# An explanation and thanks to all that participated



## Dear Villain

I apologize for the click-baity title, but with the piece for string quartet I'm presenting here, I'm hoping to receive some seriously mean, harsh criticism. I want you to tear it to shreds. Have at it, and spare no feelings.

If you have something positive to say about the piece, I don't want to hear it. I want my spirit broken and my desire to compose crushed. In other words, I want you to say the kind of things that could lead a person to never want to write music again. Tell me how crappy the music is, or how pathetic the midi performance is. Tell me how you couldn't get past 30 seconds without being bored to tears. Lay in to me with the worst, and don't sugar coat it at all. Don't be politically correct. If you can't be exclusively "mean", simply don't reply to the thread. But if you can unleash a flurry of critical insight upon me, I would be honoured to read it. Over the years, there are a number of VI members whose gift of tearing a new one has been on display for all to enjoy. Let's bring those folks out for this one, shall we?




Thanks if you can help me with this,
Dave


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## ka00

This reads like a classified ad in the back pages of an alternative weekly newspaper.


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## Zero&One

I really liked the parts from 7:25 onwards.


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## Dear Villain

Zero&One said:


> I really liked the parts from 7:25 onwards.



Love it! Thank you


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## I like music

I liked it when the high-pitched noises stopped.

Not the kind of thing I listen to day in day out but it got stronger and stronger as I listened. Nice use of the instruments' dynamic range. It didn't wander off to completely random places which I think I sometimes hear quartet attempts (again, no expert). Actually, as I type this I realise that at approx 3 minute mark it became very enjoyable. Nice subtleties in the next minute or so.


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## Michel Simons

Do we have to listen first?


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## LamaRose

Hate to tell you, but it doesn't suck... a lot to like actually. The instruments have a good tone and blend well together... the space is a bit large for my tastes. The piece itself is not exactly memorable, but it has its moments. Maybe shoot for a short adagio piece and focus on a more harmonic content.


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## Noeticus

Okay..... It's far too repetitious.


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## Dear Villain

Thank you all for the replies. This thread is a personal growth experiment, and to be honest, I really am only looking for harsh, mean criticism. It can be pedagogic or it can simply be based on your desire to demoralize a fellow human being with no substance behind the criticism. Whichever it is, I hope that any further responses will simply be negative. Seriously.


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## YaniDee

It sounds like about 16 different musicians playing parts at different areas of a large stage. Or are they just walking around ? Besides that? good to listen to while washing dishes ..


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Dear Villain said:


> Thank you all for the replies. This thread is a personal growth experiment, and to be honest, I really am only looking for harsh, mean criticism. It can be pedagogic or it can simply be based on your desire to demoralize a fellow human being with no substance behind the criticism. Whichever it is, I hope that any further responses will simply be negative. Seriously.



Why?


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## Dear Villain

YaniDee said:


> It sounds like about 16 different musicians playing parts at different areas of a large stage. Or are they just walking around ? Besides that? good to listen to while washing dishes ..



Thanks, YaniDee. I agree, as dishwashing music, it might be passable.


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## dzilizzi

It needs some drums. And trumpets/horns when the phoenix actually starts to rise. I mean, what kind of quartet is it without at least a sax? And a honky tonk piano?


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## MOMA

OK:

YOU´RE FIRED. (Along with that dude inte white house...)


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## Polkasound

I went down to the basement to tighten the loose belt on the clothes dryer. That's when I realized I must have clicked the play button on your track by mistake.

But seriously, I thought it was well done. It's probably not the kind of music you'd market to people with ADD, but one can appreciate the musicality and creativity involved.


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## CT

Hi Mr. Villain. I have nothing bad to say about this as a composition, and I didn't expect to, as I've never found anything of yours lacking in that department, however much it may not be to the typical tastes on VI-Control.

Here is my harsh criticism, then: you, like every other highly talented composer that has locked themselves into the world of VSL, are doing your music an immense disservice. Whatever misgivings a listener may have about a piece's style are surely eclipsed or even magnified by the immediate gut reaction which the largely lifeless, sterilized, robotic sound of these tools must with some appreciable degree of regularity provoke. I understand the difficulty of your position, since it's not as if there are many obvious alternatives that don't come with their own (often very frustrating!) compromises, but I'm very much over the particular compromises that using VSL virtual instruments demands of both composer and listener.

I hope this doesn't lead to another endless debate on this subject. We're all aware of "taste," and there are any number of platitudes to choose from on the subject to lay to rest such disagreements before they begin... that's where those discussions always end up, anyway, so let's just presume an "agree to disagree" environment. But this is my taste. I trust my ears and my brain. This stuff sounds like shit and it boggles my mind that people think otherwise.


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## Dear Villain

It may really be hard to believe, but I promise: I am looking for the kind of mean-spirited comments that have demoralized countless others that have come looking for feedback on this forum. I am not fishing for compliments, so please, either we let the thread die, or make me want to quit music with your hate.


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## Dear Villain

Mike T said:


> Hi Mr. Villain. I have nothing bad to say about this as a composition, and I didn't expect to, as I've never found anything of yours lacking in that department, however much it may not be to the typical tastes on VI-Control.
> 
> Here is my harsh criticism, then: you, like every other highly talented composer that has locked themselves into the world of VSL, are doing your music an immense disservice. Whatever misgivings a listener may have about a piece's style are surely eclipsed or even magnified by the immediate gut reaction which the largely lifeless, sterilized, robotic sound of these tools must with some appreciable degree of regularity provoke. I understand the difficulty of your position, since it's not as if there are many obvious alternatives that don't come with their own (often very frustrating!) compromises, but I'm very much over the particular compromises that using VSL virtual instruments demands of both composer and listener.
> 
> I hope this doesn't lead to another endless debate on this subject. We're all aware of "taste," and there are any number of platitudes to choose from on the subject to lay to rest such disagreements before they begin... that's where those discussions always end up, anyway, so let's just presume an "agree to disagree" environment. But this is my taste. I trust my ears and my brain. This stuff sounds like shit and it boggles my mind that people think otherwise.



Thank you, Mike T! Now we're in business  I will take these comments to heart and evaluate my future with VSL/music in general going forward.

Cheers!
Dave


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## thesteelydane

Your writing is good, good counterpoint, giving each musician something interesting to play - way ahead of so much other stuff I hear. It's a bit repetitive, but I hear your intentions of motivic development, so you're on the right track. Study Bach, be humbled, then destroyed like we all have been when we first truly recognised Bach's genius and how we will never ever get even close, then put yourself back together and keep writing, like every composer since Bach has done.

The mockup, however, is shit. No one would ever mistake it for a real string quartet.

Don't worry though, your compositional chops matter much, much more than your mockup skills, and you're better than most.


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## CT

Dear Villain said:


> I will take these comments to heart and evaluate my future with VSL/music in general going forward.



Well, I'm not sure that you need to evaluate your future with music in general, unless you feel that it is truly impossible to bring to life the music you wish to write with the tools currently available, and that without that, it's a pointless venture (it isn't).

Could be worth a look at some other VI options though.

Anyway, if this thread fails to deliver, I might be able to point you in the right direction if you're looking for, uh, professional degradation.


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## tf-drone

Hi,

the sound is ugly: the reverb needs more low pass filter, it is too harsh, like played in an empty swimming-pool.

The music is neither cinematic (whatever that means) nor minimal, classical (romantic style), or pop. It meanders from nowhere to elsewhere, without any detectable development.


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## Dear Villain

thesteelydane said:


> Your writing is good, good counterpoint, giving each musician something interesting to play - way ahead of so much other stuff I hear. It's a bit repetitive, but I hear your intentions of motivic development, so you're on the right track. Study Bach, be humbled, then destroyed like we all have been when we first truly recognised Bach's genius and how we will never ever get even close, then put yourself back together and keep writing, like every composer since Bach has done.
> 
> The mockup, however, is shit. No one would ever mistake it for a real string quartet.
> 
> Don't worry though, your compositional chops matter much, much more than your mockup skills, and you're better than most.



Hi the steelydane.

Appreciate your comments. Already studied Bach for much of my life (have a Masters degree in music from the University of Toronto). Already humbled by him, as we all should be. Burden of the past is very real when it comes to composers 

The shit mockup comment is much appreciated, thank you!


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## MOMA

Musical masochists are not that common, not this openly anyway. There was a couple of cases in Tonbridge in the south of England in 1893 and in Freiburg in Germany in 1909. Since then the medical science has been monitoring the situation closely and been fairly successful keeping it down. Then one can wonder who divulge in endless templates of libraries that never seem to deliver your inner fantasies.


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## Dear Villain

tf-drone said:


> Hi,
> 
> the sound is ugly: the reverb needs more low pass filter, it is too harsh, like played in an empty swimming-pool.
> 
> The music is neither cinematic (whatever that means) nor minimal, classical (romantic style), or pop. It meanders from nowhere to elsewhere, without any detectable development.



I thank you tf-drone for sharing your thoughts. It is always a challenge finding a way to describe music and/or categorize it. Your quote would make a great one-liner for the CD liner notes though


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## Ivan M.

I like the music ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Trash Panda

Hey Dear Villain, the editing floor of the Knives Out soundtrack called and wants its scraps back.

I've had bowel movements after eating ghost peppers that were more pleasant than listening to this.

If you call this music, I can't wait to share my latest piece that is a fusion of dissonant howler monkeys fighting combined with sampled farts.

Am I doing it right?


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## David Kudell

Dear Villain said:


> I really am only looking for harsh, mean criticism.


Make an 8bit version.


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## Dear Villain

Only if you mean it, The Serinator


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## Alex Niedt

The strings/samples are thoroughly unconvincing. Aside from that, nothing immediately hooks me in or gives me a great idea of where the piece is going, so seeing that 7-minute running time when I already felt it was meandering less than a minute in was a big "nope" for me.


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## Dear Villain

Alex Niedt said:


> The strings/samples are thoroughly unconvincing. Aside from that, nothing immediately hooks me in or gives me a great idea of where the piece is going, so seeing that 7-minute running time when I already felt it was meandering less than a minute in was a big "nope" for me.



You're not missing much, and with the 7 minutes you saved, you can make a great cup of pour-over!

Cheers,
Dave


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## Trash Panda

Dear Villain said:


> Only if you mean it, The Serinator


On a more serious note, I had a hard time listening the whole way through because if there was a central or evolving motif, I was not able to hear it.


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## Zero&One

Ok, I'll do it... I'll summon the vi-c demon... 

@re-peat


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## Dear Villain

The Serinator said:


> On a more serious note, I had a hard time listening the whole way through because if there was a central or evolving motif, I was not able to hear it.



Hi The Serinator,

This is a very valid point. Even if I would argue there was a central motif, it wouldn't matter if the listener couldn't identify it, because the moment I have to justify/explain my music, I've failed as a composer. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Cheers!
Dave


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## Dear Villain

Zero&One said:


> Ok, I'll do it... I'll summon the vi-c demon...
> 
> @re-peat



I'd be honoured if he ripped me to shreds...some of his erudite critiques remind me of an even more entertaining Frasier episode; specifically those episodes where Frasier is humbled by a quick-witted adversary 

Dave


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## CT




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## Terry93D

Neither great nor awful, this empty husk where once the potentiality for emotion or expressivity may have glimmered before the composer attempted to remove it from his brain and put it into aural form suffers from that most tragic of problems in that it is not bad enough to offend nor good enough to inspire, settling instead for the sort of mediocrity where one only can damn it with faint damnation, one can observe of it only its adequacy, one can say of it only that it is inoffensive to the point of offensiveness; indeed, the able ability with which this composer achieves bare competence is a worthy lesson to us all that workmanship is insufficient without craft and without the spark of feeling in our souls. Gaze into this composer's soul, and you will only stare into an abyss that hasn't the decency to stare back.

...

That mean-spirited enough? 

More seriously: This is a lovely composition, though I wasn't too impressed until :45 when we started getting into some more interesting material then that descending figure. The only thing mediocre about this is the samples, and even with that it sounds to me that you've put a decent amount of effort into programming it. I quite like it, honestly, and I wonder what it would sound like with better solo strings -- or even performed by a live quartet.


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## Zero&One

Dear Villain said:


> I'd be honoured if he ripped me to shreds...some of his erudite critiques remind me of an even more entertaining Frasier episode; specifically those episodes where Frasier is humbled by a quick-witted adversary
> 
> Dave



I just bounced this down quickly. Makes that paragraph come to life now.


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## Dear Villain

Terry93D said:


> Neither great nor awful, this empty husk where once the potentiality for emotion or expressivity may have glimmered before the composer attempted to remove it from his brain and put it into aural form suffers from that most tragic of problems in that it is not bad enough to offend nor good enough to inspire, settling instead for the sort of mediocrity where one only can damn it with faint damnation, one can observe of it only its adequacy, one can say of it only that it is inoffensive to the point of offensiveness; indeed, the able ability with which this composer achieves bare competence is a worthy lesson to us all that workmanship is insufficient without craft and without the spark of feeling in our souls. Gaze into this composer's soul, and you will only stare into an abyss that hasn't the decency to stare back.
> 
> ...
> 
> That mean-spirited enough?
> 
> More seriously: This is a lovely composition, though I wasn't too impressed until :45 when we started getting into some more interesting material then that descending figure. The only thing mediocre about this is the samples, and even with that it sounds to me that you've put a decent amount of effort into programming it. I quite like it, honestly, and I wonder what it would sound like with better solo strings -- or even performed by a live quartet.



First paragraph: You have a gift, my friend. You can cut to the heart of a man's soul and make him contemplate dark things.

Second paragraph: You're just being polite, now. I will admit to putting a significant amount of effort in to my midi performances, but try though I might, I rarely succeed in pleasing people with them...perhaps a little because of the samples, and a lot because of me.

Cheers!
Dave


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## sinkd

Dear Villain said:


> I apologize for the click-baity title, but with the piece for string quartet I'm presenting here, I'm hoping to receive some seriously mean, harsh criticism. I want you to tear it to shreds. Have at it, and spare no feelings.
> 
> If you have something positive to say about the piece, I don't want to hear it. I want my spirit broken and my desire to compose crushed. In other words, I want you to say the kind of things that could lead a person to never want to write music again. Tell me how crappy the music is, or how pathetic the midi performance is. Tell me how you couldn't get past 30 seconds without being bored to tears. Lay in to me with the worst, and don't sugar coat it at all. Don't be politically correct. If you can't be exclusively "mean", simply don't reply to the thread. But if you can unleash a flurry of critical insight upon me, I would be honoured to read it. Over the years, there are a number of VI members whose gift of tearing a new one has been on display for all to enjoy. Let's bring those folks out for this one, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks if you can help me with this,
> Dave



I think the biggest problems with this quartet are formal. It doesn't begin--it just starts, and I have no idea of the predicted scope of it from the opening. Really excellent pieces for chamber groups make a bargain with the listener from the outset: "Sit tight, this is going to be worth it." I'm not fully convinced that the material has enough self identity to really be developed--just repeated? Also, many of the transitions and texture exchanges sound like apologetic retreats: "Sorry about that last bit, here's something sweeter for you." You bail on the polyphony/fugato too soon most of the time, but the linear countermelody to the 6/8 "bouncy" motif is pretty nondescript anyway. Last I will ask, what makes this a piece that could only be played by strings? Almost nothing, really. Are there even any double stops? You need to rip one now and again, my friend. Twist the tonality so that returns to diatonicism are more fulfilling. Scrape some keys against each other and see of the paint comes off--or better yet, melts! Open up the counterpoint so that entrances can be discerned and deliberated before another line starts. Make it longer in places and shorter in others.

All that said, it's a hell of a lot better than anything I've written lately.


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## Dear Villain

sinkd said:


> I think the biggest problems with this quartet are formal. It doesn't begin--it just starts, and I have no idea of the predicted scope of it from the opening. Really excellent pieces for chamber groups make a bargain with the listener from the outset: "Sit tight, this is going to be worth it." I'm not fully convinced that the material has enough self identity to really be developed--just repeated? Also, many of the transitions and texture exchanges sound like apologetic retreats: "Sorry about that last bit, here's something sweeter for you." You bail on the polyphony/fugato too soon most of the time, but the linear countermelody to the 6/8 "bouncy" motif is pretty nondescript anyway. Last I will ask, what makes this a piece that could only be played by strings? Almost nothing, really. Are there even any double stops? You need to rip one now and again, my friend. Twist the tonality so that returns to diatonicism are more fulfilling. Scrape some keys against each other and see of the paint comes off--or better yet, melts! Open up the counterpoint so that entrances can be discerned and deliberated before another line starts. Make it longer in places and shorter in others.
> 
> All that said, it's a hell of a lot better than anything I've written lately.



You deserve your academic position, my friend! Many thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Crowe

For about the first 30 seconds I figured I'd found a motif but half a minute later the piece seemed to lose its own plot; from this point on the piece seems to meander (quickly) yet aimlessly. I cannot say how many movements this piece has, as after a minute I felt quite lost with no real idea of where we were going.

I'm sorry to say I did not finish the piece, I gave up at about 4:30. I identify this as the point at which I had lost hope it would resolve in something tangible, regardless its defined length of 7:24. I felt not tension, nothing to resolve, but a growing irritation with a piece that was randomly stretching itself out longer and longer just to screw with me.

The 'Hopping articulations' that seem to be meant to make up this piece's motifs are not a motif even if you'd like it to be. An articulation alone cannot establish a piece.

_Also Reverb weird.

Kra kra.

I hope this is what you wanted, it was rather hard for me to write <3._


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## Dear Villain

Shiirai said:


> For about the first 30 seconds I figured I'd found a motif but half a minute later the piece seemed to lose its own plot; from this point on the piece seems to meander (quickly) yet aimlessly. I cannot say how many movements this piece has, as after a minute I felt quite lost with no real idea of where we were going.
> 
> I'm sorry to say I did not finish the piece, I gave up at about 4:30. I identify this as the point at which I had lost hope it would resolve in something tangible, regardless its defined length of 7:24. I felt not tension, nothing to resolve, but a growing irritation with a piece that was randomly stretching itself out longer and longer just to screw with me.
> 
> The 'Hopping articulations' that seem to be meant to make up this piece's motifs are not a motif even if you'd like it to be. An articulation alone cannot establish a piece.
> 
> _Also Reverb weird.
> 
> Kra kra.
> 
> I hope this is what you wanted, it was rather hard for me to write <3._



Thank you, but I don't think it was that hard for you to write that 😉


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## Bman70

Mike T said:


> Hi Mr. Villain. I have nothing bad to say about this as a composition, and I didn't expect to, as I've never found anything of yours lacking in that department, however much it may not be to the typical tastes on VI-Control.
> 
> Here is my harsh criticism, then: you, like every other highly talented composer that has locked themselves into the world of VSL, are doing your music an immense disservice. Whatever misgivings a listener may have about a piece's style are surely eclipsed or even magnified by the immediate gut reaction which the largely lifeless, sterilized, robotic sound of these tools must with some appreciable degree of regularity provoke. I understand the difficulty of your position, since it's not as if there are many obvious alternatives that don't come with their own (often very frustrating!) compromises, but I'm very much over the particular compromises that using VSL virtual instruments demands of both composer and listener.
> 
> I hope this doesn't lead to another endless debate on this subject. We're all aware of "taste," and there are any number of platitudes to choose from on the subject to lay to rest such disagreements before they begin... that's where those discussions always end up, anyway, so let's just presume an "agree to disagree" environment. But this is my taste. I trust my ears and my brain. This stuff sounds like shit and it boggles my mind that people think otherwise.



I'm fairly new to sample libraries... by VSL do you mean virtual instruments in general, or just the Vienna Symphonic Library ones?


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## Crowe

Dear Villain said:


> Thank you, but I don't think it was that hard for you to write that 😉



Ah, but see Dear Villain, I am what happens when Villains come out of the other end of therapy.

It's quite difficult to act like an asshat when you have trained yourself not to be.


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## Dear Villain

Bman70 said:


> I'm fairly new to sample libraries... by VSL do you mean virtual instruments in general, or just the Vienna Symphonic Library ones?



Vienna Symphonic Library


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## CT

Yes. And I'd like to add that, perhaps unlike some others who at least on some level thoroughly enjoy crafting elegantly vicious barbs, it gives me no happiness to so vehemently reject this particular thing. If it's something I seem to dwell on as a pet peeve, it's merely because I am a deeply frustrated and disappointed former user who sees something that could be so much more than it is, the numerous virtues of which are marred by just a handful of sadly fundamental problems, problems which I'm not yet sure have been mitigated by more newly adopted methods.


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## Polkasound




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## Crowe

Could be whatever. I kinda get it, I might've considered doing something like this once or twice. Could be for reasons mentioned above, could be out of a dark sense of humor, could be just to see what results are there to be gotten, the list goes on.

I think that, if a request like this is made in earnest, one should either help and comply, or not participate. View it as an experiment. Make a new topic to praise the piece if you must, but at least try to not mess the experiment here.


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## gyprock

Dear Villain (what a stupid name),

Your'e a total loser and you should make your bed more often ... and please sell all those stupid musical gadgets you keep buying. When are you going to get a life and stop wasting your time on VI-Control.

Is that sufficiently harsh and mean spirited? If not, I apologize.


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## Dear Villain

ka00 said:


> Is the idea here that you want to receive the worst possible criticisms to see that it actually won’t kill you? That as harsh as it is, it can never change one note of the music you intended to make? Are you trying to build a coat of armour? A thicker skin? Just curious.



These are perfectly valid hypotheses, among other reasons, which I'd rather not discuss. One thing that I'm comfortable sharing, is that this thread has exploded with interest in a way that no piece I've ever shared, has. And of course, we all know it is because of the subject line, and not the interest in my music. 

Cheers!
Dave


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## Dear Villain

gyprock said:


> Dear Villain (what a stupid name),
> 
> Your'e a total loser and you should make your bed more often ... and please sell all those stupid musical gadgets you keep buying. When are you going to get a life and stop wasting your time on VI-Control.
> 
> Is that sufficiently harsh and mean spirited? If not, I apologize.



Well, the name thing, I'll grant you. It's a direct translation of my name, David "Carovillano" (Italian for Dear Villain). 

As for being a total loser, no argument here. But I make my bed every day, and as others have pointed out, my musical "gadgets" are minimal compared to others here, as I use almost exclusively VSL samples.

Thanks for the feedback. It was sufficiently harsh and mean spirited 

Dave


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## method1

As for the mix, this is likely the reason Bruce Swedien left us, RIP.


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## CT

Sorry to add something that isn't negative to this thread, but whatever your reasons for all this, I think it's very worthwhile to properly weigh what the value of criticism or praise from strangers on the internet is. Are we really your audience? Even if we are to some degree, are we the most important ones? "Colleagues," if we can all think of each other as such, are not always the most useful sources of feedback, however counterintuitive that seems.

At any rate, at least you don't seem to be going down the same road of misanthropic madness that certain others have when faced with criticism or lack of interest from VI-Control.


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## José Herring

It's a fairly compelling piece. My only critique is that you should print out the parts, go to your local university. Post a gig. Hire some kids to rehearse for a few hours then record it. This kind of writing is better done with live players. The live interpretation will make this piece fairly enjoyable. But, with samples I'm not really drawn in to the piece so I have to judge your composition chops and kind of "unhear" the samples. 

But if you want harsh, then....your mom dresses you in funny shirts. That blue is so 90's. Looks like you got some second hand Beneton shirt from your local five and dime.


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## Dear Villain

Mike T said:


> Sorry to add something that isn't negative to this thread, but whatever your reasons for all this, I think it's very worthwhile to properly weigh what the value of criticism or praise from strangers on the internet is. Are we really your audience? Even if we are to some degree, are we the most important ones? "Colleagues," if we can all think of each other as such, are not always the most useful sources of feedback, however counterintuitive that seems.
> 
> At any rate, at least you don't seem to be going down the same road of misanthropic madness that certain others have when faced with criticism or lack of interest from VI-Control.



Appreciate this insight, Mike T. I have definitely walked in to the lion's den, and a big problem with the VI forum, is even if we are all "colleagues", our backgrounds and musical interests/experiences are so diverse that the feedback received could be mired in one's personal preferences/musical familiarity/knowledge.

As for madness, I've invited the scorn, and will find a constructive way to deal with it when the "meanness" stops trickling in 

Dave


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## CT

Yeah exactly. Those of us who are deep into this stuff bring all of that with us when we listen. It's not at all the typical response to music, even compared to "educated" classical listeners. We are inevitably viewing all of this firmly from behind the curtain.


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## Dear Villain

José Herring said:


> It's a fairly compelling piece. My only critique is that you should print out the parts, go to your local university. Post a gig. Hire some kids to rehearse for a few hours then record it. This kind of writing is better done with live players. The live interpretation will make this piece fairly enjoyable. But, with samples I'm not really drawn in to the piece so I have to judge your composition chops and kind of "unhear" the samples.
> 
> But if you want harsh, then....your mom dresses you in funny shirts. That blue is so 90's. Looks like you got some second hand Beneton shirt from your local five and dime.



Thanks, José! I do have parts for this, but believe it or not, I purposely avoid hiring musicians to play my music, professional or semi-pros. I'd much rather have no "real" performance, than to pay for the pleasure of a live performance (sounds so dirty worded like that!) I have had many professional ensemble performances over the years, chamber to orchestra, and can say almost universally, I've never had a live performance with enough rehearsal time to create a "better than mock-up" recording...save for the obvious emotional/musical nuances that live musicians can bring to a performance. (Funny aside, I'm reminded of a string trio that performed my "In the Blink of an Eye" piece, a rapid, playful piece intended to take about 6 minutes...in 9 and a half minutes. The ensemble willfully ignored the highly detailed score and midi performance. Months later, they played it again at a more appropriate tempo, but with enough other nuisances that made me more satisfied with the sampled performance in many ways)

Oh, and I do wear funny shirts (actually wearing a blue one right now!) It's Value Village where I live, as I've never heard of Five and Dime 

Cheers!
Dave


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## José Herring

Dear Villain said:


> Thanks, José! I do have parts for this, but believe it or not, I purposely avoid hiring musicians to play my music, professional or semi-pros. I'd much rather have no "real" performance, than to pay for the pleasure of a live performance (sounds so dirty worded like that!) I have had many professional ensemble performances over the years, chamber to orchestra, and can say almost universally, I've never had a live performance with enough rehearsal time to create a "better than mock-up" recording...save for the obvious emotional/musical nuances that live musicians can bring to a performance. (Funny aside, I'm reminded of a string trio that performed my "In the Blink of an Eye" piece, a rapid, playful piece intended to take about 6 minutes...in 9 and a half minutes. The ensemble willfully ignored the highly detailed score and midi performance. Months later, they played it again at a more appropriate tempo, but with enough other nuisances that made me more satisfied with the sampled performance in many ways)
> 
> Oh, and I do wear funny shirts (actually wearing a blue one right now!) It's Value Village where I live, as I've never heard of Five and Dime
> 
> Cheers!
> Dave


When you're dealing with real people with ideas of their own and feelings, you have to ride them a little bit in order to get what you want. That's half the fun. You got to be the leader. Or they'll just turn against you.


----------



## pbattersby

Ok, I'll play.

To quote the movie Amadeus: "There are too many notes"

To quote Saturday Night Live: "It needs more cowbell"


----------



## Dear Villain

José Herring said:


> When you're dealing with real people with ideas of their own and feelings, you have to ride them a little bit in order to get what you want. That's half the fun. You got to be the leader. Or they'll just turn against you.



Sage advice, and I wholly agree with the need to tame the beasts, except I'm much happier seeing what I get out of them without my prodding and leading, unless of course they ask for it. Some of the train wreck performances lead to fun conversation with my wife


----------



## Dear Villain

pbattersby said:


> Ok, I'll play.
> 
> To quote the movie Amadeus: "There are too many notes"
> 
> To quote Saturday Night Live: "It needs more cowbell"



"Which notes should I cut, Sire?" I would have added, "maybe I should cut your throat instead, you royal ignoramus!"


----------



## PerryD

Nice work. The appetizer of demanding _negative_ criticism unfortunately spoiled a bit of my listening experience before I even hit play. I have to admit, specific & judicial criticism can be very beneficial for someone wanting to improve.


----------



## patrick76

Zero&One said:


> Ok, I'll do it... I'll summon the vi-c demon...
> 
> @re-peat


Even if I disagree with a post by re-peat, I always enjoy reading it. Hope he stops by for a critique.


----------



## Noeticus

The music in question has not been diminished in any way by the use of VSL samples.

VSL is to best of the best.

So there!


----------



## Dear Villain

PerryD said:


> Nice work. The appetizer of demanding _negative_ criticism unfortunately spoiled a bit of my listening experience before I even hit play. I have to admit, specific & judicial criticism can be very beneficial for someone wanting to improve.



Sorry for pre-conditioning your listening experience, PerryD. Truth is, if I just posted the piece, it wouldn't have received a single comment and you likely would have missed the posting entirely. Thanks for your comments!

Dave


----------



## Dear Villain

Noeticus said:


> The music in question has not been diminished in any way by the use of VSL samples.
> 
> VSL is to best of the best.
> 
> So there!



Hard to tell if that's sarcasm or not. I apologize to VSL for potentially negatively influencing others' opinions of their libraries with my weak skills. All you need do is listen to Guy Bacos' works if you want to hear VSL's capabilities in the hands of an actual composer and midi expert.

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## pmcrockett

IMO your panning is too wide, and the instruments don't gel spatially. They sound like they were recorded separately. Which, being samples, they obviously were, but you're not quite selling the illusion.

It's like the players are each in their own blanket fort in the corners of a recital hall. A bit muffled in terms of reverb and frequency balance, and the instruments sound a bit lifeless and lack any sort of immediacy, which makes the mockup programming sound worse than it actually is. Because the mockup programming itself isn't bad -- it's the production issues that I think are the problem.

I've done what I can to fix these problems -- see attachment (limited by working from a YouTube rip, of course). (And sorry about the occasional audio glitches -- YouTube capture artifacts.) What I've done to it includes:


Stripping as much of the reverb out as I can with a reverb reducer
Slightly increasing the noise component the higher frequencies with a noise/tonal balancer for a bit more bite
Harmonic exciter
Futzing with the stereo image
A bit of compression below 130 Hz
Spatial positioning with SPAT
A different, clearer reverb
EQ
Warmth/saturation (Decapitator + Radiator)
A bit of Zynaptiq Intensity just because I always put it on my master bus

I think it sounds better after doing this to it. It's closer to an idiomatic string quartet recording, and the performance nuances are clearer.

A closing thought: Like you, I have a music masters degree, so we both know that this is exactly the kind of music people write in grad school. I'll let you decide whether that's a good thing or not.



EDIT: Have removed the attachment because OP has removed the original video.


----------



## rnieto

Not my tempo.


----------



## Crowe

@re-peat re-peat re-peat.

That should do it.


----------



## Zero&One

Never do that in front of a mirror.


----------



## José Herring

Dear Villain said:


> Thanks, José! I do have parts for this, but believe it or not, I purposely avoid hiring musicians to play my music, professional or semi-pros. I'd much rather have no "real" performance, than to pay for the pleasure of a live performance (sounds so dirty worded like that!) I have had many professional ensemble performances over the years, chamber to orchestra, and can say almost universally, I've never had a live performance with enough rehearsal time to create a "better than mock-up" recording...save for the obvious emotional/musical nuances that live musicians can bring to a performance. (Funny aside, I'm reminded of a string trio that performed my "In the Blink of an Eye" piece, a rapid, playful piece intended to take about 6 minutes...in 9 and a half minutes. The ensemble willfully ignored the highly detailed score and midi performance. Months later, they played it again at a more appropriate tempo, but with enough other nuisances that made me more satisfied with the sampled performance in many ways)
> 
> Oh, and I do wear funny shirts (actually wearing a blue one right now!) It's Value Village where I live, as I've never heard of Five and Dime
> 
> Cheers!
> Dave


I guess I dated myself then. Five and Dime was a generic term used for stores in the 70's that were the precursors to Dollar stores. They'd take old out dated merchandise and slang it out to poor people. Not that I've ever been to one...no not me.


----------



## José Herring

Zero&One said:


> Never do that in front of a mirror.


You'll conjure up old tortured composer souls that have vanished into composer oblivion by his sharp tongue and sardonic wit. 

Actually I use to have a real problem with Repeat until I realized that the only reason it hurts so much is because there is a hint of truth in what he's critiquing. Not saying it's all true because nobody is that bad, but there is some point in what he is saying. I've actually learned a bit from him.


----------



## David Cuny

First of all, what's this with instrumentals being longer than 3:30? If that works for a bazillion pop songs, I don't see why your music is so precious and special that it needs more time than that.

Any time beyond that limit needs to be earned.

In the intro, there's competition between the violin doing a fluttery thing like a dead bird, and the cello trying to play some other sort of figure, and they're busy competing with each other. Which one am I supposed to be paying attention to? Then they come to the end of the phrase, but before they stop, they try to out-flourish each other, so neither gets the upper hand.

Then the fragments go to other voices - they aren't interesting enough to be considered theme - and for some reason one of the instruments starts playing staccato, apparently because there has to be constant contrast, so sure, why not insert a new articulation that has no other motivation other than add more competition between the voices?

So at :30 seconds in, it doesn't feel like a composition, just a bunch of ideas thrown out with the hope that something sticks to the wall.

There's some more hand-off between instruments, then a bit of a skipping idea, then some longer notes - contrasting rhythms, but there's no particular motivation to what's happening, just contrast for the sake of contrast. This cadences at :47 with a sort of idea that sounds like it belongs is a horror film suspense cue. Then a smooth falling legato line and the cello decides it's gotta play some low tremolo because... what, it's been perhaps 20 seconds since it last did it, and it'll again make a contrast with the high strings. Contrast for the sake of contrast, because that's pretty much all this music has been.

The at :56 all the players decide to switch to tremolo because... well, I guess when everyone is playing something that's contrasting, the only option is to make all the players do the same thing?

At about 1:10 is there's a lot of different stuff happening. Again. Nicely balanced, but not actually doing anything other than restating the melodically weak motifs that were introduced before. The violin is busy; the inner strings start to play something almost resembling a theme, and then the insipid skipping figure makes a reappearance in the cello, followed by a Carl Stalling-esque step-wise motion and stuff cadences at 1:17.

And... It's apparently still too early in the piece to introduce an actual solid idea, because more pilfering from Cartoon Scoring 101 back into that syncopated figure again. Repeating little kernels of ideas isn't the same as development, it's pretty much the same as finding unpopped kernels of popcorn at the bottom of the bag.

At 1:30 it starts to sound more promising - a bit more like a classical composition, and not someone trying out a bunch of string articulations they found at the back of their orchestration book. But instead of developing into anything interesting, it just splinters the idea between the voices. For a moment it's got me hoping there might be some fugal development or something, but no... at 1:56 the stupid skipping motif comes back. The sad bit is that that insipid figure is probably the most interesting idea in the piece, and it's and has worn out its welcome long ago.

Not even two minutes into this piece?_ Kill me now._ What's that sound? My daughter is vacuuming up the room, a welcome break for my ears.

More of the skipping figure, with some obligatory tremolo by the cello. It's a repetition of an idea that wasn't interesting the first time I heard it, and I'm no fonder of it this time around.

Some call and response, with the violins and viola playing that damned skipping figure, and cello sitting at the bottom with that tremolo, because goodness knows we haven't heard enough of that idea, either. This accelerates, and threatens to actually build into something interesting. But fear not, because any sort tension and motion is dissipated by fragmenting it apart again.

For a moment I thought I might have some sort of emotional response, but remains a cold, intellectual exercise.

At 2:55 the quartet comes to a stop again, like a scene change in an existential play: nothing's really happened, and it's not even half over? I'm starting to question some of my life decisions.

Fortunately, Chris deBurgh is singing "The Getaway" on the record player a couple feet away, and I take that as a cue to make my own escape, despite the allure of listening to another four minutes of arranging motives that fails to stir real emotion.

Looks like you didn't earn that "past 3:30 seconds" bit I started off with.

*Edit:* I didn't read through the thread, as not to bias my feedback. It looks like* Shiirai *already wrote what I did, and far more succinctly.


----------



## GNP

Lol I appreciate your humility, but also, what's the point in inviting "criticism" that isn't well observed, thought out or has its own personal agendas, and really has nothing to do with your actual work on an objective level.


----------



## Dear Villain

Thank you to everybody that took the time to listen and share your thoughts. I am hoping to now put this thread to rest and allow other much more deserving composers the opportunity to have their work recognized by the forum members. 

While I invited the onslaught, and you responded in kind, I sincerey hope that you'll respect my wish to stop replying to this thread going forward . I assure you, your words have indeed impacted me, and there's no need to "hammer the nail" in further.

Be well everyone,
Dave


----------



## Crowe

I gotta say, you're delightfully weird.


----------



## el-bo

A thoroughly depressing thread :(


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Did anyone else notice this on his website? 





I sent him a PM. I hope David is OK.


----------



## Noeticus

Dear Villain said:


> Hard to tell if that's sarcasm or not. I apologize to VSL for potentially negatively influencing others' opinions of their libraries with my weak skills. All you need do is listen to Guy Bacos' works if you want to hear VSL's capabilities in the hands of an actual composer and midi expert.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave




I was not being sarcastic.

Best wishes...


----------



## Polkasound

marclawsonmusic said:


> Did anyone else notice this on his website?



He posted this on his VI-C profile about 20 minutes ago: "Looking forward to the next part of my journey". I hope everything is OK, too.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Polkasound said:


> He posted this on his VI-C profile about 20 minutes ago: "Looking forward to the next part of my journey". I hope everything is OK, too.


I mostly haven't read the thread, but I hope he's okay too. People's well-being is more important than music.


----------



## Polkasound

Dear Villain said:


> I assure you, your words have indeed impacted me, and there's no need to "hammer the nail" in further.



I sincerely hope my words did not impact you in any way except to make you laugh. Some of us, like myself, interpreted your opening post as an invitation for Don Rickles-like jabs — very cutting, humorous ribbing, but delivered entirely out of respect for the excellent musician you are.


----------



## Zero&One

Yes, I do hope it’s just a new chapter in his life and nothing bad.
I always enjoyed his posts and music. Some of it was way over my head, but always great.


----------



## ka00

David, I don't know if you're reading this thread anymore -- or more importantly, if this applies to you in any way (I may likely be projecting)-- but I'm naturally an introverted person, and perhaps like many here, I've tried to use making "art" as a way to try to connect with people... or to be "understood"... or to feel "special"/"worthy".

When you put your heart and soul into a piece of music, or a novel or a painting, and throw it on the internet it can often fall on deaf ears; drowned out in a sea of noise. And thus your feeling of isolation can compound.

What I think I've learned is that it's probably much easier on ourselves to focus on strategies for connecting with people in more dependable, less arm's length ways, like finding common interests, common passions, common backgrounds, having shared experiences, shared time, shared values, etc. 

For introverts that's hard to do, but I think for me it takes a lot of the pressure off of the "art" and makes it about enjoying both the process and the satisfaction of the end result for yourself. And I think it's healthier to look at it as just something you do because it interests you rather than something you are and something that defines you.

Anyway, hope you're well.


----------



## David Cuny

I'm concerned when other people put the value of their music - or themselves - in the hands of other people.

Asking about _commercial_ viability, that's one of the few times I'd trust crowdsourcing an opinion.

I took him at his word and didn't try to guess at the motivation. For all I know, he was simply trying to gauge reactions he'd gotten to determine how honest people were being about his music.

But a review that ignores the good parts of music and only focuses on the negatives isn't honest, either.

Personally, I'm hoping he sees what I'd written about his piece and thinks: _Yep, my critics are full of rubbish_ and then goes ahead and writes music that makes _him_ happy.


----------



## Spices

End this.

Spice


----------



## Alex Fraser

Yeah...only just seen this thread and it made me slightly uneasy - more so that it somehow reached nearly 100 posts. Seems like an exercise all round that has no benefit to anyone, least of all Dave, despite the fact he requested it. Hope he's alright.


----------



## Stringtree

I hope this is not closed, and someone can reach out. This needs attention fast.


----------



## Polkasound

Stringtree said:


> I hope this is not closed, and someone can reach out. This needs attention fast.



I read through the thread again, and a couple things Dave said give me the impression this is not necessarily a matter of urgency:

_"...or make me want to quit music..."
"I will take these comments to heart and evaluate my future with VSL/music in general going forward."_

It sounds more like he came to a crossroads with music, and used a rather bizarre way to help nudge himself toward a decision. But what I can't speculate about is what could possibly make him quit music, if that's what's happening here.


----------



## CT

Yeah, I suspect he's just having a musical crisis of faith and nothing more serious. I usually have at least one of those a day, and sometimes they're of a magnitude that might lead me to announce my retreat from it all on my website, if I had one. 

Not so sure I'd ask VI-Control to confirm my suspicions that I suck to make it easier, but hey....


----------



## Alex Fraser

Those are sensible readings of the situation. But the mantra of the forum is “musicians helping musicians” and this thread ‘ain’t it.

The better question is *why* Dave wanted the harsh comments. I didn’t actually hear the work before it was removed, but I’ve heard Dave’s stuff before and he comes from a place full of imagination and his efforts to wrangle VSL into submission are heroic.

If you’re still reading Dave, my advice would be to come at this from a different angle. Take a look at some of those iPad writing apps or get an all in one like BBCSO and just have some fun writing *to* the library, rather than trying to wrangle the midi into submission.

A


----------



## Crowe

I quite disagree. In fact, most of what I've seen in this thread has been people going directly against the thread-starter's wishes. This post itself goes directly against DV's request and that bothers me.

When I read through this topic, it looks like he knew *exactly* what he was doing. Lots of assumptions are being made and much criticism is is being levied at how 'this isn't helping' and 'how depressing it all is' but very few are considering this thread was started by a grown-ass adult with a very specific request. Funilly, ironically, hypocritically? I find it all a mite disrespectful.

'Help' is not deciding for someone else what help they require. 'Help' is asked for and then, maybe, given. There has been a lot of 'not helping' in this thread and the odd panic surely isn't helping either.

Lots of jumping to conclusions to be found here. Calm down.

Personally, the interaction in this thread reminds me of myself. I'm now quite interested in DV as both a person and a musician, as all of this is something *I would've done*. I stand by my earlier comment, it's all delightfully weird.

DV, if you're reading this:_ Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc_


----------



## Ivan M.

When I read the thread and "personal growth experiment" my first thought was a CBT or stoicism practice in handling rejection and criticism. Hope @Dear Villain you're ok


----------



## Alex Fraser

Despite the fact that criticism was solicited, I struggle to understand why someone would listen to Dave's music with the express intention of tearing it to pieces, _even if asked._ Where's the benefit to anyone? Maybe I missed the joke which would be surprising, since I'm always the first to bring nonsense and frivolty to the forum.



Shiirai said:


> When I read through this topic, it looks like he knew *exactly* what he was doing. Lots of assumptions are being made and much criticism is is being levied at how 'this isn't helping' and 'how depressing it all is' but very few are considering this thread was started by a grown-ass adult with a very specific request. Funilly, ironically, hypocritically? I find it all a mite disrespectful.



Perhaps, but there's an awful lot of tone-deaf posts in the thread too which demonstrate a complete unwillingness to read between the lines. Many "members composition" threads go ignored yet this thread is a happy pile-on...well...it is what it is. I'll say no more on the subject as my morning coffee is about to run out.

I do however agree that Dave probably knew which way this thread would go. There's an element of "played for and got" but I know that Dave is (a) Very passionate about his music and (b) I've had private DM's with him previously where he expresses a big distaste for the _very thing_ he's encouraging here.

That's what's pricked my attention. @Dear Villain mate, why don't you jump in the thread and put all this to bed?

Edit: I made a point of going over the thread again. To be fair, there's a lot of humour weaved throughout and it appears to all be taken in good grace. But the subsequent silence, taking the website down etc doesn't square - that's what causing the concern I think.


----------



## Noeticus

Has anyone heard from David?


----------



## Stringtree

This year I dismissed my drummer friend's appeals for help as theatrics. Yeah, they were hyperbolic and dramatic. I didn't listen to my gut. He was my best friend.

He's not here anymore so I can ask him. I'll never ever know.

Please, if anybody knows David for real, just make a call on his welfare. It's really inexpensive. The alternative is what's part of me now:

I will live with this absence of sound for as long as I live. The voice messages I keep but can't bring myself to listen to. Thousands of hours of jamming out together and making stuff that I will never hear again.

Bad times. A friend saying unusual things on multiple channels. Listen and act as soon as you can and however you can. Nobody ever wants to go off into the cold without giving it one last cry out. 

Listen and do something. It's there in writing. You're maybe embarrassing one person if you're wrong, but you're not just saving one person if you're right.


----------



## givemenoughrope

I meant to chime in with my one and only thought...but just skimmed and this certainly took a turn I didn't expect...

I was going to say that i listened to the first minute or so through the speaker in my phone while doing 5 other things and chasing my kid around... and even though the programming may or may not be the best that can be done with those samples and mix was very obviously not that even (to me) the music itself was compelling enough that days later I'm still meaning to get back to it and listen to the rest.

I agree with @José Herring that this needs live players. Practically begging for it.

Hope all is well with this guy...

EDIT- and now I guess he took the video down. I was looking forward to listening to it. Too bad bc this track was reminding me of the 'fact' that we aren't writing for samples (but instead using samples as just a mockup to be replaced with players) that we really have to be careful to not judge the music by the samples themselves.


----------



## José Herring

I'm not sure what happened. I saw a lot of encouragement and the only real harsh criticism was just made in jest for the most part. Seemed like he was good humored about it then something bizarre happened but not sure what exactly.

I hope it's nothing drastic. The piece showed some really moody qualities that I like in music.


----------



## Ivan M.

José Herring said:


> I'm not sure what happened. I saw a lot of encouragement



Yeah, but people might feel embarassed if "exposed" in some way. David's intention wasn't to talk about how he's feeling


----------



## MartinH.

Polkasound said:


> It sounds more like he came to a crossroads with music, and used a rather bizarre way to help nudge himself toward a decision. But what I can't speculate about is what could possibly make him quit music, if that's what's happening here.





Shiirai said:


> I quite disagree. In fact, most of what I've seen in this thread has been people going directly against the thread-starter's wishes. This post itself goes directly against DV's request and that bothers me.
> 
> When I read through this topic, it looks like he knew *exactly* what he was doing. Lots of assumptions are being made and much criticism is is being levied at how 'this isn't helping' and 'how depressing it all is' but very few are considering this thread was started by a grown-ass adult with a very specific request. Funilly, ironically, hypocritically? I find it all a mite disrespectful.
> 
> 'Help' is not deciding for someone else what help they require. 'Help' is asked for and then, maybe, given. There has been a lot of 'not helping' in this thread and the odd panic surely isn't helping either.
> 
> Lots of jumping to conclusions to be found here. Calm down.
> 
> Personally, the interaction in this thread reminds me of myself. I'm now quite interested in DV as both a person and a musician, as all of this is something *I would've done*. I stand by my earlier comment, it's all delightfully weird.
> 
> DV, if you're reading this:_ Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc_





José Herring said:


> I'm not sure what happened. I saw a lot of encouragement and the only real harsh criticism was just made in jest for the most part. Seemed like he was good humored about it then something bizarre happened but not sure what exactly.




When I saw the original opening post, I was quite confused. I then looked at the last 2 threads/pieces he posted here. One got two comments and he noted that's a welcome surprise - 2 more than expected, the next got 0 replies. I can only assume he wanted to demonstrate that people here just don't give a fuck about his music, unless also invited to ruthlessly tear him down. He got ~90 replies and the thread has ~4k views (last one had less than 100). He even got much more positive comments than usual. Also much more plays on youtube I imagine, although the video seems to be down now, so I can't check.

He spends _hundreds _of hours on some of his mockups, he said in a video. But they don't even get hundreds of views on youtube sometimes. How would anyone of us feel about those metrics? What must you personally get out of your craft, to not say "fuck that", turn your back on it, and do something more fun than manually tweaking keyswitches and CC data for a thousand+ hours each year?

I was thinking about this problem recently, even before this thread and I'm still contemplating opening one about "Guiding your creations through a cruel and uncaring world". I think there are challenges for creatives in todays world, that we haven't quite figured out how to handle or how to better prepare artists for. I believe many of us long to receive the kind of validation for our work that makes us feel like we've made at least the tiniest of contributions to the cultural heritage that exists past our death. But achieving that with _just _music, without it being attached to movies or games for example, and without making it about the creator as a person, is... unbelievably hard. And I don't have any answers either.



@Dear Villain: For what it's worth, I liked the mockup and composition. It's admittedly outside of my comfort zone, which these days consists of metal, electronic chillout music and the occasional game soundtrack, so you are correct that I likely wouldn't have listened to the whole piece without the stunt you pulled. But I can appreciate a level of sophistication that I'll never reach, and I admire your dedication and passion for your work.
I wish you all the best and I hope you find a way to keep enjoying creativity in some way, with or without a public audience. Time spent creating is never wasted!

I'm not sure if it is any consolation for you, but regarding the youtube metrics you're in good company. Check out "The Woman Astronaut" by Penka Kouneva: 



Top notch work, not too challenging or "out there" for the average listener, recorded with a real orchestra, ~350 views on the first track ~25 on the second, ~12 on the last ... 
I only discovered it through a mention on this forum and it blew my friggin mind how underappreciated such an achievement can be. 

People may hate on VSL, but this is proof that you can go unnoticed on youtube with 5-figure orchestral recording budgets too. And on the other hand there are sample based tracks with millions of views, it's not what makes or breaks the success of music it seems.


----------



## MGdepp

Everyone needs some sort of appreciation by others. But if you want to be a composer you simply need a lot of thick skin and self-motovation, for sure.

A guy who asks for appreciation- or rather the opposite - to a virtual instrument forum where probably more then 90% of the participants are musical illiterates is asking for trouble! He already knew what he wanted to hear! He had already made up his mind to quit!

And this is something I think I remember seeing before from this guy: he showed a piece of himself asking how people liked it and then wasn’t happy when people said they didn’t. You cannot improve, unless you have the ability to ...

1) ... decide who to listen to and who NOT to listen to!
2) ... accept harsh criticism from the right people and act on that.

If you just want to be loved by everyone, composer is not a good occupation for you.


----------



## el-bo

Shiirai said:


> Lots of assumptions are being made and much criticism is is being levied at how 'this isn't helping' and 'how depressing it all is' but very few are considering this thread was started by a grown-ass adult with a very specific request. Funilly, ironically, hypocritically? I find it all a mite disrespectful.



You can find it disrespectful, but I can't find it depressing? 

What I should've written (If anything at all) was that I found it depressing. I shouldn't have proposed it as a universal truth. However, the reason I didn't just dive in and 'count the ways' in which this thread actually did really make me sad was because I didn't want to make assumptions about the various motivations.

Also, just because an "adult" gives a specific request, it doesn't mean that other 'adults' should assume that a specific result is really desired, and that the request should be taken at face-value.

Anyway. As agreed, all we have here are assumptions.

I hope you take my post in the spirit intended. Just wanted to add some clarity, while addressing some of your points.


----------



## Trash Panda

Noeticus said:


> Has anyone heard from David?


I messaged him on Thursday and he responded that he’s working through some things. Haven’t heard since then and I hope he’s doing ok.


----------



## Noeticus

The Serinator said:


> I messaged him on Thursday and he responded that he’s working through some things. Haven’t heard since then and I hope he’s doing ok.



Thanks for this update.


----------



## Polkasound

MartinH. said:


> He spends _hundreds _of hours on some of his mockups, he said in a video. But they don't even get hundreds of views on youtube sometimes. How would anyone of us feel about those metrics?



It can be a disconcerting feeling, but I hope Dave knows that good music and a large reaction are not automatically related.

Post a really good mockup of Star Wars on VI-C, and you'll get a hundred likes and comments. Post a really good mockup of something obscure, and you may get none at all. The lack of response is not a reflection of the quality of the music, but rather the interests of the members who happen to be online at the time.

I hope Dave understands this and keeps making music, because nothing that happens on VI-Control can diminish how good of a composer he really is.


----------



## Zero&One

For me, he bailed from here and left us with more than a piece of deleted music. He left a decent discussion and some thoughts for everyone to digest.
I know he asked for us to stop, but when's that ever stopped viccer's.

There's been some great points, I've found some great music linked from @MartinH. Excellent.

Makes a nice change from the endless "what's the best xxx", when the person has usually chosen and just requires confirmation from the people who've already bought it. Disagree and you're toast. Weird really, I don't trust a single one of you  

Coming here and expecting music feedback is like me going on Facebook and posting a photo of my recent sandwich creation. Bit pointless, but you'll get the odd like or even 

Only Star Wars mockup's for me now baby!!


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## SupremeFist

Even the very harsh ripping in this thread (which was of course explicitly solicited) does not strike me as any more offensive than you should expect from a grumpy professor at music school. The difference is that you have a reason to take what your teacher says seriously (even if you're going to reject it), but why should you listen to it from random strangers?


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## Alex Fraser

Polkasound said:


> It can be a disconcerting feeling, but I hope Dave knows that good music and a large reaction are not automatically related.
> 
> Post a really good mockup of Star Wars on VI-C, and you'll get a hundred likes and comments. Post a really good mockup of something obscure, and you may get none at all. The lack of response is not a reflection of the quality of the music, but rather the interests of the members who happen to be online at the time.
> 
> I hope Dave understands this and keeps making music, because nothing that happens on VI-Control can diminish how good of a composer he really is.


Absolutely this. 

It appears the way the forum is setup means a post has to get a certain amount of traction pretty quickly before it drops off the radar. I think most members rely on the “what’s new” feature and alerts to guide their browsing. Just some guesswork. 

It probably helps to add things like the library used in the thread title (people are attracted to posts about the products they own - who doesn’t like to air an opinion?) Also the word “Spitfire” seems to attract attention, both good and bad.

Perhaps Dave knows this and was carrying out a (very successful) experiment in order to get his music heard.

Often after I’ve spent a coffee dispensing “wisdom” and pontificating, I’ll take a trip into the members composition section and listen to some of the posts. The view numbers are often depressing. Honestly, there’s some absolute gems to be found. 

I know it might not be the done thing to tag @Mike Greene into the thread - apologies - but perhaps it’s a thing that could be addressed? Perhaps members compositions could be more visible with more incentive for us to listen? After all, all we really want is to argue about legatos and have people listen to our music.
A


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## dzilizzi

I usually check the first page of What's New after I check my notifications. I don't always see the member compositions posts if they don't get any initial views. It is very easy for them to get lost. That said, I mostly don't comment as I don't feel qualified to make comments on a lot of this other than I like it. I really should listen to more.


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## Zero&One

Very true. I usually just glance the recent post section sadly.
Never post a piece of music when there's a new library release or a sale. Just gets swallowed up within an hour window.


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## el-bo

dzilizzi said:


> I usually check the first page of What's New after I check my notifications. I don't always see the member compositions posts if they don't get any initial views. It is very easy for them to get lost. That said, I mostly don't comment as I don't feel qualified to make comments on a lot of this other than I like it. I really should listen to more.



I'm also guilty of just hanging around the 'Latest Posts'. And I feel out of my depth with regard to commenting on music, here (Perhaps too much of an assumption, as I tend to avoid the compositions area). Also think I should listen more


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## CT

Like I tried to tell Dave, this is ultimately not a composition forum, it's a tech/gear forum. On top of that, again, like I said, this being a composition forum would probably make it even less ideal for what he seems to be after anyway, which I get the impression is not the kind of relatively narrow input on technical and musical technique that such forums can offer. 

He's just after an audience, and that's not easy to come by, least of all in places where everyone else is looking for the same thing, or in this case, more specific ways to improve towards that goal. 

Staypuft is right in what he says above. This kind of thing takes a thick skin: you have to be able to filter out useless opinions, to know when to take something seriously and act on it, and to love everything you do unconditionally regardless of what attention anyone else affords it. The last one is the most important. If you can't do that, it's going to be tough to keep going.


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## Polkasound

I do the same thing as so many others here... I check my notifications, then browse through the most recent posts looking for anything of interest. It's a little tougher for me because even though I use VI instruments extensively, I'm not into orchestral or trailer music, so I have little interest in Spitfire, VSL, Heavyocity, etc.

Unfortunately that also means I tend to skip over Members' Compositions posts. It's not that I don't like what people post, but it's just that I'd be more inclined to react to rock, pop, or country, which is rare here. But when I do listen to a member composition, I almost always give it a like because I appreciate the work that went into it.

But in my humble opinion, the compositions area doesn't have a built in audience, so none of us should have reaction expectations posting there. There are songwriter forums for purposes like that.


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## Bollen

I didn't even know we had member's composition area...! I'll try to make a point of visiting it more often...


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## Alex Fraser

Mike T said:


> Like I tried to tell Dave, this is ultimately not a composition forum, it's a tech/gear forum. On top of that, again, like I said, this being a composition forum would probably make it even less ideal for what he seems to be after anyway, which I get the impression is not the kind of relatively narrow input on technical and musical technique that such forums can offer.
> 
> He's just after an audience, and that's not easy to come by, least of all in places where everyone else is looking for the same thing, or in this case, more specific ways to improve towards that goal.
> 
> Staypuft is right in what he says above. This kind of thing takes a thick skin: you have to be able to filter out useless opinions, to know when to take something seriously and act on it, and to love everything you do unconditionally regardless of what attention anyone else affords it. The last one is the most important. If you can't do that, it's going to be tough to keep going.


Ah, I did wonder if Staypuft was back. At first I thought the avatar was a coincidence, but the tone remains the same. 😅😉


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## Alex Fraser

Polkasound said:


> in my humble opinion, the compositions area doesn't have a built in audience, so none of us should have reaction expectations posting there. There are songwriter forums for purposes like that.


I agree, but I tend to view the comp area here as “look what I did with this particular library” rather than “let’s discuss my use of counterpoint” 🙂


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## Henrik B. Jensen

Nothing beats taking the time to listen closely to a piece, writing down comments along the way, then posting it, only to have the composer respond in an ignorant way making it painfully obvious he wasn’t posting so he could learn from the response he might get; he posted solely for people to hear how wonderful a piece of music he’d made 

Edit:
This is generally speaking based on my previous experience commenting on Member’s Compositions


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## Polkasound

hbjdk said:


> Nothing beats taking the time to listen closely to a piece, writing down comments along the way, then posting it, only to have the composer respond in an ignorant way making it painfully obvious he wasn’t posting so he could learn from the response he might get; he posted solely for people to hear how wonderful a piece of music he’d made



Heheheh! But it actually does bring up a good point. The rule of thumb that I follow is this:

- Composition posted with request for feedback = open to constructive criticism
- Composition posted without request for feedback = open to positive comments only

I'm wondering if Dave may have misinterpreted not having received many comments as people having nothing positive to say about his work, which is simply not the case.

In a few days, I'll be posting a new single... a parody of a song by Boston. I just got approval from Tom Scholz via his publisher to release the song. I already know what kind of feedback I'm going to get from friends, family, DJs, etc. but when I post it on VI-Control, anything could happen:

If I post it when there are some 50-something and 60-something musicians online who appreciate classic rock, they'll catch the post and it might bounce around the front page a while and pick up some comments. But if I post it when there are mainly younger composers looking for Black Friday deals on string libraries, my post could get buried quickly and slip under the radar.

Posting tracks on VI-Control is hit or miss, which is why none of us should make the mistake of re-evaluating our work in a negative light based on lack of feedback.


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## CT

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Another option:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (....and then you click on it and it's the Adagio from Mahler 9 made with Synchron Strings Pro 🤣🤣🤣)



Are the eminently slappable faces required?


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## Mike Greene

Alex Fraser said:


> Ah, I did wonder if Staypuft was back. At first I thought the avatar was a coincidence, but the tone remains the same. 😅😉


It isn't Staypuft.

On the topic of getting more ears on Member Compositions, I like the idea, but I'm not sure what could, or should, be done. Bringing more attention to one section means other sections would be getting less attention. Like a mix, making one section louder means the other sections are quieter.

It's a crowded forum right now. Checking just now, you have to go to Page 7 of the Latest Posts just to get the last 24 hours worth up updated threads. Kind of insane, and it makes it tough for any thread to get traction.

So it's tough to say which categories should get more, or less, attention. Obviously Commercial Announcements and Deals threads are taking a lot of that space (especially now), but that's arguably a big reason people come here.

I'm open to ideas, though. Although maybe _after_ Black Friday and the Holidays would a better time to address it.


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## Ivan M.

Mike Greene said:


> you have to go to Page 7 of the Latest Posts just to get the last 24 hours worth up updated threads


Maybe have each major subforum have it's own "latest activity feed", and have multiple feeds on the landing page bellow the overal feed.


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## pmcrockett

Just spitballing here, but I wonder if maybe a weekly composition thread where people can post things would be worthwhile -- the idea being that any conversation in that thread bumps it back to the top of the latest posts, so it's constantly visible without taking up too much space. There's obviously still the possibility of individual pieces of music getting lost in the thread (instead of lost in the latest posts); it effectively makes compositions in general more visible and specific compositions less visible, but I wonder if that might increase overall engagement.


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## Henrik B. Jensen

pmcrockett said:


> Just spitballing here, but I wonder if maybe a weekly composition thread where people can post things would be worthwhile -- the idea being that any conversation in that thread bumps it back to the top of the latest posts, so it's constantly visible without taking up too much space. There's obviously still the possibility of individual pieces of music getting lost in the thread (instead of lost in the latest posts); it effectively makes compositions in general more visible and specific compositions less visible, but I wonder if that might increase overall engagement.


I get the thought behind this idea, but that thread would get chaotic real quick.


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## patrick76

I don't see a problem with the format the way it is. If I'm looking to hear compositions and I think I might have missed something, I can click on that section of the forum. No need to try to corral people in that direction in my opinion. 

This is such a weird thread. If Dear Villain wants to quit composing and felt the need to be piled on by VIC users to nudge him in that direction, I think that only he can know what is right for him. If he quits and later decides to fire up VSL again, of course he can. Perhaps he just needs a break. It seems that we can only continue to speculate at this time. That being the case, I'd like to speculate that he's been studying up on youtube and social media marketing and has just proved the theory he had been reading about.


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## Alex Fraser

Thanks Mike.

I guess it comes down to what options the forum software provides. The idea of a weekly composition thread is quite good though..some of the FB groups use this system.

My gut feeling though, is that most visitors simply gravitate towards the deals, technical talk and arguments. That’s what the majority audience wants.

Still, this thread is/was a good jump off point for the conversation.


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## CT

I really think we should institute my idea which requires all members to provide a complete piece using newly purchased libraries within one (1) week of mention of purchase, under pain of permanent ban.


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## Bman70

I think you just have to ask for feedback in a fairly specific way. José Herring has quite a long feedback thread there, but his question was an easily answered comparison. So things like "Do you like the reverb better in A, B, or C?" Or, "Are the violins too loud at 0:39?" are more likely to get answers than vague or general "What do you think," "Here's something I wrote."

Edit: Nevermind, I think José's is in another forum. But it's still good to ask for specific feedback


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## gohrev

This thread has been a very interesting read. I, too, have been wondering why some topics get lots of replies, whereas others get completely ignored.

Arguably the best argument I read is that VI-C is a music-technology forum. The focus on these boards isn’t on composition.

That said, I thoroughly enjoy listening to people’s works. You always learn a thing or two.


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## Alex Fraser

True.

It’s long been my suspicion that a significant portion of forum-folk aren’t actually as interested in writing music as they are “playing with the toys” so to speak. Like classic car owners who’d rather fettle under the bonnet rather than go for a drive. No harm of course but probably why the member comp area is often a ghost town.

(Also, that’s why I always find people like Dave interesting: They choose a tool and square up to it, actually writing some music.)


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## PeterN

Anyone who comes up with a thread like this, has some personality, which is great to see. Theres too much conformity going on, from language to social norms, and hopefully Villain comes back and pulls another one. He has been noticed now.


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## Dear Villain

Hi all!

I hesitated posting this here as I don't want to bump my thread back up to the top of the member's compositions, but in light of the many private messages I've left unanswered, I thought this would be the most efficient way to address everyone that took the time to participate. I am truly humbled by the outpouring of support and the compassion, empathy, and wisdom displayed by many of this forum's members. You are all amazing, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart!

The blog post on my website, linked below, offers an explanation if you care to read it. 

http://davidcarovillano.com/2020/11/28/seeking-external-validation-on-the-internet-an-inevitable-journey-in-to-madness/ (My Explanation)

I would like to consider the thread closed to any new comments, simply because I don't want to attract any more attention to this conversation which is no longer about a composition. If anyone feels a discussion should continue, please start a new thread in the "off topic" or "drama zone" etc.

Cheers!
Dave


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## sundrowned

Ha. Life is a wondrous thing. And music. Keep on going Dave. And everyone else. I wish you all the best.


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