# Scotland



## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

OK gents. what's the betting here?

The whole currency and markets are apparently collapsing as I write. The pound lost over 1% against the dollar this morning.

I don't know. I don't think Scots will vote Yes but it's getting too close to call.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

Why wouldn't we?


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

Ray are you going Republic if you vote Yes? If you go Republic I may move up there because that would mean you lose the Queen.

:mrgreen:


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

I can't answer for anyone else but I will say, it was so stupid of the no campaigners concentrating on Alex Salmond. I've met next to no one voting yes who even like the man. The problem is westminster and old etonians.


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## JohnG (Sep 8, 2014)

Pound and stock market reactions to poll

http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-k-poun ... TopStories


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

John,
The national news channels here have just not been taking this issue seriously enough.
Sky News have been running stupid cut and tuned songs being sung by Salmond and Cameron. Stupid stupid stupid!!!!!!!!!!
Before today I've hardly seen it as a lead story and it cannot be anything but the most important issue in the UK for centuries.

The ramifications of it will go on regardless of the outcome. The UK government have sleepwalked into this situation.


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeDDXoUK4cY

This one is the one. I really don't know. :lol: 

Oh yeah. Cameron is a liability. Said all along. Could see it coming.

If Scotland vote Yes, then Dave and Ed will be put to the sword in a millisecond. If Scotland vote No and it's really tight, the bad feeling that might cause doesn't bear thinking about. It will just go on and on. It won't be Welcome To Scotland. It will be Welcome to Pandoras Box.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

But I'm still not getting an answer to my question and neither is anyone else here.
I do not have any anglophobia. I work for an English company and enjoy my relationship with all the English people in that company. My wife is English but!
Why shouldn't we?


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 8, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Why shouldn't we?



(i've sworn myself off the heavier subject threads for now in an attempt not to waste my life away, I know I'm going to regret even this toe-dip, so forgive if I retreat rapidly)

My question in return is this - why not Wales and Northern Ireland too? I presume the answer there is that economically they're not in such a strong position. And the implication is that Scotland believes it is. So.... if this thinking is right... the logic goes that when things are good, countries want to go it alone thanks very much. When they're not so good, they could do with the help from the others thanks very much.

I think we're missing an important concept somewhere....


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 8, 2014)

There's no need for Scotland to withdraw. They already have an independent World Cup team. Unfortunately, they aren't good enough to qualify of late.

If anything, people should be pushing to bring the UK together. With a single UK team, they might be able to pool enough talent to compete on the world stage. And then England and Scotland (and Wales, and Ireland) could have (and maybe score) some common goals.


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## TGV (Sep 8, 2014)

I think Scotland wants independence because they think they'll get richer and they hate Cameron's guts. But that's not a reason for a separation. Cameron will be gone in a few years, and wealth is fickle. They'll have to live outside the EU and Schengen for quite a few years to come.

Besides, you can do this once, but the 50% in favor stands a serious chance of fucking up the future of the 50% who are against, while the reverse is not the case. It looks pretty imbalanced to me.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

No wonder this is happening when I read these replies.
TGV says "I think Scotland wants"
Excuse me but this highlights the problem for us all everywhere. We abbreviate anything and everything to a one word tyranny. In this case and in actual fact it is "the people in" Scotland who all have a single vote to cast. It is up to the politicians (supposedly in the best interest of the many) to give POSITIVE reasons for their advice. Not concentrate on the NEGATIVES if we don't take it and that is what's gone wrong here. We continue to blame "the BANKS" for bringing our economy to its knees when we know it to be an individual or small group of people within such organisations who pull the strings. We allow ourselves to be beaten by these smoke screens time after time. IMHO it is now too late for a painless solution.


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## chimuelo (Sep 8, 2014)

Who knows what will happen, I just hope it doesn't cause any
harm to the working men and women of the UK.
As far as the ruling class goes I am sure they'll be fine, as like 
in the USA, none of the laws passed ever affect them, such regulations 
are needed for these commoners that are a constant source of irritation.




image post


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

TGV @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Cameron will be gone in a few years,



He may be gone in 9 days. :|


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> IMHO it is now too late for a painless solution.



Ray, why shouldn't Scotland go independent. Absolutely no reason at all.

What's going to happen to say, Weir International? What's going to happen to Standard Life? What happens to Scotland's part of the National Debt? Salmond says it will be not be paid if Scotland cannot share the pound. What happens if Scotland defaults on that debt? What will any future borrowing costs be?

What is the currency going to be? What's it going to be worth against a basket of currencies? How is the National Health Service going to operate? What happens to the State Pension for younger people of Scotland in the future?

Who is going to check the borders for illegal immigrants that decide that that big old border is an easier option than Dover?

And what's going to happen to kilts in the future????

Talking to two Scottish friends of mine today and they are livid that Scots in England don't get a vote.


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> image post



You won't get a lot of redistribution from her if they have to flee to America.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

Adrian,
When are we going to accept we do not have an empire anymore? When are we going to ditch Trident and stop getting involved in other countries business? That's more important to me than trying to be Robin to the US Batman. I'm not a pacifist in any way but.
Also, the last time I checked, the Bank of England is not controlled by the government of the day in Westminster. I doubt the controlling interests in said bank would chance any future default on the say so of the government of that day. Tell me I'm wrong.


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 8, 2014)

It's an historic opportunity (once in many generations I'd suggest) and I wonder whether the sheer weight of that responsibility will weigh heavily on our friends north of the border to vote yes. Good luck to you all. Whatever you chaps decide is right for Scotland.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

Stephen,
I think that attitude generally would have quelled the rebellion so much better than finger wagging, 
Thanks


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## bupper (Sep 8, 2014)

Its all too easy to try & tell the scots what to do but the reality is that if the vote is yes.....North sea gas, The queen's beloved balmoral & hollyrood; & all usurped land will return to scotland! The land reform will really take a long time to put in place. The biggest problem for england is obviously the gas. Now they are at economical war with russia (who own most of the gas europe need) they will NEED the north sea fields & so they really need a no vote & are now starting to get really worried about losing. All scots should vote as their hearts tell them & not be bullied by these idiot politicians from westminster


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 8, 2014)

Stephen Baysted @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> It's an historic opportunity (once in many generations I'd suggest) and I wonder whether the sheer weight of that responsibility will weigh heavily on our friends north of the border to vote yes. Good luck to you all. Whatever you chaps decide is right for Scotland.


I think Mr. Baysted has the right of it.

I have been following this issue from here in the States and wish you Scots all the best in this historic moment.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

Thanks guys, you've made my mind up.


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

bupper @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> All scots should vote as their hearts tell them & not be bullied by these idiot politicians from westminster



What you think the Scots don't have idiot politicians in Holyrood?


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Thanks guys, you've made my mind up.



Ray you're not being treated as our token Scot you know. I hope you realize that. My best friend for years at school was from Edinburgh and we had plenty of fights, but there's more to life than independence. :lol:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 8, 2014)

"Ray, why shouldn't Scotland go independent. Absolutely no reason at all."

The reasons are economic - it's a very risky idea for the Scots.



> But Canada has its own currency, which means that its government can’t run out of money, that it can bail out its own banks if necessary, and more. An independent Scotland wouldn’t. And that makes a huge difference.



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opini ... pan-region


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

Token Scot?
I prefer to agree Geldof's opinion. Tomorrow, I go to size up the first installation of a new product range our company is marketing. You'd have thought there were enough opportunities in England not to have the token Scotsman break in to a particular market :wink:


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## TGV (Sep 8, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> What you think the Scots don't have idiot politicians in Holyrood?


And don't forget the Royal Bank of Scotland...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 8, 2014)

> In short, everything that has happened in Europe since 2009 or so has demonstrated that sharing a currency without sharing a government is very dangerous. In economics jargon, fiscal and banking integration are essential elements of an optimum currency area. And an independent Scotland using Britain’s pound would be in even worse shape than euro countries, which at least have some say in how the European Central Bank is run.
> 
> I find it mind-boggling that Scotland would consider going down this path after all that has happened in the last few years. If Scottish voters really believe that it’s safe to become a country without a currency, they have been badly misled.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> "Ray, why shouldn't Scotland go independent. Absolutely no reason at all."
> 
> The reasons are economic - it's a very risky idea for the Scots.



Which Scots? Do you mean me, someone who doesn't care for the bagpipes or that dirge "Flower of Scotland" should worry about money?
The only folks worrying are those unwilling to work and expecting handouts.


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## AC986 (Sep 8, 2014)

What you have to remember though is the thought that this is your one and only chance for about 400 years and that is a huge temptation.

A lot if my ancestry is Irish and also from the Traquair area of Scotland. I would be very tempted if I was living in Scotland and 30 years younger.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 8, 2014)

TGV @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> And don't forget the Royal Bank of Scotland...



There are thousands of people working for RBS that had absolutely nothing to do with its problems. Those that did bring it to it's knees are sunning themselves on the Med for the rest of their lives instead of being locked up. We should not allow these people to hide behind the Organisation or Company's name. People make decisions not companies.


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 8, 2014)

I have an idea...

The US has admitted 50 states since 1787, which is a period of 227 years, or an average of one every 4.54 years. We admitted 16 in the 1700s, 29 in the 1800s, and 5 in the 1900s, yet none in the 2000s. It's been 55 years since we adopted Alaska and Hawaii - the longest gap in our history. We're way overdue. 

Welcome Scotland. We can help you REALLY piss off the English government and the royal line. 

What's in it for the US? We can give an ENORMOUS "Up Yours" to old King George. Yeah, we still have it out for that guy.

Of course, after Ireland, Wales, the Canadian Provinces, New Zealand, and the Australian States join up, you might eventually have to re-partner with England as we add our 69th state. But that could take a while. 

Enjoy your independence while is lasts, however briefly.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 8, 2014)

> Which Scots? Do you mean me, someone who doesn't care for the bagpipes or that dirge "Flower of Scotland" should worry about money?
> The only folks worrying are those unwilling to work and expecting handouts.



You're joking, right? This is just an attempt to make my head explode?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 9, 2014)

Nick,
The people most worried about their jobs are the Scottish members of the London Parliament. Cushy life and surviving on a salary plus expenses where not being the party in power has it's benefits. No pressure until now. In fact, the whole parliamentary voting system ensures that, even with gigantic swing votes at elections there are never more than 30% of sitting MP's at risk of losing their seat. For most, it is a job for life regardless of popular opinion. This can't be right.


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## AC986 (Sep 9, 2014)

It's a lose lose situation for quite a few paties in Scotland now, regardless of who wins this referendum.

If it's a Yes vote how many people will vote SNP in the long term. Scotland is a Labour country and Labour will be running Scotland.

If if it's a No vote, then Labour will win back a lot of SNP seats at national and local government level.

Cameron loses this either way. He can't win on the short or long run. If Scotland goes independent, the Queen will cut his head off. Maybe even personally.


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## AC986 (Sep 9, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> > Which Scots? Do you mean me, someone who doesn't care for the bagpipes or that dirge "Flower of Scotland" should worry about money?
> > The only folks worrying are those unwilling to work and expecting handouts.
> 
> 
> ...



That's not difficult to achieve though is it. :mrgreen:


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## AC986 (Sep 9, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> you might eventually have to re-partner with England as we add our 69th state.)



Great idea Jon!

Does mean we can go out and buy guns? Great! 

And ammo?


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 9, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> Does mean we can go out and buy guns? Great!
> 
> And ammo?



Ammo? We don't need no stinking ammo!

Haven't you watched Hollywood films? In America, you can shoot and shoot and shoot and never have to reload.


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## AC986 (Sep 9, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> adriancook @ Tue Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Does mean we can go out and buy guns? Great!
> ...



Oh great joy. What a wonderful dream. ~o)


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 9, 2014)

Adrian,

This short webisode will show you how guns work in America:

http://colcrush.com/movie/index/00020601


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 9, 2014)

> That's not difficult to achieve though is it. Mr. Green



The whole point is that an independent country without its own currency is totally *arsed*, as you Brits like to say.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 9, 2014)

This is your topic Adrian, are we still on it?


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## JohnG (Sep 9, 2014)

It's a little bit complex to pick at bit by bit, I'd hazard. Judging by the financial market jitters -- they tend to be supremely dispassionate and objective -- it looks a bit gloomy.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 9, 2014)

Here's where we are now.
The west of Scotland with the highest population mass in the country are beginning to swing towards the thought of having a Scotland run by the Labour party rather than a Westminster parliament full of Conservatives. Sensible economically? It doesn't matter right in the here and now because that one vision trumps economics. I said it before already, even a NO vote will not stop this runaway train. Exciting times no? New world order with no UK trying to be a big fish. Hope you're all still tuning in for the Ryder Cup


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## AC986 (Sep 9, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> This is your topic Adrian, are we still on it?



Still on it Ray.

Yes I think maybe I suggested this before. The way I see it is a Yes vote and Scotland reverts back to its original self and the Labour Party eventually displace the SNP. A no vote and Scotland goes totally Labour anyway because then logically what is the point of the SNP. Either way, Cameron loses. 

It's an embarrassment to see Cameron and Milliband shitting themselves on national television ATM. The only other party that might pick up something in Scotland should a No vote occur would be UKIP.

The other issue is totally Scottish and that is devisiveness between the two camps on whatever aftermath.

Put it this way, if Scotland ruled the UK and gave England the vote for independence you would see most people voting Yes, so you have to wonder how Westminster didn't seemingly allow for that.

Investors are pulling the plug in Scotland ATM. This will be a concern to some voters but probably not a deal breaker.

I wasn't going to tune on for the Ryder Cup, but I got a 60% off deal with Sky television this very evening so took the whole package for a non contractual 12 month deal. Gleneagles this year?


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## JohnG (Sep 9, 2014)

rayinstirling @ 9th September 2014 said:


> even a NO vote will not stop this runaway train.



I've read (right or wrong) that this is what's affecting the markets -- people who bet on these things think the referendum, if it fails narrowly, may not be the end of it.

Here's an interesting article (I thought so) that talks about some of the potential economic benefits as well as risks:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/scottish ... 1410276005

I don't know half enough to have an opinion. Seems a bit emotional, as Ray says.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 9, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> I wasn't going to tune on for the Ryder Cup, but I got a 60% off deal with Sky television this very evening so took the whole package for a non contractual 12 month deal. Gleneagles this year?


I'll have to stop my Sky subs because I'll be bankrupt along with the rest of us Scottish residents. We will no longer be able to produce 25% of the UK's export sales in the form of Whisky. The tax on 15 billion barrels of oil won't keep us going for a week will it? 

Just saying!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 9, 2014)

It's behind a paywall, John. I'm not anxious to support Murdoch, so...

To me the economics are very plain. Look at all the European countries that don't have their own currency.


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> adriancook @ Tue Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't going to tune on for the Ryder Cup, but I got a 60% off deal with Sky television this very evening so took the whole package for a non contractual 12 month deal. Gleneagles this year?
> ...



Everyone I talk to is getting out of Sky because the full package is £71.25 a month and I'm not sure if that includes HD. 60% off that was a no brainer so I took it.

There's a lot of drunks in England so Scotland might be able to do a deal on whiskey if it becomes independent. Oh wait! We have a Chancellor don't we. Bugger!

But wait again! What's to stop the English going over the border and buying it directly from Scotland at vastly reduced prices? Oh we have Customs & Excise! Buggered again.


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> It's behind a paywall, John. I'm not anxious to support Murdoch, so...
> 
> To me the economics are very plain. Look at all the European countries that don't have their own currency.



That is a separate issue. The EU is a basket case. The EU doesn't do anyone any good at all. Just on the simplest form. How the hell can a Euro have the same currency conversion rate for Germany as it does for Greece, Spain, Ireland,France,Italy etc?

I go to the USA for instance, and the dollar is a dollar all over a vast continent.

This thing about Scotland not being able to join the EU is an Arbroath Smokie. By the time Scotland ever got into that position should they vote Yes, the EU will be history anyway. The EU is the least of their voting reasons imo. 

Boe Governor reiterated yesterday that the pound is not an option to Scotland due to Sovereignty (this is from Osbourne of course in panic mode). Ergo, Scotland would have a currency lets say, called a pound, but like any other country, that said pound would eventually find it's own level against a basket of foreign currencies, including the rest of the UK pound. This of course is the main sticking point for the No voters.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 10, 2014)

Adrian, whiskey? you are already an American 

My thought for the day before I leave home to do business with a man from Kentucky at their only other site outside of Kentucky, their Scottish Biosciences Manufacturing Facility where they've just spent 30 million US on extending their operation here for the supply of their products throughout Europe.
Okay, back on topic:

The yes vote may already have won due to this simple fact. No voters have been staunchly No since day one. The undecideds (is that a word) are nothing other than nervous Yes voters. If they lose their nerve it's No otherwise it's Yes.

Ta Ra


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## rpjd (Sep 10, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> Adrian, whisk*e*y? you are already an American


...or an Irishman who likes altogether superior whisk*e*y, Bushmills apart!

Well, the politicians on both sides have been blitzing us with a million words that could have been said in ten (as usual). But none of them have touched on the "muddle-through" factor at which humans excel. No matter what the vote, the Scots, either alone or with the rest of the UK, will muddle through whatever situation they find themselves in and will make the best of it. 'Twas ever thus.

Ireland became a republic a mere 65 years ago. It's been a bumpy ride but, hey, it's still perched in the eastern Atlantic, despite being a miniscule nation among giants, relatively speaking.

And if the Scots do vote for independence, why not form a Celtic Commonwealth consisting of Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales? While we're at it, why not include French Brittany as well?

Whatever way the Scots vote, I wish them the very best for the future.

Ray(inparis)


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2014)

I always want to call it Whikskey ever after seeing that film Hombre.

Ayyyyyyyyy Hombre…you want some whikskeyyyy?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 10, 2014)

You're obviously tiring of the subject here. Finally it heads the news broadcasts. Too late.
Polls now being reported as if there are no one on the fence?


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2014)

No not tiring of th subject at all. Got to keep it light.

New poll suggests a 6 point lead for the No vote. Cameron breathes again. Milliband breathes again and Destrey Rides Again.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 10, 2014)

Yes, the Times poll was probably a flash in the pan. Better believing the Scottish Daily Record who are supporting No on behalf of all the Labour MPs


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 10, 2014)

> How the hell can a Euro have the same currency conversion rate for Germany as it does for Greece, Spain, Ireland,France,Italy etc?



By having massive unemployment throughout GIPS, which is now doing worse than during the Great Depression.

So it's not a separate issue at all! In fact it's the exact same issue! Did you read the Paul Krugman article I posted earlier in this thread?

If GIPS could lower their currencies (or if the Germans accepted higher inflation), that would make their exports more attractive and they wouldn't have such high unemployment.

Do you want Scotland to be in the same trap if your economy gets in trouble?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 10, 2014)

I'm not quite sure why the only answers you can come up with are attitude, drinking, or lazy people.

Hopefully the whole country doesn't have its head up its kilts!


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## rayinstirling (Sep 10, 2014)

Nick,
I'm missing something here because I can't figure out who your addressing with these replies.


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2014)

Inflation to Germany is like Cryptonite. The only way out is to break apart the EU and that can't be far away. They need to get their own currencies that reflect the way things are in individual economies.

Scotland on the other hand would not be part of the EU and would be and is an unknown quantity obviously. Population I think is approximately 6 million, about the same as say, Denmark. 

If the EU nations had had any sense at the time, they would have asked to adopt the US dollar, which was and just about still is the worlds reserve currency.


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## kb123 (Sep 10, 2014)

As a Scotsman living in England, my biggest worry is the divisions now created, its going to be a close vote, and with such a passionate subject, its going to leave at least 1 group unhappy

The rest of the UK will be adversely affected by a Yes vote, and the whole balance of political power goes over to the right wing probably for a generation, which will result in even more alienation

Because the political map is affected in England, it is impossible to trust any of the politicians to give a true and accurate picture of any potential outcome


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## chimuelo (Sep 10, 2014)

Maybe the Scots have seen how the 2 American Crime Families have consolidated the economy and wish to have a go at this.

No longer do gangsters have baseballs signed at the Stadiums, hand out Turkeys, flood the poor neighborhoods with guns, drugs and booze, open up Soup Kitchens, appear on late night TV shows.

This is the role of Government now. 
Recently with the legalization of Marijuana, it took only months before the Feds realized the market potential, and now make it possible for the poor to buy weed, which guarantees they'll never pass the drug tests imposed upon employers by the Government, which is another market they also proper from. 

Perhaps the Scots prefer this gangster/crime family redistribution trap over the royal family / house of lords stuff.
You got to admit, free food, free condoms to breed further, free weed, free health care, free school, free housing.

Sounds poor to most Americans as we know free really isn't, especially when coming from plantation owners and gangsters, but to the rest of the world, that ain't a bad deal at all.
Neighborhoods could pool their checks together and buy Kilos of Drugs and resell them to non members that live a few miles away, create large weapons caches.
What's not to like...?
Then, to further the role of redistribution, now the the plantations occupants are so well armed, well we can't have that, let's sell M1 Tanks, Humvees, Grizzlies and anti IED armored vehicles to the local Police and have the tax payers cover that too.

Pretty smart chaps if you asks me.... 0oD


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## JohnG (Sep 10, 2014)

kb123 @ 10th September 2014 said:


> ... the whole balance of political power goes over to the right wing probably for a generation, which will result in even more alienation



I keep thinking the same -- that the conservatives in the long run benefit, even if Mr. Cameron is in the naughty chair short term. I heard that only one MP from Scotland is a Conservative, all the rest being Labour.


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## british_bpm (Sep 10, 2014)

This is my response elsewhere on VI-C to the reason I had posted the message displayed on our home page here:

http://www.spitfireaudio.com



british_bpm @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> The United Kingdom has the very real possibility of become fractured in just over a week's time. Something that isn't being talked about anywhere south of the border nor anywhere else in the world until only just a couple of weeks ago. Imagine if Texas were but a week away and 6% points off succeeding from the USA, a federation that is some 100 years younger than that of the UK. That we haven't appeared to care south of the border is based on our leader's insistence that it is a nonsense. This nonsense stands the very real prospect of now becoming a reality. Like much of the world, our nation has lost it's sense of nuance. Everything is right or wrong, good or evil, atheistic, monotheistic, yes or indeed no. We have lost the understanding of the difference between patriotism and nationalism. All over the UK, there are many people who feel completely unrepresented in the westminster corridors of power. But it is not in westminster's interests to highlight this. As any discussion or action would inevitably weaken the power of those who walk those corridors. So the scottish now have a choice between a set of people who rigorously want to uphold a flawed democratic system where the needs and opinions of huge sections and indeed entire communities of people are totally ignored at all costs in order to maintain their power and wealth derived from it. Or to choose a future of uncertainty dictated by a man so ravenous for power he bullies and lies and cajoles his way to achieve it. From denying any scot who doesn't live permanently north of the border any right to vote, and reducing the voting age to 16 to embrace a larger proportion of people who are excited by the idea of change and don't yet have the financial responsibility of home and hearth and family to worry about. For me we should aim to try not to give people power when they are so desperate for it. Was it Abe Lincoln who said something like "don't judge a man on how he acts when handed adversity, judge him on how he acts when he is handed power" (I know I'm misquoting). I fear the scots should have been handed three questions, Yes, No and "No but only if things change and we get to get a say!". But this is not the nuanced society we live in, for nuance doesn't breed ultimate power.
> 
> My motivation behind the home page was to let, in my own very very small way, those in Scotland know that I believe many of us down here love them. I'm married to one, I have two little half scotch children and I love their homeland. I have lived all of my life in a blended culture that borrows from all four provinces in our tiny Kingdom. That has created great success, in politics, science and the arts. That has fought side by side for the greater good and has enjoyed knocking bells out of each other at the odd football match. We created the two greatest institutions the UK has ever come up with together, the NHS and the BBC. And we've enjoyed a couple of scottish James Bonds, Doctor Whos and the odd prime minister to boot. Most of all we have overcome adversity together, so this political question, so comparatively easy to solve and solve together seems like such an horrendous reason for dividing our wonderful union. I just wanted to say please don't go.
> 
> Crossed fingers for the 18th, if the No gets the vote my wife and I have agreed to have a union dinner of haggis, leaks, oysters and Yorkshire pudding. Washed down with beer, because we all like beer.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 10, 2014)

Actually it wouldn't be so bad if Texas seceded. Just leave Austin behind.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 10, 2014)

Seriously, my main man Paul Krugman has been writing a lot about this the last few days, and the more I read the worse the idea sounds.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0 ... =Body&_r=0

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0 ... egion=Body

That stuff is worth reading.

"Let me say that I do understand why some people would like to be out of David Cameron’s UK — just as some of us coastal liberals occasionally wonder what America could be like without the old Confederacy. But getting currency realities right is crucial. The European project is a noble idea, and the euro is a grand gesture in support of that idea — but the willingness to ignore macroeconomics for the sake of that grand gesture may end up making Marine Le Pen president of France. You really have to get these things right, or else."


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## rayinstirling (Sep 10, 2014)

Let me say this,
I have not the slightest doubt economically, Scotland can survive quite comfortably in this world if we live within our means. The trappings of power on the world stage is no big deal to us Scots living in Scotland. The British Empire was founded on slavery and I do include Scots as being responsible for making their fortunes from trading people. The Industrial Revolution was founded not just on innovations in engineering but on children crawling under weaving looms. Servitude has and still is the basis for making some of us relatively rich. It's not that I think everyone is equal performing the same task but rather everyone deserves at least a basic standard of of living above just bread and water.
I really have been a "don't know" (or to put it another way, a nervous yes) but one more stupid comment from my alleged "betters" may, tip the balance.

Economics are not and should not be the basis for deciding such a vote. Making profit isn't a bad thing. The problem comes with who decides how it is shared out.

EDIT:
this morning's news gives a prime example of why economics should not be a factor in any decision.
The Unionists claim the Royal Bank of Scotland announcement of wishing to move there operations to London is a nail in the coffin for separation? Job loses in Edinburgh etc etc. On the contrary says a London financial analyst. That would mean all debts go with them to London.
You couldn't make it up.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 11, 2014)

Nice post, Christian.

I think the adage "it's the economy stupid" still seems to apply even in this situation. Why aren't Wales and NI desperate for independence? It's the economy, stupid.

Also, I think the reason for sudden upswing of yes support is a lot more flaky than it looks. The tide of "positiviism" has clearly been infectious. Trifling questions like "what currency will you use?" (esp given that the Governor of the Bank Of England has said that a currency union is unworkable) are simply brushed aside as "scaremongering". We're in a very strange place here, that doesn't seem entirely sober or rational to me.

That "positivism" is, in truth, much more driven by a very widespread hatred of the UK political parties - not just the Tories, but all 3 (4 including UKIP), that are not seen as representing Scotland's interests. Of course as Russel Brand pointed out, a great many of us south of the border have exactly the same feeling about the UK in general, so that equally applies to England. So you have many issues being conflated and a basic appeal to emotion that takes place of anyone knowing almost any facts at all - every big issue you can think of is either uncertain or unknowable. So faith takes its place - negativity is "scaremongering" while faith in a bright new future (promising, incidentally, SNP policies as a contrast to Coalition ones, a rather grotesque yet telling slight of hand) is "positive".

Myself, I wish for the whole debate to go back to the drawing board. I hope for a "no", but a stinging one that can open a more thoughtful and deeper debate about politics for all of us in the UK that whether you live in Essex, Salford, Cornwall, Lothain, Pembrokeshire or Ulster you might be better represented. As faint hope maybe. And in the short term, if it can expose the horror of being governed by old Etonions and those who ape them, then that would be a very good thing indeed.

If the vote is "yes", I suspect one helluva long hangover (he said, scaremongering).


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

Marie Le Penn will probably become President of France. This has an indirect effect on Scotland given their old and tradional ties.

As soon as Le Penn becomes President, the EU is over. Ergo, then independence really does mean independence. 

I may turn this into a dirty fight. :mrgreen:

Christian that's a very partisan post. Do you have any Scottish connections?


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 11, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Christian that's a very partisan post. Do have any Scottish connections?



??????!!!!!!!!!


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## NYC Composer (Sep 11, 2014)

rpjd @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Adrian, whisk*e*y? you are already an American
> ...



My son bought me a bottle of 21 year old Redbreast Irish whiskey for my 102nd birthday.
It was beyond a doubt the finest whiskey I have ever consumed (full disclosure, I'm an Irish whiskey lover.)

Ok, back to topic.


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## handz (Sep 11, 2014)

I heard in news yesterday that Scottland want be more socialist than current UK... well good luck, this make all Europe go to hell, that socialism. "Communism light". And you wanna be more? :-/


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

handz @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> I heard in news yesterday that Scottland want be more socialist than current UK... well good luck, this make all Europe go to hell, that socialism. "Communism light". And you wanna be more? :-/



Hanndz, Scotland has always been in modern times a Labour country. This is nothing new. That alone will not make the country go independent. Ever been to Scotland Handz?


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## handz (Sep 11, 2014)

Sorry, I do not understand

I was not but I dunk more Scotch than many Scottish people do for sure


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

handz @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Sorry, I do not understand
> 
> I was not but I dunk more Scotch than many Scottish people do for sure



Handz, you were dunked in Scotch? What all of you?? >8o


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## handz (Sep 11, 2014)

Haha, Drunk and bit of dunk


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## bupper (Sep 11, 2014)

Adrian, where in the world did you get the idea that Marine Le Pen would "probably" become president? There is no way on this earth that is going to happen. The last (and only) time her party got to the second round of the presidential election only made it far easier on the other contestant (Chirac) who won with a score of more than 80%! Left & Right voted for Chirac alike so the national party of Le Pen (Marine's father) wouldn't win. So I repeat, Marine Le Pen has NO chance of becoming president


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

bupper @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> So I repeat, Marine Le Pen has NO chance of becoming president



Awesome Bupper! I love that kind of confidence in a person's judgement.

Scotland has no chance of voting YES in about 7 days time!


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ray I just got back in and see all the major companies are running for cover. This was of course predictable and what kind of impact will this have on the vote?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 11, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Ray I just got back in and see all the major companies are running for cover. This was of course predictable and what kind of impact will this have on the vote?



At best, none and at worst for NO more folks sticking two fingers up.
No one seems to be talking about how long and winding a road it will be after the vote. Nothing will change next Friday but the runaway train is not going to stop because every young person voting for the first time and questioned about the future is saying, get rid of Trident. Our world is changing.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2014)

Handz wrote:



> I heard in news yesterday that Scottland want be more socialist than current UK... well good luck, this make all Europe go to hell, that socialism. "Communism light". And you wanna be more? :-



Blaming the financial crash on the most enlightened aspect of European civilization. Nice.

Ray wrote:



> I have not the slightest doubt economically, Scotland can survive quite comfortably in this world if we live within our means.



Based on what? Faith?

"Living within our means" is what you do as an individual if you're a thrifty lad. It doesn't work the same way with countries.

Putting it charitably*, that mistake - substituting intuition for an understanding of macroeconomics - is precisely why Europe is doing so badly. Just cutting back on spending doesn't work if the whole country does it - it causes the economy to sink.

And then so many people who are fine in bad economies have the nerve to blame less fortunate people for not being able to find work that simply isn't there. That's what makes my head explode. Work is a privilege, for fuxsake.

* "Charitably" because it's the propaganda spread by a lot of greedy conservative people who would like to dismantle social programs so they can pay lower taxes.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2014)

Ray:



> Economics are not and should not be the basis for deciding such a vote



If I were voting they would be. I don't like suffering.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 11, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Ray:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you Americans keep your wallet in your breast pocket and that's what you're holding when the flag gets raised and anthem plays.
I would hope not!


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## bupper (Sep 11, 2014)

sorry Adrain but you brought France into this thread when you are so obviously underinformed on the situation here. 
The debate is on Scotland & you are "apparently" over-informed on the situation (joke there). The politicians in Westminster are now so scared that they are running for cover. Now, I am not of scottish origin so have obviously no say in the matter but am from a once colonized country & will be whole-heartedly behind the fact that the scots have a referendum in the first place. I trust the scots will vote with their hearts & minds (even though the facts of a no vote haven't exactly been revealed fully & its been more of a bullying campaign) & will become a nation at peace with the final outcome.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2014)

Ray, why do you think every one of 300 million Americans is the same person, let alone that anything I said implies that money is all that matters ever?

We're talking about "the basis for deciding such a vote."

I've already explained why I think this could cause a lot of unnecessary pain. That's a legitimate factor, no?


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## bupper (Sep 11, 2014)

Right now, and for the next week, the Scottish people are sovereign, truly sovereign. They're in control. The Westminster crowd, the City of London placemen and the special advisors doing a few years work experience in politics as preparation for their real career in private healthcare, are outside the room twiddling anxiously on their Blackberrys while inside the room the Scottish people, the demos unleashed in its terrible beauty, talk, debate and decide.
They have never seen this moment before. We may never see it again.
Today, and for the next week, Scottish independence is a reality. It has escaped the future and arrived in the present. All that the Scots must now decide is whether to hand it back.


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

bupper @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> but am from a once colonized country



You're an American??


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## bupper (Sep 11, 2014)

no sir, I'm Irish


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Ray:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Has to be done on the economy providing logical thought gets applied.

Hang on though, this is a referendum. :lol: 

I was wondering how the border will get dealt with if a Yes vote happens. Toll booths with Customs & Excise and the Black Hand Gang all over the place. Immigration officers and so on. Some job creation right there. 

Scotland will need toll booths because motorways and roads are REALLY expensive to maintain.


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

bupper @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> no sir, I'm Irish



Say hello to the McNamaras for me.

I too come from a colonised country. England.


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## bupper (Sep 11, 2014)

> Scotland will need toll booths because motorways and roads are REALLY expensive to maintain.


Don't worry, there's north sea gas to pay for all the roads :D


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## rayinstirling (Sep 11, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Ray, why do you think every one of 300 million Americans is the same person, let alone that anything I said implies that money is all that matters ever?
> 
> We're talking about the basis for "such a vote."
> 
> I've already explained why I think this could cause a lot of unnecessary pain. That's a legitimate factor, no?


You're right Nick, I should have referred my post to you alone.

The economics will look after themselves. I don't expect to be better or worse off either way because we are not a shower of imbeciles. Vested interests are lining up for no change but folks aren't fooled by that anymore. I don't believe any Scot looking for independence expects to sit back and watch the tax revenue from dwindling oil resources see them into old age. We would have to work hard to be comfortable and that isn't a bad thing in any country. What we wouldn't be is a country living on past glories as an empire builder. If we cut our cloth to suit our needs we'll be just fine thanks.
What I will say right now is, come the result next week I personally will be neither happier or sad. I'll just be getting on with my life in whatever circumstance I find myself. I'm not getting emotional but a hell of a lot are. That's their right and it won't stop for them. Everything about politics on this island is going to change like it or not.


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## chimuelo (Sep 11, 2014)

So which is it..?
Yes or No...

Which vote allows wealthy people to redistribute other peoples wealth to the commoners...?


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2014)

All Yes voters are going to be disappointed. There will be no redistribution in this instance.

Incidentally, the BBC don't want to appear to be biased over the Scottish referendum.

Surely not!


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## rayinstirling (Sep 11, 2014)

chimuelo @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> So which is it..?
> Yes or No...
> 
> Which vote allows wealthy people to redistribute other peoples wealth to the commoners...?



Which Scotsman redistributed his own wealth over there? I was in Dunfermline this morning.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2014)

> The economics will look after themselves.



Again, that's a faith-based assumption.

I don't think you understand the point about how dangerous it is for an independent country not to have its own currency.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 11, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> > The economics will look after themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I'm saying in the unlikely event of independence there will be at least a two year period in which such issues will be sorted. No divorce is painless or speedy.


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

I think the gap in the vote will be much higher than the polls suggest.

However, if there is a Yes vote, then our election will be cancelled/postponed for at least a year to 2016, which will be a huge disappointment for Conservative/Labour, but a massive boost for UKIP. Especially because Cameron and Milliband would not make that election as the leader of their local council, never mind where they are now. The Tory back bench right wing would crucify Cameron in an instant after the Scottish referendum and the English Unions, knowing they no longer have any chance of power, would do the same to Milliband.

What a Yes vote of course would also do, would be to completely finish Labour off in England. Then Wales would start asking questions. We could easily revert back to 12th century boundaries quite soon.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 12, 2014)

Adrian,
Already this morning a resident of Shetland where they were forced to use a postal vote has said he's made a mistake and would have voted differently following the events of this last week. I'm sure the YES campaign people will use it today if they have any sense.
I really don't know where SKY NEWS stands on this because they've begun today by reminding us of the gigantic gap there was in the polls a few months ago compared to a few percentage points today. I'm fairly certain that within a week to a year, around a million voters will wish they voted the other way.

Away moving on, I'm looking forward to a mini break in the Marlborough area next weekend


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> Away moving on, I'm looking forward to a mini break in the Marlborough area next weekend



Quai Hai! William Golding country. Hope the weather holds up. It's been good in that part of the country these last few weeks of September.


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 12, 2014)

I do find that the amount of vested interest fear mongering is quite substantial and evident in the media. Bankers in the frontline throw tantrums of course. I remember the very same fear tactics being used by the establishment in Ireland on the second Lisbon referendum. 

VIP and other moneys are flowing like water towards both fractions, JK Rowling sent one million sterling to the "better together" campaign, two Lotto winners sent 3.5 million sterling to the "Yes" campaign, to name but a few. 

Looking to Europe and the latest incarnation of commissioners, face palm, this election result could turn into an intersting precedent if Scotland were to leave the UK. Legally, the United Kingdom is a sovereign state and as such is member of the European Union. 

Say Bavaria votes for independence (chuckle) and the now minister Horst Seehofer would be inthronized as Bavaria's next "King Horsti" so to speak, the status of Bavaria as well as BRD would have changed, right? :lol: 

Fascinating!


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## rayinstirling (Sep 12, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> Quai Hai! William Golding country. Hope the weather holds up. It's been good in that part of the country these last few weeks of September.



I hope so because my car's had it's 3 monthly wash this morning.


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Sep 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Quai Hai! William Golding country. Hope the weather holds up. It's been good in that part of the country these last few weeks of September.
> ...



That reminds me…..


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## british_bpm (Sep 14, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> adriancook @ Thu Sep 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Christian that's a very partisan post. Do have any Scottish connections?
> ...



I do... on several counts, chronologically:

1. I'm a patriotic British Londoner, part of my heritage, as part of a blended culture, an uncomfortable but workable marriage that has lasted 300 years. I eat smoked salmon for breakfast, I hate whisky but I'll fight any man who tries to steal an Arbroath smokey off me, or a drop scone, a veggie haggis, some porridge . It's not some patronising standpoint, it's what I grew up with, it's my heritage, my own personal heritage, and it stands to be taken away, to become foreign... and that's just the food. Don't let me get started on the musos, Blue Nile.... they may have a different passport to me, heritage, TV stations..... Noooooo!

2. I'm married to a wonderful scot and we have had two vaguely red-haired little children who look very Scottish. But my eldest daughter is from a previous relationship. Until last year we were all together, a blended family, same passports. In 18 months we may have to select the nationality of our children. That's pretty hardcore isn't it?

3. Alex Salmond.

I will not care to document my opinions on Cameron and the rest of the gobshites in Westminster. It has been handled fairly effectively by the UK liberal press. But Alex. Please please please look up cluster B personality disorders. He fits the profile of a raging narcissist more than I have ever seen on "our" shores. Why do no doctors come forth. He is in very very bad company, Gaddaffi, Hussein (Uday, his son, was an even worse specimen), Stalin, Pot. You will never win with these people. I almost dread the "no" vote winning, because scotland and britain wil then be stalked by him until he gets his way. He is a total menace, and I'd happily expand on this if anyone is even mildly interested.

Cross fingers for 18th, we love you Scotland.

C. x


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## rayinstirling (Sep 14, 2014)

Unfortunately for most of the UK watching this from outside Scotland, you are fed this constant presidential style media coverage. Alex Salmond is not seen as the recipient of a yes vote. Most if not all the Yes people don't even like him. They see him as a means to an end which will not necessarily include him going forward. This will be absolutely a vote contested by the heart and not the head although, I expect fear of change to carry the day for no change.


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## british_bpm (Sep 14, 2014)

I agree, but he is the conduit for the case "for", and he is using it to gain his own napoleonic ambitions. You correctly point out that he is not much liked on either side. But you will never get rid of him yes or no. 

Scotland is in an impossibly horrific situation, both sides of the vote are horrid. We must pull together as a nation and fight for democratic reform, devolution, the creation of a federation.

But Scotland can't even rely on the vote of huge swathes of scots who have benefited from the excellent state education available north of the border, those who have then ventured south to prosper and promote the brilliance of the scottish spirit. To contribute to the greater good of the UK. These guys, my wife, who may, in 18 months have to pick the nationality of her children, she doesn't get a say...

... these are Alex's conditions, agreed flippantly by our pathetic whitehallers who patronisingly thought this campaign was a trifling annoyance.


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## AC986 (Sep 14, 2014)

English people in Scotland get a vote.

Scottish people in England do not.

That's insane. 

You get Scots coming on TV and saying things like we don't want Westminster. That is bollocks. What they mean is, they don't accept a democratic electoral vote for conservatives. Nothing was ever said for 13 years of a Labour government. These same people also say they have an aging population in Scotland and they now need immigration. I would point them in the direction of Ireland on that score.

If they want independence then that's great. But FFS don't come out with crap. That's irritating. And it's embarrassing.

The No vote will win this, but there will be sour tastes in the mouthes of quite few people after Thursday both sides of the border.

Salmond is still basically a communist. Whatever vote he gets, the Scots will get rid if him and revert back to Labour almost unanimously.


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## José Herring (Sep 14, 2014)

Europe has become too tame. It's boring watching European politics.

If Scotts want independence. Don't vote for it in some rigged UK vote, bring out the hatches, machine guns, and bagpipes and fight for it!!!


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## AC986 (Sep 14, 2014)

What the fucking hell has Scotland and England got to do with EU politics?


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## José Herring (Sep 14, 2014)

Not talking about EU politics. Just European politics in general. There's a difference and last I checked the UK was still a European nation full of peoples of Europe.


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## germancomponist (Sep 14, 2014)

EU politics is done by the evil!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2014)

> What the fucking hell has Scotland and England got to do with EU politics?



What I've posted several times and everyone seems to write off as an insignificant detail that will be worked out later. The Euro is a very recent lesson, and that's European politics.

Having a separate currency isn't being offered, and that should be the deal-breaker. It's not fear-mongering, it's a totally rational fear - or it should be!


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## rayinstirling (Sep 14, 2014)

We can't have serious discussion here when someone in la la land presents Mel Gibson as being relevant.
Sorry Nick, I know you're trying to be sensible but?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2014)

That wasn't my post.

And I didn't take it that Jose was being entirely serious.


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## AC986 (Sep 14, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> > What the fucking hell has Scotland and England got to do with EU politics?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand what your trying to say. But remember, we, meaning Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England are not in, and never will be in the Euro. And imo, neither will most of Europe in a few years time.

This is part of dirty in-fighting now. The currency situation. Salmond has not told Scots the whole truth about the pound. He lives in denial whenever a reporter or someone like Darling asks the question.
Should Scotland receive a Yes vote on Thursday, then all efforts will have to be made by their incumbent government from then on, to get into the Euro. That would take years and Salmond knows it.

This is a can of worms. This is what happens when you open Pandoras Box. Anyway..

Here's some more questions.

How is Scotland going to run it's penal system and pay for it?

How is Scotland going to deal with foreign criminals?

How is England going to deal with criminals that 'escape' over the border?

What will Scotland do with illegal immigrants?

How will they control their side of the border? (Not quite as big as the Mexican border I grant you).

Will reducing Corporation Tax make any kind of sense at all?

How will the Scottish Health Service be funded?

What will happen to Scottish residents (wholly living in Scotland) who are in the British Armed Forces?

What will happen to house prices in Scotland when Standard Life et al all leave for England?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 15, 2014)

Adrian,
These questions haven't had a bearing on the split for the last three months, why is that?
These months have seen the Yes vote going from nowhere to nearly winning the day. The Scotland doomed to fail policy has had a negative impact. Why not say, Scotland has the people and resources quite capable of running its own affairs and.........that is exactly why we in the rest of the country want these abilities to work for us all.


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## AC986 (Sep 15, 2014)

I told you I would turn this into a dirty fight Ray. :D 

Someone tells me to stick my hand in the fire I don't do it. I never stuck my hand in a fire before but I still believe them when they tell me not to.


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 15, 2014)

british_bpm @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> cluster B personality disorders. He fits the profile of a raging narcissist more than I have ever seen on "our" shores. Why do no doctors come forth.



From what I have read and seen, I would agree with you Christian. Sadly, this has become the norm in political circles more than ever before, which makes perfect sense if you know what these whackjobs are motivated by.

Then again, take a good look around, very conservative estimates state that in the UK one in 20 exhibits evidence for personality disorder, it is much higher in the US, and people are consuming tons of psychopharmceutic products. 

So, if you do take a good look around, you might find that you live in a Psychiatry just without the roof, walls and funny looking jackets. :lol:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2014)

> But remember, we, meaning Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England are not in, and never will be in the Euro.



That's right, and it's precisely because of that that you're not in far worse shape. It's certainly not because of Cameron austerity.



> And imo, neither will most of Europe in a few years time.



A couple of years ago it looked like that was going to happen with some countries within days if not hours, but right now it doesn't seem very likely to me.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 15, 2014)

I hear tell there is a big gathering in London concerning Scotland. Some Irishman talking about no borders instead of more. Yes, let's welcome terrorists from every corner of the globe to travel freely without fear of being searched. I don't think so.


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## AC986 (Sep 15, 2014)

When looking at the news this evening it strikes you Salmonds team has a much easier stand in this debate because a Yes vote argument is positive. Yes is a positive word and everything put forward has to be positive. People always want to hear the word yes rather than no.

The No side have to repost with negative arguments. Nobody likes to hear the word no. It's arguably more difficult to win, but win they will.


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## AC986 (Sep 15, 2014)

germancomponist @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> EU politics is done by the evil!



Potsdam Gunther!


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## rayinstirling (Sep 16, 2014)

The devo max (it ain't going to happen) type solution is now kicking in. Within the next year I expect a lot of disappointed people wanting another vote. Would that mean England being the loser regardless of the vote? Scotland isn't Quebec. Damage limitation will solve nothing.


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## AC986 (Sep 16, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Tue Sep 16 said:


> The devo max (it ain't going to happen) type solution is now kicking in. Within the next year I expect a lot of disappointed people wanting another vote. Would that mean England being the loser regardless of the vote? Scotland isn't Quebec. Damage limitation will solve nothing.



No one can seem to agree what the actual definition of devo max is. If Cameron and Milliband are promising whatever their version of devo max is, it's never going to happen.

Can't see any government giving Scotland another vote. This isn't Ireland and the Lisbon Treaty.

In Scotland should there be a No vote come Thursday, later on things will become bleak among people living there that feel things have passed them by forever and there will be a constant feeling of disappointment for quite a while. There could be trouble brewing. Same with a Yes vote. 
But a Yes vote has a lot more trouble ahead. It basically ends Cameron and Milliband. And probably Salmond only later than the other two. Scotland would be almost totally Labour as an independent country. The SNP would lose out ironically.
The Labour Party on the other hand in England would be finished and that is why there are a lot of scared Labour MPs running the place ATM.

It would open the door here for the UKIP party. After the Scotland vote there's an election in Essex.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 16, 2014)

Devo max the way it's been presented here today is, all the powers of independence without actually being independent. That is just plain ludicrous.


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## AC986 (Sep 16, 2014)

Personally if Scotland vote Yes I can accept that with disappointment that is brought about by a feeling of loss.

What I can't stand, is when Scots come on TV and start ranting about zero democracy in Scotland after there has been an election in the Uk circa 2010. It sounds like unions from the 1980s.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 16, 2014)

The 80's. That is rightly or wrongly what set this runaway train in motion. No doubt about it. Sadly there are people who will go to their graves after all these years still hating that bit of Iron.

I say sadly because I have not an ounce of hate in me. Never have and never will. Dislike? yes Hate? no.


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## AC986 (Sep 17, 2014)

Here we are with one day to go.

Have Scots really thought about this is going to affect English, Welsh and Northern Ireland people?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> Have Scots really thought about this is going to affect English, Welsh and Northern Ireland people?



Tell me, in what way do YOU think it will?

Before answering though, it is going to have a major effect either way.
Fred the shred of RBS was our modern day Panama investor. Are we really still needing to come to you cap in hand for our survival. I don't think so. I have no doubt whatsoever this time around England will be the loser. Scotland doesn't need a lot to survive if it isn't trying to be at the top table of the World's chattering classes.


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## chimuelo (Sep 17, 2014)

What kind of referendum could occur if short term problems become untenable..?

I finally read up a little on the subject and the currency dilemma can be overcome, but requires a long term solution which from what I read has not been thought out very well. 
Oil production seems to be the key, but our Pipeline and Federal lands are going to be ramping up very soon over here, which are going to have an effect on global prices really fast, especially since US shipping costs are extremely cheap compared to other nations, mostly due to insurance costs which stem from a vast Naval presence.

Right now Berkshire Hathaway is moving capital away from Railways, which move the Oil to the Gulf of Mexico, into large scale Real Estate ventures.
So Scotland is perfectly located to do business globally, but who'll pay the shipping insurance costs and which nations Naval Assets will be required?

If one were to read up on Swiss insurer's who made Libyan Oil, Light Crude, rather attractive due to a prime geographical location, things are changing since Crimea and Tartur are quickly becoming a source of concern.

North and South America won't need it, this leaves India and China since the EU is stuck with Russia as it's landlord until renewables or alternative energy become viable.
Then there's the Pipelines from SW Asia through Syria and Turkmenistan to India, and Siberian Pipelines to China that our excellent media aren't allowed to report on, so where will the North Sea crude go?

From what I see Scotland would be in direct competition with Russia, the Middle East and the USA.
An extremely ballsy move.

Maybe Scots could be our 51st State in the future. The Feds will take over the Oil Production in exchange for wealth redistribution and fast food chains, Wal Marts, Home Depots, etc.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2014)

What no one seems to want to discuss is the relationship between resources and population. Scotland's needs will be substantially reduced by not trying to be all things to all people in this world. Selfish? of course anyone other than those living here will think so. That is the dilemma when arguing for independence because generally speaking Scots are known for giving.


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## AC986 (Sep 17, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Have Scots really thought about this is going to affect English, Welsh and Northern Ireland people?
> ...



They won't be happy that's a certainty. Although this is all academic because the No vote will win. Then it's all about how Scots react with other Scots. No one else to blame here.


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## AC986 (Sep 17, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> Right now Berkshire Hathaway is moving capital away from Railways, which move the Oil to the Gulf of Mexico, into large scale Real Estate ventures.



I hope Warren Buffet does better on that than he did with Tescos.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> They won't be happy that's a certainty. Although this is all academic because the No vote will win. Then it's all about how Scots react with another Scots. No one else to blame here.


Just as I expected


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## AC986 (Sep 17, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:
> 
> 
> > They won't be happy that's a certainty. Although this is all academic because the No vote will win. Then it's all about how Scots react with other Scots. No one else to blame here.
> ...



The No vote is what I expect. 

Postage. That's another thing. I just sent 4 violin bows to Arbroath. How much is that going to cost if you all vote Yes?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 17 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:
> ...


As long as you get smokies in return it'll be fine :lol:


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## AC986 (Sep 17, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:
> 
> 
> > rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 17 said:
> ...



I would have preferred smokies to the amount of money. If it was done on a fair trade of a smokie compared to the money, I would have got about a third of a smokie!

EDIT:

Before Chim starts asking. :roll: 


http://www.arbroathsmokies.net

And how much are Smokies going to cost if yeee vote Yes?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> And how much are Smokies going to cost if yeee vote Yes?



Being a rare delicacy and one of our major export commodities, the price will be in sterling :lol:


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 17, 2014)

So, will Scotland join the coalition against ISIS if they become independent? And will their military uniforms include kilts?

The military/defense question is seriously interesting. Somebody has to protect the resources for, production of, and distribution of Irn-Bru!


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2014)

Anything happening in the next 18 months is unchanged. As for after that period, who knows but I'm told 70% of Britain's Special Forces are Scottish so where would that leave to UK in the unlikely event of separation?


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## bupper (Sep 17, 2014)

Scotland are about the best equipped of any recent or formcoming country to become independant! They have the ressources to cope with any changement & all this english scaremongering is really disgusting (in my eyes) All of this monetary blackmail is total bullshit, plain & simple. RBS WILL remain in Scotland no matter what the vote.

I can only repeat that I hope Scots will vote as they see fit & not be bullied by fuckwits.

I say this knowing full well that at this stage of the game there is only around a 20% chance of the yes vote winning


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## AC986 (Sep 17, 2014)

Monetary blackmail? Is that why we had to lend you 9 billion after your total and unabated fuck up? When you came asking cap in hand to England and begged for money when your EU wet dream came crashing down on your head? That monetary blackmail?

When you had to go back and vote Yes to the Lisbon Treaty after you had voted No. When you took orders from faceless fuckers in Brussels because you wet your pants at the thought of total and utter bankruptcy from over excess? That monetary blackmail?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2014)

attack, attack!
that's where were at.
good night


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## JohnG (Sep 17, 2014)

Best of luck to the UK and Scotland, whatever happens.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 18, 2014)

Looks like Cameron's tears prevailed... Even Bill Clinton jumped in at the end.


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## AC986 (Sep 19, 2014)

As predicted, the gap was much wider than polls predicted.

The vote is a gift to the UK and now the circus moves on to the Tory backbenches. That is going to be marginally interesting with a predictable outcome. The next big deal for Cameron happens next month in Essex. But for now, he has won this battle with Salmond which has saved his ass.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> As predicted, the gap was much wider than polls predicted.
> 
> The vote is a gift to the UK and now the circus moves on to the Tory backbenches. That is going to be marginally interesting with a predictable outcome. The next big deal for Cameron happens next month in Essex. But for now, he has won this battle with Salmond which has saved his ass.



I find the result comforting for no good reason. The best I can come up with is that I'm overloaded (like many) with the incessant and startling changes going on in the world. A bit of "no change" is welcome news. I hope the resolution is satisfying for those who voted not to leave and not too bitterly disappointing for those who wanted to secede. 
Best wishes to all the good folk of the U.K.


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## AC986 (Sep 19, 2014)

Yes Larry indeed.

I of course am always happy to see monetary blackmail winning the day.

On a serious note, there will be lots of fallout and reasons why etc.

But I think that, ironically, Salmond lost because of the high turnout. Phenomenally high turnout actually. Around 88 %. Unprecedented.

If you look at the result over the 32 County Council wards, the Yes vote received 12.5% of the vote, and the No vote got 87.5%. My theory is that if there had not been 16 and 17 year olds allowed to vote (which was a concession btw) then the No vote would have been even higher.

Why the No vote was so large on a binary vote remains to be seen. Many differing reasons but I personally would have missed them badly if they'd gone. It would never have been the same again. When someone from England visits Scotland, they do not think for one second that this is any other place but Scotland. Not some area that is part of England. It's an entity unto itself and will remain so for ever.

The fun bit starts now with the conservative backbench. Redmond in particular will have a lot of influence.
[/b]


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 19, 2014)

I think the voters were like amateur cliff jumpers:

(Looks up from water at cliff)
Let's jump off that thing!

(Look down from cliff at water)
On second thought...


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## milesito (Sep 19, 2014)

I am happy to see an example of a much more civil way of resolving this type of dispute in the world today quite frankly...a good example


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## RiffWraith (Sep 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> As predicted, the gap was much wider than polls predicted.



So wait - people were predicting that the polls' prediction was wrong? :lol:


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 19, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> I find the result comforting for no good reason.



Here's a reason:



> Belgian EU Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht, whose native Flanders region is in thrall to a growing nationalist movement, said a Scottish split would have been "cataclysmic" for Europe, triggering a domino effect across the continent.
> 
> "If it had happened in Scotland, I think it would have been a political landslide on the scale of the break-up of the Soviet Union," said De Gucht, a liberal who does not support demands from some of his fellow Flemings for their own state.
> 
> "A Europe driven by self-determination of peoples ... is ungovernable because you'd have dozens of entities but areas of policy for which you need unanimity or a very large majority," he said, adding that "parts of former countries" might behave in a very nationalistic ways.



http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/1 ... 0M20140919

IMO we need to get better at living together, not erecting ever-increasing walls. The hope of this experience is it will galvanise support for a more engaged politics generally, and less of a system that exists entirely to support the 1%. It's a faint hope, but a hope nonetheless.

I'll be going on the London branch of the climate march on Sunday. Not sure why... I don't believe it will make a scrap of difference really. But as I reflect, I think it's because I'm still naive enough to detect just a scintilla of hope that the old order is not quite as impervious to change as assumed. The non-impact of the 2m who marched against the Iraq war in 2003 has paralysed people for too long - if 2m are brushed aside even when they're entirely in the right, what's the point of trying to have a voice at all, we all reasoned. Perhaps its time to allow just the tiniest amount of belief in the power of decent people again.

Forgive me, I'm getting all silly and emotional. I'm sure I'll be bitter and cynical again by Monday.


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## AC986 (Sep 19, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > As predicted, the gap was much wider than polls predicted.
> ...




Jeffrey your'e already standing in 'moron corner' with your thumb in your mouth. Don't make it worse. :lol: 

The polls were predicting a much closer vote Jeffrey. That is all. But intelligent people know that that was unlikely. 0oD


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 19, 2014)

Actually the polls were pretty close, between 51-54% in the last week. Almost margin of error really.


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## gsilbers (Sep 19, 2014)

interesting it was so close. i think this will be positive because now the UK parliament will take more seriously the minority reps. 

i also learned why scotland was added as part of the UK back in the day. interesting to know its related to panama.


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## RiffWraith (Sep 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Fri Sep 19 said:
> ...



Intelligent people don't say things like _As predicted, the gap was much wider than polls predicted_.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 19, 2014)

And yet the presidential election polling was very accurate last time. The people in private jets lined up to celebrate Pre$ident Romney, Karl Rove, and lots of other evildoers who looked like even bigger assholes than normal sure learned that the hard way. It made Nate Silver a celebrity.

But this was different, of course.

***

Good thing No won and the dominos didn't start falling. I would have been totally down with the Blue States and Austin TX of America.


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## AC986 (Sep 19, 2014)

gsilbers @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> interesting it was so close. i think this will be positive because now the UK parliament will take more seriously the minority reps.



It wasn't close. How many more times?


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## AC986 (Sep 19, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 19 said:
> ...



That's a play on words Jeffrey. Can you begin to understand that?


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## RiffWraith (Sep 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Sep 20 said:


> That's a play on words Jeffrey. Can you begin to understand that?



Suuuuuuuuuuuure!!! 8)


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## NYC Composer (Sep 20, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I find the result comforting for no good reason.
> ...



Sorry Guy-I meant no good reason for me, for my area, my nation ( though I'm sure turmoil would have ensued in the markets, it would have been temporary.) I meant I didn't really have a dog in the fight and I don't understand the issues well enough, yet I was still relieved in a general, global order sense


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## NYC Composer (Sep 20, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> I think the voters were like amateur cliff jumpers:
> 
> (Looks up from water at cliff)
> Let's jump off that thing!
> ...



Excellent point.


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## AC986 (Sep 20, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Fri Sep 19 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > That's a play on words Jeffrey. Can you begin to understand that?
> ...



Jeffrey. I'm going to punish you one of these days.


:mrgreen:


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## AC986 (Sep 20, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Sep 20 said:


> ( though I'm sure turmoil would have ensued in the markets, it would have been temporary.)



Stock markets would have been temporary, but the really big worry was the currency market.

Salmond has now fallen on his sword. Had he won it would have been Cameron and Milliband doing the falling.

What happens next won't be until after the election, which incidentally wouldn't have happened next May but would have been cancelled for up to 18 months.


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## Vlzmusic (Sep 20, 2014)

Not trying to insult the English folks here, but as an outside viewer, I find the results to be media driven. 

I have never visited UK, neither know anyone there in person (probably the only two english persons I remember meeting were Malcolm McDowell and Lindsey Anderson in... 1990 - backstage, as they have visited USSR). 

But earlier today, it took me more than 5 minutes to find Rotherham abuse coverage on BBC news site. I actually had to use search in the end. Thousands of lives ruined, no questions asked. I would`nt vote yes for this.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 21, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> Vlzmusic @ Sat Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > But earlier today, it took me more than 5 minutes to find Rotherham abuse coverage on BBC news site. I actually had to use search in the end. Thousands of lives ruined, no questions asked. I would`nt vote yes for this.
> ...



Adrian, you simply MUST learn to stop holding back. By God, all this temperance and restraint will likely give you a coronary. Loosen UP, man- say what you truly think!


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## AC986 (Sep 21, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> Adrian, you simply MUST learn to stop holding back. By God, all this temperance and restraint will likely give you a coronary. Loosen UP, man- say what you truly think!



:lol: 


What are you saying Larry? That in future I shouldn't embroider it and give it to them straight?

Ok I'll do that.

In the meantime, I've got to French polish a 19th century walnut desk top stationery cabinet and then go play golf. It's a hell of a life.

What's the weather like in NYC today btw?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 22, 2014)

A bit humid, but I find it just fine, because I am still walking, talking and getting paid (occasionally) for writing music. Lovely day.

..re watching a golf match-I can never decide between watching one of those, watching grass grow or watching paint dry..


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## AC986 (Sep 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> A bit humid, but I find it just fine, because I am still walking, talking and getting paid (occasionally) for writing music. Lovely day.
> 
> ..re watching a golf match-I can never decide between watching one of those, watching grass grow or watching paint dry..



I'm not great watcher of golf either. Playing days are nearly over through fighting injury.

It's a very sunny day here at the moment so I'm going to get the big camera gear out and tripod and go and photo the interior of a Benedictine Abbey today. You could come if you want? Just smother yourself in garlic if you're worried and you'll be fine. :D


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## NYC Composer (Sep 22, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > A bit humid, but I find it just fine, because I am still walking, talking and getting paid (occasionally) for writing music. Lovely day.
> ...



No need. Just foil screen-if you haven't noticed, I'm somewhat allergic to sun


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## AC986 (Sep 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> ...



I meant if you came into the Abbey! :lol: 


It's a religious joke. I'm here all week.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 22, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> ...



I'm not sure, but I b'lieve my immortal flesh would start to boil off if I walked in...but it's hard to tell- I have no reflection...


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## AC986 (Sep 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

I just got back.

If I come over the NYC you can take me over to the Synagogue. I have no fear and it will give me chance to wear my Homburg.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 22, 2014)

You can come to my nephew's bar mitzvah!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2014)

I apologize for deleting Adrian's post, but the forum wouldn't let me edit the illegal parts out.

No direct insults, please.


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## AC986 (Sep 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> You can come to my nephew's bar mitzvah!



I would if I could. The one and only Barmitzvah I attended was when I was about 13. Quite an experience. Carrying those scrolls around. What? And then after, the reception. That was an interesting experience. Of course I was a heathen in this midst but I rembember what fun it was and I've always been lucky with Jewish people.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 22, 2014)

Adrian insulted me and I didn't get to see it?? I am heartbroken.
Adrian, PM me your insult.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2014)

I was trying to edit the insult, not the person it was addressed to.


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## AC986 (Sep 22, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> Adrian insulted me and I didn't get to see it?? I am heartbroken.
> Adrian, PM me your insult.



What are you saying Larry? I never insulted you. What? I only insult people that are a minimum 9000 miles away! No, you're mistaken on this one.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 22, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Adrian insulted me and I didn't get to see it?? I am heartbroken.
> ...



I was kidding. I'm trying to be like Nick B, emoticon free.

Although, he added one just for me recently!


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## AC986 (Sep 23, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> ...


Ahh OK. For second there I thought at least one of us was having a senior moment. If I insult someone I wanna know. So little to savour anymore.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 23, 2014)

At 102, they're ALL senior moments.


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