# Conductors ahead of the beat



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

You know, I've tried to understand this ever since I first watched Zubin Mehta. Last night we went to a concert at Disney with Marin Alsop conducting, and I still don't get it. 

Why do some conductors conduct way ahead of the beat? What's the rationale? It's not even in time - they're just way ahead.

I remember asking the same question of my conducting teacher at Berklee, saying that I simply couldn't follow Zubin Mehta. His answer was, "Either can the orchestra." 

Yet both Mehta and Alsop are obviously able to keep the orchestra together pretty well. So there's something that I'm missing. It seems 100% counterintuitive to me!

Maybe I'd understand it if I'd ever played in an orchestra with a conductor that did that, but I haven't.

By the way it's not just the delay that I'm seeing - of course I understand that.


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## bryla (Dec 13, 2008)

Maybe it's the delay of the sound?

Well, I played in an orchestra under David Ridell couple of years ago, and I once tried to test this, since I read that there were two different schools on conducting on this matter. During a oboe/piano solo I found that the oboe had always been WAY behind what David conducted. With me taking conducting lessons at that time and playing in a couple of orchestras I had the oppinion that everybody followed best the conductor that was on the beat - John Frederiksen or Frans Rasmussen for example - who I also played with. So during the solo, I forced my self to play on the beats David was conducting instead of on the beats the oboe was playing. Retake, retake, retake.... long story short, David got pissed, I got pissed.....

Never found out why he did so....

just wanted to say: Two different conducting schools. I prefer not Mr. Ridell's


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## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2008)

Well, you are right it is really funny. But it works.

If you want to understand how the conductor feels then think of it like you had to record on an audio system with big latency. Or you would perform (talk) on a big stage where the speaker distance causes a delay. In both cases you would get used to it after a while, you would not even notice any more.

This is regarding the conductor's perspective, they get used to it.

Now what about the players?

When I was playing as a concert master it was _my _responsibility to keep the group really tight by moving my upper body and violin. I was basically a second conductor that translated the signals that were coming from the real conductor.

This was a little weird at times. The conductor would give a beat, then, after a blink of an eye, I would wave my violin, and then, after one more blink, I really began to play for not to start before the rest of the section. Quite some latencies to be adjusted.

Also I would always keep good eye contact with the principals of the other string sections. The conductor was waving his baton in the second floor but there were a lot of connections going on in the first floor.

So in essence this is what is happening and why it works. _The musicians are forced to listen to each other and play together like a chamber ensemble_, rather than following a metronomical baton. They must use their ears and eyes to be together ... and for many styles this works so much better in the end that some conductors avoid strict conducting deliberately. 

For recording film music the use of strict timing is established though, in conjunction with a click. But film orchestras and conductors are a different sort of breed anyhow.

My 2c, there may be other 98c at least ...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

No, it's definitely NOT the delay in the sound! That was the last sentence in my post.

Almost all conductors you see are right on the beat. If you watch old footage of Toscanini you'll see that he is. Essa Pekka Salonen is. I could go on and on.

But there are a few who aren't, and I just don't - ha ha - get the point.

This is something I've wondered about for 30 years! Nobody has been able to explain it to me.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2008)

BTW Toscanini is said to be one of the first conductors that conducted on the beat. Maybe because he had been an orchestra cellist himself before.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

Thanks Hannes. I do understand intellectually how musicians can get used to it and I understand the role of the concertmaster, but of course the latency is only in sound, not light. What I can't understand is how a conductor would feel it that way and what the benefit is. To me it's positively bizarre. It's also not surprising that all the very best conductors - the ones who get the orchestra so tight it's like glue - are right on the beat.

It shouldn't make any difference whether you're using a click or not, since strict tempo is strict tempo - and by the way film music isn't always to a click; free timing to streamers is still a very common technique.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

"BTW Toscanini is said to be one of the first conductors that conducted on the beat."

That's interesting. I'd never heard that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

Also, I can understand feeling the music like the baton point is extracting the sound rather than pointing at the beats, but that would still make the point much closer to the sound than these freaky conductors are. 

And can you imagine trying to play, say, Stravinsky with a conductor doing that shite? You'd go crazy!


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## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Thanks Hannes. I do understand intellectually how musicians can get used to it and I understand the role of the concertmaster, but of course the latency is only in sound, not light. What I can't understand is how a conductor would feel it that way and what the benefit is.



Like I said, they force the musicians to listen.

Of course, if in anybody's ranking those conductors are the best that are getting the orchestra the tightest, then the conducting on the beat is the best system.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

"Like I said, they force the musicians to listen"

Then the conductor may as well go home! Musicians have to listen no matter what!

I was taught that the most important job when you're conducting is to make the musicians feel comfortable. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that - you have to interpret the music, lead with your immense charisma, and more importantly wave your hair around  - but number one is holding the ensemble together!


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## Thonex (Dec 13, 2008)

I've conducted a bunch of times for smaller section and a few times for full orchestra, but every time it was for film or tv and there was a click track. So, I conducted to the click (the players all wore headphones) and since the players were all so good, I was mostly there for interpretation, dynamics and whatnot. But even if there wasn't a click, I'd conduct to the beat. 

Having said that, there is definitely a delay (seems most with the string sections) when conducting legato parts.... but I haven't conducted enough without a click to really get a full grasp of the reaction of the orchestra to a conductor without click.

T


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## poseur (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Musicians have to listen no matter what!


nick
--- and this is not meant disengenuously ---
have you ever performed with an orchestra?
d


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

From playing in ensembles I know that your natural instinct is to play on the beat you see being outlined with the baton, Andrew. And the delay is going to be constant - it's because of the distance, not (for all intents and purposes) because of the musicians' reaction time.

I've conducted small ensembles live with no click, and the players have always been right with me. On the other hand I *feel* the beat where it is, not some superfreaky ahead of beat stuff, so they're probably going to be right with me. 

The other thing is that in the conducting we do it's normal to dispense with a lot of the bullshit so you can just get the job done. It's sort of different.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

poseur: Yes, quite a lot.

And I don't think my question should sound like I haven't!


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## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> "Like I said, they force the musicians to listen"
> 
> Then the conductor may as well go home! Musicians have to listen no matter what!
> 
> I was taught that the most important job when you're conducting is to make the musicians feel comfortable. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that - you have to interpret the music, lead with your immense charisma, and more importantly wave your hair around  - but number one is holding the ensemble together!



Hehe ...

I translate from the memoirs of Otto Strasser (Vienna Philharmonics) describing the conducting style of Wilhelm Furtwaengler:

"Very rarely he conducted the schoolmasterly beat, sometimes we had to look it up ourselves. A speciality were his downbeats, so the signs at the fortissimo-chords of the Coriolan ouverture. He moved in a zig-zag downwards, and being there he wiggled from right to left several times. When one had to start playing to that movement was a matter of free choice, the art was just to do it at the same time with all the others. How we managed that was a miracle for us as for the audience, and when our timpanist Hans Gaertner was asked when exactly to begin playing to such a downbeat he said: "When we loose patience".

"Actually Furtwaengler followed a very dedicated purpose with that conducting style, and he explained that [in several publications] ... Playing music in such a way demanded the highest level of concentration and listening, also such chords never sounded hard or gross. Sound, expression, dynamical differences, that were the main aspects that he demanded from us in rehearsal and concert. In the realisation of his intentions and imaginations he was masterly, and just his queer conducting style made us playing like 'normal' movements would not have been able to."


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## bryla (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> No, it's definitely NOT the delay in the sound! That was the last sentence in my post.
> .


I didn't read the last line, but if you read my post, you'll see that I know it is not the delay... It was a stupid comment


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## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2008)

Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> BTW Toscanini is said to be one of the first conductors that conducted on the beat. Maybe because he had been an orchestra cellist himself before.



After re-reading in the literature I must correct this. Furtwaengler was the first conductor working with the vienna philharmonics that did not conduct 'on tick'. That is why this is described so deliberately, it was new for them at that time.

With Krauss and Toscanini they returned to playing on the tick later.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

"I didn't read the last line, but if you read my post, you'll see that I know it is not the delay... It was a stupid comment"

No no, I didn't want to sound huffy. I'm just...well, intense about this.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

"Very rarely he conducted the schoolmasterly beat, sometimes we had to look it up ourselves."

The comments about Furtwaengler are saying something different from this, but I have to point out what's probably obvious: there's a big difference between being schoolmasterly (sticking to the basic conducting patterns, conducting every beat, etc.) and conducting way ahead of the beat.

I've never seen a professional symphony conductor do the former, of course (except maybe John Williams). They always paint the picture of what they want to hear in the air.

But there was an extreme example of how bizarre I think this is was in the concert last night. At the end of the Brahms violin concerto there are bunch of V I V I V I ending ensemble chord hits that go out of time for emphasis, and Marin Alsop looked at the soloist (Nikolaj Znaider - who's amazing) for the timing. She even conducted those ahead of the beat!

Again, what's the point?! You may as well just watch the fiddler. There's nothing artsy or unschoolmasterly about that - you're just saying "play the f-ing chord NOW!"

And as a matter of fact one of the hits was a little off because of that.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> "Like I said, they force the musicians to listen"
> 
> Then the conductor may as well go home! Musicians have to listen no matter what!



You are right here of course. But what is meant here is that e.g. the 1st violinists should ideally be fully aware of all the other voices, especially the bass line plus the strings middle voices ... and that constantly while playing their own voice. This is a sort of musical multitasking and leads to a tightness that is different from the tightness that comes from watching a baton while sight-reading. I am not saying it is better or worse, just different.

This is a reason why some conductors consider those orchestras to be the best that have the most string quartets in their rows.

EDIT
Nick, I first thought you asked a question and I tried to explain the how and why as good as I can. Because I have been there. However it seems you just want to give a statement of disagreement with certain conductors or their style ... in that case my explanations are moot of course because then they don't really hit the target.


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## PolarBear (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> "Like I said, they force the musicians to listen"
> 
> Then the conductor may as well go home! Musicians have to listen no matter what!


Did you see Lorin Maazal doing just that at the Pyongyang concert? The orchestra played the overture to "Candide" conducterless as an homage to Bernstein.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

"However it seems you just want to give a statement of disagreement with certain conductors or their style ... in that case my explanations are moot of course because then they don't really hit the target."

Not at all, I'm quite sincere! While I do have a preexisting opinion (based on my experience), I still haven't heard what I'd consider an answer that makes sense to me...and I'm just replying with the objections in my mind that are preventing the answers from making sense. What you're saying about string sections is interesting, though, because while I play a little cello and understand that there are sort of two conductors, it's interesting to hear your description from a violinist's perspective.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> What you're saying about string sections is interesting, though, because while I play a little cello and understand that there are sort of two conductors, it's interesting to hear your description from a violinist's perspective.



... a violinist that has played in professional orchestras both under conductors that battoned 'on tick' and others that didn't.

So my explanations may not make sense for you but at least I can say it works, and that is not hearsay but empirical from my side. At least it works better than my clumsy efforts to explain the phenomenon.


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## rgames (Dec 13, 2008)

Re: Conducting off the beat

Was the conductor ahead or the orchestra behind? It's all relative 

And what was the piece being performed? If it's a consistent duple or triple feel, then it probably doesn't matter to the orchestra. If it's something jumping in and out of mixed meters, then it could be a problem. Of course, that still doesn't answer the question of why the conductor is off beat. Blame that on artistry.

I wonder what the rehearsals were like - is it just part of the show or a consistent behavior? I've been in several orchestras where the conductor is fairly metronomic in rehearsal then goes off into some other world for the performance. The conductor's a performer, too...

rgames


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## synergy543 (Dec 13, 2008)

Nick, I'm so glad you asked this question. I "wanted" to ask, but was too embarrassed. :oops: Yet today, I was watching Dudamel again and thinking about this exact problem.

http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thesounde ... sts/jun08/

At about 1m58s you can see him hoping up and down like a bunny what looks like to the off beats (he's always ahead). He looks like the Sting doing a Reggae hop. I just couldn't figure it out. And you can also see this off-beat conducting in many othò®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB®i   ŽB ®i   ŽB!®i   ŽB"®i   ŽB#®i   ŽB$®i   ŽB%®i   ŽB&®i   ŽB'®i   ŽB(®i   ŽB)®i   ŽB*®i   ŽB+®i   ŽB,®i   ŽB-®i   ŽB.®i   ŽB/®i   ŽB0®i   ŽB1®i   ŽB2®i   ŽB3®i   ŽB4®i   ŽB5®i   ŽB6®i   ŽB7®i   ŽB8®i   ŽB9®i   ŽB:®i   ŽB;®i   ŽB<®i   ŽB=®i   ŽB>®i   ŽB?®i   Ž[email protected]®i   ŽBA®i   ŽBB®i   ŽBC®i   ŽBD®i   ŽBE®i   ŽBF®i   ŽBG®i   ŽBH®i   ŽBI®i   ŽBJ®i   ŽBK®i   ŽBL®i   ŽBM®i   ŽBN®i   ŽBO®i   ŽBP®i   ŽBQ®i   ŽBR®i   ŽBS®i   ŽBT®i   ŽBU®i   ŽBV®i   ŽBW®i   ŽBX®i   ŽBY®i   ŽBZ®i   ŽB[®i   ŽB\®i   ŽB]®i   ŽB^®i   ŽB_®i   ŽB`®i   ŽBa®i   ŽBb®i   ŽBc®i   ŽBd®i   ŽBe®i   ŽBf®i   ŽBg®i   ŽBh®i   ŽBi®i   ŽBj®i   ŽBk®i   ŽBl®i   ŽBm®i   ŽBn®i   ŽBo®i   ŽBp®i   ŽBq®i   ŽBr®i   ŽBs®i   ŽBt®i   ŽBu®i   ŽBv®i


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## synergy543 (Dec 14, 2008)

Thonex @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> Well... that is what I use my left had for (I'm right handed and conduct with the right :wink: ). My right hand conducts to the beat and my left communicates the dynamics and whatnot. But that's me... and again... I've pretty much only "really" conducted with a click.



Now that makes sense Thonex and I can do that - it actually feels quite natural. I just can't understand what Dudamel's doing conducting on the upbeats (or so it seems).

But nevertheless, its the conductor's emotion that really interests me at the moment as I try to think of how to incorporate this type of expression in a MIDI performances - and some pieces I've heard seem to achieve quite well. The big difference being that we lay tracks one-by-one and don't have the immediate interactivity, eye-contact, and emotional fire that can happen between a conductor and an orchestra in a live setting. So the question for me is, how to re-create this experience?


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## Brian Ralston (Dec 14, 2008)

Nick,

It is probably more the case that the orchestra (under the direction of these conductors you are referring to), is more playing behind the beat given, rather than on the beat given. It is fairly common in the classical world with "older" groups. Not meaning age. Older in terms of style. And that style usually is set by the conductor in residence. 

By definition, as a conductor leading the group, the conductor should conduct what he/she wants and express everything that needs to be said through the baton. I have always been taught when studying conducting formally that a conductor who conducts to the beat of the music they are hearing performed in front of them is not leading the group, they are following it. To lead a group and lead in terms of tempo and expression, a conductor must conduct what they are hearing in their heads and it is the orchestra as a whole that is either trained or use to following that exactly or somewhat delayed. 

I agree with you that it is weird and annoying and one of the things that I like about working with studio musicians (especially here in LA), is that they are very use to following the baton ictus exactly. The only thing I fault them with is that sometimes the studio musicians are so use to playing with click that if you ever want to go off of click when possible to be more expressive, they can get kind of annoyed at not having it. (And they will complain). I would much rather record stuff following streamers, punches and a clock rather than a click because it is that give and take on the tempo that (in my opinion) makes an orchestral score even more expressive. But, I do appreciate the consistency of having the click from take to take. I see both sides. 

Anyway...that is now going off on a tangent...


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## Brian Ralston (Dec 14, 2008)

synergy543 @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> So the question for me is, how to re-create this experience?



Start by not quantizing ANYTHING. Play every part in individually and allow the tiny variations in attack and release to stay in the midi (...within reason of course, given the inherent buffer delays with some virtual instruments). 

:wink:


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## synergy543 (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, but what keeps the separate MIDI parts glued together as a coherent whole when you start adding tempo expression? I suppose only a guide or a click.

And back on topic...what holds the orchestra together (particularly the different sections) when the conductor is leading the tempo and the orchestra is following with a delay?


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## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2008)

synergy543 @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> The big difference being that we lay tracks one-by-one and don't have the immediate interactivity, eye-contact, and emotional fire that can happen between a conductor and an orchestra in a live setting. So the question for me is, how to re-create this experience?



Some things that I have used, there probably are many more:

- Record your singing of a passage and adjust the beat grid to that audio once (probably the best method)

- Record your piano playing (midi), adjust it until it fits, bounce to audio and adjust the beat grid to that

- Use miditapper

- Adjust the tempo map after the fact



> And back on topic...what holds the orchestra together (particularly the different sections) when the conductor is leading the tempo and the orchestra is following with a delay?



Again, ears and experience. Every orchestra player has to learn the right amout of delay, this is part of the apprenticeship to section playing. Think of a horse that is running in a heard or a bird flying in a swarm, it is all about permanent adjustion.

If you start playing in an orchestra, especially as a string player you quickly figure out this: If you start too early with a note you will immediately stick out of the group and ruin the section sound. And everybody near you will know who it was. If you start a little too late nobody will notice and the section sound is preserved. So to be sure you better onset the latest moment that is still in the pocket.

This leads to a culture of cautiousness and delay that can give a certain magic to soft passages. It is a tradition and an art in itself. Whether you like that or not is your choice of course.

As a general rule of thumb watch the 'one' in a bar, especially the big 'ones' (every second, fourth, eigth, sixteenth bar etc.) Never play them too early in slow passages. The late 'one' is a real asset.


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## Rob (Dec 14, 2008)

FWIW, I'm completely with Nick on this... I hate that way of conducting and find it plain wrong. I've performed in orchestra many times (as a flutist) and have always preferred those (rare) directors who want you to play "on the beat". A strong sense of rhythm is not so common in classical orchestras anyway... so that may also be a reason .


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## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2008)

Hmm ...

I currently feel surrounded by people that spend a lifetime on emulating orchestras but basically think that real orchestras do it all wrong.

Today I have even learnt that classical orchestras do not have a strong sense of rhythm. Did not know that before.

Riding a child bike with training wheels is easier than riding a motor bike. Because on the child bike if you steer to the right then it goes to the right, but on the motor bike you have to anticipate the change with your whole body or else you fly out of the curve ...


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## synergy543 (Dec 14, 2008)

Great suggestions Hannes. I'll have to try your shifting grid idea (need to study on how to do that).

And I get what you're saying about "swarming" with sections such as the violin. But what about the poor trumpet players? One slip up and they stand out like a sore thumb - yet, so often (with good players) those guys are spot on.

I feel like I'm taking over Nicks thread...sorry Nick. But what the heck, old guys like him are probably asleep by now. /\~O :roll:


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## IvanP (Dec 14, 2008)

Interesting topic!

I just started my conducting studies, and we are learning here the Celibidache technique, which is not on the beat, but neither way ahead...we have to be only one pulse ahead...to be more specific, we have to announce any "important" event a pulse in advance, as an anacrusis, this would allow to follow music very near but not "dance to the music" but rather be able to control it and enjoy it at the same time 

Btw, I feel like Harry Potter with my brand new baton!! 8)


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## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2008)

synergy543 @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> And I get what you're saying about "swarming" with sections such as the violin. But what about the poor trumpet players? One slip up and they stand out like a sore thumb - yet, so often (with good players) those guys are spot on.



synergy, too much of anything is not good. So a good conductor will adjust his 'pulse ahead' amount to the situation. Exposed brass attacks are generally conducted tighter. But still there is a delay often and the right amount of that is a question of experience.

Also usually the trumpet section is lead by the first solo which gives additional help to the other trumpeters by his inbreath and small instrument movements. This helps the section to be tighter in itself.

Additionally the mindset of an orchestra trumpeter has to be different than that of a violinist. Imagine there has been an orchestra buildup of several minutes and now you have to place one high note on top of that ... you must do that without any mental hesitation or you will fail. Sports car drivers are welcome in high brass. According to that brass players prefer more direct and unhesitated conducting of their onsets.

The precision of such attacks comes not so much from the movement on that very beat anyhow but by the very distinct conduction of the pickup (anacrusis) beat.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2008)

BTW each instrument group has its own set of felt delays and anticipations for making it all fit. For example for big hits the basses will often begin to play in advance, in extreme cases up to half a second.


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## Waywyn (Dec 14, 2008)

Well I didn't read through every single post, but isn't it simply that 50 to 80 people are always behind when playing? I can imagine if you stand up there trying to conduct an orchestra you have to be a strong "commandeur and leader", otherwise the orchestra would always run away or slow down ... and if the conductor is bad the whole orchestra pulls him with.

We recently had an orchestra session and the conductor was really cool, but as soon as (only) he had a click on his ears you could definitely hear every nuance of how the orchestra kinda stumbles around in the timeline 

Also I have the understanding that timing, click or whatever relates to measures is not the same as a e.g. pop drummer. While the drummer really have to nail almost every millisecond the orchestra uses the timing for feel. You almost never have 30 pieces of strings coming all together without having a 32 or 64th note clush.

So basically if a conductor is strong and knows what he is doing he have to be able to be one step ahead as Ivan already mentioned. He already has to see the upcoming time change before the orchestra is there.


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## TheoKrueger (Dec 14, 2008)

I think i understand -what- they are doing but i don't understand why they are doing it.

Here are some pictures that came to mind when you spoke of conductors:

Imagine this hand making a round movement and captured with an open shutter on the camera for a few seconds. It's as if the conductor is imagining the movement in time. (sorry the pic is not perfect, found it on the net)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3138/2676971972_6c80c43c60.jpg?v=0

And here's a picture of rhythmic gymnastics, if the person wants the tail of the cord to be at a specific point after some time, it must start the movement a few seconds before.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_ySCIT3KO9Zc...aZe8YIHHoo/s1600-h/rhythmic_gymnastics_01.jpg

Don't know if this helps at all or if its of any value, its the only way i can understand the usage of being ahead of the beat in my mind.

cheerios,
Theo

PS: And here's two naked persons in anatomy class captured by a motion camera:

http://www.ivygateblog.com/wp-content/u ... idding.jpg


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## Daryl (Dec 14, 2008)

There are many, many facets to the technical side of conducting an orchestra (and this is something that I earned my living at for over 10 years), but here are a few things to bear in mind:

1) Different music requires different conducting techniques.
2) Different instruments require different sorts of beats, including differing amounts of definition to the beats.
3) Brass and percussion players are further away, so mainly the strings play late in order to play with what they hear, and not necessarily with what they see.
4) The beat is not always where non-conductors think it should be.
5) Conducting may include the beat, but is not about the beat.
6) Conducting to click has absolutely nothing to do with conducting, in most cases.
7) Most composers can't conduct.
8) Most conductors can't conduct.

D


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## Rob (Dec 14, 2008)

Hannes_F @ 14th December 2008 said:


> Hmm ...
> 
> ...
> 
> Today I have even learnt that classical orchestras do not have a strong sense of rhythm. Did not know that before....



forgive my unsuccesful attempt to be funny


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## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2008)

Rob @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Hannes_F @ 14th December 2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm ...
> ...



OK. But only if you forgive me being so unnecessarily serious about this topic. :wink: :mrgreen:


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## Rob (Dec 14, 2008)

Hannes_F @ 14th December 2008 said:


> OK. But only if you forgive me being so unnecessarily serious about this topic. :wink: :mrgreen:



o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

All those are true, Darryl, but they're all incorporated whether the conductor is ahead of or on the beat (of course). So is the speed of sound, answering other peeps. Of course the bass drum plays at the front of the beat and other instruments play later; the give and take of ensemble playing is obviously what makes it an ensemble.

Brian R, I'm afraid I can't agree that it's wrong for orchestras to play on the beat. If Toscanini and Salonen command that, it's not wrong. 

Kays, my mind's gone blank what his name was, but he was fricking great - really inspiring. George was his first name, and he was South American. He was a little guy who used a big baton, conducted with a big pattern very fluidly, but taught us a really economical technique that could express everything just with the baton. You can jump around and use your left hand, but at our level we needed to do it with the baton first. Just a magnificent teacher, a fascinating guy, and what he showed us in advanced conducting (maybe it was called Conducting 4?) sticks with me today, 27 years later.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

Can you imagine someone conducting L'Histoire du Soldat or Octet for Winds (Igor) ahead of the beat?

Those are chamber pieces and don't always have a conductor, but wow would that be tough.


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## Daryl (Dec 14, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> All those are true, Darryl, but they're all incorporated whether the conductor is ahead of or on the beat (of course). So is the speed of sound, answering other peeps. Of course the bass drum plays at the front of the beat and other instruments play later; the give and take of ensemble playing is obviously what makes it an ensemble.


The conductor can't be ahead of the beat. He produces the beat. It can only be the orchestra playing behind the beat. I can tell you that all orchestras have their own timing, and unless you spend a lot of time with that particular orchestra, you tamper with their timing at your peril. If there is a time lag, you just get used to it, in the same way that an Cathedral organist gets used to playing the feet before the hands.

D


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## Thonex (Dec 14, 2008)

Daryl @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> 7) Most composers can't conduct.
> 8 ) Most conductors can't conduct.
> 
> D



:lol: said in true "Daryl" fashion.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

"The conductor can't be ahead of the beat."

Semantics. The same orchestra will play at the point or well after the point with different conductors, and it's the conductor who commands that rather than the players. I bleedin' seen it.

And yes, it is as much of a delay as an organ has - which underlines my point to other people that this is not because of the speed of sound; those delays are in the single millisecond range, which is barely perceptible. (Sound travels roughly a foot per millisecond - actually 1.1 ms depending on elevation and atmospheric conditions.)


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## Brian Ralston (Dec 14, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Brian R, I'm afraid I can't agree that it's wrong for orchestras to play on the beat. If Toscanini and Salonen command that, it's not wrong.



I never said it was right or wrong. It is a choice and a style...group by group...usually set by the conductor in residence. There is intent behind it and there are benefits for it and criticisms of it. :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

Well, then I still disagree just for fun. 

So what ARE the benefits? I still haven't heard a good answer other than Hannes', which I understand but am still not really down wit.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

"I feel like I'm taking over Nicks thread...sorry Nick. But what the heck, old guys like him are probably asleep by now."

That's right, even though when I turned 75 I found myself needing less sleep.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 14, 2008)

This is a well known phenomenon which I remember was discussed in a college class I took. There's a bit of a gap between the players response and the conductors gestures. It's a general sort of thing that goes along with more specific issue like slower speaking instruments (like French Horns) coming in unison with the orchestra on a downbeat (which requires a specific baton movement.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

The thing is, it's not like the conductor suddenly jabs his arm forward to indicate a downbeat and it appears at the point from nowhere * - you have the preparation before it to show the players where it's going to be, and they can see it traveling there. That applies to expressive movements too - you show them before they're played, of course.

And - sorry to go on and on - when the conductor is on the beat, players adjust automatically for the time it takes the wind to get through their instruments so they speak. In other words I'm still looking for good answers. 


(*Actually I once played in a terrible ensemble in which that was exactly what he did! It was a miserable experience. As Darryl called it, the conductor was the composer...and the music sucked too.)


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## Daryl (Dec 15, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> "The conductor can't be ahead of the beat."
> 
> Semantics. The same orchestra will play at the point or well after the point with different conductors, and it's the conductor who commands that rather than the players. I bleedin' seen it.


I don't believe that it is semantics. The conductor controls the beat, so it has to be the orchestra playing late. You may have seen it, but I have conducted many orchestras, so I've felt it.

D


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## Ashermusic (Dec 15, 2008)

Try closing your eyes for 5 minutes while listening. Does the music sound ahead of the beat? Probably not, because the orchestra and conductor are locked in. 

As Daryl said, the specific orchestra, the style of music, the acoustics, etc. may influence the conductor's choices.


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## Hans Adamson (Dec 15, 2008)

> I currently feel surrounded by people that spend a lifetime on emulating orchestras but basically think that real orchestras do it all wrong.


I understand Hannes reaction here. My sister is a cellist, and I once asked her about this, and she was very casual about it, just saying that its just a different style of some conductors. It was just part of her reality, playing under different conductors all the time, she had learnt to adjust. I can see the advantage of being ahead as a conductor because you get more time to communicate your intention before it is played.


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## Lpp (Dec 15, 2008)

I know I´m late on this, but a stay at the hospital has delayed my response. But as I see, this thread is about delay, so you are the conductors and I play the orchestra :mrgreen: 

We once spoke to our conductor at an orchestra session and he said nearly the same as waywyn stated from our latest session with another conductor.
He said, that he must try to be ahead, because once he is on the beat, the orchestra starts to be lazy and gets slower ( unintentional ) and then his normal reaction as a human being would be to go with the new beat, 70 people are giving him. Then again the orchestra gets slower and so it goes round.
Remember, here we have a 70 : 1 situation and the conductor must keep the reins in his hands. He told me, if he ever looses his ahead-timing, the orchestra is too weak to be accelerated. Think of a bucket of water... if you spin it some rounds, you can even stop and the water goes on in the same direction. An orchestra has its own physics and is a large mass, that needs to be moved.

But... I also noticed, that it depends on the music. On our sessions, we often have a great variety of tempos and styles and the conductor is sometimes more accurate that on another piece. That´s in his own experience when he has to be more or less ahead.

Cheers,


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## Evan Gamble (Dec 15, 2008)

I asked Sam Adler about this..

He responded "their is no reason, just a style of conducting"

He also went on to say that he doesn't like it and thinks that the younger conductors are rightfully not using it.


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## Daryl (Dec 15, 2008)

Evan Gamble @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I asked Sam Adler about this..
> 
> He responded "their is no reason, just a style of conducting"
> 
> He also went on to say that he doesn't like it and thinks that the younger conductors are rightfully not using it.


Younger conductors are not using what? Younger than whom?

D


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2008)

That style, and younger than you.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2008)

George Monseur is his name, Kays. A friend of mine reminded me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2008)

"He said, that he must try to be ahead, because once he is on the beat, the orchestra starts to be lazy and gets slower ( unintentional ) and then his normal reaction as a human being would be to go with the new beat, 70 people are giving him. Then again the orchestra gets slower and so it goes round."

We're getting some good answers here, but I'm afraid I can't buy that one. Like other scary conductors, Toscanini would have used his baton to impale any member of the orchestra who wasn't exactly with it. And I haven't noticed the orchestra dragging when Salonen conducts.


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## gmet (Feb 26, 2009)

Sorry to drag this old subject up but I have only just seen it and feel an urge to reply.

I conduct as a profession and, for what it's worth, I find it tends to be the musicians that play behind the beat. Unless you are quite adamant, within the first few minutes of a rehearsal, to get them on the beat you have lost the opportunity.

It is a bit like rehearsing something slightly too fast or slow than you want it, and then trying to get the orchestra to change - almost impossible!

Interestingly I conducted a session in the studio about two weeks ago. The musicians and I all had headphones on and performed to a click track. Some of the musicians were still behind the beat.

I suppose at the end of the day the conductor is not really there to beat time. He is there to extract a musical performance from the orchestra - different conductors just have different ways of doing it.

My two penneth worth!

Justin

p.s. If we didn’t have different tastes and performance preferences in music we might as well program a computer and press play – Ah almost forgot – that’s what this forum is about!!!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 26, 2009)

We were taught that the first job of the conductor is to make the musicians comfortable and hold it all together. That doesn't mean you must stick to the basic patterns and be a metronome, of course, but to me a clear indication of the beat is front and center - whether it's "get the job done" studio conducting (the only kind I've ever done or aspired to) or concert hall conducting.

I've seen the LA Phil under ahead of beat and on beat conductors. These musicians do what the conductor intends, although I'm not sure how they decide which it is. And they don't drag either way.

There are a few posts in this thread that make it sound like the phenomenon is imaginary. It isn't.


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## gmet (Feb 26, 2009)

Nick,

What you are suggesting is not at all imaginary - it happens all the time. As a player I find it extremely frustrating; however I have played under some very inspiring conductors who conduct ahead of the beat. Horses for courses etc.

There is a great DVD available of the 'Masters' at work - highly recommended:
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Conducting-Great-Conductors-Past/dp/B00005V30T (http://www.amazon.com/Art-Conducting-Gr ... B00005V30T)

There is one clip where an orchestra is rehearsing and suddenly the sound changes without explanation, until the camera pans round and Klemperer (I think) walks in the room. It just shows what the mere presence of a great conductor can make. The same could of course be said for the opposite.

Justin


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## ozmorphasis (Jun 24, 2009)

Even though this thread is pretty old, I just came across it and thought that I'd throw in my two cents/sense as someone who has spent a fair amount of time conducting and obsessing about conducting.

There are two main points to consider in my opinion, and then many other smaller details that help explain this phenomenon.

The main two are:

1. The larger the ensemble, the more it will naturally have a larger delay in response to your beat, especially in slow legato textures. Try conducting a string quartet with a staccato fast texture. They will play much closer to your beat than a romantic/modern size orchestra playing Adagio for Strings. This is a lot like the difference between steering a 15ft boat, and steering a giant barge. One turns on a dime, the other reacts in a different way. People like Toscanini and Esa-Pekka Salonen (in more recent times) have had to INSIST on having the players play on the beat in order to get what they wanted. I actually saw EPS do this during many rehearsals when I worked for the LA Phil. 

2.(Here's where it gets much more elusive unless you've had a lot of first-hand experience). For musical lines where the inner tension is the key ingredient, it is the space between the notes and the WAY that you move from one note to the next where all of your expressive potential lies. This is where you see Fuertwangler shining, while a Toscanini goes for a more clear and etched architecture of sound. Therefore, if you are trying to be very precise about this more fluid and mysterious approach to phrasing, it is essential that you paint the shape before the players are playing it. Otherwise there is no way to make the magic. The players have a sixth sense when working with an inspired conductor, but they are not mind readers.

In addition to the above, it has a huge effect on timbre. There is a reason why even a huge orchestra will play Rite of Spring on the beat, and will play a slow movement of Brahms way behind the beat. One sound is all about precision and clarity (even in the slow and mysterious parts), and the other is...well, very hard to put into words. This is also why, once an orchestra has technically overcome the challenges of a behemoth like Rite of Spring, it actually continues to be hugely challenged by Brahms/Mozart/etc, while the Rite actually becomes easier.

God, it's an endless subject and one that I could study forever. Needless to say, all of this has a huge impact on my ability to "believe" in what's possible with samples. 

How does one begin to shape that mysteriously evolving tension in between the notes with samples? When I was studying conducting in Vienna, I spoke at length with a horn player from the Vienna Philharmonic. He had hundreds of different ways of attacking a note and connecting them JUST FOR THE DIFFERENT CONTEXTS WITHIN MOZART WORKS!! This was aside from how he would approach other composers!

I guess it's always a question of what's important to you, and if you're willing to develop the techniques (technology) to express what you hear and feel. It's all possible, but certainly the developers of these libraries are NOT obsessing over details in that kind of way. Or are they? And are they musical details, or simply sonic? There is a difference, although the two certainly are married and inform one another.

In light of this, it is great to see that LASS is born of a working composers wishlist. It would be interesting if a library was developed that had a "board of directors" or advisory comittee that consisted of representation from world class chamber music players, conductors, singers, programmers, sample developers, and recording engineers. What if they ALL had to be happy with the results before it was released?

Time to install my copy of Silk that just arrived! o-[][]-o 
Ok, enough rambling! 

O


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2009)

Thanks for that post, ozmorphasis. Very interesting.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2009)

One question: is the implication that you disagree with EPS' conscious choice to conduct Brahms, etc. on the beat?


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## ozmorphasis (Jun 26, 2009)

Hmm, this could become a slippery slope very quickly as I could already be pidgeonholing EP's conducting style way too much. The truth is that he is very much ahead of the orchestra in slower and softer passages even in Brahms.

I will say that EPS is an incredible conductor with certain pieces and composers. His Ravel, Debussy, Stravinsky, Lutoslawski, and Bartok are amazing. And, I've seen this guy learn a very difficult new cello concerto in about 10 days before the premier during a span that included a Sony recording session of Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde (very F-ing hard to conduct), and a normal subscription style concert as well. He simply does not make mistakes, even when the load becomes insane like that.

I think that as you move closer and closer to the 20th century practices of composing, you are able to get great results just by really, really precisely following the composers indications in the score. Ravel, Stravinsky, Takemitsu. These guys all wrote obsessively detailed instructions in their scores. Precision makes these scores come alive. Thus, Boulez's great 20th century recordings. However, how can you make someone get goosebumps from the endlessly repeating eighth note accompaniment figures in the music of Mozart? That stuff only comes alive when you yourself _become_ the expression in the music. Anyway, this is perhaps getting tangential.

However, I don't know a single person that would go out of their way to buy a recording (or seek out a live performance) of Brahms, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, or Mozart by EPS. You could say the same about Pierre Boulez. Both are conductors that go more for clarity, structural integrity, and balance rather than emotionalism, personal expression, or mystery. I love both of those conductors. However, when I want the classics...there are other places to go.

I think the Phil will be reignited with Dudamel. EPS has brought many amazing developments to that organization and to that orchestra. He is a musical giant in his own way, but I know that many of the musicians are eager for a little more red-blooded temperament in certain repertoire.[/i]

Words seem to fail when discussing these things...and yet, look at how many I just wasted above in my attempt! :lol: 

O


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## stevenson-again (Jul 3, 2009)

> I conduct as a profession and, for what it's worth, I find it tends to be the musicians that play behind the beat. Unless you are quite adamant, within the first few minutes of a rehearsal, to get them on the beat you have lost the opportunit



there IS a reason for this - playing behind the beat.

it was a great shock to me when i came into an orchestra as a casual clarinetist and found everyone playing miles behind the beat. obviously i asked about this and the reason is:

people are waiting for the last moment before it is too late in order to play together. the responsibility for ensemble is actually on the musician. it is a PLAYING style not so much a conducting style. once you get into that 'style' of playing it is extremely effective. what actually happens from a wind perspective is that you prepare to play the down beat exactly on the up beat but delay the down beat so that the energy is held back and then released with more clarity and precision.

i can describe it like this: if you were to say 'puh' with engaging your vocal chords and wait a split second longer when you do it again, you will notice that more air and pressure are built up the second time and the second 'puh' is a little more explosive.

it really threw me early on in my playing career but once you get used to it, as i said, it is extremely effective way for a large group to play very precisely together and generate a little more energy on the attacks of notes or the placement of downbeats.


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## bryla (Jul 3, 2009)

Very interesting, stevenson-again

However that doesn't explain why David Riddell almost ripped my head of for playing on the beat.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Fri Jul 03 said:


> > I conduct as a profession and, for what it's worth, I find it tends to be the musicians that play behind the beat. Unless you are quite adamant, within the first few minutes of a rehearsal, to get them on the beat you have lost the opportunit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



veddy interesting.

I was lucky enough to get into the commercials business when 20-30 piece ensembles were typical. Most of the players, great NYC studio players, came from an orchestral tradition ( most of the string and winds players, some brass). Some of the brass and all of the rhythm section came from a pop tradition. The classical players seemed to have less bite to their sound, a less aggressive attack, whereas pop tracks tended to be more aggressive than classical.

As time went on, smaller ensembles and more overdubbing came along. In choosing players, I tended towards the ones who were more steeped in the pop traditions, who played harder and louder and more on the beat. I sort of weeded out the big ensemble players, which would fit with what you've said.

On a side note...after years of playing virtual instruments with latency, it's hard for me to lay back on keyboards these days. I'm always trying to beat the latency...on piano!


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## stevenson-again (Jul 3, 2009)

> However that doesn't explain why David Riddell almost ripped my head of for playing on the beat.



i can't seem to find that in the thread...can you point me?

in my playing career i played in quite a few conductor master classes and it was extremely illuminating. rule number one for a conductor - don't get in the way. i saw this first hand playing with a really great russian conductor who simply stopped conducting after giving the down beat in russlan and ludmilla and stood there smiling with hims arms folded nodding encouragement at us.

less dramatically, a lot of conductors i worked with stopped giving the beat and simply helped with expression and entries, the pace and flow of which would suggest tempo. that's the art of conducting though isn't it...playing what you do while following the conductor is a kind of psychological necessity ...you have to do it the way they suggest or would just 'feel' wrong.

but it also depends on the piece and the conductor. mostly orchestratras are VERY reluctant to change this sort of 'behind' playing. personally, on the few times i have conducted i have found it very off-putting, yet as a player (once i was used to it) absolutely invaluable for really nailing ensemble and precision.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Responding to your original question, which was: Why do conductors conduct ahead of the beat? My reaction was: Why can't it be the orchestra is behind the beat? I'm no conductor but when watching an orchestra playing we see mainly the string sections and strings at least for slow to medium speed pieces have the illusion of being behind the rest of the orchestra due to the nature of the cresc effect. It's like the the beat is heard somewhere on the 2nd half of the quarter note. So could this make sense?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 3, 2009)

It does make sense but it's not so, Guy.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 03 said:


> It does make sense but it's not so, Guy.



Kind of a contradictory statement....


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## bryla (Jul 3, 2009)

No it's not.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Well, em how about elaborating a bit more rather than being so brief?


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## JMDNYC (Jul 3, 2009)

I don't know if this observation is relevant, but I saw Riccardo Muti conduct the NY Phil recently, and he does something I've seen no other conductor do -- he'll stop moving his hands and just stand there for a little while listening. He might indicate a dynamic or an entrance, then stand around some more. Finally he'll start conducting again, usually when there is a tempo change. The orchestra plays well for him. 

The NY Phil also famously plays Bernstein pieces without a conductor in honor of the late maestro. Maybe they play more with their ears than their eyes all the time. It was Bernstein who said a conductor is an actor who acts out the music for the orchestra.

PS: The NYC-based Orpheus Chamber Orchestra is also conductor-less.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 03 said:


> It does make sense but it's not so, Guy.



Not sure why you say it isn't so Nick, the strings seems to play behind the rest of the orchestra, because of the nature of their attack. What isn't so about this?

I actually run into this problem from time to time when programming strings with the other sections.


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## bryla (Jul 3, 2009)

I can't elaborate on what Nick thinks, but objectively it's not a contradictory statement

JMDNYC: Chamber orchestra's are more often than not conductor-less - at least that's my experience


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 3, 2009)

Well, my original question in this thread was why some conductors are ahead of the beat and others are on it. Or really just the first part: why some conductors are ahead of it, because I've never been able to follow them.

This is a real phenomenon, not just the orchestra playing behind, as we've discussed throughout this thread. Zubin Mehta is way ahead, for example; Toscanini and EPS are right on it. And what makes this real rather than a philosophical paradox is that the orchestra and the conductor clearly both agree where the beat is. 

But it's no secret that some instruments speak more slowly than others. That's a different phenomenon.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 3, 2009)

JMDNYC, I've actually seen that lots of times. It's not really unusual.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

I guess I was completely off course then. :(

I think I will exit this thread.


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