# How do you write "epic" percussion?



## Mike Fox (Jun 19, 2017)

I've never really written "epic" percussion for any of my tracks, but I am now curious about the process. Do you compose an orchestral piece of music first, and then layer the percussion tracks down, or do you ever come up with a percussion piece first, and then write over that? Is there a standard as to how this is done? Also, do you use a drum pad, or just your keyboard?


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## jononotbono (Jun 19, 2017)

Personally, I always sort the percussion out last. I even do this when writing rock music. I typically come up with an idea, find the tempo, play to a kick drum so no beat dictates what I write and usually hear what kind of beat the music needs. With massive drum hits and percussion he music usually tells me what accents need drum hits but I am no expert in "Epic" drum programming. I just know that unless I leave it to last, the music usually becomes a mess.

I usually play hits in with a keyboard, actually playing with a Seaboard Rise at the minute which is fantastic for percussion and drum performance due to the silicone keywaves. I sometimes use a VKit and use drum sticks to play percussion in, but then sometimes I just use a mouse and draw certain hits in. Really depends on the music and the context. I think it's a wise Idea to Quantise big hits, or at least line the transients up because this will avoid phasing problems and any muddiness in the mix. Avoiding Reverb on them is also something I try and stick to. And layererig drum hits to get a desired sound always seems best for me. Layering in threes: High (the crack), Mid, Sub. Of course there are no "rules" and I'm hardly an authority on his kind of thing but I'm getting better and these are some of the things I do regarding big drum hits and Perc


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## afterlight82 (Jun 19, 2017)

Start bottom to top. Increase in complexity and quantizing slop as you go up. (Get a percussionist to play just downbeats, they'll be bang on, more complex parts, that's where groove and feel come in). Layering is key. At the end of the day, you orchestrate it much the way you'd do strings. Double bass tends to be simpler, underpinning - stuff on top more complex. Same with perc. You can't physically play super fast 16th note rhythms that effectively on a massive bass drum or the biggest of taikos.

Also, try not to use eq or compression to start out. Lots of people try parallel compression when actually it's just...not great percussion programming yet. And it sounds sort of epic. Then you play it on big speakers and it sounds like shite. And people wonder why it doesn't translate. If you're missing bottom end turn up the lower perc or look for different sounding samples, or layer soft hits with hard. (works great with bass drum...eg HZ Perc - the Alan booms, stereo mix, the soft mallet ones (low E and F) bottom velocity, layered with any hard bass drum hit and balanced/time aligned...magic.

Time align your transients for impact, spread for ensemble size. Better still do both as and when needed. Audio much easier to deal with once the programming is good. Spend ages on the velocities. Velocities in perc programming are everything. You can tightly quantize and still make it sound 100% musical with good velocity programming.

Use lower velocities than you might expect with many instruments...drums sound bigger when they are hit less hard, lots of "epic" stuff out there is just fizzy 3k-4k mess with no bottom end.

REVERB - what algorithm you use is incredibly important. Avoid halls. Use chambers. R2's Medium Chamber is bloody great on perc and is on many a film score recently. Liquidsonics Bricasti chambers similarly. 2.4 secs ish, then dial it up if you really need more. Libraries with mic positions help a lot. Print to audio and time align the transients, it might help (especially if the transient becomes muddy from adding the extra mic position in).

Chambers are usually nice even tails, and you often have the pre-delay tiny or off because you don't want that immediate slap echo thing muddying things up. If the epic perc is recorded in a room turn off the ERs almost altogether on most reverbs. Won't help.

Ultimately most processing will hurt the transient, so try and get what you want by sound selection, layering, midi automation first. Then and only then hit the plugins.


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## dannymc (Jun 20, 2017)

afterlight82 said:


> Start bottom to top. Increase in complexity and quantizing slop as you go up. (Get a percussionist to play just downbeats, they'll be bang on, more complex parts, that's where groove and feel come in). Layering is key. At the end of the day, you orchestrate it much the way you'd do strings. Double bass tends to be simpler, underpinning - stuff on top more complex. Same with perc. You can't physically play super fast 16th note rhythms that effectively on a massive bass drum or the biggest of taikos.
> 
> Also, try not to use eq or compression to start out. Lots of people try parallel compression when actually it's just...not great percussion programming yet. And it sounds sort of epic. Then you play it on big speakers and it sounds like shite. And people wonder why it doesn't translate. If you're missing bottom end turn up the lower perc or look for different sounding samples, or layer soft hits with hard. (works great with bass drum...eg HZ Perc - the Alan booms, stereo mix, the soft mallet ones (low E and F) bottom velocity, layered with any hard bass drum hit and balanced/time aligned...magic.
> 
> ...



great post. 

Danny


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## Daniel James (Jun 20, 2017)

BoomdadaBoomdaBAH-BAH-BAH

-DJ


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## mcalis (Jun 20, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> BoomdadaBoomdaBAH-BAH-BAH
> 
> -DJ


Don't you mean "boom boom boom?"



Spoiler: boom boom boom


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## Daniel James (Jun 20, 2017)

mcalis said:


> Don't you mean "boom boom boom?"
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: boom boom boom




Best version of that track....with good ol fashion drunk brits. Love it!




Spoiler: boom boom boom








-DJ


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## mcalis (Jun 20, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Best version of that track....with good ol fashion drunk brits. Love it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Isn't "drunk Brits" a redundant statement?


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## MarcusD (Jun 20, 2017)

What I'm about to tell you is pretty much a well-kept secret to achieving GODZILLA like epic percussion...

Step 1 - Arm ALL of the percussion tracks.
Step 2 - Turn OFF the click track/auto quantize (you need to feel the music)
Step 3 - Hit Play.
Step 4 - Gracefully smash your head into the keyboard, over and over and over again. Feel the pulse of the music, feel the black and white keys dance across your forehead, with every bar build tension, build emotion, inject your soul into every thrust until you're ready to climax! THEN, Let forth a flurry of MASTERFUL headbutts, let the drool fly!! WORK THROUGH the PAIN and unleash the ultimate crescendo!!
Step 5 - Repeat steps 3 and 4, but this time Hit Record.

I think I've drunk too much coffee.


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## John Busby (Jun 20, 2017)

MarcusD said:


> I think I've drunk too much coffee.


You sure it's coffee?


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## MarcusD (Jun 20, 2017)

johnbusbymusic said:


> You sure it's coffee?



Not entirely sure, was in the reduced section at Aldi.


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## gsilbers (Jun 20, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> I've never really written "epic" percussion for any of my tracks, but I am now curious about the process. Do you compose an orchestral piece of music first, and then layer the percussion tracks down, or do you ever come up with a percussion piece first, and then write over that? Is there a standard as to how this is done? Also, do you use a drum pad, or just your keyboard?



there are some great posts here. 

you can also use some of the epic perc loops in damage or dm307 or master sessions as a base. write over that and then replace it with your own perc playing with individual samples. 
this might help on get your track going... or get stuck with the same rhythm.


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## Daniel Petras (Jun 20, 2017)

MarcusD said:


> Step 1 - Arm ALL of the percussion tracks.
> Step 2 - Turn OFF the click track/auto quantize (you need to feel the music)
> Step 3 - Hit Play.
> Step 4 - Gracefully smash your head into the keyboard, over and over and over again. Feel the pulse of the music, feel the black and white keys dance across your forehead, with every bar build tension, build emotion, inject your soul into every thrust until you're ready to climax! THEN, Let forth a flurry of MASTERFUL headbutts, let the drool fly!! WORK THROUGH the PAIN and unleash the ultimate crescendo!!
> Step 5 - Repeat steps 3 and 4, but this time Hit Record.



Step 6 - quantize everything and then delete random midi notes until it's not too muddy or busy. I swear to god you can come up with something that sounds next generation.


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## MarcusD (Jun 20, 2017)

Joking aside, layering a good "hard hitting" library with a more natural sounding library works nicely.

* Heavyocity
- DM307
- Master Ensemble
- Master Ethnic Drums
- Damage

* Audio Imperia
- Decimator
- Tales From The Multiverse

* Spitfire Audio
- HZ01

* Cinesamples
- CinePerc
- Deep Perc Beds 1 & 2


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## gsilbers (Jun 20, 2017)

MarcusD said:


> Joking aside, layering a good "hard hitting" library with a more natural sounding library works nicely.
> 
> * Heavyocity
> - DM307
> ...




I am missing the HZ01 and have the other ones.. do you think I need it or have enough with the others?
that HZ01 is pricey so im on the fence


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## MarcusD (Jun 20, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> I am missing the HZ01 and have the other ones.. do you think I need it or have enough with the others?
> that HZ01 is pricey so im on the fence



From what I've heard it's worth buying just for the recordings by Geoff Foster. But I can't bring myself to spend that much on a library, I personally use Heavyocity, Audio Imperia, 8DIO, SoundIron and SSD Drums. But if you have most of what I listed, then there's no real need to get it I guess.


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## John Busby (Jun 20, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> HZ01 is pricey so im on the fence


i'm waiting for another spitfire sale to take the sting off the price
i've been wanting this library for a couple years now
but - in the meantime - i have been having a blast with 8DIO's Epic series layered with Storm Drum and Action Strikes and a little Damage here and there


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## Smikes77 (Jun 20, 2017)

I do the same as @jononotbono 

Leave the percussion til last. It'll take up way too much space in your mix otherwise. Pretty sure Mr Zimmer does this too.


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## Mike Fox (Jun 20, 2017)

Great posts everyone. I greatly appreciate all the input. Lots of things here I never thought about doing.

Last night I started writing a couple of things using Damage and APE elements, and seem to be getting pretty good results as these libs seem to go well with eachother.

As a side note, is it worth upgrading to the full version of APE, or should I put that money into HZ01 instead? I love how both Damage and APE cut right through the mix. Does HZ01 cut just as well?


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## jononotbono (Jun 20, 2017)

johnbusbymusic said:


> i'm waiting for another spitfire sale to take the sting off the price
> i've been wanting this library for a couple years now
> but - in the meantime - i have been having a blast with 8DIO's Epic series layered with Storm Drum and Action Strikes and a little Damage here and there



It is worth every penny. I was hesitant because of price but it's truly wonderful. You don't even think about the price once you start using it.


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## Daniel Petras (Jun 20, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> Does HZ01 cut just as well?


I don't think I would say it does cuts through like damage does. Damage is more balls the wall.

edit: balls to the wall.


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## jononotbono (Jun 20, 2017)

Damage and HZ01 are only similar in the fact they are both percussion libraries. Other than this, they are nothing alike. Two different animals and I love and use both. Of course HZ01 will "cut through" a mix. If the user can't make them cut through a mix, then they probably need to revisit their mixing abilities.


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## Daniel James (Jun 20, 2017)

mcalis said:


> Isn't "drunk Brits" a redundant statement?



Touché

-DJ


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jun 20, 2017)

MarcusD said:


> From what I've heard it's worth buying just for the recordings by Geoff Foster. But I can't bring myself to spend that much on a library, I personally use Heavyocity, Audio Imperia, 8DIO, SoundIron and SSD Drums. But if you have most of what I listed, then there's no real need to get it I guess.


It is excellent. If you need big bottom end in your drums it is outstanding. It is not cheap. It is deep, and the mix options take it to another level. My regular Cinesamples orchestral percussion is very "standard", and this library does the bigger than life stuff so well. it is a very fun library. The taiko... the surdu... put a grin on my face every time. Watch your monitor gain! These are BIG drums!!!


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## jononotbono (Jun 20, 2017)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> It is excellent. If you need big bottom end in your drums it is outstanding. It is not cheap. It is deep, and the mix options take it to another level. My regular Cinesamples orchestral percussion is very "standard", and this library does the bigger than life stuff so well. it is a very fun library. The taiko... the surdu... put a grin on my face every time. Watch your monitor gain! These are BIG drums!!!



Yeah, there is nothing like it. Every time I use it I smile as it's so good. And the different mixes just go to show how versatile it is.


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## mikehamm123 (Jul 4, 2017)

I've had good luck with these loops, the James Cameron-style epic Taiko-style drums:

https://primeloops.com/cinematic-impacts-vol-2.html

Speaking of Taiko drums, here is a free Kontakt library:

https://www.strezov-sampling.com/products/view/THUNDER X3M Taiko Freebie.html


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