# "Moods" and the orchestra



## Count_Fuzzball (May 29, 2017)

I realise this might be a very vague topic, but would someone be able to give me a sort of broad 'run down' of how the sections of an orchestra could be used to evoke particular emotions?

As an example, I guess the french horns section can be used to imply a serene mood when played p/m and aggressive mood played in fffffffff(add/subtract Fs to taste  )

Or

The woodwinds sections could be used for more playful sections.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here with these examples?
Cheers.


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## JimmyPoppa (May 29, 2017)

This might be helpful

https://www.macprovideo.com/tutorial/music-scoring-101-creating-moods-and-styles


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 29, 2017)

Count_Fuzzball said:


> Am I barking up the wrong tree here with these examples?



I'm sure a lot of people would see it differently, but I believe so, yes. The only thing one can achieve by categorizing "moods" is getting down all the terrible, insufferable clichés of film and media music. Which, granted, for some people might be the greatest goal.

As an alternative, I suggest learning about instruments, specifically learning not just about their repertoire, but also their mechanics. Understanding how instruments work, how they are played, how they produce sound and what they sound like in which register opens up the mind for expressing real and original intuition, instead of parrotting stereotypes. If there is need for categorizing, I'd rather categorize all the different "colors" or "scents" or "tastes" or however you see it, of, for example, an oboe. What your heart makes of these impressions is an individual thing.

Personally, I tend to think in "sections" less, but more in ideas of weight, motion and color. Most of music ultimately comes down to motion. I like to "look" at my phrases, motifs, rhythms etc. and think about their range an direction of movement, their weight, density, inertia. Most of the time, that already tells me which instruments could and should play the part. Thinking in these more open categories often leads to more tasteful combinations, pairings etc.


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## byzantium (May 29, 2017)

JimmyPoppa said:


> This might be helpful
> 
> https://www.macprovideo.com/tutorial/music-scoring-101-creating-moods-and-styles



Hi, thanks for that. Have you taken that course or other Gary Guttman courses? How did you find them? I think I remember listening to his music a while back and being impressed. Thanks.


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## ricz (May 29, 2017)

Jimmy nails it in his reply above.

All I know is that nothing good ever happens when you hear stopped horns.


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## JimmyPoppa (May 30, 2017)

byzantium said:


> Hi, thanks for that. Have you taken that course or other Gary Guttman courses? How did you find them? I think I remember listening to his music a while back and being impressed. Thanks.



I've taken this course and something else by him. IMO, he gives a clear explanation of standard methods of achieving certain sounds or 'moods.' He's got a lot of specific techniques worked out. It's up to you whether you want to work that way but it's nice to be aware of how things have been achieved by others.

Here are a couple of YouTube links that are directly from the course:


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## Flaneurette (Jun 4, 2017)

Yeah it is pretty vague.

I suggest this book: https://howmusicreallyworks.com/

On a first glance, the website looks like it's written in the nineties and has this clip-art cover on it. But don't be fooled by that. The book itself is beautiful. It explains pretty much everything from a scientific biological and psychological standpoint as well as giving real world examples. It's mostly written for songwriters, but I really enjoyed reading it and still keep it as a reference.

Check this example

Six chapters (450 pages) are for free online. But buying the whole book is recommended. It has close to 900 pages.


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## JPQ (Jun 4, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> Yeah it is pretty vague.
> 
> I suggest this book: https://howmusicreallyworks.com/
> 
> ...


Is harder order other side world saddly my favorite book store dont offer this. makes me think if Reel World,On the track books help this thing? i asked in own thread this but i think i dont yet get ansvers to it.


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## trumpoz (Jun 5, 2017)

Count_Fuzzball said:


> I realise this might be a very vague topic, but would someone be able to give me a sort of broad 'run down' of how the sections of an orchestra could be used to evoke particular emotions?
> 
> As an example, I guess the french horns section can be used to imply a serene mood when played p/m and aggressive mood played in fffffffff(add/subtract Fs to taste  )
> 
> ...


I spend 2 years working on how expressive outcones are created in music with my Year 11 and 12 students (last 2 years of high school in Aus) plus numerous others. Honestly go out and listen to a wide range of music. I mean *really* listen to the composition and mood it creates - get hold of scores if you can. I highly recommend the score of The Planets by Holst as there so many different chatacters and moods created and it is a stunning suite. I have a recording of the New York Phil under the baton of Leonard Bernstein...... simply stunning to listen to and follow tge score


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## byzantium (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks Jimmy. I found that second video in particular very interesting - i.e. the effect of different supporting rhythms on exactly the same melody. Cheers. 



JimmyPoppa said:


> I've taken this course and something else by him. IMO, he gives a clear explanation of standard methods of achieving certain sounds or 'moods.' He's got a lot of specific techniques worked out. It's up to you whether you want to work that way but it's nice to be aware of how things have been achieved by others.
> 
> Here are a couple of YouTube links that are directly from the course:


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## Mike Marino (Jun 5, 2017)

Mike Verta also did a masterclass on moods for his Composition 2 class:
http://mikeverta.com/product/online-masterclass-composition-2/


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2017)

Count_Fuzzball said:


> I realise this might be a very vague topic, but would someone be able to give me a sort of broad 'run down' of how the sections of an orchestra could be used to evoke particular emotions?
> 
> As an example, I guess the french horns section can be used to imply a serene mood when played p/m and aggressive mood played in fffffffff(add/subtract Fs to taste  )
> 
> ...



its vague because doesn't seem many people want to talk about it besides "learn music theory" type of posts. (maybe its not simple!)
the garry guttman course mentioned above would be great if there where more composers doing these type of examples. since the audience is the one understanding the mood, newer movies and newer composers might have a different approach. to me the examples above where very cheesy. what happens if you are scoring a more of a thriller? would you use that intro if the scene is similar? what happens if its in south LA yet you want to keep the light mood but still close into the hardship of the place? 
There was another thread that mentioned mixed modes and its that new superhero style and it mixed mayor and minor modes. I think someone mentioned its in one chapter in one book I cannot longer find.
Id also would like to learn more of these "devices" to create moods and find starting points. a lot of times its nothing related to music theory or orchestration. maybe a sound sfx and a tremolo string will create enough mood.
it would be great to have a list of movies with the cue and metadata for each emotions, etc.


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## Saxer (Jun 5, 2017)

For every musician her or his main instrument includes the whole universe of emotions. There are calm or lyric or aggressive or virtuous parts in music for every instrument. Obviously there are borders. You can't play deep drones on flutes. But there are flute quartets out there who play arrangements for their instruments and they include bass parts as well. I'd recommend listening to smaller ensembles which have to exploit the possibilities of single instruments instead of switching from section to section of the orchestra to fit the common expectations. Especially 'same instrument groups' like french horn quartets show a lot of the instruments range in any aspect.
It's not bad to know what the single orchestral sections are good for compared to the others. But it's also good to know what they are able to if they don't do their 'main' job.


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## re-peat (Jun 6, 2017)

Saxer said:


> (...) I'd recommend listening ... (...)



And listen to your libraries as well while you’re at it. Much more important, I believe, than compiling a database of what should work according to the textbooks or according to existing examples in the real world.

One of the bigger and most frustrating differences between sampled and real instruments, is that the latter can, as Saxer also said in the post above, be many things and assume many personalities, whereas the former is usually only one thing (and even that is not always a given).

A real trumpet can do poignant and sad, or clownesque, or heroic, it can shift from melancholic to affirmative from one bar to the next, it can do victorious adventure and deep tragedy equally well, it can whisper, bark, shout, curse or sooth, all within the space of a few seconds … whereas with a sampled instrument, you already have to count yourself very lucky if it more or less sounds like a trumpet to begin with.

Things which should, on paper, be pretty much the same, can vary a lot from library to library: a phrase played with 8dio’s Claire oboe, for example, conveys something quite different than that same phrase does when played with the VSL or the Berlin oboe. And the XSample oboe has a high-spirited, jolly quality which you won’t find in many other sampled oboes.
Play the exact same chord with horns from library X and then with horns from library Y, and there’s a good chance you’ll be communicating two very different ‘emotional’ messages.
Some virtual harps are very good at suggesting a magical fairy-tale world if you give them the right notes to play, other harps simply irritate or cause sonic problems when given those exact same notes …
The humour that a bassoon is capable of, may be present in one library but not in another, even when playing the same notes. The solitude that a soft solo clarinet can evoke so well, is beyond the capabilities of many libraries: some can do it, others just can’t. (And those that can do it, then often fail at also suggesting the exuberant and extravert character that an agile real clarinet can assume so effectively too.)
Or … just compare sampled pianos: the huge difference in ‘emotional radiance’ from one piano to the next, even if the same brand and type, is often quite staggering.

And the list is, sadly, endless.

It’s even not a rarity with libraries that, after transposing a line half a step up- or downwards, its feeling changes profoundly, because of the inconsistency in character among the samples. Another something to watch out for.

So, educational as it may be to listen to as much music as you can, and to read as much on this subject as you find the time for, eventually, a lot of what you’re going to be able to say with your virtual orchestra, viz. moods, emotions and effective story-telling, is defined and decided on by the material that you work with (and how well you work with it). So, best to know it really really well, I would think.

_


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## trumpoz (Jun 6, 2017)

re-peat said:


> And listen to your libraries as well while you’re at it. Much more important, I believe, than compiling a database of what should work according to the textbooks or according to existing examples in the real world.
> 
> One of the bigger and most frustrating differences between sampled and real instruments, is that the latter can, as Saxer also said in the post above, be many things and assume many personalities, whereas the former is usually only one thing (and even that is not always a given).
> 
> ...



Fantastic post.


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## byzantium (Jun 6, 2017)

Great posts above from re-peat and saxer. So well written.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 6, 2017)

re-peat said:


> And listen to your libraries as well while you’re at it. Much more important, I believe, than compiling a database of what should work according to the textbooks or according to existing examples in the real world.
> 
> One of the bigger and most frustrating differences between sampled and real instruments, is that the latter can, as Saxer also said in the post above, be many things and assume many personalities, whereas the former is usually only one thing (and even that is not always a given).
> 
> ...



Bulls Eye, On point!


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## jonathanparham (Jun 6, 2017)

I was just reviewing some of Peter Alexanders Principles of Orchestration and he suggests using the spectrophone chart and chromatically playing through your library to hear the tones. There are so many libraries out there now


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