# Star Wars - The Imperial March using only AROOF (no expansions)



## Trash Panda (Nov 10, 2021)

Thought this would be a fun attempt for The OLC. None of the film selection expansions were used as I own none of them.

AROOF = Abbey Road One Orchestral Foundations for those not hip to the acronyms. 

The most challenging aspect was keeping each "section" (particularly flutes, oboes, clarinets) within the right range to avoid doubling up on the same textures.







Reaper Project and MIDI files attached below.


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## handz (Nov 10, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Thought this would be a fun attempt for The OLC. None of the film selection expansions were used as I own none of them.
> 
> AROOF = Abbey Road One Orchestral Foundations for those not hip to the acronyms.
> 
> The most challenging aspect was getting keeping each "section" (particularly flutes, oboes, clarinets) within the right range to avoid doubling up on the same textures.



Not bad actually. Maybe too much reverb. But I am pleasantly surprised. I think that mixing / mastering could be polished for even better results👌🏻


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Thought this would be a fun attempt for The OLC. None of the film selection expansions were used as I own none of them.
> 
> AROOF = Abbey Road One Orchestral Foundations for those not hip to the acronyms.
> 
> The most challenging aspect was getting keeping each "section" (particularly flutes, oboes, clarinets) within the right range to avoid doubling up on the same textures.



This sounds so AMAZINGLY good that I wonder if I am being fooled, as in, did you really only use AROOF?

If you did, BRAVO!!!

Also, did you have any issues with Legatos being unavailable as a patch?


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## Kery Michael (Nov 10, 2021)

Wow! Nice job. I’ve got one eye on AROOF for Black Friday. You’re track is definitely an argument in favor of it.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 10, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> This sounds so AMAZINGLY good that I wonder if I am being fooled, as in, did you really only use AROOF?
> 
> If you did, BRAVO!!!
> 
> Also, did you have any issues with Legatos being unavailable as a patch?


Yes. Only AROOF. I am now considering the Film Selections after working on this piece. 

This particular piece doesn’t have any parts that require legato, but I got by fine without legato on other pieces I’ve done where it would be applicable. Just takes some finagling with note overlaps and CCs.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 10, 2021)

handz said:


> Not bad actually. Maybe too much reverb. But I am pleasantly surprised. I think that mixing / mastering could be polished for even better results👌🏻


Point taken. I did forget to turn down the reverb after adding in the more ambient mics.


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## ryans (Nov 10, 2021)

Wow, easily the best mockup I've heard of this piece.

Couple things, those wrong woodwind notes at 0:52 were rather painful. Johnny is hurling his baton at the woodwind section if he hears that 

Also I feel the brass could be a bit more forceful (ouchhh forgive me) overall in the mix? Minor nitpick.

Awesome stuff.


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## Zanshin (Nov 10, 2021)

Fantastic


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Nice job Panda. Terrific sound.
Really makes me look forward to the more comprehensive libraries.


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## FireGS (Nov 10, 2021)

Did you offset the strings? There's a timing issue here, either the percussion is early, or the strings are late (and I think its strings late).


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## MaxOctane (Nov 10, 2021)

1. Great job

2. Another reminder that composition+orchestration is so much more important than the library.


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## JohannesR (Nov 11, 2021)

Wow, sounds really great! You can clearly hear the quality of the samples.

I can barely listen to it for more than ten seconds though, it is WAY off timing wise. I have a feeling something went wrong during export.


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## Evans (Nov 11, 2021)

If you have the time, it would be lovely to hear this again with no external plugins applied.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Did you offset the strings? There's a timing issue here, either the percussion is early, or the strings are late (and I think its strings late).





JohannesR said:


> I can barely listen to it for more than ten seconds though, it is WAY off timing wise. I have a feeling something went wrong during export.


Hmm. I’m guessing the strings have a larger pre-transient amount than the other sections. I did set the tightness values on everything to 0% from the default 50%. I’ll see if I can figure out the timing difference and fix that.


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## dhmusic (Nov 11, 2021)

Dayuum nice work! The brass sounds really good man


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 11, 2021)

Wow, on second listening, I've fired up the original, and it got me even more excited 😆, if you disregard the excessive reverb, and some issues here and there, it's shockingly close in overall color, vibe and doesn't scream "fake orchestra" as many, even modern libs do.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

Found the culprit! 

The pre-delay is all over the map in this library when Tightness is set to 0%.  

Fixed it in the render and uploaded the corrected version. It might also help with the perception of excessive reverb now that it's tighter. Thanks to those who picked up on that. I'd been listening to this long enough that I got used to the timing problems.

Keep the feedback coming. I'm happy to fix what better ears catch. 

High Strings: -80 ms
Low Strings: -60 ms
High & Low Winds: -30 ms
Horns: -40 ms
Trumpets & Low Brass: -25 ms
Percussion: 0 ms...


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

Vlzmusic said:


> Wow, on second listening, I've fired up the original, and it got me even more excited 😆, if you disregard the excessive reverb, and some issues here and there, it's shockingly close in overall color, vibe and doesn't scream "fake orchestra" as many, even modern libs do.


If you can provide a little more detail on the issues here and there, I'll be happy to fix them.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

ryans said:


> Wow, easily the best mockup I've heard of this piece.
> 
> Couple things, those wrong woodwind notes at 0:52 were rather painful. Johnny is hurling his baton at the woodwind section if he hears that
> 
> ...


Which notes/instruments in particular? The only copy of the score I could find online to match what my terrible ears heard is too fuzzy to make out the correct notes.

I added a little more close mics for the brass and turned down the strings/winds/percussion a smidge to help them stand out more as well.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

Evans said:


> If you have the time, it would be lovely to hear this again with no external plugins applied.


Sure thing. Here you go.


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## Evans (Nov 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Sure thing. Here you go.


Thanks! Nice work.

To be honest, this wasn't even for my benefit for a purchase decision. I already have AROOF and recently picked up the Selections. I'm just amazed at how it can sound purely with mic selection, articulation layering, and careful CC'ing, and want everyone to know.


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## FireGS (Nov 11, 2021)

Sounds like the low brass is an octave too low also? Or was this a stylistic choice?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Sounds like the low brass is an octave too low also? Or was this a stylistic choice?


Stylistic choice. I added an extra layer of the main lines on the bottom octave for some additional menacing growl.


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> If you can provide a little more detail on the issues here and there, I'll be happy to fix them.


Mainly I was thinking about the quiet segment after 0:47, and some sticking out cellos there, but I don't hear it anymore in the dry version...


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## MaxOctane (Nov 11, 2021)

@Trash Panda If you'd be willing to share the midi or project file, I'm super tempted to replace the instruments with a few other single-libraries:

* Sonuscore The Orchestra
* BBCSO
* Solstice (!)


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> @Trash Panda If you'd be willing to share the midi or project file, I'm super tempted to replace the instruments with a few other single-libraries:
> 
> * Sonuscore The Orchestra
> * BBCSO
> * Solstice (!)


Sure thing. Reaper Project and MIDI file attached to the original post.


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## TintoL (Nov 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Thought this would be a fun attempt for The OLC. None of the film selection expansions were used as I own none of them.
> 
> AROOF = Abbey Road One Orchestral Foundations for those not hip to the acronyms.
> 
> ...



That's truly freaking amazing. No legatos, just foundations.

The sounds is just great. The only thing that in general gives it away is runs. In this case it's understandable.

Awesome sound...


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

TintoL said:


> That's truly freaking amazing. No legatos, just foundations.
> 
> The sounds is just great. The only thing that in general gives it away is runs. In this case it's understandable.
> 
> Awesome sound...


Thank you! I figured the pitch shifted trombones to cover the range above C2, the pizzicato strings "harp" or glockenspiel "celeste" would have given it away.

*makes note: work more on runs*


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## Steve Martin (Nov 11, 2021)

I'm incredibly impressed how great this demo sounds. Amazing! Thanks for sharing


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## Noeticus (Nov 11, 2021)

Dear Trash Panda,

I just wanted to say once again how AWESOME your mockup is!!!


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## Germain B (Nov 11, 2021)

Great job !!

I was wondering about the trombones as it's hard to write for them with this limited low brass patch but you already answered.


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## Akora (Nov 11, 2021)

Extremely solid mockup, really nice work! If you don't mind, could you in short explain your mixing process in order to make it sound so nice and clean and not muddy? Any plugins you are using, or a specific workflow?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 11, 2021)

Akora said:


> Extremely solid mockup, really nice work! If you don't mind, could you in short explain your mixing process in order to make it sound so nice and clean and not muddy? Any plugins you are using, or a specific workflow?


It's different for every piece, and for this one it will probably be disappointingly simple, but sure. No promises on keeping it short though. 

My goal was to keep all mixing transparent, so I favored plugins with little to no coloration (no analog emulations).

After the arrangement was finished using Mic Mix 2, I played with different microphone settings to find one I liked that cut down on some of the natural reverb and gave some good bite to the brass/low strings and transients on everything else. This ended up being 66% Close, 100% Tree 1, 10% Ambient, 25% Outriggers, 50% Spill Mics.

After some feedback here to make the brass stand out more, I upped the brass close mics to 75% to give them more presence/bite and lowered the string bus by -4.5 dB and Woodwinds/Percussion by -3 dB.

With that out of the way, I wanted to add more punch to the rhythmic elements (percussion and strings), so they all got a dose of Smart:Comp to give the transients more oomph like in the original. Most were using the General profile, but some got instrument specific ones where they sounded better (bass, drums, etc.). I would also play with settings to see if I could find something I liked more than what they came up with (the computer usually had it just about right most times). The brass and woodwinds actually sounded _worse_ with compression applied, so they are just running straight into the group bus and then into the mix bus with no processing.

Reverb is Cinematic Rooms on an effect bus using default Amethyst Hall and a 12 dB/high pass filter before the reverb. It's set to about -12 dB because you get a fair amount of natural reverb from the Ambient, Outrigger and Spill Mics in the library.

On the mix bus, I applied Smooth Operator as my low-rent version of Soothe 2 to gain some clarity in the mid-range. Following that was Gullfoss Master at 10% Recover, 20% Tame, 3.0 dB Boost and Bias and Brightness adjusted to keep the bouncy ball indicator in the middle where it belongs. Low end cutoff was at 120 Hz and top at 10k to minimize the excessive boosts it likes to apply there.

Next was Ozone 9 run through the Modern AI master automation for a starting point and tweaked from there. I added the Low End Focus module with the "Clean and Punchy" preset, Spectral Shaper module with "Open Space" preset, and the Imager with "Modern Width" preset. Maximizer gets set to IIRC IV - Modern mode, -1.0 ceiling, True Peak on and the Threshold adjusted to hit -14 LUFS-I.

I use Tonal Balance Control 2 as the last plugin in the chain set to the Modern profile to identify any frequency imbalances and adjust the EQ in Ozone to tweak accordingly. Between Smooth Operator and Gullfoss, there's usually very little EQ work needed by Ozone.

Finally, I do a bunch of dry run renders in Reaper and adjust the Maximizer until the whole thing hits -14 LUFS with no clipping.

It sounds like a lot, but this is a pretty straightforward process once you get it down. It's all in the Reaper project file in the OP, so please feel free to dig around.

Now the Dancing Mad symphonic metal cover I did - THAT was an intense and challenging mixing session.


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## antret (Nov 11, 2021)

This is great! I don’t have much need for full orchestra packages, but your demo here makes a compelling argument to get one!


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## ryan-Phayder (Nov 11, 2021)

Impressive. Most impressive.


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## dhmusic (Nov 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Now the Dancing Mad symphonic metal cover I did - THAT was an intense and challenging mixing session.


No way! That track is impossible. Without a link I'll have to assume you're lying. 

"RROAWF Rroawfrowf roawf!"


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## pranic (Nov 11, 2021)

As most people already said -- this was a very well-crafted mock-up using AROOF. Nicely done and executed on! I know we all get hung up on the lack of legato patches, but I honestly think that you didn't need them for this (as you already said). Having AROOF myself, I was impressed that you got this from the base orchestral foundations without relying on the scoring selections. Just wanted to say thank you for sharing with us!


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## Michel Simons (Nov 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Found the culprit!
> 
> The pre-delay is all over the map in this library when Tightness is set to 0%.
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha, I was already wondering what these other people were on about. But of course I heard the corrected version. Anyway, impressed.


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## rnb_2 (Nov 11, 2021)

Very, very impressive - there are many places where this is, to my ear, indistinguishable from the OST - the tone is absolutely spot-on (not unexpected, since this is exactly the sort of thing that AROOF was created for, but it still takes a lot of skill to wring this out of it).

Someone else already mentioned the runs, so I'll just note a couple things: there's a bit of brass growl around 19s that stuck out to me, and the timpani should be more prominent at the end. Those are niggles, though - this is something to be very proud of.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 15, 2021)

I have removed the added bottom octave low brass from the first half since it seems to be poking out in a bad way and has been mentioned several times.

After playing around with the woodwind runs, it seems a decrescendo in velocity from 64 to 48 makes them more convincing, so that should sound better now.

Also turned up the timpani velocity at the end, so they should be more present.

Thanks again for all the feedback, everyone.


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## Ricgus3 (Nov 28, 2021)

Hi! I was trying to load the project in Reaper and use other libraries. But I get no sound when playing the project. I see midi information jumping in all tracks. I can remove the old notes and replace then in the midi editors and that makes them sound. Do you know why it does not sound with the midi items that are in the project?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 28, 2021)

Ricgus3 said:


> Hi! I was trying to load the project in Reaper and use other libraries. But I get no sound when playing the project. I see midi information jumping in all tracks. I can remove the old notes and replace then in the midi editors and that makes them sound. Do you know why it does not sound with the midi items that are in the project?


I set articulations using MIDI channels instead of keyswitches, so you'd likely need to set up articulations via MIDI channel or select all > set to MIDI channel 1 and put in your keyswitches.


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## Soundbed (Nov 28, 2021)

Nice work! Great job. 

I encountered a similar timing issue with my Star Wars theme mock-up using only AROOF when I played with tightness knobs. But I didn’t take the time to correct mine. 

Makes me want to open my project and try to improve it.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Nice work! Great job.
> 
> I encountered a similar timing issue with my Star Wars theme mock-up using only AROOF when I played with tightness knobs. But I didn’t take the time to correct mine.
> 
> Makes me want to open my project and try to improve it.


Would love to hear it!


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## Soundbed (Nov 28, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Would love to hear it!


If you insist lol. It's got a major timing issue with some runs that I left in there that "totally ruins things". But after revisiting the session I learned it's my fault with that tightness knob shenanigans and I could have made them better. Maybe someday I'll fix it. I spent waaay too long automating trumpet mics and never really got everything sounding exactly like the OST. I didn't want to use any EQ or any compression at all. And I sort of tried to use "as few instruments" as possible. So I moved on. But I might have some time to revisit this project at some point because I'm getting into "mocking things up" a bit more nowadays. We'll see...


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