# The Marvel Symphonic Universe



## roknardin

Interesting video by Every Frame A Painting


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## AlexanderSchiborr

roknardin said:


> Interesting video by Every Frame A Painting




I don´t think that this is a solely only marvel movie Films "phenomenon". It is a general thing that applies to a lot of other blockbuster and even other genre movies..but wha the heck..I hope this video doesn´t contribute any another major discussion what is good vs bad music.

Block Buster movies from nowadays do not touch me emotionally but maybe that is the reason why the music is pretty much of the same kind to my ears. Maybe there is a subtle connection? For me the movies are having no controversy anymore as the music is supposely a kind of reflection of that. But that is really just my personal taste and choice and I guess I am just emotionally resistent and a true denial to modern filmmusic so I go and keep watching my old stuff from the 40s and 80s which makes me still very happy.


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## AR

Uuuuh that did hurt like a punch in the nuts. The question is for whom? Director or composer?


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## Zhao Shen

AR said:


> Uuuuh that did hurt like a punch in the nuts. The question is for whom? Director or composer?


I think it was a commentary on the system more than anything else. The temp tracks portion is the most compelling argument. I think most composers would love to bring more attention to their music and create incredible moments. There's a reason Zimmer quit superhero films, essentially because they were too generic with the music process. Another reason I'm excited for _Dunkirk_.


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## stonzthro

Corporate film making at its finest.


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## MA-Simon

Here is a post on Kotaku which features a second Video released together with the top post video regarding temp scores: http://kotaku.com/the-forgettable-music-of-the-marvel-cinematic-universe-1786532230


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## Kralc

I liked the video, didn't totally agree with the "it's boring cause it's scoring what you're seeing". I think scoring what you're seeing is important, you just need context within the larger scope of the story.

I think the answer to "why don't we remember new themes" question is also zero thematic development. The video @mverta created for one of his classes (the correct on escapes me right now, Theminator???) where he shows Williams developing the Force Theme to grow with Luke's character development, vs Batman Begins and similar cues being played each time, demonstrates it best.

Which brings me back to my first point. When triumphant music is being played because Luke has done something triumphant, it's not "boring" or not "challenging the audience". It's dramatically effective because it's been setup within the story.


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## Replicant

A good demonstration of what I've been saying for years, but allow me to summarize:

Modern, blockbuster-film music is forgettable because melodious composition is discouraged.


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## Greg

Memorable music would be an all too obvious dichotomy for those cannon fodder films.


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## Kralc

Greg said:


> Memorable music would be an all too obvious dichotomy for those cannon fodder films.



Eh. I'd kill (not literally NSA) to score a Marvel film. Civil War was a damn good time, I'm looking forward to Doctor Strange (Giacchino ). I can totally understand if the genre is not for you, but generalising them outright seems a little dismissive.


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## stonzthro

To be clear, I thought the first Captain America was good, and while the music wasn't incredible, it worked well. Many people can remember the theme to the first Cap film. While I generally agree, the arguments in this video are all over the map (were this a thesis of some sort, it would have been rejected promptly!). 
- Few strong themes - but only evidenced by a selected audience of seemingly random people who can sing music from a movie that is almost 40 years old
- Too much music where it doesn't need to be - decades of this in the history books
- Dialog is too loud or unnecessary - decades of this too, my friend
- cliches - uh, ok... so no high strings ANYMORE!
- Temp love - again, nothing new
I guess the point is that the music in Marvel films are too safe, and the 'suits' are the ones to blame, or is it the directors, or the editors, or is it we're all incapable of being creative due to non-linear editors, is it the deadlines - I'm just not sure who is to blame from the video? BTW, what is Mad Max even doing in here, I thought we were talking about Marvel? At that point it felt to me like a propaganda video.

I personally think the Marvel movies have become very simple in general - predictable, and sadly obvious - seems to me the real problem isn't the score, but the actual writing; boring, childish, unimaginative, uninspiring, too distant from anything relevant (at least to me).

Bottom line: it isn't the music that is playing it safe, the music mirrors the screen. Corporate movie making...


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## chillbot

To me Marvel has become cartoons, which are 90% smashing things and blowing things up. I must be the only one to think this because clearly a ton of people go watch them. DC, too, for that matter. And I am the target audience (or should be) having grown up reading and re-reading and collecting 1000s of these comics. These heros are legends to me... but I don't want to watch CG Spiderman I'd rather see a real person in a cheesy mask. I think the only Marvel film I enjoyed at all was one of the X-men movies that went back in time and focused on the characters. Character development goes a long ways and is so much better than smashing things. First season of Netflix Daredevil had this until it went downhill. 

Not that this has much to do with the original post, just piggybacking on to the last post. But I'm not a fan of any score in the Marvel universe. Burton's Batman, original Superman, and maybe Nolan's Batman, in that order.


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## galactic orange

stonzthro said:


> - Too much music where it doesn't need to be - decades of this in the history books


I totally agree. One of the things I love about Japanese films is that they know when NOT to use music. Also, Japanese music in general values placing silence as much as placing musical notes. The impact of a scene with no music is that much more powerful when it finally comes in. That being said, I do think the recent X-Men movie scores by both Henry Jackman and John Ottman had some great moments, recognizable themes, and some stand-out horn parts (but not nearly enough!).


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## Guy Bacos

It was worth watching just for the Spiderman bit.


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## NoamL

It's not just Marvel. I did a study of a lot of movie theme commonalities a few months ago. What I found is that within the following Markov graph:






You can find the themes to:

*Thor: The Dark World
Marvel Studios Fanfare
G. I. Joe
Marvel's The Avengers
Man Of Steel
Pacific Rim
Big Hero 6
X-Men: First Class
Overwatch
Guardians Of The Galaxy
V For Vendetta*
and probably a lot more.

No wonder composers today are so intent on having a fresh standout sound, when they're all using the same harmonies. Yet sounds get worn out, or dated, or imitated to death. It's the tunes we remember.

The video glances on what I think is the biggest problem with these modern blockbusters. There is - or seems to be, anyway - no planned role for *thematic music*. That could easily be the cause of *all* the other problems he cites.

When the score has no thematic role to fill in the film:

it's unsurprising that the rough cut already kind of works with haphazard scene-by-scene temp stolen from the last dozen blockbusters;
it's unsurprising that the themes have few places to shine and receive little development, making them unmemorable even if they are well-conceived (as I think all of the above scores' themes are!);
it's unsurprising if much of the score is devoted to "pacing music" - the ubiquitous synth basses, perc loops and tension violins that basically go in one ear and out the other;
and finally it's no surprise if the final product ends up totally undermixed.
This is something Steven Spielberg understands so, so well. There is a musical soul inside his movies that would be there even if John Williams didn't score them.

It's in the way he lingers on shots of faces, and the way he sets up scenes with bold wide shots with almost operatic staging. It's even in the way he edits action.

The root of the problem is that we lack mature directors who are willing to* risk making a movie that wouldn't work without a good composer.
*
Y'all seen this, right?



Think about the courage it took to script, storyboard, shoot, and assemble this footage knowing at every stage: "Either John Williams is gonna make it work, or it's not gonna work."

What director out there today has that kind of trust in his composer?

Whatever our musical tastes surely we can agree that composers like Zimmer, Giacchino, Elfman, Silvestri, deserve this kind of trust and creative freedom. But do they get it?

Think of any JJ Abrams movie... with the exception of a few "the characters look at a big special effect shot" scenes (e.g. Kirk sees Enterprise for the first time, or the scene in Force Awakens where Ginger Hitler blows up the planets) I dunno if there are even 10 whole seconds in _*Super 8*_ or _*Star Trek*_ or _*Force Awakens* _that leave a Spielbergian gap between dialog/sfx/action for something _*emotional*_ to happen. Without those scenes, it's not just the music that's unmemorable, it's the whole movie. 

Even at the very end of _*Force Awakens *-_ it's a pure character moment, right? Two heroes from two sagas meet, a look of understanding passes between them, the music swells - what is JJ Abrams doing? Helicopter shot. Dude is terrified if the camera stops moving too long we might stop caring.


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## G.R. Baumann

Guy Bacos said:


> It was worth watching just for the Spiderman bit.



Yeppers 

I thought the research was well presented and nailed down a serious point. It has come to the effect that a half way talented computer wizzkid can compose such films, it's like painting by numbers. OK, exaggerated a little bit, but not much. 

Marvel Music is the Big Mac of the Filmmusic, tastes always the same, regardless where you buy / contract it it.


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## Gerhard Westphalen

I find this modern emotionally removed style to be just as valid an approach as before. Having the music not be a character of it's own and blend more into the background can be good for pulling me into the world of the film and not think about what the music is doing. Emotionally, of course, it tends to be much less engaging. My view is probably largely influenced by having grown up with these movies (I only saw my first Hitchcock film and E.T. 3 months ago).


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## re-peat

The video makes many good points — nothing that wasn’t known already though — but omits one *very* important thing: the mention that writing ‘memorable’ music requires a composer _that has the talent to do so_.

If, as a director and/or producer, you want your movie’s score to have strong themes like ‘Indiana Jones’, ‘E.T.’, ‘Star Wars’, ‘Superman’, ‘Harry Potter’, … and Williams isn’t available, who are you going to ask these days? There’s no one around, is there? Literally no one. I don’t know of a single film composer from the last 2 or 3 decades in film scoring, who has even the faintest glimpse of that unique melodic talent which Williams had. (You can’t even ask Williams himself anymore, cause his well of extra-ordinary melodic invention dried up 15-20 years ago.)

Secondly, I always find it rather silly and pathetic when composers get together — like they do in that video (or on forums) — and sit around blaming the system for the absence of memorable music in today’s movies. Something very lazy and extremely dishonest, I find, about “We could have written great music and memorable melodies for these movies, you know, but the formula-addicted system just wouldn’t let us.” 
The painful truth however is: _they couldn’t_. Not even if they tried. Not even if they were given all the creative freedom they want. The makers of that video may not blame the composers for thoday’s musical drearyness in blockbuster movies, but I do.

At the time when he had to start scoring ‘Superman’ (or ‘Star Wars’), Williams was every bit as much the prisoner of a template-based and formula-addicted film industry as today’s composers are, and he could have done a perfectly adequate job by delivering professionaly-made generic (and forgettable) blockbuster music, and no one would have complained and it wouldn’t have lessened the film’s success, but … he did something more, something which no one asked him to do but which his passion for the art drove him to do: within that supposedly creativity-killing framework that is the risk-free, cliché-ridden blockbuster idiom, he managed to deliver work of a musical depth and richness — built around motives and themes of staggering musical power (and with unforgettable melodic hooks) — that went FAR beyond what the job required and that, as such, puts every composer, then and since, who moans about the system not allowing for creativity, to shame.

_


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## G.R. Baumann

As for filmmusic in general, an outstanding (in my book that is) example is this film http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2184287/ Summer in February, Music by Benjamin Wallfisch.

My line of thought is, that a classical training will go a long way, and one can hear it in Benjamin's work.

Complex, simple, and multilayered at the same time, it serves the emotional aspects of the film! Filmmusic at it's best!


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## G.R. Baumann

roknardin said:


> Interesting video by Every Frame A Painting



Thanks for posting that. This could turn into a very interesting thread....


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## Replicant

re-peat said:


> The video makes many good points — nothing that wasn’t known already though — but omits one *very* important thing: the mention that writing ‘memorable’ music requires a composer _that has the talent to do so_.
> 
> If, as a director and/or producer, you want your movie’s score to have strong themes like ‘Indiana Jones’, ‘E.T.’, ‘Star Wars’, ‘Superman’, ‘Harry Potter’, … and Williams isn’t available, who are you going to ask these days? There’s no one around, is there? Literally no one. I don’t know of a single film composer from the last 2 or 3 decades in film scoring, who has even the faintest glimpse of that unique melodic talent which Williams had. (You can’t even ask Williams himself anymore, cause his well of extra-ordinary melodic invention dried up 15-20 years ago.)
> 
> Secondly, I always find it rather silly and pathetic when composers get together — like they do in that video (or on forums) — and sit around blaming the system for the absence of memorable music in today’s movies. Something very lazy and extremely dishonest, I find, about “We could have written great music and memorable melodies for these movies, you know, but the formula-addicted system just wouldn’t let us.”
> The painful truth however is: _they couldn’t_. Not even if they tried. Not even if they were given all the creative freedom they want. The makers of that video may not blame the composers for thoday’s musical drearyness in blockbuster movies, but I do.
> 
> At the time when he had to start scoring ‘Superman’ (or ‘Star Wars’), Williams was every bit as much the prisoner of a template-based and formula-addicted film industry as today’s composers are, and he could have done a perfectly adequate job by delivering professionaly-made generic (and forgettable) blockbuster music, and no one would have complained and it wouldn’t have lessened the film’s success, but … he did something more, something which no one asked him to do but which his passion for the art drove him to do: within that supposedly creativity-killing framework that is the risk-free, cliché-ridden blockbuster idiom, he managed to deliver work of a musical depth and richness — built around motives and themes of staggering musical power (and with unforgettable melodic hooks) — that went FAR beyond what the job required and that, as such, puts every composer, then and since, who moans about the system not allowing for creativity, to shame.
> 
> _



I disagree. There are plenty of composers out there who have great melodic talent, it's just that _Hollywood_ favours to the "elite", so to speak. It's like pop music; there's great talent out there, but corporate isn't interested. Especially in video games, there are many composers who I'd argue mirror the days of old Hollywood. Uematsu, Shimomura, Koji Kondo and Yuka Tsujioko to name just a few people, and all from the same country, no less. I'd argue every game each of these people have worked on in the last 20 years, has had a more memorable score than just about any movie most of the top dogs in Hollywood have done over the same period -- the average indie game has a more memorable score than most major films these days. Hell, there's even that JJay Berthume guy on YouTube who absolutely nails the John Williams style.

The talent is definitely out there to do it, but unknown composers and game composers don't really get a fair shake at film; film guys keep popping up in games, though. I suspect mostly for star power and the fact that a lot of newer "AAA" games aspire to be more like film.

Despite this, I still feel being locked to the temp music is a hindrance; guys like Elfman are definitely capable of composing great themes. The first indie-film gig I got, I did so because "That one demo you have sounds just like the temp music we have! Create something like that again!". I had a similar experience on one of the first games I worked on. They showed me this super-generic library music track they really liked and wanted me to create something "just like it". Of course, my version was not the same and I don't want to copy it -- they wound up just licensing the library track.


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## G.R. Baumann

Replicant said:


> they wound up just licensing the library track



... that is a painful experience!

I agree, there is plenty of talent and proven composers out there, that is why I pointed to Benjamin Wallfisch, and many people, I am sure, have not even heard of him.


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## galactic orange

Replicant said:


> Especially in video games, there are many composers who I'd argue mirror the days of old Hollywood. Uematsu, Shimomura, Koji Kondo and Yuka Tsujioko to name just a few people, and all from the same country, no less. I'd argue every game each of these people have worked on in the last 20 years, has had a more memorable score than just about any movie most of the top dogs in Hollywood have done over the same period -- the average indie game has a more memorable score than most major films these days.



Music to my ears, I must say. Of course, I'm probably biased growing up with video game music having the biggest influence on my musical preferences. Koji Kondo's work on Starfox still blows me away to this day: the themes, the atmosphere they created. And we're talking about roughly 8 tracks of low quality PCM samples, nothing near realistic orchestras. But the compositions stood on their own. I can listen to Uematsu's FF6 over and over, but one playthrough of "popular" studio approved scores and I've lost interest and go back to the classics.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

I don´t think that there are no talented composers out there who can do the job. l I think that this is also an interdependency of both sides, film and filmscore. Those blockbuster movies don´t function anymore the way how music was scored for film a couple of decades ago. It starts just for instance with the structure of such movies, they don´t represent that kind of classical 3 - 4 part structure, instead of one climax hunts the next and so on. Plus directors are not anymore able to tell compelling stories. If the reason is that they rely to much on special effects " to tell" the story is one thing and another point is that these movies have exorbitant costs so of course they "need" to be succesful at all possible costs, so there is no room anymore for any experiments or any controversy in the movie and the music. In general I think strong melodies with rich underpinning harmonies are perceived ecspecially by the younger producers of film as a kind old fashioned, and so that is also probably a reason why we have a very reduced harmonic language in filmscores for bluckbusters. And look at the quality of acting? I don´t think that the majority of actors really do act in a way which transports at least for my sense real emotions. I have watched in the last 20 years a lof of old movies from the 40s and I realized how extremely different emotionally the acting was at that time. It is alarming I have to say..


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## NoamL

Replicant said:


> Especially in video games, there are many composers who I'd argue mirror the days of old Hollywood. Uematsu, Shimomura, Koji Kondo and Yuka Tsujioko to name just a few people, and all from the same country, no less.



It's because in Japan they have not got tired of jazz, and sophisticated tonality generally.

In today's Hollywood the sound is mostly mediants. Like some form of I bIII IV or I bVI IV like you see in that Markov graph. Avoid dominants, avoid sevenths, avoid significantly prepared modulations (pedals and such).

Or do 'em. And don't land gigs...


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## G.R. Baumann

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> It is alarming I have to say..



What thoughts are on your mind Alexander, what alarms you in particular? 

Is it not that music is a mirror of the social-economical-political realities of any given time? I am not too astonished by the trends and industry changes in music, filmmusic and game music. All of this is a reflection of our societal change, consense, or lack of consense if you want.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

G.R. Baumann said:


> What thoughts are on your mind Alexander, what alarms you in particular?
> 
> Is it not that music is a mirror of the social-economical-political realities of any given time? I am not too astonished by the trends and industry changes in music, filmmusic and game music. All of this is a reflection of our societal change, consense, or lack of consense if you want.



Well I mean those movies and scores are so forgettable for me like a Big mac at Mcdonalds. You consume them and then you head on without any neural stimulus. There is nothing for me that let me think, that touches my heart and where I go out of the movie and let me review my own things, and even if it is just a little something of that. Unfortunately it was getting quite bad for myself: Those movies started even to annoy my stimulus in general. But this is a very subjective opinion. I don´t think that this applies to others but for me I am depressed when I go out of the majority of blockbuster movies because I often think and remember how the great old days were, but maybe it is just my own perception thinking that things from the past are better? Probably that has also to do with it. Sure it has. And so maybe that is a generational change. Which in the end lets me think: Ah Alex, it is all fine, relax because this is just the normal every generation process shit even my parents probably went through?..Who knows.


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## re-peat

Replicant said:


> There are plenty of composers out there who have great melodic talent




Not among the roster of composers Hollywood turns to these days to provide their blockbusters with music, there ain't. Mind you, that doesn't necessarily make these people poor composers, but they *do* come up short if _iconic, memorable action theme_s is what you're looking for. (And that is one of the main voids that video is pointing at: lack of memorable melodic content in today's blockbusters.)
Elfman came close once, with his 'Batman' theme. And Zimmer did too with his 'Pirates' music, but beyond that, I can't name any other themes that have nested themselves in the minds of the movie-going public (and far beyond) like so many of Williams' themes have.

If, like they do in that video, you go out on the street and ask people to sing you the main theme from one the blockbusters of the last 20 years, no one is capable to do so. No one. Again, that doesn't automatically indicate that all that music is intrinsically bad -- some of it is very good indeed, and it's all expertly crafted --, but it does indicate that those scores don't contain anything as melodically powerful and memorable as, say, the Raiders march or E.T.'s flying theme.

- - -

Nailing 'the John Williams style' is one thing. Anyone can do that, provided they're not completely devoid of musical talent and are prepared to take the time to study Williams' musical language seriously. However, writing melodies like Williams used to, that is something different altogether: that requires a combination of gift, skill, commitment and inspiration which is extremely rare. (The 'once in four or five generations' kind of rarity, in fact.) We've all heard our share of Williams imitators, even some whose impersonations are creepily accurate, but me, I have *never* heard anyone of these people compose a melody that the mid-season Williams would have been proud to put his name to.

Again: if it is the desire of the makers of the next Marvel installment to have music which has the melodic strengths of Williams' best work, there is no one around today they can ask to write it.
(Directors/producers/composers who dabble in 60's type spy movies, or Bond sequels, face a similar problem: how to avoid presenting more proof for the fact that no one is quite able write unforgettable melodies quite the way Barry was able to.)

_


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## Replicant

re-peat said:


> Not among the roster of composers Hollywood turns to these days to provide their blockbusters with music, there ain't.



Thus, I suggested Hollywood look elsewhere.

I dare say that a hefty dose of fandom is causing you to look at this a little too subjectively as you're putting Williams on a pedestal above all others. It is unlikely that any theme anyone would suggest as comparison would be seen as comparison at all because you believe Williams to be inherently "gifted" -- divinely superior. Also, Klaus Badelt composed most of "Pirates'" notable themes, not Hans Zimmer.



re-peat said:


> I have *never* heard anyone of these people compose a melody that the mid-season Williams would have been proud to put his name to.



That's because you believe Williams himself to be the alpha and omega of composition. Can you explain why, in musical terms we can all understand, why none of these composers have made a melody that John Williams would be proud to put his name to? It can't be magic. What does he _do_ that makes it just so transcendent?



re-peat said:


> Again: if it is the desire of the makers of the next Marvel installment to have music which has the melodic strengths of Williams' best work, there is no one around today they can ask to write it.



Sure they do; they just need to broaden their horizons.

I love John Williams as much as the next person, but many exaggerate his music. It's not like every piece of music he wrote for films was an instant iconic theme to stand the test of time, with melodic material no other composer could possibly conceive. For every "Force Theme", "Duel of The Fates", "Imperial March", "Hedwig's Theme" etc., there are at least 3 more pieces he composed that you don't remember.

There is also the matter of how (much by chance) he wound up scoring some of the most iconic _films_ of all time. John Williams is great, yes - but impossible to match or surpass? No.


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## prodigalson

re-peat said:


> Again: if it is the desire of the makers of the next Marvel installment to have music which has the melodic strengths of Williams' best work, there is no one around today they can ask to write it.



While I don't necessarily disagree with the main thrust of your argument, I think it's somewhat circular reasoning to say that because they don't, they can't. And I'm not sure it's enough to simply say: well, If they could, they would, because I think that underestimates the difficulties in dealing with producers and directors today (as outlined above in Replicants example of the filmmakers just licensing his track despite writing something else) and the competitiveness of the current industry where even A-list composers are likely constantly aware of the possibility of being replaced. And of course, the premise "if they want the next marvel installment to have music which has the melodic strengths of Williams best work.." is certainly not a given by any means. 

At a clinic at USC, John Williams himself said, in response to a question about temp music, that he feels very grateful for not having had to deal with it for most of his career. He said himself that he couldn't possibly have written the music to Jaws, for example, if he had had temp music.


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## re-peat

_*Replicant said: *(...) Thus, I suggested Hollywood look elsewhere._
Where?

_I dare say that a hefty dose of fandom is causing you to look at this a little too subjectively as you're putting Williams on a pedestal above all others._
I'm a fan, yes. And the musician in me believes mid-season Williams (between 1975 and 1995) to be a freak of nature.

_Because you believe Williams to be inherently "gifted" -- divinely superior. _
Yes. And, surely, we don't have to argue whether Williams is inherently gifted or not?

_Also, Klaus Badelt composed most of "Pirates'" notable themes, not Hans Zimmer._
Mmm. Let's ask Mr. Zimmer.

_That's because you believe Williams himself to be the alpha and omega of composition. _
No, I don't. Far from it. But in one particular field of musical creativity — neo-romantic, musically conservative orchestral film scoring that abounds with memorable melodic invention —, Williams is a reference, yes.

_Can you explain why, in musical terms we can all understand, why none of these composers have made a melody that John Williams would be proud to put his name to? It can't be magic. What does he do that makes it just so transcendent?_
He has an ultra-rare gift for melody. Like Bizet had. Or Mozart. Or Tchaikovsky. Or Gershwin. Or McCartney. Or Richard Rodgers. A gift for melody like these people had, is something seperate from the 'normal' musical talent, which is far more common. You can't study it, you can't imitate it, you're either blessed with it or not. It is, in fact, magic, yes. And if you can't hear, or need explaining, why it is so, there's simply no point in even trying to explain it to you. You either can recognize it, or you can't.

_I love John Williams as much as the next person, but many exaggerate his music. It's not like every piece of music he wrote for films was an instant iconic theme to stand the test of time, with melodic material no other composer could possibly conceive. For every "Force Theme", "Duel of The Fates", "Imperial March", "Hedwig's Theme" etc., there are at least 3 more pieces he composed that you don't remember_.
Of those four examples, you picked three which I don't consider among his most memorable work (and two which I even find fairly mediocre work). Which, again, tells me that this discussion is quite pointless.

_John Williams is great, yes - but impossible to match or surpass? No. _
Saying that is, yet again, an indication that you don't really grasp how unique -- strictly musically speaking -- some of Williams' output has been.

_


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## Jimmy Hellfire

It's a good video. From a composer's perspective, it of course doesn't reveal anything new, but it's educational and valuable to the film audience.

I couldn't score 10 minutes of one of these Hollywood movies. I'd fail miserably. I know how to write music, but there's so many ridiculous, completely idiotic rules about this modern film scoring thing I'd first have to really, really internalize, and a lot of it has to do with making some kind of music while trying not to do so with all your might.

I'm also completely baffled that anyone would ever want to do that.


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## mickeyl

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> there's so many ridiculous, completely idiotic rules about this modern film scoring thing


Like?


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## Jimmy Hellfire

mickeyl said:


> Like?



Well, for example all this stuff that were pointed out in the video. Like, it's not supposed to be heard. Or, we need music here because because. Or: tragic moment = high violins. Etc. etc. So many things that are common practice just because nobody ever thinks about it, so many things you won't have automatized if you're not completely immersed in the whole signaling game of scoring these things.


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## Fer

Sountrack music that i can recall is just an 0,1% of what i have heard. From that 0,1%, 99,99% are main themes with beautiful and iconic melodies, but not incidental music (not sure if this is the word in english). i rarely remember incidental music of John Williams or any other.

But i think that the quality of the music not necesarely means that one should be able to remember it from memory. I think for example in of one of my favourtes: First blood. I can not recall from memory all the incidental music, but to me the whole sountrack is a masterpiece. Also i can recall Harry Potters main theme with the same facility that the star wars main theme, but to me at least they dont have the same level from an artistic point of view.

I wish actual sountrack sounded as good as Jerry goslmith´s/JW not-easy-memorizable music.


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## Mundano

is Ennio Morricone on Vi-Forum?


----------



## Saxer

Why composing new melodies? The big studios doesn't even allow new characters. It's an endless loop of remakes or sequels. Boring.

Exeption: I like stuff from Michael Giacchino. Couldn't get his new StarTrack theme out of my head for days! Same with Up and The Incredibles.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Speaking of playing it safe and not taking chances, Zappa's view on this.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Mundano said:


> is Ennio Morricone on Vi-Forum?



Hope not. He would probably sue most of us for rampant copying.


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## rottoy

Mundano said:


> is Ennio Morricone on Vi-Forum?


The guy doesn't even speak English, so why would he bother with us twerps?


----------



## David Story

I love the Marvel Universe. Memorable characters and stories plus the best continuity and variety. The DCEU has decades of memorable music in TV, films, and games. Not all great art, but the person on the street may know these tunes.

Superman March (Timberg), Superman March (Williams) 
Batman (Hefti), Batman (Elfman), Batman The Animated Series (Walker), Batman (Remote Control)
Wonder Woman (Fox), Wonder Woman (Holkenborg)

With Marvel there's Spider-Man (Webster- Harris), maybe Avengers (Silvestri), the songs from the 70s in Guardians. There's a real difference in the music that Marvel prefers. I also know this from personal experience and that of my friends and colleagues.

It would be awesome for Dr.Strange to have an exotic and memorable theme. It would be a real surprise if that happens, and not simply because we're in an age of corporate filmmaking.


----------



## Fer

Perhaps producers are afraid of great melodic memorable music much better than the film itself? To focus all the atention into something very boring can be difficult if great music is sounding in the background


----------



## AR

Zhao Shen said:


> I think it was a commentary on the system more than anything else. The temp tracks portion is the most compelling argument. I think most composers would love to bring more attention to their music and create incredible moments. There's a reason Zimmer quit superhero films, essentially because they were too generic with the music process. Another reason I'm excited for _Dunkirk_.


Maybe he quit cause he knew Snyder was steering the whole ship full frontal into a iceberg. Hans jumped off in a right moment. Ya gotta know when a era's over.


----------



## AR

But to take one composer under the wings... Bear McCreary did a great job on the S.H.I.E.L.D. theme and throught the whole series. The series is crap, but his music stands on his own. HE definitly created THE Avengers theme. Shame on all the others who threw their hats in. In Thor 1 this theme, in Avengers no theme at all for this character, in Thor 2 a totally different theme. same goes for all the others. baaaaah.


----------



## galactic orange

AR said:


> But to take one composer under the wings... Bear McCreary did a great job on the S.H.I.E.L.D. theme and throught the whole series. The series is crap, but his music stands on his own. HE definitly created THE Avengers theme. Shame on all the others who threw their hats in.


McCreary's work is pretty impressive to me, the live orchestra scores especially. So you're saying he wrote the Avengers theme and not Silvestri, or are you making the point that McCreary's themes are "better" or "the definitive Avengers sound" so to speak?


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## NoamL

I never got the _"Post-Jurassic-Park Williams isn't as great" _argument. To me those are some of his greatest scores. _Especially _from a composer perspective, because they're kind of, you could argue almost excessively, compositional scores.

Post-'95 Williams is like Hyper Super Ultra Williams: the orchestrations get even more kaleidoscopic:



material gets tossed around the orchestra at even faster speeds:



he just absolutely refuses to dumb down his compositional language... when was the last time you heard bitonality in a film score?



and the themes? Williams _*single handedly carried*_ Catch Me If You Can:



and three Harry Potters, at the _very_ least:



They have a Harry Potter theme park now and just like Star Wars, the music is front and center in every bit of advertising. That cinematic universe _is _the music.


----------



## patrick76

NoamL said:


> I never got the _"Post-Jurassic-Park Williams isn't as great" _argument. To me those are some of his greatest scores. _Especially _from a composer perspective, because they're kind of, you could argue almost excessively, compositional scores.



Love Jurassic Park and earlier stuff, but agree he has written really wonderful things since then. Harry Potter and A.I. are outstanding works in my opinion. I also think Rey's theme from The Force Awakens is great.


----------



## Aenae

NoamL said:


> Even at the very end of _*Force Awakens *-_ it's a pure character moment, right? Two heroes from two sagas meet, a look of understanding passes between them, the music swells - what is JJ Abrams doing? Helicopter shot. Dude is terrified if the camera stops moving too long we might stop caring.


That is not really correct I think, he threw that helicopter shot in order to extend that sequence just because of the cue that Williams had written did not fit the sequence anymore after a new edit. The other alternative he had for the end of the movie instead of the aerial shot was to end the movie with a close-up of Rey and cut some of the music I think, but the Jedi Steps cue made him extend the sequence by throwing the helicopter shot in so the music would fit.

The problem seems to be that Williams did not have a locked cut and that they kept editing the film after the music was recorded for the sequence.


----------



## scottbuckley

I watched the original videos, and some good points are made. I don't think it's a major crime that themes are as prominent these days, and I do agree that linear editing hasn't helped all the temp love. But films are what directors and composer make them. Storytellers and filmmakers aren't bound by physical laws - they are free to do what they want, and if this is what they want, then so be it. I'll still go and see their films. Maybe it just makes be a little happier that I'm no longer in the industry, but whatever...

The Marvel films are hugely successful, you can't really dispute that. If they've done it without having a strong theme (although I would argue Silvestri's 'The Avengers' theme is pretty strong), then all the power to them. Bring on 'Doctor Strange', please.


----------



## AR

galactic orange said:


> McCreary's work is pretty impressive to me, the live orchestra scores especially. So you're saying he wrote the Avengers theme and not Silvestri, or are you making the point that McCreary's themes are "better" or "the definitive Avengers sound" so to speak?


I mean, Bear wrote a REAL, memorable theme for SHIELD, which was at the time part of the Avengers in the first movie. So one can say, it's kinda a Avengers theme. Compared to Elfman, Silvestri, (and pitty even Tyler), they all messed up their part writing a memorable theme. You know Henry Jackman had a really good approach in the 2nd Capt. America movie. These long horn notes and underneath a 10/8 beat. And now? In the third installment everything's gone. Same director, same composer - all gone. Made me so angry. Instead, he wrote another new Avengers tune. Which one? no. 3? or no. 5? I lost counting.
They all should've sat together and compose the music for their character. Ramin Djawadi (Iron Man), Alan Silvestri or Henry Jackman (Capt. America), Craig Armstrong (Hulk), Patrick Doyle or Brian Tyler (Thor), Bear McCreary (SHIELD & Nick Fury), Elfman (Spider-Man) and in such huge projects like Avengers and Civil War, they should've interwoven those themes. If you repeat themes more than 10 times in a movie, it starts to get stuck in your head.
I see the risk in making a score nowadays so pidgeonholed, sticked to their character. You get the feeling as if you watch a movie, instead of being at that live event. Let me put it that way: A) You have memorable themes that stick in your head or B) you have pretty much underscore going on that gives a scene more drive instead of making the character shine. Well, that's like A) watching your kids playing outside from inside your house through a window, being always aware, that you're looking through a frame and you can't reach them or B) being outside playing with them, being live in action. 
I can understand why directors want to lead every possible medium towards pulling the audience into the live action. This makes superheroes more believable. If Hulk rises underneath a destroyed building there isn't a shiny hero theme anymore. We hear a BRAAAAAAMMMM that shatters the IMAX theater :D ...alright I can live with that. 
But? What made superheroes so great?? - Was it not also the great music that came with 'em?? Superman, Spider-Man, Batman (that crazy Pulp Fiction-like theme :D)

We gotta get oldskool, fellas!


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Guy Bacos said:


> Zappa's view



De-Punk...De-Metallize... ROFLMAO

Zappa: "It's like a word processor for music."


----------



## Rctec

Replicant said:


> Thus, I suggested Hollywood look elsewhere.
> 
> I dare say that a hefty dose of fandom is causing you to look at this a little too subjectively as you're putting Williams on a pedestal above all others. It is unlikely that any theme anyone would suggest as comparison would be seen as comparison at all because you believe Williams to be inherently "gifted" -- divinely superior. Also, Klaus Badelt composed most of "Pirates'" notable themes, not Hans Zimmer.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you believe Williams himself to be the alpha and omega of composition. Can you explain why, in musical terms we can all understand, why none of these composers have made a melody that John Williams would be proud to put his name to? It can't be magic. What does he _do_ that makes it just so transcendent?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they do; they just need to broaden their horizons.
> 
> I love John Williams as much as the next person, but many exaggerate his music. It's not like every piece of music he wrote for films was an instant iconic theme to stand the test of time, with melodic material no other composer could possibly conceive. For every "Force Theme", "Duel of The Fates", "Imperial March", "Hedwig's Theme" etc., there are at least 3 more pieces he composed that you don't remember.
> 
> There is also the matter of how (much by chance) he wound up scoring some of the most iconic _films_ of all time. John Williams is great, yes - but impossible to match or surpass? No.


Really?!? Which of Klaus' themes in Pirates are the memorable one's?


----------



## AlexRuger

galactic orange said:


> One of the things I love about Japanese films is that they know when NOT to use music.



Though, when music is used, it's often incredibly jarring. At least in anime.

I'm looking at _you, _opening of Ghost in the Shell.

Anyways.

I'd hate to see this thread dissolve into _Is Williams Awesome? Can He Write Things? Let's Find Out! _As we all know, the matter discussed in the YouTube video is _extremely _complex. The "system" is definitely to blame, and so are the suits, and so are the composers, and so is the audience, and then there's lots of other neutral forces that affect the artistic legacy of a culture and a time.

I myself am not a fan of where superhero scoring has gone on the whole, but at the same time, I've definitely lost the desire to tell those stories as I've gotten older. Sure, there are some shitty trends in scoring that have been increasing for some time now, but it's not like film scoring as a whole has shit the bed. There's tons and tons of awesome scores released every year that are interesting and challenging and really taking risks. You just have to dig for it, just like it's always been.

I always find it odd that people hold up Williams as the example for _film scoring used to have _*class. *Go back and watch any random movie that was out in 1977 that _wasn't _Star Wars--film scores have always sucked, just as movies have always sucked. The fact that people hold up the same five scores when talking about how film music used to be _so _much better is pretty telling. 

It's survivorship bias. You hear the same argument outside of film scoring all the time: "_Real _music died with John Lennon." "_Real _music died with Kurt Cobain." Etc. Yes, but did _real _music die with Kevin DuBrow of Quiet Riot fame? For all we know, _real _music died with Mark Tulin of The Electric Prunes.

But I digress.

Yes, Williams is and was an absolutely maniac of a composer, and he amazes and humbles me every day. He's definitely one of the best that has ever done this, and there likely won't be another like him (again, for a very complex web of reasons--he himself would say he's been pretty insulated from a lot of the darker trends in the medium).


----------



## NoamL

AR said:


> I mean, Bear wrote a REAL, memorable theme for SHIELD, which was at the time part of the Avengers in the first movie. So one can say, it's kinda a Avengers theme. Compared to Elfman, Silvestri, (and pitty even Tyler), they all messed up their part writing a memorable theme. You know Henry Jackman had a really good approach in the 2nd Capt. America movie. These long horn notes and underneath a 10/8 beat. And now? In the third installment everything's gone. Same director, same composer - all gone. Made me so angry. Instead, he wrote another new Avengers tune. Which one? no. 3? or no. 5? I lost counting.
> They all should've sat together and compose the music for their character. Ramin Djawadi (Iron Man), Alan Silvestri or Henry Jackman (Capt. America), Craig Armstrong (Hulk), Patrick Doyle or Brian Tyler (Thor), Bear McCreary (SHIELD & Nick Fury), Elfman (Spider-Man) and in such huge projects like Avengers and Civil War, they should've interwoven those themes. If you repeat themes more than 10 times in a movie, it starts to get stuck in your head.
> I see the risk in making a score nowadays so pidgeonholed, sticked to their character. You get the feeling as if you watch a movie, instead of being at that live event. Let me put it that way: A) You have memorable themes that stick in your head or B) you have pretty much underscore going on that gives a scene more drive instead of making the character shine. Well, that's like A) watching your kids playing outside from inside your house through a window, being always aware, that you're looking through a frame and you can't reach them or B) being outside playing with them, being live in action.
> I can understand why directors want to lead every possible medium towards pulling the audience into the live action. This makes superheroes more believable. If Hulk rises underneath a destroyed building there isn't a shiny hero theme anymore. We hear a BRAAAAAAMMMM that shatters the IMAX theater :D ...alright I can live with that.
> But? What made superheroes so great?? - Was it not also the great music that came with 'em?? Superman, Spider-Man, Batman (that crazy Pulp Fiction-like theme :D)
> 
> We gotta get oldskool, fellas!




You make a great point about what _*would*_ have been possible if everyone knew beforehand the MCU was going to be such a smash success.

But you have to make some allowances for the production process of these movies.

The best ever "franchise score" perhaps in film history is Howard Shore's work on LOTR. But Shore had the advantage of having all three movies laid out for him before he even began. He could stick a hint of the "White Tree" theme when Boromir talks to Aragorn in _Fellowship_ and not pay that off until two movies later when Pippin finally arrives in Minas Tirith in _Return Of The King.
_
To compare, John Williams didn't write a theme for Vader until Empire Strikes Back. And Jack Sparrow's big theme is in Dead Man's Chest (iirc?). The franchises eventually became about those characters but it's not super clear when you look at the first movies.


----------



## AR

Rctec said:


> Really?!? Which of Klaus' themes in Pirates are the memorable one's?


He does not know you wrote the themes 
What happened to you and Klaus, anyways? Are you still hanging around from time to time? Seems like when he left your studio complex, there did not happen any collaboration anymore.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I often think and remember how the great old days were, but maybe it is just my own perception thinking that things from the past are better?



Thanks for sharing Alexander. I'd recommend a youtube clip with Jochen Malmsheimer, "Das Wurstbrot" (Früher war alles besser. 

Seriosuly though, I wonder since quite some time now, in what way it could be empirically described how music / film, and we have to add games now to the segment as well, have changed along perhaps the same lines that social-political changes took place, say in the past 20 years.

To make it crisp and short, there is a clear right wing shift in many societies happening, and I am certain this reflects in music, and art in general as well. - You're german right? Live here? I have not lived here for nearly 2 decades, and since I am back, I mean.... WOW.... Florian Silbereisen and the likes dominate the best weekend times on TV entertainment, and the rest is yellow press level and what we knew from former times as Groschenromane, Mega-Kitsch produced for the Swabian Housewife, Rosamunde Pilcher and what have you not. -

As for Marvel, if I think back to my childhood, this was the stuff that was often consumed by those who lived in socially more challenging situations at this time in Germany, kinda lower working class entertainment. We considered this "american bullcrap" was produced for those already brain dead. (At least this was the view in my peer group at this time.) Honestly, even today, I think this is made for the brain dead, but transporting a message of course, and well, the message is still the same as it was 1941, when Captain America was first published. 

So after all Marvel is part of an american culture and their ideological messages, apart from being a >10 billion dollar franchise that is.


----------



## AR

NoamL said:


> You make a great point about what _*would*_ have been possible if everyone knew beforehand the MCU was going to be such a smash success.
> 
> But you have to make some allowances for the production process of these movies.
> 
> The best ever "franchise score" perhaps in film history is Howard Shore's work on LOTR. But Shore had the advantage of having all three movies laid out for him before he even began. He could stick a hint of the "White Tree" theme when Boromir talks to Aragorn in _Fellowship_ and not pay that off until two movies later when Pippin finally arrives in Minas Tirith in _Return Of The King._
> 
> John Williams didn't write a theme for Vader until Empire Strikes Back. And likewise Jack Sparrow's big theme is in Dead Man's Chest (iirc?). The franchises eventually became about those characters but it's not super clear when you look at the first movies.


I know. Back then, when Jon Favreau was filming Iron Man 1, they probably thought, we just try out and see. They didn't know, that a future huge success would've laid the stones for all the other Marvel movies.

But then again, so did not Chris Nolan with Batman Begins in 2004. Though they decided to stick with the music. Simply evolve the music, like the characters, who change with every coming film, too. As for Star Wars: Williams kept the themes for the opener and for the Force, which appears in all films. Vader was an evolving character in Episode IV. That's why his full potential (musically wise) wasn't revealed from the beginning. But I could bet, certain snippets and bits of the Emperial March are heard in episode IV, too, no?


----------



## G.R. Baumann

A general thought: 

Cannibalisation in Music is nothing new. Seventeenth- and eighteenth-century composers were working under "assembly-line conditions". Today in the film industry? Time? The conveyor belt is even faster now, is it not?

Between 1719 and 1757 Scarlatti wrote 555 Sonatas alone, mostly payed work for the aristrocratic class. 

They did not call it Temp-Music, but it was known as parody-techniques back then, and it was quite common. G.F. Handel was the master of this technique. Books were written about this, such as _The Indebtedness of Handel to Works by other Composers_ Sedley Taylor, 1906.


----------



## Markus S

roknardin said:


> Interesting video by Every Frame A Painting




That's a great documentary. At first I was a bit skeptical, because I believe music does not have to be memorable to be interesting, that is a thing from the romantic period and it certainly is very much illustrated in John Williams scores. As much as I like them they are VERY strongly inspired by classical composers such as Tchaikowski, Schostakowitsch or Holst.

But in the end I have to agree with the point of the video, yes, it's all played safe and yes, it all sort of sounds the same. Doesn't mean it's not well done or doesn't work,these are the best technicians of the world working, but still, it sort of sounds the same.

And it goes beyond Marvel - I was playing a track from Gladiator to my wife and she just couldn't believe it wasn't from Pirates of the Caribbean (a score we like both very much).

It is all playing it safe which also includes having always the same composers do the work. And beyond the music, it is always the same sort of story, the same sort of subject, even the same heros. To me the interesting stuff these days is going on in the TV shows. Really like the new Outcast series, also for the music. Or Banshee I thought was great.


----------



## Rctec

Markus S said:


> That's a great documentary. At first I was a bit skeptical, because I believe music does not have to be memorable to be interesting, that is a thing from the romantic period and it certainly is very much illustrated in John Williams scores. As much as I like them they are VERY strongly inspired by classical composers such as Tchaikowski, Schostakowitsch or Holst.
> 
> But in the end I have to agree with the point of the video, yes, it's all played safe and yes, it all sort of sounds the same. Doesn't mean it's not well done or doesn't work,these are the best technicians of the world working, but still, it sort of sounds the same.
> 
> And it goes beyond Marvel - I was playing a track from Gladiator to my wife and she just couldn't believe it wasn't from Pirates of the Caribbean (a score we like both very much).
> 
> It is all playing it safe which also includes having always the same composers do the work. And beyond the music, it is always the same sort of story, the same sort of subject, even the same heros. To me the interesting stuff these days is going on in the TV shows. Really like the new Outcast series, also for the music. Or Banshee I thought was great.


Actually, "Pirates" came after "Gladiator". Didn't do it on purpose. Honest. Sometime one forgets that one's used a phrase before, a hundred movies in. Sorry. "Pirates" was a rescue score, helping a friend out. Most themes where hastily written in one night. If you are that offended, I'll refund you for that theme...no good deed goes unpunished, it seems...


----------



## Fer

In any case i cant understand the final conclusion in this video. It finishes saying that film makers dont want to take any risk. They want “safe musical solutions” for the movies. But is this making any sense from a comercial point of view? Is anyone not going to see the film because the music is making his own great voice inside of the film? If star wars as a movie, was enhaced greately by the music why marvel or any other would not want that result for his franchises? Seriously if its true that this is a comercial calculated decision i really cant understand it.


----------



## Blackster

Rctec said:


> Actually, "Pirates" came after "Gladiator". Didn't do it on purpose. Honest. Sometime one forgets that one's used a phrase before, a hundred movies in. Sorry. "Pirates" was a rescue score, helping a friend out. Most themes where hastily written in one night. If you are that offended, I'll refund you for that theme...no good deed goes unpunished, it seems...



To me that is an unbelievable statement of magnanimity!!! A score is always written to support a picture and the entertain the audience while they are watching the picture. And that is why a composer gets hired! If a score sounds partially similar or close to another one (which happens all the time and for different reasons) I wouldn't consider this a mistake done by the composer because he finished the job and he pleased his clients! 

BUT this kind of statement also shows that we are artists! And we want our art to be not only accepted but loved by others! It is absolutely natural and also important because this is part of the motivation why we spend way too many hours in the studio staring at screens! 

Again, this statement is very inspiring to me and so worth following and sharing! Hans, next time you are in Vienna I'd love to shake your hand, not just for that statement but for all your great scores I had the pleasure to listen to and learn from.


----------



## AR

Can't you simply skip the temp score, by delievering music before it's edited? 

A good friend of mine calls me every time before he starts to shoot anything and says, "...okay, I'm going to film a Horror movie about this and that..." and we talk about the instruments we're going to use in this film. Sometimes he says "I want that kind of thing like Marco Beltrami did", but that's it. I read the script and start to write music. By the time he's done with filming, I'm half way through with the score and he starts to edit to original music. The bad thing is, tracks get chopped off (often in the middle) and rework is needed for some cues, plus, you write much more music than ever needed in that project, but at least I don't have to worry about the temp. Works only with a director whose taste in music you know, though.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Rctec said:


> Actually, "Pirates" came after "Gladiator". Didn't do it on purpose. Honest. Sometime one forgets that one's used a phrase before, a hundred movies in. Sorry. "Pirates" was a rescue score, helping a friend out. Most themes where hastily written in one night. If you are that offended, I'll refund you for that theme...no good deed goes unpunished, it seems...



Sure that can happen and there is nothing wrong with it. But I don´t think that that whole thread is about that a composer do an impression of himself and I personally have no problem when a composer repurpose his own style or even ideas in one or another movie. Isn´t that a part of his own handwriting? Look when you think of James Horner how he practically took often note by note themes from lets say Star Trek II (Klingon Theme) and featured it in Aliens (Ripleys Rescue) and even more of other of his movies but it is his handwriting, isn´t it?
What I think is that the music in blockbuster genre movies sound practically all the same because this music has no "handwriting" anymore which is aimed to the movie. In the old days you heard sometimes just 3 notes of a theme and you knew what the composer PLUS which movie it was (there are plenty of those examples). This changed a lot for me. I couldn´t tell by the music which is nowadays in such movies what composer did the soundtrack and what movie it is from and I am a composer by myself and my aural perception is not the worst I think. Maybe I should then listen more to this music? I am not sure
Look at least for me a major reason why that is because there are always the same reduced harmonies with the same chord progressions over and over again which contributes of course to the thing that "everything" sounds so similiar and often the same. But I would never blame the composers for that, they do their job and do what the studio and producers tell them to do so. So when the studio wants a Zimmer impression, you (not you of course) do it or you leave the field and another one does the job. And this is nothing new at all. But what is new is the large proportion in scale which affects the whole filmmusic for fantasy / action / sci-fi movies in hollywood. Besides all of that: I don´t believe that modern Blockbusters tell good stories anymore. It is that bigmac syndrom. Fire and forget launch.


----------



## galactic orange

NoamL said:


> The best ever "franchise score" perhaps in film history is Howard Shore's work on LOTR. But Shore had the advantage of having all three movies laid out for him before he even began. He could stick a hint of the "White Tree" theme when Boromir talks to Aragorn in _Fellowship_ and not pay that off until two movies later when Pippin finally arrives in Minas Tirith in _Return Of The King._


I don't mean to detract from the discussion, but just damn. Hearing the "White Tree" theme bubble up a bit in Fellowship makes me tingly. We need more of this intertwining of themes over related films. I realize, however, that the puzzle pieces don't always fit together to make this possible.


----------



## handz

Modern OSTs suck, I thought that it is a well known fact now... weaving emotions instead of strong melodies and themes, how and why is this happening? Still not got it, why any movie studio would insist on this? Everyone know Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, E.T. (hah, ok John Williams is the God, we all know it)The Last of the Mohicans, Dragonheart, Psycho, Pink Panther.... And it makes movies but also the whole Franchise memorable. So why suddenly they try to make music so bland and non thematic, makes no sense to me. 

(I know, there are still a good scores... but the overall trend is one big meh for the past 6+ years)


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

handz said:


> Modern OSTs suck, I thought that it is a well known fact now... weaving emotions instead of strong melodies and themes, how and why is this happening? Still not got it, why any movie studio would insist on this? Everyone know Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, E.T. (hah, ok John Williams is the God, we all know it)The Last of the Mohicans, Dragonheart, Psycho, Pink Panther.... And it makes movies but also the whole Franchise memorable. So why suddenly they try to make music so bland and non thematic, makes no sense to me.
> 
> (I know, there are still a good scores... but the overall trend is one big meh for the past 6+ years)



There was this other thread a while ago about if that modern filmmusic relies more on sound than on melodic motifs. But yes there is indeed a progression towards less melodic leitmotifs in modern scores.


----------



## Kony

Apologies if this point has already been made BUT I think the main problem these days is what I call attention deficit movie making for blockbusters compared to say blockbusters of the 80s. Modern blockbusters tend to have one action scene leading to the next with little or no emotional pacing. As a consequence, modern action music can be likened to foley work as opposed to offering anything thematic. Has anyone noticed this isn't true for TV, if one looks at Ramin Djawadi's work on Game of Thrones for example? The case can be made that modern TV series allow for more character development and therefore musical themes which underpin this. Djawadi's themes on GoT are so obvious per character/family etc and work so well perhaps because they are given the time and space to develop as perhaps an earlier poster mentioned about Shore's Tree theme in LOTR - again because that was a trilogy and had time and space to develop. I've noticed how the GoT themes have developed and adapted over the years (thinking of Danaerys theme in particular at the end of season 6 as a particular example). Modern movie blockbusters don't seem to allow that space - it's more about fast paced action and merchandise etc these days. Modern society is too hyper and the music in blockbusters reflects this methinks. I'm also struggling to think of the last memorable movie theme from anything I've seen over the last few years....


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

AR said:


> I mean, Bear wrote a REAL, memorable theme for SHIELD, which was at the time part of the Avengers in the first movie.



where?


----------



## storyteller

I believe much of this relies on the Director. With every memorable score that has been mentioned, there is also a Director innately tied to the composer. Spielberg and Williams. This wasn't because one was a great Director and the other a great composer. It is because both are incredible storytellers. The same can be said for James Cameron and the late James Horner. Both are storytellers at heart. You will likely find many of the great directors are also wonderful musicians themselves - having a vision for the sound before a composer has even been selected. The Nolan brothers and Zimmer is another example. 

As in any field, a person can be extremely talented in his craft. But just because one carpenter is technically more skillful than another does not mean great art will be made. Song is art. Film is art. But both are stories being told. If an artist studied a DaVinci painting and could replicate every technique at will, another DaVinci it does not make. DaVinci expressed something innately personal to him from within. He used the tools in his toolbelt to bring that expression to life. That is why his art speaks to people in ways "copycats" can never replicate. Coming back full circle, imho, modern OSTs have fallen victim to the copycat syndrome and have lost emphasis on storytelling...desiring only the surface rather than depth. At fault would be the Directors more than any other in the film process. A memorable score is an indicator of a director who is a great storyteller and who has found a like-minded storyteller with a skill set of a composer.


----------



## AR

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> where?


Shield appeared in Avengers Part 1


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

AR said:


> Shield appeared in Avengers Part 1



but Bear's theme appeared in Avengers?


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## AlexanderSchiborr

You know guys I was watching Dark Shadows recently with my other hald. And I really didn´t expect that I would like the movie but I did. And I am fair: The movie is here and there funny. Not maybe a masterwork of Tim Burton for me, but totally acceptable for me. With the Score which is of course done by D. Elfman I had very mixed feelings. At some points there were cues which was totally himself and at some other spots I had the impression that somebody told him: Hey..now we need some modern filmmusic impression like from this and that movie and you can hear that in every note that this is not him PLUS that he is not connected that kind of style. And it feels not good to me when a great composer like Elfman who has really some serious chops gets reduced to do something he doesn´t like to do even more when you know how good he is. But that is just my opinion here. Don´t know if somebody else noticed that.


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## sluggo

Perhaps this method for a solution...
1. Agents for composers can cite legal precedence (Warner Bros having to settle for knocking off temp score) as reason for composers to not sign any contract with the 'indemnity' clause (that's the clause that states the composer is responsible for plagiarism and not the studio. Because in these cases, it's the director/editor/studio that is forcing the composer to plagiarize). I believe any good agent is already negotiating the indemnity clause out of a contract. 

2. Then the studios, publishers, and composers start suing the living daylights out of every movie and scene that has temp-ripped. Settlements will snowball. The legal precedence here includes the Pharrel/Thicke debacle where they lost their case to the Marvin Gaye estate. 

3. Directors and editors will then be advised by the studios' legal departments that they cannot use a temp score when working with a composer. 

Of course this may backfire and the result will be the total elimination of composers, and films will just license tracks from other films. (Already happening).

Good timez.


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## AlexRuger

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> but Bear's theme appeared in Avengers?



Nope


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## Replicant

Fer said:


> In any case i cant understand the final conclusion in this video. It finishes saying that film makers dont want to take any risk. They want “safe musical solutions” for the movies. But is this making any sense from a comercial point of view? Is anyone not going to see the film because the music is making his own great voice inside of the film? If star wars as a movie, was enhaced greately by the music why marvel or any other would not want that result for his franchises? Seriously if its true that this is a comercial calculated decision i really cant understand it.



People go to see the movie for the movie and the actors; really, that's all there is to it. The MCU is already beginning to collapse under its own weight, though. Myself and many people I know have already admitted that they tire of superhero films and TV shows; many have not even seen several of the newer MCU movies -- there is simply too much to keep up with. I think Guardians of The Galaxy owes much of its success to it being different. It's this fantasy, "Space Opera" that has a Marvel feel without any costumed crusaders.

Star Wars was greatly enhanced by the music simply because it makes watching the movie that much more enjoyable and memorable. "Duel of The Fates" sealed the battles between Qui-Gon and Darth Maul, Obi-Wan and Anakin firmly in my mind. Anytime I hear that theme in a Star Wars video game or my Spotify playlist, I'm transported back to my 13-year-old self, sitting beside my dad in the theater, completely in awe of "Revenge of The Sith's" big showdown. I struggle to remember the details of the final battle in Avenger's, though.

I have a friend who has never seen a James Bond film, but he knows every note of the theme. The music is something that can extend the cultural impact of a film, game, or TV show to people who have never even experienced the media whence the music originates. A good movie can be made without eye-popping special effects, memorable music, or the best sets, but a truly great movie will pay heed to every detail.


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## Mike Fox

Is this bad decision making on the directors end? I mean, is the temp music so good that the director doesnt even want a composer like Elfman or Debney to try something different? What the hell?

Btw, memorable themes are definitely missing from a lot of movies nowadays, not just superhero films. I cant even remember the last time I bought a soundtrack. Nothing has really stood out to me lately. In fact, I've been enjoying compositions from forum members a lot more than what I've been hearing in movies recently.


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## AlexRuger

Soundtracks that have really stood out to me lately (i.e. the past couple of years):

Movies: Sicario, The Theory of Everything, Ex Machina, Under The Skin, How to Train Your Dragon (all of them), Gone Girl, anything Thomas Newman, and yes, Interstellar (I felt this was a turning point for rctec's sound--he sort of "leveled up" here)

TV: Stranger Things, Mr. Robot, House of Cards (haven't watched loads of TV so there's probably more that I'm not aware of)

Games: Star Wars Battlefront, The Order: 1886, Abzu, Samorost 3, Anodyne, Fallout 4 (but I'm biased with that one). I think that games are the most interesting right now--tons of awesome composers doing really interesting stuff, from tiny indie games to huge AAA titles.

As I said earlier, there's lots and lots of great scores being made. You just have to dig. And my list is really the "obvious" stuff that lots of people are talking about. Can you really not find even one score you like from that list?


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## jononotbono

AlexRuger said:


> Soundtracks that have really stood out to me lately (i.e. the past couple of years):
> 
> Movies: Sicario, The Theory of Everything, Ex Machina, Under The Skin, How to Train Your Dragon (all of them), Gone Girl, anything Thomas Newman, and yes, Interstellar (I felt this was a turning point for rctec's sound--he sort of "leveled up" here)
> 
> TV: Stranger Things, Mr. Robot, House of Cards (haven't watched loads of TV so there's probably more that I'm not aware of)
> 
> Games: Star Wars Battlefront, The Order: 1886, Abzu, Samorost 3, Anodyne, Fallout 4 (but I'm biased with that one). I think that games are the most interesting right now--tons of awesome composers doing really interesting stuff, from tiny indie games to huge AAA titles.
> 
> As I said earlier, there's lots and lots of great scores being made. You just have to dig. And my list is really the "obvious" stuff that lots of people are talking about. Can you really not find even one score you like from that list?



I love loads of the music in your list. Don't forget Gravity. Getting back to Marvel, I recently watched the new X-Men film and thought the music was perfect for the film (when I could hear it of course). Isn't that what matters? Whatever works? Man, there's so much great music being written today. Well, I think so anyway.


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## Neifion

Japan is regularly cranking out great music in the video game and anime arenas.


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## Replicant

Neifion said:


> Japan is regularly cranking out great music in the video game and anime arenas.




A bit late to that party, Neifion, as we discussed it a few pages back 

Off topic, but your post reminds me: If you haven't seen the live performance of the FFXV soundtrack at Abbey Road, you really should.


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## Neifion

Replicant said:


> A bit late to that party, Neifion, as we discussed it a few pages back
> 
> Off topic, but your post reminds me: If you haven't seen the live performance of the FFXV soundtrack at Abbey Road, you really should.



Doh!


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## prodigalson

AlexRuger said:


> As I said earlier, there's lots and lots of great scores being made. You just have to dig. And my list is really the "obvious" stuff that lots of people are talking about.



Right, you don't even have to dig that much. Most of those movies you listed were major theatrical releases. I thought Under The Skin was one of the most chilling scores I've heard in a long time. (also available for purchase in full score as it happens)


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## sp_comp

I actually got chills when the Thor scene was replaced with the emotional music instead of the comical one


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## NoamL

Thor's sidekicks are some of the best characters in that movie!

(and Jaimie Alexander would have made a fantastic Wonder Woman... but what's done is done)


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## Andrajas

A respons to The Marvel Symphonic Universe video, some interesting stuff in there!


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## Mike Fox

AlexRuger said:


> Soundtracks that have really stood out to me lately (i.e. the past couple of years):
> 
> Movies: Sicario, The Theory of Everything, Ex Machina, Under The Skin, How to Train Your Dragon (all of them), Gone Girl, anything Thomas Newman, and yes, Interstellar (I felt this was a turning point for rctec's sound--he sort of "leveled up" here)
> 
> TV: Stranger Things, Mr. Robot, House of Cards (haven't watched loads of TV so there's probably more that I'm not aware of)
> 
> Games: Star Wars Battlefront, The Order: 1886, Abzu, Samorost 3, Anodyne, Fallout 4 (but I'm biased with that one). I think that games are the most interesting right now--tons of awesome composers doing really interesting stuff, from tiny indie games to huge AAA titles.
> 
> As I said earlier, there's lots and lots of great scores being made. You just have to dig. And my list is really the "obvious" stuff that lots of people are talking about. Can you really not find even one score you like from that list?



I actually like a lot of that stuff! I was just being cranky.


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## dgburns

I wish people would walk a mile in the shoes before cutting down scores. When I watched that video showing the before and after, it just reminded me of the fact we have choices and decisions we make while scoring. Temp won't go away, and it's sometimes useful. I actually cringed a little bit watching that video because I know from my past travels what exactly goes through the mind of the one responsible for the final score. 
I can't explain exactly why, but there's this point in your life when you stop looking in the rear view and just focus on the road ahead. Best way to push off temp is to engage the director, and in my experience, many will be happy to see you thinking about alternatives. This is not a one way street where you HAVE to cop the temp in order to finish the gig. Editors slag in temp because they want something to cut with, if they had an alternative, they would welcome that. I think the notion that directors and editors don't trust composers, or think them somehow below them is not the issue. They are just trying to make the best film they can. 
@Rctec , just one opinion here, not worth much, but I seriously wish you didn't feel the need to defend Pirates, or Gladiator, or whatever.


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## jacobthestupendous

Andrajas said:


> A respons to The Marvel Symphonic Universe video, some interesting stuff in there!


I guess that settles that.


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## Gerhard Westphalen

Andrajas said:


> A respons to The Marvel Symphonic Universe video, some interesting stuff in there!




I'm not sure how much validity there is to the part about the short samples driving compositional decisions. HZ at that point had his own library which could produce convincing longs and he knew exactly the players he was writing for and that it would get recorded. I think it was more of an aesthetic choice.


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## dgburns

Andrajas said:


> A respons to The Marvel Symphonic Universe video, some interesting stuff in there!




I don't like this video.


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## NoamL

I don't, either.

It's always welcome when people outside our profession study film music but for some reason they *always* gravitate towards the plagiarism/copycat/influence accusations ("Jaws is Dvorak!").

Really, really sick of hearing about it. They delight in finding "connections" to the canonized classical works, but this does nothing to explain _why_ different kinds of music evoke different moods. The point of "source hunting" is to say "See, that score was good, therefore it must have a canon source." The general "Beethoven will make your baby smarter" culture has deified a handful of composers so hard that now people assume if you hear music and it's good, it must somehow be stolen.


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## re-peat

NoamL said:


> (...) when people outside our profession (...)




Doesn’t just happen _outside_ your profession, Noam. V.I.’s archive is littered with posts by strange and creepy fauna being oh so pleased with itself having discovered a certain thematic link between a piece of film music and a classical piece (or between one classical piece and another).

And I don’t think that _“It’s a good, therefore it must be stolen”_ is the prime drive of these people either — most of them couldn’t recognize quality music even if you present it to them in a brown paper bag with the words ‘quality music’ written on it —, no, I believe it’s that strange (but, granted, human) urge of non-talents and mediocrities to try and bring everything (especially that which is considered ‘great’) down to their level.

It’s the ignorant, untalented and coward’s way of dealing with something much greater than themselves: unable to recognize it (let alone, appreciate it), they engage in that petty obsession of theirs of wanting to expose imperfection — at least, what their small minds perceive as imperfection anyway — in it.

Being exceptionnal — ‘out-standing’ — is more of a curse than a blessing in this world. Completely surrounded as you are by hordes of insignificant, envious insects who, rather than be grateful for all the beauty you give them, only want to drag you down in the hope of being able to reveal you as one of them.

_


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## Vischebaste

^^^
SACHA BARON COHEN REVEALS NEW COMEDY CHARACTER!


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## Replicant

My favourite part of that video, is how I was arguing with someone a couple pages back who claimed that John Williams' melodies are _literally_ made of magic and no one else can possibly be blessed with this melodic gift. Then, right at the beginning of that video, we see how the Star Wars theme (Williams' most iconic piece) is very similar to older film music that was used as a temp.

Lol


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## mc_deli

TL;DR
All film scores are unoriginal
All media composers are plagiarists
John Williams can write a tune and knows how to use a good reference
"Epic" as-we-know-it music dominates modern scores because perc and brass stab samples are the easiest to make
Hans Zimmer is a pioneer and knows how to put a team together

...these two videos were great ...but I am back to the shades of grey and questions of artistic integrity ...the Fury Road and Drive Angry clips made me squirm... just as much as Blurred Lines and Viva Vida... and just as much as a lot of the Rolling Stones back catalogue...


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## Fer

I think that....
One thing is being influenced.
Another thing is plagiarism.
Another one is overusing cliches (high notes on strings for drama moments) instead of trying different things.
Having influences is ok. Everyone is influenced. Plagiarism is not ok. And cliches are ok but they are boring, at least when you as a listener are also a composer...


AlexRuger said:


> As I said earlier, there's lots and lots of great scores being made.


Yes of course...Gustavo Santaolalla soundtracks come to my mind also. He can create unique atmospheres; Iñarritu´s Babel could have been scored just with high sustained strings considering the movie... but no, this film maker choosed this unique approach of Santaolalla. And in this way the music has a deeper impact on the film.


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## bbunker

Gar. I don't understand why these kinds of videos exist. Well, I do. It's about making the author of the video (and presumably his or her circle who follows their particular worldview on art and craft) feel a sense of entitlement for their preference. Something along the line of 'I don't like this, but I'm RIGHT in not liking it because of these things.'

The 'computers have made film music all sound the same' argument is complete and utter nonsense. For one thing, the motivation behind the argument is transparent - the author of the film prefers earlier scores, and so he starts from the premise 'these scores are bad' and looks to justify that premise. If the premise were reversed, you could use exactly the same reasoning. 'Look at these golden-era composers; all they had to work with at the time were pianos, and of course pianos are better at singing line than they are at reflecting the rich staccatos of a full orchestra. This is why their inferior scores were empty of rich full staccatos.' The only thing to take away from this reasoning is that technology has a big impact on how people make art. Which should be patently obvious. It's like moaning about how accessible Bach's chorales and chorale preludes were with the development of moveable type.

Speaking of Bach, the 'Film Music as Classical Plagiarism' thing is obnoxious. Because - again - it starts from the position that film music is inferior and tries to justify it by pointing at borrowing. So Star Wars is a synthesis of Korngold, Westerns, and Holst? First of all, No S***. Now, if only there were other synthesists in musical history who we could look at to see how to judge musical syntheses - like, say BACH? His Passacaglia and Buxtehude's (BWV 562 and BuxWV 161) clearly fell from the same tree, to put it kindly. You can go through and literally draw parallel lines between Buxtehude's variation sets and Bach's. I don't hear the mobs grinding poles to sharp points over Bach's borrowing. I don't hear the torches being doused in kerosene over Bizet's 'borrowing' of the Gounod Symphony - and since Bizet follows the whole structure of Gounod's symphony, couldn't you say that it's his temp track for the work? (and FFS - Bizet's Symphony follows the Gounod like a glove for essentially the entire course of a SYMPHONY, not some puny little main title sequence.) And that dramatic turn filigree that Horner 'borrowed' from Rachmaninov? Probably lifted from Liszt's Symphonic Poems. Do you hear the Charging powder filling those muskets? No, of course not - because these are 'great' works, and great works are allowed to borrow. Or...maybe it's just that we look at synthesis, of combining musical ideas of previous generations, for what it is in those situations. Bizet stole Gounod's Ferrari, but he drove it better - which is why Bizet's gets played and Gounod's doesn't. Unless you buy a lot of Chandos records. But anyway.

The closing sequence (I'll sum up - 'ooooh Hans Zimmer killed film music with samples and computers and blah blah') is absurd. The video points at Hans' description of making a work, and how he at some point 'played every note' as a 'gotcha moment' - "Look, everybody - he played this notes on his little keyboard and that's why film music is bad.' I have literally no idea what perfection would be on whatever 'axis of playing in notes' would be. I literally have no idea why using technology to better match the narrative of a visual work is bad, or why any other technique would be better from the standpoint of the finished product. I'm also troubled by the elitist attitude of the video and it's author - what's with 'pop shaming' Hans? The shot of 'Video Killed the Radio Star' feels like a cheap ploy to delegitimize his work. It's cheap, it's sniping, it's elitist, and it just feels icky.

Beyond all that, it's all too familiar. Saying that Hans destroyed film music feels exactly the same as having said in the early twentieth century that Wagner had destroyed concert music. Wagner's expansion of the chromatic palette, and the liberation of dissonance, would eventually lead to Schoenberg, and Serialism, and Integral Serialism. Sure. But pointing at Wagner and saying "it's all HIS fault" just ignores the zeitgeist of the time.

The 'Hans and Computers are killing music' argument just has to ignore and marginalize vast sections of contemporary composition. Reich? Riley? Glass? Stockhausen? Varese? To get to the point of this film, we have to forget all of this. We have to forget that Ligeti's tone masses could not exist without the Elektronische Musik of Stockhausen. We have to pretend that repetitive structures in minimalist process music of the '80's has nothing to do with computers and technology. We have to pretend that there isn't such a thing as an artistic zeitgeist.

It's perfectly fine to prefer certain music over others. Certain composers over others. Certain ways of writing over others. Sure. Trying to legitimize those preferences with this 'empiricism-lite'? I call BS.


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## Jono

I saw this at airport and considered it during 16 hours of in-flight films.

Whilst I agree there is a prevailing trend of non-memorable melodies, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as some suggest. 

An interesting aside, I gave feedback on a big budget first cut recently which still has temp track. 
I dont know whos scoring it (although it leans in a certain direction and I'd be thrilled if it goes that way) but I suggested that there is a need for memorable melody which can be bent and developed throughout to increase the emotional buy in. 

Just thought it was worth mentioning that some studios, directors and producers are open to suggestions, whether or not they buy into it or not is another matter.


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## PMortise

re-peat said:


> ...Being exceptionnal — ‘out-standing’ — is more of a curse than a blessing in this world. Completely surrounded as you are by hordes of insignificant, envious insects who, rather than be grateful for all the beauty you give them, only want to drag you down in the hope of being able to reveal you as one of them._


Well, what can I say - except I _do_ get lonely sometime!


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## patrick76

AlexRuger said:


> Soundtracks that have really stood out to me lately (i.e. the past couple of years):
> 
> Movies: Sicario, The Theory of Everything, Ex Machina, Under The Skin, How to Train Your Dragon (all of them), Gone Girl, anything Thomas Newman, and yes, Interstellar (I felt this was a turning point for rctec's sound--he sort of "leveled up" here)
> 
> TV: Stranger Things, Mr. Robot, House of Cards (haven't watched loads of TV so there's probably more that I'm not aware of)
> 
> Games: Star Wars Battlefront, The Order: 1886, Abzu, Samorost 3, Anodyne, Fallout 4 (but I'm biased with that one). I think that games are the most interesting right now--tons of awesome composers doing really interesting stuff, from tiny indie games to huge AAA titles.
> 
> As I said earlier, there's lots and lots of great scores being made. You just have to dig. And my list is really the "obvious" stuff that lots of people are talking about. Can you really not find even one score you like from that list?


Nice list. I especially agree with Interstellar and The Theory of Everything. I would add Morricone's The Hateful Eight and to specify one by Thomas Newman, I thought the theme for Saving Mr. Banks was beautiful.


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## gsilbers

let me see if i get this argument.. so its the biggest franchise in history that doesnt have a "good" melody like a few movies from the 70s/80s... and for some reason it needs to be memorable so poeple can whistle it.. because THAT makes a good film score. not the part that billions of poeple enjoy those movies and the music helps it. 

the counter argument is that those famous old (good) scores are rehash from older scores and now with computers you now make a mesh and wall of sounds and so it rehashes similar computer scores to end up with a memorable mesh of sounds you cant whistle. 

and.. there is nothing in between. 

OK.


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## Replicant

gsilbers said:


> let me see if i get this argument.. so its the biggest franchise in history that doesnt have a "good" melody like a few movies from the 70s/80s... and for some reason it needs to be memorable so poeple can whistle it.. because THAT makes a good film score. not the part that billions of poeple enjoy those movies and the music helps it.



The Iron Man and Thor example demonstrates that much of the score is inconsequential to film — it's just background noise to most people.


----------



## NoamL

Fer said:


> One thing is being influenced.
> 
> Another thing is plagiarism.
> 
> Having influences is ok. Everyone is influenced. Plagiarism is not ok.



No argument there!

But using the word "plagiarism" just raises all kinds of silly questions about very talented people. Like: when Williams wrote this, does anyone here think he was "intending to not get caught"?
_
_

100/100 times it's the directors who are insisting on this approach. In many cases, _*they're*_ the ones who are so musically illiterate they think a blatant copy can get away with and not be recognized.

Here's what gets my goat though. The people who smugly emphasize the source connections in these scores are implying in a sneaky sideways way that they believe Williams would be *powerless to write Christmas music* without leaning over and copying off Tchaikovsky's homework. And more generally, that all media composers don't have an idea in their heads they didn't take from the classical canon.

Here's Williams a decade later, working with the exact same director (Chris Columbus) only this time....



Beautiful, perfect music that suits the movie.






Also, I agree with @bbunker:



bbunker said:


> Bizet stole Gounod's Ferrari, but he drove it better - which is why Bizet's gets played and Gounod's doesn't.



If you take a good idea and make it better, guess what, you have the better idea.

Such as:



You listen to this and you think, "Wow, Hanson did a poor job copying Williams"  that sneaky 3/8 bar Williams uses just adds so much breathlessness and excitement, and you don't realize it until you hear the original very metered, even plodding version.


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## David Story

NoamL said:


> No argument there!
> 
> But using the word "plagiarism" just raises all kinds of silly questions about very talented people.



What's It Take To Be Original? 25% unique, 50%, 100%?

In my experience it's about 10%. Any more than that and you run into the issues that Piet eloquently describes of alienation. The most original and influential artists utilize similar ideas and techniques as their contemporaries much of the time. But once or twice in each motive, or progression, or rhythm, they will do the unexpected and personal. And it will resonate. That's what the Marvel video accurately portrays, a lack of originality. The brand of originality that inspires future generations. 

That requires outstanding melody and technique. Everything else gets lost in time.

Williams and Goldsmith both were inspired by Hanson. They copied sections and added their own original touches. And created works of art that still work decades later. But that was a golden age of music. Today we're in a golden age of sound design. There are still melodic cues in blockbuster films. But the focus is on technique and technology. I love superhero movies in a theater- they sound amazing! But there's nothing to inspire, except maybe to buy gear


----------



## Kralc

AlexRuger said:


> I think that games are the most interesting right now--tons of awesome composers doing really interesting stuff, from tiny indie games to huge AAA titles.



Absolutely. Just thinking about Austin Wintory's Assassin's Creed 6, which is essentially Ubisoft's tentpole franchise, their "Civil War", their "Batman v Superman". And it's a refined Chamber Music styled score.


----------



## re-peat

“Holiday Flight” from 'Home Alone' is _a pastiche_, Noam. Fully intended as such, as disclosed by the composer who OF COURSE hoped that its audiences would also know Tchaikovsky’s 'Trepak' from "The Nutcracker". Intimate familiarity with both pieces is, in fact, half the fun here.
(Only a totally ignorant imbecile would ever use that cue to substantiate a plagiarism accusation with.)

The ‘Superman’ march is also often used when the undergrowth of musical communities wants to accuse Williams of plagiarism. They say Williams ripped off Richard Strauss. And yes, there is a thematic connection between ‘Superman’ and ‘Also sprach Zarathustra’. But rather than lazy plagiarism, it’s Williams linking, through Strauss, to Nietszche, where the ‘superman’ idea comes from.

Also in Superman, there’s “March Of The Villains” — one of my all time favourite Williams compositions — in which he, with baffling confidence and arrogance even, out-Prokofievs Prokofiev. And again: familiarity with the object of admiration (Prokofiev) increases the enjoyment of hearing how passionately and masterfully Williams loves and admires.

There’s also a few moments in "Scherzo For Motorcycles" (from ‘Last Crusade’) where Williams pays hommage to Berlioz. If you know your classics, you hear it and you smile, and Williams _wants us to._ (Again, he never tried to hide the Berlioz reference.) But if you haven't got a clue about any of this, you can only replicate the choir of morons who cry ‘Plagiarism!’ of course.

“Jaws” has many Stravinskyian moments, yes. So what? Beethoven has many Mozartean moments and both Beethoven and Mozart would be absolutely nowhere without Haydn and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach.

And let’s not get started with Stravinsky whose work literally bulges with borrowed phrases, uncamouflaged inspirations, and stylistic appropriations of composers that came before him.
Sadly, people hear all that and accuse the composer of blatant theft (partly for reasons explained in my previous post, I guess), when in fact, what the composer did, was to soak up all the music which he liked, assimilated its characteristics, put everything through the blender of his own personality and wrote music with it that _only he could have written_. And that is the key to all of this: music that only he could have written.

And it’s the exact same thing with Williams. 99,99% of Williams' best music is music _that only Williams could have written_. And it is recognizeable as such. (At least, if you’re equipped with enough brain matter to be able to recognize it.) Even if it uses an unoriginal and old-fashioned musical language, even if references earlier models, even if it occasionally borrows a musical mechanism or idea from other composers: the result is invariably music that can carry only one signature: that of Williams.

The Star Wars theme shares four notes with “King’s Row”, two of which are even phrased differently. Beyond that, both themes are entirely different and Williams develops his theme also completely differently. But that’s where you loose the idiots of course, all they can hear is those identical opening intervals and that’s enough for them to go into their silly and shameful “Thief!”-routine.

Same thing with those violins trills in the Hanson symphony. “E.T.’s Adventures On Earth” is a near 10 minute piece of stunning music that shares absolutely nothing with Hanson whatsoever, except for those exciting trills in the violins at the beginning. How ignorant, ill-disposed and ungrateful a fool does one have to be to reduce such a wonderful piece of music to a vulgar act of plagiarism?

In the whole of Williams’ work — several days of non-stop music (a fourth of which I rank among the better music of the 20th century) — there is ONE cue that sails perhaps a bit too closely to its template and that is “The Dune Sea Of Tatooine”. Given the staggering amount of work he had on his plate in those days and the limited amount of time to do it in (AND the superb quality of how all that work turned out to be), holding 'Tatooine''s indebtness to the opening of the 2nd part of 'The Sacre' against him, is totally misplaced and grossly indecent, if you ask me.

_


----------



## Fer

NoamL said:


> No argument there!
> 
> But using the word "plagiarism" just raises all kinds of silly questions about very talented people.
> .



When i posted that i regreted inmediately because i tought i was saying something obvious... anyway let me explain a bit. i think that we agree in everything.
I said that in deffense of John Williams regarding to the Korngold music issue. I have heard people saying that the John Williams plagiated Korngold.
I think that music is in this regard can be seen as a chess match. There are lots of different matches that are sharing the first four movements. But suddenly everything evolves in a whole different direction making the the whole game something unique. To me this is what is happening in the Williams/Korngold case. The author of the video said that Williams star wars theme was a pastiche of different materials. Thus he was suggesting that the theme is not as great as we think it is. Come on.. its something great and unique! Its absurd to pretend that music is not original because its influenced. To me saying the contrary is equal to not having any idea of what music is. Everyone is influenced.
But on the other hand, Its possible to plagiate something? Yes it is.
You can rip a whole theme. In the first video you can see it clearly with the titus soundtrack example. This is not like sharing the first four movements. Its cloning the whole thing with some minor changes. Altough i dont see this as a fault of the composer if he was hired to writte just the same temp music.


----------



## Fer

And btw, in those williams cases there is something that makes me think that "being influenced" is not the best word to explain it; as repeat said they are more like tributes and renditions to the great classics. Hommages of someone enough gifted to do this kind of things.


----------



## FriFlo

In my opinion, the thought of theft in music is a very difficult one and partly subjective. Mostly, people will consider a similar melody stolen. But is it really always the melody that makes a theme recognizable? Sometimes, it is! But - at least in film music - it is very often a combination of some of these: melody, rhythm, chord structure and orchestration devices.
Is the Jaws theme really so melodic, or is it rather a feeling, that gets painted through rhythmical and orchestrational ideas?
Aren't the intrumental and chordal colors not at least as important to Hedwigs theme, as the melody itself is?
Also, some people seem to underestimate the power of getting something hammered in your head! Is the music of a top 10 hit really as recognizable and unique compared to another less popular tune or didn't we just get bombarded with it often enough to know it very well? I doubt, the star wars main theme would be as well known, if the movies wouldn't have been as successful as they were. Of course, I don't want to challenge its quality, but Mr. Williams was certainly lucky with that movie, as he himself stated very often (as modes a guy he is)!
One particularly important idea in the first film link in this thread is the lack of opportunity for music to shine and do its job in the current movie industry. I am not willing to accept that there is nobody out there, who could do as well as Williams did. The problem is rather, that gifted composers won't make it in the film industry or they will adapt to what is expected of them. There is a lack of power, which composers (and certainly also other creative people) have in the film business today.
Lastly, let's not forget that there are quite a lot of people, who actually prefer the way of modern scoring! Ridley Scott comes to mind, who I mentioned in several film music related DVD-documentaries, that all he wants from is film composer is, that he should not write a symphony. That statement tells me a lot about him as director.  Arguably, the music popping out less means people will concentrate more on the film. So, people who say, they don't care for the quality of the music, if it serves the movie well, actually have a point. I can admit that, even if my opinion is contrary on this.


----------



## mac

Silvestris main Avengers theme is excellent, IMO.


----------



## mc_deli

re-peat said:


> “Holiday Flight” from 'Home Alone' is _a pastiche_, Noam. Fully intended as such, as disclosed by the composer who OF COURSE hoped that its audiences would also know Tchaikovsky’s 'Trepak' from "The Nutcracker". Intimate familiarity with both pieces is, in fact, half the fun here.
> (Only a totally ignorant imbecile would ever use that cue to substantiate a plagiarism accusation with.)
> 
> The ‘Superman’ march is also often used when the undergrowth of musical communities wants to accuse Williams of plagiarism. They say Williams ripped off Richard Strauss. And yes, there is a thematic connection between ‘Superman’ and ‘Also sprach Zarathustra’. But rather than lazy plagiarism, it’s Williams linking, through Strauss, to Nietszche, where the ‘superman’ idea comes from.
> 
> Also in Superman, there’s “March Of The Villains” — one of my all time favourite Williams compositions — in which he, with baffling confidence and arrogance even, out-Prokofievs Prokofiev. And again: familiarity with the object of admiration (Prokofiev) increases the enjoyment hearing how passionately and masterfully Williams loves and admires.
> 
> There’s also a few moments in "Scherzo For Motorcycles" (from ‘Last Crusade’) where Williams pays hommage to Berlioz. If you know your classics, you hear it and you smile, and Williams _wants us to._ (Again, he never tried to hide the Berlioz reference.) But if you haven't got a clue about any of this, you can only replicate the choir of morons who cry ‘Plagiarism!’ of course.
> 
> “Jaws” has many Stravinskyian moments, yes. So what? Beethoven has many Mozartean moments and both Beethoven and Mozart would be absolutely nowhere without Haydn and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach.
> 
> And let’s not get started with Stravinsky whose work literally bulges with borrowed phrases, uncamouflaged inspirations, and stylistic appropriations of composers that came before him.
> Sadly, people hear all that and accuse the composer of blatant theft (partly for reasons explained in my previous post, I guess), when in fact, what the composer did, was to soak up all the music which he liked, assimilated its characteristics, put everything through the blender of his own personality and wrote music with it that _only he could have written_. And that is the key to all of this: music that only he could have written.
> 
> And it’s the exact same thing with Williams. 99,99% of Williams' best music is music _that only Williams could have written_. And it is recognizeable as such. (At least, if you’re equipped with enough brain matter to be able to recognize it.) Even if it uses an unoriginal and old-fashioned musical language, even if references earlier models, even if it occasionally borrows a musical mechanism or idea from other composers: the result is invariably music that can carry only one signature: that of Williams.
> 
> The Star Wars theme shares four notes with “King’s Row”, two of which are even phrased differently. Beyond that, both themes are entirely different and Williams develops his theme also completely differently. But that’s where you loose the idiots of course, all they can hear is those identical opening intervals and that’s enough for them to go into their silly and shameful “Thief!”-routine.
> 
> As are those violins trills in the Hanson symphony. “E.T.’s Adventures On Earth” is a near 10 minute piece of stunning music that shares absolutely nothing with Hanson whatsoever, except for those exciting trills in the violins at the beginning. How ignorant, ill-disposed and ungrateful a fool does one have to be to reduce such a wonderful piece of music to a vulgar act of plagiarism?
> 
> In the whole of Williams’ work — several days of non-stop music (a fourth of which I rank among the better music of the 20th century) — there is ONE cue that sails perhaps a bit too closely to its template and that is “The Dune Sea Of Tatooine”. Given the staggering amount of work he had on his plate in those days and the limited amount of time to do it in (AND the superb quality of how all that work turned out to be), holding 'Tatooine''s indebtness to the opening of the 2nd part of 'The Sacre' against him, is totally misplaced and grossly indecent, if you ask me.
> 
> _


Devil's advocate here: that's all very well, but if plenty of these classical examples were still in copyright and not in the public domain, then said composer would be in the dock along with Pharrell and Thicko. Or, more likely, the film composer would have written something (more) different.

In music, homage, influence and plagiarism are all pretty much the same to me. We don't have music without copying others first. They end up being legal definitions rather than artistic. I don't think the definitions are worth defending. I think the artistic outcome is. 

So, er, they are vulgar acts that have wonderful emotional thrust... a bit like...


----------



## re-peat

If the utter insanity which made the Page and Pharrell/Thicke trials possible, had been rampant throughout music history, we wouldn't have _anything _to listen to today. Except some primeval drumming and a bit of lustful grunting.

_


----------



## NoamL

Fer said:


> I think that music is in this regard can be seen as a chess match. There are lots of different matches that are sharing the first four movements. But suddenly everything evolves in a whole different direction making the the whole game something unique.



That is a great way of putting it @Fer

If Wagner had been able to patent this







Then the world would never have got this






and this






and this






and this!






This is what the 2nd video was referring to when it cited Theodore Adorno saying leitmotifs exist "to interpret the meaning of the action for the less intelligent members of the audience" (by using musical gestures with longstanding associative effects). 

I mean yeah you can apply that viewpoint, but if you do it applies every bit as much in _Tristan und Isolde _or _Götterdämmerung_ as it does in _Jaws.  _


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## Baron Greuner

Now looking for a Primeveal Drumming and Lustful Grunting library asap!


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## Rodney Money

re-peat said:


> ...primeval drumming and a bit of lustful grunting.
> 
> _


JEEEZZZ DUDE, COPYRIGHT, MAN! You just gave away my next album title.


----------



## Rodney Money

mac said:


> Silvestris main Avengers theme is excellent, IMO.


Yes, I can definitely hum it and recognize it such as the small quote when Ant Man first sees the Avenger's Headquarters.


----------



## garyhiebner

galactic orange said:


> I totally agree. One of the things I love about Japanese films is that they know when NOT to use music. Also, Japanese music in general values placing silence as much as placing musical notes. The impact of a scene with no music is that much more powerful when it finally comes in. That being said, I do think the recent X-Men movie scores by both Henry Jackman and John Ottman had some great moments, recognizable themes, and some stand-out horn parts (but not nearly enough!).



Wow, this Marvel Symphonic Universe has caused quite a stir. But it's true. It's not down to the composers, but the lines of communications that go in in the making of the movie and requests put onto the composer. 

Galactic Orange, I'm intrigued about your suggestion of Japanese films and their use of music. Can you recommend any good ones to watch? I'm a huge Joe Hisaishi fan and his compositions for the Hayao Miyazaki films. Keen to hear your recommendations.


----------



## David Story

Rodney Money said:


> Yes, I can definitely hum it and recognize it such as the small quote when Ant Man first sees the Avenger's Headquarters.


I'm stoked that Silvestri is back for Avengers 3. He's the most melodic of the Marvel composers this century. Even school bands play Avengers Assemble. And Ant Man also has a nice retro-cool melody by Christophe Beck. There's a bit of progress!


----------



## Fer

NoamL said:


> If Wagner had been able to patent this


He couldnt! there is a chord that was used previously! 
This is a nice video about the so called Tristan chord btw:


----------



## David Story

Fer said:


> When i posted that i regreted inmediately because i tought i was saying something obvious... anyway let me explain a bit. i think that we agree in everything.
> I said that in deffense of John Williams regarding to the Korngold music issue."


Yes, I knew what you meant and posted in support. It's clear to people who know music history. 



re-peat said:


> ... 99,99% of Williams' best music is music _that only Williams could have written_. And it is recognizeable as such. (At least, if you’re equipped with enough brain matter to be able to recognize it.) Even if it uses an unoriginal and old-fashioned musical language, even if references earlier models, even if it occasionally borrows a musical mechanism or idea from other composers: the result is invariably music that can carry only one signature: that of Williams.
> _



In his diplomatic way Piet is saying something similar. Great composers take bits from other music and make it their own. Just like every other great artist. _Les Demoiselles d'Avignon_ is an homage to _The Bathers._ There's even a school of analysis that all art is repurposing of existing artifacts.

But that 10% of originality is hard to find in today's movies thanks to technology. Original ideas are easily tossed or avoided entirely. A little personality escapes, but without melody it wont survive long. JW being the best example of melody in film, he's still representing high musical quality.

It's ironic that the most melodic score in the Marvel Universe is on TV. Thanks Bear! There are composers with the gift and skill to write melodic score, music that has the potential to be memorable. That can give the audience the thrill of making the hero's theme their own, like the Canadians singing Superman or Spider-Man.


----------



## David Story

NoamL said:


> If Wagner had been able to patent this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> This is what the 2nd video was referring to when it cited Theodore Adorno saying leitmotifs exist "to interpret the meaning of the action for the less intelligent members of the audience" (by using musical gestures with longstanding associative effects).


Smart people like leitmotifs too! eg Stravinsky.


----------



## NoamL

Yes don't worry @Fer, I understood what you were saying.

@DavidStory Yes we agree... I guess the point here is, a critic can't call film music stupid, obvious or lowbrow without also accidentally tarring his beloved opera and ballet (and even symphonic) music with the same brush. I mean how "Show the action in the music" is the Firebird? Or the Egmont Overture? Or Debussy's Sunken Cathedral? Film composers didn't invent the idea of "music to picture."

Can't know for sure what Adorno was saying without context, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he just didn't respect film music because of some unfounded and snooty "high art" / "low art" distinction, hence the "No _real_ composer would write for film for any other than money reasons!" comment.

I think after a century of film nobody working in film needs to be worried about the question of whether film is art anymore. Question solved. Film is amazing art!


----------



## Patrick

NoamL said:


> Yes don't worry @Fer, I understood what you were saying.
> Can't know for sure what Adorno was saying without context, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he just didn't respect film music because of some unfounded and snooty "high art" / "low art" distinction, hence the "No _real_ composer would write for film for any other than money reasons!" comment.



As a student I was fascinated by Adorno's writings on fascism and the holocaust. I was shocked at how elitist and narrow-minded his writings on music where when I encountered them the first time. He has written some _really _nasty stuff about jazz and popular (afro-)american music while he was fascinated by the Neue Musik and atonal/serial stuff. This is rooted in his critique of "Kulturindustrie" and goes back to how music and popular culture played a major role in national socialist propaganda, so I generally get where he was coming from. But I feel that his upper class upbringing and general habitus as an intelectual had something to do with it, too ^^


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Phew. When I was at university, we knew the whole Kulturindustrie bit by heart ... it was all interesting and thought-provoking, which I guess is the whole point, but I've since learned that intellectuals truly don't have a clue about anything and are mainly just really, really mesmerized by their own thoughts.


----------



## RyanMcQuinn

I've also noticed that as technology has improved, melodies have been more frequently replaced by sound design in video games. I think this also has to do with developers and composers being afraid that if the loop points are identifiable, people will dislike it. Therefore, recognizable melodies are not safe choices.

As a lover of melody, I still get pumped up for the infectious melodies in "Fighting" by Uematsu in Final Fantasy 7:


Personally, I love when this loops because I get to hear it again! Also, as the fighting music for the game, this looping minute is heard over and over. Uematsu is just so good that it never gets old (to me anyway).

I'm close to finishing my first video game soundtrack. It's been a labor of love during nights while my family sleeps since May last year, and I'm not shying away from melody. If I'm lucky someone else will like it enough to follow suit. I do think that one way or another, the presence of memorable melodies in films and games will be cyclical.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

NoamL said:


> If Wagner had been able to patent this



If I may offer a few short thoughts, good to see that someone brought up Wagner in that context. 

Historically, he does not progress to a harmonious resolution, but, and this is so very important in context, it was exactly that resolution that was expected by the musical convention of this time. He broke with this convention! 

It was 1862 that the first rehearsals for Tristan's premiere started in Vienna. It turned out to be disastrous, and word spread quickly that Tristan was totally impossible to be performed. 1863 they stopped rehearsals.

It should take another two years before Tristan was premiered in Munich. Much more could be said, but I am sure most of you know the stories surrounding the History of performances and conductors to date.

x x x x​
Today I observe that we live in times of re-emerging hypernationalism, and I can not but wonder about some parallels. The meanwhile heavily overdosed and overused so called "epic" film music, I see as a reflection of the reinforced hypernationalism and of such nature is the entire marvel universe as well.

In post WWI Germany, it was Mendelssohn student Paul Hindemith, a Nazi defying composer (Mathis der Maler Symphony 1934 and opera 1938) and clearly, his cynical anti-Wagnerian opera (Nusch-Nuschi) who started to welcome the Russian neonationalism of Igor Stravinsky. 

x x x x​
In my very personal opinion, musicians carry a burden of great social responsibility. It is in that context when I say the following, one of these days, hopefully in the far away future, Hans Zimmer will not be around anymore, and personally, I shall remember him not for his work on The Dark Knight, Interstellar, Inception and the likes but.... 12 years a slave.... if you get my drift.


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## Baron Greuner

I'll take Primeval Grunting and Lustful Drumming too if it's also available.


----------



## Kejero

G.R. Baumann said:


> I shall remember [Hans Zimmer] not for his work on The Dark Knight, Interstellar, Inception and the likes



I will... Those scores may not have your classic hummable melodies, but they have an identity that's uniquely tied to their respective movies. The problem is that other people then think "hey, that's a cool *sound*, lets plaster it all over my own movie!" It may seem odd that HZ seems to "get away" with soundtracks that few people can hum, while every other contemporary composer that plays copycat is forgotten. But I know plenty of people who will instantly recognize "the sound" of Dark Knight, or Interstellar, which for me is a clear indication that there is more to "memorable" music than melodic ideas. If done right.

That said, I totally yearn for the return of kickass hummable old skool melodies in movies myself.


----------



## doctornine

Baron Greuner said:


> I'll take Primeval Grunting and Lustful Drumming too if it's also available.



But only if it's got MEGA horns


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## Replicant

doctornine said:


> But only if it's got MEGA horns



BWAAAAAAM (♫♫♫♫) _BWAAAAAAAAM_ (♫♫♫♫) _*BWAAAAAAAAAM*_


----------



## AR

Kejero said:


> I will... Those scores may not have your classic hummable melodies, but they have an identity that's uniquely tied to their respective movies. The problem is that other people then think "hey, that's a cool *sound*, lets plaster it all over my own movie!" It may seem odd that HZ seems to "get away" with soundtracks that few people can hum, while every other contemporary composer that plays copycat is forgotten. But I know plenty of people who will instantly recognize "the sound" of Dark Knight, or Interstellar, which for me is a clear indication that there is more to "memorable" music than melodic ideas. If done right.
> 
> That said, I totally yearn for the return of kickass hummable old skool melodies in movies myself.



I think Hans settled perfectly hummable scores in the 90s and beginning of 2000. Then, filmmakers started to make more "realistic" movies. That kind of forced him (maybe) creating more undergoing scores. Pirates, Gladiator, Cool Running, Broken Arrow,... and then again, there were "back then" more experimental scores like Black Hawk Down, Ring, that one Horror movie I don't remember the name right now, Hannibal,... so my conclusion is, it's pretty much producers/studios taste, mixed with what the director wants to express plus his personal choice or feel when looking at the first clips or reading the script. I would do the same


----------



## ghandizilla

Did someone see the Dan Golding's reponse to the Every Frame a Painting video ?



The problem lies upon what you choose to imitate, not upon imitation itself. Short notes everywhere are hard to hum, therefore hard to memorize. But it's easy to make convincing virtual instruments mock-ups with short notes and percussions. So they began to proliferate from the 90s onwards.


----------



## TGV

ghandizilla said:


> Did someone see the Dan Golding's reponse to the Every Frame a Painting video ?


"A theory" is indeed an appropriate nomer, although "random, unverified ideas intermingled with quotes and told with a calm voice to lend them status" would be just as suitable.

Counter argument: the early sound track from Miss Daisy was a synth one. You don't need short stabs to make a synth sound like a synth. So it isn't technology.

I hate these YouTube videos.


----------



## Parsifal666

Off the top of my head I can sing the first Captain America Copland-homage, Thor Dark World, Avengers Age of Ultron, and Thor Dark World. So I don't really sympathize with the video.


----------



## jononotbono

Just came across a third video. Not sure if it's been posted here yet...


----------



## tack

jononotbono said:


> Just came across a third video. Not sure if it's been posted here yet...


I hadn't seen it. Thanks for sharing.

The argument made in this video is that the problem with the Marvel symphonic universe is that they keep bringing in new composers who jettison any thematic material used by the previous composer(s). And if they'd just maintained some continuity, we would have memorable themes on par with the classics.

I disagree. Although continuity is arguably a necessary condition, it's not a sufficient one. I think the raw material is just less compelling than, as the obvious example, Star Wars. And continuity from movie to movie is one thing, but it's also important to have thematic continuity _within_ the movie. Variations of previously heard themes, repurposed motifs, developed over the course of the film, they all drive their way so far into our brains that we can't help but think they're catchy and natural by the time the credits roll.

I think this crucial aspect of the craft is lost, and combined with weak to no melodic catches in character themes, it really can't be any other way than to have acme, forgettable music.


----------



## Parsifal666

I think if we stack up MOST movie themes against one as iconic and memorable as Star Wars we will find the former suffering. Listen to Thor Dark World and Captain America: First Avenger and tell me you can't remember those themes.

The lack of continuity argument doesn't make it for me either, this isn't Star Wars (thank God) and this isn't a road that only returns one way. This is about individual personalities. For the Avengers I could see merit in the continuity thing, and I believe there actually is some crossover (I'm going to break out the soundtracks later to refresh my memory).

Or maybe I just adore those movies (and many of the soundtracks) and am being silly and defensive (but also kind of adorable).


----------



## storyteller

Parsifal666 said:


> I think if we stack up MOST movie themes against one as iconic and memorable as Star Wars we will find the former suffering. Listen to Thor Dark World and Captain America: First Avenger and tell me you can't remember those themes.
> 
> The lack of continuity argument doesn't make it for me either, this isn't Star Wars (thank God) and this isn't a road that only returns one way. This is about individual personalities. For the Avengers I could see merit in the continuity thing, and I believe there actually is some crossover (I'm going to break out the soundtracks later to refresh my memory).
> 
> Or maybe I just adore those movies (and many of the soundtracks) and am being silly and defensive (but also kind of adorable).


Not to make this about one specific movie, but out of all of the Marvel movies, Thor is a great example and also happens to be my absolute favorite Marvel movie and what I consider to be the best Marvel soundtrack of the lot. However, I think there was horrible continuity between the movies. Try to figure out where the memorable theme is on the first Thor's OST. It doesn't come up until "A New King" and pops back up in "Can you see Jane?" And while there are a few similar motifs that pop up in other tracks, it doesn't have the same feel as those two songs. Granted, I adore Patrick Doyle's work here and especially on Cinderella. But then Marvel chose to use Brian Tyler on Dark World.

I also think Brian is a great composer and love his work - and the Dark World soundtrack by itself is very good. But compare Thor 1 vs Thor 2 and they are very very different. My first thought when I watched Dark World was that the emotional pull of the soundtrack to the first movie was absent in the second. The first Thor has a certain romantic quality to the theme, which I personally really liked. However, that said, the song, "Thor, Son of Odin" in Dark World is a more iconic superhero theme... And perhaps that is what Marvel wanted. It is very similar to Thor's "Earth to Asgard" though the Dark World theme is done so in a more stereotypical superhero manner which is much different than in the first movie. But I think the greater issue here is if you asked most people to sing back the theme to Thor, it isn't easily recallable because there are at least 3 variants used throughout the 2 movies which becomes jelly in the brain... Hence, "I should know this..." as an answer when someone is asked to sing it back.

Just my 2 cents. I really like Patrick and Brian's music. Perhaps they'll respond if they have some time.

_Edited to clarify Thor isn't my favorite OST but is what I consider the best of the Marvel soundtracks to date..._


----------



## Parsifal666

I agree wholeheartedly, *storyteller*. But I love the first Thor as a movie (I can't recall a single thing about the music, sorry). I'm a huge Thor fan, been reading his comics since the 70s, and personally vote Dark World as a fine (and VERY fun movie).

I do love the DW soundtrack, but to listen to it all the way through can be a bit tiring for me. It's a bit like Wagner: bloody chunks provide a very happy, bombastic payback


----------



## NoamL

jononotbono said:


> Just came across a third video. Not sure if it's been posted here yet...




good video for sure. I don't understand why franchise composers don't work together a little more. Sure it can be limiting to write with someone else's thematic material... but we are all in service of the movie, right? and if you're working on a franchise like MCU that got off to a really great start with two great themes for Iron Man and Captain America, why not use them? Every single time Elfman used the Avengers theme in his Ultron score it was a great moment! And he had a very thoughtful theme that interacted perfectly with Silvestri's work (reminds me a little of how Shirley Walker's theme interacted so well with Elfman's own Batman theme).

Anyway, those are the exceptions... These Marvel movies are getting so schizophrenic in their scores, it's getting to the point that it's refreshing to hear a composer carry on their own work (like in Game of Shadows for instance) because it seems that's the only time we get continuity. I don't buy the argument that always comes up that "it's a new movie and we wanted the music to be darker" or "it's a new director and he had his own vision." The Harry Potter movies are a good example of how this hurts franchises in the long run. Williams laid out most of the themes the franchise would ever need in the first and third movies, then Doyle came in and had some very good ideas as well.... and... then Hooper and Desplat used practically none of the work from the first 4 films. At the end of the last Potter movie the score actually hauls out a bunch of Sorcerer's Stone tracks for nostalgia effect. Makes you wonder how those films woulda turned out if there had been consistent thematic development.


----------



## Parsifal666

NoamL said:


> "it's a new movie and we wanted the music to be darker" or "it's a new director and he had his own vision."



I've had to deal with both of these variables (and/or variations of) before, and they are indeed often part of the soundtrack process. It's ultimately up to the film makers, unless (for instance) you've got _such_ a repertoire (Phillip Glass), or are simply SO famous (Hans) that many (usually the lesser known) filmmakers will let you mostly just do your thing.

I've been rewatching my beloved MCU collection, and there are all kinds of fine themes there. Most people have had the Star Wars theme shoved down their collective throat for four decades, it's ridiculous to compare that to music that's well under one.


----------



## SillyMidOn

Parsifal666 said:


> I've had to deal with both of these variables (and/or variations of) before, and they are indeed often part of the soundtrack process. It's ultimately up to the film makers, unless (for instance) you've got _such_ a repertoire (Phillip Glass), or are simply SO famous (Hans) that many (usually the lesser known) filmmakers will let you mostly just do your thing.
> 
> I've been rewatching my beloved MCU collection, and there are all kinds of fine themes there. Most people have had the Star Wars theme shoved down their collective throat for four decades, it's ridiculous to compare that to music that's well under one.


Another thing is that with Star Wars we get the big opening credits with the music, but film-makers have pretty much got rid of those big opening credits these days. Thor The Dark World and Captain America First Avenger actually have really good main themes, but they are presented at the end of the movie, so the composer is not given this great calling card/platform at the start of the movie, which is a bit of a shame:



Here it is live:


----------



## Parsifal666

SillyMidOn said:


> Another thing is that with Star Wars we get the big opening credits with the music, but film-makers have pretty much got rid of those big opening credits these days. Thor The Dark World and Captain America First Avenger actually have really good main themes, but they are presented at the end of the movie, so the composer is not given this great calling card/platform at the start of the movie, which is a bit of a shame:
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is live:




The CA soundtrack is one of the ones I had in mind. It's a wonderful piece, Coplandesque but hey, nothing wrong with that, right?


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## SillyMidOn

Parsifal666 said:


> The CA soundtrack is one of the ones I had in mind. It's a wonderful piece, Coplandesque but hey, nothing wrong with that, right?


Nothing wrong with that at all, it's a fabulous piece. . 

I've just finished a transcription and midi mockup of the piece "Captain America" which is a distilled version of The Captain America March, which I want to tackle next... it's a bit trickier. Will put it on youtube at some point.

It doesn't help though that some genius at the record company decided that the Captain America March is only available to buy on the US itunes store as a bonus. So, if like me you live in Europe and buy the cd, there is no Captain America March.


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## Parsifal666

SillyMidOn said:


> Nothing wrong with that at all, it's a fabulous piece. .
> 
> I've just finished a transcription and midi mockup of the piece "Captain America" which is a distilled version of The Captain America March, which I want to tackle next... it's a bit trickier. Will put it on youtube at some point.
> 
> It doesn't help though that some genius at the record company decided that the Captain America March is only available to buy on the US itunes store as a bonus. So, if like me you live in Europe and buy the cd, there is no Captain America March.



It is a bummer, no doubt there. Hey I'd love to hear your mockup if you want to share it when to completed. I bought that soundtrack the day it came out, pre-order on Amazon. I love that trilogy to death. I thought Henry did a fine job on Winter Soldier and Civil War as well, especially the former.


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## SillyMidOn

Parsifal666 said:


> It is a bummer, no doubt there. Hey I'd love to hear your mockup if you want to share it when to completed. I bought that soundtrack the day it came out, pre-order on Amazon. I love that trilogy to death. I thought Henry did a fine job on Winter Soldier and Civil War as well, especially the former.


Well that is hilarious - we must have somewhat converging musical tastes, as the end credits theme for Winter Soldier is another piece I am transcribing/midi mocking-ing up-ing. I think for Jackman to get a piece with alternating 6/4 and 5/4 meter (well the first section anyway) into a super-hero film took some serious guts, and on top of that it really works, as such experiments can often sound stilted.

I'll pm you my "work in progress" for "Captain Mercia" ' it's almost done, needs a little tweaking here and there, before I post is publicly.


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## Parsifal666

I am very much a superhero fan, have dozens of comics subscriptions and love the movies. I've done a little work there as well musically, though not as much as I'd like to.

As for Henry, he received some (strangely) negative reviews regarding Civil War, but if you check out the entire album it's quite good, with a bit more subtlety than is typically found in the genre. it might be precisely that which people didn't like about it.

I must recommend the X-men Apocalypse soundtrack as well; Ottman not only brought the bombast but some excellent writing for voice and even some shades of serial composition. It's the best superhero soundtrack I've heard this year.


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## SillyMidOn

Parsifal666 said:


> I am very much a superhero fan, have dozens of comics subscriptions and love the movies. I've done a little work there as well musically, though not as much as I'd like to.
> 
> As for Henry, he received some (strangely) negative reviews regarding Civil War, but if you check out the entire album it's quite good, with a bit more subtlety than is typically found in the genre. it might be precisely that which people didn't like about it.
> 
> I must recommend the X-men Apocalypse soundtrack as well; Ottman not only brought the bombast but some excellent writing for voice and even some shades of serial composition. It's the best superhero soundtrack I've heard this year.


Thanks for the recommendation - I'll check out the X-Men soundtrack. Jackman got some stinging criticism for Winter Soldier, too. Though none of that matters, as the film-makers asked him back for Civil War, so they thought he did well, and ultimately, that's what counts, not what some online critics say.


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## Consona

Andrajas said:


> A respons to The Marvel Symphonic Universe video, some interesting stuff in there!



Dunno.
"What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving the World?" Great Zimmer's Superman melody right there. Joker's theme is a harsh tension, makes sense, no strong melody, but it's definitely not forgettable. Batman's, Dent's, Bane's or Catwoman's themes are great and memorable, Zimmer and Howard did a fantastic job, IMO.



NoamL said:


> Can't know for sure what Adorno was saying without context, but I have a sneaking suspicion that he just didn't respect film music because of some unfounded and snooty "high art" / "low art" distinction, hence the "No _real_ composer would write for film for any other than money reasons!" comment.


We had Adorno just this year in Modern German Philosophy class. If you read _Dialectic of Enlightenment_ you can somewhat understand his standpoints. He saw this pattern in our culture starting way back in ancient Greece, etc.: abstraction -> formalisation -> instrumentalisation -> manipulation. The more rational we become the better instruments of control we have at our disposal to manipulate others. The whole culture slowly turns into dehumanized society where the narrow percentage of people gain power and profit by feeding the majority with a bland prefabricated crap, because there are no individuals for them anymore, only countable and formalisable masses, which they can put into spreadsheets to see the best way how to profit from them. Hence he despised all the popular and mass-appealing things. So it's not so much about "high art vs. low art", but "industry, standardized production, easy on consumer, agreeable vs. art that is rather deep, profound, taking risks, etc. At least that's how I would interpret that from what I know.


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## Parsifal666

Consona said:


> Dunno.
> 
> 
> We had Adorno just this year in Modern German Philosophy class. If you read _Dialectic of Enlightenment_ you can somewhat understand his standpoints. He saw this pattern in our culture starting way back in ancient Greece, etc.: abstraction -> formalisation -> instrumentalisation -> manipulation. The more rational we become the better instruments of control we have at our disposal to manipulate others. The whole culture slowly turns into dehumanized society where the narrow percentage of people gain power and profit by feeding the majority with a bland prefabricated crap, because there are no individuals for them anymore, only countable and formalisable masses, which they can put into spreadsheets to see the best way how to profit from them. Hence he despised all the popular and mass-appealing things. So it's not so much about "high art vs. low art", but "industry, standardized production, easy on consumer, agreeable vs. art that is rather deep, profound, taking risks, etc. At least that's how I would interpret that from what I know.



That's a fine (as in well thought out) take on Adorno. As you probably guessed by now, Adorno was often guilty of going wide and attempting musical taste-making just because he felt it was his (goofily omniscient) duty to do so. When I studied him on my own, I quickly saw some of the more Hegelian and even Marxist viewpoints he had toward music (you can see the former's influence in Adorno's half baked attempts at creating a "system", among other things).

Still, he certainly had some more than interesting viewpoints. I haven't read him in decades, and I probably will again soon (whenever I put away my superhero comics for awhile  ).


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## Consona

Parsifal666 said:


> Hegelian and even Marxist viewpoints


Definitely. And there are some interesting connections with Lukács, Benjamin and others who's work is interesting in itself too. There are some great points in the works of these men about politics and similar stuff but when it comes to art, in the end, writing music for a block-buster can be as demanding as composing for any other reason or occasion. Shame Adorno does not live now to look me in the eye and tell me Han's Joker theme or Interstellar stuff are not results of some truly artistic endeavour even though it is a music for block-buster type of films. 



jononotbono said:


> Just came across a third video. Not sure if it's been posted here yet...



This video really shows there are very good themes in MCU's soundtracks and it is really shame the music was not made more coherent. But overall MCU stuff is rather bland. Hans for example is trying to find a music language and form for every film, Catwoman's music and Bane's music is something really different from Sherlock Holmes or from Interstellar, the sound palette is so different, MCU soundtrack's sound so samey and not distinct color-wise. Some variations are there no doubt, but nothing so pronounced like differences between Dark Knight stuff, Man of Steel stuff, etc., those really feel different and self-contained.

I myself love some MCU music. Like Patrick Doyle's "Ride to Observatory", man, such a great romantic piece.


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## Parsifal666

Sometimes I wonder if the entire film-as-art idea is best considered as a whole (or as Wagner put it a "Gesamstkunstwerk"). I don't feel that most cinematic music is particularly artful, especially when abstracted from the movie it was written for. However, when combined with the film you have art.

These are just perspectives, of course. I do, however, believe there is a certain, objective standard in regard to great art, and of the film composers I see men like John Williams as a likely great (as in Bach, Beethoven) composer (perhaps Mr. Goldsmith as well). But that last designation usually doesn't become widely acknowledged/accepted until postmortem anyhoo.


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## Parsifal666

And I love the Thor films, Brian Tyler's score for Dark World was also one heck of a lot of fun! Plus the Captain America movies...


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## Puzzlefactory

How about when a composer just re-uses the same score? Like with Bicentenial Man and A Beautiful Mind...?


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## Kony

Puzzlefactory said:


> How about when a composer just re-uses the same score? Like with Bicentenial Man and A Beautiful Mind...?


I hear classical composers used on different films....

EDIT: Sorry, realised I wasn't clear - I mean the same classical works used on different films. I suppose my point is: if it's ok for classical works to be re-used, why is it not ok for modern works?


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## NoamL

Now even the poor colorists are getting a Youtube lecture!


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