# Deleted



## Dear Villain (Mar 31, 2018)

Vent time: So, after years of keeping my music low profile on my own websites, and working primarily with classical music for live performance, I decided to start a Soundcloud. I put up a few of my orchestral works (not my concert music, but more film/game stuff) and promoted the heck out of it. Today, I've got 2 followers. Yup, 2 followers. Even with shout outs to Facebook, friend shares (I can see people sharing links, but nobody actually subscribing!), Tweets, etc. and still only 2 followers.

How do you guys do it? I'm not a social media guy by any stretch, but it seems that those with 1000s of Soundcloud followers must be doing something I haven't figured out. Any tips?


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## RGcomposer (Mar 31, 2018)

Followers generally mean nothing unless they have a personal interest in your creations. IT SUCKS SO HARD.. When you have slaved away over something and get hardly any pull online. Unfortunately we are a niche and with that comes low traffic. Now take Daniel James for example. He interacts with his audience frequently.. It makes people want to go to his channel. I mean I try to tune into his streams and we pretty much write the same stuff. It's all about incentives. I like what he has to say so I take time out of my day to listen.

Don't let it bother you. I get about 50 plays a day and it's mostly on 7 year old EDM.


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## MatFluor (Mar 31, 2018)

I only recently started to leverage Social Media...

As said...only recently...2 Videos on YouTube [not linking it here, it's not my thread here] 

I think the key is to build a community - talk to the people, encourage them to listen to your stuff, and not just "drop a link" everywhere. Make them anticipate your next track, build a following by not just "putting tracks out" but also by interacting. Saying "thanks", reacting to comments, asking questions they could answer etc.etc.


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## Dear Villain (Mar 31, 2018)

Thanks for your insights, RGcomposer and MatFluor. It's funny, because I have another business focussed on digital content creation that attracts a large fan base simply with the product. I can neglect my social media, YouTube videos and forums for months at a time and still derive good sales and traffic. With my music, which is where my training and passion lies, I never get any momentum online, even if/when people give me positive feedback. Supply and demand, I guess. It's funny, because even though I benefit financially from my other content business, I resent it sometimes, as I'd much rather have success with my music (beyond my own satisfaction creating it, which of course, is success as well!)

Dave


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## ka00 (Mar 31, 2018)

Whenever I wonder about these kinds of things, I think of this quote:

(And maybe these days, I’d change the word ‘good’ to ‘great’)


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## Paul T McGraw (Mar 31, 2018)

@Dear Villain I suppose it is a matter of supply and demand. We are constantly surrounded by music, much more so than in the years before mp3 and Soundcould. When there is such an overwhelming amount of free supply, people get lazy about going out and actually searching for the highest quality. Add to the oversupply the increasing stratification of the market into lots of very specific genres. Many people never seek to hear anything outside of their favorite genre whether it is urban or country or blues or film music or classical. So we composers have a VERY hard time building up any kind of following for our music. It seems that today, either you get millions of hits, or none.

I liked your track. The concepts were great. The midi performance still needs some work, in my opinion, which might be wrong. Just my two cents. I would have liked a wider dynamic range. Also the dreaded "big organ" sound was lurking in the shadows in several places. You combat that with more humanization, and more dynamic variety. Concept, composition (melody or themes or motives, harmony, structure, orchestration), midi-performance, mixing, and finally mastering. Wow, there is a lot that goes into a good piece of music.


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## Saxer (Mar 31, 2018)

If it wasn't your own music, would you go to your account and follow? And if so, why?


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## Dear Villain (Mar 31, 2018)

Saxer said:


> If it wasn't your own music, would you go to your account and follow? And if so, why?



Saxer, don't know if this is a sincere question, or a subtle way of implying my music isn't any good. Assuming the former, it's simply not that easy for me to "imagine it is someone else's music". I like it, or I would not write and share it. I believe it is worth a listen and should enjoy a wider audience. But, every artist feels that way about their own music, as they should. Also, I'm not one to spend a lot of time listening to other music, as I'm always writing my own and don't want to be unduly influenced. I know if everyone followed my path, we'd all be islands unto ourselves, writing only for ourselves, so I am grateful that some people aren't like me in that regard 

At the end of the day, it is what Paul suggested about the overwhelming amount of content and the fact that everyone, myself included, wants to gain traction. It's a wonderful paradox, where everyone has a voice, and is encouraged to share that voice...then because everyone's shared their voice, nobody's voice can be heard through the cacophony.

Cheers for the food for thought, guys!
Dave


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## Saxer (Mar 31, 2018)

I didn't want to imply anything. Sorry if it sounds like that! I only recommend to look from the listeners end. What is interesting for a listener what he/she couldn't get elsewhere? My own experience is that there's so much music around that nobody really knows what to listen to first. Myself included. Normal consumers get stories and media around the performers... things like a star image. Music is mostly a side pack. Then there's music for musicians. Mostly good players on their instruments with followers playing the same instrument on a lower skill level. Then there is music for peer groups: metal fans, gothic, country, rap... a group of people feeling connected by listening to the same music. Movie fans that love everything in movies... so they like the music too. Music producers... people around here, love to talk and learn about music production. Some show their music including the making of and get a lot of followers. And there is music for media, music for sports, music for yoga... etc. But actually nobody looks for _just_ music. At least in my experience.


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## Dear Villain (Mar 31, 2018)

Saxer,

Very, very well put. In fact, you really did hit the nail on the head. In virtually any form of entertainment, the story surrounding the act/performer/subject is always more interesting to the audience than the product itself. In fact, I should know that the success I've had with my concert accordion and clarinet duo, Acclarion, in terms of 15 years of live performance, recordings, good management, etc. all owes to the fact that two musicians go on stage in front of a "suspicious crowd" (as in, are we really going to sit here and listen to an accordion and clarinet play a concert for 2 hours?!) and win them over with humour, stories, and "shtick" in addition to of course, being reasonably skilled musicians 

But, doing the same with my composition activities is much harder, because I don't have any following, any way of penetrating through the vast field of other talented composers, etc. It is about the story. It is about the built in community of followers that a particular genre has. It is about everything but the music, which only gets recognition after the following has already been made, typically by offering a service/information/product to the end user that benefits them in their own pursuit. I guess it reinforces the idea that we truly must be our own biggest fan and be proud of what we do, irrespective of what others say (or don't say) about our work.

Thanks again for the great food for thought! Even though I know that others experience these same feelings, it's nice to hear people actually talk about it, and open up. Kind of an informal therapy session 

Take care,
Dave


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## Saxer (Mar 31, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> In virtually any form of entertainment, the story surrounding the act/performer/subject is always more interesting to the audience than the product itself.


I wouldn't say that the surrounding story is more interesting. It's kind of an anchor. Without the music most entertainment wouldn't be interesting too. Music transports the emotion. Most people can't talk about music and emotions. It's too abstract and too personal. And most people doesn't have the vocabulary to talk about music. Concert critics in local newspapers show this distinctly. And even here in a musicians forum it's mainly tech talk.
It's easier to talk about people, events, jokes. It's like food. Nobody talks about taste. In tons of cooking shows you can see people trying fresh cooked food and make 'mmmmmmmh'! The rest is kitchen work. We probably need something to hold onto. Something we can talk about.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 31, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> It is about everything but the music, which only gets recognition after the following has already been made, typically by offering a service/information/product to the end user that benefits them in their own pursuit.


This.
I've got nearly 17,000 Soundcloud followers. Here's why (I think!)
I create "beats" for a living - that's R&B instrumentals. There's a marketplace of people who are specifically looking for this kind of music and so my Soundcloud profile appears in Google searches etc. And my numbers are small cheese compared to some of my contemporaries.

Point is, my music is a service that fulfils a need that other people have. It's not a mark of quality. If I created a Soundcloud profile of my own personal music (poor man's John Williams set to fictional Star Wars scenes...) then I wouldn't get the traction.


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## and- (Apr 1, 2018)

I haven't managed to figure out how to use soundcloud effectively. Youtube has worked sort of OK for me. These are the things that I noticed:

1) People seem to like a video of a real performer more than an audio recording. If you can obtain one, it helps a lot!

2) When you have video recordings of real musicians, more people are watching, liking, sharing, commenting etc., because you get more than one audience: composer's audience and performer's audience.

3) You could combine different media into a single product. This is an example. I was once asked to write a music piece for a large table tennis tournament in China (actually, this is a few tournaments during one season). After writing that piece (a cross of EDM and classical ) I made a table tennis video, and used my music as the background. So far, this has been my most successful music piece, at least in terms of hits, likes, comments etc. I had to make the video content interesting: it is a high quality slow motion footage of a top player, but it looks like many people who came to watch table tennis, liked the music too.

I hope this helps.


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## and- (Apr 1, 2018)

There is one more thing. Why did you decide to promote only this kind of your music? Perhaps, publishing only your film/game stuff does not put your music (and your craft) in the best light. As I feel it, music for film is a sort of accompaniment to the picture. It supposed to enhance the emotional impact of the picture, to work together with the picture. Without the picture, the music has nothing to support or enhance, and, in isolation, may seem less good than it actually is - like a single voice of a fugue.

Maybe, when you are promoting audio only, it would be a good idea to also promote some pieces that are meant to be heard without any supporting media.


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## KEM (Apr 1, 2018)

and- said:


> There is one more thing. Why did you decide to promote only this kind of your music? Perhaps, publishing only your film/game stuff does not put your music (and your craft) in the best light. As I feel it, music for film is a sort of accompaniment to the picture. It supposed to enhance the emotional impact of the picture, to work together with the picture. Without the picture, the music has nothing to support or enhance, and, in isolation, may seem less good than it actually is - like a single voice of a fugue.
> 
> Maybe, when you are promoting audio only, it would be a good idea to also promote some pieces that are meant to be heard without any supporting media.



This is the reason I stopped making media type music without a scene going with it, you aren't given any context to the piece, sure I have an idea of what would be happening in my head, but nobody that listens to it will so it won't make sense and probably won't impress anyone. That's why I started downloading videos from YouTube and rescoring them with my own music, and people are much more impressed with what I make now because they have something else to accompany it and it forms a complete experience.


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## Dear Villain (Apr 1, 2018)

and- said:


> There is one more thing. Why did you decide to promote only this kind of your music? Perhaps, publishing only your film/game stuff does not put your music (and your craft) in the best light. As I feel it, music for film is a sort of accompaniment to the picture. It supposed to enhance the emotional impact of the picture, to work together with the picture. Without the picture, the music has nothing to support or enhance, and, in isolation, may seem less good than it actually is - like a single voice of a fugue.
> 
> Maybe, when you are promoting audio only, it would be a good idea to also promote some pieces that are meant to be heard without any supporting media.



Oh, I completely understand the need to match music with images (we're a very visual society after all!) I don't just promote this kind of music. I separate my concert music from music I'd like to license for film/games, etc. on two different websites. As for what I'm labeling "video game/film music", the truth is, I think of them as stand alone music that COULD be well-suited to film. If you listen to the tracks on my soundcloud, I don't really think they need to be attached to video to make sense. They're essentially completed orchestra works that might be suited as underscore music for various types of productions, as opposed to say "atmospheric" or other music that really doesn't do much on its own except to create a mood.

I have made many youtube videos using video/slideshows, but have never gone as far as to attach a copyrighted video (say a scene from a movie) and add my music over top. For one, I wouldn't know how to remove the original audio (assuming there's a combination of score, sound effects, and dialogue) and two, I don't want my account flagged for copyright violations. Wouldn't this also come across as a desperate tactic to get noticed, especially if the original score is highly regarded?

Thanks for the great suggestions and dialogue! I'm really digging your points of view 

Dave


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## yhomas (Apr 1, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> I put up a few of my orchestral works...still only 2 followers.



#1. I am a random layperson on the internet with a mild hobby interest in VI's and music, so don't take my input too seriously.

#2. I don't follow anyone on SoundCloud. The only artists I follow on FB are personal friends. So I am not in your target audience--see point #1.

#3. IMO, the question you should be asking is why should anyone rightly should follow your music. Based on a quick listen (while driving in my car), you have not made anything great:
- Song: Not particularly great
- Orchestration: Not particularly great
- Mockup/Musicians: Not particularly great
- Mixing/Mastering: Not particularly great
- Overall experience of listener: Meh

There so much great music out there with amazing songs by gifted composers, masterful orchestration, performed stunningly by some of the world's best musicians, recorded/mixed/mastered by top experts in their craft--available for free on SoundCloud and elsewhere. How can can you (or anyone) plausibly compete? 

IMO, thinking that you _should_ be getting followers is a mistake.


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## and- (Apr 2, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> As for what I'm labeling "video game/film music", the truth is, I think of them as stand alone music that COULD be well-suited to film.


Sorry, looks like I misunderstood your post. Then it makes sense to promote this music just as music, i.e. without any supporting media.


Dear Villain said:


> I have made many youtube videos using video/slideshows, but have never gone as far as to attach a copyrighted video (say a scene from a movie) and add my music over top. For one, I wouldn't know how to remove the original audio (assuming there's a combination of score, sound effects, and dialogue) and two, I don't want my account flagged for copyright violations.


Oh, no. I didn't suggest to use any copyrighted video without permission. My point was (before I realized that I misunderstood you) to use music, that requires supporting media, with some kind of supporting media. Exactly how or what media... I don't know. I gave you an example what worked for me, to my surprise actually.


Dear Villain said:


> I separate my concert music from music I'd like to license for film/games, etc. on two different websites.


I understand the advantages of doing this, but, I believe, there are also disadvantages: you have to run two sets of promotional activities instead of one. What about having both kinds of music on one website and then separating them within that website?


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## blougui (Apr 2, 2018)

I’m afraid yohmas has a very valid point - I’m in the same position as you are


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

yhomas said:


> #1. I am a random layperson on the internet with a mild hobby interest in VI's and music, so don't take my input too seriously.
> 
> #2. I don't follow anyone on SoundCloud. The only artists I follow on FB are personal friends. So I am not in your target audience--see point #1.
> 
> ...


Woah. Sorry, I've got a grump on today, but that's massively harsh and such a miserable thing to post. Unless I've missed the joke.

Quality is never a barometer of views/fans. (Just look at my profile!)
It breaks my heart when I stumble across random SC accounts full of beautiful music, perfectly orchestrated and written, scored for a film that never was. With 10 views.


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## mac (Apr 2, 2018)

You just probably haven't created that one spark yet that resonates with listeners. I have a soundcloud account that I used to use years ago for breakbeat and electronica, and I had a friend who created an account around the same time, making similar music.

One month, I uploaded a remix of a track and within no time, it had over 90,000 plays and I was getting dozens of followers per day. Now I thought my previous original tracks were far better, but it seems the listeners thought otherwise. Anyway, once I created that spark, all subsequent tracks at least got hundreds or thousands of plays. My friend who never had that 'breakthrough' track, remained on a handful of plays per track, even though some were awesome.

Bear in mind, this was years ago when a follower was someone who actually wanted to listen to your work. Nowadays it's all an automated load of bollocks full of bot accounts, and pay for follow services. Still my point remains - you need that one track that the masses will love.

Edit: Alternatively, create a buzz around yourself in some other way that organically leads people to follow you, similar to what Daniel James has done for himself with his videos.


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## StevenMcDonald (Apr 2, 2018)

I suspect that part of the reason traffic is low is because your music is highly classical. Most people, myself included, just don't care for "classical" music. Soundcloud, in my experience at least, has more users among the edgier and younger crowd. Throw some sick hip hop beats on one of those tracks and I bet it would get more attention.

I always had more success on youtube than soundcloud anyway. For me, soundcloud is more of a tool for making private playlists and sending them to publishers/other potential employers. Also hosting playlists on my website.


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## Dear Villain (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks for your suggestions, Mac. Very valid points to consider.

Steven, yup...highly classical is what I do, I'm afraid. I know it's not the most in vogue genre, but we write what we like, and maybe you're right that SoundCloud isn't a suitable platform for this. I'll look at Orfium and other similar sites.


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 2, 2018)

I don't want to be discouraging.
I like your music. But you can still get better, at least at production.
You'll find elementary-level 'music' produced really really well will get many followers. Which makes sense... we want to enjoy what we listen to. If your production isn't up to standard, then you'll be lucky if anybody can look (hear) past that.


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## Dear Villain (Apr 2, 2018)

Jdiggity1 said:


>



Jdiggity, I assume this is your way of suggesting that the individual who point blank criticized everything I am doing is right in his assessment and that my music sucks, and that I shouldn't have the confidence to disagree, but should rather roll over and play dead.


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 2, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Jdiggity, I assume this is your way of suggesting that the individual who point blank criticized everything I am doing is right in his assessment and that my music sucks, and that I shouldn't have the confidence to disagree, but should rather roll over and play dead.


I have edited my post to clarify.
But nobody said your music sucked. It's just not at the point yet where you can justify getting upset about people not falling in love with it.
Neither is my music, for the record. But i acknowledge that and am not asking people to give me pity likes.


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## StevenMcDonald (Apr 2, 2018)

The more flutes, glockenspiels, and harps in a piece of music, the better the production has to be for people to enjoy it online... Someone should make a chart/graph for that too.


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## BlackCoyote (Apr 2, 2018)

StevenMcDonald said:


> The more flutes, glockenspiels, and harps in a piece of music, the better the production has to be for people to enjoy it online... Someone should make a chart/graph for that too.


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## Dear Villain (Apr 2, 2018)

Jdiggity1 said:


> I have edited my post to clarify.
> But nobody said your music sucked. It's just not at the point yet where you can justify getting upset about people not falling in love with it.
> Neither is my music, for the record. But i acknowledge that and am not asking people to give me pity likes.



Appreciate the additional clarification, and of course, we all can improve. As far as production, I am not a music producer, but a musician and composer, and I totally agree that learning that end of things is a process. But the suggestion that my music has no redeeming qualities by that individual, with no constructive criticism as to how to improve it, and further suggesting that I'm wrong to even ask for followers, is rude, demoralizing, and downright mean spirited. 

Let's clarify: I'm not asking for pity likes. I'm trying to build an audience of people that will SINCERELY like my music. If they do, I encourage them to follow, if not, of course, they shouldn't. I think the only thing I'm guilty of is not realizing how my initial post may have been perceived as wanting "pity for my music". That is the furthest thing from my intention. Anyway, this whole thread has left me wishing I had never asked the initial question of how people get followers. I guess I opened myself up to the scorn and contempt (internet forum, after all) and will cease posting my music here going forward.

Thank you to those that genuinely shared your experiences and insights, and even to those of you that didn't hide your contempt for what I'm doing. It's all appreciated  

Cheers!
Dave


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## SyMTiK (Apr 2, 2018)

I sadly can't listen to your piece of music at the moment but I will when I get out of class later and give some proper feedback on the music itself.

But I will say that it takes a long time to truly make any traction posting this style of music online based on the music alone. The only style of music that has a bit of a cult following that gains some traction on its own is Trailer music because there are actually a decent amount of people who listen to it purely for enjoyment, especially kids who play video games and want an epic soundtrack to go with their playing. This style is VERY competitive however, and there is a high standard for production value within this music that must be met. I have been writing this music for about 4 years now, and have only had 2 of my tracks ever promoted by Premium Music HQ, a very popular youtube channel for Epic Trailer music. Even after having my music promoted by them before, I have had plenty more turned down because they just have a very high standard for the music they promote. You cant let it discourage you though, just try and think critically about maybe what may have turned them off from it, and what you could do next time to make your music better.

I think its incredibly important to be both proud of your craft but also very critical of how it honestly compares to the music within the market you are trying to break through.

Hope some of that made sense! I gotta go to class but I will listen in a few hours when I get out!


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## yhomas (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Quality is never a barometer of views/fans.



That is absolutely true. Look at the rubbish which is often the top of various pop charts, whereas there are who knows how many of the world's best artists who die completely unknown.

But such adds to my point. Even if one creates truly great music, there is still no guarantee of getting any followers. I would say that at least great music improves the odds, but Nicki Minaj offers a fairly strong argument in the other direction.


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## Xaviez (Apr 2, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Appreciate the additional clarification, and of course, we all can improve. As far as production, I am not a music producer, but a musician and composer, and I totally agree that learning that end of things is a process. But the suggestion that my music has no redeeming qualities by that individual, with no constructive criticism as to how to improve it, and further suggesting that I'm wrong to even ask for followers, is rude, demoralizing, and downright mean spirited.
> 
> Let's clarify: I'm not asking for pity likes. I'm trying to build an audience of people that will SINCERELY like my music. If they do, I encourage them to follow, if not, of course, they shouldn't. I think the only thing I'm guilty of is not realizing how my initial post may have been perceived as wanting "pity for my music". That is the furthest thing from my intention. Anyway, this whole thread has left me wishing I had never asked the initial question of how people get followers. I guess I opened myself up to the scorn and contempt (internet forum, after all) and will cease posting my music here going forward.
> 
> ...


There's the problem with forums, people will interpret things differently, I for one did not interpret it as you wanting pity likes but rather you where asking for advice on how to get a following, no harm in that imo.


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## Karma (Apr 2, 2018)

BlackCoyote said:


>


I'm offended by this statement


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## Dear Villain (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks again to all of you. I'm checking out of this thread, but please feel free to start a new thread elsewhere on the forum about any of the topics discussed here. I'd prefer if we just let this one go, because I've received the feedback I desired and really don't want to stir up any more discussion centred around my Soundcloud 

Ciao!
Dave


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## chillbot (Apr 2, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Thanks again to all of you. I'm checking out of this thread, but please feel free to start a new thread elsewhere on the forum about any of the topics discussed here. I'd prefer if we just let this one go, because I've received the feedback I desired and really don't want to stir up any more discussion centred around my Soundcloud



Now that's no way to get followers.


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## Robo Rivard (Apr 2, 2018)

This thread should be used as human shield...


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 2, 2018)

Or a crash test dummy...


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## Celestial Aeon (Apr 2, 2018)

I think Soundcloud is very much like Instagram, Twitter or Facebook - social media instead of music centered service. Usually to get likes or follows on social media you either need a high profile visibility before you start, humour/joke that goes viral, something that is somehow very special thing right now in time or something of exceptional quality. I personally have managed to get only meaningful plays via support - some high profile soundcloud account has liked / added the tune on their wall as well or something. I don't think there is much you can do yourself, it either happens due time organically or not. Statistically, I wouldn't hold my breath. Best way is just to keep creating and promoting yourself like you do on all channels and building your own "social brand".


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## Karma (Apr 2, 2018)

Mind games! Reverse psychology! I hadn't actually listened to your track until you said close the thread... now I have.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

Karma said:


> Mind games! Reverse psychology! I hadn't actually listened to your track until you said close the thread... now I have.


And you’ve made the thread title 400% more clickbait. There’s a marketing lesson in there somewhere.


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## artomatic (Apr 2, 2018)

And I'm now here because of the updated thread title.


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## Robo Rivard (Apr 2, 2018)

Dr Belasco said:


> Or a crash test dummy...


Or a punching bag of meat in a freezer...


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## Dear Villain (Apr 2, 2018)

Alright, I'll adjust the title again.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Alright, I'll adjust the title again.


Hehe, that’s no good. Still click bait! I’d go for something like “data transfer rates compared over secure Wi-fi networks.”


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## Dear Villain (Apr 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Hehe, that’s no good. Still click bait! I’d go for something like “data transfer rates compared over secure Wi-fi networks.”


Maybe I should take up fishing, since I'm really good stringing the bait line 

Seriously though, this is hilarious. It's helping me get through the tediousness of editing CC data for a large scale orchestral work...my workflow is, adjust some midi data...listen...correct...listen...correct...satisfied...visit VI forum to see the latest in intellectual discourse...roll eyes...post myself firmly biting my tongue...draw some blood from biting too firmly...wipe up blood...repeat.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 2, 2018)

You could change the title to something no one would ever click on, and this thread could become a sort of covert, secret discussion.


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## KEM (Apr 2, 2018)

"Deleted" hahaha


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## Dr Belasco (Apr 2, 2018)

I would call this thread - I Will Sell My Pancreas to the First Person that Asks


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Apr 2, 2018)

N cannot be deleted, sorry... fake news 

It will exist forever


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## jhughes (Apr 2, 2018)

My thoughts:

Why are you doing this? Truly understanding why you do this keeps you pushing forward when the followers/views/likes/whatever don't come in. As harsh as it is, truth is they may never come.
That's the way of the world. There are so many incredible musicians I know that are completely unknown outside of a small circle.

I have put up stuff that I worked who knows how many hours on, things that I thought were some of my best work, only for it to go unnoticed. In some cases, only for some punk that wouldn't know a G chord from a C to criticize my work. Meanwhile, I have put up stuff that was thrown together that people thought was some big deal. As hard as it is, try not to put much stock into all of that and just do what you love doing....always striving to get better.

Perspective:
How comfortable are you incessantly talking about yourself? I mean telling people how wonderful you are? Bragging about yourself? If you did this long enough and in enough places you would eventually gather yourself some more followers.
I see it all the time, people that have no skills gather droves of followers simply because they are convinced they are great and are comfortable telling everyone else how great they are as well. People eventually believe them.
It then becomes a chain reaction-the more followers you have the more people believe you must know what you are talking about and then voila, pretty soon thousands of followers and you are an expert, never mind you are producing some of the most mediocre garbage around.

I know it all seems silly, I didn't even listen to your music yet but I think the things you seek actually don't have much to do with the music in the first place. 
If was all about the music, then I know some musicians that ought to have people following them around like the Pied Piper....and they certainly don't


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## Dear Villain (Apr 2, 2018)

Jhughes, as much as I didn't want this thread to continue (yes, for real) you are rising above this "mob mentality" offering some very profound and heartfelt advice, for which I thank you. I think what it comes down to is this: I've always known that the music and performers I work with are not part of any mainstream interest group, and we've always done what we do for passion, for acknowledgement from our small but learned peer group, and to create our own legacy of excellence. Not for social media follows/popularity/money. It's clear to me that I was temporarily blinded by my own desire to somehow gain "popularity" as a means of proving I'm a good composer. And, wow did this thread help me re-focus on what I'm already doing. Getting live performances by accomplished ensembles and chamber musicians. The "film/game" stuff will remain for me a hobby and I will pursue my concert music as I have going forward.

Thanks again to everyone, including the chronic jokers. 

Dave


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## yhomas (Apr 2, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Wow, you are a first class jerk. Your assessment of my music is your prerogative, but let me assure you, I won't be taking your opinions to heart because (let me use your own quote) thinking you should be critiquing my music is a mistake.



I'm sorry to come across as a jerk. Don't let naysayers drag you down--especially ones such as myself who have zero demonstrated expertise and questionable taste. 

On the other hand, IMO there is often value in gathering insight from a diverse group which includes those who you don't generally agree with--even some who may be ignorant jerks. 

---
Let's review my previous critique list and assume we give numerical ratings:
- Song: 1-10
- Orchestration/Arrangement: 1-10
- Mockup/Musicianship: 1-10
- Record/mix/master: 1-10
- Overall experience: 1-10

Granted, the "song" quality is highly subjective, but let's assume that you are the next John Williams and are putting out truly astoundingly great compositions at level 9-10. 

Then, let's count the disadvantages you have to hit level 9-10 in other areas:
- JW isn't going to do his own orchestration, rather he collaborates with a gifted professional orchestrator/arranger. 
- Then, does JW make a midi mockup for SoundCloud? Not a chance. Instead, one of the world's top recording engineers using some of the world's best recording equipment, records one of the world's best orchestras (composed of top shelf musicians) playing the music in one of the worlds best studios. 
- Then, does JW mix/master the result? Not a chance. They have one of the world's best professional mixers do the mix, and they hire someone else--one of the world's best mastering engineers--to do final mastering.
- Finally, regarding the "overall experience", JW has Star Wars playing in the foreground. 

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No doubt, I am short changing the process, but the point is that after the initial composition is made, there are well paid teams of top artists/experts all working together to improve the output quality to make it the best it can be. So my basic point here is that given the musical genre being roughly along the lines of JW orchestral music, given a typical VI-control composer's resources, one would naturally be at an _enormous_ disadvantage on so many levels. 

Even assuming a very high level of talent, skill, dedication, and equipment, it isn't a reasonable expectation for one individual to be able to be genuinely competitive on an apples to apples basis in this field.

Even after all the massive production effort, John William's music output still isn't "great" (whatever that means) enough to stand on its own with a typical audience--99.999% of the time anyone listens to JW, they are watching a movie as the foreground of the experience. 

So how can a media composer expect to compete against this? It's just not a realistic proposition in general. 

---
So, IMO, neglecting my personal taste and impression of the work in question, IMO, my general point, that any individual composer shouldn't reasonably _expect_ followers, still has merit--especially (as someone else mentioned) in this particular genre.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 2, 2018)

Is the song still there to listen to? I would like to give it a try, any link? I often listen to pieces members posting here to give some constructive feedback..


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## FriFlo (Apr 2, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Is the song still there to listen to? I would like to give it a try, any link? I often listen to pieces members posting here to give some constructive feedback..


https://soundcloud.com/dearvillain


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 2, 2018)

FriFlo said:


> https://soundcloud.com/dearvillain



Which piece or pieces were that?


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## FriFlo (Apr 2, 2018)

I do not understand why you want to delete this. It is an interesting question how and why people like and follow on Soundcloud. I would say, most people are just film music composers following each other!  Doesn't help much with getting jobs. That goes for most (traditional) orchestral writing, unless you do something like "epic" or "hybrid", stuff that is really popular or you do interact (Facebook, youtube, product reviews, etc) with a fanbase as others pointed out already. Then, there are also a small group of people that are very popular. But nobody gets even close to what pop music can accomplish. That is just something you will have to live with, if you are in the film music or classical music thing ...


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## FriFlo (Apr 2, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Which piece or pieces were that?


Don't know ... I just looked the name up on Soundcloud. 
There are only 4 pieces, so you can listen to all and make your mind up according to those.


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## and- (Apr 2, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Which piece or pieces were that?


I believe it was the "Soaring". Although, I'm not 100% sure.


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## blougui (Apr 2, 2018)

mac said:


> Edit: Alternatively, create a buzz around yourself in some other way that organically leads people to follow you, similar to what Daniel James has done for himself with his videos.



You have to have this personnality, character, charisma in yourself already. DJ is naricissic enough to be able to talk to his screen for hours on end and think that some people will watch him - and they!do and sometimes I do too to be honnest. But DJ really brings something to the table musically speaking.
It’s not the other way round.
It’s because his music and production chops, even when they were « in the making » or in their infancy that enticed viewers to follow him. « I want to be able to do what he ´s achieving.


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## Kyle Preston (Apr 2, 2018)

blougui said:


> DJ is naricissic enough to be able to talk to his screen for hours on end and think that some people will watch him - and they!do



It's a bit presumptuous to assume that people do this because they're narcissistic. I don't always agree with him - and I don't know DJ personally, but he seems like he comes from a good place most of the time. Believe it or not, some of us share things online because we actually care about the well-being of music and our fellow composers/artists. Sharing that process doesn't make someone a narcissist.


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## Karma (Apr 2, 2018)

Blimey... it's seeping into every thread now


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## blougui (Apr 2, 2018)

ah ha, yes it does Karma !!!
Well, one have to be kind of narcissist anyway to come up front in the showbusiness.
I really like the public personna DJ - the DJ brand, as he would say. Man, he's not a discret -stay-in-the-shadow type of VI musician. I've got no problem with that, not at all. 
I just wanted to focus on the fact that to do it as he does it requires more than just the vague will to do it.There's no 2 Daniel James, like there's no 2 Cuckoos or better still, 2 Andrew Huang.


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