# HELP: I've been asked to write a country song



## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

A vocalist reached out to me a couple of weeks ago (she is in the country genre) because she heard some of my works in progress (I am learning orchestral and have written pop/rock in the past) and told me she wanted to branch out into that area

Well, fast forward to yesterday where she asked if I would write a country song for her - I informed her that I have zero experience writing country songs - undeterred, she reiterated her request, informing me that she no longer wishes to work with her current writing partners and wants to work with me

I am way out of my depth here

Any advice?


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## NekujaK (Jan 3, 2022)

Not that this is much help, but remember the old adage about country songs: "Three chords and the truth."

But seriously, whenever I've been asked to write in an unfamiliar genre, I just start doing my homework by listen to prime examples of the genre and deconstruct the material. Ask your singer for a list of some of her favorite country songs, listen to them, figure out how they're constructed, and even go so far as lifting chord progressions from them (it's not plagiarism).


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## Mike Greene (Jan 3, 2022)

The first thing you need to do is get a good banjo library that includes its own patterns! 

The hardest part of country is the lyrics. They have by far the best crafted lyrics, so that will be the biggest challenge. I'd put 90% of my effort there, and write the track around my lyric.

Musically, though, country is pretty easy to fake. Country artists nowadays sound a lot like pop artists, and some are even using auto-tune, so you have a lot of stylistic leeway. Listen to some country stations (that's the first thing I do when I have to do an unfamiliar style) and it won't take long to get the idea of what they do and where the differences are.

Steel guitar, fiddle, and banjo are nice touches, but be careful you're not using them to the extent that it sounds like a parody. That's a mistake I sometimes make, and it's why you need to listen to as much contemporary country as you can.

One thing they'll often do (or at least they used to do) is add an extra acoustic guitar track where they tune the low three strings an octave higher. (I can't remember the name of it.) It's a cool way to add some sugar to the track.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> The first thing you need to do is get a good banjo library that includes its own patterns!
> 
> The hardest part of country is the lyrics. They have by far the best crafted lyrics, so that will be the biggest challenge. I'd put 90% of my effort there, and write the track around my lyric.
> 
> ...


Nashville tuning


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## Kent (Jan 3, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> One thing they'll often do (or at least they used to do) is add an extra acoustic guitar track where they tune the low three strings an octave higher. (I can't remember the name of it.) It's a cool way to add some sugar to the track.


sounds like Nashville Tuning to me


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## NekujaK (Jan 3, 2022)

@Mike Greene is absolutely right... by far the most important aspect of country music are the lyrics. In addition to great storytelling, the use of word play, twist endings, double meanings, and incorporating familiar phrases are all crucial ingredients. The music itself is hardly ever the difficult part.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> @Mike Greene is absolutely right... by far the most important aspect of country music are the lyrics. In addition to great storytelling, the use of word play, twist endings, double meanings, and incorporating familiar phrases are all crucial ingredients. The music itself is hardly ever the difficult part.


Major key I-IV-V-I progression + write some lyrics with a twist = PROFIT


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## GtrString (Jan 3, 2022)

Lyrics are key, tell a story with interesting detail (the good writers know their Hemingway), do V-I patterns in the bass, harmonize the lead vocal. Overdub 6 guitars and get a hat. Done


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## milford59 (Jan 3, 2022)

If you’ve got good lyrics, you could use Band-in-a-Box and it would be a hit….. if you haven’t got good lyrics, you will be struggling. Best of luck, whichever direction you take.


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## jonnybutter (Jan 3, 2022)

Trucks; Mama; Prison; Trains


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## RSK (Jan 3, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> Trucks; Mama; Prison; Trains


I drove my truck to pick up mama the day she got out of prison. But she got run over by a damned old train. (Or something to that effect.)

But these days it seems to be beer, tailgates, and tan legs.


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## dflood (Jan 3, 2022)

Finally a topic in my lane! Here’s a great tutorial on country song writing:


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## Dirtgrain (Jan 3, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> Trucks; Mama; Prison; Trains




That's all males singing. I wonder if there are a bunch of trendy lyrics from female singers.


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## Dirtgrain (Jan 3, 2022)

I get the sense that a lot of what makes a country song is the accent of the singer. Maybe the singer can do something with whatever song you write.


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 3, 2022)

Ask her to give you some examples of the kind of song she'd like. You'll get an idea pretty quickly of whether you can pull it off. 

Writing a good Country song is not easy. People work at it for years and years. 

Band-in-a-Box could provide some effective short cuts for coming up with a backing track. But it still won't write the song.


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## YaniDee (Jan 3, 2022)

I watched a New Year's eve concert from Nashville the other day, and the traditional country style was practically non existent..it's leaning more towards ballsy rock these days though most were wearing cowboy hats...


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## Saxer (Jan 3, 2022)

There's no song more country than in this one:


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

Tim_Wells said:


> Ask her to give you some examples of the kind of song she'd like. You'll get an idea pretty quickly of whether you can pull it off.
> 
> Writing a good Country song is not easy. People work at it for years and years.
> 
> Band-in-a-Box could provide some effective short cuts for coming up with a backing track. But it still won't write the song.


She mentioned I should listen to Kelsea Ballerini and Gabby Barrett


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## dflood (Jan 3, 2022)

Country music is actually a pretty big tent. There’s a ‘new country’ pop lane, a classic country revival, as well as alt.country, roots, Americana, country folk, etc. Ask your vocalist where she sees herself fitting in and maybe familiarize yourself with that sub genre. 

Your vocalist obviously wants some original material. As has been mentioned, the lyrics are often the trickiest part. The musical style and form is fairly narrow, although many country artists might disagree! There’s usually a heavy emphasis on story telling, tongue-in-cheek lyrics and clever turns of phrase. One of my personal favorites is Mary Chapin Carpenter for her brilliant lyric writing. I don’t listen to top 40 country at all, but I often listen to great artists like Lucinda Williams, Roseanne Cash, Nanci Griffith, Sean Colvin, Patti Griffin, Gillian Welch, and Eliza Gilkyson, who all tend to operate more on the fringes of country. Check out their work.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

dflood said:


> Country music is actually a pretty big tent. There’s a ‘new country’ pop lane, a classic country revival, as well as alt.country, roots, Americana, country folk, etc. Ask your vocalist where she sees herself fitting in and maybe familiarize yourself with that sub genre.
> 
> Your vocalist obviously wants some original material. As has been mentioned, the lyrics are often the trickiest part. The musical style and form is fairly narrow, although many country artists might disagree! There’s usually a heavy emphasis on story telling, tongue-in-cheek lyrics and clever turns of phrase. One of my personal favorites is Mary Chapin Carpenter for her brilliant lyric writing. I don’t listen to top 40 country at all, but I often listen to great artists like Lucinda Williams, Roseanne Cash, Nanci Griffith, Sean Colvin, Patti Griffin, Gillian Welch, and Eliza Gilkyson, who all tend to operate more on the fringes of country. Check out their work.


Well, she definitely wants to have a "hit" (who doesn't?) and she is definitely more into the pop country realm


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## CyberPunk (Jan 3, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> A vocalist reached out to me a couple of weeks ago (she is in the country genre) because she heard some of my works in progress (I am learning orchestral and have written pop/rock in the past) and told me she wanted to branch out into that area
> 
> Well, fast forward to yesterday where she asked if I would write a country song for her - I informed her that I have zero experience writing country songs - undeterred, she reiterated her request, informing me that she no longer wishes to work with her current writing partners and wants to work with me
> 
> ...


If you are to write the lyrics for a country song, that is a very hard task, lyrics are usually very well crafted. Find help from a songwriter


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## YaniDee (Jan 3, 2022)

CyberPunk said:


> If you are to write the lyrics for a country song, that is a very hard task, lyrics are usually very well crafted.


The first line has to grab you..and of course the chorus.


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## dflood (Jan 3, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> She mentioned I should listen to Kelsea Ballerini and Gabby Barrett


OK, that’s middle of the road modern country rock/pop. Not my favourite but it’s where the money is! Here’s hoping you write some hits!


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## tc9000 (Jan 3, 2022)

Maybe if you buy a bunch of VSTs the song will write itself? Just kidding 

But if I were you I'd use it as an excuse to spend some bucks here: https://www.indiginus.com/


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## dflood (Jan 3, 2022)

I guess you could look at it as an experiment. Perhaps with your musical background you could add something fresh and original to her repetoire. Maybe that’s why she has sought you out?


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

dflood said:


> OK, that’s middle of the road modern country rock/pop. Not my favourite but it’s where the money is! Here’s hoping you write some hits!


I'd love to write a hit but, this exercise is good in that it is taking me out of my comfort zone




tc9000 said:


> Maybe if you buy a bunch of VSTs the song will write itself? Just kidding
> 
> But if I were you I'd use it as an excuse to spend some bucks here: https://www.indiginus.com/


You don't have to suggest buying VSTs to anyone on this site twice LOL




dflood said:


> I guess you could look at it as an experiment. Perhaps with your musical background you could add something fresh and original to her repetoire. Maybe that’s why she has sought you out?


Exactly - maybe I can have, to paraphrase George Costanza, "world colliding"


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## kro (Jan 3, 2022)

According to WikiHow:

*Stick to simple keys and rhythms.* The majority of country songs are written in the most common major keys (G, A, C, D, E, and F) and use straightforward rhythms. 

Country songs also usually follow the same chord progression: the first chord in the key’s scale to the fourth to the fifth and back to the first.
If “My Heart Left with You” is in the key of G, the chord progression would be G major to C major to D major and back to G major.
To summarize: your country song is G major to C major to D Major and back to G major. Song written. 

My own personal advice: Don't try to hard, most country, especially pop-country is incredibly basic. Your client will be happy with what you'd probably consider too simple. 

Add alternating bass. During the G chord, the bass note goes G, D, G, D. During the C chord, the bass note goes C, G, C, G. During the D chord, the bass note goes D, A, D, A.

The 2 most common country progressions are the afore mentioned G, C, D and the other is C, G, D.


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## Jotto (Jan 3, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> The first thing you need to do is get a good banjo library that includes its own patterns!
> 
> The hardest part of country is the lyrics. They have by far the best crafted lyrics, so that will be the biggest challenge. I'd put 90% of my effort there, and write the track around my lyric.
> 
> ...


The low four strings


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## davidanthony (Jan 3, 2022)

Not a VI control thread I ever thought I'd see! Some thoughts:

1. Modern country commercial hits have more in common with rock/pop/urban music than classic american country songs.

2. You'll find most charting songs don't stray too far from the following "template": 

Lyrical Themes (pick 1 per song): Nostalgia / Heartbreak / Song about a terrible romantic partner / Song about a great romantic partner / Plight of the Everyman / Zero to Hero / David v. Goliath

3. Core instruments: '90s guitars, '80s drums, and a pedal steel. Supplement with: Acoustic & Resonator guitars, banjo, bells, synth pads.

4. Arrangement/mixing is contemporary Pop/Urban (emphasize vocals and low end)

5. Song should clock in around 3-3:30 and structured as follows: 

Verse 1
Verse 2 
Pre Chorus (can sometimes skip)
Chorus 
Verse 3
Pre/Chorus
Chorus

If that sounds cookie cutter... It's because it is. Listen to the hits from 2015 and then today -- very little evolution. I have my guesses on why that is but too much to get into for a forum post. (And if it sounds like I'm dismissing the genre, quite the opposite. One of my favorites, if not favorite, to write in.)


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## jmauz (Jan 3, 2022)

I'm completely biased, but USE REAL DRUMS!! I'll give you the VI-Control discount. :D


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

kro said:


> According to WikiHow:
> 
> *Stick to simple keys and rhythms.* The majority of country songs are written in the most common major keys (G, A, C, D, E, and F) and use straightforward rhythms.
> 
> ...





davidanthony said:


> Not a VI control thread I ever thought I'd see! Some thoughts:
> 
> 1. Modern country commercial hits have more in common with rock/pop/urban music than classic american country songs.
> 
> ...


I will do my best to stick to the formula - I thought of using a song I had leftover from 20 years ago that I wrote on guitar but realized there are 3 key changes in the intro so, back to the drawing board lol


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## ag75 (Jan 3, 2022)

"Three Chords and the Truth" 

Harlan Howard


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## Dirtgrain (Jan 3, 2022)

I love "The House that Built Me."



You don't have to restrict yourself too much, and maybe what you already write can cross over easily enough.


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## Dirtgrain (Jan 3, 2022)

Love this one too:


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

Dirtgrain said:


> I love "The House that Built Me."
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have to restrict yourself too much, and maybe what you already write can cross over easily enough.



I just saw that video yesterday - had never seen it before and now here you are posting it - psychic?


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## premjj (Jan 3, 2022)

milford59 said:


> you could use Band-in-a-Box


Both RealiBanjo and Band in a Box 2022 upgrades are on sale right now.

From the Band in a Box site:

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## kro (Jan 3, 2022)

I was listening to some music of those 2 artists mentioned... the music has alot of range - singer songwriter, contemporary ballads, southern rock, folk. Good vocalists for sure.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

kro said:


> I was listening to some music of those 2 artists mentioned... the music has alot of range - singer songwriter, contemporary ballads, southern rock, folk. Good vocalists for sure.


She is looking for something along the lines of this


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 3, 2022)

premjj said:


> Band in a Box 2022 upgrades are on sale right now.
> 
> From the site:
> 
> ...


Confession - I always heard people reference Band in a Box and I thought it was some sort of sarcastic reference to producers who couldn't play an instrument - after clicking that link, I realized I am an idiot


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## kevinh (Jan 3, 2022)

Write a rock song about getting a girlfriend, new car, and a dog and then to make it country play it backwards…..at the end you’ll have no dog, car or girlfriend.


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## premjj (Jan 3, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> I just saw that video yesterday - had never seen it before and now here you are posting it - psychic?


RealiBanjo is also on sale right now,

and the Stupid Deal of the Day at musiciansfriend.com right now is Recording King Dirty 30s Open-Back Tone Ring Banjo.

The signs are all there. Your country song is destined to be a hit!!


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## GtrString (Jan 3, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> She is looking for something along the lines of this



Thats basically an 80s power pop track, with a country lyric.

U2, Carrie Underwood, Celine Dion, Lady A, Kelly Clarkson is in the same ballpark.

Start with a 4/4 rock beat with an 8th note bass rhythm, and get a topliner to do the lyrics.


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## Jotto (Jan 4, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> She is looking for something along the lines of this



Country is not what it used to be


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 4, 2022)

One of my favourite country songs. It's a perfect blueprint to follow.


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## David Cuny (Jan 4, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> A vocalist reached out to me a couple of weeks ago (she is in the country genre) because she heard some of my works in progress (I am learning orchestral and have written pop/rock in the past) and told me she wanted to branch out into that area
> 
> Well, fast forward to yesterday where she asked if I would write a country song for her - I informed her that I have zero experience writing country songs - undeterred, she reiterated her request, informing me that she no longer wishes to work with her current writing partners and wants to work with me
> 
> ...


While it's flattering for someone to think so highly of your skills as she does, it makes me wonder about her business savvy. _You_ understand that different genres of music have their peculiarities, and the difference between a song in a given style and a parody of a given style are often subtle.

There are a _lot_ of unknowns that I'd want to know about, so I could better understand what she's after. But that's just my way of overthinking things.

What are the elements that _she_ is looking for in a song? Does she currently gig? What sort of material is in her set, and what's missing? What kind of material does the audience respond to? Is she looking for something up-tempo, or a slow ballad?

What is it specifically about _your_ music that attracted her? Is it something you both believe can translate into a country song that works for her?

What happened with her prior writing partners? What role did she play in that partnership? What worked well, and what didn't? Why isn't she working with them anymore?

What's her singing range, and style?

Obviously, the better she can articulate what she's after, the better your chance of being able to deliver the song successfully.

Will you deliver a completed song, or a rough draft that that the two of you will collaborate on until she's happy with it. What's the deliverable look like - a leadsheet, or a mockup with backing tracks? What's the acceptance criteria?

Are you getting paid a flat rate per song, or retaining any rights? Is this work for hire, and it'll be her song to do with what she wants to?

I assume you're working all this out _before _starting work on any song. 

It could certainly be fun, and good to stretch your skills in a direction you haven't taken them before.

But I'd want a few more questions answered before starting work, just to make sure she and I were on the same page.


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## Virtuoso (Jan 4, 2022)

This is the perfect template:-


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## jonnybutter (Jan 4, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> She is looking for something along the lines of this



The only way you can tell this song is supposed to be country is the _clothing in the video._

We live in a moment when the industry is obsessed with purported genre and sub-genre - there are hundreds, and more being dreamed up every second - and yet *all pop genres sound essentially the same*, right down to the elocution. Honestly I hope this works out for the two of you, but there’s something v strange about the Anglo American pop music industry right now.


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## Double Helix (Jan 4, 2022)

dflood said:


> Lucinda Williams, *Roseanne Cash*, Nanci Griffith, Sean Colvin, Patti Griffin, Gillian Welch, and Eliza Gilkyson, who all tend to operate more on the fringes of country. Check out their work.


+1 on Rosanne Cash -- check out The List, an album of County classics suggested by her father.
Notes on the album here -- superb production by John Leventhal, who happens to be her husband.


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## Arbee (Jan 4, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> She is looking for something along the lines of this



Sounds to me like Kelly Clarkson and Rascal Flatts would be good listening research for this.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 4, 2022)

Been a crazy day - I will be replying to the recent posts though


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## Double Helix (Jan 4, 2022)

"Been a Crazy Day (Let's Have a Crazy Night)" might be a good working title


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 5, 2022)

Isn't what the client wants the most important factor here? As opposed to whatever flavor of Country Music someone on this forum may or may not like.

TBH, this seems like a tall order for someone without a background in writing and creating these kinds of tracks. But I hope you'll prove me wrong. Sometimes the simplest Country tunes are the very best.


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## Tapestry (Jan 5, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Nashville tuning


Yessss. Glad you said it.


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## becolossal (Jan 5, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> Trucks; Mama; Prison; Trains


Dogs, Ex-Wife, Whiskey.


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## jonnybutter (Jan 5, 2022)

Tim_Wells said:


> Isn't what the client wants the most important factor here? As opposed to whatever flavor of Country Music someone on this forum may or may not like.
> 
> TBH, this seems like a tall order for someone without a background in writing and creating these kinds of tracks. But I hope you'll prove me wrong. Sometimes the simplest Country tunes are the very best.


Speaking only for myself, my point wasn’t about what country I liked or didn’t like. It was about the phenom of an endless proliferation of (purported) genres/sub-genres producing _less_ _variety_ - producing in fact an iron uniformity. Or vice versa! Whatever it is, it’s weird. 

In the case of dubiously _country_ music, maybe it has to do with so many NYC and LA record guys having moved to Nashville? Dunno. I did a few country sessions over the years and a really great session player I used more than once would ask me before takes, “how Cow do you want this?” Or “more cow?” I knew exactly what he meant and he delivered. No cow, no country. 

I agree that the lyrics should tell a story and be clever - at minimum. But other kinds of music do that too, so I think it’s cow.

If it’s good it doesn’t matter what genre it is. good luck!


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 5, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> Speaking only for myself, my point wasn’t about what country I liked or didn’t like. It was about the phenom of an endless proliferation of (purported) genres/sub-genres producing _less_ _variety_ - producing in fact an iron uniformity. Or vice versa! Whatever it is, it’s weird.
> 
> In the case of dubiously _country_ music, maybe it has to do with so many NYC and LA record guys having moved to Nashville? Dunno. I did a few country sessions over the years and a really great session player I used more than once would ask me before takes, “how Cow do you want this?” Or “more cow?” I knew exactly what he meant and he delivered. No cow, no country.
> 
> ...


I agree. Your point is spot on. Country, and other pop-styles have taken sort of weird turn in the past 10 years. Popular music has become more homogenized than I've ever seen. My comment was directed at some of the other suggestions.


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## jonnybutter (Jan 5, 2022)

Tim_Wells said:


> I agree. Your point is spot on. Country, and other pop-styles have taken sort of weird turn in the past 10 years. Popular music has become more homogenized than I've ever seen. My comment was directed at some of the other suggestions.


Thanks. I’m glad it’s not just me 😅


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## Braveheart (Jan 5, 2022)

Many country songs have the words Whiskey and Horses in their lyric. Maybe build something from there, like ‘Drinking whiskey on my horse’ as a working title.


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## Dirtgrain (Jan 5, 2022)

Tim_Wells said:


> Isn't what the client wants the most important factor here? As opposed to whatever flavor of Country Music someone on this forum may or may not like.


Client wants a hit song, I thought. If I'm wrong on that, my apologies. Also thought the OP was looking for ideas about country music. But I'm old and slow, weak and tired.

The foreman at the ranch went and got me fired.
Down the hole I'll be sending them beers.
Missing out on herding them steers.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 5, 2022)

Double Helix said:


> "Been a Crazy Day (Let's Have a Crazy Night)" might be a good working title


AGREED!




David Cuny said:


> While it's flattering for someone to think so highly of your skills as she does, it makes me wonder about her business savvy. _You_ understand that different genres of music have their peculiarities, and the difference between a song in a given style and a parody of a given style are often subtle.
> 
> There are a _lot_ of unknowns that I'd want to know about, so I could better understand what she's after. But that's just my way of overthinking things.
> 
> ...


Re: elements - she wants something "uptempo" which I took to mean 120BPM+ until she clarified she wanted it around 100BPM (maybe my definition of uptempo is different than hers) - she has quite a few slow songs already but, to me, 100BPM still seems on the slower side

Re: my music - she was attracted to the fact that my music has a lot of different sections - not just verse/chorus/verse -- however, I am not sure a 7 minute song with 3 key changes and a time signature change would work in country music

Re: her prior writing partners - apparently, they are in Nashville and she moved back up here to the Northeast to be closer to family (beyond that, I do not know - I am sure there is gossip I could find out but I try to stay out of drama)

Re: the song - I will write the song (music and lyrics) - I will own the copyright and publishing of the song - I will make a mockup in Logic and she is free to record it with studio musicians - she will sing it and release it - there is no money exchanging hands at the moment - basically working on "spec"

Re: vocal range - F3 - G7

Re: vocal style - country all the way with a twang

Re: working things out - yes, we have discussed working all this out ahead of time and I will copyright and register before turning anything over to her



Tim_Wells said:


> Isn't what the client wants the most important factor here? As opposed to whatever flavor of Country Music someone on this forum may or may not like.
> 
> TBH, this seems like a tall order for someone without a background in writing and creating these kinds of tracks. But I hope you'll prove me wrong. Sometimes the simplest Country tunes are the very best.


100%

It is a very tall order and it is not easy - I told her I would not be writing this overnight and she understood - no idea what she sees in me wanting me to write her a country song but, I will either sink or swim and gain from the experience


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## davidanthony (Jan 5, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Re: working things out - yes, we have discussed working all this out ahead of time and I will copyright and register before turning anything over to her



Do you have an attorney? If not, you should read this book before you do anything:



In some cases registering a copyright is effectively useless because you've already given away the rights through your actions. If you're going to go it alone, make sure you know copyright law inside and out, particularly as it applies to work for hire and collaborations.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 5, 2022)

davidanthony said:


> Do you have an attorney? If not, you should read this book before you do anything:
> 
> 
> 
> In some cases registering a copyright is effectively useless because you've already given away the rights through your actions. If you're going to go it alone, make sure you know copyright law inside and out, particularly as it applies to work for hire and collaborations.



Thank you - while I am an attorney, I am not an IP attorney so, I will consult with one and take a look at that book


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## storyteller (Jan 6, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> She is looking for something along the lines of this



Hey… 

My first thought when I heard this song is that it sounds like something from Carrie Underwood‘s first album. After looking it up, it turns out that Gabby Barrett was on American Idol, like Carrie Underwood. So they definitely followed a similar structure with the writing. That’s clear. While it has different songwriters than CU’s first album, look up Hilary Lindsey. Her fingerprints are all over this song stylistically even if she doesn’t have credit. I’d suspect that the writers were either heavily influenced by her songs or they co-write with Hilary from time to time.

Jon Nite is one of the credited songwriters (and he has had a big string of hits) but it seems like it was still heavily influenced by Carrie’s first album which predates all of the credited songwriter’s publishing deals…

Also… personal opinion… don’t try to make it country on purpose. Write in the style of the recommendations I mentioned above. She approached you because either you, or something you’ve written, influenced her enough for her to want you to be on the journey with her. Productions can make it country. the players make it country. The singer makes it country. The song just needs heart… that makes it country. There is no place for cookie cutter music anymore. So be you, and let the style inspire whatever it is she hears in you.


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## waveheavy (Jan 6, 2022)

Today's Country music isn't really country anymore, it's a type of Pop. 

I matriculate from the South, and I recall in 1985 Country went 'Pop'. One day WSM radio was playing the old Country, and the next day it was playing Pop-Rock with a Country sounding twist. The Country singer Holly Dunn was getting ready to go on tour and was looking for a lead guitar player, and I was asked if I wanted to audition. I said, "I'm not a Country guitarist, I mostly play Blues and Rock." I was then told that is exactly what they were looking for. I went, "Huh?" Next day I went to the radio and listened to all the new Country. It was actually like a brand of Southern Rock I grew up with.

So to write for Country today, it's more Pop-Rock oriented, just not Lady Gaga like.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 11, 2022)

I am following up my OP with a couple of questions regarding the business side of the equation as some parameters have changed:

Aside from my writing a new song (I have since signed up for ASCAP and Harry Fox), the singer has asked me to produce a song she has written (lyrics, melody, chord progression)

That being said, the song is already copyrighted by her and another songwriter and they both own 50% of the publishing thereof

My questions are:

1. Is it true that if I am composing the music based upon the supplied melody and chord progression, then am I merely a producer, not a songwriter?

2. What are my options to getting paid royalties? I assume I need to draft a producer/artist contract

3. Do I need to get both songwriters/publishers to sign off on my producing and getting royalties?


Thank you and be well


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## Mike Greene (Jan 11, 2022)

1. Basically yes, although they can obviously agree to rework their songwriting agreement to include you, which is not uncommon. They have to agree to that, though. If not, then even if you rewrite all the lyrics and all the melody, as long as it's considered the same "song" that you started with, they'll still own 100% of the songwriting/publishing, and they don't have to give you nothin'.

2. The basic rate for producing royalties used to be 3 points. (Percentage points of MSRP price of records sold. Minus "breakage," etc. Record contracts are complicated!) Producer royalties are generally "Record one" royalties, which means you get paid on _every_ record sold (starting with "record one") rather than having to wait until the record recoups costs. This used to be one of the advantages of being a producer, because artists would often not recoup, but producers collected royalties right from the start.

I'm not sure if 3 points is still typical now. (mp3s, streaming ... I got out at the right time!) I imagine you would want to negotiate something significantly higher than 3%. Unlike publishing, there are no statutory rates for producing, so you can negotiate whatever rate you want.

With that said, producers I know who are still in the game are all taking partial songwriting credit. In other words, they don't seem to be relying on the producer royalties. I'm out of this part of the game, though, so don't quote me on that.

3. Only the artist (or their label) needs to approve the producer. That's not the songwriters' call, other than songwriters (or publisher, if there's an agreement with one) do have power to decide who gets to be first to record the song. So they _could_ make things difficult there, although that never happens.

I'm pretty sure that unless agreements have been signed to the contrary, then only one songwriter's permission is needed for that first release, though, so I wouldn't worry about that. I'm not positive about that, though.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 11, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> 1. Basically yes, although they can obviously agree to rework their songwriting agreement to include you, which is not uncommon. They have to agree to that, though. If not, then even if you rewrite all the lyrics and all the melody, as long as it's considered the same "song" that you started with, they'll still own 100% of the songwriting/publishing, and they don't have to give you nothin'.
> 
> 2. The basic rate for producing royalties used to be 3 points. (Percentage points of MSRP price of records sold. Minus "breakage," etc. Record contracts are complicated!) Producer royalties are generally "Record one" royalties, which means you get paid on _every_ record sold (starting with "record one") rather than having to wait until the record recoups costs. This used to be one of the advantages of being a producer, because artists would often not recoup, but producers collected royalties right from the start.
> 
> ...


Mike - thank you very much for that in-depth response - I definitely need to discuss the issue of adding my name as a writer but, considering they are suing one another over some publishing contract, not sure anything would ever be agreed to

The way I am thinking of it is that I think I should steer clear of working on this song and just move forward writing an original, brand new song - as stated in my OP - this current song, especially with the lawsuit between the 50/50 songwriting/publishing ownership, seems like a disaster waiting to happen


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## Hywel (Jan 11, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> ...with the lawsuit between the 50/50 songwriting/publishing ownership, seems like a disaster waiting to happen...


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 11, 2022)

Hywel said:


>


Agreed - I told her that I will not produce that song for her but would be happy to write brand new songs with her that have nothing to do with her former co-writer


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 14, 2022)

Maybe I can write something like this


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 14, 2022)

OK I am writing based on the vocalist's vocal melody but, so far, in the verses, there are only 2 chords ( snuck a third one in there in a transition)

I feel bored by there only being two chords so far but, I suppose, most country pop does not consist of more than 3-4 chords


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## Dirtgrain (Jan 14, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> OK I am writing based on the vocalist's vocal melody but, so far, in the verses, there are only 2 chords ( snuck a third one in there in a transition)
> 
> I feel bored by there only being two chords so far but, I suppose, most country pop does not consist of more than 3-4 chords


Don't forget the vaunted "Gear Change," where you step up half a step, mid-song or so. It dynamically and drastically changes everything, man.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 14, 2022)

Dirtgrain said:


> Don't forget the vaunted "Gear Change," where you step up half a step, mid-song or so. It dynamically and drastically changes everything, man.


Oh yeah I have that in my back pocket


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## storyteller (Jan 14, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> OK I am writing based on the vocalist's vocal melody but, so far, in the verses, there are only 2 chords ( snuck a third one in there in a transition)
> 
> I feel bored by there only being two chords so far but, I suppose, most country pop does not consist of more than 3-4 chords


Listen to Byron Gallimore produced tracks of Tim McGraw from the early 2000s… like the albums A Place In The Sun and Set This Circus Down. Also, check out the albums Fly and Wide Open Spaces by the Dixie Chicks and most any Garth Brooks album (Not on streaming though). Those have much better chordal structures and melodies than anything today.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 14, 2022)

storyteller said:


> Listen to Byron Gallimore produced tracks of Tim McGraw from the early 2000s… like the albums A Place In The Sun and Set This Circus Down. Also, check out the albums Fly and Wide Open Spaces by the Dixie Chicks and most any Garth Brooks album (Not on streaming though). Those have much better chordal structures and melodies than anything today.


Thanks I used to listen to Garth Brooks - even saw him in concert - he puts in one hell of a show


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## storyteller (Jan 14, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Thanks I used to listen to Garth Brooks - even saw him in concert - he puts in one hell of a show


The best. I saw him on his last tour in Charlotte before he originally retired. I've seen most every major artist on tour at least once over the years - but his was special. He started off by saying something to the effect of "I'm going to sing until I can't anymore, or you wear out first."He basically challenged the audience... which stood up and sang along with him for nearly two hours and forty-five minutes. I've never seen a more committed performer that can engage with the audience like that. By the end, he was wiped out. The audience was wiped out. I couldn't ask for a better way to see him on his farewell tour while he was on top of the mountain. It is still my favorite concert I've ever been to.


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 15, 2022)

I was listening to some contemporary Country at the dentist's office, while having 2 wisdom teeth pulled. 

I agree with those who say it's not terribly different than modern pop. It been heavily influenced by 
Hip-Hop/Rap (like all Pop has) but seems to have its own formulaic recipe that it follows. Depending on your skill set, it may not be too hard to mimic that sound


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## Wes Antczak (Jan 16, 2022)

Lots of good advice here, so I'm hesitant to add my two cents, but:

Have you considered maybe spending some time listening to your local country radio station? It seems that this would give you a fair slice of what's currently on trend. Just a thought.


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## rrichard63 (Jan 16, 2022)

Wes Antczak said:


> Have you considered maybe spending some time listening to your local country radio station?


Or check out SiriusXM, especially The Highway (channel 56) and Y2KCountry (channel 61). More generally, a lot of SiriusXM channels are specific to a decade as well as a genre. That can make it a useful resource.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 27, 2022)

Update: Vocalist sent me an _a capella_ melody with lyrics

She did not sing to a click and it turned out she wanted the song in a different key

So, I spent a lot of time listening to the vocals and playing them in as a piano melody in the key she asked for

I then created chord progressions using piano

Everything is perfectly on the grid and I even added a draft drum track

I sent over to her and she just asked that I play the chord progression in on guitar as she "cannot sing to just piano and drums"

WTF???


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## Polkasound (Jan 27, 2022)

Never assume a vocalist is a studio pro. It's one of those things you find out as you go. It sounds to me like most of her experience is in the songwriting; she probably didn't have a hand in the recording of demos, and doesn't know much about the process. It can be frustrating, but it's also an opportunity for you, as a producer, to teach her things she'll need to know moving forward.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 27, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> Never assume a vocalist is a studio pro. It's one of those things you find out as you go. It sounds to me like most of her experience is in the songwriting; she probably didn't have a hand in the recording of demos, and doesn't know much about the process. It can be frustrating, but it's also an opportunity for you, as a producer, to teach her things she'll need to know moving forward.



The thing is - since having bicep tendon reattachment surgery, playing guitar chords is actually painful - I can play melody and lead lines but holding chord shapes makes my left arm feel as if someone is holding a flame to it

So, I told her I can send her a chord chart but also told her before I do we need to sign a detailed split sheet - she agreed and I just sent her a draft thereof - let's see what happens next


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## dgburns (Jan 27, 2022)

So you’ve been asked to write a Country song?
I try, but the words all come out wrong,
No matter what I do, it’s not what I want to hear,
Heck, may as well just and go grab a beer.

…with the ex, Jeesus or whoever it was,
that ran over my dog with their truck,
my truck that got stolen with my tele in the back,
Ended up, the dog was perfectly fine, and just came back


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## MartinH. (Jan 27, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Update: Vocalist sent me an _a capella_ melody with lyrics
> 
> She did not sing to a click and it turned out she wanted the song in a different key
> 
> ...


Can you maybe just use a guitar sample library?


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## rrichard63 (Jan 27, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> She just asked that I play the chord progression in on guitar as she "cannot sing to just piano and drums"
> 
> WTF???


I completely get this. I'm pretty much the same way. As @MartinH. just said, use a sample library.


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