# String arrangement & VSL divisi



## Richard Wilkinson (May 28, 2009)

I'm currently teaching myself orchestration. Which is obviously a not insignificant thing to do, but there's loads of info around, and thankfully a load of scores from the likes of Stravinsky, Rimsky-K, Holst et al to study.

My question is probably half orchestration and half arrangement though. I'm working on an orchestral suite, and starting by introducing my main theme 'A' section in the strings. Doesn't sound great, but it's a starting point.

http://www.wilx.co.uk/music/stringtestpiano.mp3 (Piano theme) 

http://www.wilx.co.uk/music/stringtest.mp3 (My work-in-progress with strings) 


So I have a couple of queries: 
*
1)* How would you orchestrate the theme? Is there a standard convention, eg:
1st violins play the theme, doubled 8ve+
2nd violins and violas provide harmonic support in three part harmony
Cellos and Basses play the bass

...etc - or is it really as open as 'do what sounds good to you'?




*2)* With respect to the first question, what's the best way of setting up this kind of thing in VSL apassionata? The legato and portamento are lovely, but it means each instrument is monophonic. So at the moment, I have (with each line being a separate VSL instance):

*1st Violins* - Melody, high register
*2nd Violins* - Melody, 8ve below
*Violas* - Harmony
*Violas* - Higher harmony
*Cellos* - bass, with a few small variations
*Basses* - bass

Any critique/suggestion would be welcome - thanks


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## lux (May 28, 2009)

your work in progress is nice to me.

After the early seconds of the piano piece violas staccatos begun to play arpeggios in my head. Cellos sound a bit static perhaps. After the first theme expression they could begin moving more.


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## Robin (May 29, 2009)

I can only comment on your first question.

Generally there are no "ultimate" rules on this topic apart from the obvious ones which are due to instrument's limits. The ones you mentioned are a good rule of thumb, but finding other solutions is almost unavoidable if you're writing for string orchestra and want to repeat the theme a few times.

I think your string arrangement is pretty solid so far. A few things you should keep in mind is:

- always check for the consistancy of your arrangement. If you start to learn how to write for strings you happen to sometimes write voices that are too far apart, like having way more than an octave between violas and 2nd violins etc. This quickly causes the arrangement to acoustically "fall apart" and makes it sound hollow. So always be aware of this issue. A good rule of thumb is to not exceed a sixth in close and an octave in wide positioning of your voices, which does not apply for the bass (which can be a bit further apart from the other voices). You don't always HAVE to follow this but generally that's a good rule of thumb.

Your orchestration of that theme as you've done it is like you orchestrated it for a forte passage in a tutti. I think it's a bit too much for this pretty soft theme. Adding violins 8va is a kind of option you would use to get a higher level of intensity close to a climax. Also you could consider taking out the basses at the beginning to get the overall sound a bit softer.


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## Richard Wilkinson (May 29, 2009)

Thanks chaps - that's some really useful advice. I'll post back the updated version when I get back from work and do some re-arranging.


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## om30tools (May 29, 2009)

This is an interesting convo, I'm currently also similarly at that starting point, although havent done the conventional pencil-to-paper score studying yet, only aurally.

Though, maybe I can offer two suggestions:

i). If you want to be soft, I think you could even be soft by starting without the mids, and using the bass/cello.

ii). Also, this probably isnt the case with you, but I've found that my first protocol for when planing to compose orchestral music, I have an immediate tendancy to bring out the violins. 

I've found, that its very easy to get bogged down into the string section, its an urge I'm trying to break, because everything soft I write has become so emotionally powerful and destroyed my initial idea lol. 

Now that's probably not regluarly hapening with you but if you have any other choices in your daw, maybe consider them, even a harp or guitar, nothing fancy, that's if you're considering keeping it soft. Ofcourse, theres nothing wrong with going ahead with just the strings for now, as long as you're doing it for reasons that satisfy you 

Btw, just my opinion, but I think keeping the piano to introduce the main theme sounds pretty effective too.


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## Richard Wilkinson (May 29, 2009)

harvestthesouls @ Fri May 29 said:


> Now that's probably not regluarly hapening with you but if you have any other choices in your daw, maybe consider them, even a harp or guitar, nothing fancy, that's if you're considering keeping it soft. Ofcourse, theres nothing wrong with going ahead with just the strings for now, as long as you're doing it for reasons that satisfy you
> 
> Btw, just my opinion, but I think keeping the piano to introduce the main theme sounds pretty effective too.



Thanks for the comments. I'm a brass player, and I've been fortunate enough to play in a really good brass band so I often try to use brass in places where people might tend to go for strings.

So the use of strings here isn't necessarily because I think they work better than anything else, it's more of an exercise; Here's a theme, how would this best be arranged across a string section..?

It's a good point though - I agree that one shouldn't automatically leap for violins, or a string section every time a theme is stated.


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## om30tools (May 29, 2009)

ah right lol lucky, im intimidated by using brass atm lol scary, but i gotcha, cool exercise! Hope its going well!


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## PolarBear (May 29, 2009)

Well, while not sharing much on topic I'd comment that you should not make to mistake to drown the piece in reverb on composing stage already. The subtleties are hided behind it and sometimes even more obvious things are just overlooked then mostly in the phrasing. If it sounds ok almost dry (little wetness is ok) it will surely sound great wet, which is not always true the other way around (but both ways for a real player).


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2009)

I dunno, PB, to me the amount of reverb sounds right. But I'm a big reverb kinda guy.

What you can do for more definition is give the strings a longer predelay. That will make both PB and me happy. 

And you really do have the Irish melody film score sound down pat - assuming you really want to go to the minor chord in the 8th bar of the melody instead of the major.


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## PolarBear (May 30, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri May 29 said:


> I dunno, PB, to me the amount of reverb sounds right. But I'm a big reverb kinda guy.
> 
> What you can do for more definition is give the strings a longer predelay. That will make both PB and me happy.


Yeah me too. Which is why I explicitely not said final mix. But composing stage. But now that you mention it, yeah, I think the arrangement is too intimate for a really big reverb setting. A tad less would perhaps be fine, and a little longer predelay, I agree on that.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jun 1, 2009)

Thanks again for all the responses so far - I've changed the arrangement, and brought it back a few bars later with a tutti.

http://www.wilx.co.uk/music/stringtest2.mp3 (It ain't finished), and I think the mix sounds horrible, so I need to do some work on it, as well as adding some percussion and balancing everything, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. The guitar is also a scratch track. I am to guitar playing as Stevie Wonder is to darts, so don't pay too much attention there.


Some general queries:
I'm never quite sure what to do with woodwinds in tutti sections - there aren't many in this piece yet, just some towards the end and the odd flute flourish. Unfortunately, the odd flute flourish sounds rubbish - and I'm guessing it's my idiomatic writing that needs work rather than blaming my samples.

The theme doesn't cut through enough in the tutti. I'm thinking it might be a mix issue, or possibly the trumpets should be on the melody rather than fannying around with some counterpoint stuff.

It sounds horrendous (to my ears) when the trumpets take over for the 3rd bar in the 4-bar 'break' before the tutti theme. I definitely want to have that little motif be played once by one section, and answered by another - but it doesn't sound great at the mo. Maybe an arrangement change is needed.

Once again, any thoughts would be welcome.


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## om30tools (Jun 2, 2009)

Hey there, just wanted to say sounds very interesting now!!!
I think once you finalise the mix it should all sound brilliant!

Personally I can hear the main theme with clarity all the time!
I guess it depends what kinda speakers did you mix for, I'm using my cheap Dell speakers(5yrs old) and they have a scooped response curve, so his and lows are boosted (seems to sound very good in this mix)


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks 

I'm working on the mix at the mo, and tweaking some of the arrangement. I'll post the latest version in a couple of days.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jun 4, 2009)

I've done http://www.wilx.co.uk/music/stringtest3 (version 3) now...

Just wondered if anyone had any comments re. orchestration/arrangement/mix?

It sounds quite muddy to me, and I had a hard time getting the flute/piccolo/clarinet flourishes to be heard - when quiet, they were virtually inaudible, but turning them up made them sound like they were in front of everything, so I put some more reverb on them which helped a bit.

This is part of a longer suite of stuff, with odd-metre action music, more comedic stuff & and different arrangements of the theme, so hopefully it (and by extension the lovely forum people ) will teach me more about orchestration, arranging and mixing this sort of stuff.


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## synergy543 (Jun 4, 2009)

Are you actually writing this out as a score or just laying tracks down?

I find that when I just lay tracks down, its easy to write music that's not idiomatic for the instrument. When you write it out, you can take a different perspective on it and might notice things you otherwise could overlook. You can compare stylistic writing with other scores you like. It certainly takes more time writing it out, although if your goal is to study orchestration it might be worthwhile.


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## PolarBear (Jun 4, 2009)

The woodwinds are virtually inaudible because there is only little counterpoint from them. All instruments are sharing the basic blocks and chord voicing most of the time, that makes the most (violins) the most upfront. The other thing is that in real orchestras they would use the vibrato to shine through more on these type of passages, but you're bound to pretty static espressivo patches there (if you got one at all).


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## om30tools (Jun 4, 2009)

Hey I think its getting better, but i see what u mean about the muddiness with the woodwinds, I was going to suggest maybe try panning them differently unless you're going for a traditional spatial arrangement dictated by where the instruments would be spatialised on stage.

I think the mix of the winds definately need work. It soudns to me like the main wind line is too background, whereas the supporting wind line is too foreground. 

Maybe re-position the winds to seperate octaves, was just reading 'Arranging for the real world: classical & commercial aspects ' couple days ago for a similar problem and got that advice from the book.

Personally, I'm interested in the bridges between the sections in this track, I think theyve lost a little bit of their original subtlety and teasing which I was enjoying, but otherwise cool!!!


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## Stevie (Jun 5, 2009)

I personaly can hear an Irish Flute for the melody. You know, that kind where you have a lot of up-bending. But not sure if it fits the context.


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