# Gambling on buying expensive libraries



## PlasticMoonRain (Dec 18, 2013)

After discussion about CineStrings, pluses and minuses (for me, quite disappointing), this brings up a good offshoot topic.

Do I have buyer's remorse for putting that money down for CineStrings? I certainly do, after spending the last few weeks trying to find something useful other than the crunchy shorts. Yes, I bought the hype, and yes, I did watch the demos. But now I am beginning to think that as helpful as demos are, they are done super-professionally, generally sounds great, so good that Daniel James can make a one hour 40-minute walk-through epic turning CineStrings straw into gold!

Now, I feel gun shy about jumping into buying some of these new expensive libraries. 

Orchestral Tools's forthcoming and very pricey Berlin Strings is offering $200 off for a very short time before the product comes out (nice offer, but no way) and $100 for the first 2 weeks it's out. Then you have to fork out well, well over $1000 for regular price.

I love Spitfire, but God knows what Mural will cost. But I am sure they'll have the usual two-week sale.

Sample libraries are fantastic yet expensive gambles because you can't get your money back if it's not up to snuff.

I have resolved that from now on, there is just no way I am running out to buy these libraries in the first few days. I am going to put off the decision until it's run through the paces by users here. I can't afford another expensive CineStrings debacle.

This is turning into my New Years resolution speech.


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## Jdiggity1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Good idea PMR.

Composers and arrangers have been producing very realistic and sonically satisfying mock-ups for years now. Why do we need these new expensive libraries to do what can already be done?
I understand the process might be quicker with new libraries and their scripting, but is the result really all that different?

Everyone is looking for the perfect sound 'out of the box'. 
Stay disciplined, stop looking for the easy way out, and master your tools.
Some general knowledge in production techniques such as EQ, Dynamics, and effects can go a long way.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 18, 2013)

What I learned is that no matter how many demos you listen to, or how many walkthroughs you watch, you won't know if the library works for you until you sit down and play it for your self.

We all compose different. We all like different tones. We all subconsciously have a key we mainly always improvise and write in, as well as our on way of phrasing lines.

I wish that each dev would give us one demo patch with full capabilities. If it's strings. Why not give us one section to demo with one mic or something. I don't know.

You can't every truly know if a lib is going to be just right I guess.

I have a couple of libs that are 100 percent perfect for me and those are rare, but you appreciate them more.


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## kaiyoti (Dec 18, 2013)

I don't think I've ever pre-ordered anything prior to launch date or "limited post launch time offers" with the exception for Battlefield series and Starcraft 2 since they have a track record of good games and most importantly I enjoy their games. Games cost around $60 bucks a piece at max so I can't imagine having buyer's remorse for multi hundred/thousand dollar libraries. As much as they can say "we care about you" offering small early bird discounts, at the end of the day, it's just business. They do what they need to do to generate revenue. I think it's easier to have the mentality that whoever is selling stuff to you isn't your friend, now that might not always be the case, but it certainly puts you in a more protective financial stance.


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## jleckie (Dec 18, 2013)

PlasticMoonRain @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> I have resolved that from now on, there is just no way I am running out to buy these libraries in the first few days. I am going to put off the decision until it's run through the paces by users here. I can't afford another expensive CineStrings debacle.
> 
> This is turning into my New Years resolution speech.



You are very wise and you will thank yourself again and again your very smart decision.


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## benmrx (Dec 18, 2013)

It can be tricky for sure. The cliche' of "the grass is always greener" definitely applies to sample libraries. When you hear a demo that's been put together by a composer/orchestrator/programmer that holds a skill set far beyond your own can almost act like sirens in the night singing to _you_ personally. 

That said, I'm just about done with my Adagietto Download... ~o)


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## playz123 (Dec 18, 2013)

I think many of us hit a library purchasing 'wall' from time to time, and start asking ourselves do we really need another string library and is this one a thousand dollars worth better than the last one, or how much percussion do I really need etc.? Point is, if one doesn't back off once in awhile and just learn to fully utilize what one has, one will surely go broke, and never have time to focus on using the libraries as opposed to just buying them. There's always something new just around the corner, it's hyped, people rush to buy it and two weeks later something else is the 'flavor of the month'. It gets even harder to resist when somebody who's opinion and reputation you trust raves about his/her recent purchase. Anyway, so sometimes it is wise to just take a step back, focus on one's real needs and consider if that money could also be better spent on other things. I've seldom regretted NOT buying a library, but I have regretted, more than a few times, buying them.


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 18, 2013)

PlasticMoonRain @ Thu Dec 19 said:


> I have resolved that from now on, there is just no way I am running out to buy these libraries in the first few days. I am going to put off the decision until it's run through the paces by users here..



That is a very good decision. And as Jay says, one you will certainly not regret. Luckily, there will always be a good number of brave souls who jump on the offers in the early days of a release and their feedback here at V.I. Control gives us still sitting at the fence a valuable insight from a user's perspective.

We also have to take into account though, that there will almost always be some things that needs a bit of ironing out in v1.0 of a sample library/VST. So if some problems reported are about script bugs or other programming issues, that may not be a major issue if the dev is known to respond to user feedback quickly and efficiently. But the sound is obviously what is most important about a sample library, and that is what it is. In that regard (in addition to the demos) I think that what the early buyers report is also very helpful, not least the demos often posted by users. Because as we know the dev's aren't always posting the demos each and one of us would like to hear first and foremost.

I'm quite certain there would be a lot more buyer's remorse around if forums such as this one weren't around to put the sample libraries under the microscope.. :mrgreen:


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## Pingu (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm afraid I'm a jumper. As a complete amateur I simply can't afford not to be. But I only jump with firms who have earned my trust in the past. Those who take the time to get things right first time, rather than rushing things out. 

And I still take the precaution of not installing stuff to my main machines for a few weeks, since there are bound to be patches almost immediately. So I keep the library on the laptop I use for downloading, until the gripes seem to have slowed to a trickle, then move it to my DAW.

I probably have bought a couple of lemons, but the money I've saved over years of pre-ordering has more than paid for them.


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## Daryl (Dec 19, 2013)

As has been mentioned above, all you can tell from demos is how someone else uses a library. You only really know how it works when you have your hands on it.

However, I do think that too many people jump on new products thinking that they are a quick fix, rather than looking at their own failings. The other thing to remember is that every sample library has a downside. There is no perfect solution, so whilst a new product may solve one problem, it almost certainly will cause others. Hence the disappointment that many users feel when they finally get their hands on a new sample library.

Obviously the hype from developers doesn't help, but it's like all advertising; don't believe a word of it, until you have proof. :wink: 

D


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## Justin Miller (Dec 19, 2013)

Is there a reason that all the developers aren't using the trysound site to let people demo their libraries? All plugins that I know of have demo periods, even DAWs


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## AC986 (Dec 19, 2013)

PlasticMoonRain @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> I love Spitfire, but God knows what Mural will cost. But I am sure they'll have the usual two-week sale.
> 
> Sample libraries are fantastic yet expensive gambles because you can't get your money back if it's not up to snuff.



You said it yourself. You have regretted buying a string library because it was not up to expectations. That in itself brings up a really crusty issue that never gets talked about.
And that is the all too common quote *"I'll wait until others have bought it and see what they think."*

When you look at that, that really says it all for me. What it means is when you boil it down is a lot of people are quite happy for others to do their cash first as guinea pigs for 'potential' buyers. :D But it also says they don't really trust developers.

But in my experience, a lot of the time that also backfires because it comes down to what other people like _may still not be what others want_.

The one time I gambled was with Spitfires Sable library because it sounded closest to what I'm used to live. Good gamble. Most of my gambles never pay off but that one did for me. But others may not agree.

Another issue are the demo videos. What you have to remember is most DAWs work through a midi keyboard. If you're into playing notes into the DAW through your midi keyboard, it's probably worth noting that a lot of the guys who do demos can't play a keyboard for jackshit. That's not a criticism but a lot of users are brilliant editors and not great players for numerous reasons such as keyboards are not their first instrument. .

All I would say for people like me that need to be careful with money is anything over and above $300 for any software that you can't really try out is a gamble.


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 19, 2013)

Greetings,

I often thought about that, and I am still astonished to be honest. I mean we live in a time where I can rent a video on iTunes, watch it, and if I do not buy it, after a certain amount of time, it is gone from my HD. Excellent! No lack of quality, other than perhaps blu ray standards, but HD and surround will be there.

Why should it not be possible to create a system where I can rent a full library for a small fee and a certain amount of time, sign a rental contract where I agree not to use the musical results of this rental in any commercial way etc.

So I download the full whack, I can use it in every daw and in every which way I like for the period of renting, and if I like it, press da button. I don't like the product, swuush, it's gone. 

What would I be willing to pay for a rental? Very little, because 1. it is my time that I allocate to testdrive a product and 2. It is a sales and marketing tool. Say for a rental period of a 4 days, I'd be willing to pay around 10 Euro for top of the range libs.

Welcome to the year 2014. Yes? No?

Best
Georg


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## blougui (Dec 19, 2013)

Buying on the hype, no time to play with your purchase before plunging for another one of the same categorie, bitter regrets cause the product doesn'nt live up to the hype, loyaulty/trust over the developpers... I feel like I'm reading BoardgameGeek forums 

About testing/trying out big libs before buying, well, dev have to pay for the servers and it's pricey, quite pricey and not to be compared to iTunes, major studios or whatever. And Trysound is'nt a very good idea since it's so sloooow it could give you a biaised idea about the lib being convenient or not.

I've scored a couple of documentaries for a french directorand it looks like this is it - last one was replaced by the work of a musical editor, so 15mn of hard work and themes thrown away - so all in all I'm an amateur. Though I dream from time to time to treat me with a huge set like Sable + Adagio + HZ, I'll keep it to my tools.

Being a pro is a complete different thing : you don't want to sound like the others - at least not exactly if you want to impress the client, the agent, whatever - and you'ld like to work quicker.


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## Arbee (Dec 19, 2013)

I tend to wait then search the web for the worst amateur demos I can find of a new product - gives me very useful insight and hasn't failed me yet :D 

.


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## star.keys (Dec 19, 2013)

Arbee @ Thu Dec 19 said:


> I tend to wait then search the web for the worst amateur demos I can find of a new product - gives me very useful insight and hasn't failed me yet :D
> 
> .



+1
Good advice... I have started practicing this recently and have since then it has saved me a lot of money

Also, I'd be careful with commercially influenced walkthroughs which can be misleading (either way)

This CS episode is a bit unfortunate. I have high respect for this company and have bought 8 of their products so far, lucky to save on CS. They seem to employ a very open and transparent approach in selling (have a listen their patch by patch video walkthroughs). Trust they will fix issues with CS in a later revision, Cinesamples have good history.

P.S. I am not a shareholder of Cinesamples 8)


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## AC986 (Dec 19, 2013)

A lot of sample libraries aren't that playable either.


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## Daniel James (Dec 19, 2013)

PlasticMoonRain @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> I am beginning to think that as helpful as demos are, they are done super-professionally, generally sounds great, so good that Daniel James can make a one hour 40-minute walk-through epic turning CineStrings straw into gold!



..Thankyou? haha

-DJ


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 19, 2013)

Justin Miller @ Thu Dec 19 said:


> Is there a reason that all the developers aren't using the trysound site to let people demo their libraries?



Yes - there are two issues as I understand it. First is that it needs to be sold through Best Service, and second they inexplicably don't support Kontakt 5. Shame, because it's far and away the most reliable way of testing libraries.

I share your thoughts on CineStrings, Arbee. I still really haven't had a chance to isolate my issues, but they do have a good track record of sorting things out in time. For some reason, it seems spectacularly resource-heavy and I'm not exactly sure why, but hopefully they'll get to the bottom of it in time.


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## G.E. (Dec 19, 2013)

Even until this day I have buyer's remorse for getting LASS haha.I know a lot of people swear by it but I just don't like their tone even when I drown them in reverb.

Thankfully now I happen to know someone who can let me come over and try out lots of libraries.Just last week I had the chance and pleasure to try out Adagio violins for about an hour and I was really impressed.The Adagio bundle will definitely be my next purchase.


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## Polarity (Dec 19, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu 19 Dec said:


> So I download the full whack, I can use it in every daw and in every which way I like for the period of renting, and if I like it, press da button. I don't like the product, swuush, it's gone.



I remember that the East West Play libraries had this kind of time period system years ago.
when I purchased MOR1 and QLSO Gold I received also demo dvds of other libraries that were fully working for a couple of days...
but it was all bond to iLok key of course and a temporary licence.
I don't know if they still do this.
With Kontakt I think it would be difficult to do this till Native Instruments doesn't bond to a protection key system.

Actually also ViennaPRO had it.
Infact I had the chance to try it and decide if it was working for me or not before buy it.
But again a software bond to a key... Steinberg key this time.


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 19, 2013)

I really Like what PianoTeck did where you could download an octave of "White keys" before buying. This way you can hear and "feel" how the patch responds. 

Video Demos do not do this and TrySound's latency will not allow you to do this.

This really should be figured out, it's just way too much money to risk with the prices of these libraries.

When I tell lay business people about the fact that in our industry you could purchase a product without actually being able to use it it/try it that costs $500-$1000 and not be able to return it if it does not work for you.. well they think it's absolutely insane and I have to manually push their mouth closed.

What perturbs me even more is when a company releases a library "that you can't return" and holds your money while they take months to fix it with updates.... Only musicians would be accepting of this.


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## Polarity (Dec 19, 2013)

about CineStrings:
this time I'm one of the guinea pigs myself.

well, I watched a lot the demos by Cinesamples and to me Michael Patty seems one that knows how to play keyboards... and can do it much better than me.

I believe/suspect that some issues were not known even by themselves, because for what I got (if I understood well from their posts here) they developed CineStrings inside Kontakt 5.2 and demoed...
only when they got CS encoded back from NI they discovered it was done with Kontakt 5.3
So NI forced them to use the latest Kontakt version that seems giving a few problems to various users.
Am I wrong?
Indeed, despite CS already replied to me about K5.3 on Windows, I suspect that some issues are due to this change... probably some script has to be fixed or adjusted...
maybe not by CS but by NI.

[EDIT] Ok, I'm not happy by CineStrings 1.0 about certain aspects/issues, but counting on the great work and suppor they had till now, I'm faithful that they will find solutions or workaround for fixing those issues...

For the sound of CineStrings... well I believe it's a matter of tastes, I like it.
well "de gustibus"... don't know what else to say.
[END OF EDIT]

and no, I'm not on payroll of any developer.


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## Vlzmusic (Dec 19, 2013)

But still - what should be considered "expensive" - 1000$ today, or the 2000$-3000$ orchestral libraries decade ago ? o-[][]-o


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 19, 2013)

adriancook @ Thu Dec 19 said:


> PlasticMoonRain @ Wed Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I love Spitfire, but God knows what Mural will cost. But I am sure they'll have the usual two-week sale. Sample libraries are fantastic yet expensive gambles because you can't get your money back if it's not up to snuff.
> ...



Well firstly I don't see why sitting on the fence for a few days would be a bad thing, and I'm sure you don't think it is. It is highly unrealistic, but say 90% of the buyers bought a sample library the same day it was released. Then I'd I think many more users would have a bad case of byer's remorse, because we all have different expectations and needs. This is especially true for sample libraries above the $2-300 mark, basically because it's a significant investment. 

Secondly, I wouldn't say putting a buy on hold for one potential (without the " ") buyer makes his/her early adopter collegue a "guinea pig". And having doubts about one particular product from a developer doesn't automatically mean you don't have a general trust in the developer. It's only natural that some sample libraries may not turn out as successful as the rest of company's lineup. That doesn't have to mean they're that bad either.

Sure, the developers need to earn their money. But In the long run they also benefit greatly from a lot of satisfied customers. Perhaps many of them took a while to get down from the fence, but now they're happily telling everyone about their good experiences with this and that library, just like most of the early adopters. And this in turn generates even more sales.

Lastly, I'd say the dev's demos (both "naked" and "dressed", and in different genres of music) is a big help, and the more the better! I'd like to mention 8Dio and Soundiron as a couple of great examples among many here. I think a healthy selection of varied(!) demos released in good time for the er.. release will always get many hesitators down from the fence! As well as those all-important YT videos. Spitfire's videos for example are excellent.

Ah and of course your videos, Daniel! For me personally they've been of an immense value in helping me to do a balanced buying decision. But it's not "just" that aspect I appreciate about your videos - for a happy amateur like me they're also a great learning experience. Looking forward to see more of your videos in 2014! 

o-[][]-o


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2013)

JE Martinsen @ Thu Dec 19 said:


> adriancook @ Thu Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > PlasticMoonRain @ Wed Dec 18 said:
> ...



It's a not bad thing. But how are you sitting on the fence? What exactly are you waiting for? Are you waiting for early adopters to make a comment? If their comment is negative, will you still go ahead and make your purchase?

People sit on the fence because it boils down to trust, one way or the other. There are all sorts of demos and videos to go by, and yet there is still this* 'anyone bought this library yet?"* . They don't trust what's in front of them and sometimes that's a good call and sometimes not.

It's going right now all over the place. I remember when *Sable* came up at a significantly lower introductory price and anyone getting that early really copped in a positive way.

The remorse that followed was *'gee I wish I'd gotten in when it was the introductory price, but I just couldn't make myself"*

So there are two types of remorse when it comes to buying.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 20, 2013)

Dan Mott @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> sing lines.
> 
> I wish that each dev would give us one demo patch with full capabilities. If it's strings. Why not give us one section to demo with one mic or something. I don't know.



IMHO because no matter how many disclaimers they posted, someone who doesn't really get how its supposed to work is going to try to achieve something with that patch and not like the result and knock it.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 20, 2013)

Vlzmusic @ Thu Dec 19 said:


> But still - what should be considered "expensive" - 1000$ today, or the 2000$-3000$ orchestral libraries decade ago ? o-[][]-o



You're STILL paying this! You're just not seeing it because you're buying by sections. 

>8o


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## Greg (Dec 20, 2013)

A lot of us, myself included, buy too many libraries hoping for a better sound. I think its important to keep yourself in check and REALLY dig in and learn the libraries you have. Learn how to make them sound great and most importantly, learn better orchestration.


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## germancomponist (Dec 20, 2013)

Greg @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> I think its important to keep yourself in check and REALLY dig in and learn the libraries you have. Learn how to make them sound great and most importantly, learn better orchestration.



This!


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## PlasticMoonRain (Dec 20, 2013)

As the person who started this thread, and having seen how this discussion has progressed well, I am a bit surprised at the almost total lack of conversation from CineSamples or other companies here. (yes, I did see you here, EW).

It would be productive to hear from them about suggestions and issues brought up here in this thread.


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## Daryl (Dec 20, 2013)

Greg @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> A lot of us, myself included, buy too many libraries hoping for a better sound. I think its important to keep yourself in check and REALLY dig in and learn the libraries you have. Learn how to make them sound great and most importantly, learn better orchestration.


I agree. There seems to be a pervading "if I only had the right tools, my music would be fantastic" attitude. The truth is that the main problem is more often the lack of sequencing skill and sometimes the lack of writing ability as well.

D


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2013)

Daryl @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> Greg @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of us, myself included, buy too many libraries hoping for a better sound. I think its important to keep yourself in check and REALLY dig in and learn the libraries you have. Learn how to make them sound great and most importantly, learn better orchestration.
> ...



This is part of the point. How is asking what people think after buying a library going to make any sense to someone who is going to be using something with an entirely differently technique. My sample user technique is basically crap and I've come to accept that, ergo asking what someone thinks, and I do, is a nonsense.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 20, 2013)

It really helps to live in an area where there are lots of others using this stuff to try out.


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> It really helps to live in an area where there are lots of others using this stuff to try out.



Well that counts out England.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 20, 2013)

adriancook @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > It really helps to live in an area where there are lots of others using this stuff to try out.
> ...



Even London? Liverpool? Manchester?


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> ...



Since when of any of those places ever been regarded as England? :mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 20, 2013)

Oh, so you are a country bumpkin? That explains a lot!


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## dpasdernick (Dec 20, 2013)

This thread really hits the spot with me. Why can't all companies throw their instruments up on Try Sound? I would save literally thousands of dollars. I too listen to every demo, go to You tube etc. There's nothing like playing the thing your self. 

Plus I wish all companies would allow you to resell. 

2 cents...


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## Mike Greene (Dec 20, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> Why can't all companies throw their instruments up on Try Sound? I would save literally thousands of dollars.


I think you answered your own question. :mrgreen:


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## germancomponist (Dec 20, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> dpasdernick @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Why can't all companies throw their instruments up on Try Sound? I would save literally thousands of dollars.
> ...



:-D


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 20, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> dpasdernick @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Why can't all companies throw their instruments up on Try Sound? I would save literally thousands of dollars.
> ...



AMEN!


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## tmm (Dec 20, 2013)

I'm with GR on this one... everyone else seems to be able to build mission impossible this-will-self-destruct functionality into demos... why not sample lib developers? After a couple super costly disappointments, I'm hesitant to buy any libraries over $100 now, even if I think they're probably going to be good. But, if I could try them, even for a day, I can guarantee you I'd make quite a few _more_ purchases (not _less_). Products that fall into the category of "wouldn't even consider at current prices without trying but would very likely buy if I could try" are Lumina, SD3, HZ01, Iceni, Sable, and CineWinds-Pro. It's worth noting that these are all from developers whose products I own or have tried already and like (except EW)... it's not about knowing whether or not they're capable of making something l like.


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## germancomponist (Dec 20, 2013)

It is similar to a marriage. Only after the wedding you learn your wife know right ... .

When buying a car you do a test drive.

:-D


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## Iostream (Dec 20, 2013)

This is why I don't do presales/intro offers anymore. I might pay more for the libraries that I do end up buying, but I figure I save a lot more in the long run from the libraries I would have bought and never used because they didn't meet my needs.


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## maest (Dec 20, 2013)

So the question here is why not have the ability to Demo libraries - I am really not sure how to respond here. The answer (for the mean time) is we will not be able to do that...

Here are my reasons (not Cinesamples'):

We tried this with CinePerc, by releasing a free patch so you could get a feel for how the library looked, felt, and sounded and got completely (and unfairly) blasted by the VI community - still a bit of a sour taste after that.

If we released a "Demo" of CineStrings this causes a LOT of issues. While maybe good for some to "demo" an "expensive" library, this opens up a lot of issues for us. 

1 - it opens the library for further exploitation and illegal license use - we actively take down pirate links and torrents, if we gave you all the sound links, well then you have the library, you just need to crack K5.

2 - there would be a massive burden on our VERY small support staff - questions about downloading, links to send, re-send, etc (BTW we are JUST 4 people over here working 50-60 hours a week)

3 - OUR COST... its a HUGE risk for us to make a massive library like CineStrings. It is advantageous for US to make it work well for YOU! 

You should be able to trust that we will update our libraries and make them better for you. THE BEST thing you ALL could do is give us feedback and bug reports through our Customer Support System, we actively collect those, analyze the bugs/feature requests and then address them when the update time comes. Be nice to Anne though when you submit. 

(Insider info here: Next up is VOXOS, so if you have bug issues please send them in - DO NOT POST THEM HERE!)

On a side note I am very, very sad that some of you are finding our library a "disappointment" it's very disheartening to read. All I can say is that I try, and will continue to try to make it better for you all. 

Wish you all the best and a happy holiday,

Sam Estes
Manager, Cinesamples


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## tmm (Dec 20, 2013)

I guess the question is, would the extra sales captured from allowing those who wouldn't buy without trying outweigh the additional support costs and higher likelihood of license exploitation. My uneducated guess is that it would, but that's solely based upon knowing that I'd be buying more if I could try more.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 20, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> This thread really hits the spot with me. Why can't all companies throw their instruments up on Try Sound?



I already answered this on p1, but to save clicking...



> there are two issues as I understand it. First is that it needs to be sold through Best Service, and second they inexplicably don't support Kontakt 5.



Sam, over Christmas I'm going to go through CineStrings properly and fill out a support ticket - I haven't done so yet because I don't feel I've had the chance to nail exactly where the problems are occurring. I know you folks will be improving this library over time - you always do, which was my single biggest reason for buying it in the first place 

I understand CS's reservations of VI-C over the free patch response here, and I totally agree (indeed, I left for a while over it).


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## Mike Greene (Dec 20, 2013)

maest @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> 2 - there would be a massive burden on our VERY small support staff - questions about downloading, links to send, re-send, etc


This is a bigger deal than people might think.

The cheaper a library is, the more likely someone is to have a tech support question. Someone buying a $1,000 string library understands Kontakt, understands how to load libraries, understands why a library does or doesn't show up in the library tab, etc. Speaking for my own company, with Realivox, I hardly ever get any tech questions. It's a moderately expensive library, so the buyers are tech savvy.

On the flip side, I got a rude awakening when I released RealiBanjo. I'd estimate 20% to 30% of the customers had some sort of tech issue. Really rudimentary stuff, but often so poorly explained that it takes time just to understand what they're trying to do. Like I said, it was a rude awakening.

So I'll bet that when Cinesamples released that free snare, they got a ton of very rudimentary questions. I have no inside information on their operation, but as an outsider, it's very telling that they tried that route once . . . and haven't done it again since.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to somehow try out a library before buying. But there are definitely some downsides from a developer's perspective.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 20, 2013)

First off I want to say that I do sympathise with Developers who are working very hard to make great libraries for us to compose with, and there are definately some stunning libraries out there which sound amazing.
However this thread for me only highlights even more strongly how important it is that Sample Library Companies DO NOT forbid second hand sales of their products and thus give them what I call Zero Resale Value!
If you spend several hundred or even a thousand or more on a product and then decide its not for you, then you need to be able to sell it second hand to recoup some of the cost in order to buy other libraries.
I know some developers refuse to see it that way but they are WRONG.
In my view we should never ever buy Zero Resale Value products and should spread the word about those that are to be avoided.
This will eventually force this policy to be changed.


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## germancomponist (Dec 20, 2013)

So true, Mike!!!


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 20, 2013)

maest @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> So the question here is why not have the ability to Demo libraries - I am really not sure how to respond here. The answer (for the mean time) is we will not be able to do that...
> 
> Here are my reasons (not Cinesamples'):
> 
> We tried this with CinePerc, by releasing a free patch so you could get a feel for how the library looked, felt, and sounded and got completely (and unfairly) blasted by the VI community - still a bit of a sour taste after that.



Hi Sam,
I'm one who bought Cineperc because of the demo snare you let us try out. After I could feel how I could play it and control it I was sold. To be honest I don't think I would have purchased it had you not offered the demo. Personally just because someone bad mouths the product on a Forum won't keep me from buying it...IF and this is a big if... I can download a small sample like your snare and try it FOR MYSELF. 

IF the product is good... you have nothing to worry about. I worked in the MI Business for years and people will always bad mouth a product but when they walked in the store and played the keyboard with the killer sounds it did not matter to the customer. That's what sample developers are not giving us a way to do. And now that you are selling sound libraries that rivals the price of synth workstations the developers that can offer a demo will win in my humble opinion. 

The things I look for to define "good in a sound":
1. The sound sounds great
2. The sound is very playable and not laggy (please don't make me bring up legato, it also responds with a bit of an organic feel to it like a real instrument with a lot of touch.
3. The sound does not bring my system to it's knees in real world applications.
4. The sound is expressive 

Put out an octave or 2 octaves only of a couple of sounds from your libraries and meet that list above and I'll buy every time! Ask me to go on a demo or peoples opinions and my wallet is getting much tighter these days because of some bad , costly experiences in the past trying to purchase this way.


Wish you the best Sam, you do great work and have been very helpful!!
Dave


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 20, 2013)

As far as demos go, the best option for libraries without TrySound or free patches or similar options would be to make friends with a local composer who owns it, right?

For those who live near big cities, it seems almost certain there'd be someone out there who has the library and could entertain the odd visit on a quiet afternoon to talk shop and let another composer see what the fuss is all about with a new library.

Just thinking out loud, but if developers had a network of knowledgeable "authorized tryout partners" they could refer people to, at least in major cities, it seems like a possible way to deal with folks who aren't convinced by the video/audio material.

On the other hand, maybe it's a terrible idea and I just need more sleep :D

Either way, for the record, I'm happy to help my Toronto buddies with this kind of thing. I know it's been helpful for me, at least as far as hardware is concerned. Didn't think I'd want/need a Maschine until I tried a colleague's...now I own two.


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## Gabriel2013 (Dec 20, 2013)

I remember when I started doing mockups I only have to my disposal "peter siedlaczek" and "Miroslav Vitous" (cd versions not the revamp software) on Akai and Emu Samplers.
These days there is so many that you can lose track of the principal fact we all are here: Composing.

Obviously if you purchase a library by instinct it´s always a gamble, but if you wait a bit a nice bloke like Daniel James will do a review to help some VI-Control users.
But be aware, is not the size that maters but what you do with it. :D 

I mean, do I really need: LASS, HS, Adagio, VSL Strings, OT Strings, Cinestrings, ......... Spitfire............. (and I am still at the String Family)? NO
I have some of the above, by collecting at a average of 2 years per library, but the rate this new libraries are coming out is really insane.
To masters all of this libraries will takes ages, so choose a library and try to get the must out of it is the best advice I can give (IMHO).


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## Kralc (Dec 20, 2013)

Mathazzar @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> Just thinking out loud, but if developers had a network of knowledgeable "authorized tryout partners" they could refer people to, at least in major cities, it seems like a possible way to deal with folks who aren't convinced by the video/audio material.
> 
> On the other hand, maybe it's a terrible idea and I just need more sleep :D



Hell yeah, this is an awesome idea!

If there's anyone on the Gold Coast who wants to hang out and let me play with all their stuff, just sayin'...


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## 5Lives (Dec 20, 2013)

Personally, I love video walkthroughs like Daniel James does (and to a lesser extent Spitfire and Cinesamples since those are just going through the patches).

But I also think many people (myself included) want the new shiny object, regardless if we will actually make use of it. I have done this with plenty of software and hardware synths, sample libraries, and programs unfortunately. I use maybe 50% of what I have.


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## José Herring (Dec 20, 2013)

I think for consumers like us it's important to have the right attitude. Never pine after another sample library. It's our hard earned money that they are after, make them earn it. 

I just see too many composers throwing money away like they have it, on yet, just another sample library.

Rather, ask youself honestly, "can this library do something that I can't already do with what I have?". Does it offer a better way of working, or articulations that I don't have.... ect, if the answer is anything less than yes then don't spend the money.

And I always keep in mind that some of the best mockups I've heard were done with libraries that are going on 10 or 15 years old, no legato. So, there's no need to rush out and get the latest greatest.


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## KingIdiot (Dec 20, 2013)

josejherring @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> I think for consumers like us it's important to have the right attitude. Never pine after another sample library. It's our hard earned money that they are after, make them earn it.
> 
> I just see too many composers throwing money away like they have it, on yet, just another sample library.
> 
> ...



o-[][]-o


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## jleckie (Dec 20, 2013)

This



josejherring @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> And I always keep in mind that some of the best mockups I've heard were done with libraries that are going on 10 or 15 years old, no legato. So, there's no need to rush out and get the latest greatest.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 21, 2013)

> Just thinking out loud, but if developers had a network of knowledgeable "authorized tryout partners" they could refer people to, at least in major cities, it seems like a possible way to deal with folks who aren't convinced by the video/audio material.



I've done this Marius (I hope I spelled your name right), and this is a very good idea. But to be fair, that demo person needs to be a subdealer. I can't begin to estimate the number of hours I spent on the phone with potential customers on two libraries, but it's in the hundreds of hours for each library. 

What can end up happening if you don't set boundaries early, is that you end up doing more tech work then you expected. If you value your time at $50 per hour, every ten hours is $500 in value of your time. In 20 hours, you've earned most of the major libs on the market! :shock: 

The more win/win solution is for more devs to read Malcolm Gladwell's The Tipping Point and find a group of composers, who, if they like the library, will simply talk about it, post about their experiences with the product, and maybe post a demo here and there where the library was used.

Nonetheless, I think your idea is dead-on. Excellent insight!

But read The Tipping Point! It will help your career in other ways!


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## eric aron (Dec 21, 2013)

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> Mike Greene @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > dpasdernick @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> ...



:lol: so true

another possibility could be to have an agreed set of carefully choosen musics, that every developer would use for his products demos. so for example we take 10 representative orchestral musics from classical and film, and every dev use the same musics for his product demos. quite easy then to make a decision.

this would be a big save of time and money


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## eric aron (Dec 21, 2013)

jleckie @ Fri Dec 20 said:


> This
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i agree in one way, here i used for many years Sonic Implants collection and EWQLSO with great results. 

but we can't compare anymore these libs with the now big progress made, so the level of the best mockups will also grow


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## XcesSound (Dec 21, 2013)

eric aron @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Greene @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> ...



Interesting. However not too realist. Every library has its own characters, merits and hopefully fill a gap in the market. Though sometimes I do feel disappointed with a particular purchase, I will mostly likely be able to find something that works great and better than what I have, characters that put me off initially maybe the gem in certain situations. Also if we have set pieces, we would be limiting the depth of developments from the devrlopers. Would I use Struck Piano to mock up some Rachmaninoff? No, but uses frequently for scoring.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm getting annoyed that more libraries are becoming loops players. 30mb of the sampled instrument, 2GB of loops.


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 21, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> I've done this Marius (I hope I spelled your name right), and this is a very good idea. But to be fair, that demo person needs to be a subdealer. I can't begin to estimate the number of hours I spent on the phone with potential customers on two libraries, but it's in the hundreds of hours for each library.
> 
> What can end up happening if you don't set boundaries early, is that you end up doing more tech work then you expected. If you value your time at $50 per hour, every ten hours is $500 in value of your time. In 20 hours, you've earned most of the major libs on the market! :shock:
> 
> ...


Thanks, Peter!

You're right, of course, and having to figure out those kinds of logistical issues is probably why this hasn't taken off. I am certainly not the first to think of the possibility, after all.

Right there with you as far as the Tipping Point principles (though the book itself suffers from the usual pop-sci foibles) and I know for a fact that this kind of thing can be influential, but it takes time to accomplish as a developer would have to discover—_for each community_—whose opinion is respected enough that it becomes important for them to have a copy of the new product.

Just in the case of VI-C, those of us who've been around for a while will know that whenever Piet has some thoughts about a library, they're worth hearing (I think it's safe to say), but he's not a super-star member that posts extensively so it would be very easy for his influence to be entirely missed by someone new to the community. Makes it hard to leverage.

And there's the possibility that they'll refuse, or be too busy. You can't expect people to be shills, as that's just disrespectful to everyone involved.

Anyway, some great food for thought in this thread.


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## Jordan Gagne (Dec 21, 2013)

The problem is that unfortunately forums like VI-control, where the community is made of both developers and users, are not a very good resource for judging the quality of a library leading up to its release. The comments are almost always universally positive for three reasons:

1) Library users often have personal relationships with developers
2) Saying something negative about a library risks offending developers who are often peers in the industry, and portrays yourself negatively
3) Going against the popular opinion can also paint yourself in a negative light (especially when, like me, your real name is clearly visible on each post).

If you look back at the Cinestrings thread, there were maybe one or two posts in that gigantic thread expressing doubt or reservation about the sound of library. I was one of those posters but even then it was not in my best interests to diverge from the common opinion and say that it wasn't sounding good to me, for the reasons stated in the bullet points above.

Even now I feel guilty about echoing my first impressions of the library here (that they have a pad-like sound and that the transitions in what I've heard sound artificial) because Sam has posted a very mature response in this thread. I've had the misfortune of buying into the hype on a different library last year due to the exact same thing (everyone commenting on how great it appeared to be, despite my having reservations of the tone that I heard in demos -- which is my fault), so I've decided to post when I feel like something isn't quite up to snuff, even though I risk looking like an asshole.

Essentially any negative comments toward a new release have the possibility of pulling away sales from developers, and if you know those developers personally you are torn between advising a fellow composer to save his money and not wanting the developer to lose money in turn.


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 21, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> I'm getting annoyed that more libraries are becoming loops players. 30mb of the sampled instrument, 2GB of loops.



+1! :roll:


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 21, 2013)

_"3) Going against the popular opinion can also paint yourself in a negative light" 
_
What is this, High School? Are people here running for "Most Popular".

We like what we like, we do not what we do not, and nobody should be "popular"or "unpopular" for that.


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## Jordan Gagne (Dec 21, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> _"3) Going against the popular opinion can also paint yourself in a negative light"
> _
> What is this, High School? Are people here running for "Most Popular".
> 
> We like what we like, we do not what we do not, and nobody should be "popular"or "unpopular" for that.




You're skewing my words, I'm referring to "popular opinion", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum, not personal popularity.

In any case, it's not high school, but when I post about the many headaches I've experienced dealing with Play, it's likely that on some subconscious level it colours your opinion of me (and believe me, if I fully shared my thoughts on EW and Play, it definitely would). You're the perfect example of what I was talking about: a composer with close ties to a developer. Obviously you're going to stick up for East West and tout your libraries in threads where people are asking what strings they should by or what starter orchestral library they should look in to. There are a lot of personal and professional interests at play when discussing sample libraries in this forum and for that reason it's not really the best metric for gauging the quality of a new release.


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## clonewar (Dec 21, 2013)

eric aron @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> another possibility could be to have an agreed set of carefully choosen musics, that every developer would use for his products demos. so for example we take 10 representative orchestral musics from classical and film, and every dev use the same musics for his product demos. quite easy then to make a decision.
> 
> this would be a big save of time and money



The problem with this idea is that if it became some kind of standard then some (maybe all) developers would just make sure to record articulations (or even phrases) to specifically address the chosen pieces of music. So really the only thing it would help you be sure of is that you'd be able to successfully mock up those 10 representative pieces of music. 

I've had situations in the past where I listened to a library demo that had a great sounding line or phrase and it turned out that that particular phrase was actually pre-recorded and triggered by one key, obviously to be able to make that demo. I'd hate to see that type of action encouraged.


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## germancomponist (Dec 21, 2013)

Jordan Gagne @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> 3) Going against the popular opinion can also paint yourself in a negative light (especially when, like me, your real name is clearly visible on each post). ...
> 
> ..., so I've decided to post when I feel like something isn't quite up to snuff, even though I risk looking like an asshole.



You seem to describe me.... .


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## rgames (Dec 21, 2013)

I buy a camera every ten years or so. Every one I've ever bought has had problems. I also buy a new clarinet every ten years or so. Every one of those has also had problems. I also buy a car every ten years or so. Every one of those has had issues as well.

All of those items are expensive and problematic but I still find a way to take pictures and play the clarinet and drive around.

The truth is that walk-throughs don't really offer anything useful and trial periods have only marginal utility - you need to get the product and try it within your workflow for a long period of time before you really know what you can and can't do with it. So yes, it's a gamble. But the developers who consistently produce crap will, in theory, be weeded out by the market's refusal to continue to buy their products.

Also, I don't get the "product unboxing" video phenomenon. If you want to watch videos about music-making, watch someone show you how to improve your technique or do more with what you already have. There's too much focus on consumerism and buying more when most folks have plenty already at their disposal, if they would just take the time to figure out how to use it.

You can't buy creativity.

rgames


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## germancomponist (Dec 21, 2013)

rgames @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> Also, I don't get the "product unboxing" video phenomenon. If you want to watch videos about music-making, watch someone show you how to improve your technique or do more with what you already have. There's too much focus on consumerism and buying more when most folks have plenty already at their disposal, if they would just take the time to figure out how to use it.
> 
> You can't buy creativity.
> 
> rgames



+100

What I always say: Learn to use your tools, learn to programm your synthesizer, learn to programm your reverb e.t.c. and experiment and experiment... .


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 21, 2013)

Jordan Gagne @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 21 said:
> 
> 
> > _"3) Going against the popular opinion can also paint yourself in a negative light"
> ...



It doesn't matter what I think of your opinions, I am not your potential employer.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 21, 2013)

As someone who sits on both sides of the fence (I really ought to make some sort of cat flap, the splinters are becoming annoying...) this is an interesting thread.

On the one hand there sems to be a feeling that developers haven't considered these consumer-friendly options, most of which sound to me (with my developer head on) as very time and labour heavy for what I would imagine would be a small increase in sales.

In my experience you get quite a lot of feedback along the lines of "I'd buy more of your stuff if you did X, Y and Z" and quite frankly, when you do try them out, it just doesn't happen.

Also, as far as the providing a free demo thing, I can concur with what's been said earlier. I get many more email enquiries about how thngs work from people downloading free patches etc. than those who buy the full product. I can only imagine what it would be like for companies with much more customers than me!

As a composer, I can number the libraries I've bought and regretted on one hand. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe I've been judicious in my purchases. Maybe I don't take it so personally.

I pre-order from very few developers, often buy in sales and regularly ask other composers who own software/samples what they think of them. I have a few friends whose opinion I trust wholeheartedly when it comes to these things. I even know that when they like something I probably won't, because of why thye like it!

I think most developers are working incredibly hard to bring us astonishing products that five years ago would have seemd like some sort of alchemy. Are people worried about not keeping up with the Joneses? Or is there a level of entitlement creeping in - partly because things have come so far, so quickly? I don't know. But prices used to be much higher and quality used to be much lower in recent memory. 

Whaddya men you can't compose a filmscore on a psaltery and a Crumar Bit One?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 21, 2013)

And btw, if I say I like aa library, EW or not, I like it. You will notice Ido not tout every ingleEW library. I actually got a lovely PM from a rival developer thanking me for always trying to keep the facts straight.


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## germancomponist (Dec 21, 2013)

What I like so much is when it comes to synths. For example U-He and many many others, you can download a demo version what works 100%, but with time limits or a noice what comes from time to time. Perfect!

But sure you can't do this with a sample lib. Kirk Hunter did something in the past and so far as I remember it was cracked only one day later or so ... .


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## Jordan Gagne (Dec 21, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> Jordan Gagne @ Sat Dec 21 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 21 said:
> ...



Which is why I'm not afraid to post about how horrible my experiences with Play have been. In any case that's an oversimplification, it's not just about potential employers or potential work. Sometimes you just want to be nice for, you know, the sake of it?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 21, 2013)

Then Jordan, it's simple. Do as I do: talk about which libraries you like, not what you don't like. You can count on one hand the libraries I have criticize herein over 5 years.

But admit it not, there is a strong pressure here to like what most people here say they like.


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## Jordan Gagne (Dec 21, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> Then Jordan, it's simple. Do as I do: talk about which libraries you like, not what you don't like. You can count on one hand the libraries I have criticize herein over 5 years.
> 
> But admit it not, there is a strong pressure here to like what most people here say they like.



That's exactly what I was saying! The nature of this board means that positive comments are "easier" than critical ones. That's why you have this feedback loop of praise and admiration for virtually EVERY new library comes out. That's what happened with Cinestrings, and that's part of the reason that the OP's expectations were not met by his purchase. That's all I'm saying.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 21, 2013)

I don't agree. I have no idea whether CineStrings deserves or does not deserve its praise OR its criticism, but they are well liked as a company here and therefore are given the benefit of the doubt by the "me too" mentality here.

Which is fine with me.


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## germancomponist (Dec 21, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> Then Jordan, it's simple. Do as I do: talk about which libraries you like, not what you don't like. You can count on one hand the libraries I have criticize herein over 5 years.
> 
> But admit it not, there is a strong pressure here to like what most people here say they like.



:-D


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 21, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> I don't agree. I have no idea whether CineStrings deserves or does not deserve its praise OR its criticism, but they are well liked as a company here and therefore are given the benefit of the doubt by the "me too" mentality here.
> 
> Which is fine with me.



Well that's not exactly thinly veiled, is it?

There have been a lot of good posts here. I've very very rarely regretted NOT buying an apparent bargain, especially a pre-sale one (I don't _always_ live by this, mind, occasionally I'm over-impulsive still). Really the best policy is to take your time, get a lot of wide-ranging feedback, watch the walkthroughs very carefully. Think how its being used, and compare with how you use it. Is it just showing ONLY good stuff? Research the company's reputation if you're a new customer - ask people you trust privately as well as publicly. Beware the following phrase - "no brainer". You may lose a couple of hundred bucks here and there on a genuine good deal, but will save a whole lot more by not buying what you don't really need - or even have time to learn how to use.

But most of all - try to turn the tables and think not so much about what is dangled in front of you, but where you have a specific need for something missing in your current arsenal (which you will have used in anger for a long period) and then specifically look for something that would fit that need. I recently bought Nexus2 that came very much from that place - I knew exactly what I was looking for, and Nexus2 fit the bill. I did try their 16 hour demo, but I was sold when I played one note to be honest, and its been one of my best purchases this year.

(apologies if most of this egg-sucking post is just stating the blindingly obvious, I'm preaching to myself mainly)


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 21, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> But most of all - try to turn the tables and think not so much about what is dangled in front of you, but where you have a specific need for something missing in your current arsenal (which you will have used in anger for a long period) and then specifically look for something that would fit that need. )



Agreed.


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## korgscrew (Dec 21, 2013)

Whats wrong with the Route that Spitfire took? 

In the case of sable - 4 Patches. limited Range Legato.

No need to release a the whole library. Just a couple of patches, with limited range that show the library off!

People like me are suckers for Playable Demos. Just because I want what I cant have! If the range goes to a G in the demo, i want an A GOD DAMN IT!!

I Bought Symphobia off the back of a 15 min demo on try sound!

I know the Devs are saying, its dangerous, out baby could get copied and distributed. I agree.

But, how about the people spending hard earned cash? A chap who had to work countless overtime so he could save up for said sample library (im not referring to me by the way). Only to buy it and it not being to his liking? No Refunds / Exchange etc isnt going to help his problem. A couple of demo patches could. Playing with the library in your own hand beats 1000 Demos and video walk throughs.

I personally would like to see mini demo patches from big sample libraries in the future. It can only do good. It cant do any harm. There are loads of libraries I havent bought because I havent been sure its what I need for my template. If there was a Demo, ill be 10 times more sure than I was before, hell I might even buy it!


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 21, 2013)

I agree, do it like Spitfire/Sable and PianoTek did it. A couple of patches limited range. Really the best solution for all parties IMHO. 

Not sure why companies don't do this other than the tech support concern but I'm not completely sold on that argument from a guy who worked 20 years for the major synth companies providing tech support. And guess what the support side for these big companies is really small too...trust me no call center there, you would be suprised.

I guess they don't have to if musicians are willing to buy the stuff unplayed and untested on their system and willing to risk their hard owned cash since there is a no refund policy because it's software.

Dave


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## dpasdernick (Dec 21, 2013)

The hard part about buying software is the no guarantee you will get an upgrade and you can't really find out if the instrument will sit well in your workflow without actually playing it. Software companies are lucky in that they don't have to produce a rock solid, complete product before they ship. Before any one starts the flaming think about it. If you bought a hardware synth that had out of tune samples or a car that has a steering problem a recall costs the developer of the product tons of money to make it right. With software you just keep sampling and coding and can add incremental improvements with virtually no cost for the redistribution. A small software company that needs to pay the bills will often release their wares knowing that it isn't 100% tested or that it even has some flaws. Spending more months waiting to perfect it may prevent them from paying the bills and they know they can always "fix it in the mix" Plus...if no one complains on a forum like this, they won't fix it and start working on their next release. Free upgrades don't make a company any money.

I love this forum but am amazed at some of the, forgive me, fanboys that use phrases like "no brainer" when company XYZ hints at a new library that is 6 months away. The hype that happens here is often bigger than the product itself. While I have favorite developers, I only look at the end product when buying. There's no guarantee that Eric will continue to develop Spectrasonics products. He may win the lottery and say, "to heck with this". When you buy a Honda Accord you're not relying on 1-4 guys to keep it in parts, etc. This is a niche market we play in. 

I don't need to be friends with the developers here. I need them to offer me a great product at a fair price and then I will part with my hard earned money. I also have to be careful considering purchases that are not available for Demo (or on try-sounds) and products that don't allow resale. Just remember you are in control as the customer and if you're like me I bet you don't need another string library but perhaps just some more time to learn the tools you have now.


Flame on


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## germancomponist (Dec 21, 2013)

As a side note: We Europeans may at any time a software return if it does not work. No matter what Eula have written the producers. European law!


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## Arbee (Dec 21, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> Flame on


No flaming from me, your post makes perfect sense on all points from where I sit.

Now that the bar on most instrument group libraries is fairly high across the board, no latest and greatest is going to make you compose better music. The only risk that concerns me by focusing solely on being better with what I already have, is missing something that actually is a game changer, but that is indeed very rare despite the hype.


.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 21, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> As a side note: We Europeans may at any time a software return if it does not work. No matter what Eula have written the producers. European law!



Gunther,

Can you elaborate or define "does not work"? Can you return a sample library to a developer if some of the samples are out of tune? Is that an example of 'does not work"?

All the very best,

Darren


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## kb123 (Dec 21, 2013)

It has been explained to Gunther in great detail before why those particular laws don't apply to sample libraries, and he even acknowledged that he understood it, so i am baffled why he is again saying this


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## MDesigner (Dec 21, 2013)

Earlier on, a point was made that people ought to dig in their current/older libraries to see what they can do before buying new ones. This is a great idea sometimes, but part of the attraction of newer libraries is that these are not only improving sonic quality but also workflow. Many composers don't have time to wrestle MIDI events to make older libraries sound good. Newer libraries make it easier to just load it "out of the box" and get stuff done more quickly AND with a convincing level of realism. Best of both worlds!


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 21, 2013)

Speaking of sample library trials and demos, Kirk Hunter is offering a free trial of his new Spotlight Solo Strings. I have some older KH library demos and they're really quite extensive so you could get a good impression of the overall sound and feel.

http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/spotlight.html

Here's a video presentation :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scd7BZiEyUQ&hd=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scd7BZiEyUQ&amp;hd=1)


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## Ben H (Dec 21, 2013)

EDIT


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## eric aron (Dec 21, 2013)

XcesSound @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> eric aron @ Sat Dec 21 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Fri Dec 20 said:
> ...



Then the question is why you are disappointed?The answer is you didn't properly evaluated the product ( I suppose that you were knowing precisely your needs before)

When I buy a camera, or a car, or a computer, I am very satisfied by the product, because I did objective comparative tests before, and purchased the best one for my needs. Why shouldn't it be the same here?

So I don't think this idea of comparative testing as being unrealistic. Symphonic orchestra is the basic tool of every composer, and thus can be submitted to comparative tests, with standard procedures. 

As for side libraries like struck piano, we don't need such, the sound being more particular, simple, and identifiable as for it in demo material.

A Prokofiev symphony will sound beautiful, whatever orchestra or conductor it was interpreted by. 

If you have such quality tools, you can write in every style.

The accumulation of more and more libraries in one's set is leading to the same kind of result as a patchwork without consistence and musical coherence, as could be an orchestral recording with 60 mics instead of a simple config. And more choice reduces creativity, also because you have to turn into some monster librarian, knowing perfectly the 12863 patches you have.

Another question is what developers really want to develop? What is the main purpose behind? To serve what?


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 22, 2013)

When I was in L.A., as I said earlier, I did rep several libs. One of them was VSL with their First Edition and later their Pro Edition. The way I handled it was very simple. Composers came to my home. I sat at the computer calling up whatever programs they wanted to hear, and they sat at my keyboard playing - as long as they wanted.

Local - relied on coming to my place to hear for themselves. 
Outside of L.A. and near no dealer - relied mostly on the demos to make their decision.

And this is where we are. I think it's fair to say that it's a "wee drive" for most to Los Angeles, London or Berlin to demo a library hands-on. 

Since we're buying from afar, we have no choice but to rely on demos and walk thrus to make a decision. And not many can get to NAMM or Frankfurt to get a hands-on demo. 

There's also a shortage of composers around who can take the time to learn a library costing under $1000 and do several demos for it. 

In line with the original post, some devs would be wise to set up relationships with composers willing to rep the line or the program locally, and to keep things fair, if a sale is made, give the composer a commission of at least 20% to make it worth his or her time. 

Since most devs are selling direct with no revenue sharing being given to dealers or distibutors or both, with a little financial planning, the 20% commission should be attainable.

The deal with Try-Sound, as I understand it, is that you have to be distributed by Best Service to be part of it.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Dec 22, 2013)

There are several problems when it comes to buying new libraries. 

Firstly, there are a lot more of them now than there have been in the past. And new ones are always coming along. 

This has caused a sort of rivalry with some of the developers - mostly in a good way. 

While I think its great that developers spend so much on getting through to us through videos, trailers and up-to-date information.

Sometimes, it does feel like too much time is being spent on marketing and saying that a certain library is the first of its kind or that they are doing something completely different, only to find out later that there is very little innovation compared to the other guys.

I have been disappointed recently with some purchases. But, that is not a huge problem as the samples are quite cheap anyway. I live in Mumbai and its difficult to check something really hands on. But Mumbai is India's LA so I do find some friends who own it and talk to them about it.

But I do feel sometimes, things are misleading and sometimes an announcement will catch too much fire and people will start going crazy about it. It does build a huge hype and then one can be met with certain disappointment. I guess, it always helps to be judicious before buying anything. Not only samples. 

Contrary to a lot of thoughts on this very thread, I do not find most of the demos that convincing or great. They are mostly epic or too far away from what samples can do. I am not going to spend $2000 on a library to do chords. I have enough samples that do that kind of stuff well. 

Some of the developers are in fact trying to get us to see what their libraries are all about as much as possible. They are also tied down with EULA obligations and the wider industry practices. 

I do appreciate that. 

On the whole, I like what VSL does and has always stuck to it. They do not talk about any products that are not very close to release and when they do release, they mostly already have demos available and they do not block anyone by announcements first and then spend another 10 months finishing the library. 

Also, once VSL releases something - it just works! (so far so good!)

I bought Vienna Instruments 7 years ago and there has been no problems with samples or tuning etc. They only improved the software (in a big way) over the years. I have never had an update for the samples and they have not had to go and re-record anything.

It just works! I like this approach and I think they probably spend less time talking about their library and more time building it. 

The quality is simply unmatched IMHO. They do not release anything that needs a X update in 3 months or that any patch is unusable. 

For me VSL is a benchmark in sample quality and business practices.

What their samples can do and cannot for different users is a completely different topic. I have some other libraries and they are great too for what they can do.

Not everything from VSL is great but their quality and consistency both in samples and business is supreme. 

BUT - Even so, I will not just buy a VSL library without being cautious. I will listen to demos, watch the videos, talk to friends.

I dont think I have ever pre-ordered anything.



Tanuj.


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## AC986 (Dec 22, 2013)

MDesigner @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> Earlier on, a point was made that people ought to dig in their current/older libraries to see what they can do before buying new ones. This is a great idea sometimes, but part of the attraction of newer libraries is that these are not only improving sonic quality but also workflow. Many composers don't have time to wrestle MIDI events to make older libraries sound good. Newer libraries make it easier to just load it "out of the box" and get stuff done more quickly AND with a convincing level of realism. Best of both worlds!



Perfecto MDesigner.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 22, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> As a side note: We Europeans may at any time a software return if it does not work. No matter what Eula have written the producers. European law!



+100

I am considering going to my Member of the European Parliament, and seeing where consumer rights stand on the issue of companies forbidding resale in the EULA. I am sure that no matter what loopholes are being exploited because it's software, if you buy a product which is in effect a musical instrument and it isnt clearly indicated at the point of purchase and in advertising (not hidden away in terms and conditions) that when you buy it you dont own it, you only own a non transferable licence, then that is against a consumers rights.

If you buy something and own it it must be your human right to be able to sell it. I am hoping that the European Court of Human Rights may help here.


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## Daryl (Dec 22, 2013)

The point is that sample libraries are made up of two components; software and audio files. Whilst the EU may have given the right to re-sell software, it doesn't cover audio files. Besides, you don't own them; you only own the licence, and many licences are not transferable, including your driving licence.

D


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## Ben H (Dec 22, 2013)

EDIT


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 22, 2013)

Daryl @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> The point is that sample libraries are made up of two components; software and audio files. Whilst the EU may have given the right to re-sell software, it doesn't cover audio files. Besides, you don't own them; you only own the licence, and many licences are not transferable, including your driving licence.
> 
> D



Maybe, maybe not. If I buy a Jimi Hendrix CD that is an audio file, and you can certainly re-sell CD's.

The main issue is also that it is not made clear at the point of purchase or in advertising that you are only buying a non-transferable licence. That is where consumers are being deliberatly mlslead IMHO.


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## chimuelo (Dec 22, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> As a side note: We Europeans may at any time a software return if it does not work. No matter what Eula have written the producers. European law!



I have often wished the USA would be more like Europe. More right of way lanes for bicycles, banning of plastics. Many really smart laws we are in dire need of.
With the exception of austerity, which basically means only a year of severance pay when laid, jeez, youze guys got it tough..... 8) 

Merry Christams and Happy New Year and buy as much musical shit as you need....


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## Daryl (Dec 22, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > The point is that sample libraries are made up of two components; software and audio files. Whilst the EU may have given the right to re-sell software, it doesn't cover audio files. Besides, you don't own them; you only own the licence, and many licences are not transferable, including your driving licence.
> ...


Yes, but this is a slippery slope. Let me give an example. Imagine that you make a CD of music. I buy that CD, so in your terms I own that CD. Now I decide to make a re-mix version of one of the tracks, and I manage to get it placed for an £80K ad. I think that you'd be asking me for the money. However, in your terms I bought the CD, I own it, and therefore I can do what I like with it. The only claim that you have is IP, and that's what all of this is about.

Look, there are plenty of developers who do allow you to re-sell their sample libraries, so if you find the "not allowed" clause objectionable, don't buy from those developers who include it in their EULA. Vote with your feet, as some people do when it comes to dongles.

D


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 22, 2013)

Remixing someone elses musical work which is copywrited is an entirely different issue to reselling a musical instrument.

But yes I will only ever buy from developers who allow resale.

However, as boring as it may be to some people on this forum to keep going on about it, I feel very strongly about consumer rights, so am just extremely interested to see if developers who don't allow it can be forced to indicate this clearly so that no one is mislead, even if their EULA can't be made illegal.

I would bet that there are many people who paid over a lot of money who had absolutely no idea they couldn't sell it seciond hand later. Which, however you look at it is wrong.


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## Daryl (Dec 22, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> Remixing someone elses musical work which is copywrited is an entirely different issue to reselling a musical instrument.


Both concern the licencing of IP, and the weakening of the laws that involve IP is a concern to all composers, or at least should be.

D


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## Daryl (Dec 22, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> However, as boring as it may be to some people on this forum to keep going on about it, I feel very strongly about consumer rights, so am just extremely interested to see if developers who don't allow it can be forced to indicate this clearly so that no one is mislead, even if their EULA can't be made illegal.
> 
> I would bet that there are many people who paid over a lot of money who had absolutely no idea they couldn't sell it seciond hand later. Which, however you look at it is wrong.


Sorry, I forgot to answer this. It's not wrong to disallow re-sale, IMO. However, I do agree that this policy should feature prominently on the label, so that customers know what they are getting into.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 22, 2013)

Not sure it has been mentioned, but with VSL you can politely request a demo license for just about any product they sell and they can give you a time limited (30 days usually) demo license to download to your elicenser dongle. Full unlimited access to the product for 30 days. That seems pretty cool to me and one of the advantages of the dongle system.


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## Daryl (Dec 22, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> Not sure it has been mentioned, but with VSL you can politely request a demo license for just about any product they sell and they can give you a time limited (30 days usually) demo license to download to your elicenser dongle. Full unlimited access to the product for 30 days. That seems pretty cool to me and one of the advantages of the dongle system.


And VSL allows you to re-sell their libraries as well. Win, win....!

D


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 22, 2013)

Daryl @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Sun Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I forgot to answer this. It's not wrong to disallow re-sale, IMO. However, I do agree that this policy should feature prominently on the label, so that customers know what they are getting into.
> ...



Well yes, that's my main concern really, then if people are happy with that, then that's fair enough. :D
Just looked on a very major developers site that don't allow resale, and when you look at their product page on the website, and then you add to the shopping cart, there is no mention anywhere that you are only buying a non transferable licence to use the instrument, and this is a very expensive library.

That's great that VSL do that. Hats off to them!

IMHO resale brings more money into the overall revenue pool which in turn helps everyone including developers. Consumers in this niche market are generally pretty obsessed (In a good way!) and they aren't going to be selling a library they no longer want in order to buy a new Fridge or designer jeans, they are going to put that money into re-investing in more libraries. :D


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 22, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > guitarman1960 @ Sun Dec 22 said:
> ...



Well yes, that's my main concern really, then if people are happy with that, then that's fair enough. :D
Just looked on a very major developers site that don't allow resale, and when you look at their product page on the website, and then you add to the shopping cart, there is no mention anywhere that you are only buying a non transferable licence to use the instrument, and this is a very expensive library.

That's great that VSL do that. Hats off to them!

IMHO resale brings more money into the overall revenue pool which in turn helps everyone including developers. Consumers in this niche market are generally pretty obsessed (In a good way!) and they aren't going to be selling a library they no longer want in order to buy a new Fridge or designer jeans, they are going to put that money into re-investing in more libraries. 
Plus the person who buys the second hand library will quite likely buy upgrades etc and also become a customer :D


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## PlasticMoonRain (Dec 22, 2013)

Let's go back to my example from my original post starting this conversation, and that is CineStrings and my disappointment with them.

Several people have brought up that fairly often (maybe more often than we'd want), libraries are released that are technically not 100% or even truly near completion. So in effect, we are all guinea pigs for libraries costing $500 to $1000 and up.

OK, I can live with that -- up to a point. I bought both CineBrass and CineWinds very early this year. Both were pretty good, but still had its wonky aspects, especially the latter. CineBrass, both Core and Pro, appeared in 2011. Version 1.5, didn't occur until March 2013.

CineWinds, which truly needed an update, took quite a while too. Both parts were released in mid-2012. I didn't see an update until this past summer.

Which brings up this important point as well: if I am going to drop serious money on a samples library that was released but still needs to have the kinks worked out, how long should I be waiting until it's what I expected when I bought it? 

Yes, this is all part of the gamble one takes buying these libraries.

P.S. A good solution so composers know what they are getting is perhaps have some kinds of Skype, WebEx, FaceTime, or other live streaming demos??


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 22, 2013)

I think that unless you actually try making music with them yourself in your own way, its practically impossible to tell if a mega expensive library is going to be a good long term investment.
Sure demos can let you hear the sounds, but for example with LASS, I've heard some amazing tracks done with LASS that sound nothing like what LASS sounds like on my setup. There's so many skills and factors involved with making even the best libraries sound like an awesome finished track, and I for one certainly need to put in a lot of hard work learning how to get the best from what I already have.
I saved up for ages last year and bought my dream Fender Custom Shop Strat, so its a bit like someone picking up that guitar and saying it doesn't sound like Jimi Hendrix to me!!!
Lots of skills to learn, I think!!! :D

P.S. By the way it's not only some sample libraries that need updates in order to work how they should. My day job is web design, and Adobe products have horrendous amounts of bugs and problems whenever the release the latest version of Dreamweaver or Photoshop etc, and Adobe are a large company.
Sadly seems inherant in the software industry to let paying customers be test pilots.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 22, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> ...I saved up for ages last year and bought my dream Fender Custom Shop Strat, so its a bit like someone picking up that guitar and saying it doesn't sound like Jimi Hendrix to me!!!
> Lots of skills to learn, I think!!! :D



Guitarman... A very valid point *but*... if the guitar doesn't sound like Hendrix because of the players inability they are still free to sell the guitar and recoup some of their money. With some of these sample libraries you cannot recoup some of your money through a resale regardless of whether the product falls short for you based on imperfections in the product or one's lack of ability.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 22, 2013)

+1000

That is EXACTLY the point I've been making in my earlier posts :D


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## germancomponist (Dec 22, 2013)

@guitarman1960

This is a wide field! 

I remember I opened a thread about this one or two years ago. I always had the same opinion as you have, but it has changed. The more developers I know now personally, the more I understand their point of view. Some don't care and allow it to resell their libraries, some do not. 

All what I can say is: I never preordered a library and I have learned to trust my ears when it comes to buy something new. But the best is it if you have friends who had bought the library of what you are interested... . Make a meeting and test it.


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## eric aron (Dec 22, 2013)

PlasticMoonRain @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> Let's go back to my example from my original post starting this conversation, and that is CineStrings and my disappointment with them.
> 
> Several people have brought up that fairly often (maybe more often than we'd want), libraries are released that are technically not 100% or even truly near completion. So in effect, we are all guinea pigs for libraries costing $500 to $1000 and up.
> 
> ...




yes, important point, and Cinesamples and 8 Dio are the examples of disrespect towards customers, waiting so long to update their libs because they choose to sell new ones before. this is unacceptable. more and more the customer has to be the guinea pig and the purchase puppet, and on the top of this, the forbid-to-resell slave. this don't exist in any other market. there are trials, and refunds. i don't bring any excuse to them on these points. they are just lazy to find a real solution, and so much more easy to hype sell.

I had the same experience with Cinewinds, and part of Cineperc, so low quality product in the result, unacceptable if I refer to their marketing claims. and its seems the same with the strings when i read the posts here... 

and 8dio taking refuge behind an elitist wall and auto satisfaction hype, preferring to favor a "loyal" big wallet group of customers with overweening fancy libs .. and neglecting the main products while this time, ignoring customers feedback.

so as for me, no buying from these 2 companies. 

Happily Spitfire, VSL, Orchestral Tools are in another ethic and quality level.


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## Vik (Dec 23, 2013)

I think the main problem with these libraries is that none of them really are good enough yet. That's why we keep comparing them and consider switching to other products... plus, in the case of the newest kid on the string block, Berlin, the current offer is introduced - and expires, it seems, before we know what kind of product we will be getting. Lack of communication. We *may* get a separate sordino expansion, but maybe not - and I, for one, don't know how their sordino 'script' sounds (but am sceptical for now). 

I bought an early version of VSL many years ago, and have also used other libraries (Siedlaczek, Miroslav) - and it's good to know that a lot has happened over the last years. But the current Sable library sounds too thin to be used alone. LASS has been recorded in a way which needs processing during playback in order to sound decent (and also have just a tad too much out of tune-ness in the attack portion of the sound to sound convincing - check the 100% Legato Sordino demo). Adagio may be good, but there are artefacts in there (noise which is being repeated if the sustains are looped), and sounds too lush and 'pad'-like to be used as a complete orchestra - _or so it seems from a non-buyer_. 

Maybe Spitfire Mural will be great, but will I need to buy Mural 1, 2 and 3 to get all the articulations I need - and then buy Sable 1, 2 and 3 to get the sound of a smaller ensemble? I don't need or want six products just for strings. 

Here's what I need: 
One main product, possibly with modules for the more special articulations. 
Scalability to control the size of the ensemble. 
Samples must not be so harsh that I need sound processing to work with them.
If out-of-tune samples are added for realism, I need a way to leave them out or use in-tune samples when that's what I want. 
No background noise in the actual samples, but I wouldn't mind an option to add some noise.
An extremely high level of ease-of-use. If a parameter needs to be edited, I want an option to edit it where the parameter is shown on the screen, not (only) in a separate window. 
Frequent updates in major things need to be fixed.
Auto-divisi - in order to not end up with the sound of eg. twice as many players when extra notes are needed. 
Portamento with speed control.
Some kind of adaptive legato. 
Proper communication about what the product offers. 
A way to purge not only all the articulations which aren't needed, but also all the notes which aren't needed (for memory saving). 
A way to remove Round Robin samples I don't want. 

When the manufacturers offer these things, all these libraries will be fully usable, and it will be just a question of preferences/tone/budget etc in terms of which we will end up with. We're *not* there yet. If one company with great sounding strings would offer all this today, I'd buy their library within half an hour.

ETA: some of the subjects in this post are partially off topic, so I posted the message as a separate thread as well: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35655


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

I listened to the 8dio Adagietto video and that sounds really 'pad' like to me, but then again if you play string patches with block chords then that's why it doesn;t sound like an orchestra for a start. I do love the 8dio Adagio Cellos though which sound fabulous.

For me the only library that sounds absolutely stunning right of the box with no need for processing or spending hours trying to eq it, is the Symphobia 1 and 2 libraries which are instantly usable and sound absolutely incredible.

That new Symphobia Orchestrator library also sounds stunning.

You always have to remember though that if you are expecting a library to sound like a commercial blockbuster movie score or trailer, then those scores and trailers will have had loads of processing and mastering done by the worlds top engineers with the best digital and analogue gear money can buy! Plus there will usually be either a real orchestra or some live players layered in, so no matter how good the library is and all the marketing hype and endorsements, you are not going to sound exactly like Brian Tyler or Hans Zimmer on your home rig even if you have the creative chops to pull it off! :D


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## korgscrew (Dec 23, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> I listened to the 8dio Adagietto video and that sounds really 'pad' like to me, but then again if you play string patches with block chords then that's why it doesn;t sound like an orchestra for a start. I do love the 8dio Adagio Cellos though which sound fabulous.
> 
> For me the only library that sounds absolutely stunning right of the box with no need for processing or spending hours trying to eq it, is the Symphobia 1 and 2 libraries which are instantly usable and sound absolutely incredible.
> 
> ...



If you buy the same tennis racket as Andy Murray, you wont be able to play like him.

You can sound like Zimmer et al, its not difficult. The fact is that it sounds like Zimmer et al.


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

korgscrew @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Mon Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I listened to the 8dio Adagietto video and that sounds really 'pad' like to me, but then again if you play string patches with block chords then that's why it doesn;t sound like an orchestra for a start. I do love the 8dio Adagio Cellos though which sound fabulous.
> ...



This thread is about the 'sound' of sample libraries and some disapointments with that and the gamble of buying expensive libraries, not about the merits or otherwise of the Hans Zimmer composing style. :D


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 23, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> I listened to the 8dio Adagietto video and that sounds really 'pad' like to me, but then again if you play string patches with block chords then that's why it doesn;t sound like an orchestra for a start.



That's why I'm in love with LASS's auto arranger.


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## uselessmind (Dec 23, 2013)

PlasticMoonRain @ Sun Dec 22 said:


> Let's go back to my example from my original post starting this conversation, and that is CineStrings and my disappointment with them.
> 
> Several people have brought up that fairly often (maybe more often than we'd want), libraries are released that are technically not 100% or even truly near completion. So in effect, we are all guinea pigs for libraries costing $500 to $1000 and up.
> 
> ...



I can so relate to that.
I bought some orchestral libs from a company that i hadn't bought from before.
The concept and tone, articulations, workflow etc are what i expected.
The older libraries wich i got a big discount on have been updated over the years and work pretty well.
Pretty happy with those purchases.
The new library that i bought for almost the full price is a different story with quite a few "imperfections".
Not happy with that purchase.

Given the companies previous releases in that series i thought they would do everything they can to make this one as good as possible from the start.

My mistake entirely since i don't know many examples where companies change the way they do things in favor of their customers.

Depending how support goes with this last one i will probably only buy products from this company after they've got a couple of well received updates and are heavily discounted.

Otoh i also bought a couple of libraries from Soundiron for the first time and i couldn't be happier with them.
So they join OrangeTree and Impact Soundworks as a company that i trust to deliver the quality i expect.


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## vicontrolu (Dec 23, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> For me the only library that sounds absolutely stunning right of the box with no need for processing or spending hours trying to eq it, is the Symphobia 1 and 2 libraries which are instantly usable and sound absolutely incredible.



This. I cant wait to try Adaggietto vs Symphobia sus patches. I think Symphobia has been at my template since the very beginning, while many other libraries haev been added and removed throughout the years.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 23, 2013)

Again, "guitarman", software is not hardware. Hardware is physical product, software is intellectual property.

So, summing up this and a couple of other threads going on thread, here is what you all want?

1. Massive but not resource demanding, and perfect right out of the box or maybe with 1 update within 3 months that makes it perfect.

2. Capable of great complexity with everything the "real things" can do, yet easy and intuitive to use. Certainly no manual reading should be required.

3. Have auto this and auto that so that unstudied people can use it just as well as trained people.

4. Be very devoid of room sound so that you can do your own processing with no blending between libraries, yet sound great right out of the box.

5. Have an easy yet totally customizable workflow.

6. Be priced so that almost everyone can afford it and yet be re-sellable with no dongles or copy protection that ever causes any convenience to the customer, no matter how much that hurts the developer.

Got it. Vey helpful. MAN, I am SO glad I never decided to become a library developer.


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## AC986 (Dec 23, 2013)

vicontrolu @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Mon Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > For me the only library that sounds absolutely stunning right of the box with no need for processing or spending hours trying to eq it, is the Symphobia 1 and 2 libraries which are instantly usable and sound absolutely incredible.
> ...



Right on! If I owned those two libraries I would probably layer both the sus patches into errrr, one gigantic sus patch.


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 23, 2013)

Hi Jay,

Your list is interesting and there definitely is some truth in it but which post from the previous posts above states.."No matter how bad it hurts the developer"? Is that not conjecture on your part?

I certainly want developers to flourish, that's why I have invested thousands and thousands in their companies without a demo I can try out on my system. I think a lot of folks on this forum have invested thousands in sound developers as well. 

I do think there is a way to improve making software purchases "without as much regret" and buyer's remorse as I have experienced in the past and by many others by the overwhelming comments on this particular topic. A system that certainly does not hurt the developer.

There is a theme I've seen on this forum when an issue is raised with a developer that " the developer cries out...we are not the bad guys". And this yes is true, but the guys actually paying for their software and supporting the developers that are on this list are not the bad guys either just because they want to not have to "gamble" on making a purchase...The title of this thread.

Dave


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 23, 2013)

Doc, we have had developer after developer after developer come here and testify how much piracy hurts them. And for many here, not all certainly, the response distills to" ok do what you have to, just don't inconvenience ME because I am honest."

Unfortunately, as with many things in life, the bad people do partially ruin it for the good people. We are all connected.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> Again, "guitarman", software is not hardware. Hardware is physical product, software is intellectual property.
> 
> So, summing up this and a couple of other threads going on thread, here is what you all want?
> 
> ...



Come on Jay. Of course we all want this. Is it possible? Maybe not right now but a guy can wish. No one's going to wish for:

1) Small and resource hungry and sucks right out of the box with no upgrades

2) Only capable of simplistic lines, can never approach realism and is difficult to use. Also comes with a 2000 page manual.

3) No Automation. 

4) Drenched in reverb.

5) Difficult and no customization.

6) Super expensive, not re-sellable, 15 dongles, etc.


People like guitarman should wish for stuff like he did. it pushes innovation. The reality is the developer who comes up with his wish list is the developer who gets his money.


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 23, 2013)

I hear you Jay. I know what you mean and that is truly disheartening.Just asking, what's wrong with a one octave demo of a few patches prior to purchase? Really lessens the gamble prior to the purchase in my opinion but please tell me if this is that bad of an idea.

Dave


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 23, 2013)

See, there is the difference. A lot of that I DON"T want.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 23, 2013)

DocMidi657 @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> I hear you Jay. I know what you mean and that is truly disheartening.Just asking, what's wrong with a one octave demo of a few patches prior to purchase? Really lessens the gamble prior to the purchase in my opinion but please tell me if this is that bad of an idea.
> 
> Dave



What's probably wrong is that some chowderheads will try to do something with that patch in a way that it was not intended to work and bash it. Also, I don't believe that gives you that much insight into the library.

But hey, if developers want to, I have no problem with it personally.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 23, 2013)

DocMidi657 @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> I hear you Jay. I know what you mean and that is truly disheartening.Just asking, what's wrong with a one octave demo of a few patches prior to purchase? Really lessens the gamble prior to the purchase in my opinion but please tell me if this is that bad of an idea.
> 
> Dave



I'd love that too, but I think the frankly unbelievable reaction to Cinesamples' free CinePerc snare here has probably put paid to that idea forever. A ridiculous forum member (who I believe is no longer here) chopped all but the tail of a sample, put 30db of gain in it, and posted it as the raw sound saying "see, the library is terrible, it sounds awful and is full of noise". Of course, many would just have clicked on his fraudulent mp3 and not bothered to check themselves by downloading the 1gb free patch that it was bogus. But worse, one of the mods here backed him up. Yup, that's how VI Control, seen at its absolute worst, can treat generous free demos from developers. The result of course is the end of useful ideas like that (and I strongly suspect the seeds of why Cinesamples aren't as active here as they might be otherwise).


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 23, 2013)

And BAMMM, Guy hits the nail on the head.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 23, 2013)

I'll mention again one of the points I made in my earlier post...

All these "I would buy your stuff if you did A and B" chips never get cashed. Or at least, not in large enough quantities to take the risk. It's a misnomer. And one as regularly touted as the "If you priced your products lower, more people would buy them and you'd make more money" canard, as if that's how everything works economically.

But, at the same time, I do agree that issues need to be fixed when they're discovered and that consumers shouldn't be made to feel bad for pointing them out, as long as they do so respectfully. Some of the problems on here have been caused by deliberately incendiary language. 

And being faced with a product that has obvious useability issues whilst the same company excitedly promos their newest product (or indeed several products before an older one is updated) is understandably frustrating. 

Though I would offer a word of caution over putting too much emphasis on quick and extensive updates post-release, otherwise you will start to make it look like a marketing technique for the less scrupulous out there... deliberately crippled samples, with a pre-prepared fix awaiting praise and adulation? Stranger things have happened.


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm not sure a one octave demo could ever work for a complicated or detailed library. Any library can do the simple stuff, but it's all the little winkles that cause most libraries to fall over on their collective faces.

I don't think that there will be a solution, until we are no longer using samples, and are using totally modelled instruments. With those the download could be the whole library, and time limited demos could give you the chance to try them out in your own studios. This would be quick and easy for all concerned. However, if you have to download a load of samples, taking a gazzillion hours, it's really not going to be practicable.

D


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## kitekrazy (Dec 23, 2013)

JE Martinsen @ Sat Dec 21 said:


> Speaking of sample library trials and demos, Kirk Hunter is offering a free trial of his new Spotlight Solo Strings. I have some older KH library demos and they're really quite extensive so you could get a good impression of the overall sound and feel.
> 
> http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/spotlight.html
> 
> ...



Has anyone tried the free trial? It's very complicated. Doesn't seem to work. This looks like a chance of backfiring.


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## Aquatone (Dec 23, 2013)

Let me be one of the first brave souls to say that I am not having trouble with Cinesamples. I got in on the sales a month or so ago. Yes, the woodwinds could stand the same "de-noise" treatment that was done with Cinestrings. However, I used Cinewinds quite exposed on a production in November. It was rather solo woodwind heavy. I used Cineperc throughout. I used Cinestrings on one of the final cues, two days after I bought it. Everything worked and sounded great. Plus, they were relatively easy to use. I made back my investment on those libraries during the production. So, they have worked for me. Calling Cinesamples products "unusable" or even "unacceptable" should require the words "to me" adjoining the statement. Otherwise, I find that statement provably incorrect.

One effective solution to "Gambling on buying expensive libraries" is to not buy anything. Having every library gives you options but does it make you better at composing? NO! Sometimes I get the sense that some think of buying sample libraries as way to be in the "Jelly of the Month" club. I only buy something when a project comes up that I need it for or if I want to get something that intrigues me. If I were to advise someone starting out, I would say get an older proven library like EWQLSO because it isn't a gamble. It works even though it's older sampling technology and yes, it has it's flaws and noises in the samples along with every other library. So, suck it up and get to work writing music until you are forced to have to upgrade. Once you get to that point, you can then experience the fun world of endless CC editing and mixing. But you have to be either a good programmer, a good writer, or both. As much as is hoped, the tools will not do the work. 

One last thing about Cinestrings, I have a feeling many folks jumped in on the introductory price. I think a good number of beginners bought it because in could be used with the Kontakt player. The Kontakt player, from what I understand, will not be able to let you select the "HQ" switch found in the "wrench" options in the full Kontakt version. If you are not careful, you will have dropouts if you have "conflicting" CC#1 and CC#2 movements. A little bit of CC editing can usually get around it. Without "HQ" mode engaged, the crossfades work by killing voices. So, it is possible to crossfade into a "killed" sample. "HQ" solves this. I would think they would move this feature to the GUI for Kontakt player users. So, if you are a "Kontakt player" user this could be your problem with dropouts. Upgrading to full Kontakt would be something considered as "not a Gamble".


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## korgscrew (Dec 23, 2013)

eric aron @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> PlasticMoonRain @ Sun Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Let's go back to my example from my original post starting this conversation, and that is CineStrings and my disappointment with them.
> ...



And the award for "Most disrespectful post" goes to ^


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## germancomponist (Dec 23, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> JE Martinsen @ Sat Dec 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of sample library trials and demos, Kirk Hunter is offering a free trial of his new Spotlight Solo Strings. I have some older KH library demos and they're really quite extensive so you could get a good impression of the overall sound and feel.
> ...



Interesting!

I will test this asap.


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## germancomponist (Dec 23, 2013)

Aquatone @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> One last thing about Cinestrings, I have a feeling many folks jumped in on the introductory price. I think a good number of beginners bought it because in could be used with the Kontakt player. The Kontakt player, from what I understand, will not be able to let you select the "HQ" switch found in the "wrench" options in the full Kontakt version. If you are not careful, you will have dropouts if you have "conflicting" CC#1 and CC#2 movements. A little bit of CC editing can usually get around it. Without "HQ" mode engaged, the crossfades work by killing voices. So, it is possible to crossfade into a "killed" sample. "HQ" solves this. I would think they would move this feature to the GUI for Kontakt player users. So, if you are a "Kontakt player" user this could be your problem with dropouts. Upgrading to full Kontakt would be something considered as "not a Gamble".



+1


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 23, 2013)

Aquatone @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> One last thing about Cinestrings, I have a feeling many folks jumped in on the introductory price. I think a good number of beginners bought it because in could be used with the Kontakt player. The Kontakt player, from what I understand, will not be able to let you select the "HQ" switch found in the "wrench" options in the full Kontakt version. If you are not careful, you will have dropouts if you have "conflicting" CC#1 and CC#2 movements. A little bit of CC editing can usually get around it. Without "HQ" mode engaged, the crossfades work by killing voices. So, it is possible to crossfade into a "killed" sample. "HQ" solves this. I would think they would move this feature to the GUI for Kontakt player users. So, if you are a "Kontakt player" user this could be your problem with dropouts. Upgrading to full Kontakt would be something considered as "not a Gamble".



Thanks v much for this pointer - I think that might explain a lot or even all my issues. I'd heard something about HQ mode but forgot all about it in my first real session with it. I just tried a quick test earlier and it seems WAY more reliable to me - if that's all my issues have been I'll feel a dummy but thrilled it's so easily solved. Really do like the library otherwise.

I also agree that this needs to be available in the main gui for Player owners - also I think they should change it to the default being "on" if it really is the cause of so many woes.


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## Aquatone (Dec 23, 2013)

Guy,
First, no problem and I hope it helps. It is talked about in the manual (P.20) and Sam Estes talked about it at least once on this forum in more detail. I remember the days of printed manuals and how fun it was to get a new piece of gear, pour a beverage, and read through it. Today, the PDFs aren't as tactile but still a necessity. Cinestrings has a ton of tweak-ability in performance which is a double edged sword but I equate it to learning a synth. As a matter of fact, fooling a Kontakt script can sometimes make nice, "happy accidents".

The only drawback to "HQ" mode is a higher voice count. So, I understand their choice for it not being a default. I would also suppose that not having the switch on the GUI could be a slight oversight (or honest lack of foresight) while dealing with the problem of NI forcing everyone into K5.3. Regardless, the option is there. And, it's quite a trick to find ways to give the user a wealth of customization and still keep the thing working. Instead of circuit bending, we will have "script bending" in the near future =o When watching the walkthrough/demo videos, notice Mike always sets the CC#2 in one position then plays. He doesn't really do CC#2 and CC#1 at the same time or drastic CC#1 through a phrase. I also think of the CC#2 adjustment as a way to access different sustain types within one patch…non-vibrato, vibrato, espressivo…instead of a "vibrato" intensity control like one would find on Friedlander violin, for example. I noted that in the video when I watched it.

To the point of the discussion,
Cinesamples, East West, Orchestral Tools, VSL, among others are not inept in any way. Having produced my own personal libraries, it is a daunting task. I have created some cool things that work great, for me. But trying to market to a vast set of users is mind boggling. That these companies have done it is worthy of some kind of respect. A risk takes balls. When a developer invests hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars and hours upon of man power on a project, it is foolish to think they are not trying to make it as desirable and useful as possible to as many consumers as they can. At the same time, a developer will be protective of their "baby". It can get hard for both sides to give each other the benefit of the doubt if a fair discourse isn't adhered to. The investment of the developer doesn't entitle them to dictatorial arrogance. The investment of a purchase by the consumer doesn't entitle them to treat the developer like a third world whore. When I talk to a developer about a concern or problem, I always have exacting, tangible information to give them. I have gotten slightly condescending responses like "that's how a real orchestra works", but I continue to explain my problem with exacting points (pan value, dB, etc.) without lecturing them about my resumé. This only helps. And, I have received one or two "Oh yeah, you're right we'll fix that" responses. To quote Foghorn Leghorn, "You can argue with me but you can't argue with math, son". If your point is made with constructive respect, it will be considered with respect.

Finally, airing one's grievances on a forum where developers repeatedly say "Please open a support ticket" only lowers the quality of moral. Cinesamples, Orchestral Tools, and Spitfire (to name a few) have really done a thankless job of keeping a near "support system" on this forum. Have some sort of respect and operate within their support system. They have a chain of respondents to get you reasonably quick and pointed help. I won't say you can't complain, if you must, but you never know who is watching… like Santa Claus, for example.

Sorry for the lecture. I had to get it off my chest. Now, I'm off for Christmas cheer.

Matt


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## Polarity (Dec 23, 2013)

well, I'm not a beginner :roll: 
I'm not using Kontakt Player, but full Kontakt.
I tried this evening the HQ mode... but seems it didn't change too much it's behaving...
I'll try more again.
For now, I will simply not use the poly legato, not a big deal actually...
and not worried about the Full Ensemble patches too...
I bought this library for using the single sections.
In any case if doing correct orchestration I believe it will be rare that I'll play two notes on the same section...

EDIT: I hope that Orange Tree's "Intuition" will be out available soon...
so to use it on CineStrings in the same way as the AutoArranger in LASS.


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## Polarity (Dec 23, 2013)

maest @ Fri 20 Dec said:


> On a side note I am very, very sad that some of you are finding our library a "disappointment" it's very disheartening to read. All I can say is that I try, and will continue to try to make it better for you all.
> 
> Wish you all the best and a happy holiday,
> 
> ...



I'm sorry Sam, I'm one of those who used that word.
Probably it feels for you harder than how I meant.
Man, being not english language born can alter the perception of words sometimes.
Perhaps I should find another word...

[deleted text]

All the best 
Andrea


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## Hannes_F (Dec 23, 2013)

Aquatone @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> Finally, airing one's grievances on a forum where developers repeatedly say "Please open a support ticket" only lowers the quality of moral.



One idea would be that posts about bugs without the poster having contacted the support desk of the respective developer before could generally be moderated. We shy away a bit from such measures but the idea is there.

The reasons why we shy away are 1st the workload on moderators and 2nd possible discussions about the topic of moderating itself, and we don't want to get entangled into that. I hope I don't say too much by revealing that we would wish for less spontaneous venting though.


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## devastat (Dec 23, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> One idea would be that posts about bugs without the poster having contacted the support desk of the respective developer before could generally be moderated. We shy away a bit from such measures but the idea is there.


I for one would be extremely disappointed if such measures would be taken. First and foremost because I have always seen this forum as a place where these products can be openly discussed on..


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## Hannes_F (Dec 23, 2013)

devastat @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 24 said:
> 
> 
> > One idea would be that posts about bugs without the poster having contacted the support desk of the respective developer before could generally be moderated. We shy away a bit from such measures but the idea is there.
> ...



I would, too. However there is too much unreflected venting. The inner filter of reason does not work for everybody and the question is how this could be improved.


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## germancomponist (Dec 23, 2013)

devastat @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 24 said:
> 
> 
> > One idea would be that posts about bugs without the poster having contacted the support desk of the respective developer before could generally be moderated. We shy away a bit from such measures but the idea is there.
> ...



Yeah, I hope but am more sure that VI-Control will never move to a NS forum 2. edition!


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 23, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> devastat @ Tue Dec 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 24 said:
> ...



+1.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 23, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> Yeah, I hope but am more sure that VI-Control will never move to a NS forum 2. edition!



That is exactly one reason why moderation has been extremely cautious so far. However we see that some here take their liberty so far now that they might force us to a change.

It is an old tune: overbend things and you might provoke new rules that initially nobody wanted.

What we want is a fair exchange between users and developers. Fair towards both directions. Only then it can be fruitful. If there are any ideas about how to improve this then let us know.

_NB: 'NS' is referring to a forum that suffered from massive over-moderation in favor to certain developers. Nobody wants that back, please help us with it._[/i]


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## germancomponist (Dec 23, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Dec 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I hope but am more sure that VI-Control will never move to a NS forum 2. edition!
> ...



Are you talking about your own opinion (very German....), or about the opinion of other moderators?


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## Hannes_F (Dec 23, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> Are you talking about your own opinion (very German....), or about the opinion of other moderators?



There has been much discussion about this behind the doors.

I can say that moderation per se is most the time only done with much mutual consulting between moderators, except of blatant spam of course. Also, before any forum member is adressed, be it per PM or otherwise, this case has extensively been discussed before.

The bottom line, especially in this thread, is this: Discussion about sample libraries are eminently important and the bread and butter topic in this forum. Unfair behaviour can damage this, so it is sometimes better to think twice and self-control.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 24, 2013)

Hmm.

Here's the thing. From a user's perspective, I find support among different developers hugely variable, both in terms of speed and quality of response. For years I've employed both forums and official support in different situations and at different times. I'm a week without response from Steinberg right now. A couple of years ago Piotr gave me essential and detailed advice on problems migrating EWQL libraries on the Soundsonline forum where my ticket seemed to get overlooked. More recently, a kind soul PM'd me after I mentioned a long-standing problem with a Well Respected Developer (WRD) in passing - a company who enjoy a great reputation for their support. I'd had a couple of direct back and forths with them over my issue via support tickets, but for whatever reason they didn't give me the simple solution (in fact they'd fixed my problem with an nkr some months earlier). Even when I subsequently politely pointed out that they'd failed to point me in the right direction with my issue solved months earlier, they just replied that they were glad I'd got it sorted - no sense of "whoops, sorry we missed your issue".

We've all seen some knee jerk posts that aren't helpful, but imo the advantages of unmoderated unofficial support massively outweigh the drawbacks - babies and bathwater come to mind. I know many developers would rather all support issues were never discussed publicly, but my own experience leads me to conclude that this would not be beneficial for consumers. I think its usually appropriate for developers themselves to not get directly involved in specific forum debates or just point to support tickets, but the wisdom of the crowd is so often invaluable.

I'm very concerned that there is some sword of Damocles hanging over us all should one too many frustrated people make an over-emotive post. I'd far far rather that any specific rudeness / stupidity get dealt with on a case-by-case basis.


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## Arbee (Dec 24, 2013)

Just for balance, and just as people on this forum might potentially damage a developer's sales and reputation through impulsive venting, is it not equally true that a developer can use this forum to manipulate potential customers into fanboyism and taking an impulsive risk with their money? Just saying it cuts both ways, and therefore to censor purely to the benefit of the developer is very skewed IMHO. Certainly don't mean to be harsh, I simply cherish democracy, warts an' all.

In any case, I really believe most folk here can recognise venting for what it is, just venting.

.


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## germancomponist (Dec 24, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> We've all seen some knee jerk posts that aren't helpful, but imo the advantages of unmoderated unofficial support massively outweigh the drawbacks - babies and bathwater come to mind. I know many developers would rather all support issues were never discussed publicly, but my own experience leads me to conclude that this would not be beneficial for consumers. I think its usually appropriate for developers themselves to not get directly involved in specific forum debates or just point to support tickets, but the wisdom of the crowd is so often invaluable.
> 
> I'm very concerned that there is some sword of Damocles hanging over us all should one too many frustrated people make an over-emotive post. I'd far far rather that any specific rudeness / stupidity get dealt with on a case-by-case basis.



+1


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## Hannes_F (Dec 24, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> I'm very concerned that there is some sword of Damocles hanging over us all should one too many frustrated people make an over-emotive post. I'd far far rather that any specific rudeness / stupidity get dealt with on a case-by-case basis.



I am with you here. However it turns out that the case-by-case basis is not quite easy. Some people understand little hints but not everybody.



Arbee said:


> Just saying it cuts both ways, and therefore to censor purely to the benefit of the developer is very skewed IMHO.



Communication problem: I talked about fairness.

One neuralgic point: We have a forum section called 'Commercial announcements' and the 'Sample talk'. So for a product there usually are two threads, and I think this is good. I feel there should be a natural code of conduct about what is appropriate in the one thread and what in the other. However currently there don't exist any fixed rules about that.

Usually the 'Commercial announcements' thread is started by the developer himself, and also he answers questions there about his announcements. I feel uncomfortable then if other developers go into that thread and mention their product whereas in the 'Sample talk' thread this is OK for me. However this is not a fixed rule, just what I would do.

Now why are developers sometimes inclined to enter the 'Commercial announcements' thread of another developer? It can happen because forum users mention the competitor's product in this very thread. Personally I think this is bad style. If I think that product X is superior to product Y then I would feel free to discuss this in 'Sample talk' but not in the official announcement thread of one of these products within 'Commercial announcements'.

Makes sense?


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## Arbee (Dec 24, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> Makes sense?


Yep, in specific Commercial Announcements posts it makes perfect sense to me to prevent competitor activity (disclosed and undisclosed). I often wonder myself if this is all those threads should be, one way information and locked down with, as you say, questions, responses and discussion separately over in Sample Talk in a separate thread.

.


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## Daryl (Dec 24, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> One neuralgic point: We have a forum section called 'Commercial announcements' and the 'Sample talk'. So for a product there usually are two threads, and I think this is good. I feel there should be a natural code of conduct about what is appropriate in the one thread and what in the other. However currently there don't exist any fixed rules about that.
> 
> Usually the 'Commercial announcements' thread is started by the developer himself, and also he answers questions there about his announcements. I feel uncomfortable then if other developers go into that thread and mention their product whereas in the 'Sample talk' thread this is OK for me. However this is not a fixed rule, just what I would do.
> 
> ...


Hannes, I agree with you there. In one respect I feel that the commercial announcement thread should be kept pristine, so that the developer can answer questions about their product, without interference from other developers. However, there is a problem with that. When the developer starts making wild claims about how their product is the first and only product to do X or Y, it becomes a problem for other developers who may have had those features for years. The best solution would be for the developer not to make these claims in the first place, but unless there is a way to persuade them not to exaggerate, I don't see this happening. In fact, I'm sure that some developers really believe that they were the first or that something is "next generation", whatever that means. Perhaps they should be allowed to make any claims they like, and all refuting (or otherwise) should be done in a separate sample talk thread. However, as we've seen in the past, developers also think that they can muscle in on discussions between users, sometimes even going as far as to copy and paste favourable reviews from magazines, in order to try to persuade people that the user who is criticising their product doesn't know anything. fair enough, but then they have to expect to be shouted down, as in a sample talk thread they have no more right to an opinion than any one else.

I don't know what the answer is to all of this. However, I do think that most developers are very respectful about each others' products. It's usually the fanboys who get their collective knickers in a twist. :wink: 

D


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## Stinki (Dec 24, 2013)

I don't like to gamble.

When I buy an expensive instrument, I go to a few music shops and try a few models until I find the one I crave. I am always offered the opportunity to bring it back in a couple of months and have it tweaked and set-up how I like it at no extra cost. But it always sounds pretty much how I expect it to when I take it home.

I could buy the same model over the internet, but I wouldn't know that this model was the one I wanted; it might not be in good condition etc, but it would certainly be much cheaper. That would be a gamble.

I notice that these music shops have a few boxed up sets of sample libraries, not many.

To buy a sample library, I would prefer to go to a few music shops and try a few models until I find the one I crave. I would be willing to pay a bit extra for this service. They could also receive a commission for arranging for me to have downloadable-only software after I have tried it.

The internet isn't always the best sales medium.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 24, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Dec 23 said:


> kitekrazy @ Mon Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > JE Martinsen @ Sat Dec 21 said:
> ...



Let me know if you can get your demo to work. I've been exchanging emails with KH trying to get it to work.


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## Polarity (Dec 24, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Tue 24 Dec said:


> I would, too. However there is too much unreflected venting. The inner filter of reason does not work for everybody and the question is how this could be improved.



You are right Hannes.
Understanding that I could be one of those, I won't vent anymore now.
I will edit my previous post and invite you to feel free of delete anything else wrong I could have written.
(I know, the damage is already done, but better avoid more for future)
No problem and no offense... 
I don't want to offense anyone here, user or developer that is.
I'm really sorry.
For me a PM to invite to stop whatever behave is always better to make things clear than little hints...


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 24, 2013)

Stinki @ Tue Dec 24 said:


> I don't like to gamble.
> 
> When I buy an expensive instrument, I go to a few music shops and try a few models until I find the one I crave. I am always offered the opportunity to bring it back in a couple of months and have it tweaked and set-up how I like it at no extra cost. But it always sounds pretty much how I expect it to when I take it home.
> 
> ...



Sorry, for a vast majority of the libraries promoed on this forum, they are direct downloads. This is the only way to give a lower price that removes shipping, dealer and distributor discounts, also in many areas, sales tax, from the equation. Which, BTW, is what the majority asked for.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 24, 2013)

To the point- there is definitely some truth to the "gambling " aspect of buying sample libraries. That said, it would be good if developers and buyers alike would employ a judicious filter between their brains and their typing fingers. Mutual respect and civility would go a long way towards solving problems in this community. There's nothing wrong about being passionate- as long as it doesn't cross the line into rudeness and ad hominem attacks.

Peace in the valley and happy holidays, fellow V.I.C. Members


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