# To sub or not to sub...



## TheKRock (May 16, 2018)

I just upgraded my monitors from a pair of KRK 8's to some Focal Shape 50's (MASSIVE improvement!!). I'm loving the sound of these monitors and am toying with the idea of getting a subwoofer to accompany them. My questions is do any of you mix/write with a sub and if so what are you using? I'm not 100% sold on getting one yet so am very much looking forward to your thoughts. Anything pro or con is appreciated.
Thanks 
K


----------



## chimuelo (May 17, 2018)

Youre 2 x satellite speakers won’t get bogged down covering sub frequencies.
Plus ContraBass, Cellos, French Horns would love dumping off 200MHz to a Seperate cabinet.


----------



## Tfis (May 17, 2018)

Neumann KH805, works great but my room is treated (which i think, in many cases, this is a must).


----------



## jononotbono (May 17, 2018)

I'm definitely getting a sub next. I use a pair of Adam A7X monitors so I was looking at the Adam Sub8 to accompany them.


----------



## kavinsky (May 17, 2018)

wouldnt recommend it unless you know exactly what you're doing.
its extremely hard to properly setup a sub
if you have a measurement mic - you can try it, but be aware of phase cancellation, SBIR and all other sorts of weird stuff.
a treated room is a must in this case (foam panels/traps won't do anything to help with a lowend response)


----------



## JohnG (May 17, 2018)

100% everyone working in media needs a sub, even if it's not that great. Mine is not at all great but it provides indispensable information.

Why?

Because if you don't have a sub it's easy to fall into one of two errors:

1. You don't realise the "super cool Nordic pulse bass" that's on your latest Awesome Track is blowing the windows out at low frequencies, or...

2. ...the opposite. Your track is all mid, mid/low, and highs, and you need a little push at the low end.

Without a sub, it's possible, no matter what the specs on one's speakers and amp, to miss a lot of the party.


[check elsewhere on v.i. control or Youtube for suggestions on setting up a sub. It's not that hard but there is a process]


----------



## chimuelo (May 17, 2018)

Well I’m not really scientific but use 2.1 live on gigs where there’s no FOH Engineer.
2 x RCF TT08s with a 12” Dba Sub.
I just adjust everything by ear.
Those damn discrete Audio analog synths bury my sampled content so bad I have to use a sub.
My 2.1 Blue Sky’s are old but my recordings are so much better played back stereo after mix/master in 2.1.


----------



## yhomas (May 17, 2018)

Sub no question. I can recommend a Rhythmic sealed sub. Doesn’t even sound like a sub is there—just seems like the speakers go all the way down.


----------



## whinecellar (May 17, 2018)

What @JohnG said. I don't get how media composers DON'T work with sub(s), assuming a properly treated acoustic environment. Yes, they take some dialing in otherwise they can create additional problems. But without them, you're missing a crucial part of the spectrum that's very much present in almost all our intended targets: theaters (commercial and home), cars, etc.

I've always thought my most important tools (after my instruments themselves) are my chair, my room, and my monitor system. It's worth investing in.

Personally, I've used an NHT B20 stereo sub rig for over a decade that Carl Tatz used to push, and for good reason... it's a stunningly good system and it wasn't too expensive. It also bucks the notion that "you only need 1 sub because low end is omnidirectional." Extreme lows behave that way, but you can most definitely hear a massive difference between a mono sub and a stereo pair, especially if crossed over at a higher frequency. It's also (generally) easier to counteract severe peaks/nulls with a pair of well-placed subs rather than a single mono one.

And finally, yes, using subs lets your main monitors work that much more efficiently when they don't have to deal with all the low end. I'm currently using a pair of ADAM S3H which are absolute monsters and quite capable of sufficient low end - I'd put them in a mastering suite without hesitation. But as good as they are, they are a whole different ballgame when the subs are doing the heavy lifting on the bottom end.

So yes... get a pair!


----------



## chillbot (May 17, 2018)

_To sub, or not to sub: that is the question:
Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The lows and highs of outrageous frequencies,
Or to take arms against a sea of midranges._

Sub it.


----------



## TheKRock (May 17, 2018)

Thank you everyone who chimed in on this! I'm definitely sold on a sub(s) now my only issue is room treatment...having just moved into a new place my studio is all glass and concrete and angles so need to work this out. You guys rock!


----------



## TheKRock (May 17, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> What @JohnG said. I don't get how media composers DON'T work with sub(s), assuming a properly treated acoustic environment. Yes, they take some dialing in otherwise they can create additional problems. But without them, you're missing a crucial part of the spectrum that's very much present in almost all our intended targets: theaters (commercial and home), cars, etc.
> 
> I've always thought my most important tools (after my instruments themselves) are my chair, my room, and my monitor system. It's worth investing in.
> 
> ...


Jim concerning twin subs have you any recommendations to pair with my focal 50's in my small studio? Should I gravitate towards smaller 7"-8" subs?


----------



## whinecellar (May 17, 2018)

TheKRock said:


> Jim concerning twin subs have you any recommendations to pair with my focal 50's in my small studio? Should I gravitate towards smaller 7"-8" subs?



Man, it's so tough to know without actually trying them in your space. What are your room dimensions? It will be a challenge in a small room of course, but back in the day I was in a small room with my NHTs (10' x 12' if I remember), and they worked great.

A pair of ADAM's 8" subs might be just the ticket. Whatever you get, you'll want to do a lot of experimenting with moving them around. Corners will complicate things 

Good luck!


----------



## TheKRock (May 17, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> Man, it's so tough to know without actually trying them in your space. What are your room dimensions? It will be a challenge in a small room of course, but back in the day I was in a small room with my NHTs (10' x 12' if I remember), and they worked great.
> 
> A pair of ADAM's 8" subs might be just the ticket. Whatever you get, you'll want to do a lot of experimenting with moving them around. Corners will complicate things
> 
> Good luck!


Ya of course I appreciate your help on this! I was looking at the Adam 8 already so maybe that's the way to go! Thanks again!
K


----------



## jonathanprice (May 17, 2018)

I only use my sub if I've got a low frequency effect, and never use it for bass management. You risk the dub mixer pulling down the LFE stem completely (which happens) and losing your low end.


----------



## JohnG (May 17, 2018)

jonathanprice said:


> I only use my sub if I've got a low frequency effect, and never use it for bass management. You risk the dub mixer pulling down the LFE stem completely (which happens) and losing your low end.



That's a fair point if we were talking about using it for the ".1" in a 5.1 mix. I don't actually do that; I'm just talking about monitoring in stereo while composing. For that, I use the sub to make sure I don't have anything going insane "down there." Or not enough, as the case may be.

If I'm mixing myself, I never print anything in the LFE. I guess maybe my engineer does that but I've never asked him(!) Or the guys who mix the trailer stuff?


----------



## Studio E (May 17, 2018)

So yeah, treatment is a total must, but I would hate not having mine. I bought the Focal Twins and eventually upgraded my Sub to the Focal Sub6. I really love it. It actually only adds about a half octave but still, it off-loads the stress on my mains and I love knowing what's down there and purposefully using that super low place in the mix. I couldn't have done that without it.


----------



## jmauz (May 17, 2018)

Sub. My nearfields are Focal CMS65's paired with the CMS sub and the combo works wonderfully.


----------



## Leon Portelance (May 17, 2018)

I use Yamaha HS5s and have a Yamaha HS8S sub.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau (May 22, 2018)

Treated room : sub welcome !

Untreated room : warning, you could cause more problems than you solve.

There are also other interesting bass monitoring solutions, like the SubPac.


----------



## germancomponist (May 22, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> ... And finally, yes, using subs lets your main monitors work that much more efficiently when they don't have to deal with all the low end. ...


Oh let us get 4 ears, so we can hear much more relaxed and accurate. 

A treated room is the most important!
I do not like to use subs, and do not use it while composing and mixing, but in the last step (mastering) it is good for controlling, like you, John and others said.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (May 23, 2018)

whitewasteland said:


> Treated room : sub welcome !
> 
> Untreated room : warning, you could cause more problems than you solve.



That's why I don't use a sub, it opens up a whole new can of worms if you don't really understand what you're doing.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (May 23, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> That's why I don't use a sub, it opens up a whole new can of worms if you don't really understand what you're doing.


But at the same time, the positioning of your speakers is pretty limited while you can generally move the sub around the room a lot more to find a good position. Having said that, I wouldn't have a mono sub going any higher than 40Hz so most smaller speakers need 2 subs.


----------



## aaronventure (May 23, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> I'm definitely getting a sub next. I use a pair of Adam A7X monitors so I was looking at the Adam Sub8 to accompany them.



I've had the chance to test a pair of A7X speakers with all the Adam subs (up to 12), and I would really advise at least getting the Sub10 Mk2. _Much_ more cleaner sound. 

If you can stretch it even more and want a stereo sub for-life, get Sub12. 

But seriously, I wouldn't advise going below Sub10. It will take some positioning and level-fiddling depending on your room, but you'll definitely have to set it below 0. It will make your stereo image rock solid and add great definition and detail to your lower end.


----------



## jononotbono (May 23, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> I've had the chance to test a pair of A7X speakers with all the Adam subs (up to 12), and I would really advise at least getting the Sub10 Mk2. _Much_ more cleaner sound.
> 
> If you can stretch it even more and want a stereo sub for-life, get Sub12.
> 
> But seriously, I wouldn't advise going below Sub10. It will take some positioning and level-fiddling depending on your room, but you'll definitely have to set it below 0. It will make your stereo image rock solid and add great definition and detail to your lower end.



Well, I was only thinking an 8 because Adam suggest they have been designed to work with the A7X. I would also be a little bit concerned about the sheer power of a Sub 10 / 12 but hey, what the hell, it can always be turned down right!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2018)

Treated rooms can kiss my ass.



Whether you need a sub depends on your speakers. Most 6" or 8" speakers don't have anything useful below... well, I'm tempted to say 80Hz, but definitely below 60.

My Blue Sky System one is a 2.1 package - two 6.5 sats and a 12" sub. It's not adding a sub, it's integral.

Avril Lavigne's "Skater Boi" is a great test for whether you're hearing the sub freqs. It has four 8th note rumblings at phrase beginnings in the verse, and if you don't hear them then you need a sub. I forget what freq they are, but they're low.


----------



## aaronventure (May 23, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Well, I was only thinking an 8 because Adam suggest they have been designed to work with the A7X. I would also be a little bit concerned about the sheer power of a Sub 10 / 12 but hey, what the hell, it can always be turned down right!



Better to have more power with a better response and play it at 50%. It's a bit more expensive, but it's also future proof if you move into a bigger room and get bigger monitors. Sub8 will under-perform for anything bigger than A7X.

I've heard all three subs and Sub8 definitely isn't worth the €600 in my opinion, while Sub10Mk2 is very much worth the €900.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Avril Lavigne's "Skater Boi" is a great test for whether you're hearing the sub freqs. It has four 8th note rumblings at phrase beginnings in the verse, and if you don't hear them then you need a sub. I forget what freq they are, but they're low.



Also "Hey Now". Guys from Funktion-One would calibrate their live setups with, among others, this tune. Hearing that bassline on a wall of F221 Horn-loaded basses is pure sex.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> Horn-loaded basses is pure sex



^ That's super-freaky.


----------

