# You just purchased a new library for your collection, it has 17,000 new patches. How do you manage it?



## SippinOnFlowers (Apr 28, 2020)

As dumb as this may seem this is probably my biggest struggle in music production. Even though I mark my favorite instruments all the time I still insist on finding the best patch for my song and because I have so many different patches I end up spending hours just sorting through all the different ones.

So I was curious how do you go about managing tons of patches, because the annoying part is that you always know that there are hidden gems within all of that mess, but you have to spend hours and even days just to sort through all the average and bad patches. Is the best solution to just delete all of them? lol.


----------



## Rob (Apr 28, 2020)

My solution is: stay with one library until you really know it inside out. At that point you know by heart its patches and what to use. Then work on another library and do the same. Basically, I try to limit the quantity of libraries that I use, while I keep buying new stuff and explore to see if it can be admitted to the "usable" category.


----------



## JohnG (Apr 28, 2020)

Rob's advice is good.

I don't know of any substitute besides going through each patch and deciding what stays and goes. Print the patch list and make hand notes -- I do that sometimes.


----------



## Polkasound (Apr 28, 2020)

Your struggle is one that a lot of us know well. I once estimated the total number of patches I have with all my libraries combined, and it was somewhere close to 40,000. It hinders workflow, but the way I see it, it's also a wonderful problem to have.

When I'm creating a new song and have ideas in mind for the sounds I want, I know which libraries to go to, and I have an idea which categories to look under, but the auditioning of patches simply takes time. Luckily a lot libraries make progressing through its patches easy, such as proving arrow buttons that let you select a consecutive patches with one click.


----------



## Henu (Apr 28, 2020)

I don't manage.


----------



## Living Fossil (Apr 28, 2020)

The your conquest for the perfect sound is a common diversionary tactic among people who in fact rather avoid the direct confrontation with the music they are working on.
Sometimes it's not the sound, but the "perfect EQ setting" or the "perfect analog emulated compressor" or the perfect hifi-cables.
More than anything else it's an excuse.

Nevertheless, to answer your question:

It's good saving favourites in different categories. I utilize a lot of folders for this.
And another thing is the ability to tweak sounds that aren't perfect.

But if it's "the right sound" that hinders your track from being great, the problem is probably not the sound.


----------



## Living Fossil (Apr 28, 2020)

Another advice is to reverse the process.

Which means:

When you buy a new library or a new soundset, always create a project when you *first* go through the sounds.
If you like a sound, quite often this happens while you play a pattern.
So my advice is:
Record the pattern (don't care about timing etc.).
Then duplicate the instrument and put the recorded pattern on this track.
So it's sure you won't lose the constellation.
Then continue going through the sounds.
Repeat as often as you like.

It's good to bounce these snippets, so you can listen easily to them without relying on closing and opening projects.

I have a folder for these kinds of explorations called "soundsuche" (2search for sounds") inside the "ideas" folder.

It's really important to do it when you *first *go through the sounds. The second time the magic or the idea often is gone.


----------



## Geomir (Apr 28, 2020)

Did you just buy Hollywood Strings?


----------



## synergy543 (Apr 28, 2020)

Make a google spreadsheet of the patches you like an comment on them. This makes it easy to come back to your favorites so you don't spend all of your time hunting and pecking.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Apr 28, 2020)

I noticed that my tendency when shopping for sound libraries has become to avoid the ones with excessive amounts of presets and patches. I MUCH MUCH rather buy a library that has maybe only a handful of patches/presets, but this handful is realy good, inspiring and makes me want to use it. I consider my time precious and going through hundreds of presets is counter-productive.

I want the library authors do the work for me by giving me what's worth my while. In a library I want to shop for the few home runs as opposed to having all the options in the world. (I still have tons of options, because the collection of libraries is only growing!)


----------



## MarcHedenberg (Apr 28, 2020)

Just write the track. The arrangement is king. If you've got interesting parts/lines, then even a mediocre-sounding library will sound decent, especially if you also have some mix knowledge (e.g. automation, tone saturation, EQing, multipressing, panning, general mix balance).

Once you've written the actual composition, as in it's fully done, you can then fiddle with swapping out one patch for another to your heart's content if you really insist (which might entail re-recording), but the music itself is there. It's just fine-tuning the project at that point.

I think it's more helpful when choosing patches to let your decision-making be driven by what articulation and instrument you need.


----------



## NekujaK (Apr 28, 2020)

Don't obsess with perfection and embrace happy accidents.

I think I mentioned in another thread, that the Randomize Patch List button is my favorite feature in Omnisphere. Between Omnisphere's massive core patches plus the dozens of third party patches I've added, I literally have well over 17,000 Omni patches. There's no way I'm going to memorize all of them, or even a significant portion of them.

And yet, 95% of the time, I can find the right patch for the job just by zeroing on the category I want, randomizing the resulting patch list, then going thru them quickly one by one. Usually within 20-30 patches I can find a suitable sound. Is it perfect? Sometimes. Does it work? Yes. Do I find patches that are even better than what I initially thought I wanted? Often.

I used to obsess over finding/crafting the perfect sound, but as Living Fossil pointed out, that's never the problem to begin with, and if I did happen to find the "perfect sound", it was never the solution, either.

Throughout history, the most brilliant composers have crafted outstanding memorable music using the same set of instruments over and over again. Sometimes a cool new sound can add a special flair, but ultimately, what audiences connect with are melodies, emotion, and groove. A great song is still great even with average sounds, and a crappy song is still crappy even when the most amazing patches are applied to it.


----------



## X-Bassist (Apr 28, 2020)

I agree with Living Fossil about checking your track first. Traditionally (in the last century) composers worked on a piano. The reason was to not allow the player or the orchestration slow the creation process. The piano has the widest range, so when I composed years ago on piano I would hear it as a flute line or a brass line, but forcused on the notes and timing and feel. The orchestration could be a secondary process. Nowadays people get so wound up in finding the right sound, that it can keep them from writing, from creating the "first version". If you haven't, try creating a piece with just the piano to get the parts down, then switch instruments (and refine the performance) to see if your ideas don't continue to improve.

But back to patches. Some synths, like Omnisphere do have a rating system, and I use it. Because of the 14,000 patches (and my few thousand third party patches) it takes some time, but when I picked up Omni 2 I was able to get through the factory patches in about two weeks, leaving the many (as you say) bad patches unmarked, then rating the ones I like (5 star for "I'll def be looking for that", 4 "Could be very useful", 3 "Useful patch", 2 "good basic patch", 1"I might use it"). Honestly I wish someone had a 10 star system, I think I could hit pretty close to useable and unusable patches (some, like UHe or Sample Logic, only have one star). About a third of the omni patches for me are zero stars, so that pushes a third of the library to the bottom of the ratings list when I search. After adding my third party stuff, I've probably got 10 percent or less 5 star. and 4 or 3's I go through regularly, but I only go lower when I'm in a pinch. I can get through patches quickly when they are bad, but often need a little more time when they are good. The two weeks on Omni2 was 6 to 8 hours a day of listening. So it adds up. 

As far as Kontakt patches, I do go through each library when I buy it. Put together a templete of that library (starting with an empty Kontakt templete) Just loading the patches I like, arranged by instrument category, Then save each category as a preset. So when I'm writing or arranging I can load in my favorite trumpets first, then move down the list and add others if I want to keep searching. Again getting to know your libraries is key. So it helps to write at least one piece with a new library to get to know it. Then when your looking at a templete or a preset, you know what your looking at.

Needless to say (though many forget) labeling, organizing, having an order that makes sense to you is crucial. Because more time is wasted "finding THAT patch" in music than should be acceptable. There are ways to speed up the process in your workflow, especially if you are loading one Kontakt instance at a time and assigning midi channels. Build a templete that's empty, then use that to build your library templetes, then use those to build your section templetes. Pulling tracks form those to build your song tracks is a way to keep things moving along when the iron is hot.

Eventually you will gravitate toward one library or another, but you will keep changing, because there is no perfect library for every style or section. But I often go back to an old library to grab that one patch that hasn't be improved on, yet.

As I said at first, try to simplify your writing process when creating (like using a piano to write) then get to know your libraries and keep notes on which do well for a special sound or section. THen when you're writing, you have ideas of which library to try first. Sometimes my notes are wrong when I apply a patch to a song, but is a starting point and I get a better understanding of how the patches work or don't work in a layered song. It's all an education I couldn't get any other way.

All the best on your patch travels!


----------



## VladK (Apr 28, 2020)

Create spreadsheet with separate sheet per library, and put timestamped notes there every time you work with library. You will notice that with time you will start to revise your earlier comments.
If you have many libraries, create separate spreadsheet per instrument, i.e. one for piano, one for guitar, drums, vocals, strings, orchestra, etc.
And keep separate spreadsheet with summarized notes where you put what you would prefer to use for what. I would also put specific favorite presets there as well.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 28, 2020)

I don't use any spreadsheets, checklists, or any method other than the Mac's file system to sort, categorize, rename, and mark favorites.

I absolutely DO listen to every single instrument in a newly purchased library. Right then and there. Get it out of the way. Here is my process for Kontakt libraries:

1 - Duplicate the Instruments folder, so I can wreak havoc on the copy while leaving the originals intact.

2 - Zip the original Instruments folder into a compressed archive so it does not clutter things up. Stash it in the Documents folder which is inside most Kontakt library folders (where the manuals etc. are kept).

3 - Listen to every single Instrument. Any that I don't think I will use I delete immediately.

4 - For the ones that I do like, I rename them to conform to my preferred naming scheme (discussed at length in other threads / posts), and rename / reorganize the sub folders they live in if needed.

5 - Open Kontakt's QuickLoad window and put the ones I really, REALLY like into the appropriate sub folders in there. This may be anywhere from 10% - 100% of the Instruments that I kept from the original set. 

Since I've been sorting samples for 35+ years I don't really waffle on whether I keep or delete things - I kind of know what will be useful for the kind of music I make. 

For libraries of synth patches, I delete and don't look back. I don't keep an archived copy of the original. I do make a duplicate before I begin the deletion process, just in case I accidentally delete something, but once I've got the library reduced, renamed, and sorted I delete the safety copy - permanently.

For hybrid libraries, like for instance Omnisphere banks that have both sample content and patches that may refer to those samples, this is what I do:

1 - Make a safety copy.

2 - Install the ".omnisphere" file, or drag the patches into a new subfolder in the appropriate location in the STEAM folder.

3 - Open the STEAM folder on the desktop so I can see and manipulate the contents as I go. View in List mode.

4 - Using the standalone version of Omnisphere, audition every single multi, patch, and sample file, flipping over to the desktop to delete each one I don't like as I go - but NOT deleting the sample content as the same samples may be used by multiple patches. Multis are self-contained, so you can freely delete single patches without wrecking Multis.

5 - For patches I keep, I flip over to the desktop and rename them as I go. 

6 - Once the multis and patches have been culled, I go into an Init Patch and audition all of the sample content. For any that I want to keep, I save a patch that refers to that sample content, and give it a name that refers to that sample content's name.

7 - I mostly leave the original category folders as-is, and I rename patches in the following format:

[Three-letter category abbreviation] - [two-letter manufacturer code] - [patch name]

This results in patch names like "ARP BAS - TS - Badonk" and "AMB - RD - Megasweep". This way every list will show patches sorted by type, then developer, then name.

8 - Once things are reduced and renamed, I re-export / "share" the library to a new .omnisphere document. This includes only the multis and patches that I haven't deleted, but most importantly, it will NOT include any sample content that is not needed by those few patches that were kept. I give this exported file a tidy name that refers to the original developer and library title.

9 - Manually delete from the STEAM folder all of the folders containing the multis, patches, and sample content from the original import.

10 - Import the "smallified" .omnisphere document that I just saved. Now I have a tidy, compact set of multis, patches, and samples that only contain the stuff I wanted to keep - and most importantly the sample content has been reduced in size to only contain those samples which are used by the patches I kept.

Now I can view each collection all by itself from Omnisphere's browser pull-downs, or view every patch across all collections in one huge list, but everything will be sorted by Category, then Developer/Library, and finally Preset Name. This lets me scroll through all the ARP BAS patches, developer by developer and library by library, without things getting all mixed together too badly.

While working I also create "Projects" in the Omnisphere browser and use the "star" rating system to mark favorites and collect them into project-specific bricks.


----------



## JohnG (Apr 28, 2020)

Charlie, you are so disorganized.


----------



## jcrosby (Apr 28, 2020)

I tried the spreadsheet thing early on it became impossible to mange so the reality is you need to find what works for you.. Since production music (in a bunch of genres) is the bulk of my work I have to take a broader approach, depending on how/what you work on some of this might be useful.

Similar story with Kontakt... Quickload, I organize mine with a few parent folders.

_Developer_ (Only non-player instruments here.)
_Instrument & Genre _(Subfolders for both. Some player patches allowed, but only _first call_ stuff.)
_Projects _(Subfolders as needed. Same story, mostly QL, only first call player patches.)

I organize my Kontakt 5 QL folder 1st, then copy and paste any new additions to the Kontakt 6 QL folder using finder.

For Omnisphere I also audition when I get a new library. My method is to use _edit tags _and add my own keywords to the _description_. Developing a very specific and unique set of keywords is critical, you want as little irrelevant content showing up when searching. I rate the good ones then add the really stand out patches to project files. I have a few staple production libraries so I have folders for Each, I also have a few genres always in rotation and have folder those as well. I also have some niche folders for scoring-based stuff as well...

I also frequently spend time on my off days just tagging and quickloading so when it's time to write I don't have to spend time hunting. With Omnisphere this is especially important as it can be a vortex if you don't stay on top of it.


----------



## pmcrockett (Apr 28, 2020)

I'm in the process of trying to wrangle Hollywood Strings into something that will be a joy to use instead of a nightmare, which involves rebalancing mics, setting default routing, adjusting velocity response, and creating custom CC11 mappings to enforce consistent behavior across patches. It's been taking way longer than I expected it to, and just today I finally made a spreadsheet to keep track of what I was doing.

And realized that I've fixed 594 patches and mixed 1386 mic positions. _And that's not even all of the total Hollywood Strings patches_. I would never have started if I'd realized that this was where I'd end up, but I do at least feel less bad about not writing any music this week.


----------



## X-Bassist (Apr 29, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> I don't use any spreadsheets, checklists, or any method other than the Mac's file system to sort, categorize, rename, and mark favorites.
> 
> I absolutely DO listen to every single instrument in a newly purchased library. Right then and there. Get it out of the way. Here is my process for Kontakt libraries:
> 
> ...


Good process for cutting down patches. My only question, what do you do when developers update the libraries and want to overwrite your instruments folder or the entire library?

I hate keeping multiple sets of instruments, but sometimes will add a version number(1.5 and 1.6 for symphobia for example) before it updates. But with some updaters, it just overwrites the entire library automatically.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 29, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Good process for cutting down patches. My only question, what do you do when developers update the libraries and want to overwrite your instruments folder or the entire library?
> 
> I hate keeping multiple sets of instruments, but sometimes will add a version number(1.5 and 1.6 for symphobia for example) before it updates. But with some updaters, it just overwrites the entire library automatically.



This has become a minor annoyance - when the dev pushes a new set of Insts then I have to repeat the renaming and culling process. But since my renaming logic is pretty fixed, I don't need to keep a "translation table" or anything, I just sigh and grind through it. I can look at the incoming instrument names and mentally translate them to my naming scheme on the fly and just blast through them, and I can look at my previous "kept" folder to see which ones to keep and which ones to discard.

It's not as confusing as it sounds. My naming scheme is pretty much set in stone. It does annoy me when the dev creates instrument names that are too long to fit in the width of the name panel in loaded Kontakt instruments - like, did they even check that? Nobody saw that the name was 9 characters longer than the panel? Like.... duh.

I always rename the original instruments folder with a version number, then duplicate it, then zip it and stash the zip, then get down to renaming the duplicate - even on the initial version. So I repeat that process when updates are pushed. As a result I have like six versions of the instruments folders (including the initial one) for some libraries where the dev keeps pushing updates. But these are small so I just keep 'em. And since they are zipped they don't get scanned when doing a batch re-save or whatever.


----------



## bcarwell (Apr 29, 2020)

synergy543 said:


> Make a google spreadsheet of the patches you like an comment on them. This makes it easy to come back to your favorites so you don't spend all of your time hunting and pecking.



You anticipated the same response I was going to offer. I have just completed a Google Sheets spreadsheet of all my libraries with hotlinks to their Help support/chat/manual, vendor name, purchase date and price, vendor name, library abbreviation, general characteristics (ensemble, multis, limited articulations, best instruments, wet/dry, room etc. etc.) and one column listing go-to best patches. Sheets is FREE and VERY rich in function (instant alphabetization of any column, key word search, colorizable, very user friendly)- took only total of an hour to get very facile with it.
With that success I now intend to make a similar Sheets spreadsheet for each library focusing on the patches one library at a time as Rob has suggested. Wish I had done so when I first started purchasing libraries. In Cubase you no doubt know there is an internal database you can create and customize with metadata, etc. Plus is you can instantly load the patch from it. But I find it much less user friendly and feature rich than Sheets. Sure wish you could load patches from Sheets though directly into Cubase.
Good time with Covid to be doing this. May the Force be with you...

Bob


----------



## SippinOnFlowers (Apr 29, 2020)

Thank you everyone, plenty of great advice!! I think I'll end up going with the tedious approach of sorting through every single patch and deleting all the bad ones, but I'll definitely try to utilize a spreadsheet in the future! also I've now been inspired to try and orchestrate a full piece with a piano first, before arranging it with other instruments.

But I'm not sure how would you go about it because duplicate notes would be pretty hard to notice with the piano, especially if you have like 6 at a time. But maybe it's not an issue? And also maybe previewing the piece in it's entirety with the piano is not the point anyways?

I guess you could also just use a few, slightly different piano patches to circumvent this (or just write the song entirely in 8 bit). Either way though I like that idea a lot since it forces you to focus on one task at a time, making each part of the process far more efficient!


----------



## MoeWalsaad (May 8, 2020)

I'm familiar with your struggle, but I have a tip to share, that may help.

once every while, I enjoy spending a night exploring libraries, and as I'm browsing the patches, I midi record whatever that patch inspires me to play, I record very rough drafts, no structure, no tempo, full of mistakes. most of the recordings are between 10 seconds to 3 mins.

each time I record something, I export it as a Wav file with the library and Patch name written in the title
I have hundreds of these files, once every while I enjoy listening to these files, and wonder which of these drafts deserve to be developed and which ones needs to be wiped out.

that way you get familiar with the patches, and you come up with ideas that are out of the box.


----------



## Andy_P (May 31, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> I don't use any spreadsheets, checklists, or any method other than the Mac's file system to sort, categorize, rename, and mark favorites.
> 
> I absolutely DO listen to every single instrument in a newly purchased library. Right then and there. Get it out of the way. Here is my process for Kontakt libraries:
> 
> ...





Hi Charlie,

Thank you so much for the tips.

How do you go for Kontakt Libraries that has only one instrument but hundreds of patches in the plugin itself as they cannot be saved as QuickLoad? Like Heavyocity NOVO, Output stuff etc.

Best,
Andy


----------



## vitocorleone123 (May 31, 2020)

This is one reason why I like synthesis instead of samples - as in, starting to make my own patches.

By the time I finish going through all the Omni patches, it'll be 2027 and Omni 3 will be out with 20k more patches. I have more patches and presets in my software instruments than I could ever possibly get through - at least if I still want to actually try and make music rather than catalog and sort things.

I usually browse around a bit during a session, flagging things if the software allows it, then I either get bored and move to some other instrument/synth/library, or find something I like and start trying to build on it rather than continuing to browse.


----------



## Ivan M. (May 31, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> This is one reason why I like synthesis instead of samples... I usually browse around a bit during a session



Speaking of synths, same here, and usually 99% of the patches arent even close to what I need at the moment. And those that are, usually have some stupid modulation that I don't know how to turn off! :D


----------



## charlieclouser (May 31, 2020)

Andy_P said:


> Hi Charlie,
> 
> Thank you so much for the tips.
> 
> ...



As you said, some Kontakt libraries are supplied with just a single .nki Instrument file but with a zillion snapshots, and some (like the excellent Sample Logic libraries) have a custom built-in content browser that allows you do individually browse, audition, and select the sample content for each of the four layers and / or for the global, effects, and sequencer sections as well.

If a library just uses NI Snapshots to organize "presets" within a single .nki, then I just make a new user Snapshots folder for that instrument, and either copy the entire factory set into that new folder and start deleting the ones I don't like, or maybe just go through the factory set and save the ones I DO like into that user folder. I try to keep my user folder separate from the factory set so that if an update gets installed it can replace the factory set without wrecking my list of favorites.

For a product that uses a custom-built browser, like Sample Logic stuff, sometimes they have a system in that custom browser for tagging favorites with a little "heart" icon or something, and if they do I'll definitely use that as I audition the content for the individual layers or whatever. In the case of a library like Sample Logic's Gamelan, there is a folder called "Presets" that contains further sets of folders containing .nka files that represent the items that appear in the various custom browsers within the UI. I've tried digging into those folders to create user-favorites folders, renaming and moving items around, but the changes I make never show up in the custom browser. I don't know how to force the Instrument to re-scan those folders, other than by quitting Kontakt and re-loading the Instrument, but the changes I've made never show up. Maybe it uses a factory-provided database or list file that populates the custom browser with the item names, and the individual .nka files are not intended to be renamed and rearranged by the user? In any case, I reckon that it's probably a little risky to muck around in there, and this is definitely something that will get replaced when installing an update to the library, so.... maybe a Kontakt Jedi like @EvilDragon will know how to do it, or tell us that it's a bad idea to mess with those files?

So for those libraries I just use the method above for saving Snapshots of the entire front-panel to my own set of user Snapshots folders. Even though that saves the entire Instrument's status, including the sound sources for all four layers, the effects and sequencer setups, etc., it's still a useful way of saving a "finished sound". Although it would be nice to be able to really mess with those per-layer .nka files to create a user-favorite set of the per-layer elements. Not a deal-breaker though either way.


----------



## EvilDragon (Jun 1, 2020)

I don't own any SL libraries so can't help much there.

However as to the question posed by Andy_P, one way of going about it would be simply loading every snapshot then resaving it as NKI. You can then add this to quickload. Macro recorder software highly recommended!


----------



## charlieclouser (Jun 1, 2020)

Well, @EvilDragon the situation with some of the Sample Logic libraries is a little different. There is a single .nki and the UI has a custom browser built-in, with multiple levels for which patches can be browsed: 

- At the highest level, browsing patches is basically the same as Snapshots - they recall the status of all controls in the UI, including what sound source is chosen for each of the four layers, the status of the step sequencer + modulators page, and a global set of effects. No issue there, as a saved Snapshot can recall everything that the built-in browser can. Think of these as if they were "multis" in a Korg workstation keyboard - four individual presets with an automatable X-Y pad to mix between them, routed through a global effects rack and with an array of step sequencers that can be routed to any destination among the four sources.

- The next level down, however, is where you can browse from categorized lists for the sound sources for each of the four layers in a preset. These are not just a sample map; each source brings with it complex modulation, tuning, effects + filter settings, etc. Think of these as if they were the individual presets that make up a multi in a Korg workstation - they each have two sample maps and a single shared set of filters and modulators, and a small selection of effects like distortion, saturation, etc.

- Then there are browsers for the individual settings files for the step sequencer + modulators page, and another for the global effects rack.

All of the items that appear in each of those levels of browser are present in the library folders as .nka files (are these "array" files or what? I dunno.), but renaming / moving these files is not reflected in the custom browsers in the UI. And for all except the highest level, it doesn't make sense to use Snapshots to store them since the custom browser lets you pick elements for just one of the four layers at a time, without disturbing your carefully-set-up other three layers. 

You DO have the ability to save a custom edit of these elements to disc, but they wind up as .nka files in Users>Documents>Gamelan instead of within the actual Gamelan library folder itself - which is good from the standpoint of updates being pushed, since installing an update to the library will not wipe your custom-saved items - but they do not appear in the custom browser within the UI. You can only load and save them from disc using little buttons in the UI and dealing with standard open/save dialogs, but not browse them within the normal tagged custom browser, and you can't edit / rename / delete / move the stock items which do show up in the browser. 

So you can just take the time to roll through all of the factory items and save out your favorites, but you won't be able to use the slick browser that Sample Logic went to so much trouble to implement, and won't be able to use next + previous buttons, etc. Not a total disaster, but an irritation nonetheless.

It appears that the custom browser is populated with a list of the factory .nka files, but is not actually scanning their names from disc, which is a little weird - but maybe I'm just not doing whatever needs to be done to force the instrument to re-scan the directories containing the factory .nka files and re-populate its custom browser lists with the contents of those folders. 

If I knew the secret to that, I could really mess up the instrument by removing / renaming / moving the factory .nka files to show only my favorites. Risky, but you know me... Of course one could make a .zip of the factory items before running amok so you could get back to the stock load after you ruin everything, and of course your newly small-ified list will be ignoring gigabytes of sample content which you can't eliminate, so it's not like you'll be saving disc space, only reducing clutter and unwanted items in the custom browsers, and allowing for user-specified names for those items while still having them show in the custom browser instead of forcing you to manually load them one at a time from disc. 

Not the end of the world, but one of those things I wish I knew how to control.


----------



## EvilDragon (Jun 1, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> (are these "array" files or what? I dunno.)



Yep, they are. Basically only used by KSP, and nothing else. That's why you can't put them in the database or QL.



charlieclouser said:


> but renaming / moving these files is not reflected in the custom browsers in the UI



File browser widget in KSP is only refreshed when you reopen the NKI, it does not respond to any changes in its structure while the NKI is opened.



charlieclouser said:


> You DO have the ability to save a custom edit of these elements to disc, but they wind up as .nka files in Users>Documents>Gamelan instead of within the actual Gamelan library folder itself - which is good from the standpoint of updates being pushed, since installing an update to the library will not wipe your custom-saved items - but they do not appear in the custom browser within the UI. You can only load and save them from disc using little buttons in the UI and dealing with standard open/save dialogs, but not browse them within the normal tagged custom browser, and you can't edit / rename / delete / move the stock items which do show up in the browser.



Yeah, this is by design of load_array()/save_array() commands in KSP, which for Kontakt Player libraries do save their stuff in Documents folder, rather than Data folder at the same level where NKR is, but then the file browser widget in KSP can only be pointed at a single base path, which is usually the folder that contains all the NKAs that you can see there. There are also load_array_str()/save_array_str() commands which allow saving NKAs to a specific path on the hard drive, which is what SL should have used in this situation in order to show your user presets in the very same file browser on the GUI (after that tedious NKI reload, of course).



charlieclouser said:


> It appears that the custom browser is populated with a list of the factory .nka files, but is not actually scanning their names from disc, which is a little weird



This is impossible, to my knowledge. File browser in KSP is explicitly linked to one basepath and will scan everything within that path, it cannot be programatically told which files to include and display (apart from choosing if it will show NKAs, or MIDI files, or WAV/NCW files). So it's a matter of finding what this basepath is (shouldn't be too complicated, if the script is not locked, look for $CONTROL_PAR_BASEPATH and see where it points to), then putting your NKAs in a subfolder in that path. Then on the next NKI reload you should be able to see them there.


Which SL library is in question, btw?


----------



## Andy_P (Jun 1, 2020)

Thank You so much for the detailed explanation Charlie.

Best,
Andy


----------



## charlieclouser (Jun 1, 2020)

Thanks for all the detailed info @EvilDragon - now I feel like I understand how the SL custom browsers work. SL use these in-UI browsers for a lot of their titles, they obviously spent a lot of time building their four-layer, X-Y pad mixable, step-sequencable, user-tag browse-able UI and they have deployed it on a bunch of their more expensive titles by simply changing the underlying sample content, creating new .nka files specific to that content, and giving the UI a cosmetic re-skin to suit. 

CineMorphX, the Cinematic Guitars series (in the recent re-do they issued), Motion Keys, Morphestra2, Gamelan, and maybe a couple of others I've missed. It seems they only use this on the more "playable" (and expensive) libraries and not the ones that are primarily phrase-based or sequencer/arpeggiator based. It's more useful on something like Morphestra2 or Cinematic Guitars where there's just a ton of pad/ambience/texture sample maps that you want to layer, effect, and X-Y mix. It actually is a pretty great implementation of a very complex custom UI, so I'm not at all mad that they keep rolling it out in different titles with new sample content under the same UI - saves you the trouble of relearning where everything is. 

Now that you've told me that the file browser widget in KSP does refresh upon loading the .nki I will do some more testing to see if we are able to mess with the contents of the factory .nka set and see those changes reflected in the custom browser. But in my first round of experimentation I did close the instrument (but not quit Kontakt standalone), and then duplicate + rename + move some of the factory .nka items to new user-created folders within the factory directories, and then reloaded the .nki but I didn't see those changes reflected in the custom browser - and so I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that it was not possible to make changes to the factory directory structure and have those changes reflected in the browser. I will do more testing to determine whether this is possible.

Either way it's not the end of the world, but in the interest of thoroughness it would be nice if one could have complete control over those elements, as opposed to having the in-UI browser act like a "ROM bank" with any user settings needing to be stored across the hall and up on a shelf. Then I could roll through the factory .nka's, delete+move+rename the items to create a "greatest hits" list, and work from that condensed list. I understand why this might be risky however - I'm not sure if the top-level .nka's (the ones that are equivalent to whole-UI Snapshots) *contain* the dependent settings, or actually need to find (by name) and load the lower-level .nka files on which they depend (individual presets for the four layers, sequencer, and effects). If the top-level .nka depends on the lower-level .nka files being in the right location with the right name then remodeling the lower-level directories would render many of the top-level .nka files inoperable. 

Similarly, I'm also unsure if ordinary Snapshots *contain* the lower-level settings, or if they *refer to* the lower-level .nka files and need them to have the correct name and be in the correct location. If the latter is the case then one could not safely use Snapshots to replace top-level .nka files and then play fast and loose with rearranging lower-level .nka's. 

In the end, there's not so many of the lower-level .nka files that you can't work fast until you've gone through them with a fine-toothed comb, and just using Snapshots to store your favorite finished patches as well as a few "good starting points" that refer to your favorite per-layer .nka files is an acceptable way to work. 

It's just fun to find out exactly how these things work. Being able to confidently wrangle those elements is valuable when operating in a hurry on a complex project.


----------



## EvilDragon (Jun 2, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Similarly, I'm also unsure if ordinary Snapshots *contain* the lower-level settings, or if they *refer to* the lower-level .nka files and need them to have the correct name and be in the correct location.



Snapshots simply contain everything in the patch. They don't reference any NKA files. Anything that is a persistent variable or array or UI control is stored in a snapshot.


----------



## Akarin (Jun 2, 2020)

Trevor Morris touches on that in his template videos. Basically, he has a section of his template named "to audit" or something like this where he chunks in the new stuff. He listens to it and then move the patch to its correct location in the template or discards it.


----------

