# Composing 4-5 minutes a day - How do you do it?



## damoy (Aug 12, 2009)

So another thread digressed to the topic of composing 4-5 minutes a day for television episodes came up (or just plain volume composing very quickly in short time frames). I find this highly interesting so I started this thread to avoid any appearance of hijacking :mrgreen: . 

For those of you that are doing this, how do you do it? Where do you shave off time while maintaining quality? I'd love to hear stories and insights on this. From what I gathered, loops might be one of the time savers? What else is there?


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## artsoundz (Aug 12, 2009)

It depends on what one is writing for. I do commercials, docs and industrials etc. So sometimes the required output wont allow perfection. But you make up for that in creating an overall impression.So...

I think the art of sketching is crucial to writing a lot of music quickly.

And I think "fine tuning"- can be a negative. So much of what I do is buried under the V.O and,in the end, the producer/director is clueless about reverb tails, up and down bow,legato,bass drum/bass guitar sonic relationship etc etc.. It is SO easy to get bogged down in the details. And with what payoff? It's the overall musical point being made that is important in many cases.

The danger of all that, however, CAN be heard. So it's a very fine line but in short-writing a stream of consciousness approach-sketching- can yield amazing results-one _can _write fast and focused. I'm constantly working on that. Just learning to let it flow. and also, very importantly,to let go of bad ideas as soon as possible. Thats taken me years to figure out-learning to let go of my baby.

I wrote ten minutes once for a Boeing thing-it just sucked but the producers were happy.


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## JohnG (Aug 12, 2009)

Guitar solos?

It's hard to do 4 or 5 minutes a day. It's important to have a clear concept of what it is the music is doing with the picture or show -- why it's there and what its function is. 

No matter how dramatic Desperate Housewives or Monk might get for a few minutes here and there, it's still Desperate Housewives or Monk, so you can only go so far without painting outside the boundaries of what the show's about. So therefore it's sometimes as much about what you don't do for that show or picture, rather than what you affirmatively decide to include.

If I'm going to write that much I like to have ideas -- musical material, in other words -- that I can turn to that you use in that context or for that show. It might be full bits of music or themes, or more cells and ideas -- harmonic, texture, melodic -- maybe some of those together. Having material that can be either plugged in occasionally and / or act as a good starting point is sometimes the only way to get through that much in one day.

If this sounds like uncreative hackwork, the trick is to do these things but still Make It New. Sometimes the challenge of steaming through a lot in a short time makes for really good writing.


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## gsilbers (Aug 12, 2009)

thats a tough one. inspiration? deadlines? good templates? practice? 
styles you are used to? style and budget of the project all of the above?

as proff smalley put on his book.. "never start composing with the 1st note"  

interesting enough my biggest hurdle was technical; i had to bounce tracks in logic

cause my g5 couldn't handle it. so i had to change ad tweak my template for the other cues and routing stems to busses and master print instead of bounce to disk sort of deal. 

i think is also of getting into a "routine" where u know what u want on different scenes as supposed to figuring out wat to do and waiting for "inspiration" 

but i guess everyone has its way of doing it.


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## rJames (Aug 12, 2009)

The first 4 or 5 minutes aren't tough at all for me.

I just go and get a cup of coffee and wait for an idea to strike in the next 9 or 10 hours of the day.

If you're only composing for 4 or 5 minutes a day, I think you have to work harder...come on!!!


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 12, 2009)

Strictly speaking, the actual composing part doesn't really need to take that long. You can essentially create 4-5 minutes of music in a day if you write out the piece with a piano and score it out - melody, progression and the basic structure. The other essential is actually having a full sequencer template built and ready to go for the project at hand.

Understanding the specifics of the project guidelines and writing to fit the genre of the project is really important. One of the keys to speed is the use of orchestration is to embellish upon your basic melody and progressions (which you've already written) and utilizing your midi mock-up methods and library tools to keep your production values up. For super tight schedules and wanting to keep production chops up, the blueprint of the cues via simple scoring needs to be laid out first to work from - this is crucial. Otherwise the danger is to end up grasping for ideas by playing with samples without a clear direction (occasionally this is inspiring - some of the best ideas can come of it but it also can be a big time trap if not careful.)


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## ComposerDude (Aug 12, 2009)

. . .


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## RiffWraith (Aug 12, 2009)

Orginization.

Know your samples and libs, know what they are and are not capable of, their strengths and weaknesses, and know what works when and where.

A good template. Check that - a good _large_ template with a massive amont of instruments loaded.

Have a good, solid workflow that you are comfortable with.

Ability to concentrate and not get distracted.

Know when to stop tweaking, and when to realize that it's not perfect and could be better, but that if it were better, it wouldn't really matter (see artsoundz's post; 3rd paragraph).

Have a good strong knowledge and background of the music you are creating.

Have a good catalogue of the genre of music you are creating at the ready, so that you can turn to it at a moment's notice for inspiration.

Continually use incremental save and backing up projects, settings and audio files, and having everything ready to back up, should a crash and/or corruption occur.

Take short rests on a regular basis to keep your mind, ears and creativity fresh.

Drink plenty of water, get plenty of quality sleep, exercise, and eat a _nutritious, well-balanced _diet rich in protein, fresh fruit and green vegetables, which will help you to hold your concentration, stay focused, and allow creativity to flow.

Be comfortable in your workspace/studio, and be happy with your surroundings (chair, wall color, etc.). If not, make changes so that you are happy.

Learn how to stay calm and relaxed; being uptight and nervous can interfere with creativity.

Make sure you are happy with what you are doing.


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## careyford (Aug 12, 2009)

There are a lot of good ideas and comments here. That's why I like VI. I got a lot out of JohnG especially. 

I think there's a big distinction between 4-5 minutes of composing vs. 4-5 minutes of produced, sequenced music. Sketching that much isn't that difficult for me. Sequencing and producing is more time consuming. From a composing standpoint, I decide a number of things before I start a piece:

• How much do I have to have written today?
• How long will it be?
• What instruments will play it?
• Do I need to allow for specific things timed to the music like hits or big transitions?

The first question is key because it will influence everything. If I need 5 minutes of full orchestra or 2 minutes of piano and guitar, it's a very different day. There are a lot of perfectly valid compositional devices that allow you to write fast. Loops, repeating sections, repeating sections with different instrumentation, additive process, etc. Often it happens that techniques that help you write quickly also result in tighter, more coherent pieces. 

And it doesn't hurt to have a couple of talented assistants. 

Richard


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## careyford (Aug 12, 2009)

+1 to RiffWraith's post


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## Thonex (Aug 12, 2009)

Pick your battles:


forget most of the woodwinds. (I love woodwinds, but directors never miss them)
*commit to your first impulse and idea -- don't second guess yourself... just move forward.
Don't re-invent the wheel. Do what you know... and have done 1 million times... but do it differently.
Copy/paste creatively. 
Write tastefully sparse when called for (as opposed to thick full arrangements)
Writing some good themes that can be used over and over (with variations) can really take the guesswork on what to write.


My 2 cents.

AK

*You'd be surprised how many little pearls you may wirte if you don't second-guess yourself and just plow forward.


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 12, 2009)

For TV series I noticed these 3 time-saving phenomena.

1) Pads
2) Track/part repetition
3) Percussion, rather than actual scoring

So, pick out the scenes which require most intricate, and complex music - or where the music must carry the scene (often they overlap). 

Then you apply the above three "tricks" in between these scenes. 

But some people can write that much music fully orchestrated and mixed. How? I don't know... crazy.


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## damoy (Aug 13, 2009)

Wow, very very interesting read, and some great/creative ideas I've not entertained before reading them here.

I think knowing when to cut off the fine-tuning/tweaking is hard one for me. If I think it can be better, I have a hard time letting go of it.

I guess there's a lot of ways to interpret the scenario. The one that stood out to me from the other thread was repeat's situation:



re-peat @ Tue Aug 11 said:


> You can say that again. I'm currently doing the music for a 13-part tv-series, the first episode of which will be broadcasted on August 30th. It's a dark-ish police show, called 'Code 37', and each episode is around 50 minutes long.
> And now, read carefully: I received the Quicktime material of the first 3 episodes two weeks ago (a fourth episode arrived only last week) and ALL the music for this first batch of four episodes has to be completely finished by next Tuesday (because obviously, the post-production needs some time as well to do the sound design and the final mixes ...). And September, October and November are going to be exactly the same: each month doing the the music for four 50-minute episodes in the space of just a few weeks.
> 
> Anyway, just to say that Heavyocity's Evolve is seeing some seriously heavy usage here these days. (And boy, am I happy that I upgraded my old G5 to one of these new Nehalems just before the project started.)
> ...



Yow :shock:


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## TheoKrueger (Aug 13, 2009)

Thonex @ Thu Aug 13 said:


> Pick your battles:
> 
> 
> forget most of the woodwinds. (I love woodwinds, but directors never miss them)
> ...




Is this from the bible of the surviving composer? Excellent points and post


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## Leandro Gardini (Aug 13, 2009)

rJames @ Wed Aug 12 said:


> The first 4 or 5 minutes aren't tough at all for me.
> 
> I just go and get a cup of coffee and wait for an idea to strike in the next 9 or 10 hours of the day.
> 
> If you're only composing for 4 or 5 minutes a day, I think you have to work harder...come on!!!


I´ve always heard that 3 minutes a day is already a high demand!!!
I also remeber an old thread that someone was asking how much music the composers could make in one day...most of them said about 45 seconds average!!!


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## Ed (Aug 13, 2009)

re-peat @ Tue Aug 11 said:


> You can say that again. I'm currently doing the music for a 13-part tv-series, the first episode of which will be broadcasted on August 30th. It's a dark-ish police show, called 'Code 37', and each episode is around 50 minutes long.
> And now, read carefully: I received the Quicktime material of the first 3 episodes two weeks ago (a fourth episode arrived only last week) and ALL the music for this first batch of four episodes has to be completely finished by next Tuesday (because obviously, the post-production needs some time as well to do the sound design and the final mixes ...). And September, October and November are going to be exactly the same: each month doing the the music for four 50-minute episodes in the space of just a few weeks.
> 
> Anyway, just to say that Heavyocity's Evolve is seeing some seriously heavy usage here these days. (And boy, am I happy that I upgraded my old G5 to one of these new Nehalems just before the project started.)
> ...



THATS INSANITY.


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## ComposerDude (Aug 13, 2009)

. . .


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## choc0thrax (Aug 13, 2009)

Just hire your 15 year old cousin Ricky to ghostwrite. Pay him in 80's porn mags. That's what I'd do.


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## TheoKrueger (Aug 13, 2009)

God bless copy paste by the way!


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## RiffWraith (Aug 13, 2009)

*I normally write two minutes a day, is my normal goal...*

-James Newton Howard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLuvfr8- ... re=related - 3:20

And here we are trying to figure out how to do double, and 2.5 times that....


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## Ashermusic (Aug 13, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Thu Aug 13 said:


> *I normally write two minutes a day, is my normal goal...*
> 
> -James Newton Howard
> 
> ...



In LA. TV composers who have to crank that much out generally have some helpers.


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## germancomponist (Aug 13, 2009)

And it depends on the music. 

Writing for full orchestra is a completely other thing than more using loops and big bang bungs.... .


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## RiffWraith (Aug 13, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Fri Aug 14 said:


> RiffWraith @ Thu Aug 13 said:
> 
> 
> > *I normally write two minutes a day, is my normal goal...*
> ...



In LA, film composers who have to crank that much out generally have alot more helpers than TV composers who have to crank that much out.


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## TheoKrueger (Aug 13, 2009)

Another thing i find fast for writing is laying out a whole track on one instrument (like piano) and then dividing the various voices to other instruments + doublings etc. Its so easy with Sonar since the notes you have selected in a clip are visible in the master view. 
I usually start writing with strings though because they can sound good on their own.
If you don't write very dense music i think you can break the 5 minute "barrier", but it might turn out a bit el cheapo


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 14, 2009)

I can't imagine Webern writing 4-5 min a day, for him it's more like 5 -10 sec a day. :D


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## midphase (Aug 14, 2009)

For what it's worth...some of the best scores I've composed (not only according to me) are the ones for which I was given plenty of time to complete.

I think it's not only important to pace oneself and really push the envelope of the creative stage, but it's also useful to take a break and later revisit your work to see if anything sticks out and should be changed.

When rushing to compose fast, all of those things go out the window. Subtlety and invention are replaced by safe paths and formulas.

When I have been approached to work on projects with ridiculous deadlines, I have always passed on the project because I know that only crap can come out of it!

I also have pushed back and questioned unreasonable deadlines to producers and directors, my argument is always the same--you give me more time, and I will give you a better score and better beng for your buck!

I find that (except for TV and big budget movies driven by marketing requirements), most deadlines in the indie film world are self-imposed and have no real logic other than someone decided that they need to be done by a certain date. Even festival deadlines have extensions and a work-in-progress version can be submitted (with a final version re-submitted once it's ready).

Ultimately, there's nothing more frustrating than working your ass off to meet a ridiculous deadline (and have the quality of the music suffer) just to find out that the DVD isn't getting released for another 8 months and there was absolutely no reason in the world for all the rushing!


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## kid-surf (Aug 15, 2009)

100% agree, Kays...


It's like, if there's an "actual" deadline, ok, but if it's just because folks are ADD? It's silly...

When I direct something I'm going to be emphatic that the composer be allowed reasonable time to score the friggn thing. Unless it's TV.  Then again, show creators don't direct in tv so... (BTW -- can I just say that creating a TV show is fucking brutal - getting a simple pilot "right" is WAY harder than writing the biggest film, at least for me. For many reasons)

Deadlines on the front end are so much looser. To the point where a screenwriter may be a month late and nobody says much. I get that there's no release date at that point...but still...obviously, there is no science to creation, it is SUPPOSED to happen organically. The fact that someone can "pull off" music in a ridiculous time frame shouldn't be some badge of achievement, after all, what audience aims to watch said film as FAST as possible. One's work is etched into stone at that point, and at that point nobody cares haw fast it was created, only if it's GOOD! Scratch that...GREAT!!!

These indie folks often set their bar WAY too low, IMHO. It's supposed to be about doing your BEST work, not simply cranking out garbage merely to claim to be a filmmaker. These indie deadlines and the material so many of them are satisfied with is the reason I had to split...but I digress.

*I do realize there are some great indie films...it's just that they're as rare as a great studio film.


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## midphase (Aug 15, 2009)

"The fact that someone can "pull off" music in a ridiculous time frame shouldn't be some badge of achievement,"


Yuppers, I always wondered why people brag about writing ridiculous amount of music per day but never say anything about the quality.

I also have never understood why pulling all-nighters is considered a badge of honor either.


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## caseyjames (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm composing 23 episodes of music for a network. I have a good deal of creative reign.

The noise swirling around my head at the moment can be separated into:

Thank god for the recent availability of cheap ram. I got my template loaded up with 17gigs of Kontakt and some other stuff here and there. It was taking about 25 min to load up the sequencer though. Last night I just copied my sample libraries from a firewire drive to a two drive 15k SAS Raid 0 so hopefully that will reduce the startup/restart time.

Audio is the biggest hurdle to me. I have guitars, banjos, ukuleles, pedal steels, dobros.... I know the only realistic option is their anemic MIDI brethren. I'm hoping that I'll start memorizing the chord spacings of the different instruments.


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## billval3 (Aug 15, 2009)

midphase @ Sat Aug 15 said:


> "The fact that someone can "pull off" music in a ridiculous time frame shouldn't be some badge of achievement,"
> 
> 
> Yuppers, I always wondered why people brag about writing ridiculous amount of music per day but never say anything about the quality.
> ...



I'm glad you said that. I'm not opposed to doing it if I have to, I just don't think I should have to plan on it.


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## synthetic (Aug 16, 2009)

Are you at least getting great pay for this? "Can you deliver the first four episodes by next week?" "If I can do that, is there something I can get in return?"


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## midphase (Aug 16, 2009)

@Synthetic--that actually makes sense to ask for a premium for fast turnaround just like Overnight FexEx is more expensive than Ground!


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## kid-surf (Aug 16, 2009)

I hear you Kays. The most I did was 72 hours writing straight through, falling asleep with my hands on the keyboard - and on a POS project. I was useless, the film was useless. What's the point in killing yourself over that?

Premium -- yeah, it's like in the studio world if you're a screenwriter and they need work done asap. They have to pay for that. Those guys get $75,000-$300,000 for "weeklies" on quick turnaround. I probably wouldn't need sleep if I were getting $10,000-$35,000 for the DAY.

Then again, the problem is likely that those screenwriters have tremendous leverage "Well...why the fuck would I do that for free? I've proven my films have made hundreds of millions, go 'head and try to find someone better...my price is my price!". I think the trick, for the composer, is finding some sort of leverage.

Did the slaves in Egypt brag about being worked like dogs with no sleep and little food, maybe they did? Maybe they thought (amongst themselves) that it was "cool...!!!". Would be great of composers could get past that...it only makes for a crap working environment. At least one should be paid for it.


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## synthetic (Aug 16, 2009)

midphase @ Sun Aug 16 said:


> @Synthetic--that actually makes sense to ask for a premium for fast turnaround just like Overnight FexEx is more expensive than Ground!



I bought a magazine called "Success" in the airport because David Foster was on the cover. There was a good article about negotiation that mentioned always asking for something in return, my line was almost directly taken from that article. I should start a new thread about it.


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## Rob Elliott (Aug 17, 2009)

This is a basic idea but worth mentioning to being more productive in scoring (in addition to all the great ideas above). 

I write EVERY day - whether I am paid or not. When I am 'out of work' - I blizt and write as many themes in a variety of emotional feels (on pno). I simply categorize them by number and ('feel') and file them away. You would be surprised how many themes you can come up with (I have hundreds).

For me scoring is different than 'theme writing'. The latter taking a lot longer to achieve. 

When I write these 'sketches' - I don't be-labor it. If it just does not work - I dump it. Really - nothing is or should be considered sacred because it came from my brain cell. :oops: 

I can't remember who said it (maybe JW or JNH) - paraphrased - "I write 1000s of themes to get all the bad ones out of the way." Good advice for a multitude of reasons.


Rob


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## billval3 (Aug 17, 2009)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Aug 17 said:


> This is a basic idea but worth mentioning to being more productive in scoring (in addition to all the great ideas above).
> 
> I write EVERY day - whether I am paid or not. When I am 'out of work' - I blizt and write as many themes in a variety of emotional feels (on pno). I simply categorize them by number and ('feel') and file them away. You would be surprised how many themes you can come up with (I have hundreds).
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, Rob. Great advice!

So have you used a lot of those ideas then? I could picture myself wanting to be a purist and come up with a new theme based on picture, even if I had a bunch in storage waiting to be used. Probably a dumb attitude, I know.


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## Rob Elliott (Aug 17, 2009)

billval3 @ Mon Aug 17 said:


> Rob Elliott @ Mon Aug 17 said:
> 
> 
> > This is a basic idea but worth mentioning to being more productive in scoring (in addition to all the great ideas above).
> ...




I am always surprised at how times a previously written theme (if you have ample supply from which to draw) will work - albeit with adjustments to picture.

For me - it is about the theme -- and does it 'emotionally' charge me to want to hear it - often. A key IMHO for scoring. Ever notice that really strong themes in films can reprise a couple dozen times (with variations). The weak themes - I want to gouge my eyes after hearing them twice.

Of course we must match the right theme with the pics at hand - but given that and hundreds of themes to choose from - you WILL have one or one that is partly there. And ultimately - you will score faster - not plunking away at a world of possibilities.


Hope this helps.


(a hidden benefit with this constant writing is that I think writing 'themes' can be 'practiced'. Plus - try writing 20 unique themes over a 2-3 day period and about 10 into it you will find a pattern - from which - hopefully you break from and 'dig deeper'. There are just no downside to this - IMHO.)


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## billval3 (Aug 17, 2009)

Even more good advice! Thanks, Rob.


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## Stevie (Sep 7, 2009)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Aug 17 said:


> This is a basic idea but worth mentioning to being more productive in scoring (in addition to all the great ideas above).
> 
> I write EVERY day - whether I am paid or not. When I am 'out of work' - I blizt and write as many themes in a variety of emotional feels (on pno). I simply categorize them by number and ('feel') and file them away. You would be surprised how many themes you can come up with (I have hundreds).
> 
> ...



Woah, Rob, excellent workflow! Why didn't I think of that...


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 7, 2009)

No problem Stevie. Taking my own advice today. Last project is done slightly ahead of schedule and waiting on 'lock' for the next one. Not walking away from it today UNTIL have a solid theme. 


My last 'firedrill' of a project used parts of three themes to crank out 8.5 mins in 2.5 days. I could have NEVER of done that (to the level I am pleased with) - had I started absolutely from scratch.

All the best,


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## billval3 (Sep 7, 2009)

I just finished a brief project using a theme I had written months ago, but never used. It went very quickly because of this and I don't know how long it would have taken me to experiment with themes if I didn't already have one.

I've decided to take free time I have at my day job (I'm a music teacher at present) to write extra themes...it really is a great idea!


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## Stevie (Sep 7, 2009)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Sep 07 said:


> No problem Stevie. Taking my own advice today. Last project is done slightly ahead of schedule and waiting on 'lock' for the next one. Not walking away from it today UNTIL have a solid theme.
> 
> 
> My last 'firedrill' of a project used parts of three themes to crank out 8.5 mins in 2.5 days. I could have NEVER of done that (to the level I am pleased with) - had I started absolutely from scratch.
> ...



Yeah, I hear ya! I have a hard time to start with a white paper and then get a lot of minutes done. When I finish my current projects I'll definitely work on theme developing


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