# Compressors, what's all the FUSS about?



## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

So during this time at home with the family I've finally been able to catch up on my JXL and HZ production videos. JXL of course has a full online course. HZ you'll have to hunt but they are there. Both have helped so much that I'm tearing down all my old productions and starting new. 

But.... I know that JXL uses everything so that's not the point. He goes on about Waves API which is cool. Not knocking that he likes it. So I got it and I'm like ah, it's okay. Which makes me think since he's JXL that I'm not doing something right. Before I bought this I did a shoot out with every software compressor I have. Cheap ones, paid ones, free ones, the SSL knock off in Reason, the Cubase onboard one. The TDR free compressor. I tested at least a dozen of them, watch probably hundreds of shootouts of people raving about this or that compressor. Bought the API from waves and have been testing that this afternoon and I'm like, meh... They all sound about the same and don't do much. 

So walk me through it. I too on occasion want that slamming drum sound but failing to get it with a compressor. Marginally better at making the synths more full, but just marginally. Did get somewhere by putting the EQ before the compressor but again, meh. 

So far the free one from Tokyo DAWN LABS beats them all except it's limited in the amount of compression it will do. 

So what am I missing? Why is one compressor consider "so much better" than the others? 'Cause right now they all sound about equally average to me.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

I do seem to be getting a better sound if I compress in stages on a bass synth patch I sampled. I compress the patch in Kontakt. Then I EQ the hell out of it making it as big as I can then compress that with the API. Sounds really high quality. So I'm staring to see the appeal a bit.

Seems like if you just rely on one compressor to do it all that compressor gets overworked and pumpy and sounds bad. But, if you take the edges off in stages a lot of processing can be done. Hmmm.....


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## Anders Wall (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> So what am I missing? Why is one compressor consider "so much better" than the others? 'Cause right now they all sound about equally average to me.


Try and work them in the extreme, see how they sound. Try feed them multiple channels with different material (percussive, bass to treble etc) at the same time and listen to the result.
Set all to zero and listen what they do to the sound when they are "not" processing the audio.
Most software try to emulate hardware and hardware has it's quirks all from the tubes or the optical senors to the transformer etc
Myself im not an API person, so I can't really give you input on that compressor. But I'm sure that it's as god as it gets.

Best of luck,

Anders


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## Alex Fraser (May 11, 2020)

I kind of agree. Where there are differences, they're not "night and day" as the hype would suggest.
I've given up the search - I just use the Logic stock stuff, worry no more and plough onwards. That said, I consider mixing a necessary evil so I'm not likely to give you a debate.


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## Anders Wall (May 11, 2020)

If you want to visualize the difference there's a plugin that help you see and maybe understand (it's still rocketscience to me...) what the different plugins actually does to your sound.








Plugindoctor


DDMF builds some of the finest audio apps and audio plugins on the planet. VST, Audio Units, AAX plugins for Cubase, Reaper, LogicX, ProTools…



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Earlier today a colleague showed me the Pulteq EQ what the controls really do and I have to say my first two thoughts were, wtf and ah-ha that explains so much...

Best,
Anders


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 11, 2020)

Try them on an actual recording, Jose, since it hasn't been compressed already.

You'll hear a major difference between, say, and 1176 emulation and an LA-2A one (not that all compressors are emulations). The 1176 should be a lot brighter, while the LA-2A can do 15dB of compression - a *lot* - on a vocal and it'll still sound natural due to its optical "circuitry."

It's harder to hear on synths, since they're already synthetic.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

Anders Wall said:


> If you want to visualize the difference there's a plugin that help you see and maybe understand (it's still rocketscience to me...) what the different plugins actually does to your sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a good idea. I'm going through now and resolving all the unresloved questions I've had for a decade now. And, the compressors and the Pultec are a mystery to me so I've avoided the Pultec like the plague even though I have 3 "pultec" style EQ's. And, I've muddled along with compressors. It's just not enough to know what the buttons do because you learn it then realize that every maker in the world has a different idea on what the buttons should do.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Try them on an actual recording, Jose, since it hasn't been compressed already.
> 
> You'll hear a major difference between, say, and 1176 emulation and an LA-2A one (not that all compressors are emulations). The 1176 should be a lot brighter, while the LA-2A can do 15dB of compression - a *lot* - on a vocal and it'll still sound natural due to its optical "circuitry."
> 
> It's harder to hear on synths, since they're already synthetic.


 Great idea!

I'll pull up some natural sounding clarinet recordings I have and also some uncompressed natural drums and try them out. 

Yes, I did run into the problem of the drums being already so compressed that adding more compression just made them worse. I think that devs should lay off the baked in compression and will now be only buying drums with minimal to no compression on them. Or just roll my own.


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## ceemusic (May 11, 2020)

Deep subject..also google audio compressor shootouts, there's tons of them starting with this one
Here


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## Dex (May 11, 2020)

Anders Wall said:


> If you want to visualize the difference there's a plugin that help you see and maybe understand (it's still rocketscience to me...) what the different plugins actually does to your sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Care to share?


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## Dex (May 11, 2020)

OP: they’re basically all the same in terms of operation, but they have somewhat different attack and release curves and add different amounts of saturation/distortion.

If you’re learning how to set your compressors, scroll down a few posts in this thread:https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=389365


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## Will Blackburn (May 11, 2020)

Nebula and proper gain staging. The bigger issue is most kontakt devs seem to be lacklustre at the recording stage so it's always an uphill battle.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

ceemusic said:


> Deep subject..also google audio compressor shootouts, there's tons of them starting with this one
> Here


I hear you but man, I've heard so many shootouts. I haven't listened to your link and I will for sure, but the ones I've heard 90% of them put up some cheesy ass drum loop that you could buy in the '90's in a library going for $50. Then they do the shootout with a dozen or so compressors on the already compressed cheesy drum loop. Then people debate for 10 pages on how this or that compressor sounds "so much better" and smoother and more musical. Then they debate for 30 pages on how superior UAD is to Waves or that Softube is better than UAD, blah, blah, blah...and I'm listening carefully with my forensic hearing on going..."I don't hear a damn bit of difference in any of the playback tracks". Then I sulk around thinking there must be something wrong with me because to my ears UAD, Softube, ect... they all sound equally average. 

One guy even did a shootout between a real SSL compressor and the SSL knock off in Reason and he couldn't hear the difference. Whether he knew what he was doing or not is debatable but I couldn't hear the difference either. So then I'm like wow! Either my ear doesn't hear compression at all or people don't know how to use compressors including myself.


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## gsilbers (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> So what am I missing? Why is one compressor consider "so much better" than the others? 'Cause right now they all sound about equally average to me.




marketing. in a nutshell. 


i also downloaded all SSL clones and compared them. didnt hear anythign different between them. i think it was the uad, waves, ssl, and pluginalliance. 
poeple where raving the pluginalliance one back when it was $299 or something. now not so much at $29. so thats part of psicologicla pricing. 
anyways, turns out the plugin alliance once has a small button for harminc enhancer. once i disabled it, it sounded just like the waves. 

its very old technology. there is basically VCA, opto and FET. plugins model these types. and each can do somehting a bit different and each can cross over others. 

Im now entering the oldskool era... i bought the waves ssl when it came out or around 2006. i think it was like $600 for the bundle that has the channel strip. 
but back then there was this one video i cannot find anymore but it was one of these top mixing dude... maybe chris lord age maybe? 
he mixed a rock track with a real ssl g series console and then did the same settings with the plugins and there was an A/B you could listen and it sounded the same. to me... and to them in the video. 

so its just marketing. same as wine where you think the $60 bottle of chateau le crap is way better than the $9.99 kirkland from costco... well.. more accurately its beter than the other 500 bottles of wines ranging from 9 buck to 13 bucks each tasting slightly different but all being good to drink and enjoy. 
we now are taking this marketing gimmics and brand adoration in social media and it creates a huge grey area. 
to me, samea s you... didnt like much the API compressor. i just use the H-comp hybrid. 
which i then copy the settings i like on my logic pro compressor which has all these models. 
and its easier to sum up w just one click and i move on. i also tested and the logic one is equaly as good as all those being peddled in the same range. some of course have some new bells and whistles like enhancers, eq side chains and so on.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> marketing. in a nutshell.
> 
> 
> i also downloaded all SSL clones and compared them. didnt hear anythign different between them. i think it was the uad, waves, ssl, and pluginalliance.
> ...


Glad it's not just me. I just thought my ears are getting worn.


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## Stringtree (May 11, 2020)

Low volumes come up, high volumes come down. Everything fits into a nice envelope that the listener hears as average-louder. 

The little person inside is twisting two knobs, and how that person is electronified describes the character of the compressor. 

Some "units" are aggressive and thunky. Some are gentle and unobtrusive. For symphonic stuff, you don't want to hear a noise floor ramp up during quiet parts and a hammer whacking the horns and trombones. Don't want to hear a compressor at all.

My favorite is the Aphex Compellor. It reacts to frequency bands independently and manages the "loudness" intelligently. That was seventy-five of my dollars that I could have spent on samples.

For rock? Meh. Whack on a Reaper Reacomp and dial in 2:1 - 4:1, pull the slider down until it engages the program material that's really dynamic, just take a bite out of the super wild transients, and then click the makeup gain checkbox. Salt and pepper to taste.

I have a hardware comp on my Nord and my electronic drums, before they hit the inputs. No clippy. Either the DBX 266 or the Compellor. Vocals that might get loud. Gentle slope before hammer fall. 

Nice compressors? RNC from FMR audio, Neve 33609N, Chandler EMI TG opto compressor, API 529. As much as I love the pixels, the hardware has a certain WHACK. 

It's so satisfying to turn a knob. 

I wondered the same about mic preamps. Why? What specifically? What is the big deal? Then, sound. Presence, clarity, crunch, all the little hairs on the back of my neck. It's like Billy Elliot. The gear just goes away and it's the stuff you're hearing in recordings instead of the equipment.

Greg


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## sostenuto (May 11, 2020)

Anders Wall said:


> If you want to visualize the difference there's a plugin that help you see and maybe understand (it's still rocketscience to me...) what the different plugins actually does to your sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




_Hard to pass @ $25._ ...... 

OTH, Melda - MMultianalyzer just went to 50% off @ $32. today __ FWIW. 









MMultiAnalyzer


Analyze everything



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## ceemusic (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I hear you but man, I've heard so many shootouts. I haven't listened to your link and I will for sure, but the ones I've heard 90% of them put up some cheesy ass drum loop that you could buy in the '90's in a library going for $50. Then they do the shootout with a dozen or so compressors on the already compressed cheesy drum loop. Then people debate for 10 pages on how this or that compressor sounds "so much better" and smoother and more musical. Then they debate for 30 pages on how superior UAD is to Waves or that Softube is better than UAD, blah, blah, blah...and I'm listening carefully with my forensic hearing on going..."I don't hear a damn bit of difference in any of the playback tracks". Then I sulk around thinking there must be something wrong with me because to my ears UAD, Softube, ect... they all sound equally average.
> 
> One guy even did a shootout between a real SSL compressor and the SSL knock off in Reason and he couldn't hear the difference. Whether he knew what he was doing or not is debatable but I couldn't hear the difference either. So then I'm like wow! Either my ear doesn't hear compression at all or people don't know how to use compressors including myself.



Then I'd start with the basics. What compression is, the different types, what they do & how each reacts to different material. Go to those pages listed on how to set one up.
Also keep in mind compression isn't always necessary or mandatory. If the material sounds better w/o then by all means leave it off.
It doesn't always have to be noticeable either, light compression used on an entire mix can yield better results than using one on a mix bus. Then again sometimes heavy compression is needed. I'd just keep trying until you get the hang of it, then use as any other tool in your arsenal.

I need to lightly tame peaks, level, bring up lower passages, pump, NY comp, gel an entire mix.


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## cqd (May 11, 2020)

You should be able to hear a compressor if you're doing it right..But clarinet isn't an instrument I'd associate a compressor with..


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## MartinH. (May 11, 2020)

Imho the best compressor for you is the one you _really _know how to use. I don't know any particular one a lot better than the others, so I'm still switching back and forth between different models and try out their presets. When I find one that works in a certain situation, I'm more likely to pick that one for that situation again, but it's not a choice of "X sounds so much better on Y", it's more like "this is the one where I can get the desired result from the easiest". Unless I'm using a compressor that also saturates, then the sound differences are more obvious to me.


Edit: Oh, that reminds me... Mick Gordon mentioned using a custom plugin that just takes everything between (if I recall correctly) -1db and -200db, and makes it -1db. Is there anything in NI Komplete or a free compressor that can be used like that? He also admitted "it's kinda stupid", but the way he demonstrated it, I saw the potential for sounddesign applications.


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## Stringtree (May 11, 2020)

OK, José, there's a lot of witchcraft and crap to be found in the marketing, and I agree with a lot of what's been posted as responses. 

An opto-compressor? So what. Cheap, cheap components. Many of which are built into the same blob of plastic. A light and a receiver. 

A zener diode? Twenty-five cents. A tube circuit? Many low-voltage tube circuits just leverage the high impedance of thermionic valves to cheat people out of money that could have been spent on better solid state electronics. 

The Field Effect Transistor smashed the "valve" or vacuum tube industry, and for good reasons. Power consumption. Thermal consistency. No need for abominably high voltages. Imperviousness to vibration, aging, scarceness of components.

Tantalum capacitors are tantalizing. But they're solely the reason gear catches fire because of capacitors. Electrolytics still suck, but there are good runs of good ones that don't suck. Bad ones schmurr out their goo and ruin expensive gear all the time, or lose their wetness and ruin your flatscreen TV. But so do alkaline batteries.

So all of this hardware stuff did things to sound that was born of the characteristics of the hardware equivalents that are now emulated in software. There's an envelope to the "device," a characteristic ADSR curve, a ratio of compression, and what happens to tones and harmonics as they enter and leave the treated area. 

LA2A, Distressor, Shadow Hills, Purple Audio, SSL. These units are found Everywhere, and why? They produce knob-sure results with incoming audio very quickly, and do their job with audible results. Who wants to apply a compressor that seems to "do nothing" to the signal? 

All depends on the source. The fuss about compressors is a very complicated ball of history and tech. 

Thanks for bringing it up? What is this, Gearslutz? Bring it, friend. I miss that. I don't miss spending all my cash on try-before-buy lessons in futility. But gear? Awwwww yeah. 

Discuss.

Greg


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## patrick76 (May 11, 2020)

It sounds like you're expecting one tool (the compressor) to do too much. This isn't a great analogy, but it is kind of like buying Hans Zimmer strings, and then wondering why you're not sounding like Hans Zimmer even though you have one of his tools. 

Proper eq is also vital for that tight aggressive sound. But, since we're talking about compressors...

If you haven't done any parallel compression (the NY compression that ceemusic mentioned), you should give that a try. If you're not familiar with that you set up an aux or parallel channel and send some (or all, depending on your track and what drums or percussion you are using) of your drums to that aux. Put a compressor on the aux and really overdo it. Crush it so it sounds ridiculous. Then, you adjust the volume to taste and feather the crushed sound back in with your original drum sound. This will give the drum sound more weight and power.

It's a complicated subject. I've been going down the mixing wormhole for years now and like composing, it seems it never ends


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## dgburns (May 11, 2020)

This is one of those subjects, like wine, it's just one of those things....

In my personal journey, software is still not there but there are pockets of acceptability. Much like the way the filters in Diva were such a revolution, compression is like an analog synth too, full of non-linear circuitry. Compression, in the analog world is full of factors that contribute, sometimes even more so than the gain reduction. I know of many a fine engineer that will use a box just for the transformers and circuit, with just a tap of the meters touching the levels.
Dynamic control ? sure any decent plugin will do - sort of.
Creative compression? Drums smack (try Zener limiter, 1176 on nuke in sub in parallel)
I love the API compressor, mostly for it's op amp, the feed forward design makes for a punchy sound. The Waves version is bland vanilla in comparison, imho.
Same for the LA3A - the best de-essor and mojo fixing box for bass, guitars, vocals and anything that sounds weak and shrill. Sure, I got close in the plugin world, but it was the McDsp AC2 that got the closest, and it's a tape emulation not a compressor. The Waves CLA series - vanilla, sorry. There's something about opto compression that takes to vocals and bass in particular.

A favourite trick of mine is to pass the mix though my Vintage Design CL1mkII and crank the makeup gain, it means I lower the send to the mixer, but it is difficult to get that sound any other way - transformer saturation with true carnhill trannies and class A circuitry, anything in the box just sounds like vanilla in comparison.

Compression isn't all about gain control, it's more about envelope shaping, especially on transient material, like drums. Enter the Distressor, not so much a mojo machine, but more of the ability to 'shape' the drum hits for more consistency and a similar contour. 

It's not that you are wrong about feeling lacklustre about the plugins, but you really need to know why you want to use compression in the first place. I would never use the Zener limiter on something delicate, the knee is just too abrupt and hard. But on a drum sub, it is magical, it adds that mojo you simply can't get ( without a good compressor ) The Kush UBK comes close - great plugin.

Now anyone with a good grounding in good comp techniques can coax a successful sound out of a plugin, but it's so much easier with the hardware sometimes. That said, once in the box, I use the waves stuff a bit. A little that pushes in the right direction can't hurt. But saturation is better for those sounds you want to tame transients on.

Nothing like too much compression to ruin an otherwise nice sound. that's where the blend control comes in handy, or said in another way the New York Style of compression.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

dgburns said:


> Compression isn't all about gain control, it's more about envelope shaping, especially on transient material, like drums. Enter the Distressor, not so much a mojo machine, but more of the ability to 'shape' the drum hits for more consistency and a similar contour.
> 
> It's not that you are wrong about feeling lacklustre about the plugins, but you really need to know why you want to use compression in the first place. I would never use the Zener limiter on something delicate, the knee is just too abrupt and hard. But on a drum sub, it is magical, it adds that mojo you simply can't get ( without a good compressor ) The Kush UBK comes close - great plugin.



This is the first thing that's made sense to me because that's what I'm experiencing. I can really control the shape of the envelope. Bring out the peck, peck, peck of a transient, ect.... But then I was like I have 10 transient designers that can do that.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

I've tried NY style compression as well. Can't say that I'm fond of it but you can get those drums slammin'

Thanks everybody for all the suggestions. I will do more experimenting tonight.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 11, 2020)

They all react differently. It's not just marketing.

But you could argue that compression is the hardest thing to learn about production, since it can do so many things. It's a lot more than just a really fast volume control.

On a mix, compression smoothes out the whole thing and glues it together (which is why Cytomic's bus compressor is called The Glue). It can also increase the density by letting you increase lower-level stuff.

A pop vocal without compression is really rare - it's just part of the sound. It can shave off the attack of a bass. Parallel compression can make drums slam while keeping some of the original dynamics. It can make things punchier, lighter - i.e. affect the envelope.

And it can make music sound like ass if you use it wrong.


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## jmauz (May 11, 2020)

Differences in plug-ins are much more subtle than hardware equivalents. Go to a studio that has the hardware versions and test them out. All of your questions will be answered. 

Otherwise, who gives a shit if it's in the box. Just use whatever sounds good to YOU. Forget what everyone else says. Opinions are like assholes after all....


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 11, 2020)

Usually - not in this case - people who use that line are assholes.


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## dgburns (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> This is the first thing that's made sense to me because that's what I'm experiencing. I can really control the shape of the envelope. Bring out the peck, peck, peck of a transient, ect.... But then I was like I have 10 transient designers that can do that.



Yes, transient designers play in the same game, for sure. Where the distressor is different is that you can shape the release as well. Think about the drum groove, on a slower groove, you can slow down the release, especially on kick, but on faster tempo stuff, you need to quicken the release so the envelope of the kick fully releases and when the next hit happens, the gain reduction is fully recovered. The point is to have the gain reduction always moving. Get it right, and it helps the musicality.
There is nothing better then hearing a well applied compressor on some drums. Then again, maybe it’s just the music I grew up listening to. I’m not a fan of character compression on electronic drums.

One trick is to alter the sound the detector ’hears’, such as rolling up the bottom. It has a tremendous effect on drums as well, because the comp hears the high end more, the real low oomph still powers through. I almost always alter the detector frequency when compressing, it can lead to great creative outcomes, like de-essing etc.

anyway


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## Jeremy Gillam (May 11, 2020)

I'm not an engineer but I've produced and mixed some music by this point that doesn't sound too terrible. I still feel like I've barely scratched the surface of understanding compression!

I often use multiple compressors in series if I need more than 3-6db of reduction (which as the OP discovered can work well). I like doing this on "big drums" and I always do this on pop/song vocals. For example on a vocal I might use a CLA 76, then the Fabfilter C2 , then the the RVox, and maybe the FabFilter multiband. I f***ing love RVox. It has a slider for compression and a slider for gain. I sometimes use it on long orchestral sounds too.

I try to embrace the philosophy, for my pocketbook and my craft, that I don't need to own every single plugin and emulation of classic gear -- I'm of the generation that never used it anyway. I just want to choose a handful of really great tools and try to learn how to use them. The FabFilter compressor has what, 7-8 modes? That's a whole playground right there! In addition to those mentioned I also use and like the Scheps Omni Channel compressors (3 separate modes), Waves H-Comp, RenAxx, the compressors in Zebra and Zebrify, and like the OP I bought the API when I saw the JXL video and I use that on cinematic drums when I want to feel like a big boy.

Looking forward to learning more from this thread...


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## gsilbers (May 11, 2020)

[QUOTE="


Edit: Oh, that reminds me... Mick Gordon mentioned using a custom plugin that just takes everything between (if I recall correctly) -1db and -200db, and makes it -1db. Is there anything in NI Komplete or a free compressor that can be used like that? He also admitted "it's kinda stupid", but the way he demonstrated it, I saw the potential for sounddesign applications.
[/QUOTE]

sounds like a mix of the waves vocal/volume rider and a limiter so u set thevocal rider to ride volume to certain point and then a limiter to squash it to only -1db.
It can also be done w a limiter but it would sound extremely pumpy.


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## labornvain (May 11, 2020)

So what you need to know is that there are really just four primary types of compressors.

An FET compressor, like an 1176, is a very fast compressor with a fast attack time. It's great for taming transients and also just adding warmth. It's known for coloring the sound and adding a lot of harmonic distortion. I recently read that Jimmy Page's guitar sound on the song Black Dog was created by running the guitar direct into the console and then running it through two 1176s and overdriving them.

The second type of compressor is an optical compressor like the LA-2A. This is a slow compressor and has a soft attack which is really good for some things. I love it on piano, bass, acoustic guitars, and vocals.

Similar to an optical compressor is a tube compressor. It's also a slow compressor and it has a tube gain stage that gives you a sweet harmonic distortion. It's really good for the mix bus-- just warming up the sound and slightly squeezing the dynamics.

Lastly, is a VCA compressor. This is an incredibly clean, transparent and fast compressor that makes it suitable for mastering, mix bus or drum buss processing, or anywhere you want extreme transparency. Examples of VCAs are the SSL bus compressor and the API.

Most compressor plugins are either modeled on one of these classic compressor types or are based on combinations/variations thereof.

And then you have just your basic, digital compressor plugins that are probably more similar to a VCA than anything, but they just perform the basic functions of a compressor. Many of these include features that were impossible when the early classic compressors were developed features like look ahead and spectral compression Etc.

There are a few compressor plugins that either combine the properties of classic compressors or give you choices between them.

PSP Audio, for example, has a compressor module in their "Infinistrip" plugin that allows you to set your compressor settings, and then switch the compressor type while retaining those settings. This is a particularly cool feature and allows you to experiment with different compressor types in a unique way.

Compression is an incredibly advanced audio engineering practice. It is vitally important, yet used correctly, quite subtle in its result.

Most of the differences between compressors are a product of how they affect your signal over time. And this can be challenging to listen for.

But after a while, you'll start to hear it. Just the other day I heard the song Handle With Care by the Traveling Wilburys on the radio and I noticed that whenever the kick drum hits, the volume of everything else drops down a bit. I don't believe I would have noticed that 20 years ago, or whenever that song came out. But I notice it now.


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## synergy543 (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


> So what am I missing? Why is one compressor consider "so much better" than the others? 'Cause right now they all sound about equally average to me.


Not to obfuscate or add to the voodoo, but most compressors as used in their typical function do sound pretty much the same. Everyone seems to compare the sound of kick drums and snare when comparing compressors (when you start slamming the levels, the sound will change - it gets "squashed"). For orchestral music though, you generally need very little compression and where you do need it would be just to tame the occasional aberrant peak so that you can maintain a more optimum signal level. So when it comes to orchestral music, the function of a compressor is generally to control the signal peak level rather than to change the sound (as the drum and guitar guys are often after).

One exception I've found for orchestral music is when you want to use a compressor to alter the sound due to the unique characteristics of the unit, such as saturation, or tonal coloration. For this, I've found the PluginAlliance Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor Class A (Red) to be very useful. Its hard to describe, but with certain sounds they just sound "better" going through it (with the right settings). Its a "red wine" thing (like a good bottle of Leonetti Reserve red wine - its quite spectacular). PluginAlliance has sales and I got this for something like $15, so if you want to try it, wait for a good sale. Its worth a gamble for $15 that you might find it useful too as a subtle coloration device more than as a level controller (although its dual compression also does subtle level compression very nicely). The Red version also has some unique controls underneath that are useful as well such as headroom, stereo width, etc. I have lots and lots of compressors, but this one stands out as being unique (as in "better") which is what you had asked about. Its my favorite new tool, YMMV.




__





Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor Class A


This Limited Class A RED Edition is the pinnacle of the Shadow Hills Sound, perfect for mastering, complete with TMT under the hood!




www.plugin-alliance.com





You gotta also appreciate the morbid sense of humor too. This company is having as much fun as its users. The perfect plugin compressor for a pandemic.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

cqd said:


> You should be able to hear a compressor if you're doing it right..But clarinet isn't an instrument I'd associate a compressor with..


Solo clarinet with mics about 4 or 5 ft away reacts much like a vocal can. So I'm use to hearing the clarinet and I might be able to hear what the compressor is actually doing if I bring it into a realm where I can fully trust my ears. That would be the reason. Not that I'd compress a clarinet for reals.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2020)

synergy543 said:


> Not to obfuscate or add to the voodoo, but most compressors as used in their typical function do sound pretty much the same. Everyone seems to compare the sound of kick drums and snare when comparing compressors (when you start slamming the levels, the sound will change - it gets "squashed"). For orchestral music though, you generally need very little compression and where you do need it would be just to tame the occasional aberrant peak so that you can maintain a more optimum signal level. So when it comes to orchestral music, the function of a compressor is generally to control the signal peak level rather than to change the sound (as the drum and guitar guys are often after).
> 
> One exception I've found for orchestral music is when you want to use a compressor to alter the sound due to the unique characteristics of the unit, such as saturation, or tonal coloration. For this, I've found the PluginAlliance Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor Class A (Red) to be very useful. Its hard to describe, but with certain sounds they just sound "better" going through it (with the right settings). Its a "red wine" thing (like a good bottle of Leonetti Reserve red wine - its quite spectacular). PluginAlliance has sales and I got this for something like $15, so if you want to try it, wait for a good sale. Its worth a gamble for $15 that you might find it useful too as a subtle coloration device more than as a level controller (although its dual compression also does subtle level compression very nicely). The Red version also has some unique controls underneath that are useful as well such as headroom, stereo width, etc. I have lots and lots of compressors, but this one stands out as being unique (as in "better") which is what you had asked about. Its my favorite new tool, YMMV.
> 
> ...


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 11, 2020)

I never really had a compressor I LOVED until I recently discovered Sonible Smart Comp, this thing is awesome. Basically, when you feel you need to compress, you hit the learn button and it comes up with a great recommendation....which you are then free to tweak (although I like what it comes up with most of the time). The cool thing is, it has taught me a lot about how to use compression. I bought it, along with Sonible Smart EQ2 for $80 (bundle price). The other compressor that made me go "holy shite!" is the PSP Audioware Master Comp, which I bought on a whim for $20 in February. I slap it on the string bus and it glues it all together so wonderfully.


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## labornvain (May 11, 2020)

josejherring said:


>



Dude, I so needed that. Friggin hilarious.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 11, 2020)

labornvain said:


> The second type of compressor is an optical compressor like the LA-2A. This is a slow compressor and has a soft attack which is really good for some things



Well, the LA-2A has to be relatively slow for it to sound so natural with such a large amount of gain reduction. But the other part of its sound is its optical circuitry, which varies the attack and release as the signal level changes. The optical sensor gets brighter and takes longer to dim as the voltage - i.e. the input level - goes up.

It's not what I'd call transparent, because you can hear it working a lot of time, it's really that it sounds natural when you hear it working.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 11, 2020)

By the way, there are lots of software compressors with auto-gain settings too! It's just that the LA-2A is a classic, and - while I'm not an audio historian - probably the first of its kind.


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## GtrString (May 11, 2020)

Compression is a big and complex subject, and you need to be really good at critical listening to be able to use it well, I think. It takes years of practice and experimentation. Companies can definitely exploit the lack of competency with users to push the next big thing every other week, when its really more skill that is needed, not another tool you havent learned. Software compressors often benefit from good gain staging, not running too hot a signal into them, so they are not as instant gratification as the analog equivalents are. So maybe thats a tip..

But, I have adopted the strategy after some ab’ing, that I use stock plugins for problem solving, and one other main company for paint brushing with compressors. IK T-Racks plugins were the ones where I could really hear what the plugins were doing. I dont know if its a resolution thing, or that I could just figure those out, but thats what Im using. Im sure other companies know what they are doing as well.

I think this link and video needs to be in this thread, for reference.

Compressor types: https://www.masteringbox.com/audio-compressors-vca-opto-fet-compression-circuit-types/

A case for stock plugins:


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## José Herring (May 12, 2020)

Alright. So, after talking to John Graham (John G) over the phone I came to realize that I was making it too complicated. I was trying to play all this flammy stuff sixteeth notes and complicated patters to figure out compression. So I brought it down to the basic simplicity. 

I got a recording of me hitting a heavy cement filled pipe on a podium that was recorded at a friend's studio through some high end gear. I just put that one hit on a loop so that I can pass it through the API 2500 and hear exactly what each button was doing. Once I did that and didn't make the material too complicated it was fairly easy to hear. Then I took into account the info on this thread. so thank you. I'm starting to work my way through it.

I surmised that compression all alone doesn't do much but in combination with my other fx the API was quite good.

I've attached a recording (24bit 44.1k) of the results. I put in each effect one at a time so that you can hear what each effect is doing. Then I ran the hit through a delay, ect. Here's the order of FX:

Single hit looped unprocessed
Cubase Channel Strip EQ
Cubase Channel Strip Standard Compressor
NI transient designer (beef up the transient and bring up the body
API 2500 (to tame that beast)
Reason Rack Ext delay
Valhalla Room
Iztope Vintage Limiter over the master to stop it from going over.

Nothing to exciting just a technical exercise. I bring in each effect one at a time so you can hear the stages. Then once all in I take them off one fx at a time.

Warning, it's loud.



P.S. if you're so inclined and want to take the first unprocessed loop at create your own compression chains, I'd love to hear them.


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## labornvain (May 12, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Compression is a big and complex subject, and you need to be really good at critical listening to be able to use it well, I think. It takes years of practice and experimentation. Companies can definitely exploit the lack of competency with users to push the next big thing every other week, when its really more skill that is needed, not another tool you havent learned. Software compressors often benefit from good gain staging, not running too hot a signal into them, so they are not as instant gratification as the analog equivalents are. So maybe thats a tip..
> 
> But, I have adopted the strategy after some ab’ing, that I use stock plugins for problem solving, and one other main company for paint brushing with compressors. IK T-Racks plugins were the ones where I could really hear what the plugins were doing. I dont know if its a resolution thing, or that I could just figure those out, but thats what Im using. Im sure other companies know what they are doing as well.
> 
> ...




I've seen that video before. It's silly. Look, a plugin is a plugin. The only difference between a "stock" plugin and a 3rd party plugin is the stock plugin was bundled with your DAW. In fact, I've known of several "stock" plugins that were actually written by 3rd parties and simply licensed to the DAW developer.

What distinguishes these plugins is what distinguishes all plugins: features. And nothing else.

Some plugins have certain features that you want, so you buy them.

There are two things about that video that really annoy me. One is he invokes the sort of "real man argument".

"You're not a real man if you don't hunt and kill your own meat." Or, "you're not a real photographer if you use digital", or before that "color". What idiocy.

Yes, we can do great mixes with stock plugins. But why would you want to? We can get better mixes by spending a few bucks and buying better plugins. Which leads me to the second thing that annoys me about that video.

He's really throwing plugin developers under the bus here, and undermining the incredible amount of hard work that goes in to making them.

Steinberg makes some decent plugins. But for every Steinberg plugin, I can find one that was developed by some independent developer who took more time and effort into their craft, and come up with something better. A better distortion algorithm. A better model of a classic EQ. Or again, better features.

Cubase comes with a decent little 1176 emulator. I could totally get by with that. But I have an Arturia 1176 that has a better distortion algorithm, dual detector mode, low and high pass filters, and a bunch of other stuff that I like.

The dual detection mode is especially appealing to me because I like to run two 1176s in each side of my stereo bus so that each channel reacts differently to the signal. It's a lovely effect. But I can't do that with the Steinberg unit. So I use the Arturia.

The guys at Arturia worked really hard to create this awesome plugin. Steinberg, being part of a global corporation, just spit out (or licensed) something cheap that would pass so they could put it in their marketing.

Will either of these 1176s make or break a mix. Of course not. But that's not the point.


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## José Herring (May 12, 2020)

Wondering if anybody would be willing to try The Rocket by Stillwell and tell me what you think. I downloaded the free trial about 10 years ago maybe longer and it's still working. The only thing that it has is that it takes about 10 seconds to do this dial sweep before you can use it. 

I swear this one sounds just as aggressive as any compressor I have and it's never talked about:

https://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugins/rocket-compressor/
What are your thoughts?


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## wst3 (May 12, 2020)

Even in the hardware realm there are dozens of choices, multiple dozens probably. The differences between any two can be startling, or subtle. It's even worse when you start to look at plugins.

I make my choices based on my experience with hardware, I think that makes some things easier, and probably complicates this somewhat.

A suggestion only, which worked for me, but may not work for anyone else, (nothing like lengthy disclaimers eh?)

Start by dividing the world into plugins that emulate hardware and those that do not. Now some of the "features" below may apply to non-emulations, all will apply to emulations.

Divide them into tube and solid state
Divide each of those groups into VCA, FET, Mu, Optical, and "other"
Divide each of those groups into feed forward and feedback

So now you will have a feedback FET solid state compressor and a feed forward optical tube compressor, for example. Give each a listen. They will NEVER sound the same, and that's probably the best way to learn about differences. As already pointed out, the material you use to audition them will make a difference, and that will depend on how you plan to use them.

It has been my experience that sample libraries do not always react to processors they way recordings do (yes, they are both recordings, I know), and neither react as a live source. Pick your poison.

Many, but not all, "types" of compressors are available as demos, so this is a good opportunity to take advantage of them.

Just for kicks, and of no real value to anyone else, my favorite compressor that emulates nothing else is Waves C series compressors. Also on that short list is Voxengo Crunchessor. There was another one, but the developer long ago closed up shop.

For emulations some of my favorites include:

the UA 1176 and LA-3 (for reasons that may be wrong I was never a fan of the LA-2).
the UA dBX 160 - this was the compressor I used the most when I was getting started, this emulation is so close to the hardware as to be scary!
The UA Manley Vari-Mu, although oddly I have yet to purchase it, I use their Fairchild emulations instead.
The Purple Audio MC77 from Plugin-Alliance, I used these a couple of times and prefer them over most 1176 editions and clones.
Millennia TCL-2 - never used the hardware, but dang this thing sounds awesome on vocals, and sometimes acoustic guitar.
Maag Audio Magnum - an odd duck, to be sure, but sometimes it is just the right touch.
This is not an exhaustive list, and while I am trying to reduce the number of plugins I have to sort through I always seem to find something else that I can use. Pity!

For example, a couple other Plugin-Alliance compressors that I use are the Townhouse Buss Compressor, which I guess is supposed to behave like the SSL buss compressor, and the Lindell 345, which is modeled after a Neve compressor. I never used a Neve compressor in real life, but I do like this one.

And finally coming back around, I did us API compressors way back when. I suspect it had more to do with my experience than anything of value, but I just never bonded with them. On the other hand I absolutely LOVE API equalizers. Go figure!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 12, 2020)

wst3 said:


> Millennia TCL-2 - never used the hardware, but dang this thing sounds awesome on vocals, and sometimes acoustic guitar.



I have a Millenia STT-1 (re-tubed, natch), which includes the same compressor - and you can run it through tube or solid-state paths for different sounds.


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## MichaelVakili (May 12, 2020)

josejherring said:


> So what am I missing? Why is one compressor consider "so much better" than the others? 'Cause right now they all sound about equally average to me.


Every compressor does the same thing but since sound isn't all the same - different gear/plugins are best suited for different scenario and all of them leave a 'sonic mark' or 'color' . Mainly we use VCA, Optical and FET ,after that we have Variable mu, all the plastic plugins with minimum sonic change and the multiband compressors. All of them are useful, but whenever someone asks me what to use and they haven't study some audio engineering - I would advice just to go for VCA - API, SSL, Dbx160 with medium attack and medium release and overcompress to hear what it does to your audio it is by far the most flexible form of compression that is suited for almost every scenario. FET /1176/ CLA has good emulation as well as TR5 - it is more aggressive plugin that is best suited for transient tracks or something that you want to stick out in the mix, heavy metal vocals, drums etc it adds lots of coloration... Optical is more into the transparent compression category usually with 3:1 ratio and it is gentle - basically good for melodic vocals, bass, legato patches and so on. It doesn't handle peaks very well. The plastic is plastic, just takes transients and tries to stay transparent, doesn't add anything of value to your sound, it is useful whenever you want just to tame peaks. Multiband - compresses certain amount of frequencies. Variable Mu - Fairchild 660 - doesn't deal well with peaks, but it adds really pleasing color - mainly it used on buses and master channel.
This is really short summary, but compressors has been one of the most talked about topic and it is really debatable with all the version of emulations what you can do with them. Music industry is changing really fast and nowadays when someone smashes the limiter and tries to destroy your ears with volume that goes to like -4LUFs ,compressors turns more and more into 'Maximizers'


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## sostenuto (May 12, 2020)

wst3 said:


> Even in the hardware realm there are dozens of choices, multiple dozens probably. The differences between any two can be startling, or subtle. It's even worse when you start to look at plugins.
> 
> I make my choices based on my experience with hardware, I think that makes some things easier, and probably complicates this somewhat. *********************************
> 
> ...




Your posts here have been instructive and helpful. Have several Plugin Alliance Comps mentioned and likely to add more, eg. Purple Audio MC77. 

What about Pulsar Audio Mu Tube .... now on sale $ JRR Shop for $49. ?? This is a Comp category I am now missing ( other than Klanghelm - MJUC Jr ).
PA - SPL IRON may be a solid choice ?


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## Anders Wall (May 12, 2020)

Dex said:


> Care to share?


About the Pultec?
I don't own the program, but have a look at this.
Just a quick show and tell using more blunt instruments.
There's no audio but if anyone want to hear pink noice I can attach it... 




Best,

Anders

Edit: Altering the Bandwidth of course changes everything, now back to compressors


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## Rctec (May 12, 2020)

View attachment 30482
View attachment 30482


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## Rctec (May 12, 2020)




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## Anders Bru (May 12, 2020)

Rctec said:


>


Lovely! What do you typically run through those? Full mix or specific tracks? And on the subject of emulations of analog gear; have you done a shootout with plugin-versions? I haven't had the pleasure of working hands-on with these, but I hear they do bring out a certain magic that's difficult to emulate with plugins.


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## José Herring (May 12, 2020)

Anders Bru said:


> Lovely! What do you typically run through those? Full mix or specific tracks? And on the subject of emulations of analog gear; have you done a shootout with plugin-versions? I haven't had the pleasure of working hands-on with these, but I hear they do bring out a certain magic that's difficult to emulate with plugins.


According to the Sweetwater video the compressor can be used in Dual mono or Stereo configuration. It's a mastering compressor and there are 3 of them so I have to assume that they could be used in mono configuration as a final stage in 5.1 surround sound mixing.


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## brenneisen (May 12, 2020)

josejherring said:


> as a final stage in 5.1 surround sound mixing.



you beat me


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## NekujaK (May 12, 2020)

Aside from obvious functional differences between FET-style and Optical-style compressors, I too, detected very few appreciable differences between most compressor plugins. But two things changed that...

First, it took a while, but I eventually learned what to listen for when evaluating a compressor. People use terms like "breathe", "glue", "pump", "squash", "grab", etc. when talking about compression behavior. I thought I knew what all these terms generally meant, but it took some studying (reading, watching good tutorial videos, experimenting on my own) to truly understand what these and other terms mean when talking about compression behavior.

That said, I must admit that about 70% of the time, it doesn't really matter what compressor I use, as long as it behaves predictably, doesn't degrade the sound, and lets me quickly dial in the result I want. But for the other 30% of cases, there are specific plugins that sound exceptionally good to me that I like to use.

Second, compressor plugins have been steadily evolving over the last 15-20 years. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, plugins generally haven't done a good job of emulating their hardware counterparts, and thus, and all those vital differences that exist in the hardware realm are pretty much lost in most software compressors. So historically, it hasn't been that easy to appreciate, or even detect, those differences when comparing plugin compressors.

But the last couple of years have seen some great leaps forward in compressor emulations, and we now have plugins that are able to articlulate those hardware differences in a much better way. Some of those include:
- Magic Death Eye by DDMF
- True Dynamics by Kazrog
- AR-1 by Kush
- El Rey by Acustica
- and a few others...

But as always, it ultimately boils down to what sounds good to you. There will always be engineering geeks who dissect, inspect, and debate the merits of different compressor plugins. IMHO, most of these differences won't have an appreciable effect on the music. And they definitely won't have an effect on the audience, who could care less what compressor was used, if they even know what a compressor is.

If you find a compressor you like, use it until you run into a situation where it doesn't sound good, then go find one that does. Keep it simple.


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## neblix (May 12, 2020)

It's really about experience. I cycle between 3 different compressors when I mix drums. Without fail I know how they will sound different on new material before instantiating them. I don't try to explain or rationalize to the finest detail why they're different, because I intuitively understand what each of them give me when I mix, and trying to explain that to someone else is futile. There is no substitute for practice and time when it comes to fine details, because telling apart compression characters takes ear training. The only way to train the ear is to... well, to train it.

EDIT: To clarify, the compressors I cycle between are all emulating different hardware units. Telling apart compressors emulating the same unit but from different plugin brands obviously gets into hair splitting territory for sure.


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## wilifordmusic (May 12, 2020)

Rctec said:


>


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## dgburns (May 12, 2020)

Rctec said:


>



But of course. Why am I not surprised.

( that’s alot of iron )


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## Anders Bru (May 13, 2020)

josejherring said:


> According to the Sweetwater video the compressor can be used in Dual mono or Stereo configuration. It's a mastering compressor and there are 3 of them so I have to assume that they could be used in mono configuration as a final stage in 5.1 surround sound mixing.





brenneisen said:


> you beat me


Awesome, thanks!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 13, 2020)

When you take a step back for a second and think about it like a normal person (which is admittedly hard!), doesn't it strike you as kind of crazy how much some of us can obsess and fetishize about devices that basically just lower the loudness of audio signals? It's like being a connaisseur of dimmer switches.


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## Prockamanisc (May 13, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> doesn't it strike you as kind of crazy how much some of us can obsess and fetishize about devices that basically just lower the loudness of audio signals?


It's not quite that simple, though. By changing the relationship of the transient to the sustain, we're fundamentally altering the timbre of the instrument.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 13, 2020)

Prockamanisc said:


> It's not quite that simple, though. By changing the relationship of the transient to the sustain, we're fundamentally altering the timbre of the instrument.



But do we really? In the more extreme application cases yes. But most of the time I'd argue that we actually don't really want to hear compressors work in that intrusive fashion. I feel that most effective compression uses are subtle improvements, and in that sense, the mythical power of the compressor is a bit overglorified IMO.

Which is of course a statement that will naturally be vehemently contested by others


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## wst3 (May 13, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> <snip>People use terms like "breathe", "glue", "pump", "squash", "grab", etc. when talking about compression behavior. <snip>


To quote the late great Mr. Zappa - "dancing about architecture" - our vocabulary is just not up to the task.

I think that my understanding of "breathe" and "pump" probably line up with most other folks, the rest? I give up<G>



NekujaK said:


> That said, I must admit that about 70% of the time, it doesn't really matter what compressor I use<snip>


I think you are probably right, assuming the compressor you are using has appropriate attack and release times - these are the two factors that seem to me to make the biggest difference. But, the range of attack and release times needed for most tracks is covered well by most compressors. The shape of the release curve can get a little particular.



NekujaK said:


> If you find a compressor you like, use it until you run into a situation where it doesn't sound good, then go find one that does. Keep it simple.


Excellent advice. And one of the reasons I am trying to thin my list of compressors. Too many choices!!


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 13, 2020)

And don’t underestimate the cheaper, dated compressors. I recently saw an Alan Meyerson video, and he used the Waves Renaissance Axx on a few epic percussion tracks for Wonderwoman. It’s like $30, and I’ve had it collecting dust for 15 years. It’s now a part of my workflow again, and so simple to use.


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 13, 2020)

No, all compressors are not the same.
Wide differences between an 1176, a LA2A, a DBX, Vari-Mu, Distressor...etc
You can use then to smooth out peaks, glue instruments together, color your track, add weight to an instrument, increase its sustain...etc
Grab a guitar and see what a compressor does while you noodle around.
It's not just hype


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## kimgaboury (May 13, 2020)

josejherring said:


> So what am I missing? Why is one compressor consider "so much better" than the others? 'Cause right now they all sound about equally average to me.



A better question would be: since we all have the same tools, why do some people get way better results? The answer is so self-evident, that all that is left is to put in the hours, and that quest is what makes it all so infinitely interesting.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 13, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> When you take a step back for a second and think about it like a normal person (which is admittedly hard!), doesn't it strike you as kind of crazy how much some of us can obsess and fetishize about devices that basically just lower the loudness of audio signals? It's like being a connaisseur of dimmer switches.



In the same sense that obsessing over paintings is like being a connoisseur of toilet paper.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 13, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> In the same sense that obsessing over paintings is like being a connoisseur of toilet paper.



Pheew, if I was more of an arts guy, I guess I'd feel pretty offended now!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 13, 2020)

Okay, I'll backpedal a little - *clean* toilet paper.


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## ceemusic (May 13, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> ... err, but I am a connoisseur of dimmer switches.
> 
> This morning APD has Schulz Audio - *Red* *Verb* *2  *@ $29.99 (vs $199.99).  Not familiar with this one. Can Users add comments to place with relevant competitors ?


Wrong thread for this compressor discussion but you could download the demo at his website. Haven't used it myself.


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## Consona (May 13, 2020)

All the fuss about compression is, when you know how to use it, you can make something like this:


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 13, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Okay, I'll backpedal a little - *clean* toilet paper.



That's more like it!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 13, 2020)

poetd said:


> Or you can turn it into a sonic weapon:




Listening to both of these makes me wanna delete anything that does any kind of compression forever.


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## Consona (May 13, 2020)

BvS drums is an art form of its own. 



josejherring said:


> They all sound about the same and don't do much.
> 
> So walk me through it. I too on occasion want that slamming drum sound but failing to get it with a compressor. Marginally better at making the synths more full, but just marginally. Did get somewhere by putting the EQ before the compressor but again, meh.


It all takes practise... like everything else, I guess? I remember I demoed some compressors some time ago, tried them, they felt like any other compressor I had used. Some years of mixing into the future and not a long time ago, I bought those plugins, find them totally great, rather irreplaceable, they can do very different things than what my DAW plugins can, and I'm still learning so many things using them.

Not to mention, you write "marginal this, marginal that"... do something like parallel compression, would be kinda weird if that sounded just "marginally different". Try different plugin chains, etc., you can make so many flavours of sounds with EQ, compression and distortion, on various settings and various places in the chain.


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## sostenuto (May 13, 2020)

ceemusic said:


> Wrong thread ...........



Meant to comment '_here_' on @ NekujaK mention of Kazrog - True Dynamics. 
White Sea Studio YT review raised awareness ..... Both _ Presto 41A / ITA LA1B tube compressors @ $80. One of 'newer' emulations; still sorting subtleties ..... Solid Preset list to work from.


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## labornvain (May 13, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> And they [compressors] definitely won't have an effect on the audience,


I disagree. A properly compressed track will definitely sound better to the audience. They just won't know why.

People, even audio engineers, prefer loudness. And squashing the dynamic range effectively allows the track to sound louder without clipping.

This is especially true in noisy listening environments. And even more especially true in cars.

The so-called loudness war, before it evolved into borderline insanity, really originated with the desire to make records sound good on the radio in noisy cars.

The techniques for reducing the crest factor in getting the RMS as loud as possible involves far more than just slapping a limiter on the master bus. It involves compressing each track some degree and then putting a limiter on the master bus. And then sending it off to the mastering engineer so they can compress it even more.

And then the radio station compresses it again!

For those of us who enjoy the power of wide dynamic range, the film score is probably the last refuge.

But for most people, louder just sounds better.


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## Eduardo Macedo (May 13, 2020)

josejherring said:


> P.S. if you're so inclined and want to take the first unprocessed loop at create your own compression chains, I'd love to hear them.



Ok. I did something.


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## NekujaK (May 13, 2020)

labornvain said:


> I disagree. A properly compressed track will definitely sound better to the audience. They just won't know why.


Totally agree. I wasn't referring to compression technique, but to the minute differences that technies often quibble over when comparing compressors.

A properly compressed track can be achieved with just about any reasonably good compressor, provided the engineer knows what he or she is doing. And the characteristic differences between using a $500 compressor or a $29 compressor often don't make a bit of difference to the listening audience.

It's less about the compressor and more about the person who manipulates it.


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## José Herring (May 13, 2020)

I think my problem is that I'm not going for a "properly" compressed track. I've had great success in putting some subtle compression to glue a mix. My ears are tuned to that. I've not had great success in applying some aggressive techniques to get drums slap happy and slamming or the many ways in which compression is used to sound good but "cutting edge". So, I guess my main problem is that each compressor I try gives me that nice good boy compression but then totally falls on its ass when I push it beyond its comfort zone.

I am making some progress though. My big realization is that you have to be all in. It can't be just find a compressor and make it work, you have to set up your drums to work with the compressor. Namely the recording has to be right, if sampled you have to use the ADSR to tighten up the decay and releases. ect, ect.... apply compression in stages, a little off the top so that when it hits the final compressor and the limiter it's not so out of control that you actually can apply some heavy compression. It's a whole pain the ass technique that really does take A LOT of practice. I've been at it for 2 days and just scratch the surface of a Junkie XL or HZ drum track. JEZZUSS!!!!

And to top it all off, I've had to listen to Youtube Videos to properly hear what ms means as far as sound is concerned. Man, that took some ear training.

I think if I had to study music all over again in school, I'd study 1 year of actual music and get a master's degree in audio engineering because I've spent way too much of my adult life futzing with gadgets than I have staring at paper and writing dots. WAY MORE TIME!!!!

Oh, not to mention the fact that you have to change your writing so that it's not so complicated that the compressor can actually do its job.


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## MartinH. (May 13, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I think my problem is that I'm not going for a "properly" compressed track. I've had great success in putting some subtle compression to glue a mix. My ears are tuned to that. I've not had great success in applying some aggressive techniques to get drums slap happy and slamming or the many ways in which compression is used to sound good but "cutting edge". So, I guess my main problem is that each compressor I try gives me that nice good boy compression but then totally falls on its ass when I push it beyond its comfort zone.
> 
> I am making some progress though. My big realization is that you have to be all in. It can't be just find a compressor and make it work, you have to set up your drums to work with the compressor. Namely the recording has to be right, if sampled you have to use the ADSR to tighten up the decay and releases. ect, ect.... apply compression in stages, a little off the top so that when it hits the final compressor and the limiter it's not so out of control that you actually can apply some heavy compression. It's a whole pain the ass technique that really does take A LOT of practice. I've been at it for 2 days and just scratch the surface of a Junkie XL or HZ drum track. JEZZUSS!!!!
> 
> ...



Compressors were probably the type of plugin that I had the hardest time with wrapping my head around them. This video helped me a lot. It's probably too basic for you, but maybe it's of use to someone else reading this thread: 




Not sure if it was in this video, but it was eye opening for me to see a (parallel?) compressor with slow attack being used to emphasize transients on a drum track. It opened my mind to thinking more creatively about these kinds of effects and for example I found a good use for using a parallel gate on a metal guitar DI signal to make it a little tighter without killing all the sustain.


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## José Herring (May 13, 2020)

At the risk of embarrassing myself I've put together brief demo again.

This time I've got 8 individual files that show a kind of progression in thinking. Some came out better than others in spite of the fact that at times only one thing was changed and that change had nothing to do with adjusting the compression in any way. Which really showed me how program dependent compression really is.

For the big low drums I'm going for the brick style effect. Lowering the transients and bringing up the body of the drum.

For the faster drum I'm going for the more "pecky" stacc style. Letting the attach go through while creating room for the attack by compressing the body of the drum.

No parallel compression used yet. I did parallel compression for about a year and didn't really get along with it too much. But, I may just experiment with it again.


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## kimgaboury (May 13, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I've been at it for 2 days and just scratch the surface of a Junkie XL or HZ drum track. JEZZUSS!!!!



They’ve been at it for 30+ years. Give yourself time, experiment, don’t let marketing/consumer culture trick you into believing that you can skip steps if you use the “right” gear.


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## José Herring (May 13, 2020)

kimgaboury said:


> They’ve been at it for 30+ years. Give yourself time, experiment, don’t let marketing/consumer culture trick you into believing that you can skip steps if you use the “right” gear.


Amen. 

Certainly is harder than buy the API compressor to make your drums slammin'.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 13, 2020)

For orchestral mixbus, honestly, I'd stick with Kotelnikov GE or, if you're feeling advanced, Unisum (for a lot more $). If you want good "tone" but not something that can compress heavily, check out something like Kush AR-1 or even MJUC. Some libraries may already be compressed, so compressing them further at a track level could make them bland.

More traditional scores, I wouldn't compress more than .5 db, if any at all. For hybrid movie trailer stuff, compress your heart out.

Compressing music removes dynamics.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> For orchestral mixbus, honestly, I'd stick with Kotelnikov GE or, if you're feeling advanced, Unisum (for a lot more $). If you want good "tone" but not something that can compress heavily, check out something like Kush AR-1 or even MJUC. Some libraries may already be compressed, so compressing them further at a track level could make them bland.
> 
> More traditional scores, I wouldn't compress more than .5 db, if any at all. For hybrid movie trailer stuff, compress your heart out.
> 
> Compressing music removes dynamics.


Funny that you mentioned that Kotelnikov GE. I downloaded the free verions of TDR compressor maybe 10 years ago. I loved it as a mix buss glue. I used it all the time. I think I even got the paid one as well. But, since it was only $50 I convinced myself that it wasn't any good. I've since gotten Izotope mastering plugins and have had nothing but difficulty. I mean Izotope is good but it's hard as hell to use and for me no fun. I actually don't even really like that much their compressor or at least I'm not using it well. TDR was so easy to use and so effective. Funny how pricing pays an role in decision making. TDR was perfectly fine even the freebee sounded great but I doubted it because it wasn't expensive. 

I've gone ahead now downloaded Ktolnikov freebee and will probably get the GE soon too. Thx for reminding me.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 14, 2020)

I bought Kotelnikov GE earlier this year. I tried it years ago and also dismissed it. I boutght several pricey software compressors since them, and now I'm using them less and less, and KGE more and more, at least on the mixbus. Unisum is possibly more amazing, but a lot more technical than KGE - if you're really into mix/master engineering, then Unisum is worth demoing (list is $199).

Paying for the GE version is worth every penny, I think. Here's a great video walkthrough


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## Henu (May 14, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Certainly is harder than buy the API compressor to make your drums slammin'



Ironically enough, I just glued today my drum bus on a mix with the Waves API.  That being said, it's one of their best prducts for rock/metal drums if you ask me!


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## Consona (May 14, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I think my problem is that I'm not going for a "properly" compressed track. I've had great success in putting some subtle compression to glue a mix. My ears are tuned to that. I've not had great success in applying some aggressive techniques to get drums slap happy and slamming or the many ways in which compression is used to sound good but "cutting edge". So, I guess my main problem is that each compressor I try gives me that nice good boy compression but then totally falls on its ass when I push it beyond its comfort zone.
> 
> I am making some progress though. My big realization is that you have to be all in. It can't be just find a compressor and make it work, you have to set up your drums to work with the compressor. Namely the recording has to be right, if sampled you have to use the ADSR to tighten up the decay and releases. ect, ect.... apply compression in stages, a little off the top so that when it hits the final compressor and the limiter it's not so out of control that you actually can apply some heavy compression. It's a whole pain the ass technique that really does take A LOT of practice. I've been at it for 2 days and just scratch the surface of a Junkie XL or HZ drum track. JEZZUSS!!!!
> 
> ...


Yea, please, don't simplify your writing just because it would make the compression sound better. Fads pass, great music stays.

Plus I think through some clever arrangement you can make the compression do what you want it to do without compromising your composition.

Also don't forget things like transient shaping and multiband compression are probably a part of that Alan Meyerson Batman v Superman sound. I really like his mixing on Man of Steel, those drums are not that behemoth of a sound the BvS drums are, they fell way more natural and nuanced, yet still so precisely mixed and hyped up.


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## Paul Cardon (May 14, 2020)

There's a lot that can go into how one compressor might act differently compared to another, such as obvious parameters like threshold, attack, release, knee, etc., but the way that the compressor actually executes those processes can be super different. The shape of the curve as it attacks and releases, the linearity or lack thereof that it pushes down the further it goes over the threshold, the amount the compressor "holds" onto a unique signal over time (hysteresis), and saturation qualities.

There's a few moments in this video where they talk about switching between the different "Style"s included in Pro-C 2, and these are great examples of the ways different compressors with all the same settings can show their unique colors:


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## vitocorleone123 (May 14, 2020)

C2 is a good track compressor (I have it), though supposedly DMGaudio’s is even better.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2020)

Okay, if all else fails, I broke down and just read the manual for the API. I figured out the reason why I wasn't getting good results. It applies and filter to the RMS so that the thing doesn't compress equally. I mean it does apply compression equally if you set it that way but that setting makes it less than a stellar compressor. So I was finally able to use it in a good way and found out what makes it a good drum buss compressor, the fact that it doesn't compress high and low frequencies equally. So in the "loud" setting it compresses the bass a lot but doesn't chop the highs. 

My final noodlings for this thread. Thx for the help.

Oh, this example to first part has the API then half way through I turn off the API so that you can hear the difference.


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## José Herring (May 15, 2020)

Okay I know I said last one but this one really is the last one I'm going to post. 

I realized that the reason for the "Loud" mode was to compress the bass so that you could slam the bass hard and get a weightier drum. Also, I'm starting to realize that what I'm hearing are drums mixed with other drums with lots of attack and lost of bass.

So it is coming along. For the first time I feel like I'm about 50% there on processed drums. Lots of ideas on how to get all the way there too. Better more natural samples with lots of expression and synthetic drums blended in there and really glued together with compression, EQ and a little verb.


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## labornvain (May 15, 2020)

@Paul Cardon mentioned the Fabfilter Pro C 2 up above. This is probably the best compressor plugin made, or at least in the top three.

But I thought of it for you @josejherring because of a little trick that it does.

That is that it allows you to "solo up" just the signal that is being compressed. If you really want to laser focus on what a compressor does and how the controls effect that process, you probably can't find a better way to do that than engaging this trick on the Pro C 2.

Said trick is actually called, I think, Listen Mode. And you activate it by pushing a little button with headphones on it.

It's an extremely cool feature for anyone, but especially cool for people wanting to explore the minutiae of compression.

If you don't already own the Pro C 2, you can download a demo I think. I highly recommend it.


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## Dietz (May 15, 2020)

labornvain said:


> A properly compressed track will definitely sound better to the audience. They just won't know why.


^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!


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## sostenuto (May 15, 2020)

labornvain said:


> @Paul Cardon mentioned the Fabfilter Pro C 2 up above. This is probably the best compressor plugin made, or at least in the top three.
> 
> But I thought of it for you @josejherring because of a little trick that it does.
> 
> ...



FF virgin so far, but You convinced to try Pro C2 Demo, and 'trick' .....

OK, installed, little 'red' headphones on ..... now some focused time !


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## neblix (May 21, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> When you take a step back for a second and think about it like a normal person (which is admittedly hard!), doesn't it strike you as kind of crazy how much some of us can obsess and fetishize about devices that basically just lower the loudness of audio signals? It's like being a connaisseur of dimmer switches.



Compressors compress dynamic range, making audio signals louder by every scientific and perceptual definition of loudness.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 22, 2020)

neblix said:


> Compressors compress dynamic range, making audio signals louder by every scientific and perceptual definition of loudness.



Only with makeup gain, haha.


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## wst3 (May 22, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> In the same sense that obsessing over paintings is like being a connoisseur of toilet paper.


you should be a writer - you have a way with words


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## wst3 (May 22, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Only with makeup gain, haha.


Yeah, and awful lot of people miss that detail!


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## Consona (May 28, 2020)

Must post another ridiculously insane compression + distortion Alan Meyerson thing here:




I bet it's like bunch of Soundtoys stuff on max settings or something.  Would love to see how the mix buss and all the parallel channels look like.


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## GtrString (May 28, 2020)

Compressors, well we like everything small don't we? Smaller waveforms are easier to carry around


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 28, 2020)

Consona said:


> Must post another ridiculously insane compression + distortion Alan Meyerson thing here:



"Ridiculous" is the right word here!


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## wst3 (May 28, 2020)

I still like hardware compressors... guilty pleasure??

A good friend, and someone that I trust completely on all matters audio, just picked up a pair of the Klark Teknik 1176 clones. He already has a pair of Urei 1176s and a pair of the Warm Audio clones.

I was surprised by his "review" - to his ears the KT clones are akin to what he always wanted the Urei 1176 to be - a fast, transparent compressor/limiter. According to him there are virtually no artifacts.

In contrast, both the Urei and the Warm Audio compressors add character, or personality, or whatever you want to call it.

Sometimes you want character - that girth or sheen or whatever word you choose to describe the pleasing artifacts of audio processing. And sometimes you don't.

I am now trying to convince him to loan me the KT pair, and the experiment I want to try is running them in front of, or behind, my LA-4s to see if I can get some character from the LA-4s, and compression from the KTs - when I want character. But mostly I just want to hear what KT thinks a FET based compressor/limiter should sound like.

KT was once a very well respected developer of audio hardware. I've heard mixed reviews of the hardware that resulted from their sale to Behringer. This is, in fact, the first entirely positive report I've heard. So I am really curious.


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## robgb (Jun 2, 2020)

There are a number of things you can use a compressor for. For example, you might want to duck reverb so that your clarinet stands out a little more in the mix and doesn't get lost in the wash of the verb. You put a compressor on your reverb send, set the comp to side chain, feed your clarinet to the reverb AND create a separate send to the side chained compressor and you find that the reverb ducks away a bit while the clarinet is playing. It's a subtle difference, but you achieve more clarity this way.


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## Daniel (Jun 3, 2020)

This thread is very useful to me during WFH. Is LA-2A and/or LA-76 is the best for vocals? Or other compressor super easy to use? 
About 1 month and still watching youtube about compressor. Really hard to understand about compressor!
Too bad my Waves Central crash and still on the support, so I am using Softube demo compressor Tube-Tech compressor (and EQ) and I like it, but a quite expensive than Waves.


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## jononotbono (Jun 28, 2020)

This is quite nice. A 5.1 Bus Compressor made out of API 2500s. Modded by Paul Wolff. I think the studio is going to add another 5 of them so it will be Re-modded into an Atmos Bus Compressor.


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## José Herring (Jun 28, 2020)

This thread went on without me. Catching up now.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jun 29, 2020)

As far as videos, I think I learned the most (it’s been a while) from “Mixing with Compression” by Matthew Weiss, and maybe(?) “Sessions - Compression” by Dance Music Production. Also the Fabfilter videos help, too. Oh - the Bobby Owsinski videos are good, too.

I highly recommend spending money to improve your mixing skills if you're starting to do more mixing for the first time(s). Videos are the best, but there's 3+ or so books that are quite good, too. Maybe "Mixing Audio", "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook", and either "Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio" (if you qualify as one rather than a large studio) or something slightly different like "The Art of Mixing".

Caveat: I'm no pro, but I'm an enthusiastic amateur.


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