# Spitifire: why are their libraries s-o-o-o-o quiet?



## michaelv (Nov 3, 2014)

I've never posted here before. Be gentle with me.

My question is simple. I notice that, compared to other libraries, Spitfire's are so incredibly quiet. I have most of my templates set , with all the faders at -12.0 dB. In case you're asking why, its to allow a full ffff peak to not overload the Logic outputs. I do use Fabfilter's limiter, etc., on the main outs, but in orchestral music, one has to try to preserve the dynamic range, especially if combined with electronic elements.

Anyway, at this level Spitfire's libraries are practically inaudible, unless I take drastic measures. Most of the time, set like this, I have to push the Kontakt instrument level way up, or also push up the instrument's channel. 

Even then, I often find Spitfire's libraries still don't hit the red. It's not a criticism, because I love their whole philosophy and sound, but sometimes I struggle to makes their instruments cut through with other libraries in use.

Does anyone have any thoughts, or have experienced this,please? Appreciated.


----------



## Pzy-Clone (Nov 3, 2014)

As far as i know they do not normalise their samples...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 3, 2014)

They are very quiet. I change the max output setting to +6 dB and sometimes +12 dB in order to compensate...


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 3, 2014)

It's just the way they are built. Nothing wrong here; certainly nothing wrong with pushing the Kontakt instrument level way up (you want to stay away from going in to the red too much), or also pushing up the instrument channel fader. 

Also, you can change Kontakt's MIDI Controller Volume Range to +6 or +12. The other thing you can do if you need more level, is add the * Gainer* to the Insert FX rack.

Cheers.


----------



## michaelv (Nov 3, 2014)

Thank you gentlemen. Nothing I'm doing wrong, then, in terms of "corrective adjustment " , to bring Spitfire in line with their other, louder counterparts. I tend to do what you do, Patrick, as a first call. I just wanted to check that I wasn't alone in this.

Clearly, the standard is, generally, the others are louder, so I perceive that as an inherent "issue" in Spitfire, frankly. Inserting gainers ( personally, I use something like an L2 ) and whatever else is, to me an unnatural resort. But then , I guess you might argue that samples are not natural anyway…..

Appreciate the feedback.


----------



## zvenx (Nov 3, 2014)

OT: not for the first time, whilst reading this thread on my ipad I accidentally hit report post by accident on the OP. Apologies to the OP and the moderators.

Ps i wish the report button asked for verification. Sorry again, as you were.
Rsp


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 3, 2014)

Considering this characteristic, it wouldy be a good thing if SF was setting their instruments gain at +6 out of the box. This way, we wouldn't have to change every single instrument in order for gains to match across the board...


----------



## michaelv (Nov 3, 2014)

I honestly have to agree with that. When one loads up patches , theirs is conspicuously quieter. As much as I love their sound, this is troublesome.

Richard ( Sven), please don't worry, Sir: it happens!


----------



## Pzy-Clone (Nov 3, 2014)

not sure why you need more gain tho, in a large orchestral template i keep the -6db setting in kontakt, as well as lower about-3 db in vepro..., and theres still plenty of enough gain..., my master mix bus never peaks above o db, ...one can always add gain or process the stems later ..

I did not notice anything being quiet..., but opposed to say....a vsl instument , they would be..yeah. But also i dont see the logic in adjusting everything down to -12db..., as a default...better imo to adjust relative levels and send each dry\wet\section signal to a dedicated bus for gain control and sum it up in one or more master channels. if i need more or less gain i just link any group channels or main mix channels and adjust those, keeping the relative levels intact at instrument level.

There is no need to lower anything by 12 db if the inśtrument is not normalised like spitfire aint, and is substantially more silent than other source inputs in your mix.

But offcourse alot of stuff is waaay to loud out of the box....Some winds , for exampe...in my template are lowered as much as -28 db.., some less..., but point is...,if you need to boost spitfire instruments in a orchestral context by as much as 12 db...., i would say that is not the best approach and something is already way too loud in there in the first place  

But then again i only have some brass stuff by spitfire...., might be differences in their range...dunno


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 3, 2014)

All I know is that since I use a majority of SF instruments in my orchestral productions I always end up with the monitoring level cranked to the max in order to have a decent level in the room.
as a result also, my mixes are too soft.
Never was the case with all of the libraries I used until this point.
And I am not the type that needs for everything to be cranked to 0 dB either.
But like Michael said, this is way way soft.
I don't have an issue with the conceptual choice of SF, but an output level adjustment at the Kontakt level so that the libs match every other product out there would be welcome.

That, and assigning the pitch wheel to control the fine pitch of SF instruments would be nice, global, improvements....


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 3, 2014)

One more thing: guess what happens when your monitoring level is cranked to the max and you get a system message from your OS?
yea, like a bell sound of some kind, cranked to the max, coming out of your really nice and really loud speakers.... >8o


----------



## benmrx (Nov 3, 2014)

IMO you have to understand that SF have an extremely 'pure' way of designing their instruments. Everything from tracking to tape, to not normalizing their samples, etc. If you try and use some SF horns with 8Dio strings you're gonna have a hard time getting their respective dynamic layers to peacefully co-exist without adding a little processing to the SF libraries. If you have a SF only template than keep in mind that YOU have some extra work to do in order to get to a decent loudness level. They give you the kller, pure, awesome tone right out of the box, but the flip side to that is that you need to do some stuff yourself. Not a ton, but some gentle compression, EQ, and light limiting will go a LOOONG way. Moreso than volume boosting alone. Especially if you're tired of cranking your monitors...., which can be a dangerous way to work.


----------



## ryanstrong (Nov 3, 2014)

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> One more thing: guess what happens when your monitoring level is cranked to the max and you get a system message from your OS?
> yea, like a bell sound of some kind, cranked to the max, coming out of your really nice and really loud speakers.... >8o



Haha! I know this all to well—I too have to crank up the monitor room mix because of this and then get a blast from the OS, or I may forget and load up Spotify and get blasted there too.


----------



## Jem7 (Nov 3, 2014)

Well quite samples are better than normalized ones also if you're composing at 85db, they're usually loud enough and no need too boost the volume.


----------



## Synesthesia (Nov 4, 2014)

Hi Michael,

Couple of thoughts: 12db is approximately between double and quadruple the amplitude/apparent power depending on which psychoacoustic measurement you go by.

So by cutting 12db as a matter of course you are gaining the volume by approx a quarter.

This is not necessary with our libraries, as mentioned above, because we do not normalise the samples. We believe this destroys the dynamic inherent in the instrument across its range in pitch and amplitude.

You may need to do this with other libraries as they sometimes are set up to play extraordinarily loudly (to full scale) on load. 

Most pro engineers agree that approaching full scale in a digital system is bad news for audio quality, as it introduces all kinds of recombination errors and other nasties and does horrible things to your transients.

I never -- *never* -- need to boost the volume of my patches unless I'm going for a specific effect -- ie: ppp con sord at a loud playback volume.

If you are going for a realistic orchestral performance remember that the players don't venture into fff for very long during an overall musical performance, so if I was you I'd set my cloth at mf/f and then maybe dip slightly at the fff sections if you are peaking.

But again -- I have my template set up to use nice levels to 'tape' (disk) but I don't go above 6db until I hit my bus compression. If your work is headed for mp3 be even more careful as full tilt all the way with a really hit signal will not convert as well, and will end up with a nastier sounding mp3.

Just a few thoughts!

Thanks,

Paul


----------



## Hannes_F (Nov 4, 2014)

Can't you set your levels to - 12 dB _except _the Spitfire libs?

One point of clean digital audio recordings is to have them originally peak at - 20 dB for single stems and SF seems to deliver exactly that.

I have a + 12 dB Gain insert in my master for working on single voices that I then deactivate for working on the full mix, perhaps something like that helps.


----------



## Saxer (Nov 4, 2014)

Hannes_F @ 4.11.2014 said:


> I have a + 12 dB Gain insert in my master for working on single voices that I then deactivate for working on the full mix.


simple but great idea! really helps not to 'overpower' your performance especially on middle voices inside an arrangement just to hear yourself.


----------



## Pzy-Clone (Nov 4, 2014)

Patrick de Caumette @ Tue Nov 04 said:


> One more thing: guess what happens when your monitoring level is cranked to the max and you get a system message from your OS?
> yea, like a bell sound of some kind, cranked to the max, coming out of your really nice and really loud speakers.... >8o



That's funny...perhaps it should serve as a gentle reminder to turn off system sounds?


----------



## Hannes_F (Nov 4, 2014)

Saxer @ Tue Nov 04 said:


> Hannes_F @ 4.11.2014 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a + 12 dB Gain insert in my master for working on single voices that I then deactivate for working on the full mix.
> ...



To be accurate it is a clean limiter set to + 12 dB input gain ... just in case I forget to deactivate it for the full mix it will perhaps clip but still not overcharge the outputs.


----------



## lucky909091 (Nov 4, 2014)

I sometimes use the Spitfire libraries in my popmusic projects just to fatten a melody with a string line. 
In these cases I load the sound into Kontakt, set the Kontakt volume to maximum and then reduce to the desired level with the main volume control.


----------



## reddognoyz (Nov 4, 2014)

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> One more thing: guess what happens when your monitoring level is cranked to the max and you get a system message from your OS?
> yea, like a bell sound of some kind, cranked to the max, coming out of your really nice and really loud speakers.... >8o



Is there is an option to have the system sounds come out of the internal speakers in your os? that's how I have it set on my Mac.


----------



## zvenx (Nov 4, 2014)

I actually turn my system sounds almost completely off in volume.
rsp


----------



## ryanstrong (Nov 4, 2014)

reddognoyz @ Tue Nov 04 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Nov 03 said:
> 
> 
> > One more thing: guess what happens when your monitoring level is cranked to the max and you get a system message from your OS?
> ...




I JUST now switched to internal speakers! Good idea, forgot you could do that.


----------



## michaelv (Nov 4, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Tue Nov 04 said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> Couple of thoughts: 12db is approximately between double and quadruple the amplitude/apparent power depending on which psychoacoustic measurement you go by.
> 
> ...



Hi, Paul,

I really appreciate your taking the time with that considered and insightful reply. I didn't expect this thread to take off quite like it has. Just to clarify: are you suggesting that rather than boost the Spitfire patches, I reduce the others? In fact, I do that, on occasions. It depends on the nature of the music.

At any rate I have a Fab Limiter "hard-wired" to the main outs. It's so transparent that it never imposes itself on the mix. It's just that, as Psy-Clone mentioned, some other libraries are actually too loud, out of the box. Mocking up can be a minefield.

In terms of my general work in this field, I've never had any complaints or issues, regarding the finished thing, even if my methodology might differ from some, but it's fascinating to find out what others are doing.

I also want to emphasize that this was not intended as a criticism of the product. I absolutely love these libraries. Do a get a freebie now? :D


----------



## michaelv (Nov 4, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue Nov 04 said:


> Can't you set your levels to - 12 dB _except _the Spitfire libs?
> 
> One point of clean digital audio recordings is to have them originally peak at - 20 dB for single stems and SF seems to deliver exactly that.
> 
> I have a + 12 dB Gain insert in my master for working on single voices that I then deactivate for working on the full mix, perhaps something like that helps.



That's what I do, generally.


----------



## SillyMidOn (Nov 4, 2014)

Fear not michaelv, a company has just started up, called MESSERSCHMIDT AUDIO, who in the coming months will be recording with the same sessions players as Spitfire do, in London's Air studios, and from what I understand, all their samples will only cover the dynamic range f to fffff.

The instruments will come with special "cog patches" to seamlessly integrate with the Spitfire stuff. Cool.


----------



## michaelv (Nov 4, 2014)

I can't hear you, SillyMidiOn. You're just too mf for me. Oh, and next time, don't mention the war. There's a good chap.


----------



## kurtvanzo (Nov 5, 2014)

*Instrument/orchestral levels*

As a feature film mixer I can just relay what we do on a mix stage. Normally our room level is 85-90 db with a pink noise generator- meaning a cheap RadioShack Spl meter reads 85 dB when playing pink noise (if you don't have a generator then download the audio- 60sec pink noise @-20dBU). then playback music you enjoy- that should be a great listening level with the quiets not too quiet and the loud not blowing your ears out. Then go to the loudest point in the score- fff- is it just below clipping but never clipped? Awesome. If it barely touches -20dB then it's at least 10dB too low. On most digital meters you want it to hit between -20 and -10 most of the time, still gives you headroom but uses the bits as effectively as possible. Adjust your instruments outputs so when heard "in concert" the orchestra together falls into these ranges. You can deliver a little lower if it makes you more comfortable about the peaks- but base it on the fff sections. Also if you don't have great meters check out VUMT VU meter plugins (for your master bus) at Klanghelm -only $10! At -20 settings the fff should be hitting close to that 0VU. 
http://www.klanghelm.com/VUMT.php


----------



## kurtvanzo (Nov 5, 2014)

*Computer Chime in Speakers*

Oh yes, and if your on a Mac and using Audio/midi setup change your computer "Chime" noise you output to your computesr speaker and NOT your audio I/O. Then your music comes out the big speakers while the computers beeps come out the computer's speaker and does blast the speakers (also on most systems the "alert" sound can be turned down or off independently under system prefs/sound.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 5, 2014)

Not on a Mac here, but turned off system sounds completely, thank you (lazy me)

The issue still remains though, with any other VSTI blasting at unity level when in the same session as SF instruments. I try to lower my other instruments when using them in my orchestral setup (like Omnisphere) and sometimes forget to ride CC7/11 down before using, and BANG!, yet another blast >8o 

And yes, even with TV, I also find that the score's levels sit nice at -12/-10dBs peak


----------



## Synesthesia (Nov 5, 2014)

Patrick de Caumette @ Wed Nov 05 said:


> Not on a Mac here, but turned off system sounds completely, thank you (lazy me)
> 
> The issue still remains though, with any other VSTI blasting at unity level when in the same session as SF instruments. I try to lower my other instruments when using them in my orchestral setup (like Omnisphere) and sometimes forget to ride CC7/11 down before using, and BANG!, yet another blast >8o
> 
> And yes, even with TV, I also find that the score's levels sit nice at -12/-10dBs peak



I'm not sure I understand your problem Patrick, your absolute listening level should not be affected.

I've just loaded up a few patches from a variety of libs (Mural, Horns, Iceni) and played a chord on the loudest articulation and its right up at the top.

If you are playing a quieter art and you want it louder, just turn up the channel no? You surely shouldn't be turning up your master volume?

Just as a matter of course, I turn down the louder synths in my collection such as Zebra immediately on load, as they can be full scale with some patches.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen (Nov 5, 2014)

My room is set up so that -20dBfs pink noise yields 78dB SPL at the center of the desk. The room is ~ 380sf, so not a small space, and is fully acoustically treated. Most commercial recordings will rip your face off at this level, they are so compressed. Samples sound very good, and can match uncompressed, non-normalized classical recordings, though this makes me aware I don't have true pp string samples. Only p. 

As mastering engineer Bob Katz points out in his writings on the K-system, you can easily figure out how compressed something is by how much you have to turn it down once you are on a calibrated monitoring system.

If you look up the Dolby specs for mix rooms they mention that in smaller rooms, calibrating to -20dbFS = 85dB SPL will be too loud, and that was my experience. I found 78 dpSPL to be about right for me in my space. This gives me about 20db of clean headroom in my monitoring chain as well. I need better mains to get much over 100dB SPL before harsh distortion manifests.

I reflexively turn down 10db or more before hitting any YouTube link or Spotify track. For anything rock related, it is often 15-20db! Mastered stuff is LOUD! 

And, in keeping with the thread, Spitifire's HZ Percussion vol 1 sounds great right out of the box. My room is flat to 27Hz with excellent time domain response, and everything sounds huge when I hit the upper velocity layers. I use it without any gain adjustment at all. 

Setting a calibration level really helps anchor where things are. Even within a single library, I sometimes find a patch is quieter than others, and it is easy to spot when the system gain is a constant. Likewise, louder libraries, while easy to use in isolation, drown everything else out, and are quickly noticed for a permanent gain reduction. 

I am very much in favor of Spitfire's approach. Leaving 20dBfs of clean headroom is excellent practice and corresponds with sane monitoring levels. It is easy to turn stuff up and squash it if that is desired. But in daily use, it encourages use of the proper dynamic layer of samples, and quiet passages can be.... quiet, and ff layers are rarely used, just like in all "non-epic" writing.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 5, 2014)

Paul, yes, that's what I am talking about: synths a la Omnisphere all needing to be lowered before usage in a SF template, due to the difference in factory dB output.

when only dealing with SF, and to have enough headroom to play with CC7/11, my monitoring level for the project has do be significantly higher than say a contemporary, non orchestral piece.
As a matter of fact I have my monitors' master fader cranked to the max.
Surprised you don't have that issue.
Have you switched the K5 outputs to +6 or +12?

Thanks


----------



## jleckie (Nov 5, 2014)

Funny you should pick OMNI. That and Stylus are REALLY loud.


----------



## JFetter (Nov 5, 2014)

As someone who is _very _new to VI's, let me ask a very basic question:

My only library is spitfire right now. 
Is it satisfactory to turn the volume for each instrument in Kontakt to +12 (maxed), and then control all the volume in my piece with Mod/Expression? (The instrument track volumes in Logic stay at the default setting)

I'm not potentially damaging the audio samples at all with this method?


----------



## Steve Steele (Nov 6, 2014)

To me this is simple. Put a Trim plugin on channels that needs to be adjusted or attenuated. Problem solved within template. Never have to worry again.

DP comes with such a plugin, and I assume some other do too?


----------



## Steve Steele (Nov 6, 2014)

A question for Spitfire. Do you guys place your close mics further away from the source than some other "popular sample lib" companies? That's what it sounded like to me when I first heard Albion I.

Thanks!


----------



## Guy Rowland (Nov 6, 2014)

I kinda have this weird philosophy on all this. If an instrument is relatively quiet, I turn it up. If it is relatively loud, I turn it down.

I'll work on a flowchart for it.



nightwatch @ Thu Nov 06 said:


> To me this is simple. Put a Trim plugin on channels that needs to be adjusted or attenuated. Problem solved within template. Never have to worry again.
> 
> DP comes with such a plugin, and I assume some other do too?



In Cubase it's even easier, a gain control built into the standard channel.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 6, 2014)

JFetter @ Wed Nov 05 said:


> As someone who is _very _new to VI's, let me ask a very basic question:
> 
> My only library is spitfire right now.
> Is it satisfactory to turn the volume for each instrument in Kontakt to +12 (maxed), and then control all the volume in my piece with Mod/Expression? (The instrument track volumes in Logic stay at the default setting)
> ...



You're fine as long as you're not passing 0db/clipping at any point, ...


----------



## antoniopandrade (Nov 6, 2014)

I have no issues with Spitfire's samples being quiet, I do have issue with the fact that IF you want to boost their volumes, which is quite a common practice with many professional composers I know and work with, the ppp dynamic range of their samples many times reveal inconsistencies in programming that show to me that SF themselves perhaps don't test their samples boosted, in order to be sure that if users want to go down that approach, they'd be able to do so. I find this to be mostly true with legato transitions at the ppp range. That's my only gripe, but it's a biggie.


----------

