# Gear: If I were wanting to start recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started?



## Mike Marino (Jun 20, 2011)

Currently I do not own ANY gear for recording (minus my DAW). I'd like to start looking at some simple recording gear (mics, etc) to record things like solo instruments. There's no specific instrument I'm looking at; I'm thinking general purpose at this point.

My questions are:

* What gear do I need to get this done with some level of quality (mics, mixers, etc)?
* How much should I expect to spend?

And example of what I'd like to do: record a solo cellist, then lay that live recording over some vi strings; those types of things.

Thanks,
Mike


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## midphase (Jun 20, 2011)

Do you have a decent audio interface? That's a good place to start. Some of them (particularly the m-Audio and Avid ones) come with mic preamps and essentially allow you to forego a mixer so that you can plug a mic directly into them and start recording.


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## José Herring (Jun 20, 2011)

First thing to ask is what budget are you looking at? There are many ways you can go and I've explored just about all of them, but before I post over the next three pages I need to know if you're looking at entry level budget or high end budget.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 20, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

@ Kays: No, I don't have an audio interface at this point.

@ Jose: Consider me at the entry level budget. $500-$750 (maybe)?

- Mike


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## José Herring (Jun 20, 2011)

Well, can't do much with that, but......

You need a decent audio interface with at least 1 analog input. At your budget range I'd consider Echo Audiofire 2:

http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/FireWire/AudioFire2/index.php (http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/FireW ... /index.php)

Then, you'll need a firewire card to put in your computer. Firewire 400 works better than FW 800 on PC. At least in the XP days. This little fact is very important. It needs to have a TI chipset:
http://www.amazon.com/Firewire-1394A-3PORT-2X1394B-1X1394A/dp/B000Z80JY4 (http://www.amazon.com/Firewire-1394A-3P ... B000Z80JY4)

Then you'll need a decent preamp for your mic with phantom power. These cost a lot of money, but there's a little trick I learned to get a good tube preamp from an a budget. Get a inexpensive Tube preamp and replace the tube with a high quality tube. So take this:

http://www.amazon.com/PreSonus-Tubepre-Single-Channel-Vacuum-Tube/dp/tags-on-product/B0002D0KG4 (http://www.amazon.com/PreSonus-Tubepre- ... B0002D0KG4)

And take the tube out of it and replace it with this:
http://www.amazon.com/Groove-Tubes-GT-12AX7-R3-Select-Preamp/dp/accessories/B003AYMEWK (http://www.amazon.com/Groove-Tubes-GT-1 ... B003AYMEWK)
really easy to replace kind of like changing a lightbulb.

Then, you'll need a mic. Good mics are expensive, but there are a few Chinese made mics that come close to high quality for cheap. This mic was designed by the guy who designed higher end Groove Tube mics and this little budget mic as a lot of the qualities of higher end mics:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dmi&field-keywords=sterling+audio&x=0&y=0 (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... io&amp;x=0&amp;y=0)

Of course you'll need a stand for the mic and probably a shockmount.

This is just the surface. Getting good recordings is an art and a science. But, this gear will get you started. The rest is trial and error and study.

best,

Jose

ps. Whatever you do, do not take the advice of somebody who says all you need is a decent audio interface. Most of those pre's suck and overload very easily and you'll be EQ'ing the heck out of any recording just to get it to sound normal. For just a few dollars more you can get recordings that rival some of the bigger names if you're smart and chose your equipment wisely.


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## midphase (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks Jose...nice way to say my advice is crap...meanwhile you're rather uninformed about the current state of audio interface pre's since some of them rival a-class pre's, and AVID included some nice Euphonix technology in their new interfaces which sounds really great.


I think all Mike needs in this case is an mBox Mini for $250 and something like an AKG Perception 120 for $100 or a Blue Spark for $200. Anything more at his stage would be overkill and that's really not what he's going for. As he grows into a higher bracket of quality, he can upgrade his gear to include tube preamps and higher end mics...but in the meantime and on his budgets I think he'd be just fine with my recommendation.


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

midphase @ Mon Jun 20 said:


> Thanks Jose...nice way to say my advice is crap...meanwhile you're rather uninformed about the current state of audio interface pre's since some of them rival a-class pre's, and AVID included some nice Euphonix technology in their new interfaces which sounds really great.
> .



You're saying that preamps attached to audio intefaces rival top notch pre's then mention he should get an mboxmini. Then in the same sentence call me uniformed? That's funny.

The current state of audio interfaces is the problem. Have you ever noticed that almost all of the best acoustic recordings were done in the past? There's a reason for that. When recording, nothing beats the analog thingy baby. The digital pre's attached to audio interfaces won't even come close. I mean they spec out ok, but that's about it. 

So my advice is to start thinking down the analog path from the start. It's not hard nor expensive. Plus you'll learn so much about making a recording rather than just getting audio into your daw.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

A good room.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

@ Kays: How does the Duet stack up? I think the intro model is $250 while the Duet II is $500 but comes with a built-in condenser mic.

@ Jose and Hans: I'm small potato fries right now with very little room in the house to do some of things you guys are describing. It's not bad advice; it just doesn't jive with what I can pull off.

If I had something that had a little portability to it couldn't I bring my computer (iMac) and a little set-up to something like a school auditorium to record a solo instrument, such as cello or violin or something?

Thanks,
Mike


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*



Mike Marino @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> @ Kays: How does the Duet stack up? I think the intro model is $250 while the Duet II is $500 but comes with a built-in condenser mic.
> 
> @ Jose and Hans: I'm small potato fries right now with very little room in the house to do some of things you guys are describing. It's not bad advice; it just doesn't jive with what I can pull off.
> 
> ...



No,no,no. For God's sake man. What I described is really portable and will lead to professional results. I know you're new but get started off on the right foot. You have to aspire to a higher standard than Rebecca Black. That little tiny built-in condsendser mic thingy isn't going to do you much good but to record scratch vocals or something. I mean if you're going to spend the time to get a player and find a space to record, then do your part and record it right. After all it's your music. Do you really think that a built in condenser attached to a half ass audio interface is going to lead to good results?

Doesn't make sense to me man. Why not spend the time to do it right rather than wasting $500 on doing something wrong?


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## Mike Marino (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

That's why I'm bringing it up now versus at the "look what I bought" stage.

I have a LOT of other stuff to buy before I purchase any recording equipment. I just thought I'd open a dialogue about it now so I can start seeing what's out there and do some research on the opinions I find in this thread and throughout the forum.

The Duet (originally) was brought to my attention through a friend of mine who thinks it would be a great starting point for an audio interface, simply for monitors. I had just recently read about the Duet II having that condenser mic in there and made me a little curious.

- Mike


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## midphase (Jun 21, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> You're saying that preamps attached to audio intefaces rival top notch pre's then mention he should get an mboxmini. Then in the same sentence call me uniformed? That's funny.



Have you heard them? No? They're better than what you might think they are. 

How about an Apogee Duet? Would that be more to your liking?

Either way...I don't think Mike wants to make Steely Dan quality recordings here...he's got $500 to spend which in my book means a $250 interface, and another $200 mic. I get the sense he's also looking for "simple" and you would have him not only going to find FW cards with specific chips, but also replacing PreSonus tubes with specialty GT ones....WTF???

You're a nice guy in person...you really are, but I find your general attitude on this thread to be kinda crappy...you could have easily just thrown in your $.002 and leave it at that rather than make it a point to insult what I said.


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## maraskandi (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

Ofcourse it is going to sound higher quality the higher quality your gear is, particularly if you really know how to use it properly. 

Ofcourse getting decent dedicated preamps is desireable.

Sometimes I record things with a portable stereo recording device and get good results with that too, so it all depends. Heck I used to record to minidisc some years ago and even that can be made to work, not that it would make the least bit of sense for a professional context. Even earlier I recorded using just the sound recorder in Windows, and well, I won't post the results for that one  but they have their distorted charm. :wink: 

Humble gear can make you stretch your creativity further, there's less to worry about so you have more energy left over to spend on making your stuff good. As long as your gear isn't right hindering you by delivering substandard results. 


firewire and a preamp is not a bad idea, 
equally an interface isn't a bad option, so you may have to start a list of pro's and con's to figure out what works for you and seems right.

You don't need a gold and diamond encrusted mic to succeed, because you can just get really good at the tools you have despite their limitations, and as you feel yourself requiring better quality along the way your monetary resources will have to stretch. 

A stereo recording device is really cheap, plugs into your computer through usb and you drag and drop your audio, and the device can fit in your pocket so when you are inspired, or hear something amazing, or feel inclined to make sounds or have a tune or idea in your head you can find the closest space with good reverb and set up there, in seconds. (and you can record at high sample rates)
That way you can record away from the studio in a decent space whenever you come across one, without lugging computers about!
And you'll then still have money for an interface.

RE-RE-EDIT: Pros and cons again:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec06/a ... zoomh4.htm


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## stonzthro (Jun 21, 2011)

Duet is a great option if your on mac. I'll admit I haven't read through all the slapping going on here so I hope I don't restate something already established. I've used one and it is something you'll not need to replace for a long time (so long as FW doesn't vanish in the foreseeable future). Then look into a Blue mic.

That would get you going for sure - best of luck!


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

midphase @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > You're saying that preamps attached to audio intefaces rival top notch pre's then mention he should get an mboxmini. Then in the same sentence call me uniformed? That's funny.
> ...



Geez, TJ's right. What the hell is happening to this place. Everybody has gotten so thin skinned. 

To be completely candid, I posted just immediately after reading the original post and didn't read what you posted until after. I didn't look down and perhaps I should have. But, I KNEW, somebody in this thread was going to say EXACTLY what you said, and I KNEW, that he would consider it and that he'd be heading down the wrong path, imo.

I've heard the audio interface preamps on many top interfaces, I even have some. No, I don't think they're that good. It took me about a year to figure out why. If I can spare him the pain then I'll try.

You're mbox mini suggestion imo doesn't even qualify as a decent audio interface much less have a decent preamp. The Apogee duet thingy, isn't much better in the pre department. Much better in the audio interface department. But, really not better than the Echo AudioFire series and the Echo stuff cost a lot less. So he would have enough left over to get a decent pre and mic. 

Built in pres tend to be Sterile, digital, lacking in depth, cold and strident( some of the better ones not that strident but still pretty harsh). Which is pretty much standard for those kinds of preamps.

All the suggestions I made are really pretty simple. He'll have to add a firewire card anyway unless he's getting a PCI interface or a USB one. Personally I wouldn't go with USB so that leaves PCI(e) or Firewire. If he goes firewire then adding the right card is pretty simple. Many have done it. I'm sure he's capable of it.

Replacing a tube is simple too. I think they'll even do it at guitar center for you. All you need is a screwdriver. 

He could go the interface preamp route, but the results will be disappointing. And since he has nothing to compare it to he'll never know why his recordings don't sound good.

He'll also need some sort of large diaphragm condenser mic and his idea of going with a little tiny condenser mic won't yield good results.

Your suggestion is convenient. Mine a tiny bit less so, but the difference in quality is worth the tiny itty bit of inconvenience.

But I'm not going to belabor the point beyond what I've already said. 

My apologies for offending you. It wasn't my intention.


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## midphase (Jun 21, 2011)

Here's a discussion you all should read:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end- ... match.html

mBox Mini (the new one) has the same exact Preamps and A/D as the bigger bros...just less of them.

Personally I use an RME UFX and I think the preamps sound great and clean...not harsh or digital. They don't color the sound as much as a tube pre, but sometimes that is not really desirable as much as a subjective choice.

The mBox also adds Pro Tools into the deal, and works well in standalone mode which IMHO makes it a bigger bang than the other two.

I personally would think that Mike would be well served with either the Duet or mBox at this stage in his recording career.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*



Mike Marino @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> @ Kays: How does the Duet stack up? I think the intro model is $250 while the Duet II is $500 but comes with a built-in condenser mic.
> 
> @ Jose and Hans: I'm small potato fries right now with very little room in the house to do some of things you guys are describing. It's not bad advice; it just doesn't jive with what I can pull off.



No problem man, everybody needs to start somewhere. :wink: 



> If I had something that had a little portability to it couldn't I bring my computer (iMac) and a little set-up to something like a school auditorium to record a solo instrument, such as cello or violin or something?



Certainly a good idea and much better than in an untreated bedroom.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 21, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> He'll also need some sort of large diaphragm condenser mic and his idea of going with a little tiny condenser mic won't yield good results.



EDIT:
If you mean condenser microphones built into devices like the ZOOM recorder then they are more suited for documentary recordings (although I hear good things from some of them).

However small microphones are not necessarily bad microphones. The world's most reputated microphone for orchestra is Neumann's M49 + M50 (USD 5000 and more). Despite its large housing it is a small condensor. Whenever you read DECCA tree it is either the M49/50 or Schoeps small condensors.

Mike, if you are looking for relative inexpensive microphones that are used and recommended for real world orchestra recordings then here are two names for you:

Beyerdynamic MC 930 / 910
Shure KSM 137 / 141


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > He'll also need some sort of large diaphragm condenser mic and his idea of going with a little tiny condenser mic won't yield good results.
> ...



According to who?

You're honestly going to tell me that the little condensers built into an audio interface is going to give a good recording? 

btw, I'm not talking about the standard small diaphragm condenser which would work rather well. He's talking about a little tiny condenser.

Why you guys getting so defensive?

Especially you hannes. I remember helping you quite a bit when you were having trouble with your recordings. Took a bit of time time out of my schedule too. And this is the response I get from you?

Fine then. Have at it. I hear Tascam sells a little hand held recorder. i'm sure he'll get top notch results from that. :roll: 

I've about had it here. Your response to my opinion Hannes is not only rude, but extremely uncalled for considering that I've actually helped you in the area.

Midphase and I had an honest misunderstanding. You saying I'm not qualified to give an opinion in an area that I do almost every day and get good results in, is a rude frontal assault to me personally.

Good day.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 21, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:
> ...



Jose, I must have missed the place where he talked about built in mics. I thought you were referring to small condenser mics per se. Which are actually superior in many situations. In the case you did not mean that at all (despite me seeing you insisting on LDC) scrap my comment and I need to excuse.

And yes, you helped (or rather tried to help) me at a point some years ago, thank you for that (again). Much has happened here since then btw.

It is completely new to me that you are actively recording on an every day base. Where can I hear your recordings?


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## Hannes_F (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

Just checked again and maybe a cause for misunderstanding here: The Apogee Duet II does not have any mics in it. Maybe that was what Mike and Jose were talking about, but they don't exist.

I was talking about small diaphragm condenser microphones (1/2 inch diaphragm diameter). The real deal SDC is starting from roughly EUR 1000 per piece upwards and comes from Schoeps, Sennheiser, DPA, Neumann (that is the category that I mostly use and swear on). Second best would be the options that I mentioned above (Beyerdynamic and Shure).


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## wst3 (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

I'm going to go against the grain here...

start with the microphone - no matter what your budget, figure on spending at least half of it on the microphone. Garbage in = Garbage out applies to software engineering AND recording.

I'm not suggesting a multi-thousand $ investment here, but I am suggesting that you need to get a good microphone. Some of the stuff being made in China is not all bad, but a lot of it is, and if you are asking these sorts of questions you may not be in a position to really judge microphones (not to mention it is near impossible to find a place to audition them anymore!)

There are brands out there that have consistently made good to great microphones for many years, while you might not get that "great vocal mic (sic) for $49), you really can't go too far wrong either.

My current favorite budget microphones are the KSM line from Shure. They have small and large diaphragm models, and they sound great. Which one you get depends a lot on your application, but if you don't really know what/how you'll be recording yet start with a cardiod or super-cardiod small capsule condensor microphone. It's about as close to 'universal' as you can get.

Other manufacturers that won't steer you wrong include Earthworks, ElectroVoice, Audio Technical, Audix, and AKG. As a rule stay away from their really cheap models. And while it isn't glamorous, and it certainly is recognizable, a Shure SM-57 can do a lot! Another brand worth considering, even if they don't have the history, is Mohave Audio.

Next up, you need a good microphone preamplifier. Do not bother trying to find a 'channel strip' with all the bells and whistles - at this stage you are paying for stuff you really do not need, and besides, it's a good learning exercise to use microphone positioning to solve most of the equalization and compression problems!

I'd suggest getting a two channel model because sooner or later you are going to want to record two channels. And stick to preamplifiers that are neutral, or mostly neutral.

Contradicting myself... the best inexpensive preamplifer I've ever used is the Grace Model 101. It isn't, strictly speaking, cheap, but it is amazing. If that's out of reach then I'd start looking at used gear. Most of the stuff I've seen below this price point is far from neutral. A couple of great preamplifiers available used include the Presonus MP20 (used they seem to go for around $400, but it is two channels) and the Symetrix SX-202. This was a real sleeper, and over the years it has developed a sort of cult following, but you can still get one used for around $120. For another $20 in parts and a couple of evenings you can make it even better!

Then you need to look for a decent A/D converter. Benchmark Media makes my current favorite reasonably priced converter, but I also like the M-Audio/Midiman Flying Cow. 

(Full Disclosure - I designed the analog stages for the Flying Cow, but like many designers, I don't always use the gear I design because I know about all the compromises that were made<G>, but in this case I do use them, I have two of them in my rack.)

The bad news is that it has only AES and S/P-DIF outputs, so you might STILL need a computer interface<G>! UGH, this stuff is a pain eh?

There are a few PCI/PCI-e and Firewire and USB to S/P-DIF or AES interfaces out there. These are worth checking out because they provide you with some additional flexibility.

Another device worth checking out (and I had nothing to do with the design) is the little Transit USB A/D and D/A converter. It's tiny, and inexpensive and it sounds pretty good. I keep one in my laptop bag for measurements and recording. I hate the stupid connectors, but other than that it's pretty cool. Did I mention it's under $100?

The more you split the duties the more flexible your rig. I think that's an important consideration! And if you buy smart you'll be able to re-use all this stuff for a very long time, even after you upgrade some of the pieces.

And just as a yardstick, if I were putting together a cost-is-no-object recording rig for solo instruments my current choices would be:
(2) Schoeps CMC6/MK41 microphones - figure about $2K a piece.
(1) Bock - roughly $1200 most anywhere
(2) Grace m101 - figure about $500/channel
(1) Benchmark ADC1/USB - around $1700 I think, been a while since I checked.

OK, nowhere near "cost is no object" - but you get the idea.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2011)

I definitely agree with wst: the thing that makes the biggest difference is the mic. And for cello in this context - if I don't have a Royer ribbon mic - I like small-diaphragm condenser mics, ones that are "accurate" rather than character mics with an opinion.

You know how cheap mics are so terrible? Well, I have a pair of Oktava MK019 (I think that's the number - the cardioid ones) that sound fab.

But I cheat and run them through really great outboard channels (I sold everything a few years ago to buy two Millennia Media STT-1s).


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## wst3 (Jun 21, 2011)

Hard to beat Millenia Media - they are amongst the best preamplifiers I've ever used.

And I did not mean to dis ALL inexpensive microphones. The Oktava MK019 and a couple others are (or were) really good microphones, but they are the exception to the rule, and the problem is, most folks who are just starting out do not have the ears or experience to make that call.

So, it is far safer for someone who is buying their first microphone(s) to buy something that is safe!

Oh, and yeah, a Royer or two would be a good choice too... but they are at another price point, which is why I mentioned Mojave.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks for all of the information guys! I really appreciate it! There are a lot of things to consider. Now, it's homework time, lol!

Thanks again!

-Mike


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2011)

No question, cheap mics are usually cheap for a reason. They also tend to be inconsistent. I got lucky and got a stereo pair of Oktavas that are matched to within 1/2 a dB.


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## rgames (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

OK - here's my input, assuming you don't buy absolute bottom-dollar crap components:

99% of the sound you get is determined by the musicians, the room, and your chops as a recording engineer, in that order.

The other 1% is determined by the mic, pre-amp, and A/D converter.

So, do the math....

You can get a very good mic and pre-amp for $500: $250 for the mic and $250 for the pre-amp. Best bet is to buy them used on eBay. Modern equipment is so good that it really is hard to justify large investments for basic recording setups.

So if you have $1000 to spend, spend $250 on mic, $250 on pre-amp, and $500 on acoustic treatment.

And once everyone starts telling you that's not the case, ask them to send you A/B comparisons. Then send them to me, because I'm still looking for proof to the contrary 

I have 5 or 6 mics and a couple of preamps, all ranging from $200 each to $1500 each. Sure, each sounds *slightly* different. But I can't say one is better or worse - they're just different. And I can't convince myself that subtle EQ tweaks won't make one sound like the other.

Here's the proof: go look at the frequency response plots of a bunch of mic's. They differ by what, maybe 1 or 2 dB? Now measure the frequency response of your live room. Is it flat to within 1 dB? If not (HIGHLY LIKELY NOT EVEN CLOSE), can you guess which element is dominating the sound you record?

Finally - please, I *implore* you, do not spend money on high-dollar cables. Especially digital cables. I just can't live knowing that type of behavior exists in the world.

rgames


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## wst3 (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*



rgames @ Wed Jun 22 said:


> OK - here's my input, assuming you don't buy absolute bottom-dollar crap components:
> 
> 99% of the sound you get is determined by the musicians, the room, and your chops as a recording engineer, in that order.
> 
> ...



A fair assessment, and I may have misunderstood the original question.

If the OP is talking about recording exclusively in their own space then the acosutical treatment is by far and away the second most important thing (the performer and the instrument being - I believe - tied for first). And yes, that's the smart place to spend the money!

IF, on the other hand the question is about a basic recording rig that will be used for both recording in their own space and in other spaces then I think I'll stick with my answer.



rgames said:


> You can get a very good mic and pre-amp for $500: $250 for the mic and $250 for the pre-amp. Best bet is to buy them used on eBay. Modern equipment is so good that it really is hard to justify large investments for basic recording setups.



Not sure I agree with the second part of your premise - a good microphone will last for a lifetime, and is worth the investment. But that doesn't mean you have to start there, and there are a bunch of good microphones and preamplifiers available for reasonable prices on eBay on any given day. That, and some of the 'modern' gear that is made off shore is not really all that good!



rgames said:


> So if you have $1000 to spend, spend $250 on mic, $250 on pre-amp, and $500 on acoustic treatment.



If you have a fixed space where you work regularly this is really good advice! I'd only add that if you really want your $500 acoustical treatment budget to work you'll need to spend some of that on advice from a qualified acoustician!!!



rgames said:


> And once everyone starts telling you that's not the case, ask them to send you A/B comparisons. Then send them to me, because I'm still looking for proof to the contrary



I don't know what you mean, exactly, but that, but on a proper monitoring system I can hear differences between microphones and preamplifiers quite easily. Even on mediocre monitoring systems some differences are quite audible.



rgames said:


> I have 5 or 6 mics and a couple of preamps, all ranging from $200 each to $1500 each. Sure, each sounds *slightly* different. But I can't say one is better or worse - they're just different.



Oh absolutely! I seldom describe my microphones (I probably have a couple dozen from the days when I owned a 'real' studio<G>) as better or worse - mostly I describe them as better suited for a specific application. And it is a bit of a luxury to have several to choose from. I'd make do with fewer if I had to. I have run across some real dogs though - they are out there!



rgames said:


> And I can't convince myself that subtle EQ tweaks won't make one sound like the other.


It is possible, sometimes, to use equalizers to get one microphone to sound like another, but why would you? And this may have something to do with my age, but in general I try to avoid equalizers and compressors entirely, preferring to get the sound I want through microphone placement and, to a lesser degree, selection.



rgames said:


> Here's the proof: go look at the frequency response plots of a bunch of mic's. They differ by what, maybe 1 or 2 dB? Now measure the frequency response of your live room. Is it flat to within 1 dB? If not (HIGHLY LIKELY NOT EVEN CLOSE), can you guess which element is dominating the sound you record?



Well the amplitude vs frequency plots for several of my microphones actually display real, audible differences. BUT, that's really not the point. The sad fact is we still do not have measurements that accurately and reliably predict what a microphone, or amplifier, or anything else for that matter will sound like. We just don't know how to do it yet.



rgames said:


> Finally - please, I *implore* you, do not spend money on high-dollar cables. Especially digital cables. I just can't live knowing that type of behavior exists in the world.



On this we are 100% in agreement. It makes me sad to see all the snake oil that is peddled, and even sadder to realize that these folks wouldn't be selling $300 power cords if people were not buying them! UGH! And I hope karma works<G>!

I really do not wish to seem argumentative, but it has been my experience that the selection of gear really does make a difference, and I like to see folks that are just starting out avoid the "pay twice" syndrome! (Not that I EVER did that!!!)

One last point - I have amongst my less used microphones an older AKG C-414, one with the brass capsule everyone seems to love so much. I keep it around mostly for it's bi-directional pattern, because I like it, but as a main microphone on an instrument or voice - well, I used to think it was useless. I had other microphones I preferred.

A couple years ago (geez time flies) I was recording a young girl and I did the usual shootout, with the C-414, a C12A, a TLM-193, a KSM-32, and a Baby Bottle all set up on stands. I asked her to sing a few bars into each one. I was quite ready to tear down all but the TLM-193, but for whatever reason the C-414 just LOVED her voice, and vica-versa. So I try to be a bit more open minded these days!!!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2011)

Well, I have no compunctions about being argumentative with rgames and I can't agree with most of his post. 



> So if you have $1000 to spend, spend $250 on mic, $250 on pre-amp, and $500 on acoustic treatment.



I'd save the $500 and find a good place to record. If I were going to treat my room I'd do it using improvised materials (if I were on a $1000 budget).

And of course the performance makes the biggest difference. Nobody past kindergarten needs to be told that.

Also, +1 to wst's comment about the freq responses of mics. If they were recording only one frequency at one amplitude level and one position in their polar pattern, sure you could just look at that. But if it were that simple there would be only one mic on the market, and then you could use mic modeling software to create any mic you wanted.


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## wst3 (Jun 22, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 22 said:


> If they were recording only one frequency at one amplitude level and one position in their polar pattern, sure you could just look at that.


Indeed, you hit the nail squarely, it is the off-axis behavior that differentiates microphones, or rather that is probably one of the most important factors. And before people jump up and down - the reason that off-axis response is so important is that it is almost impossible to isolate a source to the axis, room reflections come in off-axis and add quite a bit to a recording.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> But if it were that simple there would be only one mic on the market, and then you could use mic modeling software to create any mic you wanted.



Yeah - still waiting for that plug-in! Ever play with the Antares Mic Modeler? I tried the demo and I thought it was fascinating. I don't think it made my SM-57 sound like an 251, but I did come up with some cool sounds!


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## Mike Marino (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

My "studio/recording room" is the corner of my kitchen as we simply don't have space to have things elsewhere in the house without invading the kids' rooms.

Being that I'm in the kitchen I'm not really willing to add any acoustic treatment to the room. Those two things alone might be big disqualifiers for doing anything with recording for now.

(This is also why I'm preferring headphones over monitors right now's a whole other subject.)

- Mike


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## maraskandi (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

OK, that's why I think its good to take small steps and not blow money on random stuff that is biting off too much to chew, it's tricky, listen to all the other guys good advice and gd luck with your research and I'm sure you'll figure out the right thing for you.

Aside:
Imagining myself as you, in your kitchen, I could see/hear myself wanting a portable capacity so I can go out to amazing spaces and have great recording sessions in the best sounding spaces my locality has to offer.

As a potential reference for you I happen to have posted a composition here, which is all VI except for the live cello which I recorded in my kitchen, yes, I'm not even kidding! 

I don't claim to be an authority on recording nor do I advocate kitchen sessions for professional results per se, but the one I've done was for a paid project and nobody's complained to me that the cello sounded crap, fortunately. 

I used an old secondhand focusrite octopre preamp, a Shure SM-57 and an AKG D112 kickdrum microphone... - no mic sic there wst3, though perhaps my use of a/an is questionable, I'm not gonna google it now though lol  - 

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21704

So we have there a far from ideal recording space, a non expert recording engineer, decent standard mics and perhaps one of the better lower-tier preamps. (you'd not have to get something like that, paying for a whole 8 channels of preamp, as you wouldn't need them i.e drums or ensembles, and you'd have to have 8 mics to use it all at once anyway!)


I hope that's of even the slightest help to you in your quest for clarity.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Equipment: If I were wanting begin recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendatio*

Thanks Patrick. I really appreciate the example. It is a great help to me!

- Mike


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## Hannes_F (Jun 22, 2011)

Patrick, that is a very good way to start. Own practical experience teach you much better what you can do and what not with the conditions you have. Also it will help immensely to put advice and opinions into context.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 23, 2011)

*Re: Gear: If I were wanting to start recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendations*

Yes, Patrick's example does show me what's possible with a space similar to what I have to work with. I also agree, Hannes.

- Mike


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 23, 2011)

> Ever play with the Antares Mic Modeler?



Yeah, it's great. Actually, I used the mic modeling feature inside...was it inside AutoTune first, and then they saw how much people liked it and sold it separately? It doesn't make sense that it would have been AT, but it was an extra feature inside a different plug-in.

The distortion processes inside the Metric Halo box are pretty nice too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 23, 2011)

Note that "acoustic treatment" doesn't have to be permanent - in fact, given a choice you're better off with things you can move around, especially if you're recording in your kitchen.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 23, 2011)

Aahhhh. Good point, Nick. Didn't think of that! Great insight there!

- Mike


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## wst3 (Jun 23, 2011)

some random (probably meandering) thoughts on acoustical treatments for recording spaces (as opposed to critical listening spaces - that's a whole nother topic!).

First, Nick's suggestion to keep things movable is spot on! Even in a well treated, professional designed studio you will find lots and lots of gobos (for the squints out there, in this case a gobo is just a portable flat that one can use to isolate or otherwise treat a microphone position.)

When I design a recording space I focus on isolation first and foremost. It's really important, and it will impact any acoustical decisions down the road. (Think about it, if you build the walls with really high transmission loss (read good isolation) then you are keeping the energy in the room. Yeah, it really is that simple.

Anyway, it is fairly easy to change a room from lively to dead. If you start with a dead room you can put up panels that are lively, if you start with a live room you can add absorptive panels.

So in terms of the quality of the room sound you really aren't limited to one or the other. For reasons that probably have no real foundation other than pragmatic building practices, most folks start with a fairly live room, wood paneling, or maybe sheetrock (although sheetrock is absorptive), or, if you have the budget, rock or faux rock. 

I've even worked in one space that was all cinder block walls, cement floor, and cement deck overhead. That was actually a bit difficult to treat for individual projects, but dang it was quiet in there!

But I digress...

In the case of a person using existing spaces in their home I generally recommend that they not make huge changes to the existing spaces. If you are working in a kitchen it is highly likely that the space is lively. So you need to provide some way to add absorption, as a way to color the sound, and possibly as a last ditch effort to minimize noise coming in (or going out!)

If you are at all handy with power tools you can build some pretty neat gobos from dimensional lumber, rigid insulation, and fabric. If that sounds like too much work consider using heavy moving blankets hung on mic stands, or even the walls. Moving blankets can also be used on the floor, but I've never had much luck with that trick - I prefer really thick carpet on really thick backing.

One important consideration is to avoid overdoing it. If you are deadening the floor leave the ceiling alone. If you are deadening the north and south walls leave east and west alone, or sometimes just west.

The gobos can also be used to provide isolation between instruments when you move from recording a solo performer to recording two or more.

The other thing, and it's becoming more popular if you believe the trade rags, is to take advantage of the natural spaces in your home. In my previous place (a run of the mill townhouse) I had an unusually large master bathroom. I ended up running mic lines from the basement (where I had built the studio) to the second floor so I could record things in there. I recorded vocals, and guitar amplifiers. My favorite trick was to put the amplifier - usually a small combo - in the tub, leaning back a little bit. Then I'd put the microphone in the sweet spot that worked for that particular project. Then I'd shut the door, sit on the bed, and play! I could wail away without damaging my ears. I lost the sound of the loudspeaker and strings interacting, but it still worked nicely.

Most kitchens that I am familiar with would probably work really well for the same thing. I'd need something to block off major appliances (refrigerators make a lot of noise, usually when you want it least!) In that case a simple sheet of plywood mounted on stands would usually do the trick, maybe with an insulation backing, maybe not. It's cheaper to unplug it - until you forget to plug it back in and ruin a lot of food, which has the additional expense of explaining that to your spouse/significant other/roomate(s)!

It's all do-able, and if you go with portable treatments you can take them with you on location recording gigs, or to other spaces you like, or your really cool studio you plan to build someday!


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## Mike Marino (Jun 23, 2011)

WST3: Thanks for all of that great info! I really appreciate you taking the time to go into such detail. You really have my mind going on all of this stuff.


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## maraskandi (Jun 23, 2011)

*Re: Gear: If I were wanting to start recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendations*

For reference about my "flying-by-the-seat-of-my-pants room treatment", the kitchen is open plan into the livingroom where the cellist sat, glassfronted bookcases on one side, workstation on the other, (the Brits are very fond of carpeted floors for some reason, though ofcourse the kitchen is wooden parquet). 

So, carpeted floor and the glass bookcase/CD unit thing has a heavy blanket draped in front of it. So that seems to do well. And you can remove carpets and heavy blankets when the need arises


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## Markus S (Jun 24, 2011)

*Re: Gear: If I were wanting to start recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendations*

Good "bang for the buck" mics are from Shure, so have a look at their large condenser microphones (not s(h)ure what the model is called). Good "bang for the buck" audio cards are Audiophile from M-audio, and Preamp, not quite sure here, but maybe a small mixing table with phantom power would be a good start (Mackie, maybe). I think with these products you are getting away with 500,00-700,00$$ and could do some decent recordings to start with.


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## MrHighlandPark (Jun 25, 2011)

*Re: Gear: If I were wanting to start recording solo instruments, what gear might I need to get started? Recommendations*

I have an apogee duet and SM58. No acoustic treatment.

For me, this has been plenty for me to get started down the path of learning what I don't know. I've learned that for certain instruments that can be close mic'd - like vocals, and trumpet with harmon mute - the room doesn't come into play much at all and I can get a satisfactory sound. When I want a pop or salsa trumpet sound, I can stand a foot back from the mic and still do ok. By no means ideal, but I've used it professionally with no complaints.

It's probably akin to starting out with EW Gold, or VSL SE for an orchestral library. Can't use either to score the next Batman movie, but plenty good enough to start learning the tricks of the trade.

o=<


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