# Which synth to invest in?



## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

I want to invest in a proper synth. I don't want to choose the wrong one based on a cool looking UI or something like that. I have UVI Falcon, not the most intuitive synth on the planet. A bit tidious for a beginner. Budget is around $200, so we can rule out Omnisphere.


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## macmac (Sep 21, 2022)

What kind of music do you make? Are you a preset user or create your own (sound design)?


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## jblongz (Sep 21, 2022)

Sylenth to me is the best classic synth under $200, but has no sample import. Sound quality cannot be denied as it provided countless hits. I’m still amazed by what comes out of it, while having less effects than most newer synths. Cost about $140

Pigments 3 is the most versatile at $200 with vast sound design options, a built-in preset store, built-in tutorial, and sample import options.

Zebra 2 by U-HE is discussed extensively here about its depth of sound design and quality. If you like to dive deep into design, this is the one for $200


Analog Lab V gets my next vote for a preset driven collection of synths. If you don’t need sound design functions and prefer typical tweaking of predetermined macros. This is the way to go for $200


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## styphonthal (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I want to invest in a proper synth. I don't want to choose the wrong one based on a cool looking UI or something like that. I have UVI Falcon, not the most intuitive synth on the planet. A bit tidious for a beginner. Budget is around $200, so we can rule out Omnisphere.


Not to be "that guy", but softsynths aren't really an investment, they are the opposite of such. You are pretty much guaranteed to lose money, and in quite a few cases the initial cost will be impossible to recover as new versions and changes are made. 

That being said, I think UVI falcon is one of the best softsynths out there. It can pretty much do anything: Subtractive, FM, sample, wavetable Granular synthesis. There are tons of expansions for it. Problem is it can be overwhelming. 

If you want to go more simple but still very flexible I would go with one of the classics: Serum, Synleth. Another option, but more limiting, is getting one of the Arturia softsynths. 

Pigments is amazing, but can be as confusing as UVI falcon.


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## Paj (Sep 21, 2022)

. . . and by "proper" you mean . . .?

Paj
8^?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

No synth will be more “proper” than Falcon. Any synth will take time. I remember you asking a question just like this recently and you were confident to put in “the time” and “learn synthesis”. I’d argue to just stick with that plan. If you’d buy ZebraHZ, Phase Plant or Pigments now, you’d be in for a very similar journey anyway. Learning takes time. There are no shortcuts. Falcon is as proper a synth as any other one.


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

I understand I have to choose my word wisely around here.

Not gonna argue around the word "invest". As some would say, maybe it was the right thing to say or the wrong one, both good be good words, I don't know. 

Didn't know I had to elaborate the word "proper" either.

Shape and form, sound design. Not that Falcon isn't a "proper" synth, neither have I said it isn't. It's the layout, it isn't in my opinion very intuitive. It's extremely versateile I know that much. But I don't like that "50 tabs" UI when I prefer a.... I was about to say "one page layout" 🙈

Let's just say if Falcon would be the top choice. What would be the runner up in your opinion?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

I'd try Pigments


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I'd try Pigments


Thank you 😊


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I understand I have to choose my word wisely around here.


Always  - but in this case (as annoying as it may seem) I do understand why people react the way they do. In my view they are really just trying to help you, by pointing out that learning to program (and like!) a new synth and its workflow is usually just a matter of spending time and putting in the effort.

That said, Pigments has a fun UI and sounds good. Sometimes great. I’d still give Falcon the edge, but a lot (if not all) of sentiments like that is totally subjective and personal.


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> No synth will be more “proper” than Falcon. Any synth will take time. I remember you asking a question just like this recently and you were confident to put in “the time” and “learn synthesis”. I’d argue to just stick with that plan. If you’d buy ZebraHZ, Phase Plant or Pigments now, you’d be in for a very similar journey anyway. Learning takes time. There are no shortcuts. Falcon is as proper a synth as any other one.


I'm still learning, never stopped. The plan is still the same, just want to advance from Arturia Mini_V 😉


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

Ha. So you’ve mastered the Mini


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## Tusker (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Let's just say if Falcon would be the top choice. What would be the runner up in your opinion?


I gather the term "investment" is about the time investment and the learning curve, which means you could look at Falcon as one branch of a tree, and you need another branch, a complementary synth? Something which sounds good, sits on one page and builds your confidence as you learn?

One strategy would be to get a simpler subtractive synth, like Arturia's Jupiter or Gforce's OB-E.

Quite a different strategy could be to set up a template in Falcon which emulates such a simpler synth, and use only that template until you can zip around the interface with confidence. Maybe like the Mini but with a few more bells and whistles? Falcon can help you progress in little steps...


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Ha. So you’ve mastered the Mini


Well....


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

Tusker said:


> I gather the term "investment" is about the time investment and the learning curve, which means you could look at Falcon as one branch of a tree, and you need another branch, a complementary synth? Something which sounds good, sits on one page and builds your confidence as you learn?
> 
> One strategy would be to get a simpler subtractive synth, like Arturia's Jupiter or Gforce's OB-E.
> 
> Quite a different strategy could be to set up a template in Falcon which emulates such a simpler synth, and use only that template until you can zip around the interface with confidence. Maybe like the Mini but with a few more bells and whistles? Falcon can help you progress in little steps...


That's another way to see it and really never thought about that. I have one that I made, though it was watching a how-to tutorial. I both understood it and enjoyed it. Kinda cool actually doing something I thought qasn't possible. But that only shows how little I know.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 21, 2022)

Vengeance sound avenger…. have you looked into that one?

I thinks it’s fairly straightforward in terms of ui and overview, yet with much depth of option if you wish, and a very good sound…and fits your budget ( ok, exceeds it by €10,- but then wait for a sale…Black Friday is coming)


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

Good one. Also on sale over at PB. In that same domain: Parawave Rapid. Simple interface, great sound but somehow less revered on this particular forum. OP could also check out Serum.


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## ed buller (Sep 21, 2022)

IMHO there is no other than ZebraHZ

best

e


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## Teksonik (Sep 21, 2022)

Synapse Audio DUNE 3:

DUNE 3


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

It really depends what you're looking for... in any case, the best way to learn is to pick one synth, any synth, and stick with it exclusively for a couple of months.

Vital is super easy to use and everything is animated so you'll never get lost. Oh and it's free.

Pigments is another beginner-friendly synth which has tons of possibilities. Don't buy it at full price. It's very common to find it at 50% off or check Knobcloud for even lower prices.

Hive is another great synth to get started. It's generally marketed for EDM but it's just a great subtractive synth with a couple of tricks under its sleeve.

If you have your mind set into doing cinematic stuff, Zebra is a great synth. Although maybe not the easiest to get started since there is no visual feedback.

Regarding Falcon... well I didn't love using it either so I completely sympathize with you


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## JimDiGritz (Sep 21, 2022)

If I wasn't a terrible hypocrite I would suggest investing $0 and 6 months on VITAL and then figuring out where to go after that...


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## Teksonik (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Vital is super easy to use and everything is animated so you'll never get lost. Oh and it's free.


Just to set the record straight Vital is not free. There is a free level, but to support the developer you should buy at least the Plus version which is only $25. The Pro version is only $80 and there is a subscription plan as well.


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

Teksonik said:


> Just to set the record straight Vital is not free. There is a free level, but to support the developer you should buy at least the Plus version which is only $25. The Pro version is only $80 and there is a subscription plan as well.


Not sure what you're arguing here but Vital, the synth engine, is 100% absolutely free and open source (source code is on Github). The paid plans only give you access to more content.

If one should support a developer or not, that is a very personal decision. I did opt for one of the paid plans btw even though I barely use Vital myself.


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## Teksonik (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Not sure what you're arguing here but Vital, the synth engine, is 100% absolutely free and open source (source code is on Github). The paid plans only give you access to more content.
> 
> If one should support a developer or not, that is a very personal decision. I did opt for one of the paid plans btw even though I barely use Vital myself.


I'm not arguing anything. I'm simply pointing out that Vital is not completely free despite the code being open source and the fact that there is a free level.

Surge is freeware. Vital is payware with a free level. That's the difference.

The biggest mistake Matt made was setting a free level. It should have been fully payware from the beginning.


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## GregSilver (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Vital is super easy to use and everything is animated so you'll never get lost. Oh and it's free.


This. You don't have to spend a Penny and have a full fledged synth to start from until you know exactly what you want. I din't like Falcon either so i know pretty exactly what you mean. Vital is easy to use, easy on the eyes and sounds great. There are also tons of tutorials online (and if these aren't enough just follow the even more tons of Serum tutorials).


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## GregSilver (Sep 21, 2022)

Teksonik said:


> I'm simply pointing out that Vital is not completely free


It is. There are NO limitations, only missing wavetables and presets.


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

KVR is leaking 😂


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## RogiervG (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Let's just say if Falcon would be the top choice. What would be the runner up in your opinion?


as for type of what falcon is: heavy duty workstation synth/sample mangler:
halion is direct competitor to falcon in features and such. (which is massive)
I would say halion even has two big advantages over falcon: you can create your own synths or sample libraries and sell them (including your own gui) or give them away for free. (no need for others to have full halion, they can use the free halion player)
and halion is a full sampler, not only player (where you need to import audio), you can actually record in it directly.
However, the price is above 200, so yeah there is that little negative thing.
(oh and the gui is also, cluttered. I guess it comes with the territory for these workstations)

It's often forgotten about, or underrated. but it's a powerhouse of a workstation.
Steinberg should do more marketing on it.. way more.

Those who just mention soft synths not "workstation synths/sample manipulator all in one" software, don't understand what falcon is (the idea behind the product/goal), and therefor also not know what the direct competitor(s), i can only find one (unless you also count Reaktor in), are.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

ZebraHZ, always


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Although lately I’ve been falling in love with Dune 3, especially the Kevin Schroeder soundsets, it’s an incredible sounding synth


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## Teksonik (Sep 21, 2022)

GregSilver said:


> It is. There are NO limitations, only missing wavetables and presets.


No it's not. Missing content and TTWT limitations are not present in the Pro version. If you use the free or plus versions you're still going to get the old version. Those who purchased the Pro version have access to bug fix versions.

For example if you have the free or plus Windows version 1.0.8, try this....Init a patch, set the LFO X/Y Grid to 16-12 and close the GUI. 

Reopen the GUI. What happens? The Grid is reset to 8-1 every time. That's just one of the bugs that have been present in Vital for over 18 months. 

I purchased the Plus early access version and I still don't have access to the beta versions which means I still have those 18 month old bugs. That's why I've stopped using Vital. Nice synth but the pace of development is too slow. 

So if you want to suggest a truly freeware synth that does not have a paid level and everyone gets the same version then suggest Surge. In many ways it's a much more capable synth.


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## Teksonik (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Although lately I’ve been falling in love with Dune 3, especially the Kevin Schroeder soundsets, it’s an incredible sounding synth


DUNE 3 is by far the best sounding synth I've ever owned, hardware or software which is why I suggested it to the OP but as always "try the demo" is the best advice.

Kevin is a truly gifted sound designer. 

DUNE 3 can be as simple as you wish and can also make some incredibly complex sounds. There is plenty of room to grow. 

I've made hundreds and hundreds of patches for it and I've still never gotten bored.


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## GregSilver (Sep 21, 2022)

Teksonik said:


> So if you want to suggest a truly freeware synth that does not have a paid level and everyone gets the same version then suggest Surge. In many ways it's a much more capable synth.


you are right and i am in peace. 

@OP don't get irritated. Give Vital a try and call it whatever you want, it's great.


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Good one. Also on sale over at PB. In that same domain: Parawave Rapid. Simple interface, great sound but somehow less revered on this particular forum. OP could also check out Serum.


Totally Iron carpet here. PB?

Now it's getting complicated here for a guy with som serious decision refusal!

Wondered when somebody would bring up Serum. But come to think about it Pigments can be demoed.


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

GregSilver said:


> you are right and i am in peace.
> 
> @OP don't get irritated. Give Vital a try and call it whatever you want, it's great.


As long it's not Presonus MaiTai


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Teksonik said:


> DUNE 3 is by far the best sounding synth I've ever owned, hardware or software which is why I suggested it to the OP but as always "try the demo" is the best advice.
> 
> Kevin is a truly gifted sound designer.
> 
> ...



Agreed, I love the ZebraHZ workflow the most but Dune definitely sounds the best to me, Synapse Audio truly has the best DSP in the industry. Dune 3 is the best digital/virtual analog sounding synth, The Legend is the best sounding Moog emulation, I haven’t tried Obsession yet but I’ve only heard about how incredible it is as well so it’s next on my list. The perfect synth for me would be the layout and workflow of Zebra with the sound and DSP of Dune, I would be in synth heaven


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 21, 2022)

Pretty much the same as what Pier said 

From what I've read, Falcon is one of THE synths to get (Omnisphere alternative).

Vital is an easy one to recommend because you don't have to pay anything - why NOT get it? The UI is quite good, too, and I think supports learning better than most. Pigments has a good UI, but... and this is just me... I find the sound totally boring for some reason - more than I think any other softsynth I've ever tried. I sold my copy.

Hive 2 is a concentrated dose of Zebra with a few things Zebra 2 lacks. I prefer it over Dune, etc., personally. I think the oscillators sound better (I sold all my Synapse Audio synths as I didn't really think they sounded the best and I never ended up using them vs others). Dune has more features, but are they features you want/need? Zebra 2 will be another stretch to learn and use from what I've gathered - I have no interest in it, but it's very popular with modern film/tv composers for reasons.

If you want an analog sound and don't care about specifics (e.g., Prophet, Oberheim, Roland, etc.) then it's hard to beat Diva for that. It can go pretty deep on sound design without being overwhelming, and it takes to added FX quite nicely. If you want a beautiful, classic polyphonic analog sound with a very simple interface, I've not yet found something easier than Model 84 from Softube (I love it). However, if you want perhaps the best sounding analog emulation on the market as of now that ALSO has a few more sound design options, you should check out OB-E v2 (at the very least the monosynth SEM is worth every $).

DiscoveryPro (often on sale) has become a favorite of mine, and has multiple layers available that opens the door to some deep sound design. A bit of a CPU hog, though. Like Pigments. I love this synth for pads.

Overall, I'm more into analog and analog emulations than digital, though I'm demoing Generate.

The best approach is to not jump into buying one, but to do demos for weeks on end. Create a short list of 3-5 and just start hammering away at them.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Agreed, I love the ZebraHZ workflow the most but Dune definitely sounds the best to me, Synapse Audio truly has the best DSP in the industry. Dune 3 is the best digital/virtual analog sounding synth, The Legend is the best sounding Moog emulation, I haven’t tried Obsession yet but I’ve only heard about how incredible it is as well so it’s next on my list. The perfect synth for me would be the layout and workflow of Zebra with the sound and DSP of Dune, I would be in synth heaven


Yes, Synapse are great and absolutely top tier. I recently got The Legend and Obsession as rack extensions for Reason 12 (they gave me the VST versions free afterwards), and they rock. Immediately decided to get their Reason-only Synapse as well, and honestly… they’re all amazing synths. Now, Kenneth, I know you have a very orderly world view and think in terms there being “bests” of things. I don’t. So in my world there is no such thing as a best synth. But I do concur that Dune 3 may just be the synth our OP is looking for.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> though I'm demoing Generate.


You consider that a digital synth? It mostly uses very analog Buchla module paradigms.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> You consider that a digital synth? It mostly uses very analog Buchla module paradigms.


At the moment  I just downloaded it last night!
Perhaps it's an analog spirit with a digital face.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> At the moment  I just downloaded it last night!
> Perhaps it's an analog spirit with a digital face.


Gotcha. It does not have a skeumorphic interface, and that’s an understatement  / I was just checking because I always enjoy your take on all things synths and value your posts about it highly.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Yes, Synapse are great and absolutely top tier. I recently got The Legend and Obsession as rack extensions for Reason 12 (they gave me the VST versions free afterwards), and they rock. Immediately decided to get their Reason-only Synapse as well, and honestly… they’re all amazing synths. Now, Kenneth, I know you have a very orderly world view and think in terms they’re being “bests” of things. I don’t. But I do concur that Dune 3 may just be the synth our OP is looking for.



You’re not wrong at all, I always deal in absolutes, I’m the most stubborn person most people will ever meet but it makes my life easier lol. I think OP should at least try out Dune 3, I confident he would be convinced very quickly, I know I was!!


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> You’re not wrong at all, I always deal in absolutes, I’m the most stubborn person most people will ever meet but it makes my life easier lol. I think OP should at least try out Dune 3, I confident he would be convinced very quickly, I know I was!!


I can take it from you, because you’re a nice person AND have a great taste. I mean, the best taste.


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> You’re not wrong at all, I always deal in absolutes, I’m the most stubborn person most people will ever meet but it makes my life easier lol


They say youth is wasted on the young


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> They say youth is wasted on the young



Probably true, I’m kind of an idiot


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Probably true, I’m kind of an idiot


Well I would have given anything in my 20s to be the "idiot" you are now!


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## SupremeFist (Sep 21, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> If you want an analog sound and don't care about specifics (e.g., Prophet, Oberheim, Roland, etc.) then it's hard to beat Diva for that. It can go pretty deep on sound design without being overwhelming, and it takes to added FX quite nicely.


Absolutely. I assume Zebra is out for OP because he wants something more beginner-friendly, and Diva is much easier to operate (and still sounds amazing). Probably Hive also fits the bill - I don't have it but you basically can't go wrong with u-He.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Idk if it’s just me but I’ve always found Zebra to be really easy to use, the modular panel in the middle makes it pretty simple to get up and running as it shows you the actual path of the modules, maybe it’s just because it’s the first synth I bought so I know it best, but I think it’s easier to get up and running on Zebra than Diva, Hive, etc.


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Idk if it’s just me but I’ve always found Zebra to be really easy to use, the modular panel in the middle makes it pretty simple to get up and running as it shows you the actual path of the modules, maybe it’s just because it’s the first synth I bought so I know it best, but I think it’s easier to get up and running on Zebra than Diva, Hive, etc.


Personally I agree, but for some people the lack of visual feedback for modulation might be a problem.

I've been using Zebra for 12 years now and when I have the matrix all used plus modulation on the modules themselves I get confused.


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Well I would have given anything in my 20s to be the "idiot" you are now!


I was......, but probably not that kind of an idiot 🤔

EDIT: You might thought about an awsome kind of idiot that actually did something with their life 😉


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Personally I agree, but for some people the lack of visual feedback for modulation might be a problem.
> 
> I've been using Zebra for 12 years now and when I have the matrix all used plus modulation on the modules themselves I get confused.



Yeah that’s the thing about Zebra, it has the potential to get WAY more complex than any of the other synths with its routing and modulation capabilities, but at the same time I think it’s much easier to get something simple up and running, on paper maybe it shouldn’t be, but I struggle to make things that are simple but interesting on other synths, but on Zebra it’s super easy, I just love the MSEGs so much so it’s probably that


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## sostenuto (Sep 21, 2022)

As 'lower-level' softsynth fanboy _ would luv to see some reasonable consensus _ 🤣 _ on groupings mentioned in sone post above. Also, maybe couple best examples of each ? 
In absence of deep-dive chops, get quickly confused as popular choices have notable sales. Not so clear which groups some fall in, as well as where my several SS(s) fall. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Idk if it’s just me but I’ve always found Zebra to be really easy to use, the modular panel in the middle makes it pretty simple to get up and running as it shows you the actual path of the modules, maybe it’s just because it’s the first synth I bought so I know it best, but I think it’s easier to get up and running on Zebra than Diva, Hive, etc.


Hey, if they offer a demo it doesn't hurt to try. In my head I'm like a child that find moving colorful objects fascinating. That's why I'm kinda hung up on getting a babyfriendly interface. That's why I have spectral on almost all my mix/master plugins to I can see in real time what.....forget it, me talking to much again.

Thank you for all support and subjective feedback. Just what I was going for 👍
No, I'm not being ironic or sarcastic. I was actually going for subjective, that was my objective call. Try asking 10 guys (Or women!) about what's the best car brand. I'm not expecting getting any objective feedback from 90% of them. That's just human nature.
Maybe one exception, @doctoremmet is the adult here and puts me in place when I don't sound sane or reasonable 😂


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Hey, if they offer a demo it doesn't hurt to try. In my head I'm like a child that find moving colorful objects fascinating. That's why I'm kinda hung up on getting a babyfriendly interface. That's why I have spectral on almost all my mix/master plugins to I can see in real time what.....forget it, me talking to much again.
> 
> Thank you for all support and subjective feedback. Just what I was going for 👍
> No, I'm not being ironic or sarcastic. I was actually going for subjective, that was my objective call. Try asking 10 guys (Or women!) about what's the best car brand. I'm not expecting getting any objective feedback from 90% of them. That's just human nature.
> Maybe one exception, @doctoremmet is the adult here and puts me in place when I don't sound sane or reasonable 😂



Zebra does offer an unlimited trial!! It just outputs a noise every so often when it’s in trial mode, so you’ll have plenty of time to see if you like it. Dune 3 has a trail period with unlimited use trying it


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Zebra does offer an unlimited trial!! It just outputs a noise every so often when it’s in trial mode, so you’ll have plenty of time to see if you like it. Dune 3 has a trail period with unlimited use trying it


Awsome 👍


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> That's why I'm kinda hung up on getting a babyfriendly interface.


You wouldn’t believe it coming from me, but this stuff actually does matter. If an interface makes you feel good, it can truly help inspire you as a musician too. I always use Abbey Road TG12345 on channels because it makes me feel like Alan Parsons recording a Pink Floyd record. Not even kidding. So for now I think you need to get Pigments 3 and Dune 3. But do yourself a favour and wait for a good sale. Oops sorry, my inner adult took over there for a minute. Kidding aside, I have been sleeping on Pigments for almost two years, and actually @arovane released a couple of really affordable yet rather brilliant presets recently that totally changed my perception of it.


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## Kyle Preston (Sep 21, 2022)

Zebra, Zebra HZ, full stop!

For me, there was a bit of a learning curve (was my first synth purchase), but I feel a lot more confident _because _I learned synth fundamentals by translating what I saw hardware synth users do, but on Zebra.

Diva is also excellent, less comprehensive and less functionality, but a great way to build synth patches quickly with great filters. 

Also, and this is one of those things I don't see people consider very often, but there's a simple reason I love Zebra (other than that it sounds awesome): if you download Zebra HZ, you're not only getting the amazing sounds, you're getting the blueprints for how those sounds were built (by Howard Scarr and Hans Zimmer). You can literally reverse-engineer the thinking that went into designing and building those sounds in the first place. How f#$%ing cool is that?


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Zebra does offer an unlimited trial!! It just outputs a noise every so often when it’s in trial mode, so you’ll have plenty of time to see if you like it. Dune 3 has a trail period with unlimited use trying it


I have to ask, is zebra your go-to or what's your preferable sound toy when creating?


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I have to ask, is zebra your go-to or what's your preferable sound toy when creating?



Zebra is definitely the first thing I grab, I have 20 initialized instances of Zebra in my template so I can just load one up and getting going whenever I need a synth, lately I’ve been using a lot of Dune 3 though, Zebra I like for textures and pads while Dune I like for pulses and plucks


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

I’d also say the stock presents in Dune are 1000x better than the stock presets in Zebra, the stock Zebra presets are honestly not very good or useable at all in my opinion, but the presets in ZebraHZ are incredible, as they should be cause they were made for and used in The Dark Knight, the stock Dune presets on the other hand are incredible, a lot of them are from Kevin Schroeder so they’re instantly useable and sound sick


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> by Howard Scarr


This is the reason U-he synths are must-haves. My personal favourite of theirs is Bazille, and Scarr’s Cookbook has some of the best sounds I have ever heard. A good second for me is Hive 2. I also like ZebraHZ but I haven’t owned it long enough to have put in the time to say anything sensible from a user experience POV. But I trust you, Kenneth, Pier and many others.

But boy, Bazille does sound good and yes Howard Scarr’s patches are effing brilliant. I would also like to go on record that Pier’s patches (Mercury Sound) are great and that Kenneth’s demo for them is equally great. @Pier @KEM









Black Ops In Benghazi


Listen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nP0_Bi-QT8




on.soundcloud.com


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> You wouldn’t believe it coming from me, but this stuff actually does matter. If an interface makes you feel good, it can truly help inspire you as a musician too. I always use Abbey Road TG12345 on channels because it makes me feel like Alan Parsons recording a Pink Floyd record. Not even kidding. So for now I think you need to get Pigments 3 and Dune 3. But do yourself a favour and wait for a good sale. Oops sorry, my inner adult took over there for a minute. Kidding aside, I have been sleeping on Pigments for almost two years, and actually @arovane released a couple of really affordable yet rather brilliant presets recently that totally changed my perception of it.


So when you realized you're not Alan Parson you hit The Wall? Oh my, that's probably the dryest thing I've heard all day 🥴

I with ya 100%. Visualisation is no myth. As you said, something that looks good and feels good can motivate.....🤔 Can actually motivate and inspire even The Wall!

So Pi3 and Dune 3? Wait for sale, demo first, got it 👍


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> This is the reason U-he synths are must-haves. My personal favourite of theirs is Bazille, and Scarr’s Cookbook has some if the best sounds I have ever heard. A good second for me is Hive 2. I also like ZebraHZ but I haven’t owned it long enough to have put in the time to say anything sensible from a user experience POV. But I trust you, Kenneth, Pier and many others.
> 
> But boy, Bazille does sound good and yes Howard Scarr’s patches are effing brilliant. I would also like to go on record that Pier’s patches (Mercury Sound) are great and that Kenneth’s demo for them is equally great. @Pier @KEM
> 
> ...



That’s a pretty good track I’m actually working on another track like this, I’ve been listening to the Hans Zimmer/Lorne Balfe soundtrack for Modern Warfare 2 a lot lately and there’s a new iteration of Modern Warfare 2 coming out next month that I’m very excited for, so all of this Call of Duty hype has me making some more modern stealth action tracks, this new one is using a lot of Dune 3 but there’s also a fair amount of Zebra in there


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> So when you realized you're not Alan Parson you hit The Wall? Oh my, that's probably the dryest thing I've heard all day 🥴
> 
> I with ya 100%. Visualisation is no myth. As you said, something that looks good and feels good can motivate.....🤔 Can actually motivate and inspire even The Wall!
> 
> So Pi3 and Dune 3? Wait for sale, demo first, got it 👍


You’ll love both.


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## Kyle Preston (Sep 21, 2022)

Hey thanks for the reminder about Pier's library @doctoremmet! Meant to purchase Urban Warfare last week but got sidetracked, am downloading right meow


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I would also like to go on record that Pier’s patches (Mercury Sound) are great and that Kenneth’s demo for them is equally great. @Pier @KEM


Thank you Doctor and Kyle 🙏


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## José Herring (Sep 21, 2022)

Personally I'd save the $200 for now and get some of the free synths. As has been mentioned Vital is a great synth. Helm, Surgext and Pendulate are also very, very good synths. 
That with Falcon and your Arturia synths, you'll be fine. 

If I may be so bold as to say from reading a few of the post in this thread, it looks like you're looking for that one magic synth that will help you be better at synthesis rather than trying to understand synthesis so that you can judge and use any synth. 

But if you're hell bent on spending the money. I'd put my money on either Zebra or Phaseplant. But honestly, first I'd learn to use what you have and learn to use the freebees which are way better now than the Synth 1, Crystal days when I started. 

Then take that money and use it on a training course like Syntorial and read, read, read, program, read some more, look for programming tips, ect...

I have a little secret. I have a bit of a sound designer crush on Kevin Schroeder. I'm like he makes the kind of sounds I wanna make when I get to be a big boy. So, I took my copy of Obsession because it was a little easier to wrap my head around, found the sounds he did that I thought were super cool, and just studied how they were made. Between that and taking a course like Syntorial and studying just about every manual I could get my hands on, including classic synths that I don't even own, I started to make sounds that are starting to really interest me.


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## José Herring (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> This is the reason U-he synths are must-haves. My personal favourite of theirs is Bazille, and Scarr’s Cookbook has some of the best sounds I have ever heard. A good second for me is Hive 2. I also like ZebraHZ but I haven’t owned it long enough to have put in the time to say anything sensible from a user experience POV. But I trust you, Kenneth, Pier and many others.
> 
> But boy, Bazille does sound good and yes Howard Scarr’s patches are effing brilliant. I would also like to go on record that Pier’s patches (Mercury Sound) are great and that Kenneth’s demo for them is equally great. @Pier @KEM
> 
> ...


Why am I only hearing this for the fist time? This is excellent.


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> That’s a pretty good track I’m actually working on another track like this, I’ve been listening to the Hans Zimmer/Lorne Balfe soundtrack for Modern Warfare 2 a lot lately and there’s a new iteration of Modern Warfare 2 coming out next month that I’m very excited for, so all of this Call of Duty hype has me making some more modern stealth action tracks, this new one is using a lot of Dune 3 but there’s also a fair amount of Zebra in there


The first Modern Warfare soundtrack by Sarah Schachner is fucking brilliant. It was a massive inspiration for my Urban Warfare library.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I have a little secret. I have a bit of a sound designer crush on Kevin Schroeder. I'm like he makes the kind of sounds I wanna make when I get to be a big boy. So, I took my copy of Obsession because it was a little easier to wrap my head around, found the sounds he did that I thought were super cool, and just studied how they were made. Between that and taking a course like Syntorial and studying just about every manual I could get my hands on, including classic synths that I don't even own, I started to make sounds that are starting to really interest me.



Basically same for me, I’ve been reverse engineering Kevin Schroeder patches in Dune 3 and applying those concepts to Zebra with its extra capabilities, one day I’ll be good with synths if I keep it up…


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Basically same for me, I’ve been reverse engineering Kevin Schroeder patches in Dune 3 and applying those concepts to Zebra with its extra capabilities, one day I’ll be good with synths if I keep it up…


When a KEM library for Zebra or Dune?


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Why am I only hearing this for the fist time? This is excellent.



 



Pier said:


> The first Modern Warfare soundtrack by Sarah Schachner is fucking brilliant. It was a massive inspiration for my Urban Warfare library.




Dude I’ve listened to it SO many times!! My favorite tracks are the ones with Mike Dean, he announced that he was working on the score shortly before the game came out and my best friend and I were freaking out and that increased our hype by 1000%. As you’re already well aware we worship Kanye, so to have his right hand man, the synth god himself, Mike Dean lending his synth wizardry to Modern Warfare?! Couldn’t have ever dreamed of it, and to say he did a good job would be an understatement, the tracks he worked on are by far the best in the entire score


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> When a KEM library for Zebra or Dune?



When I’m actually good at making synth patches  I’ve actually been making my own 808s and I’ve thought about putting a pack together and giving it out to everyone here


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Zebra is definitely the first thing I grab, I have 20 initialized instances of Zebra in my template so I can just load one up and getting going whenever I need a synth, lately I’ve been using a lot of Dune 3 though, Zebra I like for textures and pads while Dune I like for pulses and plucks


Wonder how many years I'm gonna use learning what's good for what. From where I stand I wouldn't have a chance hearing and know enough to differentiate.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Wonder how many years I'm gonna use learning what's good for what. From where I stand I wouldn't have a chance hearing and know enough to differentiate.



It does take awhile, which can be daunting, but the knowledge is very rewarding


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Why am I only hearing this for the fist time? This is excellent.


It is. Pier has the uncanny ability to attract only the best of the best demo makers for his sound libraries. Kenneth and Bee. A pair of geniuses.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> It is. Pier has the uncanny ability to attract only the best of the best demo makers for his sound libraries. Kenneth and Bee. A pair of geniuses.




Genius…?? I’m just a stupid kid with a computer!!


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## sean8877 (Sep 21, 2022)

Teksonik said:


> Vital is payware with a free level.


"payware with a free level" sounds like free to me. But yes definitely support the developer if you can.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> Genius…?? I’m just a stupid kid with a computer!!


No see? You really aren’t.


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Personally I'd save the $200 for now and get some of the free synths. As has been mentioned Vital is a great synth. Helm, Surgext and Pendulate are also very, very good synths.
> That with Falcon and your Arturia synths, you'll be fine.
> 
> If I may be so bold as to say from reading a few of the post in this thread, it looks like you're looking for that one magic synth that will help you be better at synthesis rather than trying to understand synthesis so that you can judge and use any synth.
> ...


Not quite sure how you concluded on how I only want to be good at it but not understand it. Is it one thing I'm famous for, for good and bad, is that I will never ever settle for "it just is". I'm crazy enough to ask why a Stone don't talk and I won't settle on "it just can't, it's not a living thing" and I would have follow up question on that.

So hellbound on using money? No! Be better at synthesizes? Absolutely. Understand synthesizes? Definetly. Why not use Falcon? Because of the overwhelming and a bit steep learning curve. I don't want to loose motivation because it's tidious and my patience isn't among the best. I want a very clear overview where I have more or less the whole layout right in front of me. 

I find Cameron at Venus Theory to be a good YouTube mentor on Falcon. But a great teacher can't make up for an interface I don't like. That's why I won't use Falcon at this point.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> No see? You really aren’t.



If pressing buttons until a cool sound comes out makes me a genius I’ll take it!! That’s about the extent of my musical abilities lol


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 21, 2022)

Just remember that using the same tools as famous people can really help you learn to sound like famous people.

But what do you want your sound to be?

Clearly if you're trying to make money you'll have to at least somewhat follow fads and hitmakers. But what about as an artist? Of course, most "tools" now are so good that you can use the same tool as someone else and sound totally different. But it's just a general, philosophical question to mull over as you learn synths.

The more you try out and use over time, the more your own likes/dislikes will be learned. You already may have an indication of some of what you don't like - though, as you learn more, perhaps you'll return to Falcon and it'll "fly" for you (gods that was cheesy!). Or maybe you'll find that you'd rather use two simpler synths than one complex one. That's where I seem to be.


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

KEM said:


> If pressing buttons until a cool sound comes out


Don't reveal the ancient secrets!!!


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Don't reveal the ancient secrets!!!


Haha! 

I just made a great double-tracked electric guitar sound (esp paired with The Scream) with OPS7 last night using the random feature. Also using random on Generate in my short use led to some fun stuff.

Shhhhhhh.


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## José Herring (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Not quite sure how you concluded on how I only want to be good at it but not understand it. Is it one thing I'm famous for, for good and bad, is that I will never ever settle for "it just is". I'm crazy enough to ask why a Stone don't talk and I won't settle on "it just can't, it's not a living thing" and I would have follow up question on that.
> 
> So hellbound on using money? No! Be better at synthesizes? Absolutely. Understand synthesizes? Definetly. Why not use Falcon? Because of the overwhelming and a bit steep learning curve. I don't want to loose motivation because it's tidious and my patience isn't among the best. I want a very clear overview where I have more or less the whole layout right in front of me.
> 
> I find Cameron at Venus Theory to be a good YouTube mentor on Falcon. But a great teacher can't make up for an interface I don't like. That's why I won't use Falcon at this point.


I just don't want to see you wasting money when you don't have to, or coming down this path. Look buying synths is fun. I sat down one day kind of frustrated that I hadn't find "the synth" I needed and just counted "the synths" I had. I lost count at 30 about 1/2 way down the list. I started thinking then it wasn't "the synths". It was me. 

Just again briefly reading some of the post, it's clear that the main issue isn't that you don't have synths you can work with, but that you don't like working with them, in spite of the fact that you already have great synths to work with! 

You don't dig falcon UI, and that's fine. You're entitled to that. But, honestly every UI faces its challenges. The easier UI I've found so far is Phaseplant because you only see what you're using so it gives you a great way to learn, but it also creates a challenge because nothing is set so no 2 synths you build are quite the same so you have to remember where things are. 

ZebraHZ is great but it's a bit of you kind of have to remember how to access the hidden editors, which sometimes in the middle of the night I still struggle with. 

But since you've kind of passed up on what I seem to see as Falcon and Arturia synths, not to mention you probably also have some decent synths included in what ever DAW you use, and you haven't mentioned the tons of great free synths, then I started thinking the problem isn't the synths and quite frankly $200 isn't going to give you that magic synth that all of a sudden works for you better than what you already have.

So, I was thinking, try Vital, Surge XT, Helm, ect...save the $200 for more education which will take you farther than buying one new synth. 

I'm not really saying all this to offend. It's probably a little harsh sounding but I just honestly feel that perhaps throwing money at this problem isn't going to get you what you want or worse, another synth that you just don't quite get along with.
But, I don't want to stop you. Having tons of synths is a lot of fun and sometimes I just set in front of the computer and just play with all the synths I have. But, I do notice that when the rubber hits the road and I need to actually get something out, only about 5 or so synths get called upon.


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## LA68 (Sep 21, 2022)

About the Zebra suggestion, if that one is too much...Maybe it's an option to buy an issue of Computer Music and use Zebra CM for a while? That way he won't lose a ton of money if it doesn't work for him, and if he likes it...Well, he'll already be familiar with the big brother.

...And once that is done...He might want to check out Bazille CM


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## Thlian (Sep 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I just don't want to see you wasting money when you don't have to, or coming down this path. Look buying synths is fun. I sat down one day kind of frustrated that I hadn't find "the synth" I needed and just counted "the synths" I had. I lost count at 30 about 1/2 way down the list. I started thinking then it wasn't "the synths". It was me.
> 
> Just again briefly reading some of the post, it's clear that the main issue isn't that you don't have synths you can work with, but that you don't like working with them, in spite of the fact that you already have great synths to work with!
> 
> ...


I actually only "own" one synth and that's Falcon. Libraries on the other hand 🙄 and not to talk about plugins. I'll buy almost anything that cross my path if I think it could morph even a single tap on the table to some outer space action packed thunderous sound. But I've come to realize that I'm not short of plugins, only lack of knowledge. Oh, I have 1, no maybe 2 more on my wish list. But I don't have a proper choir I have to do something about that too. 

So I see your point, but I haven't gathered synths yet. Studio One doesn't have a synth with the bells and whistles I want.


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## sostenuto (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I actually only "own" one synth and that's Falcon. Libraries on the other hand 🙄 and not to talk about plugins. I'll buy almost anything that cross my path if I think it could morph even a single tap on the table to some outer space action packed thunderous sound. But I've come to realize that I'm not short of plugins, only lack of knowledge. Oh, I have 1, no maybe 2 more on my wish list. But I don't have a proper choir I have to do something about that too.
> 
> So I see your point, but I haven't gathered synths yet. Studio One doesn't have a synth with the bells and whistles I want.


In context with ideas posted above _ not Falcon user _ yet if one is learning Falcon ...... what top-tier softsynths 'clearly' add notable incremental content /value to Falcon, when sorting thru whichever 'groups' of softsynths cover mainstream needs / uses ?? 

Remain interested in what these 'groups' are, as capable Users here define them.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 21, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I actually only "own" one synth and that's Falcon. Libraries on the other hand 🙄 and not to talk about plugins. I'll buy almost anything that cross my path if I think it could morph even a single tap on the table to some outer space action packed thunderous sound. But I've come to realize that I'm not short of plugins, only lack of knowledge. Oh, I have 1, no maybe 2 more on my wish list. But I don't have a proper choir I have to do something about that too.
> 
> So I see your point, but I haven't gathered synths yet. Studio One doesn't have a synth with the bells and whistles I want.


Based on this, I think I’d suggest a combo of the free ones mentioned (in case one like Vital helps you learn) and perhaps Diva (or even a dedicated emulation of a specific analog synth) to help you better learn aspects of subtractive synthesis. An analog emulation, even like Diva, has more “rails” around it and, typically, more of a what you see is what you get user interface.

FM and other types of synthesis can wait.

In fact, my recommendation is this: Vital and Diva. One is free and the other has a demo (and a million 3rd party presets, including amazing ones from The Unfinished and Luftrum that can be purchased down the road). If you want a free analog emulation that’s pretty solid, check out Full Bucket Synths - their MonoFury synth is pretty good.

Side note: it costs more, but I heartily recommend a hardware analog or virtual analog synth to better learn. I spent many years with software, but it wasn’t until I had hardware that my understanding advanced by leaps and bounds. The connection between physically turning a knob and hearing what it does was invaluable. I’m now much more confident with software. FM sort of still baffles me, but I bought a Digitone awhile back that’s helping.


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## Braveheart (Sep 21, 2022)

My personal favorite is Avenger. Sounds amazing, presets by one of the best sound designers in the business, you can import your samples, it has a drum section with a lot of flexibility, etc. You can try a demo and see for yourself.


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## Alchemedia (Sep 21, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> My personal favorite is Avenger. Sounds amazing, presets by one of the best sound designers in the business, you can import your samples, it has a drum section with a lot of flexibility, etc. You can try a demo and see for yourself.


Currently on sale for $109 ($230 SRP) at Plugin Boutique. 
Caveat emptor...


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## Pier (Sep 21, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Caveat emptor...


Yeah 😂

Whenever I look for Avenger presets on Youtube I find the demos from that guy... and... yeah.

But looking at the manual the synth seems super powerful.

It even has a drum sampler with its sequencer:






This is the best introduction video I've found. It's from 2020 though, not sure if there have been any updates since then:


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Whenever I look for Avenger presets on Youtube I find the demos from that guy... and... yeah.


Watch one and you never think of getting Avenger again. I ended up getting Parawave Rapid because of them, when I was curious about the two top tier synths Avenger and Rapid that hardly ever get any attention on here. And Rapid is one of the most straight forward, accessible and easily programmable synths I own.


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## GregSilver (Sep 22, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> You wouldn’t believe it coming from me, but this stuff actually does matter. If an interface makes you feel good, it can truly help inspire you as a musician too.


So often underestimated but so incredibly important. Trust your doctor!


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## cedricm (Sep 22, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I want to invest in a proper synth. I don't want to choose the wrong one based on a cool looking UI or something like that. I have UVI Falcon, not the most intuitive synth on the planet. A bit tidious for a beginner. Budget is around $200, so we can rule out Omnisphere.


If I had to keep only one, I would keep UVI Falcon.

If you don't find it very intuitive, that's because it offers possibilities beyond most others.

You may be happier with Arturia Pigments or Kilohearts PhasePlant, which show a lot graphically.

On the other hand, you could invest time enough to understand Vital or Surge, two amazing freeware synths.


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## AudioLoco (Sep 22, 2022)

Zebra HZ is a great investment for example (investment is a perfect word).

Also, if the answer to every "which sample library should I get" would have been "learn to use the libraries you have" we wouldn't have VI-Control at all. 

I also second the comments recommending a hardware synth (there are some really cheap ones available these days). Sooooo much more fun then a software one, mostly sound amazing, and no preset tweaking, so you gotta really understand what you are doing...


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## Voider (Sep 22, 2022)

I wouldn't recommend Zebra as first synthesizer, because it makes use of additive synthesis which is quite uncommon and won't translate that easily to most other synths _for a beginner_. Regarding hardware you also won't get anything serious for 200 bucks to learn synthesis deeply, since the handful of synths that exist in that price range are really basic.

If you're a visual learner, nothing beats Pigments by Arturia. The visual representation of many elements and the color design makes easier to understand what's happening and how everything interacts. In terms of features Pigments offers almost everything one could ask for, but it's still so well organized that you won't get overwhelmed by being confronted with it all in one page.


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## AudioLoco (Sep 22, 2022)

Voider said:


> I wouldn't recommend Zebra as first synthesizer, because it makes use of additive synthesis which is quite uncommon and won't translate that easily to most other synths _for a beginner_. Regarding hardware you also won't get anything serious for 200 bucks to learn synthesis deeply, since the handful of synths that exist in that price range are really basic.
> 
> If you're a visual learner, nothing beats Pigments by Arturia. The visual representation of many elements and the color design makes easier to understand what's happening and how everything interacts. In terms of features Pigments offers almost everything one could ask for, but it's still so well organized that you won't get overwhelmed by being confronted with it all in one page.


You can learn a lot by using and enjoying a nice Mini Moog (a used clone, the excellent Behringer Model D may be found for around the 200$ mark) like so many have done in the past. 
Basic doesn't mean that by learning it the notions will not translate to other synths.
As for Zebra - it is recognized by most as the most useful and loved of them all around here. Why not start with (one of the) the best? The OP was talking about investment afterall.


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## Voider (Sep 22, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> You can learn a lot by using and enjoying a nice Mini Moog (a used clone, the excellent Behringer Model D may be found for around the 200$ mark) like so many have done in the past.
> Basic doesn't mean that by learning it the notions will not translate to other synths.


I didn't say that basic knowledge wouldn't translate to other synths, that statement was about Zebras' specific design - additive synthesis may not translate so well to subtractive synthesis for a beginner who isn't yet really good with the general concepts of synthesis.

The Behringer Model D doesn't even have a basic full ADSR envelope, because the release knob is missing. And then it only offers one and not two envelopes, which means that you can't build 90% of the patches out there because you're unable to treat the amp and filter envelope individually, which is very important to create some types of patches and make a lot of patches more interesting and engaging.

Having two full ADSR envelopes that you can route independently is something that I consider to be the bare minimum. And that's why I said that these low budget HW synths aren't a good place to start. If you're a die hard fan of the mini moog and on a budget, and you just want that specific filter sound, then this little toy might bring you some fun when recreating some sounds or just adding some flavour to your composition, but it's not a great starter synth with a great return of investment if learning synthesis and not just enjoying sounds is the goal.



AudioLoco said:


> As for Zebra - it is recognized by most as the most useful and loved of them all around here. Why not start with (one of the) the best? The OP was talking about investment afterall.


Investment to me means that you'll get a lot out of something for the time, effort and money you put into it. Now if the goal is to learn synthesis deeply, then starting on an additive synthesizer while 95% of the synths out there are subtractive synthesizers isn't approaching this goal in the best way.

If one learns Pigments and understands subtractive synthesis well, then it translates almost 1:1 to almost every synth out there. Synthesizers like Zebra who are something of their own kind are a great thing to learn if one is already advanced and has mastered the fundamentals of subtractive synthesis, but I wouldn't necessarily suggest to start there.


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## styphonthal (Sep 22, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I understand I have to choose my word wisely around here.
> 
> Not gonna argue around the word "invest". As some would say, maybe it was the right thing to say or the wrong one, both good be good words, I don't know.
> 
> ...


For me, when it comes to diversity/range:
1. UVI Falcon
2. Arturia Pigments
3. Omnisphere
4. Waldorf Iridium (hardware, but still).

If I was to start from beginning, I would not use these. Instead I would start with
-One of the arturia single synths (Such as OBXa, SQ80, etc)
-Serum (the most famous wavetable synth)
-synleth1
-spire
-synthmaster.
-If hardware then Minilogue


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## sundrowned (Sep 22, 2022)

I'd get Serum on rent to buy for a month or so and do a bunch of tutorials with it. Then get the demos of other recommended synths and try to recreate the patches made in the serum tutorials. 

Serum was the synth that made a lot of stuff click for me. It's a really good synth to learn and improve on I think.


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## Pier (Sep 22, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I ended up getting Parawave Rapid because of them, when I was curious about the two top tier synths Avenger and Rapid that hardly ever get any attention on here.


I've been curious about Rapid for some time. I might end up getting it even though it kinda annoys me Parawave only sells NFR licenses.



Voider said:


> I wouldn't recommend Zebra as first synthesizer, because it makes use of additive synthesis


That's simply not true.

You can use Zebra as a modular subtractive synth which is probably how most people use it.

And Zebra can be a better way to learn for some people precisely because you're not constrained by a fixed architecture. I know that was the case for me.


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## Pier (Sep 22, 2022)

Voider said:


> Zebras' specific design - additive synthesis may not translate so well to subtractive synthesis for a beginner who isn't yet really good with the general concepts of synthesis.


Technically speaking, Zebra is mostly a wavetable synth if we ignore the FM modules. The oscillator modes are really wavetable editors.

Vital, Serum, and Dune also have wavetable editors with partials but you wouldn't call those additive synths either, right?


----------



## Voider (Sep 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> That's simply not true.
> 
> You can use Zebra as a modular subtractive synth which is probably how most people use it.


I didn't mean additive synthesis in terms of sound creation, but in terms of the overall architectural approach, should've make that more clear_. _The way everything is laid out in Zebra, the workflow, the GUI, - it all might be a bit overwhelming for beginners because they're being flooded with even more informations and buttons they don't understand yet. It's made to create complex routings, add modules, connect them and build your own custom settings. Which is great for advanced synth users, but not for beginners who don't even know what the modules do, what routings are, to which place they should go and why.

And the main problem will be to determine which things are pretty common in most other synthesizers and which are more Zebra specific things that go beyond the typical subtractive features, things that you will hardly find or won't find at all in most other subtractive synthesizers.

So someone might end up studying XMF and Comb filters instead of filter keytracking and resonance.
In synths like Pigments these extra things exist too, but they're out of your way, you really need to search for them (_parallel filtering for instance_). The GUI tells you by its hierarchy design alone what's common and what isn't so much.

Zebra on the other hand is laid out to offer a fast and comprehensive workflow for advanced users with everything in one place. So that you can modulate, route and add things that go beyond the idea of sculpting sound by subtracting elements. Hope that makes more clear what I mean.



Pier said:


> And Zebra can be a better way to learn for some people precisely because you're not constrained by a fixed architecture. I know that was the case for me.


A fixed architecture doesn't necessarily mean that you're much constrained, it depends on the routings and modules that you have access to. There's often more than only one way to get a desired result.

A user at KVR once asked in the forum whether he should buy Dune 2 or Zebra, he had the concern that Dune 2 might be too limited compared to Zebra. Urs himself from U-HE (the Zebra developer, for anyone not knowing who that is) chimed in and replied that he doesn't need to worry, Dune 2 would be so powerful that if he decides to go with Dune 2, there's most likely nothing he couldn't build with it.

Heck, Kevin Schröder even managed to create absolutely stunning and realistically sounding Cello and Piano patches with Dune2. (3:30 for anyone interested: Cinematic for Dune 2 KS)

There's really no need to worry about being constrained with Pigments or Dune, these a top tier synths with endless possibilities. And especially for a beginner a little bit of guidance (fixed architecture, hierarchy of features) is a great bonus when learning. Otherwise, when we talk about technical potential, we'd need to point every newbie at Reaktor.

I'd say you should learn to walk before you run, learn to create sounds before you start to build your own custom synthesizer by connecting modules. Otherwise frustration might kill any fun when learning synthesis and prevent the learner from staying motivated and hanging tough.


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## Voider (Sep 22, 2022)

@Pier

I've updated my post, I realized that this was probably a misunderstanding because of the term _additive synthesis _when I just saw your wavetable post. I didn't mean it in terms of synthesizers based on that additive sinewave approach, but the approach in the architectural design of a synth by crafting sounds through adding modules/components.

This was a way the term _additive synthesis_ had been used back then in the biggest german synthesizer board, but I came to the realization that it might never carried over to be an actual definition in the synth world apart from that board.

So yeah, edited my post to express what I mean.


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## Pier (Sep 22, 2022)

Voider said:


> This was a way the term _additive synthesis_ had been used back then in the biggest german synthesizer board, but I came to the realization that it might never carried over to be an actual definition in the synth world apart from that board.


Yeah, for world of synths at large this is what "additive synthesis" is:






Additive synthesis - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Personally, I've never heard the term referring to anything else but this.


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## Voider (Sep 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah, for world of synths at large this is what "additive synthesis" is


Yes I know that one, I just didn't think of that maybe the other definition from back then didn't establish, so that it weren't easy to tell which I meant by context.


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## SupremeFist (Sep 22, 2022)

Voider said:


> Having two full ADSR envelopes that you can route independently is something that I consider to be the bare minimum. And that's why I said that these low budget HW synths aren't a good place to start.


The Behringer Pro-One has two envelopes though! And sounds great.

(I wanted a poly so bought a Sequential Take 5, which aside from being gorgeous in its own right is already improving my understanding of my soft synths.)


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## Thlian (Sep 22, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> The Behringer Pro-One has two envelopes though! And sounds great.
> 
> (I wanted a poly so bought a Sequential Take 5, which aside from being gorgeous in its own right is already improving my understanding of my soft synths.)


Wouldn`t settle for anything less either.

As many now has mentioned hardware, I have asked and it has been discussed before. Where I just concluded based upon the answers there, that hardware are waste of money when you can have instantly access to almost any synth created, sampled in every possible manner by itself and with a 100 others, in minutes. Downloaded on my computer!

So yeah, I let go of that thought.
But I have to admit I fiddle a bit with some of the small ones displayed in the local store. Not the big expensive ones not stands i the middle of the shop, but by the wall in the corner  I can get an ASM hydrasynth explorer for about $650.


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## Braveheart (Sep 22, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Watch one and you never think of getting Avenger again. I ended up getting Parawave Rapid because of them, when I was curious about the two top tier synths Avenger and Rapid that hardly ever get any attention on here. And Rapid is one of the most straight forward, accessible and easily programmable synths I own.


I tried the demo of Rapid and didn’t fell in love. And they charge 20% VAT tax included in the price, even to non European customers, which I don’t think is legal.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 22, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Wouldn`t settle for anything less either.
> 
> As many now has mentioned hardware, I have asked and it has been discussed before. Where I just concluded based upon the answers there, that hardware are waste of money when you can have instantly access to almost any synth created, sampled in every possible manner by itself and with a 100 others, in minutes. Downloaded on my computer!
> 
> ...


Getting the RIGHT hardware synth makes most software synths feel less valuable (to me). Some hardware synths are more "capable" than most software (e.g., Iridium). Just depends on what you want, what your goals are, and, most importantly, what you love the sound of. And your budget.

That, and if you want analog, there's hardware analog synths that software hasn't yet been able to match. But, if you just want that "feeling" there's certainly some software that comes close enough (I mentioned some previously). Two primary areas software still falls short, but creeps ever closer, are analog distortion, and analog resonance. Another is in the feeling of "randomness" when it comes to voicing. Examples: nothing in software that I've heard has the organic-ness of the X8 with the way the voices work (I don't have one), nor does anything in software have the resonance of the OB-6 (I do have one of those).

Digital hardware synths are more about the connection with the software they run - dedicated controller, basically. Older ones also impacted the sound more through the DA on the output, etc. While I don't really like the sound of the Hydrasynth, personally, I've read nothing but positive things about the hardware design - of the full one, especially. Haven't kept up on the smaller ones.


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## Thlian (Sep 23, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Getting the RIGHT hardware synth makes most software synths feel less valuable (to me). Some hardware synths are more "capable" than most software (e.g., Iridium). Just depends on what you want, what your goals are, and, most importantly, what you love the sound of. And your budget.
> 
> That, and if you want analog, there's hardware analog synths that software hasn't yet been able to match. But, if you just want that "feeling" there's certainly some software that comes close enough (I mentioned some previously). Two primary areas software still falls short, but creeps ever closer, are analog distortion, and analog resonance. Another is in the feeling of "randomness" when it comes to voicing. Examples: nothing in software that I've heard has the organic-ness of the X8 with the way the voices work (I don't have one), nor does anything in software have the resonance of the OB-6 (I do have one of those).
> 
> Digital hardware synths are more about the connection with the software they run - dedicated controller, basically. Older ones also impacted the sound more through the DA on the output, etc. While I don't really like the sound of the Hydrasynth, personally, I've read nothing but positive things about the hardware design - of the full one, especially. Haven't kept up on the smaller ones.


I haven't tried out Yamaha, Roland and Nord. The other three they have stands in the middel of the shop. I don't want to make an ass of myself because I can't play piano. (It's a paradox, I know)
Wish they had a Moog Voyager, Korg Prologue, Dave Smith or Waldorf and Prophet so I could have the chance to check them out.

But even so, I think software are the cheaper way. Though they are not quite there yet, but close. To do it proper I would probably like to have one of the smaller Moog synths that I could connect to my midi. But after trying I love the feeling of turning knobs and hear the sound change. Roland also have a small modul, SE-02 analog that can be bought with or without keys and are fairly reasonable in price.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 23, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I haven't tried out Yamaha, Roland and Nord. The other three they have stands in the middel of the shop. I don't want to make an ass of myself because I can't play piano. (It's a paradox, I know)
> Wish they had a Moog Voyager, Korg Prologue, Dave Smith or Waldorf and Prophet so I could have the chance to check them out.
> 
> But even so, I think software are the cheaper way. Though they are not quite there yet, but close. To do it proper I would probably like to have one of the smaller Moog synths that I could connect to my midi. But after trying I love the feeling of turning knobs and hear the sound change. Roland also have a small modul, SE-02 analog that can be bought with or without keys and are fairly reasonable in price.


The SE-02 was my first hardware synth (2018). It was a solid first choice. I still have it and use it. In retrospect, I should've just jumped in with what was my *second* hardware synth: the OB-6 (desktop). I learned a lot more using the OB-6 than I did using the SE-02, even though both are 1:1 in terms of controls. I think I just like the polysynth aspect a lot more since I can still use it as a mono but don't have to. And, honestly, my ears find the OB-6 to be sublime.

That said, the SE-02 is incredibly capable and sounds incredibly good (esp. with the ExtBox add on, which was $110 back then). But it's a mono and feels a bit limited to me because of it. It's not a Moog, and getting it to sound like a Moog actually takes a bit of effort, especially around gain staging (Moog is much more tame). It's its own thing. In fact, I've even coaxed some Oberheim pads out of it because of the crossmod etc. The layout and inspiration are clearly the Model D, but then it has the Roland sound (esp the resonance), and the crossmod and some other aspects SE said were inspired by Oberheim. Plus it has a good sequencer - not quite Elektron quality, but one of the better/best on any synth in its price range, especially one that's 100% analog.


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## Mhein (Sep 23, 2022)

I'm a beginner, so I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and say Pigments. I've tried many software synths, but Pigments was one of the easiest to learn and, with the exception of FM, I was able to quickly implement whatever synth theory I happened to be learning about at the time. It supports a great many different synthesis types and the routing of LFOs and envelopes is extremely transparent.

There are a great many presets. I found that reverse engineering presets created by people more talented than I am to be a great learning tool. The sequencer/arp is easy to figure out and very capable. It shed a lot of light for me on why sequencers are still considered desirable in a VST even though you're probably running them I'm what is essentially the most full featured sequencer you're likely to encounter (your DAW).

As far as sound goes, I never really found it to be lacking. Most of the presets are set at a lower output than some other vsts, and most are pretty laden with effects (of which Pigments has many, most of which are of high quality). Once you tone down the reverbs and jack the output a little, it starts to sound a lot more like other synth VSTs, in my personal and very novice opinion. I still use still use it a lot.

Again, I don't have even 1% of the experience that most of the other posters have, but for me as a beginner, Pigments is the one I'd choose to learn on.


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## Thlian (Sep 23, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> The SE-02 was my first hardware synth (2018). It was a solid first choice. I still have it and use it. In retrospect, I should've just jumped in with what was my *second* hardware synth: the OB-6 (desktop). I learned a lot more using the OB-6 than I did using the SE-02, even though both are 1:1 in terms of controls. I think I just like the polysynth aspect a lot more since I can still use it as a mono but don't have to. And, honestly, my ears find the OB-6 to be sublime.
> 
> That said, the SE-02 is incredibly capable and sounds incredibly good (esp. with the ExtBox add on, which was $110 back then). But it's a mono and feels a bit limited to me because of it. It's not a Moog, and getting it to sound like a Moog actually takes a bit of effort, especially around gain staging (Moog is much more tame). It's its own thing. In fact, I've even coaxed some Oberheim pads out of it because of the crossmod etc. The layout and inspiration are clearly the Model D, but then it has the Roland sound (esp the resonance), and the crossmod and some other aspects SE said were inspired by Oberheim. Plus it has a good sequencer - not quite Elektron quality, but one of the better/best on any synth in its price range, especially one that's 100% analog.


Guess you forgot a zero on that budget, Plus another 1K 😉


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 23, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Guess you forgot a zero on that budget, Plus another 1K 😉


Ha! No. Again - I started with the SE-02. I don’t really regret it, just that I should’ve skipped ahead in retrospect. I think the SE-02 is unparalleled at its price for an analog mono, especially that can help teach with the 1:1 interface (almost everything is 1:1). But there’s definitely other options that cost less and still sound good.


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## re-peat (Sep 23, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Two primary areas software still falls short, but creeps ever closer, are analog distortion, and analog resonance. Another is in the feeling of "randomness" when it comes to voicing.



By far the biggest area, in my opinion, where soft synths are no match for hardware, and never will be, is interacting with the instrument. I’m fairly sure the day is upon us when the better quality soft synths will have nailed just about everything that makes hardware sonically so desirable — we’re not quite there yet, but it’s just a matter of time, I feel (companies like Pulsar Modular, GForce and Softube, and even Moog themselves, are getting uncannily close already) — but what soft synths will *never* provide a satisfying substitute for, is the (impossible to overestimate) hands-on, realtime interaction you can have with a hardware unit. That, in my view, is the one remaining unique appeal of hardware that will forever keep justifying its price (as well as its practical inconveniences), even long after software has completely annexed hardware’s sonic territory.

I have a Matriarch. Now, it’s perfectly possible to build a pretty convincing soft synth version of the Matriarch in Softube’s Modular. Takes a bit of time and a good deal of Modular-expertise, but it’s doable and, provided it’s done well, most listeners won’t be able to tell the difference. That being so, the true power and magic of a synth like the Matriarch, the very thing that makes it such an unbelievably inspirational musical instrument, remains far beyond the reach of Modular (or any other software, no matter how clever) in that it only manifests itself when you’re able to ‘play’ (= physically interact with) the *whole* instrument, and I mean not just the keyboard and the standard controllers, but all of its dials, knobs, faders, switches and even its patch points. Live. (And often simultaneously.)

There’s just no comparison between clumsily fiddling about with a mouse (adjusting one parameter at a time) or automating parameters in a DAW, on the one hand, and the exciting, always unpredictable, irreversible, unretraceable, unsaveable and mercilessly surprising interplay with a synth’s very being through hand-ons control of its physical presence, on the other. It’s that complete performance experience which soft synths are simply unable to give.

Not all usage of synths require or benefit from this level of interaction, of course. (In which case, a good soft synth is often preferable to work with.)
But to me — entirely subjective viewpoint, obviously — it’s precisely that interaction, and nothing else, which makes synthesizers the inspiring, endlessly fascinating and musically satisfying instruments that they are. Wouldn’t trade my Matriarch for all the software in the world.

__


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## Thlian (Sep 23, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Ha! No. Again - I started with the SE-02. I don’t really regret it, just that I should’ve skipped ahead in retrospect. I think the SE-02 is unparalleled at its price for an analog mono, especially that can help teach with the 1:1 interface (almost everything is 1:1). But there’s definitely other options that cost less and still sound good.


You said you wished you jumped directly on to the OB. It redefined your understanding of synthesis and the incredible sound. I just pointed out it doesn't come cheap.
I will probably only buy one hardware synth, so I want something polyphonic, something that SE-02 ain't.


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## Bman70 (Sep 23, 2022)

Thomann music has discounted prices on both Zebra ($158) and Dune 3 ($129). It's sorely tempting to buy both, but I just bought Zebra 2 today and would recommend you do the same. 

Because in 2023 when Zebra 3 comes out, Zebra 2 and Dark Zebra will be rolled into one and called Zebra Legacy, which will be free if you own Z2. Meanwhile you will get Z3 for a $30 upgrade fee. (If I read all the fine print right!) To me that's too great of an "investment" to pass up! Really want Dune too though...


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## Pier (Sep 23, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> To me that's too great of an "investment" to pass up!


Exactly!

I mean, Zebra 3 being like the second coming of Christ and all that. 😂



Bman70 said:


> Really want Dune too though...


Dune is going nowhere and Zebra 2 can keep you occupied for years!


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## Bman70 (Sep 23, 2022)

Pier said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I mean, Zebra 3 being like the second coming of Christ and all that. 😂
> 
> ...


I'm just excited to get DZ included! Who knows if I'll even like Z3, Z2 seems fairly intuitive so far though.


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## Thlian (Sep 24, 2022)

COME ON!! I who just settled on Pi3 and Dune to demo and here you come with this shit?! It's not fair, not fair at all....


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## Bman70 (Sep 24, 2022)

I like the idea of Pigments, but I haven’t used it since I bought it. I don’t need flashing lights and animated envelopes etc. Zebra feels like the kind of quiet, sober interface that won’t distract me as I design sounds with great character and gravitas.  Plus you get skins.

I just haven’t seen the breadth of sound sets for Pi3 that I have for Zebra. The links in this thread are stunning, just bought the set by WhyWhy.


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## Thlian (Sep 24, 2022)

I like visualitation, what happens to the envelope, filter waveshape and so on. That's also why I don't use an EQ without spectrum analyzer. I need the graph, like to learn by see and listen. Never have I ever managed to tweak something just by ears. I trust them (20% of the time), but it far off from the critics. I don't use compressors or limiters without the perpetual view. Otherwise it's just fiddling in the dark having no idea how one think affects the other. But in time I guess I will be confident enough.


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## bitbrain (Sep 24, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I like visualitation, what happens to the envelope, filter waveshape and so on. That's also why I don't use an EQ without spectrum analyzer. I need the graph, like to learn by see and listen. Never have I ever managed to tweak something just by ears. I trust them (20% of the time), but it far off from the critics. I don't use compressors or limiters without the perpetual view. Otherwise it's just fiddling in the dark having no idea how one think affects the other. But in time I guess I will be confident enough.


Vital is pretty visually transparent, quite powerful, and free. There is really no reason not to get started with Vital today. Once you have learned the basics, you can always invest in another synth that better suits your unique interests. By starting with a free synth like Vital, you can save your money to buy another synth once you have figured out what it is you really need that Vital can't do.


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## Bman70 (Sep 24, 2022)

bitbrain said:


> Vital is pretty visually transparent, quite powerful, and free. There is really no reason not to get started with Vital today. Once you have learned the basics, you can always invest in another synth that better suits your unique interests. By starting with a free synth like Vital, you can save your money to buy another synth once you have figured out what it is you really need that Vital can't do.


I somewhat disagree with going the free route. When you're going to invest countless hours into a synth, it helps to have something that inspires you. Especially if you can get some stellar 3rd party libraries to play with and reverse engineer. For me, dissecting and learning from a master programmer's sound set, with a top level professional synth, adds a ton of energy and interest I wouldn't get just taking a no-risk "newbie" route with Vital. If I had to stare at that synth all day I would probably go fishing instead.


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## Bman70 (Sep 24, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I like visualitation, what happens to the envelope, filter waveshape and so on. That's also why I don't use an EQ without spectrum analyzer. I need the graph, like to learn by see and listen. Never have I ever managed to tweak something just by ears. I trust them (20% of the time), but it far off from the critics. I don't use compressors or limiters without the perpetual view. Otherwise it's just fiddling in the dark having no idea how one think affects the other. But in time I guess I will be confident enough.


Pigments is a suburb synth. Currently, with Dune 3 and Zebra2 being so close in price at Thomann, I would probably do Pigments and Zebra and just leave Dune for a later time. Just because of the upcoming free DZ upgrade. But you can't go wrong either way.


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## sostenuto (Sep 24, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> I somewhat disagree with going the free route. When you're going to invest countless hours into a synth, it helps to have something that inspires you. Especially if you can get some stellar 3rd party libraries to play with and reverse engineer. For me, dissecting and learning from a master programmer's sound set, with a top level professional synth, adds a ton of energy and interest I wouldn't get just taking a no-risk "newbie" route with Vital. If I had to stare at that synth all day I would probably go fishing instead.


When Luftrum creates cool soundset _ as in Hyperion for Vital _ it adds confidence for Vital's capabilities -_ imho_ . 👏🏻 



https://www.luftrum.com/vital-presets-hyperion/?mc_cid=fdc0aad032&mc_eid=c1f05b6d39


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## rezoneight (Sep 24, 2022)

Re: hardware. IK Uno Synth Pro desktop used. Its a fantastic analog synth. I recently bought one off of reverb.com for about $250.


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## jesussaddle (Sep 24, 2022)

bitbrain said:


> Vital is pretty visually transparent, quite powerful, and free. There is really no reason not to get started with Vital today. Once you have learned the basics, you can always invest in another synth that better suits your unique interests. By starting with a free synth like Vital, you can save your money to buy another synth once you have figured out what it is you really need that Vital can't do.


Vital is something I haven't fully explored (I have the free version, so I'm curious how the additional patches are in the paid version.) I do love Phase Plant. Personally its been the easiest when it came to designing presets I've felt most proud of and were most inspired to write with.

Here's a comparison between Vital & Phase Plant:



Tracktion Hyperion is another bad ass synth that makes creativity fun. (Not to be confused with Hyperion soundset by Luftrum - Luftrum is a sound design genius as I already mentioned below BTW).

Here are some stock Tracktion Hyperion (not Vital) sounds:



Here it is doing FM:



Spire and Sylenth have a lot going for them. Sylenth has a slightly different sound, and cuts through really well for some EDM styles - it sounds more warm IMO - also there are a lot of EDM presets for both of these, and although Spire and Sylenth may be regarded as being roughly at the same level, if you want to look at example DAW files there are a lot that will utilize Sylenth so that's one reason I got it.

I wasn't attracted to the Serum sound straightaway cuz I tend towards analog warmth as opposed to digital edginess, But there are a lot of tutorials for Serum if your thing is dubstep - probably more than for Vital at the moment.

Omnisphere is expensive, but it does have a number of great features depending on what your goal is (for instance you can BOTH do film scoring AND design patches in a large number of genres.). Orb in Omnisphere is an fx that morphs between all the fx types that Omnisphere has, and for this reason it is one of the easiest scoring workflows if you're going for rich, strange and mysterious fx. Omnisphere has latch and trigger (basically a MIDI quantize that happens to affect what you hear while playing). Hyperion has latch but not trigger. AFAIK no other dev has implemented trigger in a functioning way (Reaper plugin devs tried to but weren't very successful.)

Serum is a bit like NI Massive, so if you have NI Komplete you can sort of get by for some of those 2010 type sounds.

Dune has a wonderfully thick sound but it tends to be used for that niche, while not offering a balance if you expect to use it as a main toolkit. It kind of reminds me of Diva. (Hive, Diva, and Zebra are all phenomenal.)

Adam Szabo's Viper is a pretty great Virus emulation - you can do much of that with Spire but Adam seems to have gotten slightly closer to the original Viper sound.

UVI Falcon, like Vital, is also a monster in terms of types of synthesis - I prefer it to VPS Avenger but Avenger is an alternative that can be cheaper on sale. Falcon's evolving sounds are top notch and if you want more power in terms of synthesis, you might start with Vital, and pick up Falcon. On the other hand if you want what Omnisphere has in terms of its 14800 sounds, then you could go that way. (What other synth has 14800 sounds? - also you can try Omnisphere banks by Luftrum - they're phenomenal.)






Spectrasonics - Omnisphere 2.8 - Library







www.spectrasonics.net





Arturia pigments can be fun, but again, although it can be flexible, it doesn't handle things that Sylenth or Spire would and it has a digital harshness that I would compare to Serum.

Finally, Zebra is one of the most original synths and excels at sounds that aren't very easily achieved with anything else. The genius who created Zebra has my highest admiration.


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## Thlian (Sep 25, 2022)

Spent a couple of hours with Dune 3 today and I`m scratching my head. I can`t seem to find a way to create a new amp envelope and route on to a filter. Since I this time only where using 1 filter I managed to tweak it. But I want to choose what kind of envelope I can modulate or affect (not into all glossary yet) the filter with.
Dune is difficult tweaking the filter velocities, but that`s probably just practice.


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## Voider (Sep 25, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Spent a couple of hours with Dune 3 today and I`m scratching my head. I can`t seem to find a way to create a new amp envelope and route on to a filter. Since I this time only where using 1 filter I managed to tweak it. But I want to choose what kind of envelope I can modulate or affect (not into all glossary yet) the filter with.
> Dune is difficult tweaking the filter velocities, but that`s probably just practice.


You mean a 3rd envelope for another filter? You can just create your own envelope in the MSEG tab and then route that inside the mod matrix, just choose MSEG 1 for instance as source, then the amount (that's equal to the env amount knob) and the desired filter as destination.


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## Thlian (Sep 25, 2022)

Voider said:


> You mean a 3rd envelope for another filter? You can just create your own envelope in the MSEG tab and then route that inside the mod matrix, just choose MSEG 1 for instance as source, then the amount (that's equal to the env amount knob) and the desired filter as destination.


Yes, at first sight it looks like one have access to two filters but only one filter env and one amp env. Let`s see if I can understand the MSEG tabs


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## Voider (Sep 25, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Yes, at first sight it looks like one have access to two filters but only one filter env and one amp env. Let`s see if I can understand the MSEG tabs


Also make sure you turn down the "ENV AMT" knob on the filter that you want to control with your MSEG instead, so that it doesn't get affected by the default filter envelope:


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## Thlian (Sep 25, 2022)

Voider said:


> Also make sure you turn down the "ENV AMT" knob on the filter that you want to control with your MSEG instead, so that it doesn't get affected by the default filter envelope:


Oo okay..... 🤔 Got confused reading from the manual: Adjust the amount of filter envelope affecting the filter, through velocity. 
"Amount of filter envelope"? What? If it's set it's set isn't it? The envelope values are what it is, or is it how much you "open" the envelope for the filter?

I could ask this kind of questions for days.


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## Pier (Sep 25, 2022)

Yeah Dune is a bit weird.

Each voice has one envelope for the two filters. The envelope increases the values of the filter cutoff frequency. You can adjust how much of the filter envelope affects each filter with the ENV AMT knob.

By default, envelopes in Dune ignore velocity. If you want velocity to scale the envelope or the env amount, you need to go to the settings page:






If you want different envelopes for F1 and F2 you have to use an MSEG since Dune doesn't have any extra ADSR envelopes. MESGs are like envelopes you can draw with points and can have any shape you want. Each MSEG has its own velocity setting.


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## Voider (Sep 25, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Oo okay..... 🤔 Got confused reading from the manual: Adjust the amount of filter envelope affecting the filter, through velocity.
> "Amount of filter envelope"? What? If it's set it's set isn't it? The envelope values are what it is, or is it how much you "open" the envelope for the filter?


Yes the _filter envelope amount _in this case determines how much it opens the filter. The envelope itself is just a set of instructions (_take x seconds to go up, take y seconds to go down[...]_), but the range this is happening within is determined by the starting point (cutoff knob) and endpoint (env amt).


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## Thlian (Sep 26, 2022)

Voider said:


> Yes the _filter envelope amount _in this case determines how much it opens the filter. The envelope itself is just a set of instructions (_take x seconds to go up, take y seconds to go down[...]_), but the range this is happening within is determined by the starting point (cutoff knob) and endpoint (env amt).


I got it all wrong then, but it explains why I get the high end noise when the cutoff is the start point for the env opening that`s affected by the velocity.


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## liquidlino (Sep 26, 2022)

Tusker said:


> I gather the term "investment" is about the time investment and the learning curve, which means you could look at Falcon as one branch of a tree, and you need another branch, a complementary synth? Something which sounds good, sits on one page and builds your confidence as you learn?
> 
> One strategy would be to get a simpler subtractive synth, like Arturia's Jupiter or Gforce's OB-E.
> 
> Quite a different strategy could be to set up a template in Falcon which emulates such a simpler synth, and use only that template until you can zip around the interface with confidence. Maybe like the Mini but with a few more bells and whistles? Falcon can help you progress in little steps...


I have this approach. Falcon is my mega synth. But I mostly use Pigments, as it's much simpler and quicker. Only if I hit a dead end will I flick across to Falcon and rebuild from there. Or if I know I want the advanced features of Falcon from the outset. And then I have voltage modular, but I literally never use it since getting into orchestral. And lots of mini character synths like Juno, ms-20, which have lots of character and are quick to use. Dc-106 is my favourite character synth.


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## Thlian (Sep 28, 2022)

Can any of this create sub sine bass, but then not only the bass, but drops, riser and other. For instanse in an intense movie scene where there is almost nothing more than bass coming through the woofer.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 28, 2022)

Sure. Use a sine and a pitch envelope.


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## Pier (Sep 28, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Can any of this create sub sine bass, but then not only the bass, but drops, riser and other. For instanse in an intense movie scene where there is almost nothing more than bass coming through the woofer.


Yeah pretty much any synth can do that.


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## Saxer (Sep 28, 2022)

I'm lost in Falcon too. Great synth but too much menu/tabs diving for my impatience.

I like the synths with visible values. That are mainly (virtual) analog synths (with added wavetable or sample import).
I use presets as starting points mostly and change filter settings, envelopes, fx etc. I'm not that guy of "what happens if I modulate the waveform morphing of osc1 with the second osc...". I want results and go on with the music.

That's a problem I have with Dune 3 too: if I find a great preset and want to change something it's hard to find the structure in multi layered stacks and everything is arpeggiating and modulating in the background. But the sound of Dune 3 is amazing.

My most used synth aside from preset browsing/editing is Logics built in sampler. I have a lot of resampled stuff, the autosampler in Logic is fast and I know this thing. It has a mod-matrix and good filters and needs close to zero CPU. No built in fx. If I use external fx I can save it as a channel strip preset. My bread and butter machine.


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## Kevperry777 (Sep 28, 2022)

Saxer said:


> That's a problem I have with Dune 3 too: if I find a great preset and want to change something it's hard to find the structure in multi layered stacks and everything is arpeggiating and modulating in the background. But the sound of Dune 3 is amazing.


Agreed. Not the easiest synth to learn by “reverse engineering” patches. The virtual layers (first thing I look at), multiple arps and fx paths take some investigating. Also the fact that nothing animates means staring at that usually very lengthy mod matrix.…through that little graphic window. The power and sound is without question….the gui could make it easier for sure.

I’ve had fun with it lately trying to copy core sounds from Diva- with pretty close results for a synth noob like me.


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## Pier (Sep 28, 2022)

This is basically my philosophy for learning synths


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## Thlian (Sep 28, 2022)

I like the visual UI of Pigments. Haven`t used much time with it yet, but couldn`t find out how to assign LFOs, envelopes and to on to an other parameter.


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## Marcus Millfield (Sep 29, 2022)

I find the overall problem with the more complicated synths is that because of all the layers of options, tabs and menu's it is hard to predict what you need to do next and where that function should go to get the sound you're going for.


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## Pier (Sep 29, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I like the visual UI of Pigments. Haven`t used much time with it yet, but couldn`t find out how to assign LFOs, envelopes and to on to an other parameter.






Marcus Millfield said:


> I find the overall problem with the more complicated synths is that because of all the layers of options, tabs and menu's it is hard to predict what you need to do next and where that function should go to get the sound you're going for.


For me making presets is really a juggling of the sound, being able to hold the structure of the patch in my mind, and knowing the sweet spots/peculiarities of a particular synth.

I've taught a bit of synthesis to a couple of people that had never touched a synth before. My recommendation is always to pick one synth (any synth) and stick with it exclusively for at least 6 months. Do everything with it. Don't use any third party presets.


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## Marcus Millfield (Sep 29, 2022)

Pier said:


> For me making presets is really a juggling of the sound, being able to hold the structure of the patch in my mind, and knowing the sweet spots/peculiarities of a particular synth.
> 
> I've taught a bit of synthesis to a couple of people that had never touched a synth before. My recommendation is always to pick one synth (any synth) and stick with it exclusively for at least 6 months. Do everything with it. Don't use any third party presets.



That's good advice Pier and I've started to invest that time in Falcon since this week. Might as well tackle a big one first.


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## Pier (Sep 29, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> That's good advice Pier and I've started to invest that time in Falcon since this week. Might as well tackle a big one first.


I learned with Zebra which some people find intimidating so if you love Falcon, ignore what I'm about to write and go for it.

Personally, I think it might be wiser to start with Pigments, Hive, or Vital. These might not be the ultimate synths, you might not love them either at first sight, but these are great stepping stones. Simple architecture, easy workflow, lots of sonic possibilities, and animated UIs which some people might find very helpful.


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## Voider (Sep 29, 2022)

Pier said:


> Personally, I think it might be wiser to start with Pigments, Hive, or Vital. These might not be the ultimate synths


How dare you to put Pigments into a list with synths that you consider not to be ultimate


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## Pier (Sep 29, 2022)

Voider said:


> How dare you to put Pigments into a list with synths that you consider not to be ultimate


I wrote "might"!!!

MIGHT!!!


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## Marcus Millfield (Sep 29, 2022)

Pier said:


> Animated UIs which some people might find very helpful.



That's what turned me off and made me sell Pigments. I hate all those lights and movement blaring in my face all the time!

But I get what you're saying and agree. For me personally, I know my way around classic hardware synths and don't have any problem finding my way around the various softsynth emulations (Arturia V Collection, Repro, Diva etc). It's when you've got multiple layers in a less than user-friendly UI where I get confused about what, where and why. I can handle multi-timbral synths with large mod matrices, but there is a line for me and products like Falcon, Zebra and the like are over it. That's where your advise comes in handy: use it exclusively for a while.


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## Voider (Sep 29, 2022)

Pier said:


> I wrote "might"!!!
> 
> MIGHT!!!


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## doctoremmet (Sep 29, 2022)

But Pier is definitely right there’s also some pig in there.


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## Thlian (Oct 3, 2022)

Just shooting from the hip here, may contridict everything I've asked for. But what about Unfiltered Audio Lion? It can create some crazy stuff as well. Not given much attention though so there might be a reason for that. The UI is more like a modular thing, but it's a one page layout.


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## Paj (Oct 3, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Just shooting from the hip here, may contridict everything I've asked for. But what about Unfiltered Audio Lion? It can create some crazy stuff as well. Not given much attention though so there might be a reason for that. The UI is more like a modular thing, but it's a one page layout.


I picked up Lion last week at Plugin Alliance on sale (surprise) and was pleasantly surprised at the complexity and the unusual quality of the patches. It is its own beast, so don't expect it to be a traditional learning tool for synths in the broadest terms. Once things start making sense (or, by using the random feature, no sense of the workings needed at all), it's very easy to generate different sounds from any patch. The "one page" view isn't completely accurate. Quite a bit of the modules/effects thumb-scroll onto and off of the screen (i.e., not always visible). 

When I installed it (latest version 1.4) the presets did not install with it and, after tracking down the FAQ and suggested downloads at Plugin Alliance, I still had none of the presets. PA support quickly got back to me, said they were aware of the problem, suggested a fix before the developer addressed the issue (download and install the previous 1.3 version and then install v1.4 over it), and told me where to find the necessary downloads. Problem solved, and the presets are indeed worth having.

Be aware that PA is always having sales and providing vouchers and, because of sales and vouchers, Lion ended up only costing me $10. Hard to beat on many levels. I'm glad I got it. There's something about its sound. Not a Swiss Army Knife but it does stand out.

Paj
8^)


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 3, 2022)

Saxer said:


> I'm lost in Falcon too. Great synth but too much menu/tabs diving for my impatience.
> 
> I like the synths with visible values. That are mainly (virtual) analog synths (with added wavetable or sample import).
> I use presets as starting points mostly and change filter settings, envelopes, fx etc. I'm not that guy of "what happens if I modulate the waveform morphing of osc1 with the second osc...". I want results and go on with the music.
> ...


One good thing for reverse engineering Falcon patches is that there is a modulation section showing all of the modulation going on. The bad thing is that, for some reason I can't fathom, this section doesn't tell you what is being modulated! I mean, what exactly is the thinking here?


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 3, 2022)

Voider said:


>


You do know that he's the villain, right? I mean, right problem, wrong solution sort of villain; but he's still evil and sadistic.

But while I think it is a lot easier to create low tier, thin and dull, sounds in Pigments than top tier ones; its top tier is very lofty, and has weight and life to it.

It's a bit like Falcon; but for children!

(I'm going, I'm going...)


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## Thlian (Oct 3, 2022)

That's why I came to think about Lion. You can see what modulates what and very easy to create patches. You can go absolutely maniac with patch cables and nothing can go wrong! Except quality, but I don't get paid for this anyway....


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## rezoneight (Oct 3, 2022)

I'd also want to mention FabFilter Twin 2. Nice synth and makes it very easy to see the modulation routings. Hoping they've got an update in the works as Twin 2 hasn't been updated in years.


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## Pier (Oct 3, 2022)

rezoneight said:


> Hoping they've got an update in the works as Twin 2 hasn't been updated in years.


I asked FF on Twitter a while back and they hinted they were working on a new version of all their old plugins.

The've already released Volcano 3 and Timeless 3 so the next one is probably Twin 3 (or whatever it will be called).

A modern synth with the FF effects/filters and a new GUI could be killer.


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## rezoneight (Oct 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> I asked FF on Twitter a while back and they hinted they were working on a new version of all their old plugins.
> 
> The've already released Volcano 3 and Timeless 3 so the next one is probably Twin 3 (or whatever it will be called).
> 
> A modern synth with the FF effects/filters and a new GUI could be killer.


Yes agreed. Funny thing is I like the old GUIs of Volcano and Timeless with the crazy colors


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## Paj (Oct 3, 2022)

@Thlian: This is probably late in this thread to be bringing this up but Cameron (Venus Theory) has a nice video introducing ten free synths that cover a lot of territory. This might be more useful to your original intent than something like the two hundred free synths covered by Sonic Sirius. Cameron makes presets and videos for a number of synth developers.


You've been getting great suggestions here and you needed to start a post like this to get some quick, focused information because, as far as I can tell, synth VI territory is massive (no pun intended) in content and expansive in approaches and directions to take. Be thankful that these developers are not working on WMDs, ransomware, or hacking blockchains. I'd venture that even the hardcore "proper" synth aficionados probably have some very "improper" synths that they're fond of. Pros use and do whatever it takes to get the job done---and to have fun.

My advice is to explore and enjoy whatever you choose on your way to the one after that---because that's probably going to happen. Enjoy the grain (again, no pun intended), grasshopper.

Paj
8^)


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## sostenuto (Oct 3, 2022)

Hoping for some improved clarity by Blk Fri ??? ( _Post 300 ?_ ). 

Had 'current' best answer long before joining VI-C Forums _ 'It depends' 🤪


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## Joe Grant (Oct 28, 2022)

Great content in this thread...thanks all.

I am also exploring the idea of adding a HW synth to my home studio. I've narrowed it down to 5 options.

For those with experience, if you could choose only one what would you choose and why?

1. Oberheim OBX8
2. Sequential Prophet 10
3. Sequential Rev 2
4. Nord Stage 3
5. Nord Wave 2


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 28, 2022)

jgrant0173 said:


> Great content in this thread...thanks all.
> 
> I am also exploring the idea of adding a HW synth to my home studio. I've narrowed it down to 5 options.
> 
> ...


What is your goal for your hardware synth?

I mean, the first two listed (esp P10) can't do very much (e.g., no LFO or no LFO sync), but sound great doing what they do. There's also software emulations that get pretty close to those two. The first two are also physically very large compared to the others, and rely on VCOs instead of DCOs etc. - so are intended to be more "drifty"/"vintage" sounding.

Will the HW synth be your master keyboard? Is the HW intended more for sound design or playing alongside a rock band? Etc.


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## Joe Grant (Oct 28, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> What is your goal for your hardware synth?
> 
> I mean, the first two listed (esp P10) can't do very much (e.g., no LFO or no LFO sync), but sound great doing what they do. There's also software emulations that get pretty close to those two. The first two are also physically very large compared to the others, and rely on VCOs instead of DCOs etc. - so are intended to be more "drifty"/"vintage" sounding.
> 
> Will the HW synth be your master keyboard?


Space isn't an issue. I have a midi keyboard that I use currently for my VSTs and I know there are plenty of vst synths that I can add (Omnisphere). Its really just about adding a new piece that I can experiment with in my recordings. In the case of adding a hardware synth, I am leaning toward one of the NORDs since they seem to be more versatile (great piano, organ patches). Then at some point, add a more organic (not sure if that's the correct terminology) synth like one of the sequentials or Oberheim.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 28, 2022)

jgrant0173 said:


> Space isn't an issue. I have a midi keyboard that I use currently for my VSTs and I know there are plenty of vst synths that I can add (Omnisphere). Its really just about adding a new piece that I can experiment with in my recordings. In the case of adding a hardware synth, I am leaning toward one of the NORDs since they seem to be more versatile (great piano, organ patches). Then at some point, add a more organic (not sure if that's the correct terminology) synth like one of the sequentials or Oberheim.


Than you have answered your own question, no?

It is kinda odd you mention wanting the Nord Stage for the piano and organ while asking for our opinion about synths... 

For pure synth, I would recommend the Nord Wave or Prophet Rev2 as both are far more versatile than the P10 or Oberheim. I have both a P6 and Rev2 since day 1 and know for a fact the Rev2 can be as warm as a P6, and therefore can get close to that lush VCO, with the added benefit of the mod matrix which gives you tons of modulation options.

I do think both the P10 and Oberheim are superb machines and sound great, but at a cost.


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## Joe Grant (Oct 28, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Than you have answered your own question, no?
> 
> It is kinda odd you mention wanting the Nord Stage for the piano and organ while asking for our opinion about synths...
> 
> ...


You may be correct...lol. Sorry, I am a guitar player (and new to synths), but enjoy playing and composing with piano and like the sounds that come from a synth. Yes, I was looking at the Nord Stage 3 because it has the A1 synth engine, but also the other features. My current midi keyboard is 61 keys so I was thinking an 88 key version as it would serve two purposes (full 88 keys for piano) and the synth engine. I believe the Wave only comes in 61 key version. So maybe a Stage 3 + Wave or Rev 2 Combo is the way to go. Thanks for the input. It is very helpful.


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## Joe Grant (Oct 28, 2022)

One more thing....if cost wasn't a factor, which would you choose the OB or the 10? Is there a case to be made (beyond cost) to go with the Rev 2 over them?


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 28, 2022)

jgrant0173 said:


> You may be correct...lol. Sorry, I am a guitar player (and new to synths), but enjoy playing and composing with piano and like the sounds that come from a synth. Yes, I was looking at the Nord Stage 3 because it has the A1 synth engine, but also the other features. My current midi keyboard is 61 keys so I was thinking an 88 key version as it would serve two purposes (full 88 keys for piano) and the synth engine. I believe the Wave only comes in 61 key version. So maybe a Stage 3 + Wave or Rev 2 Combo is the way to go. Thanks for the input. It is very helpful.


From what I've heard from the A1, it sounds like a lovely synth. Never played it myself though. I did tried a Stage 3 while looking for a new stage piano and it certainly is a great stage instrument.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 28, 2022)

jgrant0173 said:


> One more thing....if cost wasn't a factor, which would you choose the OB or the 10? Is there a case to be made (beyond cost) to go with the Rev 2 over them?


Yes, there is. Although the P10 and OB are among the best sounding polyphonic analog synths of today, their architecture is pretty simple. The Rev2 has the advantage of not only 4 LFO's, but a rather large mod matrix which makes routing and therefore modulating every control possible. This makes it far more flexible in what it can do. The "downside" (if you would call it that) is the fact they used DCOs which need a bit of pushing and pulling to make them come alive. That's where the mod matrix will come in handy too.

The Rev2 has some problems of its own and the buildquality isn't like the P10 or OB, but for the price it can't be beat, except maybe for the Take 5.

Oh, and I'd go for the P10, but I'm a Prophet fanboy


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## styphonthal (Oct 28, 2022)

jgrant0173 said:


> Great content in this thread...thanks all.
> 
> I am also exploring the idea of adding a HW synth to my home studio. I've narrowed it down to 5 options.
> 
> ...


I have the obx8 and the p10, but do not have the others. I would choose the oberheim obx8. Stereo output w/ different settings, the different filter models. 

Both have great core sound, knob per function layout, nice keyboards, bitimbre (stacked/split)....


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