# Let's discuss.. the Music of Bartok



## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2020)

I've actually been lucky enough to see this performed live by the TSO. And my favourite recording is the Dutoit MSO on Decca. What a tremendous, uncompromising, vicious work, inspired by Le Sacre. Of course in true Bartok form, it features some amazing orchestral effects and his unique compositional/harmonic tendencies. Goldsmith was clearly inspired by Bartok for much of his Total Recall score (the concerto for orchestra and this work). For me, it's like the first "slasher" score- the main character simply won't die after being hung, stabbed, electrocuted... The macabre was a recurring motif in Bartok's work (Bluebeard's Castle being another noted example).


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## JohnG (Oct 5, 2020)

by far my favourite Bartok (although I love the quartets and the duets, so..)

Love it -- bought the score, etc.


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## Nate Johnson (Oct 5, 2020)

listening for the first time now....wowzers this whole thing is great! Thanks for bringing it up!


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## BlackDorito (Oct 5, 2020)

I love Miraculous Mandarin and Bluebeard. First got exposed to Bartok as a kid when my piano teacher assigned the Mikrokosmos and I formed the childhood impression that he was that 'Eastern European folk music' guy with weird time signatures and melodic modes. As I got older I came to realize that Bartok, Stravinsky and many others had to have an amazing mind's-ear to create their expressive orchestrations (particularly for Stravinsky, the early period). They didn't get to sit down at the keyboard and conjure up strings, brass, WW, etc. in virtual instruments and then say "yes .. that's the sound I want."


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## synergy543 (Oct 5, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> As I got older I came to realize that Bartok, Stravinsky and many others had to have an amazing mind's-ear to create their expressive orchestrations (particularly for Stravinsky, the early period). They didn't get to sit down at the keyboard and conjure up strings, brass, WW, etc. in virtual instruments and then say "yes .. that's the sound I want."


Yes, that's a very interesting point. Though, I'm not sure they would have benefited from a notation program (your choice) and DAW (your choice) with all of the associated distractions that come with these modern amenities (computers, internet, YT, Netflix, games). With only a pencil and paper and scores to copy and study, it leaves quite a bit to the imagination. And imagine how that might grow. I've experienced this a few times when the power goes out (very strange feeling being disconnected - though usually leaves me feeling as if I have ADD rather than being inspired).


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

Frigin' Masterpiece.

End of discussion


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## kgdrum (Oct 5, 2020)

I love everything Bartok! His string quartets and Concerto for Orchestra are two of my favorites ❤️
Growing up as a drummer primarily with a background in Rock,Jazz R&B etc......I‘m sure I drove my family crazy playing & practicing as much as I did.
From about the age of 18 to 20 one form of torture I inflicted on my family with regularity was to play (drum set) and improvise using the glorious music of Bela Bartok as my springboard.
What a composer he was, as a drummer there’s something about his music that has an unusually DEEP GROOVE and color that I just connect with. Somehow he kind of reminds me of Miles,there’s weight & conviction with every note and phrase and the space he leaves just makes the music so impactful.
We all have our musical hero's,for me Bartok is part of my musical Mt. Rushmore. 👍


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2020)

Great responses! Thanks and keep 'em coming. 
Incidentally, I was first exposed to Bartok via The Shining and as a 12 year old in 1980, wondered who in the world would compose such creepy ass music.


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## kgdrum (Oct 5, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> Great responses! Thanks and keep 'em coming.
> Incidentally, I was first exposed to Bartok via The Shining and as a 12 year old in 1980, wondered who in the world would compose such creepy ass music.




I freaked out the 1st time I saw the Shining it’s one more reason it’s one of my favorite all time films!

“Here’s Johnny! 😱


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2020)

kgdrum said:


> I freaked out the 1st time I saw the Shining it’s one more reason it’s one of my favorite all time films!
> 
> “Here’s Johnny! 😱


It never really scared me (the book did actually) but I loved the atmosphere that Kubrick achieved. Wendy Carlos' ominous version of the Dies Irae at the opening credits scene is still one of the scariest tracks I've heard (next to Ligeti's Requiem).


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## synergy543 (Oct 5, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> It never really scared me (the book did actually) but I loved the atmosphere that Kubrick achieved.


Well, if the book didn't scare you, then the synopsis of Bluebeard's Castle should! Its quite a twisted tale even by today's horror movie standards. I'm surprised nobody made a movie of it, but then, we already have the opera (maybe its good its in a foreign language?).








Bluebeard's Castle - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## kgdrum (Oct 5, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> It never really scared me (the book did actually) but I loved the atmosphere that Kubrick achieved. Wendy Carlos' ominous version of the Dies Irae at the opening credits scene is still one of the scariest tracks I've heard (next to Ligeti's Requiem).




Oh it never scared me at all,I have always found it entertaining,the emoji was for Shelly Duval’s reaction for “Here’s Johnny!” lol 😱


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## CT (Oct 6, 2020)

I like the sheer weirdness of Bluebeard, but this one always grabs me the most with its kind of psychedelic-Rheingold opening.


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## Rob (Oct 6, 2020)

Don't know why, but I've always had a hard time connecting with Bartok's language... it's not dissonance per se, since I have no problem with Stravinsky, Schoenberg and others, but his peculiar taste for harmony. I have to admit this is an opinion I formed in my youth and I could possibly change my view now, if I had the time and will to sit and listen with some attention. I remember I listened to part of the Concerto for Orchestra some time ago and kind of liked it..


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## dcoscina (Oct 6, 2020)

Rob said:


> Don't know why, but I've always had a hard time connecting with Bartok's language... it's not dissonance per se, since I have no problem with Stravinsky and others, but his peculiar taste for harmony. I have to admit this is an opinion I formed in my youth and I could possibly change my view now, if I had the time and will to sit and listen with some attention. I remember I listened to part of the Concerto for Orchestra some time ago and kind of liked it..


Totally get it. Bartok’s harmonic language stems from his study of native Romanian folk music. I remember we had to sing some of those songs in university and the strange modulations perplexed me as a late teenager. 
However, now I enjoy the atypical harmonic quality of Bartok’s music. Much like Prokofiev’s, it doesn’t move in predictable ways and is a delight for the ears. But I’m admittedly going through a bit of an atonal phase now where most diatonic stuff just doesn’t do it for me.


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## re-peat (Oct 6, 2020)

Bartók wrote many sublime masterpieces but I don't think the "The Miraculous Mandarin" is one of them. Personal opinion, of course.
It's one of those virtuoso, brutal and (in my view) wildly over-orchestrated pieces that were all the rage during a decade or two after "The Sacre". Prokofiev's "Pas d'Acier" is another one. (And it's not that I have a problem with the 20th-century-or-later idiom: I can sit out the entire Stravinsky catalog non-stop, including his serial autumn, and feel blissfully at peace and profoundly happy the entire time.)

What makes the "The Miraculous Mandarin" important however — still in my strictly personal opinion, that is — is that I think it's one of a handful of works that needed to be written for Bartók to get to the next phase of his development. "Firebird" is also such a stepping-stone piece: a stretch of road that its composer needed to travel to help him discover his true path. Neither "The Miraculous Mandarin" or "The Firebird" are, by the way, in an idiom that their respective composers would ever return to, but it's an idiom and a style that they had to master first before being able to proceed, I believe.

And Bartok's orchestration (to single out just one aspect of the music) became, in my view, much-much-much better — purer, more balanced, more integral to the music — after "The Miraculous Mandarin".

That said, the strong appeal of "The Miraculous Mandarin" is wholly understandable, particularly among musicians who love and practice film music, because, together with the "Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste", it's among the most filmic of all Bartok's works, and certainly among his music that had the biggest influence on film composers. (You can quite easily drop countless chunks of the "Mandarin" music into any dark or fantasy action movie, and it'll be bull's eye every single time.) Plenty of very exciting music, quite easy to project meaning(s) and emotion(s) onto, and every note written down with supreme technical skill. So yes, the appeal is beyond all doubt.

But I'm of the opinion that Bartók wrote much better music than "The Miraculous Mandarin", a.o. the "Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste", the "Cantata Profana", "Dance Suite", the "Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion", the late string quartets, some of the piano music, the last two of his three Piano Concertos, the "Divertimento" and the "Concerto for Orchestra".

_


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## dcoscina (Oct 6, 2020)

@re-peat always value your insights! I won't disagree either. Concerto for Orchestra is one of THE masterworks of the 20th century. I'm also fond of Two Portraits.


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## jamwerks (Oct 6, 2020)

Major fan of Bela here. 2nd Concerto for Pno & Orch my personal fav. Love also his 1st. Also sublime the 2 Sonatas for Vln & Pno, and great studios for those interested in his harmony.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 6, 2020)

JohnG said:


> by far my favourite Bartok (although I love the quartets and the duets, so..)
> 
> Love it -- bought the score, etc.



Music for Strings, Celeste, and Percussion is also up there for me. Miraculous Mandarin is on the B side.

And I still have the score (to SC&P) from Conducting II at Berklee. Also the one to the Rite.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 6, 2020)

And L'Histoire du Soldat, and Octet for Winds.

But those are cheating - Stravinsky is a different person.


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## JohnG (Oct 6, 2020)

Well, I never fell in love with the "Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste" or, honestly most of his other orchestral pieces. There is something unleashed and crazy about the "Miraculous Mandarin" that just grabs me. Part of it may be the story; same with Wozzeck and Lulu, which I also adore (especially Wozzeck, which I can never hear enough of).


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## kgdrum (Oct 6, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Well, I never fell in love with the "Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste" or, honestly most of his other orchestral pieces. There is something unleashed and crazy about the "Miraculous Mandarin" that just grabs me. Part of it may be the story; same with Wozzeck and Lulu, which I also adore (especially Wozzeck, which I can never hear enough of).




Agreed Music for Strings,Percussion and Celeste is a masterpiece!
Alban Berg is for me one of the most fascinating composers ever 💡
Wozzeck hits me as dark psychedelic opera,it’s the only opera on my playlist,lol Lulu,the Chamber Concerto,3 Orchestral Pieces.......... imo Berg is one of the most underrated composers of the 20th Century.


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## dcoscina (Jan 1, 2021)

I've mentioned this in another thread but I'm absolutely obsessed with The Wooden Prince. Written earlier than Miraculous Mandarin, it's one of the more pleasant narrative endings in Bartok's catalog. I listened to the Fischer recording that came with the Decca Complete Works 32 disc set but I will always defer to Boulez's fiery and deliberate paced CSO version. 



I also forgot how much I love his Dance Suite and Four Orchestral Pieces. Of course Bluebeard's Castle is stunning as well.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 2, 2021)

He was also a very musical pianist if this is anything to go by. His phrases really sing imv.


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## kgdrum (Jan 2, 2021)

@mikeh-375 

WOW! Thanks for posting this,I’ve never heard Bartok play before!

😍


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## GdT (Jan 2, 2021)

I studied the Concerto for Orchestra a long time ago and I think it is briliant.
When I was learning Piano many years ago my far sighted teacher got me playing Bartok's piano pieces. An excellent education.


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## ed buller (Jan 2, 2021)

re-peat said:


> (You can quite easily drop countless chunks of the "Mandarin" music into any dark or fantasy action movie, and it'll be bull's eye every single time.)


spot on. The bulk of the pitch set used in Rehearsal 62 is a staple of many a John williams and Jerry Goldsmith cues (0,1,4)





But i'm with Re-Peat....as good as it is much better was to come. I went to his house in Budapest years ago. Fantastic place....Wonderful composer

best

e


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## JohnG (Jan 2, 2021)

Completely forgot Bluebeard. Have to listen later today


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## dcoscina (Nov 7, 2021)

JohnG said:


> by far my favourite Bartok (although I love the quartets and the duets, so..)
> 
> Love it -- bought the score, etc.


Which publication did you get John? I have this dinky little version which is impossible to read. I saw that there is a full sized Universal Edition available from Germany. Kinda expensive but might be worth it...

I revisited this score last week and found that the Boulez reading with the New York Phil to now be the definitive interpretation because the brass sounds so raw and vicious. That opening figure in the trombone is often performed too safe and more like a tenuto instead of a marc where the tone is fully exposed, not muted after the initial attack. The Dutoit has a similar interpretation.


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## JohnG (Nov 7, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I have this dinky little version which is impossible to read.


I have probably the same one. It’s a miniature score and pretty challenging to read.

I think it _should_ be raw and harsh. The story is absolutely savage and I think Bartok would be thrilled to hear it ripped apart, so to speak.


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## bdr (Nov 7, 2021)

love Bartok, such a unique voice. One of my favourite pieces is his Divertimento. All the movements are great, but the 2nd mvt. is spine tingling in that Bartok 'night music' way. Can definitely hear Thomas Newman's Shawshank music in there...


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## dcoscina (Nov 8, 2021)

The fascinating aspect of Bartok’s melodic and harmonic practices is how he used mixed modes within the same phrase. Ascending up one and descending with another. It completely rails against our conditioned expectations of diatonic harmony. He was also so meticulous in terms of the symmetry and angular nature of his music. This helps following and understanding his music; as complex as these lines and harmonies can be to the ear, there is a pervasive logic that is completely evident.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 8, 2021)

I wish I coud learn to compose with such enormous freedom as in the
Valse (Ma mie qui danse), op.6 n.14


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2022)

Just got this and WOW, I love every performance on this set. I dig the deliberate pace of Concerto for Orchestra compared to so many other conductor's who blaze through it and miss all of the exquisite details. I've been in Bartok mode since last summer and I'm endlessly fascinated with his work.


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2022)

BTW- if you think John Williams' orchestrations are complex, try Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin... yeesh. So much detail. Crazy.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 29, 2022)

The first thing my teacher threw at me when learning to play piano as a kid was Bartoks Mikrokosmos. Really happy he did.


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> The first thing my teacher threw at me when learning to play piano as a kid was Bartoks Mikrokosmos. Really happy he did.


Bartok's rhythms are tricky! but I love them. His harmonic resolutions are also atypical which is also great when listening. But he's still tuneful and not overtly dissonant/atonal. He has his moments but the foundation of his music is still tonally based.


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## jonnybutter (Jan 29, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> @re-peat always value your insights! I won't disagree either. Concerto for Orchestra is one of THE masterworks of the 20th century. I'm also fond of Two Portraits.


Concerto for Orchestra is what did it for me for Bartok. I always wanted to like him, and liked elements - esp some of his melodies - but hearing CFO made me really ‘get it’


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## jonnybutter (Jan 29, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> Just got this and WOW, I love every performance on this set. I dig the deliberate pace of Concerto for Orchestra compared to so many other conductor's who blaze through it and miss all of the exquisite details. I've been in Bartok mode since last summer and I'm endlessly fascinated with his work.


The Boulez recording of CFO is the first one I heard. Blew me away. Transparent. Incredible. Moves me to tears sometimes when I listen to it.


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> The Boulez recording of CFO is the first one I heard. Blew me away. Transparent. Incredible. Moves me to tears sometimes when I listen to it.


for years I've listened to that as well as his stage works from the CSO. However I find the New York Phil recordings (from 1972) to be more electric, and edgy, and detailed


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## jonnybutter (Jan 29, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> for years I've listened to that as well as his stage works from the CSO. However I find the New York Phil recordings (from 1972) to be more electric, and edgy, and detailed


I know what you mean. Those 70s recordings (of Le Sacre and Petrushka too) have a great energy. And I wonder if maybe dynamic range not being as extended contributes to that? Anyway, agree


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## dcoscina (Feb 1, 2022)

Just got this book last night and I love its treatise that Bartok was not the deliberate, system-based composer he's long been associated with but one who operated on intuition and disliked dissecting his music. this book has a plethora of photos of his autographed scores, sketches, development ideas, and first-hand accounts from his letters to his family. Pretty amazing. I think I can discard all other books on this composer.


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## dcoscina (Feb 3, 2022)

No obsession here...


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## dcoscina (Dec 22, 2022)

Really enjoying this work the past few days. I've also been listening to Williams' Star Wars Trilogy and the Ep IV and V actually have a lot of Bartok inspiration, especially in Williams' tendency for polymodal lines. Neat.


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## joebaggan (Dec 23, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> Just got this book last night and I love its treatise that Bartok was not the deliberate, system-based composer he's long been associated with but one who operated on intuition and disliked dissecting his music. this book has a plethora of photos of his autographed scores, sketches, development ideas, and first-hand accounts from his letters to his family. Pretty amazing. I think I can discard all other books on this composer.


You had mentioned Shostakovich in another thread recently - any recommendations on a good book about his music? More looking for info about his musical style/theory, musical influences, and creative process rather than a straight bio or about politics/relationship to stalin etc. 

( and back to the topic, am going to check out this bartok book too hehe )


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## ptram (Dec 24, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Well, if the book didn't scare you, then the synopsis of Bluebeard's Castle should! Its quite a twisted tale even by today's horror movie standards.


Jean-Pierre Ponnelle even added a touch of sci-fi to the tale. Convincing, for me, but in a way detrimental for the macabre in the original.

Paolo


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## dcoscina (Dec 24, 2022)

joebaggan said:


> You had mentioned Shostakovich in another thread recently - any recommendations on a good book about his music? More looking for info about his musical style/theory, musical influences, and creative process rather than a straight bio or about politics/relationship to stalin etc.
> 
> ( and back to the topic, am going to check out this bartok book too hehe )


There are lots of biographies on Shostakovich but not as many theory treatises I have found. However David Hurwitz’s book does look at his major works (symphonies mostly) in terms of structure and theory to a degree). 

Shostakovich Symphonies and Concertos: An Owner's Manual https://a.co/d/3opUv6C


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## dcoscina (Dec 24, 2022)

I think there are more books on Bartok’s music style because he had a very unique harmonic language. He also had a very interesting sense of musical symmetry and structure. No doubt his years spent cataloging folk music had a profound influence on him.


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2022)

joebaggan said:


> You had mentioned Shostakovich in another thread recently - any recommendations on a good book about his music? More looking for info about his musical style/theory, musical influences, and creative process rather than a straight bio or about politics/relationship to stalin etc.
> 
> ( and back to the topic, am going to check out this bartok book too hehe )


Sarah Reichardt has a good book on four of the quartets. Joan Titus is working on a three volume set on the film scores. Volume 1 is out, and volume 2 should be out sometime next year.


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## R.G. (Dec 26, 2022)

joebaggan said:


> You had mentioned Shostakovich in another thread recently - any recommendations on a good book about his music? More looking for info about his musical style/theory, musical influences, and creative process...



Do a search for a couple of papers that may still be available (maybe for free, even):

*Triadic Post-Tonality and Linear Chromaticism in the Music of Dmitri Shostakovich*
William Hussey

*Dissertation on Dmitry Shostakovich's Harmonic Language*
Scott Marino


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## rhizomusicosmos (Dec 26, 2022)

I was floored by Concerto for Orchestra when I first heard it in high school music class -- that with Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time started a lifelong love of modernism. My goto recordings are Boulez and Reiner both with the CSO. 

I have the Boosey & Hawkes pocket score which is clear but tiny. I see there is a new "urtext" edition from 2019. Does anyone have an opinion on this one?








Bartók, B: Concerto for Orchestra


Sheet music for Bartók, B: Concerto for Orchestra: buy online. orchestra (Orch). Published by Henle Verlag. Composer: Bartók. Editor: Móricz, Klára.



www.prestomusic.com


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