# Realistic orchestration and double stops



## Nao Gam (Sep 9, 2018)

So writing realistically is not a priority for me but I'd like to know this in case I wanna do it in the future. I was wondering today if strings can play octaves on the same instrument. Apparently it's possible on a violin, but then I wondered what's the maximum distance between two notes on a double stop for each instrument? I would imagine for basses and cellos it's harder because of the largest distances between the "frets"? Does the same apply to their ranges, ie is a double stop narrower the higher up the fretboard you go?

Yes I know about divisi. Just curious about this, especially the octaves


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## Kubler (Sep 9, 2018)

There's some technical aspects evoked here, followed by notation matters → http://www.timusic.net/debreved/double-trouble/

(Awesome blog, by the way, if you're looking into learning orchestration)

My brother is a violonist, I actually harassed him at some point because I wanted all kinds of explainations about double stops. He ended up providing me a really nice spreadsheet reading finger positions on the strings and the notes they play (with FIGURATIVE frets  )





It's in french notation but you can look up the notes names if you're not familiar with it. The B (Si) without its octave number at the bottom line is a mistake by the way, ignore it.


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## Kubler (Sep 9, 2018)

So as for the maximum double stop interval, I'd say those are theorically Free string + highest note on the next string (free E string excepted, of course)

For every other combination, this spreadsheet should be a fairly truthful guide about what is possible or not – according to my brother, you should avoid to go beyond a 7-frets gap, and 9 is generally what's considered to be the maximum gap for the average player.

Of course there are other things to consider (you mentioned two of them, the answer is "yes" for both), like the fact that the harder a double stop is, the longer the time given to the players to change their fingers position should be (aka, not half notes at 160 BPM). Also, difficult double stops are less likely to be pulled off at a good tune, so it depends on the effect you might want to give or the style of your piece.


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## Kubler (Sep 9, 2018)

douggibson said:


> If your string section has frets, you are already fucked.



I should have precised I was talking about the figurative frets on the spreadsheet 

I still feel stupid tho but it's 5 in the morning here I have an excusejkejflzzg;tlrt


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## Piano Pete (Sep 9, 2018)

The problem with this this question is that it depends on what notes you want, where they occur in the instruments' register, what stringed instrument you are on, and what the tempo is. 

Rule of thumb: sixth's are usually comfortable, as are fourths, but octaves and fifths etc are possible--usually uncomfortable in lower registers--depending on where in the instrument you are at. The higher up you go on the instrument, the more fingering choices are available and it becomes easier to perform most double/triple stops of varying intervals as the distance between notes lessens. 

Typically octaves are avoided as any inconsistency in finger placement is blatantly obvious. With some form of other indicated harmony--sixths etc--tuning fluctuations are less obvious. With that in mind, octaves occur quite a bit.
_*
Consult a competent soloist for all of these decisions. Have them review/play any part in question. They do not bite...often. *_

Fun fact: for example, this is why a lot of the major violin concertos all hover around the same key centers--usually around open string tunings--as it allows for these sorts of things to be done in an efficient yet manageable manner. [E minor, G major, D major...] Something to consider while composing. 

Usually, double stops occur a lot in solo repertoire and concerti, but they do occur--occasionally--in ensemble writing. Practicality aside, tuning is a major pain in the rear! When you amplify those slight differences in tuning amongst a section, chaos usually ensues for a good 2-4 minutes. There are examples of forcefully indicated double stops in orchestral literature, that are pretty impossible to ignore and just divide as normally, as this was done for timbral reasons. The most common form is an open string paired with another; however in most of these scenarios, these sections are usually set up in such a way that are most convenient to the players in aspects of rhythm, pitch, and register. These usually are accompanied by an indicator of some sort with a suggested fingering. 

In moments that are either cumbersome and, or the timbral impact is nominal, most orchestras will ignore the direction and divide as normal.


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## leon chevalier (Sep 10, 2018)

Kubler said:


> There's some technical aspects evoked here, followed by notation matters → http://www.timusic.net/debreved/double-trouble/


Fantastic Blog ! Thanks for the link


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## Nao Gam (Sep 10, 2018)

Alright thanks guys!


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## thesteelydane (Sep 10, 2018)

Yes, avoid 5ths like the plague unless you know what you are doing. And that also goes for non double stop writing, especially if legato. A fifth on violin, viola and cello will always have to be played as a double stop with a SINGLE FINGER pressing down TWO STRINGS or involve a position change on the same string (the latter is no problem in melodic non double stop writing, as long as you don’t go back to the first note again, in other words don’t use fifths as melodic ornaments). It’s not only very difficult to get in tune (because fingertips are usually round) it also becomes increasingly difficult the higher you go, since the distance of between the strings and height over the finger board gets greater. There’s also the issue of getting to and from the fifth, so difficulty also depends on the notes chosen immediately before and after the fifth, whether double stop or not.

The exception to all this is fifths played in a low position with a low finger. It’s easier to push the two strings down with the 1st finger than the 3rd or 4th.

Note that none of this applies to the bass, since it’s tuned in fourths and therefore can stop a fifth with 2 different fingers.

You can obviously find exceptions to all this from all the great composers. There’s a famous example of a very high double stopped fifth in Tchaikovsky’s violin concerto, but there are reasons why that one works. And of course for players with short and fat fingers, like Perlman, fifths are much easier.

Indiscrimate use of fifths is always a dead give away that the composer hasn’t bothered to try and understand the instrument he/she is writing for, more than any other error you can make in string writing. I encounter this problem so frequently in my clients writing, that I made a video about it to help them (and myself )


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## Nao Gam (Sep 10, 2018)

@douggibson @thesteelydane thanks guys, tbh I'm just a hobbyist, I won't be writing for a real orchestra, but it's nice to know the natural limits of an instrument, especially for solo cello.
Tbh I'd expect cello and bass players to find it easier to play 5ths/4ths with two fingers since the instruments are bigger and resting on the ground. But I'm sure it's one of those things you'd get angry looks for lol
Also great vid steely, keeping it visual and practical makes things easier to understand. Very practical way, the way these instruments are tuned as well. Makes modal music easier if I got that correctly. And it never occured to me divergence of strings the lower you go can make playing difficult.
Anyway thanks everyone for the answers.


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## thesteelydane (Sep 10, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> @douggibson @thesteelydane thanks guys, tbh I'm just a hobbyist, I won't be writing for a real orchestra, but it's nice to know the natural limits of an instrument, especially for solo cello.
> Tbh I'd expect cello and bass players to find it easier to play 5ths/4ths with two fingers since the instruments are bigger and resting on the ground. But I'm sure it's one of those things you'd get angry looks for lol
> Also great vid steely, keeping it visual and practical makes things easier to understand. Very practical way, the way these instruments are tuned as well. Makes modal music easier if I got that correctly. And it never occured to me divergence of strings the lower you go can make playing difficult.
> Anyway thanks everyone for the answers.



Thanks, appreciate it! Fifths are indeed easier for cellists, but that has more to do with the angle of the finger to the fingerboard being almost perpendicular, making it easier to stop two strings. 4ths are no problem on a cello, since it's two fingers used, whereas 5ths are played with one finger. That said, it's also important to understand that while the span of the hand on violin/viola is a 4th, on cello it's a minor 3rd, with possible extension of the 1st finger back to cover a major 3rd. That means cellists have way more positions shifts, having to zig-zag up and down the fingerboard to play just a simple scale. 

I applaud your efforts to write idiomatically, even if just for samples! The best way to learn this, short of talking to actual players, is to play through solo rep for the respective instruments on your keyboard. Etudes with printed fingerings are a good place to start, while trying to visualise what finger is being used on what string, and how it connects to the notes before and after. This will give you a solid understanding of how the instrument is played, while ALSO giving you a strong sense of how idiomatic string lines translate to the keyboard. Many things that are easy on a piano are downright impossible on a string instrument.


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## Nao Gam (Sep 10, 2018)

thesteelydane said:


> Thanks, appreciate it! Fifths are indeed easier for cellists, but that has more to do with the angle of the finger to the fingerboard being almost perpendicular, making it easier to stop two strings. 4ths are no problem on a cello, since it's two fingers used, whereas 5ths are played with one finger. That said, it's also important to understand that while the span of the hand on violin/viola is a 4th, on cello it's a minor 3rd, with possible extension of the 1st finger back to cover a major 3rd. That means cellists have way more positions shifts, having to zig-zag up and down the fingerboard to play just a simple scale.
> 
> I applaud your efforts to write idiomatically, even if just for samples! The best way to learn this, short of talking to actual players, is to play through solo rep for the respective instruments on your keyboard. Etudes with printed fingerings are a good place to start, while trying to visualise what finger is being used on what string, and how it connects to the notes before and after. This will give you a solid understanding of how the instrument is played, while ALSO giving you a strong sense of how idiomatic string lines translate to the keyboard. Many things that are easy on a piano are downright impossible on a string instrument.


I see. Tbh I'd rather watch Tina Guo play a piece and duplicate it with a library, much more intuitive and engaging.
I'm also a beginner guitarist and I've been feeling some of the struggles of changing positions and twisting your fingers around  only it's much harder with a tiny fingerboard, no frets & 4 strings
Piano still comes more naturally for me personally
Also, your neck must hate you for choosing this instrument haha


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## thesteelydane (Sep 10, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> Also, your neck must hate you for choosing this instrument haha



Indeed. I developed a massive shoulder blade dysfunction from playing, that put me out of business for almost 2 years, all documented here. 85 % of orchestral players develop a potentially career ending injury at some point, and yet it's still a taboo laden subject in the business. It's one of the many reasons I quit the orchestra world, and now try to become a composer instead. I still have major jaw problems from playing, and have to sleep with a massive teeth guard, lest I want to have any teeth left when I get old, even though I play a lot less these days. But otherwise I'm fine


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## Nao Gam (Sep 10, 2018)

thesteelydane said:


> Indeed. I developed a massive shoulder blade dysfunction from playing, that put me out of business for almost 2 years, all documented here. 85 % of orchestral players develop a potentially career ending injury at some point, and yet it's still a taboo laden subject in the business. It's one of the many reasons I quit the orchestra world, and now try to become a composer instead. I still have major jaw problems from playing, and have to sleep with a massive teeth guard, lest I want to have any teeth left when I get old, even though I play a lot less these days. But otherwise I'm fine


Damn. I wonder if anyone's thought of making a device that keeps the instrument in place so you don't have to use your jaw. It shouldn't be too hard to make.


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## ptram (Sep 10, 2018)

And now the other question: why no library contain samples of double stops? They don't sound like two separate strings being played together by a sampler.

Paolo


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## thesteelydane (Sep 10, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> Damn. I wonder if anyone's thought of making a device that keeps the instrument in place so you don't have to use your jaw. It shouldn't be too hard to make.



Because it severely hinders movement, you have to tilt and change the angle of the instrument to get around it. Most people use shoulder rests, which alleviates the problem a little. That said, there's a previously injured guy in Montreal Symphony that straps his viola into a sort of harness that keeps it in place for him. There's also makers like David Rivinus that make crazy looking, but more ergonomic instruments.


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## Loïc D (Sep 10, 2018)

@thesteelydane : thanks a LOT for your comments. I've bookmarked your video for later use. 

Hope your condition gets better.


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## Piano Pete (Sep 10, 2018)

douggibson said:


> Hmmm.... sorry. Not true. 5ths are perhaps the worst to choose. The exception is the low range of the cello.
> 
> Perhaps some of the professional violin players here can chime in as to why perfect 5ths are not a good interval to double stop.




As a violinist, I cannot dispute fifths are pretty tough, uncomfortable, and should usually be avoided--hence why I tried to emphasize their impracticality and not whether they were possible, as they are. Perhaps my post did not convey that as much as I thought or hoped for.

Even with that said, all I did was mention that they are possible--which is true. As Nao Gam asked a question regarding double stops, they should be addressed in all their glory and infamy. I find it in poor taste to completely write them off from ever being used in a composition at face value, as there are plenty of powerful musical moments in violin and string rep that are the result of such techniques. I for one, have played enough of them over the course of my career. 

Would I recommend writing a bunch of them? No, but they should still be covered. Knowledge is power, and if one wants to truly understand the subject of double stops and virtuosic string composition, they should be covered and not just sidelined during discussion. Does that mean they should be used over other choices or written a lot? Heck no! Luckily, Steelydane has summarized it up pretty well: they should be avoided. If they are to be used, you better know what you are doing and have a good reason behind it without a better alternative.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 11, 2018)

On a string arrangement I did not long ago where I had two cellos (excellent players) I gave the lower cello a double stopped root and 5th in the low register and might have given a double stop to the upper cello (which at least contained the 3rd.) It was drop dead gorgeous and growled exactly as intended on the widely spread ff chord in the strings. (Someone did mention an exception with the cellos above, with which I would have to agree.)


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## Piano Pete (Sep 11, 2018)

douggibson said:


> Interesting. Can you point me to some works for violin that feature extensive double stops with perfect 5th's that does not use open strings (aka...not the Berg violin concerto)



While I believe I have made it clear of the impracticality of fifths and have not yet once suggested they be extensively used in a work, here are some works/composers that I can think of—off the cuff—that have fifths in them. Of course, they occur in some pieces more than others, more often less due to previously covered reasons, but nonetheless, they exist in repertoire.

As such, there is the possibility to use them, and I personally feel that they should not be completely ignored as an absolute. Great care should be taken in these situations and require a solid understanding of the instrument(s) and context of where they would—more importantly should—be used if at all. I would always side on making the performer’s life easier when possible. Usually, this means not writing them. I feel that the composer’s in my meager selection have done an excellent job of incorporating them in where appropriate.

If I had to generalize, as I am not a fan of absolutes, they:

1) Occur much less than sixths, octaves, fourths, tritones, thirds, and extended intervals (for obvious practical reasons).

2) Typically occur within triple or quadruple stops.

3) Function in conjunction and/or juxtaposition with some form of other double stop interval or an alternating interval (typically the fifth moving to a tritone or sixth above an oblique root).

4) Are approached and left with enough preparation to get on and off them in tune.

5) Typically occur in combination with other open string interval combinations.​
Here is a quick list. I apologize if it is not extensive enough as I have not mentioned any solo or sonata examples, aside from the single partita. I am currently working in a bit of a deadline crunch. (Aren’t we all)? As such, I cannot dedicate a large amount of time to hunt for specific examples. What is mentioned in my list is mostly concerti, but there are some chamber-esque pieces as well. They contain several types of double stops, open and fingered. To be frank, fifths are still pretty sparse in these examples as well. 

An aside: I was gifted a collection of modern string quartets and solo violin works many years ago by a mentor, but to be honest, I cannot remember all the boxes’ contents nor the music’s. One could also argue whatever number of those compositions are one-offs, as they are all fairly aleatoric and abstract. What I can remember of the collection is that they are exceedingly difficult. Some were near impossible, which is probably why they were old and dusty when I got them.

Hopefully these compositions will be of aid to all. Aside from the topic at hand of string composition—particularly double stops—these are wonderful pieces of music to analyze and enjoy in all aspects!

- Bach Partita in B minor BWV1002.

(Bach utilizes fifths quite a bit in his music, but it should go without saying that one account for the differences between period and modern instruments. Would he have written them if exposed to today's instruments? Who knows. If you were looking for a composer who frequently does such a thing in their compositions, Bach’s your guy. In this case, frequently still means pretty infrequently.)​
- Ravel’s String Quartet in F.

(It has been a while since I have looked at this composition, but if I am not mistaken, there is a striking moment where the cello parks and rocks on a—more or less—F# chord with a fifth in the bass. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.)​
- Respighi’s Concerto Gregoriano

- Vaughan William’s Lark Ascending

(One of the biggest examples as to why someone may want fifths and octaves. However, sixths and octaves prevail.)​
- Bernstein’s Serenade for solo violin, string orchestra, harp, and percussion

- Michael Abel’s Delights & Dances for string quartet and orchestra

- Osvaldo Golijov’s Last Round

(This piece of music is just full of double stops and ridiculous string writing. If you really want to see complex string parts, this is it! Of course, it depends on what version you listen to, as it can be performed with an ensemble of nine, a small string orchestra, or even a full string orchestra. I have experienced it with the “dueling quartets + bass” on several occasions and a full string orchestra a few times. All versions are fantastic, but I prefer the chamber version. As a word amongst fellow composers, there is so much going on in the work that it literally becomes a bit of a mess at times. I do know of people who have left notes out during the chamber performances with none the wiser: something to keep in mind. It is well notated in the score where tutti, divisi, and even solo divisions are taken should the numbers be present. So, for those wondering about the differences in timbre, sound, and what happens if a composition is played with double/triple stop versus a section dividing, this work is concisely laid out and conceived for each scenario. There should be recordings on youtube reflecting each.)​
- Sibelius Violin Concerto, D minor

- Glazunov Violin Concerto, A major.

- Dvorak Cello Concerto

- Saint-Saens Cello Concerto



douggibson said:


> (aka...not the Berg violin concerto)



It's funny that you mentioned the Berg concerto, as that is something I have not visited in awhile. I adore it! In complete transparency, it was not even one that had crossed my mind when thinking of examples. It's been so long since I have studied it. I really should schedule some time to sit down with it again.


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## JohnG (Sep 11, 2018)

to return to the OP's original notion of "realistic orchestration," look at Ravel's scores and you will see quickly how to write for strings. He divides them all over the place, rather than asking for a lot of double stops.

Even if you only have 16 strings, or something small like that, they can execute a very large number of divisi and still sound full. It will sound a lot better, in general, than a lot of players trying double stops.

That said, if you want the _sound_ of double stops, that's kind of different. I personally think you get good results by breaking out a violin or viola as a soloist and having that / those players play them. Consider James Newton Howard's "Signs" score, which if I remember right has solo strings along with the section. I am pretty sure I remember double stops.


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## thesteelydane (Sep 11, 2018)

To be clear, I never said don't use fifths, only understand why they are almost always a challenge. My biggest point to non string players is that even the melodic interval of a fifth, when NOT DOUBLE STOPPED, in some cases poses exactly the same challenge as a double stopped fifth. And the only way to grasp why this is, is to get a rudimentary understanding of how string fingerings work - to that end I'm not a fan of lists and tables in orchestration books, because whether or not something is possible is irrelevant - it's whether you can get to it and away from it again that matters, and makes something either idiomatic, difficult or unplayable. 

And as I mentioned, if you have short, fat and stubby fingers, double stopped fifths are much less of a problem - provided you can get to it and away from it in an efficient manner. 

I'm happy we had this talk! It's been driving me crazy for years that no one seems to understand this, but hopefully that's about to change.


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## thesteelydane (Sep 11, 2018)

Dave Connor said:


> double stopped root and 5th in the low register


 That's generally no problem, and you can often safely write fifths in the low register on violin and viola as well. If it can be played with the 1st or 2nd finger in 1st position, I doubt anyone will have much trouble with it - but again, only if you can get to it and away from it efficiently.


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## Kubler (Sep 13, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Consider James Newton Howard's "Signs" score, which if I remember right has solo strings along with the section. I am pretty sure I remember double stops.



I confirm and I approve. _Signs_ has amazing strings sonorities


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## divabanana (Nov 25, 2018)

Apologies for adding to a seemingly finished thread but I was just reading through and thought to add a couple of things to the reasons already noted why a 5th is perhaps the most difficult interval to play in tune on a violin in case anybody is interested...

When you play a note on a string, by pressing it down onto the fingerboad you stretch the string.
Different makes/models of string are affected in differing amounts by this stretch - for example, a high tension steel core string will stretch at a different rate (in terms of pitch change) than a low tension perlon core, aluminium wound string. That is, a 2mm stretch of one string will result in a different amount of pitch change to a 2mm stretch of a different string.

Violinsts (and other string players) use a mix of strings for a huge number of reasons. With my violin, for example, if I use the same tension and structure string for all of them, the D string doesn't speak very clearly. If I use a higher tension G then the D speaks more clearly but that affects the tone of the A string so I also need to use a different type of A string to get a closer match in tone across the instrument.

The thickness and tension of strings obviously also has an impact on the pitch change to stretch ratio. An E string will change in pitch more than the G string when stretched the same amount.

Added to this, the height of adjacent strings above the fingerboard will most likely be slightly different even on the most well set up of instruments. (This is usually at least in part a deliberate thing for various boring reasons).

So not only do you have to contend with trying to place a single finger equally on 2 strings when the angle of the finger makes that difficult to do so, you must also compensate for differing effects of pitch change due to string stretch and different amounts of physical string stretch on those strings.

This problem is far less on a cello or double bass due to the length of the strings but is a real issue for violinists.

If I play a 5th and change the amount of pressure on each string the pitch change can be up to +/- a semitone on each string without moving my finger along the string, just by changing how much I'm pressing on one string compared to the other.

Another reason to avoid them for a single player is to do with tone quality.
When you place a finger on the string it should be curled over with the tip of the finger pressing onto the string.
The tip of the finger pressed firmly creates a fairly hard edge and produces the clearest sound because it allows the string to vibrate relatively unimpeded. If you place a finger either not firmly, or use the pad rather than the tip of the finger, you will get a rubbish sound which will not sustain because the fuzzy edge acts like a blanket on the string and stops it vibrating efficiently.
Now if you imagine double stopping - using 2 fingers means you can get 2 clearly defined notes because each finger can play in its tip. Using a single finger across 2 strings (like when playing a 5th) means you can't get that good tone because by necessity you are having to use more of the pad than the tip of the finger.
As you move out of 1st position, this problem increases because the strings physically get further apart and you have to use a 'flatter' finger more and more.


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 26, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> So writing realistically is not a priority for me but I'd like to know this in case I wanna do it in the future. I was wondering today if strings can play octaves on the same instrument. Apparently it's possible on a violin, but then I wondered what's the maximum distance between two notes on a double stop for each instrument? I would imagine for basses and cellos it's harder because of the largest distances between the "frets"? Does the same apply to their ranges, ie is a double stop narrower the higher up the fretboard you go?
> 
> Yes I know about divisi. Just curious about this, especially the octaves



Nao,

Excellent advice here so far. If I may, I'd like to refer you to 2 of my own pieces if you feel inclined to listen. These works are concert works, one atonal the other tonal, both performed live and utilising all manner of stops. You may find them interesting, but no sweat if you don't bother.
If you go to the link below you will find 2 scrolling score movies (the first two at the top of the page). At 8'50'' ish in the first movie (sonata for violin and piano - atonal-ish!) you will find perfect fifths tremeloes used as an effect and in the second movie (Partita - the tonal work), multiple stops were purposely used almost incessantly throughout the whole work for all 3 players (string trio). Mighrt be useful for you, at least to hear the effect of stop work in action and for real.

http://mikehewer.com/page-3/


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