# Difference between BMI and ASCAP



## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 22, 2007)

What is the main difference between BMI and ASCAP, when it comes to (foreign) composers doing library music?

TIA!


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## synthetic (Mar 22, 2007)

I was just about to start a thread about choosing between these two. I have heard that ASCAP has better events (in LA) but BMI is easier to get in touch with for help and questions. A young composer I spoke to was about to switch to BMI. I hope my question is not too far off topic from yours.


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 22, 2007)

They really, really are very similar to the point that looking at them is like having 6 in one hand and half a dozen in the other. However...I found something interesting while at USC years ago. I would always ask my professors or visiting composers about their impressions of ASCAP or BMI and they would tell you what I just told you. Then I would ask them which one they belonged to as a composer. More often then not they would say BMI. I found that interesting that while the general perception was that these two PROs were about the same, most of them (big names mind you) had chosen BMI over the other for various reasons unknown.

So I chose BMI and have been pretty happy with them and my access to them here in L.A. so far. I have a friend who joined ASCAP after USC and was happy, although recently he told me he was considering moving to BMI when his next year is up. But he did not say why.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 22, 2007)

That's weird! :roll: 

I guess there is no difference in how much royalties they collect for the composer given a certain publication? 

In my country there is only a single organization, which actually also collects royalties from 100+ countries, including the USA and Canada, but I have heard several reports that it can be smart or advisable for foreign composers to directly hook up with BMI or ASCAP, in spite of how tricky it can be with getting the required stuff (Tax ID forms etc).


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## Mike Greene (Mar 22, 2007)

The differences are trivial. Neither consistently beats the other because they both collect (and pay) using the same formulas. It all comes out the same in the end. Keep in mind, if one was better, everyone would have already joined that one.

I think they're about equal as far as numbers of big names signed to each. I know it was a big celebration for ASCAP when they managed to sign Mike Greene!

You'll make the same amount of money with either one. Years ago, there were certain rare instances, like infomercials, where one was significantly higher than the other, but those get fixed fairly quickly. To hedge my bets, I signed my wife up for BMI, but it's never seemed to make a difference, so I don't bother anymore and haven't put her on a cue sheet in years. Of course, the fact that I don't trust her may have also been a factor. :mrgreen:


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 22, 2007)

Cool, thanks Mike! :D


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## José Herring (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm with ASCAP. There's a lot of big names with ASCAP too. The reason why I joined is because I heard ASCAP was started by Aaron Copland and I was a New York composer at the time and all my New York friends where with ASCAP. BMI was more of a pop music group in New York so I decided that I'd stick with classical and Jazz cats 8) 

So basically it's all personal. 

But, ASCAP did look out for me personally once. In a really big way. It's all hush, hush so if you're interested I can PM you the details.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanks Jose!


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## hv (Mar 22, 2007)

There are some differences but I don't know if they impact your situation, Peter. In radio station reporting, for instance, BMI uses actual play counts while ASCAP samples select stations and extrapolates. The impact of this difference is that young independents tend to get zilch from ASCAP while they might get a few nickles from BMI. Particularly if they get any play time in college markets. The flip side is that BMI's reporting requirements for radio stations and live venues is a pain in the neck to them. So much so that some live venues don't allow BMI music to be performed... I run into that allot in smaller community theaters.

Another small difference to composers is that BMI requires an assignment of performance rights. ASCAP does not. The significance of this is that ASCAP artists can perform their own compositions in unlicensed venues or grant a waiver if they feel like it. BMI artists technically can't do that.

Another interesting tidbit flows from the history of BMI. It was apparently started when Johnny Mercer became president of ASCAP and decided to double its rates for radio airplay royalties around 1940. Radio stations revolted and formed their own rights organization, BMI. They didn't have any artists so they started recruiting what they called "hillbilly music" artists down in the southern states. Which eventually evolved into Country and Blues... markets dominated by BMI to this day.

None of these differences really impact film markets. They seem to have that market pretty evenly split and operate similarly.

Howard


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## Mike Greene (Mar 22, 2007)

And of course, if you join BMI, you will never again be able to be photographed without Doreen Ringer Ross being in the picture with you.


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 22, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Thu Mar 22 said:


> And of course, if you join BMI, you will never again be able to be photographed without Doreen Ringer Ross being in the picture with you.



Ultimately, that's why I joined BMI. :lol:


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## Hannes_F (Mar 22, 2007)

And ASCAP is a longer word and looks more significant on your letter paper or wherever


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 22, 2007)

Brian, 

Some composers years ago didn't wish to play games with their checks. The ASCAP sampling was prevelent up to a few years ago. This meant you could get a large check for doing very little and a small check for doing alot. It all depended on how their sampling fared. BMI on the otherhand did not do a sampling. This way you were assured of what you did would get counted. 

I switched to SESAC a few years back (like 5 or 6 now). I was ghosting on a gig and was in BMI and the main composer was ASACAP. BMI was not paying nearly as well as ASCAP at the time for the exact same series. About 1/3 of ASCAP's rate so I started to look elsewhere. Not sure how things are now. I presume they closed the gap some. Often it depends on which show and what network stuff lands on. One traditionally is higher on one station while the other will be higher on a different network.


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 22, 2007)

I actually thought foreign composers couldn't join BMI or ASCAP.. is this not true?


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 22, 2007)

As far as I know, BMI is more for the broadcast people, and ASCAP for the recording artists.



Hannes_F @ Fri Mar 23 said:


> And ASCAP is a longer word and looks more significant on your letter paper or wherever



It sounds like ASAP :D 



Peter Roos @ Thu Mar 22 said:


> In my country there is only a single organization, which actually also collects royalties from 100+ countries, including the USA and Canada, but I have heard several reports that it can be smart or advisable for foreign composers to directly hook up with BMI or ASCAP, in spite of how tricky it can be with getting the required stuff (Tax ID forms etc).



Peter, I don't think we can directly hook up with BMI or ASCAP from here. I don't have a clue though which one of the two Buma-Stemra works with.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 23, 2007)

Yes Herman, the BUMA should collect it (I'm member since 1987). However I have seen several foreign composers who are also BMI or ASCAP member. I already sent the BUMA an email about this.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 23, 2007)

Thanks Peter. Btw - a short film with my music will soon be aired on the Sci-Fi channel (and I think Sundance channel) in the US - Do you think I should give Buma or BMI/ASCAP a pointer?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 23, 2007)

If you are already a member you have to register any work that is published in some way with the BUMA/STEMRA using a registration form. Are you already member? If not, it's probably the right time now (will cost you 65 euro per year though).

Congratulations!


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 23, 2007)

thanks  

yep - I'm a member (last year I received a stunning 12 euros for co-writing a song :D that aired on the radio), and I've submitted the work online.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 23, 2007)

Hehe, lol

In 1987 I co-write a small Dutch hit (Zandvoort) and I am still getting some 300 euro per year for airplay and compilation albums.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 23, 2007)

Peter Roos @ Fri Mar 23 said:


> Hehe, lol
> 
> In 1987 I co-write a small Dutch hit (Zandvoort) and I am still getting some 300 euro per year for airplay and compilation albums.



yeah - I recall hearing it on your page :D 

Probably nothing compared to having a primetime daily TV show leader though. I wonder how one does get contacts like that though. I once had a meeting in an expensive Spanish restaurant with someone from Endemol, but that's it :lol:


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 23, 2007)

End The Mole? :D Lol
I have heard that the guy who made the NOS journal leaders is making big money from some simple souind design stuff.
It's all about having the right connections - his father was long time anchor man for the Dutch TV journal (Fred Emmer). Not sure if the current leader/logo is also from his son.


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