# The Loneliness Of The Long Distance Runner:Mental Health



## Lurker (Sep 18, 2020)

Modest success in this business has come at a price for me.I do yoga,exercise, have largely given up drinking, spend time with my family, but the constant 7 long days a week and little sleep is getting to me too often these days.I know JXL has spoken about anxiety and cognitive therapy which has worked for him.Does anybody out there have any advice? My only vice is drinking too much coffee.I take a low dose SRI.Does anybody out there manage to get time off? I must add that I work alone...independent films and tv series, mostly.


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## jcrosby (Sep 18, 2020)

Anxiety and not enough sleep aren't uncommon in this business. Coffee keeps me running as well, but it also can agitate anxiety. Now I drink basically as much coffee, but make every pot half decaf. Coffee is a stronger stimulant than people sometimes realize and it can interfere with sleep. I'd try moving to half caffeinated and see if that at least helps you sleep a little better. It might also reduce your anxiety a bit.

I can relate to working day in and out. It's hard to get off the treadmill. That said if you don't have to work 7 days a week you should take at least one day a week off, ideally two (No way of knowing your situation since you didn't specify...) All work and no play, etc....

As far as handling the mentality of anxiety, one thing that has helped me get a handle on it is meditating. Interestingly I've found over the years that reading about meditation is useless. The thing that has worked for me is following a 'guided meditation'. It's basically just someone verbally teaching you how to meditate. Linked a few below... If you can't let yourself to give up a day a week yet, at least try something like committing yourself to a longer time one day a week. Find two different ones you like and practice them in succession. (2x 20 mins...) The shorter ones can be useful to break up your work with a 10-20 mins pause. (I've found this can have a huge impact on the quality of my work, and/or my ability to persevere onward during a tough project).

Meditation is more or less a form a behavioral therapy. Its uses in clinical psychology are supported by this Harvard Medical article:




__





Meditation in psychotherapy - Harvard Health


Meditation may play an important role in the treatment of mental illness. ...




www.health.harvard.edu





Classical/Tibetan-based Meditations by PhD (lectures at Harvard Medical and practices meditation focused psych):








Meditations | Free Guided Meditations | Chris Germer


Meditations - Chris Germer is a clinical psychologist, meditation practitioner, author, and teacher of mindfulness and compassion




chrisgermer.com





This one might seem a little _new-agey _on the surface_, _but it's actually really helpful in teaching you how to learn how to observe your thoughts without engaging with them:

__


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## Lurker (Sep 18, 2020)

Thank you so much for the above, and I am definitely going to try the decaf route.The guided mindful meditation is definitely going to help.Thanks again.The 7 days a week is the result of not feeling confident enough to say no to tv series work.Its a tough one because one spends a few years trying to get good work and then when it comes there is little time left to enjoy the fruits of one's labour.However these are exactly the tips i was looking for so once again a deep thank you hope you have a great day.


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## Lurker (Sep 19, 2020)

The half decaf pot definitely works tastes better than i thought it would.


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## wst3 (Sep 20, 2020)

I would like to second (underscore??) the recommendation to try meditation. I am sure it won't work for everyone, and it requires tremendous discipline to build a routine (why meditate when you could be exploring that new plugin or completing an assignment?) - but it will help. And it is just as difficult to build a routine around walking or weight lifting or pretty much anything outside your passion. I bet you don't remember the struggle to turn practice into a routine<G>!

Anyway, I've gotten away from meditation, again, and need to get back to it. When I make it part of my day I find I can be more productive.

Regardless of what you try, I wish you god luck in finding a solution.

I should probably also mention that I tried the half-caf coffee thing - at my wife's "suggestion", but it never quite caught on. Could be all in my head, but I didn't find it as effective as a jump start first thing, and I've never had a caffeine related problem with sleeping.

However, I was getting agitated and anxious during the day, so my current solution is one pot of coffee a day, when it's gone I switch to water. So far it has worked really well for me, no more agitation/anxiety, and I still get that kick in the seat first thing in the morning. (I do reward myself, rarely, with a coffee after dinner, mostly when I am out with friends, which hasn't happened is a while now!)


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## Lurker (Sep 20, 2020)

Thank you...the guided meditation helps,I just use it for 10min at stressful times.One pot a day would be difficult for me...so for now half decaf is definitely an improvement.


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## jcrosby (Sep 20, 2020)

Lurker said:


> Thank you so much for the above, and I am definitely going to try the decaf route.The guided mindful meditation is definitely going to help.Thanks again.The 7 days a week is the result of not feeling confident enough to say no to tv series work. Its a tough one because one spends a few years trying to get good work and then when it comes there is little time left to enjoy the fruits of one's labour.However these are exactly the tips i was looking for so once again a deep thank you hope you have a great day.


You bet. And I can totally relate. While I write production music, the main library I write for handles only broadcast TV. It's easy to get caught up in not turning down work. I'm prone to working way more than I should myself. That said I did hit a point where I kind of felt myself burned out which lead me to meditating...

Being a bit of a skeptic by nature I researched it pretty thoroughly. Turns out neuroscience has been studying this extensively for 15+ years and there's a ton of research on it. The activity/effects of meditation can be seen during scans, and have been shown to have effects that last for an extended period if practiced over a long span.

Like anything you practice, plasticity's involved. The data shows that meditation not only helps in the short term for reducing immediate anxiety, it has a longer term effect as your brain starts to make new neural pathways that develop though regular meditation. Even short periods of daily meditation have been shown to have a long term impact. There've been studies where people have meditated for 5 minutes at a time daily over several months, even this has long term improvements.... Meditating for longer periods can bring stress way down in the short term.

Also hear ya on the coffee! It actually tastes fine, and mixing it 50/50 with caffeinated definitely improves the flavor and means you can still enjoy your coffee! And glad its working for you.. I can see how this doesn't for some, the main point is to be aware that while coffee's great (and it IS ) it can increase anxiety and/or interfere with sleep. Basically it's at least good to be aware of it... If you can find a way to moderate it that works for you even better..

You also might want to try the exercise below... I've been doing to twice a day for a couple years and it's helped me to become much better at managing stress and anxiety, especially in the moment.

Here's a quick precursor about the biology of stress, anxiety, etc:




4-7-8 Breathing Practice:


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## Lurker (Sep 20, 2020)

Thank you thank you.I have also been trying Wim Hof breathing method but I think the above is a little easier to fit into my day whilst tracks are bouncing etc.The saying no to work is difficult when one has a mortgage to pay...but its something I'm going to have to get stronger about.I must admit I am intimidated by the interviews with composers like Zimmer or Christian Henson...they never seem to sleep, they never seem to be overwhelmed or burnt out.Iron men and women.


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## jcrosby (Sep 21, 2020)

I'm not saying say no to work so much as try and put a little time aside in the week for yourself. You Should be able to find 10-15 mins a day. You mentioned doing yoga. Maybe you could alternate days where one day you do yoga, the next day you try one of the meditations for the same amount of time. Just try it out for a couple weeks see if you notice a difference... If you prefer yoga no worries. That's what works for you.. Definitely not saying take less work though, no matter what niche you're in this business doesn't give you any wiggle room for that...


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## Daryl (Sep 21, 2020)

Let me offer a bit of advice from my experience:

1. Don't work a 7 day week. Nobody needs to do that. It's really not worth it.

2. If you really do need to put some work in over a weekend, limit your hours, and be satisfied when you have done them

3. Realise that some stress is good. You just have to make sure it's the right sort of stress. A deadline can stimulate creative juices, so can be good. Worrying about having bills coming in, and you don't have money, is not good.

4. There is no point worrying about that which you can't control. I know it sounds easy, but it's something I practice all the time, and have for many years.

5 Always remember the bottom line. It is possible to walk away. We all have transferable skills. We don't need a big house,. We don't need to live in an expensive area. We don't need to score shitty TV programmes or films. We just need enough money to live on, and to have a life. There is no shame in walking away. You're not letting anyone down, least of all, yourself. You are protecting yourself. Once you fully accept that you can walk away, you may find that stress levels reduce anyway.


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## Yellow Studio (Sep 21, 2020)

I don't know this reduce anxiety but this is what I do everyday to try to stay healthy.
Some meditation.
Qigong


Read books about mental training, mindfullness etc.
For instance: https://booksfromnorway.com/books/256-no-mercy-be-your-best-with-mental-training

A walk everyday 30-60 min, A lot of short breaks( I have problems with my neck and shoulders). I don't drink coffee after 6:30pm
I try to go to sleep same time everyday.
I'm not so good at it but I try to make lists of what to do. It helps my brain to relax and tasks that take 2 minutes to do I do immediately.

Maybe you should check some books for sleeping?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 21, 2020)

The bottom line is, working 7 days a week is too much. No fancy way of recreation method can make up for that.

What is it with all this work all the time anyway? I never understood that. It's as is people didn't have anything better to do.


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## el-bo (Sep 21, 2020)

Caffeine, like other drugs, is insidious in nature. The user ends up chasing their tail trying to counter the effect of the drop that follows the high. It would be the first place i'd look to make changes when trying to deal with anxiety.

Also, a lot of good recommendations here for meditation and mindfulness practices. I'd like to recommend someone I have found to be really helpful in dealing with anxiety, depression etc. While her grounding and spiritual foundation seems more towards Buddhism, her talks, advice and meditations are very grounded, secular and universally applicable. Not much woo-woo, but a lot of calm, and even some jokes:


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## easyrider (Sep 21, 2020)

This may sound crazy.....But an apple tree blew down in my garden after a storm...It was a tree that used to have my Tree house in it as a kid...My neighbour came around with his chain saw and cut it up and cleared it away. All I was left with was a stump in the garden....

Few months passed and the stump always depressed me...Also it was a PITA cutting the grass around it.

I spoke to me neighbour who was a landscaper and who cut the tree up..I said you gotta get rid of this stump...He said it would leave a massive hole in the garden and I would need to get some top soil to fill the hole and re-seed it with grass. I said fine.

A week later he came around with his JCB and dug the stump up. He put it on his truck. I was left with a huge hole in the garden.

I was suffering with Stress and Anxiety at the time and little things seem to be things...My motivation was low and I really was not in a good place....Anyway to cut along story short he said rather than fill the hole in why dont I use this hole to my advantage....He said build a pond....I said I'm not into ponds ill just put the hole back to grass. Anyway I went inside the house to make my neighbour a coffee and on my return he was doing this...











































I have to tell you I was bit shocked! He said your garden can take it and that was the beginning of my recovery....My pond became my therapy...I thought I would just fill it up with water and that would be it...How wrong I was.....My journey had only just begun!


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## davidson (Sep 21, 2020)

@easyrider So you went inside to make a brew, you come back out, and even though you told him not to, your neighbour dug a huge f**k off hole in your garden with his jcb?! I'm assuming you buried him in it?


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## el-bo (Sep 21, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I have to tell you I was bit shocked! He said your garden can take it and that was the beginning of my recovery....My pond became my therapy...I thought I would just fill it up with water and that would be it...How wrong I was.....My journey had only just begun!



One of those rare moments where "Cool Story, Bro!" can be used in a non-ironic sense


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## MartinH. (Sep 21, 2020)

I think for guided meditations this channel is worth checking out:









The Honest Guys - Meditations - Relaxation


We have some of the best guided #meditation and guided #sleep meditation experiences on the web, with our expanding library of high quality guided imagery, #...




www.youtube.com





I never managed to stick with anything like that long enough to turn it into a habbit though.




easyrider said:


> and little things seem to be things



#relatable


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## easyrider (Sep 21, 2020)

davidson said:


> @easyrider So you went inside to make a brew, you come back out, and even though you told him not to, your neighbour dug a huge f**k off hole in your garden with his jcb?! I'm assuming you buried him in it?



Well what he started was one of the best experiences of my life...Best thing he ever done...That pond has been my way out of the dark!


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## easyrider (Sep 21, 2020)




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## easyrider (Sep 21, 2020)

I have no idea how many hundreds of hours it took me to build...but every rock was placed by hand.

This my Pond last year July 2018






This is it July 2019


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 21, 2020)

I used to be a musician. Then I dropped out of the rat race. Today, I live in the countryside, and spend my days arranging garden ponds and making beautiful toe paintings until they get me for my bedtime.


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## Lurker (Sep 22, 2020)

Yellow Studio said:


> I don't know this reduce anxiety but this is what I do everyday to try to stay healthy.
> Some meditation.
> Qigong
> 
> ...





el-bo said:


> Caffeine, like other drugs, is insidious in nature. The user ends up chasing their tail trying to counter the effect of the drop that follows the high. It would be the first place i'd look to make changes when trying to deal with anxiety.
> 
> Also, a lot of good recommendations here for meditation and mindfulness practices. I'd like to recommend someone I have found to be really helpful in dealing with anxiety, depression etc. While her grounding and spiritual foundation seems more towards Buddhism, her talks, advice and meditations are very grounded, secular and universally applicable. Not much woo-woo, but a lot of calm, and even some jokes:



Thank you !


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## jonathanwright (Sep 22, 2020)

ITA with the sentiments that working 7 days is bad, bad, bad. And nothing is going to be able to counteract that. Our bodies and minds just aren't built for it.

If that also means you spend everyday stuck in front of your DAW, with little interaction (as is the case for many), then it's doubly as bad for you.

I went through something of a burn out, it crept up on me after several years of continuous work.

In the end, it was only doing something _completely different_, that involved interaction with other people that set me back on the right track.


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## Lurker (Sep 22, 2020)

Thank you it makes me feel less of a weakling for feeling like I'm losing the plot.


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## easyrider (Sep 22, 2020)

Lurker said:


> Thank you it makes me feel less of a weakling for feeling like I'm losing the plot.




Sharing shows strength not weakness...


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## Lurker (Sep 22, 2020)

The less interaction with session players because of cov worsens the isolation.My wife is a CEO so there is a double whammy of workaholic behaviour in our household.


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## Lurker (Sep 22, 2020)

jonathanwright said:


> ITA with the sentiments that working 7 days is bad, bad, bad. And nothing is going to be able to counteract that. Our bodies and minds just aren't built for it.
> 
> If that also means you spend everyday stuck in front of your DAW, with little interaction (as is the case for many), then it's doubly as bad for you.
> 
> ...


How long did the recovery process take if I may ask ?


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## Tim_Wells (Sep 22, 2020)

I can definitely empathize with your struggle. I agree that working 7 days a week, long hours is not good for anyone.

If your looking for a general starting place, I can recommend this book. It's easy to read and follow. It mixes Cognitive Behavioral Therapy with some Mindfulness techniques, which are both science based therapies. 

https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asin=B07CH2PS4K&preview=newtab&linkCode=kpe&ref_=cm_sw_r_kb_dp_peGAFbXBMY5D7
All the best in your journey!! ♥


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 22, 2020)

Wow! That pond looks really peaceful. I think there is a calming effect that water has on some of us. For my part, it's the sound of the ocean - the endless crash of waves...


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## jonathanwright (Sep 22, 2020)

Lurker said:


> How long did the recovery process take if I may ask ?



I was very fortunate, as my partner was able to support me financially if I needed it, plus I had PRO income.

This allowed me to give myself 6 months 'off'. I still worked to earn some money, but it was completely unrelated to music. It also gave me the opportunity to take my laptop and do my work in a variety of different places and with other people for a change.

I also made a concerted effort to 'go somewhere'. We have a gym in our apartment building, but I joined one a short distance away to give me a change of surroundings and people. It was little things like that, that made a big difference.

Around 3 months in I started to get the urge to open my DAW again, which was a great feeling. I resisted and gave myself a bit longer though, so I didn't jump back in too soon.

During the recent COVID lockdown (I'm in the UK), so, so many of my friends have been marvelling at the joys of working from home. I keep trying to tell them not to think it's a bed of roses forever, and at some point they'll be grateful for human interaction. Unfortunately it falls on deaf ears, despite one of them becoming agoraphobic!


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## Lurker (Sep 26, 2020)

jonathanwright said:


> I was very fortunate, as my partner was able to support me financially if I needed it, plus I had PRO income.
> 
> This allowed me to give myself 6 months 'off'. I still worked to earn some money, but it was completely unrelated to music. It also gave me the opportunity to take my laptop and do my work in a variety of different places and with other people for a change.
> 
> ...


Thank you for replying it helps to realise others also need to step back.I wish you all the very best


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## jonathanwright (Sep 26, 2020)

Lurker said:


> Thank you for replying it helps to realise others also need to step back.I wish you all the very best



You're welcome, take care.


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## MartinH. (Sep 28, 2020)

jonathanwright said:


> despite one of them becoming agoraphobic!



Maybe they're not getting enough daylight. That can have really profound effects but you never feel like you don't get enough light when that happens, so they might not make that connection. Those light therapy lamps against seasonal affective disorders can do wonders if lack of sunlight is the cause. 


I wonder if lack of social contact sneaks up on you in the same way without ever making you feel like that's the _reason _for feeling bad?


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## jonathanwright (Sep 28, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Maybe they're not getting enough daylight. That can have really profound effects but you never feel like you don't get enough light when that happens, so they might not make that connection. Those light therapy lamps against seasonal affective disorders can do wonders if lack of sunlight is the cause.
> 
> 
> I wonder if lack of social contact sneaks up on you in the same way without ever making you feel like that's the _reason _for feeling bad?



In their case it’s because they’ve become comfortable with the ‘safety’ at home. Several months inside working, without having to deal with the real world.

You’re absolutely right that it sneaks up. It’s usually a case of a persons world getting slowly ‘smaller’, until one day they’re only living within their own safe limits.

The frog and boiling water effect!


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## Voider (Sep 29, 2020)

Honest question: What stops you guys from working only 5-6 days a week? Do you charge too few money? Are you bad at demanding healthy working times? Or is your workflow super unoptimized so that you could actually save 2 days a week but this way you can't? Why don't you meet friends and go outside and enjoy life on those free days to recover?

Instead of looking into meditation and books, I'd try to change the initial situation.

Especially if you all accept these working conditions, and say "yes" to every crunchtime, or take any little gig instead of waiting for the better paid ones, maybe even some free or almost non paid ones inbetween, you're helping setting this little standard for the whole industry, because clients will believe: "Oh, that's what composers are willing to work like/for".


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## Daryl (Sep 29, 2020)

Voider said:


> Honest question: What stops you guys from working only 5-6 days a week?


That's an easy one. Fear. "Someone else might get the gig, do it well, and then I'll never be asked again". It's the usual self doubt that most creative people have. The same reason why people don't want to charge too much.


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## Voider (Sep 29, 2020)

Daryl said:


> That's an easy one. Fear. "Someone else might get the gig, do it well, and then I'll never be asked again". It's the usual self doubt that most creative people have. The same reason why people don't want to charge too much.



That's fine, let them have the gig. And let yourself have the extra time, it will benefit your quality work within the 5-6 working days a week. It will feel better to work for something you feel valued at anyway. And especially have the capability to say yes to actually good gigs when they come in, instead of being busy with so many _I usually wouldn't do them but I hope they help me out _gigs that you don't have time and space for the real interesting offerings when they knock on your door.


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## AlexRuger (Sep 30, 2020)

Voider said:


> That's fine, let them have the gig. And let yourself have the extra time, it will benefit your quality work within the 5-6 working days a week. It will feel better to work for something you feel valued at anyway. And especially have the capability to say yes to actually good gigs when they come in, instead of being busy with so many _I usually wouldn't do them but I hope they help me out _gigs that you don't have time and space for the real interesting offerings when they knock on your door.


Come on, we all know it isn't that simple. Saying "no" can be a permanent thing -- you may never hear from that client again. And sometimes those gigs that you want to say no to but feel you can't are those interesting ones that will help you out more indirectly, so of course you just try to fit it in on top of the less interesting/"just for the bills" gigs.

It takes a lot of time and effort and grinding away to get to that more secure place where you feel you can say no, such as having a high volume of tracks with libraries getting consistently placed, a TV show or two bringing in consistent residuals, etc. But by that point, you might have an agent who _really _doesn't want to say no to their 15% cut, so you feel forced to say yes from that angle and have to hire a team to help keep the gears turning, and now your overhead has gone up and you aren't really making any more money than you were before, and thus feel just as financially insecure as ever.


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## jcrosby (Sep 30, 2020)

Voider said:


> Instead of looking into meditation and books, I'd try to change the initial situation.
> 
> Especially if you all accept these working conditions, and say "yes" to every crunchtime, or take any little gig instead of waiting for the better paid ones, maybe even some free or almost non paid ones inbetween, you're helping setting this little standard for the whole industry, because clients will believe: "Oh, that's what composers are willing to work like/for".


This industry has always run like this. To paraphrase Alan Meyerson - he once '_took a gig that required him to stay up for 3 straight days because - if he didn't the next guy in line would'_. Post production doesn't wait for anyone. 

And adding meditation to your life isn't some kind of new age placebo. There is an incredible amount of neuroscience research that shows that meditation actually creates physiological changes in the brain and reduces stress hormones. Not to mention it helps you get a handle on the dialogue you keep with yourself by learning how to _observe_ your thinking instead of engaging with, or reacting to it.


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2020)

AlexRuger said:


> Come on, we all know it isn't that simple. Saying "no" can be a permanent thing -- you may never hear from that client again.



Why would you wanna hear from a client again that in the first place offered you a job that is un/underpaid / doesn't fit your working mentality / is bad for your mental health? And then just "eventually" on top of that, and if he does it's not even safe that he comes up with a better offering, maybe another worse job you are not passionate about.

Personally if I get a terrible job offering I have no ambitions to hear another terrible job offering from the same person, and I wouldn't shed a tear if someone else gets that one.




AlexRuger said:


> so of course you just try to fit it in on top of the less interesting/"just for the bills" gigs.



You could work part time "just for the bills" with probably better salary, mental health and take the other half for musical projects you're really interested in and that give you something that fulfils you.



AlexRuger said:


> It takes a lot of time and effort and grinding away to get to that more secure place where you feel you can say no, such as having a high volume of tracks with libraries getting consistently placed, a TV show or two bringing in consistent residuals, etc.




I think it's already the "wrong" path to try to take any gig and any job you can get just to do somehow music for a living. I guess that's against why 99% of the people here started composing. If you are not in love with jingles and advertisements, why would you still spend a majority of your lifetime to do them, just "to pay the bills"? Again: You could work part-time to pay the bills and spend the other half for stuff you actually like, even if it takes longer to land a gig on that.



jcrosby said:


> he once '_took a gig that required him to stay up for 3 straight days because - if he didn't the next guy in line would'_.



I'm absolutely fine when the next guy in line get's that un/underpaid job that is bad for your mental health and takes away your time to be spend on jobs that you actually like to do and are interested in and passionate about.

When you lower your standards you become the creator of the own unhappy world you end up in because you tell the outside world you're up to do that over and over again. 

One major gig that mabye doesn't suit you 100% but definitely brings you further - fine, no problem. But being constantly caged into scoring 7 days a week low budget series and documentaries and advertisements you don't care about sounds like a real bad deal to me.


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## AlexRuger (Sep 30, 2020)

Voider said:


> Why would you wanna hear from a client again that in the first place offered you a job that is un/underpaid / doesn't fit your working mentality / is bad for your mental health? And then just "eventually" on top of that, and if he does, then even again, eventually better, maybe still worse.
> 
> So again, why would you wanna hear from him again?
> 
> ...


I'm not necessarily talking about shit underpaid gigs. Contrary to the belief of this forum, not all gigs line up neatly into two clean categories of "score a feature film for $500" and "be an A-list composer."

This dynamic of overwork is common in the industry for a reason, and not just because people are waltzing into poorly-paid jobs without a complaint. There's a lot more to it, some of which I tried to lay out in my last post (e.g. the agent dynamic, which you totally ignored in your reply). We're talking about two different things here -- why working composers often have no choice but to work themselves to the bone. You're talking about not really being that, i.e. your support for working part-time. That's a fine path to take if you choose to take it, but prescribing "just take path B" to fix the problems of part A isn't exactly helpful or productive.

Also, what world do you live in where working part-time pays the bills?


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2020)

AlexRuger said:


> I'm not necessarily talking about shit underpaid gigs. Contrary to the belief of this forum, not all gigs line up neatly into two clean categories of "score a feature film for $500" and "be an A-list composer."



But I was referring in my post - to which you've replied - to gigs people seem to suffer on, because they're overworking themselves with tons of projects they seem not even to be exited about.



AlexRuger said:


> This dynamic of overwork is common in the industry for a reason, and not just because people are waltzing into poorly-paid jobs without a complaint.



It is because a lot of people want to be a composer at no matter what cost, which ends up in composers taking a lot of unpaid or underpaid gigs that force them to work on so much stuff that they have 7 working days a week, which again results in lowering the standard for the whole (low-tier) industry.

Tell me, what normal job in the normal world out there would anyone pick if they've been told in the job interview that they'd work 7 days a week? Probably noone except it's about life and death. I don't see why musicans should be trated different or why you should treat yourself like that. But you as a musican are nothing different than a brand out there, and if you sell yourself as a cheap brand, having after a few years a portfolio with a lot of cheap work, that's how the world outside will perceive you and what you get.

Like nobody is gonna pay 20 bucks for the known cheap chocolate brand that usually goes for 40 cent because people remember that, you will have a hard time getting out of that cheap segement if you build your whole career in that field. Just saying, but here everyone has their own view on business, I just tell you mine.



AlexRuger said:


> There's a lot more to it, some of which I tried to lay out in my last post (e.g. the agent dynamic, which you totally ignored in your reply).



What should I say about your fictional example where your agent does decide for you and you just end up saying yes even if you feel that the 15% cut is way too low? My answer is, then negotiate it yourself and do it better or learn to say no. You most likely will feel not being able to deny because you want to be a full time composer at any cost - that's fine. I have a different philosophy here.



AlexRuger said:


> That's a fine path to take if you choose to take it, but prescribing "just take path B" to fix the problems of part A isn't exactly helpful or productive.



It does fix part A because instead of being busy with an underpaid project you wouldn't do under normal conditions, you now have the time to say yes when the good offerings come in. Or to work on your portfolio and brand to get closer to those gigs, but in a way that brings you most forward. And last but not least, if most composers would follow this route, directors would have a hard time finding good composers doing underpaid jobs or buying 100€ tracks from libraries that usually would've cost 10.000€.



AlexRuger said:


> Also, what world do you live in where working part-time pays the bills?



Depends completely on your education and living standard. You could work 115 hours a month in a part time job. That leaves you 55-65+ extra hours per month to work on gigs / musical income while being at 0,0% overworking (so you can still extend then and when, if *you* want). That's over 6000 hours a year. Should not be black magic to make a decent side-income next to your part-time job with 6000 hours that gone into music and bring you somewhere. But this time with the confidence not "being forced" to take any job and actually being able to work on your own goals and find offerings that sound good to you.


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## AlexRuger (Sep 30, 2020)

Voider said:


> What should I say about your fictional example where your agent does decide for you and you just end up saying yes even if you feel that the 15% cut is way too low? My answer is, then negotiate it yourself and do it better or learn to say no. You most likely will feel not being able to deny because you want to be a full time composer at any cost - that's fine. I have a different philosophy here.



This right here is all the proof I need that you're just inexperienced as to the realities of this business. I'm not going to argue against the confidence of ignorance. Wish you the best.


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2020)

AlexRuger said:


> This right here is all the proof I need that you're just inexperienced as to the realities of this business. I'm not going to argue against the confidence of ignorance. Wish you the best.


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## jcrosby (Sep 30, 2020)

Voider said:


> I'm absolutely fine when the next guy in line get's that un/underpaid job that is bad for your mental health and takes away your time to be spend on jobs that you actually like to do and are interested in and passionate about.
> 
> When you lower your standards you become the creator of the own unhappy world you end up in because you tell the outside world you're up to do that over and over again.
> 
> One major gig that mabye doesn't suit you 100% but definitely brings you further - fine, no problem. But being constantly caged into scoring 7 days a week low budget series and documentaries and advertisements you don't care about sounds like a real bad deal to me.


Alan Meyerson isn't exactly underpaid, I used him for that reason. Even someone playing at the top of their niche realizes for every one of you there are 100 guys who'll take the gig for half the pay.

You're projecting the viewpoint of someone working themselves to death by taking low paying gigs against the OP who has specified they have ongoing TV series work and a mortgage to pay. For people that want to stay active and maintain a level of success the reality is this is an industry where you don't have the luxury of turning down high quality, well paying work.


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Alan Meyerson isn't exactly underpaid. You're projecting the viewpoint of someone taking low paying gigs against the OP who has specified they have ongoing TV series and a mortgage to pay.



Nowhere I have related my posts to the OP or a specific person, which should've been clear as I've refered to "you guys" in my initial post when I've asked what stops you (plural) from working _only _5-6 days a week. It was directed to anyone who works 7 days a week as a composer, and I am sure not everyone has mortgage to pay.

But it was related to the topic, about working so much that mental illness, loneliness and other unhealthy conditions appear. Like I said before, individual living standards and the education/degree one achieved plays a big role in how flexibel someone is to work part time or even full time in another job at least temporarily, which I would actually consider if I'd have mortgage to pay but my gigs pay so low that I need to work 7 days a week to survive while it's crushing my mental health.


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## jcrosby (Sep 30, 2020)

Voider said:


> Nowhere I have related my posts to the OP or a specific person, which should've been clear as I've refered to "you guys" in my initial post when I've asked what stops you (plural) from working _only _5-6 days a week. It was directed to anyone who works 7 days a week as a composer, and I am sure not everyone has mortgage to pay.
> 
> But it was related to the topic, about working so much that mental illness, loneliness and other unhealthy conditions appear. Like I said before, individual living standards and the education/degree one achieved plays a big role in how flexibel someone is to work part time or even full time in another job at least temporarily, which I would actually consider if I have mortgage to pay but my gigs pay so low that I need to work 7 days a week to survive while it's crushing my mental health.


Composing isn't a 'side job' or 'part time work' for the OP. Again, this is someone with a full time gig. A gig that if they walked from they wouldn't get back.


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2020)

Voider said:


> *Nowhere I have related my posts to the OP* or a specific person, which should've been clear as I've refered to "you guys" in my initial post





jcrosby said:


> But you're ignoring the fact that the composing isn't a 'side job' or 'part time work' *for the OP*. Again, this is someone with a full time gig. A gig that if they walked from they wouldn't get back


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## jcrosby (Sep 30, 2020)

So why are you participating in a thread if your thoughts are irrelevant to the person who posted the original query? This person is asking for insight into managing stress and anxiety as it relates to someone with a full time gig. Add a mortgage into the equation and you have a very different level of anxiety and stress than someone doing this part time.


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> So why are you participating in a thread if you don't have something constructive to offer the person who created the thread?



Why are my advices about how to make time and space in your life for yourself, and an alternative view on ways of working healthier as composer, to someone who seeks help because he feels overworked and lonely not constructive ideas for him? And why do you believe that you'd need to decide that for him? He even asked if we manage to get time off.

This gig won't last forever. One day it's finished and then the OP will face the question if it was worth it,
if it boosted his career significantly, if that was only an exception or the 365 days-a-year _work life experience -_ and if so, how to approach that better in the future if he feels that this is pulling on his mental health.

There's a lot of talk in this forum about the philosophy of composing, what's worth it and what not, and how to pursue this dream best. It's pointless to act like there is only one particular situation, forever, for everyone, and no way out. And it's totally fine to talk about this in a broader picture.

You might recommend youtube meditation videos for temporarily relaxation, I recommend trying to change the overall situation for the future asap, if someone is truly unhappy with the way it goes. Plenty of good examples in this and other threads here of people who did and are absolutely happy with that choice. Fulltime composing, at least in specific points in life, is not for everyone and it can be hard to admit that and pull back, at least for a while. Because we're in love with what we do and we did invest an insane amount of time and money into our skills and careers before even getting a single penny out of it.

I'm out of this thread for now, I need to finish two projects soon and I don't want to end up working in crunch time too.

Cheers ✌ :emoji_maple_leaf:


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## MartinH. (Sep 30, 2020)

Daryl said:


> That's an easy one. Fear. "Someone else might get the gig, do it well, and then I'll never be asked again".



That's literally how I feel right now. I turned down 3 good jobs (not music related, but doesn't matter) a year ago and that turned out to possibly be a huge mistake. They all went to the same guy who is better than me, probably cheaper, and now they don't even ask me anymore. I already know the followup projects went to him as well. I'm not getting briefings for stuff that I already was booked for, and I'm starting to wonder if that work is going to him as well now and they just haven't told me yet. It's triggering imposter syndrome like mad in me, and the long term effects may be near catastrophic for me if he starts bringing in other people and taking over my clientbase piece by piece with an influx of new people that _all _are better than me, because I never specialized as much and "wasted" so much time on other hobbies like music.

Ironically the work that is left for me still, is stuff where _I_ was the new guy pitching in for someone who had to decline because of being overworked. And since from what I hear I'm about 30% more expensive, I might lose that soon too.

It's causing me a lot of anxiety at the moment and I regret not having taken those jobs, because at the time I wasn't doing 7 day work weeks yet, I could probably have pulled it off somehow. Now I'm paying the price for trying not to overwork myself, with other kinds of pain and financial losses... I'm very pessimistic about the future.


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> That's literally how I feel right now. I turned down 3 good jobs (not music related, but doesn't matter) a year ago and that turned out to possibly be a huge mistake. They all went to the same guy who is better than me, probably cheaper, and now they don't even ask me anymore.


I feel your pain, and understand why people make decisions to work silly hours. However, for me, I'm not going to be doing that. I had a health scare a few years back, where I worked 22.5 hour days for over six weeks straight, and then was ill for the next 3 months. My health is more important than any stupid job. However, it's not for me to say what is or isn't right for anyone else.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 1, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> That's literally how I feel right now. I turned down 3 good jobs (not music related, but doesn't matter) a year ago and that turned out to possibly be a huge mistake. They all went to the same guy who is better than me, probably cheaper, and now they don't even ask me anymore. I already know the followup projects went to him as well. I'm not getting briefings for stuff that I already was booked for, and I'm starting to wonder if that work is going to him as well now and they just haven't told me yet. It's triggering imposter syndrome like mad in me, and the long term effects may be near catastrophic for me if he starts bringing in other people and taking over my clientbase piece by piece with an influx of new people that _all _are better than me, because I never specialized as much and "wasted" so much time on other hobbies like music.
> 
> Ironically the work that is left for me still, is stuff where _I_ was the new guy pitching in for someone who had to decline because of being overworked. And since from what I hear I'm about 30% more expensive, I might lose that soon too.
> 
> It's causing me a lot of anxiety at the moment and I regret not having taken those jobs, because at the time I wasn't doing 7 day work weeks yet, I could probably have pulled it off somehow. Now I'm paying the price for trying not to overwork myself, with other kinds of pain and financial losses... I'm very pessimistic about the future.


Hope you will come through this okay mate.


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## MartinH. (Oct 1, 2020)

Daryl said:


> I feel your pain, and understand why people make decisions to work silly hours. However, for me, I'm not going to be doing that. I had a health scare a few years back, where I worked 22.5 hour days for over six weeks straight, and then was ill for the next 3 months. My health is more important than any stupid job. However, it's not for me to say what is or isn't right for anyone else.


Wow, that sounds life-threatening! I'm sure people died pulling stunts like that. I'm glad you lived to tell the tale, but please don't push your luck that hard again. I have never worked remotely as many hours, I'd break down physically and mentally long before. But I have to say, I'm a little envious of people that are _capable _of putting in crazy hours. I simply can't. If I knew I _could _do things like that, I'd be a lot more relaxed about whether or not I'm gonna meet my deadlines or not.




hbjdk said:


> Hope you will come through this okay mate.


Thanks mate, I appreciate it! I'm already feeling a lot better today because - as luck would have it - a new client called with a new job _today _and now there was that choice again between working too little and too much. I'm picking too much this time because the dread of not knowing whether all those deadlines will work out is easier to bear than the despair of thinking I'm on a downwards spiral towards unemployment. I don't think there is a sweetspot for me anymore where I'm feeling "fine", so I'll probably err on the side of more work than I want, because that seems easier to bear for me. 
And knowing murphy's law, I fully expect all those projects that have been on hold for anything between weeks and months, to all suddenly resume within the next weeks. That's just how these things go so often...


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