# Email from Denis at 2C Audio



## sinkd (Jun 12, 2022)

Just got an email from 'Denis [formerly?] at 2C Audio'. Long story that I will not post here, unless anyone can confirm, but it asks me to boycott the company and products because of a pending lawsuit. Weird that it came to my school email, and I don't own any 2CA effects.


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## ok_tan (Jun 12, 2022)

yeah i got a similar email some time ago. i am a costumer.
i think its very bad style to use the customer data base for personal fights. i deleted it.


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## MarcelM (Jun 12, 2022)

i got that mail too, but maybe like one or two weeks ago or something. iam not sure whats going on there and why the customer gets such an email at all.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 12, 2022)

The two founders of 2CA seem set on burning it to the ground instead of settling their differences.


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## el-bo (Jun 12, 2022)

Got the mail maybe a month ago.


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## paulmatthew (Jun 12, 2022)

I received one at the end of May. The email seems to be going out in batches over the period of the last few months to anyone on 2c Audio's mailing list.


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## muk (Jun 12, 2022)

There is a huge thread on KVRAudio where both Denis Malygin and Andrew Souter posted their point of view:









KVR Forum: 2CAudio Breeze | 2.5 | Simple. Light. Pristine. Intelligently Adaptive. - Page 114 - Effects Forum


KVR Audio Forum - 2CAudio Breeze | 2.5 | Simple. Light. Pristine. Intelligently Adaptive. - Page 114 - Effects Forum




www.kvraudio.com


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## artinro (Jun 12, 2022)

I got the email too a while ago. While I’m not sure who is being more truthful, I must say I found sending emails like that out to be in extremely poor taste. It’s a shame to see this happen as it essentially means current products won’t be updated. Was hoping to see native apple silicon support.


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## HeliaVox (Jun 12, 2022)

I just got my second email a few days ago. I agree that this is in poor taste and a misuse of the customer database.


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## Michel Simons (Jun 12, 2022)

muk said:


> There is a huge thread on KVRAudio where both Denis Malygin and Andrew Souter posted their point of view:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There can only be losers in this fight, including the customers.


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## walkaschaos (Jun 12, 2022)

Yeah I got this as well a while ago, super weird. Like I just want spacey reverbs bruh don't involve me in your dramatic business shit.


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## sinkd (Jun 12, 2022)

Zoinks. What a mess! Anyway, thanks for the context everyone.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 12, 2022)

I got that email too a few weeks ago - deleted it. Horrible etiquette to hijack the customer email list to make claims about the other founder. Seems legally he shouldn’t even have access to the list anymore. His posts on KVR are pretty whacky too. Lot of discussion of the past. Not sure why he doesn’t cut his losses and move on - start up a separate company, get the real revenge by making a better product. Founder infighting is a story as old as time in the corporate world.


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## Damarus (Jun 12, 2022)

Same here.. Unfortunate for the company. Their reverbs are top notch. I'm hopeful that the dev takes the code, ditches the UI for anything other than what it was, and starts 3C audio.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 12, 2022)

Damarus said:


> Same here.. Unfortunate for the company. Their reverbs are top notch. I'm hopeful that the dev takes the code, ditches the UI for anything other than what it was, and starts 3C audio.


At the same time there is no shortage of reverbs on this planet. I bought Aether when it first came out for $149 which seems pricey today in the world of $29 plugins.


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## el-bo (Jun 12, 2022)

kitekrazy said:


> At the same time there is no shortage of reverbs on this planet. I bought Aether when it first came out for $149 which seems pricey today in the world of $29 plugins.


It's not really a world of $29 plugins, though. There're a couple of vendors that are big enough and who have enough inventory to 'bargain basement' all their wares. That doesn't mean they aren't worth (In a non-monetary sense) more. Nor does it mean that other developers are selling over-priced plugins or that plugins such as Aether and B2 (That's the one I own) aren't good enough to justify the asking price.


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## Saxer (Jun 12, 2022)

I used to have a lot of Breeze instances in my templates but I removed them after the end of updates and forum silence here. I don't want to have non M1 native plugins when I'm switching to a Mac Studio in the following month. Internal fights doesn't help trusting in a product no matter how good it is. I hope they get it solved.


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## Kuusniemi (Jun 12, 2022)

Well shit, these have been gaining traction on my projects. Hope things get resolved. That whole matter sounds very unprofessional, no feuding between founders of any company is the fault of customers.


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## Trash Panda (Jun 12, 2022)

Both parties strike me as too stubborn for their own good. I remember complaints about phasing issues being made. 

Andrew’s response was to create his own phase meter that corrected for sine frequencies or some such to prove there weren’t phase issues in the frequencies that matter. 

Cool story, bro, but why does it still sound like phased out garbage in mono until I disable your plugins? 😆

I am a little surprised to see Denis continuing on like this. If he were in the U.S. I’m sure he’d be opening himself to some pretty ugly lawsuits with this behavior.


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## Nimrod7 (Jun 13, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I am a little surprised to see Denis continuing on like this. If he were in the U.S. I’m sure he’d be opening himself to some pretty ugly lawsuits with this behavior.


Yeah, he is digging his own grave. Even if he is 1000% right, he shouldn't exposed customer data to communicate. That a defamation lawsuit by it's own, apart from the other things.


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## emilio_n (Jun 13, 2022)

A perfect moment to ask... Any alternative to the Precedence plugin? (If is Apple Silicon Native much better)


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## rrichard63 (Jun 13, 2022)

emilio_n said:


> A perfect moment to ask... Any alternative to the Precedence plugin? (If is Apple Silicon Native much better)








Plug in equivalent to VIENNA MIR PRO


Hi, Do you know software equivalent to Vienna MIR PRO, please? (For orchestral positioning) Thanks and good courage for containment, Christian



vi-control.net










VSS versus MIR


This topic came up a few years ago, but at the time VSS was just placement, no reverb. Well VSS has come a long way over the years, the gap between the two seems pretty small now, and I think it's worth revisiting this today: for those users who have both, how do VSS and MIR compare? What can...



vi-control.net










Inspirata Reverb from Inspired Acoustics!


Hey friends and colleagues! I hope all is well with you during these times! I just saw this and wanted to reach out so that you'll get a copy of the Lite edition while it's available! Sign up and follow the instructions! https://inspiredacoustics.com/en/products/inspirata-workstation#overview




vi-control.net










How Do You Simplify/Unify The Dozens of Different Reverbs from Different Instrument Libraries?


As I'm relatively new to digital composing, I've hit a brick wall with how to deal with all these different reverbs that load with every instrument. What do you all do when you're using different instruments in Kontakt, Engine, Spitfire, etc.. and they all load with their own reverbs as the...



vi-control.net










Plugin to position instruments


Hi, Are there any plugins available that help you position instruments in their own space? e.g, something that will allow me to push brass instruments to the back of the room, bring strings forward etc? Thanks



vi-control.net


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## rrichard63 (Jun 13, 2022)

Here are two more threads that I missed earlier:






Current Virtual Stage / Room Placement Tools


Panagement CM http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/free-stereo-toolkit-panagement-cm-645145 Redmix http://mildon.me/plugins/redmix TDR Proximity http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/ Oculus Spatializer Native...




vi-control.net










Virtual Sound Stages


Hi all, Excuse my ignorance, but I'm trying to 'place' certain instruments in a 'space'. For example I'm using Audio Modelling Trumpet and 'Bones and want to make it sound like it's in a room with my piano, bass and drums. The reverbs I have (the reverbs built into Logic) and not really...




vi-control.net


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## emilio_n (Jun 13, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> Here are two more threads that I missed earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! A lot of to explore here!


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## Trash Panda (Jun 13, 2022)

emilio_n said:


> A perfect moment to ask... Any alternative to the Precedence plugin? (If is Apple Silicon Native much better)


Save up for MIR when it becomes available for iLok. After demoing it and every other virtual sound stage option, I can say with confidence that nothing else comes close to it. Maybe the IRCAM Spat stuff could, but that's even more expensive.


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## Leslie Fuller (Jun 13, 2022)

No sure what is going on at 2C Audio! For the past 3 days I’ve received 5 emails one after the other each morning asking me to activate my account with them. I go to the website and it is already activated?


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## gamma-ut (Jun 13, 2022)

Are they actually from 2CAudio or Denis trying to set up a shadow operation?


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## Leslie Fuller (Jun 13, 2022)

They looked genuine, but I’ve unsubscribed in any case.


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## rrichard63 (Jun 13, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Save up for MIR when it becomes available for iLok. After demoing it and every other virtual sound stage option, I can say with confidence that nothing else comes close to it. Maybe the IRCAM Spat stuff could, but that's even more expensive.


I agree, and eventually I bought MIR Pro 24 when it was on sale. But I also think it's important to have one or more less expensive alternatives available in the marketplace. As far as I know, Precedence + Breeze is still the most promising of these alternatives. So I hope 2C Audio survives this crisis.


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## jcrosby (Jun 13, 2022)

Leslie Fuller said:


> No sure what is going on at 2C Audio! For the past 3 days I’ve received 5 emails one after the other each morning asking me to activate my account with them. I go to the website and it is already activated?


I'd be careful. The KVR thread (I wish I still had the link) had two separate 2C developers suggest Denis might be up to some shady stuff. Seeing that I've received more than one email about this as well now, and went back though a support email from last year with some very weird instructions (which struck me as risky) I'm inclined to believe it's more likely to be true than not...

I'm not saying it _is_ true, but I'm not willing to risk my security over a developer I only own a few plugins from that is clearly skating on thin ice, if not on the brink of folding...
Just saying, it's better to be cautious...


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## el-bo (Jun 13, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> I agree, and eventually I bought MIR Pro 24 when it was on sale. But I also think it's important to have one or more less expensive alternatives available in the marketplace. As far as I know, Precedence + Breeze is still the most promising of these alternatives. So I hope 2C Audio survives this crisis.


I like DearVR Pro. Perhaps not going to be the preferred choice over MIR, if true-to-life orchestral placement is required. But still has a place when it comes to creative mixing


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## el-bo (Jun 13, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> I'd be careful. The KVR thread (I wish I still had the link) had two separate 2C developers suggest Denis might be up to some shady stuff. Seeing that I've received more than one email about this as well now, and went back though a support email from last year with some very weird instructions (which struck me as risky) I'm inclined to believe it's more likely to be true than not...
> 
> I'm not saying it _is_ true, but I'm not willing to risk my security over a developer I only own a few plugins from that is clearly skating on thin ice, if not on the brink of folding...
> Just saying, it's better to be cautious...


Whatever the full truth of the situation, Denis won't gain customers' trust (He wants people to 'buy' - literally - into his new, potential creative endeavours) if his first move is stealing an email list and sending this shit to customer inboxes.


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## Piano Pete (Jun 13, 2022)

I'd hate to see the company go under, as I genuinely feel their plugins are great. B2 is still one of my favourite reverbs, if it wasnt so darn CPU hungry.

Luckily I'm still on windows, so for the time being, I do not have to immediately find an alternative; however, if push comes to shove, I'll go back to using a large plugin chain to achieve a similar result.

I know a lot of people swear by MIR, but I have never even heard of SPAT. Will have to look into it.


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## Jrides (Jun 13, 2022)

Very glad I did not buy precedence.


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## rrichard63 (Jun 13, 2022)

el-bo said:


> I like DearVR Pro. Perhaps not going to be the preferred choice over MIR, if true-to-life orchestral placement is required. But still has a place when it comes to creative mixing


I have yet to experiment with DearVR Pro. I guess it's time to do that now.


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## Robo Rivard (Jun 13, 2022)

It really breaks my heart, because at some point, I wanted to go at full throttle the Precedence way (I actually had most of my ERA libraries into position in my template)...


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## el-bo (Jun 14, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> I have yet to experiment with DearVR Pro. I guess it's time to do that now.


If it's for purely orchestra work, not sure how good the results would be. If it's for any other genre (even a fusion using orchestral instruments), you should be fine. But I'd advise composing/recording into the plugin i.e don't go about the whole process, then at the mixing stage just start using it. The change in the overall sound would be too dramatic, and I'm inclined to believe you'd hate the results.
But if you start placing instruments during the composing phase, the sound-design/selection process will be better informed (No shocks when the bottom of the mix drops out and gives way to a phasey mess).

Another thing to remember is that you don't need to do the whole piece in binaural. Subtle use of normal stereo 'padding' (as in pads, literally) can help provide some coherence if you've gone crazy with the binaural placement.

Lastly, if you use Logic pro, you have access to the internal binaural panning (Not used the most recent atmos stuff). Having this at the end of the channel-strip as it is, can offer even more chance for focus and placement, to reign in the DVR placement. An example is reducing the stereo spread of a sound that has been placed in DVR.

Have fun with it. Here's an example of an arrangement using DVR, by our very own TTF @Reid Rosefelt


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 14, 2022)

el-bo said:


> If it's for purely orchestra work, not sure how good the results would be. If it's for any other genre (even a fusion using orchestral instruments), you should be fine. But I'd advise composing/recording into the plugin i.e don't go about the whole process, then at the mixing stage just start using it. The change in the overall sound would be too dramatic, and I'm inclined to believe you'd hate the results.
> But if you start placing instruments during the composing phase, the sound-design/selection process will be better informed (No shocks when the bottom of the mix drops out and gives way to a phasey mess).
> 
> Another thing to remember is that you don't need to do the whole piece in binaural. Subtle use of normal stereo 'padding' (as in pads, literally) can help provide some coherence if you've gone crazy with the binaural placement.
> ...



Thanks @el-bo Actually that piece was made with dearVR MUSIC, which used to sell for $99 and I got for $49 in their December sale. DearVR PRO, the more expansive plugin, is $349 so I didn't consider it. Today it's on sale for $79! 

When I did this and other binaural music, I understood the importance of binaural for gaming, but not necessarily music, where most people probably don't like to be told they must put on headphones. But then I discovered a popular meditation program for Oculus Quest 2 called TRIPP VR. In the reviews I've read, people don't even know what "binaural music" is, they just know they love it when they are surrounded by a virtual dreamscape.


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## el-bo (Jun 14, 2022)

Reid Rosefelt said:


> Thanks @el-bo Actually that piece was made with dearVR MUSIC, which used to sell for $99 and I got for $49 in their December sale. DearVR PRO, the more expansive plugin, is $349 so I didn't consider it. Today it's on sale for $79!


I think I got PRO for around the $79, a few years back. Definitely a great price, imo. However, I'm pretty sure it can now be had in the FOREVER29 deal, for $31...at any time. Perhaps someone who knows more about the sub can confirm whether DVRP is excluded.




Reid Rosefelt said:


> When I did this and other binaural music, I understood the importance of binaural for gaming, but not necessarily music, where most people probably don't like to be told they must put on headphones. But then I discovered a popular meditation program for Oculus Quest 2 called TRIPP VR. In the reviews I've read, people don't even know what "binaural music" is, they just know they love it when they are surrounded by a virtual dreamscape.



Ever since getting the app, I've contemplated going all-in on binaural mixes. The flaw in my pan being that I wasn't considering I'd actually have to finish music, first 

I don't really have any problem instructing listeners to put on headphones. Been asking that of people who want o listen to my music, for years. Not because of any special mixing, but because I feel it's a superior listening experience and much easier to actually focus on the music.

Anyway...Now that Atmos tools are being rolled out into various DAW, 3D audio will become more common-place. And until the inevitable 'Make 2D music great again' backlash, I think people will generally become much more used to a more dynamic music presentation.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 14, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Perhaps someone who knows more about the sub can confirm whether DVRP is excluded.


Correct. Never pay more than $31 for ANY PA plugin. For $79 you can buy two and a half of them. No exceptions. Subscribe for one month and then cancel and re-sub any time.


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## Russell Anderson (Jun 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> The two founders of 2CA seem set on burning it to the ground instead of settling their differences.


I would say Denis is the one trying to burn it to the ground, but if what he says is true I understand his frustration. Problem is, we have no idea who is telling the truth and it is not our responsibility to take care of 2C's public image by acting as a court. I am just placing all of my opinions about 2c on hold until I hear an official resolution, it is unprofessional to be handling the situation this way to be sure, but hey, life is a wild west sometimes and something like this isn't going to stop me from considering buying plugins from anyone in the future once names are cleared. I just hope they reflect on this afterward... Or, now, lol


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## gamma-ut (Jun 15, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> I would say Denis is the one trying to burn it to the ground, but if what he says is true I understand his frustration.



It does look that way but reading both their accounts makes me think Andrew laid the ground for this some years back, treating Denis as a mere contractor rather than actually creating a proper partnership. Denis has been wildly unprofessional of late but Andrew seems to be hiding behind a contract that seems manifestly unfair so I can understand to some degree the lashing out that Denis is conducting – though you could argue he should not have signed it in the first place. 

If Andrew's public claims are true he should have been able to replace Denis a while back in order to release updates: under any normal contract Denis would clearly have crashed through the termination clauses. Which makes me think Andrew was too clever by half in the beginning. Now it's bitten him on the arse (and the customers as well) and he has no viable plan or, by the looks of it, any intention of fixing the situation.


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## Kuusniemi (Jun 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> It does look that way but reading both their accounts makes me think Andrew laid the ground for this some years back, treating Denis as a mere contractor rather than actually creating a proper partnership. Denis has been wildly unprofessional of late but Andrew seems to be hiding behind a contract that seems manifestly unfair so I can understand to some degree the lashing out that Denis is conducting – though you could argue he should not have signed it in the first place.
> 
> If Andrew's public claims are true he should have been able to replace Denis a while back in order to release updates: under any normal contract Denis would clearly have crashed through the termination clauses. Which makes me think Andrew was too clever by half in the beginning. Now it's bitten him on the arse (and the customers as well) and he has no viable plan or, by the looks of it, any intention of fixing the situation.


The problem with this case is that we have zero knowledge of what their contracts say. This case should probably the handled by lawyers. Neither is helping their cause by discussing on forums, if there is some outcome of speaking on forums is it will come back to bite in their asses once the lawyers start going through the case.

Ugly as hell, but you should always know what you are putting your name on.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 15, 2022)

Kuusniemi said:


> The problem with this case is that we have zero knowledge of what their contracts say.



Though this is true, I think you can infer a lot from the public statements which despite all the differences in framing do match up quite well, such as Andrew referring to Denis as a contractor* even though the core of the first product was developed by Denis (which is, again, something that Andrew said publicly).

I entirely agree that it's well past the point the lawyers needed to get involved. However, the situation is undoubtedly not helped by Denis being in Russia, that lawyers cost money and from what I've seen of US contractual disputes, if it says it in the contract, you're stuffed. 

Resolution really comes down to Andrew agreeing to change – and lawyers are not going to control that decision, just advise on what's realistic – though I believe one problem here is that Denis was not specific about what changes he might agree to, which is not going to help. That's one reason why I don't hold out much hope for these tools beyond 2CA assets going in a fire sale to some third party. It has a lot of similarities to the Auchitect situation, which at least had the resolution that Zynaptiq picked up the code and was able to reactivate the licences.

* _"Denis Malygin is legally a contractor to 2CAudio, LLC. Denis is in breach of the contract that governs the relationship between himself and 2CAudio. I have attempted to reconcile matters directly with him for quite some time now, but we make no positive progress."

"Aether was developed jointly by myself and Denis. Denis developed a test algorithm called "SpaceVerb" that was 80% done, which he brought into 2CAudio. He was compensated for this contribution a very long time ago."_ - https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8375475#p8375475


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## el-bo (Jun 15, 2022)

So...what can replace B2?


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## Kuusniemi (Jun 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> Though this is true, I think you can infer a lot from the public statements which despite all the differences in framing do match up quite well, such as Andrew referring to Denis as a contractor* even though the core of the first product was developed by Denis (which is, again, something that Andrew said publicly).
> 
> I entirely agree that it's well past the point the lawyers needed to get involved. However, the situation is undoubtedly not helped by Denis being in Russia, that lawyers cost money and from what I've seen of US contractual disputes, if it says it in the contract, you're stuffed.
> 
> ...


It's a mess, but since we don't know what it says in their contract, I am disinclined to believe either party. Without actually knowing what they have agreed upon either one can say things we can't verify. I have no idea who is right or who is wrong.

I will be sad if the 2CAudio products go the way of the dodo, since they are great and do things at a price range that is hard to beat.


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## Saxer (Jun 15, 2022)

There is no right or wrong side as fights like this are mostly driven by emotional decisions and each party has its own viewing angle. In this state no side is really reliable. So until this isn't cleared and ebbed and kind of restarted I wouldn't expect any results. That's all I have to know. It's a pity but shit happens. The plugins still work and for the near future there are other reverbs out there.


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## nas (Jun 17, 2022)

I got the email a couple of days ago and I felt it was in bad taste to be honest. Anyway, not really using 2c products these days so no major loss.


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## PebbleStream (Jun 22, 2022)

Piano Pete said:


> I'd hate to see the company go under, as I genuinely feel their plugins are great. B2 is still one of my favourite reverbs, if it wasnt so darn CPU hungry.
> 
> Luckily I'm still on windows, so for the time being, I do not have to immediately find an alternative; however, if push comes to shove, I'll go back to using a large plugin chain to achieve a similar result.
> 
> I know a lot of people swear by MIR, but I have never even heard of SPAT. Will have to look into it.


Out of curiosity, what sort of plugin chain would you use?


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## 2c-d (Jun 28, 2022)

1. I'd like to thank everybody for their posts here. I appreciate your feedback.
I got actually surprised to see this thread today as my initial posts months ago
on this forum were completely removed by admin, and thus I did not expect that anything
related to the situation would be allowed here.

Proof of information removal:





Finding out whether a thread has been deleted


Is there a way to determine whether a thread that you can't find any more has been deleted? Here's my situation. Sometime in the last two or three months there was an extended discussion about a personal/professional conflict between the two partners in the plugin development company 2CAudio...




vi-control.net





*MODERATOR NOTE*_ - As @rrichard63 points out later in this thread, those posts were deleted because they were in a Commercial Announcements thread, which is inappropriate.

I have removed the rest of this post (an outline of Denis's grievances) since no one here wants the drama, especially given that all 2cAudio customers *already* got an email from Denis making these same accusations. So there's no point to repeating them again here. This dispute is a legal case, not a VI-Control case. (Unless the accusations involve legato, of course, in which case you have our attention!)_


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## doctoremmet (Jun 28, 2022)

Truthfully, customers just want their developers to be stable providers of functional future-proof plugins, and decent support. 

They aren’t typically interested in reading one-sided stories of one founder about contracts, internal disputes etc. It makes them feel insecure about the future AND the professional attitude of the developer. Those conflicts should be dealt with by co-founders. Not in the public domain, but internally.

But what bothers most people MOST, including me, is that one co-founder apparently uses email adresses that were collected by a company they trusted to send messages that do not pertain to the product they bought but rather are used for personal purposes of one of the founders. I can assure you that’s a violation of EU privacy legislation right there and as much as I feel sorry for you both personally there is no better or faster way you could have lost ANY trust I still had in your company.

Please stop posting stuff like this. Rather, work it out with your business partner. Or don’t, and move on. Do not abuse your (ex) customers and their private email adresses you somehow still have access to (illegitimately). Thanks.


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## jcrosby (Jun 29, 2022)

This is getting ridiculous. People bought licenses to use software, not a tickets a soap opera between two developers that are clearly beyond reconciliation. At this point I'm worn out, and just want to know if what I bought will continue to be supported, and ultimately if the developers have *socially evolved* to the point of being able to put differences aside in order to ensure the enduser isn't left holding the bag.

The answer appears to be an overwhelming no.


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## 2c-d (Jun 29, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> It's not that nobody cares, it's just that there's nothing anyone can do and there is something you both can do, even if it takes time.


2CAudio customers could help the situation. This is what I tried to communicate. If they organize a petition to Andrew he would be forced to respond and tell users whether or not or how he is going to support the products further having no lead developer who made 90% of the codebase.


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## el-bo (Jun 29, 2022)

2c-d said:


> 2CAudio customers could help the situation. This is what I tried to communicate. If they organize a petition to Andrew he would be forced to respond and tell users whether or not or how he is going to support the products further having no lead developer who made 90% of the codebase.


There is no petition to be made, and no answer for him to give. This should now be a legal concern between the both of you, and as such there are reasons why you or any other party should not be offering any response.

As frustrating as this is for us, the customers, this is the only way the situation can progress/resolve.


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## 2c-d (Jun 29, 2022)

regarding this:
* _"Denis Malygin is legally a contractor to 2CAudio, LLC. Denis is in breach of the contract that governs the relationship between himself and 2CAudio. I have attempted to reconcile matters directly with him for quite some time now, but we make no positive progress."_

This is not correct and Andrew provided no proof. The situation is that I sent invoice according to contract to Andrew for november 2021 (read xmas) sales in december 2021. The invoice was not paid and expired in February 2022. In dec'2020-march'21 Andrew also refused to send me my money according to the contract but eventually after long nasty talks he decided to send me my money. Of course this situation when one partner treats other's money as his own could not last for too long.


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## jcrosby (Jun 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> But the fact that one co-founder still has (and abuses!) my email address and Lord knows what other personally identifiable data worries me. And annoys me.


I'm not usually religious but... Amen to that.... Receiving unsolicited emails where my customer address is essentially being used to as a means to persuade my opinion is more concerning than it is annoying. (But it's still plenty annoying). People work these issues out in court, not by bombing customer email addresses.


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## el-bo (Jun 29, 2022)

2c-d said:


> Since I'm the initiator and co-founder of 2CAudio I have access to most
> user accounting records...
> [...]So why would I need to *steal* email database
> as some people claim here?


Stolen or not, you're using these emails for reasons other than intended, and ironically (sadly) you've done so in pursuit of seeking customer trust. All you've ended up doing is demonstrating that you don't seem to understand certain boundaries, which is no way to engender trust.


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## Kuusniemi (Jun 29, 2022)

I agree with the above statements. Even though I love the software, none of the other things are really something we need to be a part of. If the matter can't be resolved between the developers, then it should be resolved by lawyers and court.

We customers are not apart of that equation and should not be tried to be part of it. I am sorry, but to us neither of you are reliable as the both of you are driving personal gains.


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## 2c-d (Jun 29, 2022)

>@Andrew Souter very clearly posted that you are no longer employed by 2CA

could you please point me to the post of Andrew where he said that Denis was *employed*?


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## Trash Panda (Jun 29, 2022)

2c-d said:


> >@Andrew Souter very clearly posted that you are no longer employed by 2CA
> 
> could you please point me to the post of Andrew where he said that Denis was *employed*?











KVR Forum: 2CAudio Breeze | 2.5 | Simple. Light. Pristine. Intelligently Adaptive. - Page 114 - Effects Forum


KVR Audio Forum - 2CAudio Breeze | 2.5 | Simple. Light. Pristine. Intelligently Adaptive. - Page 114 - Effects Forum




www.kvraudio.com







2c-d said:


> What a nonsense. I've never been empoyed by Andrew. Why do you believe him out of nothing?


I believe him for several reasons. The two biggest ones are he isn't spamming every forum with this futile crusade nor is he stealing email addresses and sending unsolicited emails on said futile crusade to customers.

Additionally, the admin of VI Control very clearly indicated they do not want your drama on this forum by locking the last thread you started and stoked the flames on. Yet you persist.

I am done with this absurdity. Good day, sir.


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## rrichard63 (Jun 29, 2022)

2c-d said:


> Proof of information removal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The reason why several of Denis's posts were deleted is explained in the very next post after the one he quotes (emphasis added by me):



Mike Greene said:


> We almost never delete threads (unless it's politics or something like that), and that particular thread still exists here. It's not locked, because it's a Commercial Announcement thread and there may be more input about the product itself.
> 
> We (or rather, I) did delete the accusations from Denis, *because this was a Commercial Announcement thread*, which aren't supposed to be about controversy. It was also Page 7 of the thread, which was 8 months old, so I have no idea if Andrew (the other guy associated with 2cAudio) was aware Denis had posted these accusations there. I told Denis what I did and why, but for whatever reason, he didn't repost a new thread.
> 
> Wondering whether the plugins will survive is a legit concern, obviously, so assuming Denis doesn't post a new thread here (it looks unlikely, and probably pointless anyway), I believe the whole story was already discussed a month or two earlier on KVR somewhere, with both Denis and Andrew participating (I think), so that's probably as complete a discussion as we'll get.


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## Denkii (Jun 29, 2022)

How is the production of this low budget version of the Depp vs. Heart trial coming along?
Does anyone need a soundtrack? I'm good enough for something as stock as this.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 29, 2022)

I've deleted a number of posts, since the accusations being presented are one sided (Andrew is not here) and apparently all 2cAudio customers _already_ got an email from Denis making these same accusations. (I'll join in the chorus of not being a fan of email blasts for grievance purposes.) @2c-d, we already got your side of the story. Maybe it's valid, maybe it isn't, but unless Andrew chimes in, further drama about it is unwanted.

My deletions were admittedly sloppy, so please don't take offense if your post got deleted. Most posts were totally fine, but I just thought there were too many, so I tried to leave as few as possible that would still give an outline of what happened.

While we don't want further drama, the discussions people are having about alternatives or fixes are still cool, of course, so please feel free to carry on.


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## davidanthony (Jun 29, 2022)

@2c-d and Andrew, I would be happy to lead a private alternative dispute resolution process for the two of you, free of charge, if you're both interested.

When not making music I'm a licensed commercial attorney in California, with a pre-law background in web development and time spent in-house at Google, so I'm comfortable talking through all elements (technical, legal, musical) of a dispute like this. Feel free to PM if you want to discuss more!


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## rrichard63 (Jun 29, 2022)

davidanthony said:


> @2c-d and Andrew, I would be happy to lead a private alternative dispute resolution process for the two of you, free of charge, if you're both interested.
> 
> When not making music I'm a licensed commercial attorney in California, with a pre-law background in web development and time spent in-house at Google, so I'm comfortable talking through all elements (technical, legal, musical) of a dispute like this. Feel free to PM if you want to discuss more!


Commenting only to page @Andrew Souter by his forum ID.


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## 2c-d (Sep 8, 2022)

designersound.com - a web shop for 2CAudio products is no longer open to public which means you cannot purchase 2CAudio products.


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## emilio_n (Sep 9, 2022)

Sad to know that we will not see Arm Native version of these pluggings. Sad since they are really good.

At the same time, I am angry because I paid full price for a plug-in a few months ago and now is a legacy product that I can’t use anymore.


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## tmhuud (Sep 9, 2022)

I hope you guys work out your differences. You have such a passion for shaping sounds. It's hard seeing things go in this direction.


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## 2c-d (Sep 9, 2022)

emilio_n: you can ask Mr. Souter for a refund as it was his decision to grab my (Denis's) personal money and cut me from company emails. He is not a developer. He cannot update/support products contrary to what he claimed in march in kvr forum. I then told everybody that this man would just collect as much money as possible and run away. I've been talking here too, but nobody listened to me and all my relative posts were removed by admin.

I'm working on Aether 2.0 and will release it under my own brand since I researched and developed Aether prior to 2CAudio. all 2C users will get it for free. Other 2C products contain Andrew's IP in various proportions and I cannot legally release them. If Mr. Souter has no intention to update/support products then for users it would be the best if they could press him to assign all the assets to me. I'm the author of >90% of the code and I can update/support the products further. 2CAudio was invented by me, not by Mr. Souter as he tried to picture in public. As a proof I have all the necessary emails back from 2005-2008.


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## Daniel Silveira (Dec 14, 2022)

Disregarding the use of costumer´s emails for personal use by Dennis (which was wrong), I actually aprecciate something went public because it seems Andrew is running the show as if things are just normal when in reality it seems development is just stuck. I almost bought more of the 2Caudio products (having Aether), but I felt something was not right and looked around. To my surprise things are not just ok and I am happy I didnt find that out years ahead of buying something until an "Official" disclaimer from 2Caudio would finally come saying delevopment will not continue blah blah blah. If everything were to be done closed doors, costumers would still be paying money without knowing what was actually going on.

Whos right? I dont know and now I dont care, what I do care is to know at least things are not great at 2CAudio and I would definetily not buy their products regardless if the code belongs to X or Y. I prefer to know the product will be supported for years to come and it doesn´t look good as far as I see.


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## 2c-d (Dec 14, 2022)

Thanks for sharing concerns about 2CAudio. I'm here and open to answer questions about the situation.
I'm working on Aether 2.0 which will be available next year. All 2C users who purchased Aether until nov'21 will be eligible for a free license. I have all the necesary information to verify the serials because I have most of the purchase records which is something you would not expect to have access to if one is *nobody* to 2CAudio as Mr. Souter tried (in order to deceive and have an excuse for his actions) to present is his only exposure to users about the situation at kvr forum in march'22. This alone immediately disqualifies all his statements/claims. And why there is no official statement on the web site about the situation. What Mr. Souter tries to hide from users and potential new customers? Maybe he tries to hide the fact that he is collecting money but have really no ability to provide support. Everybody knows how such activity is called and how it must be treated.

I did not receive my profit share from Mr. Souter since nov'21. At the moment Mr. Souter put already about 30+K USD of my personal money into his pockets. One year is more than enough to deliver updates by hiring a good system programmer to do the job. Yet Mr. Souter did not even release Catalina+ signed installers/binaries which require just a few days of efforts. Also by nov'21 we internally had a new product which was completed by me 80% already. it would take only some little efforts to finish it up (2-3 months) Where is it? What Mr. Souter does is collecting money infringing US and international copyright laws. Note that even if he starts releasing updates Aether would be the last in the line because it's the oldest and it's 99% my RnD and the code (with lots of vector code written in manual asm).

If not Mr. Souter's hostile actions to me and users, VST3 and the ARM native support would already be available this spring. I have re-coded already most of the dsp vector library in ARM NEON vectors and it's working just fine and delivers good performance benefits. And with this new lib I can easily add support for next gen Apple CPUs as well.

Denis,
2CAudio Initiator, Co-Founder and the Lead Developer


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## 2c-d (Dec 14, 2022)

2C users who want to know the *official* info about support further updates of products could simply send a corresponding inquiry to Mr. Souter at: [email protected] or [email protected]


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