# Another midi controller thread



## Dewdman42 (Jan 28, 2019)

I am going to get a new midi controller to sit on my main DAW desk for all manner of music production, including orchestral mockups, but not exclusively. Looking for recommendations for what is out there. There is nobody within 1000 miles of here that carries this stuff to try it out. :-(

My needs

Decent playability
physically quiet
ideally 10 inches deep or less, shorter keyboards could be slightly deeper. Might be able to adapt if I have to though.
61+ keys
Extra assignable faders/knobs would be nice
Now all that being said, I have to my left a very nice fully weighted Kawai digital Piano that has wood keys and great action and I can always use that for recording in a piano part. To my right I have a Roland JP-80 which has about the best semi weighted synth action I have felt in a modern keyboard in the past 10 years, and remarkably quiet to play also. Below it is another fully weighted keyboard, a Yamaha S90.

So the point is, if I really need to record a stellar midi performance I can use some of those keyboards to the side for laying down those parts. The keyboard I seek now is something that sits in front of me while I look at the computer screen and enables me to play in simple parts, or use it together with step entry, easily handle key switches, programming drum parts, etc, etc, etc. The playability does not need to match the others I have mentioned to my left and to my right...but I do want the keyboard to be physically quiet. I have some older 49 key midi controllers from Edirol and Korg that are noisy as ___, clackity, clackity...ick. So yes I'm fussy about playability for sure...and I'd lover for this keyboard to play reasonably well, it would be a dream if it played like my JP80, but unlikely......a lot of the controllers I've tried in recent years play lousy by my standards, whether weighted or semi weighted. But I don't have a lot of space here on the desk either. For example a KKS61 would probably play to a level that I would enjoy, but I can't fit on the desk I'm using most likely..

So anyway, what do people recommend or have to say about any of the following or others for my use case:

Studio Logic Numa Compact 2/2X
Nektar LX88+
Nektar Panorama P6

Novation SL61MK3
NI KK S61 mk2
Alesis VI61
NI KK S88


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## charlieclouser (Jan 28, 2019)

I use the M-Audio Keystation 88es, and the Alesis Q88 is just a rebadged version of that. I chose this model because it is the smallest in both the front-back (depth) and top-bottom (height) dimensions. The keys are not weighted, which is also a big reason I chose it. They are synth-action and not too noisy / clacky. But it does not feel luxurious by any means. Another big point for me was that the top panel is completely smooth and blank with no knobs or faders to get in the way. I put my computer keyboard above the music keyboard, so the top of the music keyboard is basically my wrist rest.

The Nektar LX88+ has similarly compact dimensions, but I don't need or want all the sliders, drum pads etc. - and I played it briefly at NAMM last year and the keyboard feels even cheaper than the Keystation / Q88, which I didn't think was possible. Still, it's compact and has lots of sliders and stuff if you want that.

The Novation and NI keyboards feel much much better than either of the above, but in order to make full use of the knobby features there is additional software that needs to be installed - in the case of NI, if you want the key lights and smart knob controls to work as shown in videos, you pretty much need to be using Komplete Kontrol software, which is a plugin that you instantiate, and then load the actual instrument plugin you want to play inside that. I do not like this approach, as it means that you wind up with Komplete Kontrol as the plugin you see on every single channel as you scan you eyes across the mixer in your DAW. You can make some use of the knobs without using KK, but they won't intelligently display parameter names grabbed from the current DAW channel / plugin. They do make a very nice feeling, if a little heavy, 88-key version but it is not nearly as compact as some, and annoyingly the knobs and such are dead center - so I crossed that off my list.

In the case of Novation mk3 keyboards, I was unable to get a straight answer from the staff in their booth at NAMM about whether it used its own software in between the keyboard and the DAW (not an ideal scenario), used a "control surface profile" that could be installed into Logic (better), used Logic's built-in Mackie Control Universal capabilities (best case scenario), or used the dreaded AutoMap v4 from Novation (absolute worst case scenario). They simply couldn't tell me and couldn't find anyone who could. So I walked. The keyboard did feel nice and expensive though. Five octaves is the biggest they make though, no 88-key version.

I believe the Nektar Panorama series does use the Mackie Control Universal protocol, so working with Logic or other DAWs should be more graceful, software-wise, than the previous two situations. They are not nearly as compact as the Keystation / Q88 / LX88+ though, and also no 88-key version. The knobs and display feel a little cheap-o as well, but they are not very expensive for what you get.

StudioLogic Numa series is certainly nice and compact, but they are also standalone stage keyboards, with a lot of organ drawbars and other crap that would get in my way, so I have not investigated further. At one point I think they made a MIDI Controller-only version with a blank top panel, but it is no longer on their website.


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## whiskers (Jan 28, 2019)

Nektar LX88 seems like a good choice if you don't mind semi-weighted keys. That's probably what I would have chose if I didn't get fully weighted keys.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jan 28, 2019)

I was using a Keystation 88 Mkii (black one) and found it to be too noisy. Not so much in a clunky keys way, but the springs inside got squeaky on certain keys. It became unbearable, so I swapped it for an LX88+.
It's not a stellar board by any means, but I do prefer the Nektar over the M-Audio. It's quieter, a little thinner, and feels better to me. Not just the action, but the wheels, faders, etc.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 28, 2019)

An awful lot of people speak very highly about that LX88+, except for the alleged white key, black key velocity disparity. Sure can't beat the price and its also pretty slim.


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## whiskers (Jan 28, 2019)

Jdiggity1 said:


> I was using a Keystation 88 Mkii (black one) and found it to be too noisy. Not so much in a clunky keys way, but the springs inside got squeaky on certain keys. It became unbearable, so I swapped it for an LX88+.
> It's not a stellar board by any means, but I do prefer the Nektar over the M-Audio. It's quieter, a little thinner, and feels better to me. Not just the action, but the wheels, faders, etc.


how would you describe the action? I know that's a rather qualitative/subjective answer, but always been curious on how those semi-weighted actions feel.


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## markd (Jan 28, 2019)

I've been using the M-Audio 61es for a few years and I just bought the LX88+ about a week ago. The LX88+ is a MASSIVE step up. The quality, feel of the keys and features are so much better. I highly recommend it. And it's really easy to program.

I'd say the action is really great - solid feel and a good balance between synth and light piano action.


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## gpax (Jan 28, 2019)

It’s always good to hear from people that recognize how different keyboards are sometimes not about finding one magic bullet. I just added an Arturia Keystep for quick note entry on my desktop, as I wanted the smaller foot print. My Komplete Kontrol S61 sits to my left now, and my fully weighted 88 Fatar Grand to my right.

With all respect to Charlie...

You are not beholden to run the Komplete Kontrol software with the Komplete keyboard. Of course IF you are loading instances of the software, then the NKS integration does take control of the hardware bells, whistles, and parameter controls. And of course, this is its principle design.

But it is also an assignable MIDI controller, and swaps between the two modes when moving between tracks that mix these two different approaches (and, when controlling levels and automation of audio tracks, of course). Or, if you load just instances of Kontakt directly, it’s arguably no less functional a controller than of the others mentioned - just a pricier one.

At least with Logic, the Native integration of Komplete keyboards (MK2) means also having access to Logic’s mixer via the knobs and color displays. Again this is irrespective of running the Komplete Kontrol software for select libraries, and gives hands on access to Logic.

Perhaps another way to see it, compared to other options, is that the KK keyboards do double/triple duty if/when needed.

I find that I instantiate about 25 - 30% of the time in Komplete Kontrol, for various functionality.


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## J-M (Jan 29, 2019)

I have the original Impact LX88, and if the keybed is the same in the new version, I wouldn't recommend it if you can afford something more expensive. It's too noisy for my needs and there is indeed an imbalance in sensitivity between the black and white keys. It has served me quite well ever since I bought it (3-4 years ago) but I'm hoping to upgrade next year...


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

MrLinssi said:


> I have the original Impact LX88, and if the keybed is the same in the new version, I wouldn't recommend it if you can afford something more expensive. It's too noisy for my needs and there is indeed an imbalance in sensitivity between the black and white keys. It has served me quite well ever since I bought it (3-4 years ago) but I'm hoping to upgrade next year...



what specifically is better that is more expensive? what do you think you will upgrade to?


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## AdamKmusic (Jan 29, 2019)

I've got the Nektar Impact 88+, had it for about the past year and it's definitely worked without any hitches. Haven't noticed any velocity issues and it's not too clunky sounding. I'm looking to upgrade to a fully weighted controller when the right deal comes along! 

I'd also recommend the Alesis VI61, loved the feel of that keyboard moreso than the Impact 88! Quite a lot of knobs on it but that wasn't an issue for me as the keyboard would sit under my desk leaving just the keys showing.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

I'm so concerned about clackity keys that I'm even considering just making my Roli Rise my primary DAW midi controller in front of my monitor. I do find it a bit mentally straining to play though, because your fingers have to hit the little ridges so precisely, maybe I'll get more used to it,.....but its DEAD QUIET. I can always turn to my left or my right to record something more elaborate on my full size keyboards with excellent action.

What is impressing me about the LX88+ from what I'm reading is the Logic DAW integration, which is not as elaborate as the Nektar Panorama stuff, but there is elegance in the simplicity behind it. You can easily put it in a mode where the knobs at the top are mapped to LogicPro smart controls, for example. Transport buttons, including UNDO and setting cycle points...very handy. The product manager for Nektar that has been doing all the you tube presentations over the past 4-5 years impresses me also, I can tell they are putting some really good design thought into that kind of stuff and the Impact series is something that is not as complicated or deep as the panorama stuff, but maybe plenty deep enough for most of us, so long as the semi-weighted keyboard action is ok.

Its interesting because I read around the net and I'd say about 30% pipe up that they think the keys are cheap and lousy, look for something better, but 60% say they like the action a lot and are kind of impressed, especially for the low cost. I doubt they compare to Komplete Kontrol, which is 3x the price and takes up more space and I doubt they compare to my other keyboards, that is for sure, but I can say that I have avoided Akai, M-Audio, Arturia and all the other inexpensive midi controllers over the past decade or two because every one of them felt like crap to me, so... if the LX88+ is basically in the same camp as that...don't know if I will find it acceptable...especially if its clackity. There is a good possibility I'd be one of the 30% complaining that you get what you pay for.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

thanks for the tip about the ales is VI61, that looks to have a nice size and buttons too, I will add that to my list for consideration. What specifically about the keys and action do you like better?


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## J-M (Jan 29, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> what specifically is better that is more expensive? what do you think you will upgrade to?



I'm not sure. At the moment my best candidate is probably NI Komplete Kontrol S88 MKII...


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

So to be clear about my original question, I am definitely NOT interested in a weighted controller in front of my DAW. Many discussions on this forum about midi controllers seems to center around which 88 key controller feels like a piano. If your comment earlier about the LX88 feeling lousy was because you are wanting more of a weighted keyboard, that is understandable entirely, but how does it feel compared to other semi-weighted keyboards?


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## J-M (Jan 29, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> So to be clear about my original question, I am definitely NOT interested in a weighted controller in front of my DAW. Many discussions on this forum about midi controllers seems to center around which 88 key controller feels like a piano. If your comment earlier about the LX88 feeling lousy was because you are wanting more of a weighted keyboard, that is understandable entirely, but how does it feel compared to other semi-weighted keyboards?



Sorry mate. I can't give you a proper answer since I haven't had the chance to try many keyboards, so I can't say how the action on mine compares to other semi-weighted ones. My only gripe with lx88 is the noise and the sensitivity issue with the black keys.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

noise meaning the keys are clackity? Roger that.... :-( that would be a deal breaker for me. Other users have reported them to be not too bad that way...so... not sure what to think, if I get one I'll probably have to buy through guitar center so I can easily return it.

The black key issue is definitely a concern I have read about, but some people don't seem to notice it and I haven't seen any posts about it since they came out with the + version, but supposedly they didn't change anything about the keyboard in the + version either....so.... 

I will say that I enjoyed very much the feel of the Komplete Kontrol S61 mk1 when I played one in a store a few years back. Fatar keybed and it plays well. However, I'm not into the whole Komplete thing really, its nearly never the instruments I would choose to work with...and they are fairly deep keyboards also in terms of size, and pricey. The S88 is not an option at all for me, it would not fit on my desk and I don't really want a weighted controller there either, but I haven't ever been able to find one to play to see how weighted it actually is. Many people say good things though...


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## Jaap (Jan 29, 2019)

Just like what Charlie posted, I also have M-Audio Keystation, specially for more non-piano playing, keys are easy to go on. I have this thing already for many years and just does what it does, it plays easy. There are reports that people experience broken keys and other problems, but never run into that. The downside is that it has no aftertouch.
The other I use is the Komplete Kontrol S61 MK2 and that was one is lovely, semi weighted keys, aftertouch. I use this one primarely for my DAW work. It also fits perfectly under my desk (a customised IKEA desk) and as lovely extra its the control functions.
On both this keyboards the noise is ok


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## markd (Jan 29, 2019)

I just bought the LX88+ last week, and before buying it, I did a lot of research on the various controllers currently available. One thing that I read from many users online is that quite a few controllers have that velocity issue with the black keys. Some controllers are more noticeable than others. People seem to attribute that issue with the physical size and shape of the black keys versus the white keys.

I honestly don't know how true or false these claims are. All I can say is that so far I haven't noticed it on my LX88+ (keeping in mind that I've only had it for a week).


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

Well its interesting and makes me want to do some experiments with all of my existing keyboards.. the simple truth is that a black key is shorter, thus having less leverage. So that explains why a black key would feel a little more resistant then a white key... what I read about the LX88 is that the black keys are stiffer to play(less leverage) and yet produce somewhat higher velocity then the whites..making black notes pop out as louder. This is particularly noticeable if you're using a sample library that has some kind of fancy stuff that happens at different velocity levels. So I have read...

What I surmise is that maybe people have to hit them harder because they are stiffer, thus they get a higher velocity...or perhaps Nektar tried to compensate for the fact they are a bit stiffer to play, not sure...but a lot of people have definitely complained about it and noticed it straight away, though some said they got used to it. And every complaint I read was a few years ago on the LC88, not the plus. So I don't know if its been quietly corrected. My acoustic piano has shorter black keys then white keys and while its easier to play trills at the ends of white keys then on black keys (due to leverage), I do not notice any volume differences between the keys... Based on the number of complaints about the LX88..there might be something to it...

if you haven't noticed anything in a week, that is a good sign...


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## Tod (Jan 29, 2019)

All my keyboards are very old, I've got 2 with 61 keys and 1 piano style with 88 weighted keys.

I'm going to have to get something sometime soon, and among my main concerns is the velocity intensity. Do all the midi keyboards today play all 127 velocities fairly evenly? I know the keyboards I have now do not play the full 127 velocities.

It's been a long time since I checked on midi keyboards.


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## charlieclouser (Jan 29, 2019)

gpax said:


> With all respect to Charlie...
> 
> You are not beholden to run the Komplete Kontrol software with the Komplete keyboard. Of course IF you are loading instances of the software, then the NKS integration does take control of the hardware bells, whistles, and parameter controls. And of course, this is its principle design.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's why I was careful to say in my post that you needed to run KK "if you want the key lights and knobs to work like you see in the videos" - meaning, the amazing integration with Kontakt that you see in so many demo videos of Kontakt libraries. I was bummed when I found out that the NI keyboards didn't "see" Kontakt that way, giving key lights that correspond to colored zones on Kontakt's on-screen keyboard to indicate key switch zones etc., unless Kontakt was loaded inside the KK plugin.

That's still the case with Kontakt and KK, right?


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2019)

Tod said:


> Do all the midi keyboards today play all 127 velocities fairly evenly? I know the keyboards I have now do not play the full 127 velocities



That is a good question because new keyboards have many, sometimes dozens, of choices about which velocities they actually play. Some of them by default may not play the full range even if they are able to do so; unfortunately it's pretty detailed and fiddly.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2019)

JohnG said:


> That is a good question because new keyboards have many, sometimes dozens, of choices about which velocities they actually play. Some of them by default may not play the full range even if they are able to do so; unfortunately it's pretty detailed and fiddly.



I have two keyboards hooked up, both old. My Kurzweil K2500X (weighted keys, Fatar action, the one I normally use as a controller) sends the full range, but the synth-action keyboard on my Yamaha VL1 is severely restricted... to a range of 2 - 127. 

What I don't know is whether they'll send every value in between, but I can't say that's ever been an issue - and I've never felt the need to change from the default (linear) velocity curve. The useful range is probably between about 25 to 127, as a practical matter, and of course all this is equally dependent on the receiving instrument.

As an aside, my prized Keith McMillen BopPad (percussion controller) sends between 22 and 127 - but often you do need to tweak the response to switch between hand/finger and stick playing.

Bottom line, I think the quality of the keyboard is inseparable from the velocity range it transmits, and how much control you have over it. The VL1 has a very good synth-action keyboard, and I'd give the K2500X about an 8.5 out of 10.


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## Tod (Jan 29, 2019)

Thanks John and Nick, My main keyboard is an old Kurzweil K2000 unweighted that I've had for over 25 years, so I really could use a new keyboard. 

I play all my midi in so the velocity range is important, especially for drums and piano. Right now I have to do a lot of velocity editing when I'm done.


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## jbuhler (Jan 29, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> That's still the case with Kontakt and KK, right?


Yes, though you can program lights as part of a preset and get some of that functionality.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

Alright I drove to guitar center 100 miles away. I’m there right now. They have:


Lx88+
Kk s61mk2
Akai advance61
Akai mpk249
Alesis v49
Maudio code61
Novation launchkey49
Keystation88
Playing them all....

Observations:


Lx88+ is definitely the quietest of the bunch, the keystation88 is a close second but really feels cheap to play, lm88+ also doesn’t have the greatest feel but it’s definitely the quiestest keyboard here. No idea about velocity response as they aren’t hooked up to anything. Feels a bit springy especially the black keys a little stiff, but not necessarily bad except after you play the kk a minute
Kk s61 feels the best of all of them, very smooth keyboard not too stiff and not too light. Pretty loud though with both a thunk at the bottom and a clack whenthr key returns.
Akai advance61 feels similar as the lx88 a bit springier then kk, but by no means bad. However the keys are a little shorter then the others which feels non standard. Almost as loud as the kk with thunks at the bottom. REALLY nice knobs.
Novation launchhey is totally awful in every way
Alesis v49, definitely not great
Maudio code61, cheap feel and loud as f___
Which do I like the best? It would definitely be between lx88, kks61 and Akai advance. They each have pros and cons but I’d say they are all three probably quiet enough and play well enough to work. The lx88 does kind of sit in the middle, it’s 1/2 or 1/3 the price of the other two and the quietest. Akai is decent with nice knobs and MAYBE slightly better feel then lx88, but a bit noisier and the keys are short, whichvmight be weird. Expensive too. Kk is expensive but feels great, as a controller should feel, still a bit noisy but not terrible. But triple the price and bigger and the whole komplete kontrol concept might be a headache.

So there you have it. According to me


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2019)

Tod said:


> Thanks John and Nick, My main keyboard is an old Kurzweil K2000 unweighted that I've had for over 25 years, so I really could use a new keyboard.
> 
> I play all my midi in so the velocity range is important, especially for drums and piano. Right now I have to do a lot of velocity editing when I'm done.



I had to do a double-take at the K2000 being over 25 years old, but it really is!

What I remember of mine is that its keyboard was comparable to the Yamaha ones. But if you're spending a lot of time editing velocities, I'm obviously wrong.

I have to say that I'd probably buy another used 2500X if mine gave up. It has a good weighted keyboard, eight sliders, a big and a little ribbon controller, and the upper register of its piano sounds like Dave Grusin, should I ever want that kind of sound.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

Playing a few more minutes the Akai is definitely smoother to play then the lx88. Significantly so. But lx88 is definitely the quietest. There is just something “off” about it compared to all my other older synths and fatar in general. The kk really feels the best to play and the Akai is not far behind it. Lx88 the quietest and more keys.

I’d say I probably like lx88 daw integration the best and proabably Akai second.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> It would definitely be between lx88, kks61 and Akai advance. They each have pros and cons but I’d say they are all three probably quiet enough and play well enough to work.



I've never even thought about how quiet a keyboard is!


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

Well I’ve had some klackity ones in my time and they drive me crazy. Typically the older ones like your kurzweil are not cheap and klackity


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 29, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Playing a few more minutes the Akai is definitely smoother to play then the lx88. Significantly so. But lx88 is definitely the quietest. There is just something “off” about it compared to all my other older synths and fatar in general. The kk really feels the best to play and the Akai is not far behind it. Lx88 the quietest and more keys.
> 
> I’d say I probably like lx88 daw integration the best and proabably Akai second.


Th only thing I can add to the convo, is that I considered the Nektar LX61+ to have the best velocity response of all the budget keys I've ever owned. YMMV etc


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 29, 2019)

I definitely liked it better then the other inexpensive ones I tried that is true. However I have to say it can’t keep up feel wise with the more expensive ones. I do like it better then maudio stuff and other $300 or less keyboards but it’s in that category still in my mind. But not unusable by any means. For me I would without question use my other keyboards like my s90 or Jupiter 80 to record anything requiring some playing finesse. However the lx88 would work totally fine for simple stuff and perhaps fine for orch work, laying down bass parts and simple chords and lines. And it’s quiet. And cheap. We’ll see. I need to do some research about komplete kontrol and Akai advance


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Well I’ve had some klackity ones in my time and they drive me crazy. Typically the older ones like your kurzweil are not cheap and klackity



It's a good keyboard, but actually it does have a key that makes a squidgy sound. But I'm way too lazy to take all those screws out again just to figure out how to fix that.


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## jbuhler (Jan 30, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Alright I drove to guitar center 100 miles away. I’m there right now. They have:
> 
> 
> Lx88+
> ...


I have the kks61 and really like it. (I never use the kk software, which I find extremely kludgy, except to set up presets for the lights and knobs, which are very handy.) The DAW integration is great so long as you use one of the DAWs that is supported. Otherwise you are out of luck.


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## gpax (Jan 30, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, that's why I was careful to say in my post that you needed to run KK "if you want the key lights and knobs to work like you see in the videos" - meaning, the amazing integration with Kontakt that you see in so many demo videos of Kontakt libraries. I was bummed when I found out that the NI keyboards didn't "see" Kontakt that way, giving key lights that correspond to colored zones on Kontakt's on-screen keyboard to indicate key switch zones etc., unless Kontakt was loaded inside the KK plugin.
> 
> That's still the case with Kontakt and KK, right?


Yes, but... I’ve come to approach this keyboard from three perspectives: its host integration in Logic (mixer display and accessibility), a keyboard action I really like (the S61 keys, I’m talking about, where I’ve always preferred synth-style response for playing legato lines), and for select NKS libraries within Komplete Kontrol, which is about a third of the time.

To your point, I have also loaded some non-NKS libraries, like Orchestral Tools, within Kontakt, inside of Komplete Kontrol, to have quick visual access to keyswitches. Now OT is starting to support NKS, hence not just the visual light guide; the expected access to parameters via the knobs and visual display are integrated as well.

Only NI knows for certain why it cannot simply allow Kontakt to relay the rudimentary light guide access. But this was never a deal killer for me, as any other keyboard on the market doesn’t let me have keyswitches that light up to visualize my Kontakt orchestral libraries this way. The comparisons made are on the KK series own terms, are they not?

But many/most of the orchestral developers I use have gotten on board with NKS support. As I started with the original KK keyboard, and now use the MK2, the integration with both Kontakt, and even several non-Kontakt libraries, has been on a steady, if not meteoric incline. Those who do not support NKS are becoming the outliers.

I am suggesting to the OP (and to the discussion), a slightly different angle, which is to not necessarily dismiss this keyboard as an option because it doesn’t load up every Kontakt library with lights. At least for my workflow, it does a number of things well.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 30, 2019)

Thanks for that insight gpax. I am looking at the KK S61 very closely right now as I definitely preferred that fatar keybed by a long shot. Just trying to figure out how it would work with my large collection of plugins, most of which are not NKS. 

Its also the most expensive midi controller by a long shot..so dunno yet. 

I actually don't care about the light guide at all. There are a few instruments I might be able to use NKS, but generally I would probably end up in midi mode most of the time.


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## gpax (Jan 30, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Thanks for that insight gpax. I am looking at the KK S61 very closely right now as I definitely preferred that fatar keybed by a long shot. Just trying to figure out how it would work with my large collection of plugins, most of which are not NKS.
> 
> Its also the most expensive midi controller by a long shot..so dunno yet.
> 
> I actually don't care about the light guide at all. There are a few instruments I might be able to use NKS, but generally I would probably end up in midi mode most of the time.


Well, it is still an assignable MIDI controller, so will work with whatever plugins you use.

That’s the point I am stressing with respect to where it stands amongst the choices, with caveats to its admittedly premium price.

Too bad the A series are not the same key bed (or at least that’s what I’ve read from the specs). Have you, or anyone else, tried those models out?


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## charlieclouser (Jan 30, 2019)

All good points gpax - I am still quite attracted to the NI keyboards for a variety of reasons, the big stopper for me is the centrally located knobs and display, which are right where I want to put my Mac keyboard and trackball. Unless and until I redesign my desk to accommodate a sliding drawer that would allow the NI keyboard to retract (like Nathan Barr's setup) it's an ergonomic stumbling block.

I've given serious consideration to disassembling the NI 88 keyboard and relocating the knobs / display section to the far left or right ends of the top panel, and on the v1 of the keyboard this would have been easier as the top panel was in three sections - but the new version with the non-touch-strip mod and pitch wheels has a top panel that's all one piece, so this becomes even more difficult / impossible.

So, a drawer it is I guess.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 30, 2019)

gpax said:


> with caveats to its admittedly premium price.
> 
> Too bad the A series are not the same key bed (or at least that’s what I’ve read from the specs). Have you, or anyone else, tried those models out?



yes yesterday at guitar center they had an A series next to an S series and there is a slight difference. The A series is still better then the low budget models, but its definitely kind of light and cheap feeling and louder compared to the S series.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 30, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> like Nathan Barr's setup



Is this what you're talking about?


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 30, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> All good points gpax - I am still quite attracted to the NI keyboards for a variety of reasons, the big stopper for me is the centrally located knobs and display, which are right where I want to put my Mac keyboard and trackball. Unless and until I redesign my desk to accommodate a sliding drawer that would allow the NI keyboard to retract (like Nathan Barr's setup) it's an ergonomic stumbling block.
> 
> I've given serious consideration to disassembling the NI 88 keyboard and relocating the knobs / display section to the far left or right ends of the top panel, and on the v1 of the keyboard this would have been easier as the top panel was in three sections - but the new version with the non-touch-strip mod and pitch wheels has a top panel that's all one piece, so this becomes even more difficult / impossible.
> 
> So, a drawer it is I guess.


Same thoughts here.
Imagine if NI released a "split" version of the 88 controller. Keybed, wheels and lights on a single unit to slide under the desk, with a separate desktop "module" featuring the twin displays/controls.

Kinda like the old school Akai S6000.
I'd be on that like a fly to s**t. We can but dream.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 30, 2019)

Bought a used S61 two years ago for $400 and never had a problem with it. Great light weighted keyboard. A month ago I picked up an “open box” S88 for $500 on Amazon. I really like seeing all the keyswitches and the keybed feels great, can take a beating...

But there is a big reason I didn’t go for mk2’s. I like the design of the first generation better. The strips are great (and ideal for the “instant” pitch bends that can be repeatable, just by tapping the same spot on the strip) AND the lightguide is wide and clear. I honestly hoped they would go in the OPPOSITE direction with the light guide and make the entire key light up. Not brightly, but enough to see it in a sunlite room.

I flip through many instruments a day and many use the lightguide and have mapped controls. It is a dream controller, very solid, and used is not pricey (check ebay or reverb.com) $500-$600. NI wants people to be using it to audition sounds and use their Komplete Kontrol browser, but that still has a long way to go and I never use KK that way. KK is good as a lightguide hookup and live performance control with knobs that auto assign, a cool arppegiator (is that even in mk2?) and chord builder, but that’s about it.

The browsing is too basic at best (the latest version of KK is still whoafully behind Omnisphere 1) , I still end up using Kontakt or Omni or Repro for sound browsing and tweaking. So to me KK and the keyboard are one and the same, for live performance capture. Which the first generation does beautifully. I just wanted to get a good new “open box” one before they completely dissapear.


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## dflood (Jan 30, 2019)

So is it for legit technical reasons or just marketing bloody mindedness that none of the cool features of the KK keyboards are available in Kontakt? As soon as I switch from Komplete to Kontakt it’s just another midi controller.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 30, 2019)

I don't have an S61 to test this theory out, but from what I can see, there still might be advantages to using Komplete Kontrol, even for plugins that are not NKS, because it easily accesses their automatable parameters and assigns them to banks of knobs on the keyboard and you can pretty easily reassign different parameters from the plugin to the knobs.

Conversely, with the so called "midi mode" I think you have to actually use midi CC automation, which is not always ideal for controlling plugin parameters. In midi mode I guess it would just function with a resolution of 0-127 and you'd use Logic's smart controls or whatever...but perhaps when used through Komplete Kontrol, you get more resolution from the knobs since Komplete Kontrol can communicate with the S61 at a deeper level then just midi. From demo's I've seen on you tube today, that seems to be the case and I think could be useful.

The S61 also ships with Maschine Essential now too, which is not without merit.


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## gpax (Jan 30, 2019)

Let me just step out on a limb here and say that the first-generation Komplete Kontrol S61 I had is in storage, not being used, and if there's a demonstrated need amongst this thread, I'd love to work something out on the very cheap to even free side of life, with maybe someone covering the shipping here in the US. Life has been very good to me this past year, and I'd rather see it benefit someone who would use (needs) it, rather than hassle with a sale.

It does not have the display, but is the same great key bed. PM and let me know if this is something that could help someone out, especially if you are on a budget and willing to live with a still very great-conditioned hand-me-down.

EDIT: Here is the manual on the NI site. You can see what features the original model had: https://www.native-instruments.com/...TROL_S_Series_MK1_SW_1_9_1_Manual_English.pdf


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## Deelanee Orchestra (Mar 12, 2019)

gpax said:


> Let me just step out on a limb here and say that the first-generation Komplete Kontrol S61 I had is in storage, not being used, and if there's a demonstrated need amongst this thread, I'd love to work something out on the very cheap to even free side of life, with maybe someone covering the shipping here in the US. Life has been very good to me this past year, and I'd rather see it benefit someone who would use (needs) it, rather than hassle with a sale.
> 
> It does not have the display, but is the same great key bed. PM and let me know if this is something that could help someone out, especially if you are on a budget and willing to live with a still very great-conditioned hand-me-down.
> 
> EDIT: Here is the manual on the NI site. You can see what features the original model had: https://www.native-instruments.com/...TROL_S_Series_MK1_SW_1_9_1_Manual_English.pdf



I'm on a budget and am shopping for more keys ( I got a 25key Arturia ) which is the reason I was reading this thread. I've considered getting the KK Mk1 (and am aware of the differences and even of some integration problems) because I don't need all the bells and whistles of new gear, but people around here are selling them for nearly the price of new ones! 
I really need more keys (Octave shift is driving me crazy) even though my music is unfortunately not providing enough revenue to invest... Could we work something out?


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## gpax (Mar 12, 2019)

Elaine Gallant said:


> I'm on a budget and am shopping for more keys ( I got a 25key Arturia ) which is the reason I was reading this thread. I've considered getting the KK Mk1 (and am aware of the differences and even of some integration problems) because I don't need all the bells and whistles of new gear, but people around here are selling them for nearly the price of new ones!
> I really need more keys (Octave shift is driving me crazy) even though my music is unfortunately not providing enough revenue to invest... Could we work something out?


Hi Elaine. Welcome. That offer was quickly responded to in January. So sorry. 

Best, G


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## Wunderhorn (Mar 12, 2019)

Another heads up for Nektar LX88+. I have had one for a while now and it works nicely. I also have another GX49 for keyswitches. Works with Logic and MIDI Learn reacts as expected to the knobs and sliders. Pretty simple setup.
One thing to note is that these controllers have probably some of the smallest footprints in terms of physical dimensions. Something to consider if space is of concern.


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## Deelanee Orchestra (Mar 12, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> Another heads up for Nektar LX88+. I have had one for a while now and it works nicely. I also have another GX49 for keyswitches. Works with Logic and MIDI Learn reacts as expected to the knobs and sliders. Pretty simple setup.
> One thing to note is that these controllers have probably some of the smallest footprints in terms of physical dimensions. Something to consider if space is of concern.


With an 88 don't you have enough for key switches? Or is it just because you prefer a separate setup?


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## Wunderhorn (Mar 12, 2019)

Elaine Gallant said:


> With an 88 don't you have enough for key switches? Or is it just because you prefer a separate setup?



I prefer having the keyswitches all in the same spot and that is not possible with 88 keys. There are instruments that go pretty much all the way down and others that go all the way up, I would have to place keyswitches for these instrument groups separately and that is too much hassle. Also it helps to keep them on any MIDI channel while the instrument patches sometimes will be on a specific channel (e.g. those few that I have not set up for articulation switching via ArtzID). Once you have a larger template with sound libraries also from all kind of different manufacturers working with two controllers proved to be the best way to keep things as simple and straight-forward as possible.


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## Deelanee Orchestra (Mar 13, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> I prefer having the keyswitches all in the same spot and that is not possible with 88 keys. There are instruments that go pretty much all the way down and others that go all the way up, I would have to place keyswitches for these instrument groups separately and that is too much hassle. Also it helps to keep them on any MIDI channel while the instrument patches sometimes will be on a specific channel (e.g. those few that I have not set up for articulation switching via ArtzID). Once you have a larger template with sound libraries also from all kind of different manufacturers working with two controllers proved to be the best way to keep things as simple and straight-forward as possible.


Really interesting workflow, thanks for explaining. I'll consider this for my own setup by possibly buying a 49 kews and keeping my Arturia Minilab for this key switches setup.


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## bill5 (Mar 14, 2019)

I don't have time to like all these replies but great stuff here, thanks to all. LX88 is on my short list. Has anyone used the Swissonic 88 or Studiologic SL88? How do they stack up to the Nektar LX88?


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