# Spitfire bringing out libraries fast but ignoring problems in the ones that are already out



## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

I know this place is full of Spitfire fanboys so I'm sure they'll be some disagreements. 
Anyways, another big lib is announced today. An Albion library.

My question to Spitfire is why are so many products being released when there are still many things that need to be fixed with other products.

The new Spitfire player has quite a few issues as many here keep posting. Seems they are getting fixed at a snails pace.

My own personal beef is with the Studio Woodwinds. At first...I thought maybe Spitfire would fix the single mic issue, but now I'm thinking its never going to happen...and because of that, I regret the purchase.....and for the record there are very few purchases I regret making in the VI sample world.

I think it is pretty much in universal agreement now that the single tree mic for the Core was a terrible idea. It is near impossible to position the instrument in a mix. *The price is good and I have no issues with only 1 mic. But it should be a MIXED mic.* Would it really be that much trouble to have an update and change the single mic to a MIXED mic instead of the TREE mic?

I decided to look at as many other 'budget' or 'core' libs as I could find. They all come with mixed mics. Even EW comes with the mixed mic in the Gold edition. What on earth made Spitfire think a single tree mic was a good idea?....and with so many people here complaining about it, why isn't there an update with a mixed mic? 

Obviously too busy bringing out new libs with problems that won't be fixed either. It seems from listening to others here that the Studio Woodwinds sound nice in the PRO edition....and that's great. I had the upgrade on my Wishlist this Christmas but decided against it because why pay more money when a proper mixed mic would have been good enough for me? I felt that I was forced to upgrade in order to get a usable library and I don't think that is fair.


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## Guffy (Jan 7, 2020)

I don't think it'd be smart to update it to a brand new 'mixed' mic when there could be alot of people out there enjoying the tree only, and already made it fit their template. This is why there's a pro version.
Maybe do some more digging or wait a bit to hear if it's really what you're after before buying a new library next time.
And no, EW gold comes with either mid or main mics, neither of which is a 'mixed' mic.

Spitfire is quite big by now, so i'm sure they're still working on the important issues while also creating new libraries. Different teams, different roles. 
And everyone needs to keep the cash flowing.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Guffy said:


> And no, EW gold comes with either mid or main mics, neither of which is a 'mixed' mic.



My mistake, but I haven't had issues positioning instruments with EW, so a main mic seems to work.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Guffy said:


> I don't think it'd be smart to update it to a brand new 'mixed' mic when there could be alot of people out there enjoying the tree only,



I've been pretty up on all the Studio Woodwinds topics here since before it was released. Unless you're talking about a different message board, I don't remember more than a couple people here being happy with the Tree mic.


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## Guffy (Jan 7, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> I've been pretty up on all the Studio Woodwinds topics here since before it was released. Unless you're talking about a different message board, I don't remember more than a couple people here being happy with the Tree mic.


It would appear it usually is the dissatisfied customer that tends to complain on the internet yes.
I don't know, but i'm sure there are some people out there using it and happy with it. Could be wrong, i don't know the lib


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## CT (Jan 7, 2020)

I certainly don't think Tree 1 was the best choice for a single-mic library, but it's hardly unusable, and I would not expect them to revise the entire product. 

Also, why are you trying to position anything? It's all already positioned!


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

miket said:


> I certainly don't think Tree 1 was the best choice for a single-mic library, but it's hardly unusable, and I would not expect them to revise the entire product.
> 
> Also, why are you trying to position anything? It's all already positioned!



Trying to position it with my mix. The tree mic regardless of reverb doesn't sound right.


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## CT (Jan 7, 2020)

I agree that it's a difficult mic to add additional tail to.


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## NoamL (Jan 7, 2020)

Didn't they just add 60gb of free, new samples to Hans Zimmer Strings?

I'm no spitfire defender but the problem when people talk about fixing libraries is they tend to mean 3 different things...

Fixing actual bugs in programming & glitched samples (which imo is the only legit reason to use the "fix it!" language)

Requesting what is in practice an expansion of the library ("Fixing" HZS to add more string shorts)

Or requesting what is in practice a re-do of the library ("Fixing" the dynamics in BBCSO solo horn).

People should have realistic expectations about what can be fixed. If it requires re booking the hall, re booking the musicians, setting up all the mics and recording & editing gigabytes more of samples, maybe it's not a very realistic fix to expect.

Your issue with SSTW's single mic isn't even any of these, you just want to have all the mics in a mixed format; Spitfire were pretty clear in their product descriptions about the difference between these two products.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

NoamL said:


> People should have realistic expectations about what can be fixed. If it requires re booking the hall, re booking the musicians, setting up all the mics and recording & editing gigabytes more of samples, maybe it's not a very realistic fix to expect.
> 
> Your issue with SSTW's single mic isn't even any of these, you just want to have all the mics in a mixed format; Spitfire were pretty clear in their product descriptions about the difference between these two products.



It would not take a rebooking of the hall. A big part of the price difference is gigabytes in data. The pro is 10 times the core in data size. Some of that is from having more instruments and articulations...most of it is because of the many mics. Mixing 3 or 4 mics and making a mixed mic would still be the same amount of gigabytes as the tree mic...or at least pretty close.

Yes, I agree Spitfire made it clear the difference in the two products but no one thought the single mic would be that bad, and there were more than enough here who complained about it being the craps. You'd think they would want to fix that....reason being again that few people here have much good to say about their core version.
If Studio Woodwinds Core were my product with the amount of complaints about the mic that have been said here....I would want to make it right. Mixing a few mics and replacing the tree mic would not take that long to do.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Or requesting what is in practice a re-do of the library ("Fixing" the dynamics in BBCSO solo horn).



Which is what we have here. If a VI sucks....your rep suffers....fix it...make it right...you're customers will love you.

Apart from the mic choice, I actually love this libarary. That's what really irks me. Anyone can see that a tonne of thought went into it. The amount of content for price is more than fair.....and what do they do? They ruin all that hard work with a terrible choice of mic for the core version.


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## Spectator (Jan 7, 2020)

For me its = 40% Content, 60% Marketing


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## Mike Fox (Jan 7, 2020)

Being a recent adopter of SSS and SCS, I can definitely say that i would love to see some updates!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 7, 2020)

I get that the OP doesn't like the tree mic, but wouldn't changing the winds mic mix cause issues when combining with Core versions of strings and brass?


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## Olfirf (Jan 7, 2020)

I think the whole SF studio series is a pretty bad one. Honestly, if you listened to some of the (right) people who bought it upon release, you could have known that. Expecting Spitfire to really work on a whole library that did not turn out so well is not realistic - it would pretty much mean to record it again. They were very committed for their first orchestral library (sable), but after that they probably realized they had to release products much more quickly in order to make the target profit. So, they started releasing one library after the other and this has been very successful for them, hence, why should they change their strategy? It works for them. People keep buying ...  
If you are looking for very dedicated developers, look to other places. At the moment, I would say Alex Wallbank is the developer showing the most dedication to make each and every product as perfect as possible. The Cinematic Studio Series is a testimony to that, as every Volume is an excellent, almost perfect library. Sadly, there are no Woodwinds out, yet. And he will probably take some time to do that, as this is the price of perfection: It takes time and patience.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I get that the OP doesn't like the tree mic, but wouldn't changing the winds mic mix cause issues when combining with Core versions of strings and brass?




Not having the Studio Strings or Brass I can't comment. Maybe the tree mic works for those libs. I can't answer that. One would think they would have the same issues. If that's the case...perhaps I should have looked into the whole tree mic thing in those libs before buying the winds. My bad...my screw up...


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## Uiroo (Jan 7, 2020)

The idea of the core version is that you can't change a lot with the mics and need to upgrade if that's an issue.
You're telling me you watched the whole walkthrough thinking "oh that sounds unusable" and then bought it?

Also, with all the bugfixes of BBCSO since it got released and the before mentioned MASSIVE HZS extension, and the Solo Strings Performance Cello extension, and all the other updates I didn't even had time to install (SCS and tundra for example) you saying they "IGNORE PROBLEMS" doesn't trigger that much empathy, to be honest.

The reason they make new libraries is because the need to make money and people WANT new stuff.



Robert_G said:


> My bad...my screw up...


Yes.


ps: This whole spitfire-fanboy thing is essentially tribalism and maybe not such a good idea, how about we just get our arguments across instead of being like "oh you're one of those fanboys"


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> The idea of the core version is that you can't change a lot with the mics and need to upgrade if that's an issue.
> You're telling me you watched the whole walkthrough thinking "oh that sounds unusable" and then bought it?



You can't know everything by a few walkthroughs. I admit I wasn't 100% convinced by the demos but bought it anyway.
As for your comment about needing to upgrade. Upgrading for extra cool stuff is one thing. Upgrading because its the only way to make the library work is not right.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 7, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> Which is what we have here. If a VI sucks....your rep suffers....fix it...make it right...you're customers will love you.
> 
> Apart from the mic choice, I actually love this libarary. That's what really irks me. Anyone can see that a tonne of thought went into it. The amount of content for price is more than fair.....and what do they do? They ruin all that hard work with a terrible choice of mic for the core version.




The problem is with that, and we have seen it literally thousands of times here, is one person's "sucks, needs fixing" is another's "I really like it."

(Robert, what follows is _not_ directed specifically at you.)

What too often occurs on forums is EVERYBODY is an authority and expected to be treated like
one. The reality is every developer who has been in business for a length of time knows what they tried to accomplish and thinks they know how well or poorly they actually did. 

Eventually the amount of sales or lack of them tells them if they were correct, not a bunch of "experts" posting on a forum.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Olfirf said:


> If you are looking for very dedicated developers, look to other places. At the moment, I would say Alex Wallbank is the developer showing the most dedication to make each and every product as perfect as possible. The Cinematic Studio Series is a testimony to that, as every Volume is an excellent, almost perfect library. Sadly, there are no Woodwinds out, yet. And he will probably take some time to do that, as this is the price of perfection: It takes time and patience.



I own CSS and CSB....love them both. I got impatient for a WW lib and couldn't afford VSL or Berlin, so I bought the Studio WW Core at the Spring Wish list sale. I have big hopes for CSW and the sooner the better.


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## sIR dORT (Jan 7, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The problem is with that, and we have seen it literally thousands of times here, is one person's "sucks, needs fixing" is another's "I really like it."
> 
> (Robert, what follows is _not_ directed specifically at you.)
> 
> ...


What he said


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## ism (Jan 7, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> ps: This whole spitfire-fanboy thing is essentially tribalism and maybe not such a good idea, how about we just get our arguments across instead of being like "oh you're one of those fanboys"




I agree that studios winds needs at least the close in addition to the tree, and I think this is true for SSW also (which is one of my absolute favourite libraries). I feel you can get away with just the tree on the strings (I really like studio strings), but the absence of close mics is why I passed on studio winds. 


But come on, the accusations of fanboyism are ad-hominem insults. They don't help you make you point, regardless of whether you're right or wrong.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 7, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Eventually the amount of sales or lack of them tells them if they were correct, not a bunch of "experts" posting on a forum.


 I'm not so sure if I agree on this statement. Since there is no refund-option the amount of sales can't be necessarily seen as an indicator for quality. It's the same with the cinema. You pay to watch a movie, but only after the movie you'll know if it was worth it. They got your money nontheless, no matter the opinion you have about the movie. With sample libraries it's the same for me.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The problem is with that, and we have seen it literally thousands of times here, is one person's "sucks, needs fixing" is another's "I really like it."
> 
> (Robert, what follows is _not_ directed specifically at you.)
> 
> ...



I agree with much of what you say, but I don't need to be an authority to have an opinion on something I bought. In fact, I don't consider myself to have enough experience in composing or mixing to give an in-depth review on a VI. I do however have enough experience to know when a VI mic setup works with reverb or not....so regardless what I think about the library in general, I find it very difficult to place this instrument with the tree mic in a mix with reverb....and regardless of my experience or lack there of....this message board is flooded with people who have had the same issues....all being at different levels of experience.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 7, 2020)

Eek, not another thread about the Studio Series. Definitely a collection that divides. A few of the louder voices on the forum had expectations for the library that were quite different from the actual release. That coloured the discourse somewhat.

As to placing the instruments in the (core) version of the woodwinds: I find using just the tail part of a 'verb does the job. The woods are set further back from the tree mics leaving quite a bit of the room intact. But yes, sometimes I wish I had those extra mics.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 7, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> I agree with much of what you say, but I don't need to be an authority to have an opinion on something I bought. In fact, I don't consider myself to have enough experience in composing or mixing to give an in-depth review on a VI. I do however have enough experience to know when a VI mic setup works with reverb or not....so regardless what I think about the library in general, I find it very difficult to place this instrument with the tree mic in a mix with reverb....and regardless of my experience or lack there of....this message board is flooded with people who have had the same issues....all being at different levels of experience.



Nothing wrong with any of that as long as you don’t become one of those people here who get huffy and “how dare they not address my complaints.”

Maybe before your time here but I worked part time for EastWest as their Online Coordinator and had to deal with that. EW did what they did, did not what they did not, and did well before that and did well after that. My guess is that will be true for Spitfire as well.


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## Robert_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Nothing wrong with any of that as long as you don’t become one of those people here who get huffy and “how dare they not address my complaints.”



Nah...i wont get huffy...but in the future my considerations for purchasing Spitfire products will be marred from this experience. Thats how the retail world works.


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## jbuhler (Jan 7, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Being a recent adopter of SSS and SCS, I can definitely say that i would love to see some updates!


SSS and SCS, especially, have received quite a number of updates over the years. I expect another update when they are ported to the SF Player.


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## MaxOctane (Jan 7, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> Would it really be that much trouble to have an update and change the single mic to a MIXED mic instead of the TREE mic?



They could *add* a new mixed mic, but they can't just replace the current mic with new samples. Otherwise, every single person who was using the existing mic and then clicked the Update button, their tracks would suddenly sound different. That's no good.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 7, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> Nah...i wont get huffy...but in the future my considerations for purchasing Spitfire products will be marred from this experience. Thats how the retail world works.



Indeed and how it should.


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## jononotbono (Jan 7, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> SSS and SCS, especially, have received quite a number of updates over the years. I expect another update when they are ported to the SF Player.



The perf legs in SCS are currently broken after the last update and this is something I hope gets fixed ASAP. They, are in fact, currently unusable. And this is a little annoying as the perf legs are such a great writing tool. I have every faith they will be fixed.


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## filipjonathan (Jan 7, 2020)

From all this, I guess developers simply need to be transparent and update their users regularly on what they're improving at the moment and what they're planning to improve in the future. That way everyone will know what to expect. I'm not 100% sure but I think I've seen some developers do that in the past.

As for the Studio libraries, I own Studio Strings Core and I generally love the sound, but there are definitely some pitchy/glitchy samples that would need fixing. Am I expecting that to happen? Not really since I bought the library for about $150 with the student discount. Would I buy another Studio library? Also not really cause of the previous experience.


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## John R Wilson (Jan 7, 2020)

They have released a lot of libraries over a short period (BBCSO, Originals, Percussion Swarm) and now a new Albion all in the last month or two. Everyone can choose whether to purchase them or not and everyone will have their own views and feelings on this, which in effect may or may not detract them from buying more of their products. 

In my view, it would be nice if spitfire was to slow down with releasing new libraries and focused more on improving their current line of products. However, in saying this they have just recently provided a very big update for Hans Zimmer strings and have released updates for other libraries throughout the years. I believe SSO and SCS has had several updates now. So even though they are releasing lots of products I would hope that they are still very focused on improving and updating their current line of libraries and I would be surprised if they didn't continue to update and improve some of their main newer library like the BBCSO. Time will tell.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 7, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> The perf legs in SCS are currently broken after the last update


Now that's ironic! How'd they break it?


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## Sarah Mancuso (Jan 7, 2020)

SCS’s performance legatos are fixed and working well as of the current latest version, as best as I can tell.


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## jbuhler (Jan 7, 2020)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> SCS’s performance legatos are fixed and working well as of the current latest version, as best as I can tell.


That’s what I thought as well but I didn’t have a chance to go to my rig and check.


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## jbuhler (Jan 7, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Now that's ironic! How'd they break it?


They broke it in an update!


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## chocobitz825 (Jan 7, 2020)

well..if the same method works for 8DIO...


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## Mike Fox (Jan 7, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> well..if the same method works for 8DIO...


Yeah, at that rate, Spitfire will be having constant flash sales on their flagship libraries!


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## jononotbono (Jan 7, 2020)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> SCS’s performance legatos are fixed and working well as of the current latest version, as best as I can tell.



Really?! That’s amazing! Going to check for any updates as soon as I can later! Amazing news.

Well, there you go. Spitfire fix problems.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 7, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> I think it is pretty much in universal agreement now that the single tree mic for the Core was a terrible idea. It is near impossible to position the instrument in a mix. *The price is good and I have no issues with only 1 mic. But it should be a MIXED mic.* Would it really be that much trouble to have an update and change the single mic to a MIXED mic instead of the TREE mic?


Honestly, it's not that much of a difference. Have a listen, the first one is Core. The second is Pro with Tree2, Close1 and ambient. I turned it down a few db to match dynamics, other than that I didn't touch it.


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 7, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> What too often occurs on forums is EVERYBODY is an authority and expected to be treated like
> one. The reality is every developer who has been in business for a length of time knows what they tried to accomplish and thinks they know how well or poorly they actually did.
> 
> Eventually the amount of sales or lack of them tells them if they were correct, not a bunch of "experts" posting on a forum.



That is actually very treacherous ground.
The assumption that a quiet customer is a happy customer can be very misleading.

With sound libraries we often own a license to a great number of them. Many of those are being used only occasionally and rarely to their full potential. Hence we might not run into a lot of bugs or issues simply because we don't use them enough. Someone else however, in their particular workflow, is using that library much more intensely and WILL run into whatever bugs might be in there.
In this sense maybe none of my compositions would ever happen to include the note B5 of the muted 'Nose-blowing Alien Trumpet'. That note might be horribly out of tune, be panned wrong or full of audible artifacts, but I will never know it. Someone else however will. They may or may not report the bug, and in the end there is only a few reports reaching the developer. Still, the bug may be real and may pose a definite problem to those who use the library intensely enough. Those are then the bunch of "experts" who might not get a satisfying reply from the developer's support team and then take it to a public forum where, granted, the display of frustration may sometimes look out of proportion. But they may have a valid point and may not represent as isolated of an issue as it may seem.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 7, 2020)

As a business, you need a quite strong incentive to spend time on something that won’t bring in money, instead of spending it on something that will. Individual or small group-complaints just doesn’t make much sense from a developer perspective unless many people are complaining on the same thing (and by many, I mean many in the grand scheme of things).

If developers fixed everything people wanted them to, they would both risk upsetting other users that were already happy with it (as generally, changing things in existing products that people are used to cause uproar), and by doing that also loose time and money that could be better invested elsewhere (both from a business perspective and the perspective of the overall user base).

What controls these decisions in the end are partly money of course, but also the developers own overall future vision for their entire product catalog (which we as consumers often aren’t even aware of).


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## Loïc D (Jan 8, 2020)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> SCS’s performance legatos are fixed and working well as of the current latest version, as best as I can tell.


I second this ; the last update fixed issues.
That said, for runs, Perf legato is hit and miss. Sometimes wonderful, sometimes horrible. What I miss the most is rebowing.


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## axb312 (Jan 8, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Didn't they just add 60gb of free, new samples to Hans Zimmer Strings?
> 
> I'm no spitfire defender but the problem when people talk about fixing libraries is they tend to mean 3 different things...
> 
> ...



Tons of bugs in SStW which deserve "Fixing" imo. Spitfire is aware of these. But somehow their product release teams work a lot faster than the QA/ QC/ Bug fix teams....


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## Vik (Jan 8, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> If developers fixed everything people wanted them to, they would both risk upsetting other users that were already happy with it (as generally, changing things in existing products that people are used to cause uproar)


The following isnt particularly about Spitfire, but noisy samples, exaggerated portamento, sloppy timing or inconsistent attacks are all examples of issues all of us should be happy with being fixed.
The main thing I want from VI companies after a purchase are a list of known issues and an email when a new version is out, but many of them tend to not share such info, but instead send large amounts of repeated emails about sales and new products.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 8, 2020)

axb312 said:


> Tons of bugs in SStW which deserve "Fixing" imo. Spitfire is aware of these. But somehow their product release teams work a lot faster than the QA/ QC/ Bug fix teams....



Indeed they do. As I said on another recent thread, Sable-now-SCS still has 8-year-old real shockers in it that need a couple of weeks and a copy of RX to fix, but Spitfire support told me its not a priority for them.

So there you have it - if QC is important to you, its always useful to know when it isn't important to any particular company, so it can inform your purchasing decisions. But with a commercial head on, you can see their point of view as folks keep on buying stuff in vast quantities, thrilled with the very prospect of every shiny new release. The Spitfires and 8dios of the world have their place, clearly.


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## AndyP (Jan 8, 2020)

Olfirf said:


> So, they started releasing one library after the other and this has been very successful for them, hence, why should they change their strategy? It works for them. People keep buying ...


Not all of them!


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 8, 2020)

The quick answer to why there are so many releases is that Spitfire have a staff count of 50+, 3 floors of London office real estate to pay for and all the rest. That'll drive the need for a continued release schedule like nothing else.

I've never ran a company with a large employee count, but I know folks who have who all say taking responsibility for a large number of people (and their bills) puts the fear of God into you. No wonder the focus is on making new products to keep the cashflow going.

I'm sure if a bunch of users en-masse had the same complaint, Spirfire would fix it. The initial release of BBCSO is a great example of developer response. But I assume the occasional email and forum complaint (sensibly) isn't enough to allocate expensive developer resources away from new products.

There's also that thorny subject of whether Spitfire considers some of these issues to be "bugs" in the first place. But I'll leave that for others to debate.


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## Levon (Jan 8, 2020)

By continuing to release more products means they can continue to invest in maintaining their legacy products. I’d also imagine they have different teams working on their various product lines so new product introductions wouldn’t necessarily impact legacy product maintenance.


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## matthieuL (Jan 8, 2020)

One thing too bad : instead of re-balance their orchestral line (SSO), they prefer release a new orchestra advertised as balanced (BBCSO).


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## Bear Market (Jan 8, 2020)

matthieuL said:


> One thing too bad : instead of re-balance their orchestral line (SSO), they prefer release a new orchestra advertised as balanced (BBCSO).



I'm pretty sure the SSO line will receive a face lift this year though.


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## ism (Jan 8, 2020)

matthieuL said:


> One thing too bad : instead of re-balance their orchestral line (SSO), they prefer release a new orchestra advertised as balanced (BBCSO).



Updates are nice of course, but there are diminishing returns for tinkering with old libraries. While BBCSO is something genuinely new. Its sound and cohesion is build into the concept and the engineering, probably drawing on all the experience from the SSO. And it achieves something entirely new, that you're not going to get by rebalancing SSO. 


Again, updates are nice. But so is pressing forward and discovering new things.


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## matthieuL (Jan 8, 2020)

Yes, but I don't want to buy a new orchestra each year...


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## tokatila (Jan 8, 2020)

matthieuL said:


> One thing too bad : instead of re-balance their orchestral line (SSO), they prefer release a new orchestra advertised as balanced (BBCSO).



One would think that the time for bigger possible updates, like re-balancing things, is when the old Kontakt library is brought to the new player. That would seem sensible.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 8, 2020)

Bear Market said:


> I'm pretty sure the SSO line will receive a face lift this year though.


Absolutely agree. Also, I'll gaze into my (grubby) crystal ball for this one and lay down an early marker:

I'm betting more than just a facelift for the SSO. Existing users would (perhaps rightly) expect a free update and it wouldn't open the product to a new market = what's the point?

So, either a price drop or...

.. the new versions will include all the mics from the pro versions as standard. Masse will be dispensed with. Same price points. This way, the new versions appeal to prospective buyers even more and _existing SSO users have a nice (chargeable) upgrade path._ They'd also be a clear price contrast between the SSO and BBCSO.

But like I said, my crystal ball is covered with fingerprints and needs a good clean.


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 8, 2020)

I posted my thoughts on this matter in another thread, but as it fits perfectly here, I copy and paste:

--------

I really start to understand now the feeling that many of you have shared here on the forum: Instead of taking the time and fixing at least some of the glaring issues in their very current lineup (yes BBCSO I am looking at you), they seem to move on and push out new products in an ever accelerating manner.

EDIT: this does not make me less excited about the new Albion per se. I love Spitfire, have and use a lot of their their libraries and find many of them to be excellent and the best of their kind. But this point bugs me. I kind of understand the "shell out more products, sell more, get bigger, and growth is necessary in order to survive in a very competitive market" argument. But I believe it's a false dichotomy (that kind of reflects the modern times and associated short-term oriented thinking).

a) simply from a musicians and customers perspective, and

b) also for their own welfare as a company in the long term. Quality (and therefore justified higher price points) trumps quantity and a growing bunch of users of older products with partially unfixed issues that become more and more unsatisfied because of this. Sustainability and an enthusiastic fellowship of customers are, in my view, a more viable long term strategy, also and especially from an economical perspective. History and logic have clearly proven that in my opinion.

---------

I wrote Spitfire some of my concerns regarding some of the in my view most important issues with BBCSO. And today I got a lengthy response. At least, they are listening, and it seems that they are incorporating at least some of our feedback. I appreciate that very much.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 8, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> That is actually very treacherous ground.
> The assumption that a quiet customer is a happy customer can be very misleading.
> 
> With sound libraries we often own a license to a great number of them. Many of those are being used only occasionally and rarely to their full potential. Hence we might not run into a lot of bugs or issues simply because we don't use them enough. Someone else however, in their particular workflow, is using that library much more intensely and WILL run into whatever bugs might be in there.
> In this sense maybe none of my compositions would ever happen to include the note B5 of the muted 'Nose-blowing Alien Trumpet'. That note might be horribly out of tune, be panned wrong or full of audible artifacts, but I will never know it. Someone else however will. They may or may not report the bug, and in the end there is only a few reports reaching the developer. Still, the bug may be real and may pose a definite problem to those who use the library intensely enough. Those are then the bunch of "experts" who might not get a satisfying reply from the developer's support team and then take it to a public forum where, granted, the display of frustration may sometimes look out of proportion. But they may have a valid point and may not represent as isolated of an issue as it may seem.



Yep, under-reporting of bugs is a serious problem for developers on this forum.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.


----------



## ism (Jan 8, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Yep, under-reporting of bugs is a serious problem for developers on this forum.
> 
> Thanks, I needed a good laugh.



Don't forget the companion argument that what developers need to get better is more user complaining more loudly.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Jan 8, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Yep, under-reporting of bugs is a serious problem for developers on this forum.
> 
> Thanks, I needed a good laugh.


Whilst this did make me chuckle, Wunderhorn makes a couple of good points. I've abandoned products before due to bugs but never once reported them or publicly complained. I just...moved on.

But yep, the whole "calling developers to account" culture on public forums isn't something I'm a fan of.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 8, 2020)

ism said:


> Updates are nice of course, but there are diminishing returns for tinkering with old libraries.



Indeed so. But happily there are other ways of doing business - quanitity over quality is not a universal law, thankfully.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 8, 2020)

ism said:


> Don't forget the companion argument that what developers need to get better is more user complaining more loudly.



Stop, you’re killing me. 😂


----------



## gamma-ut (Jan 8, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> My own personal beef is with the Studio Woodwinds. At first...I thought maybe Spitfire would fix the single mic issue, but now I'm thinking its never going to happen...and because of that, I regret the purchase.....and for the record there are very few purchases I regret making in the VI sample world.
> 
> I think it is pretty much in universal agreement now that the single tree mic for the Core was a terrible idea. It is near impossible to position the instrument in a mix.



This isn't a bug. It's not exactly a feature. But it's not a bug.

It's the result of a presumably commercial decision that, for the relatively low price point chosen for Studio Core there would be one mic and the one mic chosen was one that's representative of a target application - reconstructing a small, full orchestra in a space that isn't a hall but isn't an isolated cubicle either.

The result: if any single instrument is exposed, it sounds like it has too much room around it. In the context of a full orchestral arrangement, it sounds OK.

The problem starts with a difference in expectations between what Spitfire offers and what a user might expect given the name "Studio Strings/Woodwind/Brass". Spitfire could probably have saved a certain amount of heartache by offering maybe a close mic in addition to the tree for anyone who wants to place instruments in a specific space that wasn't the original. Then again, the Pro package is sold on the basis that this is the one that provides much deeper control.

From my perspective, the problem with Pro is that it has too many flippin' mics that eat up a sizeable amount of SSD space with no way to prune them off. However, this is the package that Spitfire offers for much deeper control vs the Core, which can seem gimped if you're not using it in that one target application.


----------



## Bear Market (Jan 8, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> my crystal ball is covered with fingerprints and needs a good clean.



My crystal ball is not in a better state than yours, I'm afraid. But dare one hope for an overhaul of the sample pool (I would love some tighter shorts for one thing) and some polished scripting? 

As an owner of the full SSO package save for the SWW mic expansion, I'd be fine with an upgrade cost as long as within reason.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso (Jan 8, 2020)

I would be very annoyed if an SSO update was locked into the standalone player. My experiences with the Spitfire player versus my experiences with Kontakt make anything that runs in the SF player a very hard sell for me.

If such an update happens, I'll likely be clinging to my Kontakt versions of SCS and SSW for a long time, like how some EastWest users keep their Kontakt versions of certain older libraries to avoid having to use PLAY.


----------



## zimm83 (Jan 8, 2020)

Kontakt ;!!!!!!;


----------



## Loïc D (Jan 8, 2020)

matthieuL said:


> Yes, but I don't want to buy a new orchestra each year...


Sacrilege !
It’s exactly the purpose of Vi-C


----------



## mralmostpopular (Jan 9, 2020)

I posted a bad sample that I found on the BBCSO thread. I’ve had some back and forth conversation with someone from support about it. They’re definitely working on issues. It just takes time. Not everything will be addressed, but that’s some of what you get with purchasing libraries right now. It’s not specific to Spitfire.


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## jononotbono (Jan 12, 2020)

Ok, so I finally had a chance to update SCS to the latest update, the Perf Legs still aren't fixed. I've updated SCS. Batch resaved the library. I've reloaded all the samples (for the Perf Leg Patches). I can very clearly hear the release tails cutting out. Here's a quick audio mix down...

This is Violins 1 Perf Leg


----------



## Nemoy (Jan 12, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Ok, so I finally had a chance to update SCS to the latest update, the Perf Legs still aren't fixed. I've updated SCS. Batch resaved the library. I've reloaded all the samples (for the Perf Leg Patches). I can very clearly hear the release tails cutting out. Here's a quick audio mix down...
> 
> This is Violins 1 Perf Leg


I definitely hear the tails cutting out on SCS for the Perf Legs. This makes it unusable for sure. Have you already contacted Spitfire live support? Send them the mp3 so they can hear for themselves as well. Thanks for sharing this so we can hear this glitch.


----------



## VivianaSings (Jan 12, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The reality is every developer who has been in business for a length of time knows what they tried to accomplish and thinks they know how well or poorly they actually did.



Exactly. Most developers know where they fell short - just like how a musician knows where they screwed up in a performance. 

It's kind of how when Spitfire released that clunker, HZ Piano, and then they ran to the youtube video and disabled comments, which is something they never do for their videos. That's a massive red flag right there. They knew it was a sh!t-on-a-shingle, but they probably couldn't afford to not release the library after everything they spent developing it, so it was better to just release a substandard library and try to silence buyers as much as possible on whatever channels they had control of so they could get some - any - return on that library before word really got around and sales fell off a cliff.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Jan 13, 2020)

Nemoy said:


> I definitely hear the tails cutting out on SCS for the Perf Legs. This makes it unusable for sure. Have you already contacted Spitfire live support? Send them the mp3 so they can hear for themselves as well. Thanks for sharing this so we can hear this glitch.



I also have this and have seen various threads mentioning it. They must be well aware of it. I suspect that really most users do not notice it because they are not "power users". 

Jokingly, the response of the Spitfire support reminds me a bit of the Microsoft support: "Thank you for your message. We will forward this to the devs. Did you install all updates? Did you restart your computer?" etc., and then dead silence and nothing happens.


----------



## AndyP (Jan 13, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Ok, so I finally had a chance to update SCS to the latest update, the Perf Legs still aren't fixed. I've updated SCS. Batch resaved the library. I've reloaded all the samples (for the Perf Leg Patches). I can very clearly hear the release tails cutting out. Here's a quick audio mix down...
> 
> This is Violins 1 Perf Leg


That sounds horrible.


----------



## Nemoy (Jan 13, 2020)

AndyP said:


> That sounds horrible.


It does sound very bad. And this is one of their most expensive libraries too and a flagship product. Unacceptable!


----------



## AndyP (Jan 13, 2020)

Nemoy said:


> It does sound very bad. And this is one of their most expensive libraries too and a flagship product. Unacceptable!


Obvious problems like this should be fixed by manufacturers asap. 

I don't know of any other manufacturer except Spitfire and 8Dio that produces so many new libraries in such a short time.
This ties up resources and there is always the danger of getting bogged down.

I understand the pressure to sell products and make money. Bugfixing doesn't make money at first, but it helps to improve a product and its reputation.


----------



## Nemoy (Jan 13, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Obvious problems like this should be fixed by manufacturers asap.
> 
> I don't know of any other manufacturer except Spitfire and 8Dio that produces so many new libraries in such a short time.
> This ties up resources and there is always the danger of getting bogged down.
> ...


And this library is like almost 8 years old now and gone through a few iterations. I am in disbelief that through all this time, this glitch is still here now in 2020, a new decade!!


----------



## SpitfireSupport (Jan 13, 2020)

Hi guys, the performance legato issue was unfortunately something we missed in a very recent update. This was spotted within hours and should be addressed in the latest version. Reading the above comments I'll confirm with the team that this has been made live, otherwise please do contact us and we can send out the patches as a hotfix.

Luke


----------



## blue5 (Jan 13, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Ok, so I finally had a chance to update SCS to the latest update, the Perf Legs still aren't fixed. I've updated SCS. Batch resaved the library. I've reloaded all the samples (for the Perf Leg Patches). I can very clearly hear the release tails cutting out. Here's a quick audio mix down...
> 
> This is Violins 1 Perf Leg



This was actually fixed in the latest update. One of the previous updates broke perf legato patches, but they fixed it in the latest one before xmas. If you're sure you have the latest update, you should contact the support


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 13, 2020)

blue5 said:


> This was actually fixed in the latest update. One of the previous updates broke perf legato patches, but they fixed it in the latest one before xmas. If you're sure you have the latest update, you should contact the support



I updated SCS just before recording that example.


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## jbuhler (Jan 13, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Ok, so I finally had a chance to update SCS to the latest update, the Perf Legs still aren't fixed. I've updated SCS. Batch resaved the library. I've reloaded all the samples (for the Perf Leg Patches). I can very clearly hear the release tails cutting out. Here's a quick audio mix down...
> 
> This is Violins 1 Perf Leg


I printed some stems a couple of days ago and noticed a similar issue on runs that wasn't there the last time I did this or even when I was doing the midi programming. So I'm not sure what's up. Fortunately in the context of the other instruments it's not really noticeable.



SpitfireSupport said:


> Hi guys, the performance legato issue was unfortunately something we missed in a very recent update. This was spotted within hours and should be addressed in the latest version. Reading the above comments I'll confirm with the team that this has been made live, otherwise please do contact us and we can send out the patches as a hotfix.
> 
> Luke



I'm not seeing an update for the SCS in SF Audio Downloading App.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso (Jan 13, 2020)

It's definitely been fixed. It was working initially, then a recent bad update introduced the bug, and then it was patched out in another update. It sounds like the latest update didn't go through properly for you for some reason.

Go to the Chamber Strings page within the Spitfire Audio downloader app, and click the gear next to the "Installed" button. Click "Reset" and try "Reset Latest Update". Hopefully that'll fix it on your end.


----------



## axb312 (Jan 13, 2020)

SpitfireSupport said:


> Hi guys, the performance legato issue was unfortunately something we missed in a very recent update. This was spotted within hours and should be addressed in the latest version. Reading the above comments I'll confirm with the team that this has been made live, otherwise please do contact us and we can send out the patches as a hotfix.
> 
> Luke



What about the rest of your libs?


----------



## SpitfireSupport (Jan 13, 2020)

axb312 said:


> What about the rest of your libs?


We are regularly releasing updates. With over 70 commercial libraries you may not notice all of them, but we are! New releases do not prevent us from updating existing releases, and this has never been the case.

On a similar note, and to be clear to anyone that is unaware as I believe we mentioned this one in the past: There's sometimes a bit of a "bystander effect" on forums where it's easy to assume that someone else has already reported an issue. If you do find something, please absolutely let us know directly - if nothing else, when we have two or more issues of seemingly similar priority, the one with the most reports will be looked at first.

Luke


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 13, 2020)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> It's definitely been fixed. It was working initially, then a recent bad update introduced the bug, and then it was patched out in another update. It sounds like the latest update didn't go through properly for you for some reason.
> 
> Go to the Chamber Strings page within the Spitfire Audio downloader app, and click the gear next to the "Installed" button. Click "Reset" and try "Reset Latest Update". Hopefully that'll fix it on your end.



It’s not fixed for me. I updated then tried it and what I posted is what is still happening. When I have some time later I shall email the good people of Spitfire.


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 13, 2020)

AndyP said:


> That sounds horrible.



Not if you’re into Aphex Twin.


----------



## D Halgren (Jan 13, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Not if you’re into Aphex Twin.


Sounds awesome then!


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## Loïc D (Jan 13, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Not if you’re into Aphex Twin.


Mind to share your midi so that I can try on my side?
I’ve been programming lots of runs lately using Perf Legato and didn’t notice those issues.
That said, Perf legato needs some adjustments to sound right, both modulation, vibrato, velocity & note length. 
There’s a kind of sweet spot to find.
It tends to sound bad when I program it badly or when I write parts that string players would spit at me for...


----------



## axb312 (Jan 13, 2020)

SpitfireSupport said:


> We are regularly releasing updates. With over 70 commercial libraries you may not notice all of them, but we are! New releases do not prevent us from updating existing releases, and this has never been the case.
> 
> On a similar note, and to be clear to anyone that is unaware as I believe we mentioned this one in the past: There's sometimes a bit of a "bystander effect" on forums where it's easy to assume that someone else has already reported an issue. If you do find something, please absolutely let us know directly - if nothing else, when we have two or more issues of seemingly similar priority, the one with the most reports will be looked at first.
> 
> Luke



I think I missed the update to Studio Woodwinds, whose bugs I had reported more than a year ago...where is it?


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jan 13, 2020)

SpitfireSupport said:


> We are regularly releasing updates. With over 70 commercial libraries you may not notice all of them, but we are! New releases do not prevent us from updating existing releases, and this has never been the case.
> 
> On a similar note, and to be clear to anyone that is unaware as I believe we mentioned this one in the past: There's sometimes a bit of a "bystander effect" on forums where it's easy to assume that someone else has already reported an issue. If you do find something, please absolutely let us know directly - if nothing else, when we have two or more issues of seemingly similar priority, the one with the most reports will be looked at first.
> 
> Luke



I wish all this were true, Luke. As you know, I reported serious problems in Sable / SCS last year and after several months you inidicated that they wouldn't in fact be fixed, even though it was purely a job of noises-off removal in RX, a pretty trivial process. Instead as I recall it was up to us to find workarounds. Again, this is an 8 year old library, the noises are not trivial. I've paid for the relaunched SCS purely to get fixes, only to find it completely worthless as still nothing has been fixed in this area, or sounds like it will be. As I found Sable more solid otherwise than SCS, I don't even have it installed.

That's informed my purchasing decisions from Spitfire ever since, as it seems demonstrably to me that QC is not a priority for the company, newer products have to take precedence. If this ever changes, please do let us know as I'd be only to happy to re-add Sptifire as a company that cares about quality.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 13, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> I printed some stems a couple of days ago and noticed a similar issue on runs that wasn't there the last time I did this or even when I was doing the midi programming. So I'm not sure what's up. Fortunately in the context of the other instruments it's not really noticeable.


So now I went back and loaded the performance legato in Kontakt and it seems to be playing for me correctly. So now I'm wondering if somehow I had an older version loaded in the Logic session I printed.


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## christianhenson (Jan 13, 2020)

Is it fair to say that this is a commercial thread about a new launch? An exciting one that I'm certain members of our community would like to hear more about. With that in mind did anyone catch Homay and I mucking around in the shed?


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 13, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> Is it fair to say that this is a commercial thread about a new launch? An exciting one that I'm certain members of our community would like to hear more about. With that in mind did anyone catch Homay and I mucking around in the shed?




Hi Christian

This _would_ be a fair point, agreed! But your are in the thread "_Spitfire bringing out libraries fast but ignoring problems in the ones that are already out_"  And as you can see, many members of your community would very much appreciate your stance on this point.

What do you think about the discussed topic of fixing long standing old bugs / QR issues?

I sincerely do not mean this confrontative, but as a very honest question. You guys are so great, open, sincere and communicative in so many other regards, and we love, love, love your products! Still the above is a real concern. How would you feel as a customer? I'm sure that a direct feedback from you to some of the guys voicing their concerns (and even very detailed concrete issues) e.g. above in this or in many other threads would be highly appreciated


----------



## Uiroo (Jan 13, 2020)

Yeah sure, throw in your ad and ignore the criticism...


----------



## rottoy (Jan 13, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> _*two*_ years ago saying "we can do so much better than *this*"... hence this new absolute bastard of a library.


Albion Two confirmed, then.


----------



## christianhenson (Jan 13, 2020)

deleted my posts... too late, too knackered.


----------



## Oxytoxine (Jan 13, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> deleted my posts... too late, too knackered.



Christian

I've read your post before deleting, and can understand your point of view. Despite posting in the wrong thread, you brought several aspects on the table that are very understandable from your point of view. They again kind of circumvented the key issue of this thread, but nevertheless - thank you for responding in such a "direct from the heart" manner, I respect that very much.


----------



## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

Even if new releases from Spitfire did not interfere with library updates, releasing new libraries while bugs exist does not look good, especially if it's the flagship libraries that cry out for said updates, and especially when you compare the amount of time it takes Spitfire to fix something VS the amount of new libraries that get released. 

There's an uneven balance of priorities that are making customers disgruntled. 

When i see posts like the one below from @Guy Rowland , It really makes me scratch my head as to why Spitfire hasn't addressed these things, or why it takes them so long to address them. It's not the customer's job to come up with their own fixes, it's the developer's.



Guy Rowland said:


> For those interested in some example glitches, here's SCS V1 standard combination legato patch:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## coprhead6 (Jan 13, 2020)

For what it’s worth, 
I got an email from Spitfire support telling me that the rest of the SSO Professional editions are planned to be released this year.


----------



## newman (Jan 13, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> deleted my posts... too late, too knackered.


That was a good post and appreciate the hard work.


----------



## Loïc D (Jan 13, 2020)

Well, TBH, when I open Spitfire app, there is often an update waiting - and I'm VERY far from having many Spitfire products. I wish other companies do the same. 

SF is a company, they need to get cash to pay wages & pay the musicians, I totally get that.
Hence the release of new products, since all updates are provided for free.
I've been in that business - totally different field though - and I totally understand Christian's point, even if I'm also eeeagerly waiting for fixes in SStW & SStB. 

Maybe a way to mitigate people expectations & criticism would be to publish somewhere (on SF site ?) a history of all updates & fixes released and give a glimpse at the future updates.

But I'm clearly not the guy to teach you about communication


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 13, 2020)

Hey Spitfire, for six years I dealt with this kind of stuff for EastWest as their Online Coordinator. Maybe you should call me?


----------



## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

LowweeK said:


> SF is a company, they need to get cash to pay wages & pay the musicians, I totally get that.
> Hence the release of new products, since all updates are provided for free.
> I've been in that business - totally different field though - and I totally understand Christian's point, even if I'm also eeeagerly waiting for fixes in SStW & SStB.


You'd think, right? Except Christian stated in his deleted post that fixing bugs and releasing new libraries have nothing to do with eachother.


----------



## 5Lives (Jan 13, 2020)

From what I see, Spitfire does post updates and fixes for their products - SCS fixes, HZ Strings massive update, BBCSO player improvements (quite quickly). Not truthful to claim they don’t. It seems that people are complaining that what THEY want fixed isn’t being fixed but that’s not really any different from any other company. We can ask them to prioritize certain things above other things but ultimately it is up to them. As they said in this thread, if more people complain about a specific issue than another issue, it will naturally be prioritized higher. Maybe not enough customers of product X have complained about issue Y then.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Jan 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> You'd think, right? Except Christian stated in his deleted post that fixing bugs and releasing new libraries have nothing to do with eachother.



Maybe not to him


----------



## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

5Lives said:


> From what I see, Spitfire does post updates and fixes for their products - SCS fixes, HZ Strings massive update, BBCSO player improvements (quite quickly). Not truthful to claim they don’t. It seems that people are complaining that what THEY want fixed isn’t being fixed but that’s not really any different from any other company. We can ask them to prioritize certain things above other things but ultimately it is up to them. As they said in this thread, if more people complain about a specific issue than another issue, it will naturally be prioritized higher. Maybe not enough customers of product X have complained about issue Y then.


It's the off-balance of updates/fixes vs the amount of new libraries being released that throw people off, hence this thread.

And according to some, Spitfire has actually stated their refusal to address certain issues with their libraries, so this goes beyond just a simple wait list.


----------



## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

givemenoughrope said:


> Maybe not to him


And that's just it. If they have nothing to do with each other, then why the hell does it take so long to get things fixed??? It's either lack of interest, or most of their man power is focused on getting the next big thing released. 

Either way, there's clearly an elephant in the room.


----------



## Olfirf (Jan 13, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Hey Spitfire, for six years I dealt with this kind of stuff for EastWest as their Online Coordinator. Maybe you should call me?


Yeah! I guess that would solve some issues ... 🙃


----------



## 5Lives (Jan 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> It's the off-balance of updates/fixes vs the amount of new libraries being released that throw people off, hence this thread.
> 
> And according to some, Spitfire has actually stated their refusal to address certain issues with their libraries, so this goes beyond just a simple wait list.



Off-balance by who’s measure though? Certain customers. So the point still stands - they want certain things prioritized / over-balanced compared to what Spitfire wants. Same with Spitfire marking something as “wont fix”. This software triage - every developer does it.

And ok, fine to complain that YOUR priorities are not Spitfire’s (using the general “your”). But to claim they don’t fix old products or abandon them outright is not quite accurate. Are they slow to fix and update though? God, yes - though quite fast with BBCSO.

I’ve done it plenty with Cubase...only took them 10+ years of me complaining to finally add a smart tool.


----------



## markleake (Jan 13, 2020)

Spitfire is just another a software developer. In my experience, they actually strike a very good balance between releases and bug fixes. I see them putting out fixes for things often, so it's wrong to say they are ignoring this aspect.

Do they have the release/fix balance right? I'd say so. They clearly have the right approach to how they triage and work on the issues. It's a fair bit better than a lot of other developers in the same industry.

Are there things in their libraries I want them to fix still? Yep.
Does life go on without them being fixed? Yep.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Jan 13, 2020)

5Lives said:


> Off-balance by who’s measure though? Certain customers. So the point still stands - they want certain things prioritized / over-balanced compared to what Spitfire wants. Same with Spitfire marking something as “wont fix”. This software triage - every developer does it.
> 
> And ok, fine to complain that YOUR priorities are not Spitfire’s (using the general “your”). But to claim they don’t fix old products or abandon them outright is not quite accurate. Are they slow to fix and update though? God, yes - though quite fast with BBCSO.
> 
> I’ve done it plenty with Cubase...only took them 10+ years of me complaining to finally add a smart tool.


I tend to agree.

There's often a disconnect between what a (disgruntled) user considers and "bug" or "missing feature" and what the SF considers the product to be and to what standard it's sampled.

With Spitfire products, one should expect a bit of "vibe" - the odd detuned sample, a spot of noise. I think it's Spitfire's sampling philosophy: The little mistakes make the sound. If the user isn't on board with that, there's the rub.


----------



## mralmostpopular (Jan 13, 2020)

I’ll state again that I’ve been working with Spitfire to narrow down one specific sample that has some extra noise. They easily could’ve said “ok thanks” when I let them know, and never done anything about it, but they’re actively working on it. That shows me that they care about their products.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I tend to agree.
> 
> There's often a disconnect between what a (disgruntled) user considers and "bug" or "missing feature" and what the SF considers the product to be and to what standard it's sampled.
> 
> With Spitfire products, one should expect a bit of "vibe" - the odd detuned sample, a spot of noise. I think it's Spitfire's sampling philosophy: The little mistakes make the sound. If the user isn't on board with that, there's the rub.


Out of curiosity, would you consider the clip that Guy Rowland posted, "vibe"?


----------



## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

5Lives said:


> Are they slow to fix and update though? God, yes



And therein lies the issue. Slow to update, fast to release libraries. That's the off-balance, and it's a general measure, not just a "certain customer" one. 

Spitfire can take whatever priority they want, any business has that right, but at some point that business needs to figure out what kind of toll those decisions are going to take, and if it's financially worth it, especially in the long run. 

Obviously, it makes far more financial sense for Spitfire to keep releasing new libraries by the dozens than it does to devote a significant amount of time to address bugs in their libraries (for now), but by your experience with Cubase, I guess it only makes sense for customers to keep complaining, eh?


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Out of curiosity, would you consider the clip that Guy Rowland posted, "vibe"?


Who knows. I listened to something earlier, maybe Guy's, but can't find it again to confirm. Like Christian said, it's late here in the UK..

Edit: I found it. The click? Sounds like a glitch, not "vibe.", but wasn't referring to that specifically.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Who knows. I listened to something earlier, maybe Guy's, but can't find it again to confirm. Like Christian said, it's late here in the UK..


No worries, here ya go!



Guy Rowland said:


> For those interested in some example glitches, here's SCS V1 standard combination legato patch:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnG (Jan 13, 2020)

IDK -- I think they do a great job, especially compared with a few other companies that come to mind.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> No worries, here ya go!


Oh dear, we're crossing the streamers! I edited my previous post. Thanks for finding though.


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## 5Lives (Jan 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> And therein lies the issue. Slow to update, fast to release libraries. That's the off-balance, and it's a general measure, not a "certain customer" one.
> 
> Spitfire can take whatever priority they want, any business has that right, but at some point that business needs to figure out what kind of toll those decisions are going to take, and if it's financially worth it, especially in the long run.
> 
> Obviously, it makes far more financial sense for Spitfire to keep releasing new libraries by the dozens than it does to devote a significant amount of time to address bugs in their libraries (for now), but by your experience with Cubase, I guess it only makes sense for customers to keep complaining, eh?



The thing is it isn’t a “general measure”. If they fixed things in half the time, some folks would still consider that too slow. It’s just a matter of opinion.

I think customers should definitely raise concerns - how they go about it also will elicit different responses and results though. My observation is people here tend to pounce on Spitfire much more than they do other developers for the same types of issues. There’s a lot of accusatory tones and assumptions, most often misguided. Passionate appeals can be used for maturely conveying a perspective and driving change,...or can come across as tantrums by petulant children.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

5Lives said:


> The thing is it isn’t a “general measure”. If they fixed things in half the time, some folks would still consider that too slow. It’s just a matter of opinion.
> 
> I think customers should definitely raise concerns - how they go about it also will elicit different responses and results though. My observation is people here tend to pounce on Spitfire much more than they do other developers for the same types of issues. There’s a lot of accusatory tones and assumptions, most often misguided. Passionate appeals can be used for maturely conveying a perspective and driving change,...or can come across as tantrums by petulant children.



You're certainly entitled to that opinion.


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## Robert_G (Jan 13, 2020)

5Lives said:


> My observation is people here tend to pounce on Spitfire much more than they do other developers for the same types of issues.



There is a valid reason for that.
Spitfire hits all 3 red flags.

1. No returns/No refunds
2. No way to demo or try out the product
3. Most libs are fairly pricey

If youre going this route as a company, you better produce top quality and be willing to fix bugs and/or update. Cinematic Studios does this well. Even 8dio is getting better at taking care of their flagship products.

Spitfire just seems to go to the next big thing and 'many' of their libs get forgotten once the main spending spree is over. We arent talking $99 specials here. Spitfire's libs are mostly 200+ libs.. many $500+....with virtually no protection for the buyer.

Every company gets to choose how they do business, but reputation will catch up with you. This is a very saturated market...cant take the customer base for granted.

SSTW core was my first and only purchase from Spitfire and i made about 20 purchases this year. Of all of them, SSTW was my most regretable.


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## 5Lives (Jan 13, 2020)

Those three things aren’t unique to Spitfire though - and neither is the lag time for updates / fixes. OT and EW comes to mind as do smaller companies. And none of them have quite the breadth of products that Spitfire offer except EW (and yet face the same issues).

And true - reputation and market saturation will impact a company. However, I would wager Spitfire is absolutely smashing it right now and likely will continue to do so.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 13, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> There is a valid reason for that.
> Spitfire hits all 3 red flags.
> 
> 1. No returns/No refunds
> ...



I don’t know. OT gets away with a lot. They seem to get a pass.


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## Thundercat (Jan 13, 2020)

matthieuL said:


> Yes, but I don't want to buy a new orchestra each year...


Why don't Spitfire offer PAID updates with tons of new features? Probably be a lot less work than making entirely new libraries...I know I'd pay extra for additional fixes/updates.


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## Robert_G (Jan 13, 2020)

5Lives said:


> Those three things aren’t unique to Spitfire though - and neither is the lag time for updates / fixes. OT and EW comes to mind as do smaller companies. And none of them have quite the breadth of products that Spitfire offer except EW (and yet face the same issues).
> 
> And true - reputation and market saturation will impact a company. However, I would wager Spitfire is absolutely smashing it right now and likely will continue to do so.



I agree. They aren't unique to just spitfire. There isn't much I'd purchase from EW either for those same reasons. OT is interesting as it seems they are to trying to break from that sort of thing.

I've heard some issues from people with Junkie Brass Horns dynamics issues. It's a legit concern that must be dealt with considering the price of the lib, and it will be interesting to see if, and how fast, and what they do about it.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> If youre going this route as a company, you better produce top quality and be willing to fix bugs and/or update.



Bro -- I think they _are_ top quality and I've seen many substantial updates. 

Strings, winds, brass; a bunch of tuning fixes in the trombones, a large add-on to HZ strings, many new mixes and mic positions. Big updates, in my view.

I use their stuff every day and honestly, if I'm unable to produce a great-sounding demo with their libraries (and others of course), it's on me, not on them.

It's not perfect. So what? Neither is EW or 8dio or Soundiron or anybody. I just go on and make music.


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## Robert_G (Jan 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Why don't Spitfire offer PAID updates with tons of new features? Probably be a lot less work than making entirely new libraries...I know I'd pay extra for additional fixes/updates.



Paid updates in the right circumstance can be a great thing. IE...8Dio Century Strings and Brass 2.0 for $28 each. Totally fair and comes with newer and redone content


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 13, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Why don't Spitfire offer PAID updates with tons of new features? Probably be a lot less work than making entirely new libraries...I know I'd pay extra for additional fixes/updates.



I think Spitfire is interesting in making sonically different libraries, though. BBCSO sounds different than SSO. I saw some people ask the same question as to why they didn’t just add on to SSO.


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## Robert_G (Jan 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Bro -- I think they _are_ top quality and I've seen many substantial updates.
> 
> Strings, winds, brass; a bunch of tuning fixes in the trombones, a large add-on to HZ strings, many new mixes and mic positions. Big updates, in my view.
> 
> ...



Interesting though....Soundiron loves their stuff so much that they've done as many as 3 updates on some of their $50 dollar or less libraries. 

As for Spitfire, I was shocked to hear about the legato complaints on their chamber strings. That is way to expensive a library to have to deal with that sort of thing....Chamber Strings has been out long enough that it should be near perfect by now. I'm pretty sure Spitfire considers it their flagship product....do they not?


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## Mike Fox (Jan 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Bro -- I think they _are_ top quality and I've seen many substantial updates.
> 
> Strings, winds, brass; a bunch of tuning fixes in the trombones, a large add-on to HZ strings, many new mixes and mic positions. Big updates, in my view.
> 
> ...


In the grand scheme of things, I'd have to agree, but John, I'm a fairly recent adopter of SCS and SSS, and within moments of playing those libraries I spotted issues that make me wonder why they were never addressed, especially considering the amount of time they've been around for. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Spitfire (i have so many of their libs, it's sickening), and I love SCS/SSS, but I do wonder why their flagship string libraries aren't as perfected as possible by now. 

Your thoughts, good sir?


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## markleake (Jan 13, 2020)

Spitfire seem to be held against an impossible standard here. People are advocating now for paid updates? But this _is_ the model Spitfire used when developing their big libraries.


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## gyprock (Jan 13, 2020)

The problem is that we, as consumers of digital products, are far less likely to complain about a software deficiency or bug. If we purchased a pair of shoes for $100 and one of the eyelets for the lace was not seated properly, we would most likely take it back to the store for a refund. If we buy a sample library for $100 and there are bugs or the samples are sub-standard we are more likely to waiver the cost and hope for a better purchase outcome next time. We'll just put it down to experience.

Most of us are suckers for this kind of digital punishment because we are surrounded by operating systems, apps, VSTs, Google controlled gear etc. We just agree to terms that we never read and click the download button. Instant gratification.

It's as if we consider the purchase of a digital product more akin to purchasing a service. If we get a bad haircut, most of us would probably do nothing about it. Likewise with software.

Below are consumer rights under Australian law. Warranty is always provided under law, whether a supplier of a product or service explicitly provides it written down or not.

Under the Australian Consumer Law, when you buy products and services they come with automatic guarantees that they will work and do what you asked for. If you buy something that isn't right, you have consumer rights. 

If a product or service you buy fails to meet a consumer guarantee, you have the right to ask for a repair, replacement or refund under the Australian Consumer Law. The remedy you're entitled to will depend on whether the issue is major or minor. 

Under the Australian Consumer Law, you have certain rights to cancel a service.

You can seek compensation for damages and losses you suffer due to a problem with a product or service if the supplier could have reasonably foreseen the problem. This is in addition to your repair, replacement or refund rights. 

Under the Australian Consumer Law, automatic consumer guarantees apply to many products and services you buy regardless of any other warranties suppliers sell or give to you.

When things go wrong with products or services you bought before 1 January 2011, you may still have rights under the previous consumer protection law called the Trade Practices Act.


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## curtisschweitzer (Jan 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Bro -- I think they _are_ top quality and I've seen many substantial updates.



Yup.


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## robgb (Jan 13, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> I think it is pretty much in universal agreement now that the single tree mic for the Core was a terrible idea. It is near impossible to position the instrument in a mix. *The price is good and I have no issues with only 1 mic. But it should be a MIXED mic.* Would it really be that much trouble to have an update and change the single mic to a MIXED mic instead of the TREE mic?


I have the strings and actually prefer the tree mic. Might be nice to have the close mic, too, but I can live without it.


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## robgb (Jan 13, 2020)

miket said:


> I agree that it's a difficult mic to add additional tail to.


Say what? I think it's easier to add tail to.


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## CT (Jan 13, 2020)

robgb said:


> Say what? I think it's easier to add tail to.



To me, the room's smallish dimensions are very clearly audible through that mic, so adding more tail sounds somewhat false.


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## markleake (Jan 13, 2020)

@gyprock. Under Australian law, software sold under license is considered to be "goods". They aren't classed as "services" until you get up into commercial big $$$ range.

And there is no requirement to fix all defects with the software. In fact, it's the opposite. The consumer law is written in such a way to reflect what a "reasonable consumer" expects. There's a lot of protections there for sure, but *software free from defects *ain't one of them. For software, the law is usually interpreted to mean some bugs are fine, to the degree that is acceptable to the "reasonable consumer".

You can argue about "reasonable consumer" I guess, but that would be determined by a court, not us. What people present here as defects are probably well short of falling foul of the reasonable consumer test. In terms of what Australian law would require, I mean.

Australian law is pretty good in terms of protecting consumers, so I don't think you'd find other jurisdictions that would help you make a case here.

Bottom line is, this is just normal stuff for sample libraries.

Spitfire are far better than the industry benchmark. They aren't out there selling dodgy stuff.


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## markleake (Jan 13, 2020)

miket said:


> To me, the room's smallish dimensions are very clearly audible through that mic, so adding more tail sounds somewhat false.


I'd go further and say if you really dislike the room tone, you just amplify the problem by adding tail.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> I do wonder why their flagship string libraries aren't as perfected as possible



Let me put it this way. I've had the great fortune to have many pieces recorded by live orchestra, including at AIR and Abbey Road, in Los Angeles, Nashville, all around California, Canada and Tokyo. I've had, in some cases, the best players you could find anywhere.

And is the result "as perfect as possible?"

No. 

It's as perfect as I could make it given the time I had and the money we had, and given the inevitable vagaries of 40-100 people in one space. Even on the recordings I sweated over sometimes for weeks, there are notes that aren't in tune; there are noises from the conductor's breathing on the tree mic; there are chair and bow noises; sometimes noises from the conductor's baton hitting his stand; entrances are not perfectly aligned or at exactly the level I wanted.

Nevertheless, those pieces have been incorporated in games, TV and movies and millions of people have heard them, with their flaws.

*Sample Libraries and Perfection*

So what I consider "perfect" when it comes to sample libraries fits in that context: "good enough to interest and / or move an audience."

Spitfire's string libraries certainly, in my opinion, reach that.

*"Used to Walk Barefoot to School Through a Foot of Snow...."*

I realise I'm kind of a grandpa remembering that EWQLSO cost over $4,000 (and paid it), but it does help with context. Today's libraries cost far, far less and sound sooo much better.

Another way I look at it, having fiddled with samples for some time, is that, in the old days a typical string sample could do about four things: 

1. pizz,
2. short,
3. trem and
4. very basic sustain.

Today's libraries can swell, they can scrape, they can play musically satisfying, intricate figures that, not long ago, only could be played by live players. And they cost maybe 10-20% as much.

So, of course they are not perfect. But they let us write in what, to me, is a very satisfying way.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Let me put it this way. I've had the great fortune to have many pieces recorded by live orchestra, including at AIR and Abbey Road, in Los Angeles, Nashville, all around California, Canada and Tokyo. I've had, in some cases, the best players you could find anywhere.
> 
> And is the result "as perfect as possible?"
> 
> ...



the thousands I've paid for EWQL LOL. CCC 2.0, I'm a "yungin"


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## dcoscina (Jan 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Bro -- I think they _are_ top quality and I've seen many substantial updates.
> 
> Strings, winds, brass; a bunch of tuning fixes in the trombones, a large add-on to HZ strings, many new mixes and mic positions. Big updates, in my view.
> 
> ...


Best...reply...ever!


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 14, 2020)

The debate here is a little circular (surprise!), and there's the spectre now of a disgruntled, over-worked and well-liked developer which adds more emotion into the mix. The last time I was involved with this issue several years ago, I wound up getting banned and helped start another forum, so I'm quite happy to leave this particular drama be with this particular post.

It's - quite obviously - for all of us to decide what to buy and where, how much particular issues matter to us. Spitfire is a huge company (huge in our music-sphere) that has made some stellar products. Despite my issues I still use Sable routinely because it sounds fantastic. Christian, Paul and the other leaders are all deeply passionate about what they do. The company has made some huge content updates to existing products, usually for free and occasionally as a paid and rebranded update. It has a flamboyant style with marketing that some love and some don't. And like any company, they have to allocate limited resources across what must feel like limitless demand. 

One part of that limitless demand is QC on older products. I've been through the support system, the company took their time and decided that the problems I highlighted with 8-year-old Sable / paid-update SCS wouldn't be fixed. That's their decision, made deteriming all the factors of how long it would take to do, redistribute samples etc, knowing all the cold hard facts I don't. Everyone even remotely interested can listen to the posted expamples here on this thread multiple times (thanks Mike) and decide whether or not the problem is as egregious as I think it is or whether its all a storm in a British teacup.

And unless anything materially changes, that's pretty much how it is. Debates like this tend to get polorising, the truth is invariably nuanced. For Spitfire, these are difficult resource-allocation decisions that all companies have to make, for us consumers there's a lot of weighing up pros and cons with each decision that we make. Each purchasing decision is something of a jump in the dark, we all use our best judgement on available evidence which in turn adds to our overal experience of different companies to inform our next decision. What goes for one of us won't go for everybody else, or sometimes ANYbody else. Isn't diversity of thought a wonderful thing?


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 14, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> The debate here is a little circular (surprise!), and there's the spectre now of a disgruntled, over-worked and well-liked developer which adds more emotion into the mix. The last time I was involved with this issue several years ago, I wound up getting banned and helped start another forum, so I'm quite happy to leave this particular drama be with this particular post.
> 
> It's - quite obviously - for all of us to decide what to buy and where, how much particular issues matter to us. Spitfire is a huge company (huge in our music-sphere) that has made some stellar products. Despite my issues I still use Sable routinely because it sounds fantastic. Christian, Paul and the other leaders are all deeply passionate about what they do. The company has made some huge content updates to existing products, usually for free and occasionally as a paid and rebranded update. It has a flamboyant style with marketing that some love and some don't. And like any company, they have to allocate limited resources across what must feel like limitless demand.
> 
> ...




This is a fantastic post Guy! Nuanced and on point.

For me, this post effectively ends the thread.


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## Ezzy (Jan 14, 2020)

(hi  ) I like this products but don't understand how the foundations as they say are composers making tool for composers, the story is they were not happy with what was available so made this products, but ask a composer @Guy Rowland , knowing about deadlines and the stresses of delivery, to 'work around' issues in a library they made supposedly to make things better for composers. This is not true artistic offering for the composer no?


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## christianhenson (Jan 14, 2020)

Thanks Guy, whilst I know you wrote that for the community not in support of us, you make a very solid case for what is indeed the real life scenario for us. 

I have a couple of additions to make if that is OK. What your post didn't mention is time. Making samples is not like making music because it needs extensive development time. Our work truly starts when the recording stops. So issues in something we released a few months ago wouldn't have been fixed had we not done this next Albion because we were recording _that _Albion a year ago. You can see how long for example the massive Hans Zimmer strings update took because I clearly logged the beginning of the "pickup" sessions well over a year ago in my vlog? 



Look May 16th 2018

Which is why we ended our BBCSO keynote with "this is just the beginning" and why we're very much excited about all sorts of enhancements to this and MANY MANY other existing libraries will be coming this year. We just finished a day doing some new recordings for Albion ONE for example.

We have over the past 3 years created the most amazing CX department (I long way from grumpy emails back from me) which is pushing Spitfire to improve its QA and to really shout about these updates when they come out. We don't make enough of a song and dance about these IMHO. But we do listen, you know we do, because I'm still here, I'm also all over comments on all of our social outputs. 

I think another thing we don't sing and dance about is that PT and I have committed to keeping Spitfire private. So no massive floatation no exit, which means we get to do stuff that companies with shareholders don't get to do, Composer Magazine, Pianobook, weird walks in parks and over bridges, SA Recordings, LABS, insanely expensive pickups with Hans Zimmer that we give away for no additional cash. 

My final point, and one that we're re-educating ourselves about at Spitfire, and I guess as a composer is I DON'T USE all of Spitfire's products, I wish I could but I have my go-to workhorses and new additions that I love. I don't use the Bernard Herrmann library but know (because I speak to many) that it is the secret weapon of many composers in LA and with a whole raft of computer games composers. I designed and came up with the concept of Tundra but haven't found use for it until this year. Boy was I jealous hearing what you were doing with it, unfortunately Scandi Noir is not something asked of "comedy boy" Henson.

So I think its really important to assert that we don't expect our amazing customer base to buy everything we make, there are horses for courses, and you'll see with this Albion release it very much fits into our commitment to making composers lives more fun more inspiring and easier! But our libraries are our babies and we do try and keep them fed and healthy so expect all sorts of improvements to all sorts of libraries soon, BUT IT DOES TAKE TIME, so all I beg is you keep talking to us and keep the faith because we love composers and want the best for all of us.

Much love as always.

C.


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## robgb (Jan 14, 2020)

markleake said:


> I'd go further and say if you really dislike the room tone, you just amplify the problem by adding tail.


All of these things can be corrected to some degree. But since so much if Spitfire's stuff has hall sound baked in, the drier sound in studio core makes mixing easier not harder.


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## Hanu_H (Jan 14, 2020)

I think that one thing that also rubs some folks the wrong way is the marketing. Always when Spitfire releases a new library it's revolutionary and "next chapter" or what ever is used to sell the library. If you just bought an expensive library that still has some bugs or flaws and next month they announce a new library that is marketed as such, you might feel that the library you just bought is not gonna get any love. That is of course not the case most of the time, but it might feel that way. I have said it before but I think that Spitfire has become the Apple of sample industry, they have to make a lot of libraries to keep the money coming and it's not about the best library anymore, it's about the money spent in the library vs the sales game now. And all of that is understandable when you have such a huge staff behind it all. Then there is these smaller companies that will build their libraries again from the ground up to please customers. But most of the time they will not make a lot of money with it and will not produce as many libraries as Spitfire.


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## I like music (Jan 14, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> I agree. They aren't unique to just spitfire. There isn't much I'd purchase from EW either for those same reasons. OT is interesting as it seems they are to trying to break from that sort of thing.
> 
> I've heard some issues from people with Junkie Brass Horns dynamics issues. It's a legit concern that must be dealt with considering the price of the lib, and it will be interesting to see if, and how fast, and what they do about it.



I'd only disagree on one point here, which is that with EW you have the composer cloud, which I think is a great way to test drive libraries before making a commitment. I'd put that as a green flag.

I bought their HW series based on the fact that I was getting enough mileage out of the composer cloud.

Unless I misread your post, this is an area where they are ahead of most other companies.


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## christianhenson (Jan 14, 2020)

Hi Hanu and I like.

Yes, I think this is what I'm trying to get at when talking about not every horse is for every course. This next Albion is not revolutionary it is the next chapter in the Albion series, the first for 3 years. The BBCSO was something insanely mega for us because it was insanely mega, a massive new partnership, new band, new space, and our biggest undertaking. I think us being excited about our releases is possibly at fault here but something I don't see changing soon I'm afraid. We did the studio range because that is what people were asking for. But those who didn't want it didn't have to buy it. And n order to do it we grew our team so we could still keep making stuff in the hall as well as these new spaces. I guess its like having children you don't love the youngest one because they're cuter and fresher you grow a new heart for each one and that's what, after sometimes years of investment and commitment, we do for our libraries. People like our enthusiasm because it is authentic not a faux cynical way of cheating people into buying new products. Some light up people's imagination, say for example, LCO Textures we had no idea something as unconventional as that would be one of our biggest hits, and some less so. But we don't think less of either as for someone we know it can be their secret weapon. I met a massive AAA composer in Japan last year and when I asked him what Spitfire library he liked best he answered "Steel Drums". Good on him. And great that a diversity of products gives us a diversity of palettes that means we're not all ostinatoing with the same drum.

Another point here is that the extent of our R&D means that discoveries we make say with Kepler orchestra then role forward to say something we're doing with Olafur, or indeed something we learn by working with him then gets fed into an update to something else. We all benefit from remaining productive, creative and inventive.

and to I like music. The subscription model, its tricky we bring this up at every board meeting but PT and I see ourselves as primarily a AAA pro brand and a fundamental shift in our business model could prove fatal to our business. It seems to be working this way for now but WE ARE investigating all sorts of ways of rewarding composers who wish to commit to multiple purchases with us as best we can.

Thanks again.

C.


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## I like music (Jan 14, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> Hi Hanu and I like.
> 
> Yes, I think this is what I'm trying to get at when talking about not every horse is for every course. This next Albion is not revolutionary it is the next chapter in the Albion series, the first for 3 years. The BBCSO was something insanely mega for us because it was insanely mega, a massive new partnership, new band, new space, and our biggest undertaking. I think us being excited about our releases is possibly at fault here but something I don't see changing soon I'm afraid. We did the studio range because that is what people were asking for. But those who didn't want it didn't have to buy it. And n order to do it we grew our team so we could still keep making stuff in the hall as well as these new spaces. I guess its like having children you don't love the youngest one because they're cuter and fresher you grow a new heart for each one and that's what, after sometimes years of investment and commitment, we do for our libraries. People like our enthusiasm because it is authentic not a faux cynical way of cheating people into buying new products. Some light up people's imagination, say for example, LCO Textures we had no idea something as unconventional as that would be one of our biggest hits, and some less so. But we don't think less of either as for someone we know it can be their secret weapon. I met a massive AAA composer in Japan last year and when I asked him what Spitfire library he liked best he answered "Steel Drums". Good on him. And great that a diversity of products gives us a diversity of palettes that means we're not all ostinatoing with the same drum.
> 
> ...



Oh, I just realised that my post might be read in the context of "subscription model is necessarily good." or even aimed at Spitfire. I work for a software company where just in order to survive, we need to get long commitments from clients, upfront. If we shifted our model to anything shorter, we'd be toast, and i have no idea how our bosses would pay salaries.

I actually think it is quite difficult, in this world, to look at a monthly subscription model for sample libraries. I don't even know how a company manages to pay its staff (especially releasing big products) without the the kind of assurance you'd get from selling the full thing, rather than on a monthly basis.

So please ignore my comment in the sense that it wasn't aimed at Spitfire. It was just to say that in my specific circumstances, I was really glad that EW was around doing its thing, since it was my gateway into the world of sample libraries.

You guys do more than enough with your Labs. And although I don't own your products (yet) I do wish the company the best. Can't be easy balancing the passion with the pure business reality.


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## Levon (Jan 14, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> Hi Hanu and I like.
> 
> Yes, I think this is what I'm trying to get at when talking about not every horse is for every course. This next Albion is not revolutionary it is the next chapter in the Albion series, the first for 3 years. The BBCSO was something insanely mega for us because it was insanely mega, a massive new partnership, new band, new space, and our biggest undertaking. I think us being excited about our releases is possibly at fault here but something I don't see changing soon I'm afraid. We did the studio range because that is what people were asking for. But those who didn't want it didn't have to buy it. And n order to do it we grew our team so we could still keep making stuff in the hall as well as these new spaces. I guess its like having children you don't love the youngest one because they're cuter and fresher you grow a new heart for each one and that's what, after sometimes years of investment and commitment, we do for our libraries. People like our enthusiasm because it is authentic not a faux cynical way of cheating people into buying new products. Some light up people's imagination, say for example, LCO Textures we had no idea something as unconventional as that would be one of our biggest hits, and some less so. But we don't think less of either as for someone we know it can be their secret weapon. I met a massive AAA composer in Japan last year and when I asked him what Spitfire library he liked best he answered "Steel Drums". Good on him. And great that a diversity of products gives us a diversity of palettes that means we're not all ostinatoing with the same drum.
> 
> ...


Christian, have Spitfire considered interactive online workshops? All the Walkthrough and Demo videos are great and indeed give a very useful insight and I would like to see them continue. However in addition to these, I wonder whether some form of interactive online workshops would be of use?


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## markleake (Jan 14, 2020)

robgb said:


> All of these things can be corrected to some degree. But since so much if Spitfire's stuff has hall sound baked in, the drier sound in studio core makes mixing easier not harder.


I think this comes back to the dry/wet discussion, and from your posts I think we take different perspectives on this, so I'm not surprised you'd prefer the smaller hall.

I was a bit surprised about your preferred mic of the default tree for adding tail. It's not really what I'd call dry. In BHCT that same mic is the one I avoid a bit, because it has more room tone. So far I've found the more directional tree and other mics easier. Not that I use BHCT much.

What I'm curious about is how you go about correcting for room, if that is what you are meaning? That maybe helpful for a fair few of us to understand, including the OP so they can try to address their issue.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Jan 14, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> We just finished a day doing some new recordings for Albion ONE for example.


whoohooo!


christianhenson said:


> our commitment to making composers lives more fun more inspiring


you've done that! For me especially with mandolin swarm, orchestral swarm, BDT and Chrysalis. Percussion swarm seems like another one fitting in that scheme for me.


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## AndyP (Jan 14, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> Hi Hanu and I like.
> 
> Yes, I think this is what I'm trying to get at when talking about not every horse is for every course. This next Albion is not revolutionary it is the next chapter in the Albion series, the first for 3 years. The BBCSO was something insanely mega for us because it was insanely mega, a massive new partnership, new band, new space, and our biggest undertaking. I think us being excited about our releases is possibly at fault here but something I don't see changing soon I'm afraid. We did the studio range because that is what people were asking for. But those who didn't want it didn't have to buy it. And n order to do it we grew our team so we could still keep making stuff in the hall as well as these new spaces. I guess its like having children you don't love the youngest one because they're cuter and fresher you grow a new heart for each one and that's what, after sometimes years of investment and commitment, we do for our libraries. People like our enthusiasm because it is authentic not a faux cynical way of cheating people into buying new products. Some light up people's imagination, say for example, LCO Textures we had no idea something as unconventional as that would be one of our biggest hits, and some less so. But we don't think less of either as for someone we know it can be their secret weapon. I met a massive AAA composer in Japan last year and when I asked him what Spitfire library he liked best he answered "Steel Drums". Good on him. And great that a diversity of products gives us a diversity of palettes that means we're not all ostinatoing with the same drum.
> 
> ...


All valid points and I respect your open interaction with the user community!
Even if I don't really get warm with BBCSO, the BHCT is probably one of the best libraries I have ever bought.
Luckily tastes are different and the variety of choice benefits us.

What I like are small, reduced test patches with which one can find out if one like the sounds and script. I would even pay for that. It can't prevent someone from encountering issues that a testpatch doesn't reflect, but as customers we also take a certain risk when buying libraries.

Criticism is part of the business, and it helps and will help everyone to get better.

Thank you for your frankness!


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## jononotbono (Jan 14, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Let me put it this way. I've had the great fortune to have many pieces recorded by live orchestra, including at AIR and Abbey Road, in Los Angeles, Nashville, all around California, Canada and Tokyo. I've had, in some cases, the best players you could find anywhere.
> 
> And is the result "as perfect as possible?"
> 
> ...



Such a great post. Thanks!


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## Ashermusic (Jan 14, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> There is a valid reason for that.
> Spitfire hits all 3 red flags.
> 
> 1. No returns/No refunds
> ...



Two points, and mind you I only own one product of Spiitfire’s, LCO, which I reviewed.

Firstly, comparing Spitfire to the Cinematic company is not valid because they only have a handful of libraries.
Secondly, I used to see exactly that argument made against EastWest when I was their Online Coordinator, and all those predictions of how many customers they were going to lose went up in a puff of smoke, as I predicted they would, partly due to the Composer Cloud.

I will say that the Spitfire guys come here and publicly engage with their customer, even when they are criticized, in a way few others have. I was hired by EW at the time to specifically do that, as Doug and Nick found it too frustrating. You never see most of the developers come here and do so, do you? Where are Mike and Mike from Cinebrass? Not here. Where are Troels and Colin from 8dio? Not here. Where are Hendrik et all from Orchestral Tools? Not here? I can go on and on.

Does that mean that Spitfire should not fix bugs? no. Does that mean their ratio of bug fixes to new products is not correct?Yes, if you think so, no if you don’t.

But stop predicting their demise if they don’t heed your advice because You are wrong. I have seen this movie before and I know how it ends.


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## Banquet (Jan 14, 2020)

Please no subscription model. Rent to own would be fine, but not subscription.

Re. problems with Spitifre libraries - I was playing SCS the other day and one of the cello notes had a noticeable harsh scrape sound. I guess a lot of people would argue that should be removed but if a top player can do that while recording a sample sessions, I guess he/she can do that while playing a concert too... so do we end up with something overly sterile if we clean up every bit of noise?


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## Mike Fox (Jan 14, 2020)

Banquet said:


> Please no subscription model. Rent to own would be fine, but not subscription.
> 
> Re. problems with Spitifre libraries - I was playing SCS the other day and one of the cello notes had a noticeable harsh scrape sound. I guess a lot of people would argue that should be removed but if a top player can do that while recording a sample sessions, I guess he/she can do that while playing a concert too... so do we end up with something overly sterile if we clean up every bit of noise?


It's not so much the noise made by players (i actually like that stuff, tbh) as it is the actual glitches and playability issues that bother me. Sure, there are workarounds, but I shouldn't have to stitch the tear on my brand new jacket. This goes for any library, not just Spitfire's.


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## re-peat (Jan 14, 2020)

Psst, Jay. Say, listen. 

_Hendrix eat all from Orchestral Tools??_

It’s Hendrik, not Hendrix. And it’s ‘et al.’ and not ‘eat all’. There's a difference between the two. (Like there is between an AU and a VST.)

_


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## Ashermusic (Jan 14, 2020)

re-peat said:


> Psst, Jay. Say, listen.
> 
> _Hendrix eat all from Orchestral Tools??_
> 
> ...



Sorry, when I post from my iPhone instead of my Mac, it frequently does not go well 

Fixed.


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## curtisschweitzer (Jan 14, 2020)

Banquet said:


> do we end up with something overly sterile if we clean up every bit of noise?



Yes.


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## pulsedownloader (Jan 14, 2020)

Plenty of updates waiting to install here in the Spitfire app. Seems like great progress on the update front to be honest  New releases help to pay for product updates on older products so it should be seen as a good thing.


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## Mornats (Jan 14, 2020)

re-peat said:


> Psst, Jay. Say, listen.
> 
> _Hendrix eat all from Orchestral Tools??_
> 
> ...



Hendrix Eat All will be my new band name.


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## Ezzy (Jan 14, 2020)

It is okay no? But staying private is no altruistic decision but a business one? For there are private investors in this many million pound company. And that is great, a good business man above all else. Updates are a business model too, and that is okay too but to say otherwise some people wonder why to. That pretend email of marketing ago as example, it was not nice, the actions are different to the words sometimes


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## gussunkri (Jan 14, 2020)

Ezzy said:


> That pretend email of marketing ago as example, it was not nice, the actions are different to the words sometimes


I don’t understand this sentence.


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## redlester (Jan 14, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> I have a couple of additions to make if that is OK. What your post didn't mention is time. Making samples is not like making music because it needs extensive development time. Our work truly starts when the recording stops. So issues in something we released a few months ago wouldn't have been fixed had we not done this next Albion because we were recording _that _Albion a year ago. You can see how long for example the massive Hans Zimmer strings update took because I clearly logged the beginning of the "pickup" sessions well over a year ago in my vlog?



Indeed, and am well aware you do regular updates, all extremely appreciated. But one request I would make, if possible, is if we could have the information within the downloader app to tell us what issues are addressed in each update. Occasionally we do get this, but usually not.

This evening I've just logged in and downloaded an update to Solo Strings, which did state what the change was, and also one for HZ Piano, which didn't state what has been updated!


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## christianhenson (Jan 14, 2020)

Yes Redlester, these are all features we're concentrating on. Ezzy wow, what a memory! It was meant as a bit of fun from us. As I think I said at the time, but reaction was bad which is why we haven't done it again.... that was maybe 3 years ago? We listen.


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## Olfirf (Jan 14, 2020)

JohnG said:


> IDK -- I think they do a great job, especially compared with a few other companies that come to mind.


Names! I want names! Anonymus trash talking is a foul in my eyes ...


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## giwro (Jan 14, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> Thanks Guy, whilst I know you wrote that for the community not in support of us, you make a very solid case for what is indeed the real life scenario for us.
> 
> I have a couple of additions to make if that is OK. What your post didn't mention is time. Making samples is not like making music because it needs extensive development time. Our work truly starts when the recording stops....
> 
> C.



And, I'm gonna weigh in here, too.

If you've never edited samples and tried to make them into something that resembles a good product, you have no idea what goes into it... My niche is sampling pipe organs, and it's infinitely less complicated than orchestral stuff. A typical stop of 61 notes takes me 1-2 hours to prepare (assuming there are no gnarly issues to fix)... de-noising without damaging the character of the stop, cutting up samples, setting release points, looping perfectly... (add that amount again for every mic perspective) and then once all the stops are done, writing the code and getting a functional (and hopefully beautiful) GUI. Then, it must be flogged and tested, because after spending hundreds of hours editing the bloody samples, you're too close to it, and you've missed bad loops, misplaced releases, weird spurious noises.

Then, after a period of time, you release it... believing you've got the issues licked....

And, what would you know... some savant customer with far too much time on their hands listens to every note of every stop, and proceeds to give you a long laundry list of all the things you MUST fix NOW...

I get it. We want perfection. But, for example, I currently have 2 sample sets in various stages of development, with 3 more on the books for recording - I'm ALWAYS working on something. And, to complicate matters, last year I absorbed the products of a fellow developer... and they're not up to my standards. So, while doing all of the normal stuff, I'm going back to the raw recordings of his content and redoing everything from scratch. At least in this case, I don't have to re-do the code and GUI - just the content. I've completed one of the instruments so far - it took me 3 months, and I found over 3000 items that needed fixing...

And guess what... someone emailed me the other day with an issue I missed.

Now, in my case, this is a side business - I have a regular job that pays the bills and furnishes the benefits/health coverage... so consequently I can't go at it as fast as a regular company.

I can't even imagine the complexity of a large pool of products like Spitfire, and how to prioritize regular updates/fixes while still creating new revenue streams. My hat's off to you guys, @christianhenson !


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## pulsedownloader (Jan 14, 2020)

Banquet said:


> Not that it really matters, but that's a list of your products, not your updates. The 'Updates' tab would be shaded white if you'd clicked on it to filter for updates.



The "update" icon is visible under each product that has an update available


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## ridgero (Jan 14, 2020)

I really love and own alot of your libraries, although I’m not a professional at all. Just a hobby musician.

I have one wish: Can you please work on a HZ Brass library :D


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## Banquet (Jan 14, 2020)

pulsedownloader said:


> The "update" icon is visible under each product that has an update available


Yes, I saw that just after posting and deleted my post


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## jononotbono (Jan 14, 2020)

Some people are so obsessed with subscription models. Please NEVER make Spitfire libraries a Subscription service. 



christianhenson said:


> Yes Redlester, these are all features we're concentrating on. Ezzy wow, what a memory! It was meant as a bit of fun from us. As I think I said at the time, but reaction was bad which is why we haven't done it again.... that was maybe 3 years ago? We listen.



Yes. How dare you have fun. Disgusting.


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## filipjonathan (Jan 14, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Some people are so obsessed with subscription models. Please NEVER make Spitfire libraries a Subscription service.


I actually don't see anything wrong with them adding a subscription for those who want it. That would be perfect in cases where you need a certain library for a single project and you don't wanna spend hundreds of $$. But again, how would they 'lock' the libraries once the subscription is canceled?! Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.


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## Olfirf (Jan 14, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> But again, how would they 'lock' the libraries once the subscription is canceled?! Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.


By transferring all of their libraries to a discreet sample player with web based license and copy protection system! 

Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.


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## christianhenson (Jan 15, 2020)

I don't want to derail this thread but do we not fear subscription models as working composers. An example I would cite would be someone like Charlie Clouser who has been working on the SAW franchise for over a decade now. An editor finds a piece of temp from one of the older shows that in the director's mind fits perfectly that temp love is formed and she or he wants it peppered over the entire show. BUT the key sound that this cue uses is from a subscription service that has expired or been retired or repackaged and no longer is available. Is not actually OWNING a perpetual license to the sounds a risk to us? This is certainly what puts PT and I off the idea as composers.


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## Drundfunk (Jan 15, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> I don't want to derail this thread but do we not fear subscription models as working composers. An example I would cite would be someone like Charlie Clouser who has been working on the SAW franchise for over a decade now. An editor finds a piece of temp from one of the older shows that in the director's mind fits perfectly that temp love is formed and she or he wants it peppered over the entire show. BUT the key sound that this cue uses is from a subscription service that has expired or been retired or repackaged and no longer is available. Is not actually OWNING a perpetual license to the sounds a risk to us? This is certainly what puts PT and I off the idea as composers.


To hell with subscription services. I completely agree with you here Christian. What I rather want to see from developers are demo patches (The Kepler ones were quite cool and it's the only reason it's on my wishlist). I'd even pay for a stripped down version of a library with limited content being able to upgrade to a full version later (Embertone did it recently with their Joshua Bell violin. Also Audio Imperia with Nucleus yesterday. Soundiron did it with their string library etc.). It's a really good way to try out a library without paying hundreds of dollars (the stripped down versions I mentioned are all below $100 I think) and those who like it or need the additional content can upgrade while those who don't like it didn't spend a fortune, which in my view would stop buyer's remorse for the most parts. Sure, on the other hand you developers might lose some money from those who don't like this basic core version, but who would have bought the full version if this was the only option available to them (but that would most likely mean buyer's remorse). At the same time more people might buy this stripped down core version in contrary to the full fleshed out library. Also it's great to see you guys so active here engaging with the community. Please don't be discouraged by the criticism you guys are experiencing once in a while. I think in the end we all have the same goal, to have the best tools available to compose great music.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 15, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> I don't want to derail this thread but do we not fear subscription models as working composers. An example I would cite would be someone like Charlie Clouser who has been working on the SAW franchise for over a decade now. An editor finds a piece of temp from one of the older shows that in the director's mind fits perfectly that temp love is formed and she or he wants it peppered over the entire show. BUT the key sound that this cue uses is from a subscription service that has expired or been retired or repackaged and no longer is available. Is not actually OWNING a perpetual license to the sounds a risk to us? This is certainly what puts PT and I off the idea as composers.


Totally agree. I still use sounds released over a decade ago and it would be galling to still be paying for them.

Also, the Spitfire Amazon S3 bill would go up somewhat if you went sub.. 😅


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## Levon (Jan 15, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> I don't want to derail this thread but do we not fear subscription models as working composers. An example I would cite would be someone like Charlie Clouser who has been working on the SAW franchise for over a decade now. An editor finds a piece of temp from one of the older shows that in the director's mind fits perfectly that temp love is formed and she or he wants it peppered over the entire show. BUT the key sound that this cue uses is from a subscription service that has expired or been retired or repackaged and no longer is available. Is not actually OWNING a perpetual license to the sounds a risk to us? This is certainly what puts PT and I off the idea as composers.


Not a fan of subscription software. How about a system that allows for timed licenses of your products so that people can demo your products? Companies like Flexera can facilitate that sort of thing by integrating with your application to manage licenses: https://www.flexera.com/products/spend-optimization/software-asset-management.html


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## MartinH. (Jan 15, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> I don't want to derail this thread but do we not fear subscription models as working composers. An example I would cite would be someone like Charlie Clouser who has been working on the SAW franchise for over a decade now. An editor finds a piece of temp from one of the older shows that in the director's mind fits perfectly that temp love is formed and she or he wants it peppered over the entire show. BUT the key sound that this cue uses is from a subscription service that has expired or been retired or repackaged and no longer is available. Is not actually OWNING a perpetual license to the sounds a risk to us? This is certainly what puts PT and I off the idea as composers.



1000% correct! Subscriptions are madness in terms of longterm risk.




christianhenson said:


> I think another thing we don't sing and dance about is that PT and I have committed to keeping Spitfire private. So no massive floatation no exit, which means we get to do stuff that companies with shareholders don't get to do, Composer Magazine, Pianobook, weird walks in parks and over bridges, SA Recordings, LABS



I think that's very commendable and a good decision.


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## Mornats (Jan 15, 2020)

Speaking as a hobbyist with a rather expensive hobby here! The model I like is what Drundfunk mentioned above, a cut down version.

For example, my most recent Spitfire purchase is the studio orchestra core. Core is great for me as the extra mics will be wasted on me. I'm not sure if even use all of the articulations in core although a proper composer would.

If I didn't own Albion One and Tundra I'd be all over the £29 epic strings, woods and brass and they'd be my staple.

I wish I was starting this composing journey now and not a few years ago as there's a lot more in the "starter" category now than there was a few years ago and it's quality stuff. Spitfire have contributed a lot to this as have others. Audio Imperia's announcement of a cut down Nucleus yesterday was good news for people like me (although late for me as I've grabbed a lot of quality libraries over the years).

I don't think a subscription would work for me as some months my musical output is low, as it's just a hobby. With perpetual licences I can dip in and out as I desire without feeling I've wasted money that month. So cut down cheaper versions (with a decent upgrade option) appeal massively.


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2020)

markleake said:


> What I'm curious about is how you go about correcting for room, if that is what you are meaning? That maybe helpful for a fair few of us to understand, including the OP so they can try to address their issue.


I use a combination of Panagement, EQ and reverb sends to deal with room and reverb. If I'm looking for a lush, distant hall sound, I set the send to pre-fader. I often put side-chain compression on the send to duck the reverb and give the instrument a little more clarity.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Jan 15, 2020)

Levon said:


> How about a system that allows for timed licenses of your products so that people can demo your products? Companies like Flexera can facilitate that sort of thing


When they first showed their own player I was hoping for Ilok Integration because apart from the physical Ilok, the possibility to get 2 activations, also without the need of the dongle - in the ilok System trial licenses are a common thing


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2020)

Banquet said:


> Please no subscription model. Rent to own would be fine, but not subscription.
> 
> Re. problems with Spitifre libraries - I was playing SCS the other day and one of the cello notes had a noticeable harsh scrape sound. I guess a lot of people would argue that should be removed but if a top player can do that while recording a sample sessions, I guess he/she can do that while playing a concert too... so do we end up with something overly sterile if we clean up every bit of noise?


The noise is only a problem if it repeats every time you play the note. Then it becomes a defect.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 15, 2020)

I am not a fan of “subscription only” but I AM a fan of it as an option, so that you get to try before you buy.


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## 5Lives (Jan 15, 2020)

I personally really appreciate the walkthroughs and in action videos. Clearly they are meant to be pieces that show off the library’s strengths but that goes for any library out there. It’s nice to see what can be achieved with the samples so it gives me a bar to shoot for. Now if only they released the MIDI files / Logic projects as well...


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## Mike Fox (Jan 15, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> Is not actually OWNING a perpetual license to the sounds a risk to us? This is certainly what puts PT and I off the idea as composers.



But don't you as the developer get to decide what goes into the EULA? Couldn't you include in the EULA that anything created during the time of the subscription is exempt from being at risk long after the subscription ends?


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 15, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> But don't you as the developer get to decide what goes into the EULA? Couldn't you include in the EULA that anything created during the time of the subscription is exempt from being at risk long after the subscription ends?



I think the idea is that maybe you did something with a library, and years later want to recreate a sound, but can’t because the library doesn’t exist anymore and you don’t have it saved on a hard drive.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 15, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> I think the idea is that maybe you did something with a library, and years later want to recreate a sound, but can’t because the library doesn’t exist anymore and you don’t have it saved on a hard drive.


Ah! I'm with ya now (not enough coffee in my system yet). I was thinking more a long the copyright lines. Thanks for explaining that.

@christianhenson Sorry for misunderstaning you. I think you make a great point, but i think that would be a risk a lot of people would be willing to take, eh? EastWest's Composer Cloud is crazy popular, and really does give potential customers a try before you buy option. I suppose trial or sample based versions of the library could also be a great alternative to a subscription model.


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## jbuhler (Jan 15, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> I think the idea is that maybe you did something with a library, and years later want to recreate a sound, but can’t because the library doesn’t exist anymore and you don’t have it saved on a hard drive.


This goes under the category of: be wary of outsourcing your archiving. Libraries abandoned their physical books and journals and now are stuck with increasingly expensive subscription plans to keep their collections current. Same basic principle applies here. (That said, owning the libraries/software is also not a complete solution because older libraries/software also no longer run if they are not maintained or converted. So even if you own that library of production software from 2000, if it was copy protected or algorithmic, and the company that made it is no longer around, or they are no longer maintaining it, you may no longer be able to use it unless you also have an old working machine from the era that is still licensed and so forth.)


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## 5Lives (Jan 15, 2020)

I hate Slate’s subscription for this reason - 1) I can’t really take a break without paying more on a monthly basis and 2) if Slate goes bust, so do his plugins. I’m still using plugins I purchased 10 years ago - granted those companies have ensured they worked in the 64 bit transition, but that sort of upheaval doesn’t happen that often.


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## markleake (Jan 15, 2020)

robgb said:


> I use a combination of Panagement, EQ and reverb sends to deal with room and reverb. If I'm looking for a lush, distant hall sound, I set the send to pre-fader. I often put side-chain compression on the send to duck the reverb and give the instrument a little more clarity.


Cheers thanks. Maybe not answering the question I asked directly, but it tells me enough I think. I misunderstood you to mean you had a way to treat the actual room tone in the sample itself. I dunno, maybe setting up reverb like this per instrument would work to fix the room a bit, but it seems like it would take a bit of effort.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 15, 2020)

Not to be a curmudgeon, but the original topic of this thread was certainly derailed with a great deal of fuzzy love and a heaping portion of conflated issues. Just sayin’.

Oh, and SCS is one of my favorite sounding libraries and was reasonably priced when I bought it, but I often have to write AROUND its issues to use it, which isn’t fun at all.


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## Kony (Jan 15, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> but I often have to write AROUND its issues to use it, which isn’t fun at all


I experienced this and stopped using SCS as a consequence (except in limited circumstances). I wish I could use SCS more, it does sound great, but I don't enjoy encountering issues which have to be worked around. Given what others have said about how long this library has been available, and how quickly the reported issues could have been fixed, it obviously doesn't look like they will be. Not hating on SA, just not happy about this issue.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 15, 2020)

Well Spitfire are supposed to be re-editing and re-launching the Symphonic Orchestra this year, and many are guessing that it will be released for the Spitfire player. My hope would be that they would be re-editing the samples and trying to make it more balanced out of the box as they have with BBCSO.

Now SCS could well be considered to be part of this orchestra, as it is offered with it in a bundle, and so may well be updated at the same time.

So entirely based on wild speculation and on not one single fact whatsoever, it may be the case that since the library is being updated for the player the Kontakt version isn't going to be touched.

Of course this is more likely to be complete and utter bollocks....


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## NYC Composer (Jan 15, 2020)

One thing that interests me is the difference in QC between small and large companies. I find that many smaller companies (ISW, Indiginus, Audiobro, SampleModeling, Cinematic Samples, AudioModeling, OrangeTree, Spectrasonics etc) have outstanding quality control. Not that everything is perfect, but things are much much tighter than EW, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, 8Dio. 

I guess if you’re building a colossus and employing a lot of people, you have to move much more expediently to maintain the bottom line. As a consumer though, I am tending to look to the smaller companies these days. YMMV.


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## davidson (Jan 16, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> One thing that interests me is the difference in QC between small and large companies. I find that many smaller companies (ISW, Indiginus, Audiobro, SampleModeling, Cinematic Samples, AudioModeling, OrangeTree, Spectrasonics etc) have outstanding quality control. Not that everything is perfect, but things are much much tighter than EW, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, 8Dio.
> 
> I guess if you’re building a colossus and employing a lot of people, you have to move much more expediently to maintain the bottom line. As a consumer though, I am tending to look to the smaller companies these days. YMMV.



There is also a third category - large companies with amazing QC, which consists of Heavyocity, Output, and _maybe_ at a push, Native Instruments.


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 16, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Well Spitfire are supposed to be re-editing and re-launching the Symphonic Orchestra this year, and many are guessing that it will be released for the Spitfire player.



Hi Michael

Would you have a link / some further information regarding the re-edit of SSO? I ask because my finger is hoovering over the "buy" button, but when a relaunch in the not so far distant future is in sight, I would of course wait!  I asked Spitfire support, but got no answer :( thanks!


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 16, 2020)

Well it’s been referred to several times by Spitfire. A while ago, Spitfire put the expansion packs (extra mics) for all the Symphonic libraries on sale, and at the time they said anyone who has both the standard library AND the expansion pack would get the new upgraded one for free.

After that sale, the expansion packs were removed from sale.

Now I am guessing, but it seems a sensible guess that the new reworked SSO that was promised then, would likely be a Spitfire player library.

When BBCSO there were quite a few people here who believed that the big surprise was going to be the reworked SSO, as of course the BBC thing was a closely guarded secret at the time. Somewhere in that encyclopaedic thread is someone from Spitfire - may have been CH - saying the he reworked SSO was going to come in 2020 and not 2019 as originally stated.

The thing is though that if you go for SSO libraries now, yiu will have the kontakt version plus an upgrade path. Whereas if you wait, the old version will likely be withdrawn from sale - much as has happened with the EVO’s...

so the reworked SSO is on its way - but everything else is to some degree - speculation.


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## Uiroo (Jan 16, 2020)

I'll say that much: If the SSO rework includes proper shorts for SSS and I need to pay for that I'll be very pissed.

edit: the have proper shorts, just not crisp enough for me.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 16, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> I'll say that much: If the SSO rework includes proper shorts for SSS and I need to pay for that I'll be very pissed.


Out of curiosity, what issue do you take with the shorts currently in SSS?


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 16, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> I'll say that much: If the SSO rework includes proper shorts for SSS and I need to pay for that I'll be very pissed.



Obviously none of us knows what they’ll do, but wouldn’t it be like any other product you buy that is upgraded later?


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## Uiroo (Jan 16, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Out of curiosity, what issue do you take with the shorts currently in SSS?


Ok, I need to backpedal a bit, SSS has proper shorts, but they get to blurry when they go loud. 
I don't manage to get a nice precise but aggressive spiccato out of it, much easier with SCS. 

But that's also the difference between 60 or 16 players, I guess.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 16, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> Ok, I need to backpedal a bit, SSS has proper shorts, but they get to blurry when they go loud.
> I don't manage to get a nice precise but aggressive spiccato out of it, much easier with SCS.
> 
> But that's also the difference between 60 or 16 players, I guess.


This might be a dumb question, but have you tried the TM patch, or adjusting the Tightness in the GUI, as well as the release knob under the hood?

This is Christof's, "The Robber", done with SSS using the TM patch. Sounds pretty tight considering the amount of players.


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 16, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Well it’s been referred to several times by Spitfire. A while ago, Spitfire put the expansion packs (extra mics) for all the Symphonic libraries on sale, and at the time they said anyone who has both the standard library AND the expansion pack would get the new upgraded one for free.
> 
> After that sale, the expansion packs were removed from sale.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for this summary, very interesting and helpful!

Ouch, yes, this makes the decision more difficult again. I do not want the new player with all its issues that have been discussed to death (for me, BBCSO crashes Cubase on OSX in every session, needs repair all the time, has a severe RAM leak, and all this is not even considering the workflow aspects of the Player and issues with the samples, but just the bare, basic functioning of the player), but being left behind with old and unsupported Kontakt software is also not a very desirable prospect. Hmm, will rethink the situation. Thanks a lot!


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## Uiroo (Jan 16, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> This might be a dumb question, but have you tried the TM patch, or adjusting the Tightness in the GUI, as well as the release knob under the hood?
> 
> This is Christof's, "The Robber", done with SSS using the TM patch. Sounds pretty tight considering the amount of players.



I heard of the time machine thingy, didn't thought much of it, ah RTFM I guess :D 
I'll give it a look, thanks


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## Mike Fox (Jan 16, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> I heard of the time machine thingy, didn't thought much of it, ah RTFM I guess :D
> I'll give it a look, thanks


You bet!


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 16, 2020)

Oxytoxine said:


> Thank you very much for this summary, very interesting and helpful!
> 
> Ouch, yes, this makes the decision more difficult again. I do not want the new player with all its issues that have been discussed to death (for me, BBCSO crashes Cubase on OSX in every session, needs repair all the time, has a severe RAM leak, and all this is not even considering the workflow aspects of the Player and issues with the samples, but just the bare, basic functioning of the player), but being left behind with old and unsupported Kontakt software is also not a very desirable prospect. Hmm, will rethink the situation. Thanks a lot!



Well I'd hate to put you off because I do love the SSO. It's often been said that you should buy a library for what it is now, rather than what it may become later. When Albion I was discontinued, it was replaced by Albion ONE. Many people prefer the strings in Albion 1 to ONE, but it is sadly no longer available.

So the way you could consider this is; if you buy the SSO now, you get a time tested and well known/understood product now, and there will almost certainly be an upgrade path to the new updated version which may or may not run in the new player. (it's my strong guess that it will be running on the new player).

If you wait until the new version is released, and there is no date set yet, you do not know what exactly that library will be. As I said before, I think it will be a Spitfire player version. Also by that time, some of the reported issues of the player may well have been addressed. But if Spitfire follow what seems to be their normal MO, they may well retire the Kontakt version, leaving fans of that platform wishing they had jumped in whilst they still could.

Also Spitfire have form on libraries that have been updated - and I mean that in a good way. I had the original Albion I, and when the Epic Strings & Epic Brass & Woodwinds libraries were released, I was given them free of charge as they were built on samples from Albion I. They didn't have to do that and I thought it was a kind thing to do.

I wouldn't worry about a product being abandoned, with the notable exception of Project SAM, once a library gets a couple of birthdays in, I've rarely seen them get much in the way of updates.....

Hope you make the right decision.


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## fretti (Jan 16, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Many people prefer the strings in Albion 1 to ONE, but it is sadly no longer available.


Isn't the "new" "Originals" Series from Spitfire reusing (some of) those old Albion 1 samples?


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 16, 2020)

fretti said:


> Isn't the "new" "Originals" Series from Spitfire reusing (some of) those old Albion 1 samples?




Yes - Epic Strings & Epic Brass & Woodwinds


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## Rex282 (Jan 16, 2020)

Bad day ...my apologies to Spitfire.


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## markleake (Jan 16, 2020)

Rex282 said:


> I apologize however since this seems like a rant post.Spitfire has the absolute WORSE convoluted interface.It's like a 10 year old designed it.Symbols that cant be read poor instructions.If "some"the libraries didnt sound so good they would be out of biz.It's beginging to feel like the Trump admin where everyone genuflects before them and they just shit on your head..I'm done buying there shit until they improve on the basics....hope that was acerbic enough.


Erm, wat? Their interface is usually regarded as pretty good. Easily one of the better ones. The main complaint is the small controls, which is a valid criticism. Unless you mean their own player, not Kontakt??

Anyway, when you start using lots of different libraries in combination, the Spitfire Kontakt player always stands out to me as intuitive, not wasting space, etc. I find them one of the best to use when in the thick of composing.


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## Rex282 (Jan 17, 2020)

markleake said:


> Erm, wat? Their interface is usually regarded as pretty good. Easily one of the better ones. The main complaint is the small controls, which is a valid criticism. Unless you mean their own player, not Kontakt??
> 
> Anyway, when you start using lots of different libraries in combination, the Spitfire Kontakt player always stands out to me as intuitive, not wasting space, etc. I find them one of the best to use when in the thick of composing.


 As stated above ..bad day ..apologies Spitfire.


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## Ezzy (Jan 31, 2020)

christianhenson said:


> Yes Redlester, these are all features we're concentrating on. Ezzy wow, what a memory! It was meant as a bit of fun from us. As I think I said at the time, but reaction was bad which is why we haven't done it again.... that was maybe 3 years ago? We listen.



Forgive me everyone for jumping in on these posts in such a manner! My PHD (mercifully written in my native tongue via expensive translators, for this post my partner will do) is in something that roughly translates (both linguistically and from tiresome academic speak) to moral implications of business practice in the creative sphere, more specifically philosophical considerations for what rights to truth we have as soon as we are born. I choose the creative industries for the role the arts and humanities play in our lives and their cross-cultural recognition stemming from innate human traits.

So while my memory is in fact terrible, this marketing tactic among others found its way as a small example. While there are safeguards from such marketing tactics in European consumer law, it is interesting (from the dull perspective of the academic at least) who protects truth and to what extent, and more so how the pursuit of doing so is perceived especially in today's political climate.

Thank you for bringing up some of the company's thoughts on private vs public. I suppose for it to have context for the layman, is going public for such a company usual? Would it stop you doing such endeavors? A little research would suggest no and no but perhaps yours came up differently. This company of five directors is certainly healthy and still able to attract millions in investment and turnover.

Imagine coming across an influential company that holds back content to release later as a 'free update', or who does or has embellished their product demos here and there to present them as more realistic. Can you see how their notions and words might fall short of integrity and undermine any notions of anything but self-serving strategy? And what is it people do, if anything, to deserve to be told one thing in lieu of the truth, and indeed, does it even matter. Of course, it does not negate hard work and great products, the usual retort when called out on such behaviors; while one does not negate the other, one does undermine the other. In short, through all the nuance my argument is that in the larger picture of things, from perhaps a more philosophical standpoint, such a company has essentially failed, especially in the creative industry.

Zehra (Ezzy)


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 31, 2020)

Ezzy said:


> Forgive me everyone for jumping in on these posts in such a manner! My PHD (mercifully written in my native tongue via expensive translators, for this post my partner will do) is in something that roughly translates (both linguistically and from tiresome academic speak) to moral implications of business practice in the creative sphere, more specifically philosophical considerations for what rights to truth we have as soon as we are born. I choose the creative industries for the role the arts and humanities play in our lives and their cross-cultural recognition stemming from innate human traits.
> 
> So while my memory is in fact terrible, this marketing tactic among others found its way as a small example. While there are safeguards from such marketing tactics in European consumer law, it is interesting (from the dull perspective of the academic at least) who protects truth and to what extent, and more so how the pursuit of doing so is perceived especially in today's political climate.
> 
> ...



Interesting analysis and perspective.

For me this leaves the fundamental question unanswered: what is the metric of success / failure? Do we speak of sales numbers or market share or long-term survival of the company or any other economical measure, or more on a philosophical level (moral and ethics)? And the intriguing question of how these relate.

My PhDs are in other fields (molecular and evolutionary biology), I am not well read and intelligent enough to connect all the dots, but for me an important part of the answer to such questions can probably be found in the field of game theory, more specifically evolutionary stable strategies.

I honestly wonder whether such concepts and considerations have found their way into the boards and decision processes of big market players / companies when developing their strategies.

From the sideline and as a simple customer with very mixed feelings (depending on the hat I put on), without any knowledge of the business figures or the internals of Spitfire, I would unfortunately also come to the conclusion that the path that they are on is not a very sustainable one. It’s the same trap that many companies that expand, probably mainly driven by rather short-sighted market analyses, at an overly ambitious / fast rate, have fallen into. I am not familiar enough with economics, but, translating this idea into a different context, in biology / ecology / bionomics this phenomenon is well researched.

But maybe I understood you completely wrong. And this forum is probably not the optimal place to discuss such things, as interesting as they are, since its (and its visitors) focus is so entirely different?


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## pfylim (Jan 31, 2020)

Given up on Spitfire a long time ago. To many inconsistencies ending up wasting my time. They are good at making eye candy. Devil is in the details and life is too short.


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