# Setting up from scratch [query updated!]



## ModalRealist (Jul 27, 2013)

Greetings and salutations!

_N.B.: I've updated my query to be more specific, although the more general question still stands. Take a look at my new post below for the more specific question. Thanks as ever for any advice you can give me!_

I've spent some time lurking on this marvellous forum but took the plunge and registered. Forgive me for starting a type of thread of which you may well be tired, but I would be very grateful for advice specific to my situation. I have headed each paragraph so that the post is easier to read. Please let me offer my thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to help me out!


*Background and Objective*
I was once an active performer, composer and conductor, primarily of classical music (to a very high, if not strictly professional, standard). I am about to acquire a lot more free time, and wish to devote it to my erstwhile hobby. Specifically, I would like to focus on composing and subsequently producing those compositions via the superb technology that has appeared since I last wrestled with Sibelius 3(!) This means I am starting from scratch as far as software goes, and I would like some advice as to where the funds ought to go.

*Current Kit*
I believe I am good to go with hardware: I have an old but functional full-size MIDI keyboard, and a pretty hefty desktop (i5 3750k @ 4.5Ghz, 8gb RAM, 256gb SSD, 2tb 7200rpm drive, GTX 670) as well as an iPad (heard it could be used as a MIDI controller) and a decent pair of 'phones. I have also just upgraded my ancient Sibelius to the new v. 7 (it was cheap!). I imagine I will use Reaper as a DAW on account of it costing nearly nothing. That leaves the money home free for actual sounds (I believe anyway - please tell me if there is something else you think it wiser to invest in).

*Thoughts So Far*
As far as software goes, I have funds to purchase Komplete 9 Ultimate, followed by £1,000 - £1,500 of other software. I believe Komplete is a good deal, given raw quantity of stuff (especially some essentials like reverbs, EQs and so on) many of which I either know I could use (Action Strings springs to mind!) or would challenge me to make use of (Massive, etc). (And it seems that many other libraries require a copy of the full Kontakt.) As for other libraries... I have looked at EWQL's libraries (more or less all of them) including the CCC2 package, VSL's Special Editions, LASS2, CineBrass, Project SAM, OrchestralTools and Spitfire. I have briefly encountered a few others as well. Of everything I have seen so far, I love the sound and approach of Spitfire's materials, but wonder whether they are flexible or inclusive enough to make for a good "base." On top of that I don't know which of their libraries to get first with my budget! (Incidentally, I am eligible for student discounts, so Spitfire do look good that way too.) I also adored the sound of OrchestralTools Berlin Woodwinds.

*The Question*
What I would like to know, most specifically, is how you would recommend I order my priorities in building up a collection of libraries, and by extension what specific items you would recommend at the start (given the £1,000 - £1,500 budget).

*Musical Style*
You may already have a recommendation in mind, but if not it might help to know a little more about exactly the kind of music I intend to right. The core of what I did is straight-up classical compositions. However, my objective in obtaining samples is not just to write for later performance, but to produce a complete performance (or very close to one) there at the computer. To that end I am also very interested in bringing just about anything of aural interest into my compositions (and that goes double if doing so helps to create a good end product aurally). Nevertheless the core of what I do is liable to remain within the classical sphere. If that still seems too vague (and it probably is) then let me rephrase the question slightly: what would you get in my situation? Starting from scratch; £1,000-£1,500; for pleasure not work.


Once again, my most sincere thanks in advance for any advice or recommendations you can offer; I really appreciate it.


Cheers,


Alex


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## TeroV (Jul 27, 2013)

*Re: Setting up from scratch*

Welcome to the forum! 

You did not describe exactly what kind of music you are planning to write (purely orchestral or mixed with other instruments, epic or lighter sound). That could be a helpful information for us to recommend you something. But judging by your background, I suppose the backbone will probably be orchestra.

Talking about orchestral composing, you probably will want to have something with individual instruments and not just string, wind and brass ensembles. Spitfire Albion I has been unanimously lauded in this forum for its features but it is ensemble-based and therefore not enough 'base' in itself if you orchestrate traditionally, with individual instruments.

I am a sample beginner myself with classical background like you, I bought CCC with EWQLSO a year ago. It is a good budget package that includes a whole orchestra. Obviously the sound quality is not top-notch as of today and I am increasingly feeling that it does not cut it compared to some other libraries, especially its strings and some winds.

CCC2 with the HW libraries seems to be a very good value for money, but be advised that it has high system requirements to work smoothly and you could run out of RAM if you don't upgrade it from 8 GB. EWQLSO is lighter.

May I ask why do you want to dish out money to grab the Komplete 9 Ultimate for starters? Provided that orchestral music is your main interest, you could take Kontakt and save that money to acquire good orchestral libraries, for which you will hopefully get more suggestions from the more experienced users. Kontakt 5 is now two days still in discount (just 200€) while Komplete 9 is not.

I grabbed Kontakt 5 this week and would strongly consider adding something from LASS, Berlin WW, Cinebrass and/or Spitfire libraries if I had the funds.

You should probably get something to send out CC expression data while recording your music. I am using TEC USB Midi Breath Controller and it is quite intuitive and leaves me free hands.

Hope this helps.


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## ModalRealist (Jul 27, 2013)

*Re: Setting up from scratch*

Hi, thanks for the reply!

To clarify my style, I like to make "well defined" sounds where individual lines and textures can shine. That biases me somewhat towards lighter ensembles/orchestras but not exclusively. (For example, from what I've listened to, larger recorded ensembles like Albion make for better smooth, broad strings.) I am also interested in bringing non-traditional sounds into my work, but this _is_ a secondary consideration. What I want to avoid is broad, heavy palettes that over-rely on sonic impact or stylistic tropes.(Though that is probably skill and effort more than tools, I'm sure!)

My rationale on Komplete is twofold. Firstly I can finance it monthly, meaning it doesn't impact my immediate budget (it will slow down my acquisitions of course). Secondly, I thought that a lot of the content would make a good general starter kit: things like the pianos, Action Strings, but also all of the effects (convo reverb, compressors, EQs etc). I'd very much like to know if that is sensible reasoning, or whether stuff like that isn't a priority when mixing more orchestral pieces (or indeed, whether the NI effects are suited).

If there is a consensus that I am better off picking and choosing bits from NI instead (AS, Alicia's keys, Evolve and Damage spring to mind) then that would definitely scratch Komplete from my list, so long as I can find out prior to the sale ending!

**edit* - more specifics*
Did some more research this morning and came up with the following two routes to go down, if I am better off not getting Komplete...

Option 1: EWQL CCC2 (-HOW, +Goliath, +Stormdrum, +Voices of Passion), upgrade to Diamond for HWS + HWB, Berlin Woodwinds (£1,500)

Option 2: Albion I + II, BML Horns, Spitfire Solo Strings, Berlin Woodwinds. (£1,245) with plans to add in Sable, Spitfire Perc and so on on an ongoing basis.

So to refine the question once again: does it make sense to junk Komplete and just pick a few things in the Blockbuster Sale? And then, which of the two options above would people recommend plumping for?


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## Chriss Ons (Jul 28, 2013)

*Re: Setting up from scratch*

I think at this point the best thing to do is to get KONTAKT while it's still on sale. While it's perfectly possible to get by without any libraries which require the purchase of the full version of KONTAKT, it does limit your options. 

I would say go with option 2, with this caveat: hold off any major purchases until you've listened to more demos, have read more user opinions, and have formed a better idea of what your workflow will be like - as the latter greatly affects not only which libraries to consider (many of which can't be resold, meaning your investment is final) but also what kind of template you'll run and what the system requirements are to do so comfortably. In others words: you'll need to be spending lots and lots of time in places like this one 

I think Spitfire's libraries are definitely among those you should take into serious consideration. Their products in general do not only sound top notch but are very much "living libraries" in that they are continuously being improved/updated and expanded. Libraries like Albion and the BML series complement eachother and are compatible - sonically, and in terms of workflow. Even if you should decide to not invest in Sable strings at this point - or decide to go with another solution, like LASS - Albion I & II would probably not be the type of libraries you 'grow out of', or feel the need to 'replace' shortly. I _do_ feel that way about NI Ultimate, though - it's great value for money, but it's still a mixed bag - not to mention a substantial part of your budget that could otherwise go to libraries which would better suit your style of writing/composing. 

(Note, however, that Spitfire's BML series is a good example of libraries which require the full version of KONTAKT.)


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## TeroV (Jul 28, 2013)

EW Hollywood line of products is allegedly good at broad Hollywood sounds, while Sable will excel at lighter settings. From what you are saying about your style, my guess is that the Hollywood libraries might not be the sound what you are looking for. On the other hand, they would provide you a full orchestra with a good sound and suitable for traditional orchestration.

If you are not worried about not having some single instruments in the beginning and expect to be able to spend more in the future to expand your options, Option 2 with Albion I as starter set looks good.

Only you can know how much you want the additional libraries in Komplete. Are you convinced that some of them would become your 'go-to' libraries?

An important thing to keep in mind is the learning and mixing effort, especially if your time is limited. More libraries from different sources means more time needed to learn the ropes.


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## muk (Jul 28, 2013)

The VSL Special Edition (and Special Edition plus (the expansion pack with more articulations, not more instruments)) is a great starting point if your composing neoclassical. You get all the common instruments with outstanding sample and software quality. And there are enough articulations for (neo)classical too.
Of course, if you have the money and don't mind learning different libraries at the same time (which is not easy, especially if you are new to mockups) you could go for BML Sable or LASS, Berlin Woodwinds and a brass library of your choice.


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## ModalRealist (Jul 28, 2013)

So after dropping Komplete from my thinking (how it became such an ingrained assumption I'm not sure - ignorance mainly!) I've felt a lot happier about both the starting up phase and an on-going plan. Abandoning Komplete means I should be able to expand more as time goes on. I've picked up Kontakt in the sale, so that I'm set for any libraries which require it in the future (that and its factory library can't be all bad).

Thanks for the heads-up on VSL. I actually looked at them quite early on but the website was a bit of a nightmare! Having listened around to various VSL demos of their different software, I found the Special Edition recordings to be very noticeably sampled/synthetic to my ears. Is that them mixing the demo badly to encourage purchasing more expensive sets? I noticed that, for example, their "Chamber Strings" bundle and their new Dimension Strings sounded miles better. (I got a bit dreamy-eyed over both of those actually; something for the future maybe.)

I keep noticing that people hold Spitfire's stuff in pretty high regard - and from my listening to all the demos and walkthroughs I could find, it seems warranted. Would people say that Sable I + II can work independently of Albion, i.e. for chamber-style string arrangements? Or do they really need backup from a bigger (aurally) library?


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## muk (Jul 28, 2013)

Interesting, I need to relisten to the SE demos. I'm using VSL SE+ for quite some time now, and it's great. Especially as a starting point into samples for a classical composer.
However: VSL strings do not get much love around here (I think they are quite alright. Not the best, but ok to work with). Spitfire Sable and LASS are recommended most often.
But for woodwinds, nothing beats VSL and Berlin Woodwinds imo.


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## noldar12 (Jul 30, 2013)

I would also strongly suggest VSL SE and SE Plus. Especially for all types of traditional classical music composition VSL shines. Whie their strings don't get much love here, especially in terms of cinematic styles, for traditional classical composition, they are excellent IMO.

I actually started with EWQLSO, and if I could start over again, I would go straight to VSL for traditional classical composition.

Longer term, when you have the funds, consider getting the full chamber strings, solo strings, and/or woodwinds I as good starting places for chamber/smaller compositions.

One drawback to VSL is the need for a good reverb. Also, if you do go the VSL SE route, once you are familiar with the basic VI player, consider getting VI Pro. It can greatly extend the available SE sample content via the "stretch" function.

Many companies make excellent libraries for a variety of purposes. The key is to find what best matches with your intended compositional styles.

Also the SE and SE + libraries should work very well on your I5. The original four SE libraries: SE 1 and 1+ and SE 2 and 2+ will load quite nicely in a computer with 8 gigs of ram, and a lower processor (even the old Qxxx series). Many of the newer and upper end libraries really need an i7, and 12-16 gigs of Ram would generally be considered the minimum. If you really are looking for the higher end sample libraries, you will eventually need to consider upgrading your computer.


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## Arbee (Jul 30, 2013)

From reading your background I would point you in the VSL direction (including MIR). I am about 12 months ahead of you down a similar path from a similar ("reborn ex-pro" but not stricly classical) background.There are many other great libraries already mentioned here but you may hit the limits of these libraries quite quickly if you are experienced and looking to write in a very detailed and flexible manner.

One of the biggest dangers at your stage is either buying things you only use for a short while, and/or buying so many different things you don't have enough time to get the best out of any of them. I steered away from Komplete, mostly for this reason. The VSL approach takes time to learn but you can build on that base as funds permit (and they do seem to permit resale under most genuine circumstance). Outside of orchestral libraries, I cherry picked a few very high quality libraries using the immense knowledge available on this forum. 12 months later I couldn't be happier with my choices.....

Just my 2 cents (and I have no association with VSL whatsoever).

.


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## Arbee (Jul 30, 2013)

ModalRealist @ Mon Jul 29 said:


> I noticed that, for example, their "Chamber Strings" bundle and their new Dimension Strings sounded miles better. (I got a bit dreamy-eyed over both of those actually; something for the future maybe.)


You could get a very long way with the full SE bundle, Dimension Strings and Dimension Brass (plus VI Pro and MIR) but that is certainly stretching the budget.

The popular vote however would go to Spitfire (for absolutely anything and everything they make it would seem on this forum :wink: ). 

Before you buy any orchestral library I suggest it's worth A/B comparisons between their demos and real orchestra clips. Several newer libraries, for want of a better term, sound "better than real" and thereby limit themselves to particular purposes. Another tip - research Soundcloud/YT for the worst clips you can find, it helps unearth the core sound of some libraries in the absence of carefully engineered demo excellence.

.


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## wanmingyan (Jul 30, 2013)

Only buy instruments that you need to use, not instruments that you would consider using.


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## bcarwell (Aug 1, 2013)

Alex,

Many thanks for doing my work for me in getting this thread started, as I'm almost in the exact position struggling with my first main library purchases (with a budget of $2-4K). This forum and thread I just discovered is a Godsend given the incredible wealth of experience these folks have !

Although I'm a semi-newb and thus my views are not as valuable as the sage folks who hang here I thought you might benefit from my perspective given the similarity of our status.

I have a more than adequate PC, Cubase 5, just purchased Kontakt 5, and as for libraries started with Miroslav Philharmonik, then got EWQL Symphonic Choirs and Jazz and Big Band 3, and some limited Garitan orchestral samples (for Finale). 
But I have longed to put my big boy pants on and get more extensive and quality orchestral samples. I am mostly interested in orchestral and chamber work and non "epic" film music at the moment but could branch out like you to include other sounds like world music, epic stuff, etc.

One suggestion similar to previous advice is, if you have not done so already, read some threads on what is involved in doing these simulations and the various considerations by the working pro's. I would highly commend the information/tutorials/threads/courses of Mike Verta (mikeverta.com). The epic threads on this forum relating to him are incredible for newbs like me, going into things like considerations/necessity of eventually layering sounds from different libraries and selecting compatible libraries that blend well, template building, reverb/EQ which is a huge part of realism, stage positioning,etc. etc. I have found Mike to be a very giving and helpful input, going out of his way to help newbs.

With that as preface, a few points from my perspective. I got Kontakt 5 recently because of the incredible 1/2 off sale AND the fact that there were something like 40GB of samples included. But the key point at least for me is that the samples included alot of Vienna Symphonic Library orchestral samples. I have been eyeing as my starter set ONLY the VSL Special Edition Complete Bundle for several reasons. So getting some VSL samples thrown in to play with for $200 was a real plus.

First the takeaway I've gotten from studying Mike's material is how complex this sample based mockup stuff is. Incredibly steep learning curves: I've had to learn the DAW (Cubase), several sample players/VSTi's that are inside the DAW (Play for EWQL, Kontakt, the one for Miroslav, the one for Garritan...), I have yet to purchase and learn the impulse response reverb (I'll probably get Altiverb although possibly Spaces for starters). Then there's the real tough issues once you get the sample libraries of building a template.

All this by way of saying one of my biggest concerns as a newb was buying too much stuff too early given all that I have to learn, only to find as I get better that the initial big purchases of libraries were not fully utilized and after I learned more I would better be able to know what I need to buy yet I've blown my budget. And by then the libraries have aged even more.

So... I plan on probably initially just getting VSL Special Edition and milking all the samples I've got now and only then, after getting some chops, buying other sample library additions.

One plus to VSL is, if you study any of Mike's video tutorials (many free BTW) that it has "dynamic veloctiy crossfade samples" controlled by the modwheel. Everyone has different preferences like keyswitching articulations and sample layers, CC1 or 11, expression or wind controllers etc. But he has just about convinced me especially for legato and if you watch his tutorials of the wisdom of real time playing input and riding the modwheel as opposed to the drudgery of editing midi data, quantizing, etc. So... I am most interested in sample libraries that support dynamic crossfading (like Symphobia, Albion).

Another consideration when you get around to layering different sample libraries for realism is that some libraries play together better than others (Mike for example layers VSL and LASS, or other combinations depending upon the instrument or whether brass, WW, strings, etc.) If I had blown my entire wad on several sample libraries as a rookie without knowing this I'm afraid I may have ended up with a sample library collection that didn't fit my needs after learning more. Also some libraries are wetter (more room ambiance and suitable for "epic" "Hollywood" sound right out of the box but hard to get rid of for other purposes) whereas VSL is drier and requires more effort if the epic film sound is what you're after.

Sorry for the long post but I couldn't help myself after finding someone in the exact same position as I- and believe me I've been thinking about this and studying re sample library purchase for what seems like an eternity- a very complex subject.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I think I'm going to start with some form of VSL to learn the craft, and only then consider adding on as I learn more.

Hope this helped. Please post what your final buying decisions were for this newb.

And GOOD LUCK !!!

Bob


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## bcarwell (Aug 1, 2013)

One other thing I neglected to mention.

Another approach I had considered was to start with only ONE section library, either strings, brass, WW or Perc and pick the best I could find. Then learn all the quirks of those instruments/section library thoroughly and get as realistic as possible and milk it for all its worth. Ideally some library that included solo, chamber and ensemble. Learn all the tweaks, stage positioning, mic-ing, reverb, EQ, playing techniques, etc. until I get as good as I can with it. 

Then either supplementing it before moving on, or moving on to (e.g. buy) another section library and set of instruments and do the same, whether strings, brass, WW, perc. Wash, rinse, repeat after earning my stripes from each section until I've covered all the orchestral sections.

Still considering this piecemeal approach of manageable bites (bytes ?). Could start with a much lower budget, insuring I'm not blowing my whole wad before I know better what the issues are and what I'm doing and get my chops together.

Reasoning for this approach relates to my prior post in realizing how complex this whole process is and how different brass is from WW and strings in mockups/synthesis. And avoiding unnecessarily biting off initially more than I could possibly learn/use and watching that "more" become obsolete before I ever got to it.

Of course the temptation in negating the foregoing is that I want a FULL orchestra to play with and NOW !

Just a thought. 

May the Force be with you.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 2, 2013)

Lots of really helpful advice and suggestions here, so once again thanks to all those chiming in. I'm loving this place already! I had a go with VSL via Try-Sound and I did like the tone of a lot of what I heard. Some of the actual audio demos on their site, though, leave me rather cold. Perhaps someone who owns the Special Edition(s) would take a brief listen to some of the demos and say whether you find your own mileage to be better or worse? Demos in question here: http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/261/2066/2087/2202/1876.htm

One other concern I have is whether a library can handle fast playing, especially on the strings. Not just rapid legato, but bog-standard rapid detache playing - think Vivaldi in full flow or even as "slow" as Bach's Brandenburg Concertos. I recall reading that LASS2 has legato that can move fast (and presumably can do fast detache too). If there are any recommendations for best Vivaldi or Bach string library then I'd certainly love to hear them!

Coming back to the immediate practicalities, I am very tempted by the newly released MIRx solution for VSL Instruments Pro. The current discounts on the software makes the VSL SE pretty tempting. I worry that it makes for poor future proofing though - since it locks all of that investment in to VSL's products and their (financially lacklustre) upgrade model. That then drives me in the direction that Bob mentioned: buying top-of-the-line libraries and slowly expanding to cover all the different sections. In the context of that route, the other libraries I am now mainly considering are Spitfire's Sable (and Albions) and LASS2. In both cases, the main draw is having a strong core string library which is flexible enough to do detailed part writing (and true divisi in LASS2's case). If there are any further suggestions on which approach and/or libraries would be best, then I - and I am sure plenty of others - would love to hear them. Thanks again in advance for any more advice!

Cheers,

Alex


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## G.R. Baumann (Aug 3, 2013)

Alex,

I read your post, and instead of giving any advice on spending your cash on sample libraries I would like you to consider that you will face a pretty steep learning curve, regardless what you purchase.

Starting from scratch with the latest technologies available with the intention to compose classically leaned tracks is quite a task to master. I am not too sure whether your choice of DAW, Reaper, is a good choice, I rather think it might be wiser to invest into something like Cubase, in particular because of the useful expression maps technology. 

To make it short, I would suggest to find someone who works with the latest technology already, and offer him a project based fee. The project being, to help you set up and build a system (Beyond doubts, you want more RAM and a harddrive strategy to manage your data) with templates and strategies (Backups and the likes) and help you a few hours setting everything up.

This investment should allow you to minimize the beginners headaches and focus more on the creative parts.

Just an idea...

Best
Georg


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## ModalRealist (Aug 3, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> Alex,
> 
> I read your post, and instead of giving any advice on spending your cash on sample libraries I would like you to consider that you will face a pretty steep learning curve, regardless what you purchase.
> 
> ...



Having played with Reaper a bit I have reached the conclusion that Cubase would be a good idea (its the software I used all that time ago, so hopefully lower learning curve this time around). I can pick up Cubase 7 via the educational license while maintaining my original budget. From a hardware perspective I am confident with altering the set up as needed. I built my current PC from scratch, so have no qualms about upgrading RAM or adding more drives. I'm inclined not to do so until I have a noticeable performance issue though. I know 8gb RAM is a little short-handed but luckily it is cheap to grow. Data maintenance is fine too.

That having been said, maybe getting a "consultant" in at the start would be good for the things that I just wouldn't see at all?


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## bcarwell (Aug 3, 2013)

Hi Alex,
I would just concur that Cubase is an excellent choice and the one I made and have not regretted it. Another plus is that as you know its on both the Mac and PC platform so you get the benefit of advice you can use directly even from folks on the Mac platform that run Cubase. Its frustrating when I see a great post only to find its based upon Digital Performer or Logic and have to translate mentally what they're teaching to Cubase.

Bob


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## muk (Aug 4, 2013)

Went with Cubase too, and have never regretted it. The expression maps alone are just so useful.
Of course, if you have the money and can stomach to learn different libraries on top of learning your daw, you can go with individual top-of-the-line sections. So you'd get Sable/Lass 2, Berlin Woodwinds/VSL Woodwinds, good brass (maybe sth from Sample Modeling - again a totally different approach to learn). Then maybe you'd want to have solo strings too. Some to decide: Spitfire solo strings, Embertone Friedlander, VSL Solo strings, LASS first chair... This approach is totally fine, if maybe a bit overwhelming (learning a library takes time, it really does).

But in my opinion it's a good approach to start 'simpler' and learn a lot about the creative processes involved and about doing mock ups, reverb, mixing, mastering etc. It did no harm to start with Garritan Personal Orchestra. If the mock ups don't sound REAL with it, you focus on and learn how to make them sound MUSICAL.

But no need to start with GPO  With VSL SE+ (I'd really get the additional articulations of the + expansion) you get every section of the orchestra in very high quality, in one library. Learn it once and learn it good - I think the results will be better than with many different libraries only half understood. For the beginning you get more time to focus on the creative part too.
On top of that, I don't think that the money for SE is wasted even if you add more libraries over time. It can still be valuable for layering, for example.

Have you had a look at VSL's video tutorials? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7joA9GKtKM

It's also helpful to see what working with samples in a DAW looks like.

These are just my 2c, and YMMV. Now I stop before I start sounding like a VSL salesman (already too late maybe  Btw, I'm not affiliated with VSL, I just started out with VSL SE+, and I'm glad I did). If you feel more comfortable with the section approach, by all means, go with it. The start may be tougher, but it may well suit you better.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 4, 2013)

Muk, I do like the relative flexibility of VSL, but since they don't do an education discount it makes it a bit pricier than the others I am considering. Would you say it was worth getting the volume one extended bundle alone (without the second bundle)? And would you say that VIPro was an essential purchase?


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## muk (Aug 4, 2013)

In the last two years VSL offered a 30% education discount on all products in december if I'm not mistaken. So they used to have an education discount during one month. Maybe they have sth similar this year. Probably you could ask them about it, would be worth checking out.
I do have the volume 1 bundle only, and for me it's totally enough. I never felt the need to get the other volumes. But then again I'm writing for smaller, classical ensembles and don't use 'fancy' or more exotic instruments often. So the standard orchestral instruments suffice for me. YMMV.

Eventually I bought VI Pro too (the humanization features alone would be worth it imo). But it's not necessary to buy it right from start (except maybe if you can get that 30% discount on it ) One thing less to learn at the beginning. The standard player is flexible enough.


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## DaddyO (Aug 4, 2013)

ModalRealist @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Muk, I do like the relative flexibility of VSL, but since they don't do an education discount it makes it a bit pricier than the others I am considering. Would you say it was worth getting the volume one extended bundle alone (without the second bundle)? And would you say that VIPro was an essential purchase?



As a first-year VSL user and owner of SE Vol 1 but NOT plus, I vacillated for a long time on whether I'd make my next purchase the standard articulations of Vols 2 or 3 rather than filling out the articulations of Vol 1. But I've come to the point that the PLUS articulations expansion is far more necessary than a second volume. Others might reach different conclusions, but that the one I reached.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks for the VSL heads-up, Muk and DaddyO. Given that VSL are reasonably likely to do another education sale at some point, I'm going to keep them at the top of my list of future purchases. In the meantime, I shall most likely splash on Sable (I love writing for small strings and I love the sound of the Sable pieces I have heard) and one of the Albions. And from there onwards, I'll see where my musical priorities take me. Sincere thanks once again to everyone who has helped me get started! I look forward to hopefully reporting back with a decent composition or two.


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## khollister (Aug 6, 2013)

I have been doing some introspection recently on where I am headed with my tools and will offer some long winded thoughts as well.

The punch line is I would recommend (as have a few others already) VSl SE V1 Full (Std & Plus), SE V2 Std, SE V3 (Appassionata Strings), Vienna Instruments Pro and MIR. While this may not have the ultimate state of the art instance of any particular instrument like you might get from the ala cart approach, it offers a single working environment that, in total, has a much lower learning curve than mastering a variety of products.

I think Albion and Symphobia are wonderful products, but are not the best match for your stated workflow and artistic goals. And while one can argue that specialized libraries (LASs, BWW, CineBrass, etc) have more realistic sonics and playability, there are almost always compromises that come with that (LASS probably has the least compromises except for a steep learning curve).

I have a ton of stuff now - LASS, BWW, CineBrass, Symphobia, all of the Albions, etc. but I still go back to VSL SE Woodwinds rather than BWW more often than not. Some of that is the sample purity (tuning is perfect, legato is great, no goofy noises or idiosyncratic playing) and part is the Vienna Instruments player. 

Having a classical background (as do I), I have come to think the VSL family offers a lot of positives with not that many negatives. The primary negatives can be cost (you really need MIR unless your engineering chops are good) and less than state of the art string sound. Appassionata strings are very good, but LASS and Cinematic Strings 2 are amazing. Aside from some challenges in using LASS with MIR, LASS and VSL are fairly close in timbre and being dry, so integrating those is not too mind bending.

I offer this as I am having some remorse over the amount of money I have spent on libraries I really don't think I buy today if I were starting over.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 6, 2013)

More food for thought! I am wondering if one of those recommending VSL would be willing to link to a "real" use case of VSL SE? (Noting if it uses MIR or something simpler.) I have had some hit-and-miss experience with the official demos, and I'd like to know what kind of sound those who actually use VSL SE find they can produce. (Hope it's no faux pas to ask for such!)


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## mushanga (Aug 6, 2013)

ModalRealist @ Tue 06 Aug said:


> More food for thought! I am wondering if one of those recommending VSL would be willing to link to a "real" use case of VSL SE? (Noting if it uses MIR or something simpler.) I have had some hit-and-miss experience with the official demos, and I'd like to know what kind of sound those who actually use VSL SE find they can produce. (Hope it's no faux pas to ask for such!)



Sure - this suite is pretty much 99% VSL SE all the way through. Bear in mind I wrote it a few years back so my mixing and programming chops were (and probably still are haha) rough!

https://soundcloud.com/matthewadamtaylor/sets/nisshin-maru

I must say that using Vienna Instruments Pro combined with Vienna Suite has given my VSL Special Edition collections a new lease of life. I'm definitely planning on demo'ing MIRx too (particularly love the sound of the Teldex Scoring Stage) and expanding my VSL collections in the future.

There's something about VSL instruments that makes me want to orchestrate and compose more traditionally than with other libraries - to me this is much more educationally rewarding and musically enriching.


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## muk (Aug 6, 2013)

Some examples I found which may show some of the different possibilities:

This one seems to be directly out of Sibelius (very nice for that, I think)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21BdAOu7wfI

A attempt at film music: Here I find the sound character to be very good, but the rest very synthetic (too little cc information, too little tweaking overall)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CImQGDh6jY

Epic, modern style (very nicely done, imo):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8rKj5jh9QE

This one's only VSL SE standard, and it sounds absolutely fantastic! This guy knows what he's doing (be aware, when you start out, it will NOT sound like this. It's an example of how it CAN sound under experienced hands with lots of training):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8NCjLZcyjw

And since you asked so nicely, a short piece for choir I mocked up with VSL SE+ vol 1 strings exclusively. I'm nowhere near a pro, and there are all sorts of problems (especially in the first half in the unison and the divisi parts).
I guess layering with another library would help somewhat, and of course more tweaking.
But that's more or less what I can come up with in reasonable time.

https://app.box.com/s/uswxpwo2rczr9rezvpjy

Btw. for the stage placement I used the free demo of VirtualSoundStage.

And something short for solo strings (a string trio, actually), just because I love VSL SE+'s solo strings:

https://app.box.com/shared/r6noins1pu


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## ModalRealist (Aug 9, 2013)

Thanks for the example tracks! I actually downloaded a bunch of VSL stuff to my MP3 player to listen on the road, and the sound left a much better impression. (I'm on a trip at the moment with an ultrabook, rather than my full setup.) However, after running a variety of demos past a number of musician and non-musician friends, VSL rather lost out to Spitfire. Since a key aim for me is producing pieces that I can hand out for people (and most of all those people) to enjoy listening to, VSL is a little behind in the running!

One more question, really. I would like to know whether people think Sable is a) capable of being a go-to/complete string library [I suspect yes] and b) *good value?* With a student discount, it's a little short of £1,000. That makes it the single most expensive library (in absolute terms, and possibly relative terms) I have looked at. But the articulations list is huge, the mic selection is great, and the sound appeals to me more than any library save (oddly enough) CS2.


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## Ah_dziz (Aug 10, 2013)

starting out I would recommend something self contained like the vsl se or even ewqlso. You can get down to writing much more easily that way and begin supplementing as needed. I feel that the vsl would be the most flexible option along those lines.


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## re-peat (Aug 10, 2013)

Ah_dziz @ Sat Aug 10 said:


> (...) something self contained like the vsl se or even ewqlso (...)


Actually, Sable is much more self-contained than most everything else, especially any Vienna strings. With Sable, you simply load the mic perspective which fits your production best (and there are plenty of perspectives to choose from) and you’re more or less done. No need to mess about with spatialization, reverbs, ER’s, IR’s, painstakingly calculated pre-delays or anything of the sort …, no, simply get familiar with the spatial definitions of the various mic perspectives and then choose wisely, depending on the situation. And that’s it. Which is of course not an option with VSL.
(And I’m ignoring, for a moment, the blatantly obvious fact that VSL’s stringlibraries all sound completely dead, plastic-y and completely unconvincing next to Sable.)

See, people sometimes tend to forget that: Sable may appear somewhat expensive, yes, but given the fact that you don’t need an additional spatialization tool ― and good ones, like MIR or SPAT, are not exactly cheap ― nor the knowledge and expertise to use such tools well, it’s actually very reasonable, even quite friendly priced. Besides, you can throw a million MIR’s, SPAT’s and even Bricasti’s at VSL-strings if you like, and things still won’t sound anywhere near as effortlessly natural, authentic and convincing as Sable does.

Anyone who’s serious about virtual strings, shouldn’t be looking at VSL, unless it is for the Dimension Strings, which, in the right hands, are not entirely without appeal. But DS is such a tedious, time-consuming and resource-hungry hassle before it begins to sound like a useful, ear-pleasing stringsection ― and, again, additional spatialization tools and some seriously developed production skills are an absolute requirement ― that I really can’t see them as a “go-to/complete string library” (even when, some day, the two missing sections, violas and basses, will have become available) unless you’re of a masochistic inclination.

And another thing: with Sable you also don’t need to consider solo-string overlays (which is what people often do, and need to do, to increase the detail of their virtual strings), since all that detail is already present in Sable’s small-section-based recordings. 

Honestly, Sable, to me, soars high above every other of today’s stringlibraries, both technically and musically: stellar sound (and I don’t say that often about an orchestral sample library) and about as versatile in colour and spatial characteristics as any discerning virtual strings user could ever hope his library of choice to be.
It may not be the best and/or only answer to all people’s virtual strings requirements ― HS and CS2 may be wiser and more quickly gratifying choices if you’re mainly aiming for the big, lush, sweeping sound, and LASS has a very attractive uniqueness as well, no doubt ― but if you like detailed, realistic and masterfully recorded strings which can be used in a very wide range of settings (from intimately chamber-like to full-scale symphonic), nothing comes close to Sable. It's not just good value, it's outstanding value.

_


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## ModalRealist (Aug 10, 2013)

I think that secures Sable as my choice of string library. Which leaves me with one final question. Would I be best off mixing a few libraries to start with (Sable, Cinebrass, BWW) or should I just pick up one of the Albions and BML Horns and wait for Spitfire to expand the BML? (In other words, how easy would mixing CB/BWW/Sable be? And would people think those libraries to complement Sable?)


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## muk (Aug 10, 2013)

Without owning Sable I'm with Pete on this one. For strings, it's between Sable (which I'd prefer) and LASS if you're going for classical style. CS 2 would be an easy to learn high quality lib for hollywood sound. VSL strings are really not their strongest part.
So if you have this kind of money to spend on strings only, I'd go with Sable.

Albion might be a better choice for film music (no control over individual instruments, only over whole sections), so I'd either get BWW/VSL woodwinds and Cinebrass, or wait and see how good the other Spitfire BML's are.


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## AC986 (Aug 10, 2013)

ModalRealist @ Sat Aug 10 said:


> I think that secures Sable as my choice of string library. Which leaves me with one final question. Would I be best off mixing a few libraries to start with (Sable, Cinebrass, BWW) or should I just pick up one of the Albions and BML Horns and wait for Spitfire to expand the BML? (In other words, how easy would mixing CB/BWW/Sable be? And would people think those libraries to complement Sable?)





I am thinking of not bothering in the near future with anything else orchestral, other than Spitfire, just because of the room it's recorded in. Mixing stuff from different recording environments is a drag. I can easily see myself having the entire orchestral palette from Spitfire just based on that alone apart from the other obvious benefits. Like sound. And operating speed.

If you want to thicken things up i can easily recommend Albion 1 or Albion 2. I am waiting on Spitfires woodwinds. I am sure they will sound just as good as anything else.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 10, 2013)

So on the basis of all this, I've resolved to pick up Sable and Albion II (love the eclectic selection in there) and get up to speed with it all by mocking up some of my old string chamber music. After that, I imagine I'll expand with either more BML, or something similar - we'll see how those libraries turn out.

Sincere thanks once again to all who contributed! I really appreciate it. This forum is one of the best I've had fortune to find - and that goes for its membership too. Hopefully the next time I post, it can be something other than the archetypal "complete newb needs help!"

Cheers once again, and happy music-making!


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## Ah_dziz (Aug 12, 2013)

re-peat @ Sat Aug 10 said:


> Ah_dziz @ Sat Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) something self contained like the vsl se or even ewqlso (...)
> ...



I meant self contained in that he would have all of the sections of the orchestra covered and recorded in a consistent manner, which I think is a big plus when starting out. Then one can simply address the shortcomings of each section as they feel they need it by supplementing with higher end libraries. Sable does sound great. I just don't know how much good having amazing strings and no other instruments does someone who is "starting from scratch" writing music with samples.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 12, 2013)

Ah_dziz @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> I meant self contained in that he would have all of the sections of the orchestra covered and recorded in a consistent manner, which I think is a big plus when starting out. Then one can simply address the shortcomings of each section as they feel they need it by supplementing with higher end libraries. Sable does sound great. I just don't know how much good having amazing strings and no other instruments does someone who is "starting from scratch" writing music with samples.



This of course depends on one's inclinations. When I first studied composition, I was first taught to write and manipulate a single voice, and then two voices (for the most meagre harmony) and then only for the instrument(s) I played. Now of course it is absolutely fine to jump straight in the deep end, if that is one's inclination! But it's wrong to say that having great strings alone is an impediment to writing. Each section of the orchestra is more than capable of being a complete ensemble in its own right.

Of course, perhaps previously string samples were not so good at holding on their own without support (VSL excepted perhaps). But what impressed me with Sable was just how it sounds in isolation. So I look forward to really diving into all the different qualities of sound that Sable fits in. I think mastering those on their own, before combining them with a larger palette, makes good sense. From my particular position, at least.


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## Ah_dziz (Aug 12, 2013)

ModalRealist @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Ah_dziz @ Mon Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I meant self contained in that he would have all of the sections of the orchestra covered and recorded in a consistent manner, which I think is a big plus when starting out. Then one can simply address the shortcomings of each section as they feel they need it by supplementing with higher end libraries. Sable does sound great. I just don't know how much good having amazing strings and no other instruments does someone who is "starting from scratch" writing music with samples.
> ...



I can totally get behind that. It seemed from your original post that you wanted to start out with the ability to produce a full orchestral arrangement. Writing for single sections is a fun and great way to work. I often do my writing with a piano or a guitar and then build a large arrangement around that. I guess I misunderstood the way you wished to start out. Good luck and have fun writing awesome music. It's a great hobby/ job to have.


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