# NI will no longer activate discontinued products from May 31st (NOW FIXED]



## KallumS (Mar 9, 2020)

*<MODERATOR NOTE - This is a very long thread, so the update is that Matt from NI has posted that NI has heard the reaction and is now working on a solution to this. Two of his more recent posts are here and here.>

<UPDATE - This is now fixed, as Matt from NI explains in **this post**.>*

There are emails going out from NI notifying people that from 31st May some products can no longer be activated.

From the email: "Nach dem 31. Mai wird es nicht mehr möglich sein, einige ältere und mittlerweile eingestellte Produkte zu registrieren. Dazu gehören u.a. Guitar Rig Version 1-2, Battery 1 und 2 sowie Komplete 2-4.
Du kannst diese Produkte zwar weiterhin in deinen Projekten nutzen, die Erst- bzw. Neuinstallation ist nach dem Stichtag jedoch nicht mehr möglich."

Translates to: "After May 31, it will no longer be possible to register some older and discontinued products. These include Guitar Rig Version 1-2, Battery 1 and 2 and Komplete 2-4. You can still use these products in your projects, but the initial or new installation is no longer possible after the deadline."

Link: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... 4f94c998f3

Here is the list of discontinued products:


*PRODUCT**MANUFACTURER*Absynth 2 Native InstrumentsAbsynth 3Native InstrumentsAbsynth Sounds Volume 1Native InstrumentsAC-Box ComboNative InstrumentsAkoustik Piano (before 1.1.0)Native InstrumentsB4Native InstrumentsB4 IINative InstrumentsBandstandNative InstrumentsBatteryNative InstrumentsBattery 2Native InstrumentsBattery Studio DrumsNative InstrumentsElectronic Instruments 2 XTNative InstrumentsElektrik Piano (before 1.5)Native InstrumentsFM7Native InstrumentsGuitar CombosNative InstrumentsGuitar RigNative InstrumentsGuitar Rig 2Native InstrumentsIntaktNative InstrumentsKompaktNative InstrumentsKompakt Sony ACID ProNative InstrumentsKomplete 2Native InstrumentsKontakt 1.0Native InstrumentsKontakt 2Native InstrumentsNI EssentialsNative InstrumentsNI Spectral DelayNative InstrumentsPlex ComboNative InstrumentsPro-52Native InstrumentsPro-53Native InstrumentsReaktor 2.3Native InstrumentsReaktor 3Native InstrumentsReaktor 4Native InstrumentsReaktor 5 (before 5.1.5.0)Native InstrumentsReaktor Electronic Instruments Native InstrumentsReaktor Electronic Instruments 2Native InstrumentsReaktor SessionNative InstrumentsStudio CollectionNative InstrumentsTraktor 3Native InstrumentsTraktor DJNative InstrumentsTraktor DJ StudioNative InstrumentsTraktor DJ Studio 2Native InstrumentsTraktor DJ Studio 2.xNative InstrumentsTraktor FS 1.5Native InstrumentsTraktor FS 1.5Native InstrumentsTraktor FS 2Native InstrumentsTraktor HerculesNative InstrumentsTwang ComboNative InstrumentsVokatorNative InstrumentsBoesendorfer290East WestColossusEast WestEWQLSO Gold EdEast WestEWQLSO Gold Ed Pro XPEast WestEWQLSO Silver EdEast WestEWQLSOSilver Ed Pro XPEast WestHardcore BassEast WestHardcore Bass XPEast WestPercussive AdventuresEast WestPSP AdrenalineEast WestPSP Drumkit From Hell 2East WestPSP Percussive Adventures 2 LEEast WestPSP StormbreaksEast WestPSP VaporEast WestRaEast WestSO BrassEast WestSO Brass Pro XPEast WestSO PercussionEast WestSO Percussion Pro XPEast WestSO StringsEast WestSO Strings Pro XPEast WestSO WoodwindsEast WestSO Woodwinds Pro XPEast WestStormdrumEast WestStormdrum IntaktEast WestSymphonic ChoirsEast WestArtist DrumsBest ServiceArtist GroovesBest ServiceChris Hein HornsBest ServiceClassical CollectionBest ServiceCult SamplerBest ServiceEthno World 3 CompleteBest ServiceGalaxy SteinwayBest ServiceGalaxy Steinway 5.1Best ServiceLatin WorldBest ServiceOrient WorldBest ServiceString EssentialsBest ServiceAltered StatesZero-GAnalogue Sequencer LoopsZero-GBeats Working in CubaZero-GMorhologyZero-GNostalgiaZero-GOuter LimitsZero-GPSP Afrolatin SlamZero GPSP Koncept & FunctionZero-GPSP Nu JointzZero-GPSP Vol 7 The Operating TableZero-GPSP Wired - The Elements of TranceZero-GSounds of the 70sZero-GSounds of PolynesiaZero-GVocal ForgeZero-GCeltic InstrumentsBig Fish AudioFirst Call HornsBig Fish AudioLondon Solo StringsBig Fish AudioRaging GuitarsBig Fish AudioGarritan JazzGarritanGarritan Personal OrchestraGarritanVitual Grand PianoArt VistaCM SessionComputer MusicFuture LoopsFuture MusicVirtual Drumline 2Tap Space


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## dzilizzi (Mar 9, 2020)

So everyone who still has EW Kontakt libraries will SOL if they get a new computer. That sucks. Fortunately, for me, I don't have any of this stuff. But I do worry it will be a problem for some I own in the future.


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## José Herring (Mar 9, 2020)

Oh no, I still use VGP and EW Kontakt Version for percussion and harp and odd bits. Ah well. It had to happen sooner or later.


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## Robo Rivard (Mar 9, 2020)

Bye Bye EWQLSO Gold Pro XP. More room on the SSD.


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## Thundercat (Mar 9, 2020)

I think discontinuing access to download or update a product you paid for is ridiculous. I do own a couple of those - that’s part of supporting your customer.

I got so burned with cakewalk sonar. I bought every update, and at the end they offered a lifetime update package for $200.

I bit. They went under shortly thereafter. So it was a money grab, screw the customer. And although cakewalk for band camp is now free, the new version is stripped down of the features it used to have.

mad.


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## sin(x) (Mar 9, 2020)

Wow, people are serene.

How… did this have to happen "sooner or later"? How much resources can it possibly take to keep the existing mechanism in place that toggles the "this is a licensed copy" bit, when it already survived the move to Native Access?

I get that they can't expected to put development time into making 15 year old plugins run in modern environments. But in the case of old Kontakt libraries, I'm at a loss. Kontakt presumably won't ever stop loading unprotected instruments from the K1/K2 era (that'd be a RADICAL break of compatibility), and the fact that they seem to be hand-selecting which libraries they won't allow to be activated in the future suggests this isn't really about reducing maintenance overhead. Which suggests it's either about some expiration in their own licensing deals with third-party devs, or it's a tactical move to create artificial pressure on users to retire old stuff, at the price of breaking everyone's old project files.

The Kontakt versions of EW's old libs are all over my old projects, and still get used once in a while in newer ones. Reinstalls happen. If NI attempts to snipe my use of samples that I've rightfully purchased, I'll be fucking *angry*. How is that even legal?


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## jules (Mar 9, 2020)

I wonder what's stopping them to provide activations for old kontakt libraries... Really strange move.


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## Thundercat (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> If NI attempts to snipe my use of samples that I've rightfully purchased, I'll be fucking *angry*. How is that even legal?


Exactly.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 9, 2020)

If you are on a Mac, make a bit identical clone with Carbon Copy Cloner or Super Duper? I assume there is something simi for the PC?


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## Thundercat (Mar 9, 2020)

Maybe, it’s just possible they have a new version of Kontakt in the works that these libraries won’t be compatible with...dunno, just spit ballin’


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## Quasar (Mar 9, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> I think discontinuing access to download or update a product you paid for is ridiculous. I do own a couple of those - that’s part of supporting your customer.
> 
> I got so burned with cakewalk sonar. I bought every update, and at the end they offered a lifetime update package for $200.
> 
> ...



Because of the ubiquity of the Kontakt platform, Native Instruments long-ago gained a monopolistic foothold in the VI world that is unhealthy. Since "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" and all of that, it's only natural and inevitable that they will increasingly exploit this power in whatever way they perceive will maximize profit, regardless of how it might disrespect or violate the fundamental rights of the end-user. First Native Access and the sell-out of workstation privacy and now this...

This abuse will not be mitigated unless music composers, producers and engineers begin to take our usage rights seriously, vote with our wallets and BOYCOTT. This, alas, is most likely just another way of saying that the abuse will not be mitigated, because not enough people care. Collectively, we've become culturally desensitized to corporate capitalist oppression in general, and the draconian state of end-user software rights in particular.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 9, 2020)

I don't know how this is legal either.

Boycotts won't work imo. Legal threats might though?


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## MartinH. (Mar 9, 2020)

It's probably fairly easy to pirate things that they choose no longer to activate. Can anyone confirm?

Another manufacturer discontinued my favorite synth plugin many years ago, and they provided a version of it that no longer needs activation. I thought that's the right way to go about it. Maybe we could urge NI to do the same?



Guy Rowland said:


> Legal threats might though?



They probably covered there asses in the fineprint of the EULA we all signed. But I don't know if maybe the hassle of dealing with a lawsuit is enough of a deterrant?


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## easyrider (Mar 9, 2020)

I thought EastWest had its own player now ?

Did some old libraries use Kontakt?


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## rrichard63 (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> The Kontakt versions of EW's old libs are all over my old projects, and still get used once in a while in newer ones. Reinstalls happen. If NI attempts to snipe my use of samples that I've rightfully purchased, I'll be fucking *angry*.


Everyone in your situation needs to open all those old projects and render the affected tracks to audio. Personally, I would do so twice -- once with any insert effects processing that was used in the final mix, and again without any effects.

EDIT: But even this won't always be enough. See #29 below:


charlieclouser said:


> Literally today I am loading up a cue from 14 years ago and creating a new version ... And I need to make changes in ways that can't be done by manipulating bounced audio stems - I need to get inside the MIDI and move notes around.


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## wst3 (Mar 9, 2020)

echoing my comment elsewhere - 

Well that's a huge disappointment! I too question the legality, at least here in the US, but with a world stage comes complications. Not sure I'd have a leg to stand on.

I still use some of these "legacy" products, although getting them authorized has always been a royal PITA. 

Several of them are not easily replaced - Vokator and Spektral Delay, B4-II and Pro-53 come immediately to mind. All of these are already discontinued, and that's ok (not really, but nothing once can do about it!) 

The Big Fish Celtic and First Call Horns are not irreplaceable, but they are scattered all over older projects. I guess I need to see if they've been updated?

If they wish to discontinue support that's fine, but they should provide perpetual licenses, not shut them down completely.

And just when I thought they might be getting a clue...


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## Robo Rivard (Mar 9, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I thought EastWest had its own player now ?
> 
> Did some old libraries use Kontakt?


All their products were on Kontakt platform the first few years. I never saw the point of moving to Play player.


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## Quasar (Mar 9, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> I don't know how this is legal either.
> 
> Boycotts won't work imo. Legal threats might though?


Class action lawsuit?

I wouldn't know, but wouldn't be surprised if they have a team of attorneys (or _barristers_, as you so charmingly say across the pond) who have already determined that it is. As most everyone knows, in the developed Western world laws are very often bought and paid for by capital interests for dealing with exactly these sorts of circumstances.

On the other hand, a legal challenge and its attendant negative publicity could conceivably cause them to reassess their decision making to some degree. Anything is possible.

And BTW, I quite agree that a boycott isn't _doable_. I only said that it's _necessary_, which is not at all the same thing.


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## José Herring (Mar 9, 2020)

I am angry. Maybe I just got apathetic. But, the truth is I wake up every day thinking about how I can avoid situations like this. I have no interest in getting another Play library. I use HS and HB and that is as far as I'm willing atm. That is why I never upgraded my EWQLSO Gold and GoldXP. I still use them in the old Kontkat form. 

I hate being dependent on the whim of some company that only has their bottom line in mind. My hope would be that these companies just unlock the older libraries but that isn't going to happen.

So my initial reaction of "it was bound to happen sooner or later" is just that. It's already happened with so many products that I can't even count. Makes investing in expensive VI's totally not worth it.


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## José Herring (Mar 9, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I thought EastWest had its own player now ?
> 
> Did some old libraries use Kontakt?


Yeah, back in the old old days before Play like 10 years ago. I think that is a century in VI years.


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## chrisr (Mar 9, 2020)

I will go absolutely f-ing bananas if I can't keep on using my EWQLSO in kontakt. I've tailored the patches and some of them are very, very well used.


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## sostenuto (Mar 9, 2020)

Hope this means they will remove Reaktor 5 from Native Access ' Not installed ' !!! 
Have erroneously hit Install multiple times ... 1.32 GB Aarrgghh !


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## sin(x) (Mar 9, 2020)

Quasar said:


> I wouldn't know, but wouldn't be surprised if they have a team of attorneys (or _barristers_, as you so charmingly say across the pond) who have already determined that it is. As most everyone knows, in the developed Western world laws are very often bought and paid for by capital interests for dealing with exactly these sorts of circumstances.



I'm not so sure. EU consumer laws can have teeth. A company with a de-facto monopoly abusing their own copy protection scheme to remotely disable (yeah yeah, "not re-enable", same difference) people's properly licensed and paid-for content? Doesn't sound legal to me. That said, obviously, IANAL.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 9, 2020)

Given that they are doing this on such a wide scale, my guess is that they are building new copy protection into all current products and plan to upgrade entirely the license management...and didn't want to spend time and resources updating those old products (fair enough)...nor maintain two separate licensing systems for the old and the new. 

I tend to agree with some they could have somehow enabled some offline installation method that could last as long as the OS can support running the software. 

B4 is finally going away...


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## tmhuud (Mar 9, 2020)

I’m pissed.


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## averystemmler (Mar 9, 2020)

I see folks advocating a Steam-like platform for the sale, distribution, and licensing of expensive professional products, but this is my fear. DRM that has to be actively maintained by the developer or publisher will eventually stop being maintained.

I don't own any of these products, but now that NI has taken this first step, I'll take it into consideration before purchasing Kontakt Player libraries going forward.


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## MartinH. (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> I'm not so sure. EU consumer laws can have teeth.



Germany's local laws might be even one level more consumer-friendly I suspect. You could start by asking NI directly whether they will provide alternative installers that don't need activation, or whether we should see if Bundeskartellamt or Verbraucherzentrale could "convince" them.




averystemmler said:


> I see folks advocating a Steam-like platform for the sale, distribution, and licensing of expensive professional products, but this is my fear. DRM that has to be actively maintained by the developer or publisher will eventually stop being maintained.



The only advantage with such a system is if it goes down, only one thing needs to be cracked to free all the things instead of dozens of different copyright schemes.

I expect that sooner or later every single company will either go under or decide to no longer activate their old DRM'ed products so my trust in "Kontakt being crackable if need be" was part of why I was willing to invest so much money into the Kontakt eco system in the first place.


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## Quasar (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> I'm not so sure. EU consumer laws can have teeth. A company with a de-facto monopoly abusing their own copy protection scheme to remotely disable (yeah yeah, "not re-enable", same difference) people's properly licensed and paid-for content? Doesn't sound legal to me. That said, obviously, IANAL.


You could well be right. I'm in the US, where consumer protection laws are pretty much toothless, reduced to slurping liquefied, pureed tomatoes through a straw...


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## charlieclouser (Mar 9, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Yeah, back in the old old days before Play like 10 years ago. I think that is a century in VI years.



Yeah, but it's not a century in movie franchise years.

Literally today I am loading up a cue from 14 years ago and creating a new version for the ninth installment in the SAW horror movie franchise. Oh, it's nothing important, just the final main theme that everyone knows and counts on hearing at the big scene at the end of the film. These movies MUST end with the exact piece of music from the first film, changed to fit this year's version, but still sounding EXACTLY the same from a sonic standpoint. Same Malmsjo piano, same strident Kirk Hunter chamber strings, same icy high notes from EWQLSO violins sul pont trems. 

And I need to make changes in ways that can't be done by manipulating bounced audio stems - I need to get inside the MIDI and move notes around.

Guess which strings are part of the huge stack? Yup. EWQLSO. 

(Converted to EXS 15 years ago, of course.)

THIS is why I'm so keen on only relying upon EXS and raw WAV files, which could be mapped into new instruments on whatever platform comes next, worst comes to worst. I know this isn't everyone's situation, but this scenario also applied when I was working on productions with a long life, like tv series that ran for 7 seasons. We'd frequently load up cues from season one, move notes around, and make a new version using the recognizable and characteristic sounds from the first version. Always MIDI, never audio.

This sort of feels like them admitting that their sounds are disposable and temporary, and just don't really matter. And for most people, this might be true - but not for me.

I knew this day was coming.


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## MartinH. (Mar 9, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> (Converted to EXS 15 years ago, of course.)





charlieclouser said:


> I knew this day was coming.



Kudos to you and I'm so glad to hear you're prepared for this!


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## José Herring (Mar 9, 2020)

@charlieclouser 
I may convert them too. I still like some of the string patches on EWQLSO as well. I did a movie a while back called "The Ghost Maker" and the director wanted a really huge sound for the strings in the final scene, bigger than the rest of the movie. Back then the only library I had that could handle the sound he wanted was EWQLSO orchestra. That library just has that big boomy sound that still isn't easily duplicated by other libraries. Old school horror sound like Re-animator and Hellraiser type sound. 

I look into to converting some choice patches that I still use.


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> If NI attempts to snipe my use of samples that I've rightfully purchased, I'll be fucking *angry*. How is that even legal?


I'm pretty sure what you purchased is a (soon to be worthless) license. You don't own any samples or software from NI.

It's no different to IoT hardware manufactures bricking devices that rely on their private servers.


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## averystemmler (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I'm pretty sure what you purchased is a (soon to be worthless) license. You don't own any samples or software from NI.



To be fair, grammatically, he said he rightfully purchased the "use of samples", which is what a license is.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> and the fact that they seem to be hand-selecting which libraries they won't allow to be activated in the future suggests this isn't really about reducing maintenance overhead.



It's not exactly hand selection, from what it seems only the Kompakt/Intakt stuff and all NI plugins which used the earliest RAS1 authorization scheme (or the old "authorization tool", if anyone here remembers that) is being faded out. Not sure about why, though. However, IIRC Service Center itself was never a 64-bit application on Mac, and with Catalina axing all 32-bit apps... that might've been the push here.

For EastWest it's too late, they have their own player and they discontinued any support for their Kontakt libraries, so that is indeed shit, I agree with you lot on that one. For other stuff (Best Service, Zero-G etc.), instead of going for a class action lawsuit at NI, contact the developers of 3rd party libraries and voice your concerns about this. All they would need to do is strike a deal for a reencode of the libraries so that they work in current versions of Kontakt. Maybe NI could meet them halfway here and offer a free reencode. I don't know, I will try to snoop around about this.

I still use Pro-53, and I will find ways to keep on using it as long as Windows allows it to be installed.


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## sin(x) (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I'm pretty sure what you purchased is a (soon to be worthless) license. You don't own any samples or software from NI.



Sure, I'm aware of the EULA sophistry. But even then I bought a perpetual license. I could see there being little legal recourse if the case was NI going belly up, but if they're running full steam ahead and purposely denying their customers to make use of their licensed content as per agreement? Smells like failure to perform to me.


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## oboemaroni (Mar 9, 2020)

Does anyone have experience with running petitions for this kind of thing? I think demonstrating the strength of feeling can get results without having to take legal action. Just getting them to release non copy protected versions would be fine by me, I still use spektral delay all the time...


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> if they're running full steam ahead and purposely denying their customers to make use of their licensed content as per agreement? Smells like failure to perform to me.


It's a very nasty practice to be sure. Check what the EULA says, it probably has a clause to cover them being able to do this, or a catch all "we can change the agreement at any time" type clause.


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## sin(x) (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> It's not exactly hand selection, from what it seems only the Kompakt/Intakt stuff and all NI plugins which used the earliest RAS1 authorization scheme (or the old "authorization tool", if anyone here remembers that) is being faded out. Not sure about why, though. However, IIRC Service Center itself was never a 64-bit application on Mac, and with Catalina axing all 32-bit apps... that might've been the push here.



But I can authorize those libraries via 64-bit Native Access right now, can't I?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

No, you cannot authorize those very old Kompakt/Intakt/Kore Soundpack stuff with NA, IIRC. Not sure, honestly. Did you try?


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## sin(x) (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> No, you cannot authorize those very old Kompakt/Intakt/Kore Soundpack stuff with NA, IIRC.



You positive on that? I know I've installed and activated my Kontakt version of EWQLSO a year ago on a new Win10 laptop, and I could swear I haven't used anything but NA for everything Kontakt-related.


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## SergeD (Mar 9, 2020)

I also have the old EWQL version which has been well paid hundreds of dollars. I checked in the booklet, on the bill, and nowhere I read that the product will be valid for 10 or 20 years before been put on garbage, even if NI is not on bankrupt.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> You positive on that? I know I've installed and activated my Kontakt version of EWQLSO a year ago on a new Win10 laptop, and I could swear I haven't used anything but NA for everything Kontakt-related.



Gotcha. I don't know, I am not 100% on that. I know for sure that Kore Soundpacks won't authorize in NA.


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## sin(x) (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> It's a very nasty practice to be sure. Check what the EULA says, it probably has a clause to cover them being able to do this, or a catch all "we can change the agreement at any time" type clause.



Oh, no doubt. The EULA probably also gives them possession of my firstborn son. But overreaching EULA terms are destroyed by courts all the time.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

BTW EULA here:






End user license agreement







www.native-instruments.com


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## charlieclouser (Mar 9, 2020)

Yeah, converting from Kontakt libraries to EXS or any other format is.... a task that's monumental at best, impossible at worst.

But for the fifteen or so samples that make up a simple instrument like EWQLSO's violins sul pont trems or something like that, it might be worth the hassle to just record a few notes, trim them, and stick 'em in a different sampler. 

It's very different to creating a new commercial sample library product using the content from a Kontakt library - but Big Fish and a dozen other websites are absolutely FULL of "epic cinematic orchestral" phrase libraries that were absolutely created using other sample libraries as opposed to live orchestral recordings. They are so easy to spot, even from the demo audio tracks that play right on the website!


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## rrichard63 (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> BTW EULA here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. In the EULA I find this provision:

"3.2 Native Instruments grants Licensee the non-exclusive right without restrictions in time or place to use the Products."

Today's end of life announcement certainly sounds like a "restriction in time" to me. But IANAL.

And also this (emphasis added):

"3.5 Licensee is not authorized to modify the software, *unless it is to preserve or restore the agreed functions of the software* purchased."

That tells me that beginning June 1, cracking these libraries to make them run without authorization will be perfectly legal. But, again, IANAL.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

Except you don't really crack the libraries at all. You crack Kontakt itself then it opens all encoded libraries without authorization check.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Except you don't really crack the libraries at all. You crack Kontakt itself then it opens all encoded libraries without authorization check.


I'm sure you are right. So "cracking" a library means un-encoding it, such that Kontakt thinks it is just one of the thousands of libraries that don't require authorization.

That said, I don't know which is harder to do -- cracking Kontakt itself or figuring out how to un-encode libraries.


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## Wunderhorn (Mar 9, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> "3.2 Native Instruments grants Licensee the non-exclusive right without restrictions in time or place to use the Products."



vs.

_After May 31, it will no longer be possible to register some older and discontinued products._


... looks like they are in breach of their own contract.

This to me is one heck of a reason to dislike all these online activation centers and oh so wonderfully convenient downloader apps with or without built in spy-ware.

*Shitty move, Native Instruments!*


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

Yes but... section 1.1

_software including related media, documentation (for example program descriptions, manuals) and other documents and materials manufactured by Native Instruments ("Product(s)"). _


When something is discontinued it is not "manufactured" anymore, or supported. So it's not necessarily a breach of contract there. But, IANAL!


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> When something is discontinued it is not "manufactured" anymore,


The problem I have is that to "manufacture" software you just need to press CTRL+C then CTRL+V.
If NI find it too much trouble I'll gladly distribute the software for them. 

When the cull occurs on the 31st will existing installations stop working? Will users be unable to install the software on a new machine?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

Existing installations keep working (because they have been activated), however you won't be able to authorize on a new machine.


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

So why not just liberate the software so those who already have licenses can continue to use it? Since NI won't be making any more money from it anyway.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

Good question, that would require development time to go back to all discontinued products and recompile them to work without a license (and who knows if they even have all the source codes for all that ancient stuff). Not happening, discontinued means discontinued. This is more about authorization server being shut down, it seems.

As for Kompakt/Intakt stuff, again, this should be possible to reencode, so this should be motioned to the involved 3rd parties (Best Service, Big Fish Audio, Zero-G...)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Existing installations keep working (because they have been activated), however you won't be able to authorize on a new machine.



So is Jay right that you can clone the startup drive with the installations? I don't know how hard that is to do with Windows, but on Macs you can just start up from a bootable clone and go back to work.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So is Jay right that you can clone the startup drive with the installations? I don't know how hard that is to do with Windows, but on Macs you can just start up from a bootable clone and go back to work.



That will work on a single machine but not when you buy a new one and use the clone there, because that new machine has a different hardware ID, and this is used to generate activation keys.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2020)

As an aside, the reactions here - LET'S HIRE A STANDING ARMY AND GO TO WAR WITH THEM! - lead me to one conclusion: if you're a company that sells software (yes, software licenses) and you want people to keep buying stuff from you, this may not be so advisable.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> NI won't be making any more money from it anyway


But if, for example, B4 II were widely available, that might cut into sales of NI's current product, Vintage Organs. (As far as I know, NI doesn't currently have a replacement for Pro-53.)


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> that might cut into sales of NI's current product, Vintage Organs.


Good


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## jcrosby (Mar 9, 2020)

This is ridiculous. Obviously people should at least make an effort to contact support. Even if fruitless aint no shame in trying...

For people working with old projects that need to be accessed at a later date I'd suggest buying a spare drive and making bootable clone of your current system. Keeping your current machine around for legacy compatibility seems like a wise move if/when replaced as well....

All that said, unfortunately I'm not surprised. As others pointed out, this is whats concerned me about all of these online authorization schemes... The ability to Unnecessarily EOL stuff you rely on. Keeping up with all of these f-ing compatibility hoops is getting exhausting!


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 9, 2020)

I’m sure NI have good reasons for this, aside from super villainy.

However, it’s stuff like this that has always made me shy away from hardware/software integrations like Komplete Kontrol: The product works only as long as the company has a business case for supporting it.

Spitfire and OT’s gradual walk away from Kontakt looks a little more canny tonight.


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Spitfire and OT’s gradual walk away from Kontakt looks a little more canny tonight.


Do they both require online server/client activation too? If they do I think we'll see a repeat of this thread in 10 years or so.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Do they both require online server/client activation too? If they do I think we'll see a repeat of this thread in 10 years or so.


Sure do, but I was thinking more from their perspective. Copy protection is always going to be a fact of life for us composers, one way or another.


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Copy protection is always going to be a fact of life for us composers, one way or another.


Unfortunately this is true for most of us (not me). But it doesn't have to be that way, it's an artificial restriction by developers. Copies don't need protecting, but users need restricting


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## Sapphire (Mar 9, 2020)

I thought for a short time after I had built my new system I used the libs from the old drive without even installing NA on my new one.
But I guess I must've got some memories mixed up .


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## SirkusPi (Mar 9, 2020)

Shameful. As others have said, ceasing development of old products is fine, but halting authorizations of paid-for products shocks the conscience. I confess that I’m too enmeshed in Kontakt to stop using it for 3rd party instruments, but I will certainly not buy any other NI products (including NI’s own Kontakt instruments) going forward.


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## ReelToLogic (Mar 9, 2020)

So if I buy a new PC after May 31st, I won't be able to install my Chris Hein Horns Compact library, which doesn't seem that old and I use a lot? 

Since that would be quite disappointing, I wonder if Chris Hein or other developers would consider making a new download of the library for registered owners that did not require registration with Native Access. That doesn't seem like it would be very hard to do and I don't see why Native Instruments would even need to be involved. It would certainly be a nice thing for a developer to do for their customers. I'd even pay a small "upgrade fee" rather than lose the entire library.

I can see how EW would likely not do that since they have their own player now, but Chris Hein Horns is another story. 

Chris Hein - what do you think? 

_The above are MY words. The blank quote below is just so that Chris will get notified of this message...and hopefully respond..._


Chris Hein said:


> .


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## MartinH. (Mar 9, 2020)

These old libs all only need old kontakt versions, right? Would it be feasible to install e.g. a cracked Kontakt 4 for the these soon to be unactivatable libraries, and stay with regular Kontakt 5 and 6 for the still activatable ones? 

Going forward, do we seriously need to make sure a lib/player was cracked, _before _we're going to buy it, just to have a chance of still using the samples 20 years later? I mean mac users probably are gonna be out of Luck there anyway due to lack of compatibility, but I could still use 20 year old software on my PC with no problems.


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

ReelToLogic said:


> _The above are MY words. The blank quote below is just so that Chris will get notified of this message...and hopefully respond..._


Just for your info, you can summon people by tagging them using the @ symbol. For example @ReelToLogic


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## EgM (Mar 9, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> These old libs all only need old kontakt versions, right? Would it be feasible to install e.g. a cracked Kontakt 4 for the these soon to be unactivatable libraries, and stay with regular Kontakt 5 and 6 for the still activatable ones?
> 
> Going forward, do we seriously need to make sure a lib/player was cracked, _before _we're going to buy it, just to have a chance of still using the samples 20 years later? I mean mac users probably are gonna be out of Luck there anyway due to lack of compatibility, but I could still use 20 year old software on my PC with no problems.



Sadly, for me at least, 20 years in the sampling world is nothing—I don't see aging in samples. Hell, I'd still use Edirol HQOR for quick sketches if it were 64bit and its vst recalled parameters 

So yeah, it's sad that we have to actually wonder if something is cracked just to assure us it'll live long.


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## constaneum (Mar 9, 2020)

jules said:


> I wonder what's stopping them to provide activations for old kontakt libraries... Really strange move.



forcing you to buy new products.


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## Dominik Raab (Mar 9, 2020)

constaneum said:


> forcing you to buy new products.



I don’t know. With older Komplete stuff, I totally get that—but EW is included. EW doesn’t sell newer products for Kontakt. If there were some sort of new EW Kontakt version, that’d be quite obvious, but I doubt they’re thinking: “If we no longer allow them to activate Symphonic Orchestra Strings, they’ll definitely buy NI Action Strings!” That’s a bit of a stretch.

Germany has a history of horrible business consulting; there’s a famous case of a consulting firm “enhancing” our employment agency and messing up spectacularly. Didn’t NI lay off quite a lot of people? Maybe they got themselves a consulting firm, and their accounting person went, LOOK I FOUND SOMETHING WE CAN DO TO SAVE MONEY, without any sort of knowledge about what the hell sample libraries are.

Speculation, sure, but I could see it happening…


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## Sapphire (Mar 9, 2020)

Dominik Raab said:


> Germany has a history of horrible business consulting;



Where does that information come from?


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## Dex (Mar 9, 2020)

Dafuq? Why? How hard could it possibly be to keep the activation code for these products active?

It's bullshit that 20 years from now none of your current VIs will be usable _even if the companies that made them are still around._


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## Wally Garten (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> It's a very nasty practice to be sure. Check what the EULA says, it probably has a clause to cover them being able to do this, or a catch all "we can change the agreement at any time" type clause.



That in itself would probably be an unenforceable clause, at least under US law, since it would render the contract "illusory" if one party could arbitrarily change the terms.


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## tmhuud (Mar 9, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, converting from Kontakt libraries to EXS or any other format is.... a task that's monumental at best, impossible at worst.


I’m with you there. But I don’t regret a moment spent doing a lot of those conversions. I worked on a show that I had no idea would go on and on and on. They kept saying we love that theme now do a slight variation for the second anthology, third, etc. It was always to my delight that 90% of it was EXS24. Low on resources, and ALWAYS there for me.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 9, 2020)

How hard would it be for NI to release a version of Kontakt 2 Player with the authorization checks bypassed? It wouldn't open libraries developed for later versions of Kontakt. It also wouldn't allow you to develop or modify libraries. But it would play any library, encoded or not, from the K2 era.

An alternative, involving somewhat more work, would be a Kontakt 4 Player that bypasses authorization of K2 (and maybe K3) libraries, but checks K4 libraries.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 9, 2020)

tmhuud said:


> I’m with you there. But I don’t regret a moment spent doing a lot of those conversions. I worked on a show that I had no idea would go on and on and on. They kept saying we love that theme now do a slight variation for the second anthology, third, etc. It was always to my delight that 90% of it was EXS24. Low on resources, and ALWAYS there for me.


One of the (many) things I love about Logic. It ships with VI's and plugins that are 2 decades old, but still updated to work on the newest systems. It's easy to believe that ESX24 will be working forever, even if it gets a rename and GUI makeover.

God, I love that weird green thing.


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## Uiroo (Mar 9, 2020)

Dominik Raab said:


> Germany has a history of horrible business consulting


Well, I think you can say that about every country. 

I'll think twice about buying something from NI again.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> That will work on a single machine but not when you buy a new one and use the clone there, because that new machine has a different hardware ID, and this is used to generate activation keys.




But I _think_ that if it is bit identical, it doesn't ask you to re-activate it.


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## Thundercat (Mar 9, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I hate being dependent on the whim of some company that only has their bottom line in mind. My hope would be that these companies just unlock the older libraries but that isn't going to happen.


In a similar vein, I bought an Akai Advance mk61 keyboard with special "VIP" software that houses ALL your plugs - kind of a rogue version of what NI does in their NKS keyboards. It's way cool!

But.

They haven't updated it for Catalina. Now it's been 8 months, and people all over the forum are mad because they are STILL SELLING IT as compatible with Mac OS 10.x +, yet it isn't.

And no response from the company, even though there have been many complaints and the company had previously posted. This is on the official Akaipro website by the way.

So yeah, it starts to feel like every person for themselves. Way. Not. Cool.


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## Technostica (Mar 9, 2020)

If they bothered to explain why they are doing this I could at least cut them some slack. 
But doing it with no explanation shows how contemptuous they are of their users. 

Unfortunately this attitude is common these days. 
With companies who have products that are currently Irreplaceable how do we rebel?


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## emasters (Mar 9, 2020)

Really dislike the way NI treats it's customers. I can understand that support/new features for older products must stop at some point, given the economics of development/testing. But stopping activations for products already purchased, is awful. It's hard to image purchasing a product and later being told by the vendor, you no longer have the ability to re-activate. Shame on you NI -- is it any wonder why NI had to lay-off employees last year....


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## Thundercat (Mar 9, 2020)

Well why don't we, every single one of us here on this forum, go to the NI website and send a complaint? Sometimes a vocal few can make a difference...I'm heading there right now.


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## Thundercat (Mar 9, 2020)

I just went and lodged a complaint. I did it through their "account and license help" button, which you can find on this page: https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/categories/360000053657-Account-Order-Help

You have to have a serial number of a product to input. In my case it's Galaxy Steinway. LOVE that piano!

So tell 'em. Stop reading right now, click the link, and let them know this is utterly unacceptable.


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## Michel Simons (Mar 9, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> But I _think_ that if it is bit identical, it doesn't ask you to re-activate it.



I believe that the hardware ID is dependent on the actual hardware in your machine. So a different machine means a different hardware ID irrespective of the bit identical clone of your drive.


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## robgb (Mar 9, 2020)

Wow. So, do we get a refund for all those products?


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## SupremeFist (Mar 9, 2020)

Is it still possible to upgrade EWQLSO to the Play edition and keep using it that way?


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## Stringtree (Mar 9, 2020)

Artificial obsolescence. Feels like Gigastudio all over again, in a way.

I don’t think any of the noises coming from that company have been positive. 

Look at that long list of expensive soon-to-be shit.

Let’s give that belly-up thread some lovin’.


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## jcrosby (Mar 9, 2020)

constaneum said:


> forcing you to buy new products.


It's basic cost management. That *doesn't* make it ok, (I'm not defending this, exact opposite actually...), but it is the _*lens*_ through which companies driven by the demands of a _board _of s_takeholders _make choices. Ironically it's not even like thestakeholders would insist on this particular decision, it's just that the most obvious, (and dumbest) short term way to cut costs typically involve either cutting a customer's accessibility, support, or layoffs...


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> But I _think_ that if it is bit identical, it doesn't ask you to re-activate it.



Nope. On a new machine hardware ID cannot be bit identical, so your cloned drive with activations from old machine simply won't work, stuff will be unauthorized.


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## ohernie (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Nope. On a new machine hardware ID cannot be bit identical, so your cloned drive with activations from old machine simply won't work, stuff will be unauthorized.



Can I assume NI is stricter than Microsoft? I've transferred system drives between identical model laptops and all-in-ones without a problem.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

this is for lack of a more pleasant term, horse shit. 

who has 2 thumbs and will probably never own kontakt 6?


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## averystemmler (Mar 10, 2020)

poetd said:


> Wasn't ewqlso discontinued over 10 years ago now? More?
> 
> Not many software manufacturers supporting products over 10 years old, I think this thread is a little harsh.
> I get people being upset, but I don't see NI doing anything massively wrong here imo.



Support is one thing - I'd totally understand them not wanting to put any support or development resources into these old products. And as such, there may come a time when they stop being compatible with modern systems, and we have to move on. That's completely reasonable.

When it comes to DRM however - and I will beat this drum until I'm blue in the face - the ethical onus is on the party implementing the DRM to ensure that it doesn't compromise the product. If they can't afford to support their activation system or provide some alternative to ensure that customers can use the products they paid for, then they are not fulfilling their side of the bargain. It's a betrayal of the trust the customer puts in a company when buying a virtual product.


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## tomosane (Mar 10, 2020)

Man, I have no horse in this race, but if the Kontakt libraries I've paid thousands of €s for somehow became unavailable to me for reasons other than oversights on my part (like not making backups of libraries that aren't likely to be downloadable from the dev's site forever), I wouldn't even hesitate about pirating them. If the protection is on Kontakt's side and this would mean pirating Kontakt itself, so be it. And if this means nontrivial issues with Native Access and hence pirating all NI software going forward then well... so be it


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## chopin4525 (Mar 10, 2020)

Galaxy SteinwayBest ServiceGalaxy Steinway 5.1Best Service

Are you serious? Where is my replacement for the 5.1 Steinway? Why it will be discontinued? I see it has been dropped even from the galaxy instruments site... Very disappointing!
Edit...Best service still has them as part of the Galaxy 2 package, maybe they will continue support for that? What a mess!


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## SupremeFist (Mar 10, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> Support is one thing - I'd totally understand them not wanting to put any support or development resources into these old products. And as such, there may come a time when they stop being compatible with modern systems, and we have to move on. That's completely reasonable.
> 
> When it comes to DRM however - and I will beat this drum until I'm blue in the face - the ethical onus is on the party implementing the DRM to ensure that it doesn't compromise the product. If they can't afford to support their activation system or provide some alternative to ensure that customers can use the products they paid for, then they are not fulfilling their side of the bargain. It's a betrayal of the trust the customer puts in a company when buying a virtual product.





poetd said:


> Wasn't ewqlso discontinued over 10 years ago now? More?
> 
> Not many software manufacturers supporting products over 10 years old, I think this thread is a little harsh.
> I get people being upset, but I don't see NI doing anything massively wrong here imo.


Yeah but this is not just "no longer supporting" a product, it's essentially bricking it once a user (inevitably) changes machines.


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## IFM (Mar 10, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> I believe that the hardware ID is dependent on the actual hardware in your machine. So a different machine means a different hardware ID irrespective of the bit identical clone of your drive.


This is correct and why I'm not happy about this. I have a ton of older pieces that use the Kontakt EWQLSO...It's going to be a PITA to move them over to Play 3 but not much choice there. 

And yes a clone won't help as NI knows what drive you are booting from.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 10, 2020)

I think we should all remember that DRM, Native Access and the rest isn't actually inherently bad or evil. It's necessary because of piracy, the need to protect IP and the audio recordings contained in the product. One might not like the _method_ of DRM, but it's a requirement nonetheless if we're to have new toys.

That said, DRM is all well and good for box fresh products. This particular NI kerfuffle highlights the thorny problems of DRM when a product reaches it's end of life.



poetd said:


> Wasn't ewqlso discontinued over 10 years ago now? More?
> 
> Not many software manufacturers supporting products over 10 years old, I think this thread is a little harsh.
> I get people being upset, but I don't see NI doing anything massively wrong here imo.



I feel you might be torpedoed for saying that in this particular thread, but you have a point. 

What people are upset about is that NI have removed the *choice.*

For example, if I want to buy a new computer or upgrade to the newest whizz bang OS, I can look at the older plugins and libraries I have and weigh up the pros and cons of losing the use of them. It's an unhappy choice to make, but at least it's *mine to make.*

However, if I need to re-install my OS to fix an issue or my computer flat out breaks, I'd have no way of clearing the DRM for my older NI products. NI would have taken the choice from me.

That's what rubs everyone up the wrong way.


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## d.healey (Mar 10, 2020)

DRM is not necessary. I've been making a happy living selling non-DRM software for over a decade. Piracy is a term designed to make people think sharing and cooperation (both socially good things) are bad. 

DRM only benefits developers.


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## YaniDee (Mar 10, 2020)

No mention of this on the affected products pages at bestservice.com..they are still selling the libraries as if nothing happened. And they provide activation instructions..Buyer beware!

*Product Activation:*
This product requires Native Access for installation, registration and activation. Start the Native Access-Software and log in using your Native Instruments credetials to start the setup.
To sucesfully activate your product Native Access requires a working internet connection.
An* Offline Activation* on a different computer is *Not Available* with this product.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 10, 2020)

d.healey said:


> DRM is not necessary. I've been making a happy living selling non-DRM software for over a decade. Piracy is a term designed to make people think sharing and cooperation (both socially good things) are bad.
> 
> DRM only benefits developers.


Sure, me too. I make a living selling DRM free audio files.

But with respect, we're not NI, Spitfire, OT or any of the other folk with large audiences, high profiles, staff counts, shareholders and frightening development costs to re-coup. Different ball game.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

Chris Hein horns was just on sale 3 months ago, how is that an end-of-life product?

I'm pretty sure I bought that Library maybe two years ago? There was no disclaimer saying hey Native Instruments gets to royally f*** you out of the money you spent for no reason in a year or two

I can't imagine the kind of emails that poor Chris Hein is going to have to wake up to, and I'm lucky I didn't sell my horns compact because I'd be getting angry PMS right now for selling them a product they would suddenly be discontinued for no reason


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## lux (Mar 10, 2020)

EWQLSO should be taken out, period.

Reading the list reminds me of how old I am, as I saw the birth of all listed products. Almost all have been replaced by newer versions. EWQLSO is a different story. It's been revamped using a different engine, with different authorization processes, different GUI and, if you changed something in the library, like applying scripts or custom modifications, you just loose everything.

I think NI shoud revise the list just taking out EWQLSO. Not overly complicated.


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## d.healey (Mar 10, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> But with respect, we're not NI, Spitfire, OT or any of the other folk with large audiences, high profiles, staff counts, shareholders and frightening development costs to re-coup. Different ball game.


I don't buy from companies that don't respect my natural rights. If they can't sustain their business without restricting their users they're not for me.


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## MartinH. (Mar 10, 2020)

d.healey said:


> DRM is not necessary. I've been making a happy living selling non-DRM software for over a decade. Piracy is a term designed to make people think sharing and cooperation (both socially good things) are bad.
> 
> DRM only benefits developers.



I 100% agree and when I saw the title of Mike's thread about switching to Hise I was hopeful that it would be a move motivated by this NI DRM threat. But when I read the copy protection part of his post I was disappointed.

@Mike Greene: I'm cross quoting you from your other thread because I don't want to derail that one: 



Mike Greene said:


> 3. Copy protection is a big motivation for me. I assume iLok is not an option, but can I write my own CP scripts? My theory is that my copy protection, as long as it is unique to Realitone, doesn't necessarily have to be very strong, since there's not as much motivation to crack a single company's CP.* Kontak - big motivation. Realitone ... yawn.*



When I was still a student I had one course for which I had to do some research and write about a topic of my choice and I picked piracy, researched online and read a book called "no copy" about the topic. That last sentence of yours makes me think that you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how the piracy "scene" works. It's a very big and multilayered mess, but the small group of people at the core that do the actual heavy lifting of cracking copyprotection don't actually try to cause "the most damage", for them this is a competitive sport. They keep literal scoreboards on their "releases", it's a race. To get the point on the scoreboard you need to be the first. I don't know how hard Kontakt is to crack, so maybe there is an element of "prestige" for the group that cracks a new version of it, but if you start releasing individual Realitone products that can each be cracked on their own, then that'd be a lot of easy "points" to get from cracking and releasing your stuff. But here's the thing, since it's the "cracking scene", they don't even have any interest in things that don't have DRM. Stuff without DRM still gets pirated, but it doesn't automatically get fed into their well organized distribution network. 

Check these quotes on Wikipedia: 









Warez scene - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







> Keep in mind we do all this, because we can and because we like the
> thrilling excitement of winning over the other competing groups. We
> absolutely don't do all these releases, to please the general user that
> rather want to spend their cash on updating to the latest hardware, and
> ...





> We do this just for FUN. We are against any profit or commercialisation
> of piracy. We do not spread any release, others do that.
> In fact, we BUY all our own games with our own hard earned and worked for
> efforts. Which is from our own real life non-scene jobs.
> ...




When you have copy protection, the only reason it wouldn't get cracked is that it's so hard that even people of the highest skill and willing to invest hundreds of hours of unpaid work just to get "bragging rights" give up and think it's not worth it, because they could be cracking 5 other things in the time it takes to crack that one really hard one. There's probably also a big factor of how much "fun" it is to crack something. If it's e.g. something that was cracked before, just in a new iteration and they already know it's gonna be a pain in the ass and not fun, like iLok apparently, then they might not even try. If you're doing "your own thing", then they'd probably be curious to see what it's about and how hard and/or fun its gonna be. And since you think realitone is a boring target compared to the big players and already publicly said that you don't need it to be very strong... to me that sounds like an easy point to score for a cracking group.

There are other layers of the piracy scene that don't share the perspective of the cracking groups at the core, that only try to spread the stuff in a way they can monetise. Be that through ads or referral links to paid one-click hosters, or cryptominers or whatever it is these days that works best to make money. They have systems set up to (probably automatically) grab all the "releases" of the cracking groups and spread it in a way they can monetize. If you have DRM and get cracked, your stuff lands there automatically. If you don't have DRM, someone would have to go out of their way to buy your library and then share it. Sometimes this will happen in smaller scale on forums where people might even pool together money for one of them to buy something and share it with the others. That's the spirit of "sharing and cooperating" that @d.healey mentioned. They just don't think about how it impacts you.

I believe you're shooting yourself in the foot by rolling your own DRM. It's gonna cost you time at no proven benefit, makes your products a target for the cracking scene, will deter DRM-averse customers, and you won't be able to exploit taking a stance against DRM for your marketing efforts.


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## babylonwaves (Mar 10, 2020)

lux said:


> EWQLSO should be taken out, period.


it does not matter. I already use N instead. Never looked back.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

you say that, but has anyone heard of a pirated HZS?
Nobody has cracked JXL brass. 

I have no sympathy for piracy, and I'd be absolutely fine with a reasonable copy protection to ensure my money goes equally towards the developer and their next endeavors, rather than paying a steep price for free loaders. I'm still convinced a large chunk of the crowd that moans when they hear this big developers switching away from kontakt didn't pay for them anyways. 

with kontakt you don't even crack libraries - you just crack kontakt and any library you have on your hard drive is accessible. This means you don't even need a torrent - if your buddy owns it.


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## nolotrippen (Mar 10, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I thought EastWest had its own player now ?
> 
> Did some old libraries use Kontakt?


And other smart developers have done the same.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

d.healey said:


> You'd rather support a developer that restricts you than one that doesn't?


yes, im essentially investing into an ecosystem that I want to continue. 

If the developer is able to keep producing(and has the resources to improve and update their line up) then my money is well spent. 

Would you make the same argument for your personal automobile? Having a key is frustrating, and prevents me from even using my vehicle if I don't have it. However it also prevents others from using it. You might not see it as a personal loss because if somebody else pirates a library I paid for - it's not taking the library away from me... however it is: dampening the developers freedom and resources to improve and support that product, create future installations of similar minded products, and also devaluing the product I own. 

Freedom isn't a good thing, true freedom david, is lack of all law - in which anyone could (and would) show up to your house while you're sleeping, hatchet you and your family, and take all of your things instead of working for them. That's what true freedom circles back to; Somebody bigger and stronger forcing their own tyranny on you. Freedom sounds cool on paper, but a law is a transaction in which you give up a freedom in exchange for a security. You give up your freedom to murder without consequence in exchange for the piece of mind that your chances of being murdered goes down drastically. My freedom to not have to activate products I purchase is a small bargaining chip for making my purchase retain it's value. 

Are you a tyrant for making it harder for people to steal your stuff? You use a serial system for Sofia right? Is your version vs kontakt's implementation the choice of being shot or stabbed? 

I hate to sound overly hyperbolic here, but as soon as you bring "natural rights" into a discussion about people literally trying to protect their own "crops" it gets silly. Your natural right is that from the moment you're born you're going to die. Every other "natural" right doesnt exist, and can easily be stripped away - by another person, by a government, or simply by nature. But we do have some guidelines as a society we've agreed on for the most part - and being able to protect the fruits of your labor seems like one most sane people agree on.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> And other smart developers have done the same.


we were always at war with kontakt
we were always at war with kontakt


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## pderbidge (Mar 10, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think we should all remember that DRM, Native Access and the rest isn't actually inherently bad or evil. It's necessary because of piracy, the need to protect IP and the audio recordings contained in the product. One might not like the _method_ of DRM, but it's a requirement nonetheless if we're to have new toys.



I always find it interesting how the "industry" has consumers believing this nonsense. I was recently at at 3 day training for a company that manufacturers products that controls audio and video distribution products. I'm in the A/V industry and DRM is a big thorn when it comes to installing A/V equipment with the need to distribute audio and video to multiple displays to a University or Prison system or Airport etc.. due to the fact that a lot of DRM (mainly HDCP) standards don't think about these scenarios since they tend to be focused on a basic home installation of a one to one handshake in a living room. As we discussed the methods and work-around that had to be employed just to make devices like Apple TV and other DRM boxes work and the license fees that this control company has to pay to make all this possible the discussion morphed into the question as to why does the industry, especially Hollywood, waste so much money and developing DRM strategies for their movies/products when within just hours of release a crack for the new DRM strategy is inevitable? It just seems like a waste of time and effort and money could be better spent by providing "value" to the customer to encourage more sales.
Now wait for it.. This is where my eyes were opened. The instructor began to enlighten us to the fact that DRM was not in fact there to prevent piracy (since it's been proven time and time again that it doesn't work) but rather that it is actually a money maker for the industry (remember when I said this company pays license fees in order to support HDCP and other DRM enabled devices?) It's a "cash cow" for the industry when you realize all the devices that have to be "licensed" by these manufacturers to support whatever DRM method is deployed which is constantly changing. It's actually a "huge" money maker when you realize all the receivers, amplifiers, distribution boxes, blu ray/UHD players etc... that have to license this technology.
I know that this is a bit different than what is used in the world of software but I think the mantra "follow the money" still applies and if we all would just realize that then we would also realize that we're all getting "screwed" and that DRM has "nothing" (at least not any more) to do with piracy. I'm not saying some developers aren't bamboozled into thinking it does but I'm convinced that it does not.

Sorry for picking on your statement Alex, but it was the perfect opportunity for the rebuttal that I just had to express on this topic.


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## pderbidge (Mar 10, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> you say that, but has anyone heard of a pirated HZS?
> Nobody has cracked JXL brass.


Keep in mind that these are still "niche" libraries. If there was a broader market for these products I guarantee you would see them cracked.


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## szurcio (Mar 10, 2020)

Would it be still possible to use EWQLSO (and other Kompakt or Intakt-based libraries) within a newer version of Kontakt? Or do they have to be activated before opening the samples in Kontakt?


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

pderbidge said:


> Keep in mind that these are still "niche" libraries. If there was a broader market for these products I guarantee you would see them cracked.


that's the thing though, it's worth the effort to protect the investment at this point. 

It's not worth it for crackers - and it helps them keep money in their pockets - especially with giant names involved like zimmer or junkies.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 10, 2020)

pderbidge said:


> I always find it interesting how the "industry" has consumers believing this nonsense. I was recently at at 3 day training for a company that manufacturers products that controls audio and video distribution products. I'm in the A/V industry and DRM is a big thorn when it comes to installing A/V equipment with the need to distribute audio and video to multiple displays to a University or Prison system or Airport etc.. due to the fact that a lot of DRM (mainly HDCP) standards don't think about these scenarios since they tend to be focused on a basic home installation of a one to one handshake in a living room. As we discussed the methods and work-around that had to be employed just to make devices like Apple TV and other DRM boxes work and the license fees that this control company has to pay to make all this possible the discussion morphed into the question as to why does the industry, especially Hollywood, waste so much money and developing DRM strategies for their movies/products when within just hours of release a crack for the new DRM strategy is inevitable? It just seems like a waste of time and effort and money could be better spent by providing "value" to the customer to encourage more sales.
> Now wait for it.. This is where my eyes were opened. The instructor began to enlighten us to the fact that DRM was not in fact there to prevent piracy (since it's been proven time and time again that it doesn't work) but rather that it is actually a money maker for the industry (remember when I said this company pays license fees in order to support HDCP and other DRM enabled devices?) It's a "cash cow" for the industry when you realize all the devices that have to be "licensed" by these manufacturers to support whatever DRM method is deployed which is constantly changing. It's actually a "huge" money maker when you realize all the receivers, amplifiers, distribution boxes, blu ray/UHD players etc... that have to license this technology.
> I know that this is a bit different than what is used in the world of software but I think the mantra "follow the money" still applies and if we all would just realize that then we would also realize that we're all getting "screwed" and that DRM has "nothing" (at least not any more) to do with piracy. I'm not saying some developers aren't bamboozled into thinking it does but I'm convinced that it does not.
> 
> Sorry for picking on your statement Alex, but it was the perfect opportunity for the rebuttal that I just had to express on this topic.


No apology required! Your point is well made. Steve Jobs was always vocal that DRM in iTunes didn't work either and only did it at the behest of the record labels.

But here's the thing - there are multiple reasons for DRM and it's always oversimplified by the "free rights" crowd.

Taking last years biggest release, BBCSO as example. There are multiple "rights" within that product that need protecting. The player codebase. The raw audio recordings of the orchestra. There are multiple interested parties receiving a ROI from the product and a royalty trail to create and audit.

Where big investment and risk involved, DRM makes sense. Not just to protect the product from hackers, but to protect the interests of those financing and contributing assets to the product.

DRM is always more complicated than it first appears and all too often is unfairly distilled to "evil developer wants to make money."
My 2c.


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## pderbidge (Mar 10, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Where big investment and risk involved, DRM makes sense. Not just to protect the product from hackers, but to protect the interests of those financing and contributing assets to the product.



I can agree with this point and it's a good one. Investors want to feel like their investment is protected, even if it is superficial. It's sort of like the idea that goverment backed bonds are somehow "guaranteed" when in reality if there was a true world market catastrophe do we really believe our money would still be there?


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## Henning (Mar 10, 2020)

Still using parts of the old Ewqlso and Stormdrum libs. Damn, this sucks big time. I also use the old Kontakt HZ drums, wonder when they are going to be discarded by NI. Well, I am going to send complaint mails to them. Perhaps we should all do and sink their bloody support with these mails. Really furious about this!


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## pderbidge (Mar 10, 2020)

I would like to note that prated software is not the answer either even if it seems morally justified. I don't care to be the moral police but I just wouldn't trust a "cracked" version of anything these days, unless it was myself doing it (which I'm not smart enough to do) given that fact that there are all types of unkowns viruses floating around trying to get your information.

In the end we should vote with our wallets. It may seem limiting at first but haven't professional musicians been telling us for decades that limiting ourselves makes us better musicians?


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

pderbidge said:


> In the end we should vote with our wallets. It may seem limiting at first but haven't professional musicians been telling us for decades that limiting ourselves makes us better musicians?




that's the problem, we DID vote for our wallets, and NI threw the ballot away.


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## Hans-Peter (Mar 10, 2020)

Thanks for letting us know! To me, this means no Kontakt libraries in the future. The competition is getting ahead anyway; so, fine by me. BYE bye NI.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 10, 2020)

So I picked up Chris Hein Compact on sale during BF, if I remember correctly, and I see that the manual is saying use the Add Library - the Kontakt 5/earlier method. 6 hasn't been out that long, so I'm not sure when this library was last updated. 

I can see not supporting unsupported libraries by Kontakt. At least those that require NI to do work (authorizing) and run on the free player. I'm sure they won't care about libraries like 8Dio that require the full version of Kontakt to run. But they get no money for things like EWQLSO anymore. You can't buy it. But some of these others are still for sale, so the company is at least buying new licenses I would think?


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## chillbot (Mar 10, 2020)

KallumS said:


> EWQLSO
> Percussive Adventures
> PSP Adrenaline
> PSP Percussive Adventures 2
> ...


Dang I bought all these new-in-box (still have all the boxes), still use about 50% of them, wonder what that cost me all total...


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## Dex (Mar 10, 2020)

poetd said:


> Wasn't ewqlso discontinued over 10 years ago now? More?
> 
> Not many software manufacturers supporting products over 10 years old, I think this thread is a little harsh.
> I get people being upset, but I don't see NI doing anything massively wrong here imo.


They've already not been supporting these products for a while.

Now they're saying you can't even _install_ them ever again. That's a big difference.


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## lastmessiah (Mar 10, 2020)

I never understand the internet rage that developments like this provoke. There's people out there that still moan about compatibility with Windows 7 and 32-bit and all that. 

This is technology - it is always moving along. In the world of software, 10 year old products might as well be morse code telegraphers. It's just not worth caring about.


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## brenneisen (Mar 10, 2020)

why are you people worried? we can always fight injustice with rebellion

and rebellion is just a google search and a proxy wall away


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> I never understand the internet rage that developments like this provoke. There's people out there that still moan about compatibility with Windows 7 and 32-bit and all that.
> 
> This is technology - it is always moving along. In the world of software, 10 year old products might as well be morse code telegraphers. It's just not worth caring about.



So is NI going to give me a credit for the “old” EW libraries I still run in Kontakt? I still use a lot of these. We aren’t asking for much....just the peace of mind knowing we can install these libraries again, should the situation arise. It is definitely worth caring about.


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## averystemmler (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> 10 year old products might as well be morse code telegraphers.



There have been professionals in this thread describing exactly why they still use and still need these products.


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## Thundercat (Mar 10, 2020)

How many of you have actually complained to NI? I did. Please also take a moment and contact them and tell them how you feel. It might make a difference. En masse we have power...


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## ohernie (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> I never understand the internet rage that developments like this provoke. There's people out there that still moan about compatibility with Windows 7 and 32-bit and all that.
> 
> This is technology - it is always moving along. In the world of software, 10 year old products might as well be morse code telegraphers. It's just not worth caring about.



NO. Kontakt is technology. We're talking about sounds, as in INSTRUMENTS that utilize that technology. Instruments that we paid real money for and still play.

I think that NI, with it's incredible arrogance, has stepped waist deep into a honey bucket. I'm also wondering whether we are all screwed. This move, along with the layoffs, may be signs that they are insolvent. I don't care - if there's a class-action suit, I'm in.


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## Technostica (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> I never understand the .....


That is very clear in this case as you have failed to grasp the nuance of this issue.


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## sin(x) (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> This is technology - it is always moving along. In the world of software, 10 year old products might as well be morse code telegraphers. It's just not worth caring about.



I don't think you're getting the issue here. There's no plausible angle to explain this scenario with "technology moving forward". We're not complaining because some 32-bit era plugin won't get ported to new systems, or some developer never moved their old libraries out of Gigasampler.

*NI has all the technology required to activate, open, and play these old libraries on any new system in place right now,* as evidenced by the fact that we can still activate, open, and use them. Now, they're deciding to switch off the "activate" part on a whim. After May, their software will _still_ happily open and play the content, it just can't be activated anymore, because they're refusing to flip the bit for us that tells Kontakt that our copies are legitimate. Which means that next time we swap out our system, or change its configuration drastically enough that NI's DRM wants a reactivation (and that's a matter of when, not if), it'll be gone for good.

Do you honestly think that's something to just shrug away with a "welp, time stops for no one"? Good for you if you don't own or use any of the affected products in this case, but I'll promise you that if we just shrug practices like these away, it won't stop there, and sooner rather than later your investments will be on the line, too.

In my book it's an abuse of their DRM system, plain and simple. Which gets infinitely more serious by the fact that they have a stronghold on the VI market that's open to third party developers.


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## 667 (Mar 10, 2020)

Yeah this is BS. There is no legitimate reason to end activation support for existing products. I know some people come up with reasons why it might happen but from the technical side it is always possible. This is a business decision: possibly they are making some change to the back end and don't want to do the work (pay for engineering effort) to port/maintain the existing system that supports older products. 

Maybe it's not technical at all and it's just a money grab (force people to upgrade).


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## dzilizzi (Mar 10, 2020)

667 said:


> Yeah this is BS. There is no legitimate reason to end activation support for existing products. I know some people come up with reasons why it might happen but from the technical side it is always possible. This is a business decision: possibly they are making some change to the back end and don't want to do the work (pay for engineering effort) to port/maintain the existing system that supports older products.
> 
> Maybe it's not technical at all and it's just a money grab (force people to upgrade).


I thought that at first, but that only makes sense for their products. And maybe to quit supporting products that are no longer sold (EW as a Kontakt instrument). But what about sound libraries you can still buy new?

This is just a thought also, but I wonder if they are trying to send a message to companies like OT and Spitfire who are starting to make their own players. "If you don't continue to use Kontakt, we will cease supporting activation" Just a thought. It will backfire, I'm sure.


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## zigzag (Mar 10, 2020)

So, when you buy NI's instrument/synth, you actually only *rent it for an unspecified amount of time*?

I kind of regret investing that much money into Kontakt instruments and Komplete bundle. I should've gone with VSL, Spifire etc for orchestral and Serum/Omnisphere/Falcon etc for synths instead. I will make sure not to repeat that mistake again.

What they should have done is *remove DRM from these products*. They are discontinued anyway, so it's not like they would loose any sales because of that. On the contrary, they would probably get some additional sales on new products, because they would've gained customer's trust.


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## Stringtree (Mar 10, 2020)

The issue is that viable sound libraries that I paid honest money for are bricked. Look. The horse is still moving. Exempli gratia:

The Performance Tool for the first iteration of VSL and the Horizon Series unlocked the power of legato, repetition, and alternation. Without this magical piece of MIDI pass-through and scripting, none of those performance articulations would work again. This was a big deal, because a good portion of the library is inaccessible because the door was closed to further authentication. 

Some hardware companies disacknowledge gear that they once manufactured. A schematic that could be useful isn't available anymore because of... What is the word? A word to describe this kind of behavior, shutting the door and turning off the lights? Will there be a second date?

As far as Morse code telegraphy, it is still in use. As a matter of fact, one of my favorite conversations in ham radio was with a composer from Colorado, in CW, or continuous wave on 80M from my backyard in Ohio. But I don't think it's about how old the stuff is. 

Can I hear an amen? There was a sweet spot in virtual instrument development. Somewhere between the early 90s and 2000 there were more than adequate solutions for vintage instrument emulations and sampled instruments that are completely usable today. VSL in particular provided solo instruments and ensembles that are dirt-free. The B4 and Pro-53 are fantastic. Absynth is a very deep synth with a lot of possibilities.

Two weeks ago I authorized the EWQL Silver that was in a bargain bin at Guitar Center years ago, through the current NI authorization tool. 

It's kind of like the feeling after losing power for a day and realizing all that stuff has rotted. But sample libraries aren't perishable food. Or are they?

Greg


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

lux said:


> I think NI shoud revise the list just taking out EWQLSO. Not overly complicated.



Or so you'd think.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

szurcio said:


> Would it be still possible to use EWQLSO (and other Kompakt or Intakt-based libraries) within a newer version of Kontakt? Or do they have to be activated before opening the samples in Kontakt?



Still need to be activated first.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Chris Hein horns was just on sale 3 months ago, how is that an end-of-life product?



Was this literally just Chris Hein Horns, or CH Horns Pro or Compact? Because there's a difference: Compact and Pro are newer updates of the old CH Horns library.


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## lux (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Or so you'd think.



I understand it has to do with some authorization issue with NA. I wonder if there wouldn't be any technical alternative, from distributing new NKI's or so. I have no idea of course. 

I believe that actually the inner value of the Kontakt version of EWQLSO cannot be replaced by simply buying the Play version. It's one kind of product which, in my opinion, would deserve some extra effort to leave it alive and working.


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## MartinH. (Mar 10, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> How many of you have actually complained to NI? I did. Please also take a moment and contact them and tell them how you feel. It might make a difference. En masse we have power...


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## 667 (Mar 10, 2020)

Also this is one of the things I often give as the reason I prefer iLok. As long as I have my (working) iLok I can install and use the products/licenses I PAID for. With online activation you can use the product as long as the company allows you to activate it. We can see for NI that there is a shelf life.

The only ethical way to handle this is to keep the activation services running forever (the price of a company using DRM: you take peoples' money, you have to keep access up) or to release unencumbered versions of the software that do not require activation, such as Camel Audio did when they were acquired by Apple.

I'm of the position that these are their only legal options as well, guess time will tell. Being in .de I hope they get sued, I really do.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 10, 2020)

667 said:


> Also this is one of the things I often give as the reason I prefer iLok. As long as I have my (working) iLok I can install and use the products/licenses I PAID for. With online activation you can use the product as long as the company allows you to activate it. We can see for NI that there is a shelf life.
> 
> The only ethical way to handle this is to keep the activation services running forever (the price of a company using DRM: you take peoples' money, you have to keep access up) or to release unencumbered versions of the software that do not require activation, such as Camel Audio did when they were acquired by Apple.
> 
> I'm of the position that these are their only legal options as well, guess time will tell. Being in .de I hope they get sued, I really do.


iLok quitting business is something I do worry about. I would be really screwed. 

Though my Waves effects will still work!


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

lux said:


> I understand it has to do with some authorization issue with NA. I wonder if there wouldn't be any technical alternative, from distributing new NKI's or so. I have no idea of course.



First things first, as far as I know, NI has went through three different authorization algorithms in the past: RAS1 (this oldest stuff being faded out), RAS2 and RAS3 (more current stuff that which works for everything newer. So you can't just leave EWQLSO in and all the others out.


One thing that could perhaps be done is to update Kontakt in such a way that it simply opens the NKIs of affected libraries with bypassed authorization check (and I will propose that to Kontakt team). Each library has its own unique library ID, so targeting particular libs would be possible.

However, this sorta makes Kontakt similar to pirated version of Kontakt (which bypasses the authorization check entirely when loading NKIs), so it's a bit of gray area... it also needs to be discussed with 3rd party library vendors, and I'm pretty sure EW would not be up for that idea. Erghm. It's a pickle either way.

On the other hand, in case that this updated Kontakt method does go through, this would mean that you would have to update *all *your old DAW projects *pronto* from whatever Kontakt/Kompakt/Intakt version was loaded in them, with this latest Kontakt, in order to make your project futureproof (as much as it can be futureproofed). Still better than nothing.


Let's see what happens.


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## averystemmler (Mar 10, 2020)

667 said:


> Also this is one of the things I often give as the reason I prefer iLok. As long as I have my (working) iLok I can install and use the products/licenses I PAID for. With online activation you can use the product as long as the company allows you to activate it. We can see for NI that there is a shelf life.
> 
> The only ethical way to handle this is to keep the activation services running forever (the price of a company using DRM: you take peoples' money, you have to keep access up) or to release unencumbered versions of the software that do not require activation, such as Camel Audio did when they were acquired by Apple.
> 
> I'm of the position that these are their only legal options as well, guess time will tell. Being in .de I hope they get sued, I really do.



I'm torn on the subject. My concern with iLok is that, really, you're in the same boat. Once PACE goes under or decides to stop being responsible for a particular license, you're dependant on that dongle remaining intact.

I guess it's easier to keep a dongle in one piece than it is to keep a particular piece of software installed for decades, but you're still eventually dependant on a server being up.


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## Stringtree (Mar 10, 2020)

I'm confused as to why people who bought the stuff would be hit by a remote kill switch. Some have proposed nefarious purposes, but whatever the reasons shouldn't this at least be a lesson for the future? I buy good stuff in part because I know it will last. I asked a developer to promise it would last if I bought it. There wasn't any answer specifically answering that. A Kontakt Player library.

Okay, discontinue Albion and Albion, Loegria. Don't offer them for sale anymore. But I would have to sit down for a long time if those reached the same kind of end-of-life murder that's happening here. Turn them off? Issue a kill based on the arbitrary failure point of my hardware for your thing that I licensed however many years ago? 

The above Spitfire example is not true, but could happen, couldn't it? 

What if NI come for Damage next? 

Greg


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Let's see what happens.



Mario, can you shed any light on what has happened with Stormdrum 1 (and for all I know other EW products?) This is *currently authorized by Native Access*. Everything works, right now, in NA, K5 and K6. So if they can do it for that.... a) why not do it for all legacy libraries and b) why now actually remove this perfect solution in May?!!!

EDIT - just to add that both halves of the library work just fine, and appear as separate (albeit blank) tabs in Kontakt's library pane.


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## Thundercat (Mar 10, 2020)

MartinH. said:


>


Strange - I linked to the support page where a big button was available to start a ticket. I guess you’ll have to find it on your own.

crazy they still have a reference to TG


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> Mario, can you shed any light on what has happened with Stormdrum 1 (and for all I know other EW products?) This is *currently authorized by Native Access*. Everything works, right now, in NA, K5 and K6. So if they can do it for that.... a) why not do it for all legacy libraries and b) why now actually remove this perfect solution in May?!!!



It's related to what I already mentioned in my prior post. All those libraries from that list use RAS1 activation system which is being faded out from NA. You have to divorce Kontakt version from activation system used. Kontakt 5/6 use RAS3.


Also, guys, NA has a different EULA.


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## Henning (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> First things first, as far as I know, NI has went through three different authorization algorithms in the past: RAS1 (this oldest stuff being faded out), RAS2 and RAS3 (more current stuff that which works for everything newer. So you can't just leave EWQLSO in and all the others out.
> 
> 
> One thing that could perhaps be done is to update Kontakt in such a way that it simply opens the NKIs of affected libraries with bypassed authorization check (and I will propose that to Kontakt team). Each library has its own unique library ID, so targeting particular libs would be possible.
> ...


That's very kind of you! Thanks a lot for doing this!


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## ohernie (Mar 10, 2020)

Yes, I know there could be a big performance hit, but ... is encapsulation inside a virtual machine a possibility?


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> It's related to what I already mentioned in my prior post. All those libraries from that list use RAS1 activation system which is being faded out from NA. You have to divorce Kontakt version from activation system used. Kontakt 5/6 use RAS3.
> 
> 
> Also, guys, NA has a different EULA.



Right, got it now I think.

So the Service Center thing is a red herring, the whole issue comes down to wanting to drop an earlier authorisation method which Native Access currently supports.

OK, so one other solution could be for NI to simply re-encode the RAS 1 libraries with new authorisation. Easy for me to say, but I'd have thought that should be a one-click process? (I can hear the hollow laughter from here!). But if that were doable, you'd just need to update the product in Native Access (and have it at least recognise a legacy product so it could perform the update).


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## Drundfunk (Mar 10, 2020)

poetd said:


> Wasn't ewqlso discontinued over 10 years ago now? More?
> 
> Not many software manufacturers supporting products over 10 years old, I think this thread is a little harsh.
> I get people being upset, but I don't see NI doing anything massively wrong here imo.


Well as Charlie said, 10 years might be a lot in software years but not in movie years. So from that point of view it's understandable how this can be frustrating.


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## Wunderhorn (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Or so you'd think.



If NI values their customers at all it is either putting effort into it to make it work or leaving things as they are.

We are worth it.

Everything else is burning bridges. Look at what hate Adobe has created. Such a poisoned relationship is no fun for anyone, not for NI either.

There is a saying in German that goes like this: "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall" (Arrogance comes before a fall). It carries a lot of truth.


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## José Herring (Mar 10, 2020)

Could this be a move to start barring 3rd party Kontakt Libraries? I know that so far I'm only interested in the ones that I own but who says they will stop at the above list. Some of these libraries mentioned aren't even really that old.


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## José Herring (Mar 10, 2020)

The reason why I asked is that I'm considering buying libraries as replacements but some of the libraries are already 8 to 9 years old. When will NI considering dropping those? In a year? 5 years? 

Libraries now have a shelf life.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> OK, so one other solution could be for NI to simply re-encode the RAS 1 libraries with new authorisation. Easy for me to say, but I'd have thought that should be a one-click process?



Unfortunately it's far from a one click process, plus NI would need to have all the original assets and so on... It is not exactly feasible.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Some of these libraries mentioned aren't even really that old.



Which ones? Because all of those listed use the oldest authorization method NI used, which places all that stuff at 10+ years ago.


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## José Herring (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Which ones? Because all of those listed use the oldest authorization method NI used, which places all that stuff at 10+ years ago.


I was looking at Symphonic Sphere, OSR. I was also looking at CinePerc. Ark 1, ect.... These are libraries I planned on getting at some point. Never got around to it. Now I'm wondering if I even should.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

Those libraries are not in the list at all. You can get them, they will work.

Really, all the libraries that are in the list are the oldest ones released for Kompakt and Intakt, a long long time ago.


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## LamaRose (Mar 10, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> "...people are serene."
> 
> Perfect PC term for "ripe for slaughter."


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## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

Why didn't everyone get up-in-arms when NI unilaterally sold-out the ability to perform C/R activation offline? That was equally draconian, and this is but another expression of the kind of abuse that can and will happen when you have unchecked corporate monopolistic power by an entity that, at the end of the day, only cares about best serving its own capital interest.

But whatever. The take-away for me is that I will never, ever again spend a bloody dime on any VI or effects plugin that depends on the good graces of a 2nd-party remote activation process. In the future I will only consider purchasing products that give me 100% local control over when, where and how I choose to instantiate them, similar to what we take for granted when purchasing traditional hardware appliances. It's that simple.

To paraphrase Proudhon: "All DRM is theft."


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## sin(x) (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Those libraries are not in the list at all. You can get them, they will work.



Yet now we know NI isn't below sniping content it deems "too old". I agree with Jose that that doesn't exactly instill confidence in getting more VIs that live inside NI's walled garden, even if they're fine for now.

It certainly has a chilling effect, which IMO is something third-party developers should take note of.


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## Andrew Aversa (Mar 10, 2020)

I think this is not a good move on NI's part. I use libraries like EWQLSO Gold, Ra, and Stormdrum all the time and paid good money for them back in 2004 or so.

That being said, I don't think NI is a monopoly. There are clearly alternative samplers and virtual instrument platforms out there, from proprietary first-party stuff (VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools) to open source (HISE) to semi-open (Falcon, EXS-24, etc.)


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## José Herring (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Those libraries are not in the list at all. You can get them, they will work.
> 
> Really, all the libraries that are in the list are the oldest ones released for Kompakt and Intakt, a long long time ago.


I know they aren't on the list.....yet. That is the point I'm trying to make. I think there is a generational thing going on here. I'm 52 years old now. 10+ years seems like yesterday to me. 

So, if I see a library that I wanted say 9 years ago and still want to get it but haven't. If I do get it how long before it does make that list. See what I"m saying?


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## Stringtree (Mar 10, 2020)

It's a privilege to have such informed answers and reactions. Thanks!

To discontinue a product and make it no longer available is the creator's prerogative. To issue a Time-To-Live command based upon arbitrary factors such as the users' hardware is a real blow to the people who said, "Yeah. This is good," and bought it fast.

Anybody see a recent product demo from a company that was yanked online? I mean, made not to have existed? Me neither. Wait, wait, don't tell me. It irritates me that these perfectly usable products are being locked up and forgotten.

There are some very serious people who have said some of those products in that list are natural patches to go to for certain sketching. As developers, you developer folks may burp out something that is now out of fashion, but it is that very thing that you created that thrilled us enough to buy it. Are you really going to forget us? In a lot of ways, we are ambassadors.

I never imagined a bunch of music nerds would be so cutthroat. Yes, there's piracy. I am really proud when I have something that I could support the developer with my purchase of it.

We know these old patches and instruments like their hardware relatives. Man, some of them are so good. You're killing them, and they've been our friends for a long, long time. I won't lose you immediately, but when my other friend dies: my computer that I will need to replace. You're keyed to him, so you'll have to lose your life too, and on the same day. I'm sorry it has to be this way. It's not the sort of relationship I ever had from my side. 

Baby, this is not the way to cultivate an ongoing software acquisition relationship. I like it a little dangerous, but I wasn't born under a cabbage leaf. Having been given a friendly introduction to a dumpster fire before, I am somewhat sensitive to the disinvestment of my purchases being immolated. 

The email was curt. Cool, so some dumb things I never bought will be deprecated. Then you guys started talking! A list as long as a baby's arm! These were expensive and capable products. This does not compute. 

Goya, Saturn Devouring his Son, Wikipedia, Public Domain.


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## José Herring (Mar 10, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> I think this is not a good move on NI's part. I use libraries like EWQLSO Gold, Ra, and Stormdrum all the time and paid good money for them back in 2004 or so.
> 
> That being said, I don't think NI is a monopoly. There are clearly alternative samplers and virtual instrument platforms out there, from proprietary first-party stuff (VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools) to open source (HISE) to semi-open (Falcon, EXS-24, etc.)


Yes. Sure EWQLSO has gone out of style a bit around here in favor of newer libraries but in truth, just in the percussion alone I still use all of that. I'm going through the patches right now and just the amount of stuff you get is incredible and it all sounds good. I'm an HS and HB user as well. If I replace my Kontakt version of EWQLSO with the Play version nearly 70%+ of my template will be Play. I don't want that. 

So, now I'm looking at other libraries that are Kontakt based but how long before they fall into the NI waste bin? My feeling, not long at all.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I know they aren't on the list.....yet. That is the point I'm trying to make. I think there is a generational thing going on here. I'm 52 years old now. 10+ years seems like yesterday to me.
> 
> So, if I see a library that I wanted say 9 years ago and still want to get it but haven't. If I do get it how long before it does make that list. See what I"m saying?




If I'm understanding some things Matt @ NI mentioned in this thread here, it seems that RAS1 activation is creating problems under Catalina, for whatever underlying reason. RAS2 and RAS3 are fine and appear futureproof enough (so don't expect any other Kontakt libraries being put in the "waste bin" any time soon).


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## Stringtree (Mar 10, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I know they aren't on the list.....yet. That is the point I'm trying to make. I think there is a generational thing going on here. I'm 52 years old now. 10+ years seems like yesterday to me.
> 
> So, if I see a library that I wanted say 9 years ago and still want to get it but haven't. If I do get it how long before it does make that list. See what I"m saying?




It's a tranche of libraries that are from an earlier period, I think. Just an amateur here. It doesn't necessarily signal anything from within that would suggest your other libraries are in danger. What's good in the past? Is this a fire sale? 

OK, you're old, man. If you think something sounds good today in terms of a sample library, you're probably not going to kick it out of your stable ten years from now. You know what you like. I'm the same way. 

The aperture is closing, very publicly, for certain libraries. These are now closed to me in terms of development. There certainly won't be any funds toward those developers. What else would be a smart decision? 

Greg


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## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> I think this is not a good move on NI's part. I use libraries like EWQLSO Gold, Ra, and Stormdrum all the time and paid good money for them back in 2004 or so.
> 
> That being said, I don't think NI is a monopoly. There are clearly alternative samplers and virtual instrument platforms out there, from proprietary first-party stuff (VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools) to open source (HISE) to semi-open (Falcon, EXS-24, etc.)


One could validly argue that NI and Kontakt isn't quite a monopoly, because, yes, there are some relatively limited, niche alternatives. But when you look at the sheer number of developers and products (including ISW) who depend on the Kontakt platform and how wide of a net it casts, I think it's fair to use the term.

Where I live, there is only one electric company, and even though one could always chop wood and light candles, or go high-end and buy solar panels and generators etc., it's still a de facto monopoly. Kontakt IMHO is in an analogous position.


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## Peter Williams (Mar 10, 2020)

I am rabidly disgusted with this development. At the very least, we should be able to use the "files" loader or "quickload" process to access the patches from these older libraries. I still use a number of patches from the old "Colossus" and "Acoustic Piano" libraries. No re-registration should be needed. In fact, they discontinued registration for Acoustic Piano some time ago and I can still load those instruments easily through the "file" method. This suggests to me that there may be workarounds.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> If I'm understanding some things Matt @ NI mentioned in this thread here, it seems that RAS1 activation is creating problems under Catalina, for whatever underlying reason. RAS2 and RAS3 are fine and appear futureproof enough (so don't expect any other Kontakt libraries being put in the "waste bin" any time soon).


Always Apple causing problems with their updates. *runs and hides under my Windows 10 computer that still can run 2006 software*

I was actually wondering if Apple was the cause of this but didn't want to start anything by mentioning it.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 10, 2020)

In the case of the EW libraries....maybe either EW or NI could unlock those or something? That way they would simply load up into Kontakt just like non-NKI libraries such as 8Dio.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

EW has nothing to do with unlocking them, it's NI's activation method that is being used. And yes this is something that I suggested might be a solution for those old Kompakt/Intakt libraries, but it's not my call to make.


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## szurcio (Mar 10, 2020)

Morphology and Nostalgia libraries are on the list and they are still being sold by Zero G (format: Kontakt files and Wav). Should I worry about these too? I purchased both of them about 3 years ago.


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## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

BTW, when Native Access first hit the scene, I wrote to NI and asked, specifically, whether the pre-Kontakt 5.6.8 libraries would continue to be available and activated under the older system. They assured me that support for those "legacy" products would be maintained. This is exactly what they said: 

_For products that use Service Center for activation on supported OS versions, this will be supported. For all current Native Instruments products, Service Center is no longer used and require activation with Native Access. _
_For products that support the use of Service Center and offline activation (legacy products and versions), yes it will be possible. _

With the closing of the old Service Center, this is proving not to be the case. In short, they lied.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

szurcio said:


> Morphology and Nostalgia libraries are on the list and they are still being sold by Zero G (format: Kontakt files and Wav). Should I worry about these too? I purchased both of them about 3 years ago.



They are sold as regular Kontakt libraries now, not Kontakt Player. They should work just fine from Files browser.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> They are sold as regular Kontakt libraries now, not Kontakt Player. They should work just fine from Files browser.


So this situation is similar to Chris Hein Horns, mentioned earlier in this thread. I wonder how many other products in the list have been updated without changing the product name or platform, thus creating this ambiguiity. (I'm not referring to EWQL products where the platform changed.)


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

CHH had names changed - what was originally CHH is now CHH Compact or CHH Pro. Or CHH Complete. Also with apparently vastly expanded content.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

I’d love if someone could provide a user agreement from these products that say otherwise, but I’m pretty sure all these arguments her are invalid because you don’t actually own these products. You own a license to use them and if they’re discontinued there is no obligation for anyone to maintain these products for your use.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> If I'm understanding some things Matt @ NI mentioned in this thread here, it seems that RAS1 activation is creating problems under Catalina, for whatever underlying reason. RAS2 and RAS3 are fine and appear futureproof enough (so don't expect any other Kontakt libraries being put in the "waste bin" any time soon).


If Catalina is the only technical issue, then why not just announce that Service Center -- and therefore the products in the list -- will never be compatible with Catalina? Why prevent new installations on all other platforms as well?


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## MartinH. (Mar 10, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Strange - I linked to the support page where a big button was available to start a ticket. I guess you’ll have to find it on your own.
> 
> crazy they still have a reference to TG



That message came up after I sent my support ticket. If the message only shows when they are getting lots of tickets, it could explain why no one noticed since then.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> If Catalina is the only technical issue, then why not just announce that Service Center -- and therefore the products in the list -- will never be compatible with Catalina? Why prevent new installations on all other platforms as well?



Don't ask me!


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## szurcio (Mar 10, 2020)

that's the key statement here: "you own a license to use them" - how can you use a license if you can't activate it? I don't mind them discontinuing a product and not maintaining it any longer but they should provide a way to keep using that old license (like Camel Audio did before abandoning their PC users)


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## Technostica (Mar 10, 2020)

Would it be so hard for them to say exactly why they are doing this?
They are acting like a bad parent that acts in a draconian way with no explanation.
This might trigger some people who had difficult childhoods!


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## David Kudell (Mar 10, 2020)

So when East West moved to Play, they didn't give owners of the Kontakt libraries access to the libraries within Play?
Can't those who have MIDI tracks using those instruments just swap out Kontakt for Play on those tracks?


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

szurcio said:


> that's the key statement here: "you own a license to use them" - how can you use a license if you can't activate it? I don't mind them discontinuing a product and not maintaining it any longer but they should provide a way to keep using that old license (like Camel Audio did before abandoning their PC users)



This is the catch. For NI software it entirely depends on their user agreement. If NI is not the developer nor distributor of the software, just because they’re the platform for use doesn’t mean they’re obligated to continue support for the software.


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## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

Technostica said:


> Would it be so hard for them to say exactly why they are doing this?
> They are acting like a bad parent that acts in a draconian way with no explanation.
> This might trigger some people who had difficult childhoods!


They did say why they are doing this, at least in disingenuous, forked-tongued corporate-speak. You can read it here:









NI stop activations on legacy libraries


Grateful if someone from NI can explain to customers how this is a) legal or b) ethical. Thanks....




www.native-instruments.com


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Can't those who have MIDI tracks using those instruments just swap out Kontakt for Play on those tracks?



Not sure if they made the PLAY versions match the same keyswitches used in Kontakt. If yes, then it would work. If no, it wouldn't necessarily.


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## jcrosby (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> This is technology - it is always moving along. In the world of software, 10 year old products might as well be morse code telegraphers. It's just not worth caring about.


Is this technology actually moving forward though? Or is it technology leaving you behind?


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## jcrosby (Mar 10, 2020)

Quasar said:


> They did say why they are doing this, at least in disingenuous, forked-tongued corporate-speak. You can read it here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting Apple plays a role in this, (even if not directly). I was actually wondering this earlier before reading that NI thread... One more reason why people should voice equal, (if not a hell of a lot more) frustration toward them. This situation with Catalina and software EOL is only going to get worse if people don't start bitching to them directly.

No shame in sending a rage rant to Apple:


Feedback - macOS - Apple


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Interesting Apple has a role in this. One more reason why people should voice equal, (if not significantly more) frustration toward them.
> 
> No shame in voicing your opinion to Apple:
> 
> ...



I imagine that discontinuation of non 64 bit software could be a common thing for other OSes down the line too. It’s fair reasoning though that if these softwares can’t even be installed anymore, there’s no sense in maintaining a system for authorizing them. It’s not fortunate for the user, but it seems like this would come up eventually for 10+ year old software.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

Hmmm. Native Access EULA:

"5. Should Native Instruments, for whatever reasons, no longer be able to fulfill its obligations to deliver the activation key, it will provide Licensee with a key which ensures the continued use of the licensed software independent of changes to the computer."


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## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> *Artificial obsolescence.* Feels like Gigastudio all over again, in a way.
> 
> I don’t think any of the noises coming from that company have been positive.
> 
> ...



I've been trying to get the phrase _predatory obsolescence_ into common parlance for a while now. So please feel free to use it if the spirit moves you.


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## sin(x) (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> "5. Should Native Instruments, for whatever reasons, no longer be able to fulfill its obligations to deliver the activation key, it will provide Licensee with a key which ensures the continued use of the licensed software independent of changes to the computer."



Now *that*. Is interesting. Good digging there!


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## jcrosby (Mar 10, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I imagine that discontinuation of non 64 bit software could be a common thing for other OSes down the line too. It’s fair reasoning though that if these softwares can’t even be installed anymore, there’s no sense in maintaining a system for authorizing them. It’s not fortunate for the user, but it seems like this would come up eventually for 10+ year old software.


It doesn't necessarily have to be the only solution though. I've been sending in regular feedback/complaints about Catalina. I'd rather make an effort than passively let this happen, even if fruitless..

I've been making weekly requests for a paid version of macOS ("_ProOS") _where compatibility is priced into the cost of a new version of macOS, like how OSX Server used to be available... I'd pay $99 in a heartbeat if it meant Apple stopping this EOL cycle they've kicked off..

As shitty as Apple are, they actually do follow through when an issue gains a critical mass. Not to mention that it actually appeals to their biggest growth sector in the past few years, _selling services..._ Show me me a compatibility focused OS and I'll drop $100 on it and make the case for it being a service worth selling without flinching.

Sure it's most likely a bunch of hot air, but no shame in making an effort... Their feedback form is there for a reason, no sense in not using it to complain... (Even if not a mac user. The nonsense they kicked off in Catalina affects everyone in this thread.)


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## David Kudell (Mar 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Interesting Apple plays a role in this, (even if not directly). I was actually wondering this earlier before reading that NI thread... One more reason why people should voice equal, (if not a hell of a lot more) frustration toward them. This situation with Catalina and software EOL is only going to get worse if people don't start bitching to them directly.
> 
> No shame in sending a rage rant to Apple:
> 
> ...



Apple improving their OS every year is what pushes the industry forward. I'm in my mid-40's and have grown up with it, along with people complaining every time they update something.

If some people had their way, Mac's would still have Firewire 400 ports, USB 2.0, PowerPC chips, and be able to run Netscape Navigator flawlessly.


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## tmhuud (Mar 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Is this technology actually moving forward though? Or is it technology leaving you behind?



sometimes i think the technology is IN my behind.


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## oboemaroni (Mar 10, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> How many of you have actually complained to NI? I did. Please also take a moment and contact them and tell them how you feel. It might make a difference. En masse we have power...


Can all the people objecting here post in the NI support forum where they're more likely to be seen? Link: https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/ni-stop-activations-on-legacy-libraries.376981/


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Hmmm. Native Access EULA:
> 
> "5. Should Native Instruments, for whatever reasons, no longer be able to fulfill its obligations to deliver the activation key, it will provide Licensee with a key which ensures the continued use of the licensed software independent of changes to the computer."



Very good spot! How, technically, could they do that exactly?


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Hmmm. Native Access EULA:
> 
> "5. Should Native Instruments, for whatever reasons, no longer be able to fulfill its obligations to deliver the activation key, it will provide Licensee with a key which ensures the continued use of the licensed software independent of changes to the computer."



I imagine the legal question is does this agreement apply to software that predates native access.


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## lastmessiah (Mar 10, 2020)

ohernie said:


> NO. Kontakt is technology. We're talking about sounds, as in INSTRUMENTS that utilize that technology. Instruments that we paid real money for and still play.
> 
> I think that NI, with it's incredible arrogance, has stepped waist deep into a honey bucket. I'm also wondering whether we are all screwed. This move, along with the layoffs, may be signs that they are insolvent. I don't care - if there's a class-action suit, I'm in.



I see your point but it still amounts to a minor inconvenience. You bounce the projects that use these sounds to audio or you make whatever midi edits you need to before deactivation, and then you move on.

Maybe there's no good reason for NI to deactivate them in the first place, but just about everything in the world happens for no good reason. Companies will make broad sweeping changes to their customer facing policies and there's not much you or I can do about it. I'd rather just shrug my shoulders and "out with the old" than invest in futile gestures of outrage.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> How, technically, could they do that exactly?



Same way pirates do it: create a keygen which generates authorization keys locally on your computer, without mediation of remote authorization server.

Alternatively, maybe there already are some reserved serial numbers that bypass the authorization, if they implemented that in the product itself. Unsure on that.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 10, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I imagine the legal question is does this agreement apply to software that predates native access.



"continued use of *licensed software*"

Nowhere in the EULA is discontinued or legacy software being mentioned. Discontinued or not you still own the license to the software to use it. No? Seems pretty solid, but again IANAL.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> I'd rather just shrug my shoulders and "out with the old" than invest in futile gestures of outrage.



And that's how companies like this get away with this crap. We need to go down fighting, at least.


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## chillbot (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> I see your point but it still amounts to a minor inconvenience.


Not sure what you are bringing to this discussion or why you keep chiming in.

But your assessment of the situation is clueless. I still use EWQLSO on a daily basis, I've used it in thousands and thousands of tracks. I don't think it's debatable that technology has gotten better, but it is certainly debatable whether people have improved on sample recordings in the last 10-15 years, and, more so, the programming of said samples in a way that I am accustomed to and can make do what I want quickly and without endless tweaking.

It's fine... if it winds up going this route, it will just force me to do something illegal which I've never done before. But... then you have to consider the debate of, is it illegal for me to use an illegal copy of a program that I own (kontakt) in order to play samples that I also own. Of course it's illegal... but yet, I'm still not using any software that I haven't paid for.


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## Robo Rivard (Mar 10, 2020)

It's a big exit for everything EW on my side, except Spaces 2, that works with iLok.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> "continued use of *licensed software*"
> 
> Nowhere in the EULA is discontinued or legacy software being mentioned. Discontinued or not you still own the license to the software to use it. No? Seems pretty solid, but again IANAL.



What an agreement doesn’t say allows for misinterpretation and manipulation by both sides. In this case, big companies might benefit from the warranty and user agreements from the software themselves. The conditions of the licenses are for your use within the guidelines of the user agreement. If the user agreement does not guarantee endless support for the software, that’s an area for manipulation to say that the license is no longer valid if the product is discontinued.

In this case “licensed software” could be interpreted to mean currently active and valid license.


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## MikeH (Mar 10, 2020)

It’s times like these that I envy John Williams, who just wakes up every day and uses the same piano, pencil, and paper and doesn’t have to mess with any of this crap.


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## gsilbers (Mar 10, 2020)

- Update Massive X so it doesnt work with older computers w/o avx. A tech that doesnt seem it was necesary for massive x (debatable of course)

-Fire a lot of people to downsize since NI got $88 million (w a few strings attached i presume)

-Remove support for old prodcuts


Im guessing its all part of their turnaround efforts. somehow.


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## chillbot (Mar 10, 2020)

If there is that much of a need, couldn't something come along to fill the void? A kontakt-player-player? I mean G-Player is great and I use it every day, and it didn't come out until after Giga went under.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Hmmm. Native Access EULA:
> 
> "5. Should Native Instruments, for whatever reasons, no longer be able to fulfill its obligations to deliver the activation key, it will provide Licensee with a key which ensures the continued use of the licensed software independent of changes to the computer."


It's too bad this only applies to the libraries and plugins that Native Access manages, and not to earlier products.

Do you have a link to this EULA? It's not displayed when you install Native Access.

EDIT on March 11: This same language is also in EULAs as early as April, 2009 (as reported in a post on the NI forum).


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

chillbot said:


> If there is that much of a need, couldn't something come along to fill the void? A kontakt-player-player? I mean G-Player is great and I use it every day, and it didn't come out until after Giga went under.



It wouldn’t be bad to look at the signs that imply this is an avalanche coming down. Spitfire, orchestral tools have bee pushing their proprietary players, and even 8Dio seemed to imply the desire to do the same....perhaps they’re all hitting a wall with NI and are trying to get away.


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## gsilbers (Mar 10, 2020)

chillbot said:


> If there is that much of a need, couldn't something come along to fill the void? A kontakt-player-player? I mean G-Player is great and I use it every day, and it didn't come out until after Giga went under.




i think chicken systems translator cannot open these type of files. 

I would guess some sort of autosampler software to sample the patches used the most, but it would loose a lot of the programming like legatos etc.


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## gsilbers (Mar 10, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> It wouldn’t be bad to look at the signs that imply this is an avalanche coming down. Spitfire, orchestral tools have bee pushing their proprietary players, and even 8Dio seemed to imply the desire to do the same....perhaps they’re all hitting a wall with NI and are trying to get away.



I do see several postings looking for JUCE developers for these type of work. 8dio included. 

The downside is having to support mac OSx upgrades. and those look even dimmer outlook than NI stuff since a new twist in apples plans like what happen in catalina or maybe when they upgrade to ARM chips instead of intel might throw a wrench on these custom samplers.


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## jcrosby (Mar 10, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> If some people had their way, Mac's would still have Firewire 400 ports, USB 2.0, PowerPC chips, and be able to run Netscape Navigator flawlessly.


A ridiculous false equivalency.


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## jcrosby (Mar 10, 2020)

tmhuud said:


> sometimes i think the technology is IN my behind.


Well played sir.


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## Technostica (Mar 10, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> - Update Massive X so it doesnt work with older computers w/o avx. A tech that doesnt seem it was necesary for massive x (debatable of course)


Massive X never worked without AVX support from the start. 
But that's a completely separate issue.


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## MartinH. (Mar 10, 2020)

My support request was already answered (a lot quicker than I thought). When you write support tickets, please keep in mind that likely all the support people weren't involved in the decision, so stay polite. I didn't even ask any questions because the thread on their supportforum makes it look like the support people don't have any real answers to give yet anyway, and just asked that my complaints are forwarded to the responsible people in management.



> Hello Martin,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write to us. We appreciate your feedback, and this message has been passed onto our management as requested.
> Best regards



I basically told them if they go through with their plan without offering a DRM-free alternative for the affected products, I'm no longer investing into NI products or Kontakt libraries. I'm a hobbiest, I have the freedom to just do that and I believe a lot of their customerbase is in a similar situation. 

I intend to use my libraries even 20 or 30 years later (and I'm sure on windows I'll be able to, if DRM doesn't get in the way. I still use winamp by the way) and I'm not investing into more tools if I'm not reasonably confident I'll be able to do that.


This whole event makes me feel resentful about all the DRM'ed stuff I bought. Makes me feel like a total sucker (the opposite of how your paying customers should feel). Just like back in the days where I bought a DVD box of a show that I really liked, and it made me sit through a 3 minute unskippable campaign ad against movie piracy. Guess who didn't buy another season of that show?




Quasar said:


> I've been trying to get the phrase _predatory obsolescence_ into common parlance for a while now. So please feel free to use it if the spirit moves you.



I'd recommend not to. I agree with the sentiment, but it will definitely lead to people taking you less serious. Try sticking to less emotionally charged terms if you want to change people's minds. Stick to the facts, they're dramatic enough.


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> I do see several postings looking for JUCE developers for these type of work. 8dio included.
> 
> The downside is having to support mac OSx upgrades. and those look even dimmer outlook than NI stuff since a new twist in apples plans like what happen in catalina or maybe when they upgrade to ARM chips instead of intel might throw a wrench on these custom samplers.



I think like with Catalina, most companies will choose to continue supporting the Apple platform because the user base is significant. They’re one part of NI’s numerous problems moving forward. My theory is that the industry is realizing that at some point massive redesign is inevitable. You can’t realistically take a code base from 10+ years from before and expect that patches will allow it to be its most optimal form as the technology and OS’s change. A lot of developers are trying to avoid that inevitable point where they have to rebuild their software from the ground up to give it another 10 years of life and optimization. This seems to be the big issue on iOS now. A lot of developer realizing their stacked up code has a limit.


----------



## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I know they aren't on the list.....yet. That is the point I'm trying to make. I think there is a generational thing going on here. I'm 52 years old now. 10+ years seems like yesterday to me.
> 
> So, if I see a library that I wanted say 9 years ago and still want to get it but haven't. If I do get it how long before it does make that list. See what I"m saying?



I think your concern is spot-on valid. To believe that current or very recent libraries are somehow magically anymore "future proof" than the stuff NI is flushing down the toilet today would be naive to the point of insanity. There will always be a "next thing", a new architecture, and there will always be an at-the-ready technobabble excuse to rip-off customers by claiming that the system can no longer accommodate their older products.

It sets a terrible, terrible precedent if allowed to stand. It's pure theft. No other way to put it.


----------



## Andrew Aversa (Mar 10, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Apple improving their OS every year is what pushes the industry forward. I'm in my mid-40's and have grown up with it, along with people complaining every time they update something.
> 
> If some people had their way, Mac's would still have Firewire 400 ports, USB 2.0, PowerPC chips, and be able to run Netscape Navigator flawlessly.



Continually breaking compatibility with older standards has rarely worked out in a way that benefits the consumer. It seems to only benefit Apple and Apple's bank account (see: selling useless accessories, dongles, and adapters.)


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> My support request was already answered (a lot quicker than I thought). When you write support tickets, please keep in mind that likely all the support people weren't involved in the decision, so stay polite. I didn't even ask any questions because the thread on their supportforum makes it look like the support people don't have any real answers to give yet anyway, and just asked that my complaints are forwarded to the responsible people in management.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is always a major issue. Professional interest and hobbiest interest are different but both have valid points. I would be very careful about investing in these products if the intent is to use them for more than 10 years. For so many reasons I expect my software to be discontinued or abandoned, regardless of if it’s kontakt or proprietary. The only thing that saves me is that I know I can put off the investment with my work.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Mar 10, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Same way pirates do it: create a keygen which generates authorization keys locally on your computer, without mediation of remote authorization server.
> 
> Alternatively, maybe there already are some reserved serial numbers that bypass the authorization, if they implemented that in the product itself. Unsure on that.



That would be interesting times for sure in either case. Thanks Mario.

I think the response so far from users has been good. Keep it up, folks, polite but firm. And voluminous. This one can't stand, I think it will be an industry (and of course NI) precedent if it does.


----------



## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I'd recommend not to. I agree with the sentiment, but it will definitely lead to people taking you less serious. Try sticking to less emotionally charged terms if you want to change people's minds. Stick to the facts, they're dramatic enough.



I think we generally see these issues in a similar way and are on the same side, but I disagree here. The problem with using or not using hperbole, or "emotionally charged" terms is that there is always a hypocritical double-standard at work. It's perfectly socially acceptable in the mainstream culture to call an impovershed street criminal or a teenage software pirate a "scumbag" or whatever, but whenever it's white collar crime perpetrated by a higher socioeconomic class we always have to be very careful to maintain a tone of respect. Fuck all of that...


----------



## jcrosby (Mar 10, 2020)

chillbot said:


> But... then you have to consider the debate of, is it illegal for me to use an illegal copy of a program that I own (kontakt) in order to play samples that I also own. Of course it's illegal... but yet, I'm still not using any software that I haven't paid for.


Interesting point. I honestly can't disagree with this logic... If you used it strictly to maintain products you legitimately own licenses for, AFAIC ethics arguments are pretty much moot... Kind of ridiculous we've reached a point where its hard to argue against using a piece of cracked software. 


lastmessiah said:


> I see your point but it still amounts to a minor inconvenience. You bounce the projects that use these sounds to audio or you make whatever midi edits you need to before deactivation, and then you move on.
> 
> Maybe there's no good reason for NI to deactivate them in the first place, but just about everything in the world happens for no good reason. Companies will make broad sweeping changes to their customer facing policies and there's not much you or I can do about it. I'd rather just shrug my shoulders and "out with the old" than invest in futile gestures of outrage.


All arguments about this only being a_ minor inconvenience_ end with Charlie's point in the post below.





__





NI will no longer activate discontinued products from May 31st (NOW FIXED]


I will go absolutely f-ing bananas if I can't keep on using my EWQLSO in kontakt. I've tailored the patches and some of them are very, very well used.




vi-control.net


----------



## kitekrazy (Mar 10, 2020)

chillbot said:


> If there is that much of a need, couldn't something come along to fill the void? A kontakt-player-player? I mean G-Player is great and I use it every day, and it didn't come out until after Giga went under.



I have some of those old GVIs from Sonivox that won't even install.


----------



## Robo Rivard (Mar 10, 2020)

It's ironic to think that when I'll change computer, I won't be able to use my EW libraries, but my whole collection of AKAI CDs will still be fully usable.


----------



## MartinH. (Mar 10, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> Continually breaking compatibility with older standards has rarely worked out in a way that benefits the consumer. It seems to only benefit Apple and Apple's bank account (see: selling useless accessories, dongles, and adapters.)



100% with you on the apple stuff! 

Regarding NI, have you tried talking to them directly? I'd hope maybe they are willing to listen to their businesspartners a little more than to us mere consumers.




Quasar said:


> I think we generally see these issues in a similar way and are on the same side, but I disagree here. The problem with using or not using hperbole, or "emotionally charged" terms is that there is always a hypocritical double-standard at work. It's perfectly socially acceptable in the mainstream culture to call an impovershed street criminal or a teenage software pirate a "scumbag" or whatever, but whenever it's white collar crime perpetrated by a higher socioeconomic class we always have to be very careful to maintain a tone of respect. Fuck all of that...



I can respect that point of view!


----------



## Wally Garten (Mar 10, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Freedom isn't a good thing, true freedom david, is lack of all law - in which anyone could (and would) show up to your house while you're sleeping, hatchet you and your family, and take all of your things instead of working for them.



I mean, to be fair, breaking into a house and hatcheting people takes SOME work....


----------



## gsilbers (Mar 10, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> Continually breaking compatibility with older standards has rarely worked out in a way that benefits the consumer. It seems to only benefit Apple and Apple's bank account (see: selling useless accessories, dongles, and adapters.)




Apple might also push these updates that then create a small ecosystem for develoeprs like Waves WUP and also the subscirption model in a way. 
In other words, planned obsolescence on both their end and the devleoper end. but yes... the consumer 
thinks its getting something in return like security and better features.


----------



## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> 100% with you on the apple stuff!
> 
> Regarding NI, have you tried talking to them directly? I'd hope maybe they are willing to listen to their businesspartners a little more than to us mere consumers.
> 
> ...


LOL it was Apple, specifically, with their locked-down memory sticks & SSDs, and overpriced, ever-changing proprietary ports & accessories that caused me to start using the phrase predatory obsolescence to begin with...

...But the thing is, how we frame the language has a dramatic impact on how we perceive things. For instance, a prosecutor in a trial may call something an "evil act" while the defense attorney calls it an "unfortunate decision" because she knows that the latter phrase will evoke an entirely different and more sympathetic interpretive response. IMHO what NI is doing needs to be called out without euphonious obfuscation.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

a few of my old libraries are included in this list. I think my solution will be to grab the samples from the kontakt libraries and use something like sample robot to capture samples from FM7 and the like and just create some new EXS24 instruments in logic or Studio One from them. I think the East West stuff is already in wav format or can be easily converted to is, so I can make some decent EXS24 alternatives from those.


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 10, 2020)

lastmessiah said:


> I see your point but it still amounts to a minor inconvenience. You bounce the projects that use these sounds to audio or you make whatever midi edits you need to before deactivation, and then you move on.
> 
> Maybe there's no good reason for NI to deactivate them in the first place, but just about everything in the world happens for no good reason. Companies will make broad sweeping changes to their customer facing policies and there's not much you or I can do about it. I'd rather just shrug my shoulders and "out with the old" than invest in futile gestures of outrage.


It’s only futile if we do nothing. I have voiced my outrage here and to them directly. You do not get to tell me what I should and should not care about.

it is always the passionate group of people that does change the world.

Asking people to accept that what they paid for is now bricked isn’t right - did you not read the many posts by composers stating they still use these libraries actively? I am one of them. You cannot simply turn off someone’s product just because. Without compensation.

good for you that this is no big deal for you - it is for some here. Much more than a “minor inconvenience.”

I get where you’re coming from - but attitudes like this allow the companies to walk all over us.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing....


----------



## Iswhatitis (Mar 10, 2020)

KallumS said:


> There are emails going out from NI notifying people that from 31st May some products can no longer be activated.
> 
> From the email: "Nach dem 31. Mai wird es nicht mehr möglich sein, einige ältere und mittlerweile eingestellte Produkte zu registrieren. Dazu gehören u.a. Guitar Rig Version 1-2, Battery 1 und 2 sowie Komplete 2-4.
> Du kannst diese Produkte zwar weiterhin in deinen Projekten nutzen, die Erst- bzw. Neuinstallation ist nach dem Stichtag jedoch nicht mehr möglich."
> ...


NI tech support just really came their for me regarding one of these soon to be discontinued products, so I’m loving Ni right now 👍🙏🍀


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> It’s only futile if we do nothing. I have voiced my outrage here and to them directly. You do not get to tell me what I should and should not care about.
> 
> it is always the passionate group of people that does change the world.
> 
> ...



a bit hyperbolic but actually I think the warrantly of NI actually pretty much says that can simply turn off your product just because. The product is considered "As is". There is the earlier stated EULA clause that requires NI to provide an active license, when an authorization key is not available, but this is a pretty murky area.


----------



## Sean J (Mar 10, 2020)

Quasar said:


> predatory obsolescence
> 
> ...how we frame the language has a dramatic impact on how we perceive things. For instance, a prosecutor in a trial may call something an "evil act" while the defense attorney calls it an "unfortunate decision" because she knows that the latter phrase will evoke an entirely different and more sympathetic interpretive response. IMHO what NI is doing needs to be called out without euphonious obfuscation.



I love your term. Not that it describes all situations. I just hate the business practice. If you discontinue a product, then remove the requirement to activate it in the first place and make it a free product on a legacy download page. At very least, don't burn people's options. This is why I save installers and backup drives. 100% up-time.


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## d.healey (Mar 10, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> im essentially investing into an ecosystem that I want to continue.


But one that is guaranteed to end... whereas free software is endless as long as at least one individual is willing to maintain it.



> Would you make the same argument for your personal automobile? Having a key is frustrating, and prevents me from even using my vehicle if I don't have it. However it also prevents others from using it.


I don't agree with this analogy.

If I buy a car outright I am free to lend, sell, or give it to someone else. There is no license restriction that allows the manufacturer to remotely disable the car (might be possible with a Tesla!).

The car key is not equivalent to DRM. DRM is designed to restrict users for the benefit of a developer. It's like the salesman holding onto the key and you have to ask him to let you in and start the engine whenever you need to use the car.

A car key is there to benefit the user at the cost of some slight inconvenience. If you want to remove the locks on your car I'm sure you can find an auto-mechanic/electrician to help you out.

Physical objects have totally different properties to software. If it was possible to duplicate physical objects in the same way it's possible to duplicate software then maybe we'd see DRM for cars.

You might enjoy this:





> You might not see it as a personal loss because if somebody else pirates a library I paid for - it's not taking the library away from me... however it is: dampening the developers freedom and resources to improve and support that product, create future installations of similar minded products, and also devaluing the product I own.


Software without DRM should be far more valuable, not less. Unless you place a negative value on your freedom. Boohoo to to the developer if they can't maintain their business or keep their shareholders happy, it's not a justification to restrict users.

Commercial software, whether free or proprietary comes with additional customer benefits usually not provided by non-commercial software. These include fast and secure downloads/updates/bug fixes/customer support/loyalty discounts, etc. If you get a copy without paying you miss out on these benefits. Such benefits are especially important to professionals and hobbyists who make up the majority of the sample library customer base.

I bet you have bought software that is also available illegally. Why do you buy it instead of just downloading it... the reasons are that you want to support developers, you feel it's the right thing to do, and you want the benefits I listed above. So even without the DRM you'd still make your purchase. You did the right thing, for the right reasons, and the DRM which hasn't helped you is about to screw you.



> Freedom isn't a good thing, true freedom david, is lack of all law





> Freedom sounds cool on paper, but a law is a transaction in which you give up a freedom in exchange for a security.


Exactly, as a society we have collectively agreed to trade away some freedoms in the form of laws. This mostly democratic trade gives us benefits in exchange for freedoms that we either can't exercise or that provide a greater overall benefit to society.

However, personal freedom on a smaller scale means having control over the activities you do in your life. If those activities involve a computer program you need to have control over that program. The developer should not have control over you and your activities.



> Are you a tyrant for making it harder for people to steal your stuff?


Sharing is not stealing. It's copyright infringement. And copyright laws are a whole other mess.



> You use a serial system for Sofia right?


No. My software is totally liberated.

The only justifiable serial key system I'm aware of is one that gives users access to additional content/updates/support on a subscription basis. It must be independent of the main software, meaning that if you cancel your subscription the software isn't changed in any way and continues to work as it did before. You'd just lose access to whatever future content the subscription provides. Such a system benefits users and developers and no-one is restricted. This is the model used by Wordpress, one of the most successful commercial free software projects.



> I hate to sound overly hyperbolic here, but as soon as you bring "natural rights" into a discussion about people literally trying to protect their own "crops" it gets silly.


The software isn't hurt by being shared, it doesn't need protecting. You might have noticed DRM doesn't prevent most software being shared. It's quite easy to download many Kontakt libraries illegally. The DRM that you are told is there to prevent that from happening is about to screw all of you when NI pulls the plug. And you want to support that...

Developers are not kings. They are servants. You pay them, they should respect you. The one bad apple attitude isn't acceptable.


----------



## dzilizzi (Mar 10, 2020)

Well I will wait and see if they provide users with some kind of key to make it usable. If they do, that will be great. Otherwise, we should all be concerned for the future of our libraries.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Well I will wait and see if they provide users with some kind of key to make it usable. If they do, that will be great. Otherwise, we should all be concerned for the future of our libraries.



regardless, you should be worried about the future of your libraries.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 10, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> regardless, you should be worried about the future of your libraries.


Well, less than an Apple user. 

But at some point everything will quit working. Though I hope I can still afford new libraries.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 10, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Well, less than an Apple user.
> 
> But at some point everything will quit working. Though I hope I can still afford new libraries.



lol, I can only speak to my own experience, but Catalina only broke like 20 apps I've not used in years, and only a few were music apps. This update for NI will kill some east west and london solo strings for me...but if you have the samples, you can make it work out.


----------



## Sean J (Mar 10, 2020)

d.healey said:


> This is the model used by Wordpress, one of the most successful commercial free software projects.



Always loved that I could buy a WP site template and it would always at least work, even if I chose to not pay to follow every last trend. I avoid subscriptions as much as possible. I also like installers like Filmora. It has a serial key that isn't machine-based and can be activated entirely offline. You buy it once and even if the company goes under, you still have what you paid for.

I don't see devs as big bad evil giants, but we're all human. People do things out of fear of not making money down the road. Well, I choose software based on what will keep working down the road. lol


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## JohnG (Mar 10, 2020)

My copy of Microsoft Word for Macintosh doesn't work anymore. Rats.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 10, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> lol, I can only speak to my own experience, but Catalina only broke like 20 apps I've not used in years, and only a few were music apps. This update for NI will kill some east west and london solo strings for me...but if you have the samples, you can make it work out.


And this is why I'm still a PC. Every time I think about switching to Apple, and I've done it often, they do something stupid and remind me why I'm still on PC.


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 10, 2020)

Quasar said:


> IMHO what NI is doing needs to be called out without euphonious obfuscation.


So, cacophonous clarity?


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 10, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> NI tech support just really came their for me regarding one of these soon to be discontinued products, so I’m loving Ni right now 👍🙏🍀


Oh? Do tell...


----------



## dpasdernick (Mar 10, 2020)

Gee Bob, the date started off fine and then she discontinued my Eastwest Gold Pro XP. 

Native Instruments. Reconsider this. You are making one big mistake here.


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## Iswhatitis (Mar 10, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Oh? Do tell...


For months I was not able to get the Galaxy Steinway 5.1 to install thru Native Access. NI tech support really showed patience and persistence trying every thing we could think of till finally they solved it and voila everything works perfectly!! Great work!! I’m very impressed with NI tech support 👍👏


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## Quasar (Mar 10, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> For months I was not able to get the Galaxy Steinway 5.1 to install thru Native Access. NI tech support really showed patience and persistence trying every thing we could think of till finally they solved it and voila everything works perfectly!! Great work!! I’m very impressed with NI tech support 👍👏


It only took _months_ to get it installed? Wow!... But glad you got it sorted...


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## kitekrazy (Mar 10, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Well I will wait and see if they provide users with some kind of key to make it usable. If they do, that will be great. Otherwise, we should all be concerned for the future of our libraries.



I would think former Gigastudio users would be use to this. I had GS4 for a month and they dropped it. Nothing from TheScam like a coupon to buy their hardware. I had a Yamaha softsynth no longer supported after XP and won't install on Windows anymore. Unfortunately it's the risk we take with computer related stuff.


----------



## Iswhatitis (Mar 10, 2020)

Quasar said:


> It only took _months_ to get it installed? Wow!... But glad you got it sorted...


It was mostly my fault, they would have fixed it faster if I replied to them quicker.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 10, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> It was mostly my fault, they would have fixed it faster if I replied to them quicker.


the irony being, after may 31st you won't be able to reinstall it anyways


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

chillbot said:


> is it illegal for me to use an illegal copy of a program that I own (kontakt) in order to play samples that I also own.



In Germany at least, it is legal to use pirated software if the original is not possible to authorize anymore.



gsilbers said:


> A tech that doesnt seem it was necesary for massive x (debatable of course)



It was definitely necessary because it allows for lower CPU usage and more number crunching/higher quality DSP at lower CPU cost. It also existed for at least 7 years now.
This is absolutely not debatable.



rrichard63 said:


> Do you have a link to this EULA? It's not displayed when you install Native Access.



It's in Documentation folder where NA is installed.



Quasar said:


> we always have to be very careful to maintain a tone of respect. Fuck all of that...



If you want to be taken seriously, then yes. Maintain a tone that is not "fuck all of that".


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 11, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> In Germany at least, it is legal to use pirated software if the original is not possible to authorize anymore.



If I recall part of NI's EULA seems to allow manipulation of the software/samples to a degree for discontinued software.


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> use something like sample robot to capture samples from FM7



You don't need to do that. FM8 sounds exactly the same as FM7 but has extra features. Patches from FM7 load just fine in FM8 IIRC. All you need to do is replace FM7 instances with FM8 in your projects.


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## Satorious (Mar 11, 2020)

I've not read all of this thread (I get the gist). I'm as incensed as everybody else - especially as I was planning to set up a new machine soon. Perhaps the answer is to stop buying all these Kontakt Player instruments which tie you down and start supporting more developers who develop instruments for the full version (there are plenty of nice ones out there)?


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 11, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> You don't need to do that. FM8 sounds exactly the same as FM7 but has extra features. Patches from FM7 load just fine in FM8 IIRC. All you need to do is replace FM7 instances with FM8 in your projects.



yeah I realized my mistake. its been so long since I used the FM series i just realized I have FM8 too, so no need there. Seems that most of NI's discontinued options have new options available. the third party libraries are the questionable ones. The fact they announced both together is probably adding to the confusion.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

Well, B4, Pro-53, Spektral Delay and Vokator have no replacements unfortunately...


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## TomislavEP (Mar 11, 2020)

Personally, I don't have anything on this list, but I completely understand the disappointment and even anger of those who do. Especially if this move from NI means that they can't use these products anymore, which could be a real issue in regards to backward compatibility. Then, there is also a question of money invested.

I can understand that large developers cannot afford themselves to support complex software like OS, DAW and some VI's forever, but I've never condoned pulling some perfectly fine, once even groundbreaking products from the market when talking about sample libraries. Yes, I mean Spitfire Audio, amongst the others.


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## Dietz (Mar 11, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Spektral Delay


!!!

Still one of my secret weapons for _totally_ whacked soundscapes.


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## colony nofi (Mar 11, 2020)

Dietz said:


> !!!
> 
> Still one of my secret weapons for _totally_ whacked soundscapes.


Oh I will miss this one too.
(I will miss more than just this, but you hit an emotional nerve! Damn it is a cool plugin....)


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## Uiroo (Mar 11, 2020)

colony nofi said:


> Oh I will miss this one too.
> (I will miss more than just this, but you hit an emotional nerve! Damn it is a cool plugin....)


Yeah, great, now I want it, damn!


----------



## oboemaroni (Mar 11, 2020)

Spektral Delay is the one I can't do without too - I have the Melda Spectral Delay, just not as good! Also would hate to lose FM7, Pro 53 and the old Kontakts as I've loads of old projects that will be lost without them...


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## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

FM8 easily replaces FM7. Before May 31st you can open all your projects and update instances with FM8 instead. Ditto if you still have any projects with old Kontakts.


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## sin(x) (Mar 11, 2020)

I urge everyone concerned to make their voice heard to NI directly, be it in their forums, or their support lines. Just be respectful.

Here's what I posted on their forum:



> Let me add my voice to the choir of people for whom this feels like a kick in the face.
> 
> Over the 15 years I've been working as a full-time composer, I've put a number somewhere on the verge between the 5- and 6-figure range into software and samples; a large chunk of that was spent on third-party Kontakt libraries and NI products. Over the past years of VI developers branching out to their own ever more proprietary and locked-down platforms, I have always been making a point of favoring Kontakt-based alternatives. For one thing, they fit better into my workflow; but a big part of that decision was also that it just seemed safer to bank on NI keeping their ecosystem available and reliable, in short, keeping my stuff running – and thus my investments safe – indefinitely.
> 
> ...


----------



## gamma-ut (Mar 11, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> I don't know how this is legal either.
> 
> Boycotts won't work imo. Legal threats might though?



It's legal. The redress, which isn't much, is that under the DMCA you have the right to reverse engineer the copy protection to make it work on a system you own. That's not exactly helpful but that's how the law typically looks at it. 

From a practical PoV, I don't see why NI is unable to provide some sort of server backend to keep Service Center alive on the server end even if the company won't offer any technical support so that if you've got a machine that runs XP or Snow Leopard, the front-end Service Center continues to run. At this stage, they probably wouldn't even have to run licence checks, just say "yeah, whatever" to any request that comes in on a licence code that passes the checksum (I assume there is a checksum embedded in these things).


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## gamma-ut (Mar 11, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> FM8 easily replaces FM7. Before May 31st you can open all your projects and update instances with FM8 instead. *Ditto if you still have any projects with old Kontakts.*



...but not if they use the old EW libraries or the others that never transferred to Native Access.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

You can at least convert Kompakt/Intakt instances to Kontakt. Your projects will open at least with those libraries in demo mode, instead of not at all.


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## Dietz (Mar 11, 2020)

oboemaroni said:


> Spektral Delay is the one I can't do without too - I have the Melda Spectral Delay, just not as good!


Lots of respect for Melda , but NI's old Spectral Delay plays in a different league.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 11, 2020)

What about Vital Arts Plectrum?
I’ve had this since GSIF 2.65 and always transfer the files or use the original CDs?
It’s a great instrument, Hope it isn’t getting whacked.
Chris Hein Horns 1/1.5 I still have but use the most recent.
If NI dissed CHH 2 I’d go on a rampage.

Be different if they provided better instruments but I think their own instruments suck.
Im sure they know this. I always thought it was to force people into buying 3rd Party products.

Those recent “synths” that came with Kontakt 6 were so bad they should be retracted from upgrades.


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> Those recent “synths” that came with Kontakt 6 were so bad they should be retracted from upgrades.



They are actually doing pretty good in the market, so...


----------



## Peter Williams (Mar 11, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> If I recall part of NI's EULA seems to allow manipulation of the software/samples to a degree for discontinued software.


I could really use a "how to" primer to do anything like that. In the meantime, I guess I'll order an eye patch and a cutlass, along with the face masks.


----------



## JaJa (Mar 11, 2020)

What an awful news.
I don't have any on the list, but seems it's going to happened to me someday.
Feel like getting robbed since I thought I owned those products when purchased.


----------



## nolotrippen (Mar 11, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> It's legal. The redress, which isn't much, is that under the DMCA you have the right to reverse engineer the copy protection to make it work on a system you own. That's not exactly helpful but that's how the law typically looks at it.
> 
> From a practical PoV, I don't see why NI is unable to provide some sort of server backend to keep Service Center alive on the server end even if the company won't offer any technical support so that if you've got a machine that runs XP or Snow Leopard, the front-end Service Center continues to run. At this stage, they probably wouldn't even have to run licence checks, just say "yeah, whatever" to any request that comes in on a licence code that passes the checksum (I assume there is a checksum embedded in these things).


I think their thinking is: If it ain't broke, break it.


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

Except it was broken on the back-end side, a lot.


----------



## rrichard63 (Mar 11, 2020)

Do we know whether NI's published list of affected products is complete? Could there be others that are only discovered when someone's computer dies and they try to reinstall a beloved, and/or commercially necessary, library that can no longer be authorized?


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

It's complete.


----------



## curtisschweitzer (Mar 11, 2020)

ohernie said:


> Yes, I know there could be a big performance hit, but ... is encapsulation inside a virtual machine a possibility?



Given that these are older libraries, I would think this is possible-- maybe with VE Pro on the virtual network adaptor. Added bonus of being able to backup a perfectly working version of these instruments by doing a machine snapshot that could be moved wherever you'd need it.

It seems like a big PITA, but I think it might be the only way to perfectly guarantee that a copy activated between now and May 31st was working "forever". (Read: as long as that snapshot could still run)


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## KallumS (Mar 11, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> It's komplete.



FTFY


----------



## Technostica (Mar 11, 2020)

NI have responded to this again on their forums. 
They are being a bit more forthcoming and investigating other options. 








NI stop activations on legacy libraries


But doesn't Zero-G still sell those Ian Boddy libraries ( I have some of them)? Or are that different versions? They are not Kontakt Player/Kompakt...




www.native-instruments.com


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## Matt_NI (Mar 11, 2020)

Hey Everyone, 

Matt here from NI.

I'm slowly trying to address everyone on all the platforms.We sincerely appreciate all the feedback about this and want to directly engage with you all about it. 
As a result of everyone's feedback, we updated our end of life article with some additional information but also went back to discuss this internally. As you would be able to read at the bottom of the page, we will spend more time investigating this topic and look into possible workaround to address the end of life of our old activation mechanisms.
https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... 0006053397

I hope this helps clarify a few elements and happy to answer more on here directly


----------



## ohernie (Mar 11, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> Matt here from NI.
> 
> As a result of everyone's feedback, we updated our end of life article with some additional information but also went back to discuss this internally.



Thanks - sorry, but got to say it:

*DUH!*


----------



## Alex Fraser (Mar 11, 2020)

Ah, poor Catalina. Thrown under the bus yet again. 😅


----------



## Matt_NI (Mar 11, 2020)

ohernie said:


> Thanks - sorry, but got to say it:
> 
> *DUH!*



Fair play but as you can imagine there is a lot of different perspective on this issue (internally or even online). We will definitely learn from this.


----------



## ohernie (Mar 11, 2020)

I don't have time right now to write a proper response. What I can say is: No matter what technical issues created this situation, the way your company handled the situation has permanently and negatively changed the way we look at VI purchases and has caused a LOT of pointless anxiety.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 11, 2020)

ohernie said:


> I don't have time right now to right a proper response. What I can say is: No matter what technical issues created this situation, the way your company handled the situation has permanently and negatively changed the way we look at VI purchases and has caused a LOT of pointless anxiety.



There's also not a lot of different perspectives (as noted by NI)...only two; NI's negligence and the customers getting shafted. When I upgrade my Mac rig summer, looks like I'm officially screwed as I won't be able to reinstall all the libraries I own that fall under the redundancy category. Nice.


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

Well, maybe not, because workarounds are being investigated, as stated in the updated knowledgebase article...


----------



## Guy Rowland (Mar 11, 2020)

ohernie said:


> I don't have time right now to write a proper response. What I can say is: No matter what technical issues created this situation, the way your company handled the situation has permanently and negatively changed the way we look at VI purchases and has caused a LOT of pointless anxiety.



I think we have to hold fire on that. It's been alarming for sure, but if NI do the right thing here and come up with a better solution it will restore a lot of faith in them for me (and perhaps by extension the industry in general).

I now get the technical reasons why they made a bad decision, and I can well imagine the internal pressure on them to do this. I can't remember NI ever changing course after delivering public bad news, but it looks like that's what they want to do here. That would go a long way for me in believing the company does listen to their customers.


----------



## ohernie (Mar 11, 2020)

As I see it, the "bad decision" wasn't cancelling the libraries. That could indeed be forced on them by technical "progress". The bad decision was doing it via edict, without any form of explanation or consideration of how it would affect customers, how it would affect existing projects, what measures customers would have to take to make up for the missing libraries and how customers would respond. This is a wonderful, if salty, forum, dedicated to virtual instruments. They should have used it.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Mar 11, 2020)

ohernie said:


> As I see it, the "bad decision" wasn't cancelling the libraries. That could indeed be forced on them by technical "progress". The bad decision was doing it via edict, without any form of explanation or consideration of how it would effect customers, how it would effect existing projects, what measures customers would have to take to make up for the missing libraries and how customers would respond. This is a wonderful, if salty, forum, dedicated to virtual instruments. They should have used it.



Oh I agree. Not a good sign of a healthy corporate culture imo. But given that it happened, far better to row back and rethink than dig heels in or - worse - not even enter into any dialogue at all.

I don't want to start singing Kumbayah just yet, but it might just turn out to be a useful internal case of how to handle these things better in future. I'd say NI doesn't have a great relationship with Komplete customers (can't speak for the other sides of the business), if this helps readdress that then hooray.


----------



## Quasar (Mar 11, 2020)

ohernie said:


> As I see it, the "bad decision" wasn't cancelling the libraries. That could indeed be forced on them by technical "progress". The bad decision was doing it via edict, without any form of explanation or consideration of how it would effect customers, how it would effect existing projects, what measures customers would have to take to make up for the missing libraries and how customers would respond. This is a wonderful, if salty, forum, dedicated to virtual instruments. They should have used it.


Except for style points or something, I see the method of communication as trivial, and not what matters. IMHO the "bad decision" was to arbitrarily and artificially end the life of the libraries because they don't conform their new DRM scheme. If, on the other hand, they simply dropped support for legacy stuff when such time comes as they _naturally_ won't work anymore due to hardware and software advancements, that would be fine.


----------



## Matt_NI (Mar 11, 2020)

ohernie said:


> As I see it, the "bad decision" wasn't cancelling the libraries. That could indeed be forced on them by technical "progress". The bad decision was doing it via edict, without any form of explanation or consideration of how it would effect customers, how it would effect existing projects, what measures customers would have to take to make up for the missing libraries and how customers would respond. This is a wonderful, if salty, forum, dedicated to virtual instruments. They should have used it.



I certainly agree and see now that there was better ways to address this topic from the start. I also totally see why we need to be closer to the users on forum such as VI and get different perspective on such matters.


----------



## PaulieDC (Mar 11, 2020)

So NI says in their terms:


> As of May 31, 2020, a range of legacy products... will be discontinued. _This means that already installed and activated products can still be used without limitation_, but it is no longer possible to reinstall or reactivate any of these products on a new computer.



Since I'm newer at this there's nothing on the list that affects my rookie world. But the IT geek in me immediately thought of what others could do... I would say to clone the drives on your current working PC or Mac (with Acronis TrueImage or something like that), so you can always restore the hard drive image(s) if anything fails. That preserves activations. Acronis will restore even if you have to swap out a legacy motherboard, etc... you don't have to reinstall Windows or anything else when ghosting a hard drive and then restoring it. External hard drives to store the images are pretty cheap these days, even in the 5-10TB range, because mechanical drives are now just considered archive storage. THEN when you decide to build or buy a new 43¼-core i13 machine or fully Loaded MacPro ($60K, I worked one up on the site for fun), just use your old as a slave, with those libraries. It's kind of a big fuss, but a few of you mentioned ongoing movie scores where you need to maintain legacy VI libraries, so this is ONE way, to try and keep what you have.

I haven't read through all the pages so my apologies if someone already posted some similar solutions!


----------



## Matt_NI (Mar 11, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> I think we have to hold fire on that. It's been alarming for sure, but if NI do the right thing here and come up with a better solution it will restore a lot of faith in them for me (and perhaps by extension the industry in general).
> 
> I now get the technical reasons why they made a bad decision, and I can well imagine the internal pressure on them to do this. I can't remember NI ever changing course after delivering public bad news, but it looks like that's what they want to do here. That would go a long way for me in believing the company does listen to their customers.



Thanks for this super valuable feedback! 
I also believe that's a great opportunity for us to try and do right despite the bad start.


----------



## sin(x) (Mar 11, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> I would say to clone the drives on your current working PC or Mac (with Acronis TrueImage or something like that), so you can always restore the hard drive image(s) if anything fails.



Others have suggested that. Won't help with new systems or hardware changes since the newer NI scheme binds authorizations to hardware component IDs, and thus will become deauthorized.


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## Stringtree (Mar 11, 2020)

This thread had a lot of value. I don't care if I have to sing a verse of Kumbaya. The name derives from "Come By Here." And guess what, an answer came. Somebody came by here and quelled the rabble with authentic information. The original plan might be modified to include the concerns raised from each home and studio here on VI-Control, each musical person who has at least twice been awed by good NI products.

Maybe somebody thought nobody uses this stuff anymore? Yes, lots.

I'm on the side of, "thanks" for some answers. Again, I think it's a framework for the future rather than an indemnification of the past. This situation is in flux. A few days. Spektral Delay? B4? Absynth 3? EWQLSO Kontakt versions? Maybe it was a trial balloon to see if anybody cared. How much did you care? I have some steak in the fire on this one. I'm sort of miffed, but then the sun came out a little.

Yes, we do. We saw quality and we bought it. Please, NI, remember that we were some of the first to take a chance.

These vibey beauties that NI had, tines, drawbars, synths, pianos. It was the first thing that did it for me for as much as I could afford on stage. That was a really elegant solution. It always sounded great. 

Hope here. This looks to be a good discussion.

Greg


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## DaddyO (Mar 11, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> There is a saying in German that goes like this: "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall" (Arrogance comes before a fall).



That saying goes clear back the biblical book of Proverbs, chapter 3, verse 18:

" Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall."


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## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> Maybe somebody thought nobody uses this stuff anymore? Yes, lots.



Depends on how you define "lots". I saw the numbers and it might not be as many people as you think.



Stringtree said:


> Absynth 3?



Any Absynth 3 patches work just fine in Absynth 4 or 5... in fact Absynth 5 comes with all patches from prior Absynth versions...


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## rrichard63 (Mar 11, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> clone the drives on your current working PC or Mac (with Acronis TrueImage or something like that), so you can always restore the hard drive image(s) if anything fails. That preserves activations.


Maybe not. The experts are telling us that NI's activation codes use information about the hardware that is not captured in a disk image. For example, I believe that Intel CPU's have serial numbers embedded in the microcode. I don't know whether they are included in NI's activation codes but they would be if I were developing a DRM system.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 11, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Depends on how you define "lots". I saw the numbers and it might not be as many people as you think.


I bet those numbers are a tiny percentage of the NI userbase. Something we do a lot on this forum is forget we’re a niche in the wider music tech universe.


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## jcrosby (Mar 11, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> So NI says in their terms:
> I would say to clone the drives on your current working PC or Mac (with Acronis TrueImage or something like that), so you can always restore the hard drive image(s) if anything fails. That preserves activations. Acronis will restore even if you have to swap out a legacy motherboard, etc...



Unfortunately that's not the case. Most developers base activations on your _board serial number _AFAIK. (Different from your machine's generic serial number, and often not accessible to you as the user.)

I've cloned to new machines a good 4 or 5 times in the past 9-10 years. Machine-based activations never stick, (IME at least). _NI, Izotope, Acustica_, _IK Multimedia, iLok Machine-based Activations, ..._ the list goes on... All required re-activation every time. While I'm not crazy about being tethered to an iLok its one upside is you can move it to any machine as long as you keep the license on a physical key.

The short version is machine based activations require the same machine to work. This means while it's a good idea to clone a drive of your current config, it also means you should hang onto your old machine and run it as a legacy box unless you're willing to part with these libraries.


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## VMH (Mar 11, 2020)

I think NI is handling this pretty well after all. Thank you Matt for keeping us updated. Yes one could argue the whole thing shouldn't have happened at all in the first place, but then again things happen. I really don't want to believe they did this out of pure evilness or not caring about their customers. It would probably just have been more convenient for them to let all these old products go, maybe thinking people don't even use or care about them that much anymore. But people actually do, as we've now seen. And NI seems to be listening and trying to come up with a better solution. I think to us customers these things sometimes appear more simple than they actually are. We simply ask, "can't they just make it so we can keep reactivating our stuff". For NI I believe it's lot more complicated: how to do it, what's the cost, are there any risks involved, contracts to be taken into account, etc.

That being said I really hope they come up with a solution. I don't own or use any of the products on the list, but as a beginner composer I'd feel somewhat uncomfortable to keep building my system around Kontakt knowing my libraries are only good for certain-yet-unknown time period. IMO it also makes buying a perpetual licence seem more like a subscription model, which is kinda funny (but not really). On the other hand I'm not sure why it bothers me that much. Do I really believe I'm able (or willing) to use the libraries I buy today in 2040?


----------



## Quasar (Mar 11, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> I certainly agree and see now that there was better ways to address this topic from the start. I also totally see why we need to be closer to the users on forum such as VI and get different perspective on such matters.



I disagree that this is important. NI has always been remote and opaque compared to small developers who hang out on forums and chat. But this was never a problem as long as NI's _actions_ were honorable. 

Two years ago in response to a direct query I was told in no uncertain terms that offline activation would continue to be supported for those products that were purchased when the rules of the old Service Center were in place. This promise is not being kept. Keeping one's promises is far more important than being "closer to users on forums" or "getting different perspectives." Communicating effectively about why you're doing the wrong thing is not the same as doing the right thing.


----------



## MartinH. (Mar 11, 2020)

VMH said:


> as a beginner composer I'd feel somewhat uncomfortable to keep building my system around Kontakt knowing my libraries are only good for certain-yet-unknown time period.



Just don't assume any of the proprietary players aren't under the same threat of DRM activation mechanisms getting abandoned in the future. If it uses DRM, it's a threat to your investment. The question isn't "if", it's "when" it's going to stop working for one reason or another.

The advantage with Kontakt imho is that (afaik) it's already cracked, and it's "single point of failure" for the DRM scheme, meaning you only need a cracked Kontakt to use all your libraries again vs. having to find cracked versions of each individual library. I'm thinking of events like NI going out of business or similar. And even with future OS incompatibilities and such, with just one very important app ruling an entire ecosystem, there's a chance that some reverse engineering wizards would go in and try fixing things even without the sourcecode.


----------



## jcrosby (Mar 11, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> I certainly agree and see now that there was better ways to address this topic from the start. I also totally see why we need to be closer to the users on forum such as VI and get different perspective on such matters.


The main issue is that the timetable is really un


Matt_NI said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> Matt here from NI.
> 
> ...


It's nice you chimed in here, I certainly appreciate seeing NI make an effort... (Especially with how toxic forums can be...)

The most obvious issue to me is the timetable. NI certainly could have opted to give a minimum of one year notice. I think that would go a long way to fan some of the inevitable flames.

The other issue, and it's a serious one AFAIC is the point Charlie Clouser raises in the 1st few pages. If you haven't read that you really should... Something like this has the ability to disrupt delivering to various film or TV franchises. For some people here this has far bigger consequences than just being an inconvenience.

And out of curiosity... Is this decision really partially tied to Catalina? If so this has some pretty huge implications for people tethered to macOS.

Hopefully you can relay some of the more consequential issues in this thread, like the one raised above, up the chain... And as I said, I think it'd go a long way for NI to consider the pushing the timetable back so people with real world gigs tied to these libraries have some time to figure out an alternative...


----------



## Quasar (Mar 11, 2020)

@jcrosby if I could offer an alternative POV to two things you posted above:

1) The timetable might be of practical relevance to some, but has nothing to do with the core ethical issue: the right to use the software for as long as our computers are able to run it. Losing a library solely because the developer is no longer willing to activate it is _never_ okay, regardless of whether the deadline is May 31st, 2020, 2025 or 3025.

2) Yes, there are some who are using some of the libraries for high-dollar, high-stake TV or film, and yes, this is a big deal for all concerned. It does not, however, in any way make it _more important_ that the developer honor the ethical obligation to allow a library to either be activated or else liberated from the need for activation. The right to use what one has paid for is _exactly the same_ for both the world-renowned professional and the most inept, clumsy amateur.


----------



## dzilizzi (Mar 11, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> The main issue is that the timetable is really un
> 
> It's nice you chimed in here, I certainly appreciate seeing NI make an effort... (Especially with how toxic forums can be...)
> 
> ...


This is when they will quit supporting new installations. I don't understand why that is an immediate issue for most people who use these libraries. If you aren't planning on getting a new computer, it isn't an issue for maybe years. And hopefully NI will provide a solution before then.


----------



## DaddyO (Mar 11, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I don't understand why that is an immediate issue for most people who use these libraries. If you aren't planning on getting a new computer, it isn't an issue for maybe years.



The fact that the immediate issue is for a subset of users (what percentage we have no way of knowing) doesn't make the issue unimportant. After all, a LOT of people in this field buy new computers every few years. Last year my MOBO died suddenly, and I had to rebuild my computer. We have examples above of active, busy, seemingly successful composers for whom this is an immediate issue. 

And perhaps the most important outcome of this issue COULD affect most users, the weakening of trust in the future reliability of what they have purchased. It is much harder to rebuild trust than to build it originally. How NI handles this will determine if they can shore up what trust they have built, or they will face the daunting alternative of rebuilding trust.


----------



## JPQ (Mar 11, 2020)

Sad also for Nostalgia set. but is really bad thing. btw i dont own any of these but i talk one what i thinked getting. i feel i can luckily get few sounds what i mean form other ways.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Mar 11, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> And out of curiosity... Is this decision really partially tied to Catalina? If so this has some pretty huge implications for people tethered to macOS.


Well, it was mentioned more than once in the NI forum post. Catalina doubles down on security, so if Service Centre is wanting access to deeper level hardware data etc, that's where the block is. Maybe. I'm not a programmer, so take this as amateur mulling.

Reading between the lines, it looks like NI aren't really straying from the original plan too much. Key is the term "work around." Perhaps this will be some sort of "legacy" product registration service, with future activations done directly via email in tandem with NI support.


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 11, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> I certainly agree and see now that there was better ways to address this topic from the start. I also totally see why we need to be closer to the users on forum such as VI and get different perspective on such matters.


Refreshing.

We're your lifeblood. We want you to succeed. Win-win.


----------



## dzilizzi (Mar 11, 2020)

DaddyO said:


> The fact that the immediate issue is for a subset of users (what percentage we have no way of knowing) doesn't make the issue unimportant. After all, a LOT of people in this field buy new computers every few years. Last year my MOBO died suddenly, and I had to rebuild my computer. We have examples above of active, busy, seemingly successful composers for whom this is an immediate issue.
> 
> And perhaps the most important outcome of this issue COULD affect most users, the weakening of trust in the future reliability of what they have purchased. It is much harder to rebuild trust than to build it originally. How NI handles this will determine if they can shore up what trust they have built, or they will face the daunting alternative of rebuilding trust.


The comment was related to a comment that complained about the short time frame until NI would no longer support authorizing these libraries. I was just saying it isn't a short time if you have no plans on changing your system any time soon. Most commercial studios run the same systems for years because changing the computer means downtime they can't afford. So I don't understand why this is an issue. Especially not if NI provides a fix. 

Now that said, I don't own any of these libraries (though I would have loved to have the EW ones) and I am concerned about the future libraries I do own, since Kontakt is my go to sample player. I'm waiting to see if NI follows their EULA and provides some sort of license key to allow these libraries to work. I doubt they can remove the DRM from non NI libraries. If they do, I won't worry so much about it.


----------



## tmhuud (Mar 11, 2020)

“Something like this has the ability to disrupt delivering to various film or TV franchises. For some people here this has far bigger consequences than just being an inconvenience.”

This.


----------



## Mark Schmieder (Mar 11, 2020)

Looking on the bright side, maybe Native Access will at least stop marking such products as in need of being installed.  On macOS, I have tried every workaround imaginable, and spent hours to no avail, finally giving up a month ago.

Also this will make it more obvious to us, when we have forgotten to delete a superseded product.


----------



## PaulieDC (Mar 11, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> For example, I believe that Intel CPU's have serial numbers embedded in the microcode. I don't know whether they are included in NI's activation codes but they would be if I were developing a DRM system.


They do, it's a GUID that gets created based on the CPU/Mobo combo. Every restore I've ever done, such as someone wanting their hard drive in their laptop swapped out with a new SSD, has resulted in the machine firing right back up and all software like Office, etc, working. HOWEVER, I admit I haven't done a restore to NI stuff, so if they have worked in DRM to that level, then I guess there's a chance it wouldn't work. TrueImage has a way around the different mobo issue during the restore process, and Windows is still activated after the restore with the same CPU in a new Mobo. If NI takes it farther than _ that, _then OK, yeah, NI isn't being very nice.


----------



## PaulieDC (Mar 11, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Unfortunately that's not the case. Most developers base activations on your _board serial number _AFAIK. (Different from your machine's generic serial number, and often not accessible to you as the user.)
> 
> I've cloned to new machines a good 4 or 5 times in the past 9-10 years. Machine-based activations never stick, (IME at least). _NI, Izotope, Acustica_, _IK Multimedia, iLok Machine-based Activations, ..._ the list goes on... All required re-activation every time. While I'm not crazy about being tethered to an iLok its one upside is you can move it to any machine as long as you keep the license on a physical key.
> 
> The short version is machine based activations require the same machine to work. This means while it's a good idea to clone a drive of your current config, it also means you should hang onto your old machine and run it as a legacy box unless you're willing to part with these libraries.



Valid point. I replied to another reply of the same nature here. The concept should be tested but that's no a simple task.


----------



## Matt_NI (Mar 12, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I bet those numbers are a tiny percentage of the NI userbase. Something we do a lot on this forum is forget we’re a niche in the wider music tech universe.



Yes I think that's where the confusion started I would think. We relied on numbers rather than asking communities. The number of activation is quite small and partners also mentioned that these products were all end of life. 
What we should have done is reach out to communities such as VI and engage in an honest conversation about the difficulties we are facing and how we can find a suitable solution for everybody.


----------



## jcrosby (Mar 12, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Well, it was mentioned more than once in the NI forum post. Catalina doubles down on security, so if Service Centre is wanting access to deeper level hardware data etc, that's where the block is. Maybe. I'm not a programmer, so take this as amateur mulling.
> 
> Reading between the lines, it looks like NI aren't really straying from the original plan too much. Key is the term "work around." Perhaps this will be some sort of "legacy" product registration service, with future activations done directly via email in tandem with NI support.


Fair point... Well, at least I know to focus my angst where it actually seems appropriate; Apple... Catalina's raised a ton of concerns for me about longevity since day one. And since I anticipate people quoting this out of context I'm placing this here now... _Security_'s fine; the security argument however doesn't have to _default_ to removing a users ability to define which of these two take higher priority.... (But its Apple so you know...)


----------



## Matt_NI (Mar 12, 2020)

VMH said:


> I think NI is handling this pretty well after all. Thank you Matt for keeping us updated. Yes one could argue the whole thing shouldn't have happened at all in the first place, but then again things happen. I really don't want to believe they did this out of pure evilness or not caring about their customers. It would probably just have been more convenient for them to let all these old products go, maybe thinking people don't even use or care about them that much anymore. But people actually do, as we've now seen. And NI seems to be listening and trying to come up with a better solution. I think to us customers these things sometimes appear more simple than they actually are. We simply ask, "can't they just make it so we can keep reactivating our stuff". For NI I believe it's lot more complicated: how to do it, what's the cost, are there any risks involved, contracts to be taken into account, etc.
> 
> That being said I really hope they come up with a solution. I don't own or use any of the products on the list, but as a beginner composer I'd feel somewhat uncomfortable to keep building my system around Kontakt knowing my libraries are only good for certain-yet-unknown time period. IMO it also makes buying a perpetual licence seem more like a subscription model, which is kinda funny (but not really). On the other hand I'm not sure why it bothers me that much. Do I really believe I'm able (or willing) to use the libraries I buy today in 2040?



Appreciate the feedback! 

There is indeed a completely different perspective especially when it comes to the technical aspect from each side but we should be able to tackle that by being as transparent as possible. I think what we usually missing is actively engaging with you guys and offering more details than the more broad announcement we make. Good learning and hopefully we'll see more of that in the future.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 12, 2020)

Quasar said:


> I disagree that this is important. NI has always been remote and opaque compared to small developers who hang out on forums and chat. But this was never a problem as long as NI's _actions_ were honorable.
> 
> Two years ago in response to a direct query I was told in no uncertain terms that offline activation would continue to be supported for those products that were purchased when the rules of the old Service Center were in place. This promise is not being kept. Keeping one's promises is far more important than being "closer to users on forums" or "getting different perspectives." Communicating effectively about why you're doing the wrong thing is not the same as doing the right thing.



Yes I would disagree with that one. 
I understand historically we have been a bit more distant but I'm not sure the size of the organisation means that we cannot engage in healthy conversations especially about topics such as this one. Technology is changing and decision have to be changed, I think it would be naive for us to able to say what the landscape would be in say 15 years and how it would affect what we have done or say in the past. That's where transparency and communication is important. I'm not saying you will find us lurking around all the time but some topics need to be addressed.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 12, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> The main issue is that the timetable is really un
> 
> It's nice you chimed in here, I certainly appreciate seeing NI make an effort... (Especially with how toxic forums can be...)
> 
> ...



I agree the timetable is too short and this is something we are discussing internally again.

The issue is not particularly tied to Catalina even tho 10.15 introduced new issues and already messed up the activation of products that were working just fine with 10.14.
With that said, we are not gonna use Apple as a scapegoat since the topic was already being addressed before as we were struggling more with development. There is a lot we want to be able to do with Native Access, activation / deployment and some of our effort had to be rolled back already because of this old activation mechanisms. It was simply not possible not more forward anymore.


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## jcrosby (Mar 12, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> I agree the timetable is too short and this is something we are discussing internally again.
> 
> The issue is not particularly tied to Catalina even tho 10.15 introduced new issues and already messed up the activation of products that were working just fine with 10.14.
> With that said, we are not gonna use Apple as a scapegoat since the topic was already being addressed before as we were struggling more with development. There is a lot we want to be able to do with Native Access, activation / deployment and some of our effort had to be rolled back already because of this old activation mechanisms. It was simply not possible not more forward anymore.


Thanks Matt. Again, really appreciate you guys coming on here to discuss this... And glad to hear you guys are at least willing to explore it internally... Cheers.


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## sin(x) (Mar 12, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> I agree the timetable is too short and this is something we are discussing internally again.



I hope the response to the protest won't end up being a simple extension of the grace period. This is a systemic issue and as I wrote, once we know that the activation of older products is on the chopping block at _any_ point, these products are tainted for use in new productions and we'll have to assume others will follow in the future.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2020)

JPQ said:


> Sad also for Nostalgia set. but is really bad thing. btw i dont own any of these but i talk one what i thinked getting. i feel i can luckily get few sounds what i mean form other ways.



Zero-G still sells Nostalgia as regular open Kontakt library, so no worries there


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 12, 2020)

Matt deserves a raise lol


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## Matt_NI (Mar 12, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Matt deserves a raise lol



Screenshot - sent to manager


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## homie (Mar 12, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Screenshot - sent to manager



Hi Matt,

thanks for joining the discussion.

I've thousands of projects files that would be rendered semi broken/useless if i couldn't run my old libraries anymore. That's my main problem with your fade out "obsolete" software plan. One of the most important aspects of the Kontakt eco system should be to make it as future proof, compatbile and reliable as possible. To me it's crucial for future buying decisions to have trust in Native Instruments and their philosphy about these aspects.

As a side note i'm very sceptical about all those new custom player based libraries popping up everywhere. IMO this trend will bring more headaches (company going out of business, buggy software, multitude of protection schemes to handle) then anything imo. Too much risk and afford for too little to gain.

Have a nice day


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## homie (Mar 12, 2020)

Trying to replace VI's (as EvilDragon kindly suggested) in thousands of affected project files sounds unfortunately not like a solution to me. Impossible on many levels. I think software should make our lives easier not more complicated


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2020)

It's not impossible at all. It's very much possible, it just requires time. Pay a henchman to do it if you can't be bothered, but IMHO it must be done. It's far from ideal, BUT, if your projects contain Kompakt or Intakt based libraries, they should be moved into Kontakt instances *pronto!* I cannot overstate this enough! Kontakt is the one which will retain support and updates, but Kompakt and Intakt are DEAD. If you want to be able to open and edit your projects down the road, you should spend the time to get things into Kontakt.


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## homie (Mar 12, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> It's not impossible at all. It's very much possible, it just requires time. Pay a henchman to do it if you can't be bothered, but IMHO it must be done. It's far from ideal, BUT, if your projects contain Kompakt or Intakt based libraries, they should be moved into Kontakt instances *pronto!* I cannot overstate this enough! Kontakt is the one which will retain support and updates, but Kompakt and Intakt are DEAD. If you want to be able to open and edit your projects down the road, you should spend the time to get things into Kontakt.



You're certainly right. I fortunately never used Kompakt or Intakt. I started with battery 2 and kontakt 3 iirc. All my projects rely heavily on those two product lines.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2020)

OK so I would def suggest moving things to at least Battery 3, and very latest version of Kontakt, regardless. Spend the time, you will thank me later.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 12, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> OK so I would def suggest moving things to at least Battery 3, and very latest version of Kontakt, regardless. Spend the time, you will thank me later.



But here's the thing.....all of my old Intakt/Kompakt EW libraries are already activated (and used) inside Kontakt. Does this mean they will be safe?


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## Matt_NI (Mar 12, 2020)

Everyone, 
Sorry if I can't always get back to every individual message. Tomorrow I have a meeting about this again and will make sure to share additional findings.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> But here's the thing.....all of my old Intakt/Kompakt EW libraries are already activated (and used) inside Kontakt. Does this mean they will be safe?



Yes until you move to a new machine. Then they might not be able to be authorized again, at some point (but also depends on what workarounds NI devs find out to be feasible for this situation). Either way I would still recommend to move them out of Kompakt/Intakt (which never became 64-bit) into Kontakt for futureproofness.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 12, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Yes until you move to a new machine. Then they might not be able to be authorized again, at some point (but also depends on what workarounds NI devs find out to be feasible for this situation). Either way I would still recommend to move them out of Kompakt/Intakt (which never became 64-bit) into Kontakt for futureproofness.



But that's the thing....they ARE in Kontakt, as those old libraries also work inside Kontakt, which I've been doing for years now.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2020)

Ah, sorry, I misread what you said there. I thought you had them in your projects within Kompakt/Intakt. You should be good then, provided NI finds the solution for the issue. Let's


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 12, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Ah, sorry, I misread what you said there. I thought you had them in your projects within Kompakt/Intakt. You should be good then, provided NI finds the solution for the issue. Let's



Thanks ED!


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## JPQ (Mar 12, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Zero-G still sells Nostalgia as regular open Kontakt library, so no worries there


Thanks.


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## curtisschweitzer (Mar 12, 2020)

homie said:


> As a side note i'm very sceptical about all those new custom player based libraries popping up everywhere. IMO this trend will bring more headaches (company going out of business, buggy software, multitude of protection schemes to handle) then anything imo. Too much risk and afford for too little to gain.



Kontakt itself is just a "custom player" and libraries that use it are no different than these "custom player based libraries"-- in fact, Kontakt is a much bigger single point of failure (as is evidenced by this kerfuffle-- look at the diversity of stuff that would stop working if they go through with the current plan). At least if one company with their own player dies, the damage is limited to their libraries alone. Can you imagine if NI suddenly up and collapsed tomorrow how much of the sample library ecosystem would go with it?

The weird hostility to anything that doesn't run in Kontakt amongst some here on VI-Control absolutely mystifies me-- and not because I don't like Kontakt. I use it literally every day and have a great appreciation for its strengths, but it is hardly perfect and hardly immune to the problems that I see people complain about in other players, usually accompanied by something along the lines of "why don't they just use Kontakt". As is the case above, often Kontakt suffers from the same issues-- sometimes even moreso. _Which doesn't make it bad, or unusable, or worse_-- but I don't think we do ourselves any favors by ignoring it.


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## sin(x) (Mar 12, 2020)

curtisschweitzer said:


> Kontakt itself is just a "custom player" and libraries that use it are no different than these "custom player based libraries"



That's only somewhat true for Kontakt libraries that have their editing locked, though even with those I'd argue that Kontakt's Multi management and Multiscript features blow other samplers, and certainly other sample players out of the water. With all others – thankfully still the majority – it lets you reprogram the instruments, customize the signal flow, tweak curves and EG times, add your own scripts, build your own instruments out of the samples… for some of us, that's a _significant_ advantage over the dozen MIDI-in-audio-out black box players out there.



> in fact, Kontakt is a much bigger single point of failure (as is evidenced by this kerfuffle-- look at the diversity of stuff that would stop working if they go through with the current plan). At least if one company with their own player dies, the damage is limited to their libraries alone. Can you imagine if NI suddenly up and collapsed tomorrow how much of the sample library ecosystem would go with it?



With that I agree. Though I'd still argue that asking us to diversify our software _just_ to limit how much of our setups will go up in flames when a developer kicks the bucket and takes their DRM with them, or just decides it's not worth it anymore, is a troubling reversal of responsibilities. The legal and moral onus should be on any company pushing DRM on their users to have foolproof safeguards in place to make sure that scenario cannot happen.


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## curtisschweitzer (Mar 12, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> That's only somewhat true for Kontakt libraries that have their editing locked, though even with those I'd argue that Kontakt's Multi management and Multiscript features blow other samplers, and certainly other sample players out of the water. With all others – thankfully still the majority – it lets you reprogram the instruments, customize the signal flow, tweak curves and EG times, add your own scripts, build your own instruments out of the samples… for some of us, that's a _significant_ advantage over the dozen MIDI-in-audio-out black box players out there.



This is one of the strengths of Kontakt that I mentioned. Kontakt definitely offers this kind of under-the-hood tweaking that many of the custom players simply don't (yet). For some, that is a really great-- even necessary-- feature, and if that's something you rely on, I can certainly understand avoiding a library that doesn't have this flexibility. Contrary to what it may seem, I don't actually want to hijack this thread into a Kontakt vs. Others debate, so I will simply say that I find much of the "why can't you just release library X on Kontakt" argument less nuanced and developed than this.



sin(x) said:


> With that I agree. Though I'd still argue that asking us to diversify our software _just_ to limit how much of our setups will go up in flames when a developer kicks the bucket and takes their DRM with them, or just decides it's not worth it anymore, is a troubling reversal of responsibilities. The legal and moral onus should be on any company pushing DRM on their users to have foolproof safeguards in place to make sure that scenario cannot happen.



I don't think that NI has a responsibility to _avoid_ becoming the industry leader/standard-- they've clearly earned it through the robust and flexible nature of their software, especially Kontakt. I'm merely speaking against a prevailing attitude that I feel I see often here that products are deserving of skepticism for the singular reason than they aren't available on Kontakt. To bring it back to the topic at hand (after an excursion for which I am entirely responsible ...), controversies like this are a good example that everything has trade-offs, and no single approach is without some strengths and some weaknesses. 

Re: DRM. I think there is a good argument to be made that the inclusion of DRM in software like sample libraries is best implemented in such a way as to allow the developer to hit some kind of "off" switch when they discontinue and stop supporting a product-- and to fail to do so is shirking at least some responsibility to customers who may need to rely on it for longer than a reasonable support lifecycle, especially in an industry (media) that often centers around franchise lifecycles of decades or more. So, to quote you earlier, on this we agree.


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2020)

Dietz said:


> !!!
> 
> Still one of my secret weapons for _totally_ whacked soundscapes.


I think there's a copy of it as a Reaktor ensemble.




Matt_NI said:


> Everyone,
> Sorry if I can't always get back to every individual message. Tomorrow I have a meeting about this again and will make sure to share additional findings.


Could you discuss the possibility of taking the EWQLSO libraries and making it possible to register it as a Kontakt library rather than an Intakt library? 

Btw, I do appreciate you contributing to the conversation. A little communication goes a long way in cooling down the animosity. After all it is perfectly acceptable in this day of constantly changing tech that some things are impossible to hold on to, I would just like to hold on to EWQLSO and Hardcore bass just a little longer. I've gotten so much use out of those libraries.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2020)

EWQLSO libraries are already working within Kontakt... This whole thing is about the _activation mechanism, _not which plugin is being used (Kompakt/Intakt/Kontakt).


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> EWQLSO libraries are already working within Kontakt... This whole thing is about the _activation mechanism, _not which plugin is being used (Kompakt/Intakt/Kontakt).


It doesn't even show up in Native Access on my machine. So I assume the only way to activate it is the old way using the Intakt player. I haven't activated it in ages as it has never changed machines.


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## homie (Mar 12, 2020)

curtisschweitzer said:


> Kontakt itself is just a "custom player" and libraries that use it are no different than these "custom player based libraries"-- in fact, Kontakt is a much bigger single point of failure (as is evidenced by this kerfuffle-- look at the diversity of stuff that would stop working if they go through with the current plan). At least if one company with their own player dies, the damage is limited to their libraries alone. Can you imagine if NI suddenly up and collapsed tomorrow how much of the sample library ecosystem would go with it?



What you see as 'single point of failure' could be 'too big to fail' in case of NI though. Smaller companys are certainly more prone to go permanently bust one day. In such an event it 's surely more likely to get rescued by another company if you have a huge user base.

I'm still not convinced regarding every company developing their own proprietary player and probably never will. Maybe some kind of a high quality open source sampler free of c/r copy protection or dongles could be something to change my mind.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2020)

josejherring said:


> It doesn't even show up in Native Access on my machine. So I assume the only way to activate it is the old way using the Intakt player. I haven't activated it in ages as it has never changed machines.



Nope you can activate it in Service Center.

Also, EWQLSO was in Kompakt, not Intakt. Intakt was for loop libraries (one part of original Stormdrum was on Intakt).


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2020)

homie said:


> I'm still not convinced regarding every company developing their own proprietary player and probably never will. Maybe some kind of a high quality open source sampler free of c/r copy protection or dongles could be something to change my mind.



This is a compatibility nightmare that has been brewing for some time. As each "Player" is going to use its own disk streaming protocols and they do conflict upon actual testing. I can't even use Play in the same instances as Kontakt in VEPro. They fair a bit better together in Cubase though. I had to seperate out Sine from Kontakt in VEPro too. It was crash city with both in the same instance. So I had long ago decide to limit the number of non-Kontakt libraries. But that is proving to be impossible now.

There is a free open source sample development platform called HISE. Can't understand why people just don't use it and save us the nightmare of having to find ways that everything can play nice together.






HISE


The open source framework for sample-based instruments.




www.hise.audio


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Nope you can activate it in Service Center.
> 
> Also, EWQLSO was in Kompakt, not Intakt. Intakt was for loop libraries (one part of original Stormdrum was on Intakt).


Hmmmm....... I just don't see it show up. I'll look into that.

Kompakt, Intakt, Kontakt player, who has time to keep up with all the changing names of this crap.


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## Raphioli (Mar 12, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> Matt here from NI.
> 
> ...



I'm glad NI was listening.

If NI provides absolutely no workarounds, I'd definitely lose all trust with NI, and will be happy to ditch Kontakt as soon as another company develops a similar sample for third party libraries.
I'm sure all developers will become extremely cautious of developing for your sampler too, since the end-user will be cautious of Kontakt libraries from now on.

I personally use the Kontakt version of QLSO and Stormdrums.
I have the Play version of QLSO, but prefer the customizability of Kontakt and the fact that I don't like Play that much. Hence use the Kontakt version from time to time.
So I hope there will be a work around for that. It would be mind boggling to have to crack a software which I've purchased for around 1k USD back then.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 12, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Screenshot - sent to manager


 
I can only imagine you walking into work, ready for a smooth day when someone says “Hey Matt...we need you to go to online forums and take on the outrage of the internet! Let us know how it goes”

Though I have products on the list, this is not a major issue for me and really doesn’t make me fear for the future if my libraries anymore than normal. Things are discontinued and stop working often, for many reasons. There are workarounds and I can understand why a company looking at data points would think this isn’t worth investing money in. Half of the rage l doesn’t even seem to be about the loss of libraries on the list, but more about idea that one day a persons favorite libraries would be antiquated and unusable. I appreciate that NI is reviewing the climate in the community to find potential resolution for both sides.


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## Quasar (Mar 12, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Half of the rage l doesn’t even seem to be about the loss of libraries on the list, but more about idea that one day a persons favorite libraries would be antiquated and unusable. I appreciate that NI is reviewing the climate in the community to find potential resolution for both sides.



This sorely misses the point. Nothing lasts forever, milk spoils, razor blades become dull etc. But the outrage, at least for me, is over - specifically - the fact that these otherwise usable libraries would be lost solely because of NI's DRM, which only exists and has only ever existed to benefit the company, not the user. If they can't get their CP act together and it in any way, for any reason interferes with the delivery of the product, then the onus is on them to take the hit, not us. And if DRM renders a library unusable, then it's the DRM that has to be retired, not the library that customers have legitimately paid for and would otherwise work.

Any outrage is because the situation is objectively and obviously outrageous. I also appreciate that they are at least saying that they're looking for a happy solution. We'll see.


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## Kristoben (Mar 12, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> I hope the response to the protest won't end up being a simple extension of the grace period. This is a systemic issue and as I wrote, once we know that the activation of older products is on the chopping block at _any_ point, these products are tainted for use in new productions and we'll have to assume others will follow in the future.





homie said:


> That's my main problem with your fade out "obsolete" software plan. One of the most important aspects of the Kontakt eco system should be to make it as future proof, compatbile and reliable as possible. To me it's crucial for future buying decisions to have trust in Native Instruments and their philosphy about these aspects.
> 
> As a side note i'm very sceptical about all those new custom player based libraries popping up everywhere. IMO this trend will bring more headaches (company going out of business, buggy software, multitude of protection schemes to handle) then anything imo. Too much risk and afford for too little to gain.



These two posts sum up my thoughts perfectly. The reason I have stayed with Kontakt for so long is that (other than being great software) I have felt confident with its ecosystem and future. I have felt far safer about buying a Kontakt library than one that uses another proprietary player. Not being able to use my past libraries well into the future would be disastrous.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 12, 2020)

Quasar said:


> This sorely misses the point. Nothing lasts forever, milk spoils, razor blades become dull etc. But the outrage, at least for me, is over - specifically - the fact that these otherwise usable libraries would be lost solely because of NI's DRM, which only exists and has only ever existed to benefit the company, not the user. If they can't get their CP act together and it in any way, for any reason interferes with the delivery of the product, then the onus is on them to take the hit, not us. And if DRM renders a library unusable, then it's the DRM that has to be retired, not the library that customers have legitimately paid for and would otherwise work.
> 
> Any outrage is because the situation is objectively and obviously outrageous. I also appreciate that they are at least saying that they're looking for a happy solution. We'll see.



I suppose it’s just that I view discontinued product differently. If you lost access to a currently supported library, that’d be outrageous. My perspective is, when dealing with discontinued libraries, you’re on borrowed time. If it’s no longer supported, something will eventually make it obsolete and unusable. No one should be happy about it, but it’s a matter of time. Saying that it’s solely an issue with DRM ignores the fact that the developers of these products no longer support or maintain them. 

Anyways, I hope for those who care, NI is able to make a solution that satisfies.


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## averystemmler (Mar 12, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I suppose it’s just that I view discontinued product differently. If you lost access to a currently supported library, that’d be outrageous. My perspective is, when dealing with discontinued libraries, you’re on borrowed time. If it’s no longer supported, something will eventually make it obsolete and unusable. No one should be happy about it, but it’s a matter of time. Saying that it’s solely an issue with DRM ignores the fact that the developers of these products no longer support or maintain them.
> 
> Anyways, I hope for those who care, NI is able to make a solution that satisfies.



The practical difference, in my opinion, is that compatibility is a problem a user can legally solve if it's important to them. You can always find old hardware. VMs can be, as the technology gets faster and further from the discontinued software, a longer term solution. Occasionally, a passionate community will develop some other environment or bridge to extend the life of something that no longer runs natively.

But if a piece of software requires activation via a server, and the owner of that server ceases to allow it, there is no legal way to work around it. And, as we're seeing here, it can happen well before the software becomes otherwise unusable.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 12, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> The practical difference, in my opinion, is that compatibility is a problem a user can legally solve if it's important to them. You can always find old hardware. VMs can be, as the technology gets faster and further from the discontinued software, a longer term solution. Occasionally, a passionate community will develop some other environment or bridge to extend the life of something that no longer runs natively.
> 
> But if a piece of software requires activation via a server, and the owner of that server ceases to allow it, there is no legal way to work around it. And, as we're seeing here, it can happen well before the software becomes otherwise unusable.



Valid points. Though if a company discontinues a product or service/server, you lose that function. These are not active products, so if those third party companies had a requirement to authorize their products via their server, and they no longer maintain that server, it’s basically the same result. Again software being “unusable” after its official support has been stopped is the clutch here. To some, NI as the platform is required to guarantee functionality of functionally “usable” libraries made by third parties for as long as they are considered functional, even though they’re no longer considered supported. 

We’ll not agree im sure, but it’s just some of these arguments here are a bit stained in people’s frustrations in this business and industry as a whole, and it gets a bit hyperbolic. Like the idea that this is all Mac and catalina’s fault. I had a similar problem recently when I bought Kirk hunter solo spotlight string and got a good year or so out of it, before kontakt 6 came out and half broke the library. Kirk hunter seemingly tried to fix the problem but in the end the only resolution was to technically retire the library limiting its support to kontakt 5, and a new spotlight strings library was made. For as long as I can run kontakt 5 I can still use that original software, but when that time runs out, it’s gone for me. Money spent and gone. I don’t fault either side. NI has reason to upgrade to kontakt 6 and it unfortunately broke some old libraries in the process. Kirk couldn’t solve it, so they made a new product. They’re two separate entities with two different interests and paces. When we buy from either, there’s risk and a ticking clock. Enjoy what you have while you have it I say.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 12, 2020)

I think we all agree that something should be done, potentially providing a license key as I don't know if NI can actually remove the DRM off of non-NI libraries. Now it is just waiting to see what they do.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 12, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Valid points. Though if a company discontinues a product or service/server, you lose that function. These are not active products, so if those third party companies had a requirement to authorize their products via their server, and they no longer maintain that server, it’s basically the same result. Again software being “unusable” after its official support has been stopped is the clutch here. To some, NI as the platform is required to guarantee functionality of functionally “usable” libraries made by third parties for as long as they are considered functional, even though they’re no longer considered supported.
> 
> We’ll not agree im sure, but it’s just some of these arguments here are a bit stained in people’s frustrations in this business and industry as a whole, and it gets a bit hyperbolic. Like the idea that this is all Mac and catalina’s fault. I had a similar problem recently when I bought Kirk hunter solo spotlight string and got a good year or so out of it, before kontakt 6 came out and half broke the library. Kirk hunter seemingly tried to fix the problem but in the end the only resolution was to technically retire the library limiting its support to kontakt 5, and a new spotlight strings library was made. For as long as I can run kontakt 5 I can still use that original software, but when that time runs out, it’s gone for me. Money spent and gone. I don’t fault either side. NI has reason to upgrade to kontakt 6 and it unfortunately broke some old libraries in the process. Kirk couldn’t solve it, so they made a new product. They’re two separate entities with two different interests and paces. When we buy from either, there’s risk and a ticking clock. Enjoy what you have while you have it I say.



There are people still using Gigasampler, mostly through translating for use in Kontakt or EXS24. Because they want to be able to continue to use them. Luckily, Giga samples weren’t encrypted so that was possible. You don’t have the luxury with Kontakt libraries to do that. As Quasar has already said, a block was put on that purely for NI’s convenience. People had the expectation NI would honour its obligations to at least support continued use on compatible hardware. You don’t think it’s up to NI to honour that arrangement?


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## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> For months I was not able to get the Galaxy Steinway 5.1 to install thru Native Access. NI tech support really showed patience and persistence trying every thing we could think of till finally they solved it and voila everything works perfectly!! Great work!! I’m very impressed with NI tech support 👍👏


Stockholm syndrome or irony? Hard to tell.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 13, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> There are people still using Gigasampler, mostly through translating for use in Kontakt or EXS24. Because they want to be able to continue to use them. Luckily, Giga samples weren’t encrypted so that was possible. You don’t have the luxury with Kontakt libraries to do that. As Quasar has already said, a block was put on that purely for NI’s convenience. People had the expectation NI would honour its obligations to at least support continued use on compatible hardware. You don’t think it’s up to NI to honour that arrangement?



For libraries already officially discontinued by their third party developers? No. 

if some massive change happened and NI said tomorrow “hey, all your currently supported spitfire libraries no longer work, sorry!” I could see the outrage. But this scenario is NI being tasked with the burden of continuing to support libraries the developers don’t anymore. Every claim of incompatibility or error is left with them even though the developer has officially retired them. If the developer themselves aren’t guaranteeing perpetual support, why is NI, simply by being the platform, expected to? If it’s not totally feasible or statistically relevant to maintain support for these libraries why should they?


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## NYC Composer (Mar 13, 2020)

This is probably the first 19 page thread I’ve read on VI that was actually worth reading all the way through, and it speaks to the value of community.

I’m happy to see Matt from N.I. chiming in here, but I’m a little skeptical about his (or anyone’s) ability to move this mountain. We’ll see. I have a few libraries on The List so I’ll be watching this and contacting developers (@chrishein). Fortunately for me I just changed computers, but I have no desire to lose libraries I’ve paid for due to new installations. That would suck.

I still use EWQLSO percussion and I have plenty of EW libraries but I moved to Play long ago, for better or worse.I started with Kompakt/Intakt etc in Komplete 2.

I’m not delighted with Play 6 but I don’t seem to have the amount of problems others do in VEP or elsewhere, it’s just a little clunky.

@Quasar-I’ve looked askance at your posts about this issue from time to time, but you were right. Eventually, they come for you (or me.)


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## Iswhatitis (Mar 13, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Stockholm syndrome or irony? Hard to tell.


Clever, but it was mostly my fault since I chose to not reply to their ideas to fix this as quickly as I could have.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 13, 2020)

Hey, “clever” would have sufficed


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I suppose it’s just that I view discontinued product differently. If you lost access to a currently supported library, that’d be outrageous. My perspective is, when dealing with discontinued libraries, you’re on borrowed time.


Very insightful. My one niggle here is, when exactly is a library "discontinued"? Initially, a library is shiny and new. There is an expectation that the library is "permanent" without consideration that one day it's digital bits will disintegrate into Digital detritus due to some arbitrary change in the company's policy.

Then you've used the library for a long time, enjoying it. It still works perfectly.

Now someone comes along and says, "it's discontinued." At some random point as you're owning it.

To you, the product is still perfectly good and useable. Unlike a physical product, it neither actually degrades over time, nor becomes less valuable (other than new technologies perhaps supplanting a library's older tech).

So the issue is, this company is literally taking the product out of your hands at some arbitrary point in time that they decree. But to you it's still "as good as new." As good as the day you bought it.

This is tantamount to theft.

I know that sounds harsh, but unless NI compensates us for each and every library they take away, with an equivalent or better library, or actual money back, then they are stealing what we have bought from them.

And let's not even get into the fact that some of the libraries on the list are STILL BEING SOLD - so can you imagine the horror of buying one of these and then discovering, by the way, if you don't activate this in a month, it's toast.

This is a huge, major gaff.

I have sympathy towards NI because I truly believe they are wanting to do the right thing. Wanting and doing are different animals, however. It remains to be seen whether they do the right thing or do the evil thing.

Mike


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> For libraries already officially discontinued by their third party developers? No.
> 
> if some massive change happened and NI said tomorrow “hey, all your currently supported spitfire libraries no longer work, sorry!” I could see the outrage. But this scenario is NI being tasked with the burden of continuing to support libraries the developers don’t anymore. Every claim of incompatibility or error is left with them even though the developer has officially retired them. If the developer themselves aren’t guaranteeing perpetual support, why is NI, simply by being the platform, expected to?



The point you are missing is that these libraries are *not obsolete*. They function PERFECTLY and people paid good money for them and some rely on them as stated previously.

The ONLY REASON they are now being considered for discontinuation is for NI's CONVENIENCE and their difficulty in maintaining THEIR PROTECTION SCHEME.

As someone said earlier, it's like having a car with a key. You bought it, drive it for years. Now the company says, "we're taking away your key."

Car is FINE.

This is theft.

I don't get what you don't get here. It's not obsolete software as you keep trying to say. It's the DRM changing that NI is not wanting to invest in a workaround.

THIS IS FOR NI's PROTECTION. It's THEFT TO PROTECT NI.

And it's wrong.



> If it’s not totally feasible or statistically relevant to maintain support for these libraries why should they?"



Because people paid good money for the libraries and were not informed when purchasing them that there would come an arbitrary day when they would cease to function simply because NI wants to stay protected.

it almost feels like you are playing devil's advocate on purpose, and purposely twisting what's happening. I hope I'm wrong, but as cogent as your posts are, it seems like you are not respecting other people's experiences and needs here. I almost what to say "who's side are you on anyway". Not that there should be a side in a perfect world. In any case, apologies if this comes off harshly; I appreciate your presence in this forum. But it seems like you are purposely not hearing the composer's side here.

Mike


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## sin(x) (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> But this scenario is NI being tasked with the burden of continuing to support libraries the developers don’t anymore.



*This is not about supporting the libraries.* Kontakt does that by default, and I can almost guarantee that will never change unless NI is okay with with rendering *thousands* (instead of dozens) of legacy commercial and custom libraries unuseable in one fell swoop. Nobody is expecting NI to touch a byte of these legacy libraries or answer a single support call about them.

This is about the fact that DRM that NI introduced into their ecosystem is now* functionally transforming products into software-as-a-service.* But they were sold to us as products, not services. Otherwise we could have made an informed choice to either plan ahead for them being switched off one day, or not touch them with a 10-foot pole in the first place.

@averystemmler made an excellent point. The fundamental difference is that with a software product that merely becomes unsupported, there's *always* a way to keep it around even across system changes if we decide that it's important enough to deal with the added impracticalities. In this case, we're not given that choice.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Very insightful. My one niggle here is, when exactly is a library "discontinued"? Initially, a library is shiny and new. There is an expectation that the library is "permanent" without consideration that one day it's digital bits will disintegrate into Digital detritus due to some arbitrary change in the company's policy.
> 
> Then you've used the library for a long time, enjoying it. It still works perfectly.
> 
> ...




The Product is considered discontinued when the developer and/vender officially announces that it's discontinued. That should be pretty clear. It has nothing to do with the quality of the product you own. Rather it's saying, the developer will no longer make it, update it or sell it. That's why this is a fuzzy area. If it was a physical product, it would never change from the day you got it. If it was a physical product, the only change is the degradation of quality over time. Software is part service. After you've paid for it, you get updates, and patches applied. When there are bugs, you expect the developer to fix them. So your product is one part the samples you bought (or rather bought the license to use), and one part the service you expect to receive to maintain it. The degradation is not in the quality of the samples, it's in the compatibility with the sample player and the OSs that support it. When they decide to discontinue that product, your samples remain, but your service ends. That means guarantees of stability and compatibility, that means guarantees that the installers will still work, and guarantees that your license codes can still be authorized are no longer applied.

So even throwing out "well XXX is still selling it" that's not NI's fault or responsibility. Somehow NI is now responsible for every product that ever runs through Kontakt, and responsible for every reseller that continues to sell a discontinued product, and they're considered responsible for maintaining systems for products the original developers no longer support. I find that to be over the top.


If this was a third-party product, on a third-party server, and they discontinued the product, you'd be in the same boat. Just because NI has a current authorization system for currently active products, does not mean automatically our discontinued, no longer manufactured software need be included in that. I've come to terms with the products I'm about to lose in this, and I guess I'll make what changes I can before may.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I can only imagine you walking into work, ready for a smooth day when someone says “Hey Matt...we need you to go to online forums and take on the outrage of the internet! Let us know how it goes”
> 
> Though I have products on the list, this is not a major issue for me and really doesn’t make me fear for the future if my libraries anymore than normal. Things are discontinued and stop working often, for many reasons. There are workarounds and I can understand why a company looking at data points would think this isn’t worth investing money in. Half of the rage l doesn’t even seem to be about the loss of libraries on the list, but more about idea that one day a persons favorite libraries would be antiquated and unusable. I appreciate that NI is reviewing the climate in the community to find potential resolution for both sides.



To be honest I genuinely care about this taking another direction and I wished we could have done it differently from the start. I'm generally more present on our official channels and it's not any easier 
It was time to join a few more communities and it's also a great opportunity for me to engage here in the future if needed. Anyway time to discuss this here


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> The Product is considered discontinued when the developer and/vender officially announces that it's discontinued. That should be pretty clear. It has nothing to do with the quality of the product you own. Rather it's saying, the developer will no longer make it, update it or sell it. That's why this is a fuzzy area. If it was a physical product, it would never change from the day you got it. If it was a physical product, the only change is the degradation of quality over time. Software is part service. After you've paid for it, you get updates, and patches applied. When there are bugs, you expect the developer to fix them. So your product is one part the samples you bought (or rather bought the license to use), and one part the service you expect to receive to maintain it. The degradation is not in the quality of the samples, it's in the compatibility with the sample player and the OSs that support it. When they decide to discontinue that product, your samples remain, but your service ends. That means guarantees of stability and compatibility, that means guarantees that the installers will still work, and guarantees that your license codes can still be authorized are no longer applied.
> 
> So even throwing out "well XXX is still selling it" that's not NI's fault or responsibility. Somehow NI is now responsible for every product that ever runs through Kontakt, and responsible for every reseller that continues to sell a discontinued product, and they're considered responsible for maintaining systems for products the original developers no longer support. I find that to be over the top.
> 
> ...


Wow. You just don’t get it.

the agreement when you buy it does not state that you are renting the software for a specified period of time.

So your argument is completely without merit. They are breaking their contract with us, plain and simple.

the EULA does not state NI can discontinue the product whenever they want for whatever reason.

you do not get to tell me NI is behaving within their legalrights, or that I should just shut up and agree to to being screwed over.

Arguing a vague clause in the EULA means they can screw us over at will is ridiculous.

No offense, but wow. Are you working for NI? Sounds like you have a different dog in this race.

and - I’m pleased NI is considering other options now.


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## KallumS (Mar 13, 2020)

Is there a lawyer in the house?


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

KallumS said:


> Is there a lawyer in the house?


IANAL.


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## KallumS (Mar 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> IANAL.



There's no way to say that abbreviation and make it sound right


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

I know! I was trying to sound cool. But it BACKFIRED!

Yuk yuk!


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Wow. You just don’t get it.
> 
> the agreement when you buy it does not state that you are renting the software for a specified period of time.
> 
> ...



Yes. The only people who can ever take a different side must be working for NI. There can’t possibly be any other people who just see the situation differently.

A “vague clause” in the EULA is the whole point! That’s the whole entire point. The point every one of us agrees to when we buy and use a library. NI’s does have a grey area that implies perpetual coverage for activation keys, but their warranty also says they don’t guarantee perpetual coverage for the products.

I get what you want me to see. Big bad mega corporation is violating your rights and stealing your products. What I’m defending against is the mob mentality that many consumers have despite clearly defined user agreements and standards. The burden is not just about NI but also the expectations toward developers too. Increasingly, people want to pay once and get free updates forever. They want pre-sale demo videos of every single articulation. They want a guarantee that their product will work forever, on any OS, and any system at any time anywhere. They want more features at no additional cost. They want better sales more often, and better deals, and when any talk about profits or future investments come up, NI and developers are often painted as the bad guy who selfishly expects to make a living or a profit off their work.

My dog in this game is just fatigue from the constant whining these forums have about the developers methods every time they make a disagreeable decision. It’s never a rational conversation. For many people it’s pitch forks out talking about the greed of the big guy and the small pockets and resources of the little guy. It’s exhausting.


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## Monkey Man (Mar 13, 2020)

Subscribed.

I've been looking forward to joining the NI ecosystem for _at least_ 10 years and still don't own a "sampler VI" apart from Mach Five. Financial difficulties and music-gear priorities have seen me come close but repeatedly having to postpone the buy-in.

The way this plays out will affect my decision big-time. The plan was always to go for Komplete Ultimate, and then last year I upgraded my goal to the Collector's Edition, but unless I'm convinced long-term efficacy is guaranteed, I'll reluctantly choose to forego all the additional plugins, libraries and benefits of KUCE and plunk down for Falcon and suffer the slow, incremental journey of building a sample library using UVI's excellent-but-expensive (for me especially) offerings.

Obviously my preference is to go with NI, but as I said, long-term efficacy is paramount on my budget and associated time frame. For the love of God, NI, please, _please_ show us that you'll not leave long-term customers out-in-the-cold with regard to (some, or any for that matter) paid products that happen to not be new anymore.

Thank you. ❤


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 13, 2020)

Monkey Man said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> I've been looking forward to joining the NI ecosystem for _at least_ 10 years and still don't own a "sampler VI" apart from Mach Five. Financial difficulties and music-gear priorities have seen me come close but repeatedly having to postpone the buy-in.
> 
> ...



UVI and falcon are great. Good enough to ignore the annoying iLok stuff. Regardless of this NI stuff, I’d love to see more happen with Falcon.


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## Monkey Man (Mar 13, 2020)

Yeah, I've not used it but spent a fair amount of time in Mach Five several years ago, and it was impressive. The UVI engine sounds great too.

It's an expensive affair to purchase anywhere near what I'd receive included in KUCE 'though, hence my post and interest in how NI handles this.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> ... some of the libraries on the list are STILL BEING SOLD ...


Are you sure? The ones I'm aware of (Zero-G in particular) are now being sold in unlocked versions that are, in effect, new releases even though they're not clearly labeled as such. And the Chris Hein Horns on the list is a different product from the current ones, with a different name.

That said, we are left with a core group of products that have not been updated and have no exact replacements. These include B4 II, Pro-53, Spectral Delay, Vokator. The EWQL libraries probably belong in this group, mainly because I suspect it would be impractical to replace them with Play versions in existing projects but also because some users just don't like Play itself.


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## Quasar (Mar 13, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> @Quasar-I’ve looked askance at your posts about this issue from time to time, but you were right. Eventually, they come for you (or me.)



LOL I actually thought of the famous Niemoller quote and for a nanosecond considered using it in my complaints. But there is an obvious _huge_ disparity of gravity and scale, which makes borrowing something like that inappropriate here IMHO. (Even for as hyperbolic as I like to get.)

But yeah, once someone (anyone) demonstrates the ability to casually break agreements and behave unscrupulously, it shouldn't be a surprise when it happens again. "Fool me once..." and all of that.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> And let's not even get into the fact that some of the libraries on the list are STILL BEING SOLD



They're not sold anymore, none of them. What is sold are either updated versions (different serial number, newer auth mechanism), or unencoded versions (as is the case with Zero-G Nostalgia, say).


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## d.healey (Mar 13, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> They're not sold anymore, none of them. What is sold are either updated versions (different serial number, newer auth mechanism), or unencoded versions (as is the case with Zero-G Nostalgia, say).


At least you can re-buy the products you've already bought


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## EvilDragon (Mar 13, 2020)

No, you contact Zero-G support and they'd accomodate you a swap in case, say, Nostalgia is unauthorizable at some point. They're good people at Zero-G.


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## d.healey (Mar 13, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> No, you contact Zero-G support and they'd accomodate you a swap in case, say, Nostalgia is unauthorizable at some point. They're good people at Zero-G.


I hope they (or NI) email each customer to let them know that they need to do this.


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## GNP (Mar 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> It's probably fairly easy to pirate things that they choose no longer to activate. Can anyone confirm?
> 
> Another manufacturer discontinued my favorite synth plugin many years ago, and they provided a version of it that no longer needs activation. I thought that's the right way to go about it. Maybe we could urge NI to do the same?
> 
> They probably covered there asses in the fineprint of the EULA we all signed. But I don't know if maybe the hassle of dealing with a lawsuit is enough of a deterrant?



Bingo. As much as I try to pay for everything now, piracy is still our friend, especially in situations like this.


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## homie (Mar 13, 2020)

NI don't have the copyright for third party libraries i would think. A possible solution must be discussed between all involved parties i'd say.


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## homie (Mar 13, 2020)

josejherring said:


> There is a free open source sample development platform called HISE. Can't understand why people just don't use it and save us the nightmare of having to find ways that everything can play nice together.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know about HISE and how good it is, but if it's good and battle tested it would be nice if sample developers would sell us their plain samples as wav/aiff plus HISE patches and we would be more independent than we're now. Sounds like a dream that will never happen though.


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## d.healey (Mar 13, 2020)

homie said:


> it would be nice if sample developers would sell us their plain samples as wav/aiff plus HISE patches


Well I almost do that, except the samples are in HISE's lossless sample format. HISE is a developer tool to create plugins, not an end user sample player.


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## homie (Mar 13, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Well I almost do that, except the samples are in HISE's lossless sample format. HISE is a developer tool to create plugins, not an end user sample player.



Cool, but not exactly what i envisioned. My dream would be an open source sampler basically like Kontakt. I could live without the separation of Kontakt Full and Player though. Would be nicer if it were an all in one solution.


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## Technostica (Mar 13, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I hope they (or NI) email each customer to let them know that they need to do this.


If you have software that you value that stops working presumably you'd check with the vendor!
Email addresses can change, especially when talking about software that was purchased over 10 years ago, spam gets too aggressive.


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## d.healey (Mar 13, 2020)

Technostica said:


> If you have software that you value that stops working presumably you'd check with the vendor!
> Email addresses can change, especially when talking about software that was purchased over 10 years ago, spam gets too aggressive.


The vendor should still try to contact customers, even about old products (I still use a 15 year old email address!). Vendors also go out of business so it may not be possible to contact them in the future when you discover that you can't use the product on your new system.



homie said:


> Cool, but not exactly what i envisioned. My dream would be an open source sampler basically like Kontakt. I could live without the separation of Kontakt Full and Player though. Would be nicer if it were an all in one solution.


Linux Sampler


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## SupremeFist (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> My dog in this game is just fatigue from the constant whining these forums have about the developers methods every time they make a disagreeable decision. It’s never a rational conversation.



Strange, I have found this thread to be perfectly rational, with the exception of the occasional posts telling concerned customers that they are being irrational.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 13, 2020)

Technostica said:


> If you have software that you value that stops working presumably you'd check with the vendor!
> Email addresses can change, especially when talking about software that was purchased over 10 years ago, spam gets too aggressive.


The problem with this is EW has updated libraries you can get. They probably offered discounts to those who switched. Most of these people using the Kontakt versions likely also have the Play versions. But, Play doesn't allow for adjusting the samples like the Kontakt version did. Play is really locked down. And the earlier versions of Play didn't work well. 

I'm sure most of the people that still use the Kontakt version have it set to sound the way they want it to sound. They can probably get the Play version to do this, but the amount of work it would take is a lot.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> The problem with this is EW has updated libraries you can get. They probably offered discounts to those who switched. Most of these people using the Kontakt versions likely also have the Play versions. But, Play doesn't allow for adjusting the samples like the Kontakt version did. Play is really locked down. And the earlier versions of Play didn't work well.
> 
> I'm sure most of the people that still use the Kontakt version have it set to sound the way they want it to sound. They can probably get the Play version to do this, but the amount of work it would take is a lot.



I have the old versions so that I can use them on both my master and slave, without having to buy another license. I can still update them to Play, but it would costs hundreds of dollars.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> My dog in this game is just fatigue from the constant whining these forums have about the developers methods every time they make a disagreeable decision. It’s never a rational conversation. For many people it’s pitch forks out talking about the greed of the big guy and the small pockets and resources of the little guy. It’s exhausting.



I feel the same way most of the time. However, I feel this is a very legitimate complaint. It will definitely hit the pocket book if I can't reinstall/activate all my "old" EW libraries when I upgrade my Mac this year.


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## Technostica (Mar 13, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> The problem with this is EW has updated libraries you can get. They probably offered discounts to those who switched. Most of these people using the Kontakt versions likely also have the Play versions. But, Play doesn't allow for adjusting the samples like the Kontakt version did. Play is really locked down. And the earlier versions of Play didn't work well.
> 
> I'm sure most of the people that still use the Kontakt version have it set to sound the way they want it to sound. They can probably get the Play version to do this, but the amount of work it would take is a lot.


Yes, this particular issue has been discussed in depth.
I was conversing with someone specifically about the communication between vendors and their clients and nothing more.
The specifics will vary.


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## MartinH. (Mar 13, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> To be honest I genuinely care about this taking another direction and I wished we could have done it differently from the start.



Thanks you Matt! I'm glad to hear that! I think this is a moment of quite some significance for the VI user community and NI alike. Because if this isn't resolved in a way that is satisfactory for the users, it will forever erode trust in DRM'ed products from all developers, not just NI. So far cautious people like me always had to argue from a point of "What if they just switch off their licensing servers or go out of business though?", and others tended to brush it off as "Nah, won't happen.". If you now create a negative precedent, the future discussions about products with comparable DRM tech will be "What if they 'pull an NI on you' and switch off their activation service though?", and NI will be brought up again and again in a very unfavorable way. So if you inevitably get internal pushback from management because of the cost for whatever workarounds are up for discussion, please make them aware that even though the damage to the brand and future lost revenue can never be exactly quantified, it is a very real future cost that comes with leaving the owners of these legacy products hanging now.




d.healey said:


> The vendor should still try to contact customers, even about old products (I still use a 15 year old email address!).



I agree! But if they followed the GDPR guidelines and their EU customers didn't opt back in to getting mails during the transitional period, wouldn't contacting them in spite of the failure to opt back in be a breach of the GDPR rules, strictly speaking?


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## dzilizzi (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I have the old versions so that I can use them on both my master and slave, without having to buy another license. I can still update them to Play, but it would costs hundreds of dollars.


Sorry what I meant was EW won't give a $%#$ if you can't use their old libraries. They quit supporting them a long time ago. So it is unlikely they will fix the DRM.


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## d.healey (Mar 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> wouldn't contacting them in spite of the failure to opt back in be a breach of the GDPR rules, strictly speaking?


Yep that's probably true. But they can still contact customers that are on their GDPR valid mailing list.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Sorry what I meant was EW won't give a $%#$ if you can't use their old libraries. They quit supporting them a long time ago. So it is unlikely they will fix the DRM.



but NI should honour the license and activation.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 13, 2020)

When I’m at NAMM, I’ll hear at least a half dozen people shake their heads and start a sentence with the words, _“Man, sometimes those guys at VI-Control…”_ No offense, but with words like "theft" and "immoral" being thrown about, I think this is one of those threads they’re referring to. 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy that I might not be able to keep using some of these old products as I update my system (I prefer EWQLSO on Kontakt, too), but I always assumed I was on borrowed time anyway. Didn’t we all? I mean, does anyone _really_ believe they’re going to get a lifetime of use when they buy something?

Anyone in this game long enough to be affected by this must surely have dozens of other expired products, right? I wish Atmosphere still worked, but it doesn’t. I guess I could keep complaining to Spectrasonics, but instead, when they released Omnisphere, I upgraded. East West offered a reasonable crossgrade deal when PLAY was announced, so I did that, too. If I wanted to consider myself a professional, it was a cost of doing business. Is PLAY as good as Kontakt? Nope. But why is that Native Instruments’ problem? How long is Native Instruments responsible for supplying a better alternative to PLAY for EW customers?

Back to Atmosphere, as most of us know, none of our original Atmosphere sessions will open in Omnisphere. So I had a choice. If my old sessions were important to me (most were not), then I could go through each of those sessions one by one and update them to Omnisphere.

Or … I could simply keep my old Macs, and then when I do need to refer to one of those sessions, everything is right there where I left it, Atmosphere, Studio Vision, and all. That’s the solution I picked. Heck, I even have my old Atari 1040, just in case I need to recall any of those old SMPTE-Track sessions.

Seems to me that if people are really concerned about losing some of these old products when NI stops authorizing them, then why not buy a $200 used Mac Mini and install everything on that, then keep it on a shelf for when you need it? That’s what I do, so I can keep using KeyMap and all sorts of other stuff that’s no longer supported. You can bet I'll be checking to make sure these NI products are installed on there, too.

Back to the _“Man, sometimes those guys at VI-Control…”_ premise of this post, maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t help but think that much of this thread is really more about the relentless anti-CP crusade than it is about the actual issue at hand. I probably shouldn't have said that out loud, but I do feel we need to keep perspective here, because although I wish I could keep using everything forever, there is a cost to it that we need to keep in mind:

If NI allocates resources to revamping their authorization system, which won't be easy, those resources have to come from somewhere. I'd like to believe they could simply offset the costs by serving less caviar in the cafeteria, but my guess is that the real cost will be time diverted from Kontakt or other products, since the only people who can realistically fix this authorization problem are the same in-house engineers NI already has.

So speaking for myself, I’ll happily keep an old Mac Mini to run B4 and Pro53 if it would mean the engineers can instead get back to work making my S61 keyboard lights work properly in Kontakt, as opposed to requiring Komplete Kontrol.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> but NI should honour the license and activation.


Yes. But someone was saying that the DRM needed to be removed and I don't believe NI can do that on 3rd party libraries. They can only provide a different way to activate it.


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## Raphioli (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> but NI should honour the license and activation.


I'm not sure if its possible,
but they could release an official key gen and let legitimate users download it by logging in to their NI account.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 13, 2020)

As promised, catching up with some additional information from today's discussion.

First, the team is actively trying to organise the possibility of extending the transition period and so offer more time to the customers affected by this announcement.

For NI's product, we are investigating different possible scenarios which would allow to keep some usability on compatible systems. The team is gathering feedback from various experts to see where we stand technically and what is do-able with what we have available for the legacy instruments. It seems like we are already making good progress on identifying products that could be useable (for ex, Pro-53). To stay as transparent as possible, we will share more technical information from our experts about our process and also some of our challenges.

For 3rd party instruments, we will reach out to every partners again to see if we can take further actions and which scenarios might be suitable to address this topic. The challenges we face with the large majority of OEM instruments remains but we will tackle this from every reasonable angle possible.

We are still very much in the process so I'll definitely deliver regular updates.


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## chillbot (Mar 13, 2020)

@Mike Greene , I haven't really been complaining in this thread, but following it with keen interest. I'm not too worried because A) I still think NI will fix this issue somehow and B) we all know there are certain workarounds that we can use.

But man I'm still using these sounds and libraries, and I'm still using them often and in lots of tracks! Your analogy of Atmosphere doesn't hold up because all the sounds in Atmosphere are included in Omnisphere. Tell me where I can find Big Fish Audio Raging Guitars, just as an example.

It's not about keeping old projects running, otherwise your solution works. It's about continuing to use all these sounds in current projects. And even when there are paths to upgrades, the sounds may differ or they aren't programmed the same. I've been using the timp from EWQLSO for 15+ years. I've used them in over 10,000+ tracks easy. I know them like the back of my hand, I know every frequency, I know exactly where they sit in the mix, I know the exact velocities to use to get the rolls that I want, etc. I've tried the timp in EWSO in Play, not the same. Not even sure they are the same samples, I think they are? But they don't respond the same. Not named the same, so I'm not sure. Not to mention why do I have to switch to Play, it's not the same as Kontakt, I like Kontakt. In fact there's so much general disdain out there for Play, it's become a badge of honor for those of us that still have EWQLSO in Kontakt.

Anyway I thought maybe you were missing it from my perspective.


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## d.healey (Mar 13, 2020)

For me the principle is the issue, not the specific effect. I don't have a copy/license of any of the libraries on the list.

Every piece of software can be run indefinitely as long as there is hardware that is compatible or a hardware emulator. There is no technical time limit.

I still run video games from the 80s using a Commodore Emulator, I have a PS1 that still works just fine (even with it's crappy DRM), my MP3 player from 2008 still works. None of these products are going to get updates or support, that's fine, I don't expect them to. But they still work and no-one has the right to take them away from me.

Nobody expects to use a piece of software for all eternity, but that doesn't mean it's okay for someone else to take it away at will. Just because I'll stop using something one day doesn't give someone else permission to decide when that day is.

I'm sure my car will stop running eventually but it's up to me when I decide to trade it in.

Using DRM has created an artificial technical time limit that serves no purpose other than to benefit the developers. This is the principle at the heart of this thread and it is fundamentally wrong. Nobody should decide when you can no longer use the software you purchased.

Never buy anything with DRM unless you have the means to bypass it. It will always screw you eventually.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> If NI allocates resources to revamping their authorization system, which won't be easy, those resources have to come from somewhere.



Well....

We've learned that there have been several authorisation system variations down the years (as many as 5 I think), all of which are different from one another, and each one presents potential problems for OS updates.

This issue seems to be that the earlier forms of CP are currently causing major issues, hence by dropping it / them they can save money and resources. However, if they do this the problem doesn't go away in the long term, they're still juggling all these competing systems. Authorisation will always be a resources burden for NI.

It may not be technically possible, but I understand that one idea might be figuring out a way to migrate old systems to new. If that's doable (a big if) then time spent now by NI will pay them back in spades, as they can stop managing all these obsolete methods and just keep the latest one up to date. And customers are quite happy, everything keeps working. So now might be a resources investment, not a resources sink.

On the general point, I think NI have been great at responding to this. There hasn't been a hint of "man those guys at VI control". They've seen it as I think many of us see it - we have to have confidence that whatever future challenges await us all with keeping systems working through OS changes, that CP won't be one of them. A license shouldn't be the problem, ever. If there's a perception that what you buy today you may not be able to activate X years in the future, that's a problem over and above the usual OS concerns to stay on top of. If that takes resources to solve - even without a great payday for all at the end - it's a worthy cause imo.


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## Quasar (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> When I’m at NAMM, I’ll hear at least a half dozen people shake their heads and start a sentence with the words, _“Man, sometimes those guys at VI-Control…”_ No offense, but with words like "theft" and "immoral" being thrown about, I think this is one of those threads they’re referring to.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy that I might not be able to keep using some of these old products as I update my system (I prefer EWQLSO on Kontakt, too), but I always assumed I was on borrowed time anyway. Didn’t we all? I mean, does anyone _really_ believe they’re going to get a lifetime of use when they buy something?
> 
> ...



Why do you conflate libraries that "expire" naturally due to the ever-changing architecture of modern computers and operating systems with libraries that "expire" solely because they no longer fit into a developer's CP scheme? The former is understandable and inevitable. The latter is absolutely unacceptable. Sorry, but if NI does implement this, then the actions are indeed "immoral" and do tangibly constitute an act of "theft", so it shouldn't be confounding when such terms are used to accurately convey what is happening.

Re keeping alive old activations on an old Mac Mini or whatever, that's cool as far as it goes. But this only underscores the problem: When old libraries expire naturally, then one could, if desired, get an old P4 PC, run Windows ME, and create an environment in which all of your favorite software from 1999 runs fine. Of course, I wouldn't expect customer support for this, but the point is that I am free to at least try to use the software as best I can. But if a product is "expired" because the remote-server based CP no longer functions, then there is no way to authorize it, so you can't legally do that. Therein lies the difference.

This isn't an "anti-CP crusade" per se, though it is one of the best arguments for the futility, dysfunction and inefficacy of DRM I have ever encountered. This has been said already, many times in this thread, but it remains true: DRM only exists for the _benefit of the developer_, not the end user. So if NI wishes to allocate resources to implement CP, as a customer that's not my concern. My only concern is that their CP does not in any way interfere with my ability to use the product. If it does, the onus is on them to fix it, not on me to accept it, most especially when the changes to their DRM protocols over the past three years have constituted direct violations of the agreements in place when the libraries were purchased.


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## Quasar (Mar 13, 2020)

d.healey said:


> For me the principle is the issue, not the specific effect. I don't have a copy/license of any of the libraries on the list.



I DO have several libraries on the list, and still use them. But I agree 1000% that the principle is the issue.


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Yes. The only people who can ever take a different side must be working for NI. There can’t possibly be any other people who just see the situation differently.
> 
> A “vague clause” in the EULA is the whole point! That’s the whole entire point. The point every one of us agrees to when we buy and use a library. NI’s does have a grey area that implies perpetual coverage for activation keys, but their warranty also says they don’t guarantee perpetual coverage for the products.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, and well stated. Thank you.

I do disagree that the EULA is clear and well defined in this area. Else we would not be having this discussion.

I enjoy reading your posts.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 13, 2020)

<<DELETED BY ADMIN - Greene, when are you ever gonna learn to keep your mouth shut???>>


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## KallumS (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> _"Man, those guys at VI-Control"_



I actually saw someone at KvR say something to that effect the other day.


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## sin(x) (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> Back to the _“Man, sometimes those guys at VI-Control…”_ premise of this post, maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t help but think that much of this thread is really more about the relentless anti-CP crusade than it is about the actual issue at hand.



I realize I'm stepping right into your notion of _those guys at VI-Control._ That said… I really don't think you're being fair if you use this of all threads to play that card. 98% of the posts in here, no matter the viewpoint, have been (dare I say uncharacteristically) constructive, posters by and large seem to be sincerely trying to substantiate their views while engaging with others, and I honestly feel like you're confounding views you don't share with drama.

As for the "relentless anti-CP crusade", the majority of us seem to acknowledge the economical motives and developers' principal right to implement it. It's just that we feel that *if it's the very CP that renders the product unuseable* at some point, with no other compelling technical reasons being even communicated, a line has been crossed that doesn't bode well for the balance between developers' vs. users' rights in the future.


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## SupremeFist (Mar 13, 2020)

I am pro DRM because I believe creators need to be compensated for their brilliant work. This is an issue of DRM not working properly, not an issue of DRM being evil in itself.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 13, 2020)

@chillbot 10,000 tracks? Amazing. Are you not bored of using the same sounds?

On DRM: i don’t care. You buy the product, enter the code and get to work. 

The idea that DRM only benefits the developers simply isn’t true. If I’m going to spend 1K on a library, you bet I want every line of code locked up tight and every slice of audio encrypted.


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## Quasar (Mar 13, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> The idea that DRM only benefits the developers simply isn’t true. If I’m going to spend 1K on a library, you bet I want every line of code locked up tight and every slice of audio encrypted.



Why?


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## chillbot (Mar 13, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Are you not bored of using the same sounds?


Yes. But with something like timp, specifically, I'd rather have a sample I'm familiar with than something newer or different because in the end it's just timp.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike - yes, not sure Likes are ever a very reliable guide to anything!



SupremeFist said:


> I am pro DRM because I believe creators need to be compensated for their brilliant work. This is an issue of DRM not working properly, not an issue of DRM being evil in itself.



I think the implicit deal with DRM is "we know you don't like it, but it helps stop the bad guys, protect both of our investments, and anyway you'll be able to easily access your products in perpetuity". Which is fine, but this action threatened the last part, hence the outrage. (sorry if I already posted this, I forget what I said where...)


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## germancomponist (Mar 13, 2020)

Where is the B4 organ??? I had bought the original library and it was soooooo good!?


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## dzilizzi (Mar 13, 2020)

chillbot said:


> Yes. But with something like timp, specifically, I'd rather have a sample I'm familiar with than something newer or different because in the end it's just timp.


If it is just the timp, have you thought about sampling the sample? Not practical with whole libraries, but one or a few might be worth doing. Of course, only if NI can't fix this.


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## Quasar (Mar 13, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> I think the implicit deal with DRM is "we know you don't like it, but it helps stop the bad guys, protect both of our investments, and anyway you'll be able to easily access your products in perpetuity". Which is fine, but this action threatened the last part, hence the outrage. (sorry if I already posted this, I forget what I said where...)



Even in some hypothetical universe where the DRM actually stopped the bad guys and protected investments - which everyone knows it does not - how would it protect the investment of the customer? As the buyer of the product, what exactly does DRM "protect" me from?

I am genuinely puzzled and curious about the nature of this assertion.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I mean, does anyone _really_ believe they’re going to get a lifetime of use when they buy something?



I do.

More than a million WAV files in my sample library absolutely WILL give me a lifetime of use. 

In my template right now is a sample I made on the Ensoniq Mirage more than thirty years ago. It's an important part of the sound of a billion-dollar movie franchise. (okay, we're at 982 million, but we'll get there in a couple months!) A "signature sound of the franchise" if you will. Sort of like the low grinding brass bends in Terminator 2 - you know 'em when you hear 'em. Because it's a WAV file I can deploy it as a chunk of an audio track or mapped across the keyboard in a sampler. Over the years it's been transported from the Mirage, to Emax I, Akai S-900, S-950, S-1000, S-1100, S-3000, E-Mu E4, SampleCell I, SampleCell II, and finally to EXS24.

It's very characteristic and recognizable and can't be reproduced or reverse engineered - it's a snapshot of a moment in time. Like a David LaChapelle photograph, you could spend a million dollars trying to duplicate it but even a child could tell that it's a fake.

Now, of course, since I made it, I have the right to freely deploy it and convert it as I see fit.

But how is my ownership of that sample different from the "license to use" I purchased for a few million other samples? What argument can be made that I don't have the right to deploy THOSE samples on whatever platform I choose?

It's all smooth sailing with locked-down Kontakt libraries and serial numbers and all that - until it isn't. And that's where we are today. Content for which a license to use was purchased - not rented, not "subscribed to", but purchased - is now being clawed back.

For me it's not such a big issue - it won't affect my future work on the billion-dollar (okay, 982 million dollar) movie franchise at all. But that's mainly because I don't trust software manufacturers or sample developers one bit. Too many are just selling photos of a house of cards that could collapse at any moment. And here's one of those moments. 

"But I'm safe, I've got a photo of the house of cards, and that's all I need." 

Until you look at that photo one day and the house of cards isn't in the photo anymore. All of a sudden it's a photo of a pile of cards on the floor. The photo you purchased to hang on your wall has changed while you weren't looking.

That's today's situation.

I know I didn't purchase all the rights to the photo of the house of cards - I can't sell copies to other people, I only purchased the right to gaze upon it hanging on my wall. But now they've come into my house and switched out the photo for one of a pile of cards on the floor. Or, more accurately, they made the switch as I moved the photo from one wall to another as I was installing new carpet. Even more accurately, as I carried the photo across the room to hang on the other wall, it magically changed from a photo of a house of cards to a solid blank white sheet. No image, just an empty frame. Should have left it hanging where it was I guess.

I know I can buy StormDrum or EWQLSO from East-West in the Play format, and the price isn't anything to be concerned about. It's not the price, it's the practice. The idea that the practice of retroactively clawing back purchased content is something we should all be okay with is a boiling-frog scenario.

In reality, none of the products on the NI death list really matter to me, or to most people who are churning purchases all the time. It's probably only an issue for some hobbyists and guys who have an older system all set up the way they like it and are still on XP or Snow Leopard and resistant to change. They just want to boot up their old version of Logic and B-4 after work and jam out. Sucks for them more than it does for the rest of us who are quite accustomed to getting an email announcing a crossgrade and just sighing and hitting the PayPal button.

But it ain't right, and I reject any argument that we should be okay with such practices.

If NI finds a way to work with the original sample developers and unlock those titles for original purchasers, great. That's the right thing to do and would inspire confidence on the part of their longest-running customers regarding the viability of future purchases of content reliant on their platform and authorization schemes. But if the door really does slam shut it will signal a big change in the perceived value of the licenses they want to sell us in the future. 

Is this the hill I want to die on? Hell no. Don't need to. Dug a tunnel under that hill many years ago. But not everyone has the time, energy, skills, and giant tunnel-boring-machine to do that. 

And it is for them that I fight! *raises fist and shakes it at cloud*


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> It's all smooth sailing with locked-down Kontakt libraries and serial numbers and all that - until it isn't. And that's where we are today. Content for which a license to use was purchased - not rented, not "subscribed to", but purchased - is now being clawed back.



^This.....well said. And we keep silently allowing it, this will become the norm.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 13, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Even in some hypothetical universe where the DRM actually stopped the bad guys and protected investments - which everyone knows it does not - how would it protect the investment of the customer? As the buyer of the product, what exactly does DRM "protect" me from?
> 
> I am genuinely puzzled and curious about the nature of this assertion.



The logic is (and I'll keep it brief as we probably fundamentally differ on DRM as a concept and you will likely disagree with these points)

DRM limits the availability of cracked / stolen software (I've heard now from multiple sources the hit once a DRM system is cracked is about 2/3rds reduction in revenue for the developer)
Without solid revenue, the developer can't keep developing
The customer will suffer as the developer can't do bug fixes / feature additions / ongoing OS compatibility for their products.

I really don't think its worth pursuing this one further here, as its off topic really.


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## Quasar (Mar 13, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> The logic is (and I'll keep it brief as we probably fundamentally differ on DRM as a concept and you will likely disagree with these points)
> 
> DRM limits the availability of cracked / stolen software (I've heard now from multiple sources the hit once a DRM system is cracked is about 2/3rds reduction in revenue for the developer)
> Without solid revenue, the developer can't keep developing
> ...


Thanks for responding to the question. I fully agree on both counts: that we fundamental differ on DRM, and that it is off topic here.


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## SupremeFist (Mar 13, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Even in some hypothetical universe where the DRM actually stopped the bad guys and protected investments - which everyone knows it does not


Actually what everyone knows is that iTunes saved the music industry from Napster.


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## d.healey (Mar 13, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Actually what everyone knows is that iTunes saved the music industry from Napster.


Didn't iTunes drop DRM and everything was fine?


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## SupremeFist (Mar 13, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Didn't iTunes drop DRM and everything was fine?


Later.


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## sin(x) (Mar 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> In reality, none of the products on the NI death list really matter to me, or to most people who are churning purchases all the time. It's probably only an issue for some hobbyists and guys who have an older system all set up the way they like it and are still on XP or Snow Leopard and resistant to change.



Aw man, you were doing great without the elitism. I have a small truckload of more recent percussion libraries at my disposal and guess what's still my go-to timpani? Right, EWQLSO. And there's more gems in there. Have them all nicely laid out in custom patches. Couldn't do that with Play, so why would I sidegrade. You think that makes me a luddite? Also, my Windows 7 installation is working perfectly fine and I just didn't get around to upgrading yet GET OFF MY BACK MOOOOOOM


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## charlieclouser (Mar 13, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> Aw man, you were doing great without the elitism. I have a small truckload of more recent percussion libraries at my disposal and guess what's still my go-to timpani? Right, EWQLSO. And there's more gems in there. Have them all nicely laid out in custom patches. Couldn't do that with Play, so why would I sidegrade. You think that makes me a luddite? Also, my Windows 7 installation is working perfectly fine and I just didn't get around to upgrading yet GET OFF MY BACK MOOOOOOM



Well, I was just trying to make the point that for most who are working and earning and relying upon the Kontakt version of EWQLSO or whatever, that contingency plans would surely have been at least contemplated by now. I haven't cross graded to Play versions, because I implemented a contingency plan many years ago, and anyone who's elbow-deep in this stuff on the daily will be thinking about how to get out from under. It's more the civilians out there who will feel the pain, because maybe they don't have the mechanism, time, assistants, whatever, to get this stuff running down the road. I feel for the weekend warrior who just wants to jam out on B-4 and will be sad when it goes away along with all his custom patches.

Didn't mean to sound elitist, quite the opposite - I was trying to express sympathy for those who don't wrestle with these issues on the daily and who might not have already figured out how to move forward.

For me and others in my position it's just one more on a list of thousands of problems to solve - if it means buying yet another used Mac on FleaBay just to run EWQLSO tympani, so be it. But not everyone wants to swallow that bitter pill. I just figure that for someone like me, if a problem requires expenditure of time and money, it's the price you pay, just another speed bump, and it won't wreck my suspension if I take it at speed. But that's not the case for everyone, so I was trying to express solidarity with those for whom it might shake something loose in their chassis.


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## Monkey Man (Mar 13, 2020)

GNP said:


> As much as I _try_ to pay for everything now, piracy is still our friend, especially in situations like this.


_Try? _


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## sin(x) (Mar 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> For me and others in my position it's just one more on a list of thousands of problems to solve - if it means buying yet another used Mac on FleaBay just to run EWQLSO tympani, so be it.



Except… if you can't… get it… activated… ok I'll see myself out


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## chillbot (Mar 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I was just trying to make the point that for most who are working and earning and relying upon the Kontakt version of EWQLSO or whatever, that contingency plans would surely have been at least contemplated by now.


Actually why would I have thought about it? It's always just worked fine in Kontakt for me, shows up in Native Access, and I didn't think Kontakt was going anywhere. Well anyway you're partly correct... I'll just get my very smart assistant to deal with it, ha!


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## charlieclouser (Mar 13, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> Except… if you can't… get it… activated… ok I'll see myself out



Yeah, exactly. It would mean panic-buying another 2006 Mac Mini off FleaBay or UsedMac.com, getting Snow Leopard or whatever installed in a hurry (got all the CD-ROMs right here), and getting EWQLSO authorized before the cutoff date in a couple months. Doable, but.... hassle. I could justify that as the cost of doing business, but not everyone might be so quick to bite the PayPal bullet for yet another $600 expense just to avoid future hassles.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 13, 2020)

chillbot said:


> I'll just get my very smart assistant to deal with it, ha!



I wish I had an assistant to deal with all the conversions and chaos....


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## dzilizzi (Mar 13, 2020)

I asked my assistant to deal with it and he just whooshed his tail, gave me a look, said meow in a "you've got to be kidding me" way, and left the room. Guess it's not happening....

Sigh.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 13, 2020)

chillbot said:


> I'll just get my very smart assistant to deal with it, ha!


Hey, I need an assistant like that!


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## charlieclouser (Mar 13, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> Aw man, you were doing great without the elitism. I have a small truckload of more recent percussion libraries at my disposal and guess what's still my go-to timpani? Right, EWQLSO.



Hey, I'm the same as you, man.... I have a little bass drum roll and bendy tympani roll from Percussive Adventures v1 that I use in every freaking cue. I've been using them so long that I use them to calibrate the levels on my stem limiters! Velocity 100 and channel fader at -6 results in stem level of -9. I need those samples to be there when I wake up in the morning, and since they're just dumb WAV files, they are.

So we should all be equally pissed and panicked that EWQLSO for Kontakt might (is?) going away forever.

And I love those EWQLSO tympani samples too. And those french horns bends. And the trombones bends. And the violins wide vibratos. And the french horns wide vibratos. And the violins sul pont tremolo. Aww geez I made myself sad.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I mean, does anyone _really_ believe they’re going to get a lifetime of use when they buy something?





charlieclouser said:


> I do.
> 
> ...
> 
> ... I don't trust software manufacturers or sample developers one bit.


 I think we're on the same page here.

After countless products I bought that no longer work, I stand by my position that it's crazy to believe we're going to get a lifetime of use from anything. Companies go under (Latigo and then Keymap are my top 2 "big losses"), or technical specs make things impossible (Mac going to Intel is why Atmosphere became a no go), or yearly updates become not worth it anymore.

So I don't trust software manufacturers or sample developers one bit, either. Not because they're evil (in most cases, quite the opposite), but because "things happen." Even NI is not immune and could go bankrupt or be bought by Apple. (Although they're still higher on my trust list that most other sample platforms. Even after this.)

I guess my point was this - There was a technical issue why NI felt the need to discontinue supporting certain instruments. Had that technical issue been a normal technical issue like Mac going from Motorola chips to Intel chips, then the uproar would have been a lot quieter, since everybody understands that "things happen" and nothing lasts forever. Those of us who actually use EWQLSO and the like already have our workarounds, so we'd be annoyed, but those of us who go back that far are big boys and girls, so we know that eventually the old stuff gets discontinued. (Need I make a list?  )

But since that "technical issue" involves copy protection, which is a very hot topic (and has gotten me tagged thrice as people try to convince me not to do CP if I do a custom player), that little detail changes everything, and is the difference between a 3 page thread and a 23 page thread. Same effect on what it actually means to us, but those two words turn an annoyance into an OMG. Ultimately, it's still just an annoyance, though, since Matt will still have his timpani for years and years to come, and as for me, even if I can't authorize B4 anymore (my favorite organ), I can't get the installer to work on anything past Yosemite anyway, so that's what the Mac Minis are for.


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## Andrew Aversa (Mar 13, 2020)

The workaround of just keeping an old computer running the software isn't a good one. Computers die. Hard drives are the first thing to go, but motherboards and CPUs can certainly fail as well. In the last 10 years I've had two motherboards fail. Power surges or faulty power supplies can also lead to component failure. And if you're using a laptop, there's a much higher chance of failure due to spills, physical impacts, etc.

Even assuming you backed up the data, if you have to change the CPU or motherboard, then all of a sudden your stuff might get de-authorized, and guess what? Now you can't re-authorize it.

The ONLY workaround here that is 100% foolproof is @charlieclouser 's approach of manually converting the stuff you need, which is absolutely not feasible for many people that don't have the resources or knowledge to do it.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I think we're on the same page here.
> 
> After countless products I bought that no longer work, I stand by my position that it's crazy to believe we're going to get a lifetime of use from anything. Companies go under (Latigo and then Keymap are my top 2 "big losses"), or technical specs make things impossible (Mac going to Intel is why Atmosphere became a no go), or yearly updates become not worth it anymore.
> 
> ...




I think the issue that both sides cant agree on is what they’re purchasing and what level of reassurance they should have in the purchase‘s future usability. Its been said often here that if it still works on their system, then why shouldnt they be able to use it? Its kind of like saying a nintendo switch has the technical capability to run an NES game so why cant they just boot it up and play it? Technically you can, but there is no reason for the developers to officially condone that behavior, encourage or support the endeavor. When a product is deemed officially discontinued and/or abandoned its natural lifespan has ended. No one is obligatd to support it anymore, including the authorization portion of it. It’s not like they set up Native Access to find those libraries and delete them from our computers. You CAN use it, but they dont have to keep spending time and money making sure you can use a product that has no more official support. 

I mean i understand why people are upset at the prospect, but they should really get used to the idea that one day their favorite libraries will expire. They should take steps to figure out what they want to do. It’s difficult, but resampling is one option. Another designated system is one. They could work on an open source player for this. The options are there, but instead its easier to paint NI as the bad guy. 

I think this anti CP/DRM stuff Is bad for the future of our community and business, if we dont try and meet in the middle and consider the true financial needs of a developer. We should have open discussions with developers about their plans and needs. You absolutely should be concerned about your products, because the scariest trend I see is not the CP stuff but rather a lot of developers deciding to push out A LOT of libraries, that are getting less and less support over time until they‘re quietly phased out or replaced with a paid version upgrade. It obviously doesnt pay to maintain libraries anymore, and the lifespan of these libraries will continue to shorten, and whether its business reasons, or system reasons, all your old libraries are at risk regardless of whether its kontakt or a third party player (why is play so bad btw?). If you dont care about supporting developers that help pull this community together, you‘re shooting yourself in the foot because they’ll give up. 

This is exactly what happened with the ios App Store where a lot of apps were abandoned because the math didn’t add up, and when the only reasonable solution for them became subscriptions (that nasty word here) people lost their mind and now the best apps are all going away or are locked behind high price subscription models. I mean..couldn’t there be a slight possibility that a lot of people at NI are like Matt and really mean to do well for their customers and community? Maybe they just have a few more considerations that we dont know about that make our 100% satisfaction impossible. Let’s meet in the middle.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 13, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> The workaround of just keeping an old computer running the software isn't a good one. Computers die. Hard drives are the first thing to go, but motherboards and CPUs can certainly fail as well. In the last 10 years I've had two motherboards fail. Power surges or faulty power supplies can also lead to component failure. And if you're using a laptop, there's a much higher chance of failure due to spills, physical impacts, etc.
> 
> Even assuming you backed up the data, if you have to change the CPU or motherboard, then all of a sudden your stuff might get de-authorized, and guess what? Now you can't re-authorize it.
> 
> The ONLY workaround here that is 100% foolproof is @charlieclouser 's approach of manually converting the stuff you need, which is absolutely not feasible for many people that don't have the resources or knowledge to do it.



Exactly. Even though I've converted a tiny subset of my purchases (for the most part it's only the stuff that's actually been used on a long-lived project), many of those conversions were done many years ago, using tools and techniques which aren't currently available at any price. If you don't already have Redmatica KeyMap and AudioFileEngineering's SampleManager installed and running on an older-OS system, there's just no way to get it up and running today. Even though I have a bunch of older computers frozen in time with old OS versions and software installs, the practicality of converting big orchestral anything into other formats is not.... a reasonable thing. For the most part I've given up, but if I do get a Kontakt library that requires "full version of Kontakt" the first thing I do is batch convert from NCW to WAV and attempt a run through Translator. If it works, great. If it doesn't, I stash the WAVs until I feel like switch-booting to my old OS drive and spending a weekend staring at SampleManager and KeyMap. It's not easy, it's not pretty, and half the reason I even still bother is just because there's a small chance of success, and it's a challenge - like, I'm not going to be beaten by this technology, I shall bend it to my will or die trying!

While I wouldn't hesitate to try and re-sample a relatively simple instrument like EWQLSO tympani, going further is a real challenge and unless the samples in question are used in the main titles to The X-Files or something, nobody in their right mind would attempt it.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 13, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Why?


For the same reasons as Guy outlined a few posts back, more eloquently than I can.

I think I'm probably on the opposite side to the mob this time around, so I'll keep my trap shut as I should be working. I will say this though: All software dies, be it via a obsolete DRM system or otherwise. The only exception to the rule (as @charlieclouser knows) is the little green zombie that is ESX24. Long may it rule over the lesser, johnny come lately samplers.


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

I think a really good question for NI would be:

"If you were to go out of business, what contingency plans have you made to ensure that all of your customers can continue to use your products? Can all products be converted to a serial number based activation, or some other method that allows for the customer to reinstall the product if it becomes necessary?"

I'd really like to know if they have any contingency plans like that. Otherwise, there's a built in hubris that basically renders the customers' needs worthless.


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> When I’m at NAMM, I’ll hear at least a half dozen people shake their heads and start a sentence with the words, _“Man, sometimes those guys at VI-Control…”_ No offense, but with words like "theft" and "immoral" being thrown about, I think this is one of those threads they’re referring to.


If someone disables a product you use remotely, that you have bought and use, and that you then have to replace paying hundreds of dollars for, what word other than theft do you think fits?

This is not about tarring and feathering NI (at least from my perspective). I love the products and I use them. Hell, I'm still learning how to use them.

It's about fundamental fairness and basic rights. The customer bought the product. you can't just turn it off because it's inconvenient or difficult.

I don't care if you're a developer - I like you by the way - but theft is very much the right word.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> I think a really good question for NI would be:
> 
> "If you were to go out of business, what contingency plans have you made to ensure that all of your customers can continue to use your products? Can all products be converted to a serial number based activation, or some other method that allows for the customer to reinstall the product if it becomes necessary?"
> 
> I'd really like to know if they have any contingency plans like that. Otherwise, there's a built in hubris that basically renders the customers' needs worthless.



for NI products that's a fair question. For third party products? that's a question for the developer.

and it should be noted...they're not remotely disabling your product, but they are stopping the authorization service...that is a key difference. They aren't locking you out of currently installed versions.

[EDIT: nevermind..no one cares about that distinction.]


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I think the issue that both sides cant agree on is what they’re purchasing and what level of reassurance they should have in the purchase‘s future usability.


This^

Most who buy libraries are under the impression they are buying them, not renting them. I won't keep beating this drum after this, but THIS is the issue.



> When a product is deemed officially discontinued and/or abandoned its natural lifespan has ended. No one is obligatd to support it anymore, including the authorization portion of it. It’s not like they set up Native Access to find those libraries and delete them from our computers. You CAN use it, but they dont have to keep spending time and money making sure you can use a product that has no more official support.


Again, THIS^

What constitutes the "natural lifespan" of a product - when the developer stops supporting it, we're no longer allowed to activate it ever again?

There was nothing in the EULA that I'm aware of that stated "at some hitherto unknown point in the future we reserve the right to stop allowing activations of the software for whatever reasons we deem necessary."

HAD this been stated as such, many would not have bought at all; some would have bought but figured out ways around CP, and others would just shrug their shoulders because they knew this day was coming.

We did not know this day was coming - that NI would just decide not to allow further activations after a particular date. This is, in fact, the issue.


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## Monkey Man (Mar 13, 2020)

Indeed, and the analogy of the Power PC->Intel switch by Apple, as expressed here earlier, isn't a fair one.

Hardware changes are one thing, but wholesale "delicensing", which is effectively what this is IMHO, is quite another.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Most who buy libraries are under the impression they are buying them, not renting them. I won't keep beating this drum after this, but THIS is the issue.
> 
> 
> Again, THIS^
> ...



This could use clarification, I will concede that. I know some of the software I use is authorized on the developer's servers, and some of them have gone under and I've lost the ability to reinstall them. Again, if its NI's libraries, they should address this and offer a plan, but if it's a third-party developer who discontinued a product, the issue really should be with them more than NI. Just because its discontinued doesn't mean that you automatically lose authorization immediately. obviously there are tons of retired libraries not on this list...but discontinued should clearly mean, future support, compatibility, and usability is limited at best, and the natural lifespan of the library moving forward is subject to your system and hardware compatibility as well as server/service changes. If the developer doesn't make it clear enough, they should clearly state what discontinued means to the future of that product, because I don't know how much NI really can say about 3rd party libraries support. Ideally, the devs would have figured out a better way to retire the project that future proofs it from Kontakt.


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## Thundercat (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> This could use clarification, I will concede that. I know some of the software I use is authorized on the developer's servers, and some of them have gone under and I've lost the ability to reinstall them. Again, if its NI's libraries, they should address this and offer a plan, but if it's a third-party developer who discontinued a product, the issue really should be with them more than NI. Just because its discontinued doesn't mean that you automatically lose authorization immediately. obviously there are tons of retired libraries not on this list...but discontinued should clearly mean, future support, compatibility, and usability is limited at best, and the natural lifespan of the library moving forward is subject to your system and hardware compatibility as well as server/service changes. If the developer doesn't make it clear enough, they should clearly state what discontinued means to the future of that product, because I don't know how much NI really can say about 3rd party libraries support. Ideally, the devs would have figured out a better way to retire the project that future proofs it from Kontakt.


Totally agree.

and I also agree with your overall conciliatory sentiment to respect the devs and not paint NI as evil.

again totally agree. They’re good folks.

I think the thrust of this thread stems from a general sense of outrage and helplessness against corporate bureaucracy that negatively affects our lives without due process and often without fairness.

NI have shown themselves decent and fair in addressing this here with us.

let’s hope for a fair resolution.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 13, 2020)

I wonder if there's any crossover here:

I've never owned a commercial studio but I have rented out a room in one complex or another since my partner's business folded in 2003. For the past two years, I've moved into my home and created a studio there.

In both situations, I've had steady clients over the years who come to wherever I am and hire me as a recordist, an engineer, musician, singer, producer, any of the above. Their files reside on my computer during the time I record them. However, I make it clear to all that what they walk away with is what they get, and not to count on me keeping mixes or individual tracks in perpetuity. I may indeed have them, but I do not guarantee it. I encourage them to pay me to make them a thumb drive that includes all individual files, mixes and sub-mixes. I'm perfectly willing to order a HD for them and do the same. I encourage them to copy the thumb drive to their own systems. However, when they leave the studio with whatever files they want. that's the limit of my responsibility. 

My clients can disagree with my policy, but they can't complain about its lack of clarity, and I would understand if they didn't want to work with me because of it.

A bit of a stretch to make the connection, but if N.I. had said they were granting me temporary licenses to all of the products that I purchased from them (and there's a bunch), I never would have bought anything from them.


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## Quasar (Mar 13, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> This could use clarification, I will concede that. I know some of the software I use is authorized on the developer's servers, and some of them have gone under and I've lost the ability to reinstall them. Again, if its NI's libraries, they should address this and offer a plan, but if it's a third-party developer who discontinued a product, the issue really should be with them more than NI. Just because its discontinued doesn't mean that you automatically lose authorization immediately. obviously there are tons of retired libraries not on this list...but discontinued should clearly mean, future support, compatibility, and usability is limited at best, and the natural lifespan of the library moving forward is subject to your system and hardware compatibility as well as server/service changes. If the developer doesn't make it clear enough, they should clearly state what discontinued means to the future of that product, because I don't know how much NI really can say about 3rd party libraries support. Ideally, the devs would have figured out a better way to retire the project that future proofs it from Kontakt.



Except that 3rd-party full Kontakt libraries are never an issue. They will run as long as you have a compatible full Kontakt version, period. 3rd-party Player Libraries, on the other hand, must be activated via NI (now, alas Native Access) because those devs have paid substantial fees to NI for the privilege of running on the free Player and whatever other licensing "protection" NI offers. I don't know the business side of it, nor do I care, but it would seem that NI has a responsibility for the 3rd-party libraries they were paid to facilitate.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 13, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> For the same reasons as Guy outlined a few posts back, more eloquently than I can.
> 
> I think I'm probably on the opposite side to the mob this time around, so I'll keep my trap shut as I should be working. I will say this though: All software dies, be it via a obsolete DRM system or otherwise. The only exception to the rule (as @charlieclouser knows) is the little green zombie that is ESX24. Long may it rule over the lesser, johnny come lately samplers.



Yup. And it's also reassuring to see that as Apple adds newer sampling features to Logic, like Drummer, even those are based on the EXS engine. Although the front panel still looks like 2001, under the hood they've added things like Articulation ID, so I am cautiously optimistic that my files will be readable for a while.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> even if I can't authorize B4 anymore (my favorite organ), I can't get the installer to work on anything past Yosemite anyway, so that's what the Mac Minis are for.



See that's one thing that is despicable about Mac. There is no real reason for that not to be possible other than Apple's planned obsolescence scheme. 

Meanwhile Atmosphere can still be installed on Windows


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## NYC Composer (Mar 13, 2020)

The thing I hate the most about Apple is all my zombie machines that won’t die. I have a G4, a G5, a 2008 Mac Pro, a 2008 MacBook, a 2012 Mac Mini, an iPhone 3 and 6, an iPad 1 and an iPad 3-all in working condition. Despicable.


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## Uiroo (Mar 14, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> The thing I hate the most about Apple is all my zombie machines that won’t die. I have a G4, a G5, a 2008 Mac Pro, a 2008 MacBook, a 2012 Mac Mini, an iPhone 3 and 6, an iPad 1 and an iPad 3-all in working condition. Despicable.


Ah, he got ya triggered


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## gamma-ut (Mar 14, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> I think a really good question for NI would be:
> 
> "If you were to go out of business, what contingency plans have you made to ensure that all of your customers can continue to use your products? Can all products be converted to a serial number based activation, or some other method that allows for the customer to reinstall the product if it becomes necessary?"
> 
> I'd really like to know if they have any contingency plans like that. Otherwise, there's a built in hubris that basically renders the customers' needs worthless.



NI has effectively already answered that. In their earlier EULAs, they claimed there would be a contingency plan for this. This episode has demonstrated that, in fact, there is no contingency plan but they've finally got around to thinking about it because people have reminded them of their earlier promise. But, as it stands, there is no such contingency plan.


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## SupremeFist (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Its kind of like saying a nintendo switch has the technical capability to run an NES game so why cant they just boot it up and play it? Technically you can, but there is no reason for the developers to officially condone that behavior, encourage or support the endeavor.


In this case it's more like you have a working Wii and games but Nintendo has remotely flipped a switch that literally prevents you inserting the cartridge into the console and playing it.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I think this anti CP/DRM stuff Is bad for the future of our community and business, if we dont try and meet in the middle and consider the true financial needs of a developer. We should have open discussions with developers about their plans and needs.



Is your contribution to this thread an endless succession of strawmen arguments?

How many people have said "you can't use copy protection" in this thread?

The point is that NI's choices over copy protection and the fact they apparently never considered how they were going to deliver on an earlier promise to provide a permanent activation key in the event they could not keep their remote-activation system going are what have led here. I don't think there are many on this thread who think NI should not use CP, but they are asking NI to simply provide the means to use tools for which people have paid in the event that an old hard drive or a mobo keels over and needs replacing. How is that not meeting in the middle?

People do the same to hardware synths all the time because the firmware isn't checking to see whether it's moved to a new machine. There is fundamentally no good reason why an old software synth or sample library should go kaput simply because you've done your best to repair the thing.

There are occasions when old projects need revisiting. Would you prefer to remake that project because you can no longer access a tool simply because its CP is borked (not because the underlying code is broken) or just open up the one you have in order to get there?


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 14, 2020)

It should be noted that while you can't install Atmosphere on a new Mac, you can access its sounds by installing Omnisphere. I consider this yet another reason to buy Spectrasonics products. 

Similarly, soon to be unsupported Hardcore Bass XP Kontakt users can buy Ministry of Rock 2 to access Hardcore Bass XP sounds in Play. The main difference being that while almost anyone would consider Omnispere to be an improvement over Atmosphere, few would consider Play to be an improvement over Kontakt. 

Best,

Geoff


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## Ivan M. (Mar 14, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> Given that they are doing this on such a wide scale, my guess is that they are building new copy protection into all current products and plan to upgrade entirely the license management...and didn't want to spend time and resources updating those old products (fair enough)...nor maintain two separate licensing systems for the old and the new.
> 
> I tend to agree with some they could have somehow enabled some offline installation method that could last as long as the OS can support running the software.
> 
> B4 is finally going away...



Yet another example of the copy protection system hurting honest paying customers the most.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> Is your contribution to this thread an endless succession of strawmen arguments?
> 
> How many people have said "you can't use copy protection" in this thread?


[

Actually it’s come up quite a few times here that CP shouldn’t be and that it’s of no concern to the end user and if I recall correctly “only benefits developers” or something to that effect.

I’ve beat my head on this drum long enough for everyone I’m sure, but the idea that NI flipped a switch locking you out of your currenty supported software is misleading and false. People are implying that NI’s choice here is the equivalent to banning you from your current libraries and keeping you from using them ever again. I understand the current situation of “you can still use it, but there is no future authorization support” is not satisfactory to many people, not because of what’s on this list but because they think it’s a sign of terror to come. So from where I stand, a fair amount of people here are misrepresenting the current situation, and another fair number of people are hijacking this incident to make it sound like NI is disabling your current active libraries when they are not and there is reasonable cause for them to decide to discontinue support for discontinued libraries.

Anyways, they’re working on it over there talking out options. I don’t expect a totally satisfactory solution for those who are freaked out, but I also doubt people will give up on kontakt any time soon. So good luck either way.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> In this case it's more like you have a working Wii and games but Nintendo has remotely flipped a switch that literally prevents you inserting the cartridge into the console and playing it.



probably shouldn’t touch on the fact that something like this actually happenes in gaming already...


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## sin(x) (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> probably shouldn’t touch on the fact that something like this actually happenes in gaming already...



Probably shouldn't point out to you that games aren't professional tools that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars and are integral to people's livelihoods either. Yet here we are.

Also, in which universe does that mitigate the shittiness on either side?


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> Probably shouldn't point out to you that games aren't professional tools that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars and are integral to people's livelihoods either. Yet here we are.
> 
> Also, in which universe does that mitigate the shittiness on either side?



shittiness is a subjective term here. I was thinking about the case of a racing game that was on consoles that got pulled from the online stores because the licensing agreement for the cars featured in the game ran out. Meaning anyone who had it on their console could still play, but if they ever switched consoles they'd never get that game back. It's a shitty circumstance, but there were legal reasons why the distributors couldn't keep the game up even if people paid for it. It's a shitty situation, but it wasn't a malicious act to steal the money of paying customers. It's actually equally disappointing when considering some people pay hundreds of dollars for in-game content that they'll never see again, like the many retired MMO games that go under and shut their servers. 

I get it, some believe we're paying for perpetuity. I believe we're paying for a license/service that comes with an expiration date. That's where we are.


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## sin(x) (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I was thinking about the case of a racing game that was on consoles that got pulled from the online stores because the licensing agreement for the cars featured in the game ran out. Meaning anyone who had it on their console could still play, but if they ever switched consoles they'd never get that game back.



Do you have a title? What usually happens when a game gets pulled is that you can't buy it anymore, but anyone who already has it in their accounts can still re-download it from the distribution service indefinitely. There are probably fringe cases and I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's how I've witnessed it a bunch of times with Steam, PSN, GOG etc. Anything else would strike me as just as legally dubious and anti-consumer as this case, just on a smaller scale.


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## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> games aren't professional tools that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars and are integral to people's livelihoods either.


Totally off topic but... As unlikely as it may sound there are an increasing number of people who make their living playing video games.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> Do you have a title? What usually happens when a game gets pulled is that you can't buy it anymore, but anyone who already has it in their accounts can still re-download it from the distribution service indefinitely. There are probably fringe cases and I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's how I've witnessed it a bunch of times with Steam, PSN, GOG etc. Anything else would strike me as just as legally dubious and anti-consumer as this case, just on a smaller scale.




Deadpool and a number of other marvel/Activision games were pulled because the license expired. I think some people might still be able to download it on steam if they bought it while it was available, but console gamers are shit out of luck. If I recall Driveclub and Out Run Online Arcade were some racers that were pulled over licenses expiring though in those cases I'm not sure if previous owners can still download or not.


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## MartinH. (Mar 14, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> Do you have a title? What usually happens when a game gets pulled is that you can't buy it anymore, but anyone who already has it in their accounts can still re-download it from the distribution service indefinitely. There are probably fringe cases and I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's how I've witnessed it a bunch of times with Steam, PSN, GOG etc. Anything else would strike me as just as legally dubious and anti-consumer as this case, just on a smaller scale.





Spoiler



A bit offtopic, so I'll just leave those video links here. The guy with the hat is an actual lawyer, but I didn't watch these specific videos I think.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 14, 2020)

Geoff Grace said:


> The main difference being that while almost anyone would consider Omnispere to be an improvement over Atmosphere, few would consider Play to be an improvement over Kontakt.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Over the full version of Kontakt, perhaps not, but we are talking about the free player versions of Kontakt that these libraries run in, and IMHO, Play is significantly better.A simple screenshot of their mixers, ease of output assignment, and moving the libraries to another drive are among my reasons.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 14, 2020)

I never got around to finishing converting the whole EWQLSO Platinum XP from multis to individual NKIs that have all mic positions in, purgable, and routable to any available output.

Just got the "Large String Ensemble" folder converted. There's 925 multis to do over, and I just did 7 of them, heh.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> A bit offtopic, so I'll just leave those video links here. The guy with the hat is an actual lawyer, but I didn't watch these specific videos I think.




interesting dialogue here


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## rrichard63 (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I believe we're paying for a license/service that comes with an expiration date.


In that case, shouldn't the expiration date be stated in the EULA?


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> In that case, shouldn't the expiration date be stated in the EULA?



my interpretation of the "expiration date" is up until the point when the product is officially discontinued/abandoned.


sorry for the caps but this is the common warranty I am finding from various developers: this is spitfire (



Spoiler: warranty



18. Warranties. TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED UNDER APPLICABLE LAW IN YOUR TERRITORY, ALL SPITFIRE AUDIO PRODUCTS AND SERVICES ARE PROVIDED ON AN *"AS IS"* AND *"AS AVAILABLE"* BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR THE WARRANTY OF NON-INFRINGEMENT. WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, SPITFIRE AUDIO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT (A) THE SERVICES WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, (B) *THE SERVICES WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE,* (C) THE RESULTS OBTAINED FROM THE USE OF THE SERVICES WILL BE EFFECTIVE, ACCURATE OR RELIABLE, OR (D) THE QUALITY OF ANY MATERIALS OR SERVICES OBTAINED BY YOU FROM THE SITE, FROM US, OR FROM ANY THIRD PARTIES' WEBSITES TO WHICH THE SITE IS LINKED, WILL MEET YOUR EXPECTATIONS OR BE FREE FROM MISTAKES, ERRORS OR DEFECTS. THE USE OF THE SERVICES IS AT YOUR OWN RISK AND WITH YOUR AGREEMENT THAT YOU WILL BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE TO YOUR COMPUTER DEVICE OR SYSTEM OR LOSS OF DATA THAT RESULTS FROM SUCH ACTIVITIES.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 14, 2020)

Now I need to figure out how change all my ncw files to wav before Spitfire quits supporting them. Good thing I picked up that 12 TB storage drive.

Seriously though, I'm thinking it probably is a great idea to change all those library files from ncw to wav if at all possible. And hopefully I will never need them. Also, I'm starting to love 8dio even more, along with others who only make full Kontakt libraries.

Edit: I can't write before I've had coffee


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## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Seriously though, I'm thinking it probably is a great idea to change all those library files from ncw to wav if at all possible.








I don't think it works if the library is locked, although it might work with a cracked version of Kontakt.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 14, 2020)

There's Collect samples option in Kontakt's options (floppy disk icon on top toolbar). But it can only work with non-Kontakt Player libraries.

@d.healey It doesn't work in cracked version for KP stuff, either. IIRC it only really worked for really old libraries.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 14, 2020)

Thanks @d.healey and @EvilDragon 

I'm sure half of my libraries are going to be locked. And it probably isn't a big issue any time soon for most of them. But it is good to know how to do it.


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## robgb (Mar 14, 2020)

Just looked at my list of products on NI. I've got a lot of those about to be history forever. Thing is, despite all my griping, I no longer use Intakt or Kompakt or Absynth 2, etc. Probably haven't for ten years.

That said, if I owned the Kontakt version of East West orchestra or Chris Hein Brass (old version?), I'm pretty sure I'd still be using it and wanting to continue to use it if I changed computers. Which leads me to think that NI will inadvertently make some composers turn to a cracked version of Kontakt. It's my understanding that the cracked versions will allow you to load anything. I could be wrong.

Why on earth would a company want to make that alternative an attractive one?


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

robgb said:


> Just looked at my list of products on NI. I've got a lot of those about to be history forever. Thing is, despite all my griping, I no longer use Intakt or Kompakt or Absynth 2, etc. Probably haven't for ten years.
> 
> That said, if I owned the Kontakt version of East West orchestra or Chris Hein Brass (old version?), I'm pretty sure I'd still be using it and wanting to continue to use it if I changed computers. Which leads me to think that NI will inadvertently make some composers turn to a cracked version of Kontakt. It's my understanding that the cracked versions will allow you to load anything. I could be wrong.
> 
> Why on earth would a company want to make that alternative an attractive one?



maybe a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't. I get the impression that they're trying to do whatever is legal in this case, but also avoid extra troubles...perhaps financial, or manpower problems, or just issues with old products and too much time spent fixing stuff they didn't make (in the case of 3rd party)....whatever it is... I doubt they were happy to make the decision.


----------



## gamma-ut (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> [
> 
> Actually it’s come up quite a few times here that CP shouldn’t be and that it’s of no concern to the end user and if I recall correctly “only benefits developers” or something to that effect.
> 
> ...



I give up. I've repeatedly set out my concerns. All you do is reply with "well, these other people said this thing and it's wrong".

What do you get out of it?


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> I give up. I've repeatedly set out my concerns. All you do is reply with "well, these other people said this thing and it's wrong".
> 
> What do you get out of it?



look, I don't know what you're looking for, accusing me of strawman arguments and saying that I'm referencing "these other people" when your previous statement said 

"I don't think there are many on this thread who think NI should not use CP, but they are asking NI to simply provide the means to use tools for which people have paid in the event that an old hard drive or a mobo keels over and needs replacing. How is that not meeting in the middle?"

I responded to that, and you don't like what I'm saying, which of course you're free to disagree with. So our thing here cant be reconciled. you and I disagree on a fundamental point. You think that NI is breaking a promise to provide support up to a certain level, which I think is excessive. We fundamentally disagree on this part. based on the EULA and warranties of NI and many 3rd parties I see it differently. You think their practices hurt consumer confidence (I assume), and I think this excessive standard hurts the community of devs moving forward. clear enough?


----------



## Quasar (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> You think that NI is breaking a promise to provide support up to a certain level, which I think is excessive.



I'm trying to wrap my head around your sentence, quoted above... How can either the breaking or the keeping of a promise be "excessive"? The word excessive is a comparative, which involves matters of degree, whereas the keeping of a promise is like a binary on/off switch. One either keeps one's promise or one does not.

So, rationally, you can either believe or disbelieve that NI's announcement constitutes the breaking of a promise, but it doesn't exist on a continuum.


----------



## gamma-ut (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> look, I don't know what you're looking for, accusing me of strawman arguments and saying that I'm referencing "these other people" when your previous statement said
> 
> "I don't think there are many on this thread who think NI should not use CP, but they are asking NI to simply provide the means to use tools for which people have paid in the event that an old hard drive or a mobo keels over and needs replacing. How is that not meeting in the middle?"



You didn't respond to that point. You created a separate argument about people believing NI was taking away their ability to do something immediately.

"People are implying that NI’s choice here is the equivalent to banning you from your current libraries and keeping you from using them ever again."


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

Quasar said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around your sentence, quoted above... How can either the breaking or the keeping of a promise be "excessive"? The word excessive is a comparative, which involves matters of degree, whereas the keeping of a promise is like a binary on/off switch. One either keeps one's promise or one does not.
> 
> So, rationally, you can either believe or disbelieve that NI's announcement constitutes the breaking of a promise, but it doesn't exist on a continuum.




the excessive part is the perpetuity idea. Many here have said they believe that for as long as they have a system that can run the library, NI should support the product (at the least including the authorization service). That's the degree many here have said they believe in. 

Spitfire, and many other software's own warranties say they do not guarantee your product will work forever. So the degree you don't want to acknowledge, is that a discontinued product no longer guarantees your ability to continued use. Your active warranty for many of your current libraries likely already says the product is "as is", or "as available", with no guarantee of "merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose, and that there is no guarantee the service will be uninterrupted, timely, secure or error-free."

It's not a customer-first, consumer-friendly stance, I get that, but it's a necessary legal standard to protect themselves, and as a user, you agreed to the terms.


----------



## RonOrchComp (Mar 14, 2020)

I know I am the new guy around here. but I'd like to point something out if I may. Apologies if this has been said already; I have not read every post in this thread.

There seems to be a feeling that NI (and 3rd part devs) do not need to support their products forever, that they at some point, have the right to say, "sorry - we won't support this legacy product anymore". That is correct - they have that right.

There needs to be a distinction tho, I believe, between support and license activation. They are not one and the same.

Refusing to support a product is one thing; refusing to allow end users the ability to activate is something else. Especially when the EULA specifically states that there is no time restriction.


----------



## robgb (Mar 14, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> There needs to be a distinction tho, I believe, between support and license activation. They are not one and the same.
> 
> Refusing to support a product is one thing; refusing to allow end users the ability to activate is something else.


THIS.


----------



## robgb (Mar 14, 2020)

When do we start the debate about the "right to repair?" which is being taken away by some major tech and hardware companies?


----------



## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

robgb said:


> When do we start the debate about the "right to repair?" which is being taken away by some major tech and hardware companies?


About to be made a requirement in the EU - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49884827


----------



## rrichard63 (Mar 14, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> There needs to be a distinction tho, I believe, between support and license activation. They are not one and the same.


Exactly. Well said.


----------



## Quasar (Mar 14, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> *There needs to be a distinction tho, I believe, between support and license activation. They are not one and the same.
> 
> Refusing to support a product is one thing; refusing to allow end users the ability to activate is something else. Especially when the EULA specifically states that there is no time restriction.*


You caught the essence of the argument concisely and perfectly. Well said!


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> You didn't respond to that point. You created a separate argument about people believing NI was taking away their ability to do something immediately.
> 
> "People are implying that NI’s choice here is the equivalent to banning you from your current libraries and keeping you from using them ever again."



I replied to the statements below that imply that NI is bricking libraries for no reason. People can still use their libraries on their current authorized machines, but they cannot authorize on new machines. They are not just automatically bricking your installed library. that is a valid distinction to make.





Spoiler: Flipping the "Switch"



d.healey: "When the cull occurs on the 31st will existing installations stop working? Will users be unable to install the software on a new machine?"

Dex: "
Dafuq? Why? How hard could it possibly be to keep the activation code for these products active?
It's bullshit that 20 years from now none of your current VIs will be usable _even if the companies that made them are still around."_

Stringtree: "The issue is that viable sound libraries that I paid honest money for are bricked. Look. The horse is still moving."

sin(x): "Yet now we know NI isn't below sniping content it deems "too old"."

TomislaveEP: "Personally, I don't have anything on this list, but I completely understand the disappointment and even anger of those who do. Especially if this move from NI means that they can't use these products anymore, which could be a real issue in regards to backward compatibility."

Thundercat: "If someone disables a product you use remotely, that you have bought and use, and that you then have to replace paying hundreds of dollars for, what word other than theft do you think fits?"

SupremeFist said: "In this case it's more like you have a working Wii and games but Nintendo has remotely flipped a switch that literally prevents you inserting the cartridge into the console and playing it."






RonOrchComp said:


> There needs to be a distinction tho, I believe, between support and license activation. They are not one and the same.
> 
> Refusing to support a product is one thing; refusing to allow end users the ability to activate is something else. Especially when the EULA specifically states that there is no time restriction.



Probably, but the fact that these are ONLY discontinued libraries is an important distinction too.


Also, can anyone confirm if that clause in the EULA regarding guaranteed access keys is in any of the recent versions of the NI EULA? I don't believe I see that in the most recent EULA from last October. I only see it referenced in a EULA from 2014.


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## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Also, can anyone confirm if that clause in the EULA regarding guaranteed access keys is in any of the recent versions of the NI EULA? I don't believe I see that in the most recent EULA from last October. I only see it referenced in a EULA from 2014.


I assume the libraries are older than 2014. Does it have a clause that allows them to change the terms after the sale?


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I assume the libraries are older than 2014. Does it have a clause that allows them to change the terms after the sale?



I'll search it out, but I believe they always have the right to update the EULA.


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## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I'll search it out, but I believe they always have the right to update the EULA.


Then it isn't worth the pixels it's written with.


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## sin(x) (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I'll search it out, but I believe they always have the right to update the EULA.



I think you're imbuing EULAs with a few too many magical abilities.


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## MartinH. (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I'll search it out, but I believe they always have the right to update the EULA.



That's usually in _every _EULA. It's also not that unusual for EULAs to have clauses that wouldn't hold up if tested in court. Because of that they all have that salvatorian clause:








Salvatorian Clause Sample Clauses | Law Insider


Sample Contracts and Business Agreements




www.lawinsider.com





I'm not going to try splitting hairs on EULA wording, because unless someone is willing to go to court over the wording, what does it matter? If a product isn't sold as subscription, it's at the very least heavily implied that it is a non-time-limited license to use the product. If the fineprint says something different, you'd have to test in court if it violates some consumer protection laws. Those laws are in place to not give companies a free ticket to get away with everything, just through clever EULA wording, or else the big ones would try to.


----------



## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> I think you're imbuing EULAs with a few too many magical abilities.


Unfortunately he isn't. Companies often put a clause in that forces you to agree to any new terms or amendments they come up with in the future. It doesn't stand up in court though.


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

sin(x) said:


> I think you're imbuing EULAs with a few too many magical abilities.



Its not a contract, but rather just the hurdle you'll have to deal with if you really wanted to take this to court.

The obvious general part states that if you're still using the library, you agree to the conditions. 

there is a part that might be the grey area that benefits people who disagree with NI's actions:

1. If any stipulation of this EULA should be or become invalid, either completely or in part, this shall not affect the validity of the remaining stipulations. The parties undertake instead to replace the invalid stipulation with a valid regulation which comes as close as possible to the purpose originally intended.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I replied to the statements below that imply that NI is bricking libraries for no reason. People can still use their libraries on their current authorized machines, but they cannot authorize on new machines. They are not just automatically bricking your installed library. that is a valid distinction to make.



Ok, so your argument claiming you were in fact responding to a point I made is about some other claims that I didn't raise. Got it. Glad we got that sorted out.



> Also, can anyone confirm if that clause in the EULA regarding guaranteed access keys is in any of the recent versions of the NI EULA? I don't believe I see that in the most recent EULA from last October. I only see it referenced in a EULA from 2014.
> 
> ...
> I'll search it out, but I believe they always have the right to update the EULA.



You can't retrospectively update a EULA for an existing product and expect it to stick. You can make a condition of using an update signing up to that newer EULA. For versions before that change, the earlier language holds. But your argument that NI might have rescinded rights only holds also if they explicitly cancel an existing part of the agreement, ie "we'll deliver a permanent activation key" to "we make no guarantee to deliver a permanent activation key" or words to that effect. Feel free to pile through a series of them. 

But I can save you some time, the most recent updates for Vokator and Spektral Delay (tools for which there is no direct replacement from NI) contains that promise of a permanent activation key in the event of the C/R crapping out. 

eg Vokator 1.2.0: "Should Native Instruments for whatever reasons no longer be able to fulfil its obligations to deliver the activation key, it will provide the Licensee with a key which ensures the continued use of the software independent of changes of the computer."

I can't speak for everyone with a copy of Vokator etc but that's all that I'd like to see from NI. I don't think it's unreasonable, especially given that it was part of an agreement.


----------



## sin(x) (Mar 14, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Unfortunately he isn't. Companies often put a clause in that forces you to agree to any new terms or amendments they come up with in the future. It doesn't stand up in court though.



But that's what I'm talking about. They're essentially "here's how we wish things were, please don't test us on it" documents. If you knew that a) essentially nobody's reading your contract and b) the worst thing that can happen when a clause is deemed invalid by a court is that that clause becomes ineffective, wouldn't you make that contract a list of your wildest dreams? I would.


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## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Its not a contract


Actually, it is.









EU highest court says software licence terms can be ignored


In 2012 the European Union's highest court, The Court of Justice for the European Union (CJEU) in the case UsedSoft v Oracle made the following…




www.lexology.com









What is EULA? | Webopedia


EULA is a legal contract between a manufacturer and end user of an application. Learn more about EULAs here.




www.webopedia.com









End-user license agreement - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## robgb (Mar 14, 2020)

d.healey said:


> About to be made a requirement in the EU - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49884827


Nice to see. There are states in the U.S. attempting to pass right to repair legislation, but they're being scared off by lobbyists claiming that repair is "too dangerous" for the average consumer, completely ignoring that independent repair shops could go out of business if the laws aren't passed.


----------



## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Actually, it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well at least the EU legal system is on your side.


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## robgb (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I'll search it out, but I believe they always have the right to update the EULA.


I suspect this would only be legal if the user agrees to the actual updated EULA. Trying to future proof a EULA is pretty pointless from a legal standpoint, I believe. I could be wrong.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

robgb said:


> I suspect this would only be legal if the user agrees to the actual updated EULA. Trying to future proof a EULA is pretty pointless from a legal standpoint, I believe. I could be wrong.



So if the Native Access user agreement was, for example, created to supersede the service center agreements, I wonder where that leaves us.


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## MartinH. (Mar 14, 2020)

robgb said:


> Nice to see. There are states in the U.S. attempting to pass right to repair legislation, but they're being scared off by lobbyists claiming that repair is "too dangerous" for the average consumer, completely ignoring that independent repair shops could go out of business if the laws aren't passed.



I saw that propaganda video against repair, it was total BS. 

Didn't Hawaii pass the bill?


----------



## Quasar (Mar 14, 2020)

robgb said:


> Nice to see. There are states in the U.S. attempting to pass right to repair legislation, but they're being scared off by lobbyists claiming that repair is "*too dangerous*" for the average consumer, completely ignoring that independent repair shops could go out of business if the laws aren't passed.


Yeah, swapping a hard drive or upgrading a memory stick is a truly terrifying experience. You're really living on the edge if you're crazy enough to try something like that...


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## d.healey (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> So if the Native Access user agreement was, for example, created to supersede the service center agreements, I wonder where that leaves us.


When you install the newer software you'll see a new agreement, so you might be right that if you upgrade you are bound to the new terms even for older products.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

d.healey said:


> When you install the newer software you'll see a new agreement, so you might be right that if you upgrade you are bound to the new terms even for older products.



it seems that the catch is native access. It throws it into the login, stating that if you login to native access you are agreeing to the most recent EULA (linked on the login page).


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## Mike Greene (Mar 14, 2020)

I wonder if NI could keep Service Center, although without updates. That way, people could still authorize these older products, albeit on operating systems old enough to run Service Center. (And, of course, an OS old enough to run whatever plug-in is being authorized.) They could even restrict it so it only authorizes these discontinued products, so there would be no overlap between Service Center and Native Access.

That would solve any legal issues, plus I assume it would cost almost nothing.


----------



## Quasar (Mar 14, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I wonder if NI could keep Service Center, although without updates. That way, people could still authorize these older products, albeit on operating systems old enough to run Service Center. (And, of course, an OS old enough to run whatever plug-in is being authorized.) They could even restrict it so it only authorizes these discontinued products, so there would be no overlap between Service Center and Native Access.
> 
> That would solve any legal issues, plus I assume it would cost almost nothing.


This scenario still sets up the inevitable situation down the road in which a library that would otherwise work is unable to be used solely because it cannot be activated due to the DRM. This is the ONLY salient issue.


----------



## gamma-ut (Mar 14, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I wonder if NI could keep Service Center, although without updates. That way, people could still authorize these older products, albeit on operating systems old enough to run Service Center. (And, of course, an OS old enough to run whatever plug-in is being authorized.) They could even restrict it so it only authorizes these discontinued products, so there would be no overlap between Service Center and Native Access.
> 
> That would solve any legal issues, plus I assume it would cost almost nothing.



The problem according to NI from what I can gather is that the communication between local Service Center and the remote server is the issue, along the lines of "it doesn't conform to new security standards". My guess is that, having been designed way back when, it's either sending personal information in plaintext form or it's very prone to hacking attacks (things like buffer overflows) or both. So, they're very keen to turn that off.

I and others elsewhere have suggested they restart the offline activation option because that would allow the necessary data to be sent using TLS encryption from a webform, and get an activation file back. Most of the infrastructure is still there, so it's at least feasible though probably not what management at NI wanted to deal with, which is why the situation is where it is.

It's not the option promised in those old EULAs but it's better than a kick in the head.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Mar 14, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Over the full version of Kontakt, perhaps not, but we are talking about the free player versions of Kontakt that these libraries run in, and IMHO, Play is significantly better.A simple screenshot of their mixers, ease of output assignment, and moving the libraries to another drive are among my reasons.


True, I was referring to the full version of Kontakt. 

Best,

Geoff


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## chillbot (Mar 14, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I wonder if NI could keep Service Center, although without updates. That way, people could still authorize these older products, albeit on operating systems old enough to run Service Center. (And, of course, an OS old enough to run whatever plug-in is being authorized.) They could even restrict it so it only authorizes these discontinued products, so there would be no overlap between Service Center and Native Access.


Though I would love to be able to continue to run it on the latest OS.

Another option, write it in to the next Kontakt update: if any of these libraries from this list get added to Kontakt, bypass authorization entirely. Yes that's right, make them all essentially free libraries to anyone that has them. Ok that sounds like anarchy but if they are just tossing the lot of em in the bin anyway...


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 14, 2020)

chillbot said:


> Though I would love to be able to continue to run it on the latest OS.
> 
> Another option, write it in to the next Kontakt update: if any of these libraries from this list get added to Kontakt, bypass authorization entirely. Yes that's right, make them all essentially free libraries to anyone that has them. Ok that sounds like anarchy but if they are just tossing the lot of em in the bin anyway...



I think the main issue with that is third party - I'd have thought it would break a contract with them to just abandon the copy protection the devs originally paid for and just effectively give it away as a free for all.

But I agree I don't see much value in the Service Center option when it can't handle new OSes.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 14, 2020)

Yeah that sort of action would have to be vetted by all involved 3rd parties. You can bet that EW would want to hear none of that.


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## robgb (Mar 14, 2020)

Geoff Grace said:


> It should be noted that while you can't install Atmosphere on a new Mac, you can access its sounds by installing Omnisphere.


I was mightily annoyed by this. Atmosphere became useless to me and I didn't really want to shell out the money to buy Omnisphere. This happened awhile ago, but it still burns.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 14, 2020)

I might have missed it in the hailstorm of marketing emails over the last 15 years, but did / does EW offer any sort of cross grade discount for those who purchased their Kontakt libraries like EWQLSO or StormDrum and want to purchase the Play version?

When I look on their website I only see upgrade options from EWQLSO Gold Play to Platinum Play for instance.

They're not horrendously expensive even to buy from scratch, but it would be nice if there was an accommodation price for making the switch, especially since we are now effectively surrendering our Kontakt licenses.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> I might have missed it in the hailstorm of marketing emails over the last 15 years, but did / does EW offer any sort of cross grade discount for those who purchased their Kontakt libraries like EWQLSO or StormDrum and want to purchase the Play version?
> 
> When I look on their website I only see upgrade options from EWQLSO Gold Play to Platinum Play for instance.
> 
> They're not horrendously expensive even to buy from scratch, but it would be nice if there was an accommodation price for making the switch, especially since we are now effectively surrendering our Kontakt licenses.


 from the soundsonline forum
------------------------------------

Thanks, Peter.






Allow me to add on to that: You can purchase an upgrade to said Play engine version or a new version on our site. To upgrade, please go to the corresponding library webpage and click on the red "Buy Now" button. From the first (or sometimes second) drop-down menu, select "Upgrade" and then your NI / Kompakt version (sometimes also named "XP").

- Colossus -> Goliath: http://www.soundsonline.com/goliath
- RA: http://soundsonline.com/RA
- Stormdrum 1 -> Best of Included in Stormdrum 2 Pro http://soundsonline.com/SD2, or purchasable here: http://www.soundsonline.com/25th-Anniversary-Collection
- Symphonic Choirs: http://www.soundsonline.com/symphonic-choirs
-Symphonic Orchestra: http://www.soundsonline.com/symphonic-orchestra
- The oldest libraries: http://www.soundsonline.com/25th-Anniversary-Collection

Our Go Green sale has discounts up to 50% on upgrades and licenses on most libraries. 
Please see here for more info: http://www.soundsonline.com/go-green
*Ends on the 20th of March, 2020.*


----------



## Andrew Aversa (Mar 14, 2020)

I own Ra, Stormdrum, QLSO Gold, Colossus, and Symphonic Choirs. I'd have to pay something like $350 to "upgrade" all my stuff and make it usable indefinitely. No new samples. What a terrible deal for loyal customers. This is 15 year old content!


----------



## dzilizzi (Mar 14, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Yeah, swapping a hard drive or upgrading a memory stick is a truly terrifying experience. You're really living on the edge if you're crazy enough to try something like that...


I bought 2 new laptops recently. Changed the m.2 drive and RAM on one and added a second drive to both. I knew Lenovo doesn't void the warranty if you do this. They show how to add the second drive online. The MSI computer says it is upgradeable to 64 gb RAM but doesn't say if changing it voids the warranty. Though you do have to remove a sticker. But that could happen by accident, right ?


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 14, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> my interpretation of the "expiration date" is up until the point when the product is officially discontinued/abandoned.
> 
> 
> sorry for the caps but this is the common warranty I am finding from various developers: this is spitfire (
> ...


Sorry I think this is stretching the limit of credibility. If a service is interrupted, the implication is it will be restarted. It does not say "permanently interrupted," which would in fact be stated "ceased to continue" or "terminated."

I totally respect you - you put forth very calm and cogent responses to a lot of emotional posts such as mine, which is cool. however I think you're on the wrong side of logic here.

To buy a product means you have access to it permanently. In perpetuity. Aeternally. Yeah, forever is ridiculous but that is what it means to people.

Again, the analogy of the car...the manufacturer cannot simply disable your key remotely due to technical reasons. There's the car, you need it, you bought it, but you can't drive it now because as you would state, it's reached it's "natural expiration date."

You would be a good lawyer (are you?), but in this case, there's a reason this thread has bloated to 27+ pages thus far.

I am 1000% on the side of the devs to protect their investments, and as some have pointed out, it's good for us too, because then they can afford to stay in business. This is NOT ABOUT CP in and of itself.

This is about bad CP. CP that was doing it's job, and then became the Terminator. CP was not designed to terminate people's rights to use their software.

Sigh. It seems so incredibly clear to me, and so obvious, that this shouldn't even be an argument.

With respect, I am not going to try to convince you any further. I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this one.

But I still challenge NI to come up with a fair way forward that honors people who have paid for their products. I expect they should provide actual money back - yes after all these years - or an equivalent or better product that has access to the same sounds - or a way to continue to activate these products in the event they go under.

And this applies to ALL of their products.


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 14, 2020)

Just to play a game here, suppose I bought one of those libraries new 10+ years ago and never installed it.

Then suppose I tried to install it on June 1st, 2020.

Would not NI have completely impeded my ability to use the product? Was there a clause that stated in the EULA or ANYWHERE that after a certain date I could not install the product?

This is so freaking obvious. No. Words.


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## Thundercat (Mar 14, 2020)

I think it's time to stop focussing on one member's insistence that NI is totally cool and within their rights here, with out naming names.

Do we have any other ideas to share collectively that would benefit our discussion? Bashing one member becomes really torrid and derailing to this discussion.


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## benatural (Mar 14, 2020)

Just dropping in to say that I also still use East West's Orchestra, Choir, Storm Drum, and RA with Kontakt because these versions are more lightweight than using PLAY. 

So yeah, not a fan of this move by NI.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 14, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Just to play a game here, suppose I bought one of those libraries new 10+ years ago and never installed it.
> 
> Then suppose I tried to install it on June 1st, 2020.
> 
> ...



Since you asked,
in all seriousness you’d probably be eligible for a refund in that case.

“1.2 By installing and by registering the software on your computer, you declare yourself in agreement with these conditions. If you do not agree with these conditions, you must not install the software. In this case, and provided you purchased a boxed product, you have the opportunity to return the complete Product (including all written matter, packaging and similar material) to the dealer from whom it was originally bought within 14 (fourteen) days after the day of purchase. For respective purchases from the Native Instruments Online Shop, please contact our customer support (easy to use forms can be found on our website) for returning the complete Product (including all written matter, packaging and similar material). The price you paid will be refunded in full.”

probably would just take some poking at customer service.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Mar 15, 2020)

FWIW - no crossgrade from Kontakt versions of Stormdrum 1 are available as per the instructions above. Didn't check the other products.

But once again, the far better solution is to give NI time to sort out the issues at their end.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> I own Ra, Stormdrum, QLSO Gold, Colossus, and Symphonic Choirs. I'd have to pay something like $350 to "upgrade" all my stuff and make it usable indefinitely. No new samples. What a terrible deal for loyal customers. This is 15 year old content!


Oh yeah, forgot about Colossus. That’s a “me too” moment. I have Choirs, QLSO Platinum and Ra in Play.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2020)

robgb said:


> I was mightily annoyed by this. Atmosphere became useless to me and I didn't really want to shell out the money to buy Omnisphere. This happened awhile ago, but it still burns.


I remember the exact opposite. I owned Atmosphere, Trilogy and Stylus, and the upgrade price for Omnisphere was ridiculously reasonable as a result.


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 15, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> I remember the exact opposite. I owned Atmosphere, Trilogy and Stylus, and the upgrade price for Omnisphere was ridiculously reasonable as a result.


Another "me too." That's my recollection as well, and I owned all three products.

(Oh, and I also have EWQLSC, EWQLSO Platinum and Ra in Play, although I bought EWQLSC and EWQLSO before Play, when they first came out.)

Best,

Geoff


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## robgb (Mar 15, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> I remember the exact opposite. I owned Atmosphere, Trilogy and Stylus, and the upgrade price for Omnisphere was ridiculously reasonable as a result.


That may be true, but the fact that I was forced to upgrade at all was annoying. I was perfectly happy with Atmosphere.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2020)

robgb said:


> That may be true, but the fact that I was forced to upgrade at all was annoying. I was perfectly happy with Atmosphere.


Atmosphere was awesome.

So did you never upgrade to Omnisphere then?


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## rrichard63 (Mar 15, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> I expect they should provide ... an equivalent or better product that has access to the same sounds ...


With respect to a few of these products, there's some irony here. If NI were to rerelease the sounds in Pro-53 and B4 II with a modern interface, they might sell very well. These instruments certainly have their fans, and I suspect that's not just nostalgia.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 15, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> I might have missed it in the hailstorm of marketing emails over the last 15 years, but did / does EW offer any sort of cross grade discount for those who purchased their Kontakt libraries like EWQLSO or StormDrum and want to purchase the Play version?
> 
> When I look on their website I only see upgrade options from EWQLSO Gold Play to Platinum Play for instance.
> 
> They're not horrendously expensive even to buy from scratch, but it would be nice if there was an accommodation price for making the switch, especially since we are now effectively surrendering our Kontakt licenses.



My memory of it is that at the time, they did for a while.


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## robgb (Mar 15, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Atmosphere was awesome.
> 
> So did you never upgrade to Omnisphere then?


Nope.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 15, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> I remember the exact opposite. I owned Atmosphere, Trilogy and Stylus, and the upgrade price for Omnisphere was ridiculously reasonable as a result.


Add me to the me-toos. I thought the upgrade was $99, but I checked and it was $149. Still a total no-brainer, though.

If memory serves, Spectrasonics couldn't continue Atmosphere because it was running in a third party UVI engine (same one as Plugsound Pro used) that would not work on the new Intel Macs. They chose that time to create their own STEAM engine. Those were messy times for us Mac people, because there were tons of other plugs that could no longer be read in Intel Mac sessions, either. I have a couple G5's sitting on a shelf, just in case I ever need to access some of those old projects. Interestingly, I needed those old projects a lot less frequectly than I would have thought.

Now that I'm already strolling down memory lane, I think that when EW went to PLAY, the crossgrade (I won't use the word "upgrade" ) price for each of their libraries was something like 50 bucks, but you also had an option, for an additional 50 bucks, to keep your Kontakt license. (Otherwise they were supposedly deleted.) I imagine most of us did both, if for no other reason than having extra installs available.


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## Monkey Man (Mar 15, 2020)

Time for an update from Matt on how the meetings have progressed, methinks...


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## Andrew Aversa (Mar 15, 2020)

They are offering upgrades starting at $50 now, but that's a pretty awful deal considering there is *no* new content and PLAY is arguably worse than Kontakt (it certainly is for me.) I'm not paying $350 to keep using software I paid over $1500 for, with no new features or content, on a worse engine.


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## AlexRuger (Mar 15, 2020)

A few things come to mind:

1) I see people talking about converting libraries to EXS. I think it's a good idea, but definitely flawed -- not everyone uses Logic or Mainstage, and who the hell knows how long Apple will keep it around. I wouldn't be surprised if one day they pulled a similar move and axed it.

2) Any converted libraries should be shared communally.

3) Has anyone tried creating a virtual machine and running, say, VEPro in it? I really hate the idea of cracking software, but it might be a good idea to create a "time capsule" of the latest, say, Windows 7 with the latest Kontakt 5 crack installed, and a repository of these libraries. That way, they can always be used and activation won't be a part of the equation (though, I'm sure performance inside of a virtual machine will be not great).

4) I've thought for YEARS that sample libraries and samplers _must _have an open source alternative. I would love love love to see a Linux distro designed specifically for running sample hosts -- an open source VEP-type thing, an open source sampler that can open Giga and ideally other formats, etc. As everyone has pointed out, samples don't age and don't rot -- this isn't absurdly complex software we're talking about here, all things considered. A sampler is just a thing that takes in MIDI input, relays those instructions to play back the necessary files in the necessary ways, and outputs audio. There is absolutely zero reason for sampled instruments to be discarded with time, and activation is probably the worst reason of all. If you're not going to care about activating them, just let them be free and be done with it. You don't go around smashing Stradivari or DX7's just because they're old, and as far as I know, wav files aren't exposed to the weather.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 15, 2020)

AlexRuger said:


> A few things come to mind:
> 
> 1) I see people talking about converting libraries to EXS. I think it's a good idea, but definitely flawed -- not everyone uses Logic or Mainstage, and who the hell knows how long Apple will keep it around. I wouldn't be surprised if one day they pulled a similar move and axed it.
> 
> ...



exs24 is not the ideal, but it is a light weight alternative that is actually supported across various players. I actually just got done converting a bunch of old poorly programmed Kontakt libraries to exs24 then imported them into studio one’s presence player. UVI falcon has basic exs24 support as well. I can even use them on iOS. I’m sure there are many more players out there. For a basic first step it’s not too bad.

I agree that simply losing the libraries is a waste and the community should step up to save them. If the developers can do anything to leave an open source option for the community to maintain after discontinuation, that’s a win for everyone.

I mean, really there’s no satisfactory alternative. Any player or format will eventually meet it’s end, but if the samples are around and there are people willing to take time to help maintain them, we could create a great new option for graveyard libraries to live again.


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## AlexRuger (Mar 15, 2020)

Is there such a thing as a sample library...library? Like a Pokédex but for sample libraries. A wiki where you can download stuff.

"Such and such library was made by [company] in [year] for [sampler]. Its support ended in [year] due to [reason]." And then a link to download it.

The idea of crowdsourcing an effort towards maintenance and curation of old libraries, plus building open source tools to replace commercial options, isn't such a bad idea.

I'm not calling _vive la revolution _or anything like that, but it's clear to me that if _an inability to continue the support protocol _for a library is a reason to kill it -- nothing technical in terms of use -- then perhaps samplers being commercial products maybe isn't the best idea. After all, they're a _platform, _not a product, and as we all know, commercial platforms of any sort tend to cause problems by concentrating power and creating de facto gatekeepers.

Food for thought.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 16, 2020)

AlexRuger said:


> Is there such a thing as a sample library...library? Like a Pokédex but for sample libraries. A wiki where you can download stuff.



Warez torrent trackers.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 16, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I agree that simply losing the libraries is a waste and the community should step up to save them. If the developers can do anything to leave an open source option for the community to maintain after discontinuation, that’s a win for everyone.
> 
> I mean, really there’s no satisfactory alternative. Any player or format will eventually meet it’s end, but if the samples are around and there are people willing to take time to help maintain them, we could create a great new option for graveyard libraries to live again.



I'm impressed by the way you can suddenly switch from "NI owes you nothing" to "they should provide community libraries", especially when NI does not own the rights to the samples in most of those libraries: the third-party vendors who made them do. I find it implausible that East West is going to say "yeah, go ahead, open up those samples" to anyone. And copyright legislation means without that permission, any derivative work is off limits, legally. I know how you like things to be legal.

As mentioned numerous times in this thread, the answer is for NI to continue to allow authorisation whether it means maintaining the existing approach or providing permanent, non-machine-locked, keys. But you don't like that solution. So, hey ho.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 16, 2020)

Monkey Man said:


> Time for an update from Matt on how the meetings have progressed, methinks...



I did offer an update on Friday evening. There is no meetings on weekends obviously and I would imagine that I get little update in the next couple of days since we are all organising ourselves to work remotely. We will have more to share this week though. I'm finishing a few things on my end now and will be able to join this conversation more actively today.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 16, 2020)

chillbot said:


> Though I would love to be able to continue to run it on the latest OS.
> 
> Another option, write it in to the next Kontakt update: if any of these libraries from this list get added to Kontakt, bypass authorization entirely. Yes that's right, make them all essentially free libraries to anyone that has them. Ok that sounds like anarchy but if they are just tossing the lot of em in the bin anyway...



Here, you are essentially making all these libraries available for free to anyone which might not be to the taste of the manufacturers. We are trying to see what could be possible here in any case.


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## Technostica (Mar 16, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Here, you are essentially making all these libraries available for free to anyone which might not be to the taste of the manufacturers. We are trying to see what could be possible here in any case.


Only for people that have already downloaded them or still have access to a download because they have paid.
People who want to pirate would likely already be doing so and torrenting newer stuff I imagine.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 16, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> we are all organising ourselves to work remotely.



Really pleased to read that - all the best to everyone at NI, Matt.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 16, 2020)

Technostica said:


> Only for people that have already downloaded them or still have access to a download because they have paid.
> People who want to pirate would likely already be doing so and torrenting newer stuff I imagine.



You can't really control what happens and while this could be a valid course to follow, we are mostly not talking about our own products.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 16, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> exs24 is not the ideal, but it is a light weight alternative that is actually supported across various players. I actually just got done converting a bunch of old poorly programmed Kontakt libraries to exs24 then imported them into studio one’s presence player. UVI falcon has basic exs24 support as well. I can even use them on iOS. I’m sure there are many more players out there. For a basic first step it’s not too bad.


I agree. If you're a Logic user I think ESX24 the safest place for your libraries to exist. Despite the GUI looking like a 1995 superstar, the sampler still underpins the new instruments in Logic. You can buy an auto sampler for it, Alchemy reads ESX24 files etc etc.

I think the version that we currently have access to isn't the latest version either - some of the newer Logic instruments feature things like Legato (faked or otherwise) that we can't use in our own EXS patches yet. There might be more goodness incoming. In fact, I believe the only way ESX24 dies is if Logic gets discontinued, which would be a much bigger problem.

Obviously this isn't a solution for replacing the EW orchestra, but for a few treasured sounds that you don't want to say goodbye to, it's a great and safe option, IMO.


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## Technostica (Mar 16, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> You can't really control what happens and while this could be a valid course to follow, we are mostly not talking about our own products.


I wasn't suggesting that you do anything without having full permission and I think most here would concur.
Two blunders is worse than one.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 16, 2020)

Technostica said:


> I wasn't suggesting that you do anything without having full permission and I think most here would concur.
> Two blunders is worse than one.



Gotcha - just wanted to point it out again


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 16, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> I'm impressed by the way you can suddenly switch from "NI owes you nothing" to "they should provide community libraries", especially when NI does not own the rights to the samples in most of those libraries: the third-party vendors who made them do. I find it implausible that East West is going to say "yeah, go ahead, open up those samples" to anyone. And copyright legislation means without that permission, any derivative work is off limits, legally. I know how you like things to be legal.
> 
> As mentioned numerous times in this thread, the answer is for NI to continue to allow authorisation whether it means maintaining the existing approach or providing permanent, non-machine-locked, keys. But you don't like that solution. So, hey ho.




haha calm down. you just won't let it go. 

I didn't say that NI should provide community libraries. I don't know how to spell it out in a way that you'll comprehend, but I suppose I can try. 

Since the problem is that any player or service can at some point stop working, what I am saying is, when a developer (NI for their own products, or the 3rd party developers for theirs) decides to discontinue a sample library, it'd be nice if they gave access to the samples for other people in the community to try and maintain on their own. Of course, where it is legally ok to do so. 

I'm trying to recall which developer's EULAs kind of allow this, but it'd just be saying that any officially decommissioned (no longer on sale) library's samples are open for people to use to recreate the library for non-commercial purposes. Not that you cant use the samples for your commercial projects, but rather no one can take those samples and then try and re-sell them as a modified version of the library. 

Your solution is short-sighted because THIS time the problem is NI's Authorization. The ultimate point I've been trying to make is, any and every library you have has points of potential failure, whether its lack of support from the developer, or lack of support for authorization, corrupted samples that cant be downloaded again, or decommissioned sample engines, no matter what platform, you risk losing full use of your libraries. There is no law that will require any entity to support a product eternally, especially since you can't guarantee developers will be operational forever. As I pointed out before most EULAs try to establish clearly the agreement between user and developer that they will not guarantee perpetual service or warranty. If that's the case all of your libraries have a ticking clock until they just cannot be run for whatever reason. 

So IF it was possible for some developers to open up their discontinued libraries to the public to maintain, it would serve you better for your goal of being able to always use your favorite libraries. The gaming community does stuff like this, and if this industry could do the same, we'd all be better off for it.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 16, 2020)

To borrow a phrase:



chocobitz825 said:


> I don't know how to spell it out in a way that you'll comprehend, but I suppose I can try.



In answer to:



> Your solution is short-sighted because THIS time the problem is NI's Authorization.



I don't think it was unclear that I meant NI in this case given the various constraints that have been set out time and again in this thread.

But please keep feeling put upon everytime someone disagrees.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 16, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> To borrow a phrase:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You and I are clearly done here. Best of luck.


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## SupremeFist (Mar 16, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Since the problem is that any player or service can at some point stop working, what I am saying is, when a developer (NI for their own products, or the 3rd party developers for theirs) decides to discontinue a sample library, it'd be nice if they gave access to the samples for other people in the community to try and maintain on their own. Of course, where it is legally ok to do so.
> …
> 
> So IF it was possible for some developers to open up their discontinued libraries to the public to maintain, it would serve you better for your goal of being able to always use your favorite libraries. The gaming community does stuff like this, and if this industry could do the same, we'd all be better off for it.



Yes! The problem here is that EastWest is still selling the Play edition of EWQLSO, which uses exactly the same samples as the Kontakt version, so I could understand why they wouldn't want those going free. In my case I just want to be able to reinstall it when I am forced to by hardware failure/upgrade etc.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 16, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> which uses exactly the same samples as the Kontakt version



Actually IIRC the samples were remastered for PLAY engine.


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## d.healey (Mar 16, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Yes! The problem here is that EastWest is still selling the Play edition of EWQLSO, which uses exactly the same samples as the Kontakt version, so I could understand why they wouldn't want those going free.


You've been able to download all of the old EW Kontakt libraries illegally for years. So they won't be losing anything by removing the DRM for existing customers.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 16, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I agree. If you're a Logic user I think ESX24 the safest place for your libraries to exist. Despite the GUI looking like a 1995 superstar, the sampler still underpins the new instruments in Logic. You can buy an auto sampler for it, Alchemy reads ESX24 files etc etc.
> 
> I think the version that we currently have access to isn't the latest version either - some of the newer Logic instruments feature things like Legato (faked or otherwise) that we can't use in our own EXS patches yet. There might be more goodness incoming. In fact, I believe the only way ESX24 dies is if Logic gets discontinued, which would be a much bigger problem.
> 
> Obviously this isn't a solution for replacing the EW orchestra, but for a few treasured sounds that you don't want to say goodbye to, it's a great and safe option, IMO.




Certainly, because the EXS24 lacks scripting and true legato capabilities,,converting whole libraries and expecting them to be the same is not realistic. Years ago Peter Schwartz gave me an EXS23 Leagto-izer script that works pretty well though, so a guy who understands Logic's scripts well like Dewdman can probably do something similar.


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## chocobitz825 (Mar 16, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Certainly, because the EXS24 lacks scripting and true legato capabilities,,converting whole libraries and expecting them to be the same is not realistic. Years ago Peter Schwartz gave me an EXS23 Leagto-izer script that works pretty well though, so a guy who understands Logic's scripts well like Dewdman can probably do something similar.



it is definitely not a substitute for any of the libraries we're working with now. It's fairly sufficient for decade old libraries. I imagine if the community took up the task, using library translators, various options could be created to match the library's needs. 

Has anyone tried chicken systems's Translator 7 Pro?


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## Monkey Man (Mar 17, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> I did offer an update on Friday evening. There is no meetings on weekends obviously and I would imagine that I get little update in the next couple of days since we are all organising ourselves to work remotely. We will have more to share this week though. I'm finishing a few things on my end now and will be able to join this conversation more actively today.


Thank you, Matt! ❤


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## gamma-ut (Mar 17, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> it is definitely not a substitute for any of the libraries we're working with now. It's fairly sufficient for decade old libraries. I imagine if the community took up the task, using library translators, various options could be created to match the library's needs.
> 
> Has anyone tried chicken systems's Translator 7 Pro?



Translator will do a conversion and extract the samples as long as they aren't encrypted. If they are encrypted, no dice. Garth, not unreasonably, won't touch those and has said so many times.

But the issue even with samples the with a community library is that even when the samples are not protected in a way that will stop Translator, many such as the ones in EWQLSO are supplied as Kontakt monoliths. If you convert to anything else, including Kontakt NKIs that reference WAV files, there isn't a legally viable community option because to make them work you would need to distribute the WAVs – basically a cracked version – _unless_ everyone has access to something like Translator that can extract the samples. There is arguably some value in creating a community SFZ portfolio with corrected mapping (as translation is not an exact science) but that's as far as it can go.

Similarly, with resampling, which is the only option for an encrypted library, there is no community option that is not in effect piracy. Then there is no SFZ+bring-your-own-samples option because everyone's resampling will be different.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 17, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> it is definitely not a substitute for any of the libraries we're working with now. It's fairly sufficient for decade old libraries. I imagine if the community took up the task, using library translators, various options could be created to match the library's needs.
> 
> Has anyone tried chicken systems's Translator 7 Pro?




I have. It works well with some, not so well with others. It won't work with protected libraries.


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## homie (Mar 18, 2020)

I wanted to add something.

I assume we agree that this is absolutely not just about NI and their 3rd party devs alone.

In a way i'm glad it happend so we can see and discuss what the future brings with all this c/r or dongle protected VI's and plugins by vendors using c/r and dongles. NI's competition has been mostly silent in here, which is understandable, but they are onboard with this issue whether they want it or not.


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## Stringtree (Mar 18, 2020)

Heee... I could do this for some time. I'm proud that I buy software. These are activated, but for how long I don't know. The B4 sounds as hot as it did back then, even after I got my Nord.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 18, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> Heee... I could do this for some time. I'm proud that I buy software. These are activated, but for how long I don't know. The B4 sounds as hot as it did back then, even after I got my Nord.



Symphonic Orchestra should still be ok, it’s Gold XP that will be a problem (the old Symphonic Orchestra).


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## Matt_NI (Mar 20, 2020)

Hey Everyone, 

Just a quick update on this.

I have received a note about the progress and it looks like we are now focusing on a new offline activation tool which would allow our support to activate all the products listed. I don't have a full overview on how this would work yet but it looks very promising. I'm hoping to have something official about this in our announcement article next week.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 20, 2020)

Awesome. Thanks Matt.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 20, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> a new offline activation tool which would allow our support to activate all the products listed.


I hope this does indeed turn out to be feasible. Thanks, Matt.


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## Quasar (Mar 20, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> Just a quick update on this.
> 
> I have received a note about the progress and it looks like we are now focusing on a new offline activation tool which would allow our support to activate all the products listed. I don't have a full overview on how this would work yet but it looks very promising. I'm hoping to have something official about this in our announcement article next week.


Any chance that this would become global? That NI would restore an offline activation option the way it used to before the Native Access era?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 20, 2020)

Unlikely, but it is likely that it would work for all legacy products that SC supported, at least.

Remember, the point of this tool is to move the oldest RAS methods (0, 1, 1.5) out of Native Access so that NA itself can move forward as a codebase. If a product is RAS2 or RAS3, it won't be handled by this new offline auth tool. Also, deducing from Matt wrote, this is not going to be a tool for end users, but for support. So you would send in an activation request and you'd get your wanted products activated within 24h or so.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 20, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> [T]he point of this tool is to move the oldest RAS methods (0, 1, 1.5) out of Native Access so that NA itself can move forward as a codebase.


This is the clearest statement of the problem that I've seen so far. Thanks.


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## RonOrchComp (Mar 20, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Also, deducing from Matt wrote, this is not going to be a tool for end users, but for support. So you would send in an activation request and you'd get your wanted products activated within 24h or so.



That I can live with. Thanks for passing along good info!


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## Monkey Man (Mar 21, 2020)

Bravo Matt; thank you to you and the team, mate. ❤


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## Thundercat (Mar 21, 2020)

It's amazing when a company steps up and listens to its users when there's a problem. No one and no company is perfect, but I think NI deserves a shit ton of credit and appreciation for their response to our outcry.

Thanks Matt et al!! You guys are doing wonderfully for us!!

Mike


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## Monkey Man (Mar 22, 2020)

Totally, Mike.

Thank you again, Matt and NI!


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## Virtual Virgin (Mar 22, 2020)

Does anyone know if "Virtual Drumline 2" also applies to version 2.5.5?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 22, 2020)

Yes, quite likely, since it's still an update of base version 2.0.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 25, 2020)

Thanks for the kind comments everyone. I'm also personally glad we were able to find a solution for this and restore some good faith. 
The team will do the best they can to have this tool ready before end of May. We are trying to assess the effort and we will have an official update as soon as we can commit to a certain timeframe. 

I will link the official update on here as soon as it's available. I can't check all the threads daily but if you have any question, don't hesitate and I'll catch back on it as soon as I can.


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## Matt_NI (Mar 25, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Any chance that this would become global? That NI would restore an offline activation option the way it used to before the Native Access era?



Unfortunately, this is not the scope of the tool and offline activation will not be an official option moving forward. The new activation tool will really focus on the products we have listed in our announcement since they won't be able to be activated at all otherwise.


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## Quasar (Mar 25, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Unfortunately, this is not the scope of the tool and offline activation will not be an official option moving forward. The new activation tool will really focus on the products we have listed in our announcement since they won't be able to be activated at all otherwise.


I originally embraced the Kontakt platform specifically because it respected the right to have a private, offline workstation, and I foolishly trusted Native Instruments to honor the agreements that were in place at the time Kontakt and Kontakt libraries were purchased. Oh well, live and learn...

...I actually have more resentment against NI's customer base than I do against NI, because it's axiomatic that we will only have the human rights we demand, and it's consumer apathy more than anything else that allows the current dismal state of draconian CP to flourish.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 25, 2020)

Quasar said:


> f originally embraced the Kontakt platform specifically because it respected the right to have a private, offline workstation, and I foolishly trusted Native Instruments to honor the agreements that were in place at the time Kontakt and Kontakt libraries were purchased. Oh well, live and learn...
> 
> ...I actually have more resentment against NI's customer base than I do against NI, because it's axiomatic that we will only have the human rights we demand, and it's consumer apathy more than anything else that allows the current dismal state of draconian CP to flourish.


Or to put it another way, few people share the same anti DRM position as you. The majority isn’t always in “the wrong”. It just has different priorities.


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## Matt_NI (Apr 23, 2020)

Hey everyone,

Sorry for the little communication in the past days.

We have updated our announcement with more details on our progress: https://support.native-instruments....ervice-Center-and-Legacy-Products-End-of-Life

Just to give you a quick heads up, we are currently testing all the Kontakt OEM instruments at the moment so they can be activated using Native Access as soon as possible. So far all our tests were successful and so we are positive about the changes we made.

Regarding the applications, we have identified all the products we can activate after the date including the most used ones such as B4 II, Spektral Delay, Pro-53, Vokator and even some of the Traktor version we listed. We will share a full list as soon as we can with all the details and how to proceed if you have one of the instrument listed.


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## Stevie (Apr 23, 2020)

This is awesome news, thanks for caring about the customers!


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## oboemaroni (Apr 23, 2020)

Good to hear!


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## jcrosby (Apr 23, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Sorry for the little communication in the past days.
> 
> ...


Very cool. Thanks for listening! It's really great to see this kind of respect for the end user, especially from one of the biggest names in the industry. IMO more _big names_ should take a page out of your book


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## whinecellar (Apr 25, 2020)

benatural said:


> Just dropping in to say that I also still use East West's Orchestra, Choir, Storm Drum, and RA with Kontakt because these versions are more lightweight than using PLAY.
> 
> So yeah, not a fan of this move by NI.



Agreed, and same here. I have and still use just about every EWQL title ever made in Kontakt format. It works flawlessly and efficiently, and doesn’t require an iLok. In short: it ain’t broke, so it doesn’t need fixed by PLAY versions. And I paid thousands for all of it.

Having to shell out $$$$ more to keep using it - never mind the massive time suck involved in converting a huge chunk of my template to PLAY - and the resulting decrease in performance - it all adds up to a nauseating and ridiculous proposition. It simply shouldn’t be. This is insane.

Somebody PLEASE tell me NI is going to find a reasonable solution. If not, we better start bombarding the crap out of them until they do. Again, insane way to treat paying customers.

EDIT: yes, I have bootable clones of all my drives that contain these authorizations, but what happens when I need to make a hardware change to any of these machines, or move the libraries around?


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## rrichard63 (Apr 25, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> Somebody PLEASE tell me NI is going to find a reasonable solution.


Does post #583 above address your concerns?


Matt_NI said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Sorry for the little communication in the past days.
> 
> ...


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## whinecellar (Apr 25, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> Does post #583 above address your concerns?



Why yes it does, thank you! I clearly hadn’t read every post in this thread yet. Very encouraging - here’s hoping!


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## Wunderhorn (Apr 25, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Regarding the applications, ...



EWQLSO please...! Can you confirm?


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## VladK (Apr 25, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> EWQLSO please...! Can you confirm?


Didn't EWQLSO switch to iLok? We should probably ask EW to provide free upgrade path to iLok version?
I thought it is free though.
Oh, I see, you are talking about KONTAKT version, not PLAY


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## Wunderhorn (Apr 25, 2020)

VladK said:


> Didn't EWQLSO switch to iLOK? We should probably ask EW to rpovide free upgrade pth to iLok verion?


The newer "PLAY" version did. But not the Kontakt version. And that's the one that most people seem to prefer (I certainly do).


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## BradHoyt (Apr 25, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Sorry for the little communication in the past days.
> 
> ...


I hope you're adding Elektrik Piano. It is a Native Instruments product after all. - I have version 1.0, and I can't find a way to get it updated to 1.5.


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## Matt_NI (Apr 28, 2020)

Testing done for the Kontakt instruments






The OEM instruments listed here can now be activated in Native Access: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... nd-of-Life

Native Access can be used on 10.9 and higher if you are using an older OS: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... g-Systems-

These changes also fixed some known issues with 10.15 and it looks like some instruments can also be activated on Catalina (Colossus and Gold for ex)

We will send official communication around this via newsletter and of course update our announcement to remove instruments that are no longer affected.


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## chrisr (Apr 28, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> The OEM instruments listed here can now be activated in Native Access: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... nd-of-Life



If I'm understanding that correctly that's great news, thanks for all your work Matt, really hugely appreciated.


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## Matt_NI (Apr 28, 2020)

chrisr said:


> If I'm understanding that correctly that's great news, thanks for all your work Matt, really hugely appreciated.



Yes, it's definitely positive news 
Just to make it short, the Kontakt libraries we originally listed in our announcement can be activated again after May 31st using Native Access.


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## rrichard63 (Apr 28, 2020)

BradHoyt said:


> I hope you're adding Elektrik Piano. It is a Native Instruments product after all. - I have version 1.0, and I can't find a way to get it updated to 1.5.


A little over two years ago, NI support was able to update me from 1.0 to 1.5 but it took a couple of email requests. At that time, their website had broken links in the update instructions for several of these legacy products. The instructions were still there but you couldn't follow them. I asked NI support to fix the website. I don't know whether they ever did.


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## whinecellar (Apr 28, 2020)

Matt_NI said:


> Yes, it's definitely positive news
> Just to make it short, the Kontakt libraries we originally listed in our announcement can be activated again after May 31st using Native Access.



THANK YOU Matt and NI for making this happen!


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## Henning (Sep 9, 2020)

Quick heads up: set up a new machine and activated the old EWQLSO Gold Pro and Stormdrum 1 via Native Access. Without a problem.


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