# M-Audio Axiom 61 or Nektar Impact LX61+



## MustangMartigan (Jul 27, 2021)

Both these seem to have the same features, and are the same price used.

Can anyone that's tried both offer an opinion on which one to get?

I'll be using it to control my DAW, play VI Instruments and VI Drums.

Thanks.


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## dcoscina (Jul 27, 2021)

MustangMartigan said:


> Both these seem to have the same features, and are the same price used.
> 
> Can anyone that's tried both offer an opinion on which one to get?
> 
> ...


they both suck. IMO. Crap key construction, inconsistent velocity, poor QC and just below average built quality. And I work in keyboard sales so sadly I know these models quite well.


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## dcoscina (Jul 27, 2021)

MustangMartigan said:


> Both these seem to have the same features, and are the same price used.
> 
> Can anyone that's tried both offer an opinion on which one to get?
> 
> ...


On a more positive note, check out the Novation Launchkey 49 or 61. their key action isn't bad. Or the Alesis VI49 or 61. Semi weighted (ish). Decent quality. Quite keybed. 

If budget is your game, Keystation 61 mk3 is not bad. no drum pads though.


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## Elrik Settee (Jul 27, 2021)

Nektar doesn't have Ableton integration


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## MustangMartigan (Jul 27, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> they both suck. IMO. Crap key construction, inconsistent velocity, poor QC and just below average built quality. And I work in keyboard sales so sadly I know these models quite well.


So is there anything that lacks all the suck in this price range? I guess that key response is most important to me


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## Daren Audio (Jul 27, 2021)

For budget-friendly, entry-level MIDI keyboards in this price range of $200 or less the above mentioned will do fine. Nektar has a bit more clicky-clacky keybed noise but both are not quiet to say the least. This is expected for the price range for plastic keys. Each brand will have software bundle, software integration and/or pre-mapped for certain DAWs so that should be a factor to consider. Piano players prefer more resistance such as semi-weighted or hammer-action piano keybed but at an additional price-point. If you're starting out and want to keep the budget down, I'd recommend getting a used/pre-owned/open-box keyboard on Amazon which has a good return policy in case you want to return it for something else.

Below are few comparison reviews on YouTube:








More DAW intetegration:


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## Alexandre (Jul 27, 2021)

Hope not to divert this thread but but any recommendation for a good midi keyboard with cubase?
Thanks!


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## sostenuto (Jul 27, 2021)

Axiom Pro 61, since new near Intro date. Fabulous, reliable, daily use, no issues ever ! 
Hate to see such severe criticism posted earlier. Retired Hewlett Packard guy and don't take such comments lightly.
Looked inside iMac once and had to pass on lunch .... 🤢


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

MustangMartigan said:


> Both these seem to have the same features, and are the same price used.
> 
> Can anyone that's tried both offer an opinion on which one to get?


Yes but that's all they are: opinions. For every person who swears one is great, someone else will say it sucks and someone else will say it's so-so. If you're able, strongly advise trying to find a store near you that might have some on display to try and get a feel for the action.


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Or the Alesis VI49 or 61. Semi weighted (ish). Decent quality.


For example  Almost everything I've heard from people is that Alesis is not decent at all (I can't say).


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## sostenuto (Jul 27, 2021)

Not opinion .... many years of daily experience !! Sure, others may have different experience. 
Do not place any value on opinions.


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> On a more positive note, check out the Novation Launchkey 49 or 61. their key action isn't bad.


I was getting fired up about this until I found out it doesn't have a full set of transport controls (no FF or RW) and that's very important to me. What a strange omission.


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Not opinion .... many years of daily experience !! Sure, others may have different experience.
> Do not place any value on opinions.


Right, but still just your opinion. Not knocking or disagreeing with yours per se, btw, just that IMO nobody should base a decision on any given opinion. Now if a whole slew of people were saying the same thing about a unit, I'd put more weight on it, but even then would want to find out for myself if possible.


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## sostenuto (Jul 27, 2021)

We agree to disagree on meaning of 'opinion' . Years of experience is NOT opinion, it is fact. 
Isolated, single experience, yet fact. ymmv


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

The meaning of opinion is easy enough to resolve:



> opin·ion
> Definition of _opinion_​a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter



Which is what you expressed. Not fact. It is a fact that you stated your opinion.  Again note I'm not saying your opinion was pulled out of thin air or has nothing to back it; in fact (sorry) on the contrary, it sounds like you have a lot of justification for it. But opinion nonetheless. All of your criticisms are judgments. What you consider "crap construction" others might not, that's all...


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## sostenuto (Jul 27, 2021)

🤷🏻‍♂️ so large number of posts here on VI-C Forums are simply opinions. OK. 
I choose to value 'opinions' of those who use products personally and have chops to post their experiences, impressions. 
Is your point then that these are not to be valued ? No argument here. Your 'opinion'.


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## Alexandre (Jul 27, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Axiom Pro 61, since new near Intro date. Fabulous, reliable, daily use, no issues ever !
> Hate to see such severe criticism posted earlier. Retired Hewlett Packard guy and don't take such comments lightly.
> Looked inside iMac once and had to pass on lunch .... 🤢


I agree about the criticism ( even if I'm more than happy that people do as it is the base for richer conversations/content) as I own nektar impact LX88+ and I like it. But having tuning issues lately with my vst's in cubase 11 so not sure where it's coming from! And had a novation launchkey that had a broken key after 1 month of use! So yes it's all based on personal experiences...and by the way I agree with BOTH comments above!!Ahaha!!


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## bill5 (Jul 27, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> 🤷🏻‍♂️ so large number of posts here on VI-C Forums are simply opinions. OK.


I would hope that's obvious. Almost all of them, in fact. 



> I choose to value 'opinions' of those who use products personally and have chops to post their experiences, impressions.


Me too.



> Is your point then that these are not to be valued ?


Obviously not. But you seem awfully anxious to get into a snit, so I see no point in replying to you any further.


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## MustangMartigan (Jul 27, 2021)

Ok guys. I was aware that I'd be getting opinions, when I asked for them...

And I'd like to hear anyone who has one about Midi Controllers, not opinions on opinions.


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## MustangMartigan (Jul 27, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Axiom Pro 61, since new near Intro date. Fabulous, reliable, daily use, no issues ever !
> Hate to see such severe criticism posted earlier. Retired Hewlett Packard guy and don't take such comments lightly.
> Looked inside iMac once and had to pass on lunch .... 🤢



The criticism was about the Axiom 61, not Pro.

I also just realized that the used one I'm looking at is just a Mk I. :(


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## MustangMartigan (Jul 27, 2021)

Daren Audio said:


> For budget-friendly, entry-level MIDI keyboards in this price range of $200 or less the above mentioned will do fine. Nektar has a bit more clicky-clacky keybed noise but both are not quiet to say the least. This is expected for the price range for plastic keys. Each brand will have software bundle, software integration and/or pre-mapped for certain DAWs so that should be a factor to consider. Piano players prefer more resistance such as semi-weighted or hammer-action piano keybed but at an additional price-point. If you're starting out and want to keep the budget down, I'd recommend getting a used/pre-owned/open-box keyboard on Amazon which has a good return policy in case you want to return it for something else





Daren Audio said:


> For budget-friendly, entry-level MIDI keyboards in this price range of $200 or less the above mentioned will do fine. Nektar has a bit more clicky-clacky keybed noise but both are not quiet to say the least. This is expected for the price range for plastic keys. Each brand will have software bundle, software integration and/or pre-mapped for certain DAWs so that should be a factor to consider. Piano players prefer more resistance such as semi-weighted or hammer-action piano keybed but at an additional price-point. If you're starting out and want to keep the budget down, I'd recommend getting a used/pre-owned/open-box keyboard on Amazon which has a good return policy in case you want to return it for something else.
> 
> Below are few comparison reviews on YouTube:
> 
> ...



I am looking at used.

Is there a way to search Amazon for Used, or do you have to go to each model and look to see if there are any Used?


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## MustangMartigan (Jul 27, 2021)

Ok guys, how about the Novation 61SL MKII?


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## Quasar (Jul 27, 2021)

I don't know about the Impact, but I got a Nektar Panorama T6 last year, and it made a horrible banging noise on the release of the white keys (the back keys were fine, go figure...), as it was just hard surface against hard surface where the keys come to rest after being struck.

I probably should have returned it, but instead I opened it up and put in very tiny 2mm strips of felt along each point of contact to dampen the sound. Now it works okay, but the keybed is shallower than is optimal, and I really miss my old Novation Impulse 61, which was perfect for me. I plan to get another at some point. Great lightweight, non-piano action on the Impulse 61 for bowed, plucked or strummed VIs.

EDIT: Don't know about Novation 61SL MKII, but used to have the 25 key version of the SL MKII, and it too had nice key action, though I like the Impulse better. I don't personally care about or use transport control and integration software and all of that. I just want a good keybed action that is both quiet and responsive.


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## Daren Audio (Jul 27, 2021)

MustangMartigan said:


> I am looking at used.
> 
> Is there a way to search Amazon for Used, or do you have to go to each model and look to see if there are any Used?


Yes, go to each model and see if there's any used ones available (not all will have any used available). Make sure it says "ships from" and "sold by" Amazon Warehouse (Other third-party sellers may not allow returns). I've bought a few used/open-box M-Audio gear this year. So far so good! Still have my M-Audio Axiom 25 from 2007 and it's still chugging along!


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## jason.d (Jul 27, 2021)

I bought an Axiom 61 key back in 2011 and unfortunately the electronics died 2 years later. Hopefully this was an isolated incident but after that experience I can’t really recommend getting that keyboard.

I did end up getting a Novation slmk2 to replace it and I gotta say that keybed was the biggest improvement.


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## MustangMartigan (Jul 28, 2021)

I just ordered a used Novation 61 SL MKII from Guitar Center for $180 (includes s&h).

Thanks for all the help.


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## el-bo (Jul 28, 2021)

I have the Nektar Impact LX61 (Don't believe it's a '+').

It's definitely not a quiet 'board. There is also a definite difference in the tension between the black and white keys (The black keys needing noticeably more pressure to play). I've had mine for years, so have become used to it.

At the time, it was one of a couple of options that were that cheap, and I took the gamble. Have definitely had my money's worth.

Were I looking to buy now, I'd probably take a look into the ICON stuff:






Home







iconproaudio.com


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## jason.d (Jul 28, 2021)

MustangMartigan said:


> I just ordered a used Novation 61 SL MKII from Guitar Center for $180 (includes s&h).
> 
> Thanks for all the help.


Nice! Hope you like it 🙂


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## brek (Jul 28, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I have the Nektar Impact LX61 (Don't believe it's a '+').
> 
> It's definitely not a quiet 'board. There is also a definite difference in the tension between the black and white keys (The black keys needing noticeably more pressure to play). I've had mine for years, so have become used to it.
> 
> ...



I recently took a gamble on an ICON board, and unfortunately can't recommend. Has the common issue of wild velocity differences between white and black keys (black ones take very little effort to trigger 127) and all the available velocity curves move too fast through the middle dynamic range. 

As a matter of opinion, the feel reminds me of the squishy springy feeling of M-Audios (and more fatiguing to play than my weighted keys). 

Overall, I'd put it on par with an LX+. The LX+ has better velocity curves, but also has issues with black keys. I slightly prefer the feel of the LX+.

I quite enjoy using the Launchkey and Roland A500 pro (aside from Roland's modwheel madness). My wish is for one of those in 88 keys.


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## Pier (Jul 28, 2021)

Honestly in this price range most products are going to be pretty mediocre.

Personally I would get the cheapest you can find second hand, just to start playing around. Use that for a couple of months while saving money, and then invest in a better controller. You'll have a much better idea of the features you want.

Another point is that if you want decent drum pads you'd be better off with a dedicated drum pad controller. Maybe you could buy a used Akai controller. The Launchpad X by novation has amazing pads for the price.


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## hoxclab (Jul 28, 2021)

I have had the Keylab 49 by Arturia and I sold it to downgrade to a M-Audio KeyStation 49. I'm a simple man.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> I have had the Keylab 49 by Arturia and I sold it to downgrade to a M-Audio KeyStation 49. I'm a simple man.


The keystation 49 mk2 was fine. The newer mk3 has a horrid key action. Whatever gains they made with the series 3 61 and 88, they took several steps backwards on the 49…


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## Jorf88 (Jul 30, 2021)

Quasar said:


> I don't know about the Impact, but I got a Nektar Panorama T6 last year, and it made a horrible banging noise on the release of the white keys (the back keys were fine, go figure...), as it was just hard surface against hard surface where the keys come to rest after being struck.
> 
> I probably should have returned it, but instead I opened it up and put in very tiny 2mm strips of felt along each point of contact to dampen the sound. Now it works okay, but the keybed is shallower than is optimal, and I really miss my old Novation Impulse 61, which was perfect for me. I plan to get another at some point. Great lightweight, non-piano action on the Impulse 61 for bowed, plucked or strummed VIs.
> 
> EDIT: Don't know about Novation 61SL MKII, but used to have the 25 key version of the SL MKII, and it too had nice key action, though I like the Impulse better. I don't personally care about or use transport control and integration software and all of that. I just want a good keybed action that is both quiet and responsive.


Even though the Panorama T6 wasn't specifically asked about here, I'll chime in to second what Quasar posted here.

The white keys on the T6 are loud on key-release, and sort of on key press, too. It's like the surface of the plastic on the upper side of the white keys (where it's buried inside of the housing) matches up flush against the bottom of the housing. That perfect contact means that it makes a sound if you move it, at all, and it clicks when it reaches maximum height. 

More about my experience with the T6:

I got myself a Panorama T6 about two months ago, hearing some folks say they liked its action. John Mike praised it pretty heavily in his review of it. Some people even said they preferred the T6 action to the more premium P6, just because the T6 had been more recently renewed.

I haven't been able to love it. I don't absolutely hate it, but I am displeased with it and I should have returned it when I still had the chance to do so.
The T6 action feels way too heavy, to me. It takes a stupid amount of force to get the keys to even begin to depress. I have really horrible problems with getting velocity 50-100 on anything because what I try to play as a mf dynamic comes out as pp. What I would try to play as pp doesn't even trigger sound.

There's a video on YT that compares the "heaviness" of the action of a Studiologic SL88 studio, and an SL88 Grand (so TP/100LR vs. TP/40WOOD keybeds). He doesn't have gram weights so he uses nickels. IIRC the 88 studio takes 21 nickels of weight to produce a sound across the entire keybed (it's not graded). The SL88 grand takes like 17 on the bottom end and ~14 at the top (it's graded). I basically did the same test. 

Here I was comparing to my Roland FP90 (which I adore... and I wish it would fit on my desk, but it doesn't). My FP90 was 16 nickels at the low end, 15 on middle C, and 14 at the high end. The panorama T6 is somewhere between 17-18 nickels all the way across on the white keys, but it takes *24* nickels on the black keys. Somehow, I find the black keys more comfortable to play on the T6. I think I have an idea of why.

I realized it's because of the effort it takes to even begin to move a key, and the fact that the FP90 triggers a note at the bottom of its action (like a hammer does). The sensors on the T6 are SUPER high up, like you barely have to move the key to get to the first sensor, which means the note triggers like mid-keypress. Essentially the entire bottom half of the key travel on the T6 is dead, and then you bottom out to the squish where the aftertouch is. This means that re-triggering notes takes a lot of key travel (that you've exerted a lot of force to get down to, if you're used to playing a real piano and needing to fully depress a key for proper technique). 

Lets look at that blurb with some numbers:
It takes 16 nickels on my middle c on the FP90 to produce an actual sound, and at this point the key is bottomed out. The white middle C key does its first section of depression (no sound is produced) after just 6 nickels. The beginning of the keypress to the first "set" is very light.

The T6 takes 13 nickels to even slightly depress (like <1mm of depression). That's the amount of force just to barely move the key, and nearly as much force as it takes to play an actual note. It then takes the 17-18 to produce sound... but it takes *32 nickels to bottom it out. *If you have any kind of proper piano training, you'll naturally try to bottom out keys when you play because that's how real actions work. You're exerting a huge amount of force to do it, and your dynamics are determined somewhere at the very beginning of that keypress, as opposed to a real grand action where your dynamics are determined right at the end of the keypress when you're actually swinging the hammer.

Combine this with the T6 only having two sensors, and you essentially have to return the key to its full upright position to retrigger it (repeated note or trill). The FP 90 is triple sensor, so like a real hammer action, you can keep the key partially depressed during a trill and the re-hit for multi-finger rapid triggering usually doesn't let the key return to the full upright position. It feels better, it's easier to play. The T6 is so cumbersome to me. Getting dynamics out of it (yes, I've tried all of the different velocity sensitivities that it has) is a chore.

Since I noted that the bottom half of the T6 keypress on white keys is essentially dead travel unless you're needing to get down to where the aftertouch starts... my playing gets better on it if I force myself to only think about the amount of force that I'm exerting and not about the amount of travel that the key undergoes. The result is half-ass decent playing, with my fingers only depressing the keys about half way. It feels really weird. I know $300 isn't expensive for a midi keyboard, but it's also not dirt cheap. At that price, I shouldn't have to use stupid technique just to get the keybed to produce somewhat familiar feelings.


Pardon my stupidly lengthy rant. I'm a scientist (which also bothers me, since I'm weighing things in nickels without first recording all of their individual masses, since I know they're not the same). 

I'm stuck with the T6 unless I decide to sell it second-hand and replace it with something else. I really wish my damn FP90 would fit on my desk so I could move (happily) along with this avenue of my music hobby. (Also, no, it can't go under my desk, I'm 6'6", there's no room between my legs and the bottom of my desk as it is).

I'll happily answer any questions anyone has about the T6. I won't tell you not to buy one. You do you. What I'll tell you is to please buy it from somewhere you can return it, or to see if you can find a place to try it out first (unlikely).



On the + side, the pads are pretty nice and the endless encoders are okay. The sliders are okay at best. They have a reasonably sized dead-zone at both the top and the bottom (like you reach 0 CC value before you actually bottom out, and there's some travel where it's already 0. Ditto with the top side at 127). It's not just one fader like that, every one of the 9 on mine do that. It sounds picky, but when you're already working with a very short fader, you can't afford to lose any of that potential range.


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## el-bo (Jul 30, 2021)

brek said:


> I recently took a gamble on an ICON board, and unfortunately can't recommend. Has the common issue of wild velocity differences between white and black keys (black ones take very little effort to trigger 127) and all the available velocity curves move too fast through the middle dynamic range.
> 
> As a matter of opinion, the feel reminds me of the squishy springy feeling of M-Audios (and more fatiguing to play than my weighted keys).
> 
> ...


Thanks!

Shame to hear about the ICON keyboards. I'd imagined that if I ever decided to upsize form my current 61 keys, to 88, that it'd be with one of the ICON options.


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## Pier (Aug 1, 2021)

Jorf88 said:


> Even though the Panorama T6 wasn't specifically asked about here, I'll chime in to second what Quasar posted here.
> 
> The white keys on the T6 are loud on key-release, and sort of on key press, too. It's like the surface of the plastic on the upper side of the white keys (where it's buried inside of the housing) matches up flush against the bottom of the housing. That perfect contact means that it makes a sound if you move it, at all, and it clicks when it reaches maximum height.
> 
> ...


No offense, but why anyone expect a cheap midi controller to have even decent keys?

Obviously the effort on the Nektar controllers has been put into the DAW integration and the knobs/faders/etc. These are definitely not products for people that care about keys.

I'm not saying it's either graded hammer keys or nothing. The Impulse series by Novation are pretty good actually for the price, although these are more expensive. The 49 keys cost the same as the T6 that has 61 keys.

I have a Nektar GX49 controller on a sliding tray under my desk. It's cheap, lightweight, and has minimal footprint. The keys are terrible but I don't care. If I want to do any serious playing I go to my Yamaha digital piano with hammer graded keys. Some day I will get a Doepfer or Fatar to put on the sliding tray, but since I'm not writing music professionally anymore I can't get myself to invest in that.


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## Jorf88 (Aug 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> No offense, but why anyone expect a cheap midi controller to have even decent keys?
> 
> Obviously the effort on the Nektar controllers has been put into the DAW integration and the knobs/faders/etc. These are definitely not products for people that care about keys.
> 
> ...


After a lot of research that I'd done, I had enough suggestions that the T6 had "serviceable" keys for not being hammer-weighted. Everything I'd read about the Novation keyboards and other Nektar product lines indicated that they were all very "clacky" and loose. The T6 keys aren't loose at all. With a brief surgery and some thin felted/foamed tape, I could even eliminate the clicking noises that the white keys make... but the whole void section in the bottom half of the action is something that there's no "fixing".

Re: other keyboards
I don't have anywhere within 1.5 hours of traveling that would let me get my fingers on anything other than NI controllers (which I've tried and decided that I don't care for), so I had to take a leap of faith. I then found out, despite being told that it was returnable, that it was actually not returnable because MIDI keyboards were specifically excluded from the vendor's return policy. That's another story/rant entirely.

I'd absolutely love to get my FP90 on my desk if there is any way to reasonably get it done, but there just isn't. My desk isn't big enough and the room isn't big enough for a bigger desk. The original hope was to move to a new house by the end of this year, but the COVID market has put a hold on that, too. So, in the meantime I was looking for 61-76 keys to fit on my desk that would make me happy enough. I was recently made aware of the Yamaha p-121 and Casio CT-S1 digital pianos. If I can find somewhere that has those, they might be another serviceable solution.
I'll still have to find myself a MIDI CC controller of some variety with faders if I use a digital piano, though.

I wish I could teleport to Germany and go to Thomann and try out everything in a store. I've been told that place is a wonderland of fun.

I'm derailing this thread, sorry about that. I tend to be verbose.


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## bill5 (Aug 13, 2021)

Pier said:


> No offense, but why anyone expect a cheap midi controller to have even decent keys?


Because the tech today makes that possible? I find it very hard to believe that a MIDI controller cannot be made for a relatively low cost that has at least a decent keybed. Maybe if a company focused on that and to cut costs left out the drum pads and most of the other bells and whistles (faders etc) that some of us don't give a flip about, they'd really have something. If I could find an inexpensive controller with just the basics - full transport controls, an octave changer (or not even that for an 88 key version obviously) and oh btw and on/off switch! - I'd be all over it. I suspect many feel the same, but who knows.


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## EpicMusicGuy (Aug 13, 2021)

I like my nektar lx 61, but I also bought it used for like 70$


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## Jorf88 (Aug 13, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Because the tech today makes that possible? I find it very hard to believe that a MIDI controller cannot be made for a relatively low cost that has at least a decent keybed. Maybe if a company focused on that and to cut costs left out the drum pads and most of the other bells and whistles (faders etc) that some of us don't give a flip about, they'd really have something. If I could find an inexpensive controller with just the basics - full transport controls, an octave changer (or not even that for an 88 key version obviously) and oh btw and on/off switch! - I'd be all over it. I suspect many feel the same, but who knows.


I feel the same. I want a good set of keys, transport controls, octave up/down, and like ~3 velocity curves. Faders would be a plus, but they're not 100% necessary. Knobs are completely unnecessary, as are pads. If there's no knobs/pads/faders, slim the form factor down as much as possible... but ffs give me a decent keybed.

It doesn't help that no place near me has midi keyboards out to demo. Even the local guitar center and samash don't have midi boards out. They have a handful of digital pianos, but not midi boards. They each have a "studio" room with a PC set up with a KK A series board (one is a 49, the other is the really small one), and that's it. Gah.

I'm tired of spingy, clacky, wobbly keys. I hear that companies used make good synth/semi weighted actions like 15 years ago... it's a shame that's fallen by the way side.


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## Quasar (Aug 13, 2021)

Pier said:


> No offense, but why anyone expect a cheap midi controller to have even decent keys?
> 
> Obviously the effort on the Nektar controllers has been put into the DAW integration and the knobs/faders/etc. These are definitely not products for people that care about keys.
> 
> ...


I dunno. I think my 88 key Yamaha CP33 has perfectly fine graded hammer keys, and I picked that up used for under $500. All I want from a 61 key is a reasonably consistent, smooth and quiet so-called "synth" action for non-percussive playing.

I quite agree with you that the Nektar T6 is all about the integration software for transport control etc. and that the keys are worse than awful, but actually unusable. I also agree that the Novation Impulse 61 has a more than decent keybed, and I miss it. When I stupidly bought the T6 based on web reviews, and further tried to fix the noisy action rather than return it I made two mistakes. And the irony is that I don't even care about the DAW integration and do not use it. My DAW transport integration hardware consists of a computer keyboard and a mouse. Live and learn.


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## Pier (Aug 14, 2021)

Quasar said:


> I dunno. I think my 88 key Yamaha CP33 has perfectly fine graded hammer keys, and I picked that up used for under $500.


I was referring to sub $200 (closer to $100) controllers.

While there are much more expensive controllers, IMO $500 doesn't fall into the cheap category.


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## Pier (Aug 14, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Because the tech today makes that possible?


Maybe, but I doubt it. If it was possible there'd be plenty of cheap controllers with decent keys, but that just isn't true.


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## Jorf88 (Aug 14, 2021)

Pier said:


> I was referring to sub $200 (closer to $100) controllers.
> 
> While there are much more expensive controllers, IMO $500 doesn't fall into the cheap category.


The T6 I was talking about when you made the original comment was $300. That being said, I would probably still consider it a relatively cheap keyboard (it's difficult to draw that threshold).



Pier said:


> Maybe, but I doubt it. If it was possible there'd be plenty of cheap controllers with decent keys, but that just isn't true.


I don't know about that... I've heard too many things about the keyboards of old that apparently used to just be built better. I'm puzzled in terms of keybeds because the boards from ~1-2 generations ago that used to (much more regularly) have various Fatar keybeds and were praised for it. The current generations that have Fatars are mostly TP100/LR, and that bed does not get the best reviews. The TP40/WOOD and 40/GH are given favorable reviews, but those are in ~$1K+ boards, so that's into the expensive category anyway.

It's really seeming like digital piano + midi CC controller of some sort is the best option now.


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 14, 2021)

I bought a used Akai MPK49 for $100, very happy with it, there are also versions MPK61 and the newer MPK249 and MPK261. Quite expensive new, often good price used.


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## Pier (Aug 14, 2021)

Jorf88 said:


> The T6 I was talking about when you made the original comment was $300. That being said, I would probably still consider it a relatively cheap keyboard (it's difficult to draw that threshold).


Yeah it's difficult to select a threshold, but I'd bet a big chunk of those $300 went into the extras and the DAW integration (which is what Nektar is most famous for) and not on the keybed.


Jorf88 said:


> It's really seeming like digital piano + midi CC controller of some sort is the best option now.


I agree. You get good keys with say digital Yamaha pianos compared to any of the typical midi controllers on the market. They are difficult to install on a desk though as those tend to be quite high.

I ended up having my Yamaha digital piano on the side, and a cheap Nektar GX 49 on a sliding tray under my desk. I move a Korg nanoKontrol around depending on where I'm sitting.


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## bill5 (Aug 14, 2021)

Pier said:


> Maybe, but I doubt it. If it was possible there'd be plenty of cheap controllers with decent keys, but that just isn't true.


Not necessarily. They may feel that people care more about bells and whistles so have focused on that and can't include those plus have a quality keybed for the price point they want.


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## TomislavEP (Aug 15, 2021)

I have used M-AUDIO Axiom 49 (MK1) as my all-around controller for ten years. I'm quite a demanding pianist and keyboardist, but Axiom suited me just fine with its keyboard action, aftertouch, and the general feature set. IMO, the knobs and faders are its weakest point. Had to replace mine due to the failing mod wheel.

I now have a new Nektar Panorama T6. Feature-wise, I don't have any major complaints, and its build quality is (IMO) more than decent. However, I can't say I'm too keen on its keybed - it has a characteristic stiff feeling with quite a resistance. As I'm using a separate Studiologic controller for piano work, I would prefer a somewhat lighter touch for other uses. On the other hand, its aftertouch is actually more seamless than the one on many professional keyboards that I've used through the years for live work.

Only a month or two after I've purchased T6, M-AUDIO had released a new Oxygen Pro line. Although I haven't actually tried it yet, this one looks like the best successor of the Axiom series. I think that Novation Impulse is also a good and reliable choice, confirmed by its long-term presence on the market. My only complaint about it is a somewhat boxy and clumsy design which might be difficult to fit into a typical studio desk with a keyboard drawer.


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## Jorf88 (Aug 15, 2021)

TomislavEP said:


> I have used M-AUDIO Axiom 49 (MK1) as my all-around controller for ten years. I'm quite a demanding pianist and keyboardist, but Axiom suited me just fine with its keyboard action, aftertouch, and the general feature set. IMO, the knobs and faders are its weakest point. Had to replace mine due to the failing mod wheel.
> 
> I now have a new Nektar Panorama T6. Feature-wise, I don't have any major complaints, and its build quality is (IMO) more than decent. However, I can't say I'm too keen on its keybed - it has a characteristic stiff feeling with quite a resistance. As I'm using a separate Studiologic controller for piano work, I would prefer a somewhat lighter touch for other uses. On the other hand, its aftertouch is actually more seamless than the one on many professional keyboards that I've used through the years for live work.
> 
> Only a month or two after I've purchased T6, M-AUDIO had released a new Oxygen Pro line. Although I haven't actually tried it yet, this one looks like the best successor of the Axiom series. I think that Novation Impulse is also a good and reliable choice, confirmed by its long-term presence on the market. My only complaint about it is a somewhat boxy and clumsy design which might be difficult to fit into a typical studio desk with a keyboard drawer.


I'm not sure about the axiom 49, but the 61 key had a Fatar keybed in it. TP9Piano, I think.

What do you think of your studiologic controller? I've heard many conflicting opinions about the SL studio range. I wish I could find somewhere to try one because the SL73 would be a great fit for what I want, if I liked the keybed.


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## TomislavEP (Aug 16, 2021)

Jorf88 said:


> I'm not sure about the axiom 49, but the 61 key had a Fatar keybed in it. TP9Piano, I think.
> 
> What do you think of your studiologic controller? I've heard many conflicting opinions about the SL studio range. I wish I could find somewhere to try one because the SL73 would be a great fit for what I want, if I liked the keybed.


I'm using SL-990 Pro in my studio for many years now and I love it. Its keys are actually quite heavier than those on my Yamaha upright and those on most grand and upright pianos I had the opportunity of performing on. But it suits my playing style very well. I'm generally fond of Fatar keybed, especially since I've used many stage pianos and workstations by Kurzweil over the years (currently, I have a PC3 and SP4). I still haven't got to try some newer keyboards by Studiologic, so I'm not sure how they compare.


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## Pier (Aug 16, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Not necessarily. They may feel that people care more about bells and whistles so have focused on that and can't include those plus have a quality keybed for the price point they want.


Nektar has the Impact product line without any bells and whistles. I own one because of the small footprint which is it's only positive quality (and the price).

If the tech was there to have a decent keybed at cheap prices the only thing that would explain the current situation is if there was some price fixing conspiracy among all keyboard manufacturers. Otherwise they would all be competing in the lower price range to sell the best keybed possible (which isn't the case).


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## bill5 (Aug 16, 2021)

Pier said:


> Nektar has the Impact product line without any bells and whistles. I own one because of the small footprint which is it's only positive quality (and the price).


?? They have a lot of bells and whistles. Faders, knobs, drum pads, etc which can be used in a wide variety of ways.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 9, 2022)

i just grabbed a Novation Launchkey 61.

i like it.

and you can turn off Vegas mode!


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## Elrik Settee (Nov 9, 2022)

M audio? mediocre kit with crap support


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 10, 2022)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i just grabbed a Novation Launchkey 61.
> 
> i like it.
> 
> and you can turn off Vegas mode!


the MK3 version


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