# I've never won a contest before...



## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

...and that hasn't changed.
From my first talent show in 6th Grade, playing "Plush" by STP, to the most recent Scoring Contest (not the one below). It just never happens. While I know it shouldn't matter, there's something about it that would be validating.

I don't know if it's a good thing to believe in your compositions ability to win, even if it never does. Or is it a sign of an inability to adapt, as well as being delusional?

I don't think I've ever posted this track. But I was very happy with it and thought it fit the scenery really well. Am I wrong?
The conceited part of me even believed it fit the scenery "better than anyone else's"


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 30, 2020)

nothing musically to grab onto - textures and pitches aren't "wrong" but they aren't something followable.

without a melodic anchor, should be atleast a subtle rhythmic anchor - else we just feel like we're floating in "no idea what comes next" land. There needs to be a predictable element or everything will feel arbitrary.


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> nothing musically to grab onto - textures and pitches aren't "wrong" but they aren't something followable.
> 
> without a melodic anchor, should be atleast a subtle rhythmic anchor - else we just feel like we're floating in "no idea what comes next" land. There needs to be a predictable element or everything will feel arbitrary.


Thanks! That's a pretty good take on it I think. 
Strangely enough I think I was going for the "floaty", amorphous sound. 
I was hoping the subtle progression of harmony would add something. 
Perhaps I need to study more Bach, Mozart, etc. My schoolmasters have been Debussy, Ravel and Sibelius. The first two often being attributed to "impressionism" (however unfairly that may be).


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 30, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> Thanks! That's a pretty good take on it I think.
> Strangely enough I think I was going for the "floaty", amorphous sound.
> I was hoping the subtle progression of harmony would add something.
> Perhaps I need to study more Bach, Mozart, etc. My schoolmasters have been Debussy, Ravel and Sibelius. The first two often being attributed to "impressionism" (however unfairly that may be).



floaty only feels like floaty if there was a ground and you're no longer touching it. That's what sticks out to me, and my main focus when I got into music was trying to make weird stuff sound approachable. I could be wrong, but that's what I took away from it


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> floaty only feels like floaty if there was a ground and you're no longer touching it. That's what sticks out to me, and my main focus when I got into music was trying to make weird stuff sound approachable. I could be wrong, but that's what I took away from it


No, I don't think you're wrong. We all have a legitimate take on things.
I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong here. But any criticism is welcome and appreciated because if one is willing to listen, and take what they can and learn, they will only get better.
It doesn't mean I have to agree with your approach 100%. But I already feel like I've learned something from you.
For instance, I never thought about it the way you phrased it "floaty only feels like floaty if there was a ground..."
It makes me think, like you've helped me expand my understanding in some way.
But then at the same time I personally feel like "why does there need to be a ground at all?" .... and I'm back to my first "classical" love, Debussy, who said "Beauty is the law" to one of his teachers.
I think I can't help but fight against a rigid approach to anything. But your perspective has led me to think of things in a new way, regardless of whether or not I agree with the premise.


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

Here's a piece I did explicitly inspired by Debussy, do you think this is on more solid foundation? or does it suffer from the same static qualities? Maybe I'm just so used to hearing my own melodic style, that I can't hear it the same way others do.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 30, 2020)

as musicians we tend to hear things differently, this kind of music is unsettling for normal people. That said, if your goal is to make music wins competitions, and is generally appealing - you'll run as far away from "newer" Debussy as you can. 

I don't make music for other people, so I do what pleases me(which half of the time means messing around, and not actually making music). If that's your goal, pour yourself a bowl of 12 tone serialism and dig in


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> as musicians we tend to hear things differently, this kind of music is unsettling for normal people. That said, if your goal is to make music wins competitions, and is generally appealing - you'll run as far away from "newer" Debussy as you can.
> 
> I don't make music for other people, so I do what pleases me(which half of the time means messing around, and not actually making music). If that's your goal, pour yourself a bowl of 12 tone serialism and dig in


So what you're saying is, if I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, I really shouldn't be surprised with any contest results. You are definitely right. I really don't want to change who I am. But I do want to improve in my journey on the full realization of my own style. I appreciate your thoughts as I feel like they have helped me in that way.

Yeah, I was thinking about the 12-tone approach. They are actively trying not to establish a foundation, or a grounding, otherwise it wouldn't work haha
I personally don't care for it. I think Schoenberg did some interesting pieces (I loved some of the work in Pierrot Lunaire). But I think it's more of a style to try every once and a while, rather than an approach worth adopting for your whole life. Ironically, I think it's too limiting. Just as I think Jazz rules are too limiting. They were created with the idea of being more free, but oddly created their own rigid way of doing things. Anyways, that's a debate for another thread I suppose


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 30, 2020)

This is what I did for fun today. I made metal with a snes style library called musicbox.

I don't plan on changing, but I don't expect anyone to like it. LOL I can write stuff people will like better than what I like, but still. edit: maybe @AlexanderSchiborr would be a fan of it haha


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## Illico (Jan 30, 2020)

How to convince during a contest? It's very hard, 50% is subjective, you've to catched the audience with something that they know (confort zone) or at the opposit with something new (who identifies you among all of composers). So probably you have to play with both (a couple of chances). Then 50% is objective, quality of sounds (samples), quality of orchestration, mixing and mastering. There are standards, or mistakes you don't have to do for a contest. I always like to ear the result of other composers to compare with mine.


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## Kery Michael (Jan 30, 2020)

I thought it was pretty good. Some nice dissonance sprinkled in there.

I would've liked to hear some more low end come in.... around 1:00 in or so. Would've added a little variety and lifted the song just a little for a quiet climax.


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> This is what I did for fun today. I made metal with a snes style library called musicbox.
> 
> I don't plan on changing, but I don't expect anyone to like it. LOL I can write stuff people will like better than what I like, but still. edit: maybe @AlexanderSchiborr would be a fan of it haha


haha, I like it a lot!


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## Illico (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> This is what I did for fun today. I made metal with a snes style library called musicbox.


hAha... I thought you made a mistake on the project sample rate when you loaded your wav files in your DAW...


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

Kery Michael said:


> I thought it was pretty good. Some nice dissonance sprinkled in there.
> 
> I would've liked to hear some more low end come in.... around 1:00 in or so. Would've added a little variety and lifted the song just a little for a quiet climax.


Thanks for the tip!


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

Illico said:


> How to convince during a contest? It's very hard, 50% is subjective, you've to catched the audience with something that they know (confort zone) or at the opposit with something new (who identifies you among all of composers). So probably you have to play with both (a couple of chances). Then 50% is objective, quality of sounds (samples), quality of orchestration, mixing and mastering. There are standards, or mistakes you don't have to do for a contest. I always like to ear the result of other composers to compare with mine.


Pretty much how I feel about it.


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## Denkii (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> This is what I did for fun today. I made metal with a snes style library called musicbox.
> 
> I don't plan on changing, but I don't expect anyone to like it. LOL I can write stuff people will like better than what I like, but still. edit: maybe @AlexanderSchiborr would be a fan of it haha


I actually believe the world needs more SNES black metal. This stuff is awesome!


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## youngpokie (Jan 30, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> I don't think I've ever posted this track. But I was very happy with it and thought it fit the scenery really well. Am I wrong?
> The conceited part of me even believed it fit the scenery "better than anyone else's"




I personally think it's a lovely piece of music and thank you for posting it! From what I understand, you gravitate towards impressionism and mood in music, which for me, for example, would be incredibly difficult to conceive and write as I grew up on the mid romantic period. In general, I think impressionism requires a more cultivated musical sense and a different mindset when listening. And the few contests that I've looked at so far seem to be going for more accessible styles. 

I don't know if you're familiar with Anatoly Liadov's music, but your piece reminded me of this:

Enchanted Lake


I remember reading somewhere that he was writing impressions based on a mental journey through a "picture", so to speak, and that he used orchestration to highlight and bring forward some elements or observations of something that he noticed or that popped up in this mind. Apparently, he even wrote a program or guide to this piece describing in words what was going on. I guess this technique is what allowed him to create accents in writing and in dynamics that maintain interest... 

I was fortunate to listen to this piece live in concert once and the way the texture is woven and how the whole thing unfolds is really mesmerizing.


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> I personally think it's a lovely piece of music and thank you for posting it! From what I understand, you gravitate towards impressionism and mood in music, which for me, for example, would be incredibly difficult to conceive and write as I grew up on the mid romantic period. In general, I think impressionism requires a more cultivated musical sense and a different mindset when listening. And the few contests that I've looked at so far seem to be going for more accessible styles.
> 
> I don't know if you're familiar with Anatoly Liadov's music, but your piece reminded me of this:
> 
> ...


Wow, Enchanted Lake is a wonderful piece!

And thank you for the kind comments regarding my piece.

I wouldn't say I necessarily always try to go for a certain genre or sound. But it often seems to end up more "impressionistic" anyways.


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## Grim_Universe (Jan 30, 2020)

The piece is actually not bad at all. And I feel it fits well at the start, but then it becomes a little bit too epic. Not in a sense of the stock music epicness, ofcourse, but all these voices and huge sounds suggest something really big, you know? That's why I feel you had to concentrate more on timbres and rhythmes. Nothing bad at all that u dont have any melodic theme there - it is a trend that wont dissapear anywhere. Probably it lacks a bit of "memorability", probably not even melodic, but harmonic. Not a bad work at all tho!


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## youngpokie (Jan 30, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> I wouldn't say I necessarily always try to go for a certain genre or sound. But it often seems to end up more "impressionistic" anyways.



I ended up on your soundcloud and listened through a couple of tracks there. What's striking to me is how your music is gradually building up and slowly unfolding over time, like in "Winter Approaches" and "Peace and Longing".

It's strange, but I do find a lot of Russians late romantics/early impressionists and modernists were developing something like this (of course with the French). Listen to Glazunov symphonic poems, for example, he really perfected this "wall of sound" that's evolves over time, even though it's not strictly speaking impressionism. Some pieces from the orchestral suites by Rimsky-Korsakov, a ton of stuff by Liadov, etc, etc. Liadov, in particular, was big on whole tone systems.

Karelia, Glazunov

Kitezh, Rimsky Korsakov

Not to mention the Isle of the Dead. So, I kind of feel that you have a knack for this (complicated) genre somehow but with a modern arsenal of sound tools, and that's why I made my comments earlier.


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

Grim_Universe said:


> The piece is actually not bad at all. And I feel it fits well at the start, but then it becomes a little bit too epic. Not in a sense of the stock music epicness, ofcourse, but all these voices and huge sounds suggest something really big, you know? That's why I feel you had to concentrate more on timbres and rhythmes. Nothing bad at all that u dont have any melodic theme there - it is a trend that wont dissapear anywhere. Probably it lacks a bit of "memorability", probably not even melodic, but harmonic. Not a bad work at all tho!


Really appreciate it! Many good points in there.


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> I ended up on your soundcloud and listened through a couple of tracks there. What's striking to me is how your music is gradually building up and slowly unfolding over time, like in "Winter Approaches" and "Peace and Longing".
> 
> It's strange, but I do find a lot of Russians late romantics/early impressionists and modernists were developing something like this (of course with the French). Listen to Glazunov symphonic poems, for example, he really perfected this "wall of sound" that's evolves over time, even though it's not strictly speaking impressionism. Some pieces from the orchestral suites by Rimsky-Korsakov, a ton of stuff by Liadov, etc, etc. Liadov, in particular, was big on whole tone systems.
> 
> ...


Well I'm flattered that you would compare me to those composers!
Granted I haven't heard many of them. I for sure know Korsakov, and I love some of his work. 
Other than that, the only Russian Composers I know well are Shostakovich, Tchiavosky, and Stravinsky. I've heard of many others, but I don't know their work very well. 
Thanks for the links, I'll be sure to check them out. 
And thank you for taking the time to listen to my other work


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> What's striking to me is how your music is gradually building up and slowly unfolding over time...
> 
> It's strange, but I do find a lot of Russians late romantics/early impressionists and modernists were developing something like this (of course with the French). Listen to Glazunov symphonic poems, for example, he really perfected this "wall of sound" that's evolves over time, even though it's not strictly speaking impressionism.



I think this is because usually I am forming a complete idea in a short amount of time. A vast majority of my music has been written impromptu. So building up over time seems to be a natural progression that I follow as I play and develop an idea in real time.
"Peace and Longing" for instance, was composed and mastered in about a 20 minute span.
"Winter Approaches" is probably a similar case. In fact, I think it would be the exception if you found a piece that I did not write and record in one sitting.

Here's one example of a piece I actually worked out. When I first wrote it I even had a page of notes about how it would be orchestrated. But I lost it...since that was about 15 years ago :(
But I still want to have it orchestrated. I think I may have to pay someone though. I still labor over scoring and reading music. I just don't have the patience. I think my Dad would love it if it were orchestrated though. Though I know your parents always think the best of their own children's work, he think it's my "masterpiece"
This performance is too slow in my opinion, and for the life of me I cannot find the original MIDI file. I can only find my sloppy MIDI performances before I finally got it, well, "less" sloppy.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 30, 2020)

As @ProfoundSilence said, there's nothing musically to grab onto, but to be fair, there's nothing in the video/footage to grab onto either. It's some random shots of a forest. I also agree that it is a very floaty vibe, but so is the footage, so I think you musically captured the vibe of the video perfectly.

Unfortunately, i have no idea what 8dio was even trying to do here, so it's difficult to judge your piece not knowing their criteria.

Regardless, i think it's a beautiful, and relaxing piece of underscoring. If you want the audience to lock onto something, then it definitely needs a melody of some sort, but if your goal was to create some lovely ambience, then mission accomplished.

Btw, I actually enjoyed the music a lot more than the footage.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 30, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> If you want the audience to lock onto something, then it definitely needs a melody lf some sort, but if your goal was to create some lovely ambience, then mission accomplished.



even a rhythmic motif works wonders

boom boom clap ------ boom boom clap ------ =100% chance you're singing the word "we" immediately after reading that - and no pitches were harmed in the proccess


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> even a rhythmic motif works wonders
> 
> boom boom clap ------ boom boom clap ------ =100% chance you're singing the word "we" immediately after reading that - and no pitches were harmed in the proccess


I think I've been drenching my ears too much in the ambient work of Eno. 
I just sit and play a choir pad for 10 minutes and think "there, it's done" 

But in all seriousnesses (well, not really). I like everything to have a purpose or reason for being. So maybe that's why I don't like just adding stuff in order to make it more appealing. 
I guess I'm a minimalist then?


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 30, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> As @ProfoundSilence said, there's nothing musically to grab onto, but to be fair, there's nothing in the video/footage to grab onto either. It's some random shots of a forest. I also agree that it is a very floaty vibe, but so is the footage, so I think you musically captured the vibe of the video perfectly.
> 
> Unfortunately, i have no idea what 8dio was even trying to do here, so it's difficult to judge your piece not knowing their criteria.
> 
> ...


Wow, thank you so much!  
Much appreciated. 

Yeah, I'm not sure what they were doing either. The video is kind of boring in some ways. But perhaps so people could put pretty much anything over top it.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> even a rhythmic motif works wonders
> 
> boom boom clap ------ boom boom clap ------ =100% chance you're singing the word "we" immediately after reading that - and no pitches were harmed in the proccess


It's a catchy beat, no doubt, but i think the reason why it works so well in that context is because of the following lyrics and melody (and guitar, of course). It's an energetic relationship that keeps the song going, and grabs ahold of you throughout.

A listener can lock onto just rhythm, but for how long? I personally give up pretty fast on someone's music if they want my full attention, and rhythm is their only anchor.

If that Queen song only had the infamous drum beat that everyone knows and loves, it wouldn't be the infamous drum beat that everyone knows and loves.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 30, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> I just sit and play a choir pad for 10 minutes and think "there, it's done"



I refer to this as the Spitfire Syndrome. 

Seriously, once i get those EVOs going, there's no stopping me.


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## ryans (Jan 30, 2020)

I think your music nails the floaty/ethereal? vibe you were going for, it's great.. I could hear this underscoring a billion scenes..

But, I don't think it fits the rhythm of the visuals here.. it's hard to explain why.. your music is almost too.. coherent? The music had a beautiful, rising.. quality to my ear. I don't get that from the scene at all.. so I felt the music was disconnected with the scene...

The footage is put together so randomly, awkward.. fast cuts, then slow... I feel like the music needs to be something really minimal.. abstract, random changes with no timebase... Just my gut feeling, I could be totally out to lunch... but I think stronger melody and/or harmonic tension would be incredibly distracting here...

This probably isn't very helpful sorry.. it's just so hard to identify the reasons why a piece of music doesn't 'stick' to picture...

I really do like your track 

Ryan


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## Loïc D (Jan 30, 2020)

Illico said:


> How to convince during a contest? It's very hard, 50% is subjective, you've to catched the audience with something that they know (confort zone) or at the opposit with something new (who identifies you among all of composers). So probably you have to play with both (a couple of chances). Then 50% is objective, quality of sounds (samples), quality of orchestration, mixing and mastering. There are standards, or mistakes you don't have to do for a contest. I always like to ear the result of other composers to compare with mine.


I could not sum it up better !


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## yhomas (Jan 30, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> Here's a piece I did explicitly inspired by Debussy, do you think this is on more solid foundation? or does it suffer from the same static qualities? Maybe I'm just so used to hearing my own melodic style, that I can't hear it the same way others do.




My aesthetic perception is not of any particular value, but you’ve asked for input...

With a casual 1st listen, I hear what sounds like mostly aimless random notes—not much music for me to latch on to.


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 30, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> even a rhythmic motif works wonders
> 
> boom boom clap ------ boom boom clap ------ =100% chance you're singing the word "we" immediately after reading that - and no pitches were harmed in the proccess


Guilty


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 31, 2020)

ryans said:


> I think your music nails the floaty/ethereal? vibe you were going for, it's great.. I could hear this underscoring a billion scenes..
> 
> But, I don't think it fits the rhythm of the visuals here.. it's hard to explain why.. your music is almost too.. coherent? The music had a beautiful, rising.. quality to my ear. I don't get that from the scene at all.. so I felt the music was disconnected with the scene...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the constructive criticism  
Don't worry, there are not right or wrong answers. I think this was helpful.


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## Erick - BVA (Jan 31, 2020)

yhomas said:


> My aesthetic perception is not of any particular value, but you’ve asked for input...
> 
> With a casual 1st listen, I hear what sounds like mostly aimless random notes—not much music for me to latch on to.


I understand that completely.


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## 1millionJason's (Feb 1, 2020)

[


ryans said:


> But, I don't think it fits the rhythm of the visuals here.. it's hard to explain why.. your music is almost too.. coherent? The music had a beautiful, rising.. quality to my ear. I don't get that from the scene at all.. so I felt the music was disconnected with the scene...
> 
> The footage is put together so randomly, awkward.. fast cuts, then slow... I feel like the music needs to be something really minimal.. abstract, random changes with no timebase... Just my gut feeling, I could be totally out to lunch... but I think stronger melody and/or harmonic tension would be incredibly distracting here...
> 
> Ryan



I was about to post essentially the same thing as Ryan. For the first 40 seconds I could almost count to three at the same tempo and there would be a video cut. I felt the music didn’t match the video with the editing. However it did match the scenery itself and the idea of coming up to the hole in the tree was nice. I liked the music although I am not so sure about using it for a competition.


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