# Is it legal to release or sell samples made using VSTs you bought?



## BennyHendel

What's the legality of releasing on Splice a loop made using a Spitfire library? Does everything have to be made using free and stock libraries? What if the instrument has been changed or distorted?


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## Bman70

I suspect most of the libraries have an approach similar to East West, which clearly states that no derivative sounds can be made from their sounds for sale to the pubic. You can make preset libraries to sell, but those are only for use in the original software.

Edit: A preset library is really just someone becoming familiar with the software, and tweaking it in pleasing ways, then selling their expertise so to speak. However, I don't think any company can really tell if a sound has been distorted and synthed beyond recognition. I imagine there are some selling samples made this way, and likely won't be found out, and then it's just a personal values question.


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## Casey Edwards

You absolutely can not use someone else's source material to make profit in that manner. It's a part of every EULA for all the virtual instruments and other sound packs I've seen. It doesn't matter how different you make it through processing. If you want to make and sell sounds, loops, whatever, you have to first start with capturing your own source material and building a library out of that.


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## zvenx

Hmmm.. Does it not in general only apply to vsti's that use samples vs. algorithms?
(clearly you can't sample and make a loop out of someone else's patches)

rsp


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## Levon

Their EULA is very clear (point 5)



Spitfire Audio — Spitfire Audio End User License Agreement


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## RonOrchComp

Grey area.

You are not allowed to use a dev's sample content to make another sample library - I think that's clear to everyone. 

But a Splice pack? I am sure the devs would all argue no, but is it really no?

You are allowed to use a dev's sample content to make a musical composition, that can be sold to a TV Production Co., to an ad agency, to a film maker, etc. But you are disallowed from selling that musical composition to another composer? Not sure how much sense that makes, or if that's even legal.


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## Bman70

RonOrchComp said:


> Grey area.
> 
> You are not allowed to use a dev's sample content to make another sample library - I think that's clear to everyone.
> 
> But a Splice pack? I am sure the devs would all argue no, but is it really no?
> 
> You are allowed to use a dev's sample content to make a musical composition, that can be sold to a TV Production Co., to an ad agency, to a film maker, etc. But you are disallowed from selling that musical composition to another composer? Not sure how much sense that makes, or if that's even legal.



Well yes, that's exactly the distinction the licensing makes: Compositions, songs, soundtracks, are a unique product that people can't use as an instrument (unless they sample it against copyright). Selling something that people can put in their DAWS and use as an instrument becomes apparently a competition with the original sample maker... I assume, based on their nervousness about it.


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## RonOrchComp

Bman70 said:


> Selling something that people can put in their DAWS and use as an instrument becomes apparently a competition with the original sample maker... I assume, based on their nervousness about it.



Yes - that's a pretty good argument the other way. Which is why I say it's a grey area. I don't think that this sit. has ever seen the inside of a courtroom, has it?

Oh, and I don't understand what _unless they sample it against copyright_ means


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## nolotrippen

It's illegal


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## Bman70

RonOrchComp said:


> Yes - that's a pretty good argument the other way. Which is why I say it's a grey area. I don't think that this sit. has ever seen the inside of a courtroom, has it?
> 
> Oh, and I don't understand what _unless they sample it against copyright_ means



It's not legal to sample bits of a song and use it without permission from the copyright owner. So it's against copyright law I suppose the full sentence would be.


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## Ben

Read the "Terms of License" to be sure if it is allowed or not. If you are still not sure contact the support.

I can only speak for our libraries and our ToS: https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/legal/terms-of-license


> _*Can I use these samples to make "Music Libraries"?*_
> 
> YES, unlike some soundware companies, this is fully allowed with all of our products. The sounds have to be used within a musical context, however, and cannot be presented isolated or "solo'ed".


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## RonOrchComp

nolotrippen said:


> It's illegal



As already pointed out, not necessarily.


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## styledelk

RonOrchComp said:


> As already pointed out, not necessarily.



The grey area here is:
If you can't make samples available from their libraries-- because you don't own their libraries, you own a license to it-- and you agreed to that license by buying it (or at the very least by activating and downloading it
AND
You have the right to license your original works and compositions to [allowed use cases that they state]
THEN
Do those third parties have a right to sample your works to create a sample library?

In one legal sense, they do not-- because you didn't grant them that right, since you didn't have that right to grant. You only owned a license to the samples in a specific context, and your composition is a product (in part) of the affordances that license gave you.

In another, in some countries fair use laws, it's common practice that it is allowed to sample portions of Compositions to create Sample Libraries (however that Fair Use is often really well defined as to what kind of use is considered Fair, and which durations, etc.)

But what happens in the modern world where the creation you made was done with upstream rights that disallowed that to begin with, since they weren't _your sounds_, they belonged to someone else, which you effectively were granted a limited license to?


This is the part that probably has to be worked out in various courts of law. I'd hate to foot the bill to test that.


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## d.healey

We had this conversation already - https://vi-control.net/community/threads/using-products-to-create-products.95836/#post-4598893


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## Bman70

d.healey said:


> We had this conversation already - https://vi-control.net/community/threads/using-products-to-create-products.95836/#post-4598893



I ended up replying there, but I'll just post an excerpt:

If you want to go sample the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and make a better library than Spitfire's, they can't prevent this by claiming they copyrighted the concept of BBCSO sound libraries. However, if you remix Spitfire's samples of BBCSO, are impressed with your results, and sell them in a library... then that's derivative in the anti-copyright way. 

Grumbacher is a leading oil paint pigment company, selling tubes of their pigments to artists. They can't prevent others from trying to sell better oil paints in tubes. But the law does prohibit someone mixing their pigments into new amazing hues, putting them in new tubes, and selling those under a new brand. The reason is because the unique base of binders and pigments is still Grumbacher's formula. Likewise, the unique base mix of sound would still be Spitfire's.


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## Bman70

Ben said:


> _Can I use these samples to make "Music Libraries"?_
> 
> YES, unlike some soundware companies, this is fully allowed with all of our products. The sounds have to be used within a musical context, however, and cannot be presented isolated or "solo'ed".



This is certainly admirable to see from a company, and I admit I'm more likely to spend money on VSL than other companies because of it. Just so I'm not mistaken, does "music library" mean the same thing as "sample library"? As in, recording VSL sounds, exporting it to a synthesizer and making unique tones from it?


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## styledelk

Bman70 said:


> This is certainly admirable to see from a company, and I admit I'm more likely to spend money on VSL than other companies because of it. Just so I'm not mistaken, does "music library" mean the same thing as "sample library"? As in, recording VSL sounds, exporting it to a synthesizer and making unique tones from it?



They are indeed different!


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## Ben

Bman70 said:


> Just so I'm not mistaken, does "music library" mean the same thing as "sample library"? As in, recording VSL sounds, exporting it to a synthesizer and making unique tones from it?


This should be fine as long as you don't violate the 2 rules: musical context and not isolated. If you are not 100% sure, send an example to [email protected] and my colleagues will look into it


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## Bman70

Ben said:


> This should be fine as long as you don't violate the 2 rules: musical context and not isolated. If you are not 100% sure, send an example to [email protected] and my colleagues will look into it



Thanks. On the musical context part, does that mean it has to be part of a composition or musical phrase? Because a sound library would be more about a unique synth preset, that users could compose music with. The sound preset could be considered musical, but it's more of an instrument.


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## Ben

Sorry, I don't know where the line is. But my colleagues from support can help you with this.


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## Bman70

I emailed customer support so we'll see what they say to clarify


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## iobaaboi

Depends on the EULA of each instrument. 

The general rule of thumb would be that is not permitted if the instrument is sample-based but permitted if the instrument is DSP. 

For example: with Omnisphere, you can create and sell your own samples/sfx using the “synth” oscillators but not the “sample” oscillators. 

Re-sampling samples leads to what they call a “derivative work”. The fact that samples are sound recordings means they are governed by a different set of copyright laws than something that is code-only (IP law).


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## gsilbers

RonOrchComp said:


> Grey area.
> 
> You are not allowed to use a dev's sample content to make another sample library - I think that's clear to everyone.
> 
> But a Splice pack? I am sure the devs would all argue no, but is it really no?
> 
> You are allowed to use a dev's sample content to make a musical composition, that can be sold to a TV Production Co., to an ad agency, to a film maker, etc. But you are disallowed from selling that musical composition to another composer? Not sure how much sense that makes, or if that's even legal.




you mean loop libraries. splice is just a random company like thousands out there like big fish etc. that sell loops to musicians/composers/producers.

and no, its not a grey area. its very clear cut in all EULAS. You cannot sell sample libraries, loops, sound design whatever anyone wants to call it...using content from sample libraries and loops libraries, or stuff that you didn't record yourself. (or hired someone to record)

The EULA for sample libraries and loops libraries is to make music, not loops, not splice stuff or music related stuff that will be used for other composers to make music. the idea is that the samples are for the end user: the composer/music maker.
not a competing company/person making a product for other composers/musicans/remixer etc.
the term is derivative work in some EULAS. 

Extremely clear cut and no grey area at all.


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## gsilbers

Bman70 said:


> This is certainly admirable to see from a company, and I admit I'm more likely to spend money on VSL than other companies because of it. Just so I'm not mistaken, does "music library" mean the same thing as "sample library"? As in, recording VSL sounds, exporting it to a synthesizer and making unique tones from it?




the only company that doesn't allow music libraries is big fish a while ago. all other sound ware companies have no issues. literally all. 
and big fish released a statements saying its ok to use the loops in music libraries as long as its not the demo track. 

the idea behind it is because it seems a lot of people where just grabbing the demo recording, changing the name and submitting it to 20 music libraries. 
so big fish said no music libraries unless you have a specific license... which everyone got pissed about so big fish decided to not be so hard and allow for music libraries but not use the demo or recreate the demo track. 

but all of this is about loops. not multisample libraries like spitfire etc. everything multisample is ok to use for music libraries but not competition loops or sample libraries. 
or normally called derivatives.


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## gsilbers

Bman70 said:


> Thanks. On the musical context part, does that mean it has to be part of a composition or musical phrase? Because a sound library would be more about a unique synth preset, that users could compose music with. The sound preset could be considered musical, but it's more of an instrument.



I personally think there should not be a problem. specially since every company is releasing its own sample library player that has a lot of parameters. 
kinda like Omnisphere that so many out there make presets for.


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## Bman70

gsilbers said:


> I personally think there should not be a problem. specially since every company is releasing its own sample library player that has a lot of parameters.
> kinda like Omnisphere that so many out there make presets for.



Right so there's a distinction between "music libraries" and "sound (sample) libraries," I was a little confused since Ben shared VSL's quote:

_Can I use these samples to make "Music Libraries"?_
YES, unlike some soundware companies, this is fully allowed with all of our products. The sounds have to be used within a musical context, however, and cannot be presented isolated or "solo'ed".


"Make music libraries" doesn't seem to mean submitting to libraries like Audiojungle; submitting doesn't involve 'making' a library. I took it to mean making sound libraries, as in a VI pack of pads, textures, etc.
I'm still not sure if VSL's reply is merely saying it's OK to submit your composition to music libraries, of course that's permitted by any VI company. I wrote to their customer service, and the reply was that derivative samples / sound libraries cannot be sold. So you can't tweak some VSL sounds in Omnisphere and then sell it as a sound library. 

The OP was asking about loops though. If you compose a musical loop using your licensed Spitfire instrument, then you're allowed to sell that since it's a short composition... Like a 'sting' or 'bumper' composition which is several seconds long. The loop can't be just an unchanged portion of a Spitfire sound though, it has to be something you wrote that's unique.

p.s. Omnisphere presets can be sold since you're not selling a competing instrument, the buyer has to own Omnisphere and you're simply helping them use it.


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## tiago

Bman70 said:


> The OP was asking about loops though. If you compose a musical loop using your licensed Spitfire instrument, then you're allowed to sell that since it's a short composition... Like a 'sting' or 'bumper' composition which is several seconds long. The loop can't be just an unchanged portion of a Spitfire sound though, it has to be something you wrote that's unique.



I do remember in a quite older thread someone stating that it was not possible to sell loops using Spitfire products. It had something to do with someone having done that on Splice and that it was doing it illegally...
Nonetheless I am very curious about the possibility of using Vienna to produce commercial loops. I don't own any VSL stuff yet and rarely go out of the Kontakt sphere, but I would probably end up buying VSL products if there was confirmation about the legality of loop-making with it.
Maybe someone from the VSL staff can give a clear opinion on this?


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## DimensionsTomorrow

I had understood that sample libraries were a no-no, but as a hobbiest I never even thought about selling stuff for licensing for jingles, etc. Is there a thread anywhere that someone could point me to about getting started with stuff like that? Is there any particular company out there that is more reputable to deal with than others? I would want to keep everything completely aboveboard, so something that would be considered legally OK for musical compositions that include VSTs.

Sorry to hijack your thread! I hope you don’t mind me asking here.


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## robgb

What is a loop if not a very short, repeating musical composition? And if that's true, why are loops made with sample libraries verboten?


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## d.healey

robgb said:


> What is a loop if not a very short, repeating musical composition? And if that's true, why are loops made with sample libraries verboten?


Context is also important, is a loop meant to be a final standalone piece of music or is it a building block of a larger piece?


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