# Dollar Inflation,currency drop.



## Audun Jemtland (May 8, 2011)

(old topic, 2 years)
Hi all.

I was wondering if you americans are aware of the american economy?
That there will most likely come a hyper-inflation of the dollar.

I'm not american,but is this the talk in america? Are people even aware?

It's smart to change your dollar currency into something else,Canadian will also work.


There is so much going on behind your(our) backs that we don't know about. (lies are told daily)


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## Mick Emery (May 8, 2011)

The Federal Reserve, which most Americans and even some congressmen don't realize is not a government agency, manipulates "dollars" to control the economy. They are a privately owned bank that basically owns the U.S. All that they do is in their own best interest, not the country's. They are now trying to get into your countries too. (remember the bailouts of European banks?) We are powerless, as citizens, until we can get politicians to tell the truth or elect those that will. Ron Paul is one of the few that understands & talks about it, but the media has sold people that he is a nut. They serve the purposes of the "Fed". Some of us know how serious this is, but we're in the minority.

Mick


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## Audun Jemtland (May 8, 2011)

Mick Emery @ Sun May 08 said:


> The Federal Reserve, which most Americans and even some congressmen don't realize is not a government agency, manipulates "dollars" to control the economy. They are a privately owned bank that basically owns the U.S. All that they do is in their own best interest, not the country's. They are now trying to get into your countries too. (remember the bailouts of European banks?) We are powerless, as citizens, until we can get politicians to tell the truth or elect those that will. Ron Paul is one of the few that understands & talks about it, but the media has sold people that he is a nut. They serve the purposes of the "Fed". Some of us know how serious this is, but we're in the minority.
> 
> Mick


Yes it affects the whole world really,we're all neighboors.
But what does it take for people to be conscious about the fact that we have no control or influence? How long are we gonna keep this pyramide game up?

And now this nonsense about osama,which they'll use to keep the troops in the middle east even further. And say that there's some kind of reason attachted to osama that will keep them there.


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## RiffWraith (May 8, 2011)

audun jemtland @ Sun May 08 said:


> I was wondering if you americans are aware of the american economy?



Yes, I am sure almost all of us are VERY aware.



audun jemtland @ Sun May 08 said:


> It's smart to change your dollar currency into something else....



HUH?!?!?!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2011)

audun - aside from the fact that everything you're saying is both unsubstantiated and false, you're right to be concerned.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2011)

And MIck, Ron Paul says a few things I can agree with, but that particular rant about the Fed is insane.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/weeki ... =cse&scp=8


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## chimuelo (May 8, 2011)

Seems like others here have the same issues I do with the Fed.
The sad truth is that they need to continue printing money to make up for the lack of consumer spending, which as we all know is based on the Middle Class, not the rich or the poor.
The Chinese struck a deal with our leaders that they would get manufacturing, and distribution via Long Beach and for 300 Billion a year they are oblidged to loan us as much money as we need. But if the Middle Class quits spending, China suffers, their hedge bet is our debt to them.

The Federal Reserve is the new IMF, the new World Bank, and if anyone here thinks it's a conspiracy, you're too busy reading headlines and not researching.
The Federal Reserve has control over several lobbying firms which they use as a nameless way to get legislature. Who do you think could possibly ram a bill through for nameless contributions from foreign countries, etc. during a supposed " liberal " super majority.........??

If anyone wants to see the Federal Reserves global grip on the world economy, just keep track of the lawsuit that the Federal Government has against Deutsch Bank.
It wont make the news, since that's corporate controlled, but this is a show since around 5 trillion dollars of wealth and equity were lost ( transfferred ). The 1 billion is a sacrifice as the public only now is starting to hear about foriegn banks running scams on American soil. Polls probably suggested that AG Holder was despised by most Americans for being a puto and a lackey. Since the news about Deutsch Bank has been silenced by gag ordered lawsuits which are starting to expire, they want to try and get ahead of this one and blame it on Bush. Afterall, it was Bush who sent Ameriquests " bancrupted " owner to the Netherlands to be an Ambassador. 
Perfect left /right finger pointing that maintains the status quo. 
A play that my son was in for school has better actors than these scritped elites.


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## Mick Emery (May 8, 2011)

> But what does it take for people to be conscious about the fact that we have no control or influence? How long are we gonna keep this pyramide game up?


The gov't likes the Fed because they can spend like drunken sailors & the Fed just prints the money for them to do so. The American taxpayer eventually pays the bill but ALSO the interest charged by the Fed. Interest on money that was created out of thin air! The gov't takes care of the media so they won't report. The people remain ignorant & when someone tries to tell them...they are called crazy. I & my family are almost to the point of leaving the U.S. I love America, but I absolutely hate the federal government. As long as they have bigger guns...we're screwed!!!


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## Ed (May 8, 2011)

Mick Emery @ Sun May 08 said:


> * Interest on money that was created out of thin air! *



I tired of reading these conspiracy myths. Its becoming way more annoying than I used to find when reading religious rubbish or Creationism. I once believed this "out of thin air" without question too, when watching deliberatly deceptive online videos like "Money As Debt" whcih I even posted here once, or even worse Zeitgeist film. 

Anyone that complains to you that "money is debt" and is "created out thin air" you can guarantee doesn't know what they're talking about and has got their knowledge of economics from conspiracy theorists thet are either lying to them or they are simply repeating the same ignorant nonsence they heard from others.

To learn about how money and banking really works I reccomend some of these videos from the Khan Acadamy. 

http://www.khanacademy.org/v/banking-1? ... nd%20Money

Here is the video on fractional reserve banking, in later videos he gets more complex. 

http://www.khanacademy.org/v/banking-3- ... nd%20Money

Once someone has watched them all there will be no way they can go back and watch videos like Money As Debt and not realise they are being lied to so long as they are being honest with themselves.

Hey, did you know the US Income Tax isn't legal and there is no law requiring you to pay? No, not really... but that is in the same vicinity of stupid as this.


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## Ed (May 8, 2011)

Sorry Jose, but you must have learnt about the Federal Reserve and fractional reserve banking from conspiracy theorists. It simply does not work the way you think it does.





josejherring @ Sun May 08 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Sun May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > And MIck, Ron Paul says a few things I can agree with, but that particular rant about the Fed is insane.
> ...


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## José Herring (May 8, 2011)

Ed @ Sun May 08 said:


> Sorry Jose, but you must have learnt about the Federal Reserve and fractional reserve banking from conspiracy theorists. It simply does not work the way you think it does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I haven't. I learned it just from studying banking.  

I'll watch you videos though. I'm always open to learning more.


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## Ed (May 8, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun May 08 said:


> No I haven't. I learned it just from studying banking.



The question is, from whom did you study banking from. I didn't realise Money As Debt, for example, was promoting conspiracy theorist myths. 



> I'll watch you videos though. I'm always open to learning more.



ok good theres a whole series of them. 

Scroll down to Section 4 called "Banking and Money" to see the list:

http://www.khanacademy.org/#browse

It starts off very simply, but you may need that to understand the basics of what he is talking about. This is really this guys field, so unlike his videos on biology he is more than qualified to talk about this.


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## José Herring (May 8, 2011)

I watched most of the videos Ed. that's pretty basic stuff. Money as a representation of production and exchange.

what it doesn't explain is how the government suddenly puts 1.5 trillion dollars of money that didn't previously exist as "bailout" funds. That's where you realize that money can be printed out of "thin air".

But, those are good videos to realize how money is suppose to work and how it really does work for the rest of us.

edit: Just noticed you posted another video. Keep 'em coming. The videos really do represent how the normal people make money. I just wish that everybody thought that way. We'd have a real productive stable economy if we could return to the basics of money and banking.


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## Audun Jemtland (May 8, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun May 08 said:


> audun - aside from the fact that everything you're saying is both unsubstantiated and false, you're right to be concerned.



True,but I don't need to lay down any context to support my concerns.What happens happens. Regadless of our knowledge to it or not.There are stuff happening behind our backs that noone knows. I'm just sayin,if they try more monkeybusiness related to middle east I'll be very sceptical to it's truth



audun jemtland @ Sun May 08 said:


> It's smart to change your dollar currency into something else....



HUH?!?!?![/quote]
IF america goes through a hyper inflation,that means the dollar is worth nada...it cannot be saved. So more and more people change their currency to something else. I know of one stock broker that changed to british pound.



Mick Emery @ Sun May 08 said:


> > But what does it take for people to be conscious about the fact that we have no control or influence? How long are we gonna keep this pyramide game up?
> 
> 
> The gov't likes the Fed because they can spend like drunken sailors & the Fed just prints the money for them to do so. The American taxpayer eventually pays the bill but ALSO the interest charged by the Fed. Interest
> ...


Well put. But they've fed the people with a couple of noticable "mistakes" so when more and more people catch up on that, people start talking.


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## Ed (May 8, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun May 08 said:


> I watched most of the videos Ed. that's pretty basic stuff. Money as a representation of production and exchange.



Its been about half an hour since I remember posting about this and now you said you watched "most" of them already? You could have hardly watched 2 let alone most of them.

Scroll down to "Banking and Money", as I said. There's several there. 

http://www.khanacademy.org/#browse

I said it starts out basic but gets progressivley more complicated, thats the best way to learn which is why learning mathematics on Khan starts with basic addition before getting to advanced calculus all the way up the chain. 



> what it doesn't explain is how the government suddenly puts 1.5 trillion dollars of money that didn't previously exist as "bailout" funds. That's where you realize that money can be printed out of "thin air".



Again you could not have watched the videos properly. There are videos on the bailouts and a whole section on the "credit crisis" and "finance" specifically as well if you search for them, like this one for example:
http://www.khanacademy.org/v/bailout-13 ... t%20Crisis


But even just looking at some of the basic banking ones you can see how faulty this idea is. 

The bailouts are not based on nothing, they are based on something real. If loans are not based on something real we would get hyper inflation which is exactly why you cannot just print as much money as you want to. If you look at the frational reserve banking videos you can start to understand where conspiracy theorists get this so wrong. Even with a gold based currency fractional reserve banking still works and and doesn't mean the bank can do what wants and the wealth created is just an illusion, which is what is claimed. 

It would be claimed that the total gold in existence in the example society given in the video is only X amount, and therefore when the bank lends out more money than it has this is money that has been created out of thin air and has no basis. They also claim that the money lent out is only backed by that debt and promise to pay it back, however that doesn't explain the full story. The money lent out could be looked at as being backed by the project that the bank is lending the money to create. If that project does well then it will generate real wealth and the ecomony will get better, if it fails then the ecomomy will get worse. This really has nothing to do with printing money, or money on a computer, the basic idea is the same. Money has to be based on something. The reason for the need for the bailouts in the first place is because the loans the banks made were bad, meaning that they gave loans to people that they couldn't recover money from because their projects failed and therefore real wealth was not generated from them.

Many of the myths I read in your post are addressed here:
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/ ... art-three/

Because they also show up in every Federal Reserve CT.

_*Money and the Federal Reserve System:
Myth and Reality* by G. Thomas Woodward - Specialist in Macroeconomics
Economics Division:_
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm

What you should be asking yourself is why when describing the FED you sound exactly like any typical conspiracy theorist whereas experts like Khan don't describe it that way and don't see it that way. Could it be maybe you don't understand this like you think you do and that maybe you have been listening to the wrong people? Because either people like Khan and Woodward (and the majority of experts) are incompetent or stupid or they are in on a big conspiracy to lie to everyone. Which is more likely? I ask this for every CT including 911 truthers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2011)

It would be an f-ing disaster if the Fed were directly under control of Congress. As it is they're succumbing to political pressure by conservatives, and that sucks.

And Jose, Ron Paul wants the Fed disbanded. Nobody is arguing with him about what it is.

The guy is a loon, just so you know.

***
audun, despite what you read - and I have no doubt that you did read it, because it's all over the place - there is nothing anywhere to show that we are in any danger of hyperinflation whatsoever. Nothing nowhere nohow. And if the people with real money were worried about the dollar tanking then our longterm interest rates would have been rising. They are really, really low.


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## P.T. (May 8, 2011)

People who seem to know economics currently can't agree whether we are headed for inflation or deflation.
It's more complex than how much money gets printed.


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## José Herring (May 8, 2011)

Ed @ Sun May 08 said:


> josejherring @ Sun May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I watched most of the videos Ed. that's pretty basic stuff. Money as a representation of production and exchange.
> ...



I happened to be by my computer and I watched 5 minutes of the first one and 5 minutes of the next one. He wasn't going over anything that I haven't already learned so I clicked it off.

If you must know....

But, when I feel like it. I'll review them all. Including the current ones.

best,

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2011)

> People who seem to know economics currently can't agree whether we are headed for inflation or deflation.
> It's more complex than how much money gets printed.



Yes it's more complicated, but the conservative people who seem to know economics are ignoring what has been learned over the past several decades.

There is plenty of ideology to say that we are headed for inflation (because people don't like the idea that yes, we really do need big government for many things - including managing the economy), but there is zero evidence.

And in fact we're not.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2011)

By coincidence this is from Paul Krugman's blog today:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/0 ... r-the-bed/


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## Mick Emery (May 8, 2011)

In 1900, you could buy a custom made suit for an ounce of gold or 20 U.S. dollars.
Today you can still buy a custom made suit for an ounce of gold.


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## Ed (May 8, 2011)

Mick Emery @ Sun May 08 said:


> In 1900, you could buy a custom made suit for an ounce of gold or 20 U.S. dollars.
> Today you can still buy a custom made suit for an ounce of gold.



If the US discovers millions of tons of gold in Texas and no other gold can be found anywhere else on earth, does that mean the US economy is suddenly extremely wealthy while all the other world economies are not? Just what use is gold as a representation of wealth?

Would you rather banks hold 100% of reserves? Would you rather banks be backed entirely by gold?


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## Mick Emery (May 8, 2011)

> Just what use is gold as a representation of wealth?


About the same use it has been for approximately 6,000 years.



> If the US discovers millions of tons of gold in Texas and no other gold can be found anywhere else on earth, does that mean the US economy is suddenly extremely wealthy while all the other world economies are not?


If Saudi Arabia discovers millions of barrels of oil while other countries don't, does it mean they are wealthier? *The answer is yes.*


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## Ed (May 8, 2011)

Mick Emery @ Sun May 08 said:


> > Just what use is gold as a representation of wealth?
> 
> 
> About the same use it has been for approximately 6,000 years.



You did not answer the questions I asked you, the reason is because you can't. There is not enough gold in the world to base a global modern economy around, thats a fact, sorry.

Ah I see you edited your post:



> If Saudi Arabia discovers millions of barrels of oil while other countries don't, does it mean they are wealthier? The answer is yes.



Only because they can sell it as oil has value. No one says Gold isn't worth anything, I'm saying said that the idea that we can construct the worlds economy around the "gold standard" is nonsence. I ask you again, are you suggesting banks hold 100% of reserves and be entirely backed by gold?


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## Mick Emery (May 8, 2011)

> You did not answer the questions I asked you, the reason is because you can't. There is not enough gold in the world to base a global modern economy around, thats a fact, sorry.


It would depend on the value you place on gold. It's no different than the value placed on anything else. It's just that gold has been used as the standard for millenia.

By the way...why are you under the impression I have to answer your questions? 

Gold has approximately the same value to trade for goods as it always had. The silver in a pre 1965 dime will buy a gallon of gas today. Why is that? Why only a pre 1965 dime? Why not one of today's dimes? Because a dime isn't worth a dime anymore. Why? Who controls the "money"? Why doesn't it have the value it once did? Who changed the value? Who's in charge of the value of currency? I would think the market should be, but apparently it's not.

No...it's the "smart" people. The people who think they have it all figured out. The ones who put us in this mess. The one's that, all by themselves, decided that the way trade was conducted for thousands of years wasn't good enough anymore. Because they decided it wasn't.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you want 2 chickens for your pig and I want the pig & am willing to trade, that's what the pig is worth to me. If the Fed raised chickens, I'd say great! But it doesn't produce anything but paper. It's not lending anything of true value, but expects people to produce things of value to repay it. 

_As a side note...I studied religion for 40 years. I became a devout atheist. I have since changed from that. When someone can tell me where "the stuff" came from that allowed the big bang to happen, I'll change back. _


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## Mick Emery (May 8, 2011)

> Gold is basically useless.


Please send me all your useless gold! LOL!!


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## George Caplan (May 9, 2011)

on currency i would buy dollars on a forward contract. but who in their right mind has kept most of their money in cash form over the last 5 years?


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

Mick Emery @ Sun May 08 said:


> > You did not answer the questions I asked you, the reason is because you can't. There is not enough gold in the world to base a global modern economy around, thats a fact, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> It would depend on the value you place on gold. It's no different than the value placed on anything else. It's just that gold has been used as the standard for millenia.



Our advances and innovation in society should not have to wait on whether we can find some gold. In earlier times and on a small scale gold can work much better, sure, but not a modern economy for a modern society.



> By the way...why are you under the impression I have to answer your questions?



Because if you did you'd have to admit the gold standard cannot sustain a modern economy.



> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you want 2 chickens for your pig and I want the pig & am willing to trade, that's what the pig is worth to me. If the Fed raised chickens, I'd say great! But it doesn't produce anything but paper. It's not lending anything of true value, but expects people to produce things of value to repay it.



All money is a means with which to *create *wealth, money is not wealth in itself. Unless you're trading chickens for a pig, if you're trading gold pieces the only reason you think the gold is worth anything is because everyone agrees that it is worth something, same with bank notes now. If you have the choice between living on an island made of gold and no natural resources or a island full of animals, fruit trees and drinking water but no gold, you're going to choose that one because the gold itself would be worthless. Gold is a *representation *of wealth, just like our money is today. What makes it a poor standard is that it would mean the economy would be arbitrarily controlled by this finite and relatively worthless resource.

What you don't seem to understand is that even if we had a gold standard we would still need fractional reserve banking, which is "creating money out of thin air", or the economy would slow to a halt. Without fractional reserve banking the entire system would need to be changed, it has nothing to do with the Federal Reserve so getting rid of it would make no difference whatsoever, except for the worse. However if banks not only had to keep 100% of reserves but also required gold as the basis of that money, then we would be slaves to however much gold we could find in the world. It wouldn't matter how much productivity and real wealth could be generated, if you can't find any gold too bad, you're completely screwed since you can't build anything or pay anyone. 

That doesn't mean theres nothing wrong with fractional reserve banking, or there's no way to do it differently, but this idea that the gold standard and 100% reserves will fix everything is nonsense.

I suggest you watch this introduction to Fractional Reserve Banking: (still uses the gold standard)




And this one too on Gold:






> _As a side note...I studied religion for 40 years. I became a devout atheist. I have since changed from that. When someone can tell me where "the stuff" came from that allowed the big bang to happen, I'll change back. _



Somehow I doubt that, not that this is the thread for this, but you have somehow started with the assumption that the big bang needed "stuff" to "happen" and you have somehow also taken the leap to go on to assume that therefore an all knowing consciousness must have created everything but also doesn't require the same original question to be answered, and why not? Because you made the arbitrary rules. So you fail at the first hurdle of logic, but I suggest you start a new thread if you want to continue.

Tell me, are you also a 911 conspiracy theorist? Just wondering.


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## Peter Alexander (May 9, 2011)

fyi Unofficial History of the Federal Reserve Bank
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1095269452.php

Official History
http://www.federalreserveeducation.org/ ... d/history/

The Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation. It's alleged primary owners are:

1. Rothschild's of London and Berlin
2. Lazard Brothers of Paris
3. Israel Moses Seaf of Italy
4. Kuhn, Loeb & Co. of Germany and New York
5. Warburg & Company of Hamburg, Germany
6. Lehman Brothers of New York (DECEASED!)
7. Goldman, Sachs of New York
8. Rockefeller Brothers of New York


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Mon May 09 said:


> fyi Unofficial History of the Federal Reserve Bank
> http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1095269452.php
> 
> Official History
> ...



No these are all conspiracy myths....


http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm




> *PUBLIC OR PRIVATE?*
> 
> The public/private nature of the institution has given rise to the claim that the Fed is a "private corporation." This claim is not correct. Part of the system consists of private corporations. Part is a federal agency.
> 
> ...




http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm


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## Peter Alexander (May 9, 2011)

Well all I can say, Ed, is that I'm so glad you're as informed on our history and our country as you are.


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Mon May 09 said:


> Well all I can say, Ed, is that I'm so glad you're as informed on our history and our country as you are.



I'm not that well versed in banking, that quote was from an economist (link at the bottom of the post) but I am familar with conspiracy theorists and they all sound the same. Some of these conspiracy meme's get passed to people that don't realise where they came from. For example most of these banking myths have their roots in anti-semitism, many people promoting these myths don't realise that. 

Here the ADL deals with various myths about the Federal Reserve in relation to Jews:
http://www.adl.org/special_reports/control_of_fed/print.asp (http://www.adl.org/special_reports/cont ... /print.asp) For example one of the issues deals with your claim:



> *About the Federal Reserve System*
> 
> The Federal Reserve System is the central banking authority of the United States. It is a fiscal agency for the U.S. Government and custodian of the reserve accounts of commercial banks; it makes loans to the commercial banks; and is authorized to issue Federal Reserve notes — that is, the hand-to-hand currency with which we run our daily economic lives.
> 
> ...



Conspiracy theorists that are serious about their conspiracy theories often end up promoting more than one, the main other is the idea that the Income Tax is illegal and unconstitutional. One of the most well known underground films is Aaron Russo's "http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/F2F.htm (Freedom to Fascism)" where he also claims that 911 was an inside Job and that there is a world wide conspiracy to microchip everyone and track them. Another is Zeitgeist 1 and Addendum which voices a wide array of conspiracy theories, a major backbone of the whole is these banking myths and lies.

What I said to Jose before is what i'll say to you, if only conspiracy theorists and fringe people talk about the financial system the way you do this either means all the other experts are ignorant, or they are stupid or they are intentionally lying to people. Maybe the reason they don't is becauò È   ¢ÅP È   ¢Åh È   ¢Ç_ È   ¢Ç³ È   ¢öÇ È   ¢öà È   £)


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

chimuelo @ Mon May 09 said:


> The same old money that has ruled global finance since banks were created.
> They funded the Third Reich and at the same time funded the FDR Lend and lease programs, while they sat back and enjoyed the show.
> 
> "Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."
> Mayer Amschel Rothschild



Except the Federal Reserve Act was passed in 1913 while Rothschild died in 1812. 

Even worse, others can't find the source of this quote at all




> _*4. Nathan Mayer Rothschild quote: "Give me control to create a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws.”
> *
> Fake.
> 
> I looked into this some years ago. The quote (usually attributed to Nathan Meyer Rothschild, but sometimes to other members of the family) appears in no biography of the Rothschild family known to me. Neither Niall Ferguson nor Frederick Morton cite it. (Actually, I wrote to Ferguson about this, but he never wrote back.) The earliest citations I could find were in anti-Semitic publications. Nathan Meyer Rothschild did say some pretty hair-raising things “way back when,” but for some reason the anti-Semites prefer this faò È   Å–é È   Å–þ È   Å—Á È   Å˜& È   Å N È   Å \ È   Å ¥ È   Å µ È   Å£§ È   Å£É È   Å¨9 È   Å¨– È   Å«	 È   Å«‡ È   Å¬b È   Å¬¢ È   Å°Å È   Å°Î È   Å³ô È   Å´ È   Åµí È   Å¶ È   Å¸è È   Å¹ È   Å¾» È   Å¿ È   Å¿ È   Å¿' È   ÅÉð È   ÅÊ È   ÅÐØ È   ÅÑ È   Åßæ È   ÅàA È   Åæ± È   Åç7 È   Åð” È   Åðì È   ÅúY È   Åú— È   Æ.Ã È   Æ/! È   Æ/q È   Æ/¦ È   Æ/ß È   Æ0 È   Æ?  È   Æ?2 È   ÆAd È   ÆAt È   ÆA— È   ÆAÖ È   ÆC‚ È   ÆCë È   ÆRþ È   ÆS] È   Æ`& È   Æ`H È   Æb È   Æb È   Æp{ È   Æp£ È   ÆsÃ È   ÆsÕ È   Æt‹ È   Æt¦ È_


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## Audun Jemtland (May 9, 2011)

Gold has value because man gave gold value,we might as well have given coffee beans the value gold has. It's what we make of it. There is no value IN stuff itself,it's merely in our heads.

"The Aztecs used cocoa beans as currency and praised it more valuable than gold"


This is what makes me think,nothing else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A&NR=1

I can't say what it is or what it isn't,I have no idea. But I assume that not everyone in charge wants what's best for people around them


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## madbulk (May 9, 2011)

I only need to look at the stills atop Ed's video's to agree that if you wanna know essentially how it works and why adding money to the system isn't imaginary, it's probably worth a few minutes to look at them.

And maybe let's not spend too much more time on arguing about whether you can eat gold or not. It's the standard of wealth will keep on being. Gold is money. It is fun to think about though. Buffett said all the gold that has been mined is a 65x65 foot cube. You could put it in a really big shed. 8 Trillion Dollars worth. Produces nada.


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

audun jemtland @ Mon May 09 said:


> This is what makes me think,nothing else:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A&NR=1



Wtf? :roll: What does insane 911 conspiracy thories have to do with what you were just talking about?


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## Audun Jemtland (May 9, 2011)

Ed @ Mon May 09 said:


> audun jemtland @ Mon May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > This is what makes me think,nothing else:
> ...


Calm down I'm not a CT :lol: 
Because maybe IF it was an self opposed destruction then maybe it had something to do with obtaining more wealth? (natural resources,oil,gas)

Remember that all this conspiracy stuff came from the first witnesses of the *proof* at hand.Fire and police folks. Why is it so strange for people that stuff like this can't be true? It has happened before. And notice how it is judged and written in stone that the news are FACTS and the Conspiracy theories are THEORIES. "outrageous,you are a nut,THIS is the truth." What about the nuts, do you think they really want to spend years of they're lives screaming "inside job"? They've been at this for years,I think they would rather be home and spend time with their loved ones,oh no that's right,they've lost them.

I can agree that an "conspiracy theorist" will automatically look for more and more clues and take it to a complete different level. But what about if the level wasn't so far from reality? 
There are good poeple on both sides here,I'm just sayin,let's not completely ignore one or the other. And maybe this self opposed attack (if true) has something to do with Money in the end?

Btw, why is there frustration behind peoples arguments here?


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 9, 2011)

> but who in their right mind has kept most of their money in cash form over the last 5 years?



Not me. I've spent it all.


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

audun jemtland @ Mon May 09 said:


> Remember that all this conspiracy stuff came from the first witnesses of the *proof* at hand.Fire and police folks. Why is it so strange for people that stuff like this can't be true?



Are you still talking about 911? If you mean they were taken out of context, sure,. they certainly were. You try and find a single firefighter that believes a single thing that truthers claim about WTC7 for example, you just won't find one. Look at chimuelo, like other CTists he uses ths false quote from Amschel Rothschild as if he was refering to the Federal Reserve when he died a hundred years before that was set up, not even talking about the fact that the FRB's profits go back to the treasury. CTists make out that a group of rich bankers own the FRB and make loads of money off of it. Its common for CTs to misquote people. Chimuelo probably didn't do it on purpose, he is just repeating stuff others told him or stuff he has read which is why when you look for these quotes in context they usually don't say what they are implied to mean, or they don't exist at all which seems to be the case with that quote. 




> What about the nuts, do you think they really want to spend years of they're lives screaming "inside job"? They've been at this for years,I think they would rather be home and spend time with their loved ones,oh no that's right,they've lost them.



I can assure you that the truthers are generally not the ones who have lost people on 911, even though there are some loud examples. And yes, they do want to keep doing it. people like Alex Jones, or Richard Gage or David Ray Griffin make a LOT of money off the people who just want to believe it. I've debated these guys for god knows how long and it doesn't matter how riduiculous the idea they cling to it like a religion, and I should know, I used to believe as they did.






> I can agree that an "conspiracy theorist" will automatically look for more and more clues and take it to a complete different level. But what about if the level wasn't so far from reality?
> There are good poeple on both sides here,I'm just sayin,let's not completely ignore one or the other. And maybe this self opposed attack (if true) has something to do with Money in the end?
> 
> Btw, why is there frustration behind peoples arguments here?



To be honest I really don't understand your point here, what bothers me in this thread is banking myths that are rife within conspiracy theorist circles that get spread around.


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## chimuelo (May 9, 2011)

Ed you obviously benefit from Government programs, so I won't even waste time in copy/paste race as I have read auto biographies from Rockefellar since I was interested in his son Davids disappearance. That's where you can find quotes and knowledge from.
Not from reading the first two sentances of an article, or hanging out with fellow Pro Nanny Government anti CT blogs. 
For every anti Rothschild quote and remark, I am sure you will come back with belief in alien insults, or calling anyone you disagree with a CT or racist.

I enjoy my life and don't mind that the elites have ruled the monetary system, and always will. As long as I continue the priveledge of doing what I love for a living, I'll be just fine. Unfortunately these elites are responsible for endless wars where millions have died, dating back to the Civil War where the Rothschilds were after the monetary funds of the USA even then. So defend these folks all you want.
But do read into the paragraphs on occasion or break down and buy a book, as people are held responsible for publishing documents, not searches on the Internet.

And Yes, I believe we were visited by ancient terrestrial beings in the past becasue I understand construction, and demolition as well as deterioration of concrete.
This is a fascinating subject to which I don't have the answers, but I won't let your quest in winning every little argument on a forum deter me from continued readings from Van Danikken and other " Conspiracy Theorists. "

I'd love to hear you defend the Governments cover up about Area 51. But I think I already know that answer, bringing UFO's into the equation made those " CT's " appear as nutty loons, just like you try to do here, but have absolutely no success at.

As I said, I am a proud CT. But a CT that demands proof and will actually spend a buck to find the truth, as opposed to another search/overload googler too cheap to buy a hard copy.

Here's another quote I am sure you will try and rationalize against, but this is Rockys' own auto Biography. Amazon is pretty cheap, and the paperback won't cost as much as the hard copy.

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. 

If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

chimuelo @ Mon May 09 said:


> Ed you obviously benefit from Government programs,



What does that mean?



> so I won't even waste time in copy/paste race as I have read auto biographies from Rockefellar since I was interested in his son Davids disappearance. That's where you can find quotes and knowledge from.



So where's that quote taken from? 

And why are so many using that quote as if he was talking about the Federal Reserve Act despite him having died a *hundred years* before it was set up?



> Not from reading the first two sentances of an article, or hanging out with fellow Pro Nanny Government anti CT blogs.
> For every anti Rothschild quote and remark, I am sure you will come back with belief in alien insults, or calling anyone you disagree with a CT or racist.



I didn't say you were a racist, I said that these banking CT's have anti-semitic roots. I firmly believe that many or even most David Icke fans really do believe in shapeshifting reptilian aliens, but everything Icke says is just anti-Jewish CT's dunked in science fiction. 



> So defend these folks all you want.



You still haven't dealt with the fact that even though the quote is probably fraudulent and he couldn't have been refering to the federal reserve act its completely irrelevant. The Federal Reserve is not owned by private bankers and they do not profit from its profits. They do not "have control" over the nations money like you suggest they do, sorry. 



> But do read into the paragraphs on occasion or break down and buy a book, as people are held responsible for publishing documents, not searches on the Internet.



And Alex Jones will tell you its "all admitted", its in their books and their speeches he will say. But if you really listen to what he thinks he is hearing, you get a very different picture. 




> And Yes, I believe we were visited by ancient terrestrial beings in the past becasue I understand construction, and demolition as well as deterioration of concrete.
> This is a fascinating subject to which I don't have the answers, but I won't let your quest in winning every little argument on a forum deter me from continued readings from Van Danikken and other " Conspiracy Theorists. "



Good lord, Erich von Däniken? The guy who was found guilty of embezzlement, forgery and fraud and was sentenced to three and a half years in prison???? :lol: ~o) 

I'm not sure why you also mentioned "demolition", you believe in 911 CT's too?



> As I said, I am a proud CT. But a CT that demands proof and will actually spend a buck to find the truth, as opposed to another search/overload googler too cheap to buy a hard copy.



Apparently that means means reading books by known felons and frauds. CTs think that real research means reading and/or watching lots of CT books and films. 




> Here's another quote I am sure you will try and rationalize against, but this is Rockys' own auto Biography. Amazon is pretty cheap, and the paperback won't cost as much as the hard copy.
> 
> "For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will.
> 
> If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."



Sorry to say its another classic CT quote mine.

You're reading what you want to read. He is not saying he is proud of working against the interests of the US, what he is saying is that he is proud of wanting "_a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will._". He has no problem openly saying he wants integration, but apparently you think this is a conscious admission that him and his family have been conspiring against the best interests of the US for some nafarious selfish purpose. There is no reason to assume he means that either logically or gramatically. The reason we should strongly suspect that he is not proud of the part about being apart of a secret cabal is that by admitting it in his famous memoirs would mean its not secret anymore. But for some reason CTists just assume that these people are so mustache twirlingly evil they can't help themselves to just admit the whole conspiracy, either that or they are just too stupid I suppose. They love quotes like this even though their interpretation makes absolutely no sence, but quite frustatingly for them no one else can see it.

Here's another quote from 2007: (note: "Memoirs" was published in 2002)

_"I don't recall that I have said — and I don't think that I really feel — that we need a world government. We need governments of the world that work together and collaborate. But, I can't imagine that there would be any likelihood — or even that it would be desirable — to have a single government elected by the people of the world. "_
- 11:18 mins into of this interview

In the same interview he also said:

_"There have been people—ever since I've had any kind of position in the world—who have accused me of being ruler of the world. I have to say that I think for the large part, I would have to decide to describe them as crack pots. It makes no sense whatsoever, and isn't true, and won't be true, and to raise it as a serious issue seems to me to be irresponsible"_


But I guess in this case he was lying, right? Did you know Silverstein admitted to blowing up WTC7 on TV and Rumsfeld admitted to shooting down U93? But then they pretend they didn't! Those swine! Its all so obvious, why don't people see it!?! */saracsm*


----------



## madbulk (May 9, 2011)

These discussions are bizarre beyond words.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 9, 2011)

Agreed. I can't believe it's still going on.


----------



## Audun Jemtland (May 9, 2011)

Ed @ Mon May 09 said:


> You try and find a single firefighter that believes a single thing that truthers claim about WTC7 for example, you just won't find one.



Is this valid? I see a couple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXD3bAbZCow

I think 911 is the most revealing *incident* in the history of human kind. Taken that it's s*itloads of recorded video and audio. Don't need no CT's to confirm or de-comfirm anything.* It is what it is.*


----------



## Ed (May 9, 2011)

audun jemtland @ Mon May 09 said:


> Ed @ Mon May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > You try and find a single firefighter that believes a single thing that truthers claim about WTC7 for example, you just won't find one.
> ...



Urgh,,., well since this thread is a mess anyway and Nick already debunked the premise, why not ...  

No, these don't count. For a start they are not refering to WTC7. Not only do firefighters not supprt anything truthers say about that there are dozens and dozens that have all said the opposite, but lets get back to this video. 

They are all out of context, every single one of them. Notice how in the first clip he says it was "as if" it had explosives there, truthers don't understand hyperbole. I challenge them to find these firefighters today and see if they really do think that there was explosives in the towers, why don't they want to do that you think? The fact is we need not rely on witness' to the collapse to know if there were explosions or to know what it looked like, since there are numerous videos taken all around the building. We just don't have any sounds of any explosions. Note that i'm not saying the collapse was silent, it obviously wasn't and we shouldn't expect it to be. But we know what explosives sound like, check any other demolition. Its very obvious. Yet truthers like Richard Gage claim massive intense explosives flung heavy steel hundreds of feet away from the building, this is something no real demolition is even trying to do. In reality explosives this intense would have deafened everyone in the area, but of course we don't hear that. Gage also claims that it was quiet because they used thermate, ignoring the fact that thermate is not a high explosive, but even if it was to hurl steel around it would have to be just as loud ie. he doesn't understand explosives or sound.

The next thing worth pointing out is that truthers don't understand that people hearing explosions, hearing "blasts" and even hearing sounds like "bombs" are common when even the people talking about it know they are not refering to explosives or bombs. See this video for some examples. So we should expect people to hear these things on 911. There is also the fact that along with reports of explosions on 911 many people report fireballs out the elevator shafts. Now you see fire is not a characteristic of a high explosive, but it is a characteristic of a fuel air explosion. So jet fuel vapors drifts down and gets ignited when it reaches a more oxygen rich environment, this also explains why people smelled jet fuel all the way down to as low as the 6th sub basement. What IS associated with high explosives are blast injuries. It is baffling to me why truthers continue to claim that people were caught in an explosion by a bomb and thrown around by one, when no one on 911 suffered any injuries associated with explosives. What kind of explosives can destroy infrastructure yet just burn a few people? None can, if you get that close to one you're going to be ripped to shreds first. So this means if explosives were used the way truthers claim they were, they would have served no use whatsoever.

At 1.47 is one of my "favourite" quote-mines. Favourite because its so shockingly dishonest. Chief Palmer is the firefighter in question who died on 911, when he said that there were only "two isolated pockets of fire" he was not refering to the entire building but specifically *one floor, * floor 78. This is a picture of where floor 78 was in relation to the fires, and here is another. *No one* claims that there was an inferno on those floors. This quote used like this is another excellent example of dishonesty by these people. Why won't they show all the quotes of the firefighters saying they saw the building leaning? Or when they saw WTC7 groaning, bulging, and that they knew it was going to collapse? Nope, because that doesn't fit their false history. 

At 2.56 we see they try and claim they have video of the explosions, but left the audio off. Presumably because they know it sounds nothing like real explosives. We also have video much more close up video practically right underneath the towers and all we have is a slow rumble turning into a roar.This is what a real demolition sounds likeand even then its nowhere near as loud as what the explosives on 911 would have sounded like if what truthers are saying were true. 

Frankly at this point I'm bored and as I scanned through the rest I couldn't see anything else with firefighters in it so I'm going to stop there.


----------



## Audun Jemtland (May 10, 2011)

Ed @ Mon May 09 said:


> audun jemtland @ Mon May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Mon May 09 said:
> ...



Urgh,,., well since this thread is a mess anyway and Nick already debunked the premise, why not ...  

No, these don't count. For a start they are not refering to WTC7. Not only do firefighters not supprt anything truthers say about that there are dozens and dozens that have all said the opposite, but lets get back to this video. 

They are all out of context, every single one of them. Notice how in the first clip he says it was "as if" it had explosives there, truthers don't understand hyperbole. I challenge them to find these firefighters today and see if they really do think that there was explosives in the towers, why don't they want to do that you think? The fact is we need not rely on witness' to the collapse to know if there were explosions or to know what it looked like, since there are numerous videos taken all around the building. We just don't have any sounds of any explosions. Note that i'm not saying the collapse was silent, it obviously wasn't and we shouldn't expect it to be. But we know what explosives sound like, check any other demolition. Its very obvious. Yet truthers like Richard Gage claim massive intense explosives flung heavy steel hundreds of feet away from the building, this is something no real demolition is even trying to do. In reality explosives this intense would have deafened everyone in the area, but of course we don't hear that. Gage also claims that it was quiet because they used thermate, ignoring the fact that thermate is not a high explosive, but even if it was to hurl steel around it would have to be just as loud ie. he doesn't understand explosives or sound.

The next thing worth pointing out is that truthers don't understand that people hearing explosions, hearing "blasts" and even hearing sounds like "bombs" are common when even the people talking about it know they are not refering to explosives or bombs. See this video for some examples. So we should expect people to hear these things on 911. There is also the fact that along with reports of explosions on 911 many people report fireballs out the elevator shafts. Now you see fire is not a characteristic of a high explosive, but it is a characteristic of a fuel air explosion. So jet fuel vapors drifts down and gets ignited when it reaches a more oxygen rich environment, this also explains why people smelled jet fuel all the way down to as low as the 6th sub basement. What IS associated with high explosives are blast injuries. It is baffling to me why truthers continue to claim that people were caught in an explosion by a bomb and thrown around by one, when no one on 911 suffered any injuries associated with explosives. What kind of explosives can destroy infrastructure yet just burn a few people? None can, if you get that close to one you're going to be ripped to shreds first. So this means if explosives were used the way truthers claim they were, they would have served no use whatsoever.

At 1.47 is one of my "favourite" quote-mines. Favourite because its so shockingly dishonest. Chief Palmer is the firefighter in question who died on 911, when he said that there were only "two isolated pockets of fire" he was not refering to the entire building but specifically *one floor, * floor 78. This is a picture of where floor 78 was in relation to the fires, and here is another. *No one* claims that there was an inferno on those floors. This quote used like this is another excellent example of dishonesty by these people. Why won't they show all the quotes of the firefighters saying they saw the building leaning? Or when they saw WTC7 groaning, bulging, and that they knew it was going to collapse? Nope, because that doesn't fit their false history. 

At 2.56 we see they try and claim they have video of the explosions, but left the audio off. Presumably because tò Ï   ßªØ Ï   ßÝ{ Ï   ßÝ~ Ï   ßßô Ï   ßà Ï   ßà Ï   ßà* Ï   ßùK Ï   ßùÒ Ï   à,$ Ï   à,L Ï   àqj Ï   àq© Ï   à Ï   àÁ Ï   àÓN Ï   àÓt Ï   àà< Ï   ààE Ï   àáï Ï   àáö Ï   ákS Ï   ák‚ Ï   ás Ï   ás Ï   áã¬ Ï   áãó Ï   á÷Ü Ï   á÷õ Ï   áùÑ Ï   áùÙ Ï   áýí Ï   áþ< Ï   âT Ï   â¤ Ï   â× Ï   âö Ï   âþ Ï   â	 Ï   â>è Ï   â? Ï   â9 Ï   âJ Ï   â Ï   â Ï   â¯M Ï   â¯x Ï   ã$â Ï   ã$ç Ï   ãÊ+ Ï   ãÊ\ Ï   ãÕF Ï   ãÕu Ï   ããµ Ï   ããÀ Ï   ä€¹ Ï   ä€Â Ï   ä‚_ Ï   ä‚f Ï   ä‚´ Ï   ä‚Á Ï   äÀŸ Ï   äÀ¤ Ï   äÀ¨ Ï   äÀ­ Ï   äÀÙ Ï   äÀä Ï   äÁá Ï   äÂ Ï   äÊQ Ï   äÊ^ Ï   äåÄ Ï   äåÔ Ï   äî" Ï   äî0 Ï   äþæ Ï   äþó Ï   å Ý Ï   å Ï   å@ Ï   ån Ï   å Ï   å Ï   åu Ï   åu7 Ï   åwh Ï   åw€ Ï   åyt Ï   åy‘ Ï   å›S Ï   å›i Ï   å¾ Ï   å¾# Ï   åÓœ Ï   åÓ¾ Ï   åàé Ï   åàü Ï   ær Ï   æ¡ Ï   æ x Ï   æ © Ï   æ*« Ï   æ*ã Ï   æ/| Ï   æ/› Ï   æ“‡ Ï   æ“– Ï   æÉL Ï   æÉX Ï   æË Ï   æË( Ï   æî6              ò Ï   æñ Ï   æñ” Ï   ç‚' Ï   ç‚2 Ï   çƒÈ Ï   çƒø Ï   ç«l Ï   ç«u Ï   èF Ï   èy Ï   ès Ï   è· Ï   è4V Ï   è4d Ï   èE_ Ï   èE¬ Ï   è[} Ï   è[– Ï   èf* Ï   èf` Ï   è€è Ï   è€î Ï   è¨x Ï   è¨Œ Ï   è¨¯ Ï   è¨Ü Ï   è¼= Ï   è¼O Ï   èâë Ï   èã  Ï   èùµ Ï   èù¸ Ï   é&5 Ï   é&Æ Ï   éWµ Ï   éW» Ï   éXŒ Ï   éXé Ï   ém; Ï   émx Ï   éœ Ï   éœ< Ï   éÂy Ï   éÂ‰ Ï   éÃ— Ï   éÃ¸ Ï   éÔˆ Ï   éÔ• Ï   éÕè Ï   éÕø Ï   éÝ© Ï   éÞ Ï   êž Ï   ê´ Ï   êV Ï   êV
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## Audun Jemtland (May 10, 2011)

madbulk @ Tue May 10 said:


> I used to laugh and move on. But it's getting harder because the internet and social media allow the ridiculous people to fill my life with links that support this stuff. There's more to laugh about, sure, but it's only funny about 100x a day.
> In my opinion a cow will jump over the moon any second now. It's my opinion. Don't anybody call me nuts or anything.
> Tomorrow I'm gonna start a thread insisting that you all consider the possibility that my cow will indeed fly. And you non-believers can have at me. But I'll be back the next damn day with a photo of some clouds where the cow had just been. You'll be able to see the hole in the cloud, etc.


But what if someone recorded the cow fly? :D Ok I'll stop

I think we limit ourselves to much,remember that we here especially on the forum have something that can expand for all eternity; Creativity.
With that power god knows what we'd find.

Don't any hotshot argue on that,please let me have that one 8)


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## George Caplan (May 12, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon May 09 said:


> > but who in their right mind has kept most of their money in cash form over the last 5 years?
> 
> 
> 
> Not me. I've spent it all.




yes i can believe that.


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## Audun Jemtland (Oct 10, 2013)

I made this thread 2 years ago. What is happening in America then/and now will affect the rest of the world. 

What is the supposedly clever solution to pay this debt back?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2013)

The clever solution would be to go much farther into debt and fill in the $1 trillion shortfall in our economy.

What too many people don't understand: that would have the effect of *lowering* our debt, because we're wasting incredible amounts of money in the form of unemployed people who could be productive.


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## gsilbers (Oct 10, 2013)

lmo lower defense spending and subsudies to specific industries. cut lobbying and cut student loans to careers that are already filled and no jobs are available. 

govemtn is like a regular person, it gets used to being rich and spending but when it tme to change lifestyles then they wont until somethign dramatic happens.


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## chimuelo (Oct 10, 2013)

Don't expect wealthy redistributors to barter with their lucrative loan sharking business.
Sallie Mae estimates 50,000,000,000 this year in interest payments on student loans.

The plan was expanded while millions of kids cannot do anything with their degree...??
Yeah, let's ruin another program then bail it out and take credit for saving it with working folks money.

But fear not, those who work for a living and can't modify their mortgage since they co-signed for their kids loan, so they are the ones ensuring wealthy redistribution is a lifelong career, as opposed to the original concept of serving.

The Feds are more than happy to loan parents who work a loan. You get to borrow back the money they took from you at a selected interest rate.

If you were a freind on Wall Street like Jack Lew, Jon Corzine, etc. you get an interest free loan. Even the Banks are allowed interest free loans from the Feds, which they then turn around and charge interest on, to their clients.

This again reinforces my opinion of how these characters in DC are all of the same species. For further proof it took a Bi Partisan bill to exempt themselves from the Health Care laws the commoners are bound by law to pay into. 
Even while their website won't let you enroll, you are priveledged enough to pay the fine at years end. I guarantee you with their money, the failure rates aren't the same.

Think about it, the Banks, Wall Street bros, the Feds, the AFL-CIO,...sorry I mean the department of Labor.......everyone of them making bank off of the working people, and they even have us thanking them at a chance to borrow our money back + the vig.........that's brilliant.


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## JonFairhurst (Oct 11, 2013)

If you've ever applied for a student loan for your kid(s), you've submitted a FAFSA. At first, it seems like it's trying to help you figure out how much you can afford to pay per month for college. After it does its calculations, you realize that it's figuring out how much you can afford to borrow.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 11, 2013)

FAFSA is a cross between a scavenger hunt and a proctological exam.


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## chimuelo (Oct 11, 2013)

I wish the guys who designed that site could have done the ACA site and saved 500,000,000 USD.

In all fairness though, I am also a hypocrit. I should be glad my neice will be the first MD in our family, as my brother is on the hook for 140k, which meant he wouldn't be calling me.... :mrgreen: 
I was upset that when he did decide to co-sign, nobody warned him that he wouldn't be able to re-fi his mortgage for a lower monthly at a later date. 
But an education where the child isn't just fishing is well worth the investment, especially in health care. 

I was semi prepared for my son, but was so relieved when he agreed to the apprenticeship program at the IBEW. By the time they break ground on the new 10 billion dollar super structure, he will be 65%, in 2015 a journeyman.
I can guarantee the money he makes, I will borrowing from him..... 

For some reason though, I still think I will be a worrying parent.
I wish everytime I had another son sometime would have reminded me I was going to worry twice as much now, or three times as much, and for the rest of your life... >8o


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## NYC Composer (Oct 12, 2013)

Re your son- good luck to him. Re you worries about him, I'd take them in a heartbeat.


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## Audun Jemtland (Oct 12, 2013)

What chimuelo says.

The "funny" thing is that finance is depentant on people being sick(health) Crime and war always happening (police & military) etc. IF everyone who works in those departements wants to get paid....So indirectly, an MD for instance get's paid because of someones bad health. And a military general get's paid because there is war. It's a unsustainable system from the get go. In addition to the skewed economy, you got things going on above our eyesight we don't even know about... And I recon the truth about things isn't very comfortable.

Also isn't a loan based on a trust between the worker and the bank? Which mean the bank creates a trust where one agrees to pay back the amount but based on the trust itself and not real money. If every person wanted hard cash lended out this wouldn'be be possible, which means the lended money doesn't even exist to begin with. But illusivery money put out into the system, inevitably going to collapse in the end...Am I completely off?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zPyZZIvwCc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnij ... ture=share)


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## chimuelo (Oct 13, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Oct 12 said:


> Re your son- good luck to him. Re you worries about him, I'd take them in a heartbeat.



Thanks... :wink: 
I am cursed by my grandfathers spirit. My mother was Miss Laguna Beach back in the 40s and the poor thing barely dated as Gramps had strict judgement tests where many dates that would come by and honk rather than meet him, he'd run them off.
When they did come into the house, he'd make sure he was busy cleaning his rifles when he stared them down.

Luckily I have only sons, if I had a duaghter knowing what I know these days, I'd be institutionalized or heavily sedated. >8o


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2013)

My son's in the military- 's why i wish i had your problems re concern. :cry:


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## chimuelo (Oct 13, 2013)

Been there bro. He re upped for a second tour in 2007, but got out, wife forced him to live with her family (retired IAF) outside of Aviano.
He's a commercial pilot now, and I'm a grandpa.

I'm sure you are a good proud worried parent....
Best Wishes

I bet you were sweating when Powers, Susan Rice, Hillary and Kerry were all saying different things during the Red Line debacle.
Thankfully Putin stepped in and took the leadership role away from that freak show.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2013)

chimuelo @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> Been there bro. He re upped for a second tour in 2007, but got out, wife forced him to live with her family (also retired IAF) outside of Aviano.
> He's a commercial pilot now, and I'm a grandpa.
> I never liked the idea of him being active military under a President that never served.
> George Bush, Sr. was the last President we had who worried about others children in harms way. Soldiers are the ones who hate war the most, but do the best when called upon to serve.
> These clowns we have like Kerry that use threats from an anti war activist past worry me more than Bush Jr. did, as they spin to what the polls say, while risking others lives, then promise to fight on unitl the last drop of your blood.



I'm glad everything worked out for your son.

I think it's bizarre that you are more concerned about Kerry than the retrospective on W, who, on the advice of his Vice President and his neocon pals, got us into two wars. One was arguably necessary but should have been an incursion to get Bin Laden or get out fast. The other was an unnecessary and incredibly costly war of aggression and a corporate boondoggle- with no exit strategy.

Let me know when Kerry catches up.


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## chimuelo (Oct 13, 2013)

As far as I know Bush supported 2 wars.
I see Kerry voting yes and supporting Kosovo, Libya, Bosnia, Egpyt and just dying for even more regime change in Syria. He set the pace IMO.

He was against protecting Kuwaitis when they were being raped, killed and tortured.
But the Human Rights Industry wasn't invented until Bosnia.

Voted to defund our troops twice while they were in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.
To just vote against wars started by Conservatives is not a qualification, and he flips and flops like a catfish on a sidewalk.
And having Edwards as a running mate.........?

It's not that he is wrong, he's never right...


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## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2013)

chimuelo @ Mon Oct 14 said:


> As far as I know Bush supported 2 wars.
> I see Kerry voting yes and supporting Kosovo, Libya, Bosnia, Egpyt and just dying for even more regime change in Syria. He set the pace IMO.
> 
> He was against protecting Kuwaitis when they were being raped, killed and tortured.
> ...



I wish Congress had defunded both wars long before we left Iraq and stayed in Afghanistan. The attack on Iraq was indefensible logically and criminal in both intent and in corporate swindle.

Btw-I think Bush was actually President when two wars were waged, at least in name. Kerry's not. The buck doesn't actually stop at his desk. It did at Bush's. He gave his Presidency away to the more experienced Mister Cheney. That turned out wonderfully. The buck stopped at Haliburton!


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## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2013)

I agree and even agree for a regime change strategy.
2014/and 2016 is a great time for using the voters own version of term limits.

Kerry is right now fighting to protect our interests aborad by extending our stay in Afghanistan and the Balkans and wants to fund them, imagine that.

And again both parties are in agreement to continue using our kids as targets.
Even more alraming is that the UN/NATO/EU/UK appuratus is all in on the continued use of troops for Taliban target practice.

We will protect the lucrative mining rights China has for the worlds largest lithium deposits which our NSGS (posing as red cross workers) discoverd back in 2005.
But in the meantime, human rights and protection of wealthy redistributors in Afghanistan who redistribute opium then take the cash to Dubai, which in turn gets redistributed to Las Vegas in places like City Center and the Aria can redistribute earned income to the Union workers here.

I guess it works out in the end... /\~O


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## germancomponist (Oct 14, 2013)




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## JohnG (Oct 14, 2013)

so the gold standard?

What a nut.


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## Audun Jemtland (Oct 17, 2013)

Not gold standard, that would be the same shit over and over again.
But good old Gold & Silver period. No more IN EXCHANGE of bonds, currency etc.


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## chimuelo (Oct 17, 2013)

Well the only correlation I see so far in the Gold market is that when Venezuala and Germany demand to be paid in Gold, rather than new bills from the Federal Reserve Printing Press there's a market flucuation making Gold less valuable.
Damn brilliant IMHO.
But the correlation stems from the overtime suddenly thrown onto Miners and Operating Enginerrs, along with unknown Federal Crews from the NSGS going from 40 hours (4 x 10s ) to 6 x 10s which is 2 large a week for my bros to take home.

Just another correlation for those not impressed by Pravdas WH leaked talking points.

If this is a subject of interest, google Winnemucca Gold, or Carlin Nevada Vein, just two of the many 24/7 operations pullling out record Gold deposits.

I always liked being lied to by women and the Government.
They always know where the Gold and Oil is while using others first.... 0oD 
Scam the high rollers, and take home the bread to PaPa... o-[][]-o 

Cheerz


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 17, 2013)

"Hidden Secrets": a dead giveaway that it's going to be something stupid.

Another one is "Dollar valueless, about to crash..."


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## chimuelo (Oct 17, 2013)

When OPEC decides the American Dollar can no longer be the currency used to purchase Oil, we'll know it is losing value.
Until then we can speculate, but never lose sight of the Golden Rule.
He who has the Gold, makes the Rules....

Jamie Farr
Cannonball Run II


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## Audun Jemtland (Oct 18, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Oct 17 said:


> "Hidden Secrets": a dead giveaway that it's going to be something stupid.
> 
> Another one is "Dollar valueless, about to crash..."


The titles doesn't justify the content. It reminds me of alternative medicine that use all sorts of phrasing. But there are alot of un-nutty things there. I'd say don't let our ego get in the way of being more informed. 

I would like to transfer the definition stupid and nut to the congress, FDA and all the other dishonest people. Not peaceful, honest and truth seeking folks.

The bad guys are always praised and the good guys are supressed and ignored. It should be the other way around.

TRUTH is always supressed and ridicouled.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 18, 2013)

And nonsense like this should be suppressed and ridiculed to the full extent of my ego.

There's nothing new in those links! If the dollar were valueless and about to crash, nobody would be practically paying us to park their money here. And goldbuggery is simply bonkers.


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## Audun Jemtland (Oct 19, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Oct 18 said:


> And nonsense like this should be suppressed and ridiculed to the full extent of my ego.
> 
> There's nothing new in those links! If the dollar were valueless and about to crash, nobody would be practically paying us to park their money here. And goldbuggery is simply bonkers.


No there's nothing new in particular, except other sources from workers that have experienced corruption, who have experience to share and speak from/of. But for most they even discard that as nonsense, even when it comes from the source itself.

For some unconcious people it can be something they've never heard before. And it can be very practical to know it because in the end, government is supressing the people without their consent, without them even knowing. Stripping them for their rights and breaking the law. The world is governed for the greater good of the people in power, not the common man.
Everyone will really feel the effects of this the day the "ceiling" isn't raised anymore. 
What we call money isnt money, it's a means of exchange, and it doesnt have the same value as it had before. It's only numbers so it can be easily manipulated, which gives the people at the grassroot little to nothing, and the people above the most.

I don't like this un-equality and the "every man for himself" mentality. It ruins the music industry and everything else. In the end, if the common man doesn't have the means to pay for your musical piece in that movie, tv-show, commercial, orchestra....who's gonna pay for it???
The current monetary system is strangling the common man.

My ego agrees with you 100%...But my logic and reason doesn't.


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## AC986 (Oct 19, 2013)

Audun the debt ceiling or the ceiling is not the problem. It's the debt that is the problem. In the end the debt has to start to reduce at some point in the future otherwise the currency will devalue at an alarming rate. Some devaluation can be useful in terms of selling goods to foreign countries. But eventually, should this continue on its present course, then inflation is bound to rise, the cost of debt and borrowing will rise.
The cost of debt and borrowing at a retail and commercial level is way too low around the world. It's an artificially jammed interest rate that has been brought about by panic and a failed system.
Should one day, the US $ cease to be the goto world currency, then I can't begin to imagine the world consequences.

I am not a financial wizard so I disavow any previous or present knowledge. Just an opinion based on history.


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## Audun Jemtland (Oct 19, 2013)

adriancook @ Sat Oct 19 said:


> Audun the debt ceiling or the ceiling is not the problem. It's the debt that is the problem. In the end the debt has to start to reduce at some point in the future otherwise the currency will devalue at an alarming rate. Some devaluation can be useful in terms of selling goods to foreign countries. But eventually, should this continue on its present course, then inflation is bound to rise, the cost of debt and borrowing will rise.
> The cost of debt and borrowing at a retail and commercial level is way too low around the world. It's an artificially jammed interest rate that has been brought about by panic and a failed system.
> Should one day, the US $ cease to be the goto world currency, then I can't begin to imagine the world consequences.
> 
> I am not a financial wizard so I disavow any previous or present knowledge. Just an opinion based on history.


No it's not THE problem itself, but it's one of the symptoms of the cause of it. It's just an indicator of a much bigger problem. But it's a very transparent indicator....There is no ceiling in and of itself. The illusion is just prosponded. even the dept is not the problem itself, it's the REASON why dept came into play in the first place that is the core problem.... The issue here is not "what" but "WHY". The currency HAS devalued at a fast rate, and its only accelerating....In order for it "not" to devalue, the dept has to get bigger...If they stop, it will shoot through the roof. Its a bubble waiting to burst.... There is no paying the debt, ever. It was based on currency not money to begin with...so it's either start over or let it grow indefinite. everyone is gonna be screwed either way and its inevitable in the way the current system is set up. We can aband the current system though but it's a tough transition either way. The transition is gonna come, be certain of it. And only then will our ego's burst completely...Because we're all gonna be affected. 

So, raise or lower ceiling?
Left or right?
Print more currency or less?
Pay the debt with or without taxing?

The answer is neither, none of the above. It's irrelevant. The constitution has been broken, people responsible for all this is not held responsible. Change has NOT come to America.


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## chimuelo (Oct 19, 2013)

This world was desgined on eating other species to stay alive.
God will make sure we run out of things to eat, or just take a Giant Shit on us and start over.

I have offerred my services to be a modern day Lott. It will be a hard chore breeding with dozens of young beautiful virgins, but hey if I am to save the species, I will give it my best.

Maybe in the next world we won't have to eat or take shits, no need for money.
Men will be forced to breed to re populate the world.
I'm down.


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## AC986 (Oct 19, 2013)

:lol: :lol: 

I love when she says the President of the free world whether you like it or not.

Snake Plissken moment. The President of what?


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## dpasdernick (Nov 1, 2013)

Does anybody talk about chicks anymore?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 1, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Sat Nov 02 said:


> Does anybody talk about chicks anymore?



It's worse than that. We can't even (with the rare exception) get any chicks who are nerdy enough to hang out in here.


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## chimuelo (Nov 2, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vexK5e_Qbd8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... exK5e_Qbd8)

Go and watch Transiberian Orchestra, and check out Anna Phoebe.
I see them at the Orleans Arena all the time.
Great music, helps me forget about the wealthy redistributors robbing the middle class to consolidate the poor vote.


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## dpasdernick (Nov 2, 2013)

chimuelo @ Sat Nov 02 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vexK5e_Qbd8
> 
> Go and watch Transiberian Orchestra, and check out Anna Phoebe.
> I see them at the Orleans Arena all the time.
> Great music, helps me forget about the wealthy redistributors robbing the middle class to consolidate the poor vote.



OK this may be the most shallowest comment ever typed here but at 1:20 in the video she's brought back beloved spandex pants from the 80's. Nom.... (Rumor has it she's pretty good at the violin too...)

Thanks Chimuelo... reminds a guy why he started a band in his parents basement many moons ago.


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## JohnG (Nov 2, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ 18th October 2013 said:


> And nonsense like this should be suppressed and ridiculed to the full extent of my ego.
> 
> There's nothing new in those links! If the dollar were valueless and about to crash, nobody would be practically paying us to park their money here. And goldbuggery is simply bonkers.



+1

Ludicrous.


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## Uorbit (Nov 3, 2013)

For the record, there has never been a fiat currency in history that doesn't crash. Simply a fact. It is just a matter of time that it will implode. We are dangerously close to that point now. If the Federal Reserve note can transition to an asset backed currency we will be OK. Here is a little background on the creation of fiat currency and how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 3, 2013)

Who cares if that argument was spiked deep into the ground and settled three generations ago.


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## Uorbit (Nov 3, 2013)

If our currency is so valuable then why are Brazil, Russia, India, China and South America joining forces to create a new global currency to replace the Federal Reserve Note?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS

The Fed is a foreign bank that has created a debt slavery situation on the USA and the world. There is a global movement happening right now to reduce the influence of the Fed's fiat money... and the international value of the dollar. 

The United States needs its own asset backed currency. It is unbelievable that as big and great as this country is, we do not have our own currency. Most of your tax dollars go to pay interest on our debt which, in turn, goes to the Federal Reserve. They are slowly extracting wealth from our country.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 3, 2013)

Groan.


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## JohnG (Nov 3, 2013)

I am not sure why I would respond to someone who makes so many factually inaccurate claims in one post, but I am curious where you are getting your information. Even a search of "US Budget Tea Party" doesn't return information that matches what you are asserting.

Just to take one point, how can you support the claim that "most of your tax dollars go to pay interest" when it's actually about 6-7% of Federal outlays? Even placed in comparison to individual income tax receipts that the Federal government collects, the dollar amount of net interest does not even approach "most" of those receipts.

Also, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, if you're a free market guy, your position that somehow the dollar and the US are worthless is belied by the value assigned to the US stock and debt markets by investors world-wide. These assets are owned by people and institutions that are 100% free to move their money elsewhere. 

So, by extension, are you saying that all these institutions, world-wide, have been fooled into buying something worthless?

This idea of a bunch of duped investors in turn, if true, would run counter to the idea that markets are good allocators of capital (I am assuming you believe in free markets -- if not, my mistake).

So anyway, I am just wondering where you're getting your information from.


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## chimuelo (Nov 3, 2013)

The Fed rules the global economy, it's that simple.
Long ago it was realized that using other nations resources was the plan, then when they realized Gold couldn't possibly be used as a standard, they consolidated even more power by having the military become an extension of monetary policy.

OPEC will not accept other currency to purchase their Oil, the reasons are simple, the US Dollar is the strongest currency.

To ensure the currency can withstand any inflationary troubles that might arise, we are re introducing Gold. These commercials use movie stars as you can't use politicians to sell a product unless it's a Federally backed reverse mortgage, then you need a movie star/politician like Fred Thompson.

I am not sure of the mechanism used to manipulate the markets but as more and more Governments demand to be paid in Gold, shutting down one of the many Federal Mines here in Nevada, such as Winnemucca or the Carlin Vein, could possibly be what causes the prices to dive 3-400 USD overnight.
I can also verify we are building the Pipeline, the Saudis have already voiced their concerns and even paid Al Gore to try and reignite his quest to control the Earths tempurature through taxes, and Matt Damon to star in a Saudi movie about fracking.

I just follow certain bi partisan policies, as they will reveal the true nature of politicians, like where they invest, exemptions from insider trading and health care, all laws that the commoners are jailed for as we are not exempted.
But money rules the world, always will.

To be nearer the truth one only needs to follow the Golden Rule.
He who has the Gold, makes the Rules.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 3, 2013)

> The Fed rules the global economy, it's that simple



Sadly, their power is severely limited under the present circumstances. If it weren't then we'd have full employment right now. They're doing everything they can, but they can't re-hire teachers and firemen or write people checks to do useful things like fixing bridges.

So we're wasting a lot of money by having all those millions of people sit around suffering - with decades-long consequences - instead of producing things.

And can you imagine how much worse it would be if our currency were backed by assets?!


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## chimuelo (Nov 5, 2013)

Well said, but the reason they are limited is because they have controlled a world wide collapse from the get go.
Our home equity values were redistributed to Shanghai, where they have the current real estate bubble. Estimations were around 5 trillion.
Then suddenly UK and EU banks recieved trillions through 2009-2011, the IMF is a global redistributor, but my guess is since people around the world are lied to by their governments, they can see how the IMF is basically a Shell Corporation propped up by the Federal Reserve and it's global banking consortium.

Reagan proved to the global community the best form of warfare is economic.
With the Federal Reserve and the Global Banking consortium in power I see nothing but prosperity, if not here at home, it's in China or Europe, if not there then Latin America or Japan, it seems as though things just work out where the attention is concentrated.

We will suffer here until the programs for growth are fully in place. It's our turn now that Europe and Asia are stabilizing.

I have all the faith in the world for the Federal Reserve and chairwoman Yellin.
I don't need to get upset listeing to the liars and wealthy redistributors as they fight over how much money they can put forth to their favoritue cause.
At the end of the day Private Insurance industry will end and be replaced by a single payer system which rolls up Medicare and all health coverage into a single tax, just like we saw with Medicare.
These funds are necessary for the way forward, it is obvious to me where we are headed, and I am quite satisfied.

But I am not misguided into the belief system placed in these 2 parties. They are the same breed that will grow their own agendas as far as thay are allowed to. Then big brother steps in and says you are going down, sorry but thanks for following orders, you will get a retirement package like no others can afford.

Just 3 examples of how Presidents and a Party will do as they told, regardless of what we think happened.

1st example........No new taxes by George Bush Sr.
The Gulf War costs were expensive and came back to bite him in the ass as the Fed told him, sorry bro, thanks but you are the new fall guy. No problem, what a great run he had at the CIA, VP and President. An excellent example of leadership.

Then we saw Bush Jr. and that Deer in the headlights face when he announced his "advisors" instructed him to pass TARP. I think not, that was the Federal Reserve and they wisely waited for a transitional period again to implement their strategy.

Most recent was the ACA passage, where nobody read the bill yet passed it.
Then the Supreme Court even went as far to make it the law of the land knowing it was the scam of the century. It serves a few right now which is good, but this was designed to fail, that is obvious to me.

So whether or not we believe these politicans have any real power is no longer an issue worth debate in my eyes.
They will simply do as they are told, and it has been this way since Europeans were reunited and the Wall came tumbling.

How quickly we forget the sacrifices others made for everyone to have a better life.
Back then Chinese were slaves, Europeans struggled to find a new idenity, and I really miss those days in the 80s where we truly were the place to be.
Things change, others take their turns, and even if China becomes the new global superpower, it's their turn, let it be.
Britian ruled the world for centuries than stepped back, then brought us Yes, Zeppelin, ELP the Beatles....
Who says you gotta be number 1 all of the time...?

Britian actually kicked our asses through music in the 60s, Mexicans have taken back California legally, things ain't so bad..

But Nick this will sadden you to think that the GOP will bring us the single payer system, and have Latinos head the Conservative Party.
The Federal Reserve will make the Liberals the fall guys this time.

So It Shall Be Written, So It Shall Be Done....


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## AC986 (Nov 5, 2013)

I was watching a news piece just now about the forthcoming Mayor of New York election. 

At least I assumed that's what it was about. :mrgreen:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 5, 2013)

> Well said, but the reason they are limited is because they have controlled a world wide collapse from the get go



It's true that Alan Greenspan is one of the villains in the crash for not seeing the bubble. But the reason they are limited is that they only control their balance sheet and interest rates to banks. Congress is in charge of fiscal spending.

However, there's a group of advocates with some very interesting ideas about how the Fed should help expand capital ownership - companies, equipment, land, whatever makes money - and I think they're onto something. "Own or be owned" is their slogan, and they're right to point out that human capital is going by the wayside, so we'll all be screwed if we depend on an ever-dwindling supply of jobs in the future.


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## JonFairhurst (Nov 5, 2013)

There are limits to the ownership model. Proponents of extreme libertarian ownership claim that there is a tragedy of the commons - that if no one person owns a resource, it will not be maintained (or fully exploited.)

The irony to me is that the more that individuals own around me, the fewer rights I have. Today, I can drive from Canada to Mexico without paying a single toll. And I contribute to maintenance by paying the gas tax. If every stretch of road were privately owned, only the wealthy would be able to travel.

The loss of rights goes well beyond that, however. You are all welcome to visit my home, but if I don't like what you say, how you worship, or that you are carrying a gun, I can tell you to leave. The Constritution only limits what the government can do. He who owns the property makes the rules.

In short, I only have rights on my own property - and in the commonwealth.


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## AC986 (Nov 5, 2013)

Don't beat yourself up too much. The Mayor of Toronto has just come to our attention.

I've never seen a Mayor of Toronto before today. This guy is a doozie. He says he smoked crack cocaine about a year ago while " in one of my drunken stupors"

That's fabulous. And this guy doesn't have a neck. Fantastic stuff from Canada right there.

o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 5, 2013)

Jon, this isn't extreme libertarian ownership, and it's not communism. Their idea is to expand employee stock ownership, etc., sort of like a super-IRA.

I think expanding ownership makes a lot of sense, because I don't like the idea of living in a country with gated communities and ghettos and nothing in between.


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## AC986 (Nov 5, 2013)

I thought USA was a gated community. Never been there though.


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## JonFairhurst (Nov 6, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Nov 05 said:


> Jon, this isn't extreme libertarian ownership, and it's not communism. Their idea is to expand employee stock ownership, etc., sort of like a super-IRA.



Got it! And, yes, I support this 100%. When the employees are the owners, workers care about the company and the company cares about their employees (owners).

When I worked at Grass Valley Group in the late 1980s & early 1990s, we had that feeling (though we didn't own the company.) Being somewhat isolated and the only large tech company in the area, we all knew that the company needed to kick butt if we wanted to keep living there. The management also lived in the small community, so there was good loyalty to employees as well.

Of course, that changed when Soros pulled a Bain Capital move on Tektronix (the real owner), and they strangled the cash out of the company. Both Tek and GV had telecom technologies, yet the jerk executives were too blood thirsty to even be able to grow these entities during the Internet boom. Despite this, these con artists were among the top compensated executives in the US at the time. Too bad for them that there are no stock options in hell.

Adequate employee ownership might have helped. But with big enough loans, a vampire capital firm can still gain enough control to destroy a company. At least they would have to share some of the booty with the soon-jobless employees.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2013)

I think it's a good part of the mix, the other part being...yes, redistribution.

There's no reason so many Walmart employees should be on food stamps while six of their heirs have more wealth than the bottom 33 million families in this country.


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## chimuelo (Nov 6, 2013)

Redistribution by the wealthy anti wealth folks never seems to work though.
The most recent failure being the Liberal campaign donors who recieved contracts to build a million dollar website that cost taxpayers 650+ million dollars.

Actually redistribution works great for them, it just never seems to reach the millions of starving Americans with outstretched arms like Mummies, in search of the nearest watering hole.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2013)

Suggestion, Chim: what if you were to spend the time you spend writing the same post over and over doing some reading about what's actually going on in the real world?

I'd hate to live in the one you live in, in which every human being is a greedy piece of garbage out to screw everyone else!


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## chimuelo (Nov 6, 2013)

It ain't so bad Chief. I bypassed Booking Agents years ago, except for the ones in DC.

But I live in the real world where truth matters and trust is not some entitlement to be taken advantage of.

Hell, you and me should combine our forces and just go back in time, about 9 trillion dollars ago, and just give every man women and child in the USA 100,000 USD.
I bet we could have created jobs much better than the wealthy anti wealth redistributors.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2013)

That would still work! I like the idea. Give everyone a bank card that has to be used on American-made products and that expires in three months - you have to spend it.


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## jleckie (Nov 6, 2013)

yes! i love your thinking.


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## chimuelo (Nov 7, 2013)

Too bad we don't have an honest Government, or we would have seen this.
FDR was even quoted as saying how veterans should have recieved lumps of cash instead of getting the GI Bill for education. Meaning the choice was up to who earned, not who ruled.
But the economy was booming from the partnership of the private sector and Federal Government, so that lesson was never learned.

I have so many things I want to buy for my wife and kids. And of course making sure I get the Military spec'd Hummer with armor.
Driving through the plantations to rehersals is a little risky these days.


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## AC986 (Nov 8, 2013)

Currency drop is now with the Euro. The ECB cut their base to 0.25% yesterday and that came a bit out of left field. They have a deflation problem apparently. Never did Japan any good though.
France got cut to AA today by S&P.

So all in all the Euro will get to its correct value eventually because its been far too high against a basket. But they're in trouble and you have to wonder how long they will go on with their experiment.
SELL!!!!!!!!

o=<


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