# Short lower strings recommendation wanted



## AndyP (Aug 8, 2019)

I assume this question has been asked many times before, but I'm not completely satisfied yet.
I'm still looking for the biting, powerful short strings, especially in the low registers, cello and double bass.

Neither Hollywood Strings nor VSL SE Bundle Strings have convinced me so far. I like to use Spiccatos from The Orchestra because they are very aggressive, or Layer VSL Chamber Strings with Solo Cello or sometimes Furia Strings.

My problem is that the sustain and release phase for fast bass ostinatos lines is too long for me and the sound is quickly blurred, especially with layered sounds. EQ, limiter / compressor settings haven't brought me to the right result yet.

I'm looking for powerful and bone dry doublebass and cello spiccato shorts that drive the beat properly in the depths, not thin and not washed out.
I'm happy with the mids and highs, but not in the low ranges.

I want a sound that cuts through the mix like a knife. Any ideas?


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## muk (Aug 8, 2019)

It's not entirely what you are looking for, but until others chime in with better suggestions you could try Project Sam's 'Bombastic Basses':

https://projectsam.com/libraries/tfo-6-bombastic-basses/
It's a free library, so nothing to loose.


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## AndyP (Aug 8, 2019)

Thank you, I will try this! 
Edit: Ok, I already have them in Symphobia. But not satisfying enough 🤔


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## paularthur (Aug 8, 2019)

I've been liking adventure strings.


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## AndyP (Aug 8, 2019)

paularthur said:


> I've been liking adventure strings.


Yes, they are great. I also use trailer strings, but unfortunately not the sound I'm looking for. It is a special project with lots of low registered sounds, deep, dark, over the edge. Unfortunately non of them suits perfect. Maybe I should try something like ... using effects instead of changing the patches.


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## playz123 (Aug 8, 2019)

Have you tested the short strings in Spitfire's Iceni library?


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## AndyP (Aug 8, 2019)

playz123 said:


> Have you tested the short strings in Spitfire's Iceni library?


Not yet, I haven't had the Albion librarys in focus yet because I thought they were more hybrid synth oriented.
But the demos already sound like what I'm looking for. If I now find a demo with the strings alone ...
What I heard comes very close to my idea.

Thank you very much!


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## AndyP (Aug 8, 2019)

OK, I found this video on Youtube, an interesting comparison for short strings. I was looking for Iceni shorts, and ended up with this comparison. I could have searched for it earlier.

Iceni and Spitfire Symphonic Strings are very convincing. Also Albion 1 surprised me positively. I don't know why I always stayed away from Spitfire.

But I was also positively surprised by Adagietto. In the low range not so voluminous, but nicely biting...


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## Zero&One (Aug 8, 2019)

Iceni is excellent. Bought it on release and would buy it again.


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## Yury Tikhomirov (Aug 8, 2019)

SF LCOS' Vivid Spiccatos (Celli and Basses+Celli patches) keep on impressing me every time I am playing with them. The highlight of the whole library for me.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 8, 2019)

uh ark 1. done


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## Zero&One (Aug 9, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> uh ark 1. done



But the arks are not very dry, fantastic I agree. But OP wanted "powerful and bone dry doublebass and cello spiccato shorts". Iceni's close do clean up nicely, but are also not fitting of 'bone dry'
I've just tried them both and Iceni is... lovely 

@AndyP what type of music are these for may help suggestions?


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 9, 2019)

? close mics ???

you can trim the release tail if needed. Libraries like LASS aren't dry, they just have the tail edited off

I would challenge the original poster to show me an exact example of the sound they are trying to recreate.

Considering people are even suggesting Albion one, I would venture to say that most people who complain about wetness don't ever use close microphones for some weird reason


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## Zero&One (Aug 9, 2019)

Even with release tail, I'm not able to get Arks to sound as dry and tight as Iceni (although not exactly dry). But others may have achieved better results.
I bought Ark for that room sound


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 9, 2019)

Can you post an example, using a short phrase with a long nose and a few short notes

Bonus points if you post the midi file so it's easier to work with when I get home

I only have Albion 4 and 5 from the Albion series, although I have very many string libraries in general


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## Zero&One (Aug 9, 2019)

Will do dude. I'm out for next 18hrs so it'll probably be over the weekend


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## Sears Poncho (Aug 9, 2019)

AndyP said:


> I'm looking for powerful and bone dry doublebass and cello spiccato shorts that drive the beat properly in the depths, not thin and not washed out.
> I'm happy with the mids and highs, but not in the low ranges.
> 
> I want a sound that cuts through the mix like a knife. Any ideas?



Novo. In addition to individual sections, there is even a "low ensemble" patch. Huge sound.


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## benatural (Aug 9, 2019)

LASS Cellos have a feature called... Bite, or dig, or something like that I can't remember. It's a knob you can tune. But they are definitely the most aggressive shorts I've heard.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 9, 2019)

James H said:


> Will do dude. I'm out for next 18hrs so it'll probably be over the weekend


Filthy peasant!

I suppose I will have to wait, maybe I will post an example for you to pass through Albion 3.

Not nearly as important as the original poster providing an actual example of a finished product that they are trying to emulate.

The common issue I see often different microphones to achieve the sound they want and think that their entire template should be one microphone for every instrument with a Reverb, which is literally have nothing they have heard recorded is going to be made.

If someone loaded up for instance in orchestral tools Library and a Spitfire Library, they would find that the tree microphones are drastically different distances. and confuse this with wetness.

However the typical desired sound is almost always reachable with a combination of microphones, considering that is the sound of actual recorded music that we are used to.

So it's not like apples to apples, and the end result is not significantly different when you dial these libraries into a particular sound. Infact if you're actually EQing instruments to clean up/polish - then the difference is even smaller.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 9, 2019)

benatural said:


> LASS Cellos have a feature called... Bite, or dig, or something like that I can't remember. It's a knob you can tune. But they are definitely the most aggressive shorts I've heard.



neh, lass spiccatos are just noisy. Berlin strings spiccato exposed is a similiar(but vastly better sounding) version of the upper dynamics. Berlin string shorts are pretty darn tight in general too. Low menacing sustains works much better if you have access to the expansions and 98729872 gigs of ram.


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## Sears Poncho (Aug 9, 2019)

Here's a lil low end clip from Novo using the loop designer.


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## jbuhler (Aug 9, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> neh, lass spiccatos are just noisy. Berlin strings spiccato exposed is a similiar(but vastly better sounding) version of the upper dynamics. Berlin string shorts are pretty darn tight in general too. Low menacing sustains works much better if you have access to the expansions and 98729872 gigs of ram.


It's that RAM bit that I haven't been able to solve well and keeps me from embracing the Berlin series. Still, I was surprised to learn on that other thread you posted to that the BWW flute had a smaller RAM footprint than the SSW flute. Did I read you right there?


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## pandroid (Aug 9, 2019)

ark 1 low/mid strings. Fatty and epic


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 9, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> It's that RAM bit that I haven't been able to solve well and keeps me from embracing the Berlin series. Still, I was surprised to learn on that other thread you posted to that the BWW flute had a smaller RAM footprint than the SSW flute. Did I read you right there?



I was surprised myself how close they are, out of the box - which ends up being like 458 mb for the default solo flute "multi" from SSW and the multi from BWW eats 720mb. Ofcourse different articulations - but ultimately BWW ends up being much higher in RR. Main difference is - that in order to achieve that sound, I needed all 3 microphones to get a good balanced tone from SSW and the mixed single mic from BWW needs next to 0 treatment out of the box, thus uses less ram. Thus the extra ram in that scenario was actually the SSW using more mics. Could have probably dropped a single mic off and blended just the close and tree from spitfire, but that puts the patch at 900mb. Sorry if I mislead you - haha. Basically - if your goal is to sound good, BWW legacy has a mixed mic that gets you like 95% of the way there, just a splash of m7 and you're golden. Spitfire's tree is too distant/dull to be used on it's own without getting buried, so you basically need to use close mics or you'll lose it in the mix, and if you use only close mics - you're not getting any of the room, which is the only reason to choose the sound of SSW(close mics aren't as clean/good as berlin)


So TLDR version: if you don't mix like a dingus - but like libraries like CSS/CSB/Cinesamples that have mixed position single mics= you'll save ram because it's already both ambient and clear/punchy.

Would be interesting to compare them side by side using only single articulations to match - but again, the RR on shorts will end up being the main difference between the two articulation per articulation. As far as OPTIONS thats another story. SSW has like, staccato - tenuto - marcato. BBW has staccatissimo, staccato, portato short - portato long. SSW has minor 2nd and major 2nd trills - BBW has like +1-+4 trills and +1/2/3/4/5/6/7 measured trills - and a whole myriad of other random stuff.


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## AndyP (Aug 9, 2019)

James H said:


> @AndyP what type of music are these for may help suggestions?


Dark, dramatic, epic with choir and voice (oceania and etheria). The tragic ending scene after a "personal" disaster.
I have now decided against a deep string ostinato, since the ConMoto cellos have given the whole much more presence and drama and I only use ostinatos in the higher registers, carried by a swelling string wave and the teary voice. 
Is less restless and has more depth.
Unfortunately I don't have a soundcloud account, otherwise I would have posted this here. Don't share my outpourings so often. 
I only used performance samples for the strings, brass and the choir to see how they work together. I have to say, I like the sound, I don't want to say magic, but they sound very natural, alive in context.

I have to wipe a tear out of my face first ...


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## AndyP (Aug 9, 2019)

Is it allowed to attach an mp4 file of 2.1 mb? 🤔

The idea was, to get more power when the drums came in, but i decided to go for a legato cello line.
Its roughly unmixed and not finished, needs a lot of tidy up, thin out, but that was the idea of the scene.









PS Sample Test


MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.



 www.mediafire.com


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## Zero&One (Aug 9, 2019)

@ProfoundSilence 

Got 30mins spare so very quickly dropped this down.
Bass and Cello with out of box settings on Iceni. Just close mics and no eq or master bus stuff.
If you could see what you can get with Ark I'd be interested to hear. It just doesn't get close to this for me 

Anyhoo, midi attached and my scrappy audio.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 9, 2019)

James H said:


> @ProfoundSilence
> 
> Got 30mins spare so very quickly dropped this down.
> Bass and Cello with out of box settings on Iceni. Just close mics and no eq or master bus stuff.
> ...



that's the issue I brought up - it's a closer mic that ark 1 - but who is going to use the close mic only in a final mix?

maybe for some hip hop beats or something, but the end result is going to be either tree blended in or a large helping of reverb.

That's why I requested(to the OP) an example of something professionally produced that "bone dry" is trying to recreate. otherwise its an apples and oranges waste of time when they both end up in a fruit salad lol. Albion 3 close are pretty close in line with most spitfire stuff, but it's still going to be mixed back in with another farther mic


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## JEPA (Aug 9, 2019)

Before any further buy try your actual strings with:

1) close mics
2) a transient designer

Transient designer settings:
Attack>normal to short, release>short, gain>zero

Transient designer recommendations:

iZotope (this is the best because you can affect frequency bands)
Native-Instruments
PluginAlliance 
W.A. Imprint 
Others: Audio Assault (sale $5)
Auburn sounds Couture FREE


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## JEPA (Aug 9, 2019)

Another clue:

For fast movement 8dio legato arpeggio (violins, violas, cellos) is in sale, with code L8VE you get it for $28


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## AndyP (Aug 10, 2019)

JEPA said:


> Another clue:
> 
> For fast movement 8dio legato arpeggio (violins, violas, cellos) is in sale, with code L8VE you get it for $28



I give 8dio a chance, despite many negative reports.

I just download the legato arpeggio recommended by you and bought also adagietto, because the shorts sound very good.

Somehow it's crazy to get to the point to buy a library just for a very special sound. 
The price is low, so I don't have to think long about it.

I'm still waiting for the spitfire message who won the package.
Iceni has to wait until I have heard more single patches. The Iceni demo from James H hasn't convinced me yet that I need the package... I'd rather think about the SFSS, maybe they'll go into sale someday.

I thank you all for your advice and wish you a nice and creative weekend!


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 10, 2019)

the example you posted doesn't sound bone dry at all. basically the exact point I was making - that looking for bone dry libraries is pointless.


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## MartinH. (Aug 10, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> the example you posted doesn't sound bone dry at all. basically the exact point I was making - that looking for bone dry libraries is pointless.



Would you say if one was to attempt to get all the reverb from effects (algo and/or convolution), that using Ark 1 close mics only, with trimmed release tails, is the way to go to avoid the common issues with varying tail lengths that many/all wet libraries have? Or would it be better to use the standard close + tree setup and remove the release tails? In general I've been going back and forth on whether I want to use recorded reverb or strip it out and use my own, I just can't decide on what suits me better. Since I use the single articulation patches in Ark 1 it would be a lot of fiddling just to try it out.


Reference Soundtracks that I like (both real orchestra, though I don't know how they were recorded):


Spoiler


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## Zero&One (Aug 10, 2019)

Bloodborne - Orchestral Score Recorded at AIR Studios and Abbey Road


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## MartinH. (Aug 10, 2019)

James H said:


> Bloodborne - Orchestral Score Recorded at AIR Studios and Abbey Road



Do you know which sections they recorded together/separately?

My guess is choir separately, an I'm not sure about strings and brass:


Spoiler


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## Zero&One (Aug 10, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Do you know which sections they recorded together/separately?
> 
> My guess is choir separately, an I'm not sure about strings and brass:



I don't sorry. I love that video!
Only other info I could find was "features performances by a 65-piece orchestra and a 32-member choir. The development of the soundtrack lasted for around two and a half years."

It's a shame they don't video/document more of these as I would happily buy that DLC


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## Zero&One (Aug 10, 2019)

Added the other 2 instruments and trees. World needs more trees. Just for comparison.


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## AndyP (Aug 12, 2019)

I've found my solution.
8Dio had exactly what I was looking for.
The basses are a combination of the Adagietto basses and the Century Ostinato basses. Brilliant sound! Powerful, creaky, driving.
Adagietto spiccato mixed with the Century marcato bass sounds massive.
Ingenious dynamic, and I am positively surprised by 8Dio.

I wouldn't have stumbled across 8Dio without the note here in the forum. Brilliant!
Oceania and Lacrimosa now have what they needed. 

Thanks a lot folks!


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## AndyP (Aug 12, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> the example you posted doesn't sound bone dry at all. basically the exact point I was making - that looking for bone dry libraries is pointless.


It certainly wasn't the best example. I had less reverb and staccato basses at first, but it didn't sound good. 
Now I've found a good combinaton to play short, concise bass notes. 
So rebuild and the legato bass come only at the end.


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## Saxer (Aug 13, 2019)

LASS would be my first choice to add bite and tightness. They are dry and cut through everything. To get them roomy layer some wet samples of other libraries on top.
Layering synths/pianos/perc is another way to get shorts tighter.


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## LudovicVDP (Aug 13, 2019)

Fluid shorts by Performance samples?
Fluid Short 2 is coming...


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