# How much should I charge



## nikolas (Feb 3, 2011)

I would imagine that there isn't no definite answer to your question... It's all gig based/project based/situation based. 

I don't know about film, but 100 euros per minute of finished music is rather low it seems, while 5-10% of the project budget seems extremely high actually! But I really am not sure my assumptions here are correct.

southnorth: When you speak of 'scores', you speak of the actual music scores (with notes and all), or about the music?


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## musicformedia (Feb 3, 2011)

Yea like you said it depends on the project. €100 per minute of music for an iphone game is probably more than 10% of the budget for that project, but obviously €100 per minute of music for a large commercial film would be very low.

All relative - hard to put a specific price on it.


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## southnorth (Feb 3, 2011)

With 'score' I basically mean the actual music delivered (masters). Notes are not a part of the delivered material.

So how much work (hours) would then €100 yield? 3, 4 or more (I know this really depends)?


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## midphase (Feb 3, 2011)

"My target films are small to medium length indie films (< 30 min)."


What does this mean? Shorts?

A film is either feature length (usually at least 80 minutes long) or it's a short.


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## rgames (Feb 3, 2011)

"How much *should* I charge?" is the second question.

First you have to answer "How much *must* I charge?"

So add up your expenses and figure out what you have to charge to make it a viable project. Nobody can tell you what that is - only you know your expense structure.

Once you do that, then figure out what you should charge based on the specifics of the project. Obviously your "must charge" fee is the minimum. If the "should charge" falls below your "must charge" then don't take the gig.

You, by yourself, decide a fee then enter that decision into the market. The market then decides if it likes that fee. That's how capitalism works. 

rgames


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## midphase (Feb 3, 2011)

Richard,

That is actually one of the most sensible things that you have posted. I agree full on and I'm actually going to use your exact words when I discuss this very subject with others.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 3, 2011)

You should charge half as much as we used to charge 10 years ago.



Sorry, couldn't help myself... :roll: :cry:


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## Lex (Feb 3, 2011)

For a medium length film you should always ask for...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l91ISfcuzDw





alex


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## John DeBorde (Feb 3, 2011)

rgames has some sound advice as far as determining how much money you need to be making on a gig. More often than not tho, you will be offered an amount and asked if you can do it for that rather than asked how much you charge. 

At least that's how it works for me usually. 

Actually it's more like "how much do you charge?" I tell them, then " well we have, XXXX, can you do it for that?" 

:mrgreen:


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## southnorth (Feb 4, 2011)

I think this has to be viewed from a slightly different perspective. Specifically, what can I charge considering I've not much experience in film scoring. That's the main reason why I'm asking. If I had been scoring films for 10 years, this would be a completely different thing.

Perhaps we could turn this around to you. If you had only scored a couple of short films, how much would you take for this service (based on your knowledge of film scoring of course, and don't say $1000000 just because that's what you want...capitalism...blabla)?


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## gsilbers (Feb 4, 2011)

a lot of variables. 

low budget indie film in hollywood means around a million dollars. 
fox searchlight do "indie films" 
those are "low budget indie films" 
also, /UCLA students also do medium budget 

just tell them you wanna own part or all the copyright of the film  
give them free food and credit to the producers
and once the film is done, tell em to give it to you and tell them itll play in many film festival with a chance of being picked by a major


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## rgames (Feb 5, 2011)

southnorth @ Fri Feb 04 said:


> I think this has to be viewed from a slightly different perspective. Specifically, what can I charge considering I've not much experience in film scoring. That's the main reason why I'm asking. If I had been scoring films for 10 years, this would be a completely different thing.


I gather you think we're not being helpful, but really we are 

As mentioned above, the answer to your question is all over the map. So, sure, someone can give you an answer, but odds are extremely high it's the wrong one.

What *will* help you out is making sure that you're doing something worth your while. Figuring that out is independent of how much experience you have or what type of work you do.

Plus, once you come up with some way of estimating your "must charge" amount you have everything you need to start negotiating because you can provide cost breakouts. Such an approach makes you look much more professional and will get you more gigs.

Think about it this way: let's say someone here gives you a number in answer to your question "How much should I charge?" You then pass that on to the film (or game, or whatever).

What are you going to say when they ask "How did you come up with that number?" If you say "I asked someone on the internet" my guess is that your odds of getting the gig go way down. If you talk through your expense/fee structure (revealing the fewest details possible, of course) then you look like a true professional and your odds of getting the gig go way up.

So, see, we really are trying to help 

rgames


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 5, 2011)

I heard a great line last night: you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve.


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## southnorth (Feb 5, 2011)

rgames @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> southnorth @ Fri Feb 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I think this has to be viewed from a slightly different perspective. Specifically, what can I charge considering I've not much experience in film scoring. That's the main reason why I'm asking. If I had been scoring films for 10 years, this would be a completely different thing.
> ...



Ah, I see. Well, this made things more clear. 

One concern is that I don't want to demand too much and consequently loosing the task to another. It's not that easy to find the correct clients. And, as we all know, the market is over-saturated with composers.


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## wst3 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> <Amusing, and fairly accurate stuff snipped>
> My rule of thumb is to always answer the question of "How much do you charge?" with "How much have you got?" Always.



You have gotten a lot of good advice, and yet I'm pretty sure your head is still swimming... and while that's not great, it's not all bad either.

Ned's quote is spot on - you get what you negotiate, and that's true across the board, be it a freelance gig or a 'regular' day gig. You'd be amazed at how flexible most hiring individuals can be. They have a budget, they probably have some pressure from above not to spend it all, but they have the authority to do so if they need to.

Some examples from my own experience...

I did some analog circuit design work for a start-up recently. They asked what I charged, and I told them that I had an hourly rate, and if they were willing to pay that I'd be perfectly happy, but, I acknowledged that there was no way to set the number of hours I would work, or guess the number of hours the tasks would take, so instead of working that way, I suggested they tell me what the work was worth to them. They presented me with a very fair number, and I accepted it.

This is the first time I've tried this approach, I know it won't work every time, but it did this time.

The problem is, the purchaser is always afraid to show their hand... their expectation is that if they offer more than you expected you'll grab it - which is only fair really.

I worked for a company once that did not play this game. We had budgets for staff, and we offered the top figure as our first and only offer. More than nine times out of ten the candidate accepted the offer, and was quite happy with it. Every once in a while a candidate would suspect we were holding out. It was rare, the offers were at the top of the market scale, and anyone that had done their homework recognized that immediately.

So there's the key for you... do your homework. There are two parts:
1) as Mike described earlier, figure out what you need to survive, and what you want to do well. These are your benchmarks. 

If you can not survive at the current marketplace rates, well, then you need a plan B. If you can, then you need to decide how long you are willing to wait to move from survive to thrive. 

Very important detail... there are approximately 2088 working hours in a year - that's based on 8 hours per day. Most composers do not work an 8 hour day, but that's as good a metric as we can get. 

Let's assume it costs you $$72,000 per year, before taxes, to pay all your bills, eat, and have something left over for savings. And for simplicity lets say there are 2000 hours in the working year (makes the math easy<G>). You'd need to charge $36/hour. OK, but lets stipulate that you will only be employed half the time, now the hourly rate jumps to $72/hour. Or, on the flip side, you are willing to work 3000 hours this year, your rate drops to $24/hour.

How long will it take you to complete 30 minutes of music? What's expected, a finished rendering, a score and parts, something in between? Can the music be realized with sample libraries and synthesizers or will you need to hire musicians and studio time?

All of these factor in. 

Let's say we can complete the rendering with only a couple of live players, and we have the facilities necessary to record them ourselves. And further, we've read the script, and we have played a rough piano rendition of some of our ideas for the director and producer, and they've signed off. 

It takes roughly one hour per finished minute to compose and arrange
It takes another half hour per finished minute per part to sequence
It takes 30 minutes per page to prepare parts
It takes four times real time for each player to record all their parts
It takes four times real time to mix to stems
It takes twice real time to prepare and deliver stems

You get the idea - this project is going to tie you up for X hours, and you need a certain hourly rate to survive. Multiply one by the other and that's your minimum charge for the project.

2) find out what the going rates are in your marketplace - and that means the type of work and the location. In Philadelphia, PA, there will be a 'going rate' for composition, production etc of music for advertising, short films, feature length films, games, and other media. It is growing increasingly difficult to dig this information out - everyone has become paranoid about someone getting a leg up on them. Too bad really.

When I started out - a very long time ago<G> - top voice over artists were getting $35 per finished minute in this area. I found this out by asking around, and everyone I asked was helpful. Similarly, recording studio time for a 16 track facility was going for roughly $100/hour. Rates for studio technicians was in the same ballpark. (sadly studio time is a lot less now, and there are no more techs<G>.)

When I wanted to break into the music for advertising market a few years later I was really surprised to discover that only a few of my very good friends were willing to share their "secrets." And agencies were mum, as were the clients themselves.

So finding this second piece of the puzzle will be difficult, but I'd expect that if you ask the question properly you will get some data. On the plus side, location is becoming less of an issue, so data from around your country will have some value.

In my case, data from composers working in New York or LA would be on the high side, but it's still data.

Once you know the minimum you can accept, and you determine that the market will pay at least that much, well, then it is a bit of guess work, or having the personality and sales chops to ask "what's the budget".

You commented that you did not want to lose work to other composers... I'd strongly suggest that you avoid thinking like that. It is counter productive - there will always be someone out there that will work cheaper than you will. And, you don't want to take a project where you earn next to nothing unless you really want to be part of it, and would do it for free. You can not sell at a loss and make up for it in volume.

My current day gig involves designing AV systems for a variety of industries. We have a lot of prospects who tell us they can get a similar system for much less. We encourage them to do so. We won't accept a project where we can't make a reasonable profit. About half the time these same folks return six months or a year later asking us to fix the system they purchased from someone else. Sometimes we will, sometimes we won't - depends on whether or not we can fix it for a reasonable price.

Quality costs money, whether it is a sound system or a sound track! You need to decide what your time is worth, and then believe in yourself enough to charge at least that much. And again, it all comes back to knowing what your time is worth, and that means, at some level, what it costs you to live.

Good luck! I wish I had accurate numbers for you, but I'm coming back to this after being away for many years. There is more work, but there are also more music producers, and the economy is still bad, so the purchasers are being much more frugal.

Mike's previous post was more succinct, I apologize but I don't have the time to edit<G>...

A couple of additional thoughts:

- there are often additional forms of compensation that can be negotiated. Don't overlook them, but don't depend on them either.

- Add in some time to "fix" things after you've delivered your music. In the past I had a hard and fast rule for fixes - they were always charged for real time and materials, whether it was a demo CD for an artist or music for media. It protects both parties, and it discourages infinite "could you try just one more thing" situations.

Good Luck! No one here is trying to discourage you (I don't think) but pricing your work is a highly complex process, and there are no cookie cutter answers.


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## Mike Greene (Feb 5, 2011)

wst3 @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> There are often additional forms of compensation that can be negotiated. Don't overlook them . . .


Good point. However, to be on the safe side, it's probably best to wait for her to make that offer, rather than come right out and _ask_ if she'd be into a little "additional compensation."


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## JohnG (Feb 5, 2011)

what...like a free screen saver?


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## David Story (Feb 5, 2011)

> My rule of thumb is to always answer the question of "How much do you charge?" with "How much have you got?" Always.



+1 for "Best Answer Of All Time To Any Question On Any Forum".

Seriously, learning how to ask "what's your budget?" and respond to their answer professionally is a big step towards success.


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## midphase (Feb 5, 2011)

southnorth @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> One concern is that I don't want to demand too much and consequently loosing the task to another. It's not that easy to find the correct clients. And, as we all know, the market is over-saturated with composers.




Sigh...

...and this is exactly why as composers we have fucked each other up so badly!


How about you charge whatever you think you're worth...and if you lose to gig to someone who thinks they're worth much less, you thank your lucky stars that you didn't compromise your standards and that you didn't have to deal with someone who obviously would prefer to save a few bucks rather than get the best possible product!

Sometimes losing a gig is the best thing that can happen to you.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 5, 2011)

southnorth @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> One concern is that I don't want to demand too much and consequently loosing the task to another.



Rule of thumb:

Anybody who enters a market via the price will drop out of the market via the price (sooner or later but it will happen).


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 5, 2011)

While I agree with Kays, you still have to have an idea of what pros are charging in general, or else you come off as an amateur. It doesn't mean however that you should try to out-low-bid the others. Just ask around, send a few PMs to veterans here.


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## rgames (Feb 5, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> My rule of thumb is to always answer the question of "How much do you charge?" with "How much have you got?" Always.


Of course it always comes back to how much money they have, and you can get the info up front if they will share it, but it's almost never the truth and it doesn't matter, anyway: it's better to understand what they want and figure out what you think it will cost. If they want 90 minutes of music performed by an 80-piece orchestra and they say they have $1,000 then it doesn't really matter how much they've got, does it?

Part of your job as the composer is to make sure they understand the price-value comparison. So you give them some estimates broken out in a way that lets them pick and choose and/or negotiate. You want live musicians? Here's the rate. You want sampled instruments? Here's the rate. You can't have any of those discussions until you have those rates figured out for yourself.

Understanding their budget helps you see what the work is worth to *them*. You should never confuse that with what the work is worth to *you*.

rgames


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## rgames (Feb 5, 2011)

In short, don't remove yourself from the value consideration. Then you become a commodity.

The best-paid professions make the best use of this approach: if you need a criminal defense attorney, does the attorney start off by asking what you'll pay? Probably not, he'll give you his rate and offer options if it's more than your budget allows.

rgames


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 5, 2011)

Not to play devil's advocate, Richard, but the problem with your example is that I'd be hard-pressed to find a defense attorney who would work for peanuts - that's not so hard to find in our biz.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 5, 2011)

southnorth @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> One concern is that I don't want to demand too much and consequently loosing the task to another.



That will be a concern for each and every project you have a chance at getting, up until the day you are an A-list composer and people are banging down your doors to get you. I agree, you don't want to ask for too little, because your time and talent are worth _at least _something, but you don't want to ask for too much for the reason you alluded to. It's tough finding that balance; but there is only one way to get yourself going.

I am going to add a different perspective. I am sure not everyone will agree with me, but this is how I see it. It's the IMDB factor. You might want to consider accepting a little less for a particular project, if it will get you an IMDB credit. Those are important; I can't say for sure that that is the first place that everyone looks, but almost everyone does look there. If it were me, I would rather do three really low-budget shorts at $1,000/per with an IMDB credit for each, as opposed to three really low-budget shorts at $2,000/per with no IMDB credits. Sure, that's 3 grand I am not getting my hands on, but the IMDB credits are worth more than that, AFAIC. Not that I am putting a $ figure to the credits, but those credits will help you gain more work down the road, whereas the xtra 3 grand will not.

Best of luck!


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## rgames (Feb 5, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> Not to play devil's advocate, Richard, but the problem with your example is that I'd be hard-pressed to find a defense attorney who would work for peanuts - that's not so hard to find in our biz.


Ned - that's exactly my point!

Value yourself first, then worry about what others think you're worth.

As long as composers keep missing that "value yourself" part, there will continue to be folks who will work for peanuts.

Look - I make less than 10% of my income from my music (performing, composing, arranging, etc). I have a lot of experience in a variety of other ventures, they all require estimating, negotiating, compromising, etc as part of the business process. In my experience, composers are *by far* the most willing to sacrifice in terms of pay for services. I think it's primarily because they rely too heavily on their customers to determine their worth.

rgames


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## southnorth (Feb 6, 2011)

You know what, I will actually go for what I think is appropriate. Well, perhaps a little less initially. Why should I use hours on something and don't get a fair payment? This has actually opened my eyes. I definitely don't want to be one of those guys that work for nothing, which is so evident in this business. Unforunately, this will probably result in less jobs, however, I'll keep my integrity.

Is an IMDB credit really worth that much? Can't anyone make a film and add such a credit?


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## midphase (Feb 6, 2011)

An IMDB credit isn't worth much if it's not instantly recognizable.

In essence, being the primary composer on 20 unknown films will not beat being the coffee boy on Pirates of the Caribbean 4 in the eyes of a producer.


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## David Story (Feb 6, 2011)

southnorth @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> You know what, I will actually go for what I think is appropriate. ... Unforunately, this will probably result in less jobs, however, I'll keep my integrity.
> 
> Is an IMDB credit really worth that much? Can't anyone make a film and add such a credit?



Asking an appropriate rate is a good place to start. It can be smart to befriend a rising director, and work for less to be part of their team. It seems less smart to work for peanuts on a project that isn't going anywhere.

Which project should you take?

Experience has value, so get IMDB credits. You can learn a lot working on small games, films and TV. If you only worked on POTC 4, one credit might be enough.


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## Mike Greene (Feb 6, 2011)

rgames @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> Mike Greene @ Sat Feb 05 said:
> 
> 
> > My rule of thumb is to always answer the question of "How much do you charge?" with "How much have you got?" Always.
> ...


This is the opposite of what I recommend. While I agree that we have to make sure that the rate works for us, not just the client, I don't see much point in making decisions like this ahead of time.

The biggest reason we don't want to decide ahead of time what our rate should be is that there's always the possibility that the client will have more than what even our high-side estimate might be. It's happened to me more than once where I was *hoping* for $5k and it turned out that they had $10k.

The other big reason is that budgeting ahead of time is a waste of time. You calculate what you think your time is worth per hour, then how many hours you think it might take, then how many musicians you'll need and what they'll charge and all sorts of other variables.

You do all the calculations and you get a number. Say $6,725. Here's the deal. The client doesn't have $6,725 written down on his little pad of paper. He either ò p   ~d« p   ~eµ p   ~f- p   ~k p   ~k p   ~o+ p   ~oB p   ~oO p   ~oS p   ~uÛ p   ~v p   ~x p   ~x p   ~~ù p   ~ p   ~€ p   ~€< p   ~Ž¢ p   ~Žº p   ~ŽÑ p   ~Žé p   ~T p   ~Û p   ~‘“ p   ~‘§ p   ~’` p   ~’„ p   ~’‹ p   ~’È p   ~ŸÊ p   ~  p   ~¶Ê p   ~¶þ p   ~·1 p   ~·2 p   ~»í p   ~¼Æ p   ~Ç p   ~Çœ p   ‰ p   Ž p   ¾ p   à p    p    p   × p   	 p   { p   ™ p   G p   p p   Û p   á p   (; p   (J p   =ü p   > p   >) p   >- p   H/ p   H4 p   Ió p   Iú p   J p   J( p   K9 p   KL p   K p   KÕ p   Tl p   Tˆ p   [è p   \ p   i½ p   ié p   tÇ p   tÌ p   … p   …¦ p   ‘C p   ‘G p   ‘K p   ‘c p   ’Q p   ’U p   ­' p   ­_ p   ¯‹ p   ¯ p   °Ê p   ± p   ²u p   ²Š p   ³I p   ³_ p   ³y p   ³ p   ´­ p   ´Ò p   Ç) p   Ç5 p   Ñ€ p   Ñ¸ p   Ò: p   ÒI p   ÒW p   Òj p   ÓZ p   Óu p   €/Ý p   €0' p   €D•              ò p   €L• p   €L® p   €\² p   €]/ p   €gÜ p   €gí p   €kç p   €kó p   €pŠ p   €q p   €¥U p   €¥Z p   €¬» p   €¬Ô p   €° p   €°  p   €²T p   €²_ p   €µI p   €¶< p   €¶¯ p   €¶Ã p   €·c p   €·h p   €»u p   €»¤ p   €ÆÉ p   €ÆÖ p   €Óë p   €Óø p   €Õ p   €Õ p   €áè p   €áõ p   €ì² p   €ìÍ p   8ô p   9' p   :µ p   :ë p   = p   =_ p   =© p   =Õ p   I{ p   I® p   JÙ p   JÝ p   QY p   Qn p   »ÿ p   ¼ p   Ä8 p   ÄK p   ‚g p   ‚‘ p   ‚
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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 6, 2011)

Huh, what the dude just said. Yeah, that's the ticket. I really like that part about how, "... you won't get me for that much..." and will use it as often as necessary!


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## rgames (Feb 6, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> This is the opposite of what I recommend.
> 
> ...
> 
> In my previous explanation of how _"Chances are that I'll take whatever your budget is,"_ well, of course that assumes the budget is reasonable


I don't see how that's the opposite of what I was saying. Seems to me it's exactly the same.

You're the one deciding what's reasonable, aren't you?

rgames


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## midphase (Feb 6, 2011)

I think how Mike differs is that he doesn't think one ought to give a client various budget levels to pick and choose from. Either they get you for the fee that you're willing to work for them, or they don't...no concessions or grey areas.

Of course this would exclude costs associated with orchestras and such.


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## Mike Greene (Feb 6, 2011)

rgames @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> I don't see how that's the opposite of what I was saying. Seems to me it's exactly the same.
> 
> You're the one deciding what's reasonable, aren't you?



Of course. But we're coming at it from opposite angles. Your angle is to let the client know how much money you need, give them a bunch of options, then work from there:


rgames @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> Part of your job as the composer is to make sure they understand the price-value comparison. So you give them some estimates broken out in a way that lets them pick and choose and/or negotiate. You want live musicians? Here's the rate. You want sampled instruments? Here's the rate. You can't have any of those discussions until you have those rates figured out for yourself.
> 
> . . .
> 
> The best-paid professions make the best use of this approach: if you need a criminal defense attorney, does the attorney start off by asking what you'll pay? Probably not, he'll give you his rate and offer options if it's more than your budget allows.



That's the opposite of my angle, which is to always make them go first. Always. The less experience you have, the more important it is to stick to that rule. Hans Zimmer can quote a rate. But most of us here should not.

And you should definitely not (in my opinion) give clients an ala carte menu, or let them believe they can help manipulate where the cost savings come in. That's nothing but trouble, because the client will manipulate to his advantage and nitpick your price down, but you'll wind up doing almost the same amount of work.

I'll go a step further. A lot of my work is commercials and theme songs. I never charge a client additional for live singers or musicians. (Unless there are a lot of them, or unless there are union considerations that I don't want to be on the hook for.) The reason I don't is because my clients think of me as the guy who always gives them great work without any fuss, not an accountant who's always staring at the bottom line and holding back if something might cost a little more on my end.

That may seem like I'm cheating myself, but it's not. My experience is that live singers or musicians save me a ton of time. How many times have we all struggled with some piece of music, trying to make it come to life? Well, if I bring in a singer or a live violinist to play the melody or whatever, then boom! Instant life!

I would never tell a client this, but if push came to shove, I would actually charge *less* for a theme song with vocals than without. Just because it's that much easier to make a killer song if I have a singer. I'm doing myself no favors by trying to write and produce songs all electronically.

And that's part of the whole point - I don't want the client to know what's easier and what isn't. I'm not a carpenter. I'm not a criminal defense attorney. I'm a magic maker. I'm an artist.

But I'm drifting from my main point, which is that there's no advantage for us to think ahead of time about what we would need for a project. None. Let them go first. THEN do the calculations and weigh the plusses and minuses to see if their offer makes sense or not.


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## midphase (Feb 6, 2011)

Can someone please add a FB-styled "Like" button to this forum?

I "Like" everything that comes out of Mike's mouth (actually fingertips....crap that sounds kinda dirty).


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## rgames (Feb 6, 2011)

Certainly you don't always give a cost breakdown or options, and you want to give out as little information as possible, but it can help in a lot of instances. Besides, my main point was that you need to do that for yourself to make sure you're doing something worth your time.

However, I do feel that sharing at least part of the detail helps to build trust: it lets the client feel like you're opening the kimono a bit. And trust is the basis of all business agreements, especially those that you would like to grow. You say you trust the film to be honest with you regarding their budget breakdown - doesn't it make sense that you should do the same? I would certainly expect such a quid pro quo if I were hiring you.

Think about it this way: say you want to build a house. You have some plans and you take them to several different building contractors and tell them your rough guess on what you'd like to spend. Let's say one contractor says "OK I'll do it for that" and the other says "OK I'll do it for that but you're not going to get exactly what's on the plans - here are some options." Which do you trust more and which is more likely to get the gig?

I always prefer to have someone show me he thought through it for two reasons:

1. I'm less inclined to feel like I got ripped off.
2. I have a *lot* more confidence that he can actually pull off the gig

There are many proponents of this approach in the music world, by the way. Richard Bellis' book "The Emerging Film Composer" has an entire chapter devoted to pricing and it says exactly the same thing. It really doesn't matter what business you're in; the approach is the same. Share just enough info to build trust, but no more.

Regardless of the approach, though, I think we agree that the first step is always valuing yourself. You don't have to share that valuation with a client but you must do it for yourself.

rgames


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## midphase (Feb 6, 2011)

If the budget that I'm being offered is on the low side of life, one of the things that I ask the client is to go easy on the notes and rewrites and deadlines.

I'd rather make a bit less and be less stressed out about the client being picky, rather than make more and be miserable for the duration of the project.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm thinking this thread should be a sticky. Mike's posts are right on the money, gems that should be re-read periodically.


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## Hal (Feb 7, 2011)

JohnG @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> Mike Greene gets my vote as "Best Answer Of All Time To Any Question On Any Forum"



YES :D


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## impressions (Feb 7, 2011)

i tell those who ask
me for free- "i wish for the 
days when we could all work for free."


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## dinerdog (Feb 7, 2011)

+1 on Mike's approach.

I ALWAYS try and get the client to go first. It saves you from being too cheap or makes them grateful if you (want the job) and will work with their low budget. Your in a much better position knowing.

I have a standard line that goes something like: "I know music budgets are tight these days, but I'm always looking for new people to work with, so instead of us going back and forth why don't you tell me what's been budgeted for music"?

That makes it easy to cut to the chase. If it's low, you can always write a theme and license some other stuff, keep the publishing, etc...

As musicians most of us NEED to take more of a business stand and not waste our own time. People will appreciate the honesty up front usually.

nb - you can always come down in price, NEVER go up. : >


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 7, 2011)

"We can pay you two thousand now, plus fifteen when we reach Alderaan".

As others have said, there is low budget and low budget. Beware any deferred payment on a microbudget movie - 99.99% chance you will never see anything. However (and it might not apply in this case) if there are TV sales agreed and it has a robust life ahead of it on the small screen, do factor in copyright which might pay out for years. The copyright payments can dwarf the original fee - it's one more element to negotiate that you keep the publishing rights.


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## midphase (Feb 8, 2011)

I find that except in very rare cases, extremely lo budget movies or TV pilots go nowhere.

If you're being asked to work for free or for very little money, chances are there will not be any PRO checks coming from it.


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## midphase (Feb 8, 2011)

Also...

I find it BS when the deferred pay is equal to what you should have gotten paid in the first place. No way...it should be more because you're taking a big chance on never actually seeing that money. The higher the risk, the higher the reward should be!


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## JohnG (Feb 8, 2011)

midphase @ 8th February 2011 said:


> I find it BS when the deferred pay is equal to what you should have gotten paid in the first place. No way...it should be more because you're taking a big chance on never actually seeing that money. The higher the risk, the higher the reward should be!



Absolutely correct. If you are taking a low fee, you are, in effect, investing in the picture. Therefore, your upside should be some kind of participation in the success of the film, just like another investor. That way, if the budget is, say, $2 million and you are foregoing, say $50,000 of what your fee ought to be considering the number of minutes of music, it is easy to calculate what stake you should be "buying" in the film -- a share in the profits calculated exactly as the profits are calculated for other investors.

As an alternative, there could be some kind of bump if the box office as reported in the Hollywood Reporter exceeds 'x-tens-of-millions.' This may be easier to negotiate.

The other ticklish issue is audit rights and all that. Which is just gross but needs to be in there.

Having said all this, the old "Hollywood Dictionary" defines "Back-End" as "You, if you think you are going to see any of it."


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 8, 2011)

Please note - a HUGE difference (as I tried and failed to get across in my post) between never-never "deferred" payments / shares in profits, and normal copyright royalties. That's why I said it probably doesn't apply in this case - if it's just a microbudget independent it won't have good prospects for TV sales, and they will be extremely uncertain. However there's (I believe) a good market in genre smaller studio films, which rotate regularly on cable TV in particular - the issue is more pertinent here. For regular TV productions, royalties are critical.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 8, 2011)

I've made some good money over the years from royalties from genre b-movies. Just because a project is sub-par quality doesn't mean that it won't get packaged with a ton of other things (remind you of a certain way of moving bad mortgages?...) and play in many countries.


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## JohnG (Feb 9, 2011)

so, it's out! Ned is responsible for the financial crisis!

In former times, one could count on a fairly tasty stream of royalty revenue even from fairly patchy low-budget action / loud movies. With an ever more difficult distribution market for such films, however, I fear that this kind of back-end is far less reliable today, reducing (ever further) the motivation to spend weeks of one's time writing music for them.

So, today, I would ask whether the film has distribution before assuming that there will be anything down the road.

I know what you mean, Ned, about the lower budget action fare generating royalties but I worry that those days are largely gone. The difference five or ten years ago was that some of the producers consistently were able to get distribution on cable and sometimes networks -- hence, royalties. 

A handful of producers still are able to do that, but the channels are much savvier. The successful product consistently features some kind of recognisable star, or is part of a series with a following. Five or ten years ago, the distribution channels would absorb just about any picture with enough machine guns and explosions, but that channel has withered for lower-budget pictures, and I'm pretty sure it's that risk -- of no distribution at all -- to which people are alluding when they caution about wasting time with low-budget work. No real distribution, no royalties.

Put differently, it once was the case that movies which wouldn't be shown in theatres in "G7" level countries could find a ready home -- profitable to the producer -- in less-developed countries and everywhere in DVD. But today, getting on HBO or Cinemax or Showtime is a whole new level of competition.

[this post edited for clarity]


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## impressions (Aug 31, 2011)

forgive me for bringing this up again, so everyone is pretty much for "no no" regarding deferred payment?

it's hard to feel empathy toward a film, that is first a feature, and second uses some high quality effects, and didn't save its budget for the score.

i mean how does it go there? they tell the financing party that money is required for VFX and footage but count on the composer market for excellent work with no pay?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 31, 2011)

+1 for 'no, no'

You won't see much $$ if it's deferred payment, if ever.


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## impressions (Aug 31, 2011)

and all those promises that it'll sell, just makes it more suspicious..


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## musicformedia (Aug 31, 2011)

I actually wrote an article on this covering some of these ideas:

http://www.filmandgamecomposers.com/gui ... pose-music


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