# Upgrade from Cubase Elements or switch to Logic?



## Morodiene (Jan 26, 2016)

I'm a mac user and I've been using Cubase Elements 7, which I like. But now I'm realizing that this version has no expression maps which I feel is necessary for choral/orchestral writing.

So now I'm faced with a decision: do I get Cubase Artist (which is more affordable than Pro and still has the expression maps), or do I jump over to Logic, which I've been tempted to do because it seems a bit more user-friendly.

Also, if I go with Logic, I understand that they don't have expression maps and that you need to use a 3rd party program to set up keyswitches. If I went with Logic, what do you recommend for this?


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## mc_deli (Jan 26, 2016)

You don't have to use a separate program to set up key switches - but if you want to use note midi channel switching in the piano roll to trigger key switch changes in e.g. Kontakt, or use the track view automation lane to "draw" articulation changes that trigger key switches in Kontakt, then, yes, you need a scripter plug in.

There is no equivalent of Cubase's feature in Logic (Logic currently has an "Articulation ID" system, recently implemented for a handful of Logic's own VIs).

The 3rd party scripter plug ins are: SkiSwitcher (note midi channel switching), Babylon Waves (automation lane), Audio Grocery (both).
All three come with some "maps" for some libraries. You need to check the details. The supplied maps may/may not include the artics you want and may/may not be set up to meet your workflow (e.g. they might not be for a VI inside VEPro). Editing the scripts for your own VIs and artics takes concentration but is not a programming-type task.

This probably isn't a big plus for switching to Logic though. The reasons to switch are for the instruments, plug ins, logic, and if you have collaborators using it. It is great value. But it is a new tool to learn. I like Logic. But if I was on Cubase I would stick with it... it is a popular choice amongst heavyweights!


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## Vik (Jan 26, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> (Logic currently has an "Articulation ID" system, recently implemented for a handful of Logic's own VIs).


Logic had articulation IDs in Logic 9 as well - which says something about how fast (not!) that technology develops. 




> This probably isn't a big plus for switching to Logic though. The reasons to switch are for the instruments, plug ins, logic, and if you have collaborators using it. It is great value. But it is a new tool to learn. I like Logic. But if I was on Cubase I would stick with it... it is a popular choice amongst heavyweights!


 If you want to work with orchestral music, you probably won't use Logic own string (etc) sounds anyway, you'll most likely rely on Kontakt. Logic is in many ways a brilliant program, and I hope many composers/Kontakt users/score users/people who generally work with orchestral music starts to use it - that way there'll be more people asking for fixes and improvement. But (with my limited knowledge about Cubase) I'm not sure if Logic currently is a better choice than Cubase for this kind of work. Let's see what Logic 11 brings.


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## patrick76 (Jan 26, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> or do I jump over to Logic, which I've been tempted to do because it seems a bit more user-friendly.


I have used both and I would not say that Logic is more user-friendly.


Morodiene said:


> or do I jump over to Logic, which I've been tempted to do because it seems a bit more user-friendly.


Hi, have you had a chance to try out Logic? In my opinion it is not more user friendly than Cubase. I used to use Logic and am now a Cubase user. I'd say both have a similar learning curve.


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## Morodiene (Jan 26, 2016)

Thanks for all the info! So it sounds like it makes sense to stick with cubase. I guess I found Logic easier just because I had tried that at first, but then ended up going with Cubase. But now that I've learned Cubase (or some of it), I'll stick with it and keep my eye out for Logic 11.


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## SomeGuy (Jan 26, 2016)

If budget is an issue, go Logic. Logic is a professional program that gets great results, and its updated more frequently (and for FREE) than Cubase. However that being said I personally prefer the workflow of Cubase so even though I own both Logic, Cubase (and DP) I use Cubase for all my own projects and only use the others if I'm collaborating. That being said all three get the job done, and are professional tools, but again if budget is an issue for sure go Logic. It offers the most bang for the buck by FAR, and not just in terms of instruments / plugins, but in updates and bug fixes as well.


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## Morodiene (Jan 26, 2016)

If I go with Cubase Artist, I can get the upgrade for $199. I don't think I can justify getting Pro unless I'm going to need that eventually. Although that's weird, if I get Pro as an upgrade from Elements, it costs me $449. But if I get Artist as an upgrade from Elements it's $199, and then Pro as an upgrade from Artist, another $199. So I save $50 if I do it that way!

Still have to get the stupid dongle.


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## PJMorgan (Jan 27, 2016)

In the comparison list at Steinberg it looks like Artist only offers limited expression


Steinberg said:


> _Full instrument expression control on single-note level_



So for expression maps you'd have to upgrade to Full. Cubase is a great DAW & if I was moving to PC it would most likely be my DAW of choice but as others have said you really can't go wrong with Logic either, It is IMHO much more stable on mac than Cubase. I have Elements 8 & it has crashed a brave few times on me. Logics is the most stable DAW I've used (although there have been 1 or 2 iffy moments with El Capitan 10.11.2, 10.11.3 seems better though)

Even if you do decide to go with Cubase I don't think it would do any harm to have Logic too especially at the price Apple sells it for, it's an absolute bargain.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

PJMorgan said:


> In the comparison list at Steinberg it looks like Artist only offers limited expression
> 
> So for expression maps you'd have to upgrade to Full. Cubase is a great DAW & if I was moving to PC it would most likely be my DAW of choice but as others have said you really can't go wrong with Logic either, It is IMHO much more stable on mac than Cubase. I have Elements 8 & it has crashed a brave few times on me. Logics is the most stable DAW I've used (although there have been 1 or 2 iffy moments with El Capitan 10.11.2, 10.11.3 seems better though)
> 
> Even if you do decide to go with Cubase I don't think it would do any harm to have Logic too especially at the price Apple sells it for, it's an absolute bargain.



It would be nice if they actually just said "EXPRESSION MAPS" on their list of features and not "intuitive handling of articulations and dynamics". 

That's a good point about stability. Elements crashes on a pretty regular basis for me. I save often so I haven't lost anything as a result, but ya, it's not very stable. 

Really, since nobody's paying me to do anything and I'm new to all of this, I think Logic makes more sense economically right now. Skiswitcher seems to be a cool plugin too, and I can get both for $200 less than the cost of Cubase pro.


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## PJMorgan (Jan 27, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Really, since nobody's paying me to do anything and I'm new to all of this, I think Logic makes more sense economically right now. Skiswitcher seems to be a cool plugin too, and I can get both for $200 less than the cost of Cubase pro.



I think your right, if your not getting payed, the cost of Cubase Full plus the cost of the upgrades can get pretty steep. Skiswitcher is an excellent articulation script as is A.G.s automation based switcher. As much as I'd like art switching to be baked in, it's great that scripting gives this funtionality along with other great things that can be done with scripts.

Be sure to tick all the advanced setting in Logics preferences otherwise it's pretty much GarageBand while in basic mode.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 27, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> If I go with Cubase Artist, I can get the upgrade for $199. I don't think I can justify getting Pro unless I'm going to need that eventually. Although that's weird, if I get Pro as an upgrade from Elements, it costs me $449. But if I get Artist as an upgrade from Elements it's $199, and then Pro as an upgrade from Artist, another $199. So I save $50 if I do it that way!
> 
> Still have to get the stupid dongle.



Why is the dongle such stupid thing for you?


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## jonathanwright (Jan 27, 2016)

+1 for Skiswitcher. I prefer it to Expression Maps to be honest.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 27, 2016)

edited


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## ag75 (Jan 27, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Why is the dongle such stupid thing for you?


If you go back and forth between your laptop and your desktop, the dongle can get really annoying.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Why is the dongle such stupid thing for you?


It's annoying that I'd have to spend another $25 or so on top of the expense of the software. Yes, I know it's a one-time expense, but I've managed to avoid it so far.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

ag75 said:


> If you go back and forth between your laptop and your desktop, the dongle can get really annoying.


Ah this I didn't know. What happens? Do you have to do something each time you switch?


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## Daryl (Jan 27, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Ah this I didn't know. What happens? Do you have to do something each time you switch?


No, you just plug the dongle in and go. Much the same as plugging a drive in.

TBH I would never recommend Logic. Not because it's not as fully featured as Cubase, but because it locks you into using OSX. For me that is too big a risk. I would only ever use cross platform software, which for sequncers means Cubase (Nuendo), Pro Tools or DP.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Before making a decision on which way to go, I would stand back and watch videos. LogicPro X videos on YouTube and Cubase also.
> 
> For example:-



I like how this guy does videos, very clear and he knows what he's trying to say. Sometimes these guys tend to ramble or get off track


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> No, you just plug the dongle in and go. Much the same as plugging a drive in.
> 
> TBH I would never recommend Logic. Not because it's not as fully featured as Cubase, but because it locks you into using OSX. For me that is too big a risk. I would only ever use cross platform software, which for sequncers means Cubase (Nuendo), Pro Tools or DP.


Sure, I understand where you're coming from. As I said no one's paying me to compose, and I'm not really sure that will ever happen (I'm not looking to be a commercial composer). If I ever get to that point, I can probably justify buying Cubase Pro.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 27, 2016)

But by avoiding being tied to OSX, you can find yourself tied to other things. Don't want to be tied to Pages, you end up using Word, so you're tied to that. Use Cubase, you're tied to the elicenser. I'm trying the Halion 5 trial version right now, and it's VST3 and AU (apparently no VST2.4 on Mac), so I'm trying to see a good way to use it in Pro Tools - Komplete Kontrol does not wrap VST3 or AU - only VST2. And, if you want to use the Halion orchestra, it has a tie-in to Cubase's expression maps. Using Logic's included synths and effects can tie you to Logic, but at some point, you just have to use stuff. It's hard to always hedge your bets between platforms and DAWs.

I see a used Cubase Pro for sale at kvraudio's classifieds. So, there is the used option for Cubase, which can then be resold if at a later date you decide you do not like it.

I tried switching from Cubase to Pro Tools, and now to Logic. Instead, I now have three DAWs and switch between them all. Maybe someday I'll decide. Until then, I'll be switching randomly between them, often all three in the same day. :-|

So, good luck deciding!

Edit: Why I wanted to switch from Cubase: I was sick of the multi-window setup. I prefer the Logic and Studio One style. I also wanted to be free of the dongle, because I thought I would be switching to a laptop. I found that, by the time I plugged my audio interface and midi controller in, etc., I didn't feel like unplugging the laptop much, so I bought an iMac, where everything stays plugged in. So, dongles didn't make any difference for me, it turned out. Larger point: sometimes things that seem like a big deal aren't.


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## ag75 (Jan 27, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Ah this I didn't know. What happens? Do you have to do something each time you switch?


You need the usb dongle plugged into your lap top for it to work. I have a few vsl instruments that I need a dongle for. Not that big of a deal for a desktop because you just leave it plugged in but for a laptop it's a bit of a pain. I believe the demo version of cuebase doesn't require it but the paid version does. Just another thought.


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## Christof (Jan 27, 2016)

Switch to Logic...


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

ag75 said:


> You need the usb dongle plugged into your lap top for it to work. I have a few vsl instruments that I need a dongle for. Not that big of a deal for a desktop because you just leave it plugged in but for a laptop it's a bit of a pain. I believe the demo version of cuebase doesn't require it but the paid version does. Just another thought.


The demo version of Cubase Pro requires the dongle. I do use my laptop and my iMac interchangeably, so that would be an extra step, but doesn't sound like a big deal.


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 27, 2016)

Stick with Cubase. Here's my OPINION why. 

Cubase is the best software I've ever seen that can do midi and audio BOTH really well. The workflow is easy. The digital headroom is great for mixing and mastering. The stock plugins are beautiful sounding. You can find so many key commands on the Internet. I've barely had any hiccups or anything on Cubase as well. So my personal choice would be Cubase. Also, Steinberg is SO helpful. They're always available to answer questions. Apple will never personally respond so if you have an issue with Logic you're screwed unless somebody on a forum has answered it. For Cubase you always have direct access to customer support email and phone. And I believe they also have a live chat during certain hours. Overall the user experience is better on Cubase too!

And you already know Cubase too! Cubase pretty much takes all of the amazing audio stuff from pro tools, the midi stuff from logic and improves upon it without the stuff that doesn't work. So you get the best of both worlds inside of one DAW!


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## jacobthestupendous (Jan 27, 2016)

Cubase seems to win the consensus as far as the *best possible* option, but there are a whole lot of people for whom Logic works very well. Logic is a professional level program and a very good value for the money, and there's nothing that says you can't get and learn Cubase later whenever the high paying, enormous orchestral composition gigs start rolling in. I think you'll find that you will start higher on the learning curve of Cubase if you already have mastered Logic.


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 27, 2016)

If money was no object, Cubase any day. I personally love their search features for both tracks and plugins, as well as their custom key commands for macros, etc. They have really sped up my workflow. Steinberg are also one of the few companies that actually seem to innovate (see VST expression, VST connect, etc). However Cubase, like all software, have bugs that seem to never get fixed and unfortunately they charge way more often for upgrades (every year!). Steinberg also has the weird habit of changing things seemingly just to change them!

IMO the best bang for the buck is Logic by far. You get SOOOOO much for so little going with logic. I mean logic just recently acquired redmatica and camel audio and just added their technology to Logic and mainstage for free! And there are plenty of professionals out there who use Logic everyday. http://www.logicprohelp.com/vip_users.php

It really depends if you happy spending $500 for Cubase pro and $150 every two years to stay up to date/bug fixes, or just go $199 for Logic every 5 years or so (dont know exactly how often they charge for upgrades but its significantly less often than cubase). Of course the bottom line is work flow, so you really need to demo both and see which one is best for you. For me it was Cubase (switched from Logic) but I often recommend Logic to those starting out with limited budgets.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

When I mentioned to hubby that I'd have to get Cubase Pro and what that would cost, he was...less than enthused, let's say. He supports my various efforts, but I think it comes down to dollar signs right now. If my composing takes off then I can justify getting Cubase Pro, but if I can make Logic work for what I need to do, then I think I'll have to go with that.


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## tokatila (Jan 27, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> When I mentioned to hubby that I'd have to get Cubase Pro and what that would cost, he was...less than enthused, let's say. He supports my various efforts, but I think it comes down to dollar signs right now. If my composing takes off then I can justify getting Cubase Pro, but if I can make Logic work for what I need to do, then I think I'll have to go with that.



I would not recommend that, don't forget to value the time you must put in to really learn to use the/any DAW. Go straight what feels best for you and learn that from inside out.

I purchased elements, quickly realized that I needed the Artist version then maybe two weeks later I purchased pro. The price of the DAW is peanuts compared to sample libraries and plug-ins and if even more if you value your time as money as you should. When I purchased Pro I just said to my wife that I need it in order to work properly. End of discussion, since she trusts me knowing if it is worth the money or not.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 27, 2016)

There is still the used option for Cubase Pro. But, it also doesn't hurt to upgrade incrementally, in significant-other-approved bite size amounts. You learn the features of Artist, then when you're ready to learn more features, you upgrade to Pro. Buy the right software for the right reasons. Picking a DAW is like picking shoes. You want it/them to fit.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

Nachivnik said:


> I see a used Cubase Pro for sale at kvraudio's classifieds. So, there is the used option for Cubase, which can then be resold if at a later date you decide you do not like it.


Where did you see this? I just went there and couldn't find it.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 27, 2016)

Looks like it's been sold or pulled down since I first posted. It was here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=451208&start=30&hilit=cubase#p6366679

But, they do go up for sale from time to time.

Edit: Bah! Forget it. Just get Logic.


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## mc_deli (Jan 27, 2016)

I want to question why cost is a factor here. Your choice of DAW is (arguably) way more important than the libraries and plug ins you buy. At least it is where you will do everything so it is worth getting right. And the prices of Logic or any version of Cubase over 5 years are going to be fairly insignificant compared to the cost of an orchestral template with all the trimmings.

If you have the option of either then I think the most important factor might be who you want to collaborate with.


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## jtnyc (Jan 27, 2016)

geoffreyvernon said:


> Apple will never personally respond so if you have an issue with Logic you're screwed unless somebody on a forum has answered it.



This is not true. I have spoken to Apple pro app support many times over the years regarding issues with Logic


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

Well, I actually may qualify for Steinberg's educational discount! So I just need to apply for that and see what happens. That would mean I can get Pro for $329 plus the dongle, or there's one for $299 on ebay for a bit of extra savings. That's a really good deal!


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 27, 2016)

jtnyc said:


> This is not true. I have spoken to Apple pro app support many times over the years regarding issues with Logic



Must've been lucky because I've never been able to get anybody on the phone regarding Logic.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 27, 2016)

You can buy Apple store and itunes cards on sale, and use them to buy Logic at a discount.


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## PJMorgan (Jan 27, 2016)

Nachivnik said:


> You can buy Apple store and itunes cards on sale, and use them to buy Logic at a discount.



That's what I did, got iTunes cards for Christmas & my birthday & got logic at a great discount.

I think it's kind of ridiculous that all the cubase users jump in just as the OP makes her mind up to go for logic, one even saying cost shouldn't be a factor when the OP clearly states that budget definitely is a concern. The OP even says that she might never go down the route of becoming a media composer. There's also the FACT that Cubase doesn't work as well on Mac as it does on PC, next thing you'll all be telling the OP to ditch the Mac & get a PC, sure heck while your at it why not throw in a couple of slave PC's too 

My apologies for the rant Morodiene & for talking about you so much in third person.  I wish you the best of luck in your decision. As a Mac user I know what I'd be choosing, if I was on a PC I'd most likely go for Cubase......or Reaper.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

PJMorgan said:


> That's what I did, got iTunes cards for Christmas & my birthday & got logic at a great discount.
> 
> I think it's kind of ridiculous that all the cubase users jump in just as the OP makes her mind up to go for logic, one even saying cost shouldn't be a factor when the OP clearly states that budget definitely is a concern. The OP even says that she might never go down the route of becoming a media composer. There's also the FACT that Cubase doesn't work as well on Mac as it does on PC, next thing you'll all be telling the OP to ditch the Mac & get a PC, sure heck while your at it why not throw in a couple of slave PC's too
> 
> My apologies for the rant Morodiene & for talking about you so much in third person.  I wish you the best of luck in your decision. As a Mac user I know what I'd be choosing, if I was on a PC I'd most likely go for Cubase......or Reaper.


LOL, it's no problem. In the end, it's my decision (and hubby's - we decide things together  ). I'm going to sleep on it a bit, since even with the education discount, it's still going to be about $150 more than Logic.

I used to be on PCs for many years, but I got fed up with them. I switched to Macs and have never been happier. 

Anyways, I appreciate everyone's input!


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## germancomponist (Jan 27, 2016)

Morodiene, women give vast sums of money for shoes. Why this discussion here?


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## Nachivnik (Jan 27, 2016)

My earlier shoe analogy was only meant to illustrate the importance of getting the right fit. Both Cubase and Logic are good choices.


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

Nachivnik said:


> My earlier shoe analogy was only meant to illustrate the importance of getting the right fit. Both Cubase and Logic are good choices.


And my favorite pair of shoes happen to be $5 flip-flops, so


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## Morodiene (Jan 27, 2016)

Nachivnik said:


> You can buy Apple store and itunes cards on sale, and use them to buy Logic at a discount.


Thanks for the info! It always feels good getting a good deal.


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## IFM (Jan 27, 2016)

I love both and have recently been composing in Cubase mainly...fantastic MIDI editing. It is going to come with the dongle so you don't have to worry about that either.


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## milesito (Jan 27, 2016)

Stick with cubase


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## pkm (Jan 27, 2016)

Do you have access to a copy of Logic to try out and see if it is a good fit for you? Or maybe you could watch some YouTube screencasts or something. 

I just wouldn't base your decision on the opinions of people in here because it's a very biased discussion (i.e. what kind of car is best?). For the most part, Logic users will say Logic is better, and Cubase users will say Cubase is better. I think they are both very, very capable. Your familiarity with Cubase might push you over the edge in that direction, or you might find that there's something about Logic that just clicks with you.

Good luck!


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## Vik (Jan 27, 2016)

I'm a Logic user and have been that for ages. It's brilliant for pop music, loop based music, electronica, hip hop, rap etc. But while Steinberg has a team of a dozen people working on score stuff and a very good track record for composing oriented features, Apple simply don't seem to have much interest in cc automation, expression maps, score features etc. With everything I know about Apple today, I would have chosen Cubase (or their upcoming score app) if I would have started out today - without any doubt.


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## Tatu (Jan 27, 2016)

Here's an opinion from a long time Logic user, who thinks that either of them is "better".

If I were in your situation, I'd continue with Cubase. Sure, you need to get that annoying dongle and it'll cost you 25 bucks + optional warranty and what not. But with that 25 and something, you'll buy yourself a freedom of choice when it comes to your future platform and you won't be married to OS X / overpriced macs. 

And surely there'll come a day when you ask; "Dear VI-C, What's the best plugin for this and that?" And you'll find out that some of them are protected with that very same dongle.



Vik said:


> with everything I know about Apple today, I would have chosen Cubase (or their upcoming score app) if I would have started out today - without any doubt.


So would I. But Apple has surprised Logic users before, so one never knows what's around the corner.


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## Vik (Jan 27, 2016)

Tatu said:


> So would I. But Apple has surprised Logic users before, so one never knows what's around the corner.


Sure. But there's a limit to how many years in a row I can hypnotise myself to believe that Apple actually cares about these things. In general, it seems that they don't really care about the phenomenon called "composer" at all - just look at how iTunes display eg. classical music. 
http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...tragedy-of-itunes-and-classical-music/399788/

Btw, Morodiene, have you seen this thread:
http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ram-for-work-with-orchestral-libraries.43016/


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## milesito (Jan 27, 2016)

Vik said:


> I'm a Logic user and has been that for ages. It's brilliant for pop music, loop based music, electronica, hip hop, rap etc. But while Steinberg has a team of a dozen people working on score stuff and a very good track record for composing oriented features, Apple simply don't seem to have much interest in cc automation, expression maps, score features etc. with everything I know about Apple today, I would have chosen Cubase (or their upcoming score app) if I would have started out today - without any doubt.



this is exactly my situation which is why i say stick with cubase! i am a logic user, still locked in, but envy many of the cubase features...i used to use cubase long ago and switched to logic, but at this point...i like the cubase features for film scoring way better.


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## Tatu (Jan 27, 2016)

Vik said:


> there's a limit to how many years in a row I can hypnotise myself to believe that Apple actually cares about these things.


I agree again, but to me Logic as is is enough and if I ever switch to Cubase (I think I've been on the fence a few times too many already :D ), I'll do it because that'll be the day I stop using macs.

In Morodiene's case, I wouldn't fall in to that belief, that perhaps they'll ad those features in near future, when they exist in Cubase _today_.


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## Vik (Jan 27, 2016)

And btw, Morodiene - make sure you aren't being fooled by the "great value" feeling you get when you look at Logic's low price, because you need to bake those endless hours needed to sort out why Logic doesn't work "as expected" into the calculation as well. If you need more background info, have a look at this discussion about something which is very essential for working with virtual instruments: editing/c


Tatu said:


> In Morodiene's case, I wouldn't fall in to that belief, that perhaps they'll ad those features in near future, when they exist in Cubase _today_.


Well, that's the core of it all. It's not that Logic doesn't have as good Expression Maps as Logic, it's about the fact that Cubase got Expression Maps many years ago, they hired a large score team 2-3 years ago, while we see no signs that Apple is even trying to catch up, and if they do, they obviously need very, very long time to come up with proper score improvements, relevant CC automation improvements, articulation handling improvements, or with something which reminds of expression maps. After 2-3 decades in the DAW business, _not even trying_ is a very clear statement about what their priorities are.


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## jonathanwright (Jan 28, 2016)

For sake of balance (I use Cubase and Logic in equal amounts) I don't find I spend endless hours figuring out why Logic doesn't work. It works (for me) as expected. Although as is always the case I may use features that others don't and vice-versa, and so don't come across bugs that others do.

While not currently as feature rich as Cubase, the developers have made great strides in fixing bugs over last few updates, something which isn't happening with Steinberg. It's great having a new feature, but when it doesn't work, or is half implemented it's next to useless. As much as I love Cubase, 8.5 has driven me to distraction.

As with Logic though, that's with _my_ workflow, others will have a different experience.

While Expression Maps are a great invention, they haven't been touched or improved upon since their implementation.

It would be helpful if there were a demo of Logic, although you could pop into the local Apple Store. You'd probably be able to make your decision without us lot rambling on at you.


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## Daryl (Jan 28, 2016)

Just one correction; AFAIK the dongle is not "extra". It comes with Cubase.


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## SillyMidOn (Jan 28, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> I'm a mac user and I've been using Cubase Elements 7, which I like. But now I'm realizing that this version has no expression maps which I feel is necessary for choral/orchestral writing.



Expression maps are not at all essential for orchestral writing. 

As I can see from the discussion, your budget is a real issue, so as the "pro" version Logic is cheaper than the "Pro" version of Cubase, I would go for Logic.

It will also make the husband happier, and that is a huge plus!


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## SillyMidOn (Jan 28, 2016)

jonathanwright said:


> It would be helpful if there were a demo of Logic, although you could pop into the local Apple Store. You'd probably be able to make your decision without us lot rambling on at you.



... as Morodien has an iMac she would have garage band, which is basically like a demo version of Logic Pro.


... anyone remember "Logic Fun"?


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## soundgeek (Jan 28, 2016)

+1 for Logic
Love the included instruments, effects, and general workflow.


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## davidgary73 (Jan 28, 2016)

Logic Pro X is simple and easy to use. Just learn the basic and you're ready to make your music  

If you need Expression Map, AG Logic X Toolkit Pro works really well and its cheap. 

Anyway, here's a list of VIP Logic users @ http://www.logicprohelp.com/vip_users.php

John Powell and David Newman and many more uses Logic as well.


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## Morodiene (Jan 28, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Just one correction; AFAIK the dongle is not "extra". It comes with Cubase.


In the checkout I'm only given the option to download Cubase Pro and it says I need the USB-e-licenser, unlike with Elements where I just created an online account. The dongle is an additional $27.99.


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## Morodiene (Jan 28, 2016)

I watched several tutorials on Logic, and I like how it looks. With Cubase, it's easy for a window like the Mixer or the VST Instruments to get lost behind the main window, and there are so many teeny little buttons that you don't even know are there but they're very necessary to get at certain places. Of course I can work around these, but that coupled with the instability of Cubase on Macs (which I've experienced in Elements and apparently it's no better with Pro), and the fact that even with the educator discount it's about $150 more...I'm going to go with Logic for now.

FWIW, I use Finale for all my scoring, so this is strictly for playing it into VIs and (hopefully) making it sound somewhat realistic.

I can always change if I find it's not right for me and as I learn more, but I think it will suit my purposes for now. Thanks everyone for sharing your opinions


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## Morodiene (Jan 28, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Expression maps are not at all essential for orchestral writing.
> 
> As I can see from the discussion, your budget is a real issue, so as the "pro" version Logic is cheaper than the "Pro" version of Cubase, I would go for Logic.
> 
> It will also make the husband happier, and that is a huge plus!


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## Daryl (Jan 28, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> In the checkout I'm only given the option to download Cubase Pro and it says I need the USB-e-licenser, unlike with Elements where I just created an online account. The dongle is an additional $27.99.


Ah, you're doing a download. I was assuming that you were buying the boxed product. Sorry for the bad information then.


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## IFM (Jan 29, 2016)

No issues with Logic...it's fantastic too.


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## tav.one (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm a happy Logic user, but plan to use both together in future.

I have 2 quick questions:
1. Does the expression map work in Cubase if the VIs are hosted in VEPro?
2. If you have a weak system (i5 2.5GHz, 12G Ram, mid 2011 iMac) which DAW can perform better or its the same?


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## IFM (Jan 29, 2016)

itstav said:


> I'm a happy Logic user, but plan to use both together in future.
> 
> I have 2 quick questions:
> 1. Does the expression map work in Cubase if the VIs are hosted in VEPro?
> 2. If you have a weak system (i5 2.5GHz, 12G Ram, mid 2011 iMac) which DAW can perform better or its the same?



1) Expression maps work however you want so it doesn't matter if the VI is hosted on VEP or not. 
2) With Cubase's ASIO Guard the performance it a lot closer now. However you will get audio 'pauses' when working with VEP (search for previous discussions on this).
It really depends on what you want to do. If you host everything on VEP on a slave then your main system is fine. If you want to do a lot in the box then LPX might be a better way to go.
Grab the 30 day C8 demo and check it out to see.


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## JohnBMears (Jan 29, 2016)

You need a hardware dongle to Demo Cubase 8 Pro, but can download software dongle to Demo Cubase 8 Elements.
https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/trial.html


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## tav.one (Jan 29, 2016)

JohnBMears said:


> You need a hardware dongle to Demo Cubase 8 Pro, but can download software dongle to Demo Cubase 8 Elements.
> https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/trial.html



I already own full version of Cubase LE AI Elements 8, that I got with my Zoom H6, is is the same that you're talking about?


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## MyBootsOnFire (Jan 29, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> I watched several tutorials on Logic, and I like how it looks. With Cubase, it's easy for a window like the Mixer or the VST Instruments to get lost behind the main window, and there are so many teeny little buttons that you don't even know are there but they're very necessary to get at certain places.



That's why you need three monitors, or at least that's what i tell my wife. One for virtual instruments, one for the project window, and one touchscreen for the mixer. Now i just need to mount this TV i have over here to the wall so i have a place for the video player. Maybe i need a bigger TV actually...


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## JohnBMears (Jan 29, 2016)

itstav said:


> I already own full version of Cubase LE AI Elements 8, that I got with my Zoom H6, is is the same that you're talking about?



If you have a blue usb-elicenser https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/accessories/usb_elicenser.html
you can use it to activate Cubase Pro 8 Trial. If not, you can still activate Cubase 8 Elements, but just have to download the elicenser software and use it.


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## chimuelo (Jan 31, 2016)

I think Logic is a step up in fe a tures even though I don't own it.
My son does though and since all DAWs got similar performance/features, Logic has ESX 24 Sampler.

Its so mature and advandcec Id pay 5k for a limitless RAM Hardware version with its own OS.

Read how Charlie Clouser and others use it, see if it can help in your particular needs.

But its a one of a kind.
Mach V wishes it had such import / export capabilities and instrument support.


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## germancomponist (Jan 31, 2016)

Why not use both?


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## chimuelo (Feb 1, 2016)

Indeed. First rule of Government spending.
Why buy one when you can have two for twice the price...


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## IFM (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm a bit nervous about the latest LPX version. I gave it a spin an had it crash about two or three times which is something it had not done in a very long time and I see from other forums a lot of new bugs being reported. Kind of glad I am mainly in C8.5 now but I'm sure the Logic team will get a fix shortly...they have in the past.
Chris


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## jonathanwright (Feb 1, 2016)

Funnily enough I've had the opposite experience. Cubase 8.5 has been nothing but crashes and bugs for me (even after performing a completely fresh install), which prompted me to use LPX a bit more just lately. I've had one crash, which was due to the plugin naming bug.

Hopefully Steinberg will get their act together for the next point update.


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## IFM (Feb 1, 2016)

What version of OSX are you on Jonathan? I have not moved to El Cap yet.


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## jonathanwright (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm on El Cap, so maybe that has something to do with it. Apart from the multi-threading and other smaller fixes I've really noticed how much more responsive it is.


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## IFM (Feb 1, 2016)

jonathanwright said:


> I'm on El Cap, so maybe that has something to do with it. Apart from the multi-threading and other smaller fixes I've really noticed how much more responsive it is.



This could be. I'm very tempted to update because of how responsive I hear it is.


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## jonathanwright (Feb 1, 2016)

I've been very pleased with it.

(I'm always nervous about recommending someone upgrade just in case their computer blows up and it's all my fault )


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## samphony (Feb 1, 2016)

Dragonwind said:


> This could be. I'm very tempted to update because of how responsive I hear it is.



I'm still on 10.10.5 with zero issues. But I think it's safe upgrade to 10.11.3 or 10.11.4 once it's released.


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## IFM (Feb 1, 2016)

After backing up I took the plunge to El Cap. Everything worked and functioned very well. It's a toss up now which DAW works best. 
Chris


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## jonathanwright (Feb 2, 2016)

Dragonwind said:


> After backing up I took the plunge to El Cap. Everything worked and functioned very well. It's a toss up now which DAW works best.
> Chris



Great to hear it's working well for you.


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## Nachivnik (Feb 6, 2016)

Daryl said:


> I would only ever use cross platform software, which for sequncers means Cubase (Nuendo), Pro Tools or DP.


 Probably the best advice, I'm discovering.


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## esencia (Sep 18, 2016)

geoffreyvernon said:


> Stick with Cubase. Here's my OPINION why.
> 
> Cubase is the best software I've ever seen that can do midi and audio BOTH really well. The workflow is easy. The digital headroom is great for mixing and mastering. The stock plugins are beautiful sounding. You can find so many key commands on the Internet. I've barely had any hiccups or anything on Cubase as well. So my personal choice would be Cubase. Also, Steinberg is SO helpful. They're always available to answer questions. Apple will never personally respond so if you have an issue with Logic you're screwed unless somebody on a forum has answered it. For Cubase you always have direct access to customer support email and phone. And I believe they also have a live chat during certain hours. Overall the user experience is better on Cubase too!
> 
> And you already know Cubase too! Cubase pretty much takes all of the amazing audio stuff from pro tools, the midi stuff from logic and improves upon it without the stuff that doesn't work. So you get the best of both worlds inside of one DAW!


I own both Software (logic and cubase).. Recently I bought Cubase Pro 8.5.. and this is MY opinion also...

I realized that in cubase, the same articulation loaded in kontakt.. has more headroom than in logic. Better low end and more wide sound. I've tested it in my studio using Focal SM-9, and the difference it´s something clear for me...

But also, when I layer more articulations all over, I found much better headroom and a more pleasant sound.

Do you feel the same?


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