# QL Spaces / NI Reflektor



## noiseboyuk (Oct 6, 2010)

Not seen too much discussion on these. QL Spaces looks way more expensive than I expected from the early comments - $299. Reflektor is less than half that, and included in the Komplete bundle. I'm particularly interested in resource use / latency - the NI version is touted as being especially good here, though that's just their say-so.

Really disappointed with this Spaces price point. Sure there will be more bells and whistles than Play's own built in IR, but it's more than one of their complete Play libraries in a sale! I was thinking sub $100...


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## RiffWraith (Oct 6, 2010)

*Re: QL Spaces / Reflektor*

Considering the fact that QL SPaces includes the irs from the original EWQLSO recordings, and especially considering the price point of Altiverb, Waves IR, the new Lexicon verb package, this is priced _extremely_ competitively.

Cheers.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 6, 2010)

With Reflektor, it seems really odd that you have to use it within Guitar Rig instead of just being a standalone plugin. Obviously it works, but just feels cumbersome having to do it that way.


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## Animus (Oct 6, 2010)

Convolution is so 2008.


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## Justus (Oct 6, 2010)

2008 is so 2008.


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## Ian Dorsch (Oct 6, 2010)

2010 is the new 2008.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 6, 2010)

QL Spaces is designed to replace all your existing reverbs. I've been working on it for six years, on and off. It will be interesting to see how it is received with all the existing reverb out there. The engine is very hi fi, extremely efficient in true stereo mode, and the controls are very basic. It's all about the impulses. The impulses in PLAY are just the tip of the Spaces iceberg and the Spaces engine is also different. It's now in beta. I think you'll be able to download a fully functioning demo.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 6, 2010)

Anyone used Reflektor yet? I agree using the GR engine sounds less than perfect, but would like to hear some real-world experiences.

I guess with Spaces I saw it as "the engine from Play, but as a standalone effect, with more impulses", priced pretty much as an impulse buy (ha ha). There seemed quite a demand for that, partly as a quick solution to integrate other products with the SO hall. Will Spaces really compete with the big boys like Lexicon / Altiverb / Waves?


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 7, 2010)

kb123 @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> I have Reflektor, Haven't really put it through its paces yet. I don't see the problem with running it in GR4, after all GR is basically a dedicated effects player and NI seem to be moving it away from guitars with the introduction of the Traktor 12 effects



Keep us posted on your thoughts!


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## Matthias King (Oct 7, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Oct 06 said:


> Not seen too much discussion on these. QL Spaces looks way more expensive than I expected from the early comments - $299. Reflektor is less than half that, and included in the Komplete bundle. I'm particularly interested in resource use / latency - the NI version is touted as being especially good here, though that's just their say-so.
> 
> Really disappointed with this Spaces price point. Sure there will be more bells and whistles than Play's own built in IR, but it's more than one of their complete Play libraries in a sale! I was thinking sub $100...


Where did you see a price quote for Spaces?


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## RiffWraith (Oct 7, 2010)

Matthias King @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> Where did you see a price quote for Spaces?



Doug Rogers on the SO forum, in a QL Spaces thread, which has now been deleted.


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## Matthias King (Oct 7, 2010)

Ah, that would explain why I couldn't find anything official over there. 

So $299 is the proposed price? To me, honestly, that doesn't seem too bad at all. Considering that Lexicon's PCM Native is roughly five times that, and Altiverb is nearly twice as much, with XL being three times as much, it seems quite reasonable to me.

Just my two cents.


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## Animus (Oct 7, 2010)

Matthias King @ Thu Oct 07 said:


> Ah, that would explain why I couldn't find anything official over there.
> 
> So $299 is the proposed price? To me, honestly, that doesn't seem too bad at all. Considering that Lexicon's PCM Native is roughly five times that, and Altiverb is nearly twice as much, with XL being three times as much, it seems quite reasonable to me.
> 
> Just my two cents.



Just get Relab LX480 Lite for $199. Great control and awesome lush spacious sound. Convolution never sounds convincing to me and is static and lifeless. It seems that I have read that most people mixing soundtracks are using Bricasti's and Lexicon's,


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 8, 2010)

It is suddenly getting crowded in early reflections land  I hope my positioning plugin will do what I expect it to do and not be too late on the scene, er... stage :D


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## andreasOL (Oct 8, 2010)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri 08 Oct said:


> It is suddenly getting crowded in early reflections land  I hope my positioning plugin will do what I expect it to do and not be too late on the scene, er... stage :D



Hi,

don't worry. I'm looking forward to your plugin and I have trust in your knowledge. I'm often struggling with positioning and creating depth. I don't need another general reverb.

- Andreas


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 8, 2010)

Depth is achieved with a good balance of early reflections and room sound. Most impulses are fundamentally flawed in the way they were taken. Also, the gear you record with is really crucial. When people say that convolution is not as good as digital, this is because convolution hasn't been explored fully yet. I started writing out a blurb about QL Spaces. I hope it doesn't sound arrogant, because it's not. I only got involved in sampling reverb, because I was having a hard time with reverb in my mixes and I wanted to improve it. It turns out my biggest problem at the time was the room I was in. Anyway, he is a bit about QLS. It's been a long experiment.



Quantum Leap Spaces
The New Standard In Convolution Reverb

QL Spaces from East West is a 24 bit true stereo convolution reverb that sets a new standard by utilizing new impulse recording techniques developed over the past six years. Full spectrum sweep tones are shot from super hi fidelity ATC speaker arrays at high volumes. These tones really excite the room and yield a natural response due to the nature of ATC SCM 100 monitors. These are 20k monitors, if you are not familiar.  A loud and flat sweep tone ensures a long, smooth, low noise, reverb tail. The speaker array sound projection angles are adjusted and positioned in the room/hall to emulate the real world sound projection properties of various instruments. So an impulse taken for a French horn was created by firing the sweep tones from the middle to left rear of the stage, backwards and slightly towards the floor. 1st violin section impulses were taken by firing a series of speakers at an angle towards the ceiling, just like a real section. A fifth speaker with the high end reduced was fired towards the floor to emulate the body of the violins. This same methodology was used to record reverbs for rock instruments in various LA studios. Because of this, Reverbs in QL Spaces have a fantastic balance of early reflections and room sound that really draws a dry instrument into the space, rather than the usual "sound plus reverb" result. It's very interesting that most of the impulses in QL Spaces sound good mixed in at almost any level. This is a testament to the balanced nature of the impulses. 

One of the things that amazed us during our research was to find that most existing impulses were taken in very simplistic ways with very clean, modern equipment. Most top engineers wouldn't record a modern filmscore, or a rock record with a pair of clean shotgun mics and a modern low noise preamplifier. They would use an arsenal of the best that Neumann, Neve, Telefunken, TG, Manley, Sennheiser, Fairchild (to name a few), have produced over the past 60 years, along with some modern gear. And that's exactly what we did with QL Spaces. Our equipment list reads like a most wanted gear list on Gearslutz. The Sony DRE S777 sampling reverb and Meitner AD converters were used to capture all impulses.  

QL Spaces has custom impulses taken over the past six years from around the globe, with a focus on the Western United States. QL Spaces includes concert halls, churches, cathedrals, caverns, rock studios including East West Studios, soundstages, forests, a swimming hall, parking garages, water tanks, a tunnel, vintage plates and custom digital reverb preset impulses taken from our favorite digital reverbs. It is a complete reverb package designed to take care of all of your reverb needs. Jack of all trades and a master of most. We invite you to compare every one of these impulses to all your current favorites. To take it all a step further, additional impulses were supplied by Ralph Kessler of masterpinguin. Ralph is responsible for the best impulses in the now discontinued Wizoo W2 and W5 reverbs. Remember the HDIR Cathedral? This impulse and dozens of others from the same venue are included in QL Spaces, along with other fantastic European venues. Ralph shares the same passion for reverb impulses that we do. His methods are a bit different, but the results are stunning and very high tech.

The final piece of the puzzle is the software the plays back the impulses. We found that the top convolution software available was loaded with excellent controls to shape, eq and general alter the sound of the loaded impulsò%ø   ê1¶%ø   ê1·%ø   ê1¸%ø   ê1¹%ø   ê1º%ø   ê1»%ø   ê1¼%ø   ê1½%ø   ê1¾%ø   ê1¿%ø   ê1À%ø   ê1Á%ø   ê1Â%ø   ê1Ã%ø   ê1Ä%ø   ê1Å%ø   ê1Æ%ø   ê1Ç%ø   ê1È%ø   ê1É%ø   ê1Ê%ø   ê1Ë%ø   ê1Ì%ø   ê1Í%ø   ê1Î%ø   ê1Ï%ø   ê1Ð%ø   ê1Ñ%ø   ê1Ò%ø   ê1Ó%ø   ê1Ô%ø   ê1Õ%ø   ê1Ö%ø   ê1×%ø   ê1Ø%ø   ê1Ù%ø   ê1Ú%ø   ê1Û%ø   ê1Ü%ø   ê1Ý%ø   ê1Þ%ø   ê1ß%ø   ê1à%ø   ê1á%ø   ê1â%ø   ê1ã%ø   ê1ä%ù   ê1å%ù   ê1æ%ù   ê1ç%ù   ê1è%ù   ê1é%ù   ê1ê%ù   ê1ë%ù   ê1ì%ù   ê1í%ù   ê1î%ù   ê1ï%ù   ê1ð%ù   ê1ñ%ù   ê1ò%ù   ê1ó%ù   ê1ô%ù   ê1õ%ù   ê1ö%ù   ê1÷%ù   ê1ø%ù   ê1ù%ù   ê1ú%ù   ê1û%ù   ê1ü%ù   ê1ý%ù   ê1þ%ù   ê1ÿ%ù   ê2 %ù   ê2%ù   ê2%ù   ê2%ù   ê2%ù   ê2%ù   ê2%ù   ê2%ù   ê2%ú   ê2	%ú   ê2
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## Hannes_F (Oct 8, 2010)

Dietz, I did not say or even dare to think I invented the principle, I only thought by me this would be logical and I should try it sometimes (so I am an inventor in my own little world maybe). But thank you for your comment, it is nice to finally understand what MIR is about. If I had ever seen a graphics of six speakers blazing into all directions this would have happened earlier :mrgreen:

Since we are here together so cuddly with all the developers, which of your engines can be used then as a vst insert? If I understood it right, MIR can only be used as a host which does probably not allow for applying it to acoustical recordings in a sequencer ... yes/no/maybe? What about QL Spaces in that regard? Thanks!


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 8, 2010)

Dietz, I have no experience with MIR and have the uò&p   êQ &p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ&p   êQ &p   êQ!&p   êQ"&p   êQ#&p   êQ$&p   êQ%&p   êQ&&p   êQ'&p   êQ(&p   êQ)&p   êQ*&p   êQ+&p   êQ,&p   êQ-&p   êQ.&p   êQ/&p   êQ0&p   êQ1&p   êQ2&p   êQ3&p   êQ4&p   êQ5&p   êQ6&p   êQ7&p   êQ8&p   êQ9&p   êQ:&p   êQ;&p   êQ<&p   êQ=&p   êQ>&p   êQ?&p   ê[email protected]&p   êQA&p   êQB&p   êQC&p   êQD&p   êQE&p   êQF&p   êQG&p   êQH&p   êQI&p   êQJ&p   êQK&p   êQL&p   êQM&p   êQN&p   êQO&p   êQP&p   êQQ&p   êQR&q   êQS&q   êQT&q   êQU&q   êQV&q   êQW&q   êQX&q   êQY&q   êQZ&q   êQ[&q   êQ\&q   êQ]&q   êQ^&q   êQ_&q   êQ`&q   êQa&q   êQb&q   êQc&q   êQd&q   êQe&q   êQf&q   êQg&q   êQh&q   êQi&q   êQj&q   êQk&q   êQl&q   êQm&q   êQn&q   êQo&q   êQp&q   êQq&q   êQr&q   êQs&q   êQt&r   êQu&r   êQv&r   êQw&r   êQx&r   êQy&r   êQz&r   êQ{&r   êQ|              ò&r   êQ~&r   êQ&r   êQ€&r   êQ&r   êQ‚&r   êQƒ&r   êQ„&r   êQ…&r   êQ†&r   êQ‡&r   êQˆ&r   êQ‰&r   êQŠ&r   êQ‹&r   êQŒ&r   êQ&r   êQŽ&r   êQ&r   êQ&r   êQ‘&r   êQ’&r   êQ“&r   êQ”&s   êQ•&s   êQ–&s   êQ—&s   ê


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## Dietz (Oct 9, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> Dietz, I did not say or even dare to think I invented the principle,



I didn't want to imply that you said this. Sorry if you got it that way.



Hannes_F @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> I only thought by me this would be logical and I should try it sometimes (so I am an inventor in my own little world maybe).



You are right: Many great inventions started with a so-called "silly idea. As a matter of fact, MIR is the result of a development that started with a few jokes between Herb Tucmandl (the founder of VSL) and me, back in 2001, if I remember correctly.



Hannes_F @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> But thank you for your comment, it is nice to finally understand what MIR is about. If I had ever seen a graphics of six speakers blazing into all directions this would have happened earlier :mrgreen:



Point taken - but believe it or not, the images of the remote-controlled rotating speaker were quite prominent in all MIR-videos ever published. An edit of the most infamous one (... it contains pictures of me, too (o) ) is still online on www.viennamir.com : Just start the "MIR Background Info"-video and watch out what happens around 40% of the total playing time. 8-)

PS: No, the speakers aren't rotating _while_ recording IRs 



Hannes_F @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> Since we are here together so cuddly with all the developers, which of your engines can be used then as a vst insert? If I understood it right, MIR can only be used as a host which does probably not allow for applying it to acoustical recordings in a sequencer ... yes/no/maybe? What about QL Spaces in that regard? Thanks!



The long answer short: Right now, MIR is a host for VSTi's. Putting an engine that does the equivalent of thousands of convolutions in (close to) real-time on top of a DAW on the same machine was a ridiculous thought even two years ago.

But things have changed quickly, that's why MIR Pro is in the make. This new approach is based on the same underlying ideas, but it tries to integrate as closely as possible into any existing DAW. It will allow for the use of audio streams within MIR (although with less "cleverness" as MIR can't rely on individualized instrument profiles in these cases). In the end, it should be perceived as a natural, intuitive and holistic mixing front end. 

... oh, yes, it will do reverb, too, :mrgreen: but that's not MIR's only goal. Reverb just "happens", like in any real room. It's about space.


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## Dietz (Oct 9, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> Dietz, I have no experience with MIR [...]



Nick, feel invited to have a 30-day demo of MIR! It's available online. All you need is a eLicenser and a modern PC. AFAIK, all compatibility issues between PLAY, VEP and MIR are history 



Nick Phoenix @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> I'm wondering how you dealt with what I call the density overload problem? In my tests mixing more than 2 impulses starts to result in an overly dense impulse. It's kind of like playing chords with a six French horn patch. It sounds a bit thick and artificial. [...].



Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. The solution to this problem is proprietary, but not astonishingly it's based on quite "ordinary" acoustical principles. 

... it helps a lot that MIR can rely on the same number of IRs, independently from an instrument's type, its position on stage, its size, and the direction it is heading to.

The other important part is a based on the profound knowledge of the instrument's Directivity Profile. There's so much published data available that's simply wrong, just because the measurement methods used were not suitable, that's why we had to do our own research in this respect. 

****

So ... enough off-topic talk, back to QL Spaces / NI Reflektor! 

Kind regards,


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## germancomponist (Oct 9, 2010)

Very interesting news. Maybe I will learn to like convolution reverbs in the future. :mrgreen:

BTW, a little bit oot, but did you know this? 

1http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/ircam_spat

Watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBUYHkTGA9U

2http://www.csl.sony.fr/MusicSpace/


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 9, 2010)

Interesting new developments!

With a background in perception research, I am taking a completely different approach. I still don't believe that you can really realistically sample spaces with sine sweeps, speakers, microphones, etc. Too many components involved that all will add their color to the deconvoluted IRs. And then we have the fact that sweep emitting speakers can never emulate the spatial emitting patterns of real instruments. So, as psychologist, I am more in favor of tricking the sensory and perception systems (which are extremely complex and subtle). High end algorithmic reverbs still sound better than Altiverbs with "real spaces", because they take into account how how our perception systems work. So, for my positioning plugin I am researching synthetic approaches. But I will not exclude that it will/may also work with "stage packs"  based on real spaces.


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## germancomponist (Oct 9, 2010)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> ... High end algorithmic reverbs still sound better than Altiverbs with "real spaces", because they take into account how how our perception systems work. ...


...what I always said because my ears always told me. o/~ 

Peter, I can`t wait to listen to the results from your new tool and also from Nick`s.

Gunther


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## jleckie (Oct 9, 2010)

I cant wait for QL spaces! Bring it on baby!


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 9, 2010)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> Interesting new developments!
> 
> With a background in perception research, I am taking a completely different approach. I still don't believe that you can really realistically sample spaces with sine sweeps, speakers, microphones, etc. Too many components involved that all will add their color to the deconvoluted IRs. And then we have the fact that sweep emitting speakers can never emulate the spatial emitting patterns of real instruments. So, as psychologist, I am more in favor of tricking the sensory and perception systems (which are extremely complex and subtle). High end algorithmic reverbs still sound better than Altiverbs with "real spaces", because they take into account how how our perception systems work. So, for my positioning plugin I am researching synthetic approaches. But I will not exclude that it will/may also work with "stage packs"  based on real spaces.




Covolution is flawed technology, as is algorithmic reverb. HOWEVER, what Ive been trying to say is, reverb impulses have rarely been done correctly and even then, the equipment used is not really the right stuff. Most Altiverb impulses are not very good. Altiverb software also affects the sound quality in a negative way. Waves is the same. Logic space designer has better sound quality, but the impulses are not good. This reminds of the old sampled piano discussions that used to take place. Everybody talked about nothing but sympathetic resonance. It turned out that what everybody was really craving was simply resonance, that was missing because of the way thing were micd.


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## germancomponist (Oct 9, 2010)

I can`t wait to listen to good examples..... .


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## Dan Mott (Oct 9, 2010)

This is going to be great. I hope I can try a demo. The EW impulses were always my favourite sounding reverbs compared to anything else I've used.


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## Dietz (Oct 10, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> [...] The biggest flaw with convolution is that it's a static snapshot. No amount of vintage gearslut recording gear will change that. Real spaces breathe non-linearly.


The biggest flaw actually is to use only _one_ snapshot. That's much like recording the middle C of a grand piano with one velocity, stretching this sample across 88 keys and playing Chopin etudes with it. :-P ... of course we would use multi-samples for that.

The same is true for sampled room. Multisampled rooms are like the transition from photography to movies (and from B/W to color). There's no static, because you don't "play" the same sample (i.e. impulse response) over and over again.

... algorithmic reverbs are a bit like CG in this context, if you ask me. "Bigger than life", no doubt, but also "too good to be true", if you get my drift.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 10, 2010)

Great explanation and analogy, Dietz!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 10, 2010)

Personally I think combining an IR with an algorhythmic verb sounds best, however real or unreal it sounds to anyone.

These days I open an Altiverb (actually Space Designer until Altiverb goes 64 bit) with a a Todd AO IR with mostly early reflections and a UAD EMT Plate 140 or 250 and send the strings and winds to them in varying amounts until when I listen to playback it sounds good. If I am having trouble getting definition I will do the same process for brass with and percussion but with different instances, but generally I do not have to unless the music is very dense so I send them to the same verbs.

I never stop to assess how "real" it sounds because for me, if it sounds good, it is good. 

It is for this reason that Lexicons have been so prized for years by engineers. Few would argue that their rooms, halls, etc. were particularly realistic but people just liked the sound.

The next version of Alitverb apparently will provide internal mixing of IR and algo verb.

BTW, the EMT plates on the UAD cards sound gorgeous IMHO. And I am starting to warm to Peter's Bricasti IRs. They are a little more transparent than the Todd AO.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 10, 2010)

If you think about it, ALL reverb is flawed for different reasons, and to some degree. While the conversation will rage on forever regarding what is "the correct way" to do it, it really comes down to the quality of the reverb, and how it is applied. Simply saying "oh, this type of reverb is better" may or may not be true, and is too general a statement. As one example, a 480L will beat the daylights out of any Altiverb impulse, and any Altiverb impulse will beat the daylights out of any cheap-algo reverb. Ok, that's two examples...:lol:

Cheers.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2010)

Dietz @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Animus @ Sun Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > [...] The biggest flaw with convolution is that it's a static snapshot. No amount of vintage gearslut recording gear will change that. Real spaces breathe non-linearly.
> ...



What a great explanation and analogy, Dietz!

Some month ago I told exactly this in a german forum and there they all had attacked me, 
they called me as an esotheric guy who has no idea about convolution reverbs. e.t.c. ... . :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Dan Mott (Oct 10, 2010)

I think I'm the only one that doesn't like Altiverb that much. 

I'm interested to know the final features and flexibility of QL Spaces.


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## Animus (Oct 10, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> The thing is, most people have no experience with Vienna's high end convolution, so saying a 480 beats the daylights out of it, if you haven't compared, is not helpful. me saying Spaces is better than MIR is also not based on any real comparison. The 480 does not beat the daylights out of my impulses. I have compared them. The 480 is good for that extra sheen or space to add to the whole mix. It does not emulate a realistic concert hall that well. Altiverb does that, but it all sounds very lo res. Spaces right now is static convolution, but it is a step up from Altiverb. The gear does make a difference, just like it does when you record music. HS sounds good because of the gear. And that's pretty much the same gear I used for Spaces. That along with the more advanced methods results in better impulses.



Aren't movie soundtracks bigger than life usually though? When I hear music in film I usually don't think concert hall or wonder what concert hall it was recorded in. What does Shawn Murphy have to say on that matter? I have always assumed and read that all the big boys in score recording are using classic boxes such as the 480 or even the newer Bricasti in post. So they would record on a excellent scoring stage much like HS was recorded but add digital reverb for the final secret sauce.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 10, 2010)

Lexicon PCM Native....... I would love to compare QL Spaces with, even though those two are very different.


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## Animus (Oct 10, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Lexicon PCM Native....... I would love to compare QL Spaces with, even though those two are very different.



I have the Lexicon PCM's and they are great. I am actually really into Relab LX480 Lite right now though. Really awesome. The impulses that come wit PLAY were cool but I still found myself keeping those off in the end and running the strings through some Lexi.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 10, 2010)

Shawn ues Altiverb. Many engineers use digital because it is good if you already have a big soundstage sound and just need some controllable wash. The impulses and engine in PLAY are not the same as Spaces.


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## Animus (Oct 10, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> Shawn ues Altiverb. Many engineers use digital because it is good if you already have a big soundstage sound and just need some controllable wash. The impulses and engine in PLAY are not the same as Spaces.



Yeah, I found the soundstage of HS to be awesome. I don't feel the need to run it through impulses ER's like I usually do with the really dry VSL stuff.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 10, 2010)

I forgot to mention that those who need to tweak will not like Spaces. They are designed as real world presets and you can't do much to them.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 10, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 10 said:


> I forgot to mention that those who need to tweak will not like Spaces. They are designed as real world presets and you can't do much to them.



When are you releasing it?


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## a.leung (Oct 10, 2010)

Next month:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... post632356


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 11, 2010)

Still no-one tried Reflektor?


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 11, 2010)

Sorry to be a stuck record, but this seems really bizarre if no-one has even TRIED Reflektor. One of the biggest companies in the business, a hundred bucks or bundled with Komplete, ultra low latency, new IRs from impressive-sounding sorts and a redeveloped engine... everyone is pining for QL Spaces (and why not I guess), but this is here right now and... I mean, NO-ONE has tried Reflektor?!!!!


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## Hannes_F (Oct 12, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> I mean, NO-ONE has tried Reflektor?!!!!



you are right, it is a little funny. But tbh this Reflektor thing comes over to me like the third extraction of what is already there ... and the real spaces IRs have been taken by a company that has never offered real room IRs before and displays no signs of pride about this project on their website. There might be the Tonmeister of the Berlin Philharmoniker behind it or a hack, who knows, but if somebody that takes an IR has no real life experience in mic'ing an orchestra I am sceptical nowadays (remember the ToddAO IRs are a class of their own ... because they are NOT taken by sounddesign guys but by orchestra recording guys, and with all their knowledge and equipment). I might be wrong but I could not even find the words "true stereo" in the manual. so why blow 100 if QL spaces is ante portas for 300?

This may be totally unfair towards the product and I might change my mind if I tried it once but you seemed to ask why there is little rap here about it and I think this is why. However NI has a history of entering a market with a first product and then developing it quite nicely over the years (think Kontakt, Traktor), so I will surely watch it.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 12, 2010)

Fair points, Hannes. Another factor, of course, is that some people use their own IRs. I'll confess that only yesterday for the first time was I playing with the ones that come with LASS - sound really good to me. If the Reflektor engine is stable and truly low latency, that alone is worth knowing... even if all their IRs turn out to be hopeless!


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## Hannes_F (Oct 12, 2010)

... but we don't even know whether it can load TrueStereo IRs, do we?

If you are looking for a zero latency engine then LiquidSonics Reverberate Core might be the ticket. It is only 30 GBP AND you can demo it

http://www.liquidsonics.com/software.htm (scroll down the page)

Also check Reverberate LE with your LASS IRs, if that works it is free even.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 12, 2010)

Hannes, you're the man! Cheers


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## ErnestCholakis (Oct 12, 2010)

> I'm wondering how you dealt with what I call the density overload problem? In my tests mixing more than 2 impulses starts to result in an overly dense impulse. It's kind of like playing chords with a six French horn patch. It sounds a bit thick and artificial. I find that impulses are incredibly susceptible to loss of imaging and quality.



Nick 

Before mixing RI's you would have to totally remove the dry signal component when developing RI's and this is more in the realm of a DSP challenge because no off the shelf plugin can solve this. The standard sweep tone or starters pistol approach regardless of the quality of the recording chain cannot help totally remove all the dry signal component in a RI. If you develop an approach to remove the dry component in the RI then it should be possible to mix RI's without an overly dense impulse. 

All of Numerical Sound RI's have been optimized for convolution and do not have any vestiges of the dry signal in any of the RI's. In FORTI and SERTI any combination of ER's and Tails outputs can me mixed without adversely affecting the ambience's properties. This is not an accident there waveforms had to be analyzed and optimized to achieve this. But like I stated above it really is a DSP problem/challenge not a recording issue. 

Ernest Cholakis
Numerical Sound/ProAudioVault
www.numericalsound.com
www.proaudiovault.com


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 12, 2010)

Ernest, This makes good sense. I'm lucky that I use the Sony dre s777 and it takes care of all of this. I still find that stacking too many impulses sounds too dense.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 13, 2010)

kb123 @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Reflektor doesn't support true stereo



Doesn't look like it, it can import a quad signal but then only had reverb in one channel (similar to what SD does sometimes if you just drag in a quad file instead of converting it first).



Hannes_F @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> If you are looking for a zero latency engine then LiquidSonics Reverberate Core might be the ticket.



Looks like a great plugin, unfortunately no 64 bit version yet but it sounds like they're trying to make that happen.

Speaking of, will Spaces be 64 bit for both platforms at release?


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## RiffWraith (Oct 13, 2010)

Good article here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/a ... reverb.htm

It may be over 4 years old, but much of the info is still valid.

Cheers.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 13, 2010)

Dietz @ Sat Oct 09 said:


> If I understood it right, MIR can only be used as a host which does probably not allow for applying it to acoustical recordings in a sequencer ... yes/no/maybe? What about QL Spaces in that regard? Thanks!



The long answer short: Right now, MIR is a host for VSTi's. Putting an engine that does the equivalent of thousands of convolutions in (close to) real-time on top of a DAW on the same machine was a ridiculous thought even two years ago.

But things have changed quickly, that's why MIR Pro is in the make. [/quote]

Dietz,
wouldn't it possible to funnel audio in the existing version of MIR SE with a virtual audio cable or something? I am asking because I still shyed away from upgrading to Win 7, so testing this is currently no option for me. Thanks.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 13, 2010)

Mike, If you need to run 400 instances of Spaces for your latest farm animal sing along tape, you will have to wait for the 64 bit Mac version, due in 2016.


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## germancomponist (Oct 13, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Mike, If you need to run 400 instances of Spaces for your latest farm animal sing along tape, you will have to wait for the 64 bit Mac version, due in 2016.



But then in 65 bit... :mrgreen:


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 13, 2010)

Nick, you really need to get past the paranoia and quit assuming that every question about a product is a personal attack.

Obviously, 64 bit isn't necessary for a reverb plugin.

But with apps like Logic, if you're running the app in 64 bit for OTHER plugins, any 32 bit plugs need to run in the bit bridge, which has stability issues. I assume most Logic users would like to run all plugins as 64 bit and avoid the bridge completely. If anyone else here thinks the question is unreasonable or that nobody would have any interest in that bit of information, please let me know.

So any chance of answering the question?


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## Animus (Oct 13, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Mike, If you need to run 400 instances of Spaces for your latest farm animal sing along tape, you will have to wait for the 64 bit Mac version, due in 2016.



hehe nice

Mike just got ooooowwWWWWWNNNNeeeeNND! Betta step down beayaatach!


:D


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 13, 2010)

Animus @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Mike just got ooooowwWWWWWNNNNeeeeNND! Betta step down beayaatach!



Did you miss the reason I asked?

Or have you not used Logic with the 32 bit bridge and seen firsthand how unreliable it is?


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 13, 2010)

You are right Mike. I get all warm and fuzzy when I read your posts. thanks for all your support. Best wishes, Nick


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 13, 2010)

So you're really not going to answer a simple technical question about an upcoming product? Really?


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 13, 2010)

It's 64 bit, unless you live in Chicago, where the mayor capped everything at 48 bit.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks for the info.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 13, 2010)

You are so welcome Mike. For those that are actually interested in Spaces, it is the same as PLAY and will not be 64 bit on the MAC until we get 64 bit copy protection. It will be 64 bit on the PC at release.


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## Animus (Oct 13, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Animus @ Wed Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike just got ooooowwWWWWWNNNNeeeeNND! Betta step down beayaatach!
> ...



I know Mike. That was pretty funny from The Phoenix you have to admit.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 13, 2010)

No doubt.


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## germancomponist (Oct 13, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Nick,
> I am trying to think along, maybe it makes some sense for you. If not, feel free to ignore. My question would be: Are you adding the reverb signal to the dry signal or is the entire signal run through the IR?
> 
> If you have the time let me explain why I am asking. I personally think (based on my own tests and methods) that even the dry part of the signal in a natural recording is formed by travelling through several meters of air. After all this is a mass phenomenon with billions of air molecules involved. Plus in real life there is an interference with the floor.
> ...



Interesting questions, Hannes.


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## Dietz (Oct 14, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Dietz,
> wouldn't it possible to funnel audio in the existing version of MIR SE with a virtual audio cable or something? I am asking because I still shyed away from upgrading to Win 7, so testing this is currently no option for me. Thanks.



Like I said before - the upcoming Vienna MIR Pro will be able to use _any_ audio signal as source, directly from an audio track of your DAW. Of course, the MIR engine won't be able to rely on individual Directivity Profiles in that cases (as the signals are "unknown" to MIR, unlike Vienna Instruments), but you will still be able to achieve impressing results on behalf of the available General Purpose profiles.

BTW - Win7 is most likely the best OS I've worked with, so far. 8-)

Kind regards,


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## Animus (Oct 14, 2010)

Dietz @ Thu Oct 14 said:


> Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Dietz,
> > wouldn't it possible to funnel audio in the existing version of MIR SE with a virtual audio cable or something? I am asking because I still shyed away from upgrading to Win 7, so testing this is currently no option for me. Thanks.



Like I said before - the upcoming Vienna MIR Pro will be able to use _any_ audio signal as source, directly from an audio track of your DAW. Of course, the MIR engine won't be able to rely on individual Directivity Profiles in that cases (as the signals are "unknown" to MIR, unlike Vienna Instruments), but you will still be able to achieve impressing results on behalf of the available General Purpose profiles.

BTW - Win7 is most likely the best OS I've worked with, so far. 8-)

Kind regards,ò+À   ë”j+À   ë”k+À   ë”l+À   ë”m+À   ë”n+À   ë”o+À   ë”p+À   ë”q+À   ë”r+À   ë”s+À   ë”t+À   ë”u+À   ë”v+À


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 14, 2010)

Dietz @ Thu Oct 14 said:


> Where did you get the 1500,- from? Last time I looked, Vienna MIR was 795,- Euro, and Vienna MIR SE only a humble 395,-.
> 
> -> www.viennamir.com
> 
> ... BTW - ever looked up what the two channels of a Sony DRE777 Sampling Reverb would have cost you .... ?




MIR is pretty reasonable considering what it does. I paid about $12k for my Sony DRE S 777 with true stereo expansion.


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## Dietz (Oct 15, 2010)

I envy you for that machine!


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## LiquidSonics (Oct 17, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > If you are looking for a zero latency engine then LiquidSonics Reverberate Core might be the ticket.
> ...


Reverberate and Reverberate Core now have a Mac and PC 64-bit VST. In hosts like Reaper where the bridge tends to slow the GUI down considerably this really boosts performance. I realise a Mac 64-bit AU is probably in higher demand but the VST had to be done first for technical reasons. Work is beginning on the 64-bit AU, though no release timeframe is yet available.


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## rabiang (Oct 17, 2010)

i am in the marked for a convo reverb these days and dropped considering reflektor when i read i need to run it inside another program (guitar rig).

voxengo has pristine space, but its only 32-bit (i use reaper now and try to get mostly 64-bit plugs). i did test it though, and it works well, using around 3-5% of the cpu when bridged. (i7 920 at 3,0Ghz)

I also tried fx-chains in reaper that emulates true stereo and ran M7 IR's through it. works well, but takes 3-5% cpu too.

so far the winner is reverberate (in my price range). 64-bit, and only takes 1-2% cpu. 

really looking forward to the new version of mir and ql spaces though.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 18, 2010)

LiquidSonics @ Sun Oct 17 said:


> Reverberate and Reverberate Core now have a Mac and PC 64-bit VST. In hosts like Reaper where the bridge tends to slow the GUI down considerably this really boosts performance. I realise a Mac 64-bit AU is probably in higher demand but the VST had to be done first for technical reasons. Work is beginning on the 64-bit AU, though no release timeframe is yet available.



Thanks for the update, I'll likely be getting it as soon as the 64 bit AU is released.


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