# I mocked up a bit Mozarts Figaro..



## AlexanderSchiborr (May 17, 2018)

Hello Everyone,

I think most of you know that astonishing work of Mozart. Here is my attempt mocking up that piece with samples.

I am half way through and planning to do the complete track!

Suggestions and feedback is welcome. Hope you enjoy the Ride!



and a setting B with less roomsound:


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## N.Caffrey (May 17, 2018)

Nice one! I was distracted by the strings sometimes, as some spiccato patch felt very close and not in the same room with the other (e.g. around 11 seconds in, they're really in your face, 0.15 or the beginning further away). Have you layered perhaps 2 strings library to give it more bite? Apart from that I like the string sound a lot, is it Berlin?


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## fretti (May 17, 2018)

Awesome job!
Sounds almost like a recording
Only "weird" thing I heard so far is the string runs from 0:09-0:14; they are I'd say clearer in "real playings".
Really like the Woodwind sound though may I ask what libraries you used there?


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## Garry (May 17, 2018)

Wow, that is absolutely ****ing amazing!!

I have no idea how people do things like this. My talent is several leagues below this, but wow, I'm envious! 

Congratulations, that's really wonderful.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 17, 2018)

N.Caffrey said:


> Nice one! I was distracted by the strings sometimes, as some spiccato patch felt very close and not in the same room with the other (e.g. around 11 seconds in, they're really in your face, 0.15 or the beginning further away). Have you layered perhaps 2 strings library to give it more bite? Apart from that I like the string sound a lot, is it Berlin?



Thanks. I will keep an eye on that. I have also a version which is a bit more "hall" and there the Violins are bit more restrained. Actually I layered a lot. Yes, Berlin Strings indeed but also others, but Berlin is probably the leading tone, lets put it this way. 


fretti said:


> Awesome job!
> Sounds almost like a recording
> Only "weird" thing I heard so far is the string runs from 0:09-0:14; they are I'd say clearer in "real playings".
> Really like the Woodwind sound though may I ask what libraries you used there?



That has to do with the more close miced thing. I have a 2nd where it sounds more blurry. Yes, my goal is here to duplicate or fake a real recording. It is still in progress. I am working on that illusion. 

It is mostly Berlin Woodwinds!



Garry said:


> Wow, that is absolutely ****ing amazing!!
> 
> I have no idea how people do things like this. My talent is several leagues below this, but wow, I'm envious!
> 
> Congratulations, that's really wonderful.



Thanks man, glad you enjoyed it! No need to be, just practise a lot. I am no special guy with superman skills, I just do this stuff aaaa lot..


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 17, 2018)

fretti said:


> Awesome job!
> Sounds almost like a recording
> Only "weird" thing I heard so far is the string runs from 0:09-0:14; they are I'd say clearer in "real playings".
> Really like the Woodwind sound though may I ask what libraries you used there?



Ah I missunderstood that..No they are not that super clear, actually they are bit blurry..just go and listen to some recordings..actually thats what my ears tells me.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 17, 2018)

N.Caffrey said:


> Nice one! I was distracted by the strings sometimes, as some spiccato patch felt very close and not in the same room with the other (e.g. around 11 seconds in, they're really in your face, 0.15 or the beginning further away). Have you layered perhaps 2 strings library to give it more bite? Apart from that I like the string sound a lot, is it Berlin?


I corrected the violins a bit..


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## Divico (May 17, 2018)

Amazing mockup. Only thing I´d point out is that there is a bit too much verb for my taste, I think I´d like a bit more direct and clean.


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## fretti (May 17, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ah I missunderstood that..No they are not that super clear, actually they are bit blurry..just go and listen to some recordings..actually thats what my ears tells me.


Yeah, just listened to a few other recordings, seems like every orchestra and conductor does it a little different. So I guess that falls under interpretation


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## Garry (May 17, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Thanks man, glad you enjoyed it! No need to be, just practise a lot. I am no special guy with superman skills, I just do this stuff aaaa lot..



Only Superman would deny his Superman skills...


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## ghandizilla (May 17, 2018)

Sounds a bit too huge to my taste (and to the era taste), but we're not Harnoncourt :-P I like how the strings flow naturally, would be curious to read what you blended to get this result. (Seems like you blended _a lot_ of libraries on this one.)

I will have a second listen tonight with my studio monitors (I just had a first listen with headphones).

Would you recommend mock-uping Mozart? What did you get from it? What skills do you have the impression got a bit muscled thanks to this mock-uping? I'm always eager to add stuff to my "to-mock-up" list (have been doing lot of Kabalevsky and Balakirev lately), so just curious


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 17, 2018)

ghandizilla said:


> Sounds a bit too huge to my taste (and to the era taste), but we're not Harnoncourt :-P I like how the strings flow naturally, would be curious to read what you blended to get this result. (Seems like you blended _a lot_ of libraries on this one.)
> 
> I will have a second listen tonight with my studio monitors (I just had a first listen with headphones).
> 
> Would you recommend mock-uping Mozart? What did you get from it? What skills do you have the impression got a bit muscled thanks to this mock-uping? I'm always eager to add stuff to my "to-mock-up" list (have been doing lot of Kabalevsky and Balakirev lately), so just curious



Hi man,  Okay, well, I didn´t felt so with that huge sound. Did you listen to some live recordings (Youtube etc)? Sure..there are smaller ensembles but also bigger ensemble interpretations out there. I blended mostly Orchestral tools libraries here from Berlin Strings, Metropolis ARK 1 and 3. A little sometimes from Spitfire symphonic strings. Also from the expansion A+B and a lot of stuff is layered by solo violin. (one cost 14 dollars and the other is even free)

I would recommend it when you want to learn voice leading, form and repetition and melody, but...my approach is here to make it as realistic as possible which is an undertaking..I don´t know..do it..I take always "something" out of it. Somtimes I learn some licks, some chord progressions..stuff like that..orchestration of course. Try the mozart piece out! Just mock up that first agile run in the beginning. It teaches you a cool orchestrational preset.


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## ghandizilla (May 17, 2018)

It's close to modern interpretations, so it's still legit. But if you compare to more historically-oriented interpretations like Charles Mackerras', you'll hear the strings still sound a bit thick in your mock-up. You can also hear how greatly the orchestra is balanced in your mock-up.

I see what you mean by interesting chord progressions, and they are cool orchestra devices at the beginning. You might also learn a lot concerning voicing and balance. As you put it, there is always something to learn with this kind of exercize. Even on the technical side, you obviously verbessertest your template mixing and layering techniques to get this result.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 17, 2018)

Brilliant mockup!!
I'm really picky about "realistic" mockups (you might remember my "Live or Midi?" game - I would be hard to do another one because...-) in my view 99% percent of VI productions are not realistic at all.
This one is standing out!

The weak parts I think are some of the woodwinds (blurry, a bit like sustains rather than legatos in the beginning and at 2o seconds in - also a little bit bumpy at 2o - 23 seconds - CC curves to harsh maybe...)
Also the last 2o seconds are not as cohesive as the rest of the track - could be because it's work in progress there.

Overall I think this is really well done! All non-existent hats off!! :D

+ Although I'm generally a fan of room sound I clearly prefer version one. I'm not super familiar with classical recordings and music but it just feels more authentic...


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## Garry (May 17, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hi man,  Okay, well, I didn´t felt so with that huge sound. Did you listen to some live recordings (Youtube etc)? Sure..there are smaller ensembles but also bigger ensemble interpretations out there. I blended mostly Orchestral tools libraries here from Berlin Strings, Metropolis ARK 1 and 3. A little sometimes from Spitfire symphonic strings. Also from the expansion A+B and a lot of stuff is layered by solo violin. (one cost 14 dollars and the other is even free)
> 
> I would recommend it when you want to learn voice leading, form and repetition and melody, but...my approach is here to make it as realistic as possible which is an undertaking..I don´t know..do it..I take always "something" out of it. Somtimes I learn some licks, some chord progressions..stuff like that..orchestration of course. Try the mozart piece out! Just mock up that first agile run in the beginning. It teaches you a cool orchestrational preset.



It's a great suggestion, but this would be too much for me to start with. Any suggestions of something easier, perhaps that you've mocked up in the past, that would help those of us just starting out?

I was so impressed with your mockup: there are several that have been posted here recently that confirm that we're getting to the stage were VIs are sufficiently indistinguishable from real instruments, that we're almost across 'uncanny valley', in the same way that Google's recent demonstration of voice reproduction was indistinguishable from the real thing too. Sure, there will be no replacement for listening to real players live (I can't see concert halls being packed out to listen to VI mockups!), but when it comes to recordings, the vast majority of listeners (I include myself) will be thoroughly convinced by these mock ups.


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## Parsifal666 (May 17, 2018)

Great listen! Sounds like a couple of the levels could be tamed.

The largeness of this reminds me of one of my favorite recordings of Mozart's music: the Beethoven-sized versions of the last three symphonies, conducted by the venerable Herbert Von Karajan (the last movement of the Jupiter on that recording...you've got to hear it to believe it). You took what I believe would be considered a chamber piece and blew it up in a very cool and different way imo.


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## Ben E (May 17, 2018)

I don't know what to say, man. If I hadn't known in advance that this was a mockup I'm pretty sure that it would never have crossed my mind that it was. In fact the woodwinds do a couple things that I'd probably have found myself thinking something like, "Hmm. I wonder if midi could do that." Maybe it's a combination of the room, the mix and the performance. Whatever it is, this is the kind of "recording" I like to play to people who think that midi music still sounds obviously fake. Incidentally, I played the "real or fake" test of @DarkestShadow for half a dozen music supervisors here in Hollywood who believe they can tell the difference, and none of them scored any better than a coin toss would have. I think this piece would do the trick too.


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## yhomas (May 17, 2018)

Wow! The mockup and mix is right on the money for me overall--listening to the 2nd one (1st one has too much noise). I agree that there are some blending issues; close mic or solo jumps out at ~12 and 24 seconds; a funny stereo imaging shift in string note at ~50 and 56 seconds (listening on cheap headphones). Maybe punch it a bit harder on the tympani? But overall this is really impressive.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 17, 2018)

Divico said:


> Amazing mockup. Only thing I´d point out is that there is a bit too much verb for my taste, I think I´d like a bit more direct and clean.



Thanks! Well I didn´t felt to much verb, but according to very dry recordings it has a bit more reverb. My setting is influenced by big orchestra recordings in a hall. 



fretti said:


> Yeah, just listened to a few other recordings, seems like every orchestra and conductor does it a little different. So I guess that falls under interpretation



Yeah, see? :D Those fast lines blur slightly because of the timings, + the hallsound. Both comes together, probably even more the ambience is a factor here. Because they can play butt-tight..



ghandizilla said:


> It's close to modern interpretations, so it's still legit. But if you compare to more historically-oriented interpretations like Charles Mackerras', you'll hear the strings still sound a bit thick in your mock-up. You can also hear how greatly the orchestra is balanced in your mock-up.
> 
> I see what you mean by interesting chord progressions, and they are cool orchestra devices at the beginning. You might also learn a lot concerning voicing and balance. As you put it, there is always something to learn with this kind of exercize. Even on the technical side, you obviously verbessertest your template mixing and layering techniques to get this result.



Yes, the approach are beethovenized Mozart interpretations in the vein of H. Karajan. I always work with specified templates, not a universal one. That would not work for a couple of reasons. 



DarkestShadow said:


> Brilliant mockup!!
> I'm really picky about "realistic" mockups (you might remember my "Live or Midi?" game - I would be hard to do another one because...-) in my view 99% percent of VI productions are not realistic at all.
> This one is standing out!
> 
> ...



Thanks Lionell! Actually lyrical expressivo winds are incredibly hard to pull of with samples, eben with the best sample libraries. Winds in that context play with intention and have a lot of expression with molto vibrato which samples often just don´t have enough..plus other things..well I give my best so that the final version will be better.


Garry said:


> It's a great suggestion, but this would be too much for me to start with. Any suggestions of something easier, perhaps that you've mocked up in the past, that would help those of us just starting out?
> 
> I was so impressed with your mockup: there are several that have been posted here recently that confirm that we're getting to the stage were VIs are sufficiently indistinguishable from real instruments, that we're almost across 'uncanny valley', in the same way that Google's recent demonstration of voice reproduction was indistinguishable from the real thing too. Sure, there will be no replacement for listening to real players live (I can't see concert halls being packed out to listen to VI mockups!), but when it comes to recordings, the vast majority of listeners (I include myself) will be thoroughly convinced by these mock ups.



There are couple of great guys here on Vi which have a lot of talent with mockups, like NoamL, Grim Universe, Guy Bacos, Benny Oschmann, also others which are not here, but just to mention these guys.
Start with something which is not that intense fast and something which has not that dense arrangement. Maybe "In the Hall of the Mountain King". Apart from the finale which goes fast with all the string runs the piece is definitely a bit easier to do I would say so.



Parsifal666 said:


> Great listen! Sounds like a couple of the levels could be tamed.
> 
> The largeness of this reminds me of one of my favorite recordings of Mozart's music: the Beethoven-sized versions of the last three symphonies, conducted by the venerable Herbert Von Karajan (the last movement of the Jupiter on that recording...you've got to hear it to believe it). You took what I believe would be considered a chamber piece and blew it up in a very cool and different way imo.



Yes, beethoven sized H. Karajan was my approach here..



Ben E said:


> I don't know what to say, man. If I hadn't known in advance that this was a mockup I'm pretty sure that it would never have crossed my mind that it was. In fact the woodwinds do a couple things that I'd probably have found myself thinking something like, "Hmm. I wonder if midi could do that." Maybe it's a combination of the room, the mix and the performance. Whatever it is, this is the kind of "recording" I like to play to people who think that midi music still sounds obviously fake. Incidentally, I played the "real or fake" test of @DarkestShadow for half a dozen music supervisors here in Hollywood who believe they can tell the difference, and none of them scored any better than a coin toss would have. I think this piece would do the trick too.



Thanks a lot Ben. I am trying my best with that illusion. Lets see how far I get with the final version..fingers crossed..


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## Saxer (May 17, 2018)

Great stuff... very lively and expressive!


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## NoamL (May 18, 2018)

Amazing. The spatialization could be improved a bit more (the 2nd version definitely is an improvement!). But the sforzandos of the strings and winds (did you use the portatos for Berlin Winds at 0:08, 0:20?) they are just terrific.

2nd listen: to increase the spatialization, I think maybe move the winds back a bit to sit nearer to where the horns are? (especially the flutes) Also at 1:27 the violins "A" doesn't sound connected to the rest of the phrase, and their sixteenths at 1:30 are too fast (they're not grace notes right?). Also at 0:27 those spiccatos should be more like short staccatos... Really nitpicking here...  man, the woodwinds just sound fantastic... you are gonna make me buy Berlin Woodwinds Alexander!!!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 18, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Amazing. The spatialization could be improved a bit more (the 2nd version definitely is an improvement!). But the sforzandos of the strings and winds (did you use the portatos for Berlin Winds at 0:08, 0:20?) they are just terrific.
> 
> 2nd listen: to increase the spatialization, I think maybe move the winds back a bit to sit nearer to where the horns are? (especially the flutes) Also at 1:27 the violins "A" doesn't sound connected to the rest of the phrase, and their sixteenths at 1:30 are too fast (they're not grace notes right?). Also at 0:27 those spiccatos should be more like short staccatos... Really nitpicking here...  man, the woodwinds just sound fantastic... you are gonna make me buy Berlin Woodwinds Alexander!!!



Hej Noam!

Thanks a lot. I will try that out. Actually I am working right now on the piece. Winds are Berlin (revive + legacy). When you buy them: Please tell the OT Guys why! :D I used the legato patches actually. My tip: Mix both versions together, detune the lines to color timbre which betters also the blend. Also eq the shit out the instruments, which means..try to use a mix of closed and room mics, but reduce the oompf and unnatural build up frequencies which occurs when stacking. Another trick is make "zig / zag" curves with cc1 to intensify vibrato. There is going a lot of stuff there in programming actually.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 18, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Great stuff... very lively and expressive!


Thanks Torsten. Glad your enjoyed!


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## ghandizilla (May 18, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Another trick is make "zig / zag" curves with cc1 to intensify vibrato. There is going a lot of stuff there in programming actually.



Very interesting!

I knew about the "detuned layering" thing which overally gives a bit more presence. I have an idea about where you EQ to prevent build up, but would be very curious to see how you manage these zig-zags so it doesn't give a "bumpy" feeling.


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## Erik (May 18, 2018)

Hi Alexander,

Thanks for sharing your mockup of this famous piece and my compliments for the result!

By accident, I had a version almost ready of this work on my HD. So please allow me to upload it here. I started the mockup to test VSL Synchron Strings, mainly because the classical style of the Nozze should fit the this VSL library very well I hoped. While working on this I decided to have the full orchestra version after all. All instruments are VSL based, except for the timpani. I used Elite Orchestral Percussion, that has such nice wood hits in their timpani offered, as I understood, this was quite common in Mozart's days.

Anyway, what a masterpiece of music this is, I tried to follow all indicated articultions in the score as much as possible. It was a challenge to have everything as I wanted: presto legato, up down bows, maintaining clarity a.o..

So here we go, a different version in many aspects: interpretation, verb settings etc.. I hope you all enjoy also this one, your feedback is more than welcome...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mozart_lndf-mp3.13461/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/mozart_lndf-mp3.13461/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 18, 2018)

Erik said:


> Hi Alexander,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your mockup of this famous piece and my compliments for the result!
> 
> ...



Hej Erik, Cool. Let me listen on my monitors then and I will make a couple of notes to give you some feedback. Thank you in advance for sharing. Looking forward to your version!

@NoamL I loaded up an update and I putted the winds, especially the flutes more back. You were completely right with that!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 18, 2018)

Erik said:


> Hi Alexander,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your mockup of this famous piece and my compliments for the result!
> 
> ...




OH Erik. I listened a couple of times to your version. Before I do write an essay I would like to ask: What was or is your goal with that mockup? Was it for personal studies (like harmony, form, melody, orchestration) or maybe just testing synchron strings out of the box or are you aiming more *to make a realistic performance*? <--- If this is the case I have a couple of more notes..and so I ask.

First thing just in general: You should not only rely on markings and illustrations in the score. _You can and should use the score for reference_ which is always a good thing to do, but _you should use a live recording for reference too_! Did you do that? From your comment I would say not really, right?
Anyways let me know if want an indepth feedback which is aimed more to the real thing what I was talking about. Because there I have a lot more to say..Thank you


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## Erik (May 18, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> OH Erik. I listened a couple of times to your version. Before I do write an essay I would like to ask: What was or is your goal with that mockup? Was it for personal studies (like harmony, form, melody, orchestration) or maybe just testing synchron strings out of the box or are you aiming more *to make a realistic performance*? <--- If this is the case I have a couple of more notes..and so I ask.
> 
> First thing just in general: You should not only rely on markings and illustrations in the score. _You can and should use the score for reference_ which is always a good thing to do, but _you should use a live recording for reference too_! Did you do that? From your comment I would say not really, right?
> Anyways let me know if want an indepth feedback which is aimed more to the real thing what I was talking about. Because there I have a lot more to say..Thank you



Hi Alexander,
I made this mockup for I think many of the reasons you were talking about. Not one very specific one, except maybe the outcome of the SyS. I listened to a few recordings, mainly with the old instruments (Marcon a.o.), not so much with the bigger orchestra's.
I didn't use on of them as reference track btw.
As mentioned your feedback is welcome!


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 18, 2018)

Ben E said:


> Incidentally, I played the "real or fake" test of @DarkestShadow for half a dozen music supervisors here in Hollywood who believe they can tell the difference, and none of them scored any better than a coin toss would have. I think this piece would do the trick too.


I think that aswell. 
And really fun to hear that I did so well with this compilation!  
It's sure good for ones own mockups to know what sounds convincing and what not.


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## Divico (May 18, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Thanks! Well I didn´t felt to much verb, but according to very dry recordings it has a bit more reverb. My setting is influenced by big orchestra recordings in a hall.


Yeah I guess its a matter of taste . Like normally I like a big sound but here for me it could be a little bit dryer


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## midi-et-quart (May 18, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Just mock up that first agile run in the beginning. It teaches you a cool orchestrational preset.



Hey Alexander, amazing mock-up and a really outstanding intro. Could you please tell us what patch you used to get this blurry but still (for me) natural sounding run at the beginning? 

I hope it's not a specific kind of run library, as they aren't really playable, but given the natural result it wouldn't surprise me that much


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 18, 2018)

midi-et-quart said:


> Hey Alexander, amazing mock-up and a really outstanding intro. Could you please tell us what patch you used to get this blurry but still (for me) natural sounding run at the beginning?
> 
> I hope it's not a specific kind of run library, as they aren't really playable, but given the natural result it wouldn't surprise me that much



No run library.
I used for Cellos / DB MA 3 (8va Sus Rep), for Violas Hollywood Strings (runs), for Violins a mix of Chamber Strings (Violin agile runs), Short Spics from Berlin, Bassoon from Berlin (Shorts and legatos layered) + free solo violin from Performance Samples. Rest is programming and the way how I changed the patches from the factory presets. Also I equed the instruments (sometimes a lot)


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 18, 2018)

Erik said:


> Hi Alexander,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your mockup of this famous piece and my compliments for the result!
> 
> ...



Ok, I will not comment the whole track (the post would be like 5 pages long), but the a part of the track and the comments I will do here but will apply to your whole track because they are general things I will mention.

1. Your intro Run:

1. It misses definition and slur. By definition I mean you still need to hear those accented shorter notes by slur I mean you need to hear that the transitions start to sound slight of out tune and that they have this kind of fuzz. How to achieve that? Use not that legato patches alone. Use Spiccato articulations playing at quite dynamics, use slurred articulations on the Vloas more prominently because the Vloas is the glue from the CB / DB to the Bassoon. Where is your bassson? The bassoon is here important for the color imprint of that run. Listen to your run and then to my run. In my run you can clearly make out the bassoon as the coloring counterpart instrument. Those things which I mentioned for the strings here applies also for the bassoon. Your whole run doesn´t work at all because it is to clean, too even and it misses the single note punctuations which comes from the rebowing from the strings (retonging from the winds).

2. Next part

Your winds pop in and they don´t sing. They are flat dead there. Put more love into the CC1 and really think of like a woman you adore and that you want to flirt with her using those winds. They need a musical swell and more vibrato and a natural short descrescendo. Another point: Your passing notes are almost inaudible but they are crucial for the melodic frame there. (7 seconds). These are details of course but they are important in such piece. Use for that situations shorter articulations like a short portato or a normal short aritculation and layer them there. Those passing notes need definition. Also the orchestration and timbre there is wrong. First time Focus is Oboes, second time Flutes stacked with Clarinettes. Your second time is still Oboe focus which is not authentic.


3. Your loud tutti String part

Your Violins doing the divisi leading line are too long, they don´t swell, they have no accent, they just are dead flat out straight without a decrescendo, they have no audible gaps.So, to better them: Use an accented molto vibrato patch OR if you not able. Take your most expressivo Violin patch available layer a short articulation over it to pronounce the note. Ride a controller curve with a short swell to maximum with a followed drescendo. Make short pauses. Shorten release times because otherwise the soup with blur too much.
Your second part of the theme needs much shorter notes, some kind spiccatissimo articulations with shorten release times. Otherwise like in your example you have "mush" again.
Your timpani is total unmusical and too loud, it is like the guy at the timpani thinks: You know what I have my own concert here. The timings of the timpani ARE NOT on the grid they need to accent the musical violin crescendo, they need to emphasize that. Your timpani needs to be quiter in timbre and timed a bit later.

Ok, apply those things to your other parts I am pretty sure you can improve those things in your mockup.  And don´t get me wrong: I appreciate that you posted your mockup here and I encourage others to do so as well. You can only learn when sharing your experience. 

One last general idea or tip: Work with your ears and not with what the developer tells you to do. So when you feel that the legato or whatever patch doesn´t work good, shit on that and take another patch. _In the end it doesn´t matter what you use_,* it only matters that it sounds good in the end.*


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## lux (May 19, 2018)

Very nice Mockup Alexander, I for one prefer version A as it tames a bit some loud dynamics. I'm sure you already tried it but I would consider just reducing reverb decay of version A while keeping the same reverb mix asset. I could be wrong but perhaps reducing the tail of the late reverb could give a bit of less hangar like effect to the mix.

a cool work!
Luca


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## Mattia Chiappa (May 19, 2018)

Wow!!! I'm speechless this truly sounds incredible. Sure there a great level of definition in the mockup but what amazes me the most is the expression you were able to render. Remarkable job!


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## Erik (May 19, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok, I will not comment the whole track (the post would be like 5 pages long), but the a part of the track and the comments I will do here but will apply to your whole track because they are general things I will mention.
> 
> 1. Your intro Run:
> 
> ...



Thank you Alexander for your detailled input, to keep it short: I need to come up with something better apparently! I'll fire the timpani player today btw, who the hell he think he is. 
I'll let you know when a next version is presentable. Thanks again, enough material to reconsider.

I can't find the woodwinds mistake btw: do you mean m.8-m10? In all scores on ISMLP there is twice the oboe stacked with the horns. Maybe you're referring to another spot?

btw: I wasn't able to upload this track into Soundcloud becaused it matched with a copyrighted existing performance that I even wasn't aware of: "Marriage of Figaro, KV 492" by Anton Nanut. I found this later on Spotify.


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## Paul T McGraw (May 19, 2018)

@AlexanderSchiborr you always amaze me! Love this! Personally I find the version B with less room sound more attractive.


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## Paul T McGraw (May 19, 2018)

Erik said:


> Hi Alexander,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your mockup of this famous piece and my compliments for the result!
> 
> ...



Wow, you did a superb job with this. And it is extremely interesting to compare with Alexander's version. You have a very few rough spots, as does Alexander, but I prefer the VSL sound for Mozart. I'm glad you posted this.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 19, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Wow, you did a superb job with this. And it is extremely interesting to compare with Alexander's version. You have a very few rough spots, as does Alexander, but I prefer the VSL sound for Mozart. I'm glad you posted this.



Paul, I appreciate your positive feedback. But..actually I have humbly to disagree. The VSL version is very different from what I have done here. And I don´t want to be rude to the poster, but it is in my opinion very ovbious. Regardless why that is (programming / samples) is another different subject which I tried to explain to Erik. I hope that this ok to say, but please go and listen to beethoven sized live performances by karajan, Muti etc.


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## Paul T McGraw (May 19, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Paul, I appreciate your positive feedback. But..actually I have humbly to disagree. The VSL version is a farcry from what I have done here. And I don´t want to be rude to the poster, but it is in my opinion very ovbious. Regardless why that is (programming / samples). I hope that this ok to say, but please go and listen to beethoven sized live performances by karajan, Muti etc.



I often wonder why those of us who truly love music sometimes hear things a bit differently from each other. Perhpas it is because I have old ears. Please do not take my preference for VSL samples in this case as a criticism of your work Alexander. Your work is marvelous!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 19, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I often wonder why those of us who truly love music sometimes hear things a bit differently from each other. Perhpas it is because I have old ears. Please do not take my preference for VSL samples in this case as a criticism of your work Alexander. Your work is marvelous!


No I don´t know, maybe you are right and I am wrong. But would it be possible to get something out of VSL like that? With one library? You need imo a lot more libraries to pull of that sound. That is why I am a bit curious at that point. If somebody has VSL and can do that, please let me know.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 19, 2018)

Erik said:


> Thank you Alexander for your detailled input, to keep it short: I need to come up with something better apparently! I'll fire the timpani player today btw, who the hell he think he is.
> I'll let you know when a next version is presentable. Thanks again, enough material to reconsider.
> 
> I can't find the woodwinds mistake btw: do you mean m.8-m10? In all scores on ISMLP there is twice the oboe stacked with the horns. Maybe you're referring to another spot?
> ...



Hi Erik,
Yes, the Oboes are still there. But the Flutes coming in and in your version they are almost eaten up by the Oboes. That´s in my opinon not very musical and the intention is, that they interact, so that when the Flutes come, the focus "moves" from Oboes to "Flutes" and this is regarding interpretation important and more interesting because you have a color change. It is maybe a nitpicking thing. I am very much into all this details and so I just mentioned that.


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## Erik (May 19, 2018)

OK, I understand!


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## fixxer49 (May 19, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I think most of you know that astonishing work of Mozart. Here is my attempt mocking up that piece with samples.
> 
> ...



amazing work! (your "Setting B" is my fav, btw)


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 19, 2018)

Erik said:


> OK, I understand!



Will you work more on your rendition? Looking forward.


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## Erik (May 19, 2018)

Yes, I'll do


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## Guy Bacos (May 20, 2018)

I think this is your best classical mockup. You've done several but this one stands out among them all mainly because it feels lighter probably due to the choice of articulations and that's what it's all about.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 24, 2018)

I am finally through the whole piece. Took me 3 weeks (almost everyday work, besides sunday) and 20 workflow versions up to this:



Replaced the 1st version also with that one..


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## rlundv (May 24, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I am finally through the whole piece. Took me 3 weeks (almost everyday work, besides sunday) and 20 workflow versions up to this:



Amazing. Great inspiration from this!!


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## N.Caffrey (May 24, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I am finally through the whole piece. Took me 3 weeks (almost everyday work, besides sunday) and 20 workflow versions up to this:



so good! One of the best mockups I've heard


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## Rob (May 24, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I am finally through the whole piece. Took me 3 weeks (almost everyday work, besides sunday) and 20 workflow versions up to this:



great job, only thing that sticks out a bit to me is the sudden ff in the violins, sound slightly pungent and in your face... and maybe a tad too much reverberation. But I'm nitpicking...


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## Loïc D (May 24, 2018)

Excellent work ! I'm truly speechless.
I wonder how you managed to render the tremolo violins so well in the last part. Is it OT Violins time machine patch ?

Thinking back 10 years ago how it was impossible to render such realistic mockups, I think we live in a golden age of sampling right now...


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 24, 2018)

Rob said:


> great job, only thing that sticks out a bit to me is the sudden ff in the violins, sound slightly pungent and in your face... and maybe a tad too much reverberation. But I'm nitpicking...



Rob, thank you for the observation. This little feedbacks are really great. Will check that later! Thank you 



LowweeK said:


> Excellent work ! I'm truly speechless.
> I wonder how you managed to render the tremolo violins so well in the last part. Is it OT Violins time machine patch ?
> 
> Thinking back 10 years ago how it was impossible to render such realistic mockups, I think we live in a golden age of sampling right now...



Please name the exact spot because there is in this piece no generalisation routine..unfortunately..everything is total custom, so I often changed routines repeadily, sometimes within a few seconds..I used Tm Patches too..jsut to say.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 24, 2018)

Rob said:


> great job, only thing that sticks out a bit to me is the sudden ff in the violins, sound slightly pungent and in your face... and maybe a tad too much reverberation. But I'm nitpicking...



So, I replaced the version with a bit less reverb and I tamed some stuff on the violins slightly and it has a bit more breath and air overall. It is nitpicky different...but there is a difference..:D


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## Erik (May 30, 2018)

Hi Alexander,

as promised a new version. Replaced almost all VSL sections, except brass. I hope you'll like this one better!

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mozart_lndf_-2-mp3.13649/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 30, 2018)

Erik said:


> Hi Alexander,
> 
> as promised a new version. Replaced almost all VSL sections, except brass. I hope you'll like this one better!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mozart_lndf_-2-mp3.13649/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Thank you for sharing your update, Erik. I will comment the following: Unfortunately there is still a lot to do in my opinion.I could copy paste my first statement from 2 pages before just here to let you know that either you didn´t apply my suggestions for that run or you did, but you managed not to get it right. Therefore I say it again: That run you did there lacks of dynamics, definition and slurred passing notes in the strings. Again: This run is pretty difficult to get it right. Therefore I give you a more insight into how I did it. you don´t need to follow that, but I want to help and show my procedure here:

*HOW TO CREATE A RUN like in That FIGARO Track*


I uploaded this here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ff2sdiveb1jgqk1/How to create a run like Mozarts Figaro Intro!.mp3?dl=0

1. Cellos and Doublebass playing in octaves the run. If you have a Cello / DB recorded patch in octaves available, use that because the blend of both instruments and weight in the room is hard to get right with single patches (though possible) but doesn´t sound that good. USE Velocities and / or the modwheel to inject a bit life and dynamics into the run. Don´t use a Legato Patch for that, use a short accented marcato or something with a scripted legato. Or even A short articulation patch with scripted legato. 
2. Next Violins: Layer slurred run patches with a solo Violin, see this example. make them a bit uneven, RIDE Both single patches with different dynamics, don´t copy paste.
3. Layer annother additional Violin patch with more accents into it. This here is a mix of Shorts layered on top of legato!
4. The Violas are the GLUE from Cellos to Violins. Let them make the Slurred prominent Bee sound in the mid register. Use slurred run patches or loose spiccatos or something that sound close to that.
5. Yeah, that sounds shit alone but makes sense. Bassoon Shorts..but listen to No. 6
6. Mushy Legato Bassoon
7. Defined Legato Basson
8. ALL TOGETHER, I mean the Bassoons!
9. LEVEL RIGHT!! Bassoons + CELLOS / DB. Hear the blend? Thats the correct blend in dynamics,basoons are there, but not too loud.
10. Level Right!! Bassoon according to Violins / Vloas
11. All together.

I don´t want to disencourage you, but this is the process which is imo mandatory to pull of that run. You see there is a lot going on and I hope that helps you. Did you use this time a live reference for your update? YOU NEED TO PUT MUCH MORE WORK INTO THAT...TIME..WORK..*Layering*, USING DYNAMICS, *listening to references...*


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## Erik (May 31, 2018)

Thanks again for your input here. I have listened with great interest. Did you use a midi from a notation program or did you play in all parts manually btw?

I'll need to expand my template anyway apparently...I'll keep you informed.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 31, 2018)

Erik said:


> Thanks again for your input here. I have listened with great interest. Did you use a midi from a notation program or did you play in all parts manually btw?
> 
> I'll need to expand my template anyway apparently...I'll keep you informed.


No, performed everything and programmed the rest. I don´t use notation, never used it and I will not use notation software for that kind of _performance related mockups.._ (nothing against notation programmes). Do you used a notation programming to let speak the performance? That won´t bring you realism..forget about that..you have to perform and programm each line carefully.


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## Jos Wylin (May 31, 2018)

A fantastic recording and interpretation. Although I'm not a fan of the Von Karajan-like orchestral sizes for classical music and baroque. Also the high speed is to my taste a little over the edge, but that discussion turns up from time to time and today it's again a hot topic. But as said, that's merely a matter of taste and doesn't say anything about the very good quality of the piece. I prefer the first version.
Jos


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## Jos Wylin (Nov 8, 2019)

Quite an achievement and very realistic. I like the recording with less roomsound a lot better. In my opinion the speed is a bit exaggerated, but I do realize that nowadays many recordings perform at that pace... After all, it's your choice and preference that matters!

Well done,
Jos


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