# Royalties and Game Scores



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

Please humour me, friends, as I have little-to-no knowledge or experience with game scoring. I'm just getting a little curious about this topic these days! 

Of course we know there are royalties for music used in film and tv. What, if anything, is there in terms of residuals in the game industry? I'm thinking of things like game rentals in video stores, for eg.


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## Alex W (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi Ned.

Afaik, royalties aren't usually paid with games, although I guess it depends on what you can negotiate in the contract. From what limited experience I have, the norm is to charge the developer of the game a one off fee, usually on a "per minute of music" basis.

I've heard of cases where the composer has negotiated for bonuses depending on how many copies of the game are sold, sometimes at the cost of charging a lower per minute rate. (Eg if it was a lower budget game and the developer couldn't pay as much up front, but the composer negotiated a deal whereby "if the game does well, I do well too")


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

Thanks for the info, Alex. I thought as much.

I guess that there's no way that composers are going to be getting the same deal in games as we do with broadcast and theatrical scores. That's a big drag, believe me! 

To give an example, I did the music for a teen tv series in 1998. I was supposed to get paid 30K Cdn or so for 13 1/2-hour episodes. The company went under before I was fully paid, and I ended up losing 7K. I was so pissed off! However, since then, I've earned 80K in royalties from that series over the years, as it's played in Europe and North America. I'm still earning royalties from it to this day! Wouldn't it be amazing if composers could get at least a a percentage on every game rental at the video store?


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## Alex W (Jun 1, 2005)

Argh 7k! Ouch. You're right though, the ongoing royalties would certainly have softened the blow.

It would be nice if we could charge royalties on game rentals, indeed! Still, game budgets are only getting bigger and therefore music for game budgets are too. Also, being able to charge more upfront on a per minute basis would mean that the average game composer would charge a lot more per minute of music than the average TV composer. They're both completely different ballgames, but at the end of the year the money would be pretty similar I'd say.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

Except for one, very important thing. You see the producers are not the ones who pay the royalties for tv broadcasts and theatrical releases. It's the broadcasters for the first, and the theatre chains for the other. So you can't really say to a game producer, "Please pay me more upfront what you would pay me later anyways if this was tv or film." That's why I think going after the chains that rent would make sense.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Anyway. Good luck with it.



Oh, but I don't have a project anywhere near my studio! I'm just thinking about what even trying to stretch my way into that world would mean. Thanks for the details, though.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

Actually, now that you mention it, being Mr Fantastic would come in handy sometimes! 

So what happened to your :roll: :roll: ? Are they Tuesdays and Sundays only?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

:lol: 

Do you mind editing them out now? It's just that it *really* slows down the vertical scrolling, and, well, you never know... this thread might still grow. :wink:


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## choc0thrax (Jun 1, 2005)

They don't slow down my computer, but then again my computer owns.


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## Hans Adamson (Jun 1, 2005)

They don't slow mine either. But I'm on a really old PC...They don't make'em like that any more. 
8)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

Hmmmm. Maybe I should trash this G5 and just buy a good old Mac Plus...

Actually, now that I think of it, I think it has to do with cache. Lots of cache. VSL-type cache. :lol:


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## choc0thrax (Jun 1, 2005)

Maybe trash it and buy a real computer- a PC.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 1, 2005)

choc0, remember. I live in your town. I can find your address and send over 18 large pizzas, and a dozen taxi cabs.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 1, 2005)

ok.


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## His Frogness (Jun 1, 2005)

Over the past few years the releasing of game OSTs has increased a lot. I think this is a trend that will continue. Ubi has their own publishing division now, as does EA and MS and , of course, Sony. This is a good opportunity for composers to get extra cash. OSTs are mostly for the super Triple A titles currently, but if sales go well and the market emerges then I believe you'll see OSTs for everything. Hopefully in a few years it will become a standard point of negotiation.


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## Scott Cairns (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi Michael, please forgive my ignorance, but you can explain what an OST is? Im guessing the "ST" part stands for "soundtrack"?

Its interesting cause a few big composers Ive spoken to say its almost unheard of to get backend deals these days. 

I request bonus payments, extra payments for each SKU, percentage of copies sold in every single contract, but am yet to have anyone agree to it.

I think to have any chance at all, you need to negotiate with the game publisher, not the developer.


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 2, 2005)

In films 'OST' = 'original soundtrack' as in the actual recording that was used in the film (although it has probably been remixed) and not a re-recording. I'm guessing the same would be true of the game biz?


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## José Herring (Jun 2, 2005)

I think that games have this cult following. Anything that is connected to a successful or even not so successful game becomes big money. OST while may not sell over the counter may very well be sold for big bucks in specialty mags and internet sites for gamers.

I think we need to think a little outside the box when it comes to the sale of film,tv and game music. The mass public is just mostly into songs because that's what they hear on the radio. But, soundtrack music has kind of a niche audience that probably will be willing to pay more per unit of a rare soundtrack.

So 5000 units at 100 to 200 bucks a pop might be decent change. I recently heard that John Debney's score to Hocus Pocus is going for $250 on ebay.


Who Knew???(old New York Jewish phrase meaning--I'm quite surprised-- for those that have never lived in New York)

Jose


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## choc0thrax (Jun 2, 2005)

Why pay $250.00 for it when you can get it free online??? Or maybe people just want it to collect rare stuff...


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## jc5 (Jun 2, 2005)

josejherring said:


> I think that games have this cult following. Anything that is connected to a successful or even not so successful game becomes big money. OST while may not sell over the counter may very well be sold for big bucks in specialty mags and internet sites for gamers.
> 
> I think we need to think a little outside the box when it comes to the sale of film,tv and game music. The mass public is just mostly into songs because that's what they hear on the radio. But, soundtrack music has kind of a niche audience that probably will be willing to pay more per unit of a rare soundtrack.
> 
> ...



Hmmm... I suppose that is possible - but those 5000 people theoretically paying that sort of money for a disc are probably not keen on the music - they are obviously, somewhat crazed, collectors! :wink: 

On the other hand, since most game soundtracks are made with sampled or synth instruments, even 5000 copies at regular prices is nothing to be scoffed at since the composer is just about the only person who will be collecting that money.


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## His Frogness (Jun 2, 2005)

Scott Cairns said:


> Hi Michael, please forgive my ignorance, but you can explain what an OST is? Im guessing the "ST" part stands for "soundtrack"?
> 
> Its interesting cause a few big composers Ive spoken to say its almost unheard of to get backend deals these days.
> 
> ...



Hey Scott 

Given the fact that publishers are the ones that put it all together I think you're right to assume the deal would be through the publisher. As far as development studios go, they would probably try and intermediate for the composer if the composer has no relationship with the publisher but the developer does. 

I haven't heard of anyone getting backend deals personally, but these Original SoundTrack releases are a bit different. Now I've only seen this OST thing happen twice, but both times it was proposed after the game was released, so it obviously fell outside of the parameters of the contract. One time it was proposed by the publisher and one time it was proposed by the developer, but both times the composer was involved and the contract for the OST resembled a standard music contract more than a dev/composer contract with payment based on royalties.

I think there's actually 2 or 3 internet radio sites that are dedicated to game music so there should be seeing some mechanicals involved in that as well, though I'm not sure that internet radio has to pay mechanicals either. Does anyone know this?


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## jc5 (Jun 3, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Mind you there are marketing/PR, publishing/distribution, printing, labels and other elements included in the cost. 5000 units might buy you a bread, but you certainly won?t be able to afford the butter. Its really not alot of money. Please note that game soundtracks does NOT sell 5000 on an average. I was referring to motion picture soundtracks, which sells about 5000 units on an average.



Right you are on all points. I was just going with 5000 units, since that was the number that had come up in conversation - I realise that that number is rarely reached..

Even with all the expenses that eat away at the profit margin, it is still a decent amount of money that will reach the composer - it won't make anyone rich, I never claimed that :wink: , but it is certainly more than I am making right now... :lol: ....... :? ...... :( ...... :cry:


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