# VSL Synchron Steinway D is coming...



## al_net77 (Dec 6, 2018)

_December 6th, 2018_
Synchron Pianos 1.1.1103
• Added: *Support for Steinway D*
• Improved: Performance when releasing sustain pedal
• Improved: Rare crashes when closing sessions


Yes...


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## [email protected] (Dec 6, 2018)

Happy to confirm we just released the *Steinway & Sons D-274*.
Over 4,000 samples per key for maximum authenticity, and that's just one of the many key features!
Happy Holidays from Vienna!


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## Batrawi (Dec 6, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Over 4,000 samples per key


Whaddaf#@$ ! That would require a hard space costing more than a real Steinway..!


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## Cartoon (Dec 6, 2018)

Batrawi said:


> Whaddaf#@$ ! That would require a hard space costing more than a real Steinway..!



Free hard drive space *Standard Library: 117.9 GB* (individual microphone data can be removed) so it can be less I guess


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## Gerbil (Dec 6, 2018)

Interested. I'd really like to hear some softer una corda demos first though.


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## Salorom (Dec 6, 2018)

Stunning. Check (and compare) the demos that were also made with the CFX, the sound is gorgeous.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2018)

I don't want to sound bias, but I give it a 2 big thumbs up.


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## Olfirf (Dec 6, 2018)

Wow! A good VSL-comeback, I would say! 
@Guy: Did you play in the 2 pieces by Nicholas Decrescent from the demos? I found nothing but death metal by googling that name!  I was going to look for CDs and maybe sheet music ...


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2018)

Olfirf said:


> Wow! A good VSL-comeback, I would say!
> @Guy: Did you play in the 2 pieces by Nicholas Decrescent from the demos?



No, but I wish I did, great playing.


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## Olfirf (Dec 6, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> No, but I wish I did, great playing.


Indeed! Anyone from VSL? Paul? Could you enlighten us who that guy is? Reminds me of Dave Grusin a little bit.


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## Olfirf (Dec 6, 2018)

But the Ritual fire dance must have been your playing. I love that transcription. Great playing there, too! I just whish, you could have done the first part as well. These long trills are always a challenge for a sampled piano and I would have loved to see how the new VSL Steinway would have coped with them.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2018)

Olfirf said:


> But the Ritual fire dance must have been your playing. I love that transcription. Great playing there, too! I just whish, you could have done the first part as well. These long trills are always a challenge for a sampled piano and I would have loved to see how the new VSL Steinway would have coped with them.



I imagine someone from VSL will eventually chime in about the mysterious artist, I have no idea. Yes, the Ritual Fire Dance is me, the live videos are me, sorry about the carpet...


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## CGR (Dec 6, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> I imagine someone from VSL will eventually chime in about the mysterious artist, I have no idea. Yes, the Ritual Fire Dance is me, the live videos are me, sorry about the carpet...


Really enjoyed hearing & seeing your live playing video demos Guy. Looks like the touch response to dynamics & repetitions is highly expressive and realistic. What controller did you use? BTW . . . I forgive you for the carpet


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 6, 2018)

Demos of the new D sound really good. A nice contrast to the CFX (which I also really like and use a LOT).


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## Mason (Dec 6, 2018)

Olfirf said:


> Indeed! Anyone from VSL? Paul? Could you enlighten us who that guy is? Reminds me of Dave Grusin a little bit.



Probably a pseudonym.


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2018)

Steinway sounds great. Quite a bit different than the CFX, very tempting!


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## CGR (Dec 6, 2018)

Interesting video here, showing classical pianist Stefan Mendl's first experience playing it (4th video - LIVE: Stefan Mendl First Contact with a sampled Steinway):

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Steinway_D#!Videos

Check out that surround sound speaker system though!
Watch his reaction after the passage he plays starting @ 5:25


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## slobajudge (Dec 6, 2018)

CGR said:


> Interesting video here, showing classical pianist Stefan Mendl's first experience playing it (4th video - LIVE: Stefan Mendl First Contact with a sampled Steinway):
> 
> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Steinway_D#!Videos
> 
> ...


Yes, his reaction to this orchestra reverb sound is obviously fantastic, but what worries me is his almost cold reaction when he was playing slow piece from the start where I expect to hear some close resonance and less reverb but no. Eh, time will tell.


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## CGR (Dec 6, 2018)

slobajudge said:


> Yes, his reaction to this orchestra reverb sound is obviously fantastic, but what worries me is his almost cold reaction when he was playing slow piece from the start where I expect to hear some close resonance and less reverb but no. Eh, time will tell.


I thought the same, but given he has very little experience with sampled pianos, that disconnect when the sound is coming from speakers around you (and not feeling the sound vibrations in your fingers & body) can be confusing, and off putting. It's often such a different experience being a player compared to being a listener of your own performances. Quite often I'll play & record with a virtual piano and feel like it's not working, then listen back later and be pleasantly surprised.

As a recorded sound, those first passages he played sounded fantastic to me on my studio monitors. For me, it would be difficult to pick it as not a real acoustic piano performance.


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## CGR (Dec 6, 2018)

To be fair to VSL, I appreciate them releasing video of what appears to be Stefan's honest reactions, unlike so many over-hyped marketing/promo/teaser videos I've watched of average to poor quality virtual instruments from other developers.


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## slobajudge (Dec 6, 2018)

CGR said:


> Quite often I'll play & record with a virtual piano and feel like it's not working, then listen back later and be pleasantly surprised.


Can I get that both  ? That piano really sounds real from distance. I just want to sounds real close also but from the demos I can`t bring some valid conclusions. Too much reverb and distance sound. I hope I will change my mind once I get it.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2018)

slobajudge said:


> Can I get that both  ? That piano really sounds real from distance. I just want to sounds real close also but from the demos I can`t bring some valid conclusions. Too much reverb and distance sound. I hope I will change my mind once I get it.



No worries, there will be more demos, and some drier.


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## slobajudge (Dec 6, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> No worries, there will be more demos, and some drier.


Happy to hear. BTW, fantastic playing Guy


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## Francis Bourre (Dec 7, 2018)

CGR said:


> To be fair to VSL, I appreciate them releasing video of what appears to be Stefan's honest reactions, unlike so many over-hyped marketing/promo/teaser videos I've watched of average to poor quality virtual instruments from other developers.



I really appreciate this part as well.
Getting drier demos would be a direct buy for me. Not a surprise for a piano junkie!


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## jamwerks (Dec 7, 2018)

I have the Synchron CFX, and happily any combo of in-your-face - to ambient is possible. That's part of the treasure with these Synchron pianos!

I agree that those demos were overly ambient to my ears.


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## Gerbil (Dec 7, 2018)

The question is whether it's captured the richness and warmth of the Steinway and the jury's still out on that one for me. It definitely has power and guts, no doubts, and I know it'll be playable as I have the CFX and that's excellent for performing on. 

I'm just hoping to hear some more intimate music with it, preferably dry so that I can process it using some external verbs. I don't mind the synchron stage but some of the mixes are too distant (and a bit large bathroom-ish).


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## MrCambiata (Dec 7, 2018)

I must say, as someone who is going to perform Mephisto Waltz in two weeks, these demos of the piece sound very real to me. I think I would be fooled to believe it's not a virtual instrument... But as others have said, it would be easier to tell with less ambient, hearing the resonance of the piano itself.


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## newman (Dec 7, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> I don't mind the synchron stage but some of the mixes are too distant (and a bit large bathroom-ish).





slobajudge said:


> That piano really sounds real from distance. I just want to sounds real close also but from the demos I can`t bring some valid conclusions. Too much reverb and distance sound.



This graphic shows the room mics are a good distance from the piano. If the room sounds too ambient for your tastes, the full library adds three more mic positions within close proximity of the piano (ribbon, tube, mid). 

It would be interesting to hear a few demos with a selection of only the close and mid microphones.


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## Gerbil (Dec 7, 2018)

I admire the versatility here but it would have to be truly exceptional (ie, far beyond what is currently available) for me to splash 500 doubloons on the full version. As it stands on listening to the current demos, the Embertone Walker sounds better. They captured more of that Rubinstein warmth. But I do really enjoy playing VSL's CFX even if I prefer others for final recordings so am genuinely interested to hear what this Steinway can do and have a bit of cash set aside for the basic version.

I do wish they'd follow Embertone's example and release the different mics separately. It's unlikely I'm going to use them all so way pay the extra expense? This goes for a number of developers actually. Having to find yet more disk space to accomodate these monsters is a bit irritating.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 7, 2018)

After listening closely to all the demos, I think VSL has another world class piano product here. I'm probably going to pick it up.

I do think, though, that all developers are up against the wall of what sampling technology can do when it comes to pianos. There's a bunch of stuff happening in a real piano that traditional sampling methods just can't capture. They really can't get that magical interaction of multiple strings on a soundboard (a soundboard resonance IR doesn't really do it). They also can't get that beautiful blur you get when you re-strike an already ringing string and add more energy to it. Individual pedal-down samples are nice, but they won't give you that. Lots and lots and lots of stuff happening in a piano, and a sample library can only hope to give you a part of it. And, these are the types of things you really hear better on a dry and up-close recording (hence, the attractiveness of adding distance and reverb to a mix). For me, the closer the mix, the more I can clearly hear that each note was recorded as a separate event, and not played together. More distance makes things more convincing, as well as thicker textures with additional instruments. In some contexts, you can't tell the difference. But in others, you really can.

I would definitely not say that having a convincing instrument (that sounds completely real, playing anything close up) will never happen, but it's going to take some kind of ridiculously sophisticated model to really get the job done. We're not there, yet, and I don't see it on the horizon.

Interestingly, over time, the market (listeners and players) might grow used to the qualities sampled pianos have and prefer them to the real thing (at least, in some situations). Not unlike the Hammond organ. When the Hammond organ came out, the Hammond company really wanted it to totally fool the audience into thinking it was a real pipe organ, and at blind tests, a lot of people did think it was. Nowadays, we discern recorded sounds more closely, and no informed person is going to be fooled by a Hammond. But the Hammond sound isn't going away.

I kind of feel sorry for developers who have lived with these instruments for huge amounts of time as they're assembled. They're obviously truly focused on the instruments, and have fretted about the sound, flaws and total effect of the VI. I'm sure they KNOW that as soon as they release the product and post the demos, people are going to immediately say: "We want to hear it totally DRY and CLOSE-UP!!!" This request is certainly not a surprise to them. But, it's like asking a big movie star to leave their house without makeup, styled hair and nice clothes. The paparazzi are always waiting in the bushes with telephoto lenses.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 7, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> I'm just hoping to hear some more intimate music with it, preferably dry so that I can process it using some external verbs. I don't mind the synchron stage but some of the mixes are too distant (and a bit large bathroom-ish).



Interesting way to describe the Synchron Stage sound.  But, I think I'm sort of drawing a similar conclusion, myself, now owning most of the libraries recorded there. It's a certain kind of sound. Pretty bright, and a bit harsh. Not warm and full, IMO. I'm sure this hits everyone differently. There are probably people who absolutely love it. But there's a reason why when you buy, for instance, Altiverb, it comes with a TON of different room sounds. Being locked into one sound is a drag (unless it's absolutely, positively the sound you like better than all others). 

I know when I use my Synchron CFX library, I almost always use the close sound, and add the reverb I want, afterwords. I must say that some of the presets for the CFX are so distant sounding, they have a piano sound you'd hear at an actual live concert when you didn't pay enough to get a good seat.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 7, 2018)

If I can add this, it's not just liking what you hear, it's also enjoying using the instrument, expressing yourself on it and having fun with it, and personally, I can say it passes that test. Of course the acoustics is 100% adjustable, so I'm not concern with that.


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## Gerbil (Dec 7, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> If I can add this, it's not just liking what you hear, it's also enjoying using the instrument, expressing yourself on it and having fun with it, and personally, I can say it passes that test. Of course the acoustics is 100% adjustable, so I'm not concern with that.



That very much comes across in your performances, Guy, and it's your video that sells it to me so far. Just need a bit of close mic persuasion to push me over the edge


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 7, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> If I can add this, it's not just liking what you hear, it's also enjoying using the instrument, expressing yourself on it and having fun with it, and personally, I can say it passes that test. Of course the acoustics is 100% adjustable, so I'm not concern with that.



Well, if the new D is like the CFX, I expect it'll get high marks in that department. The Synchron CFX feels GREAT to play (especially on a nice controller, like the Kawai VPC1). The quality of assembly, predictability, consistency of the library is top notch. No clunkers. Nothing sticks out, and it really feels like you're playing it.

Acoustic are certainly adjustable, but I wouldn't say "100%" adjustable. There's going to be a lot baked in in any library. Plus, the basic way the instrument is set up and voiced by the technician is going to have a big impact. The Embertone Walker Steinway, for instance, really sounds like a totally different instrument to me. It has a much softer, warmer sound.

It's actually interesting to look at the VSL presets for the CFX. The more intimate ones really have an awful lot of high-end rolled off. I like having both warm, and bright piano sounds. But rolling off a lot of high end doesn't quite turn a really bright piano into a warm one (that's why we have a bazillion piano sample libraries these days). I'm guessing the technician at VSL must like things on the brighter side (or, whoever is curating the pianos at VSL is instructing them to head in that direction). I personally have a Yamaha CFIII concert grand in my studio, and I ask my technician to needle the hammer felt when it gets too bright.


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## Mason (Dec 7, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> If I can add this, it's not just liking what you hear, it's also enjoying using the instrument, expressing yourself on it and having fun with it, and personally, I can say it passes that test. Of course the acoustics is 100% adjustable, so I'm not concern with that.



Guy, do you mind sharing your mix presets (mic settings etc) on your latest demos? It would be helpful for considering if I need the Full Version at this poin. A screenshot or something would be awesome


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## Cartoon (Dec 7, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> I admire the versatility here but it would have to be truly exceptional (ie, far beyond what is currently available) for me to splash 500 doubloons on the full version. As it stands on listening to the current demos, the Embertone Walker sounds better. They captured more of that Rubinstein warmth. But I do really enjoy playing VSL's CFX even if I prefer others for final recordings so am genuinely interested to hear what this Steinway can do and have a bit of cash set aside for the basic version.
> 
> I do wish they'd follow Embertone's example and release the different mics separately. It's unlikely I'm going to use them all so way pay the extra expense? This goes for a number of developers actually. Having to find yet more disk space to accomodate these monsters is a bit irritating.



I mean to find some space for the real piano would be much harder I guess


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## JBacal (Dec 7, 2018)

Guy, you are a beast!


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 7, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Acoustic are certainly adjustable, but I wouldn't say "100%" adjustable. There's going to be a lot baked in in any library. Plus, the basic way the instrument is set up and voiced by the technician is going to have a big impact.



True, I was more thinking within the Synchron Player, each mix setting or mic fader makes quite a big difference.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 7, 2018)

Mason said:


> Guy, do you mind sharing your mix presets (mic settings etc) on your latest demos? It would be helpful for considering if I need the Full Version at this poin. A screenshot or something would be awesome



For the Falla, I used in the factory setting: 01 Decca Tree Multi-Mic Presets/Steinway-Concert_DeccaTree, but reduced a bit the Main fader to what you see. There is a lot to explore in that area, I've only started. For the other ones, it might be VSL who chose the mix, so I'm not sure, but if you really want to know, Paul can fill you in on the VSL forum on the Steinway thread.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 7, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> The question is whether it's captured the richness and warmth of the Steinway and the jury's still out on that one for me.



This is a Hamburg Steinway. I don't think it is one of those rich and warm sounding Steinways. I just forwarded the link to this to a friend of mine who does a lot of touring, and is a Steinway artist (having Steinways brought in for various performances). His take is that the Hamburg Steinways have harder hammers (and he feels that even the newer New York Steinways are going in that direction). Not a lot of low end. Listening to the demos, his thought was that the new VSL D was the type of piano you'd get for a performance if you asked the rental agency for a "concerto piano." Bright and powerful, capable of being heard easily over a large orchestra. He mentioned that if you want the other kind, you ask for a "Debussy piano" or a "Chamber music/Mozart" Steinway. It seems to me, the new VSL D is an excellent representation of a "concerto piano." The Embertone Walker would be more of a Debussy/Mozart/Chamber Steinway. 

All excellent pianos, but they sound different, and would be selected for different purposes. 

Here in the states, I think a lot of us often run into the more vintage New York Steinway D pianos that have a much darker tone (and often take a LOT more effort to play). There are a lot of them out there.


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## CGR (Dec 7, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> This is a Hamburg Steinway. I don't think it is one of those rich and warm sounding Steinways. I just forwarded the link to this to a friend of mine who does a lot of touring, and is a Steinway artist (having Steinways brought in for various performances). His take is that the Hamburg Steinways have harder hammers (and he feels that even the newer New York Steinways are going in that direction). Not a lot of low end. Listening to the demos, his thought was that the new VSL D was the type of piano you'd get for a performance if you asked the rental agency for a "concerto piano." Bright and powerful, capable of being heard easily over a large orchestra. He mentioned that if you want the other kind, you ask for a "Debussy piano" or a "Chamber music/Mozart" Steinway. It seems to me, the new VSL D is an excellent representation of a "concerto piano." The Embertone Walker would be more of a Debussy/Mozart/Chamber Steinway.
> 
> All excellent pianos, but they sound different, and would be selected for different purposes.
> 
> Here in the states, I think a lot of us often run into the more vintage New York Steinway D pianos that have a much darker tone (and often take a LOT more effort to play). There are a lot of them out there.



This is similar to my experience with Steinway grands. During my time working at the Australian agents for Steinway & Sons, we at most times had 2 or 3 new Hamburg Steinway Ds on the showroom floor, along with traded model Ds from the late 70's/early 80's which had come from the ABC studios. Had an interesting comparison between a brand new New York Steinway model B (special edition with 2 tone black & red case called 'Red Pops') and the 2 new Hamburg Steinway Bs we had in stock.

The NY model was a battle to play and had a 'thicker/heavier' tone compared to the factory regulated Hamburg Bs, (which were stunning straight out of the crate). Our Steinway tech said the NY model would need substantial regulation & voicing to achieve its potential. Also the Hamburgs had a Renner action, whereas the New York B had an American made action, which was noticeably heavier to play.

Fit and finish of the Hamburg Bs was also of a higher standard. This and the points I mentioned above contributed to quite a difference in price, with the Hamburg Bs being more expensive (around $40k+ more from memory).


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## star.keys (Dec 7, 2018)

Wow.. Can't wait to hear some user demos


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## al_net77 (Dec 8, 2018)

My 2c...

Tried it a bit. I like. More than CFX, but it is a matter of taste.
Sound seems thinner, but using the tube M149 as close mic you can add the missing warmth.
Note that the CFX does not have the "Close 3" tube mic, so setup is slightly different. In CFX I love the ribbon, in D i like it less.
Dynamics are different, so Midi files created with CFX need a little work, specially with lower velocities.
In live play I prefer the Steinway.


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## jamwerks (Dec 8, 2018)

The ambient samples are a good example using the piano as part of the orchestra, like maybe John Williams does doubling the WW's (for example). Would be nice to hear some such examples with some real Synchron Woodwinds!


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## good (Dec 8, 2018)

al_net77 said:


> Sound seems thinner, but using the tube M149 as close mic you can add the missing warmth.
> Note that the CFX does not have the "Close 3" tube mic, so setup is slightly different. In CFX I love the ribbon, in D i like it less.



I'm going to purchase Standard version because of its high price. But I don't know if Standard is enough for me. I'm curious about the new Close 3 Neumann mic.


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## OleJoergensen (Dec 8, 2018)

It sounds really good! Maybe a little bit dark and moddy. I believe it can be adjusted with the many mics.
I enjoyed a lot the video with the fine and sympathetic pianist Stefan Mendl!
I would be interested to see a video with his choise of mics mix 
Anyway, looking forward to more videos, hopefully with more transparent and slow music.


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## stigc56 (Dec 8, 2018)

Once visited Steinway in Hamburg to select a grand model A. I had the full tour - 2 hours - and I must say the craftmans ship is second to none. I was told that during the build of a Yamaha it was only “in the hands” of a human for 9 hours, and for a Steinway it is 280 hours. So the Y. grand holds the standard in all aspects, where the S. tends to be very different. I experienced this during my test play of 3 O’s 4 A’ and 6 B grands. I have some friends along this wonderful day, and we were unanimous selecting the A model that I bought. Of course the B’s was a better grand - to me it’s “the grand”, but the size and prize was important too. There are surely many wonderful grands around, to me the Hamburg Steinway B, is the master.


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## Gerbil (Dec 8, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> This is a Hamburg Steinway. I don't think it is one of those rich and warm sounding Steinways. I just forwarded the link to this to a friend of mine who does a lot of touring, and is a Steinway artist (having Steinways brought in for various performances). His take is that the Hamburg Steinways have harder hammers (and he feels that even the newer New York Steinways are going in that direction). Not a lot of low end. Listening to the demos, his thought was that the new VSL D was the type of piano you'd get for a performance if you asked the rental agency for a "concerto piano." Bright and powerful, capable of being heard easily over a large orchestra. He mentioned that if you want the other kind, you ask for a "Debussy piano" or a "Chamber music/Mozart" Steinway. It seems to me, the new VSL D is an excellent representation of a "concerto piano." The Embertone Walker would be more of a Debussy/Mozart/Chamber Steinway.
> 
> All excellent pianos, but they sound different, and would be selected for different purposes.
> 
> Here in the states, I think a lot of us often run into the more vintage New York Steinway D pianos that have a much darker tone (and often take a LOT more effort to play). There are a lot of them out there.



It's a fair point although I've played on a few Hamburg Steinway Ds here in Europe (my favourite is in the Jack Lyons concert hall at York University) that still radiate a warmth I haven't heard yet from this. But I haven't heard the sort of music played on it that would really bring out what I'm listening for.

For now at least, when practising warhorse concertos and the like, I'm happy enough with the CFX. But I'm looking forward to hear more of what this can do.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Dec 8, 2018)

This is an impressive accomplishment. My very first impression from listening to the demos is of the very high quality of the recordings. The piano's preparation and recording are certainly of the very highest level. There are few commercial piano recordings that are that high quality from a technical perspective. The incredibly low noise floor, the clarity of the recordings, the evenness of the dampers. Most classical recordings do not have a piano that sounds that good, or that is anywhere close to that well prepared in a room that is that quiet. It is almost uncanny how good it sounds. And part of the magic is the clarity from the multi-mic setup. Piano's are not that clear in just room mics. But the blending ability can make a "hyper-real" instrument. It almost puts it in the "uncanny valley". I suspect that backing off to the room mics will produce a very familiar "piano concerto" sound. But mixing in the close mics, should make an incredibly detailed but spacious piano. "Hyper-real". 

Not every VSL instrument is a home run, but I have a deep respect for the excellence and consistency of their products. They are the deepest, most consistently excellent sample producer, in my opinion. Expensive, but products like this do stand out for their excellence.

When they released the video comparing their three pianos several months ago, the Steinway stood out to me then, and I thought, "I'm not sure I want the CFX sound, but that Steinway is amazing - I hope they sample it!". And here it is. 

I record my Kawaii RX-7 regularly, and it sounds great. But the raw quality of the recordings for this new library are beyond impressive. State of the art. I have no comment on its playability or usefulness to serve as an emotional trigger. I haven't played it. But the raw sound is tremendously good. It is a towering technical achievement.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 8, 2018)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> This is an impressive accomplishment. My very first impression from listening to the demos is of the very high quality of the recordings. The piano's preparation and recording are certainly of the very highest level. There are few commercial piano recordings that are that high quality from a technical perspective. The incredibly low noise floor, the clarity of the recordings, the evenness of the dampers. Most classical recordings do not have a piano that sounds that good, or that is anywhere close to that well prepared in a room that is that quiet. It is almost uncanny how good it sounds. And part of the magic is the clarity from the multi-mic setup. Piano's are not that clear in just room mics. But the blending ability can make a "hyper-real" instrument. It almost puts it in the "uncanny valley". I suspect that backing off to the room mics will produce a very familiar "piano concerto" sound. But mixing in the close mics, should make an incredibly detailed but spacious piano. "Hyper-real".



It might just be me, and my ears, but there's something about playing dense chords on sampled pianos vs. live on a real piano (and definitely not singling out VSL, here) that makes me hear things as somewhat distorted. It just seems to me that all the individually sampled notes, played together, creates what I perceive to be distortion, that I don't hear on a real instrument when everything is combining on one, single soundboard at that precise time. I don't have a scientific explanation, but I would imagine that in the combining samples notes, we might be getting an extra quantity of resonances that we don't get when it's all simultaneously on one soundboard. It's more noticeable to me with brighter instruments. It would be an interesting to research (set up A/B comparisons of combined notes vs. notes played together on the same piano, with the same mic setup). 

I also seem to think that mixing multiple mics makes things worse.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 8, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> It might just be me, and my ears, but there's something about playing dense chords on sampled pianos vs. live on a real piano (and definitely not singling out VSL, here) that makes me hear things as somewhat distorted.




Any sampled piano you compare to a $300,000. grand, there will obviously be a difference, if you only look at it that way, you better start saving your money.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Dec 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Any sampled piano you compare to a $300,000. grand, there will obviously be a difference, if you only look at it that way, you better start saving your money.


Indeed. I have a real piano, so I don't judge sampled pianos as a way to replace my piano. Sampled pianos are for mockups, color, or other production purposes. This piano (and others) are well beyond what is needed to satisfy even most musicians that they are hearing a piano and have their brains put the sound in that category.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 8, 2018)

The demos shows that you can have excellent results, even among virtuosic classical pieces, which is really not that obvious with sampled pianos, but no one is pretending it replaces a live Steinway & Sons D-274. 2nd best isn't bad though.


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## FabioA (Dec 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Any sampled piano you compare to a $300,000. grand, there will obviously be a difference, if you only look at it that way, you better start saving your money.


And most of all, there will obviously be a difference between hearing through a stereo/surround system and listening to the real thing happening live. How harmonics blend together in a real space will be never achieved within a digital or even analogic summa. And yes, that difference can totally be defined as a distortion


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Any sampled piano you compare to a $300,000. grand, there will obviously be a difference, if you only look at it that way, you better start saving your money.



I've already got a Yamaha CFIII and smaller Kawai grand here, so I've got good pianos, and I'm out of room for more pianos.  I still want different sounding piano options, though. 

I think it's interesting to identify the things we're listening for as we evaluate the constant stream of new sampled pianos coming out. The way things seem to mix on the soundboard just seems to be something I'm noticing more as time goes on. As this whole market matures, I think people just generally get more discerning (even if we've reached a point where things are quite good). And, it's sure a lot more than having the $300,000 piano. You need the multi-million dollar studio or concert hall, and a lot of fancy mics and converters, too. 

A more extreme case of what I think we're hearing would be the difference of a single electric guitar note played through a guitar amp (with whatever distortion setting is dialed in) vs. two or more notes played together through the same amp. What they sound like, together, through the amp is going to be different than if you took the sampled notes individually through the amp, and played them together as samples.

And ultimately, even if we acknowledge that the real $300,000 piano is going to be better, I think consumers and users are really on a quest to have the relatively inexpensive VI that actually DOES equal the $300,000 instrument. Every time a company releases a new high-end piano VI, we perk our ears up and wonder if this is finally IT. Eventually, someone will do it. Or, as I mentioned earlier (in regard to the Hammond organ), people will determine that there are qualities and quirks of the sampled VI that they like better than the real thing.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 8, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I've already got a Yamaha CFIII and smaller Kawai grand here, so I've got good pianos, and I'm out of room for more pianos.  I still want different sounding piano options, though.
> 
> I think it's interesting to identify the things we're listening for as we evaluate the constant stream of new sampled pianos coming out. The way things seem to mix on the soundboard just seems to be something I'm noticing more as time goes on. As this whole market matures, I think people just generally get more discerning (even if we've reached a point where things are quite good). And, it's sure a lot more than having the $300,000 piano. You need the multi-million dollar studio or concert hall, and a lot of fancy mics and converters, too.
> 
> ...



You obviously have a very refined ear, could be a bit dangerous sometimes, and in some way, I thank God, I don't


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Any sampled piano you compare to a $300,000. grand, there will obviously be a difference, if you only look at it that way, you better start saving your money.



For fun, let's think about this from a different angle... Think about photography. I can go to a beautiful spot in the world, take a picture with a good camera (or even a good phone, these days), and the combination of my camera settings and what I do with the photo afterwards (adjust in PhotoShop, add filters, etc.) can give me an image that looks WAY better than what I saw when I was really there, looking at it with my own eyes. Colors more vibrant. Lighting more directed, and artfully illuminating what we most want to see, depth of field separating background from foreground.

Maybe we should be expecting piano VIs to be a LOT better than the real thing.  We've arrived at that point with photography.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Well, while I see your point, and an interesting one, there is something wrong with that argument. You say can look WAY better, you'd have to define what "WAY better" means, because you could almost always tell when a photo has been photoshopped, while it can look really cool, it can also look unnatural. So I think there's a balance we need to take into account here.



But that's what artists do, isn't it? No matter if it's photography, or painting, or music, or whatever. Take things and nature and manipulate them into some new reality, in either subtle or dramatic ways. It's just that we have some new capabilities to bring what we want about. I'm sure Horowitz spent a lot of time talking to his piano technician to get the qualities he was going for out of his instrument.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 8, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> For fun, let's think about this from a different angle... Think about photography. I can go to a beautiful spot in the world, take a picture with a good camera (or even a good phone, these days), and the combination of my camera settings and what I do with the photo afterwards (adjust in PhotoShop, add filters, etc.) can give me an image that looks WAY better than what I saw when I was really there, looking at it with my own eyes. Colors more vibrant. Lighting more directed, and artfully illuminating what we most want to see, depth of field separating background from foreground.
> 
> Maybe we should be expecting piano VIs to be a LOT better than the real thing.  We've arrived at that point with photography.



Some photoshopped photos are very cool but not always natural, so I think that argument would need nuances. But more to your point, yes, I've heard some recordings that sound better than a live listening could ever give.


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## bvaughn0402 (Dec 8, 2018)

Anyone with both the D and CFX ... possible to post a clip comparing the two?

I'm interested in the D ... but I really need to quite spending money.


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## al_net77 (Dec 8, 2018)

If you can provide a good midi file I can render it with both.


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## bvaughn0402 (Dec 8, 2018)

Thanks! I'm not really picky ... just want to hear the tone of maybe the Concert vs Concert, or Pop vs Pop. Just regular chordal things would be awesome. Do you have anything like that as MIDI?


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## slobajudge (Dec 8, 2018)

bvaughn0402 said:


> Anyone with both the D and CFX ... possible to post a clip comparing the two?
> 
> I'm interested in the D ... but I really need to quite spending money.


There is a similar thread in Piano world forum about it and one of users on page 2 near the end of page (at the moment) compare this two pianos but no demos


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## bvaughn0402 (Dec 8, 2018)

Thanks, I read that. It sounded a bit mixed ... "I love the Steinway, but it sounds thinner than the CFX" ...


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## Cartoon (Dec 8, 2018)

slobajudge said:


> There is a similar thread in Piano world forum about it and one of users on page 2 near the end of page (at the moment) compare this two pianos but no demos



Can you repost it?


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## CGR (Dec 8, 2018)

FabioA said:


> How harmonics blend together in a real space


This is the key difference I think, particularly in dense chords and large runs with the sustain pedal engaged. The stacking & summing of separately sampled notes surely wouldn't have the coherence of those same notes played and recorded as a single performance. I suspect various harmonics would be excited and triggered in the real performance which wouldn't happen (or would happen differently) in the 'sample-stacked' sound.

Slightly off topic, but related to the above, I recall watching a video with a recording engineer/producer, talking about recording vocal harmonies with the Bee Gees, and how they not only preferred to all sing together at the same time into the same large diaphragm microphone, but that is sounded better than recording individual performances and mixing them later. You could argue that they would also feel more comfortable all singing together, and therefore give a better performance, but I also suspect that there is something going on acoustic-wise as well, which results in a more natural blending of the voices when they were recorded singing together.


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## slobajudge (Dec 8, 2018)

Cartoon said:


> Can you repost it?


Post is long, and I don`t know if he has something against so here it is direct link to that post
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...0/re-vsl-steinway-d-released.html#Post2789070


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## Mason (Dec 8, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> For the Falla, I used in the factory setting: 01 Decca Tree Multi-Mic Presets/Steinway-Concert_DeccaTree, but reduced a bit the Main fader to what you see. There is a lot to explore in that area, I've only started. For the other ones, it might be VSL who chose the mix, so I'm not sure, but if you really want to know, Paul can fill you in on the VSL forum on the Steinway thread.



Thanks, love it!


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 8, 2018)

slobajudge said:


> Post is long, and I don`t know if he has something against so here it is direct link to that post
> http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...0/re-vsl-steinway-d-released.html#Post2789070



Wow, interesting range of opinions. Just goes to show that it's not a one-size-fits-all world when it comes to piano samples.


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## Dietz (Dec 8, 2018)

Slighty OT:



Lee Blaske said:


> Think about photography. I can go to a beautiful spot in the world, take a picture with a good camera (or even a good phone, these days), and the combination of my camera settings and *what I do with the photo afterwards (adjust in PhotoShop, add filters, etc.)* can give me an image that looks WAY better than what I saw when I was really there, looking at it with my own eyes. *Colors more vibrant. Lighting more directed, and artfully illuminating what we most want to see, depth of field separating background from foreground.*
> 
> Maybe we should be expecting piano VIs to be a LOT better than the real thing.  We've arrived at that point with photography.



Interesting comparison! To take it a bit further: That's what mixing engineers (or generally spoken: the art of of mixing and post-pro) are here for. 

We wouldn't expect out-of-the-box solutions for that perfectly 'shopped photo either, would we? The vibrant colours, the separation from the background etc. is what happens after individual, context-dependent fine-tuning and tweaking of different parameters. Everything we need to start is a picture of a beautiful spot in the world, or in our case: Good audio recordings. The rest, the "better than life"-part, is up to us, the piece of music we played, and the mixing decisions we take.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 8, 2018)

Dietz said:


> Slighty OT:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I'd say major decisions that can have enormous impact on the end result can be made anywhere along the way. Continuing the photo analogy... Ansel Adams didn't just go out and snap pictures hither and yon and then let the people at the mail-in photo lab turn them into masterpieces. 

It does come down to a matter of what is practical, though. If we hope to get anything done, we need let other people handle some of the process. When I need to lay down a piano track, I don't want to start by going to the forest to select the tree from which the Steinway I want to use will be made.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Dec 8, 2018)

If you really want to go after the photo analogy, then a sample library is the perfect way to get there. My real piano only does a real piano thing. But the ability to mix mic positions lets you have a super detailed but ambient piano - a thing that doesn't exist acoustically.


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## heisenberg (Dec 8, 2018)




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## Casiquire (Dec 8, 2018)

I'd much rather have something that sounds real and then it's in my hands to make it sound even better in mixing/mastering, and that's more VSL's philosophy anyway. Fortunately there are plenty of products out there for both styles of working!


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## al_net77 (Dec 9, 2018)

bvaughn0402 said:


> Thanks! I'm not really picky ... just want to hear the tone of maybe the Concert vs Concert, or Pop vs Pop. Just regular chordal things would be awesome. Do you have anything like that as MIDI?



None at the moment, some works but aren't mine and not publishied yet... I could try to record something but in a few days (busy at the moment).


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## Nathanael Iversen (Dec 9, 2018)

I notice they have him playing the samples from a Lachnit keyboard. These are handmade MIDI controllers from Vienna by a former Bosendorfer master technician (which is an extremely prestigious position). This controller can output high-def MIDI (4096 levels) or standard. Does anyone know if the VSL Synchron pianos respond to high-def MIDI? I have a VAX77 that can output it, and is optically triggered like the Lachnit in the video.

[UPDATED]: Paul at VSL confirmed that it responds to standard MIDI only. No High-def. Not at all a deal-breaker, I just wanted to know.


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## slobajudge (Dec 9, 2018)

I don`t think that any sample piano respond to high definition midi. As far as I know Pianoteq respond because it is modeling piano without samples.


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## CGR (Dec 9, 2018)

slobajudge said:


> I don`t think that any sample piano respond to high definition midi. As far as I know Pianoteq respond because it is modeling piano without samples.


I think the Synthogy Ivory 2.5 Pianos do.


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## Knomes (Dec 9, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> It might just be me, and my ears, but there's something about playing dense chords on sampled pianos vs. live on a real piano (and definitely not singling out VSL, here) that makes me hear things as somewhat distorted. It just seems to me that all the individually sampled notes, played together, creates what I perceive to be distortion, that I don't hear on a real instrument when everything is combining on one, single soundboard at that precise time. I don't have a scientific explanation, but I would imagine that in the combining samples notes, we might be getting an extra quantity of resonances that we don't get when it's all simultaneously on one soundboard. It's more noticeable to me with brighter instruments. It would be an interesting to research (set up A/B comparisons of combined notes vs. notes played together on the same piano, with the same mic setup).
> 
> I also seem to think that mixing multiple mics makes things worse.



Hi, this is not my field at all but as a physicist I could share with you some reasonings.
In general the instruments are highly complex physical bodies with a lot of complex interactions between their different parts. So, of course, just sampling the different notes and then playing them together does not keep count of these interactions.

One thing that comes to my mind is that our instruments are tuned with the 12 intervals evenly divised. That means that, in general, the frequency of each note is calculated from the semitone lower note by multiplying the frequency for (2)^(1/12). So, the SOL of the piano has not 3 times the frequency of a lower DO.
However, it exists a physical phenomen called synchronization that you can see in this video:


I do not know exactly how it enters in the physics of a piano with many keys pressed but my intuition says that it is connected.
As someone said next, there was a group that preferred to sing together. I think the explanation is the same. By singing together they are more likely singing notes that are harmonically connected.

There are also the resonances that take place, especially when the sustain pedal is down. It's not the same phenomenon even if it is connected to synchronization.
I know that some sample libraries try to take account of resonances, but when there are many notes the resonances can become quite difficult to calculate.

Do not take this as the true explanation, these are just thoughts that I had by reading the posts in this thread.


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## slobajudge (Dec 9, 2018)

CGR said:


> I think the Synthogy Ivory 2.5 Pianos do.


But what is the point of high res when Ivory only have 20-22 locked recorded velocity layers ? As far as I know only pure math calculation use full high res midi beyond 127. Sorry if I don`t know exactly whats going on.


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## Casiquire (Dec 9, 2018)

slobajudge said:


> But what is the point of high res when Ivory only have 20-22 locked recorded velocity layers ? As far as I know only pure math calculation use full high res midi beyond 127. Sorry if I don`t know exactly whats going on.



I have to agree with this. Even VSL with over 100 is still under 128 and still more than enough for a piano in my opinion. The original concept of midi was made so wonderfully obsolescence-resistant! I'm intrigued by HD midi though. This is the first I've heard of it


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 9, 2018)

Knomes said:


> Hi, this is not my field at all but as a physicist I could share with you some reasonings.
> In general the instruments are highly complex physical bodies with a lot of complex interactions between their different parts. So, of course, just sampling the different notes and then playing them together does not keep count of these interactions.
> 
> One thing that comes to my mind is that our instruments are tuned with the 12 intervals evenly divised. That means that, in general, the frequency of each note is calculated from the semitone lower note by multiplying the frequency for (2)^(1/12). So, the SOL of the piano has not 3 times the frequency of a lower DO.
> ...




Great example. I remember seeing that metronome video before. It would be interesting to know to what extent this is going on with strings on a piano soundboard.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 9, 2018)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> I notice they have him playing the samples from a Lachnit keyboard. These are handmade MIDI controllers from Vienna by a former Bosendorfer master technician (which is an extremely prestigious position). This controller can output high-def MIDI (4096 levels) or standard. Does anyone know if the VSL Synchron pianos respond to high-def MIDI? I have a VAX77 that can output it, and is optically triggered like the Lachnit in the video.
> 
> [UPDATED]: Paul at VSL confirmed that it responds to standard MIDI only. No High-def. Not at all a deal-breaker, I just wanted to know.




Would there be any practical way that more than 127 levels of MIDI info could be used, if you didn't have more than 127 separate dynamic levels of samples?


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## Nathanael Iversen (Dec 10, 2018)

If it works for modeled pianos, why not for samples? It isn't about having 4096 dynamic levels, or something. It is about having natural small variation from note to note. Whether it triggers more than 20 or even 100 recorded samples is not the point. How does it trigger them? how does it adjust attack/release, harmonic density, whatever. There is plenty of math in a sample library that would suffice as a place to implement something. This isn't even about conscious control by the player. I can't play 128 discrete velocity levels, and neither can anyone else. It is about having the sound feel more alive. Pianoteq does this on a high-def MIDI controller. It doesn't sound quite the same as excellent samples, but the player experience is pretty spot on for expression. How do these get married up in a "SampleModelling" kind of way. Sample, but with the extra. String resonance is one such attempt in the programming. Surely there are more or can be better executed?

I don't have a specific ask. I'm not unhappy. But if it works for synth and model expressiveness, is it reasonable to think there would be other applications? That is my question. Few people have high-def controllers today, but there is no reason to expect this to continue forever.

BTW "HighDef MIDI" is a standard - it is part of the MIDI spec. It uses CC#88 to increase the resolution for each note to 14 bits. The Synthogy Ivory II pianos apparently implement it, which I just found out from a Google search. Pianoteq definitely does.


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## CGR (Dec 10, 2018)

I was listening to the Synchron Steinway demos, and remembered I had a MIDI file of the Chopin Etude Op.10 No.5 (known as the 'Black Keys Etude'), so as a comparison, here it is with another sampled Hamburg Steinway D (hall mics) plus some added Spaces Reverb (NY Hall):

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hamburg-steinway_d-spaces_chopin_et_op_10_no_5-mp3.16998/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## CGR (Dec 10, 2018)

Same MIDI file as above, played with a sampled Imperial Bosendorfer 290 (Hall mics) + Spaces NY Hall reverb. Also some of my own improvised playing (the middle section incorporates a tune based on a demo piece of Troels from 8dio for their 1971 Estonia Grand) highlighting the combination of the Hall mics + Spaces.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bosendorfer-290-spaces_chopin_et_op_10_no_5-mp3.17000/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bosendorfer-290-spaces_testing-mp3.17001/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## CGR (Dec 10, 2018)

A member on Piano World Forum was bemoaning the inability of sampled/virtual pianos which could bring out the contrapuntal lines of a Rachmaninoff Prelude as well as a real recording by the pianist Emil Gilels:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...-thats-the-sound-that-i-want.html#Post2789950

Thought I'd see how one of the sampled Hamburg Steinway Ds I have would hold up. Here's the result. (the section he's referring to starts around 1:49 in my audio file).

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sampled-hamburg-d_rach-prelude-in-g-op23-no-5-mp3.17016/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Phryq (Dec 11, 2018)

How's it compare to Embertone's piano?


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## Francis Bourre (Dec 11, 2018)

Anyone would be kind to provide a sample with closed mics and dry sound please? Would enjoy that so much. thanks in advance.


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## Vadium (Dec 11, 2018)

With same settings SY Steinway play same MIDI part much louder and harshly in comparison with SY CFX, it needs to compress velocity to bottom (in picture these parts marked as "lower velocity"). Also there is a broken note C2 (in midi C6), I hope this one will be fixed. Standart library was used, one close mic and one mid mic with same mix settings.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl-sy-steinway-%D0%A16-is-bad-mp3.17023/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl-sy-steinway-vs-cfx-mp3.17024/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Vadium (Dec 11, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Anyone would be kind to provide a sample with closed mics and dry sound please? Would enjoy that so much. thanks in advance.


there is only dry close mic from standart SY Steinway library

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sy-steinway-standart-cloce-mic-only-mp3.17029/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Vadium (Dec 11, 2018)

so, as I think, a best deal for now is to buy a VSL vouchers on the bestservice.com and then buy Steinway also on this site (also check a button "VSL user discount") - at all 229.11$ for a standard version and 335.53$ for full one.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 11, 2018)

Vadium said:


> so, as I think, a best deal for now is to buy a VSL vouchers on the bestservice.com and then buy Steinway also on this site (also check a button "VSL user discount") - at all 214.11$ for a standard version and 320.53$ for full one.



Interesting. Could you explain in a little more detail, step by step, how to do that? Can multiple Vienna Vouchers be used to buy one product? I missed where that would get entered.


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## Vadium (Dec 11, 2018)

go to https://www.bestservice.de/vienna_library_voucher.html
and buy 4 vouchers for a 300$ (additionally, as free bonus, you can to select one of impulse reverb Hall of fame, Lex300 is very sweet)
After you do it, you will receive a mail from bestservice with suggestion to let them know, if you will want to buy any VSL product. All you need is to write, what product are you want to buy and how many vouchers you want to use (yes, you can use any count of vouchers, but overall price must be more, than price of vouchers.) So, at first a bought standart version% I select a Stainway on bestservice, put it to cart, press a button VSL user discount check, to know, if there is any discounts, and to obtain a price, that I say to bestservice. After it Bestservice made a BestCoin Bonus (- 5,00 $), so, at all for a standard version I made additional payment of 29.11$ to 2 vouchers by PayPal to bestservice.

In previous message I wrote wrong prices - because I has additional 15$ of BestCoin bonus before buying of vouchers.
So, the right prices is 229.11 for standart and 335.53$ for full


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 11, 2018)

Vadium said:


> go to https://www.bestservice.de/vienna_library_voucher.html
> and buy 4 vouchers for a 300$ (additionally, as free bonus, you can to select one of impulse reverb Hall of fame, Lex300 is very sweet)
> After you do it, you will receive a mail from bestservice with suggestion to let them know, if you will want to buy any VSL product. All you need is to write, what product are you want to buy and how many vouchers you want to use (yes, you can use any count of vouchers, but overall price must be more, than price of vouchers.) So, at first a bought standart version% I select a Stainway on bestservice, put it to cart, press a button VSL user discount check, to know, if there is any discounts, and to obtain a price, that I say to bestservice. After it Bestservice made a BestCoin Bonus (- 5,00 $), so, at all for a standard version I made additional payment of 29.11$ to 2 vouchers by PayPal to bestservice.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all that info! That really is a good deal. I'll end up with the full version for not much more than I'd pay for the standard, and get two of those reverbs in the process (I think... I already got one buying the vouchers). Keeping my fingers crossed it all goes through okay.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 11, 2018)

Vadium said:


> there is only dry close mic from standart SY Steinway library
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sy-steinway-standart-cloce-mic-only-mp3.17029/][/AUDIOPLUS]



That dry sample was really helpful. I made an A/B comparison of that, playing something similar on a totally dry version of the Synchron CFX, and it confirmed that the CFX and the Steinway sound quite different.


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## Vadium (Dec 11, 2018)

hm, I am not sure about it is possible to get additional 2 reverb in process, because your additional payment is not so big for get a free bonus, but maybe you're lucky)


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 11, 2018)

Vadium said:


> hm, I am not sure about it is possible to get additional 2 reverb in process, because your additional payment is not so big for get a free bonus, but maybe you're lucky)



I get it. No big deal. I've already got a gazillion reverbs, anyway.


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## Vadium (Dec 11, 2018)

there are dry separate SY Steinway mics (not all, but most) for tests in dae. https://cloud.mail.ru/public/4GtE/LrzUmbkv6


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## CGR (Dec 11, 2018)

Re. Dryer sounding demos, the member 'Erard' at Piano World Forum used the VSL Synchron Steinway to render a Chopin Nocturne using a less distant sounding mic mix here (the post has a link to a downloadable WAV file):

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2789070/3.html

As a comparison, here is a MIDI file of the same Chopin Nocturne using another Sampled Steinway D, in this case, The Grandeur:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/chopin-nocturne-in-d-flat-op-27-no-2-excerpt-spaces-mp3.17045/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Francis Bourre (Dec 13, 2018)

Vadium said:


> there are dry separate SY Steinway mics (not all, but most) for tests in dae. https://cloud.mail.ru/public/4GtE/LrzUmbkv6


Thanks. I really like the close tube, but it looks like if I want to get this mic settings I have to pay double price.


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## Vadium (Dec 13, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Thanks. I really like the close tube, but it looks like if I want to get this mic settings I have to pay double price.


for me a better result is a mix of ALL close mics, similar CFX: full version or nothing.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sy-steinway-all-close-and-mid-mics-mp3.17080/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Francis Bourre (Dec 13, 2018)

Vadium said:


> for me a better result is a mix of ALL close mics, similar CFX: full version or nothing.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sy-steinway-all-close-and-mid-mics-mp3.17080/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Yeah, you're right, that's really nice.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 13, 2018)

Okay, bought the full version and installed it yesterday. I've been playing with it. Overall, I think it's really a finely crafted piece of work. It is definitely a bright and powerful piano, though. It's not meant for thoughtful, poignant, smokey, introspective film score noodling (at least IMO). It seems designed to stand up and take charge and heaven help anyone in the way.  Definitely a place for that.

In trying to get the most introspective, close mic'ed sound out of it, the condenser mics are definitely my favorites. The tube mics sound too bright too me. There's a different quality to the ribbons that I might like and use in certain contexts. The have kind of an interesting, fuzzy character. I think the ribbons are most effective on things played in the midrange of the instrument, and probably best for simple playing (I miss fullness of the bass on the ribbons). To get a warm sound on any of the close mics, I do think you need to roll of quite a bit of high end. For me, though, if I didn't have the tube or ribbon mics, it wouldn't be a big deal. The condenser is the clear winner, IMO.

As far as flaws are concerned, there's a buzz on C6 that catches my attention, but I know real instruments do this sort of thing (and technicians often find it impossible to deal with these things). Also, it's the character of this instrument, but the highest two octaves are really quite percussive and ping-y. It would be hard to coax a singing tone out of that range, IMO.

I do think I'm forming an opinion on use of multiple mics on Synchron pianos (I have both of them). If possible, I think I'm going to prefer to pick one mic position, and just use that one, rather than mix a number of them, unless my goal is for a contextual piano back in the weeds, or something really ambient. I think what you're playing might really impact this choice. If you're playing fast, clean passages, or if you're playing clean, pure combinations (powerful octaves, fifths), using multiple mics works (again IMO). But to my ears, once you start playing complex harmonies, things get kind of trashy as multiple mics compete. I would think it's a matter of all those phase differences between multiple mics combined. And, I think it rapidly gets to a situation where you're exciting way more harmonics with multiple notes than you ever would on a real instrument, playing a particular combination of notes. I guess I'd rather just use one of my favorite external reverb plug-ins if I need more room than my chosen mic position offers.

To get a warm sound, I also experiment in decreasing the MIDI sensitivity quite drastically. That helps, but then you're simply not using the higher velocity samples. What I think also helps for a warm, close piano sound is adding a tape emulation plug in to at least add a tiny bit of noise floor. Otherwise, with just close mics, the instrument sounds too squeaky clean.

One more observation... To my ears, the una corda pedal on the Steinway D doesn't make that much difference. In contrast, using the una corda on the Synchron CFX is quite noticeable.


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## FabioA (Jan 7, 2019)

Since it's the last day for the introductory price, I thought to share this recording and the walkthrough I did with the Steinway D-274. 
It's a chamber piece for Piano and voice. As you know, it's definitely NOT easy for a virtual piano to stand with the dynamic of a real operatic voice for almost 3 minutes. I definitely couldn't do that with any other pianos of my collection.

Synchron Steinway D & MIR Pro - L'Alba Separa Dalla Luce L'Ombra

That recording has also been the chance to test out how the Synchron Series blends with other audio sources thanks to MIR Pro and the Synchron Stage package; in this case, the recording of a soprano performance. That's what I tried to show in this video:

Synchron Steinway D & MIR Pro - Piano and Voice - Walkthrough


I hope you find that interesting!


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## Casiquire (Jan 7, 2019)

FabioA said:


> Since it's the last day for the introductory price, I thought to share this recording and the walkthrough I did with the Steinway D-274.
> It's a chamber piece for Piano and voice. As you know, it's definitely NOT easy for a virtual piano to stand with the dynamic of a real operatic voice for almost 3 minutes. I definitely couldn't do that with any other pianos of my collection.
> 
> Synchron Steinway D & MIR Pro - L'Alba Separa Dalla Luce L'Ombra
> ...



Thanks for sharing! I love things like this, and the piano's dynamics really are fantastic. The piano is completely convincing in my opinion.

The piano does sound a bit more wet than the voice and it sounds much darker which puts them into separate rooms to my ears. I wonder if others agree or not but the piano is a little muted, maybe a bump in some higher frequencies to bring it forward just a bit more, and an even-but-opposite cut on hers? I'm curious what other far more talented people think.


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 7, 2019)

Casiquire said:


> I wonder if others agree or not but the piano is a little muted, maybe a bump in some higher frequencies to bring it forward just a bit more, and an even-but-opposite cut on hers? I'm curious what other far more talented people think.



Do you have the VI, yourself? The thing I find about it is that it's quite a bright, powerful and aggressive instrument. So, to make it fit in various contexts, you really might want to tame it down a bit, or a lot. You can do that by limiting the velocity response, or via EQ (in fact, some of the factory presets have quite a bit of high frequency roll-off built into them). And interestingly, some rather extreme EQ does kind of work to mellow things out, but it works consistently across the whole range of the instrument (i.e. you're not doing a zone-by-zone voicing the way a good piano technician would do it). So, in bringing some aspects in control with EQ, you might end up making other areas a bit dull. It's really a judgement call, and personally, I find going either way can be valid.

If you don't yet own it, and you do get it, I think you'll understand once you start working with it. 

Weirdly, I think I've personally arrived at a point where I'm way more persnickety about the way a piano sounds in a recording I'm working on than I am when listening to recordings where I had no involvement. When I'm listening to other people's pieces, I'm paying more attention to the composition and performance than I am to the piano tone. If the piano on someone else's project is in the ballpark, I just accept it for what it is.


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## FabioA (Jan 7, 2019)

Casiquire said:


> Thanks for sharing! I love things like this, and the piano's dynamics really are fantastic. The piano is completely convincing in my opinion.
> 
> The piano does sound a bit more wet than the voice and it sounds much darker which puts them into separate rooms to my ears. I wonder if others agree or not but the piano is a little muted, maybe a bump in some higher frequencies to bring it forward just a bit more, and an even-but-opposite cut on hers? I'm curious what other far more talented people think.



Thank you for listening! 
For sure there's a lot of experimentation you can do with both products. I did that straight away when I got the Piano, so I didn't figure out already everything was possible to do! In general I definitely wouldn't say that piano is dark (I'm not saying you're wrong! it may sound dark here compared to the voice). On the opposite, comparing this piano to other piano libraries I have, I have to remove some highs and add low-mid to achieve the sound of the EW Pianos Steinway D, for example. That's the great part, you can really sculpt your sound because it starts very neutral, but still offering different sonic characters thanks to 3 very different close mikings (condenser, tube and ribbon).


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## Casiquire (Jan 7, 2019)

I am indeed speaking solely in relation to the voice in the effort of getting them into the same room. Maybe the piano itself is bright, however in this recording I'm hearing a bit of an imbalance between it and the vocal. That's all I was trying to say 

As a guy who doesn't favor Yamaha because of its brightness, I find it totally believable that the instrument itself would lean in that direction.


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## newman (Jan 15, 2019)

VSL released an update with improved velocity mapping.

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/pos...e-welcome--Steinway-and-Sons-D-274#post280134


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## good (Jan 15, 2019)

newman said:


> VSL released an update with improved velocity mapping.
> 
> https://www.vsl.co.at/community/pos...e-welcome--Steinway-and-Sons-D-274#post280134



very nice update to satisfy many people who felt sorry for the velocity mapping of VSL Steinway.


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## s_bettinzana (Apr 8, 2019)

Hello!
While waiting for the VSL answer, do you know if you can set a non-linear (curved) MIDI-velocity transfer function in the Vienna Synchron Pianos player?
I have found nothing in the User Manual.

Anyway, the sound is fantastic!


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## antcarrier (Apr 8, 2019)

s_bettinzana said:


> Hello!
> While waiting for the VSL answer, do you know if you can set a non-linear (curved) MIDI-velocity transfer function in the Vienna Synchron Pianos player?
> I have found nothing in the User Manual.
> 
> Anyway, the sound is fantastic!



No you can't. It's one of the more regular feature requests that comes up.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Apr 8, 2019)

I finally installed it. What a beautiful instrument. This is definitely the best piano sample I own or have played. It is magnificent in surround. Very, very pleased.


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## s_bettinzana (Apr 9, 2019)

antcarrier said:


> No you can't. It's one of the more regular feature requests that comes up.



Thank you!


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## good (Jun 11, 2019)

Synchron Pianos New Update 1.1.1333 Changelog

June 4 th , 2019
Synchron Pianos 1.1.1333
• Added: Support for *upcoming* products

bösendorfer..?


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## CGR (Jun 11, 2019)

good said:


> Synchron Pianos New Update 1.1.1333 Changelog
> 
> June 4 th , 2019
> Synchron Pianos 1.1.1333
> ...



Ahh, now I'm interested.


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## al_net77 (Jun 11, 2019)

I think it was related to the *Synchron Concert D-274 "Light"* in SYNCHRON-ized SE


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## good (Jun 11, 2019)

al_net77 said:


> I think it was related to the *Synchron Concert D-274 "Light"* in SYNCHRON-ized SE



ah I had a short flutter until you instruct the info.


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