# We like the music a lot but we want less of it



## wonshu (Jun 22, 2008)

Hey guys,

I constantly have to deal with beginner directors (well... i'm trying to heed Basil Poledouris' words and grow with the industriy) and almost _every_ time I do something, I get this same reaction:

The music overpowers the film, we love the music, but it seems to be taking over, blah blah blah...

Is this vanity and jealousy on the directors part that he is afraid that the music is "too good" which, I know, sounds very arrogant on my part but they wouldn't be calling me if they didn't like what I do, so what other way of interpreting do I have?

And I don't even go for the large ensemble type of music, I'm reducing as much as I can, a piano motiv with 5 notes, very slowly, not in the way of the dialog, outlining the mood....

But what I'm always asked for is to foreshadow the upcoming scene. I personally think that that is one of the worst tricks to play on the audience. I hate it when I watch a film and it happens, it insults my intelligence and my following the story, it takes the surprise out of twisted development it's like playing a diminished ta- ta- taaahh that may work well on the Simpsons or South Park...

Aaargh...

How do you guys deal with it?

Best
Hans


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Jun 22, 2008)

Good spotting sessions and temp music. 

In your case have them be sure they want music in a given scene, and have the ditor and director come up with what they feel is fitting music.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2008)

As usual, very good advice from Christian. You can also try lowering the volume of the music in the overall mix, so that it's not too much of a shock for the director. If there was no temp music before, they will be very used to viewing the scene with no music. So your music is something they have to get used to.


----------



## careyford (Jun 22, 2008)

I find that with the director in the room, go through and change a couple things, looking mysteriously busy and then before playing it back again, turn it down. Volume really does seem to be the number one problem with a cue.

I've also had it help to get them talking about why the cue is wrong/overpowering and then wait a day. This makes the director feel more involved in the process.

Richard


----------



## RiffWraith (Jun 22, 2008)

wonshu @ Sun Jun 22 said:


> Is this vanity and jealousy on the directors part that he is afraid that the music is "too good"



Unlikely. If you were in a competition; if the director's cousin was trying to get the gig scoring the film, but the producer really wanted you, then maybe. Otherwise, it's probably just a matter of, a) the director doesn't know what he wants (see below), or, b) the music really is too big.



Christian Marcussen @ Sun Jun 22 said:


> Good spotting sessions and temp music...



...do not always work with beginner directors. Why? Because they are not musicians who don't know what they want. Seasoned directors are not musicians who do know what they want - big difference. Of course occasionaly you find one who is, but not often. But alas, you should have temp music. And then follow it. If the director doesn't like wnat you did, you can then turn around and say - tactfully - "ok, I was following the temp score...let's listen to the temp score again and tell me where you hear it going".



wonshu @ Sun Jun 22 said:


> But what I'm always asked for is to foreshadow the upcoming scene.



So then do it. It doesn't matter if you feel that is one of the worst tricks to play on the audience. If that's what the director wants, you have to do it, unless you are a magician at tactfully telling and convincing him that's _not_ what he wants. Unlikely.

If the music overpowers the film - are they talking orchestration-wise, melody-wise...what? Don't be afraid to - tactfully - ask the director to be specific about what he means by "overpowers". nail him down to something concrete so that you have some...ahem - _direction_ to go in. If you have a simple piano line, maybe make it an octave lower, so it doesn't "interfere" so much.

Good luck.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2008)

** warning: imminent thread-jacking in progress **

Jeffrey,

I just wanted to share that I really liked your score to that futuristic game trailer you did - very cool! =o


----------



## RiffWraith (Jun 22, 2008)

** warning: imminent thread-jacking continuing** 

Ned,

Thank you! Umm, which one? 8)


----------



## Bruce Richardson (Jun 22, 2008)

There are so many variables in a situation like this it is hard to judge.

You may be working with young directors whose level of talent is not as honed as your own. It's still your job to deliever the best possible score for the dramòe7   }/Ée7   }/Êe7   }/Ëe7   }/Ìe7   }/Íe7   }/Îe7   }/Ïe7   }/Ðe7   }/Ñe7   }/Òe7   }/Óe7   }/Ôe7   }/Õe7   }/Öe7   }/×e7   }/Øe7   }/Ùe7   }/Úe7   }/Ûe7   }/Üe7   }/Ýe7   }/Þe7   }/ße7   }/àe7   }/áe7   }/âe7   }/ãe7   }/äe9   }.Íe9   }.Îe9   }.Ïe9   }.Ðe9   }/åe9   }/æe9   }/çe9   }/èe9   }/ée9   }/êe9   }/ëe9   }/ìe9   }/íe9   }/îe9   }/ïe9   }/ðe9   }/ñe9   }/òe9   }/óe9   }/ôe:   }/õe:   }/öe:   }/÷e:   }/øe:   }/ùe:   }/úe:   }0Me:   }0Ne:   }0Oe:   }0Pe:   }0Qe:   }0Re;   }/ûe;   }/üe;   }/ýe;   }/þe;   }/ÿe;   }0 e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0	e;   }0
e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0 e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0e;   }0 e;   }0!e;   }0"e;   }0#e;   }0$e;   }0%e;   }0&e;   }0'e;   }0(e;   }0)e;   }0*e;   }0+e;   }0,e;   }0-e;   }0.              òe;   }00e;   }01e;   }02e;   }03e;   }04e;   }05e;   }06e;   }07e;   }08e;   }09e;   }0:e;   }0;e;   }0<e;   }0=e;   }0>e;   }0?e;   }[email protected]e;   }0Ae;   }0Be;   }0Ce;   }0De;   }0Ee;   }0Fe;   }0Ge;   }0He;   }0Ie;   }0Je;   }0Ke;   }0Le<   }0Se<   }0Te<   }0Ue<   }0Ve<   }0We<   }0Xe<   }0Ye<   }0Ze<   }0[e<   }0\e=   }0]e=   }0^e=   }0_e=   }0`e=   }0ae=   }0be=   }0ce=   }0de=   }0ee=   }0fe=   }0ge=   }0he=   }0ie=   }0je=   }0ke=   }0le=   }0me=   }0ne=   }0oe=   }0pe=   }0qe=   }0re=   }0se=   }0te=   }0ue=   }0ve=   }0we=   }0xe=   }0ye=   }0ze=   }0{e=   }0|e=   }0}e=   }0~e=   }0e=   }0€e=   }0e=   }0‚


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2008)

RiffWraith @ 22/6/2008 said:


> ** warning: imminent thread-jacking continuing**
> 
> Ned,
> 
> Thank you! Umm, which one? 8)



The one with the woman reading a book about The Death of 2012 or something of the kind.


----------



## wonshu (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks, good points, especially about transcending my personal reluctance.

So far I have always looked at it that way and I have always pleased the directors in the end and they were really happy.

Perhaps I just needed to vent again, because this time it actually was really sparse music already... 

Ah... filmmakers... 

Thanks for the ideas guys....
But does or did no one ever have to deal with this sort of thing?

Best
Hans


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2008)

You bet!!! Why do you think it's common that 20-60% or more cues are not used in the final mix? It's not all directors who are communicative enough to actually tell the composer that their music is taking up too much room. In some cases, you never find out what they really think until you go to the mix to hear the final result.


----------



## nomogo (Jun 22, 2008)

If you can, put the MX volume on a single fader that is easy for you to adjust during a show-and-tell with the director. If you think it may be loud then lower it. Had a class with Christopher Young and this is exactly what he does when showing cues to a director, they assign the volume to the fader closest to where he's sitting during the show-and-tell. 

The loudness of the cue can have a huge impact on a director... they don't always know that its a simple thing to change, in their mind it could make the music 'wrong'. As you mentioned in this instance its just a solo piano, I could see how it being too loud could easily draw attention to it.

Theres always the trick as mentioned of taking a moment to 'make changes' and just lower the volume and see what the director thinks.

Don't let this sort of thing frustrate you, learn from it. It's a difficult task for us composer's to try and communicate something musical with a director who is non-musical. Those successful film composer's have found ways to make it work.


----------



## Andreas Moisa (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi,

in my experience there are two main reasons, why a composer has troubles with a director:
a) the director is a beginner and is unsure of what he wants or he cannot communicate it the right way 
b) the director/producer needs the job very much (say in commercials when the production company wants to convince a new client)

So, a lot of this trouble does not necessarily have to do with the actual music at all.
One has to learn not to take this personally and hope for the times when you work with people who know what they want and trust you in your abilities.
We had a job where the production company/director only listened to half the music and let the other half go through, because they thought we'd do it right anyway...
And then again, we did a job, where they listened to half the music and then we got fired...

The "volume" advice is the most important advice you can get, always play them the music that's probably "too big" but "right" at a certain volume a little turned down and play them the cue where they wish the music to be intense a little too loud, that will do the trick in 80percent of the times...If that doesn't help - make a new cue, sometimes a new start will feel better even to yourself.

We tend to deliver a little more music than a little too less music, because at the dubstage often cues get thrown out or replaced with other cues - so much to "we want less of it". This can be the director's choice in the very end of the mixing process and i easier to achieve than: We need a cue for that scene - can you mail it in an hour?

Man, I will have to remember this post next time I get a nervous breakdown from too much criticism to my music :D


----------



## Lunatique (Jul 3, 2008)

Right now I'm scoring a film by young brother directors, and I try to be as collaborative as I can, even when I'm told "We trust you completely based on the conversations we've had." I ask them to participate in the spotting, and they declined. I still go ahead and send them my spotting notes to comment on. They tell me they love it and it totally works and they trust me completely. I get on AIM and ask for their preference on certain things, and they basically stick to "We trust you completely." And this goes on for every step of the scoring process.

So, no matter what, I never assume it's ok for me to just forge ahead without consulting the director. I give them chances to be collaborative at every step of the project. This way, I minimized the chances of getting cues rejected.


----------



## wonshu (Jul 3, 2008)

See, my point is:

They love it, the music works, it creates a nice setting which they admit and still the argument is: the music overpowers the film, although it's, as I said, two very very sparsly arpeggiated alternating piano chords.

My suspicion is always, that they are afraid of other directors saying: "oh jeez... that's easy, slap some nice music under your film and it works... I could have done that". I have heard that argument over and over again between directors.

No one else ever hear about this?

Best
Hans


----------



## Waywyn (Jul 3, 2008)

wonshu @ Thu Jul 03 said:


> See, my point is:
> 
> They love it, the music works, it creates a nice setting which they admit and still the argument is: the music overpowers the film, although it's, as I said, two very very sparsly arpeggiated alternating piano chords.
> 
> ...



A few thoughts from me:

If someone tells me that the music is overpowering the movie/scene/setting/whatever. I just think about which instrument, ensemble, line or chords he could mean. I could play him the parts soloed one by one. Just to get an analysis of what he is trying to say and means.

It is hard to write or talk about music, but being a pro it doesn't necessarily only mean to create a highly unique sophisticated composition which would blow every other composers mind - no. You goal is, as Troels already mentioned, to support the director.

Also, I am not saying that you do this, it is wrong to insist on created stuff. If the track is overpowering or not suitable, there is no use to discuss that with the director to make him wanting it. It is his movie and he has a vision. Again, I am not saying that you did or do this. Just as a general thought.

So my closest guess would be, to search or check that overpowering element in your music. Probably your arpeggiated piano chord is just too busy for what he had in mind? Try to break it up. Don't play e.g. 4th or 8th notes, but leave a half note every 2 bars or something similar to this.

I think as composers or musicians in general we are kind of cursed, because we analyze music all the time we hear it. We hear a chord and a line and instantly go: "Wow cool, ... he just played an Abmin pentatonic over an A Maj chord which makes it go lydian" or "That 5/8 sounds just as it would be a common 4/4.

So with that in mind, a real pro composer should have the ability to listen to music as a listener would do it (again, I am not saying that you aren't). Leaving all the theory and knowledge aside and just hear the final result by seeing it in the final conjunction with the music.

In my opinion that's what makes Hans Zimmer so successful. One can say what he wants, but he definitely understands to support a scene in order to melt the music with the scene to generate these final 100% of what we notice when we are experiencing a movie (I didn't say, what we see when watching, on purpose ) ...


----------



## poseur (Jul 3, 2008)

wonshu @ Thu Jul 03 said:


> See, my point is:
> 
> They love it, the music works, it creates a nice setting which they admit and still the argument is: the music overpowers the film, although it's, as I said, two very very sparsly arpeggiated alternating piano chords.
> 
> ...


i've never heard that put so plainly,
on the hundreds of films with which i've been
musically involved.

it's true, in my experience, that fewer & fewer directors
seem capable of delivering a film that is 
creatively whole & integrated
_before_ original music is created for it,
which i find both sad & frustrating.

otoh:
i may have a very different take on your "problem",
if i relate it to my own film-related music.

typically, *i* feel that i nearly always overwrite, initially,
and spend a fair amount of my time paring-down,
re-timing & re-pacing my initial compositional responses to picture, story, character & flow (or, "arc").
as well, if i'm writing directly to picture (and not simply conforming previously off-picture _inspired_ compositions),
i've learnt that it serves me better 
to compose with dialogue UP,
source music ON (when its adjacent-to-score placement
in the picture is confirmed), etc.
sometimes, i find it more satisfying to not "complete" my musical ideas very often during the "arc" of the picture,
but to allow the picture/dialogue/etc to do that 
for itself on a moment-by-moment/scene-by-scene basis, and
will choose _very_ carefully the moment(s) where the musical representations might be presented "in full".....
seems increasingly that this has become a key portion
of my learning to focus on pacing & spacing
for the sake of the picture.

d


----------



## Lunatique (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm probably not the only one here, but I think to really dig into this discussion, we have to see actual footages containing your cues that directors have pointed out. It is entirely possible that you could've overdone certain emotional aspects, but we can't tell until we see examples.

As far as the concern of directors fearing that good music will show up the weakness of their direction--I have never heard of that. At least when I direct I never think like that. BUT, it is very possible that a mediocre director can have a very good composer do the score, and when you watch the finished the result, you can't help but think "Jesus, the composer is so talented and in contrast he makes the director/writer look like some hack." If that is indeed what's happening to you, then I think it's a great thing! But if a few directors have told you the same thing, I'm more inclined to think you might be overdoing certain things in your score.


----------



## poseur (Jul 3, 2008)

Waywyn @ Thu Jul 03 said:


> I think as composers or musicians in general we are kind of cursed, because we analyze music all the time we hear it. We hear a chord and a line and instantly go: "Wow cool, ... he just played an Abmin pentatonic over an A Maj chord which makes it go lydian" or "That 5/8 sounds just as it would be a common 4/4.


indeed.
if one experiences film-music (or, music-music!) primarily
or overpoweringly in this way,
i'd be forced to suggest that the wrong career/oeuvre was chosen!
though, i tend to respectfully disagree with your perspective on
the core-nature of HZ's success, as deserved as it may be.

d


----------



## wonshu (Jul 3, 2008)

This is the track I'm talking about, I can't show the film ATM:

http://www.hanshafner.de/quickupload/10000000_toedliche_reue_1-1.mp3 (http://www.hanshafner.de/quickupload/10 ... ue_1-1.mp3)


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 3, 2008)

Beautiful and subtle. It's almost too walking-on-eggshells for me, like you're playing piano in a room full of sleeping babies that you don't want to wake up! 

Sometimes I think the issue is that with some insecure directors (WHAT? Impossible!), adding music that is beautiful, haunting, takes away from the focus, which is *their* story, images, vision, ego, etc. Maybe subconsciouslly, they feel that your cue is calling too much attention, it's too interesting. We might forget that it's a film by Steven Hitchschnabel, with music by Hans Hafner.


----------



## wonshu (Jul 3, 2008)

poseur @ Thu Jul 03 said:


> mildly spastic sense of repetition
> with its own eventual meanderingly linear development.....
> 
> is the piece meant to play the "deathly touch"?



spastic, ey? I knew there were some after-effects to that car crash (I was on the bike in that incident, but the car was damaged more than me... I won I guess...)

Yes, the film is about a man accidentally killing his lover and then, while the police is outside to pick him up, confesses it to his wife. Well... he doesn't say it in dialog but through flashbacks.

Right from the beginning he is sort of "haunted" by his overly demanding lover.

The thing is, with music like that, that they love, but want less of, I think bringing it in and out throughout the film draws even more attention to the music than having it gently set the mood. That's my opinion.

Most of the time the point when the music actually starts is the most crucial moment and has to be very very carefully chosen. That's why in a little short (it's only 12 min. long) I think it makes more sense to just create an atmosphere.

Well back to the scissors and mute tool I guess...

Thanks and best
Hans


----------



## wonshu (Jul 3, 2008)

Folman: of course... if I didn't have that attitude I wouldn't be getting any jobs done.

I just find it an interesting observation that it happens a lot of times. Maybe it is me... but then again, I don't want to start to tell myself: "my music sounds too good" because frankly, that would be the biggest lie in the universe and would make me the biggest douche in the universe... yes, bigger than John Edward.

I just want to hear other peoples experiences and approaches and for those I'm grateful!

Best
Hans


----------



## JohnG (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi Hans,

I guess I don't agree that you should be timid in voicing your opinion. I find that many times the directions I get are extremely cliched, hackneyed ideas. 

Producer: "How about a different theme for each character?" 

Me thinking: How about bloody "Peter and the Wolf?" It's just a completely old-fashioned approach that, except for comedies (where it's funny) has to be altered very significantly.

So what I do is say "yes." And then do something that kind of meets what they want but isn't so old-fashioned, maybe a "danger" theme or "bad guy" mood / instrumentation that recurs, by contrast with a tune. 

However, maybe you are having a hard time because you are writing music that is "too complete," that doesn't leave enough room for the other voice of dialogue or story? I am not attacking your music -- I haven't heard it -- but I think I make that error myself some and I used to make it much more often. Out of love of music or anxiety to write something "real" I have loaded my music too heavily at times with detail and countermelodies and intricacies that call perhaps too much attention to the music.

Often it's just the bare bones of the music that works with film.

So maybe I am just talking to myself but i am always startled by how "easy" some of the Big Guys' music seems for long stretches.


----------



## wonshu (Jul 3, 2008)

poseur @ Thu Jul 03 said:


> ach! i hope you knew i meant no offense.



Hey, I never take offense at stuff like that... I was making a joke as well...



And of course you have a point. And yes, I will take out every last note that the director doesn't want in there...

I just don't know when the point comes where you would want to hold your ground because you know better.

A friend of mine who scored one of the biggest movies this year (... I won't tell...) had to fight the producers tooth and nail to not do what they thought was best because he knew, it just wouldn't work for a film. And if you knew the details you'd immediately slap your head asking yourself what the producers where thinking....

Best
Hans


----------



## poseur (Jul 4, 2008)

wonshu @ Thu Jul 03 said:


> A friend of mine who scored one of the biggest movies this year (... I won't tell...) had to fight the producers tooth and nail to not do what they thought was best because he knew, it just wouldn't work for a film. And if you knew the details you'd immediately slap your head asking yourself what the producers where thinking....


ha! i'm sorry to report that i understand, all too well.
oh, the stories i could tell!, re:
film-scoring experiences both "huge" & "miniscule".

d


----------



## Elfen (Jul 10, 2008)

I always find that there is a time like you said to make your point heard and there is always a time to re-evaluate your positions. 
I heard your cue, it's a great track but even if it's soft and minimalistic it carry a lot of weight. If the movie is not as deep as your track maybe it can steal the show. 

One of the hardest part is to re-evaluate. Even harder when your sure you're on the right track. 

On the flipside I will always remember the part of Hans Zimmer interview on Thin Red Line where he said that the director wanted an all fifths melody but Hans protested saying that it was too neutral. They had an ongoing argument about it and when Hans finally got to his keyboard he started banging thirds thirds thirds....

The director heard it, love it!


----------

