# Amazingly realisitic Star Trek mockup by Mike Verta



## synergy543 (Jul 6, 2008)

For anyone interested in realistic film-score mockups, there is a thread over on the VSL forum that you really don't want to miss. Mike's orchestration and realization brought amazement from some of the best mockup artist in the world. And there's a very nice cookie at the end of it too for those working with Altiverb trying to get that "scoring stage" sound - he gives examples using each individual section. Its very revealing and you can learn a lot by just listening.

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/191 ... ageIndex=1


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## lee (Jul 6, 2008)

*Re: Amazingly realisitic Star Wars mockup by Mike Verta*

...wow!


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## choc0thrax (Jul 6, 2008)

*Re: Amazingly realisitic Star Wars mockup by Mike Verta*

Damn your trickery! It's not Star Wars it's Star Trek! Bleh.


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## lux (Jul 6, 2008)

nice


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 8, 2008)

Yes, wow. Nice of Mike to give us a peek into his working methods also.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 8, 2008)

ok ...WOW! damn that is best Mockup I have ever heard!
nice air!


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## synthetic (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks for the heads-up. Incredible arrangement and mockup.


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 9, 2008)

Really nice mockup & arrangement. Orchestration approach is well done. Mike seems to understand audio as well.


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## Ed (Jul 10, 2008)

I can really see this in the movie actually, very cool. I loved the music on Mikes website as well! he has got to work with some very cool people!! He also does visual effects as well!! Multi talented asshole!!! (ie, I am jealous)


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2008)

Well, I'm glad I so many of you enjoyed the link. I was hesitant to post a link to another board let alone someone else's music but Mike's demo really seemed exceptional.


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## synthetic (Jul 10, 2008)

Funny that it's the most impressive demo that the VSL guys have heard, and it turns out that a majority of the samples are SI and SAM played through GigaStudio and Altiverb. Oops.


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## Synesthesia (Jul 10, 2008)

synthetic @ Thu Jul 10 said:


> Funny that it's the most impressive demo that the VSL guys have heard, and it turns out that a majority of the samples are SI and SAM played through GigaStudio and Altiverb. Oops.



Ha! I was thinking that.
>8o 

I've said before about needing to have (especially on the brass and percs) the sound ringing a room for proper ERs, but I was told it was my mixing skills that were at fault!

I still like the appassionatas (I named em - check the thread - no royalty though. :mrgreen: ) and I still like and use the woods. But the brass I'm rediscovering SAM in Giga4 and I've also bought SI - and of course some of the shorts in EW are unsurpassed for phatness.

I'm finding more and more that the better the room you record in the better the samples. Maybe as Altiverb's sampling gets better and better I'll go back to more of VSL.

I do love the VE3 though - really nice technology! Especially now I have the methodology down for 'holding' the samples in place using a dummy RAX (thanks DG!)

Cheers

Paul

edit:: I feel on re-reading that I'm stating the blindingly obvious: what I mean is that while I always suspected the above (re - ringing the room) my recent experiences in sampling are confirming those suspicions..


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## synthetic (Jul 10, 2008)

I know another composer who uses multiple Altiverbs (early reflections only) for instrument placement and then one reverb for the tail – another Altiverb in his case. I've been wodering what this would sound like with a PCM96 on the tail. But first I need $5000. :(


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## Synesthesia (Jul 10, 2008)

Theres definitely something about the final glue thats important too.

I wonder what the Lex 300 emulation Mike uses is? We need to try and get him over here!

9600 though... one day...


:mrgreen:


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## RiffWraith (Jul 10, 2008)

Synesthesia @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> We need to try and get him over here!



Just sent him a pm....


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## synthetic (Jul 10, 2008)

Synesthesia @ Thu Jul 10 said:


> Theres definitely something about the final glue thats important too.
> 
> I wonder what the Lex 300 emulation Mike uses is? We need to try and get him over here!
> 
> ...



This one is very nice, and you can't beat the price. 

http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/product.php?pid=AD012 (http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/prod ... ?pid=AD012)

Though lately I prefer Sony Reverb. Mostly because my G5/1.8 dual is choking on even one instance of Altiverb 6. Sigh, time for an upgrade.


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## mverta (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks, everyone for the kind words... 

It's interesting, but I hadn't been keeping up with the IR releases; I had no idea Todd-AO had been modeled. Since I've done most of my live sessions in that (now gone) room, I have source stems from the sessions to compare against. I've taken the last couple of days to rebuild my template based on those sessions, and I think it has the potential to be much more convincing than the Star Trek template.

I'll post some examples once I get it tweaked.


_Mike


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 10, 2008)

Hey Mike - welcome to VI man! Been listening to some of your stuff - well done. What's cool is you're still working with samples when you have access to live orchestras. Anyway, enjoy the forum and glad you're here.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 10, 2008)

for a glue I would use something like this 
http://www.classikstudioreverb.com/Main.html?prod-CSR

or Sample City 960


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## mverta (Jul 11, 2008)

A sneak preview of my new Todd-AO based template...

Todd-AO Test

_Mike


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## StrangeCat (Jul 11, 2008)

is your new template the same Todd-AO but you have just used EQ to tailer differently to the instruments?
or are you using actually new samples adjusting the Tails and ER's or same sampels? Same Lex 300 on main buss as the glue reverb. What makes you decide on 300 and not the 960? 
SuperMan!


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## mverta (Jul 11, 2008)

I was not previously using Todd-AO, I was using a combination of rooms. This time, each group is using its own Todd-AO algorithm, and I compensated for the usual differences in sample presence purely by EQ. 

I'm using the 300 because I own one and I know it. And no, these are not new samples, just slightly reconfigured a bit for the new template.


_Mike


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## synthetic (Jul 11, 2008)

That room sounds nice. They just uploaded the Fox stage too.


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## synergy543 (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Mike, welcome to VI and thank you for sharing your experience with others here.

How do you feel the Altiverb Todd-AO compares with your reference stems? What's different or missing and how might you model the Altiverb to more closely resemble Todd-AO? I'm sure its hard to quantify though.

StrangeCat, The Lex300 algorithm is very close to the 480 (precursor to the 960 - even uses the same LARC remote). The main differences between the Lex hardware and sample IRs is that hardware algorithms are "alive" in that they use chorus which adds a very slight pitch shift (to the tail only) to create variations. I'm surprised Audioease hasn't added this to Altiverb but I suppose you could try it yourself at the risk of overdoing it - its a very very subtle effect. Be careful not to add chorus to ERs or direct or it will sound awful! Piano is a good instrument to test with as you'll notice the pitch shift right away. But what sounds bad on the piano, might sound great on other instruments (such as voice). Overall though, Lex algorithms are very different than real rooms - but nice icing on the IR cake. They add a "sheen" like the finish on a fine car.


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## mverta (Jul 11, 2008)

synergy543 @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> Lex algorithms are very different than real rooms - but nice icing on the IR cake. They add a "sheen" like the finish on a fine car.



..and for our purposes, are usually used on final mixes anyway, even if it's not necessarily a 300 or 480L.

The answer about the Altiverb modeling of Todd-AO is: like everything else in this realm, it's a reasonable facsimile, but nothing like actually being there. 

I'm a strong proponent of virtual instruments because without them it is very difficult to get young directors to "get" the score as it's being developed. Somewhere along the way, the once universal ability to extrapolate from piano sketches alone was lost. 

That being said, when pitted up against the performances of the finest film musicians in the world there is absolutely no contest. A great virtual orchestra is like a really, really good blow-up doll of your girlfriend: Looks pretty good; doesn't feel anything like her. 

So my expectations here are never to try and replace the live performance; that's just not going to happen. And for what they are, I think they do a good job. I'm missing hundreds of articulations and control over my instruments, yes, (not that I'd know what to do them, necessarily... you can't just shortcut 40 years of a players' craft), and I have to really work hard to get this sound together, but it's a fabulous tool, bring the orchestral sound to projects that would otherwise never be able to have it, and I'd sooner use a great virtual orchestra than a shitty real one.


_Mike


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 11, 2008)

mverta @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> A great virtual orchestra is like a really, really good blow-up doll of your girlfriend: Looks pretty good; doesn't feel anything like her.
> 
> _Mike



Nominated for vi-control "quote of the year."


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## KingIdiot (Jul 11, 2008)

mverta @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> synergy543 @ Fri Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > A great virtual orchestra is like a really, really good blow-up doll of your girlfriend: Looks pretty good; doesn't feel anything like her.
> ...



oh we're gonna get along just fine....


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## synergy543 (Jul 11, 2008)

:D :D :D 

How do we give Mike stars? I wanna give him one of mine.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 11, 2008)

Thanks Synergy543. I am on it man the song I am doing now I'll test out some things.

Great Replies Mike Doing a Mock-up of the Orchestra is one big pain in the ass when it comes to tweaking IR's eqs and everything in between.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 11, 2008)

I think the value of a blow up girl friend is being highly underestimated here. you don't have to buy her dinner and you can go right to sleep after sex. 

anyways...

Mike,

Welcome to our little corner of the world here. Your work sounds great!

btw if you have not figured it out the star system is just years spent here.
if you signed up 3 years ago you have 3 stars. Warnings however have to earned. Only Mike Greene, Choco and TJ have earned warnings...


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## mverta (Jul 11, 2008)

Could use some feedback:

Compare these two, and tell me which one you like better:


1) Using the "Star Trek" template: Star Trek Template
2) Using the Todd-AO template: Todd-AO


_Mike


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## Elfen (Jul 11, 2008)

Great work Mike, inspirational stuff!

Edit: I like the Todd-AO one better, more perceived dynamic range, more air and rounder finish. But they are both quite good.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 11, 2008)

I do not have a preference.

It is like hearing the same piece in 2 different places and I think either will work. The subtleties of the 2 rooms will most likely only be recognized by you and a few others. Most of the others who can hear a difference probably won't care in this instance though some may wish to just give an opinion. I am not skirting the issue here, this is my opinion. I have others but they might be restricted to a private conversation.

this is not like Groucho Marx who says "I have my morals and if you don't like those I have others"

It is the composition,orchestration and midi realization in general which i believe is most important in your case. the ambience will generally come close once you find a place you like as you most likely will alter things to what you want your ears to hear.


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## mverta (Jul 11, 2008)

I chose an established chunk and orchestration as a baseline because they're knowns. And while I'm certainly aware of contextual differences, the question here was a simple one: which do you like better? It needs no analysis or qualifications. One inherently connects with you more than the other.


_Mike


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## synergy543 (Jul 11, 2008)

mverta @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> Compare these two, and tell me which one you like better:


1) Using the "Star Trek" template: 
Sounds "open" with a much wider frequency response than #2. Bass is very strong. Horns are rich and full.

2) Using the Todd-AO template:
Has very strong mid "resonance" which adds character but horns sound "filtered".

Overall, I prefer #1 as it just sounds richer to me. 
But why are the horns so different? Is this simply the difference in the IR? Can't be. The horns in the first have a realistic "buzz" whereas the second horns sound filtered as if heard from a distance.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 11, 2008)

fine- i like the Star trek template as it appears cleaner without muddying low frequencies.


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## mverta (Jul 11, 2008)

Thank you!

_Mike


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## sevaels (Jul 11, 2008)

#1 =o


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 12, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> anyways...
> 
> Mike,
> 
> ...



Yes Mike, welcome...great work on the trek arrangement and to add to what Craig said above...just know that everything a guy named Nick Batzdorf says is pretty much wrong...no matter how hard he tries to tell you he is always right. It's just a thing with him. :wink: :mrgreen: 

We have a ritualistic LA/Valley located diner coming up later this month...you are welcome to attend and put some faces to the names. RSVP to Craig Sharmat to get the info and put your name in if you can make it. o-[][]-o


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## Lunatique (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow, Mike. Very nice work. 

We have a lot in common. I'm also all over the map in terms of what I do (artist, writer/director, composer, photographer). I'm a bit behind on the music side though, as the other stuff were taking up all of my time. I'm trying to remedy that now though by having quit my last job as studio art director and concentrating on music for a while. 

You can check out my website here: www.ethereality.info


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## choc0thrax (Jul 12, 2008)

Brian Ralston @ Sat Jul 12 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Fri Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > anyways...
> ...



Heh I didn't know TJ had gotten a warning. I'll be in LA in November, shame I won't be there in time for LAVI. 

I remember this Mike guys website from a couple of years ago, good music.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 12, 2008)

Choco I think you were the only one who really deserved a warning o-[][]-o 

The other guys thought it was cool so they requested one also.

Or maybe TJ asked for one and we denied it cause we realized at that point the software could not erase them and could potentially ban someone or something like that.

the quality control on this board is astounding.


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## Lunatique (Jul 12, 2008)

What's this warning thing I keep hearing about, and what does a guy have to do to get one? Run over a moderator's dog? :D


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 12, 2008)

I have found out you do not need to run over someone's dog to get one. You merely need to ask but it is kind of like a tattoo, you can't get rid of it.


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## artsoundz (Jul 12, 2008)

JohnnyMarks @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> mverta @ Fri Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > A great virtual orchestra is like a really, really good blow-up doll of your girlfriend: Looks pretty good; doesn't feel anything like her.
> ...



The music sounds great but how the hell did you get a blowup doll of my girlfriend?


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## choc0thrax (Jul 13, 2008)

I always thought it was more like a hot prostitute who on closer inspection has an adams apple but shes hot so it's ok.


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## CFDG (Jul 29, 2008)

I really like the way threads are dying in here.

VI-Quote Of The Year 2008? 

I think Bruce Richardson already won that five months ago, _Redde Caesari quae sunt Caesaris_ :

"A dildo will never be a penis. If you drive it skillfully it will do the job. It might even do a better job in skillful hands than a real penis will do attached to an idiot. But that's where it ends. A dildo is a dildo, and a penis is a penis. Period."

C.


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## Leo Buzz (Aug 1, 2008)

synergy543 @ Sun Jul 06 said:


> For anyone interested in realistic film-score mockups, there is a thread over on the VSL forum that you really don't want to miss. Mike's orchestration and realization brought amazement from some of the best mockup artist in the world. And there's a very nice cookie at the end of it too for those working with Altiverb trying to get that "scoring stage" sound - he gives examples using each individual section. Its very revealing and you can learn a lot by just listening.
> 
> http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/191 ... ageIndex=1



O.O ... Wow!! Just amazing!!


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2008)

CFDG @ Tue Jul 29 said:


> I think Bruce Richardson already won that five months ago, _Redde Caesari quae sunt Caesaris_ :
> 
> "A dildo will never be a penis. If you drive it skillfully it will do the job. It might even do a better job in skillful hands than a real penis will do attached to an idiot. But that's where it ends. A dildo is a dildo, and a penis is a penis. Period.".



HAHAHAHA Bruce.


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## synthetic (May 4, 2009)

Random update, Mike Verta recently married Danica McKellar. 

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20267540,00.html (http://www.people.com/people/article/0, ... 40,00.html)

I guess that's why he hasn't been posting? So there you go, keep practicing...


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