# LEGATO : Let's have a general discussion about it



## muziksculp (Nov 22, 2021)

Hi,

Yes, LEGATO, is a big, and quite important topic when it comes to sample libraries. I thought this thread is a place to discuss Legato in general, and comment about it, provide feedback, examples, and everything related to it. It would serve as a very useful resource for both users, and developers.

Please Note that the Poll of the older thread has been deleted, and the thread is closed, but still available if you wish to read the older posts. 

So, I hope this fresh thread will be a good means to share our thoughts, experiences, and wishes from our fellow developers who are always working hard to please us, and make us happy using their libraries.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## jadedsean (Nov 22, 2021)

To get the ball rolling i would suggest that it would be be helpful to discuss different types of legato and their uses. Serving as useful resource I would imagine this may help a lot of newbies too.


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## dcoscina (Nov 22, 2021)

I have been delving back into my VSL SE edition libraries and some of their synchronized SE editions and I'm amazing at how agile their legatos are. They really stand up, especially in the woodwinds dept. the Dimension Synchronized brass is also amazing. Not sure what happened with the new Synchron stage stuff and whether the tails present a problem... but they don't have the same lovely slur sound that the classic series has


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## mekosmowski (Nov 22, 2021)

jadedsean said:


> To get the ball rolling i would suggest that it would be be helpful to discuss different types of legato and their uses. Serving as useful resource I would imagine this may help a lot of newbies too.


There's different types of legato? It's not just the slur line?

Yes, please educate this newbie!


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## AMBi (Nov 22, 2021)

Polyphonic legato is one of the most useful ideas to ever exist and I wish more devs implemented it


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## MusicIstheBest (Nov 22, 2021)

After having listened to many sample demos, i put on some other music and zoned out. Later, half aware, i noted things like "that violin transition was questionable", and "those wind transitions are a little choppy". Then i remembered this was the Star Wars Force Awakens soundtrack lol. Point is, maybe sometimes our expectations of legato in samples are a little unrealistic, so be sure to keep listening to real performances lol.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 22, 2021)

mekosmowski said:


> There's different types of legato? It's not just the slur line?
> 
> Yes, please educate this newbie!


In sample library lingo, "legato" just refers to any recorded transition between two notes. Whether it's a slur, a rebow, or a portamento, it's all under the umbrella of "true legato sampling". It's confusing to a lot of people because it's not the "correct" meaning of the word, but it's how it is with samples.


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## dhmusic (Nov 22, 2021)

MusicIstheBest said:


> Point is, maybe sometimes our expectations of legato in samples are a little unrealistic, so be sure to keep listening to real performances lol.


I'd agree with this regarding "playable legato". Since some devs lock their samples away they make it really difficult to create a lifelike performance if that's what you're going for.

With 8dio and quite a few others though they give you access to the full transition in isolation which I think is pretty vital. Of course this comes at an absolutely massive time cost so - depending on your goals - you have to weigh whether or not that tradeoff is justified.



MusicIstheBest said:


> After having listened to many sample demos, i put on some other music and zoned out. Later, half aware, i noted things like "that violin transition was questionable", and "those wind transitions are a little choppy". Then i remembered this was the Star Wars Force Awakens soundtrack lol.



I could totally see our tastes being shaped by the tools we're using. I wonder if that makes it's way back into the live performances in Hollywood recordings?


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## mekosmowski (Nov 22, 2021)

Portamento is how a trombone would do glissando, right?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 22, 2021)

IMO, we are spoiled for choices in this day and age, we take this technology for granted...especially legato. I got along great just using EastWest Gold XP for years (tons of productions), and there was zero legato. To the average "Joe", they simply don't know the difference. Most VI legatos I've heard are pure magic, and most are really good. I'm not sure what feedback I would personally give to a developer regarding this, as each one has a unique sound and character.


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## Werty (Nov 23, 2021)

A big subject is the difference between legato for a single instrument (one violin, next note cannot start before the end of the previous note) and legato for more instruments (next note can start before the end of the previous note).


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 23, 2021)

mekosmowski said:


> Portamento is how a trombone would do glissando, right?


Yes, but glissando and legato are not always the same for a slide trombone, as legatos can be tongued while playing glissandos the player won't use a tongue.


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## Zedcars (Nov 23, 2021)

You know what I hate about the VSL legatos (and this is purely practical) is the fact that the very first note has to be assigned a non legato long. If you assign a legato to the first note of the group it has a weird noise at the start like it’s playing the note transition sample from the previously played note. Other companies don’t do it this way do they?


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## I like music (Nov 23, 2021)

Personally, a good place to start would be to hear _real_ examples of instruments playing transitions in different ways (rebow, fingered, port, whatever). I think if someone could share any videos or audio examples of different techniques at the _real_ instrument level, it would give us all a good grounding in how to apply this knowledge to what we hear in sample-land.

Because to be honest, I'm a bit clueless. I actually don't know how a trumpet player might do different transitions. In fact, only a couple of days ago I saw on another thread, someone commenting on how a certain interval should/couldn't have been mocked up the way it was, because of the valves (or something).

So I think this is a good bit of knowledge to have.


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## Pier-V (Nov 23, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> You know what I hate about the VSL legatos (and this is purely practical) is the fact that the very first note has to be assigned a non legato long. If you assign a legato to the first note of the group it has a weird noise at the start like it’s playing the note transition sample from the previously played note. Other companies don’t do it this way do they?


I can only reply for woodwinds and french horns since I don't own strings or other brass from that company. It probably has to do with the fact that VSL uses a different approach to some of the other companies when sampling and programming legatos (especially when sampling legato for ensembles). This is how it's done most of the times when you connect two different notes:

Sample sustain - smooth crossfading to a brief transition sample (usually less than a second) - smooth crossfading again to the sustain of target note

VSL samples the whole target note instead, i.e. both the transition and the sustain in the same sample, so there's just one crossfading in action and that crossfading is generally more aggressive, especially in samples from the silent stage since the short room tail allows that. This has pros and cons - the biggest risk is *formant inconsistency* between the sustain samples and the target note. By the way, that also explains why for example an oboe legato is so difficult to replicate: the instrument has has a very peculiar and constantly evolving timbre, so you have to choose between clean notes, but with the "Frankenstein effect", and unavoidable phasing issues during the crossfading part.


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> So I think this is a good bit of knowledge to have.



I'm a trumpet/flügelhorn player with 30 years in playing and about 10 in teaching brass, so if you want to know anything about brass techniques, let me know. I also have a strong opinion on how to mimick brass techniques with libraries, although my knowledge of different libraries is far less than playing the actual instrument.


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## muk (Nov 23, 2021)

It's puzzling for me that no other developers have taken the Cinematic Studio approach of sampling three different lenghts of legato. To my ears that's the best approach we have. Musicians play countless nuances, they adjust the length and how pronounced a transition is depending on musical context. Apart from Cinematic Studio Series, we only have legato on or off. Would love to see more developers givibg us more variations.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 23, 2021)

muk said:


> It's puzzling for me that no other developers have taken the Cinematic Studio approach of sampling three different lenghts of legato. To my ears that's the best approach we have. Musicians play countless nuances, they adjust the length and how pronounced a transition is depending on musical context. Apart from Cinematic Studio Series, we only have legato on or off. Would love to see more developers givibg us more variations.


The Cinematic Studio Series only has one length legato but with different delays depending on velocity, meaning how truncated the actual legato is, but it's still the same samples. Except for the portamento which is different samples.


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## Rob (Nov 23, 2021)

generally speaking, I find legato transitions are often too loud, they create a bump in the line that gets in the way... I have to use a simple sus patch in those cases, smoother connections.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Nov 23, 2021)

Important thing to mention here is that "legato" isn't an articulation per se, it's a musical instruction / method / you name it. This results in different ways of interpretation. That's why have "fingered" or "bowed" legato. They all stand for "legato", but are just different ways of interpretation. And it also has something to do which "legato" type is the most suitable for the piece you are writing.

In case of strings, for example, you always start with a détaché, the basic bow stroke. Unfortunately, you rarely find this articulation (along with portato / tenuto or louré).


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## Pier-V (Nov 23, 2021)

@Marcus Millfield Thanks, you have no idea how much I appreciate that! If you don't mind I actually have a small question: if I understand correctly, brass legato is often used too much in orchestral writing, right?
Keeping the valve/lip legato difference out for the sake of simplicity, a section of brass players in unison can either slur a note or retongue every transition (the equivalent of a "bow change legato" I guess), but most of the times they simply put a small pause between notes, sometimes even in exposed melodic lines.
However, this is just what I gathered from books and Youtube masterclasses, so please correct me if I'm wrong!



I like music said:


> I think if someone could share any videos or audio examples of different techniques at the _real_ instrument level, it would give us all a good grounding in how to apply this knowledge to what we hear in sample-land.


I also want to give my contribution. Starting with a bassoon, this is the kind of video I watch when I want to learn about an instrument - to me the fact that you can see the whole process slowly taking shape is amazing (at around *21:00* you hear the first improvements of the melodic fragment played in the introduction, while from *30:28* onwards there's a beautiful sonic demonstration on how different release techniques can shape a lyrical line, just to give some examples):


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## cqd (Nov 23, 2021)

I think the adjustable legato speed knob on EW Hollywood OPUS is actually a phenomenal addition..being able to just adjust it to taste (I have it on a fader..) makes things so much more expressive..


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## ImJim (Nov 23, 2021)

AMBi said:


> Polyphonic legato is one of the most useful ideas to ever exist and I wish more devs implemented it


Not to mention true divisi, as starting with aldreay large string sections for polyphonic legato sounds absolutely terrible and unrealistic.


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 23, 2021)

Pier-V said:


> @Marcus Millfield Thanks, you have no idea how much I appreciate that! If you don't mind I actually have a small question: if I understand correctly, brass legato is often used too much in orchestral writing, right?
> Keeping the valve/lip legato difference out for the sake of simplicity, a section of brass players in unison can either slur a note or retongue every transition (the equivalent of a "bow change legato" I guess), but most of the times they simply put a small pause between notes, sometimes even in exposed melodic lines.
> However, this is just what I gathered from books and Youtube masterclasses, so please correct me if i'm wrong!



Wether or not legato in brass is overused in orchestral writing is up to the writer of the piece.

You'll see a couple of things happening when legato is in order for brass players. The biggest rule if you're orchestrating with samples for brass is that you keep in mind brass players have to breath now and then, but that doesn't mean long connected notes/passages cannot be played. Especially when playing in unison, brass players that have to play a phrase that takes more air than physically possible to have, players can alternate between each other, so that the other can take a breath. This entails using a small crescendo and a very light Duh-attack to blend in to the other players playing. The other player stops playing and can breath. With long legato, a note change is a good point to do this.

Pauses to breath will mostly be picked by the player on logical points in the piece: at a rest, at the end of a phrase, at other transitions. A lot of composers add these logical points with a tick mark ( ' ) in the sheet music, to help the player get an overview of how to dose their breathing and what are logical points to breath. Sometimes, especially when a player needs to play a high phrase or louder low notes will he be forced to breath on a non-logical place. Luckily, air intake can be done quickly.

Also, some instruments need more air (tuba) than others (trumpet), so that's something you need to consider too.

Hopefully this answers your question a bit.


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## Batrawi (Nov 23, 2021)

Jonathan Moray said:


> The Cinematic Studio Series only has one length legato but with different delays depending on velocity, meaning how truncated the actual legato is, but it's still the same samples. Except for the portamento which is different samples.


exactly. and by the way it only works well in slower/lyrical passages. The fast variation of the transition sounds blurry and far from being realistic.


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## Batrawi (Nov 23, 2021)

cqd said:


> I think the adjustable legato speed knob on EW Hollywood OPUS is actually a phenomenal addition..being able to just adjust it to taste (I have it on a fader..) makes things so much more expressive..


WTF??? so EW has actually added this feature in OPUS?!!!! can we now hear more of the transition than what we used to hear in the play version? If so then it might be time for me to upgrade.

@muziksculp & @cqd plz tell me more about it 🤩


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## cqd (Nov 23, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> WTF??? so EW has actually added this feature in OPUS?!!!! can we now hear more of the transition than what we used to hear in the play version? If so then it might be time for me to upgrade.
> 
> @muziksculp & @cqd plz tell me more about it 🤩


Yeah..it's on a cc..it really does make it way more expressive..it's something else..


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## ImJim (Nov 23, 2021)

This thread makes me want to talk about a crucial point that probably EVERY developer has completely overlooked: round robin legatos. Why not just record like 3 RRs for each interval?

This would instantly solve a lot of problems we encounter everyday like machine gun effect, bring much more possibilities (like making measured trems manually instead of using pre-sampled patches) and add a lot to the expressiveness we're all looking for.

*RR legatos are a MAJOR leap forward developers have to make in order to reach a whole new level of realism*, to a point where we probably won't be able to tell sampled strings and live performances apart.


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## chrisav (Nov 23, 2021)

ImJim said:


> This thread makes me want to talk about a crucial point that probably EVERY developer has completely overlooked: round robin legatos. Why not just record like 3 RRs for each interval?
> 
> This would instantly solve a lot of problems we encounter everyday like machine gun effect, bring much more possibilities (like making measured trems manually instead of using pre-sampled patches) and add a lot to the expressiveness we're all looking for.
> 
> *RR legatos are a MAJOR leap forward developers have to make in order to reach a whole new level of realism*, to a point where we probably won't be able to tell sampled strings and live performances apart.


Afflatus' Mystery patch (I think that's what it's called) has rr legato, and I believe TSS will have rr legato too


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 23, 2021)

ImJim said:


> This thread makes me want to talk about a crucial point that probably EVERY developer has completely overlooked: round robin legatos. Why not just record like 3 RRs for each interval?
> 
> This would instantly solve a lot of problems we encounter everyday like machine gun effect, bring much more possibilities (like making measured trems manually instead of using pre-sampled patches) and add a lot to the expressiveness we're all looking for.
> 
> *RR legatos are a MAJOR leap forward developers have to make in order to reach a whole new level of realism*, to a point where we probably won't be able to tell sampled strings and live performances apart.


true legato sampling is the most time/money consuming thing a Sample library developer can do....so to do it 4 times more, if the developer want to maintain the same profit they make per copy sold, and if they don't find a more efficent way of sampling legato transitions (to cut times), it would mean, for us, a price increase.


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

Nashi_VI said:


> it would mean, for us, a price increase.


And for every one customer willing to pay for that price increase, there are likely many, many, many more who would not be. Pity.


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## ImJim (Nov 23, 2021)

Nashi_VI said:


> true legato sampling is the most time/money consuming thing a Sample library developer can do....so to do it 4 times more, if the developer want to maintain the same profit they make per copy sold, and if they don't find a more efficent way of sampling legato transitions (to cut times), it would mean, for us, a price increase.


Fair point. But then they could also edit, EQ, stretch the legato transitions in 3 or 4 different ways to slightly alter their timbre. This would be fake RRs but would totally make a difference while playing. And it's much cheaper to do!


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## Zedcars (Nov 23, 2021)

ImJim said:


> This thread makes me want to talk about a crucial point that probably EVERY developer has completely overlooked: round robin legatos. Why not just record like 3 RRs for each interval?
> 
> This would instantly solve a lot of problems we encounter everyday like machine gun effect, bring much more possibilities (like making measured trems manually instead of using pre-sampled patches) and add a lot to the expressiveness we're all looking for.
> 
> *RR legatos are a MAJOR leap forward developers have to make in order to reach a whole new level of realism*, to a point where we probably won't be able to tell sampled strings and live performances apart.


It may be possible to script pseudo-legato RRs by using auto-transposition trick if the same legato note is played again say within *≈*10 seconds.


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## Zedcars (Nov 23, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Fair point. But then they could also edit, EQ, stretch the legato transitions in 3 or 4 different ways to slightly alter their timbre. This would be fake RRs but would totally make a difference while playing. And it's much cheaper to do!


I'm not sure it would be desirable to alter the timbre otherwise it will stick out too much within the legato phrase, but I see what you are saying. The thing is the ear is very good as spotting the same sample even if its frequency characteristics are altered. It would need to be a neighbouring sample pitched down (or up) to have any chance of fooling the ear without sticking out too much.


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## youngpokie (Nov 23, 2021)

MusicIstheBest said:


> sometimes our expectations of legato in samples are a little unrealistic, so be sure to keep listening to real performances lol.



Sometimes I think people would prefer string libraries where the instrument had just one 5-meter-long string that was played with a 6-meter-long bow. This would produce legato transitions that are always smooth and never have any bumps whatsoever.

I think this insistence of super-smooth legato creates a new problem - it actually trains people to completely ignore idiomatic phrasing, since we no longer have to deal with the realities of bumps caused by re-bowing or changing strings in the middle of a legato passage. 

Now we have a new and unrestrained style of writing, with x-tra smooth legato going on literally forever. It screams "written and played on a keyboard" and it sounds just as fake in its own way.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 23, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> It may be possible to script pseudo-legato RRs by using auto-transposition trick if the same legato note is played again say within *≈*10 seconds.


In practice, this tends to sound really bad. Like the instrument and room are morphing into different shapes with every repetition. Real RR sampling is much more subtle.


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## AlexSonicsMusic (Nov 23, 2021)

As there are so many misconceptions about legato and how string players use it, here's my contribution to this discussion : a video about legato, default viewing (detaché) and portamento as used by professional string players : 
I hope this helps.


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I also decided it would be a good idea to have the moderators delete my previous Legato with Poll topic, since it created a bit of negative sentiments on the forum.


For what it's worth, I've "un-deleted" the thread in question (https://vi-control.net/community/threads/legato-and-major-sample-library-developers-poll.117465/), but closed it from further comments.
Even if the poll was seen as silly by some people, there were a lot of posts made by a lot of people, with a lot of thought put behind... some of them. It's unfair to the forum members who participated for all of that to simply disappear, no matter how upset a single developer was about their representation in the poll.


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## giwro (Nov 23, 2021)

I think that maybe we obsess a bit too much about the legatos… it’s almost comical, but every time a lovely new string sample comes out, it’s not long before someone is complaining about the legatos…

I get it.

It’s a lot like any other community who has a deep focus on a subject - they perceive (or believe they perceive) things most other folks are blissfully unaware of. Just talk to a group of organists about toes-only pedaling and historic fingerings (and how such things “bring baroque music alive”, or some such opinion)

As was mentioned earlier, I think we are sometimes chasing an ideal that doesn’t always even exist in “real” performances… unfortunately, once we hear a perceived flaw, it’s hard to unhear it. 

I’m not sure what my point is now… maybe a call to remember that excellence is not necessarily perfection?


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## jbuhler (Nov 23, 2021)

muk said:


> It's puzzling for me that no other developers have taken the Cinematic Studio approach of sampling three different lenghts of legato. To my ears that's the best approach we have. Musicians play countless nuances, they adjust the length and how pronounced a transition is depending on musical context. Apart from Cinematic Studio Series, we only have legato on or off. Would love to see more developers givibg us more variations.


OT’s Sine implementation for BS has fingered, slurred, runs, and portamento, and it’s adaptive among these. The Capsule version is similar though implemented differently. The SF legatos generally selects among regular legato, runs, and portamento. So other developers are doing this, but their implementations obviously differ significantly from CSS. And the standard implementations do leave a gap between standard legato and the fast or runs legato. It's also interesting to me and somewhat surprising that having round robins for legato doesn't improve back and forth passages more. (BSS, Afflatus, and Agitato all have this, and I find it is only marginally effective. Adachi's implementation is pretty good though.) 

One thing I love about Adachi is that it has so many variations of legato, and these aren’t for the most part functionally different, meaning that there are several different slow legatos, for instance. @Sarah Mancuso's implementation of these legatos is also very meticulous, with every transition checked (more or less by hand rather than automated) and that adds considerably. With all the longs and arcs available and all the legato transitions, most of which work reasonably well together, means a true combinatorial richness is available in the library.

There is a double edged sword to this richness. Programming a line that draws from the full range of possibilities is very slow; the richness isn't really accessible in playing because of all the keyswitching that is required. There are ways of speeding it up the programming: sticking with one, two, or three transition types and/or longs; coming up with a map of assignments based on velocity or time, some of which Sarah provides as presets; etc. But these are all ways of curtailing the proliferation of potential to make it manageable, and there is a loss that comes with that curation. I like Sarah's method of allowing it to be user assigned, so we can set up our own presets easily, but I imagine if an actual developer was to do this, it would require a large amount of support labor, and the maintenance costs for the library would likely be high as well. I'm most curious (and excited!) to see how Sarah applies her skills to TSS and how that affects a library with far fewer legato types than available in Adachi.


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## LamaRose (Nov 23, 2021)

Nashi_VI said:


> true legato sampling is the most time/money consuming thing a Sample library developer can do....so to do it 4 times more, if the developer want to maintain the same profit they make per copy sold, and if they don't find a more efficent way of sampling legato transitions (to cut times), it would mean, for us, a price increase.


This!


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 23, 2021)

All you guys referencing legato as a hard thing to sample. Try sampling a percussion legato stroke!


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## muziksculp (Nov 23, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> For what it's worth, I've "un-deleted" the thread in question (https://vi-control.net/community/threads/legato-and-major-sample-library-developers-poll.117465/), but closed it from further comments.
> Even if the poll was seen as silly by some people, there were a lot of posts made by a lot of people, with a lot of thought put behind... some of them. It's unfair to the forum members who participated for all of that to simply disappear, no matter how upset a single developer was about their representation in the poll.


Hi @Jdiggity1 ,

I understand your reasoning to keep that thread, as a closed topic, but I would appreciate it if you can just delete the Poll part of that thread, I don't think it helps in any way to keep it on that thread.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## JohnG (Nov 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> In fact, only a couple of days ago I saw on another thread, someone commenting on how a certain interval should/couldn't have been mocked up the way it was, because of the valves (or something).


Maybe that comment was technically correct, but for goodness’ sake — who cares?

When stuck with samples-only, our job is to make something sound ‘musical’ and ‘good.’ That’s hard enough without getting all precious about it. The best thing is to add a live soloist who can double melodies — solo cello, solo clarinet or bassoon, violin. Something.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Maybe that comment was technically correct, but for goodness’ sake — who cares?
> 
> When stuck with samples-only, our job is to make something sound ‘musical’ and ‘good.’ That’s hard enough without getting all precious about it. The best thing is to add a live soloist who can double melodies — solo cello, solo clarinet or bassoon, violin. Something.


Exactly!

I always wonder how comical it would be to see an actual orchestra perform my tracks in the same manner I programmed them! The brass players, in particular, would be passed out from lack of oxygen in most cases. At the end of the day...if it sounds good, then that's all that matters.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 23, 2021)

With the level of obsession over legato on this forum, you'd think every piece of music ever written looks like this.







Meanwhile, more practical needs with more common applications, such as a good variety of shorts with variable lengths and proper release programming, a controllable variety of note releases (THANK YOU TSS!) get largely ignored in favor of chasing the all-mighty slur.

Y'all seriously crack me up with this stuff.


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Maybe that comment was technically correct, but for goodness’ sake — who cares?
> 
> When stuck with samples-only, our job is to make something sound ‘musical’ and ‘good.’ That’s hard enough without getting all precious about it.


I really appreciate this coming from you. Striving for pure realism with samples seems maddening. 

Even though something like Synchron-ized Dimension Strings can assist in "realism" with its string selection in the Dimension Tree, I only use it for tonal changes, rather than "what would make sense for a player."


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## Noeticus (Nov 23, 2021)

Medicare now includes a "Legato Trauma Benefit" for those suffering
from "ILP" (Insufficient Legato Perfection).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 23, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Medicare now includes a "Legato Trauma Benefit" for those suffering
> from "ILP" (Insufficient Legato Perfection).


You need an iLok plugged into your ear to access it


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> You need an iLok plugged into your ear to access it


Then why isn't it called an earLock?


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## youngpokie (Nov 23, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> if it sounds good, then that's all that matters.





Evans said:


> Striving for pure realism with samples seems maddening.


I would genuinely like to understand this better. 

There is a logic here that I'm not seeing - of spending thousands of dollars on "realistic" libraries created by real players, endlessly watching reviews, listening to demos (i.e. judging it on _realism _every step of the way), and then saving money, counting days to Black Friday - only to turn around and say no to realism in the way we write actual music for these instruments? 

Making a point of saying clearly that I don't mean any disrespect to anyone - how do I find the line that separates "sounds good" from "good enough"? Is "_it won't be played live_" a justification for not learning how real instruments work? And if not - why bother with realistic libraries in the first place? 

Help??


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## Mr Greg G (Nov 23, 2021)

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> As there are so many misconceptions about legato and how string players use it, here's my contribution to this discussion : a video about legato, default viewing (detaché) and portamento as used by professional string players :
> I hope this helps.



/thread


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## chrisav (Nov 23, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I would genuinely like to understand this better.
> 
> There is a logic here that I'm not seeing - of spending thousands of dollars on "realistic" libraries created by real players, endlessly watching reviews, listening to demos (i.e. judging it on _realism _every step of the way), and then saving money, counting days to Black Friday - only to turn around and say no to realism in the way we write actual music for these instruments?
> 
> ...


There is no such line, it's up to you to choose where to draw it. You are your own line 🙏


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I would genuinely like to understand this better.
> 
> There is a logic here that I'm not seeing - of spending thousands of dollars on "realistic" libraries created by real players, endlessly watching reviews, listening to demos (i.e. judging it on _realism _every step of the way), and then saving money, counting days to Black Friday - only to turn around and say no to realism in the way we write actual music for these instruments?
> 
> ...


I judge based on tone, clarity, system resource use, workflow, and flexibility.

I asked my daughter for help, and she said "video games." Specifically, avoiding the uncanny valley. Which, of course, is a bit about personal taste.

Stylized graphics, for example, are great. You can avoid the uncanny valley. I think of that like overlaying an obviously synthetic sound with some amazing strings. Your ears don't care as much if there's an unrealistic transition, and you can potentially hide an abrupt dynamic shift if the library doesn't have many layers.

But the closer to realism you strive for, the more likely you're going to trip the wire that makes it feel more disturbing than stylized.

Where is the line? Just ask @chrisav.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 23, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I would genuinely like to understand this better.
> 
> There is a logic here that I'm not seeing - of spending thousands of dollars on "realistic" libraries created by real players, endlessly watching reviews, listening to demos (i.e. judging it on _realism _every step of the way), and then saving money, counting days to Black Friday - only to turn around and say no to realism in the way we write actual music for these instruments?
> 
> ...


Here's the thing. You can get obsessive over trying to make your orchestrations sound exactly like a real orchestra (*which is literally impossible*); or you can get busy composing and producing music and stop worrying about sounding perfect. For example, are you going to add the little clicks to every clarinet and oboe part? Would a real string section play tiriads the same as I play them using ensemble patches? Hell no. But in reality, a well programmed track works 99% of the time because it sounds decent anyways. Modern VI libraries are wonderful because they sound convincing enough without having to worry about the pointless, minor details.

I work with a certain director who often thinks most of my parts are real players (when none of them are). If this satisfies the director, then I'm satisfied. In my world, that's what matters.


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## Kent (Nov 23, 2021)

Friendly reminder that this is not a pipe


----------



## youngpokie (Nov 23, 2021)

chrisav said:


> There is no such line, it's up to you to choose where to draw it. You are your own line 🙏


Yes, fair enough and it's the first thing I thought about too. 

I'm a bit concerned this means there isn't a genuine way to judge your own work or progress (if you wanted to do that), other than quantitively or by how you feel at a given moment in time. Or do you see it differently? I can certainly understand things like directors liking it, friends liking it, but I mean more the intrinsic _musical_ dimensions - such as technical quality of the writing itself, for example.

Besides, the majority of the forum seems to be drawing the line for legato in a totally different place anyway, so I'm left none the wiser.


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## chrisav (Nov 23, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I'm a bit concerned this means there isn't a genuine way to judge your own work or progress (if you wanted to do that), other than quantitively or by how you feel at a given moment in time. Or do you see it differently?


Being the relativist that I am, that is precisely how I see it! And I believe that goes for our ability to judge practically anything, in any field, ever. There exists an objective reality (as far as I know!), but our ability to perceive it and judge it will forever be limited by our little grey blobs of nerual pathways and our various sensory organs that are, marvelous as they may be, limited in their abilities. There is only, and there will only ever be your subjective interpretation of reality as you see it in this moment, whatever that moment is. 

Or to a bit be less freshman philosophy 101, people will have different standards depending on their own circumstances and where they are on their respective journeys, and there's little to be gained in trying to satisfy someone else who's got entirely different standards to those of your own. And in the context of sample libraries, that approach will also end up being quite expensive in the long run!


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## I like music (Nov 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Maybe that comment was technically correct, but for goodness’ sake — who cares?
> 
> When stuck with samples-only, our job is to make something sound ‘musical’ and ‘good.’ That’s hard enough without getting all precious about it. The best thing is to add a live soloist who can double melodies — solo cello, solo clarinet or bassoon, violin. Something.


See, you can make this comment because you have experience with the real thing. So you can have the confidence behind your comment because you're not on square one when it comes to understanding samples (because you know what they aim to replicate) 

I hope one day that one of my pieces might be played by a real orchestra, and I suspect that there are many others in the same boat. 

So, I think that enough people care.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 23, 2021)

I'm surprised the VI-C Legato Police has not posted anything on this thread yet.


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## MelodicAdagio (Nov 23, 2021)

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> As there are so many misconceptions about legato and how string players use it, here's my contribution to this discussion : a video about legato, default viewing (detaché) and portamento as used by professional string players :
> I hope this helps.



Good lesson. Very thorough. Thanks.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm surprised the VI-C Legato Police has not posted anything on this thread yet.


The VI-C Legato Free Radicals have them a bit pre-occupied.


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## Tralen (Nov 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> See, you can make this comment because you have experience with the real thing. So you can have the confidence behind your comment because you're not on square one when it comes to understanding samples (because you know what they aim to replicate)
> 
> I hope one day that one of my pieces might be played by a real orchestra, and I suspect that there are many others in the same boat.
> 
> So, I think that enough people care.


In any case, that doesn't mean that your piece needs to be translated exactly as it was written to be played by the real orchestra.

Why worry about the minute details when you can make adjustments for the real players when the time comes?


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## youngpokie (Nov 23, 2021)

chrisav said:


> there's little to be gained in trying to satisfy someone else who's got entirely different standards to those of your own.


I get this argument and again it makes sense to a point but there is something missing here and I can't quite put my finger on it. 

Because if I take this reasoning to its logical conclusion, there is no way I don't end up with this and not say "it's not a bad painting, just a different standard". No? And if not, where do I stop and draw the line here? Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone with this.







And in any case, it only adds to confusion because it doesn't really explain the disconnect between wanting to own a "realistic" library and yet not willing to write for real instruments.


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## I like music (Nov 23, 2021)

Tralen said:


> In any case, that doesn't mean that your piece needs to be translated exactly as it was written to be played by the real orchestra.
> 
> Why worry about the minute details when you can make adjustments for the real players when the time comes?


Not sure I follow. I agree that on a practical level, it won't make your samples do what samples can't do. 

But I don't see the issue with learning about it? It is knowledge that can only help, no?


----------



## Noeticus (Nov 23, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Friendly reminder that this is not a pipe


I have always loved this image! It even came with a manifesto of sorts.

How can it be a pipe when it is not a pipe.

There is no spoon.


----------



## Pier-V (Nov 23, 2021)

ImJim said:


> This thread makes me want to talk about a crucial point that probably EVERY developer has completely overlooked: round robin legatos. Why not just record like 3 RRs for each interval?
> 
> This would instantly solve a lot of problems we encounter everyday like machine gun effect, bring much more possibilities (like making measured trems manually instead of using pre-sampled patches) and add a lot to the expressiveness we're all looking for.
> 
> *RR legatos are a MAJOR leap forward developers have to make in order to reach a whole new level of realism*, to a point where we probably won't be able to tell sampled strings and live performances apart.


Unfortunately I have to agree with what others said about it not being feasible on a practical level and so on (even though TSS actually tried this and I'm curious to see the result).

That said.

Remember: when you want to propose something that will be probably seen as crazy always, and I mean ALWAYS go the extra mile. So, forget about rr legato and let me introduce to... 

*SECOND LEVEL TRUE LEGATO*

This is roughly how it works: people say true legato is amazing because it connects two different notes. _Pfff, cute_. But please tell me: what is the note *before* the transition? Because one thing is G going to C, then C going to D - but *F *going to C, then C going to D produces a completely different C to D transition!
There you have it, the definitive abomination: 25^2=625 variations for a single note and a single technique, 30 Gb of ram to load a single mic 1st violin slur legato and 2.5 Tb of space to install a single string library. But then, ladies and gentlemen, you have this:






On a serious note though, if you like that kind of approach I suggest you to check *Birth of the Trumpet *by* Straight Ahead Samples * - I won't spoil anything but I think you will be pleasantly surprised


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## chrisav (Nov 23, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I get this argument and again it makes sense to a point but there is something missing here and I can't quite put my finger on it.
> 
> Because if I take this reasoning to its logical conclusion, there is no way I don't end up with this and not say "it's not a bad painting, just a different standard". No? And if not, where do I stop and draw the line here? Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone with this.
> 
> ...


Absolutely see your point. Although we'll all have our own standards, there is bound to be statistically significant overlaps if you were to map the preferences of a large enough group of people. Call it popular consensus. And that consensus definitely has large value both in terms of "market value" for lack of a better term, and in the sense that catering to the common consensus will ease communication of your ideas to more people (say using realistic samples programmed realistically so most people will recognise it as a violin passage as opposed to using an old rompler sample and expecting it to pass in today's climate). Think of it as using terminology in spoken language that is understood by most people, rather than using weirdly obtuse jargon, or on the other hand, going so far in trying to appease others that you lose your own idiosyncrasies in exchange for an easily understood language bereft of all individuality. So it's a matter of balance. 

And speaking of communication, I'm starting to lose track of my own train of thought now haha


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## chrisav (Nov 23, 2021)

Pier-V said:


> *SECOND LEVEL TRUE LEGATO*
> 
> This is roughly how it works: people say true legato is amazing because it connects two different notes. _Pfff, cute_. But please tell me: what is the note *before* the transition? Because one thing is G going to C, then C going to D - but *F *going to C, then C going to D produces a completely different C to D transition!
> There you have it, the definitive abomination: 25^2=625 variations for a single note and a single technique, 30 Gb of ram to load a single mic 1st violin slur legato and 2.5 Tb of space to install a single string library. But then, ladies and gentlemen, you have this:


How much and where do I sign up to pre-order?


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## muziksculp (Nov 23, 2021)

I find these Solo Brass Instruments (Flugelhorn, Trumpet, Trombone) quite amazing, including the way they play legato, and their very low memory foot print.

V-Horns by Acoustic Samples : https://www.acousticsamples.net/vhorns


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## youngpokie (Nov 23, 2021)

chrisav said:


> I'm starting to lose track of my own train of thought now haha


Yeah, but you might be onto something when you talk about terminology.



chrisav said:


> terminology in spoken language that is understood by most people, rather than using weirdly obtuse jargon, or on the other hand, going so far in trying to appease others that you lose your own idiosyncrasies in exchange for an easily understood language bereft of all individuality.



This is making me think in a different direction: some of the sonic/technical imperfections of orchestral instruments are now part of their identity, their sonic signature, as it were, and the developers go to great lengths to reproduce them because we prize them. But many other imperfections are just annoying shortcomings and distractions that add nothing but take effort and time away. For someone who grew up with modern gain staging, EQ and compression before turning to orchestral music, this must be a masterclass in total chaos.

Maybe it's a simple question of mindset: (a) ignore the "useless" unproductive imperfections, pretend all legato transitions are seamless and so on. In other words, go for the idealized versions of the instruments, because samples actually allow us to eliminate a ton of problems. Or (b) all these imperfections, both good and bad, make the instrument what it is. A part should playable as written, and it should be written to be playable.

Maybe that could explain it. Edit: I know I am in camp (b). Maybe others can confirm/reject the hypothesis re: camp (a).


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## muziksculp (Nov 23, 2021)

imho. The traditional sampling techniques, with heavy reliance on scripting is not the future of legato, and acoustic instrument/s emulation in general. 

There are new technologies that will allow for more efficient use of resources, and deliver better results, including legato, realism, ease of performance, less reliance of keyswitches but rather real time performance being interpreted on the fly, flexible yet realistic timbral shaping, . ...etc.


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## jbuhler (Nov 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm surprised the VI-C Legato Police has not posted anything on this thread yet.


You really do have a thing about summoning the legato police...


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I find these Solo Brass Instruments (Flugelhorn, Trumpet, Trombone) quite amazing, including the way they play legato, and their very low memory foot print.
> 
> V-Horns by Acoustic Samples : https://www.acousticsamples.net/vhorns




Yes, these are good (flügelhorn still sounds like a trumpet though, sigh...) However, attack still is an issue. The sharp T in a tuh attack is hard to get right, as is apparent when comparing the Earth, Wind & Fire piece with the real player vs vHorn on the AS website. 

Audio Modelings trumpet for example, exaggerates the attack a bit too much per default, which almost sounds like the player is choking in a cookie in the mouthpiece. But al least you're able to dial it down.


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## Pier-V (Nov 23, 2021)

@jbuhler Yeah, I'm new to the forum but I have noticed that too. And the funniest part is that I don't even know who we are talking about.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 23, 2021)

No, the real funniest part is actually that the self-appointed "legato police" doesn't actually know the first thing about his supposed area of authority.


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## Tralen (Nov 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> Not sure I follow. I agree that on a practical level, it won't make your samples do what samples can't do.
> 
> But I don't see the issue with learning about it? It is knowledge that can only help, no?


I certainly agree about learning.

I just meant that, when considering a real performance of your work, adjustments will have to be made regardless, so striving for perfection in relation to how a real player would play may be a fool's errand.

Also, getting our music to sound as good as possible when performed live may be exclusive to getting it to sound as good as possible with our samples and tools.


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## JDK88 (Nov 23, 2021)

Having no legato is like having no letter L or R.


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 23, 2021)

Tralen said:


> I just meant that, when considering a real performance of your work, adjustments will have to be made regardless, so striving for perfection in relation to how a real player would play may be a fool's errand.



The orchestra will certainly have an overall feeling of what your piece is about once they had a good look at the sheet music and an explanation from you/the conductor about the idea behind the piece. However good the orchestra and players are, it's all down to how their viewpoint of what you've written and what you think you've written vary. That's where you're going to fine-tune, with the conductor, how your piece is played. You'll probably have to compromise here and there, but it will be worth it in the end hearing your creation brought to life. That's the great reward for all your hard labour.


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## Gene Pool (Nov 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> I hope one day that one of my pieces might be played by a real orchestra, and I suspect that there are many others in the same boat.
> 
> So, I think that enough people care.


Your instincts are correct. Never let other people myopically tell you what your standards should be, what you ought to care about, or presume to define your goals, tasks, and purposes.

Regarding your questions, I'll post something in the Composition section today that may be helpful.


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## I like music (Nov 23, 2021)

Tralen said:


> I certainly agree about learning.
> 
> I just meant that, when considering a real performance of your work, adjustments will have to be made regardless, so striving for perfection in relation to how a real player would play may be a fool's errand.
> 
> Also, getting our music to sound as good as possible when performed live may be exclusive to getting it to sound as good as possible with our samples and tools.


Oh I see! Yeah, that makes sense.


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## I like music (Nov 23, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Your instincts are correct. Never let other people myopically tell you what your standards should be, what you ought to care about, or presume to define your goals, tasks, and purposes.
> 
> Regarding your questions, I'll post something in the Composition section today that may be helpful.


Thank you. And looking forward to seeing what you post!


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## I like music (Nov 23, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I'm a trumpet/flügelhorn player with 30 years in playing and about 10 in teaching brass, so if you want to know anything about brass techniques, let me know. I also have a strong opinion on how to mimick brass techniques with libraries, although my knowledge of different libraries is far less than playing the actual instrument.


You might regret the offer. I definitely have questions and may fire these over at some point. Very much appreciated!


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## Trash Panda (Nov 23, 2021)

Just out of curiosity for those reading/posting here, ballpark estimate, what percentage of your mock ups utilize legatos?

Since partaking in the One Library Challenge and incorporating more use of AROOF, I'm really not finding legato is necessary very often. Maybe 5% of the time. More often than not, stacking a low velocity short (marcato, tenuto or stacatissimo/spiccato) with a long articulation is enough.


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## CT (Nov 23, 2021)

It's just one piece of the puzzle of phrasing. The sooner developers realize that and pay attention to the whole, rather than this one part at the expense of the others, the better.


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## handz (Nov 23, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Just out of curiosity for those reading/posting here, ballpark estimate, what percentage of your mock ups utilize legatos?
> 
> Since partaking in the One Library Challenge and incorporating more use of AROOF, I'm really not finding legato is necessary very often. Maybe 5% of the time. More often than not, stacking a low velocity short (marcato, tenuto or stacatissimo/spiccato) with a long articulation is enough.


I really do not understand what they were thinking with releasing a lib without a legato as the legatos are ABSOLUTELY a must for any good sounding mockup using melodic lines and solo passages unless it is all short notes. Legatos makes a huge difference.


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## pipirisnaki (Nov 23, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Just out of curiosity for those reading/posting here, ballpark estimate, what percentage of your mock ups utilize legatos?
> 
> Since partaking in the One Library Challenge and incorporating more use of AROOF, I'm really not finding legato is necessary very often. Maybe 5% of the time. More often than not, stacking a low velocity short (marcato, tenuto or stacatissimo/spiccato) with a long articulation is enough.


Mmmmm i don't have an estimate, but for example, when writing strings, i use legato when i think it's more comfortable for me when i play it (5 years playing violin, not a pro xd), usually at some Eighth Notes etc etc. Mmmm overall, i would say less than 15%. Cheers!


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## dgburns (Nov 23, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I have been delving back into my VSL SE edition libraries and some of their synchronized SE editions and I'm amazing at how agile their legatos are. They really stand up, especially in the woodwinds dept. the Dimension Synchronized brass is also amazing. Not sure what happened with the new Synchron stage stuff and whether the tails present a problem... but they don't have the same lovely slur sound that the classic series has


 What I feel is that the dryer sound is easier to work with in this respect. The far mics have too much ambient sound on them, and stitching legato samples together doesn’t work for my ears anyway. The dryer samples don’t suffer from this, because the decay times are so short, the legato transition samples do ‘what they are supposed to do’. So hard to get those far mics to sound smooth from one note to the next. 

It seems to me the better way is to work with dryer samples and apply a good surround reverb. Atleast with respect of legato.

Which is why I have become a dry sample lib aficionado.


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## chrisav (Nov 23, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Maybe it's a simple question of mindset: (a) ignore the "useless" unproductive imperfections, pretend all legato transitions are seamless and so on. In other words, go for the idealized versions of the instruments, because samples actually allow us to eliminate a ton of problems. Or (b) all these imperfections, both good and bad, make the instrument what it is. A part should playable as written, and it should be written to be playable.
> 
> Maybe that could explain it. Edit: I know I am in camp (b). Maybe others can confirm/reject the hypothesis re: camp (a).


I think you're on to something here. But again, just to throw a wrench into your argument, I think I've got a foot firmly planted in both camps. Playability and seamlessness is incredibly satisfying until it hits a point of sterility. Likewise, authentic sound with imperfections is lovely unless the road there is paved with a horrible workflow. So my take is to either 1) go for an approach in between, trying for the best of both worlds, or more realistically (both wrt what's possible in current libraries, and from looking at my spending habits over the last couple years), 2) buy both a playable and "perfect" library and another more characterful but less streamlined one, and layer them together.

Or, alternative 3) wait for modelling technology to progress to the point where it's indistinguishable from the real thing and get rid of samples altogether. But that leaves very little fun to be had in the meantime!


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## muziksculp (Nov 23, 2021)

chrisav said:


> 3) wait for modelling technology to progress to the point where it's indistinguishable from the real thing and get rid of samples altogether. But that leaves very little fun to be had in the meantime!


That will happen, but it needs more time. The advances, and improvements I notice every year using hybrid Modeling-Sampling, and Pure Modelled Instruments is very encouraging, and exciting. 

Really looking forward to the Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings version 2.01 release this year.


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## chrisav (Nov 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> That will happen, but it needs more time. The advances, and improvements I notice every year using hybrid Modeling-Sampling, and Pure Modelled Instruments is very encouraging, and exciting.
> 
> Really looking forward to the Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings version 2.01 release this year.


Absolutely! Such an exciting time for virtual instruments in general


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## muziksculp (Nov 23, 2021)

chrisav said:


> Absolutely! Such an exciting time for virtual instruments in general


Absolutely.  

I'm sure we will be riding a big, and very exciting wave of technological evolution in the next few years, we are already witnessing the changes, even though they are happening at a slow pace, I think the pace will gradually speed up, and more exciting technologies will be emerging. 

Exciting times ahead.


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## pipedr (Nov 23, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Just out of curiosity for those reading/posting here, ballpark estimate, what percentage of your mock ups utilize legatos?
> 
> Since partaking in the One Library Challenge and incorporating more use of AROOF, I'm really not finding legato is necessary very often. Maybe 5% of the time. More often than not, stacking a low velocity short (marcato, tenuto or stacatissimo/spiccato) with a long articulation is enough.


Can you talk more about this technique of stacking shorts on longs sampled without legato transitions, and maybe post some examples? Is this just for fast passages? It seems to me that this would make the attack of the note stronger, which might work for fast passages that get too blurry. However, there is also the problem of slow passages and the "sucking sound". Stacking a short for a slow phrase might make this sucking sound worse, maybe?


----------



## EgM (Nov 23, 2021)

cqd said:


> I think the adjustable legato speed knob on EW Hollywood OPUS is actually a phenomenal addition..being able to just adjust it to taste (I have it on a fader..) makes things so much more expressive..


I keep seeing people in this forum saying this, but isn't this fader just for legato (scripted) and portamento time? Because I've tried all the legato patches and this speed knob does nothing for "Mono True Legato" patches. True legato speed is and was always controlled by velocity in Play and Opus.

I just can't use these fake scripted legato patches, feels like a synth portamento...


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## dcoscina (Nov 23, 2021)

dgburns said:


> What I feel is that the dryer sound is easier to work with in this respect. The far mics have too much ambient sound on them, and stitching legato samples together doesn’t work for my ears anyway. The dryer samples don’t suffer from this, because the decay times are so short, the legato transition samples do ‘what they are supposed to do’. So hard to get those far mics to sound smooth from one note to the next.
> 
> It seems to me the better way is to work with dryer samples and apply a good surround reverb. Atleast with respect of legato.
> 
> Which is why I have become a dry sample lib aficionado.


Totally agree


----------



## jbuhler (Nov 23, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Just out of curiosity for those reading/posting here, ballpark estimate, what percentage of your mock ups utilize legatos?
> 
> Since partaking in the One Library Challenge and incorporating more use of AROOF, I'm really not finding legato is necessary very often. Maybe 5% of the time. More often than not, stacking a low velocity short (marcato, tenuto or stacatissimo/spiccato) with a long articulation is enough.


It depends on the piece and the library of course, but that seems about right. Of course if you have the legatos you might use them more often than is strictly necessary because legatos solve other problems than those they are strictly speaking designed for. (I imagine that’s why they they get used far more than they are needed, and I will add that often legato is the least bad solution to some passages that don’t sound quite right no matter what you do.)


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## cqd (Nov 23, 2021)

EgM said:


> I keep seeing people in this forum saying this, but isn't this fader just for legato (scripted) and portamento time? Because I've tried all the legato patches and this speed knob does nothing for "Mono True Legato" patches. True legato speed is and was always controlled by velocity in Play and Opus.
> 
> I just can't use these fake scripted legato patches, feels like a synth portamento...


Are you sure?..I only use it with MTL and it works?..


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## EgM (Nov 23, 2021)

cqd said:


> Are you sure?..I only use it with MTL and it works?..


Excuse my ignorance, I'm not sure what MTL is hehe. From testing with EWHO Strings/Woodwinds/Brass, the time knob only functions with the Legato and Portamento buttons enabled. Makes no difference for me with "Mono true legato"

Edit: Oh! Mono True Legato, gotcha! (I despise acronyms...lol) Yeah, I've tested with it and for me it only handles legato speed through velocity. I've only tested it with the legato "MAX" though


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## Trash Panda (Nov 23, 2021)

pipedr said:


> Can you talk more about this technique of stacking shorts on longs sampled without legato transitions, and maybe post some examples? Is this just for fast passages? It seems to me that this would make the attack of the note stronger, which might work for fast passages that get too blurry. However, there is also the problem of slow passages and the "sucking sound". Stacking a short for a slow phrase might make this sucking sound worse, maybe?


I think it will depend on the library like @jbuhler mentioned above, but you can do lyrical lines with it as well.

Here's an example of an exposed, lyrical line with the AROOF French horns using just long + staccatissimo. If I really wanted to massage this, I would likely work in tenutos and marcatos where appropriate for softer attacks.

View attachment FF7 Main Theme Melody - No Legato.mp3


Someone more experienced than me could probably do a much more convincing job with it too.


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## SteveC (Nov 23, 2021)

Yes, the transition of two notes is what we usually call legato in sample libraries. Since, from a musical point of view, phrasing and legato cannot really be separated, the legato topic should also include how much we can shape the phrasing, i.e. modulate the sound of the instruments. What do you think, who is ahead there?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 24, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I think it will depend on the library like @jbuhler mentioned above, but you can do lyrical lines with it as well.
> 
> Here's an example of an exposed, lyrical line with the AROOF French horns using just long + staccatissimo. If I really wanted to massage this, I would likely work in tenutos and marcatos where appropriate for softer attacks.
> 
> ...


Here's a slightly higher effort version using more articulations (tenuto, marcato, swells).

View attachment FF7 Main Theme Melody - No Legato.mp3


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## rMancer (Nov 24, 2021)

JDK88 said:


> Having no legato is like having no letter L or R.


One can, without a doubt, communicate many ideas without using those sounds in one's speech, though it might be quite demanding at times. But even so, one can yet convey passion, intensity, and many emotions. It does quite change the way one thinks about what one is saying, vis-à-vis idioms and content. But we mustn't dismiss the notion that those specific devices, though convenient and effective, can yet be done without (if one is so disposed).


----------



## Rtomproductions (Nov 24, 2021)

Legato is often overused IMO, but working without it using sample libraries can be very challenging. It's usually the attack that gives away a virtual instrument. EW Brass in particular is easy to work with when just using simple sustains...as long as you finesse the MOD wheel correctly.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 24, 2021)

Rtomproductions said:


> Legato is often overused IMO, but working without it using sample libraries can be very challenging. It's usually the attack that gives away a virtual instrument. EW Brass in particular is easy to work with when just using simple sustains...as long as you finesse the MOD wheel correctly.


Hi @Rtomproductions ,

Why do you think Legato is often overused ?

Regarding EW Strings, when would you use only the sustains, without legato ? 

This detail of Hollywood Strings OPUS is a bit unclear to me. Maybe you can help clarify things.
Could you also explain what is the difference between the (Mono True Legato), and the (Legato) buttons on the OPUS Strings interface ? i.e. which type of legato patches do they interact with/affect ?

Does the 'TIME' knob for legato change the Legato Transition time for both (Mono True Legato), and (Legato) when either one is enabled ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Batrawi (Nov 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> what is the difference between the (Mono True Legato), and the (Legato) buttons on the OPUS Strings interface ?


From the Play edition which I have the (Legato) button replaces the true legato with an artificial one as far as I recall... should be the same thing in OPUS I guess



muziksculp said:


> Does the 'TIME' knob for legato change the Legato Transition time for both (Mono True Legato)


That's something I really want to know as based on it I may buy OPUS right now! what I know for sure and seen on one of the YT videos is that it affects the artificial legato/portamento... it hasn't been tested on true legato though, but @cqd mentioned earlier to me that it works if I understood correctly.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 24, 2021)

@Batrawi,

So, the artificial Legato uses the normal sustain, and makes them transition from one note to the next sound more like a legato (smooth) transition, do you know how that is actually implemented ?



Batrawi said:


> That's something I really want to know as based on it I may buy OPUS right now! what I know for sure and seen on one of the YT videos is that it affects the artificial legato/portamento... it hasn't been tested on true legato though, but @cqd mentioned earlier to me that it works if I understood correctly.


OK. I will check if the TIME knob changes the Legato time of the (Mono True Legato) articulations in OPUS. and let you know.

Thanks.


----------



## Batrawi (Nov 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> do you know how that is actually implemented ?


If you mean technically then I have no idea. If you mean whether I personally like them, then I wouldn't touch those with a ten-foot pole


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 24, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> If you mean technically then I have no idea. If you mean whether I personally like them, then I wouldn't touch those with a ten-foot pole


LOL.. Yes, I meant technically. I know this is ancient tech. so, I don't bother using it either. 

By the way, you can download the OPUS Hollywood Orch. pdf Manual, to help you evaluate it in more detail.


----------



## Batrawi (Nov 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> By the way, you can download the OPUS Hollywood Orch. pdf Manual, to help you evaluate it in more detail


I did and searched by the word 'Time', and you can imagine how many results I found that I was completely lost😒


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 24, 2021)

Quote from the PDF Hollywood Orch. OPUS manual.

" *Legato*

This performance script that emulates legato playing by forcing monophonic behavior,
and adjusting note timing with no significant silence between them in order to produce
smooth melodic lines. You can make this effect more or less pronounced by adjusting the
‘Time’ knob in the Performance section, which can also be controlled by sending values
on a scale between 0 (least pronounced) and 127 (most pronounced) to MIDI CC 5.
If you wish to have two concurrent legato lines played by the same instrument, a second
instance of that instrument should be loaded. However, if your writing calls for both legato
(monophonic) and non-legato (polyphonic) writing by the same instrument, you can
enable and disable the Portamento script by sending values between 0-63 (OFF) and
64-127 (ON) to MIDI CC 57.
PLEASE NOTE The portamento and legato scripts are only emulations of these techniques,
and do not playback “true” portamento or legato interval samples. That is reserved for
instruments in the Legato folders, which use the ‘Monophonic True Legato’ performance
script described below.

*Monophonic True Legato*

This performance script is enabled by default on instruments that use “true” portamento
and legato samples, where each portamento and legato interval is meticulously sampled
for ultimate realism. It forces monophonic playback (by default), and uses MIDI Note
Velocity to adjust the timing of the legato transition playback, resulting in a looser or
tighter feel depending on hard hard or soft you play.
Playing softly (around a Note Velocity range of 50-60) will result in a longer legato transition
time, allowing the melody to breathe more. Playing more forcefully (around a Note
Velocity range of 110-127), will result in a shorter legato transition time, tightening up
the timing between notes. When Note Velocity is used to control Legato Speed, it does
not affect loudness.
The forced monophonic behavior can be turned on and off by sending values to MIDI CC
22 between 0 and 63 to enable polyphony, and between values 64 and 127 to enable
monophonic behavior. Note Velocity will continue to affect legato transition time unless
the script is turned off.
PLEASE NOTE: Disabling monophonic behavior runs the risk of inadvertently playing back
unwanted legato transitions when there is more than one melodic line being played. "


----------



## cqd (Nov 24, 2021)

Musikskulp is going to sort it out presently..
I only use it with mono true legato..unless it changes to scripted legato when you change the time I'm 90% sure it works with it..


----------



## Batrawi (Nov 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Quote from the PDF Hollywood Orch. OPUS manual.
> 
> " *Legato*
> 
> ...


so 'time' is only for scripted transitions😔


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 24, 2021)

So, it seems like the 'TIME' knob is only for affecting the artificial Legato transition time, not the True Legato.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 24, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> so 'time' is only for scripted transitions😔


Yes, only the simulated legatos, not the true legatos. For true legatos, velocity determines the length of the legato transition, this is similar to the way CSS does it.


----------



## cqd (Nov 24, 2021)

Can you check if it actually works with MTL engaged in the plugin though musikskulp?..
I'm not near the computer for a few days..


----------



## Rtomproductions (Nov 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Rtomproductions ,
> 
> Why do you think Legato is often overused ?
> 
> ...


I see you mostly answered your questions. As for why I think legato is overused, it's just...overused. It's a way people write to compliment sample libraries since a virtual instrument is, more often than not, "given away" by the attack, so the fewer attacks you have in a line, the less chance the listener has of identifying the instrument as a virtual instrument.

That said, for strings specifically, I typically do use legato patches for sustains, although if I'm sketching parts and in a polyphonic sustain patch (which I do often) and it sounds fine in context, I won't take the time to part them out to individual legato tracks.


----------



## Gene Pool (Nov 24, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Yes, the transition of two notes is what we usually call legato in sample libraries. Since, from a musical point of view, phrasing and legato cannot really be separated, the legato topic should also include how much we can shape the phrasing, i.e. modulate the sound of the instruments. What do you think, who is ahead there?


Phrasing is essentially about note grouping, and though one or more slurred notes _can_ be used as a note group or as part of one, phrasing itself is not dependent on slurring (or legato) being present; slurring is just one of a number of options that can used to turn a succession of notes into a living musical identity, i.e., a phrase. The primary goal of phrasing is Forward Motion.

A note group might be a whole phrase in and of itself (a motif or figure), or it might be one of several such groups comprising an elongated phrase. Current tech enables the composer to roughly approximate a somewhat effective note grouping in many cases, but where it fails is in the time and tedium required to pull it off.

Ideally, someday the user will be able to define note groupings in the notation or piano roll and choose note grouping routines from a menu—factory presets and user-defined—plus a simple means to quickly massage the nuance of the note grouping from there.


----------



## EgM (Nov 24, 2021)

cqd said:


> Can you check if it actually works with MTL engaged in the plugin though musikskulp?..
> I'm not near the computer for a few days..


I've tested it yesterday, mono true legato time is only affected with note velocity


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 24, 2021)

EgM said:


> I've tested it yesterday, mono true legato time is only affected with note velocity


Yes, and that's what the user's manual says. It's similar to the way CSS Legatos are chosen depending on the note velocity. I think this is the only library that does it like CSS. Unless I'm missing another library that uses this same criteria. Although the perceived latencies of the legatos when playing them in HOOPUS are not as annoying as when using CSS Advanced Legato patches.


----------



## EgM (Nov 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, and that's what the user's manual says. It's similar to the way CSS Legatos are chosen depending on the note velocity. I think this is the only library that does it like CSS. Unless I'm missing another library that uses this same criteria. Although the perceived latencies of the legatos when playing them in HOOPUS are not as annoying as when using CSS Advanced Legato patches.


I think 8Dio (Adagio/Agitato) uses velocity-based legato time as well, perhaps even some of Embertone's winds too, will check in a few


----------



## osterdamus (Nov 24, 2021)

ImJim said:


> Not to mention true divisi, as starting with aldreay large string sections for polyphonic legato sounds absolutely terrible and unrealistic.


Which libraries support true divisi?


----------



## Noeticus (Nov 24, 2021)

osterdamus said:


> Which libraries support true divisi?


MSS and LASS 3. 

Plus, Dimensions Strings from VSL. 

Plus....???


----------



## Trash Panda (Nov 24, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> MSS and LASS 3.
> 
> Plus, Dimensions Strings from VSL. Plus....???


NI Session Strings Pro 2
NI Symphony Strings


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 24, 2021)

Rtomproductions said:


> That said, for strings specifically, I typically do use legato patches for sustains, although if I'm sketching parts and in a polyphonic sustain patch (which I do often) and it sounds fine in context, I won't take the time to part them out to individual legato tracks.


This is how I works as well. If it sounds good, why change it.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, LEGATO, is a big, and quite important topic when it comes to sample libraries. I thought this thread is a place to discuss Legato in general, and comment about it, provide feedback, examples, and everything related to it. It would serve as a very useful resource for both users, and developers.
> 
> ...


I always get attacked for this view but in my honest opinion I think way too much focus is put on it. It's an important feature for sure and it was ground breaking when VSL introduced it. But way too many people use it as the only articulation (well it and spicc but that's another gripe). 

I find that even myself rather than really thinking about how a real person would play it on a real instrument and programming the articulations accordingly, people use it on a phrase like it's one continuous long bow or breath. It's impossible to do that and it weakens the over all effect. 

If improvements are to be made I'd like to see developers focus more on bow change connections attached to velocity. So the harder you hit the more accented the bow change becomes, the softer the less noticeable. It would be more realistic because in truth string players can only do a few notes at a time slurred before they have to change bow. So even the most flowing lyrical string pieces have a lot of bow change connectivity. 

Woodwinds on the other hand can slur a lot. We train to go for almost 30 sec without a breath if not longer. So we can slur all day long really. But... it sounds weird and often time when given a part with one continuous slur, I'll just add my own breaks, tongue, ect to make the line more interesting. 

Brass players also can go a long time in one breath and can slur all over the place but it gets sloppy and in general I tend to see less slur marks in brass parts especially older classical scores when the lip slurring would have been unbearable. I mean listen to Brahms horn trio on a natural horn. What a nightmare that would be if slur was over done. 

It's been called the "holy grail" of sampling. Bah.... Well done sustains can also sound very connected. So I almost prefer scripted legato to recorded transitions because they are more flexible and I tend to not want to use "legato" as much as some others. Though at times completely necessary. 

Now don't even get me started on portamento. I think I've used it 3 times in my entire career. But sometimes portamento connects well I must admit. In the end Variety is the key so that we can program the most convincing musically expressive lines possible and then some of us might even get to translate it to real people, but if we can't then we of course want the most articulations as possible to make the best of any given musical idea.


----------



## Evans (Nov 24, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I always get attacked for this view but in my honest opinion I think way too much focus is put on it.


I dunno, José. I'm listening to a playlist from Glory right now, and it pretty much could be named _Legato: The Film Score - A James Horner Special, feat. Horns (w/Legato) and Trumpets (w/Legato)_.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 24, 2021)

Evans said:


> I dunno, José. I'm listening to a playlist from Glory right now, and it pretty much could be named _Legato: The Film Score - A James Horner Special, feat. Horns (w/Legato) and Trumpets (w/Legato)_.


I hear you. It's a matter of taste. Glory always sounded too slurpy for me. Trumpets legato sounds kind of sanguine. Horns are cool though. I much prefer scores like Malcom X for that dramatic Americana type feel. More of a mix of expressive articulations which legato is important but not the only type of articulation used. 

Not to knock Glory. It's a fine score.


----------



## ImJim (Nov 25, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> MSS and LASS 3.
> 
> Plus, Dimensions Strings from VSL.
> 
> Plus....???


Afflatus does too.


----------



## SteveC (Nov 25, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Phrasing is essentially about note grouping, and though one or more slurred notes _can_ be used as a note group or as part of one, phrasing itself is not dependent on slurring (or legato) being present; slurring is just one of a number of options that can used to turn a succession of notes into a living musical identity, i.e., a phrase. The primary goal of phrasing is Forward Motion.
> 
> A note group might be a whole phrase in and of itself (a motif or figure), or it might be one of several such groups comprising an elongated phrase. Current tech enables the composer to roughly approximate a somewhat effective note grouping in many cases, but where it fails is in the time and tedium required to pull it off.
> 
> Ideally, someday the user will be able to define note groupings in the notation or piano roll and choose note grouping routines from a menu—factory presets and user-defined—plus a simple means to quickly massage the nuance of the note grouping from there.


I agree with you in phrasing theory so far! A phrase doesn't necessarily have to do with legato. But legato has a lot to do with phrasing.

For me there are three parameters of the legato which VSTs could technically fulfill:

1. The connection of 2 tones of different or the same pitch.

2. The equalization of the color at the transition between these two tones.

3. The equalization of the intensity at the transition of these two notes.

While I hear good results at point one, I have a feeling of deficiency at points 2 and 3.

Points 2 and 3 are particularly important for the entire legato phrase, i.e. to somehow create the illusion of real playing.

I think most of all I miss the opportunity to get a specific intensity into the tone. For my taste this would be very important for a good legato.


----------



## SteveC (Nov 25, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> With the level of obsession over legato on this forum, you'd think every piece of music ever written looks like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic (Nov 25, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> /thread


What do you mean?


----------



## Vik (Nov 25, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Now don't even get me started on portamento. I think I've used it 3 times in my entire career.


I agree that portamento, when used too often or when the transition are too loud (or too long), is a no-no. But don't forget that we use legato and portamento all the time when we're when singing. So – like it or not, it's an articulation we alle have heard a lot even before we played our first note on an instrument.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Nov 25, 2021)

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> What do you mean?


It means you explained everything sample library users need to know about the use of (strings) legatos in your video. I wouldn't have explained it better.

You didn't get much response though, not sure exactly why. 

Congrats on your playing


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Nov 25, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Plus, Dimensions Strings from VSL.


Only the VI one, not the Synchron-ized one, as the Synchron client doesn't support (auto-)divisi.


----------



## Chris Hein (Nov 25, 2021)

I have made a tutorial video on "how to use Legato & Portamento" in my orchestral instruments.
Maybe it provides some inspiration to this discussion.
Especially the "offset" and "speed" functions (shown from 1:50) which let you edit the behavior of the Portamento transition in a very flexibel way:



Chris Hein


----------



## Rob (Nov 25, 2021)

rMancer said:


> One can, without a doubt, communicate many ideas without using those sounds in one's speech, though it might be quite demanding at times. But even so, one can yet convey passion, intensity, and many emotions. It does quite change the way one thinks about what one is saying, vis-à-vis idioms and content. But we mustn't dismiss the notion that those specific devices, though convenient and effective, can yet be done without (if one is so disposed).


great


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## Noeticus (Nov 25, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Only the VI one, not the Synchron-ized one, as the Synchron client doesn't support (auto-)divisi.


Divisi does not have to be auto to be divisi.


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Nov 25, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Divisi does not have to be auto to be divisi.


That's why it's in parenthesis


----------



## Noeticus (Nov 25, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> That's why it's in parenthesis


Okay, sure, but Dimensions Strings is a Divisi library even when using the updated Synchron-ized version.


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic (Nov 26, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> It means you explained everything sample library users need to know about the use of (strings) legatos in your video. I wouldn't have explained it better.
> 
> You didn't get much response though, not sure exactly why.
> 
> Congrats on your playing


Thank you very much 🌞


----------



## YuyaoSG (Nov 29, 2021)

I want to point out the Synchron Elite Strings.

I believe the developers are all professional and have a lot of experience with strings.
SES has a lot of options for legato. But their legato is not smooth enough.
The slur legato, come on!! Why it sound like portamento? 
I have watched all the demonstration videos. Yeah, it sounds good in the slow movement.
But, if you speed up a little bit, like 60-90bpm, the weakness will show up. (Well, maybe you will say I need to change another legato mode. But, there is no legato mode as smooth as CSS or other strings libraries). Please don't tell me the portamento-like legato is a style of the slur legato, I am not buying it. I compared with CSS, 8dio new century strings, and Soaring String even the recording of the real strings. I can tell which is portamento and which is slur legato. 
I like the product from VSL. But, I don't know if developers will fix SES's legato problem. Or they don't think it's a problem. But according to the price of their products, they should continue to optimize SES.


----------



## TonalDynamics (Nov 29, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Now don't even get me started on portamento. I think I've used it 3 times in my entire career.


Everybody needs a little portamento... I honestly couldn't live without it.

Imagine a world with no SLIDE or lap steel guitar... FRETLESS bass guitar?!!

On second thought don't, it's too painful


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi,

Since this is a dedicated Legato thread, I thought it would be interesting to discuss the new Legato technique that Spitfire Audio introduced us to in their latest strings library, Appassionata Strings (SAS). which they call '*Impulse Legato*'. 

Any guesses what makes this a new, and different Legato technique ? how they are achieving it ?

I know this info. might never be disclosed by Spitfire Audio, but I'm curious what they did to achieve this new legato technique, since it surely sounds much smoother, and imho quite a big improvement compared to their previous legato system. 

I'm also curious if they will implement Impulse Legato in their upcoming Abbey Road 1 Modular Orch. libraries. or stick to their previously used legato techniques ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Since this is a dedicated Legato thread, I thought it would be interesting to discuss the new Legato technique that Spitfire Audio introduced us to in their latest strings library, Appassionata Strings (SAS). which they call '*Impulse Legato*'.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's about smoothness necessarily, that comes from careful editing (which it certainly sounds like they did with this library!) I think it's more that they did something similar to performance sampling it.



> "Impulse Legato" technique – the culmination of years of intensive research and development at Spitfire Audio HQ. Delivering flowing and emotive lines, these new legatos offer perfectly balanced vibrato, enabling composers to intuitively write in a beautiful, soaring melodic style in stunning detail



It sounds to me like all their descriptions of it focus on expression, not necessarily smoothness as in lack of bumpiness


----------



## KEM (Jan 30, 2022)

Good legato is cool and all but what’s really important to me is good release tails (I’m looking at you Spitfire…)


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 30, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I don't think it's about smoothness necessarily, that comes from careful editing (which it certainly sounds like they did with this library!) I think it's more that they did something similar to performance sampling it.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds to me like all their descriptions of it focus on expression, not necessarily smoothness as in lack of bumpiness


Yes, that's right, Smoothness means less bumpiness, but it also means it sound more natural, and the legato transitions sound more natural between the played note, and the destination note. Nothing jumps out as sounding odd/fake, so I wonder what is the main reason for this improvement. 

If it is as you mention due to the fact they sampled special type of legato transitions that they were able to extract from the performances, then what makes them so good at various playing speeds, especially if the legatos are static. 

My guess is they have some type of a dynamic legato feature, that allow them to change the length of the transition based on playing speed, or other performance parameters. 

I'm still not sure why they named it 'Impulse Legato' . What exactly is 'Impulse' referring to in this context ?


----------



## Saxer (Jan 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm still not sure why they named it 'Impulse Legato' . What exactly is 'Impulse' referring to in this context ?


I think it's a kind of performance legato like in their previous libraries where they combined legatos with added shorts. But in this case they didn't just used separately recorded spiccs or staccs for the attack overlays but customized attacks (impulses) for melodic playing in different speeds and dynamics. More or less like Chris Hein's note heads feature but with an automated speed detection. I might be wrong though...


----------



## Vik (Jan 31, 2022)

My guess is that the talk about a new 'smoothness' may refer to earlier libraries like SSS and SSS, which don't combine legato with dynamic vibrato crossfade – they only offer vibrato cross-switch in these legatos – with a quick and extremely short x-fade to cover the sound that otherwise would occur at the cross-switch position. (The longs had vibrato crossfades in SSS and SCS.)


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 31, 2022)

Vik said:


> My guess is that the talk about a new 'smoothness' may refer to earlier libraries like SSS and SSS, which don't combine legato with dynamic crossfade – they only offer dynamic cross-switch in these legatos – with a quick and extremely short x-fade to cover the sound that otherwise would occur at the cross-switch position. (The longs had dynamic crossfades in SSS and SCS.)


Wait that can't be right, there are no dynamic crossfades in SSS?


----------



## Vik (Jan 31, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Wait that can't be right, there are no dynamic crossfades in SSS?


I corrected my post, I was referring to the lack of vibrato crossfade in the legatos!


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 31, 2022)

Vik said:


> I corrected my post, I was referring to the lack of vibrato crossfade in the legatos!


Phew i was like "how has nobody ever brought this up before!"


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 1, 2022)

Watching this video, Dan Keen mentions that Impulse Legato is a re-bow when you play repeated notes. So, I'm still puzzled, is this the main new feature that Impulse Legato adds to SAS when compared to their other legatos in other libraries, or is there more to it than just a re-bow feature ? 

The video is cued at the point where he mentions the Impulse Legato (Re-Bow) feature.


----------



## Batrawi (Feb 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Watching this video, Dan Keen mentions that Impulse Legato is a re-bow when you play repeated notes. So, I'm still puzzled, is this the main new feature that Impulse Legato adds to SAS when compared to their other legatos in other libraries, or is there more to it than just a re-bow feature ?
> 
> The video is cued at the point where he mentions the Impulse Legato (Re-Bow) feature.



That's a bit strange coz Paul bragged about the impulse legato in the walkthrough video then almost played everything as melodies! maybe Paul himself doesn't know what impulse legato is 🤨


----------



## Tralen (Feb 3, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> That's a bit strange coz Paul bragged about the impulse legato in the walkthrough video then almost played everything as melodies! maybe Paul himself doesn't know what impulse legato is 🤨


If he doesn't know, then we all know what it is: marketing.


----------



## Batrawi (Feb 3, 2022)

Tralen said:


> If he doesn't know, then we all know what it is: marketing.


But to be fair though, even if it's marketing, the legato does sound special actually, so the fancy name is well deserved!


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 3, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> That's a bit strange coz Paul bragged about the impulse legato in the walkthrough video then almost played everything as melodies! maybe Paul himself doesn't know what impulse legato is 🤨


I don't believe that review is accurate. It just contradicts pretty much every official channel on what impulse legato means


----------



## Tralen (Feb 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I don't believe that review is accurate. It just contradicts pretty much every official channel on what impulse legato means


Yes, I was having trouble understanding what it means and that review really added to the confusion. But now I think that he just meant that the Impulse Legatos were used for that passage (with the round-robins and all) and not that it is all that they are about.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> That's a bit strange coz Paul bragged about the impulse legato in the walkthrough video then almost played everything as melodies! maybe Paul himself doesn't know what impulse legato is 🤨


Maybe Dan Keen can give us a bit more feedback about what Impulse Legato is all about, if he knows. 

I don't know if he is a member of this forum, so we can ask him about Impulse Legato. Anyone know if he is ? 

I'm also curious if Paul, or Christian might post some more info. about Impulse Legato in the future, whatever it is, it seems to be very popular so far, and has satisfied many legato string fans. They must have done something right this time around, but what is it that they did differently with SAS Legatos is the big question.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

OK, I posted this comment on the Dan Keen YT video above. 

Maybe he will reply to my comment. 

*Quote :*

_" Hi Dan Keen, 

Thanks for the helpful video. One thing I'm still not clear about, and that is, what exactly is this new 'Impulse Legato' system all about, that was used for the legatos of this library ? I don't know if you know more about it, and have an accurate understanding of what it actually does, and how it differs from the Legato system Spitfire Audio implemented in their previous Strings Legatos in various libraries. It would be very interesting if you can comment on this important detail, since Spitfire Audio has not disclosed what impulse legato is all about. 

Thanks, 
Muziksculp "_


----------



## Tom Ferguson (Feb 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OK, I posted this comment on the Dan Keen YT video above.
> 
> Maybe he will reply to my comment.
> 
> ...


I thought Dan Keen is just one of their composers? Did he actually work on their libraries?

Wouldn't Karma be a better person to ask?


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Tom Ferguson said:


> I thought Dan Keen is just one of their composers? Did he actually work on their libraries?
> 
> Wouldn't Karma be a better person to ask?


OK, I will also ask Karma if that helps.


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## Tom Ferguson (Feb 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OK, I will also ask Karma if that helps.


Probably not, but you can try! 😉


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Hi @Karma ,

We haven't been able to read anything about what the new *Impulse Legato* system used in the new *Appssionata Strings* library is all about. 

Would it be possible for you to explain to us what Impulse Legato is all about, and how it differs from the traditional legato techniques Spitfire Audio implemented in most of their other String libraries ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Batrawi (Feb 4, 2022)

from the name "impulse" and as I hear it, it sounds like a tiny bloom/crescendo just at the start of a legato transition so it gives you that sense of movement and liveliness in the performance


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## Tralen (Feb 4, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> from the name "impulse" and as I hear it, it sounds like a tiny bloom/crescendo just at the start of a legato transition so it gives you that sense of movement and liveliness in the performance


That is what I was thinking, specially by them mentioning "4 Round Robin ‘Impulse Attacks’". But the main description mentions some form of vibrato:


> Delivering flowing and emotive lines, these new legatos offer perfectly balanced vibrato, enabling composers to intuitively write in a beautiful, soaring melodic style in stunning detail.


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## Karma (Feb 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Karma ,
> 
> We haven't been able to read anything about what the new *Impulse Legato* system used in the new *Appssionata Strings* library is all about.
> 
> ...


Honestly I don't think it's something we can delve into too much! Essentially it is very much based on the performances from the players, and the methodology surrounding that both in the programming and the recordings themselves. That's all I can specify really!


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## Casiquire (Feb 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Karma ,
> 
> We haven't been able to read anything about what the new *Impulse Legato* system used in the new *Appssionata Strings* library is all about.
> 
> ...





Batrawi said:


> from the name "impulse" and as I hear it, it sounds like a tiny bloom/crescendo just at the start of a legato transition so it gives you that sense of movement and liveliness in the performance





Tralen said:


> That is what I was thinking, specially by them mentioning "4 Round Robin ‘Impulse Attacks’". But the main description mentions some form of vibrato:


Everything Spitfire themselves have said about it sounds like just plain performance sampling, and i think it's super weird that they're marketing it on the one hand and being super coy about it on the other.


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## Tom Ferguson (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Everything Spitfire themselves have said about it sounds like just plain performance sampling, and i think it's super weird that they're marketing it on the one hand and being super coy about it on the other.


I'm sure it's just to add mystique and increase perceived value or whatever. At least it actually sounds good (from this one library we have as an example at least) so can kinda forgive the pretentious terminology somewhat


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## Casiquire (Feb 4, 2022)

Tom Ferguson said:


> I'm sure it's just to add mystique and increase perceived value or whatever. At least it actually sounds good (from this one library we have as an example at least) so can kinda forgive the pretentious terminology somewhat


I'm actually totally cool with their terminology, i just don't get why you'd advertise something you can't define or talk about. Like imagine an old vacuum seller from the 1950s coming to your door to tell you about how his vacuum is better because of its new unbeatable Suckit technology and the outside of the box says "Suckit Tech!" all over and when you're like "oh cool how does that work!" He's like "oh i can't tell you, just trust me bro." It's just... Strange lol


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## Tom Ferguson (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm actually totally cool with their terminology, i just don't get why you'd advertise something you can't define or talk about. Like imagine an old vacuum seller from the 1950s coming to your door to tell you about how his vacuum is better because of its new unbeatable Suckit technology and when you're like "oh cool how does that work!" He's like "oh i can't tell you, just trust me bro." It's just... Strange lol


Yeh I get what you mean, it's definitely a strange way to do it. I guess it's the marketing sideand the R'n'D side pulling in two different directions and it's left in a strange middle ground


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## muziksculp (Feb 4, 2022)

Karma said:


> Honestly I don't think it's something we can delve into too much! Essentially it is very much based on the performances from the players, and the methodology surrounding that both in the programming and the recordings themselves. That's all I can specify really!


Thanks for some feedback on this. No problem if you can't discuss it in more detail. At least I get the overall concept involved.


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## chrisav (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm actually totally cool with their terminology, i just don't get why you'd advertise something you can't define or talk about. Like imagine an old vacuum seller from the 1950s coming to your door to tell you about how his vacuum is better because of its new unbeatable Suckit technology and the outside of the box says "Suckit Tech!" all over and when you're like "oh cool how does that work!" He's like "oh i can't tell you, just trust me bro." It's just... Strange lol


Hey, it worked for Sega with their legendary "BLAST PROCESSING" way back when


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## rrichard63 (Feb 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> At least I get the overall concept involved.


Could you restate it for those of us who don't? I got nothing out of @Karma's post except for the inference that the technology is proprietary.


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## Karma (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Everything Spitfire themselves have said about it sounds like just plain performance sampling, and i think it's super weird that they're marketing it on the one hand and being super coy about it on the other.


Well I can tell you it's not performance sampling. There is an element of "secret sauce" to this stuff, especially given the amount of time and R&D behind it.

From my honest perspective putting aside my role for a moment, I'd say as a user it wouldn't really change anything if we did go into the specifics here - all that matters is does it sound more expressive than the other legatos we've done? To me that is a very clear and resounding yes, which does make it worth stating there's some different methodology behind it.


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## muziksculp (Feb 4, 2022)

Well, according to Spitfire Audio, their new Impulse Legato is a result of 15 years of testing/experimenting to get to these results with Impulse legato, if it was just a purely performance legato based feature, it would have not taken them this long. So, yes, there is a secret recipe sauce we won't know, because it is the *precious*


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## Casiquire (Feb 4, 2022)

Karma said:


> Well I can tell you it's not performance sampling. There is an element of "secret sauce" to this stuff, especially given the amount of time and R&D behind it.
> 
> From my honest perspective putting aside my role for a moment, I'd say as a user it wouldn't really change anything if we did go into the specifics here - all that matters is does it sound more expressive than the other legatos we've done? To me that is a very clear and resounding yes, which does make it worth stating there's some different methodology behind it.


That's fair, and my point isn't that the tech isn't better than what Spitfire was doing before, it's just confusing from a marketing standpoint. There might be a difference but you don't know that until after you've bought it and started using it, so to someone on the outside like me it's just a buzzword. 

I want to be clear that I'm not minimizing the work and the letter itself at all. If anything the buzzword made me think you did *less* work than what you've actually done, as indicated by your statement above, and that work seems to have paid off. Appassionata sounds smooth and gorgeous, and Spitfire in my opinion has the best track record of tone among any other developer out there and i don't think it's hyperbole, in fact i don't even think it's close. Appassionata is no exception and it's already very popular.


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## soulofsound (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm actually totally cool with their terminology, i just don't get why you'd advertise something you can't define or talk about. Like imagine an old vacuum seller from the 1950s coming to your door to tell you about how his vacuum is better because of its new unbeatable Suckit technology and the outside of the box says "Suckit Tech!" all over and when you're like "oh cool how does that work!" He's like "oh i can't tell you, just trust me bro." It's just... Strange lol


Apt analogy.


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## Casiquire (Feb 4, 2022)

soulofsound said:


> Apt analogy.


It only just hit me that i used an extended metaphor, I'm sorry everyone!


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## Tralen (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> That's fair, and my point isn't that the tech isn't better than what Spitfire was doing before, it's just confusing from a marketing standpoint. There might be a difference but you don't know that until after you've bought it and started using it, so to someone on the outside like me it's just a buzzword.


It is particularly annoying for evil people like me that won't ever buy the library and just want to mimic the effect with the tools I got.


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## jbuhler (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> That's fair, and my point isn't that the tech isn't better than what Spitfire was doing before, it's just confusing from a marketing standpoint. There might be a difference but you don't know that until after you've bought it and started using it, so to someone on the outside like me it's just a buzzword.


Karma calling it "special sauce" is saying SF is treating impulse legato as a trade secret.

Because impulse legato did not come attached to a product with a price premium, I think we can assume that it is no more labor intensive for SF to produce than their previous legatos, so it may involve important changes at any or maybe all of the stages of performance, recording, editing, and/or scripting (and whatever other stages of production it goes through) but the changes do not significantly increase labor inputs overall. So it evidently scales. I hope that's true because it would mean we're likely to see it on more products going forward even if it is not backwards compatible with previous products. It will also be interesting to see if the technique/methodology works as well for solo instruments and for non-strings.


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## Casiquire (Feb 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Karma calling it "special sauce" is saying SF is treating impulse legato as a trade secret.
> 
> Because impulse legato did not come attached to a product with a price premium, I think we can assume that it is no more labor intensive for SF to produce than their previous legatos, so it may involve important changes at any or maybe all of the stages of performance, recording, editing, and/or scripting (and whatever other stages of production it goes through) but the changes do not significantly increase labor inputs overall. So it evidently scales. I hope that's true because it would mean we're likely to see it on more products going forward even if it is not backwards compatible with previous products. It will also be interesting to see if the technique/methodology works as well for solo instruments and for non-strings.


And i love seeing a good success story. Spitfire taking something they weren't really known for being the strongest at, and turning it into such a strength, is great for them and for us! Agreed, seeing this in future instruments will be awesome


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## Vik (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Spitfire taking something they weren't really known for being the strongest at, and turning it into such a strength


Also: both SSS and Sable/SCS has often been mentioned as examples of great legatos – eg. in comments about some of the legatos in string libraries released after these two 'flagship' products.


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## Casiquire (Feb 4, 2022)

Vik said:


> Also: both SSS and Sable/SCS has often been mentioned as examples of great legatos – eg. in comments about some of the legatos in string libraries released after these two 'flagship' products.


Interesting, I've read a lot of the opposite. Maybe they've been fixing them up like the new performance mode which does look very good


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## jbuhler (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Interesting, I've read a lot of the opposite


Back in the day, before CSS, they were often held up as state of the art legato. I never especially liked the legato of SSS, but I have always liked those of SCS, and still do today. But beyond being different sized ensembles, the sensibilities of SCS and SAS also differ somewhat, so they are complementary.


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## Vik (Feb 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Maybe they've been fixing them up like the new performance mode which does look very good


Both SSS and SCS have two different performance related legato options – 'Legato Performance' and 'Performance Legato' (!).

Legato performance came first, and Performance legato were added later – and for the most believable results, the best solution is IMHO to use a combination of the two. The chamber strings got the the update in 2016, but even before that, their legatos were, by some, pointed at as this library's best feature.









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I have been wondering, several times, why some of the SF libraries released after SCS and SSS seems to have less convincing legato solutions than those two oldies.

IMO it doesn't really matter if the SAS 'impulse legato' is something new or a reintroduction of what they did 5-10 years ago. What matters is how their legatos sound, and based on demos, the SAS legato transitions are good.

And the legato updates, especially for Mural users, were very welcome – just like the free SCS legato update was.

Maybe 'impulse' only refers to an impulsive idea about treating new string libraries the same way they, at best, treated legatos 5-10 years ago? 

Disclaimer: I have SCS and SSS, but not SAS (but I'm interested in SAS if it has as convincing portatos ('hairpins') as I know some other libraries have. The fact that they have 5 dynamic layers is also a big thing for me.)

EDIT: here are some SSS and SCS (and other) legato examples.



Anyone here who wants to post the same or a similar phrase done with the SAS cello?


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## muziksculp (Feb 5, 2022)

Hi,

With regards to Spitfire Audio's Appassionata Strings 'Impulse Legato' , I asked about it on the Spitfire Forum, and got this feedback from a moderator .

*Quote : *

"_ the Impulse Legato is similar to the Performance Legato found in other libraries, but has a few key differences that are unique to Appassionata. The main difference is that the Impulse Legato in Appassionata plays legato transitions based on interval, as well as playing speed and intensity. This is covered in further detail on page 23 of the user manual._ "

And here is what page 23 of the user manual mentions :

"LEGATO

The core legato technique - a combination
of slurred & détaché intervals, in up to 3
dynamics (pp, mf, ff), with repetition based
alt-attacks, vibrato and velocity controlled
switching between legato types.

Violins 1, Violins 2 and Cellos also include a
particularly unique and intense Portamento,
on the top string (from high E on Violins,
from high A on Cellos) for intervals over a
5th.

LEGATO INFORMATION
CC1 Dynamic peak points:
ff - 127 (100%)
f - 95 (75%)
mf - 64 (50%)
mp - 31 (25%)
pp - 9 (7.5%)

Slurred transitions for all instruments
sections occur between Velocities 1-99 and
overlapping the MIDI notes.

Détaché transitions for all instruments occur
between Velocities 100-127 and overlapping
the MIDI notes.

Portamento transitions are
available for Violins 1, Violins 2 and Cellos
between Velocities 120-127 and overlapping
the MIDI notes, but only from E4 on Violins
for intervals over a 5th, and from A2 on
Cellos for intervals over a 5th.

The Legato Offset control changes all
interval types so you can go from 100ms
(responsive) to 150ms (more latency but
sounds more natural).

LEGATO SLURRED
A slurred legato, with 3 dynamics of slurred
intervals and repetition based alt-attacks.

SUSTAIN
A sustained note, recorded at 5 discrete
dynamics (pp, mp, mf, f, ff) with Vibrato, and
4 round robbins.

HAIRPIN SHORT
A short hairpin, utilising the alt-attacks.

HAIRPIN MEDIUM
A medium hairpin, utilising the body of the
alt-attacks.

HAIRPIN BOW CHANGE
A long hairpin, featuring the bow-change
used in capturing the sustain.

GLANCING ATTACK
A short brushed bow, ideal for accenting
notes."


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

Hi,

Since this is a Legato focused thread, here is a short video I made showing how to apply the Pixelpoet Legato Edit/Trick to Kontakt Libraries, since I couldn't find any videos showing how to do this trick on YouTube. I hope you find it helpful, and useful for you.

I used Heavyocity's NOVO Strings as an example in my video, the midi data is identical for both the Preset, and Pixelpoet versions. So are the Mixer settings.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Trash Panda (Feb 22, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> It only just hit me that i used an extended metaphor, I'm sorry everyone!


It’s more of a simile than a metaphor, but that’s just the OCD talking. 😛


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## Casiquire (Feb 22, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> It’s more of a simile than a metaphor, but that’s just the OCD talking. 😛


Oh good, then I'm safe!


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