# Just Released: Vienna Dimension Strings



## Winslow (Sep 17, 2012)

There have been a lot of rumors, if VSL was working on a new sample library. Vienna Dimension Strings was always mentioned in that discussions. Well actually they were working on it since 2008!

Finally the Violins are released: http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/2512/2161.htm

What do you think? A little bit late for that move or just what we were waiting for?


Cheers,

Winslow


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## José Herring (Sep 17, 2012)

As with Dimension brass, I feel that the approach though might work in theory, doesn't really work in practice. There are a few things that sound ok in that demo. The upfront shorts add some bite, the fast legatos are pretty good, but overall that thin, sound just isn't working. It's like half of the sonic information is just missing.

It would be interesting though to hear the entire section. It might work out better then. Wait and see, but I'm not holding out high hopes.


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## SamiMatar (Sep 17, 2012)

"Recorded in groups, but with individual microphones for each player, for unlimited individual performance flexibility."

As impractical as that may sound, I'm excited to hear what the end result of that sounds like.


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## José Herring (Sep 17, 2012)

SamiMatar @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> "Recorded in groups, but with individual microphones for each player, for unlimited individual performance flexibility."
> 
> As impractical as that may sound, I'm excited to hear what the end result of that sounds like.



Yes, that could be cool and useful. I just remember being kind of interested in Dimension brass for the same reason only to be disappointed. Still haven't heard anything convincing from that library yet. But, brass has always been VSL's weak point, so I'm interested to hear if it works out better for strings. So far there are a few interesting things, but there's also spots in this demo that the violins don't even sound like violins, which is a bad sign. :lol:


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## Stephen Rees (Sep 17, 2012)

Watched the video demo and thought the violins sounded lovely inside MIR, and the 'Early Bird' price is very attractive.

Much respect from me to all on the Vienna team. You really do great work.


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## SamiMatar (Sep 17, 2012)

Although Dimension Brass is my go-to brass library right now, I understand your concern with it completely. But I believe every library has weaknesses, and libraries are as good as how well a composer/producer can work with these weaknesses.


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 17, 2012)

Only listened on a lap top (although good speakers). I think it sounds REALLY good.


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## jleckie (Sep 17, 2012)

Listening now with really bad cans on my iPad. Sounds lovely. I like the Psycho/Hermannesqe piece Christian choose to demo.


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## SamiMatar (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm not impressed with the demo. But I think, to Vienna's credit, its just a bad representation of what the product can actually do.


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## MaestroRage (Sep 17, 2012)

It seems like a god awful amount of programming to get something good. One of the reasons I didn't go with HW Strings was how they promoted ultimate control. Control I knew I wasn't going to tap properly.


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## José Herring (Sep 17, 2012)

SamiMatar @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> I'm not impressed with the demo. But I think, to Vienna's credit, its just a bad representation of what the product can actually do.



Some of it sounds pretty decent to me. But the parts that don't sound decent are really, not decent. Which is a little bit of concern.

The opening has a good tone up high, but has some pretty bad connections. Could just be the programming though. I like the pizz., and some of the shorts are pretty clear and in your face. But, the sustains in the middle register are really bad. Poor tone quality. The legato connection at the end is pretty good. 

So, we'll just have to see. Has potential. Maybe when Jbacal and Daryl get a chance to work it we can see what it really can do.


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## marcotronic (Sep 17, 2012)

Anybody else getting bad artefacts in the demo video? 

thanks
Marco


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## Justus (Sep 17, 2012)

Sounds quite good! Some of the legato transitions seem to be more pronounced than in older vsl libs.

*But to be honest:*
I don't want to fiddle around (no pun intended) with every single string of every single instrument, humanization tweaks, room placement etc. I just want to make music!


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## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2012)

Wow... Finally New Strings from VSL !

Sounds great to my ears. o/~ 

Hopefully more audio demos would be posted soon. 

I will most likely buy it. 

These are only Violins for now, they will have the rest of the strings family available in 2013. and have a special early purchasing price. Wonderful o=? 

Cheers,
Muziksclup


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## Niah (Sep 17, 2012)

Why are the violins crying?


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## germancomponist (Sep 17, 2012)

Interesting!

I am working on building sections with solo instruments for some years now. VSL did a very big step into the right direction! 

Congratulations! o-[][]-o


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 17, 2012)

marcotronic @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> Anybody else getting bad artefacts in the demo video?
> 
> thanks
> Marco



me! thanks god it isn't my gpu


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 17, 2012)

Whoa!

That's gonna take a bit of learning how to use this. _Definitely_ a grown man's tool. 

I imagine it's able to do things that no other current library can do. Expression is available at every turn. Tons of different violin tonalities - like real ensembles. The sound is a little 'present' and direct - even in the MIR setting they used. I'm sure there are ways around this. 

You can change every aspect of each single violin, desk or section. Just the opposite of a one-finger library. 

Let's hope they offer usable 'get-u-started' templates.

Interesting pricing - approx. $1500 (Standard + Extended) if you buy the whole library when all of its available in 2013. Or approx. $869 for just a download of the violins now and the rest of the library (Viola, Cello and Double Bass) free when available in 2013. 

Demo: http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=5978

Video: http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/2512/2517/2165.htm

.


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## StraightAheadSamples (Sep 17, 2012)

Some of the sounds are hit or miss for me right now. 

But I think this *IS* the future of ensemble sampling. I just don't want SO many options (a Sul E patch is mostly unnecessary, for example). 

But it's a step in the right direction, I think.


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## jamwerks (Sep 17, 2012)

Glad to see VSL putting out new stuff. I really like the idea behind this Dimension package. Seems you'd need at least Mir Pro 24 in addition to the library.

I wanna love this thing, as the combo DS + VIP is very efficient & functional.

Looking forward to listening to some A/B's between DS and Adagio. o[])


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## wcreed51 (Sep 17, 2012)

Actually, at today's exchange rate, 695 Euros is about $912...


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## handz (Sep 17, 2012)

Hmm As usually VSL´s strings does not impress me. Some nice chamber string sounds but I would finally appreciate some rich, lush sounding strings.


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## Saxer (Sep 17, 2012)

i turned pale when watching the voice counter of the vienna instrument pro in the demo video... just for a single violin line! probably a good idea to preorder now, so when the whole library is available (and already payed) there will also be a new mac pro...

beside that i think it will be a great concept! i made a lot of presets with vienna instrument pro and the possibilities are impressive. especially the humanize parameters add lot of different sounds made of the same samples. until now it was necessary to stack complete sections for that. having the single instruments of a section will be a big step forward! and with more humanizing the section will definetly sound more lush than in the demo. imagine stacking that with apassionata...


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## devastat (Sep 17, 2012)

Somehow I wish that VSL would have recorded strings in a real Hall this time. I wouldn't have to worry about the space as much, and i wouldn't have to purchase MIR to use the library. From looking at the introduction video, it also seems complicated to use. Wasn't DVZ Strings based on a similar idea? I really like the sound of those spiccatos tho.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Sep 17, 2012)

I think this is an amazing new product! I love the sound and its going to fit right into my workflow. 

The sound is really good and in line with VSL's pristine sonic quality.

For all those real-world users, please remember that this is a VSL company demo and I can tell with reasonable confidence that this can be made to sound very, very realistic even though Christian has done a great job already.

I can actually hear some liveliness in these samples. It sounds somehow better than Dimension Brass but I got Samplemodeling and combine that with VSL, its an amazing combination.

I am definitely going to get this soon.

I know a lot of your prefer halls but I actually prefer VSL's approach because you have total control. And with plug ins like SPAT and MIR this is no longer an issue for me at least. 

The tone can be adjusted as with all VSL samples they are incredibly clean so it is extremely tolerant of processing. Other libraries start to become noisy with eq and I am sorry but they simply dont have the quality control of VSL which is something that I have come to admire and respect about VSL.

Combine these with a few live players on top and you will have a great sound - at least as best at a mock-up level.


Tanuj.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 17, 2012)

MaestroRage @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> It seems like a god awful amount of programming to get something good. One of the reasons I didn't go with HW Strings was how they promoted ultimate control. Control I knew I wasn't going to tap properly.



Lots of good comments here, this is the one that chimed most. That said, I wasn't as impressed with the 8 voices played separately, as opposed to 8 together, as I thought I'd be - I figured this was going to be the big strength, but it kinda fell a bit flat there for me. Jose has a point, perhaps this is all better in theory than in practice.

On the plus side, I did like the tone and space (with MIR I presume, which of course is extra if you don't have it), and the fast stuff sounded very good indeed - as ever, it seems to me that this is the big strength of the silent stage and the whole VSL approach. Also the pricing seems very competative (£560 at current exchange rates).

The missing link - and the thing that might tempt me to buy it - is a whole lot more scripting for auto-control. Intelligent humanisation and divisi so there are patches where you just load and go. Fiddling with notes and CCs for 8 instruments on a deadline ain't my idea of fun.


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## adg21 (Sep 17, 2012)

It might just be me but I think MIR might causing more harm than good, I'd like to hear it without.

I agree with Tanuj

Although it's not on the same scale of samplemodelling the versatility and potential to customize the sound is something I can't wait to hear more about.

It also sounds like they've nailed non-vibrato to vibrato with a smaller section which is a pretty big deal. I'd like to hear more demos without vibrato or used very sparingly as baked in vibrato on midi strings (especially when it comes in early on a sustain) nearly always sounds fake and makes me feel nauseous.


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## jleckie (Sep 17, 2012)

Got to listen on some good fones and I think these strings have a LOT of character and sound gorgeous. So clean and detailed.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 17, 2012)

handz said:


> Some nice chamber string sounds but I would finally appreciate some rich, lush sounding strings.


Pretty hard to get a big section sound with 8 Vlns. But yeah, great smaller section sound! There are so many libs out there already with the 'big' amalgamated sonic footprint. You know the ones. Haven't had a chance to get my hands on this yet but it seems up front that perhaps layering VSL DS with another library for the big thematic statements and having DS alone for detail would be a boon. 

devastat said:


> From looking at the introduction video, it also seems complicated to use.


Yup, indeed. Might be daunting for guys on a TV schedule. This is why it is so very important for VSL to come up with some handy, real-world usable templates. Quite often their templates are not really useful.

Tanuj said:


> I can actually hear some liveliness in these samples. It sounds somehow better than Dimension Brass


Liveliness is its hallmark. I agree with the second statement also. 

and furthermore, Tanuj said:


> I know a lot of your prefer halls but I actually prefer VSL's approach because you have total control.


adg21 said:


> It might just be me but I think MIR might causing more harm than good


Regarding Tanuj's comment, yup, I prefer control. AND... there are a lot of tools out there now to create wonderful, personalized sonic environments. DS has a very etched sound and attack that comes from close micing each violin separately (even though they were recorded as an ensemble). It was necessary to do this to get this kind of control. There are plenty of processing tools to deal with both the attack and distance issues. No sense really in talking about those now as these combinations of tools will probably be developed by creative users in the near future and you never know what kind of productive, yet counter-intuitive methodology will show up. 

noiseboyuk said:


> the fast stuff sounded very good indeed - as ever


Another great hallmark of VSL samples. 


For me to purchase quickly, I'd like to get some sort of inkling of what the Violas, Cello and Double Bass sound like. I realize they aren't full edited yet but VSL must be able to cobble a demo together that characterizes what the whole VSL DS string orchestra will sound like. Even a simple 20-sec. Legato example would be good.

Even though in my heart of hearts I was hoping for a Sample Modeling kind of approach for their next products, this is still a sterling step forward. Congrats VSL!

.


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## rgames (Sep 17, 2012)

It all sounds good except for the vibrato - it's too distinct, like the vibrato is phase-aligned for each of the 8 players. Even though the section is small, the vibrato doesn't have enough of the detuning/lush effect. It's too much like pitch bend applied to a non-vib patch.

And yes, there is way too much complication in there. But you can always ignore those patches.

The one thing that really makes me want to jump on this is this: I bet VSL has some software trickery up their sleeves that will take this concept a lot further.

You know they're going to stick to their prices, so that discount is a real enticement...

rgames


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## Arbee (Sep 17, 2012)

I'll definitely be taking the early pricing offer on this. With the software they now have to drive it (VI Pro/VE Pro/MIR) I'm sure it will evolve into a great product and become easier to configure out of the box for a quick start over time. While not perfect, I can already hear the character I've been looking for in the audio demo.

There aren't many companies I'd put my money down for ahead of getting the full product but VSL's quality and professionalism have easily earned my trust. I'm just so thankful I've been patient and saved my money for this :|  :D


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## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2012)

I wonder how essential is using MIR Pro along with Vienna Dimension Strings ? 

i.e. How much of a difference in realsim, dimension/depth, color, and other sonic details would MIR Pro add ? 

It would be interesting to hear a Dim-Strings arrangement produced with, and without using 'MIR Pro' to compare, and evaluate the two versions. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## re-peat (Sep 17, 2012)

You don't need MIR. (Jack won't agree, but to this day, the DS demo included, I haven't heard MIR do anything which makes me say: "Wow, I need to have that.")

Anyway, once I've downoaded and installed the DS, and have learned how to use them (which might take a while, especially as the downloadspeed, at the time of writing, is a whopping 0.0 kB/s), maybe I'll put together a few little examples of how these violins sound in combination with other reverbs and/or spatialization software.

_


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## jamwerks (Sep 17, 2012)

I have a feeling that DS without Mir Pro wouldn't be the same. So the package goes up to 1190 euros (DS + MP 24).

Interesting that they want you to buy the whole thing upfront, with the other instruments coming later.

I'll have to hear some DS totally naked. I still seem to still hear the footprint of the Silent Stage, but the engineering-sound may be a bit better (imo) here than in previous VSL stuff. Had this thing been recorded at EW studios (or even at Sony or Air), there would have been 10 times more interest.

I guess no sordino articulations will ever be done in DS either...


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 18, 2012)

Looking forward to your stuff, Piet.



jamwerks @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> Had this thing been recorded at EW studios (or even at Sony or Air), there would have been 10 times more interest.



I dunno about that. There are now several very good libraries recorded in ambient spaces, and at least one more to come (CineStrings) - this is different and different is good. The selling points it seems to me are the detail, and the ability to use legato on very fast passages, neither of which would be possible on an ambient stage. I like ambient, ambient is very popular, but it really isn't the only way to go, not least because there are significant disadvantages to that method that, to my mind at least, haven't been fully overcome.

All that said, it's unlikely I'll go for it because of the lack of some really useful and intelligent auto patches - shame, cos that discount is huge and the final price will stay. I'm kinda surprised actually - if this has taken them 4 years, I'm amazed that they haven't figured out that people do need something playable and fast these days, at least as an option. They had a shot at the next generation thing here, and I guess they still could do it - but it feels too much like a stab in the dark right now to back this horse in the hope that, one day, they'll address it. Oh yeah, and without having heard violas, cellos and basses!

As for MIR - it would take something pretty hefty to match the sound in the demo video I think. It's the stage placement across all 8 instruments that seems convincing - I imagine that naked it sounds very flat.


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## jamwerks (Sep 18, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> There are now several very good libraries recorded in ambient spaces, and at least one more to come (CineStrings) - this is different and different is good. The selling points it seems to me are the detail, and the ability to use legato on very fast passages, neither of which would be possible on an ambient stage. I like ambient, ambient is very popular, but it really isn't the only way to go,.



Though I love the sound of Spitfire (At Air) and CS (at Sony), I have a feeling that the "best" space for recording orchestral samples might be at EW (formally Cello) studios. The recordings there seem to have all the advantages: the close mics sound dry (very little room info captured) yet not "squeezed and closet like", and with other more distant mic, the beauty of the room is apparent, fast legatos seem to record well there also, and even more space can then be added by convolution.

I'll be interested to hear the sound of these samples naked, since MP and other convolution reverbs have only that to work with.

Not to forget that with DS, you also have a library of (multiple) solo strings, to eventually mix with other libraries. I don't know it I'd want this as my only string library, but as a 2nd or 3rd definitely.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 18, 2012)

Yes, the LASS stage (whatever that is) is a good best-of-both-worlds one too. Still, purely on the basis of this demo video, I think the fast legato performance would exceed even LASS.


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## paulcole (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> You don't need MIR. (Jack won't agree, but to this day, the DS demo included, I haven't heard MIR do anything which makes me say: "Wow, I need to have that.")
> 
> Anyway, once I've downoaded and installed the DS, and have learned how to use them (which might take a while, especially as the downloadspeed, at the time of writing, is a whopping 0.0 kB/s), maybe I'll put together a few little examples of how these violins sound in combination with other reverbs and/or spatialization software.
> 
> _



Hi Piet. What do you think of the sound? I just watched the video with Paul Steiner and am impressed. Didn't think I would be but I was. Does this library come with the full sections of violas, cellos & basses? It didn't make it that clear, or at least I missed it if it did. What reverb would you be using with this library Piet? 

Paul


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## jamwerks (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah it wasn't that clear in the videos. From what I understand, DS is really a collection of 24 soloists. The full sections patches just play those 8 solo violinist all together.

But they say all 8 violinist were recorded at the same time, just with different mics. I'm not sure how that is possible. Each individual violin sample then must have some leakage from the others, if they are in the same space (which isn't necessarily bad).


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## re-peat (Sep 18, 2012)

paulcole @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> (...) What do you think of the sound? (...)


Paul, I'm still downloading, I'm afraid. And it looks like it might be a while too, because, apparently, there's a bit of server trouble over at VSL's at the moment. Should get sorted shortly, but until then, things are arriving rather slowly.

As for reverb, the first combination I will try out, is going to be DS+SPAT.

_


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## paulcole (Sep 18, 2012)

jamwerks @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> Yeah it wasn't that clear in the videos. From what I understand, DS is really a collection of 24 soloists. The full sections patches just play those 8 solo violinist all together.
> 
> But they say all 8 violinist were recorded at the same time, just with different mics. I'm not sure how that is possible. Each individual violin sample then must have some leakage from the others, if they are in the same space (which isn't necessarily bad).



You will inevitably get some leakage/bleed, but that's probably a good thing. The implementation of the divisi idea looks good on the video. The idea of divisi has been around for quite a while vis a vi samples, but the interesting thing is the implementation of different vibrato/cross fading ect ect, giving into the possibilities of many different combinations; and as stated on the video, a chance of your own unique sound. 

There are issues I would like to know, such as what reverb will work well and so on. And what do the violas sound like. And cellos.


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## organix (Sep 18, 2012)

DS seems on a very high technical level. It remembers me at some points on DVZ Strings. 
But that very high technical approach isn't heard in terms of sonic quality. I'm really disappointed by the sound. Would have expected more.

To my ears it sounds very technical and emotionless. 

Maybe some better demos later will show more sonic quality.


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## jamwerks (Sep 18, 2012)

organix @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> DS seems on a very high technical level. It remembers me at some points on DVZ Strings.
> But that very high technical approach isn't heard in terms of sonic quality. I'm really disappointed by the sound. Would have expected more.
> 
> To my ears it sounds very technical and emotionless.
> ...



We've often spoke here about overdubbing a solo violinist on 14 takes, isn't at all the same as recording 14 violinist at once.

With DS, you're really getting the multiple soloist sound, which isn't as "lush" as the group. Layering in a chamber section from their library of the same name might give it more of a group sound.


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## Arbee (Sep 18, 2012)

I guess in all honesty I was hoping for a slightly different product, i.e. a larger and cohesive layered section that could build from solo(first chair)>chamber>orchestral>appassionata desk by desk (a la LASS) rather than 8 individual violins configured 8x1, 1x8, 4x2, 2x4. I guess this may have made the existing libraries somewhat redundant but would have really nailed it for me. From the sound of DS on this first demo it will probably layer well with the solo and chamber libraries (and easy to do with VI Pro 2) so keen to hear what other demos come forth. Otherwise I love the concept and I'm in....


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## Daryl (Sep 18, 2012)

jamwerks @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> organix @ Tue Sep 18 said:
> 
> 
> > DS seems on a very high technical level. It remembers me at some points on DVZ Strings.
> ...


The difference with DS is that all the payers were recorded at the same time, AFAIK, so it will be much closer to a full section sound than 8 soloists, although I agree that it won't sound the same (as LASS doesn't either, (FWIW).

However, I haven't really been able to tell anything yet from the demos, so I could be wrong.

As an aside, I find that overdubbing 6 players doesn't sound much different from a section, but adding more makes not a lot of difference. For me, 6 is the magic number.

D


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## JPQ (Sep 18, 2012)

Somehow i think this sounds tv serie music  and there is something which i dont like and something what i like. What i mean i dont have words.


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## Goran (Sep 18, 2012)

The sound of the video demo is phenomenal - here I have to disagree with each and every point Jose and others have made. I can't even begin to imagine what will be possible when DS is combined with other VSL string libraries (first and foremost orchestral strings and appassionatas) and MIR. You could get some pretty amazing results already by skillfully combining solo strings with orchestral strings and appasionatas, but this will take the possibilites of shaping the sound of string sections on a whole new level.


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## Waywyn (Sep 18, 2012)

I think I like it so far!
Why did I say think? To be honest it seems like the first time EVER that a string library is able to react as players do. They constantly tune and listen to each other and it seems that this is now possible with this library!

The other thing I am still unsure about is how it works when I run my hands on it!
I will definitely keep an eye on it. However to be honest, say what you will, but I just love (especially since the upgrade) how musical Adagio sounds by just playing the lib without doing anything.

BUT, I think it is wrong to compare these two libs even though they are both string libraries, since each of the concepts are totally unique!


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## adg21 (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> You don't need MIR. (Jack won't agree, but to this day, the DS demo included, I haven't heard MIR do anything which makes me say: "Wow, I need to have that.")
> 
> Anyway, once I've downoaded and installed the DS, and have learned how to use them (which might take a while, especially as the downloadspeed, at the time of writing, is a whopping 0.0 kB/s), maybe I'll put together a few little examples of how these violins sound in combination with other reverbs and/or spatialization software.
> 
> _



I very much look forward to this, you might be the only one as not many people have said they're rushing out to buy it so please please do if you get the time...


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## José Herring (Sep 18, 2012)

Goran @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> The sound of the video demo is phenomenal - here I have to disagree with each and every point Jose and others have made. I can't even begin to imagine what will be possible when DS is combined with other VSL string libraries (first and foremost orchestral strings and appassionatas) and MIR. You could get some pretty amazing results already by skillfully combining solo strings with orchestral strings and appasionatas, but this will take the possibilites of shaping the sound of string sections on a whole new level.



I made my points based off of the mp3 demo. I haven't seen the video yet. I'll check out the video demo today and maybe I'll think differently. But based off of the sound of the audio demo, meh, I give the library a 5 out of 10. :lol:

I'm actually shocked that people are raving about it. There really is a point about half way through the audio demo where the violins don't even sound remotely like violins. Not even a little bit. Does nobody hear that? It does good up high and it does good with fast legato. Probably the best I've heard, but the bread and butter is in the middle register of the violin while doing sustains. If that isn't good then it's not good.


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## Daryl (Sep 18, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> Goran @ Tue Sep 18 said:
> 
> 
> > The sound of the video demo is phenomenal - here I have to disagree with each and every point Jose and others have made. I can't even begin to imagine what will be possible when DS is combined with other VSL string libraries (first and foremost orchestral strings and appassionatas) and MIR. You could get some pretty amazing results already by skillfully combining solo strings with orchestral strings and appasionatas, but this will take the possibilites of shaping the sound of string sections on a whole new level.
> ...


Do check the video out, because a lot of things are explained.

D


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## jamwerks (Sep 18, 2012)

It'll be interesting to hear what the instruments sound like totally dry. In the video presentation, when playing a solo violin, I don't hear any bleed from the other instruments, so I don't understand how they could have been recorded all together. 

And of course if there was bleed, that would prevent from using them alone, as you would hear the others in the backround.

If they really recorded all together in that smallish Silent Stage, it must have been divided acoustically in separate spaces, which doesn't seem possible either for many reasons.

Maybe VSL will chime in on how it was really done....


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat lifts the corner of the hood of his monk's habit and intones:


> You don't need MIR. (Jack won't agree, but to this day, the DS demo included, I haven't heard MIR do anything which makes me say: "Wow, I need to have that.")


Actually, I don't know what will be necessary on DS. Don't have it yet but will soon. Certainly MIR, SPAT, B2 and oblique permutations of these will be required first efforts here. Maybe even (shudder) an insert of Transient Designer to tame the close mics. (Why isn't there one of these in Vienna Suite?)

If its anything like other VSL products I'll be happily learning new tricks for years to come. 

I would say if there's anything I don't like about the sound stage of the demo is this specific choice of MIR venue and its settings. If there is anything I don't like about the sound of the strings is the player themselves. If VSL had been miraculously transplanted to LA this product (and the recorded Venues of MIR) would sound significantly different. 

I feel the same about the Sample Modeling trumpet. Don't like the player. I think it makes all the difference. I don't want to hear anything about it would sound the same with any good player since it's an anechoic chamber. There are a dozen great players in LA that would have made The Trumpet a much better product. But having said this, still Sample Modeling brass has become an important part of my template as of late. (Thanks go out to Daryl and Blakus for their online input on this matter.) 

DS is a smaller size ensemble - made even apparently smaller by its great detail and etched sound. For soaring, lyric thematic lines I look forward to layering it with (perhaps) CS2 or Loegria. As much as I like LASS I think it might have too much detail to round out and calm down DS. But CS2 and Loegria would seem to greatly benefit from DS's liveliness and etched sound. Mixing it with Loegria's con sordino and flautando will be interesting experiments. Oh yeah, HS's 2nd Vln flautando might work well with it also. 

Looking forward to getting DS. Template upgrade on the way. 

.


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## José Herring (Sep 18, 2012)

Daryl @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Sep 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Goran @ Tue Sep 18 said:
> ...



Watched it. Very nice expression wise. Not 100% sold on the sound. But, I can see the appeal. Pretty amazing expressively.


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## dcoscina (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm a huge advocate of VSL products. I own a ton of them. But yeah, I have to agree with Jose that the sound in the demo leaves a lot to e desired. I have Dimension Brass and I know I'm not even skimming the surface of its power but I end up going to CineBrass for those needs.... I think DB is perhaps a little bit too convoluted but I guess that's my problem (and laziness) not VSL's.


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## benmrx (Sep 18, 2012)

Just watched the video. That's a pretty intense amount of control over the violins. I'm still a sole Kontakt user though, and that VIPro interface looks... well.... like I might need to get a physics degree first


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## Gusfmm (Sep 18, 2012)

Quite frankly, VIP is not that convoluted if you spend a few moments understanding the reason behind its controls and design. There is a huge amount of power under the hood, so to speak.

And in fact, in my opinion, one of the core strenghts in VSL that situates their libraries a considerable notch above everything else in the market, whether or not you like their tone or not, is Vienna Player Pro. There is so much you can do with relative ease and so much flexibility to execute playing articulation combinations in a way others are trying to replicate with actual sampling techniques that may or not work in all cases. I don't have to commit to anybody's design, I decide how I want things to sound, with VIP enablement.

On the contrasting side, for those of us who extensively use VSL and have programmed more complex VIP instrument matrixes and templates, there seems to be a daunting amount of effort that will be required to design similar templates for DS, due to the individual players within each actual instrument. Necessary evil though. Very exciting!


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## Daryl (Sep 18, 2012)

benmrx @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> Just watched the video. That's a pretty intense amount of control over the violins. I'm still a sole Kontakt user though, and that VIPro interface looks... well.... like I might need to get a physics degree first


The beauty of VI Pro is that you can make it complicated or simple. Your choice. Looking at the video, you could work with one MIDI track and feed the same signal to all 8 violins, but change the tuning and timing of each one using VI Pros built in features, so that you would still get some of the benefits. Or you could go the whole hog and control each instrument individually.

For me, if I was going to go down the road of doing each instrument individually, I would probably just play them on my violin instead, which would be quicker, and it would sound much better. :wink: 

D


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 18, 2012)

I did not like the demo sound too much either. My previous post was based purely on the video which I think sounded really good. 

What is holding me back is that I only have MIR 24 and this needs more.


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## paulcole (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> paulcole @ Tue Sep 18 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) What do you think of the sound? (...)
> ...



Great Piet. 

Any joy thus far on the sound trial?


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## benmrx (Sep 18, 2012)

@Gusfmm and @Daryl,

Oh I get it! With so many options comes a great deal of expressive control over your sound, which I love. And the fact that you can make as simple or complex as possible. But still, coming from the land of Kontakt it just looks a tad overwhelming. Not that I would ever let that stop me.., just making (an extremely obvious) observation


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## Saxer (Sep 18, 2012)

vi pro is much easier to handle than kontakt. just have a look at the tutorial videos and play around a few hours. especially the humanize features makes the "wow"- effect.


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## Waywyn (Sep 18, 2012)

Saxer @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> vi pro is much easier to handle than kontakt. just have a look at the tutorial videos and play around a few hours. especially the humanize features makes the "wow"- effect.



I think it is a bit unfair to compare those two.
While VSL perfectly aims for their own samples and VSL content, Kontakt is a versatile universal sampler which allows to code awesome and appropriate GUIs tailored for the developers needs.

I am not a coding expert and to me the Kontakt programming language is like reading an egyptian book backwards (the ones from 3000 years ago ) ... but I would lean out of the window a bit and say that even Kontakt would be able to host a humanizing feature like the VSL instruments.

But I agree, for what the VSL Instruments Pro was created for, it is pretty awesome!


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## Saxer (Sep 18, 2012)

yepp alex, i think you know what i mean... kontakt has much more possibilities than vi pro and there are libraries with fantastic guis, no question.

but i really think with vi pro and a vsl library you are much faster in stacking, tuning, humanizing, setting key switches, crossfading, changing envelopes etc, and much easier than with any other library in kontakt.
kontakt is a great tool for developers and great to handle in the way developers recommend it. for further ideas you have to go very deep into kontakts engine with all possibilities of a developer. vi pro doesn't go that deep but has most of the needful parameters for orchestral instruments under easy control.


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## Waywyn (Sep 18, 2012)

Saxer @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> yepp alex, i think you know what i mean... kontakt has much more possibilities than vi pro and there are libraries with fantastic guis, no question.
> 
> but i really think with vi pro and a vsl library you are much faster in stacking, tuning, humanizing, setting key switches, crossfading, changing envelopes etc, and much easier than with any other library in kontakt.
> kontakt is a great tool for developers and great to handle in the way developers recommend it. for further ideas you have to go very deep into kontakts engine with all possibilities of a developer. vi pro doesn't go that deep but has most of the needful parameters for orchestral instruments under easy control.



Yes sure, I totally understand you ... but you have to be aware that a library designed for Kontakt (and a developer who would have wanted humanizing features and all this) would have implemented it into his product, the same as VSL did for theirs. The difference is, that VSL Instruments are for VSL stuff only ... if e.g. 8Dio or Cinesamples (or whoever) would release an update for strings or brass and they wanted these features, they would have made sure to have these features available as easy as VSL did to their customers.

However, I totally agree with you. Since noone so far designed a library for Kontakt with these features you would be forced to dig down deep into the engine!


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## Goran (Sep 18, 2012)

Saxer @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> but i really think with vi pro and a vsl library you are much faster in stacking, tuning, humanizing, setting key switches, crossfading, changing envelopes etc, and much easier than with any other library in kontakt.
> kontakt is a great tool for developers and great to handle in the way developers recommend it. for further ideas you have to go very deep into kontakts engine with all possibilities of a developer. vi pro doesn't go that deep but has most of the needful parameters for orchestral instruments under easy control.



sure, if you want/need to utilize the full power of what kontakt has to offer. nevertheless, working with vi pro has (at least in my experience) a learning curve which is definitely less steep then the curves for kontakt-powered libraries (have just finished the first production using NI SSP, an there is no comparison) - but it is worth it. deciding to invest some time into a serious exploration of the possibilities of vi pro and fine-tuning them to my purposes was definitely one of the more farsighted decisions i made in the last few years.


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## re-peat (Sep 18, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> (...) Don't like the player. (...)


Interesting. I happen to think the exact opposite: I’m quite relieved that they _didn’t_ choose players who might have brought more character and panache to the performances. Because: 'character', when sampled, inevitably becomes a mannerism. And mannerisms quickly and unavoidably start to irritate.
(Which is, in fact, the very reason why LASS, despite being truly excellent and useful, never really manages to inspire me. I rate LASS tremendously highly, and I’d love to love it, but I find its performance — as captured in the samples —, just a bit too character-ful, and thus mannered. Stunning as those spiccati and staccati can sound, after a while their over-enthusiastic, snappy and muscled articulation simply starts to become a bit tiresome to my ears. It's comparable to those early “authentic” Baroque performances on so-called period instruments, from a few decades ago: while they sounded very fresh, alive and sparkly at the time, most of them haven’t aged all that well, I find.)

So, along the same lines: The Trumpet derived from performances by a more characterful player, would, in my opinion, make for a much poorer virtual instrument. Some details might come out sounding a little bit better, perhaps, but on the whole, it would certainly be a less versatile trumpet emulation. The Trumpet, as it is, is capable of a lot of widely different things (and all quite convincing), a more characterful instrument on the other hand, would be capable of much less.
If there's too much personality in the sound (or the captured/sampled/modeled performance) of a virtual instrument, it narrows the range of its most idiomatic use(s), thereby lessening the possibilities.

But back to the Dimension Strings: the chief reasons I picked this up are weight and colour. (Both are very much related of course.) And those great-sounding pizzicati as well. So, amongst my reasons for picking this up are such elements as weight, colour and those great-sounding pizzicati. 

Weight, because I've about had it with big-sounding stringlibraries which always end up sitting like big wobbly puddings in my mixes. (The very reason why I had hoped for more half-section material in Loegria.)
For almost all of my music, I much prefer a smaller, dry, 'objective', un-emotional, light Apollonian stringsound (a more classical sound, I suppose), instead of the big, soaring, sweeping and passionately Dionysian widescreen-sound that many developers (and most users as well, it appears) seem to be after.
The stringsound I hear in my head (and one some recordings as well) still hasn't been sampled. It's a restrained though lively, butterfly-ish, chamber-y, close-up (yet airy) sound that's crisp and detailed without sounding harsh, piercing and nasal, a sound that articulates (pronunciates) well, without exaggerating or sounding affected, and a sound that, in its sampled incarnation, pays a lot more attention to the lower dynamics than to the higher ones.

From what I’ve heard, these Dynamics Strings far from deliver that sound, but they’re certainly a step in a, for me, appealing direction. And those pizzicati, an articulation which is omni-present and pretty important in many of my arrangements, seem to sound very, very good indeed. And they have the added advantage of being almost endlessly variable: not just 3 or 4 round robins, but ever-shifting variations of a combination of 8 coherent-sounding violins. Same thing for the shorts. In fact, it’s this feature, much more than anything else, which made me push the ‘Buy’-button.

Still downloading, I’m afraid ... It’s one of those troubled, excrutiatingly slow downloads that we, occasionaly, have to sit through. (Never experienced this with VSL before, I must say.) Started early this morning, and 16 hours later, I’m still only at 62,4% … and according to the Vienna Download Manager, looking at 30 or more hours of downloading.

_


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## williemyers (Sep 18, 2012)

Winslow @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> What do you think? A little bit late for that move or just what we were waiting for?
> Cheers,
> Winslow


waiting?....we were supposed to be waiting??!?!!!?


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## stargazer (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> Weight, because I've about had it with big-sounding stringlibraries which always end up sitting like big wobbly puddings in my mixes. (The very reason why I had hoped for more half-section material in Loegria.)
> For almost all of my music, I much prefer a smaller, dry, 'objective', un-emotional, light Apollonian stringsound (a more classical sound, I suppose), instead of the big, soaring, sweeping and passionately Dionysian widescreen-sound that many developers (and most users as well, it appears) seem to be after.
> The stringsound I hear in my head (and one some recordings as well) still hasn't been sampled. It's a restrained though lively, butterfly-ish, chamber-y, close-up (yet airy) sound that's crisp and detailed without sounding harsh, piercing and nasal, a sound that articulates (pronunciates) well, without exaggerating or sounding affected, and a sound that, in its sampled incarnation, pays a lot more attention to the lower dynamics than to the higher ones.
> _


+1


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat @ Tue 18 Sep said:


> The stringsound I hear in my head (and one some recordings as well) still hasn't been sampled. It's a restrained though lively, butterfly-ish, chamber-y, close-up (yet airy) sound that's crisp and detailed without sounding harsh, piercing and nasal, a sound that articulates (pronunciates) well, without exaggerating or sounding affected, and a sound that, in its sampled incarnation, pays a lot more attention to the lower dynamics than to the higher ones.


Amen to that Piet! I fully agree.



re-peat @ Tue 18 Sep said:


> From what I’ve heard, these Dynamics Strings far from deliver that sound, but they’re certainly a step in a, for me, appealing direction.



The lower dynamics I didn't hear however, neither in the mp3 nor in the video. I didn't know what to think of the expression slider moving in the video, and not the vel xfade. I was also puzzled about the choice of MIR venue and placement. I really hope the samples sound better with another reverb config.


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## germancomponist (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> The stringsound I hear in my head (and one some recordings as well) still hasn't been sampled. It's a restrained though lively, butterfly-ish, chamber-y, close-up (yet airy) sound that's crisp and detailed without sounding harsh, piercing and nasal, a sound that articulates (pronunciates) well, without exaggerating or sounding affected, and a sound that, in its sampled incarnation, pays a lot more attention to the lower dynamics than to the higher ones.
> _



+ 100

I did thousands and more experiments by tweaking all my libs, but I never got that sound for what I am after too. And I hate it when p or pp pizzicatos and staccatos sound like gunshots.... .


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## jleckie (Sep 18, 2012)

I liked the part about the pudding.


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm very eager to try these as well, but — like Piet — I'm stuck watching the most excruciatingly slow VSL download progress bar I've ever encountered. Barely poking above 200kb/s :(

I can trust VSL to produce a tightly polished product, and for 580EUR it seems like a good investment as a layering/precision package. Can't wait to hear the cellos!


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## benmrx (Sep 18, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> I can trust VSL to produce a tightly polished product, and for 580EUR it seems like a good investment



Admittingly, this is one major aspect that's always put me off regarding VSL. I simply don't understand how the website works, what prices really are, and what software I actually need to use all the features they advertise.

For instance, with these new Dimension Strings, I see a _greyed out box_ saying 595EUR for the Standard version, then _another greyed out box_ saying 595EUR for the extended version, then an introductory offer which is *NOT greyed out* for the 'full' version for 695EUR......

So, what are people buying here? The standard, extended or full version?....and what is the price? The quote above says 580EUR? 

Also, how do you find out what the options are in the library with the standard VSL player?


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## FriFlo (Sep 18, 2012)

Hmmm, is it really that hard to read a list?


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh, sorry I should have clarified — I didn't buy from VSL, I bought it from BestService because for whatever reason they're selling it for more than 100EUR less than the already good sale from VSL's site.

The way that the VSL site pricing works is complicated, but once you understand it you'll see what's going on: their charts always show Standard, Extended, and Full columns. In terms of samples, buying Standard and then Extended is equivalent to buying the Full library at once, but buying Full from the start always offers you a discount. Some people don't need the Extended articulations though, so they buy Standard only.

So for Dimension Strings they're having this early bird sale, and the terms of the sale are that if you buy during this period, you'll get the FULL Dimension Strings (all sections, Standard+Extended) for 695EUR (on their site). They're not giving you the option of buying the separate Standard samples at this point. Once this sale is over, you'll be able to buy Standard for 595, Extended for 595, or the Full library at whatever the MSRP is.

The best way to find out what you're getting is to look at their "Sample Content" area on the info page for each library; it'll show you how articulations are distributed between Standard and Extended.


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## FriFlo (Sep 18, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> Oh, sorry I should have clarified — I didn't buy from VSL, I bought it from BestService because for whatever reason they're selling it for more than 100EUR less than the already good sale from VSL's site.



I guess you don't pay VAT for a download product in Canada, hence, the 100 difference. In Europe it is 570€ at best service as a download ...


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 18, 2012)

FriFlo @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> I guess you don't pay VAT for a download product in Canada, hence, the 100 difference...


That is correct, yes


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## benmrx (Sep 18, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 18 said:


> Oh, sorry I should have clarified — I didn't buy from VSL, I bought it from BestService because for whatever reason they're selling it for more than 100EUR less than the already good sale from VSL's site.
> 
> The way that the VSL site pricing works is complicated, but once you understand it you'll see what's going on: their charts always show Standard, Extended, and Full columns. In terms of samples, buying Standard and then Extended is equivalent to buying the Full library at once, but buying Full from the start always offers you a discount. Some people don't need the Extended articulations though, so they buy Standard only.
> 
> ...



Ah... makes more sense now. I didn't realize that the standard/extended versions simply weren't available yet. For someone that's not familiar with how their site works, it would be helpful if that was more obvious. Thanks for the info. And just so I'm clear on the VIPro player..., if I don't get it..., then I won't have all the same options as shown in the Dimension Strings video correct?



FriFlo said:


> Hmmm, is it really that hard to read a list?



classy o=<


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 18, 2012)

I like it. Covers ground not covered to date. Perfect - no. But will be useful. Me thinks SPAT and B2 is the ticket to sculpt out our sound(s) desired.

I know how to get around the Pro player but really hoping VSL spent some time putting together useful 'day to day' matrixes. I just don't have a couple days to take off right now. Of course I'll want to taylor specific to my workflow and no one gives better options for this than VSL, but just hoping for some learning curve help.

One other item - VSL - can you at least run the legatos from the other sections so we can see how they 'mesh'?


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat opined:


> Interesting. I happen to think the exact opposite:


I'm shocked! That should be your avatar. :D 

re-peat further elucidated: 


> I’m quite relieved that they didn’t choose players who might have brought more character and panache to the performances. Because: 'character', when sampled, inevitably becomes a mannerism. And mannerisms quickly and unavoidably start to irritate.


Actually, 'character' isn't what I intended to convey. Better tone, attack and range were the specific things I was looking for in the choice of instrumentalist for The Trumpet. It seemed like the instrumentalist and a lot of the keyswitched articulations were Pop/Jazz oriented. I would have hoped for more Orchestral or Cinematic for both of those. It would be nice if they created a second, separate instrument with a different player.

Just ordered DS. Having heard your story of downloading woes I might wait a few days until all is sorted out. Looking forward to straightening out for myself the tonal and ambient nature of DS - and seeing the layering possibilities. 

Rob wisely added:


> One other item - VSL - can you at least run the legatos from the other sections so we can see how they 'mesh'?


+1

.


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## Arbee (Sep 18, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Interesting. I happen to think the exact opposite: I’m quite relieved that they _didn’t_ choose players who might have brought more character and panache to the performances. Because: 'character', when sampled, inevitably becomes a mannerism. And mannerisms quickly and unavoidably start to irritate.
> (Which is, in fact, the very reason why LASS, despite being truly excellent and useful, never really manages to inspire me. I rate LASS tremendously highly, and I’d love to love it, but I find its performance — as captured in the samples —, just a bit too character-ful, and thus mannered. Stunning as those spiccati and staccati can sound, after a while their over-enthusiastic, snappy and muscled articulation simply starts to become a bit tiresome to my ears. It's comparable to those early “authentic” Baroque performances on so-called period instruments, from a few decades ago: while they sounded very fresh, alive and sparkly at the time, most of them haven’t aged all that well, I find.)
> 
> But back to the Dimension Strings: the chief reasons I picked this up are weight and colour. (Both are very much related of course.) And those great-sounding pizzicati as well. So, amongst my reasons for picking this up are such elements as weight, colour and those great-sounding pizzicati.
> ...



Thanks for articulating all of this so well..... exactly.


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## ozmorphasis (Sep 18, 2012)

definitely the best pizz I've heard from any library to date.


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## FriFlo (Sep 19, 2012)

Having listened to both video and audio demo, I think I pretty much agree with what Piet and some others said:
- the early bird price is pretty amazing - cheap for what you get
- the pizzicato is better than anything
- while this is still not "the best and only out there" I can think of many uses for DS

What I am not sure about:
- there seems to be a metallic sound - mostly on short notes and legato transitions, probably due to adding up the microphone positions + bleeding
- I think the single microphone positions don't sound great for solo use ... I would like to see how it works in combination with VSL solo strings and others
- in spite of the amount of samples (due to the different mic positions) the available articulations are nowhere as complete as e.g. solo strings - flautando, con sordino, sul ponticello, ... missing

Since I am in the middle of building a serious project studio and there seems to be no end of spending money for this, I sincerely hope the early bird price will indeed hold until somewhere in 2013 - at least until the Cellos arrive. For this price I will pick it up, as soon as I am sure about my budget.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 19, 2012)

Not positive but has anyone mentioned the possibility that VSL will have a {2nd violins} section? Then you would have your classic 16 violin section which would be very interesting in capturing the sound of individual variance among players: a sort of holy grail in sampling. Obviously they could do the same with the other string groups. The VI player could impose the variance much the way it does now which combined with sequencer 'humanize' features (on a single pass) could be a very workable or tolerable workflow situation.


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## FriFlo (Sep 19, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> As with Dimension brass, I feel that the approach though might work in theory, doesn't really work in practice. There are a few things that sound ok in that demo. The upfront shorts add some bite, the fast legatos are pretty good, but overall that thin, sound just isn't working. It's like half of the sonic information is just missing.
> 
> It would be interesting though to hear the entire section. It might work out better then. Wait and see, but I'm not holding out high hopes.



Regarding the theory, I think there is even one mistake to the theory itself here:
If you record a divisi section individually mic-ing every player the bleeding from the other voices would not be the same note, but rather the other voices . hence, impossible to sample.
Further, the individual use of solo players has bleeding, where there souldn't be any ...

Some alternativ idea: I would have preferred them to record some individual players, giving the player and conductor the takes from previous players on their haedphones. This way there would be a compromise of ensemble playing and seperation. Maybe 4 solo mics, 2x desk of three players and 1x desk of four players. I guess this would have been more expensive to do, but "in theory" it should eliminate some of the problems I mentioned.


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## paulcole (Sep 19, 2012)

Dave Connor @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Not positive but has anyone mentioned the possibility that VSL will have a {2nd violins} section? Then you would have your classic 16 violin section which would be very interesting in capturing the sound of individual variance among players: a sort of holy grail in sampling.



On the website there is a sort of interview with Herb; apparently he thinks recording 2nd violins would be a waste of time. 

Has Piet finished his download yet? :D 

What other string sections does one get with this library? For instance, what is are the sizes of the viola sections etc?


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## doubleattack (Sep 19, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Tue 18 Sep said:


> Just ordered DS. Having heard your story of downloading woes I might wait a few days until all is sorted out.



The last statement by Paul from VSL (scroll down):

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/331 ... ageIndex=2


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## Daryl (Sep 19, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> What other string sections does one get with this library? For instance, what is are the sizes of the viola sections etc?



"Four string sections of 8 violins, 6 violas, 6 cellos, and 4 double basses."

D


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## organix (Sep 19, 2012)

Waywyn @ 18th September said:


> However to be honest, say what you will, but I just love (especially since the upgrade) how musical Adagio sounds by just playing the lib without doing anything.
> 
> BUT, I think it is wrong to compare these two libs even though they are both string libraries, since each of the concepts are totally unique!



Adagio and Dimension Strings are maybe different as their makers, Foelman and Herb. :D 

Adagio lives and consists of imperfection, noises, dust, inaccuracies, many emotions and maybe that so called deep sampling.

VSL DS on the other side seems to be perfect, clean, accurate, huge, complex and falls into the existing sound of VSL libs.

These two Libs have only one thing in common, they are both called Strings Library.  


I'm more of a person who would like these imperfect and slurry sound of Adagio. o/~ 

Markus


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## Daryl (Sep 19, 2012)

organix @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Waywyn @ 18th September said:
> 
> 
> > However to be honest, say what you will, but I just love (especially since the upgrade) how musical Adagio sounds by just playing the lib without doing anything.
> ...


And that's the beauty of DS. You can have precise or not. Your choice, and you can even change your mind mid note, if you like. :lol: 

D


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## Dave Connor (Sep 19, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Dave Connor @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Not positive but has anyone mentioned the possibility that VSL will have a {2nd violins} section?...
> ...



Oh didn't see that. That's what herb said when they released their first string library. People were complaining for the next 10 years.


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## tabulius (Sep 19, 2012)

After hearing the demos, I'm happy with my Adagio Strings purchase.


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## antoniopandrade (Sep 19, 2012)

The flexibility of this approach is truly exciting. But I can't get around the sound of the VSL longs. Perhaps with some smart EQ'ing this library can be sculpted to be a little less nasal sounding. I do however appreciate VSL pushing the envelope and I love that they aren't going for "epic" strings, and focusing on the more chamber-sized ensemble.


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## jamwerks (Sep 19, 2012)

antoniopandrade @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> But I can't get around the sound of the VSL longs. Perhaps with some smart EQ'ing this library can be sculpted to be a little less nasal sounding.



I've tried eq-ing other VSL libraries, and that nasal quality is impossible to get rid of imo. :shock:


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## re-peat (Sep 19, 2012)

Okay, we're in business.

Took some patience and effort though: 
(1) Watching the Vienna Downloader going as slowly as it did, just made me loose the will to live, so halfway through, I switched to manually downloading all the CAB-files instead, via links which VSL kindly and swiftly provided, and from then on, things went substantially faster (though still not reaching speeds that I had hoped for). 
(2) Once the download had finally finished, I learned that the Dimension Strings need the latest version of the VIPro, and this software, in turn, requires OSX 10.6.8 (or later) which I wasn't running. (I was still on 10.6.5 until an hour ago.) So I had to do an OS-upgrade, after which I could install the most recent version of VIPro and then, finally, the library itself.
(3) This last installation also requires a serious bit of time. The entire download weighs about 34gig, but expands to 61,37gig after installation. (Something to keep in mind: if the other sections are of a comparable size — which they definitely won't be, as none of them consist of 8 instruments and probably aren't as extensively sampled as the violins either —, the complete Dimension Strings library might well end up being somewhere between 150 and 200gig.)

Anyway, the tedious part is over with. Let's discover now what these violins can do and how they sound doing it. 
(A first, quick browse through some of the patches sounds very promising.)

_


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## Daryl (Sep 19, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Okay, we're in business.
> 
> Took some patience and effort though:
> (1) Watching the Vienna Downloader going as slowly as it did, just made me loose the will to live, so halfway through, I switched to manually downloading all the CAB-files instead, via links which VSL kindly and swiftly provided, and from then on, things went substantially faster (though still not reaching speeds that I had hoped for).
> ...


After around 8 hours, I'm still on 16% and 77kb/s download speed. :cry: 

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 19, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, we're in business.
> ...



It might be quicker for you to drive to Vienna and pick it up


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## Daryl (Sep 19, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > After around 8 hours, I'm still on 16% and 77kb/s download speed. :cry:
> ...


Actually, that's true. If I caught a plane I could be there and back by this time tomorrow. If I didn't have sessions all day, that is. o/~ 

D


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## paulcole (Sep 19, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > What other string sections does one get with this library? For instance, what is are the sizes of the viola sections etc?
> ...



OK thanks Daryl. Excellent.

Quite small sections but I guess that may well be a good thing on this one. Let us know what you think of the sound when you get a chance.


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## paulcole (Sep 19, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > What other string sections does one get with this library? For instance, what is are the sizes of the viola sections etc?
> ...



OK thanks Daryl. Excellent.

Quite small sections but I guess that may well be a good thing on this one. Let us know what you think of the sound when you get a chance.


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## paulcole (Sep 19, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Okay, we're in business.
> 
> The entire download weighs about 34gig, but expands to 61,37gig after installation. (Something to keep in mind: if the other sections are of a comparable size — which they definitely won't be, as none of them consist of 8 instruments and probably aren't as extensively sampled as the violins either —, the complete Dimension Strings library might well end up being somewhere between 150 and 200gig.)
> 
> ...



Hahah! "Weighs' I love it. 8) 

200 gigs is huge. Is this just the violins you've downloaded or the whole deal Piet?


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## Daryl (Sep 19, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> ...


I would say TV sized, would be a good description.

For comparison, the BBC Concert Orchestra is 10.8.6.6.4 as far as I remember, so only the 1st Violins are a bit smaller (assuming you just do a bit of clever trickery to get 2nds).

D


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## José Herring (Sep 19, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> ...



Tv and records where the full symphony orchestra still sounds out of place.


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## re-peat (Sep 19, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Is this just the violins you've downloaded or the whole deal Piet?


Just the violins, Paul. The other three sections are still in the making, I believe.

Re: the number of players: a solution to increase their number (and to simulate 1st and 2nd sections), would be to use the 4 desks (of two players each) as the 1st Violins (or some other combination that gives you the desired number of players), and then use the ensemble (another 8 players) as the 2nd Violins. And, RAM and system resources permitting, you could even add a couple of solo violins to each of those sections, should you like.

All this to say, the Dimension Strings come in a pretty flexible setup: 8 solo violins, 4 desks (2 players per desk), 2 groups (of 4 players each) and 1 ensemble (8 players). That's a whole lot of possibilities. And maybe therein lies the reason why VSL didn't feel the need to record an actual 2nd Violin section. (I haven't watched the Herb-interview, so I might be wrong with this last assumption.)

_


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 19, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Is this just the violins you've downloaded or the whole deal Piet?
> ...



But don't you run into phasing possibilities there? If the desks and ensemble are just mixes of the individual mics, then they would partly phase if the same note is played - ditto adding a solo violin to an ensemble (or a desk which contains that mic). AFAIK you can only avoid this by using the trick of shifting the samples - so, say, a 2nd violin's C is actually C# pitch shifted down a semitone. So it's impossible for two notes of a properly designed 2nd violin patch to phase with a first. Don't see how you can avoid it with Dimension, unless I'm missing something (entirely probable).


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## re-peat (Sep 19, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> But don't you run into phasing possibilities there?


Could be. I'll check it out and see if it works or not. I have a strong feeling it will work though, because one of the advantages of splitting the ensemble up in small sections, even individual players, is the ability to off-set, randomize and humanize all of these 'cells', thus minimizing the risk that they might phase. 

But, I might well be wrong, I'll let you know how it goes.

_


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## dcoscina (Sep 19, 2012)

I'm still quite surprised at my own reaction to this library. I'm a huge advocate of all things VSL but even after watching the video, I don't hear anything that makes me want to reach for my wallet to increase my debt ratio....


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 19, 2012)

Meanwhile, the Vienna pipes are still clogged for me...made it to 50% and I've been downloading all day/night.

Sent them an email to see if they might offer me the same workaround.


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## benmrx (Sep 19, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > But don't you run into phasing possibilities there?
> ...



Please do! I'm seriously looking at this as my first VSL instrument, and would want to jump in before the early bird special goes away. This is almost exactly what I've been waiting for. Something similar to LASS's building block approach, but with smaller sections. I've fallen in love with Loegria's half sections, and I just think it's closer to the sound I hear in my head.

Also, has anyone heard anything on when the other sections will be available?


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## quantum7 (Sep 19, 2012)

> It might be quicker for you to drive to Vienna and pick it up



LMAO  

Is it just me, or does that GUI look horrible? My eyes tired of it by the end of the video.


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## paulcole (Sep 19, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Is this just the violins you've downloaded or the whole deal Piet?
> ...



Excellent info as always Piet. Still waiting on the sound from you chaps.

Re: Herbs interview. I grabbed this from their site to save time.


*Do you plan to release a package with second violins?*


_Especially with Vienna Dimension Strings, recording a second violin ensemble would definitely be a wasted effort. Creating different timbres with one ensemble is so easy to achieve, and there are even more than just two possible variations. The determining factor is the balance within the group. Depending on which instruments are emphasized, the overall sound and also the playing characteristics will change. When used in combination with Vienna MIR PRO or MIR PRO 24, this effect can be quickly achieved by changing the players’ positions. Usually, all players are placed in depth and the first desk is situated much closer to the main microphone than the last desk in the back. Moving the first desk to the back and all other players one position forward will do the job and you get another timbre, for example._


My initial worry would be phasing as Guy mentioned, but any trickery on how to avoid that would probably be greatly welcome.


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## doubleattack (Sep 19, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Wed 19 Sep said:


> Meanwhile, the Vienna pipes are still clogged for me...made it to 50% and I've been downloading all day/night.
> 
> Sent them an email to see if they might offer me the same workaround.



Should be the best, even in europe itself the download over vsl-downloadmanager last 10 h (1 1/2 day ago) and went 200 kB/s and max 1,2 kB/s. Right now in face of this run it's totally down I suppose... :wink:


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## Bernard Quatermass (Sep 19, 2012)

quantum7 @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> > It might be quicker for you to drive to Vienna and pick it up
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats because the video definition is crap. Its like 240 or 380p. Should be 720 or 1080.


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## Erik (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi,

Maybe interesting: Best Service offers DS on a USB stick (!!) for the regular € 695. Just to inform those in Europe who don't want to download this product, apparently during 3 days. Usual shipping/sending is via UPS, so quite fast (maybe faster than via the VSL server). You'll have a nice backup also.

Download via Best Service is € 670 btw. Both prices incl. VAT.

Search on _dimension_ in the textbox, it isn't mentioned in the VSL list yet.


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## rgames (Sep 19, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > But don't you run into phasing possibilities there?
> ...


My thinking is that it shouldn't be as much of a problem if you use something like MIR because the audio is processed before it is mixed.

rgames


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## Arbee (Sep 19, 2012)

Based on the download experiences here, I've purchased but might wait a few days to download. I guess they are perhaps vicitims of their own success.

In regard to the "nasal" tone I know what you mean but to my ears most string libraries have a colour of one sort or another that you either like or don't. I do find myself EQing out a few mids somewhere with most VSL strings (and MIR).

I'm also unclear if the solo and group sections are different recordings or just mixes. I'd be surprised if second violins or expanded first violins wasn't considered in the design since the viola, cello and bass numbers are relatively high. With the number of available articulations it is probably also quite feasible to layer them (e.g. mix 8 non-vib with 8 prog vib articulations for 16 viollins).

One of the things I'm most excited about with DS is the ability to articulate inner moving parts (e.g. the ability to force one string legato). While I love, love, love the sound of the Albions, the high/low concept and only one (albeit beautiful) room sound makes them too limiting for me. I love to hear expressive inner moving parts and for that I need separate sections, not just high/low. If I just need a pad, IMHO there are many other alternatives these days for interesting colour than homogenised strings.

I think the biggest challenge for VSL is how many users are prepared to invest the big but rewarding time and effort to learn VI Pro/MIR and trawl through the rather overwhelming sample possibilities to create their own presets. Hopefully VSL will start to bundle more quick start presets as time goes on. To me, the benefit is that I can evolve from sketch to finished product within the one environment.


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 19, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > What other string sections does one get with this library? For instance, what is are the sizes of the viola sections etc?
> ...



These four sections by size pretty much match LASS C ensembles, and can also be used to work with LASS B and A ensembles. This is the full program not light. Consequently, those who have both will have quite the divisi opportunities. 

http://soniccontrol.tv/2009/07/31/lass-part-1/


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 19, 2012)

arbee said:


> I'm also unclear if the solo and group sections are different recordings or just mixes.


I wonder if in this case that question is a 'difference without a distinction'. VSL hasn't yet disclosed any picture of the micing setup - but it could be that since they had 8 mics on 8 players that besides busing the 8 individual mics directly to recording channels they probably also could bus the same mics in groups of 2, 4 and 8. Seems like the most economical way of creating all those articulations. 
I don't hear much leakage or phase issues with the individual mics (caveat once again - I don't have my copy yet). VSL is filled with smart, talented people and both mic placement and post processing is excellent. Dimension Brass has a bit of leakage that I'm not hearing yet on the individual mics in the video. 

he also said:


> I think the biggest challenge for VSL is how many users are prepared to invest the big but rewarding time and effort to learn VI Pro/MIR and trawl through the rather overwhelming possibilities to create


There is a precedent here. Do you have LASS with ARC? That experience was mind-bending at first. Seems like most of us lived through it and were happy with the results. 

and...:


> Hopefully VSL will start to bundle more quick start presets as time goes on.


Yup, but since like you I've purchased but am waiting to download until all the pioneers 'pull the arrows out of their backs', I don't really know if what they have already offered might be just what we want. I'm going to wait to complain on this one. But complain I will if their presets are not matching usability needs.

he also said:


> One of the things I'm most excited about with DS is the ability to articulate inner moving parts (e.g. the ability to force one string legato). While I love, love, love the sound of the Albions, the high/low concept and only one (albeit beautiful) room sound makes them too limiting for me.


I look forward to layering the bigger, thematic lines with Loegria strings. The detail and liveliness of DS should balance them well. Besides the Loegria library will be a good source for flautando and harmonics for DS. Since.... well, you know.... :oops: 

.


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## Arbee (Sep 19, 2012)

No, I don't have LASS. I've come close many times to buying it but have been hanging out to see what VSL came up with next. DS may do it for me, perhaps layered with other VSL libraries, we'll see. 

Since starting out again last year after many years away (my "middle life composing rebirth"  ) I've become very comfortable with the flexibility of VSL/VI Pro/MIR/Vienna Suite plus Sample Modelling for most of my orchestral needs and keen to avoid too many simultaneous vertical learning curves at this stage.


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## Saxer (Sep 20, 2012)

loading since 16 hours... 18% done. but still two days and 19 hours to go... yawn. gonna try it on sunday...


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## Rob (Sep 20, 2012)

dcoscina @ 19th September 2012 said:


> I'm still quite surprised at my own reaction to this library. I'm a huge advocate of all things VSL but even after watching the video, I don't hear anything that makes me want to reach for my wallet to increase my debt ratio....



+1


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Sep 20, 2012)

Love the feeling, the individual feeling in the demo.

But the tone and the lack of vibrato with that "straight" sound is what would make me pass this over.

If they made a more focused Appassionata version of this it could work.


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 20, 2012)

Rob @ Thu 20 Sep said:


> dcoscina @ 19th September 2012 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still quite surprised at my own reaction to this library. I'm a huge advocate of all things VSL but even after watching the video, I don't hear anything that makes me want to reach for my wallet to increase my debt ratio....
> ...



+1 -1

I had the same reaction a few years ago with the older VSL libs, until Guy Bacos started doing demos and I found the work of Amit Poznansky. I'll wait a bit until more demos are released.

Poznansky is doing quite well by the way. He did the soundtrack for Footnote, that won the Best Screenplay Award at the 2011 Cannes Film Festival. The soundtrack is here: http://open.spotify.com/track/5gxuHmH9Bf1tDU2fUOSxOb and here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076HJXAS/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk14 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076H ... u_dp_trk14) 

It's recorded with the Israel Philharmonic, except for the bonus track, which uses 99% VSL libs. At least that's what Amit told me on soundcloud when the file was still on there. This is one of the most brilliant VSL tracks I've ever heard. A track that should really be short listed on VSL's site, I think.

Back on topic, I can hardly wait for the early adopters' experiences.


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks to some handy direct links, I finally got these strings downloaded and spent a bit of time with them after the day's cues.

I have to say, guys, they are *superb*. The short articulations have a fantastic sense of precision and delicacy, with some unexpected bite at higher velocities, and the legatos are among the finest I've heard in sampled strings.

It's going to take hours to set up matrices and layering strategies for different situations, but I can safely say that it will be worth every moment.

Hopefully over the weekend I'll have time to put together some demo material to supplement whatever Piet and the others will have time to assemble.

Suffice it to say I am pleased with my purchase and very curious to see how the other sections turn out.

I'll post more thoughts then!


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## jamwerks (Sep 20, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> I'll post more thoughts then!


I'd enjoy hearing what some of the articulations sound like dry, to really hear the sound of the samples (what's baked in, proximity of the mics, the bleed, etc.), if you get around to it... 8)


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## benmrx (Sep 20, 2012)

I didn't see it on the VSL site, but read it elsewhere that the other sections won't be ready until 2013, can anyone here verify that?


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## clonewar (Sep 20, 2012)

benmrx @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> I didn't see it on the VSL site, but read it elsewhere that the other sections won't be ready until 2013, can anyone here verify that?



It's on the DS page on the VSL site..

"You may download the Violin Section right away from our User Area.
You’ll receive the Viola, Cello and Double Bass Sections as they become available in 2013, free of charge."


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## benmrx (Sep 20, 2012)

clonewar @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> benmrx @ Thu Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't see it on the VSL site, but read it elsewhere that the other sections won't be ready until 2013, can anyone here verify that?
> ...



Thanks! Guess I have a hard time finding _anything_ on that site  I was just hoping it would be sooner. Looking forward to hearing some user demos.


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## utopia (Sep 20, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> Thanks to some handy direct links, I finally got these strings downloaded and spent a bit of time with them after the day's cues.
> 
> I have to say, guys, they are *superb*. The short articulations have a fantastic sense of precision and delicacy, with some unexpected bite at higher velocities, and the legatos are among the finest I've heard in sampled strings.
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly you own HS gold? Would be very curious to find how they mix as I also own HS gold and am considering the purchase. Please do share your experience when you can. A short demo would be very much appreciated )


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## Malo (Sep 21, 2012)

@Mathazzar or others who have finished downloading Dimension Strings:

Could these strings be used as solo strings for sketching out string quartet arrangements? Could they even be used for solistic passages? Or is there too much leakage from the other players?

Thanks!


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## re-peat (Sep 21, 2012)

After two days with these strings, I’m afraid I’m somewhat less enthusiastic than Mathazzar seems to be. Not saying I regret the purchase, far from it (the main thing I bought it for — ever-shifting variation (see my previous post) — works perfectly), but these violins need sooooo much work before they start to generate ‘music’, that I can already predict that, in the rush of the inspired moment or with the pressure of a deadline breathing down my neck, I will undoubtedly always end up using other ‘simpler’ libraries, libraries which might not have the same depth of detail, but at least get the job done in a reasonable, realistic and sanity-preserving amount of time.
I just can’t imagine that anyone on a tight schedule, is going to be prepared to put in the time and effort — time and effort that is absolutely necessary — to get good results from Dimension Strings.

Good, even occasionally stunning, results are most certainly possible with these violins, but it’s always going to take hours and hours of finding great-sounding patch combinations, tweaking a zillion parameters, fine-tuning the programming, optimizing the balance, … Not to mention: coming up with a spatialization that makes these violins match nicely with the rest of one’s virtual orchestra. Even with MIR, this last aspect is often going to be a serious challenge, I believe.

In theory, the concept behind these strings is quite brilliant: the power and versatility of this library really is perplexing. In reality however, you find yourself laboriously programming 2 individual groups, 4 seperate desks, or, if you’re of an even more courageous disposition, 8 solo violins (or any combination of these three), and after a couple of bars, you can’t help but say to yourself, in complete exasperation: “What the bloody hell am I wasting my time here for?” 
At least, that’s the sort of feeling I’ve ended up with after trying to do some work with these violins. I haven’t even managed a single demo which I consider good enough to share — every single time, I just got completely bored with trying to make things sound good.

Sonically, the library has a few problems as well, I find. There’s a disturbing amount of stereo imaging instability (instruments jumping all over the place, an all too common flaw in many VSL libraries), the character of the different articulations could definitely be a bit more consistent/coherent — going from, say, a spiccato to a detaché or a legato sometimes sounds like you’re switching instruments, which ruins any hope of creating smooth transitions — and at higher velocities, the combined timbres of the various ‘section ingredients’ (groups, desks or solo instruments) makes for a rather-difficult-to-enjoy sound, I find. Just a single forte or fortissimo sampled violin already has a certain harsh, piercing quality to its sound — that’s only natural and to be expected — but imagine what happens if you stack eight of them on top of one another. Fingernails-scratching-down-the-blackboard, that’s what happens.

On a more positive note: this library is most definitely terrific value when it comes to adding detail, life, variation and dimension to an (existing) virtual stringssection. Combine a single DS-desk with other decently sampled strings, and you have a whole new and fresh stringsound. Add a few DS-violins spiccati to the ensemble shorts of some other library and you immediately hear an extra sense of depth in the mix. Which is nice.
And, as I hoped and already mentioned earlier on: if for nothing else, the sheer endless amount of ‘texture variation’ that can be generated with these Dimension Strings — either on its own or in combination with other libraries — makes it a very nice (though certainly not essential) thing to own.

So, in conclusion, and for the time being: after (only) two days of exploring and experimenting, to me, this library succeeds more as a 'sprinkler of fine detail & delicacies’ (Dimension & Sons Ltd., Sprinklers Of Fine Detail & Delicacies), than as a first choice, go-to workhorse-of-a-stringlibrary.

_


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 21, 2012)

Thanks Peit - extremely helpful and frank review. I personally appreciate the time you spent in review and articulating your thoughts on the matter. All the best,


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 21, 2012)

an extremely articulate review as can be expected, I wish publications came across so honestly.


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## Danny_Owen (Sep 21, 2012)

In response to Piet's observations- perhaps we have, then, come as far with sampled strings as technology will allow us without sacrificing our creativity... Further to what Vienna DS and Adagio are doing, it's very hard to imagine what anyone could possibly do differently. I expect Sample Modelling would also have control over vibrato rate, but other than that...

Thoughts on the present/future approaches to sampled strings if if they can realistically progress in a fashion that doesn't destroy the moment of creativity, anyone?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 21, 2012)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> an extremely articulate review as can be expected, I wish publications came across so honestly.



Indeed, and for once, devoid of hyperbole.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 21, 2012)

Danny_Owen @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> In response to Piet's observations- perhaps we have, then, come as far with sampled strings as technology will allow us without sacrificing our creativity... Further to what Vienna DS and Adagio are doing, it's very hard to imagine what anyone could possibly do differently. I expect Sample Modelling would also have control over vibrato rate, but other than that...
> 
> Thoughts on the present/future approaches to sampled strings if if they can realistically progress in a fashion that doesn't destroy the moment of creativity, anyone?



Maybe start a new thread on this and let this be about DVS.


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 21, 2012)

Danny_Owen @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> In response to Piet's observations- perhaps we have, then, come as far with sampled strings as technology will allow us without sacrificing our creativity... Further to what Vienna DS and Adagio are doing, it's very hard to imagine what anyone could possibly do differently. I expect Sample Modelling would also have control over vibrato rate, but other than that...
> 
> Thoughts on the present/future approaches to sampled strings if if they can realistically progress in a fashion that doesn't destroy the moment of creativity, anyone?




Honestly, 'If' - and that's a big IF - sampling modeling could ever pull off a solo string with say 80% of the expression and tone of a REAL string player - I'd pay ANY amount for that. Not kidding. Me thinks, they know that and have tried and tried again.

Totally agree on your 'moment of creativity' statement. As well as Piet's 'client's breathing down our necks' - these are the reality of the situation.


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## jamwerks (Sep 21, 2012)

As for the work-flow, I would imagine that one should best work with the a8 patches during sketching, and then copy & paste midi to the 8 solo tracks, tweek CC to taste, and serve.

Personally, I'd rather work with groups of 11, 3, & 1 (Adagio). Wanting (needing) to tweek individual players is not where music-making is at imo.


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 21, 2012)

I would love a showdown between Adagio and dimension strings. Above all I wish there was a way to try before you buy. Both libraries are so technically complex/innovative that in the end my biggest scare is if they work within my workflow.


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## dcoscina (Sep 21, 2012)

Good review. Thanks for posting Piet.


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## paulcole (Sep 21, 2012)

re-peat @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> At least, that’s the sort of feeling I’ve ended up with after trying to do some work with these violins. I haven’t even managed a single demo which I consider good enough to share — every single time, I just got completely bored with trying to make things sound good.
> _



This place would be the poorer without your input Piet. No question.

I think part of the issue is in making music in a quick and reactive manner. It's not the first time pros have brought up this point. There's editing and there's making music where technology unwittingly stifles the flow that is surely necessary in keeping things fresh.

Not one single demo? >8o


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## benmrx (Sep 21, 2012)

jamwerks @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> As for the work-flow, I would imagine that one should best work with the a8 patches during sketching, and then copy & paste midi to the 8 solo tracks, tweek CC to taste, and serve.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather work with groups of 11, 3, & 1 (Adagio). Wanting (needing) to tweek individual players is not where music-making is at imo.



One of the things I'm liking about DS is the ability to write divisi string parts. However, I already have Adagio, and I know they have a single (3 player) 'divisi' patch, but can you really use that to 'build' a full ensemble like DS (or LASS for that matter)? Won't you run into phasing issues if more than one section plays the same note? I know you could load up two patches and switch on the Violins 2 button on one of them, but that's only going to get you so far.


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## jamwerks (Sep 21, 2012)

benmrx @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> ...but can you really use that to 'build' a full ensemble like DS (or LASS for that matter)?



I'm still downloading Adagio 1.1 so I haven't tested it yet. but you could do 2 x 3-players, and 2 x 1-player with Adagio. That gives you the same 8 players as DS and the possibility to vary one of the groups for "realsim" if you'd like. But don't forget that Adagio gives you the 11 player ensemble also.

The price of DS is quite low given the number of samples, but it doubles when you add Mir Pro 24. Also, unusual for VSL to do a "buy now, download the last parts in a year", but with Adagio and CS Strings on the way, the competition is tough.


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## Saxer (Sep 21, 2012)

a new record: download rate down to 1.1kb/sec... estimated end in 23 weeks and two days. that´s mid of january 2013... maybe the violas, cellos and basses are already included then? :wink:


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## Daryl (Sep 21, 2012)

I can beat that. My download record was 0.0kb/s so I gave up and went to work instead. :( 

D


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## Saxer (Sep 21, 2012)

just recieved a mail with a new download link...

wow... 1,2 MB per second... this speeds it up a 1000 times! o-[][]-o


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## stargazer (Sep 21, 2012)

I also got this mail, but without changing to the new download link I'm at 1.4 MB/s.
I guess it was too crowded and that people now have moved to the other server...
:D


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 21, 2012)

paulcole @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> This place would be the poorer without your input Piet. No question.



Amen. Best review ever.

Dammit, I just blew the whole no-hyperbole thing. But it's worth its weight in gold. I long to read a review like this in something like Sound On Sound. It's why I nearly always trust the real feedback on the net above print media.

It sorta confirms my first thoughts actually. I wish VSL had spent another year on this library, finding ways to harness the power that they created. There are two often competing frontiers in terms of sample development I think - 1, the sound; 2 - the ease of use. Adagio and LASS's auto divisi are two examples of people trying to address both these at once. I think without making real efforts made to make things quick to work with, most composers will find libraries that offer vast complexity just gathering virtual dust.


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 21, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> paulcole @ Fri Sep 21 said:
> 
> 
> > This place would be the poorer without your input Piet. No question.
> ...



A few thoughts since you yourself are being published in other places, Guy.

1. The first reviews are forum reviews. I keep saying this, but Piet's post just continue to verifies what I've been posting.

2. The first reviews are forum reviews by people who are Innovators and buy first. Early Adopters buy SECOND, AFTER the Innovators.

3. While the Innovators are downloading and the Early Adopters are waiting to read the Innovators first postings, the press (here Sonic Control.TV and Filmmusicmag.com) are getting press releases written so as to give the developer a free ad with graphic attachments. I either don't run those or have to edit them so they at least _approach_ the journalistic integrity of a WSJ or NYT tech story. 

4. By the time a web pub gets a review copy, attitudes and perceptions are already being shaped by what's been posting. 

5. By the time a print publication gets a copy, 90% or better of the buying attitudes have been shaped.

This is why a print pub review has to be written from a different perspective then a first 48-hour review knowing that the software is going to be updated shortly.

I think your point, frankly, regarding product design of auto divisi is unfair. That may be your reality, but it's not the reality of those with excellent keyboard skills (me not being one of them!) who think it works great. 

It's fair game to say a feature doesn't work for you as long as you say why, and don't present it as an empirical finis finding for all mankind, which is how many writing forum reviews _write_.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 21, 2012)

I may be slow this morning - actually, I am DEFINITELY slow this morning - but I'm not sure I get your point, Peter? I was saying Adagio and LASS are examples of people heading in the RIGHT direction? And on the broader point of print reviews, I don't think I've ever read one that seems as rooted in the world of composer realities as Piet's. Mostly I read Sound on Sound, where often whole areas of a product which might be difficult are overlooked entirely.

I should say the caveats about web reviews, because there's obviously a lot of noise out there. But VI-C has some very wise heads with a wealth of practical experience... just really saying I value the place in general, and posts like Piet's in particular.

Right, gotta start work!


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## Daryl (Sep 22, 2012)

OK, a few points made in this thread to add my views to. I am going to attempt to install DS this weekend, if I have time, so I may be able to post a couple of examples, as I don't really have an opinion yet. Then again, I might just have a weekend off, as usual. :wink: 

1) _Phasing_. One of the reasons a String section sounds the way it does is because the players do phase with each others playing in real life. This is normal and part of the sound. So, the problem with String section sample libraries phasing is only a question of to what degree the phasing is acceptable.

2) _Working quickly with samples is important for composers._ Yes and no. Most of the people on this forum are not writing music; they are writing media music. These are two very different things. The second one requires speed, agility and flexibility. The first requires none of those. As I haven't tried DS yet, I can't comment on what it is suitable for, but I can say that being able to realise what's in a composer's head is much more important to some people than how to slam out a dodgy cable TV movie score in 5 days. Maybe not on this forum though. :wink: 

3) _Products should be easy to use and sound good right out of the box_. There is nothing wrong with a product requiring a lot of work to make it sound good, if the end result is a superiour one. I bought a Euphonium, and it sounded terrible right out of the box. Was that the instrument's fault? No, it was mine, for not being able to play it. Obviously we then come to the comments about professionals not having time to learn to do anything properly. That is partly their fault, not really the fault of a developer. Obviously there is a line where, if would be quicker to actually learn to play the instrument than learn to use the samples, you start to think that a product is not worth using, but again it is only up to the individual where that line is.

4) _Reviews are really useful._ I'm not sure that I've ever found a positive review helpful. I want to know what the problems are, because they may affect me, or I may not care. Therefore any product that gets a lot of praise on a forum has no advantage to me over one that gets slammed. After all I hear many examples where people are praising a product or demo, and to me it sounds out of tune, harsh, synthetic or any number things that would make that product useless to me. Unfortunately the only way for me to test a product is to use it, and that costs time and money. With the current crop of products the real cost is the time, as all sample libraries are pretty cheap these days, but it is often time that people either don't have, or don't want to spend faffing around with new products. Having said that, I don't know what the solution is, other than to have walkthroughs that play every note of every patch in every possible combination. That's a video that would earn money on YouTube :lol: 

D


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## doubleattack (Sep 22, 2012)

re-peat @ Fri 21 Sep said:


> ...Sonically, the library has a few problems as well, I find. There’s a disturbing amount of stereo imaging instability (instruments jumping all over the place, an all too common flaw in many VSL libraries)...
> _



You have no jumps with a single violin, since every single violin of this library is recorded in MONO. The jumps are coming from the different spatial places of the players themself, when they playing a certain articulation in a slightly different way.
This effect will be very obvious with one desk or even two or three single violins in a spatialized placement. Naturally, since the ear can localize two violins even in unisono very clear.
With all respect, Piet, technically, that's not a stereo imaging instability.

Of course the samples themself content a different amount of information of the recording room - depend from articulation and sound intensity. Obviously the leakage (cross-talk) specially in the pp - samples, when the direct signal isn't strong enough anymore wasn't to avoid.

I'm struggling too with the idea of a separated recording of every single violin of a full section; the amount of detail in the sound never occures in real recordings. So you could have a good control about the depths of the whole group (spatialwise) and even better control about the dry and the wet signal (the original room signal of the sample recordings doesn't affect the end-mix results like before). But seems a long way round, considering how much effort is necessary to get a nice sound of the whole string section alone. For me it's to early to tell something about. The time will give me the lection. 

I much appreciate the Force G/D possibilty and the open string sound (I don't find a force A/E necessary, but I suppose it's catalogised in this way for a controled using). Actually you get three librarys, since the regular, the force G/D and the open strings offered with all articulations for each violin. It will take a while to set up this possibilities, but that's what I find very useful and has given me some choices I didn't have before.


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## re-peat (Sep 22, 2012)

doubleattack @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> (...) You have no jumps with a single violin, since every single violin of this library is recorded in MONO.


I know. And you're quite right in that I should have distinghuished more clearly between the mono solo instruments and the stereo desks, groups and ensemble.
But anyway, even if 'stereo imaging instability' isn't the correct technical term for this 'jumping around'-phenomenon (and it probably isn't), I think most people understood what I meant by it. If there's a better, more accurate term for it, I'm all stereo ears.

_


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## FriFlo (Sep 22, 2012)

Yes, the jumping around comes mostly not from stereo pan IMO, but rather from spectral caractaristics of individual samples, which are not coherent from sample to sample. So, it makes perfectly sense, this can be in mono samples as well. Thanks for the detailed description of your experience with DS, Piet. I must say though, depending how long the early bird price is going to be effective and when I feel save to make an investment after many others this year (rebuilding my studio), I might still buy DS. When I listened to the demos I immediately thought of layering them with other sections. IMO audio impression already showed that the sum of 8 solo desks or 4 double desks doesn't add up nicely as a section sound. Still, it showed that piccicatos sound nice and that you can create some 20th century music cluster sounds with it. So, while not great on it's own, i think combining DS with different libraries could be worth the amazing price at this point.
I am thinking Lass desk one plus 2-4 DS solo layers could become a nice 1st Violins chamber sound. Would like to know from Piet how that turns out! Or 4 DS desks plus plus apassionata for Violin 1 and the other 4 desks plus VSL Orchestral Strings as 2nd Violins ...
And I would really like to know how much effort would have to be spent to realize a piece like Atmosheres by Ligeti. And of course how well it turns out to sound with DS ...


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## paulcole (Sep 22, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> I long to read a review like this in something like Sound On Sound. It's why I nearly always trust the real feedback on the net above print media.
> 
> It sorta confirms my first thoughts actually. I wish VSL had spent another year on this library, finding ways to harness the power that they created.



Well that's interesting Guy because the review by the chap that usually writes the VSL reviews in SOS (forget the name) is going to be fascinating. Don't get me wrong; I get SOS but not every month or anything like anymore. They're up against it, these magazines. When you think about it they're on a hiding to nothing with their usually ONE reviewer. These days there are probably 10 blokes on a forum like this, to their one reviewer that know more about it than they do by a factor of 10. Plus, where's the audio to back up their reviews? That's the magic of the internet, alas for them I'm afraid. Plus it's almost instantaneous on the net. Not out of date by 3 months by the time it hits WH Smiths.

When you say VSL may/could have spent another year (insert arbitrary time scale figure here) I understand what you mean in our tiny enclosed, extremely nerdy world of sampling and audio. The trouble with that is, they apparently already spent 4 years on it! That's a big gamble isn't it? 4 years in this game? 

Everyone wants every new sample library to be fantastic from every developer. Unfortunately this doesn't happen and the competition today is obviously far larger than it ever was. The more sample libraries are developed, for the average financed person, the more careful he or she becomes with buying decisions and far more selective. Same with any goods these days. That means there's less cash floating around that people can throw at all of it and hope that some of it sticks to the wall.

For instance, you can understand why Spitfire Audio (merely as one example) tend to go for stuff that's not out there quite as much and in an easy to play, get down on the track, style. IMO.


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## doubleattack (Sep 22, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> (...) ... I'm all stereo ears.
> _



:D . And I agree, hard to describe otherwise. But it makes a different, whether the signal is jumping coming from different early reflections of the recording room or in this way like here. The used amount of player can mask the effect. 



FriFlo @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> Yes, the jumping around comes mostly not from stereo pan IMO, but rather from spectral caractaristics of individual samples, which are not coherent from sample to sample.



It's due to the whole concept, I think. The close micing makes coherent samples impossible. Only more players and more wet signal can mask the effect. That's why I'm doubt it's useful to use one desk or two players only. With the whole group everything works fine - or even lively as it does in the most common lib's with normal decca tree recording. btw one player alone is quite good. And I appreciate the recorded single notes on the first chair up to G'''''.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 22, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> OK, a few points made in this thread to add my views to. I am going to attempt to install DS this weekend, if I have time, so I may be able to post a couple of examples, as I don't really have an opinion yet. Then again, I might just have a weekend off, as usual. :wink:
> 
> 1) _Phasing_. One of the reasons a String section sounds the way it does is because the players do phase with each others playing in real life. This is normal and part of the sound. So, the problem with String section sample libraries phasing is only a question of to what degree the phasing is acceptable.
> 
> ...



Re:
1. Absolutely correct.

2. Absolutely correct

3. That is a philosophy that people either ascribe to or not. I respect both points of view but personally I want it somewhere in the middle, i.e. sounds pretty good out of the box but is not so hard-wired to the room as to be inflexible.

4. I think good reviews are more useful than you do. Generally, if almost every reviewer is lukewarm about a library, I find I am too and if almost every reviewer praises it, I end up liking it too. In short, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.


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## stargazer (Sep 22, 2012)

Just tried a few patches here. This german preciseness will be a great complement the british elegance of Spitfire and the american fatness of HS and 8Dio! 
The spics blended very well with the spiccatos from VSL chamber and solo strings.


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## re-peat (Sep 22, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> Re:
> 1. Absolutely correct.
> 2. Absolutely correct.


I disagree on those two points.

(1) There’s a huge difference between the phasing that occurs among living sounds (real strings) and the phasing that may occur among dead sounds (sampled strings). In the latter case, the phasing is invariably perceived as an artificial, sonically-destructive and most unwelcome effect, inevitably sounding just as dead and static as the sounds which cause it, whereas in the former case, the phasing — which is much more subtle and ‘organic’ there anyway — is a natural, acoustically rich ingredient of the complexity of the timbre and, as such, never heard as something which doesn’t belong.
The phasing of two (or more) sampled violins always produces an unpleasant, unnatural, hollow sound, the phasing of two (or more) real violins on the other hand, enriches and deepens their combined timbre.
Phasing as it sometimes manifests itself when combining samples, is never acceptable. It’s always an ugly sound.

(2) The distinction between writing ‘music’ and writing ‘media music’ is irrelevant. What is relevant, is the relationship between, on the one hand, the amount of time it takes to accomplish something and, on the other hand, the quality of the result. If you need an entire afternoon to assemble and program a violin section with Dynamic Strings and it then turns out that the results don’t sound quite as good, convincing, believable, fitting or musical as the ‘one take’ violinsections of, say, CS2, Loegria or Albion, frustration and disappointment sets in. And very understandably so. 
Lofty composer’s music or dodgy media music, has got nothing to do with it.

Besides, as a three-day-seasoned DS user, I’m afraid I have to start saying that there’s, to my ears anyway, a painful discrepancy emerging between (a) the aspiration of this library — an obvious reach for ultra-realism, as formulated proudly by its developers and unmistakably affirmed by the bewildering amount and detail of what’s included in the package — and (b) the sonic and musical quality of many of its samples, which I'm beginning to find too often rather disappointing. (Most of the long articulations of the desks and groups in particular have almost nothing that can seduce me.)
In other words: I’m starting to fear that the quality of the included material doesn’t quite correspond with the assumed (or hoped-for) potential of the library. 
(Always keeping in mind that the above only pertains to using Dimension Strings as the sole provider of virtual violins in an arrangement. When using the library as a ‘sprinkler’, the way I described in my earlier post, considerations and evaluations change completely of course.)

Anyway. Even more so than those who don’t have the library (yet), I am most curious to hear the first user demo’s, because me, I find myself completely unable to exploit the uniqueness of this library (its 'modular' architecture) and turn it into something that sounds both musical and good.
Sure, it’s dead easy to quickly demonstrate the “All Violins” ensemble patch and come up with a little demo that sounds perfectly charming, but to transform those 8 solo violins, those 2-player desks, or those 4-player groups into one coherent-sounding, musically convincing and sonically pleasing violin section? ... I sure would like to hear someone pull that off. 

_


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## germancomponist (Sep 22, 2012)

I would like to listen to a first user demo too.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 22, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Re:
> ...



I disagree with your disagreement, especially on #2  I'm with Daryl.


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## Gusfmm (Sep 22, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> (1) There’s a huge difference between the phasing that occurs among living sounds (real strings) and the phasing that may occur among dead sounds (sampled strings). In the latter case, the phasing is invariably perceived as an artificial, sonically-destructive and most unwelcome effect, inevitably sounding just as dead and static as the sounds which cause it, whereas in the former case, the phasing — which is much more subtle and ‘organic’ there anyway — is a natural, acoustically rich ingredient of the complexity of the timbre and, as such, never heard as something which doesn’t belong.
> The phasing of two (or more) sampled violins always produces an unpleasant, unnatural, hollow sound, the phasing of two (or more) real violins on the other hand, enriches and deepens their combined timbre._



This sounds borderline exoteric... Try recording a first and second chairs using quality instruments, in a way that there is strong phasing issues. E.g. improper mic placement, latency in recording set-up, etc. There will never be complete phase cancellation, but I don't think anybody will agree that the sound would be organically good, pleasant, or richer. Unpleasant phase cancellation is an issue, whether you deal with samples or live instruments (I'm not sure what you meant by using the term "real" either).


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 22, 2012)

utopia @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> If I remember correctly you own HS gold? Would be very curious to find how they mix as I also own HS gold and am considering the purchase. Please do share your experience when you can. A short demo would be very much appreciated )


Hi utopia,

I'm afraid I don't own any version of the Hollywood Strings package, so I can't give you any comparisons there, much as I would like to!

As for using them as solo strings, I think you'd be better served by VSL's dedicated Solo Strings package for that, or Spitfire's, just because that's literally what they're designed for, but in the meantime the individual violins in DS do sound quite nice and isolated to my ears — but since I neither own VSL's Solo Strings nor the other sections of DS since they're not out yet, I hesitate to give you any definitive answer there.

Not so much as a corollary to what Piet is saying (not qualified to contradict him!) but as an alternate perspective, I would venture to say that the vast majority of time that needs to be invested in preparing Dimension Strings for a template happens once — unless you rebuild your string sound from scratch for each cue, you can get yourself 80% or more of the way there by setting up a good collection of matrices and channel strips for them one rainy weekend and then just adjusting things as you integrate them into the scoring template you're making for each new project. Which, from my perspective, is the same level of tweaking I have to do with just about every other library I've ever used.

Of course, I have no intention of using Dimension Strings as my single go-to string solution either. I get the sense that they weren't designed for that, which seems to be the same conclusion Piet has reached. 

For me, I find that there's something uniquely charming about the precision of the sounds that makes them ideal for layering in as a tightening layer in a larger string sound. Being able to take advantage of VIPro's vast swathe of controls with this deeper sample set (compared to other Vienna products) is tremendously exciting and opens many interesting doors...even if the paths extending from them are longer than they would be from an out-of-the-box oriented library. 

I can live with that, but heed Piet's warning if you're expecting an easy add-on: this most definitely isn't it.


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## re-peat (Sep 22, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> This sounds borderline exoteric... Try recording a first and second chairs using quality instruments, in a way that there is strong phasing issues. E.g. improper mic placement, latency in recording set-up, etc. There will never be complete phase cancellation, but I don't think anybody will agree that the sound would be organically good, pleasant, or richer. Unpleasant phase cancellation is an issue, whether you deal with samples or live instruments (I'm not sure what you meant by using the term "real" either).


Gusfmm,

You’re talking about the phasing that may occur as a result of poor mic placement and/or incompetent recording. That’s something _entirely_ different again. (And you’re right: such recordings don’t sound good at all.)
Daryl however was talking about the characteristic phasing that happens among the instruments themselves, a natural, acoustic phenomenon that’s an essential ingredient of the timbre of a string section.

So, that’s three types of phasing:
(1) ‘acoustic phasing’, among 'real' (or 'live', if you prefer) instruments
(2) recorded phasing that may happen as a result of poor mic placement or a flawed recording set-up
(3) the phasing you may get when stacking similar or identical-sounding samples on top of one another.

Three very, very different things.
(And there's even a fourth type of phasing, which may rear its ugly and unwelcome head during the mixing stage. But that's irrelevant to this discussion.)

And I used the term ‘real instruments’ to describe real, live instruments, and to distinghuish them from ‘sampled instruments’ for which I used, amazingly and boldly, the term ‘sampled instruments’. I do apologize if this is too confusing for you.

_


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 22, 2012)

Yes - since I think I raised the phasing issue, the kind I was describing (which to me is the only thing that accurately describes the term "phasing") is the tunnelling effect of two sounds which are actually from identical sources. If you play a C on a violin twice, the two waveforms will be similar but not identical - add them together and you get a chorusing effect. If you play a C on a violin and copy the wav, the two will be completely identical (obviously) - put two identical wavs together and if you hit it sample accurate it will just get louder, but even the smallest variation in timing will make them phase. If you record a C on a violin on two different microhones side by side, separate them and introduce minute timing differences you will likely also get phasing, because you're recording the same source waveform (even if the characteristics of the microphones occupying a slightly different part of space introduce tiny variations, they won't change the basic physics that they are capturing the same waveform).

That's what I was referring to in Dimension Strings. If a desk is made up of, say, violins 1 and 2, and then you add violin 1 solo, part of the desk waveform will be based on the identical solo waveform, hence you will get phasing. Or that's the theory - if the desks were actually separate recordings of both violins together, made at a different time, then the problem would go away.

All the other definitions of phasing aren't true phasing to me, they're more chorusing effects which of course is natural, fine and essential if you are building ensembles, though Piets caveats of course apply as to when this sounds natural or not in different cases.

You can get phasing on some instruments that were recorded at different times, if the source is identically repeatable - I believe this would be far less of an issue with a violin than with some other less complex instruments.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2012)

I don't use VSL strings because I have others I prefer that sound good or at least better to my ears out of the box.

That said, there is nothing about phasing that has been posted here or will be posted here by, me, or anyone else (yes, even Piet), that the guys at VSL do not know about. They have been doing this a very long time and they are very smart, meticulous, and knowledgeable. No disrespect to anyone intended, but I believe that is an empirically factual statement.

If a potential buyer likes the sound and functionality of any of their libraries, including this one, they should buy it and not worry about what some guys on a forum say about its phasing.

IMHO, of course.


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## stargazer (Sep 23, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> If a potential buyer likes the sound and functionality of any of their libraries, including this one, they should buy it and not worry about what some guys on a forum say about its phasing.


Wise words (and humble too, coming from an EW representative) 0oD


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2012)

stargazer @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Sep 23 said:
> 
> 
> > If a potential buyer likes the sound and functionality of any of their libraries, including this one, they should buy it and not worry about what some guys on a forum say about its phasing.
> ...



I can be pro-EW without being anti-its competitors. Having been a beta tester for and early adopter of VE Pro has given me great respect for VSL.


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## Gusfmm (Sep 23, 2012)

re-peat @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> Gusfmm @ Sat Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > This sounds borderline exoteric... Try recording a first and second chairs using quality instruments, in a way that there is strong phasing issues. E.g. improper mic placement, latency in recording set-up, etc. There will never be complete phase cancellation, but I don't think anybody will agree that the sound would be organically good, pleasant, or richer. Unpleasant phase cancellation is an issue, whether you deal with samples or live instruments (I'm not sure what you meant by using the term "real" either).
> ...



You seriously make it sound exoteric, when it is not. Phase cancellation is so no matter whether it happens in the samples world or in that "real" world. You can have Mr. Perlman and his Strad cloned, and he and his clone play the very same line *"for real"*, and any time misalignment in the act, whether mic-related, recording gear-related, playing timing related, or acoustic placement related, there will be nasty phasing issues. 

You are simply prone to noticing phasing much more easily in a lesser amount to instruments setup than when you record a whole section, and that was I believe part of the concern somebody rose when you suggested mixing desks and sections with individual instruments interminggled (as you're suggesting duplicating the very same exact waveform). It is a physical randomness event more than anything else. And there is always phasing in multiple similar sounds played at the same time, e.g. a string section. I believe the question Daryl was rising is to doublecheck to what extent there may be some noticeable phasing in DS and these simultaneously recorded individual players.

And I totally agree with Jay's comment above, it's futile to get into any further details here. As I said, phasing would be the least of my concerns with VSL. More of a concern with how anyone utilizes the library.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 23, 2012)

Agreed - there's no design flaw suggested there, just that folks should be aware of how to use any library that has a combination of solos and sections derived from them. Same deal with CHH vol2, which has solos and combos, or LASS - just don't add LASS A to LASS ensemble, which contains A, that's all. You cannae change the laws of physics, captain.


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## re-peat (Sep 23, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> You seriously make it sound exoteric, when it is not.


What are you going on about? And what's with the 'exoteric'? Is that the Word Of The Week in Gusfmm Towers? I never said there was phasing in DS, I never even suggested that phasing could be a problem, I didn't even raise the issue to begin with. I merely replied, disagreeingly, to the part of Daryl's statement where he compares phasing, as it may happen among samples, to the phasing that is a natural ingredient of a (real) violinsection's sound. That's all.

But back to DS: I've meanwhile tried out all sorts of possible combinations, and I believe it can be safely said that phasing is not an issue. Of course, one could easily create phasing problems when using DS in a particular way, but since the library has got enough problems already as it is — I'm on day four and my, possibly final, verdict of "Utterly Useless When Used As The Only Stringslibrary In An Arrangement" is approaching this discussion with gathering speed — it seems to me that we shouldn't dwell on this silly phasing business any longer.

_


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## Gusfmm (Sep 23, 2012)

No WotW here. Simply, often, less is more. That's all.Take no offense, as no offense was intended. 

I agree, let's leave the "phasing that occurs among living sounds (real strings) and the phasing that may occur among dead sounds (sampled strings)" exoterism behind...


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## stargazer (Sep 23, 2012)

re-peat @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> But back to DS: I've meanwhile tried out all sorts of possible combinations, and I believe it can be safely said that phasing is not an issue. Of course, one could easily create phasing problems when using DS in a particular way, but since the library has got enough problems already as it is — I'm on day four and my, possibly final, verdict of "Utterly Useless When Used As The Only Stringslibrary In An Arrangement" is approaching this discussion with gathering speed — it seems to me that we shouldn't dwell on this silly phasing business any longer.
> _



I don't think anybody expects it to be "The Only Stringslibrary In An Arrangement", since it's only Violins... :wink: 
Anyway, I'm with you, I haven' had much time to test it yet, but I first of all see it as a very good complement to my other string libs. But, even though I have HS, Adagio, all Spitfire etc, my Vienna strings would probably be the last strings for me to part with. I know they get a lot of negative comments not the least on web forums, but they do bring something of their own to the table.


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## FriFlo (Sep 25, 2012)

I would very much like someone who already has DS to post some sound snippets. Did anyone try to combine them with other libraries. How does Ligeti cluster stuff work? This would be one of the main reasons to buy this for me ...


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## jamwerks (Sep 25, 2012)

FriFlo @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> How does Ligeti cluster stuff work?



I don't have DS, but if you want to do Ligeti-type writing (clusters and such), I think you've found your library. :mrgreen:


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## FriFlo (Sep 25, 2012)

Yeah, that's what i thought!  But how does it sound? I already got something like 5 different solo string libraries to combine. I would only buy this, if sound was better with DS ...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 25, 2012)

The harder you have to work to achieve a good sound, the less writing you'll do, as most of that stuff costs lots of time. On the other hand, if you have a Medici and are sitting in some ivory tower merrily whiling away the hours on your own esoteric pursuits whilst being well supported by your patrons, I suppose all those dodgy media music concerns are a bit moot.

Sheesh.

What, it's not hard enough to make a living in this business, we should add to it by throwing some patronizing crap around as we discuss the usefulness of a product?
Gotta love fraternity.


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## FriFlo (Sep 25, 2012)

I have no idea, what you are trying to say here ...  While my question was rather a practical one, you answered (or not answered) it with a cloud of ... well ... whatever ...
Yes, i have these easy libraries sounding good out of the box, too. However, no library can do great string clusters. Hence, my easy question regarding if anybody has given that a try with DS ...


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## P.T. (Sep 25, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> The harder you have to work to achieve a good sound, the less writing you'll do, as most of that stuff costs lots of time. On the other hand, if you have a Medici and are sitting in some ivory tower merrily whiling away the hours on your own esoteric pursuits whilst being well supported by your patrons, I suppose all those dodgy media music concerns are a bit moot.
> 
> Sheesh.
> 
> ...



Not everyone makes music to earn a living.
Some do it just to...make music.
And take as long as it takes to get it the way they want it.

What's so hard to understand about art for arts sake?


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## paulcole (Sep 25, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> The harder you have to work to achieve a good sound, the less writing you'll do, as most of that stuff costs lots of time.



No doubt about that. It takes too long messing around. Some of the best songs ever written took 20 minutes or less. Those writers didn't use samples, but had they done, they would've had someone else do it for them.


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 25, 2012)

Hi folks,

Given the discussion about how much time you have to invest in the sequencing vs. the result, I wanted to put together a quick and dirty example of Dimension Strings usage without spending time fiddling, tweaking, or even using more than one articulation. I'm doing this before a polished demo because I think we all know that, in the right hands, any library can be made to sound brilliant, so it's often more useful to see what it sounds like for "the rest of us" with minimal hassle.

Accordingly, I've put together a 30-second phrase from Over the Rainbow, played in live in one pass with Mod Wheel controlling dynamics x-fade, using the performance legato espressivo patch (from the regular folder, no forced strings). Because, as has been discussed, I don't think DS works all that well on its own, I have also made a second rendering where I've simply loaded the performance legatos from Orchestral Strings as well — same cell, so it's running through the identical MIDI data.

The underlying strings pad is just the crappy appasionata sustain patch that comes with the Epic Orchestra download (from the VEPro promotion). Like I said: quick and dirty.

The dry versions are literally bone dry, right out of the box, with no reverb, EQ, or anything. The wet versions feature a tiny bit of EQ on the DS strings to tame a few harsh resonances, and then they're run through SPAT for spatialization and EW Spaces for a bit of hall tail.

DS Alone (Dry): https://www.box.com/s/4482vg1velnzwaevjjwz
DS Alone (Wet): https://www.box.com/s/trqqllwx6sbebcq54wxa
DS + Orchestral Strings (Dry): https://www.box.com/s/x7q04ve25hty0okbo9n5
DS + Orchestral Strings (Wet): https://www.box.com/s/f93aauj5ik441rcumnt3

My hope is that this example will give you a sense of what you can expect with literally like ten minutes of effort, no articulation switching, and no jumping into the deep end of what the library can do. You'll hear the tone of DS' violin 1 on its own, and you'll hear how it can add a sense of liveliness as a layering element.

More to come as I get pockets of free time!


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## Bernard Quatermass (Sep 25, 2012)

Straight out of the box they sound like shit. IMO>

I also listened to them in the other thread and the Beethoven or Brahms. Whatever it is.
They still sound like shit to me.

If CS2 had sounded like that straight out of the box I would have tried to send them back. Dreadful sound to me anyway.


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## jamwerks (Sep 25, 2012)

Thanks for putting those up Mathius


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## Sampleconstruct (Sep 25, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Given the discussion about how much time you have to invest in the sequencing vs. the result, I wanted to put together a quick and dirty example of Dimension Strings usage without spending time fiddling, tweaking, or even using more than one articulation. I'm doing this before a polished demo because I think we all know that, in the right hands, any library can be made to sound brilliant, so it's often more useful to see what it sounds like for "the rest of us" with minimal hassle.
> 
> ...



The DS alone dry/wet examples sound extremely synthetic to my ears, nothing I would ever spend money on.


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## Daryl (Sep 25, 2012)

Bernard Quatermass @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Straight out of the box they sound like [email protected]#t. IMO>
> 
> I also listened to them in the other thread and the Beethoven or Brahms. Whatever it is.
> They still sound like [email protected]#t to me.
> ...


I think you mean that in that demo, using only one violin, whih is not theintended way to use the library, they sound like [email protected]#t. :wink: 

D


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## germancomponist (Sep 25, 2012)

I would like to test this violins by myself...


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## devastat (Sep 25, 2012)

I have to agree with others, the sound of the strings in this example is very synthetic and not very nice in my opinion. Somehow I just don't believe in the concept of sampling a string section individually..


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## germancomponist (Sep 25, 2012)

devastat @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Somehow I just don't believe in the concept of sampling a string section individually..



Oh, I know it can work very well..... . o/~


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## devastat (Sep 25, 2012)

germancomponist @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Oh, I know it can work very well..... . o/~



If you show me where it can work well, I'm all ears


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## Fidelity (Sep 25, 2012)

devastat @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Sep 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I know it can work very well..... . o/~
> ...



+1....I'm scrambling to return my purchase before it arrives right now...can you please post an example so I don't have to?


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## R.Cato (Sep 25, 2012)

Fidelity @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> devastat @ Tue Sep 25 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Tue Sep 25 said:
> ...



Gunther has already posted above that he doesn't own DS yet. So I think you have to ask someone else. :wink:


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 25, 2012)

Folks,

Just to emphasize what I said initially: this example is expressly intended to show the library in its most vulnerable state. That was the whole point.

Clearly you would not use it with so little attention paid to nuance and sequencing, but I do believe it's easy enough to hear what they can add to existing string collections if you afford them your usual amount of EQ and layering work.

I'm not sure if the reactions I'm seeing are because people are largely used to the kinds of libraries where the hall sound is baked in, but one of the consequences of VSL's silent stage recording techniques are that nothing they ever produce sounds "good" out of the box. They are the antithesis of an "out of the box" mentality.

I believe I stated in a previous post that if you're after an easy to use library, this is not it. Nothing VSL makes is what I would consider "easy" to use. Flexible, powerful, vast, sometimes bewildering, but not easy.

So yes, what I posted above sounds far from what you'd want to publish. Everyone desires naked examples, but they are unfavourable to VSL libs when compared to others because of the fundamentally opposite sampling philosophy. Nevertheless, they are honest and potentially useful representations for those familiar with VSL and looking to compare to their existing products.

Others will chime in with more naked examples, more polished examples, and more demo pieces over the coming days. I'm just hoping to contribute material to the pool to help people make a good purchasing decision for their workflow and aesthetic preferences.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 25, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Folks,
> 
> Just to emphasize what I said initially: this example is expressly intended to show the library in its most vulnerable state. That was the whole point.



No good deed goes unpunished here


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## Gerd Kaeding (Sep 25, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Given the discussion about how much time you have to invest in the sequencing vs. the result, I wanted to put together a quick and dirty example of Dimension Strings usage without spending time fiddling, tweaking, or even using more than one articulation. I'm doing this before a polished demo because I think we all know that, in the right hands, any library can be made to sound brilliant, so it's often more useful to see what it sounds like for "the rest of us" with minimal hassle.
> 
> ...



Hi Mathazzar ,

thanks for providing those files.
Much appreciated .

Best 
Gerd


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## germancomponist (Sep 25, 2012)

R.Cato @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Fidelity @ Tue Sep 25 said:
> 
> 
> > devastat @ Tue Sep 25 said:
> ...



Right!

What I mean is that you can build ensembles out of solo instruments. I did many many experiments and it is possible. ...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 25, 2012)

FriFlo @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> I have no idea, what you are trying to say here ...  While my question was rather a practical one, you answered (or not answered) it with a cloud of ... well ... whatever ...
> Yes, i have these easy libraries sounding good out of the box, too. However, no library can do great string clusters. Hence, my easy question regarding if anybody has given that a try with DS ...



I was responding to an earlier poster. Reading through the thread, it would be simple to identify wich post that was, but really , never mind, just something that annoyed me.

As for art for art's sake, I wrote music for a well known choreographer of modern dance for a time. Five different ballets of an average 20 minutes of music each. It was interesting, but it didn't keep my kid in sneakers, nor my Corgi in dog food. I've never made a living in anything but music, and that spans 40 years. Art? Who's he?


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 25, 2012)

germancomponist @ Tue 25 Sep said:


> What I mean is that you can build ensembles out of solo instruments. I did many many experiments and it is possible. ...


Indeed, a few years ago I played around with VSL Solo Strings to make it sound like an ensemble. What surprised me is how 4 solo violins sounded really close the the Chamber Strings sound and 3 or 4 Chamber Strings sounded like Orchestral Strings. I got passable results, but the detuning and retuning was a bitch. I think that's the main point of DS, that the separate Violinisits were doing the constant tuning while the recording was made.


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## clonewar (Sep 25, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Given the discussion about how much time you have to invest in the sequencing vs. the result, I wanted to put together a quick and dirty example of Dimension Strings usage without spending time fiddling, tweaking, or even using more than one articulation. I'm doing this before a polished demo because I think we all know that, in the right hands, any library can be made to sound brilliant, so it's often more useful to see what it sounds like for "the rest of us" with minimal hassle.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for doing this! You said that you used one patch, was it an 8 violin ensemble patch, or one of the smaller or solo patches?


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## Bernard Quatermass (Sep 25, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Folks,
> 
> Just to emphasize what I said initially: this example is expressly intended to show the library in its most vulnerable state. That was the whole point.



I don't want 'vulnerable states' for 600 quid going onto 900 later. These days, anything barely scratching that price given the competition that now exists has got to be first rate or it's bollocks afaic.

Too many people waste too much time and stress on paying for other peoples sampling experiments. 

It sounds like shit whether its a single violin or you can build a skyscraper out of the desks for all I care at those prices. It's rubbish and that's it. I don't understand why people can't accept their own ears. Go read the Emperors New Clothes. IMO.

Thanks for the heads up. Great demos.


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## germancomponist (Sep 25, 2012)

Scrianinoff @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue 25 Sep said:
> 
> 
> > What I mean is that you can build ensembles out of solo instruments. I did many many experiments and it is possible. ...
> ...



Listen to my first experiment here: https://www.box.com/shared/dwf3n6tk4w

First you can listen to all the solo violins, and then to the section what I had built with this solo instruments.

This experiment I did in the year 2008. Now I have found out much more cool things and I will post cool (killer) examples later.


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 25, 2012)

germancomponist @ Tue 25 Sep said:


> Now I have found out much more cool things and I will post cool (killer) examples later.


Thanks, just don't forget to post the pre-order price


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## 667 (Sep 25, 2012)

So now that we've heard the "bad" can anyone offer the "good"? If those were an example of this library's vulnerable side-- what are its greatest strengths? I thought the official demo ("Norman's Mind") had some highs and lows but the second half sounds very good to me, many of the legatos sounded very good and the final run is great!

Is the bottom line that it just takes a lot of work in terms of articulation selection, humanization tweaking, etc.? It seems to me once you have a template fully set up (including preferred reverb/MIR/SPAT settings) it should be a little more usable but I am not a VSL user so not really familiar with their software at all.

I'm very tempted by the pre-order price even though it would mean pushing back my DAW upgrade yet another month or two.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 25, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> You'll hear the tone of DS' violin 1 on its own



Mathazzar, do I understand that this is supposed to be the sound of 1 violin ... or a section?

Former option would be totally irrelevant for judging the library.


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## Daryl (Sep 25, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Mathazzar @ Tue Sep 25 said:
> 
> 
> > You'll hear the tone of DS' violin 1 on its own
> ...


That is one violin, and as I said before, not the way to judge this library.

Having said that, I haven't yet found a good way for working with the legato. I can get some good, and some bad results, but still need to find a better way of working. for the other articulations is works very well. I also find that it blends with the Orchestral Violins extremely well.

D


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 25, 2012)

Here's a brief 8 (separate) violin DS sample - using 8 MIDI tracks (35 sec.):

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Brief%20DS%20sample1.wav

It's marcato followed by staccs, then legato, then dynamics, then pizz. 

It's just the output of the template I'm in the process of developing. MIR (shortened version of Mozartsaal v2 with the second mic position added) and then into a sprinkling of overall B2 reverb. I tried a couple of the Teldex venues but surprisingly couldn't get what I wanted. 

To shorten my workflow I've used the generic VSL presets (Large Set L2 of each of the 8 vlns), assigned additional MIDI controllers to VelX, SlotX and Exp. I use the Regular Matrix for 5 of the vlns and have capriciously chosen 3 of the 8 vlns to have other Forced string matrices - just to break up the monotony of the tone. This way I can arm all 8 tracks without regard of the basic intonation and the sound then has some variation automatically built into it. Yes, I could for example variously change the matrices of the MIDI tracks for more specific sounds but I have to start somewhere because there are so many choices to make and so little time in the day. 

Anyway with what I have so far, I just play away... 

.

PS-
Oh yeah, I wanted to mention that in my layering experiments I've been most happy combining DS with Loegria. Love to hear what you guys are coming up with...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 25, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Here's a brief 8 (separate) violin DS sample - using 8 MIDI tracks (35 sec.):
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Brief%20DS%20sample1.wav
> 
> ...



I think that sounds pretty excellent as a small violin group.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 25, 2012)

Hi Larry - 

Yes, they are a smaller sound for sure. But.... they have an extremely wide range of expression. Here's a short blurb of a soft line that splits into 2 part and then 3 part divisi. The 'weight' feels right. Same template components as mentioned above. Just playin' around with the concept. 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Brief%20DS%20sample2.wav

I'm really glad I got these. Every little experiment bears some new fruit and new direction. Still, I think a lot of us will be using these for 'detail' in layering. Unless you want to go for the chamber sound. Haven't tried them with the other VSL strings yet. 

.


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## benmrx (Sep 26, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> I think that sounds pretty excellent as a small violin group.



+1 This is more like it. 

It doesn't sound like you had to get all scientific with it, and yet it sounds pretty good. Sure, it could be tweaked, but I imagine this could be a wonderful place to work from, and then refining if/when need be for what ever project you're working on. 



Jack Weaver said:


> Oh yeah, I wanted to mention that in my layering experiments I've been most happy combining DS with Loegria. Love to hear what you guys are coming up with...



I've been layering Loegria with LASS Lite and liking the results, but I would love to hear what DS sounds like. hint hint.....


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## Hannes_F (Sep 26, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Here's a brief 8 (separate) violin DS sample - using 8 MIDI tracks (35 sec.):
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Brief%20DS%20sample1.wav
> 
> ...



Now we are talking. This sounds useable at least. However ... not sure this could not be achieved with Siedlacek etc. too.

The staccatos seem to be a bit further away than the marcato at the beginning, no?

Question: How taxing is this in terms of voice count?


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## paulcole (Sep 26, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Tue Sep 25 said:


> Here's a brief 8 (separate) violin DS sample - using 8 MIDI tracks (35 sec.):
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Brief%20DS%20sample1.wav
> 
> It's marcato followed by staccs, then legato, then dynamics, then pizz.



Thanks for putting that up Jack. To be honest thats not really a great sound.

Ok thanks very much.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 26, 2012)

Guys, I feel in order to do justice to this library you need really to perform each of the 8 violins indepently ... and musically. That is what it is intended for. Soloing one violin or running the same midi through all is not the idea here, and also introducing some arbitrary random to some of the voices will only get you halfway there (or less).

This is something for people who don't shy away from grinding the stone, I am afraid.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 26, 2012)

i think it's a good unmanicured sound. It's not CS or Hollywood Strings, but is it supposed to be?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 26, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 26 said:


> i think it's a good unmanicured sound. It's not CS or Hollywood Strings, but is it supposed to be?



No, VSL has a philosophy and they are true to it, which I respect.


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## clonewar (Sep 26, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Sep 26 said:


> Guys, I feel in order to do justice to this library you need really to perform each of the 8 violins indepently ... and musically. That is what it is intended for. Soloing one violin or running the same midi through all is not the idea here, and also introducing some arbitrary random to some of the voices will only get you halfway there (or less).
> 
> This is something for people who don't shy away from grinding the stone, I am afraid.



That's pretty much the message I got from the interview with Herb. When he's talking about why they didn't include any Auto Divisi presets he says "The best results are achieved when every voice is treated and recorded separately."


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 26, 2012)

Yes, they are a smaller sound for sure. Definitely naked and revealed - every little thing is under a spotlight. But.... they have an extremely wide range of expression. There are hundred of possibilities for different ensemble sounds. Here's a short blurb of a soft line (dyns & legato) that splits into 2 part and then 3 part divisi. The 'weight' feels right. 

Same template components as mentioned above. Just playin' around with the concept. I think everyone should have the opportunity to hear what it sounds like when you simply put 'hands on' and play it. Especially since you aren't give the opportunity to try it for free before you have to buy. Here's hoping that the listeners have the vision to listen to it 'without context' and see what it could be in your own work and compositions. 
- Don't forget these are just the violins and the rest of the sections are on the way. -

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Brief%20DS%20sample2.wav (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40008580/Brief% ... ample2.wav)

I'm really glad I got these. Every little experiment bears some new fruit and new direction. Still, I think a lot of us will be using these mainly for 'detail' in layering - unless you are going for the chamber/studio orchestra sound. Haven't tried them with the other VSL strings yet.

.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 26, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Sep 26 said:


> Guys, I feel in order to do justice to this library you need really to perform each of the 8 violins indepently ... and musically. That is what it is intended for. Soloing one violin or running the same midi through all is not the idea here, and also introducing some arbitrary random to some of the voices will only get you halfway there (or less).
> 
> This is something for people who don't shy away from grinding the stone, I am afraid.




Correct.

Also, demos coming up soon.


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## FriFlo (Sep 27, 2012)

There is a new video up on the VSL site. This is an overview of all articulations played separately. I think this proves all folks wrong that condemned this new library as ugly right from the start.
Yes, this DS is probably not the best tool as a first string library.
Yes, there may always be moments, where another library is better or has to be combined with.
Yes, for some results you will have to fiddle around with technical things (though less so, if you made the effort to do your template right).
Yes, even this library leaves room for more to wish for (some wish more articulations, some would prefer dedicated 2nd Violins).

But what du you expect? I never bought a library, I was completely happy with! Just happy for what it is supposed to do, if it does that right.

IMO it is quite clear now, that you can do things with DS other choices cannot achieve. And I already have all VSL Strings, LASS, XSample Strings, ALbion I+II and Symphobia in my pallet. All you guys who wish quick results easily: This was not made for you! Buy some out-of-the-box product and be happy with it. I will definitely buy DS. It is great!


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 27, 2012)

VSL's patch overview video is here: http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/2512/2517/2165.htm

I'm anxiously awaiting demos by Guy Bacos.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 27, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Wed Sep 26 said:


> Yes, they are a smaller sound for sure. Definitely naked and revealed - every little thing is under a spotlight. But.... they have an extremely wide range of expression. There are hundred of possibilities for different ensemble sounds. Here's a short blurb of a soft line (dyns & legato) that splits into 2 part and then 3 part divisi. The 'weight' feels right.
> 
> Same template components as mentioned above. Just playin' around with the concept. I think everyone should have the opportunity to hear what it sounds like when you simply put 'hands on' and play it. Especially since you aren't give the opportunity to try it for free before you have to buy. Here's hoping that the listeners have the vision to listen to it 'without context' and see what it could be in your own work and compositions.
> - Don't forget these are just the violins and the rest of the sections are on the way. -
> ...



If only for that chamber sound, small orchestra, these might be worthwhile based on what I'm hearing. I may have to take up my old gigolo gig to afford them.


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## muziksculp (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi,

Just in case you did not notice, there are two new audio demos on the VSL / Dim-Strings webpage. 

Here you go : http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/2512/2516/2164.htm

Thanks VSL for the additional audio demos, and new video demo. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Erik (Oct 1, 2012)

Hi,
In case you've missed it: I have added some new demo's on my blog featuring combinations of DS with other VSL products (as well with Session Strings Pro btw).

There is a download package available with tracks of separate (vln1.) sections (wav) of the full version of this work; dry, so you will be able to mix and combine tracks in your DAW with your own settings (verb, EQ etc.).

See under http://eotte.blogspot.nl/2012/09/dimension-strings.html (South by South-West).


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## muziksculp (Oct 1, 2012)

Erik @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Hi,
> In case you've missed it: I have added some new demo's on my blog featuring combinations of DS with other VSL products (as well with Session Strings Pro btw).
> 
> There is a download package available with tracks of separate (vln1.) sections (wav) of the full version of this work; dry, so you will be able to mix and combine tracks in your DAW with your own settings (verb, EQ etc.).
> ...



Very Cool, Thanks !

Will be checking it out as well. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------

