# Gary Garritan has discontinued the Strad and Gofriller



## Hardy Heern (May 1, 2008)

Hi all,

I noticed a thread on the NS site 'Vienna VS Garritan solo strings' which looked interesting and was very surprised to see that Gary has discontinued his solo string instruments. Yesterday there was a link to Gary's update area, see below, which has vanished today :roll: 


*Update to the Update of the Updates to the Update - Feb. 2008*

Products Discontinued but to Return in Different form:
Stradivari Solo Violin 
Gofriller Solo Cello 
Orchestral Strings for GigaStudio 
As previously posted, we are doing something different with all of the strings in the new ARIA player. The Stradivari and Gofriller have been discontuinued and solo string instruments will be inclusive in GOS2 rather than offered separately. We have new technologies we have developed and I'll comment further when the time is right.

Interesting to speculate why this might be. 

Logically, I can think of the following reasons: - (No one stops selling something that is making money.....*unless *they *really *have to......)

Was it that: -
1. They weren't selling anymore, or
2. That there has been a commercial and/or legal falling out (infringement or whatever) with their previous collaborators and they have been 'wheel clamped'.

Can anyone fill in?

Frank


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## midphase (May 1, 2008)

Interesting, I own both so I wonder if there will be some sort of upgrade path for people like me.

Both instruments for me are a love/hate relationship. I love how they control, the scripting is superb and they are simply a joy to play.

I hate how they sound outside of a very narrow "sweet spot", they both require very aggressive EQ to make their strengths come out....however they do blend in very nicely with larger ensembles to add that 1st violinist/1st Cellist close mic sound to bigger ensemble work.

I don't know what might be happening that would cause Gary to pull the products, it seems like they both took a back seat to his latest products such as the Steinway and the Big Band stuff.


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## Hardy Heern (May 1, 2008)

Reply to Midiphase..........

I purposely didn't say anything about their sound but you drew me into it!

Although I don't have them I've listened to many pieces by some of the best programmers and they generally sound great and have brilliant control opportunities (as you say) but they _*do *_sound odd at times.

There was an instance when I gave the exact times of where I thought the Strad sounded odd in a well known classical rendition, Gary threw his toys out of the pram and dragged out his well worn 'A bad carpenter blames his tools prose' which didn't make any sense _*whatsoever *_as I don't own them and was commenting on _*another *_carpenter!  

An extraordinary reaction, which led to me getting banned eventually.....well; when combined with mentioning the VI site....to be fair!  

Frank
PS....BTW Midiphase, I've meant to say, for some time, that if that's your photograph you need to get more sleep!


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## JustinW (May 1, 2008)

From what I understand they (Garritan) stopped shipping them a while ago. I think the cello is awesome.

I believe they will be part of Gary's new string library which is due to come out, I do not know, and use his own sample engine.


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## Hardy Heern (May 1, 2008)

JustinW @ Thu May 01 said:


> From what I understand they (Garritan) stopped shipping them a while ago. I think the cello is awesome.
> 
> I believe they will be part of Gary's new string library which is due to come out, I do not know, and use his own sample engine.



Yes, that's what they say....but it doesn't answer the question of why you would withdraw a money making product which could sell in parallel with future libraries.

All very strange.....

Frank


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## tfishbein82 (May 1, 2008)

midphase @ Thu May 01 said:


> Interesting, I own both so I wonder if there will be some sort of upgrade path for people like me.


I asked him this directly. He said there will be upgrades for an Strad/Gofriller/GOS owners. Exactly what they'll be, who knows...


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## José Herring (May 1, 2008)

I spoke with Gary at NAMM. He mentioned that he's perfected the sample morphing technique which has eliminated the need for destructive editing of the samples which had lead to the unusual sound of the instruments. He also mentioned that he's building a new player programmed up from scratch in c++ code to implement these and other instruments.

Personally I think it holds great promise. Curious to see what he's coming up with.

Jose


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## JonFairhurst (May 1, 2008)

It's possible that there is a dispute between Gary and Giorgio(?) the developer of the (patented) technology. I believe that's why there is no viola or bass.

Gary has the new Aria player. Maybe he just wants to update the samples, sales are slow and he doesn't want to duplicate more K2-based discs (with their license fees).

All I know for sure is that we've been waiting for GPOA and GOS2 for a long time, while there have been rumors of things being just around the corner. It could be a while before we see new solo strings from Garritan.

We will see...


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## Daryl (May 1, 2008)

josejherring @ Thu May 01 said:


> I spoke with Gary at NAMM. He mentioned that he's perfected the sample morphing technique which has eliminated the need for destructive editing of the samples which had lead to the unusual sound of the instruments. He also mentioned that he's building a new player programmed up from scratch in c++ code to implement these and other instruments.
> 
> Personally I think it holds great promise. Curious to see what he's coming up with.
> 
> Jose


The sound was what made the "old" versions so bad to my ears, but then again Rob did a reasonable demo, so maybe it just needs better programming. Then again this sort of denies the supposed playability of the thing.

D


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## Andrew Aversa (May 1, 2008)

He probably sold out the current inventory, but didn't want to bother printing more (after all, printing does take up time and money) if that product was going to be obsolete soon anyway. Plus, since he's moving to ARIA, more customers with the old technology = more drain on resources, as he has to support more people using Kontakt player, etc. Clearly he does want to get away from that.


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## rayinstirling (May 1, 2008)

Well I have the Strad but I must say since getting EW Gypsy I much prefer the violin in that. 
Frank... I've already been reprimanded on this forum for using an NS ban as a badge of honor.


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## midphase (May 1, 2008)

"if that's your photograph you need to get more sleep!"

That's what my wife keeps telling me too!


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## Frederick Russ (May 1, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Thu May 01 said:


> An extraordinary reaction, which led to me getting banned eventually.....well; when combined with mentioning the VI site....to be fair!



Yeah - that's seems to be a surefire formula for getting banned over there. In hindsight, one has to realize that by _imposing strict forum regulations, deleting posts and entire threads, coupled with banning members wholesale they essentially built one of the best communities for composers by default because all the best ones made a beeline to VI_. These disenfranchised folks turned out to be some of our very best members. How's that for shooting oneself in the foot?

o-[][]-o


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## Bruce Richardson (May 2, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Thu May 01 said:


> An extraordinary reaction, which led to me getting banned eventually.....well; when combined with mentioning the VI site....to be fair!



You, too?? Well, the brotherhood of the banned is a fine place to be in my estimation. The signal-to-noise ratio here at VI is so pleasantly good, and all without heavy handedness. You'd think the two phenomena were related....nahhh, couldn't be!!! ~o)


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## artsoundz (May 2, 2008)

rayinstirling @ Thu May 01 said:


> Well I have the Strad but I must say since getting EW Gypsy I much prefer the violin in that.
> Frank... I've already been reprimanded on this forum for using an NS ban as a badge of honor.



absolutely true. Ray,it sounds like you used The Gypsy Violin on "intrigue and Inuendo" .Very nice...


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## nikolas (May 2, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Fri May 02 said:


> Hardy Heern @ Thu May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > An extraordinary reaction, which led to me getting banned eventually.....well; when combined with mentioning the VI site....to be fair!
> ...


But, but, but...

I'm not banned from NSS.

Should I be? :D

____________

No really, seeing that Giorgio came up with the trumpet makes it immediately evident that there is a problem between the two. Selling your remaining stock is always an issue, and I don't think that Giorgio would want that to stop, but it does seem that Gary is now with his hands tide!

For the record I like the strad very much! I find it very well created, although the sound does take quite a bit of tweaking to get into place... :-/


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 2, 2008)

I think Gary just wants to be free of Native Instruments.


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## re-peat (May 2, 2008)

nikolas @ Fri May 02 said:


> But, but, but... I'm not banned from NSS.
> Should I be? :D



Maybe you are banned but Greece doesn't recognize it?

_


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## Waywyn (May 2, 2008)

If Gary wants to have a few more curious and potential buyers he should think about a big "unban" action .. but I think he doesn't care at all.

I so wished that Bruce would have purchased NS


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 2, 2008)

But what does it matter how NS is doing? Personally, I don't miss it at all. There's plenty of great people here.


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## rayinstirling (May 2, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri May 02 said:


> But what does it matter how NS is doing? Personally, I don't miss it at all. There's plenty of great people here.


You smooth talker


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## Waywyn (May 2, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri May 02 said:


> But what does it matter how NS is doing? Personally, I don't miss it at all. There's plenty of great people here.



Yeh, kinda not miss NS and you are definitely right about the people here.

Maybe I am a bit nitpicking but think about the following situation:
You buy a product but you are not allowed to post and talk in the product or company support forum?!? ~o)

I mean of course, I could write or call the support team directly, but how does it feel to support someone with money who excludes you from his community ...

It kinda feels like: Yeh make me rich but leave me alone! :mrgreen:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 2, 2008)

Alex,

Sorry for being blunt, but: my house, my rules. Gary can do whatever he want$ at N$. You and your snotty composer friends don't like it? Who cares? He's gunning for the schools, the amateurs who are just happy to have something that is easy to use and, to their ears, sounds magically real.


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## Hardy Heern (May 2, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri May 02 said:


> Alex,
> 
> Sorry for being blunt, but: my house, my rules. Gary can do whatever he want$ at N$. You and your snotty composer friends don't like it? Who cares? *He's gunning for* the schools, *the amateurs who are just happy to have something that is easy to use and, to their ears, sounds magically real.*



Hey Ned!!! How do you do that; are you psychic? That's me you're describing and you hardly even know me! :lol: 

Frank
I only buy the stuff.....don't have time to actually use it............I was one of the very first purchasers of GPO and haven't even loaded it yet....or my Gold, or.......... :oops:


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## Waywyn (May 2, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri May 02 said:


> Alex,
> 
> Sorry for being blunt, but: my house, my rules. Gary can do whatever he want$ at N$. You and your snotty composer friends don't like it? Who cares? He's gunning for the schools, the amateurs who are just happy to have something that is easy to use and, to their ears, sounds magically real.



Yes, I fully understand, but to me NS is something like a support forum for Garritan products ... and if I am not allowed to be at a support place, why should I support him? That's what I wanted to say

Of course I could just lean back, buy a product of someone and give a damn about what the developer does. So see it from another point. You buy an expensive car, but you being banned from the support hotline


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## nikolas (May 2, 2008)

Wait,

Is Gary banning, or is Mark, or papwalk, or anyone in there doing the ban? It's not Garritan forum exactly is it?

BTW, I'm in London still, so banning SHOULD work on me! :D


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## Waywyn (May 2, 2008)

Well, I don't want to open that old can of worms, but before I was banned on NS, I was excluded of the Garritan forum, because my hints and comments where not really helpful in Gary's eyes ... so no matter if he creates the most realistic orchestra samples ever, I simply don't care.

Basically I like to discuss out problems and I somehow don't like it to just being led to the door without knowing why.


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## rgames (May 2, 2008)

nikolas @ Fri May 02 said:


> It's not Garritan forum exactly is it?



No but they do enforce a policy of "forced veneration" for Garritan products.

The sad truth is that it feels a lot like Kim Jong-Il and North Korea... scary.

rgames


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## Martin Hines (May 2, 2008)

JonFairhurst @ Fri May 02 said:


> It's possible that there is a dispute between Gary and Giorgio(?) the developer of the (patented) technology. I believe that's why there is no viola or bass.



Something definitely happened, and it appears whatever it was took Giorgio Tommasini by surprise.

From the Sample Modeling forum:
http://www.samplemodeling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11 (http://www.samplemodeling.com/forum/vie ... p?f=2&amp;t=11)



Giorgio Tommasini said:


> The Stradivari premature death was unexpected and still surprises me a lot. Mr. Garritan decision was a commercial suicide (given the ongoing request), damaged his image and disappointed many customers.
> 
> Yes, the technology behind the Stradivari and the Gofriller entirely belongs to myself and Stefano Lucato. We might consider creating a new samplemodeled solo strings series, perhaps extended to middle east and far east instruments, using anechoic recordings and the adaptive model approach.
> 
> ...


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## Craig Sharmat (May 2, 2008)

Gary was hired on to be NS's lawyer

enough said


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## kotori (May 2, 2008)

Hardy Heern @ Thu May 01 said:


> Was it that: -
> 1. They weren't selling anymore, or
> 2. That there has been a commercial and/or legal falling out (infringement or whatever) with their previous collaborators and they have been 'wheel clamped'.


Given Giorgio Tommasini's surprise I would suspect that it's neither of these reasons. 



josejherring @ Thu May 01 said:


> I spoke with Gary at NAMM. He mentioned that he's perfected the sample morphing technique which has eliminated the need for destructive editing of the samples which had lead to the unusual sound of the instruments. He also mentioned that he's building a new player programmed up from scratch in c++ code to implement these and other instruments.



Giorgio Tommasini was really the one behind the innovative features of The Strad, so if Garritan has something in the pipeline it's probably not a refinement of those exact techniques but rather something independantly developed. "Sample morphing" could mean anything so I wouldn't be surprised if it is something technically completely different than harmonic alignment. After all, isn't DEF a kind of sample morphing too.

Btw. to me the mention of "destructive editing" seems like a way to portray the competition in a slightly negative way. I think it refers to the instrument body impulse response being applied to deconvolved samples. The Trumpet has demonstrated IMO that by taking care to record the samples in the right way and carefully analysing different playing techniques and introducing some humanization Tommasini's approach yields very natural results.


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## JonFairhurst (May 2, 2008)

Martin Hines @ Fri May 02 said:


> Something definitely happened, and it appears whatever it was took Giorgio Tommasini by surprise.


So, Giorgio owns the technology and Gary owns the samples...

This is why it's important to own rights to everything in our creations. Don't sample other people's music. Get signed releases for your films including people, locations and content.

When two people own something that often means that nobody owns it.


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## Waywyn (May 3, 2008)

JonFairhurst @ Sat May 03 said:


> Martin Hines @ Fri May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Something definitely happened, and it appears whatever it was took Giorgio Tommasini by surprise.
> ...



Hehe, yeh ... and as it seems, especially when you work with Garritan 

Well just to add something serious. I think it is the best what can happen to Giorgio and his team. They proved that they can stand on their own legs and don't need a Garritan to be successful. It seems like Garritan is just making his head through the wall, no matter how many people get hurt or die on the way. He is just a businessman and he once ruled because of GOS, but now ... it's just about "How to rule the world, no matter what it takes" ...

.. and we all know what happened to NS after the "BIG BAN(G)"


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## JonFairhurst (May 3, 2008)

I don't know... I've spent time with Gary at a few CES tradeshows. Sure, he's a businessman, but he's also pretty humble, down to earth and a nice guy.

I also spoke at length with Jeff, the Steinway developer. They really paid attention to the minute details as well as the big picture on that. And, yes, Gary made quite a business deal to get use of the name.

I'm not saying that we should all like Gary's libs, or the way NS is run, but we probably shouldn't make him into a evil cartoon character either.


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## nikolas (May 4, 2008)

> The foremost reason is technological. We want to provide some new advanced performance modeling, dedicated DSP functions and impulse technologies that are possible with ARIA but not currently possible with existing engines. We simply need to bring this into ARIA.
> 
> We also decided to sell bundles rather than individual instrument libraries. Aside from the Steinway; packaging and selling individual instruments for a couple of hundred dollars each is not optimal and not in keeping with our ultimate goals. It makes sense to have a different approach not only for both business reasons, but for the interests of the user. There were also some other reasons for this decision.


From NSS and Gary.

Still doesn't make 100% sense but at least he seems willing to give a more proper explanation...


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## Waywyn (May 4, 2008)

JonFairhurst @ Sat May 03 said:


> I don't know... I've spent time with Gary at a few CES tradeshows. Sure, he's a businessman, but he's also pretty humble, down to earth and a nice guy.



Without sounding harsh, but what do you expect?
Everyone is nice at shows where someone has to present something. He also might be humble and kind for sure. Gary for sure is no children eating tyrant and I never had this picture in mind. ... it is simply the way I experienced it back then, where people just get kicked out of a place because they seem to not really fit in there. This is simply no way to treat someone.
Only because this is the internet and you only see typed letters of people, it doesn't mean to always hit the "delete key". It always reminds me of that Neanderthal man who experienced what a simple club can do ... and then uses it in any possible situation.

It's not that I miss NS at all. What makes me a bit angry is that NS simply won't get over it. If something goes wrong, take out that club and start beating again ... and the most funny thing is when you visit NS: "Status: Banned: Date the ban will be lifted: Coming Soon" =o 

So I am just saying why should I support someone who treats me this way?
I don't care about Gary's products like many others also do.

Yes, I know, if there is some product I don't care about, I could simply write nothing at all, ... but felt like emptying my head again


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## nikolas (May 4, 2008)

Waywyn @ Sun May 04 said:


> So I am just saying why should I support someone who treats me this way?


Because you may enjoy one/some/all of his products maybe? :D I find that I can't care for much really, except the quality of the products. And I don't think I've ever bought something based on how much I like the developer...

As for the whole NS situation, do keep in mind that they could be reading all this and I don't really see much reason for anyone to get "unbanned" (without knowing what happened back then)! You get pissed for not getting unbanned, but you won't support, etc. It's a dual edged sword this...


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## rayinstirling (May 4, 2008)

This discussion seems to be going 'round in circles.
I am an amateur amongst professionals in this forum, but this forum allows honest opinion on any material presented without the need for encouragement simply as a form of "have a nice day". 
Here is my opinion following my ban.
No matter what Garritan produces in future I will never buy it. End of story.


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## Waywyn (May 4, 2008)

rayinstirling @ Sun May 04 said:


> No matter what Garritan produces in future I will never buy it. End of story.



Yeah, ... I think I just don't have the talent to say something within one sentence :D


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## marce (May 4, 2008)

Hi, im most a reader at this forum, daily, and i believe that i have posted very few. But i want to share my point of view if you allow me.
By currency and distance reasons, sample librarys are hard to obtain to me. Time ago with some effort, i finally acquire GPO. I have squeezed this library, and i had complained in the NS forum about the price of the library, why it´s not downloable, and about every bug or problem i found. Reading myself that old posts, i found some of them unreasonable, or at least subjective and little patient(from my side). Even that, i never has been banned or warned about nothing, and i has posted what i thought freely.
Maybe you can made a second try to understand the other side position? At least, i never read from mr Garritan a critic about this forum or it users, that can be a good start.
Just thinking.
Have a nice day...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 4, 2008)

Marce,

You never read a criticism from Garritan about our forum because... it's impossible to even post the name of this forum! Have you read George Orwell's 1984? It could help you to understand why some of us are very critical of NS. Also, just because you have not been banned does not mean that banning for stupid reasons is not going on there. 

PS: GPO too expensive??? Can't agree with you on that one. :?


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## Waywyn (May 4, 2008)

marce @ Sun May 04 said:


> At least, i never read from mr Garritan a critic about this forum or it users, that can be a good start.
> Just thinking.
> Have a nice day...



Hi Marce, I hear ya, but you just have to know that VI Control was at least 40-50% founded because a lot of pros and general users where banned from NS back then, only because they were speaking free and sharing their opinions. So Frederick Russ, founder of VI Control wanted to create a place where users, composers and of course lib developers too, could talk and discuss free about products without being aware of a being banned.

Now, the other thing is, you wouldn't even read something about VI Control over there, because other forums, especially VI Control is not allowed to be mentioned, ... because this is the place where the bad boys are home :twisted:


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## Daryl (May 4, 2008)

Waywyn @ Sun May 04 said:


> Now, the other thing is, you wouldn't even read something about VI Control over there, because other forums, especially VI Control is not allowed to be mentioned, ... because this is the place where the bad boys are home :twisted:


I don't think that is true. It's only forums for developers that haven't paid to advertise on NSS that can't be mentioned.

D


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## nikolas (May 4, 2008)

Oh, btw, the censroship to Freds name still stands. tryu talking about Vangelis in NSS! It yields some ridiculous results!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 4, 2008)

Man, it'~ a g~~d thing that the u~e of the alphabet i~ n~t limited t~ th~~e letter~ that have paid to be u~ed, huh?


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 4, 2008)

I wonder why Gary hasn't responded here. He'd be the one to explain what's going on, and I'd be surprised if he weren't monitoring this thread.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 4, 2008)

Nick, this kind of stuff has been going on for a few years now, and Gary has never defended the banning practices at NS - why would he start now?


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 4, 2008)

I should have said "he'd be the one to explain what's going on *with his libraries.*"

NS is another subject - a very sad one as far as I'm concerned. Their total lack of ethics ruined what used to be a great forum.


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## StrangeCat (May 4, 2008)

"It was very obvious as to why Strad got discontinued but here it is from the guy himself."



As many of you know, I make it a practice to post periodic updates to let everyone know where we are with various projects. Some of you have been requesting a new update. Here is the latest...

Things Have Changed: We're a Software Company Now

We did it! With the release of the Steinway we have now joined the ranks of a full-fledged software company. Sure, the scoffers scoffed and the naysayers said “nay” and some thought it couldn't be done. But we did it and have our own sample engine!

It took several years to reach this point and I never knew what we were getting into. This is quite a different world than being a sample developer using someone else's engine or sampler. There are so many complex considerations - first the unending details, changing feature sets, user interface design and flow, making sure an engine works on a multitude of hosts and platforms, QA, 64 bit support, custom DSP, avoiding conflicts, revising, documentation, building a registration system, compiling for delivery - to name a few. It's mind-boggling and I have a newfound appreciation for what the folks at NI, VSL, Tascam, Steinberg and what other sample engine companies have done. The past year was extremely difficult because in addition to developing ARIA ,we were dealing with porting and major issues with Kontakt 2.

Thanks to the folks at Plogue and the other geniuses on our team, we will now be able to follow our dreams and develop some ground-breaking things.

The ARIA engine has been extremely stable and robust after working on a variety of systems with the Steinway. Hats off the David and the Plogue team.

Q: Why do you keep putting ARIA in all caps?
A: To fully convey its grandeur and majesty.

Product Line:

During the past year the following products have been released or discontinued:

* Authorized Steinway Virtual Concert Grand Piano - Pro & Standard Versions - Shipping
* Concert and Marching Band - Shipping
* GPO and JABB with Kontakt 2 Player - Updates Posted and Boxed Versions shipping
* Reason GPO Refill - Available now for download (only $79)
* Sibelius World Instruments and Sibelius Choirs - Now shipping from Sibelius
* Stradivari Solo Violin and Gofriller Cello - Discontinued


Authorized Steinway Virtual Concert Grand Piano

The Steinway Professional and Standard editions are shipping. It is available from us direct and from our distribution partners.

So far...so good. With a 1.0 release I hoped for the best but expected the unexpected and the worst. But no critical problems. Instead, the support calls/emails have been very minimal and instead, many people are writing just to say how much they like the Steinway.

The manufacture took just a little longer than "imminently" expected. Next time I decide to do a cloth and gold-embossed hardcover manual that's put together by hand - I will add more time to the estimate.

We'll soon launch the Basic version for $99 as soon as the download shop is completed.

An update is being made to address the few issues that have cropped up.We hope our first update will be available soon.

It was such a pleasure working with Steinway and we are turning our focus to producing other Steinway models (like the Model B, A and C)


Personal Orchestra, Jazz/Big Band and Concert/Marching Band

We are busy porting Personal Orchestra, Jazz/Big Band and Concert/Marching Band over to the ARIA Player. We'll also continue to offer these libraries in Kontakt too.

Expect to see more enhancements such as the inclusion of SAM Brass (in ARIA GPO), convolution, MIDI scripting, advanced DSP functions and other features which we'll tell you about as we get closer.

Because we will need to deliver new samples (the NI format is only for the Kontakt libraries), there will probably be a reasonable update charge.

Orchestral Strings 2, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, etc.

We're changing course with regards to our strings offerings for a number of reasons. As previously noted, the Stradivari Violin and Gofriller Cello have been discontinued (as was GOS for GigaStudio). We are working on a total strings solution in GOS2 for section strings along with solo strings. The foremost reason is technological. We want to provide some new advanced performance modeling, dedicated DSP functions and impulse technologies that are possible with ARIA but not currently possible with existing engines. We simply need to bring this into ARIA.

We also decided to sell bundles rather than individual instrument libraries. Aside from the Steinway; packaging and selling individual instruments for a couple of hundred dollars each is not optimal and not in keeping with our ultimate goals. It makes sense to have a different approach not only for both business reasons, but for the interests of the user. There were also some other reasons for this decision.

We'll continue to offer tech support and there will be an upgrade path for existing Strad, Cello and GOS users but we haven't figured that one out yet (let alone pricing).

We have been working very hard on the project and it has had so many twists and turns along the way. When the new strings library is out, I think this going to be something special and set new standards. Yes, it is taking longer than we imagined. I'll comment further when the time is right.


A Chorus Line

As previously posted, the Choir is progressing just nicely. Garritan Choirs comprise samples from members of one of the world's most well-known choirs. We are still in R&D mode with the lyric singing capabilities. So don't expect anything too soon. Still working on the multilingual plug-in and have successfully tested lyrics with our favorite multilingual words such as:
"dar calabazas’ (to give pumpkins), "tsuji-giri" (Japanese for trying out a new sword on a passer-by) and "vetullperpjekur" (joined together eyebrows). How could you pass up the opportunity to impress people with singing words like that? You are going to be able to swoon just about anyone in any language with this choir library. And just imagine adding a Greek Chorus to your projects!

I would put up some demos but I'll never hear the end of people saying they have to have now and making bribes to be on the beta team.

General MIDI (GEM)

The General MIDI Reason Refill is in beta testing and will be released soon.

Regarding the full GM library, in the last update I told you about some of the issues we were facing (another Murphy's Law scenario). I asked whether we should release it sooner but forgo some of the features we wanted, or wait until we can bring it into our own player. It seems most wanted to wait until we can offer it in ARIA. So we are busy working on programming the General MIDI set for ARIA.


Pipe Organ

So far so good. Working on ARIA programming and some new features we want to add. If any of you are professional organists and want to help out when we get to beta, please let us know.

And there's more products coming but we'll complete what's on our plate first.

We're made a big leap with the launch of the Steinway with the ARIA player. The hard part and most difficult task is behind us - which was the development of the engine. Subsequent libraries are going to be far easier and much quicker.

Thank you all for your suggestions, criticisms, ideas, wish lists, thoughts for improvements, and comments as they help us to make better libraries.

I've learned not to announce estimated release dates. First, they are hard to keep due to unforeseen circumstances beyond our control. Second, some people will hold you to them despite disclaimers, vagueness or attempts at transparency.

As a new software company, the complexity and what can go wrong has just grown exponentially. There's quite a bit of work to do and we don't want to rush, so we're not sure as to dates. A hard thing to decide is when to release when there is "just one more feature to add".

Libraries will be released when they are released, we will serve no wine before its time, to everything there is a season...

That's the latest for now. Thanks all for your patience, your ideas and help, and your support!

All the best,

Gary Garritan

[reposted from the Garritan forum]
Garritan is online now


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## Hans Adamson (May 4, 2008)

StrangeCat @ Sun May 04 said:


> "It was very obvious as to why Strad got discontinued but here it is from the guy himself."
> 
> Hmm,
> 
> Somehow I don't think this was the appropriate thread to give Gary free advertising on prime time sample libs discussion. Discussing and mentioning any lib is one thing, but copying and pasting Gary's sales pitch over several pages...??? Gary has stated that he will never post on VI Control. As far as I am concerned - that is his loss. Surrogate posting for him just allows statements that can't be challenged, or explained. He has certainly not made himself deserving of such a service on VI Control.


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## StrangeCat (May 4, 2008)

Sales pitch? I was showing you why the Strad was canceled. I understand about the competition for piano samples etc. 
Competition is good it keeps people from being lazy and helps them strive to do there best, with out it businesses cannot continue to be better.
Anywayz I won't do that in the future. I don't and won't ever get involved with the politics of Developers or discussions on forums.
My Bad. (o)


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## FireGS (May 4, 2008)

I've heard from some reliable sources that it was the fact that Gary wanted to leave N.I, and develop his own engine. The technology that Giorgio and team developed was specifically for K2/3 scripting - something the new engine wouldn't support (obviously).

The surprising move Giorgio must be talking about is the move away from NI.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 5, 2008)

SC,

While it is definitely a sales pitch it is still interesting to at least get the info from one side.


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## Frederick Russ (May 5, 2008)

In this context the sales pitch is interesting and pertinent, therefore to me its valid SC.


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## Peter Alexander (May 5, 2008)

I'm not speaking for any company, but in most of the reviews I'm doing for Film Music Weekly, the libraries coming from Europe are mostly K2. 

Of the libraries coming, I do have some inside knowledge that GOS2 is going to be a very exciting package, which I'm certainly looking forward to hearing.


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2008)

Hm,....about banned people at NS :? 

I very often wrote about other libraries in NS threads than Garritan`s libraries. And I know Gary said very often that musicpieces who are arranged with Garritan libraries and others together are all welcome there in their listeningroom...!
I did some too.

And, I am not banned!

Just my 2 cents  

Gunther


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## Craig Sharmat (May 5, 2008)

you would not be banned for using others libraries, NS would have no members if they did that, but you would be banned for criticizing GG libs and a few others. You will also be banned for questioning forum policies. Here you can critique any library good and bad with no fear of repercussions. the difference is that this community is mostly user supported so it will not bend to the whims of an unhappy developer. the best user forums on the web seem to have this as a common theme. Take The Gear Page for instance

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/

almost 30,000 members and over 1.5 million posts from guitarists. As a professional guitarist for many years let me tell you that is one tough bunch of people but everything works smoothly over there. Developers chime in but have no more power than the average Joe posting for the first time.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2008)

Gunther, it sounds like you missed the history that led to this forum being started. What happened is that NS started banning the brightest people on the board right left and center. Was it a coincidence that the people who got banned had usually dissed a product from an advertiser on the forum? The people who run the forum would always deny that and say they had other reasons, but it sure had that appearance.

Then Frederick started this forum and they went nuts banning the heart and soul of that board. The point at which I abandoned all hope was when they banned Craig for absolutely no reason other than paranoia and moral weakness. [Edit: not his, I mean theirs!] For heaven's sake, he's the person who organized the Los Angeles Northern Sounds dinners!

I still find the situation sad when I think about it, because it was really a great forum, and I met a lot of great people through it. Without NS I wouldn't have been able to launch Virtual Instruments magazine. The day I made the announcement there 60 people subscribed, and the positive feedback there after the first issue was what got it off the ground.

But at this point I just don't feel right about taking part in the discussions there, and as a result I've only checked in very briefly maybe three times in the last couple of years. As far as I know they still have a lot of members, but it's not the same.

And however they justify their mistakes, all this was totally unnecessary.

But it's real, Gunther, not just a bunch of people here bitching and moaning for no reason.


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## Hans Adamson (May 5, 2008)

germancomponist @ Mon May 05 said:


> Hm,....about banned people at NS :?
> 
> I very often wrote about other libraries in NS threads than Garritan`s libraries. And I know Gary said very often that musicpieces who are arranged with Garritan libraries and others together are all welcome there in their listeningroom...!
> I did some too.
> ...



Gunther,

There has not always been a Gary standing on the doorstep of Northernsounds greeting new members to that site as if he was the owner. NS had a time when it was THE place on the Internet for "Music and Sampling". It was THE place for every developer and user, amateur and pro. Today it is mostly a promotion site for Garritan. Something happened between then and today. One result of the turmoil is the genesis of VI-Control. NS have a history way back. Check out the early days, still on the Internet:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/11806/

I wholeheartedly recommend all VI members to donate to keep VI Control free and independent:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/donate.html


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## nikolas (May 5, 2008)

In NSS there's more companies than Garritan only! Bela D. Media, Kirk Hunter, there was once NOTION, Finale and Sibelius forums I believe, etc... 

I really can't understand why this war can't be bridged? I just don't get it. Of course I wasn't around 3-4 years ago, already said that, but it still remains like a bit sore spot for many people, here as well as there. :-/ Companies are loosing potential customers, forums are missing great members, people are missing great products. It's a big loss, if I understand it correctly! Not that I have any hopes of doing anything about, or I would want to, tbh, have enough stuff to do on my own! :D 

I dunno... :-/


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2008)

Hey Nikolas,

I think no one can understand what has happened back then who didn't participate on NS at that time. Basically NS was the shit ... I remember when I was first referred to NS and opened the website. I couldn't believe my eyes - so many composers, so many pro's, so much help, so much to talk about. Until then I felt like a rocker living with grandma's and suddenly you find a place with like-minded people 

I learned tons of stuff, I met supercool people, I remember posting my first demo for EW etc. ... There were so many cool and professional people. It was basically a dream back then. Suddenly a product was released and someone told his open opinion about it ... and then it basically started. It was like french execution. "Heads were rolling" almost everyday  The BIG BAN(G) ...

... and then everything changed. No more open minded discussions about products and almost every comment on no matter how crappy shitty 3 track composition was awesome, stunning, breathtaking, brilliant writing ...
If someone cricitsed a product such as GPO etc. it was sure that either his post or the poster himself would be banned a few hours/days later.

Don't get me wrong. Everyone's piece is the first. I composed (and still do) a lot of crap ) ... but generally there are comments who are helpful and constructive and there are comments for the comments sake.

Now I can of course only speak for myself and of course I could leave all that behind, but it still bugs me that such a beaufitul place was destroyed because of money ... and it was basically not the fault of many but one developer ...

Back then you were able to hear pieces of music which literally slammed someone back against the wall ... forced you to go on and you always had this one question written on your forehead: How the fu** did that guy do that?!?!? 

... and now, it is the GPO praise place and if you are not welcome you will be thrown out - that's whats left over.

But of course, I guess you would understand much better if you would have participated back then ... now the discussion might look like a wimpy pimpy whiny "this guy beat me" discussion ... /\~O

Anyway, I found a new and better love ... but if I see Garritan announcements around here I still get hickup


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## Nick Phoenix (May 5, 2008)

The real downfall was for me when EWQLSO and GPO came out. Gary was trying to convince people that GPO was a pro product, to be used in final TV/FILM/GAME productions. He had his crew online spreading the word of the master and it got pretty ugly. He had 10 guys in every thread criticizing EWQLSO and praising GPO. It never even came out that GPO didn't have staccato/marcato, for example. When I complained to Papa Chalk and GMoney or whatever his name is, they told me I was imagining it. That Gary could tell people with a straight face to buy GPO over EWQLSO for finished pro productions makes him the lowest of low. We had dozens of emails from tv/game composers who felt they were hoodwinked by Gary into buying GPO instead of EWQLSO. The fact that he has his whole crew who works on his software posting as regular users, while he never says anything controversial and plays the part of the caring educational maverick, makes the wiser of us sick. We finally packed our bags when NS wanted more money to keep our forum there.

VSL, Sonic Implants, Project SAM, Spectrasonics, Art Vista and many others, as well as my company QL have a passion for sound. That comes before the business side. And the people that produce the products for these companies actually do, or supervise, or understand and invent the concepts being employed. 

Example:

Larritan's Tiny Balls Brass Band:

One of the guys I hired to play on Gypsy told me he had done a sample project before. He said it was kind of weird because the guy called him and said that he needed a bunch of articulations for big band. The musician asked which ones and Gary said that he needed the basic sustains stabs and falls and whatever else he could think of. The musician asked what studio he should go to and Gary said just use whatever mic you have and do it in your garage.


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## the sinner (May 5, 2008)

Interesting discussion.

I was also banned from NSS - I have no idea what I did at all. I was also banned from Soundsonline for saying a flute sample was out of tune. In my opinion the SOL forum has lost its customer support forum because there were so many complaints it was making them look bad. Just my opinion however - plz dont ban me! ha

On a side note GPO was my first "soft" Library - for the price you can definitely not complain. It is not gold to my ears however. I have contacted Garry and he seems very nice, and the newer products seem like he is moving in a positive direction - I will stay tuned to his new products.

You all here are just great however!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2008)

Fellow Niklas wrote:

"I really can't understand why this war can't be bridged?"

Because there's too much water under that bridge and everyone's moved on. You can't bring back Opcode either.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2008)

"In NSS there's more companies than Garritan only! Bela D. Media, Kirk Hunter, there was once NOTION, Finale and Sibelius forums I believe, etc..."

Yes, and what happened to the forum isn't any reflection on any of those companies. It has to do with the people running the board not standing up to pressure, I suspect.

And having edited...I believe 142 magazine issues at this point (125 Recording and 17 Virtual Instruments), it's certainly not like I don't understand those pressures. But even if I had no ethics, it would always be easier to replace a few advertisers than thousands of readers.

The same principle applies to forums, although either they still have lots of members and therefore aren't bothered, or else they allow lots of bots to sign up so it looks like they have them. (Most forums get dozens of bogus bot signup attempts every month. I know Frederick and Chrislight don't authorize them.)


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## Nick Phoenix (May 5, 2008)

the sinner @ Mon May 05 said:


> Interesting discussion.
> 
> I was also banned from NSS - I have no idea what I did at all. I was also banned from Soundsonline for saying a flute sample was out of tune. In my opinion the SOL forum has lost its customer support forum because there were so many complaints it was making them look bad. Just my opinion however - plz dont ban me! ha
> 
> ...



SOL has it's problems too. I'm not involved with the moderating. However, it is labeled for what it is. It is not pretending to be a discussion of all virtual instruments and samples.


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## nikolas (May 5, 2008)

Nick Phoenix (cause there are two Nicks to talk to now): It's good that you commented on the SOL "issue". There is a current discussion over at NSS right this moment about SOL and EW! :D And I'm also glad that you're not involved in moderating!  Really glad! 

Nick Batzdorf: How come you call me Niklas in your couple of latest posts (this thread and the thread about the folders and Gold)? Is it a tpyo, or something else?  Just wondering...


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2008)

Germany, Greece, what's the difference? They both start with G.



(Actually it was a thinko, not a typo - I just knew it wasn't the way my name is spelled: Nicholas. Sorry about that.)


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## Hans Adamson (May 5, 2008)

rob morsberger @ Mon May 05 said:


> My two cents.
> 
> Used to love NS too. I defended it for a long time. The last straw for me was a very lively and interesting discussion about the Garritan Steinway inititiated by none other than Bruce Richardson. It was a responsible and important debate. I enjoyed participating and sharing concerns. The thread was abruptly deleted. It was so offensive. I never posted on the forum again and here I am.
> 
> ...


Most people in this business are bound to silence under confidentiality, or threat of lawsuits etc. I agree with Rob that Gary is a charming guy with benevolent appearance, actually almost something of a Santa Clause on some occasions. This image is of course very important, and may make you disregard any less likeable sides displayed on public forums etc. 

However, it is not really the public persona that is at the bottom of the controversies around NS. Gary is a business man. He knows how to run a business.


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2008)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon May 05 said:


> Larritan's Tiny Balls Brass Band:
> 
> One of the guys I hired to play on Gypsy told me he had done a sample project before. He said it was kind of weird because the guy called him and said that he needed a bunch of articulations for big band. The musician asked which ones and Gary said that he needed the basic sustains stabs and falls and whatever else he could think of. The musician asked what studio he should go to and Gary said just use whatever mic you have and do it in your garage.



Nick,

with all my respect to you and your very great work, I can not believe this.... . Are you sure that this conversation has taken place so?

My best,

Gunther


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## Nick Phoenix (May 5, 2008)

That's what the guy told me. Truly and I never said anything to egg him on. It was the trombone. I have worse Garritan stories than that. Classy? I need somewhere that I can talk honestly with people.


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## artsoundz (May 5, 2008)

quote "Greeks start wars too, Alex. "


Maybe we shouldn't be so hard on Greeks. After all, they invented sex.

Then the Italians introduced it to women. (sorry, Nikolas=couldn't resist)


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2008)

[quote:4fdebed273="artsoundz @ Mon May 05, 2008 10:25 pm"]quote "Greeks start wars too, Alex. "


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## artsoundz (May 5, 2008)

"German Brassband in a beer-tent at Oktoberfest" 

The writing is fine but I can't help but think- The more you drink, the better it sounds.

BTW- LOVE the jazz drumset in Jazz and Big band.....

but back to the real topic- I've also changed about Nsounds. Started out fine and while I was never banned (threatened to for saying something about Republicans in jest), 

the elimination of topics (still disgaree w you, Rob, about the "importance " of the Steinway issue) and...

the general fear of saying the wrong thing- It was just too much- not to mention the uncomfy hugfest. 

VI. is -by far-(despite the occasional Obama moments).a place where one can belong to a FAMILY of like minded souls without fear of retribution. 

Aeneas, Scott Rogers- come home!( but you'll have to stay in the garage..).

GO'BAMA!


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2008)

artsoundz @ Mon May 05 said:


> "German Brassband in a beer-tent at Oktoberfest"
> 
> The writing is fine but I can't help but think- The more you drink, the better it sounds.
> 
> !



Smile,

thanks for your comment about my writing!

"The more you drink, the better it sounds", lol, isn`t it the truth at the most places where brass-bands are playing? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Craig Sharmat (May 5, 2008)

consider this, many of us are not welcome at NSS

but

we would not do the disservice of banning the people who ban us there on this forum. Most views have value and this forum is about people sharing views and giving insight. If Gary wanted to post here we would welcome his contributions but I suspect he would not post here. This is because he would also have to deal with the backlash of many members not liking his products.


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue May 06 said:


> consider this, many of us are not welcome at NSS
> 
> but
> 
> we would not do the disservice of banning the people who ban us there on this forum. Most views have value and this forum is about people sharing views and giving insight. If Gary wanted to post here we would welcome his contributions but I suspect he would not post here. This is because he would also have to deal with the backlash of many members not liking his products.



Maybe someone will copy and paste this thread to him at an e-mail.... .


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## artsoundz (May 5, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Mon May 05 said:


> consider this, many of us are not welcome at NSS
> 
> but
> 
> we would not do the disservice of banning the people who ban us there on this forum. Most views have value and this forum is about people sharing views and giving insight. If Gary wanted to post here we would welcome his contributions but I suspect he would not post here. This is because he would also have to deal with the backlash of many members not liking his products.



right. And the irony is, he would be treated very fairly here I think.

As an example,there are a couple of horn developers here that have some problems with their products yet few have really put their feet to the fire. I think that comes from a level of professionalism and respect and just plain common courtesy not found up north.

I would hope that with Mr. G's business 'chops", he would recognize that it could be a win for him in the end. but, politics being what they are.. I'm not holding my breath.(however. I AM circular breathing....)


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## marce (May 5, 2008)

so, what understand is this: suppose the ones that were banned were not, and they were still posting at NS forum, they will post in any forum section except in the Garritan section. And any time someone asked about some Garritan product a rain of negative opinios would be expressed by this members, even that his products were recorded in a "garage". Basically, if you believe than Garritan programs are good, you understand 80% of his position in this disagreement
Well, if i was in his place, i would not feel comfortable in that situation. And even if i drive a forum, and one of my parters is bashed continuously, i believe that something i would do. 
Said that, i like this forum, since i like to hear real user opinions, and i like that forum because too, and i respect and feel normal to mantain an etiquete of respect and care with about i said, since is a developer forum.


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## rob morsberger (May 5, 2008)

Hans: I hear what you're saying.
Kevin (artsoundz)...the discussion was 'important' enough to merit its
prompt disappearance.
Nick Phoenix: if being 'honest' means to slur a competitor's products with an
unsubstantiated rumor started by an anonymous trombone player...more power to you.


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## nomogo (May 5, 2008)

What else is to be expected on a forum owned by a vested interest? Of course there will be censorship, and bias towards that which makes them money. Discourse will always be more open on forums such as this.

I respect Gary for what he does, he opens up a world of sampling to a lot of people. Personally the products fall a bit short for professional use, but he obviously is leaning more towards an educational approach, which they achieve.


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## the sinner (May 5, 2008)

rob morsberger @ Mon May 05 said:


> Hans: I hear what you're saying.
> Kevin (artsoundz)...the discussion was 'important' enough to merit its
> prompt disappearance.
> Nick Phoenix: if being 'honest' means to slur a competitor's products with an
> unsubstantiated rumor started by an anonymous trombone player...more power to you.



Good post


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## Nick Phoenix (May 5, 2008)

rob morsberger @ Mon May 05 said:


> Hans: I hear what you're saying.
> Kevin (artsoundz)...the discussion was 'important' enough to merit its
> prompt disappearance.
> Nick Phoenix: if being 'honest' means to slur a competitor's products with an
> unsubstantiated rumor started by an anonymous trombone player...more power to you.



Gary doesn't need any help from me to look bad. Ask him who he used, and where the guy lives, and did Gary attend the session (in LA LOL) and what studio (LOL) he used. He's not really any competition either. The trombone player told me this to my face. Just like I told ya. Eventually, if you leave too may piles of shit around, people start to notice.


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## clonewar (May 5, 2008)

Regarding NSS.. for me the beginning of the end was their policies on group buys. They started policing group buys and would only let one company at a time advertise a group buy. Even if another company had a group buy going any mention of it was immediately DELETED (happened to me one time, accompanied by a warning). I don't know what the charge was to advertise a group buy or if NSS even took a cut, but in the beginning they pretty much had the developers by the balls because that was the one place on the web where all potential customers were in the same place.


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## Bruce Richardson (May 5, 2008)

I was banned at that forum for being intellectually true to myself. That was my crime. I didn't call people names. I didn't play loose with facts. I had no trouble admitting I was wrong when I was. I tried to help people. I tried to shatter myths and misconceptions. I asked hard questions when they needed to be asked. I behaved no differently than I behave here.


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## Bruce Richardson (May 5, 2008)

clonewar @ Mon May 05 said:


> don't know what the charge was to advertise a group buy or if NSS even took a cut



Ten points.


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## Moonchilde (May 6, 2008)

Nick Phoenix @ May 5th 2008 said:


> Gary doesn't need any help from me to look bad. Ask him who he used, and where the guy lives, and did Gary attend the session (in LA LOL) and what studio (LOL) he used. He's not really any competition either. The trombone player told me this to my face. Just like I told ya. Eventually, if you leave too may piles of [email protected]#t around, people start to notice.



Good lord, you act like your shit doesn't stink. You're being a pompous smug jerk. We get it! We've all seen the marketing and advertisements that EWQLSO is recorded in a hall worth 10 _MILLION_ DOLLARS!! WUAAAHAHAHAHA. LOLOLOL, Lets get much lulz going on because the competitor's recording venue stinks with the only evidence being word of mouth! You know, EWQLSO isn't free from flaws either. Did you attend your recording sesssion? Because sometimes I wonder after hearing a blatant player flaws in some of the samples.

You also made it a point to criticize the lack of staccato type samples in his product. How would you feel if the VSL devs sat on a high horse in the same manner and pointed and laughed at you high and mightily saying you don't have true legato samples? You'd probably get alll defensive and quote a billion magazines that say EWQLSO kicks ass and quote sales numbers. Everyone can be critical of everything, and you could have been more constructive about it like nearly everyone else on this forum when it comes to this stuff, but you aren't. Its one thing to speak your mind freely here, but you as a product developer also have an image and reputation to make, and right now yours isn't very good.

Oh, and about the piles of shit thing being left around and people noticing... I was going to say something mean, but I really don't want to stoop to your level. Thats all I have to say about this.


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## tfishbein82 (May 6, 2008)

If there's one thing to take away from this thread, it's that this place rocks. If you feel the same, http://www.vi-control.net/forum/donate.html (do this).


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## Nick Phoenix (May 6, 2008)

Moonchilde @ Tue May 06 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ May 5th 2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Gary doesn't need any help from me to look bad. Ask him who he used, and where the guy lives, and did Gary attend the session (in LA LOL) and what studio (LOL) he used. He's not really any competition either. The trombone player told me this to my face. Just like I told ya. Eventually, if you leave too may piles of [email protected]#t around, people start to notice.
> ...



I do attend my recording sessions and do it because I love sounds. The business side and all the details and problems are enough to drive anyone crazy. This is NOT about who has the best sounds. I'm better than you blah blah. My image should be good because I pour my heart into my stuff, just like the other reputable, honest companies. Don't have a nervous breakdown.


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## lux (May 6, 2008)

Watching at your attitude here i have to guess you feel way more hurted by Gary than the opposite...

If youre just so sure, why dont u just stay at the window? You guys had a few problems with criticism here, that pissed me a lot off at that time, expecially when it belong to the advertising thing (you know what i'm talking about).

I've never been Gary's fan, I've been banned as well, I like your stuff more than his. But that said I preferred the Northern Enclosure than some shit gossip ouf of a trombone player. 

In all honesty.


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## nikolas (May 6, 2008)

YAY!

Fight! FIGHT! FIGHT! 

The crowd cheers and rocks!


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## Frederick Russ (May 6, 2008)

nikolas @ Tue May 06 said:


> YAY!
> 
> Fight! FIGHT! FIGHT!
> 
> The crowd cheers and rocks!





Really guys - simmer down and have a beer or something...


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## JohnG (May 6, 2008)

I'm all for aggressively positioning oneself, but swearing at other posters or name-calling or saying someone is a liar is just not constructive, for me at least.

Reporting a first-hand conversation that Nick had with someone who said he was an actual participant could be criticised for any number of reasons, I guess, since it's a free country. 

However, for me, suggesting, or insisting that he or the person who was quoted is lying or sleazy because Nick is a rival is at least name-calling, and arguably irrational unless you have proof or testimony that it is not a true story. In this circumstance, it seems to me, in my own ignorance, that the possibility of the story being true is reasonable, given the fact that Gary subcontracts his sampling at least part of the time. I may well be wrong, but I have never seen Gary suggest that his are the libraries you use when scoring for Warner Brothers [EDIT: I am wrong on this point -- apologies -- I have been corrected several times by better-informed posters on this one issue, that Gary has directly compared his libraries to Vienna, ESQL etc.]. He prepares libraries at a very reasonable cost for working composers to do mock-ups, use Finale and so on. [edited]

If Nick said he heard that someone told someone else something -- third- or fourth-hand -- that would be hearsay in court, and in many countries (not all) hearsay is not allowable testimony in a criminal trial.

But that is not the case here. Nick says he heard it first-hand. He didn't say it was true, just reported a story. If you don't believe it, you don't have to, but Nick isn't even insisting it's true. The fact that Gary G subcontracts is not disputed, so calling Nick or the other guy a liar or slanderous or sleazy is, at least to me, leaping to many conclusions. Just because it's about a competitor doesn't automatically make it untrue. 

So anyway, I urge that we be combative if we want -- go at it! -- but I hope we don't have to be reduced to swearing at each other or name-calling or saying people are lying unless we have real evidence to the contrary.


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## Niah (May 6, 2008)

you fools, can't you see what's happening here? Mr G is dividing us...

now unite ! to the batttttlleeefieeelllddss o=<


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## Hans Adamson (May 6, 2008)

I can understand Nick's frustration very well. 

Regarding the claim that GPO was "Hollywood film ready": Wasn't there a campaign on NS where GG, or the GPO army, claimed that "there is no Hollywood sound" in orchestral recording, and that GPO was just as suitable for Hollywood film scores. Maybe I remember wrong? (o)


----------



## Nick Phoenix (May 6, 2008)

Yeah Hans. I guess I should just get over it and be a mature adult. ~o)


----------



## Waywyn (May 6, 2008)

JohnG @ Tue May 06 said:


> ... but I have never seen Gary suggest that his are the libraries you use when scoring for Warner Brothers. He prepares libraries at a very reasonable cost for working composers to do mock-ups, use Finale and so on. Very different from the ambitions of Vienna or EWQL or many others.



Sorry, but only because you didn't experienced such a situation, it doesn't mean it never happend 
You wanna know what I was banned for out of Garritan forum on NS back then?
To that time I gave a lot of hints and stuff to people especially on the Garritan forums and after a post where I was saying that GPO is definitely a cool tool for sketches and mockups, ... I was banned  The only reason Mr. G. gave me was something like: What do you want? You don't own GPO, you are not welcome here!" ... How niiiiice! And if you don't have the fabulous GPO package, even your help stinks ... thank you!

At that time I was arround, Gary really compared GPO to EWQLSO, VSL, SAM etc. and that it was made of state of the art class A sample material which could definitely compete with any other top notch library ...


----------



## Angel (May 6, 2008)

Oh Waywyn... I was banned for exactly the same reason 
But PapaChalk and Gary Herself insulted me directly via email.
I am still waiting for gnome and jabba entering my dooryard... i gotta go... I think I smell them coming...


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## Waywyn (May 6, 2008)

Angel @ Tue May 06 said:


> Gary Herself ...



Damn, NOW my gear is wet!


----------



## JohnG (May 6, 2008)

Waywyn @ 6th May 2008 said:


> JohnG @ Tue May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > ... but I have never seen Gary suggest that his are the libraries you use when scoring for Warner Brothers. He prepares libraries at a very reasonable cost for working composers to do mock-ups, use Finale and so on. Very different from the ambitions of Vienna or EWQL or many others.
> ...




Yes -- I understand that I am wrong (thanks to you and others who are correcting me here); I just never saw it and erroneously made an assumption. My mistake on this one point and will edit.

My main issue is that I am ok with aggressive arguments but I don't like name-calling or saying people are liars without strong evidence.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 6, 2008)

John I appreciate your level headedness. I could use some of that.

.....But then again, maybe someone would rest their beer on top of it.


----------



## redleicester (May 6, 2008)

S'alright Nick, you're only a short little bugger, I'l rest my pint on you. :D

Chaps, every time Fred has come knocking at the door cap in hand begging for the cents from our pocket change, I have been more than happy to oblige. How many other forums could we each name of the top of our heads where we are free to:

A) name and shame without fear of retribution
B) have a stand up row with the mods and then buy them a pint
C) get invited to some shindig in the Santa Monica docks and end up sat so close to Bruce that the end result is snow-blindness in one eye
D) have a stand up row with Nick P about his Play engine being fatally flawed, yet in the same thread tell him it's so exciting and we can't wait for it to sing of its best
E) have to explain slang and idioms to Nick B who should know better having once upon a time graced the shores of your former Imperial Masters

You never get well all of the time with all of your mates, and fundamentally us creative types are FAR more volatile than the average 9-5er in their mind-numbing day job. Thank god that after the debacles of the past few years and sucessive forum wrangles we do have VI where we are free to indulge in the above. Sadly I have never managed to get banned from NS, despite years of trying, and in fact I have become so bored I just gave up going there. Perhaps they'd got bored of banning everyone and I was just keeping the lights on. Bah, shan't be bothering again.

As for Garritan products.... hollywood sound..... stop it, if I laugh any harder I'll probably pass out. I had forgotten that little episode in their history, and I've had an appalling day of deadlines and shouty clients, so I much appreciate that timely reminder!

So it only remains for me to suggest a couple of further modifications:

A) First VI banning should be of Mike Greene. He's just too tall. It's not on. I want to be tallest around here thank you very much.
B) You lot should come over to the UK for the next VI dinner - that plane ticket cost me a sodding fortune
C) Can we have more of the Queen's English please, less split infinitives and more polysyllables
D) Damnit why have I still only got one Gold Star.... got more than that at McDonalds FFS
E) Can I go to bed now please, I'm knackered (erm.... English slang.... I'm tired okay....)

:D :D :D :D

PS - F) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE no more references to Bruce's buttocks.... I just can't cope..... oh god.... the image is burned on my brain..... >8o


----------



## Craig Sharmat (May 6, 2008)

stars have only to do with time spent registered here. After each year the software adds a star. You shall be receiving your 2nd star on sept 22 whether you like it or not.

There was a gathering a few yrs back in london, before I knew you. I would love to do another there in the future.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 6, 2008)

That was a whopping corker of a truly brill and neither naff nor pants post. Tally ho.


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## John DeBorde (May 6, 2008)

redleicester @ Tue May 06 said:


> PS - F) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE no more references to Bruce's buttocks.... I just can't cope..... oh god.... the image is burned on my brain..... >8o



I hear it's as white as his hair too. At least that's what Nick told me.


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## Scott Cairns (May 6, 2008)

Waywyn @ Wed May 07 said:


> ...where I was saying that GPO is definitely a cool tool for sketches and mockups, ... I was banned



Besides the rampant banning, thats the thing that really annoyed me. 

When GPO was first announced, it was touted as a 'sketching tool' (or words to that effect)

There was even a picture of game composer Jeremy Soule sitting at the beach; laptop, small keyboard and his feet in the water, using GPO to flesh out his next masterpiece.

When Easwest announced the Silver version of EWQLSO, all the sudden GPO was the ducknuts for EVERYTHING.

YES - it can do full orchestral renders, sound like the 'Hollywood sound' and so on.

I would've had more respect for the product if they had've stayed true to their original intentions with it; a useful mockup tool, good for composing on the go, etc.

Oh, and did someone say beer? o-[][]-o o-[][]-o (thats gotta be the best emoticon of all time)


----------



## Scott Cairns (May 6, 2008)

Ah here it is, those were the days :D 







_In this promo shot for GPO, video game composer Jeremy Soule (Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Star Wars: Bounty Hunter, and many more), demonstrates how personal a digital orchestra can be. *We assume he connects the USB cable when he composes for real.*_

Priceless.


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## StrangeCat (May 6, 2008)

I don't really post on NS anymore atleast I try not to. 
I almost got banned after I gave my opinion on that Kids winning orchestra music demo(sounded like cliche' game music and even had a cheezy tamborine rhythm made even cheezy'er by using GPO instead of a live recording while you watched a live orchestra? WTF)
I couldn't believe that little skinny kid won LOL!

I really want to talk about the new Piano(Steinway) with the Aria player thing but yea....probably not a good idea.
Pianoteq has more detail more velocity layers and is better balance from PP to P in the Dynamics then the demos of that Steinway.

I think in order for GPO to sounds like just one violin string sound of Gold Pro XP you have to use a lot of tracks as one midi channel , 1st player, second player, solo, sus strings, and then sort of tweek each one little so there not totally perfect. then add convolution it's a lot of work. 
o-[][]-o


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## artsoundz (May 6, 2008)

The Steinway piano is as good as anything out there, to be fair. W/pianos it's all apples and oranges anymore.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 6, 2008)

"I hear it's as white as his hair too. At least that's what Nick told me."

You weren't supposed to tell anyone!


----------



## rob morsberger (May 6, 2008)

funny stuff.
redleicester, your post was priceless. Thank you.


----------



## nomogo (May 6, 2008)

Scott Cairns @ Tue May 06 said:


> Ah here it is, those were the days :D
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He must be working on the next Christmas album =o


----------



## Przemek K. (May 6, 2008)

The whole banning is really ridiculous. At that time I read through the whole thread at NS forum and was shocked. As some of you already mentioned, NS was a good place many years ago, but now, it feels different.

Its good to always have a choice 

Now that Mr. G discontinues the Strad and Gofriller, which I wanted to purchase this year, I'm afraid I will not do so. What sense does it make to buy a product which will
not be supported in the future ( 64 bit? )


----------



## redleicester (May 7, 2008)

Rousseau @ Wed May 07 said:


> redleicester @ Wed May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Damn you, you southern softie leftie tree-hugging shirtlifter..... dinner's on you next week then!
> ...



So long as the gorgeous Susie is there, then I shall be a happy man and not have to stare at your ugly mug all evening... 0oD


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## Stephen Baysted (May 7, 2008)

redleicester @ Wed May 07 said:


> Rousseau @ Wed May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > redleicester @ Wed May 07 said:
> ...



She will be as long as you promise to behave and not talk about those horrid Musicals - we only do opera dear chap :mrgreen:


----------



## redleicester (May 7, 2008)

But Gilbert and Sullivan rock..... :D


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## Waywyn (May 7, 2008)

Hannes_F @ Wed May 07 said:


> If critique is offered in a constructive way, as a strictly unemotional recommendation for futural development, it will be accepted ... at least I have done it this way on several occasions.



Unfortuantely that wasn't the case back then ...



Hannes_F @ Wed May 07 said:


> If people think that notation output feeded into GPO and played back by laptop speakers sounds like heaven on earth I will not protest. Because it probably is so much better than what that they had before, so they are really happy.



That's also fine with me too, but the problem is, that there are comments such as, "wow, this really sounds like Williams, probably better" ... "awesome, porbably you should call Zimmer and ask for a job" ... "I wonder why Hollywood didn't call" ... etc. ... and sometimes some of those honey-around-the-mouth-critics where not just posted by users only 
I think if I would be a noob and would post my first 3 track pieces on the GPO forum and read stuff like this. It wouldn't take long to loose ground ...




Hannes_F @ Wed May 07 said:


> You think that VSL and SOL products are sounding so much better than Garritan products and the world ought to know? Probably right in this moment other composers that are recording with real orchestra as a standard are shaking their head about us sampleheads. It is all a question of perspective.



Sory but I am afraid not, because most of the guys respecting what you can do with samples and definitely know the difference between the real thing and artificial stuff. (At least I think I know, because I am one on both sides )

... or do you sit down when watching a youtube movie about a new robot experiment and go like: "Oh, I am a human, I can do much better than this piece of metal" 

But besides that, it is just my personal opinion, but yes ... only GM sounds worse than GPO ...


----------



## Stephen Baysted (May 7, 2008)

redleicester @ Wed May 07 said:


> But Gilbert and Sullivan rock..... :D



Agreed, especially Bridge over Troubled Water. :mrgreen:


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## gmet (May 7, 2008)

Rousseau & redleicester,

I am Northern beer drinker that has lived in Southern 'shandy land' for twenty years and am offended as I resemble all the above remarks. Can you bring your sisters with you when you meet up?

Justin


----------



## Stephen Baysted (May 7, 2008)

Justin M @ Wed May 07 said:


> Rousseau & redleicester,
> 
> I am Northern beer drinker that has lived in Southern 'shandy land' for twenty years and am offended as I resemble all the above remarks. Can you bring your sisters with you when you meet up?
> 
> Justin



Justin, let me get this straight, so does that mean you're a "southern softie leftie tree-hugging shirtlifter" who keeps ferrets, whippets, wears a flat cap and drinks warm beer? Oh and likes those horrid Musicals? 

:mrgreen:


----------



## redleicester (May 7, 2008)

Or that Rousseau's sister has webbed feet?


----------



## Hannes_F (May 7, 2008)

Waywyn @ Wed May 07 said:


> but the problem is, that there are comments such as, "wow, this really sounds like Williams, probably better" ... "awesome, porbably you should call Zimmer and ask for a job" ... "



After all, whose problem is this really?



> most of the guys respecting what you can do with samples and definitely know the difference between the real thing and artificial stuff.



OK, point taken. But actually I would expect a pro to be much better aware of the relativity of his work than beginners and amateurs.



> But besides that, it is just my personal opinion, but yes ... only GM sounds worse than GPO ...



And I say it depends. You would probably not expect this having been made to 80 % with GPO:

http://www.frischat.com/compose/HF_POF_excerpt.mp3

I am not saying GPO is the brightest lamp in the sample world, but maybe it is a little underrated and you can do things with it.

Another snippet of underscore:
http://www.frischat.com/compose/HF_POF_excerpt02.mp3

Yes, it would sound better if done with sample lib XY. So what, it expressed what was wanted and the artefacts were under the radar of the client. Today I would record it with a real viola anyways. 

The point I want to stress is that GPO was useable in that context, and much better than GM IMO. Again, I am very aware that GPO is not the top orchestra around which is the reason why I buyed most of the other orchestra libraries later. But somebody that says that GPO sounds sh***y across-the-board insults my work of that period and I guess I take that personal.


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## germancomponist (May 7, 2008)

Cool Hannes,

your examples reminds me to my first time with sampled orchestra. I first bought Peter Siedlaczek`s Advanced Orchestra,, then the Vitous, then GPO, Motu, Kirk Hunther`s Emerald and ended at EWQLSO Platinum Pro and some VSL.

I have to agree, GPO is not the best orchestra-library, but for what it is built it is not as bad as many people are saying.  

I will look at my older backup CD`S where I have some pretty nice arrangements, done with GPO.

*Friends: Please: Freedom between all the developers and forum members!* :roll:


----------



## Waywyn (May 7, 2008)

Hey Hannes,

please get me right. YOU are not saying that GPO is the brightest lamp, .. but the developer did it back then ...
If you are new to the sample world and get positive critics from the developer in persona on compositions which consists of 3 tracks, are 5 minutes long and repeat after every 20 seconds and no matter how terrible it sounds, ... it might work.

But hearing this statement as a pro, it is laughable to compare the quality of GPO to huge and expensive libraries. I know that money is not the most important but a lib which is 150 bucks compared to a 10000 bucks library?? Same quality?? Sorry  


Besides that, I really respect your work, Hannes, but don't feel personally insulted if someone doesn't like a lib you did demos for.

For example I did around 8 demos just for EWQL over the years. If I would feel personally insulted if someone wouldn't like the libs ... hmm ... shoot myself? 

By the way: If you read my previous post again, I said only GM sounds worse. I didn't say, GPO is as bad as GM  Of course I hear the difference, ... but however, sometimes I thought that someone simply took GM soundsfonts, modificated them a little bit and put it in the library :twisted:


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (May 7, 2008)

Germancomponist,

While your message about 'freedom' for all is great, you're posting it in the wrong forum. People are completely free here to discuss any library, to criticize without fear of being banned. Perhaps your message would make more sense in other, more restricted forums?

I wonder what would happen if you posted the exact same message in bold at NS?


----------



## Hannes_F (May 7, 2008)

germancomponist has probably just been falling for a translation error here. 

freedom = Freiheit

He meant 

Frieden = peace.


----------



## germancomponist (May 7, 2008)

Hannes_F @ Wed May 07 said:


> germancomponist has probably just been falling for a translation error here.
> 
> freedom = Freiheit
> 
> ...



Oops,

thank you so much, Hannes!

*Yes, I meant peace!*

Thanks again Hannes!


----------



## Hannes_F (May 7, 2008)

Waywyn @ Wed May 07 said:


> Hey Hannes,
> 
> please get me right. YOU are not saying that GPO is the brightest lamp, .. but the developer did it back then ...
> If you are new to the sample world and get positive critics from the developer in persona on compositions which consists of 3 tracks, are 5 minutes long and repeat after every 20 seconds and no matter how terrible it sounds, ... it might work.



Don't mistake me ... the audial quality and also often the writing level of many GPO demos in their listening room are subterrestrial. Nevertheless they receive praise ... which is meant more in a pedagogical mood obviously. The line to dishonesty is very thin here, I agree on that.



> Besides that, I really respect your work, Hannes, but don't feel personally insulted if someone doesn't like a lib you did demos for.



There is a difference between "I don't like library X" and "all what is done with library X sounds like sh*t". Because it is still a difference who uses it and how.

Do I say that GPO is sounding brilliantly? No. On a scale from 1 to 100 I would give it a 1 to 25, depending on who uses it.

But to be honest the expensive libraries like VSL, EWQLSO and SoniVox would only get 10 to 50 points from me. Maybe 55 in the hands of ThomasJ. For more we need live recordings anyway. From this POV GPO is not so bad regarding the price.

EDIT
To return to the original subject I would give the Garritan Strad 1 - 35 percent and the Gofriller 15 - 45 percent compared to what can be achieved with the real instruments.


----------



## tgfoo (May 7, 2008)

Ahh, we haven't had a good NSS bashing thread in a while. :twisted: 

My favorite thing they did when tried to make GPO seem better than it was by doign that comparison of having the real orchestra fade in and out with a GPO recording of the piece. I know there were quite a few people who weren't pleased with how misleading it was.



Waywyn @ Wed May 07 said:


> Hannes_F @ Wed May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > If people think that notation output feeded into GPO and played back by laptop speakers sounds like heaven on earth I will not protest. Because it probably is so much better than what that they had before, so they are really happy.
> ...



I definitely know what you mean on this one. Everything in the GPO demos section always got really positive feedback. I posted a song in there way back and every one had such nice things to say about it, but I know if I were to post that exact same thing here, you guys would tell me it sucked, why it sucked, and how to make it suck less (in a nice(ish) way of course). I personally prefer it that way.


----------



## Waywyn (May 7, 2008)

@Hannes:

Yeh, I hear you ... but to get me right, I didn't say everything what is done with GPO sounds like shit, but there are simply so many guys who post stuff which was done in like 2 hours or so. Most of them copy and paste a staccato line with 8th notes, put accents on 1 and 2+ and then let a horn melody play. I remember a demo of Dan whose demo was really rocking, but I am sure he tweaked the hell out of the lib and still you could hear some nasty synthesis and phasing. Besides that he really knew what he was doing. Of course you are right, the best lib only sounds as good as the user is talented.


So, as you said, the line is very thin and I would say, this line already has been broken sometimes over there.
I generally like to compare to other programs, software or situations.
So imagine I would get Vue Studio which is a landscape designer, open a scene, load a default atmosphere, import a cube or a cylinder and apply a metal texture to it, render it and post it in a 3d forum. All done in 10 minutes. What would happen? 
There wouldn't be not even one single "Cool" ... everyone there including the 10 year olds would laugh their asses off. So what a picture would someone get if the developer of Vue would post a "brilliant" and "awesome work" to that little rendered picture?
In my eyes the developer would get hard to believe in and almost slip off reality.

I know that someone who started right away, no matter what he/she is doing, should always receive commendation and praise, but as you said there is a thin line when it starts to sound dishonest and just for the moneys sake 


As we are speaking of real orchestras and stuff, I experienced that sometimes an orchestra is just an orchestra  Of course and no discussion about the live character, but in terms of sound and sonic, samples sometimes really made the production shine ... not because the orchestra was bad, ... but when I am adding samples to live recordings it seems that the productions gains a lot of power!


----------



## Przemek K. (May 7, 2008)

JonFairhurst @ Wed May 07 said:


> Welcome, Przemyslaw. Good to see you here...



Thanks for the welcome Jon. It's good to be here.


----------



## Peter Alexander (May 7, 2008)

My wife is British and translated the 25% of this thread that went over my head. In fact, she sat here laughing as I read her all your posts. I guess for the rest of us Yanks who aren't up on these matters, I've been encouraged to watch a British TV show if it's ever on here called LAST OF THE SUMMER WINE to fully "brief" me on some aspects of this conversation. 

The ferrets down the trowsers - well, over here, we have a hair style called a ferret and I am now fully illuminated as to the mistranslation of my thinking...

And now, back to Narnia.


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## redleicester (May 7, 2008)

Glad to keep you on your toes Peter. 

By the way, you've left the taps running you wazzuk. :D


----------



## Peter Alexander (May 7, 2008)

redleicester @ Wed May 07 said:


> Glad to keep you on your toes Peter.
> 
> By the way, you've left the taps running you wazzuk. :D



Caroline! Your countrymen are picking on me! >8o


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## redleicester (May 7, 2008)

CountryFOLK please, we're all landed gentry around here!


----------



## Ouch that hurts (May 7, 2008)

Moonchilde @ Tue May 06 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ May 5th 2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Gary doesn't need any help from me to look bad. Ask him who he used, and where the guy lives, and did Gary attend the session (in LA LOL) and what studio (LOL) he used. He's not really any competition either. The trombone player told me this to my face. Just like I told ya. Eventually, if you leave too may piles of [email protected]#t around, people start to notice.
> ...



+1

Nick's comments were ridiculous. For all one might hear any deficiencies in the Garritan products, any fool can hear that they are not just made by disparate musicians using "any mic they want to" in their disparate garages. If some anonymous trombone player did in fact relay this story to Nick, 'm sure he had the sense to realise it was utter bullshit. To come and repeat it hear as an untraceable, unverifiable and unaccountable way of scoring cheap shots against a commercial opponent is weak in the extreme.

It's also true, as noted here, that there are plenty of dodgy samples and errors left in various EWQLSO products. Sorry, but people in glass houses...

Finally, I'm no Gary groupie but I dispute the idea that he marketed GPO as being of equal quality to EWQLSO or VSL. I say that because I definitely remember posts in which he specifically said the opposite. He came right out and was upfront that GPO was NOT one of those programs, but considering it was like one twentieth the price of them, and still very good quality in many ways, the difference for many hobbyists, educational and semi-pro users was a no-brainer.

Gary clearly put some noses out of joint by ending the days when sample developers could automatically charge the price of a small house for any half-decent library. Deal with it - that's business.


----------



## Peter Alexander (May 7, 2008)

redleicester @ Wed May 07 said:


> CountryFOLK please, we're all landed gentry around here!



From my beloved to her COUNTRY FOLK!

http://www.talknatural.com/laughter/englishisms.html

*Sample*
From a brochure of a car rental firm in Tokyo:

"WHEN PASSENGER OF FOOT HEAVE IN SIGHT, TOOTLE THE HORN. TRUMPET HIM

MELODIOUSLY AT FIRST, BUT IF HE STILL OBSTACLES YOUR PASSAGE THEN TOOTLE HIM WITH VIGOR."


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 7, 2008)

Without taking sides against GPO: I for one want Nick P to feel comfortable posting here, whether or not the story he relayed is true, partly true, or false - just as Gary or any other developer should. As I recall, Nick disappeared for a good long time after being shrieked at last time, and I don't see why that's a good thing. He's a developer, but he's also an experienced musician with a lot to say (not to imply that developers are The Enemy!).

The truth is that almost every library has some dodgy samples, and that's part of the character. And I'd submit to the jury that you need to look at EW's Composer's Bundles before talking about the noses.

Apple is the biggest price dumper in our industry, by the way.


----------



## germancomponist (May 7, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 07 said:


> Apple is the biggest price dumper in our industry, by the way.



Oh yeah, that is so true  :mrgreen:


----------



## Nick Phoenix (May 7, 2008)

Ouch that hurts @ Wed May 07 said:


> +1
> 
> Nick's comments were ridiculous. For all one might hear any deficiencies in the Garritan products, any fool can hear that they are not just made by disparate musicians using "any mic they want to" in their disparate garages. If some anonymous trombone player did in fact relay this story to Nick, 'm sure he had the sense to realise it was utter [email protected]#t. To come and repeat it hear as an untraceable, unverifiable and unaccountable way of scoring cheap shots against a commercial opponent is weak in the extreme.
> 
> ...



Apparently GPO was also taken from multiple sources and not all recorded by Garritan. It's actually hard to notice that type of thing when the samples are dry. QL Brass was recorded in six different places. So no one's an idiot. It's not a cheap shot and honestly Gary is mostly not a competitor. This is what the guy told me, first hand and he had nothing to gain by it, and has no knowledge of these forums or music software in general. SO I'd bet the farm, it's pretty much true. Why are you surprised???? Gary's stuff is strong on the software side and weak on sound. Everyone knows this. I had to record one of the instruments in Gypsy in Arizona, because I couldn't find the artist in LA. I couldn't attend the session, so I booked a studio which had a good reputation, talked to the engineer for an hour or 2. Gave the artist EXPLICIT written down instructions and it came out well. I added a touch of convolution from EW studio A and nobody knows. You see I have faults but I'm honest. GPO was billed as a sketch tool, then it was a Hollywood orchestra, then it was a sketch tool, then it was a Hollywood orchestra, then it was a sketch tool, then it was a Hollywood orchestra, then it was a sketch tool. EWQLSO has many faults. It was recorded in a very short period of time because that's all you can get at Benharoya. It is in surround so editing is a nightmare without surround tools. However, it's a bargain however you look at it.


----------



## Hannes_F (May 7, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 07 said:


> Without taking sides against GPO: I for one want Nick P to feel comfortable posting here, whether or not the story he relayed is true, partly true, or false - just as Gary or any other developer should. As I recall, Nick disappeared for a good long time after being shrieked at last time, and I don't see why that's a good thing. He's a developer, but he's also an experienced musician with a lot to say.



Yes Nick Phoenix is a hell of a musician and music producer in my book. All my respect, really.

EDIT Some caution would be in place though with speculations on competing products. I would rather bite my tongue off than add something that is not 120 % backed up by proof when I am in the market myself. /EDIT

Waywyn, real players are from 1 to 100 in my scale. 100 would be the LSO at a good day. But being recorded live, even from professionals, is not a warranty for anything per se, it can be even worse than samples.


----------



## Bruce Richardson (May 7, 2008)

Hannes_F @ Wed May 07 said:


> Things to avoid: Giving the moderators a reason for banning by
> - picking up double identities
> - recruiting for other forums



I think the thing to keep in mind is that while this may seem a reasonable observation at first blush, it was not the situation behind most bans of current VI-Control members. I don't think it is productive to engage in an all out revelation of specifics, but in my case and others it is fair to say that the "ban" was decided before the selection of a rationale. To put it another way, most bans were for seemingly inoccuous "rule violations," things that seemed trivial compared to the banned member's professional status or contribution. The pattern emerged that those banned were almost always viewed by the owners as intellectual troublemakers, whose ideas were much more the "problem" than any particular (and often inconsequential) rule violation.

Indeed the entire bloating of the NS forum rules, into a document whose size is only matched by its weirdness and unnecessary minutia, seemed to be nothing more than a method for creating various traps and snares with which to justify banning intellectually freewheeling members.

I can't tell you how many times I was given "ban warnings" for defending correct and unassailable points of information against attack by people whose points of attack were complete and utter bunk. But when I would vigorously defend a truthful point against that kind of cheap gainsaying, I would soon receive a warning against "too much bantering." The end result is that points of view that were not factually legitimate were allowed to be perceived by the less experienced and younger group members as valid. Not only does this do a disservice to the truth itself, but to the strength and core of any community. All ideas do not have equal merit, nor do all points of view hold equal truth.

Such an atmosphere breeds contempt among honest men. Eventually, they rise up and demand redress. And at NorthernSounds, those demands were always countered with "Meet my little friend."

Little indeed.

I wish I could say that it no longer affects me. Unfortunately, I am not that good at stuffing down my feelings. I felt taken advantage of. I felt abused. And ultimately, I felt sad that what was once arguably the most stimulating think-tank in this industry became nothing more than a collection of fish in a barrel, from which profit and ultimately soul were sucked in equal measure.


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## Bruce Richardson (May 7, 2008)

And in the manner of public confession, events at NorthernSounds clouded my judgment of people I should have extended the benefit of the doubt.

One of them was Nick Phoenix. I had the opportunity to apologize to him in person at NAMM this year, when we had the opportunity to share a late snack and nightcap. I came away from that meeting realizing that Nick is first a very, VERY good musician. We had a great conversation about many things. And second, he is dedicated to pursuing instrument building in much the same way that I see it--that first and foremost, he is making the instruments he wants to use as a musician, and betting on the hunch that others will be served in the process.

There IS a distinction between this level and degree of engagement, versus other business models. And I'm not speaking of any particular producer in a negative sense, just that there are people in this industry that I particularly admire--even if my own concepts don't agree. Sometimes agreement is better in a broader sense. More room for surprises!!

I am very glad to have had the opportunity to sit with Nick outside of an arguably poisoned environment that I realize in hindsight had clouded my viewpoint, and that fortunately, there is no such thing as too late when it comes to building relationships and honoring good work.


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## Ouch that hurts (May 7, 2008)

So just out of interest Bruce:

How do you square that with the strong opinion you always voiced there about the importance of open formats, and the idea that developers who tied their samples into custom, copy-protected players were stifling healthy development?


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## Cinesamples (May 7, 2008)

(edit: oh crap seeing my avatar makes me sad..... :( ..... damn refs)

PS I don't understand 90 percent of the jokes in this thread either


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## Bruce Richardson (May 7, 2008)

Ouch that hurts @ Wed May 07 said:


> So just out of interest Bruce:
> 
> How do you square that with the strong opinion you always voiced there about the importance of open formats, and the idea that developers who tied their samples into custom, copy-protected players were stifling healthy development?



I still don't like it. I regret that the industry moved that direction. I tried my best to fight it. You saw me make my most valiant effort...and I was mostly fought tooth-and-nail by people who now probably understand the market reality I correctly predicted. Sampler sales are dismal. One wonders if the companies that make them will even survive. Then what?

On the supply side, the situation has arrived at a no-win. Sample libraries are now so devalued on the commercial market that there is literally no retailer willing to take them. So, it's either "virtual instrument" or no market, if your goal as a producer is to ultimately create a self-sustaining company. Yes, you could probably open up shop on the internet, but the potential for growing a company with that model has proven elusive for everyone I know who has tried. Self-sustaining is an important concept in business plans!!!

I'll fight for an idea to the limit, but I stop short at flailing against a brick wall...at least as best I can.

When I weighed my options, the best I could do with my own initial offering was make it a GVi. That way, I was still supporting the evolution of an open-sampler format. And I was still able to create a fully editable and portable instrument by breaking things down into such tiny component parts that an end user can reconfigure the library down to the individual sample's behavior. In that way, too, if determined enough, the end user could circumvent the protection and go at waveforms, albiet not by a button push. But all the design in the instrument can be "undesigned" and broken into the smallest component.

I'm not happy about the way the market ultimately progressed. I think we're poorer for it. But it is what it is, and I can either choose to do my best in the given situation or punt. I'm not a punter.

I hope that answers the question.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 7, 2008)

Ouch That Hurts, here's another question: is it necessary to troll? So far you've managed to provoke several reasonable answers, but I have a strong suspicion that you're planning to continue until someone gets pissed off.


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## Ouch that hurts (May 7, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Wed May 07 said:


> Ouch that hurts @ Wed May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope that answers the question.



Yes, very reasonably. Good luck with the venture.


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## Ouch that hurts (May 7, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 07 said:


> Ouch That Hurts, here's another question: is it necessary to troll? So far you've managed to provoke several reasonable answers, but I have a strong suspicion that you're planning to continue until someone gets pissed off.



Sorry I can see now how the way I put the question to Bruce might have seemed aggressive. I really didn't intend it that way at all and fortunately he doesn't appear to have taken it that way. I was just interested where he was at with that line of thinking, as one who had broadly agreed with him about the subject over many discusssion on NS.

I stand by my comments to Nick: I think developers spreading unsubstantiated rumours about fellow developers is a cheap shot, and anyone with that degree of business experience ought to be able to see when a comment can't realistically be made without stinking of a hidden agenda. I think it's just the price of being a commerical interest that's also part of a "community" like this that you keep the fighting with other commercial interests out of it. Of course it's not my site so I don't make the rules, but I think if that sort of thing became acceptable you could very quickly have a quagmire or infighting on your hands - which is after all largely what happened to NS.

Anyway, you're right that Nick's reply was very reasonable, and I apologise if my tone was out of order. I don't post here often but I do read a lot, and I've been involved in this area for years on NS. I'm certainly no troll.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 7, 2008)

Ouch that hurts @ Wed May 07 said:


> I stand by my comments to Nick: I think developers spreading unsubstantiated rumours about fellow developers is a cheap shot, and anyone with that degree of business experience ought to be able to see when a comment can't realistically be made without stinking of a hidden agenda. I think it's just the price of being a commerical interest that's also part of a "community" like this that you keep the fighting with other commercial interests out of it. Of course it's not my site so I don't make the rules, but I think if that sort of thing became acceptable you could very quickly have a quagmire or infighting on your hands - which is after all largely what happened to NS.
> 
> Anyway, you're right that Nick's reply was very reasonable, and I apologise if my tone was out of order. I don't post here often but I do read a lot, and I've been involved in this area for years on NS. I'm certainly no troll.



See if I said that about Vienna or Sonic Implants it would be different, but this is Garritan. By his own words, he is making products for the student, beginner, consumer. Now that's not always true. But it's a good broad statement. You should appreciate that I usually do what is probably worst for my business. Do you have any idea how may times some one has told me that I am a developer and I'm not allowed to say things like that on the forums?? Probably 50. LOL. Please don't apologize. Just look at me like every other member.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 7, 2008)

Bruce, It was great hanging out at NAMM. You are passionate about your ideas and true to yourself. That's what counts.


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## germancomponist (May 7, 2008)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed May 07 said:


> Apparently GPO was also taken from multiple sources and not all recorded by Garritan. It's actually hard to notice that type of thing when the samples are dry. QL Brass was recorded in six different places. So no one's an idiot. It's not a cheap shot and honestly Gary is mostly not a competitor. This is what the guy told me, first hand and he had nothing to gain by it, and has no knowledge of these forums or music software in general. SO I'd bet the farm, it's pretty much true. Why are you surprised???? Gary's stuff is strong on the software side and weak on sound. Everyone knows this. I had to record one of the instruments in Gypsy in Arizona, because I couldn't find the artist in LA. I couldn't attend the session, so I booked a studio which had a good reputation, talked to the engineer for an hour or 2. Gave the artist EXPLICIT written down instructions and it came out well. I added a touch of convolution from EW studio A and nobody knows. You see I have faults but I'm honest. GPO was billed as a sketch tool, then it was a Hollywood orchestra, then it was a sketch tool, then it was a Hollywood orchestra, then it was a sketch tool, then it was a Hollywood orchestra, then it was a sketch tool. EWQLSO has many faults. It was recorded in a very short period of time because that's all you can get at Benharoya. It is in surround so editing is a nightmare without surround tools. However, it's a bargain however you look at it.



Nick, 

I was in January 2007 NS registered. I have found this forum on Google, and I was very impressed. Here I have found many friends. 

I myself have been working for about 20 years in the music industry, as did A & R worked in a company and now have my own company. I produce radio music, radio commercials, covers music and this and that. 

In my work as an A & R I learned to respect the compositions and not on the sound quality of the demos. 

When I go to the Forum NS visit, I always go first in the listeningroom. 
Oh yes, there are many amateur and amateur musicians. All the more I am sometimes amazed at what great compositions as some amateur musicians to deliver! 

These people do not have the money to such a large librariy to buy as the EWQLSO. These people work during the day somewhere out there and did so after their small home studio. Many of them to compose music notation programs and then use the inexpensive GPO library. 

Of course you can from this work, does not expect professional results, but the expected but nobody! 

Nick, your library to compare with GPO as a comparison between apples and pears. 

I have learned to love your library, but most of the members in NS don`t have the money to buy an EWQLSO. 

Nick, you produce for the professionals, just a completely different target audience! 

Hey, I appreciate you very much and I would be happy if you stand for peace between you and all other developers!


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## Bruce Richardson (May 7, 2008)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed May 07 said:


> Bruce, It was great hanging out at NAMM. You are passionate about your ideas and true to yourself. That's what counts.



Listen, you're a developer. You are not allowed to say shit like that on the forums.

o-[][]-o


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## rgames (May 7, 2008)

Ouch that hurts @ Wed May 07 said:


> Nick's comments were ridiculous. For all one might hear any deficiencies in the Garritan products, any fool can hear that they are not just made by disparate musicians using "any mic they want to" in their disparate garages.



I'm not certain of the recording technology but right after I bought GPO (when I was new to orchestral sample libraries) I complained that many of the instruments sounded like amateur musicians. I recall string samples that floated way out of tune, tuba samples that had terrible attacks, and other problems.

So I don't think it's a stretch to believe Nick's informant.

I think GPO was a good idea - I liked the playability much better than anything else that was available (I didn't know how to tweak samplers at the time). But it completely lacked polish and professionalism. Just take a look at his packaging and marketing - also extremely amateur. That doesn't have to be an indication of a bad product, but let's face it, most quality products also have good marketing, packaging, etc.

rgames


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## artsoundz (May 7, 2008)

" so that they revered him as some type of demi-god. It's bad for everybody when those types of personalities are allowed to prey on unwitting victims, bad in a Jim Jones sort of sense"


That seems a bit overboard unless I missed the version that came with a package of kool aid.


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## Stephen Baysted (May 8, 2008)

Justin M @ Thu May 08 said:


> Rousseau @ 7th May 2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Justin M @ Wed May 07 said:
> ...



I like Pigeons - mainly with green peppercorn sauce - though I'd not stick em in't shed at t' bottom of t' garden. :mrgreen:


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## StrangeCat (May 8, 2008)

ahh a trip down memory lane^_- I remember very well when it started. It was DPDan showing his amazing audio engineering skills with a mockup of a Schuman Piano Concerto. First it was a little section of the original recording then it was the GPO version. Then....all hell broke lose! 
it was Synergy543 that was able to tell what was GPO and what wasn't in it these mockups, no ones else could get it even though one was GPO and one was the actual recording. I remember a lot of people getting pretty emotional about that post and lot of bans happening because of it.

All in all I look forward to GOS2! I mean is it going to be EW new string lib or is it going to be GOS2. Probably both will be real popular.


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## Jaap (May 8, 2008)

I finally had some time to read the whole thread and actually I think it is a very good thread. It gave me some really clear information on what happened at the NS site back then. I have missed that and allthough I have visited the site quite often I really don't really like the atmosphere compared to the VI forum. I joined the VI forum last year without knowing this history, but I can say that this is a good home and stay for a relative beginner in the magical world of samples.

Allthough there has been some harsh critique I think it is expressed in a good and civil way. Even if some examples are questionable for some, I admire the patient and relative relaxing atmosphere in the manner it is discussed.

It is good to see that the devs show up and spread their opinion and passion for the products they make and that falls somethimes together with "bashing" the other. However after reading this thread completely from beginning till the end it doesn't feel like bashing or arrogance when you read it completely (but that is just my opinion and coming from a country that is quite known for almost being too honest and being on the edge of being rude, I might be biased haha).

Anyway, the point of my posting? Would love to join the dinner in England  oh and I am recording with a friend a private mandoline library in my garage....(I feel ashamed)

P.s. needed to change my t-shirt half way this thread due to spilling coffee because of the Greek - Italian joke..thanks for that great laugh!


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## Hannes_F (May 8, 2008)

StrangeCat @ Thu May 08 said:


> ahh a trip down memory lane^_- I remember very well when it started. It was DPDan showing his amazing audio engineering skills with a mockup of a Schuman Piano Concerto. First it was a little section of the original recording then it was the GPO version. Then....all hell broke lose!
> it was Synergy543 that was able to tell what was GPO and what wasn't in it these mockups, no ones else could get it even though one was GPO and one was the actual recording. I remember a lot of people getting pretty emotional about that post and lot of bans happening because of it.



Interesting. DPDAN can be a blast, not always but most times.

Side note: He normally uses GOS exclusively for strings, not GPO. No idea whether this was the case with that special rendering but this is his usual method.


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## redleicester (May 8, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Thu May 08 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Wed May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Bruce, It was great hanging out at NAMM. You are passionate about your ideas and true to yourself. That's what counts.
> ...



Pack it in you two - this thread has nothing to do with samples, developers or musicians, it's purely to take the piss out of each other surely? :mrgreen:


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## navidson (May 8, 2008)

It's great that even two years after Sharmygate everyone's still bitter about NS to the tune of 200 posts. Doesn't the light blue colour scheme here sooth and relax? It does for me!

Mmm, tranquil.


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## Hannesdm (May 8, 2008)

It's nice to finally know the background of what happened back then!

All over the forum there were those little comments and quotes on NS and bannings, and I kept wondering why everyone was so sceptical and mad about NS.

Maybe it's a good thing that there is a thread were everyone can spill their hearts out. It can be a relieve at times.:wink: 

That said, I've learned -still do- alot from NS forums (Just as I learn alot from VI)! And GPO was my ticket into the world of sample libraries! And there are a lot of people like me. It's true that the quality isn't comparable with VSL, Sonivox, EWQL,.. but if you tweak it enough, you can get some acceptable results! And untill I've covered all the instruments with new and better libraries, I will still be using GPO. (I know have SAM Brass & percussion, SISS,... But my WW are still GPO)

Hannes


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## Chaim (May 8, 2008)

nikolas @ Thu May 08 said:


> Why can't this awful thread gets older and dissappear from page 1? What is so interesting in bashing other forums, other products, other people?
> 
> Peace?



It's interesting because you get to hear some inside stories from Nick P. :D 

So, Mr P., how's your new Studio Strings coming along? It looks like Gary is holding off with GOS2 for some reason :mrgreen: , na, it's not gonna help because QL Studio Strings is coming out in about 7 years from now o/~ o/~


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## KingIdiot (May 8, 2008)

whats NS?....

GPO?....

Sampling?

What the hell are you guys talking about?

0oD


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## Hardy Heern (May 8, 2008)

KingIdiot @ Thu May 08 said:


> whts NS....
> 
> GPO?....
> 
> ...



Hey King.....are *you *trolling?

Only joking? :twisted: 

I think that folk are too trigger happy with accusations of trolling just because people get a bit passionate.
Premature accusations of trolling are indeed trolling themselves.....IMVHO. (and I've got a lot to be humble about....as they say...)

I think Ouch's posts are fine.....so there! 

Frank
'The Prince of Even Handedness'


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## Rob (May 8, 2008)

KingIdiot @ 8th May 2008 said:


> whats NS?....
> 
> GPO?....
> 
> ...



I want you to know I admired the work you did on those strings samples, still using your patches... =o


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## StrangeCat (May 8, 2008)

Interesting. DPDAN can be a blast, not always but most times.

Side note: He normally uses GOS exclusively for strings, not GPO. No idea whether this was the case with that special rendering but this is his usual method.[/quote]

He is a amazing Audio engineer! I also liked that song he did with Gofriller and Strad that was good.

Didn't know about GOS. He also did the mockup of that kids Magic whatever orchestra piece that won the GPO orchestra contest. Played GPO in the background while you watch a real orchestra play the music(weird) but once again amazing engineering.


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## Hardy Heern (May 8, 2008)

And another thing.....!!!!

Gary Garritan's got faults, but here's the thing.....so do all of us?

I'm one of the hobbyists who have been interested in, and have derived a great deal of pleasure from, synthesizers and sampled music. I got interested via orchestral organs, which I was mesmerised with at the time, and this interest eventually led to sequencing, first on an Amstrad CPC464 quickly followed by the Atari STFM with Pro24 and then Cubit/ Cubase. I learned my MIDI skills the hard way and ‘involvement peaked’ with a Roland Sound Canvas with Kawai KI, FBO1, Alesis Microverb and Tascam x26H 4track locked to the sequence…..I then added Soundfonts which were quite a revelation to me, and still have the very decent Sonido Media Orchestral soundfonts.

What I did learn was that modest sounds could be made to sound very decent, indeed, with time spent on MIDI programming. There’s a lot of nonsense talked about the machine gun effect….for example. I learned, very early on, that the reason drums sounded like a machine gun..(the drum rolls on early orchestral organs were hellish….didn’t the programmers think?) was simply a matter of computerised timing….basically more important than having a load of different ‘round robin’ samples. Having said that, obviously circulating a bunch of slightly different samples is even better. All you have to do is think about what happens in real life in terms of timing, pitch and volume etc. variations. 

I'm afraid that it's _still _a fact of life that a well programmed, modest sample set still sounds better than the most expensive set, played out of the box. piano style, with no programming.

What I really lusted after, though, was the brilliant breakthrough Nemesys GigaSampler but it was just more money than I could justify but it had just become more affordable. Around the same time I chanced upon Northern Sounds which was very inspiring and interesting with the most knowledgeable Gigasampler folk like Bruce Richardson, KingIdiot etc etc. I spent many enjoyable hours rubbing shoulders with those who knew GigaStudio inside out and I learned a great deal and ended up with over 2000 posts……ridiculous really, if you add it up (but I had taught myself to touch-type….so that helped! ) 

All the time, however, I was waiting for the new, forthcoming, and much delayed version of GigaStudio3. I had decided that with my advancing years it was streaming hardisk samples now or never! 

During this time, though, GPO burst upon the scene…..the answer to my prayers….(don’t start me on religion…..NS seems to be a very Christian site and I’m a free thinker….Oh yes I am!!  ). So, I ended up with Kontakt which did, already, have a great reputation…..and it was an ‘open’ sampler, like GigaStudio.

But back to GPO; I really don’t care what anyone says; you only have to listen to the demos which were produced by very good programmers like DPDan to hear the amazing results which could be achieved with diligent programming. Gary spotted a market gap and filled it with a real value for money product. EWQL Silver followed very closely, but it was too late as I was one of the very first purchasers of GPO (I have since bought Gold and then XP….wish I’d waited even longer!  . 

I must admit that I got carried away by the results vs cost of GPO. It really WAS a SENSATIONAL product when it was launched. Gary even offered to set up GPO in my own home, as he was visiting England at the time, but I had to decline due to being up to my neck with renovating my home…..gulp….I still am…..! Sadly our relationship seems to have deteriorated, somewhat, since then.

So, I won’t hear a bad word about GPO. It was a breakthrough product at the time and is still decent value……more value than the Strad and Grofriller for example….IMHO. Even though Gary updated his Update in response to this thread, I suspect, there has obviously been something happening to make him drop them….it’s in the small print…..

I just can’t wait to use GPO………… 

Frank

‘The Prince of Evenhandedness’


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2008)

"I think Ouch's posts are fine.....so there! "

NO YOU DON'T!


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## Bruce Richardson (May 8, 2008)

nikolas @ Thu May 08 said:


> artsoundz @ Thu May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > " so that they revered him as some type of demi-god. It's bad for everybody when those types of personalities are allowed to prey on unwitting victims, bad in a Jim Jones sort of sense"
> ...



That's the great thing about this forum, Nicolas, we can have this conversation here.

If you don't want to participate in it, you get the opportunity to tune out.

You seem to think that the people who are sharing their stories are just grumblers, or bashers. You didn't have the experience. We did. It was real. People were thrown out of NorthernSounds, en masse, in order to achieve a kind of "intellectual clensing."

When you're on the receiving end of that, it's not pretty.


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## Bruce Richardson (May 8, 2008)

Przemek K. @ Wed May 07 said:


> Bruce Richardson @ Wed May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > ...When I weighed my options, the best I could do with my own initial offering was make it a GVi. That way, I was still supporting the evolution of an open-sampler format. And I was still able to create a fully editable and portable instrument by breaking things down into such tiny component parts that an end user can reconfigure the library down to the individual sample's behavior. In that way, too, if determined enough, the end user could circumvent the protection and go at waveforms, albiet not by a button push. But all the design in the instrument can be "undesigned" and broken into the smallest component...
> ...



re: Editing...not quite. You can edit it in the QuickEdit in Giga or GVi. But the different drums are broken down into such small component parts that you can load a different component on every channel and get control over every aspect.

I went into literally as much detail as I could, in order to ensure that, for instance, you could pitch the heads of the drums without pitching the rims, etc. The GSI patches are various states of "complete" looks at the package, but the "raw instruments" menu breaks things down to probably a too-ridiculous degree.

re: Vendors...announcement coming 8)


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## mducharme (May 8, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Thu May 08 said:


> That's the great thing about this forum, Nicolas, we can have this conversation here.
> 
> If you don't want to participate in it, you get the opportunity to tune out.



I think my brain was auto-tuning out of this thread.. I've been reading it for days and a few minutes ago when I read the title I read it as "Garritan has DISCOUNTED the Strad"..

Though perhaps it's a sign I need to get glasses, first time I saw that other current thread title I thought it said "The Trumpet reviewed by Ru Paul" ~o)


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## Bruce Richardson (May 8, 2008)

I suspect Ru Paul has reviewed many the trumpet.


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## Hans Adamson (May 8, 2008)

StrangeCat @ Sun May 04 said:


> Sales pitch? I don't and won't ever get involved with the politics of Developers or discussions on forums.
> My Bad. (o)


Strangecat,
Didn't mean to beat up on you. I always read your posts with interest, so don't feel inhibited. 

All the best,


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## StrangeCat (May 9, 2008)

no prob man! I love your pianos and still think there the most emotional out there!
I try to be careful what I post though^_-
o-[][]-o


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## StrangeCat (May 9, 2008)

""So, I won’t hear a bad word about GPO. It was a breakthrough product at the time and is still decent value……more value than the Strad and Grofriller for example….IMHO. Even though Gary updated his Update in response to this thread, I suspect, there has obviously been something happening to make him drop them….it’s in the small print…..

I just can’t wait to use GPO………… Smile

Frank

‘The Prince of Evenhandedness’"

dang for some reason I can't get quote to work.
Hey yea GPO is Damn Good.
You really have to know some midi tricks to get the most out of it and patience.
For instance even creating a great string section by using players, sus strings, and solo strings, you have to go back and slightly move a few players here and there so not everyone is so damn perfectly aligned, plus modwheel, and footpedal, them make sure you aren't using up a lot of Polyphony too. Then there is the horns and using the overlays and mixing those together. 

you could look at that and other ensembles as being the most flexible as you can make it sound like anything you want. Let's face it the norm has been to have real solo string instrument recorded over samples and sometimes mixing in some other strings from a synth even like Roland and Korg patches. It's all timbre.

I remember when DPDAN unleashed his mock-up of The New World Symphony. he said that when he did the strings after he was done he then eq'd them and add another solo violin patch on top. and yea that was GPO that he used for that mock-up.

I actually thought that GPO's strong point was the winds. The player patches for strings sort of remind me of VR's strings . Both can be mixed into other libs to make strings come live and all that.

To me GPO really shines when real instruments are recorded with it. By it's self it's ok.


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## KingIdiot (May 9, 2008)

I havent read ONE reply since I've posted. I just wanted to let you know that I've been reading TVguide dot com to keep up with the latest OGFG gossip girl drama to keep my drama quota up.... but it has nothing on the memories of sampling 101 year 2002



o-[][]-o 

someone buy gary and his family some wine, an buy nick some absinthe

and buy me a glass of water!

oh and bruce a hair stylist!!!


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## redleicester (May 9, 2008)

Did somebody say something?

Didn't think so. Returning to somnabulism.

:D


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## JohnG (May 9, 2008)

I think it's a mistake to treat either film composing (what I do) or developing tools for music as a Holy Cause subject to the jurisdiction of Church Police. That's Bruce's job and he's damn good at it.

So I hereby offer thanks to Gary Garriton for producing very affordable libraries, to Nick and Doug for producing fabulous sounding libraries, and to VSL for producing their meticulous and amazing opus...
and Eric Persing, and the True Strike guys and Steinberg and MOTU and Mackie and Sure, Lavry, Crown, Tascam, t.c. electronic, Bruce R., Mogami, Apple, Neumann and all the rest -- 

In short, I am grateful to all of them and their competitors for what they do. I don't want to make hardware or software or record samples and I'm glad someone else is doing it; I use products every day that are astonishing to me in their power and richness.

And I like a few jokes now and then and don't consider them immoral even if they are about a competitor. I make jokes about some composers; developers make jokes about developers. I work as hard as humanly possible to learn to make the best music I can and I feel somewhat entitled to make jokes if I think someone's been lazy or derivative or feeble or whatever, compositionally.

Similarly, I assume developers work hard on their libraries and products, so, in a way, I think they are more entitled than anyone else to comment and make jokes about their competitors. Taste is always nice, but that is mostly a matter of opinion. 

So I can't say I like name-calling; I don't and I hope to see less of it. But equally, I am not shocked or aghast if there is some rivalry -- of course there is. Ever read any of Bernard Herrmann's rants? Or Jerry Goldsmith's not very veiled attack at another very famous composer?

So maybe I am being obvious again, so I will close. I am very grateful to all these guys for the tools they've created.


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## rgames (May 9, 2008)

nikolas @ Thu May 08 said:


> artsoundz @ Thu May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > " so that they revered him as some type of demi-god. It's bad for everybody when those types of personalities are allowed to prey on unwitting victims, bad in a Jim Jones sort of sense"
> ...



There's no hard feelings - nobody at NS has ever done anything to me. So I'm not at war with anybody.

The interest in discussing other forums comes from a concern for those who attend them. I was never a regular at NS (nor am I a regular anywhere, actually) but the dynamics on that forum were scary.

It's just an opinion. Feel free to have another - I won't attack you for yours or say I think it's awful. That's a bit too much like NS.

rgames


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## Przemek K. (May 9, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Thu May 08 said:


> re: Editing...not quite. You can edit it in the QuickEdit in Giga or GVi. But the different drums are broken down into such small component parts that you can load a different component on every channel and get control over every aspect.
> 
> I went into literally as much detail as I could, in order to ensure that, for instance, you could pitch the heads of the drums without pitching the rims, etc. The GSI patches are various states of "complete" looks at the package, but the "raw instruments" menu breaks things down to probably a too-ridiculous degree.
> 
> re: Vendors...announcement coming 8)




Thats good hear. Now I'll wait for the announcement


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## KingIdiot (May 10, 2008)

redleicester @ Fri May 09 said:


> Did somebody say something?
> 
> Didn't think so. Returning to somnabulism.
> 
> :D




OK, I'll one up you, I dont even remember posting that last post. I think I was possessed.

by the spirit of Houstan Hayes...or was it Ernstein? Who was the one guy who posted the wave files comparison of crecendos back in he day with the GOS days

that was fun times. Rally up the posse!!

I'm fucking glad I've pissed off just about everyone, now when I say something good about a lib someone will think I'm trolling via sarcasm 

BTW I've moved away from using all orchestral libs everyone has released recently and am now using an old GM EMU pack, and some sound font instruments I built from the UoIowa recordings that were around ages ago. They sound SO FUCKING HOLLYWOOD!! Especially when I use my old alesis quadraverb effects unit.... You are all jealous, I know!

I cant wait till we revisit the Diva thread


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