# So... Adagio or not Adagio?



## SPOTS (May 5, 2012)

The Pre order deal stops tomorrow at midnight (and funny enough it's based on our local time, not on the West coast time zone).

So will I buy it or not... I am still struggling. Not that I think it's not good enough, but pondering the purchase of Adagio vs other stuff I must buy this month. Balancing a 200$ discount vs other products with higher priority.

Argh... money money money... _-)


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## playz123 (May 5, 2012)

Exactly; same here. I'm going to have to decide today, but am asking myself similar questions. Worth it or not, it's a lot of money for only violins, and that's only the beginning of the series. I also have other string libraries, and the question is "how much will this add?" Face it; for another $100, one could buy Cinematic Strings for example. Tough call for many, I'm sure, especially those whose budgets are limited.


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## SPOTS (May 5, 2012)

Exactly. 400$ for violins only... with no clue how much will the other volumes be selling for (I expect violins to be the more expensive though, as they are likely offering more articulations than all other sections).


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## paulcole (May 5, 2012)

CS2 in a no brainer.


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## Niah (May 5, 2012)

tick tock tick tock tick...

o[])


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## jamwerks (May 5, 2012)

I've preordered and looking forward to this new library.

It may be lack of time and wanting to respect their third announced launch date, but don't seem like a commercially successful launch.

IMO, better to have all ready 1 week before, with tons of videos, articulation walkthroughs, etc, and give all a week to hear all and decide. Maybe they could extend the preorder deadline for several days after the launch.


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## Niah (May 5, 2012)

Anyone wanna hang out at Bill Brown's studio and fiddle with Schindler's violin?

PS: Bring pizza and soda


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## SPOTS (May 5, 2012)

jamwerks @ Sat May 05 said:


> I've preordered and looking forward to this new library.
> 
> It may be lack of time and wanting to respect their third announced launch date, but don't seem like a commercially successful launch.
> 
> IMO, better to have all ready 1 week before, with tons of videos, articulation walkthroughs, etc, and give all a week to hear all and decide. Maybe they could extend the preorder deadline for several days after the launch.



I fully agree with you on this. I was expecting to have more walkthroughs videos. In the end, it's really not much asking from a potential customer's perspective to expect knowing EXACTLY what you are about to buy.

As you say, the commercial launch is definitely a failure and by no mean they could delay the launch date one more time. But they could at least extend the grace period by a week or two once they have released all the videos they say they will put online.
Other serious companies like Cinesamples for instance don't have pre-orders but have a special launch deal that lasts for a bit upon the launch of their product. 
Same for Spitfire Audio. To me that's the way things should be. Pre-ordering is only a way for the company to make money with a product that is still under development.

IMO 8dio should definitely extend the pre order deal for a bit after they've put all their promised walkthrough videos online.


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## FredrikJonasson (May 5, 2012)

I just can't decide. It's a lot of money, but even more it's terrible how they treat their customers and I'm not a fan of their marketing strategy. I guess I have a problem trusting this company...


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## Stephen Baysted (May 5, 2012)

FredrikJonasson @ Sat May 05 said:


> I just can't decide. It's a lot of money, but even more it's terrible how they treat their customers and I'm not a fan of their marketing strategy. I guess I have a problem trusting this company...




In my experience, 8Dio has really great customer service and they develop excellent libraries for very reasonable prices. Always happy to buy their stuff and use it.


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## SPOTS (May 5, 2012)

I don't have a problem trusting the quality of 8dio's products, but I am not comfortable with their marketing and customer service either. Feels like light years from companies like Spitfire Audio, Soundiron, and many more.


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## JT (May 5, 2012)

My #1 rule, don't buy something just because it's on sale. Buy what you need and will use.

I don't make 100% of my income from writing and making mockups, so my experience may differ from yours. To me, $400 is a lot for violins only. To me, when you purchase this lib., you're commiting yourself to buying the other string libs also.

You could buy CS or LASS Lite for just what these violins cost. 

All libraries have strengths and weaknesses. None of them are perfect and none of them can replace the real thing no matter how expensive the lib is.

As for the company itself, they've promised an update to Requiem Pro a long time ago, where is it?


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## victorv (May 5, 2012)

JT @ 5/5/2012 said:


> My #1 rule, don't buy something just because it's on sale. Buy what you need and will use.
> 
> I don't make 100% of my income from writing and making mockups, so my experience may differ from yours. To me, $400 is a lot for violins only. To me, when you purchase this lib., you're commiting yourself to buying the other string libs also.
> 
> You could buy CS or LASS Lite for just what these violins cost.



+1
IMHO $400 only for violins is kind of high price, if you want good sound strings with more 99 dollars you get CS 2!


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## Folmann (May 5, 2012)

Adagio Pre-order ends 5/21/12.

I would be careful comparing Adagio to any other string library. Adagio Violins alone is larger in size then CS2 and I could make a million arguments why (ex. 10 different legato types, legato round robin, loure, dynamic bowings, 10RR on short notes, 5 types spiccato, divisi violins, solo violins etc). 

They are completely different products. 

CS2 is a great more wide string ensemble (no divisi, no solo). Adagio Violins is deep-sampled violins in solo, divisi and ensemble. We are the first ever to do round robin legato. The first ever to connected legato to other articulations like loure (repeated notes) and dynamic bowings - and a million other things that I won't bother you with. 

In addition we are very comfortable with the pricing on Adagio, which is primarily targeted towards professionals. The feedback we have gotten from some of the worlds most known composers has been absolutely stellar, so we are highly confident in terms of the quality too. 

I do understand that it is not for everybody, but that was never the intention either. 

Adagio is a professional deep-sampled string product series targeted/priced for professionals and we have no current plans for creating lite versions of it.


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## jamwerks (May 5, 2012)

Well I'm in for the whole library and excited about it.

Some people though just don't want or need 10 different types of legato, dynamic bowing, feather spiccato, etc. Why not do a lite version? I think you guys would be cutting yourselves short on a lot a money by not doing so.....


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## FredrikJonasson (May 5, 2012)

Stephen Baysted @ Sat May 05 said:


> In my experience, 8Dio has really great customer service and they develop excellent libraries for very reasonable prices. Always happy to buy their stuff and use it.



I absolutely agree on the quality of their libraries, and I do not doubt that this library will be super. I don't question the pricing either. It's the "delete complaints so no one can see it"-issue that bothers me the most! 

BUT

If the release still is tomorrow, the stretched preorder period is the kind of nice gesture I have waited for. Great!


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## Wes Antczak (May 5, 2012)

I think that CS2 _is_ a no brainer. 

As for 8DIO, I have no problem trusting the company. I was a Tonehammer customer for a number of years and their service was always top notch. I have found 8DIO (and Soundiron for that matter) to be every bit as good.

As for Adagio... that is potentially a no brainer as well. Granted there are three more components coming, so the overall investment will be a lot bigger, but if you're going to be using these libraries on a regular basis and earning money from your music and mockups... well, it is what it is.

I said that CS2 is a no brainer, but ultimately the #1 rule applies to anything... obviously, don't buy something just because it's on sale!!! Sure saving $200 (I think it is?) is nice, and by extension could be $800 in the long run. But so what if you're spending it on something you're not going to use or something that you don't absolutely need. Right?

If you don't think you need it right away, then wait. I'm sure after it's released we're going to be hearing a lot of feedback from users, and at that point you can make a more informed decision beginning with the next round. Personally, I'm probably going to take a pass at this time and I'm hoping that when all the sections are out there might be a slight discount for a complete bundle. But I have no problem with the early adapters getting a break for buying early... just like, for example, there was introductory pricing for Albion, etc.

Oh... and I'm guessing there might be lite versions when everything is said and done, but I wouldn't expect them until much later. I don't believe there was a LASS lite initially either.


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## midphase (May 5, 2012)

JT @ Sat May 05 said:


> My #1 rule, don't buy something just because it's on sale. Buy what you need and will use.




+1000


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2012)

midphase @ Sat May 05 said:


> JT @ Sat May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > My #1 rule, don't buy something just because it's on sale. Buy what you need and will use.
> ...



+ 1001


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## SPOTS (May 5, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sat May 05 said:


> midphase @ Sat May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > JT @ Sat May 05 said:
> ...


I agree on the principle. My struggle is that it's not a priority today but I will very likely need it in 2-3 months from now (if the solo violin is truly as good as I could perceive in the demos). Hence my hesitation. But given the introductory price is now extended 'til May 21st, I have no doubt I will be able to make up my mind by then (and hopefully Cinewinds won't hit the market in the meantime).


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## jleckie (May 5, 2012)

The library is made by PROFESSIONALS for PROFESSIONALS and PROFESSIONALS use it. PROFESSIONALS like it. PROFESSIONALS endorse it.

Did I mention professional.

Are YOU a professional?


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## Folmann (May 5, 2012)

Its true though ...

: )

- T


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## G.R. Baumann (May 5, 2012)

hehehe.... and costing 499 professional USD without giving you any rights to sell on the library if you ever wish to do so.


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## Tanuj Tiku (May 5, 2012)

8Dio makes some really cool products and clearly Troels and Colin have been working hard on this library.

One thing to remember is that creating such products is a time consuming process and they really have to make sure that its going to stand the test of time. 

If you really look at it, Adagio violins is not that expensive. By comparison, if you bought Orchestral Strings I and II extended + Chamber Strings Extended+Solo Strings Extended from VSL (giving you access to divisi etc), it will cost you $4761 for the entire string section.

If you divide the price by 4 (4 different string sections - violins, violas etc), then each section will cost you approximately $1200. 

However, VSL is a very large collection of samples. I have not checked 8dio articulation list in detail but Adagio is not actually the first library to come up with round robin legato both for repetition and intervals. This feature has been in VSL for many years already.

On the bow repetitions also exist. You have 9-way round robin and this was done like years ago! 8Dio has taken this further and made the loure tempo-synced.

Measured tremelo is not included in VSL at this time. With the VI Pro 2 player, you can really mess with the samples and create many different versions and create matrix files. The VI Pro 2 sampler is the most advanced sampler available and VSL is definitely the most progressive software company on the market.

A lot of people think that VSL is old and not as good but its still one of the finest libraries out there even after all these years and can compete with the best of them!

The BIG difference is that you have to really craft a sound out of VSL which takes a lot of time. And you really have to set everything up properly. But once you have done this, some pretty good results can be achieved.

8Dio is great at developing hands-on libraries and they usually sit well within the mix. Their concept is very different for sure. They have included many different legatos in particular styles and are actually after the imperfections rather than the perfection that VSL is known for, as an example.

Investing in Adagio right now may or may not be good depending on what you already own. The tone is very different and somewhat set in some ways. So, if you already produce this kind of sound, I think it will be great to add to your bank but if you already own the complete VSL like me, it does not make sense right now because I would have to wait for the other string choirs to come out.

I think more than the articulations and innovations that 8Dio are talking about, its the tone, the recording and scripting in terms of playability and realism that its really trying to communicate. 

With VSL, I already own 5 different legatos for each collection, all of which you can tweak. Plus I have additional Zigane legatos in Chamber strings etc. I have also had 9 round robin repetition, legato and intervals plus some dynamic bowings. So for me, if I bought Adagio, I will buy it for the tone and the recording quality itself.

Some of their demos are impressive.

So if you dont have any major string library, then its a very valid choice. And if you are a professional and need this kind of tone then you just need it! Thats what Troels is trying to say, $400 for a professional is nothing for the sound you will get with this.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## schatzus (May 5, 2012)

Wow...since when did Troels/8dio become the "bad developer" around here? I have been happy with every Tonehamer/8dio product I have ever purchased. I still use all of the them and have never been disappointed after the purchase. (Can you say that about every library you ever purchase?)
Honestly, a company's website, Facebook, Twitter account is about marketing. Would anyone here allow someone to comment on your composer website about how bad they thought your compositions were?
...everyone has an opinion...
I don't understand the thought process that says you have the right to hem-n-haw your negative opinions on ANY company's website and if they don't keep it there they are somehow unjust.
Anyway, off my soapbox.
Just sayin'


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## zvenx (May 5, 2012)

I for one am glad the pre-order period has been extended..... I can let others be the guinea pig 
rsp


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## playz123 (May 5, 2012)

schatzus @ Sat May 05 said:


> Wow...since when did Troels/8dio become the "bad developer" around here? I have been happy with every Tonehamer/8dio product I have ever purchased. I still use all of the them and have never been disappointed after the purchase. (Can you say that about every library you ever purchase?)
> Honestly, a company's website, Facebook, Twitter account is about marketing. Would anyone here allow someone to comment on your composer website about how bad they thought your compositions were?
> ...everyone has an opinion...
> I don't understand the thought process that says you have the right to hem-n-haw your negative opinions on ANY company's website and if they don't keep it there they are somehow unjust.
> ...



It appears that you might have been replying to only one person or perhaps two people ?? I don't think most people have anything negative to say about 8DIO or are attacking Troels, and most of us have 8DIO and Tonehammer products with which we are most happy. The focus of the thread is mainly on Adagio, what it costs, whether or not we need it or whether or not we should consider a purchase. Troels reputation and that of his company are, IMHO, solid.

PS: The extended pre-order period is greatly appreciated!


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## SPOTS (May 5, 2012)

playz123 said:


> PS: The extended pre-order period is greatly appreciated!


Absolutely. Even though I think it's just fair from 8dio, I definitely appreciate the extension. I will feel a lot more comfortable having time to evaluate more thoroughly the purchase.


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## Sam (May 5, 2012)

Folmann @ Sat May 05 said:


> We are the first ever to do round robin legato.



I have no doubt about the qualities of Adagio, and I look forward to test it, but this is not true.

Lass offers two legato round robin on each patch. It does not work well on a single patch (because of the changing timbre), but take shape when combining the 3 divisis. This blending allow the creation of new round robin legato :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qISSGejV-nE


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## jleckie (May 5, 2012)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat May 05 said:


> hehehe.... and costing 499 professional USD without giving you any rights to sell on the library if you ever wish to do so.



my dear sir- professionals do not SELL their libraries. They are BURIED with them.


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## schatzus (May 5, 2012)

> It appears that you might have been replying to only one person or perhaps two people ??



Just a general theme lately regarding Adagio and the extended pre-order time frame.
Not positive at all. I know from the 8dio reputation this is going to be something special.


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## Arbee (May 5, 2012)

I'm currently playing around with VI Pro 2 and VSL Solo/Chamber strings to see what sort of results I can get given the extraordinary amount of articulations (inc 2nd Violins!) and layering controls in this software. Saving your own "out of the box presets" is also a great feature.

I'll make a call on Adagio once I'm sure I've exploited this approach fully.


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## FredrikJonasson (May 5, 2012)

schatzus @ Sun May 06 said:


> Honestly, a company's website, Facebook, Twitter account is about marketing. Would anyone here allow someone to comment on your composer website about how bad they thought your compositions were?



Obviously, quite a few got very upset with the release being moved so far when they already pre ordered it. And it seems that 8dio didn't deal with some of these people, no mail, nothing. That's really ignorant. 

Facebook, twitter et.c. should of course be forums to express both good and bad experiences, where else? It's not that serious as long as the company meets the complaints and show that they are concerned about their costumers. Of course everyone has an opinion. 

And I don't agree it's the same thing as visiting a composers page and yell how hard their compositions suck. If you buy something and get it after months of delays, of course you can complain. My personal opinion is that a delay of this kind is very human, it's more about how they meet their customers. 

Again, I have good experiences of my 8dio libraries, and I think to change the preorder period to after the release is just great.


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## G.R. Baumann (May 6, 2012)

> my dear sir- professionals do not SELL their libraries. They are BURIED with them.



Hehehe! Not so long ago, in rural NW Ireland where I live, there was a dispute between a priest and they family about the gifts left on the grave. The priest did not want certain gifts to be left, and he seriously upset the family by demanding to remove them.

As no one really knows what comes after, the question just struck me, should I bring my backups too, just in case?

I do like 8Dio Products, personally, I think their marketing is a pain in the butt, prices too high, thus I never bought anything from them except when it is on special offer.

As for the original question, not knowing what already is owned, if this would be my first strings, it would be CS2...no brainer really.


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## Resoded (May 6, 2012)

I think that some people just want an apology and a symbolic gesture. Personally I'm happy with 8dio but I'm seeing how frustrated some people are, I'm a bit surprised that they haven't done much to alleviate that. Considering how important marketing is and the fact that many companies works very hard to keep people happy, sometimes no matter what. Then again, some people on this forum can be unnecessarily harsh and I wouldn't be surprised if most of this blows over when everyone gets to play with the adagios and hopefully feel that their expectations were met.

I'm thinking that each second 8dio doesn't spend calming people here, they spend on making our product better. Or maybe sleep, I don't know if they have time for that considering how many libraries they release.


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## jamwerks (May 6, 2012)

Keep in mind these companies (8dio, Cinsamples, Orchestral tools, LASS, etc.) that we deal with are often 2-3 man operations.

And they are clearly passionate about music and a little less knowledgable in marketing & communication.


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## stargazer (May 6, 2012)

jleckie @ Sun May 06 said:


> my dear sir- professionals do not SELL their libraries. They are BURIED with them.


Professionals are buried IN their libraries /\~O


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

I gotta admit-I just don't think Troels thinks about his marketing remarks sometimes. My guess is that sleep-deprivation causes this.

"For professionals"-so hobbyists and students need not apply to buy Adagio? Their business is not encouraged or solicited? Really??

If that's so, it's one of the more interesting business models I've encountered.


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> I gotta admit-I just don't think Troels thinks about his marketing remarks sometimes. My guess is that sleep-deprivation causes this.
> 
> "For professionals"-so hobbyists and students need not apply to buy Adagio? Their business is not encouraged or solicited? Really??
> 
> If that's so, it's one of the more interesting business models I've encountered.



I think maybe he might have chosen more political correct terms, but it doesn't change the point.
The Synclavier or Fairlight were never meant to be tools for the hobbyist or student musicians (well unless you also had a trust fund )...

I think that one of the 'cons' that comes with software synths and libraries, is that although it has made the best tools available at a fraction of what their equivalent would have cost years ago (which I am very very very grateful for) it also comes with a new sense of entitlement...

rsp


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## Ed (May 6, 2012)

I dunno I think it makes sense. They arent targeting "hobbyists and students" and so priced accordingly. As zvenx said, Synclavier and Fairlight werent for the "hobbyist or student" either, should they have actually only been $100 to buy? No, because they were built for professionals.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I gotta admit-I just don't think Troels thinks about his marketing remarks sometimes. My guess is that sleep-deprivation causes this.
> ...



I agree that the democratizing of technology has been a good thing in certain ways, though not so great for anyone who was still making good money in the composing business 10 years ago, ahem). Part of that is the move to pure software as opposed to physical products.

However, I think comparing a $150,000 investment to a $399 product is fairly ludicrous as far as a "for professionals" product compared to a "for all" product. The better equivalent would be Roland or Akai CD-ROMS that went for $200-$400 apiece. Many years ago, Eric Persing/Bob Daspit, et al put together a $500 2 CD-ROM Roland orchestral strings and brass set that were amazingly comprehensive and great sounding for the time. That's more in line with Adagio, to me.

Additionally, I'm sure the makers of the Synclavier or Fairlight would have been delighted to sell a unit to anyone who wished to buy one. I don't think they included a "for professionals" sticker.


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

Ed @ Sun May 06 said:


> I dunno I think it makes sense. They arent targeting "hobbyists and students" and so priced accordingly. As zvenx said, Synclavier and Fairlight werent for the "hobbyist or student" either, should they have actually only been $100 to buy? No, because they were built for professionals.



I think things have changed a lot since then.

I believe this is not the first time I hear that a certain product is geared more for professionals to justify its price, either by devs or users...

Anyway what I see these days are more and more professionals that are not making enough money to make a living out of it. Midphase already touched this issue slightly in another thread where he talks about composers being supported by their spouses or going back to living with their parents and doing other things on the side. There is a lot more competition these days, working in this business doesn't seem to be as lucrative as it was years ago. So what I am seeing is that now and in the future more and more professionals will fall into the category of "hobbyists and students" and the sense that they can't afford these toys. 
However I think it's also not a good idea to assume that just because someone is not a professional and therefor a hobbyist doesn't have money to spend. I know lawyers as well as doctors who make enough money to have a house with a pool and to spend whatever they want in guitars, drums, studio equipment as well as software for their own personal enjoyment. 
But okay so maybe these products are really geared for other kind of professionals, you know, really successful ones the likes of Thomas Newman, John Powell, etc, the ones we see on companies sites endorsing their products. But don't these guys already get these products for free? Even if that's not the case these folks have the fortune to be working in projects that they can use real musicians. In sum it's the mid-level professional and the hobbyist that has money to burn so to speak that are going to be the core consumer base of these products. The mid-level professional is of course the composer that is part of projects that don't have enough budget for real musicians and therefor need these tools more than the for rest. The more competition arises and the more composers and getting payed less so does the need for the software to be cheaper. 
I don't think any company prices their products based on if they are targeting for professionals or not but rather to cover the costs and on the estimate of how much copies they think it will sell.


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

@NYC Composer
. I am sure Troels and Colin wouldn't ask for your professional credentials to decide if they will allow you the privilege of buying a Adagio license ..... 
Whilst I do agree with you the synclavier and fairlight example was purposely exaggerated to try to illustrate my point... I am not sure if the Roland example is good for two reasons:
It was sold and distributed by Roland (unless we are not speaking about the same items) and Roland had already required you to spend $7,000 or however it was for a Roland S-770 sampler ( I think the library was before the S-760 was out) and I think the price may have been higher than $500.

rsp


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2012)

Troels and Colin have made a targeted marketing decision. Right or wrong, it is totally their right to do so as only they will bear the consequences. EW has done this as well with certain products and so do a lot of companies, including Apple with their high end prices on MacPros.

This idea that every product has to be all things to all people is incorrect IMHO.


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## Ed (May 6, 2012)

For once I agree with Jay :D

If Troels wants to bring the price down so more people will buy it Im sure he will. Im sure its all calculated. Do you have a product priced so low that you get lots of sales, vs a product that is priced higher and less people buy it? Perhaps it is more desirable to get the same money from less sales to make your products be seen as premium and exclusive? Bottom line is if it doesnt sell well enough he will have to lower the price like any other product someone is selling, things are only worth what the market is willing to pay after all.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:


> Troels and Colin have made a targeted marketing decision. Right or wrong, it is totally their right to do so as only they will bear the consequences. EW has done this as well with certain products and so do a lot of companies, including Apple with their high end prices on MacPros.
> 
> This idea that every product has to be all things to all people is incorrect IMHO.



In these difficult times, the idea that a company would purposefully limit its buying public is ludicrous, IMHO, and I don't think Troels meant that. Even though he repeated it.  

I think what he meant to say was that he and Colin are creating a very special product and pricing it commensurately.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> @NYC Composer
> . I am sure Troels and Colin wouldn't ask for your professional credentials to decide if they will allow you the privilege of buying a Adagio license .....
> Whilst I do agree with you the synclavier and fairlight example was purposely exaggerated to try to illustrate my point... I am not sure if the Roland example is good for two reasons:
> It was sold and distributed by Roland (unless we are not speaking about the same items) and Roland had already required you to spend $7,000 or however it was for a Roland S-770 sampler ( I think the library was before the S-760 was out) and I think the price may have been higher than $500.
> ...



And now it takes a $2500 computer. Same sort of thing. The price WAS $500, for me anyway.

Btw-I bought my S-770 for $3400 from the late lamented Manny's music in NYC, a true cracker barrel hangout that I miss. I remember the number very well, because it seemed like all the money in the world  Then there was the RAM upgrade to 16(!) meg-that was expensive but I don't remember the exact price.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Troels and Colin have made a targeted marketing decision. Right or wrong, it is totally their right to do so as only they will bear the consequences. EW has done this as well with certain products and so do a lot of companies, including Apple with their high end prices on MacPros.
> ...



I am sure. burt he is not saying he will only sell it to professionals, just that that is their main targeted group.

The same argument happened to an even greater degree when Broadway Big Band came out with its price tag. Guys like Lenny Pickett rushed to buy it while most others could not justify the cost. I don't think Fablesounds/Sonivox regret that decision as BBB did pretty well I am told in terms of cost vs profit.

Eventually however they did put out the more affordable Broadway Lites.

I just hate the whole McDonald's-ization in the name of egalitarianism that is now rampant. It is perverse.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:
> ...



Yep, I never bought BBB and never will. I maintain to this day that Fable Sounds/Sonivox would have done far better at a lower price point, but you're right, it's their product and their decision how to market it, same with 8Dio and EW and everyone else-but....ummm?? You find the fact that everyone can afford the same software as you perverse?? Disappointing, maybe, but perverse? That's funny! :wink: 

And btw, be glad some of them still buy it.

and btw btw-Lenny was doing pfg at the time. I guess being one of the most sought after sax players/arrangers in the world and being the leader of the SNL band for umpteen years might allow him a little extra financial leeway. He's always been a nice cat for all that.


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > @NYC Composer
> ...




ahh but my point was like Apple, Roland made money off of both hardware and content... and 8dio.com doesn't make money afaik from computer sales...

anyway.... yes the 'good old days' 
I did manage to go to Manny on its last week when I happen to be in NY...
W48th between Broadway and was it 6th avenue? use to be for me heaven on earth back in the days....when I got to play all the Jupiters and Moogs etc for hours.

rsp


ps: btw I accidentally hit the report button instead of the quote button when I was responding to this......wish the report button was moved....and wish I can unreport.....sorry about that.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

Yeah, Manny's was special. I still see Judd from Manny's occasionally-he moved to the Dark Side (Guitar Center NYC). It was a very democratic scene back in the day-cool place to hang, learn, and of course-buy.

48th-between 6th and 7th. Music Row once, now Sam Ash City.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:
> ...



No I guess I wasn't clear Larry. What I find perverse is the sense of entitlement that people have that EVERY product should be priced in a way they can afford it regardless of whether their success, financial situation, or work needs justify it.

BMW does not price its cars the way Kia does. It does not reflect badly on BMW that I cannot afford one then I cannot afford one or if I can, justify the expense.

As to whether "Fable Sounds/Sonivox would have done far better at a lower price point" while you are entitled to hold that opinion, since you have not looked at their books, your opinion is not based on knowledge but presumption. 

And you know how I feel about opinions that are not based on actual knowledge :lol:


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## JT (May 6, 2012)

When Troels mentions this library is for professionals, subliminally I'm getting the message that other libraries are not geared for professionals and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with this lib. Maybe I'm reading too much into his statements. Once it gets released this week, it'll be interesting to read actual user reviews. Maybe my opinion will change.

I remember in the early 80's when the Synclavier came out, I was seriously thinking about getting one. I had several conversations with the rep from NED, they were willing to fly me to their office, get me a room for the night, they were bending over backwards for my business. I ultimately decided not too go this route, so I didn't take them up on their offer, but nevertheless was very impressed by their customer support.

JT


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## Ed (May 6, 2012)

As soon as you price anything your market gets reduced. Some people arent willing to pay anything. I know people that would think Im crazy spending hundreds and hundreds of ££ on sample libraries. Cubase and Kontakt cost what they do, they've already priced themselves away from many people. Should they lower their prices? Its not as simple as saying 8dios prices are priced out of reach of many hobbyists and students and therefore should lower their prices. Clearly there is more to think about or all libraries would sell for $20 to maximum sales. Cubase costs what it does because its made for professionals, same with expensive editing and visual FX software. I don't find it bad if someone says the same thing about sample libraries.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

Yes, Jay-I know you're in the inside of every organization, and you've closely examined their books. What you cannot disprove is my assertion, because it never happened, so we will never know....and you know how I hate people casting aspersions on assertions they can neither prove nor disprove.


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Troels and Colin have made a targeted marketing decision. Right or wrong, it is totally their right to do so as only they will bear the consequences. EW has done this as well with certain products and so do a lot of companies, including Apple with their high end prices on MacPros.
> ...



I totally agree with this. It doesn't make sense.

I'm not buying this for a second, first the library is 599 bucks then they lower it to 499. And they have a pre-order sale price that will go on even after its release. Sounds just like your usual marketing.
And then someone wants to convince me that is for the elite and not masses? Really?
cmon...


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> Yes, Jay-I know you're in the inside of every organization, and you've closely examined their books. What you cannot disprove is my assertion, because it never happened, so we will never know....and you know how I hate people casting aspersions on assertions they can neither prove nor disprove.



Obviously I have not, so I would not presume to assume anything beyond what they may (or may not) have said to me personally, and even then, I cannot known to a certainty if what they are telling me is true.

Either way, it is as you said, their call, as they suffer the consequences, so speculation on the wisdom of a company's pricing decision is rather pointless unless one simply has too much time on his hands, isn't it?


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

JT @ Sun May 06 said:


> When Troels mentions this library is for professionals, subliminally I'm getting the message that other libraries are not geared for professionals and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with this lib. Maybe I'm reading too much into his statements. Once it gets released this week, it'll be interesting to read actual user reviews. Maybe my opinion will change.
> 
> .......
> 
> JT



I didn't see any other mention of 'for proessionals' by Troels except in a thread where pricing was brought up as a concern by one or maybe more than one poster.
I read his comments as a response to y it isn't cheaper.
rsp


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

Btw-just for the record, this thread has gone far afield, and there's a certain amount of apples and oranges here, so to clarify my own feelings- I don't think the price being asked for Adagio is outrageous in the least-especially if it is a stellar, groundbreaking fabulous sounding violin library as we've been told repeatedly that it is  . If I ultimately agree, I'll be happy to buy it at the advertised price. All this talk of BMWs and Synclaviers is not analogous.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, Jay-I know you're in the inside of every organization, and you've closely examined their books. What you cannot disprove is my assertion, because it never happened, so we will never know....and you know how I hate people casting aspersions on assertions they can neither prove nor disprove.
> ...



As is responding to this speculation in a forum? If that was an insult, it was a curious one, fellow time-wasting forum member.


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

In regards to BBB is was going to be released with a price of 1000bucks but then when it got pickep up by sonivox for distribution it as more than 2000 bucks (someone refresh my memory).

I don't think it's any sense of entitlement to complain about the price of a product. I think people complain about it particularly when they feel the quality doesn't match the price. But that's just my assumption.

How many products have had lite packages after being released because people here expressed they didn't justify buying a whole package?

Either you want it or not a lot of people's opinions that have been expressed here over the years have changed the marketing, price and the products themselves.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:
> ...



No insult or disrespect intended at all Larry, just a general observation.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

and yet it looked like one , Jay. I think I'll express whatever opinion I like, regardless of your opinion of the time wasting lack of necessity for it, 'k?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2012)

Niah @ Sun May 06 said:


> In regards to BBB is was going to be released with a price of 1000bucks but then when it got pickep up by sonivox for distribution it as more than 2000 bucks (someone refresh my memory).
> 
> I don't think it's any sense of entitlement to complain about the price of a product. I think people complain about it particularly when they feel the quality doesn't match the price. But that's just my assumption.
> 
> ...



I think many people here think EVERY product should be priced so that EVERY person can afford it. Relates to the piracy thread, I want it therefore I am entitled to it.

(sung to the melody of "Aquarius") :lol: 

This is the dawning of the Age of Entitlement, Age of Entitlement
Entitlement, Entitlement


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> and yet it looked like one , Jay. I think I'll express whatever opinion I like, regardless of your opinion of the time wasting lack of necessity for it, 'k?



You can, but then you have to be prepared for insensitive folks like me to respond with their opinion of your expressing your opinion 

OK, I'm done.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> I didn't see any other mention of 'for proessionals' by Troels except in a thread where pricing was brought up as a concern by one or maybe more than one poster.
> I read his comments as a response to y it isn't cheaper.
> rsp



read down the first page, Richard. You'll see a confirmation from Troels of the "professionals" remark.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > and yet it looked like one , Jay. I think I'll express whatever opinion I like, regardless of your opinion of the time wasting lack of necessity for it, 'k?
> ...



Okay, Jay-here's my opinion. You shouldn't be commenting pro or con on the pricing of a string library while you work for a competing organization. 
Even positive comments you make could be misconstrued as being divisive in certain ways. You should be miles away from this thread.

Good. Now we're being all open and honest and such with our opinions and the frank expression of them.


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sun May 06 said:
> ...



ok will do so. but note I said *other.*........ cause I saw one made yesterday when he was responding to concerns about the pricing then someone joked and used professional about four times in one sentence 
rsp

edit:

yes its the same one:



> Adagio is a professional deep-sampled string product series targeted/priced for professionals and we have no current plans for creating lite versions of it.


 and I didn't take it as snobbery nor was I offended by it.
rsp


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

my views on the whole pricing thing is that I don't think $399 is bad at all if it will be THE violin library, but once you buy one you will want to buy all four (unless you have a horribly experience with the first one) and like many I was hoping to have an idea of what will be the ultimate cost of that investment.
rsp


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> my views on the whole pricing thing is that I don't think $399 is bad at all if it will be THE violin library, but once you buy one you will want to buy all four (unless you have a horribly experience with the first one) and like many I was hoping to have an idea of what will be the ultimate cost of that investment.
> rsp



That makes sense.

What Troels said after the bit you quoted, after someone used "professional " 4 times , was-"But it's true  "


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

yes I saw that, with the smiley face too...I think the bottom line for 8dio was if you are a professional and earning a living from composing/performing etc and you rely on orchestral string samples to make that living $399-$499 really isn't that large of an investment....I don't think by this he means if you are a professional and business isn't so good, screw you...... I think it also means that if you don't make a living from needing orchestral string samples and you are hoping for a $99-$199 lite version, it isn't going to happen.
rsp


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

on another note... their latest tweet says it is being uploaded to the cloud servers... all 34,000 or so files and 24GB lossless ncw compression of it.
rsp


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## Resoded (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ 6th May 2012 said:


> my views on the whole pricing thing is that I don't think $399 is bad at all if it will be THE violin library, but once you buy one you will want to buy all four (unless you have a horribly experience with the first one) and like many I was hoping to have an idea of what will be the ultimate cost of that investment.
> rsp



Yeah. As I see it 24 gb of fresh and ground breaking samples for 399 isn't that much.


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 06 said:


> Niah @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > In regards to BBB is was going to be released with a price of 1000bucks but then when it got pickep up by sonivox for distribution it as more than 2000 bucks (someone refresh my memory).
> ...



The dawning of the Age of Entitlement? Is that the title of your next book?  

Seriously though this doesn't make sense to me at all. But lets just say I agree with your assumptions and all this is the result that there is this massive sense of entitlement among users. Who's to blame?
Since companies such as audiobro, tonehammer, BBB created lite packages upon users requests not to mention many other features such as downloadable options, etc, I guess by your logic we will have to blame the developers themselves who are giving in to this sense of entitlement, right?


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## Diffusor (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> my views on the whole pricing thing is that I don't think $399 is bad at all if it will be THE violin library, but once you buy one you will want to buy all four (unless you have a horribly experience with the first one) and like many I was hoping to have an idea of what will be the ultimate cost of that investment.
> rsp



I believe it was mentioned this is not "THE" violin library and is just Vol 1 for violins and there will be more.


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## noiseboyuk (May 6, 2012)

Niah @ Sun May 06 said:


> Since companies such as audiobro, tonehammer, BBB created lite packages upon users requests not to mention many other features such as downloadable options, etc, I guess by your logic we will have to blame the developers themselves who are giving in to this sense of entitlement, right?



Certainly with BBB and LASS, the lite versions came after the full versions were out for a while, in the case of Fable it was years til Broadway Lites came on the scene. Also 8dio do seem to be taking a stand against lite versions, they were adamant that Liberis wouldn't have a lite version (a shame as I think it would work well). If a lite version comes at all, I think it'll be some way off.


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Sun May 06 said:


> Niah @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Since companies such as audiobro, tonehammer, BBB created lite packages upon users requests not to mention many other features such as downloadable options, etc, I guess by your logic we will have to blame the developers themselves who are giving in to this sense of entitlement, right?
> ...



Yes I know, that was my point, the companies catered to people's requests and feedback. This notion that companies want target a specific group .. I just don't buy into that. Like any company they want to sell to has many people as possible to cover the costs of production and make more products. It's that simple.


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## organix (May 6, 2012)

I preorderd Adagio in January, because I couldn't resist of the 33% discount. 
But now they dropped the offical price from 599 down to 499 and this automatically reduces the pre-order discount. 

I feel utterly misinformed. They made me an offer that I can save 33% by doing a pre-order. They take my money and until I get the product they changed pricing and reduces the pr-order discount to 20%. And at first they told us, that the pre-order price of $399 will only valid before release. But now they changed the name from pre-order to introduction price and still the pricetag of $399 is valid. 

At last there is absolutely no advantage of pre-ordering this library. Is more an disadvantage, because you paid months before release. 

In my opinion that's no fair trading. :shock: 

I'm a webmaster and owner of a german community, smaller but in some cases similar to vi-control. Most of the users are very upset of about the business practice of 8Dio. I had been one of the few which has tried to defend 8Dio, but now with that pricing practice with Adagio I don't find any words to defend. :? 

Hopefully the library will be better as expected and let the people forget that confusing pricing tactics. :roll: 

Markus


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## noiseboyuk (May 6, 2012)

Niah - I agree.

Markus - I think a lot of people feel they had their fingers burnt here by the preorder thing. 8dio remain totally silent on the subject, and that's the worst thing imho. We all know delays happen, we understand that plans might change too. But looking after the people who have shown most faith in you seems common sense to me, but like anything different companies see things differently I guess. I've no doubt Adagio will kick all kinds of musical ass, but... I'm sitting out for now.


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

Niah @ Sun May 06 said:


> Yes I know, that was my point, the companies catered to people's requests and feedback. This notion that companies want target a specific group .. I just don't buy into that. Like any company they want to sell to has many people as possible to cover the costs of production and make more products. It's that simple.



Have you factored the cost of technical support in this 'simple' equation of yours?

I know some developers don't lower their prices because although they will get more volume, it will also increase their cost because more users will require technical support.
rsp


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> Niah @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I know, that was my point, the companies catered to people's requests and feedback. This notion that companies want target a specific group .. I just don't buy into that. Like any company they want to sell to has many people as possible to cover the costs of production and make more products. It's that simple.
> ...



I know that and I never talked about lowering prices did I?

Also I talked about production costs but really profit is there to cover ALL costs of any type of business.


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

then I am clearly not sure what your point is......was it for a lite version? was it for a lower price point or what was it?
rsp


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> then I am clearly not sure what your point is......was it for a lite version? was it for a lower price point or what was it?
> rsp



Then go back and read my posts because I'm not going to repeat myself.


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## zvenx (May 6, 2012)

thats ok, wasn't that important anyway. I am sure developers are pouring over your opinion right this minute and it will govern how most developers do business now.

rsp


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## KMuzzey (May 6, 2012)

Niah @ Sun May 06 said:


> I don't think it's any sense of entitlement to complain about the price of a product. I think people complain about it particularly when they feel the quality doesn't match the price. But that's just my assumption.
> 
> How many products have had lite packages after being released because people here expressed they didn't justify buying a whole package?



I strongly disagree: I don't think a person's pre-purchase complaint about price has anything to do with the quality of a product, I think it has to do with "I can't afford this and I wish it were cheaper." You can't judge the quality of a product that you haven't even tried yet.

Also, companies don't release Lite versions of their products because they feel the full version of their product isn't worth the purchase price: they release a Lite version so that everyone will have access to *some* parts of the product. A lite version simply means more sales, and some of those purchasers will eventually need & upgrade to the full version.

I think you are incorrectly assuming that a lite version is the direct result of a developer being unsatisfied with the quality of his product, and that a person's complaint about price is a direct comment about the purchaser's opinion of the quality of the product.

Book an 8-hour day at a recording studio: hire 1 violinist to record a couple cues for you for 4 hours, then take the remaining 4 hours to have the engineer mix and master what you've recorded. You'll rack up a $1200 bill in that 8 hours. Suddenly the idea of $399 for an entire violin section that you can have and keep and use forever and ever until the day you die seems like quite a bargain. 

Kerry


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

I knew it.

I guess I will just have to reiterate.

Personally and I'm perfectly fine with Adagio's price even more so now that it has been lowered.

However some people keep bringing it up that they find it too expensive, *not me, other people*. And that's just fine by me I have no problem with people's expressing their opinions.

In reaction to this Troels said, and I believe I have hear it before by other devs and users that Adagio is priced so by the fact that is geared towards professionals. And this is my point:...that I don't think so. 

If that is the truth could you explain me why did they lower the price? Or why they have a pre-order sale price?

If these products are mostly geared to mostly professionals could you explain to me why after it's release and after people's requests Audiobro came out with a lite version of LASS? Tonehammer with a lite version of Requiem and BBB as well...

So my point is that these companies make products, and the price they set is accordingly with what they think is necessary to cover the costs and how much they think it will sell. I never said how I think a dev should run their company.

So again don't misrepresent what I have said.


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Sun May 06 said:


> Niah @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it's any sense of entitlement to complain about the price of a product. I think people complain about it particularly when they feel the quality doesn't match the price. But that's just my assumption.
> ...



1 - I think you can judge the quality of a product before getting it in respect to the most important thing in a product which is...the sound. What you cannot do is judge the programming or how it responds to your method of working. I really don't get this "I can't afford this and I wish it was cheaper" attitude you are talking about. If a person says that then they don't really want it, they would probably would like to have it but it's not in their list of priorities. When I think a product is essential to my collection and I can't afford (which fortunately never happened) I simply work extra hours or stop wasting money on trivial things.

2 -I don't know why companies release lite versions.

3 - I never assumed anything.

4 - Even though I think 399 is a fair price for Adagio I don't think it's a bargain for the reason you stated quite simply because Adagio as good as it may be it will not replace a real violinist for me. And if I have the change which fortunately is often I go for the real violin. 
Having said I will not stop hunting for good virtual instruments because the better they are the more they inspiring to compose and great better mockups for the players.


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## Chriss Ons (May 6, 2012)

Niah @ Mon 07 May said:


> 1 - (...) I really don't get this "I can't afford this and I wish it was cheaper" attitude you are talking about (...)
> 
> 2 -I don't know why companies release lite versions.



There's little point in generalizing as it depends on the company policy, but as an example: 

The Symphobia bundle is a whopping $ 700 off now - that must really sting if you bought it a few months ago. You could buy a third, high end library for that money... Also, it used to be a fairly "exclusive" product, and now Project Sam has put out the condensed _Orchestral Essentials_ version as well, which makes a good percentage of the content of those earlier libraries available to an enormous amount of potential buyers. Clearly, they are catering to the "I can't afford this and I wish it was cheaper"-audience. Is that "fair" towards longtime users? Probably not, but it's a business reality and a logical decision on their part - when the market is saturated because the product has been out for some time and the dev wants to push sales, you can expect things like price revisions, lite versions and so on - because the cost is zero, and it generates extra sales. Nobody in their right mind would be doing that if it didn't pay off.


With Adagio it's a different story. It's a modular library, scheduled to be released in the course of this year. There's no point whatsoever in announcing/ creating Lite versions unless it's received badly and doesn't sell (which I seriously doubt) or some competitor comes up with something similar (I haven't heard anything which points in that direction, either) - which would force 8DIO to reconsider their current marketing/pricing strategy. IMO, another thing that puts it in a strong position is that while there are many great string libraries out there, Adagio is a _different_ take on how to do sampled strings - which is a concept that's apparently lost on a _lot_ of people, who insist on comparing apples and oranges or putting a "value" on a library they haven't even tried yet. (I don't mean anyone in particular, but it's clearly something that just keeps popping up in these _Adagio_-threads.)

We'll see over the next few days just how good it is, and whether or not it's "worth" $399,-/$499,-, but at the end of the day, depending on one's needs and budget, that is _still _going to be a personal choice - "Professional" or not.


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

zvenx @ Sun May 06 said:


> thats ok, wasn't that important anyway. I am sure developers are pouring over your opinion right this minute and it will govern how most developers do business now.
> 
> rsp



I didn't direct any opinion to any developer nor have I ever if memory serves correctly told a dev how to run their business. I mostly engaged in a conversation with Jay and disagreed with him about this notion of sense entitlement from users here.

However saying that people's opinions here have no weight in how devs run their business is simply ignorant. Audiobro created a lite version of their product due to users requests in here, and that's just one example out of many.


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## jleckie (May 6, 2012)

ok. lets all plead with adiot to make an UNPROFESSIONAL version of the string library...

~o)


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## Niah (May 6, 2012)

jleckie @ Mon May 07 said:


> ok. lets all plead with adiot to make an UNPROFESSIONAL version of the string library...
> 
> ~o)



hmm...



> Adiot: Portmanteau word combining "a**" and "idiot."



Please don't use insulting terms against users here or I will have to report you.


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## Diffusor (May 6, 2012)

Niah @ Sun May 06 said:


> jleckie @ Mon May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > ok. lets all plead with adiot to make an UNPROFESSIONAL version of the string library...
> ...



I thought it was a play on "8Dio".


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## Peter Alexander (May 6, 2012)

Guy Kawasaki om Steve Jobs and Pricing:


*8. “Value” is different from “price”*
Woe unto you if you decide everything based on price. Even more woe unto you if you compete solely on price. Price is not all that matters—what is important, at least to some people, is value. And value takes into account training, support, and the intrinsic joy of using the best tool that’s made. It’s pretty safe to say that no one buys Apple products because of their low price.


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## choc0thrax (May 6, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Mon May 07 said:


> Guy Kawasaki om Steve Jobs and Pricing:
> 
> 
> *8. “Value” is different from “price”*
> Woe unto you if you decide everything based on price. Even more woe unto you if you compete solely on price. Price is not all that matters—what is important, at least to some people, is value. And value takes into account training, support, and the intrinsic joy of using the best tool that’s made. It’s pretty safe to say that no one buys Apple products because of their low price.



Maybe because it's late or I just had a stroke and got brain damage but... my brain can't form an opinion on price without taking value into account. It's an automatic process which makes it impossible to decide everything based on price...

Okay, bed time. Hope I don't slip into a coma.


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## G.R. Baumann (May 7, 2012)

organix @ Sun May 06 said:


> I preorderd Adagio in January, because I couldn't resist of the 33% discount.
> But now they dropped the offical price from 599 down to 499 and this automatically reduces the pre-order discount.
> 
> I feel utterly misinformed. They made me an offer that I can save 33% by doing a pre-order. They take my money and until I get the product they changed pricing and reduces the pr-order discount to 20%. And at first they told us, that the pre-order price of $399 will only valid before release. But now they changed the name from pre-order to introduction price and still the pricetag of $399 is valid.



Wow... I was not aware about that, very valid points in my opinion.


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## Graham Keitch (May 7, 2012)

For me:

Pros: 

The inclusion of a 3 player essemble. Useful for divisi (I don't have LASS) and for passages requiring smaller forces. As far as divisi is concerned, this will only be useful for V1 and V2 - but that's a good portion of the string orchestra.

The inclusion of a solo violin. This will have to be top-notch but I need a second soloist to add to Spitfire Solo Strings to get a full quartet. Spitfire has mentioned the possibility of a second violin made up of material left over from the Solo String sessions but we've heard nothing further on this since release. 

Cons:

Most of us need a full string orchestra, including a completely separate V2 section. I know the other sections are planned but it will be sometime before one can fully benefit from Adagio.

Until then, the violins will only be used to supplement (in my case) CS. For this to work, they will need to blend perfectly. This is an unknown at this stage but let's just say the tone of CS is very special and I'm not likely to forfeit that for extra articulations or even more expressive playing styles.

Conclusion: At 399, I think this will get ordered in the next few days but the principle drivers for me will be the 3 player and soloist samples as these will help fill an immediate gap. I'll be listening out for feedback on these over the next few days.

Regards,

Graham


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## FriFlo (May 7, 2012)

Depending on further walkthroughs I might pre-order, but not before I see a major update of Requiem pro and Liberis that can compete with the Requiem light update ...


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## SPOTS (May 7, 2012)

I won't feel good about it either, would have I per-ordered. 
Release postponed by one more day (may 8th). At this point it doesn't make much difference anymore besides not looking good at meeting deadlines.

From Troels post, I get it clear this product is made for professionals. I just wonder what is the threshold of revenue beyond which one may be considered as a pro or not. 

For what I know professionals work on crazy deadlines that they have no choice but to meet and usually when they buy a tool to add to their arsenal it's to use it asap and for the quickest ROI possible.

So I guess a developer that focuses on the pro niche should consider such aspects in their marketing approach before stating their product is aimed at the elite.


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## paulcole (May 7, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Sun May 06 said:


> Guy Kawasaki om Steve Jobs and Pricing:
> 
> 
> *8. “Value” is different from “price”*
> Woe unto you if you decide everything based on price. Even more woe unto you if you compete solely on price. Price is not all that matters—what is important, at least to some people, is value. And value takes into account training, support, and the intrinsic joy of using the best tool that’s made. It’s pretty safe to say that no one buys Apple products because of their low price.



*9. "Need" is different to "Want"*

I really would like this new Adagio library but I don't really need it because I bought CS2 and will wait until I hear definite differences that I might need, or better still, start having a chocolate style craving for. In a lot of instances of buying decisions, I believe value/price buying is certainly an important component for a lot of people, but in my experience "want" usually takes the day on most things and stuff like value/price gets thought about after the event. Sadly.


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## bennis (May 7, 2012)

Sorry for this long rant in advance. The last time i'll do it on here. I just want to express my frustration altogether in one place now that this preorder craziness is nearly over.

Months ago (around mid march) I ask on 8dio facebook where Adagio was as they took my money for a while and i had heard nothing. I notice on the site it suddenly said 'release May' (I was under impression it was Feb) and so i go and delete my comment and instead I ask "Why did you not tell anyone that the date changed?". I receive many 'NEW PRODUCT SOON' emails from 8dio about other things but nothing to tell me about Adagio changing. They took my money and then say nothing for 3 months and if i hadnt looked at their site or sign up here i wouldn't know it had change.

So i post and ask and my question is deleted. I post again and my questions deleted again, so this time Im obviously a bit frustrated and so i stop (thats about the time i start watching this forum more). More and more products by 8dio released and then they start talking about cellos and i had enough so i posted again asking to explain how come the violins i paid for months ago that were delayed by months arent here and why theyre making and hyping cellos and many other libs, what the policy on refund is (this was back in April) and whether preorder customers will get told sorry or any kind of compensation. My comments deleted again. I ask again. Deleted again and now this time im banned from their facebook. I decide ive had enough and i post here on forums and finally 8dio responds, doesnt address most of my questions.

I think 'okay well may 1st is not far i will just shutup and wait and hopefully it worth the wait' and it gets close to the date and now because im here i get to keep up to date. Changes AGAIN to may 7th and AGAIN i had no email about this (but still plenty emails about new products) and if i hadnt read this forum or checked their website i wouldnt know. pissed off again and go to check if i am still banned from facebook and then i notice i am not the only one they are deleting comments of (i posted screenshot in the other thread of this). it appears anyone who posts something they see negative or embarassing instead of DEALING WITH IT like online companies should, they brush it under the rug. I do not agree with other posts on here that they are allowed to hide their negative comments. they provide a service or product and it is fair to speak to them of negative experience and expect a resolution. they are an online company and its the same as going into a store and talking in front of other customers about negative experience. companies have to deal with it and its how they deal with it that shows they are true. If they reply to them they can sort it out but when they delete or hide them it shows they have no reply or arent wanting to make the customer happy and address negative experience. This is not good customer practice and it has lost them a customer of me.

I think this enough but things are still going on. release date has changed again to 'between 8th may and 10th' because of 'server uploads' (it 2012?? why do we have big cloud services if not to use them??) and also the price has changed now. i bought back then because as with other people i thought i would be saving 33% with a company i liked. however, now i have had my money taken months ago and not been able to use it, and now the benefit of preorder price discount is nowhere near so much. not only that but now its no longer preorder price. with preorder i go in expecting a bit of risk that i wont like the product but based on company rep you buy and you save money other people don't. so not only now do i save less money but now its the 'intro price' not preorder price and people can listen to all the demos released AFTER THE RELEASE DATE and also read feedback from customers and decide.

This has been the worst experience for me for preorder and that is why i will not be preordering anymore. it has ruined my experience and unfortunately made me wonder about preordering with other sample companies. I think a company that throw around the word 'for professional' should act like a professional company.


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## MaestroRage (May 7, 2012)

+1 bennis. I've been feeling very frustrated with 8dio and I wasn't able to word it as well. They have lost me as a customer also.


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## jamwerks (May 7, 2012)

Yeah this Adagio launch has probably killed and buried the whole concept of pre-order. Doubt if anybody will ever try it (of fall for it) again.


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## Dan Mott (May 7, 2012)

Wow, Bennis. I'm very sorry that this happend to you.

I hate when companies hide anything that is even slightly negative about thier products or service. Just shows that, or gives more and more hints that the company is all about the money and not what they can do for their customers to make them happy.

What I've learned from the past is that not everything can be fixed and not every customer will be happy with their product, but ignoring issues all together is just bullshit. I'd rather a developer or memeber of the company email me and tell me directly that the issue cannot be fixed, than just delete it from their site and ignore it. I'd atleast feel so much better that someone has responded to my enquiry aswell.

Easy fix for me = I'll just continue respecting the companies that pay attention to the quality they are putting out and the reponse from the customers.

PS - To be brutally honest..... I think one is completey nuts if they're going to fork out a whopping 399 dollars for just violins, not matter how good it is. Rip off.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2012)

Speculating about a company's pricing policy is for people who have too much time on their hands. Trust me on this-it comes from a very reputable source. :wink:


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## Dan Mott (May 7, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue May 08 said:


> Speculating about a company's pricing policy is for people who have too much time on their hands. Trust me on this-it comes from a very reputable source. :wink:



Anyone who assumes people have too much time on their hands and then posts on a thread saying that people have too much time on their hands..... HAVE too much time on their hands. :D :D :D :D :D :D o=?


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Mon May 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Speculating about a company's pricing policy is for people who have too much time on their hands. Trust me on this-it comes from a very reputable source. :wink:
> ...



So true!


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## Patrick_Gill (May 7, 2012)

I've just pre-ordered!. Looking forward to making a great use of it.


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## edat (May 7, 2012)

bennis @ Mon May 07 said:


> I think a company that throw around the word 'for professional' should act like a professional company.


+1
I myself am quite happy to grab them strings and go back to my hobbyland. 
But make no mistake, I need the strings!


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## Chriss Ons (May 7, 2012)

Ah... get over yourselves, will you? 

8DIO will obviously learn something from all this, and act accordingly - in the same way you and I learn from our mistakes. That is, if you're willing to admit you make any. 

And it doesn't matter how hard you yell gimme gimme gimme gimme and pout like a four year old - if it's not ready, it's not ready. Period. 
If you're all about instant gratification and have no patience, or should have spent the money on something else, then _don't pre-order something_ - that's like shooting yourself in the foot. Then coming on here to whine and mope about it makes you look kinda, I don't know - fill that last part in for yourselves because I'm not going to say something I'll regret later.



Dan-Jay @ Mon 07 May said:


> Just shows that, or gives more and more hints that the company is all about the money and not what they can do for their customers to make them happy.




I have the impression that 8DIO _is_ founded on love, more than anything. It's tough love, sometimes - but it _is_ love. 


(cue in Troels with eye patch)

_Yup - that's lurrrve, me hearties. That warm and fuzzy thing, right there. No, there. On your credit card bill. Pay attention._


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## MaestroRage (May 7, 2012)

Josquin that's a pretty small way to look at what happened.

Yes we are allowed to make mistakes, we are all human after all. But what 8Dio did up to this point in not professional. 

1. Very small amount of awareness to how events were unfolding, to the point others had to go looking to find out.
2. Silencing displeased customers rather then dealing with them appropriately
3. Shifting things around without once offering a refund policy to those who were unhappy with the new carved paths.

A lot of us could have used that 400 for something else rather then sit in our chairs for an extra 2-3 months. It makes me feel like they were running out of money, but knew they had to keep working on the project and so decided hey, lets do a pre-order thing now and that should tide us over until we're actually ready to release.

Why else would there be no refund system in place?

I don't know, i'm probably wrong, but this is not a case of GIMME GIMME, I'M AN ENTITLED CHILD. It's a case of 8Dio screwing up, again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and making early adapters pay for it each time.


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## Dan Mott (May 7, 2012)

Josquin @ Tue May 08 said:


> Ah... get over yourselves, will you?
> 
> 8DIO will obviously learn something from all this, and act accordingly - in the same way you and I learn from our mistakes. That is, if you're willing to admit you make any.
> 
> ...



If this is your comments about recent comments, then I don't know what you are talking about. We were making a point about Bennis's experiences which sounded quite bad. Don't think there's anything wrong about complaining about that.


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## Folmann (May 7, 2012)

Gentlemen,

We are listening and learning - and we understand it may be frustrating to a few of you. But we retain the right to change pricing at any time, which is clearly stated on the website. The fact remains that we have had composers suggest we go private with the collection and could sell this volume at a nice five digit amount to exclusive individuals, but that was not our ambition.

We are incredibly proud of this release and thankfully the overall response is better then we could ever have wished for. We are very comfortable with the pricing and the only reason we chopped a little off the full-price is primarily based on lots of requests from non-pros. We are already deeply into the production of cellos, violas and basses, which will all come out this year - and we have sessions lined up for volume 2 of all the libraries too.

I am totally aware that the pre-order period has been bumpy, but that is what happens when you push the bar and little did we know when we went into the land of round robin legato, legato loure and legato dynamic bowings - and the ability to blend them all together via legato systems.

But again I am fully aware of the frustration related to the release and of course it is something we will address in the future.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2012)

I am incredulous at the idea that anyone would plunk down a minimum $40,000 for a sampled string collection, unless you're taking about five figures for all four sections, in which case I'm sure there are a handful would be interested. In that case, though, I'd be somewhat incredulous that many people would hand you $10,000 or more for an unfinished, unheard product, or that ultimately you wouldn't do better selling many more copies at a lower price point.

On the other hand, at those price points, you could call the product "for professionals" and no one would blink an eye :wink: 

I think the product sounds great so far and I think you'll do very well with it-but I cannot for the life of me understand why you don't just refund Bennis' money and have done with it.


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## jamwerks (May 7, 2012)

I'm as excited about this release as a lot of folks here. Hope that the big success translates into 8dio being able to hire extra programmers, so as to bring out the rest of the library as quickly as possible.

I also hope that 8dio will ask for user input as to what we'd like to have included in the vol. II moldules.


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## José Herring (May 7, 2012)

Take the time to get it as best as it can be. So far its sounding really great.

I also admire the fact that you're tackling one section at a time. Getting it right, then moving on to the next section. Shows a lot of integrity.

As far as price. If one needs it, one gets it regardless. As has been mentioned. Back in the day. I paid $10,000 for 3 S-760's and libraries. I laugh when people start complaining too hard about $400 bucks.


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## noiseboyuk (May 7, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 07 said:


> I am incredulous at the idea that anyone would plunk down a minimum $40,000 for a sampled string collection, unless you're taking about five figures for all four sections, in which case I'm sure there are a handful would be interested. In that case, though, I'd be somewhat incredulous that many people would hand you $10,000 or more for an unfinished, unheard product, or that ultimately you wouldn't do better selling many more copies at a lower price point.
> 
> On the other hand, at those price points, you could call the product "for professionals" and no one would blink an eye :wink:
> 
> I think the product sounds great so far and I think you'll do very well with it-but I cannot for the life of me understand why you don't just refund Bennis' money and have done with it.



Actually I wouldn't be a bit surprised - Spitfire Bespoke works on these kinds of numbers very successfully, I believe (and if I'm not mistaken, in that case the license doesn't cover you using it in a final mix!) If you are an A lister, all you care about it it being good and easy to work with, and if it is exclusive so much the better.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I am incredulous at the idea that anyone would plunk down a minimum $40,000 for a sampled string collection, unless you're taking about five figures for all four sections, in which case I'm sure there are a handful would be interested. In that case, though, I'd be somewhat incredulous that many people would hand you $10,000 or more for an unfinished, unheard product, or that ultimately you wouldn't do better selling many more copies at a lower price point.
> ...



I'm aware of the Bespoke series-it's the only example I know of-and I doubt the originators spent 40k apiece on strings alone.


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## koolkeys (May 7, 2012)

Following this thread, and being excited about Adagio personally as many others are(but not able to afford to purchase right now), I find it unfortunate that things have had to go so negatively.

I think it's reasonable to be frustrated, but it's like some people seem to believe that Troels and 8Dio are intentionally dissing their loyal customers. Really? I mean, they will make mistakes as anyone can, but it's not like they are sitting there thinking of how they can screw somebody over, right?

I hope that Adagio is better than everyone hopes it is, because if it is, I think people will forget about the price changes and just have fun using it.

Of course, if it sucks(doubtful), we'll never hear the end, I'm sure. But I personally give companies at least some benefit of the doubt, especially smaller companies.

Maybe it's just me. And no, I haven't forked over any cash yet(again, not good timing here), so I realize that some will probably think I have no business saying anything. But it's just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.

Peace.

Brent


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## noiseboyuk (May 7, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 07 said:


> I'm aware of the Bespoke series-it's the only example I know of-and I doubt the originators spent 40k apiece on strings alone.



You're right, I think it is higher... my guess is something between $20-30k for all strings, but I might well be misinformed (not for the first time..)

Brent, I think the price change is a pretty small part of the grievance here.


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## koolkeys (May 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 07 said:


> Brent, I think the price change is a pretty small part of the grievance here.


Well, of course. I know the release dates have changed and other things, but I still think it's not THAT uncommon and I've seen people here and elsewhere say they won't buy anything from 8Dio again because of these things. 

I just find that a bit extreme. Obviously, it's a person's right to do so. I just don't follow that logic. And I do still tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the developer as I could never begin to understand how much work goes into something like this. I'm sure that even Troels and Collin had no idea how things would go in most cases. 

Time will tell, but I personally just think that some people have gone a little over the top. I expect that not all will agree with me, which is perfectly cool.

Brent


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## Synesthesia (May 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm aware of the Bespoke series-it's the only example I know of-and I doubt the originators spent 40k apiece on strings alone.
> ...



Sorry for the OT but just to correct, our Symphonic Strings bespoke lib was 3.5k GBP, just over 5000 USD, and you can use it in masters, its just that we invited people to join who regularly used musicians in their scores, so we try to minimise the loss of work resulting from the use of the lib!

Anyway - back on topic. Sorry for the diversion!


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## noiseboyuk (May 7, 2012)

Synesthesia @ Mon May 07 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Mon May 07 said:
> ...



Happily corrected - blimey MUCH less than I thought... was this solo, small and large strings combined? (Adagio containing all three of course).

Brent - it's pretty obvious to me that the cause of the upset is not the change of dates per se or the price drop, but the way customers were handled. If the reports here are correct, they weren't told about any changes, and were given no opportunity to cancel or change their order. Further, when they raised questions on Facebook, their comments were deleted. That combination is a pretty surefire way to create discontent, and I trust these are the lessons that have been learned.


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## EwigWanderer (May 7, 2012)

Adagio sounds great! I was sure that I wouldn't buy it, but now I'm not sure at all.

I have LASS 2 and LASS LS, but...Adagio seems to be ready out of the box. Violins for now, but meaning that I could just pick up a patch and start playing... too bad that I can't sell LASS..

Tough decision....


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 07 said:


> Sorry for the OT but just to correct, our Symphonic Strings bespoke lib was 3.5k GBP, just over 5000 USD, and you can use it in masters, its just that we invited people to join who regularly used musicians in their scores, so we try to minimise the loss of work resulting from the use of the lib!
> 
> Anyway - back on topic. Sorry for the diversion!



Happily corrected - blimey MUCH less than I thought... was this solo, small and large strings combined? (Adagio containing all three of course).
[/quote]

I simply do not BELIEVE in saying I told you so, but, ummm...

:wink:


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## germancomponist (May 7, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon May 07 said:


> ... As far as price. If one needs it, one gets it regardless. As has been mentioned. Back in the day. I paid $10,000 for 3 S-760's and libraries. I laugh when people start complaining too hard about $400 bucks.



+1

And: So far as I remember Troels said that they had found another cool thing to get better results (or had a new idea), and this thing needed its time. I think they did it right!

The library sounds very great and I am sure I will get it.


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## noiseboyuk (May 7, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 07 said:


> I simply do not BELIEVE in saying I told you so, but, ummm...
> 
> :wink:



Go on! It's a fair cop. but is worth pointing out Adagio is solo, chamber and symphonic in 1, so that does need to be factored in. x3 =$15k so still less than what I thought though - I can't find the bespoke stuff on their website any more.[/offtopic]


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## midphase (May 7, 2012)

I really don't get discussions like these. If you have the money to spare or if a project that you're working on needs this particular library (and it will justify the expenditure) then get it regardless of pre-order discount or not.

On the other hand if you're debating whether you should try to pay off your student loan/rent/baby diapers or put in your pre-order for this (or any other sample library) then you're an idiot.


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## koolkeys (May 7, 2012)

midphase @ Mon May 07 said:


> On the other hand if you're debating whether you should try to pay off your student loan/rent/baby diapers or put in your pre-order for this (or any other sample library) then you're an idiot.


Speak for yourself. My baby doesn't need diapers THAT bad. 

Brent _-)


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## jamwerks (May 7, 2012)

koolkeys @ Mon May 07 said:


> Speak for yourself. My baby doesn't need diapers THAT bad.



Now there's a passionate musician for you !! :mrgreen:


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## Synesthesia (May 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I simply do not BELIEVE in saying I told you so, but, ummm...
> ...



No - Chamber Strings was 2.5k. Solo Strings was only the commercial library.

We just closed membership to the bespoke range. It was only ever non profit - we didn't make any money out of that range, it was a fun project to try and make the most incredible sounding library, funded production from the sale of quite expensive licenses to a small number of composers. We completed production, and sold the last few spaces, so its closed now.

Back on topic!


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## lee (May 7, 2012)

koolkeys @ Mon May 07 said:


> midphase @ Mon May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand if you're debating whether you should try to pay off your student loan/rent/baby diapers or put in your pre-order for this (or any other sample library) then you're an idiot.
> ...



Start using cloth diapers. You'll save an average of $30-$50 a month over the cost of disposables, and after one year $360-$600! You can afford to buy Adagio..


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## Folmann (May 7, 2012)

Adagio has been released – download links starting to go out now in the order purchased. We expect all orders to be processed by tomorrow.


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## Peter Alexander (May 7, 2012)

Folmann @ Mon May 07 said:


> Adagio has been released – download links starting to go out now in the order purchased. We expect all orders to be processed by tomorrow.



Congratulations! There's joy in finishing!


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## jamwerks (May 7, 2012)

Folmann @ Mon May 07 said:


> Adagio has been released



=o _-) =o _-) =o _-) =o _-)


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## koolkeys (May 7, 2012)

Folmann @ Mon May 07 said:


> Adagio has been released – download links starting to go out now in the order purchased. We expect all orders to be processed by tomorrow.


Time to break the news to the wife about the diaper situation...


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## mpalenik (May 7, 2012)

Folmann @ Mon May 07 said:


> Adagio has been released – download links starting to go out now in the order purchased. We expect all orders to be processed by tomorrow.



Awesome news!


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## Chriss Ons (May 7, 2012)

Folmann @ Mon 07 May said:


> Adagio has been released (...)



Congratulations! I can't wait to try it. 



Folmann @ Mon 07 May said:


> (...) We are already deeply into the production of cellos, violas and basses, which will all come out this year - and we have sessions lined up for volume 2 of all the libraries too..



That's great news. You guys really went the extra mile with this project, and I honestly hope that gradually more people will start to see it _in the context which you intended_.


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## maraskandi (May 7, 2012)

Well, I am really looking forward to the Adagio baby being born... My musical diapers await its explosive potential with great relish. May the music commence with renewed life and vigour... and may all of us ultimately lead happy lives, despite hiccups, burps and sleepless nights. 

And let there not be a dry seat in the house, if you'll pardon my Scandinavian humour.


http://youtu.be/46Nyfo5CJPE

x


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## mpalenik (May 7, 2012)

My link arrived an hour ago. I'm cursing myself for having gone out to dinner. Downloading now!


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## Maestro77 (May 7, 2012)

I echo a few sentiments in this thread. I, too, made a few comments on 8Dio's Facebook posts that weren't even negative. They were simply slightly off topic and complimentary of other 8Dio products. I was sent a private message asking me not to do so anymore and my comments were deleted. Very interesting to read that others have also experienced this treatment! Forums and social networks are public arenas and you have to take all kinds of feedback in stride. You can't cry about paying customers' justified frustration and then cover up all negativity by deleting comments. As evidenced by this thread, others will hear of it and you will lose business. Although 8Dio has some great-sounding products (I own 6) I don't plan to purchase from them anymore.

The whole pre-order idea is cheap, in my opinion. What is the purpose? Was the money needed in order to complete the product? If so, clearly they didn't get enough to meet the original release date. Finish the product, release it, then take orders - in that order. A classy move at this point would be to offer the pre-order folks (and no, I'm not one of them) some type of credit in return for their patience and hope for the best with the next release. I hope they do, I'd really love to change my mind about them!


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## noiseboyuk (May 7, 2012)

Maestro77 @ Tue May 08 said:


> A classy move at this point would be to offer the pre-order folks (and no, I'm not one of them) some type of credit in return for their patience and hope for the best with the next release.



I suggested exactly this when the date was first moved without customers being informed, and the dissatisfaction among customers was spreading. My idea wasn't, um, met with enthusiasm.

I guess the plan for 8dio is that it really IS like childbirth. At the time every sane woman says "never again" - until their bundle of joy is born, and all the pain is forgotten.


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## Waywyn (May 8, 2012)

You know what really sucks?

There is this revolutionary library developer who is and was always nice with prices, nice with interaction on all the social media, nice with customer support and everything, open for feedback and all that ...

... and as soon as there is a lib which is out of your financial reaches, some of you totally twist and suddenly 8Dio is the bad support guy, suddenly everything sucks ... and if I get brandmarked as the typical aggressive rantbashhead, I don't care anymore, but the only thing which sucks here is some of your guys attitude!

What I see here is the typical Appstore 79 Cent attitude! What's happening here is whining on the very cheapest and lowest niveau and I actually can NOT believe this!

There were times when an orchestral library was around 3000 - 10000 USD, now there is a library which sounds absolutely amazing, got some revolutionary features and is just a fraction of that ... and some of you go totally nuts?! What is wrong with you?

I almost have the feeling that if there would be some string library around for 5 bucks, offering some scripts and a decent sound, this would be TEH MOST AWESOME STRING LIBRARY IN TEH WHOOOL WOAARLD!!!11 ...

You know what? Shame on you!

I don't wanna sound like I got money to throw around, which is definitely NOT the case, BUT ... a lot of people just look at the price and go nuts, but if you are real PRO, you see it as an investment for your PRO company ... and if you are a PRO, you should be able to live from your music bringing you back this investion in no time ... 

... I am not the guy who wants to command and tell people what to do but this time I will ... because it is the way I live:

If I can't afford something, FUCKIN GET OVER IT!


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## Dan Mott (May 8, 2012)

Wow. So people are just ignoring Bennis's experience? I'd be frustrated too if I were him and instead people are bashing the guys who think it's too expensive?
Kind of what annoyes me about a forum. 

People can express any opinion they want and if it's negative, some just can't stand it. I love looking at all opinions, otherwise this forum would be full of fanboy bitches and comments that would get deleted just like over at soundsonline. Would be a boring place. So i don't see why some guys are getting so angry. I for one am not getting this because I already have great strings, aswell as IMO, I do not think this library is value for money. It's 399 for violins lol. violins....... Regardless of what amount you older guys paid back in the day. I paid 1600 for HS and now its like 600 bucks and I'm not crying because that library IMO was value for my money.


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## FredrikJonasson (May 8, 2012)

Waywyn @ Tue May 08 said:


> You know what really sucks?
> 
> There is this revolutionary library developer who is and was always nice with prices, nice with interaction on all the social media, nice with customer support and everything, open for feedback and all that ...



Obviously, you don't have the same experience of this company as some others. It's not about the price.


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## Vision (May 8, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Tue May 08 said:


> IMO, I do not think this library is value for money. It's 399 for violins lol. violins....... Regardless of what amount you older guys paid back in the day. I paid 1600 for HS and now its like 600 bucks and I'm not crying because that library IMO was value for my money.



To have an opinion is all fine and dandy. However, I would be highly insulted if someone called my blood sweat and tears project "just strings". Personally, I think these are the best strings on the market at the moment. So they are not "just strings" to me. 

I'm not too thrilled with the prospect of buying another Rig just to use Hollywood Strings. So the value of having HS is not there to me. I'm not a big fan of Play either, not to mention it took what.. two years(?) for them to get it together? 

That being said. The price, of Adagio is worth it to me, even if I couldn't afford it atm. Because the sound is _premium_. The wait didn't bother me, because I knew I was investing in a premium product. 

But, if Adagio sounds like "just strings" to you, hey that's cool. I wouldn't buy them either.


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## Waywyn (May 8, 2012)

FredrikJonasson @ Tue May 08 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > You know what really sucks?
> ...



You know, there is a difference if it happens once or almost every time!
Don't get me wrong. When it comes to especially online support we live in a very sensible world. Everything might work out okay for like 19 purchases and then something happens on the 20th ... and suddenly the dev doesn't treat its customers right and in these situations the "anonymous web" can be a bitch!

I know shit happens and in some situations it gets kinda uncomfortable for either side ... but on the other side, look, if I got a problem with a dev or a company I don't post 20 Facebook posts and get pissed if they get deleted one by one. To be honest yes, deleting sucks ... but at first hand I try to get personal contact someone and get something sorted out! Even though I often appear as furious in forums I am like the most peaceful being on this planet ... and stuff like this better gets solved in an appropriate manner ... because you never know!

It might be just me, but I would never write critical or any question which could put the dev "to the wall" on a public place. Instead of writing 400 Facebook posts, I prefer to get it done on a personal level and CALL ... if THEN the dev hangs up the phone for like many times or would tell me to: leave me the fuck alone, THEN I would make use and let the public know what was going on ... 

... please, don't get me wrong again, ... I remember this kinda back then from the World of Warcraft support forum. "I wrote 100 forums posts and then 200 emails and they never replied!" ... well, then I ask, why not just write one mail or one post and then call!?


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## sin(x) (May 8, 2012)

Alex, I don't think pricing policy is the main issue here. For me, part of the backlash becomes understandable when I read stuff like this:



> The fact remains that we have had composers suggest we go private with the collection and could sell this volume at a nice five digit amount to exclusive individuals, but that was not our ambition.



As a response to complaints about a less than transparent way of handling a pre-sale period, I find this more than a little condescending. I can't help but read it as a thinly veiled way of saying “you spoiled brats can be damn grateful if we sell you anything at all”. And for me, that's a kick in the shin regardless of a developer's pricing policy.

For the record, I'm just as enthralled with Adagio as anyone here, and of course I'll defend a developer's right to fix prices entirely at his own discretion anytime. I'm just getting a bit of a big-headed vibe from the way 8dio communicates with its (present and future) client base around these parts, and that makes it hard for me to jump on board enthusiastically. When this kind of attitude carries from PR into things like support and update policy, we're right back in the “all the Hollywood bigwigs are drooling over our products, you guys are full of it” days.

Whether you're developing a $0.99 iOS toy or a $10,000 orchestral behemoth, meeting your customers at eye level always goes a long way.


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## Vision (May 8, 2012)

Sin, I assume that quote was more in response to the questioning of Adagio's price. 

Anyway.. I think alex is pi$$ed off, because 8dio is being made out to be some sort of evil conglomerate of elite sample developers. Which of course they aren't. I've purchased products from the tonehammer days, and have no complaints about their customer service. 

I don't personally know Troels or Colin.. but I get the impression that this strings project was a personal "labor of love" project, more than a "let's make a killing $$$$ on our strings" project.


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## dedersen (May 8, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Tue May 08 said:


> I for one am not getting this because I already have great strings, aswell as IMO, I do not think this library is value for money. It's 399 for violins lol. violins....... Regardless of what amount you older guys paid back in the day. I paid 1600 for HS and now its like 600 bucks and I'm not crying because that library IMO was value for my money.


Hm, strange logic at work here. 1600 for HS is okay, but 399 for Adagio is not?Divided per section, those 1600 become 320,- per section for HS, and that's including Violins II as a separate package. Considering that violins tend to get treated more thoroughly than, say, Basses, I am not sure I follow your logic about HS being "value for my money" while Adagio per your definition isn't. Especially considering that a (great-sounding!) solo violin is also included, as well as the fact that Adagio seems to offer a whole new level of deep sampling of violins.

I'm still on the fence about Adagio. Sounds absolutely killer, but I have so many string options alreadt (LASS, CS 2, Albion stuff) that I am not sure I can justify the purchase. It is most definitely NOT because the price is too steep though. If anything, the pre-order price seems almost too good to pass by.


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## flashman (May 8, 2012)

You take pre-order money to ease cash flow knowing that the delivery date is probably a best guess. The date inevitably slips and you get a lot of flack. So you end up trading cash-flow for good will. This is exactly what East West did with the same kind of consequences. 8dio could have handled it a lot better though in terms of communication and have probably paid a heavier price than necessary in terms of lost good.

Anyway my Adagio is now downloading and I am preparing to be a very happy camper.


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## Waywyn (May 8, 2012)

sin(x) @ Tue May 08 said:


> Whether you're developing a $0.99 iOS toy or a $10,000 orchestral behemoth, meeting your customers at eye level always goes a long way.



... probably we cross posted, not sure.
But this is what I was trying to say in my last post. There is some issue with like two persons on one product and suddenly the company is being put on the sceptical stage ...

I usually don't like to point my finger on someone directly, but my first post was written because of stuff reading here like: One must be completely nuts to spend 400 bucks on a violin libs and stuff like ripp off. This is plan bullshit and a real Pro wouldn't even call someone nuts when he would buy a violins lib for 4000 bucks ...

I mean there are people on this plattform who sampled their own private stuff and invested much much more. I know this is different from "just" buying someone, but my point should be clear


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## jlb (May 8, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Sun May 06 said:


> Niah @ Sun May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it's any sense of entitlement to complain about the price of a product. I think people complain about it particularly when they feel the quality doesn't match the price. But that's just my assumption.
> ...



You are ABSOLUTELY right here Kerry. $399 is not a rip off at all. The price is fine Troels. If it turns out to be as good as I think it might be. Appreciate the extended pre order period.

Jlb


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## Dan Mott (May 8, 2012)

Ok. You know what?

Not sucking up or anything, but this is bugging me now. I want to apolgies for what I said about this product being a rip off. I simply came in here and stated my opinion about what value I'd get out of this library, considering I already have a string library. What I said was a complete waste of time and I'm actually annoyed that I posted it.

Though my simpathy will still stand for Bennis.

I also should really stop posting and just read.  I mean it.

Thanks. Not looking for kind comments about what I just said, just you all to know it because I cringe about what I said.

Peace.


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## organix (May 8, 2012)

The only thing that annoys me a little is, that they offered a pre-order period with a 33% discount and later they changed pricetags and made an introduction with the same price advantage. 

So I ask by myself for now, what was the reason to spend money for pre-order? 
I pre-ordered because 8Dio offered me some interesting conditions. But they changed the conditions lately and so they took my reason for pre-ordering. 

And I got no mail, no direct communication, not a little sorry, nothing. And that's what really annoys me. This is not a good kind way of customers relationship. 

Markus


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## koolkeys (May 8, 2012)

organix @ Tue May 08 said:


> The only thing that annoys me a little is, that they offered a pre-order period with a 33% discount and later they changed pricetags and made an introduction with the same price advantage.
> 
> So I ask by myself for now, what was the reason to spend money for pre-order?
> I pre-ordered because 8Dio offered me some interesting conditions. But they changed the conditions lately and so they took my reason for pre-ordering.
> ...


I think some people are getting caught up on the percentage as if it was a guarantee. But really, it was just a representation of how much you were getting by paying a certain price.

It's not as if they changed the purchase price that you paid, right? I mean, anyone who ordered probably did so because they thought $400 was worth it for what you were getting. Did that change somehow? You still got the EXACT same value. The only thing that changed is that others who did not pre-order get a better value than before, but still LESS value than what you paid.

I don't know how the percentage would be a problem for anyone as that was obviously just representative of the difference in prices at the time, not a guarantee of any sort.

Brent


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## Christian Marcussen (May 8, 2012)

koolkeys @ Tue May 08 said:


> organix @ Tue May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing that annoys me a little is, that they offered a pre-order period with a 33% discount and later they changed pricetags and made an introduction with the same price advantage.
> ...



You don't think the non-pre order price factors in when people pre-order? It should, and it does. I ALMOST pre-ordered because of the difference in price. I knew I would never buy it at $599 - at $499 I might (so I think its a smart move to lower it). But had I run out to pre-order it I would have done so under the false impression that I was saving a lot. So I think your reasoning is slightly off the mark.


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## koolkeys (May 8, 2012)

Christian Marcussen @ Tue May 08 said:


> koolkeys @ Tue May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > organix @ Tue May 08 said:
> ...


Well, it's a matter of opinion really. Sure the non-preorder price may be a factor in determining if you should wait or not. However, my point was mainly just looking at the glass half full, so to speak. If you purchased at the preorder price, your value didn't change. You STILL got the same value for the same price, even if the full price was lowered, right?

Don't get me wrong, I do understand your view on this. I've had the same thing happen in the past to me. But I just had to look at it as the same value. Prices change all the time. I just don't know that it's worth getting TOO upset about.

Though you do have a point, I won't deny that.

Brent


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## Christian Marcussen (May 8, 2012)

Yeah, I understand what your saying as a strategy to get over it. 

But the issue itself still remains. It's like when shops do a huge sale and list "before" prices the shop hasn't charged in a while (illegal here in Denmark, but it happens from time to time). 

This motivates people to buy a good under the impression that they are making a good deal. Sure the value of the good is the same, but their reasons for buying it are not. This is not really a matter of opinion or perspective.


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## koolkeys (May 8, 2012)

Christian Marcussen @ Tue May 08 said:


> Yeah, I understand what your saying as a strategy to get over it.
> 
> But the issue itself still remains. It's like when shops do a huge sale and list "before" prices the shop hasn't charged in a while (illegal here in Denmark, but it happens from time to time).
> 
> This motivates people to buy a good under the impression that they are making a good deal. Sure the value of the good is the same, but their reasons for buying it are not. This is not really a matter of opinion or perspective.


Fair enough.

Brent


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## SPOTS (May 8, 2012)

koolkeys said:


> Prices change all the time.


That's very true when you think of companies like East West. It's totally wrong when you think of companies like Spectrasonics. The latest has always been a great example as how they value and respect their customers in re with pricing policy. No pre-order, discount, whatsoever, ever... you take it or you leave it but you know that what you pay for is worth it's price tag (not really actually as you get SO MUCH for the price tag).

Spitfire Audio has also shown a smart pricing policy with their introductory pricing.

I think what would have been fair from 8dio in re with those who pre-ordered Adagio, is to close the pre-order as they first planned and offer an introductory price that is higher than the pre-order but still a good discount vs the full price. Doing so, all early birds would feel rewarded having benefited the best deal on the product.

But from what I feel, I believe the issue is really not as much about the price than about their lack of communication and how they handled the frustrations of some of their customers.

As for me, I didn't want to pre-order on the basis of those customers feedback. But now I am very much looking forward to checking the walkthrough videos 8dio is about to put online soon.


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## KMuzzey (May 8, 2012)

I get a kick out of the "it's too expensive" flame wars on forums but they always confound me: last year a new ethnic percussion library was released at a $600 price point, and everyone was like "WOW THIS IS SO AWESOME" and I was kind of slackjawed by that seemingly universal response - to a *$600* percussion library! - and no one complained about the price. $600 for an ethnic percussion library. But people will complain about $399 being too much for violins, or that $150 is too much for Spitfire's Solo String library (that one really floored me, especially when people were complaining about price even during the obscenely cheap pre-order price), or that $1200 is too much for Symphobia, that Cinematic Strings 2 is too expensive (at an obscenely cheap $499 price point)... I'm with Alex: I think we're falling prey to the 99-cent App Store mentality. 

And I'm typing this while my Adagio Violins are downloading. CAN'T. WAIT.

o-[][]-o 

Kerry


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## Ed (May 8, 2012)

Around £1,500 for all 4 sections in total for next gen string library doesn't seem much to me. Add some more for extra volumes you can buy if you want also doesnt seem too much, they would be like the VSl expansions or whatever it is they call it. 

Sometimes I buy stuff I dont need and at this point prices hurt a bit. But if I get a job that I know a product will make my life easier and make me sound better and inspire me, the price is easily justified. Like, today I finally have a reason to buy the Omnisphere Moog expansion because I got some work that pays well and I know its going to really help me. I work a lot with trailer music, so i also know Adagio's short notes are going to be extremely useful and based on what I've heard in their promotional materials that alone practically justifies the price.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2012)

Ed @ Tue May 08 said:


> But if I get a job that I know a product will make my life easier and make me sound better and inspire me, the price is easily justified.



Yep assuming the job pays well enough to amortize the expenditure.


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## Ed (May 8, 2012)

Oh yes, and many times it doesn't hahah. Also depends on what you're buying. I have loads of percussion now so still can't justify Evolution Percussion even though I'd quite like to have it.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2012)

Ed @ Tue May 08 said:


> Oh yes, and many times it doesn't hahah. Also depends on what you're buying. I have loads of percussion now so still can't justify Evolution Percussion even though I'd quite like to have it.



IMHO, we all need to fight the temptation to buy out of gear lust.

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=6254


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## Mike Greene (May 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 08 said:


> IMHO, we all need to fight the temptation to buy out of gear lust.


No, no, no! Give in to the lust! Buying feels so good!

:mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Tue May 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO, we all need to fight the temptation to buy out of gear lust.
> ...



I know. I am DYING to buy this obscure vocal library but since I don't have a project to use it on, I cannot justify it. Sad.


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## Christian Marcussen (May 8, 2012)

But only as you make the exchange. After that your brain goes back to normal


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Tue May 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO, we all need to fight the temptation to buy out of gear lust.
> ...



You know, if a certain library was re-priced at $19.95 and included a set of Ginsu knives....

...just sayin'.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue May 08 said:


> Mike Greene @ Tue May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 08 said:
> ...



But wait a minute, you ALSO get....


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2012)

I shouldn't speculate about pricing. It indicates I have too much time on my hands (as,apparently, does everyone else in the forum universe.)

Meanwhile back in Adagio land (he said, speculating nevertheless)-I think that as to "premium" pricing, everything is a matter of market perspective.

When LASS, a fully realized string orchestra with cool programming comes out at $1000, when HS, a similarly realized if somewhat different product comes out at a reasonable price point for what you get, and then CS2 at $500-obviously the market is changing somewhat. Adagio seems perfectly reasonably priced to me and always did-it's not like there's some sort of crazy premium to what seems to be some new creative sampling techniques-maybe just a small premium. It sounds wonderful from what I can hear.

José talked about the differences of the back in the day pricing for Roland samplers and software, all of which I owned as well. I'm not so sure that's comparable. We were at the forefront of sampling at that time, when megs of memory cost hundreds of dollars, when a great deal of hardware and hardware engineering was necessary. Things in technology don't usually get MORE expensive anyway-they tend to get cheaper with mass production; and in a software sense, when a semi-open platform like Kontakt becomes the standard, there's no reason to create your own, unless like EW, you wish to free yourself from the fees and the constraints.

My point-price points in technology are always in flux depending on the marketplace and current pricing standards.


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## germancomponist (May 8, 2012)

When I listen to the demos of this library I would say: It is very, very cheap! Maybe too cheap, Troels? 

So little money for a so great library! 

Do you guys know what you have to pay for good violin string players only for one hour on a recording session?


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## midphase (May 8, 2012)

Yes, about $120/3-hours for the union rate. 

But that's not the point. I mean not saying that Adagio don't sound good or aren't a good value for the money...just saying that you can't put a fair comparison between a sample library and a real ensemble...it's a false equivalency.


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## germancomponist (May 8, 2012)

midphase @ Tue May 08 said:


> Yes, about $120/3-hours for the union rate.
> 
> But that's not the point. I mean not saying that Adagio don't sound good or aren't a good value for the money...just saying that you can't put a fair comparison between a sample library and a real ensemble...it's a false equivalency.



+1 Sure, I agree!

What I wanted to underline is the fact that you get a so good sounding library for a so little money.... . 

o-[][]-o


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2012)

midphase @ Tue May 08 said:


> Yes, about $120/3-hours for the union rate.
> 
> But that's not the point. I mean not saying that Adagio don't sound good or aren't a good value for the money...just saying that you can't put a fair comparison between a sample library and a real ensemble...it's a false equivalency.



Wait-$40 an hr plus contributions is the union rate in LA??

The last I knew, a 3 hr gig in NYC was closer to $325 plus....and that was a while ago.


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## midphase (May 8, 2012)

Depends on the budget of your project and the type.


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2012)

Maybe you're speaking of the "special rate" for small films? If so, I didn't realize it was so reasonable.


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