# Sample modeling unison problem!



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Jun 16, 2013)

Hello all.


For some time ago I bought the French horn and the trumpet by Sample modeling. The level of control is so incredible and smart. The only problem is that I'm not that good of an sound engineer and I can't manage, no matter how much I try, to make them work in unison and to make them fit into a scoring template.

cinesamples brass still sounds superior to me... Is there any tutorials out there on how to make SM brass sound more like cinesamples? I have seen the 20th fox video and imperial march videos on youtube by the SM team. Those indeed sound great! But they never tell us how they do it.


Thank you.


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## Jack Weaver (Jun 16, 2013)

Here's SM tpt and CineBrass solo tpt articulations played back to back as I have them set up in my template:

http://db.tt/vfRVPrzP

If you think this is close enough for you please feel free to read how I do this here:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31974

(about halfway down the page)

HTH

.


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## Ginharbringer (Jun 18, 2013)

The two biggest things you can do to help...

1. Use separate (and different) ER instances for each individual instrument

2. Perhaps controversal, but you can transpose instruments that would oltherwise be playing the same note, so that they are using the notes above and below the note you want, but are transposed to the correct pitch.


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## Danny_Owen (Jun 18, 2013)

You also want to use different performances (expression/breath controller particularly) for each instrument, as well as varying the other controllers such as vibrato etc. 

Think of it as a controlling several individual players who each play their part slightly differently to make up an ensemble sound. You can't treat it how you would an ensemble patch from another brass library, it will generally sound like arse (though the horns are significantly improved on this).

It takes time, but if you're willing to put it in it's worth it, and you shouldn't end up with phasey results.

In terms of mixing, I believe Sam from SM's quote on this was 'the dry sound must die!'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpjO44iTi2w 

My method is using a short (0.5-0.8 ) ER reverb, practically at 100% wet (though I do more like 90% wet 10% dry) and THEN throwing that into your hall reverbs with a bunch of EQ. Quite a few people have different theories on this one, hopefully more will chime in, but it's a topic that has been address quite a lot on this forum.

Hope that helps.


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## mpalenik (Jun 18, 2013)

Since you have both Cinebrass and Samplemodeling, want to try out the convolutions I made based on a mathematical fit? They were designed to not require any additional eq/panning/reverb and just to be popped into an output in Kontakt. There's one for French horns and one for trumpets, but they were really only made for solo instruments, so it might not help with the unison problem.

There's a weird ringing in the trumpets that popped up in the last version I made, but I've found that it goes away if you set Kontakt to filter out everything over 2 kHz or so (you can set that int the convolution plugin).

You may not like the results, I'm not sure, but it might at least be worth a try. I'd be curious to see how it works for someone else, anyway. PM me and I'll send them to you.


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## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Jun 20, 2013)

I would love to try it out mpalenik! Thanks for the great tips everyone else


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## mpalenik (Jun 21, 2013)

PMed.


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## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Jun 22, 2013)

mpalenik, I tried out your impulses. They work great. But I am having trouble reaching higher dynamics, is this a common problem?


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## Enyak (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi Jonas,

I did some post-processing tests and a step-by-step guide for SM Trumpet a while ago:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=

This is probably still pretty far away from ideal, but maybe it's a start.


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## mpalenik (Jun 24, 2013)

Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> mpalenik, I tried out your impulses. They work great. But I am having trouble reaching higher dynamics, is this a common problem?



(edit: Are you complaining about the actual loudness of the samples after you've added the impulses? The impulses don't, and can't in principle, compress the dynamics at all, but for some reason the trumpet one is kind of quiet. I usually end up turning the wet up to around 14 dB or so.)

Are you referring to the excessive ringing sound? Cutting more high frequencies might help. Also, you might notice that it doesn't seem so problematic once its in the mix. I think I know what you're referring to, though. If you listen to the Samplemodeling without the convolution, you'll probably notice that the ringing corresponds to the large amount of buzzing at much higher dynamics.

If you just want to use these convolutions without any other processing, I'd recommend cutting more highs, and avoiding extremely high dynamic levels unless its kind of buried in the mix, but I don't think there's much else you can do. It's possible that part of the problem is that I have Cinebrass Core, which has one dynamic layer on the solo horn, and so, even though I included high dynamics in my fit, it was still trying to match to low dynamic Cinebrass samples. Or it could be unrelated to that.


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## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Jun 25, 2013)

No, the impulses are doing a great job. I can't seem to reach the same ff on 'The Trumpet' as I can with the trumpet patch on Cinebrass Pro. I was wondering if this is a limitation on Sample modeling or if it's something I'm not doing right with EQ, etc?


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## Ryan (Jun 26, 2013)

Hi

Sample Modeling is a VERY hard instrument to handle. There should be a warning sign when you hit buy on their site.. It could be an awesome instrument, but It could also destroy your work flow. I have used TO darn MUCH time tweaking and tweaking those instruments (SM BRASS) that I have forgotten to actually write music. I just wanted it so sound better for every time I started a new project. 

I have a advise for you. Get a god (yeah I know I wrote god, because you need a good one) algorithm and start to experiment with that in the first place.

I have been tweaking on my SM BRASS settings for over 2 years now. -yet not come to any satisfaction with the sound. Others could disagree, but I always want more, and better sounding brass. 

This cue is with lexicon random hall reverb imitating the MGM scoring stage (Cinebrass). 
https://soundcloud.com/ryan1986/ryan-action-cue-sample

https://soundcloud.com/ryan1986/ryan-showreel-rejected

https://soundcloud.com/ryan1986/ryan-introduction-merry

What I love with these instruments are the playability. That's what makes me want to tweak more. 

Do your self a favor and use the search function and read up a bit. Theres a whole world with notes, threads yt-vids etc laying around here on this forum 

Best
Ryan


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## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah, a sign, or at least a proper set of tutorials. I recently bought B2 reverb, people are saying It's doing 'Godly' algorithmical magic. Your cues are sounding good btw.


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## mpalenik (Jun 27, 2013)

Does anyone else who has both Cinebrass and Samplemodeling want to try these IRs? I designed them with the intention of giving them away, but the fact that samples from both libraries were used to develop them (even if it was through a mathematical fit) keeps me from just making them publicly available.


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