# Ryzen latency issues finally solved by direct core cache?



## Dracarys (Oct 26, 2020)

Just saw this the other day, hoping it will solve any latency issues experienced with Ryzen 3000:


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## Pictus (Oct 27, 2020)

Looks like it will.


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## chimuelo (Oct 27, 2020)

Awesome.

I really can’t wait for Intel to answer.

By that time in 2024 my Ryzen 5800 Cezanne will turn into a spare to extend its life and my 6.5GHz/64MB L3 cache Cinco Core Shasta Lake will be Killing it.


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## Dracarys (Oct 27, 2020)

I just hope AMD has a lot of motherboard configs. I'd like my next build to fit in an ITX case for portability.


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## chimuelo (Oct 27, 2020)

I wanted this for the Occulink connectors but went with mATX.

High quality server parts, thick PCB, short trace lines, no gunk.






ASRock Rack > X570D4I-2T







www.asrockrack.com


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## Dracarys (Oct 27, 2020)

Nice, but I might want more PCIe lanes for my 3x2tb NVMe ssds using an adapter, keeping my OS on a m.2, and maybe another 2tb regular sata ssd. I've read m.2 lanes are comprised and share bandwidth sometimes, not sure how that's going to work out.


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## chimuelo (Oct 28, 2020)

OCuLink might address your storage needs.









What is OCuLink? - Stephen Foskett, Pack Rat


With the advent of AMD Threadripper and Epyc, we are about to see an explosion of PCIe lanes in the pro-sumer and datacenter market. Although many of those lanes will be taken up by conventional PCIe cards, some will be used for SSD's (M.2 and U.2) or for external connectivity. This is where...




blog.fosketts.net


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## MGdepp (Oct 28, 2020)

The PCI lanes wouldn’t be that important to me, as I am looking for a new VEpro samples machine (which used to be called the S-word that is not PC). But for that I certainly want 4 Ram channels with the option of going 256gb ram and higher and also for the increased speed of 4 ram channels.

The way I understand AMDs Plans, the next Threadrippers will probably be as low latency (and good single core speed) as these new Zen 3 gamers CPUs AND going higher in core count and offering more PCI lanes and ram channels ... but there is no new Threadripper planned 2020, right? I suppose the new Threadrippers will arrive with Zen 4 in the end of 2021 or 2022. Or is there reason to expect a sooner refresh?


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## Dracarys (Oct 28, 2020)

I never understood the point of a slave unless it's for video, or you have a motherboard with less storage and ram, or a weak cpu. Is the performance that much better? My current 3930k can run massive sessions if we're only talkin regular orchestral samples. Synths and poorly programmed kontakt libraries are another matter.

Yes 4 dimm slots is another plus. No idea about thread ripper, that amount of cores is overkill for me.




MGdepp said:


> The PCI lanes wouldn’t be that important to me, as I am looking for a new VEpro samples machine (which used to be called the S-word that is not PC). But for that I certainly want 4 Ram channels with the option of going 256gb ram and higher and also for the increased speed of 4 ram channels.
> 
> The way I understand AMDs Plans, the next Threadrippers will probably be as low latency (and good single core speed) as these new Zen 3 gamers CPUs AND going higher in core count and offering more PCI lanes and ram channels ... but there is no new Threadripper planned 2020, right? I suppose the new Threadrippers will arrive with Zen 4 in the end of 2021 or 2022. Or is there reason to expect a sooner refresh?


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## MGdepp (Oct 28, 2020)

Dracarys said:


> I never understood the point of a slave unless it's for video, or you have a motherboard with less storage and ram, or a weak cpu. Is the performance that much better? My current 3930k can run massive sessions if we're only talkin regular orchestral samples. Synths and poorly programmed kontakt libraries are another matter.
> 
> Yes 4 dimm slots is another plus. No idea about thread ripper, that amount of cores is overkill for me.


16 cores would be fine for my purposes! It is mainly about the 4 channels of ram (not 4 slots, which most gaming boards got anyway - there is a difference between channels and slots!). The reason I wait for a threadripper is there will probably be a higher Kontakt voice limit for that platform.

The reasons for me wanting to still use more than one PC is:
1. I run a hackintosh which is limited to 128gb ram and that does not allow me to load my full template.
2. I right orchestral arrangements with high voice counts and do a lot of layering of different libraries. That still requires you to run more than one PC, if you do not want to freeze tracks. The day is probably near that one machine will do it all without the need for additional workstations. I suppose, a Zen 4 with high core count, 514gb ram, lots of SSDs will do it all on one machine ... 

I just wouldn't pay the amount for a Mac with those specs ... have you seen what price a Mac Pro like that would sell for? And the Xeon W in it would be only as good as a i9 109xx regarding streaming voices - possibly worse due to the lower clock speed! That is why I am still going to rely on two separate machine for the coming years. I am also quite used to using VEpro for that purpose and it will be quite an improvement to cut down from 2 additional PCs to one.


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## Dracarys (Oct 28, 2020)

16 cores is fine, I thought you mean 20+ cores. The 5950X will have 16 cores. I see, I try not to go over 64 gb of ram, I might jump to 128. I feel the bigger the session and more stuff floating around, the more overwhelmed I get, killing my writing.

Ah yes hackintosh, I miss mine. I hope AMD will be supported, most likely these days.

Threadripper allows higher kontakt voice count than the 5950X?

Also, sounds like you're breaking up libraries/articulations a lot. So for example you're loading multiple CSS patches on separate tracks, sus, leg, stac, etc, thats ALOT of ram. However, on Windows 10, if you load the same patch, the ram does not double. On OSX, loading two of the exact same patching automatically doubles ram. This is the main thing I disliked about my DAW and OSX




MGdepp said:


> 16 cores would be fine for my purposes! It is mainly about the 4 channels of ram (not 4 slots, which most gaming boards got anyway - there is a difference between channels and slots!). The reason I wait for a threadripper is there will probably be a higher Kontakt voice limit for that platform.
> 
> The reasons for me wanting to still use more than one PC is:
> 1. I run a hackintosh which is limited to 128gb ram and that does not allow me to load my full template.
> ...


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## MGdepp (Oct 30, 2020)

What I really still wonder: is there any new Threadripper on the horizon? Amd to be clear again - I don’t want more cores! I just want more workstation specs, like more ram channels (and slots on the motherboard) and more pci lanes.

As far as I can see, there is no announcement from AMD, but other people might know more about computers than me, that is why I am asking.


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## Dracarys (Oct 31, 2020)

MGdepp said:


> But for that I certainly want 4 Ram channels with the option of going 256gb ram and higher and also for the increased speed of 4 ram channels.



Is there really a noticeable difference between 2x32gb, vs 4x32gb, or even 4x16gb?


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## MGdepp (Oct 31, 2020)

If you look at Kontakt streaming voices (Scan Pro Audio), there is a significant differences between a i9 10980 XE and a i9 9900k (which is probably similar to the 10990k). Besides, you obviously can install more ram - only for that I would wanna choose the enthusiast route. Especially with a 1-2 computer setup!


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## Alex Sopala (Oct 31, 2020)

MGdepp said:


> What I really still wonder: is there any new Threadripper on the horizon? Amd to be clear again - I don’t want more cores! I just want more workstation specs, like more ram channels (and slots on the motherboard) and more pci lanes.
> 
> As far as I can see, there is no announcement from AMD, but other people might know more about computers than me, that is why I am asking.



If they do, it'll be a few months out, if last gen was of any indication. I imagine they might, but the issue is that Ryzen and Threadripper are in their last gen on DDR4, so future upgradeability will be extremely limited because switching to DDR5 means a whole new chipset. It's for that reason X670 wasn't a thing they released with the new CPUs, because the next big feature set is DDR5.


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## MGdepp (Nov 1, 2020)

Thanks! I wasn‘t aware of the immanent DDR5 transition. I guess it will be better to wait for a next generation with a new motherboard equipped for DDR5 and a new AMD CPU with low latency. I suppose, this could really be killer machine running good for a long time.


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## Alex Sopala (Nov 1, 2020)

MGdepp said:


> Thanks! I wasn‘t aware of the immanent DDR5 transition. I guess it will be better to wait for a next generation with a new motherboard equipped for DDR5 and a new AMD CPU with low latency. I suppose, this could really be killer machine running good for a long time.



Ultimately depends on how soon you need a new computer. I imagine AMD will keep compatibility going with the AM5 platform, and DDR5 promises 64GB DIMMS if you need the RAM amount for templates (and possibly 128gb DIMMS in the future, which will be well beyond what most of us will need in a machine).


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## MGdepp (Nov 1, 2020)

No, I don't need 128GB DIMMS - at least not on an 8-slot motherboard! That would be overkill for my needs. But I would like to go somewhere like 256GB Ram - maybe with the option to upgrade that later, but that is probably not going to be necessary, unless we will see some orchestral libraries with incredible RAM requirements. But I rather think, that we will see lower consumption in the future despite larger libraries. I am rather looking forward to a increased (doubled) bandwidth of DDR5. Shouldn't that boost the voice-streaming count considerably? I just think that there will soon be a single PC that will not have any problem with really dense arrangements with lots of mic positions used, multiply layered sounds, etc ...


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## Alex Sopala (Nov 1, 2020)

MGdepp said:


> No, I don't need 128GB DIMMS - at least not on an 8-slot motherboard! That would be overkill for my needs. But I would like to go somewhere like 256GB Ram - maybe with the option to upgrade that later, but that is probably not going to be necessary, unless we will see some orchestral libraries with incredible RAM requirements. But I rather think, that we will see lower consumption in the future despite larger libraries. I am rather looking forward to a increased (doubled) bandwidth of DDR5. Shouldn't that boost the voice-streaming count considerably? I just think that there will soon be a single PC that will not have any problem with really dense arrangements with lots of mic positions used, multiply layered sounds, etc ...



I think we're possibly at that point now, arguably, and probably have been with the 28 core Xeons (I know of TV composers that use just one machine with that processor to run both VEPro templates along with Logic and Pro Tools all at once, but I don't know which libraries and to what degree, just that the RAM footprint goes into 200+GB RAM), but that thing is 10,000 bucks just for the processor, is a few generations old by now, and still might be massively overkill for most applications. That's without going into what libraries you use and in what capacity, and how much computer horsepower one really needs. As soon as Threadripper sorts out their latency issues and we get to DDR5 (or just use LRDIMMs in Threadripper Pro to get the massive RAM), it'll be a bit more attainable.

If anything, if there's a machine that can do all that AND at a 64 sample buffer size, that'll be the day. And I imagine it's right around the corner.


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## colony nofi (Nov 1, 2020)

Zen 3 Threadripper due March 2021
5950X looks a beast. Threadripper will offer some useful extras for large amounts of ram etc.
We run often at the bleeding edge of what is possible - and the 5950X looks a sure fire bet for both core0 (single threaded) applications and spreading dsp over multiple cores where appropriate. It looks like it will beat any other workstation we have used, including both large Xeon and 10940 HEDT machines, except for occassions where >128GB ram is needed (which TR / 109X0 based machines could handle in spades)

Time will tell. If stock is around fairly quickly, we will def be a guinea pig for a fairly robust DAW by end of this year using 5950X, but for my own personal workstation, I think I'll hang out for Zen3 TR to get the greater memory support (looking at 256GB)
Fingers crossed its single core perf will match 5950X


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## Technostica (Nov 2, 2020)

MGdepp said:


> Thanks! I wasn‘t aware of the immanent DDR5 transition. I guess it will be better to wait for a next generation with a new motherboard equipped for DDR5 and a new AMD CPU with low latency.


I doubt AMD will release a Ryzen with DDR5 until 2022.



MGdepp said:


> I am rather looking forward to a increased (doubled) bandwidth of DDR5. Shouldn't that boost the voice-streaming count considerably?


It will take a while for DDR5 bandwidth to double the official DDR4 JEDEC limit of 3,200.
DDR4 didn’t start at that level by any means and DDR5 isn’t starting at 6,400. 
They have a roadmap which shows what they expect; 4,800 seems more realistic at launch.
I’m ignoring over-clocked RAM and just reporting on official JEDEC standards.

To get an idea how much bandwidth helps with a DAW, it should be easy as you can test a Threadripper in both dual and quad channel mode and see the difference. 
Dual to Quad channel is a 100% increase which may be twice the increase of what we’ll see with first generation DDR5.
Keep in mind that the actual latency of RAM hasn’t changed that much in years.
As the RAM speed goes up, so also does the CAS latency which means the actual latency doesn’t change much.



MGdepp said:


> No, I don't need 128GB DIMMS - at least not on an 8-slot motherboard! That would be overkill for my needs. But I would like to go somewhere like 256GB Ram - maybe with the option to upgrade that later.


128GB non-ECC DIMMs are on the road map for DDR5 but no idea when they hope to release those.
So in theory in the future mainstream desktop systems could support 4x 128GB for a total of 512GB.
That depends on whether the CPU makers want to support that much as they will lose some sales from HEDT and it will cost them extra to produce and validate.

On top of this, DDR5 will be very expensive at launch as is the case with all recent new RAM versions.
So if you are budgeting for 256GB of fast DDR5, then adjust your budget accordingly.
Threadripper 5000 series using Zen 3 chips sounds like a very solid platform. I wouldn’t recommend people wait another 15 months or so on top. If there are problems with Zen 4 or TSMC’s 5nm then the wait could be even longer.


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## Jay Panikkar (Nov 3, 2020)

The 3000 series—I'm using a 3900X—already resolves _some_ of the latency issues that was present in the previous generation. It seems the 5000 series will bring the latency down close to what we usually see with monolithic processor designs (such as Intel).

Regardless, audio latency is not affected by the latency caused by Ryzen CCX design. The only thing that matters is how many instructions per second the processor is able to push through. This can be increased with higher clocks, more cores, more instructions per clock or some combination of the three. 

According to the currently available data re: Ryzen IPC, a 5000 series processor with 4.5 GHz will match the performance of a current generation Intel processor clocked at 5.3 GHz, given the same core counts and processor class.

I'm looking forward to new generation Threadripper, but no information yet. I might go for a 5000 series TR for a second system but I definitely won't be replacing my 3000 series desktop.


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## colony nofi (Nov 4, 2020)

I would imagine a Zen3 TR withe 128-256GB ram could become the go-to system for those of us that like to work with a "single system to rule them all". No problem running Dual DAW systems for video+cues+surround mixing all at the same time. Well, I cross my fingers at least. I have made the decision to hold off purchasing until Zen3 TR details surface late Q1 next year. 

And play with a 5950X we will build for one of the other studios here...


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## jafhouse (Nov 4, 2020)

Can I ask if there is any particular strategy around pairing a DAI solution that won't choke on this type of capacity. Would this require thunderbolt (which I believe AMD is supporting on select MB's??) Or, is this a completely different question and doesn't play into consideration for the kind of use these builds need to support?

Thanks


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## Jay Panikkar (Nov 4, 2020)

jafhouse said:


> Can I ask if there is any particular strategy around pairing a DAI solution that won't choke on this type of capacity. Would this require thunderbolt (which I believe AMD is supporting on select MB's??) Or, is this a completely different question and doesn't play into consideration for the kind of use these builds need to support?
> 
> Thanks



Most DAWs don't even use current generation processors efficiently. It seems they cap out at 16 cores. Any additional cores won't affect audio processing performance but they will give you a lot of headroom to run other applications simultaneously. DAW developers will need to do a lot of refactoring in order to leverage newer generation processors. 

Studio One seems to be the most efficient in terms of load balancing compared to other DAWs; Cubase—which is my preferred DAW—doesn't seem to know how to balance processor load >12 cores.

You can use any Audio Interface, it doesn't matter unless the software / drivers are completely outdated. There are many AM4 motherboards that support USB-C and/or Thunderbolt so you shouldn't run into any problems on that end.


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## Hendrixon (Nov 4, 2020)

Technostica said:


> I doubt AMD will release a Ryzen with DDR5 until 2022.
> 
> 
> It will take a while for DDR5 bandwidth to double the official DDR4 JEDEC limit of 3,200.
> ...



Perfect post. saved me from posting lol
Re-post this every time in the next 2 years someone says "I'll wait for DDR5"


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## colony nofi (Nov 4, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Perfect post. saved me from posting lol
> Re-post this every time in the next 2 years someone says "I'll wait for DDR5"


Yes. Hardware guys I'm speaking to are indicating DDR5 will first come to Zen4 desktops (new MB / platform) and later 3-6months to TR. Zen 4 is looking like Q1 2022 although there are persistent rumours coming from fabs that its possible they'll be ready for mass production launch in 12 months time - which would REALLY turn the screws on intel. (Manufacturing samples on the 5nm process for zen4 are already done 3 or 4 months ago now.)
These guys have been good for release timeframes for a good 2 years now, so I'm definitely not discounting the info.

Pcie5 is still looking like 2022... would AMD wait and drop it all at once (DDR5 is very likely to partner Zen4). My bet is PCIE5 will not be part of the next platform for AMD, but we will see. Ditto USB 4 (for a number of reasons, but I'm happy to be proven wrong on this one.)

Chasing the end of the rainbow....

Has anyone else looked closely into TSMC's 5nm process? Approx. 80mm2 core area (over 7nm's 74mm2)with a transistor density uptick of 80% (Just WOW!). Couple that with their solid increases in production capacity for 2021 (they're going to need it!) and AMD are looking VERY good to have partnered with TSMC - as are apple for their A series chips (already on the 5nm process).
Now, this is just inferences from the above info, but it definitely points to # of cores increasing significantly for Zen4 - even for the mainstream desktop models. Mainstream desktop could go up to 32 cores with this density, and EPYC could potentially see 128 cores on a single die. All conjecture - and I'm not certain desktop world is ready for 32 cores, but you never know. 24 seems very likely to me (and fits with the architecture of the chiplets that AMD has pursued!)


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