# Real Talk On Sample Modeling Brass



## storyteller (Feb 14, 2018)

Hey guys & gals -

I’m in need of expanding my brass palette. I’ve been looking at Sample Modeling brass and could really appreciate real user feedback. Mixing doesn’t scare me. Programming passages doesn’t bother me. My questions are mostly pertaining to actual results. I've noticed that people seem to get enthusiastic about their brass in waves, then it dies down, then it rises again. For example, Blakus used it in his original templates, but now it seems like he has other libraries that appear in his template. Is it one of those types of libraries that is initially better than what you are dealing with, and then you discover it still isn't quite what you need? Or is it possible to do everything with it? I'm a big fan of playable effect articulations and such too. It seems those have to be programmed in Sample Modeling though? Can't find any real detail on that.

Also - I am very well aware of the upcoming CSB and the nuances/pros/cons of the current libraries (well, except for Century Brass which is still new and I am curious about that one too... the centered sections concept is not ideal, but I like the sound I think...), so no need to comment about those (unless you have some Century Brass war stories already). This is purely about Sample Modeling brass and user experience. 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## JohnG (Feb 14, 2018)

From the user demos and official demos I've heard, Sample Modeling does some things well and some thing a lot less well. I don't own it, so I am basing comments on the demos.

*Good: *The "performance" character is very good, maybe the best; you can really hear the musician "play" the notes, with bends, articulations, and so on. It can have personality that often escapes a traditional sampled instrument.

*Less Good:* The "it sounds like a real instrument" attribute falls far short, to my ears. I am not at all convinced I'm listening to a trumpet, for example.

But maybe "so what?"

If you are writing something that is soloistic, and especially if that composition is jazz or has a vibe like that, then Sample Modeling might be perfect. It may not sound like a genuine acoustic instrument, but that's not necessarily what we always want. Sometimes, instead, we are looking for expressiveness and in that area Sample Modeling does quite well.


----------



## reddognoyz (Feb 14, 2018)

SM brass is bone dry. It is also dead as a door nail. by that I mean no "performance" in the sample. I use a breath controller and it's great with SM brass. It will pretty much do what it's told if it's something the instrument is capable of. Sitting it in an orchestral setting isn't super hard, but it need to be done. Sometimes a "performed" vi will do a better job of sounding orchestrally brass like, if that makes any sense. I use both flavors and mix and match. The one thing about the SM brass is that you can really play in a performance, in fact you have to.....or, as I mentioned earlier, it's as dead as a door nail. Flat and lifeless. I find all of the orchestral libraries harder to play and it's more about programming them and kind of sticking to what you can do with the performance that's already there.


----------



## fixxer49 (Feb 14, 2018)

JohnG said:


> *Less Good:* The "it sounds like a real instrument" attribute falls far short, to my ears. I am not at all convinced I'm listening to a trumpet, for example.


i own it, and use it a fair bit. funnily, i just used the solo trumpet in a spot and it pretty much made the track.
i'll tell you from experience - it takes some effort to get a good, realistic sound out of this thing. i usually have to place it in a space, via altiverb, and do some eq'ing to provide that believable sense of distance that we're used to hearing. there is some programming required, after-the-fact, to take advantage of a very agile set of expressive keyswitches. But, you are right - it's a bit of a painful [sonic] learning curve at first.


----------



## LHall (Feb 14, 2018)

If you want to play parts as different individuals playing together to form a section, I doubt that you can beat SM's brass. I use them every day both in small and large jazz settings and orchestral settings as well. Yes, they take a little work to put them in a room, etc. But the work is worth it if you want to breathe any life into a performance.


----------



## Henu (Feb 14, 2018)

What Lhall said. I also use the section at work in pretty much every single project which needs jazzy horns.


----------



## LHall (Feb 14, 2018)

If you want to hear SM brass in action a bit, go to my website and listen to Masquerade. All brass and winds are SM.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 14, 2018)

Pro: 
Really natural sound, behavior, and playability.
Different solo instruments to combine any section sizes.
Control over vibrato, sound, transition time...
Complete set of mutes.
Usable in very different styles (jazz or classical solo, combo, big band, pop horns, brass band, orchestral brass...)

Con: 
You have to play it. Needs time to practise. Breath- or Windcontroller helps a lot!
Unisono sounds convincing only when every single voice is played separate and non quantized.
Dry (but has early reflections included).
Possible but not easy to simulate 'round robins' for short notes by CC-movement.

You can learn to play it or you get lost in editing. Brass-Ensemble libraries like Adventure Brass or Caspian are less detailed and sound only convincing in their styles. But then those libraries are much faster to use. I think that's the main reason for users to switch from SM.


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 14, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Con:
> You have to play it. Needs time to practise. Breath- or Windcontroller helps a lot!
> Unisono sounds convincing only when every single voice is played separate and non quantized.
> Dry (but has early reflections included).
> Possible but not easy to simulate 'round robins' for short notes by CC-movement.


Con???
Yeah, you can rent a taxi instead of driving yourself. But then the taxi driver determines how he drives, not you! 
I think SM is a milestone in the VST world!


----------



## PerryD (Feb 14, 2018)

As a "real" trumpet player, I find the SM trumpet to be the best virtual trumpet available. I _have_ to use a breath controller for best results. I use some other brass libraries for polyphonic playing but no other brass library responds so well to player input.


----------



## pmcrockett (Feb 14, 2018)

As far as general buzz over the years goes, SM brass is one of the virtual instruments for which I've heard the greatest number of favorable vs. unfavorable opinions. It's up there with Omnisphere in that regard.


----------



## jvsax (Feb 14, 2018)

I use a WX-5 with the SM brass, and do a lot of post-editing on the breath curves and pitch curves, then add shakes, etc. For the type of music I write the results are incredibly realistic. On one particular tune I had a live trumpet reference track, and I used the WX-5 and SM trumpet and matched the breath and pitch curves phrase by phrase, and then used a curve-matching EQ between the tracks. The resulting track was sooooooo close to matching the live track.


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 14, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> Con???
> Yeah, you can rent a taxi instead of driving yourself. But then the taxi driver determines how he drives, not you!
> I think SM is a milestone in the VST world!



I see it as both a pro and a con depending on context. It's true that the instrument is so expressive that you can get the exact performance you want out of it. In that regard, SM instruments are amazing, and just about unmatched. On the other hand, this takes a lot of time to master, and takes a lot of time to perform each individual part (this is especially true if you don't have a wind controller). If you're on a tight deadline (I just finished up a project where I had to complete ~20 mins of music in a day), there are libraries out there that will get you an acceptable sound in much less time and with much less effort. 

If you're willing to put in the time and effort to get the perfect performance, SM will take you very far. Though I still don't think I've heard an SM Brass only piece that has the same level of bombastic as say, Hollywood Brass or Caspian. SM still tends to sound a little "thin" when you want to push out those big bwams or screaming lines and such. Perhaps I've just not heard enough SM brass...


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 14, 2018)

Also, as a side effect of being so knowledgeable about commercial sample libraries, I can ALWAYS pick out the SM Trumpet sound in a piece of music. The average person would never even question it, but it's so distinct that it just takes me out. Just a curse of living the sample life I suppose.


----------



## misterfincher23 (Feb 15, 2018)

I agree that the sound of SM Brass is a little bit to thin for Epic stuff. But with the possibility to increase or decrease the individual harmonics its easy to achieve that tone.


----------



## Hanu_H (Feb 15, 2018)

I love the sound of SM Brass and the playability is amazing. It's not my first choice for epic brass, but it can do it, CineBrass just gives me better results faster in that area. Perfect for classical music and lyrical solo writing. And still the best for pop and jazzy stuff. I don't have hard a time to mixing them or placing them on the virtual stage. I guess it's one of those libraries where you have to go the extra mile for making it sound alive. I think it needs a bit more experienced user than many other libraries. But it's also my go to sketching tool for brass melodies, you can throw any melody at it and it just works.

-Hannes


----------



## storyteller (Feb 15, 2018)

Thanks for all of the replies so far.  I wish I could give more likes than just one per reply. It really has been a big help to hear some real-world feedback. A couple more questions (if you don’t mind).

It was said earlier that round robins are difficult to manage. Can you elaborate? I’d hate to have the shotgun effect crop up all of the time.
I’m not a wind player (I play guitar, piano, etc), so I’ve never felt inclined to use a breath controller. I have leap motion and the usual assortment of faders and knob controllers. Is a breath controller necessary for it, or would it be like learning a new instrument since I am not a wind player?
How difficult is it to get a “fanfare” sound (fanfare shorts, etc) versus a more normal style?
Regarding FX articulations.... how difficult are they to play/program? Wahwahs, rips, etc.
It is certainly sounding like this should be my next addition. The questions are coming more from a standpoint of “ramp-up/implementation time” for my workflow and to know what I should expect stepping into it.


----------



## ricoderks (Feb 15, 2018)

LHall said:


> If you want to hear SM brass in action a bit, go to my website and listen to Masquerade. All brass and winds are SM.


Wow nice!


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 15, 2018)

I own the brass, but rarely use them. I don't play a wind controller and the sound takes too much finessing to make it something I like because it is pretty thin. i hate that I have to give it a burst of cc11 every time.

i am thinking of selling it actually.


----------



## re-peat (Feb 15, 2018)

Storyteller,

There isn’t any shotgun effect with SM instruments, provided you don’t repeat the same short note any number of times with the exact same velocity and the exact same controller settings. In fact, phrases of short repeated notes are often much more convincing with instruments from the SM series than with round robin samples, because the welcome variety you get from round robins is frequently also a cause for illogical inconsistencies in timbre resulting in an incoherent performance. Not so with Sample Modeling.
(Important to understand with these instruments, is the impact that note velocity and cc#11 have on the timbre. A low velocity note with a high cc#11 value sounds entirely different from a short note with a higher velocity and a lower cc#11 value. Knowing when to use which type of note, or any variant in between, makes all the difference in phrases of repeated short notes.)

A breath controller is no doubt a great tool to have in combination with the SM instruments — it can speed up the creation and recording of a musically convincing performance dramatically — but it’s certainly not essential that you work with one to get good results. I never have, and I can get by perfectly well by editing and/or drawing all the required controller data in my DAW.
It helps though if you can find some way of inputting the most important controller data (often: cc#11) during the recording of a take, if only because it makes for a much more authentic performing experience. (And it’s much easier to edit a performance that’s already pretty solid in its rough contours to begin with, than to try and inject life from scratch in a completely flat and dead performance.)

The big, bold red-hot brassy statement isn’t SM’s forte, in my opinion. It can be done (and some people have come up with remarkably good results), but it’s certainly not a sound that comes naturally to this software, I find, and a good brass library will usually give you quicker, if not more convincing results.
To my ears, SM is at its best — and unbeatably so — between ppp and forte. Above forte, SM quickly lacks meat, punch and bite to its timbre. But again, with some exercise and effort (and perhaps the cunning use of some additional processing like distortion and exciters), a surprisingly convincing fff sound should be within your reach too.
My music rarely goes there, so I don’t have much experience with creating a believable SM fanfare sound, but on the one or two occasions that I have tried it, I found the Clariphonic and some mild distortion — to add some high-frequency enhancement and grit — very useful to get the desired brilliance in the result.

_


----------



## Saxer (Feb 15, 2018)

btw all CC data targets can be changed on the GUI. I never use the default CC11 for dynamic and CC1 for vibrato.

I don't know if trying or learning to use a breath controller will help you. For me it's very natural as a wind player but it feels more like 'singing' the dynamic than actually playing a wind instrument. I think if you can sing the articulation you want (including crescendos, breath rests and accents) it would be rather easy to learn. Don't know if that makes sense.


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 15, 2018)

Some years ago I spent a lot of time doing a demo for the SM brass instruments. Unfortunately, I had a hard drive crash and everything was lost, so much work... . 
So far, I could not get excited about doing it again, but I can say: it works fine.
This was the song:


----------



## NoamL (Feb 15, 2018)

@storyteller

I don't own them but used them for 1.5 years assisting a TV composer on a show.

The SM trumpets were indispensable. There were tons of animation-style scoring situations where we needed falls, very fast scales/chromatic rips, progressive fluttertongue, shakes, exactly controlled crescendos, and often we needed all 3 trumpets to be doing this stuff in triadic formations. In other libraries, these articulations (which are hardly rare, extended techniques) are recorded as very inflexible oneshot samples with few RR, like the "cresc" samples in Hollywood Brass for instance. For SM, it was a breeze. Also, apart from Berlin Brass and Chris Hein, there is not another library I can think of that has 3 distinct but well-matching solo trumpets.

It's also worth adding that it was relatively easy and quick to get good results. Even without a breath controller.

We found the SM trombones and tuba to be good as well. 

The SM horns just don't sound great to my ear. There are many other horn VIs that I think are better for cinematic work, and perhaps also for close studio work.


----------



## Lee Blaske (Feb 15, 2018)

If you're doing a trumpet section, using Screaming Trumpet for the lead, and the SampleModeling trumpets for the rest of the section works great.


----------



## Lee Blaske (Feb 15, 2018)

A few weeks ago, I also just bought a secret weapon for more trumpet and trombone flexibility. I bought a vintage sixties era Wurlitzer Brasshorn, for re-amping trumpet and trombone samples (with the ability to add any kind of mute). The Brasshorn comes with both a trumpet and trombone bell.

Img11025.jpg


----------



## trumpoz (Feb 15, 2018)

The SM Trombone is fantastic imo. It does, as Piet suggests lack a little at higher dynamics. I dont own any of the other brass (i have the saxes)

I play it with a TEC breath controller and it is great.


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 15, 2018)

I use a Yamaha windcontroller, basically a virtual saxophone, for exposed solo lines but in context I can get great results just from Touch OSC. It's a fantastic instrument. 

As for the dryness of it, the library opens up with some good early reflections by default bringing it fairly in line with VSL silent stage libraries, so not totally dry. If you have any experience fitting VSL into a mix, Synchron excluded, it shouldn't be too much trouble.


----------



## jonnybutter (Feb 15, 2018)

I love SM brass. (The saxes are also quite good, but harder to get sounding good; saxes are so hard). Aside from what's already been said, the room you put them into matters a lot because they are indeed dry as a popcorn fart (am I allowed to say that?). If you do a search, some very knowledgeable people around here (cough, Jeast, cough, cough Saxer) have given lots of good tips about getting getting the appropriate ERs.

Here's a 'quirky 60s spy caper' type track I did with SM trombones using a breath controller: https://jonnybutter.com/track/1416812/on-million-dollars?feature_id=200386

btw, I'm aware that the production on this (older) track could be better, but I posted it because I do think the trombones sound good


----------



## novaburst (Feb 15, 2018)

I came across this some time ago this is the sax, but you can get the idea of feel and expression, and realisem from this sample modeling vst Instrument

Gives an idea of how far samples can be pushed.


----------



## novaburst (Feb 16, 2018)

These are very convincing to my ears I think I would be 100% fooled if I did not see it for my self.

I think what help is knowing how to work the brass. 

But I think sample modeling are on to a good thing I just wish they wish they would continue to develop and make there products less CPU intensive.

But they are or have moved in the right direction.


----------



## Jeast (Feb 16, 2018)

I love it! It is so much fun to play them and the sound you get out of it is amazing! 
I do agree with Piet; I find it hard to have them sounding good in an all-out full dynamic part. I also don't have much success with the Trumpet, but I am sure that's just my lack of playing it right.

All brass in this track is SM:


----------



## Phillip Dixon (Feb 16, 2018)

hi can anyone advise , recently purchased the saxes from audio modeling,
I really want trumpet 3 ,but after reading all the various threads here and elsewhere,on
situation between the two companies ,my head is spinning ,some say , won't be supported 
others differ.. i was just looking for a good performance sound with breath control specifically mutes .. 
spent more time reading about this than playing.. 
all the best phill


----------



## novaburst (Feb 16, 2018)

@Jeast I very much enjoyed your piece is that a 100% sample modeling,

Are you using any hardware aid for this or is it just the mod wheel.


----------



## clisma (Feb 16, 2018)

Phillip Dixon said:


> hi can anyone advise , recently purchased the saxes from audio modeling,
> I really want trumpet 3 ,but after reading all the various threads here and elsewhere,on
> situation between the two companies ,my head is spinning ,some say , won't be supported
> others differ.. i was just looking for a good performance sound with breath control specifically mutes ..
> ...


It’s perfectly safe to buy from Samplemodeling, they are not going anywhere. Even if they were, you would likely be able to continue using their instruments in their current form for several years. Easily worth the price of admission, as the brass top all of the other instruments, including the ones from Audio Modeling, good as they are.


----------



## Phillip Dixon (Feb 16, 2018)

clisma said:


> It’s perfectly safe to buy from Samplemodeling, they are not going anywhere. Even if they were, you would likely be able to continue using their instruments in their current form for several years. Easily worth the price of admission, as the brass top all of the other instruments, including the ones from Audio Modeling, good as they are.


 Thanks


----------



## novaburst (Feb 16, 2018)

Another one

Play that sax dude.......


----------



## Jeast (Feb 17, 2018)

novaburst said:


> @Jeast I very much enjoyed your piece is that a 100% sample modeling,
> 
> Are you using any hardware aid for this or is it just the mod wheel.


Hi Nova,

100% yes. I only used the modwheel for dynamics. I played in all the single instruments one by one so no unison by copying anything. I find this gives the best result.


----------



## leon chevalier (Feb 17, 2018)

To make SM brass sound bigger, I did a quick test (that can certainly be improved) where I'm layering it with the free angry brass : https://vi-control.net/community/th...ake-them-sound-huge.67925/page-2#post-4175383


----------



## LOU AU (Feb 21, 2018)

I used the SM brass (and woodwinds as well) for the last year and a half for a theme park. They were all indispensable. You have great control over the elements that can turn a static sound into music. There is a large learning curve, but the effort is well worth it, and yes, it gets a little unnerving hearing them dry when other samples in your tracks are wet. I use an inexpensive MRT breath controller. I ended up recording with a large big band but still dropped in some SM brass to achieve the result I was after. I hope that helps!


----------



## mojamusic (Feb 21, 2018)

LHall said:


> If you want to hear SM brass in action a bit, go to my website and listen to Masquerade. All brass and winds are SM.



The arrangement is wonderful, Larry. Really beautiful string lines reminiscent of my childhood days! I'm not sold on SM, though. What are your thoughts on BBB horns?


----------



## LHall (Feb 21, 2018)

Thank you Mojamusic! I haven't tried BBB, but it's hard for me to imagine them being as playable as SM/AM. Just curious what is bothering you about SM horns. Here's another clip to check out.


----------



## ag75 (Feb 21, 2018)

I think sample modeling is only truly good when used with a breath controller. The amount of realism you can achieve with that combo is pretty incredible.


----------



## bflat (Feb 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I came across this some time ago this is the sax, but you can get the idea of feel and expression, and realisem from this sample modeling vst Instrument
> 
> Gives an idea of how far samples can be pushed.




This is not Samplemodeling, this is the SWAM engine by Audio Modeling.
I think there is a lot of confusion about Samplemodeling vs Audio Modeling vs SWAM. This FAQ by Audio Modeling clarifies everything: http://www.swamengine.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=43


----------



## antcarrier (Feb 21, 2018)

SM brass is amazing, and has completely killed my GAS for any other brass libraries. I use it either with a breath controller + Linnstrument or with an eigenharp, and put it in VSL MIR pro for ambience. Unless SWAM come out with a brass library, I doubt I'll ever buy another brass library.


----------



## Monkberry (Feb 22, 2018)

bflat said:


> This is not Samplemodeling, this is the SWAM engine by Audio Modeling.
> I think there is a lot of confusion about Samplemodeling vs Audio Modeling vs SWAM. This FAQ by Audio Modeling clarifies everything: http://www.swamengine.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=43


Thanks for that link. I'm about to pull the trigger on SWAM Saxophones by Audio Modeling and I had some residual fears that I was springing for the wrong product. This resolved it.


----------



## Peter Siedlaczek (Feb 22, 2018)

Dear Friends,

let me chime in here, since the topic of the "epic sound" vs. our brass comes back from time to time .

You certainly agree that a big, bombastic brass sound depends also very much on how the score is written and played. The fullest brass sound is certainly not the sound achieved by playing just maximum fortissimo. Any close mic´ed brass instrument, if played ff, will have a "thinner" sound than if playing just forte or even mf. That´s completely normal. Especially if it´s dry. A well done orchestration/voicing, plus the right articulation and a suitable amount of the appropriate ambience will in most cases do the trick. And our instruments will simply follow what the player wants  . For example:



or



You might agree that the brass in these examples (as well as in other relevant examples on our demo pages) does not sound "thin", does it?

There is also a phenomenon of the playing fatigue, or rather the lack of it. Playing the highest dynamics on our instruments does not require any particular effort, as it does in case of real instruments. Consequently, many MIDI performances may tend a bit toward a thinner ff sound, because it´s so easy to get there... Just a hypothesis. I would like to encourage interested users to experiment a lot with the orchestration/voicing and ambience, and to analyze some very well known scores/examples, to find out more about the impact of the orchestration on sound. This is quite important in case of our brass, because it plays what the user wants, not what has been sampled.

Thank you for your attention 

Peter


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 22, 2018)

Peter Siedlaczek said:


> Dear Friends,
> 
> let me chime in here, since the topic of the "epic sound" vs. our brass comes back from time to time .
> 
> ...




Oh lemme chime in here .Two good examples where sm shines, but how is that achieved. Besides these 2 examples I didn´t heard any other example of convincing sample modeling which were near like that 2 examples. Both of those examples require a shitload of post production, experience and much more what most of the folks here are not knowing how to do so. This library for such a context is "find it out yourself" which is incredibly time consuming and incredibly hard to achieve. Actually besides those 2 examples I never heard a convincing sm orchestral track in such vibrant energetic context music. Some users achieved quite "ok" results but nothing near like that. But I think many orchestral users would like to know how get the most sound out of such product when they buy it ecspecially because sm is ass dry and you just can´t dial in an ambient micing and there you are. No, So you have to create step by step this believable space and therein I see the problem: It is extremely hard and I am not sure if that worth the time as well. I think Sm is good for soloing and all that Jazz and big band stuff though.


----------



## leon chevalier (Feb 22, 2018)

Peter Siedlaczek said:


> Dear Friends,
> 
> let me chime in here, since the topic of the "epic sound" vs. our brass comes back from time to time .
> 
> ...



Thanks for chiming in ! It always great when devs come to talk about the products !


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 22, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Oh lemme chime in here .Two good examples where sm shines, but how is that achieved. Besides these 2 examples I didn´t heard any other example of convincing sample modeling which were near like that 2 examples. Both of those examples require a shitload of post production, experience and much more what most of the folks here are not knowing how to do so. This library for such a context is "find it out yourself" which is incredibly time consuming and incredibly hard to achieve. Actually besides those 2 examples I never heard a convincing sm orchestral track in such vibrant energetic context music. Some users achieved quite "ok" results but nothing near like that. But I think many orchestral users would like to know how get the most sound out of such product when they buy it ecspecially because sm is ass dry and you just can´t dial in an ambient micing and there you are. No, So you have to create step by step this believable space and therein I see the problem: It is extremely hard and I am not sure if that worth the time as well. I think Sm is good for soloing and all that Jazz and big band stuff though.



My thoughts exactly. I've listened to those tracks by SampleControl many times before, and I have still yet to find *any* other SM brass examples that even come close to that sound. There is some real post-production magic going on there, as well as great orchestration. However, for 99.9% of media composers, they will never be able to achieve a sound like that with only SM brass without serious knowledge of post production, an ample amount of effects, and a golden ear. There are even videos on SampleControl's Youtube page showing how SM mixes with Altiverb well, yet no one but SampleControl has ever come close to those Star Wars videos.

If someone can show me any other example of SM brass sounding that beautiful and alive in an orchestral context, I'd love to hear it. But right now, that sound is pretty much mythical for anyone jumping into these samples.


----------



## novaburst (Feb 22, 2018)

bflat said:


> This is not Samplemodeling, this is the SWAM engine by Audio Modeling.
> I think there is a lot of confusion about Samplemodeling vs Audio Modeling vs SWAM. This FAQ by Audio Modeling clarifies everything: http://www.swamengine.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=43



I thought they are same Developer


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 22, 2018)

Geocranium said:


> My thoughts exactly. I've listened to those tracks by SampleControl many times before, and I have still yet to find *any* other SM brass examples that even come close to that sound. There is some real post-production magic going on there, as well as great orchestration. However, for 99.9% of media composers, they will never be able to achieve a sound like that with only SM brass without serious knowledge of post production, an ample amount of effects, and a golden ear. There are even videos on SampleControl's Youtube page showing how SM mixes with Altiverb well, yet no one but SampleControl has ever come close to those Star Wars videos.
> 
> If someone can show me any other example of SM brass sounding that beautiful and alive in an orchestral context, I'd love to hear it. But right now, that sound is pretty much mythical for anyone jumping into these samples.



Yepp and that is what I actually find problematic when Peter S. posts that to tell the crowd here: Look Sm can sound like that. But the reality is: Nobody gets a sound of out it like that, not even near like that. And such post is missleading because it lets people believe that if they buy the product then they can make this sound happen, in theory yes. But most of the stuff I hear from users using sm brass for such context sound harsh with a fake space and utterly gross. But not because the people suck, no but because I believe that it seems to be insanely hard work with sm brass on post production. And I talked to a few guys who use sm on a regular base and they commit in that regards. Maybe the company of sm brass should provide some tutorials how to use sm brass in different context. I mean especially with such of special product? At least I always felt that the lack of legit information prevented me gain greater interested towards sm.


----------



## Lotias (Feb 22, 2018)

I don't believe that spatializing a dry source is nearly as hard as everyone here keeps complaining. There are many, many resources on the internet for successfully doing so.

Comments on this video also recommend using a convolution reverb rather than algorithmic. The video itself essentially suggests only using the wet signal from the reverb. You could also try using something like MIR. There are other ways of trying to spatialize it, but this video is from the same source as the Star Wars theme.

The creator of the Star Wars mockup mentions they used EQ and Altiverb - two effects, which are not nearly as much as the 'ample amount of effects' someone claimed you need.

The rest is articulation & dynamics, which the Samplemodeling guy touched on.


----------



## novaburst (Feb 22, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> it lets people believe that if they buy the product then they can make this sound happen, in theory yes. But most of the stuff I hear from users using sm brass for such context sound harsh with a fake space and utterly gross. But not because the people suck, no but because I believe that it seems to be insanely hard work with sm brass on post production.



I think the same can be said about a real brass instrument those who give the time and work hard can make the instrument sound great, but those who give little time and are not prepared to work at it, there playing sounds a little lame.

I have always said the more real a sample instrument sounds the harder work it is going to take to use it learn it, more time for it because that = realism


----------



## LHall (Feb 22, 2018)

Exactly Novaburst. I use SM/AM every day. Yes, it takes a little work - not as much now that I kind of have my template down. But the work is worth it. I totally disagree that no one else than SampleControl has ever made SM Brass sound great. Rather insulting actually. Speaking for those of us who have spent a lifetime working, studying, learning, crafting, practicing - I'm glad that there are still some things out there that require some work and thought. Too many want instant pro results these days without putting in the work. That's why there's so much really really bad music out there.


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 22, 2018)

Lotias said:


> I don't believe that spatializing a dry source is nearly as hard as everyone here keeps complaining. There are many, many resources on the internet for successfully doing so.
> 
> Comments on this video also recommend using a convolution reverb rather than algorithmic. The video itself essentially suggests only using the wet signal from the reverb. You could also try using something like MIR. There are other ways of trying to spatialize it, but this video is from the same source as the Star Wars theme.
> 
> ...




Yes, I've seen that video before, and I understand the concepts. That doesn't change the fact that no one but SampleControl has ever actually achieved something that sounds that good.

It's also one thing to make a dry source sound wet and positioned properly, but an entirely different thing to create an ensemble that sounds so thoroughly convincing. SM usually fails at the second part.


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 22, 2018)

LHall said:


> Exactly Novaburst. I use SM/AM every day. Yes, it takes a little work - not as much now that I kind of have my template down. But the work is worth it. I totally disagree that no one else than SampleControl has ever made SM Brass sound great. Rather insulting actually. Speaking for those of us who have spent a lifetime working, studying, learning, crafting, practicing - I'm glad that there are still some things out there that require some work and thought. Too many want instant pro results these days without putting in the work. That's why there's so much really really bad music out there.



Please link me or point me to the direction of an orchestral piece, using only SM brass, that sounds as good as the SampleControl videos. There may very well be others out there, but I haven't heard them.


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 22, 2018)

I have to disagree with some of the sentiments here. It takes very little post production magic, it takes few effects to make SM brass sound good. What it does take are different skills: good performances and good knowledge of orchestration. It takes more work and knowledge of brass to get a good performance out of the instruments in the first place.


----------



## novaburst (Feb 22, 2018)

Geocranium said:


> Please link me or point me to the direction of an orchestral piece, using only SM brass, that sounds as good as the SampleControl videos. There may very well be others out there, but I haven't heard them.



I think it's best to check out what @Peter Siedlaczek is saying.



Peter Siedlaczek said:


> The fullest brass sound is certainly not the sound achieved by playing just maximum fortissimo. Any close mic´ed brass instrument, if played ff, will have a "thinner" sound than if playing just forte or even mf. That´s completely normal. Especially if it´s dry. A well done orchestration/voicing, plus the right articulation and a suitable amount of the appropriate ambience



Some good tips



Peter Siedlaczek said:


> would like to encourage interested users to experiment a lot with the orchestration/voicing and ambience, and to analyze some very well known scores/examples, to find out more about the impact of the orchestration on sound. This is quite important in case of our brass, because it plays what the user wants, not what has been sampled.



Again some great advice

The very least any one who has this brass should follow some of these tips.


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 22, 2018)

My ultimate point is the same as Alexander's: advertising SM brass's capabilities by showing off those videos made by SampleControl is a little bit dishonest, because no one is going to actually be capable of achieving that sound. It'd be like advertising After Effects by showing one of Cyriak's animations. Does he do them all in After Effects? Yes, but he is a truly one-of-a-kind talented individual, and so far really the only person known that's capable of creating the things that he does. 

Technically yes, it is possible. But I'm willing to bet a decent sum of money that no one will ever touch a sound like that with only SM brass. It's just not realistic. And if you disagree with that, someone PLEASE link me to another orchestral piece with SM brass that sounds just as good. I'd really love to hear it, because great orchestral mockups are something that I truly appreciate.


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 22, 2018)

LHall said:


> Exactly Novaburst. I use SM/AM every day. Yes, it takes a little work - not as much now that I kind of have my template down. But the work is worth it. I totally disagree that no one else than SampleControl has ever made SM Brass sound great. Rather insulting actually. Speaking for those of us who have spent a lifetime working, studying, learning, crafting, practicing - I'm glad that there are still some things out there that require some work and thought. Too many want instant pro results these days without putting in the work. That's why there's so much really really bad music out there.



I do not mean this as an insult, but the tracks on your website that use SM brass (the first two on the homepage) don't come close to the sound that SampleControl has. They sound fantastic in their own right, but SampleControl is simply on another level. It's great music, but I can tell it's all done via samples, while on the other hand, SampleControl really begins to blur that line. It's an amazing talent that only very few can realistically achieve.


----------



## novaburst (Feb 23, 2018)

I think you need to write a piece with the same or similar score.

And this


Casiquire said:


> I have to disagree with some of the sentiments here. It takes very little post production magic, it takes few effects to make SM brass sound good. What it does take are different skills: good performances and good knowledge of orchestration. It takes more work and knowledge of brass to get a good performance out of the instruments in the first place.



If you haven't put the dedication and time you just want know.

If you are not prepared to invest your time and skill to get a sound like that then what's the point in the argument. 

You have heard it, so the point is it can be done, if the argument is it takes to much time, then simply give it and become skillful at it, 

Here we are presented with a brass that has the ability to really sound like the real deal, i would have thought the attitude would have been yes yes lets go for it 

But all i can see is no no i am not prepared to give my time and effort for that........strange really strange.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 23, 2018)

Anybody mocked up with sample modeling brass some star wars stuff like the entrance of the main title what Samplecontrol did? Just curious to hear some comparisons. Before someone gets me wrong: I am not here to dismiss SM Brass in fact it is the other way around I am very interested in it but I have still my doubts that you can reach a level of high realism for energetic music writing (star wars, BTTF kind of vibe) because there are certain aspect which probably most users don´t know how to achieve? 

And still from sample control comes the only examples thus I have heard so far which are really convincing. With SM brass you need to do quite some extensive post production so I don´t agree with one or the other member. I tell you an example: EQ for such a setting like the star wars example. You need to eq a shitload out of SM brass in order to create a proper Z - Depth. Just slamming over ER´s and a reverb Tail just is a tiny percentage of what makes that work. In fact the Equing process is a very important here and a very tricky process with such dry samples. At least that is what I believe.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 23, 2018)

What could they used more than EQ, early reflection, reverb and maybe some compression? I think it's all about how they did it the right way. Adorable but not impossible.


----------



## I like music (Feb 23, 2018)

I do love these instruments. I guess Sample Control never fully revealed how he achieved the sound? Shame that we haven't had someone who can do it super well, sit and explain exactly how they did it.

That said, I like this one. Not sure if for people it qualifies as that big sound (but for me it is big enough, and probably what we should be using SM for) and sounds pretty good ...


----------



## jonathanprice (Feb 23, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Anybody mocked up with sample modeling brass some star wars stuff like the entrance of the main title what Samplecontrol did? Just curious to hear some comparisons. Before someone gets me wrong: I am not here to dismiss SM Brass in fact it is the other way around I am very interested in it but I have still my doubts that you can reach a level of high realism for energetic music writing (star wars, BTTF kind of vibe) because there are certain aspect which probably most users don´t know how to achieve?
> 
> And still from sample control comes the only examples thus I have heard so far which are really convincing. With SM brass you need to do quite some extensive post production so I don´t agree with one or the other member. I tell you an example: EQ for such a setting like the star wars example. You need to eq a shitload out of SM brass in order to create a proper Z - Depth. Just slamming over ER´s and a reverb Tail just is a tiny percentage of what makes that work. In fact the Equing process is a very important here and a very tricky process with such dry samples. At least that is what I believe.



Yeah, I'm still working on EQ, but here's some (partly) STAR WARS MAIN TITLE using nothing but SM brass (and SWAM piccolo).


----------



## Lotias (Feb 23, 2018)

jonathanprice said:


> Yeah, I'm still working on EQ, but here's some (partly) STAR WARS MAIN TITLE using nothing but SM brass (and SWAM piccolo).



You might want to be adjusting that reverb - it seems like there's too much of something there, whether it's the tail or something else. And the dynamics too, it felt like the brass was always playing at the exact same dynamic.


----------



## jonathanprice (Feb 23, 2018)

Lotias said:


> You might want to be adjusting that reverb - it seems like there's too much of something there, whether it's the tail or something else. And the dynamics too, it felt like the brass was always playing at the exact same dynamic.



Will do!


----------



## Peter Siedlaczek (Feb 23, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr & Geocranium,

despite the unpleasant tone, we are glad you recognized that Samplemodeling brass is capable of reaching a voluminous, "epic" sound. The examples I provided yesterday are an indisputable proof of what can be achieved with our instruments. You ought not to call it "dishonest". What´s behind these examples is nothing "magic", but the solid professionalism of the performer and the brilliant orchestration of John Williams.

Although you seem to prefer pre-recorded samples, easy to access via a key stroke, rather than a full control over playable instruments, I´d like to invite you to visit our demo pages, in case you did not do it yet. Not sure if there are examples which you consider as "epic enough", but you might listen here:

http://www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/FHorn+Tuba/Two_Winds.mp3

or here:

http://www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/Orchestral/R.DeLivera_March.mp3

http://www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/Orchestral/Dragons_(end_credits).mp3

http://www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/Brass/EternalFatherStrongToSave_Sascha_Knorr.mp3

or here...




There are of course also plenty of other styles. To some of the demos one can download the MIDI files showing all the details of programming.

Peter


----------



## PerryD (Feb 23, 2018)

I did a quick clip of the factory Samplemodeling unison multi French Horns BC preset. This is using the multi without EQ, compression or external processing. Played in one pass using my breath controller, no key switches. I didn't even use the entire dynamic range, never touching 127. I do use external reverb, compression and alternate panning when I create a normal project. I just did this to show the "epic" possibilities, even before processing is applied. The playability is amazing.


----------



## PerryD (Feb 23, 2018)

This contains the "factory" reverb that loads in the stock preset.


----------



## DMDComposer (Feb 23, 2018)

PerryD said:


> I did a quick clip of the factory Samplemodeling unison multi French Horns BC preset. This is using the multi without EQ, compression or external processing. Played in one pass using my breath controller, no key switches. I didn't even use the entire dynamic range, never touching 127. I do use external reverb, compression and alternate panning when I create a normal project. I just did this to show the "epic" possibilities, even before processing is applied. The playability is amazing.



That sounded great. Is it possible for you to share the midi/cc data with us? I don't own a breath controller but I'd like to study the midi/cc data on how the breath controller is shaping the sound?


----------



## PerryD (Feb 23, 2018)

DMDComposer said:


> That sounded great. Is it possible for you to share the midi/cc data with us? I don't own a breath controller but I'd like to study the midi/cc data on how the breath controller is shaping the sound?


 Thanks. I deleted that session just a few minutes ago. I can easily do a midi file of the same thing again.  I will create it later this evening.


----------



## I like music (Feb 23, 2018)

PerryD said:


> Thanks. I deleted that session just a few minutes ago. I can easily do a midi file of the same thing again.  I will create it later this evening.



The Force theme.

You're supposed to do The Force theme!

Sounds great though.


----------



## PerryD (Feb 23, 2018)

DMDComposer said:


> That sounded great. Is it possible for you to share the midi/cc data with us? I don't own a breath controller but I'd like to study the midi/cc data on how the breath controller is shaping the sound?


 Hmmm. How do I upload the midi file I just made? It doesn't show up in supported file types when I select "upload a file".


----------



## PerryD (Feb 23, 2018)

Ah. You have to zip it.  This is the midi file. I didn't use a click or music, but it is very _close_ to what I played in the video. Load the French Horn & Tuba Version 3 Multi preset "unison Horns V.3 (BC)"


----------



## PerryD (Feb 23, 2018)

DMDComposer said:


> That sounded great. Is it possible for you to share the midi/cc data with us? I don't own a breath controller but I'd like to study the midi/cc data on how the breath controller is shaping the sound?


 Shared in the post above. -Perry-


----------



## Jacob Cadmus (Feb 23, 2018)

Best use of SM brass I ever heard is Daniel Beijbom's "Boss Battle"

https://m.soundcloud.com/danielbeijbom/boss-battle


----------



## I like music (Feb 23, 2018)

Jacob Cadmus said:


> Best use of SM brass I ever heard is Daniel Beijbom's "Boss Battle"
> 
> https://m.soundcloud.com/danielbeijbom/boss-battle



Niceeee


----------



## Straight2Vinyl (Feb 23, 2018)

I own the Trumpet as well as a couple SWAM instruments(saxes and string collection). The trumpet is as good as it gets for a solo instrument. I'll be picking up the Trombone at some point as well.


----------



## DMDComposer (Feb 23, 2018)

PerryD said:


> Ah. You have to zip it.  This is the midi file. I didn't use a click or music, but it is very _close_ to what I played in the video. Load the French Horn & Tuba Version 3 Multi preset "unison Horns V.3 (BC)"



Thank you so much. This is really informative. I have one question, how does the breath controller line look with short notes? Like when you play fast short rhythmic notes as in this horn part in the Harry Potter music.











https://i.gyazo.com/6a99b92d3ca9530dcfcbe2f576f1df50.png

Are the lines just constant on high dynamics or do they move, rise & fall in between each note?


----------



## aaronventure (Feb 23, 2018)

One cool trick I do for SM is add a random LFO modulator to CC1 with a very small range (~2 units +/-) to simulate imperfect flow of breath. Unnoticeable on fast and loud marcato lines, pretty impactful on slower lines. It's not something you can just pull of on the modwheel. So while the modwheel input are clean curves, what's actually heading into Kontakt is a bit more jaggy and rugged.


----------



## Geocranium (Feb 23, 2018)

Jacob Cadmus said:


> Best use of SM brass I ever heard is Daniel Beijbom's "Boss Battle"
> 
> https://m.soundcloud.com/danielbeijbom/boss-battle



I've heard this track before! Very impressive. Honestly the strings are the most impressive thing about it. Very expressive. I must say, this is the only posted example in the thread so far where I wouldn't have immediately said that I was hearing SM brass. It's the only one that comes close to the SampleControl videos.

I think SM brass is an incredible instrument capable of incredible sounds. Their technology is second to none, and I'm excited for any future releases they have. My only contention is that I would give a newbie looking for a brass library a fair warning about how difficult it is it achieve those trailer bwams and epic FFF passages. Takes a lot of finesse.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 23, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> One cool trick I do for SM is add a random LFO modulator to CC1 with a very small range (~2 units +/-) to simulate imperfect flow of breath. Unnoticeable on fast and loud marcato lines, pretty impactful on slower lines. It's not something you can just pull of on the modwheel. So while the modwheel input are clean curves, what's actually heading into Kontakt is a bit more jaggy and rugged.


How do you set the LFO in the SM instruments?


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 24, 2018)

Saxer said:


> How do you set the LFO in the SM instruments?


I believe you'd do that in your DAW rather than in the instrument.


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 24, 2018)

Geocranium said:


> I think SM brass is an incredible instrument capable of incredible sounds. Their technology is second to none, and I'm excited for any future releases they have. My only contention is that I would give a newbie looking for a brass library a fair warning about how difficult it is it achieve those trailer bwams and epic FFF passages. Takes a lot of finesse.



While I do agree with your point in general, I think it's worth noting that the same warning should be given to anybody who wishes to do the same using real instruments. In my opinion, samples shouldn't be used because they're _easier _than real instruments, but simply because they're _more accessible._


----------



## aaronventure (Feb 24, 2018)

Saxer said:


> How do you set the LFO in the SM instruments?



I work in Reaper so I don't know how other DAWs do this (I know Ableton can't, or couldn't in 9.7). ReaControlMIDI, add a slider for ModWheel, Param>Parameter Modulation, click on LFO, set it up, and click on MIDI link below. Now, I actually use a CC mapper to transform my CC1 into CCX (40 or something unused by SM) before ReaControlMIDI, and then assign that to the source control in the Parameter Modulation. To sum it up, my modwheel transforms into CC40, CC40 controls the baseline for the LFO, LFO does its work on the "modwheel" parameter and the result exits ReaControlMIDI as CC1.

I also do a similar thing for Spitfire strings since they lack inflections, only I create an envelope based on sidechain input which is a hihat playing every time I play a note. That way I don't have to do those miniscule CC1 edits every time I move a note - it's done automatically. I simply use it like in CSS, for swells and overall dynamic changes, and if I don't want the inflection or want it to be slightly different, I edit that small part. Hihat volume has a small random LFO on its volume so that the inflection depth is slightly different every time. I also have the sustain pedal mapped to HiHat volume (actually it's remapped 64>65 because 64 will sustain notes) so holding the sustain pedal simply bypasses the whole effect.

All done using standard (ReaControlMIDI) and custom (CC Mapper X) JS effects in Reaper, and the performance hit is literally 0.

This saves a shit-ton of my time and I'm able to work much faster.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 24, 2018)

Cool stuff! Thanks for the detailed infos!


----------



## PerryD (Feb 28, 2018)

I had some free time this morning. I haven't done anything with an "epic" vibe lately. I did a short fanfare using SM brass. The second half is the brass by itself. A bit over the top but a fun exercise.


----------



## Rilla (Apr 22, 2019)

Jacob Cadmus said:


> Best use of SM brass I ever heard is Daniel Beijbom's "Boss Battle"
> 
> https://m.soundcloud.com/danielbeijbom/boss-battle


----------



## germancomponist (Apr 22, 2019)

Basically, SM's instruments require prior knowledge of how sound is generated, how instruments / sound waves are absorbed by rooms, and how to operate a mixer to make it sound good. Every sounding engineer used to have that knowledge, and if you do not have it, there are many offers on the Internet to learn it. If you master that, then you will fall in love with the instruments of SM!


----------



## dgburns (Apr 22, 2019)

Sample Modelling Brass is crap. 

Do not use it on it’s own, it will sound realistic. Do not add reverb, for it will only make it sound better. Do not work the parameters, for it will only make it sound almost as good as a real trumpet, in the right hands. Do not, for Pete’s sake, use the mutes, they just have no equivalent.

And whatever you do, do not take your time and divisi the playing across a full Sample Modelling brass section, cause it might just sound so close to the real thing, as to make you think you don’t need the real thing.

Like I said, they suck 

And whatever you do, do not blend with any other library, it might actually sound really good. You’ve been warned !!


----------



## chocobitz825 (Apr 22, 2019)

Jacob Cadmus said:


> Best use of SM brass I ever heard is Daniel Beijbom's "Boss Battle"
> 
> https://m.soundcloud.com/danielbeijbom/boss-battle



i think i need to change my pants.....


----------



## oboemaroni (Apr 23, 2019)

It's interesting to see since the company split which products are Audio Modeling and which are Sample Modeling - to me the brass (which is Sample Modeling) sounds head and shoulders more realistic than any of the other libaries, which leads me to think the modeled-from-samples approach is what works best. Just hope the fact that they've split up doesn't mean the expertise to make something great is divided between two companies.


----------



## Raphioli (Apr 23, 2019)

Jacob Cadmus said:


> Best use of SM brass I ever heard is Daniel Beijbom's "Boss Battle"
> 
> https://m.soundcloud.com/danielbeijbom/boss-battle



First time I noticed this thread.

And wow! Amazing piece and use of sample modeling.

I knew sample modeling sounded great in good hands, especially the trumpets.
But to me, it just looks too hard to use. (difficulty seems its at another level compared to regular samples)
Not just programming wise, but trying to place the instrument, like pushing it back in the hall.
So I haven't bought any sample modeling stuff (or completely dry libraries in that case for orchestral stuff).

Anyways, hats off to Daniel. (and thx for the bump. I probably wouldn't have noticed it without it)


----------



## Henu (Apr 23, 2019)

I love everything else on the SM instruments, but I just can't get the horns to sound anything like that. :(


----------



## PerryD (Apr 23, 2019)

Henu said:


> I love everything else on the SM instruments, but I just can't get the horns to sound anything like that. :(


----------



## Henu (Apr 23, 2019)

Salt, meet wounds.  In all seriousness, I think one of my problems is going too extreme with the mod wheel. While it sounds good with the trumpets, it sounds horrible when cranked on horns. That, and the dreaded dead space. The ER's are a complete bitch to get sounding right.


----------



## PerryD (Apr 23, 2019)

Henu said:


> Salt, meet wounds.  In all seriousness, I think one of my problems is going too extreme with the mod wheel. While it sounds good with the trumpets, it sounds horrible when cranked on horns. That, and the dreaded dead space. The ER's are a complete bitch to get sounding right.



As a "real" brass player, I love using a breath controller with SM brass. Dynamics feel natural to me.


----------



## Henu (Apr 23, 2019)

That's something on my "to do"- list. I've been owning a breath controller for two years and just a couple of weeks ago I bit the bullet and practiced using it. Would you care to tell me what sort of curve are you using? I have a bit troubles to find something that feels natural- it's either too soft or too loud.


----------



## Rilla (Apr 23, 2019)

I've been studying the trumpet lately.

The trumpet has 15 Controllers (PB + CC's) and 25 keyswitches.

Most of these 40 parameters aren't needed in everyday usage, but it's better to have these options and not need them than to need them and not have them.

Samplemodeling has filled in the void of parameters I always felt were missing on sample-based, non-modelled instruments. So while there is a hefty amount of tools to use, that only helps get the exact results you want. This thing is really thorough.

Also, I don't get the complaint about the anechoic sound. I consider it a blessing. Sound happens in 3 stages, 1) direct sound 2) early reflections and 3) predelay/late reflections. Samplemodeling provides the direct sound, a reverb provides the early reflections and late reflections (Early=less than 30ms, Late=more than 30ms). Recording a trumpet in an ambient room and then auxing it to Altiverb = 2 sets of ER's; the ER captured in the trumpet mic and the ER captured in the impulse response. The most accurate results for realism would be to record anechoically and then add convolution reverb (ultrarealism=multi-convolution). And when I do that it sounds fantastic to me. Maybe people are used to working with samples recorded with ER's and then further adding reverb to that. But imo, recording anechoically is the most logical means to getting the most realistic results. You can't remove an ER once it's been recorded. But you can always add ER's to an anechoic recording.


----------



## 0cme (Apr 29, 2019)

> But to me, it just looks too hard to use. (difficulty seems its at another level compared to regular samples)



It really isn't that hard, I've only just had it for a few days and am already getting way better results than I did with, say, Hollywood Brass. If anything in some ways it's easier, because there aren't the same sort of 'problem samples' you get with a regular sample library... note transitions that just don't sound right at the dynamic you want, etc. You aren't boxed in anymore.


----------



## Go To 11 (Apr 29, 2019)

Rilla said:


> I've been studying the trumpet lately.
> 
> The trumpet has 15 Controllers (PB + CC's) and 25 keyswitches.
> 
> ...


Personally, I've never been able to get a 'big' sound out of Sample Modelling brass. It always just sounds like reverb being added to a close mic'd brass section. There is never any 'real' sense of room, and no low end information. It's just not there, so no matter how much reverb I add, it will never arrive. Have you, or anyone here ever got Sample Modeling to sound as big as say Cinebrass or CSB or Berlin Brass? I just can't get that low end. It just sounds squeaky. AFAIK, the brass 'sound' is heavily dependent on the room its recorded in, more so than other instruments. Look forward to a solution if there is one, to access that low end information, if it exists.


----------



## LHall (Apr 29, 2019)

I've had really good results using VSS2. You can place them on one of several stages in any position, pick the mic setup, etc. Then I use Spaces II for the longer tail. Vienna has a similar tool but I don't have that. VSS2 is a pretty amazing tool. http://virtualsoundstage.com


----------



## Go To 11 (Apr 29, 2019)

LHall said:


> I've had really good results using VSS2. You can place them on one of several stages in any position, pick the mic setup, etc. Then I use Spaces II for the longer tail. Vienna has a similar tool but I don't have that. VSS2 is a pretty amazing tool. http://virtualsoundstage.com


Thanks. Do you have any examples of its use with Sample Modeling that you could share?


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Apr 29, 2019)

Rilla said:


> I've been studying the trumpet lately.
> 
> The trumpet has 15 Controllers (PB + CC's) and 25 keyswitches.
> 
> ...



in theory it's great - in practice - it's not. 

Also very hard to provide low end that wasn't actually there to begin with - something that occurs in real life.


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Apr 30, 2019)

I think they are great sounding instruments and I would highly recommend them.

I use them with a breath controller and run them through Vienna MIR Pro. 

I have only used them as solo instruments, so I cannot speak for section building with them, but the expressiveness available through a fluid morphology between states is very attractive compared to all of the crossfading problems inherent with discrete sample sets. You can custom tailor articulations much better. 

There is a learning curve however, so RT*M.


----------



## Rilla (Apr 30, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> in theory it's great - in practice - it's not.
> 
> Also very hard to provide low end that wasn't actually there to begin with - something that occurs in real life.



Why in practice is it not? To what low end are you referring?


----------



## Rilla (Apr 30, 2019)

Go To 11 said:


> Personally, I've never been able to get a 'big' sound out of Sample Modelling brass. It always just sounds like reverb being added to a close mic'd brass section. There is never any 'real' sense of room, and no low end information. It's just not there, so no matter how much reverb I add, it will never arrive. Have you, or anyone here ever got Sample Modeling to sound as big as say Cinebrass or CSB or Berlin Brass? I just can't get that low end. It just sounds squeaky. AFAIK, the brass 'sound' is heavily dependent on the room its recorded in, more so than other instruments. Look forward to a solution if there is one, to access that low end information, if it exists.



I think the room, mics and preamps play a HUGE part as to why it might be difficult to make SM sound exactly like the ones you mentioned. Its not impossible however. Depending on your skills it might be easy.


----------



## LHall (May 1, 2019)

Go To 11 said:


> Thanks. Do you have any examples of its use with Sample Modeling that you could share?


Here's a snippet of a mockup I did for another composer using SM Brass and VSS2


----------



## I like music (May 1, 2019)

Was listening to a lot of those 'masterclass' type videos on youtube lately, and I realised that libraries and film scores had (to some extent) really changed my perception and memory of what these brass instruments sound like in more intimate environment. Check out the Sarah Willis French Horn masterclasses. The horn sounds very different to how I had come to know it after listening to those lush scores.


----------



## Go To 11 (May 1, 2019)

LHall said:


> Here's a snippet of a mockup I did for another composer using SM Brass and VSS2



This is a really great track, thanks. I still hear a lot of that squeaky top end that I get with SM and not much bottom end. Granted though this is some of the best SM Brass I've heard!


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (May 1, 2019)

Henu said:


> I love everything else on the SM instruments, but I just can't get the horns to sound anything like that. :(


actually that I find not easy as well therefore I was spending again some time to build the sound from scratch. What do you think? 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/19oexd1e97h5tbf/AACec_LGO5S4TgooySD9MSU7a?dl=0


----------



## Raphioli (May 2, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> actually that I find not easy as well therefore I was spending again some time to build the sound from scratch. What do you think?
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/19oexd1e97h5tbf/AACec_LGO5S4TgooySD9MSU7a?dl=0



I really like the sound of the first several seconds.
I didn't know Sample Modeling could get that huge thick sound on its own.

I assume it took a lot of work to get there.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (May 2, 2019)

Raphioli said:


> I really like the sound of the first several seconds.
> I didn't know Sample Modeling could get that huge thick sound on its own.
> 
> I assume it took a lot of work to get there.



Not that much.. it took me like 2-3 hours or something. I have improved the sound quite a bit also in a newer version. I think this was patch version 3, now I have version 4.


----------



## Henu (May 2, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> actually that I find not easy as well therefore I was spending again some time to build the sound from scratch. What do you think?
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/19oexd1e97h5tbf/AACec_LGO5S4TgooySD9MSU7a?dl=0



I like it! Especially the small pitch fluctuation.  Do you happen to have a polyphonic version you could share as well? I'm currently fooling around with LASS ER IR's (jesus this abbreviation monster :D ) and I think the solo horn starts to be where it should be. Can post some results later when I'm done!


----------



## Mark Schmieder (May 2, 2019)

As I've been finalizing some jazz projects this week, I revisited a few tracks where I wasn't thrilled with the timbral balance between The Trumpet and The Trombone, and found in a few instances that the Bass Trombone did the trick. The range is similar but the timbre is quite different; less splatty. Sometimes that's what you need to better blend with other winds. Don't forget the Bass Trombone; many do not know or understand the instrument. The Contrabass is the one that is actually lower in overall pitch range.

From Wiki:

"The modern bass trombone is pitched in B♭. Its tubing length of 9 feet (2.7 m) is identical to that of the tenor trombone, but it has a wider bore, a larger bell, and a larger mouthpiece. These features generate an overall darker, weightier tone that speaks with a more assured authority in lower registers when compared to the tenor trombone."

As for the Tuba, for consistency's sake I replaced my VSL Tuba on one track with Sample Modeling, and had to work at it a bit as the articulations and phrasing are not quite as realistic as the laborious work done with VSL key switches, but overall the timbre and especially the controllable vibrato, sound more realistic in the jazz context and blend better with The Trumpet and The Trombone.

I also have one Orchestral Horn part in one of the jazz songs, and The French Horn got used vs. VSL. It's actually a very expressive instrument with a warm and natural timbre that doesn't get splatty.


----------



## JPQ (May 3, 2019)

breath controlers are not for me does this work with Roli seaboard as well? i think which such i can similar expression. more parameters than single note with velocity and maye aftertouch and modwheel.


----------



## Rilla (May 3, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> As I've been finalizing some jazz projects this week, I revisited a few tracks where I wasn't thrilled with the timbral balance between The Trumpet and The Trombone, and found in a few instances that the Bass Trombone did the trick. The range is similar but the timbre is quite different; less splatty. Sometimes that's what you need to better blend with other winds. Don't forget the Bass Trombone; many do not know or understand the instrument. The Contrabass is the one that is actually lower in overall pitch range.
> 
> From Wiki:
> 
> ...



Nice....although ain't nothin wrong with a lil splat.


----------



## Mark Schmieder (May 3, 2019)

Exactly, but not always. When I DON'T want splat, is when I go for the other options.


----------



## Virtual Virgin (May 4, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Exactly, but not always. When I DON'T want splat, is when I go for the other options.


Sounds like you need a splat slider...


----------



## Mark Schmieder (May 4, 2019)

Hmm, would that have to be called a splider? Even an itsy bitsy splider?


----------



## bmdaustin (May 17, 2020)

LHall said:


> If you want to hear SM brass in action a bit, go to my website and listen to Masquerade. All brass and winds are SM.


Just now finding this thread - what is your website?


----------



## robgb (May 17, 2020)

Disclaimer: I'm testing SM Brass and was provided a copy by the developer for an unbiased review. Some think this disqualifies my opinion. I don't.

Bottom line: SM Brass is pretty terrific, not only in tone but it terms of playability. My only complaint is the lack of dedicated ensemble patches like they have for their strings (although you can build your own pretty easily) and the lack of polyphony (the patches are legato only). If there is a polyphony mode I'm missing, please let me know. I've only just started playing with the library (and have yet to take a close look at the manual).

One way around the polyphony issue is to use the Multi-Divisi multiscript for Kontakt that's available elsewhere on this forum. It works pretty well. But this is easily the best brass library *I've* used.

All that said, my full review will be online once I've cleared my desk of a dozen other projects I've been neglecting in the wake of Covid-19.


----------



## robgb (May 17, 2020)

Oh, and another review that I'm hoping to get done this coming week is for @d.healey's SORDINA, which is a dedicated VST for brass mutes that can be added on the track for any brass library. A ton of mutes in the package for a myriad of brass instruments. Really indispensable.


----------



## José Herring (May 17, 2020)

robgb said:


> Oh, and another review that I'm hoping to get done this coming week is for @d.healey's SORDINA, which is a dedicated VST for brass mutes that can be added on the track for any brass library. A ton of mutes in the package for a myriad of brass instruments. Really indispensable.


WHAAATTTTT!!!!! Is it convolution based? I'm curious


----------



## robgb (May 17, 2020)

josejherring said:


> WHAAATTTTT!!!!! Is it convolution based? I'm curious


Yes. IR based from muted and unmuted instruments. He hopes to include strings in the future.


----------



## José Herring (May 17, 2020)

Sounds good. I noticed the examples on the site use close mic'd instruments recorded in a small studio. How well does it work with samples recorded in a large studio or hall?


----------



## robgb (May 17, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Sounds good. I noticed the examples on the site use close mic'd instruments recorded in a small studio. How well does it work with samples recorded in a large studio or hall?


I'll check that out for the review. I'll try it on Albion One brass and see what I get.


----------



## dreddiknight (May 17, 2020)

robgb said:


> Oh, and another review that I'm hoping to get done this coming week is for @d.healey's SORDINA, which is a dedicated VST for brass mutes that can be added on the track for any brass library. A ton of mutes in the package for a myriad of brass instruments. Really indispensable.


Bookmarked!


----------



## aaronventure (May 17, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Sounds good. I noticed the examples on the site use close mic'd instruments recorded in a small studio. How well does it work with samples recorded in a large studio or hall?


It works the same way. The principle is the same.


----------



## skythemusic (Sep 18, 2020)

Does anyone know if the SM Brass can be used fully with the Roli Rise? I'm not experienced with a breath controller but I am buying one of those for other MPE instruments so I thought I might be able to get some of the expressiveness that way. I'm more a player than endless editor.

I'm still a little confused as to the realities and update of the two companies but it's my understanding that the higher quality Brass is the one from Sample Modeling NOT Audio Modeling??


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 18, 2020)

its a little weird with it because of the pitch bend range being only +/- 2 on SM. That's the biggest issue for me, especially since if you hit two notes too close together it can try to bend the note instead (like hitting E and F in rapid succession)


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 19, 2020)

skythemusic said:


> Does anyone know if the SM Brass can be used fully with the Roli Rise? I'm not experienced with a breath controller but I am buying one of those for other MPE instruments so I thought I might be able to get some of the expressiveness that way. I'm more a player than endless editor.
> 
> I'm still a little confused as to the realities and update of the two companies but it's my understanding that the higher quality Brass is the one from Sample Modeling NOT Audio Modeling??


The concensus seems to be SM brass > AM brass. I think you can use the Roli nicely. I just got a Seaboard block, and have tried it with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds and I quite like the way I can play, bend and aftertouch stuff into total oblivion. My guess is, with some CC tweaking SM can do the same.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 19, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> The concensus seems to be SM brass > AM brass. I think you can use the Roli nicely. I just got a Seaboard block, and have tried it with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds and I quite like the way I can play, bend and aftertouch stuff into total oblivion. My guess is, with some CC tweaking SM can do the same.



the issue is, like I said - the pitch bend range can't be altered beyond +/-2 with SM - and this simply isn't optimal for the seaboard because of the way it can misread incoming notes. 

Chris hein, audio modelling(although brass didn't exist then, i had woods and strings) and even play worked bettter than SM with the roli seaboard. 

you don't need the +/- 48 pitch bend range, but 12 makes things work much smoother. 

for instance, if you were to play E >F >G connected with the +/-2, it had a tendency to play E, bend to F, then bend to F# and fall short of the G because it was actually just bending E the whole time. 

I originally got the seaboard when I was more into the SM style instruments but SM was ironically my biggest disappointment when actually using the seaboard. Everything else worked well... like I said - I had better luck using hollywood brass XD.


----------

