# Need a Life Change. Getting into the Audio Post Industry - Advice, and Perspective Please!



## FirmamentFX (Mar 5, 2007)

*I have posted this on an audio post board as well, but I would also like to put it here for a different perspective.*

Here's the situation. I am in a deep rut, getting more frustrated by the hour at the direction my life is taking.

I am a 25 year old, based in the UK (where my current work it) and France (where I "live" - as much as you live anywhere when you've been on tour for 3 years). my current job, which I am pretty successful in, is as a Musical Director / Conductor for West End and UK Touring musical theatre productions. I left a respected UK university with a 2:1 degree in Electrical and Electronic Enginnering.

All this is great, but it's not really what I want to be doing. I am still young enough, and have no committments, that I can go through major upheaval without too much worry.

What I *want* to be doing is audio post - ideally as a music editor. That is "end game" - the dream. I am (and forgive the arrogance) a very highly trained musician at the top of the conducting game. I am also very good at sound mixing and production, and my MIDI mockups are improving daily (due in no small part to this board...)

What do I do now?

*Question 1:* Should I get an official, "recognised" qualification for Audio Post? My only experience of _industry_ is as a conductor, and I know that training counts for very little in that world, but audio post could well be different.

*Question 2:* Should I move? I am willing to move over the the USA - probably LA area, where things seem to be actually happening. I can't see many opportunities arising in the UK for feature film music editing (or more specifically, being around and making coffee for feature film music editors!)

*Question 3:* and this is possibly the most pointless and irritating question for "pros" - how do I get into it?! Do I literally bang on every door offering to do anything? (which I am willing to do). What are the chances of finding somewhere willing to take on someone like me? - of course this is very much linked in with *Q1* - would getting a qualification actually help or not?

*Question 4:* Should spend a couple of months putting together a demo reel of my talents? I have no actual production experience; would a demo reel serve any purpose?

Thanks guys,

Martin


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 5, 2007)

Frankly, I doubt that there are no opportunity in the UK for audio post jobs.

Sure, there are lots of jobs in LA but there's also lots of competition.

One way to get in (and I'm sorry for saying this) is being around and making coffee for feature film music editors; I mean being an assistant :wink: 

Sorry if I'm not more helpful but you may be looking far for something that's right in your neiborhood...


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## rJames (Mar 5, 2007)

I have no specialized knowledge to answer this but I can answer it as a person who has created a couple of careers for himself.

You CAN do anything you want to. 

Any artistic profession is ruled by who you know, its about connections. Making them from scratch or having them, doesn't matter.

Moving into an artistic career is like getting into the plumbers union. You have to work as a plumber for 2 years before you can get into the union. One more thing...you have to be in the union to get any work.

If you can get one job and do it to your client's satisfaction then you might be able to get a second job.

Spend every moment learning from every source you can find AND spend every moment connecting to the people who will become your employers.

School or private lessons, yes. Every book (that has been recommended by professionals in that business) that you can get your hands on, yes. Just start doing it. For yourself, for local studios, for anyone that will have you (always leaning towards the higher profile jobs).

Many editors get their start by getting a full time job doing anything in a studio (the better the reputation of the studio, the better start you get.)

Get a studio. do it!

Ear training. Not notes but reverb and phasing and nuance.

Learn how to make a big open space that is filled to the brim with just the perfect collection of frequencies.


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## midphase (Mar 5, 2007)

> What I *want* to be doing is audio post - ideally as a music editor. That is "end game" - the dream.



Martin,

Here is some prespective from someone who lives and works in LA. First of all, I'm not sure exactly how broad your definition of audio post is. You say ideally you want to be a music editor...but are you open to being a sound fx guy? Could you be happy editing dialogue, or adding footsteps to movies?

I have to be honest in my assesment that music editing is possibly on its way out as a profession. Let me explain...firstly more and more video editors are actually acting as music editors. They want to cut to music right away and hence I've seen a lot of the video guys take on that role in post houses...and some of them are even good at it!
Secondly, music budgets for movies and TV shows seem to be constantly dropping, which means that many composers who might have at some point have hired music editors, are now doing it themselves. Now, I'm not saying that 10 years from now there will not be anymore music editors working in the industry...but the positions available might be considerably less and hence the guys who have already an established resume might be hogging all of the gigs by then.

Definitely something to think about.

If you want to come out and intern, make sure you have enough financial independence for a couple of years...in LA that might mean $100k. You will undoubtedly run into some dead end internships but hopefully sooner or later within that first 2 years you'll get hired somewhere (although I don't know what your VISA situation might be...the US is now one of the most stringent countries for foreigners to work in).

I don't know what type of reel you might assemble to showcase your music editing skills, as a sound designer you could assemble some mixes where you replaced the sound effects. 

Lastly, you might consider some smaller markets but it's a tough call...you're opting for less competition but also less opportunities.


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 5, 2007)

Another option is to start your own audio company, possibly in London. Why go broke working for somebody else, when you can go broke trying to start your own business? I think the main advantage is that you are (somewhat) in control with your own business. When working as an intern, hoping to move up, the other guy calls all the shots.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 6, 2007)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> Another option is to start your own audio company, possibly in London. Why go broke working for somebody else, when you can go broke trying to start your own business?



Jon,

I always enjoy your posts ... :D 

Martin,
I am most unqualified to make a specific comment here, so the only thing I can offer is an opinion: Find the place where people want you because of your unique combination of skills, and not because 'anybody' is needed. Looking over the shoulders of some big guys could get you some practical knowledge that is hard to get on other ways, but then it may be time to find your own position.

BTW I wished I would get the chance to conduct in my next life ... 

Wish you the best
Hannes


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## misterbee (Mar 6, 2007)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> Another option is to start your own audio company, possibly in London. Why go broke working for somebody else, when you can go broke trying to start your own business? I think the main advantage is that you are (somewhat) in control with your own business. When working as an intern, hoping to move up, the other guy calls all the shots.



Just to offer an alternative perspective here... when you work on your own, you DON'T get the same kind of benefits of other peoples experience. When you're starting out, that can be a bad thing. I work on my own, learning as I go, and there are several reasons why. But I'd way prefer to be someone elses bitch who really knows what they're doing and can offer insight into things I've never experienced before.


R.


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## FirmamentFX (Mar 6, 2007)

Thank you VERY much for all your replies guys. I am going to look at them all in detail and compose a proper post instead of ruching one off here.

Martin


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## mathis (Mar 6, 2007)

One thing to keep in mind that the the audio post market is at least as flooded as the musicians market. I'm earning my money for quite some years doing sound design and I was quite succesful with it (look on my website). But my musicians heart finally urged me to make the change to music. And it starts working uot, even if I still need audio post for paying my rent.

You won't find enough work as a sole music editor, at least here in Europe. That yuo should keep in mind.
You might want to think in different directions, but stay in music. The field is wide. I bet, with your development, you will be more happy over the long run with music than with audio post. Although you need to be musical to be good in this job you won't be able to live your musicality.

Not much time right now. Ask specific things if you want, I will answer.


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## mathis (Mar 6, 2007)

To add something more, speaking it out very clearly: You're overqualified for that job.
Do it only if you don't expect any artistic fulfillment. I did so since I love film sound; combining dialog, fx and music to a narrative whole. But I had to realize that it isn't as rewarding as I expected. It's simply a LOT of boring work. On the average film which keeps you busy for 4-8 weeks you have days on which you can actually use your creativity.

Of course, music editing is certainly fun. But as someone before notes, it's a dying profession. In Europe it never existed (maybe a little in London). The picture editors do the rough cut, the sound editors the fine cut.

Having said all that, I know at least one musician who had tremendous fun touring with bands but then decided he wants to have a family. And got a steady job as a sound editor. He's creating shit but that doesn't bother him, he is completely happy with his three kids.
It's a complex decision.


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## FirmamentFX (Mar 6, 2007)

OK, once again thank you to everyone who has spent time composing replies to my original post.



> Sorry if I'm not more helpful but you may be looking far for something that's right in your neiborhood...



Patrick - not at all. You are being very helpful. Sometimes it is difficult to see the wood for the trees, and even though I spend a lot of time in London, I was unaware of the vibrant post industry!

If I don't have to move, then that is great. I have no "starry eyed vision" of being in LA, I will simply go where the best opportunities are for me to get work.



> To add something more, speaking it out very clearly: You're overqualified for that job.



Mathis - I hear you... The problem I have (personally) is that I have turned into something of a "machine", regurgitating the same old stuff, in exactly the same way, at exactly the same tempo night after night after night. Therein lies the rub with theatre work...

An example - I use to conduct Blood Brothers. I was MD of the UK tour for almost a year. That finished back in July 2005. I can STILL play every cue, conduct every instrument and actor in etc, exactly as I usedòº   S¾@º   S¾Aº   S¾Bº   S¾Cº   S¾Dº   S¾Eº   S¾Fº   S¾Gº   S¾Hº   S¾Iº   S¾Jº   S¾Kº   S¾Lº   S¾Mº   S¾Nº   S¾Oº   S¾Pº   S¾Qº   S¾Rº   S¾Sº   S¾Tº   S¾Uº   S¾Vº   S¾Wº‘   S¾Xº‘   S¾Yº‘   S¾Zº‘   S¾[º’   S¾\º’   S¾]º’   S¾^º’   S¾_º’   S¾`º’   S¾aº’   S¾bº’   S¾cº’   S¾dº’   S¾eº’   S¾fº’   S¾gº’   S¾hº’   S¾iº’   S¾jº’   S¾kº’   S¾lº’   S¾mº’   S¾nº’   S¾oº’   S¾pº’   S¾qº’   S¾rº’   S¾sº’   S¾tº’   S¾uº’   S¾vº’   S¾wº’   S¾xº’   S¾yº’   S¾zº’   S¾{º’   S¾|º’   S¾}º’   S¾~º’   S¾º’   S¾€º’   S¾º’   S¾‚º’   S¾ƒº’   S¾„º’   S¾…º’   S¾†º’   S¾‡º’   S¾ˆº’   S¾‰º’   S¾Šº’   S¾‹º’   S¾Œº’   S¾º’   S¾Žº’   S¾º’   S¾º’   S¾‘º’   S¾’º’   S¾“º’   S¾”º’   S¾•º’   S¾–º’   S¾—º’   S¾˜º’   S¾™º’   S¾šº’   S¾›º’   S¾œº’   S¾º’   S¾žº’   S¾Ÿº’   S¾ º’   S¾¡º’   S¾¢º’   S¾£º’   S¾¤º’   S¾¥º’   S¾¦º’   S¾§º’   S¾¨º’   S¾©º’   S¾ªº’   S¾«º’   S¾¬º’   S¾­º’   S¾®º’   S¾¯              òº’   S¾±º’   S¾²º’   S¾³º’   S¾´º’   S¾µº’   S¾¶º’   S¾·º’   S¾¸º’   S¾¹º’   S¾ºº’   S¾»º’   S¾¼º’   S¾½º’   S¾¾º’   S¾¿º’   S¾Àº’   S¾Áº’   S¾Âº’   S¾Ãº’   S¾Äº’   S¾Åº’   S¾Æº’   S¾Çº’   S¾Èº’   S¾Éº’   S¾Êº’   S¾Ëº’   S¾Ìº’   S¾Íº’   S¾Îº’   S¾Ïº’   S¾Ðº’   S¾Ñº’   S¾Òº’   S¾Óº’   S¾Ôº’   S¾Õº’   S¾Öº’   S¾×º’   S¾Øº’   S¾Ùº’   S¾Úº’   S¾Ûº’   S¾Üº’   S¾Ýº’   S¾Þº’   S¾ßº’   S¾àº’   S¾áº’   S¾âº’   S¾ãº’   S¾äº’   S¾åº’   S¾æº’   S¾çº’   Síº’   Síº“   S¾èº“   S¾éº“   S¾êº“   S¾ëº“   S¾ìº“   S¾íº“   S¾îº“   S¾ïº“   S¾ðº“   S¾ñº“   S¾òº“   S¾óº“   S¾ôº“   S¾õº“   S¾öº“   S¾÷º“   S¾øº“   S¾ùº“   S¾úº“   S¾ûº“   S¾üº“   S¾ýº“   S¾þº“   S¾ÿº“   S¿ º“   S¿º“   S¿º“   S¿º“   S¿º“   S¿º“   S¿º“   S¿º”   S¿º”   S¿	º”   S¿
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## Mike Greene (Mar 6, 2007)

This might be a case of the grass looking greener. Music or SFX editing are pretty tedious gigs where you'll often find yourself working for egotistical morons. If you make it to the higher levels, it could be a great gig, but otherwise, personally I'd much rather conduct and be a music director.

Hannes makes a good point. I think if I were you, I'd aim high and focus on the skills you have rather than go for a generic position. With that said:

Q1: I don't know. I've seen people in hiring positions go both ways on this. But you MUST know ProTools in audio post in Los Angeles. It's the standard here.

Q2: My opinion is yes, you should move to L.A. if you really want to do this. But Kays makes some really valid points, especially that these gigs may be dying out. I'll add that your odds of success are very long and internships generally don't pay, even if you can get them! However, the upside is even if you fail, L.A. can be a nice place to spend a year or two if you have the money.

Q3: Even a small-time place like mine (only one full time employee besides myself and I don't have any ads for my composing or studio services) gets at least a call a week from hopeful interns willing to work for free, as well as other calls from guys expecting pay. I don't know what the best way to get a gig would be, but you might try making some calls and making friends while still in Europe. I'd imagine if you had a friend who was an editor, he's your best contact to get a similar job at the same studio.

Q4: My guess is no, but this really isn't my field so it's just a guess.


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## rJames (Mar 6, 2007)

The kind of studio I'm talking about is ProTools in a box. Learn how to use that. Tell people (show people) that you can use it.

It is affordable. I'm not talking about mortaging your house or selling your car.

Impress people with your work and your ears.

Anything IS possible if you put your mind to it. To think differently is to sabotage yourself. There are already too many roadblocks to success.

The first step is to make realistic appraisals of your own talents.

It is your job to find the most direct route to success.


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## FirmamentFX (Mar 6, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> But you MUST know ProTools in audio post in Los Angeles. It's the standard here.



So it could be a case of getting one of the smaller Pro Tools systems and learning it inside out.

My next purchase lined up is the Mackie COntrol Universal - which is also compatible with Pro Tools (I'm a Nuendo user) - I guess I could still do my mockups in Nuendo, and then print the premix stems and import them into PT to learn the system...

Regarding moving - what I may do is book my "holiday" this year in LA and spend a couple of weeks getting to know the area and some people. This would at least give me an idea of what is going on without committing to anything immediately.

Thanks for the motivation rJames - I think possibly I am just wary about heading in a totally new direction - even though I want to do it!

Cheers,

Martin


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## rJames (Mar 6, 2007)

I would be wary if I were in your shoes. I have no idea of your circumstances but given what I know, here is how I'd approach it.

Learn Pro Tools and all the audio gear that I could. You HAVE to know the state-of-the-art in both hardware and software (even if you don't own it all).

Contact everyone and anyone who might be able to use your conducting skills in a studio. Make your engineering contacts from the inside. 

Be the conductor and stick around and give incisive comments on the mix (when you can appropriately do so).

Leverage.


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## mathis (Mar 6, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> > Find the place where people want you because of your unique combination of skills, and not because 'anybody' is needed.
> 
> 
> 
> Hannes - I know what you mean, but the opportunities for a keyboard programming, sampling composer who wants to conduct and mix his own music are likely to be limited :mrgreen:



Not at all. That's exactly the combination that will make you succesful as a music producer/composer.


OK, now with your last post I have a much better picture of what your situation is since I did sound engineering for musicals myself. IT IS HORRIBLE to wake up at night totally sweated having the very same tunes in your ear over and over again. That is tormenting and no money in the world can compensate for this (not saying Musical is well paid, it is ridiculously low paid). Two years ago I really needed a job and was thinking of doing Musical again and ABBA in Utrecht was looking for a new engineer. So I followed their invitation to a show and all the horrible feelings from the past came back. In fact it was so painful that I had ear problems for the next three months. I ran out and never looked back.
No wonder you're in a rut. Your problem is the Musical, not music. Get rid of it.


London is THE film post production city in Europe. I don't see any reason to move to LA, especially if you have to face Visa problems. With film post you can earn very well in London and in fact I was thinking several times to move there. Learn ProTools and you will have plenty of jobs as a music editor, I have no doubts.
But follow your own path as a music composer/producer, at least in parallel. You will do well with your skills.


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## Synesthesia (Mar 6, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> Mike Greene @ Tue Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > But you MUST know ProTools in audio post in Los Angeles. It's the standard here.
> ...



Martin, 

some very good advice here. I'd simply second the opinion that you can certainly work a good effort into post here in London, especially as so many US movies do their post here.

Also, re your above comments on stemming into tools from Nuendo: write tracks in protools from the start. Its the only way to learn. Stem sessions are not going to teach you the nuts and bolt and indeed quirks of protools!

Good luck!

Best

Paul


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## synthetic (Mar 6, 2007)

I bought a semi-large Pro Tools system and did films for five years. I started out doing zero-budget stuff, then embarrassingly-low-budget stuff. I was working my way up to low-budget stuff and thinking about joining the union in LA (for $3000) when I burned out. I got to the point where if I had to cut in one more car door slam or woosh I was going to die. 

Breaking in seems a lot like breaking into music. Do a bunch of stuff for little money and hope that one of your clients starts getting more and steady work. Or that you get enough credits to join the union and then find a contact to get hired at an established place. Before getting evicted for non-payment of rent. 

Sorry for the dark post. I guess I don't miss it very much.


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## FirmamentFX (Mar 6, 2007)

Synesthesia @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> Martin,
> 
> some very good advice here. I'd simply second the opinion that you can certainly work a good effort into post here in London, especially as so many US movies do their post here.
> 
> ...



Thanks Paul.

Well I'm going to have to persuade my Mum not to sell the flat in Islington and let me live there for a low rent! :D (it was our family home until they moved to France and I went on tour!)

Regarding writing in Pro Tools - it is going to be considerably hard to do my MIDI mockups with the track limitation... How much does the cheapest "full" Pro Tools system cost? (you could argue, in for a penny, in for a pound...)

Synthetic - Dont's worry! It's a realistic view. I have to try though, otherwise I will kick myself in years to come...  

Martin


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## gamalataki (Mar 6, 2007)

A little perspective from a music editor.

*I have to be honest in my assesment that music editing is possibly on its way out as a profession.*

Kays, this is based on your knowledge and experience and I can appreciate that. With so many productions using buy out and library muisc, bypassing a composer and hiring an editor to track the production, one might come to the conclusion that composing is possibly on it's way out as a profession. I'm not willing to make that arguement and don't believe it, but it's happening more and more.

*more video editors are actually acting as music editors....and some of them are even good at it!*

This is true, but......I've worked with about 50 picture editors and my experience has been that a handfull are good at it and one is phenomenal. For every picture editor that is a good music editor, I can site several picture editors that hire their own music editor, which is in addition to the composers music editor. There usually isn't enough time for a picture editor to finesse the music with the picture editing and they're using stereo mixes and never have time to go into multitrack mixes and rework cues. Much of the hardcore music editing is done on the dub stage long after the picture editor has collected his last paycheck and packed up his Avid.

*music budgets for movies and TV shows seem to be constantly dropping, which means that many composers who might have at some point have hired music editors, are now doing it themselves*

This is true too, but mostly on the lower budget side of things. Schedules are also shrinking and many composers and directors find they need two or three editors to meet the dealine. Composers can't be in two places at once and are often still in their studio writiing or rewritting cues while the editor is on the dub stage cutting away. I don't know any composer that leaves a spotting session wanting to do anything but compose. Even if he has to take it out of his own pocket, most composers will want to hire a music editor to break down the timings, build the click tracks, track cues where possible, manage all the source cues and keep track of and update the directors change notes.
Music editing gigs are alive and well as is evidenced on every dub stage around the world, day in and day out.

Martin,

"So you want to be a music editor, eh?" This was the snide, snarky reponse I got when I called the first music editing house in Hollywood when I moved to LA 12 years ago, to become a music editor, and I had an "in". Like every job in this biz, you're going to find people who will want to discourage you. Some for their own best interests.
Tell me I can't do something and it'll make me stronger, then I'll prove you wrong. If you can't relate to this phrase, don't come to LA.

"So you want to be a music editor, eh?" And you think your frustrated now Seriously, there are about twenty different jobs associated with that title as it applies to work in film and television. You could be called to do one or all at any given moment.

You have the same dream I had 12 years ago. Without going into broad detail, I'll cut to the chase (which ironically is part of the job too) and tell you what you'll need to do if you decide you really want to persue this career. Having a solid music background, as you do, you need to study filmmaking, drama and post production. I didn't know this when I first started and thought my music background, education and years of watching productions would be all I needed to figure out what worked. Like learning how to play guitar by copying Jimmy Page licks, you'll only get so far. I got my hands on work prints and started building cues for the scenes that were spotted for music, for practice. It didn't take me long before I figured out I didn't have the faintest clue on how to set up an audience and provide them with a payoff at the approprate moment or any of the techniques that drama was built on. Like so many talented music composers, who don't know much about filmmaking, I didn't know how to do anything but copy existing work. I had a good music background, I just didn't know anything about drama and filmmaking and that's the biz, more than music. The best film music editors are the ones with both music and film degrees.

Suffice to say, I ended up going back to school.

Some suggestions:

Read the book "On The Track" it will give you a broad synopsis of what's involved in music for films. There are other books specifically tailored to music editing.

Familiarize yourself with every good film ever made and listen to the soundtracks of them separately. Know what's out there already, the history, this is the language needed to go forward.

Learn how to cut music fast and how to make it work, no matter what. Protools, a few hundred soundtracks and some workprints will be all you need to practice that mechanical aspect of it. Take a 3 minute cue and cut it to 1:30. 1:00, 30 seconds without losing the form. Learn how to read waveforms, you'll have to make editing decisions in a few seconds.

There are some excellent film music editors in the UK, but I'm not sure there is a guild. I would check in London first and try to find a mentor to study with. If you can be a fly on the wall and experience what takes place from beginning to end, of a films post production, you'll begin to understand what it is a music editor does. It is a lot of work, sometimes tedious and brutal and sometimes extremely rewarding. You may have a change of heart once you see how much work is involved. If I can get a chance, maybe I can check the editors guild directory for UK editors, since some have dual citizenship.

In the USA there is a guild, but you need something like 180 days of work related to the field, ie non union productions, in a 3 year period. Not sure of the exact time anymore, but there is a two year and three year qualification span that you can use.

When you have that proved, with cancelled checks etc., you have to take that proof to the CSATF (Contract Services Administration Trust Fund)
http://www.csatf.org/

Once they accept you, you'll be put on the music editors roster, where you'll be eligible for work and will have to join the editors guild after 30 days of union work. The fee to join used to be $2100, but it may be more now. You can make payments.

Motion Picture Editors Guild
http://www.editorsguild.com/v2/index.aspx

FInding ANY work will be difficult at first and you're more than likely going to be forced to work for free on indies to gain some experience. There are plenty of music libraries that hire editors and I got my start cutting source cues for a music library that did a lot of MOW's. I first worked for someone in the guild, who got there by favors and couldn't cut a fart, much less music. He got a tv series and not knowing anything, but the business, had to hire someone who could cut fast. Because I had studied and practiced, I was able to do the gig and that's how I or anyone learns the biz, by lots of work experience, day in and day out. There's plenty of non union work. Preparing for opportunity is the only way to take advantage of it when it comes.

A music editor has many masters. Producers, directors, music supervisiors and most importantly composers. There will always be a lot of people depending on you to be fast and accurate, possibly looking over your shoulder while checking their watch and mistakes aren't something there's time for. Feeling pressure and not sleeping, is just part of the job. You may have to recut all the music in a film, long after the composer has left. Learn how to punt

The best way to get a gig is to study with a known editor who has connections in the biz. Berklee has a program for music editing and an instructor who is well known in Hollywood, who has the ability to possibly get you a placement with a music editing house. UCLA has some good courses as do many institutions in LA. If you get into a house situation, you'll have to find out where all the Starbucks are - kidding - you'll probably start off digitizing picture, doing transfers, SR conversions, drive maintainence, spotting notes, session transfers - general grunt work, until they have faith that you know drama and can build dramatic cues. A union work week consists of 48 hrs and scale is about $1600. Going it alone, freelance, can often yield triple scale, but not necessarily steady work.

There's a long line waiting for any job in pictures, but you're young enough and smart enough to have the time and resources to find out if it's for you. So if the passion is there, go for it. Muisc is a hub with many spokes and there's lot of different ways to make it work for you. You have to find your own way, through experience, like everything else in life.

No one can answer your questions but you. There's an old saying in the film music business, "anyone can make a demo." Demos can't demonstrate that you can do the job. Getting someone intersted in you enough to ask you for a demo - priceless. The best resume is the one spoken by your references to your potential employer. Personality and attitude count for a lot.

That's my rambling, stream of consciousness answer, based solely on my experiences as a music editor.

_Scott


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## midphase (Mar 6, 2007)

> Kays, this is based on your knowledge and experience and I can appreciate that. With so many productions using buy out and library muisc, bypassing a composer and hiring an editor to track the production, one might come to the conclusion that composing is possibly on it's way out as a profession. I'm not willing to make that arguement and don't believe it, but it's happening more and more.




I think we're both in trouble!


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## kid-surf (Mar 7, 2007)

I agree!

I say let's go get their jobs then! :twisted:


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## FirmamentFX (Mar 7, 2007)

gamalataki @ Wed Mar 07 said:


> Like every job in this biz, you're going to find people who will want to discourage you. Some for their own best interests.
> Tell me I can't do something and it'll make me stronger, then I'll prove you wrong. If you can't relate to this phrase, don't come to LA.



Well that's true of the theatre industry as well... 4 years ago, if someone told me I couldn;t do something, I'd say "oh, ok" and leave it at that. Now though....

As with anything "industry" related, when you've lived it, you come to appreciate how the system works.

Regarding "learning" how music fits with picture, and how it all works as a cohesive whole - is that something that can really be taught in an academic setting? Or is it something that is "felt" more with experience, and by watching experienced people doing their jobs?



> Suffice to say, I ended up going back to school.



Yes, as I have mentioned, it is something I have considered. However, whether I go very much depends on whether I will gain anything practical, or whether it would be better to work as a grunt and watch people working - I have already been through one degree, and am still paying back the loans etc... Now, I am willing to take the plunge again, but I have to be ABSOLUTELY sure it will be worthwhile.



> Read the book "On The Track" it will give you a broad synopsis of what's involved in music for films. There are other books specifically tailored to music editing.



Ordered... 



> Take a 3 minute cue and cut it to 1:30. 1:00, 30 seconds without losing the form. Learn how to read waveforms, you'll have to make editing decisions in a few seconds.



What a great idea - and a good way to learn some of the audio editing features of PT



> There are some excellent film music editors in the UK, but I'm not sure there is a guild. I would check in London first and try to find a mentor to study with. If you can be a fly on the wall and experience what takes place from beginning to end, of a films post production, you'll begin to understand what it is a music editor does. It is a lot of work, sometimes tedious and brutal and sometimes extremely rewarding. You may have a change of heart once you see how much work is involved. If I can get a chance, maybe I can check the editors guild directory for UK editors, since some have dual citizenship.



Perhaps the closest is BECTU. I will check it out and see what comes up.

Having done a quick search, there are plenty of online directories of Post houses in the UK, so I'll start doing the rounds!

And thank you for all the information from an "insiders" point of view. It is useful to get that perspective, because I can imagine "the way it is" all I want, but until I am tolld (or find out for myself), I don't know what being part of the world is like.

Thanks!!

Martin


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## mathis (Mar 7, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Wed Mar 07 said:


> Regarding "learning" how music fits with picture, and how it all works as a cohesive whole - is that something that can really be taught in an academic setting? Or is it something that is "felt" more with experience, and by watching experienced people doing their jobs?



Film has a grammar and everybody working on a film should be familiar it. You can learn that in school, with books or by nagging picture editors.
When I started out doing sound editing I learned pretty quickly that picture editors are a real source of knowledge and also inspiration. The good ones, of course, which are 50+. The young Avid mouse clickers usually can't teach you something.
I had the luck to start this trade in an environment full of these people. There is a reason why until 10 years ago you didn't have a chance getting any sound editing job without having spent years as an editor assistant. But then came Protools and the industry really needed quickly people understanding the computer. That changed this market; not necessarily to the better.


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## gamalataki (Mar 7, 2007)

> Regarding "learning" how music fits with picture, and how it all works as a cohesive whole - is that something that can really be taught in an academic setting? Or is it something that is "felt" more with experience, and by watching experienced people doing their jobs?



I'm a big fan of learning by osmosis and on more than one occasion I've asked a composer I respect to let me watch him write a cue and I love learning this way. It's organic and it's real and gives you a chance to ask, "why'd you do it that way?"

But, there are techniques used in drama, whether it's script writing, cinematography, acting, directing or composing, that have been used and proved effective for certain situations. Whether or not you can discover these over time, on your own, by trial and error and experience, I think it's always better to get a good base of understanding of what went before so you don't spend too much time learning this piecemeal along the way. You will invariably have gaps in you your knowledge and may find yourself in a situation where you don't have time for trial and error to get it right, no matter how intuitive you are.

As it relates to post production, you can go in and intern and watch and learn or you can study the process from people who have been doing it and teaching it for 20 years and then go in and watch and learn. Which method do you think will advance your understanding/career faster? The first thing you should know about the technical aspects of post production, is what happens in pre production and the production process to get to the post part of it.

As it applies to the score: One example. Knowing when to pause the music and let the drama play itself is critical. In a music editing class, where all the students were given the same scene to track music to, 100% of them stung a realization, the big moment of the scene. When the instructor showed the scene with how it was eventually scored by a master composer, the music paused at that moment to let the drama play itself and it was obvious to everyone that it was much more effective that way. The music's job was to get the audience there, not tell them what happened.
It's natural for novices to enthusiastically overuse music and then sell it to themselves as working; it's hard to be objective at first with your music, but you have to develop that.

There are dozens of techniques like the above, on how to manipulate an audience, that aren't usually apparent by studying from an audience perspective. You don't have to "go back to school' full time, but a class here and a class there, with the proper instructor, can do wonders. I still take UCLA extension classes all the time.

IN FACT: For those in LA, Bruce Broughton is giving a 5 hour seminar @UCLA on March 24th, starting at noon, on analyzing aesthetic issues in composing to picture.
$95. He's the shiz as far as I'm concerned. Wow, is it March already? I've got to enroll.
Anyone want to car pool?

And that's all I know

You seem motivated to take the initiative to go out and do things for yourself, which will serve you well.

Good luck,

_Scott


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## Mike Greene (Mar 7, 2007)

This is great info, Scott!  

And thanks for the heads up on this:


gamalataki @ Wed Mar 07 said:


> IN FACT: For those in LA, Bruce Broughton is giving a 5 hour seminar @UCLA on March 24th, starting at noon, on analyzing aesthetic issues in composing to picture.


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## Hans Adamson (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks for sharing Scott. I learned a lot. Very inspirational!


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## Chrislight (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks for sharing this Scott. It's always nice to see someone take the time to share practical information like this that can end up being really beneficial to a lot of people. 

We are thinking of putting together a new forum here that would be focused on discussions and information about working in the music industry - since I'm sure that is the goal of many of our members. :D We've had a number of really good postings and personal stories in that regard, but unfortunately they end up getting buried. We would be culling through old postings and moving pertinent ones to the new forum if we decide to go with this.


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## gamalataki (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks guys, I'm glad I was able to give something back.


Here's the official info on the seminar. Don't Go {sideways smile face, to indicate amusement.}

Film Scoring Dialogs: A Seminar with Bruce Broughton

Reg# S8098B

UCLA: 121 - Dodd Hall

Saturday March 24th 12-5pm

You can use the quick enroll feature at: uclaextension.edu

Or Phone: 310.825.9971 or 818.784.7006

THE BLURB:

In this seminar, acclaimed composer Bruce Broughton explores and analyzes aesthetic issues in composing to picture, drawing on his experience scoring dozens of feature films and television shows. The composer details a range of processes, from presenting compositional sketches to supervising orchestral scoring sessions. Illustrating his lecture with film and audio clips from his own diverse work, Mr. Broughton presents such topics as developing dramatic themes, the psychological effect of harmony and texture, choosing evocative instrumentation, period emulation, and the art of spotting and collaborating with directors and producers. Advance enrollment required; no enrollment at the door.

* 8) 

I don't know if there are any more spaces available. I enrolled today and got this.

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## FirmamentFX (Mar 8, 2007)

Great new forum!! :-D

I think personally I'm more likely to learn by watching and asking questions than by "studying"... I've never been a fan of formal lessons, and all through my musical career so far, it has been a process of "work experience" rather than formal training.

I might look at "short courses" that don't necessarily lead to a qualification, but will be of some use in so far as my technical understanding goes.

Thanks again Scott!!

Martin


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