# Is Michael Giacchino replacing Hans Zimmer?



## toddkedwards

Are we starting to dawn a new era with film scores? We've been under the domination of Hans Zimmer film scores for at least the past 7-10 years. Could we say we are starting to see this slip and Giacchino will be taking that spot?

What do you think this will do for film music, since Giacchino does tend to do more Golden erea (Style) film scores, do you think we could see a return to form (I'm not sure about stucture as Mike Verta always says!) or will we still continue down the Hybrid/Zimmer approach?

I'm curious to hear all of your opinions and thoughts and let's have a respectful discussion with your thoughts and opinions. This is not intended to bash one composer or the other, because I love both Zimmer and Giacchino.

Thanks,

Todd K. Edwards


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## doctornine

Just mayhap, do I get the teensiest hint of an impression you don't like a certain style and / or composer.

Let the flamewar commence. 

Flamewar, it's the new hybrid.


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## tack

I've mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I pine for a return to the golden era of film scores like most of us here, I think. On the other hand, I really hope it's not exchanging Zimmer with Giacchino. To me, Giacchino's music feels like it's doing an _impression_ of traditional orchestral film scores. It's got some of the trappings, but when you peel off the first layer or two, it just looks like more of the same. At least Zimmer brought something new and different, and he is incredibly good at that.

I just got back from Rogue One and the music was a real disappointment. Not that I was expecting much, but maybe some small part of me was hoping for something more than superficial. There were two or three good _moments_ but otherwise no thematic development at all, and anything memorable was lifted from Williams (either themes or motifs).

But if Giacchino was the gateway drug bring composers like Desplat or Iglesias to the forefront, that would be a lovely outcome.


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## Baron Greuner

Well the thing of it is, if it's directed by JJ Abrams I won't bother to look or listen anyway. Just looking down through the films that this composer scores, I can't be bothered with all of that personally. It's fucking junk for kids on a bottom up film making basis. That's where the money is. Bottom up. Top down these days and probably always was, is almost a pro bono thing with actors working to scale.

Why anyone would even go to a cinema to watch anything to do with Star Wars after the first film in the 70s (yes I saw it when it came out at the cinema) is a mystery to me. Same with Harry Potter bollocks. Alright, I'll concede that if you're kid then that's acceptable because kids all have their films throughout the ages. My films when I was a kid were slightly different though. Most of them were actually frightening and would kill most kids almost instantaneously in their seats today, or they would run screaming from the cinema with years of psychiatric treatment to follow. Dunno. You choose.


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## PaulComp

I agree with your Rogue One assessment. I was also very disappointed with the score. Watching Star Wars for the first time back in 1978 got me hooked on classical music at a very early age. I can still remember humming all the music as a child while playing with all the toys. I can't imagine the Rogue One score having anywhere near the same impact on a 5 year old child today.


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## Ashermusic

Gee, wasn't aware we could only have 1 dominant composer at a time


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## Gabriel Oliveira

I hope not


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## reddognoyz

As soon as apples replace oranges


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## AR

toddkedwards said:


> Are we starting to dawn a new era with film scores? We've been under the domination of Hans Zimmer film scores for at least the past 7-10 years. Could we say we are starting to see this slip and Giacchino will be taking that spot?
> 
> What do you think this will do for film music, since Giacchino does tend to do more Golden area film scores, do you think we could see a return to form or will we still continue down the Hybrid/Zimmer approach?
> 
> I'm curious to hear all of your opinions and thoughts and let's have a respectful discussion with your thoughts and opinions. This is not intended to bash one composer or the other.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Todd K. Edwards


I wouldn't go that far. People just getting older. Translating that in musical language: Musicians/Composers are getting better, becoming picky, don't score every stupid senseless Blockbuster. But also getting slower (workflow speaking) :/ Sorry, don't wanna piss somebody off  ...props to you older guys...women like older men


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## toddkedwards

doctornine said:


> Just mayhap, do I get the teensiest hint of an impression you don't like a certain style and / or composer.
> 
> Let the flamewar commence.
> 
> Flamewar, it's the new hybrid.


No, I love Hans and his approach to film scoring. I think he serves the picture well with what he does. I know he is not John Williams, but who is? I was just curious to see what people thought on the issue, it was not meant to bash either composers.

I think when Hans took the spotlight he did change film scoring, and whoever is the next in line to replace him, will they have the same effect as he did?


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## Zhao Shen

Nope. Zimmer didn't define film music by consistently scoring big movies, he defined film music by introducing an effective style that a lot of directors loved. Might get obliterated for this, but I'm also not a big fan of Giacchino's work. Every score he's done has been "good" or "great" but nothing truly amazing. But hey, maybe it's just personal taste. Whenever I listen to his music I'm left wanting richer orchestration or more complexity. To me his music is just too minimal, and it showed a lot especially in Rogue One.


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## Wes Antczak

FWIW and perhaps off tangent to this thread, I believe Giacchino completed the score to Rogue One in six weeks. He got hired on to the project at the last minute in order to replace Alexandre Desplat. Back on topic... I don't think there is any doubt that Hans has made a huge impact on modern film scoring.


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## zvenx

I think HZ is too talented and (I want to say amorphous, but it gives the wrong connotation) so I will say willing to change his style (multi-stylistic?  ) to be 'replaced'.
That being said MG is one talented composer.
He is one of the two composers who I heard their work before they became rich and famous, that I was totally intimidated by (Bear McCreary is the other one).

rsp


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## merlinhimself

Zhao Shen said:


> Nope. Zimmer didn't define film music by consistently scoring big movies, he defined film music by introducing an effective style that a lot of directors loved. Might get obliterated for this, but I'm also not a big fan of Giacchino's work. Every score he's done has been "good" or "great" but nothing truly amazing. But hey, maybe it's just personal taste. Whenever I listen to his music I'm left wanting richer orchestration or more complexity. To me his music is just too minimal, and it showed a lot especially in Rogue One.



Ive always been a big fan of Giacchino and definitely admire a lot of his work, but i left the theatre last night feeling the same way. Like someone said before it sounded like it was mostly impressions of John Williams, which i understand its "Star Wars" and needs to sound like "Star Wars", but i was hoping for more. It still was good though!


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## Ashermusic

AR said:


> Composers are getting better



No, speaking about composers they are most decidedly not. When it comes to range of styles, ability to score, orchestrate and conduct, this era cannot compare as an _overall_ group level, although the best are arguably as good.


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## Dave Connor

Very Silly Subject Title!! You cannot 'replace' the likes of Hans Zimmer. You can chose another composer but that's about it. Giacchino is talented but not in HZ's league by miles and miles. One is struggling to stand in the shoes of the great orchestral
composers of film history (and having a hard time of it) and the other still in the process of leaving shoes that will be impossible to fill.


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## Grizzlymv

well, for those who feel Rogue One is lacking inspiration, please keep in mind that he had only a few weeks (4 or 5) to write it all as he was replacing Alexandre Desplat at the last minute. Haven't seen the movie yet myself, so will have to wait until I see it to the picture but what I heard so far still sound in the spirit of the movie. I don't think anybody else could have delivered a SW score as we know it, beside Williams himself. 

As for the hybrid vs golden age question, I'd say I don't give a damn. To each movie its style/music. I mean there's movies where the classical style fits more, but the inverse is often true where an hybrid/electronic score fits better than a classical one. There's place for both I think , and to me there's no one is better or worst than the other. They serve different purpose. I can appreciate Giacchino's work just as I do with Zimmer and many other. No room for flamewar here imho.


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## toddkedwards

Ashermusic said:


> Gee, wasn't aware we could only have 1 dominant composer at a time


I agree, it just seems that all Hollywood film's have or were scored by Hans. (This is not a bad thing.) All composers have seasons, and when they are hot then fade away (ex. Williams, Horner, Goldsmith etc.)


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## Kaan Guner

I'd say his work for Dr. Strange would be a step behind for what he did in Star Wars.

You can always argue that it was a Marvel Film so he was at a disadvantage but I don't buy it. His work for ending credits on Dr. Strange passes only as a theme, but not in a meaningful way. I concur, it's not so easy to write a theme for a character but one's work should parallel the character he writes for. The theme he wrote for Strange just didn't seem to be connected to the character any meaningful way for me.

This doesn't mean anything, of course, if you didn't watch the movie but the theme I'm talking about is this:


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## Kent

Zimmer is arguably not the "greatest" composer to ever write for film (not even John Williams would be by most metrics), but he's certainly one of the greatest film scorers. There is a difference, and it has a lot to do with understanding drama, nuance, and zeitgeist in a way beyond the concert hall or LP. Zimmer is also probably the most business-savvy of any who have ever scored for film. Between him and the team of assistants and collaborators he has assembled, there is nothing a director could dream of that he couldn't knock out of the park.

Of course MG is an unconvincing Williams. John Williams is probably 45% of what it means to be "Star Wars." It's almost like asking Hayden Christiansen to play Darth Vader  it had to be done, but it would never be "the same." Heck, even JW of VII wasn't the JW he was in the PT much less that of the OT. I'd argue that losing London also dramatically influenced the sound (but I'm the guy who thinks anything after the very first soundtrack was recorded with too much polish - there's just something so raw and immediate about the original score). 

In any case, you're comparing apples to oranges here. HZ "rewrote the rules" for scoring blockbusters, and for better or worse here they are to this day. MG, as much as I love much of his music, hasn't.


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## tack

kmaster said:


> Heck, even JW of VII wasn't the JW he was in the PT much less that of the OT.


But at least we got one good theme in TFA. I think I might have been satisfied if Giacchino even just _tried_ to establish a theme for Jyn. (Or maybe he did try and it failed to find its way into my head.) The way Rey's theme was woven throughout the TFA soundtrack is what redeemed it in my mind. (That combined with a few excellent moments and a tease for a solid new theme in VIII.) Of course the original trilogy was a Gatling gun of thematic development but it's not fair to set that kind of a bar. Just one good solid theme for our hero that develops with the arc of the story that lets us follow the character's growth and I'd be satisfied.


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## Kaan Guner

tack said:


> But at least we got one good theme in TFA. I think I might have been satisfied if Giacchino even just _tried_ to establish a theme for Jyn. The way Rey's theme was woven throughout the TFA soundtrack is what redeemed it in my mind. (That combined with a few excellent moments and a tease for a solid new theme in VIII.) Of course the original trilogy was a Gatling gun of thematic development but it's not fair to set that kind of a bar. Just one good solid theme for our hero that develops with the arc of the story that lets us follow the character's growth and I'd be satisfied.



I wanted to add i can still hum The Resistance theme.


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## ghostnote

I have to disagree. Two different concepts. Zimmer (nowadays more than ever) stands for minimalism, Giacchino for "the last..." purely orchestral composer. I've said this once, I'll say this twice: Giacchino is absolutely great at emotional, drama, mystery etc., but he lacks in action and themes. That's nothing bad, it's just his character, it's his tempo. Hans on the other hand is absolutely great at themes. While I don't know how much assistants and co-writers Giacchino has, we all know that Hans has a gazillion of them. They all can copy his style and fill the gaps to get the score done as quick as possible. Something I'm not sure Giacchino has in his repertoire (does a composer need to btw? I think no). But is Giacchino the "Son of Williams"? NO, he's just like Gary Clark Jr.: Talented but just there because there isn't anything better available. Just to keep the genre alive.

It's a clash of conservative against progressive. In the end both will live on and find their ways into their genres.



kmaster said:


> In any case, you're comparing apples to oranges here. HZ "rewrote the rules" for scoring blockbusters



Quite Frankly no, he has not. He was just in the right spot and was the most prolific contestant. Trend in music is like an snowball running down the hill, it can take an uncontrolled turn based on which direction is the most dominant. Hans was exactly that during the late 80s and the 90s. What people count as break is in reality a process.


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## Musicam

If you check this question, think a moment: Sing a theme of Hans ....!!
----------------------------------------------------------
And now sing a theme of Giaccino...
............................................
Zimmer no?


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## Arbee

From some of the things I'm starting to hear as soundtracks now, I suspect the reverse may be happening - i.e. that TV/film composing will head towards even more pure sound design and there will be even less music/composing in the traditional sense in TV and film.

But I'm old enough to see the wheel keeps turning and things go around, come around. I even remember some decades ago a passing fad of "if you can't see someone playing it on the screen, be it an instrument or a radio, there shouldn't be music"...


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## patrick76

Michael Chrostek said:


> Giacchino is absolutely great at emotional, drama, mystery etc., but he lacks in action and themes.


I think his theme in The Incredibles is very strong.


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## Parsifal666

kmaster said:


> Zimmer is arguably not the "greatest" composer to ever write for film (not even John Williams would be by most metrics),



Could you be more specific who these metrics are who don't think John Willims is the greatest film composer? Zimmer certainly thinks so. I'm simply curious where/from whom you're getting this.


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## Kaan Guner

Musicam said:


> If you check this question, think a moment: Sing a theme of Hans ....!!
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> And now sing a theme of Giaccino...
> ............................................
> Zimmer no?



Does a theme have to be hummable or singable? Hans' aren't that much. But I can recall Beautiful Lie. Although not remembering the names I can recall his work on Dark Knight and Man of Steel easily either. Time from Inception has that signature sound that makes you remember the film. Inception is the same.

Giacchino on the other hand is strong on his work on Lost. Those are pretty memorable to me. That tension build up on Lost and the lovely piano piece he composed for the series. Those are absolutely top notch. I didn't listen Giacchino that much. I don't know his other previous works to detail.


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## Parsifal666

I can think of a dozen Zimmer themes right off. I never even heard of Giacchino, and I'm not crazy with what I've heard here, to be completely honest.


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## Kaan Guner

Parsifal666 said:


> I can think of a dozen Zimmer themes right off. I never even heard of Giacchino, and I'm not crazy with what I've heard here, to be completely honest.



I don't know if you watched Lost but anyone who has done it while it aired should remember these two:


Spoiler


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## Parsifal666

Kaan Guner said:


> I don't know if you watched Lost but anyone who has done it while it aired should remember these two:
> 
> 
> Spoiler




I did like the first couple seasons of that show, and the themes are pretty cool imo.


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## ghostnote

Kaan Guner said:


> Giacchino on the other hand is strong on his work on Lost. Those are pretty memorable to me. That tension build up on Lost and the lovely piano piece he composed for the series. Those are absolutely top notch.


Absolutely. I always admired his work on Lost. It almost seems like he switched too early from TV to Movies.



patrick76 said:


> I think his theme in The Incredibles is very strong.


Frankly, I don't think so. Neither does his work on Star Trek IMO.


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## Kaan Guner

Arbee said:


> From some of the things I'm starting to hear as soundtracks now, I suspect the reverse may be happening - i.e. that TV/film composing will head towards even more pure sound design and there will be even less music/composing in the traditional sense in TV and film.
> 
> But I'm old enough to see the wheel keeps turning and things go around, come around. I even remember some decades ago a passing fad of "if you can't see someone playing it on the screen, be it an instrument or a radio, there shouldn't be music"...



I don't watch Tv Series A LOT. But Westworld and The Leftovers have very nice themes and music. I'd say TV series are doing fine.


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## Saxer

The best composers wouldn't change film music if they are not allowed to write what they want. As long as films are planned and produced by business economists we will have different kinds of retro at the most. When films will have new themes and ideas other than remakes there will be hope for real changes again. And those changes will be different from all we hear now.


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## novaburst

kmaster said:


> Of course MG is an unconvincing Williams. John Williams is probably 45% of what it means to be "Star Wars." It's almost like asking Hayden Christiansen to play Darth Vader  it had to be done, but it would never be "the same



It seems like I am the only one to see innovation in John Williams latest stare wars perhaps I am seeing what you don't see or I am not seeing at all, but I certainly saw, or heard some thing great in his latest star wars, and would put it at his best.


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## sourcefor

I agree with the INCREDIBLES score, I love it and think it is great! They both have their strengths and weakness as do all of us...and I think Hans will be around for quite awhile! I wonder why Giacchino replace Desplat?


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## patrick76

Michael Chrostek said:


> Frankly, I don't think so. Neither does his work on Star Trek IMO.


Ah, I'm surprised you disagree. What would you say you don't find in it that you think should be there that would make it a strong theme?


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## patrick76

sourcefor said:


> I wonder why Giacchino replace Desplat?


He was replaced due to reshoots causing Desplat to have scheduling conflicts.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-rogue-one-replaces-929387


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## ghostnote

patrick76 said:


> Ah, I'm surprised you disagree. What would you say you don't find in it that you think should be there that would make it a strong theme?


The score is worked out well, but it's IMO not recognizable enough. I've had the same image of his Star Trek score. I loved his stuff from LOST, but his movie stuff (except UP!) was very disapointing.


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## dcoscina

patrick76 said:


> I think his theme in The Incredibles is very strong.


It's a good theme but heavily derivative of John Barry who was actually supposed to score The Incredbiles but left the project due to creative difference I understand,


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## dcoscina

You know what floors me? Absolutely floors me? How John Powell has not been considered for these big projects. Can you imagine a John Powell SW? The guy has thematic chops and then some, and his HTTYD series contains some of the most beautifully scored sequences in modern film history. Powell's orchestration on HTTYD2 was as close to concert works on the level of VW without being derivative. It kills me that Giacchino and guys like Reznor have Oscars and Powell who's been delivering innovative works for decades still has none. 

Next to John Williams, Powell is my fave of the newer gen of composers. 

But I love a lot of what Hans is doing these days too!


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## willf_music

I think a lot of this depends on how film changes. The aesthetics, filming methods, editing methods and genres really do need to have music that matches. I mean lets face it... I think many of us are sick of superhero movies.

Personally, I love the drama found in good films like: 
-Hannibal
-Castaway
-Silence of the Lambs
-Forest Gump
-Land Before Time
-Dark Night
-Indianna Jones and Starwars

The list could go on. But judging by past work of Zimmer, he will still be relevant just as other professional composers. He can make an adventure out of Pirates of the Caribbean or a malicious character like in Hannibal OR a wonderfully engaging and thematic score like Price of Egypt.

Giacchino is similar in that regard as is Williams, Horner(RIP), David and Thomas Newman, Desplat and many others. I think it is a mistake to go and imitate another style because that misses the question (in my humble opinion).

What I am trying to learn currently is more general. Not only how can I orchestrate in my own style but how can I write a love theme? How can I write an adventure theme? How can I write a theme that I can modulate easily or put into other keys or ranges? Why is Indiana Jones and Harry Potter so perfect for THOSE films? Why is the OST to Castaway so simple but so PERFECT for that film in particular? How can I write to character or story or setting? When I listen to some scores, there is pacing and changing of chord progressions in such a way that the music concludes with the dialogue. To me, that seems so much more important of a question. Let's face it, a Williams score would not have worked for Inception and Zimmer's proclivities would not have worked as well for Up. This is not to say that these people could not compose in a style appropriate to the film.

There is so much to learn but I think that: The flexibility of professional composers is what gives them longevity in their careers because it means they can adapt to a number of projects. That obviously means that they can work on a number of projects and styles but also they do deliver. I think that is more important than them being 'style of the moment'.

As a composer and someone who tries to train as much as I can... I have a lot to learn. But these are the fundamental questions I think are more important for me at my skill level (which leaves plenty to be desired).

But there was never any doubt that Giacchino was skilled. He did games, and films and theme park rides. Stylistically you can tell what is his vs Desplat vs Ritmanis vs Arnold. But perhaps a lot of that comes from you as an individual composing in a way that makes sense to you and your workflow. However, the most common thing for all of these people to admire is that they seem to address the audience by making some superbly complimentary to the visual regardless of genre or style.

Just my thoughts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## zvenx

JP is indeed one of my favourites too. Seemlessly blends different elements and sources, but didn't he quit film scoring?

Or at least took a break.
rsp


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## prodigalson

dcoscina said:


> It's a good theme but heavily derivative of John Barry who was actually supposed to score The Incredbiles but left the project due to creative difference I understand,



It was supposed to be derivative. AFAIK, MG didn't have a choice about the overall aesthetic of the film. The reason John Barry bailed was because they wanted it to be derivative of his Bond work and he wasn't interested in doing that.


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## dcoscina

prodigalson said:


> It was supposed to be derivative. AFAIK, MG didn't have a choice about the overall aesthetic of the film. The reason John Barry bailed was because they wanted it to be derivative of his Bond work and he wasn't interested in doing that.


You are correct sir. I enjoyed the score but let's be honest- Tim Simonic should get a lot of credit for that as well since he's a noted jazz composer


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## Jediwario1

zvenx said:


> but didn't he quit film scoring?
> 
> Or at least took a break.



Yeah he took some time off to write and complete "A Prussian Requiem" (which I'm looking forward to hearing). Also don't forget that his wife died this year (RIP) .

Like everyone else I would also love to see Powell score a Star Wars film someday, his work on HTTYD 1& 2 is simply outstanding. Although I didn't enjoy his Pan score very much (but that was a terrible film).


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## JohnG

EpicDude said:


> to replace him you have to do what he does but better



That isn't how it works. Hans replaced the other guys by doing something different from what they were doing and that's what will be next -- something different. Nobody replaced John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith by "doing them" better -- who's going to do that?

Johann Johannsson is doing cool things, James Newton Howard continues to do cool things -- other guys too. There is always somebody thinking up a new approach.

And all that "orchestration or stuff" is important, to Hans as well as the rest of us.


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## AR

Ashermusic said:


> No, speaking about composers they are most decidedly not. When it comes to range of styles, ability to score, orchestrate and conduct, this era cannot compare as an _overall_ group level, although the best are arguably as good.


I meant they're getting better with the years. Just speaking of myself


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## babylonwaves

dcoscina said:


> It kills me that Giacchino and guys like Reznor have Oscars and Powell who's been delivering innovative works for decades still has none.


it is unfortunate. IMO he really deserves one. certainly more than steven price.


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## FriFlo

While I think the thread title is a little provocative, as nobody should or will replace anyone IMO, I still think there is a certain desire for more diversity in film music of today. Listening especially to trailers, you cannot help but see the thing has become somewhat predictable, can you? This has partly become true for film music as well, although I always want to be careful with wanting back a "golden age", just because people tend to remember all the great stuff and forget the tons of BS it produced as well ...
Giacchino is a great guy and he has done a good job with rogue one IMO (from just listening to the music, but not having watched the film, yet). But his compositions don't seem to quite reach the level of Williams. I don't mean to be hard, as that is a very high goal almost no one seems to achieve. He is a little bit more predictable and repetitive, if you asked me to put a hand on it. Also, some of his melodies and form seem to hit the structure of pop songs, which is not the way Williams did establish the sound. He is a great padawan, though!  That being said, trying myself to do a Star Wars movie properly, I could see myself failing to do it in so many ways! So, kudos to his accomplishment. One thing that gives Williams the ability to score in all his greatness is the ability to just do his thing, write one spectacular cue for each reel and concentrate all his abilities on it. Today, with all the temp tracks, midi mockups and other people trying to influence the music, it has become harder to focus on the work of a composer. Who knows what other composers could accomplish, if they were given more time and freedom in their job? If you ask me, the lack of truly great scores is mostly the industries fault - their way of controlling every single part of the art form in commercial terms.


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## Aenae

EpicDude said:


> What I love about Hans Zimmer is how he can make something simple sound beautiful and powerful, like Time or the new Planet Earth II main theme, it's so simple and so beautiful. Other composers can make complex scores but they don't make the audience feel anything, it's just music in the background. *Movies are not made for composers or musicians, people don't pay attention to orchestration or stuff like that, they just love being inspired and moved by a scene* and Hans Zimmer is extremely good at that, he makes you remember the music of that scene, he makes you feel the music. You don't replace Hans Zimmer by going backwards, to replace him you have to do what he does but better and that won't be easy.


But how people be inspired and moved by a scene if the orchestration or stuff like that is bad or terrible/wrong for the scene?


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## novaburst

EpicDude said:


> What I love about Hans Zimmer is how he can make something simple sound beautiful and powerful, like Time or the new Planet Earth II main theme, it's so simple and so beautiful. Other composers can make complex scores but they don't make the audience feel anything, it's just music in the background.



My feeling is that Hanz does complex orchestration over a basic chord theory one of his secrets, 

Need to kindly disergree with your other statement on other composers, you need to check out John Powell very complex and difficult arrangement, on the xmen phoenix rises theme perhaps one of the most exciting pieces of all time, Hanz or my J W have not achieved this type of composition
And I am yet to see or hear any one that has or can.


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## Parsifal666

novaburst said:


> My feeling is that Hanz does complex orchestration over a basic chord theory one of his secrets,
> 
> Need to kindly disergree with your other statement on other composers, you need to check out John Powell very complex and difficult arrangement, on the xmen phoenix rises theme perhaps one of the most exciting pieces of all time, Hanz or my J W have not achieved this type of composition
> And I am yet to see or hear any one that has or can.



I like some of Powell's work (though I personally preferred Ottman's work on Apocalypse in this case). But I'm sorry, Williams is Williams. I suggest going back through the latter's scores...you'll find far better work.


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## Rasmus Hartvig

Wes Antczak said:


> I believe Giacchino completed the score to Rogue One in six weeks. He got hired on to the project at the last minute in order to replace Alexandre Desplat.



Williams wrote and recorded A New Hope in six weeks. Just sayin'...


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## prodigalson

dcoscina said:


> You are correct sir. I enjoyed the score but let's be honest- Tim Simonic should get a lot of credit for that as well since he's a noted jazz composer



Sure, no doubt Tim Simonec had a big hand in helping to execute the style authentically but Giacchino still composed the score. I think 1) it's a mistake to think that a film composer gets to singlehandedly decide the overall approach to a score and so, sorta unfair to judge him/her on that point alone 2) saying something is "derivative" with negative connotations implies that it was attempting to pass itself off as otherwise. The Incredibles was deliberate pastiche, which is not the same thing. 

Also re: "It kills me that Giacchino and guys like Reznor have Oscars and Powell who's been delivering innovative works for decades still has none."

Not disputing your argument about Powell. I think he's absolutely brilliant and should have won the Oscar for HTTYD instead of The Social Network. That said, I dont think it's fair to put Giacchino in the same category as Reznor. They're doing totally different things. One is a real film composer to actively works at creating original score (whether you like it, notwithstanding) that supports and scores every frame of the film. The other creates long form, aseptic sound design suites, abstractly from the film that the director then chops up and does what he wants with.


----------



## Daryl

I think that Thomas Newman's lack of an Oscar is way more significant than the lack of anything for Powell.


----------



## prodigalson

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Williams wrote and recorded A New Hope in six weeks. Just sayin'...



I don't know this for sure but I actually read somewhere that Giacchino wrote it in 4 weeks. Also, Williams had the benefit of a locked cut in the 70s and none of the pressure of 40 years of cultural iconography


----------



## Ashermusic

JohnG said:


> That isn't how it works. Hans replaced the other guys by doing something different from what they were doing and that's what will be next -- something different. Nobody replaced John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith by "doing them" better -- who's going to do that?
> 
> Johann Johannsson is doing cool things, James Newton Howard continues to do cool things -- other guys too. There is always somebody thinking up a new approach.
> 
> And all that "orchestration or stuff" is important, to Hans as well as the rest of us.



Nobody "replaced Williams or Goldsmith" either, except in the minds perhaps of some chowderheads. Goldsmith continued to get a lot of work right until he died and Williams, even at his advanced age, gets offered gigs he turns down.


----------



## Parsifal666

Ashermusic said:


> Nobody "replaced Williams or Goldsmith" either, except in the minds perhaps of some chowderheads. Goldsmith continued to get a lot of work right until he died and Williams, even at his advanced age, gets offered gigs he turns down.



Extra kudos for the "chowderheads" remark. Those composers are to be compared more to superheroes like Mahler (though yes, that's where they pale...but precious few _*don't *_pale in that kind of comparison) than the other film composers of today. Though I adore many of this century's soundtracks, it's hard for me to hold them up against the above names. And not just because they've been around longer. I'm guessing (forgive me if I'm wrong) that Hans would probably agree. He's already cited Williams as the greatest living film composer; in fact, he first turned down the Man of Steel soundtrack, for fear of living in the shadow of both a soundtrack and composer he loves.

Fwiw, I sure am glad he ended up composing for Man of Steel, HUGE fan! \m/


----------



## Ashermusic

I have read where Hans has praised many, many composers, contemporaries and predecessors. He has been extremely clear in acknowledging that while he is proud of his work, he does not think that he is the only terrific film composer.

I will now stop reading this silly thread.


----------



## Tatu

The title on this thread seems a little bit click-baity... I wonder why.

I don't think Giacchino will replace Hans, or any other composer for that matter, but he will continue to get gigs that require his writing style. I just wish his recordings weren't so damn dry / dull sounding (now there's something Zimmer knows how to do).


----------



## Rasmus Hartvig

prodigalson said:


> I don't know this for sure but I actually read somewhere that Giacchino wrote it in 4 weeks. Also, Williams had the benefit of a locked cut in the 70s and none of the pressure of 40 years of cultural iconography



That is a fair point. Also, A New Hope was temped with tracks that Lucas had in mind all the way through the writing process - temp tracks that, as we all know, Williams often veered very close to.


----------



## Aenae

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> That is a fair point. Also, A New Hope was temped with tracks that Lucas had in mind all the way through the writing process - temp tracks that, as we all know, Williams often veered very close to.


Not really. A locked cut doesn't matter that much for Giacchino because he tends to write short motifs anyway. It does thus not matter anywhere near as much if his music gets chopped up to pieces, also since much of his music lacks that structure. Yes, Williams veered very close to the temp quite a few times in Star Wars, but these stretches/moments only last for a number of seconds. Giacchino just having 4 ½ weeks to write the score and turn in a mediocre score (at best, if we are generous) with only a few good moments (that don't last for that many seconds) just isn't cutting it. Nobody expected Giacchino to be Williams, but we expected at least a good score. It didn't even need to be great and I understand and respect if that is not possible given the lack of time, but a good score wouldn't have been unrealistic at all despite this. Many good and even great scores have been written in a month.


----------



## toddkedwards

Tatu said:


> The title on this thread seems a little bit click-baity... I wonder why.
> 
> I don't think Giacchino will replace Hans, or any other composer for that matter, but he will continue to get gigs that require his writing style. I just wish his recordings weren't so damn dry / dull sounding (now there's something Zimmer knows how to do).


It was not meant to be click baity, I just wanted to know people's opinion on the subject. It's seems recently that Giacchino is starting to be on a lot more scores and Hans not so much or it could just be clever marketing, or my perception.


----------



## Symfoniq

Tatu said:


> The title on this thread seems a little bit click-baity... I wonder why.
> 
> I don't think Giacchino will replace Hans, or any other composer for that matter, but he will continue to get gigs that require his writing style. I just wish his recordings weren't so damn dry / dull sounding (now there's something Zimmer knows how to do).



I completely agree. The first thing I thought when listening to the Rogue One soundtrack yesterday was that I wished Shawn Murphy or Alan Meyerson had engineered it. Giacchino's mixes of late seem to suck all the life and vibrancy out of the orchestra. Honestly, the mixes for his Medal of Honor video game scores sounded far better.


----------



## Tatu

Symfoniq said:


> I wished Shawn Murphy or Alan Meyerson had engineered it.


Yep! I don't know where they recorded the Rogue One score, but this was the one time he could've/should've done it the JW/LSO -way..


----------



## Wes Antczak

I did not realize that.



Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Williams wrote and recorded A New Hope in six weeks. Just sayin'...


----------



## rpaillot

Tatu said:


> Yep! I don't know where they recorded the Rogue One score, but this was the one time he could've/should've done it the JW/LSO -way..



Sorry , they recorded at Sony Scoring Stage with the hollywood symphony. Where
tons of scores from Horner, (maybe even Zimmer ? cant remember), Williams, have been recorded .. Just that...

If this doesnt sound good to you, then you may have grown up too much listening
to sampled orchestras...

Or simply doesnt like the way Giacchino likes his scores to sound.

I like more ambient mixes, but I understand why MG chooses to mix like that, he likes the old school way of mixing orchestral scores. More dry, more upfront.


----------



## Kaan Guner

I think I'm the only one who liked Giacchino's work on SW.


----------



## Wes Antczak

Tatu said:


> Yep! I don't know where they recorded the Rogue One score, but this was the one time he could've/should've done it the JW/LSO -way..



I'm not sure where the Rogue One score was recorded... will have to check my cd later today. But yeah, my *first* impression upon listening was:

1) Hans uses music to tell a story. The Rogue One score (again upon first impression) seems like somebody running from room to room and trying to tell unconnected little bits of story here and there.
2) I could hum and play any number of Hans' themes from various movies over the years.
3) Not so much Rogue One. The bits I could are actually parts where he quotes JW.
4) The production quality is not 10/10... maybe 8/10? I have yet to listen to it on my studio system.

Ultimately, none of this matters. What matters is how the music served the film. As long as it did that it did its job. Of the people I know who saw the film over the weekend none of them came back and said wow, did you hear that music?! But also and more importantly, none of them came back and said wow, what terrible music. They did not even seem to notice the music as such, which is probably how it should be as it was part of their whole experience.


----------



## Tatu

rpaillot said:


> Or simply doesnt like the way Giacchino likes his scores to sound.


This the reason.

I also prefer - sound wise - JW's scores post Return of the Jedi.


vs.



Just because to my ears there's an apparent jump in recording quality (to which that youtube one doesn't do justice).

It doesn't mean his scores were bad - on the contrary


----------



## novaburst

Parsifal666 said:


> Williams is Williams. I suggest going back through the latter's scores...you'll find far better work



Haha well I am so pleased we are all genuine with our music I love John Williams early composition, and I know a lot of you like his older stuff more than his new, 

I not quite sure why prefere his newest composition


----------



## Leon Willett

reddognoyz said:


> As soon as apples replace oranges



this comment is a ray of light in an otherwise silly thread :D


----------



## sherief83




----------



## dcoscina

prodigalson said:


> Sure, no doubt Tim Simonec had a big hand in helping to execute the style authentically but Giacchino still composed the score. I think 1) it's a mistake to think that a film composer gets to singlehandedly decide the overall approach to a score and so, sorta unfair to judge him/her on that point alone 2) saying something is "derivative" with negative connotations implies that it was attempting to pass itself off as otherwise. The Incredibles was deliberate pastiche, which is not the same thing.
> 
> Also re: "It kills me that Giacchino and guys like Reznor have Oscars and Powell who's been delivering innovative works for decades still has none."
> 
> Not disputing your argument about Powell. I think he's absolutely brilliant and should have won the Oscar for HTTYD instead of The Social Network. That said, I dont think it's fair to put Giacchino in the same category as Reznor. They're doing totally different things. One is a real film composer to actively works at creating original score (whether you like it, notwithstanding) that supports and scores every frame of the film. The other creates long form, aseptic sound design suites, abstractly from the film that the director then chops up and does what he wants with.


You make good points


----------



## dcoscina

Daryl said:


> I think that Thomas Newman's lack of an Oscar is way more significant than the lack of anything for Powell.


I think it's a shame that both of them haven't been recognized more. Newman could have won for Shawshank or American Beauty or any other number of scores he's composed. Powell's HHTYD was a spectacular score that hit everything it needed to in the film but also has such exquisite writing it works equally well on its own. 

But then again I think Zimmer should have taken another statuette home for Interstellar..


----------



## PaulComp

EpicDude said:


> To think in order to be a film composer all you need is to know how to make music is like to think in order to be a photographer all you need is a camera. Williams, Goldsmith, Powell etc... are extremely talented people, they are better than Hans when it comes to orchestration but *what makes Hans Zimmer better for the job is he understands music and the audience, he knows how to tell a story with music.* That Phoenix Rises Theme is indeed very complex and difficult but it's just complex and difficult music in the background, it doesn't tell you anything.


Williams most certainly understands music and the audience and knows how to tell a story with music!

I'm a huge Williams fan but I'm also a big fan of Hans as well. They each offer something unique when it comes to their music.


----------



## rpaillot

EpicDude said:


> To think in order to be a film composer all you need is to know how to make music is like to think in order to be a photographer all you need is a camera. Williams, Goldsmith, Powell etc... are extremely talented people, they are better than Hans when it comes to orchestration but *what makes Hans Zimmer better for the job is he understands music and the audience, he knows how to tell a story with music.* That Phoenix Rises Theme is indeed very complex and difficult but it's just complex and difficult music in the background, it doesn't tell you anything.



Sorry but it's kind of an urban legend what you say, telling that HZ is the only living composer who is a genius in story telling and the other composers you mention are just only good orchestrators and "music writer"

I'm sure even Hans wont agree with you that he is "better at story telling" than JW or Goldsmith, or Powell .

Williams is a TRUE story teller. Just re-watch movies like E.T , Indy, Jaws, Seven Years in Tibet, Schindler's List , Harry Potter, Jurassic Park
Beautifully crafted music. But it also works beautifully in the movies , you're instantly travelling in another world when listening to these film scores. You can just listen to the OSTs and "live the movie" .
These are just not "greatly orchestrated music"
Same thing for Goldsmith , Horner, and Powell ... and I wish he could score more "drama" and "serious" movies . We lack some non-animated film scores from John Powell :D


----------



## novaburst

EpicDude said:


> That Phoenix Rises Theme is indeed very complex and difficult but it's just complex and difficult music in the background, it doesn't tell you anything.



Haha I can tell you have not seen the last stand, to me it was the composition that made that movie, when the xmen did not have an answer to stop Xavier from getting murdered by his own xman Jean grey who turn into an uncontrollable mutant called the phoenix, 

The other xmen wolverine were pleading to stop crying out to the phoenix to stop the murder but there was nothing they could do, the music gave and unlocked such feeling and emotions it made you want to jump in the movie and help the xmen try and stop the phoenix, 

The piece certainly fits the movie, 

When you talk and make statement's like you have, it's like you have no understanding about music and it's role in movies.

Or that you don't want to here or give credit to none other but Hanz,


----------



## Parsifal666

Wow I should have taken off when Jay did lol!

Nevermind me, folks.


----------



## mwarsell

I think HZ should've scored Rogue One. Would've been interesting. I would've queued to get tickets. As he left the superhero train, why not catch the SW one.


----------



## mwarsell




----------



## Tatu

mwarsell said:


> I think HZ should've scored Rogue One


Oh you troll 

But seriously, he does have the know-how, tools and man power if it ever comes to that.


----------



## sherief83

I would actually be very interested in a Hans Zimmer Starwars. I would also tell him to not try orchestral take, Just filter the Main themes in his own unique Space Style. I would also want only Hans Zimmer to do it and no one else (that means no Zimmer drones as well)


----------



## Tatu

sherief83 said:


> Main themes in his own unique Space Style



I'd like it to have that structure, where there's smaller renditions of the main theme few here and there and then that big, all revealing end with an Inception/Time like masterpiece.


----------



## sherief83

Han's Agent needs to work over time to get that Han Solo Gig! and if they approach Giacchinno for it, I hope he thanks them from the bottom of his heart...but offers Zimmer's Phone lol.

Either way, I just feel that when it comes to orchestral takes of the williams harmonic language, no one will top Don davis, joel mcneely or even Mike Verta. They Understand the Jazz and not the triads and 16th notes trumpets. So I'd rather we get a new style instead of imitations or the 'I can do it too' takes.


----------



## dcoscina

sherief83 said:


> Han's Agent needs to work over time to get that Han Solo Gig! and if they approach Giacchinno for it, I hope he thanks them from the bottom of his heart...but offers Zimmer's Phone lol.
> 
> Either way, I just feel that when it comes to orchestral takes of the williams harmonic language, no one will top Don davis, joel mcneely or even Mike Verta. They Understand the Jazz and not the triads and 16th notes trumpets. So I'd rather we get a new style instead of imitations or the 'I can do it too' takes.


A Don Davis Star Wars would have been fabulous. I rather liked his Jurassic Park III. A lot more than Giacchino's Jurassic World that's for sure. 

I think you are on to something with this idea of harmony. Williams had a solid grounding in jazz and if you listen to his seminal 70s works, you will heard 2nd inversion voiced horn 7th chords which is totally a jazz thing. Also the way he shifts through various keys so effortlessly. It's a real pity that a lot of modern film composers seem to lack that ability to translate some jazz aspects into a popular format for directors and audiences alike the way Williams has. 

I agree not all film music has to be Pierre Boulez complex, but it would be nice to have a balance of simple stuff with harmonically more adventurous music once in a while. Whiplash is one of my fave current scores with the original music and some great standards mixed in. Tim Simonec is a god!


----------



## paoling

I think that Thomas Bergersen could have done an amazing Star Wars soundtrack...


----------



## dcoscina

paoling said:


> I think that Thomas Bergersen could have done an amazing Star Wars soundtrack...



It depends. His demos for EW are terrific but I don't care for his bombastic 2 steps from hell material- but I know the guy could deliver a terrific score. Also Mike Verta would have KILLED IT. I mean seriously.


----------



## Greg

I can't believe how much I dislike the Rogue One score. Really boring and poorly mixed / engineered. It lacks so much dimensionality & dynamic range. Especially if you compare to JNH's Maleficent, a high water mark for my ears.


----------



## Karma

Hans has his style - and he's great at it. But him doing a Star Wars film? *No no no!*

On the subject of Giacchino's score for Rogue One. I found it bland and frustrating. I really wish Desplat had stayed on.


----------



## Parsifal666

EpicDude said:


> I've never said Williams or Powell were bad, I'm not crazy! I said they are extremely talented people, of course they deserve credit for what they've done, I'm sure Hans knowledge developed in some way on the shoulders of Williams and other composers but I think Hans Zimmer understands better music and its role in movies today.



Oh dear, and to think I almost missed this!


----------



## dcoscina

Karmarghh said:


> Hans has his style - and he's great at it. But him doing a Star Wars film? *No no no!*
> 
> On the subject of Giacchino's score for Rogue One. I found it bland and frustrating. I really wish Desplat had stayed on.


Me too.


----------



## rottoy

James Newton Howard should have gotten a crack at scoring Rogue One.


----------



## novaburst

EpicDude said:


> think Hans Zimmer understands better music and its role in movies today.



I think your a wind up, haha what is is what is , you hear one thing another hears another thing, 

Some like Hanz and some like Hanz even more, he is a good composer for movies

But he is not the only one, 

Any way try to check out more composers.


----------



## mwarsell

The guy who rescored the trailer to the previous SW film would've been a good choice. But big studios don't take risks. Or not that often.


----------



## keepforest

Kaan Guner said:


> I think I'm the only one who liked Giacchino's work on SW.



You are not alone here. Considering how little time he had to complete the score his work is pretty good and I liked it.


----------



## Jacob Cadmus

I too felt that the Rogue One score sounded more like a phoned-in JW impression, which is a shame because Giacchino can most certainly do better. Case-in-point is Jupiter Ascending, which I know wasn't a great film, but the score was great and a testament to what MG is capable of when given a proper time frame.


----------



## dcoscina

Karmarghh said:


> Hans has his style - and he's great at it. But him doing a Star Wars film? *No no no!*
> 
> On the subject of Giacchino's score for Rogue One. I found it bland and frustrating. I really wish Desplat had stayed on.


I actually would have preferred Hans doing Rogue One to Giacchino. At least it would have been something different just like Desplat would have brought to the table (and both whom have a very distinct style!).

For me Giacchino stared out with a lot of promise but is churning out serviceable but unmemorable scores. His thematic writing is not very good and his harmonic sensibilities leave me cold. My 2 cents.


----------



## Tatu

I actually liked Giacchinos themes for Jurassic World quite a bit, but damn that movie failed at presenting them. If I remember correctly, his main theme was presented as the kids were running through what was pretty much a souvenir store -area and all the other scenes were cut short, except for the ending with T-Rex "ruling the world". Gone was that "Welcome to Jurassic Park" / invitation to a great adventure and that 'Hats off, gentlemen' -moment, which Williams delivered with his noble, hymn like rendition when we first see the Brachiosaurus in all her mighty.


----------



## Karma

dcoscina said:


> I actually would have preferred Hans doing Rogue One to Giacchino. At least it would have been something different just like Desplat would have brought to the table (and both whom have a very distinct style!).
> 
> For me Giacchino stared out with a lot of promise but is churning out serviceable but unmemorable scores. His thematic writing is not very good and his harmonic sensibilities leave me cold. My 2 cents.


I agree about Giacchino. However, I personally don't believe Hans wouldn't bring something different to Star Wars at all. I am a fan of his earlier stuff, but as of late I seriously believe he needs to take a step out of his comfort zone. I'm also left questioning how much of the work is actually done by Zimmer himself - or whether they are just themes passed down to another at Remote Control. I respect Hans a lot, and like I said he's great at what he does. But in all honesty, 'what he does' is very much starting to bore me of late. I can only speak for myself


----------



## patrick76

The answer to the title/question of this thread is "No".


----------



## InLight-Tone

Hasn't this thread died yet...


----------



## dcoscina

Karmarghh said:


> I agree about Giacchino. However, I personally don't believe Hans wouldn't bring something different to Star Wars at all. I am a fan of his earlier stuff, but as of late I seriously believe he needs to take a step out of his comfort zone. I'm also left questioning how much of the work is actually done by Zimmer himself - or whether they are just themes passed down to another at Remote Control. I respect Hans a lot, and like I said he's great at what he does. But in all honesty, 'what he does' is very much starting to bore me of late. I can only speak for myself


Don't agree. Listen to The Dark Knight Rises or Interstellar- they don't bare any relationship to his early works or even each other. Even within the Batman franchise Zimmer evolved his sound/ Batman Begins was more straight out action but with each subsequent sequel the score matured and developed. 

And I'm only speaking about his blockbuster fare. Listen to As Good As it Gets or The Little Prince. They are stylistically very dissimilar.


----------



## Studio E

I really REALLY hope that this isn't the case. It took Hans YEARS to figure out exactly how I like my coffee. I don't want to have to train someone all over again. Sigh.......


----------



## Karma

dcoscina said:


> Don't agree. Listen to The Dark Knight Rises or Interstellar- they don't bare any relationship to his early works or even each other. Even within the Batman franchise Zimmer evolved his sound/ Batman Begins was more straight out action but with each subsequent sequel the score matured and developed.
> 
> And I'm only speaking about his blockbuster fare. Listen to As Good As it Gets or The Little Prince. They are stylistically very dissimilar.


His earlier works are different to his later, I agree. But as I said, I much prefer his earlier stuff.


----------



## chillbot

I thought the movie theater I saw Rogue One in was missing a subwoofer or someone had turned the bass off. The music sounded so thin and treble-y to me throughout. Is it an orchestration thing or maybe someone just messed up the playback or a speaker had blown out.


----------



## JohnG

Tatu said:


> I actually liked Giacchinos themes for Jurassic World quite a bit, but damn that movie failed at presenting them. If I remember correctly, his main theme was presented as the kids were running through what was pretty much a souvenir store -area and all the other scenes were cut short, except for the ending with T-Rex "ruling the world". Gone was that "Welcome to Jurassic Park" / invitation to a great adventure and that 'Hats off, gentlemen' -moment, which Williams delivered with his noble, hymn like rendition when we first see the Brachiosaurus in all her mighty.



I think Tatu nails something crucial here -- one reason some people miss the "grand score" is that filmmakers rarely leave the crucial 30-50 seconds of establishing shots to give a chance at the score. 

Tatu's example of Jurassic Park is perfect, but far from alone. Try watching the opening of "Out of Africa" today; the shot of the train, winding across the landscape, feels mighty drawn out. The pace of the old Bond films, with one of John Barry's other flavours, also seems completely different.

Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, ET -- there are plenty of examples of "big music moments" planned and edited into JW's greatest moments by the directors. Yes, JW has been a gift, but either he had a great nose for choosing films that gave scope for his gifts, or the filmmakers were discerning enough to realise that they would do well to give it to him.

Another example -- I'm sure there are a lot but I'm writing in haste -- is film / score of "The Road to Perdition," one of Thomas Newman's genius scores that is played loudly enough to be heard and that is so conspicuous in the movie that it's like a major character, almost operatic in its place in the story-telling. A great movie and, I think, one of the best modern scores.

Probably that's enough, but would be interested in any thoughts on where HZ fits in to this idea.


----------



## Daryl

JohnG said:


> I think Tatu nails something crucial here -- one reason some people miss the "grand score" is that filmmakers rarely leave the crucial 30-50 seconds of establishing shots to give a chance at the score.



Whilst I think that you are right about that, I also remember many films from the past where the composer "bottled it" when given the space. I was taught that 90% of a film can be scored by any professional, but there is that 10% where something special is required that defines the great film composers. As you mention, JW, in his heyday, had that in spades. So many others fail as soon as the music is up-front, that I have to admit that I am quite often grateful that it is is quite well hidden by everything else going on in the movie.


----------



## Consona

• Regarding Hans Zimmer and Star Wars... The one thing, among many others, I like about Hans' scores is, they sound sooo different from each other. The Dark Knight has different sound palette and ideas than Man of Steel, than Sherlock Holmes, than Interstellar, etc, his scores really sound very differently.
On the other hand, and as much as I love Williams' scores and themes, which are just stellar, sometimes when I'm listening to his soundtracks and there's not that distinctive melody, it all sounds so similar that if I was not checking the title I would not know whether it's Superman or Star Wars or Indiana Jones score. This does not happen with Zimmer's scores since the sound texture is distinct. So I'd love to hear his take on SW stuff.

• As for Giachino, I'm going to see Rogue One for the first time tomorrow so I did not listen to the soundtrack yet, but I have to say, his Planet of the Apes and Doctor Strange score were such a missed opportunities. Jerry Goldsmith's score for the original was so fantastic I was hoping he'll try to do something interesting aswell, man, how disappointed I was after leaving the theatre. The same with Doctor Strange, the film itself was rather weak, but at least there was a huge opportunity to create some truly magical, other-worldly, other-dimensional music, but nope, nothing... Marvel fans love it anyway as I've noticed on the forums around the internet. 
I hope Hans will come back and join the DCEU/Warner Bros again for Justice League Dark and show people how make true magical mind-bending music from other spaces and times!   Not that you just add sitar and harpsichord to the orchestra like Giacchino did, man the score was so unimaginative. Maybe it was directors fault, I don't know, he made a pretty bland film anyway, but I'd really appreciate more thought and invention put into the process when you score something like that. The same thing with Apes...


----------



## tonaliszt

chillbot said:


> I thought the movie theater I saw Rogue One in was missing a subwoofer or someone had turned the bass off. The music sounded so thin and treble-y to me throughout. Is it an orchestration thing or maybe someone just messed up the playback or a speaker had blown out.


Interesting, I was just listening to Giacchino's score to Star Trek Beyond, and had similar thoughts about the mix. Really painful to listen to. 

The score to Rouge One was really bad. Giacchino's lost a lot of respect from me.


----------



## JohnG

Consona said:


> as much as I love Williams' scores and themes, which are just stellar, sometimes when I'm listening to his soundtracks and there's not that distinctive melody, it all sounds so similar that if I was not checking the title I would not know whether it's Superman or Star Wars or Indiana Jones score.



You might, in that case, enjoy Minority Report or Catch Me if You Can or some of JW's non-"big" scores. JW has so many voices but many don't catch the others.

HZ also gets pigeon-holed; some people dismiss him as "Mr. Superhero blam-blam" by people who haven't heard his other sides. 

Whether it's JW or HZ or JNH or anyone, there is a little bit of the generic to any action situation. It takes guys that good to bring something unique to it.


----------



## novaburst

Consona said:


> it all sounds so similar that if I was not checking the title I would not know whether it's Superman or Star Wars or Indiana Jones score. This does not happen with Zimmer's scores since the sound texture is distinct. So I'd love to hear his take on SW stuff.



And its statement like this that tell me your not to much into composing or music,

It is nice to hear meaning full discussion but when you say you cant tell the difference between JW superman if its star wars or not, what do you think that says about you.


----------



## dcoscina

JohnG said:


> I think Tatu nails something crucial here -- one reason some people miss the "grand score" is that filmmakers rarely leave the crucial 30-50 seconds of establishing shots to give a chance at the score.
> 
> Tatu's example of Jurassic Park is perfect, but far from alone. Try watching the opening of "Out of Africa" today; the shot of the train, winding across the landscape, feels mighty drawn out. The pace of the old Bond films, with one of John Barry's other flavours, also seems completely different.
> 
> Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, ET -- there are plenty of examples of "big music moments" planned and edited into JW's greatest moments by the directors. Yes, JW has been a gift, but either he had a great nose for choosing films that gave scope for his gifts, or the filmmakers were discerning enough to realise that they would do well to give it to him.
> 
> Another example -- I'm sure there are a lot but I'm writing in haste -- is film / score of "The Road to Perdition," one of Thomas Newman's genius scores that is played loudly enough to be heard and that is so conspicuous in the movie that it's like a major character, almost operatic in its place in the story-telling. A great movie and, I think, one of the best modern scores.
> 
> Probably that's enough, but would be interested in any thoughts on where HZ fits in to this idea.


That's nothing compared to the Leone films- especially Once Upon a Time in the West. Tarantino is actually one of the few directors who lets his films breath a bit. Same with PT Anderson


----------



## Parsifal666

novaburst said:


> And its statement like this that tell me your not to much into composing or music,
> 
> It is nice to hear meaning full discussion but when you say you cant tell the difference between JW superman if its star wars or not, what do you think that says about you.



This. It can portray a person as not being able to make distinctions in music...not a promising attribute for a composer.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

novaburst said:


> And its statement like this that tell me your not to much into composing or music,
> 
> It is nice to hear meaning full discussion but when you say you cant tell the difference between JW superman if its star wars or not, what do you think that says about you.



Well I am also on your side with the opinion, though I think the other guy didn´t want to dismiss williams in the case that he doesn´t recognize any differences in the thematic material of the williams scores in general but more at certain points "sometimes" and when there is no "distinct thematic melody" ongoing.

As I think that this is a reason of the composers typical handwriting, I agree to a certain extent that there are of course similiarities to find as this is not at all a downside. It just shows composers have their things what they like. E.g. J. Horner repurposed the klingon Theme from Star Trek II in some of his other movies. It is a normal thing. I do that as well, sometimes even on purpose.


----------



## Consona

novaburst said:


> And its statement like this that tell me your not to much into composing or music,
> 
> It is nice to hear meaning full discussion but when you say you cant tell the difference between JW superman if its star wars or not, what do you think that says about you.


It says that I don't listen to Williams that much so I can distinguish one score from the other when the well-known theme is not playing.

It's like with my friend who listens to the music like nearly non-stop, he likes game soundtracks and such. I played him some parts of JW's Star Wars score and some parts of Holst's Planets, he said that without a clue he would not be able to tell which thing he's listening to. Maybe it's just about a familiarity with the material. Maybe someone could tell me the same thing, that The Dark Knight and Man of Steel sound the same, just fast strings, blasting horns and thundering drums...  The thing is, I was listeting to the whole JW's Superman score for the first time and in places it sounded like I was listening to Indiana Jones or Star Wars.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Consona said:


> Maybe someone could tell me the same thing, that The Dark Knight and Man of Steel sound the same, just fast strings, blasting horns and thundering drums...



Believe me, I would say that to the marority of almost of any blockbuster score from nowadays.. But I can understand your point as well, when you are not used to Williams material, it could sound similiar to your ears. Its the same with me regarding all that Zimmer Sounds and their clones. But it is me: I don´t like it, I never will gain any love towards it, so I stick towards what I love to listen to.


----------



## Parsifal666

May I, with respect and the desire to help (honestly) recommend this amazing book?


----------



## Parsifal666

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Believe me, I would say that to the marority of almost of any blockbuster score from nowadays.. But I can understand your point as well, when you are not used to Williams material, it could sound similiar to your ears. Its the same with me regarding all that Zimmer Sounds and their clones.



Man of Steel is significantly different from Dark Knight Rises. Even regarding melodies and (perhaps most strikingly) the instrumentation. But yes, there is a lot of thud in both, they're superhero movies, dude.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Parsifal666 said:


> Man of Steel is significantly different from Dark Knight Rises. Even regarding melodies and (perhaps most strikingly) the instrumentation. But yes, there is a lot of thud in both, they're superhero movies, dude.



Yeah..believe me I am a total slouch with those soundtracks. I have this sickness and nervosity that my finger inherently wants to find the stand by button on the remote control.


----------



## Parsifal666

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yeah..believe me I am a total slouch with those soundtracks. I have this sickness and nervosity that my finger inherently wants to find the stand by button on the remote control.



No problem with that! We all like what we like.


----------



## novaburst

Consona said:


> The thing is, I was listeting to the whole JW's Superman score for the first time and in places it sounded like I was listening to Indiana Jones or Star Wars.



Well I am going to at least believe you have a pair of ears on your head, and still will say your statement is with out thought.

The very reason why we all go after certain composers is because we like the way they work the trumpets or horns, or strings and so on, yes composers will have the same vibe, mood, running through there compositions until the day they die, its why we like them.

you also should understand that there is also a learning process to listing to musical pieces your listing can develop, so there are many time when you will start to pick out certain harmony's, and patterns that you did not hear before in the same piece you may of been listening to for a while, and the piece can become like new.

I know there are a lot of Hans fan boys around, if that be the case then speak about him, you don't even listen to JW but yet your willing to quote him.

If Hans is your favourite composer then just speak about Hans, why in the world would you want to slam other composers in the process, it does not make sense.

You may as well just say I don't like JW and stop, but don't use Hans as an excuse to slam other composers as is the case of some of the post on this thread.

If its Hans you like then talk about Hans, if its JW or JP, or any other then talk about them.


----------



## Parsifal666

novaburst said:


> Well I am going to at least believe you have a pair of ears on your head, and still will say your statement is with out thought.
> 
> The very reason why we all go after certain composers is because we like the way they work the trumpets or horns, or strings and so on, yes composers will have the same vibe, mood, running through there compositions until the day they die, its why we like them.
> 
> you also should understand that there is also a learning process to listing to musical pieces your listing can develop, so there are many time when you will start to pick out certain harmony's, and patterns that you did not hear before in the same piece you may of been listening to for a while, and the piece can become like new.
> 
> I know there are a lot of Hans fan boys around, if that be the case then speak about him, you don't even listen to JW but yet your willing to quote him.
> 
> If Hans is your favourite composer then just speak about Hans, why in the world would you want to slam other composers in the process, it does not make sense.
> 
> You may as well just say I don't like JW and stop, but don't use Hans as an excuse to slam other composers as is the case of some of the post on this thread.
> 
> If its Hans you like then talk about Hans, if its JW or JP, or any other then talk about them.



They're both excellent imo.


----------



## Consona

novaburst said:


> If Hans is your favourite composer then just speak about Hans, why in the world would you want to slam other composers in the process, it does not make sense.
> 
> You may as well just say I don't like JW and stop, but don't use Hans as an excuse to slam other composers as is the case of some of the post on this thread.


What? Does this sound to you that I slam John Williams?:


Consona said:


> *I love Williams' scores and themes, which are just stellar*


Seriously? What are you trying to accomplish here?

And is saying that some pieces of John Williams sound similar slamming the composer? You've said yourself that composers have their ways of doing things and that's why we like them and suddenly I'm slamming someone for saying I find some of his compositions to be similar. Huh... WTF is going on here?


----------



## Parsifal666

What was this thread about again? Oh yeah...about five pages too long.


----------



## Karma

Let's not let this thread drift off into silly insults. Why can't there be a debate/discussion without someone making it personal?


----------



## sourcefor

I don't think you can slam ANY composer because most of the time they are just serving the picture and have little creative input! The director has the final say! John Williams has a style as does Hans zimmer, both different but serving the picture based on the directors needs and wants! Both Masters..it's NOT as easy as it looks!


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## robgb

Based on his Rogue One soundtrack, I certainly hope not.


----------



## robgb

Grizzlymv said:


> I don't think anybody else could have delivered a SW score as we know it, beside Williams himself.


I think Verta could've done it, and would have done it a lot better.


----------



## byzantium

Absolutely, I think modern filmmakers are usually not giving enough space to the composer/music to make that huge connection with the audience, like Hitchcock and Spielberg did - they understood the power of music married with powerful images and longer periods of time - they slowed the pace down, took out the dialogue and sound effects, weren't afraid of providing lots of time for music to work. We / the producers /directors / the public, have become more enamoured with the instant-gratification / sensationalism of the sound, rather than the more-delayed gratification of the score. Music needs a bit of time to work. The 'Zimmer formula/sound' if I can call it that, can serve the film perfectly well, and sound great, and for that to be commended, but for me personally it just doesn't resonate, and even gets boring, beyond the initial impressiveness, but it is perhaps more a modern trend of producer/director than composer? I think HZ influence and sound has helped many other composers who are perhaps harmonically different / more inventive(?), such as those that worked on Planet Earth 2, The Crown etc. I say this purely from a purely personal perspective of limited knowledge and viewership.



JohnG said:


> I think Tatu nails something crucial here -- one reason some people miss the "grand score" is that filmmakers rarely leave the crucial 30-50 seconds of establishing shots to give a chance at the score.
> 
> Tatu's example of Jurassic Park is perfect, but far from alone. Try watching the opening of "Out of Africa" today; the shot of the train, winding across the landscape, feels mighty drawn out. The pace of the old Bond films, with one of John Barry's other flavours, also seems completely different.
> 
> Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, ET -- there are plenty of examples of "big music moments" planned and edited into JW's greatest moments by the directors. Yes, JW has been a gift, but either he had a great nose for choosing films that gave scope for his gifts, or the filmmakers were discerning enough to realise that they would do well to give it to him.
> 
> Another example -- I'm sure there are a lot but I'm writing in haste -- is film / score of "The Road to Perdition," one of Thomas Newman's genius scores that is played loudly enough to be heard and that is so conspicuous in the movie that it's like a major character, almost operatic in its place in the story-telling. A great movie and, I think, one of the best modern scores.
> 
> Probably that's enough, but would be interested in any thoughts on where HZ fits in to this idea.


----------



## byzantium

PS Only saw Rogue One recently and if Giaccino did this in four or six weeks I think it is pretty impressive - it does the job well in the right style, with an enormous amount of image-synced music to be written in a ridiculously short space of time. Perhaps he had a huge team I don't know. I don't think it is realistic to expect life-long melodies and beautiful character-themes and story-arcs to appear out of that small space of time. And if those time restrictions are true, pretty shameful on the producers to provide such small amounts of time for such an enormous high-budget film, in comparison to the other departments.


----------



## tack

byzantium said:


> I don't think it is realistic to expect life-long melodies and beautiful character-themes and story-arcs to appear out of that small space of time.


Probably not, but I'd have settled for a theme for Jyn that I could remember after the credit roll.


----------



## Consona

Matt Reeves was hired to direct The Batman and since Giacchino worked on all his big films he'll most probably score the next Batman so he's literally replacing Hans Zimmer in this regard.



byzantium said:


> PS Only saw Rogue One recently and if Giaccino did this in four or six weeks I think it is pretty impressive - it does the job well in the right style, with an enormous amount of image-synced music to be written in a ridiculously short space of time. Perhaps he had a huge team I don't know. I don't think it is realistic to expect life-long melodies and beautiful character-themes and story-arcs to appear out of that small space of time. And if those time restrictions are true, pretty shameful on the producers to provide such small amounts of time for such an enormous high-budget film, in comparison to the other departments.


As it was said here previously:


Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Williams wrote and recorded A New Hope in six weeks. Just sayin'...


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

Consona said:


> he'll most probably score the next Batman



he won't.


----------



## Consona

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> he won't.


Why do you think so?


----------



## Rctec

Consona said:


> Why do you think so?


Oh, I hope he will! He's an outstanding talent, a really nice chap and its his turn. I'm interested in other things now - touring, Tv (planet earth and The Crown) and there are all sorts of interesting new technologies ive seen that will change the way we perceive music and will write music forever. But I love and Respect John Williams as one o the great composers - not just his film music, but pieces that stand on there own. I've said it before, but "Close encounters" is such a brilliant piece of 20th century concert music- well on par with anything in the concert halls, well on par with Richard Strauss and Vaugn- Williams. I come from a weird punk meets bach and Mahler history and settled on electronics. yes. I try to provoke and piss you all off...but just to challenge you to kick my musical arse and do better! Its 3;00 on a sunday, and I'm still busing with ideas...I want Michael to succeed - he deserved it! ...and I've withdrawn from the Oscars. I don't want to be in a competion against my friends and collegues. I want to be delighted and shaken by their brilliance, bowled over by there inventiveness.
Music is not a race. When I have players competing in the wrong way with each other during a recording, I get rid of the. But, My God! There is some unbelievable talent out there. Herbie Hancock coming in on "Hidden Figures" Sheila E. and Guthrie Govan on "BOSS BABY"... 
I'm Tired. excuse the rambling and the spelling! ...But I don't just write epic superhero stuff: look at "Thelma and Louise", "League of their own" "Hannibal", "Thin Red Line" and yes..."The Holliday" or "As good as it gets"


----------



## dcoscina

Rctec said:


> ...But I don't just write epic superhero stuff: look at "Thelma and Louise", "League of their own" "Hannibal", "Thin Red Line" and yes..."The Holliday" or "As good as it gets"


These are my favourites of yours as well as Interstellar and Last Samurai. And Rain Man of course! I agree that music shouldn't be a competition but rather a sharing of ideas and emotion that can transcend any man made barriers (nationalism, culture, politics, religion) and unite people on a very fundamental level. 

No one will ever replace Hans Zimmer just like they can't replace John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith or any other pivotal figure in the film scoring lineage.


----------



## dcoscina

robgb said:


> I think Verta could've done it, and would have done it a lot better.


Yup


----------



## Mundano

Rctec said:


> Oh, I hope he will! He's an outstanding talent, a really nice chap and its his turn. I'm interested in other things now - touring, Tv (planet earth and The Crown) and there are all sorts of interesting new technologies ive seen that will change the way we perceive music and will write music forever. But I love and Respect John Williams as one o the great composers - not just his film music, but pieces that stand on there own. I've said it before, but "Close encounters" is such a brilliant piece of 20th century concert music- well on par with anything in the concert halls, well on par with Richard Strauss and Vaugn- Williams. I come from a weird punk meets bach and Mahler history and settled on electronics. yes. I try to provoke and piss you all off...but just to challenge you to kick my musical arse and do better! Its 3;00 on a sunday, and I'm still busing with ideas...I want Michael to succeed - he deserved it! ...and I've withdrawn from the Oscars. I don't want to be in a competion against my friends and collegues. I want to be delighted and shaken by their brilliance, bowled over by there inventiveness.
> Music is not a race. When I have players competing in the wrong way with each other during a recording, I get rid of the. But, My God! There is some unbelievable talent out there. Herbie Hancock coming in on "Hidden Figures" Sheila E. and Guthrie Govan on "BOSS BABY"...
> I'm Tired. excuse the rambling and the spelling! ...But I don't just write epic superhero stuff: look at "Thelma and Louise", "League of their own" "Hannibal", "Thin Red Line" and yes..."The Holliday" or "As good as it gets"


Good morning Sir! For me "Interstellar" was mystic and sublime! Big fan of you here... Thank you for your music! Have a nice Sunday


----------



## Parsifal666

Rctec said:


> Oh, I hope he will! He's an outstanding talent, a really nice chap and its his turn. I'm interested in other things now - touring, Tv (planet earth and The Crown) and there are all sorts of interesting new technologies ive seen that will change the way we perceive music and will write music forever. But I love and Respect John Williams as one o the great composers - not just his film music, but pieces that stand on there own. I've said it before, but "Close encounters" is such a brilliant piece of 20th century concert music- well on par with anything in the concert halls, well on par with Richard Strauss and Vaugn- Williams. I come from a weird punk meets bach and Mahler history and settled on electronics. yes. I try to provoke and piss you all off...but just to challenge you to kick my musical arse and do better! Its 3;00 on a sunday, and I'm still busing with ideas...I want Michael to succeed - he deserved it! ...and I've withdrawn from the Oscars. I don't want to be in a competion against my friends and collegues. I want to be delighted and shaken by their brilliance, bowled over by there inventiveness.
> Music is not a race. When I have players competing in the wrong way with each other during a recording, I get rid of the. But, My God! There is some unbelievable talent out there. Herbie Hancock coming in on "Hidden Figures" Sheila E. and Guthrie Govan on "BOSS BABY"...
> I'm Tired. excuse the rambling and the spelling! ...But I don't just write epic superhero stuff: look at "Thelma and Louise", "League of their own" "Hannibal", "Thin Red Line" and yes..."The Holliday" or "As good as it gets"



"Close Encounters" is so wonderful!!! And so are you. Notice how Hans didn't mention his magical Oscar winner on that list...

And to be fair, he said right around the time of release of Batman vs Superman he was leaving superhero stuff alone for awhile. His influence in that genre certainly isn't going away anytime soon. I hope he's proud of what he did there, because I so love Dark Knight Rises and Man of Steel.


----------



## dcoscina

Karma said:


> I agree about Giacchino. However, I personally don't believe Hans wouldn't bring something different to Star Wars at all. I am a fan of his earlier stuff, but as of late I seriously believe he needs to take a step out of his comfort zone. I'm also left questioning how much of the work is actually done by Zimmer himself - or whether they are just themes passed down to another at Remote Control. I respect Hans a lot, and like I said he's great at what he does. But in all honesty, 'what he does' is very much starting to bore me of late. I can only speak for myself


That's interesting because it sounds to me like he's going different places stylistically. Interstellar didn't sound like The Dark Knight Rises which also had moved well beyond the BB material he began with in 2005.


----------



## Mundano

I think nobody can't replace somebody... Michael Giacchino would add more colours to the palette of talented composers. In the arts for me, there is no competition..


----------



## tav.one

I have been listening to & learning from 'The Last Samurai' from last 12 years, it has been my foundation as a composer.
If I get to choose just 1 album to listen to for the rest of my life, it will be 'The Last Samurai' soundtrack.

@Rctec I can't thank you enough for composing it, god bless you with all you desire.


----------



## Parsifal666

dcoscina said:


> That's interesting because it sounds to me like he's going different places stylistically. Interstellar didn't sound like The Dark Knight Rises which also had moved well beyond the BB material he began with in 2005.



I adore DKR. As much as I admire James Newton-Howard (terrific composer imo), I far prefer what Hans did on his own.

I know that a couple of folks here argue that Zimmer's output doesn't stand up well without the visuals...but the same was levelled against the guy in my avatar, and look how he ended up rating with the greats.


----------



## Consona

Giacchino is talented but some of his recent scores were lacklustre. That's my nobody's opinion.  When I compare Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes soundtrack to his Dawn, Williams' Star Wars soundtrack to his Rogue One, or huge potential of weird and bizzare Doctor Strange world to the music that ended up in the picture... And the best Star Trek stuff were re-used melodies from the past... I wish everybody the best and the muses to be with him, but I'm sceptical about Giacchino right now. I just hope he can prove me wrong.

That said I cannot wait for Junkie XL's Justice League score. And I'm really curios who will score the Aquaman movie.

@Rctec And even thought I know you've decided to leave superhero films scoring I hope maybe Man of Steel 2 will feel like an exciting challenge to you?  I know there are tons of talented guys and tons of superhero music yet you were able to make it feel fresh and unique again and I don't think anybody can replace you when it comes to scoring another Man of Steel, the ideas, the approach, the sound palette, those Zebra patches , we need you at the helm of the Superman sequel music!


----------



## Parsifal666

Consona said:


> Giacchino is talented but some of his recent scores were lacklustre. That's my nobody's opinion.  When I compare Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes soundtrack to his Dawn, Williams' Star Wars soundtrack to his Rogue One, or huge potential of weird and bizzare Doctor Strange world to the music that ended up in the picture... And the best Star Trek stuff were re-used melodies from the past... I wish everybody the best and the muses to be with him, but I'm sceptical about Giacchino right now. I just hope he can prove me wrong.



I think ANYONE might pale in comparison to Goldsmith and Williams' efforts there.

That said, I believe Zimmer was going to turn down Man of Steel due to Williams' iconic score hovering, but I personally far prefer the former's musical take on Superman (I know, sacrilege, smack my mama, etc). I'm a huge fan of all the above film composers btw.


----------



## Consona

Parsifal666 said:


> I think ANYONE might pale in comparison to Goldsmith and Williams' efforts there.



Yea, I know. But still, if you have such a precedent like the original Apes score, why don't to try to capitalize on that rather than making just another ordinary hollywood score.

And I think in every generation you have some really talented people so why should modern soundtracks pale in comparison to Goldsmith and Williams?


----------



## Polarity

Personally I don't think that Michael Giacchino did a bad work in Rogue One as someone posted here... 
I believe he did a very good work recalling the SW style and that he did what he was asked to do by production.
The only one score by him that I didn't like was the first of JJ Abrahams Star Trek reboots
(terrible main theme and weak score in general were my impressions at cinema),
otherwise I loved his work on Alias and Lost (the TV series), John Carter Of Mars anf others.


----------



## SymphonicSamples

When I first saw the title of the thread some time back my initial thought was, there was only one composer who would replace HZ, and that's was HZ himself, through reinvention as he's done already in his career, so I look forward with interest to his future musical paths.


----------



## Parsifal666

Consona said:


> And I think in every generation you have some really talented people so why should modern soundtracks pale in comparison to Goldsmith and Williams?



I think you're right.


----------



## sherief83

Rctec said:


> Oh, I hope he will! He's an outstanding talent, a really nice chap and its his turn. I'm interested in other things now - touring, Tv (planet earth and The Crown) and there are all sorts of interesting new technologies ive seen that will change the way we perceive music and will write music forever. But I love and Respect John Williams as one o the great composers - not just his film music, but pieces that stand on there own. I've said it before, but "Close encounters" is such a brilliant piece of 20th century concert music- well on par with anything in the concert halls, well on par with Richard Strauss and Vaugn- Williams. I come from a weird punk meets bach and Mahler history and settled on electronics. yes. I try to provoke and piss you all off...but just to challenge you to kick my musical arse and do better! Its 3;00 on a sunday, and I'm still busing with ideas...I want Michael to succeed - he deserved it! ...and I've withdrawn from the Oscars. I don't want to be in a competion against my friends and collegues. I want to be delighted and shaken by their brilliance, bowled over by there inventiveness.
> Music is not a race. When I have players competing in the wrong way with each other during a recording, I get rid of the. But, My God! There is some unbelievable talent out there. Herbie Hancock coming in on "Hidden Figures" Sheila E. and Guthrie Govan on "BOSS BABY"...
> I'm Tired. excuse the rambling and the spelling! ...But I don't just write epic superhero stuff: look at "Thelma and Louise", "League of their own" "Hannibal", "Thin Red Line" and yes..."The Holliday" or "As good as it gets"



What the....DUDE..I need you buzzed for the Han solo films! your my first pick for them! pretty please?


----------



## Fab

this is a silly thread title


----------



## dcoscina

Here is my take on Giacchino- from all reports, super nice guy, very personable, started in promotions (though he had music training early on as well) which I think he's been able to cull into a very successful career. I always say that his earlier work is what resonated with me the most, but if I listen back now, it's apparent I was enjoying his music the most when it was aping other composers' styles (Williams for MOD, Barry/Schifrin for The Incredibles). When he began to carve out his own style or sound, that's when I dropped off because he was employing much simpler harmonic vocabulary and even the way he put ideas together didn't sound as organic and developed as his contemporaries (not fair to compare him to Williams, Goldsmith and Horner). 

Obviously Hollywood is loving Giacchino now as they had with Hans Zimmer and before him JN Howard, Goldenthal and Elfman, and before them Williams, Barry, Goldsmith, Horner, etc. How Gia's music style is perceived really comes down to personal preference, but I will say that at least Hans had/has a distinct style of his own- he never aped another composer. As I get older and move away from what I think film music should be, I have embraced and truly enjoy quite a lot of Zimmer's music. Interstellar is in my current Top 10 favourite scores and gets a lot of plays on my ipod.

Conversely, I have sold a lot of my Giacchino CDs because his music just doesn't do anything for me. For big orchestral music, I turn to Shostakovich who, let's be honest, wrote at a level most mortals cannot, especially with crazy time frames and ridiculous requests from directors nowadays. Or else, I will turn to The Matrix by Don Davis who employed a really interesting collision of various styles and idioms that made an indelible music impression. Those brass alternating chords are enough to recall the heroics of Neo and Trinity, just like the horn minor third will now always remind me of The Dark Knight (gotta admit I didn't think much of it in 2005 but you know what? It actually fits the mood of the franchise PERFECTLY- I couldn't think of TDK without it). It's not always about how many notes you can write but which notes and how they are married to a story, characters or imagery. Zimmer always finds a way of communicating this- as much as his music works on a very emotional level, it's clear there's a huge degree of cerebral process that goes into the crafting of the score. 

Will I have this same epiphony about Giacchino down the line? Probably not. I will say this- I dearly wish John Powell would do more big name projects. After hearing his recent concert works, which are utterly fantastic, I can only imagine what a Rogue One would have sounded like had he done the music. but it sounds like he's more or less moved away from film scoring and the freedom he enjoys with concert writing has clearly revealed how bloody talented and skilled I always knew him to be. Plus his interviews are absolutely entertaining. 

My apologies for the rambling. I don't bear Gia any ill will. I'm glad he's getting all these assignments but as a film score fan, diversity of style and sound is something I always have enjoyed. Too much of anything isn't good, even if it's John Williams. Contrast and variety keeps everything interesting.


----------



## Mundano

dcoscina said:


> The Matrix by Don Davis who employed a really interesting collision of various styles and idioms that made an indelible music impression. Those brass alternating chords are enough to recall the heroics of Neo and Trinity



Just to remind us all that this score is much based on *Philip Glass* Koyanisqatsi SUPERB score!!! (my favourite)


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

Consona said:


> Why do you think so?



Big studio movie. Directors aren't the only decision makers.


----------



## Rasmus Hartvig

dcoscina said:


> The Matrix by Don Davis who employed a really interesting collision of various styles and idioms that made an indelible music impression.





Mundano said:


> Just to remind us all that this score is much based on *Philip Glass* Koyanisqatsi SUPERB score!!! (my favourite)



Not to forget the major influence of John Adams' Harmonilehre and Short Ride in a Fast Machine. That said, The Matrix score gets talked WAY to little about around these parts. It's such a brilliant way Davis makes the movie sound otherworldly and tense, not by adding a bunch of synthetic stuff (he also does that at times), but by tapping into 20th century musical idioms that rarely gets brandished in modern blockbusters.


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## jononotbono

Rctec said:


> I'm interested in other things now - touring, Tv (planet earth and The Crown) and there are all sorts of interesting new technologies ive seen that will change the way we perceive music and will write music forever.



Are you giving up writing for film then? Surely not! Do you think you would venture into Video Games more (I know you did COD MW2) as it's hugely creative. I'm guessing the interest in TV is because of how much story telling can happen over hundreds of hours?


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## Consona

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Big studio movie. Directors aren't the only decision makers.


But he's worked with the director before and he's made soundtracks for Star Wars and Star Trek and Spider-man and Mission Impossible and... and he's an Academy Award winner.


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## ghostnote

Rctec said:


> yes. I try to provoke and piss you all off..


I knew it!


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## NoamL

Rctec said:


> . I come from a weird punk meets Bach and Mahler history and settled on electronics.



Hi Hans, this is as good an opportunity as any to ask you - do you think your harmonic language is particularly "German" or influenced by studying German composers?

There seems to be a big strand of this in your music. I listened to The Crown main title and thought "No way this is anybody but HZ!" and then it made me think of other examples: Jamie Foxx's clarinet theme in Spiderman 2... the big finale at the end of Jack Sparrow's suite, over the D pedal... also in Dead Man's Chest when the Kraken is sneaking up on Jack... and certainly, the "European tensions" theme from Game Of Shadows...

Perhaps I am wrongly associating very "functional" minor-tonality writing with the concept of German-ness?

This kind of stern, momentum-filled writing seems to be always beneath the surface of some of your scores, sort of like how the jazz influence is always there in JW's writing.


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## Dominik Raab

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Not to forget the major influence of John Adams' Harmonilehre



I've never heard of John Adams before. Thanks for this! His _Harmonielehre _is definitely interesting, especially in the context of being influential for _The Matrix_!


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## Allen Constantine

Rctec said:


> I'm Tired. excuse the rambling and the spelling! ...But I don't just write epic superhero stuff: look at "Thelma and Louise", "League of their own" "Hannibal", "Thin Red Line" and yes..."The Holliday" or "As good as it gets"



Finally! I always wanted to see you post this!!! Thank You, Sir!


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## Valérie_D

Rctec said:


> ... Herbie Hancock coming in on "Hidden Figures"



I did not see much comments on Hidden Figures since it's release but the music and the film was thrilling, so inspiring!


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## Parsifal666

AllenConstantine said:


> Finally! I always wanted to see you post this!!! Thank You, Sir!



And he even left out his Oscar winner 

I love the great majority of Hans' music, but I just have a special place for his reboot of Superman. Special because I've always dreamed of flying, and Hans' "Flight" propelled my favorite scene in movie history.

I love the Williams score, grew up loving it. But I think Hans might have trumped that.


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## Allen Constantine

Parsifal666 said:


> I love the Williams score, grew up loving it. But I think Hans might have trumped that.



+1


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## ghostnote

NoamL said:


> This kind of stern, momentum-filled writing seems to be always beneath the surface of some of your scores, sort of like how the jazz influence is always there in JW's writing.


It's personality. A musical voice is made out of two big factors. A mixture of who you are and what your influences were. And by that I mean all influences, not just the musical ones.

I truly believe that nobody can fully understand Chopin's music without understanding the Polish soul, same goes for Beethoven and his background in Germany, Rachmaninov and Russia etc.

Today the curtural differences seem to fade because of the permanent medial appearence by todays musical zeitgeist.

William's obliging and humble melodic writing is a result of his personality. Something that feels more like a contribution. Howards writing is more manipulative and reflective. Giacchinos work has his own tempo, which I find very fitting in mystery and drama. Hans uses his way of drama which is grounded on a more direct, confident, but also religeous way. It's personality. Sometimes more, sometimes less.


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## Dave Connor

Rctec said:


> ... there are all sorts of interesting new technologies ive seen that will change the way we perceive music and will write music forever.


Anything you can talk about?


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## Puzzlefactory

toddkedwards said:


> Are we starting to dawn a new era with film scores? We've been under the domination of Hans Zimmer film scores for at least the past 7-10 years. Could we say we are starting to see this slip and Giacchino will be taking that spot?
> 
> What do you think this will do for film music, since Giacchino does tend to do more Golden erea (Style) film scores, do you think we could see a return to form (I'm not sure about stucture as Mike Verta always says!) or will we still continue down the Hybrid/Zimmer approach?
> 
> I'm curious to hear all of your opinions and thoughts and let's have a respectful discussion with your thoughts and opinions. This is not intended to bash one composer or the other, because I love both Zimmer and Giacchino.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Todd K. Edwards




I don't think its fair to say Hans has dominated. There are so many films released every year and Hans hasn't done them all. I think there are just a lot of people writing big bombastic orchestral film scores (and trailers) and Hans (rightly or wrongly) gets credited for that style.


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## dcoscina

Parsifal666 said:


> And he even left out his Oscar winner
> 
> I love the great majority of Hans' music, but I just have a special place for his reboot of Superman. Special because I've always dreamed of flying, and Hans' "Flight" propelled my favorite scene in movie history.
> 
> I love the Williams score, grew up loving it. But I think Hans might have trumped that.


For me, Williams Superman is as well written as any major work by any composer of the 20th century. There's so much breadth of style within that single film from the quasi religious sonorities of Krypton to the pandiatonicism of Smallville to the muscular heroic writing of Metropolis along with the Prokofiev like bumbling antics of Otis. And amazingly Williams ties everything together beautifully. To my mind, it's his finest score and the best film score ever written because it's both beautifully written music that also functions incredibly well with the narrative.

That said, Man of Steel was a very different film and the dramatic parts were very nicely scored by HZ. The biggest problem with MOS lies in the film and not the score for me. It's largely one protracted action sequence and didn't fully develop the character as well as it could have. The best scene in the whole film was the bar sequence. It felt real and was scored so poignantly. It wasn't the composers fault that the film was such a mess. 

That said, I'm glad Hans scored it over Giacchino. We would have just gotten second rate Williams I think....


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## Parsifal666

dcoscina said:


> For me, Williams Superman is as well written as any major work by any composer of the 20th century. There's so much breadth of style within that single film from the quasi religious sonorities of Krypton to the pandiatonicism of Smallville to the muscular heroic writing of Metropolis along with the Prokofiev like bumbling antics of Otis. And amazingly Williams ties everything together beautifully. To my mind, it's his finest score and the best film score ever written because it's both beautifully written music that also functions incredibly well with the narrative.
> 
> That said, Man of Steel was a very different film and the dramatic parts were very nicely scored by HZ. The biggest problem with MOS lies in the film and not the score for me. It's largely one protracted action sequence and didn't fully develop the character as well as it could have. The best scene in the whole film was the bar sequence. It felt real and was scored so poignantly. It wasn't the composers fault that the film was such a mess.
> 
> That said, I'm glad Hans scored it over Giacchino. We would have just gotten second rate Williams I think....



Your criticisms re the film are well grounded and shared by many. I see through the eyes of love; I thought the MoS action sequences were state of the art and terrific, and quite a lot of that had to do with the soundtrack. Try listening to Terraforming (truly brilliant, hybrid scoring) on its own, apart from the movie. Who _wouldn't_ be roused by that track? Coupled with the movie scenes it's _thunderously_ powerful, but on its own the immediacy/urgency and drama could be seen by some as high Wagner of the 21st century. You could say the same for "Flight". Those two tracks alone are examples of how Hans' scores work as thrilling music outside the score, and imo (along with countless other, fine instances that don't necessarily have anything to do with superheroes) underscore his status as a great film composer imo...

perhaps not quite Williams' or Goldsmith's level....but who _*is*_ these days? Probably only the people outside of film: like Penderecki, Phillip Glass (I'm sure I'm forgetting too many, apologies).


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## Parsifal666

I think at this point the idea of Zimmer not being a great film composer is silly. His influence in this century is too obvious to ignore. To say he's not Williams or Goldsmith is not to take away that one, completely obvious, fact. I don't think anyone's jealousy and conscientiously applied cantankerousness is going to knocking those men off their respective thrones.

I could be wrong.


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## dcoscina

I think it's silly comparing HZ to Williams or comparing Williams to Shostakovich or Stravinsky. Each composer has their own style and have made contributions to western music accordingly. The worst thing is to not have a style and simply copy others verbatim. HZ forged a style in the late 90s that garnered lots of attention from filmmakers in Hollywood and as such a lot of composers either tried to copy his style or were asked to do so from their employer aka filmmakers.


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## dcoscina

Parsifal666 said:


> Your criticisms re the film are well grounded and shared by many. I see through the eyes of love; I thought the MoS action sequences were state of the art and terrific, and quite a lot of that had to do with the soundtrack. Try listening to Terraforming (truly brilliant, hybrid scoring) on its own, apart from the movie. Who _wouldn't_ be roused by that track? Coupled with the movie scenes it's _thunderously_ powerful, but on its own the immediacy/urgency and drama could be seen by some as high Wagner of the 21st century. You could say the same for "Flight". Those two tracks alone are examples of how Hans' scores work as thrilling music outside the score, and imo (along with countless other, fine instances that don't necessarily have anything to do with superheroes) underscore his status as a great film composer imo...
> 
> perhaps not quite Williams' or Goldsmith's level....but who _*is*_ these days? Probably only the people outside of film: like Penderecki, Phillip Glass (I'm sure I'm forgetting too many, apologies).




I will admit that MOS isn't one of my favourite HZ scores. Mind you, when I watched the Making of the score, and saw those sessions with just the orchestra laying down the tracks, I was very interested. I liked the raw orchestra stuff and even asked if there'd be any chance of a CD or digital release of those raw tracks because they sounded very cool.

I'd just say that some aspects of the writing don't resonate with my personal music tastes. I like electronics (I've been using synths since 1985) so it's not that- it's more to do with what lights up my ears. Interstellar just naturally does that for me whether it's the melody, harmony or use of different instruments. MOS does that in places but not as a whole like some of HZ other works.


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## Parsifal666

Fair enough. We all like what we like, that's what makes things interesting, right? 

I love the Interstellar soundtrack. It might help to understand that I've been a comics fan all my life, and was a little boy going to see the original Reeve Superman when it came out in the late 70s. So those movies probably mean a lot more to me just for that.

However, I have an extensive cd collection of Hans' work, so it's not just his work there that I love.


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## dcoscina

Parsifal666 said:


> Fair enough. We all like what we like, that's what makes things interesting, right?
> 
> I love the Interstellar soundtrack. It might help to understand that I've been a comics fan all my life, and was a little boy going to see the original Reeve Superman when it came out in the late 70s. So those movies probably mean a lot more to me just for that.
> 
> However, I have an extensive cd collection of Hans' work, so it's not just his work there that I love.


Interesting- I was also an avid comic collector in my youth (around the late 70s through to mid 80s when I switched from comics to synth purchases).


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## Dave Connor

Concerning the thread title, the problem with the idea of _replacing _HZ or JW or JG (Goldsmith) is that these guys are their own _school _of film scoring. We've been spoiled by their signature sounds and singular abilities even though they all have varied scores and far more than a single sound. Scoring a Star Wars film with the same instrumentation and approach as JW is an impossible assignment for anyone really. I think people wanting to see HZ's take on it are acknowledging that difficulty while also thinking that his ability in the _Epic_ might be a perfect updating of the franchise. As talented as Giacchino is, following any of these guys is a tall order for anyone. Goldenthal pulled it off pretty darn well with Batman (following Elfman) so it can be done. The best hope is usually that the _film _itself takes a new direction allowing for a new sound or approach. Shaffner/Goldsmith, Lucas/Williams and Nolan/Zimmer are hard acts to follow no matter how you look at it and no matter who's doing the following. Edit: Hans' enthusiasm recommendation and support of Giacchino is exemplary, and something I hope we all share.


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## gjelul

Like it or not, Zimmer is an institution and a style now. There is no other modern film composer working today to have been copied or referenced more than Zimmer. Just take a good look at the biggest films out there, if not Zimmer, all Zimmer sound alike or Zimmer camp people are the writers. Even his musicians are writing scores now, in the same style....

Giachino is making a big splash for himself with very high profile projects, but not he's not even near the position to have an impact like Zimmer has in the industry. Giachino seems to have understood very well the mechanics and the politics of film scoring today, but when it comes to style and writing, it is not memorable and he always plays too safe imo. His Star Trek and Star Wars scores are not even close to what Jerry / John have done. Big shoes to fill, but still....


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## NoamL

gjelul said:


> Like it or not, Zimmer is an institution and a style now. There is no other modern film composer working today to have been copied or referenced more than Zimmer. Just take a good look at the biggest films out there, if not Zimmer, all Zimmer sound alike or Zimmer camp people are the writers. Even his musicians are writing scores now, in the same style....



Hm I only partially agree with this. Because I don't think RCP/Bleeding Fingers is 1:1 with "Zimmer's style."

For example do you think Pacific Rim is a "Zimmer's style" or "Zimmer soundalike" score?

or:

Game Of Thrones
Despicable Me
Mad Max Fury Road
Big Hero Six
The Martian

etc.

It is true that RCP alums are getting a ton of work



gjelul said:


> Giachino seems to have understood very well the mechanics and the politics of film scoring today, but when it comes to style and writing, it is not memorable and he always plays too safe imo.



Check out _*L O S T*_, it's audacious and memorable writing. It really elevates the show too - the character themes especially those for Locke, Ben, Juliet, and some other characters, successfully shade and color what would otherwise be some pretty 1D character writing. Some of the best scenes in the show (The Constant, the Dharmacide, Ben turning the wheel, the Season 4 Freighter finale) are remembered for the score.

It was kind of the Game Of Thrones of the 2000s.

All of his Pixar scores are also really good, memorable, quality writing imo.


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## novaburst

dcoscina said:


> The worst thing is to not have a style and simply copy others



÷1 .....I would have thought it would be every composers aim to develop there own style of music, there could be nothing worse than scoring a movie and every one saying that was Hanz score and it turned out to be some one elses,

Copying or cloning some ones score only puts you in a box, and all that learning, studies, would have been for nothing, 

If the case is that movie makers are asking the score to be like Hanz, perhaps it's because they have not heard any new style that surpasses it, or grabs there attention.

If there was an earthquake in the middle of the U S it would get the attention of the whole world, becuase that sort of thing just does not happen.

Could this be the case with scoring, we have thousands of composers trying to be like Hanz or someone else and not there self.

Yes we do pick up some kind of influence from our favourite composers, and I am quite certain Hanz did too but is it not an example from Hanz that he just wanted to do something different and be his self this is what made him great but is that not the example we should follow the example of self development.


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## gjelul

NoamL said:


> Hm I only partially agree with this. Because I don't think RCP/Bleeding Fingers is 1:1 with "Zimmer's style."
> 
> For example do you think Pacific Rim is a "Zimmer's style" or "Zimmer soundalike" score?
> 
> or:
> 
> Game Of Thrones
> Despicable Me
> Mad Max Fury Road
> Big Hero Six
> The Martian
> 
> etc.
> 
> It is true that RCP alums are getting a ton of work
> 
> 
> 
> Check out _*L O S T*_, it's audacious and memorable writing. It really elevates the show too - the character themes especially those for Locke, Ben, Juliet, and some other characters, successfully shade and color what would otherwise be some pretty 1D character writing. Some of the best scenes in the show (The Constant, the Dharmacide, Ben turning the wheel, the Season 4 Freighter finale) are remembered for the score.
> 
> It was kind of the Game Of Thrones of the 2000s.
> 
> All of his Pixar scores are also really good, memorable, quality writing imo.





ok


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## dcoscina

novaburst said:


> ÷1 .....I would have thought it would be every composers aim to develop there own style of music, there could be nothing worse than scoring a movie and every one saying that was Hanz score and it turned out to be some one elses,
> 
> Copying or cloning some ones score only puts you in a box, and all that learning, studies, would have been for nothing,
> 
> If the case is that movie makers are asking the score to be like Hanz, perhaps it's because they have not heard any new style that surpasses it, or grabs there attention.
> 
> If there was an earthquake in the middle of the U S it would get the attention of the whole world, becuase that sort of thing just does not happen.
> 
> Could this be the case with scoring, we have thousands of composers trying to be like Hanz or someone else and not there self.
> 
> Yes we do pick up some kind of influence from our favourite composers, and I am quite certain Hanz did too but is it not an example from Hanz that he just wanted to do something different and be his self this is what made him great but is that not the example we should follow the example of self development.


I think it takes a bit of ego to push your style through even when the dictate may be copy the temp. The skill comes into play when you can give them what they want but still imbue the music with your own personal stamp. It might be minute but if the aim is to do that then you should be ok.


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## Dave Connor

gjelul said:


> Giachino… when it comes to style and writing, it is not memorable and he always plays too safe imo. His Star Trek and Star Wars scores are not even close to what Jerry / John have done. Big shoes to fill, but still....


 I think Giacchino _does _have a distinctive style that is recognizable (and writes some really beautiful stuff). When I said he was having a hard time establishing himself in the large orchestral score genre, I meant it as you did, _in comparison to those who have set the standard _and as the thread title suggests, _able to replace Hans Zimmer. _I took that as, _entering the pantheon of great thematic composers _such as Korngold, Rozsa, Goldsmith, Williams and of course Hans. All irreplaceable by any measure which makes the task of actually replacing them a difficult one. In the case of Rogue One, MG had only three weeks so he should to be commended for just delivering a score to such a film. If he did particularly well in that amount of time, that is a miracle very few composers could ever pull off.


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## gjelul

In the case of Rogue One, MG had only three weeks so he should to be commended for just delivering a score to such a film. If he did particularly well in that amount of time, that is a miracle very few composers could ever pull off.[/QUOTE]

No body wants to hear how many days you have to write, ultimately what matters is what's on the screen.
Horner had less than 3 weeks to re-do Troy..... JN Howard had very little time to re-do King Kong.

As for the golden age references + Zimmer comparison with MG, imo, there is a huge gap.... at least as it stands at the moment.


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## Dave Connor

gjelul said:


> In the case of Rogue One, MG had only three weeks so he should to be commended for just delivering a score to such a film. If he did particularly well in that amount of time, that is a miracle very few composers could ever pull off.
> 
> Nobody wants to hear how many days you have to write, ultimately what matters is what's on the screen.
> Horner had less than 3 weeks to re-do Troy..... JN Howard had very little time to re-do King Kong.
> 
> As for the golden age references + Zimmer comparison with MG, imo, there is a huge gap.... at least as it stands at the moment.


Well, nobody wants to follow a Star Wars score that John Williams originally had several months to do in a few weeks I would think. Very tall order to say the least. The replacement scores you mention are very good efforts but do not have for their predecessor the most iconic scores in film history - laced with equally well known themes hardly found in the Classical Operatic literature.


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## gjelul

Well, nobody wants to follow a Star Wars score that John Williams originally had several months to do in a few weeks I would think. Very tall order to say the least.[/QUOTE]

No one is sayng to follow J Williams. Zimmer didn't follow anyone in his Superman score.
The question is, do you remember anything from the score that MG did for Rogue One? I doubt it. Do you remember anything from his Star Trek score? I doubt it. 
Both cases were missed opportunities, imo. I am simply referring to what's on the screen.
When it comes to getting it done and especially to understanding the politics of the business GM has it down to perfection.

The replacement scores you mention are very good efforts but do not have for their predecessor the most iconic scores in film history - laced with equally well known themes hardly found in the Classical Operatic literature.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly my point - thank you for agreeing with me. Desplat is replaced by MG, and he, as Horner and JN Howard has done before him, got it done and delivered it. Great... but the 'music style' is not the achievement here, meeting a crazy deadline is.


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## Dave Connor

Thank you for agreeing with me on what I wrote on page one of this thread.


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## Nyaouli

Rctec said:


> and there are all sorts of interesting new technologies ive seen that will change the way we perceive music and will write music forever



Sir, would you please tell a little more about this?


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## Fab

Nyaouli said:


> Sir, would you please tell a little more about this?



I must admit, I too would like to know a few examples of which you speak, good sir.


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## toddkedwards

I think this thread got out of hand! lol 

@Rctec I did not want this to turn into a comparison based on who's better, it was just a question. I hope I did not disrespect you?


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## Simon Ravn

Bait re-laid


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## Karma

Uh oh... dangerous bump.


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## rottoy

toddkedwards said:


> I think this thread got out of hand! lol
> 
> @Rctec I did not want this to turn into a comparison based on who's better, it was just a question. I hope I did not disrespect you?


I honestly think dear Hans is too busy buttering up directors with his charisma to care about this thread.


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