# I've Been Ban on NS



## José Herring (May 18, 2005)

I've been ban on NS. It's rather unusual as they think that I was posting under a fake user name and account.

I find it odd that this happen at exactly the same day that I was criticizing Gary Garritan for intentionally making the live orchestr’ ²nG523c2030 150825718746cf6c097bf90.jpg   @ÿúg¶   ª	 D*nG467c5682   [email protected]þúh—   ,  î.nG53675a3d   [email protected]öúi»   3 |0nG57a46ae3 136623735547091bf9872d9.jpg [email protected]öúj»   µ Ä~nG5457aad3 121827218946a36d57dc2b1.jpg < @öúk½  A m {nGdc91398c 85778798646ab0a9d6ee0f.gif < @öúlŠ    ùŒnGd446cb47 1189746204741fc368b492.png N@öúmº   D ì–nG4b545532 ,http://www.bri


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## Marsdy (May 18, 2005)

I was told to reboot my modem/router everyday as it makes you less of a target for hackers etc. Don't know if this is true but I certainly get a new IP address whenever I do this.


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## jc5 (May 18, 2005)

josejherring said:


> I did an IP search and the only one with my address is me.
> 
> It's becoming really clear that they just didn't want me around anymore after I gave a pretty harsh criticism to the real vs. GPO demo.
> 
> ...



Really silly stuff to have banned you Jose - you had been starting many of the sort of threads that make forums thrive in recent weeks.
It has certainly been an 'eventful' month at NS... :?


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## José Herring (May 18, 2005)

Well I knew I was risking it by coming down on Gary for that demo. 
Something about that whole thing just smelled really fishy to me and I just couldn't believe all the Bravos on this one.

I mean it's one thing if somebody's writing an original piece of music and trying to find a good way to express new ideas, but for a piece that's 100 years old. I mean take the time to recorded it right fur cryin' out loud.

I never expected for everybody to agree with me and nobody even saw the post that got me banned because it was pulled in less than 2min.

The post that dropped the ax on me basically stated that I'd conducted several major symphony orchestras in my career. Houston, Vancouver, Louisville and Grand Rapids(the nicest group by far by the way). And, I've had arrangements of mine played by the Cincinnatti Pops orchestra. I then went on to say that imo even professional orchestras have misunderstandings on the basics of music. Like many people don't know the difference between an accent mark and a sfz mark. Or how to keep a phrase going in spite of breaks in the articulation, ect.

I then said that imo that the real vs. gpo demo had some of the same basic flaws.

That's that. 

I guess once they figure out that I wasn't talkin' out of my a s s that maybe my opinion might have some professional weight they canned me.

Well anyway, thanks for letting me vent my frustration. 

And, how do you reboot a cable/dsl modem? I unplugged it and plugged it in again and I still have the same IP address.

Cheers,

Jose


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## Marsdy (May 18, 2005)

Turn off the power and then turn it back on again.


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## Hardy Heern (May 18, 2005)

Jose,

I'm really sorry you've been banned. We were just having a good debate over at NS, but understand that my views are _totally _my own. I've always been straightforward and honest, as far as I've been able. Some have accused me of being an idealist......perhaps I am, I know I've been naive....but always genuine....What you read is what _*I *_am, no one else is pulling the strings!

From what you say it seems as if a mistake has been made about a double account. That really is bloody annoying, to say the least. 

Having said that, those who _*do *_have double accounts deserve what they get. I have absolutely no time for folk who mess around with these double accounts.....I don't know what twisted game they're playing, nor do I understand what perverse pleasure they derive from it. 

Jose, I just went back and read this in your post:-


_*The post that dropped the ax on me basically stated that I'd conducted several major symphony orchestras in my career. Houston, Vancouver, Louisville and Grand Rapids(the nicest group by far by the way). And, I've had arrangements of mine played by the Cincinnatti Pops orchestra. I then went on to say that imo even professional orchestras have misunderstandings on the basics of music. Like many people don't know the difference between an accent mark and a sfz mark. Or how to keep a phrase going in spite of breaks in the articulation, ect. *_

I knew you were a well qualified musician...because you said so, but I'm taken aback by your illustrious, and admirable, resume above. 

What puzzles me greatly, though, is why someone like you should be dirtying his hands, and wasting his time, by picking on an amateur hobbyist (like what I am  ) rather than encouraging him. It just doesn't make any sense to me......Dan is only a young lad whose produced a bloody good mockup with a low cost library. Just let him get on with it......or is you real gripe with Gary Garritan?

Frank


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## Marsdy (May 18, 2005)

So what punishment does Mr Chalk deserve for his multiple accounts? Personally I find his profiteering at the expense of sample users much more offensive than having multiple user accounts. Not sure there's any reason for having one user account at NS at the moment.


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## choc0thrax (May 18, 2005)

Developers have the double accounts for a few reasons- Mostly to give praise to demo's and announcements of the developer and to strongly defend the library when needed. Whenever there are arguements about the quality of libraries you see a lot of new people show up who seem to know a lot about the topic.


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## dcoscina (May 18, 2005)

Just read the infamous thread...GAWD, I'm going into diabetic shock. It really is like going to Disneyland when one ventures into the GPO forum where everything is "super thanks for asking". I wonder if Big Gay Al posts at that site .

Seriously though, it's all good and well to be excited about a demo or whatever but seriously, I have to side with Jose. As good as any sample orchestral library is, I have never heard a 100% completely realistic demo. The closest I think is the Jupiter demo on VSL. Even that has its weaknesses. Strings are the giveaway- trying to aproximate 48 individual players all of whom are playing slightly out (aka microtones) thereby creating a natural chorusing effect, is still not completely possible. I love EWQLSO and VSL to death but they are still not completely believable. Part of me hopes technology never quite gets there- otherwise who will be motivated to write for real musicians?

Seeing comments on that Dvorak thread such as I did, I cannot but help believe that GPO attracts and caters to those who are just starting out and those who haven't had the benefit of hearing what real orchestras sound like. That's probably an over generalization, but read the comments: these people should have their ears cleaned if they cannot tell the difference. Plain and simple.

As for the charge against multiple identities, well, the hypocracy on NSS is unprecendented. I have never seen such infantile, passive aggressive behaviour in response to one of Scott Rogers' comments a while back. He's long since left the thread but people still keep on getting their digs in. I think they need parental guidance on that board since it's clear it's a kindergarten class run amok there.


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## José Herring (May 18, 2005)

Hardy Heern said:


> What puzzles me greatly, though, is why someone like you should be dirtying his hands, and wasting his time, by picking on an amateur hobbyist (like what I am  ) rather than encouraging him. It just doesn't make any sense to me......Dan is only a young lad whose produced a bloody good mockup with a low cost library. Just let him get on with it......or is you real gripe with Gary Garritan?
> 
> Frank



I do have a slight gripe with Gary. I think he's a hustler. I went to school in New York so I've seen a lot of hustles in my day.

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## dcoscina (May 18, 2005)

*Goodness gracious*

I just checked the Dvorak thread at NSS. I would rebut in that forum but I extracated myself from that forum a month back so I cannot.

I find it completely immature that, rather than engage in a constructive dialogue on this board, GPO fans prefer to make references to things said on this post on their own forum. C'mon kids, grow up and speak your minds on this thread. Remember, Frederick won't ban you or censor you. Other perspectives are welcome. 

I listened to the piece by Dan again and it is pretty good. Dan wisely choose sounds from GPO that play to its strengths- winds and muted(?) strings. When married with the real piece, it's pretty seamless. And it was an interesting exercise. But I can hear intonation problems in the winds from the acoustic recording. The recording in question ain't the best one around. I'm not sure I buy the Garritan conspiracy theory but a stronger source recording should have been used. I have also heard readings of this piece where the brass play a bit louder hence you get a little buzz in their sound, something that GPO does NOT do well (and I'll bloody well keep on saying that because the brass are GPO's Achilles Heel IMO).

It's also interesting that Dan posted something on that thread that sounds remarkably similar to my general assessment on sampled libraries from my last post. I'm glad he is addressing the fact that NO library is quite there yet with respect to overall realism. It would do some of the GPO groupies some good to hear this coming from someone of authority.

As an aside, because I have been pretty harsh on GPO, it does offer a lot of bang for the buck. You get a version of Overture, a program I love, Cubasis, a decent enough sequencer although Tascam has moved to Cubase LE bundled with their US-122 and which has a lot more flexbility, and of course some nice performance controls. I'll concede that. I just get a bit hot and bothered when someone proclaims GPO to sound more realistic than EWQLSO Gold. that's just not informed.


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## SoundEngine.com (May 18, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> I was told to reboot my modem/router everyday as it makes you less of a target for hackers etc. Don't know if this is true but I certainly get a new IP address whenever I do this.



You'll need to cycle power on the router (or sign out of PPP and then sign back in) - you should be able to do this from the setup pages of the router.

Regards,

--SCP


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## José Herring (May 18, 2005)

SoundEngine.com said:


> Marsdy said:
> 
> 
> > I was told to reboot my modem/router everyday as it makes you less of a target for hackers etc. Don't know if this is true but I certainly get a new IP address whenever I do this.
> ...



Great Avatar!!!!.

Okay a few questions. What's the router and what's ppp?

Thanks,

Jose


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## SoundEngine.com (May 18, 2005)

Hey Jose.

A router is a piece of hardware that takes multiple ethernet connections an shares them onto a high-speed internet connection.

If you have only one computer and are directly connected to the Internet (via high speed connection or dial-up), this doesn't concern you.

PPP is point-to-point protocol. This is usually the method that computers talk to the Internet with dynamic IP configurations - like what I have on Yahoo! DSL. When I had Comcast Cable Internet in a previous location, I was given a fixed IP address, which I couldn't change.

Here is a Webopedia definition of PPP:

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/P/PPP.html

Regards,

--SCP

re: Avatar - thanks!


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## Frederick Russ (May 18, 2005)

Hey Jose - sorry man. It happens to the best of us. 

Well you know you have a home here. We're not the big guys on the block yet but we're growing daily - besides, I like our group better - not that I'm prejudiced or anything! 

Nice lineup of credits btw! Impressive.... looking forward to hearing more from you.


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## rJames (May 18, 2005)

Jose, A couple of things. You shouldn't be banned, although that's the badge of courage these days.

I stay out of any of those kind of discussions. Mostly, because I dont have opinions on quality of samples. I leave it up to the people with good ears. But also because things in print can be taken so wrong.

There's nothing to be gained by taking on Gary and GPO. When GPO was first released those discussions went on interminably (is that a word?). Flame wars between EWQL Silver and GPO. And Gary has been known to compare GPO favorably to any of the libraries.

That said, Gary is a businessman that has to support his product. He would be crazy to admit in a public forum that it doesn't sound perfect. EVen if it is a low priced tool. He's just not going to go there.


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## PaulR (May 19, 2005)

First of all Jose, I've been informed by a mutual friend that you have been banned from the NS forum. That is unfortunate and I of course probably only just got away with it myself, being a fairly early contributor to the thread in question.

I am personally sorry about this, because one has always enjoyed your inciteful and forthright views on music, thus expediting lively discussion, which is what it's all about.

Comparing real orchestral performances, however good or indifferent they may be, with a sampled performance at this point in technological advancement in this field, to me at least - is a complete waste of time and generally will remain a mystery.

It's about as interesting as comparing one sample library to another. I would have hoped and imagine that the NS forum would maybe rethink there view on your ban, and everyone else, in due course when things calm down a bit.

This VI forum for musicians is a youngish forum, but I'm sure that it will grow over time and many lively debates and childish, fun arguments about music and libraries will ensue. Hopefully, anyway. :D 

PR


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## rJames (May 19, 2005)

Hardy Heern said:


> What puzzles me greatly, though, is why someone like you should be dirtying his hands, and wasting his time, by picking on an amateur hobbyist (like what I am  ) rather than encouraging him. It just doesn't make any sense to me......Dan is only a young lad whose produced a bloody good mockup with a low cost library. Just let him get on with it......or is you real gripe with Gary Garritan?
> 
> Frank



Frank, I've always had positive interactions with you at NS so I'm not just adding fuel to the fire...but who was attacking who again??



Hardy Heern said:


> Jose, I don't know what's eating you, and others, about this but I've never heard such nonsense...I was going to say b*****ks.
> 
> I think I know the problem. You guys have practiced for n years and can still only play one instrument.....and perhaps not as well as you would like to sometimes. You come to a forum like this and you see Dvorak's New World Symphony (Symphony No. 9 in E minor), you then find that a young, untrained man has made a terrific rendition of this famous work with his computer and some $200 samples.....yeah, that's got to be it.......
> 
> Frank


It is quite qamazing to me how threads at an online forum can get so out of hand, mostly leaving the topic way behind. (in this thread the topic was how GPO sounds like a real orchestra-not whether DPDan can mock-up)


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## hv (May 19, 2005)

Been over at NS myself for about a year or so and all the recent banning over there is a little baffling. I compared the rules there and here and they don't seem all that different on the surface. Though there's no mention in the rules here of group buys or that paying advertisers are allowed to post adds in messages... I assume they're not.

Howard


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## José Herring (May 19, 2005)

Hey Fred,

How about running some ads in some of the mags like Mix or EM or others like was suggested?

I think the more people see this place the better it is for everybody and the more different developers will want to advertise here.

I'll open a thread soon to start discussing this topic.

Cheers,

Jose


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## José Herring (May 19, 2005)

rJames said:


> Frank, I've always had positive interactions with you at NS so I'm not just adding fuel to the fire...but who was attacking who again??
> 
> 
> 
> ...



rJames,

I think Frank's still mad at me because I responded to a comment that he made to one of the female members at NSS. I thought it was inappropriate.

And Frank,

If you are still upset about that then just know that we've all made inappropriate comments to women from time to time. It's that we have to be careful. We're so use to running into only men in this field that we forget that women can write great music too and should be supported with all the enthusiasm and help that we give our brother composer.

Jose


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## His Frogness (May 19, 2005)

Hey Jose,
I've generally avoided the discussions at NS that seem to revolve around the drama between developers and users. I actually haven't cared very much. I've never felt personally wronged by any moderator or representative and so I've been rather oblivious to the particulars.

After reading your post here however, it disturbs me greatly. The NS forums are active mostly out of the motivation of striving composers to get their music sounding real. There are not a lot of people there that have solid experience with live orchestras.

I was thinking just this morning how futile it is to gain any experience in orchestration with sampled libraries. Good orchestration seems to be the result of working with live musicians. I mean, you can write a bunch of parts for the instruments but that's hardly any different than writing more notes for a piano. It's knowing the potential of an instrument and how to get them all to work together in a way that sounds balanced that is the real art to orchestration. Just try and read Principles of Orchestration and apply it to EWQLSO. Good luck. (I'm just generalizing)

I guess what I'm getting at is that the wealth of knowledge you have is so much more valuable to the community than the opinions or rantings or comparisons of developers. It's such a gross injustice that they would ban you for simply applying your real-world musical experience in your posts. 

I hope you'll be here often so all of us newbs can continue to benefit from your experience. That's what a forum is for.


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## José Herring (May 19, 2005)

Thanks Sir Frogness,

Yes I know I can be a little opinionated at times. 

If I had any wishes for this forum it's that it doesn't bow down to the pressures of any one developer. We need places like this where people can meet and discuss things. It's important. You probably don't realize how far I've come just in listening to demos and discussing music and samples with the community here and at NS and at SOL.

My film career is finally starting to blossom after years of stalled attempts to get it off the ground. 

Well believe it or not I'm still kind of new to the whole internet thing especially blogs and if I've learned anything is that how you say things is as important as what you say.

I'll keep that in mind without sacrificing any opinion that I think might benefit somebody. I owe it to people to be honest with them. Just like you and the others have been fairly honest with me and I've grown a lot because of it.

Let's grow and learn.
:D 
Jose


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## Bruce Richardson (May 19, 2005)

Jose, I was informed of your departure from NothernSounds by Brady Wright, who kindly sent me a PM.

I am so sorry to hear it. You have been a polite, measured, and competent voice in the group, and I have enjoyed corresponding with you there.

I just wanted to say hello, and to also express appreciation to Frederick for hosting this site. It is nice to see so many familiar names here, some of whom I have not seen for a while. I am glad to see everyone still around.


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## choc0thrax (May 19, 2005)

Great post Thomas.


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## José Herring (May 19, 2005)

Bruce Richardson said:


> Jose, I was informed of your departure from NothernSounds by Brady Wright, who kindly sent me a PM.
> 
> I am so sorry to hear it. You have been a polite, measured, and competent voice in the group, and I have enjoyed corresponding with you there.
> 
> I just wanted to say hello, and to also express appreciation to Frederick for hosting this site. It is nice to see so many familiar names here, some of whom I have not seen for a while. I am glad to see everyone still around.



Bruce,

I'm glad you found this place. I value your opinion a great deal and I just did a killer mix for a film a lot of what made it possible are advice coming from your post. As well as lessons from another composer who I hope will join us here too--If you're reading GL come and join us here.

I'm dedicated to make this place something that NSS will never be. A forum where all people can reach there musical potential by the sharing of hard won information by composers.

I hope you post here often. Hurray!!!

Cheers,

Jose


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## Hardy Heern (May 20, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> So what punishment does Mr Chalk deserve for his multiple accounts? Personally I find his profiteering at the expense of sample users much more offensive than having multiple user accounts. Not sure there's any reason for having one user account at NS at the moment.



If Papa Chalk is messing about with this double account lark then I think that is absolutely pathetic, my Bath friend. In fact it's a great deal worse than posters doing it IMHO. IF this is true, he's not setting much of an example and has a damned cheek banning people for doing the same.

I was told off for using naughty words at NS. In my view the double identity is morally much much worse.

I just think the whole thing is crap.

Frank


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## Hardy Heern (May 20, 2005)

josejherring said:


> rJames said:
> 
> 
> > Frank, I've always had positive interactions with you at NS so I'm not just adding fuel to the fire...but who was attacking who again??
> ...


 
Actually, I'm not mad at anyone. I just like justice. When I heard the piece I wasn't being over analytical, I just thought it sounded good. When everyone started to attack the piece I then had to try and understand why. So, some of my 'retorts' were my efforts at working out why my ears thought it sounded pretty damn good (in a casual listen) versus those who thought it wasn't. My sense of justice was aroused when the heavy armour came out against Dan so I allied with him and popped a few mortar rounds back! I thought that Gary had hosted the piece which he does do for some of his users who haven't the knowledge/facilities. Maybe I'm being naive again and I can imagine all sorts of scenarios and conspiracy theories.

As a matter of interest, I've just suggested that a MIDI file is posted so that we (not you clever guys) can see the techniques used.

Also, trust me, regarding the female bit, I'm totally unaware of anything like that. I only recently realised that one of the posters was female and I don't think it was in that thread! To be honest I don't know what is being referred to!  

Regarding Gary, I think that some of his practices are a little over zealous and I do get irritated by some of the trivial posting which, if I was unkind, I would say only serve to build up post numbers. The other side of the coin, though, is that he works very hard generally and particularly at his marketing. In truth, there aren't that many core posters on his forum.

However, I was greatful when he brought out GPO 18 months ago (Silver was a week or two later-I'm glad I didn't have to make the choice) as it was terrific value for money. The trouble was I had been buying some Gigastudio libraries (whilst waiting GS3) and was on the point of purchasing the Prosonus or Advanced Orchestra when GPO came out. Since GPO though I went over to the Kontakt route.

I agree the winds are weak (horns are alright though) and I'm also not convinced about his new violin (yet) (I'm a synful fan- that also raised some strong opposing views....I tell you one thing....everyone's different!!). The only video demo I have heard had moments where I thought I heard the dreaded (for me) harmonica sound. Something which used to tarnish synthised violins in the good old days! 

I have since bought Gold, couldn't resist it, but haven't used any of this stuff as I don't seem to be able to put aside the time. I get annoyed at myself for spending so much time posting as this could be used for better purposes. The truth is that I got kind of addicted to it whilst waiting for GS3 and NS was my first exposure to a forum. NS really was good in those days and still has its moments now but there is too much sycophancy and hidden identities. I'm sorry to have lost the 'one site fits all' though as it absorbs even more time flitting from website to website. 

Apologies, I seem to have gone rambling off.........  

frank


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## PaulR (May 20, 2005)

Thomas_J said:


> The banning craze on NS sure is great advertisement for V.I. I think Frederick should take donations from users of this forum to pay for a one-page ad in Keyboard/Future Music/Computer Music/Virtual Instruments Magazine. Would be a great way of attracting some serious musicians interested in learning the truth about the libraries that are available.



Hehehe! That's a good idea Berg - the shit would really hit the fan then.

See to it at once Frederick! :D  :twisted:


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## Frederick Russ (May 20, 2005)

Thomas_J said:


> Thanks Choco. I think this was my absolute final rant on the topic  I hope this forum doesn't go all "flower power" on us.



...and what's wrong with flower power?


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## choc0thrax (May 20, 2005)

I'd do them.


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## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2005)

[quote="Thomas_J It used to upset me (paticularly when Kirk Hunter posted real violin demos under his solo strings demo section in attempt to fool his customers)...[/quote]

I don't know why you keep saying this. I asked Kirk about this and he said that the only time that happened was when he was selling a violin and used that for demos. 

Can you point to a specific demo with a name to substantiate your claim? 

Regarding praising yourself. As my late mother used to say, "Dont break your elbow."


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## Trev Parks (May 20, 2005)

Peter, at the risk of reminding myself what I penis I was for believing Kirk had discovered the next best thing to alchemy, here's a link to the thread if not the demo, which was pulled half way through discussion:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10819 (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... hp?t=10819)

It DID happen :shock: 8) :wink:


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## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2005)

BACK TO SUBJECT AT HAND - 

Gary is definitely hyper about GPO. He certainly works hard. But even in a review I wrote to an educator several months ago recommeding GPO, I still got this LONG e-mail about why GPO was the equal of Vienna, unique features, etc. 

It certainly has unique features, and I don't see anything "evil" about saying it's a great intro package, because for a lot of people it's a great place to start. And I'm sure a lot will just stay with it because it's complete enough for their needs. 

But I would have a difficult time comparing GPO directly to Gold or another larger package. But overall I think what Gary has done is a real achievement and it's something he should feel proud of.


----------



## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2005)

Trev Parks said:


> Peter, at the risk of reminding myself what I penis I was for believing Kirk had discovered the next best thing to alchemy, here's a link to the thread if not the demo, which was pulled half way through discussion:
> 
> http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10819 (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... hp?t=10819)
> 
> It DID happen :shock: 8) :wink:



Well, it's not my job to defend Kirk Hunter. But I read all the posts and all I saw were accussations, and then someone assumed the accusations were the truth (which beyond someone's opinion, was never verified). Unfortunately, I also saw that Kirk didn't respond. 

And at the same time, I have to agree, the debate could have been ended with a MIDI file, a list of articulations, etc. 

I'll ask again.


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## choc0thrax (May 20, 2005)

Well I remember the demo's and they were realllyyy real, a lot more real sounding than his other demo's. After the accusations he pulled the mp3's and never responded. Had they actually been his sampled violin i'm sure he wouldn't have pulled the mp3's.


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## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Well I remember the demo's and they were realllyyy real, a lot more real sounding than his other demo's. After the accusations he pulled the mp3's and never responded. Had they actually been his sampled violin i'm sure he wouldn't have pulled the mp3's.



This is the first time I've seen this thread before. I've heard about it, but never saw it. Again, I can see how people get to their conclusions. Thanks for the input.


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## Simon Ravn (May 20, 2005)

Peter Alexander said:


> [quote="Thomas_J It used to upset me (paticularly when Kirk Hunter posted real violin demos under his solo strings demo section in attempt to fool his customers
> 
> I don't know why you keep saying this. I asked Kirk about this and he said that the only time that happened was when he was selling a violin and used that for demos.
> 
> ...




Peter, I decided to keep the demo - I still have it, and it was used to promote his solo violins library. And oddly enough, it was removed quickly, when Thomas (I believe it was) pointed this out on NS... But Kirk is not the only one doing this false advertising. Donnie recently did it with a harp demo.


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## Trev Parks (May 20, 2005)

Peter Alexander said:


> choc0thrax said:
> 
> 
> > Well I remember the demo's and they were realllyyy real, a lot more real sounding than his other demo's. After the accusations he pulled the mp3's and never responded. Had they actually been his sampled violin i'm sure he wouldn't have pulled the mp3's.
> ...



It was listed as a demo on a demo page that was being used to promote the new library. I was so impressed I emailed him about it as it seemed knees, torso, head and shoulders over the other demos on the page (well, it was real - so of course!) and he said it took forever to mock-up, not being aware that it was being discussed at that same time on NS. Its difficult to draw a positive conclusion, although maybe it was that he just put the demo up by mistake when trying to sell his fiddle.

Back then I was relatively new to using acoustic samples in my music and was bowled by the quality of then emerging libraries like the VSL stuff, so I was imagination open to astonishing things. Now, I'm pretty seasoned, using them day in day out, and it seems it was a bit of a con trick he was trying to pull. Not that it bothers me anymore, mind you.


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## RickD (May 20, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> Turn off the power and then turn it back on again.



Don't you have to have a router to get a different IP? I thought it was the router that generated the different IP's.

Rick


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## Marsdy (May 20, 2005)

RickD said:


> Marsdy said:
> 
> 
> > Turn off the power and then turn it back on again.
> ...



Don't know Rick. I have a combined router/modem and all I know is that whenever I power cycle it I get a new IP which my ISP assigns.


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## Simon Ravn (May 20, 2005)

Peter Alexander said:


> choc0thrax said:
> 
> 
> > Well I remember the demo's and they were realllyyy real, a lot more real sounding than his other demo's. After the accusations he pulled the mp3's and never responded. Had they actually been his sampled violin i'm sure he wouldn't have pulled the mp3's.
> ...



Yeah - people with good ears are actually able to come to these conclusions fairly easily I WONDER why Kirk removed the demo...


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## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> Peter Alexander said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="Thomas_J It used to upset me (paticularly when Kirk Hunter posted real violin demos under his solo strings demo section in attempt to fool his customers
> ...



When I produce stuff, we DON'T do that kind of thing. There won't be ANY BS on the Concert Orchestra stuff. Even though not everyone liked them (cough sputter), the first demos I posted were dry, and then with reverb. Again, no games. 

I can't speak for any other developer, but I have a Fortune 500 background, so I know what the FTC guidelines are, basically, and I adhere to that. 

I'm aggressive because I LOVE to compete. I thoroughly enjoy it. I want to win on skill and ability, not deception. 

Well, thanks for the input. Hang on to that demo. I may want to hear it some time.


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## Trev Parks (May 20, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> Yeah - people with good ears are actually able to come to these conclusions fairly easily I WONDER why Kirk removed the demo...



People who use samples are able to come to those conclusions easily. I almost pushed the buy button because I didn't know better back then.


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## Simon Ravn (May 20, 2005)

Trev Parks said:


> Simon Ravn said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah - people with good ears are actually able to come to these conclusions fairly easily I WONDER why Kirk removed the demo...
> ...



I don't agree on that. There are plenty of people (just take a look at NS, GPO forum for example) using samples who have no clue what they are doing, what samples can do and what they can't do.


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## Trev Parks (May 20, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> I don't agree on that. There are plenty of people (just take a look at NS, GPO forum for example) using samples who have no clue what they are doing, what samples can do and what they can't do.



Well, I'm not going to argue with that. All I'm saying is that if you don't really use samples (or even have much know how as to how they work) then when a demo's posted that's supposed to be legit, you believe the developer. Its easy to understand it now as I've bought most of the big libraries and spend 8 odd hours a day with them and know their weaknesses.

My arguement is that Kirk was leading a newbie by the nose. Back then I thought it wasn't something to be pissed about and din't think anything else of it until it was mentioned the other week. Now I look back it looks pretty scamy.


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## SoundEngine.com (May 20, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> RickD said:
> 
> 
> > Marsdy said:
> ...



That's because your router logs back into your ISP via PPP automatically (same here on Yahoo! DSL).

Regards,

--SCP


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## dcoscina (May 20, 2005)

Peter Alexander said:


> BACK TO SUBJECT AT HAND -
> 
> Gary is definitely hyper about GPO. He certainly works hard. But even in a review I wrote to an educator several months ago recommeding GPO, I still got this LONG e-mail about why GPO was the equal of Vienna, unique features, etc.



You have got to be kidding. Really? Hey, I'm all lovey dovey about EWQLSO Gold (seriously) but I can still take a step back and acknowledge that the current libraries cannot touch VSL in some areas- the performance tool legato/repetition samples in particular. I've got a legato horn section patch that is the closest thing to the real deal that I've ever heard.

Then again, there are some samples in VSL that I don't think are quite as good as EWQLSO. So there. But these two libs are in the stratosphere compared to GPO. And if Gary honestly believes his product is on par with $3000 libs, well, either two things: 1/ he must get his ears flushed immediately. or 2/ he's gone mad with power that he's blinded by pure subjectivity and can no longer objectively give credit where credit is due.

But who knows, perhaps GPO Advanced will kick severe butt and all of us will be caught with our collective feet in our mouths. Hey, I'm all for inexpensive totally awesome sounding orchestral libraries.


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## choc0thrax (May 20, 2005)

Or perhaps Gary just realizes that acknowledging that his library is not the best isn't exactly the smartest business move... What would you do if you were in his place and your income depends on how many copies of GPO you sell...


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## Waywyn (May 20, 2005)

yep, choco is right. gary would never say that his lib isn't really the best, but on the other hand there are a lot of hobby guys out there ... and by playing around a little bit with the instruments and creating some tracks real fast and then with an "awesome" critic of gary himself when posted some hobby 4 tracks tunes, they are surely blinded ...

i mean surely gpo sells a lot of copies and i think it is the cheapest complete orchestra library out there, but if i would be a hobby guy playing around with some samples for the first time ever (and still would work on one pc) i would also of course be amazed by the sound etc. ... so you see how the quite big amount of copies come together


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## synergy543 (May 20, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> But Kirk is not the only one doing this false advertising. Donnie recently did it with a harp demo.


I thought this was the case with Donnie's flute demo until..... 

I challenged him, he sent me the MIDI file which identically matched the source demo. I was really impressed. He sent me several other MIDI files of his demos as well.

Just for the record.


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## choc0thrax (May 20, 2005)

Maybe you should ask for the harp midifile.


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## Simon Ravn (May 20, 2005)

synergy543 said:


> Simon Ravn said:
> 
> 
> > But Kirk is not the only one doing this false advertising. Donnie recently did it with a harp demo.
> ...



Oh I challenged him multiple times with the harp and he went on ignoring me It is a real recording....


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## synergy543 (May 20, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Maybe you should ask for the harp midifile.


Which harp demo are you referring to? The best one I heard is Debussy's Prelude and it sounds quite plausible to me. You can tell because the harp has rather extreme volume differences from string to string which is a hallmark of much of his programming style. I think it works well for percussion as it makes it sound more realisitic with the variations. However, with Harp it doesn't work quite as well as I prefer a smoother transition from string to string.

Or maybe you were referring to something else?

What I want to know is where in hell the frickin clarinet sustains came from? Donnie do you have clarinet sustains? 

I want my clarinet sustains. But sadly, even here as everywhere else, Donnie is not allowed to reply. Why not leave the childish games over on NSS? Lets get some answers. Its the best way to resolve the problems for everyone. Customers and Donnie included.

Gee, even Piet (Re-peat) has been saying some nice words about DC Studio libraries over on Sonikmatter. I never thought I'd see that day!

And griping aside, I must say that many of Donnie's woodwinds are far superior to anything else I have. They have a lot of character. And with a little TLC, tuning and velocity adjustments they're are really some great samples in there.

See, I'm an equal-opportunity basher


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## choc0thrax (May 20, 2005)

I don't remember which Harp demo it was, i'm sure Simon knows.


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## Simon Ravn (May 20, 2005)

It wasn't a demo of any known composition. Just "playing around" on the harp - lots of strums, glisses etc.


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## Hans Adamson (May 20, 2005)

After the flute demo I am not so sure that the harp demo must have been a fake. I don't think it should be assumed, or asserted here as long as Donnie is unable to respond. 

It wouldn't surprise me if Donnie's pride stood in the way for giving up the midi-file for the harp demo. He is a talented guy, although full of contradictions. I wish he could clean up his act and get back here.


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## dcoscina (May 20, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Or perhaps Gary just realizes that acknowledging that his library is not the best isn't exactly the smartest business move... What would you do if you were in his place and your income depends on how many copies of GPO you sell...



I realise that. But it's one thing to declare your product as an excellent library outright- fine. No probs. I would be surprised if he didn't. But Gary comparing his GPO to VSL is like Hyundai comparing their Tiburon to Porche's 911 Turbo. The Tiburon is a very nice sports car. Lots of bang for the buck. But it's simply not in the same class as the Porsche and Hyundai wouldn't be dumb enough to market their vehicle by comparing to something like a Porsche or Mercedes.


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## Herman Witkam (May 20, 2005)

synergy543 said:


> What I want to know is where in hell the frickin clarinet sustains came from? Donnie do you have clarinet sustains?
> 
> I want my clarinet sustains. But sadly, even here as everywhere else, Donnie is not allowed to reply. Why not leave the childish games over on NSS? Lets get some answers. Its the best way to resolve the problems for everyone. Customers and Donnie included.
> 
> ...



Now how about the whole missing Eb clarinet 

I agree that some of the DC woods are really great. The bassoon (although having a HF noise) sounds better than anything else I've got (Westgate, Xsample, VGS), and the bass clarinet has some really powerful staccatos. The FX are great, although I think the flute and piccolo notes are by far too "airy" sounding in their higher regions.


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## rJames (May 20, 2005)

dcoscina said:


> But Gary comparing his GPO to VSL is like Hyundai comparing their Tiburon to Porche's 911 Turbo. The Tiburon is a very nice sports car. Lots of bang for the buck. But it's simply not in the same class as the Porsche and Hyundai wouldn't be dumb enough to market their vehicle by comparing to something like a Porsche or Mercedes.



I'm not here to defend Gary, but that is exactly what the car companies do. I remember wokring on a show for Mazda or Honda I forget which, where they compare ..."and it has more luggage space than a Rolls Royce Corniche."

It's true...and the comparison is drawn. Some idiot actually thinks this car is superior to a Corniche.


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## José Herring (May 20, 2005)

Yeah, I have a cable modem. Everytime I try to get a new IP address in the Dos Shell it reasigns me my old IP address.


I remember the Kirk Hunter vln demo. I was new to samples and I was doing a quick study to find the best ones. I heard the sample demo and I immediately thought, "oh, that's the real thing. Wonder why he did that? I'd like to hear the library." I didn't even give it a second thought. I'm so naive.



Jose


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## synergy543 (May 20, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Yeah, I have a cable modem. Everytime I try to get a new IP address in the Dos Shell it reasigns me my old IP address.
> Jose


Evil intentions eh? :twisted: OK, here's a recipe...

I'm with Comcast and they said you have to unplug and let it sit for maybe an hour before it will reassign you a fresh new IP. If you just unplug and reboot the cable modem, often you'll just get the same IP. 

Also if you have a router, there might be a setting for a MAC address which you could change. This makes the cable company think its seeing another device other than your computer or the same router. Just change one of the numbers and reboot. 

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MAC_address.html

Maybe more than you want to know but...you asked. :lol:

See you "around" :D


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 20, 2005)

Fixed IPs usually cost extra (because you can then set up a server and access it over the internet), so you're in luck.


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## José Herring (May 20, 2005)

synergy543 said:


> josejherring said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I have a cable modem. Everytime I try to get a new IP address in the Dos Shell it reasigns me my old IP address.
> ...



Thanks for the info.

No I'm not planning on doing anything sinister. Just I hate the fact that those J a c k a s s e s got the better of me. Blind sided me and then lied to me inorder to protect their own legal a s s.

I did my research and found that it is illegal to ban somebody from a blog who hadn't violated any of the rules. But I know that if I filed a complaint somewhere and it got anywhere that all NSS would have to do is fake a bunch of post under my name. Which is something that they threatened to do oh so subtely in an email I got in response to my banning. Yeah, it's been ugly.

I said that I thought my unjust banning was a civil matter because they cut me off of some communication lines that I had started to establish for my business and that I was in communication with people whose products I use to make money with through this forum. Their response went like this: Don't threaten us with legal action. We're in constant contact with our lawyers on a daily basis. We have all your post including the deleted ones. 

Now that put me off just a bit because I never deleted any of my post. :shock: I didn't even know you could delete post until about a few days before the banning and I hadn't even had the opportunity to delete one yet!!!

So basically I took it as this: You make a fuss and we'll produce this "evidence" against you. 

This all took place after I asked via email for one post that they claimed was by me that was under this imaginary doulbe account. Nothing. At first I thought it was an honest mistake. Then I realized that it was a railroad.

Just when you think you're over it, I get sucked back in.

Oh well, just keep swimming. :D 

Jose


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## Aaron Sapp (May 20, 2005)

I find it curious that Donnie doesn't have the harp demo on his site anymore. I asked Kirk for the midi file for that violin demo, but unfortunately - he misplaced it.

I remember the first time I saw something like this was with Dan Dean's brass library years ago. There was an actual solo trumpet performance in a solo brass library demo. I thought that was a bit odd.

I wish there was some proof that the harp demo was real/fake - I wanted to buy it, but after the demo was taken down...


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## synergy543 (May 21, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> No I'm not planning on doing anything sinister. Just I hate the fact that those J a c k a s s e s got the better of me. Blind sided me and then lied to me inorder to protect their own legal a s s.


I was just kidding Jose. 

I don't think there's anyting sinister about discussing music and sampling. And blocking a persons IP is just plain mean. The best I can guess is there are some emotional growing pains as they "downsize" from the loss of the entire EWQLSO group and you got caught in the political cross-fire. I wouldn't take it too seriously but yeah it must be frustrating. Particularly since they're talking about you over there - it doesn't seem fair - but then I feel that way about Donnie being banned from here as we discuss about him. I even asked why they didn't ban me instead of you? I guess they have to have somebody to battle on Friday afternoons.

Along with the beauty of the internet there is an ugly side too. Forums and lists give certain individuals a sense of empowerment that often gets abused. You'll notices certain types of individuals gravitate towards postions of power. Now clearly there is something wrong with Frederick here as he doesn't seem to be exhibiting any of these toxic symptoms. We'd better keep an eye on him. :wink: 

In the meantime, enjoy the flame warriors:

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/admin.htm (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warr ... /admin.htm)

Happy surfing with your new IP!


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## re-peat (May 21, 2005)

Yes, I've been saying some good things about Donnie's libraries for no other reason that they are, in fact, very good. I agree 100% with what Herman says about the DC woodwinds: wonderful bassoon - the best I've heard - and a great bassclarinet. Oboe and English horn are also eminently useable. A shame about the airy chiffs in the flute's higher register though and the clarinet, well, that is alas almost completely useless.
Good as they are, the libraries are still noticeably unfinished and often require substantial editing to make them fully useable. There's also still more than a few samples missing and some of the programming is just a bit awkward.

About that harp demo: one of the samples that comes with the DC VenusHarp sounds like this: http://users.pandora.be/re-peat/DCHarp_sample.mp3 This is just ONE sample. If I'm not mistaken, that's a fragment of the harp solo from Rimsky-Korsakov's Cappriccio Espagnol. Rather bizarre why Donnie would leave this in the finished library as it indeed raises all sorts of suspicions regarding the believability of some of his demo material.
Having said that, the VenusHarp is also a splendid library, fake demos or not. It's definitely my harp of choice at this moment (and that's saying something I think, knowing that I also have the EWQLSO Gold, the VSL harp which comes with Kontakt2, the Advanced Orchestra harp and the XSample harp).

Look, I never had any doubts about Donnie's superior talent as a soundware developer. I've praised his talent all along (even when our conflict was at its ugliest) and I still do so today, in all sincerity and without any sarcasm. But the fact remains that he is without a doubt also the most dishonest and unreliable character I have ever done business with. But hey, let's not drag that unpleasant episode out in the open again.


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## Trev Parks (May 21, 2005)

josejherring said:


> I remember the Kirk Hunter vln demo. I was new to samples and I was doing a quick study to find the best ones. I heard the sample demo and I immediately thought, "oh, that's the real thing. Wonder why he did that? I'd like to hear the library." I didn't even give it a second thought. I'm so naive.
> 
> 
> 
> Jose



I'm guessing you mean the opposite. But my ears are evidently crap and I've got gullible painted on my forehead so I'm off to join the armed forces


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## Simon Ravn (May 21, 2005)

Hans Adamson said:


> After the flute demo I am not so sure that the harp demo must have been a fake. I don't think it should be assumed, or asserted here as long as Donnie is unable to respond.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if Donnie's pride stood in the way for giving up the midi-file for the harp demo. He is a talented guy, although full of contradictions. I wish he could clean up his act and get back here.



 It is real, trust me. And it was clear in Donnies behaviour that something fishy was going on


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## Simon Ravn (May 21, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> I find it curious that Donnie doesn't have the harp demo on his site anymore. I asked Kirk for the midi file for that violin demo, but unfortunately - he misplaced it.
> 
> I remember the first time I saw something like this was with Dan Dean's brass library years ago. There was an actual solo trumpet performance in a solo brass library demo. I thought that was a bit odd.
> 
> I wish there was some proof that the harp demo was real/fake - I wanted to buy it, but after the demo was taken down...



Of course it's real/fake. It's so obvious when you really take a good listen.


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## Simon Ravn (May 21, 2005)

Re-peat. Interesting, but this is not the "demo" in question. I don't think the one I am talking about is even posted as a demo at Donnies site - he posted it here on VI some time ago.


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## Bruce Richardson (May 21, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> I remember the first time I saw something like this was with Dan Dean's brass library years ago. There was an actual solo trumpet performance in a solo brass library demo. I thought that was a bit odd.



There was nothing "odd" about it.

I produced that demo, so let me make the air absolutely clear. I originally produced it with Dan's woodwind library, and with Quantum Leap Brass.

Since there was no solo trumpet available (then or now) which sounds remotely like a solo trumpet, I chose to play the solo myself. To me, the end result of the line sounding right was much more important than making the demo "100% samples." Besides, I am a trumpet player and I like to play my horn. As you all know, it's hard enough to fight samples into sounding musical when there is some cover. The spotlight is not the ideal location for sample trickery.

Anyway...

A good deal of time after that, Dan came out with his solo brass library. I thought I would do a quick substitution of his brass samples for the Quantum Leap samples, so that he could have a version which was produced completely with his samples rather than a mix.

It never occurred to me that I would need to replace the trumpet solo...and suddenly what was my ARTISTIC decision became some sort of huge scandal with people screaming bloody murder about Dan Dean trying to "fool" people. It was ugly and stupid, and even though I am the sole person who knows the absolute truth of that demo, people actually accused ME of lying about it.

In fact, and this goes largely to the subject at hand, I never IMAGINED that any musician worth his weight would think anything about it. Hell, if a person cannot tell real from fake, then what has this world come to? All this talk of "realism" is hogwash. Samples sound like samples, and that is absolutely OK. There is no way that a sampled piece spiritually sounds like an orchestra, because it is not an assemblage of individual human wills pulling together for a common purpose. It's like comparing a plastic flower to a real one. There are some amazing things one can do with plastic. A person can appreciate the skill used to make a plastic flower look like a real one...or really better yet, a totally SURREAL one. A person can appreciate the fact that someone with skill can make a plastic flower which can fool someone, even at a close distance. But the plastic flower will never be a real flower, it cannot be, and should not be. Real flowers should be real flowers. And plastic flowers should be the most amazing plastic flowers they can be--they should not just try to be real flowers, they should push the envelope of what only a plastic flower could achieve!!!! They should "be all that they can be," to steal the US Army's tired old line.

I keep trying to engage in that discussion at NorthernSounds, and I just erase everything I write, because I know that if I get started, I won't stop. And again, I would like to thank Frederick for his time and trouble in establishing this forum. I will, in fact, be hanging out here more, and probably there a lot less. I just cannot take it any more, it is very hard for me to keep quiet about how I feel, and it would only be a matter of time before I get myself banned.

And I think that is sad, when a condition exists where people cannot be artistically honest--even in a polite and diplomatic way--without fear of being removed from the community. It creates a condition where artistic honesty is secondary, which is exactly the situation I have been screaming about for years in the sampling business. The cart is now dragging the horse. I think it is very cynical, to have this business that would rather propagate half-truths and hype than to be artistically honest about what these tools are really useful for, and how they really compare. When we lose that basic honesty, and it gets replaced with all this marketing BS, then how are we any better than Wal Mart? Why should anyone attempt to have integrity when there are so many people willing to abandon it, and to just tap dance and smile for the cash.

It really eats at me.


----------



## Bruce Richardson (May 21, 2005)

It also gets me thinking, that I actually had a lot more fun in the 80' and 90's with my racks of synths and keyboards.

All I worried about then was sounding cool. "Realism" never entered my mind. Yet I still made a very good living.

We have come such a long way... :roll:


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## Frederick Russ (May 21, 2005)

Thanks for the vote of confidence Bruce - and welcome to VI man! Your postings have always been helpful and I congratulate both you and King (Ashif) for your recent upgrades to writers for Virtual Instruments Magazine. (By the way I also got into the act and interviewed Eric Lindemann at Synful while at NAMM and developed a short article from that talk for VI Mag.)

VI's motto is musicians helping musicians. It's kind of hard to be helpful when we're not allowed to be authentic and give honest appraisals. Because VI's moderation style is less intrusive this occasionally makes for strong disagreements but its a process which always seems to resolve itself. Anyway, I've noticed that musicians/composers have quite a lot to say and are entitled to their own opinions. Personally I have a lot of respect for those who are authentic and can give a reasonably interesting debate regardless of whether or not I agree with them.

On to other things. Regarding Donnie, for the record, the VI moderation team is earnestly waiting for Donnie to make good on DC sample libraries promised to paying customers both on and off the site. Some of them had been waiting for 6-8 months, have had their correspondence ignored and when communication did ensue there was a liberal momentum of giving excuses rather than sending the product. Many of these customers were in the process of initiating lawsuits - do we blame them? To protect VI members the moderation team voted unanimously to temporarily suspend DC until the issues of unfilled orders could be resolved. 

To quell any rumor, DC wasn't suspended for the harp demo  To date no one has seen the midi file. Regardless, my personal opinion is that Donnie _could be_ a major contender in the sample libraries business - he definitely has the talent, but has some unfinished business and business practices that need to be squarely addressed before we can bring him back.


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## Marsdy (May 21, 2005)

I dunno Bruce. Some of these mock ups are getting SO close it's scary compared with what people were doing only a year ago. I would imagine that most of the people would be fooled most of the time, let alone in the context of a TV show, movie or computer game. 

With regards to NS. The more people contribute to NS, the more Papa, (or is it msimon, I can't remember?) is legitimized and can use NS as a personal cash cow. Personally I've long since had enough of his barely comprehensible rantings. I'm quite happy not having one NS account, let alone multiple ones. The place has long since lost is validity as a forum for balanced discussion unless you happen to be a GPO acolyte. I'm still a frequent visitor there but only because it's like a car crash, you just can't help but look at the carnage!


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## PaulR (May 21, 2005)

Bruce Richardson said:


> Hell, if a person cannot tell real from fake, then what has this world come to? All this talk of "realism" is hogwash. Samples sound like samples, and that is absolutely OK. There is no way that a sampled piece spiritually sounds like an orchestra, because it is not an assemblage of individual human wills pulling together for a common purpose.



Of course it doesn't matter if samples don't sound like a real orchestra - why is this supposed to matter? A lot of the problem is - writers should concentrate on writing and forget about realism - what is realism in the first place? I agree Bruce and have always said so.

You can make sound as 'real' as you like, but if the writing's crap, no one is going to care if it sounds real - in the professional world, the buyers are either going to like it or not like it and they won't care a damn about realism.
Since when has a movie or tv programme ever been real - even a tv documentary. This realism thing has gone beyond a joke.

Back to the FA Cup final.


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## Marsdy (May 21, 2005)

Paul

If that's the case then we might as well all use GM modules or GPO! 

If two composers of equal ability are pitching for the same job then the one expertly using VSL/EWQL/SAM etc. is going get the work. The guy expertly using GPO or a GM module is going to be serving freedom fries in Burger King! 

The cup final looks like penalties BTW :roll:


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## PaulR (May 21, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> Paul
> 
> If that's the case then we might as well all use GM modules or GPO!
> 
> ...



Whew! Man U Bucaneers were robbed - not that I give a s**t. :D 

No, Marsdy, I think you're missing my point - most writers with half a brain are going to get a good enough sound with top class sample libraries and VST's etc these days. When it doesn't sound any good is usually down to the writing - it can sound rubbish even with good sample skills.

No, serious pros these days aren't going to be using a GM module very much in reality. Anyone who can write but is maybe technically challenged using computer libraries and samples, will get someone in to help them if they have any sense.

It's the same thing as getting an orchestrator when you actually want something to sound 'real' and real players get involved, depending on budget. Even then, orchestration can be learned - it's writing the stuff that needs to be orchestrated in the first place that's difficult. :cry: 8) :lol:


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## Bruce Richardson (May 21, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> If that's the case then we might as well all use GM modules or GPO!
> 
> If two composers of equal ability are pitching for the same job then the one expertly using VSL/EWQL/SAM etc. is going get the work. The guy expertly using GPO or a GM module is going to be serving freedom fries in Burger King!



But, I am not so sure that is true, commercially or artistically. It only becomes true when orchestral emulation is the gig you're looking for. And in reality, that is the very smallest percentage I can imagine of the totality of work to be produced--again, either on artistic or commercial merits.

So, for me, I just keep coming back to this cart-before-the-horse mentality that makes this concept of "realism" such a holy grail. I have seen this repeat so damn many times, you know? Man, I remember when big-chassis analog synths were "almost there." There is this constant state of "almost there." Yet people live and die and have meaningful careers, and have had them throughout the entire history of "almost there."

We will forever be "almost there." The most memorable artists are the ones who do something totally unexpected with the tools they hold in their hands at this very moment. Those are the ones we remember. The "almost there" masses (of which I am not sure I have escaped) will forever and always be almost there.


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## lux (May 21, 2005)

Bruce Richardson said:


> Marsdy said:
> 
> 
> > If that's the case then we might as well all use GM modules or GPO!
> ...



I find myself discussing about it with friends very often. I agree that the "realism" holy grail can really take off the road, and while we are here trying to adjust our f***ing three machines template, there plenty of people finding a job with older and more traditional methods.

But...somehow I like samples. So I found my personal idea, that unfortunely stopped me from buying more libraries, for now: I think that, *if there are not so evident artifacts*, most of times good recorded products have same probability of finding a job than months-passed pieces with tera libs.
Even if directors, manager are into music, most of them couldnt recognize gpo from Vsl pro, I'm still convinced of that, expecially when they evaluate demos.

Another thing, as Bruce pointed, is when i already got a gig and want to avoid hiring real players, or when the gig IS finding realism.

Luca


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 21, 2005)

You know, I have to interrupt and ask Jose one question. It's really none of my business, but I'm nosy.

Did you use post different identities at NS? Do you have a less polite alter ego?

If so, it's not fair to blame it on Gary; if not, then why the heck not just write to Papa Chalk and say that there was a mistake?

Both Papa Chalk and Gary have denied that your criticism had anything to do with your getting banned. And they would, of course, but I'd really like to know the truth.


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## José Herring (May 21, 2005)

I was just finishing up a demo yesterday using EWQLSO gold. It was sounding really good. For the Violin solo I used samples. The notes I wrote didn't sound good with that vln sample. I would have switched but I only have that one solo vln. So guess what. I found the notes that did sound decent on that sample and changed what I wrote to fit that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm coming to the realization that it's just another medium of music communication. The samples have to sound good. They can't sound cheap. They can't sound artificial. But, in the end you're after the same thing. An organic sounding live breathing performance of whatever you're writing. That's the end of it in my opinion. I don't think that it sounds "real". It just doesn't sound fake. If a real orchestra then played it. It would sound similar but I doubt it would be the same. Nor does it really matter in the end.

So, I think Mardsy and Bruce are both quite correct and are actually saying the same thing in a lot of ways. How good can you make those plastic flowers look? Well if it fools people that its real and you have to take a really close look at it. Then as an artist the guys done a really great job. On the other hand. Nothing beats a great rose that was well grown. 

So plasitc might work in an office. But it ain't working at your wedding. It depends on the context and both are viable great solutions depending on the situation.

Cheers,

Jose

P.S. If Papa is slandering me in anyway on NS please let me know. Send the quotes to [email protected] It's still a forum where a lot of professionals visit and to muddy my name using his lies is just not okay. So anything that says that I was intentionally trying to deceive anybody is just pure hogwash and I need to know about it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 21, 2005)

He's not slandering you at all. You mentioned that was the accusation in the beginning of this thread.

I'm asking the question straight out: did you use an additional alias to post? To me that's an important question, because the assumption is that you were banned for what you said about GPO.

I'm not taking sides, and I'm certainly not a fan of banning people as a means of moderating a forum - that should be reserved for extreme cases - but I think it's an important question nonetheless.

(Some dukerface asshole on DA7.com, where I also post, threatened me physically. I'd called him a curmudgeon, a word that wasn't in his 2-year-old vocabulary, but then I admit to egging him on afterwards - always politely, but I shouldn't have done it...even though I was only kidding him in a good-natured way when I called him a curmudgeon...which in fact he was.  In any case, even in that situation the guy wasn't banned, and so far things have been calm for the last couple of months. That to me is *way* out of bounds and he should have been arrested in addition to being banned, but my point is that banning isn't necessary in garden variety situations.)


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## Stephen Rees (May 21, 2005)

*looks up 'curmudgeon' in the dictionary and decides never to play Nick at 'Scrabble'

*sits down to listen to Star Wars 'Revenge of the Sith' soundtrack

*sighs and looks up 'immolation' in the dictionary

*throws out 'Scrabble' board and dictionary and goes back to playing with samples


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 21, 2005)

:lol:


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## rob morsberger (May 21, 2005)

josejherring said:


> It's still a forum where a lot of professionals visit and to muddy my name using his lies is just not okay. So anything that says that I was intentionally trying to deceive anybody is just pure hogwash and I need to know about it.



But Jose, this is exactly what you said about Gary Garritan: intentionally deceiving people etc.

I too would like to know the answer to Nick's questions.

Sincerely,

Rob


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## José Herring (May 21, 2005)

Nick, 

*Let it be known that in no way did I ever use an alias to post my views. * 

That's the "reason" they gave me for the banning.

When they emailed me with this "reason" I thought it was an honest mistake. I then asked to clear it up by posting who they thought was the second account. They said no. Then I said well at least produce what was said so I can track down the guy who said it and clear my name. They said no. So every attempt I made to fix the situation met with resistance from them. That's when I got the idea that it was just an excuse to get rid of me.

Rob,

I accused Gary of intentionally deceiving because I didn't believe that a person who was skilled at recording samples would by accident record an orchestra that was so unprofessionally recorded. I mean do you not hear the constant hiss from the live recording. It's almost louder than the pp brass and string passages. In this day that's ridiculous.

He's the one who posted the demo and then said that it was DPDan that recorded the orchestra. Well, at $5000/hour for recording I doubt that DPDan would have put up that kind of money out of the "appreciation of Gary and his samples".

A better quetion to ask is who paid for the recording and under what circumstance was the recording made? Or, if it was taken from a CD what orchestra and when it was recorded. 

Maybe I could have approached it more diplomatically?

And, I'm glad that no bad things are being said about me.

Jose


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## Stephen Rees (May 21, 2005)

Jose,

I'm sorry you got banned from NS. I haven't posted over there in quite a while myself. I think the last 10 or so times I've thought of posting I've typed it out, read it back, thought 'this is going to serve no good or useful purpose' and simple deleted it all without posting.

Shame really but at the end of the day, the forum owners obviously want to take that forum in a particular direction, and we can either go with it, or move elsewhere.

Actually there aren't many people I can think that make a really positive (by that I mean being constructively critical rather than just saying 'wonderful' to everything) and informed contribution there that aren't here anyway, so at the end of the day your ban doesn't matter that much.

Great to see you here too Bruce. Your posts over at NS have been a real help to me when trying to get to grips with music production. I'm also still chuckling at one of the funniest threads I've read..........

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10268 (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... hp?t=10268)

He he. Still makes me laugh even now. 

All the best,

Stephen


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## Trev Parks (May 21, 2005)

Bruce Richardson said:


> We will forever be "almost there." The most memorable artists are the ones who do something totally unexpected with the tools they hold in their hands at this very moment.



That's a good way of looking at it. The mellotron is hardly at the forefront of sampling these days but it has sure featured in some classics with a ripe personality of its own.

O.T: Frederick, I really like that clock you've got on the bottom left side of the site. I've only just noticed it.


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## His Frogness (May 21, 2005)

Stephen Rees said:


> I think the last 10 or so times I've thought of posting I've typed it out, read it back, thought 'this is going to serve no good or useful purpose' and simple deleted it all without posting.



That's funny. Bruce just said he does the same thing sometimes and I do it all the time. It makes me wonder how many people's opinions actually end up getting posted.


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## rob morsberger (May 21, 2005)

Dear Jose,

Thank you for your reply.

Regarding the mulitiple alias question: although you say the moderators at NS are lying about this, I don't know who to believe (FWIW) and prefer to think that there has been a misunderstanding.

Regarding your statements that Gary Garritan is engaged in deceitful practices, as far as I can see this is based only on your (to me slightly weird) suppositions and assumptions. There is not one shred of fact to back up your assertions. I don't think it's ok to attack anyone's reputation based on this sort of innuendo. Sorry. Apparently no one else in this thread has a problem with that, which to me is disappointing. Jose, if someone made public statements that tarnished your reputation in this gossipy sort of way, I would find that unacceptable too.

I think your outburst on the GPO thread has led to more than one sad outcome. Perhaps there is still a possibility for mending fences.

For the record, I am not one of the Garritan yaysayers. I use and like his harp, own and am somewhat disappointed by GOS, and have no use for GPO.

I wish you well.

Sincerely,

Rob


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## José Herring (May 21, 2005)

I agree with you. I could have been more diplomatic and just inquired as to how the orchestra was recorded.


Jose


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## rob morsberger (May 21, 2005)

Cool!

Thanks.

Hope your music is going well.

Rob


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## fictionmusic (May 21, 2005)

Bruce Richardson said:


> And in reality, that is the very smallest percentage I can imagine of the totality of work to be produced--again, either on artistic or commercial merits.



I think so too. Of the hours of music I produce yearly very little needs to sound like an orchestra. Even the stuff that is supposed to is being judged by people whose ears are somewhat suspect in the first place. From my experience they judge on how well the music works to picture and how much room is being left for dialog and sfx. Whether an instrument is from Donnie, Gary VSL or Gold means little to nothing to them.



lux said:


> Even if directors, manager are into music, most of them couldnt recognize gpo from Vsl pro, I'm still convinced of that, expecially when they evaluate demos.
> Luca



I totally agree. In fact I think even some of the famous musicians and conductors don't have as golden an ear as they would like people to believe. While I am sure they can spot a virtual orchestra from a real one (who better really) I know from first hand experience they can't spot well-done edits nor realize when high-end reverb has been added (subtly mind). I always get a laugh when these "artistically pure" people see the term music editor on the credits. I wonder what they think they do.


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## Hans Adamson (May 21, 2005)

> What difference would it make exactly? Why not dress up bears in tutus and have them dance around? Or teach a poodle to say "mommy."



A Bruce classic.... :lol:


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## Trev Parks (May 22, 2005)

His Frogness said:


> Stephen Rees said:
> 
> 
> > I think the last 10 or so times I've thought of posting I've typed it out, read it back, thought 'this is going to serve no good or useful purpose' and simple deleted it all without posting.
> ...



I usually type it out, read it back, think 'this is going to serve no good or useful purpose' and then post it. Like....well, this


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## Stephen Rees (May 22, 2005)

Trev Parks said:


> His Frogness said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees said:
> ...



He he. Yes but it DID serve a good and useful purpose. It was funny.


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## Marsdy (May 22, 2005)

fictionmusic said:


> Bruce Richardson said:
> 
> 
> > And in reality, that is the very smallest percentage I can imagine of the totality of work to be produced--again, either on artistic or commercial merits.
> ...



I've been surprised just how savvy a lot of people I've worked for are.
They may not know what VSL is but they can certainly tell the difference between what I was doing with libraries 8 years ago and what I'm doing with today's libraries. Their expectations are higher in other words.

I think it's really dangerous to assume directors/producers etc. are a bunch of idiots with suspect hearing! There are some really clever people out there who know what they are doing. They also don't want to hear someone dicking about with a synthesiser in their bedroom. They want to hear "real" instruments because it sounds more expensive.

Obviously not every gig requires orchestral mockups but there are plenty of other genres that require sample mocker uppery. Drums on a rock track, brass section or bass on a funk track, ethnic stuff.....


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## PaulR (May 22, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> I've been surprised just how savvy a lot of people I've worked for are.
> They may not know what VSL is but they can certainly tell the difference between what I was doing with libraries 8 years ago and what I'm doing with today's libraries. Their expectations are higher in other words.
> 
> I think it's really dangerous to assume directors/producers etc. are a bunch of idiots with suspect hearing! There are some really clever people out there who know what they are doing.



I agree with that, but do you not think non musician expectations are higher because the sample technology is better? Or are their expectations higher regarding the actual writing as well as the ongoing sonic improvements? But that's maybe a question for directors who are in the business of oveall improvement in the whole package - we tend to think a little more narrowly, naturally concentrating more on the music front.

Visually and sonically things have definitely improved in a lot of ways over the last 20 years or so - in general, certainly for television, the writing probably has too - not so for feature films though, although the really good scores stick out.

There is also too much emphasis on orchestral working too - I've bought a top of the range sample library and I'm going to use it - type of thing.


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## His Frogness (May 22, 2005)

As an aside, look at Stormdrum. How many composers have used that in films to date? A lot. They did well enough capturing all the large percussion that it makes more sense to use Stormdrum than to fill a hanger with Taikos. There's probably a lot more ways to use the technology as a supplement like that. So in that sense, libraries can stand on their own as a valuable and functional part of big budget music production and it's definitely becoming more and more known. There's good reason for directors and producers to investigate how this technology can improve their sound, even if it's just saving money in one place to spend more somewhere else.


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## José Herring (May 22, 2005)

Yes,

It's been my experience that these producers and directors are a better judge than we are.

We get caught up in the making of the music and the pressure of delivering. They just kick back and criticize. So anything that sounds suspicious to them they call out immediately.

I had one director criticizing the attack on a string patch. He said it sounded a little too fake because all the strings where coming in at the same time! 

So you never know who you're working for. And, everybody becomes a genius when a few million are on the line.

Also, when auditioning composers they have the competition in a stack right next to your CD. So if the other guy has the London Symphony and you have cheapo samples. They know. Trust me. I had a guy criticize me once in a meeting because in one of my orchestra pieces I only had 2 horns. He said that the horns sounded weak. I said yeah, there's only two of them and hollywood usually uses 8 to 12 horns....I didn't get that gig.

So, always strive for the best. And edit your reels to show off :30 to1min of your strongest stuff. You don't want them to hear where you ran out of money and you had to use your korg keyboard because your mega sample set didn't have a pan flute. Trust me. Somebody somewhere will notice and it will be at the worst possible time.

Cheers,

Jose


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## fictionmusic (May 22, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> I've been surprised just how savvy a lot of people I've worked for are.
> They may not know what VSL is but they can certainly tell the difference between what I was doing with libraries 8 years ago and what I'm doing with today's libraries. Their expectations are higher in other words.



Absolutely. They, like most people, can tell this generations new samples (and their quality) apart from old one, especially synth based ones. I never meant they couldn't, what I did mean was that they weren't able to distinguish among the different current libraries. I think it is only people in the field who make that kind of assessment, and, like most things people are heavily into, can easily assume that others are too.



Marsdy said:


> I think it's really dangerous to assume directors/producers etc. are a bunch of idiots with suspect hearing! There are some really clever people out there who know what they are doing. They also don't want to hear someone dicking about with a synthesiser in their bedroom. They want to hear "real" instruments because it sounds more expensive.



Hey, I never said they were idiots. When I said they have suspect hearing, I meant they weren't able to distinguish some of the subtle aspects of music (or even some not so subtle ones). Like I said earlier, in my experience, they are more involved with how music fits to picture. As far as not wanting to hear some kid dicking about in his bedroom, I find that, more and more that is in fact the kind of sound they want to hear. (I take that to mean Acid-based stuff with drum loops and techno bass lines and such.)

I think nowadays real instruments don't sound expensive so much as old-fashioned and Hollywood-ish, both of which are not all that desirable for a lot of directors. I just finished a series that required a James Bond kind of feel with a ton of different ambiences and drum loops playing underneath. Since then I have been asked to do a lot more of that exact kind of thing.
Yes, they do want some of the realistic orchestral sounds, but mostly they want modern techniques, and whether good or bad, that kid in his bedroom dicking about with sounds, is closer to that. No surprise really, tha kind of thing has been happening since I can remember.



Marsdy said:


> Obviously not every gig requires orchestral mockups but there are plenty of other genres that require sample mocker uppery. Drums on a rock track, brass section or bass on a funk track, ethnic stuff.....



Good term that "sample mocker uppery". Yes you're right, there are.

I guess the tone of my earlier post made you think I had no respect for the directors and producers I work for. While it is true I have little tolerance for those who desire to put picture to classical music pieces, and ask for Carmina Burana and Mars sound-alikes, most of the people I have worked for want music to drive their scenes home, and while they often have music in mind (or a kind of music in mind), they usually only really want whatever type of music is used, to work. I have never found them stupid (far from it) and the biggest joy in my professional life is working with their projects and helping them get the impact they were going for.


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## lux (May 22, 2005)

Marsdy said:


> I've been surprised just how savvy a lot of people I've worked for are.
> They may not know what VSL is but they can certainly tell the difference between what I was doing with libraries 8 years ago and what I'm doing with today's libraries. Their expectations are higher in other words.
> 
> I think it's really dangerous to assume directors/producers etc. are a bunch of idiots with suspect hearing! There are some really clever people out there who know what they are doing. They also don't want to hear someone dicking about with a synthesiser in their bedroom. They want to hear "real" instruments because it sounds more expensive.
> ...



Ok, I got to admit that I've really no experience with directors. Thats why I love to talk here with people who had more working experience.

But, somehow, I listen all around what directors and advertisers choose as music. 

In my imagination I dont see them as a bunch of idiots, but somehow I feel they're inclined to choose cliched stuff, bum bum, ethnic voice on synths texture and lot of cliches of that genre.

But, as I said, thats just my imagination, because I got no real experience.

I did mention though, that if no evident artifacts are present, they are not able to recognize, maybe, the difference.

"Dicking around with synths" IS doing evident artifacts 

Luca


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## Marsdy (May 22, 2005)

When I said these director types are not cloth eared idiots I didn't mean to imply they had taste! 

Yep, it's a shame that it's always Orf, Mars or Gladiator but what do you do? Whenever I try something different or experimental it get's thrown back at me :roll:


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## Scott Rogers (May 22, 2005)

..........


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## choc0thrax (May 22, 2005)

Interview with the vampire rules! Just felt like saying...


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## Stephen Rees (May 22, 2005)

Scott Rogers said:


> It's not Conti's fault that a part of "The Right Stuff" sounds nearly like a verbatim lift from Jupiter".



It's not nearly like Jupiter. It IS Jupiter. At least, it is in the version of the film released here in the UK. Also, the rhythm and general feel of part of end title music is the same as used in the first movement of the Tchaikovsky Violin concerto. Wouldn't normally be worth a mention, but it's such a distinctive rhythm that it kind of sticks out as being the same. Having said that, it's a great film, and a great score


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## Brian Ralston (May 22, 2005)

Scott Rogers said:


> But it's mostly the same two or three composers and/or films on every director's mind, whatever the flavors of the day may happen to be, and they want the composer they hire to sound like "that guy...", or like the music from "that film...", or else the current temp track.



I would argue that it is a combination of "flavors of the day" and is also simply money driven. Let me explain. 

Once a movie hits and makes a lot of money...everyone in town wants to try to cash in on the movie that just hit. Everyone wants their "GLADIATOR" or "TITANIC". Producers and directors sometimes feel that the music in a film is a great way to give their movie a "feel" of said "hit." Why?...Because they want their film to be a hit and they often try to ride on the coat tails of what is successful...on what is already proven to make money. 

There is very little risk taken in Hollywood today. There is too much money on the line and people don't want to lose their jobs or tarnish their reputations because their "risky" film did not make a profit. (People's careers can die almost literally overnight in this town.) That is why it is usually the independant film world that has the freedom to make experimental and "risky" films that have never been done before. This includes the use of music. (Notice usually the musical style being copied in studio films is from hugely successful films.) 

Independant films don't have the financial pressure to make a profit & they don't have to live up to the expectations of a big studio. These films usually get made for the "art" of it. Sure the independant filmmakers want their film to be successful and make money...but overall...I don't believe that is the driving force.

Then of course...when an independant film does make it, Hollywood reacts like they are blindsided with its success and scrambles to make a bunch of films just like it before the "newness" wears off and the public's interest in the new style wains. 

It's all about money and Hollywood's desire to make more of it. When in doubt about why a studio film did what it did, think about what would have made the most amount of money and there is your reason. This includes the use of music or musical styles from films with a "proven track record".


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## jc5 (May 22, 2005)

Scott Rogers said:


> There's an old story that floats around, and it's true - some of you have probably already heard it in fact. When one of the nearly final edits for a certain film were being reviewed by a producer, he heard the temp track which was the Adagietto from Mahler's fifth symphony. He loved the piece and asked, "Who wrote that?". The editor answered, "Gustav Mahler". Then, with a straight face and in all sincerity, the producer asked, "Is he available?".



I believe the film in question is Visconti's "Death in Venice" which makes extensive (and, suprisingly, apt) use of the Adagietto (which is in a way rather integral to the Mann's story, but that is another story :wink: ).
In the version I heard the producer said, "Can we sign the guy?", but the exact wording is unimportant.


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