# Is this "epic" or something else?



## rJames (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm trying to write something "epic". I don't know if my EIS studies are getting in the way or helping. I think, helping.

I would love some comments. 

Thanks.

http://digitmusic.net/music/Heroes2.mp3 (Heroes2)


----------



## Blackster (Oct 19, 2006)

Hi rJames,

"epic" means something like "telling a long story". Referring to this as a guidline I would say: Yes, your cue is epic. Very nice writing. 

You have some very interesting lines in there, I really enjoyed listening. I finish my studies in a month and then I´ll think of becoming an EIS-student, too. 

Kind Regards,

Blackster


----------



## José Herring (Oct 19, 2006)

Pretty powerfull imo. The only thing I'd work on is the arrangement. For some reason it gets a little too repetative for me towards the middle and the end. Maybe match up a little more of the low brass with the rhythm in places. Also I'd save some of the bigger drums for impact during and at the climax of cresc. But that's person preference. I know it's kind of hip these days to have big ass drums throughout the whole piece.


----------



## Sean Beeson (Oct 19, 2006)

I feel that the composition is of an epic quality. Very nice at times.

Another part of epic is the production aspects. (Or at least I feel it is) This is where the composition could be epicified even more. There are a lot of different secrets to making the sound more "epic", and a lot of what I do to help my sound become a little bigger, is double nearly every part with another instruments, and sometimes triple the lines. Just a suggestion 

Nice piece,
Sean Beeson


----------



## midphase (Oct 19, 2006)

You're missing the staple of epic.....big choirs!

I actually think you should lay off the heavy drums and percussion to only be there in key moments....I think it will have more impact that way.

Nice piece though!


----------



## lux (Oct 19, 2006)

Nice cue Ron, cool musical moments.

I agree with Kays about the percussions. I noticed same thing, the "tom" like usage of some \heavy percussions reduces the dynamic of the cue.

I like it

Luca


----------



## rJames (Oct 19, 2006)

Thanks for listening and giving me some ideas.

I respect each of you guys' opinions.

Would it change your mind about the big drums all the way through if I said this was for film trailers? I'm not saying it should...

I am torn between emulating what I hear on trailers and "just write the best you can".

I agree about the percussion throughout. There has to be a rest to contrast. But I want to do this for the guys who make decisions on what gets recorded.

I have a friend who didn't like the tbone section at the end. All the parallel 4ths and 5ths. I like that section. 
But we are our own worst critics.


----------



## kid-surf (Oct 19, 2006)

rJames---

For me this pieces sounds like you are a bit confused. The issue you said you have with it, that's what it "feels" like to me.

I feel you should pick "one" and do that. There's no reason you can't do a good cue for each, so why try and combine them if you are feeling ambiguous? The odds of that being your strongest work seem pretty low.

*"Would it change your mind about the big drums all the way through if I said this was for film trailers? I'm not saying it should... "*

Not mine... yes I do feel the same.

The piece hit me as "loud" but not necessarily effective for trailer music. And not necessarily effective for Epics (IMO) in part because of it being loud the whole time. The most impressive epic stuff usually has a lot more texture (subtleties), more dynamics, thicker, and a stronger theme. The theme for me was fairly buried. Makes me wonder if you aren't thinking too much about EIS and not enough about a plain "hooky" theme. 

if you are wanting to write for trailers I feel you need to come at it with a much stronger more focused (fresh) approach. There are some dudes that rip hard at it already and are coming at it with a fresh interesting sound.

My honest opinion. 


(if no one agrees, no worries... just one dude's opinion  )


----------



## rJames (Oct 19, 2006)

All opinions accepted, Kid.

FYI, EIS and epic are not two styles that I am abivalent about. EIS is a course that I'm taking to learn how to write better. I'm just trying to nail a style (in my own way). Your input will get me there.

This piece is very diatonic and very different from EIS (as a general rule).

I am trying to write a good epic cue because it will be recorded by an orchestra if it is good enough. What I always try to be is different and I hope that shows through.

I love the feedback (critcism) as tough as it can get. That will make me better.

I am surprised that you can't hear the theme (or that its buried).

the piece starts out with 1,2,5,5 and then repeats 1,2,5,5 and that theme (maybe more correctly motif) is in virtually all of the measures. Even doubled with a parallel 5th in the finale. (orchestral power chords?)

But this is exactly why I like to post and get feedback. Cause everyone hears it differently.

Everyone has said, "too much percussion." I am going to go over it again with that in mind.


----------



## Jackull (Oct 19, 2006)

sir rjames,

the piece doesn't really feel like epical IMO. the theme is pretty strong & simple enough to remember, however the constant drum rolls & rhythms over powered the main theme as you pay much attention to the big sounds than the motif itself. 
for me epic sound means more brass & choirs.

it is pretty modal in eis way. would like to hear how you revise it. please repost the revision & the original if you can...

jackULL


----------



## kid-surf (Oct 19, 2006)

I probably should have put it a different way....


I can "hear" the theme, I just don't know how exciting/interesting it is presented this way. Buried -- meaning it never quite "pops" for me (not sure a live orchestra would change that for me) and it probably has something to do with the percussion.

I also think of Epic as having brass.

True, we all hear things differently, so, my comments are only as good as they're worth. Which is...????  If it's very close to what you heard in your head then I suppose it's "right".

Anyway... hope that gives you another perspective.

Epic is a tough nut to crack effectively........


----------



## midphase (Oct 19, 2006)

I don't think the piece would lend itself to a Trailer, and even if it was, the drums are still too much.

It has a Disney feel....EPCOT to be specific. If you've ever been there you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

Words that come to mind are "glorious", "uplifting", "energetic" and so on. Epic is not one of them.

Epic is such a relative term anyway....so don't take anything that I say very seriously!

I hate plugging my own crap....but if you go to my web site, take a listen to the tracks:

"Ancient Epic" and "Action Epic" in the Audio Reels:Videogames section, I'm not saying that they're "epic" to ya all....but I guess in my mind it's what I personally would think as epic.

PS.
Boy, I just realized how crappy the Flash mp3 player compression is.....personal memo....must do something about that!


----------



## paoling (Oct 20, 2006)

Hi James, I' m listening carefully your piece... And I' d like to have a mixer in front of me to adjust the level of the various parts... I like the thematic changes, the percussion part (mediaventures' style), but I' d like to highlight the various moments, to create a sort of contrast between the strings quiet moments, and the brass + percussion parts...

Anyway I liked it :D


----------



## Frederick Russ (Oct 20, 2006)

Hey Ron - very nice! You keep it melodic and the orchestration per instrument section stays out of the way of each other which gives you a lot of space for everything. 

Be careful with the fast string lines - they were pretty much what gave it away as being sampled. If possible integrate string trems so there is some randomness in the line performance. Some dynamic drops (like stopping the drums for a moment of quiet introspection) would be very cool and would help frame the moment when you start them back for the climax of the piece.

Well done! I like the production overall - keep it up.


----------



## rJames (Oct 22, 2006)

Here is the revision. I didn't do woodwinds and I should have.

But I'm not sure the song has much of a future and I'm ready to move on.

I did take out a lot of the perc and had to replace it with some other stuff.

http://digitmusic.net/music/Heroes2v2.mp3 (Heroes2v2)


----------



## PaulR (Oct 23, 2006)

I think that's good - probably too good for trailer music in some ways. And by that I'm not talking about samples, because there are occasions where the strings sound even a little too synthy for even me - some of the runs. The trumpets may or may not need to be lifted in the mix and made more prominent.

But the plan is good and it is epic sounding. Some of your changes in there are interesting but maybe should be more obvious through the mix. In other words - if you've got it, flaunt it. do you have epic Horns from VSL btw - I think I may hear them.


----------



## Sean Beeson (Oct 23, 2006)

That is alot more epic. You have a nice brass sound.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Oct 23, 2006)

I like it. Well done Ron! Writing is really nice - melodic? What a welcome change! Keep it up.


----------



## Jackull (Oct 23, 2006)

very nice sir james. main theme got more emphasize & the transitions got also more dramatic as the percussion enters the big changes. only comment, the strings is a little too synthy imo. maybe replace it with flutes run or doubling it. see how it works. other than that it sounds more epical heroic now 
good job... keep up

jackULL


----------



## SvK (Nov 14, 2006)

RJames...

Certainly...Able:

critique:

2 much Harmony....... Epic is akin to anthem......Anthems are scored LEAN.

(fanfare for common man.....dances with wolves)


Let the horn melodies soar ..unharmonised......It will make it more Epic.....and more memorable to the listener..


Jerry Goldsmith quote: "You quickly learn , that unison is the strongest sound you can make."

Good piece....just expose the melodies....if everything is "thick soup", it turns into bad accompaniment where nothing shines through...


To me "Epic" is BIG sounds scored LEAN....it also means BIG silences.....



SvK


----------



## Lex (Nov 28, 2006)

I like the ending..

Alex


----------

