# Spitfire Westworld - Winner Announced!



## Mike Greene

Rather than have this discussed in three or four different threads, all of which are already on page 30 or 40, I'm creating this new thread.

The winner is our very own @David Kudell! It's fun to look back to when he posted his entry here, and I gotta say, I'm happy he won. That post, and the great reactions to it, are here.

And here is the Spitfire's YouTube winner announcement video:


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## sebastian___

OMG the guy from here with the gameboy music won  Congratulations


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## Andrajas

I mean, the winning score was fun, but really? it won. wtf haha

huge congrats man!


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## Jacob Fanto

David Kudell said:


> I humbly submit my entry! My take on Caleb's genre switch was to enter the world of a video game with 8-bit music and sound. I had a blast with this melody and creating fun variations building up to the final climax.
> 
> This was such a great experience. Thanks to everyone involved for putting on this competition. Thanks for listening!



MASSIVE CONGRATS for 1st!!!


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## dedene

sebastian___ said:


> OMG the guy from here with the gameboy music won  Congratulations


OMG indeed! But congrats to David 🤘


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## Eptesicus

Blimey.


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## Loïc D

Congrats to David !
Sometimes very bold moves are paying high !!!


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## sebastian___

At what page did he posted the entry here ?


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## Dale Turner

Well done @David Kudell !!


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## CromoFX

Congratulations, David! Well deserved ... 👍


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## Levon

David Kudell said:


> I humbly submit my entry! My take on Caleb's genre switch was to enter the world of a video game with 8-bit music and sound. I had a blast with this melody and creating fun variations building up to the final climax.
> 
> This was such a great experience. Thanks to everyone involved for putting on this competition. Thanks for listening!



Congratulations David!!! Well done!


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## emilio_n

Congrats @David Kudell 
You already appeared in the pools for a long time!


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## schrodinger1612

Wow, no words.


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## toomanynotes

quite a few token runner ups with 80k+ subs on youtube


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## christianhenson

Amazing work David.


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## Mark Evans

Well done @David Kudell !

I was too late for the announcement at the start but as soon as I heard the music I was like, eh, out of so many entries that sounds surprisingly familiar!


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## Manaberry

No surprise here. Great work David.


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## dzilizzi

Congrats @David Kudell Glad someone from here won!


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## Marsen

David Kudell said:


> I humbly submit my entry! My take on Caleb's genre switch was to enter the world of a video game with 8-bit music and sound. I had a blast with this melody and creating fun variations building up to the final climax.
> 
> This was such a great experience. Thanks to everyone involved for putting on this competition. Thanks for listening!




Congratulation David!


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## toomanynotes

Congrats! D


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## Cheezus

Great choice for winner, it was definitely the one that stuck out the most to me. Also really glad the Alan Silvestri-style one from the other thread got runner-up. It was pretty funny watching all the comments on the livestream going "Are you kidding?! Is this a joke?!" as if the contest had a "no fun allowed" rule or something. Lots of butts were hurt today.


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## dedene

sebastian___ said:


> At what page did he posted the entry here ?







__





Spitfire Westworld Competition SPINOFF - Composition Discussion, Advice and Examples


I can't find a new original path for myself. I want to keep heading down that action cue path but I think it wants more. It's not that I am not going to use it for practice, I am but unless I come up with something that has a spark I doubt I will enter. Just to be clear - these entries are all...




vi-control.net





It was one of the few entries I remembered very well, so winning is well deserved! Congrats! 😄


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## easyrider

David Kudell said:


> I humbly submit my entry! My take on Caleb's genre switch was to enter the world of a video game with 8-bit music and sound. I had a blast with this melody and creating fun variations building up to the final climax.
> 
> This was such a great experience. Thanks to everyone involved for putting on this competition. Thanks for listening!




Congrats Dude


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## David Kudell

christianhenson said:


> Amazing work David.


I'm so honored and humbled. And a bit in shock! There were so many amazing entries, kudos to everyone at Spitfire and the amazing judges for what must have been a tough judging process!


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## CromoFX

Sooooo cool! 😎 Congrats, David - well deserved!


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## AndyP

Supremo said:


> Gosh, are these even sample libraries or a live performance?!  Very impressive!


Very well done. Sometimes I hear a few Bergersen like phrases that remind me of Allegro Agitato.


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## Greeno

you took a punt there David and it paid off! fair play man!


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## paulthomson

Well done David!! Gotta say I *loved* all of the runners up as well - always a good sign when you shout “YES!” At the top of your voice while watching or laugh out loud in surprise!!

and well done to everyone who entered - the practice involved in taking part is super good for leveling up your skills.

good stuff!!!

P x


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## toomanynotes

It seems the Viagra hadn't worn off when the lads at spitfire chose one of the runners up.


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## Greeno

I want a wooden spoon!


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## Eptesicus

toomanynotes said:


> It seems the Viagra hadn't worn off when the lads at spitfire chose one of the runners up.



Weird isn't it...


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## michalioz

I thought there was going to be at least a live stream instead of a 5-minute video. It looks like people are in need of something fun and light in this covid-19 situation, which explains things. Otherwise I don't see how the 1st prize would ever make it into the actual scene. A bit ironic after all these heated debates on architecture and storytelling  Congrats to everyone for skilling up - I hope we get more of this!


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## David Kudell

paulthomson said:


> Well done David!! Gotta say I *loved* all of the runners up as well - always a good sign when you shout “YES!” At the top of your voice while watching or laugh out loud in surprise!!
> 
> and well done to everyone who entered - the practice involved in taking part is super good for leveling up your skills.
> 
> good stuff!!!
> 
> P x



Thank you so much Paul, this competition was amazing in giving so many of us an opportunity to score to an awesome TV show! I had so much fun with this scene!


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## jaketanner

Greeno said:


> you took a punt there David and it paid off! fair play man!


more like a Hail Mary..LOL Never in a million would I have done that based off the visuals alone...I don't follow the series so maybe that's why


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## Zedcars

Congrats David. I watched this competition unfold from the sidelines. I played with the idea of entering, but in the end knew the competition would be fierce, so got on with other things.

I must say, I was a bit shocked by all the negative comments on YouTube. No need for that - what does it achieve but make them look like a bunch of...


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## Laddy

Congratulations. Well deserved!


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## Kjenx56

David Kudell said:


> Thank you so much Paul, this competition was amazing in giving so many of us an opportunity to score to an awesome TV show! I had so much fun with this scene!


Congrats David !
I suspect you’ll be getting lots of calls soon.
if you find yourself in need of an assistant, I’m available and have a valid passport 👍🏽


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## Leslie Fuller

David Kudell said:


> Thank you so much Paul, this competition was amazing in giving so many of us an opportunity to score to an awesome TV show! I had so much fun with this scene!


 
Congratulations David!


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## josephspirits

At least a few of the winners embraced the genre change a bit. Was a bit surprised by some of the ones that didn’t make it, even out of the small pool I watched. You never know.


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## CT

Eptesicus said:


> Weird isn't it...



What's weird?


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## NDRU

David Kudell said:


> Thank you so much Paul, this competition was amazing in giving so many of us an opportunity to score to an awesome TV show! I had so much fun with this scene!



Well done David! This entry is like a needle in a haystack. I really love the writing and transition.


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## tebling

I distinctly remember after listening to David's entry saying out loud "ladies and gentlemen we have a winner!"

And after hearing him announced as the winner I gave a woop and victory clap because David feels like family around here  Well done and congratulations!


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## Jeremy Spencer

Congrats David! It was literally one of the only entries I heard and thought “I hate this guy, he’s going to win this”.

well done.


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## sherief83

Congratulations to all the winners!  i'd be very curios aside from all the viewer attention if you come out with something out of this for your career...no not more spitfire libraries, just genuine next level path now. hope you all capitalize on this and don't miss a beat! 

oh and don't let the haters get you all down...stand up, take advantage of all this and be very proud!


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## Loïc D

Kjenx56 said:


> Congrats David !
> I suspect you’ll be getting lots of calls soon.
> if you find yourself in need of an assistant, I’m available and have a valid passport 👍🏽



Ah yes, David, please let us know if there's any follow up after your victory.

Did anyone spot the other runners up ? 
The first one sounded very good to me (Rachel), I'd like to give it a watch.

That said, with 11k entries, I wonder if Spitfire did listen to all the entries or if they did a prefiltering based on Youtube views...


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## Jeremy Spencer

Jeez, I’d be curious to know their judging process for 11,000 entries. Yikes!


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## Eptesicus

Big backlash on Youtube. The results video is getting to the stage where it will have more dislikes than likes now : /. Yikes.


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## paulthomson

Wolfie2112 said:


> Jeez, I’d be curious to know their judging process for 11,000 entries. Yikes!



it was exceptionally detailed and well planned, with a team - a number of spreadsheets - I’m sure you can imagine!! We listened to every single entry.

I’m seeing Dolores in my dreams


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## Dale Turner

Wolfie2112 said:


> Jeez, I’d be curious to know their judging process for 11,000 entries. Yikes!



I (sort of) thought, given the multitude of entries, they'd automatically filter out (to lessen the numbers, right off the top) all the ones that somehow had a sample rate conversion error (ones that are like 4:06, which ended up at 44.1k instead of 48k). But nope! 4 of the 5 runners-up actually had that issue as well... thought hey obviously sounded glorious! Yes, must've been a CRAZY process.


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## CT

paulthomson said:


> I’m seeing Dolores in my dreams



Please Paul, let's keep it clean here!


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## frioventus

Congrats David! It really felt very different from the others. Spitfire said They was looking for creativity. Most entries were too simple, including mine.


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## Sunny Schramm

congrats to all the winners  

but - 11.000 x 4:20 and every jury-member watched all entries? wow! 😮🤔


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## Dale Turner

Re-enable safety features!!


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## Eptesicus

Sunny Schramm said:


> congrats to all the winners
> 
> but - 11.000 x 4:20 and every jury-member watched all entries? wow! 😮🤔



For one person to watch every entry in full from start to finish is 32.59 days in total (as in no breaks).


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## David Kudell

Thanks everyone. Still in shock over here!

I'm not too surprised by the reaction - a lot of positive and negative comments - but that's to be expected with such an unorthodox entry. I'm really just so happy a lot of people got to listen to my music! It doesn't get any better than that as a creative person.


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## jonathanparham

David Kudell said:


> Thanks everyone. Still in shock over here!
> 
> I'm not too surprised by the reaction - a lot of positive and negative comments - but that's to be expected with such an unorthodox entry. I'm really just so happy a lot of people got to listen to my music! It doesn't get any better than that as a creative person.


CONGRATULATIONS! Wonderful storytelling


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## ElCampesino

So apparently there were over 11,000 entries... I think it's hard to believe they gave every single one of them a proper listening and honestly I don't blame them if they didn't. Even if you'd only listen to 1 minute of every entry it would take 183 hours to get through them all. That's 23 solid 8 hour days without break. You could of course divide the work, but still, it's absolutely massive. 

Either way, with so many entries there's bound to be some kind of chance factor involved. Can't really argue with the winners though, definitely solid compositions. I know there's a lot of flak coming at the judges on youtube for selecting David Kudell's chiptune composition. But I kinda understand why they chose it. It stands out and provokes a laugh. If you're grinding through hours and hours of epicness (which most participants submitted), this really is a fresh shower.


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## Loïc D

paulthomson said:


> it was exceptionally detailed and well planned, with a team - a number of spreadsheets - I’m sure you can imagine!! We listened to every single entry.
> 
> I’m seeing Dolores in my dreams



 Paul & all Spitfire crew, my condolences.
It must have a been a crazy lockdown.

Take a rest, and have nice holidays all !

And thank you 1000x for the contest.

Ok now, when the next one ?


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## Redsa

I've got to be honest and say the standard of all the runners up and the winner was pretty poor to my ears. I was expecting someone to come up with something amazing and was left pretty dissapointed. Yeah, the winner was a bit out there, but it wasnt executed particularly well (no offence).


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## marclawsonmusic

This is predictably taking the same path as the Bleeding Fingers contest. 🍿


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## Richard Wilkinson

It's perfectly valid to disagree with the result (I thought it was a fun distinct idea with some good dramatic chops too) the manner in which people disagree makes it clear who's used to pitching for gigs and who isn't!


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## jononotbono

David Kudell said:


> I'm so honored and humbled. And a bit in shock! There were so many amazing entries, kudos to everyone at Spitfire and the amazing judges for what must have been a tough judging process!



Congrats man!


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## CT

I bet Jerry made angry YouTube comments when he got replaced on Timeline.


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## ironbut

11,000 Wow!

Congratulations David!
I thought your pacing was dead on!
And congrats to all the fellow entrants. 
I hope you all learned as much as I did!


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## ElCampesino

andrijatheloki said:


> Read comments on youtube, their promotion just backfired.All of their potential loyal customers, composers, well...won't be loyal anymore... Personally,for me it wasn't funny piece, but its just personal.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> btw* but the amount is really astounding, i never expected so many, i really thought it would be about 2-3k.... :D



Yeah, his entry is really a matter of taste. I really dig it. But then again, imagine if this would have been the actual score in the series... I probably would have considered it way over the top. 

All in all it was a fun thing to participate in. It definitely sparked a renewed interest in orchestral composition for me. But I guess I should look more into chiptune. The sound of the future.  The guys at plogue are probably gonna see their sales ramped up quite a bit following this competition.


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## Peter Wayne

Congrats David and all the other winners! I somehow knew David's entry was going to be at the very least shortlisted. Everything about it stood out in a good way. 

@David Kudell What sample library or plugin did you use for the 8-bit sounds?


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## Alex Fraser

Well done David!
Also, whoever is in charge of Spitfire social media...good luck! 😳


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## Keloo

Lovely. I guess beeing friends wirh all the Hollywood elite pays off in the end. Good job!


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## Eptesicus

marclawsonmusic said:


> This is predictably taking the same path as the Bleeding Fingers contest. 🍿



The winning entry for the bleeding finger's contest was incredible.


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## Jay Panikkar

Keloo said:


> Lovely. I guess beeing friends wirh all the Hollywood elite pays off in the end. Good job!



Uh oh, we're being invaded! MAN THE CANNONS!


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## Jimmy Hellfire

I don't know what Westworld is and I was completely out of the loop in regards to this competition, but the winning track is real fun, creative and a clever artistic statement. Like it a lot.


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## Jaap

Congratulations David, a job very well done!

And I am totally shocked by the way people respond on the announcement video... really crazy. How does one expect to become a professional composer if you are so easily offended and don’t see the bigger picture and of course one can disagree, but the hatred, the conspiracies brought in... jeez, I am flabbergasted.


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## Bernard Duc

Congratulations to David and everybody else! @David Kudell Your submission was one of the most memorable one. I didn't think you were going to win, not because it was bad but because I didn't think the judges were going to dare. I'm however very happy you won and think it's fully deserved!

To people who are sad they didn't win: that's how the industry works, we often don't know what the director is looking for when pitching for a film, but it's usually someone who took risks who wins. If you didn't win it doesn't mean your entry wasn't good. Rinse, repeat and one day it will go your way!


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## AndyP

I think David is a worthy winner. Just do something different and dare something unusual. I like that.


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## Eptesicus

I was surprised about how short the announcement video was. 

I was expecting quite a long stream, with analysis of all of the 6 winners, and maybe a comment or two from the famous judges.

Seemed very much like a "brush it under the carpet" event : / .


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## davidson

Well done @David Kudell, brilliant job


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## David Kudell

Keloo said:


> Lovely. I guess beeing friends wirh all the Hollywood elite pays off in the end. Good job!


There are some conspiracy theorists that looked up my IMDB and found that one of my gigs when I was an assistant sound editor 15 years ago was on MI:3. I had to explain that us lowly assistant editors never worked with the directors, and assure them that JJ Abrams has no idea who I am.


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## Michael Antrum

Eptesicus said:


> I was surprised about how short the announcement video was.
> 
> I was expecting quite a long stream, with analysis of all of the 6 winners, and maybe a comment or two from the famous judges.
> 
> Seemed very much like a "brush it under the carpet" event : / .



If they have had to watch as many versions of the clip as I think they have, I'll bet they never want to see it again for the rest of their lives.......


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## wayne_rowley

Congratulations to the winner and to the runners up!! 

It was a good competition and I had great fun entering and learned a lot too. But... wow... 11,000 entries! What can you say, other than this is a massively competitive industry and as well as the pros, there are a lot of talented hobbyists out there. Well done to everyone who gave it a go!


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## Lionel Schmitt

David Kudell said:


> There are some conspiracy theorists that looked up my IMDB and found that one of my gigs when I was an assistant sound editor 15 years ago was on MI:3. I had to explain that us lowly assistant editors never worked with the directors, and assure them that JJ Abrams has no idea who I am.


That's exactly what I thought when I see you were just some editor on a 2006 movie. As if he'd remember one of the thousands of people who worked on the movie 15 years later and convinced the other 2 on top of it.


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## josephspirits

David Kudell said:


> There are some conspiracy theorists that looked up my IMDB and found that one of my gigs when I was an assistant sound editor 15 years ago was on MI:3. I had to explain that us lowly assistant editors never worked with the directors, and assure them that JJ Abrams has no idea who I am.



He does now buddy! Congrats!


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## Michael Antrum

David Kudell said:


> There are some conspiracy theorists that looked up my IMDB and found that one of my gigs when I was an assistant sound editor 15 years ago was on MI:3. I had to explain that us lowly assistant editors never worked with the directors, and assure them that JJ Abrams has no idea who I am.



So you don't have certain 'photographs' in your possession then ....?


(Disclaimer: The contents of this communication are intended to be consumed in a comic fashion...)


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## Eptesicus

Michael Antrum said:


> If they have had to watch as many versions of the clip as I think they have, I'll bet they never want to see it again for the rest of their lives.......



Still seems odd. It was such a big thing for them with updates on Facebook all the time etc.

Then we got, these 5 are the runners up (few seconds played each) and then, "this is the winner, we thought it was pretty good" *plays the winners*

Bye.


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## Zedcars

Jaap said:


> Congratulations David, a job very well done!
> 
> And I am totally shocked by the way people respond on the announcement video... really crazy. How does one expect to become a professional composer if you are so easily offended and don’t see the bigger picture and of course one can disagree, but the hatred, the conspiracies brought in... jeez, I am flabbergasted.


It’s not as bad as it sounds. Apparently it’s all the same disgruntled person with multiple accounts...something to do with roasted marshmallows? \_(“.)_/


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## givemenoughrope

@David Kudell Congrats, man. I thought it sounded great and was well done. Not even close to my music tastes at all but so what. Neither is Westworld or most modern media. If anything, and I'm not sure if this was part of your intention, it really drove home how all commercial culture (our only real shared culture anymore) is just one big predictable rehash either from the past or from other media (games, etc). You sort of flipped that notion on its head a bit and it was hilarious. It's like, after seeing this, how else would anyone score this? It HAD to be this. 

Congrats!


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## Eptesicus

Zedcars said:


> It’s not as bad as it sounds. Apparently it’s all the same disgruntled person with multiple accounts...something to do with roasted marshmallows? \_(“.)_/



I don't think the overwhelming majority of YouTube comments and the dislikes beating the likes is just some disgruntled people with duplicate accounts...

Maybe people just genuinely didn't think it deserved to win?


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## Jaap

Zedcars said:


> It’s not as bad as it sounds. Apparently it’s all the same disgruntled person with multiple accounts...something to do with roasted marshmallows? \_(“.)_/



Yeah I remember that one , but I don't mean how people respond here as here there are very nice and supportive responces! but in the reaction section of the annoucement video on Youtube and also seeing the same reactions in some of the composing FB groups.


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## ironbut

I can't say how glad I am to read the post here congratulating David!
Go on ya ViControl!
I'm also glad to hear that you've been in the business for a while. I was impressed by how polished your entry was.


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## josephspirits

Eptesicus said:


> Still seems odd. It was such a big thing for them with updates on Facebook all the time etc.
> 
> Then we got, these 5 are the runners up (few seconds played each) and then, "this is the winner, we thought it was pretty good" *plays the winners*
> 
> Bye.



I'm guessing Christian will touch on it a bit more in his blog as well.

The real question is... what prop will he win?


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## Eptesicus

josephspirits said:


> I'm guessing Christian will touch on it a bit more in his blog as well.
> 
> The real question is... what prop will he win?



Dolores' costume ?


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## Zamenhof

I’m thrilled that @David Kudell won! I was really hoping that Spitfire would reward creativity and boldness and not go with one of the 10,000 Hans Zimmer clones. 

I honestly think that David’s cue is brilliant. I must have heard it ten times now, and with each sitting I discover new layers, references and hilarious ideas. What a genius!


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## Andrajas

Damn reading the comments on YouTube is just crazy... some folk are pretty serious lol 

Its indeed an special score for the scene, not the thing you "expect" from a car chase, but its fun and creative. 

I see now that I wasn't bold enough and thats something I learned here. But congrats once again!


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## gtrwll

...what did I just see (or hear)?  

Amazing, original work, definitely put a smile to my face. Congrats for the win!


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## spudow

Lol, it's like ww3 in that comment section


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## Zedcars

Eptesicus said:


> I don't think the overwhelming majority of YouTube comments and the dislikes beating the likes is just some disgruntled people with duplicate accounts...
> 
> Maybe people just genuinely didn't think it deserved to win?


Sorry, my tongue was in my cheek.

Seriously though, what does stating that opinion with such vitriol really get them in the end? Just seems completely pointless and kind of a d*** move. I mean, I get everyone put a ton of work in, but to be so sore about a piece which they disliked? It’s the nature of competitions. Just move on. I’ve won two smaller scale music competitions before and both times I got someone being nasty because in their opinion I didn’t deserve to win. But it wasn’t up to them, it was up to the contest creators and judges. I never understand this need to spread so much negativity to somehow alleviate their frustrations. It doesn’t help anyone.


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## Eptesicus

spudow said:


> Lol, it's like ww3 in that comment section



It's a blood bath!


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## Cathbad

I confess I'm struggling to see how the winning entries can be reconciled with the stated judging criteria: enhancing the viewing experience; inventiveness; storytelling. Definitely not standard issue.

Of the runners-up, the first two are well produced but very generic action/chase scores. I'm a fan of Silvestri so I liked that one and I guess Westworld does have a Back To The Future aspect, so I get the reference. But the lightheartedness doesn't feel right for a show that plays it straight. Kacper Stachowiak's synthy heavy metal version was my favourite of the selection. Great sound, but issues with not complementing what was on screen because of distracting musical transitions. And the one with the Tchaikovsky-esque waltz in it? Well, there's inventive and then there's totally incongruous. I'm also surprised the judges gave a pass to the poor virtual orchestration/production standard.

The winning entry is really catchy and I do like it, musically. Inventive yes, but enhancing what's on screen? Storytelling? Maybe I should have submitted my groovy Isaac Hayes Shaft-style spoof after all. And as some have mentioned, it sounds like some of the audio FX in the clip have been altered (eg homing missile, gunfire) in breach of the rules.

I always thought this was an extremely clever marketing stunt from Spitfire and HBO. It created masses of free advertising and interest in the products of the two companies. But the consensus in the YT comments seems to be that Spitfire has earned itself quite a lot of bad feeling with these results. Although how much of a hand they had in the judging isn't clear, so perhaps blaming them is unfair.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I had dozens of blockbuster credits I would have thought it in poor taste to enter the competition. Someone else would benefit from the opportunity much more than me, especially if composing were no longer my main career effort. And if I did enter and win, I was taught that the gracious winner's response is to donate the prize to a worthy cause, especially a piece of memorabilia. But that's just me.


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## MartinH.

Congratulations @David Kudell! 



I scrolled down to take a look at the comment section and...



Spoiler


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## Keloo

It's not about conspiracy theories and some other crap like that. The point of the competition was to enhance and imerse the viewer. That's what music does on movies. Imagine if this was played during the plane sequence in "inception". You would be scratching your head, about what was in Zimmer's mind at that time and how the hell did Chris Nolan accept it. The winner's piece did none of that. Absolutely not. I'm not talking about the music as a stand alone. I'm talking about the music in this context. Not to mention the ammount of rules broken by simply using "motifs and riffs" from other sources (mario, zelda just to name a few). And yeah, that begs a question mark, why would a guy who worked as a music producer or sound editor, who worked with the biggest names in hollywood on some of the biggest blockbusters would even participate in this competition. Since he is already a NAME in the industry. It's like having John Williams in up for a conducting competition or composing by actually writing music, not just sampling arround some libraries. Sorry but this is just taking a p... At all the people who worked hard and gave their best. I am one of the guys who didn't participate, because I found about it too late, but I am glad I didn't. This piece of music is a joke and does not even come close to the requirments they presented at the beginning of the video. Just my 2 cents. 

Sorry for my broken written english. Not my first language.


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## Ran Zhou

Andrajas said:


> Its indeed an special score for the scene, not the thing you "expect" from a car chase, but its fun and creative.


Totally agree! Music is about the creativity and fun! It's just so different from what people would expect, but I surely had a big laugh when I heard the "winning chip tune" ! It's awesome, and definitely shows David's skills as well! Congrats to David! Great to see a winner from the forum!


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## Alex Fraser

As it was with the BF competition: The judges are always looking for something to come out of the left field and surprise. There's a lesson to be learned here I guess.

I wonder if they'll run another...


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## Virtuoso

Congratulations David! I really liked the way the scoring shifts from the unconventional internal character perspective to the wider view. The bold, risky approach really paid off!


----------



## MikeRolls

Alex Fraser said:


> As it was with the BF competition: The judges are always looking for something to come out of the left field and surprise. There's a lesson to be learned here I guess.
> 
> I wonder if they'll run another...



Indeed. Admittedly I didn't have the balls to submit an entry, but a lot of the ones I did hear all sounded very similar so it's almost inevitable that something like this would win. Good for him.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Congratulations David! *uck the haters.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Cathbad said:


> I confess I'm struggling to see how the winning entries can be reconciled with the stated judging criteria: enhancing the viewing experience; inventiveness; storytelling. Definitely not standard issue.
> 
> Of the runners-up, the first two are well produced but very generic action/chase scores. I'm a fan of Silvestri so I liked that one and I guess Westworld does have a Back To The Future aspect, so I get the reference. But the lightheartedness doesn't feel right for a show that plays it straight. Kacper Stachowiak's synthy heavy metal version was my favourite of the selection. Great sound, but issues with not complementing what was on screen because of distracting musical transitions. And the one with the Tchaikovsky-esque waltz in it? Well, there's inventive and then there's totally incongruous. I'm also surprised the judges gave a pass to the poor virtual orchestration/production standard.
> 
> The winning entry is really catchy and I do like it, musically. Inventive yes, but enhancing what's on screen? Storytelling? Maybe I should have submitted my groovy Isaac Hayes Shaft-style spoof after all. And as some have mentioned, it sounds like some of the audio FX in the clip have been altered (eg homing missile, gunfire) in breach of the rules.
> 
> I always thought this was an extremely clever marketing stunt from Spitfire and HBO. It created masses of free advertising and interest in the products of the two companies. But the consensus in the YT comments seems to be that Spitfire has earned itself quite a lot of bad feeling with these results. Although how much of a hand they had in the judging isn't clear, so perhaps blaming them is unfair.
> 
> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I had dozens of blockbuster credits I would have thought it in poor taste to enter the competition. Someone else would benefit from the opportunity much more than me, especially if composing were no longer my main career effort. And if I did enter and win, I was taught that the graceful winner's response is to donate the prize to a worthy cause, especially a piece of memorabilia. But that's just me.


I completely agree. I really liked David’s entry when I first saw it (still do), and it stood out among many of the generic entries I saw. And in that sense I see how it won.

Having said that, it doesn’t really work for me as a score. Once the 8 bit part kicks in, all pacing and drama goes out the window, and is replaced with a shtick (albeit a fun one). Nothing wrong with that of course, but it might be a little over too over the top, and that’s where it pulls me out of the scene.

So for those reasons, I completely understand people’s anger. Due to where I live, I could never have won anyway, so there are no sour grapes on my part. I’m just saying, I get why people are angry. I think to have chosen an entry that sort of flies in the face of what it seemed they were looking for was insulting.

This should not reflect on David’s entry either. He is not responsible for anyone’s negative reaction. I hope this is all taken the right way. Congratulations to all the winners!


----------



## tebling

Cathbad said:


> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I had dozens of blockbuster credits I would have thought it in poor taste to enter the competition.



If that's directed at David K, he was Assistant Sound Editor on those films. That's a far cry from Composer.


----------



## easyrider

David Kudell said:


> I'm so honored and humbled. And a bit in shock! There were so many amazing entries, kudos to everyone at Spitfire and the amazing judges for what must have been a tough judging process!



Is it true you have worked with JJ Abrams?

Is this you?









David Kudell - IMDb


David Kudell. Music Department: De Familie Claus 2. David Kudell is an LA-based music composer for film & TV. He is well known for being selected by JJ Abrams, Jonathan Nolan, Lisa Joy and Ramin Djawadi out of 11,000 composers as the winner of a scoring competition to score a scene from the HBO...




www.imdb.com


----------



## tebling

easyrider said:


> Is it true you have worked with JJ Abrams?



That's been answered already: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/spitfire-westworld-winner-announced.95160/post-4585977


----------



## stigc56

A funny piece of music, doubt that it would make it in the movie. Not telling quite the same story as the clip, although I’m sure the composer know that. 
Congrats


----------



## David Kudell

Keloo said:


> And yeah, that begs a question mark, why would a guy who worked as a music producer or sound editor, who worked with the biggest names in hollywood on some of the biggest blockbusters would even participate in this competition. Since he is already a NAME in the industry. It's like having John Williams in up for a conducting competition or composing by actually writing music, not just sampling arround some libraries.


Hi there Keloo, I appreciate your feedback. Just to clarify, my duties working as an assistant sound editor were primarily sitting in a machine room and loading DAT tapes of production dialog in an office. And spotting ADR cues for the sound editors. It's about as glamorous as driving the catering truck on set. So the idea that JJ Abrams or any other director knows who I am is ridiculous.


----------



## SamC

Congratulations @David Kudell! You know what they say, freedom lies in being bold!

All the best man, good job.


----------



## Cathbad

tebling said:


> If that's directed at David K, he was Assistant Sound Editor on those films. That's a far cry from Composer.


I don't know the guy and I've nothing against him. If he's trying for a career change or something, great, good luck.

All I'm saying is that if I had a well established career in the industry, I'd feel it inappropriate to enter a competition. Not least because I'd already have other, much better avenues for personal advancement. So I'd rather stay out of the way of some young hopeful who's trying to catch a break and get started. But that's just me. Hollywood no doubt has its own rules.


----------



## Dale Turner

Cathbad said:


> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if I had dozens of blockbuster credits I would have thought it in poor taste to enter the competition.



He has ZERO credits as a COMPOSER (on IMDB). Can't someone have another job, like SOUND EDITOR, then evolve into COMPOSER? I say WELL DONE!

No such "restrictions" to entering this contest were ever stated.


----------



## easyrider

Looks like this has backfired on spitfire....they have disabled comments on Instagram and are facing a Sh1t Storm on YouTube....


----------



## Jdiggity1

easyrider said:


> Looks like this has backfired on spitfire....they have disabled comments on Instagram and are facing a Sh1t Storm on YouTube....


I can hear your evil laugh from here!


----------



## dflood

Congratulations @David Kudell! With 11,000 entries, the one thing you had to do is take chances and stand out. You took what was already a pretty campy action scene and really drove it over the top with that score. Well done!


----------



## easyrider

Jdiggity1 said:


> I can hear your evil laugh from here!



No, I was just posting facts...


----------



## Loïc D

Dale Turner said:


> He has ZERO credits as a COMPOSER. Can't someone have another job, like SOUND EDITOR, then evolve into COMPOSER? I saw WELL DONE!
> 
> No such "restrictions" to entering this contest were ever stated.


Exactly !
That’s part of the game to have also pro or semi-pro entering the contest.
Some other contest state that you can’t have more than x entries in IMDB, not this one.
So there’s no cheating or nothing unfair.

David took a bold move with this 8bit style, it worked and good for him.

It doesn’t mean that other entries were not worth winning, it’s just the one that the jury picked.

If you’re not ok with this, just pass your way because all contests work more or less the same and there’s no such thing as winning logic.

So congratulations again to David and all runners up, and may this focus bring them some work and job.


----------



## Cathbad

Dale Turner said:


> He has ZERO credits as a COMPOSER. Can't someone have another job, like SOUND EDITOR, then evolve into COMPOSER? I saw WELL DONE!
> 
> No such "restrictions" to entering this contest were ever stated.



Sure, people can change careers. Go for it. But if you've already done years of audio work in LA, you have connections most can only dream of. Competitions are for people trying to get a foot in the door, not for people who've had both feet in the door for years.

And it's nothing to do with written rules. I try to follow the example of some very decent men who helped me along my way. But different types of professional etiquette apply in different places, so like I said... that's just me.

Flattered you think me worthy of a double post btw


----------



## Dale Turner

Cathbad said:


> Flattered you think me worthy of a double post btw


I had a typo and didn't want to edit it, so I reposted it.


----------



## kgdrum

Congratulations David!

I really enjoy the unexpected way you took this,well done. 😎


----------



## MartinH.

Alex Fraser said:


> I wonder if they'll run another...





MikeRolls said:


> but a lot of the ones I did hear all sounded very similar so it's almost inevitable that something like this would win. Good for him.



I think wanting to run another contest in the future is a good explanation for why they picked this track as a winner. Imagine getting 11k submissions and lets say ~10k are cinematic string ostinatos with some synth elements (no idea if that percentage is anywhere near accurate, I barely listened to entries because the whole thing didn't interest me that much)... after having screened through thousands of samey entries I bet they all think "If I hear another string ostinato I'm gonna jump out the window". In their situation I'd have wanted to make sure the next competition gets more varied entries. So of course they pick something with lots of creativity and surprises! And if that pisses off a couple thousand of the guys who submitted the "competent but predictable" pieces, and they won't partake the next time, maybe that's a bonus for them as well? Who'd want to sift through 11k submissions of anything? That's nuts. I agree with those that said if they run such a contest they better make sure to treat the submissions with the respect they deserve and really listen to all of them with a team that does a first pass of filtering before the judges listen to the top 100 or so from that. But I also do understand that they want to reward creativity and things that make the process of screening and judging more fun the next time.


----------



## Paul Cardon

A bunch of y'all have never seen how these sorts of contests go before and it shows. Nothing surprising about any angle of this. Understand that projecting "well this is how it should have gone..." into this is a TOTAL waste of your mental energy. 

Remix/cover/mixing/etc. contests in every other part of the music industry go the same way.


----------



## Andrajas

While I have nothing against the winner, I do wonder tho why it was in this case ok to manipulate the sound fx, when it was stated that it was not ok to do so?


----------



## Keloo

Dale Turner said:


> He has ZERO credits as a COMPOSER. Can't someone have another job, like SOUND EDITOR, then evolve into COMPOSER? I saw WELL DONE!
> 
> No such "restrictions" to entering this contest were ever stated.




True and I have nothing against that. He still violated the terms and conditions stated by Spitfire by modifying the video clip. So yeah. I guess we are going to find excuses for that as well. Should've been disqualified, but as I said before, nothing against the man, I'm sure he is a cool guy, but this is shady as hell. Rules don't apply to him, but apply to everyone else, the "piece" of music doesn't fit the criteria they requested, it actually takes you off the scene, the composition is mediocre at best, but that's not his fault. I'm sure he did his best. It's just an insult to any wannabe composer out there. 

I was expecting to be amazed by his composition, what I recieved was a good laugh between me and my wife, and a bitter taste thinking about the people who actually put time and effort in this scam


----------



## Paul Cardon

Keloo said:


> True and I have nothing against that. He still violated the terms and conditions stated by Spitfire by modifying the video clip. So yeah. I guess we are going to find excuses for that as well. Should've been disqualified, but as I said before, nothing against the man, I'm sure he is a cool guy, but this is shady as hell. Rules don't apply to him, but apply to everyone else, the "piece" of music doesn't fit the criteria they requested, it actually takes you off the scene, the composition is mediocre at best, but that's not his fault. I'm sure he did his best. It's just an insult to any wannabe composer out there.
> 
> I was expecting to be amazed by his composition, what I recieved was a good laugh between me and my wife, and a bitter taste thinking about the people who actually put time and effort in this scam



It's a "scam" now, LOL.

A rule or two got fudged a little, but it was slight enough and made enough of an impact for the judges to feel it was worth letting through. Live and let live.


----------



## SamC

Seems to be a lot of bad faith in this competition which is disappointing. Anyone who has spent any time as a working composer knows this industry is all about rejection. People seem to be taking this very personally.

I treated this like a pitch. Sometimes I win them, but I mostly lose them. More often than not you see what the client chose and it‘s a million miles away from what you thought the brief was. It happens all the time and competitions are no different.

Hopefully you learn from everything you do. So you take what you learned and move onto the next opportunity.

Congrats to the winners and all the composers who can take something positive away from the process. I really enjoyed listening to everyone’s efforts!


----------



## michalioz

Fun fact: the winner and one of the runner-ups both heavily used 80s references.


----------



## christianhenson

I'm overjoyed by the VI-C reaction here. Fuck me have you seen the YouTube comments

YOWZERS

I've not been involved in this competition but I would if given the chance scream out to the haters and say

WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS

Being different fucking matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape shit other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000

ELEVEN THOUSAND

People taking part.

Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry

Tarrantino
Ferrara
Lee
De Palma
Scorsese
Allen
Wright

???

You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.

This is the fundamental error we so often make, we judge ourselves in the minds of ourselves as composers, not with empathy towards the people who's work we're paid to enhance, who's stories we're paid to help tell.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING

This is real life, I remember the first 5 years of my professional life saying "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???" for every single job I went up for.... 

So for me, a massive lesson to be learned.... probably not least by us at Spitfire.

Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.

Love to you all for the intelligence!

C. x


----------



## Michael Antrum

In life I have generally found that the “rules” are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Plus the fact that this competition will have given many a masterclass in one of the most important lessons in the music biz......how to handle rejection. Many seem to have failed this particular class.


----------



## SamC

christianhenson said:


> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.



Exactly! I think there can be a lot of “echo chambery” amongst composers and we forget other composers are not our audience.


----------



## SimonViklund

I love the winning entry! It establishes a sense of "traditional" skill and high production value right at the start just to show you that the composer knows what film/TV music is "supposed" to sound like, and is "in on the joke"... Then when Aaron Paul zones out the music starts going crazy and before you know it you're on this wild 8-bit ride! Absolutely unexpected and _very_ bold - bravo!

Everyone must have known from the get-go that the winner could never be some generic underscore with string ostinatos and "braaahms" on the explosions. Everyone's heard that and even if it's extremely well produced, it's a modern cliché and practically yawn inducing. If something even remotely close to that type of production music would have won, there would also have been a sh!tstorm in the YouTube comments section - and a much more justified one in my opinion! Of course something "left field" won - and I loved it!

Speaking of the YouTube comment section: People don't seem to understand that a jury decision is completely subjective. The angry people in the comment section seem to want to tell the jury members how they should feel about music. Bizarre. There were probably 10k+ ostinato-and-braaahm submissions and not 1k of them were well produced. I don't envy the jury's job of sifting through all that.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that the members of this forum show more solidarity among composers and stay clear of the conspiracy theories. Big congrats to @David Kudell !

(edited for spelling error)


----------



## Michael Antrum

christianhenson said:


> I'm overjoyed by the VI-C reaction here. Fuck me have you seen the YouTube comments
> 
> YOWZERS
> 
> I've not been involved in this competition but I would if given the chance scream out to the haters and say
> 
> WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS
> 
> Being different fucking matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape shit other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000
> 
> ELEVEN THOUSAND
> 
> People taking part.
> 
> Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry
> 
> Tarrantino
> Ferrara
> Lee
> De Palma
> Scorsese
> Allen
> Wright
> 
> ???
> 
> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.
> 
> This is the fundamental error we so often make, we judge ourselves in the minds of ourselves as composers, not with empathy towards the people who's work we're paid to enhance, who's stories we're paid to help tell.
> 
> BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
> 
> This is real life, I remember the first 5 years of my professional life saying "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???" for every single job I went up for....
> 
> So for me, a massive lesson to be learned.... probably not least by us at Spitfire.
> 
> Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.
> 
> Love to you all for the intelligence!
> 
> C. x



God alone knows what would happen if you did something mildy controversial.... Imagine if you were to do something such as pouring the milk before the tea - governments could fall.....

I simply don’t know how you do it.....


----------



## Michael Stibor

Paul Cardon said:


> It's a "scam" now, LOL.
> 
> A rule or two got fudged a little, but it was slight enough and made enough of an impact for the judges to feel it was worth letting through. Live and let live.


But that’s not how “rules” work. That’s how guidelines work. That’s how “suggestions” work.

Personally, I didnt even notice that there were changes to the audio in the winning track. And personally, I don’t they made a difference in the artistic outcome either way. But you can’t say “oh well, so a rule or two gets fudged”. That makes no sense. I was conscious to follow the rules to a T, as were many others. So it’s fair for them to be insulted that rules were thrown out the window for the winner, when they were kept firmly in check for everyone else.


----------



## Dale Turner

Keloo said:


> He still violated the terms and conditions stated by Spitfire by modifying the video clip.



I thought it only said "do not modify the film." Nothing about the "soundtrack."



Keloo said:


> the "piece" of music doesn't fit the criteria they requested



They never requested anything though. They only mentioned different areas they would evaluate, to make a decision (helps support story, etc.). And if it's supposed to connect with the story... the actual creators of the show were the final say/judges in this. If they feel it fit their story the best, they--essentially--signed off on his cue. DONE.


----------



## Loïc D

SimonViklund said:


> Anyway, I'm glad to see that the members of this forum show more solidarity among composers and stay clear of the conspiracy theories.



That’s the least we can do.
We’re all gentlemen here after all, aren’t we ? 

Anyway, whether you like the winners’ entries or not, I think we can all thank @Spitfire Team @paulthomson @christianhenson for giving us the unique opportunity to score something on such hi quality material. 

(this is really different from the student movies / homemade trekking video / friendmade Lego animation movies I use to score for :D)

Now it’s time for your holidays !...


----------



## Mike Greene

Andrajas said:


> While I have nothing against the winner, I do wonder tho why it was in this case ok to manipulate the sound fx, when it was stated that it was not ok to do so?


I don't mean this to sound condescending, but there's a lesson to be learned in this. I can name dozens of times I did things a client specifically said they didn't want, and I won (got the gig or got a theme/cue/jingle approved) because of it.

Knowing how many entries there would be (although I had no idea it would be 11,000!), had I entered myself, my first thought would have been that I need to zig while everyone else is zagging. Mind you, it takes a certain amount of arrogance to assume they'll like my zigging and see past a few rule violations, but I like my odds even less if I'm one of 11,000 zaggers.


----------



## Cathbad

Typical heart-on-sleeve honesty from @christianhenson 


THIS is the gold nugget here...


christianhenson said:


> BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
> 
> "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???"




The lesson apparently to be learned from this competition is to give the finger to rules, genres (changing or otherwise), briefs, reference tracks and established conventions. 

I, for one, will be writing whatever I goddamn well want in future, according to my own judgement and the strange noises in my head. Nuts to what some tone deaf guy with a camera wants. He doesn't know the difference between an F# and a cherry pie.


----------



## SamC

Mike Greene said:


> I don't mean this to sound condescending, but there's a lesson to be learned in this. I can name dozens of times I did things a client specifically said they didn't want, and I won (got the gig or got a theme/cue/jingle approved) because of it.
> 
> Knowing how many entries there would be (although I had no idea it would be 11,000!), had I entered myself, my first thought would have been that I need to zig while everyone else is zagging. Mind you, it takes a certain amount of arrogance to assume they'll like my zigging and see past a few rule violations, but I like my odds even less if I'm one of 11,000 zaggers.



And I’ve found my intuition is almost always right. My first thought was the same; “I need to zig.” But I doubted it and came to the competition about 3 weeks too late and ended up zagging. You usually know in your heart of hearts that what you’re doing doesn’t have that “edge.”

But, c’est la vie! I quite like my entry after all and will use it for another cue. The best man won!


----------



## Jon Meyer

christianhenson said:


> I'm overjoyed by the VI-C reaction here. Fuck me have you seen the YouTube comments
> 
> YOWZERS
> 
> I've not been involved in this competition but I would if given the chance scream out to the haters and say
> 
> WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS
> 
> Being different fucking matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape shit other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000
> 
> ELEVEN THOUSAND
> 
> People taking part.
> 
> Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry
> 
> Tarrantino
> Ferrara
> Lee
> De Palma
> Scorsese
> Allen
> Wright
> 
> ???
> 
> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.
> 
> This is the fundamental error we so often make, we judge ourselves in the minds of ourselves as composers, not with empathy towards the people who's work we're paid to enhance, who's stories we're paid to help tell.
> 
> BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
> 
> This is real life, I remember the first 5 years of my professional life saying "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???" for every single job I went up for....
> 
> So for me, a massive lesson to be learned.... probably not least by us at Spitfire.
> 
> Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.
> 
> Love to you all for the intelligence!
> 
> C. x


This is gonna make one helluva vlog! Don't hold back!


----------



## Mike Greene

christianhenson said:


> I'm overjoyed by the VI-C reaction here. Fuck me have you seen the YouTube comments
> 
> YOWZERS


I just looked and ... yowzers indeed!

I think a lot of people there just don't get it. They have a very set idea of how shows should be scored and deviation from that model is verboten. The same sort of thinking that would say, _"Rap isn't music!"_



christianhenson said:


> I've not been involved in this competition but I would if given the chance scream out to the haters and say
> 
> WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS
> 
> Being different fucking matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape shit other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000
> 
> ELEVEN THOUSAND
> 
> People taking part.
> 
> Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry
> 
> Tarrantino
> Ferrara
> Lee
> De Palma
> Scorsese
> Allen
> Wright
> Greene
> 
> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.


Exactly. So I added my name to your list of directors. 

Plus, David's entry isn't just outside the box, it's really well done in a legit sense as well.



christianhenson said:


> BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
> 
> This is real life, I remember the first 5 years of my professional life saying "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???" for every single job I went up for....


Sadly, it took me more than 5 years to learn that. I wish I could go back in a time machine and tell Early Years Mike to stop "playing it safe."


----------



## Michael Stibor

christianhenson said:


> I'm overjoyed by the VI-C reaction here. Fuck me have you seen the YouTube comments
> 
> YOWZERS
> 
> I've not been involved in this competition but I would if given the chance scream out to the haters and say
> 
> WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS
> 
> Being different fucking matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape shit other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000
> 
> ELEVEN THOUSAND
> 
> People taking part.
> 
> Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry
> 
> Tarrantino
> Ferrara
> Lee
> De Palma
> Scorsese
> Allen
> Wright
> 
> ???
> 
> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.
> 
> This is the fundamental error we so often make, we judge ourselves in the minds of ourselves as composers, not with empathy towards the people who's work we're paid to enhance, who's stories we're paid to help tell.
> 
> BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
> 
> This is real life, I remember the first 5 years of my professional life saying "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???" for every single job I went up for....
> 
> So for me, a massive lesson to be learned.... probably not least by us at Spitfire.
> 
> Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.
> 
> Love to you all for the intelligence!
> 
> C. x


You’re kidding right? I mean no professional director in their right mind would ever put out that scene with that music, let alone Scorsese or Tarantino.

For the record, I liked David’s entry. I thought it was funny, and original. Especially compared to the many generic action score entries I watched. But I also don’t think the music worked with the scene. I thought it was intended to be a tongue in cheek take on the whole “genre” aspect, done just for fun. Nothing wrong with that, but I suspect even David didn’t think he had a chance of winning (which is why he had no issues with altering the audio).

It sucks talking about this, because anything that’s said either comes across as sour grapes, or negativity towards David or his entry, and it’s not. It’s not his “fault” he won, and in fact, good for him (seriously) but I think many are disappointed that the important characteristics of a score that we all assumed would be important to the judges (such as spotting, dynamics, tone, pacing, enhancing the scene, etc.) were overlooked completely for what is essentially a gimmick.

So yeah, originality is important, being different is important. But so are all the other parts of scoring that were intentionally overlooked in the winning entry. I think that’s what disappoints people the most.

Oh well. Everyone will get over it. Tomorrow is a new day, and this is just a sample library competition. No one died, no one lost money. And I still enjoyed the process so all is not lost.


----------



## Eptesicus

I'm going to post my thoughts. They will probably go down like a lead balloon here because unless you are fawning over all the winners with adoring praise and congratulations you are seen as a sore loser.

Anyway, i do quite like the winner's submission and congratulations to David for winning. It is pretty entertaining and well produced.

However i would not have chosen it as my winner. We are told to be different all the time by the "industry", yet almost every single piece of media we digest has the same tried and tested music put to it. Often it is with something _slightly_ new or different but it ultimately remains the same. Different, simply for the sake of being different is not an artistic or clever way to approach things in my opinion. Someone compared this to the bleeding fingers competition, but i think that is a VERY poor comparison. That had virtually no rules and was not to be scored to picture. This was different and whilst the winning submission was relatively amusing, for me, it just came across as a pastiche or mickey take. If i was watching that episode of Westworld and that played, i would honestly think "wtf" and it would completely remove me from the show. I would be willing to bet my house that it would never have seriously been considered for the show either.

So therefore is David's music cool/well done/amusing/different? Yes. In a way, although it is also rather generic and derivative in many ways too. When i first heard it in this thread a few weeks ago, i immediately thought it would be disqualified because the opening is basically a carbon copy of the song 'Clubbed to Death' (heard in the Matrix). This could be a coincidence, but then no one who works in the industry (especially someone who was a sound editor on one of the Matrix films) would not know and would not recognize that track. It has been so widely used in the media, you would likely be hard pushed for someone of a certain generation not to recognize it if pointed out.

Did it fit the scene and enhance the picture? For me and thousands of others who are having their say on various social media right now, *absolutely not. *

This leads me onto my next point, and to why i am skeptical as to whether all the submissions were listened to in full. If being different and creative was the absolute key to winning, why were a few/most of the runner's up pretty generic? I have listened to loads of entries that were objectively better in almost every metric than some of the runners up. One is really badly mixed with the existing dialogue/sfx and a few aren't particularly well done (in terms of virtual orchestration/getting a convincing performance out of samples).

I therefore find it hard to connect the thought process for the selection of the runners up with the thought process behind selecting the winner. I have watched many that were far more inventive, or that offered something very different to those in the runners up selection. So which is it Spitfire? Does "inventiveness" rule the day or not?

I was genuinely expecting to be wowed by the 6 winners, as i normally am with these competitions (the bleeding fingers winning submission was phenomenal). I thought i would be watching them all thinking "****, i need to get loads better". I did not experience that and to that, i am honestly very surprised.

So to put it bluntly, Spitfire/the judges got this wrong. I have never seen such a large backlash. Yes there are always some negative comments. You can't please everyone. But the fact that i would say 90%+ of the Youtube comments are negative and that the dislikes are strongly outweighing the likes, signals that this isnt sour grapes. The comradery over this has generally been really good, right up until the winners were announced. This is not because people are bitter. Like myself, most were all expecting to be bowled over by the winners. The reaction being seen right now is exactly because people have NOT been bowled over by the winners.


----------



## bengoss

Alex Fraser said:


> As it was with the BF competition: The judges are always looking for something to come out of the left field and surprise. There's a lesson to be learned here I guess.
> 
> I wonder if they'll run another...


I can’t agree. The BF competition was not for picture so you could’ve come up with anything using the samples. This is much more delicate where you must follow the scene and write something that will support and work.


----------



## Rory

I think that the criticisms of Spitfire are meritless and that the criticism of the judges, Abrams in particular, are misguided.

Spitfire engaged reputable people to judge the competition and put up its entire virtual instrument library as a prize. No doubt it was involved in screening entries, but that is bound to be a rough and ready process with 11,000 entrants. What critics are really suggesting is that Spitfire should run a much more limited competition, perhaps by invitation or by requiring an established reputation.

The arts are a small world and demanding no prior association between judges and competitors is completely unrealistic. The judges of the Booker Prize almost certainly know many of the authors whose work is on the long and short lists. The Academy Awards, and presumably the BAFTAs, for music and sound design are voted on by people who in many cases not only know the nominees personally, but have worked with them.

That leaves the disagreement over the merits of the winner's entry. This is completely normal, but surely the debate could be conducted on a less personal level than is currently apparent, although in the case of YouTube that may be more than one can expect


----------



## Mukkenerd

Dear David,

I already responded to your entry with a little critique before the announcement of the westworld competition. Now after reading the bloodbath on youtube i am really curious about some things. I thought you were an amateur musician, a bedroom producer guy, which completely explained to me at that time, why your harmonies in your entry are like they are and why your approach is what it is. I told you that the 8bit/chiptune thing is an easy gimmick to use in order to sound different because there are probably millions of these kind of tunes on the internet. Somehow it seems to be still fresh and considered creative. This is really a bummer since i am really into creativity and the main concept behind its meaning. It`s frustratinig to see that in comparison to the masses, it seems to be that i am the one who misunderstands this whole concept. Just for the fun of it, listen to all of my videos on my channel, at least the first 3 minutes (usually the poeple have only time for 1 minute tops), and than tell me if you still feel that the word creativity still has the same meaning to you. Maybe it`s the same, maybe different. Just give it a try.

Since i am completely new to the soundtrack/classical thing, I started out 3 Months ago, i had no real hopes of getting anywhere in this contest, it was the first time i worked with moving pictures. After visiting your IMDb page i was surprised that you have been around about 20 years in good old hollywood. You can imagine, how this hit me like a truck. A veteran sound designer with a big resume and than an entry like this, this couldn`t be true. I mean, i am in the biz too for over 20 years, but not in THE biz, i am a slow burn. I can`t judge the work you have been doing in this years, because i don`t know it, but i know your entry. Sadly, it reminds me of entries i have heard 10 years ago in german music amateur forums. You don`t have to believe me, that`s ok, but this is the reality and not here to diss you. You did your job, you put effort into this, maybe heart and you`ve won. That`s great, without any resentment. But from a guy who worked so long in THE industry, a guy who is and was fortunate enough to even be in this position, to hear this entry, i was dissapointed, to say at least.

I know so many artists, that barely can afford their living, but are so talented and so in another league, that it baffles me everytime when i hear people from deep within the scene that still manage to be way behind the pulse of innovation, but still manage to work and get payed real money. But that`s the game, so game on!

It`s nothing personal David, it isn`t, it`s a critique on the conecption of music and especially creativity by the masses and so the industry.


----------



## Eptesicus

It looks like they have disabled the like/dislike counter on the youtube results video it seems.

That is monumentally sad..


----------



## Michael Stibor

Eptesicus said:


> ... But the fact that i would say 90%+ of the Youtube comments are negative and that the dislikes are strongly outweighing the likes, signals that this isnt sour grapes. The comradery over this has generally been really good, right up until the winners were announced. This is not because people are bitter.


Well said. I loved the community spirit that was rampant on this forum and other when it came to this competition. A shame it all ended this way.


----------



## SamC

bengoss said:


> I won’t say HATERS, but mostly music processionals and their opinion.



If they’re professionals, it’s a weird way of showing it. In order to be a professional, you have to act like one too. That comment section is a witch hunt and a forensic analysis of the winners IMDB page.

It is toxic at best and professionals would know the nature of subjectivity and how to handle a little rejection.


----------



## Marsen

I don't get it.
So much pure envy and disappointment on YouTube.
And all this for a competition, which should be joy and lot' s of fun.

And now they even blame Spitfire for that.
Instead they should thank them for the opportunity to learn something out of it.
It's a childish behaviour imho.

Again, congrats David. You did a great job! And also thanks to Paul & Christian.


----------



## Dale Turner

Michael Stibor said:


> it’s not



Sorry! Couldn't resist!


----------



## Jon K

Im really surprised Spitfire had such a short video announcing the winners. It would have been really beneficial to all of us to hear how and why they chose their winner and runner ups. The Adam Audio competition had like a 20 min video with the judge.


----------



## Eptesicus

Jon K said:


> Im really surprised Spitfire had such a short video announcing the winners. It would have been really beneficial to all of us to hear how and why they chose their winner and runner ups. The Adam Audio competition had like a 20 min video with the judge.



Probably because trying to explain their pick for the winner and runners up wouldn't have made any sense and would have been contradictory.


----------



## Alex Fraser

bengoss said:


> I can’t agree. The BF competition was not for picture so you could’ve come up with anything using the samples. This is much more delicate where you must follow the scene and write something that will support and work.


Absolutely agree, but the winner was always going to be someone who didn't follow the straight ahead orchestra/damage route. It's that fine line: Write something that suits the brief but also different enough to capture the ear of the judges. Almost like you're taking it seriously..and not..at the same time.

Anyway..that comments section made for very depressing reading. There's even a bunch of gifs to go with it. I feel sorry for David - it probably sours what should have been a highlight. I hope he can ignore all the nasty stuff and enjoy the new libraries!


----------



## Eptesicus

Alex Fraser said:


> Absolutely agree, but the winner was always going to be someone who didn't follow the straight ahead orchestra/damage route. It's that fine line:



But then you look at the runners up and that line of judging makes no sense. There were far more different (and better executed i might add) entries. If inventiveness and the genre change was the most important thing, many of the runner up picks make no sense.


----------



## davidson

I just showed the winning clip to my non-composer friends. They all absolutely loved it. I mean *really* loved it. So, who's wrong?


----------



## Dale Turner

Eptesicus said:


> But then you look at the runners up and that line of judging makes no sense. There were far more different (and better executed i might add) entries. If inventiveness and the genre change was the most important thing, many of the runner up picks make no sense.



I'm sure this isn't the case... but just _maybe_ David was in a tie with the another person? They did say "in a tie, jams would be judged based on creativity alone." I'm paraphrasing, of course.


----------



## Supremo

Let's admit it, the problem here is that most of the participants (me included) took this competition much more seriously than the jury apparently did. We did want to score something that in a real film production world would have a single chance to appear in the final cut. Yes, most of the participants did follow the "genre changing" cue and tried to come up with inventive ideas, but kept in mind that any such originality should be appropriate and reasonable enough to be in line with scene's overall mood. 

You cannot just throw Joe Cocker's "Leave Your Hat On" song into the "Schindler's List" movie and call it an original / out-of-box / standing-out choice. A really good choice is the one that is BOTH original and appropriate. I can hardly imagine how appopriate the audience of the dark, thought provoking sci-fi action drama would find a sudden appearance of Adam Sandler in the large cartoonish Spongebob costume as the main villain, manipulating all androids and triying to conquer the miserable futuristic world. Would Jonathan Nolan or J.J.Abrams ever take that course in their show-running process? Would Ramin Djawadi ever add donkey-farting sound effects or laughing trombones in the climactic moment of the criminal drama? The answer is obvious and I believe most of the participants also tried to follow that same principle: you cannot ruin the atmosphere of the show! Your originality should meet the audience perception of the show and not turn an R-rated HBO drama into a Nickelodeon thing for 5-year-old kids. 


Apparently, the jury and the entire Spitfire team had completely different views on this competition. 

Having said that, I sincerely congratulate David Kudell as he managed to get inside the jury's mind and come up with a winning material!


----------



## Eptesicus

Dale Turner said:


> I'm sure this isn't the case... but just _maybe_ David was in a tie with the another person? They did say "in a tie, jams would be judged based on creativity alone." I'm paraphrasing, of course.



I think you are missing the point of what i am saying.

If creativity and doing something different for the genre change is what won and what was the be all and end all (as Christian pointed out earlier in the thread) , why were some of the runners up fairly generic/did not really do anything with the genre change?

if that was the most important criteria, surely all 6 winners should have been doing something "out of the box"? There were certainly that many really good entries that did do something different, many of which were more competently scored and produced than some of the runners up were.


----------



## AndyP

Michael Stibor said:


> You’re kidding right? I mean no professional director in their right mind would ever put out that scene with that music, let alone Scorsese or Tarantino.
> 
> For the record, I liked David’s entry. I thought it was funny, and original. Especially compared to the many generic action score entries I watched. But I also don’t think the music worked with the scene. I thought it was intended to be a tongue in cheek take on the whole “genre” aspect, done just for fun. Nothing wrong with that, but I suspect even David didn’t think he had a chance of winning (which is why he had no issues with altering the audio).
> 
> It sucks talking about this, because anything that’s said either comes across as sour grapes, or negativity towards David or his entry, and it’s not. It’s not his “fault” he won, and in fact, good for him (seriously) but I think many are disappointed that the important characteristics of a score that we all assumed would be important to the judges (such as spotting, dynamics, tone, pacing, enhancing the scene, etc.) were overlooked completely for what is essentially a gimmick.
> 
> So yeah, originality is important, being different is important. But so are all the other parts of scoring that were intentionally overlooked in the winning entry. I think that’s what disappoints people the most.
> 
> Oh well. Everyone will get over it. Tomorrow is a new day, and this is just a sample library competition. No one died, no one lost money. And I still enjoyed the process so all is not lost.


I think it's not about making a track for the video that would be used in the end.
I find, and this is my personal opinion, that creativity is manifold and if I am honest, breaking with conventions is the way to new shores.

I really had to smile when I saw David's contribution. 
A film is usually made into an experience through the music. Without music you have to create a very extraordinary film that works.
That's the great thing, make a horror movie with funny music, and the audience won't find it so bad anymore.
Make sad music into a funny movie and it will be tragicomic.
And to use a video game theme in this video is just brilliant!

I have seen and heard many great contributions. There were some highly professional compositions, technically good, excellent. Really exceptional were... few. 
I am honestly positively surprised that David's entry won. 

What does that tell me? It's the idea that counts, and that gives me hope in a world overloaded with "boring" mainstream.

I didn't notice anything else, not even read any YouTube comments. If someone doesn't understand the decision or wonders why a "out of context" entry wins, it's because it stands out from the many similar action tracks that many people have made for it. And the skills play less of a role (I don't want to judge David's skills with this  ).

I work in advertising, and mostly those who are brave and achieve something unusual, something that is contrary and attracts attention, win.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Alex Fraser said:


> I feel sorry for David - it probably sours what should have been a highlight. I hope he can ignore all the nasty stuff and enjoy the new libraries!


Im sure he’s fine. I would be. I’d be like _“Oh, y’all didn’t like my winning entry? Maybe I’ll write a new song about it with my new Spitfire libraries. ALL of them! So long suckers!”_.


----------



## Dale Turner

Eptesicus said:


> If creativity and doing something different... if that was the most important criteria...



None of us know what that ("most important criteria," in their view) is; just speculation, till we hear more deets. From peeps.


----------



## Eptesicus

Dale Turner said:


> None of us know what that ("most important criteria," in their view) is; just speculation, till we hear more deets. From peeps.



Read Christian's post earlier in this thread. He said

_"WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS

Being different ****** matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape **** other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000 "_

If that were the case, why did some fairly generic ones even make it to the final 6?


----------



## Cathbad

Marsen said:


> So much pure envy and disappointment on YouTube.



Yes, there is some. But I think it's mostly confusion.

Let's leave aside whether the winning cue is good or bad, or fitting or unsuitable. What puzzles me more is that there were rules and judging criteria for the competition that the winning entry (and a couple of runners-up) apparently didn't meet. But aren't we often told - including by one of the competition sponsors, here on this very thread - that work has to be delivered on brief, according to the client's specified requirements?

So there's a mixed message here. When the rules seem to be made up as we go along, people often get the suspicion that it's to hide an un-level playing field. And when the winner is an industry veteran with a connection - however tenuous - to one of the judges, it's only natural that people connect these dots and question the result.

BTW I thought @Eptesicus's critique was fair and not at all impolite.


----------



## Dale Turner

Eptesicus said:


> Read Christian's post earlier in this thread. He said
> 
> _"WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS
> 
> Being different ****** matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape **** other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000 "_
> 
> If that were the case, why did some fairly generic ones even make it to the final 6?



I did.

He wrote "I've not been involved in this competition" in his opening sentence. (That was kind of a surprise, based on SA published verbiage...)

I read his post as mainly encouraging people to step up (in one form or another), nothing more.

I don't agree with his directors (Tarantino, Scorsese, DePalma, etc.) comment at all though.


----------



## MarcHedenberg

I mean I really liked what David did. I had already seen the submission earlier and it brought a smile to my face. It does make me reconsider my approach to standing out as a composer.

Ultimately, it would have been really disappointing if the winner was aping a token Zimmer score. We should all push ourselves to mould new sounds that define us as composers.


----------



## Michael Stibor

AndyP said:


> I think it's not about making a track for the video that would be used in the end.
> I find, and this is my personal opinion, that creativity is manifold and if I am honest, breaking with conventions is the way to new shores.
> 
> I really had to smile when I saw David's contribution.
> A film is usually made into an experience through the music. Without music you have to create a very extraordinary film that works.
> That's the great thing, make a horror movie with funny music, and the audience won't find it so bad anymore.
> Make sad music into a funny movie and it will be tragicomic.
> And to use a video game theme in this video is just brilliant!
> 
> I have seen and heard many great contributions. There were some highly professional compositions, technically good, excellent. Really exceptional were... few.
> I am honestly positively surprised that David's entry won.
> 
> What does that tell me? It's the idea that counts, and that gives me hope in a world overloaded with "boring" mainstream.
> 
> I didn't notice anything else, not even read any YouTube comments. If someone doesn't understand the decision or wonders why a "out of context" entry wins, it's because it stands out from the many similar action tracks that many people have made for it. And the skills play less of a role (I don't want to judge David's skills with this  ).
> 
> I work in advertising, and mostly those who are brave and achieve something unusual, something that is contrary and attracts attention, win.


Nah, that’s an oversimplification of the issues people have with it. Everyone was expecting the winning entry to be original. It was stated in multiple comments here (and elsewhere) in the Westworld threads that the winning entry would have to standout and be original. Originality is obvious. That part no one is debating.

The issue is that the winning entry doesn’t work as a legitimate score for this scene. I don’t even think that’s my personal opinion. It’s so obvious that I have to assume that’s a fact.

You work in advertising, so I assume you must know this. Yes originality is more captivating than something generic, but it _still has to work_.

Let’s say you’re working on a car commercial for Lincoln. You have Matthew McConaughey driving down the coast at dusk, looking all debonair in his expensive suit and gold watch. His voice over mentions something serious about his love of the history of Lincoln cars and his passion for driving. Then the music comes on, and it’s this comical 8-bit music track. Are you seriously going to accept that and show it to Lincoln? Uh, no.


----------



## Cathbad

Dale Turner said:


> I did.
> 
> He wrote "I've not been involved in this competition" in his opening sentence. (That was kind of a surprise, based on SA published verbiage...)
> 
> I read his post as mainly encouraging people to step up (in one form or another), nothing more.
> 
> I don't agree with his directors (Tarantino, Scorsese, DePalma, etc.) comment at all though.



Agreed. I think criticism of Spitfire is somewhat misplaced because they didn't have a judge on the panel. However, I do think their legion of interns should have filtered out the winning entry for disqualification based on altered audio from the clip. That's what the rules of the competition said and one can't wriggle around it by claiming it was artistic individuality and being different. Double standards annoy people, hence the spiky comments on YT.

And about the directors, yeah I can't imagine even Quentin Tarantino picking a Gameboy Zelda *ahem* pastiche with a big chunk of Matrix in it.


----------



## easyrider

People are allowed to have an opinion...The winning entry can be deemed to be unsatisfactory to audiences regardless of what the judges think....

I genuinely believe that spitfire did not expect 11,000 entries and winged it...

The runners up are far from “original“ and “standouty“ and the lack of analysis and feedback in the announcement video speaks volumes....

There is no such thing as bad publicity and I’m surprised spitfire have disabled comments on instagram and likes and dislikes on YouTube....

If you don’t want discourse with your customers or potential customers and subscribers to your channel why bother with a competition in the first place?

Not everyone will like your videos....and it perfectly fine imo to voice your opinion wether it be positive or negative....the notion that people are salty as they are sore losers is a cop out....

Most people who entered didn’t for one second expect to win....and that includes David himself...

But in competition rules are rules....if rules have been broken then it should have been a free for all manipulation from the start....or its unfair....


----------



## fish_hoof

Eptesicus said:


> But then you look at the runners up and that line of judging makes no sense. There were far more different (and better executed i might add) entries. If inventiveness and the genre change was the most important thing, many of the runner up picks make no sense.



I agree with this. Davids winning entry? Gold. It was the first one i listened to front to back. Job well done. But i agree with you... seems like there was a miss with the runner ups. Thats my opinion. I’m allowed to have it. But... thats also with anything right? 

Opinions are like butt holes... we all have one. 

At the end of the day, I'm actually happy with what i wrote and i think it stands up. Whether it won or not is irrelevant. Im happy with my compositions, and thats what should be important with all of this. Are you happy? If not, how can you grow?


----------



## cola2410

I'm sorry I don't really support this bloodbath conversations but I'd like to use the chance to congratulate David and also point others' attention to the runner-ups instead. Actually they are all leftfield so it makes no sense at all trying to convince ourselves it relates to the real job in any way. When I did mine I've already heard David's submission and immediately knew it should be at least among runner-ups but I'm actually disappointed about the other five because I heard much stronger scores and some of them were really straight to the point. I thought it could be good to have at least one as a runner-up who actually tried to score having all the scene background and "vibe". Composers need to support the visuals and sometimes bring something on top that enriches the them or even changes the whole atmosphere. And I'm not seeing that unfortunately. Btw, my motivation was different as I'm using mine as a demo.


----------



## gspot

11.000 entries from 11.000 people hoping and dreaming to have their moment, too. And Spitfire Audio spends 08:36 minutes of one guy sitting in the regular studio to celebrate the creativity, variety and efforts of 11.000 people. It means they spend 0.04 seconds per competition entry. No Jury intro. No honorable mentions. No live conference with anybody. Just a seemingly bored guy with average polite phrases counting down names and saying goodbye to the audience before the winning clip had even started. It is telling. They spend hours of video time to sell libraries and to offer a branded perspective on how to score a movie with their products. But they treat 11.000 peoples efforts (I would guess 2 to 4 days per entry) like some unimportant affair that can be dealt with during a lunch break. 

And now they even block the like/dislike display on the video and seemingly censor comments. Well ... what can I say? Why did they even start this? Why do they communicate so badly? What do they think will be the impact on their brands reputation? WTF?


----------



## Jon K

I really just love having competitions like this its so much more fun to write with a certain goal in mind and other visual elements.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Cathbad said:


> Agreed. I think criticism of Spitfire is somewhat misplaced because they didn't have a judge on the panel. However, I do think their legion of interns should have filtered out the winning entry for disqualification based on altered audio from the clip. That's what the rules of the competition said and one can't wriggle around it by claiming it was artistic individuality and being different. Double standards annoy people, hence the spiky comments on YT.
> 
> And about the directors, yeah I can't imagine even Quentin Tarantino picking a Gameboy Zelda *ahem* pastiche with a big chunk of Matrix in it.


I question how much input the celebrity judges really had in this competition.

At the same time, I saw The Rise of Skywalker, and knowing JJs penchant for questionable creative choices, maybe this all makes perfect sense.


----------



## Jacob Fanto

Just one aspect I find a little disturbing about the competition is how lackluster the results video was. I mean, if you're going to advertise these big name composers, directors, and producers as the grand jury of this competition, at least give your competitors some word from them. I would've loved to see Ramin, Abrams, Lisa Joy, and Jonathan Nolan on a Zoom call or something discussing/analyzing the competition, the judging process, and the top 6. Sure, they're busy people, but I mean c'mon how much can _really_ be happening among all this COVID craziness? I'm just surprised more people are upset about David's entry than they are about this.


----------



## Cathbad

christianhenson said:


> Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.



Soon this will feel like a distant dream. Until then, may you rest in a deep and dreamless slumber.


----------



## DUBFRED

David Kudell said:


> There are some conspiracy theorists that looked up my IMDB and found that one of my gigs when I was an assistant sound editor 15 years ago was on MI:3. I had to explain that us lowly assistant editors never worked with the directors, and assure them that JJ Abrams has no idea who I am.


Congratulations on winning! It's really pathetic how people have resorted to dropping nasty comments and stupid conspiracies. Ignore the idiots. Well done man!


----------



## easyrider

DUBFRED said:


> Congratulations on winning! It's really pathetic how people have resorted to dropping nasty comments and stupid conspiracies. Ignore the idiots. Well done man!



If someone doesn’t like or rate the winning video they are now an idiot?


----------



## Eptesicus

Jacob Fanto said:


> Just one aspect I find a little disturbing about the competition is how lackluster the results video was. I mean, if you're going to advertise these big name composers, directors, and producers as the grand jury of this competition, at least give your competitors some word from them. I would've loved to see Ramin, Abrams, Lisa Joy, and Jonathan Nolan on a Zoom call or something discussing/analyzing the competition, the judging process, and the top 6. Sure, they're busy people, but I mean c'mon how much can _really_ be happening among all this COVID craziness? I'm just surprised more people are upset about David's entry than they are about this.



I did mention this quite early on in this thread. I think its bizarre as well. I thought we might at least get a short clip from Ramin or something. 

I was expecting an hour long type thing.


----------



## Eptesicus

fish_hoof said:


> I agree with this. Davids winning entry? Gold. It was the first one i listened to front to back. Job well done. But i agree with you... seems like there was a miss with the runner ups. Thats my opinion. I’m allowed to have it. But... thats also with anything right?
> 
> Opinions are like butt holes... we all have one.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'm actually happy with what i wrote and i think it stands up. Whether it won or not is irrelevant. Im happy with my compositions, and thats what should be important with all of this. Are you happy? If not, how can you grow?



I think the runners up selection really does highlight that either:

A.The initial team they got to filter them had no clue what they were doing and got bored/couldn't be bothered. On twitter they said they had 65 people looking through them....

Or

B. They did not listen to all 11,000


----------



## Eptesicus

easyrider said:


> I genuinely believe that spitfire did not expect 11,000 entries and winged it...



This, unfortunately, is likely the truth.


----------



## gspot

christianhenson said:


> Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.
> 
> Love to you all for the intelligence!
> 
> C. x



Regards to the social media team. Blocking Dislike displays and comments is just stupid and achieves more anger. They will have to deal with the obvious disrespect of the efforts of the competition participants. The Subtext to the video said "grab some popcorn". I don´t know of a popcorn packaging that last you a mere 08:36. This is slapping clients and prospects in the face!


----------



## Robert_G

Michael Stibor said:


> You’re kidding right? I mean no professional director in their right mind would ever put out that scene with that music, let alone Scorsese or Tarantino.



100% Agree. I have nothing against the winning entry, but at the end of the day, the winning entry would have been better used on Adam Sandler's 'Pixels'. I can't think of anything else recent that it would work with it.


----------



## Eptesicus

gspot said:


> Regards to the social media team. Blocking Dislike displays and comments is just stupid and achieves more anger. They will have to deal with the obvious disrespect of the efforts of the competition participants. The Subtext to the video said "grab some popcorn". I don´t know of a popcorn packaging that last you a mere 08:36. This is slapping clients and prospects in the face!



Maybe they were referring to the incoming bloodbath in the youtube comments with the popcorn comment


----------



## col

Well done and congrats Dave !


----------



## DUBFRED

easyrider said:


> If someone doesn’t like or rate the winning video they are now an idiot?


That is not what I wrote. I did not call anyone who disliked the winning score an idiot. I was merely remarking that people have simply decided to leave pointless disparaging comments on @David Kudell 's YouTube channel which is downright unpleasant. Stop putting words into my mouth.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Robert_G said:


> 100% Agree. I have nothing against the winning entry, but at the end of the day, the winning entry would have been better used on Adam Sandler's 'Pixels'. I can't think of anything else recent that it would work with it.


Agreed! It’s not about the quality of the music of winning entry. It’s about it being inappropriate for the scene.


----------



## PaulBrimstone

Well, the next Spitfire scoring competition is going to attract at least 10,999 Super Mario 8-bit entries. I'll be sure to go ostinato braaaaam shit instead. Gotta stand out...


----------



## Fitz

Cut the winner some slack, all of you. It doesn't matter if you think it's shit or not. To berate his music is wrong. I do agree that Spitfire botched this and should have seen it coming. This would never air on HBO, but not because it's bad music. It just doesn't fit this scene. But it is a bold take, and that's what it take to win these competitions.


----------



## fakemaxwell

Great job, David. Can't really imagine complaining about the winner. I was much more disappointed in the runners up as a whole, however any comments about judges "thinking before the viagra wore off" are completely unacceptable.

All that said, ABSOLUTE L O L at the people claiming that because David worked as an audio assistant over a decade ago he's a "big shot Hollywood guy with connections." Not how the industry works, at all. There's not a director/producer on earth who cares about who's dumping the DAT production audio. There is virtually no career path from audio assistant-> composer that isn't just starting over from the beginning.


----------



## HardyP

at least, in the light of the YT comments, @christianhenson and @paulthomson have to revise their comment about VI-C being a toxic place ... seems we have a successor for that trophy!

Also my kudos to Dave - I‘d never thought, that he would made it, but it was the only entry I was remembering... so the choice defenitely makes sense!


----------



## gspot

Last thing to say. It is not a witch hunt on the youtube channel (a word by the way that we all should refuse to use by now). It is the reaction of people putting effort into something and dreaming of getting a little bit of fame, too. It is 11.000 people with their vanity, hopes and ideas. They wait for the celebration of the winners and expect to find a piece of themselves within the celebrated (and being told to grab popcorn they expect something lively and lasting and with a runtime that allows for the lustful consumption of it). This is very human and I cannot find something bad in it. To treat this with a super cold video that even within the realm of unprofessional "lets get this over with"-videos easily stands out causes such reactions. And all the people still within their anger are witty and quite polite. Again: Communicate "We have 11.000 entries ... we need more time". Found a "Movie scorers of the world"-community. Present a decent hour of celebratory video. And you are fine. Do it like this - you get hurt - by massively loosing clients and fans at the least.


----------



## cug

Mike Greene said:


> The winner is our very own @David Kudell!


Congratulations, David!


----------



## Kery Michael

Congrats to David for winning! It's a really well mixed and produced piece. Personally, I thought the "Mario eating a mushroom" sound effect that pops up throughout was a little much. But it transitioned nicely back and forth from orchestral and 8 bit sounds. That was interesting.

Also, I think I preferred Tom Recknell's and Kacper Stachowiac's pieces a little better. Especially Kacper's heavy synth rock I thought was very good and that it fit the mood of the video better.

Much thanks to Spitfire and the crew for putting this together. If they wanted controversy with their pick, well they certainly got it!


----------



## Eptesicus

HardyP said:


> at least, in the light of the YT comments, @christianhenson and @paulthomson have to revise their comment about VI-C being a toxic place ... seems we have a successor for that trophy!



Maybe they should check their hubris..  

Maybe the reaction isn't "toxic". Maybe they are just wrong on this occasion?


----------



## Cathbad

Eptesicus said:


> I think the runners up selection really does highlight that either:
> 
> A.The initial team they got to filter them has no clue what they were doing and got bored/couldn't be bothered.
> 
> Or
> 
> B. They did not listen to all 11,000



Several commenters on YT mentioned that YT's own analytics showed that no one outside their own country (not USA or UK) had listened to their submission. I've no idea if that's true or not, but taking the comments at face value, it does raise a question about the judging process.

This segues into a wider point about Spitfire as a company. I don't know Christian Henson personally, but I get a very positive impression from his videos. He's a very honest and funny man, and talks about personal stuff in a way that is often very touching and resonates with most of us, I suspect. His music isn't what I would write myself, but I do appreciate the voice he's found for his compositions and the philosophy behind it.

Then there's Spitfire products. The company has yet to convince me to part with any money. Some of their stuff seems slapdash/unfinished, or has serious flaws that put me off an otherwise nice product. And they all tend to lean somewhat towards a certain style of scoring. I'll gladly trade special articulations and effects for a more day-to-day versatile product that nails the basics. CSS vs SCS is the quintessential example. 

Something about Spitfire's business practice seems a bit sharp to me. It makes me take a step back and pause to consider if I'm missing something or if the Emperor really is naked instead of wearing his New Clothes. I get an impression of being hard-sell hustled. I don't get that from other companies who've received my custom and customer satisfaction. And I'll name them. Audio Imperia, Embertone, 8Dio, Fluffy Audio, Cinematic Studio Series and Orchestral Tools. I also get a good feeling about Strezov, although I'm yet to buy anything.


----------



## tebling

Given the very deliberate choice of scene ("genre change!") I thought it was pretty obvious that the producers were hunting for something wild and off the rails. If they were really wanting Oscar worthy soundtrack material they would have chosen a scene to match the "seriousness" that everyone around here seems to be so obsessed with.

When I heard David's entry, I knew it had a good chance of winning because it seemed obvious that they were begging us to do something wildly creative.

I also think the conspiracy theories and complaints related to David being "in the industry" are frankly ridiculous. Guess what - ten years ago I worked in VFX on some big movies and do my connections extend to directors of those films? Not in the least. People need to realize that Hollywood is a massive industry and it doesn't work that way.

I'm personally grateful to Spitfire for giving us all the chance to work with a genuine, modern, high production value sequence. I learned a lot about scoring to picture, discovered some new tricks to add to my workflow, got cozy with some libraries I hadn't used much, made some fun music, and generally had a blast.

If you participated, gave it your best, and learned something in the process, then you also "won".


----------



## Michael Stibor

Fitz said:


> Cut the winner some slack, all of you. It doesn't matter if you think it's shit or not. To berate his music is wrong. I do agree that Spitfire botched this and should have seen it coming. This would never air on HBO, but not because it's bad music. It just doesn't fit this scene. But it is a bold take, and that's what it take to win these competitions.


I haven’t seen anyone saying anything worse than what you just said. I think everyone feels the same. And there’s no berating his music. Just the decision to have it win.


----------



## ThomCSounds

Guys, the contest isn't rigged. I'm myself friends with some reptilian illuminati flying crocodiles of the apocalypse that are, as you know, friends with J.J. and I didn't win! I also didn't take part in the contest but that has NOTHING to do with it! 

Congrats David! Just have a good laugh with the million samples you're gonna go through now!


----------



## Zedcars

God I’m so ashamed to be a composer right now with all those whining negative voices on YouTube and Insta. They are just making a load of crap up about a conspiracy! P-lease just be happy for the guy and go and write some more tunes. Why can’t people just be positive and show some encouragement? It’s bad enough in the world right now with so many people suffering. Yeah, I’m being a preachy little biatch...


----------



## peakles

Congrats David! Well done!!!


----------



## MusicalG

Ok, my first post on this group, its a great forum and thank you for having me, just my take on this whole situation, I have been a musician and songwriter/performer for around 30 years now, I was a street musician for ten years or so, I have played some big stages and played to the bar staff in an empty pub, hoping the hell I am still going to get paid.
I have missed opportunities for instance, being due to play for Nina Simone in her hospitality tent, but getting arrested for being drunk and in capable the night before..... lets just say we live and learn.

Sorry I'll get to the point, 

I have always loved real strings, the theme to schindlers list being one of my favourites etc.
I have always wanted to get into tv/film scoring etc, 
I just missed out on a chance to have a go at scoring for this, it would have been my first ever attempt

So I wanted to see how it panned out etc, for knowledge and experience etc.

It makes me think of a story an old manager of mine told me, its kind of maybe fitting here 

So this guy applies for a job at a well known chewing gum factory near where I live as a sales rep.
I'll speed this up  

The interviewer poured a glass of water, and asked the applicant to sell him this Glass of water, as if this was the last glass of water on earth, and to make him feel like he really couldn't manage without it.

To cut a long story short, the applicant set the interviewers bin on fire  
He got the job for thinking outside of the box.

I have seen probably around 10 peoples videos up until now during this whole process) and the music kind of does what you would expect, generic almost, true to form, a tried and tested formula for the genre etc. 

They were all very similar to be fair and probably better than I could have done at this stage of my composing experience. 

This is only my personal opinion, I watched the winning entry, and my first thought, when the 80's type video game sound affects came in, WTF is this, I then thought, I would have probably tried to do something like the other 10 had done, without even being influenced by them, because thats what we expect, that is the norm etc, I then went over to the Youtube page and read all the comments, mostly people were making it clear they were not upset with the winning composer, until they found him on IMDB and I must admit I got wrapped up in it a bit, and thought that a Hollywood artist should not be entering a competition like this etc, but then I came here and got the full story and the truth, so I apologise for reacting without knowing all the facts, I guess its a bit like when someone who is maybe self taught, plays Beethoven and throws a blues turn around in to mix it up, some people would turn in their graves  

Its all music at the end of the day, did the video cause a reaction, yes it did in a huge way, * 8 bit * samples aside, there were some great bits in the music, one particular bit really built up excitement and made me feel slightly agitated but in a good way, its a chase scene after all, it did the job.

People will be pissed off because they don't necessarily think outside the box, I can understand it to a degree, its the way we have been conditioned 

I think if they had been sounds that didn't sound quite so much like video games I had actually played, but still had the 8 bit thing going on, it would have worked better, probably because I was racking my brains thinking, what bloody game from the 80's was that noise from again lol.

A big congratulations to David well done buddy, I hope peoples attitudes haven't ruined your moment too much :-/

thanks for listening everyone x


----------



## Eptesicus

MusicalG said:


> Ok, my first post on this group, its a great forum and thank you for having me, just my take on this whole situation, I have been a musician and songwriter/performer for around 30 years now, I was a street musician for ten years or so, I have played some big stages and played to the bar staff in an empty pub, hoping the hell I am still going to get paid.
> I have missed opportunities for instance, being due to play for Nina Simone in her hospitality tent, but getting arrested for being drunk and in capable the night before..... lets just say we live and learn.
> 
> Sorry I'll get to the point,
> 
> I have always loved real strings, the theme to schindlers list being one of my favourites etc.
> I have always wanted to get into tv/film scoring etc,
> I just missed out on a chance to have a go at scoring for this, it would have been my first ever attempt
> 
> So I wanted to see how it panned out etc, for knowledge and experience etc.
> 
> It makes me think of a story an old manager of mine told me, its kind of maybe fitting here
> 
> So this guy applies for a job at a well known chewing gum factory near where I live as a sales rep.
> I'll speed this up
> 
> The interviewer poured a glass of water, and asked the applicant to sell him this Glass of water, as if this was the last glass of water on earth, and to make him feel like he really couldn't manage without it.
> 
> To cut a long story short, the applicant set the interviewers bin on fire
> He got the job for thinking outside of the box.
> 
> I have seen probably around 10 peoples videos up until now during this whole process) and the music kind of does what you would expect, generic almost, true to form, a tried and tested formula for the genre etc.
> 
> They were all very similar to be fair and probably better than I could have done at this stage of my composing experience.
> 
> This is only my personal opinion, I watched the winning entry, and my first thought, when the 80's type video game sound affects came in, WTF is this, I then thought, I would have probably tried to do something like the other 10 had done, without even being influenced by them, because thats what we expect, that is the norm etc, I then went over to the Youtube page and read all the comments, mostly people were making it clear they were not upset with the winning composer, until they found him on IMDB and I must admit I got wrapped up in it a bit, and thought that a Hollywood artist should not be entering a competition like this etc, but then I came here and got the full story and the truth, so I apologise for reacting without knowing all the facts, I guess its a bit like when someone who is maybe self taught, plays Beethoven and throws a blues turn around in to mix it up, some people would turn in their graves
> 
> Its all music at the end of the day, did the video cause a reaction, yes it did in a huge way, * 8 bit * samples aside, there were some great bits in the music, one particular bit really built up excitement and made me feel slightly agitated but in a good way, its a chase scene after all, it did the job.
> 
> People will be pissed off because they don't necessarily think outside the box, I can understand it to a degree, its the way we have been conditioned
> 
> I think if they had been sounds that didn't sound quite so much like video games I had actually played, but still had the 8 bit thing going on, it would have worked better, probably because I was racking my brains thinking, what bloody game from the 80's was that noise from again lol.
> 
> A big congratulations to David well done buddy, I hope peoples attitudes haven't ruined your moment too much :-/
> 
> thanks for listening everyone x



This is assuming that slapping some 8 bit sound effects and a dab of bit crushing here and there is considered the height of musical innovation or "thinking out side the box".

We all get that it's different. We don't need that continually pointed out.

The debate is more centered around whether it was different AND worked with the scene. Thousands evidently dont think it did.


----------



## merty

David could have been given a special award+prize (cause he deserves it) instead of first place and all this negativity could have been avoided.


----------



## gspot

tebling said:


> If you participated, gave it your best, and learned something in the process, then you also "won".



Being Mr. Smartass here. If you participated, gave it your best and then experience this treated like a negligibility you "loose". Maybe a little motivation. Maybe a little faith in the musical world. Maybe even a little faith in yourself. I was very impressed by the amount and the quality of the entries. Sure. A lot of Taiko drums. A lot of pre-made-samples and phases. But also a ton of "serious" (I quote here your negative version of "serious"), original, creative and even queer stuff (for example the soprano singer version). I have seen the reactions of two of my friends taking part in the competition. They did not "win". They will stay away from competitions in general and spitfire in particular in the future.


----------



## artomatic

The most unique and craziest entry but yet memorable when I first saw/heard it.
Huge congrats, David. Well deserved!!


----------



## Mark Evans

easyrider said:


> If someone doesn’t like or rate the winning video they are now an idiot?



If they express their (imho) misguided opinions on the internet, well, yeah.

It's lucky the internet wasn't around when Tarantino used 'Stuck in the Middle with You' for the ear-surgery bit in Reservoir Dogs. All those Creedence Clearwater Revival purists having snowflake meltdowns ...


----------



## jcuno

David Kudell said:


> I'm so honored and humbled. And a bit in shock! There were so many amazing entries, kudos to everyone at Spitfire and the amazing judges for what must have been a tough judging process!



well deserved David. Congrats!


----------



## easyrider

Mark Evans said:


> If they express their (imho) misguided opinions on the internet, well, yeah.
> 
> It's lucky the internet wasn't around when Tarantino used 'Stuck in the Middle with You' for the ear-surgery bit in Reservoir Dogs. All those Creedence Clearwater Revival purists having snowflake meltdowns ...



There are many people who didn’t like it and voiced their opinions... why would these people suddenly all be misguided ?


----------



## pawelmorytko

First of all congratulations to the winner and runner ups! 

Second of all, it’s sad to be reminded how toxic composers can be.

Third of all, the winner’s genre change was a very interesting take on the scene. Made me think like I’m watching the scene from Aaron Paul’s PoV. Everyone saying how it didn’t fit the scene at all, does it not fit the scene because it’s not what you’re used to? (a.k.a. big blockbuster action score). Interestingly enough if David had taken the blockbuster action score route instead, he most likely wouldn’t have won.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Mark Evans said:


> It's lucky the internet wasn't around when Tarantino used 'Stuck in the Middle with You' for the ear-surgery bit in Reservoir Dogs. All those Creedence Clearwater Revival purists having snowflake meltdowns ...


Actually the internet was around.


----------



## fakemaxwell

Cathbad said:


> Several commenters on YT mentioned that YT's own analytics showed that no one outside their own country (not USA or UK) had listened to their submission. I've no idea if that's true or not, but taking the comments at face value, it does raise a question about the judging process.



If I was setting this up, no way in hell would I be viewing each submission on a separate webpage. Would dump with youtube-dl using the links provided in the Google Forms, then you can manage what's been viewed and judged from one server. Spitfire has some smart people, so it wouldn't surprise me if they did something similar, and it's not surprising that it didn't show up in Youtube's analytics.


----------



## Cathbad

rapscallione said:


> If I was setting this up, no way in hell would I be viewing each submission on a separate webpage. Would dump with youtube-dl using the links provided in the Google Forms, then you can manage what's been viewed and judged from one server. Spitfire has some smart people, so it wouldn't surprise me if they did something similar, and it's not surprising that it didn't show up in Youtube's analytics.



That would explain it.


----------



## jcuno

christianhenson said:


> I'm overjoyed by the VI-C reaction here. Fuck me have you seen the YouTube comments
> 
> YOWZERS
> 
> I've not been involved in this competition but I would if given the chance scream out to the haters and say
> 
> WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS
> 
> Being different fucking matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape shit other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000
> 
> ELEVEN THOUSAND
> 
> People taking part.
> 
> Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry
> 
> Tarrantino
> Ferrara
> Lee
> De Palma
> Scorsese
> Allen
> Wright
> 
> ???
> 
> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.
> 
> This is the fundamental error we so often make, we judge ourselves in the minds of ourselves as composers, not with empathy towards the people who's work we're paid to enhance, who's stories we're paid to help tell.
> 
> BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
> 
> This is real life, I remember the first 5 years of my professional life saying "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???" for every single job I went up for....
> 
> So for me, a massive lesson to be learned.... probably not least by us at Spitfire.
> 
> Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.
> 
> Love to you all for the intelligence!
> 
> C. x



I applaud you for writing this post and not holding back. Very well said.


----------



## Ran Zhou

Just for the record of reference, a clip from Person of Interest Season4, one of my favorite shows


The shift from orchestra (one of the themes of the show actually) to chip tune works pretty well. And the song is "Fortune Days" by The Glitch Mob. And that song stayed in my playlist since the day I watched that episode.
BTW, this show is:
Created by Jonathan Nolan
Composer(s) Ramin Djawadi
And J. J. Abrams is in the producer list as well.


----------



## David Kudell

Thanks to everyone for listening, I appreciate the support! I'm glad to be part of this community at VI-Control. I am fine with criticism, that goes with the territory. 

As a fan of the show, I remember watching this episode of Westworld before the competition and thinking how wild the genre switches were. So I didn't think my take was all that out there if you've seen the show. They already used Valkyries, which was a sign that a traditional action score wasn't what they were looking for.

Also, in Season 1 & 2 of Westworld, a couple episodes used a brilliant orchestral cover of the Rolling Stones "Paint it Black" in the shootout scenes! So I knew that there was a history of playfulness in the music choices in the show.


----------



## Mark Evans

easyrider said:


> There are many people who didn’t like it and voiced their opinions... why would these people suddenly all be misguided ?



Well, lots of people didn't like Hillary Clinton and voiced their opinions ...


----------



## Mark Evans

David Kudell said:


> Thanks to everyone for listening, I appreciate the support! I'm glad to be part of this community at VI-Control. I am fine with criticism, that goes with the territory.
> 
> As a fan of the show, I remember watching this episode of Westworld before the competition and thinking how wild the genre switches were. So I didn't think my take was all that out there if you've seen the show. They already used Valkyries, which was a sign that a traditional action score wasn't what they were looking for.
> 
> Also, in Season 1 & 2 of Westworld, a couple episodes used a brilliant orchestral cover of the Rolling Stones "Paint it Black" in the shootout scenes! So I knew that there was a history of playfulness in the music choices in the show.



I hope you are celebrating with a big glass of champagne!


----------



## gspot

Pretty sure a Download for Youtube would count as a full view with the IP of the downloading server (USA mostly). So they show up within the channel analytics. But that is not the question at hand for my understanding. I think people feel that the shortlisting was intransparent. So here is one more piece of unwanted advice to the spitfire (backfire?) team: Tell the people how many team members were viewing, and shortlisting using what criteria and how many entries actually made it to the jury members. Provide a little inside. Be transparent. Minimize damage if all other reasons do not appeal to you.


----------



## dzilizzi

So I knew my entry wouldn't win. It was generic chase scene music. I thought I hit the hit points pretty well, added a ticking clock for something different, and made sure you could hear the dialogue and sound effects. I really wanted to go the comic/Roadrunner/Bugs Bunny route, but knew I didn't have the chops to do it well. 

And? Listening to prior winners of similar contests that someone posted, I knew it would be something that didn't make any sense to me. It's similar to when I watch Project Runway. When I was younger I worked in the fashion industry. Sometimes I get the winner. Most of the time, I can't figure out how they chose the one they chose. 

Same with this. Spitfire and J Abrams have their reasons for choosing the winner. Even if it was picking a name out of a hat. I do remember a number of people here liked David's entry when he posted it. So it can't be too far out there.


----------



## Rory

gspot said:


> Pretty sure a Download for Youtube would count as a full view with the IP of the downloading server (USA mostly). So they show up within the channel analytics. But that is not the question at hand for my understanding. I think people feel that the shortlisting was intransparent. So here is one more piece of unwanted advice to the spitfire (backfire?) team: Tell the people how many team members were viewing, and shortlisting using what criteria and how many entries actually made it to the jury members. Provide a little inside. Be transparent. Minimize damage if all other reasons do not appeal to you.



There's a much simpler solution. Next year, run a much smaller competition with stringent entry criteria in terms of professional accomplishment. I don't doubt that plenty of well-qualified people will enter for a shot at US$15,000 in libraries, and Spitfire, the judges and the winner and runners up won't have to put up with the abuse to which they are currently being subjected 

Indeed, this might also work better from a marketing perspective.


----------



## gspot

U wanna limit the participant numbers? And what was non-stringent this time? And the abuse is felt by the participants as well as by the winners and the involved companies (who did this for business reasons I guess).


----------



## Cathbad

Rory said:


> Spitfire, the judges and the winner and runners up won't have to put up with the abuse to which they are currently being subjected
> 
> Indeed, this might also work better from a marketing perspective.




Criticism isn't abuse. OK, some of the criticism is intemperate but it's mostly valid.

The main objection seems to be that the winning entries don't correlate very well, or at all, with the stated requirements and judging criteria. As @Eptesicus accurately pointed out, if an important criterion was individuality, why then were two runners up very generic action scores, while a third was an Alan Silvestri pastiche (albeit a good one)?

And then for so many people, who worked hard on their submissions, to see a perfunctory video with a quick run down of the winners and that's all folks... People usually get annoyed by double standards or having their time wasted, and this seems to be the root of the dissatisfaction here. Can you appreciate that that's how many see it?

From a marketing perspective it does look like they've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory though, doesn't it?


----------



## gspot

I am with Cathbad on this. To clarify: Most of the talk is not about who won why. We simply are not entitled to. The issue is 11.000 entries vs. a joke of a 08:36 winner announcement video. That is what the participants are mad about (see the comments until they were blocked ... approx. 2/3rds are talking about being disappointed by the conduct ... not the winners ... )


----------



## pawelmorytko

I do agree that there should have maybe been a big lead up to a big live stream and celebration, maybe joint winners similar to OT's competition so one entry/person doesn't get witch hunted. Definitely a bigger event to reflect on how much traction the competition had when it was first announced.


----------



## h.s.j.e

If they’d just have judged it based on “Most-Discussed Entry on VI-Control,” then...David would’ve still won, I think. Massive congrats! Terrific entry.

I worked really hard on my entry, and it was unremarkable, and accumulated like, thirteen views on YouTube. My non-composer friends thought it was badass. Maybe my lowered expectations made me enjoy it more—I dunno. Anyway, congrats to the winners, thanks to Spitfire.


----------



## Rory

Cathbad said:


> From a marketing perspective it does look like they've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory though, doesn't it?



Does it? As far as I can see, a very small percentage of the 11,000 people who entered are complaining, and most of the whinging is on YouTube aka Whinging Central


----------



## gspot

Rory said:


> Does it? As far as I can see, a very small percentage of the 11,000 people who entered are complaining.



Dude ... please! 54.000 views. 11.000 participants. 2.588 comments until they blocked comments. Nearly 60 % dislikes until they also blocked it. Please stay with the facts.


----------



## josephwmorgan

David Kudell said:


> Thanks to everyone for listening, I appreciate the support! I'm glad to be part of this community at VI-Control. I am fine with criticism, that goes with the territory.
> 
> As a fan of the show, I remember watching this episode of Westworld before the competition and thinking how wild the genre switches were. So I didn't think my take was all that out there if you've seen the show. They already used Valkyries, which was a sign that a traditional action score wasn't what they were looking for.
> 
> Also, in Season 1 & 2 of Westworld, a couple episodes used a brilliant orchestral cover of the Rolling Stones "Paint it Black" in the shootout scenes! So I knew that there was a history of playfulness in the music choices in the show.



David, your approach to all of this is perfect. Obviously you had fun with it and the people getting so upset seem to have never lost a pitch before. Enjoy this day and don’t bother reading these begrudged novels of comments people feel entitled to leave. They don’t matter. You won because what you wrote is what the judges enjoyed most. That’s all it comes down to. Great work and congratulations!


----------



## fakemaxwell

Rory said:


> There's a much simpler solution. Next year, run a much smaller competition with stringent entry criteria in terms of professional accomplishment.



Can you explain what you mean by this, and who failed to meet your qualifications?


----------



## Rory

gspot said:


> Dude ... please! 54.000 views. 11.000 participants. 2.588 comments until they blocked comments. Nearly 60 % dislikes until they also blocked it. Please stay with the facts.



You take YouTube comments rather more seriously than I do  I'm also not too impressed with the pejorative use of the word "dude". In any event, the post of mine that you quoted offers a simple solution.


----------



## sherief83

My two cents is that a lot of people appears to have put a lot of effort into their entries and are probably coming a bit strong and too much on the winners who no doubt deserved there win, but ultimately...yes there was equally exciting entries just as strong as the winners...

I do feel that we must acknowledge all of you.

Therefor I must also congratulate all 11k that put an effort into this. This is a huge learning experience. you have un doubtfully gained something out of this. you created a piece, learned how to time, made decision on feelings of the piece and executed your thoughts as you understand it.

and now you get to examine your decisions and see, if they were good or did you hear other contenders decisions that now you get to learn from and even apply in the next one you do? growth is guaranteed here.

which to me means, you have won something, all of you, you have not lost anything. you have gained more knowledge, you have gained a better understanding. you are even more ready for the next thing that comes your way. 

my personal lesson that I have learned...i attempted to create a film Cue, I didn't attempt to entertain the judges...in a competition, dazzle em!


----------



## Fab

@David Kudell Nice one winning the competition, It was a fun ride!

Now the important question:

Are you going to go for


Spoiler



the black cowboy hat


 or something else?


----------



## Cathbad

pawelmorytko said:


> I do agree that there should have maybe been a big lead up to a big live stream and celebration, maybe joint winners similar to OT's competition so one entry/person doesn't get witch hunted. Definitely a bigger event to reflect on how much traction the competition had when it was first announced.



I did think of the recent OT competition. It seemed to strike a much better tone. Kind of, "Well done, everyone. Here, have a free viola as a surprise prize." I think they showed a lot more class.


----------



## gspot

Again to all "this is just haters hating" CSI - Youtube - detectives. Go to the Youtube video page and read through some comments. This is not a shitstorm-groupie wave. This is people being disappointed by a very poorly conducted and even worse communicated botch of a competition. They are witty, polite, sour, pissed of, critical, hurt, .... take your pick ... but they are not the typical self-justifying shitstorm crowd. And also again to the Spitfire guys here: Do yourself a favor. Own this. Do something. Already tried to propose a few things.


----------



## dflood

Michael Stibor said:


> You’re kidding right? I mean no professional director in their right mind would ever put out that scene with that music, let alone Scorsese or Tarantino.



Haha, well you could be right. That supercharged score might have added a little too much octane to that scene and taken it off into Roger Rabbit territory. But it did totally reinforce and build on the whole genre switch concept in a way that the film by itself couldn’t. And he wasn’t writing the actual score for the show - he was writing to win a contest! So hats off to him for figuring that out. I love all the experts here dissecting his technique and composition deficits, as if the judges even know or could give a shit about that stuff.


----------



## David Kudell

dflood said:


> Haha, well you could be right. That supercharged score might have added a little too much octane to that scene and taken it off into Roger Rabbit territory. But it did totally reinforce and build on the whole genre switch concept in a way that the film by itself couldn’t. And he wasn’t writing the actual score for the show - he was writing to win a contest! So hats off to him for figuring that out. I love all the experts here dissecting his technique and composition deficits, as if the judges even know or could give a shit about that stuff.


Well, I like to think that I might be able to write more than just one kind of music, depending on what the director had in mind.


----------



## Cathbad

dflood said:


> I love all the experts here dissecting his technique and composition deficits, as if the judges even know or could give a shit about that stuff.




I don't see anyone doing that. We all recognise that tastes differ. In fact, the reception of the music _itself_ is mostly positive. It's catchy and well produced. But several, including me, have pointed out that the winning entry doesn't correspond closely to the stated judging criteria and rules. And it's difficult to see why the runners up were chosen according to those same judging criteria.

I didn't have time to enter, but I sympathise with others who did. After that announcement video, many must feel like patsies for a marketing stunt.


----------



## jononotbono

Eptesicus said:


> Dolores' costume ?



Absolutely not. David is actually hoping for a fully functional Delores. Non standard issue of course.


----------



## dflood

Cathbad said:


> I don't see anyone doing that. We all recognise that tastes differ. In fact, the reception of the music _itself_ is mostly positive. It's catchy and well produced. But several, including me, have pointed out that the winning entry doesn't correspond closely to the stated judging criteria and rules. And it's difficult to see why the runners up were chosen according to those same judging criteria.
> 
> I didn't have time to enter, but I sympathise with others who did. After that announcement video, many must feel like patsies for a marketing stunt.


Ya sorry, the negative comments were mostly on YouTube


----------



## Michael Stibor

dflood said:


> Ya sorry, the negative comments were mostly on YouTube


A site famous for its negative comment section. I’m sure that’s why they changed the layout on their mobile versions, so that you have to click on the comments section to see them.

I wouldn’t put too much stock in the YouTube comment section, though it doesn’t mean that people’s opinions there are illegitimate either.


----------



## Hendrixon

Fun Fact:
When I first saw the announcement video on youtube the numbers were - 50,897 views and 2587 comments.
A refresh of the page shows 56,760 views, so like +6000 more views... but with 2567 comments... is in -20 comments LOL


----------



## Argan

Congrats David! I absolutely loved your entry. The idea, the execution, the professionalism/mixing. Deserved to win.


----------



## Paul Cardon

I played the EDM remix scene for a few years, placed in a few, won a couple, and I entered some with some BIG names in that world, giant stadium-filling acts. Tens of thousands of submissions, sometimes way more than this one. I used to get super pissed off at winning entries too. Sometimes they'd be someone that was already doing some small tours, regular DJ gigs, a sideline show at a big event, etc. Sometimes I thought the winners sucked, but then I learned to harbor that energy was so much worse than learning to let live.

I could count on my fingers how many of those got a video made for the winner, and often those were only the lead act or an organizer giving a brief congratulations to the winners. Y'all's expectations are INSANE.

But anyway, expect Christian to blabber for a bit about it in some extra detail on his YouTube channel. The video they made is already more than most any other similar competition gets (with some rare exceptions of course).

AFAIK, Spitfire is likely still working on product releases, busier than ever trying to coordinate work and zoom calls and whatnot online and are probably so over it lol

I don't want to seem like I'm just "defending Spitfire" because the company involved is totally irrelevant. Rather this shit's just not worth the huge fuss. People get pissed at basically every other art-based contest too, nothing new.


----------



## jononotbono

Michael Stibor said:


> Everyone will get over it



I won't.


----------



## jononotbono

PaulBrimstone said:


> Well, the next Spitfire scoring competition is going to attract at least 10,999 Super Mario 8-bit entries. I'll be sure to go ostinato braaaaam shit instead. Gotta stand out...



Good luck with that. You can thank the trailer crowd for felching Inception into shameless irrevocable disrepair. No, I'm going for Glitched Church Organ. Nobody thinks about Interstellar. Well they do, they just don't RTFM and figure out how to use Hauptwerk and definitely too tight to rent a Cathedral as well.


----------



## halfwalk

Responding to sentiments I've seen, not anyone in particular.

re: "Spitfire wasted our time"

No they didn't. They offered you an opportunity and guaranteed nothing but the experience of working with a well-produced clip.

Ironically_, we_ probably wasted _their_ time with our onslaught of predictable, boring ass cues. 

re: "This is insulting to those of us who took this seriously"

It's insulting to insinuate that the winner _didn't _take it seriously. He clearly did because he made a great entry that impressed the judges.

Was it a great chiptune? Not particularly, no. Was it cheesy? Yeah, and so was the scene. Was it fun? Yeah. Was it unexpected? Hell yeah. Did it stand out? Hell yeah. Did it have good production value? Hell yeah.

Did it deserve first place? The judges thought so. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that.

re: "The announcement video should have been better"

It's their party. They don't owe us anything.

re: "It doesn't fit the scene"

I'm going to butcher this, and I can't remember the source (Goldsmith?), but: 'Don't score the gallop of the horse, score the fear of the rider.' Given the genre change concept, I don't think there really was a "correct" approach.

re: "But the rules!"

Eh. Okay. Maybe valid. But if he hadn't won, would we still be getting on his ass about the rules? I suspect not. Let me guess, nobody here has ever driven 70+ in a 65 zone.

re: "This makes Spitfire look bad"

The whining makes the entire community look bad. Especially this whole borderline-cancel-culture movement all because some people didn't like the judges' decisions. I'm embarrassed by proxy.


----------



## CT

halfwalk said:


> I'm going to butcher this, and I can't remember the source (Goldsmith?), but: 'Don't score the gallop of the horse, score the fear of the rider.' Given the genre change concept, I don't think there really was a "correct" approach.



Not butchered. That's right.


----------



## classified_the_x

I've been a lurker on the forum and I created an account just to comment on the prize. First, congrats to David. I remember when he posted his track on the submissions thread and everyone congratulated him. I listened a bit and told my wife some ppl were making mockeries and I thought that was good as I don't believe in these type of contests, I think most of the entries are not heard. I can say that because I monitor my Soundcloud listens when I submit to remix contests and the like, and sometimes I get no listens during the contest period...

Anyway, I listened again and the way he mixed traditional orchestral instruments with the 8bit thing is not hilarious, it's genius. It's not a 10 for me though, as I think some of the 8 bit parts are a bit overwhelming and don't match the music that well. But the ppl complaining, can't you think about David a little? That you're giving a bitter taste to his victory, when it was obviously deserved?

I like the direction that Spitfire took. I watched some of Christian videos and I became a fan... I'm bypassing NI purchases to potentially support him in the future... Personally I didn't enter the contest 1. because I didn't think anyone would listen 2. I listened some of the entries from professional composers like an Italian guy and felt a bit intimidated. They didn't feel so fresh though, nor I thought that the composer did that soundtrack for the scene. Felt like it was already in his bag of tricks... If David did the whole score for the scene that alone is above 80% of the participants perhaps...

More camaraderie, folks...We composers should not eat each other for breakfast, hopefully there'll be room for everybody someday. To finish it off, art shocks... David shocked everyone... call that Art


----------



## Tinesaeriel

Congratulations to David for his entry! 

It's definitely not an entry I would've picked, personally - I don't like the 8-bit/chiptune sound, 1, because I'm so over the whole 80's nostalgia craze since like Stranger Things Season 2, and 2, I reaaaaally don't like the sound. XD

I have mixed feelings about how well it supported the scene, especially for a show like Westworld - I could more readily see it playing in films like "Pixels" or "Wreck-It Ralph" - but it's definitely distinct enough to stand out - a really fun and well-produced piece, and it was exactly the kind of unique entry the judges were looking for. Congrats again!


----------



## Michael Antrum

One thing is clear from all this blowback, and that is a large number of people are obviously emotionally pretty ill-equipped to deal with a career as a media composer, and perhaps should consider another path....


----------



## thesteelydane

DexiMas said:


> The scene does not change visually at all in any way so changing the music to some 8bit Nintendo sounds does not fit.



That’s exactly why it works and why David won though: story telling through music, telling the story the visuals DON’T tell. There’s the literal text in any story and then there’s the sub-text, which is always the most interesting part, and what the smart composer scores. As they say, you don’t score the man running, you score WHY he runs. That’s exactly what David has done here, it is a masterclass in storytelling.



> Maybe if we could see through Aaron Paul's vision how things were different...


 Again, that’s EXACTLY what the music accomplishes here, and why it’s a brilliant bit of film music writing.

Congrats David, absolutely brilliant idea and execution, well deserved!


----------



## LamaRose

Congratulations, David! Of all the entries that I originally listened to, yours definitely stood out. The 8-bit aspect is integral, no doubt, to it's uniqueness... but there's a helluva lot more going on that the judges picked up on... not the least of which was a cool - memorable - theme. 

Very deserving imho.


----------



## Michael Stibor

halfwalk said:


> Responding to sentiments I've seen, not anyone in particular.
> 
> re: "Spitfire wasted our time"
> 
> No they didn't. They offered you an opportunity and guaranteed nothing but the experience of working with a well-produced clip.
> 
> Ironically_, we_ probably wasted _their_ time with our onslaught of predictable, boring ass cues.
> 
> re: "This is insulting to those of us who took this seriously"
> 
> It's insulting to insinuate that the winner _didn't _take it seriously. He clearly did because he made a great entry that impressed the judges.
> 
> Was it a great chiptune? Not particularly, no. Was it cheesy? Yeah, and so was the scene. Was it fun? Yeah. Was it unexpected? Hell yeah. Did it stand out? Hell yeah. Did it have good production value? Hell yeah.
> 
> Did it deserve first place? The judges thought so. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that.
> 
> re: "The announcement video should have been better"
> 
> It's their party. They don't owe us anything.
> 
> re: "It doesn't fit the scene"
> 
> I'm going to butcher this, and I can't remember the source (Goldsmith?), but: 'Don't score the gallop of the horse, score the fear of the rider.' Given the genre change concept, I don't think there really was a "correct" approach.
> 
> re: "But the rules!"
> 
> Eh. Okay. Maybe valid. But if he hadn't won, would we still be getting on his ass about the rules? I suspect not. Let me guess, nobody here has ever driven 70+ in a 65 zone.
> 
> re: "This makes Spitfire look bad"
> 
> The whining makes the entire community look bad. Especially this whole borderline-cancel-culture movement all because some people didn't like the judges' decisions. I'm embarrassed by proxy.


I definitely don’t think Spitfire wasted my time. I didn’t enter to win. In fact, I live in the one tiny place in the world that Spitfire specifically mentioned was not eligible, so there’s no issues there for me. But I definitely don’t feel bad about wasting THEIR time. Four minutes of their time for each person who spent hours/days on their submission is nothing. But hey, everyone knew going into it that their chances were slim to none, so let’s call this a tie.

As for the scene not working, I think people have legitimate complaints on this one. There seems to be a strong disconnect between the scene, the contest criteria, and the winning entry. I can’t imagine any director actually saying with a straight face that they would use that music in a scene of Westworld. I just don’t believe it. And I think that is the real complaint at hand here.

As for you being embarrassed by proxy, what can I say? I’m not. In fact up until today, I’ve only been impressed with our little music composer community. Most people were commenting positively on each other’s videos, suggesting helpful changes, etc. I for one, tried to like and comment on as many as I could possibly watch. I think the attitude of most was something to be revered. The fact that many people were upset with how this was done today (whether you agree or not) should not be dismissed as “whining”.


----------



## christianhenson

halfwalk said:


> Responding to sentiments I've seen, not anyone in particular.
> 
> re: "Spitfire wasted our time"
> 
> No they didn't. They offered you an opportunity and guaranteed nothing but the experience of working with a well-produced clip.
> 
> Ironically_, we_ probably wasted _their_ time with our onslaught of predictable, boring ass cues.
> 
> re: "This is insulting to those of us who took this seriously"
> 
> It's insulting to insinuate that the winner _didn't _take it seriously. He clearly did because he made a great entry that impressed the judges.
> 
> Was it a great chiptune? Not particularly, no. Was it cheesy? Yeah, and so was the scene. Was it fun? Yeah. Was it unexpected? Hell yeah. Did it stand out? Hell yeah. Did it have good production value? Hell yeah.
> 
> Did it deserve first place? The judges thought so. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that.
> 
> re: "The announcement video should have been better"
> 
> It's their party. They don't owe us anything.
> 
> re: "It doesn't fit the scene"
> 
> I'm going to butcher this, and I can't remember the source (Goldsmith?), but: 'Don't score the gallop of the horse, score the fear of the rider.' Given the genre change concept, I don't think there really was a "correct" approach.
> 
> re: "But the rules!"
> 
> Eh. Okay. Maybe valid. But if he hadn't won, would we still be getting on his ass about the rules? I suspect not. Let me guess, nobody here has ever driven 70+ in a 65 zone.
> 
> re: "This makes Spitfire look bad"
> 
> The whining makes the entire community look bad. Especially this whole borderline-cancel-culture movement all because some people didn't like the judges' decisions. I'm embarrassed by proxy.



I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of this post.


----------



## asherpope

Mukkenerd said:


> Dear David,
> 
> I already responded to your entry with a little critique before the announcement of the westworld competition. Now after reading the bloodbath on youtube i am really curious about some things. I thought you were an amateur musician, a bedroom producer guy, which completely explained to me at that time, why your harmonies in your entry are like they are and why your approach is what it is. I told you that the 8bit/chiptune thing is an easy gimmick to use in order to sound different because there are probably millions of these kind of tunes on the internet. Somehow it seems to be still fresh and considered creative. This is really a bummer since i am really into creativity and the main concept behind its meaning. It`s frustratinig to see that in comparison to the masses, it seems to be that i am the one who misunderstands this whole concept. Just for the fun of it, listen to all of my videos on my channel, at least the first 3 minutes (usually the poeple have only time for 1 minute tops), and than tell me if you still feel that the word creativity still has the same meaning to you. Maybe it`s the same, maybe different. Just give it a try.
> 
> Since i am completely new to the soundtrack/classical thing, I started out 3 Months ago, i had no real hopes of getting anywhere in this contest, it was the first time i worked with moving pictures. After visiting your IMDb page i was surprised that you have been around about 20 years in good old hollywood. You can imagine, how this hit me like a truck. A veteran sound designer with a big resume and than an entry like this, this couldn`t be true. I mean, i am in the biz too for over 20 years, but not in THE biz, i am a slow burn. I can`t judge the work you have been doing in this years, because i don`t know it, but i know your entry. Sadly, it reminds me of entries i have heard 10 years ago in german music amateur forums. You don`t have to believe me, that`s ok, but this is the reality and not here to diss you. You did your job, you put effort into this, maybe heart and you`ve won. That`s great, without any resentment. But from a guy who worked so long in THE industry, a guy who is and was fortunate enough to even be in this position, to hear this entry, i was dissapointed, to say at least.
> 
> I know so many artists, that barely can afford their living, but are so talented and so in another league, that it baffles me everytime when i hear people from deep within the scene that still manage to be way behind the pulse of innovation, but still manage to work and get payed real money. But that`s the game, so game on!
> 
> It`s nothing personal David, it isn`t, it`s a critique on the conecption of music and especially creativity by the masses and so the industry.


How can you write all that and not feel embarrassed? You come off as condescending but seemingly have no reason to be as you've only been composing for three months.


----------



## jononotbono

christianhenson said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of this post.



Curious why you weren't involved in this competition? To be honest, I was a little disappointed not to see any drone shots in the announcement video. Shame on you for lunching this.


----------



## NYC Composer

SamC said:


> Seems to be a lot of bad faith in this competition which is disappointing. Anyone who has spent any time as a working composer knows this industry is all about rejection. People seem to be taking this very personally.
> 
> I treated this like a pitch. Sometimes I win them, but I mostly lose them. More often than not you see what the client chose and it‘s a million miles away from what you thought the brief was. It happens all the time and competitions are no different.
> 
> Hopefully you learn from everything you do. So you take what you learned and move onto the next opportunity.
> Yep, pretty much what I said earlier.
> Congrats to the winners and all the composers who can take something positive away from the process. I really enjoyed listening to everyone’s efforts!


----------



## asherpope

jononotbono said:


> Curious why you weren't involved in this competition? To be honest, I was a little disappointed not to see any drone shots in the announcement video. Shame on you for lunching this.


If he'd been involved it would have been a game changer


----------



## FinGael

Congratulations David.

I enjoyed many entries, but yours was the only one that I remembered later on. Caught myself humming the main theme a couple of times. 

Thank you Spitfire and everyone involved for such a nice competition.

It would have been fun to take part in it, but for me it was not possible this time. Hopefully something like this will also come in the future. There are so many young or beginner film music composers, who have never had a real opportunity to score for picture, so I can see the usefulness of this and how it can inspire people to reach for their dreams.


----------



## NYC Composer

I haven’t listened to any entries, but my whole takeaway from this drama is...”hey, maybe I oughta write some chiptunes.”


----------



## Michael Stibor

christianhenson said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of this post.


I’m not surprised. And it’s certainly one way of looking at it.

But when the announcement video came out today and so many people were angry, so much so that comments were disabled on Instagram, and the YouTube like/dislike meter was disabled, you have to question what part Spitfire played in all this. Are thousands of people just upset that they didn’t win or could there have been an issue of miscommunication on Spitfire’s side?

The notion that people should use this as a learning experience, or that “being different” was the part that many people didn’t get, or whatever it was you said in your previous post is condescending and obnoxious. Many people who are disappointed with the results have legitimate issues with the fact that there was a huge disconnect between what was asked, what the rules were, and what won. Sure, Spitfire can bury their heads in the sand and assume that ALL of those people who are upset are just haters (as you called them), but I would say that that would be a very close minded way to look at it.

From my end, I saw only a very supportive community of composers here and on other forums, cheering each other on. If this has become a sour day, maybe there’s something to it that doesn’t just involve people “not getting it” or not understanding the business, or people whining about not winning, etc. Maybe it’s time to question what could be done differently next time.

Orchestral Tools had a recent competition that went off without a hitch. I wonder what the difference was?


----------



## FinGael

PaulBrimstone said:


> Well, the next Spitfire scoring competition is going to attract at least 10,999 Super Mario 8-bit entries. I'll be sure to go ostinato braaaaam shit instead. Gotta stand out...



"...And that is how the True Golden Age of Chiptunes began."


----------



## Aldo_arf

Michael Stibor said:


> I’m not surprised. And it’s certainly one way of looking at it.
> 
> But when the announcement video came out today and so many people were angry, so much so that comments were disabled on Instagram, and the YouTube like/dislike meter was disabled, you have to question what part Spitfire played in all this.
> 
> Are thousands of people just upset that they didn’t win or could there have been an issue of miscommunication on Spitfire’s side? The notion that people should use this as a learning experience, or that “being different” was the part that many people didn’t get, or whatever it was you said in your previous post is condescending and obnoxious. Many people who are disappointed with the results have legitimate issues with the fact that there was a huge disconnect between what was asked, what the rules were, and what won. Sure, Spitfire can bury their heads in the sand and assume that ALL of those people who are upset are just haters (as you called them), but I would say that that would be a very close minded way to look at it.
> 
> From my end, I saw only a very supportive community of composers here and on other forums, cheering each other on. If this has become a sour day, maybe there’s something to it that doesn’t just involve people “not getting it” or not understanding the business, or people whining about not winning, etc. Maybe it’s time to question what could be done differently next time.
> 
> Orchestral Tools had a recent competition that went off without a hitch. I wonder what the difference was?



@christianhenson 
I understand that most people are not happy with the outcome, I also understand to a point the Jury’s choice for a winner. But what I can’t understand is why Spitfire thought that blocking/deleting comments on Instagram and YouTube was a smart move. The best thing you can do is have a dialogue, it doesn’t matter if you are one guy or the head of a company. You could’ve left them write whatever they wanted and maybe give some answers tomorrow or even a week later, it doesn’t matter.

I remember several years ago when a company “messed up” in social media they deleted their tweets or whatever. They acted like a dictator removing anything they didn’t like. So at this time for a company to do similar moves it really stands out. I love Spitfire, they are a great company, you have help me and I believe thousands of people to create wonderful music that only existed in our minds and nowhere else. It’s never to late to make things right, we are all human beings and I’m sure this controversy won’t destroy the huge work you have dedicated to this wonderful company and team called Spitfire Audio.


----------



## classified_the_x

Aldo_arf said:


> @christianhenson
> I understand that most people are not happy with the outcome, I also understand to a point the Jury’s choice for a winner. But what I can’t understand is why Spitfire thought that blocking/deleting comments on Instagram and YouTube was a smart move. The best thing you can do is have a dialogue, it doesn’t matter if you are one guy or the head of a company. You could’ve left them write whatever they wanted and maybe give some answers tomorrow or even a week later, it doesn’t matter.
> 
> I remember several years ago when a company “messed up” in social media they deleted their tweets or whatever. They acted like a dictator removing anything they didn’t like. So at this time for a company to do similar moves it really stands out. I love Spitfire, they are a great company, you have help me and I believe thousands of people to create wonderful music that only existed in our minds and nowhere else. It’s never to late to make things right, we are all human beings and I’m sure this controversy won’t destroy the huge work you have dedicated to this wonderful company and team called Spitfire Audio.



the only thing that the negative backlash is doing is guaranteeing that companies like Spitfire and many others won't do contests like this. taking less risks, because ppl are too childish to accept the results.

I do agree that comments should be allowed though, ppl that know the brand hardly will change their mind and it can't be so damaging to discourage new customers. or can it?


----------



## Michael Stibor

classified_the_x said:


> the only thing that the negative backlash is doing is guaranteeing that companies like Spitfire and many others won't do contests like this. taking less risks, because ppl are too childish to accept the results.
> 
> I do agree that comments should be allowed though, ppl that know the brand hardly will change their mind and it can't be so damaging to discourage new customers. or can it?


I understand their decision to disable comments. At the end of the day, they’re a sample library company, not a contest hosting company. So in that sense, I get it.

But I disagree that people are too childish to accept the results. As I said above, OT put out a similar contest recently, with no issues. There were winners, everyone went home happy, etc. So whats the difference? I think there should be some soul searching from all of us, including Spitfire, on that one.


----------



## ProtectedRights

I didn't take part in the contest, so I am neutral.
Honestly, I don't like the winners entry. In the moment of the fit, the change to chiptune does a great job in carrying the "WTF happened, where am I" feeling. But when it carries on afterwards, it just feels very out of place and cringy, it actually destroys the atmosphere of the scene for me. So I think it's a rather bad pick as the winner, but that is just my personal view.

As to the social stuff, I guess it would have been much smarter for Spitfire to pick some noname newcomer. Firstly, this would make the prize (full Spitfire product line) actually make sense. Secondly, it would be good marketing because it shows to the crowd that everybody can make it, even the bedroom producer.


----------



## classified_the_x

Michael Stibor said:


> I understand their decision to disable comments. At the end of the day, they’re a sample library company, not a contest hosting company. So in that sense, I get it.
> 
> But I disagree that people are too childish to accept the results. As I said above, OT put out a similar contest recently, with no issues. There were winners, everyone went home happy, etc. So whats the difference? I think there should be some soul searching from all of us, including Spitfire, on that one.



the difference is that if you didn't tell me, I'd not have known about OT's contest... the hype was much bigger in Spitfire's.

I expected something that focused more on orchestral samples to be the winner though. I wondered if I'd have disadvantages if I used other brand libraries lol. In the end winner was not so focused on traditional instruments, but I came to learn that Spitfire has been releasing some synths and such.


----------



## BlueStacc

classified_the_x said:


> the only thing that the negative backlash is doing is guaranteeing that companies like Spitfire and many others won't do contests like this. taking less risks, because ppl are too childish to accept the results.
> 
> I do agree that comments should be allowed though, ppl that know the brand hardly will change their mind and it can't be so damaging to discourage new customers. or can it?



I do fear that no future competitions might be the result caused by the backlash... really sad... I really enjoyed it and thank Spitfire for the opportunity!
But it's not that easy in my opinion, and you can't simply blame the people for not being happy. I don't think they are "evil or sore losers" (read too many times). There were many other competitions from other companies, and in the end everyone was happy and congratulating the winners.

My interpretation of the whole situation:
I liked David's music and ideas, it was very well executed all together! But the entry shouldn't have won. It's the same reason why a breakedance-performance shouldn't win a ballet competition, even though it's creative and might be very well performed. It just doesn't fit the scene and the criteria in the end. You would get equal reactions from the balletdancers, if the breakdancer won the ballet-competition "because it was creative and different". I think this is the true reason behind so many people being mad.

Just to make that clear: I really liked your entry David! Great music


----------



## Andrajas

Mike Greene said:


> I don't mean this to sound condescending, but there's a lesson to be learned in this. I can name dozens of times I did things a client specifically said they didn't want, and I won (got the gig or got a theme/cue/jingle approved) because of it.
> 
> Knowing how many entries there would be (although I had no idea it would be 11,000!), had I entered myself, my first thought would have been that I need to zig while everyone else is zagging. Mind you, it takes a certain amount of arrogance to assume they'll like my zigging and see past a few rule violations, but I like my odds even less if I'm one of 11,000 zaggers.


So why have rules if they dont need to be followed anyway? Comparing this to a situation with a client doesnt work for me.
But hey, im not mad at all, just curious 😊


----------



## christianhenson

Aldo_arf said:


> @christianhenson
> I understand that most people are not happy with the outcome, I also understand to a point the Jury’s choice for a winner. But what I can’t understand is why Spitfire thought that blocking/deleting comments on Instagram and YouTube was a smart move. The best thing you can do is have a dialogue, it doesn’t matter if you are one guy or the head of a company. You could’ve left them write whatever they wanted and maybe give some answers tomorrow or even a week later, it doesn’t matter.
> 
> I remember several years ago when a company “messed up” in social media they deleted their tweets or whatever. They acted like a dictator removing anything they didn’t like. So at this time for a company to do similar moves it really stands out. I love Spitfire, they are a great company, you have help me and I believe thousands of people to create wonderful music that only existed in our minds and nowhere else. It’s never to late to make things right, we are all human beings and I’m sure this controversy won’t destroy the huge work you have dedicated to this wonderful company and team called Spitfire Audio.



Well I don't believe YouTube has been blocked, nor indeed has our initial instagram posted yesterday. When we do take action, ie removing posts or indeed blocking stuff is when we feel people have become abusive in a manner that can cause intimidation, or indeed harm to whom it is directed. We have form here especially when raging bigotry is often levelled against composers who are young but more often, and depressingly, when they're female.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Michael Antrum said:


> One thing is clear from all this blowback, and that is a large number of people are obviously emotionally pretty ill-equipped to deal with a career as a media composer, and perhaps should consider another path....



Exactly what I was thinking, too! If _this_ is getting under their skin, have fun with the sea of rejection in the real world scenarios. Where's the "sportsmanship"?? @David Kudell wins the contest, and that should be cause for celebration...why not? It could have been any of us. I must admit, I've watched his entry a few more times tonight, it's brilliant IMO. Is he a working composer? From what I understand, yes, and so are many of us (he's said himself his brush with Abrams was like 15 years ago). The runner up's were okay, but it seems like most of the entries I listened to were of the same calibre; I'm sure there was some form of randomness involved with the decisions. But who really cares? It was free to enter, and we still get to use the clip for our own resumes.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

BlueStacc said:


> It just doesn't fit the scene and the criteria in the end.



Perhaps in your opinion. But none of us knew what Spitfire was ultimately looking for, it was all a crap shoot, and that's the fun of it....as opposed to an actual scoring gig with rules (which would have been boring).


----------



## Andrew_m

<DELETED BY MEMBER>


----------



## NYC Composer

Meanwhile, the word “Spitfire” hasn’t been used as often since WW2.

Marketing rules.


----------



## AndyP

Michael Stibor said:


> Nah, that’s an oversimplification of the issues people have with it. Everyone was expecting the winning entry to be original. It was stated in multiple comments here (and elsewhere) in the Westworld threads that the winning entry would have to standout and be original. Originality is obvious. That part no one is debating.
> 
> The issue is that the winning entry doesn’t work as a legitimate score for this scene. I don’t even think that’s my personal opinion. It’s so obvious that I have to assume that’s a fact.
> 
> You work in advertising, so I assume you must know this. Yes originality is more captivating than something generic, but it _still has to work_.
> 
> Let’s say you’re working on a car commercial for Lincoln. You have Matthew McConaughey driving down the coast at dusk, looking all debonair in his expensive suit and gold watch. His voice over mentions something serious about his love of the history of Lincoln cars and his passion for driving. Then the music comes on, and it’s this comical 8-bit music track. Are you seriously going to accept that and show it to Lincoln? Uh, no.


Lincoln may not like it, but I like the Idea. 

I'm not saying it works in every context or with everyone.

Let's say I do a copy test, give a theme, and let the copywriters have their way.
What doesn't get stuck is repressed or forgotten by posts that get stuck. The thousandth variation of "oh, the coffee smells so good, what is it?" might only get attention from a very conservative, well established audience. "We buy this, we've always bought this." "We don't like change."

Punk music was initially perceived as noise and insult, but today it is an integral part of our music culture (even if it is not the same as before). At that time a shock for the society ... to which people reacted with head shaking and lack of understanding.

I see this contribution for what it is and when I see the reactions it provokes I can say, bull's eye!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Phew. Skimmed through some of those YouTube comments. A pathetic, shameful and astonishingly immature display.


----------



## NYC Composer

Hamilton, the musical. Not exactly My Fair Lady.


----------



## christianhenson

Yeah disappointing... of the many lessons to be learned from this "restraint of pen and tongue" appears to be the first stumbling block.


----------



## ProtectedRights

christianhenson said:


> Well I don't believe YouTube has been blocked,


What about the likes/dislikes? they are hidden now.


----------



## Guy Rowland

FWIW from someone else who didn't consider entering....

1. Contests are always Las Vegas. Always. Tell yourself this before you start, when you press SUBMIT and when the results come out.

2. If someone listened to every entry for 8 continuous hours a day, every single day without any break from one audition to the next, it would take them 3 months.

3. The more narrow the criteria, and the larger the pool of submissions, the harder it is to stand out from the crowd. There's likely little meaningful difference between the most traditionally competent and accomplished, and the 100th (which in this case represents the top one hundredth of applicants, remember).

4. Because of (2) and (3), anything well executed that genuinely IS different has far greater odds, regardless of how appropriate it is. It will be a breath of fresh air. It is its own gamble, of course, but a better one. Maybe it even broke (or at least bent) a few rules - again, another gamble. But when in Vegas...

As a result, I thought the winning entry was great fun and brilliantly executed. It would have been inappropriate in the real world, but not in a scoring contest with 11,000 applicants.

Group hug.


----------



## BlueStacc

Wolfie2112 said:


> Perhaps in your opinion. But none of us knew what Spitfire was ultimately looking for, it was all a crap shoot, and that's the fun of it....as opposed to an actual scoring gig with rules (which would have been boring).


Most people wanted an actual scoring competiton, which it was marketed as.

You're right, but not just in my opinion. Seems to be the majority of people and that's the problem for Spitfire and the cause for all the trouble (and the reason why the Youtube votes were deactivated). If the jury makes a risky decision, you have to accept the backlash and not talk people down if they are unhappy. People can stand losing a competition with 11.000 entries! They have shown numerous times in the past with other competitions with less people taking part, that can't be the reason for everything.

My only point here is: It's about communication, and something went terribly wrong there!
To reuse my analogy.. People expected a ballet-competition but really got a dancing competition with a breakdance winner in the end. Communication...


----------



## South Thames

The main problem seems to have been people were looking on this as a talent search/contest. It wasn’t. It was basically an elaborate promotion, and obviously a fun (and free) opportunity. Why else would the competition be so wide open and undefined? (Almost all true talent contests place limitations on the professional stature of those who can enter, and give at least some criteria for the nature of the submission). Why else would the announcement of the winners be so perfunctory and the judges so hands-off? And why else would be the prize just be merchandise rather than at least some professional opportunity?

It’s all very well to say it’s important to be different, but that’s not a realistic criteria for actual success in an industry where 95% of people making money make it by conforming to a massive degree to industry trends most of the time. The indignation at the result is the knowledge that whilst the winning entry might have amused the judges and stood out among the other entries, it does not reflect something that would realistically be heard on a show, that, for better or worse, is quite typical of many industry trends, and that therefore many people just misread the purpose of the competition.


----------



## Solarsentinel

South Thames said:


> The main problem seems to have been people were looking on this as a talent search/contest. It wasn’t. It was basically an elaborate promotion, and obviously a fun (and free) opportunity. Why else would the competition be so wide open and undefined? (Almost all true talent contests place limitations on the professional stature of those who can enter, and give at least some criteria for the nature of the submission). Why else would the announcement of the winners be so perfunctory and the judges so hands-off? And why else would be the prize just be merchandise rather than at least some professional opportunity?
> 
> It’s all very well to say it’s important to be different, but that’s not a realistic criteria for actual success in an industry where 95% of people making money in the business make it by conforming to a massive degree to industry trends most of the time. The indignation at the result is the knowledge that whilst the winning entry might have amused the judges and stood out among the other entries, it does not reflect something that would realistically be heard on a show, that, for better or worse, is quite typical of many industry trends, and that therefore many people just misread the purpose of the competition.


That why this kind of contest would may be closed to professionnals composers. Then there will be no such type of waiting.


----------



## christianhenson

ProtectedRights said:


> What about the likes/dislikes? they are hidden now.



I think that happens automatically by YouTube! When things are looking rough for a video.... It was INSANE!!! Only way you can hide those usually is by blocking comments totally.


----------



## christianhenson

Solarsentinel said:


> That why this kind of contest would may be closed to professionnals composers. Then there will be no such type of waiting.



Love to know how you'd define professional composer, I've been calling myself that since I was 16 and working as a baker.


----------



## jononotbono

<DELETED BY MEMBER>


----------



## christianhenson

I've been up all night so I could do with a hug, just went a recorded a pretty unintelligible ranting monologue that I probably wont publish and now I'm sitting in a room eating a soft white bread sandwich with Marmalade and a little bit too much butter to try and make the bad go away!


----------



## José Herring

christianhenson said:


> Love to know how you'd define professional composer, I've been calling myself that since I was 16 and working as a baker.


Good gig. Bakers make good dough.


----------



## CT

christianhenson said:


> I've been up all night so I could do with a hug, just went a recorded a pretty unintelligible ranting monologue that I probably wont publish and now I'm sitting in a room eating a soft white bread sandwich with Marmalade and a little bit too much butter to try and make the bad go away!



Yes, it's been an odd one. I made a couple of probably overly personal/sentimental and likely naive posts which I've since deleted, and now it's time to let it all go. This is a hard enough life to choose, and few of us will get where we want to go. Hopefully we can be as un-shitty to each other as possible along the way.


----------



## bengoss

christianhenson said:


> Love to know how you'd define professional composer, I've been calling myself that since I was 16 and working as a baker.



Christian, if you have a minute I would love to hear your thoughts on the winning composition? What blew your socks off? I read that you were not involved and hope to hear your perspective as a film music composer. 
As always thanks for everything you do for this community.
B


----------



## jononotbono

christianhenson said:


> I've been up all night so I could do with a hug, just went a recorded a pretty unintelligible ranting monologue that I probably wont publish and now I'm sitting in a room eating a soft white bread sandwich with Marmalade and a little bit too much butter to try and make the bad go away!



Ah man. What a shame. WTF?! No doubt if you actually baked the bread it would be a lot softer!  There's no bad round these parts.

Thank you for this competition. It was last months saving grace for me. The most creative period of my life for quite a while. You and Paul are amazing for doing this. Thanks man.


----------



## South Thames

> Love to know how you'd define professional composer, I've been calling myself that since I was 16 and working as a baker.



It is obviously difficult to define but there are ways to at least attempt it -- IMDB credits on non-independent films, amount of music professionally published, PRS membership level etc. Put it this way; one of the reasons I decided not to enter was that the prize for me would not actually be an unrealistic professional investment to make myself if I decided it was worth it, and to be honest I already own most Spitfire libraries that I want. There's so many Spitfire users who are not in that position and for whom the prize would really have hugely changed what they're able to do. Something tells me the winner is not in that category.


----------



## christianhenson

bengoss said:


> Christian, if you have a minute I would love to hear your thoughts on the winning composition? What blew your socks off? I read that you were not involved and hope to hear your perspective as a film music composer.
> As always thanks for everything you do for this community.
> B



Yeah, the C suite have just watched my monologue and have sanctioned me posting it on my channel, I'll post here once its thumbnailed... unleash hell!


----------



## poetd

Congrats David! 
All the other winners too.

Well done Spitfire on a fun competition.


----------



## reutunes

christianhenson said:


> Yeah, the C suite have just watched my monologue and have sanctioned me posting it on my channel, I'll post here once its thumbnailed... unleash hell!


Awesome - this I gotta see


----------



## AndyP

A wonderful new day dawns... Time to do something new.


----------



## Solarsentinel

christianhenson said:


> Love to know how you'd define professional composer, I've been calling myself that since I was 16 and working as a baker.


Professionnal = Person who work on the industry and gain money by that = Industry publyshing, etc.. it easy to see it on the youtube channel, generally professionnal peaople tend to expose this in order to promote themselves. 
But i totally understand your point of view. 
Otherwise making two categories pro and non pro perhaps could evitate this kind of reaction?


----------



## classified_the_x

BlueStacc said:


> Most people wanted an actual scoring competiton, which it was marketed as.
> 
> You're right, but not just in my opinion. Seems to be the majority of people and that's the problem for Spitfire and the cause for all the trouble (and the reason why the Youtube votes were deactivated). If the jury makes a risky decision, you have to accept the backlash and not talk people down if they are unhappy. People can stand losing a competition with 11.000 entries! They have shown numerous times in the past with other competitions with less people taking part, that can't be the reason for everything.
> 
> My only point here is: It's about communication, and something went terribly wrong there!
> To reuse my analogy.. People expected a ballet-competition but really got a dancing competition with a breakdance winner in the end. Communication...



I don't agree with the ballet analogy so much, yes, Spitfire is more known for the "classic" stuff but Westworld seems like a pretty modern series, futuristic, most movies like that have modern soundtracks. I never watched it TBH so I don't know how the score is, and I know that JJ Abrams' Lost was mostly made of strings...But if Spitfire wasn't the promoter of the contest, why would anyone want typical orchestral stuff in Westworld?

The winner had a more relaxed attitude than most that entered, and the judges probably had an objective in the choice, they might be trying to tell us something. Plus they might have a completely different POV since they are industry pros. 

Somehow it's the attitude that I wanted Beatport had in their latest competition. It was a multi genre contest looking for cross genre stuff. I listened to some winners today and I'm not even judging, but most of the tracks are not cross genre, not saying they are bad, they are just usual house/trance/techno...

Spitfire didn't even need to but they upvoted innovation.


----------



## toomanynotes

Eptesicus said:


> For one person to watch every entry in full from start to finish is 32.59 days in total (as in no breaks).


There is no way they listened to that many, like i said some of those runner ups have 80’000 subs on youtube ch. Think that helps plus nepotism.


----------



## redlester

christianhenson said:


> Yeah, the C suite have just watched my monologue and have sanctioned me posting it on my channel, I'll post here once its thumbnailed... unleash hell!



Now is exactly the time for a Modular Mondays update. He said, hopefully... 😊


----------



## ProtectedRights

reutunes said:


> Awesome - this I gotta see


I hope it doesn't begin with "to all y' sore lewsurz out there"


----------



## N.Caffrey

Not sure if it’s been posted already but I found this pretty spot on:


1) If it took you "weeks" to put together your 4-minute Westworld sample, you're not ready for this industry

2) If you put all your hopes and dreams into a single bit of work, hoping it would be your key to your future, you're not ready for this industry.

3) If you're furious that the judges went with something that you didn't like, or wasn't what you would have done, then you're not ready for this industry.


----------



## reutunes

ProtectedRights said:


> I hope it doesn't begin with "to all y' sore lewsurz out there" :D


I hope it does. David did an awesome job and it's totally pathetic that composers won't support one of their own.


----------



## toomanynotes

ProtectedRights said:


> What about the likes/dislikes? they are hidden now.


Why whats happened since last 12 hours? Lots of butt hurting🤣😂🤣🤣?


----------



## CT

N.Caffrey said:


> Not sure if it’s been posted already but I found this pretty spot on:
> 
> 
> 1) If it took you "weeks" to put together your 4-minute Westworld sample, you're not ready for this industry
> 
> 2) If you put all your hopes and dreams into a single bit of work, hoping it would be your key to your future, you're not ready for this industry.
> 
> 3) If you're furious that the judges went with something that you didn't like, or wasn't what you would have done, then you're not ready for this industry.



This is basically what I tried and failed to say earlier, albeit in a more diplomatic way, but as I've thought about it more, I doubt what most of the people griping truly need is a soft diplomatic hand.


----------



## al_net77

It has been a great scoring opportunity, and it was fun. But evidently David had the most fun doing it, and won.
Well done, @David Kudell !


----------



## Manaberry

I just woke up and saw the shitstorm.

It seems that a very large part of the participants has taken this contest too seriously. Spending countless hours to sounds like Hollywood. I mean, it's a car chase! What else more iconic than that can you pick? Pretty sure 95% of the entries are drum patterns with strings ostinatos (I've done my part on that one too)

Again, great work @David Kudell

It was obvious that the jury would pick something bold, out of the lines, even funny. And it is... a contest. Not sure if all the participants can handle real deal gig by running with that behavior.

You get better by composing, accepting failure, and moving on. Not by shooting others.

Anyway, thanks @christianhenson for that contest. I've been able to point out issues on my workflow and to fix them by doing that score. Definitely worth it.


----------



## G_Erland

A point of view: The one thing I thought made rescoring (i did not submit) intriguing and difficult was the Wagner part. I read that as clearly being a part of some conceptual intention, and to me its inclusion creates a lot of effects with regards to pacing etc, and an overall feel which is hard to define. I thought that composing for the que would require work to try and understand this conceptual aspect, some idea with regards to this would have to be the pivoting point. The winning composition is the only one ive heard that I think lives with these ideas. Congratulations, great fun!


----------



## Zedcars

I’ve replied to a few of the misguided numbskulls on YT explaining he and JJ weren’t best buddies (or buddies at all) and there was no favouritism or underhandedness here. They are all just copying each other like sheep and jumping up and down thinking they’ve been had. It’s just embarrassing behaviour. It’s such a shame that people think it’s ok to do that.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

This whole thread is overflowing with bullshit, but in the end everyone got exactly what they deserve.

Winner: David Kudell took a big risk with his curveball and went home with the prize.

Participants: A legitimate and fun escape from the whole COVID-19 situation.

Sore Losers : It's time to get out of the basement you're living in, wean off mama's teats and re-evaluate yourselves. You're riled up because of a free-for-all competition in a niche market hosted in a random corner of the internet. Alternatively, you can jerk off to Bernard Sanders and cry yourself to sleep. And no, the Russians most certainly didn't hack the competition.

Spitfire Audio: A sleazy company that employs deceptive marketing, calls disgruntled customers "haters" and hunts down their profiles. The exaggerated negative response is well-deserved.

Me: Trashy internet drama for a boring Sunday afternoon.

Life is good.


----------



## Eptesicus

I really hate this ridiculous notion that it is just because everyone is a sore loser that they are upset. Even Spitfire staff are trying to perpetuate that myth..

Could they just stop to think that, maybe, just maybe, they might have got it wrong?

I've never seen blowback like this from a composing competition, and I'm telling you now, it isn't because people are sad they didn't win.

No, there is nothing anyone can do, and the choices have been made but everyone has the right to tell Spitifre they think they got it wrong if they want to.


----------



## christianhenson

Totally agree. I don't see any Spitfire "Staff" perpetuating anything.... oh... have you just made me staff?


----------



## Nils Neumann

N.Caffrey said:


> Not sure if it’s been posted already but I found this pretty spot on:
> 
> 
> 1) If it took you "weeks" to put together your 4-minute Westworld sample, you're not ready for this industry
> 
> 2) If you put all your hopes and dreams into a single bit of work, hoping it would be your key to your future, you're not ready for this industry.
> 
> 3) If you're furious that the judges went with something that you didn't like, or wasn't what you would have done, then you're not ready for this industry.


Someone is spot on here


----------



## Loïc D

N.Caffrey said:


> Not sure if it’s been posted already but I found this pretty spot on:
> 
> 
> 1) If it took you "weeks" to put together your 4-minute Westworld sample, you're not ready for this industry
> 
> 2) If you put all your hopes and dreams into a single bit of work, hoping it would be your key to your future, you're not ready for this industry.
> 
> 3) If you're furious that the judges went with something that you didn't like, or wasn't what you would have done, then you're not ready for this industry.



My thoughts exactly (and I’m not working in the industry at all)

It’s JUST a contest, a free one, and you keep your rights of use on your entry - so you can use it for your demo reel.

I’ve already switched to my next project.

Besides, also in my industry (IT) we are losing sales cases in a very unfair way when we thought we should have won, and we spent weeks to prepare and defend it.
So disappointment is part of any business. 
However good you think you are, they’re plenty of ppl who don’t see this and just don’t care (from your neighbour to JJ Abrams, actually)


----------



## redlester

Can we move on to something less divisive and drama-free, like Brexit for example?


----------



## Paul Cardon

Is it, perhaps, possible that Spitfire didn't have some secret behind-the-scenes "type of score" they were looking for without telling anybody? And MAYBE things got judged and narrowed down based on what people over there liked? Same as the final non-Spitfire judges?


----------



## Manaberry

redlester said:


> Can we move on to something less divisive and drama-free, like Brexit for example?


----------



## christianhenson

Well don't ever accuse me of not being a massive glutton for punishment!


----------



## brek

- When I saw the post here a week ago about a chip tunes entry, I groaned. I clicked on it, skipped ahead a minute or so, heard the chip, and turned it off.

- When I saw that it won, I watched the whole thing.

- *I loved it!*

- I still don't love the idea of going to a chiptune genre, but that's personal taste (this portion of the scene doesn't give a clear indication as to what the genre should be).

- The context hasn't been talked about enough. The scene starts with pseudo 1920's swing music. After the scoring competition section ends, we hear Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet. The *context of the scene *is all about _campiness..._(for better or worse).

_- _Speaking of, my favorite entry was the one that made fun of the whole thing.

- I didn't enter the contest because I wanted to watch the season up to the point of the scene, and that didn't happen until last week. At the start of my career, I entered a competition and didn't win. It crushed me. After feeling like I've figured some things out over 20 years, I entered another competition and didn't place in that one either.

- External validation is hard to come by. So many people who choose to pursue an art are plagued and crippled by self doubt.

- I get that there are hurt feelings, but why would we deny someone that elation of getting some well-earned external validation?




- I'm thankful for discovering some new and talented composers/youtubers as a result of this competition.


----------



## soter75

Congrats Mr. David!

And again THANK you Spitfire and HBO for this wonderful competition!


----------



## redlester

christianhenson said:


> Well don't ever accuse me of not being a massive glutton for punishment!



This seems disappointingly restrained and coherent after no sleep! 🤣


----------



## Loïc D

redlester said:


> Can we move on to something less divisive and drama-free, like Brexit for example?


Hahahaha

Yeah, that competition is all over the news this morning.

Media are wondering what happened.
Psychologists are asked to state whether it’s better to be a winner or a runner up.

Jean-Michel Jarre is stating that “8-bits is the new 24-bits” and has thrown all his gear to the dump, keeping only his Gameboy.

Drug mobs are eagerly fighting over what’s called now “The Genre War”

Feeling threatened, Spitfire Audio publicly announced that they are pro-Brexit now.
The contestants will have to prove they have at least 1/4th of British blood to enter future competitions.

JJ Abrams had to change his identity. Rumour has it he should be called Ron Howard from now on.

The next season of WestWorld is cancelled. The show will be reboot as EastWorld, shot in Korea, and telling the story of impossible love story between a low-class android and rich-class heir over 25 seasons in which it will be revealed that the android’s cog maker was the former husband of one of the rich-family maid who hold a mysterious jade bracelet.

Ford has disclosed their new voice driven golf car that can hold 4 passengers sitting front-to-front.
First reviews state conception flaws : you have to sacrifice one seat if you want to carry non standard issue luggages. And the roof is not sealed well.

I hate this competition now...


----------



## davidson

christianhenson said:


> Well don't ever accuse me of not being a massive glutton for punishment!




"Hello, police? It's 4:30 in the morning and there's a man sat by himself on a hill shouting at the sky, please can you send someone?"


----------



## paulthomson

Just for the record - we had a well organized team working through the entries in the first round. Obviously no one person listened on their own to every entry, that would be ridiculous and contrary to every competition that is run on this scale.

personally, I listened to 500 entries in round 1 and 300 in round 2 - me and the team have been working hard on this - diligently and fairly - over the last 3 weeks - as we’ve mentioned a number of times now, every entry was listened to. I have no idea - nor do I care - how youtube decides who is a bot and who is a human. I’d suggest the bizarre pattern of a non logged in computer playing one entry after another for hours on end probably set YTs bot alert wagging.

David won fair and square - when I saw his entry during judging (round 2) - I shouted “YES” at the top of my voice and laughed out loud at points.

it was cool, witty, brave, well executed, scored to picture brilliantly, and just so fun and joyful - I loved it.

for people claiming he is mates with JJ because he worked as an assistant in a sound crew of 65 people 15 years ago is.. well - ludicrous.

And he’s not a big shot Hollywood composer as some have claimed - that is equally ludicrous.

he did a great job, and won fair and square.

WELL DONE!!!


----------



## José Herring

redlester said:


> This seems disappointingly restrained and coherent after no sleep! 🤣


I know. If ever there were a justifiable time to unleash the pen and tongue, I thought this would be it. 

I always new they were nice guys.


----------



## Eptesicus

christianhenson said:


> Well don't ever accuse me of not being a massive glutton for punishment!




I love your dog! He/she is gorgeous.

On the subject of the competition, I (and likely others) am finding it hard to reconcile the notion that being outlandishly different is the most important thing, with some of the runners up picks.

The explanation for why David was picked as the winner (and I agree that his piece is, very cool , fun and well done) is that he "dared to be different" and did something totally unexpected. If that is the case why weren't the 5 runners up slots filled with equally daring and different submissions? There are loads of really well done submissions with something completely different and unexpected in them that didn't make it into the runner's up slots.

Also, on the subject of being different in the industry you are obviously right that as a composer you need to find your voice and stand out. However, the truly successful composers manage to cleverly do this but within the confines of what is expected and still works with the picture. I would argue that there is a huge difference between just being different for the sake of being different and being creative enough to put your own mark/stamp on your music, whilst still retaining what the scene or film is trying to convey.

The real skill in this industry, I think, is writing something different..but familiar. I know this to be the case because that is what we hear on pretty much every bit of media. Familiarity. The truly great composers then turn this familiarity into something uniquely their own. They subtly inject new ideas without you really noticing whilst watching. THAT is where the real skill lies.


----------



## Eptesicus

Nico said:


> This competition and its subsequent hysteria are quite representative of the times we live in.
> This feels like the 2016 USA presidential election.
> Everyone expected a Hilary, and Donald won.
> Hilary may have had more popular vote.
> Donald won because he understood our times and was at stake.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, deal with it and learn from it.
> Nothing guarantees that it will be the same next time, who knows!
> 
> Congratulations to David. I think that what he did was very daring so he deserves the win.
> Have fun with all your spitfire libraries!



This is a very bad analogy. Donald won because 40% of America need their heads examining and are terrible, terrible judges of character. 

It says the opposite of what you are trying to say


----------



## al_net77

christianhenson said:


> Well don't ever accuse me of not being a massive glutton for punishment!




Hey @*christianhenson*, the loss of sleep made you less English and more... Italian??? You are talking with your hands and using some, well... colourful words 

BTW, good rant here.


----------



## Yogevs

I think the gimmick is nice and the execution was great. A very strong runner-up.
I wouldn't have given it first place.

Also - who cares what I think .

This was fun. It's Spitfire's competition and they can decide whoever they think should win first prise.

ALSO - I think that all runner-ups + first place sounded better than my entry. So I'm fine with it !


----------



## barteredbride

Soooooo....a new composer won a new composer competition with a creative entry that beat the other entries which all sounded the same.

And??!


----------



## StefanoM

David Kudell said:


> Well, I like to think that I might be able to write more than just one kind of music, depending on what the director had in mind.



Hey David, Congratulations! 

I worked for many years as a sound designer and Composer on Advertising, and I can understand the right reasons for your win.

Congrats

by the way, it was a funny contest congrats @Spitfire Team



Ste


----------



## NDRU

My one cent... 

When you feel that you are entitled to certain things, beware... Self-entitlement will fast track you to losing a job opportunity, a relationship and your career. 

Of course, it's great we are all given the freedom to voice out our opinions here. Choose your 'notes' carefully.


----------



## synkrotron

Well done David 

The Chalky Wigs brigade don't seem to be taking it very well


----------



## Villanao

Eptesicus said:


> This is a very bad analogy. Donald won because 40% of America need their heads examining and are terrible, terrible judges of character.
> 
> It says the opposite of what you are trying to say



Anti-conservative vitriol is disgusting, hateful and elitist. And I'm not even a conservative. It's just the one group you're allowed to hate without any social repercussions whatsoever so I would also add cowardly to the mix. Ban me if you want, no apologies. And NO respect.

Anyways, congratulations to the winner! I liked the 'genre switch' lol


----------



## Eptesicus

Villanao said:


> Anti-conservative vitriol is disgusting, hateful and elitist. And I'm not even a conservative. It's just the one group you're allowed to hate without any social repercussions whatsoever so I would also add cowardly to the mix. Ban me if you want, no apologies. And NO respect.
> 
> Anyways, congratulations to the winner! I liked the 'genre switch' lol



It isnt anti conservative. I'm just pointing out that Trump is objectively a terrible person and that that analogy was bad.


----------



## jononotbono

josejherring said:


> I know. If ever there were a justifiable time to unleash the pen and tongue, I thought this would be it.
> 
> I always new they were nice guys.


*Knew


----------



## Zedcars

The reason so many people are annoyed is they didn’t give away their Spitfire Slippers*™ *as a runner up prize.



​


----------



## Diego G

I get the message that it's important to stand out and to be bold, but I can't shake the feeling that if I had done this on a real world project, I would have been fired XD


----------



## SamC

Diego G said:


> I get the message that it's important to stand out and to be bold, but I can't shake the feeling that if I had done this on a real world project, I would have been fired XD



But it’s not a real world project. I think some people are forgetting what the spirit of competition is. David was smart in recognising what would stand out in a competition of 11,000 and not an actual score requested by a director.


----------



## FinGael

Eptesicus said:


> This is a very bad analogy. Donald won because 40% of America need their heads examining and are terrible, terrible judges of character.
> 
> It says the opposite of what you are trying to say



I think that you people should respect this competition and the people involved more than this. By changing it to political kindergarten smackdown guarantees that everyone will be on the losing side. And personally I think it is a bad decision to tell people to get their heads examined for their views - no matter who is supporting who. Even if joking.

We can be better than this.

My two cents. Have a great Sunday everyone.


----------



## Redsa

Diego G said:


> I get the message that it's important to stand out and to be bold, but I can't shake the feeling that if I had done this on a real world project, I would have been fired XD


You would have only attempted something like this on a real gig if you had been briefed by the director that they wanted something really outlandish and an obvious play against the scene. 

Personally, I get the ‘being different’ angle standing out in the winners composition,
I just don’t think it was executed particularly well. The chip tune element was a pretty basic attempt at that genre (both in its sound design and underscoring) and likewise for the Orchestral elements. 

The two felt very separate for me, and the way the composition moved between them seemed inelegant. Production was average. 

So whilst I respect the judges wanted to go for something ‘different’, it seemed this entry won simply because it was quite jarring, not because it was executed particularly well. 

(Didn’t enter myself btw, so this is not sour grapes)


----------



## Sjoerd Visser

Too be honest, I've been a little bit sad and dissapointed in the completely undeserved shitstorm Dave and the people at Spitfire are getting. I'm glad that at least a bigger proportion of the people are seeming to give more respectful and appreciative comments here at VI-C. I mean, you don't have to agree.. but keep it civil man.

People claiming that it would never have been picked by a director when the final judgement came from the showrunners is just beyond me. I do hope for them that they see the light when their dissapointment has faded, if they have any ambitions to survive in the industry.

That being said, I'm just gonna go ahead and congratulate David. I loved his entry. And thank you Spitfire for an amazing competition. Don't let it get to you too much guys. Honestly!


----------



## toomanynotes

Imagine somebody else did the mario score! but the other won? That wld be the ultimate butt hurt! 😂🤣😂 I wld pay to see a thread stand off of 8-bit composers arguing whose was better.


----------



## Eptesicus

FinGael said:


> I think that you people should respect this competition and the people involved more than this. By changing it to political kindergarten smackdown guarantees that everyone will be on the losing side. And personally I think it is a bad decision to tell people to get their heads examined for their views - no matter who is supporting who. Even if joking.
> 
> We can be better than this.
> 
> My two cents. Have a great Sunday everyone.



I wasn't the one to compare it to politics.


----------



## toomanynotes

Sjoerd Visser said:


> Too be honest, I've been a little bit sad and dissapointed in the completely undeserved shitstorm Dave and the people at Spitfire are getting. I'm glad that at least a bigger proportion of the people are seeming to give more respectful and appreciative comments here at VI-C. I mean, you don't have to agree.. but keep it civil man.
> 
> People claiming that it would never have been picked by a director when the final judgement came from the showrunners is just beyond me. I do hope for them that they see the light when their dissapointment has faded, if they have any ambitions to survive in the industry.
> 
> That being said, I'm just gonna go ahead and congratulate David. I loved his entry. And thank you Spitfire for an amazing competition. Don't let it get to you too much guys. Honestly!


Pls don’t feel sad, if it’s getting to you, don’t feel you can’t pick the phone up and call. Just pm’d me.


----------



## AndyP

I wonder what Weird Al Jankovic would say about all this?

Who let the cows out? Moo, moo, moo...


----------



## synkrotron

SamC said:


> David was smart in recognising what would stand out in a competition of 11,000 and not an actual score requested by a director.



I disagree.

David made it clear in one of his other posts that he did not listen to any of the other entries, so how would he have known "what would stand out?"


----------



## toomanynotes

actually im offering a help line for anyone who has a stinging forte pain around the crack..don’t despair, message me we can talk it through.


----------



## FinGael

Eptesicus said:


> I wasn't the one to compare it to politics.



I was speaking generally to everyone (except the getting heads checked - part). There is a good reason the political sub forum exists; I think we all know where it leads if the Pandora's Box o' Chocolada is being opened elsewhere.

And all good. I haven't taken anything personally. Cheers.


----------



## Eptesicus

FinGael said:


> I was speaking generally to everyone (except the getting heads checked - part). There is a good reason the political sub forum exist; we all know where it lead if the Pandora's box is being opened elsewhere.
> 
> And all good. I haven't taken anything personally. Cheers.



No I agree. I was just pointimg out how i thought it was a bad analogy.

The last thing we really need is for politics to be brought into it


----------



## SamC

synkrotron said:


> I disagree.
> 
> David made it clear in one of his other posts that he did not listen to any of the other entries, so how would he have known "what would stand out?"



So what are you suggesting? You don’t have to listen to the entries. One watch of the scene and you can guess which way the general consensus will swing - String ostinatos and big percussion. It’s a chase scene. That was a huge percentage of entries.

I’m sure intuitively he at least knew that not a lot of people were going to do a hybrid chiptune score! You know when you’re taking risks and when you’re playing it safe, I’m sure David knew he was taking a creative risk and he was rewarded for it.


----------



## Zedcars

I’m surprised so many people went for the generic action movie tropes. It’s obvious that’s kind of a waste of time in a competition scenario. And to compare this to a real world gig is also a mistake.

I’m still absolutely fuming my rusty gate competition entry did not win top prize...it’s an absolute travesty I tells ya! 😉


----------



## FinGael

Zedcars said:


> I’m surprised so many people went for the generic action movie tropes. It’s obvious that’s kind of a waste of time in a competition scenario. And to compare this to a real world gig is also a mistake.
> 
> I’m still absolutely fuming my rusty gate competition entry did not win top prize...it’s an absolute travesty I tells ya! 😉



Maybe your braaams were outdated? It is easily fixed by buying some more recent libraries


----------



## pawelmorytko

Geez whatever happened to good sportsmanship where you congratulate the winners and move on?


----------



## Beluga

Marketing experience gone terribly wrong. Rather than attracting thousands of potential customers it pissed them off. Will need some new clever marketing to straighten that out. I’m sure they will figure it out.


----------



## mrnanovideos

When I first heard the winning entry, it definitely caught me off guard. While I personally wouldn't have picked it myself, it doesn't take away from it's value as a piece of music and I think as a composition it does a unique and great job at making itself a cohesive piece of music. Loved how the main theme was used and developed throughout the score and how it was transformed as the scene went on. Sure, some parts were a little much for me, but that's more personal taste. As someone who has never watched Westworld, I did some research and based off what I understood about the premise of the episode this scene came from, it certainly played well in the direction in what I believe the director/producer might be looking for. They used the Love Story theme for crying out loud haha! Brilliant. Those YouTube comments though . . . Yikes. Anyways, as someone watching from the sidelines, it was fun to watch and congrats to all the winners!


----------



## Zedcars

pawelmorytko said:


> Geez whatever happened to good sportsmanship where you congratulate the winners and move on?


That reminds me of someone...


----------



## easyrider

How has this thread gone from a composing Competition to Trump?


----------



## reutunes

Never in my life have a seen such a bunch of whining entitled babies. It makes me ashamed to occasionally call myself a composer.

Lighten up people, nobody died...


----------



## pawelmorytko

This whole thing reminds me of my university lecturer, who only likes one kind of music really.

So when I had an assignment and I wrote what i thought was a really nice orchestral track that sounded pretty realistic and very professional and high quality, my lecturer shits on it and gives me a low grade.

But when i made something quirky and minimalistic that I knew he would like, because i know the style that he likes, even though i might not enjoy it, i got a much much higher grade. 

Point is, what you might think is great someone else might think is shit, and what you might think is shit someone else will think is great. So you have to compose with that in mind, to please the director/whoever is paying you, and not compose to please other composers. So you can voice your opinions about how you don't think the music fits the scene, but the judges obviously thought otherwise, and it's them calling the shots, not you.


----------



## FinGael

easyrider said:


> How has this thread gone from a composing Competition to Trump?



I think it was a just a mistake; someone didn't notice that he/she did not type the last two letters of trumpet. Then all hell broke loose and now we have pandemias and such. Care to have an ice cream?


----------



## yiph2

Zedcars said:


> That reminds me of someone...



Well that time he was right, unlike people who are still salty about the competition


----------



## easyrider

yiph2 said:


> Well that time he was right, unlike people who are still salty about the competition



The umpire was just following the rules of the game....


----------



## Brasart

I feel for the Spitfire team who had to sit through thousands of shit-ass entries from shit-ass entitled composers, only to have them whine like hell because someone better than them won the contest.

1st place was fun, smart, catchy, well-executed & very bold. It got me laughing, smiling and is already the only entry I can remember between him and all the other runner-ups.

But I have to say I'm not surprised as the insanely massive entitlement and negativity from the online wannabe composers community — which we are somewhat shielded from in VI-C, thankfully.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

The gag...


Jay Panikkar said:


> And no, the Russians most certainly didn't hack the competition.



...is about floating conspiracy theories for the purpose of defaming/devaluing the outcome of an event. 

This is what some people are doing to David Kudell, and it's bullshit.

Ritualistic defamation—a.k.a "cancel culture"—is extremely detrimental to individuals, groups and markets. Stop this kind of behaviour before it (inevitably) rebounds back onto you.

Don't bring any of your personal politics to this matter: it's irrelevant and nobody cares. 

Also, Godwin's Law 2020: "As a discussion on the Internet grows longer, the likelihood of a Trump reference, increases..."


----------



## michalioz

The winner is whoever the judges think sounds right, even if it's a 4 minutes 16 seconds silence, indeed. It's their game, their rules, their call, indeed. The same way, if you come to my house, whether you're having dinner or just water or nothing, or I am kicking you out in 5 minutes it's my call. It's perfectly legal, it's even ethical, but it's not what you were expecting.

So MAYBE, people were expecting a longer video, the exact number of participants (no reason to round this number), a greetings video from the HBO panel, a technical analysis on the winners, details about the judging process and any learnings that came out of it and maybe send an email to people who made it to subsequent rounds (being within the first 100 still matters!).

It's not a good time for anyone to get defensive (and it's useless anyway) including Spitfire. We can all learn from it and move on.

I hope that all these awful YT comments weren't personal, we are an amazing community of artists, people who supposedly understand each other just a bit better.

Personally I had a GREAT time doing this. I didn't expect to win anyway but was disappointed at the announcement as it felt rushed and something was a bit off to be honest. Also looking at competitions here and there, this one was by far the most direct and exciting. Sincere thanks for that and looking forward to the next one!

PS: Anyone knows what library was used for the drums of the winning score? Really impressive!


----------



## yiph2

easyrider said:


> The umpire was just following the rules of the game....


Yes, but the ball was clearly in


----------



## Zedcars

yiph2 said:


> Yes, but the ball was clearly in


You cannot be serious.


----------



## SymphonicSamples

Ok, crazy crazy thread. I didn't enter the competition and didn't follow it at all so no emotional investment, hell I haven't written music at all for years now but I thought I'll take a listen and see for myself. In all honestly I probably would have had a mental musical meltdown if it was part of my job to go through all the entries and sift through sooooo much music, what a monumental task. I mean if I had to eat McDonald's 3 times a day everyday for weeks on end and had a meal that was different I'd sure as hell remember it. I have no doubt there would have been a lot of clever wonderful well crafted music to go through indeed, but you know what I enjoyed the winning entries approach and it would have been an example of that one meal that was different. Writing music to visuals is a wonderful experience and if you can go back to it in 6 months and still love what you did then you have achieved something that made the journey worth it.


----------



## Peros

So i did not participate - you can't count me in the "sore losers/butt-hurt" categories. 
But seriously, the music is quirky and unexpected so you could tick the box of creative inventiveness and to some extent i quite liked it. But do you guys honestly feel the winner enhanced the viewing experience and storytelling of the scene?? I mean the clip was from WestWorld, a show where AI has advanced to a point where they are sentient and you put a 8bit sound?? It could have worked if he had sticked to putting it when the actor was changing genres using it for a few bars here and then. - then again that's how i see it but clearly i must be wrong.

If the competition was yeah lets have fun, do whatever the hell you want then ok - but the emphasis here was on the show, the scene, the STORYTELLING & the partnership with HBO. Somebody said that on YT and i agree, "if they are serious, then put something like that in the next episodes of the show and let's see how it goes." cause apparently the winning score fits all the criteria to be on the show.

As it goes and like very often on this forum, it's either you are butthurt or total fanboy. No in between, and no real discussion. sad 

Anyway just my humble opinion.


----------



## Erick - BVA

christianhenson said:


> I'm overjoyed by the VI-C reaction here. Fuck me have you seen the YouTube comments
> 
> YOWZERS
> 
> I've not been involved in this competition but I would if given the chance scream out to the haters and say
> 
> WHAT CAN YOU LEARN FROM THIS
> 
> Being different fucking matters... People book you for your mind not your ability to ape shit other people have done. This guy took 2-3 genres and bent them into a brilliantly executed cue that beat 11,000
> 
> ELEVEN THOUSAND
> 
> People taking part.
> 
> Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry
> 
> Tarrantino
> Ferrara
> Lee
> De Palma
> Scorsese
> Allen
> Wright
> 
> ???
> 
> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.
> 
> This is the fundamental error we so often make, we judge ourselves in the minds of ourselves as composers, not with empathy towards the people who's work we're paid to enhance, who's stories we're paid to help tell.
> 
> BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
> 
> This is real life, I remember the first 5 years of my professional life saying "how the fuck did that shit win over my pitch???" for every single job I went up for....
> 
> So for me, a massive lesson to be learned.... probably not least by us at Spitfire.
> 
> Getting to sleep tonight is gonna be tough.
> 
> Love to you all for the intelligence!
> 
> C. x


To be honest, I don't think De Palma or Scorcese would have picked the entry. Doesn't seem like it would be their style.
But all contests are subjective, and the hypothetical doesn't matter. The judges thought the piece was deserving, so everyone should just try to learn the best they can from it and move on.


----------



## mk-oh-one

josephspirits said:


> At least a few of the winners embraced the genre change a bit. Was a bit surprised by some of the ones that didn’t make it, even out of the small pool I watched. You never know.



Personally, though as I've said I'm not really in this game, I thought the take on the "genre" drug experience was both pushed to the fore too much and taken way too literally. But then the same is true for the score they actually used, which also doesn't work IMO. I suspect Ramin was given a very explicit brief for the scene. He is better than that. 

No - the winner was both lazy and laughable. 

And there were other entries which "dared to be different"...


----------



## pawelmorytko

Ultimately, it's a winner picked by the judges, not the community.

Although it would be interesting to see the reaction had another entry won, and people were like "i mean sure this winning entry fits the scene great, but it just doesn't stand out, know what i mean? Like it works well and sits nicely in the background but it juts sounds like a hans zimmer clone, I wish it was a bit more original and unique, like that David Kudell's entry with the changing genres"


----------



## Erick - BVA

Peros said:


> So i did not participate - you can't count me in the "sore losers/butt-hurt" categories.
> But seriously, the music is quirky and unexpected so you could tick the box of creative inventiveness and to some extent i quite liked it. But do you guys honestly feel the winner enhanced the viewing experience and storytelling of the scene?? I mean the clip was from WestWorld, a show where AI has advanced to a point where they are sentient and you put a 8bit sound?? It could have worked if he had sticked to putting it when the actor was changing genres using it for a few bars here and then. - then again that's how i see it but clearly i must be wrong.
> 
> If the competition was yeah lets have fun, do whatever the hell you want then ok - but the emphasis here was on the show, the scene, the STORYTELLING & the partnership with HBO. Somebody said that on YT and i agree, "if they are serious, then put something like that in the next episodes of the show and let's see how it goes." cause apparently the winning score fits all the criteria to be on the show.
> 
> As it goes and like very often on this forum, it's either you are butthurt or total fanboy. No in between, and no real discussion. sad
> 
> Anyway just my humble opinion.


Yeah, I felt the 8-bit sounds lasted too long and was done too literally. It seemed too forced and unnatural. But definitely creative and unexpected. All we can do is learn from the experience and apply what we can to our own creative process. Contests are subjective, and with 11,000+ entries, you are bound to get some people upset, especially when one of the more unconventional entries is chosen. The winning composer shouldn't take it personally either. No reason to believe it didn't deserve it. Let the haters hate. They'll be worse off for it. 
We should definitely be encouraging an honest discussion though. Just because we didn't much like the approach, doesn't mean we're haters.


----------



## mk-oh-one

Michael Stibor said:


> But that’s not how “rules” work. That’s how guidelines work. That’s how “suggestions” work.
> 
> Personally, I didnt even notice that there were changes to the audio in the winning track. And personally, I don’t they made a difference in the artistic outcome either way. But you can’t say “oh well, so a rule or two gets fudged”. That makes no sense. I was conscious to follow the rules to a T, as were many others. So it’s fair for them to be insulted that rules were thrown out the window for the winner, when they were kept firmly in check for everyone else.


Precisely.


----------



## mk-oh-one

pawelmorytko said:


> Ultimately, it's a winner picked by the judges, not the community.
> 
> Although it would be interesting to see the reaction had another entry won, and people were like "i mean sure this winning entry fits the scene great, but it just doesn't stand out, know what i mean? Like it works well and sits nicely in the background but it juts sounds like a hans zimmer clone, I wish it was a bit more original and unique, like that David Kudell's entry with the changing genres"


Hah, hah.


----------



## Fab4

Hello folks.

I thought i should score the scene as i was the real composer so i tried to fit the mood of the scene.
I've never seen Westworld so i didn't know anything about it a tried to create a classic action soundtrack which evolves in a rock/metal soundtrack, to be creative.
My error was to think i should be the real composer.
My two cents.


----------



## Erick - BVA

Brasart said:


> I feel for the Spitfire team who had to sit through thousands of shit-ass entries from shit-ass entitled composers, only to have them whine like hell because someone better than them won the contest.
> 
> 1st place was fun, smart, catchy, well-executed & very bold. It got me laughing, smiling and is already the only entry I can remember between him and all the other runner-ups.
> 
> But I have to say I'm not surprised as the insanely massive entitlement and negativity from the online wannabe composers community — which we are somewhat shielded from in VI-C, thankfully.


I think you've kind of gone too far the other way now. I wasn't involved in the competition myself, but I'm surprised by your lack of empathy.
There are composer who've spent maybe days working and toiling on this. A very unconventional entry was chosen, which kind of went against what would be expected. I think you would even learn in composing school not to take a scene too literally. I could imagine a professor saying "it actually makes the music become larger than the picture, and can potentially detract from the scene." But as in life, there are always excpetions. The judges saw this as an exception. We should be allowed to discuss this, disagree, debate, etc. I don't think people should be vitriolic or mean, but I also don't think people should not be allowed to express disagreement.
Wouldn't we all benefit from discussing this? It could kind of become its own little "master class"
My comments are coming from as an objective place as I can muster. I didn't take part in the competition, and I'm not a well known composer, so I guess I'm coming from an outsider's perspective who likes to think he knows something about composing for film/TV haha.
I think any debate or discussion gives us all an opportunity to learn. And perhaps we can even learn from the haters 🤣


----------



## pawelmorytko

mk-oh-one said:


> Hah, hah.


I guess we'll never know if I'm right or wrong, but I do think it was impossible to please everyone when picking a single winner out of so many, insanely amazing, high professional quality level entries. You could have had a 100 different judges picking their favourite one out of the 11,000 entries, and you probably would have had 100 different winners.


----------



## Digivolt

Really surprised the 8bit song won, yes it was musically amazing, yes it was well produced, but in no way does it fit the media it's underscoring to so I can totally understand why there's backlash on this


----------



## Erick - BVA

Digivolt said:


> Really surprised the 8bit song won, yes it was musically amazing, yes it was well produced, but in no way does it fit the media it's underscoring to so I can totally understand why there's backlash on this


Who knows, it may be one of those things that grows on you. Sometimes things seem "wrong" at first.


----------



## toomanynotes

pawelmorytko said:


> Geez whatever happened to good sportsmanship where you congratulate the winners and move on?


Eh? Let think the last time i congratulated a comp winner, yeah back at school when i was 12. That was it. I’m not used to it, but i better get used to it 🤣


----------



## toomanynotes

Sibelius19 said:


> Who knows, it may be one of those things that grows on you. Sometimes things seem "wrong" at first.


you r correct, if you allow yourself to listen to anything, you start to like it. I have to admit I haven’t listened to the winning piece, I gave it 1min though.


----------



## Erick - BVA

toomanynotes said:


> you r correct, if you allow yourself to listen to anything, you start to like it.


I hear country all the time. Still don't like it...


----------



## toomanynotes

Sibelius19 said:


> I hear country all the time. Still don't like it...


But you appreciate it.


----------



## Erick - BVA

toomanynotes said:


> But you appreciate it.


Nope.
🤣

Well, if you want to get technical, I like older country, which doesn't really resemble current country music.


----------



## stevedeath

Regardless of the approach taken I thought it was pretty poorly executed myself, very basic and literal. Look at something like Scott Pilgrim vs the World as an example of creatively integrating computer game music and film score into something fresh and unique - not just two pastiches glued together.

Still though, no need for the composer to be getting stick, he just entered his idea and it ended up winning, its not his fault. 

And ultimately its up to Spitfire and the judges on who wins, so...


----------



## toomanynotes

Sibelius19 said:


> Nope.
> 🤣
> 
> Well, if you want to get technical, I like older country, which doesn't really resemble current country music.


Nothing current resembles music! 😂


----------



## toomanynotes

stevedeath said:


> Regardless of the approach taken I thought it was pretty poorly executed myself, very basic and literal. Look at something like Scott Pilgrim vs the World as an example of creatively integrating computer game music and film score into something fresh and unique - not just two pastiches glued together.
> 
> Still though, no need for the composer to be getting stick, he just entered his idea and it ended up winning, its not his fault.
> 
> And ultimately its up to Spitfire and the judges on who wins, so...


i don’t think this was a serious comp. The winner knew it.


----------



## Peros

christianhenson said:


> Name me any of these directors who wouldn't have picked this entry
> 
> Tarrantino
> Ferrara
> Lee
> De Palma
> Scorsese
> Allen
> Wright
> 
> ???
> 
> You are not being judged by your peers, you're being judged by your (potential) paymasters.



With all due respect, I think if you had used a scene to score from any of those directors, people would be more expecting of the "creative inventiveness" as the main point to be judged.

and secondly, if it were any of those directors, the scene would have been VASSSTLY different in terms of mood, feel, pace, etc.... 

So basically what you wanted was "Score this scene from a world renowned show directed by very known director as if it was another director than the one of the actual show that would make the decision?? 

The actual director of the show isn't even in the list names. Does that mean that he would not have picked this entry for his show?

Being different and Being different while on point are two different things..

Again not hating against the winner here..I already mentioned i quite liked the quirkiness of his piece but the runner ups were more deserving in terms of storytelling and enhancement of the viewing experience (again in my humble opinion)


----------



## Erick - BVA

toomanynotes said:


> Nothing current resembles music! 😂


Speaking of music of the past, and more relevant to this thread I suppose, I grew up on 8-bit music. I think it was my first love. The Mega Man 3 soundtrack will always cause me to tear up and get nostalgic... oh childhood memories.


----------



## Cathbad

I saw a comment from David Kudell about the rationale for the 8-bit style. In Season 3 of Westworld there's a drug called Genre which makes users feel like they're in different types of movies. This is what he was trying to portray. 

OK, I get that. It makes sense to me, and therefore his music also makes more sense. But I've only seen the first season of Westworld and the last thing I remember is poor Hannibal Lecter getting shot. So taking a creative decision like Mr Kudell's wouldn't have been apparent to me from watching the scene, nor from my knowledge of the show, nor from the brief - such as it was.

Credit to the winner for considering this, but if this was really "what they were looking for" why not just say so in the brief? Then we can have a contest based on musical criteria, not on who knows the most Westworld lore.

So there's a tension here. On one hand we're asked to write something suitable and effective. For that, we have to rely at least somewhat on established conventions of music and film, plus what we can glean from the material we're given. Even the music to The Third Man did. On the other hand, there's a requirement to be different, without any pointers about why or in what sort of way. And perhaps the judges didn't really know themselves. So it's a rather frustrating endeavour when one has to second guess what a client/judge wants without them being willing to say, or without them giving it some thought and articulating it, or without the opportunity to discuss it with them. 

When the merits and the rationale of the winning music aren't readily apparent to so many viewers, I think it's foolish to dismiss negative or puzzled reactions as "haters" or "sore losers." Firstly because it's usually a bad idea to insult and alienate your audience/customers/colleagues. Secondly because if part of the competition was an Easter Egg hunt, a bit of explanation might have dispelled any resentment. It could also have been an opportunity to draw people deeper into the culture of the Westworld show, plus here's how you can achieve a similar effect using a Spitfire library...


----------



## Erick - BVA

Cathbad said:


> I saw a comment from David Kudell about the rationale for the 8-bit style. In Season 3 of Westworld there's a drug called Genre which makes users feel like they're in different types of movies. This is what he was trying to portray.
> 
> OK, I get that. It makes sense to me, and therefore his music also makes more sense. But I've only seen the first season of Westworld and the last thing I remember is poor Hannibal Lecter getting shot. So taking a creative decision like Mr Kudell's wouldn't have been apparent to me from watching the scene, nor from my knowledge of the show, nor from the brief - such as it was.
> 
> Credit to the winner for considering this, but if this was really "what they were looking for" why not just say so in the brief? Then we can have a contest based on musical criteria, not on who knows the most Westworld lore.
> 
> So there's a tension here. On one hand we're asked to write something suitable and effective. For that, we have to rely at least somewhat on established conventions of music and film, plus what we can glean from the material we're given. Even the music to The Third Man did. On the other hand, there's a requirement to be different, without any pointers about why or in what sort of way. And perhaps the judges didn't really know themselves. So it's a rather frustrating endeavour when one has to second guess what a client/judge wants without them being willing to say, or without them giving it some thought and articulating it, or without the opportunity to discuss it with them.
> 
> When the merits and the rationale of the winning music aren't readily apparent to so many viewers, I think it's foolish to dismiss negative or puzzled reactions as "haters" or "sore losers." Firstly because it's usually a bad idea to insult and alienate your audience/customers/colleagues. Secondly because if part of the competition was an Easter Egg hunt, a bit of explanation might have dispelled any resentment. It could also have been an opportunity to draw people deeper into the culture of the Westworld show, plus here's how you can achieve a similar effect using a Spitfire library...


I think part of being a composer though is doing research and drawing upon the knowledge gleaned from that. And I think having too many criteria can be stifling in a way.


----------



## ThomCSounds

Hey guys,

Can we all go to David's Youtube page and give him a like on his videos and/or subscribe? The fact that some people disagree with the results is one thing, going to his page to discredit all his work is another (and some pretty darn good compositions as well!).

I don't know David by the way. I just don't feel like this type of behaviour is fair.

As a touring musician and producer I've had to face rejection more times than I can count. And most of the time, there isn't an answer as to why my stuff isn't selected. That's just the way it is. And I've learned to move on as quick as my entries were sent. Don't even get me started on the "demo submissions" to labels. A competition is two things : A way of learning how to improve and a way to connect and get exposure.

The only real contest I've won in my life was a live music contest. And I remember that day just as if it were yesterday. I didn't take it seriously at all. I went there with my musicians (I'm a solo artist) to "just have a bit of fun", and I've considered every other competition I took part in just like that. "A bit of fun".

It doesn't mean that I didn't put in the time to do it right, or that I don't take my job seriously. My job is my life. But I had the mindset that made me take it easy.

Anyway, it'd be nice to reverse the tendency on the like/dislike counter on some of his compositions : https://www.youtube.com/user/MrArchieGates/videos


----------



## easyrider

Fab4 said:


> I thought i should score the scene as i was the real composer so i tried to fit the mood of the scene.
> 
> My error was to think i should be the real composer.



What does a real composer actually mean? Was John Cage not a real composer with his 4’33”


----------



## Eptesicus

ThomCSounds said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Can we all go to David's Youtube page and give him a like on his videos and/or subscribe? The fact that some people disagree with the results is one thing, going to his page to discredit all his work is another (and some pretty darn good compositions as well!).
> 
> I don't know David by the way. I just don't feel like this type of behaviour is fair.
> 
> As a touring musician and producer I've had to face rejection more times than I can count. And most of the time, there isn't an answer as to why my stuff isn't selected. That's just the way it is. And I've learned to move on as quick as my entries were sent. Don't even get me started on the "demo submissions" to labels. A competition is two things : A way of learning how to improve and a way to connect and get exposure.
> 
> The only real contest I've won in my life was a live music contest. And I remember that day just as if it were yesterday. I didn't take it seriously at all. I went there with my musicians (I'm a solo artist) to "just have a bit of fun", and I've considered every other competition I took part in just like that. "A bit of fun".
> 
> It doesn't mean that I didn't put in the time to do it right, or that I don't take my job seriously. My job is my life. But I had the mindset that made me take it easy.
> 
> Anyway, it'd be nice to reverse the tendency on the like/dislike counter on some of his compositions : https://www.youtube.com/user/MrArchieGates/videos



This is another example of conflating two different things.

The vast majority, maybe even all, of the people who disagree are not saying "why didn't I win". They are saying " why did this win".

That is two completely different things and just categorises any criticism of the decision as sour grapes.


----------



## Raphioli

Congrats to the winner and the runners-up!
I'm listening to them, including the ones posted in the spin off thread as well.
A lot of catching up to do


----------



## mk-oh-one

pawelmorytko said:


> I guess we'll never know if I'm right or wrong, but I do think it was impossible to please everyone when picking a single winner out of so many, insanely amazing, high professional quality level entries. You could have had a 100 different judges picking their favourite one out of the 11,000 entries, and you probably would have had 100 different winners.



Doesn't need to be a Hans Zimmer (or anything else) clone. Why assume that? I very much doubt it would actually get used. 

They were probably overwhelmed by the number of entries but they shouldn't have been with a 1st prize of that value, and with the profile boost the winner would have got. 

The rules were broken. A competition rule is not like a note or a bit of guidance from a director to a composer. Other people doing that would have expected to be disqualified. 

This is not a good day for Sptitfire however they try to gloss it (and I realise they only had a part to play in the decision). 

As to the music itself. For me it just doesn't work (and neither did the actual score). Skillfully done, I'll grant you. Unexpected, sure. But actually not very original either. The thing that made it stand out is the gimmick of breaking into 8-bit. Beyond that it's very well executed and produced and _*conventional*_. And I repeat it just doesn't work.


----------



## Cathbad

Sibelius19 said:


> I think part of being a composer though is doing research and drawing upon the knowledge gleaned from that. And I think having too many criteria can be stifling in a way.



True. But if specific knowledge of the finer points of the show is a preferred criterion for success, it might be helpful to say so, rather than letting people take blind guesses about "what they're looking for."

Reminds me of a time in university when we had to analyse the structure of a cello piece by Xenakis. As instructed, I listened to it several times and concluded that there was no structure discernible to a listener. It was 4 minutes of manic scraping. This was The Wrong Answer. The Right Answer was to be found in a journal article somewhere deep in the bowels of the library. Xenakis had written tiny fragments of scraping and then plotted them on a grid on the faces of a cube. He then used a formula to dictate which fragment followed which. 

Now I defy anyone to listen to the piece and think, "Ooooh he's plotted it on the faces of a cube and is using this formula to move around the cube." Only some kind of savant could do that. And we were briefed to do OUR OWN analysis, not a review of other analyses. I thought it was a little unfair that the answer was some kind of secret key outside the stated terms of the assignment, rather than something that could be arrived at by good faith musicological enquiry.


----------



## ThomCSounds

Eptesicus said:


> This is another example of conflating two different things.
> 
> The vast majority, maybe even all, of the people who disagree are not saying "why didn't I win". They are saying " why did this win".
> 
> That is two completely different things and just categorises any criticism of the decision as sour grapes.



I understand that, not that I felt it for this particular entry but I've felt the same thing with other contests when it came to live music. But I moved on almost directly (and for some pretty "serious" contests as well). I swallowed my feeling of injustice and moved on. Or the feeling of the winner not being the one that should've been selected. 

Some of the comments I've read can't be justified in any way though. However unfair the verdict may seem. There's some plain disrespect in the comments and this is not how one should address something they find unfair.


----------



## Digivolt

Sibelius19 said:


> Who knows, it may be one of those things that grows on you. Sometimes things seem "wrong" at first.



It won't grow on me in the same way having Rick Astleys Never gonna give you up wouldn't grow on me if it was the score for Schindler's List or The Benny Hill theme was the score for a Bridge too far (A little extreme but you get the idea)

It's the musical equivalent of putting a square peg in a round hole, it doesn't mean the peg is bad, it just doesn't fit and will never fit


----------



## RmPvt

My theory : this was supposed to be a way to distract ourselves from covid-19, but I think it might have been an aggravating factor in the backlash.

In these difficult times, young composers are extremely vulnerable and isolated.
Projects have been canceled, gigs have been delayed.
What many of us need is work, not fun. Many aspiring "professionals" had nothing else to do than working on this competition for days or even weeks, and have interpreted this competition as a way to prove themselves, irrationnaly hoping for self-promotion, trying way too hard to get recognition from other composers.
Or at least, many chose the obvious "ostinato, taikos and braams" stuff to train skills that they deemed were more required in the industry, and expected the winning entry to humble them and motivate them to "get better" at this specific approach. But what comes out of it is a feeling of "I could have done this, had I not tried so hard to impress Ramin Djawadi".
It's a naive and immature mindset, but I think it's been exacerbated by the frustration we all already had from lockdown (and let's face it, short and dry announcements are common, but inviting people to a youtube live just for this was not appropriate).

After sleeping on this, I totally agree with Christian. Although I can't believe it works to *that* extreme in real life, standing out is key in this exercise, and there's no reason to be mad about an online scoring contest.
I should have known, most public competitions end up like this, in every artistic domain. It's always hard to take the results correctly, it's irritating to see that more experienced composers don't agree with your disappointment, it's tough to learn that these veterans have a mindset that's completely opposed to yours and that you don't understand shit yet. It takes efforts to reassess yourself this much, so it's a natural reaction to first blame others. Not that all comments were acceptable, but let's say it's a big misunderstanding from both parts, sprinkled with a strong emotionnal involvement from 11k people. Let's just hope than everyone will eventually get what it's all about.

So thanks Spitfire, thanks Paul for the organization and Christian for the clarification. Congratulation to David and the other runners-up, you all did what you had to. And I'll try to use this amazing human superpower that is empathy and feel glad for you !


(also, on a personnal note : I had figured out that the genre scene was all about picking an eccentric style, but as it had already been done in the show I told myself "hey, what if it had been scored 'normally' instead ?", so I consciously chose the cheesy blockbuster scoring.
Is that "thinking outside of outside the box", or does it just loop back to "inside the box" ?)


----------



## Mark Evans

Spitfire clearly should have said at the start: "For those composers too lazy to do a couple of minutes research, Westworld is a flashy/trashy sci-fi series based on a film with a Michael Crichton script. It is not a documentary about Dostoyevsky. Also, the protagonist is off his face on a wacky drug so when he gurns, he is not channeling Einstein wrestling with his Theory of Relativity."


----------



## wayne_rowley

Hmm... I’m loathe to write this, but here goes anyway.

Spitfire/HBO have the right to choose the winner of _their_ competition. Just as a Director who is selecting which composer they want to work with has the right to choose who they want to work with. Yes, they may use certain criteria, they may give a brief, but ultimate their choice is down to what _they like the best_. You, or I as the composer may not agree it‘s the best, may not like it, but frankly our opinions don’t matter, because it’s not our decision.

Anyone who has ever pitched for anything will know this. 

Frankly, bleating on about rules, genres, style, what research was/wasn’t done, how well they followed or deviated from the brief is pointless, _unless_ it’s from the perspective of trying learn something or to work out how to do things better for the next one. When we lost in out in pitches we would often try to analyse what we could do better etc. But even that is only helpful to a point, because a lot of the time it comes down to luck, or personal preference, or striking up a good relationship.

From many of the comments I have seen - particularly on YouTube or FaceBook, some people are just sore losers - and that’s sad to see.

Congratulations to David and the runners-up!


----------



## BlueStacc

ThomCSounds said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Can we all go to David's Youtube page and give him a like on his videos and/or subscribe? The fact that some people disagree with the results is one thing, going to his page to discredit all his work is another (and some pretty darn good compositions as well!).
> 
> I don't know David by the way. I just don't feel like this type of behaviour is fair.
> 
> As a touring musician and producer I've had to face rejection more times than I can count. And most of the time, there isn't an answer as to why my stuff isn't selected. That's just the way it is. And I've learned to move on as quick as my entries were sent. Don't even get me started on the "demo submissions" to labels. A competition is two things : A way of learning how to improve and a way to connect and get exposure.
> 
> The only real contest I've won in my life was a live music contest. And I remember that day just as if it were yesterday. I didn't take it seriously at all. I went there with my musicians (I'm a solo artist) to "just have a bit of fun", and I've considered every other competition I took part in just like that. "A bit of fun".
> 
> It doesn't mean that I didn't put in the time to do it right, or that I don't take my job seriously. My job is my life. But I had the mindset that made me take it easy.
> 
> Anyway, it'd be nice to reverse the tendency on the like/dislike counter on some of his compositions : https://www.youtube.com/user/MrArchieGates/videos


People really go to his channel and dislike his videos because of him winning the competition? Awful and sad :( Gave him a view deserved likes! Thanks for your post


----------



## kojoro

To those raging on about the winning entry: I suggest you channel your energy into understanding why it won instead. Hint: it isn't a conspiracy or random. There are good reasons why this piece connected.


----------



## pawelmorytko

kojoro said:


> To those raging on about the winning entry: I suggest you channel your energy into understanding why it won instead. Hint: it isn't a conspiracy or random. There are good reasons why this piece connected.


Unfortunately changing people's opinions, and especially their taste in music is pretty much an impossible feat


----------



## Alex Fraser

Cathbad said:


> So it's a rather frustrating endeavour when one has to second guess what a client/judge wants without them being willing to say, or without them giving it some thought and articulating it, or without the opportunity to discuss it with them.


Then clearly the competition was a realistic portrayal of media composing.


----------



## ThomCSounds

BlueStacc said:


> People really go to his channel and dislike his videos because of him winning the competition? Awful and sad :( Gave him a view deserved likes! Thanks for your post



Well, I've seen a lot of undeserved dislikes on his other videos, and I'm pretty sure it's because of the contest.


----------



## Cathbad

I didn't enter so I don't have a dog in the fight, but here's a suggestion for Spitfire: take a leaf out of OT's book and offer a small prize to all participants, and a store voucher.

Everyone comes away with more than they brought. Entrants get the new Triple Felt GamechangingBoy library with 109 articulations and 27 mic positions (terrible legato on the D-Pad, though). Spitfire gets some goodwill and new customers.

And from the judges, a few minutes of their time to offer some comments, encouragement, hints & tips would be gracious, and a valuable prize in itself.


----------



## Dr.Quest

Alex Fraser said:


> Then clearly the competition was a realistic portrayal of media composing.


This is more then just a little true.


----------



## Sheridan

Given the massive reaction to the topic I just couldn't stop myself from creating a reaction video. Hope you all take it for the satire that it is. And big congratulations to David and the runner-ups!

https://www.kapwing.com/videos/5ef8ec51085a9200155a7e5f (Hitler reacts to the Westworld competition result)


----------



## mk-oh-one

Alex Fraser said:


> Then clearly the competition was a realistic portrayal of media composing.


But it didn't have to be. 

It was a competition, with rules, at least one of which was broken by the winner. Most entrants would not have dared do this for fear of being disqualified.

I note with interest that on the announcement video on Spitfire's Youtube channel the number of like vs dislikes is no longer showing. Defensive and sad.


----------



## Saxer

I guess the competition was mainly built as a public character test.


----------



## Ed Wine

classified_the_x said:


> the difference is that if you didn't tell me, I'd not have known about OT's contest... the hype was much bigger in Spitfire's.
> 
> I expected something that focused more on orchestral samples to be the winner though. I wondered if I'd have disadvantages if I used other brand libraries lol. In the end winner was not so focused on traditional instruments, but I came to learn that Spitfire has been releasing some synths and such.


Spitfire Audio "8bit Chips" released next month, complete with a tutorial by Winner David.


----------



## Eptesicus

Ed Wine said:


> Spitfire Audio "8bit Chips" released next month, complete with a tutorial by Winner David.



I guess that really would be a "game" changer


----------



## charlieclouser

Saxer said:


> I guess the competition was mainly built as a public character test.



....which an astonishing number of humans have failed.


----------



## easyrider

Sheridan said:


> Given the massive reaction to the topic I just couldn't stop myself from creating a reaction video. Hope you all take it for the satire that it is. And big congratulations to David and the runner-ups!
> 
> https://www.kapwing.com/videos/5ef89493085a920015579862 (Hitler reacts to the Westworld competition result)



Gold....


----------



## Rory

I quite enjoyed Henson's response. People can disagree about the merits of the winning and runner-up compositions, but the attacks on Spitfire and the judges are completely out of line. I got a kick out of Henson's reference to Dr. Strangelove. In the current context, he could have added A Clockwork Orange for good measure.


----------



## pawelmorytko

charlieclouser said:


> ....which an astonishing number of humans have failed.


The most disappointing part of this competition is being reminded, or for some people realising how toxic and negative this community can be. Tearing and pulling each other down, instead of standing strong together, and celebrating the competition in good spirits. 

Oh how proud I am to be a part of such an awful, opinionated, entitled, negative, and demanding community.


----------



## Beluga

Yes, everyone, please adopt „the right“ attitude. If you still don’t know what it is, follow these simple steps:
1. congratulate the winner.
2. note how surprising, unexpected, unpredictable the submission was
3. thank Spitfire for this incredible opportunity.

This will allow you to have a good character.

Avoid the following:

1. question the broken rules.
2. question the relationship of the winner to the judge 
3. question whatever Spitfire listened to all entries.

Simple enough, you are welcome.


----------



## MartinH.

Sheridan said:


> Given the massive reaction to the topic I just couldn't stop myself from creating a reaction video. Hope you all take it for the satire that it is. And big congratulations to David and the runner-ups!
> 
> https://www.kapwing.com/videos/5ef89493085a920015579862 (Hitler reacts to the Westworld competition result)



WOW! This is amazing! I laughed out loud quite a few times, very well done, one of the best takes on that meme that I've seen so far. Thanks for that 

I think this deserves its own thread somewhere, or at least plenty of quotes in this one, so that it doesn't go under in these 22+ pages.


----------



## jeffreycl

Congratulations to David for winning with a well produced and certainly unusual score.
Congratulations to Sheridan for winning best reaction to the competition. (I know it was satire but still very well produced.) 
Both winners certainly held my attention through the videos!


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Beluga said:


> 2. question the relationship of the winner to the judge



Out of all the 'toys out of the pram' reactions, this one in particular shines a light on how clueless a lot of people are about the film/tv industry, and what it means to do a relatively small job on a film with hundreds of crew.


----------



## Rory

Beluga said:


> Yes, everyone, please adopt „the right“ attitude. If you still don’t know what it is, follow these simple steps:
> 
> 
> Avoid the following:
> 
> 
> 2. question the relationship of the winner to the judge
> 
> 
> Simple enough, you are welcome.



Yes, let's make sure that none of next year's Booker Prize judges have any prior relationship whatever with the authors whose novels are on the long or short lists.

Also, what's with this business of people voting in the Academy Awards, or I presume the BAFTAs, if they know, or indeed might have worked with, nominees?


----------



## Ed Wine

LowweeK said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> Yeah, that competition is all over the news this morning.
> 
> Media are wondering what happened.
> Psychologists are asked to state whether it’s better to be a winner or a runner up.
> 
> Jean-Michel Jarre is stating that “8-bits is the new 24-bits” and has thrown all his gear to the dump, keeping only his Gameboy.
> 
> Drug mobs are eagerly fighting over what’s called now “The Genre War”
> 
> Feeling threatened, Spitfire Audio publicly announced that they are pro-Brexit now.
> The contestants will have to prove they have at least 1/4th of British blood to enter future competitions.
> 
> JJ Abrams had to change his identity. Rumour has it he should be called Ron Howard from now on.
> 
> The next season of WestWorld is cancelled. The show will be reboot as EastWorld, shot in Korea, and telling the story of impossible love story between a low-class android and rich-class heir over 25 seasons in which it will be revealed that the android’s cog maker was the former husband of one of the rich-family maid who hold a mysterious jade bracelet.
> 
> Ford has disclosed their new voice driven golf car that can hold 4 passengers sitting front-to-front.
> First reviews state conception flaws : you have to sacrifice one seat if you want to carry non standard issue luggages. And the roof is not sealed well.
> 
> I hate this competition now...


Have you not heard that the sale of "Boycott Spitfire" t-shirts have surpassed the total net-worth of Elon Musk? Took less than 10 minutes.


----------



## Cathbad

pawelmorytko said:


> The most disappointing part of this competition is being reminded, or for some people realising how toxic and negative this community can be. Tearing and pulling each other down, instead of standing strong together, and celebrating the competition in good spirits.
> 
> Oh how proud I am to be a part of such an awful, opinionated, entitled, negative, and demanding community.



I can't understand how you see this. Lots and lots of comments mention how many good entries there were, and how well many composers tackled the challenge. And I think expecting the winning entry to be held to the same rules that other entrants had to work to is a reasonable entitlement/demand.

What bothers me much more is the attitude in your post and a few others that disliking the winning music, and saying so, is morally blameworthy. It's entirely natural to discuss the merits of the winner and try to understand the decision - politely.

@Rory I don't agree that A Clockwork Orange is a valid comparison. Alex loves a bit of Ludwig Van, and the film is set in a dystopian future. This is readily presented to the audience in exposition, so there's a clear rationale for detuned, synthy Beethoven. The rationale for putting chiptune music into a Westworld car chase is considerably more arcane.


----------



## easyrider

pawelmorytko said:


> The most disappointing part of this competition is being reminded, or for some people realising how toxic and negative this community can be. Tearing and pulling each other down, instead of standing strong together, and celebrating the competition in good spirits.
> 
> Oh how proud I am to be a part of such an awful, opinionated, entitled, negative, and demanding community.



I think the competition has created a Dominic Cummings effect....He broke lockdown rules and people were angry...People were told to stay at home...he decided to go rogue and take a trip to Barnard Castle on his wife’s birthday...

I don’t think people are salty for not winning...I think people feel that it was one rule for one and one Rule for another...

I didn’t enter the competition...and I‘m a spitfire fan...so I have no personal feel of betrayal here...But if a competition had clear rules to be adhered to and the winning entry “broke” the rules then I can understand how people feel....

Now I’m unsure of the what rule was potentially violated here..and congratulate David for winning...but in any competition there needs to be a solid foundation of right and wrong...

If a long jumpers toe goes 3mm over the line into the putty his\her jump is void...









Olympic Long Jump Rules


Learn about the rules in place for the Olympic long jump. Then, read about the equipment and techniques necessary to complete a successful long jump.




www.liveabout.com





The rules are very succinct....now one could go rogue and perform a Somersault and maybe jump the farthest but Somersaults are not permitted...

If no rules where broken then Fine....but if they were then this does raise some concerns about the process...

As said...I think what Spitfire do is great...and congrats to David..and to the spitfire team... but this go rogue remark from @christianhenson does need to be clarified in the context of the completion rules really....


----------



## Michael Stibor

Today is a new day. I have literally no emotional attachment to the events of yesterday. I’m just here for the healthy discussion/debate. But there seems to be some misunderstandings about what everyone is “whining” about. Allow me to attempt to clear some of that up.

1. No one here is a sore loser. No one is mad that their entry didn’t win. They just hoped that they’d be blown away by the winning one, and that it would contain all the elements of great scoring that maybe theirs lacked.

2. Yes, we understand that originality is important. Christian didn’t need to (condescendingly) tell us that here, as well as in his video. The fact that so many people entered a more basic, streamlined action cue is not an indication that we weren’t expecting originality from the winning entry. Many were hoping, and expecting, it to be better than their own.

3. Nobody has a problem with the 8bit style
Only that it doesn’t support the action on screen in any fashion.

4. No one is against David, or his entry. This is not a question “the winning entry sucks, mine should have won”. His music was very fun (as were many others). The issue is more that the music doesn’t match the visuals on screen (and in fact detracts from the scene as opposed to enhances it) which, in a _scoring_ competition, you would think would be a critical element.

5. It might be semantics, but the fact that the rules state to not alter the original clip in any way, has caused many to be upset. I personally don’t think the changes that were made to the audio we’re enough to be a “dealbreaker” in any way, but I agree that this is a competition. And in order for a competition to be fair, there needs to be rules applied to everyone.

To that note, Spitfire can’t have it both ways. Was this is a competition, or was this a music industry life lesson?

If it’s a competition, then the rules of that competition need to be followed. Period. You can’t say after the fact “yeah, well let that be a lesson to you all, that sometimes rules need to be broken”. Yes, we know that Chris. But this wasn’t a music industry seminar, it was a contest open to amateurs and professionals alike. Not everyone who entered is trying to “break into the biz”. So he can spare us the condescending life lessons. Again, I personally didn’t even notice that the audio track was altered (nor did I care) but I can appreciate people being annoyed by that.

Anyway, whatever. Back to real life where none of this matters. I just wanted to mention a couple points that I thought were worth mentioning, and I keep seeing them being misinterpreted as “whining”.


----------



## Mark Evans

Cathbad said:


> ...The rationale for putting chiptune music into a Westworld car chase is considerably more arcane.



It really is not.


----------



## synthesizerwriter

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Out of all the 'toys out of the pram' reactions, this one in particular shines a light on how clueless a lot of people are about the film/tv industry, and what it means to do a relatively small job on a film with hundreds of crew.



The YT chat beforehand was scary - there were over a thousand 'informed to varying degrees' people chatting excitedly more than an hour before it started. It was an echo chamber with too much feedback! They hyped the mood up into such a frenzy that I wondered how it was going to turn out...


----------



## Billy Palmer

Congratulations to @David Kudell - nice to recognise the winner!


----------



## pawelmorytko

Cathbad said:


> I can't understand how you see this. Lots and lots of comments mention how many good entries there were, and how well many composers tackled the challenge. And I think expecting the winning entry to be held to the same rules that other entrants had to work to is a reasonable entitlement/demand.
> 
> What bothers me much more is the attitude in your post and a few others that disliking the winning music, and saying so, is morally blameworthy. It's entirely natural to discuss the merits of the winner and try to understand the decision - politely.


Vi Control is the place where it's the least toxic out of the bunch, sure but I've seen a lot of negative things said on Youtube (worst offender), but places like Twitter, Facebook, and Discord too. Things that cannot be good for one's mental health. David's or the folk at Spitfire Audio.

Breaking the rules is of course wrong, and that needs to be in check though.


----------



## Cathbad

Mark Evans said:


> It really is not.




Alex mentions Beethoven many times in A Clockwork Orange. Burgess gives us a vivid description of his taste in music. If only all briefs were like this...

_The trombones crunched redgold under my bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Oh, it was wonder of wonders. And then, a bird of like rarest spun heavenmetal, or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship, gravity all nonsense now, came the violin solo above all the other strings, and those strings were like a cage of silk round my bed. Then flute and oboe bored, like worms of like platinum, into the thick thick toffee gold and silver. I was in such bliss, my brothers._

Does anyone in Westworld mention Gameboys or 8-Bit music, or Mariokart or computer game music? Other than the Westworld park being a kind of computer game, is there any indication in the material that points towards a chiptune association? Not having seen the 3rd season of the show, perhaps you can enlighten me, instead of just a flat contradiction.


----------



## brek

Cathbad said:


> Credit to the winner for considering this, but if this was really "what they were looking for" why not just say so in the brief? Then we can have a contest based on musical criteria, not on who knows the most Westworld lore.




OK, I think this is a fair criticism (though, doesn't justify the level of vitriol they are getting). It's obvious, even now, that many people don't know how important the Genre drug is to the scene. With access to the show behind a paywall, is it "fair" to ask entrants to pony up money to find this added bit of context (let's ignore all the other barriers of entry into this field)? Fwiw, it's not buried deep in Westworld lore - you need only watch the preceding 5 minutes of the episode to get this.
I don't think it would have been much to simply include this relevant bit of information in the brief, and we all - including the judges - would have been rewarded with hundreds, if not thousands, of unique and original ideas instead of dozens.


----------



## David Gosnell

christianhenson said:


> Well don't ever accuse me of not being a massive glutton for punishment!



Christian, you hit the nail right on the head - ‘Welcome to the world of being a media composer’. You have to just keep doing work you believe in and let the chips fall where they may - that way you enjoy the work and don’t base your self worth entirely on acceptance or rejection.
And, for every client who responds well to breaking from the herd - there are plenty who can’t see beyond generic; so there’s a chance for everyone 🙂


----------



## synthesizerwriter

Would Delores not be a better target for a chip-tune motif?


----------



## Eptesicus

brek said:


> I think this is a fair criticism. It's obvious, even now, that many people don't know how important the Genre drug is to the scene. With access to the show behind a paywall, is it "fair" to ask entrants to pony up money to find this added bit of context (let's ignore all the other barriers of entry into this field)? Fwiw, it's not buried deep in Westworld lore - you need only watch the preceding 5 minutes of the episode to get this.
> I don't think it would have been much to simply include this relevant bit of information in the brief, and we all - including the judges - would have been rewarded with hundreds, if not thousands, of unique and original ideas instead of dozens.



The trouble with their justification for the winner, is that it undermines the justification for the runner's up.

That is what makes the results so utterly confusing and why the backlash has been so great (in my opinion)

If they had picked 6 completely left field approaches that paid over the top service to the genre change then i think the winning entry may have been easier to identify with for people.

Instead, the winner was completely "out there" and the 5 runners up are all fairly tame in comparison. Only one of the 5 actually properly changes genre at the genre change. What makes the "daring to be different!!" mantra even more jarring is that one of the runner up entries is a complete and utter generic rip off of Zimmer's Da Vinci Code/remote control sound that makes no attempt at doing anything with the genre change.

If to win, you had to do something outlandish and different, then why weren't the runners up all the same? There were easily at least 6 genre change ideas that were very well done that i had listened to, many of which still managed to keep things within the realms of plausibility (in terms of being used for the show) as well.


----------



## jaketanner

Michael Stibor said:


> he issue is more that the music doesn’t match the visuals on screen (and in fact detracts from the scene as opposed to enhances it) which, in a _scoring_ competition, you would think would be a critical element


Agreed.


----------



## brek

Eptesicus said:


> If they had picked 6 completely left field approaches that paid over the top service to the genre change then i think the winning entry may have been easier to identify with for people.
> 
> Instead, the winner was completely "out there" and the 5 runners up are all fairly tame in comparison. Only one of the 5 actually properly changes genre at the genre change. What makes the "daring to be different!!" mantra even more jarring is that one of the runner up entries is a complete and utter generic rip off of Zimmer's Da Vinci Code/remote control sound that makes no attempt at doing anything with the genre change.



Even when picking a winner based on originality there is still room to celebrate exceptionally well done versions of the *expected* approach, and who is to say the Genre they are going for isn't Blockbuster Action?


----------



## jaketanner

<DELETED>


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## Eptesicus

brek said:


> Even when picking a winner based on originality there is still room to celebrate exceptionally well done versions of the *expected* approach, and who is to say the Genre they are going for isn't Blockbuster Action?



No, i'm sorry but that doesn't make sense.

For a start, the genre is already blockubuster action, and if you are going to pay service to the genre change you do it, at the bit where he changes genres. Otherwise it isn't a genre change is it...: /

..and no, you can't say the winner won because it was amazingly inventive and he dared to think outside the box and then choose a bunch of fairly generic ones (whilst many brilliantly inventive ones go unpicked) as the runners up.

The logic and reasoning behind the 6 they have picked is simply illogical and that is why people are angry.


----------



## Eptesicus

jaketanner said:


> But there was NO genre change at all...not visually. For those that have no clue about Westworld, and only have the visual...just because someone mentions genre change, and the visual doesn't, is not a green light to go rogue. And I thought there was too much Micky Mousing which is usually reserved for comedy...WW is not a comedy...well actually Idon't know because I don't watch it.. LOL but from that one scene alone, it certainly wasn't.



I agree with you, but that is sort of my point. Spitfire can't have it both ways. They can't say that David's won because it was so amazingly different and unexpected and then pick some fairly generic ones for the runner's up, whilst loads of amazing unique entries sit on the sidelines.

Being different to the point of completely changing the entire emotion and genre of the picture either matters above all, or it doesn't.

This is a really interesting debate, but i am certain that the disconnect between the winner and the runner's up is what is causing the upset. The judges cannot logically back up the decision making disconnect between the two.


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## paulthomson

gspot said:


> Mountain perspectives
> 
> OK. This is directly @ Mr Henson. It´s going to be a longer one. In case you want to remain on your "mountain", don´t read beyond this point:
> 
> You - Sir - are missing the point. Maybe on purpose. Maybe accidentally. Your whole argument is that the winning score is "against the rules" and "unexpected" and "off the tracks" and that alle the people speaking up against the competition are "mainstream" and "consent-driven" and part of a "cancel culture".
> 
> This is simply not true and could not in fact be more wrong. The point is that the way the competition was conducted and the winners celebrated was a slap in the face of all participants (and this metaphor is put very mildly).
> 
> The truth is as simple: If you let the Genie out of the bottle you better prepare for people making wishes. It is not the people whining about not having won. It is about a company that is selling the dream of being a little bit like Hans Zimmer in your painfully payed for home studio. It is this company that whines because they played a marketing campaign on this dreams by letting composers of the whole world dream this dream a little more intense and then not being able to handle it in even the slightest professional manner.
> 
> The shortness of the announcement video ... the "zero effort" setup ... your co-founder visibly feeling like a class member having forgotten to do the homework ... the "respect" for the runner ups by playing back roughly a few out of context seconds and then just saying their name ... Your co-founder saying goodbye while the winner video was not even played back. That - Sir - speaks volumes. Is says: We were overwhelmed by the echo and the task at hand. We decided to not invest time, thoughts, love or care to adapt to the success of this competition. We don`t take you - our clients and wanna be clients serious!
> 
> You now may say "that is a harsh judgement". You cannot prove that. Or can I? As the BBC library came out Spitfire created little "behind the curtain" teaser videos. Snippets of you coming off your mountain talking during travel about big things to come. That was love ... and care ... and thoughts ... and time ... FOR YOUR OWN STUFF THAT YOU DID TAKE SERIOUS. The announcement video? I`ve gotten birthday videos from distant associates that took more effort to create.
> 
> I`d like to let you dream a little bit. Imagine having set a few teaser videos within the last weeks. Like going through the room where spitfire people were sighting and shortlisting. Showing a little of their work. What they think about the people creating all this. Whether they still are able to listen to Taiko drums. Then ... imagine having a 90 minutes video with your co-founder introducing the process, how hard it was to choose and then switching to at least two members of the Jury. Having a little chat about what they experienced. Giving a little bit of visibility to some entries. How about then announcing a little special price for the 10 most unexpected or special entries. Could have been something small and inexpensive. Your clients and prospects are not in this for the money - as you should remember. Then having all runner up videos and the winner played in full length - interrupted by some Jury commentary to take out the uniformity of the pictures. If all this would have been tried, don`t you think that after a night of content and happy sleep you would be sitting on your mountain talking about much more beautiful things?
> 
> Instead you`re weaseling your way out. Well ... you try to. We all should grow up and stop whining. That`s the way the media industry works. The winner delivered a "Sex Pistols - never mind the bollocks" soundtrack and everybody thinking otherwise is "mainstream". You even have the guts to direct the "break rules" attitude you advise against your own Spitfire Audio competition rules that clearly stated within the Q&As that participants must refrain from known themes and that all delivered material needs to be original (Look it up!). You even top this by spitting out obvious lies like "the like/dislike display is switched of by youtube automatically (youtube`s very own "rewind 2018" ...has 17 Million dislikes ... they are clearly visible!). We - Spitfire Audio - don`t censor. That - Sir - is no longer weaseling. That is - for a lack of a better world - "Trumping".
> 
> I would assume that the larger part of your real clients are rather dreaming of a career than having one (Pro`s usually don`t have the time for competitions). They - SIR - are the people earning and spending the money your company lives of. They - Sir - now have been taught a lecture to stop dreaming. And I guess that you will see this within your balance sheet.
> 
> I am constantly harassed by people telling me that attention is the currency of our time. If that is so I respectfully withdraw everything in my spitfire audio account. And - as you seemingly are not willing to come down the mountain and own and repair this I`ll do the same with you. If you interpret this as "cancel culture" then please by any means feel free to do so. But don`t continue to use "whining" as description of what others do. It`s a little to self-referencing.
> 
> yours,
> Gernot




Gspot: joined today 12:18am


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## paulthomson

DexiMas said:


> You're reaching really hard. It does not work with the scene in any way. It's not "telling the story the visuals don't tell", it's completely disconnected. It's supposed to compliment the visuals that we see. I'm sure a big reason people are being so accepting of it here is because Christian Henson posts here. If you want to see the real consensus, go read the YouTube comments. Which are now disabled, of course. Can't have people expressing themselves



DexiMas: joined today 4:04am


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## merty

Pro media-composer who's ego wants to be an independent "real" composer.


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## Michael Antrum

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the winner picked by the Westworld people, and not by the Spitfire people who just did the initial filtering ?

l honestly think people are just embarrassing themselves now.


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## synthesizerwriter

paulthomson said:


> Gspot: joined today 12:18am



Lurkers can follow a forum for years before they join in order to comment...


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## kojoro

You have two basic options here:

1. Continue to rage and whine ad infinitum because Spitfire didn't judge their own competition the way you think they should've.
2. Learn what you can from this and move on.

Which do you think is more productive?


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## paulthomson

I guess the old adage “no good deed goes unpunished” .. but also, I tend to take less notice of critique from people who hurl it anonymously from hastily created accounts.

still - I had fun!!


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## Eptesicus

jaketanner said:


> I think in light of the upset, there should be some explanation about the choice. Creativity was just one criteria which was met for sure...just don't think the other criteria were at all.



Indeed. For example someone just posted this in another thread:



If some rule breaking/bending was allowed and they wanted something comedic and entertaining that one ^ is surely a million times more hilarious/different/bold .


----------



## merty

kojoro said:


> You have two basic options here:
> 
> 1. Continue to rage and whine ad infinitum because Spitfire didn't judge their own competition the way you think they should've.
> 2. Learn what you can from this and move on.
> 
> Which do you think is more productive?



Or give the winner a "creativity award" (without skimping on the prizes) and select a winner that composed in context.

Then everybody will be happy.


----------



## Eptesicus

kojoro said:


> You have two basic options here:
> 
> 1. Continue to rage and whine ad infinitum because Spitfire didn't judge their own competition the way you think they should've.
> 2. Learn what you can from this and move on.
> 
> Which do you think is more productive?



The amount of people "raging and whining" in this thread is fairly small. Some of us our just debating it and trying to get to the bottom of the rather illogical judging decisions.

A lot of us aren't sure what to "learn" from this. The winner won because it was so "different" and really paid service to the genre change, yet the one of the runner's up was the da vinci code with a few different notes here and there.

Quite honestly, many are a little perplexed.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Serious, non antagonistic question.

Can anyone think of any examples where a professional film score (not a soundtrack _song_) successfully subverted the expectations of what was shown on screen to the extent that Christian perpetuates is standard practice in the film industry?

I for the life of me cannot. My first thought was maybe Thomas Newman’s score to American Beauty where there was an abundance of ‘ethnic’ instruments used in a score for a film about suburban America, but even then the score still worked in a conventional sense. It was the just the instrumentation that provided the contrast.


----------



## poetd

paulthomson said:


> I guess the old adage “no good deed goes unpunished” .. but also, I tend to take less notice of critique from people who hurl it anonymously from hastily created accounts.
> 
> still - I had fun!!



As did many others.

This is just the internet doing what it has been taught to do best lately.
I remember as soon as the Comp was announced there were knves out - people ready to be offended at the very first opportunity.

Just how things are. Don't eat yourselves up over it.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Eptesicus said:


> The amount of people "raging and whining" in this thread is fairly small. Some of us our just debating it and trying to get to the bottom of the rather illogical judging decisions.



Yep, tell the director that he’s a stupid idiot with no taste - that’ll work.....I’m sure he’ll apologise and come round to your way of thinking......


----------



## Cathbad

paulthomson said:


> DexiMas: joined today 4:04am



Sign up time has no bearing on whether what he says has merit or not. 

Why not address what he wrote, instead of making an ad hominem attack? There's some confusion about the judging process that you could perhaps shed light on.


----------



## pawelmorytko

paulthomson said:


> I guess the old adage “no good deed goes unpunished” .. but also, I tend to take less notice of critique from people who hurl it anonymously from hastily created accounts.
> 
> still - I had fun!!


It's a shame because I know you only had good intentions in mind when making this competition, something that should have brought the community together, but has unfortunately divided it completely.


----------



## Mat

paulthomson said:


> I guess the old adage “no good deed goes unpunished” .. but also, I tend to take less notice of critique from people who hurl it anonymously from hastily created accounts.
> 
> still - I had fun!!



Something I've learned wholeheartedly from working in a community-interacting business: Outcrying community is useful for a sanity-check, but can only really be considered as a vocal minority. Unless the goals of your company are to cater only to a specific community, taking too much stock in the wishes of an opinionated online community will hamper your ability to create compelling content or push the industry forward.

That's a pretentious way of saying - Good on ya, @paulthomson. The competition was admirably run, and the results are both fantastic and inspiring.


----------



## chris massa

paulthomson said:


> I guess the old adage “no good deed goes unpunished” .. but also, I tend to take less notice of critique from people who hurl it anonymously from hastily created accounts.
> 
> still - I had fun!!



Hi Paul,

We had this conversation on the NAMM 2020 flr. over aperture strings. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. It does make me sad.


----------



## poetd

pawelmorytko said:


> It's a shame because I know you only had good intentions in mind when making this competition, something that should have brought the community together, but has unfortunately divided it completely.



No, it didn't.

That's the problem with the internet, a minority with enough volume can seem like a population.
It really isn't.


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## paulthomson

No Cathbad - there isn’t - it shouldn’t be after I’ve explained here a number of times. Rounds of judging by team at SF to narrow the field a few times, then the judges picked their winner and runners up.

they loved the winner - as did I.

that’s really all there is to it. He didn’t break the rules - modifying the clip would mean something like changing the edit.

I actually instructed entrants to do their own mix.

anyway - I can see this is pointless as it’s the same group of people commenting repeatedly, so this is my last word on it.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Eptesicus said:


> Someone compared this to the bleeding fingers competition



That was me. And, yes, this thread went in the _exact _same direction as Bleeding Fingers... people accused a winner of nepotism and cronyism, which he was forced to deny publicly... and then the organizer had to come on and set things straight.

"No good deed..." (what Hans said a few years back)

Just saw this...



paulthomson said:


> I guess the old adage “no good deed goes unpunished” ..


----------



## rt09

Just my $0.02 as a outsider: I didn't enter, I don't even work in audio. I'm just a film music lover and big Westworld fan who followed this competition with some interest. I don't doubt that makes my opinion worthless on here and that's ok because it is . Much of what I was going to say has probably already been said more eloquently by others before me, so will try to keep it short.

To me, the powerful reaction this has invoked appears to have been caused by an avoidable miscommunication, through the setting of unreasonable expectations by Spitfire in the very beginning. Btw fair play to Spitfire for offering this unique opportunity to everyone, this competition been just great to watch unfold from the sidelines. I also really enjoyed the winning entry, congratulations to David and to the runners up on their success.

Anyway back to my point!!

It appears to me that Spitfire set standards which it seems now that they / the judges didn't especially care if participants actually upheld. I have no doubt that the response they received was also far more overwhelming they ever expected and that contributed to some degree. In effect, Spitfire allowed the conditions for an unlevel playing field to be created: skirting the rules was the true first unwritten and unspoken rule of this competition.

At the very end, after they have unwittingly engineered this outcome, the competition runners absolve themselves of even the smallest share of responsibility. They proceed to rub salt in the wound by patronizing unhappy entrants, advising them to differentiate themselves and to essentially "grow up" and find their voice if they ever want to be successful. I don't think this advice is intended to be hurtful at all, it's coming from a place of wisdom derived from their own trials and tribulations that led them to success. But there does seem to a complete lack of self awareness here about their own role in this situation and an innate preference to categorize at least a very large chunk of the 11,000 entrants as childish sour grapes and mob mentality. Does Spitfire not think that they could have done anything differently to create a more positive outcome for all involved? Is there not a better way to handle this situation even after the fact?

I don't claim to have the answers. Washing their hands of it and forgetting this ever happened seems to be what they are intent on doing so far. That probably works but that would be disappointing in my opinion. I would love to see more competitions in the future and more such opportunities for creatives where entrants are not discouraged by incidents such as this and the uninclusive atmosphere that they generate.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Cathbad said:


> Sign up time has no bearing on whether what he says has merit or not.
> 
> Why not address what he wrote, instead of making an ad hominem attack? There's some confusion about the judging process that you could perhaps shed light on.


Exactly. At this point what’s done is done. They’re not going to go back and change the winners (nor should they). But when the majority of your entrants (and judging by the likes/dislikes before the meter was disabled, it IS the majority) are confused about the judging, I think there’s some merit there. He’s not obliged to address it, I guess. But you can’t just start try to de-legitimize their opinions by noting how long they’ve been on the site.


----------



## Eptesicus

paulthomson said:


> No Cathbad - there isn’t - it shouldn’t be after I’ve explained here a number of times. Rounds of judging by team at SF to narrow the field a few times, then the judges picked their winner and runners up.
> 
> they loved the winner - as did I.
> 
> that’s really all there is to it. He didn’t break the rules - modifying the clip would mean something like changing the edit.
> 
> I actually instructed entrants to do their own mix.
> 
> anyway - I can see this is pointless as it’s the same group of people commenting repeatedly, so this is my last word on it.



Would you address my post below as i am certain that this is where the problem lies (if you care to get the bottom of why you had such a bad reaction to this)



Eptesicus said:


> The trouble with their justification for the winner, is that it undermines the justification for the runner's up.
> 
> That is what makes the results so utterly confusing and why the backlash has been so great (in my opinion)
> 
> If they had picked 6 completely left field approaches that paid over the top service to the genre change then i think the winning entry may have been easier to identify with for people.
> 
> Instead, the winner was completely "out there" and the 5 runners up are all fairly tame in comparison. Only one of the 5 actually properly changes genre at the genre change. What makes the "daring to be different!!" mantra even more jarring is that one of the runner up entries is a complete and utter generic rip off of Zimmer's Da Vinci Code/remote control sound that makes no attempt at doing anything with the genre change.
> 
> If to win, you had to do something outlandish and different, then why weren't the runners up all the same? There were easily at least 6 genre change ideas that were very well done that i had listened to, many of which still managed to keep things within the realms of plausibility (in terms of being used for the show) as well.



You have created a massive disconnect between the reasoning for the winner and the selection of the runner's up.

I dont think as many people would have had any problem with your judging criteria for the winner IF all the runner's up all followed the genre change and offered something unique and very different as well.

This would help entrants who take part in any future competitions you run as well.


----------



## chris massa

pawelmorytko said:


> The most disappointing part of this competition is being reminded, or for some people realising how toxic and negative this community can be. Tearing and pulling each other down, instead of standing strong together, and celebrating the competition in good spirits.
> 
> Oh how proud I am to be a part of such an awful, opinionated, entitled, negative, and demanding community.



Oh wait, you mean JJ's not going to ring me for season 4?


----------



## Mat

One point I haven't seen people making (maybe besides @christianhenson): When judging any competition, pitch, or job application, the number one thing in mind is often "Is this someone I'd love to work with?"

Resumes don't have to be perfect. The music doesn't need to be flawless. What's most important is conveying your character and creativity. This submission didn't win because it was the "most original". The submission won because the judges listened to it and said "Hot damn, this person would be a blast to work with, and my work will be better by including him in the process".

He successfully conveyed that through his music, which is incredible and something to take lessons from.


----------



## Michael Antrum

DexiMas said:


> Spitfire are the ones who put the winner on the shortlist. It never should have even gone that far



In your opinion. There are many senior members here who also rated this entry very much. My personal favourite was the Silvestri homage, which I thought was very well done.

I really felt for the winner and his entry, both have been viciously abused both here and in YouTube - he does not deserve that - he should be celebrating and worrying about the price of SSD storage - instead he’s googling the federal witness protection program. 

You just going to guarantee that this kind completion is never repeated and that would be a great shame.

If you never realised that this competition was a bit of good fun, and not a job opportunity, then you must be deluded.


----------



## Loïc D

@paulthomson I’m sorry to see you justify yourself here.

There’s no discussion : the jury made a choice. Period.

It’s D+1 and some ppl here are still ranting (usually the same ones who rant against Spitfire marketing, OT’s switch to Sine engine, you name it)

It was told in the video from day one : this contest was a non standard issue !

People should have guessed...


----------



## josephspirits

pawelmorytko said:


> Vi Control is the place where it's the least toxic out of the bunch, sure but I've seen a lot of negative things said on Youtube (worst offender), but places like Twitter, Facebook, and Discord too. Things that cannot be good for one's mental health. David's or the folk at Spitfire Audio.
> 
> Breaking the rules is of course wrong, and that needs to be in check though.



Yeah I really hope David can avoid so many of the negativity around the Internet right now because he really doesn’t deserve it directed to him or his work. Tension on the Internet is high everywhere right now, for so many reasons. I hope he can separate from the noise and just enjoy his win and new samples.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Michael Antrum said:


> I really felt for the winner and his entry, both have been viciously abused both here and in YouTube...


Has he though? I personally haven’t seen it here. Most of the anger has been directed at Spitfire.

And I don't read Youtube comments other than replies to my own so. I wouldn’t know.

I think we can all agree that that that would be totally unacceptable.


----------



## DexiMas

Michael Antrum said:


> and not a job opportunity


I never thought it was and never treated it as such. I fully expected to lose, but I didn't expect to be insulted


----------



## poetd

Michael Antrum said:


> - he should be celebrating and worrying about the price of SSD storage -





More than happy to help store some here for a while if he's struggling!


----------



## Michael Stibor

DexiMas said:


> I never thought it was and never treated it as such. I fully expected to lose, but I didn't expect to be insulted


Lol. I was ineligible from the start so I definitely was not expecting to win. But that’s a great way of putting it.


----------



## dman007

"That's not standard issue."


----------



## Eptesicus

Michael Stibor said:


> Has he though? I personally haven’t seen it here. Most of the anger has been directed at Spitfire.
> 
> And I don't read Youtube comments other than replies to my own so. I wouldn’t know.
> 
> I think we can all agree that that that would be totally unacceptable.



Yeh, i haven't seen him being attacked on here? As you say, that is really unacceptable. David wrote a great piece of music and the judges chose him as the winner. It's a real shame he is getting unwarranted and rude comments on his youtube channel.

That doesnt mean debate over whether we agree with the judges decsions and how they came to that conclusion should be stifled though.


----------



## mussnig

jaketanner said:


> I think in light of the upset, there should be some explanation about the choice. Creativity was just one criteria which was met for sure...just don't think the other criteria were at all.



Isn't it just enough that the jury picked those entries because they simply liked them most or they resonated the most with them (for whatever reason others might not see or understand)?

And even if they had detailed sheets where they gave points for the different criteria (I don't know if they did or not) - once they would release those sheets, there would for sure be people complaining and disagreeing with the scores being given (e.g. 'But entry A was - in my opinion - much more creative than entry C but received less points for that criterion - that's not fair!'). The thing is, that this is a very subjective matter and sometimes things like this even depend on the daily moods of the jury - it's not a multiple choice math test were it would be clear who is 'better'. But then again - if this were a very objective thing, you wouldn't need a jury anyways. Also, some people complain that some of the runners up are not creative or different enough - well, but maybe they were for the jury and that's what matters.

Also, I don't fully understand why people feel 'entitled' to a more detailed reasoning, a better anouncement video, etc. They (Spitfire & HBO) didn't need to do this in the first place and they don't 'owe' us anything. And frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they choose to not do something like this again, given all the complaints, attacks, etc., which is quite sad ...


----------



## josephspirits

kojoro said:


> You have two basic options here:
> 
> 1. Continue to rage and whine ad infinitum because Spitfire didn't judge their own competition the way you think they should've.
> 2. Learn what you can from this and move on.
> 
> Which do you think is more productive?



amen.

I hope next time they do a contest all of the people that don’t see the value in trying for their own growth just sit out.


----------



## Smapti

I'm a relatively new member here (although I lurked for a long time before joining) so feel free to take my opinion with the largest grain of salt you like... but I think two different things are being conflated here. On the one hand, we have subjective taste, and it's clear that a lot of people on VI Control prefer traditional orchestrated scores. That's fine! There's no arguing with taste. On the other hand, though, there is the objective reality of scores that _really do_ exist in the world, and it is a fact that plenty of scores use synthetic/chiptune sounds. (See eg Uncut Gems and It Follows, the latter of which has been very influential.) Now, you may not like these scores, and that is fine of course! But I see a lot of people going further to argue that scores don't usually sound like this and thus a chiptune-style score should not have been picked as the winner -- and that is objectively false. There is plenty of precedent for scores like this; it's just that such music generally doesn't get discussed here (or, when it does, as in the case of Uncut Gems [a score that I like very much], the response is overwhelmingly negative).

In short: VI Control is conservative when it comes to what is considered an "acceptable" score, so be aware that the view here of what constitutes a "normal" score is not the generally accepted view. If you listen to music that includes the many synthesized scores that exist out in the world, this winner is not outside of the norm.


----------



## bengoss

<DELETED BY MEMBER>


----------



## poetd

mussnig said:


> And frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they choose to not do something like this again, given all the complaints, attacks, etc., which is quite sad ...



They and the community are bigger than that.

I'm sorry for those who feel disatisfied with the outcome. Genuinely, I hope they heal.

But if they think they've caused any kind of community schism they are sadly deluded.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Michael Stibor said:


> Has he though? I personally haven’t seen it here. Most of the anger has been directed at Spitfire.
> 
> And I don't read Youtube comments other than replies to my own so. I wouldn’t know.
> 
> I think we can all agree that that that would be totally unacceptable.


I've seen his composition be called a joke, shameful, embarrassing, undeserving the win, a troll entry, people saying they feel sorry for the contestants who "actually" took this seriously. Imagine winning a competition and seeing your fellow composers react to your nice little proud moment that way


----------



## chris massa

Perhaps, if there is a next time, Spitfire should restrict those that work in the field or have an IMDB entry. This way old IT guys like me might win.


----------



## Smapti

bengoss said:


> It is obvious if a video has 2000 dislikes in just couple of hours that something is wrong. People were just stunned.



If your view of art is strongly colored by the number and quality of comments on YouTube... then all I can say is that you and I have extremely different views on how art should be judged.


----------



## poetd

pawelmorytko said:


> Imagine winning a competition and seeing your fellow composers react to your nice little proud moment that way



His fellow composers by the vast majority have stopped by to congratulate him on the piece and his win.

The rest is just standard internet fare these days. :(


----------



## Cathbad

paulthomson said:


> No Cathbad - there isn’t - it shouldn’t be after I’ve explained here a number of times. Rounds of judging by team at SF to narrow the field a few times, then the judges picked their winner and runners up.
> 
> they loved the winner - as did I.
> 
> that’s really all there is to it. He didn’t break the rules - modifying the clip would mean something like changing the edit.
> 
> I actually instructed entrants to do their own mix.
> 
> anyway - I can see this is pointless as it’s the same group of people commenting repeatedly, so this is my last word on it.



Yes.... I understand that the judges chose the winner and that you like it. We all know that already. What would be interesting and useful is a few concrete examples of what you liked, and how the judging criteria manifested themselves in the music. 

There's a civil discussion here and my curiosity is genuine, not an agenda-loaded request. I think it's a simple, reasonable, polite question not intended to upset. But you seem very insulted, so naturally one wonders what could account for such a disproportionately vexed reaction.


----------



## dman007

I might be wrong, but I thought the terms and conditions stated that the clip was not to be altered?


----------



## pawelmorytko

poetd said:


> His fellow composers by the vast majority have stopped by to congratulate him on the piece and his win.
> 
> The rest is just standard internet fare these days. :(


I guess you're right, it's easier to spot all the negative comments on social media rather than the ones saying "congratulations and well done"


----------



## Michael Stibor

dman007 said:


> I might be wrong, but I thought the terms and conditions stated that the clip was not to be altered?


Yeah, but then they changed that rules after the fact to mean, only the video cannot be edited.


----------



## dman007

Michael Stibor said:


> Yeah, but then they changed that rules after the fact to mean, only the video cannot be edited.


Really? I didn't know that.


----------



## easyrider

dman007 said:


> I might be wrong, but I thought the terms and conditions stated that the clip was not to be altered?



I think this is the binary question at the very core of this debate....the winning composition is always subjective....but did it bend the rules? Did the winning entry defy the terms and conditions....

Thats the bottom line here....all the rest of it is just noise....

If this was a a court room question....it would be did the winner break the terms and conditions....

Yes

No

It really is that simple....


----------



## Michael Stibor

dman007 said:


> Really? I didn't know that.


After the fact as in, in Paul’s comment above.


----------



## easyrider

Just to add:

If the terms and conditions were not broken in the winning entry then all this energy you are all generating is wasted...Spitfire or the judges could choose any entry they wanted....

So focus in on the terms and conditions...not the winning composition...

If the terms and conditions were broken then the competition is a farce....not because you don’t think the winning composition is good or fits, or anything else...only if the terms and conditions were not adhered to.

Watch bake off.... Brief : make a chocolate cake without cream of any description ...be creative

The winning cake contains cream ...that’s not how competitions work...


----------



## Mark Evans

Cathbad said:


> Alex mentions Beethoven many times in A Clockwork Orange. Burgess gives us a vivid description of his taste in music. If only all briefs were like this...
> 
> _The trombones crunched redgold under my bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Oh, it was wonder of wonders. And then, a bird of like rarest spun heavenmetal, or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship, gravity all nonsense now, came the violin solo above all the other strings, and those strings were like a cage of silk round my bed. Then flute and oboe bored, like worms of like platinum, into the thick thick toffee gold and silver. I was in such bliss, my brothers._
> 
> Does anyone in Westworld mention Gameboys or 8-Bit music, or Mariokart or computer game music? Other than the Westworld park being a kind of computer game, is there any indication in the material that points towards a chiptune association? Not having seen the 3rd season of the show, perhaps you can enlighten me, instead of just a flat contradiction.



About a dozen pages back, the composer gives a clear and concise explanation of why he did what he did; I doubt any explanation I offer will improve on it, much as in thread where a load of Flat Earthers pop out of the woodwork it is hard to go beyond, no, there is no ice wall.


----------



## thesteelydane

DexiMas said:


> You're reaching really hard. It does not work with the scene in any way. It's not "telling the story the visuals don't tell", it's completely disconnected. It's supposed to compliment the visuals that we see. I'm sure a big reason people are being so accepting of it here is because Christian Henson posts here. If you want to see the real consensus, go read the YouTube comments. Which are now disabled, of course. Can't have people expressing themselves


Not really reaching, this is basic film scoring practice. Tell the subtext. Film music is not “supposed” to compliment the visuals, it’s supposed to help tell the story. Sometimes through juxtaposition, by deliberately NOT complimenting the visuals. It’s art, and the creative space it occupies is limitless. 

The protagonist is on a drug literally called “genres” which makes him experience the world through changing genres. So I maintain that this score is absolutely telling the all important subtext. There’s nothing more to be said about that.

And...It doesn’t matter what the consensus is, the only thing that matters is that the judges liked it. The fact that the judges are also literally the creators of the show should really put this to bed for good. It doesn’t matter what you or I or anyone else think. It doesn’t matter if you think it doesn’t compliment the visuals. The only people who’s opinion matter liked this, and therefore it won. End of story.


----------



## Mike Greene

paulthomson said:


> Gspot: joined today 12:18am





paulthomson said:


> DexiMas: joined today 4:04am





gspot said:


> I joined yesterday after the youtube channel did not let me comment.


This is not what the forum is for. This forum is for members (a community that most of us care a lot about) to discuss their thoughts. Positive or negative. But it is not for people to carry on with their grudges from elsewhere. Specifically, if you say you're here from YouTube, well ... my job is to make sure this forum doesn't start resembling the YouTube comments section. 

Moreover, I'm not fond of people with anonymous profiles coming in, guns a-blazin'. It's easy to be brave when you're anonymous behind a computer screen, so a polite conversation can turn ugly in an instant. With the damage being done to the forum and the real members, while the anonymous newbie slinks off to wherever he came from.

So as I've said many times (including ... yesterday!), people who have little investment in the forum (anonymous newbies having the least investment of all) are on a much shorter leash.

I'm moving Gspot's and DexiMas's posts to the Drama Zone. No doubt that will be a controversial decision for some, and I'll be the first to admit this may be an overreaction. But I'm serious that I don't want this to become YouTube, so I'm erring on the side of being a very picky doorman. Again, real members can post as always, positive or negative, since they have an understanding of what this community is. This is just about protecting the spirit of the forum from outsiders who join specifically to vent.

If you disagree, please post in this new thread, not here. And for the record, no one from Spitfire has contacted me at all. This is entirely a move for what I believe is best for the forum.


----------



## ka00

Honestly, to me the most disappointing phenomenon of this whole thing is that people are being lumped into either one camp or another:

- positive, professional, fun-loving,

or another:

- entitled, jealous, conspiracy theorist, unable to have a career in scoring

People aren’t either angels or demons. You can disagree on a point by point basis and realize you still have common ground.

Not everyone who thinks the music is great but doesn’t quite serve the visuals is automatically jealous or believing that the winner must be chums with JJ Abrams.

Not everyone who congratulates David (congratulations, David!) is a spitfire fanboy or just posturing to appear graceful or likeable.

If someone makes a wrong or misguided or ridiculous (in your opinion) point, debate or debunk those specific points, don’t start dividing the world into one camp or another.


----------



## jaketanner

<DELETED>


----------



## iaink

<DELETED BY MEMBER>


----------



## David Gosnell

Smapti said:


> I'm a relatively new member here (although I lurked for a long time before joining) so feel free to take my opinion with the largest grain of salt you like... but I think two different things are being conflated here. On the one hand, we have subjective taste, and it's clear that a lot of people on VI Control prefer traditional orchestrated scores. That's fine! There's no arguing with taste. On the other hand, though, there is the objective reality of scores that _really do_ exist in the world, and it is a fact that plenty of scores use synthetic/chiptune sounds. (See eg Uncut Gems and It Follows, the latter of which has been very influential.) Now, you may not like these scores, and that is fine of course! But I see a lot of people going further to argue that scores don't usually sound like this and thus a chiptune-style score should not have been picked as the winner -- and that is objectively false. There is plenty of precedent for scores like this; it's just that such music generally doesn't get discussed here (or, when it does, as in the case of Uncut Gems [a score that I like very much], the response is overwhelmingly negative).
> 
> In short: VI Control is conservative when it comes to what is considered an "acceptable" score, so be aware that the view here of what constitutes a "normal" score is not the generally accepted view. If you listen to music that includes the many synthesized scores that exist out in the world, this winner is not outside of the norm.


Hmm, kind of. Genres have tropes, including musical style, plot development, visual look, editing and so-forth. In being creative you can only stray so far from those tropes before you start to lose your audience. I don’t watch Westworld (it’s on my to do list 😂) so I don’t have a feel for that specific audience’s expectations - but different audiences have different expectations of musical trope.

An Anime audience will be a lot more happy with synths than a period drama audience. Drift too far and a small percentage will think it’s cool but most will find the drift distracts and takes them out of the zone that got them into the franchise in the first place. In each genre, you need to write to your audience (or, invent a new genre and create a new audience). Satisfaction via trope is part of what makes some of use like procedural crime while others like romantic comedy.

One thing is for sure, if I’d been entering this competition and treated it like pitching for a gig, I’d have binge watched the programme to get a feel for audience expectations before I wrote a single note 🙂


----------



## Peros

kojoro said:


> You have two basic options here:
> 
> 1. Continue to rage and whine ad infinitum because Spitfire didn't judge their own competition the way you think they should've.
> 2. Learn what you can from this and move on.
> 
> Which do you think is more productive?



To be fair, i think it's more "Spitfire didn't judge their own competition the way THEY SAID THEY WOULD."


----------



## theretheirhereheir

I am sure the followed all the rules, I do NOT think the so called "mario sounds" used are infringing on any rights

So the winner had fun, did something odd, and won


----------



## easyrider

Cathbad said:


> Totally agree. I believe the original rule was "The Westworld clip must not be altered in any way" or words to very similar effect. I see a difference between that and what Paul Thomson said, above: "Modifying the clip would mean something like changing the edit."
> 
> The winning entry has various alterations to the sound of dialogue and audio FX. So it falls foul of the first rule, but not Mr Thomson's interpretation.



So as we drill down...does making alterations to the audio embedded in the download file break the terms and conditions?

Does altering the audio of the download file constitute modifying the original edit...?

If the download file 100% should have been left in tact and the only additions being the source of the person submitting their final file then altering the audio in the original file would surely mean a forfeit in the submission?

Would changing the ADR be allowed ?

If I wanted the characters to have a Yorkshire accent would this be allowed ?

Thats all that matters here...


----------



## G_Erland

A not so small Internet tragedy it would be if this idea that everybody that makes something is hostage to your money becomes prevalent enough to discourage from further resources spent on creating opportunity and shared experience. Thankfully professionalism and drive guard against this happening, i sincerely hope.


----------



## Michael Antrum

easyrider said:


> So as we drill down...does making alterations to the audio embedded in the download file break the terms and conditions?
> 
> Does altering the audio of the download file constitute modifying the original edit...?
> 
> If the download file 100% should have been left in tact and the only additions being the source of the person submitting their final file then altering the audio in the original file would surely mean a forfeit in the submission?
> 
> Would changing the ADR be allowed ?
> 
> If I wanted the characters to have a Yorkshire accent would this be allowed ?
> 
> Thats all that matters here...


----------



## Supremo

Allow me to lower the tension here? I mean really, let's put aside all hard feelings and congratulate David, who did a very good job afterall! 


According to Christian Henson, even Stanley Kubrick would have voted for this entry. That's quite an amusing statement and I immediately imagined what it would sound like if we had yet another scoring competition, this time for a scene from Kubrick's film.


----------



## Jon K

Can we stop demonizing criticism. No one would ever get better if everyone just told you all the time everything you do is perfect. I specifically ask for honest criticism not just insincere kindness. That said its not an excuse to be flat out rude either.


----------



## Jacob Fanto

Supremo said:


> Allow me to lower the tension here? I mean really, let's put aside all hard feelings and congratulate David, who did a very good job afterall!
> 
> 
> According to Christian Henson, even Stanley Kubrick would have vote for this entry. That's quite an amusing statement and I immediately imagined what it would sound like if we had yet another scoring competition, this time for a scene from Kubrick's film.



The FINISH HER has me dying over here


----------



## easyrider

Michael Antrum said:


>



There is nothing to let go...I didn’t enter and don’t care either way....

But if the terms and conditions were indeed broken then Spitfire should clarify 

Its that simple....

Again the thirst for truth is now appropriated as being butt hurt and tbh it’s not on...

So you let it go....and stop brushing the truth under the carpet....either the rules were broken or they were not...

what don’t you get?


----------



## dman007

Sometimes things just make no sense.


----------



## South Thames

> Not really reaching, this is basic film scoring practice. Tell the subtext. Film music is not “supposed” to compliment the visuals, it’s supposed to help tell the story. Sometimes through juxtaposition, by deliberately NOT complimenting the visuals. It’s art, and the creative space it occupies is limitless.
> 
> The protagonist is on a drug literally called “genres” which makes him experience the world through changing genres. So I maintain that this score is absolutely telling the all important subtext. There’s nothing more to be said about that



I don't know about subtext (doesn't strike me as a show with much of that to speak of) but context certainly. One thing little referenced on this thread is the fact the actual soundtrack used Ride Of The Valkyries for this scene, a piece that would inevitably be heard 'in quotes' as it's so well known, rather than being experienced as dramatic underscore.

I remember watching it (having never watched Westworld) and thinking that, given that choice of music, I had no idea what, if any, dramatic weight the scene actually carried -- probably next to none. Its use just gives the scene an epic, trippy, hallucinatory quality, and to that extent there is some commonality in the winner’s approach and the real-world choice of the film makers.

Contrary to the way most chose to score it in spite of this, it clearly wasn't intended by the film makers to be experienced as an all-out, high drama car chase but rather as something strangely unreal.


----------



## Digivolt

> JUDGING: All entries will be judged beginning on or about 4 June 2020, based on the following judging criteria: enhancement of the viewing experience, creative inventiveness, adding emotion, and the ability to add to the storytelling of the clip



It seems that all but creative inventiveness was thrown aside in the judging process

I believe this is what everybody has a problem with, which has absolutely nothing to do with the music itself which was musically fantastic as nobody is trashing the piece (or I hope they wouldn't as it truly is a great piece), they're just asking why it was picked when it adds no emotion to the scene it was scoring, it doesn't enhance the viewing experience nor does it add to the story, it's completely jarring to the scene being played with it.

I'm pretty sure if instead of Westworld the clip used was taken from something like Pixels - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2120120/ or a light hearted scene from Ready Player One - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1677720/ absolutely nobody would be complaining and all would be complimenting the music and how it fits perfectly with the film

Ultimately was this a scoring competition or a creative competition, only Spitfire & the Judges can truly answer but based on what was picked it seems it was about creativity and not actual scoring


----------



## G_Erland

South Thames said:


> I don't know about subtext (doesn't strike me as a show with much of that to speak of) but context certainly. One thing little referenced on this thread is the fact the actual soundtrack used Ride Of The Valkyries for this scene, a piece that would inevitably be heard 'in quotes' as it's so well known, rather than being experienced as dramatic underscore.
> 
> I remember watching it (having never watched Westworld) and thinking that, given that choice of music, I had no idea what, if any, dramatic weight the scene actually carried -- probably next to none. Its use just gives the scene an epic, trippy, hallucinatory quality, and to that extent there is some commonality in the winner’s approach and the real-world choice of the film makers.
> 
> Contrary to the way most chose to score it in spite of this, it clearly wasn't intended by the film makers to be experienced as an all-out, high drama car chase but rather as something strangely unreal.


I believe this is true, well put!


----------



## Eptesicus

Digivolt said:


> It seems that all but creative inventiveness was thrown aside in the judging process
> 
> I believe this is what everybody has a problem with, which has absolutely nothing to do with the music itself which was musically fantastic as nobody is trashing the piece (or I hope they wouldn't as it truly is a great piece), they're just asking why it was picked when it adds no emotion to the scene it was scoring, it doesn't enhance the viewing experience nor does it add to the story, it's completely jarring to the scene being played with it.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if instead of Westworld the clip used was taken from something like Pixels - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2120120/ or a light hearted scene from Ready Player One - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1677720/ absolutely nobody would be complaining and all would be complimenting the music and how it fits perfectly with the film
> 
> Ultimately was this a scoring competition or a creative competition, only Spitfire & the Judges can truly answer but based on what was picked it seems it was about creativity and not actual scoring



You raise a good point about the difference between a "creative" and a "scoring" competition.

The 6 entries picked perhaps highlight that the judges and/or those that filtered out the entries, weren't sure themselves as to what was important and what would make a winning entry. The juxtaposition of what they seemingly deemed important for each of the winners highlights a rather confused judging criteria.


----------



## Jon K

South Thames said:


> I don't know about subtext (doesn't strike me as a show with much of that to speak of) but context certainly. One thing little referenced on this thread is the fact the actual soundtrack used Ride Of The Valkyries for this scene, a piece that would inevitably be heard 'in quotes' as it's so well known, rather than being experienced as dramatic underscore.
> 
> I remember watching it (having never watched Westworld) and thinking that, given that choice of music, I had no idea what, if any, dramatic weight the scene actually carried -- probably next to none. Its use just gives the scene an epic, trippy, hallucinatory quality, and to that extent there is some commonality in the winner’s approach and the real-world choice of the film makers.
> 
> Contrary to the way most chose to score it in spite of this, it clearly wasn't intended by the film makers to be experienced as an all-out, high drama car chase but rather as something strangely unreal.


I knew Valkyries was the original for this which was kinda silly and I wanted to try and do something then completely different. Kind of like turning a major song into melancholy emotional song.


----------



## South Thames

> I knew Valkyries was the original for this which was kinda silly and I wanted to try and do something then completely different. Kind of like turning a major song into melancholy emotional song.



Fair enough, but perhaps it's just a silly scene and got what it deserved.


----------



## Jon K

South Thames said:


> Fair enough, but perhaps it's just a silly scene and got what it deserved.


I guess im just saying personally I find it more interesting to effectively turn into something it wasnt intended to be. Doesn't really matter, the winners was well done.


----------



## Polkasound

I would like to offer a perspective from someone who is in a different place than everyone else in this thread, and no doubt most everyone else in this forum. This is a perspective from someone who has absolutely zero interest in film music:

To me, most music for suspense and action scenes comes off as predictable. As a musician, I can appreciate all that goes into it, but at the end of the day, it's more of the same to me. The first time I heard David Kudell's entry, I found myself smiling from ear to ear. It struck me as a bold breath of fresh air. For a guy like me, that's what makes a film-watching experience more enjoyable.


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Congrats, David! I had intended to do an 8-bit sounding thing when the contest was getting started, and you beat me to the punch, so I went a different direction. Yours came out much better than mine would have anyway, and I'm genuinely happy that you won!

I read through the first 200 or so replies to this forum so forgive me if this got addressed after I gave up trudging through, but I wanted to respond to a couple of themes I'm seeing in the objections.

Regarding David's entry "breaking the rules," the official rules only mention modifying "the clip", but I'm 90% sure that I read or saw somewhere Paul Thomson saying that messing with the audio was fair game as long as the picture remained unmolested. Based on that, I muted out the other F-bomb so that my kids could watch my submission. Does anyone else remember this?

Regarding the argument that this was a scoring contest and no real legit director would choose this, that argument is silly because real directors DID choose this. Your best guesses about the expectations and preferences of real directors are irrelevant, because real directors made their actual choice.


----------



## Dr.Quest

jacobthestupendous said:


> Congrats, David! I had intended to do an 8-bit sounding thing when the contest was getting started, and you beat me to the punch, so I went a different direction. Yours came out much better than mine would have anyway, and I'm genuinely happy that you won!
> 
> I read through the first 200 or so replies to this forum so forgive me if this got addressed after I gave up trudging through, but I wanted to respond to a couple of themes I'm seeing in the objections.
> 
> Regarding David's entry "breaking the rules," the official rules only mention modifying "the clip", but I'm 90% sure that I read or saw somewhere Paul Thomson saying that messing with the audio was fair game as long as the picture remained unmolested. Based on that, I muted out the other F-bomb so that my kids could watch my submission. Does anyone else remember this?
> 
> Regarding the argument that this was a scoring contest and no real legit director would choose this, that argument is silly *because real directors DID choose this. Your best guesses about the expectations and preferences of real directors are irrelevant, because real directors made their actual choice.*


Best post to end on IMO.


----------



## Mark Evans

Digivolt said:


> It seems that all but creative inventiveness was thrown aside in the judging process



This is painful, but look. 4 categories. Let's say the judges assigned 20 points to each. Entry A scores 15 points in each. 4x15 = 60 points. Entry B scores 14 points in 3 of the categories + 19 in 'creative inventiveness' = 61 points. Entry B wins, even if in 3 of the 4 categories it ranked lower than the other.

It's like in tennis. 3 set match, scores of 6-0, 4-6, 4-6. Yes, congratulations, you won more actual games. Sadly, you don't win the match, and that's all there is to it.


----------



## sin(x)

I've had no horse in this race, but watching this all go down from the sidelines makes me sad and uncomfortable all the same.

I've been lucky enough to have experienced the triumphant feeling to have your work stick out for once in a meaningful way a few times. There's little else to compare that feeling to, the afterglow of it propelled me through the middle part of my modest career so far, and I sincerely hope David gets to enjoy every bit of it, and build on it in a lasting way; he seems like a great guy with serious chops and clearly deserves it.

But I've also been around long enough to have experienced every bit and every variety of the paralyzing anxiety, the crippling self-doubt, and the soul-devouring depression it brings to be reminded that you're mostly just a nameless drop in an ocean of relative irrelevance on the other side of things again and again. It takes a toll on your character, and as much as I'd like to play some "I've learned to accept it and use rejection as a growing opportunity" card… it'd be fucking bullshit. Sure, I'd like to think I would never be lashing out in the way some of the more indignant and entitled reactions here and on YouTube have. But if I'm being sincere, I can recognize some part of myself in them. I know the feeling that fuels this kind of frustration and anger. And to be reminded that there's just… so… damn… much of that toxicity going around our industry, maybe inevitably so given how many of us are trying to jam their feet in so few doors (11.000 entries!! WTF?!) – and how it just creates this constant undercurrent of everybody being at each others' throats all the time, and how the media industry has been successfully preying on that, making damn sure it'll never change – brought a feeling of dread that I didn't really expect from what I have every reason to believe was conceived as a fun creative distraction.

Sorry, I guess I'm just in a wistful mood today. I know I should probably end my "hi, I'm an old fart and what used to be fiery passion has settled into resigned acceptance that I'd very much like you to confuse for wisdom" sermon on some attempt at sageness, but for now I'm just bummed out. Maybe next time.


----------



## poetd

sin(x) said:


> "hi, I'm an old fart and what used to be fiery passion has settled into resigned acceptance that I'd very much like you to confuse for wisdom"





wp!


----------



## NYC Composer

“I know I should probably end my "hi, I'm an old fart and what used to be fiery passion has settled into resigned acceptance that I'd very much like you to confuse for wisdom" “

I’m TOTALLY stealing this for future use. At well over 100 years old, I need to recycle the cleverness of others regarding my anachronistic yet opinionated uselessness..


----------



## sin(x)

NYC Composer said:


> I’m TOTALLY stealing this for future use. At well over 100 years old, I need to recycle the cleverness of others regarding my anachronistic yet opinionated uselessness..



Help yourself. At 140+, my serenity and modesty are far too vast for me to hold on to concepts of creative ownership


----------



## dts_marin

Imagine the rage if a single entry won 11.000 Spitfire competitions.


----------



## Eptesicus

Mark Evans said:


> This is painful, but look. 4 categories. Let's say the judges assigned 20 points to each. Entry A scores 15 points in each. 4x15 = 60 points. Entry B scores 14 points in 3 of the categories + 19 in 'creative inventiveness' = 61 points. Entry B wins, even if in 3 of the 4 categories it ranked lower than the other.
> 
> It's like in tennis. 3 set match, scores of 6-0, 4-6, 4-6. Yes, congratulations, you won more actual games. Sadly, you don't win the match, and that's all there is to it.



I think perhaps the issue people are having is the subjectivity of what is deemed "creative inventiveness" in a musical context.

Why was adding some 8 bit sounds over some of the score deemed the most creative idea, especially when the overall idea results( in context with the video) a rather jarring and hugely distracting viewing experience?

Obviously it must have worked for the judges, but it clearly didn't connect for a massive amount of the viewership and if we are going to get into the "realities of the business" as so many people have , then that would be seen as a rather large problem.


----------



## easyrider

Just come back after my 5 mile walk.....

Was this a composing competition or sound design competition?


----------



## poetd

<DELETED>


----------



## reutunes

In summary:

Some composers have opinions. Other composers have other opinions. Both are opinions.


----------



## Lex

paulthomson said:


> personally, I listened to 500 entries in round 1 and 300 in round 2 - me and the team have been working hard on this - diligently and fairly - over the last 3 weeks - as we’ve mentioned a number of times now, every entry was listened to.



Congratulations to all the winners.

Hey Paul, I was wondering how many submissions have you and your team sent to Abrams, Djawadi and rest of the judges?

best,

alex


----------



## ka00

reutunes said:


> In summary:
> 
> Some composers have opinions. Other composers have other opinions. Both are opinions.



THE END.

Cut to full-screen animated Westworld logo.


----------



## YaniDee

We should all just buy lottery tickets and hope for the best..don't get upset if you don't win!


----------



## pawelmorytko

This whole competition makes me think of the experience one might have when sending music off to a production music library.

If another composer sends off their music and the library loves it and accept it into their catalogue, great for them!

If you send your music off, and they didnt like it as much and it didnt fit their catalogue, trust me when I say you won’t even get a reply. They don’t owe you anything, an explanation, any feedback why they didnt pick your music. And most importantly, you dont get to insult the library, you dont get to insult the composer who got their music onto the catalogue, you dont get to demand why their music got on and not yours, you dont get to say that your music fits THEIR catalogue better than the other composer and that theirs doesnt fit. Its THEIR catalogue. You just accept you didnt get in, and move on, back to the drawing board and make some more music.

Ridicule this analogy if you will, I know it’s not the same scenario, but some principles still apply.


----------



## Rctec

sin(x) said:


> I've had no horse in this race, but watching this all go down from the sidelines makes me sad and uncomfortable all the same.
> 
> I've been lucky enough to have experienced the triumphant feeling to have your work stick out for once in a meaningful way a few times. There's little else to compare that feeling to, the afterglow of it propelled me through the middle part of my modest career so far, and I sincerely hope David gets to enjoy every bit of it, and build on it in a lasting way; he seems like a great guy with serious chops and clearly deserves it.
> 
> But I've also been around long enough to have experienced every bit and every variety of the paralyzing anxiety, the crippling self-doubt, and the soul-devouring depression it brings to be reminded that you're mostly just a nameless drop in an ocean of relative irrelevance on the other side of things again and again. It takes a toll on your character, and as much as I'd like to play some "I've learned to accept it and use rejection as a growing opportunity" card… it'd be fucking bullshit. Sure, I'd like to think I would never be lashing out in the way some of the more indignant and entitled reactions here and on YouTube have. But if I'm being sincere, I can recognize some part of myself in them. I know the feeling that fuels this kind of frustration and anger. And to be reminded that there's just… so… damn… much of that toxicity going around our industry, maybe inevitably so given how many of us are trying to jam their feet in so few doors (11.000 entries!! WTF?!) – and how it just creates this constant undercurrent of everybody being at each others' throats all the time, and how the media industry has been successfully preying on that, making damn sure it'll never change – brought a feeling of dread that I didn't really expect from what I have every reason to believe was conceived as a fun creative distraction.
> 
> Sorry, I guess I'm just in a wistful mood today. I know I should probably end my "hi, I'm an old fart and what used to be fiery passion has settled into resigned acceptance that I'd very much like you to confuse for wisdom" sermon on some attempt at sageness, but for now I'm just bummed out. Maybe next time.


Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?

I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.

But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.

so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
hz


----------



## easyrider

pawelmorytko said:


> This whole competition makes me think of the experience one might have when sending music off to a production music library.
> 
> If another composer sends off their music and the library loves it and accept it into their catalogue, great for them!
> 
> If you send your music off, and they didnt like it as much and it didnt fit their catalogue, trust me when I say you won’t even get a reply. They don’t owe you anything, an explanation, any feedback why they didnt pick your music. And most importantly, you dont get to insult the library, you dont get to insult the composer who got their music onto the catalogue, you dont get to demand why their music got on and not yours, you dont get to say that your music fits THEIR catalogue better than the other composer and that theirs doesnt fit. Its THEIR catalogue. You just accept you didnt get in, and move on, back to the drawing board and make some more music.
> 
> Ridicule this analogy if you will, I know it’s not the same scenario, but some principles still apply.



They send you a video sequence, ask you not to edit it or alter it in anyway just add your composition.....

you submit...you get rejected....then you find out the person they accepted also changed the video sequence audio to fit around their own composition....they get the gig...

Just sayin.....


----------



## Mark Evans

Eptesicus said:


> I think perhaps the issue people are having is the subjectivity of what is deemed "creative inventiveness" in a musical context.
> 
> Why was adding some 8 bit sounds over some of the score deemed the most creative idea, especially when the overall idea results( in context with the video) a rather jarring and hugely distracting viewing experience?
> 
> Obviously it must have worked for the judges, but it clearly didn't connect for a massive amount of the viewership and if we are going to get into the "realities of the business" as so many people have , then that would be seen as a rather large problem.



Equally clearly there are large numbers of us who did not find it a jarring or distracting experience.

Also, even were we to watch the entire episode the first time it was broadcast but with David Kudell's piece instead of Wagner's - and it is possible that in the totality of that context it might seem disconcerting - that's still irrelevant, because that was never what the competition was about. 

As for the 'realities of the business' it's just a prize, not a golden ticket.


----------



## Mike Fox

If only I had used N in the track I submitted, I'm 110% sure i would have won this competition!

Just play'n. I didn't submit anything, but congrats to the winner!!! Now go celebrate!


----------



## fish_hoof

I said it before and I’ll say it again. Opinions are like butt holes... we all have one. 

Time to turn the page and keep moving forward all. I have my thoughts, but at the end of the day, the only thing I can control is writing music I enjoy and let the chips fall where they may. People should be proud of what they wrote for this, there was some dang good stuff. So lets all keep practicing cause someone has to replace replace HZ, Williams, Sylvesti, Newman, etc. 

I would love to be one of those guys that takes the torch, which is one of many reasons I keep practicing. If that never happens, I’ve at least enjoyed writing music for my life, impacting others in the projects I do get and keep getting better. Win win.


----------



## Dirtgrain

Congratulations to the winner. I hope this opens up some doors for you.

I liked a lot of the winning entry. The opening is great: soft sounds and then that weaaoorr sound to the orchestral stuff.

Like some others, I did not see how the chiptune fit, especially at the "point and shoot" part and after he fires the missile (there it felt like Loony Tunes or something). My reaction initially was pretty strong against it, thinking how could it win. But I don't watch the show. Maybe this fits how it is sometimes scored? And one can't assume the other entries were better. At least he went radical reflecting the genre change. The Westworld movie from back in the day had robotic cowboys at a theme park, right? Maybe chiptune is a nice nod to that. 

I am concerned about the drastic reactions and them having to shut down their social media chat. I was hoping they would do more such competitions (I didn't do this one--took me too long to figure out how to set up Ableton to play the video).


----------



## CT

_Go away from my YouTube window
Leave at your own chosen speed
I'm not the one you want, JJ
I'm not the one you need

You say you're lookin' for someone
Who's never meek but always bold
Someone to tell your story 
But who’ll also break the mold
Somebody who ain’t gonna make you snore,
But it ain't me, JJ
No, no, no, it ain't me, JJ
It ain't me you're lookin' for, JJ

Go lightly from this tab, JJ
To others you have found
I'm not the one you want, JJ
I will only let you down

You say you're lookin' for someone
Who’s got music right at the start
Someone to change the genre for you
Someone who’s off the chart
Someone who’ll get a smile from you and more
But it ain't me, JJ
No, no, no, it ain't me JJ
It ain't me you're lookin' for, JJ_

(last verse is a little too vindictive to adapt in good fun)

Lighten up, everybody!


----------



## Dewdman42

Congratulations David! Well done! I didn't particularly love the game music myself...but I did love the music leading up to it which I feel respresented the tone and theme of the story better then any of the runners up. They wanted inventiveness and you delivered that in spades... Sometimes ya just gotta be different. I mean if they got 10,999 entries that all sounded like people trying to mimic hanz zimmer, how do you choose?


----------



## rt09

The question at the heart of this for me is very simple:

Was this reaction avoidable *while having the exact same winner* or was this always inevitable?

If one argues the latter, I think one makes a sweeping derisory statement about a huge swathe of participants. To me that is a riskier proposition and I would not feel informed enough to draw that judgement, it requires many more assumptions. I choose Occam's Razor and go with the former.


----------



## Will Wilson

I really enjoyed the track. It really did stand apart. I got bored of listening to submissions, they all started to sound the same but this one really stood out. 

Well done. 

This whole thing has become far to salty though. As Hans said. This isn’t a job. It’s a calling.


----------



## ThomCSounds

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



I like what you said about the fact of doing music day in and day out being a luxury. It reminds me of this great quote by Jose Mujica criticising our modern way of living :

"When I buy something, when you buy something, you are not paying money for it.
You are paying with the hours of life you had to spend earning that money.

The difference is that life is one thing money can’t buy.
Life only gets shorter. And it is pitiful to waste one’s life and freedom that way."


----------



## Zedcars

Digivolt said:


> It seems that all but creative inventiveness was thrown aside in the judging process
> 
> I believe this is what everybody has a problem with, which has absolutely nothing to do with the music itself which was musically fantastic as nobody is trashing the piece (or I hope they wouldn't as it truly is a great piece), they're just asking why it was picked when it...
> 
> adds no emotion to the scene it was scoring,
> 
> ...it doesn't enhance the viewing experience
> 
> ...nor does it add to the story,
> 
> ...it's completely jarring to the scene being played with it.


See now, my opinion is different to yours. For me it did all of those things and I didn’t really find it jarring, just unusual. The emotion, for me, was a mixture of nostalgia for 80s video games (which I lived through), humour (made me smile and laugh), and a sense of playfulness, creativity and intelligence.

My viewing experience was most certainly enhanced which kind of ties into the emotions I felt. Definitely more fun than the tired old music that usually get dialled in with this kind of cue.

It adds to the story because he took a genre changing pill, and so the story was enhanced by the music and it took you somewhere slightly left field.

This idea that an opinion about art is the right one because it is your own, or it is most popular, or it is only valid if it falls within narrow artificially constructed parameters of what is good and bad is bogus. Subjective opinions reign supreme here over and above the objective arguments about what is a good cue and what is a bad cue. And those subjective opinions are the judges alone.

[Edited for spelling mistake]


----------



## Mike Greene

Eptesicus said:


> Obviously it must have worked for the judges, but it clearly didn't connect for a massive amount of the viewership.


So I guess you're more of a People's Choice guy than a Grammys guy? 

Seems to me a whole lot of people liked David's submission. I sure did. I could see going either way on whether the winner should have been this or something more traditional, and lo and behold, that's reflected in the runners up. (The complaint on why the runners up were not also quirky is silly, as if the judges have only one dimension.)



Eptesicus said:


> Why was adding some 8 bit sounds over some of the score deemed the most creative idea ...


This notion that all David did was to add some 8 bit stuff is what bugs me the most with some of the comments I'm reading. Watch that score carefully and you'll see that what he did was waaayyy deeper than just his 8 bit idea. In fact, I'll bet there were other entires that attempted an 8 bit direction, but were dismissed by the judges because they didn't work.

David's score went way beyond "adding some 8 bit sounds." My hat's off to the craft that went into it. Craft on all levels, not just the 8 bit elements. If I had a time machine and go back and submit an entry like David's, knowing the judges would be impressed by it, I would still lose, simply because he did it so damn well. I _still_ keep finding, _"Whoa, I didn't notice that before!"_ moments in there.

One last thought - Although we keep referring to this as "The 8 Bit Score," most any director sees beyond that, and not to jinx anything, but I'll bet something comes of it for David. No director is looking for 8 bit scores, of course (a lot of people take all this way too literally), but they _are_ looking for inventiveness, combined with clear legit compositional skills. This is why Tim Burton hired Danny Elfman. He wasn't looking for Oingo Boingo music, he was looking for the imagination that Elfman has in spades. Burton already has Elfman, of course, and JJ Abrams already has Giacchino, but I'll bet some rising director or TV producer sees this and David's resume goes a lot higher on the stack than mine does.

But again, I don't want to jinx anything ...


----------



## Cathbad

Rctec said:


> I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers.



That's how I'd prefer to see these competitions: a chance to swap favourites and discover new music and musicians. Especially since we can't all go through 11k views.

I liked this version from Mark Petrie, who I'd not heard of but is a successful Kiwi composer mainly of trailer music.


Stuff I like
- very exciting and thrilling
- the synth ticking away in the texture keeps the tension up and adds a sense of speed to the cars
- it's very well paced and synchronised with the picture
- the harmonies support the visuals sympathetically (1:13)
- the brass writing and harmonic language have a grandeur to them that reminds me of Wagner (2:20)
- the sound design elements add a feeling of menace
- I like the way he also scored the W logo at the end


----------



## Beluga

Eptesicus said:


> Indeed. For example someone just posted this in another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> If some rule breaking/bending was allowed and they wanted something comedic and entertaining that one ^ is surely a million times more hilarious/different/bold .




Totally with you here! If the selection is so random and „outside of the box“ why not make this guy the winner. That was outlandish good and funny. Masterpiece! :D


----------



## Giudan

<DELETED>


----------



## Mark Evans

Beluga said:


> Totally with you here! If the selection is so random and „outside of the box“ why not make this guy the winner. That was outlandish good and funny. Masterpiece! :D



Sigh. It may indeed be very funny but the number of subtitles floating around definitely disqualifies it on the 'mucking about with the clip' rule, however you slice it.


----------



## asherpope

Beluga said:


> Marketing experience gone terribly wrong. Rather than attracting thousands of potential customers it pissed them off. Will need some new clever marketing to straighten that out. I’m sure they will figure it out.


I'm guessing a lot of these disgruntled folks don't even use Spitfire products "this isn't EPIC enough!"


----------



## Michael Stibor

Mark Evans said:


> Sigh. It may indeed be very funny but the number of subtitles floating around definitely disqualifies it on the 'mucking about with the clip' rule, however you slice it.


Yeah, but they could’ve fudged a few rules if they wanted to. They’ve done it before.


----------



## Beluga

Mark Evans said:


> Sigh. It may indeed be very funny but the number of subtitles floating around definitely disqualifies it on the 'mucking about with the clip' rule, however you slice it.


Yeah I know but I still watched it 4 times already!  I don’t think anyone should pick on the winner anyway he did his best and won. Good for him! I believe the request about rules and technicalities are legit though and should not be put into the „whining loser category“. It’s not enough to say grow up that’s how the business works. On the other hand IF there is nepotism involved this IS how the business works and this would indeed be a lesson for all participants and one every composer will eventually make.


----------



## Cathbad

Does anyone know of a Bollywood Bhangra version? 

I'd like to see that.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Artistic hooliganism at its best with little sign of humility.

As someone whose considerable part of youth was wasted in one of the worst 3rd world countries to be living right now, I know how easy it is for competition and rivalry to turn into a toxic free for all elimination, when people set themselves on survival mode that is. Do not ever underestimate the mental struggle of one when singled out, like what many did to David.

I was there when they presented the winners. I saw what happened in the live chat when they announced the top contenders. Here is just one comment someone posted on David’s video:

_“Too bad i didnt win. I submitted 4 min of silence! Definitely more unique than this !”_

Then the composer hooligans repeatedly claimed that many submissions were not listened to, whilst Paul and others repeatedly said, before and after, that every submission is listened to in its entirety. Nevertheless the claims persisted. That’s called accusing someone of lying, and it’s very easy doing so in this modern age. Some are truly out of their minds.

And what good is brought forth when some flock to his IMDB profile spreading rumors about the whole process being rigged.

But the online composer hooligans kept going. And I understand there are some who are trying to discuss the results in a civil manner, and regardless of who’s right or wrong, or if the winners deserved it or not, I wonder, why all of this trouble? Do you expect some form of justice in a contest like this? If Spitfire announces another winner right now, how would that make you feel and what would you make of that feeling of yours? Is it healthy?

And how hard is it for some to sum up their view points in a post or two rather than going on for eternity… There’s no reason to ruin your own argument by attacking it, simply defend it poorly.

If anything, which is something I just did, is to ask the team behind the contest for feedback if they have written notes. Try to perfect your craft to the point where all admire it, otherwise it is futile to throw away precious time convincing everyone that somehow you are right. Co-existence of ideas could be a valid idea.

The world doesn’t operate the way you want it to, and there is no other option but to keep striving with humility, and I know many know this but yet they do not practice it. From someone who has recently shifted away from science and engineering into this domain of media composition, I must say, the culture isn’t very pleasant when you hear people express themselves immaturely. For those aware of some baroque history, work on your craft as if you were to end up like Bach.

Cheers


----------



## asherpope

Cathbad said:


> I didn't enter so I don't have a dog in the fight, but here's a suggestion for Spitfire: take a leaf out of OT's book and offer a small prize to all participants, and a store voucher.
> 
> Everyone comes away with more than they brought. Entrants get the new Triple Felt GamechangingBoy library with 109 articulations and 27 mic positions (terrible legato on the D-Pad, though). Spitfire gets some goodwill and new customers


Yeah I guess LABS and Christian's Pianobook aren't enough.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Rasoul Morteza said:


> Artistic hooliganism at its best with little sign of humility.
> 
> As someone whose considerable part of youth was wasted in one of the worst 3rd world countries to be living right now, I know how easy it is for competition and rivalry to turn into a toxic free for all elimination, when people set themselves on survival mode that is. Do not ever underestimate the mental struggle of one when singled out, like what many did to David.
> 
> I was there when they presented the winners. I saw what happened in the live chat when they announced the top contenders. Here is just one comment someone posted on David’s video:
> 
> _“Too bad i didnt win. I submitted 4 min of silence! Definitely more unique than this !”_
> 
> Then the composer hooligans repeatedly claimed that many submissions were not listened to, whilst Paul and others repeatedly said, before and after, that every submission is listened to in its entirety. Nevertheless the claims persisted. That’s called accusing someone of lying, and it’s very easy doing so in this modern age. Some are truly out of their minds.
> 
> And what good is brought forth when some flock to his IMDB profile spreading rumors about the whole process being rigged.
> 
> But the online composer hooligans kept going. And I understand there are some who are trying to discuss the results in a civil manner, and regardless of who’s right or wrong, or if the winners deserved it or not, I wonder, why all of this trouble? Do you expect some form of justice in a contest like this? If Spitfire announces another winner right now, how would that make you feel and what would you make of that feeling of yours? Is it healthy?
> 
> And how hard is it for some to sum up their view points in a post or two rather than going on for eternity… There’s no reason to ruin your own argument by attacking it, simply defend it poorly.
> 
> If anything, which is something I just did, is to ask the team behind the contest for feedback if they have written notes. Try to perfect your craft to the point where all admire it, otherwise it is futile to throw away precious time convincing everyone that somehow you are right. Co-existence of ideas could be a valid idea.
> 
> The world doesn’t operate the way you want it to, and there is no other option but to keep striving with humility, and I know many know this but yet they do not practice it. From someone who has recently shifted away from science and engineering into this domain of media composition, I must say, the culture isn’t very pleasant when you hear people express themselves immaturely. For those aware of some baroque history, work on your craft as if you were to end up like Bach.
> 
> Cheers


But where did this happen? On YouTube? I feel that the conversation here has been very respectful so I think it’s important to make a distinction from the usual garbage that is the YouTube comments section, and a healthy discussion among adults here.

And nothing was said that was any worse than Christian’s own remarks here. And even then, who’s offended? At this point, the dust is settling, everyone has gone home, and there’s just us stragglers here talking about this. And why not? It IS after all, a discussion forum. It makes sense for us to discuss the contest results. So long as it’s kept in a respectful manner, go for it.


----------



## Waywyn

just leaving this here


----------



## Levon

I have to admit that I had a big smile on my face when Paul announced the winner. One of our own winning out of 11,000 folk. Something that should be celebrated! Personally I thought it fitted the visuals perfectly. It was a highly entertaining piece of music that enhanced the scene for me. Congratulations again David! Enjoy your success!


----------



## charlieclouser

dts_marin said:


> Imagine the rage if a single entry won 11.000 Spitfire competitions.



Hahahaha that's what Spitfire should do - run a similar contest every week, and every week announce that David's piece has won.


----------



## J-M

Okay, we've already had some big names comment on this thread and it's just going in circles. What's done is done. Can we move on...please?


----------



## CT

No, not until more people laugh at my Dylan parody.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Michael Stibor said:


> But where did this happen? On YouTube? I feel that the conversation here has been very respectful so I think it’s important to make a distinction from the usual garbage that is the YouTube comments section, and a healthy discussion among adults here.


The usual garbage posted by many if not hundreds of the "participants" themselves who somehow dreamed they're going to win and break into the industry, become best buddies with JJ and be praised as musical geniuses because they discovered the timpani and know how to spell Ostinato, musical greatness at its peak.

I'll have to leave it here though, good luck and cheers.


----------



## Hired Goon

Congratulations, but I didn't like it one bit. I would have been rather annoyed and distracted had I paid money to watch this movie in a theatre. 

I don't like having my expectations subverted and I truly feel sorry for all of the other artists who participated in this nonsense.


----------



## Bruhelius

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



I used to have a Croatian friend who still lives on a small island to this day... his mantra was one word. I keep coming back to it after decades. It's this: "ENJOY". 
Sounds like something out of an advert? Maybe. But this is the philosophy of a winner on this planet. Someone who can enjoy anything. If you couldn't enjoy the announcement of the winners, and enjoy what that is bringing to your life, then probably you are living your life for the wrong reasons. Don't just produce music. Enjoy music and the process it entails with your peers. If you perceive a moment to be "bad" you can always find a way to enjoy what new things this bad moment can bring to your life...there are over 11000 of us. Now enjoy that. Enjoy the few years you have left to live. Enjoy your make-believe composer hut on a lake. Enjoy bringing music to the foot of someone's death bed. Enjoy how it connects people. Enjoy that you were not chosen as a so-called winner this time. Enjoy what good things may come to David Kudell. And enjoy your personal growth as a human with limited time left.


----------



## Eptesicus

Mike Greene said:


> This notion that all David did was to add some 8 bit stuff is what bugs me the most with some of the comments I'm reading. Watch that score carefully and you'll see that what he did was waaayyy deeper than just his 8 bit idea. In fact, I'll bet there were other entires that attempted an 8 bit direction, but were dismissed by the judges because they didn't work.
> 
> David's score went way beyond "adding some 8 bit sounds." My hat's off to the craft that went into it. Craft on all levels, not just the 8 bit elements. If I had a time machine and go back and submit an entry like David's, knowing the judges would be impressed by it, I would still lose, simply because he did it so damn well. I _still_ keep finding, _"Whoa, I didn't notice that before!"_ moments in there.



I simply disagree with this. These points you have made could be ascribed to countless other submissions. But that's fine, we all have our opinions.



Mike Greene said:


> So I guess you're more of a People's Choice guy than a Grammys guy?



I think the massive unprecedented backlash is a sign that the wining entry was a divisive choice, and this was further compounded by the runner's up choices.



Mike Greene said:


> Seems to me a whole lot of people liked David's submission. I sure did. I could see going either way on whether the winner should have been this or something more traditional, and lo and behold, that's reflected in the runners up. (The complaint on why the runners up were not also quirky is silly, as if the judges have only one dimension.)



You liked it, that's great. I liked it too. The argument that picking all pieces that pay service to the genre change would have made the judges one dimensional doesn't pass the smell test. Either being different and writing something to track the genre change is what they were looking for or it wasn't. The more generic runner up selections were not remarkable in comparison to countless other similar entries so i honestly have no idea how or why they were picked and neither does anyone else. There were, objectively, loads of entries that serviced the genre change AND were just as good as the more generic runner's up in aspects like conveying emotion, scoring to the picture, production etc. By the judges own scoring criteria, that is who the runner's up should be.

Are you seriously telling me that you didn't see any other genre change/creative ideas that were as good as the runner's up in other aspects?

This brings me back to the point i made earlier as to why this is the crux of the issue Spitfire have and why they have received such a backlash. People keep saying "learn from it and move on". But what is there to learn when the judging decision and metrics have been so unclear? Why are people so dismissive of criticism?

This quite obviously was not just a group of sore losers making a nuisance of themselves. I think it would be far more intelligent to debate and discuss (and this goes for Spitfire staff as well) WHY the result got the reaction that it did.


----------



## David Kudell

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



@Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.

Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?

My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.

As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.

David


----------



## Eptesicus

Michael Stibor said:


> But where did this happen? On YouTube? I feel that the conversation here has been very respectful so I think it’s important to make a distinction from the usual garbage that is the YouTube comments section, and a healthy discussion among adults here.
> 
> And nothing was said that was any worse than Christian’s own remarks here. And even then, who’s offended? At this point, the dust is settling, everyone has gone home, and there’s just us stragglers here talking about this. And why not? It IS after all, a discussion forum. It makes sense for us to discuss the contest results. So long as it’s kept in a respectful manner, go for it.



I have found that discussion and any attempt at analysis or critiquing anything often gets shot down unfortunately. I don't understand the people who come in here and comment things like "it's done, move on, get over it" etc. There might be some people who still are genuinely interested in discussing this. If someone doesn't, no one is forcing them to read or contribute.

This place, and the whole world would be a monumentally boring if everyone was just positive about everything all the time, no matter what.

Nice, yes. But ***** boring!


----------



## ka00

Eptesicus said:


> Why are people so dismissive of criticism?



Because David is "one of us", so it feels rude to discuss this in public when we should focus on the positive.

Remember when just the other day in the CSS woodwinds thread, David posted a funny gif of a baseball player striking out, and then you replied with a funny gif of Monk endlessly tweaking the position of salt and pepper shakers? That's what this forum is about: commiserating over legato delays and congratulating each other on massive accomplishments.


----------



## Bruhelius

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class act no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.
> 
> Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?
> 
> My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.
> 
> As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.
> 
> David



Keep it up! Congrats and I hope you can spend more time composing for those you love and I hope it opens some doors for you and your family. You decide your life, be the boss


----------



## Eptesicus

ka00 said:


> Because David is "one of us", so it feels rude to discuss this in public when we should focus on the positive.
> 
> Remember when just the other day in the CSS woodwinds thread, David posted a funny gif of a baseball player striking out, and then you replied with a funny gif of Monk endlessly tweaking the position of salt and pepper shakers? That's what this forum is about: commiserating over legato delays and congratulating each other on massive accomplishments.



I have congratulated him. I did so in my very first post in this thread about my thoughts.

I don't think that means we can't discuss the judging process or work out why there is such a backlash.

I think the rude and stupid comments on his Youtube etc are uncalled for, but i honestly don't see a problem with a grown up discussion about the big backlash and why the judges decision appeared to surprise so many people.

I hope David himself doesn't mind? He knows that not everyone agrees with the judges and any good composer (which he undoubtedly is) should be open to constructive criticism. If we cant discuss this sort of thing on here. Where can we discuss it? Suppression of debate is not a helpful thing. Ever.


----------



## FinGael

Mike Fox said:


> If only I had used N in the track I submitted, I'm 110% sure i would have won this competition!
> 
> Just play'n. I didn't submit anything, but congrats to the winner!!! Now go celebrate!



With N you can only win. Every time.


Bruhelius said:


> I used to have a Croatian friend who still lives on a small island to this day... his mantra was one word. I keep coming back to it after decades. It's this: "ENJOY".
> Sounds like something out of an advert? Maybe. But this is the philosophy of a winner on this planet. Someone who can enjoy anything. If you couldn't enjoy the announcement of the winners, and enjoy what that is bringing to your life, then probably you are living your life for the wrong reasons. Don't just produce music. Enjoy music and the process it entails with your peers. If you perceive a moment to be "bad" you can always find a way to enjoy what new things this bad moment can bring to your life...there are over 11000 of us. Now enjoy that. Enjoy the few years you have left to live. Enjoy your make-believe composer hut on a lake. Enjoy bringing music to the foot of someone's death bed. Enjoy how it connects people. Enjoy that you were not chosen as a so-called winner this time. Enjoy what good things may come to David Kudell. And enjoy your personal growth as a human with limited time left.



My wife has taught me a different way to deal with disappointments; when something unpleasant happens, just stay calm and think that something better is already on the way. The best part is that it seems to work.


----------



## NYC Composer

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz


There goes my aspiration to become the world’s first 66 year old tea boy (sigh.)


----------



## classified_the_x

It would be interesting if the more harsh comments would come accompanied by their own submission to the contest. Just saying.

Spitfire does a contest, 11k compete, 1 emerges winner and 5 runner ups, some gain Youtube exposure and 10500 Tonya Hardings are created in the world. 

Maybe the entitlement comes from being a Spitfire client? "I own Spitfire products and used them, I am a loyal client and deserved to win it". What if it was an Apple contest? Spitfire by no means is a smallish company but no would dare think like that if it was Apple...

Perhaps the outcome of the contest shows that somehow film music got a bit commoditized and saturated? In Covid-19 times I for one can't stand some of the cues I listen on movies, just sound standard and too normal. Maybe the tools we have at our disposal today like one finger orchestras and some sample libraries are cooperating to that?

I was booted to the Drama section so that's me leaving here, just had to post some remarks on the updates.


----------



## Marsen

I think it´s really time to stop it right here. 
Calm down, it´s over! What´s the point?

This wasn´t supposed to be played in theatres.
It was a competition, not a pitch and for sure not a witch hunt.

I was happy, the jury chose something special/outstanding. 

So , a professional discussion is, to end this discussion. No?
Really?

Go On?

Please thank the winners and keep on making great music.


----------



## pawelmorytko

The rest of us don’t need an explanation of how they decided the winner. Paul and Christian already said they won’t share any more details and said their final thoughts on this. Why keep beating a dead horse? There’s really nothing more that’s going to happen, no matter how many times you keep asking for “but why did this one win”.

When the competition was first announced, i remember the whole bloody thread where some people thought it was a scam and questioning Spitfire/HBO’s ulterior motives. Literally sucking the fun out of the competition. And now that the competition has ended, all the fun and good spirits of the competition have again been sucked dry.

This is why we can’t have nice things, and frankly we don’t deserve them.


----------



## NoamL

Bruhelius said:


> I used to have a Croatian friend who still lives on a small island to this day... his mantra was one word. I keep coming back to it after decades. It's this: "ENJOY".
> Sounds like something out of an advert? Maybe. But this is the philosophy of a winner on this planet. Someone who can enjoy anything. If you couldn't enjoy the announcement of the winners, and enjoy what that is bringing to your life, then probably you are living your life for the wrong reasons. Don't just produce music. Enjoy music and the process it entails with your peers. If you perceive a moment to be "bad" you can always find a way to enjoy what new things this bad moment can bring to your life...there are over 11000 of us. Now enjoy that. Enjoy the few years you have left to live. Enjoy your make-believe composer hut on a lake. Enjoy bringing music to the foot of someone's death bed. Enjoy how it connects people. Enjoy that you were not chosen as a so-called winner this time. Enjoy what good things may come to David Kudell. And enjoy your personal growth as a human with limited time left.



 Enjoyed this post!


----------



## alvaromrocha

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class act no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.
> 
> Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?
> 
> My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.
> 
> As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.
> 
> David



Congrats dude!
I'd say welcome to the Jungle but I'm not in it. 

Kind Regards,
AMR


----------



## MauroPantin

This was supposed to be fun. I felt awful reading some of the comments throwing an e-tantrum over the decision. Just a really shitty thing to do to someone in the midst of what should be a great moment for them.


----------



## easyrider

I think this thread should now be closed...

Its not productive.....no point dwelling on the past...

The ship has sailed....

Rules are meant to be broken....

c'est la vie...

Fit as a butchers dog....

etc....


----------



## John R Wilson

Blimey, Well it seems like the Westworld competition stirred up a lot!! What did I miss? Already on page 29!! All I can say is that in my view, Spitfire and the judges of the competition can choose whoever they want as the winner and anyone who submitted a piece probably should not have had any expectations from the competition or any notions of what the winning submission would or should be! Congratulations to @David Kudell for winning.


----------



## Dale Turner

classified_the_x said:


> It would be interesting if the more harsh comments would come accompanied by their own submission to the contest. Just saying.
> 
> Spitfire does a contest, 11k compete, 1 emerges winner and 5 runner ups, some gain Youtube exposure and 10500 Tonya Hardings are created in the world.
> 
> Maybe the entitlement comes from being a Spitfire client? "I own Spitfire products and used them, I am a loyal client and deserved to win it". What if it was an Apple contest? Spitfire by no means is a smallish company but no would dare think like that if it was Apple...
> 
> Perhaps the outcome of the contest shows that somehow film music got a bit commoditized and saturated? In Covid-19 times I for one can't stand some of the cues I listen on movies, just sound standard and too normal. Maybe the tools we have at our disposal today like one finger orchestras and some sample libraries are cooperating to that?
> 
> I was booted to the Drama section so that's me leaving here, just had to post some remarks on the updates.


----------



## Consona




----------



## Cathbad

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class act no matter what people say.



Top class.






Oh no wait a second. That's the wrong man in black.


----------



## José Herring

jononotbono said:


> *Knew


Sorry, my new 8bit Atari I got for my next HBO movie doesn't have grammarly..


----------



## David Kudell

Waywyn said:


> just leaving this here


By the way, anyone who doesn't have Alex's Titan guitar sample library, it's an amazing sounding power chord library. I used it all over my track, so this whole thing might be Alex's fault after all.


----------



## HardyP

Michael Stibor said:


> 4. No one is against David, or his entry. This is not a question “the winning entry sucks, mine should have won”. His music was very fun (as were many others).



Not true at least >400 times: Obviously there are several guys against him, because they proved their bad attitude buy punishing his YT channel. That´s exactly what the term "hater" is all about: Using someone/something as a projection/valve for a personal frustration.


----------



## Noeticus

Dear David Kudell,

Congratulations on your "Westworld" music win! Your music displayed profound skill, and above all, clever creativity. Thank you for your wonderful music!!!

Just remember that Einstein did not receive a Nobel Prize for his "Special" and "General" theories of Relativity, both of which are the greatest achievement in human thought in the history of all mankind.

I say to you Mister Kudell, that you are great!!!


----------



## José Herring

Congrats David and thx for reminding us that music is suppose to be fun.


----------



## easyrider

josejherring said:


> Congrats David and thx for reminding us that music is suppose to be fun.



Music can also be pain and suffering....


----------



## José Herring

easyrider said:


> Music can also be pain and suffering....


Regarding art, when did pain and sufferring not become fun?


----------



## charlieclouser

People out there on teh interwebz are acting like this was a contest to find a cure for cancer, and the winning vaccine not only doesn't cure cancer, but also causes your left leg to fall off and is made from ground-up orphan brains.

Even if someone was the composer on a show like Westworld, totally knew the context that the genre change thing needed to fit into, and received a detailed brief from the show runners, that brief would probably be.... brief. Something like, "When he goes into the genre shift, we need to call that out with the score somehow, it needs to swerve off the road a little bit. See what you can come up with." Getting even that paltry amount of specificity would be like winning the spotting session lottery, tbh. 

I usually get about this much instruction: "Make it scary." Actually, that's about two syllables more than I usually got on a show I scored for 110 episodes - the show runner like to only give me three-syllable instructions: "Make it dark." "Big fun time." "Make us cry." "He's bad ass." etc. In this case, he'd have said, "Genre shift." "He trips out." "Brain fart time." "Take chances" or just "Go wild, man."

Plus, you know the producers are already telling the music supervisor to find possible needle-drop candidates, tracks ranging from Arvo Part to ZZ Top, to have in their pocket just in case - and you're also going to do a more "normal" cue as an ALT so you won't have to scramble if your weird-o idea doesn't get smiles all around.

So you're sitting there, puzzling over how to "swerve off the road" with only a half-day to do it, so you mess around with some chip-tune sounds and think to yourself, "I wonder if..." but you don't want to spend too much time on it and leave yourself not enough time to do an alt version, let alone the other thirty cues in that episode. So you spend the evening throwing together a version based on your off-the-wall, spur-of-the-moment idea, and you stick it in the pile. I see one of four likely outcomes:

- "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's pretty far out. But we all loved it. Risky but we're using it."

- "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's too far out. We're going with the alt which sounds like the chase cue from episode four."

- "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's just a little bit too far out. Is there a way to take some of the crazy elements from it and integrate them into the alt? Like just a few of those sounds over top of the chase cue from episode four?"

- "Oh, didn't anybody tell you? We decided to use the Arvo Part track layered with the ZZ Top song."

In any of those cases, the minimum acceptable response is: "Huh.... Oh well, that works."

And even that smacks of grumpiness and butt-hurt-ery. An even more acceptable response would be, "Cool. Any thoughts on the cue for the end of reel three?"

I am surprised that this type of response is so rare in the flood of comments, or why so many are willing to go on record with petty protestations, lamentations, and accusations of nepotism, rule-bending, or incompetent judging. After all, it's their show and their contest, they can pick whatever music they want for it, for whatever reason, and they owe no composer or anybody else any explanation or justification - just like it would be in a real-world professional situation.

I knew there would be a zillion people whose dream is to work in a real-world professional situation, but I'm surprised that there are a zillion people whose attitudes are so far away from what would actually *work* in a real-world professional situation that they will never in a zillion years work in a real-world professional situation.


----------



## pmcrockett

David Kudell said:


> By the way, anyone who doesn't have Alex's Titan guitar sample library, it's an amazing sounding power chord library. I used it all over my track, so this whole thing might be Alex's fault after all.


Seconded -- I used Titan on my entry, too!


----------



## Eptesicus

charlieclouser said:


> People out there on teh interwebz are acting like this was a contest to find a cure for cancer, and the winning vaccine not only doesn't cure cancer, but also causes your left leg to fall off and is made from ground-up orphan brains.
> 
> Even if someone was the composer on a show like Westworld, totally knew the context that the genre change thing needed to fit into, and received a detailed brief from the show runners, that brief would probably be.... brief. Something like, "When he goes into the genre shift, we need to call that out with the score somehow, it needs to swerve off the road a little bit. See what you can come up with." Getting even that paltry amount of specificity would be like winning the spotting session lottery, tbh.
> 
> I usually get about this much instruction: "Make it scary." Actually, that's about two syllables more than I usually got on a show I scored for 110 episodes - the show runner like to only give me three-syllable instructions: "Make it dark." "Big fun time." "Make us cry." "He's bad ass." etc. In this case, he'd have said, "Genre shift." "He trips out." "Brain fart time." "Take chances" or just "Go wild, man."
> 
> Plus, you know the producers are already telling the music supervisor to find possible needle-drop candidates, tracks ranging from Arvo Part to ZZ Top, to have in their pocket just in case - and you're also going to do a more "normal" cue as an ALT so you won't have to scramble if your weird-o idea doesn't get smiles all around.
> 
> So you're sitting there, puzzling over how to "swerve off the road" with only a half-day to do it, so you mess around with some chip-tune sounds and think to yourself, "I wonder if..." but you don't want to spend too much time on it and leave yourself not enough time to do an alt version, let alone the other thirty cues in that episode. So you spend the evening throwing together a version based on your off-the-wall, spur-of-the-moment idea, and you stick it in the pile. I see one of four likely outcomes:
> 
> - "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's pretty far out. But we all loved it. Risky but we're using it."
> 
> - "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's too far out. We're going with the alt which sounds like the chase cue from episode four."
> 
> - "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's just a little bit too far out. Is there a way to take some of the crazy elements from it and integrate them into the alt? Like just a few of those sounds over top of the chase cue from episode four?"
> 
> - "Oh, didn't anybody tell you? We decided to use the Arvo Part track layered with the ZZ Top song."
> 
> In any of those cases, the minimum acceptable response is: "Huh.... Oh well, that works."
> 
> And even that smacks of grumpiness and butt-hurt-ery. An even more acceptable response would be, "Cool. Any thoughts on the cue for the end of reel three?"
> 
> I am surprised that this type of response is so rare in the flood of comments, or why so many are willing to go on record with petty protestations, lamentations, and accusations of nepotism, rule-bending, or incompetent judging. After all, it's their show and their contest, they can pick whatever music they want for it, for whatever reason, and they owe no composer or anybody else any explanation or justification - just like it would be in a real-world professional situation.
> 
> I knew there would be a zillion people whose dream is to work in a real-world professional situation, but I'm surprised that there are a zillion people whose attitudes are so far away from what would actually *work* in a real-world professional situation that they will never in a zillion years work in a real-world professional situation.



Off topic, but can I just say, the SAW theme is genuinely one of my favourite film themes. Bloody love it.


----------



## Dale Turner

charlieclouser said:


> - "Oh, didn't anybody tell you? We decided to use the Arvo Part track layered with the ZZ Top song."



"Sharp-Dressed Arvo"


----------



## Mike Greene

With Hans's response, and then David's response to Hans (check it out - you won't be sorry), it would have been great if the thread ended right there. Obviously people still have positive things to say, though, which is nice, so the thread continues. As it should. (Who doesn't love a Charlie post?)

However, there is still that subset of people who want to keep harping on the same complaints. Interestingly, it's a smaller group of people than you might think, but boy do they post a lot, so it gives the appearance of much more controversy here than there actually is. Not to mention three of them joined yesterday specifically to complain here, knowing this is where Paul and Christian would be.

So in the interest of keeping this thread on a positive track, and since I don't see anything new coming from the _"Unfair! Unfair! Unfaaaaaair!!!_" bunch, if you still have criticisms for how the contest was run, please post those in the Drama Zone thread, not here.

All positive posts are still welcome here, of course.


----------



## HardyP

charlieclouser said:


> Hahahaha that's what Spitfire should do - run a similar contest every week, and every week announce that David's piece has won.


...with 11000x the very same piece, of course!! 

@Mike Greene - exactly, I think there are only a handfull of users driving the same arguments over and over again.
But maybe it´s better to close the thread for all comments, also just appraisals and congrats do not bring any further value. Those should be done on his YT channel in order to counterballance the bad boys.


----------



## dreddiknight

Honestly, this huge negative response seems not a little ridiculous to me. Entitlement, arrogance, misdirected anger, rationalising on an epic scale, judgemental, ungrateful, blinkered, childish, attention seeking tantrums. 

FFS. Deal with it like adults. 

The music industry is a creative one and thus subjective. End of story. You disagree with the result? Cool. Move on.

Maybe it's lockdown fever. I remember feeling angry a few weeks ago... Oh no that was something else... Still angry about it actually but even at my angers (and sadness too I confess) height, it's dwarfed by some of the vitriol I've seen online about this flipping competition... 

It's just a ride people... And it had it's fun moments and people enjoyed composing for an excellent HBO show. Maybe the journey could be seen as more important than the destination for 10,994 of us.

Ps that genre change was an obvious cue to change up styles; my idea which I did not complete was to change to a funk/ hip hop style with orchestral elements. David had a similar idea and executed it in attention grabbing style. Bravo!


----------



## Mike Greene

HardyP said:


> @Mike Greene - exactly, I think there are only a handfull of users driving the same arguments over and over again.
> But maybe it´s better to close the thread for all comments, also just appraisals and congrats do not bring any further value. Those should be done on his YT channel in order to counterballance the bad boys.


If we close this one, someone would start another one. BTDT  

Plus, Paul, Christian, David, you or anyone else may still have things to say, so I want to keep that door open. And even if someone has nothing to say but congratulations, that's kinda nice, too.


----------



## reutunes

@Mike Greene Keep it open. We'll kill 'em with kindness.


----------



## Rctec

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.
> 
> Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?
> 
> My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.
> 
> As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.
> 
> David


!!!CONGRATULATIONS, DAVID!!! now - onward and upward! Hz


----------



## kriskrause

I’ve hesitated to comment because I’ve had a hard time understanding how a free contest, whose only stated prize was winning Spitfire’s Everything bundle (which is awesome, but overkill for most of us), has attracted the reaction it did. 

But before this thread is closed, let me make the only comment that matters: Congratulations, @David Kudell!


----------



## Lo28

David Kudell said:


> By the way, anyone who doesn't have Alex's Titan guitar sample library, it's an amazing sounding power chord library. I used it all over my track, so this whole thing might be Alex's fault after all.


Titan is fantastic indeed, as are Alex Pfeffers other libraries! I too used them in my entry.


----------



## BlackDorito

Let me make the other only-comment-that-matters - there are 11,000 of us who took up the challenge. 500 would have been startling, but 11,000 is boggling. Like looking up at the stars at night and realizing you are a speck. We composer specks need to set our own goals, work hard, and gain satisfaction whatever accomplishments we make toward those goals.


----------



## DexiMas

BlackDorito said:


> Let me make the other only-comment-that-matters - there are 11,000 of us who took up the challenge. 500 would have been startling, but 11,000 is boggling. Like looking up at the stars at night and realizing you are a speck. We composer specks need to set our own goals, work hard, and gain satisfaction whatever accomplishments we make toward those goals.


I was honestly shocked at the amount of entries. I didn't think it would be anywhere near that many


----------



## Waywyn

David Kudell said:


> By the way, anyone who doesn't have Alex's Titan guitar sample library, it's an amazing sounding power chord library. I used it all over my track, so this whole thing might be Alex's fault after all.



Ha! Thank you so much, David! I am floored! 🚀


----------



## easyrider

reutunes said:


> @Mike Greene Keep it open. We'll kill 'em with kindness.



All you need is LOVE


----------



## NYC Composer

easyrider said:


> All you need is LOVE


...and cowbell.


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Congrats David. Great work. Have fun with your new libraries


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

It's truly unfortunate that we live in a world where people are so petty and filled with small-minded jealousy and hatred as to act so toxic and hostile to the winners.

I like David's reaction. A good opportunity to develop a thick skin. p.s. congrats David, when I heard your entry before the winners were announced, to be honest, it was the best entry I had heard and remained so until the final announcement (mine exempted of course!) But no, really; you struck the nail square and I hope you reap all the benefits.

Many of the truly hostile individuals are just coming at you from the darkest corners of the internet. I hope you may still see there are others who are not so poisoned by web culture. I can totally understand HZ's frustration with it, it's something that has become more prevalent over the years; I especially see it all the time on video-game forums. One thing I've noticed is that, quite often, people who have nothing _horrible_ to say will simply _say nothing_; they stay quiet and unnoticed (and of course, not drawing attention to themselves thus avoiding being attacked.) What I really mean to get at is that I think there is a silent majority of good people out there; and it's just one of the negative sides of life that the loud, nasty ones are what we see more often (on the web.)


----------



## dzilizzi

N.Caffrey said:


> Not sure if it’s been posted already but I found this pretty spot on:
> 
> 
> 1) If it took you "weeks" to put together your 4-minute Westworld sample, you're not ready for this industry
> 
> 2) If you put all your hopes and dreams into a single bit of work, hoping it would be your key to your future, you're not ready for this industry.
> 
> 3) If you're furious that the judges went with something that you didn't like, or wasn't what you would have done, then you're not ready for this industry.


Wait, so I'm ready for this industry? Cool!

Now if only I could write without using phrase libraries, EZKeys midi, and things like Heavyocity and Action Strings, I would be set!


----------



## BlackDorito

dzilizzi said:


> phrase libraries, EZKeys midi, and things like Heavyocity and Action Strings


Those are only tools. Your spirit needs to transcend mere tools and fly, fly ... fly.


----------



## dzilizzi

Loïc D said:


> Feeling threatened, Spitfire Audio publicly announced that they are pro-Brexit now.
> The contestants will have to prove they have at least 1/4th of British blood to enter future competitions.


Thank goodness for my British grandmother! I can compete!

Trying to catch up on this. Seems to have calmed down a bit after the initial angry responses. I'm just glad I didn't have to judge this thing. For one thing, I had trouble listening to more than 3 or 4 in a row. Those poor judges needed a silent room for about a week afterward.


----------



## Johnny

Karl Feuerstake said:


> It's truly unfortunate that we live in a world where people are so petty and filled with small-minded jealousy and hatred as to act so toxic and hostile to the winners.
> 
> I like David's reaction. A good opportunity to develop a thick skin. p.s. congrats David, when I heard your entry before the winners were announced, to be honest, it was the best entry I had heard and remained so until the final announcement (mine exempted of course!) But no, really; you struck the nail square and I hope you reap all the benefits.
> 
> Many of the truly hostile individuals are just coming at you from the darkest corners of the internet. I hope you may still see there are others who are not so poisoned by web culture. I can totally understand HZ's frustration with it, it's something that has become more prevalent over the years; I especially see it all the time on video-game forums. One thing I've noticed is that, quite often, people who have nothing _horrible_ to say will simply _say nothing_; they stay quiet and unnoticed (and of course, not drawing attention to themselves thus avoiding being attacked.) What I really mean to get at is that I think there is a silent majority of good people out there; and it's just one of the negative sides of life that the loud, nasty ones are what we see more often (on the web.)


Well said. I work in AAA games and there are many times I could differ from my colleagues in what I would deem as being the "right composition" or sound design for any given scene or moment within a project. Instead, I choose to value and respect any person(s)/colleagues artistic expression and talent; I often remind myself that music is subjective, if I dislike like something, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong, it is just different, and isn't that a beautiful aspect of artistic creation


----------



## Pincel

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.
> 
> Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?
> 
> My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.
> 
> As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.
> 
> David



Man, that's a great read! Very heart-warming. You seem to have a great attitude towards all of this, so that makes you a double-winner! 

Congratulations, and please keep on going, I have a feeling you have what it takes to succeed.

By the way, Beyond Rangoon is one of my favourite scores of all time, so I can totally relate.

All the best for the future!


----------



## ebowser

David, you are handling all this with such class. Congratulations again.


----------



## Kwamena

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.
> 
> Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?
> 
> My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.
> 
> As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.
> 
> David


Congrats David! I had a listen to your submission early on when you posted it here and thought it had a real chance of winning jut because it was memorable AND fun. 

I think being negative of the winner (to this extent) is a reflection of people's privilege. Just because you don't agree with the winner does not excuse all this pettiness IMO. I agree it's good to have constructive talk about the submissions, their fit and stylistic things but pure negativity towards David or organisers doesn't lead to anywhere. I'm just happy to been able to take part, happy that 6 people got amazing prices, happy about charity towards COVID19 and happy that 11000 people got a high quality footage to work on their craft and creativity in these trying times. 

My submission is here. I would LOVE some constructive criticism on this piece because I want to get better and I love composing more than anything. That's why it's hard for me to feel negativity about this as 6 amazing composers won but we had 11000 new pieces of music in the world which is a win in itself. Piece and Love.


----------



## dzilizzi

BlackDorito said:


> Those are only tools. Your spirit needs to transcend mere tools and fly, fly ... fly.


Dammit! I knew I should have taken the wings when they offered them.....


----------



## RoyBatty

Michael Antrum said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the winner picked by the Westworld people, and not by the Spitfire people who just did the initial filtering ?
> 
> l honestly think people are just embarrassing themselves now.





Polkasound said:


> I would like to offer a perspective from someone who is in a different place than everyone else in this thread, and no doubt most everyone else in this forum. This is a perspective from someone who has absolutely zero interest in film music:
> 
> To me, most music for suspense and action scenes comes off as predictable. As a musician, I can appreciate all that goes into it, but at the end of the day, it's more of the same to me. The first time I heard David Kudell's entry, I found myself smiling from ear to ear. It struck me as a bold breath of fresh air. For a guy like me, that's what makes a film-watching experience more enjoyable.



i agree, it made me smile and laugh ... even knowing Westworld would never be scored like that. A bit over the top, but well done.


----------



## Rory

Just uploaded. The timing appears not be entirely coincidental...

"Hey Geoff: How do I get started as a composer?"


----------



## proxima

Congrats to the winners! I was highly amused that the winner was one of the handful of videos I had seen, from VI-C, and definitely one of the most memorable. 

I'd be really interested in followup, by both Spitfire and David (together? separately?). I'm curious how the selection process worked, some feedback from the judges, etc. From David, I'd be interested in how he blended chiptunes with orchestral music, how long he spent on it, what were some of the harder choices, etc.

Unfortunately, I fear that the internet response may have been so negative that all the parties involved may want to put this behind them. That may include avoiding future competitions like this. While I did not participate, I think that would be a shame.


----------



## Drundfunk

Mike Greene said:


> I just looked and ... yowzers indeed!
> 
> I think a lot of people there just don't get it. They have a very set idea of how shows should be scored and deviation from that model is verboten.


To me the most bizarre thing about this whole contest and the discussion revolving around it, is to see a german verb casually thrown into an english sentence... . Someone should have told my english teacher that this is actually allowed....


----------



## Diego G

I don't know why I feel the need to write this, but just my two cents:

First of all, congrats to David on his win, absolute fair play to him. I think people trying to find conflicts of interest in order to discredit his win are completely out of line.

Second, if the showrunners themselves chose his entry, then that's pretty much it, isn't it? I don't personally care much about what the rules were or if they were "bent" and whatnot. I think the organizers are at liberty to make whatever decisions they want, it's their contest.

However I do feel that there are some mixed messages emerging from all this, and I'm not sure what we're supposed to learn from this, other than the obvious (it's only a competition, it was free, don't be bitter, move on, have fun, keep writing, etc.). I'm trying to frame this as respectfully as possible, so as not to be dismissed as a bitter hater.

I've taken part in many competitions and invariably when I listen to the winning entry I think "this decision makes sense, this really elevates the scene" (of course that's wildly subjective). What was so different about this one? Why do we think this particular competition has been so controversial while others haven't?

I remember Harry Gregson Williams saying in an interview that originality is important, but not at the expense of the film. As I said in a previous comment in this same thread, I can't help but think that if I had done this for a director I'm working on for the first time on a real world project, I would have been fired. If I had done this on a pitch, I probably would have been dismissed out of hand. Someone else commented "that's because you're looking at this like it was a real world situation, it's not" and to that I say... yes? Yes, I did look at this the way I would look at it in a real world situation. Was I not supposed to? Forgive the stupid question but, are film scoring competitions NOT about "proper" film scoring then? (I know this raises the question about what is "proper" film scoring and that is a can of worms in and of itself). Have I been looking at this wrong the entire time? Are competitions not supposed to give those still not working in the industry, a small taste of what work in the real work is like, where sticking to the brief and serving the story first and foremost is encouraged rather than being standing out for the sake of standing out? We've all heard from people like the ASCAP workshop organizers that we need to "be serious" in our submissions so as not to waste the time of their busy jurors. Someone please help me make me sense of this.

I have read comments saying how they were smiling and grinning throughout while listening to David's entry, but... is that really the intention of the scene? To make the audience smile ear to ear as if they're watching a comedy? Looks like a pretty serious scene to me, like a legit life or death chase situation. Although with the Wagner in the original scene, I admit it's not cut and dry and it's ultimately all subjective.

And here I was concerned that my using some ethnic vocals and some rock elements in addition to the hybrid orchestral writing was pushing the envelope xD

And lastly, whatever happens. I was super happy with my entry and I'm glad I took the time to do it and would do so again in a heartbeat. Respect to the Spitfire team for this massive undertaking.

Peace out everyone.


----------



## ned3000

Congrats again to David, and the classy response to all this negativity is admirable.

I can empathize with (if not condone) some of the negativity. I had the same initial reaction: "the joke entry won, WTF!" That lasted like 5 seconds though and I started to think about it and it made sense. That music elicited an emotional response. It was laugh out loud funny at spots but also kind of invigorating due to the pure audaciousness, like "I don't know what's going to happen next here." I think that kind of primes the listener for the following parts in just the right way. Also I doubt there'd be so many complaints without the overt sound effects but that's really the ballsiest part. He went all-in with the concept.


----------



## dzilizzi

Giudan said:


> Come on. You gotta find it hilarious that in a worldwide competition with people from all different countries the winner ends up being an 40 yo American man veteran in the industry with JJ Abrams in his CV. Even if it's just a coincidence it's so silly that you have to accept the reaction.


You'd think that. But a lot of the composers here actually liked David's entry and thought it was one of the top contenders. Having heard the winning entry from a prior contest, it did not surprise me it won. It was different from all the other entries as far as I could tell. I didn't listen to them all. (Though there was that chicken one....) There were a few professionals that entered, though most didn't bother if they had actual paying gig. If it was a fixed contest, one of them would have one. Or someone like me, since I think I own half their libraries and the top prize would have been a lot less for them.


----------



## dflood

charlieclouser said:


> ....which an astonishing number of humans have failed.


Amen to that


----------



## edwar64896

Just love listening to this. It's probably the one entry that is entertaining, nails every single beat, leaves space for the dialogue, enhances the narrative - and you can listen to it again and again and still not lose any enjoyment. Good work. Onwards and upwards mate.


----------



## visiblenoise

I can't fathom the hate. Like, bruh, how are you gonna take an open competition with no entry fee so personally?


----------



## Black Light Recordings

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.
> 
> Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?
> 
> My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.
> 
> As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.
> 
> David



Dave. Congratulations to you, good sir. Your entry was not my brand of Vodka  (liked that you worked and developed two motifs/not with the 8-bit thing) but your response to this calamity is an inspiration. You obviously have skills but more importantly, you have character. Celebrate and enjoy!


----------



## Audio Birdi

Congrats @David Kudell! definitely put a smile on my face and found what you did, very enjoyable with a great twist! :D

Congrats to all the runners up too! Loved that there was so much variation in entries throughout this competition!


----------



## turnerofwheels

Congrats to the winner and runners up. I am relieved to find a reasonable conversation on the competition here after browsing through the tantrums and vitrol on SF's page today.. keep making music all


----------



## mducharme

Congratulations @David Kudell, great work, and same to the runners up.

For those who submitted entries they felt were strong but didn't get runner-up - don't feel dejected by this. Most of the greatest film composers have had at least one rejected score, and writing a score that is rejected is certainly a worse experience than not winning a competition (which is not the same as being rejected).


----------



## Black Light Recordings

Diego G said:


> I don't know why I feel the need to write this, but just my two cents:
> 
> First of all, congrats to David on his win, absolute fair play to him. I think people trying to find conflicts of interest in order to discredit his win are completely out of line.
> 
> Second, if the showrunners themselves chose his entry, then that's pretty much it, isn't it? I don't personally care much about what the rules were or if they were "bent" and whatnot. I think the organizers are at liberty to make whatever decisions they want, it's their contest.
> 
> However I do feel that there are some mixed messages emerging from all this, and I'm not sure what we're supposed to learn from this, other than the obvious (it's only a competition, it was free, don't be bitter, move on, have fun, keep writing, etc.). I'm trying to frame this as respectfully as possible, so as not to be dismissed as a bitter hater.
> 
> I've taken part in many competitions and invariably when I listen to the winning entry I think "this decision makes sense, this really elevates the scene" (of course that's wildly subjective). What was so different about this one? Why do we think this particular competition has been so controversial while others haven't?
> 
> I remember Harry Gregson Williams saying in an interview that originality is important, but not at the expense of the film. As I said in a previous comment in this same thread, I can't help but think that if I had done this for a director I'm working on for the first time on a real world project, I would have been fired. If I had done this on a pitch, I probably would have been dismissed out of hand. Someone else commented "that's because you're looking at this like it was a real world situation, it's not" and to that I say... yes? Yes, I did look at this the way I would look at it in a real world situation. Was I not supposed to? Forgive the stupid question but, are film scoring competitions NOT about "proper" film scoring then? (I know this raises the question about what is "proper" film scoring and that is a can of worms in and of itself). Have I been looking at this wrong the entire time? Are competitions not supposed to give those still not working in the industry, a small taste of what work in the real work is like, where sticking to the brief and serving the story first and foremost is encouraged rather than being standing out for the sake of standing out? We've all heard from people like the ASCAP workshop organizers that we need to "be serious" in our submissions so as not to waste the time of their busy jurors. Someone please help me make me sense of this.
> 
> I have read comments saying how they were smiling and grinning throughout while listening to David's entry, but... is that really the intention of the scene? To make the audience smile ear to ear as if they're watching a comedy? Looks like a pretty serious scene to me, like a legit life or death chase situation. Although with the Wagner in the original scene, I admit it's not cut and dry and it's ultimately all subjective.
> 
> And here I was concerned that my using some ethnic vocals and some rock elements in addition to the hybrid orchestral writing was pushing the envelope xD
> 
> And lastly, whatever happens. I was super happy with my entry and I'm glad I took the time to do it and would do so again in a heartbeat. Respect to the Spitfire team for this massive undertaking.
> 
> Peace out everyone.



Deigo

It is tough to make sense of this all. But when you stop to think about it, there is a fundamental shift in how stories are told today. I scored the scene on face value. I was still watching season 1 and had not gotten to season 3 when I wrote my score. So I watched the clip and captured my initial reactions in notes. Who is Aaron Paul's character? Why is the guy with the glasses here? Why does Delores look like she is in the "Simply Irresistible" video? What are the stakes? Who has the upper hand? What is the flow of the drama? HTF is genre related to anything and why/how is Aaron Paul switching it? What do the actions here say about the characters? How are the characters related to each other? After watching the clip with no music 5 times I could not figure any of it out. So I just scored what was happening on screen but it felt disconnected because there really was no drama to connect to.

Yatta Yatta Yatta, a few weeks later I caught up to Season 3 and saw the scene as it was presented......with Ride of the Valkeries as the score. I had so many questions. Who is Aaron Paul's character? Why is the guy with the glasses here? Why does Delores look like she is in the "Simply Irresistible" video? What are the stakes? Who has the upper hand? What is the flow of the drama? What do the actions here say about the characters? How are the characters related to each other? What genre is "Ride of the Valkeries"?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the creators of the show have a certain set of sensibilities as do all artists. If the creators are the judges then there are two distinct things that need to happen. One: the composer has to be talented enough to show a level of competence in his/her work. @DavidKudell demonstrated that for sure. The second part is where the luck comes in. The sensibilities of the composer have to match the sensibilities of the judges (in this case the creators). Based on the selection of Wagner for the actual scene (a selection that does not compliment the scene on its face), there should be no surprise that the winner was outside the box.

The lesson here is that the sensibilities of the judges are every bit as important as the skill of the composer. David connected on both.


Now I'm going to watch Robert Palmer:



G


----------



## chocobitz825

Diego G said:


> I don't know why I feel the need to write this, but just my two cents:
> 
> First of all, congrats to David on his win, absolute fair play to him. I think people trying to find conflicts of interest in order to discredit his win are completely out of line.
> 
> Second, if the showrunners themselves chose his entry, then that's pretty much it, isn't it? I don't personally care much about what the rules were or if they were "bent" and whatnot. I think the organizers are at liberty to make whatever decisions they want, it's their contest.
> 
> However I do feel that there are some mixed messages emerging from all this, and I'm not sure what we're supposed to learn from this, other than the obvious (it's only a competition, it was free, don't be bitter, move on, have fun, keep writing, etc.). I'm trying to frame this as respectfully as possible, so as not to be dismissed as a bitter hater.
> 
> I've taken part in many competitions and invariably when I listen to the winning entry I think "this decision makes sense, this really elevates the scene" (of course that's wildly subjective). What was so different about this one? Why do we think this particular competition has been so controversial while others haven't?
> 
> I remember Harry Gregson Williams saying in an interview that originality is important, but not at the expense of the film. As I said in a previous comment in this same thread, I can't help but think that if I had done this for a director I'm working on for the first time on a real world project, I would have been fired. If I had done this on a pitch, I probably would have been dismissed out of hand. Someone else commented "that's because you're looking at this like it was a real world situation, it's not" and to that I say... yes? Yes, I did look at this the way I would look at it in a real world situation. Was I not supposed to? Forgive the stupid question but, are film scoring competitions NOT about "proper" film scoring then? (I know this raises the question about what is "proper" film scoring and that is a can of worms in and of itself). Have I been looking at this wrong the entire time? Are competitions not supposed to give those still not working in the industry, a small taste of what work in the real work is like, where sticking to the brief and serving the story first and foremost is encouraged rather than being standing out for the sake of standing out? We've all heard from people like the ASCAP workshop organizers that we need to "be serious" in our submissions so as not to waste the time of their busy jurors. Someone please help me make me sense of this.
> 
> I have read comments saying how they were smiling and grinning throughout while listening to David's entry, but... is that really the intention of the scene? To make the audience smile ear to ear as if they're watching a comedy? Looks like a pretty serious scene to me, like a legit life or death chase situation. Although with the Wagner in the original scene, I admit it's not cut and dry and it's ultimately all subjective.
> 
> And here I was concerned that my using some ethnic vocals and some rock elements in addition to the hybrid orchestral writing was pushing the envelope xD
> 
> And lastly, whatever happens. I was super happy with my entry and I'm glad I took the time to do it and would do so again in a heartbeat. Respect to the Spitfire team for this massive undertaking.
> 
> Peace out everyone.



Actually the theme totally fit. What people don’t see in the competition video is the noir scene that played in the intro of the original broadcast. It was somewhat tongue in cheek since Aaron Paul’s character is on a party drug called “genre” which changes the tone of his perspective and the soundtrack as he goes through the stages of the high. he’s warned later to “watch out for that final act”. If visual cues had been added like with the noir scene prior, it would make complete sense.


----------



## rgames

Did Beethoven ever win a composing contest? I don't know, but I know there are contests named after him.

And let's not forget Sibelius' famous quip: "There are no statues of critics."

Just keep it all in perspective.

rgames


----------



## brek

Before criticizing the winning entry for not matching the context of the scene, it would be useful to take in more of the context:
[Hope there isn't a copyright issue in posting the clip]
View attachment Westworld Love Story_H.264_1.mp4


----------



## Sadrumet

It is time to Celebrate! Congratulations @David Kudell ! All the luck for your future Works


----------



## brek

I know everyone is talking about the chiptune stuff, but let's take a moment to celebrate the most bad-ass part of the score (which uses more traditional instrumentation):


----------



## dgmusic

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



100 percent this ^

What happened to a sense of community and comradery?


----------



## Jaap

Well what I really liked about David his entry is that is it inspires again to take a new approach.

In the end I couldn't make it due to a lack of time by finishing off my entry, but still planning to continue to work on it for fun and learning and watched Davids submission again gets me inspired again to try and think out of the box for this clip, so a big thanks David for this great learning experience as well!


----------



## Darío Benbassat

Hello to all. I'm new here. Just wanted to comment a few things I posted on a facebook group of film composers and stuff related. 

First of all, I liked the selected scores, I think they're all original, well performed and well deserved. Congratulations to the winners!

There was some doubts about how the Spitfire team managed to check all those entries, but after reading here that they did it, I consider myself accomplished. That was the main reason why I decided to make a score and post an entry for this contest. It's nice to have your score seen by professionals that work in the industry at a high level. 

I think It's normal to be a little disappointed for not being selected (I had very little expectations to win considering the amount of scores submitted, although I couldn't help been a bit disappointed too), but that's part of the game. I had to confess that I was a little surprised too by the score when I saw the announcement, but then I understood why it was selected. It was original, fun, well made, and totally coherent with the scene. After all, he was "switching genres".

I think that before the winners announcement (at least in those facebook groups) there was a sort of composers community emerged, where we were all looking to other's entries, appreciating different approaches, and giving feedback with good intentions. It's sad that that a big part of that community turned out sour and angry and reacted against the winner and contest organizers. I hope the winner and runners-up be able not to worry about that comments and just enjoy their recognition. It is well deserved. 

(Sorry for my bad english if something is not well expressed, I'm not a native english speaker)
Best regards, 
Darío


----------



## Mike Fox

Bruhelius said:


> I used to have a Croatian friend who still lives on a small island to this day... his mantra was one word. I keep coming back to it after decades. It's this: "ENJOY".
> Sounds like something out of an advert? Maybe. But this is the philosophy of a winner on this planet. Someone who can enjoy anything. If you couldn't enjoy the announcement of the winners, and enjoy what that is bringing to your life, then probably you are living your life for the wrong reasons. Don't just produce music. Enjoy music and the process it entails with your peers. If you perceive a moment to be "bad" you can always find a way to enjoy what new things this bad moment can bring to your life...there are over 11000 of us. Now enjoy that. Enjoy the few years you have left to live. Enjoy your make-believe composer hut on a lake. Enjoy bringing music to the foot of someone's death bed. Enjoy how it connects people. Enjoy that you were not chosen as a so-called winner this time. Enjoy what good things may come to David Kudell. And enjoy your personal growth as a human with limited time left.



This post should be a sticky!


----------



## SupremeFist

The clip to be scored was a thoroughly dull generic action scene where omg cars asplode!! 

The winning music made it actually tremendously enjoyable to watch. 

Job done! 

Many congratulations to David. 🤘🏻


----------



## Mike Fox

Hired Goon said:


> There's too much bias going on here. Composers congratulating composers, which I guess is natural and expected, but not honest.
> 
> Why would anybody drop 8-bit in a scene that looked like it was serious? It was jarring and completely takes you out of the story. At first you laugh, then you lose track of what's happening in the scene, and then you are just scratching your head. It does nothing for the greater good, unless this scene is supposed to be a comedy.


The ability to be happy and congratulate someone for their rightfully deserved success (regardless of your personal opinion towards the winning submission) isn't related to biases or dishonesty, but rather respect, good sportsmanship, and the understanding of what a fair competiton actually encompasses.

You may disagree with the judges final decision, but this wasn't a "People's Choice Awards" ceremony, and it's incredibly disrespectful to label people in this thread as biased and dishonest, all because they were simply expressing their happiness and excitement for David's rightfully earned success. 

You're entitled to your opposing opinion, but that opinion doesn't even come close to justifying the kind of bold and completely unecessary judgment you're attempting to place on others.


----------



## Lex

I'm curious, does anyone know how many submissions have Paul and his team send to Abrams, Joy, Nolan and Djawadi? 

best,

alex


----------



## FarleyCZ

Come on, guys. Just a reminder. There was 11,000 submissions. They had to pick one. Whatever they would pick, it would upset anyone that wouldn't share the point of view that the particular composer had. Don't be entitled. You're not a bad composer just because you haven't been picked in a massive world wide competition.


----------



## FinGael

NYC Composer said:


> ...and cowbell.



Don't forget sleigh bells. 

Ok - N too.


----------



## NDRU

Cut me some slack. Let's stop here.. Reveal your names and speak out  this is no lynching game.. I would suggest, until you have written a score for your 10th feature & live to tell the tale. Then you can wear a badge to offer your opinion on "what is the 'perfect' music for the scene". NO further discussion if you have yet to survive your first commercial feature film. I doubt it..

You will be a changed human being by now if you did. So now.... Get some sleep, write more music, and be a little nicer. Peace ✌


----------



## StefanoM

Hi guys,

I would like to say my thoughts

For all those who comment badly..

I have a lot of experience and I worked for Fox, Disney/Marvel as sound designer and composer. There are two types of approaches in this type of scenario ( as a contest ).

Type 1, what you would probably have done if it had been commissioned, and type 2, the one where you take a risk of trying something special, something of " different".

Many of us have chosen the Type 1 road. David chose the Type 2 road and he won.

David has done a great " Think out of The Box "and its works for a Contest in a fantastic way.

So Congratulations dear David, are deserved!

Ste


----------



## A3D2

Congratulations on winning @David Kudell ! I sincerely hope that you can enjoy your victory despite some of the "internet negativity" because I really liked what you did and I am sure there are many who do (not to mention the awesome jury). Your entry was original, unexpected, bold and awesome. I hope this will create many opportunities for you!


----------



## Peter Satera

Ah the joys of the faceless internet! The problem is people didn't do it for fun. They did it for the prize and glory. I stand by my comment the first time I heard it. Congratulations again David.


----------



## Alex Niedt

Huge congratulations to David! Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. A lot of people would hang their heads in shame at their comments if they actually met David. I wish his warm and humble attitude would rub off on the portion of this community currently drowning itself in arrogance and entitlement.


----------



## Alex Fraser

This has been an eye opener for sure, and it's a shame as I bet Spitfire are re-considering any future competitions in light of the response.

(Now we know why Spitfire's release schedule as dropped from 17 products a week to zero - they've all been watching Westworld entries!)

A suggestion for any future competitions might be not to have one overall winner, but multiple categories to win, eg: Most inventive, best use of footage, most "metal" etc..

Also, have different "challenges" to win, eg: "Use strings only", "Use accordions only."

I jest, but you get the idea. A bigger winners pool = less arguments. Probably.


----------



## FarleyCZ

The problem is that when you include world's top talent in the jury (Nolan, Abrams, Djawadi, possibly even Hans himself), a lot of people just can't keep the mentality of having fun. It becomes a worldwide job application. Come on, people, you really thought you're gonna be so lucky to be picked from 11 000 entries? Even if they went for "serious score" as a winner, it probably wouldn't be yours. There was just too much talent. Just appreciate that this even happened. For me, this was amazing experience to even touch a material like that. I'd do it again with no chance of winning in a heartbeat. Congrats to David!


----------



## Primary Target

Congratulations to David for his excellent, winning entry. Such a shame that what should have been his time for celebration has become mired in unwarranted internet outrage. His posts in response have shown real character, grace and humility - something that many of his naysayers could do well to learn from.


----------



## Kent

halfwalk said:


> I'm embarrassed by proxy.


Yes, you've put your finger on it. Thanks for articulating.


----------



## South Thames

rt09 said:


> a lot of people just can't keep the mentality of having fun. It becomes a worldwide job application.



The main problem is people saw it like that. It was not a talent search, there were no career opportunities promised - this wasn't HBO searching for its next composer; it was basically a promotion for Spitfire and HBO and a bit of fun. The prize was merchandise. 

Not trying to take anything away from the winning entry, but I can't help but think the reason some people are so upset is they really thought, due to the stature of the judges, that an opportunity was at stake rather than a prize. 

It's possible (as with anything) that significant opportunities will flow from it, but I think it's rather unlikely.


----------



## FarleyCZ

I hope that opportunities would flow from it for David. But even if the main price was the best thing in the world. Even if it ment you're gonna fly to Hollywood never be seen home again ... even in that case, you just can't count on it by any mean. It still has to be just fun for you. You will not win. Period. One of 11000 participants will, but statistically, it just won't be you. I don't understand anyone who went to such a huge competition hoping in anything else. ...thus I absolutely don't understand the outrage. And it makes me sad, cause this way Spitfire or anyone else won't bother setting up something like that next time. And none of us will get a chance to play with a scene from an actual high profile TV show again ... just because some people's egos are hurt and they can't swallow it. Sad, really.


----------



## Kabraxis

I can't help myself to think, if Westworld actually used David's (superb) piece in the series, it would become *VIRAL *in a blink. And there's no better PR than people meme'ing your stuff - which even can save your series after dropping ratings to a third.


----------



## Studiodraven

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz


Thank you for writing this, HZ. It helped me put the competition into perspective, and hopefully it’ll do the same for others.
Like many others, I wasn’t sure about the winning entry at first. I didn’t understand at first why the judges picked it over other entries. But you know what? It wasn’t my decision, and I’m not a TV producer. I’m a musician, just like David. And what he did was what the judges were looking for.
Oh well. On to the next opportunity I go. That’s how it works.

The more I listen to his entry, the more I get what he was saying with it and the more I appreciate it. It’s also extremely well done. After the surprise wore off, I realised that I’d been laughing at the right moments. His piece WORKED.
I’m also an “old fart” (47 in May. Yikes), but unlike you I’m just starting out on this journey. I’ve only got one commercial job under my belt. I realise that I have a lot to learn, and your post and Christian’s have helped me enormously. I can see now that I need to think outside the box more when I write.
I’m not going to whinge about David’s work. I’ve already left 2 Facebook groups over the ridiculous amount of negativity floating to the surface at the moment. I don’t need that. I’ve got music to write.

We do this because we love doing making music. We’re musicians. I still remember the thrill of buying my first sampler (an Ensoniq Mirage, which I still have), and I still get that thrill every time I write something. That’s why I do it. Not to win competitions, or to make a load of money. I could make money sitting in an office. I do it because I love it. We all do.
I think a lot of people need to remember that.

So congratulations to David on a well deserved win. I hope others can appreciate what he brought to the table, and I hope this opens doors for him. He deserves it.


----------



## rt09

Kabraxis said:


> I can't help myself to think, if Westworld actually used David's (superb) piece in the series, it would become *VIRAL *in a blink. And there's no better PR than people meme'ing your stuff - which even can save your series after dropping ratings to a third.



It's possible! Personally I doubt it would have saved it. Genre was already a very polarizing episode inside the community of Westworld fans. This car chase scene specifically was mocked to no end. I think a more adventurous music choice may have just thrown more fuel upon the fire!


----------



## roalin

Congrats @David Kudell - we loved the piece!

Rast Team


----------



## madfiddler

As someone who "learnt the trade" writing chiptune on the Commodore Amiga for cracktro's back in the very early 90's I felt a huge glowey rush when I heard the winning track. 

Congratulations to @David Kudell - I thought it was very refreshing to hear something which wasn't trying to obviously sound like something else - something I think we all agree is an issue in the film industry, and is now becoming more of an issue in the games industry too.


----------



## Pedro Camacho

David Kudell said:


> @Rctec thank you for your wisdom and perspective. When they announced me as the winner and then I saw the feedback start coming in, I told myself that this is going to be an incredible opportunity to develop thick skin. And to act with class no matter what people say. Because if I am going to be a successful composer, dealing with criticism from directors who have trusted me with their project, then sucking it up and getting back to work, it is going to be a LOT tougher than what some people on the internet say.
> 
> Here's a photo of me today, back at my day job but so wanting to be on my computer composing music. You might notice the shirt that I bought on your tour in LA. A tour that my wife, not a film music fan, said was the best concert she's ever been to. That's because your music connects to so many people on an emotional level and appeals to not just musicians. What better thing to aspire to?
> 
> My whole life I've been afraid to take risks with my music. Avoiding putting my music out there for fear it's not good enough. At 43 years old, I kick myself that I didn't follow through with music when I was scoring a student film 25 years ago. Ironic then that I won this contest by what else: Taking a risk with a take on this scene that was different. As much as I would love to try doing a version of Dark Knight, guess what - you've already done that, you invented it and it's time for us to try something new.
> 
> As a longtime fan who, I'm not ashamed to admit, gets a little teary-eyed every time he listens to Beyond Rangoon, just reading your comment here is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me. Thank you HZ.
> 
> David


Hey @David Kudell !! I went to your facebook page minutes after the announcement to like your post.
As soon as I heard your "level up" on the gun reload I knew you had to win! It just put a huge smile in my face.
If my father was alive he would have loved it too, he was my first gaming partner and film enthusiast.

About negativity... most of it is probably just envy in disguise, ignore it.

When I was 26 and made by debut into scores everyone I spoke to told me:
"You won't be able to score anything significant living in Portugal and, even worse, in Madeira Island."

I had some really good classical training but that was it (clearly not enough)... I had no one around to help me into mixing, scoring etc. - island... - My school was playing games every day and seeing movies every weekend since tender age.
At some point I needed help - and boy it was hard to get since everyone kept everything for themselves. I was told all my life I was always "too kind" of a person to be successful.
Strangely, the only person that kindly helped me without hesitation back in 2007 (and he went deep into it...) was Thomas Bergersen before he started in Two Steps from Hell.
I couldn't believe it, the best one in midi mockups was also the kindest.

That moment boosted my morale and I gave back as much as a could to Thomas and to others. If everyone I helped helps another the world is a happier place (isn't that why we are here in this globe in the first place?).

This moment, when I was 26, just reminded me I was actually in the right path and being (genuinely) kind is also one of the keys to success. Also being kind makes you more open to critique. Negative people usually take criticism as something personal... (I know tons of people that come to me looking for help and are like this... and get angry if I don't praise their work.)

Seeing @Rctec take his time to come here just proves to me, once again, kindness/positivity/open mindness IS the right path.

My son is 7 today so I can't be much longer than this (haha) but thank you for making me smile with your entry.

Keep working and don't let any lost battle defeat you... ever!
Pedro


----------



## cinemuse

ThomCSounds said:


> I like what you said about the fact of doing music day in and day out being a luxury. It reminds me of this great quote by Jose Mujica criticising our modern way of living :
> 
> "When I buy something, when you buy something, you are not paying money for it.
> You are paying with the hours of life you had to spend earning that money.
> 
> The difference is that life is one thing money can’t buy.
> Life only gets shorter. And it is pitiful to waste one’s life and freedom that way."



David's winning cue was exceptionally well-produced, entertaining, and astoundingly sure of itself. All good things. What struck me as disqualifying was that, perhaps because he comes at this from advertising rather than drama, he seems to have ignored one of the "cardinal precepts": if you need to explain why you did what you did, it probably ain't working. And, at least for me, he has some 'splaining to do. What surprises me most is that the jury--all pros--let him get away with it. How can one hear the 8-bit trumpet cavalry charge ("You won!") blown over the big detonation as anything other than a joke? But then again, maybe I didn't get the memo. I stopped watching WW after season one! - ah


----------



## MGdepp

Supremo said:


> Allow me to lower the tension here? I mean really, let's put aside all hard feelings and congratulate David, who did a very good job afterall!
> 
> 
> According to Christian Henson, even Stanley Kubrick would have voted for this entry. That's quite an amusing statement and I immediately imagined what it would sound like if we had yet another scoring competition, this time for a scene from Kubrick's film.



This is brilliant! And it really tells its own story - a direction that is not present in the film itself. It adds a unique dimension to the film - just what film music should always do! Fuck Bartok! This is the way to go!


----------



## poetd

Social Media has trained people to be the worst version of themselves.

Step away from it and look at what the other COMPOSERS have to say about it - their response has been universal - even those who didn't particularly love his work still chimed in with congrats for him.

Its whats best for YOU in the long run. Sincerely.


----------



## MauroPantin

No way to know this for sure, but with the reaction and the ad-hominem attacks towards their integrity I would bet the guys over at Spitfire are going: "So, that was fun. Let's _never _do it again."


----------



## JoelS

I really enjoyed the winning track, and _it fit the scene 100%! _

Maybe this was said somewhere in the volumes of posts about the contest, but it bears repeating: that episode was structured around the conceit that the guy with the gun was dosed with a party drug that made him hallucinate that he was in different genres of media entertainment. It was played as comedic, which was rare in an otherwise very serious series. Several of the runners-up also reflected the comedic genre shift. A few others played it straight, which wouldn't have worked as well in the context of the actual episode.

@FuzyDunlop It wasn't a 'joke' track, it fit the scene perfectly in the context of the episode in which it aired. The scene before that had Caleb thinking he was in a film noir, and directly after it while he's standing next to Dolores armed to the teeth, he thinks he's in a sappy romance. Romance music plays. It was a comedic scene. The actual scene in the show is scored with Flight Of The Valkyries, to comedic effect and probably as a reference to Apocalypse Now.

David scored to picture very well, imo, and absolutely captured the spirit of that episode.

I guess not a lot of composers watched Westworld. I like the series a lot and think it posed interesting questions about the nature of AI, sentience, morality, good and evil.


----------



## Dale Turner

South Thames said:


> The prize was merchandise.



The prize is being heard by Jonathan Nolan, Lisa Joy and J.J. Abrams (and Ramin Djawadi).


----------



## JoelS

FuzyDunlop said:


> It wasn't a prerequisite. We were scoring the scene presented, as presented.


Half the winners scored it straight, half scored it within the context of the episode in which the scene appeared. Should people who watched the show have ignored the context of the scene? Clearly, people were not penalized for scoring it as straight 'serious sci-fi action.' Should those who did watch the show and knew the context of the scene be penalized?

The people who made the show were the judges. They picked a winner that perfectly fit the spirit of the thing they created. This seems very unsurprising to me.

@SzPeti42 I feel for you and hope you have plenty of success in life. I take issue with your point "those who could afford to take a risk or had extra knowledge by having the money to watch the show on HBO seem to have had an unfair advantage." 

The ratio of conventional score to comedic score in the winning group was 50/50. Neither approach was penalized. They liked the comedic version best. It's a subjective judgement. What else do you really expect from a contest?


----------



## poetd

The brief was ALWAYS - score to the program IF YOU WANT - score to it as a standalone media - IF YOU WANT.

Always was.
Mountains out of molehills guys.


----------



## SzPeti42

JoelS said:


> I feel for you and hope you have plenty of success in life. I take issue with your point "those who could afford to take a risk or had extra knowledge by having the money to watch the show on HBO seem to have had an unfair advantage."
> 
> The ratio of conventional score to comedic score in the winning group was 50/50. Neither approach was penalized. They liked the comedic version best. It's a subjective judgement. What else do you really expect from a contest?



First, thank you for your kind words!
Do you have the numbers about this ratio of 50/50? It wasn't my overall experience with the 500 I listened to, but that's still a small number compared to 11000 and I didn't do spreadsheets so I honestly don't know what the real ratio is. That's why I carefully said they "seemed" to have an advantage, not that they actually had. I just tried to explain my emotional thought process throughout, not argue that I'm right. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.


----------



## Banquet

Massive congrats to @David Kudell 

I've seen quite a lot of the competition entries on YouTube over the last few weeks and most were pretty generic. David's entry is not only memorable, but is one of very few that enticed me to keep watching the scene!

I do understand some of the sceptism about whether the music would really have been used in the episode, but the level of crap being posted (and also about the runner up entries) is very depressing. I have a sinking feeling that, whatever the entry was like, much of this drivel would still be posted here.

I haven't the stomach or the time to read every post or YouTube comment but I think David has behaved and responded very honourably throughout. You're a winner David... not just this competition, but in something more important than that... 

Who would enter a competition, eh?


----------



## JT

Congratulations to David! His entry caught the attention of the judges, that's the whole point of a competition like this. He should be very proud. His music made watching the clip more enjoyable for me.


----------



## Primary Target

RonOrchComp said:


> Dude, I posted once (twice?) elsewhere in this thread. You make it sound like I am posting over and over again.
> 
> *lambasteor lam·bast*
> 
> _[ lam-beyst, -bast ]SHOW IPA
> 
> verb (used with object), lam·bast·ed, lam·bast·ing. Informal.
> 
> 1. to beat or whip severely.
> 
> 2.to reprimand or berate harshly; censure; excoriate._
> 
> Yeah, no - that's not what I am doing.
> 
> What I am doing, however, is voicing my opinion. If you don't agee with freedom of expression, then I think you've joined the wrong community.



@Mike Greene made it very clear earlier in the thread that, going forward, this should be only focused on positivity to David and any other questions/thoughts/rants about the Westworld competition should go to the drama zone thread where you can exercise your freedom of expression to your heart's content. (see post #598 for reference)


----------



## Primary Target

Eptesicus said:


> Why did you seemingly post this out of nowhere and not in response to anyone then, after he made that rule?



I've been catching up the thread and saw that it had started to unravel all over again. Just felt right to remind everyone that there's another thread (which I have also participated in) where a lot of this conversation would be far more suited.


----------



## Alex Fraser

dzilizzi said:


> ..and took it as an opportunity to do a straight action score like everyone else. I didn't win.


Absolutely Lizzy.
I didn't enter, but my initial instinct was to go for a straight up action cue. I didn't clock the genre switch and didn't see the subtle tongue in cheek in the scene.

Props to David and to all those others who understood this. I salute you all. 👍


----------



## rt09

I for one hope Ramin blends some 8-bit into the Season 4 soundtack to definitively put this matter to bed. I don't say that as a joke, it could work as David has shown and why not? To date the show has been rather playful with its pop culture references anyway.


----------



## chocobitz825

Listening to David’s score again. Love it more than the original in the show. Looking forward to more from him.


----------



## prodigalson

There seems to be this supreme confidence that the style and tone of the winning entry would NEVER have aired in the show (or be chosen by any director) but it makes me wonder if anyone has actually watched the show? 

There is an entire episode where one of the main characters sees everything in sepia and all the underscore is Herrmanesque, 1940s, film-noir.

Its not actually that big a leap to imagine the producers wanting to make a specific statement by being anachronistic and playing against the action of the scene. All that would be required is a slightly different narrative to justify that choice. But it wouldnt actually be totally out of left field for this show to make that choice.


----------



## Studiodraven

christianhenson said:


> I've been up all night so I could do with a hug, just went a recorded a pretty unintelligible ranting monologue that I probably wont publish and now I'm sitting in a room eating a soft white bread sandwich with Marmalade and a little bit too much butter to try and make the bad go away!


You can NEVER have too much butter.


----------



## rt09

Studiodraven said:


> You can NEVER have too much butter.



My cholesterol levels beg to differ. But luckily they don't get a choice.


----------



## FarleyCZ

Btw @David Kudell that tune of yours from the score definitelly stuck on repeat in my head today. )) Great work, man. Well deserved win!


----------



## JoelS

SzPeti42 said:


> Do you have the numbers about this ratio of 50/50?
> ...
> Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.


Seems I was unclear, myself. I was referring only to the combined runners-up and winner. Three of the runners-up were more conventional hybrid modern action score. Two of the runners-up chose to go with the genre-bent interpretation. Andrew Morgan Smith had a cool Williams/Silvestri action approach, and Oleg Troyanovsky's is like a ballet. You could arguably say Kacper Stachowiac's metal version is embracing the 'genre' theme too, but metal isn't too far off more conventional action scoring. So, within the winning group of six, it's roughly 50/50 depending on how you classify Kacper's track.

It was interesting to listen to the full length versions of all the tracks, not just the trimmed bits from the announcement video.

I think the whole bunch of them were really cool, and showcased how differently this scene could be scored within the context of the show and the conventions of sci-fi.


----------



## h.s.j.e

To add to some of the recent posts highlighting why David's track is so great, I was thinking this morning about some of the complaints or questions raised about it, or about how the judges evaluated it, and thought (foolishly, I'm sure) that it might be helpful to share my thoughts.

I'm not Zimmer, Clouser, etc. Chances are I'm neither as talented nor as experienced as a composer as the folks raising the question, so take my analysis in that context. I can be a pretty cogent analyst, though, so FWIW, here's why the judge's decision makes sense to me:

1. The "genre" question
We're supposed to move abruptly and jarringly from a score more directly in the modern tradition into a "genre" switch that fits the cartoonish cinematic violence of the guided missile and the SUV explosions. All the better if we also get a window into Caleb (Aaron Paul)'s bewilderment. The original soundtrack is the Wagner piece itself a delightfully florid (with all due respect to Wagner's genius) piece of musical drama, chosen as a "punch right square on your nose" reference to how Apocalypse Now used the piece.

Some folks didn't bother about the genre switch at all. Lots of folks, like me, chose to emulate that genre switch by writing either knock-off Wagner or knock-off 80's action cues to match the Apocalypse Now genre. In retrospect, that's a losing move if you're not Wagner or a successful 80's-era composer. David didn't try that. He realized that the visuals of an oversaturated futuristic car-chase with over-the-top pyrotechnics and "point-and-shoot" mechanics could work as 8-bit video game. More subtly, it's a "right square on your nose" reference to another cultural touchstone that lots of people will instantly recognize - 8-bit video games. In other words, it's a reference that's arguably as obvious as the reference in the original episode, but also makes sense out of Caleb's perceptions of what's happening.

2. Scoring (emphasis/mood/storytelling)
If you're watching the other characters experience a car chase in a modern cinematic setting, and Caleb experience the same thing as an arcade game, the back-and-forth makes perfect sense. David's choices of sound, theme and hitpoints all focus me on Caleb's experience and his character's distorted sense of reality.

3. Compositional craft
Musically, David chose a theme subtly reminiscent of the brass theme in _Ride of the Valkyries _(I thought it was, at least. Could be wrong), which works effectively in both 8-bit and orchestral settings, and across a range of dynamics. That's—to me—why it works so well when the orchestral and 8bit come together to simulate the triumphant completion of a video game level, all the way down to the juxtaposition of a climactic emotional moment from the orchestra and a buzzy little congratulatory phrase in 8-bit.

I'm not saying this is a definitive analysis of either the episode or David's creative choices, but it's a large part of why I personally, in my own subjective way, think David's entry is so clearly deserving of the top prize.


----------



## chocobitz825

h.s.j.e said:


> To add to some of the recent posts highlighting why David's track is so great, I was thinking this morning about some of the complaints or questions raised about it, or about how the judges evaluated it, and thought (foolishly, I'm sure) that it might be helpful to share my thoughts.
> 
> I'm not Zimmer, Clouser, etc. Chances are I'm neither as talented nor as experienced as a composer as the folks raising the question, so take my analysis in that context. I can be a pretty cogent analyst, though, so FWIW, here's why the judge's decision makes sense to me:
> 
> 1. The "genre" question
> We're supposed to move abruptly and jarringly from a score more directly in the modern tradition into a "genre" switch that fits the cartoonish cinematic violence of the guided missile and the SUV explosions. All the better if we also get a window into Caleb (Aaron Paul)'s bewilderment. The original soundtrack is the Wagner piece itself a delightfully florid (with all due respect to Wagner's genius) piece of musical drama, chosen as a "punch right square on your nose" reference to how Apocalypse Now used the piece.
> 
> Some folks didn't bother about the genre switch at all. Lots of folks, like me, chose to emulate that genre switch by writing either knock-off Wagner or knock-off 80's action cues to match the Apocalypse Now genre. In retrospect, that's a losing move if you're not Wagner or a successful 80's-era composer. David didn't try that. He realized that the visuals of an oversaturated futuristic car-chase with over-the-top pyrotechnics and "point-and-shoot" mechanics could work as 8-bit video game. More subtly, it's a "right square on your nose" reference to another cultural touchstone that lots of people will instantly recognize - 8-bit video games. In other words, it's a reference that's arguably as obvious as the reference in the original episode, but also makes sense out of Caleb's perceptions of what's happening.
> 
> 2. Scoring (emphasis/mood/storytelling)
> If you're watching the other characters experience a car chase in a modern cinematic setting, and Caleb experience the same thing as an arcade game, the back-and-forth makes perfect sense. David's choices of sound, theme and hitpoints all focus me on Caleb's experience and his character's distorted sense of reality.
> 
> 3. Compositional craft
> Musically, David chose a theme subtly reminiscent of the brass theme in _Ride of the Valkyries _(I thought it was, at least. Could be wrong), which works effectively in both 8-bit and orchestral settings, and across a range of dynamics. That's—to me—why it works so well when the orchestral and 8bit come together to simulate the triumphant completion of a video game level, all the way down to the juxtaposition of a climactic emotional moment from the orchestra and a buzzy little congratulatory phrase in 8-bit.
> 
> I'm not saying this is a definitive analysis of either the episode or David's creative choices, but it's a large part of why I personally, in my own subjective way, think David's entry is so clearly deserving of the top prize.




Not to mention, the motifs are brilliantly applied and are easy to recall. I could sing this whole thing back in my head. The Action motif, into the trouble motif, into the tension motif...and the cross between 8-bit and orchestral is fantastic. I wish I could get the audio alone to studio such great application motifs. Something I am not at all as strong in.


----------



## Dirtgrain

Alex Fraser said:


> I didn't enter, but my initial instinct was to go for a straight up action cue. I didn't clock the genre switch and didn't see the subtle tongue in cheek in the scene.



Again, props to David on his score--pro quality through and through. 

I suppose if you were scoring for a director, he or she would tell you more regarding what would be desired for the genre switch--as opposed to keeping it on the down low for one to figure out. I imagine there were so many quality scores submitted that clocking the genre switch was a significant difference maker. 

I teach students how to write college application essays, and making such an essay distinct, noteworthy and memorable is key. Damn it if I didn't have the chiptune melody playing in my head last night when I couldn't sleep. I did not hear any of the other entries playing in my head.

Regarding the person who asked if this might legitimately be used in the actual show, I did so address this earlier--it could: https://vi-control.net/community/th...d-winner-announced.95160/page-28#post-4587001


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

FarleyCZ said:


> Come on, guys. Just a reminder. There was 11,000 submissions. They had to pick one. Whatever they would pick, it would upset anyone that wouldn't share the point of view that the particular composer had. Don't be entitled. You're not a bad composer just because you haven't been picked in a massive world wide competition.



You nailed it. It's just human nature....and no matter who had won, it would be the usual lynch mob casting their complaints. What I see mostly though, is the community camaraderie. Just like any other "sport". Anyone who's complaining about this should take a step back and look in the mirror, as they obviously have some sort of insecurity issues or something. We need to celebrate David's success (and the other winners, of course).


----------



## Shagal

I just learned about what ever happened here and I‘m in rage mode!!!
This was all rigged!
Take the winners name and switch the first two letters to B and D and the last three to W, Z and K, what do you get? Yeah right!!!
JJ Abrams Pornhub password!

Spitfire there you have it, I burnt all the freebie libraries I bought from you! And a taco, which was an accident though...

Now get outta my way, there‘s a gameboy sale at walmart going on!!


----------



## Eptesicus

Shagal said:


> Take the winners name and switch the first two letters to B and D and the last three to W, Z and K, what do you get? Yeah right!!!
> JJ Abrams Pornhub password!



Just tried it...didn't work.

Wait... i mean, what's Pornhub?


----------



## ccarreira

I think the surprise here is that the winner presented a style of music Spitfire products does not promote. Maybe Spitfire learn something with this, because they are to conservative with their products, like they are afraid that some kind of innovation might be a blasphemy that offend some. I feel Spitfire try to transmit a "this is not a toy" brand image, with a couple exceptions. Many times, when experimenting with Spitfire libraries, I felt a lot of opportunities for crazy new stuff where missed. And thats why this winner surprises, because everyone were expecting something more classic.


----------



## curtisschweitzer

Brambleclaw said:


> They weren't looking for a well scored sequence fitting the atmosphere and climate of the show. They were not looking for something that brings out the story and heightens all of the emotions being conveyed in the picture.



Except for David's piece _is_ a well-scored sequence that _does_ fit the atmosphere and climate of the show (particularly this sequence) that brings out the story and emotions as well (if not better) than the Wagner excerpt that was used in the original. And does so with flair, originality, and not a small quantity of cleverness and humor. 

I get that there is disagreement on how well people feel the winning piece accomplished the above goals, but the only "right" opinion _is the one of the show's creators_-- who, it turns out, judged the contest. You might disagree with their decision, but its the only one that matters. 

Welcome to the film/tv/game industry.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Gh


Brambleclaw said:


> People saw big names for the Judges, and then they saw the judges treat the competition like a joke. That is why people are mad.


Speaking of the big name judges, I'd be genuinely curious to know if David heard from them since winning. Even a small "congratulations!" email.


----------



## dannymc

Jaap said:


> Well what I really liked about David his entry is that is it inspires again to take a new approach.
> 
> In the end I couldn't make it due to a lack of time by finishing off my entry, but still planning to continue to work on it for fun and learning and watched Davids submission again gets me inspired again to try and think out of the box for this clip, so a big thanks David for this great learning experience as well!



completely agree with you Jaap. i found it so inspiring that something so non-formulaic and so far out of left field could take the top price. i think it takes balls and bravely to step outside whats expected. Any true creator would see this as "yes, there is still room to continue to experiment and explore the world of music and sound combination". in my opinion music is always about the emotional journey it takes you on, and each journey is always unique when written by a different composer. the emotional journey this traditional subtle action scene morphing into this 8-bit world took me on was something i had not experienced before and it make me smile with enjoyment. we in the VI world should appreciate more than anyone that its not about having access to a $5000 Orchestra to achieve enjoyable and inspiring music and instead appreciate if done the right way, really enjoyable art can be created using an 8-bit machine.

if i wanted to inspire the next generation of young kids to keep on inventing and experimenting with music and sound, this would be the entry i would show them. no rules no limits, just simply music. 

so i say David Congratulations well deserved. 

Danny


----------



## Stringtree

Christian's "Salty Sea Dog" video on his channel is well-tempered anguish. At the same time, he continues in this episode an unbroken track record of generously sharing, keeping positive, and providing inspiration. Without any sleep or otherwise, that's impressive. No visible empties.

Quirky piece by David won. Didn't see it coming. Happens at county fairs, art shows, beauty contests, talent shows, cooking competitions. Tastes differ. Nothing but congratulations to David.

Imagine this kind of vitriol levied against a sugary soda maker after somebody won a song contest. 

A frustrated but resolute guy on a mountain, or his partner in a studio responding. The soda company would tell you to go blow, here's a coupon.

Think about it. What amazing times, and what an incredibly accessible and responsive company. 

As for me, my admiration for Spitfire is unalloyed. There might be better ways to discuss David's work. He genuinely has been receptive to conversation.


----------



## David Kudell

h.s.j.e said:


> To add to some of the recent posts highlighting why David's track is so great, I was thinking this morning about some of the complaints or questions raised about it, or about how the judges evaluated it, and thought (foolishly, I'm sure) that it might be helpful to share my thoughts.
> 
> I'm not Zimmer, Clouser, etc. Chances are I'm neither as talented nor as experienced as a composer as the folks raising the question, so take my analysis in that context. I can be a pretty cogent analyst, though, so FWIW, here's why the judge's decision makes sense to me:
> 
> 1. The "genre" question
> We're supposed to move abruptly and jarringly from a score more directly in the modern tradition into a "genre" switch that fits the cartoonish cinematic violence of the guided missile and the SUV explosions. All the better if we also get a window into Caleb (Aaron Paul)'s bewilderment. The original soundtrack is the Wagner piece itself a delightfully florid (with all due respect to Wagner's genius) piece of musical drama, chosen as a "punch right square on your nose" reference to how Apocalypse Now used the piece.
> 
> Some folks didn't bother about the genre switch at all. Lots of folks, like me, chose to emulate that genre switch by writing either knock-off Wagner or knock-off 80's action cues to match the Apocalypse Now genre. In retrospect, that's a losing move if you're not Wagner or a successful 80's-era composer. David didn't try that. He realized that the visuals of an oversaturated futuristic car-chase with over-the-top pyrotechnics and "point-and-shoot" mechanics could work as 8-bit video game. More subtly, it's a "right square on your nose" reference to another cultural touchstone that lots of people will instantly recognize - 8-bit video games. In other words, it's a reference that's arguably as obvious as the reference in the original episode, but also makes sense out of Caleb's perceptions of what's happening.
> 
> 2. Scoring (emphasis/mood/storytelling)
> If you're watching the other characters experience a car chase in a modern cinematic setting, and Caleb experience the same thing as an arcade game, the back-and-forth makes perfect sense. David's choices of sound, theme and hitpoints all focus me on Caleb's experience and his character's distorted sense of reality.
> 
> 3. Compositional craft
> Musically, David chose a theme subtly reminiscent of the brass theme in _Ride of the Valkyries _(I thought it was, at least. Could be wrong), which works effectively in both 8-bit and orchestral settings, and across a range of dynamics. That's—to me—why it works so well when the orchestral and 8bit come together to simulate the triumphant completion of a video game level, all the way down to the juxtaposition of a climactic emotional moment from the orchestra and a buzzy little congratulatory phrase in 8-bit.
> 
> I'm not saying this is a definitive analysis of either the episode or David's creative choices, but it's a large part of why I personally, in my own subjective way, think David's entry is so clearly deserving of the top prize.



A very thoughtful analysis! Thank you! 

I want to share my thought process behind my score, because I did put a lot of thought into it. I also want to tell a little bit about my story, because the idea that I'm an industry veteran or a working composer couldn't be further than the truth. Though I started writing music at age 15 I gave up on it many times because I never really had the courage to share it. I'll post a little video on YouTube, along with a little walkthrough for anyone interested.


----------



## tosvus

Congrats David, well deserved win!


----------



## tosvus

David Kudell said:


> A very thoughtful analysis! Thank you!
> 
> I want to share my thought process behind my score, because I did put a lot of thought into it. I also want to tell a little bit about my story, because the idea that I'm an industry veteran or a working composer couldn't be further than the truth. Though I started writing music at age 15 I gave up on it many times because I never really had the courage to share it. I'll post a little video on YouTube, along with a little walkthrough for anyone interested.



Looking forward to seeing that!


----------



## PeterJCroissant

@David Kudell Me and my Wife watched it with a smile, really really enjoyed it. I wish I was brave and good enough to have thought of that my self. good for you. You clearly have a skill, the crossing over of the orchestral to "game boy" elements was very well done, and both me and my wife were singing the main melody all bloody evening! 

good luck!

Pete


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## Headlands

Congratulations on the win -- it's an unusual and highly original score, which is more than I can say for the majority of scoring I hear these days.


----------



## D1scostu

David Kudell said:


> Thanks to everyone for listening, I appreciate the support! I'm glad to be part of this community at VI-Control. I am fine with criticism, that goes with the territory.
> 
> As a fan of the show, I remember watching this episode of Westworld before the competition and thinking how wild the genre switches were. So I didn't think my take was all that out there if you've seen the show. They already used Valkyries, which was a sign that a traditional action score wasn't what they were looking for.
> 
> Also, in Season 1 & 2 of Westworld, a couple episodes used a brilliant orchestral cover of the Rolling Stones "Paint it Black" in the shootout scenes! So I knew that there was a history of playfulness in the music choices in the show.



Hi David

At first I was a bit taken back by the decision but after reading your remarks and feedback as to why you chose the style you did, I have to say it does make sense, particularly when the whole episode is watched in entirety. I think a lot of the backlash that has aired isn’t aimed at you directly but more with the judging process. I think many haven’t had access to the whole episode (particularly over here in the UK) and so scored the scene kind of in the dark. As a result when they saw such a different composition triumph they wanted answers as to why this happened. I guess when that didn’t happen people came to their own conclusions etc. Anyway, that’s my take on it. Congrats dude enjoy your success.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

D1scostu said:


> Hi David
> 
> At first I was a bit taken back by the decision but after reading your remarks and feedback as to why you chose the style you did, I have to say it does make sense, particularly when the whole episode is watched in entirety. I think a lot of the backlash that has aired isn’t aimed at you directly but more with the judging process. I think many haven’t had access to the whole episode (particularly over here in the UK) and so scored the scene kind of in the dark. As a result when they saw such a different composition triumph they wanted answers as to why this happened. I guess when that didn’t happen people came to their own conclusions etc. Anyway, that’s my take on it. Congrats dude enjoy your success.



Kind of a silly reason for those people to be upset, considering the contest clearly stated that the music didn’t need to fit in with the show’s musical tone whatsoever.


----------



## Leslie Fuller

FarleyCZ said:


> Btw @David Kudell that tune of yours from the score definitelly stuck on repeat in my head today. )) Great work, man. Well deserved win!



Yes! Though I’m still not 100% on the 8-bit sounds used, David wrote a damn catchy tune!


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## anitasound

"...but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me." 

Well said... that is the essence of it. You nailed it beautifully, the same way you do when you're scoring for picture. Thank you for all the joy and passion you bring into the process. I have learned much from your music and from the spirit you infuse it with.


----------



## dcoscina

David Kudell said:


> A very thoughtful analysis! Thank you!
> 
> I want to share my thought process behind my score, because I did put a lot of thought into it. I also want to tell a little bit about my story, because the idea that I'm an industry veteran or a working composer couldn't be further than the truth. Though I started writing music at age 15 I gave up on it many times because I never really had the courage to share it. I'll post a little video on YouTube, along with a little walkthrough for anyone interested.


Unless you are genuinely wanting to share you methodology, I hope you don't feel compelled to do this for the sake of those who disparaged your entry. You owe them nothing. 

Enjoy the win! Celebrate its success with your friends and family. Make more terrific music with the Spitfire HD (curious about your thoughts on BBCSO which I like quite a lot). And pay no mind to the haters. They won't get far in life with that attitude.


----------



## Dan Owitch

Hey David, We all want to know what the prop of the set will be. Will you share it with us? :D


----------



## rt09

Dan Owitch said:


> Hey David, We all want to know what the prop of the set will be. Will you share it with us? :D



Please do share!

I'm guessing one of the cool guns from the scene. If it were me, I'd push my luck and drop subtle hints that I also wanted the LeMat the Man in Black carries around, lol.


----------



## h.s.j.e

Dan Owitch said:


> Hey David, We all want to know what the prop of the set will be. Will you share it with us? :D


David "Grenade Launcher" Kudell.


----------



## Jacob Fanto

Dan Owitch said:


> Hey David, We all want to know what the prop of the set will be. Will you share it with us? :D


I think they should just gift David the car from the chase scene so that he can make badboy lane changes 5 miles above the speed limit in style.


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## David Kudell

They haven’t said what the prop will be yet, which is great because it’ll be a surprise. I will post what it is.

Anything will be neat, but who would say no to a self-driving, explosive, target-intercepting motorcycle?


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## Uncle Peter

Late to this party - but for me, Andrew Morgan Smith's was the best (out of the clips shown). It had a Silvestri 'Back To The Future' vibe which really enhanced the visuals


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## Unsub

David Kudell said:


> They haven’t said what the prop will be yet, which is great because it’ll be a surprise. I will post what it is.
> 
> Anything will be neat, but who would say no to a self-driving, explosive, target-intercepting motorcycle?


At least you will know the commands! AWSOME track dude !


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## Eptesicus

David Kudell said:


> They haven’t said what the prop will be yet, which is great because it’ll be a surprise. I will post what it is.
> 
> Anything will be neat, but who would say no to a self-driving, explosive, target-intercepting motorcycle?



I wonder if they ever made a life size model of the riot control bot?







Imagine taking delivery of that! Might be tricky to find a place to store it though...


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## Unsub

Love to see the neighbors complain though 😎


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## NoOneKnowsAnything

Congratulations, David 🎈🎊🍾🎉 I cannot imagine watching and listening to 11,000 cues of anything without going mad. Perhaps this is exactly why David won since his cue put a smile 😃 on my face and made me LOL 😝 when I heard it.

I’m guessing no one wrote anything remotely close to the old video game style music David scored so his music probably really stood out and was easily rememorable. Was it appropriate for Westworld? Absolutely not, but it’s a contest not an audition for a tv show. Will David become an A-list film/tv composer? Probably not, since that’s about luck more than anything. However, Spitfire Audio libraries are spectacularly good so he just got $10,000 worth of a top VI library collection from one of the best companies.

I’m stunned that 11,000 people entered this contest. I would have thought maybe 200 people would enter not 11,000!!! That’s insane!!!

There is no way every entry got listened to by any judge. I would assume that maybe 11 people listened to 1,000 entries each and maybe most cues got listened to for 2-4 seconds at most. I’m not suggesting the judges did not have good intentions at all they probably did at first, but any normal human being will listen to maybe a couple dozen full scenes, then start listening to and watching maybe a partial amount of a couple dozen more scene entries then realize the lunacy of having to go thru 950 more entries is maddening so and at that point you probably have 2-4 seconds of viewing time to see if they would watch the full scene which I guess did not happen often. Not because of a lack of talent either, but this task would simply be way too overwhelming for anyone to deal with, so it turns into a “I Can Name That Tune in 3 notes“ judging process sort of experience. That’s also probably why David won. Most people probably scored a more conventional cue whereas David did not. 

I assume the judges assumed that maybe they would get a couple hundred entries at best. When they realized they got 11,000 entries they must have fainted. Even if each judge had two interns judge 500 entries each, no one is watching 500 entries!!! It’s just way too many. It’s fantastic so many people entered into this contest, that alone is remarkable!!!


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## MusiquedeReve

Congratulations!!!

I am absolutely loving all the haters posting YouTube reaction videos to our fellow forum member winning the Spitfire WW competition


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## NoOneKnowsAnything

EpicEsquire said:


> Congratulations!!!
> 
> I am absolutely loving all the haters posting YouTube reaction videos to our fellow forum member winning the Spitfire WW competition


People are actually posting YouTube reaction videos? I have not seen any.


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## chocobitz825

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> People are actually posting YouTube reaction videos? I have not seen any.



i just spotted some today...its pretty pathetic really...


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## Michael Stibor

<DELETED>


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## chocobitz825

Michael Stibor said:


> Pathetic? What makes it automatically pathetic? I saw one today that was very fair and _addressed_ the controversy, more than take a side. Maybe it’s only pathetic if you disagree with it?



An analysis of the piece is great conversation. the common tone however is "spitfire really screwed the pooch here y'all! we were cheated!"

it a common problem with the business of music. Too many people are confident that they're so brilliant and entitled to appreciation and recognition. There shouldn't be controversy about this. If you didn't win, you didn't make the composition that was chosen. That's it. It doesn't mean anyone was better or worse or more or less deserving of the win. The conspiracy theories and constant attempts to try and prove how spitfire got their own opinions wrong are just ridiculous and its a waste of time. even worse that these people feel that somehow they can use this for self-promotion on their youtube channels to pander to the naysayers. we can agree to disagree but there is no way anyone is going to prove that there was some conspiracy, cheating, or that spitfire got their own standard wrong.


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## Jeremy Spencer

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I assume the judges assumed that maybe they would get a couple hundred entries at best. When they realized they got 11,000 entries they must have fainted. Even if each judge had two interns judge 500 entries each, no one is watching 500 entries!!! It’s just way too many. It’s fantastic so many people entered into this contest, that alone is remarkable!!!



I’m by no means doubting that 11,000 entries were listened to in their entirety. Paul himself send said he watched at least 500. However, even if they did, think of the fatigue, it would all start sounding monotonous after a dozen or so.


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## chocobitz825

Wolfie2112 said:


> I’m by no means doubting that 11,000 entries were listened to in their entirety. Paul himself send said he watched at least 500. However, even if they did, think of the fatigue, it would all start sounding monotonous after a dozen or so.



more reason why the standouts stand out. As someone who has had to review thousands of songs every quarter, you start to hear the similarities in a lot of pieces to the point where only the really unique ones actually hit your ear.


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## MusiquedeReve

A number of reaction videos were fair while others were posted by composers that had been overcome with "the vapors" upon a non-traditional composition winning 

Gatekeeping at its finest


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## classified_the_x

I had to sleep to realize how out of place and absurd the whole whining about the winner of the contest was. First thing I thought in the morning... 

But this is also how like some important people are reacting to the protesters, regarding the Westworld winner:


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## chocobitz825

If I could take a moment to praise David's work. After listening to a bunch of other compositions, there were some really great works out there, but there are some points were David really stands out.

the 20-second introduction of the 8bit is a bit odd in the mix, but its transition into the chase theme is great because this theme seems to really tell the story from Delores's perspective as the woman with a plan. The theme kicks in many times when she's giving commands, and preparing her weapons in the fight, leading us to believe she's in control.

meanwhile, when the 8bit elements kick back in, it shows the story from Caleb's perspective and how he sees the happenings of the chase as wins and fails in a video game genre. This works well with Aaron paul's drugged out performance that shows how he's not quite sure of whats going on in his reality becuase of the genre drug he's on.

David uses this really great tense shorts melody when their plans don't seem to be working, or when the missile misses, or we're seeing the motorbike come into play. These common themes come in and out at really well thought out places to tell different parts of the story. The leadup to the final standoff is something i didn't see many other people really build up to. Many people really sold a car chase, but not the idea that there was an up and down to who was in control during this chase. David's finale really sells the idea that even though Caleb was tripping balls, Delores always knew what she was doing, and that the heroes were going to win the day.

well, just my two cents anyway. I'd love to hear more open constructive discussion of what did and didn't work here for this and other compositions. It's all really great study.


----------



## David Kudell

chocobitz825 said:


> If I could take a moment to praise David's work. After listening to a bunch of other compositions, there were some really great works out there, but there are some points were David really stands out.
> 
> the 20-second introduction of the 8bit is a bit odd in the mix, but its transition into the chase theme is great because this theme seems to really tell the story from Delores's perspective as the woman with a plan. The theme kicks in many times when she's giving commands, and preparing her weapons in the fight, leading us to believe she's in control.
> 
> meanwhile, when the 8bit elements kick back in, it shows the story from Caleb's perspective and how he sees the happenings of the chase as wins and fails in a video game genre. This works well with Aaron paul's drugged out performance that shows how he's not quite sure of whats going on in his reality becuase of the genre drug he's on.
> 
> David uses this really great tense shorts melody when their plans don't seem to be working, or when the missile misses, or we're seeing the motorbike come into play. These common themes come in and out at really well thought out places to tell different parts of the story. The leadup to the final standoff is something i didn't see many other people really build up to. Many people really sold a car chase, but not the idea that there was an up and down to who was in control during this chase. David's finale really sells the idea that even though Caleb was tripping balls, Delores always knew what she was doing, and that the heroes were going to win the day.
> 
> well, just my two cents anyway. I'd love to hear more open constructive discussion of what did and didn't work here for this and other compositions. It's all really great study.


Great analysis! Interesting thought about Delores! I really scored this scene from Caleb's point of view, as he's the one "in the game" but I suppose you're right in that what I call the "heroic theme" introduced with the 8bit is really a shared perspective for both. 

You also identified the other major theme (what I call the "boss battle theme" along with the motorcycle build-up which is a modified heroic theme but with minor chords. But I don't want to give away too much, it's fun to read people's analysis.


----------



## chocobitz825

David Kudell said:


> Great analysis! Interesting thought about Delores! I really scored this scene from Caleb's point of view, as he's the one "in the game" but I suppose you're right in that what I call the "heroic theme" introduced with the 8bit is really a shared perspective for both.
> 
> You also identified the other major theme (what I call the "boss battle theme" along with the motorcycle build-up which is a modified heroic theme but with minor chords. But I don't want to give away too much, it's fun to read people's analysis.



That’s very interesting to hear because your hero theme often comes up right when Delores is directing the next step of the plan. I also noticed that the 8bit parts blend with the orchesteal elements right when the focus moves from caleb’s actions to Delores’. I suppose that could be caleb’s perception of her direction and it feeling incredibly heroic. That works great with Aaron’s acting since he’s so stoned and doesn’t really seem to be caught up with her plan.

The boss battle build up is absolutely the part I didn’t hear from so many other compositions and it really shifted the tone of the entire chase. Where many others prolonged the tension of the chase to make it seem like the heroes might not make it out, your score gave me the perspective that Delores set a carefully orchestrated trap and executed it perfectly at the final stand.


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## Keith Theodosiou

I may as well have my say which is my opinion.

First of all, congrats to the winner and runners up of this competition!

For me, this was never about winning. I knew from the start that the competition was going to be fierce and it certainly was lol
11,000 entrants! And there's me thinking it was going to be around 500/600 lol.

I didn't watch Westworld at all and the first clip i did see of it was this car chase scene.
So i sat at my keyboard and started writing to picture as you do. I did a typical deadly car chase dramatic cue.
So, basically i didn't really use my imagination, i just did basic car chase music.
I was very happy with what i had created and posted to YouTube.

I can't say that i wasn't shocked by the winning piece but at the end of the day, fair play to David for using his imagination and creating something that stood out and was noticed.

One thing i will say is the standard of all the entrants was extremely high so well done to everyone for really giving it all you got!

The bottom line is we are ALL winners. We all got to showcase our talents in a very high profile competition and we ALL learnt something here weather you liked the outcome or not.

When you enter a contest, you do your best and hope. The judges decide the runners up and winner on what they felt was the best they saw or heard.
As a contestant, you have to accept that decision.

Learn then try again in the future.
I hope what i said makes sense.


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## Unsub

Hi everyone

i am new to this forum but was a young police officer when video killed the radio star and science was weird. I fell into love with techno and the original rave scene bought a korg triton left the police and headed to Ibiza. I must have made thousands of tracks and never sold one. I however still get the best buzz of my life when someone stumbles across on on soundcloud and simply listens. I am clinically compelled to turn out music so I am delighted to have finally found this support group With fellow addicts.

the world is tearing itself apart right now and needs muso types more than ever. Punk was revolutionary because it broke the rules, may we all live in love for the compulsions we have

love


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## Nicholas

Gotta admit... I felt a bit trolled at first. But after digging in deeper into Westworld and rewatching it I think David really did an amazing job. And anyone who’s offending him (especially his person, not even the music itself) should be ashamed and is, imo, not ready for the industry. That said, I don’t know anything about the industry, I didn’t even enter because I thought I wasn’t good enough. But I guess Hans said everything there is to say, so... 

tl;dr: congrats David! I wouldn’t have had the guts to submit an entry like yours. Really cool and definitely an inspiration to me.


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## Zedcars

Can’t we all just kiss and make up?


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## Lassi Tani

Congrats to David, a great entry, put a smile on my face! 

I haven't followed the discussion much, but I read from somewhere that the piece went against the rules, e.g. changing the original sounds. So the rules weren't strict? Isn't it a bit unfair, when others have followed the rules of the competition? I think the competition instructions should have noted that the rules are not strict.


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## chocobitz825

Zedcars said:


> Can’t we all just kiss and make up?





sekkosiki said:


> Congrats to David, a great entry, put a smile on my face!
> 
> I haven't followed the discussion much, but I read from somewhere that the piece went against the rules, e.g. changing the original sounds. So the rules weren't strict? Isn't it a bit unfair, when others have followed the rules of the competition?



Is the assumption that, if that were the case, the sounds were the reason he won?


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## Lassi Tani

chocobitz825 said:


> Is the assumption that, if that were the case, the sounds were the reason he won?



Not at all, he won because of his great entry. Going against rules is another matter.


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## chocobitz825

sekkosiki said:


> Not at all, he won because of his great entry. Going against rules is another matter.



I guess this is difficult to judge because I cant find copies of the official rules..just allegations that they werent followed...I also dont know if there were any guidelines that said breaking the "rules" would lead to disqualification. So I mean again, even if he did use other sounds, what does that matter in the end? would others be saying that had they known they could use sounds that would have gotten them closer to winning? it seems like a distraction from his composition.


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## Keith Theodosiou

I did say this on another forum but i will say it again here.

I really do hope all the negativity surrounding this competition doesn't dissuade Spitfire Audio from creating a competition in the future.

That would be a big shame.

I look forward to these contests cos not only does it better me as a composer pitting my wits against other composers but there is a chance that one day, someone may listen to what i did and want to contact me. 
Maybe it's a bit late for me anyway but that could happen to any composer that puts their music out in these competitions.

Don't enter a contest thinking you're going to win, just enter for that little bit of exposure and enjoy what you create for others to hear.


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## Eptesicus

Zedcars said:


> Can’t we all just kiss and make up?


----------



## michalioz

chocobitz825 said:


> In scoring competitions, dare to be a *bit* more unique.



I see what you did there :D


----------



## Lassi Tani

chocobitz825 said:


> I guess this is difficult to judge because I cant find copies of the official rules..just allegations that they werent followed...I also dont know if there were any guidelines that said breaking the "rules" would lead to disqualification. So I mean again, even if he did use other sounds, what does that matter in the end? would others be saying that had they known they could use sounds that would have gotten them closer to winning? it seems like a distraction from his composition.



https://web.archive.org/web/20200507065857/https://www.spitfireaudio.com/westworld/terms-and-conditions/



> "As between you and HBO, HBO retains all right, title and interest in and to the Westworld Clip. HBO grants you a limited license to use the Westworld Clip solely to create your entry and for no other purpose. You may not modify the Westworld Clip in any way."





> "Spitfire reserves the right to verify the eligibility of all entrants.
> Spitfire reserves the right to disqualify any entrant if it has reasonable grounds to believe the entrant has breached any of the Rules.
> In the event of any dispute regarding the Rules, conduct, results and all other matters relating to a Competition, the decision of Spitfire shall be final, and no correspondence or discussion shall be entered into."



So the original clip was not allowed to be modified, but Spitfire reserves all rights to disqualify. Thus it was up to them whether to disqualify or not.


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## FinGael

Keith Theodosiou said:


> I really do hope all the negativity surrounding this competition doesn't dissuade Spitfire Audio from creating a competition in the future.



I thought that it would be nice to have another competition like this in the future, but even without the negativity that followed, it would be challenging to organize such, because the amount of entries was so huge.

I guessed the amount of entries would be something like 300-500. But 11000. Huh. I would not wish, even for my worst enemy (I thankfully think such does not even exist), to have to use their precious and limited time to listen to 500 entries of the same several minute long clip.


----------



## Zedcars

FinGael said:


> I thought that it would be nice to have another competition like this in the future, but even without the negativity that followed, it would be challenging to organize such, because the amount of entries was so huge.
> 
> I guessed the amount of entries would be something like 300-500. But 11000. Huh. I would not wish, even for my worst enemy (I thankfully think such does not even exist), to have to use their precious and limited time to listen to 500 entries of the same several minute long clip.


Sound is used as a form of “no touch” torture by the US military. The following is a quote from an article about the psychological effects of pure noise:


*Sound Torture During The Iraqi War*
After details emerged regarding the U.S. military’s use of torture during the Iraqi War, common methods of physical torture, including “waterboarding,” hooding, and physical abuse, came under immense national and global scrutiny. The use of torture remains a widely debated issue when it comes to the treatment of military detainees. Music torture is currently banned by the United National Convention Against Torture, but it is still permitted under U.S. law.

Errol Morris’s 2008 documentary “Standard Operating Procedure” focused on abuse and torture of prisoners at the Abu Gharib prison in 2003 by U.S. soldiers. A clip from the film features a U.S. soldier explaining the use of deafening music to have a psychological impact on prisoners of war.




*How Sound Torture Works*
Certain interrogation reports highlight the use of loud music reaching upward of 79 decibels for weeks and even months. Heavy metal music, such as Metallica’s “Enter Sandman,” Rage Against the Machine’s “Killing in the Name Of,” and Deicide’s “Fuck Your God,” often ends up on the CIA’s “torture playlist.” However, the most popular song used to torture prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and other detention centers in Iraq or Afghanistan was “I Love You” by Barney the Purple Dinosaur.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

Zedcars said:


> Sound is used as a form of “no touch” torture by the US military. The following is a quote from an article about the psychological effects of pure noise:
> 
> 
> *Sound Torture During The Iraqi War*
> After details emerged regarding the U.S. military’s use of torture during the Iraqi War, common methods of physical torture, including “waterboarding,” hooding, and physical abuse, came under immense national and global scrutiny. The use of torture remains a widely debated issue when it comes to the treatment of military detainees. Music torture is currently banned by the United National Convention Against Torture, but it is still permitted under U.S. law.
> 
> Errol Morris’s 2008 documentary “Standard Operating Procedure” focused on abuse and torture of prisoners at the Abu Gharib prison in 2003 by U.S. soldiers. A clip from the film features a U.S. soldier explaining the use of deafening music to have a psychological impact on prisoners of war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *How Sound Torture Works*
> Certain interrogation reports highlight the use of loud music reaching upward of 79 decibels for weeks and even months. Heavy metal music, such as Metallica’s “Enter Sandman,” Rage Against the Machine’s “Killing in the Name Of,” and Deicide’s “Fuck Your God,” often ends up on the CIA’s “torture playlist.” However, the most popular song used to torture prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and other detention centers in Iraq or Afghanistan was “I Love You” by Barney the Purple Dinosaur.




Good career opportunity! I should sell my music to the U.S. military, it'll fit right in.


----------



## FinGael

Zedcars said:


> Sound is used as a form of “no touch” torture by the US military. The following is a quote from an article about the psychological effects of pure noise:
> 
> 
> *Sound Torture During The Iraqi War*
> After details emerged regarding the U.S. military’s use of torture during the Iraqi War, common methods of physical torture, including “waterboarding,” hooding, and physical abuse, came under immense national and global scrutiny. The use of torture remains a widely debated issue when it comes to the treatment of military detainees. Music torture is currently banned by the United National Convention Against Torture, but it is still permitted under U.S. law.
> 
> Errol Morris’s 2008 documentary “Standard Operating Procedure” focused on abuse and torture of prisoners at the Abu Gharib prison in 2003 by U.S. soldiers. A clip from the film features a U.S. soldier explaining the use of deafening music to have a psychological impact on prisoners of war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *How Sound Torture Works*
> Certain interrogation reports highlight the use of loud music reaching upward of 79 decibels for weeks and even months. Heavy metal music, such as Metallica’s “Enter Sandman,” Rage Against the Machine’s “Killing in the Name Of,” and Deicide’s “Fuck Your God,” often ends up on the CIA’s “torture playlist.” However, the most popular song used to torture prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and other detention centers in Iraq or Afghanistan was “I Love You” by Barney the Purple Dinosaur.




Thank you for sharing. I have read something about it in the past.


----------



## Kent

chocobitz825 said:


> I think they didn’t know this is what they wanted until they heard it. A bunch of people got caught up thinking this completion was a job hunt, instead of a competition for creative fun. Now they feel cheated because many of them got stuck in a box they made for themselves.


I think you're dead-on!


----------



## FinGael

Bobby Green 2 said:


> But having a majority of americans, bristish and European as winners it really highlights the unbalance we still have in the media world. Maybe poor music education in poorer countries is to blame, maybe is the difficult access to technology. It's a complicated issue.



I acknowledge what you wrote and agree that people around the world are not in the same position when it comes to this, but Spitfire Audio is definitely one of the companies that is making it more even and equal, by offering free and inexpensive high quality tools (LABS, Originals -series and BBC Discover), which do not require that powerful (=expensive) computers to run. You can nowadays also have high quality DAWS that are free or cheap (Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reaper, etc.), and good quality effects for free.

The entries that I happened to listen from the third world countries, were basically carbon copies of generic Hollywood-type action scores. In that case there is no benefit from coming from a different musical heritage and culture. It would have been nice to find something completely different in that regard (there may be - I haven't listened to that many), where people have used their cultural background and assets to benefit the outcome.

All the best.


----------



## AJHnob

Just in case some of you need a break from the debate. This is pretty funny!


----------



## PaulLawler

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



I've always told people, even from my meagre status as a trailer/library/tv composer that the music business is a VERY small world, and you need to keep derogatory things to yourself. I guess it's a very different world nowadays with social media where everybody feels entitled, and has a strange narcissistic sense of importance.

I hope the winner gets a nice lift up the career ladder. After this backlash he is more famous than almost all of us


----------



## pawelmorytko

PaulLawler said:


> I've always told people, even from my meagre status as a trailer/library/tv composer that the music business is a VERY small world, and you need to keep derogatory things to yourself. I guess it's a very different world nowadays with social media where everybody feels entitled, and has a strange narcissistic sense of importance.
> 
> I hope the winner gets a nice lift up the career ladder. After this backlash he is more famous than almost all of us


Maybe Spitfire hired some nay sayers on the internet to encourage debate, and then more people jumped on the bandwagon, and now everyone knows the winner's name and has listened to his entry because of all the drama. Maybe this is just another very smart marketing move from Spitfire to help David win the real prize: get his name out there. "No publicity is bad publicity" and all that. Now that would be controversial


----------



## creativeforge

Congratulations to our VIC friend @David Kudell !! Love that you went for having fun with the clip.  There are a few valuable lessons right there... 

Live long and prosper! 🖖 :emoji_trophy:

Regards,

Andre


----------



## creativeforge

Michael Stibor said:


> I like how you put "rules" in quotation marks. I can imagine that's how the Spitfire referred to them as well.



Totally unrelated, but, eh... 

"I've, seen things.. ..so many things that you can't believe.
Past designs, future designs, cables in the bend. 
Second-hand sounds, future sounds, synthesizer dialogues. 
Incomprehensible software. 

*Hi Jon, let's break some rules! *
Here comes a sound! We've got to record this later. 
Same ol' factory you know...

Here's some names for you: 
'Polyester landscape, Nylon Oxygen, Ashes to Concrete.' 
etcetera.....etcetera.... etcetera..... 

"Oh, by the way, 
It's been a beautiful morning, what a morning, great morning, 
It's a great morning man."

- Vangelis, Intergalactic Radio Station (Direct)


----------



## creativeforge

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



Thank you, Rctec, this  is a Master Class of magnitude that should be read, understood, internalized, cherished and lived out.

Blessings, and thank you for your voice in this.

Andre


----------



## toomanynotes

<DELETED>


----------



## creativeforge

fish_hoof said:


> At the core of it, many people (including myself at times) struggle with identity and insecurity. They brag about these things because their identity is wrapped in it... If they don't have these things, then "who am I" starts to surface. For me, after years of this type of struggle, I know who I am and who's I am. I hope one day they find that too.
> 
> Sorry, getting off topic lol. Back to music! Go David!



I like this. ^
The difference, I think, is when we draw observations and conclusions from repeated Groundhog Days, and take ownership of our own agency, which introduces us into a different perspective. That's some kind of freedom right there. 

A friend of mine once said something like: "You have to free your music from the tyranny of providing a living for you." And it seems to be a wise thing to do, you go back to WHY you're doing this. Attitudes are not taught in music school, but caught in life. Maturity is not a one time event.

Andre


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

toomanynotes said:


> I’m agreeing with you..It’s an after thought too..a reflection on your essay. I wasn’t saying ‘you’ rather I was saying ‘I ‘guess’ ‘anyone’. After all said and done, at least for me, it’s nepotism at the top..but you can also shrug and say well, what can you do about it? I’m not naive, I know narcissist’s every where in this thickle business too. We are just speckles drifting in this vast sea of chance and luck. Still, I always say there’s a glitter of hope in every turd situation.


Ah!!!! Thanks for clarifying 🙏😃 You are totally correct!!

Yes, all one can do in life is try. Yoda was wrong sadly, self-manifestation does not work.


----------



## Waywyn

I had to do it!
Forgive me sometimes not finding the right words ...


----------



## Dale Turner

Waywyn said:


> I had to do it!



It's the law, haha!


----------



## Mike Greene

Please -

All posts discussing rules or any of the other controversial topics should go into this thread.

I understand some comments may be valid and in keeping with the spirit of the forum. However, in this case, even benign comments about the rules incite (or rather, re-incite) the newcomers (who created accounts since Saturday specifically to complain about this) to think that's justification for them to respond. And then this keeps going and going. And going. And going.

I had to move over 30 posts this morning. Took me an hour, since writing explanations and trying to be polite is time-consuming. And that's after moving a bunch more last night. And 100 or 200 before that. I can't keep doing this, so my option at this point is to simply delete without explanation.

No doubt some people think I'm being too draconian here. That's fine, and I'll be the first to admit this is messy and I've made some mistakes in this. However, please discuss that in that other thread, not here. And just so we're clear, do not start a brand new thread in the main forum about forum moderation right now. I can't deal with that right now.

Thanks for your understanding.


----------



## tosvus

David Kudell said:


> By the way, anyone who doesn't have Alex's Titan guitar sample library, it's an amazing sounding power chord library. I used it all over my track, so this whole thing might be Alex's fault after all.


Thanks, I was wondering about that. Was so happy to hear you had guitar in your track as well!!


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

<DELETED>


----------



## dzilizzi

Mike Greene said:


> Please -
> 
> All posts discussing rules or any of the other controversial topics should go into this thread.
> 
> I understand some comments may be valid and in keeping with the spirit of the forum. However, in this case, even benign comments about the rules incite (or rather, re-incite) the newcomers (who created accounts since Saturday specifically to complain about this) to think that's justification for them to respond. And then this keeps going and going. And going. And going.
> 
> I had to move over 30 posts this morning. Took me an hour, since writing explanations and trying to be polite is time-consuming. And that's after moving a bunch more last night. And 100 or 200 before that. I can't keep doing this, so my option at this point is to simply delete without explanation.
> 
> No doubt some people think I'm being too draconian here. That's fine, and I'll be the first to admit this is messy and I've made some mistakes in this. However, please discuss that in that other thread, not here. And just so we're clear, do not start a brand new thread in the main forum about forum moderation right now. I can't deal with right now.
> 
> Thanks for your understanding.


Sorry Mike. I wish I could see the thread title while reading. I usually go to threads by the notification icon and after reading a few posts, forget which I am on... I will try to do better. And delete away if I forget again!


----------



## classified_the_x

<DELETED>


----------



## David Kudell

Waywyn said:


> I had to do it!
> Forgive me sometimes not finding the right words ...




Amazing.


----------



## jbuhler

Waywyn said:


> I had to do it!
> Forgive me sometimes not finding the right words ...



This is great! But the YouTube comments...


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

David Kudell said:


> Amazing.


David, I hope you get an agent or manager from this who actually gets you a steady stream of work, which is impossible for most composers!!

For most composers it’s not doing the work that’s so difficult, it’s getting hired over and over at good rates.

I have most of the Spitfire libraries so you are gonna love them. What you need now is continued luck 🍀


----------



## Jaap

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I have most of the Spitfire libraries so you are gonna love them. What you need now is continued luck



And 10 SSD drives


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Jaap said:


> And 10 SSD drives


It all fits on one 4TB SSD. I got mine for around $340 each.


----------



## Brambleclaw

<DELETED>


----------



## reutunes

Since people keep messaging me to get my thoughts on the controversy, I thought a video explanation was a better idea.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

reutunes said:


> Since people keep messaging me to get my thoughts on the controversy, I thought a video explanation was a better idea.




Riveting stuff. I especially loved your detailed breakdown and analysis at the 5 minute mark.


----------



## Waywyn

jbuhler said:


> This is great! But the YouTube comments...



But at this point, I truly have to say that the discussions in the comment section, even though sometimes heated, stays in a polite manner. Yes, a few insulting exceptions, but disregarding that I am thankful! It seems my mission has been done here because if I just prevented a few people from trying to rethink some points instead of just bashing around it was worth it ... even more, all the dislikes I have received (which I am, thankful too, because in the end they still push my channel )


----------



## AndyP

reutunes said:


> Since people keep messaging me to get my thoughts on the controversy, I thought a video explanation was a better idea.



Should I ever enter a competition, I can only hope not to win, or nobody will take notice.


----------



## Zedcars

reutunes said:


> Since people keep messaging me to get my thoughts on the controversy, I thought a video explanation was a better idea.



Personally, I think this hits the nail on the head and finally lays to bed all these asinine arguments. However, the background is far too jolly; more grey please.


----------



## DenisT

David, dude, your track is great, 8-Bit is cool blablabla... I only have one problem : I CAN'T GET YOUR THEME OUT OF MY HEAD SINCE SUNDAY, FOR REAL!!!! 

No, seriously man, congratulations! There will always be haters, don't pay attention to them. Focus on that great achievement, be proud, and keep making great music! Your victory just taught thousands of aspiring composers that sometimes you need to take risks in order to succeed, as long as you stay true to yourself and put your heart into your craft. Because music is all about love, passion, respect, collaboration, experiments, fun... and quite a lot of composers still need to learn that apparently, even before learning how to write a tune.

Can't wait to hear more of your music, David!


----------



## Black Light Recordings

reutunes said:


> Since people keep messaging me to get my thoughts on the controversy, I thought a video explanation was a better idea.



I have to say, your musical selection was too jarring. You failed to capture the essence of a reaction video. Not only that, but you altered the background and you know a guy that knows a gal that worked for Adobe, so there!


----------



## eric_caissie

Hi, it's the judges' choices and that's it. If you start a competition you will probably have the same comments and messages. To have the opportunity to write a score on an amazing show like Westword is great. So many people complain on never having any content to write on and this happens with an amazing scene, everyone should be honored to have that chance. 

I'm from Quebec, Canada, and not eligible to win as we have ridiculous rules for international competitions. But I entered anyway to have the chance that my score would be heard from J.J, Ramin and Spitfire team. I enjoyed so much creating my template, composing, arranging, mixing, etc. It gave me a chance to learn more.

Like Hans Zimmer says the internet is always there and I'm happy my content will always be there. I am proud of what I did but "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and everyone has a different style and taste. It's a very competitive business, like a lot of people I'm trying my best. keep creating and networking! "your net worth is your network" like they say. 

Cheers.

EC


----------



## gussunkri

Congratulations David! Your music put a big smile on my lips. Both me and my wife laughed out loud several times during our listen to it. Of course, as others have already pointed out, your music was not just funny, it was also very well executed. I hummed one of your themes directly after having heard it once. Nice job!

You of course do not owe us any walkthrough of your cue, but I for one would love to see one and to hear more on how you did it.


----------



## jaketanner

Rctec said:


> I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?


I too am on the older side..not sure I'm a fart yet.. LOL, but I feel the same...got two Grammys a long while ago, but they don't mean as much as people think. The music producer I was working with at the time told me this: It's all about what you did last that matters and how successful what you worked on becomes, the awards are just for your own personal satisfaction that you're doing something right.

I've had my doubts about this submission too...but the more I thought about it, the more I have to remember that art is art; and as with all art, it's mostly subjective and usually open season on criticism. Whether we agree with the choice of score means nothing, but we should not be attacking David, Spitfire or any other composer on a personal level.


----------



## Michael Stibor

jaketanner said:


> I too am on the older side..not sure I'm a fart yet.. LOL, but I feel the same...got two Grammys a long while ago, but they don't mean as much as people think. The music producer I was working with at the time told me this: It's all about what you did last that matters and how successful what you worked on becomes, the awards are just for your own personal satisfaction that you're doing something right.
> 
> I've had my doubts about this submission too...but the more I thought about it, the more I have to remember that art is art; and as with all art, it's mostly subjective and usually open season on criticism. Whether we agree with the choice of score means nothing, but we should not be attacking David, Spitfire or any other composer on a personal level.


Hey Jake, What did you get your Grammys for?


----------



## jaketanner

Michael Stibor said:


> Hey Jake, What did you get your Grammys for?


Celia Cruz...won best Salsa album..I engineered most of it.


----------



## Michael Stibor

jaketanner said:


> Celia Cruz...won best Salsa album..I engineered most of it.


Amazing. I know you said it was some time ago, but congratulations!


----------



## jpup4life

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



Your response mirrored mine. The contest, and the task of making music for others in general really should be for more than just greedy self-promotion.

I tuned into this whole debacle on Monday and found a large reservoir of jealousy and bitterness just spill out onto Spitfire and on this poor man whose only crime was doing exactly what everybody else did. He took a risk and came away with a well-earned victory. So I salute you @David Kudell for not holding back, seizing that opportunity, and running with it. You exhibited the kind of bravery that a lot of us shy composers need to instill in ourselves.

Additionally Spitfire and @christianhenson deserve none of the criticism that's been heaped on them. They're in my opinion one of the top collections of people designing sounds for us today. They have so much vision, and a lot of good intention. They've enhanced and elevated music-making for me and countless others. So I hope they're able to wash their hands of this filth. @christianhenson you spoke well. Anyone who doesn't understand your message is destined to work alone because of their sour outlook.

It's so sad...at a time when many of us can't even be together, this lot decides to congregate to cry "HERETIC!" "Fraud!" "Burn them at the stake".... the level of hate was nearly Inquisitional. It's a shame so many talented people gave in to mob mentality and ugly misuse of consensus...for what? A "friendly" competition?

I apologize for this soap box, but this whole thing has me reflecting on why I too spend my time making music. I'm truly a nobody who's gained nothing from my music beyond just the joy of creating and progressing. I might never put my music out there. I did notice this competition but I let it off my radar, abandoned my piece and happily got busy learning more on the production side of things as I've only just started this year to compose on a computer. I made a few pieces that my friends and family think are lovely. And that's why I've always done it...for the challenge of bringing joy to others. And to my knowledge, there is nothing, and no reason for ANYTHING to disturb my love of what I do with music.

I'm touched that you, @Rctec of all the voices that could be heard, graciously emphasized that point. Reminding us that the reason we do this is for the challenge and beauty of it. We do it for the mystery of what makes good music good...and it does truly mystify us. In fact, the way I see it, making music actually makes us all explorers. One persons' success should only move us to journey on with them and explore together. We all have this privilege of eternally chasing the ever-changing boundaries and borders of this landscape we occupy....watching it grow and evolve.

Thank you @Rctec for speaking up and shining a bright beacon of light in this storm. And congratulations @David Kudell! So happy to find you on the forum! Looking forward to hearing more from you in the future!

(P.S. @David Kudell , You sound like you got a good head on your shoulders. But if you ever start feeling insecure or annoyed at everyone out there, just shut off the digital world, and pour your heart out in your music. Heck, have yourself a good laugh and watch the movie Amadeus. Some of the greatest composers in history have had to put up with all kinds of empty-headed peers objecting to their music. "Too many notes, it's not Italian, it's abhorrent or offensive." 😂. The critics never go away, but they are forgotten. And the music lives on. )


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## jaketanner

Michael Stibor said:


> Amazing. I know you said it was some time ago, but congratulations!


Thank you


----------



## DavidY

DenisT said:


> I only have one problem : I CAN'T GET YOUR THEME OUT OF MY HEAD SINCE SUNDAY, FOR REAL!!!!


I came here to say something like this too... (and I see other people said something similar in earlier posts). And however many bits are involved (I've never seen Westworld but I see other people's explanations of what was going on), a catchy tune is a catchy tune.


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## MarcHedenberg

DavidY said:


> I came here to say something like this too... (and I see other people said something similar in earlier posts). And however many bits are involved (I've never seen Westworld but I see other people's explanations of what was going on), a catchy tune is a catchy tune.





It's probably a testament to the quality of the melody and its memorability (is that the right word??) that it translates so seamlessly to being performed by a violin. I was brewing coffee this morning and out of nowhere, the tune just started playing in my head.


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## dcoscina

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> People are actually posting YouTube reaction videos? I have not seen any.


I’ve seen videos from pros who are taking these bitter individuals to task but that’s about it. All I can say to those who are whining; don’t do commercial music for a living. You are in store for a lot of disappointment and frustration...😝


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## survivalskills

I'm wicked late to the game here but congrats to the winner and runners up! I haven't had a lot of opportunity to dig into this type of work so I was happy to just enter. Here's the entry I submitted!


----------



## KerrySmith

Rctec said:


> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...



Folks. The saddest thing is that all of the complainers SHOULD KNOW BETTER. When I started in the early 90s, the business really was a mysterious black box. It was hard to find out information necessary to build a career from scratch unless you were directly exposed to it, knew someone in it, or were doggedly resolute in digging up every nugget of information that you could. You might make a mistake, but chances were 50-50 it could be from genuine ignorance. 

But now, everyone has this wonderful Internet resource. 

You have professionals with DECADES of experience freely sharing how just about every step in the process works (or doesn't work). There are YouTube channels, Interviews, Roundtables,Masterclasses, forums like this one and the FB Perspectives group, where people who have actually been doing the work are generously letting you peer behind the curtain, telling you their stories, relaying what has worked, what has not, and how hard it can be to predict what will spark joy with a client. 

I'm very entrenched in my little end of the business now (which is not a flashy end) but I cackle with glee every time I glean a nugget of "new" insight from someone else in the industry who does something in a different way. 

We have an embarrassment of riches in being able to do this work today. Choose how you use your riches. Will it be for joy or darkness? 

...and big props to David. His work held my attention, which is saying a lot for a 4-1/2 minute chase scene.


----------



## Myles McLeod

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz




I suppose the directorial decision that took place initially in Westworld for this particular scene, with the use of 'Ride Of The Valkyries', was controversial from the onset. It was almost like a huge reference to the Blues Brothers car chase which is also accompanied by the same piece of music. 

I think what some (not all) viewers and composers find difficult when watching the original Westworld scene is that the visual experience does not reference Caleb's hallucinations enough. We do not see the car chase visually through Caleb's perspective enough to warrant a score that is entirely designed to solely focus on Caleb's discombobulated experience. 

For some of us, that clash of two worlds, isn't pulled off very well, as the music takes over and becomes the story. Now that isn't necessarily a bad thing of course, it is an artistic decision, a bold one that the creators have taken and have obviously sought for in this competition. But for some of us, moments, for instance, with the exterior shots of the car chase clashed uncomfortably (and not in a 'Reservoir Dogs' kind of way) with the music. It forces the viewer in that instance, to disengage with the viewing experience, to workout why the music is so at odds with what is going on. You then quite obviously take note of the music for the rest of the scene, as it becomes the centre of attention as you try to convince yourself that it is working smoothly, connecting the music and the action to Caleb's outer experience. 
In other words, the viewer is having to work to tie everything together for it to make sense. 

Now usually that musical effect works well and you'll find that the viewer quickly falls into place with it, but because Caleb seems relatively functional and because the scene references his hallucination in only small, ambiguous doses, that juxtaposition for some of us, falls short of what it is trying to achieve. 
Now had they used diegetic music to begin with, by showing a radio being turned on to introduce Wagner, then I think that would have stuck a bit better. 

This is why I believe people are struggling to swallow the judges decision making. They sought the same sort of storytelling that their original music provided from us composers in this competition, but some of us personally felt that their original use of music and way of storytelling did not quite feel right and so chose to score it differently. 

Having said all that, I am 100% on your side. We should be celebrating everybody's effort and work and appreciate all of the wonderful, creative approaches that we, all, collectively achieved. 

Hatred and negativity is not constructive and not healthy for anyone involved, nor should David have to bear such animosity. Healthy feedback on the other hand, should be welcomed and discussions with healthy feedback in mind about Spitfire's Competition and the way it was run should also be welcomed. It was their first go at a competition and I think they bit off more than they could chew with 11,000 submissions, but they did provide us all with a lovely opportunity to brush up on our skills, to provide us (up and coming composers) with something to showcase and to learn from.

It is truly fascinating looking at how one scene can be interpreted in so many different and imaginative ways. So I do urge you sir to put your frustrations and disappointment to one side and to take a moment to enjoy other people's creations. There are some truly magnificent works to explore. 

It is also an opportunity for even the most seasoned composer to learn something new, as every brain holds something different and exciting to learn from.


----------



## chocobitz825

Myles McLeod said:


> I suppose the directorial decision that took place initially in Westworld for this particular scene, with the use of 'Ride Of The Valkyries', was controversial from the onset. It was almost like a huge reference to the Blues Brothers car chase which is also accompanied by the same piece of music.
> 
> I think what some (not all) viewers and composers find difficult when watching the original Westworld scene is that the visual experience does not reference Caleb's hallucinations enough. We do not see the car chase visually through Caleb's perspective enough to warrant a score that is entirely designed to solely focus on Caleb's discombobulated experience.
> 
> For some of us, that clash of two worlds, isn't pulled off very well, as the music takes over and becomes the story. Now that isn't necessarily a bad thing of course, it is an artistic decision, a bold one that the creators have taken and have obviously sought for in this competition. But for some of us, moments, for instance, with the exterior shots of the car chase clashed uncomfortably (and not in a 'Reservoir Dogs' kind of way) with the music. It forces the viewer in that instance, to disengage with the viewing experience, to workout why the music is so at odds with what is going on. You then quite obviously take note of the music for the rest of the scene, as it becomes the centre of attention as you try to convince yourself that it is working smoothly, connecting the music and the action to Caleb's outer experience.
> In other words, the viewer is having to work to tie everything together for it to make sense.
> 
> Now usually that musical effect works well and you'll find that the viewer quickly falls into place with it, but because Caleb seems relatively functional and because the scene references his hallucination in only small, ambiguous doses, that juxtaposition for some of us, falls short of what it is trying to achieve.
> Now had they used diegetic music to begin with, by showing a radio being turned on to introduce Wagner, then I think that would have stuck a bit better.
> 
> This is why I believe people are struggling to swallow the judges decision making. They sought the same sort of storytelling that their original music provided from us composers in this competition, but some of us personally felt that their original use of music and way of storytelling did not quite feel right and so chose to score it differently.
> 
> Having said all that, I am 100% on your side. We should be celebrating everybody's effort and work and appreciate all of the wonderful, creative approaches that we, all, collectively achieved.
> 
> Hatred and negativity is not constructive and not healthy for anyone involved, nor should David have to bear such animosity. Healthy feedback on the other hand, should be welcomed and discussions with healthy feedback in mind about Spitfire's Competition and the way it was run should also be welcomed. It was their first go at a competition and I think they bit off more than they could chew with 11,000 submissions, but they did provide us all with a lovely opportunity to brush up on our skills, to provide us (up and coming composers) with something to showcase and to learn from.
> 
> It is truly fascinating looking at how one scene can be interpreted in so many different and imaginative ways. So I do urge you sir to put your frustrations and disappointment to one side and to take a moment to enjoy other people's creations. There are some truly magnificent works to explore.
> 
> It is also an opportunity for even the most seasoned composer to learn something new, as every brain holds something different and exciting to learn from.



I mentioned before that I think David told a great hero’s story that bent genres around 8bit and westerns and almost superhero type themes. His transitions made 4:30 minutes feel short and multilayered for me. The 8bit really told caleb’s perspective for me, but the orchestral elements told the hero’s tale. The entire fun aspect of it really worked for me because the entire chase was so slow and low stakes that there really was to much of a need for an overblown sense of danger. Delores always had everything under control, and his epic theme at the standoff was a brilliant way to show what the scene was about.


----------



## chocobitz825

oh yeah. A review of this episode before this competition....


----------



## Lea1229

David Kudell said:


> ... Just to clarify, my duties working as an assistant sound editor were primarily sitting in a machine room and loading DAT tapes of production dialog in an office. And spotting ADR cues for the sound editors. It's about as glamorous as driving the catering truck on set. ...


Sounds glamorous to me, I've never even made it as far as getting coffee for someone on a set! hehe


----------



## Cuate

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz


Hi, I agree. David made something outstanding and unusual, but he did it pretty well. He is an industry professional, but also the other finalists have been making music for years, and that is why their works were so good. David did a very good job and deserved the price. Congrats, David. He did something different but it is up the director to accept or to reject; in this case, the jury accepted. I hope all this situation helps David to reach the ears of great directors and get some projects to score.


----------



## Cuate

David Kudell said:


> Hi there Keloo, I appreciate your feedback. Just to clarify, my duties working as an assistant sound editor were primarily sitting in a machine room and loading DAT tapes of production dialog in an office. And spotting ADR cues for the sound editors. It's about as glamorous as driving the catering truck on set. So the idea that JJ Abrams or any other director knows who I am is ridiculous.


David, you did a very good job and deserved the price. All finalists have been making music for years and that is why all you are good on it. If you work in a movie score and try something different, it will be OK, and it is up the director to accept it or reject it; in this case, the jury accepted. Congrats!


----------



## quentinkoons

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



When the winner was announced, I was glad that my or any other trap entry didn't win. 
Imagine being a young aspiring composer getting thousands of comments that your 808 isn't fitting a scene they didn't even understand.

I always had the feeling that the composing scene is very warm, welcoming and wise.

But now every young composer now sees a very bitter stale community and it feels like I should walk back to HipHop production.


ps.
Congrats to David!!


----------



## vvaidy

@David Kudell I have never posted on this forum and indeed, I'm coming out of lurker mode for my first post. The sole reason for this post is that I heard you were here and I hope you will get to read this at some point.

I understand there has been considerable backlash and some acrimony. For whatever it's worth I just wanted to remind you that for each person that sends you a nasty or negative note, there are probably a hundred or more that feel differently and aren't motivated enough to reach out to you.

On behalf of many many people that aren't bitter, aren't mad, and are just plain happy for you because you won - here's very warm congratulations! I sincerely hope the negative sounds you hear aren't enough to dampen what should be an incredibly proud and happy moment for you.

And, while I am at it, huge thanks and much appreciation to the fine fine folk at Spitfire - you are a wonderful company and I admire and appreciate you enormously. Perhaps even more than I already did, after seeing how you are handling all of this! 

And finally, to anyone who is still mad or annoyed - consider this: please, let it go ... You might be completely convinced that the judges made a mistake, but remember that they are all incredibly accomplished and experienced individuals. You don't have to agree with them, and one day you might well be invited to judge a competition like this. When it does, you'll get to make your own decision. Until then, please consider deferring to the judgement of this very elite panel and allow the winners to enjoy their moment of success undampened by your own disappointment.

Just my $0.02.

Again, to @David Kudell and all the winners (and Spitfire!): Very warm congratulations!


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

dcoscina said:


> I’ve seen videos from pros who are taking these bitter individuals to task but that’s about it. All I can say to those who are whining; don’t do commercial music for a living. You are in store for a lot of disappointment and frustration...😝


I agree ☝ with you!!

I also want to add, that unless you are John Williams or Hans Zimmer or Mike Post, you are going to be dealing with endless amount of rejection as a film tv composer. It’s extremely difficult to get to the point in one’s career where you have a top agent or manager repping you and even if you do that does not mean you get every gig and your workflow is continuously happening from one production to another and every director and exec loves every cue you write. This industry is constantly throwing rejection at everyone except maybe a very small group of composers. So if you can’t handle losing a contest you would never make it in this biz.

Being a film tv composer is not like being a great baseball player who hits .300 and still gets out 7 out of 10 at bats. Being a film tv composer means you are probably batting .0000001 way under 1% unless you are on the A-list. This means you are gonna be rejected just about everytime you try to be that one composer to get that film production or tv show or big trailer campaign. Maybe the odds of writing for music libraries is much much better but again that’s not part of the industry I am interested in. For those composers who have agents who get them a steady flow of well paying work they don’t realize how lucky they are.

CH made a comment in one of his YouTube videos recently where he claimed that the most talented composers are the ones who make it as though the more talented you are the more successful you become. Though I normally agree with what CH says almost all the time, I absolutely disagree with that statement. The most talented people in every industry in the world are not the most successful ones. The most successful people are the luckiest ones, that’s all. There are far too many people that are professionals or trying to make it as professionals who all work endlessly hard and long hours, who are all quite talented and are all determined to succeed. So it’s not like the most talented make it, that’s absurd. There are plenty of composers who made it who I don’t find that talented, this goes for actors, directors, writers, etc. I’ve seen plenty of great movies that failed at the box office while horrendous films sometimes become huge blockbuster hits. It’s the same in the music biz, book publishing biz, Broadway show biz, you name the industry and the most successful people and products have nothing to do with the most talented people or best products available. Being successful or popular has nothing to do with talent or merit or character.

No one knows anything about anything in this world. Believe in God or the Universe or self-manifestation or skepticism or nihilism, it all doesn’t mean anything. You may be right, you may be wrong, it may not matter what you think or do, it may only matter to you. Life is not black and white. None of us know how to succeed or why we are alive. There are those succeeding and then there are way many more people trying to succeed but unable to. There is a mystery to life and success that no one can explain. William Goldman wrote good books about this
regarding Hollywood and Broadway.

Personally, IMHO I thought David did an excellent job scoring to picture A+++ but I would not have selected his cue as the winner or even as a finalist. I do think his cue was absolutely valid and him winning does not bother me at all. Yet, if I were a judge he would not have won the competition or made the finals. I was not impressed by any of the finalists cues either. So I may not have chosen any of their cues to make the finals if I had been a judge. Winning a contest or getting a gig as a composer is so random, it’s not about talent. You have all these professionals claiming David is the next coming of genius and he’s not and they are all wrong. David’s cue was appropriately scored to picture and probably stood out as his derivative video game style approach was most likely not attempted by anyone else. Was it bold? Sure. Was it risky to do what he did? Sure. Did his cue make me laugh and smile? Absolutely!!!! But I still feel David was mocking and putting down the whole contest by composing the music he wrote. Only David knows the truth about that.

IMHO I find most composers, screenwriters, tv writers, lyricists, and songwriters in the music biz, Broadway, and the film and tv business are derivative writers not innovative ones. Rarely, does anyone come up with true innovation and genius. I think I am a very good melody writer, however all of my original music is completely derivative. Listen to any score especially done by my favorite composers John Barry, Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams, though you can include James Horner in that bunch too in that heard one of their scores you just heard about all of their scores. Yes, John Barry’s James Bond theme sounds nothing like his score to Out of Africa. But his score to Out of Africa sounds like about every movie he ever scored. John Williams the most talented of all is the master of ripping off the classical catalogue better than anyone else. Star Wars is verbatim Wagner almost note for note, etc, but I don’t have near the talent of John Williams, most don’t either. Elliot Goldenthal wrote this beautiful very transitional short cue for Interview with a Vampire in 1994 when a vampire very briefly descends down a ship’s mast. One year later that exact cue was used as the same exact main theme for Batman Forever. James Horner’s scores are so similar that if I closed my eyes I would have no clue what movie was on. I’m not attacking any of these composers at all. They each have a signature voice and sound when they create a score which can be heard in almost every movie they do. Hans Zimmer is interesting in that sometimes it’s easy to hear that it’s a Hans Zimmer score, but sometimes it’s not so easy to tell. Almost every Danny Elfman score sounds the same to me. Nothing wrong with that, by the way.

Most authors and screenwriters let alone tv writers are merely ripping off something that existed prior. Finding true genius in the world is very rare. David is not genius at all. He took a chance like many others do every day and got lucky and won a contest that may or may not advance his career as a composer. I think the judges don’t want to admit that David just plum got lucky because then they are confessing to the fact that they don’t know what they are doing regarding the selection process. But so much of life is about nothing more than personal taste, individual opinions and dumb luck, which rarely hits any of us 🍀

If you are lucky enough to score to a film or tv show don’t be surprised if you use themes and motifs you wrote from prior projects or that your music sounds eerily similar to a billion other scores, it’s exceptionally rare for anyone to create true genius in this world and that word is thrown around too often and too easily when it shouldn’t be. If you listen carefully enough you will hear all of the classical catalogue being constantly ripped off in most movie scores and modern day songs, but I don’t see Beethoven’s and Wagner’s and Holst’s and Strauss’ and Rachmaninov’s (etc...) estates suing the major studios or film composers all the time. Next time you hear a score or song that you think is genius I bet someone else wrote something just like it long before it existed. My favorite band Led Zeppelin horribly ripped off other bands and bluesmen prior to their success. Angus Young, one of my favorite guitarists, ripped off Chuck Berry and other great bluesmen when creating his signature playing style and performing style. I’m not just talking about influences in your music I’m talking about blatant plagiarism. Most of us don’t speak a unique language either that we invented. We may speak English which is derived from Latin and German which are derived from Greek, etc.... Our music Lexicon is no different. The Beatles ripped off others, Elvis Presley ripped off others before him. Al Jolson ripped off others. And it goes on and on. The film and tv biz are big factories plunking our repetitive iterations of things you’ve seen before over and over again.

Nothing is new under the Sun ☀ If you want to succeed in Hollywood or life for that matter, just do as others have done before you. Going rogue or thinking you are doing something rogue or you are gonna do something no one else has done before is delusional thinking. I guarantee you that whatever you are about to do it’s been done a billion times before but you may not realize it yet. Sticking a toilet 🚽 on a wall 🖼 and calling it genius art (Dadaism) doesn’t make it genius. It probably means you have way too much free time on your hands. That next great revolutionary idea 💡 has probably been done before a gazillion times. The doom of man is that he forgets. So history repeats itself or some say rhymes.

Anyone who goes to school or college or graduate school only learns how to regurgitate, mimic, and imitate what others have done before you. No one can teach others how to be genius. And combining a little Wagner with a little Strauss does not make one a genius either for example.


----------



## brynolf

Totally unrelated question...

Didn't participate in the contest. But is it still ok to try scoring the scene and upload it just for fun (would realistically take me about a year, if I ever got around to it)? Or is the clip now verboten, due to the contest being over?


----------



## Eptesicus

brynolf said:


> Totally unrelated question...
> 
> Didn't participate in the contest. But is it still ok to try scoring the scene and upload it just for fun (would realistically take me about a year, if I ever got around to it)? Or is the clip now verboten, due to the contest being over?



I cant imagine that being an issue/anyone objecting. 

Youtube is filled with 11,000 videos of the scene after all


----------



## markwind

Finally took the time to view the winner entry myself. It's so brilliant. Well Done David. I genuinely don't think the 8bit was that far out there, as much as it was truly an original take from the characters perspective. You can see it in his performance all the way through, the high in his expression, the unreality of his experience phased with the practical sense and orientation.

I think from what bit I gather from the backlash, is that the issue folks had might be a little twofold; First I feel a lack of imagination to see the brilliance of David's approach - it just is - whether one agrees with it or not. It's a brilliant interpretation of the scene. Second, people's expectations were fixed alongside very familiar avenues, resulting in a lacking variation from contestants forcing the more original takes to stand out.

As far as judging the backlash? I think that's up for debate; from a profesional angle - the backlash is absolutely wrong. From a consumer standpoint the argument holds up that the contest framing wasn't communicated clearly enough. Feeling cheated is a popular consumerist experience when things don't follow along your expectation. I think this contest has shown some of that. In which I'd say there is no true right or wrong except from what Spitfire themselves conclude from it.


----------



## synthesizerwriter

Eptesicus said:


> Youtube is filled with 11,000 videos of the scene...



If only YouTube could be filled! 

"Thanks for uploading your video, but YouTube is now full..."


----------



## Michael Antrum

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Yes, John Barry’s James Bond theme sounds nothing like his score to Out of Africa. But his score to Out of Africa sounds like about every movie he ever scored.



Really ? I must say I had not noticed how similar Out of Africa was to the Ipcress File, Midnight Cowboy, The Lion In Winter, Frances, Zulu, The Quiller Memorandum etc....... And amongst the Bond films there was great variety too...


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Michael Antrum said:


> Really ? I must say I had not noticed how similar Out of Africa was to the Ipcress File, Midnight Cowboy, The Lion In Winter, Frances, Zulu, The Quiller Memorandum etc....... And amongst the Bond films there was great variety too...


There are so many John Barry scores, who is my all-time favorite composer, that sound so identical. They are all gorgeous scores, but it’s so easy to hear John Barry in them that you could mix and match a lot of the score together and they would work in any of these movies: Out of Africa, Dances with Wolves, The Specialist, Indecent Proposal, Chaplin, Jagged Edge.....As he got older he found his signature voice, that’s all.


----------



## synthesizerwriter

In the 11,000 entries, surely someone must have done a John Barry-influenced score?


----------



## Michael Stibor

markwind said:


> Finally took the time to view the winner entry myself. It's so brilliant. Well Done David. I genuinely don't think the 8bit was that far out there, as much as it was truly an original take from the characters perspective. You can see it in his performance all the way through, the high in his expression, the unreality of his experience phased with the practical sense and orientation.
> 
> I think from what bit I gather from the backlash, is that the issue folks had might be a little twofold; First I feel a lack of imagination to see the brilliance of David's approach - it just is - whether one agrees with it or not. It's a brilliant interpretation of the scene. Second, people's expectations were fixed alongside very familiar avenues, resulting in a lacking variation from contestants forcing the more original takes to stand out.
> 
> As far as judging the backlash? I think that's up for debate; from a profesional angle - the backlash is absolutely wrong. From a consumer standpoint the argument holds up that the contest framing wasn't communicated clearly enough. Feeling cheated is a popular consumerist experience when things don't follow along your expectation. I think this contest has shown some of that. In which I'd say there is no true right or wrong except from what Spitfire themselves conclude from it.


I’ll need to careful with my words so as to respect the rules for this particular thread.

While there was a fair share of entries that went down “familiar avenues... lacking in variation” as you said, I can say that from the approximately 200 entries I must’ve seen (I made a rule with myself to watch as many as came across my daily path) there were _many_ extremely well done and _original_ entries. There is a perception that the winning entry was daring and different and 10,999 people got it wrong. This is definitely not the case.

As for the last part you wrote, concerning the backlash. It is my belief that whenever something is put out, hopefully with good intentions, that is unexpectedly ill received or that many people just don’t ‘get’, it is worth the time of those that put it out to examine where the expectations fell flat, or where the miscommunication came from.


----------



## JohnTylerMusic

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



After pouring my heart and soul into this competition and reflecting on the experience (link to my entry is at the end of my post: let me know what you think!), I realized there was only one way forward for me...look for more music composition competitions! This competition helped me learn so much and I'm glad for the things I had to learn just to enter. As I was searching for more competitions, I came across a blog post by Eric Whitacre from 2009 that was so spot on to this conversation I had to share it. Big thanks to Hans Zimmer @Rctec for the advice above, and Eric Whitacre for the advice below! TO MAKING MUSIC!!! (and by the way - your Spitfire choir library is insane Eric. Definitely my favorite. Also, can't wait to try the Hans Zimmer libraries someday!)

--------------------------------------------------

*ADVICE FOR THE EMERGING COMPOSER: COMPETITIONS*
October 25, 2009 at 12:15 am UTC

Ah, composition competitions; there are hundreds, maybe thousands, every year, all over the world. Should you enter? Should you not? I’ve entered a lot of them over the years, and based on my personal experience the answer is yes. Competitions are a good thing, and offer a number of benefits to the emerging composer, as long as you know what those benefits are. To wit:

*Exposure.* Most of the time the judges in these contests are prominent conductors, or administrators, or publishers, and these are exactly the kinds of people you want to hear your music. Even if you don’t win (you won’t win – more on that later) you might leave a terrific impression on a single judge or the entire panel, and they may begin to follow your work more closely. Several times I’ve lost a competition and had the judges call me to ask if they could program my ‘loser’ score.

*You’ll finish the piece.* I don’t think I’ve ever seen a competition that is looking for “sketches” of a piece; they all want a finished product, ready to perform. This is great for you, because the application date becomes a concrete deadline to motivate you to complete your masterpiece. Then when you don’t win (seriously, you won’t win) you’ll have a finished work ready to shop around.

*It will steel your will and prepare you for a career filled with rejection.* Did I mention that you won’t win? In the last 18 years I’ve probably entered a hundred competitions and *I have never won anything*. Nothing. I lost the ASCAP Young Composers award three times (in three different years I entered _When David Heard_, _Lux Aurumque_, and _Cloudburst_, lost with all three). I lost the Dale Warland Singers competition, where I entered a never-performed piece called _Water Night_ (although Dale decided to publish _Water Night_ in his choral series, and the ‘winning’ piece from that year remains unpublished). Just last week I received a very nice letter from the good people at http://www.unitedstatesartists.org/Public2/Home/index.cfm (United States Artists), informing me that while my application was well received (all that interesting music you’ve written!), it didn’t merit an award.

But here’s the thing: I’m glad I’ve never won. It makes me feel like an outsider, makes me feel misunderstood, keeps me hungry, all the things that are _essential tools for being a composer_. You’ll be better for losing, because in your heart you’ll _know_ you should have won, and the injustice will help drive you forward.

That’s an important point to remember: it _is_ injustice. Composition competitions are hopelessly biased. The juries do their best, but they are just human beings looking at a lot of scores, all through their own personal opinion of what constitutes a ‘good’ piece. (Years after a student competition at Juilliard I was told by a jury member that they had rejected the score to my string transcription of _Water Night – _without even listening to the recording – because it looked too ‘simple’ to be a sophisticated piece. I remember thinking, “but the simplicity is the whole frickin’ point!”).

Don’t worry about winning. As a composer you are going to get turned down a lot, by conductors, by music publishers, by critics; it’s all just part of the gig. Entering competitions and not winning is a great way to get used to the lifestyle, the drive to just keep writing, forging ahead. For me, it’s been a way to develop an ‘inner-compass’, a sort of quiet confidence that it doesn’t really matter if I win or lose; the work alone is it’s own reward.

Finally, and this is a big point: I never enter a competition that requires me to submit my application with a fee. Fran Richards, the extraordinary Vice President & Director of Concert Music at ASCAP, passionately advances this philosophy, and I couldn’t agree with her more. Don’t ever pay to be a part of one of these competitions; _they_ are lucky to be getting an application from _you_.

So go out there and apply, dear friends, with head held high. Send them your very best work and prepare for rejection. You never know who might hear it, or how it might influence your career, now or ten years from now. And just think: at the very least you’ll have a beautifully engraved piece that you can turn around and send to the next reject… er, competition.









Advice for the Emerging Composer: Competitions – Blog, Advice for the Emerging Composer – Eric Whitacre


Ah, composition competitions; there are hundreds, maybe thousands, every year, all over the world. Should you enter? Should you not? I've entered a lot of




ericwhitacre.com


----------



## Michael Stibor

JohnTylerMusic said:


> After pouring my heart and soul into this competition and reflecting on the experience (link to my entry is at the end of my post: let me know what you think!), I realized there was only one way forward for me...look for more music composition competitions! This competition helped me learn so much and I'm glad for the things I had to learn just to enter. As I was searching for more competitions, I came across a blog post by Eric Whitacre from 2009 that was so spot on to this conversation I had to share it. Big thanks to Hans Zimmer @Rctec for the advice above, and Eric Whitacre for the advice below! TO MAKING MUSIC!!! (and by the way - your Spitfire choir library is insane Eric. Definitely my favorite. Also, can't wait to try the Hans Zimmer libraries someday!)
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> *ADVICE FOR THE EMERGING COMPOSER: COMPETITIONS*
> October 25, 2009 at 12:15 am UTC
> 
> Ah, composition competitions; there are hundreds, maybe thousands, every year, all over the world. Should you enter? Should you not? I’ve entered a lot of them over the years, and based on my personal experience the answer is yes. Competitions are a good thing, and offer a number of benefits to the emerging composer, as long as you know what those benefits are. To wit:
> 
> *Exposure.* Most of the time the judges in these contests are prominent conductors, or administrators, or publishers, and these are exactly the kinds of people you want to hear your music. Even if you don’t win (you won’t win – more on that later) you might leave a terrific impression on a single judge or the entire panel, and they may begin to follow your work more closely. Several times I’ve lost a competition and had the judges call me to ask if they could program my ‘loser’ score.
> 
> *You’ll finish the piece.* I don’t think I’ve ever seen a competition that is looking for “sketches” of a piece; they all want a finished product, ready to perform. This is great for you, because the application date becomes a concrete deadline to motivate you to complete your masterpiece. Then when you don’t win (seriously, you won’t win) you’ll have a finished work ready to shop around.
> 
> *It will steel your will and prepare you for a career filled with rejection.* Did I mention that you won’t win? In the last 18 years I’ve probably entered a hundred competitions and *I have never won anything*. Nothing. I lost the ASCAP Young Composers award three times (in three different years I entered _When David Heard_, _Lux Aurumque_, and _Cloudburst_, lost with all three). I lost the Dale Warland Singers competition, where I entered a never-performed piece called _Water Night_ (although Dale decided to publish _Water Night_ in his choral series, and the ‘winning’ piece from that year remains unpublished). Just last week I received a very nice letter from the good people at http://www.unitedstatesartists.org/Public2/Home/index.cfm (United States Artists), informing me that while my application was well received (all that interesting music you’ve written!), it didn’t merit an award.
> 
> But here’s the thing: I’m glad I’ve never won. It makes me feel like an outsider, makes me feel misunderstood, keeps me hungry, all the things that are _essential tools for being a composer_. You’ll be better for losing, because in your heart you’ll _know_ you should have won, and the injustice will help drive you forward.
> 
> That’s an important point to remember: it _is_ injustice. Composition competitions are hopelessly biased. The juries do their best, but they are just human beings looking at a lot of scores, all through their own personal opinion of what constitutes a ‘good’ piece. (Years after a student competition at Juilliard I was told by a jury member that they had rejected the score to my string transcription of _Water Night – _without even listening to the recording – because it looked too ‘simple’ to be a sophisticated piece. I remember thinking, “but the simplicity is the whole frickin’ point!”).
> 
> Don’t worry about winning. As a composer you are going to get turned down a lot, by conductors, by music publishers, by critics; it’s all just part of the gig. Entering competitions and not winning is a great way to get used to the lifestyle, the drive to just keep writing, forging ahead. For me, it’s been a way to develop an ‘inner-compass’, a sort of quiet confidence that it doesn’t really matter if I win or lose; the work alone is it’s own reward.
> 
> Finally, and this is a big point: I never enter a competition that requires me to submit my application with a fee. Fran Richards, the extraordinary Vice President & Director of Concert Music at ASCAP, passionately advances this philosophy, and I couldn’t agree with her more. Don’t ever pay to be a part of one of these competitions; _they_ are lucky to be getting an application from _you_.
> 
> So go out there and apply, dear friends, with head held high. Send them your very best work and prepare for rejection. You never know who might hear it, or how it might influence your career, now or ten years from now. And just think: at the very least you’ll have a beautifully engraved piece that you can turn around and send to the next reject… er, competition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Advice for the Emerging Composer: Competitions – Blog, Advice for the Emerging Composer – Eric Whitacre
> 
> 
> Ah, composition competitions; there are hundreds, maybe thousands, every year, all over the world. Should you enter? Should you not? I've entered a lot of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ericwhitacre.com



That Eric Whitacre article should be pinned to the front and end of this thread. It’s very good. I love that he keeps repeating “Did I mention you won’t win?”


----------



## JohnTylerMusic

Michael Stibor said:


> That Eric Whitacre article should be pinned to the front and end of this thread. It’s very good. I love that he keeps repeating “Did I mention you don’t win?”



I loved it too - and it makes me hopeful - if Eric Whitacre hadn't won a composition competition, even with pieces as beautiful as "Water Night," and he's still been so successful making an impact with his music, there's hope for all of us too! Keep creating and sharing!


----------



## Michael Stibor

JohnTylerMusic said:


> I loved it too - and it makes me hopeful - if Eric Whitacre hadn't won a composition competition, even with pieces as beautiful as "Water Night," and he's still been so successful making an impact with his music, there's hope for all of us too! Keep creating and sharing!


I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## Myles McLeod

chocobitz825 said:


> I mentioned before that I think David told a great hero’s story that bent genres around 8bit and westerns and almost superhero type themes. His transitions made 4:30 minutes feel short and multilayered for me. The 8bit really told caleb’s perspective for me, but the orchestral elements told the hero’s tale. The entire fun aspect of it really worked for me because the entire chase was so slow and low stakes that there really was to much of a need for an overblown sense of danger. Delores always had everything under control, and his epic theme at the standoff was a brilliant way to show what the scene was about.



That's certainly an interesting interpretation and I enjoy seeing how people are able to connect with David's work in their own way. It's funny how subjective but at the same time how objective Film Music tries to be. It obviously has a brief, a goal in mind that the director, or in this case Spitfire sets out. A set of guidelines to which, you need to be in the right ball park in order to meet, but after that it is down to your own interpretation. We each judge the end result differently and that's the beauty of art, it's what you make of it on a personal level and you can't and should not try to force others to see it in your way but instead, try to discuss it and compare views. 

So a very interesting way of reading David's work. For me personally though, I think the filming of the car chase was slow, perhaps to emphasise Caleb's hallucinogenic experience, but you have missiles and explosions, you have a pressing Dolores who is reacting to events in her robotic way and you have the other guy who is obviously stressing out like mad because he is being shot at in a speeding car chase. The danger (in my own opinion) is there and should be commentated on, alongside Caleb's perspective and one could even allow a nod in Dolores' direction. I personally found it more challenging to incorporate those three elements and really enjoyed trying to cram all three perspectives into my music. 

I do think that David has done well using the orchestral elements to tell the hero's tale, though I find that his 8bit work, as fun as it is, almost over cooks it for me, it takes it a bit too far. It's a neat little idea though and the play in contrast between orchestra and 8bit was brilliant and executed beautifully. 

To me it is no surprise really that David won, as it is bold and competitions relish the bold and the unusual, it helps them as judges to pick a winner, as they obviously stand out from the crowd. I knew they'd pick a winner that followed through with the same mindset and storytelling that the creators had in mind when choosing music for the scene, but as the criteria was pretty vague, it might have been nice to of broken down the competition into different 'style of scoring' categories. Obviously though, that would have meant for Spitfire an extremely costly competition wherein several winners would have taken home the all in one bundle 🤣 But there we are, a fun experience and I'm glad I took part in it!


----------



## jaketanner

After reading Hans' post, Richard Kraft's, Eric and also John Powell's comments today in his webinar...I believe had people just kept things civil and respectful, even though there were some concerns...this wouldn't have been the shit show it turned out to be. It's the aggression I believe that caused the top guys to step in and take notice. I think we all need to remember no matter where we post, whether it's FB or VI, that people are watching and taking notes. Names get remembered, and not for the better.

To loosely paraphrase a point that Richard Kraft made on FB, (if you like something: say so, if not: keep it to yourself). I'll still complain about libraries from time to time... LOL but maybe not so much on highly publicized events.


----------



## Tom Haniff

N.Caffrey said:


> Not sure if it’s been posted already but I found this pretty spot on:
> 
> 
> 1) If it took you "weeks" to put together your 4-minute Westworld sample, you're not ready for this industry
> 
> 2) If you put all your hopes and dreams into a single bit of work, hoping it would be your key to your future, you're not ready for this industry.
> 
> 3) If you're furious that the judges went with something that you didn't like, or wasn't what you would have done, then you're not ready for this industry.




Number 1 definitely holds me back. This competition consumed me for about 3 weeks (fitting around my job) and although I'm proud of my work, it wasn't 100% polished. I am working on writing faster - if anyone has any tips, do let me know!

I am extremely grateful that this competition happened, for so many reasons. Not least of which is the massive opportunity to learn from other talented composers such as David and many others, connecting with them, and sharing encouragement.

Having been a bit of a musical hermit for the last few years, this was a wonderful experience - as is discovering this community..!


----------



## jeffreycl

Well, just for the heck of it, I'll add my two cents and echo what Tom said above.
I saw the competition and on day 1 downloaded the videos and was excited.
I hold a full time job and was not locked down during the competition so set some goals:
1. Just do it. My goal wasn't even to finish in time. Wasn't sure I could dedicate enough time to achieve finishing on time. - Check
2. The stretch goal was to finish in time to submit (being my first YouTube video ever) - Check
3. Never having seen the show, I had to research "genre change" and then what I heard in my head was something I had never done before...metal. So goal 3 - figure it out and do it. - Check
4. Since metal seemed a bit cliche compared to the judging criteria, find a way to make it innovative. I added a comedic element and made some changes later in the video which were innovative to me. - Check
5. Do I like it? - Check - Although I would probably change the beginning up a bit if I had time to do it. (As I tell my wife, "Sometimes you just have to do A- and go." Meaning, sometimes it is better to land an opportunity even though you think you can make it better than to lose the opportunity because you spent too much time making it "perfect".)

Am I a "Loser"? - Yep
Am I a "Winner"? - Yep

And, other than putting life on hold to watch Paul's ~8 minute video and subsequently David's video along with the 5 runner-up videos, life moved on.

And - Thank you to the Westworld team and Spitfire team for putting this on and giving me an opportunity to continue learning something that I never thought I would be able to do for much of my life. Who knows, if I were 40 years younger, I may have chosen a different career path.

Thanks for listening (or reading in this case).


----------



## jeffreycl

Forgot - one more goal. Make the number of comments on this thread exceed the number of submissions to the competition!


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Myles McLeod said:


> That's certainly an interesting interpretation and I enjoy seeing how people are able to connect with David's work in their own way. It's funny how subjective but at the same time how objective Film Music tries to be. It obviously has a brief, a goal in mind that the director, or in this case Spitfire sets out. A set of guidelines to which, you need to be in the right ball park in order to meet, but after that it is down to your own interpretation. We each judge the end result differently and that's the beauty of art, it's what you make of it on a personal level and you can't and should not try to force others to see it in your way but instead, try to discuss it and compare views.
> 
> So a very interesting way of reading David's work. For me personally though, I think the filming of the car chase was slow, perhaps to emphasise Caleb's hallucinogenic experience, but you have missiles and explosions, you have a pressing Dolores who is reacting to events in her robotic way and you have the other guy who is obviously stressing out like mad because he is being shot at in a speeding car chase. The danger (in my own opinion) is there and should be commentated on, alongside Caleb's perspective and one could even allow a nod in Dolores' direction. I personally found it more challenging to incorporate those three elements and really enjoyed trying to cram all three perspectives into my music.
> 
> I do think that David has done well using the orchestral elements to tell the hero's tale, though I find that his 8bit work, as fun as it is, almost over cooks it for me, it takes it a bit too far. It's a neat little idea though and the play in contrast between orchestra and 8bit was brilliant and executed beautifully.
> 
> To me it is no surprise really that David won, as it is bold and competitions relish the bold and the unusual, it helps them as judges to pick a winner, as they obviously stand out from the crowd. I knew they'd pick a winner that followed through with the same mindset and storytelling that the creators had in mind when choosing music for the scene, but as the criteria was pretty vague, it might have been nice to of broken down the competition into different 'style of scoring' categories. Obviously though, that would have meant for Spitfire an extremely costly competition wherein several winners would have taken home the all in one bundle 🤣 But there we are, a fun experience and I'm glad I took part in it!


IMHO David did an excellent job scoring to picture and the story being told. As much as I loved his music I didn’t think it was appropriate for the scene and would not have voted him to be the winner or even a finalist.

However, I am not upset at all that he won. Rarely do I agree with who the judges anoint in a contest. Matter of fact, I’m amazed sometimes by the lack of talent in some of the composers repped by huge agents given others can’t get representation that are substantially more talented. It’s all a game of luck 🍀


----------



## Loïc D

synthesizerwriter said:


> In the 11,000 entries, surely someone must have done a John Barry-influenced score?


Mine is quite influenced by John Barry...
(as everything I write, intentionally or not)


----------



## synthesizerwriter

Loïc D said:


> Mine is quite influenced by John Barry...
> (as everything I write, intentionally or not)


Nice broad palette of timbres. Loved the first bike motif! I liked it!


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Matter of fact, I’m amazed sometimes by the lack of talent in some of the composers repped by huge agents given others can’t get representation that are substantially more talented. It’s all a game of luck 🍀


I'm not sure I agree with this. Luck can be a factor, but I often see a lot good musicians making bad business decisions. The first one being that many composers feel like talent is enough.

_"I'll just keep working on my craft, become amazing, and people won't be able to deny my talent, and the film industry will be banging down my door in order to get me to work with them!". _Sadly, not the case.

In your example, you're saying that less talented composers often have representation that more talented composers do not. Well, if we take talent out of the equation, what other factors might have contributed to that? Was the less talented composer more structured in their business approach? Was he/she more persistent in contacting the right people? Was their attitude better, and have better interpersonal skills? Was he/she more adaptable in their approach to scoring, and willing to make more concessions with their music that maybe others were not? Just something for everyone to consider.

I'm sorry to use your innocent comment as a means to rant. I just feel that I see this type of thought process all the time. In any other line of business outside of the arts, no one would get very far assuming that everything is luck.

To be a working professional, there needs to be two sides to every composer. The talented artist, and the savvy businessman.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Michael Stibor said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this. Luck can be a factor, but I often see a lot good musicians making bad business decisions. The first one being that many composers feel like talent is enough.
> 
> _"I'll just keep working on my craft, become amazing, and people won't be able to deny my talent, and the film industry will be banging down my door in order to get me to work with them!". _Sadly, not the case.
> 
> In your example, you're saying that less talented composers often have representation that more talented composers do not. Well, if we take talent out of the equation, what other factors might have contributed to that? Was the less talented composer more structured in their business approach? Was he/she more persistent in contacting the right people? Was their attitude better, and have better interpersonal skills? Was he/she more adaptable in their approach to scoring, and willing to make more concessions with their music that maybe others were not? Just something for everyone to consider.
> 
> I'm sorry to use your innocent comment as a means to rant. I just feel that I see this type of thought process all the time. In any other line of business outside of the arts, no one would get very far assuming that everything is luck.
> 
> To be a working professional, there needs to be two sides to every composer. The talented artist, and the savvy businessman.


Sometimes it’s about connections, who you know, maybe they have a family member in the biz for example. Other times it’s about personal taste as many reps like someone’s talent who IMHO I don’t think they are particularly good. It’s not about being organized or improving one’s craft, those things are givens. It’s false to assume the most talented people become the most successful, that’s false in every industry. Yes, there are talented people who succeed, but having talent does not mean you will. It’s a given that one must work hard, be persistent, be collaborative, etc... Sometimes some composers get agents merely because they graduated from a specific college, though that alone won’t always work as too many people graduate top colleges and music schools every year. Though if one graduates with an MFA in acting from Yale you will get a major agent 100% of the time. I can’t explain why some of the people I’ve met have succeeded while others who are way more talented have not, but luck seems to be the main culprit.


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Sometimes it’s about connections, who you know, maybe they have a family member in the biz for example. Other times it’s about personal taste as many reps like someone’s talent who IMHO I don’t think they are particularly good. It’s not about being organized or improving one’s craft, those things are givens. It’s false to assume the most talented people become the most successful, that’s false in every industry. Yes, there are talented people who succeed, but having talent does not mean you will. It’s a given that one must work hard, be persistent, be collaborative, etc... Sometimes some composers get agents merely because they graduated from a specific college, though that alone won’t always work as too many people graduate top colleges and music schools every year. Though if one graduates with an MFA in acting from Yale you will get a major agent 100% of the time. I can’t explain why some of the people I’ve met have succeeded while others who are way more talented have not, but luck seems to be the main culprit.


Sure connections and personal taste can be a factor. Luck too. I’m not disputing that. 
Im just saying I see a lot of musicians assume that they have no control over their careers. Theres no guarantees in any business, but composers have more control than they think. That’s all.


----------



## SzPeti42

Sometimes it can even be political (in my country), which is kind of similar to nepotism, just with an extra layer of "fun".

Now, can I have a musical inquiry in this topic related to the competition in general?
Has anybody come across or written entries that utilized low woodwinds in any capacity that's characteristically audible? If so, I would love to hear those (yes, apparently I haven't had enough even after 500 ).
The only entries I've heard with any kind of woodwinds present were usually those operating in some kind-of classical writing style like Oleg Troyanovsky's runner up waltz.
But even if there was some in the entries, it was mostly covered up by the low brass so I don't remember anything specific. I've been finding myself really enjoying the sound of low woodwinds lately.


----------



## Tom Haniff

SzPeti42 said:


> Sometimes it can even be political (in my country), which is kind of similar to nepotism, just with an extra layer of "fun".
> 
> Now, can I have a musical inquiry in this topic related to the competition in general?
> Has anybody come across or written entries that utilized low woodwinds in any capacity that's characteristically audible? If so, I would love to hear those (yes, apparently I haven't had enough even after 500 ).
> The only entries I've heard with any kind of woodwinds present were usually those operating in some kind-of classical writing style like Oleg Troyanovsky's runner up waltz.
> But even if there was some in the entries, it was mostly covered up by the low brass so I don't remember anything specific. I've been finding myself really enjoying the sound of low woodwinds lately.



This is an interesting question. I listened to many entries but do not remember hearing any low woodwinds specifically. Personally, I used bassoon and contrabassoon, but mainly reinforcing the low brass. Otherwise, I have about 10 seconds of naked woodwinds near the intro, supported by horns, in a 1950s melodrama pastiche. And later, some doubling flutes to add 'zing' to string/trumpet stabs.

I do absolutely love the bass clarinet..


----------



## SzPeti42

Tom Haniff said:


> This is an interesting question. I listened to many entries but do not remember hearing any low woodwinds specifically. Personally, I used bassoon and contrabassoon, but mainly reinforcing the low brass. Otherwise, I have about 10 seconds of naked woodwinds near the intro, supported by horns, in a 1950s melodrama pastiche. And later, some doubling flutes to add 'zing' to string/trumpet stabs.
> 
> I do absolutely love the bass clarinet..



Oh yes, I remember that, I loved your entry, the added processing in the beginning to even have that characteristic 50s "effect" made me instantly smile  And the transition between that and the modern sound was pretty cool. Striking, but in a good way.


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## Loïc D

synthesizerwriter said:


> Nice broad palette of timbres. Loved the first bike motif! I liked it!


Thanks my friend !
I can’t write anything without putting bass & guitars somehow


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## Keith Theodosiou

I have been composing since i was about 17. I have come close to the music business on a few occations but for some reason didn't pan out for me.
Yes heartache as most composers strive to make it somehow in that business.
Now, i too am an old fart lol and now, i don't kid myself that i'm ever going to make it.
I am very happy with the music i compose now. It is not brilliant, it is not very technical but i get by.

My main goal has always been just for people to listen to and hopefully enjoy my music. That is what all composers really want. To have their music liked.

Entering competions is a great way to get your music heard and that's all it should be.
I have only ever been a runner up in a competion once and that was in the 80's, Midge Ure was one of the judges. I won an autographed copy of Ultravox's The Collection by the band.
To me, i had won. Not only did my music get heard but as a bonus, i got a prize too.

I wasn't expecting that so it was a great surprise and i am sure @David Kudell felt the same as the winner.

All the people that are bitching, did they REALLY expect to win?

Just upload your music and hope that people like what you created.

My entry has 215 views and 17 comments, all good and i am happy with that. People liked what i did.
I had 15 likes and 1 dislike. What's that all about? When i listen to another composers music, if i like it, i always thumbs up and comment on the piece. If i don't like it (which is not often) i don't comment and I NEVER leave a thumbs down.
Why do that? Is it cos they think the judges won't pick a piece or even look at a piece if it has a thumbs down. Is that what they do, go on every entrant and give a thumbs down? Sick people, that really winds me up.

Music for me is passion, i love it, i can't stop creating it, it is an addiction but most of all, i am greatfull that i have that addiction.

As far as cometitions go, just enter and enjoy the process.

As far as this competition goes, to all of us that didn't win or be a runner up....

This is not the competition you where looking for...
You may go about your business....
Move along....Move along!

As an afterthought, there are only two pieces of music that have ever brought tears to my eyes.
One is The 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky
The other is 



Chevaliers de Sangreal by Hans Zimmer



That is when you know you have touched someone's soul!


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Michael Stibor said:


> Sure connections and personal taste can be a factor. Luck too. I’m not disputing that.
> Im just saying I see a lot of musicians assume that they have no control over their careers. Theres no guarantees in any business, but composers have more control than they think. That’s all.


No they don’t. Control is an illusion in life regarding almost everything.


----------



## Kirk1701

Rctec said:


> Hi, I am an old fart. But I haven’t lost the passion of writing scores or inventing new sounds and bits of technology for my music. But I so agree with everything I’ve read in your post above. The road of rejection teaches you nothing. It makes you hard and cynical - the antithesis to music. Nor does too much applause. I’ve got my Oscar. It didn’t make me a better composer, or change my career. Just for one night I could be insane and giddy and think it was all relevant. it was fun, but that’s it. ...who can even remember who won for what last year or the year before?
> 
> I know everyone involved with the competition - not the composers, but I’m old enough to have worked for J.J.‘s father, and actually done a film with him. And we’re both synth geeks. Ramin really got his start with me, and met the Nolan’s through our working together - which - through his enormous talent - led directly to “Westworld”. The “Spitfire” guys I consider as personal friends and more than once have we helped each other out. ...so, why am I writing this? Just to name -drop? No, actually I secretly stayed away from listening to anything that was being submitted. I thought - once the dust settles, there will be an amazing amount of music and talent that should be recognized and given an opportunity at furthering their careers. I’ve done that a lot. I don’t think that Harry G-H, or John Powell, Lorne Balfe or JunkieXL and Ben Wallfisch - as just a few examples, will think of me holding them back in forging their careers. Our whole ”Blue Planet” and all the other things ‘Bleeding Fingers’ does comes from the idea that there is an unbelievable pool of talent out there that should be given a chance.
> 
> But then I started to read the comments and the bitterness and bitchyness in most of the responses to the winner (whom I’ve never met or heard off). And I thought, why even bother with this lot. They’ve already lost. They think music is a business when it’s a passion, they forget that putting hours or days in, is a luxury you’ll never have again when you’re on a deadline on a ‘proper’ job...
> but, mostly, it’s the lack of respect for someone’s moment of joy - where they should be celebrated - that got me.
> 
> so - carry on with your uninformed small minded criticism. it’s all here now in black and white for ever. The beauty of the internet. And as a reference of how i wouldn’t ever want to work with a single one of you. Nor you with me. Bad fit. It doesn’t even ever matter how good your music is or how smart you are... And since music and film-making are inherently collaborative, I can’t really see how any director will want to deal with that amount of entitlement and hubris.
> hz



I honestly hope HZ isn’t referring to any of my posts as "bitchy." 

My background is the theatre. When I direct a play or indie film, I do not "hire" any production people who are lazy, argumentative, intractable, or gossips. It's a hard thing to say, but collaboration is the name of the game. If you aren't malleable enough to be molded into the project, I can't use you. And I'm a complete nobody. 

The story/project dictates everybody's task, including the writer and director. You have to be porous enough to allow the story through the coral that is your creativity.


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> No they don’t. Control is an illusion in life regarding almost everything.


Oh ok then. Sounds a little too philosophical for my feeble mind.


----------



## Tom Haniff

SzPeti42 said:


> Oh yes, I remember that, I loved your entry, the added processing in the beginning to even have that characteristic 50s "effect" made me instantly smile  And the transition between that and the modern sound was pretty cool. Striking, but in a good way.


That's very kind. Thank you!


----------



## Lukegilson

I'm actually really glad that a chip tune song won. It was incredibly interesting, I heard various video game themes that I haven't heard in years. SO much nostalgia. There was sonic the hedgehog music from the sega version, mario coins, the whole nine! Sometimes it's hard for normal folk like me to appreciate the genius behind this piece, it took a few passes to really appreciate the nuances. Once you actually focus in on the sounds and think "why are they there?" it all starts to come together. Genius storing telling, kudos!

I can't wait to see what comes from David in the future. Congrats, and everyone have a good one


----------



## MartinH.

Keith Theodosiou said:


> I had 15 likes and 1 dislike. What's that all about? When i listen to another composers music, if i like it, i always thumbs up and comment on the piece. If i don't like it (which is not often) i don't comment and I NEVER leave a thumbs down.
> Why do that? Is it cos they think the judges won't pick a piece or even look at a piece if it has a thumbs down. Is that what they do, go on every entrant and give a thumbs down? Sick people, that really winds me up.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Michael Stibor said:


> Oh ok then. Sounds a little too philosophical for my feeble mind.


I’ll explain it more simply. Spend your life not drinking and not smoking and not doing drugs and you exercise regularly and are a positive upbeat person. Then out of no where at a young age you get a brain tumor and die 8 months later. How did your control mean anything?

Or, you are a hard working person and always do right by others, you are big hearted and generous and thoughtful and always put in extra hours to get the job done. As you drive home one night a drunk driver veers over the yellow line and hits you head on killing you instantly. How did all your control help you when none of us can stop that from happening?

I could go on and on about true stories.


----------



## Alex Niedt

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I’ll explain it more simply. Spend your life not drinking and not smoking and not doing drugs and you exercise regularly and are a positive upbeat person. Then out of no where at a young age you get a brain tumor and die 8 months later. How did your control mean anything?
> 
> Or, you are a hard working person and always do right by others, you are big hearted and generous and thoughtful and always put in extra hours to get the job done. As you drive home one night a drunk driver veers over the yellow line and hits you head on killing you instantly. How did all your control help you when none of us can stop that from happening?
> 
> I could go on and on about true stories.


Nothing in life is a guarantee, but living the way you've detailed certainly increases your likelihood for good health and success, so it is indeed a form of control. To dismiss it because of the possibility of random catastrophe is insanely defeatist.


----------



## jononotbono

Alex Niedt said:


> Nothing in life is a guarantee



Im not sure about that. It’s definitely a guarantee I’m going to be buying a new Spitfire sample library soon. 😂


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I’ll explain it more simply. Spend your life not drinking and not smoking and not doing drugs and you exercise regularly and are a positive upbeat person. Then out of no where at a young age you get a brain tumor and die 8 months later. How did your control mean anything?
> 
> Or, you are a hard working person and always do right by others, you are big hearted and generous and thoughtful and always put in extra hours to get the job done. As you drive home one night a drunk driver veers over the yellow line and hits you head on killing you instantly. How did all your control help you when none of us can stop that from happening?
> 
> I could go on and on about true stories.


Ok, then I did get it. I just don’t agree with that mentality. And before we get off track, I said _more_ control of your career, not complete control.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Michael Stibor said:


> Ok, then I did get it. I just don’t agree with that mentality. And before we get off track, I said _more_ control of your career, not complete control.


I agree with you, Michael, that we should all do our best and try to control what we can, but being in this biz for over 30 years has taught me personally that my talent, hard work, determination, charisma, positivity, magnanimity, devotion, persistence, collaborative zeal, passion and sincerity seem to mean nothing in that I can’t make success unfold when I want it to or when I’ve worked long and hard to get it to appear. It appears when it wants to despite anything I do. In my life, I get when I stop reaching for the metaphoric Apple 🍎 in my life and not when I’m focused with a plan and actional. Yes, one has to put one self out there and be as trained, poised, practiced and prepared as possible, but there is not the structure to becoming a composer like there is in most industries so unless you are an A-list composer’s apprentice, which is extremely hard to secure, there is no reliable path to build your career. It’s more like diving for pirate treasure, which is ridiculously challenging to succeed at.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Alex Niedt said:


> Nothing in life is a guarantee, but living the way you've detailed certainly increases your likelihood for good health and success, so it is indeed a form of control. To dismiss it because of the possibility of random catastrophe is insanely defeatist.


Alex, I do agree with you that ideally we must try our best and control what we can which I have always done. It just seems like all my efforts rarely bear fruit 🍉 no matter how much I try, prepare, do. I’m not defeatist, I’m simply aware of what has transpired.


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I agree with you, Michael, that we should all do our best and try to control what we can, but being in this biz for over 30 years has taught me personally that my talent, hard work, determination, charisma, positivity, magnanimity, devotion, persistence, collaborative zeal, passion and sincerity seem to mean nothing in that I can’t make success unfold when I want it to or when I’ve worked long and hard to get it to appear. It appears when it wants to despite anything I do. In my life, I get when I stop reaching for the metaphoric Apple 🍎 in my life and not when I’m focused with a plan and actional. Yes, one has to put one self out there and be as trained, poised, practiced and prepared as possible, but there is not the structure to becoming a composer like there is in most industries so unless you are an A-list composer’s apprentice, which is extremely hard to secure, there is no reliable path to build your career. It’s more like diving for pirate treasure, which is ridiculously challenging to succeed at.


Well I agree that there’s no clear path, unlike most professions where you go to school, and then enter the work force of your chosen field. (An over simplification, but still) 
And I kind of jumped on your statement about it all being a game of luck, but it wasn’t so much what YOU said, as much as just in general, musicians don’t think like other people do. Not a bad thing, but their business skills, and business mindset could use some improving. Again, not you, just in general.


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

MartinH. said:


>



Maybe it's just jealousy lol


----------



## Waywyn

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Why do that? Is it cos they think the judges won't pick a piece or even look at a piece if it has a thumbs down. Is that what they do, go on every entrant and give a thumbs down? Sick people, that really winds me up.



I recently had some composer telling me that he will vote down my videos on my YT channel with like 19 accounts he had. It turned out later, that this person organized an anonymous hacker group and paid them to "ruin my channel". In the end, they downvoted 5 of my videos with 30-50 dislikes.

I told him that the YouTube algorithm actually only cares about the activity on your channel. It doesn't matter if you receive likes or dislikes, appreciate it as someone boosting your channel. So the outcome was positive after all. After I told him, and also exposed him as a fake profile he used on Facebook and connected with over 300 people I've known, he disappeared. I have a "slight" hint of who that person was, but I'd rather keep that for me. I am not really sure if that person was really drop-dead stupid, but he told me that: He wanted to hurt my channel. *lulz*

What I am trying to say, there might be people being jealous, don't like your face or voice, simply disagree with something you have said or have written or simply love to bully people because they didn't learn it any other way and have problems to work out their personal shit and instead of going for others.

Even when I upload a video, I receive almost an instant dislike as if someone is just waiting out there that my new video comes up.

The best thing you could do is to appreciate people taking the time to interact with you. On my reaction video, I received over 200 likes but also around 75 dislikes. I am thankful for this all and keep going and learned to not take any of this personal.

I even received a few personally insulting comments and someone on my recent live stream popped up and spammed the channel with f*ck you and so on.

So in the end, just appreciate it all and know that you are heading in the right direction out there. Lots of weird people out there but sometimes it is just a little thing they are criticizing and their way to communicate is, is to vote down your video - without meaning any of it in a really negative way.

Almost everyone is going for that "I want to be a successful movie composer". I am convinced that some more famous or well-known composers on this forum can tell you that a few dislikes on your YT channel is just the beginning of the shitstorm that can and will happen once you are at a certain stage


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

Waywyn said:


> I recently had some composer telling me that he will vote down my videos on my YT channel with like 19 accounts he had. It turned out later, that this person organized an anonymous hacker group and paid them to "ruin my channel". In the end, they downvoted 5 of my videos with 30-50 dislikes.
> 
> I told him that the YouTube algorithm actually only cares about the activity on your channel. It doesn't matter if you receive likes or dislikes, appreciate it as someone boosting your channel. So the outcome was positive after all. After I told him, and also exposed him as a fake profile he used on Facebook and connected with over 300 people I've known, he disappeared. I have a "slight" hint of who that person was, but I'd rather keep that for me. I am not really sure if that person was really drop-dead stupid, but he told me that: He wanted to hurt my channel. *lulz*
> 
> What I am trying to say, there might be people being jealous, don't like your face or voice, simply disagree with something you have said or have written or simply love to bully people because they didn't learn it any other way and have problems to work out their personal shit and instead of going for others.
> 
> Even when I upload a video, I receive almost an instant dislike as if someone is just waiting out there that my new video comes up.
> 
> The best thing you could do is to appreciate people taking the time to interact with you. On my reaction video, I received over 200 likes but also around 75 dislikes. I am thankful for this all and keep going and learned to not take any of this personal.
> 
> I even received a few personally insulting comments and someone on my recent live stream popped up and spammed the channel with f*ck you and so on.
> 
> So in the end, just appreciate it all and know that you are heading in the right direction out there. Lots of weird people out there but sometimes it is just a little thing they are criticizing and their way to communicate is, is to vote down your video - without meaning any of it in a really negative way.
> 
> Almost everyone is going for that "I want to be a successful movie composer". I am convinced that some more famous or well-known composers on this forum can tell you that a few dislikes on your YT channel is just the beginning of the shitstorm that can and will happen once you are at a certain stage


Thanks for that Waywyn, I know that if you piss someone off on YouTube with a comment, they will go on your channel and dislike as many vid you posted as they can, that has happened before and i have seen the same thing happen to Christian Henson on his channel.

What gets me the most is, are these people composers too?
That makes me sad to think they are, most composers are usually intelligent kind warm hearted people. How can you wirte a beautiful piece one day then foul mouth someone then next day lol.

Oh well, we all live and learn i suppose.


----------



## Zedcars

All this talk about controlling one’s life/career, I’ll say something I doubt many people on here subscribe to; I don’t believe we are in control of anything. Control is an illusion. The universe seems to be entirely deterministic and there’s not a damn thing anyone can do about that. Yes, I just raised the free will debate. Now use your illusionary free will to ignore my tangential post. 😉


----------



## chocobitz825

Zedcars said:


> All this talk about controlling one’s life/career, I’ll say something I doubt many people on here subscribe to; I don’t believe we are in control of anything. Control is an illusion. The universe seems to be entirely deterministic and there’s not a damn thing anyone can do about that. Yes, I just raised the free will debate. Now use your illusionary free will to ignore my tangential post. 😉



I feel suddenly compelled to reply...


----------



## zolhof

Waywyn said:


> I recently had some composer telling me that he will vote down my videos on my YT channel with like 19 accounts he had. It turned out later, that this person organized an anonymous hacker group and paid them to "ruin my channel". In the end, they downvoted 5 of my videos with 30-50 dislikes.
> 
> I told him that the YouTube algorithm actually only cares about the activity on your channel. It doesn't matter if you receive likes or dislikes, appreciate it as someone boosting your channel. So the outcome was positive after all. After I told him, and also exposed him as a fake profile he used on Facebook and connected with over 300 people I've known, he disappeared. I have a "slight" hint of who that person was, but I'd rather keep that for me. I am not really sure if that person was really drop-dead stupid, but he told me that: He wanted to hurt my channel. *lulz*
> 
> What I am trying to say, there might be people being jealous, don't like your face or voice, simply disagree with something you have said or have written or simply love to bully people because they didn't learn it any other way and have problems to work out their personal shit and instead of going for others.
> 
> Even when I upload a video, I receive almost an instant dislike as if someone is just waiting out there that my new video comes up.
> 
> The best thing you could do is to appreciate people taking the time to interact with you. On my reaction video, I received over 200 likes but also around 75 dislikes. I am thankful for this all and keep going and learned to not take any of this personal.
> 
> I even received a few personally insulting comments and someone on my recent live stream popped up and spammed the channel with f*ck you and so on.
> 
> So in the end, just appreciate it all and know that you are heading in the right direction out there. Lots of weird people out there but sometimes it is just a little thing they are criticizing and their way to communicate is, is to vote down your video - without meaning any of it in a really negative way.
> 
> Almost everyone is going for that "I want to be a successful movie composer". I am convinced that some more famous or well-known composers on this forum can tell you that a few dislikes on your YT channel is just the beginning of the shitstorm that can and will happen once you are at a certain stage



YouTube can be both an amazing platform and a truly nasty place. I met a lot of cool people and made some unexpected connections because of that website. I always had fun doing videos and, despite the positive reaction, there's also the occasional troll that will try to ruin your day. I soon realized that it's pointless to care. Trolls feed off attention. I don't interact with them, I don't acknowledge them, I just hit block and move on. I think it's unfair to waste any energy with haters when there are so many nice people taking their time to leave thoughtful comments. Those are the ones that matter and are with you for the long haul.


----------



## MartinH.

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Maybe it's just jealousy lol



Don't overthink it, just be happy it's _just _dislikes. By internet-fame-standards that's a blessing in disguise.
Those interactions are hard to understand and often the one on the other end didn't put half as much thought into it as you'll do. I remember a story of a gamedeveloper who got a really mean e-mail and answered to it, and got a confused reply along lines of "I had already forgotten again I wrote this?! lol".





Zedcars said:


> All this talk about controlling one’s life/career, I’ll say something I doubt many people on here subscribe to; I don’t believe we are in control of anything. Control is an illusion. The universe seems to be entirely deterministic and there’s not a damn thing anyone can do about that. Yes, I just raised the free will debate. Now use your illusionary free will to ignore my tangential post. 😉



Either there is free will or there isn't. If you can choose to think that you have power to influence the course of your life, you should choose to do that. If there is free will, it's the smart thing to choose, if there isn't, there is no "choice" to begin with. I'm totally open to the possibility of the universe being deterministic, but I see zero benefit to _acting _as if that's true.


----------



## Waywyn

zolhof said:


> YouTube can be both an amazing platform and a truly nasty place. I met a lot of cool people and made some unexpected connections because of that website. I always had fun doing videos and, despite the positive reaction, there's also the occasional troll that will try to ruin your day. I soon realized that it's pointless to care. Trolls feed off attention. I don't interact with them, I don't acknowledge them, I just hit block and move on. I think it's unfair to waste any energy with haters when there are so many nice people taking their time to leave thoughtful comments. Those are the ones that matter and are with you for the long haul.



Yep, totally get that. Of course, the following only makes sense when you really want to build a huge community on YouTube, but even if someone trolls me out there, I am simply thankful for the comment and reply. Nothing big, maybe just "Hugs, and thank you for your time!" :D ... or maybe ask a question again to trigger activity.

I think it isn't the best way to go and block users because I am not sure how to the YT algorithm will react to this when you simply block. Again, this just makes sense when you want to get somewhere with your channel, but yes, ... it is very important to not surround yourself with negativity too much so I understand at some point that blocking users may be the best solution.


----------



## Waywyn

Keith Theodosiou said:


> What gets me the most is, are these people composers too?
> That makes me sad to think they are, most composers are usually intelligent kind warm hearted people. How can you wirte a beautiful piece one day then foul mouth someone then next day lol.



Yes, I feel the same and neither get it sometimes, .. but after experiencing so much weird shit in this industry, I know that lots of them are just playing a game, and once challenged they leave their masks behind. I know my buds, but I also know the weirdos!


----------



## Waywyn

Zedcars said:


> All this talk about controlling one’s life/career, I’ll say something I doubt many people on here subscribe to; I don’t believe we are in control of anything. Control is an illusion. The universe seems to be entirely deterministic and there’s not a damn thing anyone can do about that. Yes, I just raised the free will debate. Now use your illusionary free will to ignore my tangential post. 😉



Oh, I love that stuff soooo much! My motto is: Live in't about finding yourself, life is about creating yourself ... but at the same time ... how much control does a coffee cup has, when you toss it down the edge of your table and the particles splatter across your floor :D


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

Waywyn said:


> Yes, I feel the same and neither get it sometimes, .. but after experiencing so much weird shit in this industry, I know that lots of them are just playing a game, and once challenged they leave their masks behind. I know my buds, but I also know the weirdos!



This world is full of weird people and in my time on this planet, i have seen more than i want to see lmao.
I just hope i never turn into one ha ha


----------



## Zedcars

MartinH. said:


> Don't overthink it, just be happy it's _just _dislikes. By internet-fame-standards that's a blessing in disguise.
> Those interactions are hard to understand and often the one on the other end didn't put half as much thought into it as you'll do. I remember a story of a gamedeveloper who got a really mean e-mail and answered to it, and got a confused reply along lines of "I had already forgotten again I wrote this?! lol".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either there is free will or there isn't. If you can choose to think that you have power to influence the course of your life, you should choose to do that. If there is free will, it's the smart thing to choose, if there isn't, there is no "choice" to begin with. I'm totally open to the possibility of the universe being deterministic, but I see zero benefit to _acting _as if that's true.


Actually, I’ve found there is a huuuuge benefit. It’s actually made me a less angry person, and less inclined to get angry or feel hatred, because I see the motivations for people behaving the way they do can be traced to other sources beyond a person’s own free will to do something bad. That of course opens up a whole can of worms and is pretty much at odds with how society is set up. But I feel I’m way off base from this thread’s topic, so perhaps I’ll just end by saying all of those people angry at David for just doing his own thing and entering a competition are so misguided for a raft of reasons (and are probably just angry at themselves if you dig deeper). If they stopped to think about it, it’s completely absurd to feel that way since, free will or no free will, that decision was out of their control.


----------



## MartinH.

Zedcars said:


> Actually, I’ve found there is a huuuuge benefit. It’s actually made me a less angry person, and less inclined to get angry or feel hatred, because I see the motivations for people behaving the way they do can be traced to other sources beyond a person’s own free will to do something bad.



That's a very good point and a great attitude to have! But _if _there's free will, imho you should be able to _chose_ to take that relaxed approach to other people's reactions. And I think this is essentially what you're doing already, and that's great!


----------



## simonbaxter

christianhenson said:


> Well don't ever accuse me of not being a massive glutton for punishment!



I'm a bit late to the party, but I thought this video was the most helpful commentary on this whole thing. This was one competition. The judges made a call and lots of people didn't like it. That's all that happened. This isn't some conspiracy. Christian is being honest about the experience of being a composer and the frustration you will encounter if you're going to survive this business. People in charge don't always make the right calls, but just because you or I think it should've gone a different way doesn't mean we're right either. If you're a composer for film and television you're always working for someone else, which means you never get the final say. If we can't stomach disagreeing with the outcome of this competition, it'll probably be difficult to stomach feedback we disagree with from a director/client/etc. And that's a good way to block your own career from progressing. Nobody wants to hire someone who can't take feedback.


----------



## gordinho

I know I am late to the party, but Congrats for the winning entry, a refreshing take on scoring. I am thrilled to see creativity being rewarded


----------



## Consona

simonbaxter said:


> Nobody wants to hire someone who can't take feedback.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

Comments on YouTube, social media, forums, and the internet in general, are like scribblings in public spaces. Maybe it's a good scribble and you scribble something back but generally don't take things _too_ seriously, especially if the public space happens to be a toilet.



Waywyn said:


> I think it isn't the best way to go and block users because I am not sure how to the YT algorithm will react to this when you simply block. Again, this just makes sense when you want to get somewhere with your channel, but yes, ... it is very important to not surround yourself with negativity too much so I understand at some point that blocking users may be the best solution.



I agree. Blocking is a surefire way of getting trapped in an echo chamber, and circlejerk echo chambers are not healthy for creative individuals. Occasional banter, disagreements and trash talk is good for life.


----------



## Dale Turner

Jay Panikkar said:


> Comments on YouTube, social media, forums, and the internet in general, are like scribblings in public spaces. Maybe it's a good scribble and you scribble something back but generally don't take things _too_ seriously, especially if the public space happens to be a toilet.
> 
> I agree. Blocking is a surefire way of getting trapped in an echo chamber, and circlejerk echo chambers are not healthy for creative individuals. Occasional banter, disagreements and trash talk is good for life.



Totally don't understand why people ever "disable comments" on their videos... Just let it roll. If you put it up, live with it. Otherwise why bother? 

Only time I've ever deleted comments... I have a video I made of my daughter when she was maybe eight months old... about a way to you help battle COLIC... (a trick I learned from a friend of mine...) and I've had a few comments that were so horrifying, about wishing to do harm to her, calling her ugly... I wanted to put those pricks down, of course... and do much worse than just deleting their comments. But it was probably some thirteen-year-old moron, just firing keystrokes into the air like a thumb-twiddling twit.


----------



## ghobii

The only thing you really have control over, is how you choose to react to any situation.
As Jack Flanders would say - "What appears to be coming at you, is coming from you."


----------



## Rossy

brynolf said:


> Totally unrelated question...
> 
> Didn't participate in the contest. But is it still ok to try scoring the scene and upload it just for fun (would realistically take me about a year, if I ever got around to it)? Or is the clip now verboten, due to the contest being over?


That's exactly what I did.


----------



## Rossy

AndyP said:


> Should I ever enter a competition, I can only hope not to win, or nobody will take notice.


I still think the vast majority of people dont have an issue with the composition, its mostly about weather it fit the scene or not. Keep entering, you cant please everyone.


----------



## Rossy

FinGael said:


> I thought that it would be nice to have another competition like this in the future, but even without the negativity that followed, it would be challenging to organize such, because the amount of entries was so huge.
> 
> I guessed the amount of entries would be something like 300-500. But 11000. Huh. I would not wish, even for my worst enemy (I thankfully think such does not even exist), to have to use their precious and limited time to listen to 500 entries of the same several minute long clip.


I think it a great idea to have these competitions and maybe not to actually win a product but maybe to have it featured on the hosts website. Its hard to get scenes without the sound track so this is also a plus. Maybe no professionals or someone working full time in the industry (but I'm sure there would be complaints about that) 

I listened to a lot of the entries and although I didn't agree with the choice of the winning entry, it definitely opened my ears to other people's interpretation of the scene. More like this please, maybe not by spitfire though.😁😁


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Rossy said:


> I still think the vast majority of people dont have an issue with the composition, its mostly about weather it fit the scene or not. Keep entering, you cant please everyone.


No one is ever gonna think the winner of the contest should have won, especially if they entered themselves. It doesn’t matter what the reason is. People have to understand that life is not fair, talent and merit do not mean anything. You can be an A-list film and tv composer and that may or may not have anything to do with how talented you are or how hard you are working. Too many people with talent who work very hard are not making it as composers in film and tv. There is no reason why either except life is unfair and about luck more than one can fathom.


----------



## method1

After finally watching the actual episode in full, I think the wining entry is pretty much on brief.

The original episode featured some jarring changes in score from the usual style to Wagner's "flight of the valkyries" and then to Lai's "theme from love story" - I found it a bit comical & conceptually awkward, it totally pulled me out of the story. So from that point of view, against the actual episode, I think the winner nailed it.


----------



## Rossy

Myles McLeod said:


> I suppose the directorial decision that took place initially in Westworld for this particular scene, with the use of 'Ride Of The Valkyries', was controversial from the onset. It was almost like a huge reference to the Blues Brothers car chase which is also accompanied by the same piece of music.
> 
> I think what some (not all) viewers and composers find difficult when watching the original Westworld scene is that the visual experience does not reference Caleb's hallucinations enough. We do not see the car chase visually through Caleb's perspective enough to warrant a score that is entirely designed to solely focus on Caleb's discombobulated experience.
> 
> For some of us, that clash of two worlds, isn't pulled off very well, as the music takes over and becomes the story. Now that isn't necessarily a bad thing of course, it is an artistic decision, a bold one that the creators have taken and have obviously sought for in this competition. But for some of us, moments, for instance, with the exterior shots of the car chase clashed uncomfortably (and not in a 'Reservoir Dogs' kind of way) with the music. It forces the viewer in that instance, to disengage with the viewing experience, to workout why the music is so at odds with what is going on. You then quite obviously take note of the music for the rest of the scene, as it becomes the centre of attention as you try to convince yourself that it is working smoothly, connecting the music and the action to Caleb's outer experience.
> In other words, the viewer is having to work to tie everything together for it to make sense.
> 
> Now usually that musical effect works well and you'll find that the viewer quickly falls into place with it, but because Caleb seems relatively functional and because the scene references his hallucination in only small, ambiguous doses, that juxtaposition for some of us, falls short of what it is trying to achieve.
> Now had they used diegetic music to begin with, by showing a radio being turned on to introduce Wagner, then I think that would have stuck a bit better.
> 
> This is why I believe people are struggling to swallow the judges decision making. They sought the same sort of storytelling that their original music provided from us composers in this competition, but some of us personally felt that their original use of music and way of storytelling did not quite feel right and so chose to score it differently.
> 
> Having said all that, I am 100% on your side. We should be celebrating everybody's effort and work and appreciate all of the wonderful, creative approaches that we, all, collectively achieved.
> 
> Hatred and negativity is not constructive and not healthy for anyone involved, nor should David have to bear such animosity. Healthy feedback on the other hand, should be welcomed and discussions with healthy feedback in mind about Spitfire's Competition and the way it was run should also be welcomed. It was their first go at a competition and I think they bit off more than they could chew with 11,000 submissions, but they did provide us all with a lovely opportunity to brush up on our skills, to provide us (up and coming composers) with something to showcase and to learn from.
> 
> It is truly fascinating looking at how one scene can be interpreted in so many different and imaginative ways. So I do urge you sir to put your frustrations and disappointment to one side and to take a moment to enjoy other people's creations. There are some truly magnificent works to explore.
> 
> It is also an opportunity for even the most seasoned composer to learn something new, as every brain holds something different and exciting to learn from.


I agree, the people who are just bitching for bitching sake need to check their ego's at the door. The people who have a well thought out, constructive opinion on why they felt the composition didn't work with the scene should have the right to voice their opinion. Where does it say you cant disagree with HBO/spitfire audio's choice? That's what make this whole thing good to read. There just opinions, David won, if the hosts thought it was the best fit for that scene, its there products to give away. Dont let the loud mouth jealous people stop us from having a structured discussion, it's what makes the world go around.


----------



## jaketanner

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> No one is ever gonna think the winner of the contest should have won, especially if they entered themselves. It doesn’t matter what the reason is


Simply not true.. As composers we need to give credit where credit is due. If someone had a better composition, I will be the first to admit it personally and the ones that hate or criticize BECAUSE they simply didn't win are never going to make it...But I strongly believe that the gripes here had nothing at all to do with people's jealousy or anger that they didn't win...it's a whole other reason which I won't get in to.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

jaketanner said:


> Simply not true.. As composers we need to give credit where credit is due. If someone had a better composition, I will be the first to admit it personally and the ones that hate or criticize BECAUSE they simply didn't win are never going to make it...But I strongly believe that the gripes here had nothing at all to do with people's jealousy or anger that they didn't win...it's a whole other reason which I won't get in to.


Dude, did you listen to 11,000 submissions? Of course you did not. So how in the world would you know if that was the best one or not? And what you may think is the best one has nothing to do with what someone else thinks is the best, it’s all entirely subjective. Such is life. I’m not upset at all with David winning but I would not have selected his entry if I were the judge. Someone was going to win, these things tend to be random. I don’t think it’s healthy for anyone to openly complain about who won. It’s unlikely for anyone to win when there are that many entries. No one said life is fair so those complaining need to just suck it up and stop being publicly upset.


----------



## jaketanner

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Dude, did you listen to 11,000 submissions? Of course you did not. So how in the world would you know if that was the best one or not? And what you may think is the best one has nothing to do with what someone else thinks is the best, it’s all entirely subjective. Such is life. I’m not upset at all with David winning but I would not have selected his entry if I were the judge. Someone was going to win, these things tend to be random.


Did I say anything about David’s entry or listening to all submissions or even that I thought it was the best, not sure where you even got that, and no I did not think it's the best by any means, but that really is irrelevant as per my post. 

My comment was specifically referring to your comment I quoted. Nothing to do with the actual entry. My point was that not everyone thinks the winner didn't deserve it just because they lost.


----------



## filipjonathan

Why are we still talking about this people?!


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

I think another competition is definalely out the window now.


----------



## EasterIslandStatue

I'm new here - but was wondering if threads are ever locked in these situations? 

Seems like just pointless back and forth bickering now and is quite depressing. 

I'm surprised this is still going strong at the top of 'Sample Talk'


----------



## nspaas

I just don't get it.

AFIK, the contest went off without a problem:

1. Contest (free) was advertised.
2. 11000 entries.
3. Correct winner was selected. (ie: The entry the *judges* thought should win)
4. Everybody be happy and move on.

See? No problem!


----------



## Michael Stibor

filipjonathan said:


> Why are we still talking about this people?!


Personally, it’s because I find it more interesting than pretty much every other thread here, which is basically “hey which product should I consume next?”.

I get it, I’m no different. I like buying libraries too. But at least this one has some passion on both “sides”. Though I agree that it’s getting a bit redundant at this point.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

nspaas said:


> I just don't get it.
> 
> AFIK, the contest went off without a problem:
> 
> 1. Contest (free) was advertised.
> 2. 11000 entries.
> 3. Correct winner was selected. (ie: The entry the *judges* thought should win)
> 4. Everybody be happy and move on.
> 
> See? No problem!



Exactly! And even _if_ it was "rigged", so what? It was free to enter, and you get to use your scored Westworld clip as part or your portfolio. Plus, I've gained a lot of respect for a ton of forum members, as I didn't realize there was this amount immense talent in the world! Win win.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Wolfie2112 said:


> Exactly! And even _if_ it was "rigged", so what? It was free to enter, and you get to use your scored Westworld clip as part or your portfolio. Plus, I've gained a lot of respect for a ton of forum members, as I didn't realize there was this amount immense talent in the world! Win win.


Well said


----------



## Michael Stibor

nspaas said:


> I just don't get it.
> 
> AFIK, the contest went off without a problem:
> 
> 1. Contest (free) was advertised.
> 2. 11000 entries.
> 3. Correct winner was selected. (ie: The entry the *judges* thought should win)
> 4. Everybody be happy and move on.
> 
> See? No problem!


Where’s the fun in that? There’s a lot that can be discussed between what you said, and “I hate Spitfire, and I hate the winning entry!” 
I mean there was like a million posts speculating on what Spitfire’s “game changer” was going to be, even though they all meant nothing.

Why did not one say “We’ll find out when it comes out, move on!” then?


----------



## Michael Stibor

Wolfie2112 said:


> Exactly! And even _if_ it was "rigged", so what?


That’s a joke, right?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Michael Stibor said:


> That’s a joke, right?



Do I think it was rigged? Of course not. And if anyone thinks it was, they have zero evidence. This was not a US presidential election, it was scoring contest. People need to move on.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Wolfie2112 said:


> Do I think it was rigged? Of course not. And if anyone thinks it was, they have zero evidence. This was not a US presidential election, it was scoring contest. People need to move on.


I don’t think it was rigged either. That wasn’t what I quoted. But if a contest is rigged (ANY contest), you think that that would be ok, provided that you got a free clip to score to?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Michael Stibor said:


> I don’t think it was rigged either. That wasn’t what I quoted. But if a contest is rigged (ANY contest), you think that that would be ok, provided that you got a free clip to score to?



It would be crappy to learn it was rigged, of course. But what would you have lost, regardless (in this case)? Nothing. We all gained from it in some form or another. Otherwise, it's wasted energy that could have been spent being creative.


----------



## Rossy

Keith Theodosiou said:


> I think another competition is definalely out the window now.


Thats really sad


----------



## Zedcars

Keith Theodosiou said:


> I think another competition is definalely out the window now.


After the dust has settled and time has passed I’d be very surprised if they would let the Moaning Minnie’s and Negative Nelly’s affect their decision to run another one or not. They’re called Spitfire - they don’t fly away at the first sight of anti-aircraft fire, they face it head on, and continue to spearhead other successful missions. The way to win against negativity is to carry on towards your destination; don’t let flak turn you back.

Legitimate constructive criticism, both from one’s own mind and that of others, can be hugely valuable. But most of those negative voices were not constructive, they were destructive—motivated by the worst kinds of human emotions. Don’t let them win. Use their words against them by becoming even more determined and steadfast.


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

Zedcars said:


> After the dust has settled and time has passed I’d be very surprised if they would let the Moaning Minnie’s and Negative Nelly’s affect their decision to run another one or not. They’re called Spitfire - they don’t fly away at the first sight of anti-aircraft fire, they face it head on, and continue to spearhead other successful missions. The way to win against negativity is to carry on towards your destination; don’t let flak turn you back.
> 
> Legitimate constructive criticism, both from one’s own mind and that of others, can be hugely valuable. But most of those negative voices were not constructive, they were destructive—motivated by the worst kinds of human emotions. Don’t let them win. Use their words against them by becoming even more determined and steadfast.


I hope so, I can honestly say i am embarrassed to be classed in the same cat as some of these people as i did enter that competition.
After everything that Spitfire do for the community and they where treated like that.

I hope they do carry on giving us these moments of fun


----------



## ned3000

I hope they do another one as well. As others have pointed out, having a deadline is great motivation to write and complete something. I found the process very rewarding. I've also found the controversy weirdly educational; seeing the different reactions has made me reflect on attitudes to strive for and those to avoid.

Also, if the Spitfire guys are reading: one result is that I'm thinking about buying SSO now. Having a chance (however improbable) of winning that got me thinking about it/looking into it.


----------



## NYC Composer

Keith Theodosiou said:


> After everything that Spitfire do for the community and they where treated like that.


For the sake of reasoned debate-what is it that the community does for Spitfire in return?


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

NYC Composer said:


> For the sake of reasoned debate-what is it that the community does for Spitfire in return?


First of all, they provide us with valuable composer content of the highest quality. Yes we pay for that content but they are a business.
They have run contests before, they don't have to do that but they do.
Their tutorials are very good and enlightening.
We have the Pianobook comunnity which if you think about it, a guy that owns a huge sample library business, helps us to create free sample libraries for all to use. He didn't have to do that.
He also created the Music by 300 Strangers massive collaboration that i thourally enjoyed working on.
They interview many high porifile composers for us to watch and learn.
They have thew LABS collection that are all free.
They have the BBCSO Discovery library which is also free both of which help young composers that haven't got two pence to rub together have a great start in their endevours.
I could prob go on and on and half of what they do the the community i prob don't know.
That was just off the top of my head.


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

NYC Composer said:


> For the sake of reasoned debate-what is it that the community does for Spitfire in return?


Sorry, i mis read your post. I thought it said what do they do for the community.

All i can say is we interact with whatever they do for us and a lot of us are pretty loyal to them and their products.


----------



## Arthur Lewis

NYC Composer said:


> For the sake of reasoned debate-what is it that the community does for Spitfire in return?


I know I read a post from Mike about this recently, but I can’t seem to find it. I think the main thing is advertising and customers. I’d guess this is the closest thing a company like Spitfire is gonna find to a room full of all their potential customers. So in addition to the advertising they pay for, they get the benefit of customers who own their products advertising them for free to potential customers.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Rossy said:


> Thats really sad


I think contest was so successful that when enough time passes they will do another one.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

jaketanner said:


> Did I say anything about David’s entry or listening to all submissions or even that I thought it was the best, not sure where you even got that, and no I did not think it's the best by any means, but that really is irrelevant as per my post.
> 
> My comment was specifically referring to your comment I quoted. Nothing to do with the actual entry. My point was that not everyone thinks the winner didn't deserve it just because they lost.


You are absolutely correct. My apologies 🍾 I agree with you that many people probably think he deserved to win, or at least I hope that’s true. It really doesn’t matter who won, unless of course you are that winner. What matters is that people who entered now have the practice of scoring to picture if they haven’t done that before and a new piece of work to add to their reel. No one really lost in this regard as unlike most contests there was no entry fee.


----------



## Zedcars

And free market research.


----------



## NYC Composer

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Sorry, i mis read your post. I thought it said what do they do for the community.
> 
> All i can say is we interact with whatever they do for us and a lot of us are pretty loyal to them and their products.


There is certainly no debate necessary about that.

Thank you for mis-reading my post-your response made my day


----------



## Leslie Fuller

Keith Theodosiou said:


> I have been composing since i was about 17. I have come close to the music business on a few occations but for some reason didn't pan out for me.
> Yes heartache as most composers strive to make it somehow in that business.
> Now, i too am an old fart lol and now, i don't kid myself that i'm ever going to make it.
> I am very happy with the music i compose now. It is not brilliant, it is not very technical but i get by.
> 
> My main goal has always been just for people to listen to and hopefully enjoy my music. That is what all composers really want. To have their music liked.
> 
> Entering competions is a great way to get your music heard and that's all it should be.
> I have only ever been a runner up in a competion once and that was in the 80's, Midge Ure was one of the judges. I won an autographed copy of Ultravox's The Collection by the band.
> To me, i had won. Not only did my music get heard but as a bonus, i got a prize too.
> 
> I wasn't expecting that so it was a great surprise and i am sure @David Kudell felt the same as the winner.
> 
> All the people that are bitching, did they REALLY expect to win?
> 
> Just upload your music and hope that people like what you created.
> 
> My entry has 215 views and 17 comments, all good and i am happy with that. People liked what i did.
> I had 15 likes and 1 dislike. What's that all about? When i listen to another composers music, if i like it, i always thumbs up and comment on the piece. If i don't like it (which is not often) i don't comment and I NEVER leave a thumbs down.
> Why do that? Is it cos they think the judges won't pick a piece or even look at a piece if it has a thumbs down. Is that what they do, go on every entrant and give a thumbs down? Sick people, that really winds me up.
> 
> Music for me is passion, i love it, i can't stop creating it, it is an addiction but most of all, i am greatfull that i have that addiction.
> 
> As far as cometitions go, just enter and enjoy the process.
> 
> As far as this competition goes, to all of us that didn't win or be a runner up....
> 
> This is not the competition you where looking for...
> You may go about your business....
> Move along....Move along!
> 
> As an afterthought, there are only two pieces of music that have ever brought tears to my eyes.
> One is The 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky
> The other is
> 
> 
> 
> Chevaliers de Sangreal by Hans Zimmer
> 
> 
> That is when you know you have touched someone's soul!



From another old fart, wise words Keith!


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

Leslie Fuller said:


> From another old fart, wise words Keith!


Thanks Leslie!


----------



## Leslie Fuller

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Sorry, i mis read your post. I thought it said what do they do for the community.
> 
> All i can say is we interact with whatever they do for us and a lot of us are pretty loyal to them and their products.



Classic misreading Keith!

To misuse the old Monty Python “Romans” sketch:

Reg: 'All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health ... what have (*Spitfire Audio*) the Romans ever done for us?'


----------



## Rossy

I think it maybe better for non software companies to hold a competition and maybe the movie industry or others like them to do this. The only reward would be a showcase of the winner on their website. Not sure how they would get any gain from it, maybe advertising revenue but I think companies like spitfire should stay out so you can minimise the bias.just a thought.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Rossy said:


> I think it maybe better for non software companies to hold a competition and maybe the movie industry or others like them to do this. The only reward would be a showcase of the winner on their website. Not sure how they would get any gain from it, maybe advertising revenue but I think companies like spitfire should stay out so you can minimise the bias.just a thought.


Why is it problematicissimo for Spitfire to do a contest? This competition was a blockbuster success for them. I totally relate to anyone entering the contest that did not win and got let down. However, don’t share your feelings about how upset you are about that with the public or social media. Keep it to yourself. This forum is not about puking 🤮 up every complaint one has about anything and everything in life. For that one must talk to your dog or pet or find a therapist, though most of those people are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!!


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Leslie Fuller said:


> Classic misreading Keith!
> 
> To misuse the old Monty Python “Romans” sketch:
> 
> Reg: 'All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health ... what have (*Spitfire Audio*) the Romans ever done for us?'


Lest ye naught forget that the Rrrrrrrrromans brushed their teeth 🦷 with urine 🧐 So when they say “when in Rome...” perhaps one should pass on that moment 🤔


----------



## Zinovia A.

charlieclouser said:


> People out there on teh interwebz are acting like this was a contest to find a cure for cancer, and the winning vaccine not only doesn't cure cancer, but also causes your left leg to fall off and is made from ground-up orphan brains.
> 
> Even if someone was the composer on a show like Westworld, totally knew the context that the genre change thing needed to fit into, and received a detailed brief from the show runners, that brief would probably be.... brief. Something like, "When he goes into the genre shift, we need to call that out with the score somehow, it needs to swerve off the road a little bit. See what you can come up with." Getting even that paltry amount of specificity would be like winning the spotting session lottery, tbh.
> 
> I usually get about this much instruction: "Make it scary." Actually, that's about two syllables more than I usually got on a show I scored for 110 episodes - the show runner like to only give me three-syllable instructions: "Make it dark." "Big fun time." "Make us cry." "He's bad ass." etc. In this case, he'd have said, "Genre shift." "He trips out." "Brain fart time." "Take chances" or just "Go wild, man."
> 
> Plus, you know the producers are already telling the music supervisor to find possible needle-drop candidates, tracks ranging from Arvo Part to ZZ Top, to have in their pocket just in case - and you're also going to do a more "normal" cue as an ALT so you won't have to scramble if your weird-o idea doesn't get smiles all around.
> 
> So you're sitting there, puzzling over how to "swerve off the road" with only a half-day to do it, so you mess around with some chip-tune sounds and think to yourself, "I wonder if..." but you don't want to spend too much time on it and leave yourself not enough time to do an alt version, let alone the other thirty cues in that episode. So you spend the evening throwing together a version based on your off-the-wall, spur-of-the-moment idea, and you stick it in the pile. I see one of four likely outcomes:
> 
> - "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's pretty far out. But we all loved it. Risky but we're using it."
> 
> - "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's too far out. We're going with the alt which sounds like the chase cue from episode four."
> 
> - "Wow you really swerved off the road on that one! Cool idea but it's just a little bit too far out. Is there a way to take some of the crazy elements from it and integrate them into the alt? Like just a few of those sounds over top of the chase cue from episode four?"
> 
> - "Oh, didn't anybody tell you? We decided to use the Arvo Part track layered with the ZZ Top song."
> 
> In any of those cases, the minimum acceptable response is: "Huh.... Oh well, that works."
> 
> And even that smacks of grumpiness and butt-hurt-ery. An even more acceptable response would be, "Cool. Any thoughts on the cue for the end of reel three?"
> 
> I am surprised that this type of response is so rare in the flood of comments, or why so many are willing to go on record with petty protestations, lamentations, and accusations of nepotism, rule-bending, or incompetent judging. After all, it's their show and their contest, they can pick whatever music they want for it, for whatever reason, and they owe no composer or anybody else any explanation or justification - just like it would be in a real-world professional situation.
> 
> I knew there would be a zillion people whose dream is to work in a real-world professional situation, but I'm surprised that there are a zillion people whose attitudes are so far away from what would actually *work* in a real-world professional situation that they will never in a zillion years work in a real-world professional situation.




Couldn't have said it better. 

(- "Oh, didn't anybody tell you? We decided to use the Arvo Part track layered with the ZZ Top song." LOL! )


----------



## charlieclouser

Yes, it's another long read - but there's a point if you make it all the way to the end.

Few give Spitfire the benefit of the doubt on their motives, but I do. I've been good friends with Christian, Paul, Harry, Stanley, and a few more of them for a bunch of years now, and I've had more than a few long days (and long dinners!) with them - so this isn't just me guessing based on stuff I read on the internet, this is all coming from close personal experience:

- Not everyone and every decision is driven by a desire for more market share, more customers, more money. Spitfire has got more customers and products than they need in order to keep their company of seventy-plus employees a "going concern". 

- They spend a lot of time and effort on products that are decidedly "niche", and probably don't make any sort of economic sense in terms of money spent on development vs sales revenue. How many of you paid full pop for Euphone and Scraped Percussion? I did, but I'm a "niche" composer and a sound/sample fanatic who's willing to spend whatever just to taste the sweet sweet nectar of a sound I've never heard before. (I also pay no attention to how much money I spend on sounds and software, but that's another discussion!) Even their more mainstream products veer strongly to the left - Evo Grids, Whitacre, etc. aren't what you buy if you're doing "epic trailer" tracks, and their oft-criticized love of the soft flautando aren't going to be heard in a Two Steps From Hell soundalike any time soon. So why would they spend all that time/money/effort on these niche products? Because they genuinely want to hear and use those sounds, want to reward and appreciate the sonic and musical innovators whose work they respect, and hope (perhaps naively) that there will be others out there who do as well; hopefully enough who will pony up the price so it's not too big of a loss for their company.

- Whether you believe it or not, there IS a wholesome motivation behind a lot of the stuff they do, whether it's Piano Book, Labs, tutorials, the free/cheap versions of BBCSO, templates, those "Salons" they put on a while back, or Christian's wacky YouTube channel. While that stuff might expand their reach, grow their customer base, etc., none of it is by any means a sure bet, or a move dictated solely by sneaky strategic marketing. Lots of folks will download Labs and Piano Book and the free BBCSO, and will happily use that stuff and never spend more than a few bucks on actual paid Spitfire products. In fact, I'd guess that their "conversion rate" of people who come for all of the free stuff and wind up spending thousands is so low that the end result is a net loss of time, effort, and money on Spitfire's part.

- It would be so much simpler, and save them hundreds of thousands of $/£/€, just *not* to do *any* of that stuff, and simply do what every other library developer does: release a product, make one walkthrough and one tutorial video, offer a reduced introductory price, send out an email blast, and move on to the next. That business model certainly seems to work just fine for developers both large and small.

- None of the other big players in this space do anywhere near the amount of extracurriculars that Spitfire does. Sure, some of them flirt with the idea or make token efforts like releasing a few freebies as a very thinly-disguised way to harvest email addresses for their next promotional email blast, but none of them even approach the level of "community involvement" that Spitfire does.

- Besides the ridiculous planning and recording logistics involved in acquiring signal to tape, the editing and programming work involved in turning a ProTools session of single-note recordings into a playable, sellable product is IMMENSE, and has only grown more so over the years as more articulations and mic positions have become the norm, resulting in a logistic/production/IT nightmare, and a "smart" businessman would have tried to find ways to shave costs at every turn long ago. Outsource the recording to buy-out sessions in Eastern Europe? Outsource the sample editing to Mumbai? All of these would have been on the table if this was simply a money grabbing operation.

So... *why*? Why doesn't every developer do it the Spitfire way? Is it solely because Spitfire are so successful that they have deep cash reserves that nobody else has? And, if so, why aren't Paul and Christian just stacking the chips and preparing to fold up shop when the cash meter hits some pre-determined red line? Don't you think they've got enough cash already? I mean, *why* do they even *BOTHER*?

You'd be forgiven for assuming I'm naive, but after 35 years of fending off attempts to screw me over in every facet of the music industry (with mixed results) I can confidently say "I may be a lot of things but naive I ain't."

I really think that most of what's behind Spirfire's motivation to do all this "other stuff" is a genuine love for the craft and a wholesome enthusiasm for what they do, what other composers + sound designers do, and what their "customer base" will do with their products - even the free stuff like Labs or Piano Book. Sure, it might stoke their egos, and probably "builds the brand", but let's be real - nobody's going to be "tricked" into buying a thousand-dollar library just because of Christian's enthusiasm while taking his dogs for walkies on his YouTube channel. And if the products weren't up to snuff then anyone who felt tricked wouldn't keep coming back for more on the strength of a slick website or a quiet-talking voiceover on a video.

Here's the point that not everyone can wrap their brains around, and which, embarrassingly, I was unable to wrap my brain around until I got to a certain point in life/career/experience:

Not everyone is driven by the lust for filthy lucre. 

Not everyone is always in "Cash Rules Everything Around Me" mode.

Some don't give a shit about money. Or, at least, not so much anymore. Most did at one point, out of sheer hunger while living in an unheated warehouse next to the Gowanus Canal while eating discount Ramen, bike messengering, and collecting returnable bottles and cans out of the trash in NYC for money to buy MIDI cables (Yes, I've actually done this), but (and here's the cringey part), once you get "enough" money, it can sort of... cease to have any meaning. At first, you stop looking at every plan of action in strict terms of spend-vs-return, figuring, "It's okay if I lose money on this because it will lead to better things." Later, you start thinking, "It's okay if I lose money on this because it's what I want to do." Even later, you might start thinking, "I don't care what it costs, it's the RIGHT thing to do."

For sure this isn't a universal truth - for every rich idealist for whom "money means nothing", there's a dozen Steve Mnuchin types whose boundless lust for filthy lucre has turned them into Smaug, perversely scheming and hoarding money or power over others for reasons that have long ceased to have actual relevance to them, and, once their soul is no more than a charred cinder on a bed of shiny coins, can only do harm to the rest of humanity, the planet, and everything and everyone that has nourished them during their demented quest. 

But I really don't think Paul and Christian are like this at all.

I don't think they're in it solely for the money. If they were, they'd be making a lot of different (smarter?) moves than the ones they so publicly make, and for which they are often pilloried on ze forums. They started doing sample libraries just for themselves, were then harangued into selling them to other composers in their bespoke era, and it just sort of snowballed into what it is today - because of their enthusiasm and the enthusiasm of other composers for what they were doing.

The money is nice, sure - it eliminates barriers to achieving goals and dreams, provides security for the family and the future, yadda yadda yadda - but they spread it around like nobody else. Seventy employees on a London standard of living? Freebies, give-aways, and "community-building outreach"? That's all very generous - and mostly unnecessary if all they wanted to do was to stack chips.

If they were all about that C.R.E.A.M. then they'd have found ways to cut costs and raise revenues long ago - and we wouldn't have as much stuff like Piano Book, Labs, BBCSO free, or the damn Westworld contest that so many people got pissed about for any reason they could pull out of their ass. (The fix was in! He broke the rules! Puh-leeeeeeze. They tried to do everyone a solid and y'all *still* found something to complain about, as always. I guess no good deed goes unpunished. Aaannnyyyywaaayyyy...) Sure, these things help "build the brand" in some intangible way, but it would be simpler and cheaper to just skip all that mess. They don't *need* to do that stuff, they *want* to do that stuff.

But then they'd be just another library developer with high-end, expensive products. People would still bitch and moan about the legato transition volumes, just like they do about every other freaking library out there, but all they'd have when they sit back and reflect would be the Smaug-like pile of coin and that feeling of "the big empty". That's nothing more than hollow joy - they know it, and I think they run their company and lives accordingly.

As to their products, buy or do not buy, it matters not. As to the contests, enter or do not enter, it matters not.

But cut 'em a break before assuming that all this stuff is just various manifestations of some big cash grab.


----------



## Rossy

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Why is it problematicissimo for Spitfire to do a contest? This competition was a blockbuster success for them. I totally relate to anyone entering the contest that did not win and got let down. However, don’t share your feelings about how upset you are about that with the public or social media. Keep it to yourself. This forum is not about puking 🤮 up every complaint one has about anything and everything in life. For that one must talk to your dog or pet or find a therapist, though most of those people are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!!


First of all, it wasnt a complaint it was just a suggestion. Not sure what your so bent out of shape for, and I certainly don't see it as puking as you put it. This is a forum, questions and suggestions as what keep it going, if you find it offensive or pointless, I suggest you stop reading, constructive criticism helps in many ways, yours dont.


----------



## dcoscina

Waywyn said:


> I recently had some composer telling me that he will vote down my videos on my YT channel with like 19 accounts he had. It turned out later, that this person organized an anonymous hacker group and paid them to "ruin my channel". In the end, they downvoted 5 of my videos with 30-50 dislikes.
> 
> I told him that the YouTube algorithm actually only cares about the activity on your channel. It doesn't matter if you receive likes or dislikes, appreciate it as someone boosting your channel. So the outcome was positive after all. After I told him, and also exposed him as a fake profile he used on Facebook and connected with over 300 people I've known, he disappeared. I have a "slight" hint of who that person was, but I'd rather keep that for me. I am not really sure if that person was really drop-dead stupid, but he told me that: He wanted to hurt my channel. *lulz*
> 
> What I am trying to say, there might be people being jealous, don't like your face or voice, simply disagree with something you have said or have written or simply love to bully people because they didn't learn it any other way and have problems to work out their personal shit and instead of going for others.
> 
> Even when I upload a video, I receive almost an instant dislike as if someone is just waiting out there that my new video comes up.
> 
> The best thing you could do is to appreciate people taking the time to interact with you. On my reaction video, I received over 200 likes but also around 75 dislikes. I am thankful for this all and keep going and learned to not take any of this personal.
> 
> I even received a few personally insulting comments and someone on my recent live stream popped up and spammed the channel with f*ck you and so on.
> 
> So in the end, just appreciate it all and know that you are heading in the right direction out there. Lots of weird people out there but sometimes it is just a little thing they are criticizing and their way to communicate is, is to vote down your video - without meaning any of it in a really negative way.
> 
> Almost everyone is going for that "I want to be a successful movie composer". I am convinced that some more famous or well-known composers on this forum can tell you that a few dislikes on your YT channel is just the beginning of the shitstorm that can and will happen once you are at a certain stage


I enjoy your vids.


----------



## dcoscina

Dale Turner said:


> Totally don't understand why people ever "disable comments" on their videos... Just let it roll. If you put it up, live with it. Otherwise why bother?
> 
> Only time I've ever deleted comments... I have a video I made of my daughter when she was maybe eight months old... about a way to you help battle COLIC... (a trick I learned from a friend of mine...) and I've had a few comments that were so horrifying, about wishing to do harm to her, calling her ugly... I wanted to put those pricks down, of course... and do much worse than just deleting their comments. But it was probably some thirteen-year-old moron, just firing keystrokes into the air like a thumb-twiddling twit.


That’s par for the course for this generation of anonymous bullies on the internet. I’m from an era where if you talked shit to someone in person you’d get your ass laid out. Methinks some of these keyboard warriors deserve to be humbled the old school way. 

then again, like Ben Kenobi said “you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy” as YT comments section


----------



## StillLife

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, it's another long read - but there's a point if you make it all the way to the end.
> 
> Few give Spitfire the benefit of the doubt on their motives, but I do. I've been good friends with Christian, Paul, Harry, Stanley, and a few more of them for a bunch of years now, and I've had more than a few long days (and long dinners!) with them - so this isn't just me guessing based on stuff I read on the internet, this is all coming from close personal experience:
> 
> - Not everyone and every decision is driven by a desire for more market share, more customers, more money. Spitfire has got more customers and products than they need in order to keep their company of seventy-plus employees a "going concern".
> 
> - They spend a lot of time and effort on products that are decidedly "niche", and probably don't make any sort of economic sense in terms of money spent on development vs sales revenue. How many of you paid full pop for Euphone and Scraped Percussion? I did, but I'm a "niche" composer and a sound/sample fanatic who's willing to spend whatever just to taste the sweet sweet nectar of a sound I've never heard before. (I also pay no attention to how much money I spend on sounds and software, but that's another discussion!) Even their more mainstream products veer strongly to the left - Evo Grids, Whitacre, etc. aren't what you buy if you're doing "epic trailer" tracks, and their oft-criticized love of the soft flautando aren't going to be heard in a Two Steps From Hell soundalike any time soon. So why would they spend all that time/money/effort on these niche products? Because they genuinely want to hear and use those sounds, want to reward and appreciate the sonic and musical innovators whose work they respect, and hope (perhaps naively) that there will be others out there who do as well; hopefully enough who will pony up the price so it's not too big of a loss for their company.
> 
> - Whether you believe it or not, there IS a wholesome motivation behind a lot of the stuff they do, whether it's Piano Book, Labs, tutorials, the free/cheap versions of BBCSO, templates, or Christian's wacky YouTube channel. While that stuff might expand their reach, grow their customer base, etc., none of it is by any means a sure bet, or a move dictated solely by sneaky strategic marketing. Lots of folks will download Labs and Piano Book and the free BBCSO, and will happily use that stuff and never spend more than a few bucks on actual paid Spitfire products. In fact, I'd guess that their "conversion rate" of people who come for all of the free stuff and wind up spending thousands is so low that the end result is a net loss of time, effort, and money on Spitfire's part.
> 
> - It would be so much simpler, and save them hundreds of thousands of $/£/€, just *not* to do *any* of that stuff, and simply do what every other library developer does: release a product, make one walkthrough and one tutorial video, offer a reduced introductory price, send out an email blast, and move on to the next. That business model certainly seems to work just fine for developers both large and small.
> 
> - None of the other big players in this space do anywhere near the amount of extracurriculars that Spitfire does. Sure, some of them flirt with the idea or make token efforts like releasing a few freebies as a very thinly-disguised way to harvest email addresses for their next promotional email blast, but none of them even approach the level of "community involvement" that Spitfire does.
> 
> - Besides the ridiculous planning and recording logistics involved in acquiring signal to tape, the editing and programming work involved in turning a ProTools session of single-note recordings into a playable, sellable product is IMMENSE, and has only grown more so over the years as more articulations and mic positions have become the norm, resulting in a logistic/production/IT nightmare, and a "smart" businessman would have tried to find ways to shave costs at every turn long ago. Outsource the recording to buy-out sessions in Eastern Europe? Outsource the sample editing to Mumbai? All of these would have been on the table if this was simply a money grabbing operation.
> 
> So... *why*? Why doesn't every developer do it the Spitfire way? Is it solely because Spitfire are so successful that they have deep cash reserves that nobody else has? And, if so, why aren't Paul and Christian just stacking the chips and preparing to fold up shop when the cash meter hits some pre-determined red line? Don't you think they've got enough cash already? I mean, *why* do they even *BOTHER*?
> 
> You'd be forgiven for assuming I'm naive, but after 35 years of fending off attempts to screw me over in every facet of the music industry (with mixed results) I can confidently say "I may be a lot of things but naive I ain't."
> 
> I really think that most of what's behind Spirfire's motivation to do all this "other stuff" is a genuine love for the craft and a wholesome enthusiasm for what they do, what other composers + sound designers do, and what their "customer base" will do with their products - even the free stuff like Labs or Piano Book. Sure, it might stoke their egos, and probably "builds the brand", but let's be real - nobody's going to be "tricked" into buying a thousand-dollar library just because of Christian's enthusiasm while taking his dogs for walkies on his YouTube channel. And if the products weren't up to snuff then anyone who felt tricked wouldn't keep coming back for more on the strength of a slick website or a quiet-talking voiceover on a video.
> 
> Here's the point that not everyone can wrap their brains around, and which, embarrassingly, I was unable to wrap my brain around until I got to a certain point in life/career/experience:
> 
> Not everyone is driven by the lust for filthy lucre.
> 
> Not everyone is always in "Cash Rules Everything Around Me" mode.
> 
> Some don't give a shit about money. Or, at least, not so much anymore. Most did at one point, out of sheer hunger while living in an unheated warehouse next to the Gowanus Canal while eating discount Ramen, bike messengering, and collecting returnable bottles and cans out of the trash in NYC for money to buy MIDI cables (Yes, I've actually done this), but (and here's the cringey part), once you get "enough" money, it can sort of... cease to have any meaning. At first, you stop looking at every plan of action in strict terms of spend-vs-return, figuring, "It's okay if I lose money on this because it will lead to better things." Later, you start thinking, "It's okay if I lose money on this because it's what I want to do." Even later, you might start thinking, "I don't care what it costs, it's the RIGHT thing to do."
> 
> For sure this isn't a universal truth - for every rich idealist for whom "money means nothing", there's a dozen Steve Mnuchin types whose boundless lust for filthy lucre has turned them into Smaug, perversely scheming and hoarding money or power over others for reasons that have long ceased to have actual relevance to them, and, once their soul is no more than a charred cinder on a bed of shiny coins, can only do harm to the rest of humanity, the planet, and everything and everyone that has nourished them during their demented quest.
> 
> But I really don't think Paul and Christian are like this at all.
> 
> I don't think they're in it for the money. If they were, they'd be making a lot of different (smarter?) moves than the ones they so publicly make, and for which they are often pilloried on ze forums. They started doing sample libraries just for themselves, were then harangued into selling them to other composers in their bespoke era, and it just sort of snowballed into what it is today - because of their enthusiasm and the enthusiasm of other composers for what they were doing.
> 
> The money is nice, sure - it eliminates barriers to achieving goals and dreams, provides security for the family and the future, yadda yadda yadda - but they spread it around like nobody else. Seventy employees on a London standard of living? Freebies, give-aways, and "community-building outreach"? That's all very generous - and mostly unnecessary if all they wanted to do was to stack chips.
> 
> If they were all about that C.R.E.A.M. then they'd have found ways to cut costs and raise revenues long ago - and we wouldn't have as much stuff like Piano Book, Labs, BBCSO free, or the damn Westworld contest that so many people got pissed about for any reason they could pull out of their ass. (The fix was in! He broke the rules! Puh-leeeeeeze. They tried to do everyone a solid and y'all *still* found something to complain about, as always. I guess no good deed goes unpunished. Aaannnyyyywaaayyyy...) Sure, these things help "build the brand" in some intangible way, but it would be simpler and cheaper to just skip all that mess. They don't *need* to do that stuff, they *want* to do that stuff.
> 
> But then they'd be just another library developer with high-end, expensive products. People would still bitch and moan about the legato transition volumes, just like they do about every other freaking library out there, but all they'd have when they sit back and reflect would be the Smaug-like pile of coin and that feeling of "the big empty". That's nothing more than hollow joy - they know it, and I think they run their company and lives accordingly.
> 
> As to their products, buy or do not buy, it matters not. As to the contests, enter or do not enter, it matters not.
> 
> But cut 'em a break before assuming that all this stuff is just various manifestations of some big cash grab.


Great. Logical and coherent. Super post.


----------



## StillLife

Waywyn said:


> I recently had some composer telling me that he will vote down my videos on my YT channel with like 19 accounts he had. It turned out later, that this person organized an anonymous hacker group and paid them to "ruin my channel". In the end, they downvoted 5 of my videos with 30-50 dislikes.
> 
> I told him that the YouTube algorithm actually only cares about the activity on your channel. It doesn't matter if you receive likes or dislikes, appreciate it as someone boosting your channel. So the outcome was positive after all. After I told him, and also exposed him as a fake profile he used on Facebook and connected with over 300 people I've known, he disappeared. I have a "slight" hint of who that person was, but I'd rather keep that for me. I am not really sure if that person was really drop-dead stupid, but he told me that: He wanted to hurt my channel. *lulz*
> 
> What I am trying to say, there might be people being jealous, don't like your face or voice, simply disagree with something you have said or have written or simply love to bully people because they didn't learn it any other way and have problems to work out their personal shit and instead of going for others.
> 
> Even when I upload a video, I receive almost an instant dislike as if someone is just waiting out there that my new video comes up.
> 
> The best thing you could do is to appreciate people taking the time to interact with you. On my reaction video, I received over 200 likes but also around 75 dislikes. I am thankful for this all and keep going and learned to not take any of this personal.
> 
> I even received a few personally insulting comments and someone on my recent live stream popped up and spammed the channel with f*ck you and so on.
> 
> So in the end, just appreciate it all and know that you are heading in the right direction out there. Lots of weird people out there but sometimes it is just a little thing they are criticizing and their way to communicate is, is to vote down your video - without meaning any of it in a really negative way.
> 
> Almost everyone is going for that "I want to be a successful movie composer". I am convinced that some more famous or well-known composers on this forum can tell you that a few dislikes on your YT channel is just the beginning of the shitstorm that can and will happen once you are at a certain stage


Think of all the time that gets lost in disliking, hating, coming up with fresh insults. 
Even regarless of common decency, I'd say: Life is too short for this. Even the great Ennio Morricone got only 92 years to enjoy it.


----------



## charlieclouser

StillLife said:


> Great. Logical and coherent. Super post.



Thanks man. I try to look on the bright side, if there is one. In this case I think there is.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Rossy said:


> First of all, it wasnt a complaint it was just a suggestion. Not sure what your so bent out of shape for, and I certainly don't see it as puking as you put it. This is a forum, questions and suggestions as what keep it going, if you find it offensive or pointless, I suggest you stop reading, constructive criticism helps in many ways, yours dont.


I don’t find it offensive at all 🍾 But for those complaining in big or small ways you have to realize that if you are a professional or want to become one publicly complaining about a contest is not going to help your career and it will hurt it. I have no problem with people being upset behind the scenes that’s understandable and anyone being upset doesn’t bother me at all. But those people are only potentially hurting themselves. If someone is not interested in becoming a pro composer then airing your grievances publicly about a contest is not a big deal but boy oh boy has it really pissed a lot of people off, which I was surprised 😲 to see also aired publicly. I was really speaking to that kind of composer that is either a professional film and tv composer or one that wants to become one. If you want to be in this biz one needs not just a super thick skin but also needs to have the confidence and determination to preserve given how much rejection lies before your path. For those types of individuals publicly complaining about a nothing contest is not the hardened mentality one needs to weather the travails of this biz and can actually be seen as such a negative reaction that someone who may have wanted to work with you one day will no longer feel that way about you and would want nothing to do with you. For those who are hobbyists and have no interest in entering this biz openly complaining really doesn’t affect you. Though realize in the days of social media any negative comment or any comment at all can always be read by ones current or future employer and influence their decision to fire you or not hire you so one has to be extremely careful what one says openly to the public. In general I would say this to anyone, life is tough and unfair so is it really that big a deal who won a contest with no entry fee? I don’t think it is and I suggest to anyone complaining to re-examine why they are upset. This contest cost you nothing to enter. What’s the big deal? You walk away with a fun experience and a piece of original music for your reel or just for fun. Either way everyone won in this regard. When you look at the big picture of life and understand how difficult and tragic life can be, those complaining come off really immature like a bunch of infants crying because their warm milk is too hot or too cold 🥶 It’s just a no entry fee contest, it’s not such a big deal so why complain at all when there is such serious things going on in the world 🌎


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## Dale Turner

dcoscina said:


> That’s par for the course for this generation of anonymous bullies on the internet. I’m from an era where if you talked shit to someone in person you’d get your ass laid out. Methinks some of these keyboard warriors deserve to be humbled the old school way.



Yep! Pretty infuriating/disgusting! My wife certainly would've ripped that sub-human apart, had she seen his/her horrid words.


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## charlieclouser

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I don’t find it offensive at all 🍾 But for those complaining in big or small ways you have to realize that if you are a professional or want to become one publicly complaining about a contest is not going to help your career and it will hurt it. I have no problem with people being upset behind the scenes that’s understandable and anyone being upset doesn’t bother me at all. But those people are only potentially hurting themselves. If someone is not interested in becoming a pro composer then airing your grievances publicly about a contest is not a big deal but boy oh boy has it really pissed a lot of people off, which I was surprised 😲 to see also aired publicly. I was really speaking to that kind of composer that is either a professional film and tv composer or one that wants to become one. If you want to be in this biz one needs not just a super thick skin but also needs to have the confidence and determination to preserve given how much rejection lies before your path. For those types of individuals publicly complaining about a nothing contest is not the hardened mentality one needs to weather the travails of this biz and can actually be seen as such a negative reaction that someone who may have wanted to work with you one day will no longer feel that way about you and would want nothing to do with you. For those who are hobbyists and have no interest in entering this biz openly complaining really doesn’t affect you. Though realize in the days of social media any negative comment or any comment at all can always be read by ones current or future employer and influence their decision to fire you or not hire you so one has to be extremely careful what one says openly to the public. In general I would say this to anyone, life is tough and unfair so is it really that big a deal who won a contest with no entry fee? I don’t think it is and I suggest to anyone complaining to re-examine why they are upset. This contest cost you nothing to enter. What’s the big deal? You walk away with a fun experience and a piece of original music for your reel or just for fun. Either way everyone won in this regard.



Agreed.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" - _Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain, the Bible, etc._

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake" - _Napoleon Bonaparte, etc._

"Never murder a man who is committing suicide" - _Woodrow Wilson_

"If you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all." - _everybody's grandmother_

"The internet never forgets." - _everybody who's ever had a late-night forum argument or nude pic come back to bite them years later._


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## NoOneKnowsAnything

charlieclouser said:


> Agreed.
> 
> "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" - _Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain, the Bible, etc._
> 
> "Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake" - _Napoleon Bonaparte, etc._
> 
> "If you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all." - _everybody's grandmother_
> 
> "The internet never forgets." - _everybody who's ever had a late-night forum argument or nude pic come back to bite them years later._


🍾 And, let’s not forget the classic WWII saying “Loose lips sink ships”

On a personal note, I have discovered throughout my life that saying less is more and always a good thing, while saying too much typically backfires and only prevents you from getting what you want.

On a related but different note, for anyone out there that may ever have to deal with an insurance claim quietly record every phone call and in person encounter with these people including opposing legal counsel, and videotape immediately any damage caused by water especially like if your apartment dwelling gets flooded videotape and take pictures immediately to prove you had tons of water all over your property or one is in a car accident. Insurance claims adjusters are notoriously the scum of the earth and so are the insurance companies legaldefense attorneys along with all those who work at insurance companies in the claims Dept and supervising the claims Dept. These people have no souls and will say the most outrageous things to you over the phone and in person so always record them as that is one way to apply leverage over them when they try to commit racketeering and criminal business fraud. Don’t ever let them know that you are recording them. If there is a fire or gas leak get out of your dwelling immediately and save any people and pets then call 911. And, if you ever give a legal deposition in your lifetime or have to testify on the witness stand keep your mouth shut as much as possible. Just say “sure” or “yes” or “no” or “I understand your statement” or “I don’t know” or “I don’t understand your question” or “those would not be my words “ and never embellish as it will always be used against you especially if you are telling the truth and in the right. You can always tell a police office if they ask you questions “I don’t answer questions” and just repeat that over and over each time he asks you something. Too many people in the world with power are disgusting so let’s not help them hurt you.


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## redlester

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, it's another long read - but there's a point if you make it all the way to the end.
> 
> Few give Spitfire the benefit of the doubt on their motives, but I do. I've been good friends with Christian, Paul, Harry, Stanley, and a few more of them for a bunch of years now, and I've had more than a few long days (and long dinners!) with them - so this isn't just me guessing based on stuff I read on the internet, this is all coming from close personal experience:



Great post and from the perspective of a hobbyist as opposed to a music professional, I agree with your view not from any experience in the industry, just from the vibe that comes across.

I've said it before but to me Spitfire, partly because of their obvious love of it all but also partly because of the strong graphic design element, come across as the sampling world's version of Manchester's Factory Records, who's (in)famous supremo Tony Wilson used to say that they did it all simply because they wanted to, and that their aim was to make history above making money. Spitfire seem to have managed to do both successfully, which is where the comparison ends. I wish they'd hurry up and open their Hacienda though.


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## dcoscina

Dale Turner said:


> Yep! Pretty infuriating/disgusting! My wife certainly would've ripped that sub-human apart, had she seen his/her horrid words.


True, but then again, they are just words, from some person who obviously needs to grow up, or get a clue. I think if we all agree that YT can be a cesspool for these kind of people, then we won't be too surprised. I posted some examples of my StaffPad works and almost immediately, the thumbs down showed up. It bothered me for literally 2 seconds. Then I moved on. Negative comments can only hurt if we are already insecure about something. 

It's easy for people to sit around and criticize compared to those who are willing to try and fail at something. Any real successes have been built on those compelled to succeed no matter how much adversity they encounter.


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## Dale Turner

dcoscina said:


> It's easy for people to sit around and criticize compared to those who are willing to try and fail at something. Any real successes have been built on those compelled to succeed no matter how much adversity they encounter.



AMEN to that!!


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## Jeremy Spencer

Eptesicus said:


> I find that really odd, and reading some of the points in these posts (and others), makes me think that there is a line of thinking here that suggests everyone should have simply said how wonderful everything was about it or just said nothing at all.



Aside from wondering their process for listening to all of the entries, this is precisely how I feel. It was a public, free contest open to anyone, with nothing at stake (except ego’s, apparently). Winners announced, we give the winners a congrats, and move on. It’s quite clear who are cut out to be professional composers and who aren’t.


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## Ashermusic

redlester said:


> Great post and from the perspective of a hobbyist as opposed to a music professional, I agree with your view not from any experience in the industry, just from the vibe that comes across.
> 
> I've said it before but to me Spitfire, partly because of their obvious love of it all but also partly because of the strong graphic design element, come across as the sampling world's version of Manchester's Factory Records, who's (in)famous supremo Tony Wilson used to say that they did it all simply because they wanted to, and that their aim was to make history above making money. Spitfire seem to have managed to do both successfully, which is where the comparison ends. I wish they'd hurry up and open their Hacienda though.




Indeed, It is possible to be well-motivated, love what you do, AND want to make money. They are not mutually exclusive.

I don't own much Spitfire, because I don't feel I need to, but I like what I have seen of them as people.


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## Loïc D

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, it's another long read - but there's a point if you make it all the way to the end.
> 
> Few give Spitfire the benefit of the doubt on their motives, but I do. I've been good friends with Christian, Paul, Harry, Stanley, and a few more of them for a bunch of years now, and I've had more than a few long days (and long dinners!) with them - so this isn't just me guessing based on stuff I read on the internet, this is all coming from close personal experience:
> 
> - Not everyone and every decision is driven by a desire for more market share, more customers, more money. Spitfire has got more customers and products than they need in order to keep their company of seventy-plus employees a "going concern".
> 
> - They spend a lot of time and effort on products that are decidedly "niche", and probably don't make any sort of economic sense in terms of money spent on development vs sales revenue. How many of you paid full pop for Euphone and Scraped Percussion? I did, but I'm a "niche" composer and a sound/sample fanatic who's willing to spend whatever just to taste the sweet sweet nectar of a sound I've never heard before. (I also pay no attention to how much money I spend on sounds and software, but that's another discussion!) Even their more mainstream products veer strongly to the left - Evo Grids, Whitacre, etc. aren't what you buy if you're doing "epic trailer" tracks, and their oft-criticized love of the soft flautando aren't going to be heard in a Two Steps From Hell soundalike any time soon. So why would they spend all that time/money/effort on these niche products? Because they genuinely want to hear and use those sounds, want to reward and appreciate the sonic and musical innovators whose work they respect, and hope (perhaps naively) that there will be others out there who do as well; hopefully enough who will pony up the price so it's not too big of a loss for their company.
> 
> - Whether you believe it or not, there IS a wholesome motivation behind a lot of the stuff they do, whether it's Piano Book, Labs, tutorials, the free/cheap versions of BBCSO, templates, those "Salons" they put on a while back, or Christian's wacky YouTube channel. While that stuff might expand their reach, grow their customer base, etc., none of it is by any means a sure bet, or a move dictated solely by sneaky strategic marketing. Lots of folks will download Labs and Piano Book and the free BBCSO, and will happily use that stuff and never spend more than a few bucks on actual paid Spitfire products. In fact, I'd guess that their "conversion rate" of people who come for all of the free stuff and wind up spending thousands is so low that the end result is a net loss of time, effort, and money on Spitfire's part.
> 
> - It would be so much simpler, and save them hundreds of thousands of $/£/€, just *not* to do *any* of that stuff, and simply do what every other library developer does: release a product, make one walkthrough and one tutorial video, offer a reduced introductory price, send out an email blast, and move on to the next. That business model certainly seems to work just fine for developers both large and small.
> 
> - None of the other big players in this space do anywhere near the amount of extracurriculars that Spitfire does. Sure, some of them flirt with the idea or make token efforts like releasing a few freebies as a very thinly-disguised way to harvest email addresses for their next promotional email blast, but none of them even approach the level of "community involvement" that Spitfire does.
> 
> - Besides the ridiculous planning and recording logistics involved in acquiring signal to tape, the editing and programming work involved in turning a ProTools session of single-note recordings into a playable, sellable product is IMMENSE, and has only grown more so over the years as more articulations and mic positions have become the norm, resulting in a logistic/production/IT nightmare, and a "smart" businessman would have tried to find ways to shave costs at every turn long ago. Outsource the recording to buy-out sessions in Eastern Europe? Outsource the sample editing to Mumbai? All of these would have been on the table if this was simply a money grabbing operation.
> 
> So... *why*? Why doesn't every developer do it the Spitfire way? Is it solely because Spitfire are so successful that they have deep cash reserves that nobody else has? And, if so, why aren't Paul and Christian just stacking the chips and preparing to fold up shop when the cash meter hits some pre-determined red line? Don't you think they've got enough cash already? I mean, *why* do they even *BOTHER*?
> 
> You'd be forgiven for assuming I'm naive, but after 35 years of fending off attempts to screw me over in every facet of the music industry (with mixed results) I can confidently say "I may be a lot of things but naive I ain't."
> 
> I really think that most of what's behind Spirfire's motivation to do all this "other stuff" is a genuine love for the craft and a wholesome enthusiasm for what they do, what other composers + sound designers do, and what their "customer base" will do with their products - even the free stuff like Labs or Piano Book. Sure, it might stoke their egos, and probably "builds the brand", but let's be real - nobody's going to be "tricked" into buying a thousand-dollar library just because of Christian's enthusiasm while taking his dogs for walkies on his YouTube channel. And if the products weren't up to snuff then anyone who felt tricked wouldn't keep coming back for more on the strength of a slick website or a quiet-talking voiceover on a video.
> 
> Here's the point that not everyone can wrap their brains around, and which, embarrassingly, I was unable to wrap my brain around until I got to a certain point in life/career/experience:
> 
> Not everyone is driven by the lust for filthy lucre.
> 
> Not everyone is always in "Cash Rules Everything Around Me" mode.
> 
> Some don't give a shit about money. Or, at least, not so much anymore. Most did at one point, out of sheer hunger while living in an unheated warehouse next to the Gowanus Canal while eating discount Ramen, bike messengering, and collecting returnable bottles and cans out of the trash in NYC for money to buy MIDI cables (Yes, I've actually done this), but (and here's the cringey part), once you get "enough" money, it can sort of... cease to have any meaning. At first, you stop looking at every plan of action in strict terms of spend-vs-return, figuring, "It's okay if I lose money on this because it will lead to better things." Later, you start thinking, "It's okay if I lose money on this because it's what I want to do." Even later, you might start thinking, "I don't care what it costs, it's the RIGHT thing to do."
> 
> For sure this isn't a universal truth - for every rich idealist for whom "money means nothing", there's a dozen Steve Mnuchin types whose boundless lust for filthy lucre has turned them into Smaug, perversely scheming and hoarding money or power over others for reasons that have long ceased to have actual relevance to them, and, once their soul is no more than a charred cinder on a bed of shiny coins, can only do harm to the rest of humanity, the planet, and everything and everyone that has nourished them during their demented quest.
> 
> But I really don't think Paul and Christian are like this at all.
> 
> I don't think they're in it solely for the money. If they were, they'd be making a lot of different (smarter?) moves than the ones they so publicly make, and for which they are often pilloried on ze forums. They started doing sample libraries just for themselves, were then harangued into selling them to other composers in their bespoke era, and it just sort of snowballed into what it is today - because of their enthusiasm and the enthusiasm of other composers for what they were doing.
> 
> The money is nice, sure - it eliminates barriers to achieving goals and dreams, provides security for the family and the future, yadda yadda yadda - but they spread it around like nobody else. Seventy employees on a London standard of living? Freebies, give-aways, and "community-building outreach"? That's all very generous - and mostly unnecessary if all they wanted to do was to stack chips.
> 
> If they were all about that C.R.E.A.M. then they'd have found ways to cut costs and raise revenues long ago - and we wouldn't have as much stuff like Piano Book, Labs, BBCSO free, or the damn Westworld contest that so many people got pissed about for any reason they could pull out of their ass. (The fix was in! He broke the rules! Puh-leeeeeeze. They tried to do everyone a solid and y'all *still* found something to complain about, as always. I guess no good deed goes unpunished. Aaannnyyyywaaayyyy...) Sure, these things help "build the brand" in some intangible way, but it would be simpler and cheaper to just skip all that mess. They don't *need* to do that stuff, they *want* to do that stuff.
> 
> But then they'd be just another library developer with high-end, expensive products. People would still bitch and moan about the legato transition volumes, just like they do about every other freaking library out there, but all they'd have when they sit back and reflect would be the Smaug-like pile of coin and that feeling of "the big empty". That's nothing more than hollow joy - they know it, and I think they run their company and lives accordingly.
> 
> As to their products, buy or do not buy, it matters not. As to the contests, enter or do not enter, it matters not.
> 
> But cut 'em a break before assuming that all this stuff is just various manifestations of some big cash grab.


Hobbyist here, but can't agree more :D


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## Mike Greene

At 46 pages, I think everyone has had their say on this. Plus I think most people are tired of seeing this in their Latest Posts feed. (Speaking for myself, I find myself dreading each day that the _This was unfair!_ debate will reemerge.)

Charlie's post is a particularly good way to end things (obviously Spitfire detractors will disagree, but we have a Drama Zone thread for that), so I'm closing this thread.


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