# Obama and Syria



## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2015)

Does anyone else wonder if the Obama administration is secretly relieved by the notion that Putin might prop up al-Assad, thereby having a simple strongman murderer in charge rather than a loose affiliation of who knows and another theocratic chaos?

I mean, I know he(Obama) is supposed to be officially embarrassed and all...but still.


----------



## FriFlo (Oct 13, 2015)

IMO you can prove that the interest of US (and therefor most of their allies') foreign policy has always been to keep a mix of instability and despotic stability in this region, which support each other. In that sense the existence of IS as welcome as the existence of dictators like Assad. Defeating any of them would be less difficult than invading Iraq. But they won't do it. If the whole region would turn towards real democracy (if that even exists in the true meaning of the word), it would be a devastating loss to their strategy. Obama in my mind hasn't really changed a lot about these, despite the motto of his initial campaign.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2015)

I think it's hard to argue that countries in the region actually seek a Western-style democracy, but that's not so germane to my initial question.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 13, 2015)

Why should he feel embarrased?
The Supreme Spinach Chin and Putin are the aggressors now.
Before long I can see Russian and Iranian people refusing to fight and start movements to topple thier governments.
In the meantime just keep arming rebels and ISIS with "accidental" air drops like last weekend.
I think the Prez drew them in to become the new bad guys.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 13, 2015)

Please let us all know here in the UK, when the USA finally gets itself a leader. We're all very much looking forward to that day.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2015)

Not to be argumentative, but if we're to look to the U.K for a model of leadership...umm...y'all happy with your bunch?

Meanwhile, what do you think about my suspicion?


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 13, 2015)

You mean that puffy faced git that calls himself a Prime Minister Larry? Yes - I'm ecstatic.

What I think is happening is the Russians have given up any hope that The USA are ever going to do anything and have simply taken the initiative. I think Putin is right and Obama is a 'beached whale and not a wildcat' to misquote another British PM.

On a lighter note, I met a guy today who actually sold something _directly_ to Putin a week or so ago on Ebay. Putin actually gave him feedback. Awesome! I asked him if the feedback was in anyway threatening - but sadly not apparently.

Strange but true.


----------



## sleepy hollow (Oct 13, 2015)

I can easily imagine some people in Washington feeling relieved. Who knows, we might hear about that in some historical or political documentary in the not so distant future.

Vlad is an ebayer? Hm...


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2015)

I have a son in the military. He did a tour in Afghanistan and is due home soon, so I can't say I'm saddened by Obama's reluctance to enter a ground war in Syria. Admittedly, Obama's policy re the entire region has appeared indecisive, but you have to consider the fact that George Bush was considered quite decisive when he led us into Iraq. Between decisive and dumb and waffling but smart, I vote for the waffling when it involves young men and women being sent into the meatgrinders of conflicts that have no clear objectives or resolutions. The sad part for me has been the human cost. That has always been our most compelling reason to be involved, but no coherent strategy (by the world, I do not believe the U.S. should do things unilaterally) has been enacted to save people. Nor do I have any picture of what that strategy might have been.

Putin's motivations are interesting. The price of oil and gas has killed his economy. He now has war on two fronts. It's always good to keep your military engaged during difficult domestic times. I think his end game involves strutting his stuff to look like a player on the world stage, but I suspect he's casting about for ways to make that pay off financially.

All of which is just my musings- I *really* am curious whether or not people agree that the bottom of U.S. thinking, there *might* be some relief if al-Assad stays in power.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 13, 2015)

Hats off to Larry Jr. for answering the call to duty.

The people of Afghanistan can't fight for themselves. Taliban and ISIS are basically joining forces.
This is a Sunni vrs. Shia war now.

Personally I don't mind dictasters hanging around.
Still believe we "accidentally" created ISIS.
Also believe the Prez knows exactly what he's doing.
Putin risks uniting Shia and Sunni against himself IMHO.

Perhaps the young strong men who migrated to Europe can grow a pair and return as liberators.
Sure beats using our kids as targets once they remove Assad.

But a man that leaves his mother or grandmother behind then tramples over women and children to board a train first seems more like another sack of shit than a young man.

From what I see we inadvertently created armed and financed ISIS.
Iran then took the bait now Russia.

The appearance of a lack of strategy sure seems to have paid off.
Russia only makes moves when Liberals are fund raising like during 2008 2012 and 2015.
Seems like someone noticed the pattern and left a big chunk of cheese for the Rats to eat.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2015)

Larry, the simple answer is no.

Chim:

"This is a Sunni vrs. Shia war now."

I agree.

Baron Greuner:

"Please let us all know here in the UK, when the USA finally gets itself a leader. We're all very much looking forward to that day"

We got one of the best in history in 2008. And I know as a fact that you don't speak for all Brits, thank goodness.

FriFlo:

"IMO you can prove that the interest of US (and therefor most of their allies') foreign policy has always been to keep a mix of instability and despotic stability in this region, which support each other."

Why would instability be in our interest? What you see is the result of totally insane idiots in the Bush administration committing the worst foreign policy blunder in our history. They lied to Congress about intelligence, and then they were aided by a wimpy news media that repeatedly failed to do its job and inform the US public about what was going on. (Paul Krugman calls them professional centrists. It's in their interest to present two sides to every issue, regardless of reality, because then there's a conflict. And now that they've made a career of it, they can't just admit they were wrong all these years.)

"Defeating any of them would be less difficult than invading Iraq"

Do you want to try it?


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2015)

@Nick- no, you don't wonder? Our response sure has been mild.
Re "centrists"- Obama surely hasn't been that much of a fire breather until recently. Neither was our hero Bill C.

I believe there is often more nuance to situations than what one man's view of "reality " is. So does Obama, far as I can tell. The priblem comes when nuance is completely lost, as it was in the "decisive" action Bush took to invade Iraq.

Syria, for example-got any easy answers?


----------



## gbar (Oct 13, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> You mean that puffy faced git that calls himself a Prime Minister Larry? Yes - I'm ecstatic.
> 
> What I think is happening is the Russians have given up any hope that The USA are ever going to do anything and have simply taken the initiative. I think Putin is right and Obama is a 'beached whale and not a wildcat' to misquote another British PM.
> 
> .




Umm, the Russians were supplying Assad with weapons and armaments and targeting info the whole time. The only thing that has changed is now Russians are dropping bombs and firing missiles and sending in ground troops.

Russia hasn't changed its goal. They have just escalated.

We don't share their goal, but we don't really have a realistic goal other than wanting ISIL, etc gone, and Assad gone, and Unicorns riding rainbows.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2015)

Larry, no, I don't wonder whether we're relieved that the Russians are backing Assad. We're not. 

And the whole point is that there aren't any simple answers. That's why it's so annoying when you read the LA Times page 1 headline saying Putin is making Obama look weak. That's editorializing, and it also happens to be BS. 

Meanwhile, where's the nuance in false equivalence? No, not everyone has a valid point of view!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2015)

^ The last sentence is a comment on what you said, not an argument against it.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2015)

Nick-

The last thing I ever, ever want to have again is a discussion about the "I'm right, you're wrong" school of thought-so I'll leave the self assured proclamations such as ""we're not" to you, as I'm sure you speak to administration insiders daily. Me, I'm just posing a theoretical possibility.

So in your view, there is no universe in which the possibility exists that there is a bit of hindsight about the removals of Sadam Hussein, Ghadafi and Mubarek that might be kicking around in the administration, considering the respective outcomes. Okay.

I'm probably suggesting a false equivalence...


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 13, 2015)

This is an interesting era for sure.
I am not a fan of Obama's domestic nonsense where billionaire investors come before the people.
But that's Liberal Theology, no different than the other Crime Family, they answer to the same bosses.

Read media from the area and you'll see why Putin was antagonized into walking into this trap.

http://www.turkeyagenda.com/

Just like Men In Black, the rags at the Grocery Store have more truth in them than NYTimes, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal.
Another example is the 3 rags that circulate the DC area.
None of those stories ever get air time on Liberal and Conservative media.
There's big money in exposing lobbyists and lawyers/politicians in DC.
You get a really good scoop, and then sell it to the guys you followed around for 3 weeks.

In short, we started bombing Assad's forces in August.
At the same time we have fake bombing runs targeting ISIL Puppy Shelters or other meaningless targets.
Putin thought he could do the same song and dance by claiming he was going after ISIL.
All he is done is stir up a huge Hornets nest.

Next move is a GOP winner in 2016, Iranian treaty torn apart, no money for the Spinach Chins.
No Oil revenue for Putin.
Their little hit them during an election trick was expected this time.

Hey who knows maybe they'll give Hillary credit for this and she can be the 1st woman President, and the first without a security clearance for violating Federal Statutes.
Time for a Pardon.....
An old favorite Clinton pastime...


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 14, 2015)

The problem is, there is almost a perfect storm here. A perfect storm of total inactivity, appeasement and seemingly, indifference. 

You have a President that is regarded by most of the UK as utterly crap. You have a UK PM that is regarded by most of the UK as utterly crap and an erstwhile (at least in her own mind)leader of Europe, who is utterly mad.

America votes Hillary in, it's all over.


----------



## D.Salzenberg (Oct 14, 2015)

At least we don't have Blair and the U.S don't have Bush anymore! Two of the most misguided and dangerous leaders the world has ever seen.


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Oct 14, 2015)

I don't have any real knowledge about any of this, but there's something to be said for the oft overused saying about "the devil you know." Prior to the Arab Spring there were a lot of dangerous, larger-than-life characters running the Middle-East show, and Assad is one of the last ones clinging to his power. There was a minute at the start of the Syrian conflict where it was suddenly very vogue to come out as against Assad, and Obama quickly got on that bandwagon ("Red Lines" being crossed and all that), but I suspect that NYC Composer is right about him regretting that stance since it has turned out that the people Assad was oppressing and killing with chemicals, the people who would replace him have turned out to be even scarier devils.

There are a lot of folks who believe that the First World benefits from the turmoil of the others, and it's probably true in many cases, but I'm not prepared to make the conspiracy theory leap that there is an illuminati power elite pulling the strings to destabilize the Middle-East _just the right amount_. Just today I saw a fun quote that seems apropos here: 

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” 
– Hanlon’s Razor (Robert J. Hanlon)​


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> The problem is, there is almost a perfect storm here. A perfect storm of total inactivity, appeasement and seemingly, indifference.
> 
> You have a President that is regarded by most of the UK as utterly crap. You have a UK PM that is regarded by most of the UK as utterly crap and an erstwhile (at least in her own mind)leader of Europe, who is utterly mad.
> 
> America votes Hillary in, it's all over.



Baron, what is it that most of the U.K. have preferred from Obama? Please don't say "leadership", as that term is nebulous and could well apply to Mr. Bush, that decisive leader.

As to Hillary, do you prefer the posturing, preening and bellicose Mr Trump? Or perhaps the soft spoken Dr. Carson, who seems a little low information when it comes to foreign policy? You think Angela Merkel is mad- there are some really interesting alternatives to all of these people, waiting in the wings.

"Inactivity", indifference",-okay. Tell me what, in your mind, would have looked or would now look like positive activity.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 14, 2015)

Voting through the years has always been thought of as the right person at the right time for the job. My experience tells me it's not anywhere near as simple as that Larry. It's always the the wrong person at the right time. There is never any right person. That's just propaganda bullshit. As far as the USA is probably concerned, Trump is the wrong person at the right time and Hillary is the wrong person at the wrong time. You get the best wrong person you can cope with without having to vomit when you're voting.
Just putting the Middle East and Syria (tomorrow it will be someone else, probably Israel) to one side, it's the internal USA that needs sorting out first. And the economy.

Liberals are pastmasters at living in denial of real world issues.

Also, comparisons with imbeciles like Blair are completely useless. Has no meaning in today's world. Merkel tells Europe this is what is going to happen with all of what a Polish Euro MP described as 'human garbage'. The Merkel plan went down like shit filled balloon. We now see young German people on TV saying they don't wish to be diluted like in America.
The Americans regard the EU as a big pile of shit and rightly so. The UK proably does but the guy in charge is a europhile, so everything gets skewed in any presentation of the facts. The TV companies all want to stay in the EU because it's either politically (i.e the BBC) or financially (i.e Sky TV) compatible. Both companies have managed out UKIP almost totally, even though they are the largest MEP presentation from the UK in Brussels by a mile, even when just months ago the liberal vote, arguably the biggest pro euro party that was, predictably completely collapsed at the May election.

So when it comes down to leadership, the EU is a rudderless ship in a pot pourri of confusion, the UK government will implode internally over the EU, and the USA becomes smaller and smaller when it comes to their position in the world.

And then there's Jeremy Corbin. Highly amusing on the surface of it all, but if he ever came to be miraculously, the leader of the United Kingdom, either MI6 or the CIA would almost certainly have to shoot him.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 14, 2015)

> Liberals are pastmasters at living in denial of real world issues.



Thanks for that incisive analysis, and for the brilliant insight that one of the most positively influential presidents in our history is crap.

I'm sure the whole of the UK agrees with you, judging by the unanimous elections you've been having.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 14, 2015)

Larry:



> So in your view, there is no universe in which the possibility exists that there is a bit of hindsight about the removals of Sadam Hussein, Ghadafi and Mubarek that might be kicking around in the administration, considering the respective outcomes. Okay.



Each of those situations is unique. Yes, it's depressing that Iraq and Egypt (not necessarily Libya) are no better off.

But why would it be in our interest for Putin to escalate the war in Syria? Bernie Sanders could be right that he's getting into a quagmire he'll regret, but I can't imagine any reason we'd want Assad in power.



> so I'll leave the self assured proclamations such as ""we're not" to you, as I'm sure you speak to administration insiders daily.



A better question: why not just leave the insecure Batzdorf-baiting in that deep, dark cavity you pulled it out of? 

jacobthestupendous:



> oft overused saying about "the devil you know."



We've supposedly been supporting Kurds and smaller militias opposing that devil, so I don't believe that's the thinking.


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Oct 14, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> We've supposedly been supporting Kurds and smaller militias opposing that devil, so I don't believe that's the thinking.


How long and to what degree? Providing support for a coup is different than providing support for self-defense, which would be a more likely goal with "smaller militias". I know that after the "Red Line" incident that rallied the world, we began openly providing supplies and weapons to resistance fighters with the stated purpose of unseating Assad, a move for which Obama was criticized because Assad had been an ally of ours (as much as anyone over there ever has been).

It seems perhaps that this is what NYC was getting at: since it has come out that chemical weapons were likely used (also?) by Syrian rebels and many of the weapons we provided to them have ended up being used by IS fighters, and since we have seen clear illustrations of the sorts of dangerous characters waiting to fill in any power vacuum left in the Middle-East, it would not be unreasonable for Obama to regret backing the rebels' play and to quietly be glad that the Russians are sweeping in to support the devil we know.

Foreign policy is ridiculously complicated. Friends yesterday are often enemies today and occasionally friends again tomorrow. From a foreign policy perspective, Assad is far preferable to IS; he is interested at least in self-preservation, which gives us more bargaining leverage with him than we have with anyone in the Islamic State.

As I said before, I don't have a lot of knowledge on this subject, so I apologize if I have facts wrong.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2015)

It's a rapidly changing world, showing your cards is not wise.
Best to appear as indecisive and weak, talking about the enemy being mother nature and
climate change, when actually in the shadows other operations are going exactly as planned.

Just like Merkel opened her arms to Syrian refugees for 4 weeks then said OK that's enough.
Seems like a confusing decision, but I am quite sure she knows exactly how many people
she needs to bring into the labor force for cheap wages.

Does anyone actually think Obama knew what to do with an Oil Spill in the Gulf back in 2011?
Sure, he walked up and down the beach with the distraught look on his face, but the same people who moved money around for Bush were the same people who came in and dispensed the 20 Billion dollars to the people
most hurt by the tragedy. Those are the decision makers, not these lawyers.

The folks who really did well were Liberal investors like George Soros.
He called for a moratorium on drilling there knowing that the rigs would move to Brazil and Mexico, so once he got the heads up he invested billions in Oil, as most Pro Climate Change investors do, then comes the moratorium.
Insider trading is part of Liberal Theology.

The "War On Coal" was another side show as no Plants have been shut down as promised, but the fake speeches and warning of Earth dying helped drive down the stock value to a record low, as people actually believe the shit these "leaders" rattle from their mouths, so again the cash Soros made from Oil was reinvested in Coal, like most great Climate Change investors do.

While Oil and Coal billionaire Liberal investors get their way, the big Defense Corporations like Boeing and Raytheon get hundreds of billions in money to move overseas and even go to other States where Unions don't exist, all while the same "leaders" cry foul, and attempt to look angry, when actually it's already written in stone since they too invested in Liberal crony capitalism.

Trust me, these people know exactly what they are doing, and it's always the exact opposite of what they say.
You can keep your doctor ...Period.
Greedy Insurance CEOs need to be brought down.......Yeah, now we pay their record salaries and the middle class gets screwed as usual.

I think the middle class is going to show it's power in the coming election.
There just aren't enough Liberal Slaves to vote in the entitled Queen Hillary.
I saw the highlights today of the Debate and now realize Bernie doesn't want to win.
If he did, he had a chance to take out Clinton during the staged event, yet he appears as the other suck asses on stage do, they want Hillary to win so they can get a gig at the worlds largest shake down operation.
The Clinton Foundation. It's sole purpose is to help the little people all over the world since they are stupid, uneducated and can't dig a hole for water or catch a fish.

My pension fund announced 15 billion dollars was going to the foundation to help create jobs....?
Alternative Energy is not a strength of the AFL-CIO, so in a few years we'll see the same lies as nothing changes, just the amount of cash in their accounts.

The Sheep Shall Clack Their Hooves In Approval....


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2015)

@Nick-my man, if you don't get that you bait me with every one of those definitive conclusions sans exposition, you can join the Batz-baiting in that deep dark hole  Btw- so you're insecure?? Funny, never saw it that way.....hmm...

Btw, you seem perfectly happy to debate things with me, and I'm happy to debate with you. We know each other pretty well by now-you take shots at me, I take shots at you. Why not assume they're reasonably good humored? I can use more smileys if it helps..?

As to the substance of your answer, we don't know who in hell we're backing or how any of it will turn out. The situation there is a clusterfuck of major proportions, and our efforts to find a horse to back in this race have been fruitless, which is about the only conclusion most of America seems to agree on. Also, these situations, though individual, are by no means completely unconnected.

@ Chim- Baaaaaaaahhh!!

@Baron-maybe you just decided to muse on, but you didn't answer my question in any way.

@Jacob-yes. The devil we know is an evil mofo. The ones we don't look even more menacing, especially since the ultimate struggle for control will probably end up with substantially more bloodshed. It's a pretty horrible situation with no clear answers, and the Syrian people (and Europe as things go along) are paying a terrible price for it.

Obama doesn't want to be Vietnamed, a lesson Bush would have been wise to learn, and I support him in that. However, the initiatives we HAVE engaged in make us look very much like we're floundering-which we are.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2015)

Where are we floundering...?
You mean the public announcements of missing millions...?
Investors are getting their ROI, nothing new there.

Our position is purely reactionary.
When winning is not desired, regulatory processes can bring the desired results.

I still think the Prez is not stupid but very crafty when it comes to allowing Putin to take credit.
Notice ISIS new warning was pointed not at just Americans now but Russians...?

I have been told of a certain sea snake which has a very unusual method of attracting its prey. It will lie at the bottom of the ocean as if wounded. Then its enemies will approach, and yet it will lie quite still. And then its enemies will take little bites of it, and yet it remains still.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2015)

We are floundering when we spend hundreds of millions looking for people to train and can't find anyone.

We are flounderng when we initiate a policy of supporting rebel factions whose goal is the removal of al-Assad, yet have bloody agendas of their own.

We are floundering when we can't seem to form an effective coalition of both Western and Eastern powers and determine and implement a coherent strategy. Regardless of what they say, the anger about Iraq and historical resentments, the world still looks to us for leadership.

We're floundering because, as always, we simply can't project possible results and prepare to nation build and, just for *once, *actually finish a job.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2015)

But you honestly think that a website cost over 2 billion dollars...?
Or 500 million was spent on moderate Sunnis..?

BTW, what is a moderate Sunni...? Do they only behead monthly like the Saudis, and ISIS fellas are the more radical as they behead weekly...?

This is just more garbage meant for public consumption or better yet meant to show the world (if they really fall for this jive ass nonsense) that we are corrupt, stupid and have no clue what we are doing, yet defeated the best equipped, 4th largest Army in less than a week....?

You just believe the Funny Papers too much, and the dog and pony shows on CSPAN.

Remember when Obama promised to expose the special interests on CSPAN, expose corruption, etc. Lower the rising waters from global warming, yadda, yadda, yadda...?
We end up with staged media events, IRS employees taking the 5th after hiring the IMF Lawyers with tax payers dollars, yet are suppose to believe what we are told ...?

Just be glad your son is coming home in 1 piece.
Having Liberals at the top posts at the Pentagon or any federal agency is bad enough.
They buy Ambassador seats and send the party animals to Columbia to buy hookers, let China steal secrets and private information on millions of loyal workers, and then tell you your private information on your health care and life in general is safe over at the IRS...?

Come on Larry, your wool cannot be that thick to believe these stage events are based in reality....
These clowns are the most corrupt self serving people ever to take office.
There's a reason Americans have sent them packing twice now.
Their brand of "helping" people costs too much tax payer money, and they can't even remember their own lies.

2016 will finish off these worthless Liberal slave owners, Trump should easily destroy the GOP during the Primaries.
Then if we're lucky the Queen can retire after being defeated by Trump (since Sanders does not want to win) at the Clinton Foundation and shake down wife beaters in Gulf States for millions as she promotes womens causes.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2015)

Chim-I'd rather be a sheep than a mental patient who, improbably, keeps getting access to the Internet despite being in lockdown 

I very much disagree with your last premise. I'm quite sure Bernie wants to be President-I'm equally sure Trump doesn't. That would actually be hard, underpaid and tense work, in a situation where people would be fighting him at every turn. He doesn't want the lifestyle.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2015)

Sad that the only authentic candidate bowed to the big donor Queen.

Maybe he'll be a good head of the SEC in NYC.

I have seen Sanders fighting for years in commitees.
Watching him cower to black lives matter and Clinton is pathetic and most disappointing.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2015)

(sigh)

Ok, at least sorta get back on topic. WWBD in Syria?


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2015)

OK.
But why are we there.
Wait......dont spoil it. Innocent people are dying.

So by that school of thought why doesnt Obama send in troops to his neighborhood where 60 blacks were killed in the month of September.
I dont see Arabs organizing militias on our southern border demanding an end to the violence in Liberal neighborhoods.

I didnt see wealthy UN leaders stop massacres in Africa or even in Mexico just a few years ago.

So why do we seem to think we have a voice in what Arabs want to do to each other.

Seems I remember Hillary Clinton saying Assad was moderate.
She might say she was wrong.
Fact is shes never been right. But deserves to be a President so she can bring more losses upon us.

Sheezus. We're phoked........


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2015)

"The answer to 'why are we there" is "we aren't". Dig?


----------



## gbar (Oct 15, 2015)

I take a 50,000 foot view of this thing:

In 2003, we invaded Iraq, and Northern Syria not only became a source of jihadist militants joining al-Queda affiliates, it was also a kind of safe haven and a smuggling center for those groups.

In 2006, Syria's drought started, and it continues to this day. To make matters worse the agricultural sector was heavily dependent on extracting ground water faster than it could be replenished.

To make matters worse, the Global economy was hit by a recession in late 2008.

To make matters even worse, the agricultural sector in Northern Syria was collapsing in 2010.

So you had 1.5 million people displaced and making their way to Syrian cities, high unemployment among this group, and returning fighters and a militant presence. This set the stage for rebellion, and despite all the hype about an Arab Spring, the optimism was, IMO, a complete misread by Western media of facts on the ground in Syria.

It is natural that the US would oppose Assad as he was most closely aligned with Moscow and Tehran, and he had been unhelpful--understatement--with our bogus venture in Iraq. Unfortunately, the quest for "moderate militants" was as ridiculous as it sounds, not that many of "our Sunni partners" in the region seemed to be bothered by that oxymoron.

It is also natural that Russia would support Assad and has continued to do so, and honestly Putin is probably doing us a bit of a favor, but our Government naturally wants to insist Assad be replaced "when order is restored" and worries that the Russian escalation will take out all opposition, so there may be no deal for a "transitional government". To wit, you hear folks--including candidate Clinton talking about No-Fly zones, and to be honest, I do not know how tenable that sort of thing would really be or exactly who we'd be protecting.

The most disturbing talk by the most hawkish members of our Government and defense establishment in the US (e.g. Petreus et al) involved funding and supplying arms to al Nusra, and that's basically al Queda in Syria. Not good guys. That kind of Machiavellian crap could bite us in the ass, IMO.

If the local politics in the US seems muddled, try stripping out the partisan BS, and just looking at Syria, and then tell me how it's not going to be muddled? You have countries in the region willing to engage in conflicting proxy wars, Northern Syria became a operation center for militants, the Russians have a base they want to protect, and even if you could wave your magic wand and end the civil war, you aren't going to resolve the water and agriculture issues only made much worse by civil war (many farms are never coming back).

I don't see a scenario where things aren't muddled in the near future.

The horror in all of this, of course, is that many innocent people are caught up in this blood bath.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 15, 2015)

I guess Hillary doesnt want to talk about how she funneled weapons from Libya to Turkey to Syria.
Learning absolutely nothing from the mistakes Bush made in Iraq. Obama and Clinton denied security to those they placed in harms way that were murdered. Even after weeks of security breaches like the hole blown through the wall for militia to pour in during an attack. They instead were more concerned about keeping thier j obs so they were busy fundraising when the pleas for evacuation came.

But those weapons they sent to Syria brought increased levels of violence making us the bad guys once again.

Fast forward to the current crisis. Its out of control.

So why would the same people who made these stupid decisions think they deserve to be the next President?
Biden is also a poor choice as is anyone associated with these failed Liberal policies.

Sanders would have made Hillary a loser by simply mentioning failed Policy in Libya.
Since then the birth of ISIS. The fall Yemen....etc.

Hence Vlad coming in to become the new bad guy.
Its either him or more intentionally failed Liberal policy.

This is why I believe failing on purpose was brilliant.
Welcome the Supreme Spinach Chin and Putin.
The new bad guys.

Turn failure into victory and get out of Syria and Turkey.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 15, 2015)

Larry:



> As to the substance of your answer, we don't know who in hell we're backing or how any of it will turn out. The situation there is a clusterfuck of major proportions, and our efforts to find a horse to back in this race have been fruitless, which is about the only conclusion most of America seems to agree on. Also, these situations, though individual, are by no means completely unconnected.



Right, and unfortunately it's almost always better to have a stable country with an offensively brutal leadership than to attempt "regime change" and substitute something worse. And that seems to be more likely when we foment revolution or, worse, invade.

Hopefully that historical lesson is what's stopped us from invading lots of places, including Syria.

But I just don't see the next step, that we're glad Russia is bombing to support Assad. They're just making that horrible war worse.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 15, 2015)

Nick- I agree. We don't seem to be learning that lesson, though at least Obama has resisted a lot of pushback towards putting our troops on the ground.

Re Russia-short term, no question, they're making things worse-yet if we were humble enough (we're not) or pragmatic enough (we're not) to say that at this point it might be better to step back and let them prop Assad up as any sort of stability in the region, even led by a murdering bastard, would be better than the horrorshow that's happening now.

It's the old bread or democracy dilemma, yanno? Democracy's great, but given the choice...

The way I figure it, Obama could never say he was pleased about it, but he's a pretty compassionate guy. At some point, any sort of relief from the suffering must have crossed his mind, or at least so I suspect. Really, I doubt we'll ever know.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 16, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Thanks for that incisive analysis, and for the brilliant insight that one of the most positively influential presidents in our history is crap.
> 
> I'm sure the whole of the UK agrees with you, judging by the unanimous elections you've been having.



Nick, we need the USA to get on track and sort the world out, or if not, what then? Then can't do that if their house is in disorder.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 16, 2015)

Personally I dont think the USA needs to do jack shit.

We provided an umbrella of protection so others could grow thier economies and flourish.
This was completed long ago.

If breastfeeding is still necessary I suggest such nations find a new mommy.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 16, 2015)

Well Chim, that would fit in with my narrative of stepping back and letting Putin try to prop up al-Assad, wouldn't it.

Interestingly though, the operative word is "try". Putin may well find himself in another Afghanistan- which also works for us. Ditto the Iranians.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 16, 2015)

And thats the plan.
It worked and really started the minute we celebrated the fake nuclear deal.
Since then Iran has showed aggression. Russia has moved in.
Palestine got the go ahead to use children to commit crimes.
All of the bad guys are on the move for everyone to see.

UAE Jordan Turkey and Saudi Arabia can step up to the plate. If not at least hire mercenairies like Iran does.
Theyll never see those hundreds of billions no matter how badly Liberal staffers want to appease them.
Afterall. They are the micro managers are carry out the orders.
The Prez is strictly a fundraiser these days.

That is exactly why our adversaries wait until elections and transitional periods.
Telling our leaders they have to stop fundraising and make decisions is most annoying.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 16, 2015)

Baron wrote:



> Nick, we need the USA to get on track and sort the world out, or if not, what then? Then can't do that if their house is in disorder.



But what does that actually mean?

Larry wrote:



> Putin may well find himself in another Afghanistan- which also works for us.



Ironically, you do know that invading Afghanistan during the Carter years was what finally broke the back of the Soviet Empire? It was a Zbigniew Brzezinski policy to draw them in, continued during the Reagan administration.

This is just the first link that comes up when you search for "zbigniew afghanistan soviet empire":

http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 16, 2015)

This is a so wide field. Opinions and prejudices are circulating on the internet, and you can not trust the mainstream media. We Europeans know that America has introduced many mercenaries in Syria, as they did in the Ukraine, and that Putin has also bombed these.
Also interesting is this: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43085.htm


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 16, 2015)

http://de.sott.net/article/19592-Au...-voll-mit-US-Waffen-Groes-ISIS-Lager-entdeckt
Sorry, this is in german language ... .


----------



## AlexandreSafi (Oct 16, 2015)

Personally, I am a strong defender of President Putin, and this isn't even a mainstream view in my country, it just takes serious investigation of the speeches & discussions he made to realize the current importance of restoring Nationalism by our own means (mainly delete the EU off the geopolitical landscape & crash the U$ dollar, and sorry if this is news, but the latter is going to happen...) & non-interventionism + a willingness to listen & discuss each point of views, but I have ultimately come to one big conclusion specifically for politicians: Look for who's consistent! 

--I have seen none of that from Mr. Us President "2009 Nobel Peace Prize Winner..."--

Obama=GWBush on foreign policy, more of the same, except that now it's worse..
And this is why:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/.
-(Probably not that accurate, but pretty close...)-

Seriously, are you all able to tell me this is the same guy who inspired billions of people back in 2008? because i can't find the man anymore... He just probably had to disappear right after that public oath of office with some god knows other obvious secret oath he had to make when he came into the White House!

Putin has the (international) law on his side, especially with Syria, The USA never expected in a billion years that Russia, who by the way seems be the only legitimate country whose support is solicited in Syria, would actually start taking the matter in their own hands (and apparently Putin did within of course just 72 hours what the West failed to do in a year), making US occupation/"support" in Syria since then look deceiving, i actually think Putin, and this is not a quick judgement i'm making here, is one of, if not the greatest man & leader of our time, and like all great men in their time you will find some of the most divisive views before all people catch up. Pity my youth & sorry to those who find that absurd, but i dare say what I just said is just the truth...

To those interested, even if it won't change anyone's minds...




What a perception deception! 
US Presidency doesn't exist, it's more like a highly exposed spokesperson, not for the people, but for the wealthy elite who will make a brief appearance in the media once every ten years with an occasional sighting when they decide to come out of their mansions and plan the next Bilderberg agenda/meeting in some Highland emptied out Austrian Hotel or something!
It's time people stop be so afraid, or even eyes wide shut to the word "conspiracy", as if it's still something closer to fiction than a realistic concept, because quite frankly everything since mainstream 1963 JFK & 9/11, but of course since long before points to one: The idea of Freedom, your ultimate treasure, has been raped! There are some powerful people in your own country, far from being patriotic, who do not want that kind of America, just like there are some powerful people in Europe who clearly & collectively do not want Europe to be a real Europe...

It's time people accept how much bad foreign policy affects your own domestic policy! Think seriously for one second and follow where all the money is spent on!
I'd be American, part of me I ideally am, I'd be much more angry at my own government than mainstream media wants me to be!

Boy I remember America, that America which i still believe in, based on this perfect little philosophical document called "The Constitution of the United States" made by some of your greatest Scholars & Thinkers in History, yet Today we live in an age where speakers of Truth are labelled Propagandists and where even philosophical universalities contained in this document are questioned by US politicians and "conspire" to make you, the people, convinced it's in your best interests to change it, as if we now know something the Founding Fathers never knew or forgot to think about!


Best to you my fellow Americans & musicians whom I deeply & sincerely love, 
-A-


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 16, 2015)

Simply the truth, Alexandre!


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 16, 2015)

I am sure about this:


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 16, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 16, 2015)

I admire your zeal Alexandre.
If I were Russian I would be quite pleased with the Vlad.

I think President Trump and him will be buddies.


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 16, 2015)

Yesterday in a interview, Obama told the rest of the world that it wasn't a good idea to start so many wars ... .


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 16, 2015)

Wow, Alexandre. You're right, you're very young. That doesn't mean your opinion isn't valid, but it draws a dividing line between us. I am almost three times as old as you and I have seen some things. Let me address a few points.

1. I am not a big fan of "nationalism" personally, as I find it divides people along stupid, jingoistic ideological lines. The nationalistic pride Mr. Putin is trying to instill has now led to two recent military conflicts. People die in military conflicts, and most of them are geopolitical struggles for primacy. The Syria incursion may end up equalling the folly of Russia's war in Afghanistan (and our own).

2. That bit about deleting Europe from the geopolitical landscape and devaluing the U.S. dollar would hold more water if the ruble wasn't crumbling and the exports of Russia's only real source of income (oil and gas) hadn't crashed. Let me know how that all works out.

3. "No*n-*interventionism"?? Ummm...huh??

4. Debt clock? Ok. What happens to China if they call our debt? Or Saudi Arabia? Or, for that matter, Russia? It's a global economy, my friend. Crash the world's largest economy (and the one with the biggest nuclear aresenal) and see how that works out for Mother Russia.

5. I agree that Putin doesn't have to bow to oligarchs-not as long as he can poison them or send them to gulags for disagreeing with him.

6. "international law"? I bring you Ukraine.

7. I suggest you not post videos from fictional television prigrams to bolster your point of view, regardless of how eloquent the highly paid Mr. Sorkin can be.

8. The Constitution, despite the bullshit "strict constructionists" like Justice Scalia, was always meant to be a living, breathing document.
The world does not stop evolving. Hundreds of years later, there is, or should be, social progress and new understandings. Unless you long for the days of Czars, of course.

None of my opinions are meant meanly. I applaud you for thinking and takng positions. More people your age should. Cheers.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 16, 2015)

First of all China cannot "call in our debt".
They can however sell it after x-amount of years.
They make so much money on interest they wouldn't dream of losing the Golden Goose.

And nationism is great. But better used in sporting events where it is tolerated..
Which brings up an interesting point of division.

Division using race, wealth, gender and religion seems to be what this administration started on day 1 almost 7 years ago.
I was so disappointed and continue to despise these tactics used to divide Americans against each other just so a group of lawyers can say they won thir case.
And while Putin tells his people he has thier best interests in mind, they believe him.
When our leaders speak we become angry as we know they have lied to us on really important issues and continues to do so.

Is it any wonder why Bernie and Trump are so popular.

Who knows how far into the trap Putin will go.
My guess is he will destroy Obama and Hillarys rebels, then pull back saying Obama doesn't want to beat ISIS.

Who do you think people in the USA and Russia will believe?


----------



## AlexandreSafi (Oct 16, 2015)

Thank you Larry, I appreciate that you took the time to put 8 concise points, i'll try my best to reply to those!

1. Just like I'm not a fan of any ultimate ideology with the "-ism" either, but ultimately i wanted to emphasis the fact that Nationalism should be a top priority in a crisis situation when the domestic affairs of a country are not ideal, (this will lead me to point.3) especially when you're a country who has lot of technological & scientific resources, but you're right: not Nationalism as a fixed-isolationist end goal sure, but again right now the goal for all of us should be domestic stability, what do you do when both your family and an entire population are physically hurt from a massive earthquake, you take care of your own family first! Nationalism is just a label for focusing on the necessary unity of a country, but wouldn't you agree on the importance of that as a 1st step before mangling in with the affairs of others?

2. I meant the European Union, just in case, but how this all works out? Sure! --Two words: BRICS alliance-- Or Eurasia, if you prefer...

3. Sorry if that wasn't clear! I'll simply say this: does the fact that i have many toys in my house, more than most kids, allow me to gatecrash someone else's party and throw all my toys in their house while I'm at it, i would assume this is as good as kindergarten/high-school behavior! I missed the part where The USA received any official invitation letter to come into all those countries and employ military means to an end, a judgement that the United States knows how to fix things "outside", where even that "end" first needs concrete actions of negotiation & diplomacy with the country you're going into, in accordance with international law, which again in most cases never happened! Not even one "declaration of war" was filled... 1.7 Trillion $ for the Iraq War, 8.3 trillion $ since 2001, nicely paid by you unfortunate taxpayers, is how much the USA lost just on interventionism, how is this still defensible in late 2015 & how does this still make anyone still focus on Putin and Assad as the bad guys, and not Washington? --Western Obscurantism, and there really is a conspiracy pattern here, if you really know how to look to what you look at...--

4. Massive chaos for sure, nobody is saying it will be easy, it's the U$ dollar after all, it took a quite a while + a few wars before this currency reached such a privileged status, which means it'll take a while to recover but again, this is a big reason why you see a BRICS alliance now such as between Russia & China & the latest oil deal, so that these countries can be safe and not victims when this happens, and if my memory serves, i think Iran might soon be added to the list... Russian Economy ain't falling anytime soon, not with the $ anyway, far far from it!

5. You can just say "Putin" is a dictator, which tells there's no way I'm going the one convincing you otherwise!
Unless you meant Ukrainian President Poroshenko, there i would agree with you, that man is just...a freakshow!

6. Well, again if you mean Putin's supposedly "fascist" actions towards Ukraine, how is me thinking that it's absolutely not what you think it is going to convince you otherwise, since after all I'm the young one, and the one putting forward my "questionable" sources! I agree with you that one should ultimately trust what his own experience tells him to see, but here i just fail to see where age plays a factor in the reliability of what i say, since quite frankly i base my judgements on which politicians have been the most/least consistent in their promises/actions! I simply suggest checking out what Putin has to say on this matter, you can't deny the excellence of his methodology giving the facts, substance of the evens to the media, and he talked to lots of them! But if you don't believe anything he says at all because he's KGB or some obvious cold dictator, then fine...surely nothing he will ever say will convince you, but I'd rather believe the one who factually caused the least damage economically, wouldn't you agree? If I tell you Putin who happens not only to be an ex secret agent, sure... but maybe more importantly is a trained lawyer who consistently swears by the law as he should, he actually saved & restored his country from serious decay when he went from Prime Minister to President during the War in Chechnya, which would yet again make Obama's best accomplishments look like a tiny sneeze in the air, Nationalism at work for the time necessary!

7. Fair enough! But this doesn't make this video any less true, and fictional isn't necessarily the opposite of truth, especially the bit about defense spending!

8. *"The Constitution, despite the bullshit "strict constructionists" like Justice Scalia, was always meant to be a living, breathing document."* I understand why ideally one might think that it's right to be free to change things, and it's true to an extent, except that it shouldn't really be here, if you really think about it! If the Constitution were so declared to be such a thing that can be openly changed at anyone in power's wish, then I believe that document wouldn't nearly have the value it has! That's why those amendments are based on "philosophical principles", wisdom, that's the ultimate discipline, the fight for true objective & timeless values in our lives which can make anybody from any country agree upon, that's, i believe, the difference from let's say a sociological or economical perspective, where surely everything fluctuates through cause & effect from an analytical & mathematical standpoint. This is then why then you need a safe landmark of philosophical thought like the Constitution to go back to just in case! Otherwise, you might as well declare any Truths such as ultimately invalid, because you just judge so... Well again, I'd rather trust & seriously not underestimate the decisions of your Founding Fathers which were all ultimately about balance & Intellectual Freedom...
If you think of social progress, you need actually not think years into the future, but actually look far back in the past for that kind of wisdom, and what you usually find is that the greatest thinkers are always of the past, so i hope you'll excuse some of my overtly "religious" faith on your Constitution! 

Cheers NYC!
Thanks for replying!
-A-


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 16, 2015)

Rather than address all of your rebuttals Alexandre, let me ask you just a few things-first, if you think U.S. intervention in foreign affairs is bad, you must be upset about Putin's incursions into Syria and Ukraine, no? I'm confused. Also, I didn't say Putin was a dictator- I implied he's a domestic murderer of his rivals. Hey, why screw around when you can just eliminate people.

BRIC alliance? I just did a job for a Brazilan dude, he educated me a bit- take a look at the inflation rate in Brazil. China and Russia playing well? Mmm. We'll see. India has huge problems of their own. 

What I think is vastly more important than a BRIC alliance is a major powers of the world alliance- Europe, Russia, China and the U.S. trying to find places where our global interests align rather than fighting for scraps in the street. It's Utopian, but I need to keep hope alive Cheers.


----------



## AlexandreSafi (Oct 16, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> then you must be upset about Putin's incursions into Syria and Ukraine, no? I'm confused...What I think is vastly more important than a BRIC alliance is a major powers of the world alliance- Europe, Russia, China and the U.S. trying to find places where our global interests align rather than fighting for scraps in the street. It's Utopian, but I need to keep hope alive Cheers.


 It's ok... Even if our interpretations vary on what Putin has done with these 2 countries, i believe he's absolutely doing the right thing...! Ultimately, you are absolutely right on this very World Alliance point, and i support you 100% on this very last sentence! You sir, are a true American!
Best NYC,


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 16, 2015)

> Personally, I am a strong defender of President Putin



Then please watch "Winter on Fire," which we saw last night. Everyone should, actually - it's just an awesome documentary about recent events in Ukraine.

http://www.documentary.org/screening/winter-fire

You will not be a fan of that disgusting piece of shit after watching it.


----------



## AlexandreSafi (Oct 16, 2015)

Thanks for the link Nick, always interested!
My Best to you! -A-


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 18, 2015)

Didnt want to believe what I read but seems like Cuba is sending troops into fight Obamas Rebels too.
Venezuala seems to be ready to commit as well.
Perfect timing as Israel is under attack.
So much for the 62 Nation coalition.

I told yuze guys Putin and the Prez are all buddies. Worked this out during the Iran Nuke deal.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 18, 2015)

This is a really good infographic:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...nflicts-in-the-syrian-war.html?ref=world&_r=0


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 18, 2015)

The friend of my enemy is my frenemy.

What a deeply fucked up world.


----------



## chimuelo (Oct 19, 2015)

I supported the Prez from day one to get the USA out of the Middle East.
Not that I believe the predictions of the old texts but the fact millions of people in the region believe them.

By having a zero footprint there would have made Armageddon less believable.

But with no clear objectives this has brought in Russia. Still not the worst thing.

Cuban troops entering the area is really bad news.

Fanatics recite the parts where all nations descend into the region.
Sad to think a young person in the middle east with little hope of a peaceful future sees this and might have cause to believe in it.


----------



## JonFairhurst (Oct 19, 2015)

International polls have asked which country is the biggest threat to world peace. I'll give you a hint: It's not North Korea and it's not Iran...


----------

