# Modern counterpoint



## b_elliott (Sep 4, 2020)

When I watched Mike Worth's recent Farkle Friday episode "Counterpoint" a lot of complexity was stripped away on the subject.

This is my go at counterpoint rhythmically and melodically with a nod to Frank Zappa and prog rock.

I am calling this one Farkle Point.

EDIT: Counterpoint using same melodies this time against straight-ahead classical chord progressions: De-escalate.

EDIT 2: For the record (I have revised De-escalate #2) based on some of the great input this thread has generated. New arrangement now on tab 3 of this thread.


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## GNP (Sep 4, 2020)

If you ask me, there's no such thing as Modern counterpoint.

Counterpoint belongs to the Bach era. Anything after that is just rule-breaking.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 4, 2020)

GNP said:


> If you ask me, there's no such thing as Modern counterpoint.
> 
> Counterpoint belongs to the Bach era. Anything after that is just rule-breaking.



no


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## YaniDee (Sep 4, 2020)

You guys probably know about this..Alan Belkin complete counterpoint course on youtube (free). A tad dry, but , quite informative . He provides examples and worksheets as well..If you want to improve your knowledge of CP, this well help a lot.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 4, 2020)

Not sure if this qualifies as _modern counterpoint _having been written in 1936 but it certainly was regarded so at the time - and since. It’s a strict fugue and certainly Bach-like in that respect. In fact I would imagine the laws of traditional counterpoint are strictly observed as well.

It’s the modal quality that distinguishes from the traditional _sound _of a fugue but the formal structure as well as traditional fugal devices (Retrograde, RInversion etc.,) are all in there.

A long way of saying it’s a hell of a piece of music and widely recognized as one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century.

This link shows the score but I would check out the early Bernstein, CBS (Columbia) version.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 4, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> When I watched Mike Worth's recent Farkle Friday episode "Counterpoint" a lot of complexity was stripped away on the subject.
> 
> This is my go at counterpoint rhythmically and melodically with a nod to Frank Zappa and prog rock.
> 
> ...


I get a kick out of your music and certainly hear the Zappa nod. I went to a concert where he played strict serial music with an orchestra and it was fantastic and highly communicative while void of _harmony._

You have quick lines going in a sort of call and response and you do latch parts on to each other (1st example) but I don’t know if it suggests counterpoint so much. For any length of time anyway. Not that it needs to.

In Dunkirk, Hans Zimmer did this sort of 4 voice fugue texture with mostly mechanical sounds that oddly enough connected directly to the Bach aesthetic of perfectly meshed independent parts. Zappa also created non-melodic/harmonic textures with mechanical sounds (using orchestra though) where you sort of follow along and hear a narrative in the music. Well, a favorite subject.


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## b_elliott (Sep 5, 2020)

In response to Dave Connor from above: 
I appreciate your comments and helpful insights. Aside from the Farkle Counterpoint video I have been slowly going through Walter Piston's Counterpoint (1970). The stress Piston had on rhythm was significant to me: "Rhythm is the essence of counterpoint...."

In this same chapter on Melodic Rhythm: "Rhythmic impulses may also be imparted by percussion... a melodic rhythm, on a single tone." Here (going back to your comment on HZ's Dunkirk) I think this is what HZ utilized so well in "Supermarine" from Dunkirk. Until you pointed it out, I hadn't connected the dots. If you were thinking of another track I am keen to know.

re: Zappa. Amongst many things for me, FZ shines in this rhythmic department--masterfully so. I grew up a drummer so I could appreciate Chester Thompson's assessment that Zappa was no walk in the park when he drummed on Studio Tan; yet, he did an absolutely brilliant job on Adventures of Greggary Peccary. 

A beginning for me. I am curious where the magic leads.


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 5, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> *........A beginning for me. I am curious where the magic leads.*



To personally defined and honed expression.


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## Gerbil (Sep 5, 2020)

I have the score of Thomas Ades' In Seven Days. It has a wonderful irregular fugue in it that's well worth studying.


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## ism (Sep 5, 2020)

GNP said:


> If you ask me, there's no such thing as Modern counterpoint.
> 
> Counterpoint belongs to the Bach era. Anything after that is just rule-breaking.




This simply defines counter point as "doing exactly what Bach did". 

A more helpful understanding might be more along the lines of Huron's book:




Where he relates the ability for multiple distinct perceptual streams of sounds (a fundamental capacity of the human mind) to the ability of music to sound nice by having seperate lines not all blend into a single stream of auditory mush. 

Counterpoint (or at least voice leading), is then a collection of techniques to write distinct lines that the human mind will interpret as separate perceptual streams, and rather then just blend them all together into a single perceptual stream of harmonic mush .


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## Ashermusic (Sep 5, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> I get a kick out of your music and certainly hear the Zappa nod. I went to a concert where he played strict serial music with an orchestra and it was fantastic and highly communicative while void of _harmony._
> 
> You have quick lines going in a sort of call and response and you do latch parts on to each other (1st example) but I don’t know if it suggests counterpoint so much. For any length of time anyway. Not that it needs to.
> 
> In Dunkirk, Hans Zimmer did this sort of 4 voice fugue texture with mostly mechanical sounds that oddly enough connected directly to the Bach aesthetic of perfectly meshed independent parts. Zappa also created non-melodic/harmonic textures with mechanical sounds (using orchestra though) where you sort of follow along and hear a narrative in the music. Well, a favorite subject.



Not all line against line writing, while contrapuntal perhaps, is “Counterpoint.”


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## Dave Connor (Sep 5, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> In response to Dave Connor from above:
> I appreciate your comments and helpful insights. Aside from the Farkle Counterpoint video I have been slowly going through Walter Piston's Counterpoint (1970). The stress Piston had on rhythm was significant to me: "Rhythm is the essence of counterpoint...."


Without a doubt rhythm is hugely important in contrapuntal textures. Bach is one of the greatest rhythmic geniuses ever. A distinct rhythm makes for a clearly heard line that also contrasts well with the other lines. Piston has sharp insights in all his teachings. Check out his 2nd Symphony.


b_elliott said:


> In this same chapter on Melodic Rhythm: "Rhythmic impulses may also be imparted by percussion... a melodic rhythm, on a single tone." Here (going back to your comment on HZ's Dunkirk) I think this is what HZ utilized so well in "Supermarine" from Dunkirk. Until you pointed it out, I hadn't connected the dots. If you were thinking of another track I am keen to know.


Zappa’s piece made extensive use of percussion and things like col legno in strings to maintain a mechanical sound. HZ used percussive sounds - maybe some traditional - but he created the majority of them through sampling and programming no doubt. A great mechanical soundscape that I thought referred to that highly mechanized war. That score has some of the best sound invention ever in film imho. It may be Supermarine - I would have to check. The entire score contains every kind of invented sound. The top tone in The Oil is part sawtooth, part sign wave from natural and synth elements and behaves incredibly naturally as in a flux. Genius really. And of course you also get multilayered rhythmic (contrapuntal) textures as well.


b_elliott said:


> re: Zappa. Amongst many things for me, FZ shines in this rhythmic department--masterfully so. I grew up a drummer so I could appreciate Chester Thompson's assessment that Zappa was no walk in the park when he drummed on Studio Tan; yet, he did an absolutely brilliant job on Adventures of Greggary Peccary.


Chester Thompson was very nearly my favorite drummer back in the day. Yes, extremely complex rhythms across the board from Zappa. One of a kind.


b_elliott said:


> A beginning for me. I am curious where the magic leads.


You’re off to a good start. Good luck, have fun, work harder than anyone else and make some great music!


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## b_elliott (Sep 5, 2020)

Sweet damn I just listened to The Oil by Zimmer. I've not seen Dunkirk so was surprised at its sustained musical intensity. HZ exploits counterpoint as you've described. 

At one point midway through The Oil, my mind time slipped to wonder about Bach pulling off such intensity of sounds on some church organ. Based on organist Paul Jacob's account of being moved to tears while he played one of Bach's few six-part counterpoint works, I'd say Bach likely pulled off something similar. [ref: Sublimity Can be Terrifying, Paul Jacobs on Youtube]

Thank you again for you insight and time. Much to listen to and study. Cheers.


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## David Cuny (Sep 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Not all line against line writing, while contrapuntal perhaps, is “Counterpoint.”


I'll unhelpfully point out (see what I did there? ) that "contrapunctual" _literally means_ "counter point" - a note (point) set against (counter) another note.


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## ism (Sep 5, 2020)

Is the confusion perhaps that the word “counterpoint“ has become fetishized into the strictest WWBD (What Would Bach Do) sense of the word, rather more broad (and reasonable, I feel) understandings?


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## Dave Connor (Sep 5, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> Sweet damn I just listened to The Oil by Zimmer. I've not seen Dunkirk so was surprised at its sustained musical intensity. HZ exploits counterpoint as you've described.
> 
> At one point midway through The Oil, my mind time slipped to wonder about Bach pulling off such intensity of sounds on some church organ. Based on organist Paul Jacob's account of being moved to tears while he played one of Bach's few six-part counterpoint works, I'd say Bach likely pulled off something similar. [ref: Sublimity Can be Terrifying, Paul Jacobs on Youtube]
> 
> Thank you again for you insight and time. Much to listen to and study. Cheers.


I enjoy talking about this stuff. Hans Zimmer is a classicist. Also an innovator and pioneer in film but people seem to miss his deep roots in Bach, Beethoven and co. There are more references to Classical works in his music (going way back) then any other composer including Williams and Horner. So even when he isn’t referencing someone (which is often) the solidity of well constructed music (i.e. _resonant) _is always there.

So, _modern _or any other type of counterpoint (or any musical texture) must obey certain laws whether they are studied visually or aurally or both. Most of us do both and it sounds as if you are doing just that. Your enthusiasm will go a long way toward building an arsenal of musical ideas and the ways and means to present them.

Don’t miss the Piston 2nd Symph. Lot’s of treasures in there. For a more rhythmic work which has a bit of Goldsmith try his 6th.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Not all line against line writing, while contrapuntal perhaps, is “Counterpoint.”


Exactly Jay. I see instructional videos named, COUNTERPOINT which are really about ‘counter melody‘ and more akin to song-arranging tips than the uphill study that is counterpoint.


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## Farkle (Sep 5, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> When I watched Mike Worth's recent Farkle Friday episode "Counterpoint" a lot of complexity was stripped away on the subject.
> 
> This is my go at counterpoint rhythmically and melodically with a nod to Frank Zappa and prog rock.
> 
> ...



Hot shit, man, I absolutely LOVE these two cuts! I had the biggest grin on my face listening to Farkle Point! Great job, man, totally nailed that Zappa/Mahavishnu fusion thing! Just a ton of fun! Man, I miss having some really virtuosic music that just challenges our brains to really pay attention!

The second cut has a lovely Beatles vibe, that is fun. For that cut, your counterlines MIGHT be a bit too rhythmically busy, but the style and vibe is there, and there's a lot of great creative ideas there, and you can clearly hear how the counterpoint (or contrapuntal) nature of the lines pushes them into the foreground and background for our ears. Which, I think, is the point (pun intended) of counterpoint.

Nice work, man! That brought a smile to my face! Thanks for sharing!

Mike


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 5, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Not sure if this qualifies as _modern counterpoint _having been written in 1936 but it certainly was regarded so at the time - and since. It’s a strict fugue and certainly Bach-like in that respect. In fact I would imagine the laws of traditional counterpoint are strictly observed as well.
> 
> It’s the modal quality that distinguishes from the traditional _sound _of a fugue but the formal structure as well as traditional fugal devices (Retrograde, RInversion etc.,) are all in there.
> 
> ...




Seat belt music.


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## b_elliott (Sep 5, 2020)

re: Piston Symphony 2 & 6
I finally listened to Walter Piston's Symphony(s) 2 and 6. I see their relevance: gorgeous counterpoint. I've not listened to his music before. If I were blindfolded I would have said this music is Aaron Copland. 
There is a calmness in his writing style. A vibe captured in Robert Frost's Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws9PNL58RMw)

I am glad you shared these reference works.


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## Farkle (Sep 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Not all line against line writing, while contrapuntal perhaps, is “Counterpoint.”



True, Jay, but my take is, "what's in a name"? We're composers, not theorists. My thought is, we need tools to write better music, faster. "counterpoint", "Contrapuntal", those terms (in my view) are now just terms to describe multiple melodic lines that have rhythmic independence but harmonic interdependence. Hah, funny enough, that's the wiki definition of the subject!

_In music, *counterpoint* is the relationship between two or more musical lines (or voices) which are harmonically interdependent yet independent in rhythm and melodic contour.[1] As a compositional technique, counterpoint is found in many musical styles including Medieval music, gamelan,[not verified in body] and the music of West Africa._

Honestly, I really don't care anymore about the titles and terms, I just need to write faster, better. I'm using these terms because they are "common parlances" for composers to talk about writing multiple melodies, rather than more "pop" melody/harmony structures. Which, most of our favorite cues have in spades.

As always, one dude with one dude's opinion. Cheers, brotha!

Mike


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## Dave Connor (Sep 5, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> "Counterpoint" is one of those "it depends on who you ask" words. I used to associate it with decidedly contrapuntal textures, irrespective of style, as in: _Two or more overall rhythmically, directionally, motivically independent and largely coequal voices whose combination seemed to be almost coincidentally euphonious, or at least formed some sense of a musical whole._
> 
> And I continued to think of it like that even after writing just about every type of canon followed by the obligatory composer's fugue-quest. But I gradually came to see that as a superficial view, and that, for me at least, "counterpoint" is just voice-leading. Simple and practical. Textures vary, but where there is movement, there is counterpoint, i.e. voice-leading.
> 
> ...


I found myself making the distinction in terms of _study _here at v.i. when the question would come up. That is, there is a difference between studying or trying to understand how to write against a melodic line and a full blown systematic course in _species counterpoint._ A good pair of ears could easily come up with a counter melody. It’s not likely a chorale prelude could be generated by only a gifted musician though with all the formal considerations etc.


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## b_elliott (Sep 5, 2020)

Another take on the slipperiness of this term is due to two definitions for the prefix counter-:

1. Contrary; opposite; opposing
2. Corresponding; complementary

As musicians we love the 1 and 2 in our music.

musical example:
Zappa pointed to Gentle Giant in one of his interviews as a band he found interesting. At the time GG had come out with The Power and The Glory. "Proclamation" abounds in counterpoint:


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## Dave Connor (Sep 5, 2020)

True story - and something I bet would almost never happen these days. TV composing giant Pete Carpenter was sort of sizing me up in an audition process after inviting me to his office after hearing me play some Jazz piano (unbeknownst to me in the music library at Universal Studios.) At a certain point in trying to detect whether I had sufficient musical training, he wrote a melodic figure on a white board and asked me to write a counterpoint against it. I did so soundly and effortlessly and that was that. But I would have been completely stumped because it was a sort of fugue subject he wrote and my goose would have been cooked without the years of private study with Hal Johnson who was one of the best on that discipline in LA.

Times have change.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 5, 2020)

Farkle said:


> True, Jay, but my take is, "what's in a name"? We're composers, not theorists. My thought is, we need tools to write better music, faster. "counterpoint", "Contrapuntal", those terms (in my view) are now just terms to describe multiple melodic lines that have rhythmic independence but harmonic interdependence. Hah, funny enough, that's the wiki definition of the subject!
> 
> _In music, *counterpoint* is the relationship between two or more musical lines (or voices) which are harmonically interdependent yet independent in rhythm and melodic contour.[1] As a compositional technique, counterpoint is found in many musical styles including Medieval music, gamelan,[not verified in body] and the music of West Africa._
> 
> ...



Sorry, but my classical training just will not allow me to accept that


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 5, 2020)

ism said:


> Counterpoint (or at least voice leading), is then a collection of techniques to write distinct lines that the human mind will interpret as separate perceptual streams, and rather then just blend them all together into a single perceptual stream of harmonic mush .



Exactly! ^^^^^ And excellent book by the way, agreed! Thanks for recommending it to me a few years back. 

counterpoint is found in a wide variety of music including even simple pop tunes. Any time the bass line is playing something different than the singer is singing...you have a form of counterpoint, for example.

Yes, Bach applied one particular form of counterpoint that has a certain sound to it..and used counterpoint in a certain way that many associate with the term, but the study on the subject is not and should not be limited only to that particular form of music. Most students start learning counterpoint by studying exactly that stuff from that period... They attend a class and learn to apply strict Fux and so forth... ok...

and I would dare say that the vast majority of people studying counterpoint never get past that study either...but there is plenty more to think about and in the end...what ISM said above is pretty much what it comes down to...and counterpoint techniques essentially help a composer to distinguish independent lines from each other. They do not have to necessarily be doing it the way Fux demanded it to be done. But if no care is given to it..then lines will in fact mush together and stop sounding like independent lines...and sometimes that is exactly desired too! It doesn't have to be wall to wall constant independent lines... But knowing how to make the voices sound independent is the craft of counterpoint.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 5, 2020)

now as to whether the MP3's attached are well crafted counterpoint or just chaos...I leave that to the listener.


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## ism (Sep 5, 2020)

Dolphins, apparently, have amazing ability to process distinct perceptual stream.


By the time Bach is writing six or seven contrapuntal lines ... well, empirical neuroscience suggests that he's just showing off, and probably very few humans possess the capacity to perceive six or seven part counterpoint as independent contrapuntal lines.


Dolphins, however, can - at least in principle, according to, you know, science - appreciate Bach far beyond the limits of the mere human mind.


(Though admittedly empirical dolphin musicology of the common practice period isn't always all that well funded, so some of this may still be somewhat conjectural. But I'm sure science will get there eventually).


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## Dave Connor (Sep 5, 2020)

The point of my little story is that today, people basically want to hear your tracks; mock-up skills, writing, production values etc. Nobody is going to give you a little test on counterpoint. Back in the day though, everyone who had hopes of writing for orchestra (Post and Carpenter regularly had 50 pieces) had a traditional music education. From early silent pictures to John Williams’ era it was assumed you had studied, Harmony, Form, Counterpoint etc. It’s an interesting fact or change from a long established industry norm.


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## Farkle (Sep 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Sorry, but my classical training just will not allow me to accept that



'Sokay, man, we can agree to disagree. I had classical training on counterpoint at university as well, but I just don't like accessing it as a composer nowadays. It's totally my take, and one man's opinion. 

Mike


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 5, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> Oh I hope not. Although Fux's species pedagogy was genius, he only intended that book as a tutorial guide for writing strict vocal polyphony in the style of Palestrina. That's purely linear, pre-harmonic counterpoint. Even those composers a generation or two later who worked with it only used it as an exercise book—a sort of nuts and bolts point of departure to learn some basic voice-leading routines.
> 
> But Bach's approach kinda dynamited that framework and a little more than 100 years later Wagner gave us Tristan. The big takeaway from Bach is his deep-level musical meaning and the way he expresses it with his technique—both of which transcend mere style. It's a way of thinking and of working with intervals, function, rhythm, prolongation and form. Studying Bach is, in the long run, not for the purpose of writing Baroque or Bach pastiche, or even remaining squarely in the CPE. The goal there is to examine, deconstruct and reconstruct his means and methods, and then over time to "transliterate" that to your own style(s). That last part is crucial. You plug in your own parameters and aesthetics.
> 
> ...



I'm constantly amazed at the fleeting dissonances Bach allows to happen in his part writing. They are the individual spice that makes his music so moving to me and all as a result of giving melody more inevitability than harmony at times, momentary thematic and motivic superiority.
Yes, he took the Palestrina school to new heights.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 6, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Not sure if this qualifies as _modern counterpoint _having been written in 1936 but it certainly was regarded so at the time - and since. It’s a strict fugue and certainly Bach-like in that respect. In fact I would imagine the laws of traditional counterpoint are strictly observed as well.
> 
> It’s the modal quality that distinguishes from the traditional _sound _of a fugue but the formal structure as well as traditional fugal devices (Retrograde, RInversion etc.,) are all in there.
> 
> ...




I hadn't heard this piece before - really enjoying it - thank you!!!


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## Dave Connor (Sep 6, 2020)

tomorrowstops said:


> I hadn't heard this piece before - really enjoying it - thank you!!!


My pleasure. Bernstein slows things down in the opening fugue so you can really hear the vertical harmonies which are brilliantly crafted. Great performance.


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## b_elliott (Sep 6, 2020)

It's mysterious and sublime music. 

I also hear how much of Bartok's counterpoint worked its way into Bernard Hermann's work. 

Since I own BHCT, I have a new source to explore.


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 6, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> It's mysterious and sublime music.
> 
> I also hear how much of Bartok's counterpoint worked its way into Bernard Hermann's work.
> 
> Since I own BHCT, I have a new source to explore.



....it's also a very tightly controlled work. Form as well as motivic work.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 6, 2020)

Farkle said:


> 'Sokay, man, we can agree to disagree. I had classical training on counterpoint at university as well, but I just don't like accessing it as a composer nowadays. It's totally my take, and one man's opinion.
> 
> Mike



I am not suggesting you actually use 5th species counterpoint in your composing. To me, it was training that later allowed me to instinctively write better line against line parts. 

I guess I am making a distinction between the word “counterpoint “ and contrapuntal style line against line composing.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 6, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> My pleasure. Bernstein slows things down in the opening fugue so you can really hear the vertical harmonies which are brilliantly crafted. Great performance.




Yes! Thats the performance I chose to listen to. Glad I got the right one. That first part is just...magical - I love the sound of that kind of harmony. Definitely can tell what Horner was into while he worked on Aliens. And Morricone’s approach to The Thing.


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## wst3 (Sep 6, 2020)

fascinating conversation here!

I think one of the more interesting points - for me - is the distinction between "following the rules" vs using counterpoint or "line against line" writing to either speed the process of composition, or perhaps make the composition more interesting.

A long time ago, in a place far away, I had a professor explain it this way, and it has kind of stuck for me.

One applies the "rules" of counterpoint while composing. One is creating a second line to play against the first in a musically interesting way (or form). 

One applies those same rules, or at least concepts, while arranging a piece, that is, the melody is already written and you are filling in the blanks, once again in a musically interesting way. That doesn't mean playing chords against a melody is bad, or even uninteresting, it simply means that you are approaching the arrangement from a different perspective.

This was further reinforced when I studied guitar later on, my teacher was well known for his "Chord/Melody" approach to guitar arrangements. And for reasons unknown, at that time I never really equated arranging for guitar with arranging. Partly because I was young and stupid, but mostly because the two teachers taught from such different perspectives.

I do get Jay's point, I'm just not certain it is all that valuable outside the classroom. Inside the classroom it is a distinction that I think needs to be made.

Possibly due to my training I think learning harmony and counterpoint can help one work smarter and faster. While I wish the later were unimportant, I am now old enough to appreciate that it is not.

The other point (see, it is infectious) is that sometimes it is just plain fun to work through counterpoint exercises. I confess I've never written a fugue I liked, but that doesn't stop me from trying from time to time.


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## wst3 (Sep 6, 2020)

One more thing, if I might... I had looked at the David Huron book some time ago, probably because it was mentioned here, and I thought it seemed kind of dry, more a scientific explanation of why we like counterpoint than why we should use counterpoint, or even how to use counterpoint as a composer.

I'm re-reading the description and reviews on Amazon and thinking perhaps I misjudged it, or just wasn't ready to appreciate it yet?

Can anyone tell me if I was right then, or now<G>?


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## Dave Connor (Sep 6, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> I'm constantly amazed at the fleeting dissonances Bach allows to happen in his part writing. They are the individual spice that makes his music so moving to me and all as a result of giving melody more inevitability than harmony at times, momentary thematic and motivic superiority.
> Yes, he took the Palestrina school to new heights.


In the Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 538 (Dorian) for Organ - the fugue has dissonances that would make Herbie Hancock blush. Often times through the use of suspension (where you get these glorious collisions) but through countless devices and means.

I would play it meagerly on my B3 with pedals and just stop and marvel at these beautiful constructions whether pop-sounding 11th chords or Schoenberg-sounding dissonances - and everything in between.

When people extoll the virtues of Bach Counterpoint, it’s really about a way of mining the depths of music and how to get your hands on the tools to start digging.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 6, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> re: Piston Symphony 2 & 6
> I finally listened to Walter Piston's Symphony(s) 2 and 6. I see their relevance: gorgeous counterpoint. I've not listened to his music before. If I were blindfolded I would have said this music is Aaron Copland.
> There is a calmness in his writing style. A vibe captured in Robert Frost's Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws9PNL58RMw)
> 
> I am glad you shared these reference works.


I believe Robert Frost read that poem at JFK’s funeral. Frost, a national treasure and one of America’s greatest poets. Thanks for sharing.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 6, 2020)

Since we’re sharing a bit of music and such, here is one of the greatest of all fugues: Beethoven’s opening movement for his Quartet in C#min. Arranged for string orchestra by Dmitri Mitropoulos with perhaps an alteration or two by Bernstein. One of the great works of history.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 6, 2020)

wst3 said:


> One more thing, if I might... I had looked at the David Huron book some time ago, probably because it was mentioned here, and I thought it seemed kind of dry, more a scientific explanation of why we like counterpoint than why we should use counterpoint, or even how to use counterpoint as a composer.
> 
> I'm re-reading the description and reviews on Amazon and thinking perhaps I misjudged it, or just wasn't ready to appreciate it yet?
> 
> Can anyone tell me if I was right then, or now<G>?



The book is EXCELLENT and is not dry reading, I found it to be one of the most refreshing music theory books that i have read in literally decades. Highly recommend. Its a totally different thought process then anything else that anyone has ever done ever. Honestly..its groundbreaking in my opinion.

As Gene Pool already described, it really digs into modern day current understand of pyscho acoustics and offers explanations for WHY various rules related to voice leading ever existed at all. This changes the thought process from merely following some rote rules, to actually thinking about what you want your music to express...and explaining what kind of musical arrangement will achieve that, in terms of voice leading (including counterpoint). This is, after all, the entire point of learning the rules, its just that nobody really explained the "why" before and I'm not sure anyone has ever expressed the why so thoroughly as Huron has in this book. In the past people learned these rote rules, then intuitively used or abused them inspirationally perhaps, but this book really clarifies the why factor of so many voice leading (including counterpoint) concepts. Excellent read, highly recommend...


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## Dave Connor (Sep 6, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> Just speaking generally now since the subject of counterpoint so often causes heartburn and silly panic for some, for all the fretting and consternation you see some composers go through with their "There-are-no-rules" Pride Parade, you'll not see a one who can compose, arrange and orchestrate in the wide variety of styles that may be required at any given point of those who have to perform all three of those functions on a regular basis. The sum total of existence for the composer-arranger-orchestrator that has bills to pay is not merely the recent bestest-thing-ever filmscoring sound design fad. Other things exist besides one's preferred thing: Reality.


I started a post like this where I stated that the fellow I bumped into every week at our composition teacher Hal Johnson’s house - J.A.C. Redford - is now *Thomas Newman’s sole orchestrator. You don’t get that job without some very serious study. *corrected from David his brother.

I deleted because I didn’t want to post too many times which I have already done and now done again.


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## b_elliott (Sep 6, 2020)

I just looked up David Newman and noticed aside from all his film credits, he is connected with the American Youth Symphony. Way back ('73 ?) I was one of two Canadians that toured with the American Youth Symphony and Chorus through Europe. I was so shy I am not sure if I met David or if he joined after that tour. Small world.

Counterpoint:
I am humbled by the passion and savvy within this VI community. In addition to what has been brought up, our music heroes have two other qualities in spades: fearlessness and audacity. Something I need to also work upon.


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## ojczeo (Sep 6, 2020)

About "modern counterpoint": contemporary music theoretics says that counterpoint it's not just a harmonic-melodic issue, it's also related to the texture, instrumentation, balance of sound. Highly recommends studying the works of Penderecki and Lutosławski - and also a nice article to read below:






The Polyphonic Aspect of Lutosławski's Music on JSTOR


Jadwiga Paja, The Polyphonic Aspect of Lutosławski's Music, Acta Musicologica, Vol. 62, Fasc. 2/3 (May - Dec., 1990), pp. 183-191




www.jstor.org





It depends on what kind of music you want to create. If tonal/neo-tonal - still start with learning renaissance counterpoint, next baroque, etc, and after all, break things with Debussy ideas <3 - I think he was the first who unconsciously composed with texture counterpoint idea.

Of course after Debussy check some works of Stravinsky - neo-tonal, a lot of old-fashioned techniques, but really breaking old order, he takes a lot, but he distorts a lot more. Interesting ideas about using and breaking things are placed in Symphony of Psalms - the choir lines are not very correct from old-fashioned point of view but they works and making great job 

Good counterpoint means also interesting orchestration ideas and a good balance of sonority even in very complicated, contemporary orchestral music. That's what I'm thinking about. Hope it helps somebody


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## Dave Connor (Sep 6, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> I just looked up David Newman and noticed aside from all his film credits, he is connected with the American Youth Symphony. Way back ('73 ?) I was one of two Canadians that toured with the American Youth Symphony and Chorus through Europe. I was so shy I am not sure if I met David or if he joined after that tour. Small world.
> 
> Counterpoint:
> I am humbled by the passion and savvy within this VI community. In addition to what has been brought up, our music heroes have two other qualities in spades: fearlessness and audacity. Something I need to also work upon.


Apolgies! Not David! Thomas! I will edit.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 6, 2020)

ojczeo said:


> About "modern counterpoint": contemporary music theoretics says that counterpoint it's not just a harmonic-melodic issue, it's also related to the texture, instrumentation, balance of sound. Highly recommends studying the works of Penderecki and Lutosławski - and also a nice article to read below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You name some great composers there. I have never thought of Debussy as _breaking counterpoint_ (although he may have) but more of breaking away from music in general. Certainly breaking from the German tradition and indeed influenced color-wise by the Russians. There are historians who consider him as the most radical departure from _Classical - _even more than Schoenberg and Ives.

The fugue in Stravinsky’s Symphony of Psalms you mentioned is a double fugue and another fantastic piece of music everyone should know.


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## b_elliott (Sep 6, 2020)

Ojcea: "About 'modern counterpoint': contemporary music theoretics says that counterpoint it's not just a harmonic-melodic issue, it's also related to the texture, instrumentation, balance of sound."

Yes! More dots are connecting.

In my recent study on Frank Zappa I chanced upon a two-part breakdown of Edgar Varese who was one of FZ's early influences:
[Edgar Varese's "Deserts": Analysis ].

In that analysis Andreyev hits on what Varese was exploiting musically: "Organized Sound....Four main parameters of sound: Duration, Intensity, Frequency, Timbre, and sometimes Space."

Referring back to Dave Connor's earlier reference to Hans Zimmer's Dunkirk, it's these four parameters HZ exploits in The Oil and Supermarine.

This is likely old news to VI film composers; but, hey I'm a noob to most of this stuff.


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## b_elliott (Sep 7, 2020)

I re-worked my song De-escalate (from start of this thread) based on what I've newly gleaned. 
It is now aligned to an Edgar Varese quote: music for "the distant inner space."


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## Dave Connor (Sep 8, 2020)

b_elliott said:


> I re-worked my song De-escalate (from start of this thread) based on what I've newly gleaned.
> It is now aligned to an Edgar Varese quote: music for "the distant inner space."


Two things that might enhance this track would be a better string sound (since it is the back drop and consistently heard) and defining the rhythms of the melodic lines more exactly (the essence of what Zappa does.) Are the rhythms intended to be quantifiable? Or just sort of free against the consistent strings? If they are meant to be exact (able to be notated) you could quantize them and then perhaps humanize them a bit. I think you will get the contrast you’re looking for between the two main ideas.

My 2 cents. Looking forward to more music from you.


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## b_elliott (Sep 8, 2020)

Wow! Thank you. May I briefly describe exactly what I was going for in De-escalate. One of the effects I am attempting to create is something from thirty years ago.

Backstory: I happened to see a book of Bach's piano pieces. As I flipped through it I landed on a page chock full of 32nd- 64th notes with gobs of ornamentations on top of that. I am no keyboardist, but it looked indecipherable. Luckily at the time I had a CD of Glen Gould playing this piece. It was revelatory: Gould sounded like a jazz pianist. It was as loose as Bill Evans, but with Gould's strict timing. 

I shouldn't have been surprised since I was an MJQ fan. Still though....

I can't for the life of me recall which Bach work it was; however, back to my song De-escalate. I wanted this same loose, highly ornamental play over slow classical chord progressions. Really it needs an actual improvisor. I may call on my Vancouver kbd friend for help.

I appreciate your input and encouragement. Will see what I can cook up.


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## Romy Schmidt (Sep 14, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Sorry, but my classical training just will not allow me to accept that



I started to think that composers with classical training are becoming very rare. There is a tsunami of composers who "don't need theory" or "just use their instinct" or say "as a genius, I don't need lessons". I blame popular music. If you can hold a guitar, then you are almost a songwriter. And if you're a songwriter, then you are a composer. So, what's the big deal? Yeah, right.

The problem with classical training is that people who never were trained at a high level, don't understand how it works. They really have no idea.

The fact is that if you are intelligent, gifted, and have the money, you should study music. Unless you want to make music for which you only need trousers that are too big or glitter in your hair. And with a study I mean taking proper lessons at a high level, not reading a PDF, or watching a YouTube video.

Sorry about the rant, but there's just too much stupidity going around.


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## b_elliott (Sep 14, 2020)

I got busy on Dave Connor's suggestions re my counterpoint tune (De-escalate). I was able to connect with a keyboardist out of Vancouver, Kurt von Hahn who takes the piano part to a whole new level.

The strings are now BBCSO Discover with OT Tableau. It's rhythmically tighter. 
I learned a lot doing this; but, as Farkle says in his videos, "Now go write 50 more."

I am very grateful for the assistance given so far. Thank you.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 14, 2020)

Yes, the parts are far more delineated in that. You can get away with nearly anything as long as that’s the case. Not that random or poly or out of time things can’t work because they can. Certainly nature is filled with every cross rhythm there is. A clear, linear, music narrative (at least to the western ear) is what we’re trained to expect. Anything can be done well in the end of course.

If you can acquire some sample libraries of better quality you will feel as if you’ve improved the music 50% - without changing a single note : )


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## b_elliott (Sep 16, 2020)

A few notes mostly for later review to show what-I-was-thinking.

This piece concentrates on rhythm per Walter Piston's statement: "The essence of counterpoint is rhythm...."

Key = E minor using the word "strength" * as source for two progressions:

v(dim) bVI iv V bVII vii(dim) bVI i and,
biii iv bI iii(dim) v v iv vi

Result = Clockerpoint for Wind-up Jazz Ensemble.

* see my posting Zappa and Bach for description of this "system". It is likely part of some earlier music theory which I currently have not run across as yet.


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