# Copyist fees



## rob morsberger (Jan 15, 2011)

Hi, I'm putting together a proposal for a cool orchestration gig but don't know how 
to budget for copyist fees. I've looked at a couple of union pdfs but I'd appreciate some help. Could someone ballpark for me...VERY generally....what I should budget for creation of score and parts...4 min songs, say 15 staves, 80-120 bars...for live performance.
Thanks so much!


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## JohnG (Jan 15, 2011)

It is extremely perilous to try to guess, in my (sad) experience. 

I know some good copyists, Rob, who could work long distance. PM me or email for contact info.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 15, 2011)

Rob, in my experience union scale is the price. A score page is four bars.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 15, 2011)

Disclaimer: I haven't hired copyists since before notation software took over.


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## rob morsberger (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks John and Nick. And for the thoughtful pms from kind folks.
For now I expect to do the score and parts prep myself. Just trying to create
a reasonable budget proposal. The union tables are perplexing me!


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## JJP (Jan 15, 2011)

For union work in the USA & Cananda, it depends on what kind of gig this is. Different rates have been negotiated for different media (live performance, sound recording, motion picture, live TV, et al.) Keep in mind that some rates like motion picture are lower than others based on the possibility of secondary payments or re-use payments down the road. (Think of it as deferred pay to keep upfront costs down.) If the work is non-union, there is no possibility for these secondary usage payments.

Billing is usually at a page rate for parts calculated as follows:
1st page = 8 lines
following pages = 10 lines each

Page rate is determined by the type of part such as keyboard, single line, divisi, choir, transposed or non-transposed, etc.

If the parts are for duplication, (i.e. violin parts), then the part is billed at the duplication rate which is generally 2x whatever the basic page rate. That way only one part is made, paid at double the rate and then multiple copies are printed.

Proofreading, taping, librarian services, and the like are billed hourly.

If more than one copyist or orchestrator are used, the supervisor gets 25% of the total cost of the job added on to his or her invoice to cover the extra work of coordinating the other people.

Also remember that union rates add on to the final bill a percentage for pension and a day rate or special formula for healthcare. This also applies to orchestration.

Finally, don't forget to put printing costs in your estimate, usually billed per printed page. Time, paper, ink, and printing & binding equipment all cost money.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions. I do a lot of this work.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 15, 2011)

I guess it's changed a lot since I last hired copyists (or did it myself on one job for another composer) - but the structure is still way behind the times!

Extracting parts and printing out a score are not what they used to be. And you can buy a really nice large-format printer for $500.


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## rob morsberger (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks so much JJP and Nick. Very kind.


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## JJP (Jan 16, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 15 said:


> I guess it's changed a lot since I last hired copyists (or did it myself on one job for another composer) - but the structure is still way behind the times!



Behind the times? In what way?


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## midphase (Jan 16, 2011)

rob morsberger @ Sat Jan 15 said:


> For now I expect to do the score and parts prep myself.



Ugh...I would seriously reconsider that, especially if you're working on a tight deadline. If this is not something that you're used to doing all the time, it can be extremely frustrating and time consuming.

There are plenty of guys (around here and around elsewhere) that you can work something out with. Economy is slow, people need work...so if you're willing the share a bit of the wealth I think you'll get a very good bang for the buck.


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## rob morsberger (Jan 16, 2011)

I so hear that Kays. We'll see how things unfold. One reason I want to make sure I budget properly for copyist fees is in case I really need to bring in the cavalry!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 16, 2011)

JJP, I mean the fee structure you described is based on what copying was before notation software. Transposing and part extraction are 1-click commands. Duplication is a matter of printing multiple copies, plus $.35 worth of paper, ink, and wear and tear on a printer.

Don't get me wrong - I know it's still a skill and I certainly am not dissing what copyists do.


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## midphase (Jan 16, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Jan 16 said:


> Depending on the score, copyists fees can run $30,000.



Yeah...meanwhile in the real world I know guys who use real orchestras, and hire orchestrators and copyists for much less than that (including studio fees).

It all depends on who you ask and what your situation (and theirs) is.


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## JJP (Jan 16, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 16 said:


> JJP, I mean the fee structure you described is based on what copying was before notation software. Transposing and part extraction are 1-click commands. Duplication is a matter of printing multiple copies, plus $.35 worth of paper, ink, and wear and tear on a printer.


Hi Nick,

I don't think you're disrespecting copyists, but I do think you have a less than clear sense of the actual work and why the rate structure is the way it is. If only I had a nickel for every time I was told, "You can do that in one click nowadays," for something that took hours. This usually comes from someone who based their knowledge of copying on what they read in software marketing promotions. Sadly, it falls about as short as "automatic orchestration" from sample libraries.

For extraction, some college kid will do it in one click and think it's good enough, but there is far more to deciding how to lay out a page so that it reads easily than letting the computer decide what font to use and where to put multimeasure rests. (I know the computer does more, but you get my point.)

As for transposing, sure the basic job of transposing the notes is done in one click, but actually laying out the part can be a whole different ballgame. Laying it out clearly on the page is where the real skill and work of copying have always been. Unfortunately computers aren't perfect at selecting enharmonics, deciding about courtesy accidentals, or figuring out how to handle strange stem and tie situations, and don't get me started on all the intricacies of proper spacing for sight-reading. All of these issues are brought forward again as a result of clicking "transpose", hence the slight bump in rate for creating a part that requires transposition.

If you've ever had to transpose a difficult, busy part in A concert with lots of accidentals and enharmonics for alto or bari sax, you quickly learn why the rate gets bumped. Just deciding the easiest key signature for sight reading can take some serious analysis.

Also, some composers, orchestrators, and arrangers still use pencil or pen so you can't always rely on the computer to do the thinking for you.

As for the duplication rate, you can think of it like this: You pay for the layout of the first part, you pay again for the second, anything after that is just billed at cost for time and material (ink, paper, tape, labor etc.) This works great for situations with one client where I'm delivering electronic files. They email the part around the world, use it in multiple recording situations on different continents, make small modifications, and never need to hire another copyist. They're happy to pay the 2x duplication rate. It saves them a ton in conjunction with the current technology.

I'm actually quite impressed at how well the current rates break down the process into billable, job-specific items. No, it's not perfect, but it's a pretty darn good and fair fit. 
o-[][]-o

A few interesting facts about printing:
1. Good artists' tape (the kind that folds well, doesn't break or lose adhesiveness but can still be removed without destroying the paper in an emergency) for taping parts and scores can run $6-$9 per 60 yard roll.

2. 9x12 or 9.5x12.5 sheets of heavy quality paper (the kind that doesn't flop over or make noise when turning pages and is of a color that reduces glare but has just the right contrast) usually require custom cuts and has to be special ordered.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 16, 2011)

Just so you know, JJP, I've copied lots and lots of parts. I do get all that!


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