# V8P - 8DIO's "loyalty program"



## SimonViklund (Mar 15, 2017)

EDIT: I've been contacted by 8DIO because of the post below. I will leave the post intact but make the text grey so that the thread as a whole can be understood by anyone who finds it later.

*First off*, 8DIO never emailed me back because I apparently contacted them through an email address that they had retired. I was mad at them for not answering but it turned out to be an unfortunate mishap which was really no one's fault.

*Second*, 8DIO explained that Synphony contains no samples from V8P 8W Black Edition. They also assured me that their product Hybrid Drums 8D8 contains no samples from any of their other products. These were both accusations I made because of other V8P products being relabled and sold as "regular" 8DIO products. I was wrong.

*Third*, I have visited their V8P section and they have added an explanation about what products in there are also sold as "regular" 8DIO products, a type of transparency which - in my opinion - was badly needed.

My respect for 8DIO has been restored.

There's a thread on this but it hasn'e been active since 2013 and it kind of derailed so I'm bringing it up again...

If you, as I am, have purchased 8DIO products for a total of at least $1999 you become a member of 8DIO's "loyalty program" called *V8P*.

V8P promises "semi custom" and "exclusive" content not available to regular 8DIO customers. The V8P website has the slogan "Stay Unique. V8P." and states that "what happens in V8P stays in V8P" - implying that no content for sale in the V8P store never becomes available to non-members.

However, everything in the V8P program is released as regular 8DIO products with completely different names, deliberately misleading V8P customers to make them think the V8P products are still exlusive and unique.

The orchestral content from *V8P 8W Black Edition* (btw, there are no other editions so why the "black edition" in the name?) was released as *8DIO Majestica*. It's the same recordings just that Majestica has fewer mic positions. That instantly makes 8W Black Edition _not_ unique. The same with the *Emperium Titan Choir* which was renamed to *Lacrimosa* and released in the regular 8DIO store.

Furthermore, the synth content from *V8P 8W Black Edition* - described in the product description on teh V8P website as "exclusive" was released as *8DIO Synphony*. Again, what happens in V8P clearly doesn't stay in V8P so why blatantly lie to the customers?

Now they released *Hybrid Drums 8D8* and it's a mix of a lot of different drum recordings and with 8DIO's track record we have reason to believe they are taken from the supposedly exclusive V8P products *Real Drum Ensemble* and *Drum Machine Ensemble*.

Once again, they're reusing the content they've claimed is "unique" and "exclusive" to create another product with a different name. Who knows, there might be parts of the orchestral percussion from *V8P 8W Black Edition* and even the *Epic Percussion* range too - no one knows and 8DIO won't admit to anything.

So far the only content in the V8P store that - to my knowledge - hasn't been repackaged and sold as an 8DIO products is the Emperium Destiny Choir and the Electric Guitar & Electric Bass ensembles. But I dont' know, maybe these have been cannibalized as well. 8DIO won't admit anything:

I emailed 8DIO twice about this - asking them to clarify what content is shared between V8P and 8DIO products - but haven't received a response. They usually answer quickly (the founder of 8DIO, Troels himself, usually) but they're clearly too uncofortable answering this valid customer question. They know they're doing something shady, the silence speaks volumes.

This is, if not a scam, _highly_ questionable business ethics. I liked 8DIO and they have a good thing going - many of their products are _great_ - why would they tarnish their own brand by employing this dubious business model?

*I would be fine with the V8P program never existing, but now that it does exist and 8DIO/V8P makes certain promises - is it not the customer's right to hold them to these promises?*

On the V8P website you can read that V8P "is our way of saying thank you" to "the most ambitious 8Dio consumers". Troels - I am one of these customers and I must say your "thank you" comes across as very insincere.


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## Lee Blaske (Mar 15, 2017)

Having the content earlier than other customers is a benefit, though, and V8P customers have had that.

Nothing stays exclusive anywhere, really. In a lot of ways, EastWest content is also more "exclusive" when it first comes out because it's more expensive, and fewer people can afford it. Then, it gradually comes down in price as time moves on and more people have it. Spitfire gives customers who purchase big bundles steep discounts (and also runs sales). Piracy also has a way of making things less exclusive.

In general, I'm pretty happy with the way 8Dio does business. Some of their products end up being more useful to me than others, but they really do seem to think out of the box (I wonder, thought, if they'll ever run out of ideas). There have been quite a few times now where I've gotten new libraries for free from 8Dio, because previous products I purchased were updated. And, they were pretty massive rewrites/reconfigurations with new GUIs, not minor tweaks. 

Coming out with these huge, creative libraries is a major undertaking. Enormous numbers of person-hours have to be involved. And, the market is constantly changing (some companies that were very active appear to have largely gone dormant whereas other newer companies are bringing out tons of new content). I'd like to see 8Dio stay in business and prosper. I think we need to allow them to tweak their business model based on how things are being received by the market. Perhaps the V8P model hasn't been working for them as well as they would have liked it to work. I like getting nice perquisites as much as the next person, but having an active, vibrant sample library and virtual instrument developing community is more important to me.


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## SimonViklund (Mar 15, 2017)

It's true that if a product has a high enough price, that product can be said to be exclusive to those who can afford it. But you're wrong in comparing that to the V8P loyalty program, where the vendor has explicitly said "what's offered here is exclusive and won't become evailable to non-members".

This isn't prices dropping and more customers suddenly affording the product - I'm not complaining about prices dropping. This isn't pirates making the product available on torrent sites. Pirates devalue all products regardless of price so piracy really isn't an argument in the discussion - and I'm not complaining about pirates.

*No, what this is about is 8DIO saying one thing and doing another.* They're devaluing their own loyalty program by saying that the products are going to be exclusive and then they deliberately rename and repackage the products - and sell them to everyone, contrary to what they've said they'd do - hoping that the people they have promised exclusivity to won't notice.

*8dio's practice would come across as a lot less shady if the V8P and corresponding 8DIO products had names that made it clear that they're different versions of the same product.* For example, instead of "Majestica" and "V8P 8W Black Edition", they could have called the produtcts "Majestica" and "Majestica Deluxe" or something to that effect. You get the idea. Now it's clear that they're trying to deceive the customers by using different product names, and what's even worse is that they won't even dignify these "loyal supporters" (that they claim to appreciate) with an answer when they ask about it.


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## John Busby (Mar 15, 2017)

@op
I hear what you're saying and i've been a little confused about this myself. Don't they say along with the additional mic positions V8P consumers also get the samples @ 96khz?
I guess the "exclusive" to them really means the same samples only higher quality? 

I don't know.... anyway. Over the past year 8dio has come out with interfaces and samples in their libraries that look and sound so similar it's unattractive.
it's almost as if you're paying for randomized samples from a previous library and then in the walk through videos Troels is spamming the randomize feature even more.
Stuff like this is unappealing to me!

however, when it comes to their instrument specific libraries, they nail it! Anything from the 1928 Grand, the Adagios, even the most recent CP-70.
Hopefully their century brass & strings will be indicative of this as well.

As far as their other hybrid, percussive, blendstrument non-sense and their most recent Symphonic Shadows ordeal, that's just the way they chose to do business but they won't receive any of my money for it.
But in the end i think you're right, their V8P business model is, in my opinion, a conformity to many other well-known and some not-so-well-known developer marketing tactics (it's all about the benjamins).


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## kaiyoti (Mar 15, 2017)

Uhh... no... I recall reading V8P fine prints somewhere saying that products may be sold to the general mass after some time, and it was also pointed out in this forum as well.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 15, 2017)

It is indeed part of the "Membership Agreement".

_1.3 We may change, suspend or discontinue any aspect of the V8P LOYALTY PROGRAM at any time, without liability. Notwithstanding this, we agree that we will not offer for sale to nonmembers any of our library collections that were designed exclusively for the members of the V8P LOYALTY PROGRAM prior to a minimum of two years from the date any such library collection was first offered to members of the V8P LOYALTY PROGRAM. _


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## SimonViklund (Mar 15, 2017)

@johnbusbymusic
Indeed, if sample rates and mic positions is all that's exclusive to V8P products then they're overselling the value of the V8P membership by a huge margin. It's quite the stretch of the word "unique". And yes - I agree 8DIO has made some kick-ass products. Seems every other sample library creator has taiko drums, frame drums and the likes - but 8DIO's Epic Percussion range is the best hands down imo. I got reasons to like 8DIO, but they're making it really hard.


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## SimonViklund (Mar 15, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> It is indeed part of the "Membership Agreement".
> 
> _1.3 We may change, suspend or discontinue any aspect of the V8P LOYALTY PROGRAM at any time, without liability. Notwithstanding this, we agree that we will not offer for sale to nonmembers any of our library collections that were designed exclusively for the members of the V8P LOYALTY PROGRAM prior to a minimum of two years from the date any such library collection was first offered to members of the V8P LOYALTY PROGRAM. _



The fine print makes them legally right but hardly morally right: Hiding that stuff in fine print, renaming/repackaging products and on top of that refusing to answer customer emails about it can't be seen as anything but shady. What other reason do they have to refuse to answer the email other than they know that it's a dubious business strategy and they just don't want to admit it. If they answered by pointing out that fine print they would hardly comfort a customer who purchased both 8W and Synphony and realized everything in Synphony was already part of 8W. *The result of this business practice is that I as a customer have to question - at every instance where I'm considering buying an 8DIO product - whether I may already own that product as part of a V8P product I have purchased previously. It creates a trust issue.*


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 15, 2017)

I know you're angry, man, but *I was just giving you the fine print to say there is a fine print.*


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## SimonViklund (Mar 15, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> I know you're angry, man, but *I was just giving you the fine print to say there is a fine print.*


I get it. I shouldn't kill the messenger, sorry.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 15, 2017)

SimonViklund said:


> I get it. I shouldn't kill the messenger, sorry.


Just kidding !


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## stonzthro (Mar 15, 2017)

yeah... 8dio... I'll field this call

Here's why I'm done with 8Dio:

1. The Membership Agreement may say that, but is was originally sold under the guise of exclusive content they were not going to re-sell. I believe there was some sort of threat/retaliation in there as well if you even talked about what happened "inside V8P", further reinforcing the idea of exclusivity.

2. When I purchased 8W Black they promised 3 updates - 1 each quarter for the next year. They delivered 2 over the course of 2 years. I emailed them regarding #3 about a year ago and they were super ambiguous like "Yeah, wait until you see what we have coming up", so I waited... given the updated content wasn't that great anyway, I don't care at this point.

3. Emails from 8Dio asking for $30 to essentially update the skin for older libraries. Take into consideration ProjectSAM's approach, which has always been to give free updates with NEW samples and a new interface. Even Spitfire has updated their libraries for free with new content and skins (though arguably Albion ONE is likely just reworked Albion I content, albeit very re-worked).

Empty promises and terrible, awful customer service.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 15, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> (though arguably Albion ONE is likely just reworked Albion I content, albeit very re-worked).



I never really thought of Albion One that way, mostly because as you said it seemed like a_ major_ overhaul. It does tell me something that I kept and use both One and the legacy Albion, because there are things I can't do with one that I can with the other. That's what keeps me from wholeheartedly agreeing with your assertion. There is a LOT similar, but ultimately not the same library imo.


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## SimonViklund (Mar 15, 2017)

@stonzthro
I didn't intend for this thread to be about ripping 8DIO all kinds of new a-holes but your dissatisfaction is duly noted. I realize the "what happens in V8P stays in V8P" could also be interpreted as them telling customers not to speak about V8P with others. In the light of their dubious business practice, you wonder if that was the intention all along - to offer disappointing time-limited exclusivity and hope that customers won't talk with one another and speak up en masse.

It seems they don't allow reviews of V8P products either (has anyone ever seen one?) and that idea fits into the shady strategy as well - upholding the mystery and perceived value of the V8P membership through a smokescreen of non-information and non-dialog between customers.

That thing about the 8W updates sounds real bad. I'm glad I didn't buy that library then. It's the same as with the V8P program: They shouldn't promise what they can't deliver.

Regarding what you say about half-assed updates of 8DIO products - can you give specific examples? My personal experience is with the Epic Percussion ensemble and I think 8DIO did a great job updating those libraries - and it was free for existing owners. And you _usually_ get quick and friendly answers when you email them. I'm unhappy with 8DIO/V8P but I'm not gonna pretend they haven't done some things right too.


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## stonzthro (Mar 15, 2017)

@SimonViklund Oh yeah - I forgot about those updates - I was thinking of the more recent emails for Hybrid I and Private Labs (another shady move I forgot about) - appear to be reskins only. (I'll leave the post as it stands to makes sense for other readers)

@Parsifal666 (derail) I too have kept much of Albion I and ONE in as well, as the rework is pretty fantastic and showed a LOT of effort. There may be new samples in there but Spitfire didn't herald it as such, so I think the majority is just a reworking - but I could be completely wrong here.


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## Mike Marino (Mar 15, 2017)

SimonViklund said:


> The orchestral content from *V8P 8W Black Edition* (btw, there are no other editions so why the "black edition" in the name?)


They initially had a Black Edition and a Silver Edition....the Black Edition being all of the things and the Silver Edition having fewer modules and fewer mic positions. I don't own either of these libraries but it's my understanding that the Silver Edition was released as Majestica...keeping the Black Edition intact for V8P members.


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## MillsMixx (Mar 15, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> yeah... 8dio... I'll field this call
> 
> Here's why I'm done with 8Dio:
> 
> ...



I have to agree with stonzthro on all of these points from my own experience. I've emailed them for questions regarding updates and bugs and was met with empty promises. Their emails literally in words "promised" me a solution would be fixed for a future update, or most of the time they don't get back. I've discovered with most of their older products they don't update, they just move on and create a new upgrade version and then charge you for it. I'm not here to bash 8dio because I like a lot of their products (I think their samples sound better than most companies) but when I saw this thread I'm just sharing my own _similar _experience. I've spent a LOT of money with them over the years enough to be a V8P because I like the "sound" of their products even though their interface tweakablity is challenged on a lot of stuff. On the other hand, they've been generous to me with a free Anthology Strings upgrade and some good exclusive 50% off specials as a V8P member. That new interface for the Hybrid I tools though was the worse $30 I've ever spent. Shouldn't have been charged for that. I'm thinking they'll be going that route with the other volumes soon. Thank you very much but I'll pass on that as I like the older cool looking interfaces better even if they are challenging to tweak.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Mar 15, 2017)

I have to agree here. From the recent information I have read regarding 8DIO, they seem to have been showing a markteing model that is friendly, but in practise, highly corporate and profit based.

They make great products and I appreciate the niche libraries, but I don't know where I stand with the moral compromise now.


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## procreative (Mar 15, 2017)

I had the complete Adagio and despite many "offers" and that last minute never to be repeated "last chance offer" before 8W Silver got re-released as Majestica, I resisted 8W despite being in V8P.

So glad. Because despite the grand claims, 8W seems to be a bit chorusy and synthetic sounding. I actually wonder sometimes if post-production techniques are used to fudge the extra players in some of their titles.

I also felt that for its price it lacked in the articulation dept. And what finally nailed it at the time for me was the lack of updates and love shown for Adagio. I just was not convinced the "forthcoming" extra content for 8W would materialise.

I don't begrudge companies needing to make revenue, they are not charities after all. I just feel 8Dio have, despite forming on the back of a reaction to the EW way of doing things, become rather similar in terms of re-releasing content and not delivering on the hype.


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## Quasar (Mar 15, 2017)

procreative said:


> I had the complete Adagio and despite many "offers" and that last minute never to be repeated "last chance offer" before 8W Silver got re-released as Majestica, I resisted 8W despite being in V8P.
> 
> So glad. Because despite the grand claims, 8W seems to be a bit chorusy and synthetic sounding. I actually wonder sometimes if post-production techniques are used to fudge the extra players in some of their titles.
> 
> ...



Man, you guys are harsh. No wonder they don't come here anymore...

I have a bunch of 8Dio stuff, and there are a few things (mainly UI related but a little bit sample related) in a few products I wish were different. But overall I am quite happy. But then, I only buy libraries for what they are TODAY, not for what they are rumored to become, certainly do not consider nonsense such as "exclusivity" (why should software EVER be exclusive?), and simply assume that any promises of loyalty rewards etc. down the road are possibly capitalist-driven marketing hype, or - however well-intentioned - may not be practically deliverable, but am instead pleasantly surprised if & when they actually do come to pass.

They were quite generous to me the one time I needed customer support, and I continue to believe that they're good people, just better at creating ideas and samples for libraries than they are at packaging & promoting their stuff, and sometimes cause rancor by accidentally tripping over their own feet in the marketing area, more than anything else.


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## Lee Blaske (Mar 15, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> 2. When I purchased 8W Black they promised 3 updates - 1 each quarter for the next year. They delivered 2 over the course of 2 years. I emailed them regarding #3 about a year ago and they were super ambiguous like "Yeah, wait until you see what we have coming up", so I waited... given the updated content wasn't that great anyway, I don't care at this point.



I wouldn't count the possibility of updates out. They've really surprised me with some pretty amazing, free updates of products I already owned. Totally out of the blue.


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## Ryan99 (Mar 15, 2017)

At some point, I received an offer to buy 8W Silver Edition "for the last time ever" with a discount. I decided to buy it, only to find out a couple of weeks later that they released Majestica, which has 1 more mic position and 10 Gb more samples that 8W Silver Edition. 

I wrote to them about my frustration. They sent me Majestica and another freebie.


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## stonzthro (Mar 15, 2017)

@Tugboat @Lee Blaske @Ryan99
Glad to hear you guys have had good experiences with 8Dio/V8P; I hold out little hope having been blown off multiple times, but you just never know.

I've weighed in enough, 8Dio will do what they will - peace my friends...


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 15, 2017)

Ryan99 said:


> At some point, I received an offer to buy 8W Silver Edition "for the last time ever" with a discount. I decided to buy it, only to find out a couple of weeks later that they released Majestica, which has 1 more mic position and 10 Gb more samples that 8W Silver Edition.
> 
> I wrote to them about my frustration. They sent me Majestica and another freebie.



Same story here


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## dhlkid (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi

V8P still worth to join?


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## SimonViklund (Mar 16, 2017)

dhlkid said:


> Hi
> 
> V8P still worth to join?


That's the thing - you don't know what V8P products are really worth it (and they're not cheap, trust me) because there are no reviews of them and the customers are discouraged to talk with one another.

If you buy a V8P product - despeite there being no reviews - *you will become suspicious of every 8DIO product they launch because you have reason to believe (but can't know for sure) that this new product contains content from the V8P product(s) you already own. *This is because they cannibalize the V8P products and sell them as 8DIO products with completely new names hoping that V8P customers will be none the wiser. Case in point: "V8P 8W" became "8DIO Majestica" and "Synphony", while "V8P Emperium Titan Choir" became "8DIO Lacrimosa".

I, for example, purchased the V8P products "Extreme Drum Machine Ensemble" and "Extreme Real Drumkit Ensemble" which are drum libraries that seemed to have innovative functions. I'm moderately happy with these purchases. Later, 8DIO releases "Hybrid Drums 8D8" and I'm intrigued (because I love their "Epic Drum Ensemble" so they clearly know how to sample drums and you can never have enough epic drum samples, right?) but now I have reason to believe a lot of its content is taken from the two aforementioned V8P products I already bought. 

I email 8DIO (twice) about it and ask for clarification but they refuse to answer. So that's the point of this entire thread (I'm the OP): This "loyalty program" has just given the VIP customers - the ones that 8DIO wanted to offer something exclusive - trust issues. It backfired.


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## Kejero (Mar 16, 2017)

I'm sure nobody cares, but here's my point of view: as a composer, exclusivity is not something you should expect to buy, it's something you should create. I don't give a rat's ass to how many people sample library developers sell their products. And I don't care about any promises made about this exclusivity, because I'm aware that breaking promises that were made during sales (or campaigns) are the norm in a capitalist world. I mean, you _are_ aware that all this "exclusive" talk is just about making you feel like a pretty, unique snow flake, right?

I do agree that it would be frustrating not knowing if one library that you're interested in, may or may not have the same content as another one you already have. Totally justified, and in that regard transparency about these products should definitely be improved, no argument there. On the other hand, I'm not sure that I understand how you're interested in buying that "new" product if you already have one that clearly sounds just like it. If you're _really_ that concerned about that one extra feature or bug fix, then put on your business hat and contact them to make a deal. And if they won't make that deal, then stop and ask yourself how important this really is.

It's so easy to be disillusioned by a product when there are a few flaws, but the moment that I've used a product in a project that made back my investment, that developer doesn't owe me anything. I definitely agree that 8DIO's libraries (or _any_ developer, really) are rarely flawless, but overall they are doing some kickass work and making my life a _whole_ lot easier.

Besides all that, I'm definitely happy about the _additional _benefits of being a V8P member that no one has mentioned here. Of course, since we're not supposed to talk about that, I'll leave it at that. (Although I'm sure someone else will happily reveal what I'm talking about and still feel like their _loyalty_ should be rewarded even more.)


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## SimonViklund (Mar 16, 2017)

As I said in my original post; I wouldn't care if the loyalty program never existed - but now that it _does _exist and they make claims about it, I hold them to their word. As you should. The idea that the products are exclusive isn't the selling point for me - I really just want great virtual instruments - but if _they make it a selling point_ it should be true. And again, there's the trust issue when different named products contain the same samples - and I can't believe Kejero somehow tries to pin that on me for wanting to buy several drum libraries.

Seems like the prevailing argument in the topic - for Lee Blaske, Tugboat and Kejero who for some reason aren't bothered by empty promises and misleading marketing - boils down to "c'est la vie": "It's a tough business and they gotta stay competitive." "That's how capitalism works." "Promises will be broken." To me, customers accepting (and even downplaying) a vendor behaving this way is either spineless or depressingly cynical.


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## procreative (Mar 16, 2017)

Kejero said:


> I'm sure nobody cares, but here's my point of view: as a composer, exclusivity is not something you should expect to buy, it's something you should create. I don't give a rat's ass to how many people sample library developers sell their products.



I am sure people who bought into the Scream libraries might disagree.

The point is if a library is sold with exclusivity being part of its USP, then buyers have a right to feel cheated. The repackaging of the Scream titles via 8Dio was (a) done in a quite opaque way not really revealing it was a repackage and (b) resold samples buyers were promised were only being sold on a limited basis.

When you are using pre-baked instruments with very recognisable phrases, overuse can negate their usefulness (think of the Bending Sustains in Symphobia, cannot count how many Discovery Channel shows its been on).

Point is, given 8Dio's business model, who is to say Century Strings won't be Adagio re-edited and re-scripted?


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## StatKsn (Mar 16, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> 2. When I purchased 8W Black they promised 3 updates - 1 each quarter for the next year. They delivered 2 over the course of 2 years. I emailed them regarding #3 about a year ago and they were super ambiguous like "Yeah, wait until you see what we have coming up", so I waited... given the updated content wasn't that great anyway, I don't care at this point.



IIRC V8P Emperium Choir (aka 8DIO Lacrimosa) had 3-4 expansions promised each Q, which never ever delivered. In the new site, they simply removed the mention for expansions. Even V8P's own "8W/Emperium vs Majestica/Lacrimosa" explanation page had "future expansions" as 8W/Emperium's advantage. If 8W's synth content was indeed repackaged for Synphony, then their position would be even worse - hybrid percs, synths and ambient/synth add-ons were also listed as 8W exclusive. If you are a V8P member, you can still read the page by searching "Emperium vs. Lacrimosa".

This is one of the many reasons (despite I like some of their libraries) I can't take 8DIO seriously anymore and unsubscribed from their list. They've made too many false promises (some of those well meant but apparently did not went well, some of those simply a borderline marketing trick) and I can't read through their marketing hyperboles (such as "Anthology is for you. The composer. The producer. The orchestrator. The person that wants the most expressive virtual strings ever created within a fingers touch.") anymore without depressing myself.

As for updates, they've done many surprising and good updates which I am very happy with, but as far as I know bugfixes were never delivered outside of early Adagio. For example, Lyre's short patch has one misplaced note whose pitch is half tone off, but they never fixed it (it takes 3-5 minutes to edit the .nki by yourself, though).


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## Quasar (Mar 16, 2017)

SimonViklund said:


> As I said in my original post; I wouldn't care if the loyalty program never existed - but now that it _does _exist and they make claims about it, I hold them to their word. As you should. The idea that the products are exclusive isn't the selling point for me - I really just want great virtual instruments - but if _they make it a selling point_ it should be true. And again, there's the trust issue when different named products contain the same samples - and I can't believe Kejero somehow tries to pin that on me for wanting to buy several drum libraries.
> 
> Seems like the prevailing argument in the topic - for Lee Blaske, Tugboat and Kejero who for some reason aren't bothered by empty promises and misleading marketing - boils down to "c'est la vie": "It's a tough business and they gotta stay competitive." "That's how capitalism works." "Promises will be broken." To me, customers accepting (and even downplaying) a vendor behaving this way is either spineless or depressingly cynical.



The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club.

You make a valid point, especially when isolated from the "exclusivity" appeal, which I can summon no sympathy for. I am probably in the depressingly cynical camp.

One problem is that it's not "either/or", but a continuum ranging from pure marketing b.s. to a relative absence of b.s. and every shade of gray in between. Both Spitfire and CinematicStrings/Studio, for instance, have employed sleight-of-hand tricks to cleverly rebrand in ways that work to maximize profit and circumvent crossgrade pricing expectations, yet you seldom hear anyone complaining about it, mainly because those shell games were more artfully played, not because they're less manipulative.

And yes, that is how capitalism works. (Is Coca Cola really better than Pepsi or vice versa? The entire developed world has become completely desensitized to being routinely lied to on that level. And what about the numerous and recurring "last chance" offers in which _the price will never be this low again!_ only to reappear in a week or month? These are lies too...) But saying that's how capitalism works, in my case, isn't remotely the same thing as saying that I approve of it, which would be, of course, a whole other discussion. But in the world that I actually live in, you buy library x and download & install it. If it works for you and you are happy with what you got for the price you paid, then great. But that's all there is. Expectations beyond that are bound to just drive you crazy. It took me a few days to get over CSS appearing about a week after I bought CS2. They even created a new website to further separate the library (cute!), and offered a slight discount for CS2 owners. Whatever. I like CS2 and got what I paid for.


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## SimonViklund (Mar 16, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> The entire developed world has become completely desensitized to being routinely lied to


I am, as proven by me starting this thread, clearly one who hasn't accepted that.

You make compelling cynical arguments.  I agree with most of what you're saying - the critical statement being that while you expect capitalism to equal shady business tactics, you don't approve of it.

However, you say that this is a whole other discussion - I don't think it is. I'm here to see if there are others who also don't approve of this and are willing to vote with their money. I for one will boycott 8DIO. How does your "not approving the effects of captialism" manifest itself exactly?


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## stonzthro (Mar 16, 2017)

OK, One more time and that's all.

The problem is breach of contract, not slight of hand marketing. A product purchased with a promise IS A CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT. 8Dio broke that - several times - with anyone who purchased 8WBlack and apparently Emperium. They set the terms and dates by which they would be accomplished - you give me $$, I give you a product and several updates within this timeline - they did not deliver or even apologize - end of story. This has nothing to do with capitalism or how the world has come to accept marketing. They promised a product and did not deliver. Will they deliver? Doubtful.

Cinematic Strings and Spitfire made no such promise or implied promise - apples and oranges. They are free to repackage their content in perpetuity.

Along with that V8P implied exclusivity and then changed their tune later. Whether you care about that aspect or not has nothing whatsoever to do with V8P's implied promise. To add insult to injury, 8Dio persuaded Private Labs to do THE EXACT SAME THING!

Fight Club is fictional.


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## StatKsn (Mar 16, 2017)

Private Labs might be a similar situation, but their products were ranging from $50 to $100 or so. 8W costs $1700.



procreative said:


> 8W seems to be a bit chorusy and synthetic sounding. I actually wonder sometimes if post-production techniques are used to fudge the extra players in some of their titles.



Though I know this is a very harsh and probably unnecessary perspective, I also have a question about authenticity of 8W's samples - is that really a 240-piece orchestra playing together, not a smaller session dubbed multiple times?

For such an ambitious and would be visually glorious project, there is no mention of the recording hall/cathedral nor a picture of the recording session. I found it quite strange considering that Tonehammer/8DIO/Soundiron's older products - such as Liberis - usually come with pictures of the session.


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## SimonViklund (Mar 16, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> OK, One more time and that's all.


Yeah I agree with everything you're saying. Money is always worth what it's said to be worth. 8DIO will never receive my $299 and later find out that the transaction was only worth $199. Because of this, the customer _always_ honors his part of the deal. I totally agree that it's breach of contract to fool someone into buying a product by making promises that are never delivered on. Some people just seem to accept being fooled.


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## Quasar (Mar 16, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> Fight Club is fictional.



I don't share your epistemological bias LOL... But if you really believe that you have been the victim of a material breach of contract (and this argument may well be legitimate, it sounds so to me), then perhaps you should get a lawyer and seek legal redress, file a lawsuit, take them to small claims court or whatever... Not being sarcastic. I'm serious. That's what people do in those sorts of circumstances.


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## kaiyoti (Mar 16, 2017)

@SimonViklund

The biggest problem is that you buy into marketing. As you claim "_I wouldn't care if the loyalty program never existed_" and the fact that you seem to actually seek for this "exclusiveness"... from a business. You realize how ridiculous that is right? These kinds of threads are recycled once every few months. I honestly don't understand why people bitch about "business practices"... complaining about loyalty. It's just how consumerism works. They want your money, they think of ways to get your money, and nimwits fall for it. As a consumer, buy something you need / want, not because the business tells you how special you are to them. While some companies will go above and beyond to make you feel like you're in a relationship, you can't expect all of them to... and at the end of the day, they just want your money.

The 2k requirement to get to V8P is not that hard to get, especially considering they use the retail price rather than the actual paid price. It's not exactly exclusive.



Tugboat said:


> One problem is that it's not "either/or", but a continuum ranging from pure marketing b.s. to a relative absence of b.s. and every shade of gray in between. Both Spitfire and CinematicStrings/Studio, for instance, have employed sleight-of-hand tricks to cleverly rebrand in ways that work to maximize profit and circumvent crossgrade pricing expectations, yet you seldom hear anyone complaining about it, mainly because those shell games were more artfully played, not because they're less manipulative.



This... just this. I thought it was ridiculous when people were giving praise to Spitfire and CSS while the 8Dio's Anthology repackaging blew up.


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## Quasar (Mar 16, 2017)

kaiyoti said:


> @SimonViklund
> ...It's just how consumerism works. They want your money, they think of ways to get your money, and nimwits fall for it. As a consumer, buy something you need / want, not because the business tells you how special you are to them. While some companies will go above and beyond to make you feel like you're in a relationship, you can't expect all of them to... and at the end of the day, they just want your money...



Yep. This summarizes it perfectly.


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## stonzthro (Mar 16, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> I don't share your epistemological bias LOL... But if you really believe that you have been the victim of a material breach of contract (and this argument may well be legitimate, it sounds so to me), then perhaps you should get a lawyer and seek legal redress, file a lawsuit, take them to small claims court or whatever... Not being sarcastic. I'm serious. That's what people do in those sorts of circumstances.



No interest in lawsuits - waste of time - I went to law school.


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## NoamL (Mar 16, 2017)

A lot of "That's capitalism for yah" cynicism here... nobody forced 8DIO to make those commitments. They made them freely, they should honor them.



Tugboat said:


> It took me a few days to get over CSS appearing about a week after I bought CS2. They even created a new website to further separate the library (cute!), and offered a slight discount for CS2 owners. Whatever. I like CS2 and got what I paid for.



I'm not sure what the problem is? It's a new library. None of the samples are the same. This is like being mad at EastWest for releasing Hollywood Strings right after you bought EWQLSO.


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## stonzthro (Mar 16, 2017)

kaiyoti said:


> @SimonViklund
> 
> The biggest problem is that you buy into marketing. As you claim "_I wouldn't care if the loyalty program never existed_" and the fact that you seem to actually seek for this "exclusiveness"... from a business. You realize how ridiculous that is right? These kinds of threads are recycled once every few months. I honestly don't understand why people bitch about "business practices"... complaining about loyalty. It's just how consumerism works. They want your money, they think of ways to get your money, and nimwits fall for it. As a consumer, buy something you need / want, not because the business tells you how special you are to them. While some companies will go above and beyond to make you feel like you're in a relationship, you can't expect all of them to... and at the end of the day, they just want your money.
> 
> ...



So being a victim is the fault of the victim - makes perfect sense.


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## procreative (Mar 16, 2017)

For the record, I do not single out 8Dio, other Devs are also sometimes as bad:

I did not particularly like Spitfire's rebranding of SCS, SSS, SSB, SSW etc. In some instances despite the fanfare it was merely a GUI refresh and rationalisation of the many folders the original "modular titles" created. I also find some of their cryptic teasers designed to generate pages of pontification tiresome.

For instance I find some of Spitfire's walkthroughs a bit silly – playing block chords in Solo Instruments or focusing on melodic content in a primarily aleotoric/experimental title such as LCOS.

I do find some developers are able to do equally questionable things but are defended to the hilt because either they make some great products or inspire over the top fanboyism. 

We need to separate product from commerce a bit, a good product is a good product, but sometimes overselling creates false expectations. 8Dio come off worse because they fill their marketing with too much hyerbole.

Whereas, to my mind, Sonokinetic and CSS/CS2 aka Alex Wallbank do things the most ethical and practical way. A simple "coming soon" announcement and plenty of Tutorials/Walkthroughs to know what you are buying.


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## kaiyoti (Mar 16, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> So being a victim is the fault of the victim - makes perfect sense.



It's a matter of perspective, you call it being a victim, I don't. Next time you click "I accept" after 2 seconds on a 12 page long terms and agreement that entitles the corporation to your first born, who do you blame?


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## John Busby (Mar 16, 2017)

procreative said:


> We need to separate product from commerce a bit, a good product is a good product, but sometimes overselling creates false expectations. 8Dio come off worse because they fill their marketing with too much hyerbole.


couldn't have worded it better!
same goes for the gaming industry, for instance...during gaming conventions the devs will showcase the most stunning looking graphical content and scripted gameplay that comes off as rehearsed and saturated with hyperbole as you put it.
Then when the game releases, it's like...wtf? is this even the same game?
The outcome - trashed reviews, returned games, in some cases the developer company goes under etc.

i think devs in the gaming world are finally learning that they need to deliver on their promises and follow through with the hype that they themselves create. I would hope that devs in the music industry like 8dio would come around and follow suite or the alternative....they're gonna lose customers.


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## stonzthro (Mar 16, 2017)

kaiyoti said:


> It's a matter of perspective, you call it being a victim, I don't. Next time you click "I accept" after 2 seconds on a 12 page long terms and agreement that entitles the corporation to your first born, who do you blame?



Oh, I see now - you are focusing on the exclusivity, which may or may not have been an actual part of the deal. My main point is the unfulfilled promises of additional content, which have nothing to do with the user agreement's fine print.


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## FriFlo (Mar 16, 2017)

I didn't go through all posts, but I must join the bunch of people that are frustrated by their policy. I recently bought the rest of Adagio and Agitato at a good sale - I thought! One month later, they offered an even better sale ... It is just stupid to do this kind of thing as people are gonna notice that kind of stuff, when you bombard them with your mails about sales! And nobody is going to like it to find out, he paid more than just a month later ...
And this is only one of the points that I find strange about their customer relationship ... but I don't wanna start with anything more. I just agree with some people here: Other companies are way smarter (some, at least a bit) to make their customers feel good about their purchases. I suppose, they could do better in business, if they followed these easy business rules!


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## Quasar (Mar 16, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> I didn't go through all posts, but I must join the bunch of people that are frustrated by their policy. I recently bought the rest of Adagio and Agitato at a good sale - I thought! One month later, they offered an even better sale ... It is just stupid to do this kind of thing as people are gonna notice that kind of stuff, when you bombard them with your mails about sales! And nobody is going to like it to find out, he paid more than just a month later ...
> And this is only one of the points that I find strange about their customer relationship ... but I don't wanna start with anything more. I just agree with some people here: Other companies are way smarter (some, at least a bit) to make their customers feel good about their purchases. I suppose, they could do better in business, if they followed these easy business rules!



A lot of people bought 70% blowout strings when the sale happened last Holiday season (and which were going to disappear but are still up). What better sale are you referring to?


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## FriFlo (Mar 16, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> A lot of people bought 70% blowout strings when the sale happened last Holiday season (and which were going to disappear but are still up). What better sale are you referring to?


I think it was Valentines day ... I can't really keep track with all of those countless sales. But I tried it out on their website and the deal way about 100 bugs cheaper than the sale just one month before.


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## schatzus (Mar 17, 2017)

Wow... I remember the days when this type of vitriol was usually directed at EWQL?


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## kaiyoti (Mar 17, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> Oh, I see now - you are focusing on the exclusivity, which may or may not have been an actual part of the deal. My main point is the unfulfilled promises of additional content, which have nothing to do with the user agreement's fine print.



Yes that one makes sense then. To be honest, neither of the two additional contents for the 8W library were worthwhile to me so I give very little notice to the unfulfilled one. If I have to guess, it'll just be synth patches or some more drum ensembles they'll eventually cook up or borrow from their other V8P libraries. I really can't justify the V8P libraries any more, the current trend seems to be... "what if we took regular sounds and put 200 of them in the same room to record". They might consider this a novelty but it's also a huge amount of money for uncommon use cases. However, their regular 8Dio releases (that don't follow that trend) are still quite tasteful to me. 

Having said that, OP seems more upset about the notion of exclusiveness. Remember that the goal of a "exclusive" program is completely different from the business side than what you think. They've led you to think that you are special because it's not available to everyone just by using that term. As a business, who would want less customers? It's really a means of creating demand... the "mystery" encourages customers to spend more so they can be in this exclusive club. As I've said before, the 2k requirement is really peanuts when you factor in the costs of most library samples these days as well as market price used instead of transaction price. Given that fact, did you really think it was a loyalty program? It's obvious marketing. When the sales guy says "just for you my friend, I'll throw in xyz for free", do you really think they meant "just for you".


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## synthetic (Mar 17, 2017)

Wow, so much hate for a company that gives a nice discount and exclusives to their most loyal customers. No wonder 8dio don't post here anymore.


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## SimonViklund (Apr 27, 2017)

I've been contacted by 8DIO because of my post that started this thread. I will leave the post intact but make the text grey so that the thread as a whole can be understood by anyone who finds it later.

*First off*, 8DIO never emailed me back because I apparently contacted them through an email address that they had retired. I was mad at them for not answering but it turned out to be an unfortunate mishap which was really no one's fault.

*Second*, 8DIO explained that Synphony contains no samples from V8P 8W Black Edition. They also assured me that their product Hybrid Drums 8D8 contains no samples from any of their other products. These were both accusations I made because of other V8P products being relabled and sold as "regular" 8DIO products. I was wrong.

*Third*, I have visited their V8P section and they have added an explanation about what products in there are also sold as "regular" 8DIO products, a type of transparency which - in my opinion - was badly needed.

My respect for 8DIO has been restored.


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## airflamesred (Apr 28, 2017)

SimonViklund said:


> My respect for 8DIO has been restored.


Well fair play to you Sir.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 28, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> But It took me a few days to get over CSS appearing about a week after I bought CS2. They even created a new website to further separate the library (cute!), and offered a slight discount for CS2 owners. Whatever. I like CS2 and got what I paid for.



Took you a few days to get over it? I don't get it. What exactly was there to get over? And are you complaining about the discount they offered (which they didn't have to do)? I'm not trying to bash you here, but I am having difficulty understanding this post.


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## wst3 (Apr 28, 2017)

Thanks for sharing that! My own experience has been similar, when you get in touch with them they do the right thing, but I think they are so focused on their development (and that's the thing that feeds the kids!) that they sometimes overlook all the rest of running a business. It has taken a couple tries sometimes to get things resolved, but they always resolve. AND, both Troels and Colin have been more than helpful, and candid, when it comes to selecting libraries. I think it's pretty cool that they both still answer emails!


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## Quasar (Apr 28, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> Took you a few days to get over it? I don't get it. What exactly was there to get over? And are you complaining about the discount they offered (which they didn't have to do)? I'm not trying to bash you here, but I am having difficulty understanding this post.


It doesn't matter, as it's not an important thing to understand. IMO CSS was made "just dissimilar enough" to sell it as a separate product and not as an upgrade, yet "similar enough" to be arguably redundant. IOW ordinary market capitalism with the usual games and gimmicks designed to maximize revenue. That's all. No biggie.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 28, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> It doesn't matter, as it's not an important thing to understand. IMO CSS was made "just dissimilar enough" to sell it as a separate product and not as an upgrade, yet "similar enough" to be arguably redundant. IOW ordinary market capitalism with the usual games and gimmicks designed to maximize revenue. That's all. No biggie.


Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying that the dark side of capitalism is responsible for the creation of CSS?


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## Quasar (Apr 28, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying that the dark side of capitalism is responsible for the creation of CSS?


LOL of course not! Capitalism doesn't create anything.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 28, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> LOL of course not! Capitalism doesn't create anything.



Really? Not even motivation?


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## Ashermusic (Apr 28, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> It doesn't matter, as it's not an important thing to understand. IMO CSS was made "just dissimilar enough" to sell it as a separate product and not as an upgrade, yet "similar enough" to be arguably redundant. IOW ordinary market capitalism with the usual games and gimmicks designed to maximize revenue. That's all. No biggie.




Just to be clear, CSS sounds very little like CS 2 IMHO.


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