# TASCAM Ceases Development of Giga



## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

"Notice: 
TEAC America, Inc. will cease further development of GIGASTUDIO and GIGASTUDIO related products as of July 21, 2008.
Product sales and technical support will continue through the end of the year. "

My heart goes out to the 5 fine programmers who have been released from duty. No doubt they have gone on to greener pastures.

This is indeed the worst possible timing for me, as I have just released a second product a matter of days ago. This product is the first of its kind, and was completely dependent upon the Giga technology. Now there is no hope of improving it beyond its present level. My heart also goes out to the other developers who have supported this platform, and been treated in this miserable way by TASCAM.

As for Wavelore's valued customers, and their need for support, we are requesting that you keep your business with us, as we intend to make our products multi-platform just as soon as is possible. Interested customers will be offered the cheapest possible (we aim for free) crossgrades when ready. Those of you who have purchased the American Zither or the Pedal Steel Guitar have all, to my knowlege gotten your product(s) to work satisfactorily. It is our aim to offer the best possible support we can under these difficult circumstances. Being that we cannot possibly fix everything that might go wrong on the many systems out there, we will be as cooperative as possible regarding returns and crossgrades.

Since both of our existing products were tested extensively before release, and since we still have contact with ex-Tascam engineers who have offered whatever help they can give us (within the scope of their terms w/Tascam), we plan to keep making them available until stock runs out. The same support and crossgrading will be offered to new customers.

Announcements to be posted on our site shortly.

Best to all,

Mark Belbin
Wavelore Instruments
www.wavelore.com


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

Please visit http://www.opengigastudio.com (www.opengigastudio.com) and make your voice heard. Not only might this be the only way for the Giga technology to live on, it may result in tremendous advance is s/w sampling.

Mark


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## the sinner (Jul 22, 2008)

RIP Giga


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

Well, yeah, if Tascam has anything to say about it.

Not if we can make this open source thing happen, though. 

Even though I'm working on porting, I won't hear any nails being driven just yet.

-M


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## Thonex (Jul 22, 2008)

Wow mark!!!! :shock: 

This totally sucks!!! Especially for all the hard work you put into your pedal steel Lib. But like you said... it works... and that's the bottom line. I'm sure GS will still be used for years to come even though it will be a discontinued product.

I'm not a GS user, but totally appreciate what it can do and it's just too sad that the disk-streaming sampler innovator is ceasing development. Plus, it was good for the market to have healthy competition with NI, ESX, Mach 5, Halion , Yellow Tools and others.

I would love for it to continue open source... how awesome would that be??

Maybe the Reaper guy should take it over... he seems to be insatiably prolific when it comes to programming audio related stuff.

Let's hope this is just a detour for now.


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## synthetic (Jul 22, 2008)

I can confirm the above statement, and can confirm that GS4 has been moved to the "discontinued" section of the website. If it's unclear at all, I can also confirm that GVI for Mac will not be released by TASCAM. I'm not permitted to discuss it any further at this time. 

As always, let me know if I can help anyone.


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## the sinner (Jul 22, 2008)

Well I hope apple bought Tascam. I hope no one here is out of a job - best wishes to the tascam people.


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## nadeama (Jul 22, 2008)

This is sad news indeed. I use both GigaStudio and Kontakt; never saw the point of choosing one over the other (budget permitting), they both have their strengths.

Giga is not going anywhere as far as I'm concerned; I'll still use it for a long time to come.

And I feel bad for all the developers, like you Mark, who have put so much time and effort into making great instruments for the platform.

I hope this open source thing can happen, but I won't hold my breath. I've seen too many times companies just kill off a product and refuse to sell it or open it up for mysterious reasons. But I hope it can happen.

Mark, I've gone to the opengigastudio web site, but I'm a bit confused. Am I supposed to sign some kind of petition? I didn't see anything like that. Anyway, if there's anything to sign I'll be glad to do it.


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## ComposerDude (Jul 22, 2008)

Wow :shock: Oh, man, Mark I'm sorry to hear that -- your Pedal Steel was on my 'must buy' list. Was waiting for the cross platform stuff to get worked out for the Mac.

Want to pay my respects to the fine software engineers of Giga who put together a marvelous product...certainly wishing them well in future endeavors.

-Peter


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## lee (Jul 22, 2008)

Sad.

But...

Why?


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## Moonchilde (Jul 22, 2008)

This is a sad day for those who cherished freedom and customization. I haven't even had a chance to jump on GS yet and was hoping to within the next 6 months. What a bummer. Sales must not have been very good, the product was just released and is relatively new, IMO.

We can thank closed platforms for this. We now have one less choice in the world of open tools. I hope Kontakt remains a viable alternative, but I can see that going the way of Giga as well with all the movement to proprietary samplers, considering every major orchestral library will now have it's very own. With out the support by the developers, the open samplers are going to die.

I'm sure NI will always have the tech and benefit of Kontakt and carry it over to their sample line of products. They will probably close their doors someday, most likely post K3.

It probably doesn't mean much, but my condolences go out to all who were involved in GS4 which IMO, was truly innovative with it's built in performance tools and modeling filters.

On another note, Mark, time to look into Kontakt. You need to keep your stuff alive some how, even if it means a "downgrade" in your eyes. Kontakt is very versatile and you could probably get pretty close to the original GS programming.


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

ComposerDude @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Your Pedal Steel was on my 'must buy' list. Was waiting for the cross platform stuff to get worked out for the Mac.



Dont' quit waiting! All I need is to hone my scripting chops.

Moon: See above. I don't view Kontakt as a downgrade at all. I was loyal to Giga because it's developers were so helpful toward my needs. I will miss working with them.

-M


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## a7 (Jul 22, 2008)

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! 

:cry: :cry: :cry: 

Ok, now that I have that out of my system...

What will this mean for users of previous versions which require authorization from tascam? I have licenses for GS3 and there are occasions when I need to re-authorize because I've had to re-install XP. Will I still be able to authorize my installs after the end of the year?

I'm definitely in the Open Giga camp.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 22, 2008)

a7 @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> What will this mean for users of previous versions which require authorization from tascam? I have licenses for GS3 and there are occasions when I need to re-authorize because I've had to re-install XP. Will I still be able to authorize my installs after the end of the year?



This is my biggest question as well. For me, Giga will not be obsolete unless it is not meeting my needs any more. I can run a Giga system for years for those quirky little giga samples I still love to use in my template. Heck...I still am on GS3. But I am more concerned about the ability to re-install and authorize the thing in the future if I need to change my system in some way. The authorization process was hard enough as it was with a support number dedicated to it. Now with support ceasing to exist at the end of 2008, I really hope that Tascam will either keep an authorization server online in some archived section. Or release one last "authorization update" that will open up the authorization to allow us to re-install without needing to go through that process.


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## John DeBorde (Jul 22, 2008)

ouch! I'm having flashbacks to the horrors of the Gibson/StudioVision debacle. I have to say I'm not too surprised, but very sad nevertheless.

john


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## mducharme (Jul 22, 2008)

I'm sure Sonivox moving to their own sample player didn't help matters.. they were the last major Giga sample developer.


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

This authorization problem is where the dongle wins. I feel secure in that my GS4 will live forever, since it's licens is on a syncrosoft key...even though if I find a bug I won't be able to get it fixed, at least I can move it around all I want.

But I'm not suggesting you give Tascam your money. :wink: 

-Mark


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 22, 2008)

mducharme...no.


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## mducharme (Jul 22, 2008)

If they refuse to open source it, TASCAM should sell Giga to someone else who can develop it further and not leave us hanging. Perhaps Sonivox would buy it as they co-developed the DEF filter?


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## ComposerDude (Jul 22, 2008)

Mark Belbin @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> ComposerDude @ Tue Jul 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Your Pedal Steel was on my 'must buy' list. Was waiting for the cross platform stuff to get worked out for the Mac.
> ...


Mark, thanks. Well of course the anticipation continues - there's nothing like your Pedal Steel out there anyway.

BTW, you might get in touch with Kotori (Nils Liberg), Dynamitec (Benjamin), Big Bob (Bob Villwock), among other scripting gurus who frequent VI's Kontakt scripting forum.

-Peter


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks Peter, I will do that. But first I'm going to educate myself somewhat on how it works, so that I can communicatte effectively with whoever it is I end up getting help from. 

Thanks for your kind words about the product. Such shame to have this happen right at the end of a year's hard work. Same for Tascam's coders, since they made my instrument programming possible in the new GS4 code. It couldn't have been done in GS3.

Mark


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## Thonex (Jul 22, 2008)

Mark Belbin @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Thanks Peter, I will do that. But first I'm going to educate myself somewhat on how it works, so that I can communicatte effectively with whoever it is I end up getting help from.



Some people are intimidated by the K2 forum here... but don't be... I can assure you that there is no such thing as a stupid question on there.. and there are some great coders there that will help you learn your way around the KSP scripting waters and general programming. So please... feel free to drop in anytime and fire away with questions... there are some really helpful people there.

Cheers,

T


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## ComposerDude (Jul 22, 2008)

Well, here it is, in the Legacy Software section:

http://www.tascam.com/legacy;37,7.html

Ironically, the cover art for GS4 is made of zillions of right-pointing triangles...on tape recorders and DAWs that's the symbol for... Play.

-Peter


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## Synesthesia (Jul 22, 2008)

Mark Belbin @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Thanks Peter, I will do that. But first I'm going to educate myself somewhat on how it works, so that I can communicatte effectively with whoever it is I end up getting help from.
> 
> Thanks for your kind words about the product. Such shame to have this happen right at the end of a year's hard work. Same for Tascam's coders, since they made my instrument programming possible in the new GS4 code. It couldn't have been done in GS3.
> 
> Mark



Mark,

I feel for you and for the former Giga programmers. I wanted to publicly thank you for the huge amount of help you have given not only me in my Giga programming projects, but also everyone else - I have often found myself thinking 'If its possible to do x,y,z then Belbin will know how to do it..' 

+1 for the fact that Giga4 licenses will be much more future-proof than GS3, but I wonder: they will either fly out the door and sell out quickly as hardcore Giga users (many many top end users as well as us guys) stockpile for their huge rigs and their 64bit futures, or Tascam's abrupt tugging of the rug may frighten off many who would have purchased.

While I praise the innovations of Spectrasonics, EW, Sonivox and NI for their work and their attempts to protect their investments while bringing us new tools, I also feel very sad that the original 'old gent' that started this revolution for us with its much copied technology has finally succumbed to the fickle hand of big business.

Being bought out by a big company is a very uncertain thing it seems..

All the best

Paul :cry:


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## Ed (Jul 22, 2008)

Mark Belbin @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> p.s. Please join us in the fight to get Tascam to release the Giga code as open source. Only in this way can the Technology that started this industry continue to grow. Give it to a community with creative vision and no foolish corporate misguidedness and it may just become the open player that most users wish for, but if not it could well remain dead on the Tascam vine:
> 
> http://www.opengigastudio.com/
> 
> ...



wow that would be amazing if they did that, just imagine it.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 22, 2008)

This sucks.

I can only assume that GS4 sales didn't hit expectations, and GVI-4 development (Mac & PC) was going to take more investment than Tascam was willing to provide.

On the GS4 side, it's really too bad that there weren't more GSIF 2.1 cards available at a reasonable price. I upgraded to GS4 immediately, but I still haven't run it in 64-bits.

So rather than a large group of people thrilled about the samples they could load, the GS4 launch kinda fell flat, IMHO.

Giga will still be useful going forward, but this is a sad day indeed.


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## Ed (Jul 22, 2008)

a7 @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> What will this mean for users of previous versions which require authorization from tascam? I have licenses for GS3 and there are occasions when I need to re-authorize because I've had to re-install XP. Will I still be able to authorize my installs after the end of the year?
> 
> I'm definitely in the Open Giga camp.



Start looking for cracks. When it happens, it will show how ridiculously stupid copy protection is when you have to crack your own software because theres no way else to use it.


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## Synesthesia (Jul 22, 2008)

Ed @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> a7 @ Tue Jul 22 said:
> 
> 
> > What will this mean for users of previous versions which require authorization from tascam? I have licenses for GS3 and there are occasions when I need to re-authorize because I've had to re-install XP. Will I still be able to authorize my installs after the end of the year?
> ...



Be very very careful. You could be installing a heap of malware onto your system. Although I second the question - what happens post Dec 31st..

I have already switched to GS4 so in theory any problems I have from now on are with Syncrosoft - heres hoping those guys never go bust..

Paul


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## synthetic (Jul 22, 2008)

A large percentage of customer service calls are just to get the old registration working. The dongle (as much as people hate those) is much easier and transportable. When you upgrade your computer you just plug in your dongle and get to work. 

As far as registering GS3 after 12/31/08, I don't have any information about that.


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## midphase (Jul 22, 2008)

Quod Erat Demonstrandum


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## Synesthesia (Jul 22, 2008)

midphase @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Quod Erat Demonstrandum



quod sui juris est.

quisquam?
~o) ~o) ~o)


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## Reegs (Jul 22, 2008)

Whoa! This caught me completely by surprise. A sign of the times and changing market, I guess, but I always thought of Giga as "The Rock" of enduring samplers. I'm saddened by this. 



JonFairhurst @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> On the GS4 side, it's really too bad that there weren't more GSIF 2.1 cards available at a reasonable price. I upgraded to GS4 immediately, but I still haven't run it in 64-bits.
> 
> So rather than a large group of people thrilled about the samples they could load, the GS4 launch kinda fell flat, IMHO.
> 
> Giga will still be useful going forward, but this is a sad day indeed.



Regardless of whether Tascam maintains a sort of authorization system or whether the iLoks function in perpetuity, Jon brings up an important point. Giga (though not GVI) needs GSIF drivers, and there's already only a limited number of GSIF2.1 drivers. Even if it the format and code goes open source, the process of persuading sound card manufacturers to develop and maintain GSIF-capable cards, with no corporate industry backing (only usergroups, so to say) could be a brutal uphill battle. Sound cards need upgrading every once and a while, which could mean losing Giga workability.

Let's not forget about Linuxsampler, either. It's got a giga-format at the core.

So Mark, when's the Open Source petition goin' up??  

Reegs


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## ComposerDude (Jul 22, 2008)

I've got a mint condition GS3 here still shrinkwrapped in its wooden, er, coffin.


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## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2008)

Bye Giga !

I'm not surprised ... This was bound to happen.


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## nomogo (Jul 22, 2008)

ComposerDude @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> I've got a mint condition GS3 here still shrinkwrapped in its wooden, er, coffin.



LOL... thats fittiing... creepy for some reason.


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## José Herring (Jul 22, 2008)

This is scary actually. NI is in trouble too. They've taken a bath on Kore. Spent all sorts of money in dev. and research and it hasn't paid off.

There's talk from some pretty legit sources that they may sell their licenses too.


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## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2008)

josejherring @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> This is scary actually. NI is in trouble too. They've taken a bath on Kore. Spent all sorts of money in dev. and research and it hasn't paid off.
> 
> There's talk from some pretty legit sources that they may sell their licenses too.



Yes, I think NI should focus on Kontakt, rather than spreading themselves too thin with Kore, and other VIs that are secondary when you consider Kontakt being a major player/format in the sample industry. Maybe they will learn a lesson or two form Giga ! and with many developers going with their own sample player trend, Hmmm ... NI needs to wake up and smell the Garlic !

IMHO, Kontakt needs faster development, and updates... Otherwise.... Bye Bye K....


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 22, 2008)

So.Jeff...everyone who attends the VI-Control dinner next Monday evening will get free copies of GVI, Gigastudio 4 or even older GS3 wooden boxes that may still be lying around...right? 

...right? 

You know...to help clean out the old wharehouse of obsolete & discontinued product. 

:wink: :D


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## Aaron Dirk (Jul 22, 2008)

WOW! :shock: 

I've already abandoned giga long ago, as I couldn't translate what Kontakt was doing on the scripting side. Plus the sales of giga libraries I did have fell to almost non-existent

I really feel for Mark and others that developed for giga still, plus everyone involved with giga.


This is very sad

I hope it doesn't end up like the Gibson/SVP and they just let it die


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

Re: OpenGiga,

It's been requested that I remove that link, which I'm about to do. Hopefully something will come of it at a later time. It was a premature announcement.

Meantime, thanks again to everyone for kind sentiments.

Mark


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## musicpete (Jul 22, 2008)

Sorry for being sarcastic, but...... Hahaha Hahaha Hahaha! You've been Tascammed AGAIN!! 

I can't believe it! They did the same thing with their customers 2 times already. Unbelievable!

And yet they somehow managed to acquire enough people who wasted their money on them.... only to be Tascammed again. Wow. Where I come from, this is called "Chuzpe"...

My condolences to everyone who bought their products! What are the alternatives?


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 22, 2008)

musicpete @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Sorry for being sarcastic, but...... Hahaha Hahaha Hahaha! You've been Tascammed AGAIN!!
> 
> I can't believe it! They did the same thing with their customers 2 times already. Unbelievable!
> 
> ...



Please...while there are long term implications of this and also many good people on the Gigastudio development team whose immediate job futures may be in question ...it is not like my Gigastudio machine magically stopped working today either. It is very solid as a matter of fact and probably will be for many years to come.

And when one can walk onto major dub stages (some Todd-AO dub stages I can think of) in Hollywood and see that they are still running OS9 with older versions of Pro Tools on some stages...running older software does not necessarily mean the investment in that software, in this case, the software that changed the sampler software industry forever (Gigastudio) was a waste.
:roll:


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## Thonex (Jul 22, 2008)

Brian Ralston @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Please...while there are long term implications of this and also many good people on the Gigastudio development team whose immediate job futures may be in question ...it is not like my Gigastudio machine magically stopped working today either. It is very solid as a matter of fact and probably will be for many years to come.
> 
> And when one can walk onto major dub stages (some Todd-AO dub stages I can think of) in Hollywood and see that they are still running OS9 with older versions of Pro Tools on some stages...running older software does not necessarily mean the investment in that software, in this case, the software that changed the sampler software industry forever (Gigastudio) was a waste.
> :roll:



Exactly!

I tend to not upgrade unless I absolutely have to... I'm still using Nuendo 3 (for example) and don't plan on upgrading until they go full 64 bit. Nuendo 3 works just as well now as it did the day before Nunedo 4 was announced.


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## synthetic (Jul 22, 2008)

Synesthesia @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> midphase @ Tue Jul 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Quod Erat Demonstrandum
> ...



Sorry, I went to school in America and Google doesn't have a Latin option.


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## Thonex (Jul 22, 2008)

synthetic @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Synesthesia @ Tue Jul 22 said:
> 
> 
> > midphase @ Tue Jul 22 said:
> ...



"what is one's by right. Anyone?"


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## a7 (Jul 22, 2008)

Yeah, this is the one occasion where I'd prefer a dongle, but I'm not going to upgrade to G4 just to keep what I've already paid for working.

I hate to say it, but I did consider the possibility of having to look for a key generator, or something. If it comes down to sidestepping the license, or turning $5k, in VSL libs, into a doorstop, because I can't authorize GS3...well, you know. 

This sort of situation is the reason I stay away from software with special copy protection schemes. Even a dongle can fail, since it can be lost, or broken. My system is pretty clean in that respect; XP, GS3 and Kontakt, being the only software I have that uses CP.

Another question I have is, what's going to happen to small time library developers, if Kontakt and Halion go down the same road as GS? 

Development on ShortCircuit stopped. Development on VSampler has stopped, or is at a crawl. There's Maize Sampler, but it's development has stalled, because the programmer is in grad school.

I recall the prophet Bruce Richards starting, what turned into, a long thread, foretelling the end of the development of sample software, if lib developers continued the trend of bundling their own players. Well, here we are.

Anyway, I had been considering upgrading my K1 license to K3, lately, but after hearing this GS news, I'm a little spooked. I think I'll just hold out hope for an OpenGS and further Linux Sampler development.


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## Waywyn (Jul 22, 2008)

Aiii, sorry to hear that and bye bye GS.

Kinda saw it happen, ... dunno why but I never understood that there wasn't a plugin version available. Better integration with the usage of slaves etc.

Gigapulse was cool, but also lots of people damaged their computers with GS because of that Kernel programming. Lots had no problems with GS and the DFD technology/streaming efficiency was great. Period!

I think too, TASCAM should make it open source or let some other company really optimize it the way it should really be.

Otherwise I am kinda happy that I was and still am on the Kontakt way of life 
Couldn't imagine to know that the product would totally be discontinued and not knowing if it would handle future libraries.

Anyway, since most of the devs create their own sample players even Kontakt MAY become obsolete sooner or later!


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 22, 2008)

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=1738

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=1720


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## Mike Greene (Jul 22, 2008)

Wow! This is very sad news and a total surprise (to me at least.) Hopefully somebody else runs with it, but it seems like that might have already been discussed and rejected at Tascam before they would make such a drastic announcement.

My sympathies to Mark, Bruce and Jeff.


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## nadeama (Jul 22, 2008)

You know, I'm sure there are many reasons why this is happening today, but it's hard to believe that most major sample developers going to proprietary formats didn't have a lot to do with it. Bruce was certainly right...

I mean, closed players have many advantages for the developers, not many for the user. Some of the disadvantages that I see:

- No access to the basic sample material. Oh, you can probably use a tool like Autosampler to resample everything, and then edit your samples and build a new instrument from scratch, but that's a lot of time wasted. With direct access to the samples, you can skip the resampling and rebuilding of instrument parts.

- Since these libraries are CP'd, some developers take the opportunity to ask you to buy site licenses if you want to spread a big library on multiple computers. It didn't use to be this way. You could buy a big library and spread it on your 12 computers(!) if you wanted to. It's not like I'm using the library many times at once, I'm using it once on different machines to spread CPU usage. I know I've talked about this one before as it pisses me off royally.

- The user is constantly having to learn a new interface. I'm sick and tired of having to learn a new VI's way of working when it shouldn't have to be really necessary. Hey, I'm spending more time learning software than improving my musical skills. It's counter-productive. Yes, I do want that really great new library and I'm ready to pay good money for it, but I want to use it in a sampler that I'm familiar with and that let's me edit my samples the way I want to. GigaStudio was that way, and so is Kontakt when you're working with a non-protected library (which has been pretty rare, I'll admit).

I'm sure there are a few features here and there in each sample player that are nice, but probably nothing I couldn't have lived without, or at least waited a bit more to have that feature in one of the main samplers. To me, it's not worth the trade-off anyway.

But I must be in a very small minority, because people are asking for sample players. Al from Sonivox just said in the other thread that it's one of the reasons why they went with their own software. It's like we users are bending over, smiling, and then asking for more. Totally crazy.

Anyway, in a few years all that will be moot, as there won't be any more sampler workstations at all, only dedicated players. Or so my crystal ball tells me...


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## Nick Phoenix (Jul 22, 2008)

No surprise at all. But sad, because Giga was always cutting edge stuff.


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## Thonex (Jul 22, 2008)

nadeama @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Y
> But I must be in a very small minority, because people are asking for sample players.



I personally don't know any end users who want "sample players"... so I don't think you are in the minority.


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 22, 2008)

Yes, Martin, it will all be gone.

Then, ol' Belbin'll come along with a patent for a fantastic new thing called a "software sampler", that will load the content (not the f##king engine) of any dev's proprietary players, and let you edit it to you heart's content. It will also let you do magical things like create your own libraries, etc. When it happens, this will do away with all this silly proprietary stuff. I think I'll call it, "TerraStudio".

I have a similar plan for a new and exciting piece of hardware called, "the telephone". All you'll have to do to talk with someone is pick it up and dial a few numbers. It will be an epidemic.

Mark


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## mducharme (Jul 22, 2008)

If you look at why these companies are going it on their own, to control their own stuff, it is possible to design a sampler that takes these things into account.

What is really needed IMO is a sampler with a full blown API (not just scripting) and extensions interface (like in the Firefox web browser).

That would theoretically give the following:

- The ability to completely design your own UI for the sampler and call the underlying sampler functions using API calls. That way you can get 100% control of the UI but not have to worry about the plumbing.

- Extensions would give the ability to support additional features in both the sampler engine (stuff like what Kontakt 2 scripting does but perhaps even going further) and the standard UI in cases where you didn't want to write your own UI from scratch.

If samplers were designed in a way that is modular and extensible I would think there would be little reason to custom develop these sample players.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 22, 2008)

First my sentiments to Mark and whoever in the GS team needs to look for work.

A little perspective here may be order. The marketplace usually determines what products are needed and what products are generally not. When GS came on the marketplace it was the only thing of its kind. With GS leaving Kontakt will be in a similar position with a few other platforms picking up some slack. If there was a huge user base needing GS to continue someone would buy it out, or in the future a new format will be created. It seems the amount of people wanting to really get in and edit samples is pretty small (I am one who likes to btw), and there are other formats which can accommodate them. It certainly sucks for now but most people will deal with it as a slight inconvenience. If there is enough clamoring for an editable sample engine beyond what is currently out there a new player will emerge.


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## Nick Phoenix (Jul 22, 2008)

I estimate the tweakers are less than 3%. But there is probably another 10% who likes to create their own sounds once in a while. The ideal is an interface that gives you easy access to 99% of what you want to do. That's the goal anyway. PLAY PRO will be a full blown sampler. It's what we use to program PLAY instruments right now. It kind of looks like Giga, but that will probably change when it is unleashed on the public.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 22, 2008)

will you be able to put your own samples, or say GS samples into Play?


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## Nick Phoenix (Jul 22, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> will you be able to put your own samples, or say GS samples into Play?



yes you can load your own and kontakt programs


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## kdm (Jul 22, 2008)

Nice. Kontakt multis as well?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 22, 2008)

Nick Phoenix @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Tue Jul 22 said:
> 
> 
> > will you be able to put your own samples, or say GS samples into Play?
> ...



Oh boy, I will be all over that.


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## Sean Beeson (Jul 22, 2008)

Nick Phoenix @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> I estimate the tweakers are less than 3%. But there is probably another 10% who likes to create their own sounds once in a while. The ideal is an interface that gives you easy access to 99% of what you want to do. That's the goal anyway. PLAY PRO will be a full blown sampler. It's what we use to program PLAY instruments right now. It kind of looks like Giga, but that will probably change when it is unleashed on the public.



You guys at EWQL, always something up your sleeves  Can't wait to get my grubs on it!

Oh, and Gigastudio, R.I.P.


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## mducharme (Jul 22, 2008)

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/SaveGigaStudio/


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## spectrum (Jul 23, 2008)

That's really a shame for the developers and for everyone who has supported the GIGA format....that's always a real drag when that happens. I've been through this a bunch of times before, so I know the feeling.

From my perspective, I'm really glad that we decided not to support the GIGA platform with our libraries.

After we got burned by Roland, Akai, Kurzweil, SampleCell, Emu, Ensoniq, Bitheadz, etc....I got a little tired of the whole sampler merry-go-round. I've got a warehouse full of obsolete discs to prove it!

We supported open samplers for over a decade before we realized that there's a much better way to realize our ideas and bring them to the market in a way that can last and is more innovative.

So to offer another perspective: Open samplers almost killed this developer, not the other way around.

Good luck on the Open GIGA initiative....hope that can happen for all the loyal GIGA users out there who certainly deserve it!

best,

spectrum


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## wonshu (Jul 23, 2008)

@spectrum

very good points!

Sometimes we forget that behind all of these products out there there are people who have to deal with a whole bunch of other stuff besides what they actually want to do.

Looking forward to what Omnisphere will be!

Best
Hans


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## Ed (Jul 23, 2008)

So does this mean you cannot upgrade to or buy GS4 anymore?


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## Moonchilde (Jul 23, 2008)

Ed @ July 23rd 2008 said:


> So does this mean you cannot upgrade to or buy GS4 anymore?



No, you can certainly purchase GS4 still, up until December 31, which is when it's doors close.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 23, 2008)

josejherring @ Tue Jul 22 said:


> This is scary actually. NI is in trouble too. They've taken a bath on Kore. Spent all sorts of money in dev. and research and it hasn't paid off.
> 
> I do doubt this very very much. NI has huge user base and it's not based on the sample orchestra mock-up composer. There huge electronic following with tons of musicians in there user data base. Kore 2 is doing ok. NI as a company is doing Great! There going no where. What the hell would replace NI? forget about all the silly Orchestra mock-ups relying on Kontakt. Let's look at the big picture and there products(there successful!)


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## Pedro Camacho (Jul 23, 2008)

I must confess I always looked at Kontakt as a much stronger sampler format.

Also I have to say I love your libraries, but because they are based on Giga I never bought them. Count with me once you change them to kontakt.

I also think you will find a much larger costumer base once you mode yourself to Kontakt.


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## tradivoro (Jul 23, 2008)

Well, this is sad news indeed... I didn't get giga IV, but I was looking forward to GVI IV since GVI 3 has the bug that it will not fast render in Sonar and that would have fixed that problem... I liked everything else about it except that... I thought somewhere donw the ine I would get Giga IV... But now, I guess I won't unless they have a fire sale for $100 or something...


But maybe what will happen is what happened with a program called Bryce... It's a graphic program, originally created by independt programmers, not unlike Giga, and then , they were bought out by Corel, and eventually it was dropped by Corel... However, user popularity eventually caused one user group/independent company to take over the program (don't ask me what kind of deal they made)... And these people continue to maintain it..


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 23, 2008)

Please review my second post in this thread for important notice re: http://www.opengigastudio.com (www.opengigastudio.com)

Thanks,
Mark


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 23, 2008)

spectrum @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> That's really a shame for the developers and for everyone who has supported the GIGA format....that's always a real drag when that happens. I've been through this a bunch of times before, so I know the feeling.
> 
> From my perspective, I'm really glad that we decided not to support the GIGA platform with our libraries.
> 
> ...



What a sad post to read. I'm sorry Eric.


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## spectrum (Jul 23, 2008)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> What a sad post to read. I'm sorry Eric.


No worries Peter...that was a long time ago actually.

Since we've become a full-blown software company, things couldn't be better! 

I was just pointing out that it's made a big difference for us on a real practical level to not be chasing the sampler platform wars anymore.

Cheers,

spectrum


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## lee (Jul 23, 2008)

I must agree with somebody here saying that NI and Kontakt development probably dont risk going the same way as GS.

Didnt Kontakt "steal" customers from GS in the beginning? And the fact that GS has stopped being delevoped, could lead to more former GS-users starting to use Kontakt instead.

/Johnny


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2008)

Yup!


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 23, 2008)

I've been meaning to write down some thoughts on the sampler market for some time but this news has kicked me into action. This is very sad news, indeed, and I do hope that the innovative originators don't come out of this too badly. Apart from coming up with the HD streaming (or at least applying it) concept these guys really made a breakthrough by using some clever low level programming techniques to enable the PCs of the day to do the business. I suspect that this same low level programming made their whole software structure very difficult to update without a lot of re-writing though and their original ingenuity may have turned into an Achilles heel.

I must say that I lusted after Gigasampler for several years, but I always thought that they charged far too much; especially after they had creamed the early market. Following this they should have reduced the price more then people like me would have climbed onboard. I’m afraid that techies (I’m one) don’t often make good businessmen.

This failure gave NI’s Kontakt an opening and it was very successful but now everyone is producing their own software samplers as the programming knowledge becomes disseminated widely.

Like many others I really just want a single piece of software where I can run sample libraries from any number of developers. In the same way that I hate Microsoft’s greedy monopoly of the Office Suites I love them in an equal amount for their standardisation of the business. Imagine if you had to learn new word processors every time you moved jobs as you have to with Computer Aided Design software, for example. An absolute pain in the arse!

I’ve been through the stack of synth modules game already with multifarious interfaces and programming which you have to learn….I had hoped that had been left behind.

What’s causing all this? 

1.	I’ve already mentioned the proliferation of the technology and the relative ease (and hence low cost) of producing a software sampler.
2.	Piracy…no dongle.
3.	Were NI overcharging for their players? If this is the case they have shot their users and themselves in the foot as they’ve, potentially, ruined all our investments in their sampler as it’s not likely to survive now.
4.	Software sampler and sequencer developers are all producing their _own _samples; in competition with the very sample developers who adopt their software! This must be nerve-wracking (not to say bloody irritating) for the developers as perhaps they could see themselves becoming redundant! 
Native Instruments are already in bed with Vienna Instruments, to a degree, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a further linkage with the latter taking over the Kontakt engine. I can’t see Kontakt surviving now unless they end up, even more, like EWQL; ie. having their own sampler AND samples. I can foresee a lot of amalgamations and take-overs in the near future.
5.	The market for high level samples and samplers is relatively small. Giga, and latterly Kontakt, could survive only by having the majority of sample developers onboard their sampler. Every time one of these developers produce their own sampler, that’s a nail in the coffin for Giga and now too for Kontakt. It would appear that their days are numbered….damn, I have it.

It’s fascinating that you have companies like EWQL and NI with Kontakt who could end up the same although they started from different ends…..one with samples and one with a sampler!

I can see that the Player Pro will be very successful, now, as EWQL will have built up quite a user base via their software and especially if they are smart enough (and they are) to permit the loading of Kontakt et al sample standards. 
I was going to upgrade to Kontakt 3 shortly but I’m definitely going to wait now!! Maybe the days of the independent sample manufacturers are over unless they are built on a financially sound sample production and distribution base.

I just want an open standard and maybe the EWQL Player Pro will be it…..that would be my bet. …..providing there are decent cross-grades and sensible pricing.

‘Interesting’ times.

Frank


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2008)

Frank,

I am "frankly" a bit puzzled by your post. I really don't see NI suffering from this, but rather benefitting.

There are some key factors that in my opinion have made Kontakt now most common full featured soft sampler out there.

First of all, they never shunned the Mac community. While PC developers can argue that Mac users only command 8% or so of computer users, in the audio (and visual) world this is not the case. I personally do not know a single working composer who uses a PC as his main platform (hold your horses all of you itching to chime in....I don't know any of you personally, I'm speaking of my colleagues whom I've had the pleasure to meet face to face). So for Nemesys and Tascam to refuse to port their software to the Mac for such a long time, unavoidably hurt their bottom line (the same BTW does not apply as much the other way around, companies such as MOTU and Apple know very well that in the audio and video world, Macs are predominant).

Secondly, GS never until very recently adopted the idea of a plug-in based workflow. They allowed their competitors to buzz right past them in this regard, while NI has always been plug-in based.

NI has had a very aggressive marketing strategy, their initial "alliance" with sample developers was absolutely brilliant. I'm sure they knew that this would not last forever, but they took it and run with it as long as they could.

NI is also supported by a multi-product line. So even if their Kontakt sales might lessen with time, they have a slew of other software to help keep them going (you could argue that Tascam did have hardware sales to keep it going...but IMHO this was part of the whole problem).

NI has had a very aggressive Format-Import stance which to my knowledge is only matched in breadth by MOTU's Mach 5 (or 6 or whatever it is now). This has made is relatively simple for guys like me to convert and use GS libraries.

In closing, I think NI is probably celebrating this latest development as I'm sure ex-GS users will now take a serious look at Kontakt 3.


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 23, 2008)

midphase @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> Frank,
> 
> I am "frankly" a bit puzzled by your post. I really don't see NI suffering from this, but rather benefitting.
> 
> ...



Midiphase,

I am frankly 'phased' by your post...... ... not really; I just wanted to retort! 

You are certainly correct, in that NI will be rubbing their hands....but hey, that's business.

You mention 'Mac'.... weren't they the computer equivalent of Gigastudio. Overpriced kit catering for a tiny minority? Are they still going? :twisted: 

Frank


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## spectrum (Jul 23, 2008)

Not sure what all the doom and gloom about Kontakt is about??

I've been in this business of samplers and libraries since the beginning in the early 80's, and I've never seen a healthier and better supported sampler than Kontakt.

It has nowhere near the same business problems that GIGA faced.

My prediction is that Kontakt will be around for a long, long time.

spectrum


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2008)

"You mention 'Mac'.... Are they still going?"

I'm sure Steve Jobs is laughing all the way to the hospital!


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 23, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> You mention 'Mac'.... weren't they the computer equivalent of Gigastudio. Overpriced kit catering for a tiny minority? Are they still going? :twisted:



A "tiny" minority in the world market when it comes to businesses and offices using the MAC platform vs. windows. 

BUT

MAC is a HUGE percentage of the market when you just look at the music industry and entertainment industry alone. And when it comes to programs that are made specifically for that industry...one has to look at the very large percentage of folks using MACs. i.e...the folks at Tascam doing Giga...or the folks at Native Instruments doing Kontakt can't just look at the 3-5% market share of MAC in the world....their world is only the folks in the industry for which their programs are specifically designed. And in that case...they have to consider that probably greater than 50% of THOSE people use a MAC. 

And then we are back to Kays point about ignoring the MAC folks in their program development...which is a good one.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 23, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> You mention 'Mac'.... weren't they the computer equivalent of Gigastudio. Overpriced kit catering for a tiny minority?



I don't see similarities at all between the two. Gigastudio took too long to ship a plugin version, they never supported macs (a big part of the DAW market), they were bought by a bigger company that had no clue what to do with the software, and they ran into technical issues they didn't seem to be able to overcome.

Overpriced and small market share were the least of their problems.

And for those reasons, I don't think Kontakt is in trouble just yet. At the very least, they have a bunch of other software instruments - let's not forget that they aren't just a technology developer but also sell lots of original content.

I'd agree that if anything, this could help Kontakt. It's pretty well supported, it's cross platform, the developers seem committed to keeping up with the latest technology. Even if all the major sample developers go with proprietary players, there will be not just the minor players, but all the existing kontakt libraries that people will want to keep playing. While East West moved to their own player, they probably gave Kontakt sales a big boost by not doing PLAY updates for some of their major libraries like StormDrum (and by taking so long to update the ones they are doing). Add to that all the old giga libraries which Kontakt can import - users will need a way to play those for years to come.


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## Sean Beeson (Jul 23, 2008)

Mac may be "small", but the numbers are increasing 

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=724111

Not entirely pertinent to the earlier conversation, just an interesting article I came across  hehe


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 23, 2008)

Would seem a damn shame if the DEF and PRF capabilities were forever lost to a sealed corporate dustbin.


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 23, 2008)

JohnnyMarks @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> Would seem a damn shame if the DEF and PRF capabilities were forever lost to a sealed corporate dustbin.



Daaaaam Straight. I've followed the discussions about this, and I still have no idea how to do it in any other sampler. 

Between these features and Giga's lossless compression, what I can do in GS4 at 2 Gb an instrument will be 3-4 Gb in K2. 10-20 Gb if you count the PRF's value to something like the pedal steel. Seriously. What a loss this will be on the size/performance ratio side of things.

Shame is an understatement.

Mark


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## mducharme (Jul 23, 2008)

Something I'm wondering about DEF.. Since Sonivox co-developed it I believe, I wonder if it might be in Sonivox's new sample player?

On the PRF side of this, supposedly the new SIPS version just released does something similar to the PRF.


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## KingIdiot (Jul 23, 2008)

I've been developing something similar "DEF" concepts for kontakt.
I have multiple ideas, its just gonna take some time to fiddle with sorting them out and no its not simple EQ modulation.

as for the formant shifting. thats a different story, bu SIPS does some neat things for glissandos, if the instrument is chromatically sampled. As well Kontakt does have a formant shifting capability, but its nowhere near as tailored as the GIGA stuff to do what PRF does


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## Thonex (Jul 24, 2008)

mducharme @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> Something I'm wondering about DEF.. Since Sonivox co-developed it I believe, I wonder if it might be in Sonivox's new sample player?
> 
> On the PRF side of this, supposedly the new SIPS version just released does something similar to the PRF.



I'm fairly convinced that if we want, we (the Kontakt forum with some Giga expert's help) could collectively create something like the DEF filter. Kontakt is very deep.... a lot deeper than people think. Of course... I'm not too familiar with the DEF filter... but I have faith :D 

Insofar as loading samples... if it means anything, when I went from Giga 3 to K2 I was able to load substantially more into K2 than Giga... with a higher voice count. The DFD setting on K2/3 are pretty customizable.

But your mileage may vary.


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## KingIdiot (Jul 24, 2008)

ok heres one idea, the one I think will be easiest to impliment and probably the most effective

Using impulses:

one can "capture" and "tailor" multiple frequency snapshots of different dynamics in a multisampled instrument. Then use Kontakts convolution "reverb" to load these filter snapshots. If tailored correctly, one could crossfade between different group outputs (or instrument effect outputs) and create a single layered "xfade" similar to DEF.

You could probably get away with one "snapshot" and go from dry to wet. But this wont get you "more bite" since you'll probably have to use a forte sample and filter it down to piano.

One could also use multiple loading of impulses to go "back and forth" between a larger amount of impulses without having to use too many effects slots/convolution FX.
This is part of a greater dynamic convolution conecpt I've been working on for years actually., its just nothing out there allows me to test my concepts, until recently.

anywho, have at it. I'll be happy to help design basic filter snapshots. I think a good 256band or above filter/EQ would be a really nice way to go. (1024 would be nice)

as for PRF, thats a trickier story, you could combine what SIPS is doing with a modulating filter that could act as a formant shifter.... but I think it just seems like overkill at this point. Adn its no where near what PRF probably does on its own.

This said, I'm not saying that what I posted above would replace DEF. I'm just suggesting what I think would be easier to do with the best results.


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## Thonex (Jul 24, 2008)

KingIdiot @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> .
> 
> This said, I'm not saying that what I posted above would replace DEF. I'm just suggesting what I think would be easier to do with the best results.



What exactly though does the DEF filter do? If it's possible to explain in a paragraph or so?

Sorry for my ignorance.... I believe there is a thread somewhere about the DEF filter in the K2 forum, but I don;t recall it really explaining with the DEF actually does.


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## KingIdiot (Jul 24, 2008)

taking this to the K2 forum, instead of highjacking


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## Moonchilde (Jul 24, 2008)

Thonex @ July 24th 2008 said:


> KingIdiot @ Thu Jul 24 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



DEF models velocity layers to create unlimited dynamic expression. You can do quick and dirty DEF setups or you can make it as complicated as you want.


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## redleicester (Jul 24, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> Native Instruments are already in bed with Vienna Instruments, to a degree, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a further linkage with the latter taking over the Kontakt engine. I can’t see Kontakt surviving now unless they end up, even more, like EWQL; ie. having their own sampler AND samples. I can foresee a lot of amalgamations and take-overs in the near future.



Frank, some odd and some pertinent points there, some of which I agree with, others of which I don't. However, the above quote caught me out - since when have VSL been in bed with NI? VSL ditched development for Kontakt / Giga / EXS three years ago just prior to releasing their own VI Player which was coded in house. 

Not sure what you're alluding to in terms of them having any interest whatsoever in the Kontakt engine or anything else to do with NI. After all, VSL have their own PC/Mac Plugins, hosts, and 64-bit support long before anyone else.... why would they wish to take a retrograde step? That's like suggesting EWQL abandon Play and suddenly decide to move all their work to Giga?! :shock:


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## midphase (Jul 24, 2008)

I think he's referring to VSL instruments being packaged as park of the Kontakt Library. It's really not a huge deal considering that it allows VSL to generate money through Kontakt's wider distribution.

There are some really great things that I think VSL player nailed, and that I hope other developers consider adopting, such as how simple it really is to turn a multi-velocity instrument into a Velocity Xfade instrument and assign any controller you want to it. Next to VSL, EXS24 is the next easiest sampler to configure....unfortunately it's outdated in functionality.

I am sure that some of the GS3 tech will trickle down to other samplers, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the guys who just got laid off at Tascam are busy making plans for relocation to Germany.


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## redleicester (Jul 24, 2008)

midphase @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> I think he's referring to VSL instruments being packaged as park of the Kontakt Library. It's really not a huge deal considering that it allows VSL to generate money through Kontakt's wider distribution.



Or the fact a very similar bundle was packaged with Gigastudio 3.....


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## Thonex (Jul 24, 2008)

midphase @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> There are some really great things that I think VSL player nailed, and that I hope other developers consider adopting, such as how simple it really is to turn a multi-velocity instrument into a Velocity Xfade instrument and assign any controller you want to it.



Nils wrote an awesome script that does exactly that.

http://nilsliberg.se/ksp/scripts/scripts.html#crossfade


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## KingIdiot (Jul 24, 2008)

Thonex @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> midphase @ Thu Jul 24 said:
> 
> 
> > There are some really great things that I think VSL player nailed, and that I hope other developers consider adopting, such as how simple it really is to turn a multi-velocity instrument into a Velocity Xfade instrument and assign any controller you want to it.
> ...



suddenly 5 slots for scripts just doesnt seem like enough at all.


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## midphase (Jul 24, 2008)

I agree with the cool script...but my point is....why didn't NI think of that?


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 24, 2008)

spectrum @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> Not sure what all the doom and gloom about Kontakt is about??
> 
> I've been in this business of samplers and libraries since the beginning in the early 80's, and I've never seen a healthier and better supported sampler than Kontakt.
> 
> ...



Hi Spectrum,

The gloom is based on the fact that every new sampler that comes on the market takes away Kontakts share....simple as that. OK they'll benefit somewhat by the demise of GS, but unless they compete on the sample side then I think that there could be problems. However, let's be honest, no one, other than NI, _really _knows how the market is changing for Kontakt.

I really do hope that you are right as it would be terrible if there wasn't at least one _strong _independent software sampler manufacturer. I do think that they're going to have some serious competition on their hands once the likes of Player Pro get onto the market with the marketing skills of EWQL in particular.

Cheers

Frank


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 24, 2008)

redleicester @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> Hardy Heern @ Wed Jul 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Native Instruments are already in bed with Vienna Instruments, to a degree, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a further linkage with the latter taking over the Kontakt engine. I can’t see Kontakt surviving now unless they end up, even more, like EWQL; ie. having their own sampler AND samples. I can foresee a lot of amalgamations and take-overs in the near future.
> ...



Yes Red, I'm afraid that I am somewhat odd, as are my points....some of them impertinent....it has to be said.....especially my naughty Mac titillation.....Sorry MidiPhase and Brian. 

I was shooting from the hip wrt to Kontakt going further with VSL's samples. Yes you are right VSL are independent and pretty much at the (too expensive for me) forefront of technology....but there again, who knows what might happen. My point really is that NI might have to start kompeting more with the likes of PlayPro and if their sampler is only equal to it then they'll probably have to start matching the sample side of the business too. I wonder if EWQL will bundle Colossus or Goliath with it: or at least a subset? 

My goodness, how I love to speculate about all these topics without even having any hard figures on which to base the speculation! 

Frank


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 24, 2008)

midphase @ Wed Jul 23 said:


> "You mention 'Mac'.... Are they still going?"
> 
> I'm sure Steve Jobs is laughing all the way to the hospital!



Sorry midiphase, I really was getting carried away with my naughty wind up. Yes you're right the Mac does have more than a small share of the audio and graphics market. I know because I had the poor man's Mac at one point....(the Atari STFM!....with Cubase, of course  )

Cheers

Frank


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 24, 2008)

midphase @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> I think he's referring to VSL instruments being packaged as park of the Kontakt Library. It's really not a huge deal considering that it allows VSL to generate money through Kontakt's wider distribution.
> 
> There are some really great things that I think VSL player nailed, and that I hope other developers consider adopting, such as how simple it really is to turn a multi-velocity instrument into a Velocity Xfade instrument and assign any controller you want to it. Next to VSL, EXS24 is the next easiest sampler to configure....unfortunately it's outdated in functionality.
> 
> I am sure that some of the GS3 tech will trickle down to other samplers, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the guys who just got laid off at Tascam are busy making plans for relocation to Germany.



Yes, you're dead right Midiphase....that's what I meant. I don't really know much about the VSL Player but I accept what you say. Interesting speculation about the GS programmer guys!

Cheers

Frank


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## redleicester (Jul 24, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> Yes Red, I'm afraid that I am somewhat odd, as are my points....some of them impertinent....it has to be said.....especially my naughty Mac titillation.....Sorry MidiPhase.



Nowt wrong with Mac-bashing, second only to dwarf tossing in my personal pantheon of sporting entertainment.



> I was shooting from the hip wrt to Kontakt going further with VSL's samples. Yes you are right VSL are independent and pretty much at the (too expensive for me) forefront of technology....but there again, who knows what might happen. My point really is that NI might have to start kompeting more with the likes of PlayPro and if their sampler is only equal to it then they'll probably have to start matching the sample side of the business too. I wonder if EWQL will bundle Colossus or Goliath with it: or at least a subset?



I think the problem is your speculation is covering two different markets, though granted they are becoming a little blurred once again having diverged in the 90s. The thing is, us VIC forum chaps are liable to look at things from the perspective of the biggies - VSL / EWQL / Sonivox / Giga etc, and thus the demise of Giga and potential demise Kontakt is seen to hinge upon their participation (or lack thereof). 
Much of that argument rings true for Giga - after all a high percentage of their users bought Giga almost exclusively to run one of the big orchestral libraries - I myself ran VSL Pro Edition, KH, and sundry other libraries on it. Remove those big sellers, and what you have is a monstrously expensive sample player for esoteric libraries.

On the flipside you have Kontakt, and yes it's a mature platform, and yes you could run VSL / Sonivox / New KH and many many more libraries on it. However, ignoring the rest of the NI stable for a minute, the clincher with Kontakt was the existence of the Kompakt player - a genius marketing device whereby they got their own engine into countless products. Wander down to your local music store in St Ives and see how many spotty yoofs are buying Zero-G this, BigFish that and Garritan the other - all for mere pennies in comparison. However, each of those sales serves to solidify the platform and expand the userbase in a way no flagship product could ever do, despite the price disparity. The joy for us is it then does become a de facto benchmark, and one that our favoured eclectic developers can use - like BelaD, Vir2 and Cinesamples.

Be glad then that the critical biggies, our orchestras, are going into custom players which are designed from the ground up to get the very best out of them, and for everything else we have a dull-but-worthy benchmark which retains its familiarity.

Sounds like win win all round to me.


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## spectrum (Jul 24, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> spectrum @ Wed Jul 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure what all the doom and gloom about Kontakt is about??
> ...


Nah...that's not the case.

Kontakt's user base has grown every year. They've taken over more of the market and will continue to do so. They are adding new third-party developers almost every week!

There has always been a clear musical need for one strong sampler in the market, and Kontakt is finally the clear winner in a battle that's been going on for decades.

It's going to be nearly impossible for any company to dethrone them at this point.



> OK they'll benefit somewhat by the demise of GS,


Huh?

Of course they'll benefit....they'll get nearly ALL those users!




> but unless they compete on the sample side then I think that there could be problems.


Huh?

They are the only company with a serious licensing business and that's extremely healthy right now. New developers being adding constantly. NI was very smart to do this.



> However, let's be honest, no one, other than NI, _really _knows how the market is changing for Kontakt.


Well, no one knows the future at all, including NI. 

However, ALL sales indicators and industry support indicators clearly show that Kontakt is in better shape businesswise than any other sampler in the history of sampling!



> I really do hope that you are right as it would be terrible if there wasn't at least one _strong _independent software sampler manufacturer.


I'd bet strongly on that. Customers need this kind of product, and NI has invested heavily in it and they are a very smart company that adapts to changes well - so Kontakt will be around for a long, long time I think.

(and note that they are my principal competitor, so this is coming from someone that would benefit a lot from their demise!  )

Also, the truth is that it's not easy developing universal, cross-platform software plug-ins that work really well, so not every sample developer is going to go that route of becoming a software developer. It's takes a lot of resources and seriously hard work - easier said than done! (even Tascam/GIGA never pulled it off)



> I do think that they're going to have some serious competition on their hands once the likes of Player Pro get onto the market with the marketing skills of EWQL in particular.



Competition is good. Innovation is good.

Without all of this intense competition and shifts in the industry, we wouldn't have the amazing array of innovative products to choose from that we have today. 

spectrum


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## redleicester (Jul 24, 2008)

Glad to see we're basically singing from the same hymnsheet Eric :D


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 25, 2008)

I am very saddened over this development. Not only because Jim van Buskirk and his Giga developing team were visionaries, but also because the GVI platform was a dream model for developing sampled instruments. If the GVI concept had been allòr^   €kr^   €kr^   €kr^   €kr^   €kr^   €kr^   €kr^   €k r^   €k!r^   €k"r^   €k#r^   €k$r^   €k%r^   €k&r^   €k'r^   €k(r^   €k)r^   €k*r^   €k+r^   €k,r^   €k-r^   €k.r^   €k/r^   €k0r^   €k1r^   €k2r^   €k3r^   €k4r^   €k5r^   €k6r^   €k7r^   €k8r^   €k9r^   €k:r^   €k;r^   €k<r^   €k=r^   €k>r^   €k


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## redleicester (Jul 25, 2008)

Malmsjo for Kontakt Hans? Pleaaaaaassseeee?!

Hope you're well old bean.


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## alanb (Jul 25, 2008)

redleicester @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> the clincher with Kontakt was the existence of the Kompakt player - a genius marketing device whereby they got their own engine into countless products.



This is precisely what GVI was poised and ready to do for the Giga platform.

For both Mac and PC users.

The few GVI-wrapped instruments that made it out are _killer_ . . . and will, hopefully, thrive in some new incarnation.

The beauty of the GVI-wrapped concept, and the nearness of the platform's exposure to the Mac market makes TASCAM's decision particularly incomprehensible.

.


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## redleicester (Jul 25, 2008)

alanb @ Fri Jul 25 said:


> redleicester @ Thu Jul 24 said:
> 
> 
> > the clincher with Kontakt was the existence of the Kompakt player - a genius marketing device whereby they got their own engine into countless products.
> ...



Precisely Alan - the comment was in regard to the suggestion that Kontakt would go in the bin shortly after Giga. If GVI had appeared a lot sooner, then it may well have helped greatly. There are some stunning GS3/4/GVI libraries, but there have been countless cheap and not so cheap ones for Kompakt player for five years now.


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## redleicester (Jul 25, 2008)

Incidentally chaps, just as an aside to the general business discussion, I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the Nemesys / Tascam dev teams for all their hard work.

Without you, and without Giga, my career would have been very different. When Gigasampler first appeared, and suddenly I could use more than a handful of patchesòr‰   €rcr‰   €rdr‰   €rer‰   €rfr‰   €rgr‰   €rhr‰   €rir‰   €rjr‰   €rkr‰   €rlr‰   €rmr‰   €rnr‰   €ror‰   €rpr‰   €rqr‰   €rrr‰   €rsr‰   €rtr‰   €rur‰   €rvr‰   €rwr‰   €rxr‰   €ryr‰   €rzr‰   €r{r‰   €r|r‰   €r}r‰   €r~r‰   €rr‰   €r€r‰   €rr‰   €r‚r‰   €rƒr‰   €r„r‰   €r…r‰   €r†r‰   €r‡r‰   €rˆr‰   €r‰r‰   €rŠr‰


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## John DeBorde (Jul 26, 2008)

Sad thing is, I may have been a good candidate for the upgrade, but knowing the software industry as I do, I like to wait and let the bugs get shaken out before I jump on board if I can at all help it. It's a pity they couldn't even hold out that long. 

My condolences to any of the developers/employees affected by this. Much suckage, I'm sure.

peace,
john


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 26, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just received the latest issue of Computer Music.(CM129). Coincidentally, wrt to the subject of this thread, it has a review of GigaStudio 4. This obviously went to press before Tascam’s announcement. _(BTW, as if to confirm my earlier post which pointed out that this technology is widely available, CM now give away their own Sampler with the attached DVD (as well as a host of other, apparently, very decent synths etc). What is happening is that with the increasingly educated world and rapidly increasing surfeit of gifted programmers they have no outlets for their products. It’s happening in all fields from musicians, bands, artists and authors, for example. There are more creative and talented people than there is market hence the ‘talent churning’ in these fields.)_
> Unfortunately, the reviewers were very unimpressed and gave it a disappointing *6/10.* The review concludes as follows:-
> ...



Rings true.


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## wonshu (Jul 26, 2008)

wow... clearly spoken...


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## Ed (Jul 26, 2008)

Yea people dont really know how to use iMIDI, what a waste!

It would also have been nice to make it easy to transfer iMIDI rules so that someone could easily write one for VSL or something and then upload it for everyone to just use like Kontact scripts. Scripting is just easier to use, even for people that have no idea how it works!!!


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## alanb (Jul 26, 2008)

Rhetorical (or not) question #22 from an admittedly-clueless outsider:

Might the TASCAM leadership have been more forthcoming with money/resources if the retail numbers had been higher all along? Even "bean counters" don't operate in a vacuum...

I'm not trying to refute anything that Peter has written above... I'm just wondering what set of circumstances would justify (or, at least, explain) what he describes...


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## fst (Jul 26, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> Unfortunately, the reviewers were very unimpressed and gave it a disappointing 6/10.


To put that in context, it should be noted that this is from the magazine who tested FX Teleport by installing it on their mail server.... :roll: 



Peter Alexander said:


> GigaPulse, didn't have any documentation for over a year. Nothing.
> Yes, iMIDI replaced the performance tool in VSL. But did anyone write a series of tutorials explaining how? No, they didn't.


+ 1 - and those who asked for assistance in using/implementing these features received none.



Ed said:


> people dont really know how to use iMIDI, what a waste!


Yep, as above. However, you weren't exactly missing much even if you did figure it out :| With the exception of DEF/PRF, which was...ahh yes, also undocumented...


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## alanb (Jul 26, 2008)

Computer Music (CM129) said:


> *“……….Some of these crashes brought the app down, others rebooted the computers. Also, shortly before we went to press, Tascam warned that using the Quicksound database to convert older Giga libraries to GS4 format would render them useless. Yikes!!
> 
> GigaStudio is clunky and, worse, unpredictable. We expect more from software that’s been around this long, especially given its price tag. There are some good ideas here, but we just can’t recommend it in its current state, and would suggest hanging on to that upgrade fee until Tascam works out the kinks.” *



Well, I'll tell you that _my_ copy of GS4 is very nicely stable, and does not crash or reboot my computer. Too bad _I_ didn't get to write the review, LOL...

One of the things that always annoyed me about the GS3 "instability" issues was the fact that the overwhelming majority of the reports I read about online could be traced to two things: _(i)_ running a version earlier than 3.12 on a dual-core machine, and _(ii)_ QS file monitoring being turned "on." Taking care of those two things should have solved so many peoples' problems...

TASCAM can, of course, be blamed for not doing more to bring the problem—and its solution—to the customer base... but I'm still not sure whether the customer base was sufficiently broad (and monied) (and prodigal) to justify spending additional money/resources on better/stronger/faster customer support, PR, and so on..... I have no idea what TASCAM spent each month on Giga's development... nor do I have any idea what TASCAM earned each month on Giga product.

But I digress... Not having access to the entire review, I have no idea what the author means by "clunky" and "unpredictable" . . . I think that Giga has always had a wonderful interface... one that looks good and that fits my workflow patterns nicely.

On the surface, GS4 isn't much different from GS3... so, anyone familiar with GS3 could go right to work in GS4 without even cracking open the manual. What was "unpredictable"?


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## mducharme (Jul 26, 2008)

I had every intention of upgrading to GS4, but was waiting until the first major patch was released to ensure I wouldn't run into stability issues.

Pretty much every program in my experience is unstable in the .0 release and needs to get to .1 to work properly.

It's likely many other users were in the same boat.


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## synthetic (Jul 26, 2008)

The reason we (I) waited so long to document iMIDI with VSL was that the performance tool was essentially VSL's copy protection. Once that was built into GS3 people could circumvent that and copy the library. Even a year or two ago, when I wrote the tutorial on using the iMIDI legato tool for VSL samples, I was expecting an email from them to pull it down. 

I'm not blaming the customers, I'm just saying that the sales were never there to make it profitable. You can't blame a company for discontinuing a product that isn't selling.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 26, 2008)

synthetic @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> You can't blame a company for discontinuing a product that isn't selling.



yep


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 27, 2008)

synthetic @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> British magazines like CM love to slag products and never contact a manufacturer when they have troubles. I'd like to know more about the system he installed on. Most of you know that Giga wants to take over a computer and act as a dedicated sampler. If there was already a bunch of stuff on the computer there might be problems.
> 
> The rest of the post was speculation and nonsense. I don't see a single fact in there. It's amazing what people can make up on the internet. I suppose the NS trolls had to find us one day.
> 
> Especially "far from finished," this is the most stable sampler I've used since my Roland S-760.



Synthetic; It's called _freedom of speech_ (it's in your constitution).....you'll notice the difference in the European _Forums _too; like in the Steinberg or Native Instruments' ones where a lot of the things which are said would cause the poster to be banned if it was posted in a manufacturer's website in the States. Having said that if Tascam had taken a full page monthly advert then the review might have been better....nah...that's just being too cynical. 

I can't, obviously, repeat the whole review as I don't want to be banged up in prison on a Copyright charge. However, they ran GS on two seperate systems with similar results. Their initial criticisms related to hopeless crashing of VST plugins and they said that Tascam actually came up with a patch during their testing which improved but didn't cure the problem. 

They did say that when it behaved it work well with the legendary low latency and I'm sure that with more time and money all the problems would have been solved.....but most of us here probably realise just how much time and therefore money software debugging takes.

How come I'm an instant troll for saying something you don't like? I assume that you're referring to me? I might as well say that if you don't want to hear anything bad and you want to retain your closed mind and blinkers, then you ought to stay in the more comfortable, sanitised, censored and fluffy safety of Northern Sounds.  Oh yes, you actually said "The rest of the post was speculation and _nonsense_"....now that's trolling too, isn't it? 

Whether you are referring to me or not I think that my comments still apply. Some folk need to learn to tolerate differing opinions and the ability to debate without taking it personally.

Cheers

Frank


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## midphase (Jul 27, 2008)

"You can't blame a company for discontinuing a product that isn't selling."

No, but you can blame a company for not addressing user dissatisfaction with the product and hence lowering sales.


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## dxmachina (Jul 27, 2008)

Well, I think I share sentiments with several other users here who are saddened by the loss of GS, but who aren't exactly stunned by it. Let me join in also in thanking the developers for their years of hard work, and frankly, for starting this computer-sampling revolution that has helped to keep me and many others employed for quite some time.

Before saying anything else, first know that I've personally built nearly 20 GS3 machines for A-list film and television composers. As of last week, I just completed my first GS4 system, and the first audio workstation I've ever built utilizing Windows Vista. I'm also a composer who was worked entirely in a native environment for the last five years. 

The main point to GS, and the one that so often gets glossed over, is how much MORE stable it is than any other sampler, and frankly, any other audio software on the market. When it crashes, you know it crashes hard. But what other piece of audio software (or even software, excluding server OS' and related processes) can you think of that will literally function for weeks and months at a time, using the majority of your system's resources, and not need a restart or a handshake. For TV guys who have to write 30-minutes a week, what other solution exists that gives you instant access to that many patch-changeable samples without any load-times?? The damn thing just works.

Don't get me wrong, I really love Kontakt. It's probably the most fully-featured sampler around. But on the few occasions I've attempted to use Kontakt in a Giga-like, always-on environment, it's crashed and burned. Ditto with Brainspawn's Forte, Bidule, V-Stack, etc.. To me, this is the biggest gaping hole that GS' demise as left.

I guess it begs the question, does anyone else have a solution to this problem? Can anyone else maintain a large composer's studio without lots of rebooting and reloading? I'm all ears.

My best to all the developers and dedicated professionals who have been affected by this loss.

-S


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## Hardy Heern (Jul 27, 2008)

What you say must be true, dxmachina, as it has been echoed by other, very serious, giga users like Bruce Richardson who also noted how solid it was when put under severe and heavy workload.

It's a great shame but sadly this can often be the fate of the inventors and innovators......it's often the people who follow on with development who survive and the former who disappear. :( 

Frank


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## dxmachina (Jul 27, 2008)

Well said, Frank. Innovation is never as inextricably bound to success as we might like it to be.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 27, 2008)

dxmachina @ Sun Jul 27 said:


> Well said, Frank. Innovation is never as inextricably bound to success as we might like it to be.



Bull. TrueSpec has been doing Giga Systems for years. This happened because of weak leadership and poor management.


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## dxmachina (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm not arguing what led to the downfall of GS. Others can probably articulate that story better than I. As a product it had many good years. My point is only that it's currently not replaceable in the niche market that it serves. Unless you have another solution I could be made aware of?

Frank's point about it being those who build on good ideas ultimately being more successful than those who were the innovators is one which I don't think you can argue with. Take a handful of people and ask them who invented the personal computer. How many answer "Bill Gates?"

This situation is unfortunate. But we're talking computer software here. Life goes on. Music gets written.

-S


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 27, 2008)

dxmachina @ Sun Jul 27 said:


> I'm not arguing what led to the downfall of GS. Others can probably articulate that story better than I. As a product it had many good years. My point is only that it's currently not replaceable in the niche market that it serves. Unless you have another solution I could be made aware of?
> 
> Frank's point about it being those who build on good ideas ultimately being more successful than those who were the innovators is one which I don't think you can argue with. Take a handful of people and ask them who invented the personal computer. How many answer "Bill Gates?"
> 
> ...



I have a column appearing on this very subject next week. They were offered the opportunities but declined them. There was no reason they couldn't have developed as NI did and beyond that because with TEAC's manufacturing power, they had capabilities far beyond the norm.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 29, 2008)

Giga Editorial Link
http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=1768


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## Ed (Jul 30, 2008)

synthetic @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> The reason we (I) waited so long to document iMIDI with VSL was that the performance tool was essentially VSL's copy protection. Once that was built into GS3 people could circumvent that and copy the library. Even a year or two ago, when I wrote the tutorial on using the iMIDI legato tool for VSL samples, I was expecting an email from them to pull it down.



Im glad you sort of did one eventually (sort of because it was unofficial on this one forum). But I know you can get cracks for the performance tool, so the hardest part about cracking VSL would be to download the MASSIVE content. THATS their REAL copy protection. 

As it was, you made these cool iMIDI features then only about 2 people used them several years later because no one knew how to make it work. On the other hand Kontakt scripting enabled people to easily write and find out how to write scripts to do the same kind of things and you could even transfer them to other users easily. They included EVEN MORE VSL content into K2 than Giga3 had, yet they didnt leave the userbase scratching thier heads wondering what and how to use scripting for years and years.


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 30, 2008)

Dave, I'm not understand your mention og GS 16-bit. Giga has been up to 24/96 since GS3.0. In fact, I've heard mention from Synthetic several times that he thought giga actually had a better sound than Kontakt, and after putting some time into familiarizing myself with K2, I'm inclined to agree. Giga has kept up well with audio quality standards, especially considering that it offered a proprietary compression scheme that could reduce sample-pool size considerably without loss of quality. 

That's a feature I'll miss a lot - porting over to Kontakt is bloating my libraries to about 1.5 the size _and_ reducing audio fidelity....but of course it offers many perks, most of which I'll take a while to master. For now I'll just gripe  

Belbin


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## Thonex (Jul 30, 2008)

Mark Belbin @ Wed Jul 30 said:


> That's a feature I'll miss a lot - porting over to Kontakt is bloating my libraries to about 1.5 the size _and_ reducing audio fidelity....but of course it offers many perks, most of which I'll take a while to master. For now I'll just gripe
> 
> Belbin



Mark,

Actually, as you learn more about Kontakt's DFD settings, you may be able to load about 1.5 to 2 times as many samples as compared to Giga.. with greater polyphony than Giga. I discovered this when I ported my VSL Opus stuff over to Kontakt.

YMMV (you mileage may vary)

T


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## JohnG (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi Thonex,

Perhaps I am the only one basking in ignorance, but -- I am able to load so much in Giga that I am surprised you are getting so much more into Kontakt. I think I have fiddled with the DFD settings until I am ready to -- something -- but I am sure I am not alone in wondering what you have been up to?

There is a useful "starting point" in the FAQ on NI's website regarding DFD settings, but beyond that, you may have created a new recipe.

So, congratulations! And if you are interested in discussing, maybe a new thread?

(For those interested, here's the link on NI: It's number 37 titled "Optimising Kontakt's Performance" http://www.native-instruments.com/knowledge/categories/Kontakt/Kontakt+2/?page=4 (http://www.native-instruments.com/knowl ... +2/?page=4) )


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## redleicester (Jul 30, 2008)

synthetic @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> British magazines like CM love to slag products and never contact a manufacturer when they have troubles.



Careful whom you tar with that brush old bean.... >8o 

Not all magazines are created equal, and not all of the transgressors are British either.


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## Thonex (Jul 30, 2008)

JohnG @ Wed Jul 30 said:


> Hi Thonex,
> 
> Perhaps I am the only one basking in ignorance, but -- I am able to load so much in Giga that I am surprised you are getting so much more into Kontakt. I think I have fiddled with the DFD settings until I am ready to -- something -- but I am sure I am not alone in wondering what you have been up to?
> 
> ...



Hi,

Just to be clear... I'm talking about K2... (I don't own K3 yet).

I'm not at my studio.... and will be in Ohio for a week (taking my kids to see their great gramma while they can) but the basic idea is to go into the DFD setting and set the Pre-load buffer to (say) 32k as opposed to 64. That in-and-of-itself will double the amount you can load. Depending on your HD performance and whether you are running a raid Zero config or if you have really fast HDs you could take it down to 18k Pre-load.... rJames does this.

In fact, rJames is somewhat of an expert on this as he tries to pile as much in to K2 as he can on 1 machine.

When I get back into the studio, I'll look at my exact setting and post them. Maybe we can get others who have big multies do the same so we can compare settings.

Cheers,

T


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## JohnG (Jul 30, 2008)

Thank you, Thonex. That is very generous of you.


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## Mark Belbin (Jul 30, 2008)

Thanks, Thonex. I'm not sure if I'll need to do much DFD tweaking...hardly ever load large templates/push the limits while developing a single instrument library. But it is an appealing feature. Next time I actually compose (rare these days) I'll play with it.

-M


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## Jake Johnson (Aug 18, 2008)

I can't understand why they would just drop it instead of selling it. It makes no sense. Surely someone, somewhere, would have come forward to purchase it.


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## the sinner (Aug 18, 2008)

we should all throw down a 100 bucks and buy it


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## synthetic (Aug 18, 2008)

Send cash to me and I'll see what I can do.


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