# More adventure stories..(case study..)



## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 19, 2017)

Hi Folks,

It is me....on my journey to learn more from the great composers and write some stuff.. I listened a couple of times stuff from T. Bergersen, Williams, also Silvestri on a regular base and and make at least a bit my own thing out of it. It is just another exercise to get some devices and structural things from them.
I used here spitfire orchestra mainly this time more close micings, Tree and outriggers, and ambient very low in the mix just for the tail and a little bit of ambience.

if someone is interested I can share the 2 handed piano sketch and midi project!!! we are all learners and need to help each other..!!

It sounds not epic bold and large..no..but it has a lot of details so that you can hear every shit in my rendering which went right or probably more wrong!! :D

However, Hope you have a good listen.




uncrompessed version:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ao9fdqfhhffdmb3/Alexander_Schiborr_More_Adventure_Stories_intro__v14_drier.mp3?dl=0


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## Iskra (Oct 19, 2017)

Love it!
Really nailing the style in a respectful and imaginative way.
My only constructive comment would be to decrease the amount of far away mics on the lowest stuff in favor of close/tree mics (bassess/celli and tuba/bass trombone?) as they could be a bit more focused and give the piece a more solid foundation down there (not talking about volume, volume is fine in all sections, higher or lower)... 
Might be soundcloud, or more likely, my ears.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 19, 2017)

Iskra said:


> Love it!
> Really nailing the style in a respectful and imaginative way.
> My only constructive comment would be to decrease the amount of far away mics on the lowest stuff in favor of close/tree mics (bassess/celli and tuba/bass trombone?) as they could be a bit more focused and give the piece a more solid foundation down there (not talking about volume, volume is fine in all sections, higher or lower)...
> Might be soundcloud, or more likely, my ears.




I uploaded to the DB a more uncompressed version. (edited in the post)

Thank you..for listening


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 20, 2017)

I have added the stems of the section, so for anyone who is more interested about the orchestration: 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bllr73njcg1l2eg/AAC0Jzn6YrlVTRCklWkG4cTta?dl=0


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## Hanu_H (Oct 20, 2017)

Everything sounds good and realistic, but I think you miss the main thing in this kind of cues. The melody. I've listened it twice now but I am still not humming the melody. That's one thing that makes Williams special is the easy and memorable melodies that stuck in your head instantly. And I know that is the hardest part of it.  But really nice work in the sound and the realism. If I would hear it in a movie would definitely think it would be a real orchestra. When exposed like this, I can hear little things that give it away, but it's always like that when working with samples. Keep up the good work, I am really liking your compositions these days. 

-Hannes


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 20, 2017)

Hanu_H said:


> Everything sounds good and realistic, but I think you miss the main thing in this kind of cues. The melody. I've listened it twice now but I am still not humming the melody. That's one thing that makes Williams special is the easy and memorable melodies that stuck in your head instantly. And I know that is the hardest part of it.  But really nice work in the sound and the realism. If I would hear it in a movie would definitely think it would be a real orchestra. When exposed like this, I can hear little things that give it away, but it's always like that when working with samples. Keep up the good work, I am really liking your compositions these days.
> 
> -Hannes



Hej Hannes,

Thanks for the feedback on my track and the suggestions. I thought it was a catchy theme, but it is good to know how different we perceive things. My theme is definitely not up to the catchyness of a John Parr Tune..haha. And yes: Writing such themes on a level of John Williams is quite hard. Therefore I am there to practise that stuff a lot. 
Regarding the production feedback I tried this time not to overpower the lowend and keep everything a little bit more grounded, and drier. I think it helps to get clarity in the production.


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## Hanu_H (Oct 20, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hej Hannes,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback on my track and the suggestions. I thought it was a catchy theme, but it is good to know how different we perceive things. My theme is definitely not up to the catchyness of a John Parr Tune..haha. And yes: Writing such themes on a level of John Williams is quite hard. Therefore I am there to practise that stuff a lot.
> Regarding the production feedback I tried this time not to overpower the lowend and keep everything a little bit more grounded, and drier. I think it helps to get clarity in the production.


After a few listens it might not be the theme that is bothering me, but the orchestration. I think the piece could get to the next level if you would introduce the theme first without all the sugar in it. So people would already know it when you get crazy with it and connect more with it. You have such a great orchestration chops but maybe blasting it all from the beginning is overkill and distracting? Believe in your melody and let it be simple. I know it's hard when you already know the theme and it's getting boring, but think about the people who hear it the first time and are not musicians. Mike Verta talks about this all the time and it's really audible in many of the scores by Williams. Simple melodies with simple chords and then he gets crazy with it. I think it comes from his jazz roots, where they always introduce the basic theme first and then start to replace chords and improvise solos on top.

-Hannes


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 20, 2017)

Hanu_H said:


> After a few listens it might not be the theme that is bothering me, but the orchestration. I think the piece could get to the next level if you would introduce the theme first without all the sugar in it. So people would already know it when you get crazy with it and connect more with it. You have such a great orchestration chops but maybe blasting it all from the beginning is overkill and distracting? Believe in your melody and let it be simple. I know it's hard when you already know the theme and it's getting boring, but think about the people who hear it the first time and are not musicians. Mike Verta talks about this all the time and it's really audible in many of the scores by Williams. Simple melodies with simple chords and then he gets crazy with it. I think it comes from his jazz roots, where they always introduce the basic theme first and then start to replace chords and improvise solos on top.
> 
> -Hannes



I know what you mean. As general rule or guideline I normal do take a bit ore time before I go all over the place. But I deliberately went that way on purpose here though I am aware of that this borderlined busy orchestration has its problems to follow and still as part of a case study I was testing things out to see if and how certain orchestratons can be realized with samples.


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## clisma (Oct 20, 2017)

Alexander, I think this is really outstanding. Sure, there are a couple of spots where one can tell it’s not a real orchestra, but that’s peanuts, the gems are in the writing and orchestration, which are both solid in my opinion. You capture the style quite well and provide the sort of visuals in one’s mind that bring you back to those awesome films.

I couldn’t really focus on the theme much, with all the orchestrational shenanigans trying to grab my attention, but behold, when I went to do another task, there I was humming your theme, completely unaware of having registered it. So I think that worked too. 

Overall, I think it’s really great. I also applaud your continued efforts in improving this aspect of your craft with so much diligence. Gut gemacht!


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## jononotbono (Oct 20, 2017)

Looking forward to checking this out later. Thanks for sharing it!


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## Illico (Oct 20, 2017)

Very nice piece and a very nice orchestration. Technically, it is a very well job and I am jealous of the result.
My constructive comment is that it seems that you set your stuff orchestration pattern like a demonstration (very good). You propose a beautiful melody and a exciting theme, but it is masked by excess of orchestral phrases. Depending of your goal, to make a demonstration or to make an emotional relation with your audiance, I suggest "Simple" is the "Best".
Sorry for my english, hope you catch my feeling.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 21, 2017)

clisma said:


> Alexander, I think this is really outstanding. Sure, there are a couple of spots where one can tell it’s not a real orchestra, but that’s peanuts, the gems are in the writing and orchestration, which are both solid in my opinion. You capture the style quite well and provide the sort of visuals in one’s mind that bring you back to those awesome films.
> 
> I couldn’t really focus on the theme much, with all the orchestrational shenanigans trying to grab my attention, but behold, when I went to do another task, there I was humming your theme, completely unaware of having registered it. So I think that worked too.
> 
> Overall, I think it’s really great. I also applaud your continued efforts in improving this aspect of your craft with so much diligence. Gut gemacht!



Danke Clisma, nett von Dir! 

Yes, agreed the orchestration is borderlined busy. 



jononotbono said:


> Looking forward to checking this out later. Thanks for sharing it!



Enjoy your altiverb :D


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## jononotbono (Oct 21, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Danke Clisma, nett von Dir!
> 
> Yes, agreed the orchestration is borderlined busy.
> 
> ...



A very kind VI-C member just sold me their license and can’t wait to get stuck in with it!


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## thov72 (Oct 21, 2017)

really busy, but very, very nice. I´d like to hear a similar piece where the melody is more clear.


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## Loïc D (Oct 22, 2017)

Splendid !
What libraries did you use and how much time does it take to produce such a flourishing arrangement ?

Congrats


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## JF (Oct 22, 2017)

I enjoyed listening to this, Alexander. I actually bought the SSO after hearing some of your pieces on here because they were so well done.

I agree with others that it is a little too busy, but I find even with melodies from the greats it takes a few times of listening to get the melody stuck in your head.

I'd love to see the 2 handed piano score!


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 22, 2017)

Pretty glorious Alexander. Love the style and realization!
I actually like the busyness very much. Yes, maybe the melody gets slightly buried here and there, but I can easily imagine it being a mid-movie development of a theme that has been well established.

Would love to see the two handed piano score as well. It's a practice I want to get into, but find it hard to know how much / little to put in there.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 23, 2017)

Jey Rasmus, and JF, here is the basic piano draft. Some few things I changed in the orchestration later on. Sometimes voicings and chords, but the main thing is there. I had different versions of the sketches, the very early ones were even more basic and for the piano part more meaningful. Having said that I don´t create those draft to let them sound great or even pianistic, they are just there to help me structure the piece and getting a basic idea of where I want to go, so don´t expect everything is sounding perfect there.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9tpntyxnr79rdzq/Alex_More_Adventure_Stories_Piano.mp3?dl=0

@Rasmus Hartvig
@JF


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 23, 2017)

Here is btw a cubase screencast of the mididata with a wet version which uses tree and ambient micings prominently. First I liked that version, but Claude, a friend from another forum told me that he was interested to hear a more dry version, so in the end I found out that this more intimate dry version is not huge from the sound, but much more detailed, anyways, here is the MIDI MASSACRE :D


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 24, 2017)

Thanks for showing the piano sketch Alexander. That was really illuminating! There's quite a lot of detail in there. I guess some of it is programmed in at a later stage?

I will have to give piano sketching a try again soon. I'm just very bad at "hearing through" the fact that it doesn't sound that good at the sketching stage. I guess that's maybe something that comes with experience.


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## NoamL (Oct 24, 2017)

Hanu_H said:


> I think the piece could get to the next level if you would introduce the theme first without all the sugar in it.



This is the difference between John Williams and everyone else! He knows exactly how simple to start and when it's ok to get complex. He leads the audience perfectly.


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## Nesciochamp (Oct 24, 2017)

I kinda like the track, but I do have some remarks; 
There is A LOT going on in this track, I had to listen to it a couple of times to get a grasp of it. 
Which is a compliment on itself, but at the same time my critique. The John Williams in me (lol) says that the introduction of the theme could have been more easy-listening. Add layers later, so people recognize it, no matter how cacophonous it gets. Just my two cents. All in all, you did very well placing all those instruments in the mix and I'm looking forward to your next track.

edit; reading some posts back; this has been said numerous times, but I'm going to post this anyway. Cheers!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 24, 2017)

NoamL said:


> This is the difference between John Williams and everyone else! He knows exactly how simple to start and when it's ok to get complex. He leads the audience perfectly.



Yes, he knows, thats why we should, including myself do that stuff and learn. But thank you for reminding me not beeing on a level of John Williams! It is funny you mentioned that. Would be strange after 4 years of doing such music that I am on his level, right? I think he was like 30 years doing that stuff before he wrote his first big thing like star wars, guess I need not to feel too bad about this track regardless that it doesn´t met up with J.W or maybe your expactations.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 24, 2017)

Nesciochamp said:


> I kinda like the track, but I do have some remarks;
> There is A LOT going on in this track, I had to listen to it a couple of times to get a grasp of it.
> Which is a compliment on itself, but at the same time my critique. The John Williams in me (lol) says that the introduction of the theme could have been more easy-listening. Add layers later, so people recognize it, no matter how cacophonous it gets. Just my two cents. All in all, you did very well placing all those instruments in the mix and I'm looking forward to your next track.
> 
> edit; reading some posts back; this has been said numerous times, but I'm going to post this anyway. Cheers!



Yes it was said quite a lot, and again, I did said that to the other guys already: It is not that I don´t it. It is the way how I aimed that piece to be, stress testing some things. But thanks for reminding me.


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## Nesciochamp (Oct 24, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes it was said quite a lot, and again, I did said that to the other guys already: It is not that I don´t it. It is the way how I aimed that piece to be, stress testing some things. But thanks for reminding me.


I wasn't trying to remind you my friend. I gave my two cents, hope I didn't offend you. 
I have great faith your next track will blow me away.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 24, 2017)

Nesciochamp said:


> I wasn't trying to remind you my friend. I gave my two cents, hope I didn't offend you.
> I have great faith your next track will blow me away.



No, I am never offfended..please..every one can shoot out what he wants. really no worries. Your comment was completely welcome and fine and so..yeah :D Thank you for listening and yeah, I have today written a 30 Second Fanfare..which is exactly the opposite of that track..just to remind myself that simple things can also work.


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## Paul T McGraw (Oct 26, 2017)

@AlexanderSchiborr this is an amazing, AMAZING piece of work. First, your mastery of your samples is perfect. No one does a better job of recreating a real orchestra with samples than you. There are a few people who do equally well, but you are now among the best of the best. I own some Spitfire products and what you have achieved takes many, many hours of patience and a very good ear. Spitfire products sound great when properly used, but they are not easy.

The mix is very detailed and clear. I personally prefer slightly more room sound, but this mix is believable and attractive.

Composition and orchestration are superb, really superb. You use your thematic motives effectively. The layers are perfect. You have foreground, middle and background elements seemingly throughout the entire track. And these elements are well crafted containing contrapuntal elements. The orchestration of each element is brilliant. Effective use of every section of the orchestra.

The piece reminds me of the style of Back to the Future and the best of Horner and Goldsmith. This is an example of the quality of composition that makes many music lovers say that film music is the true classical music of today.


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## Paul T McGraw (Oct 26, 2017)

@AlexanderSchiborr I know that you have to focus on making money, everyone needs money, but I would love to hear you expand this in both directions, previous material (introduction, initial theme presentation) and subsequent material (perhaps a contrasting idea, development, recapitulation and finally coda). Good luck my friend, I feel certain that one day you will be famous.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 26, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr I know that you have to focus on making money, everyone needs money, but I would love to hear you expand this in both directions, previous material (introduction, initial theme presentation) and subsequent material (perhaps a contrasting idea, development, recapitulation and finally coda). Good luck my friend, I feel certain that one day you will be famous.



But Paul..I do music in first line because I love music, not because of the money. And regarding money I would definitely earn more when I would do a regular job. Actually it is a bit slow with projects in this months. 




Paul T McGraw said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr this is an amazing, AMAZING piece of work. First, your mastery of your samples is perfect. No one does a better job of recreating a real orchestra with samples than you. There are a few people who do equally well, but you are now among the best of the best. I own some Spitfire products and what you have achieved takes many, many hours of patience and a very good ear. Spitfire products sound great when properly used, but they are not easy.
> 
> The mix is very detailed and clear. I personally prefer slightly more room sound, but this mix is believable and attractive.
> 
> ...



Oh thank you..man..but what can I say to such a flattering comment. You know the truth is I take devices from other composers and mix them to learn and work on my skills. This track is everything but not very original. At least it teaches me some stuff about inner voice leading and some typical hollywood devices, like what you already rightly mentioned with Silvestri for instance. I featured at 2 places this kind of heroic cowboy riding ranch cadence or this thing at the end. It is actually not that much Williams I have to say, as he is doing different voicings and tends to like the french approach of orchestration "the most with the least" and I pretty much need to remind myself on that. It would be interesting to re orchestrate that piece with that technique though.
Regarding room and ambience: Yes, it has a bit less of that. I normally use much more ambient and tree mics on the spitfire, this time not. I wanted to try out something different using close micings in first place with added almbient and tree to have a bit more of lively intimate sound. It doesn´t sound that BIG..but it has a lot of details which I prefer actually because you can´t hide your bad orchestration behind a big reverb here.


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## synergy543 (Oct 26, 2017)

Alexander, you've added great additions to your piece since I last heard it. I do wish it could breathe a bit more at some spots (particularly the first mintute and 1/2). And as I've said before (on redbanned) I think there are some orchestration techniques that might improve this though I don't know how to tell you what they are as I'm not experienced enough. In lay terms, I feel as if I'm hearing the foreground elements but not some of the underlying support foundation. 

None of these comments are to be critical (as I'm in awe of what you've done) but to help you possibly learn more from it as I understand that is your intent. btw, if you have a score of the orchestration I'd love to have a look at it to study myself.

One thing that might be a fun learning idea would be to take a JW theme and orchestrate it yourself (with the same overall orch arch structure) and then go back and compare the details of the orchestration. What did he (or Spencer or Pope) do differently? I can't think of a better way to learn really.

Congratulation on your achievement and thanks for sharing.


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