# Cinematic Studio Strings 1.7 - audio examples and general discussion



## I like music (Aug 30, 2022)

Hi everyone,

In the announcement thread, Alex Wallbank asked that any audio examples and demos be kept out of that thread and added into a different one. Given that people have probably just finished downloading their shiny new CSS update/library, I thought we could start a new thread.

Hopefully people can add examples and demos here. My internet is crap so I won't be able to contribute for many many more hours.


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## Stardog24 (Aug 30, 2022)

Here's a really quick sketch of just vib legato to compare the sound.

New version to my ear sounds way more open and alive, and much of the classic CSS hiss is gone. Love it. Can't wait to explore more.

I've also included CSSS of the same piece just for the hell of it.


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## NoamL (Aug 30, 2022)

Cool idea. Here are some demos.

First is a snippet from John Williams's "Tintin" (this is not the out of the box mix, I like to mix it brighter & roomier). 

The agility is unparalleled, check out that scale run at the end!!



I think this snippet really shows how consistent the new programming is too. Every keyswitch except harmonics is in there somewhere but they all flow together wonderfully. 

Next a quick mockup of Vivaldi. This was a 'speed mockup' attempt using JUST the marcato patches for the most part. (Harpsichord is from Rinascimento). There are a few F0 keyswitches in there but you can get surprisingly far with the F#0 marcatos.


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## I like music (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Here's a really quick sketch of just vib legato to compare the sound.
> 
> New version to my ear sounds way more open and alive, and much of the classic CSS hiss is gone. Love it. Can't wait to explore more.
> 
> I've also included CSSS of the same piece just for the hell of it.


Thank you for sharing! Did you change much up between the two in terms of articulations (legato for example?) or is it mostly like-for-like


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## I like music (Aug 30, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Cool idea. Here are some demos.
> 
> First is a snippet from John Williams's "Tintin" (this is not the out of the box mix, I like to mix it brighter & roomier).
> 
> ...



Holy moly!!! He doesn't need to create ten new string libraries when he's got one that is clearly top tier. Thanks for sharing.

EDIT: the run at the end there, was that done with the marcato patch?!


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## NoamL (Aug 30, 2022)

And one more

here's a little cue I wrote for Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass, Winds - for percussion there's CineSamples (MUSIO) and also Spitfire Percussion.

The orchestra got the sheet music right before the ceremony! Hmm… I *think* they managed to agree on a key by the end of the piece?…


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## Stardog24 (Aug 30, 2022)

I like music said:


> Thank you for sharing! Did you change much up between the two in terms of articulations (legato for example?) or is it mostly like-for-like


No MIDI data changed. All on expressive legato (or Advanced in the case of the old version) so the timings would match up. Just loaded up the new versions of CSS on each channel and bounced.

Did it all rather quickly in a flurry of excitement, so do please forgive me if I missed something important.


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## I like music (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> No MIDI data changed. All on expressive legato (or Advanced in the case of the old version) so the timings would match up. Just loaded up the new versions of CSS on each channel and bounced.
> 
> Did it all rather quickly in a flurry of excitement, so do please forgive me if I missed something important.


Really good to see the improvement simply by swapping out the instrument. It means that a few old mockups that I did, will probably not a huge amount of tweaking. Thanks!


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## Ricgus3 (Aug 30, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Cool idea. Here are some demos.
> 
> First is a snippet from John Williams's "Tintin" (this is not the out of the box mix, I like to mix it brighter & roomier).
> 
> ...



Shieeeet. That sounds amazing


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## Ricgus3 (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Here's a really quick sketch of just vib legato to compare the sound.
> 
> New version to my ear sounds way more open and alive, and much of the classic CSS hiss is gone. Love it. Can't wait to explore more.
> 
> I've also included CSSS of the same piece just for the hell of it.


Do you mind sharing the midi for this?


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## liquidlino (Aug 30, 2022)

NoamL said:


> And one more, here's a composition in context.
> 
> Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass, Winds - for percussion there's CineSamples (MUSIO) and also Spitfire Percussion.
> 
> The orchestra got the sheet music right before the ceremony! Hmm… I *think* they managed to agree on a key by the end of the piece?…



how on earth did you get three demos out since it was released only hours ago???


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## Stardog24 (Aug 30, 2022)

Ricgus3 said:


> Do you mind sharing the midi for this?


With pleasure, though it's nothing particularly exciting in terms of some of the new features of the update.

Keyswitches are triggered by Articulation Sets, but should show up in the MIDI to make sure you're on the Expressive patch.


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## Juulu (Aug 30, 2022)

Someone posted an example of the infamous string runs from Hedwig's theme in the update release thread, thought it should be posted here. https://vi-control.net/community/th...-v1-7-available-august-30.129198/post-5171715


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## NoamL (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Here's a really quick sketch of just vib legato to compare the sound.
> 
> New version to my ear sounds way more open and alive, and much of the classic CSS hiss is gone. Love it. Can't wait to explore more.
> 
> I've also included CSSS of the same piece just for the hell of it.



Those #4 suspensions are sick, Stardog! Classic Hollywood!



I like music said:


> EDIT: the run at the end there, was that done with the marcato patch?!



Yes - the standard marcato legato, with the overlay accenting only the bow changes. 



liquidlino said:


> how on earth did you get three demos out since it was released only hours ago???



I made the first two demos to give Alex feedback during testing. And wrote the *'Hogwarts Graduation'* piece yesterday evening.



Juulu said:


> Someone posted an example of the infamous string runs from Hedwig's theme in the update release thread, thought it should be posted here. https://vi-control.net/community/th...-v1-7-available-august-30.129198/post-5171715


Amazing work @inthevoid !


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## Tremendouz (Aug 30, 2022)

Just some legatos using the expressive mode and the violas are using marcato legatos. Modwheel was left to a fixed position so you can hear how it sounds out of the box


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## I like music (Aug 30, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Those #4 suspensions are sick, Stardog! Classic Hollywood!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Super cool thanks! Hang on, how do you switch the overlay on and off on some notes? Is there a dedicated CC for that? I have never even checked this possibility out before!


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## inthevoid (Aug 30, 2022)

Juulu said:


> Someone posted an example of the infamous string runs from Hedwig's theme in the update release thread, thought it should be posted here. https://vi-control.net/community/th...-v1-7-available-august-30.129198/post-5171715


Thanks for sharing here, only just saw Alex had said to post audio in a separate thread! Oops.


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## jules (Aug 30, 2022)

Tremendouz said:


> Just some legatos using the expressive mode and the violas are using marcato legatos. Modwheel was left to a fixed position so you can hear how it sounds out of the box


Ha. Just when i finally managed to put this one out of my player ! Thank you .


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## NoamL (Aug 30, 2022)

@I like music Yeah there's multiple ways. You can put another F#0 keyswitch right before the accented note (if the F#0 is high velocity it turns on the overlay; low velocity turns it off). That's fiddly but it shows you exactly where the accents are turning on and off. Or you can set up expression maps / ArticulationID, where CC58 controls the articulation selection. The values are on page 8 of the PDF manual but CC#58 set to 68 will do normal marcato and 72 will do marcato with the spiccato overlay.


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## I like music (Aug 30, 2022)

NoamL said:


> @I like music Yeah there's multiple ways. You can put another F#0 keyswitch right before the accented note (if the F#0 is high velocity it turns on the overlay; low velocity turns it off). That's fiddly but it shows you exactly where the accents are turning on and off. Or you can set up expression maps / ArticulationID, where CC58 controls the articulation selection. The values are on page 8 of the PDF manual but CC#58 set to 68 will do normal marcato and 72 will do marcato with the spiccato overlay.


Fantastic, thank you!


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## ToadsworthLP (Aug 30, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Cool idea. Here are some demos.
> 
> First is a snippet from John Williams's "Tintin" (this is not the out of the box mix, I like to mix it brighter & roomier).
> 
> ...



These sound amazing, especially the first one. Is there anything special going on in terms of mixing or did you just adjust the mic balance? I heard there's a new spot mic, so I wonder if this nice brighter sound can be achieved easily now instead of requiring some extra processing like before.


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## dcoscina (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Here's a really quick sketch of just vib legato to compare the sound.
> 
> New version to my ear sounds way more open and alive, and much of the classic CSS hiss is gone. Love it. Can't wait to explore more.
> 
> I've also included CSSS of the same piece just for the hell of it.


dude, this music is great! totally agree about the "live" aspect on the new update. Sounds really good. The music is top drawer too!


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## Pier-V (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> No MIDI data changed. All on expressive legato (or Advanced in the case of the old version) so the timings would match up. Just loaded up the new versions of CSS on each channel and bounced.


Thank you for doing the conversion this way, this is probably the most helpful approach during this first phase. Alex wasn't joking when he said 1.7 mics have a roomier sound! For this mock-up, I think I prefer the original version, mainly because the main melody tends to disappear towards the beginning, but after what I've heard from other examples I'm sure that the right tweaking will solve this issue in the blink of an eye.


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## d4vec4rter (Aug 30, 2022)

OK. Here's a short piece I've knocked up using purely CSS 1.7 apart from the Timpanis. Tried to focus on the shorts, the new Marcato and Low Latency Legato. Sounds pleasing enough to my ears although I'd be spending far more time on it if this was more than just a quick demo piece.


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## Loerpert (Aug 30, 2022)

Is it me or do the Violins 2 sound much better than before?


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## muziksculp (Aug 30, 2022)




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## holywilly (Aug 30, 2022)

Quick question to css owners, do you use CSS solely or layer it with other strings libraries?


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## d4vec4rter (Aug 30, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Quick question to css owners, do you use CSS solely or layer it with other strings libraries?


Both. Depending on the composition.


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## muziksculp (Aug 30, 2022)

LASS 2.5 is one of the libraries I layered CSS with, and got some really nice results. But only when I feel that is needed.


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## d4vec4rter (Aug 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> LASS 2.5 is one of the libraries I layered CSS with, and got some really nice results. But only when I feel that is needed.


LASS is certainly one of the libraries that blend well with CSS. There again, it blends well with quite a few other strings libraries too.


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## Casiquire (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Here's a really quick sketch of just vib legato to compare the sound.
> 
> New version to my ear sounds way more open and alive, and much of the classic CSS hiss is gone. Love it. Can't wait to explore more.
> 
> I've also included CSSS of the same piece just for the hell of it.


That's actually more different than I expected! Thanks for doing that, can't wait to crack it open myself


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## Trash Panda (Aug 30, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Quick question to css owners, do you use CSS solely or layer it with other strings libraries?


Only CSSS in certain scenarios, but I'm not the layering type to begin with.


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## Xabierus Music (Aug 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



oh this is nice to see


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## Tremendouz (Aug 30, 2022)

Some playing around with the reworked marcato legato (no normal legato used here)


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## muk (Aug 30, 2022)

A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:


CSS original

View attachment Emotional Strings CSS original.mp3




CSS v1.7

View attachment Emotional Strings CSS v1.7.mp3


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## Ian Dorsch (Aug 30, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Quick question to css owners, do you use CSS solely or layer it with other strings libraries?


I often layer other strings libs with CSS! As mentioned CSSS has been the no-brainer layering lib, but I also often layer with Adagio/Agitato if I need shorts with more bite or schmaltzier legatos. I also really love the sound of Tokyo Scoring Strings violins layered with CSS, for a little more intimacy and detail.

For example - CSS (previous version, not 1.7) is the backbone of the strings here, but I'm also layering in Adagio shorts, Agitato Violin legatos and Agitato Cello con sord legatos on some exposed passages, TSS violin 1 layered in to add air to a few of the melodic phrases in the first half, etc. There's even some CS2 pizz layered in there!


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## Loerpert (Aug 30, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Wow is that your own composition? Beautiful


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## muk (Aug 30, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> Wow is that your own composition? Beautiful


Yes it is. Thank you Loerpert!


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## Go To 11 (Aug 30, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Stunning piece! Loved listening to this.


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## David Chappell (Aug 30, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Quick question to css owners, do you use CSS solely or layer it with other strings libraries?


My current preferences (pre-1.7) are layering with vista for longs/ legato, and with fluid shorts or LASS for shorts. Not yet downloaded 1.7 to see if I might change but I'm really liking the new sound from all these examples


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## muk (Aug 30, 2022)

Go To 11 said:


> Stunning piece! Loved listening to this.


Thank you @Go To 11! Very kind of you.


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## filipjonathan (Aug 30, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Oh my goodness 🥺


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## ryans (Aug 30, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


I really prefer the original. Darker, more somber tone for this piece.

But.. this may not be fair because you originally composed with the first version.


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## muk (Aug 30, 2022)

filipjonathan said:


> Oh my goodness 🥺


Sorry, don't quite get your meaning. Had enough of this piece? 😂



ryans said:


> But.. this may not be fair because you originally composed with the first version.



Not quite. I composed with paper and pencil, without a sample library in mind. CSS just happened to be really strong for this kind of music.
But the comparison is done the way @Alex W said you shouldn't do it: it's the same midi data, without any changes for v1.7. Makes the two more comparable, but the v1.7 version may sound better if the midi was massaged for it the way I did for the original version. In that way you are absolutely right, the comparison does put the original version at an advantage.

The difference in tone, that's exactly what should be shown with this comparison. v1.7 does sound brighter and crisper than the original mix.


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## FireGS (Aug 30, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Here's a really quick sketch of just vib legato to compare the sound.
> 
> New version to my ear sounds way more open and alive, and much of the classic CSS hiss is gone. Love it. Can't wait to explore more.
> 
> I've also included CSSS of the same piece just for the hell of it.


Holy bass phasing, batman.


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## filipjonathan (Aug 30, 2022)

muk said:


> Sorry, don't quite get your meaning. Had enough of this piece? 😂


It's freakin beautiful!!


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## muk (Aug 30, 2022)

filipjonathan said:


> It's freakin beautiful!!


Wow, thank you Filip!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 30, 2022)

I prefer the previous CSS version in all the examples so far.

It’s like there is some emotional quality gone missing in version 1.7.

Something also sounds a bit strange with the v 1.7 sound overall - hard to explain.


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## Jackdnp121 (Aug 30, 2022)

still prefer the original playability for slow passage … especially the expressive legato mode 
It seems smoother …. But Maybe I’m just not used to the new script ... however still appreciate Alex for the hard work …. thanks mate !


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## muziksculp (Aug 30, 2022)




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## Scamper (Aug 30, 2022)

Finally after 10 hours my download is done.
I was very curious to compare the out-of-the-box sound of the old and new mix mics. So here are some mini demos with various articulations to showcase that. Really like the roomier and clearer sound of the new version.



1.7 also seems to be louder now by about 3dB. Regarding the balance of articulations, the legatos are also louder than before, compared to the shorts. Also the marcato - REALLY loud now and it seems to have a longer release tail(?).

The low latency legato is really playable though and I just love the marcato patch now with the blurry runs. Only the spiccato overlay can seem a bit quiet (now that the spiccatos aren't layered with staccatissimo anymore) compared to before, but that's alright.


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## Zedcars (Aug 30, 2022)

I don’t even own CSS and even _I’m_ excited for this update!


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## muziksculp (Aug 30, 2022)

Scamper said:


> Finally after 10 hours my download is done.


10 Hrs ? !


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Aug 30, 2022)

Jackdnp121 said:


> still prefer the original playability for slow passage … especially the expressive legato mode
> It seems smoother …. But Maybe I’m just not used to the new script ... however still appreciate Alex for the hard work …. thanks mate !


I agree. Unfortunately, I notice it too. Slow legato is not so smooth in the new version. The original version already had everything great with the slow legato, there was no need to change anything there.


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## Scamper (Aug 30, 2022)

Playing the new and old legatos side by side, there is something about the old, that I prefer. Even the old standard legato is slower and has more slur to it, which I kind of like, but all in all, I probably still prefer the more playable legato now.



muziksculp said:


> 10 Hrs ? !


An act of patience, every time.


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## Sunny Schramm (Aug 30, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I prefer the previous CSS version in all the examples so far.
> 
> It’s like there is some emotional quality gone missing in version 1.7.
> 
> Something also sounds a bit strange with the v 1.7 sound overall - hard to explain.


Same here. If I have to describe it: 1.5 sounds more lush to me. It has more guts and much more romantic emotions in the sound. Maybe there is less vibrato in the new version by default? (just speaking for the ensemble sustains and legato)


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## Scamper (Aug 30, 2022)

The vibrato is the same now, except it works better.
Apart from the changes of all the articulations, I got the impression that the change of the sound just applies to the mix mic, doesn't it? So with a custom balance, as it was before, couldn't you just get pretty much the old sound?

I get the feeling what made it a bit more magical and smoother before was for one, the sound, which was less clear and duller in the old version and also the hiss as a sort of glue, which is now gone.
Those things, I don't miss though and I think with a dose of reverb, this might also be better.

Same with the spiccatos, that end pretty abruptly now. CSB and CSW are the same, but with a bit of reverb, this is a non issue.


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## Sunny Schramm (Aug 30, 2022)

Scamper said:


> The vibrato is the same now, except it works better.
> Apart from the changes of all the articulations, I got the impression that the change of the sound just applies to the mix mic, doesn't it? So with a custom balance, as it was before, couldn't you just get the old sound?
> 
> I get the feeling what made it a bit more magical and smoother before was for one, the sound, which was less clear and duller in the old version and also the hiss as a sort of glue, which is now gone.


That could be. Sadly I deleted 1.5 because I thought the sound would be the same - just better scripting and playability - I learned my lesson 🙄🙈


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## lettucehat (Aug 30, 2022)

de-noising 👀


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> 10 Hrs ? !


I've been downloading for 12 hours now and I still have 6½ to go


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## liquidlino (Aug 30, 2022)

Ian Dorsch said:


> I often layer other strings libs with CSS! As mentioned CSSS has been the no-brainer layering lib, but I also often layer with Adagio/Agitato if I need shorts with more bite or schmaltzier legatos. I also really love the sound of Tokyo Scoring Strings violins layered with CSS, for a little more intimacy and detail.
> 
> For example - CSS (previous version, not 1.7) is the backbone of the strings here, but I'm also layering in Adagio shorts, Agitato Violin legatos and Agitato Cello con sord legatos on some exposed passages, TSS violin 1 layered in to add air to a few of the melodic phrases in the first half, etc. There's even some CS2 pizz layered in there!



Phenomenal! And even better when watched with the unreal demo.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Aug 30, 2022)

Scamper said:


> The vibrato is the same now, except it works better.
> Apart from the changes of all the articulations, I got the impression that the change of the sound just applies to the mix mic, doesn't it? So with a custom balance, as it was before, couldn't you just get pretty much the old sound?
> 
> I get the feeling what made it a bit more magical and smoother before was for one, the sound, which was less clear and duller in the old version and also the hiss as a sort of glue, which is now gone.
> ...


My guess is what probably affects perception the most. The scripts for legato have been changed, now they work differently. Transitions during intervals seem to sound quieter, they have become less pronounced. And on the interface, the inscription (slow or medium) temporarily disappears during intervals, this does not happen in the original.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 30, 2022)




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## Stardog24 (Aug 30, 2022)

Pier-V said:


> Thank you for doing the conversion this way, this is probably the most helpful approach during this first phase. Alex wasn't joking when he said 1.7 mics have a roomier sound! For this mock-up, I think I prefer the original version, mainly because the main melody tends to disappear towards the beginning, but after what I've heard from other examples I'm sure that the right tweaking will solve this issue in the blink of an eye.


For sure. This was sketched up on 1.5 whilst I waited for the last 15% of my download to finish, and I would definitely massage the dynamics.

I also miss the hiss in terms of what I’m used to hearing. Adding a little noise floor back in would add some realism back in, but without the lumpiness of the old CSS noise stacking up in denser arrangements.


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## Scamper (Aug 30, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> My guess is what probably affects perception the most. The scripts for legato have been changed, now they work differently. Transitions during intervals seem to sound quieter, they have become less pronounced. And on the interface, the inscription (slow or medium) temporarily disappears during intervals, this does not happen in the original.


True, the legato transitions are a tad quieter now. I don't get that disappearing legato label on the interface though. Is this just with some patches?

Another thing I noticed, when comparing the playability is the velocity response for the short notes. In the old version, the low end of dynamics seemed to have a larger range of velocity, which made it easier to control. Now the velocity response curve feels more linear, but maybe that's just something to get used to.


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## FireGS (Aug 30, 2022)

No, but for real, whats up with the majority of the posts here with really negative phase correlation, esp with basses...?


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## liquidlino (Aug 30, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Beautiful. And part of what's keeping it bright and airy, is the arrangement - I too have been learning to keep it all out of the muddy range, especially with CSS, because that lovely CSS warmth and fullness can come at a price if not careful. Good four/five part harmonies are essential, with lots of space between bass line and rest of instruments. This sounds so lovely, great control of the dynamics to really tug those heart strings.


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## liquidlino (Aug 30, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Quick question to css owners, do you use CSS solely or layer it with other strings libraries?


Nowhere near as good as some of the examples so far on this thread, but I just bought Synchron Strings Pro (SSP) and just downloaded CSS update. I was working on this little exercise last night as a way of getting familiar with SSP workflow and setting up template, reaticulate etc. So three ways below, on their own and then layered. Also features OT Ronroco and the new free MG Sweet Uke from Pianobook, and the Tubes Isolation Piano from pianobook.

SSP Only
View attachment 2022-08-30 SSP Try-out.2022-08-30 23_08_08.mp3

CSS Only
View attachment 2022-08-30 SSP Try-out in CSS.2022-08-31 10_04_35.mp3

Layered
View attachment 2022-08-30 SSP Try-out.2022-08-31 11_45_57 CSS+SSP.mp3

EDIT: Updated the layered version, CSS was too quiet in the mix, and V1 was too quiet - bumped up the velocities on V1.


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## Kevperry777 (Aug 30, 2022)

Scamper said:


> The vibrato is the same now, except it works better.
> Apart from the changes of all the articulations, I got the impression that the change of the sound just applies to the mix mic, doesn't it? So with a custom balance, as it was before, couldn't you just get pretty much the old sound?
> 
> I get the feeling what made it a bit more magical and smoother before was for one, the sound, which was less clear and duller in the old version and also the hiss as a sort of glue, which is now gone.
> ...


Agreed. 1.7 is less “furry” but there is a bit of air gone with the denoising. However the tone comes through more. It sounds great- but not necessarily better than 1.5. Just different. Feels like I’ll use a touch more reverb with 1.7.


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## Alex W (Aug 30, 2022)

Hey folks, some very nice examples in here, keep it up! Love your mockups, Noam - thanks a lot for posting. 

Guys, I need to stress this point: taking an old piece and subbing out the old patches for the new ones is a misleading comparison. CSS v1.5 will win in all of those cases, hands down - because the piece was written for 1.5, but that does not mean that 1.5 is therefore better.

CSSv1.7 may use the same original recordings as 1.5, but there are so many subtle differences between the two, and these differences compound very quickly, resulting in a completely different sounding "performance" of the piece. Every choice you make while composing - every little movement of the modwheel, the legato speed, the dynamics, timing etc - these choices are all based on what you're hearing while you're recording a passage. What you're hearing in the violins part will directly influence how you then perform the cello parts, the viola parts, and so on. It's an extremely important aspect of the composing process, and yet it is being completely bypassed in these comparisons.

It hasn't even been 24 hours yet, so please try to resist jumping to any conclusions. It's a deep library, and will require a brief period of adjustment so that you can learn to appreciate and benefit from the countless subtle improvements. Try this: do some experimenting with the spot mics, customise your own mix, then try writing some brand new music with the low-latency legato, new marcato, new spiccatos etc. Give it a few days, I'm confident that you'll come to see how much better it is.

If, after working with the new version for a while and creating some new music with it, you still prefer the original version, of course you are very welcome to keep using that. I'm just encouraging you to give 1.7 a fair go first.

-Alex


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## ka00 (Aug 30, 2022)

Anyone care to mock this up with CSS 1.7?


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## holywilly (Aug 30, 2022)

I really miss the "Classic Legato Patch", should also included in 1.7.


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## muziksculp (Aug 30, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I really miss the "Classic Legato Patch", should also included in 1.7.


I noticed the 'Classic Leg. Patch' was not mentioned/included in 1.7, although it wasn't the patch that many users praise a lot for its legato, or use it much. It was mostly the Standard, and the Advanced Legatos that were the stars of the legato in 1.5 .


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## muziksculp (Aug 30, 2022)

I plan to delete CSS 1.5 and install CSS 1.7 when I'm back in my studio in a few days from now.

I don't need 1.5, and like everything That 1.7 offers, and would most likely use the low-latency mode most of the time. Something 1.5 didn't deliver. Listening to Alex W.'s demos, and video I really like the sound of the new Marcato, and shorts much more than ver 1.5. The legatos sound very very good in 1.7


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 30, 2022)

Sunny Schramm said:


> Same here. If I have to describe it: 1.5 sounds more lush to me. It has more guts and much more romantic emotions in the sound. Maybe there is less vibrato in the new version by default? (just speaking for the ensemble sustains and legato)


It absolutely sounds more lush and romantic, and coherent too IMO. That sweetness in the sound in 1.5 is so beautiful!

Edit:
Posted this before reading Alex’ comment above


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## Trash Panda (Aug 30, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It absolutely sounds more lush and romantic, and coherent too IMO. That sweetness in the sound in 1.5 is so beautiful!


Ah yes. The sweet sweet sound of snakes defending their territory.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 30, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Ah yes. The sweet sweet sound of snakes defending their territory.


Not at all  I like a lot of what I’ve heard of 1.7 so far.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 30, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Not at all  I like a lot of what I’ve heard of 1.7 so far.


You were talking about how sweet and beautiful v1.5, aka Hissytown, Population: SSSSSSSSS sounded in your post. 

I much prefer v1.7 because it didn’t cause me to look for the pair of fangs ready to end my life when I hear it.


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## Casiquire (Aug 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> 10 Hrs ? !


(25 minutes here 😯)


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 30, 2022)

I don't get the focus on the low latency mode. IMO it doesn't compare to the mode with the full transitions when comparing, at least for some things I play.
There is such a distinct change of sound happening before the actual transition. I'm not a string player but I think they stop playing vibrato before changing the note... figure you can't vibrate when you switch to another note - so the vibrato drops before the interval. Which is nicely captured in the full/expressive mode but cut away in the low latency mode. There is just no time for the full interval with that change to play out.
Of course it can be a problem when playing faster but for that it has shorter legato time when ramping of the velocities.
I only hope that future string projects will still come with the full intervals as option rather than succumbing to the universal lazyness of users wanting something that requires zero effort to use, even if it's just some amount of delay, which anyone learning an actual instrument would probably laugh about if that's the only challenge.
Although it's actually not that little delay either. 

Well I'm glad it's still there so everyone can use what they want. But when this mode has now become kind of a sidekick it might have received less care than it should, but I haven't really played yet so it's just a concern. Mostly just meant to leave an overall comment on the backwards trend leading away from what IMO is the main quality of CSS and almost unique in the sample world legato-wise, except maybe 2-3 other libraries.




AceAudioHQ said:


> I've been downloading for 12 hours now and I still have 6½ to go





Scamper said:


> Finally after 10 hours my download is done.


If not tried yet I'd recommend to call the provider and let them reset the connection. That can resolve speed issues. Mine was ridiculously slow. After a robot reset the connection it was as fast as it gets all the time.


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## muziksculp (Aug 30, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> (25 minutes here 😯)


That's very fast given it's Native Access. Did you use NA1, or NA2 ? 

Thanks


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 30, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> You were talking about how sweet and beautiful v1.5, aka Hissytown, Population: SSSSSSSSS sounded in your post.
> 
> I much prefer v1.7 because it didn’t cause me to look for the pair of fangs ready to end my life when I hear it.


We like what we like as individuals. Taste differs.


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## Stardog24 (Aug 30, 2022)

Ok. Finally had a chance to properly sit down and play with it.

Nothing particularly polished, but had a play with a lot of the new features. The new mixing opportunities are excellent. You can bring a lot more focus to an ostinato with those spot mics.

Maybe too much focus. Dunno. Just playing. 

This also has a touch of seventh heaven over the top of it and some eq.

View attachment StringActionThing.mp3


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## erikradbo (Aug 31, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Ok. Finally had a chance to properly sit down and play with it.
> 
> Nothing particularly polished, but had a play with a lot of the new features. The new mixing opportunities are excellent. You can bring a lot more focus to an ostinato with those spot mics.
> 
> ...


Great work!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 31, 2022)

Because of the new version of CSS, for the next 3 months everybody's gonna post music with string runs in it!


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## Igorianych (Aug 31, 2022)

Fantastic!


Stardog24 said:


> Ok. Finally had a chance to properly sit down and play with it.
> 
> Nothing particularly polished, but had a play with a lot of the new features. The new mixing opportunities are excellent. You can bring a lot more focus to an ostinato with those spot mics.
> 
> ...


it sounds very elegant!
I hope it will be apropriate to kindly ask you upload your midi file
i would like to analyze it!!!


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## Vik (Aug 31, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I agree. Unfortunately, I notice it too. Slow legato is not so smooth in the new version.


Since some of you have posted comments like that: instead of needing to find the best way to keep 1.6 after having installed 1.7, it would be great if this could be solved in a different way. 

I certainly want to install 1.7 due to all the goodies, but also want the option to use the 'legacy legato', if it's correct that it offered something for slow passages which 1.7 doesn't – or at least doesn't do in the same way as we are used to. Would it be possible to an extra legato preset in a not-too-distant future? That would solve a lot of problems (eg less need to juggle between two versions with all that implies). I wouldn't at all mind if this was done with the new version of the samples, so no need to keep the samples from 1.7 and earlier.

This isn't only about CSS – I've seen similar situations with other libraries as well, which also could be solved by keeping (recreating) the legacy/previous version as an extra preset. 

Maybe the same could be done for those who also want access to the layered spiccatto/staccato articulation from earlier versions.


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## Tremendouz (Aug 31, 2022)

Vik said:


> Since some of you have posted comments like that: instead of needing to find the best way to keep 1.6 after having installed 1.7, it would be great if this could be solved in a different way.
> 
> I certainly want to install 1.7 due to all the goodies, but also want the option to use the 'legacy legato', if it's correct that it offered something for slow passages which 1.7 doesn't – or at least doesn't do in the same way as we are used to. Would it be possible to an extra legato preset in a not-too-distant future? That would solve a lot of problems (eg less need to juggle between two versions with all that implies). I wouldn't at all mind if this was done with the new version of the samples, so no need to keep the samples from 1.7 and earlier.
> 
> ...


As far as I understand, it's not a matter of simply having different legato scripting but the samples itself have been edited and processed differently (including the denoising of the main and room mics).

So, you'd probably need a lot of duplicate samples to get the old legato back which would then bloat the library size on disk further which isn't practical either.


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## Stardog24 (Aug 31, 2022)

Igorianych said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> it sounds very elegant!
> I hope it will be apropriate to kindly ask you upload your midi file
> i would like to analyze it!!!


Thank you kindly.

As for the MIDI, you are most welcome to it.


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 31, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> If not tried yet I'd recommend to call the provider and let them reset the connection. That can resolve speed issues. Mine was ridiculously slow. After a robot reset the connection it was as fast as it gets all the time.


I live in the middle of the forest, I have a 4G connection with an external antenna, so 30mbps at night is the best I can get (from my 200mbps connection)


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## tc9000 (Aug 31, 2022)

MI Fallout excerpt (from the MIDI that was released by Lorne Balfe). Completely dry, no FX, no reverb, nothing on the master buss. The shorts are all spiccato, mostly violins with a bit of viola.

View attachment MI Fallout Excerpt CSS 1.7.mp3


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## RogiervG (Aug 31, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> I live in the middle of the forest, I have a 4G connection with an external antenna, so 30mbps at night is the best I can get (from my 200mbps connection)


see you in a week


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## babylonwaves (Aug 31, 2022)

Vik said:


> I wouldn't at all mind if this was done with the new version of the samples, so no need to keep the samples from 1.7 and earlier.


so, in essence, you get a new and better library free of charge, and now you want them to spend extra time assembling the old and the new into a hybrid because it's more convenient for you. Although there is an easy workaround to have both?


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## Vik (Aug 31, 2022)

I'm only asking if the idea I mentioned is a possible option for the future, babylonwaves. I certainly didn't expect them to offer all they did with 1.7 in a free update, and I don't expect them to do anything for free – or paid – just because it would be more convenient for some of us.

Edit: when we add legacy or other former versions of stuff for reason like that (they already take up some space on my main drive), workarounds aren't always that easy, but again: I don't (and didn't) expect any of this.


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## Sovereign (Aug 31, 2022)

ka00 said:


> Anyone care to mock this up with CSS 1.7?



Here's a quick and simplified version done in one take (strings only) to get an idea what it sounds like with CSS.


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## jules (Aug 31, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Gorgeous !


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## Batuer (Aug 31, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Ok. Finally had a chance to properly sit down and play with it.
> 
> Nothing particularly polished, but had a play with a lot of the new features. The new mixing opportunities are excellent. You can bring a lot more focus to an ostinato with those spot mics.
> 
> ...


This is awesome!


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 31, 2022)

It seems I'm unable to add to Kontakt after I've added the new one. It keeps looking for the new one and says it's not the right library when trying to add the old one. Doesn't even work with the backup where I'm fairly certain I didn't do anything except copying it to that place. It also has the nicnt file. 
Would be pretty burned if I'd want to go back to the old now.

I managed put the nkis of the old version in the instrument folder of the new version into a folder called "old css". Then resaved those when showing the missing samples notification but with the samples of the old version, in a different location.

Seems to work now, the new version loads its own samples and the old patches load the samples from a different direction. 

However it doesn't work when recalling projects because it looks for the old nkis which are away in the "old css" folder. 
But it also doesn't work when putting them in the normal instrument folder so they are in the expected place and the new version in a "new css" folder because Kontakt still looks for the files in the folder that is added to Native Access. Maybe I'll try putting the old samples into the new folder to resolve this but I'm tired of experimenting and everything I do seems to break things further. 

Well, at least it seems to work for creating new projects. In all old projects I'll have to relocate the files with the missing samples bubble :( 
Since I can't add the old version anymore I can't do it the other way around and keep the new versions in a dedicated folder instead while keeping the old one intact.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Aug 31, 2022)

I really love this smooth slow legato in Advanced mode in version 1.5, especially on low and medium dynamic range. Melodic phrases with it are very noticeably expressive not only for long but also for short notes (fast performance in slow legato mode worked). There in legato, at the level of refinement, there was no need to change anything in script programming, it was perfect. Absolutely satisfied with the sound in the new version, but now it seems that this expressive performance with a slow legato for medium and moderately fast performance intensity has disappeared (this is not related to sound and hissing). In version 1.7, it feels like legato has started to be left out. As soon as you exceed some limit in the speed of performance, in the slow legato mode, the intervals begin to sink a little or shut up, not to reveal themselves completely in their singing.

CSS 1.5 Legato Speed Slow
View attachment CSS 1.5 legato slow_01.mp3

CSS 1.7 Legato Speed Slow
View attachment CSS 1.7 legato slow_01.mp3


There is a suspicion that something is broken in the script and this should not be the case.

CSS 1.5 Legato Speed Slow
View attachment CSS 1.5 legato slow_02.mp3

CSS 1.7 Legato Speed Slow
View attachment CSS 1.7 legato slow_02.mp3


Edit:
And so, using the *sustain pedal(CC 64)*, this unpleasant glitch with the break of legato disappears. But as soon as the pedal is turned off, the legato breaks again, only in places of faster performance. I hope @Alex W can fix it. Since the slow legato itself seems to work well, but only with a sustain pedal.

CSS 1.7 Legato Speed Slow + pedal sustain(CC 64)
View attachment CSS 1.7 legato slow_02+sus pedal.mp3


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## ka00 (Aug 31, 2022)

Sovereign said:


> Here's a quick and simplified version done in one take (strings only) to get an idea what it sounds like with CSS.


Thanks for doing this, Sovereign! They definitely have very different tones. Both are very expressive and the legato is handled well in both.


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## Spid (Aug 31, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> I've been downloading for 12 hours now and I still have 6½ to go


Damn... I feel so privileged now to download it in 20mn with my 2Gbps Fiber, I almost forgot what it was on slow lines.

I wish everyone could access to fast internet, it makes not only life easier, but it opens the door to more connectivity, more streaming, more download, all that in the same time. I very often watch something in streaming while downloading libraries, while someone else might be playing games and the internet doesn't move the needle, it's rock solid... It definitely changed my life since I'm 24/7 on the internet. And luckily internet here in France is quite cheap in comparison to what I was paying the US... it's like 40 or 45 bucks a month for the 2Gbps Fiber. As said, I feel very privileged.


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## Stardog24 (Aug 31, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I really love this smooth slow legato in Advanced mode in version 1.5, especially on low and medium dynamic range. Melodic phrases with it are very noticeably expressive not only for long but also for short notes (fast performance in slow legato mode worked). There in legato, at the level of refinement, there was no need to change anything in script programming, it was perfect. Absolutely satisfied with the sound in the new version, but now it seems that this expressive performance with a slow legato for medium and moderately fast performance intensity has disappeared (this is not related to sound and hissing). In version 1.7, it feels like legato has started to be left out. As soon as you exceed some limit in the speed of performance, in the slow legato mode, the intervals begin to sink a little or shut up, not to reveal themselves completely in their singing.
> 
> CSS 1.5 Legato Speed Slow
> View attachment CSS 1.5 legato slow_01.mp3
> ...


Very strange. I played in the same lines to 1.7 and didn't have that issue (tried all possible variations of the legato at all speeds and dynamic layers.)

But I certainly agree that the legato in the recording you uploaded definitely isn't cutting the mustard.

I wonder what's causing it. 🤷‍♂️


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## Spid (Aug 31, 2022)

Maybe I'm completely wrong here, but when I upgraded to 1.7, I reopened my Template that still had 1.5 and when I wanted to test, Kontakt was asking for some sample files, I had to point again to the right folder, but then it loaded but it was indicating a "script error" message in the bottom... probably not loaded correctly. I removed the library and reloaded again and then it was fine. So maybe by loading an old project, it doesn't load properly the new 1.7 and maybe there's a script error...

As said, it's just pure speculation, I'm not a script expert here... I just saw the message, unload, reload and it was gone, so I thought about it when reading your comments.

I hope it could help


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## muk (Aug 31, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Beautiful. And part of what's keeping it bright and airy, is the arrangement - I too have been learning to keep it all out of the muddy range, especially with CSS, because that lovely CSS warmth and fullness can come at a price if not careful. Good four/five part harmonies are essential, with lots of space between bass line and rest of instruments. This sounds so lovely, great control of the dynamics to really tug those heart strings.


Thank you liquidlino. Dynamics are a very good point. I feel CSS reacts very nicely to cc1 changes. Feels very natural to me, and that makes CSS extremely playable. This helps a lot in achieving a good sounding mockup.



jules said:


> Gorgeous !


Thank you @jules, I appreciate it!


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## Stardog24 (Aug 31, 2022)

So two things. First of all re: loading up 1.5, I've had huge success just dragging the instrument nki's from the file browser. Had both 1.7 and 1.5 running simultaneously in Logic with no dramas at all. Heaps easier than renaming, and I now have both versions sitting side by side in my template. 

Also, in the sake of fairness, I did that thing that Alex keeps telling us not to do in reverse and ran the piece I wrote in 1.7 through 1.5. Ouch. 

1.5
View attachment StringActionThing-OLD.mp3


1.7
View attachment StringActionThing.mp3


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Aug 31, 2022)

And so, using the *sustain pedal(CC 64)*, this unpleasant glitch with the break of legato disappears. But as soon as the pedal is turned off, the legato breaks again, only in places of faster performance. I hope Alex can fix it. Since the slow legato itself seems to work well, but only with a sustain pedal.

CSS 1.7 Legato Speed Slow + pedal sustain(CC 64)
View attachment CSS 1.7 legato slow_02+sus pedal.mp3


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## Instrugramm (Aug 31, 2022)

I'm still waiting with the download, from the examples I heard so far, I prefered 1.5 but I will stay open minded until I fiddled with 1.7 myself. In any case I feel like having both will probably be the way to go, shorts definitely profit from being clearer sounding while the slightly muffled 1.5 legato is still among the best in the business. 
Great work Alex, I congratulate you on the release!


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## Scamper (Aug 31, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> There is a suspicion that something is broken in the script and this should not be the case.


Ah, now I see what you mean with the legato label on the interface, that shortly disappears during the transition. 
I get this too and the legato bug, but it only appears with the expressive mode, using slow legato transitions in quick succession. Not the most common combination, but I also hope this can be fixed.


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## RogiervG (Aug 31, 2022)

Sovereign said:


> Here's a quick and simplified version done in one take (strings only) to get an idea what it sounds like with CSS.


just to clarify: this is solely css 1.7, or is there another library in play?


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## jooba (Aug 31, 2022)

Spid said:


> Damn... I feel so privileged now to download it in 20mn with my 2Gbps Fiber, I almost forgot what it was on slow lines.
> 
> I wish everyone could access to fast internet, it makes not only life easier, but it opens the door to more connectivity, more streaming, more download, all that in the same time. I very often watch something in streaming while downloading libraries, while someone else might be playing games and the internet doesn't move the needle, it's rock solid... It definitely changed my life since I'm 24/7 on the internet. And luckily internet here in France is quite cheap in comparison to what I was paying the US... it's like 40 or 45 bucks a month for the 2Gbps Fiber. As said, I feel very privileged.


I have also Fiber in Belgium but it's limited to 1Gbps. But I'm happy with that speed.
Nice demo's here. Thanks for that.


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## Sovereign (Aug 31, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> just to clarify: this is solely css 1.7, or is there another library in play?


Just 1.7.


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## TomaeusD (Aug 31, 2022)

A couple things I've run into so far @Alex W:

There's a sample glitch in both ensemble patches of 1.7 for A0 where the release of the basses takes from the cellos of C1.

CSS 1.7 Ensemble Bass Release
View attachment CSS1_7-ensembleglitch.mp3


CSS 1.5 Ensemble Bass Release
View attachment CSS1_5-ensembleglitch.mp3


And not necessarily a bug, but the marcato patch now requires CC1 modulation to get any velocity dynamics for the spiccato overlay.

CSS 1.5 Marcato Fanfare
View attachment CSS1_5-fanfaretest.mp3


CSS 1.7 Marcato Fanfare
View attachment CSS1_7-fanfaretest.mp3


No midi swapping. I'll definitely be keeping 1.5 for writing this sort of stuff (and for the old tone and legato) unless 1.7+ gets an additional "Beefy Spiccato Overlay" button for those added dynamics and ease of play.  But I wouldn't anticipate changes to how standard marcato works in 1.7 because my guess is the lack of spiccato dynamics in velocity (and spiccato doesn't engage with a quick legato) is what allows the runs to blend so well.

Besides these things, I'm seriously loving 1.7. Alex and team should be proud of what's been accomplished here!


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## Tremendouz (Aug 31, 2022)

Here's another one, if someone still has 1.5 and wants to run it through my crappy MIDI for another unfair comparison but reversed (1.7 MIDI to 1.5 and not vice versa).

I already took care of moving the legato on/off keyswitch to where it was in 1.5. Default mics. Expressive/Advanced legato.

EDIT: In 1.7, porta velocity threshold is 10 so adjust that if needed


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 31, 2022)

Tremendouz said:


> Here's another one, if someone still has 1.5 and wants to run it through my crappy MIDI for another unfair comparison but reversed (1.7 MIDI to 1.5 and not vice versa).
> 
> I already took care of moving the legato on/off keyswitch to where it was in 1.5. Default mics. Expressive/Advanced legato.


Beautiful!


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

This might be useful for those who want to keep, and use both CSS 1.5 and 1.7


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## Batrawi (Aug 31, 2022)

@TomaeusD @Vladimir Bulaev thx for spotting these bugs, I hope you've reported those to CS support as well assuming Alex may likely miss them here with too much goin' on between both threads


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## Juulu (Aug 31, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Ok. Finally had a chance to properly sit down and play with it.
> 
> Nothing particularly polished, but had a play with a lot of the new features. The new mixing opportunities are excellent. You can bring a lot more focus to an ostinato with those spot mics.
> 
> ...


That was awesome! Can I ask what mix settings you used? I really like the sound, especially the low-string shorts.


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 31, 2022)

Spid said:


> Damn... I feel so privileged now to download it in 20mn with my 2Gbps Fiber, I almost forgot what it was on slow lines.


I used to have a fast connection when I still lived in an apartment building in the city, but after I moved into the forest my only options are 4G and 5G connections, I have a 200mbps 4G connection at the moment, at daytime it’s anything from 12 to 20mbps, at night it’s a bit faster, from 28 to 35mbps. The fastest 5G you can get here is 600mbps but it needs a more expensive antenna installation and costs way more to use.

I’m actually ok with the slow internet, except when I have to download large libraries, or UVI updates (since their updates are always the whole library again instead of a single small file with the fix like with real companies) and It would be nice if I paid for a 30mbps connection since that’s the max speed I can get here but the service provider of course bills me the full amount.


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## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Beautiful work. You had me almost crying (not joking). Well done!


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## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

Ian Dorsch said:


> I often layer other strings libs with CSS! As mentioned CSSS has been the no-brainer layering lib, but I also often layer with Adagio/Agitato if I need shorts with more bite or schmaltzier legatos. I also really love the sound of Tokyo Scoring Strings violins layered with CSS, for a little more intimacy and detail.
> 
> For example - CSS (previous version, not 1.7) is the backbone of the strings here, but I'm also layering in Adagio shorts, Agitato Violin legatos and Agitato Cello con sord legatos on some exposed passages, TSS violin 1 layered in to add air to a few of the melodic phrases in the first half, etc. There's even some CS2 pizz layered in there!



Would love to see the reverb processing you used there. Great job!


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## rlundv (Aug 31, 2022)

Hey, could anyone help me test this:

Set dynamics control to CC2 on vi, vii and va and play a three note chord with notes assigned accordingly, that goes from 0-127. Use non-vib.

In my setup v2 kicks in at a higher volume from around 0-5 and then is balanced out when reaching 100.

Can anyone recreate this difference in their setup? I'm trying to use 1.7 with Divisimate, and when doing three-note chords like this, the volume-difference is very noticeable in the most quiet dynamic layer.


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## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Ok. Finally had a chance to properly sit down and play with it.
> 
> Nothing particularly polished, but had a play with a lot of the new features. The new mixing opportunities are excellent. You can bring a lot more focus to an ostinato with those spot mics.
> 
> ...


Awesome! I dig those shorts =)


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## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> MI Fallout excerpt (from the MIDI that was released by Lorne Balfe). Completely dry, no FX, no reverb, nothing on the master buss. The shorts are all spiccato, mostly violins with a bit of viola.
> 
> View attachment MI Fallout Excerpt CSS 1.7.mp3


I' m ready to take off =) Nice!


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## Ian Dorsch (Aug 31, 2022)

Igor Sena said:


> Would love to see the reverb processing you used there. Great job!


Thank you Igor! The reverb setup is really pretty bare bones - one instance of Cinematic Rooms and one instance of Valhalla Room for pretty much the entire mix. Other than that, it's mostly just dialing in mic mixes to taste and panning close mics where necessary. I'd need to double check the project but I think I also have one instance each of Valhalla Vintage Verb (for the choirs) and Blackhole (for color verb on a few exposed phrases).


----------



## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

Ian Dorsch said:


> Thank you Igor! The reverb setup is really pretty bare bones - one instance of Cinematic Rooms and one instance of Valhalla Room for pretty much the entire mix. Other than that, it's mostly just dialing in mic mixes to taste and panning close mics where necessary. I'd need to double check the project but I think I also have one instance each of Valhalla Vintage Verb (for the choirs) and Blackhole (for color verb on a few exposed phrases).


Hey, Ian! Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Did you use one for placing instruments in a room and the other for tail?

I'm always in love, not only with your compositions but with the sound signature you get. Really rings with me.


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## Dewdman42 (Aug 31, 2022)

Am I going to get an email or something to get this upgrade?


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## mohsohsenshi (Aug 31, 2022)

rlundv said:


> Hey, could anyone help me test this:
> 
> Set dynamics control to CC2 on vi, vii and va and play a three note chord with notes assigned accordingly, that goes from 0-127. Use non-vib.
> 
> ...




I've found that the Violin 2 has a stronger accent when it kicks in, but I can't produce the volume jump in your example.

Here are my render files. Same note and CC1 data from 0-127.

CSS 1.7 Violin 1:

View attachment CSS 1.7 Violin 1.mp3


CSS 1.7 Violin 2:

View attachment CSS 1.7 Violin 2.mp3


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## muk (Aug 31, 2022)

Igor Sena said:


> Beautiful work. You had me almost crying (not joking). Well done!


Thank you for your kind words Igor! I'm glad you like it.


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## monochrome (Aug 31, 2022)

Ian Dorsch said:


> Thank you Igor! The reverb setup is really pretty bare bones - one instance of Cinematic Rooms and one instance of Valhalla Room for pretty much the entire mix. Other than that, it's mostly just dialing in mic mixes to taste and panning close mics where necessary. I'd need to double check the project but I think I also have one instance each of Valhalla Vintage Verb (for the choirs) and Blackhole (for color verb on a few exposed phrases).


also is the solo guitar real or a library? if so which one? and the flute as well?


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## Dirk Ehlert (Aug 31, 2022)

Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...

Would love to know which you like better?

Vista:

View attachment Intro_VISTA.mp3


CSS:

View attachment Intro_CSS.mp3


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Aug 31, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Thank you for the comparison! Never got warm to the original sound. Wow! I would always prefer the new mix. I guess it's now going to be on my wishlist... finally. :D

This shows how important it is to combine the right microphones. Not to say the other mix was wrong, but not to my taste. And to all who think that the original version is more lush or more emotional – it isn't. It's also always difficult to have an unbiased ear if you are acquainted to something. As far as I understand it's just the new mix, isn't it? Just find the right microphones. Maybe Alex could implement several mixes.


----------



## Robert_G (Aug 31, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> I've been downloading for 12 hours now and I still have 6½ to go


There must be slow internet still out there. I downloaded and installed in about 15 minutes.


----------



## AceAudioHQ (Aug 31, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> There must be slow internet still out there. I downloaded and installed in about 15 minutes.


Just finished downloading! only took two days


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 31, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


Vista by far. It sounds natural; the CSS version sounds weird/processed.

I realize why you’re making it this way, but it would be interesting to hear how CSS handles the example on CSS’ terms, i.e. by taking CSS 1.7 as is and then make the example sound as good as possible with that


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## Batrawi (Aug 31, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


I liked Vista better, but maybe it's just because it's designed to do those kind of passages effortlessly unlike CSS which would require more massaging


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## Ian Dorsch (Aug 31, 2022)

monochrome said:


> also is the solo guitar real or a library? if so which one? and the flute as well?


Solo guitar is real. The solo flute is (mostly) Cinematic Studio Winds. The more ethnic-sounding one is the trusty old Embertone Jubal Flute.



Igor Sena said:


> Hey, Ian! Thank you for taking the time to reply.
> 
> Did you use one for placing instruments in a room and the other for tail?
> 
> I'm always in love, not only with your compositions but with the sound signature you get. Really rings with me.


Ah, thanks, I really appreciate that! Yeah, I'm afraid the reverb thing is very unscientific. I used to try to dial in fancy spatial stuff, separate tails and reflections, etc, but I was never quite satisfied with the results. This setup is just two different-sounding hall verbs, applied at varying levels to the same material - the whole Jake Jackson "it doesn't sound quite right until there are two different reverbs on it" philosophy.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


CSS 1.7


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## Sunny Schramm (Aug 31, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


Definetely CSS for its clarity and much more detailed and silky sound where you can hear every instrument and their beautiful written lines. Vista sounds much to muddy and like a big mush to me.


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> There must be slow internet still out there. I downloaded and installed in about 15 minutes.


I'm guessing someone is going to post that they downloaded and installed in 15 seconds. Which will make your 15 minutes very slow.


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

Sunny Schramm said:


> Definetely CSS for its clarity and much more detailed and silky sound where you can hear every instrument and their beautiful written lines. Vista sounds much to muddy and like a big mush to me.


Exactly what I heard. Plus, there is more expressive transitions, and attacks of the notes in CSS 1.7 compared to Vista.


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## Ian Dorsch (Aug 31, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


I prefer the sound of the CSS violins here, but I might give Vista the edge with the low strings. I could just be reacting to the sound of the CSS spiccato overlay popping out of the texture on those lines...?


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## Soundbed (Aug 31, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


CSS for me (in these examples)

especially the violins


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I really love this smooth slow legato in Advanced mode in version 1.5, especially on low and medium dynamic range. Melodic phrases with it are very noticeably expressive not only for long but also for short notes (fast performance in slow legato mode worked). There in legato, at the level of refinement, there was no need to change anything in script programming, it was perfect. Absolutely satisfied with the sound in the new version, but now it seems that this expressive performance with a slow legato for medium and moderately fast performance intensity has disappeared (this is not related to sound and hissing). In version 1.7, it feels like legato has started to be left out. As soon as you exceed some limit in the speed of performance, in the slow legato mode, the intervals begin to sink a little or shut up, not to reveal themselves completely in their singing.
> 
> CSS 1.5 Legato Speed Slow
> View attachment CSS 1.5 legato slow_01.mp3
> ...


So, anyone else experiencing this legato issue, when not enabling the Sustain Pedal playing the legato transitions ? I haven't seen it mentioned by other users of CSS 1.7

@Vladimir Bulaev ,

Have you emailed CSS Support to report this issue, are you using the CSS 1.7 'Expressive Legato' mode in these demos ?

Thanks.


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## Michael_Picher (Aug 31, 2022)

Here are two tests I did after downloading v1.7 yesterday. First is a random doodle and the other is a mockup of a music cue from a previous iteration of Spaceship Earth, a ride at Walt Disney World.


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## Tremendouz (Aug 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> So, anyone else experiencing this legato issue, when not enabling the Sustain Pedal playing the legato transitions ? I haven't seen it mentioned by other users of CSS 1.7


I am experiencing this also with the slow legato at least.


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## Lazeez (Aug 31, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And so, using the *sustain pedal(CC 64)*, this unpleasant glitch with the break of legato disappears. But as soon as the pedal is turned off, the legato breaks again, only in places of faster performance. I hope Alex can fix it. Since the slow legato itself seems to work well, but only with a sustain pedal.
> 
> CSS 1.7 Legato Speed Slow + pedal sustain(CC 64)
> View attachment CSS 1.7 legato slow_02+sus pedal.mp3





Scamper said:


> Ah, now I see what you mean with the legato label on the interface, that shortly disappears during the transition.
> I get this too and the legato bug, but it only appears with the expressive mode, using slow legato transitions in quick succession. Not the most common combination, but I also hope this can be fixed.



Here's a video recording of the legato issue in action for the reference of whoever is interested:


The first playthrough is without the sustain pedal down (legato is wonky). The second is with the sustain pedal down (legato works perfectly). From what I can tell, it happens with slow legatos in expressive mode only.


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## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

Ian Dorsch said:


> Ah, thanks, I really appreciate that! Yeah, I'm afraid the reverb thing is very unscientific. I used to try to dial in fancy spatial stuff, separate tails and reflections, etc, but I was never quite satisfied with the results. This setup is just two different-sounding hall verbs, applied at varying levels to the same material - the whole Jake Jackson "it doesn't sound quite right until there are two different reverbs on it" philosophy.



Reverb always gets me frustrated. Checking Jake Jackson´s videos that i hadn't checked before about that same philosophy. 

Thank you very much for the reply, Ian.

P.S. If you ever create some sort of course or make some videos sharing your process, etc i would buy them/watch them all. Great stuff in your music.


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## Robert_G (Aug 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm guessing someone is going to post that they downloaded and installed in 15 seconds. Which will make your 15 minutes very slow.


True enough.....but there is rumor out there that many a composer like to work in a cabin in the woods far far away.....until they need to update their software of course...


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

Lazeez said:


> Here's a video recording of the legato issue in action for the reference of whoever is interested:
> 
> 
> The first playthrough is without the sustain pedal down (legato is wonky). The second is with the sustain pedal down (legato works perfectly). From what I can tell, it happens with slow legatos in expressive mode only.



Interesting. Thanks for posting this video showing the issue. 

Now, is the Sustain Pedal the way to enable the Legato transitions for the Expressive slow Legatos in ver 1.7 by design ? aren't the overlapping of the notes supposed to trigger the legato transitions automatically in 1.7 ? 

I'm just not sure if this is done by design, or it is a bug that needs to be fixed.


----------



## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Interesting. Thanks for posting this video showing the issue.
> 
> Now, is the Sustain Pedal the way to enable the Legato transitions for the Expressive slow Legatos in ver 1.7 by design ? aren't the overlapping of the notes supposed to trigger the legato transitions automatically in 1.7 ?
> 
> I'm just not sure if this is done by design, or it is a bug that needs to be fixed.


Alex made a comment on the oficial 1.7 update thread that he uses the sustain pedal to connect legato notes if i'm not mistaken. 

You can check the latest video he made showcasing the legato; the notes are not overlapping:



Maybe it's a bug or something that he forgot about and got programmed into the library somehow. I don't know, just speculation on what could be happening. I guess we will know soon. The man deserves his rest, altough by the looks of it, he will still have alot of work to do, specially considering how these threads are getting bigger and bigger. On the other hand, i'm sure he'll appreciate it because it shows the love people have for his products.


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 31, 2022)

I'm still pretty annoyed by a few resonating frequencies that are, at least to my ear, still very prominent in a few notes when you have the vibrato set to minimum on 1st violin and the full ensemble patch (lite ensemble not so much), I can't unhear it once I heard it originally, and it bothers me every time I play with CSS. Nobody else doesn't seem to mind or hear it. 

You can hear it in all the mics (especially spot 1) except spot mic 2, there's one tone that is the same for F3 and G3, and another that plays with F#3 and G#3. It disappears with a notch filter around 6642-6705hz on F#3 and G#3 and a semitone lower around 6632hz on F3 and G3. Also if you add some vibrato, it will drown the sound but it's still there.


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

Igor Sena said:


> Alex made a comment on the oficial 1.7 update thread that he uses the sustain pedal to connect legato notes if i'm not mistaken.


Yes, I recall that he mentioned using the Sustain Pedal, but I wonder why he had to use the sustain pedal if the notes were already overlapping ? or were they not overlapping ? a bit of a grey area here. 

But overlapping notes should 'normally' trigger the legato transitions, without the need to press down the sustain pedal.


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## NoamL (Aug 31, 2022)

Here's one more quick demo.

This time just the v1.7 standard mix, no effects (I'd love to add 7th Heaven!).



About note entrances. If you lower the velocity you will get the smoothest or 'most invisible' entrance on C0 sustains and legatos. The higher velocities are best for accents inside phrases at louder dynamics. I think either accents were added in v1.7 or else they're much stronger than in v1.5. Also: really explore those new vibrato crossfades. On the previous version I never touched the vibrato. But that controller now seems good for phrasing. Vibrato depth & speed is constantly changing in real performances so this is a welcome upgrade.


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## Lazeez (Aug 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Interesting. Thanks for posting this video showing the issue.
> 
> Now, is the Sustain Pedal the way to enable the Legato transitions for the Expressive slow Legatos in ver 1.7 by design ? aren't the overlapping of the notes supposed to trigger the legato transitions automatically in 1.7 ?
> 
> I'm just not sure if this is done by design, or it is a bug that needs to be fixed.


There are 2 ways to trigger legatos (in both 1.5 and 1.7):
1. Overlapping notes
2. Holding the sustain pedal down. Legato will be triggered regardless of whether the notes overlap or not. This also allows you to rebow the same note (sampled rebowing - which is really cool) but I digress.

This issue only surfaces under very specific conditions (all conditions need to be met):
1. Mode = Expressive
2. Legato Speed = Slow
3. Legato is being triggered via note overlap (as opposed to holding the sustain pedal down)
4. Playing speed (not note velocity, but actual playing speed) is fast(ish). A slow passage works fine. Its only when playing speed exceeds some threshold does the legato start to sound wonky.

Under any other conditions, legato in 1.7 works fine.

So for the time being, if one wants to play fast(ish) passages using expressive legato with slow legato transitions, then they would need to use the sustain pedal as opposed to overlapping notes.

Also, I tried these exact conditions in 1.5 and it works fine so this is an issue that's in 1.7 only.


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## Igor Sena (Aug 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I recall that he mentioned using the Sustain Pedal, but I wonder why he had to use the sustain pedal if the notes were already overlapping ? or were they not overlapping ? a bit of a grey area here.
> 
> But overlapping notes should 'normally' trigger the legato transitions, without the need to press down the sustain pedal.


I had to edit my post earlier because i forgot to add the video about the overlapping notes. Please check it now. In the legato section of the video the notes are not overlapping so he is indeed using the sustain pedal to connect those.


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

Lazeez said:


> There are 2 ways to trigger legatos (in both 1.5 and 1.7):
> 1. Overlapping notes
> 2. Holding the sustain pedal down. Legato will be triggered regardless of whether the notes overlap or not. This also allows you to rebow the same note (sampled rebowing - which is really cool) but I digress.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed explanation of when this issue happens in 1.7. 

Did you report this bug via email to their support ?


----------



## laudmusic (Aug 31, 2022)

So for those that have update to 1.7 and typically use track delay to compensate for the sample start latency, what are you using now? I still feel it needs a little something on the track delay front.


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## Soundbed (Aug 31, 2022)

This is an "unfair comparison" but I'll share it anyway.

First Pass = CSS 1.7
2nd Pass - MSS with my personal presets

View attachment CSS 1-7 and MSS.mp3


EDIT - And here is only MSS, with Violins 1 & 2 boosted in volume +5.4dB (the only change) which helps the mixes sound more similar.

View attachment MSS with Violins boosted +5.4dB.mp3


~

Random 3 chord legato phrases

All CSS 1.7 instruments are legato > expressive (slowest).
All Instrument sections use the same Mod wheel motion.

First is CSS, the second play is the same MIDI (oh no, the same MIDI 😲) with my custom MSS settings.

In CSS, I hear some "volume bumps" especially transitioning the third chord, which are not bad but I notice them. And the third chord's sustains seem to rise and fall (without my mod wheel changes).

It seems I tend to lower my violin volumes and turn up my violas and basses in MSS, relative to where the out of box mix mics place CSS, which probably represents my tastes. (The MSS basses are also very stereo in this raw audio, and I tend to mono that with a crossover in the mix later.)

If I were trying to make the two clips sound more similar, I'd start by boosting the MSS violins. (Added audio example above.)

Mod wheel phrases were quite "smooth," and not like Alex shows in some of the demos, where there's quick down up mod wheel motions for the transitions.


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## Soundbed (Aug 31, 2022)

laudmusic said:


> So for those that have update to 1.7 and typically use track delay to compensate for the sample start latency, what are you using now? I still feel it needs a little something on the track delay front.


From the updated notes docu:

"Low latency mode has a legato delay of approximately 150ms (but don’t hold me to it),
and replaces the outgoing “Standard” legato mode, which had a delay of 250ms, while
the new “Expressive” mode has replaced the outgoing “Advanced” mode. Expressive
mode is very similar to the former Advanced mode, and is mainly just a name change, but
it is still improved since the legato transitions themselves have been improved. Personally,
I recommend using the low latency mode for most work, as I’ve found that it hits the
sweet spot of realism and playability. However, Expressive mode still very much has its
place, especially for slower, more pastoral thematic material. Experimenting with both
modes will make it pretty clear as to which mode will work better for any given passage."

And from the manual, "The amount of delay is
determined by the velocity at which you play each new legato note. There are three
velocity zones: 0-64, 65-100, and 101-127, which correspond to three legato speeds
respectively: slow, medium and fast, as picture below.
Slow has the most delay, approximately 1/3 of a second (333ms), medium is about
1/4s (250ms), and fast has a small delay - approximately 100ms."

(pictures)

"[...] the above chart applies to
“Expressive” mode legato. If you switch to
“Low Latency,” there are just two speeds:
medium (150ms delay) and fast.
As previously mentioned the Low Latency mode is the easiest to use, and I
recommend using this mode for most work, as it hits the sweet spot of realism and
playability. However, Expressive mode still very much has its place, especially for
slower material. Experimenting with both modes will make it pretty clear as to which
mode will work better for any given passage."


----------



## Lazeez (Aug 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation of when this issue happens in 1.7.
> 
> Did you report this bug via email to their support ?


I did, via the support link on their website. I included all the details and link to the video.


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## dcoscina (Aug 31, 2022)

really enjoying 1.7. It seems more lively and present. It also blends beautifully with Cinematic Studio Winds and Brass. 

Great job @Alex W


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## ScarletJerry (Aug 31, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


In this particular instance legatos on Vista seem much smoother, but that's what Vista does best. I like both libraries and you can never have too many string libs!

Scarlet Jerry


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## NoamL (Aug 31, 2022)

Ian Dorsch said:


> Solo guitar is real. The solo flute is (mostly) Cinematic Studio Winds. The more ethnic-sounding one is the trusty old Embertone Jubal Flute.
> 
> 
> Ah, thanks, I really appreciate that! Yeah, I'm afraid the reverb thing is very unscientific. I used to try to dial in fancy spatial stuff, separate tails and reflections, etc, but I was never quite satisfied with the results. This setup is just two different-sounding hall verbs, applied at varying levels to the same material - the whole Jake Jackson "it doesn't sound quite right until there are two different reverbs on it" philosophy.


If you're okay with 1 more question... 🤣 I'd love to know what you like to use for percussion. Those drums with an upbeat roll that come in at 1:38 are a killer sound. Well programmed too, to keep the focus on the strings!! They also sound so far away (without losing clarity) it really opens up the track and takes it to a more adventurous-sounding level for the finale.


----------



## laudmusic (Aug 31, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> From the updated notes docu:
> 
> "Low latency mode has a legato delay of approximately 150ms (but don’t hold me to it),
> and replaces the outgoing “Standard” legato mode, which had a delay of 250ms, while
> ...


Yes, I read that. Just looking for other's observations. Thx.


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## Ian Dorsch (Aug 31, 2022)

NoamL said:


> If you're okay with 1 more question... 🤣 I'd love to know what you like to use for percussion. Those drums with an upbeat roll that come in at 1:38 are a killer sound. Well programmed too, to keep the focus on the strings!! They also sound so far away (without losing clarity) it really opens up the track and takes it to a more adventurous-sounding level for the finale.


Thank you Noam, I'm so glad to hear that stuff works for you - I really wrestled with it! That particular spot is Hammers (that's where that sweet roll comes from), MA3 shaker ensemble, Damage 2 tom ensemble + roto toms, Albion One Darwin Perc for low end boomers and some more toms, and Spitfire Perc for pretty much everything else. That's actually the bulk of the percussion setup for the whole track, plus a little splash of the ancient Tonehammer Small Epic Percussion and the even more ancient EWQLSO cymbals and gongs (which I still irrationally love).


----------



## Project Anvil (Aug 31, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> It seems I'm unable to add to Kontakt after I've added the new one. It keeps looking for the new one and says it's not the right library when trying to add the old one. Doesn't even work with the backup where I'm fairly certain I didn't do anything except copying it to that place. It also has the nicnt file.
> Would be pretty burned if I'd want to go back to the old now.
> 
> I managed put the nkis of the old version in the instrument folder of the new version into a folder called "old css". Then resaved those when showing the missing samples notification but with the samples of the old version, in a different location.
> ...


Not to be mean, but Alex's post explained very, very clearly that you shouldn't upgrade in the middle of existing projects, and that opening old projects would require a FULL backup of the old version and renaming folders. 

The reason you can't just use the old instruments with the new samples is because, well, the samples are recut, there are new mics, etc. In short: the sample files are different. 

What you need to have is one full folder (instruments and samples) of the new version. This one should be installed through native access. This folder should be named Cinematic Studio Strings.

Then you have a full backup (different instruments and samples) of the old version. This folder should be named Cinematic Studio Strings old.

- If you want to load old instruments side-by-side with the new ones, just use the files tab in Kontakt to open the old nki instrument(s).
- If you want to open an old project: rename "Cinematic Studio Strings" (the folder containing the new version) to "Cinematic Studio Strings new" _and_ rename ""Cinematic Studio Strings old" to "Cinematic Studio Strings". Now you can open up the old project and since Native Access is pointing at "Cinematic Studio Strings" it will load the old version.


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## Project Anvil (Aug 31, 2022)

Here's my contribution, a strings-only snippet from a piece I'm working on.



With the exception of the 1st violins it's all low dynamics, so lots of volume boosting is involved. I like the new tone quite a bit better over the old one


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## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2022)

ScarletJerry said:


> and you can never have too many string libs!


🧡 😎 👍🏻


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## rlundv (Aug 31, 2022)

mohsohsenshi said:


> I've found that the Violin 2 has a stronger accent when it kicks in, but I can't produce the volume jump in your example.
> 
> Here are my render files. Same note and CC1 data from 0-127.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this test. Hm, it sounds different than my setup over here. Might have to try a re-install to see if it fixes anything!


----------



## Stardog24 (Sep 1, 2022)

Juulu said:


> That was awesome! Can I ask what mix settings you used? I really like the sound, especially the low-string shorts.


Completely missed this. V1, V2 and Vla are main mix.

Cellos and Basses have (approximately) room at -6, main at -3 and both spot mics up to +4ish (though with a slight emphasis to Spot 1.)


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 1, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> This is an "unfair comparison" but I'll share it anyway.
> 
> First Pass = CSS 1.7
> 2nd Pass - MSS with my personal presets
> ...


MSS still not getting enough credit. In a full production I'd massage the release just a bit but otherwise then both sound good. I can hear the bump in the third chord now that you mention it but it didn't stick out to me as something artificial sounding, that's just the way it was played in the moment.

I think people focus on the legato a lot with CSS but i don't think that's all that's at play. I think the releases are doing a surprising amount of work behind the scenes to keep things sounding connected. I've also noticed that using "soft releases" (for example, Berlin) tends to add a touch of the CSS smoothness and connectedness back in. As far as realism, that's the big difference I'm hearing


----------



## IdealSequenceG (Sep 1, 2022)

Cinematic Studio Strings - 1st Violins Test


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## Soundbed (Sep 1, 2022)

IdealSequenceG said:


> Cinematic Studio Strings - 1st Violins Test



This has some of those “volume bumps” too. Not that they are bad or good, I’m just noticing that “push” into many of the transitions.

It appears the intended playing technique is to dip the mod wheel around the transitions, like in Alex’s video.

I’ve gotten accustomed to modulating with smoother phrase curves, after watching some AKD videos. But I’m also using MSS more frequently lately, where I can separately automate the speed and volume of the transitions if desired. (Of course, if the passage needs a lot of “life” I’ll move it more mid-note, but not necessarily dipping for the transitions.)

I’m only commenting on / observing MIDI performance technique approaches. Not making judgements on what’s better or worse.


----------



## imyself (Sep 1, 2022)

Spid said:


> Damn... I feel so privileged now to download it in 20mn with my 2Gbps Fiber, I almost forgot what it was on slow lines.
> 
> I wish everyone could access to fast internet, it makes not only life easier, but it opens the door to more connectivity, more streaming, more download, all that in the same time. I very often watch something in streaming while downloading libraries, while someone else might be playing games and the internet doesn't move the needle, it's rock solid... It definitely changed my life since I'm 24/7 on the internet. And luckily internet here in France is quite cheap in comparison to what I was paying the US... it's like 40 or 45 bucks a month for the 2Gbps Fiber. As said, I feel very privileged.


"28 hours 30 mn" for full download (i live in middle of nowhere in center of France / only very slow connection!


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## Spid (Sep 1, 2022)

imyself said:


> "28 hours 30 mn" for full download (i live in middle of nowhere in center of France / only very slow connection!


I feel your pain, it was the same situation before for me (I'm in North-East of France, also in the middle of nowhere with more cows than inhabitants). 

But luckily, last year the gov decided to have fiber optic to connect neighbour cities, and it had to go through my village, and luckily the fiber pass just in front of my house. So we had the option to get a distribution point and the whole village voted yes with enough potential customers so it was worth building it. So now we have fiber up to 2Gbps down and 800Mbps up (I think). 

So what would take 28h before now takes less than 28mn... it's one of the best thing that happen to me since I was working remotely and was exchanging large files for videos and post prod sessions.

I hope you will get a chance to have it too, or maybe some new 5G solutions, I heard it's fast too. It makes life so easier, mainly when we have to download large libraries, files, etc... As mentioned, now I feel so privileged to not think about download time anymore.


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## TomaeusD (Sep 1, 2022)

Not sure if anyone else has noticed but rebowing with sustain pedal actually causes an octave jump (sometimes with a portamento). I've reported this bug as well as a couple others mentioned earlier: ensemble bass releases at A0 and legato overlap for expressive legato without sustain pedal.


----------



## Soundbed (Sep 1, 2022)

TomaeusD said:


> Not sure if anyone else has noticed but rebowing with sustain pedal actually causes an octave jump (sometimes with a portamento). I've reported this bug as well as a couple others mentioned earlier: ensemble bass releases at A0 and legato overlap for expressive legato without sustain pedal.


Rebow without sustain pedal for me, too. Only if the notes overlap.


----------



## jadedsean (Sep 1, 2022)

Hez guys, would someone be so kind as to tell how big the sample folder is?


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## BassClef (Sep 1, 2022)

imyself said:


> "28 hours 30 mn" for full download (i live in middle of nowhere in center of France / only very slow connection!


Sorry to hear that, but it beats "dial up"... remember those days!


----------



## BassClef (Sep 1, 2022)

jadedsean said:


> Hez guys, would someone be so kind as to tell how big the sample folder is?


48.57GB


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## Illico (Sep 1, 2022)

BassClef said:


> 48.57GB


Be carefull on Windows, folder size display 45,2Go (properties details 48.59GB with 72 files and 5 subfolders)


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## muk (Sep 1, 2022)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> As far as I understand it's just the new mix, isn't it?


The new mix certainly plays an important part in the crisper, brighter sound signature of v1.7. But Alex also denoised the samples. And maybe there are a few other factors that affect the sound as well. Personally I like the sound signature of v1.7. Though it really needs a bit of reverb. v1.7 sounds drier out of the box than v1.5 did. That's one more factor why people might prefer the older version. In my example, both versions are out of the box, without any external processing except level matching.


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## rlundv (Sep 1, 2022)

Illico said:


> Be carefull on Windows, folder size display 45,2Go (properties details 48.59GB with 72 files and 5 subfolders)


Thanks for clearing this up!


----------



## Francisco Lamolda (Sep 1, 2022)

Javier Navarrete's Pan's Labyrinth - 4M8 The Funeral (last part)

I used CSS 1.7 at first. Then, just for fun, BBC Pro and finally I combined the two.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 1, 2022)

May I ask y'alls's opinion on mixing CSS?

Here is the same mockup with three mix options. The difference in the mix is above 3k - which affects the sound of the violins especially.

Three options:

A) highs raised with EQ

View attachment Astrid Spin - Option A.mp3



B) highs raised with EQ + saturation

View attachment Astrid Spin - Option B.mp3



C) no high frequency boost

View attachment Astrid Spin - Option C.mp3



Which mix do you like best?


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Sep 1, 2022)

NoamL said:


> May I ask y'alls's opinion on mixing CSS?
> 
> Here is the same mockup with three mix options. The difference in the mix is above 3k - which affects the sound of the violins especially.
> 
> ...


For old people whose hearing is hooked, I think the first one is better, and those who are younger, the last one will be good as well.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 1, 2022)

Here's one more example of the three approaches.

I'm not yet 100% satisfied with the MIDI programming on this mockup, so don't hold it against CSS v1.7! The example posted by @inthevoid earlier was more impressive.

A) high frequencies raised with EQ

View attachment Longbottom Flies - Option A.mp3



B) highs raised with EQ + Saturation

View attachment Longbottom Flies - Option B.mp3



C) no high boost

View attachment Longbottom Flies - Option C.mp3



Also @Joël Dollié posted this interesting video earlier about mixing CSS 1.5 - I'd love to hear your perspective on the 1.7 update Joël!


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 1, 2022)

laudmusic said:


> Yes, I read that. Just looking for other's observations. Thx.


If I'm playing it in, i don't need much compensation because my hands and brain automatically adjust a little, so maybe like 50-60ms but your mileage may vary. I haven't messed much with penciling it in yet so we'll see


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 1, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Thank you kindly.
> 
> As for the MIDI, you are most welcome to it.


Very nice - I really love this mini composition... I took the opportunity to studyit, also I transferred it onto Synchron Strings Pro as well. Quantized the midi 100% (wanted to see if it still sounds natural fully quantized, and it definitely does), and Applied Joel CSS mixing guide to both CSS (and used all four mics in CSS) and SSP (and adapted the midi to SSP a bit), renders below for comparison:

CSS
View attachment 2022-09-02 String Action Thing.2022-09-02 06_49_22 CSS 1.7.mp3

SSP
View attachment 2022-09-02 String Action Thing.2022-09-02 06_48_35 SSP.mp3

CSS+SSP Layered (timings would need further work to get this really tight)
View attachment 2022-09-02 String Action Thing.2022-09-02 06_58_46 CSS+SSP.mp3


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 1, 2022)

NoamL said:


> May I ask y'alls's opinion on mixing CSS?
> 
> Here is the same mockup with three mix options. The difference in the mix is above 3k - which affects the sound of the violins especially.
> 
> ...


For sure no high boost (C) - seems more 'stage' natural. What about a "D" condition - no EQ - only saturation (subtle - when you start to 'hear it' back it off a tad). Of course contextually everything changes.


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 1, 2022)

NoamL said:


> May I ask y'alls's opinion on mixing CSS?


I prefer B) in both examples. Closely folloed by A) and then C). Although all are excellent! Probably needs more context to make a choice.


----------



## jadedsean (Sep 1, 2022)

BassClef said:


> 48.57GB


Thanks dude


----------



## MelodicAdagio (Sep 1, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Here's one more example of the three approaches.
> 
> I'm not yet 100% satisfied with the MIDI programming on this mockup, so don't hold it against CSS v1.7! The example posted by @inthevoid earlier was more impressive.
> 
> ...



I slightly prefer B on both this and the previous example. A for me comes in second and C last, though all are good.


----------



## Stardog24 (Sep 1, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Very nice - I really love this mini composition... I took the opportunity to studyit, also I transferred it onto Synchron Strings Pro as well. Quantized the midi 100% (wanted to see if it still sounds natural fully quantized, and it definitely does), and Applied Joel CSS mixing guide to both CSS (and used all four mics in CSS) and SSP (and adapted the midi to SSP a bit), renders below for comparison:
> 
> CSS
> View attachment 2022-09-02 String Action Thing.2022-09-02 06_49_22 CSS 1.7.mp3
> ...


Thank you kindly 

I really like the SSP layer, particularly in the spicato section. Compliments CSS well.

I can see myself having to buy another string library. 😂


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## liquidlino (Sep 1, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> Thank you kindly
> 
> I really like the SSP layer, particularly in the spicato section. Compliments CSS well.
> 
> I can see myself having to buy another string library. 😂


I've only had limited time with SSP so far, but it's amazing. Totally different/complementary aesthetic to CSS, much airier and brighter. The pizz and spicc are just lovely. Weirdly I have Prime on trial, and I wasn't that impressed with Prime, but I took the gamble and bought SSP anyway, and so glad I did - it's a completely different library almost... Prime is like a mini taster. here's a little pizz/spicc ostinato in SSP.
View attachment 2022-08-30 SSP Try-out.2022-09-02 15_23_44 SSp Pizz Demo.mp3


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## IdealSequenceG (Sep 1, 2022)

Cinematic Studio Strings - 1st Violins Test 2


----------



## Peter Satera (Sep 2, 2022)

Thank you for the testing everyone. It's been excellent to follow as I don't want to update if certain things are broken as I'm mid project and about to hit another. It's fantastic to be informed of the issues occuring currently.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 2, 2022)

MelodicAdagio said:


> I slightly prefer B on both this and the previous example. A for me comes in second and C last, though all are good.





liquidlino said:


> I prefer B) in both examples. Closely folloed by A) and then C). Although all are excellent! Probably needs more context to make a choice.





Rob Elliott said:


> For sure no high boost (C) - seems more 'stage' natural. What about a "D" condition - no EQ - only saturation (subtle - when you start to 'hear it' back it off a tad). Of course contextually everything changes.





Vladimir Bulaev said:


> For old people whose hearing is hooked, I think the first one is better, and those who are younger, the last one will be good as well.



Thanks for the feedback!!

The two demos on the 1st page were made using the B-mix. After hearing some other peoples' demos that weren't mixed so aggressively I was 2nd-guessing if the new version of CSS really needs that much high equalization. 

The B mix is based on referencing CineStrings and also some live recordings at SONY.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 2, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


I like CSS much more in several ways. Most important the phrasing is more musical and realistic to my ears. The individual voices are clearer audible which is a huge plus imo and the overall sound is less muddy. Interesting comparison. My humble opinion or taste.


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## Andrew Qualls (Sep 2, 2022)

Here's a 3 second test of CSS 1.7 compared to the Original using the mix setting, I definitely here a difference, also only put reverb from Cinematic Rooms Large Hall, but no EQ and other effects.


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## muziksculp (Sep 2, 2022)

Besides the new Low-Latency mode, what fixes, and/or new features/improvements are you expecting the next update versions of CSW, CSB, and CSSS will offer ?

I could post this as a new thread if you think it will be useful to separate it from the focus on CSS 1.7 on this thread.


----------



## Bluemount Score (Sep 2, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Besides the new Low-Latency mode, what fixes, and/or new features/improvements are you expecting the next update versions of CSW, CSB, and CSSS will offer ?


New improved Mix Mic like in CSS, some de-noising, ensemble patch for CSW. That's it.


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## Bluemount Score (Sep 2, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> For old people whose hearing is hooked, I think the first one is better, and those who are younger, the last one will be good as well.


I'm 24 and probably old then


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## Casiquire (Sep 2, 2022)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> I like CSS much more in several ways. Most important the phrasing is more musical and realistic to my ears. The individual voices are clearer audible which is a huge plus imo and the overall sound is less muddy. Interesting comparison. My humble opinion or taste.


From my own experience, yes, Vista is more homogenous than a lot of libraries out there. That's not a bad thing though. Sometimes I want a well blended ensemble and sometimes I don't.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 2, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Besides the new Low-Latency mode, what fixes, and/or new features/improvements are you expecting the next update versions of CSW, CSB, and CSSS will offer ?
> 
> I could post this as a new thread if you think it will be useful to separate it from the focus on CSS 1.7 on this thread.



You downloaded the new CSS minutes ago! Why not have fun with it and write some music?


----------



## NoamL (Sep 2, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...



@Dirk Ehlert it's close. I slightly prefer Vista here. But - did you use the marcato (F#0) legato for the CSS version? If so, the Expressive Mode C0 Legato might create an even better result.

Vista no doubt sounds great though!


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## muziksculp (Sep 2, 2022)

NoamL said:


> You downloaded the new CSS minutes ago! Why not have fun with it and write some music?


Oh.. Am I supposed to make music with these things ? I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know.


----------



## ka00 (Sep 2, 2022)

NoamL said:


> You downloaded the new CSS minutes ago! Why not have fun with it and write some music?


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 2, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I could post this as a new thread if you think it will be useful to separate it from the focus on CSS 1.7 on this thread.


Yes, please. The more CSS threads the merrier.


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## muziksculp (Sep 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Yes, please. The more CSS threads the merrier.


LOL , I will give you the honor to open that thread.


----------



## Alex W (Sep 3, 2022)

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to drop in and provide a brief update on things.

*Native Access / download issues*

Firstly, thanks so much to everyone for being so patient while we deal with Native Access issues. I totally understand your frustration, and to cut a long story short, I am looking to implement an alternative download method for anyone having trouble with NA. For most people NA has worked okay, but when it doesn't, I haven't always had the answers, and it doesn't feel good to have to send people away to NI support. But don't worry, I'll get this all sorted out.

*Expressive legato in v1.7 vs Advanced legato in v1.5*

To the folks that commented that the new Expressive legato mode feels different to the previous Advanced setting, please accept my apologies - you were actually right. As it turns out, I realised this morning that I had mistakenly changed a couple of parameters in the legato settings, and these two parameters have made quite a noticeable difference in the way the expressive legato "flows". I must have made this mistake very close to the actual release date, and because I ended up using low-latency legato for all the demo material, I simply didn't notice. There are literally hundreds of parameters to be tweaked in the back-end of every patch, so it was just an oversight that will be easy enough to fix. So anyway, I was wrong to shut that conversation down - my bad. I just didn't want it to instantly turn into a "v1.5 is better than v1.7" thread.

It's all good though, I fully expected there to be a few minor bugs / tweaks after the first couple of weeks of release. I'm looking into the various bugs that have been reported - they all look fixable, and I'll return the expressive mode parameters to where they should be.

*Spiccato overlay volume for Marcato
*
Also, @TomaeusD I agree with your critique of the spiccato overlay. In v1.7 I implemented a "velocity-compression" function into the overlay itself, so that when the modwheel is low, it reduces the max range of velocity so that you can play soft agile passages without needing to worry about playing really lightly on the keyboard, as hitting the keys softly is difficult when you're playing a fast passage. I love this function, but I will scale it back a bit so that you can still get more energy into the accents - this should restore the "fanfare" ability as you pointed out.

*Version 1.7.1 update*

Okay, I think that covers everything. Tech support is finally quietening down enough for me to start working on the above things, and hopefully I'll be able to get a version 1.7.1 update ready for release in the next couple of weeks. 

I'm also loving the demos being posted - please continue! And lastly, please don't hesitate to offer constructive criticism if you want to. It turns out that releasing an update to an already well-established library is actually much more stressful than simply releasing a new product. But that's the way it goes, and it's important to me that people still feel like they can voice whatever opinions they have. I won't always agree, but I always take any constructive feedback into consideration.

Thanks again!

-Alex


----------



## Jackdnp121 (Sep 3, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to drop in and provide a brief update on things.
> 
> ...


Legend ! Thanks for the hard work mate …


----------



## johncdl (Sep 3, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Quick question to css owners, do you use CSS solely or layer it with other strings libraries?


Sounds awesome with Albion One's strings


----------



## Igor Sena (Sep 3, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to drop in and provide a brief update on things.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being such a humble and hard working professioal, Alex. You are the best!


----------



## tcb (Sep 3, 2022)

Alex W said:


> It turns out that releasing an update to an already well-established library is actually much more stressful than simply releasing a new product
> 
> -Alex


Spitfire:


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Sep 3, 2022)

No need to apologize, mate  Will be interesting to hear 1.7.1 when it’s ready.


----------



## TomaeusD (Sep 3, 2022)

Your hard work and openness is so appreciated here, @Alex W! I was using the marcato for a project today and it's still very much useable for fanfare playing with modwheel up. I'd rather you keep it how it is if it means it's easier to achieve smooth string runs, or else have an option to access the velocity compression in the settings. Thanks again!


----------



## holywilly (Sep 3, 2022)

Please bring back Classic Legato Patches.


----------



## Stevie (Sep 4, 2022)

Stardog24 said:


> So two things. First of all re: loading up 1.5, I've had huge success just dragging the instrument nki's from the file browser. Had both 1.7 and 1.5 running simultaneously in Logic with no dramas at all. Heaps easier than renaming, and I now have both versions sitting side by side in my template.
> 
> Also, in the sake of fairness, I did that thing that Alex keeps telling us not to do in reverse and ran the piece I wrote in 1.7 through 1.5. Ouch.
> 
> ...


The Basses shorts are waaaaaay more agressive in 1.5. Is that due to the fact that Alex removed the staccatissimo layer from the spics?


----------



## Henu (Sep 4, 2022)

johncdl said:


> Sounds awesome with Albion One's strings


I think it actually sounds awesome with almost _any_ other library as long as they're not bone-dry. It's one of the main things that makes CSS so good- it sounds very good on it's own but it's very moldable sound-wise, and you can layer almost any other strings with it and they complement each other excellently.

In fact, I just rebuilt my whole workflow yesterday and finally decided to go with CSS as my main strings for everything after years of hovering between SCS, SSS, CSS and lately with Hollywood Strings. I'm just so goddamn fed up with the inconstencies, bugs and everything else on these other string libraries which slow me tremendously down. I want my main strings to actually _work_ and then augment if needed, not vice versa.
Using CSS as the backbone, it's faster to get good results first and then augment it afterwards with the others, instead of starting with a buggy or completely inconsistent library having to replace half of the articulations with other libraries first because the first choice sounds like shit or bugs on important articulations in the middle of everything.


----------



## Stardog24 (Sep 4, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to drop in and provide a brief update on things.
> 
> ...


I'm sure I'm just contributing to your excess notifications here, but Alex, what you have done with version 1.7 is nothing short of miraculous in my view. Short of modelled libraries this is the most playable Kontakt instrument I've come across bar none, and much as I loved it, I could not say that of the old versions.

Thank you!


----------



## tc9000 (Sep 4, 2022)

Alex W said:


> It turns out that releasing an update to an already well-established library is actually much more stressful than simply releasing a new product.


This.

I think I know some of why this happens - it's like the difference between releasing an original track and a cover - with the cover, everyone is goes immediately into comparison mode, rather than a thoughtful evaluation of the cover track. Further, in VI world, the main evaluation tool is to drop the updated library onto MIDI created with the original library or another library completely (I'm guilty of this - but I now try to make sure this is only used to demonstrate something positive - e.g. how well the updated library sounds). Those evaluating by actually creating new music are drowned out by all the 'drop in' comparison folks and a skewed viewpoint can become the norm, blooming into a shared "reality".

Finally, the more a product is loved, the harder time vendors seem to get for updating it. If a product is not great, noone is going to have any problems with it being updated! If its already a wonderful, loved library, folks are going to be more protective of the original...

We should all remember this in our responses to vendors updating stuff: free updates represent a hugely charitable effort from the vendor. Other vendors that don't do these are going to be able to channel more funds into other areas - marketing, R&D, etc, etc.

So please, if you love free updates like I do, take time to evaluate them and treat them with the respect they deserve. That said - I can see that the best vendors* do value constructive feedback from us - we must be a hugely valuable set of (gamma? post-gamma?) testers, so please don't stop with the constructive feedback - I'm certain that responses from members on this forum have directly improved some products out there, and we have all benefited from this.

* and not coincedentally perhaps - these receptive vendors are often the ones offering free updates!


----------



## johncdl (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Please bring back Classic Legato Patches.


I thought it was just me


----------



## Saxer (Sep 4, 2022)

Alex W said:


> It turns out that releasing an update to an already well-established library is actually much more stressful than simply releasing a new product.


Since CSS appeared every other developer has to stand endless legato comparisons between CSS and every other new string library. Now you are in the same boat...


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Please bring back Classic Legato Patches.


What's wrong with the low-latency mode? Does it not suit you? Legato is much better there than in the classic legato patches.


----------



## lzcmusic (Sep 4, 2022)

With low-latency mode, Classic Legato Patches are not needed at all.


----------



## Stardog24 (Sep 4, 2022)

Stevie said:


> The Basses shorts are waaaaaay more agressive in 1.5. Is that due to the fact that Alex removed the staccatissimo layer from the spics?


Certainly a lot to do with it, but I absolutely love the tighter sound. If I want them to be more aggressive I can just use the staccatissimo patch, or layer them together myself, but the tight sound of the new spiccato is right up my alley.


----------



## Gerbil (Sep 4, 2022)

Would it be at all possible to have an option so all articulations can be mapped to to normal keyswitches rather than cc/velocity? I prefer having my left hand down the bottom of the keyboard triggering these things in real time rather than dragging midi data around or trying to get midi controller positions or velocities just right.


----------



## holywilly (Sep 4, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> What's wrong with the low-latency mode? Does it not suit you? Legato is much better there than in the classic legato patches.


When I’m composing, I like to record midi real time and done, less time editing midi means more time to focus on arranging. I’ve tried working with low latency mode, I eventually take more time editing them writing. I bought the library because of low latency mode, and tried the classic legato patch at my friend’s, it’s nowhere comparable.

I truly think Cinematic Studio series deserve its own sample player than kontakt.


----------



## Gingerbread (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> When I’m composing, I like to record midi real time and done, less time editing midi means more time to focus on arranging. I’ve tried working with low latency mode, I eventually take more time editing them writing. I bought the library because of low latency mode, and tried the classic legato patch at my friend’s, it’s nowhere comparable.
> 
> I truly think Cinematic Studio series deserve its own sample player than kontakt.


If you save a backup of CSS 1.5 before updating, wouldn’t the Classic patches still be available there?


----------



## Henu (Sep 4, 2022)

Yes, they are.


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## holywilly (Sep 4, 2022)

Gingerbread said:


> If you save a backup of CSS 1.5 before updating, wouldn’t the Classic patches still be available there?


Sadly css 1.7 is my first purchase, therefore the classic patches are not available for me.


----------



## Go To 11 (Sep 4, 2022)

Michael_Picher said:


> Here are two tests I did after downloading v1.7 yesterday. First is a random doodle and the other is a mockup of a music cue from a previous iteration of Spaceship Earth, a ride at Walt Disney World.



Two lovely pieces!


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## Henu (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Sadly css 1.7 is my first purchase, therefore the classic patches are not available for me.


I think Alex could help you with that, I suggest you shoot him an email at some point and ask about getting the older version as well.


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## Batrawi (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Sadly css 1.7 is my first purchase, therefore the classic patches are not available for me.


I can assure you they offered nothing but more unnatural results. I understand you're just asking for sake of playability that you'd post-edit, but that's exactly why "low-latency" is there for, while it still maintains a great balance between both worlds (playability and realism)



Henu said:


> I think Alex could help you with that, I suggest you shoot him an email at some point and ask about getting the older version as well.


He only owns the new version which isn't compatible with any of the older patches/samples. I don't think Alex would still promote/make available those old samples since the new version is obviously meant to completely replace those... but yeah wouldn't hurt if he asked


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## holywilly (Sep 4, 2022)

I like layering libraries for my production, layering different VSL and OT libraries are my current workflow, I write with whatever string library then just copy the midi to others (each library has identical set of articulations and expression maps). 

The problem of css is the latency, even with low latency mode, things just won’t play nicely together. Main reason acquiring css is its darker room tone and legato transitions. All my workhorse string libraries sound relatively bright and less pronounced transitions.


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## Casiquire (Sep 4, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> What's wrong with the low-latency mode? Does it not suit you? Legato is much better there than in the classic legato patches.





lzcmusic said:


> With low-latency mode, Classic Legato Patches are not needed at all.



The low latency is still like 150ms of delay, people! And the timing between the fast and slow transitions in low latency is still inconsistent enough to really trip me up. It's not as bad as it used to be and it's kind of within my personal tolerances, but I disagree, the low latency is not a replacement for the classic legato. The delay is still far greater


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## duringtheafter (Sep 4, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to drop in and provide a brief update on things.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all your dedication and attention.

Wondering if you can offer advice here or let me know if this is a bug or a feature.

I've been playing around with a phrase in the Celli and Basses from John Williams' "The Mission Theme" - manuscript snippet posted below.





I've programmed the repeated C's as staccatissimo and spiccato (works beautifully in both 1.5 and 1.7). For the 16th note run (A-G#-A-B) on beat 4 I've programmed all four 16th notes as marcato + spiccato overlay, since this shouldn't be slurred/connected. 
In both 1.5 and 1.7: using articulation maps in Cubase via CC58, and I've disabled the CC1 changer for the shorts (although that shouldn't affect marcato).

In CSS1.5, I get a clean accented 16th note run (although the whole thing is a bit muddy overall).

In CSS1.7, while the phrase is much crisper, the fourth 16th note in the run (B) "sticks" in both the Celli and Basses. (And a later note seems to stick in the Basses as well.) I can work around it by changing the articulation of that last 16th note, but it does change the phrasing a tiny bit.
(I tried rebuilding the phrase in CSS1.7 from scratch as well, so I don't think it's just a "take 1.5 MIDI programming and replace with 1.7" issue.)

Is this a product of runs mode getting triggered and sticking somehow? The 16th notes in the run don't overlap, but they are all at full duration. Any thoughts? Or do I need to change the articulation on the fourth 16th to something else to prevent this from happening -- and if so, why?


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I like layering libraries for my production, layering different VSL and OT libraries are my current workflow, I write with whatever string library then just copy the midi to others (each library has identical set of articulations and expression maps).
> 
> The problem of css is the latency, even with low latency mode, things just won’t play nicely together. Main reason acquiring css is its darker room tone and legato transitions. All my workhorse string libraries sound relatively bright and less pronounced transitions.


I'm only interested in the low latency mode and was hoping for some "better" playability (don't have the library yet). As you have several VSL libraries to compare with – what's your opinion? You said you tested the classic mode, is this similar to VSL? What other libraries are comparable? I mean I absolutely appreciate some bit of delay, but not that it disturbs my playing. I'm a player, not a midi editor. I also have some Spitfire libraries (BBCSO, SStS) and HWS. Are these in some kind similar to CSS in terms of delay?


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Sadly css 1.7 is my first purchase, therefore the classic patches are not available for me.


You don't need anything from 1.5, CSS 1.7 imho. is an improved version in all aspects of the library. You are getting the next level of CSS quality Strings. You don't need the classic patches. I updated to 1.7, and archived 1.5. Don't need it.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Sep 4, 2022)

I already asked @holywilly, but could also someone else help me to get a better grasp of the legato delays, especially the new one. What library is similar to this so that I have something to compare it to? I'm totally fine with e.g. Spitfire or EastWest in terms of delay. Has CSS even more?


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## MelodicAdagio (Sep 4, 2022)

Here's a noodle using CSS 1.7. I only used the low-latency legato. No EQ or anything like that. I just slapped some reverb on the stereo out. The MIDI could use some tweaking, but this is just a quick and dirty effort rather than anything approaching a finished product. (Attachment replaced to reflect the version that was supposed to have been posted initially.)


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## jaketanner (Sep 4, 2022)

muk said:


> A direct comparison between the original CSS out of the box, vs v1.7 out of the box. No tweaking applied, it's both the exact same midi data:
> 
> 
> CSS original
> ...


Seems 1.7 has a lot less mud...much more focused and clear compared to the old CSS. Unfortunately, I deleted my old folder to make room for the new one so I can't do direct comparisons...LOL.


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> Seems 1.7 has a lot less mud...much more focused and clear compared to the old CSS. Unfortunately, I deleted my old folder to make room for the new one so I can't do direct comparisons...LOL.


Yes, with the availability of the two new Spot mics, (1 , and 2) , and how you blend them into the other optional mics. You have a lot more sonic sculpting flexibility, make it much more focused, and clear, or muddy if you want to.


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## Raphioli (Sep 4, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Main reason acquiring css is its darker room tone and legato transitions.


Imho, if you really bought CSS for its legato transitions, you're going to be missing a lot by using the classic patches. And the transitions might be less impressive to you.

But I get that you have your own workflow.
Maybe try contacting Alex via the Cinematic Studio website.
Maybe for a fee (since bandwidth isn't free), he could give you a link to download the older version.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Sep 4, 2022)

I think Alex is genuinely more interested in making his customers happy than in whether they prefer to use version 1.5 or 1.7 of his CSS. So I’d definitely ask him if it‘s possible to get 1.5, perhaps for a fee.


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## Batrawi (Sep 4, 2022)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I already asked @holywilly, but could also someone else help me to get a better grasp of the legato delays, especially the new one. What library is similar to this so that I have something to compare it to? I'm totally fine with e.g. Spitfire or EastWest in terms of delay. Has CSS even more?


I have VSL dimension & HWS, and I do sense that CSS' low latency may introduce a bit of delay in comparison but not to the extent that it disturb playability IMO but YMMV.


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## gst98 (Sep 4, 2022)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I already asked @holywilly, but could also someone else help me to get a better grasp of the legato delays, especially the new one. What library is similar to this so that I have something to compare it to? I'm totally fine with e.g. Spitfire or EastWest in terms of delay. Has CSS even more?


HWS is ~100ms, SF are 100-150 (I think), PS is typically 130, all of which are usually considered perfectly playable libraries. 

Synchron strings feels like it could be 20 or 30, near instantaneous. I think CSS low latency before 1.7 was 100ms.

Not directed at you but I really don’t understand how people are expecting the fast marcato legatos and portamentos to have anywhere near the same latency. Just never gonna happen.


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## hauspe (Sep 4, 2022)

MelodicAdagio said:


> Here's a noodle using CSS 1.7. I only used the low-latency legato. No EQ or anything like that. I just slapped some reverb on the stereo out. The MIDI could use some tweaking, but this is just a quick and dirty effort rather than anything approaching a finished product.


hmm, to my surprise your short demonstration sounds odd...like in the dust, which reverb did you use? Without that (wet) reverb it would be better for demonstration purposes, to be honest. JM2C  Anyway thank you for your effort.


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2022)

So, which Cinematic Studio Library Update do you think will be released next ?

My guess : CSSS . 

Then CSB, then CSW.


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## Bluemount Score (Sep 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> So, which Cinematic Studio Library Update do you think will be released next ?
> 
> My guess : CSSS .
> 
> Then CSB, then CSW.


This and no different makes sense


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## Trash Panda (Sep 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> So, which Cinematic Studio Library Update do you think will be released next ?
> 
> My guess : CSSS .
> 
> Then CSB, then CSW.


Yeah, but it will be another two years to the next one being updated, so…


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Yeah, but it will be another two years to the next one being updated, so…


Which puts CSP release at 2025


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## artomatic (Sep 4, 2022)

Now that I finally got it downloaded via NA, I am loving this revised version, @Alex W .
Thanks very much for your generosity and perseverance


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## Batrawi (Sep 4, 2022)

ahh totally forgot about the marcato patches.. for anyone worrying about latency you can just turn off the spicc overlay and enjoy an instantaneous transition if that's what you prefer


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## constaneum (Sep 4, 2022)

Loving the latest CSS 1.7 !! I straight away use it for my current ongoing game project for scoring the CG scenes. Here's an audio sample clip. I used CSB, CSS (added bit of fresh air and vintage EQ) & CSP in this demo.
View attachment ZS-Sample.mp3


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2022)

constaneum said:


> Loving the latest CSS 1.7 !! I straight away use it for my current ongoing game project for scoring the CG scenes. Here's an audio sample clip. I used CSB, CSS (added bit of fresh air and vintage EQ) & CSP in this demo.
> View attachment ZS-Sample.mp3


Thanks for sharing. Track sounds great, but the Brass is over powering the Strings, couldn't really appreciate CSS, but CSB sounded very good.


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## constaneum (Sep 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for sharing. Track sounds great, but the Brass is over powering the Strings, couldn't really appreciate CSS, but CSB sounded very good.


you still dont like the sound of CSS even after the latest update? probably it's my fresh air plugin as well as vintage EQ. i think timbre wise, the latest CSS sounds better.


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2022)

constaneum said:


> you still dont like the sound of CSS even after the latest update? probably it's my fresh air plugin as well as vintage EQ. i think timbre wise, the latest CSS sounds better.


OH, No No, I love the sound of CSS, especially ver 1.7, it's just that your track has a lot of Brass that didn't allow me to appreciate listening to CSS in a more pure form.


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## constaneum (Sep 4, 2022)

ah i see. haha.


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## IdealSequenceG (Sep 5, 2022)

Cinematic Studio Strings - 2nd Violins Test


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## dko22 (Sep 5, 2022)

TomaeusD said:


> Not sure if anyone else has noticed but rebowing with sustain pedal actually causes an octave jump (sometimes with a portamento). I've reported this bug as well as a couple others mentioned earlier: ensemble bass releases at A0 and legato overlap for expressive legato without sustain pedal.


I discovered this early on and also reported it. Once the gap to the repeat gets above a certain length -- which corresponds in general to what one might expect when playing live -- then the problem goes away. It only occurs on a relatively small percentage of notes, though, (I've been looking at symphonies created with CS and perhaps 2-3% of such notes are affected) so is a bit odd. I'm sure Alex will get to the bottom it in time, though.


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## Alex W (Sep 5, 2022)

dko22 said:


> I discovered this early on and also reported it. Once the gap to the repeat gets above a certain length -- which corresponds in general to what one might expect when playing live -- then the problem goes away. It only occurs on a relatively small percentage of notes, though, (I've been looking at symphonies created with CS and perhaps 2-3% of such notes are affected) so is a bit odd. I'm sure Alex will get to the bottom it in time, though.


Thanks very much for reporting it - I'm narrowing in on what the cause is, shouldn't be too long.

Also @holywilly, I'll do my best to re-add the Classic legato patches. It's a bit tricky, but I'll see what I can do.


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## holywilly (Sep 5, 2022)

Thank you @Alex W 

Having classic patches with new mic setting is beneficial to many! I’m glad my voice is heard.


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## PerryD (Sep 5, 2022)

I forgot how much goofy fun I can have with CSS. Kitchen sink test of shorts, measured trem and pizzicato.


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## Batrawi (Sep 5, 2022)

IdealSequenceG said:


> Cinematic Studio Strings - 2nd Violins Test



IN YOUR FACE PACIFIC STRINGS👊
😄


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## Batrawi (Sep 5, 2022)

IdealSequenceG said:


> Cinematic Studio Strings - 2nd Violins Test



Man I alway love the tests you share despite they're usually only for a few seconds. I particularly like the clean sound you've achieved with CSS here... can you share which mics, eq, reverb settings (and anything else) you've used here?


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## IdealSequenceG (Sep 5, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> Man I alway love the tests you share despite they're usually only for a few seconds. I particularly like the clean sound you've achieved with CSS here... can you share which mics, eq, reverb settings (and anything else) you've used here?


It was done while listening with earphones, so it is not precisely processed.

448hz tuning and mic settings used MIX.

For the reverb, I used the Saint Alain preset of Altiverb 7 and applied about 18% Wet(1st violins - test 2 used Trackdown Scoring Stage).

EQ used gullfoss. I set Recover to 30%, Tame to 15%, and Brighten to -8%.

The final processing was done using Nebula's 3rd party AlexB 9K Console and tim peterick's T Tape.


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## madfloyd (Sep 5, 2022)

PerryD said:


> I forgot how much goofy fun I can have with CSS. Kitchen sink test of shorts, measured trem and pizzicato.


It would take me weeks to put together something like that! Care to share the midi for study purposes?


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## PerryD (Sep 5, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> It would take me weeks to put together something like that! Care to share the midi for study purposes?


Thanks. I would happily share, but I burned the mp3 and trashed the project. Just having some fun.


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## Batrawi (Sep 5, 2022)

IdealSequenceG said:


> It was done while listening with earphones, so it is not precisely processed.
> 
> 448hz tuning and mic settings used MIX.
> 
> ...


really excellent stuff & taste that you have. As someone who has very limited mixing experience, I would never have thought that I can get such sound with CSS. Thanks a lot for sharing👍


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## Denkii (Sep 5, 2022)

IdealSequenceG said:


> 2nd Violins Test


That was unnecessary.


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## dko22 (Sep 5, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Thanks very much for reporting it - I'm narrowing in on what the cause is, shouldn't be too long.
> 
> Also @holywilly, I'll do my best to re-add the Classic legato patches. It's a bit tricky, but I'll see what I can do.


much appreciated! (personally couldn't care less about the Classic legato but of course I know others like it and it's great to see just how responsive you are)


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## Henu (Sep 5, 2022)

IdealSequenceG said:


> 448hz tuning


No wonder my brain went completely bonkers immediately. :D


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## Living Fossil (Sep 5, 2022)

Henu said:


> No wonder my brain went completely bonkers immediately. :D


same here...


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## Henu (Sep 5, 2022)

Let me guess, absolute pitch?


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## Living Fossil (Sep 5, 2022)

Henu said:


> Let me guess, absolute pitch?


technically not exactly, but pretty close to it... and I'm totally conditioned to 440...


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 5, 2022)

IdealSequenceG said:


> It was done while listening with earphones, so it is not precisely processed.
> 
> 448hz tuning and mic settings used MIX.
> 
> ...


Thanks for these details. I have found 'less is more' with Gullfoss, but for this snippet the +30 recover it just works. I seem to settle at 15% +/- (with -20 -- -30 on brightness). Thanks again for the details.


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## Wendolinny (Sep 5, 2022)

I’m quite impressed with the Marcato articulation. It handles ornaments and even hand-played trills really well.
This small example only uses the Marcato articulation:
View attachment CSS-1.7-Marc-Test-01.mp3

Thanks, Alex, for your hard work!


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## NoamL (Sep 5, 2022)

Wendolinny said:


> I’m quite impressed with the Marcato articulation. It handles ornaments and even hand-played trills really well.
> This small example only uses the Marcato articulation:
> View attachment CSS-1.7-Marc-Test-01.mp3
> 
> Thanks, Alex, for your hard work!


Yeah the ability to 'roll your own' trills, mordents, grace notes and other ornaments without even switching articulations is really good. The library's fluency & intelligibility at speed - just the right amount of blur but never feeling laggy or like a patchwork of unconnected samples - is right on the mark as well.

I believe there must be some complicated multi variable scripting going on under the hood. Like trill samples are blended in some of the time, but not all the time.


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## MelodicAdagio (Sep 5, 2022)

hauspe said:


> hmm, to my surprise your short demonstration sounds odd...like in the dust, which reverb did you use? Without that (wet) reverb it would be better for demonstration purposes, to be honest. JM2C  Anyway thank you for your effort.


Thanks for noting this. You're right about the reverb. I accidentally posted the wrong version. Normally I work within one of my templates that has the reverb all set, so I never really think about it. The reverb channel is 100% wet by default, but I control the wetness with a gain value sent to the reverb for each group channel, such as strings. This dials it back so that dry and wet signals are mixed appropriately for each section--strings, woodwinds, brass, etc. 

This being a new library, I hadn't gone through and added the articulations for each member of the string family in my main template, so I just winged it with a quick from-scratch project for this little test using only the sus articulation. The reverb plug-in went in with its default 100% wet and my initial version was that way. No group channel reverb sends. Realizing my oversight, I dialed it back to add in dry signal and thought I had moved out a fixed version, but I see I didn't.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 5, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> It would take me weeks to put together something like that! Care to share the midi for study purposes?


So make it an ear training exercise. Shouldnt be that hard. Just triads up and down.


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## Pier-V (Sep 5, 2022)

Wendolinny said:


> I’m quite impressed with the Marcato articulation. It handles ornaments and even hand-played trills really well.
> This small example only uses the Marcato articulation:
> View attachment CSS-1.7-Marc-Test-01.mp3
> 
> Thanks, Alex, for your hard work!


Ok, now this is seriously impressive. If this line sounds like this naked I can't imagine what the result would be in a full mix. In particular, all the transitions where a legato ornament turns into a staccato target note are *flawless*.
I've not installed 1.7 yet but as soon as Alex fixes the bugs he was talking about in an earlier post I'll make sure to check all the improvements first hand. There are some styles in which the abilty to get these kind of results with just one patch is a complete gamechanger, I mean the new marcato basically unlocks fast fugato writing for strings. Honestly, I still can't believe this update is free...


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 5, 2022)

Project Anvil said:


> Not to be mean, but Alex's post explained very, very clearly that you shouldn't upgrade in the middle of existing projects, and that opening old projects would require a FULL backup of the old version and renaming folders.
> 
> The reason you can't just use the old instruments with the new samples is because, well, the samples are recut, there are new mics, etc. In short: the sample files are different.
> 
> ...


I'm always in the middle of projects. Till I'm dead. I guess.
The post isn't about problems with my project but just about being unable to add the old version to Native Access with description of what I did, maybe as a warning.
I didn't mean to use the old instruments with the new samples. Where did I write that in my post?

I did fully copy the old version of CSS to another and didn't change anything about it unless it was accidental.

Actually it seems I am able to add this backup version to Native Access but only after naming it "Cinematic Studio Strings". Which is strange because I previously renamed it to css and there was no problem, that was the name of the original folder all along.
I also changed the name of the new version permanently by adding "New" and it didn't complain either.
Well, very confusing. But at least it seems to be possible with the new name.

Btw, when relocating CSS with the missing samples bubble I get a issue with the legato modes being called "low latency" and "expressive" rather than "standard" and "advanced".
But it is the old patch since it doesn't have spot mics. So something seems to be messed up. So just don't do anything I wrote in the original post and follow the instructions above - that way I'm not at fault at least 


Lionel Schmitt said:


> It seems I'm unable to add to Kontakt after I've added the new one. It keeps looking for the new one and says it's not the right library when trying to add the old one. Doesn't even work with the backup where I'm fairly certain I didn't do anything except copying it to that place. It also has the nicnt file.
> Would be pretty burned if I'd want to go back to the old now.
> 
> I managed put the nkis of the old version in the instrument folder of the new version into a folder called "old css". Then resaved those when showing the missing samples notification but with the samples of the old version, in a different location.
> ...


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Sep 5, 2022)

Wendolinny said:


> I’m quite impressed with the Marcato articulation. It handles ornaments and even hand-played trills really well.
> This small example only uses the Marcato articulation:
> View attachment CSS-1.7-Marc-Test-01.mp3
> 
> Thanks, Alex, for your hard work!


Holy moly, this is awesome!


----------



## Aitcpiano (Sep 5, 2022)

I've had a short test and compared between both 1.5 and 1.7.

I prefer the cleaner and brighter sound of 1.7. The new low latency legato is better than before. I never used the expressive/advanced legato so I would not be bothered by any issued in that regards and cant really comment on that but I find the low latency legato more than sufficient.

The marcato patch is now much improved, brilliant ability to easily do effective runs, and just more flexible and playable than before. I much prefer this new marc!

I've not really tried out the shorts that much yet but i'm sure there is improvement in this regards as well. I love that Alex has updated this and it has the features that I wanted updated for CSS including the lower latency legato, noise reduction, brighter mix (improved mix), control over 2 spot mics, and a better marc patch that has playable and effective runs.

For me 1.7 is a marked improvement over 1.5 in all the areas that count for me.


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## Aitcpiano (Sep 5, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> Seems 1.7 has a lot less mud...much more focused and clear compared to the old CSS. Unfortunately, I deleted my old folder to make room for the new one so I can't do direct comparisons...LOL.


I did a few direct comparisons just playing between the two libraries and 1.7 does seem less muddy, more focused and clear than the older CSS. Its a brighter mix which I prefer.


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## Casiquire (Sep 5, 2022)

I agree with the other thoughts. In isolation we like the warmth of the original sound but in practice, in any kind of a mix, you'd want less mud and more clarity. They still sound warm and expressive. They allow for greater variety of orchestration when there's no unnecessary mud. You can orchestrate that warmth


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## muziksculp (Sep 5, 2022)

Hi,

I mentioned that I was very fond of the Sordino Shorts in CSS 1.7, so here is a short noodling with the *Full Ensemble* Patch, playing the shorts with Sordino enabled, I have multiple types of shorts being triggered in the midi.

I used a touch of Seventh Heaven Reverb, and some Low-Cut EQ at 24 hz. I didn't EQ any of the low-mid-high frequencies, so you get to hear the way they sound out of the box, I also have a Limiter on the Master output. That's it.

Cheers,
Muziksculp

View attachment CSS 1.7 Sordino Shorts Ensemble Patch V2.mp3


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## madfloyd (Sep 6, 2022)

I'm experiencing an issue with 1.7 that I don't experience with any other instrument, including other Cinematic Studio Series products (or any other Kontakt instrument). I'm using Studio One but because it's limited to CSS 1.7 I'm not sure it's relevant.

Immediately after stopping my transport, CSS 1.7 will ignore the next midi note played. Just silence... 

Anyone else?


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> I'm experiencing an issue with 1.7 that I don't experience with any other instrument, including other Cinematic Studio Series products (or any other Kontakt instrument). I'm using Studio One but because it's limited to CSS 1.7 I'm not sure it's relevant.
> 
> Immediately after stopping my transport, CSS 1.7 will ignore the next midi note played. Just silence...
> 
> Anyone else?


I will check if I experience this issue. 

Is this happening with all articulations ? or just some ? 

So, if you have a sequence of notes, and you stop the transport, and play from that point again, the first note that is supposed to play doesn't sound, but the one after it does. Just double checking to make sure I understand what you are experiencing. 

S1Pro 5.5.2 here (Windwos 10), are you on Mac ?


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2022)

Hi @madfloyd ,

I tested on my system, I don't experience any issues like you describe. 

Do you have Chase Long MIDI notes enabled in (Advanced-Midi Options) menu ? Not sure if this is the cause of your issue, but if it is not enabled, I recommend you enable it, and test.


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## madfloyd (Sep 6, 2022)

Thanks for testing. I'm pretty sure I have the chase feature enabled.

Basically I hit play on Studio One transport, then hit stop. Then play a note on my keyboard. Studio One arranger shows midi input, but Kontakt doesn't show output (nor do I hear anything). If I play a note again all is well. Weird. This happens on all 1.7 instruments and all articulations.

I'm away from my DAW at the moment but when I get back to it, I'll reboot and experiment some more.


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> Thanks for testing. I'm pretty sure I have the chase feature enabled.
> 
> Basically I hit play on Studio One transport, then hit stop. Then play a note on my keyboard. Studio One arranger shows midi input, but Kontakt doesn't show output (nor do I hear anything). If I play a note again all is well.  Weird. This happens on all 1.7 instruments and all articulations.
> 
> I'm away from my DAW at the moment but when I get back to it, I'll reboot and experiment some more.


OK, I tested again following your procedure to see if the same happens here, and Yes, it does. But the interesting thing is if you play some notes, then press, play and stop on the transport, then immediately play a note, that note is silent. On the other hand, if you wait an extra second or two after you stop the transport, then play a note, the note sounds, kind of odd, not sure what is causing this.

Try waiting a second or two after you hit stop, and the first note you play will not be silent.


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## madfloyd (Sep 6, 2022)

I just discovered the same thing - if you wait a bit the note will sound. Weird. I first noticed it because I was trying to learn something by ear, so I'd play a reference track, then stop and start to mimic it and get silence.


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> I just discovered the same thing - if you wait a bit the note will sound. Weird. I first noticed it because I was trying to learn something by ear, so I'd play a reference track, then stop and start to mimic it and get silence.


I'm glad we know how to fix it, by just waiting for a second before playing again. But the odd thing is this only happens with CSS 1.7 , I tried other libraries, and none have this issue. So, it must be something specific in CSS 1.7 that is causing this hiccup.

I'm also curious if other DAW users are experiencing this minor issue ? or is it only specific to Studio One Pr 5 ?


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## Pablocrespo (Sep 6, 2022)

Cubase here, and it has been long time problem of CSW in my system (I use VEP to host them), now it happens with CSS 1.7, so there must be something with some scripting newer than CSS 1.5.

I reachead out to Alex today to know if he is aware and if there is any fix.


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## xanderscores (Sep 6, 2022)

15 pages thread are probably enough enthusiasm, but I'll say it anyway: The runs using the marcato legato are A BLAST! Really sounding sensational! Now I can finally let out my inner Williams.


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## gohrev (Sep 7, 2022)

Quick and dirty little mock-up of the first 8 bars of Flight of the Bumble Bee



Marcato legato with spiccato overlay, 1st spot & 2nd spot mics, and just a bit of room


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## madfloyd (Sep 7, 2022)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> So make it an ear training exercise. Shouldnt be that hard. Just triads up and down.


Haha easy for you to say. I'm 4 hours in and still on the first bar. I suck :(


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## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 7, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> Haha easy for you to say. I'm 4 hours in and still on the first bar. I suck :(


Just from my experience. Stick with it until light comes into the dark. Even if it lasts 4 days. You benefit enormously from that. Take just a few notes (a short snippet) and concentrate on that. Repeat and repeat it- just a few notes. You are going to start to hear things you wouldn't have dreamed of. Of course you should have a piano at hand to check out. And you might slow down the tempo . I know it's tough in the beginning. It is how I learned jazz improvisation. Transcribing solos for years. In the beginning with a cassette recorder and sometimes not even knowing the tunes. You start to recognise the patterns and realise hardly anything is random.
Sorry for going off topic. Back to CSS. Wonderful update btw.


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## EricValette (Sep 7, 2022)

Not very original, but here is a new test of CSS 1.7 "runs" on the beginning of "Hedwig's Theme" (programmed with @ricoderks "Project Colossal Template")


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## Hat_Tricky (Sep 8, 2022)

How big should 1.7 be? I copied my CSS folder, renamed it CSS original (like the email from Alex said) and then had the Native Inst downlaoded reinstall. Now my 1.7 CSS is 109GB large (!!!) and the CSS original is 65gb! This doesn't sound right, is this consistent with the rest of you?


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## Xabierus Music (Sep 8, 2022)

Hat_Tricky said:


> How big should 1.7 be? I copied my CSS folder, renamed it CSS original (like the email from Alex said) and then had the Native Inst downlaoded reinstall. Now my 1.7 CSS is 109GB large (!!!) and the CSS original is 65gb! This doesn't sound right, is this consistent with the rest of you?


Maybe it has some bug fixes inside? But it would be 1.8 then, i dont know


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## Akarin (Sep 8, 2022)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Alright, I have to admit, that I'm a VISTA fanboy, but I wanted to give the new CSS 1.7 a new try on one of my tracks that I'm working on... so here it is. Did a bunch of EQing on the 1.7 to get it closer to the sound of Vista and used the close Mics and the Room (not Main). I do love the expanded functionality with CSS's Marcatos etc compared to just the Vista Legatos...
> 
> Would love to know which you like better?
> 
> ...


CSS, by a long shot. The Vista vibrato is really too much.


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## Stevie (Sep 9, 2022)

Highly depends on the use case.


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## Vik (Sep 9, 2022)

Stevie said:


> Highly depends on the use case


Sure. Still: CSS sounds (after 1.7) closer to what I like with Vista, and CSS has vibrato control. IMO both are great libraries.


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## handz (Sep 9, 2022)

EricValette said:


> Not very original, but here is a new test of CSS 1.7 "runs" on the beginning of "Hedwig's Theme" (programmed with @ricoderks "Project Colossal Template")



Sounds cool!


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## EricValette (Sep 9, 2022)

handz said:


> Sounds cool!


Thanks a lot! 

CSS 1.7 is pure joy to work with!.. can't wait for the CSB 1.7 update too which looks very promising listening to the short snippet in the middle of Alex's demo video of the CSS 1.7 update


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## muziksculp (Sep 10, 2022)

Hi,

I came across this video on YT, and I thought it would be interesting, and useful to post it here, especially for CSS 1.7 fans  .




Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Jonny487 (Sep 16, 2022)

Does anyone have a Cubase expression map for 1.7? The one I had before is no longer working properly. I've never been able to wrap my head around setting them up especially as I think it's extra complex for CSS. Any help would be much appreciated thanks


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## BassClef (Sep 16, 2022)

Do you mean articulation sets? Babylonwaves... they have sets for nearly all libraries, including Cinematic Studio Series. they will soon release an update that will cover the 1.7 version of CSS. Unfortunately they do not sell sets individually. You have to buy them all as a package deal, even if you only need a few of them.


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## lettucehat (Sep 16, 2022)

Seems like they don't need to update the articulation set for this, right?


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## BassClef (Sep 16, 2022)

lettucehat said:


> Seems like they don't need to update the articulation set for this, right?


According to an email from them just yesterday... they do.


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## lettucehat (Sep 16, 2022)

BassClef said:


> According to an email from them just yesterday... they do.


Oh I see... no trouble on my end so far but I haven't explored it much.


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## muziksculp (Sep 16, 2022)

Does anyone know what changed in terms of articulation key-switches in 1.7 compared to the previous version ?

It would be helpful if there was an updated user manual for CSS 1.7 

I also noticed that the CSS webpage has not been updated to reflect the new version's features, i.e. Spot mics, low-latency mode, ..etc. I'm sure Alex W. will get to do that when he has the time, he must be busy working on the updates.


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## NoamL (Sep 16, 2022)

The legato keyswitch moved from Bb0 to G#0. I expect Cinematic Studio Brass will eventually get that update too. It is because the Bassoon's bottom note is Bb0, so the legato keyswitch in Cinematic Studio Woodwinds had to move to G#0.

All other articulation keyswitches are unchanged. And if you're using CC58 to control articulations, it does appear from comparing the old and new manuals that nothing has changed there.


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## muziksculp (Sep 16, 2022)

NoamL said:


> And if you're using CC58 to control articulations, it does appear from comparing the old and new manuals that nothing has changed there.


Yes, I'm using CC58 to program my Sound-Variations in Studio One Pro 5. So, no need to edit anything. 

Thanks for the helpful feedback @NoamL


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## Tremendouz (Sep 16, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Does anyone know what changed in terms of articulation key-switches in 1.7 compared to the previous version ?
> 
> It would be helpful if there was an updated user manual for CSS 1.7
> 
> I also noticed that the CSS webpage has not been updated to reflect the new version's features, i.e. Spot mics, low-latency mode, ..etc. I'm sure Alex W. will get to do that when he has the time, he must be busy working on the updates.


Not articulation keyswitches but I noticed that the portamento velocity threshold has changed. It's now 10 when it used to be something higher.
Also, the basses vibrato x-fade CC is now 73 instead of 2 which seems like an oversight.


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## muziksculp (Sep 16, 2022)

Tremendouz said:


> Not articulation keyswitches but I noticed that the portamento velocity threshold has changed. It's now 10 when it used to be something higher.
> Also, the basses vibrato x-fade CC is now 73 instead of 2 which seems like an oversight.


Interesting, I will check these settings. 

Thanks for the helpful feedback.


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## MarkKouznetsov (Sep 17, 2022)

Anyone else getting bumpy legato transitions when the modwheel is around the middle?
This is so weird, I can swear those weren't there in 1.5.
It's like there's somekind of drastic volume increase right before the transition, it has that pumping effect. It's not there at the low dynamics, as well as the high, just in the middle.

View attachment 83517-38e9ada27f50f8cdacff760a60602d6a.mp3

0:18
0:20
0:22 and so on.

Those transitions are way too loud now.
It's like there's a grace note right before the next one is about to start. I tried both legato versions, no progress.

This affects most if not all instruments. Obviously, it's more exposed if the strings are isolated, and even more so, when you are using just one instrument.

Also, I've noticed that cello has some notes with timing issues, where a note would start way too early, comparing to all the other instruments in the section. Like, if you put everything on a grid, today, there was a bug where celli would play around 1.5-2 16th notes earlier. And that's right in the middle of an ongoing legato line.

🤷🏻 I'm probably going to be rolling back to v1.5 soon. While I appreciate the tighter short notes, better non-vibrato (I need it) and a new mic position, I can EQ it myself. What I can't fix are the legato transitions.

I know Alex has addressed it somewhere, but all mentioned was the expressive mode. And this happens in both. I don't remember, though: it's either identical or expressive legato suffers from even more severe bumps. Probably the 2nd, as I used to use that one most of the time, but was forced to switch after noticing that issue, due to the normal mode being "newer", thinking it would not have it.

I also remember stumbling on another issue. I think in violins 1? Not sure. When you hold a note, it will have this long arc, gradually increasing the volume, even though you're not moving your mod wheel, so you really have to turn it down to compensate the volume increase, otherwise it becomes way too loud. It's like the dynamics are continuing to rise, despite not moving the mod wheel, or moving it down.

Anyways, maybe it's just me.


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## Alex W (Sep 17, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Anyone else getting bumpy legato transitions when the modwheel is around the middle?
> This is so weird, I can swear those weren't there in 1.5.
> It's like there's somekind of drastic volume increase right before the transition, it has that pumping effect. It's not there at the low dynamics, as well as the high, just in the middle.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

Thanks for the feedback - I've fixed the legato bumps for the upcoming v1.7.1 update (for both low latency and expressive mode).

I encourage you to hold off on rolling back till you try this update - it's nearly ready. Going back to v1.5 and applying an EQ won't give you the same depth / clarity of sound that exists naturally in v1.7.

Regarding the cello timing issue, that should be fixable if you can send me a brief mp3 of it occurring. And again, if there are a couple of timing issues in the whole library, I guarantee that there are far fewer of these issues in 1.7 than in 1.5.

Same goes for the 1st violin issue - if you can please let me know which note is doing this, and I'll check it out.

Thanks!


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## MarkKouznetsov (Sep 18, 2022)

I've posted it in the other thread previously:


Alex W said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback - I've fixed the legato bumps for the upcoming v1.7.1 update (for both low latency and expressive mode).
> 
> ...


Oh, already? Yes, then, of course. 
Thanks for replying so fast!
I know you're mostly one guy who's working on that, but that's impressive, given how so many issues remain unaddressed with much, much bigger developers.

I'll try to find an example for other issues and post it/send it to you with pictures and detailed information.


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## Vik (Sep 18, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> It's like there's somekind of drastic volume increase right before the transition, it has that pumping effect. It's not there at the low dynamics, as well as the high, just in the middle.
> 
> your_browser_is_not_able_to_play_this_audio
> 0:18
> ...


I sometimes have that in other libraries – it's as if the level of the legato transitions sometimes doesn't 'obey' the automation. In some cases – and I don't know why – it helps just move the CC1 fader all the way up and then down to zero again. 

Nice little piece, btw!


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## jamwerks (Sep 18, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Here's one more example of the three approaches.
> 
> I'm not yet 100% satisfied with the MIDI programming on this mockup, so don't hold it against CSS v1.7! The example posted by @inthevoid earlier was more impressive.
> 
> ...



Saturation doesn't seem to bring anything pleasent to the mix!


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## MarkKouznetsov (Sep 18, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback - I've fixed the legato bumps for the upcoming v1.7.1 update (for both low latency and expressive mode).
> 
> ...


Hey, Alex! I just went back to those cues I had problems with yesterday (with celli and violins 1). Aaaand... those problems are gone, for some reason. I just couldn't replicate that volume boost in violins 1 (re-recorded automation like 10 times in a row, everything seems to be fine now, I guess).

Celli's bug, it appears, has a very simple explanation: it seems I somehow switched legatos to sustain. All good now. 🤦‍♂️

Anyways, thanks for (already) fixing everything, as it seems. I was starting to get Vietnam flashbacks from legatos, as it reminded me of some other lads' (you know, with a single seat fighter plane in their name).


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## MarkKouznetsov (Sep 18, 2022)

Since this is a thread of audio examples, and some of the readers may be people who are still undecided, whether if it's worth it buying CSS, I'm going to post 4 examples of how it sounds out of the box versus the various ways I (*personally, not telling you should do it how I do it) *ways you can, perhaps, tailor the sound of this wonderful library to your liking.

*Note: all examples have a bit of limiting on them, just to even the levels between the examples a bit; as well as reverb (same amount on all 4 examples). CSS is v1.7 in its current state.

1. Basic v1.7 | Standard mix / out of the box.*

View attachment 1_Stock.mp3


*2. Warm (v1.7) | Custom microphone mix. *

View attachment 2_warm.mp3


*3. Modern | With EQ, a bit of compression.*
_This cue is part of the pretty loud mix with a lot going on, so quite a bit of compression; not too much, but still (around 2.75:1). EQ'ed to my personal liking (I like a lot of detail and clarity, some may not, and it's okay)._

View attachment 3_modern.mp3


*4. Ultra-Modern | In-your-face*
_This is when I need a loud, but also a bigger, symphonic sound. Same level of compression (again, if it were just strings, I would use less); a bit more aggressive EQ, a tiny-tiny bit of Decapitator (the "Drive" knob is around 1; not cutting. boosting anything); almost dead multi-band compressor (the mids are moving by like 1 pixel down during the loudest moments), Gullfoss (I only use "Recover" and never above the value of "15")._

View attachment 4_ultra-modern.mp3


*BONUS: 5. Modern film score | Step #4 but even "bigger"*
Everything from the last one but even more aggressive EQ'ing (esp. the highs), a tiny bit more Decapitator, a tiny bit more Gullfoss (around 20% of "Recover"), much more reverb tail with high frequencies having a bit longer delay than the rest. I was sort-of trying to match it to the sound you hear on the scores recorded in Air Studios: more reverb, more crispy highs. At first, it seemed to me like it was way too much, but after A/B with some recent score, it's clear that even these settings are not quite reaching that amount of highs.

*Mod wheel data is slightly different in the 1st part, as I'm currently working on it. But it's not about that anyways.

View attachment 5_pushing it.mp3


Now, if you compare the 1st example with the 5th, there's quite a bit of a difference. Wow. And this is what makes it great: not many libraries allow for such variety and flexibility. It's either a tone you can't change because it's so processed already, or a room with some much reverb you can't get rid of it when you need. CSS allows you to shape all of it yourself, and that's why everyone loves it.
Best thing is: you don't need any expensive plug-ins to change it. Use your stock EQ. The reverb is built-in the library. Change microphone positions. There's a big difference between example 1 or 2 already and all I did was I pulled the "Room" mics by just 1 dB, and boosted "Spot 1" a bit and "Spot 2" even a little bit more.

Repetitions need to be mentioned, as well. These sound so good! I'm actually using them ALL the time, while previously I had to avoid doing so, because of the crappy transitions in other libraries. Previously I had to group/combine two notes into one to avoid weird sample behavior and I always thought: but I WANT to play two notes in succession here, I don't want to just "hold" one long note. Can't imagine working without it.

Runs, as well. The fact that you can program your own, without relying on pre-programed ones and it sounds just as good is amazing. Majority of libraries still struggle with that, it's either a blurred mess with individual note timings all over the place (either too early or too late, struggling) or sounds unnatural and synthy.

Hope that helps! And it still boggles my mind, how Alex has managed to make something all these big companies still struggling to do. I would love to see a symphonic size strings from him one day with more articulations (like sul tasto) and, perhaps, an option for separate articulations per patch.

_P.s.: re-uploaded the examples, because of course I had to mess up the arrangement while I was looking for bugs to report to Alex, and my celli were sharing the same part with violas (which is fine, just not how it used to be). All good now!_


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## Francisco Lamolda (Sep 21, 2022)

After trying it a little bit more, I can say that I like a lot this update for two reasons. First the vibrato update. I really like not to have to use the full super intense vibrato. Second, the new mix mic. My setup, even if it is not bad, it is neither good. So having a mix is the best for me. And now, the mix and the vibrato control allows me to get a sound that it is closer to the sound of strings that I like, BBCSO Strings. It is not the same, of course, but it is pretty close with reverb and eq. And I'm happy with that.

And the hanging notes of the longs seems fixed in cubase!!


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## MarkKouznetsov (Sep 21, 2022)

Fingers crossed for a CSSS update, as well. I think it desperately needs it, much more than any other of the CS libraries, although, I can see why it would be the very last in the line for it.

I would love an extra dynamic layer at the top, especially violins. I love the sound and it makes for such great quartet/quintet setups, marvelous. It's just it feels like when you're really reaching that swell during the most emotional moments, the library just chokes. Cello and viola, at least, somewhat bring it a bit further, but the violin I (and, perhaps, II) just stop midway, and it's so unsatisfying :( It's like playing a piano, you start very quiet and fragile, you make a crescendo, more, more a-and... nothing, because you can only play up to mf.

And it's not the volume, it's that quality of higher dynamics. Spitfire Solo Strings have that, but the sound and playability is pretty terrible IMHO. I tried using them on a commercial product once (automating everything, expression/dynamics/vibrato/ some other stuff) and every time I hear it, I cringe. It has that metallic and nasal quality to it.

CSSS has got the sound, but it's pretty buggy (notes hanging even when there is no midi data playing; like currently, I have 4 parts playing legato, then it's just solo cello, and for some reason, the violin II starts hanging a high note during every other playback, even though, no midi notes are programmed for it). It would also benefit from improved non-vibrato (both the way it progresses, right now it's like on or off only AND the legato transitions between notes; again, right now it's detache most of the time, there is no connection between some/most of the notes at all (big auditable breaks between notes).

*Update: *_by the way, I'm currently looking at the waveform, violin I IS weaker (by a lot), even comparing to Vl. II, same dynamics/midi data. Wow. I had to boost it on a fader by +6dB to even match Violin II (which, in turn, is weaker then Va. and Vc., but that's understandably so)._


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 21, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Since this is a thread of audio examples, and some of the readers may be people who are still undecided, whether if it's worth it buying CSS, I'm going to post 4 examples of how it sounds out of the box versus the various ways I (*personally, not telling you should do it how I do it) *ways you can, perhaps, tailor the sound of this wonderful library to your liking.
> 
> *Note: all examples have a bit of limiting on them, just to even the levels between the examples a bit; as well as reverb (same amount on all 4 examples). CSS is v1.7 in its current state.
> 
> ...


Hey Mark! Maybe it's me but I hear all your examples a bit saturated, even the first one. The last one already too much, already distortion I can hear. Maybe something went wrong or is the sound you like? (which is totally legit)


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## MarkKouznetsov (Sep 21, 2022)

Gabriel S. said:


> Hey Mark! Maybe it's me but I hear all your examples a bit saturated, even the first one. The last one already too much, already distortion I can hear. Maybe something went wrong or is the sound you like? (which is totally legit)


It's the audio quality. It compresses pretty hard when you upload. I made these examples decently loud and planned to upload in WAV format, but it only takes MP3, so I had to convert. And then, after upload, it downsamples it to like 128kbit/s again.

But most likely what you hear are the basses. They have that sound in this library, especially the Spot mics, and when you clean up the build-up in the low-mids, you will hear the that raspy tone.

I can assure there is no saturation in examples 1-3 at all. And everything else has a tiny bit of Decapitator with a drive less then 1.5.


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## kupo15 (Sep 21, 2022)

Have to say, really pleased with this new 1.7 strings and it couldn't have come at a better time. I've needed to get back into composing and mocking up again and this was the perfect opportunity to test out the new strings. Still in the middle of mocking this up but wanted to share my piece to show my appreciation and support for the upgrade.

This piece was 100% mocked up with 1.7 from the ground up, not transitioned from 1.5. All mix mics, no reverb, nothing fancy. This shows off the high violins in the background giving a nice, eerie, haunting quality then there is a section with all playing in octaves, really opens up the sound. Still have a bit of work to do but very very happy with the results so far. Hope you all like it.

Thanks so much @Alex W for a wonder library, I happily would have paid to upgrade. Looking forward to the remaining 1.7 updates and of course CSP! 

View attachment Rising Spirit - Kira's Stage Magical Forest V2.mp3


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## Francisco Lamolda (Sep 22, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Fingers crossed for a CSSS update, as well. I think it desperately needs it, much more than any other of the CS libraries, although, I can see why it would be the very last in the line for it.


The other day Alex himself told me by email that he is working on the 1.7 of CSSS. And that he is fixing the issue of the hanging notes. But I think that the update will probably be like CSS 1.7, with no new content. Just fixing and a legato, runs and shorts update.






P.S. I wish other companies (many of which have larger teams than CSS) would make the same effort to update/fix their products.


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## muziksculp (Sep 24, 2022)




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## muziksculp (Sep 24, 2022)

@Akarin ,

Thanks for the YT podcast above. 

Regarding the bumps in the legato transition, try playing the legatos, while having the sustain-pedal enabled, they will sound smooth as ver 1.5 .

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Akarin (Sep 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> @Akarin ,
> 
> Thanks for the YT podcast above.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I've also read that Alex is working on 1.7.1 and that it will be fixed.


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## muziksculp (Sep 25, 2022)

Akarin said:


> Thanks! I've also read that Alex is working on 1.7.1 and that it will be fixed.


You're Welcome. 

Yes, Alex is fixing this in 1.7.1


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## nickhmusic (Sep 26, 2022)

Alex W, thank you, you're a legend. Here's a quick example from Elgar's Nimrod, I've been playing around with the Spot 1 and 2 microphones, and they make such a huge difference, because you can blend to taste, automate them when you need more room, but it's my first try since updating to 1.7. Bit of Lexi PCM Random Hall for tail, some Lo Cut to the Violins and Violas.

First example with the Room Tone I usually use (so this is my addition, not the samples)
Second example I've just muted my Room Tone sample.

Lovely to work with, sounds really superb and Low Latency mode making it even easier to massage those notes.

(even if I am currently without a mouse, a keyboard and on a very tired old laptop!)

Cheers.

View attachment CSS 1_7 With Room Tone_03.mp3


View attachment CSS 1_7 No Room Tone_01.mp3


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## Peter Satera (Sep 29, 2022)

@Alex W 

I have been struggling with a different problem with updates that have been rolled up for 1.7, and it happens for me in the woodwinds too. When I _stop and start_ a section to replay it the sound cuts out entirely and struggles to playback upon starting again. 

It doesn't matter if it's slow or fast, long or short. 1.5 it always plays, I can start stop, start quickly and it will always retrigger. Whereas in 1.7 when I stop it sounds like it gets choked and then delays the sound coming in, cutting out the start.

As you can see it also occurs for woodwinds (which I was hoping was isolated to them, which is why I kept 1.5). The brass, as they aren't updated are fine. Dragging the scrub while it's playing has no issues, letting it loop has no problems, but starting and stopping the segment has issues.

This is in FL Studio (if anyone else has the update in FL Could you try too?).

I have tried it in Cubase Pro 11, and it has the same 'cut out' 'choke' sound, but it will play from the start fine.

----
[EDIT] Looks like im not the only one, and not just in FL.


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## THW (Sep 29, 2022)

Peter Satera said:


> @Alex W
> 
> I have been struggling with a different problem with updates that have been rolled up for 1.7, and it happens for me in the woodwinds too. When I _stop and start_ a section to replay it the sound cuts out entirely and struggles to playback upon starting again.
> 
> ...


In Studio One when quickly triggering play/stop in 1.7 the first note in section is not playing. This only happens when quickly triggering play/stop and performs as expected if I give it a second. No issues when section is looped. Do not have 1.5 so am not sure if this is normal. Edit: watched the video and experiencing the same thing in S1.


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## Bluemount Score (Sep 29, 2022)

Peter Satera said:


> @Alex W
> 
> I have been struggling with a different problem with updates that have been rolled up for 1.7, and it happens for me in the woodwinds too. When I _stop and start_ a section to replay it the sound cuts out entirely and struggles to playback upon starting again.
> 
> ...


I use FL Studio as well and can confirm this


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## Peter Satera (Sep 29, 2022)

Bluemount Score said:


> I use FL Studio as well and can confirm this





THW said:


> In Studio One when quickly triggering play/stop in 1.7 the first note in section is not playing. This only happens when quickly triggering play/stop and performs as expected if I give it a second. No issues when section is looped. Do not have 1.5 so am not sure if this is normal. Edit: watched the video and experiencing the same thing in S1.


Thank you both! It's sometimes reassuring to know it's reproducible, and it's not an isolated problem.


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## Akarin (Sep 29, 2022)

Peter Satera said:


> Thank you both! It's sometimes reassuring to know it's reproducible, and it's not an isolated problem.


I use Cubase Pro 12 only and the same happens. Even happened when bouncing stems. Had one where the first note didn't play in it.


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## Osoch (Oct 6, 2022)

Seems great! 
One question, I've made a whole articulation map in Logic for CSS, but are the keyswitches the same for this new version? Or would I have to remake my articulation map again (pls no)


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## NoamL (Oct 6, 2022)

Osoch said:


> Seems great!
> One question, I've made a whole articulation map in Logic for CSS, but are the keyswitches the same for this new version? Or would I have to remake my articulation map again (pls no)


Legato KS has moved from A#0 to G#0. Other than that it's the same. I think this change will also come to CSB (it's already implemented in CSW).


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## MarkKouznetsov (Oct 7, 2022)

I can confirm. Hanging notes are happening with everything: solo strings, strings, woodwinds and brass. Both in Cubase 12 and Studio One. Brass, especially, gives me a headache when programming. because it's so loud. :D

Anyways, a final (quite different) arrangement of the string section from my last example (with added CSSS):


View attachment +3.mp3



I thought f*ck it, let's go full romantic divisi on that one. The only thing I improved in the final track is a modwheel data at 0:18, just to give violins a little more push for that rise.


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## RogiervG (Oct 7, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> I can confirm. Hanging notes are happening with everything: solo strings, strings, woodwinds and brass. Both in Cubase 12 and Studio One. Brass, especially, gives me a headache when programming. because it's so loud. :D
> 
> Anyways, a final (quite different) arrangement of the string section from my last example (with added CSSS):
> 
> ...


that's not heard often, hanging notes on very frequent scale.
so, should i go for the full cinematic studio series (i have css). or.....


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## muziksculp (Oct 7, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Hanging notes are happening with everything: solo strings, strings, woodwinds and brass. Both in Cubase 12 and Studio One. Brass, especially, gives me a headache when programming. because it's so loud. :D


Hanging notes meaning stuck midi notes ? I don't recall having this type of issues with any of these libraries in S1Pro 5 and now 6. But I will check again. 

When do you get the hanging/stuck note problem, i.e. when playing legatos, or shorts, or marcatos, or ... ? can you be a bit more specific. 


MarkKouznetsov said:


> Anyways, a final (quite different) arrangement of the string section from my last example (with added CSSS):


Sounds very good. Thanks for sharing.


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## Illico (Oct 7, 2022)

@Akarin @Peter Satera @Bluemount Score @MarkKouznetsov, Nice to share your issues, but did you contact @Alex W or opened a ticket on https://cinematicseries.zendesk.com/ ?


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## clisma (Oct 7, 2022)

I get stuck notes with the whole CSS series (Strings, Brass, Woods) ALL THE TIME in Logic. I also have Note chasing enabled. The quickest way for me to stop them from ringing is to go back or forward by one bar/marker.


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## MarkKouznetsov (Oct 7, 2022)

clisma said:


> I get stuck notes with the whole CSS series (Strings, Brass, Woods) ALL THE TIME in Logic. I also have Note chasing enabled. The quickest way for me to stop them from ringing is to go back or forward by one bar/marker.


yup, this is how it works for me too. I believe that's a legato problem, but not sure. Definitely not shorts.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 7, 2022)

I get stuck notes with CSS 1.7 all the time too.
(Windows 11 and Cubase 12.whatever)


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## Kubler (Oct 9, 2022)

Hey everyone,

Although I'm very happy with this update and everything it introduces, I thought I'd bring up something specific that saddens me a bit at the moment – the fact that the new fast run feature cannot be disabled. I loved taking advantage of legato marcatos in v1.5 to achieve a sort of détaché effect that worked really well on ostinati, and can't seem to be reproduced now with v1.7. Below is a quick comparison from a WIP I'm onto these days (strings only)

v1.5 :
View attachment CSS 1-5.mp3


v1.7 :
View attachment CSS 1-7.mp3


The first up-and-down run works wonderfully with v1.7 within the full orchestral context, but everything that follows sounds mostly blurry, especially the tutti parts. I spent quite some time tweaking the programming to fix it, but I've been unable to achieve the same clear and nervous sound I had before and I'm pretty sure the fast run feature won't let me to, which breaks my heart 😔

Unrelated, but the lower dynamics for sustains and legatos on the violins 2 are way louder than they should be and I can't have a proper descrescendo without using an additional volume-related CC, is it just me?

I'll open tickets for both issues. Aside from those, I love this update – neat new mix, new mics and new runs! Can't wait to be able to use it to its full potential 😍


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## NoamL (Oct 9, 2022)

That's definitely better in 1.5 @Kubler .

I'd like to mess around with this... if you are okay with it! If so, would you please upload the v1.5 MIDI? I'm wondering if there's a way to get that detache sound in v1.7 by carefully tweaking the note endings.

In extremis, you could experiment with having 2 copies of each instrument and breaking up the arpeggio as alternating notes across two tracks. So the first instrument track gets notes 1, 3, 5... this might help the script read the notes as detache. Just an idea.


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

@NoamL Sure thing, here is the MIDI excerpt for the audio!

This isn't a bad idea, but the tails of the runs sound a bit too long for something that fast – this is why I also made each last note noticably shorter. I'm not convinced that it would sound much less muddy… My emergency plan is that everything become spiccato, but that would be a shame honestly. Fingers crossed that Alex hears me out on this!


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## Stevie (Oct 10, 2022)

Another thing I found better in 1.5 are the measured trems.
They connect way better in 1.5 than in 1.7.
Glad we can still use both versions.


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## Sovereign (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Although I'm very happy with this update and everything it introduces, I thought I'd bring up something specific that saddens me a bit at the moment – the fact that the new fast run feature cannot be disabled. I loved taking advantage of legato marcatos in v1.5 to achieve a sort of détaché effect that worked really well on ostinati, and can't seem to be reproduced now with v1.7. Below is a quick comparison from a WIP I'm onto these days (strings only)
> 
> ...


Hmm, perhaps I'm wrong, but when I load up your midi in my v1.7 it doesn't sound as blurry as in your example.

Alex has promised to fix the lower dynamics for vlns2, he removed the p layer and he will put it back in again.
View attachment Mixdown(24).mp3


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

Sovereign said:


> Hmm, perhaps I'm wrong, but when I load up your midi in my v1.7 it doesn't sound as blurry as in your example.
> 
> Alex has promised to fix the lower dynamics for vlns2, he removed the p layer and he will put it back in again.


It sounds clearer indeed, it's because your export is dry while mine has the strings sent to a reverb. Nevertheless, I think that the "edge" of v1.5's détaché effect is lost even though it can be musically very invaluable to situations like this


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## Sovereign (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> It sounds clearer indeed, it's because your export is dry while mine has the strings sent to a reverb. Nevertheless, I think that the "edge" of v1.5's détaché effect is lost even though it can be musically very invaluable to situations like this


Perhaps you're using more verb than me and that accounts for any difference, but my export is not dry. I sent it through 1.8s decay time, Large and Deep preset, 7thHPro. Could you post a dry version from 1.5?


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

Sovereign said:


> Perhaps you're using more verb than me and that accounts for any difference, but my export is not dry. I sent it through 1.8s decay time, Large and Deep preset, 7thHPro. Could you post a dry version from 1.5?


Here are the solo'd strings without reverb

v1.5 :
View attachment OF STRINGS CSS 1-5.mp3


v1.7 :
View attachment OF STRINGS CSS 1-7.mp3


And here is the full context (with reverb), in case it helps

v1.5 :
View attachment OF FULL CSS 1-5.mp3


v1.7 :
View attachment OF FULL CSS 1-7.mp3


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## axb312 (Oct 10, 2022)

Stevie said:


> Another thing I found better in 1.5 are the measured trems.
> They connect way better in 1.5 than in 1.7.
> Glad we can still use both versions.


@Alex W


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> And here is the full context (with reverb), in case it helps
> 
> v1.5 :
> View attachment OF FULL CSS 1-5.mp3
> ...


I like 1.7 more here. A much more natural and convincing performance of the string section. 1.5 sounds more like a spiccato-staccatissimo.


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Is this the CSS 1.7 Marcato with Legato enabled ?


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I like 1.7 more here. A much more natural and convincing performance of the string section. 1.5 sounds more like a spiccato-staccatissimo.


I agree, this is what I meant in my original post when I said that the first runs worked very well. The problem is that the "B parts" are supposed to be détaché-like ostinati, not runs, and I unfortunately can't do it anymore unless I can deactivate/reactivate the feature at will, as I can with legatos and sordino



muziksculp said:


> Is this the CSS 1.7 Marcato with Legato enabled ?


It is, yes, I just checked.


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## Illico (Oct 10, 2022)

Hi @Kubler, did you use Expression Map and did you update with new 1.7 assignment? 
I will check your midi file tonight.


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I like 1.7 more here. A much more natural and convincing performance of the string section. 1.5 sounds more like a spiccato-staccatissimo.


I agree. 1.7 has a much more natural flow to it, especially when heard in context.


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> The problem is that the "B parts" are supposed to be détaché-like ostinati, not runs, and I unfortunately can't do it anymore unless I can deactivate/reactivate the feature at will, as I can with legatos and sordino


So, why are you not using the short articulations instead of Marcato ? 

How about using the non-legato Marcato, have you tried that ?


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## Illico (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> Here are the solo'd strings without reverb
> 
> v1.5 :
> View attachment OF STRINGS CSS 1-5.mp3
> ...


@Kubler, I loaded your midi file on an empty Cubase project, and mixdown both CSS versions.
I had the same results. First I notice differences in dynamics between versions, V1.7 is more louder.
Then, I agree with you that the V1.5 had more "détaché" in the Marcato(with overlay) than V1.7
In your context I perfer the V1.5 version.


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> So, why are you not using the short articulations instead of Marcato ?
> 
> How about using the non-legato Marcato, have you tried that ?


Well that's the thing, I want something that sounds "on the string" and short articulations can't help with this. I haven't done any attempt with the legato disabled though, I'll try that later and post a heads-up if there is a positive development ^^

@Illico Yeah I updated my Babylonewaves expression maps pack, the latest one has CSS v1.7. Prior to that the only issue was precisely that I couldn't disable the legato anymore lol


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> Well that's the thing, I want something that sounds "on the string" and short articulations can't help with this.


Stacc. and Staccatisimo are on-the-string shorts. Spicc. is not.


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Stacc. and Staccatisimo are on-the-string shorts. Spicc. is not.


But they still result in an "impact on each note" sound, and having them connect properly is extremely dependent on having the right tempo


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> But they still result in an "impact on each note" sound, and having them connect properly is extremely dependent on having the right tempo


In the real world, that depends on bow speed, and pressure, you could have less of an impact on each note playing Stacc. I can even think that Portato bowing would be what you are looking for.


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> In the real world, that depends on bow speed, and pressure, you could have less of an impact on each note playing Stacc. I can even think that Portato bowing would be what you are looking for.


Well, to be honest I would have been able to easily circumnavigate my current issue if it was possible to tweak the release of short notes (unless I'm an idiot and it's already a thing?), but without this using the portato bowing – I assume you're refering to the very top of CSS's short articulations – is just going to be a muddy mess 😔 

Again, my plan B is to make the faulty excerpt full staccs if the library is to stay as it currently is, but I really hope an update regarding this will be considered. The legato marcatos of v1.5 were very easy to use and sounded great outside of runs, at least they did to me


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> I assume you're refering to the very top of CSS's short articulations – is just going to be a muddy mess 😔


No, that's not what I'm referring to. That's a Sfz. short, not suitable for what you want, I was suggesting a portato (which is a on the bow, short bowing pulses) I don't think CSS has this type of articulation. 

I agree that some control of the length of the short articulation releases would be very helpful to have. There are Attack, and Release controls for the Sustains, but not the shorts.


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> No, that's not what I'm referring to. That's a Sfz. short, not suitable for what you want, I was suggesting a portato (which is a on the bow, short bowing pulses) I don't think CSS has this type of articulation.
> 
> I agree that some control of the length of the short articulation releases would be very helpful to have. There are Attack, and Release controls for the Sustains, but not the shorts.


Ah! Yes, either way it's something that's not currently in the library ahah. Hopefully it finds its way into a future update.


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Hi @Kubler ,

Here is your midi using CSS 1.7 Marcato (Non-Legato), I just used a bit of Liquid Sonics 'Lustrous Plates' reverb, and a limiter on the master bus, no EQ, or anything else on the mix.

Oh, I used Spot Mics 1 & 2, and Room Mic for all the sections. 

View attachment OF Midi Test Muziksculp CSS 1.7.mp3


What do you think ?

Chees,
Muziksculp


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## Kubler (Oct 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Kubler ,
> 
> Here is your midi using CSS 1.7 Marcato (Non-Legato), I just used a bit of Liquid Sonics 'Lustrous Plates' reverb, and a limiter on the master bus, no EQ, or anything else on the mix.
> 
> ...


Sounds way cleaner than what I have on my end at the moment! The attacks are still a tiny bit too harsh for my liking, but I doubt it will be noticable with the rest of the orchestra and percs on top of it, and there aren't a bunch of release tails overlapping each other.

I'll definitely try this solution once I get back to this track. Thanks a lot for taking the time to demo it!


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## muziksculp (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> Sounds way cleaner than what I have on my end at the moment! The attacks are still a tiny bit too harsh for my liking, but I doubt it will be noticable with the rest of the orchestra and percs on top of it, and there aren't a bunch of release tails overlapping each other.
> 
> I'll definitely try this solution once I get back to this track. Thanks a lot for taking the time to demo it!


Sure, You're very welcome.


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## Peter Satera (Oct 10, 2022)

Illico said:


> @Akarin @Peter Satera @Bluemount Score @MarkKouznetsov, Nice to share your issues, but did you contact @Alex W or opened a ticket on https://cinematicseries.zendesk.com/ ?


Yes, I have sent them the message.


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## Tinesaeriel (Oct 10, 2022)

Thought I'd contribute some of my own most recent writing featuring the new 1.7 CSS! A remake of a very, very old piece I made way back in 2013/2014.

Really loving it so far - the Mix mic is especially one of my new favorite features in this version, as are the new and improved runs and shorts. The sonic quality of the library is easily up there now with a of other strings library, in my opinion.

Both the full piece and the strings only version; the woodwinds and brass are both CSW and CSB, and featuring the Harp from the Kontakt Factory Library, and the Roon Piano from Metropolis Ark 2.
View attachment Henrietta.mp3

View attachment Henrietta - Strings Only.mp3


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## Alex W (Oct 10, 2022)

Kubler said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Although I'm very happy with this update and everything it introduces, I thought I'd bring up something specific that saddens me a bit at the moment – the fact that the new fast run feature cannot be disabled. I loved taking advantage of legato marcatos in v1.5 to achieve a sort of détaché effect that worked really well on ostinati, and can't seem to be reproduced now with v1.7. Below is a quick comparison from a WIP I'm onto these days (strings only)
> 
> ...


Hi Kubler,

Nice piece, very cool! However, I think this is another example of creating something with v1.5 and then trying to use the same (more or less) MIDI data with v1.7. The main difference between the two versions, as far as this specific passage is concerned, is that v1.5 triggers additional layered short notes during legato passages, whereas v1.7 does not. That's why you can hear a more pronounced attack on every new note.

While this can sound fine on some passages (like yours), I think that more often than not, it sounds less realistic. However a similar vibe can be achieved in v1.7; here is my quick attempt at the first phrase (it's all I had time for): 

View attachment kubleredit.mp4


To me, this feels like a more "realistic" performance of that passage, because in the v1.5 version, it sounds like the players are aggressively digging their bows into the strings on every single note - more aggressively than I think a real section would.

Whereas in my version, I broke up the phrasing into a few separate sets of bows, by leaving a gap between some notes (and thereby creating an accent on the next note), and slurring other sets of notes where appropriate. The run-mode effect doesn't really come into play here, as the tempo is a bit too slow for it to be treated as a "run" by the script, but you can still hear the extra smoothness in note transitions, which is another feature exclusive to v1.7. If you still want more aggression, you could add another MIDI track and layer some staccatissimos over the top.

By the way, there's another feature that I mentioned in the v1.7 release-notes document. While playing a legato passage with the Marcato articulation, if you play a new legato note at a velocity of >74, it will trigger a more aggressive legato transition. <75 produces a more subdued slurred legato. The difference between these two is subtle, but useful - definitely something to take into account while tweaking phrases.

Anyway, all in all, of course there are no "correct" answers here, but overall the Marcato articulation in v1.7 can execute a far greater variety of realistic phrases than were ever possible with v1.5. And while it may be possible to find one passage or another that sounds better with 1.5, these should be few and far between.

And lastly, regarding the 2nd violins dynamics - I have fixed that for the upcoming update.

Thanks again, hope that helps!


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## Rob Elliott (Oct 11, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Hi Kubler,
> 
> Nice piece, very cool! However, I think this is another example of creating something with v1.5 and then trying to use the same (more or less) MIDI data with v1.7. The main difference between the two versions, as far as this specific passage is concerned, is that v1.5 triggers additional layered short notes during legato passages, whereas v1.7 does not. That's why you can hear a more pronounced attack on every new note.
> 
> ...


...and the award goes to Alex Wallbank for one of the most helpful 'in real use' tips given. Thanks Alex.


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## Kubler (Oct 11, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Hi Kubler,
> 
> Nice piece, very cool! However, I think this is another example of creating something with v1.5 and then trying to use the same (more or less) MIDI data with v1.7. The main difference between the two versions, as far as this specific passage is concerned, is that v1.5 triggers additional layered short notes during legato passages, whereas v1.7 does not. That's why you can hear a more pronounced attack on every new note.
> 
> ...


Hey Alex,

I agree with Rob – thank you so much for taking the time to outright fix my programming! I had taken your warning into account and tried to adjust the MIDI for v1.7, but turns out I simply failed to test some solutions such as breaking up the phrasing. I think I understand how to make it work better now 

Also very happy to hear that an update is coming! Hopefully I'm allowed to perpetuate the Cinematic Series userbase's tradition of begging for a release date


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## RMH (Oct 13, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> I can confirm. Hanging notes are happening with everything: solo strings, strings, woodwinds and brass. Both in Cubase 12 and Studio One. Brass, especially, gives me a headache when programming. because it's so loud. :D
> 
> Anyways, a final (quite different) arrangement of the string section from my last example (with added CSSS):
> 
> ...


Amazing!
I would like to ask how you mixed the plug-in such as mic setting and EQ.


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## MarkKouznetsov (Oct 13, 2022)

RMH said:


> Amazing!
> I would like to ask how you mixed the plug-in such as mic setting and EQ.


I actually was experimenting with the new mics and subsequently EQ settings just today, to push it a bit further to that modern high end stuff, but at the same time, using less compression or saturation, and finally did it with great results!

Looks like you can push it much further with 1.7 and still avoid the hiss and noise. You have to scoop out the low mids and push the highs. And some of the mids (depending on your sound).

Best way, as I explained to others, just find a high quality string recording or, if you have another library that has a great tone (but not such great playability/usability), just mimick the sound of that. You'll be surprised how much you can cut, but also, boost in the highs (a lot!) You can really get that super sparkly clean sound (brighter/better then the example you liked). I actually went back, changed a mic balance a bit, and EQ'ed it to get even more high end but also, a fatter low end. It's so flexible, I love it.

I only boosted Spot 2 for that example, but after experimenting, I switched to Spot 1 instead (much prefer that sound; there's a bit of "in-your-face heaviness" that's exhausting to me over time in Spot 2, Spot 1 is much more organic/roomy, and it doesn't make the ensemble sound smaller, the mix just falls into place).

Just try things, A/B all the time. There are no "perfect" settings I can share with you, but I think I've found mine.

It might sound extreme when you clear the mud, at first (if you bypass EQ and compare to the original), but as soon as you listen to any modern score you'll immediately hear that: nope, I can cut even more low mids, I can boost a lot more highs.

You don't have to match it. Do what fits your music. But I love that sound, and yes, it's finally achievable in 1.7 without getting the noise/hiss. You can also easily narrow the stereo image in the CSS. It really works, I tried it today, just a bit, to get a more focused sound (again, if you listen to a modern score and drop a stereo plug in on it, you'll see that it's wide, but not too wide, that's why it translates so well on any system and has a more "focused" sound, when with samples it's a bit wishy-washy until you tweak it to your liking; yes, it sounds cool and wide in the studio, but when you listen to it on a phone's speakers, some audio information gets lost).


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## MarkKouznetsov (Oct 15, 2022)

Honestly, it's much more flexible now, in terms of how you can shape the sound: you're not stuck with the "out of the box" timbre. I still see many people hating (perhaps, a strong word) on the sound in the threads here, like: "Bought CSS 6 years ago. Honestly, I never use it because I hate that dark sound so much".

Understandable, CSS used to have that problem with the noise (as soon as you would boost just a tiny bit of the high end, it would introduce very noticeable hiss and noise). It could had its vintage "charm" if it was constant, but you could hear it changing with the note transitions, so it was a giveaway ("Samples!").

But now it's gone. I've been tinkering with another (rather busy) cue, but decided to share the sound you can get with it, after my latest experiments since the previous post with examples.

*Out of the box, but with custom microphone positions/panning.*

View attachment no_processing.mp3


*EQ'ed. (Tools used: FabFilter Pro Q-3, but it doesn't really matter)*

View attachment eq.mp3


*EQ'ed (In context: 80's/90's film score style but with a modern production)*

View attachment wow.mp3


Don't mind the arrangement. I love how to mix suddenly "opens up" in the 2nd example. But that's just me.

I think it kind of matches that modern Air sound (but with less reverb) and it's probably the furthest I can push it with just EQ


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## Flyo (Oct 15, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Kubler ,
> 
> Here is your midi using CSS 1.7 Marcato (Non-Legato), I just used a bit of Liquid Sonics 'Lustrous Plates' reverb, and a limiter on the master bus, no EQ, or anything else on the mix.
> 
> ...


Hi, a little out of topic question for users that have BBCSO Pro also… could we get something like these with strings sections on BBCSO Pro? These runs sounds really really powerful good and agile. And BBC don’t have any Marcato articulation either.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 15, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Hi, a little out of topic question for users that have BBCSO Pro also… could we get something like these with strings sections on BBCSO Pro? These runs sounds really really powerful good and agile. And BBC don’t have any Marcato articulation either.


No. You’ll have to get CSS if you want that.


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## Flyo (Oct 15, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> No. You’ll have to get CSS if you want that.


Simply as that? OMG 😓


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## RMH (Oct 15, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> *EQ'ed. (Tools used: FabFilter Pro Q-3, but it doesn't really matter)*


I hear a clear difference. When you touch the EQ, the clarity is good, and the position of the phase comes forward. Could you capture and share the pro-Q setting value?


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## Peter Satera (Oct 18, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> *EQ'ed (In context: 80's/90's film score style but with a modern production)*
> 
> View attachment wow.mp3
> 
> ...


Give. Me. Hear. More. Track. Now.
I got Bird on a Wire vibes from this. Love it!!


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## NoamL (Oct 20, 2022)

Yes it would be interesting to share & compare processing tips.

I usually broadly & subtly tame down the "low mids" just a few dB. And then a small boost to add some sparkle at 12-13kHz. And that's it really. Beyond that the only instrument section I'm still dissatisfied with is the cello, I tend to take down around 170Hz and also around 1.1kHz.

And then a stage reverb of course!

The new version of CSS is impressively improved in the mix IMO so a little goes a long way in fixes. The old version was much more difficult to work with. Chasing muddy frequencies and hiss sounds with dynamic EQ and it never fully worked!


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## Casiquire (Oct 20, 2022)

Peter Satera said:


> Give. Me. Hear. More. Track. Now.
> I got Bird on a Wire vibes from this. Love it!!


A very simple Spotify search letter and, let's just say, I'm really digging your music @MarkKouznetsov


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## amorphosynthesis (Oct 20, 2022)

Flyo said:


> And BBC don’t have any Marcato articulation either


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## xanderscores (Oct 21, 2022)

While I think that 20 pages of examples are probably enough, I couldn't resist posting here the strings stem export from my current composition. I really can't praise CSS 1.7 enough. It's really changed how I compose. I can now do really fast stuff, flourishes, runs - everything that I (as a fan of old-school composition) always dreamed of, but never had the tool for.

I hope it's okay for this CSS-themed thread that some parts are from other libraries. I included a picture to see where's what.

I usually don't listen to isolated stems, and I just discovered that the runs could be improved by breaking them into parts like Alex described above. In this case it doesn't matter so much because the orchestration of winds and brass is very dense, so it's not as exposed. But apart from that, if you find anything about the way I use CSS 1.7 that you think I might improve, let me know, it's greatly appreciated, and I'd like to do this great library justice.






View attachment MOZ_tr06_strings-only.mp3


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## Flyo (Oct 21, 2022)

amorphosynthesis said:


>


I down bad info there, you right! I think they Long Marcato Attack sound very different, it’s designed to do ascents followed with a long note after.


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## Aitcpiano (Oct 21, 2022)

Flyo said:


> I down bad info there, you right! I think they Long Marcato Attack sound very different, it’s designed to do ascents followed with a long note after.


You can play in longer marcato type notes with the legato patches; however, I would like longer short notes included and it is a shame it's missed out on the string. Spitfire have often missed the longer marcato notes. SCS does not have a longer short note as well.


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## Flyo (Oct 21, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> You can play in longer marcato type notes with the legato patches; however, I would like longer short notes included and it is a shame it's missed out on the string. Spitfire have often missed the longer marcato notes. SCS does not have a longer short note as well.


That’s why I write there was no Marcato on strings section. But there is one Long Marcato Attack, focused for other kind of arrangements. There is nothing like I hear here for longer shorter notes with that kind of fury and detail on BBC


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## muziksculp (Oct 21, 2022)

Flyo said:


> That’s why I write there was no Marcato on strings section. But there is one Long Marcato Attack, focused for other kind of arrangements. There is nothing like I hear here for longer shorter notes with that kind of fury and detail on BBC


Can you give us an example of what you are referring to here ?


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## Composer 2021 (Oct 21, 2022)

Finally got CSS 1.5 backed up. Now, can someone refresh my memory on how in the world I'm supposed to download 1.7 when Native Access won't let me?


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## Flyo (Oct 21, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Can you give us an example of what you are referring to here ?


Walkthrough



By Paul Himself at minute 6:16 shows the Marcato Long Attack.


----------



## muziksculp (Oct 21, 2022)

imho. the CSS Marcatos are one of the best. They can be played quite long, or short. Legato, or non-legatop.

The BBCSO Pro Marcatos are too short, and don't allow for more flexible note value playability.


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## Francisco Lamolda (Oct 22, 2022)

Flyo said:


> That’s why I write there was no Marcato on strings section. But there is one Long Marcato Attack, focused for other kind of arrangements. There is nothing like I hear here for longer shorter notes with that kind of fury and detail on BBC


There are not longer shorts in BBC, but the legato patch serves as the marcato patch from CSS in the terms of fast writing (runs and general fast writting). And it's good doing that. For a more marcated and sustained attack, the Long Marcato works.

And when I need that short longer note, I use the legato and sometimes the marcato (it works well for things like the first note of a walzt). But yeah, it sucks not having tenutos and marcatos on everything and not just the woods.

Btw, I think that CSS is pretty good in terms of short notes, but it is far from perfect. I would personally add portato with different releases.


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## Composer 2021 (Oct 22, 2022)

I downloaded CSS 1.7 Windows version. Put in on my Mac drive. Native Access won't let me use it. I figure the Windows and Mac versions are different, but was worth a shot anyway. So uh, once again asking for assistance in how to update the Mac version when clearing space isn't an option.


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## Go To 11 (Oct 23, 2022)

xanderscores said:


> While I think that 20 pages of examples are probably enough, I couldn't resist posting here the strings stem export from my current composition. I really can't praise CSS 1.7 enough. It's really changed how I compose. I can now do really fast stuff, flourishes, runs - everything that I (as a fan of old-school composition) always dreamed of, but never had the tool for.
> 
> I hope it's okay for this CSS-themed thread that some parts are from other libraries. I included a picture to see where's what.
> 
> ...


Loved listening to this! Thanks for sharing.


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## Honko (Oct 26, 2022)

Im typing here because I'm not sure where else. Is CSS short articulations mixed quieter? When I compare BBC spiccato and CSS spiccato on the same velocity CSS is really quiet. Not sure if it would be a good idea to raise the kontakt volume for the shorts. What do you guys do and have you noticed this aswell?


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

Hi, 

With regards to using CSSS with CSS, Alex W. shows how useful they are in adding definition, and detail to the Ensembles, acting more as First-Chairs that one can mix in to taste to enhance the ensembles. imho. they were not initially meant to be used for creating a quartet performance. 

Here is the the official video showing this :



I need to use CSSS more in this fashion, and experiment to see how the various mic options of CSSS, and the new CSS 1.7 Spot Mics interact, and how they sound at various mix levels. 

Has anyone done this already ? and uses CSSS for this specific purpose. I don't see CSSS used like this most of the time in videos posted that use CSS. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

Hi,

Here is short comparison audio showing CSS 1.7 Celli (using spot 1 + Spot 2 + Main) Mics , then the same phrase repeated using CSS 1.7 + CSSS Cello (as first chair) to add definition.

View attachment CSSS Celo + CSS Celli v2.mp3


I hear a much richer, and detailed sound when CSSS is layered with it. I think this would be something I would do more often with both these libraries when writing for a full String Ensemble, I would even think that the definition CSSS Violin, and Viola add would be more noticeable, due to the more mid and high frequencies of these sections.

I kept CSSS Cello lower in volume compared to CSS Celli. So, tweaking the volume of CSSS Cello can even add more definition, and detail if that's what is needed. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Francisco Lamolda (Oct 27, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> With regards to using CSSS with CSS, Alex W. shows how useful they are in adding definition, and detail to the Ensembles, acting more as First-Chairs that one can mix in to taste to enhance the ensembles.
> 
> Has anyone done this already ?


That's my go to with both libraries. It just a great mix, specially in CSS 1.5 where CSSS added a lot more definition with the issue of the intense vibrato. Now we will have to see how does mix with the next update of CSSS.


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## xanderscores (Oct 27, 2022)

As to


Honko said:


> Im typing here because I'm not sure where else. Is CSS short articulations mixed quieter? When I compare BBC spiccato and CSS spiccato on the same velocity CSS is really quiet. Not sure if it would be a good idea to raise the kontakt volume for the shorts. What do you guys do and have you noticed this aswell?


Yes, I have indeed. Good question.

I think there's two things to consider. Firstly, my assumption would be that it's because CSS leans toward a realistically balanced orchestra sound and that's why short articulations by comparison don't cut through like they do with other libraries. 
(I can imagine, not being a string player though, that a real spiccato where the bow bounces on the string is not as loud an articulation as we sample junkies would expect.)
Secondly, CSS has a very short spiccato. Other libraries would probably call it spiccatissimo. I've always used Spiccato with other libraries, but in CSS I use the staccatissimo for those parts.

But yes, overall the short articulations are not very loud. If I want to put an emphasis there, I'd raise expression. I'm having all my instruments at expression 100. If I want to spotlight something, expression goes up to 110-115. But only if there's no other way. The better choice is making space in the orchestration for those parts to be heard.


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## Francisco Lamolda (Oct 27, 2022)

Honko said:


> Im typing here because I'm not sure where else. Is CSS short articulations mixed quieter? When I compare BBC spiccato and CSS spiccato on the same velocity CSS is really quiet. Not sure if it would be a good idea to raise the kontakt volume for the shorts. What do you guys do and have you noticed this aswell?


CSS is in general more quiet than BBC as it is a smaller ensemble (10/7/7/6/5 vs 16/14/12/10/8) and the room is drier than Maida Vale.


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## JohannesR (Oct 27, 2022)

Does anyone know the status of the 1.7.1 update that adresses the bugs that have been reported? Updating my template with routing etc. will take days, so I'd rather not do it twice. Thanks!!


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## Honko (Oct 27, 2022)

xanderscores said:


> As to
> 
> Yes, I have indeed. Good question.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts and answer! I guess its nothing to stress about then


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## madfloyd (Oct 27, 2022)

JohannesR said:


> Does anyone know the status of the 1.7.1 update that adresses the bugs that have been reported? Updating my template with routing etc. will take days, so I'd rather not do it twice. Thanks!!


I've been wondering the same thing. I know Alex likes to be thorough but I thought it would come quicker than this... I've been holding off with my template as well...


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## NoamL (Oct 27, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Has anyone done this already ? and uses CSSS for this specific purpose. I don't see CSSS used like this most of the time in videos posted that use CSS.


All the examples I posted earlier use this. I think people don't often mention they're using CSSS with CSS because it's just so easy to integrate them. Stick 'em both in the same Kontakt instance tuned to the same MIDI channel and you're done! Even now that the Strings are on v1.7 and the Solos are still on v1.0, there are very few hiccups. Only thing to watch out for is that the Solos's tremolo doesn't go down quite as whisper-quiet as the sections.


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## Rob Elliott (Oct 27, 2022)

NoamL said:


> All the examples I posted earlier use this. I think people don't often mention they're using CSSS with CSS because it's just so easy to integrate them. Stick 'em both in the same Kontakt instance tuned to the same MIDI channel and you're done! Even now that the Strings are on v1.7 and the Solos are still on v1.0, there are very few hiccups. Only thing to watch out for is that the Solos's tremolo doesn't go down quite as whisper-quiet as the sections.


I agree with this. The only other thing I do is set up a logical preset (Cubase) to nudge the midi on CSSS just a bit 'right' (it feels their attack/apex of note is a bit sooner than CSS)


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## Composer 2021 (Oct 28, 2022)

Does anyone have pre-delay values for 1.7? Or are they the same as before (on David Kudell's pre-delay spreadsheet)?


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## muziksculp (Oct 29, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> Does anyone have pre-delay values for 1.7? Or are they the same as before (on David Kudell's pre-delay spreadsheet)?


Yes, they are same as before. 

But the new Low-Latency Legato mode has a (- 150) delay compensation value.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)




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## STMICHAELS (Oct 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



wow - very cool.. Ohhh the choices......


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## Go To 11 (Nov 3, 2022)

Hey all!

Here's a new piece I composed as a trailer for my new Cinematic Studio template, using strings from 1.7. In this piece I chose to use all Con Sordino strings; a sound that often goes unmentioned when talking about Cinematic Studio Strings, but one I absolutely adore. All of the solo strings are non Sordino, adding a bit of sharpness from the first chair players on top of the Con Sordino sections. The other stems from the trailer are in the playlist too.


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## muziksculp (Nov 3, 2022)

Sounds Wonderful  ❤️

I love the simulated sordino of CSS 1.7, especially when using the short articulations.


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## Go To 11 (Nov 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Sounds Wonderful ❤️
> 
> I love the simulated sordino of CSS 1.7, especially when using the short articulations.


It's so great isn't it! There are definitely pros and cons to real vs emulated sordino, but Cinematic Studio Strings is such an effective sordino tone compared to real sordino libraries I have. And to have it for every single articulation is suddenly the huge benefit. Thanks for listening.


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## constaneum (Nov 3, 2022)

Go To 11 said:


> Hey all!
> 
> Here's a new piece I composed as a trailer for my new Cinematic Studio template, using strings from 1.7. In this piece I chose to use all Con Sordino strings; a sound that often goes unmentioned when talking about Cinematic Studio Strings, but one I absolutely adore. All of the solo strings are non Sordino, adding a bit of sharpness from the first chair players on top of the Con Sordino sections. The other stems from the trailer are in the playlist too.



are these out of the box sounds with CSS 1.7 using the mix mic patch or you did some EQ and mic selection adjustment ?


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## Go To 11 (Nov 4, 2022)

constaneum said:


> are these out of the box sounds with CSS 1.7 using the mix mic patch or you did some EQ and mic selection adjustment ?


Apologies if that wasn’t clear. All of the sections, strings included, have been processed through my new template for the Cinematic Studio Series. There’s EQ and a bespoke Hollywood Scoring Stage room emulation on every instrument. I wanted to share it here as an example of what’s possible with these libraries and especially with the new 1.7 update to strings, as I just wasn’t able to get this clarity before the latest update.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 6, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I really miss the "Classic Legato Patch", should also included in 1.7.


I think it is coming back soon. I have it on good authority


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## Francisco Lamolda (Nov 14, 2022)

New update!!


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## Tremendouz (Nov 14, 2022)

I just updated to 1.7.1 via Native Access (not NA2) and it seems like the spiccato overlay is not triggering for the violins and violas when playing marcato legato notes. The first note of a phrase has the overlay but any overlapping notes seem to be missing the overlay.

Cellos and basses seem to work normally.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 14, 2022)

Alex, I ran into some bugs in 1.7.1 tonight.

First of all, Measured tremolo with a long held note plays a very short note, sort of Staccato length, then nothing is heard.

Second, with Legato set to Expressive, when I hold a long Viola note, it plays for a while, then stops. I can see in piano roll that the note "is still playing" but no sound is heard. Then all of a sudden, when playback reaches further along the same note, it starts playing again. Very strange.

When I switched back to version 1.5 and replayed the above sequence, it played back without problems. So it must be 1.7.1.


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## Alex W (Nov 14, 2022)

Tremendouz said:


> I just updated to 1.7.1 via Native Access (not NA2) and it seems like the spiccato overlay is not triggering for the violins and violas when playing marcato legato notes. The first note of a phrase has the overlay but any overlapping notes seem to be missing the overlay.
> 
> Cellos and basses seem to work normally.


This is a feature, not a bug - this is how CSS operates since v1.7 onwards. I think it's more realistic this way - this topic was covered in a post a few pages ago on this thread I believe, if you look at the conversation between myself and Kubler. If you check his post here:  #353 and then my response at  #381 , that should clarify this point.

Thanks!


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## Gingerbread (Nov 14, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Alex, I ran into some bugs in 1.7.1 tonight.
> 
> First of all, Measured tremolo with a long held note plays a very short note, sort of Staccato length, then nothing is heard.
> 
> ...


Just checked, and I'm not getting either of these problems. Is it possible you had purged the samples, and they were only partially loaded? Try reloading the samples for the patch, and see if it still happens.


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## Alex W (Nov 14, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Alex, I ran into some bugs in 1.7.1 tonight.
> 
> First of all, Measured tremolo with a long held note plays a very short note, sort of Staccato length, then nothing is heard.
> 
> ...


Hi Henrik,

Measured tremolo has always operated in this way, and has not changed for v1.7. Measured Tremolo never allowed you to hold a note. It is a scripted articulation that simulates measured tremolo by triggering two notes very close together. The default tempo is 180 bpm, which is quite fast (perhaps that's what you're hearing as a single long staccato, but it's not). Please see the original articulations video here  to see that in action / how the sequencing should be approached.

As for the viola held notes stopping, that sounds strange, but may be caused in some way by switching between v1.5 and v1.7. Hard to say, but if you could please get in touch with my via the support button on the website that would make it easier to work through this with you. If you could please provide some more info that would also be helpful (which note does this affect? A MIDI file would be ideal too).

Thanks!


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## Tremendouz (Nov 14, 2022)

Alex W said:


> This is a feature, not a bug - this is how CSS operates since v1.7 onwards. I think it's more realistic this way - this topic was covered in a post a few pages ago on this thread I believe, if you look at the conversation between myself and Kubler. If you check his post here:  #353 and then my response at  #381 , that should clarify this point.
> 
> Thanks!


Interesting, I guess I just never noticed the lack of the spiccato overlays in 1.7 which I haven't yet used a whole lot.

The basses and cellos seem to still have the overlay though, I suppose that's intended?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 14, 2022)

One thing I learned is that several articulations rely on samples from others. 

For instance, Measured Tremolo will not work if you have the shorts articulation disabled.

I think the other big one was trills require the sustain/legato articulation to be enabled.


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## Alex W (Nov 14, 2022)

Tremendouz said:


> Interesting, I guess I just never noticed the lack of the spiccato overlays in 1.7 which I haven't yet used a whole lot.
> 
> The basses and cellos seem to still have the overlay though, I suppose that's intended?


Yes that's intended too - the cellos and basses needed a bit more of a "clunk" between notes as they have that extra "weight" to their sound / playing. Having said that, the effect is still significantly reduced / muted relative to 1.5.


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## Alex W (Nov 14, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> One thing I learned is that several articulations rely on samples from others.
> 
> For instance, Measured Tremolo will not work if you have the shorts articulation disabled.
> 
> I think the other big one was trills require the sustain/legato articulation to be enabled.


This shouldn't occur anymore as of v1.7 - does it still occur for you even after updating to v1.7 (or 1.7.1)?


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## Evans (Nov 14, 2022)

Alex W said:


> This shouldn't occur anymore as of v1.7 - does it still occur for you even after updating to v1.7 (or 1.7.1)?


I checked each 1.7.1 patch just now, and the Measured Trem and Trill artics still function for me with others disabled.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 14, 2022)

Anyone else getting no portamentos in 1.7.1?

CC5 is all the way up - and velocities are equal to (or less than) 10.


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## Manfred (Nov 14, 2022)

Go To 11 said:


> Hey all!
> 
> Here's a new piece I composed as a trailer for my new Cinematic Studio template, using strings from 1.7. In this piece I chose to use all Con Sordino strings; a sound that often goes unmentioned when talking about Cinematic Studio Strings, but one I absolutely adore. All of the solo strings are non Sordino, adding a bit of sharpness from the first chair players on top of the Con Sordino sections. The other stems from the trailer are in the playlist too.



Please, please, please create this for Cubase Pro 12! I placed my vote…but voting again here


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## AMBi (Nov 14, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Anyone else getting no portamentos in 1.7.1?
> 
> CC5 is all the way up - and velocities are equal to (or less than) 10.


Works on my end.
The default portamento velocity trigger was lowered I believe. It used to be <20 but now it’s <10.

I had to change my keyboard’s velocity curve since the setting it was on was was capped at 13 being the lowest amount.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 14, 2022)

AMBi said:


> Works on my end.
> The default portamento velocity trigger was lowered I believe. It used to be <20 but now it’s <10.
> 
> I had to change my keyboard’s velocity curve since the setting it was on was was capped at 13 being the lowest amount.


Oh that's good to know - must be something on my end - can't get it to work at any velocities below 10... 

I just ran the update - but maybe I should just do a total re-download of 1.7.1.

Btw - how do you know you're actually running 1.7.1?

Checking for Spot Mics doesn't work anymore


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## AMBi (Nov 14, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Oh that's good to know - must be something on my end - can't get it to work at any velocities below 10...
> 
> I just ran the update - but maybe I should just do a total re-download of 1.7.1.
> 
> ...


Click the Gear Icon in the top left corner of your CSS instance and click Info and you'll see the version you're running.

If the Spot Mics aren't displaying and you only get a "Close Mic" option than you're likely running Version 1.5.


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## Henu (Nov 15, 2022)

AMBi said:


> Click the Gear Icon in the top left corner of your CSS instance and click Info and you'll see the version you're running.


Well, actually even with running 1.5 it still shows the latest number you have. :D 
But this will tell you at least the difference between 1.7.0 and 1.7.1!


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## Go To 11 (Nov 15, 2022)

Manfred said:


> Please, please, please create this for Cubase Pro 12! I placed my vote…but voting again here


Hey Manfred, thanks so much! Just about to launch on Studio One 5 and 6 which is fab. I'm still on the lookout for someone to create the Cubase version with me, so if you know of anyone.... [email protected]. Cheers!


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## jonesdip (Nov 15, 2022)

Hope someone can help. I decided to leave updating CSS until Alex issued 1.7.1 For some reason now I cannot update it via Native Access 1. Hovering over the Full Version field in the icon display doesn't give me the option me to reinstall. Anyone else have this problem? I know this option was available a week or two ago before 1.7.1 (but as I said I didn't use it then)


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## Wendolinny (Nov 15, 2022)

jonesdip said:


> Hope someone can help. I decided to leave updating CSS until Alex issued 1.7.1 For some reason now I cannot update it via Native Access 1. Hovering over the Full Version field in the icon display doesn't give me the option me to reinstall. Anyone else have this problem? I know this option was available a week or two ago before 1.7.1 (but as I said I didn't use it then)


Having the same problem (with NA 1). Even moving the old directory around only gives me the option to repair by relocating, not reinstallation. Weird enough, updating to 1.7 worked back then. I’ve tried uninstalling the library and re-adding it in NA 1, even uninstalling NA 1 and installing again – still no “Reinstall” option inside NA 1.
I’ve contacted NI Support about this but haven’t heard back from them yet.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 15, 2022)

Alex W said:


> This shouldn't occur anymore as of v1.7 - does it still occur for you even after updating to v1.7 (or 1.7.1)?


Looks like that is no longer occurring in CSS.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 15, 2022)

OK - solved the "no portamento" issue.

If "Vibrato X-Fade" is set to "Off" then portamento does not work.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 15, 2022)

Loving this update so far - used it in a start-to-finish job today - no issues.

Legato in Expressive mode beautifully smooth again - no hanging notes either.

Marcato runs are really good (didn't need pre-recorded runs for once) although I found myself switching the destination notes at the top of the runs back to Expressive legato - the tone was a bit harsh for today's piece.

Duplicating parts to CSSS was problem-free - although the runs obviously don't sound as good until they also get the new Marcato update.

Still adjusting to the more aggressive fade-in and fade-out curves - but I'll get used to it.

Personally, I don't have a need for niente - but I respect that others do.

Thank you Alex.


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## VTX Rudy (Nov 16, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Loving this update so far - used it in a start-to-finish job today - no issues.
> 
> Legato in Expressive mode beautifully smooth again - no hanging notes either.
> 
> ...


As A first time buyer of css do you have to go through all the upgrading procedures or do you just download the upgraded version ? Asking for a friend.


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## homie (Nov 16, 2022)

VTX Rudy said:


> As A first time buyer of css do you have to go through all the upgrading procedures or do you just download the upgraded version ? Asking for a friend.


You'll get the latest version since a few days. So just download it, no need for any upgrade procedures.


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## jonesdip (Nov 17, 2022)

Wendolinny said:


> Having the same problem (with NA 1). Even moving the old directory around only gives me the option to repair by relocating, not reinstallation. Weird enough, updating to 1.7 worked back then. I’ve tried uninstalling the library and re-adding it in NA 1, even uninstalling NA 1 and installing again – still no “Reinstall” option inside NA 1.
> I’ve contacted NI Support about this but haven’t heard back from them yet.


Hi I contacted Alex and he recommended logging out of Native Access 1 and logging in again and this worked for me. The option to Reinstall was now available. if this didn't work, he recommended downloading NA 2 and trying that route. I hadn't realised that (to quote Alex) "NA2 is treated as a separate app altogether, and will not replace NA1 on your system, in case you are concerned about that." Now I just need to pay a visit to my daughter who has fast fibre broadband - my broadband is pedestrian at best slowing to a crawl!! Hope this helps you


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## Wendolinny (Nov 17, 2022)

jonesdip said:


> logging out of Native Access 1 and logging in again


Thank you, this actually did the trick!  (Still haven’t heard back from NI, weird that Alex has to answer NA 1 support questions now...)


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## jonesdip (Nov 19, 2022)

Couple of things. Finally managed the 1.7.1 download (v slow broadband) - could someone confirm the file size of the download please (I have 32.1 GB and everything seems to be working ok). Secondly, is there a way to spare myself the agony of a second download to my desktop m/c - I mean can I copy the download to my desktop m/c and somehow get NA 1 to recognise it as the latest version? (e,g. by renaming v1.5 and using the Relocate function to point to the new version. Thanks in advance for any help.


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## Wendolinny (Nov 19, 2022)

jonesdip said:


> the file size of the download


For me (on Windows), it’s 45.2 GiB (= 48,599,703,126 bytes). If you want to cross-check, I’ve attached a content listing of my Samples folder with file sizes.


jonesdip said:


> copy the download to my desktop m/c and somehow get NA 1 to recognise it





jonesdip said:


> using the Relocate function to point to the new version


This could work, but I’m not sure and have never tried that. Don’t see what could go wrong, though. If it doesn’t work, you’re back to re-downloading it.


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## jonesdip (Nov 19, 2022)

Wendolinny said:


> For me (on Windows), it’s 45.2 GiB (= 48,599,703,126 bytes). If you want to cross-check, I’ve attached a content listing of my Samples folder with file sizes.
> 
> 
> This could work, but I’m not sure and have never tried that. Don’t see what could go wrong, though. If it doesn’t work, you’re back to re-downloading it.


Thank you for taking the trouble to reply and for the directory listing. I think I may have confused you. Maybe your listing is for the download package prior to installation because the structure looks different to mine.

Having installed 1.7.1 my final Directory size is 32.1 GB (34,477,372,047 bytes), Sub Directories and files are Instruments, Samples, .nicnt file and Packages (text Doc).

Under Samples I have CSS.nkc and CSS.nkr followed by CSStrings_001.nkc and CSStrings_001.nkx repeated up to CSStrings_017.nkc and CSStrings_017.nkx

I'm a bit less worried now since it seems to be working perfectly in Kontakt.

But I'd still like to know if there's some way of copying the whole directory to my second PC and getting NA 1 to recognise it, The thought of another long download doesn't cheer me up.


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## Wendolinny (Nov 19, 2022)

jonesdip said:


> I think I may have confused you. Maybe your listing is for the download package prior to installation because the structure looks different to mine.


No, it’s just that I’ve deliberately omitted the contents of the “Instruments” and “Documentation” directories because their contents should be small enough not to be responsible for a difference of more than 10 GB.  I’ve given the contents of my “Samples” directory, post-installation in fact.


jonesdip said:


> Under Samples I have CSS.nkc and CSS.nkr followed by CSStrings_001.nkc and CSStrings_001.nkx repeated up to CSStrings_017.nkc and CSStrings_017.nkx


Now that is strange.  Maybe this is OS-dependent? But still, why would it make sense to choose the file naming patterns so differently? And the size difference is weird as well. I cannot imagine that Kontakt needs its samples encoded differently, depending on the OS. Also, it seems strange/wasteful for NI to provide server space for two different editions of the same library version. (I could understand the need for different executable files / runtime libraries, but this isn’t the case here – it’s just scripts, images and audio.)


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## jonesdip (Nov 19, 2022)

Wendolinny said:


> No, it’s just that I’ve deliberately omitted the contents of the “Instruments” and “Documentation” directories because their contents should be small enough not to be responsible for a difference of more than 10 GB.  I’ve given the contents of my “Samples” directory, post-installation in fact.
> 
> Now that is strange.  Maybe this is OS-dependent? But still, why would it make sense to choose the file naming patterns so differently? And the size difference is weird as well. I cannot imagine that Kontakt needs its samples encoded differently, depending on the OS. Also, it seems strange/wasteful for NI to provide server space for two different editions of the same library version. (I could understand the need for different executable files / runtime libraries, but this isn’t the case here – it’s just scripts, images and audio.)


I'm afraid I have no answer other than to say that everything seems to be working ok! Maybe somebody has the answer. I have to be honest and say that the only reason for me asking the question about the final size of the library was because I had this notion that someone else here had reported it was 40 + GB. Anyway, someone might have an answer! meanwhile I have one m/c working anyway. Thank you for your time.


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## BassClef (Nov 19, 2022)

I'm on a Mac and CSS version 1.71 shows 48.8GB.


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## Alex W (Nov 19, 2022)

jonesdip said:


> Thank you for taking the trouble to reply and for the directory listing. I think I may have confused you. Maybe your listing is for the download package prior to installation because the structure looks different to mine.
> 
> Having installed 1.7.1 my final Directory size is 32.1 GB (34,477,372,047 bytes), Sub Directories and files are Instruments, Samples, .nicnt file and Packages (text Doc).
> 
> ...


Sorry but that's the old version you've got there. I'm not sure how that's happened, but if you could please contact me via the support button on our website, I'll help you sort it out - thanks!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 19, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Sorry but that's the old version you've got there. I'm not sure how that's happened, but if you could please contact me via the support button on our website, I'll help you sort it out - thanks!


Alex, this is off-topic but did you record Percussion yet?


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## jonesdip (Nov 19, 2022)

Alex W said:


> Sorry but that's the old version you've got there. I'm not sure how that's happened, but if you could please contact me via the support button on our website, I'll help you sort it out - thanks!


Thank you Alex, will do.


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## jonesdip (Nov 20, 2022)

jonesdip said:


> Thank you Alex, will do.


Sent a couple of .png files of the file structure on my laptop. I've bitten the bullet and started the reinstall on my desktop - that will take around another 4 hours to complete. Perhaps this will be right!


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## MarkKouznetsov (Nov 22, 2022)

I've been struggling with portamento since the 1.7 first came out. It seems like it's barely non-existent. The transitions are very quiet and short and not for all notes. CSSS works as it should. 

Any tips?


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## Juulu (Nov 22, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> I've been struggling with portamento since the 1.7 first came out. It seems like it's barely non-existent. The transitions are very quiet and short and not for all notes. CSSS works as it should.
> 
> Any tips?


You can change the volume of the portamento with CC5 I think. If you have multiple controllers and know what they're assigned to you can just map the portamento volume control to them.


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## Go To 11 (Nov 22, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> I've been struggling with portamento since the 1.7 first came out. It seems like it's barely non-existent. The transitions are very quiet and short and not for all notes. CSSS works as it should.
> 
> Any tips?


Portamento in 1.7 was dropped to 10 from 20 velocity. I personally put it back to 20 as I catch it more often when I want it then. Try that. It’s the gear toggle top right.


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## MarkKouznetsov (Nov 24, 2022)

Go To 11 said:


> Portamento in 1.7 was dropped to 10 from 20 velocity. I personally put it back to 20 as I catch it more often when I want it then. Try that. It’s the gear toggle top right.


Yeah, I sometimes drop velocities to the bottom. I CAN hear it. But it's barely noticeable, it seems.


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## MarkKouznetsov (Nov 24, 2022)

Also:

Once again, I'm trying to optimize a template around CSt. 🙄

Could anyone give me the prices negative delay values, please?

I recently tried to keyswitch but I can't. It's pure chaos when you're writing dense lines and unusual time signatures. And when, on top of that, you need to double something or, god forbid, layer, it all falls apart. I have to work on the grid, I love to be precise and accurate in that regard. I hate out of time sloppiness, there's enough work with tweaking the 1st note in legato phrases... Because one you have to rewrite parts it's nearly impossible to understand what's going on.

I get that the shorts are at -60ms and the LL legatos at -150ms, but where do the other articulations land? Harmonics? trills/tremolos? Expressive legato? Marcato?

Thanks.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 24, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Also:
> 
> Once again, I'm trying to optimize a template around CSt. 🙄
> 
> ...








Negative Track Delay Database / Spreadsheet


Heres a direct link to the database: Link EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access. ---- Original post: Is there a database anywhere of...




vi-control.net


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## Henu (Nov 24, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Could anyone give me the prices negative delay values, please?


(The "final delay"- column refers to Cubase's Midi Logical Editor values. As I've already offset my tracks for -60ms I only need that "final" amount of moving in that editor. )


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## Phillip Dixon (Nov 25, 2022)

I just bought CSS.. CSSS .. CSP
I intend to. Get CSB and CSW in a couple of weeks, how do I get the loyalty price
For these libraries, as there's nothing obvious on the website, 
Cheers


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## goalie composer (Nov 25, 2022)

Phillip Dixon said:


> I just bought CSS.. CSSS .. CSP
> I intend to. Get CSB and CSW in a couple of weeks, how do I get the loyalty price
> For these libraries, as there's nothing obvious on the website,
> Cheers


Email them


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## BassClef (Nov 25, 2022)

goalie composer said:


> Email them


I believe your subsequent purchases will in include the loyalty discount as long as you are logged in to your account.


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## Go To 11 (Nov 25, 2022)

Phillip Dixon said:


> I just bought CSS.. CSSS .. CSP
> I intend to. Get CSB and CSW in a couple of weeks, how do I get the loyalty price
> For these libraries, as there's nothing obvious on the website,
> Cheers


It should happen at checkout once you have one of their lives. Or via email codes. Or email them. Congrats!


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## Phillip Dixon (Nov 25, 2022)

I must be missing something.
I wasn't given the option to open an account


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## jonesdip (Nov 26, 2022)

Phillip Dixon said:


> I must be missing something.
> I wasn't given the option to open an account


Be patient - I think you'll find that the Loyalty deals are suspended when the Black Friday reductions are on. They'll be back after the sale ends. To actually obtain loyalty coupons you can contact Alex via the Zen Desk I believe


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## filipjonathan (Nov 26, 2022)

Phillip Dixon said:


> I must be missing something.
> I wasn't given the option to open an account


Just try to add something to the cart. If it's not discounted already, just email Alex and that's it.


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## MarkKouznetsov (Nov 27, 2022)

I've been experimenting with doing divisi with CSS. It's almost perfect, if not for shorts where you get this nasty phasing issues (due to not being in time) with SOME notes. I have only tried stacatissimo so far.

I know it's not designed for that, but I'm just sharing. If the those individual short notes would have been tighter, it would rock. 

And, of course, that's with transposition trick, tuning down by -2.

Although, a bit surprising, still. If you tune it down, presumably, kontakt would use different samples, so why do these phasing issues appear when two instances are playing in unison (one of those transposed or not, doesn't matter) I do not know.

But, again, that's not a bug or anything, so nothing to fix.


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## NoamL (Nov 27, 2022)

MarkKouznetsov said:


> And, of course, that's with transposition trick, tuning down by -2.


I believe that's why you're getting the phasing.

If you play for instance *G* and *Bb* using two instances of CSS Violins, and the G is using the transposition trick, then you'll get phasing.

Because the *G* is actually "reading" the *A* note from CSS and pitching it down by -2. But the *A* and *Bb* are the same sample. CSS (like most libraries) samples every other note of the chromatic scale and fills in the missing notes with pitch shifting.

As I understand it, phasing is almost always a sign that you're using two of the same sample at the same time. It's not a timing issue.

The good news is, you don't need to use the transposition trick if you want to write two separate divisi parts with CSS. Just use two instances of the Violins. I also usually use a volume move of -3dB on divisi parts to keep the 2 parts "as loud as" 1 part would be - this helps keep the overall string sound balanced.

I went through a lot of experiments recently to try to make CSS sound more symphonic, several of those experiments involved using two copies and the transposition trick, but I didn't like the graininess it added to the sound. In fact you can hear the "two copies of CSS" approach on the demos I posted on post #2 of this thread. They sound rather grainy and ugly to me now compared to CSS out of the box.

Overall I think it is best to use CSS out of the box, or to layer it with a similarly sized library such as CS2, Appassionata or Soaring Strings. In this way you can naturally get a tutti sound (for instance CSS Cellos + Appassionata Cellos playing the same part) that can realistically divide into divisi (one part for CSS, one part for Appassionata).


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## MarkKouznetsov (Nov 27, 2022)

NoamL said:


> I believe that's why you're getting the phasing.
> 
> If you play for instance *G* and *Bb* using two instances of CSS Violins, and the G is using the transposition trick, then you'll get phasing.
> 
> ...


Like I wrote above, I also tried not transposing. It makes no difference. Again, I was talking about the shorts, you get that sound as if you're playing the same sample twice, but one of them is slightly behind/ahead.

It's 100% a timing issue.
There are specific notes, out of time. But due to the nature of the issue, it would be way too much work to sit there and determine which notes, where, and in which instruments, due to the nature of round robins. You just can not know. And I only tested staccatissimos. But legatos suffer from it too. Only less obvious and when it is, it's happening rarer. Anyways, transposed or not, the best case is avoiding playing in unison altogether. 

It also feels like legatos are affected by this too. Some notes are too early or too late. Just a bit "uneven". But again, not dramatically, just if you listen closely. Again, not worth fixing. Too much work for too little gain. Otherwise, Alex could spend another 20 years on it.

P.S.: If you're avoiding playing in unison, I agree, transposing makes CSS sound bad. It's better to not, you get much more clarity.


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## STMICHAELS (Nov 30, 2022)

For those with CCS 1.7 now that you have had it for a little while

How would you describe the difference in sound?

From what I can tell it actually has more clarity/less muddy from the DEMOS I heard here. 

I know it's the same room however it reminds me in some DEMOS between the sound of the old CS2 (Large Hall and Smooth) and original CSS (Smaller and Darker) like almost symphonic but not quite there....

Welcome your thoughts on this.


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## AMBi (Nov 30, 2022)

STMICHAELS said:


> For those with CCS 1.7 now that you have had it for a little while
> 
> How would you describe the difference in sound?
> 
> ...


A lot of the "hissyness" was removed so it's an overall cleaner mix with a more direct sound.

I personally liked some of that extra air on top since it made it sound a bit more lush to my ears so I think it's worth owning both versions.

The shorts are also tighter, while 1.5's shorts felt heavier which are both nice to have.


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## MarkKouznetsov (Dec 1, 2022)

STMICHAELS said:


> like almost symphonic but not quite there....


That's probably exactly right.


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## STMICHAELS (Dec 1, 2022)

AMBi said:


> A lot of the "hissyness" was removed so it's an overall cleaner mix with a more direct sound.
> 
> I personally liked some of that extra air on top since it made it sound a bit more lush to my ears so I think it's worth owning both versions.
> 
> The shorts are also tighter, while 1.5's shorts felt heavier which are both nice to have.





MarkKouznetsov said:


> That's probably exactly right.


Thank you for your input @AMBi and @MarkKouznetsov


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## Jonas Hallstrom (Today at 10:39 AM)

Happy new year everyone!
Here is a thing I wrote to try the Project Colossal template with the 1.7 update of CSS.


Any tips on the mix/sound/programming are welcome!
Best
Jonas


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## gohrev (Today at 3:58 PM)

@Jonas Hallstrom what a wonderful, lush piece. Thank you for sharing.

I would like to know which mics you used, please?


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## Akarin (Today at 4:08 PM)

I never was a fan of CSS, this is no secret. For one reason only: the hiss and noise at low dynamics. Since 1.7, this has totally changed and CSS became one of my favorite string libraries. Here's a track that uses 1.7.1 as the only library for the strings:


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