# Are you an "arrogant" musician/composer?



## Guy Bacos (Mar 4, 2013)

(This subject can be applied in life in general, but I prefer if the answers revolved mainly around your musical career, discussions on forums, interactions with other fellow musicians, etc. I'm also not interested in the official definition of the word, just our every day general perception of the word)

1-The real question here is: What do you understand by "arrogant"? 

2-Is there such thing as healthy arrogance vs unhealthy arrogance?

3-Is arrogance misinterpreted too often? How so?

4-Would you work on a project with a great musician but who you think is arrogant in a way you find annoying? (your pay would be average to your other projects)

5-When you get a sense of somebody being arrogant, does it immediately turn you off? (again, you could specify how you perceive "arrogance")

6-Are you arrogant? Choose: Never, rarely, depends, often, all the time.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Mar 4, 2013)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> (This subject can be applied in life in general, but I prefer if the answers revolved mainly around your musical career, discussions on forums, interactions with other fellow musicians, etc. I'm also not interested in the official definition of the word, just our every day general perception of the word)
> 
> 1-The real question here is: What do you understand by "arrogant"?
> 
> ...



1. I'll go with the dictionary definition "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities".

2. No. Self-confidence is good and knowing what you know and being willing to say so is good but it must be tempered with humility, because someone else always knows more and no matter how good you are, someone is better.

3. On the net? Sure. You cannot see one's expression or hear his/her tone of voice so a lot gets lost.

4. Have and would. But the worse he treats me, the more money I ask for next time.

5. I may get annoyed initially but will give him more chances to alter that perception. In this forum, there re people who have won me over and some who I have even a lower estimate of over time.

6. Depends. I think in person I am far less arrogant than I come across on the net for the reasons I stated in #3. A composer can only be so arrogant, if he is not delusional, when there are guys like Pierre Boulez and John Williams in the word.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks jay.


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 4, 2013)

I am a bit arrogant, in that I'm pretty sure I'm right about music solutions for a given video project. 

I like to think of myself as a creative and aesthetic person, and I can tell when, for instance , a room isn't decorated well, but I couldn't tell you how it could be improved. 

When it comes to music for video, I know better than mere mortals what the right answer is, and I will tell anyone from my position of ultimate brilliant authority what solution(s) will work, and I will be happy to extend that into the sound design and mix as well. In that conversation I am comfortable confident and I know best. : )

In a recent series I scored I was asked what I thought of the sound design and mix. about ten episodes in I answered, and this was to the SVP creative and executive producer, "it sucks!, they suck, and you should fire them post haste" (strong note to follow ) I did this because the mix sucked, and they sucked at mixing and sound design, and the proof was in the pudding. I could see it and hear it, and I could easily tell what they were doing poorly. End of story. 

This isn't what happened of course, the execs all flew to meet with the video production company and audio team, who preceded to hand them the tired old rhetoric: "our mixes and sound design don't suck!! they're really goood!! who are you going to believe? US? or your lying ears!" 

Sorry I digress, but Arrogant? hell yes! self righteous too! It's the only arena where I feel I really know what's going on intuitively. 

Oh and ps. I wouldn't be so arrogant with the people who were paying my bills if I didn't know I was the only cog in the whole production that was delivering at 1000% of expectations. Everyone else is doing a mediocre to adequate job except me, their humble composer. (plus I know those guys pretty well or I'd keep my mouth shut) 

who said it? " I am the flea on the tail of the dog that is chasing the ambulance that is carrying this show"


----------



## cadalac (Mar 4, 2013)

I suppose (strongly) that it's better to be a little arrogant and competent than humble and incompetent. From what I've learned in my previous field of work, at the end of the day what really counts is that you can do your work. People will complain about things like arrogance / bad attitude etc, but if you can do your job well your usually fine.

Does arrogance bother me? Not at all.
Am I arrogant? I actually have no idea.


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 4, 2013)

cadalac @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> From what I've learned in my previous field of work, at the end of the day what really counts is that you can do your work.



That is, unless you are interested in rising to the top (think executive positions here), then the only skill set you'll want is the "rising to the top" skill, everything else will hinder your unfettered rise to the top. You won't want to snag your wings on the thorns of skills or knowledge, just hindrances to be avoided and foisted off on your underlings. I believe this to be true and i am an arrogant sob who won't even entertain other opinions on the subject.


----------



## Harzmusic (Mar 4, 2013)

I think there is a very thin line between strong self-confidence and arrogance. The difference between those two is sometimes hard to tell and one can lead to another.
I don't find it arrogant to think, that you are better at what you do than quite some other people. As a composer your product is what you do and it is necessary to believe in that product in order to sell it.
But it is arrogant to let that attitude control and affect the way you socialize. The apparent mindset of "I am very good at this and that, and therefore I am more important and a better person than you all" is what makes me think of a person as "arrogant". 
Other people might define that differently and think of people as 'arrogant' that I am totally ok with, after all it is an issue of perception.

For me, arrogance is a completely negative thing, it's when you lose your good judgement and think of yourself of someone better than you actually are. 
But I think (even though I haven't really experienced that myself) very high self-confidence close to arrogance can be very helpful when you have to work under very harsh conditions like extreme time pressure over a longer period of time. I guess this mindset can save you from giving up and losing faith in a production due to exhaustion.

Do I want to work with arrogant people? That depends on how they treat me. I don't want to be around people who treat me like I am any less worth than them. It is alright when they are better than me - I love to learn from skilled people. But I want the collaboration to be respectful, even if I am doing a 'less important' job.

Recently I have been dealing a lot with the question whether I am an arrogant person or not. I really try not to be arrogant and to always consider my weaknesses, but the risk to _appear_ arrogant is always there.
Last year I started my studies at a media school. I spend most of my time with people whose dream is, to work in the media industry and I've made some friends.
Being 18 years old, having worked on several short film soundtracks and preparing for the first feature length score I'm studying with media students of which some haven't even held a camera yet, eager to work on first projects.
It is hard to talk about what I do without feeling like I say "Look how much I do and how good I do it, and how few you have done so far". 
That's one of the reasons why I try to keep my music out of most non-business conversations (unless they are fellow musicians or really good friends).

If you talk a lot about what you do and it is almost the only thing you talk about, you will appear arrogant to others, I think, and that's something to avoid.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Mar 4, 2013)

Such arrogant responses! 

Just kidding! Great comments and good discussion. Looking forward to reading more.


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 4, 2013)

Guy,

I've heard you're music. You have earned the right to be (secretly and smugly) arrogant.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Mar 4, 2013)

Harzmusic @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> I think there is a very thin line between strong self-confidence and arrogance. The difference between those two is sometimes hard to tell and one can lead to another.
> I don't find it arrogant to think, that you are better at what you do than quite some other people. As a composer your product is what you do and it is necessary to believe in that product in order to sell it.



I am not a prefessional composer, but this statement rings true in any profession. I am quite good at teaching. My students make tremendous gains every year. I have had former students come back after graduating college and tell me that I was one of the few teachers that pushed them to become better people.

However, despite all of this I am always willing to try out new ideas about reaching struggling learners. I am also the first to admit that my writing program is my weak area. I am constantly looking for ways to improve how I approach teaching, not just in writing, but even the areas where I feel I do a great job.

Arrogance is believing you are right, and you may be, but you are absolutely unwilling to look at other point's of view.

Self-confidence is believing you are right, but also listening to other points of view. You can then either decide you are still right, or change your opinion.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Mar 4, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> Guy,
> 
> I've heard you're music. You have earned the right to be (secretly and smugly) arrogant.



Hehe, Yeah, I know I have streaming arrogance in my blood. However, I joined the GYM, hope to decrease my bad arrogant blood cells.


----------



## Dan Mott (Mar 4, 2013)

Do not like arrogant people. To me there is a huge difference between high confidence and arrogance.

I find arrogant people to be dismissive of others ideas and thoughts. The vibe you get off them isn't good, but it's in fact a huge negative for me. 

Arrogance isn't healthy at all IMO, but if I had to work with an arrogant person, knowing it could move me forward in my career, than so be it. 

Then you have those who are secretly arrogant, they try very hard not to show it, but you just know they secretly are. I know those people 

I'm definitely not arrogant. I hate to give off that vibe to someone I'd work with and I'm sure they wouldn't like it either.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Mar 4, 2013)

I try to be (arrogant)...but I can't pull it off. Life is too easy for me, I laugh way too much, nobody takes me seriously. 

I usually find that arrogant people are hiding their own fears and shortcomings.

Sometimes tho, a situation like one Stuart(reddognoyz) described occurs, and..I have to voice my opinion. If someone's mixes suck and are not trying to improve, I can't live with that.


----------



## RiffWraith (Mar 4, 2013)

_1-The real question here is: What do you understand by "arrogant"? _

I defer to Jay's answer above.

_2-Is there such thing as healthy arrogance vs unhealthy arrogance?_

Possibly. It can be healthy for you, if it helps you and your career. And it_ can_. But it can also hurt you and your career if you overdo it, and/or spew your arrogance to the wrong person or people.

_3-Is arrogance misinterpreted too often? How so? _

Many times, yes. People sometimes mistake self-confidence and experience for arrogance. Just because you know what the hell you are talking about and you have a ton of experience in a ceratain area, does not make you arrogant.

_4-Would you work on a project with a great musician but who you think is arrogant in a way you find annoying? (your pay would be average to your other projects) _

Absolutely. Can always learn from a great musician. I would put up with arrogance to learn a few things and potentially better myself.

_5-When you get a sense of somebody being arrogant, does it immediately turn you off? (again, you could specify how you perceive "arrogance") _

Yes, but would put up with it to learn something.

_6-Are you arrogant? Choose: Never, rarely, depends, often, all the time._

I dont feel that I am. But I understand that to some (internet folk), I am perceived that way. People who know me in person would never say I am arrogant, but there are some who know me only online who think I am. Couple a lack of facial expressions and vocal inflections with being very direct (which I am) and some people think "damn, Jeff is arrogant". Which, technically, is their issue and not mine. Ok, _that_ was arrogant!


----------



## rayinstirling (Mar 4, 2013)

If there is one thing worse than arrogance it's:
folk who answer a question with a question.
Guy, why do you ask?


----------



## MichaelL (Mar 4, 2013)

1-The real question here is: What do you understand by "arrogant"? 

Like Jay, I defer to the dictionary, but with an emphasis on the individual's exaggerated sense of their own abilities.

2-Is there such thing as healthy arrogance vs unhealthy arrogance? 

In my opinion...no. I really believe that it's compensation for insecurity.

3-Is arrogance misinterpreted too often? How so? 

It's possible that some people who are not arrogant appear to be so.

4-Would you work on a project with a great musician but who you think is arrogant in a way you find annoying? (your pay would be average to your other projects) 

No. Life is too short. The truly great musicians, composers, directors, etc., that I've known were not arrogant at all. Instead they were very open, generous, patient, and more than willing to share their knowledge. I'm sure that there are some great composers who can be real prima donnas, but that comes from a need for external validation. If you're confident you don't need that so much.

5-When you get a sense of somebody being arrogant, does it immediately turn you off? (again, you could specify how you perceive "arrogance") 

Yes. A lot of people (it seems rampant among composers) are very arrogant. yet when You check out their work, they don't have the juice to justify the attitude. 

6-Are you arrogant? Choose: Never, rarely, depends, often, all the time.

I was much more so when I was younger, but I outgrew it as I gained confidence (along with age and wisdom..HA!) I'm working on being more patient and generous. However, I do still get frustrated by the sheer number of people trying to make it in this business who shouldn't. It's one of the few professions I can think of where amateurs compete with professionals.


----------



## Inductance (Mar 4, 2013)

Interesting topic. Just a few thoughts...

I think a lot of artistic people are also pretty intelligent. I'd say that most of the people posting on this board have moderately high IQs. My experience growing up was that a lot of intelligent people were also kind of awkward as kids. Most were definitely not the "popular" kids in school. Maybe, sometimes, some of the "popular" kids may have picked on the more intelligent kids (btw, I'm not talking about all-out bullying, but I'm sure that happens, too).

As a result, some of these intelligent kids grew up with chips on their shoulders. Then they finished college, moved on to more interesting things, and they enjoyed some professional success. Now that they find themselves in positions with some authority, that chip on their shoulder manifests itself as "arrogance." 

I've definitely known and have worked with people like that. Some of them are well aware that they're more intelligent than their coworkers, and they relish the fact that they can verbally beat them down in arguments and debates. I think we see that on message boards, too. It's like they've finally grown into a world where intelligence can be wielded as a weapon.

I'm no Einstein, but I think I have a higher than average IQ. Thankfully, I wasn't too awkward when I was younger, so I don't have too many resentments, nor do I have that big of a chip on my shoulder. Also, I'd much rather get along with people, so I don't try to be abrasive. Occasionally, if I get into an argument, I think that chip on my shoulder gets bigger, so I guess I DO get a bit arrogant. But aside from that, I enjoy more pleasant exchanges with people. Life is too short to waste it on willful unpleasantness.


----------



## IvanP (Mar 4, 2013)

Hmmm interesting thread!

I don't know how much being arrogant has anything to do with also being pedantic...

But, quite recently, I finally met a director with whom I had worked before through the internet. We worked on a short film, we both were very happy with the outcome, and since, we've had a few phone chats, Facebooking, etc and we finally met in a film festival not too long ago. 

After a few beers, he told me that he thought I was a pedantic guy (sort of an arrogant conservatory trained bastard) and that he was surprised I was actually such a cool chum :mrgreen: 

We both laughed at it, but it did make me think about it... this sort of "arrogance halo" is more common in Classically trained composers VS composers who come from rock or jazz, isn't it? 

Does this mean I should I get a tattoo? _-)

Now, more seriously...does anybody has the same perception of Classically trained composers? Is this something related to Europe or does it also happens in Canada or the US?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm not arrogant, just better and more important than everyone around. It annoys me a lot when people fail to recognize that.


----------



## Arbee (Mar 4, 2013)

Interesting topic Guy!

1-The real question here is: What do you understand by "arrogant"? 
_Arrogance to me is taking a position of superiority and being dismissive of others' input and abilities._

2-Is there such thing as healthy arrogance vs unhealthy arrogance? 
_No, healthy assertiveness yes, arrogance no. Arrogance tends to shut others down so in my view it can never be healthy._

3-Is arrogance misinterpreted too often? How so?
_Sometimes insecurity can come across as arrogance. _

4-Would you work on a project with a great musician but who you think is arrogant in a way you find annoying? (your pay would be average to your other projects) 
_No, I can say that with confidence as I've turned down work under these circumstances. I should add though that the most annoying people can be those with huge, arrogant egos and incredible talent to match. They kind of tear you up inside  _

5-When you get a sense of somebody being arrogant, does it immediately turn you off? (again, you could specify how you perceive "arrogance") 
_Yes, unless I happen to have huge respect for their talent and then I try to tough it out and learn something._

6-Are you arrogant? Choose: Never, rarely, depends, often, all the time.
_Depends. To people with big egos who I have little respect for I can come across as very arrogant. To those I respect and/or those who obviously put in the hard work, not at all._

While I've mellowed a lot with age I still don't suffer fools well, especially arrogant ones :lol: I might add that "genre elitism" is a form of arrogance I find perhaps the most frustrating and ridiculous.

.


----------



## dgburns (Mar 4, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> I'm not arrogant, just better and more important than everyone around. It annoys me a lot when people fail to recognize that.



and this is why I think you're likely the most humble guy here! :mrgreen:


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Mar 4, 2013)

IvanP @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> After a few beers, he told me that he thought I was a pedantic guy (sort of an arrogant conservatory trained bastard) and that he was surprised I was actually such a cool chum :mrgreen:
> 
> /quote]
> 
> ...


----------



## MichaelL (Mar 4, 2013)

IvanP @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> Now, more seriously...does anybody has the same perception of Classically trained composers? Is this something related to Europe or does it also happens in Canada or the US?



Only when it makes them think that they _are_ better than those who are not conservatory trained, which I think is nonsense.


----------



## MichaelL (Mar 4, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> Being pedantic neither includes nor precludes arrogance. They are 2 different character traits. It means, "exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky; dogmatic, purist, literalist, literalistic, formalist; casuistic, casuistical, sophistic, sophistical; captious, hair-splitting, quibbling; informal nitpicking, persnickety."




You mean like correcting someone's word choices? :lol: ( I say that with love and respect).


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Mar 4, 2013)

MichaelL @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Being pedantic neither includes nor precludes arrogance. They are 2 different character traits. It means, "exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky; dogmatic, purist, literalist, literalistic, formalist; casuistic, casuistical, sophistic, sophistical; captious, hair-splitting, quibbling; informal nitpicking, persnickety."
> ...



I do indeed tend to be pedantic. But after all, i do write books and columns that are teaching things, so it is a bit of an occupational hazard. 

And words matter. If we are not precise with them, we cannot know we are talking past each other.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Mar 4, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> I'm not arrogant, just better and more important than everyone around. It annoys me a lot when people fail to recognize that.



I love that.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Mar 4, 2013)

dgburns @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not arrogant, just better and more important than everyone around. It annoys me a lot when people fail to recognize that.
> ...



i know Nick well. trust me, he has much to be humble about :twisted:


----------



## Guy Bacos (Mar 4, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> If there is one thing worse than arrogance it's:
> folk who answer a question with a question.
> Guy, why do you ask?



Why do you ask, that I ask, ah nevermind. 

It's a touchy topic, more so over the internet, I kind of felt curious to dig into people's mind about the subject.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks Jay.


----------



## dgburns (Mar 4, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> dgburns @ Mon Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 04 said:
> ...



BItchslapped!!! two guys in one shot.

you're on a roll today o[])


----------



## Musicologo (Mar 4, 2013)

I believe it is also a matter of relativity against someone.

I'm definitely arrogant and perfectionist when I'm confronted with people that I perceive know a lot less and have less experience than me. Or that I don't respect their work because I think they still lack a lot of skills or intelligence.

Then again, I turn into humble and aweing servant when I'm facing people I admire, respect and aim to be like them. Ever since I've joined this forum most of the time I feel "humble and grateful" mood because I feel I have yet a LOT to learn and develop to reach some things I see others doing.

On the other hand when I look into the "real world" and see most of the musicians and academics out there I think "Jeez, these people are ignorant, and I'm so skilled... I should be in a way better position right now and earning a lot more money, I'm not inferior to any of these guys"...

So I guess it's a matter of relative perceptions and attributed values regarding your own work in some area compared to other's achievements.


----------



## Peter Alexander (Mar 4, 2013)

*1-The real question here is: What do you understand by "arrogant"?*
Successful people are demanding and can come across as arrogant because they're demanding more of you because a sloppy performance on your part causes them to have a sloppy performance. So that's one side. 

But genuinely arrogant person is an ego out of control which often creates problems for The Arrogant and just goes downstream from there. In Greek, from 1 Corinthians 13:4 arrogance could be perceived as _perpereúomai_ which is one who extols himself. Such an individual lacks the perspective that agape loving themselves brings, which is a healthy self-love. 

In answering this, I think of Gen. Hal Moore who was the character study of _We Were Soldiers Once and Young._ Moore was ruthless and demanding, even to West Pointees. But that was his job. But you had to look beyond that to see that what he was doing in that situation was agape love in action. It didn't _feel_ loving, but it was. 

*2-Is there such thing as healthy arrogance vs unhealthy arrogance?*
No, based on the Greek definition, it's unhealthy, period.

*3-Is arrogance misinterpreted too often? How so?*
People who are commanding and demanding often come off like this.

*4-Would you work on a project with a great musician but who you think is arrogant in a way you find annoying? (your pay would be average to your other projects)*
I have done this and in the end, it would have been better not to have worked with him since as a self-extoller, listening wasn't a strong skill because of who he was.

*5-When you get a sense of somebody being arrogant, does it immediately turn you off? (again, you could specify how you perceive "arrogance")*
I wait to see if the arrogance is really arrogance vs. being demanding with a goal and purpose in mind for an achieved end result.

*6-Are you arrogant? Choose: Never, rarely, depends, often, all the time.*
I'm commanding, demanding and direct which leads some to feel that I am arrogant.


----------



## IvanP (Mar 4, 2013)

MichaelL @ Tue Mar 05 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Being pedantic neither includes nor precludes arrogance. They are 2 different character traits. It means, "exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky; dogmatic, purist, literalist, literalistic, formalist; casuistic, casuistical, sophistic, sophistical; captious, hair-splitting, quibbling; informal nitpicking, persnickety."
> ...



hahaha

who dares correct ME!

I guess this is being arrogant then :mrgreen:


----------



## Dave Connor (Mar 4, 2013)

Interesting topic. I just had a discussion with a fellow musician about how extraordinarily humble Bill Evans was. I spent some time with him one evening and thought he was near the most humble man I ever met. This is a guy who was one of the greatest musicians of the last century in any branch of music. I also spent considerable time around Jerry Goldsmith, a man completely void of arrogance and presumption. Also a towering musical figure in his time. So I think there's often something to the character of the individual and the proportion of his gifts. Not always though, to be sure.


----------

