# Clipping in the Final Mix



## Daniel Petras (Jul 11, 2017)

I've been comparing my music to other composers who I enjoy, and one thing that I've noticed about a lot of these tracks is that they're clipping, sometimes even by around 2db. I've only checked it with the really epic, hybrid trailer type music and it seems to be a normal thing. Why is this an okay thing to do? Is clipping okay for these types of tracks becase they are already intense and distorted that they can get away with it? Are there certain types of limiters that allow you to do this because when I put a limiter at the end of my master bus, the highest I can go for an output is 0db.


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## karelpsota (Jul 11, 2017)

Soft-clipping, hard-clipping or even multiband-clipping are very common mixing techniques in any genre that has to be loud (EDM, Dub Step, Metal, Trailer Music).

My favorite mixers would argue that clipping sounds better than limiting, as you don't hear the limiter pumping. Instead, you get a bit of distorsion making the mix brighter. The trick is to make that distorsion convenient.

Personally, I clip in stages and put it only where its desirable.

For example: clipping drums. I would push the first 30 ms of my snare with a transient shaper into a clipper. This way I get a super aggressive and controlled click, while the tail stays natural. This allows the snare to cut through the mix, sound loud, but not too compressed... (because the tail is sill naturally breathing).

I wouldn't clip cymbals or lush instruments.

Clipping bass gives you odd harmonics. Very common on 808 subs in trap music.

When it comes to mastering, try limiting VS clipping. Sometimes that extra crunch is what you're missing.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 11, 2017)

You'd probably want a limiter that doesn't do dBTP and doesn't detect intersample peaks since that's what that is. 

If it's the sound you want, go for it... I wouldn't do it.

One thing to keep in mind is loudness normalization. When I'm mastering I'll look at my limiter in loud sections to see that I'm not taking too much off and after that I don't look at peak/RMS meters at all. Only the loudness meter. Try comparing this clipped music to more dynamic stuff at the same loudness level and the latter will sound a lot better. You can argue against loudness normalization but unless you're releasing on a CD and want to compete directly with other CD's there's no point (who even plays CD's nowadays let alone playing various back-to-back...). iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, etc. will all be loudness normalized and I hope things continue to move in that direction. Even if you were releasing on CD, the people buying it would probably only be doing so because they already like your music so you're not trying to win them over with it being louder.


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## Daniel Petras (Jul 11, 2017)

I'm not sure what dBTP means exactly. I was just messing around with K-clip and left the ceiling off (I assume this is what people are doing as opposed to leaving it on?) and was able to get some clipping on my already mastered track that was transparent from what I could tell. I was going for an output of about 2db higher, but I had to set the soften to about 60% to avoid any noticeable distortion. I guess I didn't take clippers literally and didn't realize they actually clipped above 0db.



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Try comparing this clipped music to more dynamic stuff at the same loudness level and the latter will sound a lot better.



I think the music where people are trying to push the level with clippers and whatnot is not really dynamic music in the first place, so I don't see the point in comparing to music that is considered dynamic. If I'm doing something orchestral then of course I'm not going to push hard on a limiter or clipper.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 11, 2017)

Sonorityscape said:


> I think the music where people are trying to push the level with clippers and whatnot is not really dynamic music in the first place, so I don't see the point in comparing to music that is considered dynamic. If I'm doing something orchestral then of course I'm not going to push hard on a limiter or clipper.



But it's not about macrodynamics like classical music. It's about the microdynamics. When the track isn't super crunched it'll sound much bigger and more exciting compared to things that are.

Not sure if it's properly matched in loudness but this gives you an idea of the comparison when the clipped tracks get loudness normalized:


Don't get me wrong, there should be some dynamic control but nowadays if you're doing it to try to get it louder, you can't.


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## Daniel Petras (Jul 11, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> But it's not about macrodynamics like classical music. It's about the microdynamics. When the track isn't super crunched it'll sound much bigger and more exciting compared to things that are.
> 
> Not sure if it's properly matched in loudness but this gives you an idea of the comparison when the clipped tracks get loudness normalized:
> 
> ...



I do agree with you, and yes that track sounded terrible. But I think with proper gain staging and effective use of dynamics processing you can get still get to a decent level and preserve the micro dynamics.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 11, 2017)

Sonorityscape said:


> I do agree with you, and yes that track sounded terrible. But I think with proper gain staging and effective use of dynamics processing you can get still get to a decent level and preserve the micro dynamics.



"Get to a decent level" - That's the whole point. That's gone. The levels are all the same. The louder you try to make it the quieter it'll get played at. -14LUFS is probably the loudest you'd want to make anything unless the music really calls for a smaller crest factor.

Dynamics processing should be about getting it to sound the best that it can and not about trying to get it to sound the best that it can but making compromises to try to make it louder. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you try to do that for something to be released on platforms that have loudness normalization.


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## aaronventure (Jul 12, 2017)

It's probably because of intersample clipping. They actually let their audio go to +/- 0.00db. And the peaks between samples clip above. And then you add dithering, then convert it to mp3, then Youtube processes it, and you get what you get. Plus analog clipping.

Make sure your ceiling is -0,4db or less if you're keeping your track in WAV, or -0,7db or less if you're planning to convert it to MP3.

This should explain it.


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## whinecellar (Jul 12, 2017)

This may just be the one silver lining about streaming: putting an end to the insanity of the loudness wars. I've heard so much great music utterly ruined by the need to be "loud." It just ends up sounding awful: distorted and no dynamics whatsoever. I confess I succumbed to it on some projects too, and I regret it.

When everything's loud, nothing is. I have a handful of articles about ideal levels for streaming services, all about LUFS metering, etc. - I'll post them here when I can find them.


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## Daniel Petras (Jul 12, 2017)

Okay, just realized why the tracks were clipping in my DAW on the master. I had converted to mp3 instead of wav. So problem solved there.



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> You're shooting yourself in the foot if you try to do that for something to be released on platforms that have loudness normalization.


At what level are platforms normalizing audio or how does that work?

Sometimes have a louder track can be nice when I just want to kick back and listen on my laptop speakers that don't go that loud. If I do this, I'm sure there are others who do it as well.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 12, 2017)

Sonorityscape said:


> Okay, just realized why the tracks were clipping in my DAW on the master. I had converted to mp3 instead of wav. So problem solved there.
> 
> 
> At what level are platforms normalizing audio or how does that work?
> ...



Apple is -16LUFS and I believe YouTube and Spotify are both currently -14LUFS (Spotify used to be -12).

I think you're missing the point of loudness normalization. You can't make it louder. When you kick back it'll be at the same level regardless of how loud you make the track (unless it's very quiet and hitting -1dBFS). -14LUFS is pretty easy to hit with music that isn't very macrodynamic. Dynamic film music tracks I can normally get to -16LUFS without much compression or limiting.

When you're working, if you're not comparing at the right loudness level then you have no idea how loud it'll actually be in comparison to other tracks once it's released.


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## Daniel Petras (Jul 13, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Apple is -16LUFS and I believe YouTube and Spotify are both currently -14LUFS (Spotify used to be -12).
> 
> I think you're missing the point of loudness normalization. You can't make it louder. When you kick back it'll be at the same level regardless of how loud you make the track (unless it's very quiet and hitting -1dBFS). -14LUFS is pretty easy to hit with music that isn't very macrodynamic. Dynamic film music tracks I can normally get to -16LUFS without much compression or limiting.
> 
> When you're working, if you're not comparing at the right loudness level then you have no idea how loud it'll actually be in comparison to other tracks once it's released.


I'm just looking into LUFS limiting now. I was just reading that both YouTube and SoundCloud don't do any normalizing to your tracks which are the only 2 platforms that I post on and mostly listen to music on. So I have not really experienced this with my music as when I compared my recent mix for example which sat at quite a loud level, there was no normalizing happening.

What do you use to see this measurement in your DAW?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 13, 2017)

Sonorityscape said:


> I'm just looking into LUFS limiting now. I was just reading that both YouTube and SoundCloud don't do any normalizing to your tracks which are the only 2 platforms that I post on and mostly listen to music on. So I have not really experienced this with my music as when I compared my recent mix for example which sat at quite a loud level, there was no normalizing happening.
> 
> What do you use to see this measurement in your DAW?



I'm pretty sure YouTube does and SoundCloud seems to be going under (not to mention all of the issues with their user terms). 

I use the control room in Cubase. One of the great things is that they also have a loudness track that you can use. I've also used the one in Sequoia. If your DAW doesn't have it then you'll need to get a plugin. It looks like LEVELS is the cheapest option. A lot of companies like Waves, iZotope, and Nugen have ones for around $100. I think most DAWs can at least analyze a file and give you the loudness specs which is all you really need.


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## whinecellar (Jul 13, 2017)

Hey Guys,

I've collected a handful of links that deal with this stuff. Take some things with a grain of salt, but overall they're pretty helpful:

Crest factor - loudness in a mix:


Saturation:


Take your mixes to the next level:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/how-to-take-my-mixes-to-the-next-level.60424/

Future-Proof Your Music:
http://www.avidblogs.com/future-proof-your-music/

On loudness (streaming-related):
http://productionadvice.co.uk/online-loudness/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=dynameter-warm&utm_medium=ad&utm_content=education-online-loudness


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## dgburns (Jul 13, 2017)

Was just cruising iTunes to check levels, and this Justin Bieber song "Despacito" is mastered like a cd, it's freaking hot, and it was released in April 17 2017, so it's recent. It doesn't say "mastered for iTunes", but one can assume a competent mastering/mixing team.

I'm not sure what ya'll are saying when you say your master will get turned down by Itunes, what I'm seeing is a lot of volume levels, with huge variances in mix densities and production styles, from very laissez-faire to molten saturated loud and everything in between.

I tried levelling my own stuff to -16 lufs integrated and it made me uncomfortable, I don't think I can go that low, maybe -12 integrated lufs with -1 true peak.
You can make your own AAC files for Itunes by using their droplet app, but I'm not sure if there are "level police" at iTunes hq. This Justin Bieber tune would imply they don't mess with volume...?

Here's what the JB tune looked like on meters- and yup it's clipping the true peak meters.I caught the douroughs on a dip between drum hits.This was streaming live off iTunes into my Protools rig digitally.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 19, 2017)

dgburns said:


> Was just cruising iTunes to check levels, and this Justin Bieber song "Despacito" is mastered like a cd, it's freaking hot, and it was released in April 17 2017, so it's recent. It doesn't say "mastered for iTunes", but one can assume a competent mastering/mixing team.
> 
> I'm not sure what ya'll are saying when you say your master will get turned down by Itunes, what I'm seeing is a lot of volume levels, with huge variances in mix densities and production styles, from very laissez-faire to molten saturated loud and everything in between.
> 
> ...



Do you have Soundcheck turned on? I'm not sure if the option is available in Apple Music or if there its always on with the option only being for iTunes stuff. If you're only previewing stuff in the store it's probably different too. I know you can turn it on/off on the iPhone (which makes listening to music in the car way better) but I'm not sure what's available on the desktop version.

I couldn't find that song on Spotify but with something like Ed Sheeran's "Shape of You," without loudness normalization it takes your head off. When I turn it on in Spotify the drop in level is huge. Personally, I leave the setting off because I only listen to music in my studio and want to see how loud things actually are but if I were just listening out of my studio I'd definitely have it on.


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