# Naomi Klein On What's Coming Next



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 13, 2017)

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/13/video-how-to-resist-trumps-shock-doctrine/


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## chimuelo (Jun 13, 2017)

Interesting how the very same rule by chaos she describes is what the owners of the Liberal Party have done for 8 years.
I can cite examples starting with the BP Oil spill to the War on Coal, Qatar-Al Gorezeerah deal.
Liberals got rich, their voters got extra food and "free" health care.
13 Trillion dollars for more poverty, and chaos around the globe.

Below one of the many billionaires that tell Liberals what to do if they wish to continue prospering.


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## chimuelo (Jun 13, 2017)

Don't take my word on it.
Here's Van Jones being polite as possible in regards to the wealthy white Liberal party that seeks to divide Americans through wealth, gender, religion, race, age and education.

It's all about them, their yachts, their jets, their multi million dollar Hollywood lunches, etc.


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## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 13, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Don't take my word on it.
> Here's Van Jones being polite as possible in regards to the wealthy white Liberal party that seeks to divide Americans through wealth, gender, religion, race, age and education.
> 
> It's all about them, their yachts, their jets, their multi million dollar Hollywood lunches, etc.




It sounds like you've got some deep prejudice against "liberals". Do you realize there are many different types of progressives and liberals and that many don't share the same values? By casting such a wide net and branding every progressive a "liberal", I think you are missing out on a necessary nuanced thinking about how fucked-up this country is and why. People are much more complicated than that, and, like I say, I am a progressive and have deep disagreements with many people who identify as liberal.


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## chimuelo (Jun 13, 2017)

Yes I do despise the wealthy Liberals.
We gave them a majority, they gave us nothing except 13 Trillion in debt, more Trade Deals killing American jobs, more trillions promised to go to other nations in Trade deals like TCCP, Paris Accords.
All of that with the stupid open border/cheap labor policy that's destroying wages...

I'm glad they're losing every single race.
There are a few folks I like but they are looking to run a 3rd Party.
I'm with them.

Dividing Americans against each other like the poverty pimp liberals is pathetic, and doesn't deserve the sweat off my balls.
On 2nd thought, they deserve the sweat. Be happy to fling it on the windows of their planes, yachts limos or beachfront mansions....


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## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 13, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Yes I do.
> We gave them a majority, they gave us nothing except 13 Trillion in debt, more Trade Deals killing American jobs, more trillions promised to go to other nations in Trade deals like TCCP, Paris Accords.
> All of that with the stupid open border/cheap labor policy that's destroying wages...
> 
> ...



If you admit to prejudice and you do nothing to correct it you are an irresponsible human being. I am progressive in my worldview and I don't have a beachfront house, a yacht, limo or airplane. Lots of progressives are middle-class working people. You should clean-up your shadow self, it seems to be doing a lot of psychological projection.


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## chimuelo (Jun 13, 2017)

I will once the wealthy fake liberals have been removed from power.
This has culminated over years of my Union dues being handed over to the very people lowering our wage.
You mess with my money, this is what you get.

Odd my dues will be given to Trump now.
We'll see if my wage/pension increases and he stops importing cheap labor under the guise of human rights.


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## chimuelo (Jun 13, 2017)

FWIW in Nevada we are progressive.
Corporations pay the public pensions, not the tax payers, as we have no taxes.
Those making the most pay for infrastructure...

Why don't wealthy liberals follow real progressives?
I guess their owners won't allow their money to be redistributed.

I look at big nanny states, then see Florida, Texas and Nevada as the way to go.
Not perfect, but economically more progressive than taxing workers instead of corporations.


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## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 13, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> I will once the wealthy fake liberals have been removed from power.
> This has culminated over years of my Union dues being handed over to the very people lowering our wage.
> You mess with my money, this is what you get.
> 
> ...



No, one should always be responsible when even our leaders are not. As I understand, you're referring to neoliberals, those very wealthy global capitalists who use the military-industrial complex to sustain the American empire. Yes, they are very dangerous, and very unfit to lead this world, no doubt. But so are the neoconservatives, those who are equally reckless, war-loving, profit-seeking with materialistic political values masquerading as political and social ideals, and blind to the general welfare of humanity. Why pick on the liberals when those of a different national temperament are equally corrupt?


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## chimuelo (Jun 13, 2017)

Bash Liberals mostly because they pretend to be anti Wall Street pro people.
This is the lie they use. Even Obama, who I never thought would veto Presidential pension caps or give big liberal speeches on Wall Street for 7500 dollars a minute, shows his true colors.

GOP at least tells you they are Wall Street and big business.
We know where they stand.

But having a billionaire as President has opened the door for others.
I can think of a few Billionaires I respect that would bring some honor and unity to the whore house Liberals and Conservatives created.
Most of these elites would be jailed for corruption and bribery in most countries.
Here, bribes are legal tender.

Looking for a 3rd Party. Then losers can form coalitions that don't have these huge pendulum swings where one party steals billions without any accountability.
We actually passed legislation today that gives the Congress permission to fire lying corrupt Liberal Unionized, bonus seeking scumbags at the VA.
Protection for whistle blowers...etc.
Permission to fire?
Talk about crony capitalism and corruption...

As long as this admin/Congress continues to get rid of these parasites and leeches I'll give them a pass. 
If the economy booms to 3% I'll give them a pass.

Look to Tulsi, Hayes, and Sanders, not these fake Liberal multi millionaires.
It makes no sense to give power to the wealthiest poverty pimps.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 13, 2017)

jsg said:


> https://theintercept.com/2017/06/13/video-how-to-resist-trumps-shock-doctrine/


Excellent post. I agree with almost every bit of it.


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## chimuelo (Jun 14, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Excellent post. I agree with almost every bit of it.



Of course you would.
The certainty of poverty keeps your wealthy elites in power.

The idea of the poor getting an education like a Senators child cannot be allowed.

Without 58,000,000 people in poverty the great liberal party couldn't win in massive ghetto states like Illinois, New York and seaside gangland zones on the west coast.

If you like keeping minority folks down, vote Liberal.
Americas newest plantations run by the richest whites, same old ways, just better liars.

Stop the apprentice programs Labor and the AFL-CIO are pushing for.
My goodness, sending the Liberals poor folks into wealthier suburbs would shrink their voter roles.
This must be stopped.


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## chimuelo (Jun 14, 2017)

Seems like another whacko agrees with the Liberal resistance.
Cops, Secret Service and politicians shot after several thousand calls to resist by Liberal media.
Wonder if more freedoms will be taken away.

Practicing a charity game for underprivileged kids.
Tell the kids their charity game will be cancelled, the resistance is more important.


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## cmillar (Jun 14, 2017)

I agree that some of the Democratic party members are totally beholden to corporate-big business, as are most Republicans. And, true, Obama gave in to the corporations in many ways and sold out in many ways.

But what's happening now (as far as the GOP basically wanting to inflict genocide on the population by killing health care, Medicaid, etc.... and also totally destroy the institution of government while setting up their own fascist-regime) is unethical, inhuman, immoral, unconscionable, and could be desribed as un-American as well (...if you believe that there should be a separation of religion, state, and business)...(...when you don't separate religion, state, and business, you have classic Fascism.)

But come on, 'chimuelo'. You'r really not making any sense.

You actually blame Liberals for the ills of the country? Where have you been? Too much sun in Nevada? No access to real news? You watch Fox instead of PBS? You don't like to read real news like the NY Times because Newt Gingrich started the lies about the 'liberal media'?

If you want to really blame the sad state of politics, then blame the proper people.... New Gingrich, Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Grover Norquist, etc. etc

Get real, man. Liberal thinking is not the problem.


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## chimuelo (Jun 14, 2017)

Reading your post is a retweet of lying Liberals telling us about genocide.
Last year it was Nazis rounding up Jews, mass deportations, etc.
Graves were desecrated, synagogues received hate filled threats and bomb scares.
Turned out to be a Liberal journalist and some other whack job.

Liberal lies, nothing more.
Desperate to keep from losing another 1,000 seats across the nation.
Look forward to watching them lose more in 2018.

The beauty of free speech.
Let them spew all they want.
The more violent and emotional they become, the better, as long as more cops and first responders aren't killed.
This will only hasten their removal when millions more who never vote step up in 2018.

I meet hundreds of people every month, and never once hear this kind of vitriol.


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## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 15, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Reading your post is a retweet of lying Liberals telling us about
> The more violent and emotional they become, the better, as long as more cops and first responders aren't killed.



You had better be careful, you're starting to cross a line Chimuelo. Scapegoating is really low-life, directing all of your resentment towards "liberals" is, well, disgusting. Not only are you incorrect about "all liberals", but your view that "all wealthy people" are evil is equally wrong. Wealth is not evil, but the love of money certainly is. There are some wealthy people who earned their money honestly, through hard work, and through creativity and risk-taking. If you hate them all you're as bad as the people you denounce. Perhaps you could take people as unique individuals rather than lump them all into a mindless group that ignores differences in values, behavior and decision-making.


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## chimuelo (Jun 15, 2017)

You misquote me.
All Liberals means anyone with Liberal values, which would be my family and me too.
The wealthy lying Liberals are who I speak of.

The 1%, owners of the ghettos, fighters of wealth inequality.
The ones prospering from poverty, race division.

The "Fundraisers."


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## NYC Composer (Jun 16, 2017)

jsg-trust me, you can't win an argument with an adversary who never, ever stops saying the same things regardless of the reasonableness of your position.

Jimmy is a lovely person, but politically he's bonkers and he's indefatigable. He will outlast you.


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## chimuelo (Jun 16, 2017)

Then join me in removing the GOP and DNC elite, their leaking rats embedded like tics in the taxpayers blood.
There's a new party coming to town.
And Reno, Nevada will be powering California and Nevada within years, then the entire country.
We are the progressives, not those fools selected for us by the Koch brothers and Soros..

I give every month to Tulsi and her causes.
That's the future.
Not these old wealthy lying bastards who watch us fight each other as they prosper..

Isn't it sad to have to resort to watching Fox News feeds just to hear Tulsi speak?
Why isn't NYTimes, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC or CBS giving her some time?
Why did Wasserman-Schultz run her out of the DNC?

And why do yuze guys still pay attention to the very Billionaire (foreign) owned Liberal media that lied to you and helped lose to Trump?

Pinon Pine Clean Coal Plant is working, even though they say it isn't, built that sucker in '94.
Tesla's 1,000,000 acre facility will save Americans trillions in energy costs.
That's how you fund a single payer health care system.
You don't lie your ass off, screw the middle class and expect no consequences for your CEO/lobbyist written failed ACA crap.

Think of your childrens future instead of the wealthy Liberals and their mansions with walls, jets, limos and yachts.

Our future is so bright we're going to new need Ray Bans....


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## cmillar (Jun 16, 2017)

When you keep saying, and still believe that "Liberals run the mainstream media", you just show your ingnorance of what's really going on.

You should get out more.....travel, visit other cities and countries....open your mind....don't just drink the Newt Gigngrich 'koolaid'.


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## chimuelo (Jun 17, 2017)

I travel all the time, which is why Ill know more than you ever will.
You're just a Liberal hatchling, fresh from the Incubators of Free School.

Thinking it was so great, you want more free stuff.....understandable.

I'm here to help the helpless, clue in the clueless, and guide Sheep from the pastures they were led to graze in.

Only in this effort can you learn to feed yourself and possibly move beyond free VSTs into the realm of high quality zeros and ones.....then onto hardware.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 17, 2017)

Love Naomi Klein. If it wasn't for her book "Shock Doctrine" I wouldn't be studying economics right now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2017)

She's right, of course, and she's hardly a voice in the wilderness. We've all been predicting a Reichstag event, but he may get lucky and a disaster will unfold on its own. Either way, it is very likely - and as she says, he's unfolding a constant stream of mini-disasters just by having the worst personality in the country. 

With the noose closing in around Txxxx, I'm becoming increasingly worried.


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## Quasar (Jun 19, 2017)

jsg said:


> https://theintercept.com/2017/06/13/video-how-to-resist-trumps-shock-doctrine/



Thanks for posting this. Klein (as usual) does an excellent job at framing the issues she discusses in a concise, easy-to-grasp way that can hopefully get more people thinking about the real issues currently facing the nation and the world, as opposed to the propagandist spin cranked out by corporatized news media...

... I'm spreading this video to the usual places where I post such things.


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## chimuelo (Jun 19, 2017)

Hope this gives the Puppy Dog some help in Georgia tomorrow.
Tired of watching my Liberal bros get their heart broke losing again.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2017)

Chim, what happened to make you this way? You've turned into a 1-beat samba.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2017)

Okay, let me put the fine point on it: progressives/liberals believe in social justice even when it doesn't benefit them personally, yet you keep saying that we're all greedy hypocrites out to screw everyone!


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## chimuelo (Jun 19, 2017)

No, just the Billionaires liberal millionaires pole dance for.

They're so busy fundraising and losing, I'm beginning to think you make more money losing.

When not losing Liberal multi millionaire "leaders" are like psycho surgeons.
They open up perfectly healthy patients in search of something to fix...
Social justice.
You mean like them returning our billions they give away to investors and friends?
I'm all for it....


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## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 19, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> No, just the Billionaires liberal millionaires pole dance for.
> 
> They're so busy fundraising and losing, I'm beginning to think you make more money losing.
> 
> ...



Do you hate poor liberals? What about conservative millionaires? What about people who are liberal in some areas but conservative in others? Are you unable to see shades of grey in your black-and-white world? I wonder how much of your angst is out of a genuine love of justice, and how much out of plain, ordinary envy? There is no nuance, no subtlety in your rants about liberals. It's almost as though you have no control over how you express yourself.


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## chimuelo (Jun 19, 2017)

I love rich folks, just not the ones who purchase politicians and pay them to divide us.
To me wealth earned is to be admired.
Some folks build hospital wings, some organize riots.
I like the builders more than the burners.
Liberals are owned by the burners, or anyone who pays them for that matter.

Did you mind when Canadian investors gave Liberals millions, then were given the job to design our health cares website where our most private information is shared?
They failed remember,...or so we were told.
But really they then ripped American taxpayers off for billions to "fix" the website.

Now why would I want to admire this type of crony capitalism, then be lied to about the bill written by investors/lobbyists, and not even read by these lying bastards?

Yeah, I want the ones who ripped us off removed.
If you don't I won't call you names, but I sure have no problem calling these lying pieces of shit what they really are. Lying losers...

If the GOP pulls the same kill the middle class crap I'll remove them.
Until then lying Liberals will suffice..


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## Soundhound (Jun 21, 2017)

What Larry said . Jimmy is a Milton Friedman/Reaganite in anarchist/new deal clothing, or something like that... He cites all manner of insane shit and will never post sources. He's hilarious and hilariously infuriating. Think of Jimmy as a tab of orange barrel you don't remember taking - you can ignore it or just let it shimmy out of register and go about your business.


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## chimuelo (Jun 21, 2017)

I was tripping on Orange Barrels from Fenton, MO. years ago.
Bought 100s from the factory wholesale. Never saw the need for middlemen...

I am as you say but I want higher taxes on the bigger earners.
You forget I watched an economy grow and boom under all of these D.C. Clown shows.
It's up to the state to make things happen by adjusting their tax policy.

In another month watch Illinois default from Liberal madness and corruption.
The only difference between Chicago and Venezuela is Chicago still has toilet paper.

Liberal mathematics combined with running out of other people's money to spend is a toxic concoction...

Hey what happened in the 6th District? Wealthy Liberals wasted 40,000,000+ and got whooped again..Think of the starving children they could have fed with all of that money.

I harken back to the Pips....
That's the night that the lights went out in Georgia.....


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## Soundhound (Jun 21, 2017)

My cousin lives in the 6th and voted for Ossoff. Thanks Babara, but there are just too many Trumpaloids up there to make a real difference, she can't visit anybody's house without Fox News blaring all day long. Night of the living braindead.

2018 looking pretty sketchy right now. Mitch will get his deathcare bill through in time for the 4th and Duhmericans all over the land will wave their flags, kissing their healthcare buh bye. Mike Judge ain't got nothin' on this shit...


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## chimuelo (Jun 21, 2017)

I guess if they want to get screwed over by Government, they prefer it comes from black, Hispanic, Indian, Asian and white racists of the GOP.
If the GOP had any brains they would go to Medicare for all.

They could steal the poor Liberals vote because they don't care who gives them the free stuff, who ever gives them more free stuff they vote for.

That leaves fake progressives and wealthy fake liberals with a few coastal districts, their base which is 50% of their vote now voting for racists, xenaphobes, homophobes, islamaphobes and deplorables...

My Uncle blares Fox News whenever we're over and I switch it over to MSNBC to jack him off.
It takes him a while to realize this since I think he just likes listening to angry people.


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## Soundhound (Jun 21, 2017)

Ailes' idea was primary colors, big type and leggy blondes. No news. Ever. Screaming scare headlines. Worked like a charm.

GOP medicare for all? That's as against their religion as atheism. The Trey Gowdys and Peter Kings of the world only breathe the nitrous oxide of free market mythology. They'd just as soon have medicare for all as let their gay sons marry in church.

But the Democrats never push for it either (not since Hillary in '94). Obama conceded it before the negotiations over the ACA even began. That's where they need to go with this shit now, no more middle of the road namby pamby.

Call out the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies. Run an atheist for president. Drop the pretense, call a spade a spade and the let republicans run the country into the ground—just keep going where we're going, it won't be long now. Then pick up the pieces later. If there are any pieces left.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2017)

I think we'd all have a different perspective on how Obama came up with the plan he got through - with my hero Nancy Pelosi's help - if we were there battling all the forces he had to deal with.

Dismantling the entire insurance industry wasn't going to happen. They had to "bring them aboard."


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## Soundhound (Jun 21, 2017)

I didn't mean to say I didn't understand why Obama did it. I didn't expect the republicans to torpedo the thing the way they did. Silly me. But they did, being insane, craven, profoundly corrupt ideologues. They can't be dealt with. Ever. The democrats have tried everything but being real progressives. I mean (quoting the most disgusting person ever to hold office) what have we got to lose?


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## Quasar (Jun 21, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I think we'd all have a different perspective on how Obama came up with the plan he got through - with my hero Nancy Pelosi's help - if we were there battling all the forces he had to deal with.
> 
> Dismantling the entire insurance industry wasn't going to happen. They had to "bring them aboard."


Dismantling the insurance industry is exactly what needs to happen. Single-payer by any means necessary should be the mantra. Too many working class people got stuck paying legally mandated premiums for so-called bronze tier insurance plans on which they were afraid to make claims because they could not afford the deductibles. Obamacare was a disgraceful sham because it danced around the elephant in the room: parasitical corporate profit. 

The huge "eff-u" vote against neoliberalism and fake progressivism was richly deserved, albeit voting for Trump & the GOP was a terribly misguided way to express that disgust.


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## Soundhound (Jun 21, 2017)

The idea of the ACA was for it to be a first step toward fixing the country's primitive, cruel healthcare system. No one had been able to make substantive changes in the system in decades. The Clintons tried to make real reform 25 years ago and got their asses handed to them by the republicans and the insurance lobby. Part of the ACA bargain was getting the insurance companies onboard. But it was supposed to be a first step. It was a giveaway to them absolutely, but it wasn't that that caused the problems, it was the republicans in deep red states kicking and screaming like the infants they are, refusing to participate. Whenever I hear one of these bastards whining that there are no choices in their state it's infuriating. They did this, and then they complain about it.

Wait till you see what McConnel and his band of criminals come up with (I think they are supposed to release a draft tomorrow, uh huh...). They don't want to fix the healthcare system, they want to return it to what we had before. And many people will suffer. People will lose their healthcare, and people will die. And Trump voters will go right on loving him.

I agree, single payer is the flag the democrats need to take up and hold high. Why they aren't doing this is beyond me. Cue Jimmy's anti-liberal cut and paste in three, two, one...


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2017)

Yep. Need to cut out the profit motive, not needed for healthcare. Profit on other things.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2017)

Quasar, you're making the St. Bernard Swaggart zombie argument. The Russians are delighted.

***

Single-payer sounds great, and I like the idea... but the reality wouldn't be quite so perfect. 

I'm on an iPhone. Will rant in more detail later.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2017)

I should add that I'm not saying that's you, Quasar, just that lots of liberals are in that category. They frustrate the hell out of me.


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## chimuelo (Jun 22, 2017)

I trust guys losing millions to serve rather than liars and losers making millions to serve.

Let Pelosi, Clinton, Obama give speeches for millions, thats all they're cut out for.
We watch them getting wealthy as they fail at everything.
Of course they want to keep losing, it's profitable.
First thing Obama did was go party with Billionaires and give Wall Street speeches.
He didn't even wait for his rewards for failure...

Yuze guys got conned by the wealthy Liberals.
Just sit back and let deplorables, Nazis and racists help you.
Your wealthy whites are never going to win.
How many more elections using Movie Stars and Soros cash must you see before mathematics and reality sink in?

Making America Great Again for a tenth of the price Liberals charge us to fail.
Not a hard decision really...

We must investigate Russia's interference in the 6th District loss now.....


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## Quasar (Jun 22, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> The idea of the ACA was for it to be a first step toward fixing the country's primitive, cruel healthcare system. No one had been able to make substantive changes in the system in decades. The Clintons tried to make real reform 25 years ago and got their asses handed to them by the republicans and the insurance lobby. Part of the ACA bargain was getting the insurance companies onboard. But it was supposed to be a first step. It was a giveaway to them absolutely, but it wasn't that that caused the problems, it was the republicans in deep red states kicking and screaming like the infants they are, refusing to participate. Whenever I hear one of these bastards whining that there are no choices in their state it's infuriating. They did this, and then they complain about it.
> 
> Wait till you see what McConnel and his band of criminals come up with (I think they are supposed to release a draft tomorrow, uh huh...). They don't want to fix the healthcare system, they want to return it to what we had before. And many people will suffer. People will lose their healthcare, and people will die. And Trump voters will go right on loving him.
> 
> *I agree, single payer is the flag the democrats need to take up and hold high. Why they aren't doing this is beyond me. Cue Jimmy's anti-liberal cut and paste in three, two, one...*



Everything you say is true, Soundhound, except why the Dems are not taking this flag up is because too many of them are feeding from the same corporate trough as their GOP colleagues, and to a great extent the "opposition" to GOP-sponsored corporofascist hegemony is phony. In 2008 they had a super-majority in congress and could have potentially got a lot done in terms of curbing the wanton militarism and initiating democratic reforms such as single payer, dismantling for-profit prisons and so on, but there was little real will to do so. And to the extent there might have been, the power relationships between elected representatives and oligarchic interests have been skewed to the point where the US is a "democratic republic" in name only. Alas, the road (as in ancient Rome) from republic to empire is a fait accompli.

At the very least, authentic campaign finance reform is prerequisite to having any kind of chance to change the extant power dynamics, but this is an archetypal "foxes running the hen house" problem, so I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## Soundhound (Jun 22, 2017)

I agree for the most part, with some caveats. My wanting the Democrats to embrace single payer and as Larry says get the profit motive out of healthcare (the reform that should have happened decades ago) doesn't mean I think they will do it. Quite the opposite. Cory Booker recently cast a critical vote for the pharmaceutical industry.

And I think it's going to be a gigantic missed political opportunity. The right wing now running the country is so extreme, the door is left wide open for a real progressive movement. I think it would mean losing an election cycle or two, but at that point maybe the differences will become clear even to Fox News watchers, and the Dems could come back to power in this country. If there's anything remaining.

In hindsight I’m not sure how much the Dems could have gotten done in 2008 even if they had had the will. The Bush administration was such an atrocity the country turned to the Democrats for leadership. And look what happened—the dems managed to push through a republican health care plan, were branded as socialists and lost control of congress right away. As for the middle east I think Obama was between a rock and a hard place. Bush/Cheney poured gasoline on the region, they fucking invaded Iraq for no reason and the you-broke-it-you-bought-it problem I think was very real.

When Obama was elected I really worried someone was going to put a bullet in his head. But the republicans were smarter than that. Instead of creating a martyr, they used the deep vein of racism in this country to fuel a groundswell of opposition and now their hold on power is stronger than ever. The country has moved to the far right.

I wish the democrats hadn’t lost in 2016. As feckless and ineffective as they are, the alternative is worse beyond compare. Clinton was too militaristic, is mishpucka with wall street, but she could have been someone competently fighting for reform, instead of the idiotic, craven incompetence we have now. Even if Trump is impeached (looking more and more like a long shot) Pence or Ryan etc. will step right in and they’ll just get their agenda moving faster.

Maybe it's for the best. There are progressive elements in the democratic party, maybe after these near misses in special elections they’ll start to gain some traction? Regardless, from a branding standpoint (I hate to think in terms like that, but Roger Ailes figured this shit out in 1968 and it’s been winning ever since) right now they’ve got nothing to distinguish themselves from the republicans. Time to drop all pretense and have a platform that calls for getting money out of elections, single player healthcare, fund a renewable energy economy… basically everything Bernie Sanders has been saying since I was a kid.

It will suck in the short term. People are going to lose their healthcare, people will suffer and die. Roe v Wade will be overturned, people will suffer and die. We’ll continue fight endless wars, people will suffer and die. But the difference between the republicans and the democrats will become stark, unmistakable.

How to get the democrats to become a progressive party? Fuck if I know. I’ve been pushing for it since 1972, no one listens to me. 



Quasar said:


> Everything you say is true, Soundhound, except why the Dems are not taking this flag up is because too many of them are feeding from the same corporate trough as their GOP colleagues, and to a great extent the "opposition" to GOP-sponsored corporofascist hegemony is phony. In 2008 they had a super-majority in congress and could have potentially got a lot done in terms of curbing the wanton militarism and initiating democratic reforms such as single payer, dismantling for-profit prisons and so on, but there was little real will to do so. And to the extent there might have been, the power relationships between elected representatives and oligarchic interests have been skewed to the point where the US is a "democratic republic" in name only. Alas, the road (as in ancient Rome) from republic to empire is a fait accompli.
> 
> At the very least, authentic campaign finance reform is prerequisite to having any kind of chance to change the extant power dynamics, but this is an archetypal "foxes running the hen house" problem, so I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2017)

The notion that Democrats just need to become more liberal to win is hopelessly misguided. Sorry.


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## Soundhound (Jun 22, 2017)

I didn't say they'd win, I said they'd lose. For a while. If we're not all dead by the time Trump voters realize they have been fucked up the ass, then maybe we can get back to making things better.


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## chimuelo (Jun 22, 2017)

ACA isn't going anywhere.
I'm convinced GOP leaders want to appear they're trying but can't do it.
That means the ACA will fail for everyone to see.
Smart play, that was the only legislation Liberals accomplished during their "Super Majority."
Wealthy multi millionaire Liberals will be blamed.
But will stay long enough to lose more seats in 2018.

Perfect..


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## Soundhound (Jun 22, 2017)

You're harshing my buzz Jimmy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2017)

Soundhound, my comment was mainly directed at Quasar.

The problem isn't that liberal politicians aren't liberal enough. It's *racism* - here and in Europe.

That's the unpleasant reality. We normal people want to believe that people's grievances are rational, and if only we had better economic policies this wouldn't happen. Sorry, no.

Now, of course economics isn't totally separate. As Naomi Klein says (if not in this video then elsewhere), what these people want is "coal" - a stand-in for a fantasy era when white men ruled and didn't have to suffer the indignity of minorities and women being their equal.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2017)

Now, about single-payer. If the attempted Republican murder passes, we're going to see a movement toward it. To me it's not a magic cure-all.

This is cut/paste from something I wrote a couple of days ago.

...unless there's a serious supplemental insurance system - as in the UK - those of us fortunate enough to have excellent coverage today wouldn't fare well in a single-payer system. I'd happily pay more so other people could have the same coverage we have, but you can't just gloss over that there would be winners and losers - as with every policy.

Another problem is that there really would be "death panels" deciding what gets approved and what doesn't. That's a problem today as well, but the decisions are less centralized.

Bottom line, there are many reasons Obamacare is how it is, and the political realities that influenced it are at least as real as any others.

I'm in favor of a single-payer system in theory, and if we survive the Republican reign of terror there's a good chance the idea will gain steam.

But it isn't a slam dunk that it's the best solution starting where we are today.


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## chimuelo (Jun 22, 2017)

I agree with Nick.
If you disagree you're a racist.

Using race as your excuse for losing every election will eventually succeed.
After 7 years of losing on that criteria, law of averages says success is overdue.


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## Quasar (Jun 22, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Now, about single-payer. If the attempted Republican murder passes, we're going to see a movement toward it. To me it's not a magic cure-all.
> 
> This is cut/paste from something I wrote a couple of days ago.
> 
> ...


I don't know where to begin. You don't think there aren't death panels now? There are, they're just based on wealth and the ability to pay.

But beyond all that. The insurance model for health care is simply inappropriate, since the cost of administering care to 300 million people can be seen as a fixed cost, because phenomena is statistically predictable when dealing with large numbers.

IOW, we have no idea if you or I, as individuals, are going to fall down the stairs and break a kneecap in the next year, but we do know, in aggregate, virtually exactly how many people will do this. (It's the same way that gambling houses can know exactly how much money they're going to make over time, without having to know the outcome of any single roll of the dice.) So you simply socialize the whole affair, allocate public funds and confer benefits based on need.

It's no accident that the US has the highest GNP% dedicated to health care of any developed nation yet lacks universal coverage. The for-profit aspect sucks money out of the pool both by paying dividends to stockholders and by creating an exponential redundancy of administrative costs and oversight, mostly to manage the "business" side of it.

Health care for profit is evil. There aren't "two sides" to this issue. The political racketeers who create pro-corporate, anti-people policies in exchange for special interest money should be tried under the Rico Act and go to prison, and these criminal enterprises that only have the protection of legality because the legislative bodes who craft the laws have been purchased by the gangsters who in turn benefit from them need to be utterly torn down.


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## chimuelo (Jun 22, 2017)

Sing it brotha' Man Quasar....
Wage increases are a natural effect once these middlemen are removed too.
Employers have less overhead.


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## Quasar (Jun 22, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Sing it brotha' Man Quasar....
> Wage increases are a natural effect once these middlemen are removed too.
> Employers have less overhead.



This is true. Once you remove the parasitical entities that only exist to extract money from the system, you'd have more funds to pay real health care workers who actually _contribute_ something - everyone from the doctor to the hospital janitor - better wages.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2017)

Quasar, what I wrote is way past your response.



> You don't think there aren't death panels now?



This is what I said about death panels:

"That's a problem today as well, but the decisions are less centralized."

Why is it automatically better for government bureaucrats to make the decisions centrally rather than for insurance companies? The people on the panels are still not going to be physicians who understand the science.

You're categorically wrong that there aren't two sides to this issue - and I say that as someone who agrees that there's no benefit to having insurance companies make a profit. Well, you're right that there aren't two sides - there are many.

Remember when Txxxx said, "Who knew healthcare was so complicated?" Wasn't he an idiot?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2017)

Chim:



> Using race as your excuse for losing every election will eventually succeed.



It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

And it's not that I use that as an excuse for losing elections, it's that you use "rich liberals" as an excuse for assholes winning them!


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## chimuelo (Jun 22, 2017)

The wealthy Liberals own segregated ghettos.
I grew up in integrated neighborhoods.
We don't have Liberal neighborhoods in Nevada as we are true progressives.
We raised taxes one time and it was to protect our teachers.
California whacked more teachers than anyone, and they claim they are "progressive", yet have more poverty, welfare and income inequality than any other state.
I still have an IOU from them for tax refunds that never came.
Illinois can't even sell lottery tickets anymore because its illegal to take in money you can't afford to pay out.
This is Liberalism. You try to fix it, and you're a racist, or will cause genocide, etc.
They're just big spenders liars and losers.

Fake Liberals should call themselves Regressives.
Their voters get poorer, and the only thing that progresses is their bank accounts and fundraising skills. 

Nobody shakes down cash as much as lying Liberals.
Nobody loses as much cash in elections as they do either.
Just look at Georgias race.
Outspent the racists/Nazis by 7 to 1...!!
These bums can't win a spelling Bee.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2017)

You're pretty engaged by this "winners and losers" thing recently, Nick.


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## chimuelo (Jun 22, 2017)

Winners and Losers......You mean Racists and Liberals?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2017)

Actually, Larry, I was responding to what Chim said about losing elections.

Or are you talking about healthcare? It's kinda the central point with any policy, i'nit? Every public policy has winners and losers, no matter what it is, and if you don't understand who they are then you don't understand the policy.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2017)

You used the phrase both about healthcare and finances in two separate threads- "there are always going to be winners and losers."


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## chimuelo (Jun 23, 2017)

Yes, there will always be con artists too.
Planned Parenthood gave Osoff 730,000 dollars according to public records.
They claim that's a separate account from the 500,000,000 tax payers are forced to give them for abortions.
So our tax dollars to Liberal public unions and "health care" organizations is diverted to their wasteful causes.
Shouldn't the wealthy Liberals be satisfied with losing their own money?
They added 13 Trillion of debt on their own children.
Would love to hear the justification for this lying Liberal scam.
This is what Nancy P considers masterful legislation...

Liberals, real Liberals should be offended by this con job.
No shame as they prevent unborn black babies from the chance at life.
To me, these are the real racists.
Regulating black birth rates, deciding how much food and education they receive.
White Power......in the form of soft bigotry.


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## Quasar (Jun 23, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Quasar, what I wrote is way past your response.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I apologize for looking past the 2nd half of your comment on death panels, which clearly shows that, yes, you do understand that we have de facto death panels today ("less centralized" is probably a good way to put it, even if perhaps euphemistic, as today's panelists are the bean counters for the various private entities who make the decisions based on capitalist cost/benefit analyses.)

I stand by everything else I said though. Health care, like criminal justice, simply does not belong in the realm of market economics, and the for-profit paradigm is nothing less than a barbarism, a crime against humanity. I'm not suggesting that the implementation of a single-payer system which takes insurance companies out of the equation wouldn't have many specific issues to address, often having two or many reasonable and competing POVs. But there aren't "two sides" regarding the legitimacy of the current greed-ridden for-profit model. Its evil, and discussing its pros and cons is like weighing the pros and cons of Jim Crow, the Holocaust or child molestation, in which the moral imperative is obviously clear, not nuanced or relativistic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 23, 2017)

Quasar, the problem is that we're starting from where we are right now. Again, it's not that I don't agree that healthcare shouldn't be a "free market," I just don't agree with your analogies, and I don't see the whole thing as being as straightforward as you do.

My focus is on achievable things, like stopping these Republican pieces of shit from murdering tens of thousands of people. After that, we need to pass legislation that saves the exchanges from sabotage by Txxxx and those assholes.

Mitch McConnell is one of the most detestable human beings who ever lived, and so is Paul Ryan.


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## Quasar (Jun 23, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Quasar, the problem is that we're starting from where we are right now. Again, it's not that I don't agree that healthcare shouldn't be a "free market," I just don't agree with your analogies, and I don't see the whole thing as being as straightforward as you do.
> 
> My focus is on achievable things, like stopping these Republican pieces of shit from murdering tens of thousands of people. After that, we need to pass legislation that saves the exchanges from sabotage by Txxxx and those assholes.
> 
> Mitch McConnell is one of the most detestable human beings who ever lived, and so is Paul Ryan.



Nick, I think it's clear that in terms of the "big picture", we're on the same side. I will opine that there are potential contributions to be made from various perspectives on how to affect change, and that there is a place for both acknowledging the nuts-&-bolts practicalities of the short term and being willing to compromise, as well as in dealing in the less nuanced and more overtly revolutionary hyperbole, where I tend to hang out. History shows that it takes both.

The former approach can lead to incremental but slow-paced change toward justice, whereas the latter IMHO is much better for moving the goalpost, for changing the broader parameters of the debate. And where we are at right now is on the brink of global catastrophe and a humanitarian crises that could quite possibly dwarf anything seen before in known human history.

I think we disagree strongly about what the Democrats need to project in order to become relevant to the process again in a constructive way. Neoliberal, GOP-light garbage played well politically for the Clintons in the '90s, but at the tragic cost of borrowing from, exploiting and thus adding to the legitimization of the Great Lie of the Reagan years, in which the poor (read "black") welfare queens in Detroit were the cause of all of our social and economic problems. I'm not saying that Bill Clinton himself espoused this putrid message (which still enjoys a wide currency among white working class Americans), but the point here is that he didn't win the office by denouncing the GOP so much as win by becoming more like them. The time for this needs to be over if we are to have any viable alternative to the McConnells and Ryans of the world, about whom your characterizations are spot-on. The Dems need to, unambiguously, follow and expand on the Sanders message. After all it was his campaign that generated the buzz and drew the overflowing crowds, and had the DNC not sabotaged his run from the beginning, he would have beaten Trump in a romp.


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## chimuelo (Jun 23, 2017)

Sanders was the legitimate candidate, cast aside by the Business of politics.
I too wanted Sanders because he is the real liberal.
Perfect for bringing the center further left, not to the right.
We were once Union Democrats, but tradesmen, not Unionized VA, IRS, GSA FCC that are far more corrupt and self serving.
You don't need a centrist to win back Democrats voting for Trump, you need a real middle class representative.
Clinton, Kerry, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Wasserman-Shultz and the media Parrots are NOT in touch with the middle class.

Trump was smart enough to see this and regardless if you still got a sore butt, he's giving hope to the abused middle class, folks who lost their equity, their jobs, but instead of rioting found a way back.

Tom Perez is misguided thinking he can use vulgarity and fake outrage to gain back voters.
Sorry fool, there's only one Trump.

If you see a real Liberal who doesn't divide Americans by race, wealth or gender in 2020, participate in the primary before Soros, Rothman and Styers select your candidate for you again...


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## Quasar (Jun 23, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Trump was smart enough to see this and regardless if you still got a sore butt, he's giving hope to the abused middle class, folks who lost their equity, their jobs, but instead of rioting found a way back.



I doubt Trump even truly expected to win, but suspect he launched his campaign to augment his celebrity playboy media status more than anything else. And the hope he offers is the pathetic, delusional promise of a demagogue.

EDIT: Though I think you overstate the case a bit, and sometimes throw labels around in an ad hominem-like way, you are right that mainstream US liberalism - at least as it emanates from power, from the top down - has become a perverted parody of the ideals it once stood for.


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## chimuelo (Jun 23, 2017)

Conway ran a brilliant campaign, that's why Trump won.
Like her or not, she deserves credit.
Trump ruined it so many times. I actually supported him until I started thinking he was unstable.

Trump has changed our political system, that's his accomplishment so far.
I wish him well.
Just like I wanted Obama to succeed, constantly assumed his access to information was better than mine, hence the benefit of the doubt.
But I knew the Insurance company's would bail.
The ACA was meant for legacy, and of course anyone trying to make it work is committing genocide, or are racists. People are so tired of these shitty actors they tune them out and hope for the best.

I want my old Party back.
These 2 Law Firms represent their clients, which isn't us..


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## NYC Composer (Jun 23, 2017)

Quasar-could you expand on the last a bit? How so, exactly?


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## Quasar (Jun 24, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Quasar-could you expand on the last a bit? How so, exactly?



This Salon article is from Jan. 2016, and I think succeeds in some measure at taking an aerial view:

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/06/thi...hy_the_market_and_the_wealthy_win_every_time/


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## chimuelo (Jun 24, 2017)

Basically saying that none of our elites are ever affected by the legislation they pass.
Instead of giving a welfare check to supplement your low income job, they demand you do not work.
If you try to elevate yourself you lose the benefits.

Therefore the Liberal slave remain indebted to the wealthy elites who know whats best for them.
Elect us again and we'll give you other free stuff, but do not try and climb out of our plantation or we'll take away your food, children and free care.

I have many, many more examples of wealthy Liberals and their prospering from poverty programs.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2017)

> you are right that mainstream US liberalism - at least as it emanates from power, from the top down - has become a perverted parody of the ideals it once stood for.



Or is it just that the political realities are different from what you and I wish they were?

Either way, the first step is to get all the money out of our elections. Not some of it, all of it.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 24, 2017)

Quasar said:


> This Salon article is from Jan. 2016, and I think succeeds in some measure at taking an aerial view:
> 
> http://www.salon.com/2016/06/06/thi...hy_the_market_and_the_wealthy_win_every_time/


It looks to me like a lot of gobbledegook and jargon. It assumed a Hillary win and was attempting to portray here as a corporate liberal. Oh, how fervently I wish we had the corporate liberal in office today.


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## Quasar (Jun 24, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> It looks to me like a lot of gobbledegook and jargon. It assumed a Hillary win and was attempting to portray here as a corporate liberal. Oh, how fervently I wish we had the corporate liberal in office today.


The article makes the compelling assertion that the old paradigms such as "red" and "blue" are no longer relevant, no longer sufficient to articulate the various and competing political forces at work in the Empire. Of course it assumed an HC win, it was written 11 months before the election... But it also presciently talked about disgruntled working-class hostility and reaction to a perceived corporate-sponsored elitist tyranny that people know is happening but do not know how to identify and define.

Trump didn't happen in a vacuum. He's just a symptom.


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## Quasar (Jun 24, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> *Either way, the first step is to get all the money out of our elections. Not some of it, all of it.*



This is exactly correct. But who is going to do that? Did the democrats pass campaign finance reform when they had a chance after 11/2008? Of course not. They're no more interested in confronting the oligarchy than the GOP.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 24, 2017)

Trump may have appeared to be a symptom. Now he's a full blown disease.
That's what happens when people fall for sloganeering, first level thinking and admiration of wealthy people on the media. Trump is now showing his true colors, which were obvious to anyone who looked beneath the bad weave. His populism is looking a bit frayed.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 24, 2017)

Also? If Neo-liberalism is defined by believing in market driven forces? Every President since FDR has been Neo-liberal, even if Eisenhower did warn us on the way out the door.


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## chimuelo (Jun 25, 2017)

If you guys want pie in the sky ideology driven everything, you talk big and fail to deliver.
You want to win elections represent the middle class, talk about the economy and jobs, then prove by visiting tech start ups or manufacturing facilities.
Posing in ghettos for selfies every 4 years doesn't fool anyone when you hide your Wall Street appearances....


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