# If director doesn't want to do a contract? (I'm a beginner)



## Max Pa (Dec 16, 2022)

What if a director/producer doesn’t want to do a contract with me? Is it enough registering my music to ASCAP/BMI before sending to the producer, or there’s a better way to demonstrate it’s mine?
And once the project is finished can I release that music as album with film title, and send Cue Sheets on ASCAP/BMI?

Generally should I include in the contract that I’m allowed use some scenes for my demo reel?


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## Daryl (Dec 16, 2022)

The director needs a contract, or he/she has no proof that the music has been licenced.


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## 3DC (Dec 16, 2022)

Max Pa said:


> What if a director/producer doesn’t want to do a contract with me? Is it enough registering my music to ASCAP/BMI before sending to the producer, or there’s a better way to demonstrate it’s mine?
> And once the project is finished can I release that music as album with film title, and send Cue Sheets on ASCAP/BMI?
> 
> Generally should I include in the contract that I’m allowed use some scenes for my demo reel?


I would not work with any "director" that doesn't want a contract. Not only that, I would not play or share a single note with this type of "directors". 

But that's me...


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## nolotrippen (Dec 16, 2022)

run


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## GtrString (Dec 16, 2022)

Yeah, if a director doesn’t have a contract, he’d end up in much bigger shi* than you.


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## ZenBYD (Dec 16, 2022)

at some point you will need some kind of basic contract. even if you are not officially contracted to the project as a composer ... they will need some kind of license to use your music. if they don't like your music enough to license it... then... that is their loss.

that said, if you're starting out and it is early days... it is up to you whether you want to do it for experience... exposure... cash in a brown bag... whatever. that is your call to make.

however... if there is any kind of budget involved... maybe think about getting an agent involved on a single contract basis.


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## ssnowe (Dec 16, 2022)

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I’d be happy to sell you for a great price, no contracts, I promise you that all is good and this is a great deal, cash monies only


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## J-M (Dec 16, 2022)

I did a project for a friend I've known since high school. Had a contract.

Always, ALWAYS have a contract. No exceptions. Period.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 16, 2022)

Your working for free, he isn’t


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## HarmonKard (Dec 16, 2022)

Daryl said:


> The director needs a contract, or he/she has no proof that the music has been licenced.


While true, if the director doesn't want to do a contract, they are probably too much an amateur to understand that. 



GtrString said:


> Yeah, if a director doesn’t have a contract, he’d end up in much bigger shi* than you.


Well, that's not necessarily true. It can be, but it can actually work against both parties.

OP - walk away from any deal where someone wants no part of a contract.


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## Max Pa (Dec 17, 2022)

Thank you everyone for answering! Yeah the problem is that they can steal my music and choose another composer doing all the work. Already happened to some other composer and I'm trying to avoid before the mess begins.
So far I've understood that only way to protect myself and demonstrate that music for that project is mine is to do the contract or deal memo. Nothing else works to protect my copyright on my music when it's about film scoring. 
Am I right?



ZenBYD said:


> that said, if you're starting out and it is early days... it is up to you whether you want to do it for experience... exposure... cash in a brown bag... whatever. that is your call to make.
> 
> however... if there is any kind of budget involved... maybe think about getting an agent involved on a single contract basis.


exactly it's also for experience and money. 
I didn'tknow that agents were available doing this for little money too. Or maybe is better an attorney?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 17, 2022)

Max Pa said:


> So far I've understood that only way to protect myself and demonstrate that music for that project is mine is to do the contract or deal memo. Nothing else works to protect my copyright on my music when it's about film scoring.
> Am I right?


Typically a film contract is "work-for-hire", meaning your music is being commissioned for use in the film. You typically give up all your rights, yet get a lump sum payment as compensation. If the director has no budget for this type of agreement, then you could simply license them the music; this could be exclusive with an expiry date, but you still retain publishing rights. If there's no budget, or the director simply won't sign anything, run like the wind.


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## Daren Audio (Dec 17, 2022)

Contract or bust. Don't set yourself up for exploitation.


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## davidanthony (Dec 17, 2022)

Max Pa said:


> I didn'tknow that agents were available doing this for little money too. Or maybe is better an attorney?


Most good agents do not work hourly, at least the ones I'm familiar with in LA/NY, but you can definitely find an attorney who will help you out with something like this for either an hourly or flat rate.



Max Pa said:


> So far I've understood that only way to protect myself and demonstrate that music for that project is mine is to do the contract or deal memo. Nothing else works to protect my copyright on my music when it's about film scoring.
> Am I right?


A good contract goes a long way, but there are other important steps to protecting ownership over intellectual property that depend on where you are in the world (e.g. registration with the U.S. Copyright Office if you're in the states https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ50.pdf)


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## Max Pa (Dec 19, 2022)

Ok so let's say in example that they offer 1000$. I would keep all rights (writer, publisher and mechanical rights) so if they also want to have publisher rights how much more money should I ask above these 1000$ ?

And is it ok to do the online sign by gmail or we both need to do through our official website mails to be valid? (I’m thinking if someone does this with a gmail that doesn’t have his name in it and then say it’s not valid because was another person…)

LAST THING I have to include into contract that at the end of the work they have to send cue sheets to ASCAP/BMI?


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## GtrString (Dec 19, 2022)

No the problem with not having a contract for the director is that you can sue them after a couple years, and claim much more than you could have gotten if they made an agreement with you.

A contract protects both parties. This is why you know directors who doesn’t want to sign a contract are amateurs. Pros protect themselves, and share dues.

But if they don’t want to do that, just let them use the track(s), register everything beforehand (keep all rights), and ask them for a fee for filling out the cuesheet(s) for them. The upfront fee doesn’t matter much if it’s a blockbuster.

If you are in the US, don’t let them give you a small upfront fee without a contract, as that would mean they own the master (keep your rights instead). If you’re in the EU, get the upfront fee without the contract, as that doesn’t mean they own the master (keep your rights).


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 19, 2022)

Max Pa said:


> What if a director/producer doesn’t want to do a contract with me? Is it enough registering my music to ASCAP/BMI before sending to the producer, or there’s a better way to demonstrate it’s mine?
> And once the project is finished can I release that music as album with film title, and send Cue Sheets on ASCAP/BMI?
> 
> Generally should I include in the contract that I’m allowed use some scenes for my demo reel?


To borrow a line from a film "Run, Forrest, Run!"


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## Daren Audio (Dec 19, 2022)

Max Pa said:


> And is it ok to do the online sign by gmail or we both need to do through our official website mails to be valid? (I’m thinking if someone does this with a gmail that doesn’t have his name in it and then say it’s not valid because was another person…)


You can use PDF or DocuSign for obtaining digital signatures as official legal documents. 

Obvious... but make sure you have legal name, address and contact info (phone & email) for both parties are on the contract.


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## Max Pa (Jan 2, 2023)

GtrString said:


> No the problem with not having a contract for the director is that you can sue them after a couple years, and claim much more than you could have gotten if they made an agreement with you.
> 
> A contract protects both parties. This is why you know directors who doesn’t want to sign a contract are amateurs. Pros protect themselves, and share dues.
> 
> ...


ok, and what if I'm in europe and he is in USA? What happens if we don't have a contract?
I was just thinking to do this work for the money and do it without contract , but many people suggest me against that because that way it's possible they will put another composer name on it and so I could not have credits and it's difficult to have second half of money and to prove that I wrote that music.

That's the reasons many people say to run away from that work...


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## GtrString (Jan 2, 2023)

Max Pa said:


> ok, and what if I'm in europe and he is in USA? What happens if we don't have a contract?
> I was just thinking to do this work for the money and do it without contract , but many peoplle suggest me against that because that way it's possible they will put another compsoer name on it and so I could not have credits and it's difficult to have second half of money and to prove that I wrote that music.
> 
> That's the reasons many people say to run away from that work...


It's your risk to take. You may well be in a position, where you just want to try it. Just dial your expectations down. Contract may be too big a word, an agreement over email counts as well. HNY


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## Max Pa (Jan 2, 2023)

ok so by email agreement you mean that I write him a list of things and he send me a reply email answering yes?
Or you mean that I send him an agreement pdf with all points and details about the project and our addresses, already signed by me and ask him to electronically sign it?


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## GtrString (Jan 2, 2023)

I just mean the actual email. A contract is an agreement, a very elaborate one, and validated by a lawyer so it holds up in a court af law. An email is also an agreement, where you exchange promoses to each other, and it is in writing, so it is better than nothing. It is of course not elaborated to protect your rights, and not validated by a lawyer (at least in your end), but nevertheless.

Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer. Just a random dude in an internet forum, stating an opinion. Anything music business, you should ask an actual lawyer, imo.


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## Max Pa (Jan 3, 2023)

ok, right, that's better than nothing, plus this could be a good experience for a "beginner" like me and if I get at least the first payment and I can prove I wrote that music, then should be ok just for this time. Before I just wanted the contract, but now I could maybe do it anyway and accept that things could go wrong

PLUS he seems to be a good person so all this could just be my overthinking.
Maybe a contract to a beginner could be scary to the production, I understand that


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 3, 2023)

Max Pa said:


> PLUS he seems to be a good person so all this could just be my overthinking.
> Maybe a contract to a beginner could be scary to the production, I understand that


Ah yes, I've fallen for that one before (back when I was totally green to how this all works). The reality is, you need to put on your "business hat" and put all of those notions aside; doesn't matter if the client is a total jerk or a nice guy, the same rules apply (I've experienced "nice guy" directors change their whole personality on a dime, it's an awful feeling when that happens) . And if a contract is going to be a tough obstacle for either party, walk away. I know it's hard to get your head around these things when starting out, but it's essential if you want to succeed. The client can feel free to look elsewhere for a composer who will do it all for zero pay, and with no agreements in place.


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## Crowe (Jan 3, 2023)

Max Pa said:


> Maybe a contract to a beginner could be scary to the production, I understand that


This is an odd way of thinking. Not having a contract with your composer should be much, much scarier. They will have no rights to your music. They will have no agreements on paper with you. You will have no agreements concerning payment. You are interfacing with a business, there is no room here for being scared of contracts.

But, you don't seem to want the answers the fine folks here have for you, so do what you feel you must. Just be aware that nobody is going to be having any form of protection, at all.


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## JohnG (Jan 3, 2023)

I've started plenty of projects (and finished one score completely) with no contract -- at first. Eventually, if they want to use the music, they need one.

If it's a short film and / or very little money, you might explore using what's called a "Sync License," that allows them to use the music and you to retain the rights -- the rights to 1. the composition and 2. the master recording(s).

You don't agree to a "work for hire" typically unless they have distribution and they are established people.

Also, at the outset, some composers picture that they are composing a Number One Hit Song For The Ages and, therefore, risk seeing someone else get glory and millions of dollars / pounds / Euros. But most compositions don't end up in that category. Yes, there are stories of exploitation, but if you're writing 15 minutes of music for a student film or a short, it's not that huge a risk.

If it's something else -- a game or a score for a network television show (BBC, Netflix, ABC, etc.), then that's another matter.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jan 3, 2023)

I've always had a contract or sync license, even with non-paid jobs. If the director is simply trying to avoid the hassle (and perceived expense), then find some boilerplate that is relevant for the use-case and region and offer that to them.


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