# Orchestral MIDI Library -- Post Your "Phrases" Here!



## Confor_MIDI (Jul 19, 2010)

I am making a compilation of MIDI files due to the lack of MIDI libraries for orchestral scoring.

The reason something like a MIDI package would be so useful to ANY composer is that almost all DAW have a browser. If you have a nice variety of "phrases" in your arsenal, composing becomes a question of arranging and sequencing rather than just programming notes into a computer. It brings out the creative side and gives you time to do the fun stuff... so you aren't frustrating yourself with the notes anymore.

Here is the format I would like to have:

Organized Orchestral MIDI

* Instrumental
o Strings
+ String Ensemble
# Staccato
 * Accompaniment
* Melody 
# Sustenuto
* Accompaniment
o 4/4
+ 1 Bar
+ 2 Bar
+ 3 Bar
+ 4 Bar 
o 3/4
+ 1 Bar
+ 2 Bar
+ 3 Bar
+ 4 Bar 
* Melody
o 4/4
+ 1 Bar
+ 2 Bar
+ 3 Bar
+ 4 Bar 
o 3/4
+ 1 Bar
+ 2 Bar
+ 3 Bar
+ 4 Bar 
o Guitar
+ Electric
# Accompaniment
* 4/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
# Melody
* 4/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
* 3/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
+ Bass
+ Acoustic
# Accompaniment
* 4/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
* 3/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
# Melody
* 4/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
* 3/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
o Woodwinds
o Brass 
* Percussive
o Drum Loops
+ Metal
# 4/4
* 1 Bar
* 2 Bar
* 3 Bar
* 4 Bar 
# 3/4
* 1 Bar
* 2 Bar
* 3 Bar
* 4 Bar 
+ Rock
# 4/4
* 1 Bar
* 2 Bar
* 3 Bar
* 4 Bar 
# 3/4
 * 1 Bar
* 2 Bar
* 3 Bar
* 4 Bar 
+ Trance
# House
* 4/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 
* 3/4
o 1 Bar
o 2 Bar
o 3 Bar
o 4 Bar 

Save me time by including where your MIDI file fits in.

I will be posting updates as the library expands to include more categories. Remember - the idea is to stay as organized as possible while making it as easy as possible for the composer to find what he/she's looking for.

If you want to contribute, make it easy for yourself and download the attached RAR archive and add what you've got to it.

This MIDI library is open to anyone's contributions. Just make sure that the MIDI files aren't copyrighted or anything!


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## chadseiter (Jul 19, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Mon Jul 19 said:


> It brings out the creative side and gives you time to do the fun stuff... so you aren't frustrating yourself with the notes anymore.



Hmm... forgive me, but what is the fun stuff if you're composing without writing the notes?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 19, 2010)

mmm, I think that you forgot to include the rates you are willing to pay for those"MIDI phrases" /\~O


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## Aaron Sapp (Jul 19, 2010)

A tool that allows composers not to compose! Sweeeeeeet!


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## DouglasGibsonComposer (Jul 19, 2010)

When you say "make sure that the MIDI files aren't copyrighted or anything"
I suspect you are referring to plagiarizing well known soundtracks. However every 
midi file would be copyrighted by the author. I think the thing people will be asking you about - and I am too, is why would someone upload their Midi files ? I agree
there is a gap in the market, and not sure why more libraries don't offer more elaborate midi files, but this seems wide open to someone collecting a bunch of stuff and then selling it on for lots of money while not passing on anything to the creator.

You probably need to elaborate on what you are trying to do and when the end user restrictions are.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 19, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> If you have a nice variety of "phrases" in your arsenal, composing becomes a question of arranging and sequencing rather than just programming notes into a computer. It brings out the creative side and gives you time to do the fun stuff... so you aren't frustrating yourself with the notes anymore.



Hmm ... you are studying composition and want to avoid composing by collecting music jigsaw parts? I have a feeling you are actually asking for some help, right? What is it we can do?

Your electric guitars don't play 3/4 BTW.


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## José Herring (Jul 19, 2010)

Buckle down. Work hard. Learn to write music.


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## Narval (Jul 19, 2010)

Aaron Sapp @ Mon Jul 19 said:


> A tool that allows composers not to compose! Sweeeeeeet!


That is its secondary function. Its primary function is the exact opposite: to allow non-composers to compose.


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## synergy543 (Jul 19, 2010)

One McMIDI burger with fries to go. Oh, and can you "Supersize" that please?

Fast food phrases? OK, "have it your way..."

Might fly though....Nobody seems to care much about content anymore. What are Chicken McNugget®'s made of anyways?


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## José Herring (Jul 19, 2010)

"Sir could I please have your order"

Certainly: I'll take a bar of the McWilliams, followed by 2 bars of McGoldsmith. A huge helping of McZimmer and for dessert I'll top it off with just a tiny bit of McElfmen. Oh, and don't forget your complimentary 2 bars of McDebney special--guaranteed to bring in box office gold.


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## stonzthro (Jul 19, 2010)

DP has a feature like this already (or at least it did 10 years ago, before I switched to Logic) where you could save favorite MIDI performances and import them. Useful for percussion and country but that was about it. 

I think of all the elements of what we do, flying in a MIDI file of a melody is about the last thing most of us would ever think about. 

Just my 2 cents...


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## schatzus (Jul 19, 2010)

Seriously?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 19, 2010)

This is beneath a serious response.


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## chadseiter (Jul 19, 2010)

I for one am very excited for when 60% of the melodies on TV shows come from the "Instrumental/Strings/Piano/Melody/Legato (Homophonic)" folder. I wonder who will get the royalties for that.


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## artsoundz (Jul 19, 2010)

call the product "Coffin Nails"


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## chadseiter (Jul 19, 2010)

And maybe we should direct all our clients to 15 year olds with Garage Band now... you know, so they can get used to the industry ahead of time.


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## alphabetgreen (Jul 19, 2010)

Principally, it's a bit like "painting by numbers", and you want our pictures.

However, I don't think it can work. Putting lots of melodies together from eclectic sources. You'd wind up with some really weird counterpoint, because I'm assuming that someone who can't write their own melodies, isn't going to have a clue about harmony.

I might be wrong though. Could be a biggie (as if!!) 8)


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## Confor_MIDI (Jul 20, 2010)

Done bashing me yet?? :cry: 

For all of the negative feedback I'm getting -- let me explain what the purpose of such a library is.


its purpose is not to *allow* non-composers to compose, though this could be one of its applications

its purpose is not to *prevent* composers from composing

It would be a tool to *help* composers.

Let me give an example:

I've got an idea for this part I've written. I want to have the flutes play an ascending octatonic scale in 32nd notes. Someone must have composed that earlier, right?? So I look in the folder, in the place in the Woodwinds folder and look for the key I'm in, drag and drop. Boom. No drawing in piano roll is required. 

The idea dawned on me when using FL Studio. I was constantly taking things I'd done before (loops) and adding them in to new projects.

For those who feel that this is not a very "intelligent" tool, or feel that the ideal composing process does not include revisiting old composed material -- I ask you to be patient as some people work differently when composing. Everyone's work flow is different, and sometimes, all it takes is an old part to get your mind ticking.


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## alphabetgreen (Jul 20, 2010)

It's not a question of 'bashing' you. The idea just sounds ludicrous. For a start, the amount of possible combinations is infinite. The example you're suggesting proves that. I've personally never written an octatonic scale. Out of all the composers who are firstly going to authorise you using their 'phrases', you need to find somebody like Messaien or Stravinsky who composes octatonically. Then you going to have to find a scale that ascends, then orchestrated for flutes, then in the right key (assuming their writing in keys being that they are using octatonic scales). And more to the point, how many possible combinations are there of an octatonic scale? I would guess over a thousand (I'm not exaggerating, think about it).

What's wrong with simply writing in the notes you wish to use? If it's a case of somebody not being able to read or write music, he/she hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of forming a serious piece of music. Again, if one can't write a melody, then take if from me, they won't have a clue about harmony. 

Not only is this invention of yours encouraging laziness of the first order, it seems absolutely cuckoo.


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## Confor_MIDI (Jul 20, 2010)

alphabetgreen @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> It's not a question of 'bashing' you. The idea just sounds ludicrous. For a start, the amount of possible combinations is infinite. The example you're suggesting proves that. I've personally never written an octatonic scale. Out of all the composers who are firstly going to authorise you using their 'phrases', you need to find somebody like Messaien or Stravinsky who composes octatonically. Then you going to have to find a scale that ascends, then orchestrated for flutes, then in the right key (assuming their writing in keys being that they are using octatonic scales). And more to the point, how many possible combinations are there of an octatonic scale? I would guess over a thousand (I'm not exaggerating, think about it).
> 
> What's wrong with simply writing in the notes you wish to use? If it's a case of somebody not being able to read or write music, he/she hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of forming a serious piece of music. Again, if one can't write a melody, then take if from me, they won't have a clue about harmony.
> 
> Not only is this invention of yours encouraging laziness of the first order, it seems absolutely cuckoo.



Alright then. Since you totally aren't bashing me, I guess that means I am officially incapable of composing... because tracks like http://radio3.cbc.ca/play/band/Sean-Goresht/Trailer-Theme-2 (this) come along by using what little knowledge of harmony I apparently have.

I don't mean to brag in any way, but I really do find that having an organized orchestral MIDI library of things you might want to do in a song _is_ ingenious. No, I'll never account for every possibility. But I'll get what I need done.

I think people get way to hesitant to take something someone else has done and put it into their own piece (hence my name Confor_MIDI). 

To answer your second question - yes, it is hard to do part-writing on a sequencing DAW. Take any DAW aside from notation-based ones like Notion, Sebelius, Rosegarden, or Finale. Harmony teaches us to think in notation. Sequencing programs teach us to think in piano rolls. Personally, I just don't think the same way when I'm in front of a sequencing DAW than when I'm in front of a notation program. I would need to have a roman-numeral analysis in front of me so that I can contemplate whether the progression is acceptable and do many other things related to considering the counterpoint! I just can't do the same thing while comparing MIDI items in the Track View.

And even with notation programs, Notion 3 doesn't even have a way of performing a roman-numeral analysis!

So "buckle down and learn to compose" you say. I will -- when a notation-based DAW turns 64-bit and/or is decent enough to do sequencing on or when I read a giant book about it or when I finally take the course on Orchestration offered at my University that's only offered to fourth-year music majors.

The point here: some people, whether starting out composing or not: they just want to have fun and enjoy the activity as something recreational. They want to let their creative mind fly and to enjoy themselves. Think outside the box. Take something someone else has done and manipulate it your own way. Quantize it to a weird rhythm. The possibilities are limitless. THEN you can apply your harmony knowledge to bridge the gap between composing and mindless creativity.[/i]

*On a side-note: Frederick, I'm wondering if this post belongs elsewhere, given the giant debate this has evolved into. Should the post be moved?


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## alphabetgreen (Jul 20, 2010)

What you're saying is that one doesn't need to learn to compose. All they need is a sequencer and they are perfectly able to compose by ear.

I totally agree with that. However, using somebody else's melodic phrases as building bricks isn't the answer.


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## Narval (Jul 20, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> Take something someone else has done and manipulate it your own way.
> ...
> I think people get way to hesitant to take something someone else has done and put it into their own piece (hence my name Confor_MIDI).


Before entering into troubles, you may want to try a different name, like Confor_COPYRIGHT.

Melodic lines are not up for grabs.


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## Confor_MIDI (Jul 20, 2010)

alphabetgreen @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> What you're saying is that one doesn't need to learn to compose. All they need is a sequencer and they are perfectly able to compose by ear.
> 
> I totally agree with that. However, using somebody else's melodic phrases as building bricks isn't the answer.



Whatever you say, bro.

Perhaps this is a separate question that needs to be explored in another thread: the difference between arranginòò   Ýkò   Ýlò   Ýmò   Ýnò   Ýoò   Ýpò   Ýqò   Ýrò   Ýsò   Ýtò   Ýuò   Ývò   Ýwò   Ýxò   Ýyò   Ýzò   Ý{ò   Ý|ò   Ý}ò   Ý~ò   Ýò   Ý€ò   Ýò   Ý‚ò   Ýƒò   Ý„ò   Ý…ò   Ý†ò   Ý‡ò   Ýˆò   Ý‰ò   ÝŠò   Ý‹ò   ÝŒò   Ýò   ÝŽò


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## JMDNYC (Jul 20, 2010)

The insouciance of the thread title cracks me up (and it's not every day I get to use the word insouciance in a sentence).

I agree with all the comments critical of this practice, but I want to point out two things:

If someone really wants to build a cue out of stock phrases there's always stuff like this from Big Fish, "Symphonic Manoeuvres 2"

http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/detail.html?1;16;1:1608:511987;512265::::::A1608;B512265: (http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/detai ... 2265::1586)

There must be some market for it, or for things like Sony's Cinescore software. The people on this forum are clearly not the right market.

Second, Sibelius has a feature called "Ideas" that is supposed to suggest phrases when you're stuck in a composition. Alternatively you can create your own phrases, save them in the "Ideas" library then look them up later when you're stuck, kind of like a notebook. Again, I've never used this feature, as it doesn't seem that practical to me.


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## dannthr (Jul 20, 2010)

You might be better off buying Hollywood Winds from cinesamples--press a button and get your flute run. Of course you'd have to pay for that, which you might not like.

Anyway, building a library such as this would be ridiculous for anyone elses workflow. It would take as much time to reorganize the midi excerpts as it would to simply click your mouse and enter the notes manually.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 20, 2010)

Well, at least I got something out of this thread. I discovered that in OSX, quicklook works for previewing midi files. That's pretty cool.



josejherring @ Mon Jul 19 said:


> "Sir could I please have your order"
> 
> Certainly: I'll take a bar of the McWilliams, followed by 2 bars of McGoldsmith. A huge helping of McZimmer and for dessert I'll top it off with just a tiny bit of McElfmen. Oh, and don't forget your complimentary 2 bars of McDebney special--guaranteed to bring in box office gold.



But how could you leave out...for that BSG sound, some McMcCreary.


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## LFO (Jul 20, 2010)

I think you are confusing looping with composing. They are apples and oranges. An Elfman phrase is not the equivalent of an Acid loop.

I don't think anyone is trying to bash you personally, I think they are just trying to get across the point that the idea, though original, is absurd. You are trying to map something that takes little talent to do, using loops, to years of study, experimentation and practice. It just isn't going to work.

I for one am glad that something like your idea is not practical. Anything that has the potential to turn more music into generic, repetitive goop needs to be shunned.

By the way, I also create electronic music and in that context loops are obviously a great tool. Using that kind of tool in orchestral music is the equivalent of using a screwdriver to make wine.

-Kevin


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## José Herring (Jul 20, 2010)

Let's say that you're a novelist and you came on to a writer's forum and said something similar. Like, "please post your favorite sentences and plot points here and I'll arrange them in a word processor so that you as 'writers' can just arrange the sentences and words any way you like". What you're suggesting would be considered absurd.

At some point you'll just have to consider that you're no longer composing. Legally composer is the guy who comes up with the melodies and the harmonies of a composition. Thus I say if you want to be a composer, buckle down, work hard and learn to compose your own stuff.

Nothing wrong with being an arranger. I use to do it a lot. But the best arrangers are also good composers because in order to even arrange music you need to know a lot about the construction of music.

I'm figuring you're pretty young. Maybe I'm too old school for my own good, but I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if what I was leaning towards was to take credit for 1000 other people's hard work.


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## lee (Jul 20, 2010)

I think the idea of midi loops or phrases is great. BUT. The most creative way would be to save them yourselves and build your own personal library. Seems you´ve already started doing that.

Cool idea!

Not surprised people wont let go of their ideas though. It´s just too much to ask for, since it violates the integrity of the composer and his compositions.

/Johnny


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## tripit (Jul 20, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> I don't mean to brag in any way, but I really do find that having an organized orchestral MIDI library of things you might want to do in a song _is_ ingenious. No, I'll never accouòòE   ÝŠòE   Ý‹òE   ÝŒòE   ÝòE   ÝŽòE   ÝòE   ÝòE   Ý‘òE   Ý’òE   Ý“òE   Ý”òE   Ý•òE   Ý–òE   Ý—òE   Ý˜òE   Ý™òF   ÝšòF   Ý›òF   ÝœòF   ÝòF   ÝžòF   ÝŸòF   Ý òF   Ý¡òF   Ý¢òF   Ý£òF   Ý¤òF   Ý¥òF   Ý¦òF   Ý§òF   Ý¨òF   Ý©òF   ÝªòF   Ý«òG   Ý¬òG   Ý­òG   Ý®òG   Ý¯òG   Ý°òG   Ý±òG   Ý²òG   Ý³òG   Ý´òG   ÝµòG   Ý¶òG   Ý·òG   Ý¸òG   Ý¹òG   ÝºòG   Ý»òG   Ý¼òG   Ý½òG   Ý¾òG   Ý¿òG   ÝÀòG   ÝÁòG   ÝÂòG   ÝÃòG   ÝÄòG   ÝÅòG   ÝÆòG   ÝÇòG   ÝÈòG   ÝÉòG   ÝÊòG   ÝËòG   ÝÌòG   ÝÍòG   ÝÎòG   ÝÏòG   ÝÐòG   ÝÑòG   ÝÒòG   ÝÓòH   ÝÔòH   ÝÕòH   ÝÖòH   Ý×òH   ÝØòH   ÝÙòH   ÝÚòH   ÝÛòH   ÝÜòH   ÝÝòH   ÝÞòH   ÝßòH   ÝàòH   ÝáòH   ÝâòH   ÝãòH   ÝäòH   ÝåòH   ÝæòH   ÝçòH   ÝèòH   ÝéòH   ÝêòH   ÝëòH   ÝìòH   ÝíòH   ÝîòH   ÝïòH   ÝðòH   ÝñòH   ÝòòH   ÝóòH   ÝôòH   ÝõòH   ÝöòH   Ý÷òH   ÝøòH   Ýù              òòH   ÝûòH   ÝüòH   ÝýòH   ÝþòH   ÝÿòH   Ý òH   ÝòH   ÝòH   ÝòH   ÝòH   ÝòH   ÝòH   ÝòH   ÝòH   Ý	òH   Ý
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## Ashermusic (Jul 20, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> Confor_MIDI @ Tue Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Take something someone else has done and manipulate it your own way.
> ...



Narval, while I appreciate your overall sentiment the statement "Inventing melodies is the ONLY creative part of composing music, everything else is just combining already existent stuff" is not only wrong, it is frankly silly. It is possible to create extremely creative music with nothing but non-melodic elements. Some composers, like Ornette Coleman for instance, are so creative that they could break bottles against trash cans and it would come out as interesting music.

You do not help convince this guy that he has come to the wrong place (which he has) by indulging in hyperbole.


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## Narval (Jul 20, 2010)

Ashermusic, while I appreciate your frankness, what you call "wrong" and "silly" depends entirely on your understanding of "creative." To me, if inventing is creative, then inventing melodies is creative. Not too sure about breaking bottles against trash cans. :wink:


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## artsoundz (Jul 20, 2010)

Narval-Writing a piece for a percussion ensemble is pure creative music. Take out the mallets even ,and it's composing music.No real melody there but it's still every bit creative and pure music. Also, arranging requires a thorough understanding of melody and the most successfull arrangements, to me, have very strong inner melodies supporting the main melody or theme. 

Ornette Coleman is extremely melodic. Harmolodic,bactually. Perhaps not traditionally but the word "melody" really doesnt have a specific translation anymore.or maybe it's better to say,as time marches on, we have learned that there is much more to the defintion of melody than the traditional approach. It's pretty fluid and open to interpretation.

but back to the subject of this thread-it's fair to build a library of strings runs, woodwind runs and Drum loops but,Sean, you're list suggests much more than that and may be interesting at best but I just can't imagine it being satisfying to anyone other than an inexperienced garage band composer or a music producer unwilling to spring for a pro composer. It really is unappealing. to say the least. 

Bck to the drawing board. BTW- the music example you linked to -I assume as a way to establish you know whats what- is ok. It's not bad but it is very typical and doesnt really show us much if you are trying to gain cred as a composer. Again, it's not a bad start but a start nonetheless. Your words subsequent to that link simply makes me ask the question-what are you thinking/hearing? Can you give an example of your pre programmed "collage" music? Be forewarned, as you can already tell-we all pretty much know what slice and dice music sounds like and ,again, beyond drum stuff and orchestral flourishes (individual instrument runs)-not interesting and wholly unsatisfying. In addition asking US for preporgrammed melodic idea-woah.

Thats my quota of electrons and photons for this month.


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## Confor_MIDI (Jul 20, 2010)

tripit @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> Confor_MIDI @ Tue Jul 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mean to brag in any way, but I really do find that having an organized orchestral MIDI library of things you might want to do in a song _is_ ingenious. No, I'll never account for every possibility. But I'll get what I need done.
> ...



Perhaps you're right, and I do agree that your point has some merit; *however* I think that originality does not consist of starting new, starting from a blank page. You all made some good points, and I especially liked the analogy on writing a novel.

What we all have to remember is that the MIDI library would contain the smallest increments of others' scores. It's not like you'd be giving away your whole score! No -- it's small things, for example, a Eb Major chord lasting two measures and designed for the Hollywood Winds library. 

So let's compare the two methods side-by-side: 1) I draw out an Eb chord in my notation software (Notion 3). Ten seconds and I'm done. *VS* I drag and drop the pre-built Eb chord that I had before in another song. It takes me 1 second. 2) I map the velocities on the notation software. I want the lower notes to be little louder, as usual. This takes about 2 minutes. *VS* I'm done, and I have what I want. This takes 0 seconds.

You judge which is the better method. 

Am I composing? Sure, I am. Musically and scientifically speaking (and according to science journalist and writer Daniel Levitin) I am creating music as I am using those parts of the brain responsible for "prediction, foresight, anticipation" located in the prefrontal cortex.

Music is a result of a standardized method of communication we all know as language. Language resulted in music. Both language and music are systematized and based off of building blocks. A writer uses a dictionary of available words to be creative with phrases and sentences. The reason classical music is classical music and the reason film music _is_ film music is that we find similar elements or building blocks in all music that we find to be that way.

Sometimes there is a word in a book that has never been seen in the dictionary. It's not a real word. So once it's used enough, it's added to the dictionary. Sound familiar?

There are rules in music. Music is systematized. Being creative involves bending these rules, adding your own unique phrases to compliment those that you or others have written before.[/b]


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## synergy543 (Jul 20, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> I think that originality does not consist of starting new, starting from a blank page.


Historically yes. However we live in interesting times. 

Did you know that the group "Men Down Under" got sued to the tune of probably several millions of dollars for just a few "questionable" note snippets from a children's song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCyB2l5wqLE

Might want to avoid that phrase at least. :roll:


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 20, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> So let's compare the two methods side-by-side: 1) I draw out an Eb chord in my notation software (Notion 3). Ten seconds and I'm done. *VS* I drag and drop the pre-built Eb chord that I had before in another song. It takes me 1 second. 2) I map the velocities on the notation software. I want the lower notes to be little louder, as usual. This takes about 2 minutes. *VS* I'm done, and I have what I want. This takes 0 seconds.
> 
> You judge which is the better method.



For me at least, I'd strongly disagree about which method is faster (and I'd really dispute being able to find the midi chunk you want, drag it in, and do whatever tweaking is needed in one second).

Maybe the issue for you is that you are working in notation software, and it is putting a limit on how fast you can work? Seems like the solution isn't to have a giant library to copy/paste, but to simply find a better app for creating your music, or find ways to make your current app work faster. If entering one chord is slower than searching for one, then something is wrong.

To go back to the analogy of writing a novel, to me it sounds like needing to type the word "pterodactyl" so you go and find the word in a list and then copy paste it - that's never going to be faster than just typing it in. Or at least if it is faster, the problem is that typing is too slow and the solution is improve typing speed.


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## artsoundz (Jul 20, 2010)

I think you need to post a musical example. So far, I think you are just guessing this might work.

I'm curious. have you found any contributors? any interest outside this forum? Also, midi info isnt going to work very well generically. There are so many different libraries that while one midi sequence may translate well in one library, it will sound badly in another-possibly requiring a lot of work to schmooze into something passable and pro sounding.

BTW_ the more rules used in music the less interesting it is for me. Yes, rules can/should be bent but maybe you dont realize that they are meant to be broken as well. Thats a fundamental tenant in Jazz.

In your scenario-by the time you've broken the rules with your tools it just seems you've spent more energy than if you composed music based on notes, harmonic knowledge(personal or academic) and experience. After many years of good ole hard work, I think you'd be much happier. BTW_I think there is a case for most actually play in an Eb chord rather than input with a notation program or step editing. Playing V.I's on a keyboard ,generally, and using your ears is by far the fastest IMO.

Please just post an example of what your experience has shown you to be true.


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## marce (Jul 20, 2010)

I agree about compose by your own, and i dont feel a music as mine if i dont have played it on my keyboard. 
BUT, being amateur in the composition game, i really like LOOPS and pre-made midi phrazes as an Educational resource. It gives you the chance to isolate things and hear them over and over. I will not use them as Loops or midi phrazes, but i know that my brain will in some music context.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 20, 2010)

I generally agree that this idea really isn't a good one for all the reasons listed. That said, a far, far more limited concept of an ornaments library might be useful - string runs etc. Maybe extending as far as a bit like the stuff in LASS' ART script, but midi only.


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## Confor_MIDI (Jul 20, 2010)

artsoundz @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> I think you need to post a musical example. So far, I think you are just guessing this might work.
> 
> I'm curious. have you found any contributors? any interest outside this forum? Also, midi info isnt going to work very well generically. There are so many different libraries that while one midi sequence may translate well in one library, it will sound badly in another-possibly requiring a lot of work to schmooze into something passable and pro sounding.
> 
> ...



No. Of course no one has shown any interest. Quite frankly, it seems that this forum is not the place to ask. I would term the reaction on these forums "conservative" at best.

A question for you all: DJs, people who do remixes - are they musicians? Do they also engage in the act we call "composing"?

Artsoundz, the whole point of using MIDI files is that it's tempo-synced. So how could it not fit well in a project? It's tempo-synced. Maybe what you mean is that the theme may not be the same... in which case it would be up to you to decide what to do next. Since this is arranging, I will ask you - what would you do if something the composer put in didn't work in Cue E?

Actually, it's quite remarkable, given all the negative feedback I've gotten back. I'm curious to know, then: how is it that real composers compose? Do they write it down on that old invention called "staff paper"? Has much changed since the 20th century? Maybe you're all right, that that's what real composing consists of. That way I can do a real roman numeral analysis like I did all throughout theory class...

Artsoundz, I think what you mean by "bent" here *is* broken. If the fundamental rules of music were broken, then what you'd hear would be plain cacophony. Jazz also has a fundamental set of rules. Why do you think we call it jazz? Perhaps what you mean is that *relative* to other genres, it bends the rules more? At any rate, this is probably an argument I'll be more qualified to make once I do the next few music history classes...

My experience is that using these kinds of MIDI phrases really makes it easier to "compose" (because I can't be too sure that I am composing anymore) and more enjoyable. I would otherwise have to stare at a large, empty screen for a good portion of time before I began composing. I'm sure the "clean-start" method works for many of you, but to be honest, the way I work now (and perhaps for the worst) I don't really think that I've done things the real way (ever) with a pen and paper as I'm sure you'll propose. Music has always been a hobby for me, something that I enjoy every day and that I can go to at the end of work to relax a little. My own invention of taking the large collection of drum loops I have and using them in my own projects as percussion lines really seems to help me get going and "composing". So, Artsoundz: to answer your question - playing a chord on a MIDI controller may indeed be faster at times. I use it all the time in my projects... but when the time calls for it. But what happens when you are on the go on your laptop and don't have a keyboard?


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## EwigWanderer (Jul 20, 2010)

There are ready-made midi files in addictive drums and also in real guitar. for drums it seems to be ok to have them..for deadlines they are timesaver. 
I would like the idea for studying music for example "download a score and midifile for it" -concept. or tutor midifiles for how to do different things with strings or winds etc...to get that sound. But thats my opinion...I'm very lazy on reading books. And there are no books in finnish for example about mociescoring or orchestration.


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## Confor_MIDI (Jul 20, 2010)

EwigWanderer @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> There are ready-made midi files in addictive drums and also in real guitar. for drums it seems to be ok to have them..for deadlines they are timesaver.
> I would like the idea for studying music for example "download a score and midifile for it" -concept. or tutor midifiles for how to do different things with strings or winds etc...to get that sound. But thats my opinion...I'm very lazy on reading books. And there are no books in finnish for example about mociescoring or orchestration.



There are plenty of MIDI orchestrations free and available for download (and great for study, as you mentioned). 

Just Google it. You'll find a whole ton of them.


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## MikeH (Jul 21, 2010)

Okay, I’m going to enter this and give you my honest two cents. 

I admire your passion but in all honesty you’re trying to find shortcuts where there are no shortcuts. Writing music is writing music. Believe me, I tried a lot when I was younger (not that long ago) to make my composition process go faster. I wanted it now now now! You know what I learned? There are no shortcuts. Part of writing music is the toiling and blood, sweat, and tears. Yes, I’ve found more convenient ways of getting my ideas down as the years go by and I’ve grown wiser, but at the end of the day it’s not drag and drop...it’s work. 

While I’ve always been able to write music ‘by ear’, I initially learned with notation. You’re right, for some people it is easier to write in notation than in a piano roll. But you’re just starting out and you’re jumping to conclusions and not giving yourself time to grow and learn and adapt. Don’t be in such a hurry to get things done fast fast fast! I assume you’re in the early to mid stages of studying composition at University? Don’t jump to conclusions so fast-- right NOW you are correct in saying that harmony teaches you to think in notation because that is your experience... but after years of composing and listening and digesting music you might be telling a different story. It is very possible that in a few years you won’t even need to ‘think‘ about notation...you’ll just be able to record what you hear in your head. I think right now you’re still attached to the ‘rules’ of writing music-- did you say you have to see a roman numeral analysis to tell whether or not a chord progression is acceptable? Acceptable to whom? What about your ears? Nobody who is a serious musician is going to limit themselves by composing only by roman numeral analysis.

You don’t need a 64bit DAW to compose music. You don’t need to wait to take a class on orchestration in order to start studying NOW. It IS about getting a big ‘ol book and reading it and then re-reading it. It IS about getting study scores and studying them. It IS about listening to any and all types of music and listening to how they’re constructed. There is no excuse. Believe me, I tried them all. There is nothing holding you back from creating music. And then if you want to write a 32nd note string run it’s about writing it down....whether by playing it or by notating it or by recording it in step-time. I have been exactly where you are...looking for ways to escape to inescapable.

You want to take something someone else has done (legally) and put your own (legal) creative spin on it? Then do it! You don’t need pre-arranged midi files of phrases. Listen to the original recording. Change notes around. Re-orchestrate it. Composing is not about drag and drop. 

Trust me, when I was younger I wanted to know the fastest way....I was so bloody impatient. With time and age I learned that the fastest way is to just buckle down and do it instead of constantly looking for a faster way. You’re at the age when you can AFFORD to go slow. You’re not working professionally and you really shouldn’t be working professionally at this point in time.. Now is the time to learn the craft and hone your skills. Make mistakes. Going through and writing in all the 32nd notes of a flute run can teach you a lot about composition. John Williams and Bernard Herrmann and countless other pencil to paper composers had to write in all those quick string and woodwind figures that go by in a split second. It’s true that today with computers we can go a bit faster, but composing music is still composing music. Once you start writing more and more you WILL get faster as you get more experienced with DAW’s and notation and music writing in general. But working in a DAW is STILL work! It makes some things easier but the process of composing is still the process of composing.

Take it from me...now, when your in school, is not the time to be arguing and trying to take a stance on something that you’re in the middle of learning. Just sit back, absorb, learn, practice, make mistakes, keep at it, and just try to do good work. If you're just looking for an easy and fun way to relax, perhaps writing music is not the right thing for that... 


I know that you might have been taken aback by the responses here because you shook this particular hornet’s nest on the forum, but trust me in a few years when you’ve studied and studied and if you start working professionally and get some life experience in music you’ll realize where we’re coming from. There’s no such thing as a fast-forward button on this journey, and why would you want one anyway?


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## Dan Mott (Jul 21, 2010)

Harmony over Melody any day! Music has rules, but it sounds better when they're broken.  "Inventing melodies is the only creative part of his/her compositions" = Completely and utterly WRONG!!


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## Confor_MIDI (Jul 21, 2010)

MikeH @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> Okay, I’m going to enter this and give you my honest two cents.
> 
> I admire your passion but in all honesty you’re trying to find shortcuts where there are no shortcuts. Writing music is writing music. Believe me, I tried a lot when I was younger (not that long ago) to make my composition process go faster. I wanted it now now now! You know what I learned? There are no shortcuts. Part of writing music is the toiling and blood, sweat, and tears. Yes, I’ve found more convenient ways of getting my ideas down as the years go by and I’ve grown wiser, but at the end of the day it’s not drag and drop...it’s work.
> 
> ...



Indeed, I've got some bad habbits to change then...

Since this post has taken a personal undertone, I will hesitate to mention that I have been using DAW for quite a few years (casually and as a hobby). I've been studying music (seriously) for quite a few years. 

I fear that the minute I stop enjoying it, the end result will not be enjoyable.

But you say it is. That all the blood, sweat, and tears is rewarding.

I trust you.

PS: Mod, can you please move this thread to the appropriate place?


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## Narval (Jul 21, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> I've got some bad habbits to change then...


Only your attitude towards music.


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## ChrisAxia (Jul 22, 2010)

Very nicely said, MikeH. 

~Chris


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> A question for you all: DJs, people who do remixes - are they musicians? Do they also engage in the act we call "composing"?


No, they are not composing. They are rearranging and mixing, hence the title re-MIX. Are they musicians? Only if they play it in. If they mouse it, then no.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2010)

bryla @ Tue Jul 27 said:


> Confor_MIDI @ Wed Jul 21 said:
> 
> 
> > A question for you all: DJs, people who do remixes - are they musicians? Do they also engage in the act we call "composing"?
> ...



While I agree that they are not composing, the dictionary defines a musician one way as "a person who is talented or skilled in music" and by that definition, some DJs and re-mixers would indeed qualify as musicians.


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## Narval (Jul 27, 2010)

In their attempt to be "accurate," dictionaries often come up with funny definitions, especially when it comes to music. In dictionaries, a musician "is" whatever they say there. But in real life, a musician is a person who plays a musical instrument.

Djs are neither composers nor musicians. They are disk jockeys.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Jul 27 said:


> But in real life, a musician is a person who plays a musical instrument.
> 
> Djs are neither composers nor musicians. They are disk jockeys.



If you say so 

There are traditional DJs who just play songs and then there are a new breed that is stretching the job description. While it may not be a great musical achievement depending on the views of the listener (and frankly I have no interest in it at all) nonetheless Dj's who create music on the fly by re-arranging and mixing existing clips ARE creating something musical that is new and someone who creates something musical is by any logical modern definition a musician.

Nows whether they are GOOD musicians is another discussion. I have often quoted my composition teacher, the late Avram David, in saying that Ornette Coleman is so creative could break bottles on trash cans in an alley and it would come out as good music.


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## Narval (Jul 27, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jul 27 said:


> by any logical modern definition


And, according to a _logical modern definition,_ what is a "logical modern definition?'  

<sighs> semantics...


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Jul 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> > by any logical modern definition
> ...



One that recognizes that the definition of music and musician has changed over the years. One that understands that non-tonal, aleatoric, etc. have expanded the definition of music beyond what Haydn would have called it.

There are "musicians" I went to school with (and perhaps here) who would listen to Stockhausen and Boulez and say "that is not music." 

What they really meant is that it was not anything they could ACCEPT as music. Which is fine. In the 60's my dad, who was a fine drummer, used to watch the Rolling Stones with me and say "that is not music" it's just 3 chords and a beat.

Once again, I am no fan of this particular brand of "music" but denying that it is musical creation and therefore the creator is a musician is just not logical IMHO.

And now, Narval, since I know that you are compelled to do so, feel free to make another snide comment and have the last word.


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## bryla (Jul 27, 2010)

I get your point Jay, and remixers are not per definition instrumentalists, but of course musicians


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 27, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Jul 27 said:


> a musician is a person who plays a musical instrument



By that definition, someone who just composes wouldn't be a musician. Unlikely you'd ever find that, but that definition seems way too limited.

I'd say if someone remixing is doing a new arrangement, I'd consider them a musician. To what degree any given person is a musician is a different matter.


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## Narval (Jul 27, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jul 27 said:


> Narval @ Tue Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Tue Jul 27 said:
> ...


A careful read will reveal that I wasn't asking what music is, but what "a logical modern definition" is, according to a logical modern definition. No snide comment, just pointing out that your definitions are self-fulfilling prophecies.

Btw, have you ever wondered what "is" is? Or maybe you have a logical modern definition for that too? Are you a Certified Trainer in Logic and Semantics? What level? :mrgreen:


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## Stevie (Jul 28, 2010)

The idea of making such a library is actually not bad at all. I see the main advantage for 
this library in runs and other common devices, that are not copyrighted. 
But I agree that every composer should do this on his own, to retain a certain uniqueness of his musical preferences.


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## bryla (Jul 28, 2010)

uhhh..... funny thread actually in the light of people buying and praising HollyWoodWinds.... :D


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 28, 2010)

I guess having canned midi for runs might be slightly useful, but it still seems like playing them in wouldn't take much longer than finding the midi file and tweaking it to make it work.

Having prerecorded runs is going to give you an improvement in sound quality, it's definitely something that individual samples don't do as well as live players, at least not yet. Same with things like trills, tremolos, drum rolls etc. This thread did make me think of HWW but they are completely different animals. I guess the "textures" part of HWW has the potential to be similar to this, but for me the big appeal of HWW is the runs and stacked WW patches, if it shipped without the canned background parts I wouldn't really miss them.


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## Narval (Aug 2, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> Narval @ 20/7/2010 said:
> 
> 
> > (c) The ONLY reason someone deserves to be called a composer is his capacity to invent melodies.
> ...


I didn't say that organized sound that lacks melody is unmusical. I only said that I wouldn't call someone incapable of inventing melodies: a composer. I would call him: a sound designer, arranger, orchestrator, scorer, DJ, music editor, etc.

Combining sounds to achieve effects, that's admirable. But combining simple notes so that they form new melodies, that is special. 

Music is not limited to melody of course. But Melody is the Queen of Music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRXj31fXC2M


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## Ashermusic (Aug 2, 2010)

Narval @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Narval @ 20/7/2010 said:
> ...



Melody may be the Queen of Pop Music but in other genres it is only 1 of 3 EQUALLY important elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm.

And any 5 year old kid can invent a melody. That does not make him/her a composer or necessarily "creative" on any heightened level.

There are great composers who write memorable melodies and there are great composers who do not.

I started as a songwriter and had a lot of songs recorded, collaborated with 2 Academy Award winners, have a platinum album on my wall, etc. but going to Boston Conservatory of Music broadened my horizons and I learned not to narrow my definitions of terms like music, composer, and creativity.

Respectfully, I think that you need to re-think this.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 2, 2010)

Narval, a few incredible composers not known for their melodic skills:

John Cage, Pierre Schaeffer, Steve Reich, Pierre Boulez, Luciano Berio, Scelsi, Ligeti, Xenakis, etc, etc.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 2, 2010)

Jay, 2 more: Space and Texture (orchestration/arrangement/granular synthesis,etc).


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 2, 2010)

The latest Zimmer is much more about exploring harmony, rhythm and space/texture than it is about melody. Great composer.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 2, 2010)

You don't need a database of melodies, as you already have one: your memory. You've heard most of the interesting melodies in one form or another many times in your life, and maybe in one given year. Just keep listening to music all the time, and melodies will come to you easily. You can stay in 'the groove' by writing at least a little regularly/daily. I find that if I can't sing the melody I'm trying to write, it needs to be re-worked, or I'll try something else.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 2, 2010)

I don't really see the point of discussing a hypothetical composer who "can't" write melodies at all - there isn't really such a person, is there?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 2, 2010)

We're leaving out all the composers who use electroacoustic/computer music techniques instead of traditional melody/harmony/rhythm, right?


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## Narval (Aug 2, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> I don't really see the point of discussing a hypothetical composer who "can't" write melodies at all - there isn't really such a person, is there?


Ned has just answered that.

However, the discussion here is not about whether or not a composer can or can't write melodies. The discussion is about whether or not the capacity to invent new melodies (and I mean likable, memorable melodies) lies at the core of composing music. Some say it does, some say it doesn't. Some even say the "traditional elements" are nonessential for making music. Some say music is a democracy of equally important elements. Some say Music is an Aristocracy ruled by a Monarch. I'm a monarchist. Melody is my Sovereign. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4nsifplvpk


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## Ashermusic (Aug 2, 2010)

Narval @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4nsifplvpk



Which has absolutely nothing to do with film scoring.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 2, 2010)

Narval @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> (and I mean likable, memorable melodies)



As the discussion goes on you keep moving the goalposts. Now if someone writes an orchestral piece with melodies you don't find likeable or memorable, he's not a composer?


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## Stevie (Aug 2, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 2nd August 2010 said:


> The latest Zimmer is much more about exploring harmony, rhythm and space/texture than it is about melody. Great composer.



I so agree Ned.


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## Narval (Aug 2, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> Narval @ Mon Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > (and I mean likable, memorable melodies)
> ...


You bet he is! Anyone capable to fart is a composer. Composing is the Art to Fart. Isn't it? Can't see why it is not.

Anyways, I mean no harm and no insult to anyone who is combining sounds, whatever those sounds might sound like. It's just that I'm probably too selective with whom I call a composer. Of course everyone is free to call whomever they like whatever they like. John Cage is a composer and I'm an astronaut - I'm traveling through space with this spaceship they call earth.
~o)


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## Confor_MIDI (Aug 8, 2010)

http://www.prosonic-studios.com/Midi-Progressions-Details.aspx?lngCollectionID=76

Guess the idea wasn't so original after all... it still might be nice if you don't have access to a keyboard.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 13, 2010)

Confor_MIDI @ Sun Aug 08 said:


> http://www.prosonic-studios.com/Midi-Progressions-Details.aspx?lngCollectionID=76
> 
> Guess the idea wasn't so original after all... it still might be nice if you don't have access to a keyboard.



The alarm bells definitely go off when a product is $259.99...but $34.95 for the download version.


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## SergeD (Aug 15, 2010)

Many thanks for that link Confor_MIDI,

I just downloaded some midi demo files and already found inspiring paths to start from. What I like to do is looping a midi file while switching to differents instruments and explore colors.

SergeD


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