# New Mac Pros Announced! Completely designed for external expansion via TB 2.0!



## antoniopandrade (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm squealing like a little schoolgirl now! The specs look truly awesome! And the footprint is so much smaller than the current Mac Pros! Hooray!

http://www.macrumors.com/


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## gsilbers (Jun 10, 2013)

here is the live stream. if u dontmind listening to the nerd comentators


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## gsilbers (Jun 10, 2013)

http://www.ustream.tv/ltktv


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## AndrewS (Jun 10, 2013)

Ugh, organizing a machine room is going to get a lot less aesthetically pleasing. Also, right off the bat you're going to have to buy an expansion chassis or two if you need to add any cards to it.

Looks like there's going to be a run on buying towers before this tube hits the market.


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## Diffusor (Jun 10, 2013)

What a freaking joke. Apple is trolling us. lol Looks like a Hackintosh is the future of the professional mac platform.


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## Greg (Jun 10, 2013)

Diffusor @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> What a freaking joke. Apple is trolling us. lol Looks like a Hackintosh is the future of the professional mac platform.



Sad but true


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## sluggo (Jun 10, 2013)

Yup, no regrets in purchasing a mac pro last year. Hope nobody here waited for this.


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## Greg (Jun 10, 2013)

"The entire top of the Mac Pro is a handle for easy portability."

Who the lugs their mac pro's around anyway? 99% of them sit next to a desk and are never moved..


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## utopia (Jun 10, 2013)

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/index2.html


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## jamwerks (Jun 10, 2013)

That's a pretty daring design. Bet it'll be kinda pricy though....


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 10, 2013)

Seems like the external surface is polished aluminum, not plastic.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 10, 2013)

I don't care about Mac Pros anymore really since my setup will eventually be a couple MBPs and a few Minis.

That said, will they also have TB 2.0?


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 10, 2013)

I might buy into it. Depends on the price though. Although I would have preferred internal expansion with PCIe and SSD's I could live with having it all connected via one or two TB cables going to a 1U rack with SSD's + UAD etc...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm due for an upgrade. Looks like this'll be it. :mrgreen:


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Jun 10, 2013)

Power-wise, this is surely going to measure up more than nicely.
But only 4 RAM slots? That might be the dealbreaker for me.

I'm think the external TB2 expandability is gonna be really cool, but memory simply has to be internal.


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## studioj (Jun 10, 2013)

Perhaps a dual processor config would have 8 slots, much like the current system. But space is tight so who knows! This system is intriguing definitely... you could conceivably fit 4 of these in a space that currently holds a single mac pro for serious slave system action... maybe thats what this is for people like us... the ultimate sample slave. 

Did anyone catch the airplay display feature? i dunno if this is a new feature or not but you can turn a full TV / display connected to an apple TV into a secondary / third / fourth / whatever display. I wonder if the speed is fast enough for hosting a synced movie.


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## germancomponist (Jun 10, 2013)

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/06/f ... -creation/


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## Jack Weaver (Jun 10, 2013)

Uh... where's the power cord?

Unless of course they're inducting power from the atmosphere, ala Tesla. 

.


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 10, 2013)

Rasmus Hartvig @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> Power-wise, this is surely going to measure up more than nicely.
> But only 4 RAM slots? That might be the dealbreaker for me.
> 
> I'm think the external TB2 expandability is gonna be really cool, but memory simply has to be internal.



You need more than 4x8 or 4x16GB RAM in one machine?? I certainly don't.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 10, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/06/from-apple-no-lack-of-commitment-to-the-mac-pros-creation/



:roll: Obviously, this guy does not know anyone on the Logic development team.


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 10, 2013)

Jack Weaver @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> Uh... where's the power cord?
> 
> Unless of course they're inducting power from the atmosphere, ala Tesla.
> 
> .



There's the same 3 pin power connection as on the current one...?


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## jamwerks (Jun 10, 2013)

Seems aimed more towards the rich pro/sumer, more than the "pro's". And aimed more towards the pro video market also. Not sure we'll be seeing these in music studio's.

It'll be interesting to see how many move away from Logic in the coming weeks. And we might start seeing PC's in major studios....


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## Jack Weaver (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks Simon, 

Yes, I see it now on page 9 of the Mac Pro announcement - the IEC power cable connector at the bottom of the Expansion Ports.

This computer is TINY! Less than 10 inches tall. I look forward to seeing pricing and RAM configuration. Rack mounting will be a little interesting. 

.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 10, 2013)

What I was hoping for is a MacBook Air with a little more power. An 11" one with a 2.6 quad or something would be perfect.


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 10, 2013)

Jack Weaver @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> Thanks Simon,
> 
> Yes, I see it now on page 9 of the Mac Pro announcement - the IEC power cable connector at the bottom of the Expansion Ports.
> 
> ...



Looks expensive, if you really need to order it with that double GPU config which we don't have any use for at all.... sigh.


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## synthetic (Jun 10, 2013)

Guess I'll just toss my PCI MADI interface then. I'l just replace it with the Thunderbolt MADI interface that no one makes. I suppose I could get the Avid HD Native and their MADI interface, and then put all of my hard drives in a new Thunderbolt chassis, and... wow my old Mac Pro is looking better and better.


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## Daryl (Jun 10, 2013)

Other than the fact it looks like a dustbin, I would want to know what CPU it uses and how many chips. The only information available ATM seems to be that it will use an Intel E5 12 core (which really means 6 core with Hyperthreading). Well, those chips are old news, so for this machine to be new, there has to be something special to make it better than what is already on offer as a Hackintosh.

D


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## Theseus (Jun 10, 2013)

Daryl,

It'll use the new Xeon E5-2600 V2 (Ivy Bridge) that will be released in Q3 2013. Those will feature 12 core architecture (24 with Hyperthreading, not the other way around). It's insanely powerful (how many of us have the top of the shelf actual config? Not many...)

It'll be a single CPU, no dual socket. I guess the choice is connected to the need for heat dissipation. Two CPU's in such a wonderfully small unit would make it impossible to cool down with a giant fan 

I'm in, definitely. Now bring on Logic X and a new thunderbolt display.


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## ryanstrong (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm wondering if the lesser form factor will bring down manufacturing costs which will be forwarded to us consumers for a cheaper retail price?


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## charlieclouser (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm all over this thing - add to cart!


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## Reegs (Jun 10, 2013)

PCI (read: Enterprise-grade) flash storage. Yup, gonna be pricey!

The form factor is nice though!


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## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm surely ordering one of these monster Mac Pro's once they start shipping later this year, hopefully during Q3/2013. 

My good old 2006 model, Mac Pro 3.0 Ghz, 8 core is still working great, although I don't use it for music production. (I'm all PC now ). 

Given the power the new Mac Pro offers, I wouldn't be surprised if I can keep it for 5 to 6 years, just like my 2006 Mac Pro. They truly last for a good number of years, providing solid performance. So, even if the price of the new Mac Pro's is quite steep. I think the cost distributed over the number of years you can put it into serving your needs is still a good value for the initial investment. 

I just hope that they run cool, quiet, and have no unexpected issues popup once they begin shipping. TB2 peripherals should begin materializing in the market. Especially once the PCs get TB2 as more of a standard I/O feature. Which will also help drive their prices down over time. 

Exciting Times ahead ! 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## rgames (Jun 10, 2013)

Theseus @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> It'll use the new Xeon E5-2600 V2 (Ivy Bridge) that will be released in Q3 2013. Those will feature 12 core architecture (24 with Hyperthreading, not the other way around).


Using a 12-core Xeon for a DAW is like driving a Ferrari in Manhattan.

You'll never make use of all that power and will, ultimately, do nothing more than hasten the process of global warming!

Seriously - what's the TDP on that processor - 200W?

rgames


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## dinerdog (Jun 10, 2013)

Totally getting this. ^>|


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## charlieclouser (Jun 10, 2013)

rgames @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> You'll never make use of all that power...



I will.


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## stonzthro (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm due for an upgrade - this should do the trick.


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## dgburns (Jun 10, 2013)

i'm encouraged to see ya'll diggin this thing.I'm on the fence about the peripheral side of things,madi pcie cards etc.

but boy,this thing sure looks like some discarded wardrobe malfunction from Darth Vader.


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## gsilbers (Jun 10, 2013)

looks cool. and its REALLY firkin fast. thunderbolt2.0 i 20gbs per second. how amazing is that?!??! 
2xcpu faster than current top macros. 24 hyper threading. !

hopefully dongle like pci cards will switch to lower priced thunderbolt i/os .

and still waiting for logic :(


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## Reegs (Jun 10, 2013)

gsilbers @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> hopefully dongle like pci cards will switch to lower priced thunderbolt i/os .



There's always this option, too.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpressse.html


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## floydian05 (Jun 10, 2013)

We'll have to get a second chasis to put more hard drives in, which isn't a huge deal I guess. Definitely some cool tech in there with the design for cooling. I don't like that it will be shipping with Dual GPUS that I don't need especially with Apple's 4,000% markup. 

I hope that a new version of Logic is released soon too, no mention of that today!


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## colony nofi (Jun 11, 2013)

This has really got me thinking.
I carry around a bunch (3 most of the time) of mac mini's to run my sample libs while on the road. Nice and tidy in sonnet racks. Quite powerful, but I always feel on the "edge" of my MBPro - which runs the sessions / mixes.
Given that this is so small - I'd almost consider it portable. (They even hilighted the "handle" in the top.

Could it be the ultimate composers computer? 

Its probably worth breaking this down bit by bit.

CPU. From all the rumors, testing, current gen xeon cpu performance and known tech that is going into the next gen Xeons (and this looks like being one of the first machines that use them) and given the performance of the current gen really only recently hit the ground, this looks like a winner to start with. The top of the line will be very VERY expensive (for the 12 core CPU... I've seen $2.5k mentioned JUST for the chip...) - but even the lower models look quite exciting. 
Aside from the number crunching (particulalry FP performance), this next gen brings with it support for PCIe gen 3, faster ram, tbolt2, etc. There is no reason to think this won't offer perhaps 1.5x what a 4770 will for vsti users at the low end, and probably MUCH more than that at the high end
There will STILL be OS bottlenecks (which have been shown time and time again) relating to low latency performance - but the shear power of these CPUs may mitigate much of this.

RAM. This looks like being a *bit* of a downer, but we'll see over time. What we do know is that there is only 4 slots. 
Quad channel - which usually means we'll need 4 identical sticks to get best performance. It is DAMN fast RAM, and will be avaliable in 16GB sticks. So that gives us (at a price) 64GB max. This is enough for most people - but only just. I load my 3 mac mini's up to about 80% RAM usage @ 16GB each, and my sessions on my mac pro often give RAM usage above 10GB (of 16GB) - so its not TONNES of headroom for someone like me, but also not unreasonable. The price of the ram on the other hand.... I think I'll wait for OWC or someone similar to come out with sticks. 32GB sticks are said to be in the works as well...

Internal Storage. This is interesting. Essentially using the PCIe bus directly - not NEW technology, but quite new in this workstation segment. So incredibly fast it will make the OS purr along. The drawback? Price (again) is currently double, if not MORE than double SSD's. I can imagine 1TB running in at $2k or so. 
So the question will be - do we run a minimum (say 256 or 512GB) of this internally, and then put samples on a T/B SSD (given you can get 960GB SSD by Crucial for $600 today) and use some other T/B or USB3 drive for projects... OR just get a large version of this PCIe gen3 storage? I think we'll be busy connecting drives for sometime... but aside from cable clutter, there's nothing inherently WRONG with this. Just not a huge number of t/bolt options (yet) - but I do see that changing.

Graphics cards? Overkill for what we do. I did hear a few commentators suggesting that there prob will be lower end options. The dual GPU they've demonstrated can run 3x4K displays. While I'd love a 4k display, I don't see that happening in the next 2 years for me ($ wise!) We *do* know apple are coming out with "retina" versions of their current t/bolt display - given the ultra high res desktop wallpapers included in the dev release of OSX 10.9. (Yes, WAY more than 2546x1440)

Nice to have an HDMI port in there to run our televisions for working to picture....

6xTbolt slots means we worry less about getting thunderbolt peripherals which have passthru. Opens up a few other options for small SSD's and the like. 

No F/W is not really a problem - there are T/Bolt to firewire convertors for that - as well as t/bolt breakout boxes - I can see the new sonnet box being popular with esata + fw + dvd etc.

Great there's 2xGB ethernet ports. Good to run sample slaves if necessary.

4xUSB3 - well, I'd LOVE more ports, but given a USB2 10 port hub, most people should be right. (I have 4 dongles alone...plus 4 different USB controllers etc etc)

Now - whats missing. We can't put HD's inside. Will this be a problem? Interesting - but in some ways, this is future proofing. We'll have to invest in T/Bolt boxes for our drives (I see a 4 drive rack like the OWC eSATA model coming out in tbolt soon enough) but once we do - it will last up to 8 or 10 years. (Given roadmap for thunderbolt). Get a new CPU in 4 or 5 years, plug in the same drives. 

PCIe. Again - means LESS and less than it used to. As composers, our most used PCIe cards are video (which can prob be now handled with internal video - unless capture is needed, and then there is blackmagic type external cards) and then DSP. DSP on a card is in my opinion a dying tech. Nobody likes things we are currently using to be FORCED into obsolescence - but for those who have a lot invested in UAD and the like, there are tbolt to PCIe expanders. Not a perfect solution (more $) but it 
will get you going. Same for PCIe sound cards. More and more manufactures will go for thunderbolt - or USB2/3 for the interface. I'm waiting for MH to come out with an update for their racks (which they have said WILL come.)

LOTS of things we'll need to pay for - to get the same use as now - and that's a hard pill to swallow. Especially because the way it works now isn't necessarily broken. Apple COULD have built this machine to incorporate internal 2.5" or 3.5" SATA3 slots - or some pcie slots. But they've chosen to go down a new path. A modular path. A path not travelled much in the professional world prior to now. 

But perhaps this IS the future. It will cost us all a pretty penny to jump into this way of thinking. 

Is it workable? Sure. Will it provide benefits to us as users? I don't know. Maybe - for portability for one - and perhaps even noise levels (single fan in the box.) But is it worth it? That will be for us to decide as we weigh up our individual upgrade paths.

But I can sure see dropping 10k on getting my system up and running if I go down this path. Not sure I will. Will wait for more specific details. I have SO many esata drives at the moment that will need migration... not to mention 12TB of spinning disks in my old mac pro (which I no longer use for composing... its now a post machine for another operator only...)

Apologies for the ramble. But its all just food for thought.

B.


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 11, 2013)

gsilbers @ Tue Jun 11 said:


> looks cool. and its REALLY firkin fast. thunderbolt2.0 i 20gbs per second. how amazing is that?!??!
> 2xcpu faster than current top macros. 24 hyper threading. !
> 
> hopefully dongle like pci cards will switch to lower priced thunderbolt i/os .
> ...



Thunderbolt is nice but still less bandwidth than PCIe... But as long as the gfx cards are internal I guess us audio guys at least will be more than fine.


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## Daryl (Jun 11, 2013)

Theseus @ Tue Jun 11 said:


> Daryl,
> 
> It'll use the new Xeon E5-2600 V2 (Ivy Bridge) that will be released in Q3 2013. Those will feature 12 core architecture (24 with Hyperthreading, not the other way around). It's insanely powerful (how many of us have the top of the shelf actual config? Not many...)


Ah yes, I forgot that Intel was releasing the new chips later this year. For some reason I had it confused with the much more powerful ones that are due Q1 2014. Sorry.

I already have 12(24) cores, so it will be interesting to see how much more powerful the new machines are, compared with what's already available.

D


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## Daryl (Jun 11, 2013)

rgames @ Tue Jun 11 said:


> Theseus @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > It'll use the new Xeon E5-2600 V2 (Ivy Bridge) that will be released in Q3 2013. Those will feature 12 core architecture (24 with Hyperthreading, not the other way around).
> ...


I'm already using a dual 6(12) core Xeon, and it is very handy for the occasions when I need to run a boat load of plugs. I can see that the new machine would theoretically be useful to the people who need a lot of processing power, but don't want to run multiple machines.

D


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Jun 11, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ 10th June 2013 said:


> Rasmus Hartvig @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Power-wise, this is surely going to measure up more than nicely.
> ...



Nah, maybe not 
I'm at 8x4GB now, and that's fine for my current use. 
But who knows what orchestral sample goodness will come along and make us all want 256 gigs of ram?


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 11, 2013)

Rasmus Hartvig @ Tue Jun 11 said:


> Simon Ravn @ 10th June 2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Rasmus Hartvig @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> ...



Your CPU won't be able to keep up with this much data anyway, not to mention your SSD's. AND not to mention how long it will take to load up a, say, 128GB template... I still think having one or more slaves is the way to spread out the workload.


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## IFM (Jun 11, 2013)

I'm still running strong on my 2006 1,1 model with upgraded CPU's. This new machine looks great but I can't imagine needing anything near the top end model. USB3 should be fast enough for the recording drive and the TB would be for a sample drive.

The holdback would be costs but we'll see.


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 11, 2013)

From what I read on forums it seems underpowered on PCI lanes though, since they are totally bypassing SATA - so it will have to rely on fewer lanes for doing EVERYTHING - displays, DSP, external storage, soundcards, external PCIe solutions. Will have to wait and see if it'll matter.


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## chimuelo (Jun 11, 2013)

This machine is designed for excellent video and low power in a small mobile package.
It might not be needed right now, although I would buy it if I were a Logic user, this will be the rig to have in 2014 when prices drop.
THere's really not enough TBolt 2.0 devices to justify it's purchase either.
But who wouldn't want this beast next year...?
I think it another brilliant Apple move at a time when I figured they were under the strain of competition from Samsung, and M$oft.
I buy Apple iPad, iPod and iPhone 5 for my kid, and now the new Haswell MacBook Pro's will be a great Christmas gift. Even an XITE-1 D as a 50% CHristmas gift beats any other sound card for a laptop out there.
I am hoping an Apollo Quad and XITE-1 can be run simultaneously, then my kid can save a fortune on constant upgrades and pictures of new gear we call VSTi's and AU's.


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## Wunderhorn (Jun 12, 2013)

I think the new Mac Pro is a mixed bag.

I doubt that the pricing will honestly reflect the absence of PCI slots, HD bays, optical drive and the additional memory slots.

Despite all wishful thinking, most of us still cannot house all of our sample libraries on an SSD. Or even several. I would assume that most of us still need HDs alongside SSDs simply for capacity (Same for design, video etc.). For Apple to simply ignore this fact is simply self indulgent geekery that has not much to do with users who first and foremost need to get their job done.

All this great engineering to reduce the fan noise, and the technology for that is beautiful. But what is it worth, if you have to have external enclosures for storage devices that need cooling themselves? Hardly any 3rd party manufacturer really cares about noise. They would not even post the db in their specs.

And on that note - Does anyone here know a 4-bay HD enclosure that runs on thunderbolt2 and is decently quiet?

Other than that - there is a lot of good in the trashcan, I am definitely curious. But if nothing else, I fear it gets expensive to make all your existing peripherals work. Maybe too expensive for many. Apple, you should have thought this through.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 12, 2013)

> But if nothing else, I fear it gets expensive to make all your existing peripherals work. Maybe too expensive for many. Apple, you should have thought this through.



Clearly, they did think it through; the problem is that their conclusion isn't the one you and I want!

Thunderbolt can kiss my ass, to paraphrase the great Thonex on the subject of 96k a few years ago.


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## Wunderhorn (Jun 12, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> Clearly, they did think it through; the problem is that their conclusion isn't the one you and I want!
> 
> Thunderbolt can kiss my ass, to paraphrase the great Thonex on the subject of 96k a few years ago.



Yes, frankly, and especially with several SSDs in some of the traditional HD slots I have a decent amount of bandwidth to play lots of samples. For that I am not in dire need of Thunderbolt. I am more interested in more processor speed plus fast RAM and fluidity when maneuvering in the DAW. This is also true - actually even more true - for my graphic design and digital illustration work.

I would assume there are many users out there with a number of HDs and additional SSDs (because 2 smaller ones are cheaper than one larger one) which - if they are opting to get a new Mac Pro all need solutions to be housed externally. And that solution may get expensive. Even now external Thunderbolt enclosures are somewhere between 650-850 and up for 4 bays. And god knows what noise pollution these will bring to the table.


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## germancomponist (Jun 12, 2013)

Best solution: Better build a PC.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 14, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> Best solution: Better build a PC.



Obnoxious and unnecessary.

Meanwhile, why is it that the bright shiny future is always just over the horizon, shimmering, ephemeral, always just a tad out of reach?


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## germancomponist (Jun 14, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Best solution: Better build a PC.
> ...



Ha ha, a good question!


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## wonshu (Jun 14, 2013)

Let me dream:

what if you could stick together 2 machines over TB2 for distributed computing power? It would become quite a nice option to extend power. OK, with memory bandwidth of 60GB/s vs. TB2 of 20GB/s it's not yet quite so feasable.

But hey, maybe it moves into this modular design where you just slap another not quite so expensive machine next to your current one and continue working without even noticing.


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## rgames (Jun 14, 2013)

wonshu @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> what if you could stick together 2 machines over TB2 for distributed computing power? It would become quite a nice option to extend power. OK, with memory bandwidth of 60GB/s vs. TB2 of 20GB/s it's not yet quite so feasable.


I believe your "B" should be "b" for TB2 - you're off by a factor of eight. TB2 bandwidth is 20 Gb/s = 2.5 GB/s. So the bandwidth probably is too low but even if it weren't I bet the latency would make it impractical. You need something like Infiniband to do distributed parallel processing. Throughput for Infiniband can hit 300 Gb/s (37.5 GB/s) with latency down around 100 nanoseconds or so. However, even that kind of speed might not be enough for a real-time system like a DAW.

Which brings up an interesting point about the consumer computer hardware world - companies push standards like Thunderbolt when far-superior technologies like Infiniband have been around for over a decade.

Marketing...! Well, maybe Infiniband is a much-higher-cost connection but it seems unlikely, especially since it's been around for so long.

rgames


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## windshore (Jun 14, 2013)

Interesting new feature in Maverick. I'm not sure how it will work regarding samples...
http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/06/ ... ttery-life


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## wonshu (Jun 14, 2013)

rgames @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> I believe your "B" should be "b" for TB2 - you're off by a factor of eight. TB2 bandwidth is 20 Gb/s = 2.5 GB/s.



Those damn Bs... I suppose you're right.

Although VEP makes "distributed computing" sort of possible. I know, I know... it's not the same principle...

And I've never even heard of Infiniband up until now.


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## rgames (Jun 14, 2013)

wonshu @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> And I've never even heard of Infiniband up until now.


You're not alone 

Like I said, the consumer computer world creates new versions of old technologies so they can market them as new. The fact is that most companies like Apple don't embrace a technology until it has been around for a while.

The end result is that pop culture hails them as technology development companies but, in fact, that is not the case. There are almost no large computer/software/gadget companies that do actual technology development (Google and Intel are probably the only exceptions, Microsoft kind-of does it). Big companies like Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, etc. are really technology marketing companies - they take the technologies developed elsewhere and package them into consumer-oriented products with enormous marketing budgets.

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2013)

Again!?


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## Adrian Myers (Jun 15, 2013)

Calling them marketing companies is unfair to their many, many lawyers.


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## jamwerks (Jun 16, 2013)

windshore @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> Interesting new feature in Maverick. I'm not sure how it will work regarding samples...
> http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/06/ ... ttery-life



Interesting read. Seems geared towards consumer stuff (small portables & pads) but maybe counterproductive in a "pro" environment (with big cpu's and 64gb ram onboard).

Not knowing anything about Information technology, it also reminded me of reasons why audio reportedly works better under Windows.

FWIW, after now seeing where apple has gone with the Mac Pro, I'm glad I've switched from Logic to DP. My next main machine will be a pc (and I'll spend the saved $2.5k on samples).


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## LFO (Jun 18, 2013)

Infiniband has been around in the server world for several years now. It allows very high speed, low latency connections between CPUs an I/O or between blades or between Enterprise CECs. It will be a boon to have an Infiniband connection to storage.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

What on earth are Enterprise CECs, blades, and Infiniband?


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## germancomponist (Jun 19, 2013)

rgames @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> wonshu @ Fri Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > And I've never even heard of Infiniband up until now.
> ...



In the financial sector, it is exactly the same. They take old financial products and thus build new products that are barely manageable. What is really new is the name.

And in many other areas, is exactly the same. Just look to so many "new" Kontakt instruments.... .


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## jlb (Jun 19, 2013)

The new mac pro is a mistake by Apple. A Mac Pro is supposed to be a studio workhorse that doesn't move, it just stays in the same place in the studio. It needs to have many different drives, for samples, OS, projects etc, that can be fitted by a user at reasonable cost. What is the benefit of making something that is an eighth of the size if it never leaves the studio? What is the benefit of making something that is not able to be expanded at reasonable cost? Why pay for a 3x4k gpu that you do not need? It is ridiculous and I will not be buying one.

JLB


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## synthetic (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm sure glad I didn't invest in any Universal Audio DSPs. Is there any audio hardware that's compatible between my old Mac Pro and the next ones? And how long do you think Thunderbolt will be around? Five years, maybe ten? Longer than Firewire? 

Why call it pro if it's incompatible with the hardware that pros use? 

#grumpyoldman #getoffmylawn


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## germancomponist (Jun 19, 2013)

synthetic @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Why call it pro if it's incompatible with the hardware that pros use?
> 
> #grumpyoldman #getoffmylawn



Maybe "pro" will defined new (by Apple)? o/~ o=<


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## rgames (Jun 19, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> What on earth are Enterprise CECs, blades, and Infiniband?


Just rest assured that Apple will change the names and re-brand them into their own version of the technology in 5-10 years. Then you'll say "Wow! Look at this new technology the innovators at Apple came up with!" And then you'll plunk down $10k for the right to own their version of the technology that wraps Apple's plastic on the outside 

I don't know what CEC's are but blade servers are processing nodes that you can add/subtract per your needs. If you need more processing power, you add more. Infiniband is an interconnect protocol that provides the type of bandwidth and latency you need to make that approach work - you can't just hook these things up with Ethernet or Thunderbolt because those connections are too slow. Because the processors/storage/output are modular and separate you need something to link them together. Infiniband is one way to do that (I'd say it's the most common in the world of scientific computing but I'm not sure about other applications).

Such an approach is very old technology in the high-performance computing world (in fact, that's how it's been done since the beginning) but it has recently entered the consumer market under the term "Cloud Computing". Again, that's just branding applied to old technology so it can be sold to the mass market.

If you want to know what's coming in the Windows/Mac computing world then go find a guy using Linux and find out what he's up to.

rgames


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## edhamilton (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm running a PT HDX card and a UAD octo in a magma thunderbolt box. Works well. Zero issues.

My default position would be to hate on the new macpro for all the reasons stated above. But after running my little magma rig, it just took a bit of revisualizing what a new kickass macpro setup would be and I'm fine with it.
Tbolt box for pcie cards
Tbolt box for Drives.
Quiet, lightweight, plug in once and forget them so what do I really care if its inside the mac chassis or sitting off to the side. 
It's all under my desk so maybe my feet will notice every day. My eyes/brain won't.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

synthetic @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> I'm sure glad I didn't invest in any Universal Audio DSPs. Is there any audio hardware that's compatible between my old Mac Pro and the next ones? And how long do you think Thunderbolt will be around? Five years, maybe ten? Longer than Firewire?
> 
> Why call it pro if it's incompatible with the hardware that pros use?
> 
> #grumpyoldman #getoffmylawn



if you like 10 years, or even 5 years, of stasis, you are in the wrong game.

The good news is that the hardware police (and software police) will not come in the middle of the night and take your existing rig away.


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## synthetic (Jun 19, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Maybe "pro" will defined new (by Apple)? o/~ o=<



When you open Final Cut Pro X and import media for your first project, the default is the built-in iSight camera. So yeah, their idea of pro and mine have diverged.


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## synthetic (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> The good news is that the hardware police (and software police) will not come in the middle of the night and take your existing rig away.



Yes, but it will break eventually. Especially for "pros" who leave their machines on 24/7.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

synthetic @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > The good news is that the hardware police (and software police) will not come in the middle of the night and take your existing rig away.
> ...



true, but as I say and I know you of all people know working for Tascam as you do, technology eventually moves on and we must as well.


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## Per Lichtman (Jun 19, 2013)

I don't know about everybody else but for me there are a few ways I look at this.

Industrial Design: Apple has been (and remains) an industry leader in industrial design in regards to aesthetic appeal and cross-market penetration. I am not always convinced by the utility side of the equation, but while there are several things I take major issue with in this design I think we should acknowledge the efficiency in terms of the approach to both heat and noise level. The system should run quite quietly and while the mess of cables required to keep the system operating in a fashion I'm accustomed might undercut the visual appeal of the original design, I can certainly understand why many people like it.

Performance - Initial Configuration: From a video perspective, this marks the first Apple computer that ships with a competitive professional video solution in the initial configuration in years. While there are several applications that only support CUDA, not OpenCL (or at least do so more efficiently) this is one of the few times where the video card has actually added to rather than subtracted from the sex appeal of an Apple product - and the fact that it does so in an ostensibly low-noise design is nothing to scoff at.

The maximum RAM is competitive with essentially all systems outside the server market and the speed of the RAM is similarly competitive (unless you are big on using OC RAM).

The SSD interface will be fast. Thunderbolt 2.0 will be fast. Are they the fastest available? Maybe not but they compare favorably with the dominant standards in play prior to the system's launch.

Unless Intel's E5 12-core is woefully underclocked, there's almost no conceivable way that CPU performance could be a liability at launch and it will likely be an asset.

Performance - A Year or Two Down The Line: This is where the closed nature of the system starts to become a liability. If RAM requirements increase quickly, or new standards come into vogue, then a motherboard swap is out of the question and an entirely new system would be required.

But while that might be an exotic and unusual situation (or one that only a handful of people care about) there's reason to look at the graphics side of the equation. The rate of improvement for GPUs substantially outstrips that of CPUs, meaning both that higher performance is available for the same price within a year and that previously highest performance options come down in price. In other words that same video/graphics market that might be rather well-served by the built-in cards at launch might suffer from not being able to change them when the next generation hits.

In addition, the (current) relative lack of competition in the Thunderbolt 1.0 (let alone 2.0) sector means that any upgrades at the moment (exempting RAM, which will be discussed shortly) would require substantially higher investment than in competing products based on more common interfaces.

RAM is currently the exception, with ECC 4X16GB modules being rather competitive in price with 8x8GB modules at the time of writing (at least at the lower speeds as I have trouble finding 1866MHz options to compare).

Cost and Convenience: I don't know about others here, but I don't make purchasing decisions independent of price. The fact that everything from adding storage to additional cards is currently more expensive with the new Mac Pro than competing options is a deterrent. The fact that I have to get external storage or enclosures, etc. in order to be able to upgrade storage capacity is a deterrent. The fact that I could use the price difference between buying this system and one with similar performance in most areas and with more built-in internal expandabilty to buy other audio hardware or software (including but not limited to sample libraries, AD/DA converters, microphones, speakers, etc.) is a deterrent.

Overall Perspective: If you don't mind the increased investment required to both purchase the system initially and buy the external additions many professionals require, then you will end up with a quiet running system that launches with high performance under most standard metrics (at least that's an inference that seems natural based on the specifications announced so far). If you don't tend to invest in after-market upgrades to the system internals, then there isn't much of a deterrent there either.

It doesn't seem like a system that I would prefer to buy for myself, but I could see myself finding many things to appreciate about it if I were working on one in a client's studio. While I disagree with many of their design decisions and feel like they are alienating a market that I'm part of, I would be hard-pressed to say that they haven't gained advantages from those choices as well.

Perhaps I'm simply to utilitarian in my thinking to fully appreciate what they are trying to do. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong, either.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

> if you like 10 years, or even 5 years, of stasis, you are in the wrong game



You're talking about a game that ended without your noticing it.

The world you're living in is gone, Jay. It collapsed five years ago; today's economy is totally different. Most people don't upgrade computers and throw away expensive audio cards every two years anymore. That part of the digital revolution is all but over - which is not to say that there aren't still lots of trained seals who will bark loudly and open their wallets every time Avid née Digidesign or Apple passes wind, just that the vast majority of the world doesn't need to and can't afford to chase its tail nonstop as a matter of course.

And we all knew it couldn't continue forever. In the '80s, it made a very real difference - the next keyboard du jour let you play way more parts at the same time, and the new computer that came out was so fast that you wondered how you tolerated the previous one. Those machines even held their value for a brief period of time between when you took them out of your car and when you unpacked them.

Progress continues, of course, but the differences are much more incremental these days.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

The mac Pros are clearly aimed, as they pretty much always have clearly aimed, at working audio and video pros who can afford to upgrade every 4 or 5 years.

But if Apple has miscalculated, they will bear the pain.


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## Per Lichtman (Jun 19, 2013)

@Nick Batzdorf @EastWest Lurker

Working audio pros generally have an easier time in this equation than the video pros because of how many people use external audio interfaces (though of course there are lots of us that don't) vs. the number of people that use external video cards. A high-end video card from today is unlikely to fare particularly well against the options available in 3 years in terms of raw performance, let alone modifications to the shader models versions supported, etc.

So the video card part of the equation will be great in the short term but some video/graphics professionals will not be keen to lock themselves in without video upgrade options in that area for those 4-5 years.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

The proof will be in the sales figures, right Per?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

No question, video is a special case. There are no external equivalents to video cards, and there's no way around it.

We're talking V.I.s, however. My prediction is that a $29 FireWire adapter will allow FireWire interfaces to work on the new machines. But the thing that makes me turn on my sprinklers (to chase people off my lawn) is the prospect of paying $400 for a freaking stupid box that lets you continue to use same hard drives you can run on any other computer in the world.

If you buy Pro Tools, you know it's not going to work on the next machine. Ed Hamilton is running his cards in a stupid freaking box with only one issue: he had to waste a big amount of money on that stupid freaking box.

Bear in mind that you can buy a $29.99 motherboard/CPU combination that has three PCI slots, FireWire, IDE, Ultra ATA, SATA...you name it. So it's not like there's anything rational about this BS!


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## vrocko (Jun 19, 2013)

Here are some preliminary Benchmarks.
http://www.macrumors.com/2013/06/19/app ... enchmarks/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

hahaha

And look at the comments:

"But...but...that's UNDERWHELMING!"

"That's ALL?!"

"I was expecting more."

Of course computers are going to be way faster in ten years than they are today. But this just what I'm saying: we've reached a plateau. The days when you need to throw out all your perfectly good stuff (or pay a ridiculous amount of money to keep running it) are over.


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## IFM (Jun 19, 2013)

I keep thinking my Mac Pro 1,1 is long in the tooth, and it is, but with the upgraded 3.0 quad core dual CPU's it scores out at 11255. The main bottleneck is the RAM speed really. Still though apart form Hollywood Strings I run everything on it in real time and sometimes Freeze. If anything now I am more tempted to get an iMac or Mini. The iMac would have more ram slots though.


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## Per Lichtman (Jun 20, 2013)

@EastWest Lurker Of course, agreed.


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## jlb (Jun 20, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> The proof will be in the sales figures, right Per?



The sales figures would have been good if they had housed it in a proper case, with some room in it, user replaceable parts, proper ssd drive bays, a sata 3 board, still have thunderbolt and usb3 no problem. There was no need to drop firewire 800 either. RS232 has been around for 30 years. It is a load of nonsense.

JLB


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 20, 2013)

jlb @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > The proof will be in the sales figures, right Per?
> ...



I hear that is the way you wish Apple had gone with it but if we know _anything_ about them, it is that they go their own way and let the sales figures speak for themselves.

Their motto seems to be, "If it sells well, then obviously it is good."


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## rgames (Jun 20, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Their motto seems to be, "If it sells well, then obviously it is good."


Apple has never sold anything on the basis of good/better/best. They make good products, but so do a lot of other people.

Apple sells based on brand image, just like Nike or Coca-Cola or the old-school Catholic Church: "Give us your money and we'll give you a gift from God."

That's the brilliance of Apple: it's not the technology, it's the branding of the technology that sells their products. They were the first brand computer/gadget technology and have capitalized enormously on doing so. Market success for Apple is not a consequence of the "goodness" of their products (though they do make good products). Market success for Apple is a consequence of their ability to develop an extremely strong brand image.

I always say there are four types of bumper stickers: Sports, Religion, Politics, and Apple. "Goodness" has nothing to do with any of them - it's all about brand image.

rgames


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## dinerdog (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't think that's their motto at all. I don't think it's changed since Steve Jobs passed.

Many people are just too set in their ways to live and work like that. We should all get more comfortable with "being" uncomfortable. There seems to be a LOT of people here happy with things "just the way they are".

"All art is technology, that's the very nature of it. And the artist is always bumping against that technology".

George Lucas


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 20, 2013)

Jay:



> The proof will be in the sales figures, right Per?



I'm not Per, but my answer is no. Do you believe in $ = right as a universal rule?

I'll certainly own a new Mac Pro at some point, and of course there are lots of people who legitimately do need to upgrade their computers and have been waiting. But I don't understand why so many people around these parts are willing to waste money on stupid boxes reflexively, without a thought.

As I keep shrieking, those days are over. And it's not a matter of "working pros who can afford to upgrade every few years," as if wasting money is a badge of honor!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 20, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> [quot]The proof will be in the sales figures, right Per?



I'm not Per, but my answer is no. Do you believe in $ = right as a universal rule?

[/quote]

No but I think most companies do, especially Apple.,


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## madbulk (Jun 20, 2013)

rgames @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I always say there are four types of bumper stickers: Sports, Religion, Politics, and Apple.
> > rgames



This is pretty darn funny. If that's yours, get it made into bumper stickers of your own.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 20, 2013)

This is what I'd be looking at:

http://www.amazon.com/Vantec-NexStar-eSATA-Adapter-CB-ESATAU3/dp/B0064J75IQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1371751971&sr=8-4&keywords=thunderbolt+to+esata+adapter (http://www.amazon.com/Vantec-NexStar-eS ... ta+adapter)


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## jaeroe (Jun 20, 2013)

rgames @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Their motto seems to be, "If it sells well, then obviously it is good."
> ...



that seems like a pretty big overstatement/oversimplification to me. brand image is clearly a big part of their strategy, but they've been really smart about cornering certain markets and providing people with something they wanted and could use easily.

imac was hugely popular because you plugged it in and it worked. the gui was insanely easy. apple made themselves almost impossible to avoid in the music industry and very prominent with video content distribution. with iphone they provided a lot of people with an all-on-one device. yes, they were image savvy, but they had good ideas to back it up and took a mile from the inches they good ideas gave them.

some of their products haven't worked so well, because the products didn't hold up - image didn't save them then.


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## jaeroe (Jun 20, 2013)

but just to offer up some other options if you want to use mac software, but not buy the new trash can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBGhZn_AvoQ


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## gamalataki (Jun 20, 2013)

dinerdog @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> There seems to be a LOT of people here happy with things "just the way they are".


Most people will consistently skate to where the puck was.


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## jaeroe (Jun 20, 2013)

gamalataki @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> dinerdog @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > There seems to be a LOT of people here happy with things "just the way they are".
> ...



with the general populous... more like a 4 year-olds' soccer game.... or like an apple store on iphone launch day...


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