# 12 Years Old. Twelve. There is hope for humanity.



## robgb (Nov 6, 2018)

Composed and orchestrated when she was twelve. Parts of it written when she was eight. Astonishing.


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## clisma (Nov 6, 2018)

Nuts.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 6, 2018)

To be fair, she's probably the offspring of some privileged, possibly titled scumbag who profits off of people's misery on a daily basis and she already inherited both her parents aloof ignorance as well as heartless, sociopathic determination, so I wouldn't get too hasty with the "hope for humanity" part.


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## artomatic (Nov 6, 2018)

Extraordinaire! I'm jealous.

Thanks for sharing. Really mesmerized. Thoroughly enjoyed 35 minutes of juvenile brilliance!


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## David Cuny (Nov 6, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> To be fair, she's probably the offspring of some privileged, possibly titled scumbag who profits off of people's misery on a daily basis and she already inherited both her parents aloof ignorance as well as heartless, sociopathic determination, so I wouldn't get too hasty with the "hope for humanity" part.


Foolishly feeding the troll , Wikipedia disagrees:


Wikipedia said:


> Deutscher was born in Basingstoke in 2005, the daughter of literature professor Janie Deutscher née Steen and Israeli linguist Guy Deutscher. Both are amateur musicians.



Being a child prodigy doesn't mean that you can skip the hard work:


Wikipedia said:


> However, Deutscher has explained that her seemingly spontaneous style of composition obscures the harder work involved in creating larger and complex compositions, where the idea or initial melody is only the first part of a much longer process. At Zeitgeist Minds, she explained: "Lots of people think that the difficult part of composing is to get the ideas, but actually that just comes to me. The difficult bit is then to sit down with that idea, to develop it, to combine it with other ideas in a coherent way. Because it's very easy to throw a soup of lots of ideas which don't make any sense together. But to sit down and develop and combine it, and afterwards to tweak it and to polish it – that takes ages..."


And she plays violin, because... _of course_ she does.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 6, 2018)

David Cuny said:


> Foolishly feeding the troll , Wikipedia disagrees:



People can't have a joke these days. But you know what, I'm gonna be serious for a second.

I knew nothing about the girl beforehand and actually read the Wikipedia article myself afterwards. Admittedly, these people probably aren't the worst kind of scumbag exploiters. But isn't it funny how the rest of what I said is actually totally true? Take just for example the whole bit about the home schooling, and the little princess being too bored and too precious to go to school, and instead enjoying the wealth and liberty that enables her to be nurtured by the princples of the 18th century italian babble-schwabble. It's every bit as obscenely aloof and untethered to reality as I joked it would be. It's the old Pierre Bourdieu thing: capital/field/habitus, right? That's how you breed yourself a little wunderkind.

Which is whatever. I'm not gonna hate on a little girl, don't get me wrong. But especially considering the today's world economy, sociopolitics and the state of grassroots everyday culture, I don't think more of this kind of exalted folks is what humanity needs, or should hope for (to circle back to the thread title).

Frankly, I also generally laugh at any notion of an artists' "hard work".


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## gregh (Nov 6, 2018)

poor little kid


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## MA-Simon (Nov 6, 2018)

Well it is amazing and depressing at the same time.

I do think the piano playing is missing a bit of weight.
But she is twelve so not her fault, just not physically strong enough yet. Just a bit more power here and there.

... the violin bruises on her neck were a bit creepy though.


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## Vardaro (Nov 6, 2018)

'Frankly, I also generally laugh at any notion of an artists' "hard work" '
It is indeed hard work - even if you enjoy it..

'... the violin bruises on her neck were a bit creepy though.'.
We violinists all have such stigmata on our necks.
(Well I don't, but perhaps I don't practice enough, and anyway I have a beard..)

And why not learn from the positive aspects rather than bitching about the negative ones.


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## Kony (Nov 6, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> she already inherited both her parents aloof ignorance as well as heartless, sociopathic determination


Have you looked in the mirror lately...?


Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I knew nothing about the girl beforehand and actually read the Wikipedia article myself afterwards.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm not gonna hate on a little girl


You just did, here:


Jimmy Hellfire said:


> the little princess being too bored and too precious





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I don't think more of this kind of exalted folks is what humanity needs, or should hope for (to circle back to the thread title).


Yeah, humanity needs more people like you to bring down what should have been an uplifting and happy thread. Some people just simply can't be happy about something harmless like a talented 12 year old bringing joy to people through her music - did you actually have an opinion about her piano concerto or what? It's interesting that you judge the composer and not the music....

Jealous much...?

Before you get trigger-happy and respond about humanity-related themes, bear in mind that the thread title implies that there is hope for humanity when a little 12-year-old girl can compose and perform such uplifting and beautiful pieces of music. Thanks.


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## Kony (Nov 6, 2018)

She also performed her violin concerto at this concert - hence the fresh bruise.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2018)

Holy shit!


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## I like music (Nov 6, 2018)

She's exactly the same as you or me, and nothing special, in that she also hasn't got a clue about what's happening with Cinematic Studio Brass. And surely this is all that matters?


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## zolhof (Nov 6, 2018)

And let's not forget her opera:



This girl is just mind blowing.


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## Kony (Nov 6, 2018)

robgb said:


> Composed and orchestrated when she was twelve. Parts of it written when she was eight. Astonishing.



The second movement has to be one of the most sublime pieces of music I've heard from any composer of any age - just amazing!


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## YaniDee (Nov 6, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Frankly, I also generally laugh at any notion of an artists' "hard work"


Yes , I'm sure she came out of the womb knowing how to play piano, violin & write music.
Maybe creativity comes easy to "geniuses" , but the majority of great artists had tortured souls, made no money, were laughed at and died young, and now we can criticize them while watching youtube (I'm talking about Van Gogh, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Lautrec on and on..)


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 6, 2018)

Kony said:


> Yeah, humanity needs more people like you to bring down what should have been an uplifting and happy thread.



Happy to help!


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## scottbuckley (Nov 7, 2018)

I feel rather inadequate. All I did at 12 was play video games. Hell, I still do!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 7, 2018)

scottbuckley said:


> I feel rather inadequate. All I did at 12 was play video games. Hell, I still do!



That's what she should be doing. Instead, she's become the victim of her old folks' self-fulfillment-by-proxy and pseudo-apotheosis desires.


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## AdamAlake (Nov 7, 2018)

There is only one hope for humanity - the synthesizer.


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## Rob (Nov 7, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's what she should be doing. Instead, she's become the victim of her old folks' self-fulfillment-by-proxy and pseudo-apotheosis desires.


This seems to be her videogame actually... and a beautiful one.


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## scottbuckley (Nov 7, 2018)

Rob said:


> This seems to be her videogame actually... and a beautiful one.


I hope so!


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## Rob (Nov 7, 2018)

We don't know her, but she looks happy...


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## chrisr (Nov 7, 2018)

I haven't watched the clips but I have a couple of anecdotes that come to mind when I think about how to approach music with my own two daughters.

1. Some years back I recorded an interview with the pianist Barry Douglas. During the course of the interview the subject of what's required of an aspiring concert pianist came up. His reply was that he considered himself the last of a generation who had the luxury of deciding to dedicate their life fully to their instrument only during their teens - at that age he realised that he would have to sacrifice his other friendships and childhood "playtime" to spend time at the piano instead. He considered that for a child to succeed now, the child would have to have a gut-feeling at the age of 4 or 5 years(!!), that they wanted to dedicate their entire life to becoming a concert pianist, if they were to have a realistic chance of doing so at the highest level.

2. Around the same time I recorded some programmes with a chap who is amongst other things a senior member of the council of the Royal College of Music in London. He was sat next to a young student prodigy at an RCM dinner event and asked how they were settling into life in London, had they made any friends, had family visited, had they seen the sights etc.. etc... he told me that he was shocked by the answers he received, which was basically that clearly the _only_ relationship the student had was with their instrument, to the _absolute denial_ of all else. I think he may have subsequently acted on it in his official role, to what extent he could.


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## Illico (Nov 7, 2018)

chrisr said:


> ... he told me that he was shocked by the answers he received, which was basically that clearly the _only_ relationship the student had was with their instrument, ...


 Yep, like some teens with their iPhone in the 21st century.


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## MartinH. (Nov 7, 2018)

I wonder if on the bottom line other 12 year old kids get more encouraged or discouraged to persue a career in music when they see her.


Edit: Am I reading too much into this, or is she already subtly mocking modern "epic" music? :D


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## chrisphan (Nov 7, 2018)

I couldn't care less if this kid, or any composer for that matter, brings hope to humanity or not. I just know that I enjoyed the music she made.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 7, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> I wonder if on the bottom line other 12 year old kids get more encouraged or discouraged to persue a career in music when they see her.
> 
> Edit: Am I reading too much into this, or is she already subtly mocking modern "epic" music? :D



To me it sounds more like a dig at (post)modernism and contemporary classical. But man, seeing this has chills running down my spine. She's a complete puppet. All this bullshit they make her learn and recite by heart. That poor kid.

As far as other kids go: I don't really think they'd relate to it either way. She's so alien. It's all a big validation thing by and for adults.


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## Marcin M (Nov 7, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> I wonder if on the bottom line other 12 year old kids get more encouraged or discouraged to persue a career in music when they see her.
> 
> 
> Edit: Am I reading too much into this, or is she already subtly mocking modern "epic" music? :D



Oh man, she's sooooo british


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## Lionel Schmitt (Nov 7, 2018)

I hate the title "Why music should be beautiful". Maybe I should watch it.  
I mean... I hate everything that contains "music" and "should be". Music is one of the few truly free mediums, maybe the only... and it's one of the or the best tool of expression.
So I'm having a huge problem with someone claiming it should be limited to "beautiful". 
Basically - no chance for dramatic music that isn't that beautiful, no chance for most action or horror music... and dark hybrid music would be a sin! 
Get outta my face with that... Expression doesn't begin and end with "beauty". 

And if she is mocking epic music I already have a problem with her... I also don't like some musical styles, but I'm not gonna be mocking them - unless it's really clear that I'm basing it on my personal taste. 
Really liked what I heard from her, so I hope she isn't gonna annoy me now. That would be an ungraceful second movement.


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## Polkasound (Nov 7, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> To me it sounds more like a dig at (post)modernism and contemporary classical.



I think what she's doing is bucking the people in her circles who are telling her she ought to be composing in those styles. Good for her for standing her ground. 




Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That poor kid.



Yes, if you look closely at the video, you can see a couple tears roll down her cheek which catch the reflection a man holding a whip, ready to crack it if she deviates from the scripted lines on the teleprompter. OK, seriously, there's nothing to feel sorry for. Alma happily lives and breathes the music she was exposed to growing up, as many of us do. The only difference is that God made her a prodigy with an extremely heightened ability to love, assimilate, and reproduce that music.




Jimmy Hellfire said:


> As far as other kids go: I don't really think they'd relate to it either way. She's so alien.



I tend to agree with this. Although her desire for other kids to enjoy her music is genuine, very few kids grew up the way she did, and her prodigal skills took her down a path that almost no one can relate to.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 7, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Good for her for standing her ground.



You believe she comes up with this babble herself? She's 12. Being a "prodigy" doesn't make kids think and reason like a 40 year old. People have very naive and romantic ideas about this stuff. Being "gifted" relates to retaining and processing information and having special talents and propensities in isolated activities. It's all about computing, not maturity.


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## Polkasound (Nov 7, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You believe she comes up with this babble herself?



100%.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 7, 2018)

Oh yeah, I forgot. Because Mr. Mighty Man in the Sky blessed her with a gift. Oh boy.


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## Kony (Nov 7, 2018)

@robgb Going back to your thread title, yes there is hope for humanity when there are people like Alma Deutscher in this world - but not so much when some people (like Jimmy Hellfire) feel so inadequate and intimidated by her obvious talent as to troll a thread about her while knowing nothing about her.

@Jimmy Hellfire - I've just watched this documentary about Alma - suggest you do the same before posting in this thread again otherwise you come across as completely ignorant on this subject. For example, I'll take Sir Simon Rattle and Bryn Terfel's word on the subject over yours any day. Cheers


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 7, 2018)

I don't have time, I gotta watch Kony 2018. And "Sir" Simon Rattle should get a haircut!


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## Polkasound (Nov 7, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot. Because Mr. Mighty Man in the Sky blessed her with a gift. Oh boy.



Regardless of your beliefs, think of the impressive body of work she's attained for someone her age, and then see how enthusiastically she talks about it. Not for one second do I think she is a puppet. She's the real deal. And fortunately for all of us who appreciate who she is and what she does, she's not letting outspoken cynics and trolls get in her way.


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## EspenH (Nov 7, 2018)

Man that's nothing, when I was 12 I could play the entire first 2 bars of the Star Wars theme on my clarinet almost.


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## Kony (Nov 7, 2018)

@Polkasound I wouldn't bother engaging with the troll anymore - or at least don't take any of his comments seriously - based on his vacuous one-liner ripostes which are obvious attempts to provoke. Anyone with any musical ability can recognise Alma's prodigious talent - if they can't, that's their problem and their loss.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 7, 2018)

@Kony, you're really getting worked up over this and are obviously taking it very personal. Why is it such a problem that someone might have a more critical perception of the whole highfaultin and pretentious brouahaha? Get your act together.


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## LamaRose (Nov 7, 2018)

I think she's a 500-year old, time-traveling alien from the 16th century. She'll probably end up being an Academy Award winning writer/actress/director... after her modeling career is over, of course!

Whatever... the girl's got game... that's for damn sure.


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## Kony (Nov 7, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> @Kony, you're really getting worked up over this and are obviously taking it very personal. Why is it such a problem that someone might have a more critical perception of the whole highfaultin and pretentious brouahaha? Get your act together.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> To be fair, she's probably the offspring of some privileged, possibly titled scumbag who profits off of people's misery on a daily basis and she already inherited both her parents aloof ignorance as well as heartless, sociopathic determination





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> the little princess being too bored and too precious to go to school





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> She's a complete puppet. All this bullshit they make her learn and recite by heart. That poor kid.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> She's so alien.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You believe she comes up with this babble herself?





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Mr. Mighty Man in the Sky blessed her with a gift.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 7, 2018)

Yeah Kony, as I said, you're obviously getting worked up over it and are taking it real personal. I already pointed that out, no need to demonstrate again. The question is why, and more importantly: why don't you get yourself straight, no need to get in my face about it. You need to ask yourself why you feel you need to do that.


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## Paul Grymaud (Nov 8, 2018)

What's the matter ? Yeah ! I can play "Jingle bells" with only one paw.
Would You be jealous too ? If so, go to Hellfire.






Joking aside, I have the feeling that Miss Deutscher is an accomplished classical musician (unusual for this age...). Her face is sparkling and she's full of vivacity. Unfortunately, for those who cannot understand that, *her brain works differently from the average*. In my opinion, virtuosity AND musicality are already present. Is she happy with her life and does she make some people happy ? So, why not ? Now, I don't think she composes and plays as if it was slavery.

*I can understand that it seems unfair having so much facility to compose and play in comparizon with those who have to work hard to learn to play an instrument or to compose even a little melody*. But, it's not HER fault. Maybe she gives the impression that it's easy as pie. In fact, it is so ! I myself, have the same problem. When someone ask me: so, You are musician ? What instrument do You play ? When I answer: piano, guitars, violin, bluegrass banjo, percussions, bass and a few others, they don't understand ! And when I say I practise lyrical singing and compose, they consider me as an alien too ! You know what ? I started the violin (a little one) at the age of four, playing 5 hours per day, then the bluegrass banjo 8 to 10 hours a day ! And so on... Thanks to my mother and my teachers who gave me very early a huge musical education.. And, I'm very happy in my life ! So, let this little bird flutter in this deep blue sky. Who knows ? When she's 25 she maybe doing trash metal !


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 8, 2018)

Aah, you commited the cardinal sin. It's Thrash Metal. Admittedly, a lot of Thrash Metal is also Trash Metal.

But just to make it clear, I don't care one bit if she's a "prodigy" or not. In fact, I don't even know. I have no idea what she does musically.

It's a totally uninteresting category, I don't care if someone's a "genius" in making music. I don't attach sportsmanship spirit to music, to me it's about entirely different things. I think it's quite a sign of buffoonism to chalk up any skeptical comment up to "jealousy". I was 100% referring to the whole otherworldly snobbism and exalted in vitro ridiculousness that's always part of this stuff. Apparently, it's a big issue for some people to have a bit of fun with that. Which in turn makes it more funny. Ah well.


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## Kony (Nov 8, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> @Kony, you're ... obviously taking it very personal.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I don't care one bit if she's a "prodigy"





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I don't even know





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I have no idea





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I don't care if someone's a "genius"





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I don't attach sportsmanship spirit





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I think it's quite a sign of buffoonism





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I was 100% referring to the whole otherworldly snobbism


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## zolhof (Nov 8, 2018)

I'm all up for good, clean, lighthearted fun but there's a big difference between joking and insulting a gifted 12yo girl for the sake of it. "People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer."

Since you are so dismissive of Miss Deutscher's accomplishments, here's another young talent more up your alley:


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 8, 2018)

So you're insulting this fine midwestern young lady now? Actually I'd bet a 100 bucks that you woulnd't be crapping your jocks if I was making fun of her in the first place. Hypocrisy much?


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## zolhof (Nov 8, 2018)

Different strokes for different folks. I don't need to insult a kid to make a point, she is what she is and I honestly believe you would feel more in peace with yourself by following her instead. That's all, please stop projecting. I don't know you but the way you speak to others here you come across as rude and obnoxious. We got your point already, maybe it's time to move on?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 8, 2018)

I'd take honest spite over smug and hypocritical virtue signalling any day. I never "insulted a kid". You trying to frame it that way is what's rude. Quite a cheap one mate.


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## thov72 (Nov 8, 2018)

marvellous girl -- reminds me of Clara Schumann


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## Kony (Nov 8, 2018)

This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Either you lack self-awareness or have no memory - which is it?


Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I never "insulted a kid".





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> the little princess





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> she already inherited both her parents aloof ignorance as well as heartless, sociopathic determination





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> She's a complete puppet.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> She's so alien.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You believe she comes up with this babble herself?


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## robgb (Nov 8, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's what she should be doing. Instead, she's become the victim of her old folks' self-fulfillment-by-proxy and pseudo-apotheosis desires.


Clearly you haven't watched her on 60 minutes. It's quite obvious that she LOVES what she's doing and is not pressured by her parents at all. Funny that you make that assumption. Hell, you can see how much she loves what she's doing simply by looking at her face while the orchestra plays. Not really sure why you have to be such a downer about the girl. She's a musical genius and a happy one at that.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> She's a complete puppet. All this bullshit they make her learn and recite by heart. That poor kid.



Yeah, she just looks miserable.... Give me a fucking break.


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## creativeforge (Nov 8, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> To be fair, she's probably the offspring of some privileged, possibly titled scumbag who profits off of people's misery on a daily basis and she already inherited both her parents aloof ignorance as well as heartless, sociopathic determination, so I wouldn't get too hasty with the "hope for humanity" part.



Gosh that was heartless. I don't usually express my opinions this way, but wow. What a crusher of dreams and insensitive entitled snub you come out to be in this post to spew such nonsense.


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## Kony (Nov 8, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> So you're insulting this fine midwestern young lady now?


@Jimmy Hellfire
It's funny you should bring cultural identity into this and using "midwestern" as somehow relevant to your counter-argument.


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## NoamL (Nov 8, 2018)

Her harmonic language seems totally undeveloped apart from repeating some very obvious influences (Mendelssohn and Dvořák for sure, among others).

On the other hand... even mastering one instrument at that age, let alone two, is impressive. It takes dedication and *not* just pushy parents. 

I have a feeling that the media & general public is more impressed with her compositions than they should be and less impressed with her musicianship than they should be.

In time, her musicianship & music literacy will certainly help her become a great composer if she follows that path.



EspenH said:


> Man that's nothing, when I was 12 I could play the entire first 2 bars of the Star Wars theme on my clarinet almost.


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## Gerbil (Nov 8, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Her harmonic language seems totally undeveloped apart from repeating some very obvious influences (Mendelssohn and Dvořák for sure, among others).



Conservative, even by 19th century standards, no doubts. Undeveloped, not so much as it fits with the themes and remains stylistically coherent. Her harmonic vocabulary will broaden with age. For a 12 year old writing music of that length with such confidence is very impressive.


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## Kony (Nov 8, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> I realized trying to reason with Jimmy was pointless. Arguing with a troll is like playing tennis against a wall -- you can't win.


I wouldn't say Jimmy has won anything here - although I agree with you about the drama zone. But only the negative comments should be moved there IMO


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## creativeforge (Nov 8, 2018)

I vote to purge this thread from the vomit spewed on it, because it deserves to exist without the foulness.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 8, 2018)

creativeforge said:


> Gosh that was heartless. I don't usually express my opinions this way, but wow. What a crusher of dreams and insensitive entitled snub you come out to be in this post to spew such nonsense.



Well thank you. You guys are a bunch of babies, I gotta say.


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## Chr!s (Nov 8, 2018)

I saw the video and thought, "hey maybe OP is right — there is hope for humanity".

Then I read the comments


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## Kony (Nov 8, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Yikes, this thread cannot possibly devolve any farther.


I did go too far and have now deleted


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## creativeforge (Nov 8, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> This is one of those times I'm reeeeeallly glad I no longer run a forum, because as convenient as making Jimmy's posts go POOF would be, such an action could also toe the line of censorship. When I read his statements about Alma Deutcher, I find it nearly impossible to believe any decent human being could say such condescending things and be serious about them, but if Jimmy is indeed expressing his honest opinions, I'm not sure that hand-selecting his opinions (and resulting commentary from other members) for deletion is automatically the right move.
> 
> Unless Jimmy has a history of stirring the pot and generating reports, moving the whole thread might be more appropriate. It's a tough call. I'm just so glad it's not mine.



Well, I admit I'm thinking more about the people imprinted with Jimmy's insults, including her parents. Not about Jimmy's freedom from censorship. And how the internet is "forever." In a case like this, I would not have a problem with removing the one post as this is a forum of professional musicians, some who are well-known. Censorship is not always a bad thing when done surgically. There is opinion, and then there is something else. One would think the person in question would get a clue and correct his blunder... I will leave this to Mike and the mods. 

Good night.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 8, 2018)

No, do not call the police, do not call the president, protective bunkers are not necessary - just do nothing! Ignore the "troll" and go on about your day. I'm aware you don't realize this, but _you_ made this thread a shit show, not me. Whether you like my humor or not is an almost unrelated matter, but if you pay attention, you'll see that that's the extent of my contribution. What made this thread a "drama" are the compulsive overreactions (in certain cases also a disingenuous joy of quarelling) and the sheer personal indignation that someone dared to say something you really, really didn't like.

I'm not saying this to piss you off or "troll" you, but to make you realize that it's comical and ridiculous to make it such a topic. Apparently a bit of sarcasm or a joke about snobby cloud-dwellers makes is enough for the pitchforks to be drawn from the barn. That's a very selective sense of regulation. I'm sure that if I made some mean-sounding joke about something the fine people on this board tend to really look down upon (like, I don't know - saying something mean about retarded media producers who NEVER have budget for audio), this thread would have never taken the turn it has now.

It's a bit ridiculous, you follow me? Oh my God, what shall we do? Well nothing! Stop crying and everything will be OK. It's not a "tough call". It's not a state affair. When you put things into perspective - thinking about "what should be done" and what even caused the ruckus, it's absolutely silly. It's all the same to me, but Im telling you because (other than devouring rich kids on occasion) I'm a really nice guy.

You guys try being a bit more honest and open and a bit less hypocritical. You're only pissed because I made the "wrong" joke. You goaded yourself and blew it up. There's no "scandal", there's no "drama". The only drama is you absolutely overreacting over a trifle until it IS a drama.

Well, I'm sure you're gonna figure it all out ...


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## creativeforge (Nov 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> No, do not call the police, do not call the president, protective bunkers are not necessary - just do nothing! Ignore the "troll" and go on about your day. I'm aware you don't realize this, but _you_ made this thread a shit show, not me. Whether you like my humor or not is an almost unrelated matter, but if you pay attention, you'll see that that's the extent of my contribution. What made this thread a "drama" are the compulsive overreactions (in certain cases also a disingenuous joy of quarelling) and the sheer personal indignation that someone dared to say something you really, really didn't like.
> 
> I'm not saying this to piss you off or "troll" you, but to make you realize that it's comical and ridiculous to make it such a topic. Apparently a bit of sarcasm or a joke about snobby cloud-dwellers makes is enough for the pitchforks to be drawn from the barn. That's a very selective sense of regulation. I'm sure that if I made some mean-sounding joke about something the fine people on this board tend to really look down upon (like, I don't know - saying something mean about retarded media producers who NEVER have budget for audio), this thread would have never taken the turn it has now.
> 
> ...



Hmm... nope, you really are the one who hasn't figured out what your idle words have caused. You must need the maze you create to hide away, so I'm not going to touch this. 

Peace.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 9, 2018)

Oh please guys..don´t smash your heads..you know..it is still music. that young girl is doing music and she is definitely not a typical 12 year old neither how she speaks (in particular her facial expression while talking) nor what she does. I think we dont´need to discuss that matter, do we? Do I feel uncofortable because of that..no. I see things in her which are very very different in comparison to "normal" kids playing with toycars and playstation. On the one hand I am impressed by her craft on the other hand I hope she is not skipping her youth. Because that is the only thing which a lot of those people suffer but then later a lot. It depends a lot also on the parents.
I think Hellfire maybe wanted to point just that out? But got a bit hellfirish in the way how he sais it? :D


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## FinGael (Nov 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> No, do not call the police, do not call the president, protective bunkers are not necessary - just do nothing! Ignore the "troll" and go on about your day. I'm aware you don't realize this, but _you_ made this thread a shit show, not me. Whether you like my humor or not is an almost unrelated matter, but if you pay attention, you'll see that that's the extent of my contribution. What made this thread a "drama" are the compulsive overreactions (in certain cases also a disingenuous joy of quarelling) and the sheer personal indignation that someone dared to say something you really, really didn't like.
> 
> I'm not saying this to piss you off or "troll" you, but to make you realize that it's comical and ridiculous to make it such a topic. Apparently a bit of sarcasm or a joke about snobby cloud-dwellers makes is enough for the pitchforks to be drawn from the barn. That's a very selective sense of regulation. I'm sure that if I made some mean-sounding joke about something the fine people on this board tend to really look down upon (like, I don't know - saying something mean about retarded media producers who NEVER have budget for audio), this thread would have never taken the turn it has now.
> 
> ...



Good and bad jokes and opinions aside... Have you considered what you are gaining with your posts (about this subject)?

My guess is that with posts like yours in this thread, some more acclaimed and skilled people will leave the forum. Can't blame them.

In my opinion, one of the things that has made this this forum great, and special, is the fact that there has been people from beginners to top aces, with love, passion and enthusiasm for the subject that connects us all here. That can produce extraordinary things, but only in a nourishing environment; it has to give enough positive and valuable to everyone attending to keep things rolling.

If the forum becomes a place of venting and swashbuckling, it can benefit some, but probably not the whole community.

i hope that people would reflect more on these matters before they post.

I have a dream that all the good people that have left, would one day return with all their good mates. It may never happen, but regardless of that we can make this a good place to be.


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## Chr!s (Nov 9, 2018)

There is literally no sensible reason whatsoever to be hating on this, especially since the hating is originating from unfounded assumptions that are completely tangential to the subject at hand.

As for the "skipping youth" thing, yeah — no. The girl can be really good at music and not have to sacrifice her social life, which none of us know anything about and isn't our business anyway.

BRB: Calling my sister and telling her that all of those years she spent from age 6 - 18 as a competitive dancer, and of her own will, would've been better spent on nothing but tailgate parties and video games.


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## Polkasound (Nov 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Whether you like my humor or not...



If your comments about Alma Deutscher were all a joke, then your delivery was as tactless as a kid calling in a bomb threat to his school as a joke. Since you never let on that you were joking, OF COURSE PEOPLE TOOK YOU SERIOUSLY. Why wouldn't they?




creativeforge said:


> Well, I admit I'm thinking more about the people imprinted with Jimmy's insults, including her parents.



Me too. Although we now know that Jimmy was joking, the condescending-toned comments are still completely unwarranted. All's fair on the internet, but I think VI-C can and should do one better by showing this young composer some respect by striking the comments from public view. Whatever Mike decides to do about this, he's got my support.


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## Chr!s (Nov 9, 2018)

Didn't he clarify in his second post that it was actually not totally a joke?

"I don't think more of this kind of exalted folks is what humanity needs, or should hope for (to circle back to the thread title).

Frankly, I also generally laugh at any notion of an artists' "hard work".

?


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## FinGael (Nov 9, 2018)

What impressed me the most was the way she seems to love the music.

I think she is great and there is certainly room for her in this world. Wish her all the best.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 9, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> Didn't he clarify in his second post that it was actually not totally a joke?
> 
> "I don't think more of this kind of exalted folks is what humanity needs, or should hope for (to circle back to the thread title).
> 
> ...



The original post obviously was a joke.

The one you qouted isn't. I said I don't think more of that is what the world needs - directly referencing the thread title. Because all of this wunderkind nonsense is only possible in a complete isolation from worldly realities and only for extraordinarily wealthy and aloof people who have the liberty to design their own fantasy life. I guess you can argue semantics now. That's always what this type of folks do.

I found it distasteful to read. That's not the reality of our world, and more of this kind of thing most certanly won't solve the very real problems the global society has, especially when it comes to youth perspective, economy, self-determination and education. There's so many kids out there that would greatly benefit from _any_ kind of basic education and they're not able to get it.

That's just an opinion. Not even an "insulting" one. If you got a problem with _that_, you're the one who needs to check himself. Which comes back down to what I previously noted - quite a bit of hypocrisy here.


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## FinGael (Nov 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The original post obviously was joke.
> 
> The one you qouted isn't. I said I don't think more of that is what the world needs. Because all of this wunderkind nonsense is only possible in a complete isolation of worldly realities and only for extraordinarily wealthy and aloof people who have the liberty to design their own fantasy life. I guess you can argue semantics now. That's always what this type of folks do.
> 
> ...



I respectfully disagree.

I think the music she makes is something that the world needs - especially in this time of great global challenges.

Some have stated that her harmonic language is not so developed, but to me her music is beautiful, and to me that is valuable. 

Vangelis stated in one interview, that in his opinion there is not enough beauty in today's world. I agree with him. 

To me people of today, especially westerners, seem emotionally wounded and lost with/in themselves, and much of what we do is to pass this inner pain and turmoil forward in what we do. You only have to look at how we treat the environment... At the same time beauty is often downplayed. One could of course argue whole day what beauty is. I don't want to put it in box more than thinking that it might be something that can heal, harmonize and unify one's being and makes one feel good, peace and content. 

Wasting the youth can be a valid issue, but at the same time I want to question the model of what youth should be. Sometimes it seems that the models we have are made to make us good consumers instead of human beings.


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## Chr!s (Nov 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The original post obviously was a joke.
> 
> The one you qouted isn't. I said I don't think more of that is what the world needs - directly referencing the thread title. Because all of this wunderkind nonsense is only possible in a complete isolation from worldly realities and only for extraordinarily wealthy and aloof people who have the liberty to design their own fantasy life. I guess you can argue semantics now. That's always what this type of folks do.
> 
> ...



I think I now understand what you are saying in that artistic education and pursuits are not inherently more virtuous than others. I agree that perhaps this study should not necessarily be championed above all the others as a shining example of what we should, in general, aspire to be or expect our children to do.

But let's get down to brass tacks:

This girl is in music whether we like it or not, and it seems to me that she is writing music of a higher standard than what even most adults who find "youtube fame" do. 

Do you believe, as someone who has criticized the manufactured music of Hollywood, that higher standards are needed, both in the arts and just in general?


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## scottbuckley (Nov 9, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> I wonder if on the bottom line other 12 year old kids get more encouraged or discouraged to persue a career in music when they see her.
> 
> 
> Edit: Am I reading too much into this, or is she already subtly mocking modern "epic" music? :D




Just watched this video. She's a character, that's for sure. But... her reasoning behind her stylistic choices reminds me of myself, and perhaps a few of you may relate. I used to fall asleep as a kid listening to John Williams scores, and all I ever wanted to do was write music like John Williams. I envy her, for the simple fact that she has the musical skill and understanding of the language at her age to actually achieve those goals. Good for her, I suppose .


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 9, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> Do you believe, as someone who has criticized the manufactured music of Hollywood, that higher standards are needed, both in the arts and just in general?



Most definitely. It would make the world a whole different place. I also believe that it is an entirely reachable goal. What frustrates me that higher standards, better education and especially more individual, talent- and interest-based education are only available to those who are already well off.


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## Chr!s (Nov 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Most definitely. It would make the world a whole different place. I also believe that it is an entirely reachable goal. What frustrates me that higher standards, better education and especially more individual, talent- and interest-based education are only available to those who are already well off.



Well, consider that many of the people writing music in places like Hollywood today are also already well off and got there through nepotism. Many of them are also self-taught.

So, should we not then take this girl, who is at a young age achieving a higher standard herself, as a symbol of hope that the younger generations will work to bring about the age of improvement you seek?


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 9, 2018)

It's fair to say (and understandable) that her work is derivative at present and many many students in good colleges and beyond can write pastiche just as well and even better. What is exciting for me is wondering if she will get beyond the commercialism and start searching within for a more unique voice. I believe a lot of us have that voice, but our circumstances, personality and social/economic pressures dictate the outcome and/or suppression of that voice far too often. Is she going to be cocooned in a mad whirl of money and fame - trapped and stifled - or could she break free and be something truly wonderful and unique? I hope so, but perhaps she will be happy writing in a style that requires no thought from the listener who can then concentrate on the marvel of her. She then becomes a commercially driven novelty. That'd be a shame because the likes of her are very infrequent. I wish her well.
Apologies if someone has said similar, but I haven't read through the thread fully yet....


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 9, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> So, should we not then take this girl, who is at a young age achieving a higher standard herself, as a symbol of hope that the younger generations will work to bring about the age of improvement you seek?



I don't really perceive it that way. I mean it's all great, good for Alma, but she's the model child of some exalted and privileged academia folks and they're doing whatever they're doing. I guess that's now "insulting" again. Anyhow, I don't see how that's a symbol of hope for younger generations - if anything, on the contrary. That's just how I see it.


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Most definitely. It would make the world a whole different place. I also believe that it is an entirely reachable goal. What frustrates me that higher standards, better education and especially more individual, talent- and interest-based education are only available to those who are already well off.



Jimmy, I came from a working class background and had no help other than supportive parents. My own determination got me to the Royal Academy in London. Whilst I agree that being nurtured responsibly is a definite advantage for a youngster, it doesn't always work out and is not exclusive to a wealthy background.. I had whatever you want to call it within me and had no choice in my chosen profession.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 9, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> Jimmy, I came from a working class background and had no help other than supportive parents. My own determination got me to the Royal Academy in London. Whilst I agree that being nurtured responsibly is a definite advantage for a youngster, it doesn't always work out and is not exclusive to a wealthy background.. I had whatever you want to call it within me and had no choice in my chosen profession.



Yes, of course I worded this wrongly, saying that it was _only_ possible if you're already in a privileged position. But you get the general idea. I'm sure you've been seeing certain types around you along the way and could tell the difference.


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## reutunes (Nov 9, 2018)

Drama Zone anyone?


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 9, 2018)

Absolutely Jimmy. Some of my more affluent peers at the Academy went completely off the rails, it being their first time away from a safe environment. Mix in hyper sensitivity, cheap discounted booze (aaahhhh, sigh) and first time love/sex (aaaaaaahhhhhh etc.) and seriously, it was the downfall of an inordinate amount of students. 
For someone like the subject of this thread, she will have to leave the nest at some stage so I hope the adulation she is getting at present doesn't skew her opinion of herself. When (if?) she gets into an environment where every other student can play and write as well as her she will have to step up more so.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 9, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> For someone like the subject of this thread, she will have to leave the nest at some stage so I hope the adulation she is getting at present doesn't skew her opinion of herself. When (if?) she gets into an environment where every other student can play and write as well as her she will have to step up more so.



That's a good point. Hopefully she'll be able to navigate through that and remeber to stick to what really matters - her abilities, the work and dilligence and the joy of music. A lot of times overly pandered young people can lose sight of that.


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## MartinH. (Nov 9, 2018)

I just hope she's not only blessed with unusual talent, but also with an unusual mental resilience and capacity to find happiness in life, because afaik not too many of the child celebrity stories end well. Too much success too early in life leaves too little room to grow. I hope she can brave the storms that undoubtably she'll have to face at some point, and wish her the best. Her achievements are very impressive but I'm not envious at all.



mikeh-375 said:


> cheap discounted booze (aaahhhh, sigh)


Do students get special discounts on booze in your country? If so, that seems kinda counter-productive. x]


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## robgb (Nov 9, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I have a feeling that the media & general public is more impressed with her compositions than they should be and less impressed with her musicianship than they should be.


She's already a better composer than 95% of the people on this forum. But every thread needs a little condescending snobbery to make it complete.


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## robgb (Nov 9, 2018)

reutunes said:


> Drama Zone anyone?


The "discussion" maybe. But it would be nice to leave the wonderful video of her concerto behind.


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 9, 2018)

Do students get special discounts on booze in your country? If so, that seems kinda counter-productive. x][/QUOTE]

We did when I was there, not sure about these days. The bar introduced some special strength lager once as a trial, it was carnage with students and some professors lolling about all over the place. Counter-productive?.....dunno, can't remember.


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## Desire Inspires (Nov 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> She's already a better composer than 95% of the people on this forum. But every thread needs a little condescending snobbery to make it complete.



Fortunately I am not in that 95% group.


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## TimCox (Nov 14, 2018)

robgb said:


> She's already a better composer than 95% of the people on this forum. But every thread needs a little condescending snobbery to make it complete.


I think the piece is beautiful and incredibly well-written but there's no harm in pointing out that it is _very _noticeably in the Classical period. The fact is that if she wasn't 12 she'd be raked over the coals by critics as derivative. Whether justifiable or not, I'm not qualified to say. Although I do agree there is a difference between condescending and critical!


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## robgb (Nov 14, 2018)

TimCox said:


> The fact is that if she wasn't 12 she'd be raked over the coals by critics as derivative.


Almost all music is derivative. I'm not sure that even qualifies as criticism.


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## TimCox (Nov 14, 2018)

robgb said:


> Almost all music is derivative. I'm not sure that even qualifies as criticism.



I think it's valid criticism, I've seen plenty of new classical music get chastised because it's not modern or forward thinking enough. I might not wholly agree but it's still valid (John Williams gets similar criticism for relying on romantic era conventions, just to add some perspective to what I'm saying). My main point was that the age of the composer is helping here, please don't misunderstand that. If she keeps this up, she'll be a major MAJOR artist.


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## Kony (Dec 1, 2018)

gregh said:


> poor little kid


Poor frustrated scientist


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## cola2410 (Dec 2, 2018)

Watched the first vid - except her age nothing really that impressive, the school I was trained at had kids who could do almost the same at 16, I mean composing something similar and derivative from classics. These ivory-tower-children may amaze at first but what really important is how they progress when they face competition from the real world. I truly respect people being able to invent and create something new despite their age because it's the only thing needed to enrich humanity. Repetition doesn't make any sense except pleasing parents and alike.
Meanwhile look at this kid:


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## SergeD (Dec 2, 2018)

Plenty of young bodies dwelled by old souls
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=child+music+genious

Amazing


This baby beats all of them


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## Kony (Dec 4, 2018)

cola2410 said:


> except her age nothing really that impressive, the school I was trained at had kids who could do almost the same at 16, I mean composing something similar and derivative from classics



That's a laughable comment since Alma Deutscher wrote her pieces when she was 8 - including an opera - and that's precisely the point, that she is doing this from a very young age and that her ability seems to be innate. Alma is also a multi-instrumentalist, unlike Joey Alexander....

To be clear, the video you posted of Joey is impressive, but if you could make a comparison with another child of a similar age composing and performing classical music, I'm all ears.

And what's your point about being derivative? All music is derivative, and every composer mines their predecessors.



cola2410 said:


> These ivory-tower-children



There is no need to make derogatory comments like the one above about people you know nothing about.


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## cola2410 (Dec 5, 2018)

Kony said:


> That's a laughable comment since Alma Deutscher wrote her pieces when she was 8 - including an opera - and that's precisely the point, that she is doing this from a very young age and that her ability seems to be innate. Alma is also a multi-instrumentalist, unlike Joey Alexander....


Well, there is no point for me at all because I'm talking about music not age and innate abilities is no wonder these days. Stephen Fry:"A new Mozart?" No, thank you, we already have one but lets wait for her to be the "new". Joey is another example but no direct comparison as he does something different - he improvises fluently over jazz standards being very young. I'm not a fan of both because they don't really invent anything new so I'll wait for both to develop their abilities to some level that makes them remembered. 
But that's my thing. Would I buy a ticket to Alma or Joey concert? No, because there are better operas and better jazz musicians.



Kony said:


> There is no need to make derogatory comments like the one above about people you know nothing about.


Studied at home using non-conventional methodologies, parents limit performances and select opportunities, financially supported from outside the family.


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## Kony (Dec 5, 2018)

cola2410 said:


> I'm not a fan of both


Then why did you stop by? And why post here about it if it's only going to be negative? I get negativity in terms of debate etc, but most were here to give credit where credit's due.


cola2410 said:


> Studied at home using non-conventional methodologies, parents limit performances and select opportunities, financially supported from outside the family.


You obviously seem to know a bit about her, including Fry's quote (which coincidentally she is at pains herself to say she doesn't want to be considered as a "Mozart") which is interesting for someone who indicates they don't rate her highly. I don't take that to mean "ivory tower" btw but that's another debate.

Many kids are home-schooled these days (why you feel it pertinent to make a "non-conventional" assignation is subjective and irrelevant). There are 48,000 children currently being home-schooled in the UK which increased by 40% over the last year (and says more about the education system in the UK) - and this was Alma's choice as she showed the ability from a very young age to make a decision as to what she wanted out of her education.

Her parents have said they limit her performances to protect her and ensure she has a proper childhood as opposed to being a show-pony (and possibly avoid more comparisons to Mozart for obvious reasons as the latter was used by his father - there are many examples of talented kids being used by their parents...).

Not sure where you're getting the financial support from outside the family - they were obviously already doing okay financially and how would you know anything about their financial status?


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## cola2410 (Dec 5, 2018)

Kony said:


> Then why did you stop by? And why post here about it if it's only going to be negative? I get negativity in terms of debate etc, but most were here to give credit where credit's due.


Actually it goes back to the OP about hope for humanity. I think the hope for humanity is in continuous invention and contribution in collaboration with others based on the foundation of the past. I'm not being negative at all, please don't get me wrong, I just oppose the OP statement.



Kony said:


> Not sure where you're getting the financial support from outside the family - they were obviously already doing okay financially and how would you know anything about their financial status?


The family itself yes but the performances were supported by entrepreneurs



Kony said:


> Many kids are home-schooled these days (why you feel it pertinent to make a "non-conventional" assignation is subjective and irrelevant).


I mean that Italian teaching technique and online lessons from a Swiss professor.

Honestly I like composers more than performers and she's both but more a composer and I believe she can do something for us, lets just wait.


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## Pudge (Dec 5, 2018)

Kids have got skills!

Look at it this way, If the kids are forced into playing music through fear or by being brain-washed by the parents. It'll probably backfire and when they become adults they'll go off the rails, becoming alienated and socially dysfunctional. Especially if they're playing music against their will.

If they're not forced into it and the parents support them because the child chooses to make music, then the child will probably go on to do awesome things or get bored and do something else entirely.

If the child is loves playing music but has no support system or opportunity to develop, they'll probably grow up never feeling like they reached their potential and ultimately do something else.

I don't really think it matters if their parents are rich or not. Because un-wealthy parents can force their child into music, just to make money. Just like wealthy parents can force their child into music to boost their own status and give them bragging rights.

I know a guy who was drumming "prodigy" and heavily influenced by his parents. They already had 3 children who all got really high paying jobs by the time they were 30. A heart surgeon, a consultant for huge companies, a rocket scientist and then there's the youngest (the drummer). He was on TV loads, had lots of famous people telling him how awesome he was, won some awards and it all looked like his future was bright. By the time he was 23 his career never took off.

All that time spent romanticising about stardom and being spoon fed bollocks, eventually caused him to have a major break down. He's completely alienated and really struggles to socialise. Everyone who talks to him finds him odd. But he's a really good person. His parents still treat him like the failure of the litter and pay for everything out of guilt. Moral of the story, never try live your dreams through your children. It's their life, not yours.


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## Kony (Dec 5, 2018)

cola2410 said:


> Actually it goes back to the OP about hope for humanity. I think the hope for humanity is in continuous invention and contribution in collaboration with others based on the foundation of the past. I'm not being negative at all, please don't get me wrong, I just oppose the OP statement.


That's fair enough - it is the web and everything is open to interpretation, but I interpreted the title in a lighter happier context - as in, "hey look at this talented young composer". If we were really going to talk about hope for humanity, we'd probably have to start with whether there is any future for humanity in the context of global warming, and whether the planet's going to go up in a ball of flames within the next 30 years or so....

When you make a point in regards to ivory towers and that they are supported financially from outside but then qualify that later as only the performances being supported (and which composer didn't have patronage of some kind), it seems pointless bringing that up.


cola2410 said:


> I mean that Italian teaching technique and online lessons from a Swiss professor.


She seems remarkably intelligent and gifted for her age - does it matter which school she does or doesn't go to? Honestly, some people seem to have a care for this child's education and future which is bizarre in this context of enjoying her music, when really there are plenty of children in the world doing it tough with no prospects, but probably don't get the same level of attention. 

Any member here doing a mock-up of comparable quality with VIs or live musicians would surely have either been praised or simply ignored - but they most certainly wouldn't have been cross-examined for their socio-economic status, life choices and future prospects.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 5, 2018)

Kony said:


> Any member here doing a mock-up of comparable quality with VIs or live musicians would surely have either been praised or simply ignored - but they most certainly wouldn't have been cross-examined for their socio-economic status, life choices and future prospects.



That's a fair point Kony. I do feel that AD has such a wonderful ability that it needs proper formal nurture for her to reach her fullest potential. The debate could be about what direction she is steered in by any nurturing, but I'm sure she will find her own way regardless of (any!) nurturing, the gravy train of acclaim, or any vested interests due to the popularity of classicism. We have Mozart et al, so fingers crossed for an original Deutscher in the future...dig deeper Alma when (if?) you are ready and able.
Kony, I think because she has the potential for true greatness, she comes under intense scrutiny - it might make or break her, time will tell.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 5, 2018)

Kony said:


> Any member here doing a mock-up of comparable quality with VIs or live musicians would surely have either been praised or simply ignored - but they most certainly wouldn't have been cross-examined for their socio-economic status, life choices and future prospects.



Because nobody here is a 12 year old from Snobtopia.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2018)

I'm curious: how does this prove hope for humanity?

I always thought hope for humanity would be something that was one yee-haw of a lot bigger: like getting rid of all nukes, wars abolished or strikingly rare, etc.

If you want to start talking about music changing the world, Beethoven's late era was around 200 years ago...


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## cola2410 (Dec 5, 2018)

Kony said:


> She seems remarkably intelligent and gifted for her age - does it matter which school she does or doesn't go to?


For me it does because others equally gifted just can't afford it or not aware. And according to the law of large numbers there are more in Asia and India we know nothing about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_music_prodigies
I feel now it's all about the same subject - we have another gifted kid who is properly raised and praised, that's all. No more humanity discussion )


Parsifal666 said:


> I always thought hope for humanity would be something like that was one yee-haw of a lot bigger: like getting rid of all nukes, wars abolished or strikingly rare, etc.


Exactly ) I also feel that AI will overpower us in creativity much sooner than we expect.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2018)

robgb said:


> Composed and orchestrated when she was twelve. Parts of it written when she was eight. Astonishing.



What really is astonishing, but not in a good way, is the fact that she composes music as if she would live in the 19th century. 
For sure, when somebody starts it's usual to recapitulate some relevant parts of history; but the road should leave into the present, otherwise it has few to do with art but more with kitsch.
Mozart, Mendelssohn and other real "Wunderkinder" composed music that reflected the time they lived in, even at an early age.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2018)

Though I basically worship the Great Composers, Living Fossil has a great point. Stravinsky happened, Mahler, Schoenberg, Bartok, the Greatest Film Composers, Stockhausen, mid-era Richard Strauss, Bruckner, Scriabin, Glass, Sibelius, Penderecki...so much great, great music. Some of which might not be fully appreciated in our time.


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## Soundhound (Dec 5, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> What really is astonishing, but not in a good way, is the fact that she composes music as if she would live in the 19th century.
> For sure, when somebody starts it's usual to recapitulate some relevant parts of history; but the road should leave into the present, otherwise it has few to do with art but more with kitsch.
> Mozart, Mendelssohn and other real "Wunderkinder" composed music that reflected the time they lived in, even at an early age.



I have some English relatives who live partly in the 19th century. They are extreme cases, and it's very odd, sometimes hilarious, sometimes can screw things up badly. There is a thread that runs through some British culture that yearns for the days of the empire.

But to the original post, I read the 'hope for humanity' comment as utterly harmless, romantic passing thought. But here we have 8 pages of sturm und drang. I love you guys.

I'd seen her in that 60 minutes piece. She's incredibly talented it seems to me (that kid playing giant steps is just ridiculous, I still can't play anything worthwhile over those goddamn changes). My first thought when watching the video of her here was Jeff Beck recounting an early morning phone call the morning after he first saw Hendrix play, in a club in London. He picks up the phone and a friend howls "have you seen that guy!?!" Beck answers curtly, Yes I have, thank you. And slams down the phone. Then he turns to camera: I thought, great, now what am going to do for a living?


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## robgb (Dec 5, 2018)

Jeez, a lot of jaded souls here. As I said before, 95% of the people here will never be as good as this young girl is at twelve.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2018)

robgb said:


> Jeez, a lot of jaded souls here. As I said before, 95% of the people here will never be as good as this young girl is at twelve.



Your comment sound like those posts on 9GAG, where they post an image with a realistic street painting (or similar) on one side, and a painting by Jackson Pollock (or similar) on the other side. And then they claim the realistic painting is "real art".
There is lot of technical/reproductive skill in what she does. But art is something else.
Art has to do with "having something to say". 

So, sorry, i disagree with you


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## robgb (Dec 5, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> Your comment sound like those posts on 9GAG, where they post an image with a realistic street painting (or similar) on one side, and a painting by Jackson Pollock (or similar) on the other side. And then they claim the realistic painting is "real art".
> There is lot of technical/reproductive skill in what she does. But art is something else.
> Art has to do with "having something to say".
> 
> So, sorry, i disagree with you


Don't be sorry unless you feel bad about it.


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## whiskers (Dec 5, 2018)

David Cuny said:


> Foolishly feeding the troll , Wikipedia disagrees:
> 
> 
> Being a child prodigy doesn't mean that you can skip the hard work:
> ...


Lovely piece.



> At Zeitgeist Minds, she explained: "Lots of people think that the difficult part of composing is to get the ideas, but actually that just comes to me. The difficult bit is then to sit down with that idea, to develop it, to combine it with other ideas in a coherent way. Because it's very easy to throw a soup of lots of ideas which don't make any sense together. But to sit down and develop and combine it, and afterwards to tweak it and to polish it – that takes ages..."



Didn't know there was ever debate about that part though. Developing the ideas and making them sound good is always the hard part, it seems like. Maybe not for everyone, IDK.


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## novaburst (Dec 5, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well thank you. You guys are a bunch of babies



+1 I would also say the word naïve is all over this thread.


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## Chr!s (Dec 5, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> but the road should leave into the present



History is not something that is on the this linear, deterministic path toward an inevitable endpoint, where we can never go back.

The standards for art, and life in general, are dismally low today and they masquerade as simply being "different" or sometimes even "innovative". Everyone with a smartphone and filters, clothing optional, can be a "model" today, even if they're not "conventionally attractive"; people who play in "esports" are increasingly counted as real "athletes" in their own right, and some amorphous blobs on a page are art because it totally "has something to say". 

So apparently that makes you just as valid a model as like Lisa Welch or Jenny McCarthy were back in the day, you're just as great as Michael Jordan was, and you're just as talented as Da Vinci or other renaissance artists.

I don't think anyone _really_ believes this nonsense, it's just a cop-out. The thing about standards is they will have a high point, and we remember this high point and it transcends the ages.

Why do you think that there are all of these rock and pop bands today who aspire to sound like 70s or 80s acts, despite none of their members being alive in that time period? It can't be nostalgia. Why are John Williams, Goldsmith, Morricone, etc. still so revered by fans and composers alike if their day and style has truly passed? Why are practical effects making such a comeback in film if CGI is the future?

It's because all of these things were simply better. As much as people want to believe that all of these newer composers and bands really _could_ write great melodies, or play face-melting guitar solos, or complex polyphonic pieces, but simply _don't_ because that's "dated" or whatever — it's just delusion.

"New", "different" and "innovative" don't matter if they're crap compared to the previously established standard. So if people want to write music or make art that is representative of the higher standards of days long past — I only encourage it!


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## whiskers (Dec 5, 2018)

So much salt in this thread


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> History is not something that is on the this linear, deterministic path toward an inevitable endpoint.
> ...
> It's because all of these things were simply better. As much as people want to believe that all of these newer composers and bands really _could_ write great melodies, or play face-melting guitar solos, or complex polyphonic pieces, but simply _don't_ because that's "dated" or whatever — it's just delusion.
> 
> "New", "different" and "innovative" don't matter if they're crap compared to the previously established standard. So if people want to write music or make art that is representative of the higher standards of days long past — I only encourage it!



You project lots of things on my statement that have absolutely nothing to do with what i wrote.
First, i never claimed that "history is a linear, deterministic path...."
That's a bold assumption.
I spoke of the road leading into the present.
With "present" i don't mean any superficial features.
It's about - you obviously ignored relevant parts of what i wrote - reflecting the time one lives in. When you communicate, you always have your foundation in the present. Because the anchorage in the presence is what gives relevance to those things you reflect in your communication.
If you parrot the _vocabulary_ of an epoch that is over, you basically are doing exercises.
That's ok. But it's not art.
Art is about substance. It's about substantial statements.
And yes, sometimes you can recycle old styles to do substantial statements.
But, in almost every case, it won't work without modification.
Because modification is always a carrier for substance.
Just keep an eye on how Mozart and Beethoven reflected the baroque era.
It wasn't 1:1
Or look at Gustav Mahler reflecting the "Wunderhorn" topic. It was looking back.
But: looking back from a standpoint founded in _his_ present life.
Or Stravinsky's reflections over an archaic culture in the Sacre.
etc, etc.
And by the way, by adding Morricone and Goldsmith to your list of alleged epigones (also an utter allegation, if pointed against my statement) you obviously leave the ground of founded statements.
Morricone's use of unusual sounds was groundbreaking modern.
And Goldsmith is an example for the relevance of knowing _when_ you have to use which stylistic elements.
If you keep an eye on his harmonic language used in Basic Instinct, or if you look of the way he used the mouth organ in "Magic" [just to mention two of countless examples], you would see how absurd it is, to compare accomplished masters to children who practise by imitation...

I agree in maintaining "the higher standards of days long past".
But: you only can maintain them, if you're founded in the present time.
Otherwise, you will use vocabulary without meaning.


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## Chr!s (Dec 5, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> That's ok. But it's not art.



No offence, but this kind of thing always makes me cringe. This whole: what is or isn't "art". Like, as if suddenly being called "art" is to bestow you with some high honor that deems you "worthy".

It's like when people debate whether video games are or are not art: Who cares.

Art is defined as the application of one's creative skill or imagination. It has no other objective criteria in which to define it. 



Living Fossil said:


> And by the way, by adding Morricone and Goldsmith to your list of alleged epigones (also an utter allegation, if pointed against my statement) you obviously leave the ground of founded statements.



These guys were obviously capable of composing music of the same quality, caliber, general style and standard of the others I mentioned. 

Again, doing something that's "different" doesn't matter if it isn't good. I don't think this applies in my examples.



Living Fossil said:


> You project lots of things on my statement that have absolutely nothing to do with what i wrote.
> First, i never claimed that "history is a linear, deterministic path...."



I don't think it's bold assumption to say that this is what you claim when you say that the road "should" leave into the present.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> No offence, but this kind of thing always makes me cringe. This whole: what is or isn't "art". Like, as if suddenly being called "art" is to bestow you with some high honor that deems you "worthy".



Ok, obviously you're not interested in grasping what i write but prefer to project assumptions.
For a last time: it's not about some "high honor" or being "worthy". It's about having something substantial to say. (btw. video games quite often have something substantial to say...)

And as a living being, substantial statements are always founded in your own life.
"Your own life" takes place in the present time. That's what defines the term "present".
No more, no less.
Even if it gives you a good feeling to attack straw man arguments, please stick to facts that are mentioned...


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## Chr!s (Dec 5, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> It's about having something substantial to say. (btw. video games quite often have something substantial to say...)



What does this mean?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> What does this mean?



It means that you, as a subjective being, reflect aspects of your perception/life in a way that has relevance to others.
It's about extracting structures/mechanisms that harbor insights.


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## Chr!s (Dec 5, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> It means that you, as a subjective being, reflect aspects of your perception/life in a way that has relevance to others.
> It's about extracting structures/mechanisms that harbor insights.



I'm still not sure what that is.

How do I determine if music has that or not? How do I reflect aspects of my life or perception in something like music? How can I be sure other people are "getting it"? If they're not getting it, does that mean my work says nothing? How many people have to get it before I can be sure that it says something substantial?


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> I'm still not sure what that is.



Maybe you should take a nap and then try reading it again.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2018)

What? I'm just trying to be helpful.


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## Chr!s (Dec 5, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Maybe you should take a nap and then try reading it again.



Maybe you should answer the questions


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> I'm still not sure what that is.
> 
> How do I determine if music has that or not? How do I reflect aspects of my life or perception in something like music? How can I be sure other people are "getting it"? If they're not getting it, does that mean my work says nothing? How many people have to get it before I can be sure that it says something substantial?



Now, these are good questions. I guess, the answers might be subjective.
That's a tough and complex area and usually, it takes lots of time, until the relevance of an artist can be valued in an adequate manner [but i'm sure that lots of great artists never get the attention they deserved].
For me, an effective method to judge "epigonal" pieces relies in comparing them to the "originals". (And sometimes, it's the shortfalls of epigonal pieces that improve my respect for the "originals")
There is a huge existing knowledge about musical hermeneutics. These tools can help you to analyse the core of the inner network of a specific piece of music in order to approach the specific "substance". To put it in an overly simplified way: relevant works always use models to a certain extent. But at a specific point, the model is distorted/modified. What follows, is a stringent justification for the inconsequence. And the justification carries the "message".
You find this pattern in every substantial piece of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc, etc, etc.
I don't hear any of this in AD's exercises.
I hear this pattern sometimes in music that doesn't represent my personal preferences - e.g. Rap music; hip hop etc etc.
So i guess, while it's impossible to make clear distinctions, there are parameters one can approach by listening carefullly...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 5, 2018)

novaburst said:


> +1 I would also say the word naïve is all over this thread.



Yes, perfectly descriptive!


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## gregh (Dec 5, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> It means that you, as a subjective being, reflect aspects of your perception/life in a way that has relevance to others.
> It's about extracting structures/mechanisms that harbor insights.


and if what you do is popular it means your idea of insight (and your ability to build music that reflects that insight to you) etc is shared by many others.

Similarly if you think it is a successful piece and are happy with it as "good music" then your insights are probably being shared by people whose taste and opinions matter to you and who tell you that is so. That might be a fairly small number of people, but if you really value their judgement then you will be pleased and feel successful. 

If you are lucky then those two different aspects of social acceptance coincide.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 6, 2018)

gregh said:


> If you are lucky then those two different aspects of social acceptance coincide.



Absolutely Greg. There is a case (that might be applicable to AD for example), for encouraging originality that lies beyond the immediate perception of many if the talent is there. Assuming the determination and perhaps personal conviction of an artist, regardless of life situation to go down that route, the attitude that Living Fossil succinctly alludes to below...



Living Fossil said:


> It means that you, as a subjective being, reflect aspects of your perception/life in a way that has relevance to others.
> It's about extracting structures/mechanisms that harbor insights.



_..._...feels right to me. For me, any aspiring artist should be encouraged to find their own balance within and not be beholden to the whims of popularity - rather the dictates of what they feel they need. I suggest that an artist who develops in this manner is more likely to have an impact and garner sincere, honest relevance in people's minds. As Greg intimates, one has an ideal audience even if only fictitious/imaginary for most, but regardless, success and achievement can be measured in several ways (I am only talking about high brow concert music btw).


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## gregh (Dec 6, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> Absolutely Greg. There is a case (that might be applicable to AD for example), for encouraging originality that lies beyond the immediate perception of many if the talent is there. Assuming the determination and perhaps personal conviction of an artist, regardless of life situation to go down that route, the attitude that Living Fossil succinctly alludes to below...
> 
> 
> 
> _..._...feels right to me. For me, any aspiring artist should be encouraged to find their own balance within and not be beholden to the whims of popularity - rather the dictates of what they feel they need. I suggest that an artist who develops in this manner is more likely to have an impact and garner sincere, honest relevance in people's minds. As Greg intimates, one has an ideal audience even if only fictitious/imaginary for most, but regardless, success and achievement can be measured in several ways (I am only talking about high brow concert music btw).



I've written on this topic in a book review from a few years ago (OMG it is 14 years ago!)

"Art practice can be seen as a component within the exchange of representations. The dominant social practice is to transmit core representations–representations that are read immediately by many–and most art has this function. However art also has an exploratory function within the space of all possible representations - from an evolutionary perspective it is adaptive for the group to have a representation space available that allows for understanding the present environment whilst also being able to represent possible environments. Such a system makes the group robust in the face of environmental change. Innovative art practice can then be interpreted as a claim for the necessity to foreground new representational parameters, such as chance events, abstract forms, and biological systems, or as a claim that areas of the existing representation space are under-explored or under-represented within the core. It is inevitable that most explorations will end in failure–if the world is changing in unexpected ways then some artworks will get the future right and others will not. And artworks that were once radical explorations can become core if the changed circumstances they represent lock in over time."

http://www.realtimearts.net/article/issue60/7376


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 6, 2018)

gregh said:


> I've written on this topic in a book review from a few years ago (OMG it is 14 years ago!)
> 
> "Art practice can be seen as a component within the exchange of representations. The dominant social practice is to transmit core representations–representations that are read immediately by many–and most art has this function. However art also has an exploratory function within the space of all possible representations - from an evolutionary perspective it is adaptive for the group to have a representation space available that allows for understanding the present environment whilst also being able to represent possible environments. Such a system makes the group robust in the face of environmental change. Innovative art practice can then be interpreted as a claim for the necessity to foreground new representational parameters, such as chance events, abstract forms, and biological systems, or as a claim that areas of the existing representation space are under-explored or under-represented within the core. It is inevitable that most explorations will end in failure–if the world is changing in unexpected ways then some artworks will get the future right and others will not. And artworks that were once radical explorations can become core if the changed circumstances they represent lock in over time."
> 
> http://www.realtimearts.net/article/issue60/7376



Oh..I _LIKE_ that Greg.... Darwinian music....eloquently stated and for me, also implies the value of technique - one missed by people who decry it - the ability to explore unchartered space _confidently_, whilst retaining a tangible link to perceived normality, thus retaining a sense at least of progress if only in the mind of the writer. Proclivities decide if the artist discards the foundations of course, once new space has been found.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 6, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> Maybe you should answer the questions



Why bother interfering with your pretended ignorance?


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## Chr!s (Dec 6, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Why bother interfering with your pretended ignorance?



There is no "pretended ignorance". What is with the 'tude, dude?

I'll be honest with you, I still don't really get what living fossil is getting at. I think it has to do with personal style.

Here's the way _I_ see it: Music, like all art, is ultimately a craft, and a craft can be learned. Therefore, there is really only "good" and "bad", and you'll find that through history, there were certain, generally unanimously accepted standards for "good" and people long to see it return decades or centuries later. Even Mozart's "musical joke" is a damn great piece. _Especially by today's standards_.

I know that may sound like an overly materialistic view on something that we can apply so many immaterial philosophies to and we can partake in for immaterial reasons, but we still have to acknowledge the material reality.

This thread starts off with a girl who is just trying to make good music, and it happens to be reminiscent of a bygone age instead of taking easy road and going with the lowest common denominator.

What does she get for it?

Shit on with a bunch of elitist nonsense for not being original enough by people who are also probably nothing terribly ground-breaking, and unfounded accusations of being some privileged, ruling class, elite "wunderkind".

Sorry, but I'm not seeing what the problem with _her_ is. Hope for humanity hasn't risen too much.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 6, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> Here's the way _I_ see it: Music, like all art, is ultimately a craft, and a craft can be learned.



I guess this way to think is what hinders you in understanding.
Art is more than a craft.
Craft is a (big) part of art.
But creativity is much more than craft.
(maybe it would be useful for you to reread some posts and try to understand them. It's quite destructive to oppose things that one doesn't understand)


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## Chr!s (Dec 6, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> I guess this way to think is what hinders you in understanding.
> Art is more than a craft.
> Craft is a (big) part of art.
> But creativity is much more than craft.
> (maybe it would be useful for you to reread some posts and try to understand them. It's quite destructive to oppose things that one doesn't understand)



Maybe, but I don't think it _actually matters_ to be honest. It's just subjective, philosophical debate to try and justify why X isn't as much art as Y or whatever.

A composer I know told me once that the more "artistic" someone is, the less affinity they have for conventional thinking or even just common decency — in time, I've come to see that he's right.

I stand by my point regarding the girl. There's just nothing here that justifies the amount of asshurt in this thread.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 6, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> Maybe, but I don't think it _actually matters_ to be honest. It's just subjective, philosophical debate to try and justify why X isn't as much art as Y or whatever.



Two things.
1.)
Musical hermeneutics and musical semantics are far more than subjective, philosophical debates. They are areas of the humanities that were formed over several centuries. 
That you don't know this part of musicology doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 
That you obviously have no noteworthy knowledge on this area doesn't give you the competence to judge it (that would be a typical Dunning-Krueger)
You put yourself on the standpoint (at least in this discussion) that if you ignore something, it automatically ceases to exist.
However, that's not the case.
Ignoring gravitation won't stop you falling if you jump down a cliff...

2.)
Of course you are completely free to like AD's music and see a source of personal joy and benefit in it. There can't be any dictates of taste and appreciation.


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## Chr!s (Dec 6, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> Musical hermeneutics and musical semantics



This is not something that anyone beyond academic types care about, man. 99% of people will have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.

People want to hear good music, and the composer's job is simply to write the best music that they can, and that may appeal to different individual tastes. But we can compare certain types and techniques over time that are largely accepted as better or good practice.



Living Fossil said:


> Of course you are completely free to like AD's music and see a source of personal joy and benefit in it. There can't be any dictates of taste and appreciation.



You must understand my issue here:

_This is a thread of mostly middle-age men getting on high-horses and arguments because a 12-year-old girl is making music that doesn't appeal to their sensibilities_.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 6, 2018)

Well, Chris, I hope you don't include this middle-aged git in your generality. I have nothing but praise and hope for her and see nothing wrong with informed speculation about how her future may develop. As for "elitist nonsense", the paradigms talked about here are not media/utility music influenced and are based on necessarily deeper understandings of the craft and art of music because of what it actually takes to even attempt profound (even original!) utterances in concert music. If you don't get that, don't be so dismissive. AD is a rare phenomenon and I hope she develops into an important composer. Of course, if she gets into Epic music you had all better watch out...


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## Living Fossil (Dec 6, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> This is not something that anyone beyond academic types care about, man. 99% of people will have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.



Same goes for quantum physics. Still, doesn't make it inexistent or useless.



Chr!s said:


> You must understand my issue here:
> 
> _This is a thread of mostly middle-age men getting on high-horses and arguments because a 12-year-old girl is making music that doesn't appeal to their sensibilities_.



I can only speak for myself: Personally, i'm deeply disgusted by the way she's exploited.I don't think it's a good thing to hype children and expose them to a large public.
And i also don't see an artistic justification for the produced hype. I think she is still far away from having found a voice as an artist which would make it useful to expose her to the public.
At the moment, it's much too early and this may spoil her or even ruin her career on the long run. It's like picking a peach from a tree while it's still green.

And: When you write "men" and "girl" i only miss that you write "white privileged men". I'm sure not a single person in this forum cares about the gender of a specific Wunderkind.


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## Jerry Growl (Dec 6, 2018)

I'm not going to read all of the above. Sorry guys.

First time I heard about her.
As an improvising pianist I was pretty entertained by her wits:



I do like the way her brain works.
She dances, giggles and noodles like a kid even though her playing blocks are solid music schooling and great performing skills. No harm done. Some will probably call here odd. But that's usually a complement.


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## Chr!s (Dec 6, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> Well, Chris, I hope you don't include this middle-aged git in your generality.



I don't.



mikeh-375 said:


> As for "elitist nonsense", the paradigms talked about here are not media/utility music influenced and are based on necessarily deeper understandings of the craft and art of music because of what it actually takes to even attempt profound (even original!) utterances in concert music. If you don't get that, don't be so dismissive



My issue with the deeper understanding that you refer to is that I don't agree that it really matters in creating "meaning" or something great and transcendent of time.

I fail to see any of "musical semantics" and whatever else in something like Beethoven's 5th or Fur Elise. The latter could've been about anything else for all I know. It could've been titled differently, and it would've been just as great.

I can't remember which piece it was, one that was supposed to be about the moon, but a friend of mine told me that he was listening to it while driving and his daughter was in her car seat and she said "It sounds like the moon, daddy." So, obviously, we have a composer who is capable of conveying these semantics to even children. The idea that this inherently elevates his work to some higher value is absurd; it's just snobbery.

Much like any other form of symbolism, like the color red and what it "means" are simply _tools_ you can use to convey a message. But they are largely cultural, and do not necessarily have universally understood meanings, and such meanings are also dependent on the individual.

I could sit here and probably derive some perceived "deeper meaning" in this girls music, and as long as I use enough persuasive, florid language in my argument, I could prove nearly any point I want to make. "See! There is a meaning! You plebs just don't notice it!" The idea that her music, or any music, must have this sort of symbolic relevance and "say something" to be "art" is little more than intellectual masturbation.

I don't even mean to insult anybody with that, but that's just the way I honestly feel about it.


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## cola2410 (Dec 6, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> For me, an effective method to judge "epigonal" pieces relies in comparing them to the "originals". (And sometimes, it's the shortfalls of epigonal pieces that improve my respect for the "originals")
> There is a huge existing knowledge about musical hermeneutics. These tools can help you to analyse the core of the inner network of a specific piece of music in order to approach the specific "substance". To put it in an overly simplified way: relevant works always use models to a certain extent. But at a specific point, the model is distorted/modified. What follows, is a stringent justification for the inconsequence. And the justification carries the "message".
> You find this pattern in every substantial piece of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc, etc, etc.
> I don't hear any of this in AD's exercises.
> ...


This is something I'm able to carefully concur with even if at the end it sounds offensive to someone. As long as I'm involved in AI development it seems like neural networks used for prediction and pattern recognition work the same way as our "still human" brain (and some of them modeled directly after neocortex) and I'm utterly upset about what we may face in a very near future. Living Fossil, you're absolutely right about the pattern and some expected model mutation. So how to force a mutation - introduce some distortive force and in AI it's usually represented by some external artifically created noise that is a perfect example for the social/musical/political/etc environment. The distortion is essential to the quality of the model for the sake of prediction capabilities because following the same pattern eventually leads to the model degradation and lack of aiblities to react to slight changes in the environment. Actually among the others there is another method of improving the predictions called "ensembles" by combining different model types together even if alone they don't produce good results. Just think about how it again corresponds to human collaboration.

Mutation, or "message" is good, following or layering over the same pattern again and again does not improve its quality and leads to conversion of the "brain" to a sort of finite-state machine what makes it amazingly vulnerable to unexpected influences or even slight change in the input data.

And yes, it happens in any music style.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 7, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chris...Glad to hear it..
We might be at crossed purposes here. I mostly listen to music without much regard for any semantics suggested in titles and agree that they are often not necessary. Neither am I (in my posts) suggesting that any literary reference or anything else extra-musical that is associated with a work, elevates it beyond the norm - in fact generally speaking, I agree with you on the point you make about Beethoven's 5th for example and cultural interpretation, although there are many exceptions where an understanding of the composer's intent does enhance the listening. There is a case for necessary elitism in musical taste as you learn more about the craft, but that is a different debate, although one relevant to AD.
What I am suggesting is that in music that aspires to a higher level of attainment, be that personal or communal ( in the concert hall), the profundity required needs a corresponding depth of knowledge and mastery of the craft because the goal will be impossible to reach without those foundational skills and the discovering of one's inner voice by attaining those skills.
In AD's case, I believe relevance is an issue, because she sounds like pastiche at present, one that any competent undergrad composer can also emulate and in a style for which the final word has been emphatically written. She is more than that and in time I hope she finds an original way.
I ask you, how many kids today dance to Bach's Matthew Passion? Not many (it is hard to twerk to I've found..try it). Relevance affects every aspect of cultural creativity and is an essential engine to keep art alive. This is not snobbery or intellectual wanking, it's survival and echoing Cola's post above, we need extraordinarily gifted people like AD to distort the model, not revert back to a time that will stagnate us..."darling have you seen my ear trumpet"...


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## Chr!s (Dec 7, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> There is a case for necessary elitism in musical taste as you learn more about the craft, but that is a different debate, although one relevant to AD.



I don't disagree, but I again say this elitism in this thread is being applied to a 12-year-old writing this kind of music at a time where even 30-year-olds prefer cracked FL studio and premade beats and loops



mikeh-375 said:


> This is not snobbery or intellectual wanking, it's survival.



I question if this — the survival aspect — really is the case. I've heard people say this for as long as I can remember: "The band changed their style to a more contemporary one to stay relevant" but then that band's newer stuff never sells as well, no one goes to their concerts to see it, and the band basically becomes a cover version of themselves. How many Skid Row songs can anyone remember after Slave to The Grind? The albums afterward are a lot more contemporary, but no one cares.

Fact is, most music will be forgotten. But stuff like Vivaldi's Four Seasons, The Raiders March, or Stairway To Heaven have, and will endure. JJayBerthume on Youtube has tons of followers and most of his music most would say sounds "dated". Yet, he's been scoring video games, teaching, and writing concert pieces since he was a teenager. I don't think he or his music is irrelevant.

Is dubstep still a thing anymore? I don't hear it on the radio at all anymore, nor does anyone who used to make it seem to do so anymore. I haven't heard or seen anything from Skrillex in years now. Is he still really relevant?

Because of the fact that certain styles are still imitated, and many pieces from that era have endured moreso than other trends that have come and gone through the ages, I can't really get behind the idea that following currently relevant practices is much of a means to survive.

In my opinion, finding your own sound within previously established paradigms that are accepted as a high standard and that you like is the best course of action, and it's what I'm trying to do myself. I'd rather be like Van Halen than Korn, and I'd rather be like Vivaldi than trailer music. Even if the latter are more "relevant" to young people today.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 7, 2018)

Somehow, the title of this thread makes me think of scotch.


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## Gerbil (Dec 7, 2018)

The content makes me think of insanity.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 7, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> I don't disagree, but I again say this elitism in this thread is being applied to a 12-year-old writing this kind of music at a time where even 30-year-olds prefer cracked FL studio and premade beats and loops



More crossed purpose here Chris. I was talking about a specific genre of composition and performance. I can't disagree with the above of course, but it is not (at least at present) relevant to AD given her current focus.

I'm sure you've figured that what seems to endure in art, more often than not is (among other traits) innovation, quality or a piece that succinctly sums up a generation by culling the groping around by lesser peers in their search for a zeitgeist/voice. What our proposed genius then does thanks to choices made by their brilliance and instinct is create a sort of meta work whose innovation seems, with hindsight, obvious. These works/songs/soundtracks et al often suggest new ways and become templates for the next generation who then stamp on their own relevance/personalities and so it continues. We are surely hard wired to progress and find new fields to explore and this trait has to be intimately linked with survival - in life and art.



Chr!s said:


> In my opinion, finding your own sound within previously established paradigms that are accepted as a high standard and that you like is the best course of action, and it's what I'm trying to do myself. I'd rather be like Van Halen than Korn, and I'd rather be like Vivaldi than trailer music. Even if the latter are more "relevant" to young people today.



Now this is something I absolutely agree with but would add the proviso that you also need a sense of adventure in order to stand out a bit more from the noise of the gropers....innovation to survive can mean earning money too...right?


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 7, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> The content makes me think of insanity.


Why? 
Nowt wrong with a decent discussion now and again.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 7, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> I fail to see any of "musical semantics" and whatever else in something like Beethoven's 5th...



On the one side you admit that you have no idea about musical semantics, on the other side you still think that you have the competence to state that you don't see _any of "musical semantics" and whatever else in something like Beethoven's 5th_...(so suggesting that there is none).
No offense, but it is _because_ of your lack of understanding that you fail to see it. And if you had some understanding you could clearly see that it is full of empirically determinable semantic chiffres, models etc. etc.
It's really annoying, when people confuse ignorance with competence.
_"I don't care about science, but i can clearly see that the earth is flat, so we live on a flat earth"_.


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## Gerbil (Dec 7, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> Why?
> Nowt wrong with a decent discussion now and again.



It's certainly been entertaining and....enlightening


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 7, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> It's certainly been entertaining and....enlightening



Hopefully in a good way Gerbil.......


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## cola2410 (Dec 7, 2018)

I would add a little more.
Some people get scared or angry if someone questions their ability to create but we have a serious threat now because humans were never considered as the super-efficient creatures who are able to invent. For instance, our data transfer channels are very slow and the dominant one is vision for most and hearing for some, other channels are ridiculously slow and non-informative enough even compared to animals. And of course we typically spend years to train our brains using these very limited channels and repeat the same several times for our children not having enough time to develop ourselves.
On the other side, AI has virtually unlimited bandwidth for specifically prepared input data and unlimited power when enough electricity is provided (I'm not talking about CPU/GPU efficiency itself because you can achieve mostly the same by building a monstrous machine than wait for a new-generation CPU to come). With tensor chips recently made available for public anyone can experiment and question himself about whether we are unique enough to differentiate ourselves from machines.

https://www.chess.com/news/view/updated-alphazero-crushes-stockfish-in-new-1-000-game-match
"In several games, AlphaZero sacrificed pieces for long-term strategic advantage, suggesting that it has a more fluid, context-dependent positional evaluation than the rule-based evaluations used by previous chess programs"
AI can beat any human in virtually any type of the game if the rules are provided without any supervision. Upload classical music theory in it along with several hundred operas and just wait for a couple of days for another AD?

https://kotaku.com/the-best-moments-from-a-twitch-conversation-between-two-1790907744
AI is already able to entertain itself but the most scary part is that from the conversation it may be indistinguishable from a human.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 7, 2018)

But that's all irrelevant to me. Computers will be better at computing, go figure. Being human to me was always about entirely different qualities, and those are things an AI will never be capable of. The rest is scientism.


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## ghostnote (Dec 7, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> ...and those are things an AI will never be capable of.


Based on my observation of those highly irrational beeings you all call Humans, there's nothing much left that can surprise me anymore: There will be art made by AI and Robots - it already has been - and it will sell ...well big. Just take a look what Humans consider as art:



Speaking ontopic: The world is not black and white. Is this girl good at what she's doing? Yes, as many have been before. Is her work highly derivative? Yes, but that's not important at this point. But will this save serious music? That's the big question here. I doubt that. I've seen 200+ classical concerts in my rather young life and I've noticed the decline of people who are interested month by month. 80% are over 60 years old. Unless there are names attached to it like David Garret or Daniil Trifonov, there is not much interest. Youth orchestras, operas for kids, etc. probably won't change this trend.

Jimmy Hellfire seems to have an aversion against those people, probably thinking all of them are rich snobs, opportunists, lobbying and he's partly right, but as much as ignorant those people might appear so is the uneducated mass, the other side of the spectrum. With the democratization of things there is less and less respect towards other people, on both sides, which is increasing dynamically. People will always fight something they don't understand, simply because understanding takes effort. For example, a school friend of mine got bullied because he played the trombone. There is something in the air, an attitude that it's not worth to understand certain things or getting better at something, develop taste and character and it's increasing with the influence of the internet.


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## cola2410 (Dec 7, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Being human to me was always about entirely different qualities, and those are things an AI will never be capable of. The rest is scientism.


I would seriously question human qualities and its profound differences from machines in, say, a decade from now. One of the Berkley professors once said - the day machines start mimicking our behaviour and emotional expression trying to learn from us would be the first day of the world's end as we know it. Craft covered, next is emotion with empathy then humans finished.
Actually we are no more than a combination of 100 billion neurons, passing signals to each other via as many as 1,000 trillion synaptic connections, equivalent by some estimates to a computer with a 1 trillion bit per second processor with brain’s memory capacity vary wildly from 1 to 1,000 terabytes and all this is encapsulated in a self-sustained biological machine to produce power for it.

And according to


ghostnote said:


> There is something in the air, an attitude that it's not worth to understand certain things or getting better at something, develop taste and character and it's increasing with the influence of the internet.


humans don't actually use or require all this power to communicate with each other so machines can easily exist in the human society without any trouble, at least virtually. Personally I'm far from thinking of us being unique or irreplaceable. I don't think so. At the same time our body fails when we desperately need it to function - when we finally get smarter with age and ready to break the boundaries of the past and present. Don't you think it's unfair?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 7, 2018)

cola2410 said:


> I would seriously question human qualities and its profound differences from machines in, say, a decade from now. One of the Berkley professors once said - the day machines start mimicking our behaviour and emotional expression trying to learn from us would be the first day of the world's end as we know it. Craft covered, next is emotion with empathy then humans finished.
> Actually we are no more than a combination of 100 billion neurons, passing signals to each other via as many as 1,000 trillion synaptic connections, equivalent by some estimates to a computer with a 1 trillion bit per second processor with brain’s memory capacity vary wildly from 1 to 1,000 terabytes and all this is encapsulated in a self-sustained biological machine to produce power for it.



Well yeah, that's the scientism way of looking at things, which honestly, is just a loss of perspective when you break it down. It's also a form of cultural pessimism, but it doesn't make it true. 

It's a sign of the times, since modern life has developed from industrialisation over mass reproduction all the way to the age of the model and the algorithm. We live in times where people have come to believe that faking it actually _does_ equal making it, and that if it looks, sounds, smells and seems real, there is no difference to that which _is_ real. A diminished sensory apparatus is the reason for this lack of perspective. Humans today are very insecure of what constitutes their being, and these kinds of views are a testament to that.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 7, 2018)

ghostnote said:


> There is something in the air, an attitude that it's not worth to understand certain things or getting better at something, develop taste and character and it's increasing with the influence of the internet.



I also see this trend in relation to music for sure but also in other disciplines. Cola's AI might entrench that attitude once it passes a 'Musical Masterwork in the guise of a Turing test' and even before then, given the apps that seem to come out regularly making things easy for those who don't study. But then again art is personal, not binary and there will always be a human spirit that needs to express itself and the best expressions in concert art music, the enduring ones, are written with deep understanding of the craft.
As an aside I am still amazed that I feel I have to defend study and knowledge in composition, I mean how does a pianist play concertos without the fundamental security of practice, scales, arpeggios? How do you write to the best of your ability without knowing about what options you have? Why is it different? it ain't. Snobbish? Elitist?..... bollocks. If so, my plumber is such a ponce because he can weld pipe together and I can't...sorry guys..mini old git rant...


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## cola2410 (Dec 7, 2018)

I'm sorry )


Jimmy Hellfire said:


> We live in times where people have come to believe that faking it actually _does_ equal making it, and that if it looks, sounds, smells and seems real, there is no difference to that which _is_ real.


Actually it's no different from when you smile at an infant and a baby smiles back at you without knowing yet it means an expression of a certain emotion. First they imitate then start copy the parent's behavour and so on. Meanwhile, the big question here is the definition of _real_. At certain point AI will have its own definition of _real _for sure simply because its senses could be more advanced and more efficiently used to enrich and develop itself. Simply speaking they also may like music they create and of course their music could be absolutely non-musical for us, for example, if it exists in ultrasound range. This will be a different race eventually.


mikeh-375 said:


> As an aside I am still amazed that I feel I have to defend study and knowledge in composition, I mean how does a pianist play concertos without the fundamental security of practice, scales, arpeggios? How do you write to the best of your ability without knowing about what options you have? Why is it different? it ain't.


I may probably answer tat. If we look at music history actually theory almost always comes second. First we get an extremely gifted individual who does something nobody did before then some theory supports it. Can it be reproduced in AI? Yes. Developing a pattern sometimes requires breaking it and starting from scratch or from some point if the pattern is solidified and resistent to noise. In such scenario starting from the beginning may use some initial or side information (what we call subconscious in our world) and requires very focused extreme speed learning process. Actually it's no different from a gifted child with extreme brain speeds and supersensitivity who is raised in isolation from any disturbance. So we have a pattern that may achieve the same result much faster than the previous one and even do something more but at the same time it's limited and very unstable to external influence because of very little information used during the development. It's like a shortcut.
Yes we value hard work and spending 10,000 hours to become good and noticeable at something but honestly, it doesn't make much sense feeling myself elitist only because of that. I know there is someone who is able to do the same in much less time and I can't do anything about.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 7, 2018)

Not sure we completely tally there Cola.
I'm pretty sure nobody writes worthwhile concert/classical music without at least a basic understanding first, even genius - I mean, you can't score without some idea of technicalities. Crucially, I wonder if you are missing what theory means to a composer - what it actually does. The point about theory is that when studied properly, it allows you to find yourself, your voice by a process of discovery, discarding techniques deemed uninteresting and pursuing techniques that give you a twitch in your guts. You discover your own instincts as you learn, it's a two way street. When mastered, theory becomes instinctive and is your guide as you explore. It is not about being elitist at all, it's about your personal journey and how you want to travel. 
I don't doubt the AI analogue (wrong term sorry) to this process, but there is a human need to be as good as we can, and in that striving is where the art is I believe.


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## cola2410 (Dec 7, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> Not sure we completely tally there Cola.
> Nobody writes worthwhile concert/classical music without at least a basic understanding first, even genius. Crucially, I wonder if you are missing what theory means to a composer - what it actually does. The point about theory is that when studied properly, it allows you to find yourself, your voice by a process of discovery, discarding techniques deemed uninteresting and pursuing techniques that give you a twitch in your guts. You discover your own instincts as you learn, it's a two way street. When mastered, theory becomes instinctive and is your guide as you explore. It is not about being elitist at all, it's about your personal journey and how you want to travel.


I think I understand what you mean and it's a personal perspective. Yes basic understanding and using relevant tools helps a lot but for some no help required. Even in my school there were kids who started playing piano or singing with right intonation by 4. Of course everybody starts from playing anything consonant or pleasantly sounding but there were few exceptions who liked pink panther more than jingle bells at a very early age. Most of us follow the same way simply because we can't go anywhere else without a guide. But... there are exceptions. Yes theory provides support and eventually fuels their amazing vehicles but they can get there without any support, but slower.
Lets take a different example - I knew a couple of students at my university who actually solved problems in their minds without any written explanation and there was one who easily multiplied big numbers and said he just saw the result in his mind. 
Personal experience is subjective and achievement is objective. Yes every human is unique because of unique experiences but who eventually cares if he can't show it or express in some way for later use by next generation. As one of my teachers said - there are "bright" people. They learn fast, they find solutions and ways, they decrypt things and recover amazingly fast. Their abilities may lead them to nowhere but at least we have them (AD). Let them first improve themselves and ourselves after because if we ever compete with AI we are outdone. But they are not.


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## Chr!s (Dec 7, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> On the one side you admit that you have no idea about musical semantics, on the other side you still think that you have the competence to state that you don't see _any of "musical semantics" and whatever else in something like Beethoven's 5th_...(so suggesting that there is none).
> No offense, but it is _because_ of your lack of understanding that you fail to see it. And if you had some understanding you could clearly see that it is full of empirically determinable semantic chiffres, models etc. etc.
> It's really annoying, when people confuse ignorance with competence.
> _"I don't care about science, but i can clearly see that the earth is flat, so we live on a flat earth"_.



Why don't you go ahead and enlighten us all to what semantics and "meaning" there are in the 5th Symphony instead of slinging mud from your high horse?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 7, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> Why don't you go ahead and enlighten us all to what semantics and "meaning" there are in the 5th Symphony instead of slinging mud from your high horse?



The presentation of a reasonable analysis of the 5th would take at least about 1 hour (when in youtube format), and sorry, no, i'm not doing unpaid extra work. It's not a "high horse" when you have learned and studied many aspects of your profession.
But i really would encourage you (and every other composer) to spend some time on this topic. It's really extremely interesting and enriching.


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## Chr!s (Dec 7, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> The presentation of a reasonable analysis of the 5th would take at least about 1 hour (when in youtube format), and sorry, no, i'm not doing unpaid extra work.



You know, that's interesting.

I made a thread about that a while back:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/is-online-help-a-blessing-a-curse-or-both.77228/

All I'm asking for is one example.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 7, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> All I'm asking for is one example.



I doubt it has more sense then listening only to the main seconds of the symphony.
However, if you want one aspect, here you are:
The 5th is usually seen as the prime example for an inner "per aspera ad astra" program.
On the most basic level, you can see this on the tonalities of the 4 movements:
c-minor; Ab-major; c-minor; C-major.
The famous main motiv has a dramatic falling gesture: g-g-g-eb; 
The main motiv of the 4th movement starts with a triumphant ascending gesture: c-e-g
(i.e. the triad of C-major)
Now, where does the "transformation" take place?
Herefore, the 3rd movement is crucial. In bar 19 a transformed version of the main motiv reappears. But here, it has changed it's gesture; it's "fighting". First the 3 short notes now are quarters, and then, the pitch is kept: g-g-g-g.
In addition you have an ascending bass line in the first 4 bars where the motiv reappears: c-d-eb. "Fighting upwards". There are lots of tonal aspects happening, but the crucial point is that this "fight" after a while reaches C-major. 
It maintains C-major, but later (in this movement) falls back to c-minor. The last bars of this movement directly confront this conflict; over a very interesting organ point (G-C-G) the _minor quality_ "eb" transforms into "e" (which is the _major quality_) and the organ point finally transforms into a "real" dominant chord G7. (Intersting additional detail: the leading note B is reached via the 9th A - also the note a in contrast to the former minor 6th Ab, which not only was the key of the second movement, but also a huge organ point before G-C-G was reached.
And then, after this G7 the 4th movement irrupts with all the accumulated power.

So, that's one small aspect.


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## gregh (Dec 7, 2018)

cola2410 said:


> I would seriously question human qualities and its profound differences from machines in, say, a decade from now. One of the Berkley professors once said - the day machines start mimicking our behaviour and emotional expression trying to learn from us would be the first day of the world's end as we know it. Craft covered, next is emotion with empathy then humans finished.
> Actually we are no more than a combination of 100 billion neurons, passing signals to each other via as many as 1,000 trillion synaptic connections, equivalent by some estimates to a computer with a 1 trillion bit per second processor with brain’s memory capacity vary wildly from 1 to 1,000 terabytes and all this is encapsulated in a self-sustained biological machine to produce power for it.
> 
> And according to
> ...


Our brains are not really like computers at all - brains are dynamic systems wherever we look, growing, shrinking, modulating membrane properties and so on. We still don't even know what most of the cells in brains (glia, not neurons) are doing to any great degree. We are still discovering different types of neurons. The equivalent to brain in computing would be a computer that was constantly changing it's structural properties, that constantly changed the meaning of information relations within itself in response to internal and external environmental pressures.
Don't think of brains as processing information via circuits with synapses as switches. That is not the case at all.
Technologists exaggerate their capabilities outrageously - we can't even make a frog's skin


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## Chr!s (Dec 7, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> I doubt it has more sense then listening only to the main seconds of the symphony.
> However, if you want one aspect, here you are:
> The 5th is usually seen as the prime example for an inner "per aspera ad astra" program.
> On the most basic level, you can see this on the tonalities of the 4 movements:
> ...



Well, thanks for doing that.

I see what you're saying in this breakdown as it pertaining to a per aspera ad astra, but I still see it as your own interpretation, and one that never came to mind in all the times I've listened to it. 

Now, maybe a lot of other people agree with that interpretation, but it is still the result of musical devices being used that have been used overtime to the point that a lot of people have attributed this meaning to it. I'm sure if someone wanted to, they could analyze that piece just as you did and derive a completely different meaning from those same things. I'm sure that if you wanted to, in that girl's music, you could do the same.

It may be more sophisticated, but I don't see this as being fundamentally different or inherently better than something like chromatic mediants. Their use in the romantic era, and now in film was so effective, and so heavily used that it became cliche. Like the phrygian dominant as well. 

Perhaps there really is something inherent in these musical devices and structure that lead composers to using them to convey the specific mood or idea that they wanted in the first place, but I still disagree that this inherently elevates them to the status of "art". Especially since some of these are extremely simple.

Most rock or metal bands just start a song by working around a cool-sounding riff they came up with. I don't think these tunes "say anything" beyond trying to be awesome. I don't think most bands intended much more than that. I wouldn't think it lessens their artistic value or worth by default.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 7, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> Now, maybe a lot of other people agree with that interpretation, but it is still the result of musical devices being used that have been used overtime to the point that a lot of people have attributed this meaning to it. I'm sure if someone wanted to, they could analyze that piece just as you did and derive a completely different meaning from those same things.



Chris, the things that i described, are models that are very clearly stated in different books, ranging from late renaissance over baroque until recent times. it's a vocabulary that was very clearly known by those composers. These are not subjective things, these aspects were a basic part of the musical training, also of the musical education of Beethoven. 

It's really tough if you make statements that are clearly falsified by evidence.
E.g. you will find 50 historical sources that all describe the basic semantic meaning of the change from minor to major in the European music of the last centuries.
It's simply not subjective, not for composers who were brought up in that epoch, teached by musicians of that epoch and were active parts of that culture.

If a hard rock band that's not part of that tradition uses this change in another sense (i would doubt they do, at least if they have some sense for musicality) it's still irrelevant, because Beethoven was teached this meanings and used these meanings. And that's why the audience that was part of this culture understood his language.
I can't urge you not to ignore the evidence, but there is.
(and i'm out now, you can read books or ignore them, but - as stated - not knowing some facts doesn't make them inexistent)


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## Living Fossil (Dec 7, 2018)

Chr!s said:


> It may be more sophisticated, but I don't see this as being fundamentally different or inherently better than something like chromatic mediants. Their use in the romantic era, and now in film was so effective, and so heavily used that it became cliche.


btw the chromatic mediants also have their semantic meanings, already described in the baroque. And also: used in these meaning between Bach (not often though), over Schubert (often) to Wagner etc.
They had an evolving meaning though as they became more common.
There is literature describing these elements.

And: yes, those semantic chiffres are very simple on their own. Like words.
Beethoven always spoke of music as a language (Klangsprache).

But you misunderstood very much the fact that i never said that the existence of this vocabulary on its own defines art.
It's the consequence in the use and the inner network formed by them (and other elements) that gives more or less substantial meaning.

Maybe it's easier for you to see them as building blocks that form a computer algorithm e.g. for a plug in.
There are banal algorithms, there are complicated algorithms that are crap, there are algorithms that seem simple but are very clever and there are extremely complex algorithms that define quantum leaps in computer software.

p.s. And yes - as you mentioned: Over time some methods become clichés.
Specially when the inner network doesn't make the used elements appear compelling. That's why from time to time it is necessary to regenerate the used vocabulary by modification and addition of new elements.
Now, since we learn by imitiation, usually young composers need time to get these parameters right - used vocabulary and way to use them in a subjective manner. When somebody has found his language, he or she is ready for the audience.
That was my initital critique.


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