# Yesterday and Today in a nutshell



## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)




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## Guy Rowland (May 12, 2014)

The Beatles, 1968

Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude [fade out]


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:


> The Beatles, 1968
> 
> Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
> Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
> ...



You totally missed the point, it is not just about the repetition, it is the sentiment expressed. And that btw was only the outro of an otherwise stellar song.


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## Guy Rowland (May 12, 2014)

I'm being cheeky, of course.

But you missed mine, really - you're cherry picking. My challenge to you - an honest one - is to find some great lyrics from 2014 and some terrible ones (preferably also bad taste) from 1975. Shouldn't be too hard.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:


> I'm being cheeky, of course.
> 
> But you missed mine, really - you're cherry picking. My challenge to you - an honest one - is to find some great lyrics from 2014 and some terrible ones (preferably also bad taste) from 1975. Shouldn't be too hard.



Of course, but all you have to do is compare the lyrics for this years 100 top ten songs and then compare them to these and I submit the conclusion should be obvious.

http://www.chairborneranger.com/top100/top100-1967.htm


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## Guy Rowland (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> Of course, but all you have to do is compare the lyrics for this years 100 top ten songs and then compare them to these and I submit the conclusion should be obvious.
> 
> http://www.chairborneranger.com/top100/top100-1967.htm



Ah no, that's cheating - I'll pick 1975 cos in this context its a random year. UK. What we got?

Umn.... Status Quo "down down"... Bay City Rollers "Bye Bye Baby"... Mud "Oh Boy"... 

But they're all innocent enough I guess. If you want nasty bad taste, skip to the Pistols in '77. For that matter, Tom Jones' 1968 singalong classic Deliliah might have required more skill in writing than Nicki Minaj's little opus, but:



> I could see that girl was no good for me
> But I was lost like a slave that no man could free
> At break of day when that man drove away, I was waiting
> I cross the street to her house and she opened the door
> ...



Er, right. Think I'll take my chances with Nicki Minaj...


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

Well that tells me all I need to know about you


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## rayinstirling (May 12, 2014)

1967

The year I sung and played in front of thousands, was offered a pro contract and turned it down because it wasn't a "real" job.

No regrets! I married a nurse


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## Guy Rowland (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> Well that tells me all I need to know about you



Not a wife killer! And PROUD!


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## JonFairhurst (May 12, 2014)

When I was 13 years old, my favorite single lyric was...

_Snot is running down his nose._

Let's face it. With lyrics, context is everything.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (May 12, 2014)

What on earth are you guys talking about??
I really have no idea.

Feel free to continue this surrealistic thread though, cause it might be some sort of code, like the Voynich manuscript, and I don't want to interfere.

I'll just pretend this menstrual cramp never happened.

- Jerome


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

I would go back farther to make a similar point, which is why I am a dogged archivist and try to write songs from much earlier eras-

"The way you wear your hat
The way you sip your tea
The memory of all that
No no, they can't take that away from me

The way your smile just beams
The way you sing off-key
The way you haunt my dreams 
No no, they can't take that away from me.."

On the other hand, while I'm a sentimentalist, I recognize that past the braggadocio and the sexism, hip hop has produced some amazing hard-edged lyricists.


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## José Herring (May 12, 2014)

When I was 12 this song was all the rage: 

I've got big balls
I've got big balls
And they're such big balls
fancy big balls
And he's got big balls,
And she's got big balls,
But we've got the biggest balls of them all!
--AC/DC - Big Balls Lyrics 

Face it. There's crap in every era. What are you going to focus on?


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:


> The Beatles, 1968
> 
> Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
> Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Jude
> ...



Guy, you missed two nahs on each line. They would have imparted the true meaning of the song to you :wink:


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

Of course but if you look at the lyrics of the top 100 songs of then and compare to now on Average, the level is higher and more importantly people were not celebrating calling each other vile and sexist names. If you don't think that matters, then obviously what I posted will not resonate to you the way it did with me when I saw it on Facebook.


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Mon May 12 said:


> 1967
> 
> The year I sung and played in front of thousands, was offered a pro contract and turned it down because it wasn't a "real" job.
> 
> No regrets! I married a nurse



Good forward thinking- one needs care in one's dotage.

I never wanted a "real" job.


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## jleckie (May 12, 2014)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Mon May 12 said:


> What on earth are you guys talking about??
> I really have no idea.
> 
> Feel free to continue this surrealistic thread though, cause it might be some sort of code, like the Voynich manuscript, and I don't want to interfere.
> ...



Its simple. Lurker is oversimplifying song intelligence from the past vs the present.


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## José Herring (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> Of course but if you look at the lyrics of the top 100 songs of then and compare to now on Average, the level is higher and more importantly people were not celebrating calling each other vile and sexist names. If you don't think that matters, then obviously what I posted will not resonate to you the way it did with me when I saw it on Facebook.



I do think it matters. I just think that it's easy to look at the past with rose colored glasses.

And, I just so happened to look at the billboard charts this morning. "Happy" is holding strong at number 2, "All of Me" by John Legend at no. 1. 

Take a deep breath. Things aren't that fucked up....yet :lol: 

Though the big news is JayZ got bitch slapped by his wife's sister at the Met last night. But, the way I see it, he had it comin'. =o


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## AC986 (May 12, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Mon May 12 said:


> When I was 13 years old, my favorite single lyric was...
> 
> _Snot is running down his nose._



The lady that wrote those lyrics lived 3 miles away. I don't if she still does.


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## PMortise (May 12, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon May 12 said:


> ...Though the big news is JayZ got bitch slapped by his wife's sister at the Met last night. But, the way I see it, he had it comin'. =o


That remind me of a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUkysRJH8hM (song)! _-)


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

Anyway, I am not the creator of that post. Someone posted it on Facebook and for me it rings true.


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## chimuelo (May 12, 2014)

Straight out Nevada, A mutha f..ker named Viva,
I f..k the bitches in the band called Diva,
When Im called on,
I got a sawed off,
I Pull the trigger mutha f..kers will be hauled off,
U 2 bitch if you f..k with me,
the Police are gonna have to come and get me......

I try to stay current since I like playing for old whiners and youngstas looking to score....

But the OP demonstrated how the Liberal War on women is so cool and effective, well not the Clintons war on women, but the guise of musicians, comedians, etc. Where we can all say hey man...it's art... :mrgreen:


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## Jerome Vonhogen (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> (...) if you look at the lyrics of the top 100 songs of then and compare to now on Average, the level is higher and more importantly people were not celebrating calling each other vile and sexist names.



That maybe true, but people didn't need to call each other sexist names in song texts, because sexism was still socially accepted in the 1970s.

Here are some ads from the 1970s to illustrate this historical fact.

- Jerome


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

I see and calling them bitches, cunts, and hoes is something you see as progress?


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## Guy Rowland (May 12, 2014)

jleckie @ Mon May 12 said:


> Its simple. Lurker is oversimplifying song intelligence from the past vs the present.



That is pretty much it. We've had plenty of examples of terrible / offensive lyrics from the good old days, and we all know there's good stuff now. It's just dog whistle stuff really, isn't it? A basic appeal to say "yeah, weren't led zep awesome in the good old days and now everything's rubbish". It's the online viral equivalent of soundbite politics.

With popular music (can't think of a better term), we're in an interesting place. I think revolution and innovation have gone and I don't think they're coming back because they were mostly driven by technology with a bit of sociology on the side. The last significant tech that was invented was the sampler, 35 years ago ending a whirlwind of synths, drum machines, electric guitars, amplification etc. Now music in all its forms is pretty democratised to a great proportion of the planet.

So we're in the age of refinement (at least in theory). I like the huge melting pot out there. I posted in that other thread that the two bands I've been listening too the most lately are The Civil Wars and The Jezabels. The Civil Wars (what an ironic name that turned out to be) are as simple as you can get... though sometimes deceptively so. Voices, songs, solid playing usually from just one or two acoustic instruments. The Jezabels are just another indie / rock band on paper, but I love her voice and they write great passionate songs about unusual things. Another band I love is Chvrches, fantastic synth pop with a heart and some intelligence. Nashville, Australia, Glasgow....

Wow, it's late and I'm clearly rambling. It's just tiresome to read another "everything was better in the old days" post. It's a great time for music, there's so much good stuff out there, some of it popular a lot of it not. In a sense, not a lot has changed, but the diversity now is something I love.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

I never said that "everything was better in the old days" because it wasn't. Many things are better nows: better technology, less racism, less homophobia, etc. But yes, the AVERAGE level of pop music is worse; the culture is more crude and vulgar, which is worse. Those are my opinions and apparently shared by a bunch of people on Facebook, a fair number of whom are much younger than me. But if you want to write that off as just being old and romanticizing the past it is fine with me.


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## José Herring (May 12, 2014)

That's why the lady is a tramp.


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## KEnK (May 12, 2014)

While it seems to white people that racism is somewhat a thing of the past,
that things have improved,
most people of color will not entirely agree.

That said- there is a big difference between the sexism of pop culture
in the "old days" and the rampant misogyny you see today.

They're not at all the same thing.

As to Led Zeppelin lyrics-
I was a big fan in the 70s (still am)
and was very surprised when a very forward independent thinking friend
said he thought LZ's lyrics "sucked" because they were so sexist.

That never occurred to me before that moment,
and I never looked at any of their lyrics that same way since.

k


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## Jerome Vonhogen (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> I see and calling them bitches, cunts, and hoes is something you see as progress?


???
I have no idea what those words mean, since I was born in the 1970s. 8) 

You know what? Let's blame that young, irresponsible and ill-mannered W.A. Mozart for starting all this with that vulgar canon "Difficile Lectu". I'll start a smear campaign on Facebook right away! :wink: 

By the way, here are a few more examples of socially accepted sexism from the 1970s (sorry, I couldn't resist).

- Jerome


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## Guy Rowland (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> I never said that "everything was better in the old days" because it wasn't. Many things are better nows: better technology, less racism, less homophobia, etc. But yes, the AVERAGE level of pop music is worse; the culture is more crude and vulgar, which is worse. Those are my opinions and apparently shared by a bunch of people on Facebook, a fair number of whom are much younger than me. But if you want to write that off as just being old and romanticizing the past it is fine with me.



The entire implication of that little facebook meme is that "music was better in the olden days". What is its point, if not that?

Has pop music got worse? Well that debate's not off to a great start, because Led Zeppelin weren't a pop act. In fact in the UK didn't even have a single in the charts til 1997 - http://www.officialcharts.com/artist/_/led%20zeppelin/ . What on earth is the point of comparing one of their songs to Nicki Minaj other than to try and score a cheap laugh? While we're at it, why not compare the staves of Coldplay vs Shostakovich? That would sure make 'those whiny Brits look stupid. ha!

On what level are you objecting? That the Minaj lyrics are banal or offensive or both? The Bay City Rollers sure wrote banal songs in the 1970s. If it's offence that bothers you, then do you approve of AC/DC's Big Balls? Did you approve back in the day? Jose pointed out Happy and All Of Me are currently #1 and #2 in the US - how does that advance the argument that pop ain't what it used to be? (these are all good questions - I'd genuinely be interested in your replies).

There's a (possibly) interesting debate to be had here about the history of offensiveness in pop lyrics and whether or not they are becoming normalised, but the FB meme just reads like lazy classic dogwhistle stuff. Sorry.


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> I never said that "everything was better in the old days" because it wasn't. Many things are better nows: better technology, less racism, less homophobia, etc. But yes, the AVERAGE level of pop music is worse; the culture is more crude and vulgar, which is worse. Those are my opinions and apparently shared by a bunch of people on Facebook, a fair number of whom are much younger than me. But if you want to write that off as just being old and romanticizing the past it is fine with me.



The present and the future usually look dire. It's harder for the past to hurt you, and the passage of time often blunts the worst parts of ones' life while elevating the best. 

Personally, I like nostalgia. It tends to be gentle. I like the music of my youth. I find that most people do. I leave generalized judgements like "good" and "better " music to you Jay, as the arbiter of...well...so many things. :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 12, 2014)

Are there any Hal Davids or Bernie Taupins making a living today?

True there are very few songwriters too, but that's the last ten years.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (May 12, 2014)

KEnK @ Tue May 13 said:


> That said- there is a big difference between the sexism of pop culture in the "old days" and the rampant misogyny you see today. They're not at all the same thing.


Of course not, just like feminism and woman empowerment are very different today, compared to the 1970s.

Look at the emancipatory 'Balls' ad below. Believe it or not, but it really says:
_“Just pop a few BALLS in your mouth and you’ll be ready for anything.”_ :shock: 

Now that's some powerful encouragement, don't you think?
Yeah, those were the days... :roll: 

- Jerome


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

OK let me try to respond to all this in one final post.

@Jerome. There are degrees to everything no? Was Mozart vulgar? Sure. Chaucer? Sure. Shakespeare? Sure Were any of them as vulgara as what we regualrly hear in the culture today? Of course not, it is silly to even entertain the ieea.

@ Guy. OK, I should have said pop/rock and then half of your argument goes away.
The fact remains that top 40, which is what most people listened to then and now:

In the 60’s you would find in the top 40 in the same year good songs by The Beatles, The Stones, Elvis Presley, Janis Joplin, Sly and the Family Stone, Frank Sinatra, Simon and Garfunkel, Ray Charles, and Jimi Hendrix, just for starters.

In the 70’s it could be Elton John, Billy Joel, Earth Wind and Fire, Aretha Franklin, Bruce Springsteen, Stevie Wonder, Paul Simon, James Taylor, Pink Floyd, Neil Young and David Bowie. Are you seriously going to say that in the same year you could put together a list of pop/rock acts with that kind of quality in the top 40? Happy is a cute song but it has the depth and gravitas roughly of Paul Simon’s “Feeling Groovy”, not “Bridge Over Troubled Water”, a top 40 hit BTW.

I don’t have problems with banal songs. Most pop/rock music is designed to be banal. It has always been so. I have problems with misogyny; problems with homphobia; problems with kids hearing things kids should not hear; problems with songs glorifying violence.

@ NYC Composer, ever the relativist. I don’t believe that musically you actually disagree, you just don’t want to say so because you are conceptually married to, “ my opinion is not worth more than anyone else’s” .

Anyway, I saw it on Facebook, thought it was spot on, and posted it here. If you disagree, you disgree.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 12, 2014)

> Happy is a cute song but it has the depth and gravitas roughly of



It's a Disney caricature version of real music. Corporations are not people.


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## KEnK (May 12, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:


> ...Led Zeppelin weren't a pop act...


Forgive me Guy, for taking one sentence out of context- but I don't agree.
I remember hearing an unedited version of Whole Lotta Love on AM radio, Black Dog too.
Even my Dad, a Blue Collar Red Neck Factory knew who they were (That shocked me actually)

They were completely in the mainstream forefront of culture at the time,
Definitely Pop- as was Hendrix.
Inagadavida w/ the entire drum solo was Pop.
As was Brubeck/Desmond's Take 5.

Pop was by definition something else back then-

k


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon May 12 said:


> That's why the lady is a tramp.



It was irony.


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon May 12 said:


> > Happy is a cute song but it has the depth and gravitas roughly of
> 
> 
> 
> It's a Disney caricature version of real music. Corporations are not people.



I like it a lot. I also liked "Build Me Up, Buttercup" a lot.


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> @ NYC Composer, ever the relativist. I don’t believe that musically you actually disagree, you just don’t want to say so because you are conceptually married to, “ my opinion is not worth more than anyone else’s” .



Shoulda said it with a smiley, EastWest Lurker. Go take a flying leap. How's that for relativism, you goofball?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > @ NYC Composer, ever the relativist. I don’t believe that musically you actually disagree, you just don’t want to say so because you are conceptually married to, “ my opinion is not worth more than anyone else’s” .
> ...



ROTFL! Luv ya, Larry.


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## Guy Rowland (May 13, 2014)

Kenk - Led Zep never released a single in the UK (presumably because they disapproved of them? I don't know). They may have been popular, but they sure weren't a pop act to be compared to the Bay City Rollers.

Jay A - We're still comparing apples and oranges. Happy is a true pop song, as disposable as pop always was. And as hard to create, incidentally - this bit not directed at you Jay, but I always get a kick out of people dissing something as super-easy - or indeed "corporate" - when it's something they could never have made in a thousand years. Back in the room - so to talk of it as lacking gravitas is like saying legs lack wheels. It's still fundamentally muddying the issue, like the Facebook post.

Many of the artists you named are highly dubious in terms of their widespread appreciation by younger / middle aged people today - Billy Joel? You're a product of your generation, and I'm a product of mine. Although I don't stop there, I genuinely prefer much 80s music to 60s and 70s (not universally of course, I love a lot of older music too). I never liked Led Zep and still don't, but instead I loved (and yes still love though they're last album was a grave cause for concern) U2. And of course we're right back to the old subjectivity of art argument. I wonder if this whole thread is just yet another retread of that very well worn groove and everything else is a red herring?

I hear great songs all the time - The Civil Wars, Chvrches and The Jezabels have nothing in common save that they have great songs which I guess is fundamentally why I like them all. Arcade Fire are an extraordinary force of nature. None of these are scoring hit after hit in the singles charts, but the pop charts have never told the whole story. There's an entire generation that will mourn and wail that in the UK's 1981 charts, Ultravox's Vienna never got to no1 because of Joe Dolce's Shaddap Your Face.

But perhaps we should be focusing on offence. It would interesting to look at the widespread misogyny / homophobia / violence, but it might be a tricky business. Gangsta Rap it seems has a lot to answer for as trends in urban music get subsumed into the mainstream in time. But Gangsta is what I see when I read Minaj's lyrics - its a dissin' song, apparently - and it ain't pretty. I don't think Gangsta is to blame for all of the issue, but I don't really know as I've never studied the origins. But imo that's a far more interesting discussion than the one we're currently having as the black hole of subjectivity / objectivity threatens to swallow yet another thread wholesale.


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## chrisr (May 13, 2014)

Thank you Guy for providing me with today's "mindless ditty that will be stuck in my head all day!" ... long day ahead.


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## ghostnote (May 13, 2014)

Dear Jay...:


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## chimuelo (May 13, 2014)

Boyz In The Hood....
My favorite line when Cuba Gooding says hey guys let the ladies eat first...., then Ice Cube says Hoes gotta eat too......., the girl replies why is everything Sluts and hoes with you, ...then Ice Cube says sorry bitch.... :mrgreen: 

Truthfully speaking, the songs we are hearing and the lyrics use to reflect the anger towards the CIA and Cops for flooding Watts with Narcotics used in the Contra affair during the Reagan administration, where blacks were wasting each other in large numbers, as we see in Chicago these days.
They wrote their music according to their frustrations, and these days the incentives for women to ditch their childs father is pretty much what angers the brothas' I work with.
This is reflected in their lyrics, and if you had a new DA coming after your paycheck in every state you move to get a job, you might understand better why underground (cash) rap and hip hop are valued so much amongst the younga brothas, and also why it's their only avenue as even EBT cards and Welfare benefits can be attached in most states, if not, the debt increases as the IRS adds interest.
You'd know this if you contracted bands or arranged gigs for DJs and also most artists use an alias as a name.
They're the new midnight ramblers. This was a black issue but quickly became a latino and white issues as well, so it does unite the youngsas suffering from the future of stick figured Julias where Daddy (Feds) incentivize a young girl to breed, then get cash and everything a working person is not entitled to.

What is really sad is the way this needed safety net has now dis incentivized those to work, as if they score a gig and try to climb out, all benefits are gone from disqualification.
A Great Society indeed....

And yes calling women such names is not cool, I understand the motivations though, even Bill Maher when calling Sarah Palin a C..nt....The war on women is definitely in full swing this year.

I'd love to see the back door party's at the white house where JayZ and Beyoncé, Snoop Dog hang out.
Wonder if they enjoy a good string quartet playing a waltz...


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## Guy Rowland (May 13, 2014)

Michael Chrostek @ Tue May 13 said:


> Dear Jay...:



Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Was that the original piece that someone then edited, or did someone add that to the original I wonder? How fascinating...


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## blougui (May 13, 2014)

> There's a (possibly) interesting debate to be had here about the history of offensiveness in pop lyrics and whether or not they are becoming normalised, but the FB meme just reads like lazy classic dogwhistle stuff. Sorry.



I do agree.

Must add I've never cared much about lyrics - oddly enough for the writter I am. Probably because english is not my native langage ? But it's pretty much the same for french songs (but I've never dig'em, listening to brittish pop music mostly and synth acts).
As far as charts/pop/rock songs are concerned, what has alway been paramount to me is Melody, arrangement, production(music in brief). sometimes, I found that lyrics added to the atmosphere. But I feel that not really understanding them in my "coming of age" because of the langage barriere helped forge my musical tastes, though these ones are moving lines at the exception of a few elements, like the forefront presence of electronic instruments.
Sonic wise, and thanx to tech progress, pop has never sound so good. Ok, let the loudness thing aside. 
And beware of self nostalgia... 8)


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## EastWest Lurker (May 13, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:


> Many of the artists you named are highly dubious in terms of their widespread appreciation by younger / middle aged people today - Billy Joel?



Appreciate him or not, the difference between musicians and others is, musicians generally when discussing an artist amongst themselves ask: Can he sing well? Can he play well? Can he write well?"

The answer with all three for Billy is "yes."

Whether a bunch of young people like or don't like him is irrelevant. That is for record labels and marketers to worry about. Good musicians will recognize him as one of them.

With a younger guy like John Legend, who does not make music I love personally, the same questions apply nonetheless and again the answer is"yes" for all three questions. 

So whether I like him or not is irrelevant. Good musicians will recognize him as one of them


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## ghostnote (May 13, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 13 said:


> Michael Chrostek @ Tue May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Jay...:
> ...



I have no idea, maybe it was Jay who edited it out 

The point is: Surprise Surprise, music serves a purpose! It's made to be catchy, to make you wanna dance... The lyrics aren't important. You can't compare led zeppelin with a nonsense pop song.


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## Guy Rowland (May 13, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> Appreciate him or not, the difference between musicians and others is, musicians generally when discussing an artist amongst themselves ask: Can he sing well? Can he play well? Can he write well?"
> 
> The answer with all three for Billy is "yes."



On that criteria, that would apply to around 15,000 of today's artists I'd say. The rest is preference.

Just, um, curious as to your thoughts on the full version of your original Facebook quote?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 13, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Appreciate him or not, the difference between musicians and others is, musicians generally when discussing an artist amongst themselves ask: Can he sing well? Can he play well? Can he write well?"
> ...



It sure as hell does not apply to Nikki

The quote in my first post is the full version of what I saw on Facebook without PrevenDisease.com's commentry, which is:.

"Much of the neurolinguistic programming (NLP) children and teenagers receive comes through the lyrics they hear in music and its repetition. NLP is one of the easiest and most widespread methods of persuasion, especially for those not conscious to its effect on the mind. Familiar things require less effort to process and that feeling of ease unconsciously signals a truth, also called cognitive fluency. Fluency allows effortless thinking. When thinking about something that is easy to process, we tend to reason quickly and effortlessly. This isn’t necessarily a good or a bad thing, but one standard effect of automatic thinking is that we tend to go for the default option. What some of the new generation of lyrics do is hit that part of the brain that operates below the level of conscious awareness which is quick, effortless and automatic. So if we are going to create simple lyrics in music, they must empowering not disempowering, because they have a significant effect on the generations that will inherit the world."

And as a whole, I totally agree with it. There are rap songs where the goal is to express anger at the circumstances the rapper sees around him. That is valid and a time honored tradition but calling girls and women bitches, hoes, etc. as a mainstream practice, as is happening in this manner, is despicable and if you contribute money to it by buying it then you are part of the problem (Not you, Guy, "you" in the larger sense.)


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## AC986 (May 13, 2014)

KEnK @ Mon May 12 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Led Zeppelin weren't a pop act...
> ...



You were shocked because your dad was a factory? Or you were shocked because he worked in a factory? Or shocked because your dad knew who Led Zeppelin were?

WTF is going on here Ken? I'm confused.


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## KEnK (May 13, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue May 13 said:


> KEnK @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:
> ...


Meant to say Dad was a "Factory Worker"... :roll: 
Dad never paid any attention to the music I listened to.
When I got LZ 1 (when it just came out) It was some of the weirdest music I had heard.
It was playing when Dad came home from work and he immediately balked,
"What is that? Led Zeppelin?" I was amazed that he knew them from their sound.

@ Guy-There's no reason to think that both LZ and The Bay City Roller aren't "Pop".
I'm almost as old as Jay- 
I can tell you that the meaning of Pop and Pop Culture were different things in the late 60's and early 70's compared to what they mean today.
It was in fact Disco that began to change what had been an "organic" evolving thing
(pop music) into something designed and manufactured corporately.
(Debating that would spur us onto more of an anthropological discussion.)

To those that think the op is "subjective", 
seems to me you are in denial of the the level of hateful misogyny that some Rap conveys. 
This is a entirely different degree of putting women down than the Sexism of The Old Days. 
(Though it is born of the same contempt)

While we're on the subject-
Ever wonder why there's so few Women Composers here?
Music is still a "Boys Club".

k


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## AC986 (May 13, 2014)

I remember still seeing Led Zeppelin at the Bath Festival in 1970 playing in basically a shack. Loud.


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## AC986 (May 13, 2014)

Or was it 1969? :shock: 

Shock can be contagious.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 13, 2014)

> The lyrics aren't important. You can't compare led zeppelin with a nonsense pop song



Yes. And also the music and the artist singing the lyrics has a lot to do with them. For example, Stevie Wonder can sing "yeah yeah groovy baby" in a song and it will still come of as pretty serious music!


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## NYC Composer (May 13, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue May 13 said:


> > The lyrics aren't important. You can't compare led zeppelin with a nonsense pop song
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. And also the music and the artist singing the lyrics has a lot to do with them. For example, Stevie Wonder can sing "yeah yeah groovy baby" in a song and it will still come of as pretty serious music!



Or it will come out as radio friendly pop music, which was never particularly portentous or serious as a whole.


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## Guy Rowland (May 13, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> "Much of the neurolinguistic programming (NLP) children and teenagers receive comes through the lyrics they hear in music and its repetition. NLP is one of the easiest and most widespread methods of persuasion, especially for those not conscious to its effect on the mind. Familiar things require less effort to process and that feeling of ease unconsciously signals a truth, also called cognitive fluency. Fluency allows effortless thinking. When thinking about something that is easy to process, we tend to reason quickly and effortlessly. This isn’t necessarily a good or a bad thing, but one standard effect of automatic thinking is that we tend to go for the default option. What some of the new generation of lyrics do is hit that part of the brain that operates below the level of conscious awareness which is quick, effortless and automatic. So if we are going to create simple lyrics in music, they must empowering not disempowering, because they have a significant effect on the generations that will inherit the world."



I must confess, I immediately got suspicious when reading that. A quick bit of Wikipedia later:



> The balance of scientific evidence reveals NLP to be a largely discredited pseudoscience. Scientific reviews show it contains numerous factual errors, and fails to produce the results asserted by proponents.



(with references - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurolingu ... rogramming )

Well, the full version of that Facebook thing makes a helluva lot more sense to me. I'd love to know if it was the original and got hijacked by some pseudoscientists, had context and original meaning removed in order to create a dogwhistle. The alternative is that someone spotted the logical flaws and pseudoscience and improved it of course. Interesting either way.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 13, 2014)

I don't know if it holds up scientifically but it passes the common sense and life "experience smell tests.


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## Guy Rowland (May 13, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> I don't know if it holds up scientifically but it passes the common sense and life "experience smell tests.



I disagree - it smacks of psychobabble generating more heat than light. By contrast, the full post smacks of common sense.

None of this, I hope you realise, makes me like Gangsta or its pop offshoots any. But I think it needs a much smarter approach than that first link gave.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 13, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if it holds up scientifically but it passes the common sense and life "experience smell tests.
> ...



there are a lot of things that were written off by some scientists years ago that are now more widely accepted.

Anyway, if it leads to even a slight deescalation of this horrible cultural spiral downward, I am OK with it.


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