# Piano players: how do you finger the diminished scale



## chillbot (Sep 4, 2017)

Can't seem to come up with anything that works well for fast runs for this.

I've heard this referred to as "the diminished scale", "the half/whole scale", "the altered scale with natural 13" or "lydian flat-7 altered". Who knows.

To be clear, I mean the 8-note scale that alternates half-step, whole-step:

C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C

There's only three scales... do you use the same fingering for the three regardless of the root or do you change fingering for all twelve roots?

I tend to have to use my thumb 3x per octave which slows me down. I know it's possible without but I'm even slower that way.

Please send help.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Sep 4, 2017)

1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 for that one.
Fingering will change according to root/scale variation

While the fingering for normal 7-note scales can be thought of as two parts eg. 1 2 3 + 1 2 3 4, 8 note scales are often best split into three.


----------



## SchnookyPants (Sep 4, 2017)

I'm sure jdiggety1 is more sensible and normal, but I taught myself to play that as:

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 5

or

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 5


But before trying this, consider the source. And don't attempt unless a spotter is present.

If I'm lazy, I just may go:

1 2 3 1 3 1 2 3 4


----------



## tack (Sep 4, 2017)

SchnookyPants said:


> 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 5


Pivoting from E on 4 to F# on 1? Very awkward for me.

Jdiggity1 listed the fingering I'd use (and would simply shift it over depending on the starting note).


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Sep 4, 2017)

Yeah. Thumb on a black note is never a great idea. Reserve those notes for your nimble fingers.


----------



## SchnookyPants (Sep 4, 2017)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Yeah. Thumb on a black note is never a great idea. Reserve those notes for your nimble fingers.



Oh, see - now I don't have to worry about that. I haven't seen nimble fingers in years.


----------



## Eric (Sep 4, 2017)

As for fingering, I like Jdiggity1's suggestion. Generally speaking, avoid playing black keys with your thumb (but then again, many of my practice exercises put my thumbs on black keys, my premise being to make them easier to hit when I need them).

As for scale name...

I'd avoid using the name of a diatonic scale (such as Lydian or Altered Dominant) to describe a symmetrical scale (like diminished or whole-tone). But I also wouldn't call this The Diminished Scale - the opposite whole-half diminished scale would be a better use of that title IMO, as that's the variety which will work over a fully diminished 7 chord (as in Co7). Half-whole diminished is the name I use for this one. It'll work over a Cm7b5 chord (also described as a C half-diminished 7th), and can also be a creative interpretation of C7 (contains the root, 3rd, 5th and 7th, as well as the b9, #9, and 13th).


----------



## chillbot (Sep 4, 2017)

Yup, I use jdog's fingerings. But I can't get as fast as I'd like... can do maybe ~130bpm 16th notes (R.H. only) and stall out whereas more traditional scales I can do much faster.

It's also different in using alternate fingerings going up or down... in F (just as an example) thumbs hit F, A, D, going up and F, A, C coming down. Am I doing this right? Or Bb (just as an example) you can go up using only 1, 2, 3 fingers but coming down makes more sense to use 4 on Bb.



Eric said:


> I'd avoid using the name of a diatonic scale (such as Lydian or Altered Dominant) to describe a symmetrical scale (like diminished or whole-tone). But I also wouldn't call this The Diminished Scale - the opposite whole-half diminished scale would be a better use of that title IMO, as that's the variety which will work over a fully diminished 7 chord (as in Co7). Half-whole diminished is the name I use for this one. It'll work over a Cm7b5 chord (also described as a C half-diminished 7th), and can also be a creative interpretation of C7 (contains the root, 3rd, 5th and 7th, as well as the b9, #9, and 13th).



I'm just going with what I've heard. Nomenclature can be confusing and misunderstood.

In this context I'm usually using it not on a diminished chord but on the dominant chord of a ii7-V7 resolving up a step, so let's call it iv7 - bVII7 - Imaj7. In G... Cm7 to F7 to Gmaj7 and you want to put the b9 on the F chord but because it's resolving to major you want to keep the natural 13. F7 b9 natural 13. Because you'd normally use lydian b7 on this chord... if you alter the 9 to a b9 you end up with this scale. Whatever you call it?


----------



## Eric (Sep 4, 2017)

Oops, thanks Chillbot, you're right about the Lydian part - I forgot to list the #11. And you're already using it over a dominant chord, very elegant, I like your progression.

Hmm, if you'd like a couple different diatonic options.... other scale choices which could work for your F7, if you want to play around with it... you could try playing F Lydian Dominant, then F half-whole dim, before resolving to Gmaj7. Or just F Lydian Dominant with a b9, I don't know the proper name for that scale, maybe someone else here does? Or F Altered Dominant, would give you the b9 and #11, but a b13 not a natural one.

As for speed, it's perfectly human of you to be able to play diatonic scales faster than diminished - you've had a lot more practice with those! But I would try practicing it the same going down as going up, with your thumb hitting the F, A, and D.

I'll also share with you an exercise my favorite teacher taught me, for getting inside of chord changes. Play this ascending pattern : 1 - 3 - 2 - 4 - 3 - 5 - 4 - 6 (etc), in eighth notes, following the changes. So, if we use Dorian for Cm7, F half-whole dim for F7, and if we say that Cm7 & F7 are each 1 measure in length, and Gmaj7 is 2 measures, then the pattern could look like : 
(Cm7) C Eb D F Eb G F A 
(F7) Gb A G# B A C B D
(Gmaj7) C E D F# E G F# A G B A C B D C E 
...

Then when you get to the top of your keyboard, play the same pattern descending. Keep flipping between up & down, so that the scale degrees keep changing. And if you like, come up with your own pattern(s). The goal of the exercise is to get comfortable playing melodically within the changes, and not having to restrict your melody in any way.


----------



## Smikes77 (Sep 5, 2017)

If you want it fluid don`t count it as 1 2 3, 1 2, 1 2 3, people tend to put emphasis on the 1 which can make it sound clumsy (the thumb is typically the culprit).


----------



## Rob (Sep 5, 2017)

for the C half/whole tone scale, 12313123 is standard... but for B scales, both half/whole or whole/half, I'd advice using 12341234 fingering...


----------



## givemenoughrope (Sep 5, 2017)

Rob said:


> for the C half/whole tone scale, 12313123 is standard... but for B scales, both half/whole or whole/half, I'd advice using 12341234 fingering...



Hmm...for C whole step half step (what's that called again?), C D Eb F Gb Ab A B, 12312312 feels best to me. Or am I missing something. Not to hijack....


----------



## Rob (Sep 5, 2017)

givemenoughrope said:


> Hmm...for C whole step half step (what's that called again?), C D Eb F Gb Ab A B, 12312312 feels best to me. Or am I missing something. Not to hijack....



I was talking C half/whole, the one the OP asked about... C Db Eb E F# G A Bb
Actually, for the other one you mention I suggest 234123412


----------



## bryla (Sep 5, 2017)

Try these two rules for scales:
1: thumb never on a White key
2: when going away from The body thumb takes The First White after a Black and The fingering is the same inwards.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Sep 5, 2017)

Rob said:


> I was talking C half/whole, the one the OP asked about... C Db Eb E F# G A Bb
> Actually, for the other one you mention I suggest 234123412



Ok...feels better. Did you mean 23412312? And if you keep going up the next octave you can't start on 2. I'm not sure how piano folks practice scales and runs but remember from 3rd grade doing 2 octaves, both hands, an octave apart.


----------



## Rob (Sep 5, 2017)

givemenoughrope said:


> Ok...feels better. Did you mean 23412312? And if you keep going up the next octave you can't start on 2. I'm not sure how piano folks practice scales and runs but remember from 3rd grade doing 2 octaves, both hands, an octave apart.



No no, I mean what I've written.
An octatonic scale, two fingering patterns of 4... it repeats every octave.
Pianists usually practice four octaves scales, parallel, contrary motion, in 3ds and 6ths
I even use scale fingerings that change over the octaves


----------



## givemenoughrope (Sep 5, 2017)

Rob said:


> No no, I mean what I've written.
> An octatonic scale, two fingering patterns of 4... it repeats every octave.
> Pianists usually practice four octaves scales, parallel, contrary motion, in 3ds and 6ths
> I also use scale fingering that change over the octaves



Sorry, I thought you meant the other one. Coffee didn't kick in today or something.


----------



## bjderganc (Sep 13, 2017)

@chillbot 
One thing you might want to try for increasing speed is "blocking." 
Play the notes of each position shift simultaneously and practice moving from one to the next.

So in the case of that scale, if you used 1-2-3|1-2|1-2-3 for the fingering, you'd have three blocking groups per octave. This would be three chord clusters: C-Db-Eb|E-F#|G-A-Bb.
Shifting your hands to the right positions is one of the tough things about the keyboard IMHO, and this exercise isolates that.

When you play the scale you could also think about playing from the wrist, just letting your fingers graze over the keys, v.s. thinking of each individual key press (like a typewriter).


----------



## synergy543 (Sep 13, 2017)

If you want to play really fast, you can use two hands. 4321, 1234. 
...or a sequencer.


----------

