# Syncing playhead operations between two DAW



## martijns (Jun 10, 2016)

Hi guys,

I'm my last thread i got some advice to work with two DAW's for different purposes.
I got almost everything working well, except one minor thing.

I try to get Logic to sync with Protools and vice versa. 
I've managed to get them in sync with MTC.

I will use Logic as Master when writing Midi tracks into it, and i will use Protools as Master when editing audio or mixing. For both situations i just have to switch the Master and Slave modes in the sync option menu's. 

MTC already syncs the transport play and stop fine, but what i won't get to work is thing like moving the playhead.

What i like to see is, when i'm not playing any of the two DAW's but just drag the playhead of one of the two (demanding on what situation i'm in, midi or audio) i will see the playhead of the other one moving to this point, without hitting the play button.

Could this be done with Midi Machine Control? I got MMC configured, but i don't notice any difference in one of both DAW's..

What i've done in the Midi tracking situation is the following:
- Setup an IAC bus with 1 out and 1 in bus in the Midi config window
- Logic is MTC Master (transmitting MTC)
- Protools is MTC Slave (Reading MTC and online)
- Logic is MMC Slave (Listening to MMC input)
- Protools is MMC Master (Transmitting at the same IAC bus at id 127 and 90frames pre-roll)

For the audio situation this config is just switched, so Protools MTC Master Logic MTC Slave and Logic MMC Master, Protools MMC Slave.

Is this even possible to do?

Thanks a lot for your tips and help!


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## leggylangdon (Jun 10, 2016)

Hi there 

I feel ya pain on this one...there really is no great streamline solution for this workflow. I'm really only using the sync once I ready to print audio into Pro Tools from Logic via my Rednet system.

One thing to note is the IAC Bus doesn't carry MMC data. You should make a separate connection for MMC using the Mac built in Network Midi and then use this virtual port to send MMC. This works good but you have to reconnect every time you boot the Mac. 

Also if Logic is the master MTC then it needs to be the slave MMC. But I've never had any luck this way round as Pro Tools doesn't seem to like being the MMC master. I always have Pro Tools as my MTC master and Logic as my MMC master. Then there is a setting in Logics sync setting to send scrub data, make sure that is checked and you should be golden.


Leggy






martijns said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm my last thread i got some advice to work with two DAW's for different purposes.
> I got almost everything working well, except one minor thing.
> ...


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 10, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> Also if Logic is the master MTC then it needs to be the slave MMC. But I've never had any luck this way round as Pro Tools doesn't seem to like being the MMC master. I always have Pro Tools as my MTC master and Logic as my MMC master. Then there is a setting in Logics sync setting to send scrub data, make sure that is checked and you should be golden.
> 
> Leggy



+1 but there might be a delay in hitting play and having it play when it's MTC slave. That's the issue with doing it in Cubase. Not sure if it's the same in Logic.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 10, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> +1 but there might be a delay in hitting play and having it play when it's MTC slave. That's the issue with doing it in Cubase. Not sure if it's the same in Logic.



Yes there is normally a slight delay after you hit play in Logic bfore playback starts and then whilst the MTC catches up. This is normal sync behavior, it usually syncs within 2 bars. As I said before, this workflow is not without its flaws. 

The only really sample tight sync option for linking DAWs is Rewire. But as both Pro Tools and Logic are only Rewire Masters...linking these puppy's is a no go which is such a shame as that would be the best of all worlds for me, also the rewire technology is pretty old these days and is quite limited. Im hoping one of these days there will be a better solution to link DAWs

But hey its only rock n roll...or in most peoples cases on here...composition


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 10, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> Yes there is normally a slight delay after you hit play in Logic bfore playback starts and then whilst the MTC catches up. This is normal sync behavior, it usually syncs within 2 bars. As I said before, this workflow is not without its flaws.
> 
> The only really sample tight sync option for linking DAWs is Rewire. But as both Pro Tools and Logic are only Rewire Masters...linking these puppy's is a no go which is such a shame as that would be the best of all worlds for me, also the rewire technology is pretty old these days and is quite limited. Im hoping one of these days there will be a better solution to link DAWs
> 
> But hey its only rock n roll...or in most peoples cases on here...composition



Actually the best option for this is using 2 Steinberg programs or 2 Pro Tools. With 2 Steinbergs they sync flawlessly and instantly even with just MTC connected. You basically can't tell that they're separate programs. Pro Tools has their satellite sync which I believe is even more precise.

I've been thinking about getting a Nuendo license so that I can run both on one machine instead of having all the PT sync issues or needing to use a second computer for a second Cubase.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 10, 2016)

Yes that is certainly the best way to link Steinberg products together. Ive heard great things about that workflow! Would love to hear about your experience with it if you ever pull the trigger.

Just wish syncing Logic and Pro Tools or Cubase and Pro Tools was as streamlined...maybe one day


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 10, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> Yes that is certainly the best way to link Steinberg products together. Ive heard great things about that workflow! Would love to hear about your experience with it if you ever pull the trigger.
> 
> Just wish syncing Logic and Pro Tools or Cubase and Pro Tools was as streamlined...maybe one day



I've worked with Cubase/Nuendo while at another composer's studio and it worked fine. I've tested it on my computer with the Nuendo demo and it seems to work as long as I use a Max patch to get my midi ports to work on both or else whichever DAW you open first blocks off the midi ports. Doesn't seem to be an issue with Macs since the OS has it's own midi setup. 

Going with Nuendo (or just a second Cubase rig) also lets you work in surround without having to get an HD rig which saves money although you can find HD licenses for around $1000 (but I can get the educational Nuendo for $600). Unless you need to deliver as a PT session or already have an HD rig, I'd suggest going with a second Nuendo if you're a Cubase user since it's cheaper and has far better sync. 

Right now I'm looking for something like Video Slave 2 (which I've heard syncs properly) that works on Windows and allows you to import in music tracks in surround. It would just be simpler than running a second DAW although it costs just as much as Nuendo for me  My idea would be to import a mixdown of each cue to it for reference while keeping the stems in another folder and then either build a final master session with the stems at the end of the project or just deliver the stems. You'd basically get the split DAW approach while only running 1 full DAW.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jun 10, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> that works on Windows



I didn't find that info on the website :/


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 10, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> I didn't find that info on the website :/



Like I said, I'm looking for something like it that works on Windows.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jun 10, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Like I said, I'm looking for something like it that works on Windows.



Oh, sorry... my eyes have fooled me. Thanks.


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## samphony (Jun 11, 2016)

Too all Logic users


leggylangdon said:


> Yes there is normally a slight delay after you hit play in Logic bfore playback starts and then whilst the MTC catches up. This is normal sync behavior, it usually syncs within 2 bars. As I said before, this workflow is not without its flaws.
> 
> The only really sample tight sync option for linking DAWs is Rewire. But as both Pro Tools and Logic are only Rewire Masters...linking these puppy's is a no go which is such a shame as that would be the best of all worlds for me, also the rewire technology is pretty old these days and is quite limited. Im hoping one of these days there will be a better solution to link DAWs
> 
> But hey its only rock n roll...or in most peoples cases on here...composition



The delay is only happening with logic 10. I worked with two Logic Pro 9 setups 4 month ago where one mac was the stem recorder and video playback and the other the master. (synced via Ethernet) Playback and MMC where instantaneous!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 12, 2016)

samphony said:


> Too all Logic users
> 
> 
> The delay is only happening with logic 10. I worked with two Logic Pro 9 setups 4 month ago where one mac was the stem recorder and video playback and the other the master. (synced via Ethernet) Playback and MMC where instantaneous!



From what I've heard, the DAWs all have slight variations to MTC and MMC so when syncing 2 of the same like 2 Steinbergs or 2 Logics it works fine but the issue is with syncing to different ones where the don't fully support each other's format.


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## wst3 (Jun 12, 2016)

laugh if you must... I have had great success synchronizing two computers running two different DAWs using - wait for it - a SMPTE Timecode generator (in my case a MIDIMan Syncman Pro). I no longer use PT, but I have to believe it will slave to timecode. There are still a handful of timecode generators on the market (MOTU for one) so that might streamline your process. It also eliminates the need for MIDI Machine Control, which was always a little wonky for me. The only configuration I remember working flawlessly was a Fostex hard disk recorder (108?) as the master and either Cakewalk Pro Audio (yes, this was a long time ago) or Bars&Pipes Pro (I said a LONG time ago) - worked like a charm in both cases, and I also used the timecode trick to sync all three platforms a couple of times. Prior to that it was timecode recorded to tape track, we won't talk about that.

All of which makes me scratch my head about why MTC & MMC wouldn't work just as well. The only gotcha I can imagine is that not every MMC device may transmit or understand Song Position Pointer - that's a pretty old part of the standard, haven't used it is eons. So you might have to start a measure early when you are skipping around so that the MTC can lock things up. I have to imagine that a DAW will lock up hundreds of times faster (and more accurately) than a tape deck! The more I think about it I think Gerhard is on the right track - it probably has to do with which parts of the MIDI standard are being used in the two platforms, and how they are being used.

I might just have to do some experimenting in my spare time<G>...


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 12, 2016)

wst3 said:


> laugh if you must... I have had great success synchronizing two computers running two different DAWs using - wait for it - a SMPTE Timecode generator (in my case a MIDIMan Syncman Pro). I no longer use PT, but I have to believe it will slave to timecode. There are still a handful of timecode generators on the market (MOTU for one) so that might streamline your process. It also eliminates the need for MIDI Machine Control, which was always a little wonky for me. The only configuration I remember working flawlessly was a Fostex hard disk recorder (108?) as the master and either Cakewalk Pro Audio (yes, this was a long time ago) or Bars&Pipes Pro (I said a LONG time ago) - worked like a charm in both cases, and I also used the timecode trick to sync all three platforms a couple of times. Prior to that it was timecode recorded to tape track, we won't talk about that.
> 
> All of which makes me scratch my head about why MTC & MMC wouldn't work just as well. The only gotcha I can imagine is that not every MMC device may transmit or understand Song Position Pointer - that's a pretty old part of the standard, haven't used it is eons. So you might have to start a measure early when you are skipping around so that the MTC can lock things up. I have to imagine that a DAW will lock up hundreds of times faster (and more accurately) than a tape deck! The more I think about it I think Gerhard is on the right track - it probably has to do with which parts of the MIDI standard are being used in the two platforms, and how they are being used.
> 
> I might just have to do some experimenting in my spare time<G>...



I've looked into using timecode but I found that MTC uses the same sync as SMPTE so I figured it wouldn't make a difference. You're talking about using LTC, right? I believe Pro Tools needs the HD Sync to be able to use LTC. I'd be curious to see if it works and how well. 

I've also heard that the MTC issue has to do with continuous vs non-continuous versions and which ones the developers choose to use.


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## wst3 (Jun 13, 2016)

the reason I kept (keep?) the SMPTE LTC generator/reader around is that it is a mature standard that is handled well by most (if not all) tools. MIDI Timecode is basically SMPTE LTC tunneled through (encapsulated in?) MIDI. And that makes tremendous sense - the audio version of LTC can wreak havoc in an audio studio<G>!

What I've seen is different tools including different subsets of the MIDI standard, or worse, misinterpreting the standard (there is a famous story about an interpretation error at Yamaha shaping the MIDI modes).

And some of that changes from generation to generation... Sonar, as recently as X1, would wait for MTC and start upon receipt, and it would start at the right spot. Worked well. It might still work, I'll have to try.

The Cakewalk implementation of MMC, on the other hand, changed quite a bit, I think around the time they introduced control surfaces as plugins. Worked like a charm, and then one day it didn't.

For me the real challenge is that I don't use MTC or MMC every day, so I can go ages (and versions) without noticing it isn't working, only to discover a problem when I can least afford to fix it.

I think MIDI represents one of the best examples of a standard - but for those tiny little parts that don't always work they way we'd like it can be a bit frustrating!!!!


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## Jaredf920 (Jun 13, 2016)

Another pro/con:
When syncing 2 Steinberg DAWs, one master (sequencer) -one slave (video/stemming), they sync instantly & are sample accurate. This is the same for using 2x logic, or 2x pro tools....
When slaving Pro Tools to a different DAW (Logic, Cubase ,etc.) there is a small delay, in my experience, anywhere from 0.5-3seconds. Also, when recording stems into Pro Tools like this, it is NOT sample-accurate. Meaning, if you record stems separately (pass of winds, then strings, then perc.... or everything & one instrument was popping/clicking, so you go back to get it on its own) the audio can be a little off... Say you have a very rhythmic tutti section, you may have to go into pro tools & slide some audio around a tiny bit for it to sound as "together" as it did when you wrote it. 

I've experienced this happening with Audio only, Audio & MIDI, as well as MIDI only sessions.

The delay doesn't really affect workflow so much, you just start a bar or 2 earlier than what you want to hear.
And unless it is a suuuuuper dense project, that the slaves/main are having problems with, Stemming into PT is great. I've had some cases where, for instance, the string machine is popping & clicking, but everything recorded in fine, so I go back to print just the string machine stuff again, its fine & it is perfectly lined up in Pro Tools with the other stems. Only once in a while do I need to go & slide audio around a tiny bit in PT to make sure its lined up....

That said, we use Logic as a sequencer & Pro Tools as the video/print machine. I'm switching to Cubase though, but I will probably keep using Pro Tools for video.


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