# Using a spare pc



## Rossy (Apr 24, 2020)

I have a spare windows pc with 16g ram and a 6 core amd ( sorry, forgot the chip set) and I was wondering if I could use it as a slave for my music making ?
And advice would be appreciated


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## mscp (Apr 27, 2020)

Why wouldn't you be able to? Have a go at it. See how much juice you can squeeze out from it.


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

A year ago, I decided to add a PC to my Mac set up. It took a while to get things as I wanted them, the big issue being latency; sending MIDI data to the other computer, and then mixing the two sources of digital audio together. To that end, all level adjustments, effects, etc. is handled in each computer, so all you have to do is mix the computers resulting audio together and you're done.

I connected the two computers with Ethernet and used program created by Tobias Erichsen called rtpMIDI to send MIDI data from the Mac to the PC.

My original plan was to bring the audio back to the Mac via the same Ethernet connection, but I couldn't find anything that would work that was inexpensive. The other issue is that if you bring the audio back into the main computer for mixing, you will incur a lot of delay. Luckily for me, I had a MOTU interface on the Mac that has a built in Cue mixer. I used that mixer to combine the outputs of both computers.

To keep costs down, I used a miniDSP USBstreamer USB to Toslink interface ($105) to get the audio out of the PC. This interface works well, but was difficult to set up for a 44.1k SR (48.k is easy).

Good luck.


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## Nils Neumann (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> A year ago, I decided to add a PC to my Mac set up. It took a while to get things as I wanted them, the big issue being latency; sending MIDI data to the other computer, and then mixing the two sources of digital audio together. To that end, all level adjustments, effects, etc. is handled in each computer, so all you have to do is mix the computers resulting audio together and you're done.
> 
> I connected the two computers with Ethernet and used program created by Tobias Erichsen called rtpMIDI to send MIDI data from the Mac to the PC.
> 
> ...


Why not use Vepro?


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

I looked into it but it was more expensive and there was some technical reason I've long since forgotten about that kept me away from it. If it brings the audio from the second computer back to the first, you will incur more delay. Mixing the output of both computers externally eliminates that additional delay. In my case, I need a 512 sample buffer. That's at least 11.6 ms of delay every time something leaves or enters the host program in each computer. It adds up.

If there is something I am unaware of here, please let me know. I love to be wrong if it makes things better.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> I looked into it but it was more expensive and there was some technical reason I've long since forgotten about that kept me away from it. If it brings the audio from the second computer back to the first, you will incur more delay. Mixing the output of both computers externally eliminates that additional delay. In my case, I need a 512 sample buffer. That's at least 11.6 ms of delay every time something leaves or enters the host program in each computer. It adds up.
> 
> If there is something I am unaware of here, please let me know. I love to be wrong if it makes things better.



There is zero delay with VEPro...there’s a reason a lot of us use it professionally. You don’t even need a soundcard or audio interface on the slave(s), just on your master. However, I’m talking about using VI’s, not actual audio recordings, in which case VEPro will not help.


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## averystemmler (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> I looked into it but it was more expensive and there was some technical reason I've long since forgotten about that kept me away from it. If it brings the audio from the second computer back to the first, you will incur more delay. Mixing the output of both computers externally eliminates that additional delay. In my case, I need a 512 sample buffer. That's at least 11.6 ms of delay every time something leaves or enters the host program in each computer. It adds up.
> 
> If there is something I am unaware of here, please let me know. I love to be wrong if it makes things better.



VEP compensates for any delay incurred between the master and slave automatically. In a world where it didn't exist, I suppose I'd route VI slaves into a master "mix" machine through a bunch of cables and audio interfaces and just compensate for the buffer times/MIDI network latency on the master machine as best I could, but as it stands, I think VEP is really the cheapest and most convenient option.

You can buy many VE Pro licenses for the cost of one nice interface, and you get infinite (limited only by your network) outputs back to the master. The only disadvantage in my mind is the need for a ViennaKey and VSL's unfortunate license replacement policy, but as of now, I've yet to find an adequate audio-over-LAN alternative.


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> There is zero delay with VEPro...there’s a reason a lot of us use it professionally. You don’t even need a soundcard or audio interface on the slave(s), just on your master. However, I’m talking about using VI’s, not actual audio recordings, in which case VEPro will not help.


I'm not a professional and for cost reasons, use older computers. Like you, I use nothing but virtual instruments, but your comment confuses me. It takes time to generate digital audio with virtual instruments and synths, and to process the resulting audio with effects. There is always delay. It can only be reduced, not eliminated, with more computer horsepower. VEPro may have very low transport delay, but it can't have none . . . and it can't eliminate the time it takes a plugin to generate sound.

Again, I'd love to be wrong. Show me the way.


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> VEP compensates for any delay incurred between the master and slave automatically.


So, there is delay.



averystemmler said:


> I think VEP is really the cheapest and most convenient option.
> 
> You can buy many VE Pro licenses for the cost of one nice interface, and you get infinite (limited only by your network) outputs back to the master.


Again, I think it really depends on who you are and what you do. I'm very serious about my music, but it's a hobby. I added my second computer (used) and interface for about $600.


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## JohnG (May 12, 2020)

I use VE Pro. It's $213 on Sweetwater. Then you can get back to making music and not tinkering.









Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna Ensemble Pro 7


Virtual Instrument Plug-in Host Software - Mac/Win Standalone, AAX Native, RTAS, VST, AU




www.sweetwater.com


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## averystemmler (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> So, there is delay.



This does a better job of explaining the way VEP handles latency than I could:





__





Vienna Ensemble Pro Server | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info





I wouldn't call Vienna Ensemble Pro cheap per se, but at ~$\€200 for the first license, ~$100 for additionals, it is definitely cheaper than most mid/high end interfaces, and you don't have to worry about added noise or the quality of the signal path. A $20 gigabit switch and some ethernet cables are the only other expenses.

That said, if you already have the hardware and you like the way you work, there's no real reason to change. But for someone looking for the cheapest, easiest solution without compromising the sound or workflow, I do think it's probably VEP for the moment.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> I'm not a professional and for cost reasons, use older computers. Like you, I use nothing but virtual instruments, but your comment confuses me. It takes time to generate digital audio with virtual instruments and synths, and to process the resulting audio with effects. There is always delay. It can only be reduced, not eliminated, with more computer horsepower. VEPro may have very low transport delay, but it can't have none . . . and it can't eliminate the time it takes a plugin to generate sound.
> 
> Again, I'd love to be wrong. Show me the way.



Correct, but the latency is so small that it’s a non issue (and I mean virtually zero). All you need for a physical connection is a regular Ethernet cable....going from port to port. No switch or router needed unless you have multiple slaves. You could even ask VSL for a free trial if you have an eLicencer dongle already.


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I use VE Pro. It's $213 on Sweetwater. Then you can get back to making music and not tinkering.


Maybe. But, there are always problems with computer music setups. It's the very definition of too many cooks. Don't take me wrong, I appreciate your input, but I've been burned too many times to think it's just gonna work out OK. I'm very cautious about big changes. And another dongle? Yikes!


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> This does a better job of explaining the way VEP handles latency than I could:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, averystemmler. That is helpful. Given the computers I'm using, my latency settings will not be zero. So, I don't think this is going to be any better latency-wise than what I'm doing right now. But, if I ever add a third computer, it might make sense.


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Correct, but the latency is so small that it’s a non issue (and I mean virtually zero). All you need for a physical connection is a regular Ethernet cable....going from port to port. No switch or router needed unless you have multiple slaves. You could even ask VSL for a free trial if you have an eLicencer dongle already.


Yeah, that's what I have now to get the MIDI data from one computer to the other. The audio data is sent optically back to my external MOTU interface. Unfortunately, I don't have an eLicencer. If I ever add a third computer, VEPro may make sense, but I can't see adding the hassle of more licenced software and a dongle considering how well my cheap system works.


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## JohnG (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> Maybe. But, there are always problems with computer music setups. It's the very definition of too many cooks. Don't take me wrong, I appreciate your input, but I've been burned too many times to think it's just gonna work out OK. I'm very cautious about big changes. And another dongle? Yikes!



This may work for you but proposing that the OP, who's asking a pretty rudimentary question, go 'off piste' with a jury-rigged, idiosyncratic system is rubbish advice.

A foolproof system for an extra $300 may, or may not, be worth it to the OP. Dongles, so what? Let the OP decide for himself if he wants to reinvent a wheel that's a proven success. If he has nothing but time, fine. If he wants to make music, VE Pro works.


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

JohnG said:


> This may work for you but proposing that the OP, who's asking a pretty rudimentary question, go 'off piste' with a jury-rigged, idiosyncratic system is rubbish advice.
> 
> A foolproof system for an extra $300 may, or may not, be worth it to the OP. Dongles, so what? Let the OP decide for himself if he wants to reinvent a wheel that's a proven success. If he has nothing but time, fine. If he wants to make music, VE Pro works.


Well, you're rude. I was simply suggesting what worked for me. I don't know why people like you need to turn everything into a pissing contest. Of course the OP can do what he wants . . . as long as YOU agree of course, sir!


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## rgames (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> I looked into it but it was more expensive and there was some technical reason I've long since forgotten about that kept me away from it. If it brings the audio from the second computer back to the first, you will incur more delay. Mixing the output of both computers externally eliminates that additional delay. In my case, I need a 512 sample buffer. That's at least 11.6 ms of delay every time something leaves or enters the host program in each computer. It adds up.


FYI many acoustic instruments have latencies of 100 ms and greater. People have made lots of great music with those for, I dunno.... a few thousand years 

rgames


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

rgames said:


> FYI many acoustic instruments have latencies of 100 ms and greater. People have made lots of great music with those for, I dunno.... a few thousand years


True, but it's definitely an acquired skill, and rhythmic complexity increases the difficulty. A pipe organ is the most common example of this. But, just out of curiosity, what other instruments have a similar or longer delay? I'm thinking that the lower register brass and reed instruments probably have a fair amount of delay, as well.


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## rgames (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> True, but it's definitely an acquired skill, and rhythmic complexity increases the difficulty. A pipe organ is the most common example of this. But, just out of curiosity, what other instruments have a similar or longer delay? I'm thinking that the lower register brass and reed instruments probably have a fair amount of delay, as well.


Piano is around 20 - 30 ms. Flute/clar are more like 30 - 60 ms. Yes, bass instruments are even longer, lower register on a double bass can easily be 200+ ms. That's why quantizing MIDI data for orchestral instruments causes issues. The various instruments have latencies that are all over the place. And people can deal with it just fine.

Also, ever seen someone walk around stage playing an electric guitar? Sound travels at about 1 ft per ms, so if you move 10 feet from your amp, you just added 10 ms of latency. Go to one of those giant stadium setups and it's easily 30+ ft from the guitarist/keyboardist to the amps. That's at least 30 ms of latency. And they do just fine, too.

Latency used to be a problem WAY back in the day when digitial audio was brand new. Latencies were huge and people rightfully worried about it. It's not an issue any longer but people forgot to stop caring!

Here's another way to think about it: at 120 BPM a 1/128 note has a duration of ~15 ms. Have you ever seen a 1/128 rest at any tempo, let alone one as quick as 120 BPM? No, because people can't sense time scales that short.

rgames


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## tmpc (May 12, 2020)

rgames said:


> Piano is around 20 - 30 ms. Flute/clar are more like 30 - 60 ms. Yes, bass instruments are even longer, lower register on a double bass can easily be 200+ ms. That's why quantizing MIDI data for orchestral instruments causes issues. The various instruments have latencies that are all over the place. And people can deal with it just fine.
> 
> Also, ever seen someone walk around stage playing an electric guitar? Sound travels at about 1 ft per ms, so if you move 10 feet from your amp, you just added 10 ms of latency. Go to one of those giant stadium setups and it's easily 30+ ft from the guitarist/keyboardist to the amps. That's at least 30 ms of latency. And they do just fine, too.
> 
> ...


I generally agree with you. But, when playing a piano, the initiation of hand motion to resulting sound is much longer when you are playing lightly vs. pounding the keys. That's all part of learning to play a real instrument; you calibrate yourself to this variance. The problem arises for people when the sound delay doesn't match what they're use to for a given controller. The delay in my computer system is about 50.ms from MIDI keyboard in to sound output. This is about as much delay as I can stand because harder playing doesn't tighten up the delay the way it does on a real piano. So, I do think it's a good idea to reduce delay as much as possible, but it doesn't come for free.


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## Thundercat (May 12, 2020)

rgames said:


> Piano is around 20 - 30 ms. Flute/clar are more like 30 - 60 ms. Yes, bass instruments are even longer, lower register on a double bass can easily be 200+ ms. That's why quantizing MIDI data for orchestral instruments causes issues. The various instruments have latencies that are all over the place. And people can deal with it just fine.
> 
> Also, ever seen someone walk around stage playing an electric guitar? Sound travels at about 1 ft per ms, so if you move 10 feet from your amp, you just added 10 ms of latency. Go to one of those giant stadium setups and it's easily 30+ ft from the guitarist/keyboardist to the amps. That's at least 30 ms of latency. And they do just fine, too.
> 
> ...


You always blow me away with your knowledge. Thanks Mr. Encylopaedia!


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## rgames (May 12, 2020)

tmpc said:


> the initiation of hand motion to resulting sound is much longer when you are playing lightly vs. pounding the keys.


Very true. In theory a weighted hammer action controller (mostly) accounts for that but it's never quite exactly the same.

50 ms is on the long side of acceptable for me as well. I find that 100 ms is still workable but annoying. But even my laptop can do a full orchestral mockup now with < 50 ms, so it's not really an issue these days.

rgames


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## tmpc (May 13, 2020)

rgames said:


> But even my laptop can do a full orchestral mockup now with < 50 ms, so it's not really an issue these days.


I don't know how new your laptop is, but all I use are laptops, used laptops; a 2012 MacBook Pro and a 2015 HP zBook. You can get quite a lot of horsepower for very little money. They certainly do everything I need. But, I may add a third, as things get a bit tight at times.


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