# Performance Samples - Fluid Shorts



## desert (Jul 2, 2017)

http://performancesamples.com/fluidshorts/?ct=t(FluidShorts)&mc_cid=dad33c7109&mc_eid=3b6d2142d2

*Fluid Shorts* is based around performance-sourced off-the-string spiccatos with a smaller string ensemble (8/6/4/3). The instruments are built to function well in moderate repetition, by way of performances that have been deconstructed from phrases into playable samples.


Four individual sections: 8 violins, 6 violas, 4 cellos, and 3 basses
Predominantly principle musicians
Recorded in an ambient hall with close, decca, and wide mic positions
Section unity – all musicians performing on the same session
Three dynamic layers (two on basses), from moderately soft to FFF
All assets are performance-sourced (pulled from recorded repetitions) for cohesion, and manually timed for consistency
*Two delay levels: normal (127 ms) and tight (80 ms)*
48kHz / 24bit
NCW-compressed, ~2.57 GB total
Built for Kontakt 5.5.1 and above – *full, retail version of Kontakt required*
Download via Continuata


Oh my...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 2, 2017)

The library name is hilarious. Sounds like incontinence.


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## Saxer (Jul 2, 2017)

I like this One-Trick-Pony concept. Especially designed for special musical situations where most other sample instruments lag. Not too expensive and you know what you get.
In this case I'd prefer an additional no-delay switch for realtime playing (less fluid sounding but better playable) and the delayed versions for playback only.


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## AdamKmusic (Jul 2, 2017)

Sooo...it's not a phrase library?


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## MatFluor (Jul 2, 2017)

AdamKmusic said:


> Sooo...it's not a phrase library?



To quickly quote the website itself:

"*Fluid Shorts* is based around performance-sourced off-the-string spiccatos with a smaller string ensemble (8/6/4/3). The instruments are built to function well in moderate repetition, by way of performances that have been deconstructed from phrases into playable samples."


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 3, 2017)

Apparently it's like the VSL performance repetitions - instead of having a bunch of different short note "one shots", actual repeated performance phrases have been recorded and sliced up into single notes, so that when you play repetition phrases, you're not hearing standalone samples, but notes that actually "belong" together, resulting in a much more believable and less artificial "machine gun" sound.


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## jamwerks (Jul 3, 2017)

I find that very interesting. Would need to see a technical walk-through though to see/hear exactly what's going on, how it works and what the strengths/limitations might be. Seems very promising.


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## Musicam (Jul 3, 2017)

desert said:


> http://performancesamples.com/fluidshorts/?ct=t(FluidShorts)&mc_cid=dad33c7109&mc_eid=3b6d2142d2
> 
> *Fluid Shorts* is based around performance-sourced off-the-string spiccatos with a smaller string ensemble (8/6/4/3). The instruments are built to function well in moderate repetition, by way of performances that have been deconstructed from phrases into playable samples.
> 
> ...




When an cinemtatic orchestra?


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## rottoy (Jul 3, 2017)

Musicam said:


> When an cinemtaic orchestra?


Et tu, Brute?


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## Musicam (Jul 3, 2017)

English please, what?


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## Musicam (Jul 3, 2017)

rottoy said:


> Et tu, Brute?


What?


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## Musicam (Jul 3, 2017)

rottoy said:


> Et tu, Brute?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 3, 2017)

Musicam said:


>



I think it wasn´t clear what you meant.  But I guess you would like to know if this product design is going to other instrument sections? Nobody knows exactly..


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## Musicam (Jul 3, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I think it wasn´t clear what you meant.  But I guess you would like to know if this product design is going to other instrument sections? Nobody knows exactly..




Yes very clear, when a cinematic orchestra? The sound is great. Do you understand?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 3, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The library name is hilarious. Sounds like incontinence.



Guess whats the next library: Hard Longs - Quadruple 16va Fortissimo Wagner Tuba Ostinato Machine  short: HARD LONG TOM!


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## rottoy (Jul 3, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Guess whats the next library: Hard Longs - Quadruple 16va Fortissimo Wagner Tuba Ostinato Machine  short: HARD LONG TOM!


Does this mean I can finally hit the brown note?!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 3, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Guess whats the next library: Hard Longs - Quadruple 16va Fortissimo Wagner Tuba Ostinato Machine  short: HARD LONG TOM!


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## procreative (Jul 3, 2017)

Musicam said:


> What?



I think this went over your head, I believe he was making fun of your mispelt post which sounded like Latin, hence the quote from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar!


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## Dirk Ehlert (Jul 3, 2017)

I did a little playthrough on twitch (and no more 5 sec audio stops )


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## jamwerks (Jul 3, 2017)

Listened to the first 23 minutes of the video. Sounds pretty good. Listened on my email portable pc... is it just me, or is the audio reversed left-right?

When he played back et 80bpm, sounded too slow for what they might be able to take. There must just be one speed for these, maybe meant to be fast short notes. Anyway pretty tempting!


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## AdamKmusic (Jul 3, 2017)

Well that's convinced me to buy it


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## rottoy (Jul 3, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> Listened to the first 23 minutes of the video. Sounds pretty good. Listened on my email portable pc... is it just me, or is the audio reversed left-right?


I heard this too. Dirk, could you chime in here?


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## Dirk Ehlert (Jul 3, 2017)

I had headphones on and didn't spot any oddities... i'll re-check in the stream later but the samples themselves def sound "in place"...


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## Musicam (Jul 3, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Guess whats the next library: Hard Longs - Quadruple 16va Fortissimo Wagner Tuba Ostinato Machine  short: HARD LONG TOM!


...


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## jamwerks (Jul 3, 2017)

de_signs said:


> I had headphones on and didn't spot any oddities... i'll re-check in the stream later but the samples themselves def sound "in place"...


For me, the Violas, Celli & Double basses sounded left, and Violons sounded right.


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## kurtvanzo (Jul 3, 2017)

de_signs said:


> I had headphones on and didn't spot any oddities... i'll re-check in the stream later but the samples themselves def sound "in place"...



Thanks for this stream Dirk. Could you also check to see if there is a reverb on these string shorts? (Under the hood) Every mic position sounds like it has the same medium reverb and on it (including the close mic) and from your Kontakt meters I think it may be in the patch. Check insert and send fx in edit mode. Seems weird there is no dry sound, and I can't believe the room would have that consistent a reverb across all mics (unless you are adding a reverb to the session?). Thanks.


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## nulautre (Jul 3, 2017)

Musicam said:


> What?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar_(play)


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 3, 2017)

Ok,jokes aside: This Tool is for me a one trick pony, but does - what it does pretty excellent from what I heard thus far.


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## sostenuto (Jul 3, 2017)

Octogenarians understand 'Fluid Shorts' better than most !!


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## Dirk Ehlert (Jul 3, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> Thanks for this stream Dirk. Could you also check to see if there is a reverb on these string shorts? (Under the hood) Every mic position sounds like it has the same medium reverb and on it (including the close mic) and from your Kontakt meters I think it may be in the patch. Check insert and send fx in edit mode. Seems weird there is no dry sound, and I can't believe the room would have that consistent a reverb across all mics (unless you are adding a reverb to the session?). Thanks.



No additional verb in Kontakt. In the beginning I'm checking all the mic positions. all the verb that is still present is "baked in". For my taste the dry signal (though it still contains) verb sounds significantly drier than Decca and especially wide. It's not bone dry like LASS but you can get creative with different mic blendings.


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## kurtvanzo (Jul 3, 2017)

de_signs said:


> No additional verb in Kontakt. In the beginning I'm checking all the mic positions. all the verb that is still present is "baked in". For my taste the dry signal (though it still contains) verb sounds significantly drier than Decca and especially wide. It's not bone dry like LASS but you can get creative with different mic blendings.



This is a shame. For me this is a lot of reverb, which also means combining this with other libraries will be difficult. To be honest I couldn't hear a lot of difference betwen the close and decca, because the baked in reverb is so much (and I listened on a few different systems to be sure). If there is really no other reverb added to the system, then these would be the wettest shorts I know of on a close mic. And that includes Symphobia, Cinestrings, Metro Ark, CSS, CS2, and even Albion 1 and One. It's weird that they would bake in reverb like this, because I can't see any room adding reverb to all mics so consistently. I hope I'm wrong.

Edit: I just listened in studio and there def is a consistent reverb across all mics, the room is more pronounced in the farther mics but the added reverb is consistent. So if no reverb is added in the session or in Kontakt and this is truely baked in verb, it's fairly useless for anything but a very wet mix. I can't understand why they would do this on shorts, where you need the most amount of flexibility and control. I assume also the envelope release must be turned up, or it's adding release tail samples. If it's the former, I wonder what turning down the release under the hood would do.

Can anyone else who has the library confirm Dirk's screencast is as dry as it gets?


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## Johann F. (Jul 3, 2017)

Listening to the playthrough - thanks Dirk - fast lines sound convincing, this one will go straight to my template. $49 is a steal to be honest.

LR is definitely reversed, that's on purpose?


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## AdamKmusic (Jul 3, 2017)

Well I dropped the money on it, can't wait to try it out later with an idea I was working on over the weekend!


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## rottoy (Jul 3, 2017)

I'm still wondering why the stereo field is seemingly inverted.


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## rpaillot (Jul 3, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> This is a shame. For me this is a lot of reverb, which also means combining this with other libraries will be difficult. To be honest I couldn't hear a lot of difference betwen the close and decca, because the baked in reverb is so much (and I listened on a few different systems to be sure). If there is really no other reverb added to the system, then these would be the wettest shorts I know of on a close mic. And that includes Symphobia, Cinestrings, Metro Ark, CSS, CS2, and even Albion 1 and One. It's weird that they would bake in reverb like this, because I can't see any room adding reverb to all mics so consistently. I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Edit: I just listened in studio and there def is a consistent reverb across all mics, the room is more pronounced in the farther mics but the added reverb is consistent. So if no reverb is added in the session or in Kontakt and this is truely baked in verb, it's fairly useless for anything but a very wet mix. I can't understand why they would do this on shorts, where you need the most amount of flexibility and control. I assume also the envelope release must be turned up, or it's adding release tail samples. If it's the former, I wonder what turning down the release under the hood would do. If it's the latter, than there is no fix besides trying to rebuild the instrument without the release samples. :/
> 
> Can anyone else who has the library confirm Dirk's screencast is as dry as it gets? I suppose it will save me $49, but I was really hoping to use these for faster lines.



Frankly these are the most convincing shorts I've ever heard. Sure it's probably limited to a few music style, but it's definitely great.
Recording shorts in a hall like this is part of why it sounds so great.
Why East west platinum sounded so great at the time.. because of the hall sound!


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## Dirk Ehlert (Jul 3, 2017)

Okay guys, I've looked again at the issues.



After relistening - yeah the "Dry" mic is still pretty wet. That may be intentional, the manual says recorded in an ambient hall, so maybe even "Dry" has a bunch of tail. It's not too much for my taste, but what do I know 

So I've went back and made a little track with the same patterns from the stream, the first is the dry mic only on all 4 sections @0 dB.

The second is the same dry mic only but I edited the AHDSR release in Kontakt to roughly 350-400 ms.

Afterwards is all 4 sections with 4 quarternotes, same setting as above dry as from the lib, and dry with release turned down.

The stereofield is not inverted, Vlns are left, Violas / Celli middle and basses right (as can be heard in the little excerpt as well). I haven't checked yet but if anything is messed up in the stream it's my fault in the setup of the new streaming software, not the library.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Dirk

*Edit: I just checked the stream and for whatever reason I don't know yet, the channels are inverted indeed. I have no idea why, but the samples themselves actually are in situ. Sorry for the mess.*


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## Quasar (Jul 3, 2017)

de_signs said:


> Okay guys, I've looked again at the issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for doing this and the video. (Glad you got your 5 sec dropout solved!) I was oblivious to the L/R inversion on computer speakers LOL, but definitely was taken aback by how baked the "performance-sourced" samples sound. 

To my ears at least, the release change setting in Kontakt presented in the second snippet here helps quite a bit, and has answered my question of whether this is too wet for me to purchase. Now I just have to determine if they offer anything new and different enough to justify the expense. But the natural, organic character of the library sounds very good to me, and the intro price is attractive.


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## DeactivatedAcc (Jul 3, 2017)

In response to the mention of baked-in reverb. You’re probably hearing the decay xfades/grafts. The attacks share decays after several hundred ms into the note. i.e. Multi-rr attacks which fade into the same decay tail. The one exception to this is the violas, which have a few rr for the decays. Beyond that, this room is pretty ambient which probably makes what you’re hearing a bit more audible. 

I hope this helps.

Best,
Jasper


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## kurtvanzo (Jul 3, 2017)

de_signs said:


> Okay guys, I've looked again at the issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for this Dirk, it's indeed what I was concerned about. Turning down the release on the ADSR does help, but it does mean the library will be difficult to mix with other libraries, just something to consider when using the library.

I also don't believe this is reverb from the hall. I can hear the room(medium to large studio or recording stage) it was recorded on since the ambient and decca try mics do have extra room on them (besides the added reverb). But the reverb is very different.

I think because this was sampled from fast repetitions, the tails must have sounded very cut off, so as a solution they've added reverb (perhaps an ir sample from a medium to large hall, or a more expensive reverb unit) to make the samples sound more natural when played in a sampler. Unfortunately they've added the same reverb, in what seems to be the same degree, to every mic. So although the farther mics have more "room", the reverb is the same.

A more elegant solution would have been to use the samples at the end of each repetitive run (which would mean much more would need to get recorded) or graft the tail of the last note to each sample (which would be time consuming). I realize why they chose this route (to save time and money) but you end up with short samples that have a long reverb baked in, not ideal for quick runs. It can (and does) get muddy the faster you play from all the overlapping reverb.

And I won't get into the claim "recorded in an ambient hall"- only to say if this were true and that reverb were the issue, the close mics would sound very different from the decca and ambient mics. The ambient mics would be almost unusable (all reverb and very distant string sound) , and certainly not have a room sound on them, which they do. Perhaps this can be re-examined at a later date, or they can release a truely dry (although cut off tails) version so we can add our own reverb, at least that would give us an option. Regardless this may be a small issue for some if it mixes well with their libraries as is, and turning down the release (which I also do on some other libraries, including Project Sam) may be a workable option for others. Perhaps they could (like PS) include a release knob?


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## AdamKmusic (Jul 3, 2017)

Downloaded it and loving it so far, turned the decca mic off and brought the wide mic down too and kept the close mic relatively normal. Think it sounds great, did my little own HZ Dark Knight Ostinato test and it sounds fantastic, think this will be my go to staccato patch. Can't complain for £46!


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## Pontus Rufelt (Jul 3, 2017)

In the spirit of transparency I've been lucky to get to beta test Fluid Shorts and thus received the library for free. I am really glad that a sample dev finally kept so much of the natural decay and ambience in a short articulation for strings. The alternative often renders the samples quite lifeless, at least to my ears. The preserved decay and being performance sourced, really takes things to a different level in terms of authenticity. When comparing to more traditional approaches to sampling string shorts, this really stands out as more lively and convincing. Knowing how much I'll be using this, I'd have happily paid twice the asking price. Now I can effortlessly make "Audiomachine-style" string repetitions.


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## desert (Jul 3, 2017)

Pontus Rufelt said:


> Now I can effortlessly make "Audiomachine-style" string repetitions.


Exactly what I was going to use them for!


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## NoamL (Jul 3, 2017)

I'm not sure what you all are hearing, what I'm hearing is a library that rivals CSS & LASS & Adventure Strings for the one thing it does.

My one concern from the demos was that the performance sampling methodology would force this library to be relatively slow, but the walkthrough & demos by Dirk showed it's a whiz at fast 16th passages too. Couldn't hit the buy button fast enough.


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## Quasar (Jul 3, 2017)

NoamL said:


> I'm not sure what you all are hearing, what I'm hearing is a library that rivals CSS & LASS & Adventure Strings for the one thing it does.
> 
> My one concern from the demos was that the performance sampling methodology would force this library to be relatively slow, but the walkthrough & demos by Dirk showed it's a whiz at fast 16th passages too. Couldn't hit the buy button fast enough.


Do you think it will blend well with the Spitfire's famous Lyndurst Hall universe?


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## NoamL (Jul 3, 2017)

If you mean in terms of stacking strings? No not really, because it's more of a scoring-stage sound. I've tried it next to Albion1 and Iceni and they don't blend. Fluid Shorts works much better with Jasper's other string and brass libs.


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## desert (Jul 3, 2017)

NoamL said:


> If you mean in terms of stacking strings? No not really, because it's more of a scoring-stage sound. I've tried it next to Albion1 and Iceni and they don't blend. Fluid Shorts works much better with Jasper's other string and brass libs.


Noaml, does the verb build up if you're playing 16th notes? I'm about to purchase this. It would be great if these small libraries turn into one big Blunk orchestra :D


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## jamwerks (Jul 4, 2017)

During a vln passage, I can hear what seems to be release trails (not really reverb) slightly more left. I can believe that this must be a necessary trade-off for the realistic sound.

Definite buy, and hoping for other arts coming from the same hall. Would love a ostinato legato art (C D C D C D C D ) capable of sounding as real as these shorts.

I also bought Jasper's Oceana, he really is pushing the bar higher in realism.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jul 4, 2017)

A good library


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 4, 2017)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> A good library



Yes, that is true, but that here sounds not ...äh...good for me and is such of a bad intepretation of Tiersens Work.  Sorry to say. I repeat myself: Do spent more time on your videos, *put some effort and love into your work please..*.I know..poor Thorsten, you try hard, I am pretty sure My general tip here: work on the velocities notes..don´t program.....perform the lines..if you can´t, then slower the tempo.The piece is too fast in general. Those string players are on crack and they get a heartattack, when they play at ff at such speed, so slow down the tempo..a least a bit..you didn´t ask for feedback, as you seem anyways to ignore any feedback, but hope is dieing at last.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jul 4, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> Thanks Thorsten, ironically this is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't mean to harp on this but does no one else notice the constant reverb buildup during this video? It's so much to me that I don't even notice the noise in the samples someone mentioned until the end of the video, where it sticks out after all the reverb finally dies. I'm sure varying the velocities would help the piece as Alexander mentions, but all of that is minor to me if I have a wall of reverb to overcome.
> 
> It just seems strange to me but perhaps I'm just too sensitive to it. If it works for the music your doing then great. I'm just surprised more people don't notice. But enough from me, apologies.


The noise might come from the tube and pre I used on the single instruments. For the reverb nones was put on top from my side. I do another version with no tune, pre and use close mics for you only)


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## Musicam (Jul 4, 2017)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> A good library




Are the first violins Fluid Shorts?


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jul 4, 2017)

Musicam said:


> Are the first violins Fluid Shorts?



I used violin, viola, cello, and bass from Fluid Shorts, the normal patch version.


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## Musicam (Jul 4, 2017)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> I used violin, viola, cello, and bass from Fluid Shorts, the normal patch version.



Oh thanks! Are all included in Fluid Shorts?


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jul 4, 2017)

Musicam said:


> Oh thanks! Are all included in Fluid Shorts?



Yes I used Fluid Shorts only


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## The Darris (Jul 4, 2017)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> A good library



What? No credit to Yann Tiersen where credit is due?


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jul 4, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> Thanks Thorsten, ironically this is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't mean to harp on this but does no one else notice the constant reverb buildup during this video? It's so much to me that I don't even notice the noise in the samples someone mentioned until the end of the video, where it sticks out after all the reverb finally dies. I'm sure varying the velocities would help the piece as Alexander mentions, but all of that is minor to me if I have a wall of reverb to overcome.
> 
> It just seems strange to me but perhaps I'm just too sensitive to it. If it works for the music your doing then great. I'm just surprised more people don't notice. But enough from me, apologies.


ok,

A new version with no tube and amp while using the close mic only



and the original version


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## jtnyc (Jul 4, 2017)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> A good library




Sounds like there is a noise pad of reverb sustaining throughout the whole piece.


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## AdamKmusic (Jul 4, 2017)

Here's my little HZ Dark Knight test, using the normal samples with delay at -127. With this mic set up for the strings -


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## Ben E (Jul 6, 2017)

I’ve been a lurker here for some time. So much good info from all of you.


I was intrigued by this library so I went ahead and got it. I think it sounds great. I threw the violins and violas on the beginning of Mendelssohn’s Midsummer Night’s Dream to post here for a test. 


A few things about the library:


1. It does seem to mix well with Spitfire’s strings (at least Sable.) 


2. The samples run quite late from the grid. At 250 BPM the 1/8 note midi events had to be placed a full 1/16 note ahead of the beat to line up with the click. The Sable spiccatos, for instance, while not sounding as realistic in this context, don't have that lag.


3. I used the lowest velocity (1) in this recording except for accents (10). As you’ll hear, it’s not light enough for the piece (which is supposed to be pp.) So there’s a limitation there.


4. All notes in the recording are quantized to the grid for this test. If the click were playing you’d hear that the notes are consistently behind the click, but since only the strings are sounding there was no need to nudge the notes to hit with other instruments.


5. I used the “normal” articulation.


6. The mics are set: Close -1.5, Decca 0, Wide -2.6


The raw midi was downloaded from a free midi site and was contributed by someone named Jean-François Lucarelli.

http://beneshbach.com/resources/music/music/Midsummer Night's Dream.mp3


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## zacnelson (Jul 6, 2017)

Ben E said:


> I was intrigued by this library so I went ahead and got it. I think it sounds great. I threw the violins and violas on the beginning of Mendelssohn’s Midsummer Night’s Dream to post here for a test.



Sounds really impressive, thanks for posting this


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## PeterJCroissant (Jul 11, 2017)

Love the Fluid shorts- never had so much fun with strings.

Highly recommended.


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## prodigalson (Jul 11, 2017)

I'm having a strange issue. apologies if this has been addressed at some point, couldn't find any reference to it. In the violins (normal) patch it almost sounds like the release sample plays BEFORE the main sample. the same is true for the cello (normal) patch. the "tight" patches seem ok...

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fluidshorts-ex-mp3.9057/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fluidshorts-cello-ex-mp3.9058/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## DeactivatedAcc (Jul 11, 2017)

Hi Prodigalson - that's decay from the previous note - these are multi-samples I sliced & timed from performance phrases, so you hear some of the previous note since the hall is pretty ambient. More obvious in isolated notes than in repetition.. cranking the close mics can help. But for those who prefer less delayed (and also less decay bleed), the tight alt patches are probably the way to go.


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## prodigalson (Jul 11, 2017)

Jasper Blunk said:


> Hi Prodigalson - that's decay from the previous note - these are multi-samples I sliced & timed from performance phrases, so you hear some of the previous note since the hall is pretty ambient. More obvious in isolated notes than in repetition.. cranking the close mics can help. But for those who prefer less delayed (and also less decay bleed), the tight alt patches are probably the way to go.



Thanks Jasper, for your quick response to this. It looks like this library is - by it's nature - very different in design and use than what I'm used to so it's great to know how I should think about using it differently. i.e. these are samples I should think about using solely in repetition phrases.

The samples themselves sound fantastic and sure enough, one you start "performing" them in repetitions they come alive. congrats!


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## FGBR (Jul 12, 2017)

I'm having a lot of fun with these.


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## Vovique (Jul 12, 2017)

FGBR said:


> I'm having a lot of fun with these.



You made me wanna buy these fluids


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## prodigalson (Jul 12, 2017)

It would be really nice to have both delay types in once patch, keyswitchable maybe


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## GonzoFB (Jul 12, 2017)

Although it begins the gentle chipping away at Black Friday money, I had to pick this up.


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## chillbot (Jul 12, 2017)

Ben E said:


> 2. The samples run quite late from the grid. At 250 BPM the 1/8 note midi events had to be placed a full 1/16 note ahead of the beat to line up with the click.



OK this for me. As good as these sound, they are completely unplayable. How does anyone work with these samples?

Also, yes the close mics are still too wet for me. All that aside I do like the way they sound but if I can't play them I'm not sure how to use them.


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## Pontus Rufelt (Jul 12, 2017)

chillbot said:


> OK this for me. As good as these sound, they are completely unplayable. How does anyone work with these samples?
> 
> Also, yes the close mics are still too wet for me. All that aside I do like the way they sound but if I can't play them I'm not sure how to use them.



Having more delay in samples definitely requires a lil' more of us when playing it in, but I find that it only takes some getting used to and I'd much rather work with delay and have the genuine attack preserved, rather than cut off like in most libraries. Preserving the attack makes the sound a lot more authentic (that awesome oomph) and lends itself very well to having more liveliness in a mockup.

But if even the tighter patches are too delayed for you, you can just open up the patch, select all zones in the mapping editor, move the sample start point to your preferred tightness in the wave editor, and then apply that sample start point to all zones.

But yeah, it's much better to have that material available for authenticity, than to not have it at all in my opinion. I've found them easy to work with, but that of course depends on what kind of latency one works with in the DAW too.


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## Quasar (Jul 12, 2017)

chillbot said:


> OK this for me. As good as these sound, they are completely unplayable. How does anyone work with these samples?
> 
> Also, yes the close mics are still too wet for me. All that aside I do like the way they sound but if I can't play them I'm not sure how to use them.



I've been strongly considering the library too. Dirk Ehlert, in his excellent video, talks about this at about 8:13, and shows how you can easily use a timing offset in Cubase to perfectly line up the notes to the grid.

My issue is that I'm not sure if this can be similarly done in Reaper, and if it can't, I may have to pass. The video is set to the relevant time:


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## chillbot (Jul 12, 2017)

Quasar said:


> I've been strongly considering the library too. Dirk Ehlert, in his excellent video, talks about this at about 8:13, and shows how you can easily use a timing offset in Cubase to perfectly line up the notes to the grid.


This is fair. I just don't know how to play it. To also be fair, I play everything in, I'm a keyboard player, and I normally work at single digit latency. So I might be a bit biased. I guess I'm just a bit surprised more people weren't curious about the latency that I am measuring at +40ms built in to the "tight" samples.


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## PeterJCroissant (Jul 12, 2017)

chillbot said:


> This is fair. I just don't know how to play it. To also be fair, I play everything in, I'm a keyboard player, and I normally work at single digit latency. So I might be a bit biased. I guess I'm just a bit surprised more people weren't curious about the latency that I am measuring at +40ms built in to the "tight" samples.


Have you tried using step time to create / write? I have not used step time for about 30 years! But with this it's very practical.

Best
Pete


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## NoamL (Jul 12, 2017)

From the manual...

*Two delay levels: normal (127 ms) and tight (80 ms)*
You need to use a track delay, e.g. put a -127ms track delay if you load up the normal articulation. Yes, these aren't for live playing, they're for mockups. However the delay levels are *highly precise *- just play or write it in, quantize 100%, use the corresponding track delay and everything lines up perfectly.

I will always be a champion for this sampling method. This is a feature, not a bug. People said the same thing about CSS but I love this! Trust me in the future all libraries will have inherent delay to pick up those beautiful transitions and NI will work out some kind of MIDI protocol hack workaround with Steinberg and Apple to get them to run natively (har har) in our DAWs.

The results speak for themselves TBH and need no evangelism from me


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## mac (Jul 13, 2017)

I dunno, I feel like libraries with huge latency end up making us half musician, half programmer. It'd be awesome if there was a live mode with no latency and uber tight samples for playing in, and a playback mode which used the full samples with the delay taken care of by the library automatically.


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## AdamKmusic (Jul 13, 2017)

mac said:


> I dunno, I feel like libraries with huge latency end up making us half musician, half programmer. It'd be awesome if there was a live mode with no latency and uber tight samples for playing in, and a playback mode which used the full samples with the delay taken care of by the library automatically.


 
99% of us compose (with orchestral samples) in the box so what difference does it make?


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## desert (Jul 13, 2017)

AdamKmusic said:


> 99%


 lolz


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## rottoy (Jul 13, 2017)

AdamKmusic said:


> 99% of us compose (with orchestral samples) in the box


Speak for yourself, I compose in a spherical object of unknown origin.


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## mac (Jul 13, 2017)

AdamKmusic said:


> 99% of us compose (with orchestral samples) in the box so what difference does it make?



What's your point?


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## Quasar (Jul 13, 2017)

chillbot said:


> *To also be fair, I play everything in, I'm a keyboard player, and I normally work at single digit latency.* *So I might be a bit biased. I guess I'm just a bit surprised more people weren't curious about the latency* that I am measuring at +40ms built in to the "tight" samples.



Same here on all counts, and I am curious about it too, which is the main reason I haven't purchased this yet. But if, as suggested, it's a feature, and worth the hassle in order to get more "realistic" note transitions, it may be worth exploring... The limitations inherent in playing orchestral strings percussively (which is what happens with a keyboard) are obvious, even though I don't currently relate to the Fluid Shorts concept.


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## Saxer (Jul 13, 2017)

I can't understand why there's no 'low-latency'-mode just for recording. Same with CSS and it's three different delays. It needs just a simple switch that cuts the preroll for real time playing. After recording a switch into DAW play mode with a fixed long delay time that can be compensated by negative track delay. Would be extreme helpful.

My workaround is recording with a piano sound and dragging the midi data to the bloody lethargic string track.


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## PeterJCroissant (Jul 13, 2017)

Saxer said:


> I can't understand why there's no 'low-latency'-mode just for recording. Same with CSS and it's three different delays. It needs just a simple switch that cuts the preroll for real time playing. After recording a switch into DAW play mode with a fixed long delay time that can be compensated by negative track delay. Would be extreme helpful.
> 
> My workaround is recording with a piano sound and dragging the midi data to the bloody lethargic string track.


Well not to appear rude, but because it's 50 quid maybe? I have to be honest I don't find a problem.....


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## Saxer (Jul 13, 2017)

PeterJCroissant said:


> Well not to appear rude, but because it's 50 quid maybe? I have to be honest I don't find a problem.....


No problem with rudeness 
The problem is an addition of latencies... midi keyboard, audio interface and the library itself. For my taste a library delay of 30ms feels a bit sloppy but still 'realtime' if it's a non percussive sound. Every quid later is one quid too late. 80 is far off. I can't play 16th to a click when the acoustic feedback comes 1/32th late. Maybe others can. I can't.


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## PeterJCroissant (Jul 13, 2017)

I see- but what about using step time recording? Is that something you'd be prepared to use?


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## JohnBMears (Jul 13, 2017)

From my work with it thus far it is most certainly a patch to be programmed, not performed. I have been attempting to use it to add some sharpness to the otherwise 'chunky' spiccatos from Hollywood Strings. But it seems like it would only be applicable for musical "chugga-chugga" lines. And there's nothing wrong with that- but for using it within a passage where a few spiccatos accompany other longer note values, it would be a nightmare to line up. Certainly a one trick pony- but a good trick. And for $50, no biggie to me.


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## Saxer (Jul 13, 2017)

PeterJCroissant said:


> I see- but what about using step time recording? Is that something you'd be prepared to use?


Yepp, there are always ways to get something into the DAW... slowing tempo, step recording, using other sounds for recording, using arpeggiators, and probably some more... but it's always an extra step.
A realtime and a playback mode is doable (Orangetree Angelic Harp has a preroll amount knob for that). So it's not a sience fiction idea.


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## NoamL (Jul 13, 2017)

Saxer, there is a low latency mode for CSS, there's a folder of "Classic Legato" patches. The delay still exists of course but it's taken down to the typical string legato (Mural HWS etc) timeframes.

At this point I've used CSS so often I just play it in, cuz I'm used to the delay. For fast stuff I'm not a good enough pianist so I just write it in.


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## Saxer (Jul 14, 2017)

Things are different to different people. So all I can talk about is my own point of view. I'll try a little explanation: I know all ways how to get things into a DAW (I'm not a good piano player) and if I have a ready written arrangement I have no real problem using delayed sample libraries... I know where everything should be and I'm fast in editing.
It's a completely different thing when I'm composing or arranging in the DAW. When I try musical ideas I get mad when I don't get the feedback I expect. That concerns timing and sound as well... too much room or not the right CC-curve or too long release tails... all that dissociates me from the feel of playing it. I find myself hammering on the keyboard much harder or riding CC higher to compensate that (like pushing harder on a remote control when the battery gehts low). It's idiotic, I know. But there are libraries I get things done with and there are libraries that outbrakes my output. Often it's the last category that sounds better. Imperfect world  That's the reason I ask for playability that much.


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## PeterJCroissant (Jul 14, 2017)

Understood- I wonder if Jasper could add this feature then... sounds like it would be useful to quite a few people and thus more sales..


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## DeactivatedAcc (Jul 14, 2017)

I’ll include 30ms ultra-tight patches and ambience control with the update. 

I’ve been working with large amounts of sample delay for years, which has in turn guided some of my preferences & decisions with sampling. Everyone seems to have their own definition of what playability is. For me playability is primarily about gratification and predictable consistency, not insta-responsiveness. Take Oceania, which was more delayed than some may be used to (80 ms) but I manually timed the multiple speeds of reps and releases to respond reasonably consistently.

With sampling, I’ve never felt any sort of adherence to convention - and with Fluid Shorts even more than Oceania, some of that is probably starting to come to light. Over my next handful of larger orchestral/choral releases, it will probably continue becoming clearer where I stand. Performance Samples is me building libraries along the lines of my own inclinations, rather than a more traditional business-focused sample developer operation with a big post-pro team trying to cater to everyone’s wants and needs.

In the end it’s a somewhat personal flavor of sampling among the many options out there. It will work for some people and not for others. My task is building the libraries and making them available - I will leave it to everyone to evaluate the approach for applicability in their workflows.

best,
Jasper


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## Quasar (Jul 14, 2017)

I purchased this today (before reading about the impending update) because the sonics are superb, and I decided I could live with 80 and 127ms delays. Evil Dragon (on the Reaper forums) told me about an included MIDI utility (JS Delay Time Adjustment) that works the same way that Dirk Ehlert showed in his FS overview video for delay offset in Cubase.

Really cool library, and though I can get used to even the longer "normal" delay I think, a 30ms patch would indeed be awesome for us keyboard players who just like to play stuff in.


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## HiEnergy (Jul 20, 2017)

I bought Fluid Shorts today and did some testing.
This is what I've come up with after some fiddling (pun intended):
https://hearthis.at/hienergy/test-mit-fluid-shorts/


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## Quasar (Jul 20, 2017)

HiEnergy said:


> I bought Fluid Shorts today and did some testing.
> This is what I've come up with after some fiddling (pun intended):
> https://hearthis.at/hienergy/test-mit-fluid-shorts/


Nice test. That's delightful, and it shows the library in a very good light.


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## PeterJCroissant (Jul 24, 2017)

well it inspired me to write this...all the fast strings are Fluid..


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## HiEnergy (Jul 24, 2017)

I did it again and made a quick test loop with Fluid Shorts. This time together with Albion 1 High String Spiccato Ostinatum.

It's here: https://hearthis.at/hienergy/test-albion-ostinatum-fluid-shorts/

I've used Fluid Shorts to play the celli and the Albion 1 Ostinatum strings for violin/viola spiccato.
This is a raw, unedited track. No additional effects, no mixing/mastering.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jul 26, 2017)

In Logic X the fluid shorts are easily asking a lot from CPU usage? Anyone else experiencing this?

@Jasper Blunk : is there some specific scripting going on that makes these shorts spike CPU up?
I tried a "ensemble" patch spread over 3 tracks of violins, viola, cello's and it quickly makes the CPU jump to panic mode.

PS: I will try later in Vepro6 but I hoped this would not be needed. Also so I can use it on my mobile setup as well.

PS2: getting a lot of enjoyment out of these string shorts, playing with the tight version makes life more happy...


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## Przemek K. (Aug 3, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> In Logic X the fluid shorts are easily asking a lot from CPU usage? Anyone else experiencing this?
> 
> @Jasper Blunk : is there some specific scripting going on that makes these shorts spike CPU up?
> I tried a "ensemble" patch spread over 3 tracks of violins, viola, cello's and it quickly makes the CPU jump to panic mode.
> ...




Good question. I'm on Cubase 9 and latest Kontakt version and experiencing the same behaviour. Interestingly I don't get the spikes when running this library in Kontakt standalone.
Any ideas?

Besides that, this lib sounds absolutely great. Thanks Jasper


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## Silence-is-Golden (Aug 4, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> Good question. I'm on Cubase 9 and latest Kontakt version and experiencing the same behaviour. Interestingly I don't get the spikes when running this library in Kontakt standalone.
> Any ideas?
> 
> Besides that, this lib sounds absolutely great. Thanks Jasper


Well, I just got some new idea's from another thread: I am going to try if I can convert this to an Exs instrument when I have some time.
That will most likely solve the cpu issue.

Then I also get some experience of this how to do that with Exs.

These shorts are very usefull aren't they!
I haven't yet tried layering/ combining them with other libs, but I am sure they will work with SCS, LASS and L&S chamber strings.


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## Przemek K. (Aug 4, 2017)

Well, they do blend rather well with Hollywood Strings Diamond and give a little more bite.

Would be great if this issue with spiking could be resolved somehow. Have a feeling that it has something to do with Kontakt (latest version), but would need to test it, just don't have the time right now.


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## esencia (Sep 7, 2017)

I'm really interested if someone has compared this library with "Adventure strings". As far as I know they are also using similar technology creating short articulations from real phrases..


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## PeterJCroissant (Sep 16, 2017)

I love this library, it is the cheapest but the most loved.... here is another... @Jasper Blunk Could you make a brass library in the same manner? man that would be soo good...brass staccatos sound so plastic doing runs...


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## AdamKmusic (Sep 16, 2017)

Yes please, would love Brass & maybe a woodwind one too!


PeterJCroissant said:


> I love this library, it is the cheapest but the most loved.... here is another... @Jasper Blunk Could you make a brass library in the same manner? man that would be soo good...brass staccatos sound so plastic doing runs...


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## rlundv (Mar 8, 2019)

PeterJCroissant said:


> well it inspired me to write this...all the fast strings are Fluid..




Really wonderful demo!! What libraries used for the long strings and brass?


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## PeterJCroissant (Mar 8, 2019)

beyd770 said:


> Really wonderful demo!! What libraries used for the long strings and brass?




Oh wow thank you! Well it’s not as easy as a single library unfortunately.

I would of used 8DIO century brass for sure, but I mixed in some NI symphony brass as I always do, more their french horns and trombones.

Strings I used 8DIO anthology, but again i mix in either NI symphony strings and perhaps a solo violin from virharmonic, very subtle blends.. 

I’m not saying 8DIO is the only way either, I also use Spitfire strings and these are fantastic too. 

Hope that’s useful.

Best
Pete


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## rlundv (Mar 8, 2019)

PeterJCroissant said:


> Oh wow thank you! Well it’s not as easy as a single library unfortunately.
> 
> I would of used 8DIO century brass for sure, but I mixed in some NI symphony brass as I always do, more their french horns and trombones.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much! Does it take a lot of EQ and reverb-setups to get them to sit so nicely together?


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## S R Krishnan (Mar 11, 2019)

A short test with Fluid Shorts and other performance samples libraries.


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