# 20th Century Classical Music..Help with harmonic options?



## DocMidi657 (Oct 1, 2016)

Hi,
I come from a jazz background so I find it easy to go from any chord to any other chord when composing in that genre. To my ear when a chord includes 7th, 9th's 11, 13 it just seems to work to really go anywhere as long as you voice it well and listen carefully to the melody.

Can some of you give some advice on composing in the 20th Century classical music idiom harmonically? 

I notice that often the harmonically 20th century classical music is not always extended like in jazz but often more triadic in nature however these composers seem extremely free in their root movement and chromaticism ... however when I compose with triads they tend to keep me locked a bit in a "diatonic framework" yielding more of a 19th and 18th century sound.

Any thoughts on who to listen to, books, videos, concepts when writing would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## ed buller (Oct 1, 2016)

Which era are you interested in ? any pieces you could point to would help as an awful lot happened in the twentith century. If you don't have them

*Materials and Techniques of Twentieth-Century Music (2nd Edition) 2nd Edition*
by Stefan Kostka

and 


*Twentieth-Century Harmony: Creative Aspects and Practice 4th Revised ed. Edition*
by Vincent Persichetti

very useful


e


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 1, 2016)

The Kostka is more like a traditional theory book. We used it in university for everything except 20th century music. The Persichetti is a great introduction into modern techniques but I find somewhat superficial. It does present a lot of exercises which could be helpful.

I'd recommend "Understanding Post-Tonal Music" if you want to understand more what people from Debussy and on did. It focuses on pitch set theory. It does spend quite a bit of time dealing with serialism which I would probably skip.

Another book which you might like is "A Geometry of Music." The idea is to map music onto geometric structures and then see how the music moves around. It aims to explain everything from early music to modern music and jazz. While it seems like a really interesting premise, I couldn't make it through the book. Too idiosyncratic and just spent too much time trying to explain when it could've simply shown more on diagrams. Learning the theory aspects in that book might help your writing as would learning pitch set theory. Nowadays I think very little in the more traditional diatonic way and think more about the relations presented in these books.

EDIT: Disregard what I said about the Kostka. I was thinking about his other book.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 1, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The Kostka is more like a traditional theory book. We used it in university for everything except 20th century music..



No it isnt' It's just about the 20th Century. You are thinking of his other book "Tonal Harmony" which is a textbook. 

e


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 1, 2016)

ed buller said:


> No it isnt' It's just about the 20th Century. You are thinking of his other book "Tonal Harmony" which is a textbook.
> 
> e


You're right. When I clicked on your link I only saw "Tonal Harmony" and hadn't bothered reading the title you posted. My bad.


----------



## JohnG (Oct 1, 2016)

It sort of depends on what your real aim is -- if you want to be the next Great Composer of Symphonic Works, that's one thing. If it's writing the score for Halo XVIII, that's another. What's your goal? Or just learning?


----------



## shnootre (Oct 1, 2016)

Yeah, w/ 20th/20th century music it really matters a whole lot what particular style you're thinking of. If you want pointilistic dissonance (a la Webern), you might enjoy checking out Joseph Straus's Introduction to Post 
Tonal Theory - which is as good an introduction to set class and 12-tone theory as I'm aware of. If it's neoclassical (Stravinsky) or Impressionism (Debussy) you're looking for, many traditional harmony textbooks have a final unit on 20th century practices and beyond. Because the techniques used in the 20th c. (and beyond) are so diverse (as compared to the 19th c.), I think it's much more important to find the musical language you want to emulate (as mentioned by several above). I also think that the best textbook for this stuff hasn't really been written. If you can get to a good music library and flip through the pages of some of the above-mentioned books and see if they speak to you and make sense, great. Better still, find the music you love, get a hold of the scores, and see what kind of sense you can make of it on your own. [and then maybe afterwards consult the theory texts and see what they say]


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 1, 2016)

JohnG said:


> It sort of depends on what your real aim is -- if you want to be the next Great Composer of Symphonic Works, that's one thing. If it's writing the score for Halo XVIII, that's another. What's your goal? Or just learning?


Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for the help so far everyone and John in regards to your question my goal is to write orchestral music that does not sound jazzy due to my background but also not so diatonic when I lay off the 7th,9th, 13th chords etc. Orchestral music with twists and turns harmonically and melodically but not atonal by any stretch.


----------



## JohnG (Oct 1, 2016)

Well in that case I think you're struggling with the same thing we all face, and a topic that composers with illustrious names have really struggled with since 1827!

You have the 19th century with Wagner and Strauss (Richard) taking tonality to its / past its? logical extremes. There's Prokofiev, who used a surprisingly slippery harmonic language that is tonal; innovative but the overall effect is usually pretty close to the "standard" harmonic approach.

And at the start of the 20th every composer in Europe and the US, from Schoenberg to Berg to Ives to whatever were trying to figure out how to escape the shadow of Beethoven and Wagner et al. tonality-as-it's-been-done. Like twin bogey-men looming over the quest for originality.

And then, Stravinsky, in three ballets, pretty much crushed (as in "ran through exhaustively") a huge range of the genuinely _musical_ use of bi-tonality and other techniques that might have offered some more room after Beethoven and the 19th c. But he did it so well that frankly I think he used up all the oxygen in that room and several others.

There's serialism, of course, which in most hands except Alban Berg's sounds like rubbishy nonsense to me. There's Hindemith; there's Hanson and pitch sets, which someone mentioned; there's the "melody based on the timetable of the London Underground" approach, which is as rubbishy as pure serialism.

I like Lutoslawski, some Messiaen, Duruflé's "Requiem" (amazing), and Varese and Penderecki and that but what I like about them is not so much about harmony as such.

sorry to rant -- Alban Berg is pretty cool, I think. And with your jazz background you may be able to understand him better than most people, but beware that a lot of it in Berg's mind is serialism. But really good serialism. Favourite is Wozzeck

[edit: and Bartok -- The Miraculous Mandarin_ fantastic!_]

PS -- I like the Kostka title that ed buller recommended @ed buller


----------



## ed buller (Oct 1, 2016)

JohnG said:


> There's serialism, of course, which in most hands except Alban Berg's sounds like rubbishy nonsense to me.
> [/USER]



exactly...his trick was a tonal row!

e


----------



## ed buller (Oct 1, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Thanks so much for the help so far everyone and John in regards to your question my goal is to write orchestral music that does not sound jazzy due to my background but also not so diatonic when I lay off the 7th,9th, 13th chords etc. Orchestral music with twists and turns harmonically and melodically but not atonal by any stretch.



Try Vaughn Williams. Check out the Antarctica ( 8th sym I think ) also Prokofiev's Ballets . Cinderella especially . William Walton's 2nd Symphony has a lot of John Williamsesque dark harmony. Study pitch set's The wonderful Miraculous Mandarins "Finally Succeeding" is a study in pitch set use. 

Stravisnkys Ballets will keep you busy for a lifetime . From the rimskyesque "Firebird" ( built on his ladder of thirds, but with a new twist ) to the truly groundbreaking "Rite" ( which owes a lot to his revolutionary extension of Rimsky's Octatonicism ) ....Look to the east young man !!

e


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 1, 2016)

Thanks so much everyone. Great advice and really appreciate all of it. Here's a class by Dave Frank on Charles Ives that helped my jazz head grasp his compositional approach better.


----------



## Dave Connor (Oct 1, 2016)

20th Century composers are all quite unique. Many may fall under a similar heading such as Impressionistic or Neo Classical but you will find each one very different. Prokofiev and Shostakovich are as different from each other as Debussy and Ravel. Understanding their mode of thinking is perhaps most important because they all shared a similar goal as to what NOT to sound like, which for the most part was the Western system codified from Haydn to Brahms and beyond. At least not to adhere to it as strictly as the Classicists did.

The point is that in studying 20 century composers works, you will see how each one steered in and around and on top of the older system for their own personal expressive purposes. Or, how they abandoned it totally or how they used certain aspects of it and shied away from others. Alban Berg is not going to run a V-I cadence by you five times in a row like Beethoven but he will give you a tune as Romantic or more than Schubert or Mahler. In effect, picking up where they left off. Stravinsky certainly gave us an updated version of his favorite composer Mozart on numerous occasions. So, if there is a composer who's work you identify with, look under the hood and see how he's doing it.

Implied in what I am saying here is that understanding the old can be very helpful in doing something new. The rare composer that seems to spring from himself as in Debussy or Ives are notable exceptions.


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 3, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> 20th Century composers are all quite unique. Many may fall under a similar heading such as Impressionistic or Neo Classical but you will find each one very different. Prokofiev and Shostakovich are as different from each other as Debussy and Ravel. Understanding their mode of thinking is perhaps most important because they all shared a similar goal as to what NOT to sound like, which for the most part was the Western system codified from Haydn to Brahms and beyond. At least not to adhere to it as strictly as the Classicists did.
> 
> The point is that in studying 20 century composers works, you will see how each one steered in and around and on top of the older system for their own personal expressive purposes. Or, how they abandoned it totally or how they used certain aspects of it and shied away from others. Alban Berg is not going to run a V-I cadence by you five times in a row like Beethoven but he will give you a tune as Romantic or more than Schubert or Mahler. In effect, picking up where they left off. Stravinsky certainly gave us an updated version of his favorite composer Mozart on numerous occasions. So, if there is a composer who's work you identify with, look under the hood and see how he's doing it.
> 
> Implied in what I am saying here is that understanding the old can be very helpful in doing something new. The rare composer that seems to spring from himself as in Debussy or Ives are notable exceptions.


Thanks so much Dave, that helped a lot! I really liked when you said "they knew what they did not want to sound like"


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 3, 2016)

Hi Guys,

Thanks again for your help with this. So I began checkin out the William Walton's recommendation from Ed and started transcribing the first few bars and figured out the he was using the Augmented Scale which was very helpful to compose in that sound. But here's where I am stuck with more modern orchestral music... How is one composing or thinking say this opening by Walton when at listening I can't really detect a consistent pulse or meter? I like it, I just want to conceptualize this for lack of better word "floating" meter/time aspect that occurs in modern orchestral music where phrases are just flying in all over the place? or is there a meter/time signature and I am just not getting it?

Are they any scores that come to mind on ISMLP that illustrate this type of musical gesture so I can study how composers notate this? here's the link to walton score for the opening bars to show what I mean:


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

Lovely piece. The tonality is from pitch sets. The pulse is regular . The two chords that make up the repetitive figure in the celeste and strings are from the first set.





The melodies over the top add a second set. These are developed throughout the piece .


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 3, 2016)

Ed that is so helpful. Did you just transcribe that???? That quickly????


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

No...I have the score.

e


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 3, 2016)

Thanks Ed, I was about to pass out if you did transcribe that opening that fast  I Really appreciate your help so much and love the Walton piece, that is exactly what I am looking to learn from.

If you know of a good link to describe "pitch sets" please let me know. I really want to take me composition chops up a few notches. Because of my jazz background the first thing that comes to my mind regarding pitch sets is when I was learning how to blow over Giant Steps. Coltrane used that 1235 device a lot on the changes but I am assuming pitch sets is a lot deeper conceptually than that.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

play from 7;10. where the snares come in with the fast 2 beat. The first phrase is is a pitch set . It gets repeated at a different pitch again and again. Pretty much all the pitches in this section come from the pitch set.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

a pitch set is basically a small scale . But expressed as intervals. So let's start at Middle c. The set 0 1 3 ( fav of john williams ) would be C,C#,D#.....We can also invert it . C,B,A. Now we can use that as a basis for something. We can add another set to play against this one or ( as in the walton piece ) use it to add notes to another figure. Walton was a master at it's use. So was Jerry Goldsmith. So much of his action music uses pitch set's. It's just a small cell from which to use as a reservoir of pitches. But the numbers are just intervals NOT absolutes . So...G,G# and A# is also 0 1 3. If you have an IPHONE there's an app !...https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/post-tonal-theory-calculator/id791334943?mt=8

e


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

see if you can spot them:


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 3, 2016)

This is a great help Ed! Ok so I get they are absolutes and the can be inverted and not like 1 b3 5 for say a minor triad. If I understand correctly 1 b3 5 in a pitch set would be be expressed then 0 3 7? 
So is there a certain total number of notes typically contained in a pitch set?


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

no you can have as many as you want. But remember the idea is that they are noticed. So brevity helps. The one thing I have learnt is all the composers I admire tend to blend their disciplines. Debussy is a good example. There are pieces where he will stick to one thing....but there the exceptions. So if you study John Williams scores you will see he uses pitch set's for particular things. Perhaps only in the strings ( a fav for ostinatos and tension beds ). I find five pitches is the limit....but that's just me.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

over at the JW fan forum there's some very bright people who can help. A couple of them taught me a lot actually. "Ludwig" and "Sharkus Malarkus" especially. Here's a thread discussing JW's use of chords. Gives you an insight into how deep you can go......

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25352-johnnys-mystery-chords/


best


e


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 3, 2016)

Thanks Ed..can I ask you one last question for the night..are pitch sets used only single note melodically or can say three of the notes of a pitch set be used as a chord. I was looking and listening to the Bartok piece at 7:10 and saw chords in the score and was wondering if they were comprised of pitch sets as well?


----------



## ed buller (Oct 3, 2016)

oh yes you can use them vertically too. As in the Walton piece

e


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> Thanks Ed..can I ask you one last question for the night..are pitch sets used only single note melodically or can say three of the notes of a pitch set be used as a chord. I was looking and listening to the Bartok piece at 7:10 and saw chords in the score and was wondering if they were comprised of pitch sets as well?



Pitch class set theory is a means of explaining music, not an integral part of it. It's highly unlikely Bartók thought of those chords as "pitch class sets".


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

ed buller said:


> a pitch set is basically a small scale . But expressed as intervals. So let's start at Middle c. The set 0 1 3 ( fav of john williams ) would be C,C#,D#.....We can also invert it . C,B,A. Now we can use that as a basis for something. We can add another set to play against this one or ( as in the walton piece ) use it to add notes to another figure. Walton was a master at it's use. So was Jerry Goldsmith. So much of his action music uses pitch set's. It's just a small cell from which to use as a reservoir of pitches. But the numbers are just intervals NOT absolutes . So...G,G# and A# is also 0 1 3. If you have an IPHONE there's an app !...https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/post-tonal-theory-calculator/id791334943?mt=8
> 
> e



Make sure you use brackets to indicate a pitch class set, e.g. [0,1,2]. Or, try using Forte numbers: http://www.stephenandrewtaylor.net/setfinder/setlist.html.


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> This is a great help Ed! Ok so I get they are absolutes and the can be inverted and not like 1 b3 5 for say a minor triad. If I understand correctly 1 b3 5 in a pitch set would be be expressed then 0 3 7?
> So is there a certain total number of notes typically contained in a pitch set?



Yes - 12, or all notes of the chromatic scale.


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> This is a great help Ed! Ok so I get they are absolutes and the can be inverted and not like 1 b3 5 for say a minor triad. If I understand correctly 1 b3 5 in a pitch set would be be expressed then 0 3 7?
> So is there a certain total number of notes typically contained in a pitch set?



In prime form, an [0,3,7] set can also be a major chord (its inversion), because an inversion of a set is considered equal to the set itself (since both belong to the same set class).


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 4, 2016)

Mithrandir said:


> In prime form, an [0,3,7] set can also be a major chord (its inversion), because an inversion of a set is considered equal to the set itself (since both belong to the same set class).


Thanks so much for help with this Mithrandir. Can you tell me this regarding pitch sets... why are we using these numbers based on 0-12 in alignment with the chromatic scales versus just what jazzers use? For example I could express the pitch set for C E F# as 0,5,7 but I could also express it 1 3 #4. What am I missing there?


----------



## ed buller (Oct 4, 2016)

Mithrandir said:


> Pitch class set theory is a means of explaining music, not an integral part of it. It's highly unlikely Bartók thought of those chords as "pitch class sets".



no he called them Cells

e


----------



## ed buller (Oct 4, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> Thanks so much for help with this Mithrandir. Can you tell me this regarding pitch sets... why are we using these numbers based on 0-12 in alignment with the chromatic scales versus just what jazzers use? For example I could express the pitch set for C E F# as 0,5,7 but I could also express it 1 3 #4. What am missing there?



it's chromatic. so start from 0. c=0. e=4. f#=6. There is also prime form. This is where the gaps are at there smallest .

this is a good site:

http://www.jaytomlin.com/music/settheory/help.html

But Mithrandir is quite correct . As always this is a theory after the fact. ( although there are composers who use pitch set theory to compose ). It is best used as a trick to generate ideas and as a framework to manipulate them. As always break the rules if it sounds better !

e


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> Thanks so much for help with this Mithrandir. Can you tell me this regarding pitch sets... why are we using these numbers based on 0-12 in alignment with the chromatic scales versus just what jazzers use? For example I could express the pitch set for C E F# as 0,5,7 but I could also express it 1 3 #4. What am I missing there?



Sure, there are other ways of analyzing music. One of the reasons Allen Forte introduced the concept of using integers to represent pitch classes is that you can apply various (simple) mathematical operations to sets containing them. Your notation is relative, within a given key. Forte's notation is absolute (given C = 0). Also, your notation won't always give the simplest way of representing a set - the major/minor set is a great example.


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

ed buller said:


> But Mithrandir is quite correct . As always this is a theory after the fact. ( although there are composers who use pitch set theory to compose ). It is best used as a trick to generate ideas and as a framework to manipulate them. As always break the rules if it sounds better !



Very true, although even composers like Williams often use it in a very intuitive way.


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

By the way, jazz harmony is actually often used in twentieth century classical music. Try listening to Dutilleux's _Métaboles_, for example. The _Obsessionel _movement is very evocative in that regard.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 4, 2016)

another concept you should embrace is Hexatonic collections. These are very useful when writing music as it again offers a chance to have some sort of order away from conventional functional harmony .

The easiest way to remember these is through Augmented chords, of which there are just 4. These Aug Chords also act as "gateways" between the collections. 

CEG# C#FA DF#A# D#GB.......If we take the first CEG#...and build a Maj and Min Triad on each of the notes (as roots) we get six chords. CM,Cm,EM,Em,G#M,G#m. this gives us Six tones too C,D#,E,G, G#,B


the trick is navigating between these chords via a single half step....as in:







This is a technique used throughout 20th century music. The key is the voice leading. So much can be achieved through good voice leading. Even the most egregious harmonic movements can be smoothed over by the careful placement of the composite tones. This also true in the orchestration of these sonorities . 



a case study.

E


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

Good call!


----------



## ed buller (Oct 4, 2016)

Good books for this

*A Geometry of Music: Harmony and Counterpoint in the Extended Common Practice (Oxford Studies in Music Theory) Hardcover – March 21, 2011*
by Dmitri Tymoczko (Author)



Also Highly recommended:

*Music and Twentieth-Century Tonality: Harmonic Progression Based on Modality and the Interval Cycles (Routledge Studies in Music Theory) 1st Edition*
by Paolo Susanni Elliott Antokoletz (Author)

e


----------



## Mithrandir (Oct 4, 2016)

Obviously, try Wikipedia too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexatonic_scale


----------



## ed buller (Oct 4, 2016)

This is from that thread I copied form the JW site;

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25352-johnnys-mystery-chords/

"There's another really characteristic creepy JW chord (or rather pitch set) in that cue. At 0:57 we have Ab3, C#4, A4, C5 and D5. It's got an open chromatic cluster (C#4, C5, D5) plus a (0145) tetrachord. So the the component sets are (012), (015), (016), (0145) and (0156), with the overall superset being (01256) or Forte set-class 5-6. 5-6 is a common occurrence with WIlliams, because it naturally occurs in his much used double harmonic minor scale. i.e. in C minor (F#-G-Ab-B-C).

Anton Webern was a fan of it too.



While that 5-6 is being sustained, tremolo first violins play a series of 16th notes outlining three of the subsets - (014), (0156) and (0145). So, C5, C#4, C4, A3, to Bb4, A4, Eb4, D4, and in the next bar after an 8th rest: Db5, C5, to Eb4, D4, F#4 to G3.

Johnny is one clever geezer."


This is from a post by "SHARKUS MALARKUS". I suspect NOT his real name. It gives you a clue into how detailed JW application of his Pitch Set use is . He really is a master and this is how he can write such complex sonorities and still make it all seem to make sense !

this is the cue they are discussing.




E


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 5, 2016)

ed buller said:


> it's chromatic. so start from 0. c=0. e=4. f#=6. There is also prime form. This is where the gaps are at there smallest .
> 
> this is a good site:
> 
> ...


Thanks ED!


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 5, 2016)

ed buller said:


> it's chromatic. so start from 0. c=0. e=4. f#=6. There is also prime form. This is where the gaps are at there smallest .
> 
> this is a good site:
> 
> ...


Thanks ED!


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 5, 2016)

Guys in this thread... thank you all this is excellent information. Can't thank you enough!!


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 5, 2016)

ed buller said:


> Good books for this
> 
> *A Geometry of Music: Harmony and Counterpoint in the Extended Common Practice (Oxford Studies in Music Theory) Hardcover – March 21, 2011*
> by Dmitri Tymoczko (Author)
> ...


Thanks Ed!


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Oct 6, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> Hi,
> I come from a jazz background so I find it easy to go from any chord to any other chord when composing in that genre. To my ear when a chord includes 7th, 9th's 11, 13 it just seems to work to really go anywhere as long as you voice it well and listen carefully to the melody.
> 
> Can some of you give some advice on composing in the 20th Century classical music idiom harmonically?
> ...



Yes, listen to Samuel Barber's piano concerto, Maurice Ravel's string quartet in F-major and symphonies by Carl Nielsen, particularly the 4th and 5th. Shostokovich's 10th symphony is really fine also.

What you wrote about voice-leading applies in classical music as well. One can move from any chord to any chord if the voice-leading of each melodic line is handled skillfully. A good reference text is Stefan Kostka's Materials & Techniques of 20th Century Music, much information on non-triadic harmony, set theory, 12-tone theory, expanded scalular resources and more.

Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com


----------



## DocMidi657 (Oct 6, 2016)

Thanks Jerry!


----------



## Sebastianmu (Oct 6, 2016)

Is Wiliams really _thinking _in sets? Is there any evidence?


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 6, 2016)

Awesome, we are talking set-theory which I both love and use all the time. Here is one of my pieces entitled Sins of the Old Testament divided into 3 movements: King Saul and the Witch, David and Bathsheba, and Dance of the Golden Calf. Each movement is based on a different set and scored for violin, clarinet, bassoon, tuba, congas, and cowbell.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 6, 2016)

Sebastianmu said:


> Is Wiliams really _thinking _in sets? Is there any evidence?



well...i'm trying to find out.....but i'd imagine so. Both he and Jerry Goldsmith where taught by Ernst Krenek ( i think ) for a while in the 50's. Set Theory was very fashionable . I really can't imagine Score's like "The Poseidon Adventure" and "The Towering Inferno" being written without it being used to be honest. 

e


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 7, 2016)

ed buller said:


> well...i'm trying to find out.....but i'd imagine so. Both he and Jerry Goldsmith where taught by Ernst Krenek ( i think ) for a while in the 50's. Set Theory was very fashionable . I really can't imagine Score's like "The Poseidon Adventure" and "The Towering Inferno" being written without it being used to be honest.
> 
> e


I am about 92% sure I heard in an interview that I seen on YouTube that Williams said he did use 12-tone technique to create a spooky mysterious vibe in some of his movies.


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 7, 2016)

I hope it is ok for me to share this, but Dave asked me about how I used set-theory to write my piece "The Sins of the Old Testament" and how I harmonized it as well. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing the information here:


How to Compose Using Set-theory (For this example Dave picked C, C#, G for his set.)


Write out the chromatic notes and their number values: C0 C#1 D2 Eb3 E4 F5 F#6 G7 Ab8 A9 Bb10 B11


Pick your notes to become your set: C0 C#1 G7 (Hint: 5 notes normally work really well instead of 4 or less.)


Starting from lowest to highest, write your “original set” down (C0 C#1 G7) as “O1” then find all of the 11 transpositions of the original set creating your different “pitch classes:”

O1: 0, 1, 7 (C, C#, G)

O2: 1, 2, 8 (C#, D, Ab)

O3: 2, 3, 9

O3: 3, 4, 10

O4: 4, 5, 11

O5: 5, 6, 0

O6: 6, 7, 1

O7: 7, 8, 2

O8: 8, 9, 3

O9: 9, 10, 4

O10: 10, 11, 5

O11: 11, 0, 6


Find the inversions (I) of the pitch classes by first writing the original number, then subtracting the other numbers by 12. Then simply transpose like you did in step 3.

I1: C0, B11 (for example 12-1=11), F5 (for example 12-7=5)

I2: 1, 0, 6 (C#, C, F#)

I3: 2, 1, 7

I4: 3, 2, 8

I5: 4, 3, 9

I6: 5, 4, 10

I7: 6, 5, 11

I8: 7, 6, 0

I9: 8, 7, 1

I10: 9, 8, 2

I11: 10, 9, 3


To take it a couple of steps further you could then find the retrogrades (R) of both your pitch classes and retrograde inversions (RI) by simply spelling them backwards.

For example: RO1: G7, C#1, C0 or RI1: F5, B11, C0


Set-theory Hints

Pick a set around 5 different notes that can be composed into a cool motive. Be creative especially rhythmically.


You do not have to use all of your pitch classes, inversions, retrogrades, or retrograde inversions. Simply pick around 2 or 3 in each category.


To harmonize your set-theory melodic lines pretend that each new pitch class or inversion that you are using at the time is its own new scale and harmonize your melodic lines by staying “diatonically” or within the pitch class that your melodic line is using.


Have fun, don’t stress. Play around with little melodic figures, and then see if you can make them flow seamlessly to other pitch classes, inversions, etc.


----------



## dtcomposer (Oct 7, 2016)

A modern composer who really uses pitch sets to great effect in some of his music is Thomas Ades. I studied some of his music a few years ago and was really impressed with the structures he was able to create by a process that was at least definable using set theory. His Violin Concerto first and second movements in particular are interesting examples of his use of tonal combinations in non-traditional ways. There is some strident dissonance in the first movement though. 



The second movement has some really beautiful, and more consonant treatment of similar ideas. Especially in the ending section around 6:40 or so. 



Also worth listening to for similar ideas with larger orchestration is his piece "Tevot"


----------



## Parsifal666 (Oct 7, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Awesome, we are talking set-theory which I both love and use all the time. Here is one of my pieces entitled Sins of the Old Testament divided into 3 movements: King Saul and the Witch, David and Bathsheba, and Dance of the Golden Calf. Each movement is based on a different set and scored for violin, clarinet, bassoon, tuba, congas, and cowbell.




Hey, cool!


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 7, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> Hey, cool!


Thank ya! It was actually fun to write.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Oct 7, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I hope it is ok for me to share this, but Dave asked me about how I used set-theory to write my piece "The Sins of the Old Testament" and how I harmonized it as well. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing the information here:
> 
> 
> How to Compose Using Set-theory (For this example Dave picked C, C#, G for his set.)
> ...



Do you have a recording of a piece that uses what you describe above? Please direct me to it if so. I remember writing only one piece, a short piano piece, using set-theory. Didn't use it again although I did write 5-10 works using 12-tone matrices. I always found myself however having to make up new rules, because often what was working for me in terms of chromatic melodic ideas and counterpoint didn't necessarily create harmonies that pleased my ear. I actually created a document defining how I approach the serialization of pitch, it is very liberal in terms of allowing me to achieve the resonance and beauty in the harmonic structures while still maintaining the integrity of the order of the pitches. If you're interested I can post it, it's a Word document (can I post a Word document in a forum?).

Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 7, 2016)

jsg said:


> Do you have a recording of a piece that uses what you describe above? Please direct me to it if so. I remember writing only one piece, a short piano piece, using set-theory. Didn't use it again although I did write 5-10 works using 12-tone matrices. I always found myself however having to make up new rules, because often what was working for me in terms of chromatic melodic ideas and counterpoint didn't necessarily create harmonies that pleased my ear. I actually created a document defining how I approach the serialization of pitch, it is very liberal in terms of allowing me to achieve the resonance and beauty in the harmonic structures while still maintaining the integrity of the order of the pitches. If you're interested I can post it, it's a Word document (can I post a Word document in a forum?).
> 
> Jerry
> www.jerrygerber.com


Here you go, this one is called Sins of the Old Testament divided into 3 movements: King Saul and the Witch, David and Bathsheba, and Dance of the Golden Calf. Each movement is based on a different set and scored for violin, clarinet, bassoon, tuba, congas, and cowbell. I'm not sure if you can post a word file, but maybe someone else knows.


----------



## Assa (Oct 7, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I hope it is ok for me to share this, but Dave asked me about how I used set-theory to write my piece "The Sins of the Old Testament" and how I harmonized it as well. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing the information here:
> 
> 
> How to Compose Using Set-theory (For this example Dave picked C, C#, G for his set.)
> ...



Very interesting, thanks for explaining this!  Lovely thread!


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 7, 2016)

Assa said:


> Very interesting, thanks for explaining this!  Lovely thread!


My absolute pleasure. It brought back a lot of great memories about my composition teacher from back in the day.


----------



## Assa (Oct 7, 2016)

So what do you guys think about something like this? How would you analyze that, is this also composed by using set theory?


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Oct 7, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Here you go, this one is called Sins of the Old Testament divided into 3 movements: King Saul and the Witch, David and Bathsheba, and Dance of the Golden Calf. Each movement is based on a different set and scored for violin, clarinet, bassoon, tuba, congas, and cowbell. I'm not sure if you can post a word file, but maybe someone else knows.




Thanks for posting. That's a really nice, really interesting piece. I enjoyed it.

Best,
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com


----------



## Anders Wall (Oct 7, 2016)

jsg said:


> I always found myself however having to make up new rules, because often what was working for me in terms of chromatic melodic ideas and counterpoint didn't necessarily create harmonies that pleased my ear. I actually created a document defining how I approach the serialization of pitch, it is very liberal in terms of allowing me to achieve the resonance and beauty in the harmonic structures while still maintaining the integrity of the order of the pitches. If you're interested I can post it, it's a Word document (can I post a Word document in a forum?).
> 
> Jerry
> www.jerrygerber.com


I remember working with numbers and code (morse code to get the rythm...!?!) as a exercise in school.
Here's the "alphabet" I came up with 4/4 = the note names as they are called. 6/4 = chromatic and 3/4 wholetone.






My name would be the following pitches.
A, D, D, E, F#, G C#, A, C, C
And yours (Jerry Gerber) would be.
Bb, E, F#, F#, F G, E, F#, Bb, E, F#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_cryptogram

But yes you kind of have to stick to the rules no matter how bad it sounds.
And that's the beauty, and also the problem, when numbers create the content.

As for uploading files. I'm not sure word-documents are possible to upload.
But if you convert/save it to pdf or as a txt file then it's possible.
Use the "Upload a File" button.






Would love to read your document.
If uploading here fails perhaps you could post a link to it?

Best,
Anders


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Oct 7, 2016)

And that the beauty said:


> I think there are, generally speaking, two types of beauty, sensual and intellectual. The beauty of ideational complexity, musical logic and innovative organizational principles is never going be as popular as sensual beauty. Sensual beauty is about the sound, and the sound alone. One note played in the right way can produce enormous sensual beauty. I strive for balance, but with a little more emphasis on sensual beauty over intellectual beauty. Beethoven remarked the music is the bridge between the intellectual and the sensual; as far as music goes, if it doesn't sound good, it isn't good. It has to sound.
> 
> Jerry
> www.jerrygerber.com


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 8, 2016)

jsg said:


> Thanks for posting. That's a really nice, really interesting piece. I enjoyed it.
> 
> Best,
> Jerry
> www.jerrygerber.com


Thank ya Jerry. I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed it.


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 10, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> Hi,
> I come from a jazz background so I find it easy to go from any chord to any other chord when composing in that genre. To my ear when a chord includes 7th, 9th's 11, 13 it just seems to work to really go anywhere as long as you voice it well and listen carefully to the melody.
> 
> Can some of you give some advice on composing in the 20th Century classical music idiom harmonically?
> ...


Also, my friend, here's another 20th century classical technique I like to call a "Modulation Composition" in which every chord works as a pivot chord to the next measure, so basically every measure changes keys creating forward momentum. Is this the greatest music? Possibly not, but it reminds me of what I like to call "compositional sound design" in which you can discover new colors even beyond your usual compositional pallet. This piece/ 2 part invention is called Organized Chaos for harpsichord and performed live.


----------



## jonathanparham (Jul 4, 2017)

ed buller said:


> No it isnt' It's just about the 20th Century. You are thinking of his other book "Tonal Harmony" which is a textbook.


had this in school lol


----------



## FriFlo (Jul 5, 2017)

Assa said:


> So what do you guys think about something like this? How would you analyze that, is this also composed by using set theory?



That track is certainly worth giving some thorough analysis, but it is not available as a score, as far as I know. Some things are really tough to transcribe in detail. There are a lot of octatonic scales. Actually, the trombones in the beginning form a rising octatonic scale on C#. The following Ostinate figure is mostly polychords based on parallel moving 5th ... but this is really tough to hear in detail, so, I would need quite a lot of time and some testing with samples to be half sure what exactly is what here. Maybe someone is bold enough to step in here!


----------

