my educational and compositional aspirations and will sit nicely alongside complementary libraries from a range of developers. It has earned its place.

Keep up the good work Paul

A


----------



## bfreepro

andyhy said:


> As a relative newcomer to this forum I have to say that this review made somewhat depressing reading and imho amounted to a combination of character assassination and conspiracy theory with, I accept, a few useful points about the product sprinkled in here and there, a contrast to the more constructive style of review I encounter elsewhere in this forum.
> 
> I have nothing but praise for Spitfire Audio, for your inventiveness, for continually pushing the boundaries of what is possible, for your sense of adventure, for the clear love you have for what you do.
> 
> The pandemic with its lockdowns has been particularly challenging for any business to satisfy the needs of every customer so I consider that what you, Christian and the whole SA team have achieved is truly amazing.
> 
> For the record I have upgraded to the professional version of BBSO with complete confidence. I'm sure you will address the issues in due course. I got on board with Chamber Strings and am excited to join you also for the AROOF journey.
> 
> In reality a single library rarely meets every composer's needs. They all have their strengths and weaknesses so we learn to blend different libraries recorded in different locations. BBCSO meets substantially both my educational and compositional aspirations and will sit nicely alongside complementary libraries from a range of developers. It has earned its place.
> 
> Keep up the good work Paul
> 
> A



@andyhy wait, I gotta clarify here, you thought my review contained conspiracy theories and examples of character assassination, or the comments contained in this thread did?


----------



## Peros

Zero&One said:


> I don't think it was ever revealed (or even hinted) as an educational platform, and that it would be broken down into smaller versions. If I had known that I'd have waited.
> 'This is just the beginning' made me think, oh... even more is coming! Most forum users thought that, you can see it from the mega thread when questions about it were raised, the default answer was 'this is just the beginning!'.
> Sadly, it was just reduced. Cheaper. Free plugin to late adopters. But we got a blue tint. Nothing changed for us, except the plugin was fixed.
> 
> The AR release seems to be going in the other direction, how BBC should have. A good move.



Exactly That!!!


----------



## andyhy

bfreepro said:


> @andyhy wait, I gotta clarify here, you thought my review contained conspiracy theories and examples of character assassination, or the comments contained in this thread did?


It was simply unfair and undermined the whole point of doing the review. If this style is to become the norm in this forum I will gladly leave. I'm not going to say any more on the subject.


----------



## bfreepro

andyhy said:


> It was simply unfair and undermined the whole point of doing the review. If this style is to become the norm in this forum I will gladly leave. I'm not going to say any more on the subject.


Hmmm those are some wild accusations. If you’re directing those towards me, seriously, shame on you. I had simply hoped you’d clarify your statements, I was not trying to start an argument. I agree that’s what came of it in this thread, but if that’s all you got out of my review, well quite frankly that’s complete and utter bullshit and NOT ONCE did I resort to any of those tactics (character assassination?? Conspiracy theories?!). Such accusations are asinine and completely uncalled for, not to mention they completely delegitimize any valid point you were trying to make, which I truthfully would have been happy to hear! SMFH 🙄🙄🙄🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️


----------



## paulthomson

Thanks for your kind words Andy.

Regarding “hyped beyond belief” and all of the other odd conclusions - I thought we were pretty clear about it being

“a solid foundation in one plugin”

“A universal starting point”

etc.









Spitfire Audio Collaborates With BBC Symphony Orchestra


Resulting sound library provides a solid foundation for any composer's toolkit and workflow




sonicstate.com






Anyway I’m checking out of this thread - have a great weekend everyone.

P


----------



## bfreepro

paulthomson said:


> Thanks for your kind words Andy.
> 
> Regarding “hyped beyond belief” and all of the other odd conclusions - I thought we were pretty clear about it being
> 
> “a solid foundation in one plugin”
> 
> “A universal starting point”
> 
> etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spitfire Audio Collaborates With BBC Symphony Orchestra
> 
> 
> Resulting sound library provides a solid foundation for any composer's toolkit and workflow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sonicstate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I’m checking out of this thread - have a great weekend everyone.
> 
> P


Hi Paul, it really was hyped beyond belief, many can attest to that, whether it was the fault of your company or the community, there is simply no denying it. I fully stand by everything I wrote, and will gladly point out the errors I found with the samples to you or your support team with audio examples, videos, whatever need be.






BBCSO Legato


Am I doing something wrong here but BBCSO legato sounds pretty terrible when playing in live!! Here is a quick example between Soaring strings, EWHO diamond strings, Spitfire Chamber strings and BBCSO strings Violin 1 legato patches. The part was played in live on a piano for each one. Soaring...




vi-control.net





A quick search also finds this thread mentioning poor quality control and sloppy editing (their words, NOT mine, I even mention in my review mistakes are bound to happen with something of this scope and scale).

This review was not meant to attack your company, ambition, or question your passion or intentions. This was a clear analysis on whether the BBCSO is worth it and offers the true improvements in sound and workflow that it has promised. Your official website claims this is your _flagship orchestral library_, which to me claims this is the best you have to offer. This is quoted directly from the article you yourself have cited: “*Resulting sound library provides a solid foundation for any composer's toolkit and workflow”*

Plus, even bolder claims:

“It is so much more than a product release; rather it is the start of a movement.”

“As a collaborative platform that is perfectly positioned to take orchestral music into the future, sampling has truly arrived and the possibilities are endless.”

“Has pulled out all the stops with BBC SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA, creating a future-proof classic comprising the finest strings, woodwinds, brass, and percussion.”

I simply do not believe the plug-in fulfills these claims, and if someone tells me that’s not hyping the product, well, that’s simply a lie. Which is totally fine. Companies are expected to do this and I never fault your company for building up hype. It just didn’t fulfill the promises (YET.... I even say that in its current state I dislike the plug-in, but love some of the samples, and am hopeful it will continue to be improved). Still, it’s been perceived by some as harsh and that’s a totally fair analysis.
I’ve already had a lengthy support discussion about the RAM use. I have nothing to lie about or make up, I also genuinely appreciate you chiming in here, but I also know I have had many private messages from people who agree with me and have come to the exact same conclusion with their own experiences, and there’s really nothing odd or uncommon about my conclusions despite what you wish to believe I’m afraid, as I am perpetually clear what I expected from this plug-in (directly from your company’s marketing and bold promises) and what I found were its shortcomings, as well as lumping praise on the aspects I throughly enjoyed! I also know your company can more than handle some very light criticism, as I’ve seen FAR worse criticism of the product as well both here and other areas online, like this thread with a measly 2 pages of responses but a whole ton of criticism and zero of the vitriol directed to the original poster, possibly because he’s Daniel James and I’m not 😂






Spitfire BBC Symphony Orchestra - FIRST LOOK (In depth)


Hey all, I recently finished going over everything in the BBCSO by Spitfire on a live stream in front of a live audience. The whole stream took about 7 hours so for your sanity I actually broke up the videos into the sections of the orchestra I want to cover. Hope you guys find it useful...




vi-control.net





and I also know Spitfire takes criticism to heart and makes improvements which is very welcome and appreciated!


----------



## erikradbo

paulthomson said:


> Hi Erik -
> 
> Im lurking here! I appreciate all discussion in both directions - even if I think a review is horribly unfair there still might be some useful ideas in there that can inform how we can make stuff better.
> 
> Just a sidebar - the central concept of BBC is educational and the mode switching to allow it's use in that environment.
> 
> That’s probably clear from discover. It needed to be an all in one package, and a perfect starting place for people to learn and progress, but for the Pro edition to be a very useable pro end tool as well.
> 
> Personally - although I’m clearly going to be biased - I think it succeeds in this aim. Nothing is perfect however!!
> 
> Now - as for the marketing - I’ve specifically told Mike that we don’t want any censorship in our threads. Nothing is deleted on our request. Everyone who posts here from Spitfire is clearly identified. No employees from SF post here anonymously in the manner suggested. They would be in serious trouble if they did. (However - I genuinely don’t think anyone who works with me would dream of doing this.)
> 
> Christian and I doubtless have many faults! But lying to people and tricking them into buying things under false pretences is absolutely not one of them. We have never, and will never allow or condone shilling in this manner. To be honest - I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I went about life like that.
> 
> 
> I’m so proud of everyone I work with. They are all honourable and diligent people who take massive pride in what they do - that’s what sets the fire in my belly every morning raring to go. I love what I do and I know I’m very lucky indeed to be able to do something I love for a living.
> 
> I rarely chip in on threads outside my domain! You’ll have noticed it’s only when I think something is both wrong and unfairly not representative of the work of the people I work with and care about. You might think - well it’s a bit pointless really - it’s a forum - and isn’t this just Quixotic behaviour!!
> 
> Hey ho!! Not trying to change anyone’s mind over the actual library, I remember Hans’ immortal advice on playing tracks to directors - “you can’t persuade someone to like something!”
> 
> But just wanted to clear up the shill thing. Believe it or not we have recently been the victim of this. But we will never be the perpetrator.
> 
> Anyway - I should probably stop rambling!
> 
> Respect to all
> 
> P



Hi Paul,

Thank you for your reply, reading it I immediately felt a bit bad. I realize I could have been less assertive in how I expressed myself (less "of course they..."). For the record though, I never accused you or any manufacturer of lying, I just expressed my assumption that I believed you also used this kind of marketing given the size of your business. To me that's an unfortunate part of the game now, and I'm always cautious when I read opinions. I wish this wasn't the case.

The line of thinking (apologies in advance for going all bullet point-y):
1. many big companies uses these new channels to market their things without officially calling it adverts (influencers being the most obvious example), and 
2. Spitfire Audio is a big company. Add to that
3. my subjective experience of how whenever spitfire is criticized in here, the reactions are stronger than with other manufacturers, then
4. it's a pretty short leap to believe there is some marketing forces going on.

No lying, just the kind of marketing we - unfortunately - have been getting used to. But, given your response I realize I was wrong, otherwise you would actually be lying, and I have no reason the believe you are. 

So, two thumbs up for not using these undercover marketing strategies, as well as a congrats for having so many loyal followers. I do have quite a few of your libraries myself, and especially the OA ones and Tundra are quite fantastic.

From a chilly Swede(n),
Erik


----------



## MGdepp

paulthomson said:


> I rarely chip in on threads outside my domain! You’ll have noticed it’s only when I think something is both wrong and unfairly not representative of the work of the people I work with and care about. You might think - well it’s a bit pointless really - it’s a forum - and isn’t this just Quixotic behaviour!!


Well, that is pretty much a euphemism for getting involved in threads where negative aspects of your products and your company are discussed. These kinds of threads exist for most of the competition as well. And while most have the policy of not commenting these (which is a wise decision), SA has a history of not being able to resist that temptation. I can only speculate what the reason is for this ...

Some could argue that this is not a problem as the developer is also allowed to share his POV. However, I strongly disagree with that notion for many reasons. First, a developer always has a fan club of people. So, it never is a fair fight. It is not the one opinion, rather an amplified version of that. Also, you can see in many occasions that the moderation of the forum is not impartial (however often it may claim that to be the case). There are many examples of this. Maybe they prove me wrong by not moderating this thread for once ... who knows?!

I think what your competitors do is much smarter. There are some discussions here about others, but they quickly de-escalate with only a few exceptions. With any SA thread it is the other way around. On the one hand, this could be seen as a useful marketing tool, because these threads make SA appear to be much bigger then the competition- similarly to all of these endless announcement and teaser threads. But is any publicity really good publicity, as they say? Hmm ... it could be the case, but I sure hope that doesn’t come without a price.


----------



## paulthomson

Thanks Erik!

Ok really must go now and enjoy Saturday but one last thought Brian - which makes me think we’re in a context confusion here.

The movement and change we’re talking about is not just among our rarefied world of hq mock-ups, it’s more that for example over 220k people worldwide are using Discover - many of whom had not ever tried to write music with orchestral sounds before.

I’m massively proud and excited by this - I think it’s something really significant.

All best


P


----------



## doctoremmet

paulthomson said:


> Thanks Erik!
> 
> Ok really must go now and enjoy Saturday but one last thought Brian - which makes me think we’re in a context confusion here.
> 
> The movement and change we’re talking about is not just among our rarefied world of hq mock-ups, it’s more that for example over 220k people worldwide are using Discover - many of whom had not ever tried to write music with orchestral sounds before.
> 
> I’m massively proud and excited by this - I think it’s something really significant.
> 
> All best
> 
> 
> P


Enjoy your Saturday Paul!


----------



## bfreepro

paulthomson said:


> Thanks Erik!
> 
> Ok really must go now and enjoy Saturday but one last thought Brian - which makes me think we’re in a context confusion here.
> 
> The movement and change we’re talking about is not just among our rarefied world of hq mock-ups, it’s more that for example over 220k people worldwide are using Discover - many of whom had not ever tried to write music with orchestral sounds before.
> 
> I’m massively proud and excited by this - I think it’s something really significant.
> 
> All best
> 
> 
> P


Fully understand that now, but no discover was promised or announced in the initial release, which is why I would have not considered that fact when reading into the claims and purchasing BBCSO pro  Much respect to you and I sincerely admire your passion and ambition and truly appreciate your responses. Thank you Paul.


----------



## cola2410

bfreepro said:


> Thanks for chiming in. Remember, the review is just, ya know, my opinions. I most certainly have my sample drives excluded from my anti-virus, there's really no need to be condescending dude :D. If you load one patch, it doesn't take THAT long, but its nowhere near instantaneous. Multiply that by a bunch of instances for a full orchestra template, it takes much longer to load their player than Kontakt, so no, a player is NOT "just a player", as SINE and Synchron Player, as well as Kontakt, are SIGNIFICANTLY better optimized.
> 
> I'm not the only one who notices these jarring inconstancies, so it's really pretty audacious of you to come and say someone's opinions are "way off", just give your take and we can have a nice discussion about it. I own many woodwinds that sound SIGNIFICANTLY better than the BBCSO, I have absolutely no reason to make shit up here. Spitfire Symphonic, Berlin Woodwinds, VSL woods, all miles better and more natural sounding than BBCSO, and without the glaring lack of dynamic layers and shoddy legato.



Back to tech. I had a couple of similar issues with other apps but no issues with SF player so far. I'd like to mention that PCs are somehow for people looking after their budgets and having better knowledge how the computers actually work. Take a look at Linus video about how to build better Mac and save several grand for a car. Apple was always more prohibitive in terms of letting people get into their computers. SSDs could be SATA or PCI-E (2/4/8/16), and first is 500mb/sec and second could be 5000mb/sec, that's quite a difference! In addition, some motherboards use shared bandwidth across PCI-E and SATA along with USB 3.0 so you could easily fall into lower speeds if your configuration is loaded with lots of other bandwidth and power hungry devices like GPUs. Memory incompatibility and chipset driver issues also may be the reasons of low performance overall. I would also recommend looking at free space in your SSDs as in general they perform slightly worse if filled up to certain threshold, especially when writing to them. Overall, there are many reasons you could experience bad performance and it's not necessarily bad-written software.
PCs are typically more friendly to enthusiasts and geeks of all sorts but this comes at a cost.


----------



## bfreepro

cola2410 said:


> Back to tech. I had a couple of similar issues with other apps but no issues with SF player so far. I'd like to mention that PCs are somehow for people looking after their budgets and having better knowledge how the computers actually work. Take a look at Linus video about how to build better Mac and save several grand for a car. Apple was always more prohibitive in terms of letting people get into their computers. SSDs could be SATA or PCI-E (2/4/8/16), and first is 500mb/sec and second could be 5000mb/sec, that's quite a difference! In addition, some motherboards use shared bandwidth across PIC-E and SATA along with USB 3.0 so you could easily fall into lower speeds if your configuration is loaded with lots of other bandwidth and power hungry devices like GPUs. Memory incompatibility and chipset driver issues also may be the reasons of low performance overall. I would also recommend looking at free space in your SSDs as in general they perform slightly worse if filled up to certain threshold, especially when writing to them. Overall, there are may reasons you could experience bad performance and it's not necessarily bad-written software.
> PCs are typically more friendly to enthusiasts and geeks of all sorts but this comes at a cost.



Correct. However, when one plugin is the odd man out and I've tried multiple settings and fixes, it becomes impossible to ignore. I've got my samples spread across 6 SSDs, one PCI-E, some SATA, and some USB. All of them have ample amounts of free space and are all fairly new. I've relocated my sample folders as well to different drives, tested read and write speeds, tried quite a few different things. Still hopeful to find the solution. It's just very clear to me that the Spitfire Plugin can be the odd man out here, it not only happens with BBCSO but with Hans Zimmer Strings and Symphonic Motions, all loading from separate SSD drives.


----------



## cola2410

bfreepro said:


> Correct. However, when one plugin is the odd man out and I've tried multiple settings and fixes, it becomes impossible to ignore. I've got my samples spread across 6 SSDs, one PCI-E, some SATA, and some USB. All of them have ample amounts of free space and are all fairly new. I've relocated my sample folders as well to different drives, tested read and write speeds, tried quite a few different things. Still hopeful to find the solution. It's just very clear to me that the Spitfire Plugin can be the odd man out here, it not only happens with BBCSO but with Hans Zimmer Strings and Symphonic Motions, all loading from separate SSD drives.



Have you tried to play with multi-core settings in BIOS, I mean virtualization, sleep settings, etc, in case cores behave irrational?


----------



## bfreepro

cola2410 said:


> Have you tried to play with multi-core settings in BIOS, I mean virtualization, sleep settings, etc, in case cores behave irrational?


A tiny bit but not extensively. Anything in particular to look for or adjust? Gonna try a few basic things again later on. Don't like messing too much with those in case I muck it all up 😆, but would love to find a solution


----------



## cola2410

bfreepro said:


> A tiny bit but not extensively. Anything in particular to look for or adjust? Gonna try a few basic things again later on. Don't like messing too much with those in case I muck it all up 😆, but would love to find a solution



Try to set one core - one thread configuration, switch off virtualization, set overclocking to auto or default settings. There is a bunch of things to play with. In fact, I was having similar problems with Ableton, U-he and a couple of other plugins that had improper multi-core support but the issue could be in the unbalanced system itself.


----------



## Kwamena

@paulthompson

Also if I'm not just doing something wrong I would love a drop down menu of individual articulations so I can just download say "Marcato Violins" instead of all of the articulations and then having to delete them all bar the one I use everytime I load an instrument. Template helps but I don't want to have a huge template and a lot of core users especially are probably in similar position (I have pro). This in addition to bug fixes which I'm sure is coming.



jaketanner said:


> @paulthomson ...one thing that would be FANTASTIC...IF you are not able to give us a mic render similar to the SINE player, then how about a mic LINK feature, that allows us to a/b/c between different mic positions almost instantly (barring load time). I find it quite difficult and time consuming to test out what mic positions work versus others...ALSO, please include a SOLO feature for each mic position...but a solo that X-cancels the other mic. So let's say I have a tree up and want to test it against a spill mic...without having to scroll through the pages, I can just solo one of the mics.... Thanks man...I know you will do this )) LOL


----------



## bfreepro

hbjdk said:


> @Daniel James also experience problems with the Spitfire player.



Saw that one  Funny thing.. I don't really have problems with Abbey Road One yet... just the others I mentioned haha. Oof!


----------



## ed buller

bfreepro said:


> Hi Paul, it really was hyped beyond belief, many can attest to that, whether it was the fault of your company or the community, there is simply no denying it.



he is denying he hyped it...They just do what they normally do and get everybody wound up about a new release. Yes in many ways a game changer. Complete Orchestra for 600 sods, recorded by a world renowned orchestra at their own studio. Multiple mics , etc etc.....THIS FORUM was doing the hyping...cos people do..they get excited...or pissed off...tis the way of the world...but it's really unfair to blame Paul and Spitfire I think. They didn't mislead you !

best

ed


----------



## bfreepro

ed buller said:


> he is denying he hyped it...They just do what they normally do and get everybody wound up about a new release. Yes in many ways a game changer. Complete Orchestra for 600 sods, recorded by a world renowned orchestra at their own studio. Multiple mics , etc etc.....THIS FORUM was doing the hyping...cos people do..they get excited...or pissed off...tis the way of the world...but it's really unfair to blame Paul and Spitfire I think. They didn't mislead you !
> 
> best
> 
> ed


It certainly is not unfair to judge a product based on its claims that it will completely change the way you work, no matter what your skill level is. Of course, you're right, any claim is subject to individual interpretation. When did I blame Paul though? I blame the product for failing to live up to expectations, and I blame myself for expecting it to. In the very statement you quoted, I said "whether it was the fault of your company or the community", not placing blame on anyone, as we all know it's a combination of both. I say multiple times, in my review, and in this thread, that I respect the company, their ambition, what they tried to do, etc, etc, etc. If they advertised this as an educational tool for those who want to learn more about orchestration and samples, as opposed to something that's literally for any and every composer on the market and WILL be different and better than what you had before, we would not be having this discussion, I guarantee it.


----------



## ed buller

bfreepro said:


> Of course, you're right, any claim is subject to individual interpretation. When did I blame Paul though? I blame the product for failing to live up to expectations, and I blame myself for expecting it to.



This really is the problem isn't it ?..Many are very happy with the product..you aren't...that's really all there is to say...all the rest is I feel pointless !

best

ed


----------



## AndyP

hbjdk said:


> @Daniel James also experience problems with the Spitfire player.



That's just the way Daniel James is. And it doesn't matter if someone agrees with him at any point, it's his opinion. And DJ is no beginner who uses a library for the first time.

Luckily it's not like in some countries where you go to jail for a critical hotel review.

Even a developer must be able to stand that.


----------



## AndyP

hbjdk said:


> Nitpicking maybe, but it’s not his _opinion_ that the Spitfire player is the problem, it’s his _experience with it._


Thanks, that too of course!

Maintaining objectivity becomes increasingly difficult with each escalation and finding the point of saying "ok, I accept the criticism even if I have a different opinion / experience" is something everyone should remind themselves of from time to time.

This is true for developers, reviewers, and users alike.

That applies somehow to all of us.


----------



## Synetos

Nothing said here has, or ever will, stop me from buying anything from Spitfire. I really like their libraries, and own several of them. I think the video's they do are awesome. It is often why I buy the product. I like seeing it in action from the creative perspective, and I can see myself using it.

I have enough libraries to know they all have flaws. One persons opinion is not truth, and I am not a sheep. I dont buy stuff just cause Hans Zimmer likes it. I buy samples that I think might work toward a vision of the sonic landscape I am trying to create. If they dont work for me, I just consider it part of the path to finding the libraries that do.

It's not the libraries fault if I cant achieve my goal using my personal workflow. I say that, because most modern "samples" sound good, but I usually find fault in a library/player that doesn't fit my workflow.

So what. Is it the guitars fault if you are left handed? Ever watch Michael Card play acoustic? He plays a right hand acoustic, upside down. He make amazing music. Instead of buying a left hand guitar, he learned to play his own way.

Life is too short to worry about which sample library to use. Just go make music and adopt a heart of gratitude.


----------



## ed buller

hbjdk said:


> When a sample engine gives cpu spikes of 50% with just one or two patches loaded, as was the case for Daniel James with AR on his 12-core Mac, isn’t it fair to say there’s a problem with that particular sample engine? It’s not like people held back with criticism for EW’s Play engine back in the day (and deservedly so).



If...the problem is related to the software and NOT something unique to Daniel and his set up, then of course. That is why we have forums so people can share issues and complaints. But I suspect the engine is fine and something else was going on as so many people ( including it's creators ) have no problems. 

best

ed


----------



## dcoscina

Mike Fox said:


> @bfreepro I think your review struck a nerve.
> 
> Seriously though, keep doing what you're doing. Don't ever betray your own opinions or honest feelings when it comes to these reviews. You're obviously going to get dirt for it from people (including the developers) who feel offended, hostile, or somehow wronged by your words, but at least you'll be able to sleep at night, because you were true to your self, and that's all that matters.
> 
> It was your money you spent on the library. It was your time you spent on the library. It was your effort you invested into writing this review.
> 
> So FUCK what other people think.


There is no objective truth. It's all subjective. To write as if these things are fact for any and all users of this library is what generated the kind of responses.

There are also ways of articulating a point without it being incendiary. 

Oh and most developers don't "chime in" because they all got run off from this site. I think it's admirable (or masochistic) that Spitfire are still willing to field these types of issues. 

Additionally, if the OP writes his views, well, by virtue of free speech, then aren't others allowed to counter without being indicted as "fanboys" or "covert Spitfire employees?" #doublestandard


----------



## Synetos

hbjdk said:


> When a sample engine gives cpu spikes of 50% with just one or two patches loaded, as was the case for Daniel James with AR on his 12-core Mac, isn’t it fair to say there’s a problem with that particular sample engine? It’s not like people held back with criticism for EW’s Play engine back in the day (and deservedly so).
> 
> Yes, you can adapt as a user, nobody denies that, Daniel James also clearly says so in his video. However some bugs are so big, they can effectively break a professional‘s workflow, I imagine. People who compose for a living simply don’t have time for rendering every other instrument patch in a certain library in order to avoid issues with it; they simply use another library if workarounds prove too time-consuming.


OS-DAW-Drivers-Sample Libraries...these are all in a constant state of motion. If a "professional's" workflow can't accommodate that reality, then perhaps the workflow needs to be refined.

In the 12+ years I have been messing around with all of the above, I have never seen a perfectly stable setup that lasted for more than a short time. It's kinda why I gave up trying to use VEP and the big templates. Hours and hours spent setting up a template and then an element changes out of my control and poof...nothing works. Waste hours and hours trying to figure out why.

Of course, after all that frustration, there is hell to pay to whoever we can accuse. I rarely see a critic rethinking their workflow as the problem. If Daniel James needs to render, then render. If you dont have time to do that, then maybe the rub us that he created a workflow that isnt able to move with the machine.

Sure, sample engines have bugs. But, if you the only one experiencing it, then is it fair to rip the sample library, your computer, or what?

I was crippled in my studio by what turned out to be a network card driver. I was convinced it was Cubase, and wanted to rip on them for a buggy update (which they probably still deserve over and over) but the problem was my motherboard Bios and a nic driver. Not Cubase afterall.

We all have horror stories of our frustrations. Sample engines cant be perfect when there are so many variables out of their control. I am grateful they exist to allow me to create music I couldnt create 20 years ago without lots of connections and money.


----------



## Sean

Without having used BBCSO, I think @bfreepro wrote a review that was fair. He didn't once say "wow this library is a piece of crap." He laid out the things he liked and the things he didn't like. The problem in my opinion is the reaction of some users. Calling it a "hatchet job", "mean spirited", and "coming to the wrong conclusion", accusing him of "character assassination" etc. It's not his fault that you like the brass and he doesn't. It's not his fault he doesn't like some of the woodwinds and you do. So given the response to his valid, fair opinions, I think his defensiveness is understandable.


----------



## bfreepro

dcoscina said:


> To write as if these things are fact for any and all users of this library is what generated the kind of responses.



I know you're not referring to me, as I never once did that and clearly state it's simply MY experience.



Synetos said:


> Sure, sample engines have bugs. But, if you the only one experiencing it, then is it fair to rip the sample library, your computer, or what?



I'm certainly not the only one experiencing issues...



Synetos said:


> If a "professional's" workflow can't accommodate that reality, then perhaps the workflow needs to be refined.
> 
> Of course, after all that frustration, there is hell to pay to whoever we can accuse. I rarely see a critic rethinking their workflow as the problem. If Daniel James needs to render, then render. If you dont have time to do that, then maybe the rub us that he created a workflow that isnt able to move with the machine.



When every other sampler, player, and plugin works without a hiccup in said workflow, it's simply impossible and foolish to ignore the elephant in the room, which is, in this case, the single plugin which causes issue... especially if the plugin is said to be super accessible for all. I feel this is just common sense.


----------



## bfreepro

Sean said:


> Without having used BBCSO, I think @bfreepro wrote a review that was fair. He didn't once say "wow this library is a piece of crap." He laid out the things he liked and the things he didn't like. The problem in my opinion is the reaction of some users. Calling it a "hatchet job", "mean spirited", and "coming to the wrong conclusion", accusing him of "character assassination" etc. It's not his fault that you like the brass and he doesn't. It's not his fault he doesn't like some of the woodwinds and you do. So given the response to his valid, fair opinions, I think his defensiveness is understandable.


Thank you.


----------



## Sean

I like that every time someone complains about issues with the Spitfire player, many people are quick to blame the user for the issues and not Spitfire. "It works fine on my machine so it must be your fault" is not valid logic when it comes to software. It's the same as video games, a game may run well on a lower specced computer and actually run worse on a higher specced computer just because of how the game interacts with that specific hardware. Is it that user's fault that his hardware doesn't work well with the video game? No! Just as it shouldn't be any user's fault that the Spitfire player doesn't work well with their computer (unless it's definitely just a user misconfiguration, which I doubt in most cases).

Just because software works fine on your computer, that doesn't mean it's well optimized! It just happens to be fine for you!


----------



## peladio

Mike Fox said:


> @bfreepro I think your review struck a nerve.
> 
> Seriously though, keep doing what you're doing. Don't ever betray your own opinions or honest feelings when it comes to these reviews. You're obviously going to get dirt for it from people (including the developers) who feel offended, hostile, or somehow wronged by your words, but at least you'll be able to sleep at night, because you were true to your self, and that's all that matters.
> 
> It was your money you spent on the library. It was your time you spent on the library. It was your effort you invested into writing this review.
> 
> So FUCK what other people think.



Completely agreed..I absolutely understand why some people which I loved to read don't post here anymore..I will frequent it less and less for sure

This whole "psssst..why should be thankful to good samaritan developers who don't charge hundreds and thousands for their stuff at all..which we pay for with our hard earned money.." schtick here is really getting on my nerves..

@bfreepro you paid for it and you can say about it whatever you want, I for one value your opinion (and of everyone who paid for it with their money) over any of those NFRs..


----------



## peladio

dcoscina said:


> Additionally, if the OP writes his views, well, by virtue of free speech, then aren't others allowed to counter without being indicted as "fanboys" or "covert Spitfire employees?" #doublestandard



Having an opinion is perfectly fine..trying to silence someone else's because he or she don't happen to agree with you is not..How is this not easy to understand?



dcoscina said:


> I think it's admirable (or masochistic) that Spitfire are still willing to field these types of issues.



Very $urpri$ing indeed..


----------



## Ashermusic

When I worked part time for EW as their Online Coordinator, I had to deal with a lot of criticisms. I always distinguished between those who negative opinions as their opinions and those who posted negative options as empirical facts. I generally left the former alone (unless it was hyperbolic) but I challenged the latter.


----------



## bfreepro

So, this has been insanely fun and truthfully the majority of users here are fucking awesome, and even the ones I disagree with, I respect you all, honestly, even if some kind of "hit below the belt", it's all good and I can take it  Rory though, you're just insufferable. Next month... let's do ABBEY ROAD ONE!!! :D :D :D


----------



## dcoscina

bfreepro said:


> So, this has been insanely fun and truthfully the majority of users here are fucking awesome, and even the ones I disagree with, I respect you all, honestly, even if some kind of "hit below the belt", it's all good and I can take it  Rory though, you're just insufferable. Next month... let's do ABBEY ROAD ONE!!! :D :D :D


It's always great to write about your experiences. Clearly most developers WANT to know if there are issues. I think it gets a little wonky when assertions are made that are speculative rather than fact. 

I write product reviews for Film Score monthly online and have covered products by Orchestral Tools, Spitfire, Audio Imperia, CineSamples, etc etc. I pick the libraries I'm interested in, in the context of how they work for a film/media composer. While I do send a copy for the PR team for each company to proof for factual issues, the critique is always left alone. I was actually worried that my BBCSO review was a bit too harsh but credit to SFA that they took it in stride. 

My journalistic style has changed over the years. I use less provocative verbiage and largely concentrate on the positives of the products I review. I'm not going to descend into the current sensationalist crap we see in media which is more personal editorialism with little on the factual side. Of all the libraries I've review, I have only twice contacted the developer and told them I would have a hard time finding something positive to say and give them the choice whether to run the review or pass on it. And this is only in context of MY personal workflow and experience. That is how the column has been crafted. 

I used to write scathing soundtrack reviews and poor Hans Zimmer was often the recipient of my innane diatribe. I look back on those pieces and want to tell myself "kid, shut the fuck up, you have no idea what you are talking about" because I made speculative assertions rather than focus on how the music sounded to me, or how it worked in the film, in my opinion. 

Anyhow, it's great to have a lot of varying opinions, but especially as we near the holidays can we all be a bit nicer to one another and these developers perhaps?


----------



## Traz

dcoscina said:


> Anyhow, it's great to have a lot of varying opinions, but especially as we near the holidays can we all be a bit nicer to one another and these developers perhaps?


Have you been impish or admirable?


----------



## CT

peladio said:


> Having an opinion is perfectly fine..trying to silence someone else's because he or she don't happen to agree with you is not..How is this not easy to understand?



This, from someone who has described with relish using the ignore function, and who I've frequently seen use the "fanboy" shtick to shut people down, is quite rich!

Anyway, how many times can this thread go in circles? Summary:

- if you're going to review things, people are bound to disagree

- it is possible to disagree without being overly aggressive

- it should also be possible to acknowledge and accept disagreements without writing them all off due to occasional failures by some to live up to the previous standard

- Spitfire isn't the boogeyman out to get you with sleeper agents who influence your thinking and silently assassinate dissenters

- criticism against Spitfire gets the most pushback because the criticism itself is more pronounced than with any other developer; they are simply talked about more, positively and negatively, than most others

- even seemingly overblown marketing language may turn out to be accurate for at least some portion of consumers (BBCSO did actually change the way I work)

- the only way to avoid a thread like this as someone purveying opinions in the spotlight is to qualify every single thing said as personal experience only, as subjective and not necessarily representative. seems absurd to have to point that out, I know, but it's probably the only chance one has of minimizing the degree to which others will feel compelled to counter with their own experiences


----------



## Kevperry777

dcoscina said:


> There is no objective truth.



Is that an objectively true statement? 😉

Just funnin...

anyways- Brian thanks for the review.

Maybe we need another forum titled “Sample Review Review.”


----------



## Zero&One

Kevperry777 said:


> Maybe we need another forum titled “Sample Review Review.”



-- Sample Review Review -- 
a safe place where you can beat the reviewer down to get the score... YOU want.


----------



## dcoscina

You know, that's not a bad idea to have a Forum called User Reviews and it would be understood that it's a place where people can offer their own personal experience with the libraries. 

Like I've always said, it's usually not the message that gets things are scrunchy but how its delivered.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Mike T said:


> the only way to avoid a thread like this as someone purveying opinions in the spotlight is to qualify every single thing said as personal experience only, as subjective and not necessarily representative. seems absurd to have to point that out, I know, but it's probably the only chance one has of minimizing the degree to which others will feel compelled to counter with their own experiences


Yep. No matter how it's spun, people will tend to (internally) read a negative review of a product they own as a criticism of their original choice to buy it and on-going use of it - even if that wasn't the reviewers intention. Slippery slope.

As far as negative reviews go, I tend to take most with a pinch of salt: Unless the library is an unusable technical bonfire, the library itself is almost never the weak link in the chain. That goes for Spitfire or any other dev.

Can a library not match the use case for the reviewer or fail to live up to personal expectations? Sure. However, it doesn't then follow that it's "bad" and it's something that the forum trips itself up over repeatedly.


----------



## Alex JD

I apologize if is OT but how does the bbc compare to SSS/abbey road strings for those of you who have tested them?


----------



## jaketanner

Alex JD said:


> I apologize if is OT but how does the bbc compare to SSS/abbey road strings for those of you who have tested them?


I only have BBCpro, but have been using SF for a while...from what i can tell, they al have the SF sonic imprint, but recorded in different halls...that alone will alter the sound quite a bit.


----------



## Alex JD

jaketanner said:


> I only have BBCpro, but have been using SF for a while...from what i can tell, they al have the SF sonic imprint, but recorded in different halls...that alone will alter the sound quite a bit.



I see. I’m torn between SSS and BBC at the moment mainly for strings. The fact to get all the other sessions in BBC is appealing. All is recorded in same space so would make it easier to sound cohesive. On the other side the complaint about the SF app is there too.


----------



## bfreepro

Alex JD said:


> I see. I’m torn between SSS and BBC at the moment mainly for strings. The fact to get all the other sessions in BBC is appealing. All is recorded in same space so would make it easier to sound cohesive. On the other side the complaint about the SF app is there too.


What about trying the discover version and seeing how it fares? SSS is very wet/ambient and much more lush. Less detail, but more of a soaring Hollywood sound. BBC is warmer, sounds smaller, and much more detailed while still retaining a lush, symphonic sound (as opposed to a more chamber sound). I like them both. Anything recorded in AIR like sss is just a bit too wet and ambient for my tastes these days, but it really is amazing for a cinematic sound. I’ve always thought that SSS sounds more like a Hollywood score than anything else (it’s even more “Zimmer” than Hans Zimmer Strings 😂). In the end depends on your needs and if you want a more cinematic sound or a more traditional sound


----------



## Alex JD

bfreepro said:


> What about trying the discover version and seeing how it fares? SSS is very wet/ambient and much more lush. Less detail, but more of a soaring Hollywood sound. BBC is warmer, sounds smaller, and much more detailed while still retaining a lush, symphonic sound (as opposed to a more chamber sound). I like them both. Anything recorded in AIR like sss is just a bit too wet and ambient for my tastes these days, but it really is amazing for a cinematic sound. I’ve always thought that SSS sounds more like a Hollywood score than anything else (it’s even more “Zimmer” than Hans Zimmer Strings 😂). In the end depends on your needs and if you want a more cinematic sound or a more traditional sound



The wetness of SSS is the other point is that is holding me back a bit. I assume would be harder to mix that sound with non-spitfire libraries, bur maybe I’m wrong who knows.

I tried the bbc free version and liked the shorts, didn’t like violas and longs in general but I figured out it would be because it’s free so is toned down I suppose? 

As the purpose i would use it for movie/commercial music so while I know that depending on projects you want different kind of sounds I want to have a strong base. I’m thinking a lot about abbey road one as well but since doesn’t have separate section for orchestration I’m not sure as first orchestra would be the best. (Sure for commercial use I’m sure it would be perfect though)

Man black friday is killing me!! 😂


----------



## Jdiggity1

dcoscina said:


> You know, that's not a bad idea to have a [sub]Forum called User Reviews and it would be understood that it's a place where people can offer their own personal experience with the libraries.


Ideally, that's meant to be the core concept of the forum as a whole.


----------



## DS_Joost

ed buller said:


> This really is the problem isn't it ?..Many are very happy with the product..you aren't...that's really all there is to say...all the rest is I feel pointless !
> 
> best
> 
> ed



You see, this is the thing. OP wrote a review with some good critique. That's fine, I have some good critiques on this library as well. I still like it though... I know, weird concept huh?

I will never fall for Spitfire's marketing again though. I will seriously wait for some real world impressions after the honeymoon phase in order to get a good serious look at their products. Managed expectations and all that.


----------



## ka00

DS_Joost said:


> Managed expectations and all that.



Yeah, that’s the thing about all that gloriously over-the-top marketing; it raises interest and excitement enough to make a sale, but as a natural consequence, it raises expectations to a point where they frequently can’t be met.

It’s natural for a customer to reflect on and give feedback on the entire customer experience. And that experience doesn’t just start with buying the product. It starts with being marketed the product. The initial seduction is part of the ensuing relationship. And no one should be to blame for taking “hype” into account in their review of a product.

For the record, I bought Core this black weekend and I think the library represents tremendous value. I wish the solo horn legato had a less abruptly modulated dynamic range, but otherwise it’s quite wonderful to be able to buy a cohesive orchestra in a single box.


----------



## nolotrippen

Looks like I'm pulling the trigger on The Orchestra (after waiting a year). Was looking at IK and Spitfire, had my wallet out, but their installers stopped working in Mojave (for me anyway) and their tech people couldn't fix it. So, money saved, money spent on The Orchestra.


----------



## Ashermusic

Alex Fraser said:


> As far as negative reviews go, I tend to take most with a pinch of salt: Unless the library is an unusable technical bonfire, the library itself is almost never the weak link in the chain. That goes for Spitfire or any other dev.
> 
> Can a library not match the use case for the reviewer or fail to live up to personal expectations? Sure. However, it doesn't then follow that it's "bad" and it's something that the forum trips itself up over repeatedly.



Well stated.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Actually, I disagree with the notion that Spitfire’s marketing is somehow too seductive or overhyped. In fact, I think it’s pretty tame judged against the other stuff we have to put up with.

“Midi packs” anyone?


----------



## Rory

Alex Fraser said:


> As far as negative reviews go, I tend to take most with a pinch of salt: Unless the library is an unusable technical bonfire, the library itself is almost never the weak link in the chain. That goes for Spitfire or any other dev.
> 
> Can a library not match the use case for the reviewer or fail to live up to personal expectations? Sure. However, it doesn't then follow that it's "bad" and it's something that the forum trips itself up over repeatedly.



Evidently you're missing the point. A review is just an opinion, and all opinions are subjective and of equal value. Having atypical problems? Blaming the developer and the library is perfectly cool. I look forward to someone writing a "review" that criticises Spitfire and BBC SO on the ground that the author can't get the library to work the way they want on their 16GB RAM computer. Follow what several people are saying here, and that would be a perfectly acceptable criticism.


----------



## Ashermusic

I don’t agree that all opinions are equal. I will always assign more weight to an opinion on an orchestral library by a guy who plays in a good orchestra for years over mine, and mine over someone’s who has only ever rarely heard a real Orchestra in person.


----------



## Rory

Ashermusic said:


> I don’t agree that all opinions are equal. I will always assign more weight to an opinion on an orchestral library by a guy who plays in a good orchestra for years over mine, and mine over someone’s who has only ever rarely heard a real Orchestra in person.



Well that idea is central to a lot of the posts in this thread. I would have thought that anyone with a high school education would know better, but apparently not.


----------



## Beans

Sometimes, a library just doesn't fit you. What's important is to understand why, so you can make better informed decisions in the future.

It's like buying running shoes. People have their preferences. Nike, Adidas, New Balance, Asics, Mizuno, Salomon, Hoka, Brooks, Saucony, Vibram, blah blah blah.

Each one gets shoved on your feet with the same intent, but some just don't fit the shape of you. And, just because someone has shoes five times the price of yours, it doesn't mean they're going to run any faster or a longer distance than you.

Find the right fit, break them in a bit, and work on improving your stride. Accept that the others likely weren't made with any ill intent toward you.

It's fine to buy a lot of shoes along the way to learning what fits you or as you explore new styles. The most important things are to practice practice practice and have fun.


----------



## ka00

Beans said:


> It's like buying running shoes. People have their preferences. Nike, Adidas, New Balance, Asics, Mizuno, Salomon, Hoka, Brooks, Saucony, Vibram, blah blah blah.



Whatever you do, do not visit foot-control.net! It’s nothing but pages and pages of posts by Vibram fanboys!


----------



## MGdepp

ka00 said:


> Whatever you do, do not visit foot-control.net! It’s nothing but pages and pages of posts by Vibram fanboys!


And maybe you should take a look at the statistics of how the accidents of runners have declined since the sport shoe industry has started to build ever more protection for the runners feet and spine ...

SPOILER ALERT: None! No serious study could prove that injuries have ever been declining through the use of those shoes. In the 70ies, sport shoes were pretty much normal shoes without any special shock-absorbing materials.

Of course, there is a billion industry behind sport shoes these days and these companies will do everything in their power to diffuse that kind of information. That is why some people will call it conspiracy theories. And of course: today there are other companies (and partly the old ones tried to jump that train as well) that will try to sell you very expensive bare-foot running shoes. All of that is true, as well! But it still doesn't change the fact that Adidas, Nike, Reebok and all of these companies made a shitload of money for decades (and continue to do so) by selling something through the magic of marketing that has never really helped anybody - that may arguably even have done damage.


----------



## jaketanner

Alex JD said:


> I see. I’m torn between SSS and BBC at the moment mainly for strings. The fact to get all the other sessions in BBC is appealing. All is recorded in same space so would make it easier to sound cohesive. On the other side the complaint about the SF app is there too.


There is an update coming soon for the BBCSO...not sure if this is an update across the entire SF player, or just BBC, but it's coming soon from what support told me regarding a RAM issue in Pro Tools.


----------



## Alex Fraser

ka00 said:


> Outside of any message board where people congregate to dissect the minutiae of brand A vs brand B, there’s a world full of people who don’t care. And for them, the things we argue over, are just not worth arguing over. It’s a good thing to remember sometimes.


Spot on. I’m not sure I’ve ever said the words “Spitfire Audio” aloud to anyone.


----------



## CT

Alex Fraser said:


> Actually, I disagree with the notion that Spitfire’s marketing is somehow too seductive or overhyped. In fact, I think it’s pretty tame judged against the other stuff we have to put up with.
> 
> “Midi packs” anyone?



I'm confused. Are you or are you not selling MIDI packs? I need A Hit.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Mike T said:


> I'm confused. Are you or are you not selling MIDI packs? I need A Hit.


You can have them for free if you promise to make a video to shill them..


----------



## CT

I don't do videos. What if I sneakily silence all criticism of your products on VI-Control?


----------



## Rory

Mike T said:


> I don't do videos. What if I sneakily silence all criticism of your products on VI-Control?



Any chance of you silencing the current, incessant MIDI Pack ads on YouTube?


----------



## Alex Fraser

Mike T said:


> I don't do videos. What if I sneakily silence all criticism of your products on VI-Control?


Sold! And if you manage to get everyone all riled up in the process, all the better. 😉😅


----------



## Mike Fox

@dcoscina

You'll have to forgive me for my incredibly long reply. I read your response to my statement, and gave it a little time before actually commenting, because I think you bring up some interesting points, and there's some items here that could be of real value, and perhaps even something we could take from this discussion. I've also been right in the middle of a move, so I haven't been able to focus on this forum as much as i normally do.

Anyway, here it goes...



dcoscina said:


> There is no objective truth. It's all subjective. To write as if these things are fact for any and all users of this library is what generated the kind of responses.



Throughout Brian's review, you'll easily find repeated statements like,

"I’ll break down *my thoughts* on the sound of each"

"I am just giving *my honest thoughts* here"

"So I want you to keep this all in mind as I write *my honest and in depth thoughts* about this library"

"However, it’s simply not worth it *in my opinion*"

Feel free to come to whatever conclusion you wish regarding the presentation of the review (presented as fact vs opinion), but I'll just take Brian's word for it when he said back on page 1 of the thread, "Remember, the review is just, ya know, my opinions."



dcoscina said:


> There are also ways of articulating a point without it being incendiary.



I certainly won't disagree with that, but I'm nowhere close to being under the conviction that this particular review was in fact incendiary.

Because it's comments like these (pulled from the review) that make me believe that Brian's intentions were actually good...

"The library, when you just sit down and start playing notes, sounds amazing, as many would expect. It sounds like a real orchestra when you play the notes. It blends together very well."

"The string ensembles here are top-tier stuff. They have an amazing amount of depth and space without sacrificing any of the detail. Overall, they are quite warm and truly a joy to play. "

"The performance legato patches are a staple in my personal composing template, I really love them that much. "

"This is simply the most realistic sampled percussion I’ve heard to date."

"I was incredibly impressed across the board here, from the insanely powerful timpani, to the beautiful tuned percussion, to the plethora of snares, cymbals, etc. Honestly, zero complaints here."

"Some of the instruments are absolutely beautiful, most namely the flutes (solo and ensemble) and the bassoons (solo and ensemble). Some of the woodwind instruments also contain performance legato patches, which is something they’ve never done before, and with the instruments that utilize it, it’s very effective and works great."

"The flutes are a standout here, as they utilize the performance legato techniques flawlessly, with an absolutely beautiful and lovely, airy tone, with an amazing sense of both depth and detail. "

"The bassoons come second to me, they sound very, very good"

"overall I love the sound of the bassoons here."

" I really like the trumpets, the legato especially, and the fantastic multitongued articulations."

So, incendiary? I don't believe so. But if you think the review's intent was to stir the pot, I'd ask you to take a look at Brian's previous reviews, because i think you'd quickly find out that's just not his style.

Is there criticism in the review? Absolutely. But I think it contains a lot of healthy criticism. Even Paul from Spitfire chimed in to say, "there still might be some useful ideas in there that can inform how we can make stuff better."



dcoscina said:


> Oh and most developers don't "chime in" because they all got run off from this site. I think it's admirable (or masochistic) that Spitfire are still willing to field these types of issues.



Most developers? Hm...

Tell you what, you make a list of developers who were "run off" from this site, and I'll make a list of developers who are actively engaged on here. We'll then see who's list is longer. You up for the challenge? 

Joking aside, It actually saddens me a little whenever I see comments like this, because it paints an incredibly grim picture of this place, especially its members. And while I do believe these message boards have a dark side, the VI Control community does an amazing job of living up to its reputation of "Musicians Helping Musicians".

Of course, I can't speak for everyone, but from my personal experience I can honestly say i've met some of coolest people on here, and I've made life long friendships. It's why i keep returning.

So please don't make it sound like VI Control is the crucifixion grounds for developers, because most of the people here actually love discussing the libraries they create. We want to see developers succeed. We want to see developers do better. We want them to produce libraries that truly are game changers, and push the technology into uncharted territory.

In a way, their success is our success. We can't do it without them, and they can't do it without us.


dcoscina said:


> Additionally, if the OP writes his views, well, by virtue of free speech, then aren't others allowed to counter without being indicted as "fanboys" or "covert Spitfire employees?" #doublestandard




And maybe this can be the starting point? Maybe when someone critiques a sample library that's adored by others, it won't be met with hostility, backlash, or the ever so popular "Well, it works just fine on my machine, so you must be doing something wrong" type of response, because it isn't helpful.

And maybe when someone defends a library they love, they won't be referred to as a fanboy, or shill. Maybe we can take a few moments to try and understand why they love their favorite libraries so much.

Maybe we can try a little harder to find common ground, and understand where the other person is coming from. It's perfectly OK to disagree on things, but i think how we disagree is what's important.

I just don't think we should be afraid to offer criticism, and we shouldn't be shamed for it either, especially when it comes to our honest thoughts and feelings towards these libraries that we spend so much time and money on.

Unfortunately, it's really easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment, and lose our cool. We're musicians, and we're passionate about what we do. We're a highly emotional people. But i think we can do this in a fashion that doesn't involve personal insults. After-all, a wise man once said, "There are also ways of articulating a point without it being incendiary." 

So, I'll wrap this ridiculously long post up by saying that for the longest time I held the belief that sample libraries were just sample libraries. Nothing more.

But I've very recently come to the realization that they aren't just sample libraries, are they?

For a developer, a sample library is a work of art, which started as a simple thought fueled by the desire to create something meaningful and beautiful, and something that could perhaps benefit other musicians. These developers invested countless hours breathing life into their creation. It's their baby. No wonder they defend it, even if it isn't perfect.

And for us consumers it's also more than just a sample library. It's our hobby. It's our passion. It's the tools that make our careers so much easier. It's something we NEED to be useful and enjoyable, because we also spent countless hours working hard to be able to afford these libraries, and also figuring out how to use them to their maximum potential. They're an investment.

But most importantly (for me anyway) sample libraries are a way to escape the stress and burdens of reality, and they provide us with the opportunity to express our musical inner voice. They're priceless in that sense.

Anyway, I really don't have anything else to add to this insanely long post, so if you've made it this far, thank you (and anyone else) for taking the time to do so.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## dcoscina

Mike Fox said:


> @dcoscina
> 
> You'll have to forgive me for my incredibly long reply. I read your response to my statement, and gave it a little time before actually commenting, because I think you bring up some interesting points, and there's some items here that could be of real value, and perhaps even something we could take from this discussion. I've also been right in the middle of a move, so I haven't been able to focus on this forum as much as i normally do.
> 
> Anyway, here it goes...
> 
> 
> 
> Throughout Brian's review, you'll easily find repeated statements like,
> 
> "I’ll break down *my thoughts* on the sound of each"
> 
> "I am just giving *my honest thoughts* here"
> 
> "So I want you to keep this all in mind as I write *my honest and in depth thoughts* about this library"
> 
> "However, it’s simply not worth it *in my opinion*"
> 
> Feel free to come to whatever conclusion you wish regarding the presentation of the review (presented as fact vs opinion), but I'll just take Brian's word for it when he said back on page 1 of the thread, "Remember, the review is just, ya know, my opinions."
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly won't disagree with that, but I'm nowhere close to being under the conviction that this particular review was in fact incendiary.
> 
> Because it's comments like these (pulled from the review) that make me believe that Brian's intentions were actually good...
> 
> "The library, when you just sit down and start playing notes, sounds amazing, as many would expect. It sounds like a real orchestra when you play the notes. It blends together very well."
> 
> "The string ensembles here are top-tier stuff. They have an amazing amount of depth and space without sacrificing any of the detail. Overall, they are quite warm and truly a joy to play. "
> 
> "The performance legato patches are a staple in my personal composing template, I really love them that much. "
> 
> "This is simply the most realistic sampled percussion I’ve heard to date."
> 
> "I was incredibly impressed across the board here, from the insanely powerful timpani, to the beautiful tuned percussion, to the plethora of snares, cymbals, etc. Honestly, zero complaints here."
> 
> "Some of the instruments are absolutely beautiful, most namely the flutes (solo and ensemble) and the bassoons (solo and ensemble). Some of the woodwind instruments also contain performance legato patches, which is something they’ve never done before, and with the instruments that utilize it, it’s very effective and works great."
> 
> "The flutes are a standout here, as they utilize the performance legato techniques flawlessly, with an absolutely beautiful and lovely, airy tone, with an amazing sense of both depth and detail. "
> 
> "The bassoons come second to me, they sound very, very good"
> 
> "overall I love the sound of the bassoons here."
> 
> " I really like the trumpets, the legato especially, and the fantastic multitongued articulations."
> 
> So, incendiary? I don't believe so. But if you think the review's intent was to stir the pot, I'd ask you to take a look at Brian's previous reviews, because i think you'd quickly find out that's just not his style.
> 
> Is there criticism in the review? Absolutely. But I think it contains a lot of healthy criticism. Even Paul from Spitfire chimed in to say, "there still might be some useful ideas in there that can inform how we can make stuff better."
> 
> 
> 
> Most developers? Hm...
> 
> Tell you what, you make a list of developers who were "run off" from this site, and I'll make a list of developers who are actively engaged on here. We'll then see who's list is longer. You up for the challenge?
> 
> Joking aside, It actually saddens me a little whenever I see comments like this, because it paints an incredibly grim picture of this place, especially its members. And while I do believe these message boards have a dark side, the VI Control community does an amazing job of living up to its reputation of "Musicians Helping Musicians".
> 
> Of course, I can't speak for everyone, but from my personal experience I can honestly say i've met some of coolest people on here, and I've made life long friendships. It's why i keep returning.
> 
> So please don't make it sound like VI Control is the crucifixion grounds for developers, because most of the people here actually love discussing the libraries they create. We want to see developers succeed. We want to see developers do better. We want them to produce libraries that truly are game changers, and push the technology into uncharted territory.
> 
> In a way, their success is our success. We can't do it without them, and they can't do it without us.
> 
> 
> 
> And maybe this can be the starting point? Maybe when someone critiques a sample library that's adored by others, it won't be met with hostility, backlash, or the ever so popular "Well, it works just fine on my machine, so you must be doing something wrong" type of response, because it isn't helpful.
> 
> And maybe when someone defends a library they love, they won't be referred to as a fanboy, or shill. Maybe we can take a few moments to try and understand why they love their favorite libraries so much.
> 
> Maybe we can try a little harder to find common ground, and understand where the other person is coming from. It's perfectly OK to disagree on things, but i think how we disagree is what's important.
> 
> I just don't think we should be afraid to offer criticism, and we shouldn't be shamed for it either, especially when it comes to our honest thoughts and feelings towards these libraries that we spend so much time and money on.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's really easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment, and lose our cool. We're musicians, and we're passionate about what we do. We're a highly emotional people. But i think we can do this in a fashion that doesn't involve personal insults. After-all, a wise man once said, "There are also ways of articulating a point without it being incendiary."
> 
> So, I'll wrap this ridiculously long post up by saying that for the longest time I held the belief that sample libraries were just sample libraries. Nothing more.
> 
> But I've very recently come to the realization that they aren't just sample libraries, are they?
> 
> For a developer, a sample library is a work of art, which started as a simple thought fueled by the desire to create something meaningful and beautiful, and something that could perhaps benefit other musicians. These developers invested countless hours breathing life into their creation. It's their baby. No wonder they defend it, even if it isn't perfect.
> 
> And for us consumers it's also more than just a sample library. It's our hobby. It's our passion. It's the tools that make our careers so much easier. It's something we NEED to be useful and enjoyable, because we also spent countless hours working hard to be able to afford these libraries, and also figuring out how to use them to their maximum potential. They're an investment.
> 
> But most importantly (for me anyway) sample libraries are a way to escape the stress and burdens of reality, and they provide us with the opportunity to express our musical inner voice. They're priceless in that sense.
> 
> Anyway, I really don't have anything else to add to this insanely long post, so if you've made it this far, thank you (and anyone else) for taking the time to do so.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike


Hey Mike I appreciate the very thoughtful response. You bring up some good points.

Ive been on this forum since 2005 and I have seen the overall tenor change mind you. While there’s nothing wrong with raising questions to developers, the manner in which some do so is aggressive and hostile. Now this wasn’t the OP critique but more how the thread devolved including conspiracy theories and such. This kind element wasn’t present back a decade or so ago, at least from what I can recall (John G or Jose might be able to confirm that since they have also been around for a while).

anyhow, maybe because of Covid or the fact that we are all cooped up and such is having an effect on patience and boiling points. Who knows..

On a different note hope the move went well!


----------



## gpax

Speaking as one who was a published reviewer for several years, the devil is in the details of any so-called numerical rating. It’s one thing to read/watch an honest evaluation of a product based on that user’s experience. But when opinion morphs into a kind of a buyer’s guide, rubber-stamped ratings changes the dynamics - it becomes fair game to question the methodology being used. 

The pitfall of claiming objectivity is just that, because any review can only speak to that party’s experience. It’s all subjective, really. What some are objecting to here is not so much content but context, and specifically, how the message or messenger are perceived as attempting to speak in a broader voice “on behalf of,” while others experience with BBCSO differs from his. 

It brings to mind the last time I watched a Daniel James video - about eight years ago. He was covering a product I had also bought, and I was curious as to how others were using it. What he “did with it” bore no resemblance to the library as I knew it. None. We might as well have been talking about two different libraries, in fact. 

FWIW, proofreading is also a thing that can bolster a reviewer’s credibility.


----------



## Mike Fox

dcoscina said:


> On a different note hope the move went well!



Thank you!


----------



## dcoscina

gpax said:


> Speaking as one who was a published reviewer for several years, the devil is in the details of any so-called numerical rating. It’s one thing to read/watch an honest evaluation of a product based on that user’s experience. But when opinion morphs into a kind of a buyer’s guide, rubber-stamped ratings changes the dynamics - it becomes fair game to question the methodology being used.
> 
> The pitfall of claiming objectivity is just that, because any review can only speak to that party’s experience. It’s all subjective, really. What some are objecting to here is not so much content but context, and specifically, how the message or messenger are perceived as attempting to speak in a broader voice “on behalf of,” while others experience with BBCSO differs from his.
> 
> It brings to mind the last time I watched a Daniel James video - about eight years ago. He was covering a product I had also bought, and I was curious as to how others were using it. What he “did with it” bore no resemblance to the library as I knew it. None. We might as well have been talking about two different libraries, in fact.
> 
> FWIW, proofreading is also a thing that can bolster a reviewer’s credibility.


Agreed. product reviews with numeric ratings are superficial and non productive.


----------



## Kevperry777

On a related note, there is a new demo posted that uses the BBCSO update. 

It’s sounds amazing. Alas- Brass is mostly absent.


----------



## Kevinside

As in my other thread...Does BBCSO has a rebow feature for the strings, like css and others?


----------



## dcoscina

Kevperry777 said:


> On a related note, there is a new demo posted that uses the BBCSO update.
> 
> It’s sounds amazing. Alas- Brass is mostly absent.



Well it's Andy Blaney so yeah, it's awesome! Love the music and all of the exposed instrument lines. He's really at the top for demos. His music is so layered and sublime. Dude is straight up awesome.

Blaney fan here. Admittedly.


----------



## bfreepro

dcoscina said:


> Agreed. product reviews with numeric ratings are superficial and non productive.


🙄


----------



## José Herring

Kevinside said:


> As in my other thread...Does BBCSO has a rebow feature for the strings, like css and others?


No it doesn't. But, I only have Core. Maybe in Pro or perhaps the update.


----------



## dcoscina

bfreepro said:


> 🙄


I just meant that it undermines all of the exposition of the review piece when someone can have a quick glance and make an assumption based on a numeric grade.


----------



## Alex Fraser

But scores do have a use: Generating online discussion, arguments and headline grabbing across the ‘net. 😉


----------



## dcoscina

Alex Fraser said:


> But scores do have a use: Generating online discussion, arguments and headline grabbing across the ‘net. 😉


Yeah they are provocative for sure. I just think that they often undermine the time and care a reviewer went to the trouble of writing the article in the first place.


----------



## ed buller

gpax said:


> Speaking as one who was a published reviewer for several years, the devil is in the details of any so-called numerical rating. It’s one thing to read/watch an honest evaluation of a product based on that user’s experience. But when opinion morphs into a kind of a buyer’s guide, rubber-stamped ratings changes the dynamics - it becomes fair game to question the methodology being used.
> 
> The pitfall of claiming objectivity is just that, because any review can only speak to that party’s experience. It’s all subjective, really. What some are objecting to here is not so much content but context, and specifically, how the message or messenger are perceived as attempting to speak in a broader voice “on behalf of,” while others experience with BBCSO differs from his.
> 
> It brings to mind the last time I watched a Daniel James video - about eight years ago. He was covering a product I had also bought, and I was curious as to how others were using it. What he “did with it” bore no resemblance to the library as I knew it. None. We might as well have been talking about two different libraries, in fact.
> 
> FWIW, proofreading is also a thing that can bolster a reviewer’s credibility.


this !

best

ed


----------



## ed buller

Kevperry777 said:


> On a related note, there is a new demo posted that uses the BBCSO update.
> 
> It’s sounds amazing. Alas- Brass is mostly absent.



yes I find it amazing the criticism leveled at this library when you can have these sounds for £539

best

ed


----------



## Sovereign

ed buller said:


> yes I find it amazing the criticism leveled at this library when you can have these sounds for £539


No library is above criticism, there's always room for improvement. Fanboy behavior stifles a developer's incentive to improve.


----------



## Sean

ed buller said:


> yes I find it amazing the criticism leveled at this library when you can have these sounds for £539
> 
> best
> 
> ed


I don't understand why the price of a library determines if it can be criticized. For ~$600 why can't I expect consistent programming? (I don't have BBCSO but that is one of the main complaints about it)


----------



## Traz

From a students perspective (since it is marketed for students and education) thats a pretty steep amount of cash to drop on a library thats supposed to be revolutionary, only to be slightly let down by some 
parts of it like the inconsistencies and any technical issues that may be experienced by some as well(as I had when I was on pc but not since switching back to Mac).

I still love it and is what I use for 98% of everything I do, but I was definitely a bit disappointed initially when I found a handful of things that stuck out to me that I didn't like about it.

My teacher and I both use BBCSO, and we got it at about the same time. I had a bunch of complaints at first and he practically had none, other than an issue with the shorts in the strings. 
That made me think that the problem might not be the library so much as my inexperience so I didn't give up on it right away and kept using it.

The more I've used it the more I've gotten used to it and found work arounds and realized some of those things that bothered me when playing through the patches for the first time don't stick out in a full composition, except for the phasing with the 
sul tasto strings, is that just what sul tasto strings do though? I'm not really sure.

Anyways, I do think BBCSO is great and still worth it in the end but it is a hefty price tag for a student which isn't going to be the all you need or perfect library after all(at least as of this moment, before the big upcoming update which maybe could change that?)
not to mention the potential issues on the technical side which could be a major bummer for us students that do experience them, and I don't mean just the ones with less powerful rigs.


----------



## Macrawn

If this library is a 6/10 there is nothing out there higher than a 7/10 max.


----------



## jaketanner

Anyone know anything about the update? Heard there is about 35 gigs of new material


----------



## Theladur

jaketanner said:


> Anyone know anything about the update? Heard there is about 35 gigs of new material



The 35 gigs is only for Pro (due to mic positions).

Comparing the Instrument list that was accessible (by accident?) last week with the current one, the new content is:

- Extended Legato for Oboe, Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Bassoon, Cor Anglais, Horn, Trumpet and Tenor Trombone
- Muted Articulations (Long, Staccatissimo, Marcato) for Solo and Ensemble Horns, Trumpets, Tenor & Bass Trombones
and new instrument: Cimbasso (Long, Staccatissimo, Marcato, Long Cuivre, Long Sfz)


----------



## Peros

Didn't Paul say something about improved legato for all sections as well???


----------



## Theladur

I am not sure.

He said we'll


paulthomson said:


> LOVE the new updated legatos..


, but that could mean both, only the extended legatos for instruments which didn't had them before, or also improved legato for the other instruments.


----------



## Peros

yup..lol i guess i read what i wished for


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

I hope that all legatos were updated. Especially the notorious solo horn. In the new demo the legatos definitely sound different and great.

Finally the missing performance (extended) legatos for the woodwinds... Great! Now we have a complete package.


----------



## re-peat

10/10 for Blaney's new piece though.

_


----------



## dcoscina

re-peat said:


> 10/10 for Blaney's new piece though.
> 
> _


11/10


----------



## Kevinside

When you listem to Blaney´s demos... every library sounds great... He is the one, who understands Spitfire in the best way...Great new demo... So let the update come...


----------



## gpax

dcoscina said:


> Yeah they are provocative for sure. I just think that they often undermine the time and care a reviewer went to the trouble of writing the article in the first place.


It’s the irony of debating a product, even as some compelling music is being made with it. I have heard some compelling things from you as well, if I might say so.

But it is also late November/December at VI-Control, which if memory serves, has historically become fire/flame season around here. It’s the time when past experiences, good and bad, compete and collide in the context of talking about what others might consider investing in at preset. And where there is an ember still aglow...

Black Friday may be a culprit, as it makes what is already out there seem new again for those with wish lists to discuss. Hence, the timing of the review is what stuck out for me, like someone arriving late to a party. At this point, its announcement here risks inflaming more than it informs, though the target audience is not forum members, I would guess; we already have a 10,000 + thread on this, not to mention posted mockups showing its effectiveness to both greater and lesser degrees.


----------



## jaketanner

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Finally the missing performance (extended) legatos for the woodwinds... Great! Now we have a complete package.


Hopefully they added a legato only patch for the strings.


----------



## dcoscina

gpax said:


> It’s the irony of debating a product, even as some compelling music is being made with it. I have heard some compelling things from you as well, if I might say so.
> 
> But it is also late November/December at VI-Control, which if memory serves, has historically become fire/flame season around here. It’s the time when past experiences, good and bad, compete and collide in the context of talking about what others might consider investing in at preset. And where there is an ember still aglow...
> 
> Black Friday may be a culprit, as it makes what is already out there seem new again for those with wish lists to discuss. Hence, the timing of the review is what stuck out for me, like someone arriving late to a party. At this point, its announcement here risks inflaming more than it informs, though the target audience is not forum members, I would guess; we already have a 10,000 + thread on this, not to mention posted mockups showing its effectiveness to both greater and lesser degrees.


I don't really have a dog in this race anyhow. I mostly use StaffPad these days. But I do enjoy BBC for what I write and will leave it at that. 

My wish is that SFA will make a deal with DWH to port over their complete Abbey Road modular system down the line.... that would be a dream come true! 

sorry, back to our regularly scheduled program now in progress.


----------



## Daniel James

gpax said:


> It brings to mind the last time I watched a Daniel James video - about eight years ago. He was covering a product I had also bought, and I was curious as to how others were using it. What he “did with it” bore no resemblance to the library as I knew it. None. We might as well have been talking about two different libraries, in fact.



Which library was that? and lol 8 years ago...things have changed a bit since then...I am thinking not in any direction you would like though 😂

-DJ


----------



## José Herring

jaketanner said:


> Hopefully they added a legato only patch for the strings.


Just play softer.


----------



## jaketanner

José Herring said:


> Just play softer.


Should work that way. Most legato patches are not velocity sensitive, so I have my controller set appropriately. They did it for the brass just not sure why they opted to give us some me legato for strings.


----------



## MaxOctane

I'll just chime in with my not-super-informative comment that I not only appreciated @bfreepro's review of BBCSO (which I own, fwiw), but I went back and read a bunch more of his reviews as well. Long-form, detailed text-only reviews are all too rare (let's please not talk about Sound On Sound's "reviews"). 

Now, I disagreed with several of @bfreepro's numerical scores, but so what? No different than me disagreeing with Roger Ebert giving a movie 3 stars instead of 2.

In fact, I've gone back and re-read this BBCSO review and for the life of me I can't find anything about it that is in the slightest bit incendiary, mean-spirited, or insensitive.

_So, @bfreepro keep 'em coming!_


----------



## gpax

Daniel James said:


> Which library was that? and lol 8 years ago...things have changed a bit since then...I am thinking not in any direction you would like though 😂
> 
> -DJ


I'm getting older, but this is ridiculous. Was it strings? I recall the impressions I mentioned, and that I started talking to the YouTube video telling it "you didn't cover this feature, you completely skipped over this... it's much more subtle and nuanced than that...!" 

Anyway, thanks for being a good sport eight years on. I have disagreed with others, many times since. Best.

- Greg


----------



## bill5

José Herring said:


> those with limited resources might read your review pass it up and be missing out on a total and complete bargain.


I don't have this and no idea how good it is or isn't but $600 for a library (on sale no less) is hardly a "bargain," I don't care if it makes angels weep. It's easily one of the most expensive on the market.

I do appreciate the discussion and viewpoints though, as I am window shopping orchestral libraries.


----------



## bfreepro

MaxOctane said:


> I'll just chime in with my not-super-informative comment that I not only appreciated @bfreepro's review of BBCSO (which I own, fwiw), but I went back and read a bunch more of his reviews as well. Long-form, detailed text-only reviews are all too rare (let's please not talk about Sound On Sound's "reviews").
> 
> Now, I disagreed with several of @bfreepro's numerical scores, but so what? No different than me disagreeing with Roger Ebert giving a movie 3 stars instead of 2.
> 
> In fact, I've gone back and re-read this BBCSO review and for the life of me I can't find anything about it that is in the slightest bit incendiary, mean-spirited, or insensitive.
> 
> _So, @bfreepro keep 'em coming!_


Thank you! I love in depth, written reviews, of anything. I don’t like sitting and watching YouTube reviews and having to keep track the presenters opinions over the course of a several minute video. I also know, without any doubt, that there are quite a few reviewers online who get NFRs to offer their opinion of a product. This opinion is often not as transparent and honest as it would be if they had spent their hard earned money on it. I am fully guilty of doing this as well with at least one of my previous reviews on my blog in which, looking back, I realize I was not being as critical as I should have because I was given the product in exchange for a review.

There is also a specific review page out there which reads like nothing more than an extended advertisement for the product and offers VERY little in terms of true opinion and critique, yet I’ve never once seen anyone complain about that even though they post here all the time. To me, things like that should be met with more backlash than a critical review where the reviewer spent their own money on the library. My reviews will always feel harsh to some, especially when I feel like I wasted said money and simply want others to be aware of the shortcomings before they spend their own hard earned cash on it! I love to compare things, my only intention being to share what I think the absolute best purchase would be, especially for those in a limited budget. That’s also why I try to be in depth and specific about the shortcomings, because they obviously may not be shortcomings for everyone.

Parting words: If someone buys a pair of shoes from Amazon and they did not fit, would they get a 5 star review? Nope. They’d probably give them like 3 stars and then explain in writing “great quality shoe but unfortunately they didn’t fit me”


----------



## bfreepro

bill5 said:


> I don't have this and no idea how good it is or isn't but $600 for a library (on sale no less) is hardly a "bargain," I don't care if it makes angels weep. It's easily one of the most expensive on the market.
> 
> I do appreciate the discussion and viewpoints though, as I am window shopping orchestral libraries.


Hmm even though it’s not my favorite, I think it’s a fantastic value... you gotta factor in the amount of articulations and individual sections you get.
BBC has strings, brass, woodwinds, and percussion (aux and tuned), solo instruments AND ensembles, with a very large amount of articulations, for $999 full price.
Spitfire’s Symphony Orchestra is $1800 and doesn’t include solo strings.
The Berlin products right now, on a half off sale, come out to about 1,394 euros, which is $1,694... half off! So, full price almost $3,388, and that doesn’t even include a harp, timpani, first chairs or anything.
Just the core sections of Cinesamples orchestra is $1,950 for brass, strings, woods, and percs. That doesn’t even include harp or solo strings either.
So I think we have to give credit where it’s due... BBCSO is a ridiculously good value when you compare the ratio of content-to-price with the competitors on the market.


----------



## John R Wilson

Peros said:


> Didn't Paul say something about improved legato for all sections as well???



It said updated legatos for flute and strings on the part that was wrote about the update under the list of articulations.


----------



## Michael Antrum

bill5 said:


> I don't have this and no idea how good it is or isn't but $600 for a library (on sale no less) is hardly a "bargain," I don't care if it makes angels weep. It's easily one of the most expensive on the market.
> 
> I do appreciate the discussion and viewpoints though, as I am window shopping orchestral libraries.



I don't have BBC SO, and have no intention of getting it. But at $600 for such a comprehensive full orchestra I think only the East West HWS and Symphonic orchestras get anywhere near it for value for money.

Everything else at that price range is more of a sketching library, Steinberg Iconica probably comes closest after that.

BBCSO is certainly nowhere near one of the most expensive on the market.


----------



## MGdepp

Michael Antrum said:


> I don't have BBC SO, and have no intention of getting it. But at $600 for such a comprehensive full orchestra I think only the East West HWS and Symphonic orchestras get anywhere near it for value for money.
> 
> Everything else at that price range is more of a sketching library, Steinberg Iconica probably comes closest after that.
> 
> BBCSO is certainly nowhere near one of the most expensive on the market.


BBCSO is 1000 bucks while Iconica is 800. During this sale, BBCSO was 600 and Iconica 400. Only including the Ensembles it is the same price, but you don't really need these. They are only stitched together with the same samples AFAIK.


----------



## José Herring

For $1000 you get a whole orchestra with a gazillion (give or take) mic positions. 

For $450 you get a full orchestra minus a few auxiliary instruments with one of the best mix positions I know of.

Compare that to SSO, Berlin, Cinematic Studio Orchestra, CineOrchestra, and VSL synchron or VSL regular.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Yes, which was why I mentioned Iconica. But with the exception of Iconica and the East West products, which other company offers a quality full orchestra with Perc, Winds, Brass & Strings for $600 ?

Because I can't think of any. So 'It's easily one of the most expensive on the market.' is not really correct, is it ?

Do you know what - when Iconica came out ( I have Iconica and really rate it BTW ) if you look at the thread on it, many people were complaining that at the intro price it was too expensive. Compared to what exactly I wondered at the time.

My only issue with Iconica is that you have to be very careful with the strings, they easily become synths if you are not careful....

I have a feeling that when the Hollywood Opus Comes out, then the bargain that is HWO is going to be rather more expensive than it is now - unless you subscribe of course.


----------



## MGdepp

The amount of detail in articulations is quite similar between Iconica and BBCSO. It is just the amount of mic positions that makes BBC look bigger. I haven’t checked it, but I suppose the number of dynamic layers is also better with Iconica. Last but not least, I would prefer using the well established and tested Halion platform any day over the SA player. The software is key to all, as its quality may decide wether I will use something or put it in the HD grave of samples that are just to cumbersome to use - and then it will get even less likely to be used due to SA audio players inability to properly stream from HD (see DJs walkthrough).


----------



## bill5

bfreepro said:


> Hmm even though it’s not my favorite, I think it’s a fantastic value... you gotta factor in the amount of articulations and individual sections you get.
> BBC has strings, brass, woodwinds, and percussion (aux and tuned), solo instruments AND ensembles, with a very large amount of articulations, for $999 full price.
> 
> Spitfire’s Symphony Orchestra is $1800 and doesn’t include solo strings.


That's ridiculous IMO, as is any more expensive library that doesn't include a complete set of solos (and ensembles). And because there are other pricier libraries doesn't make BBCSO Pro a fantastic value IMO. 



> The Berlin products right now, on a half off sale, come out to about 1,394 euros, which is $1,694... half off! So, full price almost $3,388, and that doesn’t even include a harp, timpani, first chairs or anything.


? The Berlin Orchestra bundle is $549 and includes harp, timpani, and first chairs. Not sure of the diffs between that and the individual packages though.

There are numerous orchestral libraries that are well below even BBCSO's $600 sale tag, never mind the regular $1000 price, that seem generally well-regarded (subjective obviously) and have the solos and ensembles...maybe they aren't as comprehensive with the articulations and mic positions and that's the diff, but again, I would think if you're going to charge big bucks ($600-1000 or more range IMO certainly qualifies), the solos and ensembles would be there too.

View attachment 40302
And maybe it's just what one plans to do with it as well. I'm not writing symphonies so I don't need a ton of articulations or mic positions. I get that there are those who do though, so maybe it's a question of what matters most and if it's worth the extra cost, what it does or doesn't offer etc.


----------



## Michael Antrum

bill5 said:


> That's ridiculous IMO, as is any more expensive library that doesn't include a complete set of solos (and ensembles). And because there are other pricier libraries doesn't make BBCSO Pro a fantastic value IMO.
> 
> ? The Berlin Orchestra bundle is $549 and includes harp, timpani, and first chairs. Not sure of the diffs between that and the individual packages though.
> 
> There are numerous orchestral libraries that are well below even BBCSO's $600 sale tag, never mind the regular $1000 price, that seem generally well-regarded (subjective obviously) and have the solos and ensembles...maybe they aren't as comprehensive with the articulations and mic positions and that's the diff, but again, I would think if you're going to charge big bucks ($600-1000 or more range IMO certainly qualifies), the solos and ensembles would be there too.
> 
> View attachment 40302
> And maybe it's just what one plans to do with it as well. I'm not writing symphonies so I don't need a ton of articulations or mic positions. I get that there are those who do though, so maybe it's a question of what matters most and if it's worth the extra cost, what it does or doesn't offer etc.


----------



## bill5

Michael Antrum said:


> Yes, which was why I mentioned Iconica. But with the exception of Iconica and the East West products, which other company offers a quality full orchestra with Perc, Winds, Brass & Strings for $600 ?
> 
> Because I can't think of any.


Wow really? These all cost less:

Sonic Scores Amadeus 
IK Miroslav Philharmonik 2 (even CE)
EW Symphony orch 
EW Hollywood orch
VSL Smart orch 
VSL VI Series, Essential orch
Audio Imperia Nucleus
BBSCO Core 
Berlin Orch
Metropolis Ark


----------



## Kevinside

Iconica has no Portamento... I like the sound of the Berlin Funkhaus, but the articulations of Iconica are limited...

A great advantage of BBCSO is the room and all the mic positions... It is limited (dynamic layers and more) But for simple orchestration, it delivers the sound... And the tone is wonderful...
If you want more complex libraries, go for VSL Symphonic Cube ore SSO or and or... There are so many out there... BBCSO is a inconsistent library, but in the strengths...it works easy and ootb...
And its more easy to use, than EWHO for example...
So whats the best whole orchester package out there.... Is it VSL or EWHO or Berlin Series or Cinesamples or SSO or.... There is no perfect package out there...And in all this competition and libraries of other companies...BBCSO Pro does a good job... (hey there is a leader mic for example)...
It changed the perspective of recording a whole orchester with all the interesting mic positions...
Its not perfect at all... the brass are awful, but i like the strings and woodwinds and percussion...


----------



## Michael Antrum

bill5 said:


> Wow really? These all cost less:
> 
> Sonic Scores Amadeus
> IK Miroslav Philharmonik 2 (even CE)
> EW Symphony orch
> EW Hollywood orch
> VSL Smart orch
> VSL VI Series, Essential orch
> Audio Imperia Nucleus
> BBSCO Core
> Berlin Orch
> Metropolis Ark



Well, the EW libraries are made by East West, so when I said with the exception of East West & Iconica.....

VSL Smart Orchestra is the Equivalent of BBCSO ? Just Wow.

Metropolis Ark - Please tell me what you think of the Clarinets and Oboes in that library.

Berlin Orchestra - you must mean the Inspire Bundle - Can you write me a small section of the strings in 4 part harmony ? (Berlin Orchestra when on 50% sale was over 1500 Euros plus VAT)

VSL Essential Orchestra - well it's a basic rig I grant you - but it sounds so sterile and hard - plus it's whole tone sampled and you really need to work hard with reverb to get it to sound good in the room. No legatos, and you are so limited without the 1plus articulations. It's more the equivalent of Core. The Synchron edition is a much better product.

Heck, why am I even bothering - I don't even have BBCSO. You are comparing apples and boomerangs....


----------



## MGdepp

LOL


----------



## CT

Kevinside said:


> the brass are awful,



The other day, I shared something with you using the brass and you said it sounded good. Now it's awful again?


----------



## Michael Antrum

Kevinside said:


> Iconica has no Portamento... I like the sound of the Berlin Funkhaus, but the articulations of Iconica are limited...



I have Iconica and I rather like it. But I think that much like people saying the weak point of BBCSO is the brass not going very loud, I think the strings are the weak point in Iconica. I also find it's easy to make them sound rather synths - so you have to be careful with them. But otherwise I'm rather a fan.

When it's on sale it's pretty good value. In fact, the reason I never bothered with BBCSO was that I already had Iconica, and I'm not too keen on the Spitfire player.


----------



## bfreepro

bill5 said:


> That's ridiculous IMO, as is any more expensive library that doesn't include a complete set of solos (and ensembles). And because there are other pricier libraries doesn't make BBCSO Pro a fantastic value IMO.
> 
> ? The Berlin Orchestra bundle is $549 and includes harp, timpani, and first chairs. Not sure of the diffs between that and the individual packages though.
> 
> There are numerous orchestral libraries that are well below even BBCSO's $600 sale tag, never mind the regular $1000 price, that seem generally well-regarded (subjective obviously) and have the solos and ensembles...maybe they aren't as comprehensive with the articulations and mic positions and that's the diff, but again, I would think if you're going to charge big bucks ($600-1000 or more range IMO certainly qualifies), the solos and ensembles would be there too.
> 
> View attachment 40302
> And maybe it's just what one plans to do with it as well. I'm not writing symphonies so I don't need a ton of articulations or mic positions. I get that there are those who do though, so maybe it's a question of what matters most and if it's worth the extra cost, what it does or doesn't offer etc.


Berlin Inspire is what you are referring to, and is a_ significantly _stripped-down version of the full Berlin Orch (Berlin Strings, Berlin Woodwinds, Berlin Brass, Berlin Percussion, Berlin Harp, etc) and only includes one mic position (great library, but nowhere near a fair comparison).

This is why I very specifically pointed out the articulations here, as this is where the differences between these packages really start to be too big to ignore.

BBCSO Core Strings Articulations:

Legato
Long
Long CS
Long Flautando
Short Spiccato
Short Staccato
Short Pizzicato
Short Col Legno
Tremolo
Trill (Major 2nd)
Trill (Minor 2nd)
Long Sul Tasto
Long Harmonics
Short Harmonics
Short Pizzicato Bartok
Long Marcato Attack
Tremolo Sul Pont
Tremolo CS
Long Sul Pont
Short Spiccato CS
Berlin Inspire Strings Articulations:




Sustains Imm
Sustains Soft
Spiccato
Pizzicato
Tremolo
Audio Imperia Nucleus Strings Articulations:



Legato
Sustains
Trem
Spiccato
Pizz

Also why, when I said it was a fantastic value, I compared it directly with libraries that offer the same amount of control over the sound: sections, solo instruments, multiple mic positions, etc. Ark 1 is a totally different beast, as it specifically channels a certain tone/sound and style, instead of offering you just a full orchestra to really play with. BBCSO is certainly a full-fledged orchestral library, you could compare it to EW Hollywood, SSO, but to compare with VSL you'd have to include the SE Vol 1 AND Vol 1 Plus, and it still wouldn't offer the same amount of stuff. Granted, whether you need it or not is up to you, but that fact is kind of irrelevant when only comparing the value of one to the other.


----------



## bill5

Michael Antrum said:


> Well, the EW libraries are made by East West, so when I said with the exception of East West & Iconica.....


whoops, my bad



> Heck, why am I even bothering - I don't even have BBCSO. You are comparing apples and boomerangs....


No, I'm answering your "which other company offers a quality full orchestra with Perc, Winds, Brass & Strings for $600 ? Because I can't think of any" comment by comparing apples to apples, all orchestral packages that answer the question. I can't say how good one is vs the other offhand and again it is of course subjective, but my point is there are numerous others that cost less than BBCSO Pro. That said given the other examples, I guess its price is in the middle of the road generally, but once again you have to take various things into consideration of what it offers in terms of instruments, solos, ensembles, articulations, mic positions, overall sound of course, UI, and so on


----------



## Kevinside

@Mike T

Yes, your example was really nice, but after testing... there are some good patches and others sound awful sry.. but your example was very nice.... I think, the brass in BBCSO are the weakest section...
Woodwinds are very nice... Flute especially....

At last it was no mistake for me to buy BBCSO Pro at all.... Only there some patches, which are strange and not the quality of the rest of the library... I am really excited about the update....


----------



## muadgil

In term of value I think BBCSO Core is just incredible... During BF and December, and if you have the free Discover Lib, it's 220€!
Even only for the strings it would be great!! They sound quite well to my ears, and have a good amount of articulations. And as a bonus, you'll have very good WW, a fine percussion set. And correct brass in the low-mid dynamic register. High is good too, but happens to brutally. 
And very well done ready to use templates for almost all DAWs. And Dorico integration. 
Quite a fine offer I think...


----------



## Alex Fraser

muadgil said:


> In term of value I think BBCSO Core is just incredible... During BF and December, and if you have the free Discover Lib, it's 220€!
> Even only for the strings it would be great!! They sound quite well to my ears, and have a good amount of articulations. And as a bonus, you'll have very good WW, a fine percussion set. And correct brass in the low-mid dynamic register. High is good too, but happens to brutally.
> And very well done ready to use templates. And Cubase expression maps. And logic Articulation sets.
> Well. Quite a good deal...


Yes, absolutely.
I've been doing this VI thing for a while and I don't remember a product of this pedigree costing so little. 

I don't have the library, but listening to AB's new tune (featuring the updates), it's clear that for those who are lucky enough to have the library, the only thing getting in the way of making a cool instrumental piece...is the willingness to do so.

Sure, we can all split hairs over the details but clearly there's enough "in the box" for everyone to create _something._ And I think that's great. I should probably buy it.


----------



## Ashermusic

I know people get weary of hearing this because the purpose of this forum is to discuss what people perceive as the pros and cons, and they all have both, but BBCO Core for $260 is an incredible bargain.

I dont need it at all, I have more stuff than I can use already, and yet I am fighting with myself not to reach for my credit card.

A skilled composer with good sample library manipulation skills will make beautiful music with it.


----------



## mybadmemory

Ashermusic said:


> I know people get weary of hearing this because the purpose of this forum is to discuss what people perceive as the pros and cons, and they all have both, but BBCO Core for $260 is an incredible bargain.
> 
> I dont need it at all, I have more stuff than I can use already, and yet I am fighting with myself not to reach for my credit card.
> 
> A skilled composer with good sample library manipulation skills will make beautiful music with it.



I have a bit of a starter/all in one library obsession, and I’m constantly trying to find the one that is complete enough for me to use only that.

Out of the ones I have BBCSO is, in spite of its quirks, by far the most competitive in terms of amount of content and sound for the money.


----------



## Unknown

bfreepro said:


> Verdict: 6/10
> FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT.



I'm a beginner and i'm offended


----------



## bfreepro

Unknown said:


> I'm a beginner and i'm offended


----------



## Unknown

bfreepro said:


>



I know i'm a beginner but I strive for perfection so if someone says something sounds bad, I wanna buy the better thing!


----------



## bfreepro

Unknown said:


> I know i'm a beginner but I strive for perfection so if someone says something sounds bad, I wanna buy the better thing!


The core and discover versions are honestly great options to start with, I'm just at the point where I have enough (too many) really quality libraries that BBCSO just didn't impress me. Totally up to you if you like the sound and everything, the BBCSO library is geared towards a more subdued, classical/broadcast sound, while I personally prefer something more cinematic and lush in general. The libraries I think sound better cost a whole lot more in the long run  So while I was disappointed in the pro version, I do think the core and discover versions are very good options IF you have a powerful system


----------



## Unknown

bfreepro said:


> The core and discover versions are honestly great options to start with, I'm just at the point where I have enough (too many) really quality libraries that BBCSO just didn't impress me. Totally up to you if you like the sound and everything, the BBCSO library is geared towards a more subdued, classical/broadcast sound, while I personally prefer something more cinematic and lush in general. The libraries I think sound better cost a whole lot more in the long run  So while I was disappointed in the pro version, I do think the core and discover versions are very good options IF you have a powerful system


I bought the core version a couple of months ago and while I don't really understand what sounds good yet, I have a rough idea that the strings sound good and what you mentioned about the brass and woodwind, I had noticed myself. For example whenever I bounced a composition, sometimes the flutes would skip a note at the start. I put that down to personal error but now it seems like it might be a bug or an incomplete patch. I also noticed that the woodwinds don't seem very loud or powerful, they easily get drowned out by strings. I've tried to max out the velocity but nothing seems to be working. Is that to do with the library itself or just my lack of experience?

ALSOOOOOO, I wish they would throw in a piano library


----------



## bfreepro

Unknown said:


> I bought the core version a couple of months ago and while I don't really understand what sounds good yet, I have a rough idea that the strings sound good and what you mentioned about the brass and woodwind, I had noticed myself. For example whenever I bounced a composition, sometimes the flutes would skip a note at the start. I put that down to personal error but now it seems like it might be a bug or an incomplete patch. I also noticed that the woodwinds don't seem very loud or powerful, they easily get drowned out by strings. I've tried to max out the velocity but nothing seems to be working. Is that to do with the library itself or just my lack of experience?
> 
> ALSOOOOOO, I wish they would throw in a piano library


I've noticed there are still quirks with some things, for instance: playing short string notes, unless you specifically disconnect the notes in the piano roll, all the notes will not play properly (see attached photos, this is actually the exact set of screenshots I sent support when I contacted them about RAM use and what not).

So it wouldn't surprise me if there was some issue with the woodwinds as well. I did a series of posts when I first got this library, directly comparing the BBCSO sections with the same sections in the older Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra. It seems users unanimously agreed that the brass and woodwinds especially, were much worse in the BBCSO, while the percs and strings were much better in BBCSO. I mean, just listen to this, and tell me that the BBCSO sounds good or "natural" here... it's just, again, inconsistent and sloppy in comparison





Spitfire Audio “This is London Calling” - BBC Symphony Orchestra


from your answer I get that they all pretty different, but I guess from the demos that I heard SSS and SBBC are pretty close to each other I have them both, they sound very different. I’m actually planning a video comparing bbcso with SSO, as many people seem to wonder what they sound like back...




vi-control.net


----------



## jbuhler

Unknown said:


> I bought the core version a couple of months ago and while I don't really understand what sounds good yet, I have a rough idea that the strings sound good and what you mentioned about the brass and woodwind, I had noticed myself. For example whenever I bounced a composition, sometimes the flutes would skip a note at the start. I put that down to personal error but now it seems like it might be a bug or an incomplete patch. I also noticed that the woodwinds don't seem very loud or powerful, they easily get drowned out by strings. I've tried to max out the velocity but nothing seems to be working. Is that to do with the library itself or just my lack of experience?
> 
> ALSOOOOOO, I wish they would throw in a piano library


You can raise the volume on the woodwinds, either in the SF player or in the DAW. Or lower the volume or dynamics of the strings. I don’t have the library but my sense is that if you are using the template that SF provides that the instruments a pretty close to being realistically balanced. If that’s the case then it means you are likely riding the dynamics of your strings too high or playing the woodwinds in a register where they are naturally weak. 

You can check it by attempting to score up a few measures of a reference track, and match the sound of each of the instruments as closely as possible to what you are hearing in the recording. Remember that volume can be raised or lowered by gain but also by dynamics. So you need to listen for the timbre of the instrument (the dynamic level) as well as the absolute volume.

ETA. I’ve noticed in some recent SF libraries that the shorts are not well balanced against the longs (the shorts are comparatively too quiet) and I need to adjust the velocity curve and output level for the shorts. I don’t have BBCSO so I don’t know if that’s true for this library.


----------



## CT

The BBCSO winds (and everything else) are pretty naturally balanced. I wouldn't screw with those levels too much. Sounds more like an orchestration problem.


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## Nigel Andreola

Kevinside said:


> As in my other thread...Does BBCSO has a rebow feature for the strings, like css and others?


I have the violins 1 legato patch open in BBCSO Core. If I use the sustain peddle, CC 64, it holds the current note till I play a new one. When I play the same note twice it does a rebow.


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## icecoolpool

Nigel Andreola said:


> I have the violin ensemble legato patch open in BBCSO Core. If I use the sustain peddle, CC 64, it holds the current note till I play a new one. When I play the same note twice it does a rebow.


Thanks for posting this! I just want to confirm that this method works. I´ve seen people post online that the BBCSO offers no rebowing feature, but it does!


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## pavolbrezina

bfreepro said:


> You are completely putting words in my mouth here man. I have done these reviews for a long time. People come to me and appreciate the fact I am honest. I did not just play through the library "haphazardly", as I clearly state in my review as well... I literally used this as my main orchestral library for MONTHS and found it simply paled in comparison to what I had been using. I never state that no one should buy it, you completely ignore the positive things I say about it, and you also ignore the many times I state WHY I have come to these conclusions. Also, to state that someone's review "comes to the wrong conclusion" is ridiculous. It's a review. It comes to a DIFFERENT conclusion than you came to, but it's nowhere near being "wrong". I respect your opinions and appreciate the conversation, but seriously, read it again. I gave it 6/10. Saying I "panned the entire product" is honestly bullshit. You say you respect others opinions, but I don't think you actually do lol. Which is fine, but come on man, we can have this discussion without putting others down and making these wild assumptions. I tried to love this product and implemented it in my work for months, using it on many professional projects. I even state I love the percs and strings, and say it's a great value. A 6/10 is a 3/5, this is not a bad rating. Again, I own a significant amount of libraries, and this one simply can't keep up. It's not mean spirited, never once did I say it's garbage, that it sucks, that no one should buy it, I can't believe you'd say my review is "mean spirited", that honestly blows my mind, especially with the praise I give to certain elements.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, this is exactly what I did, is simply give my observations. Look how many reviews this library has gotten, 10/10, 5/5, stuff like that. So I am here wishing someone had been honest with me before I bought it, and given some realistic contrast to the perfect 10 reviews. That's all. There are PLENTY of reviews and opinions on this library. This is one coming from a very specific viewpoint and I go out of my way to make sure this is clear.


Man your review is not compatible with what i hear from walkthrough videos and complete productions. Especially in area of winds and brass. I would like to hear examples you are writting about. But i thing i am going to buy this one just to check your statements. Am i fool ?

Btw i have almost all libs from VSL so i know how the great library should sound...


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## Pixelpoet1985

pavolbrezina said:


> Man your review is not compatible with what i hear from walkthrough videos and complete productions. Especially in area of winds and brass. I would like to hear examples you are writting about. But i thing i am going to buy this one just to check your statements. Am i fool ?
> 
> Btw i have almost all libs from VSL so i know how the great library should sound...


Even though the library sounds very good, walkthroughs can fool you, it‘s not at the same level as VSL in terms of quality and scripting. Night and day. At least if you know the high quality you have with VSL. 

Some folks make comparisons, don‘t own VSL, and have no clue what they are talking about or have no clue of what they are missing not having VSL.

If you want a “pro” library that sounds real, stay with VSL. But “real” is rather subjective.


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## CT

pavolbrezina said:


> Man your review is not compatible with what i hear from walkthrough videos and complete productions. Especially in area of winds and brass. I would like to hear examples you are writting about. But i thing i am going to buy this one just to check your statements. Am i fool ?
> 
> Btw i have almost all libs from VSL so i know how the great library should sound...


Hello. I don't recall what this review was all about so won't comment on that, but as someone who in part uses BBCSO for the more classical ends that you seem to, and who has used VSL libraries in the past, my own experience has been that the former accomplishes much that I wanted but never got from the latter. 

While VSL is largely unmatched in the consistency of its programming, I've found the tradeoffs to be well worth the minor occasional bumpy user experience. Given that you're looking at combining the two rather than replacing, I think that will be even less of a concern. 

As always, the safest way to make a decision though is to listen to everything you can and decide if there is likely to be enough usable content for you in a product, despite possible issues, to justify the cost. 

If there's anything in particular you'd like to hear from BBCSO in order to aid your decision, let me know.


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## pavolbrezina

Mike T said:


> Hello. I don't recall what this review was all about so won't comment on that, but as someone who in part uses BBCSO for the more classical ends that you seem to, and who has used VSL libraries in the past, my own experience has been that the former accomplishes much that I wanted but never got from the latter.
> 
> While VSL is largely unmatched in the consistency of its programming, I've found the tradeoffs to be well worth the minor occasional bumpy user experience. Given that you're looking at combining the two rather than replacing, I think that will be even less of a concern.
> 
> As always, the safest way to make a decision though is to listen to everything you can and decide if there is likely to be enough usable content for you in a product, despite possible issues, to justify the cost.
> 
> If there's anything in particular you'd like to hear from BBCSO in order to aid your decision, let me know.


I would like to hear those problematic legatos from wind instruments


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## CT

pavolbrezina said:


> I would like to hear those problematic legatos from wind instruments


Ok. I'm not really sure what that refers to. Are there specific instruments that are supposed to have these issues?

One thing to bear in mind is that the legatos will vary in character based on your chosen mic mix. You can get a more defined, soloistic transition (similar to what one hears from VSL winds) by using closer combinations, but a more naturally blurry one by keeping the winds in context with the tree etc.


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## pavolbrezina

Mike T said:


> Ok. I'm not really sure what that refers to. Are there specific instruments that are supposed to have these issues?
> 
> One thing to bear in mind is that the legatos will vary in character based on your chosen mic mix. You can get a more defined, soloistic transition (similar to what one hears from VSL winds) by using closer combinations, but a more naturally blurry one by keeping the winds in context with the tree etc.


Sorry o just found i dont want to react on you but on thrrad starter


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## CT

Fair enough....


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## pavolbrezina

From what i hear on videos of BBC orchestra there is no library matching sound quality. Vsl has great software but their libraries after dimension strings start to sound very fake. And dont tell me things about some Kontakt libraries. Kontakt is terrible interface for orchestral work i never understand how someone can work with it innserious orchestral composition - not cheap cinematic garbage that anyone create these days.


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## pavolbrezina

bfreepro said:


> EDIT: after posting, I found out _this library will be updated in the coming weeks and I WILL revise this review where necessary after the updates._ Contrary to what some people assume, I really do want to love this library/plug-in and am genuinely happy they are releasing these updates!
> 
> Original Post:
> I held off on this too long but really felt the written reviews weren't nearly honest critical enough, leaving it to vloggers like Daniel James to report the real problems with the library. I prefer reading written reviews, so here you go. An honest, critical look from a "non-beginner" (who owns a TON of top notch libraries) on the BBCSO!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review: Spitfire's BBC Symphony Orchestra (Reviewed from the perspective of a "non-beginner") — B. Free Productions, LLC
> 
> 
> Hyped to death and touted as a revolution in orchestral sampling, does the BBCSO deliver?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bfreemusic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Verdict: 6/10
> FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT. I RESPECT THE COMPANY AND THEIR AMBITION AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE MONUMENTAL HYPE AND PROMISES IT MADE INITIALLY.


Sir please can you prove your statements about bad sound quality and scripting of winds and brass with examples? Because from walkthroughs videos i can hear only stunning performances no other library match. Thanx


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## bill5

Nigel Andreola said:


> I have the violin ensemble legato patch open in BBCSO Core.


? Core has no ensembles.


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## doctoremmet

pavolbrezina said:


> But i thing i am going to buy this one just to check your statements. Am i fool ?


If THAT’s a reason to buy it, yes - I’m sorry but that’s just foolish. Someone writes a review based on research and actual hands-on experience. He writes it down. You want to prove him wrong. Why haha? If your subjective opinion based on demos and YT walkthroughs differs from ONE reviewer... so what? Trust your own judgment. Buy it to make music, like many many happy customers on this forum have done and be done with it. Do not buy it to prove someone wrong. That’s just.... ridiculous. /rant


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## Markrs

This was a tricky thread, the reviewer didn't like certain aspects of the library, which in my view is cool. He then got a bit attacked for that, which is a shame as everyone is allowed there own opinion. Personally I have BBCSO Pro and love it, but in this thread I very much defended his right not to love it or even like it.

I worry that sometimes people take someone disagreeing or having a different view on things to them, rather personally. We all perceive the world differently including what we hear.


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## CT

bill5 said:


> ? Core has no ensembles.


He means the 1st or 2nd violin section/ensemble, presumably, given that he wrote "violin ensemble legato patch"....


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## bill5

OK, maybe I'm off in my understanding of what constitutes an "ensemble" and a "section." I thought they were two different things...a section is like brass, strings, etc. An ensemble is a (usually) smaller collection of instruments, not a whole section.


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## Trash Panda

pavolbrezina said:


> Sir please can you prove your statements about bad sound quality and scripting of winds and brass with examples? Because from walkthroughs videos i can hear only stunning performances no other library match. Thanx


Sound quality issue: Shorts are mushy. Want to do some fast Williams style repetitions with trumpets and trombones? Good luck.

Do you like lots of articulations that have fixed lengths so you’re forced to write to the samples and not have them work towards what you write? Got lots of those too.


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## CT

bill5 said:


> OK, maybe I'm off in my understanding of what constitutes an "ensemble" and a "section." I thought they were two different things...a section is like brass, strings, etc. An ensemble is a (usually) smaller collection of instruments, not a whole section.


Regardless of what the officially sanctioned definitions of these words are, I think it's possible to decipher what was meant, especially given that no version of this library offers anything traditionally thought of as "ensemble patches."



Trash Panda said:


> Sound quality issue: Shorts are mushy. Want to do some fast Williams style repetitions with trumpets and trombones? Good luck.
> 
> Do you like lots of articulations that have fixed lengths so you’re forced to write to the samples and not have them work towards what you write? Got lots of those too.


I do fast Williams style repetitions with relative ease. Careful combination of the normal shorts and multitongue samples makes this completely possible.

As for fixed length shorts, you can simply adjust the behavior of release triggers to be able to make them shorter if necessary.


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## Trash Panda

Mike T said:


> Regardless of what the officially sanctioned definitions of these words are, I think it's possible to decipher what was meant, especially given that no version of this library offers anything traditionally thought of as "ensemble patches."
> 
> 
> I do fast Williams style repetitions with relative ease. Careful combination of the normal shorts and multitongue samples makes this completely possible.
> 
> As for fixed length shorts, you can simply adjust the behavior of release triggers to be able to make them shorter if necessary.


If you can mock up the opening of the Star Wars main theme or the Indians Jones theme with the fast shorts and make it sound convincing with both trumpets and trombones, I will gladly rescind my statement.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Trash Panda said:


> If you can mock up the opening of the Star Wars main theme or the Indians Jones theme with the fast shorts and make it sound convincing with both trumpets and trombones, I will gladly rescind my statement.


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## CT

Trash Panda said:


> If you can mock up the opening of the Star Wars main theme or the Indians Jones theme with the fast shorts and make it sound convincing with both trumpets and trombones, I will gladly rescind my statement.


I don't really feel like doing that just to assuage your doubts. But I've no doubt it can absolutely be done to a reasonable degree of success as far as VI world standards go.


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## Alex Fraser

I thoroughly enjoy the “these sample libraries aren’t good enough for *my* music” crowd..” 😅


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## bill5

Mike T said:


> Regardless of what the officially sanctioned definitions of these words are


I don't think there is one, maybe that's the problem lol


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## Trash Panda

ALittleNightMusic said:


>



Yeah, that’s about what I was able to wrangle out of them too. Even a transient shaper couldn’t improve the attack.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Trash Panda said:


> Yeah, that’s about what I was able to wrangle out of them too. Even a transient shaper couldn’t improve the attack.


Sounds pretty phenomenal to me for the sample world. Every orchestra live recording is going to sound different to the next one as well.


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## Nigel Andreola

bill5 said:


> ? Core has no ensembles.


Thank you for pointing that out! I should have said the violins 1 legato patch. I meant it to mean a group of violins rather than a solo violin. I edited my comment to fix it. In a symphony, the ensemble would be the entire orchestra. Ensemble refers to all the parts/players of the whole performing group, such as an entire jazz band or all the players of a quintet. Yes, Core doesn't have such a patch. I don't believe Pro does either.


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## Trash Panda

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Sounds pretty phenomenal to me for the sample world. Every orchestra live recording is going to sound different to the next one as well.


Different strokes for different folks I guess. The trumpets are usually passable, but the trombones, especially the solo one, are so incredibly mushy. There’s very little snap in the transient, which is key for me in those short notes in pieces like this. Otherwise the attack gets lost, especially in a full mix.

That’s just the opinion of a lowly novice amateur who got his first sample library in June of last year. Maybe my ears are just not refined enough.


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## bfreepro

pavolbrezina said:


> Sir please can you prove your statements about bad sound quality and scripting of winds and brass with examples? Because from walkthroughs videos i can hear only stunning performances no other library match. Thanx


Hi there, you can search my past posts on this forum, I’ve shared direct comparisons of the spitfire symphonic woods with the bbc woods playing the same passages, pretty sure it’s either in the official Spitfire BBCSO thread (“this is london calling”, something like that) or the user created BBCSO thread. Should be easy to find. It’s actually since been updated and may now be totally awesome, I don’t know. I’m really kind of over arguing on this forum about personal subjective tastes, no offense to you, but I’ve moved on from this thread a long time ago after it brought out some of the most insufferable snobbery and condescension and just overall nastiness that I simply want no part in. If it sounds good to you, I don’t see what the problem is honestly. I am happy that you found something you enjoy, I’m not here to change anyone’s mind  best of luck


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## Kevperry777

Trash Panda said:


> Different strokes for different folks I guess. The trumpets are usually passable, but the trombones, especially the solo one, are so incredibly mushy. There’s very little snap in the transient, which is key for me in those short notes in pieces like this. Otherwise the attack gets lost, especially in a full mix.
> 
> That’s just the opinion of a lowly novice amateur who got his first sample library in June of last year. Maybe my ears are just not refined enough.



I agree the BBC trombones aren’t agile enough for the SW theme. Cinebrass and even Forzo trombones have a much better go at it.


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## CT

Oy vey, ok this is like a 10 minute robotic hackjob but I think the trombones can definitely be agile enough for it.


And actually, the tempo as marked in the suite, which I followed here, is a bit faster than he takes it in most of the score performances, so there's even more leeway.

Hmm listening back the correct quadruple multitongues didn't get triggered. Must have got the automation wrong. But they're also possible.


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## pavolbrezina

bfreepro said:


> Hi there, you can search my past posts on this forum, I’ve shared direct comparisons of the spitfire symphonic woods with the bbc woods playing the same passages, pretty sure it’s either in the official Spitfire BBCSO thread (“this is london calling”, something like that) or the user created BBCSO thread. Should be easy to find. It’s actually since been updated and may now be totally awesome, I don’t know. I’m really kind of over arguing on this forum about personal subjective tastes, no offense to you, but I’ve moved on from this thread a long time ago after it brought out some of the most insufferable snobbery and condescension and just overall nastiness that I simply want no part in. If it sounds good to you, I don’t see what the problem is honestly. I am happy that you found something you enjoy, I’m not here to change anyone’s mind  best of luck


It is not that library sounds good dor me. I kindly ask you to send examples of problematic samples because from online videos it sounds opposite. Thanx


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## bfreepro

pavolbrezina said:


> It is not that library sounds good dor me. I kindly ask you to send examples of problematic samples because from online videos it sounds opposite. Thanx


Gotcha. Well all the info and samples I have gathered and created comparing and critiquing the library are all readily available on the forums here, you can do a search specifically for my username and search only for stuff that contains media or links. I have the updated version of the library now, so it might also sound totally different now, I basically don’t have access to the old version I initially reviewed anymore. I still rarely use it and haven’t had time to extensively test or experiment with a library when I prefer others that are more reliable to get my work done. Again this thread was created quite some time ago and today I don’t have much free time to devote to making new audio examples and what not. I was actually planning to follow up and talk about the new updated version, and I still very well might do so, just really don’t have the free time to devote to it these days, and I barely get on this forum anymore, again just due to lack of free time. I just commented again here because I was emailed about being tagged/replied to. Regardless, I’ve gone out of my way many, many times to kind of just “defend” or explain my own opinion to those who seemed very offended which understandably gets really tiresome and just causes everyone to argue even more, and I honestly just stopped caring haha. At the end of the day, all the audio examples are all out there and available for those who want to find them. Again, nothing personal towards you, just kind of moved on and I’ll be honest, a bit soured after a lot of the BS from this thread, ya know. Just better things to do with my time I’ve realized  I still do reviews and a bunch of other stuff, just don’t really care about sharing them anymore. Most of them are with Sample Library Review anyway which Don posts here.


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## pavolbrezina

Ok so i bought it and going to learn what can be done with it.


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## pavolbrezina

Ok here is what i found. Is hard to show in examples you must play it by yourself. So BBSO sounds like real interpretation compared to most expensive soundbanks from VSL ( i have them all). So i am turning to BBSO completly. Sure they have some quirks and problems with software but i can live with it.


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## CT

Well, I'm glad you've found it to have been a worthwhile purchase. Most VIs can be great in one way or another... getting hung up on minor flaws is probably just an excuse for us to not do our absolute best with them.


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## mybadmemory

Agreed. It has a realness to it that few other libraries can match, both in terms of cohesiveness, but also while just playing one or a few parts on their own.


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## Daniel James

bfreepro said:


> EDIT: after posting, I found out _this library will be updated in the coming weeks and I WILL revise this review where necessary after the updates._ Contrary to what some people assume, I really do want to love this library/plug-in and am genuinely happy they are releasing these updates!
> 
> Original Post:
> I held off on this too long but really felt the written reviews weren't nearly honest critical enough, leaving it to vloggers like Daniel James to report the real problems with the library. I prefer reading written reviews, so here you go. An honest, critical look from a "non-beginner" (who owns a TON of top notch libraries) on the BBCSO!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Review: Spitfire's BBC Symphony Orchestra (Reviewed from the perspective of a "non-beginner") — B. Free Productions, LLC
> 
> 
> Hyped to death and touted as a revolution in orchestral sampling, does the BBCSO deliver?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bfreemusic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Verdict: 6/10
> FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER AND CAN AFFORD IT AND HAVE A NICE SYSTEM TO RUN IT, IT’S A GOOD CHOICE, AND A VERY SOLID VALUE. NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT, BUT GOOD TO START WITH. IF YOU ARE A COMPOSER WHO HAS SOME TOP NOTCH LIBRARIES ALREADY, TRUST ME, SKIP IT. I RESPECT THE COMPANY AND THEIR AMBITION AND WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE MONUMENTAL HYPE AND PROMISES IT MADE INITIALLY.


Trust me, this shit isn't a hill worth dying on. Minds are very much made up about this one by now and I don't think anyone can say anything to change minds. I appreciate written reviews btw, it would be cool if you could include short audio snippets interjected into your text where appropriate though. Those tend to be the most useful for the written review format these days. Then when you critique something you can give an example alongside so that you don't get people calling for evidence with every single critique. Its one of the reasons I don't like to edit much, people can't accuse you of anything as its all there to see.

Good work mate, I'm looking forward to catching your future reviews.

-DJ


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## pavolbrezina

A lot of people complaining about the mess of background noises as chairs accidental hits etc. I think this is hillarious. Did you kniw that VSL dimension series has extensive banks of this kind of FX that you can incorporate so the performance sounds narural? Now it is end of countless hours of random inserting of fx, i have it directly. This is great, really


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## mussnig

pavolbrezina said:


> A lot of people complaining about the mess of background noises as chairs accidental hits etc. I think this is hillarious. Did you kniw that VSL dimension series has extensive banks of this kind of FX that you can incorporate so the performance sounds narural? Now it is end of countless hours of random inserting of fx, i have it directly. This is great, really


I haven't encountered this issue so far myself (mostly, because I haven't used BBCSO too extensively yet but I want to start using it more and more) but this gets problematic a) if you don't want to have these sounds at all (and yes, for some purposes you don't want to have such noises) b) if you repeatedly hear the same background noises again and again (e.g. if you write some repetitive pattern like an Ostinato).

Of course, for many people this won't be a problem because it either won't occur too often for them or they like these noises (because of realism). But there will definitely be people for whom this is very annoying and a big issue ...


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## FrozenIcicle

Thanks for the review, I held off buying BBC. Do you have a review for Abbey Road? Can’t seem to find on your site


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## gives19

I totally dig the Abbey Road vibe. Have used it. Like the sound better than BBC.. BBC is an acquired taste however.


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## gives19

There is a recent update to Albion One. I'll post details in another thread, but just noticed it. Adds features to things is a hint.


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## isabellaiss001

Thank for review, good info!


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