# Proper instrument pairings for orchestra



## Mike Marino (Jun 8, 2011)

Hey guys,

Can someone explain to me the proper instrument pairings for orchestra (or maybe instruments you want to avoid pairing or doubling a part)? Where can I find this information?


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## Hannes_F (Jun 8, 2011)

If you mean doubling (in the sense of two or more instuments or sections playing unisono or in octaves in order to create blends and flavours) ...

... then I don't think there are 'proper' or 'improper' combinations. This would be the same as asking painters for 'proper' color combinations. It all depends. You can combine contrebasses with piccolo if you like the sound.

In order to find your personal mixtures there are several basic approaches. One would be to listen a lot to orchestra works and analyze them. Peter Alexander has done this very systematically and calls every combination of voices a 'device'. For example Celli and Basses in octaves would be one 'device', horns in closed triads would be another 'device'. According to this school of thought every of these devices provokes a certain sound and therefore certain emotions. The idea is to study scores, analyze their devices and if you later feel you need a certain sound or emotion you can call up this information and use the device for your own work.

While this is a very systematic and more data-base-like approach there are different approaches too. One would be to to keep an eye on the intermodulation between voices. Different voices stacked together produce harmonics and modulations depending on the pitch (high, middle, low), interval and harmonic content of the single voices. This can make the resulting sound interesting, muddy or disturbing ... which is either what you want or what you want to avoid, depending on the circumstances. Trumpets in closed triads mix in one way, celli on the C string in triads mix totally different. This would be a more 'on the fly' approach that would rely more on the inner ear (or tryout with samples) plus some mathematical considerations than memorized combinations. In this approach you would switch to open trombone chords not because Wagner/Mahler/Williams did that but because you notice that close voicing causes too much friction and therefore mud (just an example).

A third approach (and a very classical one) would be to basically regard the big orchestra groups as choirs. Think of the strings as a choir with soprano, alto, tenor and bass, same for winds, same for brass, same for ...yep, choir ... and in a way even the same for percussion. Each of them have more or less those classic choir voices available. Therefore a classic composer would learn how to write for string quartet (the smallest string choir) and voice choir, then write some works for winds, and brass, and then proceed to symphonies and oratorio.

There are more approaches for sure, these are just a few angles.


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## maraskandi (Jun 8, 2011)

Tutorial Thread:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=


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## Mike Marino (Jun 8, 2011)

Thanks Patrick! Also just found the Korsakov Principles of Orchestration book online.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 8, 2011)

Also found the Korsakov Principles of Orchestration on-line lessons (all 26 of them) via Nothern Sounds:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line

And it's free!


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## MacQ (Jun 8, 2011)

I'd recommend the Spectrotone chart as well, if you want to "learn by doing" a bit more: http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Depa ... Chart.aspx

Really useful. Especially for the $20.

~Stu


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## Mike Marino (Jun 8, 2011)

Very cool. Thanks Stu!


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## rgames (Jun 8, 2011)

If I recall correctly, the online link to Northern Sounds uses samples for the recordings. That's not the best way to go about learning voice pairing because it doesn't sound like it ought to.

A better approach is something like Adler's orchestration book and CD's - he has live recordings for each of the examples in the book. I think Peter's collection uses the same approach but I'm not sure. Regardless, if you want to really learn how instruments sound when combined, do it via recordings of live instruments. Layering samples can have a very different sound, so examples taken from the literature for live orchestra is not a good approach.

Beyond that, I'll re-iterate what Hannes said: there are no real rules. There are standard approaches, but I wouldn't say they are "proper" because that implies that other combinations that are "improper".

rgames


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## JJP (Jun 8, 2011)

Quoted for emphasis:


rgames @ Wed Jun 08 said:


> If I recall correctly, the online link to Northern Sounds uses samples for the recordings. That's not the best way to go about learning voice pairing because it doesn't sound like it ought to...
> ...if you want to really learn how instruments sound when combined, do it via recordings of live instruments. Layering samples can have a very different sound...


I commend NS for putting the chapters in their forums and giving analysis, but the sampler mockup recordings are not useful in learning how the notated examples really sound.

I find it a bit like looking at a black and white photo of a color painting. You get a rough idea, but miss most of what is important. :(

Study those classical scores and listen to the recordings! =o
The same holds true for jazz scores! :wink:


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## maraskandi (Jun 8, 2011)

+1 Adler's Study of Orchestration


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## RiffWraith (Jun 8, 2011)

maraskandi @ Thu Jun 09 said:


> +1 Adler's Study of Orchestration



+2 Adler's Study of Orchestration

Some quick ones:

Dbl basses/C-Bassoon
Celli/Clarinet
Violas/Clarinet
Violins/Flute
Violins/Oboe
Trumpets/Trombones (octaves)
Dbl basses/Tuba

Of course that is nothing more than a very short non-comprehensive list. And Hannes' comment of:

_... then I don't think there are 'proper' or 'improper' combinations. This would be the same as asking painters for 'proper' color combinations. It all depends. You can combine contrebasses with piccolo if you like the sound. _

is exactly correct.

Cheers.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 8, 2011)

Thanks for the input guys. I suppose I meant more of the standard instrument voicings than the literal meaning of "proper" voicings.

- Mike


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 9, 2011)

Mike I've workwd out all the combinations for you in the Professional Orchestration series.

http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Depa ... Books.aspx


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## bryla (Jun 10, 2011)

I wouldn't say you've found all, since I always find combinations in classical scores you haven't included.

I would also recommend Adler's and Peter's books - and Peter's would be complete if he released the timecodes for the score excerpts, since it's really hard to listen to a 14min movement and find the two pages listed in the book.


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 10, 2011)

bryla @ Fri Jun 10 said:


> I wouldn't say you've found all, since I always find combinations in classical scores you haven't included.
> 
> I would also recommend Adler's and Peter's books - and Peter's would be complete if he released the timecodes for the score excerpts, since it's really hard to listen to a 14min movement and find the two pages listed in the book.



2A and 2B are the beginning vocabulary with nearly 1200 pages of examples. Volume 3 is in process with more.


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## bryla (Jun 10, 2011)

I know, but since 2A is melody within the string section and I find the melody orchestrated in the string section only and it's not listed in 2A I of course will say, that you haven't included all.


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 10, 2011)

bryla @ Fri Jun 10 said:


> I know, but since 2A is melody within the string section and I find the melody orchestrated in the string section only and it's not listed in 2A I of course will say, that you haven't included all.



I'm sorry I used the word ALL! But they do have ALL the most COMMON combinations which is what I was responding to for Mr. Marino. 

2A has 65 techniques mapped across 4 registers where available. Not ALL as in every single one in the entire world!

The same for 2B with winds and brass, the MOST COMMON. Starting vocabulary. 

If you found a few I missed send them over and I'll consider them for a future update volume.

PA


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## Mike Marino (Jun 10, 2011)

Peter, thanks so much! I appreciate the link to your works and will certainly look into getting these materials as soon as possible.

- Mike


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## om30tools (Jun 13, 2011)

I just went through studying Orchestration just recently.

I've realised that the doublings/unisons are chosen for effect.

It's a bit like porn lol

You get soft porn, hardcore porn, and the harsh fetishes.
It's also about size or the illusion of it e.g. in a small school orchestra strings doubled by woodwinds give the effect of a bigger string section.


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## maraskandi (Jun 13, 2011)

From pampers to pornographic orchestration, you're having a surreal week Mike, I can tell..


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## Mike Marino (Jun 13, 2011)

:oops:


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## JimmyPoppa (Jun 14, 2011)

Mike Marino @ Wed Jun 08 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Can someone explain to me the proper instrument pairings for orchestra (or maybe instruments you want to avoid pairing or doubling a part)? Where can I find this information?



Besides those mentioned above, there are also:

Textures and Timbres: An Orchestrators Handbook - Henry Brant
http://www.amazon.com/Textures-Timbres-Orchestrator-rsquo-Handbook/dp/0825868270/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308081604&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Textures-Timbres- ... 604&amp;sr=1-2)

Orchestral Combinations: The Science of Instrumental Tone Color - Gardner Read
http://www.amazon.com/Orchestral-Combinations-Science-Instrumental-Tone-Color/dp/0810848147/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1308082009&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Orchestral-Combin ... 009&amp;sr=8-2)

... and the Granddaddy of them all;

Thesaurus of Orchestral Devices - Gardner Read
http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Orchestral-Devices-Gardner-Read/dp/0837118840/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308082009&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Orchest ... 009&amp;sr=8-1)

The Henry Brant is based on his own concept of combining instruments. He explains his system and lays out the combinations.

The Gardner Read books are both collections of how instruments have been used and combined by various composers throughout history. Those two don't contain scores so you have to find them to see how they were scored. 

I agree absolutely with everyone who has said you have to hear these somehow. IMO, it's also very important to note that instrumental combinations sound quite different when: a. heard live in person; b. when a live concert is recorded; c. in a 'studio recording' of a live orchestra; d. in a movie sound stage recording and; e. most of all, using samples. 

Also, as others have said, there are major differences when combining different ranges of the various instruments. Combinations that work well in one range and dynamic level don't work at all in others. 

Further, the style of music and/or it's intended use will each play a significant role in combination choices. For example, there are several books that discuss combining instruments for Jazz Band/Orchestra.

A couple that give a good start on that might be:

Modern Jazz Voicings: Arranging for Small and Medium Jazz Ensembles
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Jazz-Voicings-Arranging-Ensembles/dp/0634014439/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308083402&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Jazz-Voici ... 402&amp;sr=8-1) 

Arranging for Large Jazz Ensemble - Ken Pullig and Dick Lowell
http://www.amazon.com/Arranging-Large-Jazz-Ensemble-Pullig/dp/0634036564/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b (http://www.amazon.com/Arranging-Large-J ... gy_b_img_b)

So, when thinking of "proper pairings" there are many factors to consider. You can't just say, this goes with that, and leave it there. There's just much more to it than that.

Hope this helps.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## Ryan (Jun 14, 2011)

Hi!
There are many nice replies here for you. But I just wanted to add that the VSL- homepage got some very nice description for you. And it's for free

Dunno if you need to be logged in to see it. But that's not a big deal!

Just a quick link here. to show you: 

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/70/3161/3168/3169/5563.vsl

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/70/3189/3190/5626.vsl


There you could see the sound combinations for a lot of instruments. 

Hope it helps!

Ryan


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 14, 2011)

@JimmyPoppa

Many examples from Gardner Read's Thesaurus are in Professional Orchestration v1 illustrated with full page/full score examples so the technique is learned within the context of the score and not just shown as part of a big list.

The other Read book, which I have, lists the combinations with no musical examples while Professional Orchestration 2A and 2B not only lists these combinations but also illustrates them across multiple registers with full page/full score examples so you can learn how to write for each combination in different registrations. 

Brant's book is extremely worthwhile, but many of his timbre combinations, especially with muted brass + oboes, etc., can be worked out from the Spectrotone Chart. Or put differently, the Spectrotone Chart + Brant is an excellent combination. No pun intended.

http://alexanderpublishing.com/Departme ... ation.aspx

I would also point out that the phrase "proper instrument pairings" is better replaced with "most common instrument pairings".


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## PoppaJimmy (Jun 14, 2011)

Peter,

I have all your orchestration courses and agree that part of their value is that you include the complete scores to everything. The Read books have only listings with no scores. 

Still, in terms of the question, he asked about lists of instrument combinations and that's exactly what Read does. I think many people would use those lists of combinations without really taking the time to actually listen to the pieces or go through the scores. I'm not saying I agree with this approach but, in the real world, I think that's what people will do.

I also have the Brant book and the Spectrotone Chart. They make for a nice set for thinking or your combinations is terms of related 'colors.' Of course, you might not be trying to do that in a particular piece but, again in terms of the question asked, they make a good basis for reliable combinations.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 14, 2011)

1. Go to the link below and click on the table of contents tab:
http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Professional-Orchestration-3-Volume-Set__PO-1-2A2B.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... -2A2B.aspx)

2. An unillustrated list requires, even with sample libraries, hundreds of hours of experimentation vs. Focused time spent with an excerpt illustrating the combination across multiple registers. And you don't have to research them which is even more of a savings of time.

And if you think IMSLP is free, cost out at-home printing and binding of several thousand pages for just the Mahler symphonies.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks again for the input guys! Sooooo much information! While the one part of me is cool with just going down a list and trying different instrument pairings (trial-by-error), the other part of me wants to really understand the "WHY" behind why this pairing sounds the way it does. Honestly, it'll probably be a good bit of both perspectives (depending on the deadline, lol).

Thanks again guys! I really appreciate it!

- Mike


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## Hannes_F (Jun 15, 2011)

Mike, perhaps consider re-reading my answer above then, it might not be as stupid as it seemed first :D


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## skyy38 (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm going to drop the word "proper" because it could really get in the way of some potentially *cool* sounds.

I've always likes the way John Williams combines flutes and trumpets, not to mention everything else.

Refer to the Original Star Wars Trilogy Soundtracks and you'll hear what I mean!


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