# KH thread taken down yet again



## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2014)

I have no problem with that thread being taken down as it was obviously beyond ridiculous. My only question is-was it taken down by request of KH, or was it a mod decision? (I will not engage further regardless of the answer). Thanks.


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## bbunker (Jan 24, 2014)

Hey, NYC...this is beyond my pay grade, but I'm pretty sure that it's just been moved to Member's Only to avoid any of the side-effects that come from having a...shall we say "well discussed topic?"

Try logging in and see if that pops it up.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2014)

bbunker @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> Hey, NYC...this is beyond my pay grade, but I'm pretty sure that it's just been moved to Member's Only to avoid any of the side-effects that come from having a...shall we say "well discussed topic?"
> 
> Try logging in and see if that pops it up.



Thanks, BB-I shall.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 24, 2014)

looking before leaping comes to mind Larry,
I hadn't logged in either first thing this morning but.......................


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## kb123 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ah, I see there is now a new Members Only forum, which probably should be called the KH forum, as it only seems to contain threads about KH


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 24, 2014)

kb123 @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> Ah, I see there is now a new Members Only forum, which probably should be called the KH forum, as it only seems to contain threads about KH



At no extra cost for KH I suppose. :lol: 

:wink:


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 24, 2014)

The thread was moved there by the mods by KH's and my request. When Frederick gets back in town I expect it will be deleted. I believe, but am not certain, that Frederick makes decisions regarding thread deletion.

[Edit: Apparently, according to Nick who quoted my above comment, I've gotten something wrong in my above statement. Perhaps, Frederick is the one who moved the thread, but I took it from his communications at the time he had his mods do it. However, while I don't specifically know who technically carried out moving the thread, I do know factually that Kirk and I made numerous requests to moderators then escalating matters to Frederick who responded to me with, "We will respond and take action as soon as possible per your request" and the two KHS threads were moved and deleted. So, I hope this clarifies things.]


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> looking before leaping comes to mind Larry,
> I hadn't logged in either first thing this morning but.......................



I'm more of a leaper than a looker , Ray, if you'd care to look at my latest (and last, depending on response) screed. :wink: 

You're kind of a funny package yourownself. I get the impression you don't mind a good dustup at all. Clears the sinuses, eh?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2014)

eDrummist @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> The thread was moved there by the mods by KH's request. When Frederick gets back in town I expect it will be deleted. It is my understanding that Frederick makes decisions regarding thread deletion.



As you seem to be more about your gig than defending my forum, Peter, I'd have to say our goals are diametrically opposed.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 24, 2014)

That thread was a commercial announcement thread representing KHS, I represented what I believed to be right in attempting to have it deleted. It was actually attorney reviewed prior to my comments. But I don't think Kirk's going to post another thread here. And again, I mostly give advice to two devs whose libraries use and it's primarily free advice. I even shared my resume and bio with a few people here to show that this isn't my living. But Why are devs seen as the bad guys? I'm largely just a KHS user who helps him a little once in a while because I like his libraries. He's paid me on a few things, so I disclose it to be transparent.. Ive always had an appreciation for small devs. Anyhow think what you like, but I am now only here as me and will try to avoid mentioning KHS libraries as I have mostly done prior to December.


EDIT: Ftr, if I witnessed the same things happened to you or someone else as occurred to Kirk I would certainly speak up and seek to see it stopped. I persuaded Kirk to come to this forum, so of course, I wanted to work quickly to see things turn out as best they could under the circumstances. And before anyone asks, the only requests I made, and I believe that Kirk made, were related to having two threads deleted, not to have anyone banned.


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## Arbee (Jan 24, 2014)

Warning, warning....

http://www.writingforward.com/writing-tips/improve-your-writing-by-eliminating-redundancies

.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 24, 2014)

Anyhow, I wanted to answer your question regarding the thread. Take care.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2014)

eDrummist @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> That thread was a commercial announcement thread representing KHS, I represented what I believed to be right in attempting to have it deleted. It was actually attorney reviewed prior to my comments. But I don't think Kirk's going to post another thread here. And again, I mostly give advice to two devs whose libraries use and it's primarily free advice. I even shared my resume and bio with a few people here to show that this isn't my living. But Why are devs seen as the bad guys? I'm largely just a KHS user who helps him a little once in a while because I like his libraries. He's paid me on a few things, so I disclose it to be transparent.. Ive always had an appreciation for small devs. Anyhow think what you like, but I am now only here as me and will try to avoid mentioning KHS libraries as I have mostly done prior to December.



Fair enough.


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## midi_controller (Jan 24, 2014)

Wait, really? What happened? Last time I looked at it, it seemed like everyone was throwing a fit because _one_ person said they didn't like Kirk's libraries (although in not a very nice way). Now there is talk of stricter moderation (please no) and entire threads are possibly getting deleted? What the hell is going on?

:shock:


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## paulmatthew (Jan 24, 2014)

Kind of sad it resorted to that. There were some of us interested in the new Spotlight Strings libraries , Group Buy , or just general information about Kirk Hunter Libraries. It quickly became apparent that we could not get good , direct information about the developer and libraries without having to swim through a sea of pissing contests. 

I know a few of us jumped shipped when it got ugly , in two different threads , no less!! I feel bad for Kirk Hunter for the rotten welcome back to this forum he has received so far. Kirk , if you read this , we're not all here to rain on your parade. I hope you stick around a while.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2014)

Those of you who thought I was posting so strongly simply to enter a pissing contest were missing my essential point, which was- there are always going to be the ones who feel their value is beyond the purview of any sort of civil discourse. I do not believe that, nor do I believe in too much oversight. Instead ,I believe the society someimes needs to defend itself. Trying to ignore those who will not be ignored is difficult. Speaking up against awful behavior, and speaking strongly, is sometimes necessary. I'm civil 99% of the time- but not when I think there's a lot at stake.


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## paulmatthew (Jan 24, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> Those of you who thought I was posting so strongly simply to enter a pissing contest were missing my essential point, which was- there are always going to be the ones who feel their value is beyond the purview of any sort of civil discourse. I do not believe that, nor do I believe in too much oversight. Instead ,I believe the society someimes needs to defend itself. Trying to ignore those who will not be ignored is difficult. Speaking up against awful behavior, and speaking strongly, is sometimes necessary. I'm civil 99% of the time- but not when I think there's a lot at stake.



For the record , I was not referring to you NYC Composer. I was just making a generalization of how the two other threads went downhill so fast. Hopefully this one won't walk the same path.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 24, 2014)

To clarify, the deletion request was primarily due to malicious and libelous statements made by two individuals in the most recent thread. It was NOT due to product criticisms (note that the KHS related Samples forum thread, which certainly contains a number of critical posts, was not part of the deletion request). Only threads actually created by KH himself were deleted. Of course, threads are routinely deleted by the request of those who create them in various online forums. 

On the larger issue of KHS presence at the forum, it became clear in multiple threads (and from around a decade of the same thing happening in threads where members mention KHS), that there has been a concerted effort by certain parties to encumber communications by or related to KHS. Even the simplest KH post was regularly being met with malicious posts and personal/professional insults and reputation attacks. It's simply not possible to have clear communications in such an environment.


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## nikolas (Jan 24, 2014)

eDrummist: I think you've made yourself very very clear...


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## synergy543 (Jan 25, 2014)

eDrummist @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> To further clarify on my earlier posts regarding the deletion request, it was primarily due to malicious and libelous statements made by two individuals in the most recent thread. It was NOT due to product criticisms (note that the KHS related Samples forum thread, which certainly contains a number of critical posts, was not part of the deletion request). Only threads actually created by KH himself were deleted. Of course, threads are routinely deleted by the request of those who create them in various online forums.
> 
> On the larger issue of KHS presence at the forum, it became clear in multiple threads (and from around a decade of the same thing happening in threads where members mention KHS), that there has been a concerted effort by certain parties to encumber communications by or related to KHS. Even the simplest KH post was regularly being met with malicious posts and personal/professional insults and reputation attacks. It's simply not possible to have clear communications in such an environment.



eDrummist, do you ever consider that you, yourself, are the one dredging up the negative comments over and over? That the one doing the most damage might be you? If you didn't respond each time, the discusssion would move forward and back on topic. Your re-peated dredging up the sludge and commenting on it only incites further reposts and on and on ad naseum. It does get tiring.

It feels like you sir, are stalking the forum with your negative marketing campaign adenda. After 20 years experience, didn't you learn that benefits of focusing on the positive? Give us a decent demo for example?


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 25, 2014)

I agree that there is no point anymore to emphasize a position that was communicated already multiple times.

However for me personally, a big questionmark remains:

A developer has paid for an advertisement service on VIC, I do not know this for certain but I suppose that is correct, and then opened a thread on lowering prices for all of his products.

Now, regardless how and why this developed in such destructive ways, and I certainly will not engage in any further discussion on the reasons for that anymore, the fact remains that Frederick was forced to kill the entire commercial thread.

Sad... really! 
<shrugs> Here is to hoping that this remains an isolated event. Cheers! o-[][]-o


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 25, 2014)

synergy543 @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> ...It feels like you sir, are stalking the forum with your negative marketing campaign adenda."



synergy543 I was answering a question that was asked by three different people. As one of the two people involved in making the request to have the thread deleted that these posters asked about, I felt that I was well qualified to answer their question of what occurred and not leave things open to speculation. 

But by making a highly inflammatory post filled with negativity and insults do you think you're making a case for focusing on the positive? Anyhow, no answer necessary. I truly don't want to negatively engage with you or anyone. Have a good day and best wishes with your musical endeavors.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 25, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> rayinstirling @ Fri Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > looking before leaping comes to mind Larry,
> ...



Larry,
I'll PM you with my reply because I truly have no wish to fan the flames here or anywhere else. The "righteous" know who they are and what they do.
Ray


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## NYC Composer (Jan 25, 2014)

paulmatthew @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Those of you who thought I was posting so strongly simply to enter a pissing contest were missing my essential point, which was- there are always going to be the ones who feel their value is beyond the purview of any sort of civil discourse. I do not believe that, nor do I believe in too much oversight. Instead ,I believe the society someimes needs to defend itself. Trying to ignore those who will not be ignored is difficult. Speaking up against awful behavior, and speaking strongly, is sometimes necessary. I'm civil 99% of the time- but not when I think there's a lot at stake.
> ...



'K Paul. Call me Larry, please.


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## nikolas (Jan 25, 2014)

eDrummist @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> synergy543 I was answering a question that was ask as one of two people most qualified to answer about why the threads were taken down. I did my absolute best to answer the question, largely because I would prefer people know what really occurred as oppose to speculate.
> 
> But by making a highly inflammatory post filled with negativity and insults do you think you're making a case for focusing on the positive? Anyhow, no answer necessary. I truly don't want to negatively engage with you or anyone. Have a good day and best wishes with your musical endeavors.


After all of this, I don't think it's necessary to keep replying to every individual, every single time. 

Let it rest. I truly believe that it's very clear now, as I said earlier, in a very civil, kind and non inflammatory way.

And please, don't answer to me.  There's no reason to do so.


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## Astronaut FX (Jan 25, 2014)

eDrummist @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> synergy543 I was answering a question that was ask as one of two people most qualified to answer about why the threads were taken down. I did my absolute best to answer the question, largely because I would prefer people know what really occurred as oppose to speculate.
> 
> But by making a highly inflammatory post filled with negativity and insults do you think you're making a case for focusing on the positive? Anyhow, no answer necessary. I truly don't want to negatively engage with you or anyone. Have a good day and best wishes with your musical endeavors.



synergy543's post was neither highly inflammatory, nor was it filled with negativity. He's simply asking you to consider the fact that you may not have helped the situation, and possibly made it worse.

Consider a parallel situation. Around 1990, an art exhibit of Mapplethorpe's work made a stop at an art museum in Cincinnati, Ohio, near where I live. The conservative right that makes up the vast majority of the region spared no breath in literally attempting to shout it out of the region. They even went so far as to have the Contemporary Arts Center's director brought up on obscenity charges (resulted in acquittal).

What those who opposed the exhibit failed to grasp was, that the end result of their shouts of "obscenity" and their demand that everyone accept their definition of what was and was not in good taste, was that they simply managed to garner the exhibit far more attention and "advertising" than would have occurred had they quietly allowed it to pass. As it turned out, the exhibit set record attendance during its stop in Cincinnati, eclipsing attendance numbers for the exhibit that were seen in cities five times its size.

Sometimes, if we don't like something, incessant ranting about it often results in quite the opposite effect than what we intend. More than one VI Control member would do well to consider this.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 25, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys, your continued commitment against censorship and dedication to free speech, including a VI Control moderator repeatedly making posts urging me not to post following my reply to 3 people asking why a thread which KH and I requested for deletion was deleted, is nothing short of inspiring. 

Now I seriously urge those expressing theories about what would occur if I did not post in the deleted second KHS thread consider that I intentionally avoided posting for most of the day on the second page of the thread and the poster in question actually increased the frequency of the personal and reputation attack posts and made additional hostile and insult filled posts directed at another poster too. Those who've put forward the theory that my responding to the attacking poster to just stay focused on product criticisms was the cause of the problems in the thread can test their theory by creating a new and _positive _KHS related thread [EDIT: of course, this assumes the same lack of promised moderation and same posters in question post in the new thread as the last deleted thread]. I won't post in it, I'll just watch from the sidelines (just like I did on page 2 of the past thread when it actually begin to get worse). I'll meet you back here in three days to discuss the outcome and promise to shower praise upon anyone's skills and judgement who can successfully prove their theory.

P.S. @nikolas, I respect your new found diligence. Is it wrong of me to wish it was discovered, perhaps, in a certain past few threads at appropriate points -- the moderation that was promised to KHS prior to paying money to post here that I was pleading for during that thread (just to have the mods speak to the persons in question not to make personal/professional attacks or publish malicious, non-factual stories -- and that this kind of moderator attention was applied in a more serious, discerning, beneficial, meaningful and even-handed manner across this forum? Food for thought.

P.P.S. @tone deaf Kudos for the creative use of irony in your rant against rants. To your point, someone insulting your professional background and making remarks like "It feels like you sir, are stalking the forum with your negative marketing campaign adenda (sic? or clever insult)" certainly couldn't be construed as inflammatory speech or insulting by any fair minded person, right? I'm sure he meant all of those remarks in a good way in making his argument for more positive posts. Silly me! 

Anyhow, it's a new day. That's all folks. Take care and try to be nice to each other.

[Edited post for greater clarity. No important details were modified.]


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## lee (Jan 25, 2014)

Third time's the charm


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## nikolas (Jan 25, 2014)

Whatever... I give up!

Just a small note that there's absolutely no connection between what I said (to relax pretty much, and that no one is forcing you to answer every single post) and any kind of censorship or free speech that you're implying.


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## Diffusor (Jan 25, 2014)

It's really unbelievable the bullying that is going on. I was at a party last night and these two dudes started insulting me and I protested, and eventually they both starting kicking my ass. I tried fighting back but the host of the party and other guests kept yelling at me to stop fighting back and provoking them and they will stop and we could all continue on with the party.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 25, 2014)

Diffusor @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> It's really unbelievable the bullying that is going on. I was at a party last night and these two dudes started insulting me and I protested, and eventually they both starting kicking my ass. I tried fighting back but the host of the party and other guests kept yelling at me to stop fighting back and provoking them and they will stop and we could all continue on with the party.



Nice anecdote. My innuendo detector show some signal. But if you want to _suggest _something here, I can tell you that you are wrong.


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## Diffusor (Jan 25, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> Diffusor @ Sat Jan 25 said:
> 
> 
> > It's really unbelievable the bullying that is going on. I was at a party last night and these two dudes started insulting me and I protested, and eventually they both starting kicking my ass. I tried fighting back but the host of the party and other guests kept yelling at me to stop fighting back and provoking them and they will stop and we could all continue on with the party.
> ...



Thanks for proving my point. Carry on. o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2014)

> The thread was moved there by the mods by KH's and my request



Much as I'd truly love to let this totally unpleasant episode die, I think it's important to establish that that was absolutely not how it went down.

The bigger picture is the mission of this forum: musicians helping musicians.

Heated discussion can often be in that category, even in the off-topic area. Stupid crap is something else, and that thread was the pits.

I'd like to suggest, very diplomatically, that everyone just shut up now and get back to samples and stuff.


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## AC986 (Jan 25, 2014)

Diffusor @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> I was at a party last night and these two dudes started insulting me and I protested, and eventually they both starting kicking my ass.



That happened to me at a party too. That's women for you though. They can be surprisingly violent when they've had a few drinks.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 25, 2014)

Diffusor @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> ProtectedRights @ Sat Jan 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Diffusor @ Sat Jan 25 said:
> ...



Any time! For you!


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## chimuelo (Jan 25, 2014)

If musicians wish to denegrade other musicians, please do so so in a musical way. 
Give hip hop a shot since it takes 30 seceonds to write out a chart, then add the audio where you use your imagination and rhyme your way into the hearts and minds of other faceless cackling Hens.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 25, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> > The thread was moved there by the mods by KH's and my request
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've always enjoyed your delicate approach to diplomacy- puts one in mind of a full armored war elephant dancing nimbly through a field of newly born bunnies....


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## nikolas (Jan 25, 2014)

Well, I think it's important to keep in mind on how lucky you guys are that Fred's the owner and the admin of this place! -


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## NYC Composer (Jan 25, 2014)

I do indeed think that.I'm hoping Fred will stay Fred.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 26, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jan 25 said:


> .... a full armored war elephant dancing nimbly through a field of newly born bunnies....



Man! Now I have that picture on my mind all day.... :lol:


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## nikolas (Jan 26, 2014)

Imagine the elephant naked! :D

job done! :D


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 26, 2014)

nikolas @ Sun Jan 26 said:


> Imagine the elephant naked! :D
> 
> job done! :D



...and in the middle of the fields with bunnies running zic zac for their lives, Larry sitting naked on top of the prancing and enormous example of an elephant, with a facial expression of total insanity, his entire body tatooed with absurd pictures of bunnies, he is juggling with 7 burning hamsters.... :lol: 

:wink:


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 26, 2014)

... the sound of burning hamsters put nothing but pure terror into the little bunnies hearts who ran to the point of total exhaustion, when suddenly the whole scene was flanked from the left by a cloud of dust coming closer. <camera zooming into dust cloud> Only short before they reached Larry and the war elephant he realised that this is his end.

Around 4,000 leopardrabbits took a swift strike and burried their raizor sharp teeth deep into the elephants flesh and it seemed all in slow motion when he hit the ground, burried in an endless wave of leopardrabbits....

:lol:


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## NYC Composer (Jan 26, 2014)

Ummm. I must remember to be more careful with colorful metaphors....


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 26, 2014)

Finally everybody is in a good mood again


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