# I could use some legal advice about my music



## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

In order to bring this question to light, I first have to admit how lacking my sense of business management is. I don't know, after maybe a hundred paid commissions for television commercials, short films, documentaries, etc etc, that I have ever signed or had someone sign a contract for the work OR registered a single piece of music with the copyright office. It's always been a case of someone needs music, I say I'll do it for this one-time fee, I produce it, they pay for it, end of story. I've never considered myself a publisher at all, and yet, no one else owns publishing on any of my stuff because I've never signed it away. I am very ignorant of how most of that stuff works and simplicity has served me fairly well. Now onto my current situation/question.

I wrote music to accompany video for a production company, for a sort of, coming-together piece about our community. It was paid for by our local Economic Development Corporation. I was paid by the production company who is my oldest, most loyal client. Really good guys. So I wrote it for a flat fee and got paid. End of story.....almost. Then a year later or so, another production company approached me. They were also hired by the Economic Development Corporation to do a video similar to the last one, basically about the same thing. that production company came to me because they knew I had written the music for the first piece and what everyone wanted was the same music, but it needed some other parts added to it and it needed to be edited down. I said "sure, no problem". Again, a flat fee, I got paid and everyone was happy.

Today I got a text from the first production company. It's not a big deal, but they were telling me that a local marketing agency wanted to know information about the music. In particular, they wanted the name of the piece of music (I probably named it something fancy like "EDC master 2") as well as it's length, the publisher's name, and the composer's name. Other than the fact that there never is a real name to any of my stuff, I have no idea what to put as the "publisher". Do I put me? Any help would be much appreciated.


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## mc_deli (Nov 16, 2016)

I am crying inside. You have done a hundred paid jobs but never registered anything, no idea about copyright, your rights... is that right?

On one hand. Great that you have so many gigs. On the other hand, just shows how dismal the music industry is at mentoring talent. It is a crime that you end up in this position. On the third hand, WFT dude, how did you not see this coming... in the US FFS... you probably have a few more skeletons floating around in those hundred gigs. No liability insurance I guess, no idea if there are other rights conflicts with any of your work, and and no idea if you have been missing out on potential royalty payments...?

Someone more familiar with the US system should give you more clues. Good luck.


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## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

Well seeing as how I've never granted any permissions in writing to anyone, I would guess my biggest and only risk is missing out on royalty payments. I've never sold the same piece of music twice and it's almost all been sold in a local market. I'm guessing that they probably want the info so as to license it for their own needs but I don't really know.


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## chillbot (Nov 16, 2016)

You are a member of a PRO? (Please please say yes... it's free in the US. If not, join.)

Join your PRO as a publisher (in addition to joining as a writer). You have to pay a fee I forget what it is, $100-$125 something like that but it's a one-time fee. Make up a name any name will do. A lot of people use their street name or something... Main Street Music Publishing. That's the name you put as a publisher. As soon as the name is confirmed as a unique and accepted you can put it down, don't need to wait for all the paperwork to finish.

This is not entirely your fault... if any of your stuff has ever aired anywhere they should have gotten the composer/publisher info from you and it should have been in a contract. Even if you're just doing corporate videos or whatever you should always have this in your contract and always have a contract. Royalties are free money and without knowing specifics of what you're doing I would bet anything you would have made at least enough to offset the publishing fee by now...? Even if your video never "aired" but was on the internet you can still get royalties. Either way it sounds like you should have a publishing company. Don't worry it won't mess up your taxes it's not a real company, any royalties you make will be listed under your name and SS#.


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## studiostuff (Nov 16, 2016)

This discussion always brings out massive BS advice and spitballing... IF you could use some legal advice about your music, the ONLY place to get it is from an experienced music biz attorney. Full stop. End of thread. Seriously.


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## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

I am indeed on ASCAP as a writer. I think if I remember correctly, I tried to register as a publisher at the same time but it got flagged because I used my own name for it. I never did make the fix. Any advice as to what to tell the marketing company for publisher? I mean, there basically isn't one right? And I've never signed anything away so.....?


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2016)

If it were me, I'd call ASCAP and / or follow Chilbot's advice.

Congrats on all the gigs.

Another thing you could do is buy this book, either hard copy or Kindle or something: This Business of Music It's boring but indispensable. Like advice on forums.

*This Business of Music, 10th Edition Hardcover – June 26, 2007*
by M. William Krasilovsky Sidney Shemel & 2 more


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## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

Thanks guys, much appreciated!


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 16, 2016)

studiostuff said:


> This discussion always brings out massive BS advice and spitballing...


Like this one?:


> IF you could use some legal advice about your music, the ONLY place to get it is from an experienced music biz attorney. Full stop. End of thread. Seriously.


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## chillbot (Nov 16, 2016)

I WOULDN'T WANT TO SAY ANYTHING ON THIS SUBJECT I'M NOT A LAWYER SORRY.

Though if I were to say anything I probably would have said go register as a publisher at ASCAP's website it's super easy and I think even cheaper than BMI. I might have suggested registering as an "individual/sole proprietor" and then I would have suggested telling the marketing company the name of the publisher you just registered. But I didn't say any of that.


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## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I WOULDN'T WANT TO SAY ANYTHING ON THIS SUBJECT I'M NOT A LAWYER SORRY.
> 
> Though if I were to say anything I probably would have said go register as a publisher at ASCAP's website it's super easy and I think even cheaper than BMI. I might have suggested registering as an "individual/sole proprietor" and then I would have suggested telling the marketing company the name of the publisher you just registered. But I didn't say any of that.


Man, I really wish you had been able to tell me that. Then I might have just done that...just now.


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2016)

chillbot said:


> But I didn't say any of that.



What happens if Studio E follows your non-advice and ends up -- IN HELL???


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## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

JohnG said:


> What happens if Studio E follows your non-advice and ends up -- IN HELL???


So silly John, I reserved my spot there a long time ago.


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2016)

Studio E said:


> I reserved my spot there a long time ago.



Next to the bar and the pool table?


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## Desire Inspires (Nov 16, 2016)

studiostuff said:


> This discussion always brings out massive BS advice and spitballing... IF you could use some legal advice about your music, the ONLY place to get it is from an experienced music biz attorney. Full stop. End of thread. Seriously.



Please, hire a lawyer.


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## studiostuff (Nov 16, 2016)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Like this one?:


I was talking about you, Jdig. You think a limp attempt a wit helps this guy.

The OP is an idiot to keep asking.


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2016)

Calling him an idiot is not "musicians helping musicians." There are some very experienced people on the forum and he's entitled to do what he wants.

Besides, he's obviously not an idiot.


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## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Next to the bar and the pool table?


Haha, I wish I could afford that nice of a placement.


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## Studio E (Nov 16, 2016)

studiostuff said:


> I was talking about you, Jdig. You think a limp attempt a wit helps this guy.
> 
> The OP is an idiot to keep asking.


Thanks for the kind words. It speaks volumes of your own social intellect. My reasons are my own for knowing so little on the business side of things. That said, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I have a full time career outside the music business. It keeps me constantly studying and testing, and I also run a recording studio which is another field entirely. Your comment was undermined by your need to call names. Sad.


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## Kony (Nov 17, 2016)

studiostuff said:


> This discussion always brings out massive BS advice and spitballing... IF you could use some legal advice about your music, the ONLY place to get it is from an experienced music biz attorney. Full stop. End of thread. Seriously.


Seriously, are you a lawyer touting for work...? I only ask because in what way does this thread have any impact on you to the point you make the comment you made?



JohnG said:


> Calling him an idiot is not "musicians helping musicians." There are some very experienced people on the forum and he's entitled to do what he wants.
> 
> Besides, he's obviously not an idiot.


Totally agree with this!


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## doctornine (Nov 17, 2016)

Studio E said:


> Thanks for the kind words. It speaks volumes of your own social intellect. My reasons are my own for knowing so little on the business side of things. That said, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I have a full time career outside the music business. It keeps me constantly studying and testing, and I also run a recording studio which is another field entirely. Your comment was undermined by your need to call names. Sad.



Sorry - this isn't an attempt at name calling or being insulting to the OP, but honestly, I couldn't find a face palm big enough. 
How can you be so willing to essentially throw earnings/money away by not being with a PRO ? 

I just don't get it.


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## Studio E (Nov 17, 2016)

I already stated that I'm registered as a writer. I am now registered as a sole proprietor publisher as well with ASCAP.


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## Morodiene (Nov 17, 2016)

JohnG said:


> If it were me, I'd call ASCAP and / or follow Chilbot's advice.
> 
> Congrats on all the gigs.
> 
> ...


Is there an issue with it being 8 years old? I assume there have been changes in copyright laws and in the industry since this edition was written. That doesn't mean it's invalid, I just was wondering if perhaps there is a more current book you could recommend.


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## Studio E (Nov 17, 2016)

I understand that this whole situation may seem appalling to some, especially those making their living from their compositions. I just wanted to shed a little light to make you understand where I'm coming from. For one, when I started and almost still, the work I have done has been on a small local level where I am essentially competing with whatever production companies can download. For two, since my very first gig, I have almost always worked for people who I had known a long time, generally as friends, before I ever worked with them. Call me crazy, but I've only ever almost been screwed over once and a single letter from my attorney straightened that up. For three, this is not my primary source of income. In fact, not even close. I am a construction code inspector. I bust the balls of shifty contractors by day, 40+ hours a week. I also run a home studio business where I record and mix bands, provide ADR services, etc. Also, admittedly, a LOT of the music I write doesn't even have a particular melody. Sure, sometimes it does, but much of it just seems like throw-away music to me. I treat it like a baby while I'm developing it, but when it's done it's done. It really hasn't ever occurred to me that someone would want to use a specific piece of music (of mine) for a purpose other than what it was originally intended. Probably 60+% of my paid commissions have been for local television 30 second spots. I know the production companies I work with well enough to not worry about them reusing or selling my music down the road to someone else. They are that good of friends and acquaintances. All that said, the piece of music in question was indeed developed for a marketing agency through one of my friendly production companies. My guess is that they either want to use it further for something else, or are concerned after having sold it down the road. Either way, it sounds like I'm about to find out more and soon. I'm not at all concerned with anything legal biting me in the butt because I've never signed anything allowing anyone to distribute my music. As ASCAP states, with no publisher, I am the publisher by default. That said, I am now registered as a publisher and passed that info along to them. I appreciate all the helpful words and don't fault anyone for their shock. It just is what it is. Although this all means something to me, it's not my everything at all and if one of my tracks is making someone rich on the other side of the globe, and I never find out about it, I'll still be just fine. If I do find out about it, I will certainly pursue whatever I might have coming.


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## Morodiene (Nov 17, 2016)

Studio E said:


> I understand that this whole situation may seem appalling to some, especially those making their living from their compositions. I just wanted to shed a little light to make you understand where I'm coming from. For one, when I started and almost still, the work I have done has been on a small local level where I am essentially competing with whatever production companies can download. For two, since my very first gig, I have almost always worked for people who I had known a long time, generally as friends, before I ever worked with them. Call me crazy, but I've only ever almost been screwed over once and a single letter from my attorney straightened that up. For three, this is not my primary source of income. In fact, not even close. I am a construction code inspector. I bust the balls of shifty contractors by day, 40+ hours a week. I also run a home studio business where I record and mix bands, provide ADR services, etc. Also, admittedly, a LOT of the music I write doesn't even have a particular melody. Sure, sometimes it does, but much of it just seems like throw-away music to me. I treat it like a baby while I'm developing it, but when it's done it's done. It really hasn't ever occurred to me that someone would want to use a specific piece of music (of mine) for a purpose other than what it was originally intended. Probably 60+% of my paid commissions have been for local television 30 second spots. I know the production companies I work with well enough to not worry about them reusing or selling my music down the road to someone else. They are that good of friends and acquaintances. All that said, the piece of music in question was indeed developed for a marketing agency through one of my friendly production companies. My guess is that they either want to use it further for something else, or are concerned after having sold it down the road. Either way, it sounds like I'm about to find out more and soon. I'm not at all concerned with anything legal biting me in the butt because I've never signed anything allowing anyone to distribute my music. As ASCAP states, with no publisher, I am the publisher by default. That said, I am now registered as a publisher and passed that info along to them. I appreciate all the helpful words and don't fault anyone for their shock. It just is what it is. Although this all means something to me, it's not my everything at all and if one of my tracks is making someone rich on the other side of the globe, and I never find out about it, I'll still be just fine. If I do find out about it, I will certainly pursue whatever I might have coming.


While the concept of "simplest is best" may ring true for you, I do think that having a contract is a good idea. I teach piano and voice privately, and while I'm sure my students would be fine without a policy/contract, I have had one for most of my teaching years because misunderstandings happen. Having this in writing from the outset protects both me and my students. We are all on the same page from day one, and should a question arise, we both have a document we agreed to from the start to refer to.

So it's not that I don't trust them, or I am being unreasonable, it's more that is looks professional and often keeps things clear. Especially when dealing with friends, where the friendship could be jeopardized by a misunderstanding. I think it's a just good business practice, and you do have a business.

I'm just getting into composing, though, so I'm in the same boat as you - not really understanding how all of this works.


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## Kony (Nov 17, 2016)

Studio E said:


> For one, when I started and almost still, the work I have done has been on a small local level where I am essentially competing with whatever production companies can download.


Meaning no disrespect, but surely this applies to everybody?



Studio E said:


> It really hasn't ever occurred to me that someone would want to use a specific piece of music (of mine) for a purpose other than what it was originally intended.


I bet the guy who wrote the music originally for a bank commercial, but subsequently used as the theme for Curb Your Enthusiasm, thought that as well


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## JohnG (Nov 17, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Is there an issue with it being 8 years old? I assume there have been changes in copyright laws and in the industry since this edition was written. That doesn't mean it's invalid, I just was wondering if perhaps there is a more current book you could recommend.



I have like the 5th edition and haven't heard of any law changes that would dramatically affect what he / we do, although there are lots of court cases since then that have rocked things pretty hard. There are always some changes somewhere -- copyright is not a single law -- but the basic approach and the negotiating stances -- a lot of what's covered in the book -- don't change much or at all.

That's why I'd call / check out ASCAP or BMI's websites. They have model agreements and they have current info. He's already _in_ ASCAP so why not start there? It's free. And chilbot appears to be dispensing good advice.


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## chillbot (Nov 17, 2016)

I actually agree with whats-his-toes... none of us should be dispensing legal advice. Though in no way do I consider "join ascap as a publisher" to be legal advice, that's just basic composer 101.

The thing is, especially depending on where you live, it can be very difficult (and expensive) to find a lawyer that specializes in this, and one that is actually knows their sh*t. It's not that simple. It doesn't hurt at all to ask a few questions first, you may get some answers or you may end up with more questions you need to ask. It's all part of researching the subject.

So here I go with my horrible non-legal advice.

A contract can be anything... ideally you would get a music lawyer to draw up something fantastic and ironproof. These friends of yours may or may not appreciate that but they'll probably go along with it. If you're not going to do that, a better option than having no contract at all is just to spell it out in plain english on a sheet of paper and you both sign it. Put it in your files for your records and for your taxes.

For the sum of "X" amount of dollars "Chillbot" has provided "Chill's Buddy's Production Co." the following track(s): ___________________. The publisher should be listed as "Chillbot's Chill Publishing Co." and the writer should be listed as "Chillbot". Signed, dated. By both of you.

It should be a bit more in-depth than that but you get the idea. There are a bunch of other things you can put in a contract such as payment schedules and screen credit, whatever.

The most important is a sync license... which in essence tells them I'm giving you my music to use along with your production throughout eternity but you _cannot use it in another production_ and I retain ownership of said music and can resell and use it elsewhere if I want to. Unless they ask for it to be exclusive, which is common for a period of a few years at which point it becomes non-exclusive.

Again, for a start you could just spell this out in plain english. It might not be fool-proof legalese but it's better than having no contract.

Or, take a look at the attached sync license contract and modify it to your needs.

I would start with John's book... if you can get through it... this is just a primer and doesn't scratch the surface. Also you don't seem like you're all that concerned about the sync license... you don't necessarily have to be if you're comfortable with it. You be you. Somewhere down the line someone may take advantage of you but at this level it may not be worth the trouble to fight them about it. It seems like you're pretty content where you are.

Now you may roast me for half-ass legal advice.


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## patrick76 (Nov 17, 2016)

studiostuff said:


> I was talking about you, Jdig. You think a limp attempt a wit helps this guy.
> 
> The OP is an idiot to keep asking.


Way out of line.


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## thov72 (Nov 17, 2016)

Studio E said:


> a LOT of the music I write doesn't even have a particular melody


yeah right.....I listened to your music from some of those what´s-it-called champaign pens to lens thing. Great stuff.
Apart from that, I actually find it pretty cool that you made money like that, maybe ther wouldn´t even have been royalties....? I mean look at me.....I´m a royalty-hungry BMI member (8ok, only a month or so) but haven´t made any money yet ...at all )


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## Mike Fox (Nov 17, 2016)

studiostuff said:


> The OP is an idiot to keep asking.



Personally, I would rather be an idiot than be a dick to people.


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