# Score budget negotiations



## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

Hey there - need advice. I know this topic has been discussed many times but here is my situation....

I have four movies on the table. 

- The first film has a 1mill budget and I'm offered 20K for the score. The director is a big music fan and wants live strings. So I figure I'll be spending at least half that on the strings. 

- The second one also with the 1mill budget is offering me 10K. The director is fine with an all 'synthestrated' score. Doesn't care about live instruments at all. 

- The third one with a 2mill has yet to be negotiated but the director is very big on music and I'm hoping I can get to 30K

- The fourth one has a 500K budget and they want to pay me a measly 3K

On all four films I have not seen a contract yet and I don't now what they want to do with publishing rights. 

So I guess my question is, when negotiating, how do I convince the film makers to pony up more cash as well as give me the publisher share (in the case of the lower paying gigs)?

My friend is a master negotiator and took a recording with and without live instruments to demonstrate the pros and cons. He said you should always try to negotiate for at least 5% of the overall film budget for movies. But these days that doesn't seem to ever work out.

I've found that the film makers who love and appreciate live players are usually willing to negotiate higher fees...

For me, I'm just terrible at negotiating. All I learned is from watching Pawn Stars, lol

Anyway - any little tips that could help arm me to get a better result would be greatly appreciated. 

thanks!


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## Christof (Apr 9, 2013)

You must be one of the most demanded composers in your region!
Four movies???
Give me one or two!


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

> You must be one of the most demanded composers in your region!



No, just serendipitous timing that all these came in around the same time this year. 

I have worked too cheap in the past - but I can't do it for peanuts anymore. I'd rather say no to something that isn't worth my time or I don't have some or all of the publishing rights.

It's a jungle out there folks! :shock:


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## reddognoyz (Apr 9, 2013)

I say if they want live insist that they pay. None of the budgets are high enough to warrant a bona fide live string date out of your pocket, and any money saving short cuts to this are all going to be long cuts for you. 

pass on the 3k job if that's all that's in it for you. 3k film jobs lead to more of the same imho. Tell the 3k guys to get in line!!, you're a busy composer who earns more than the bus boy, which is who you'll make less than if you take that job. : )

congrats on having all that going on, sounds exciting.


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## Greg (Apr 9, 2013)

I say go with whichever one you think has the most potential to be successful. Also try keeping the publishing rights to your music, give them exclusivity for a year or two? Getting the publishing rights might be tricky because sometimes the studio or investors want a piece of those too. So if the director or line producer agree, get the contract written asap.

Maybe go for a bigger chunk of soundtrack sales too? That can be nice if the movie has success.


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

> Also try keeping the publishing rights to your music, give them exclusivity for a year or two? Getting the publishing rights might be tricky because sometimes the studio or investors want a piece of those too.



Ok this is the kind of info I was hoping for in this thread, I never thought of that. So your saying I could negotiate they get the publishing and then it reverts back to me after two years? How would that work, submitting a cuesheet revision to ASCAP after two years?

And yes, having soundtrack sales in the contract is a must. 

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a contract that does not address very important things like publishing and/or soundtrack sales. Either that or the details regarding that are very murky.


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 9, 2013)

A great topic. Thank you for sharing. THIS is the kind of thing we should be discussing, instead of pointless debates. Also a perfect thread to procrastinate my own writing this morning and for that I especially thank you!

EDIT* I also meant to add, well done and congratulations for generating so much work. It is always encouraging (at least for me), motivating and inspiring to see someone doing well. Your music and the experience you are giving your clients is obviously working. Bravo and keep it up!

The answers that will emerge from all of us here, though helpful and wide-ranging, will vary. Without knowledge of these relationships or whether these people are likely to go on to other things also hold value. I look forward to hearing other people's suggestions.

Might I suggest getting someone to at least negotiate for you? As much as I love Chumlee and the gang (Pawn Stars reference), you really ought to consider having someone handle this. Perhaps an attorney for a flat fee per hour? Just brief them beforehand. At 10-15% on these kind of deals, where there is not a huge amount of cable backend, an agent might not be worth it.

Film one: PLEASE don't spend half of your money investing in this project. Considering the costs of score prep, orchestration, etc etc....let alone composing. You are not making enough here, especially AFTER taxes. Let them pay for the live session, BEFOREHAND, so that you are not stuck with the bill or expected to float them until they pay you back many months later, if ever. YES, it does happen. If they insist, you should negotiate for an Exec Producer credit. Lastly, you need to get at least half of the publishing.

Film two: Hopefully it is not a full-on symphonic score. At this price point, how many days can you justify working on it? At this price point, publishing should be non-negotiable. You should also be allowed to cut the less important scenes with previous music in your catalogue.

Film three: The one film of the bunch that seems acceptable in terms of negotiating a fee/terms. Quite honestly, you have posted several moving and salient threads here Passenger 57. One stated your need for a life/work adjustment....the other stated you had scored 65 or so projects n a relatively short timespan. Although, I should hardly be the one to suggest this, as I keep a very full schedule myself, perhaps your time is better spent on only pursuing Films 2 and 3 of this list? The others just wear you out for not enough money. Just a humble thought.

Film four: Unless it is a dear friend, a directing Wunderkind of sorts or you feel like rolling the dice on it, as you believe it is a Napoleon Dynamite, then I would pass on this one. You have a full plate as it is. Perhaps offer to cut the film with music you own or better yet provide them with a library of cues THEY can cut with for that fee and compose their Main Title.

Just ideas, in a very stream of consciousness, having a drink at the composer's bar sort of way. Again, my 2p.

-B


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## Greg (Apr 9, 2013)

passenger57 @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> > Also try keeping the publishing rights to your music, give them exclusivity for a year or two? Getting the publishing rights might be tricky because sometimes the studio or investors want a piece of those too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You keep the publishing 100% but allow them to use the music exclusively for a period of 2 years. That way you get all of the performance royalties in perpetuity and after two years, you can license the music for other projects. Keeping ownership of your score music is HUGE! Always try to negotiate for it, especially if they want to pay you less money.


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## jeffc (Apr 9, 2013)

This may be stating the obvious, but I can't imagine this wouldn't be a good time to make a few calls to some agents or get a referral. Get them to do the deals for you and get a rep (assuming you don't have one) at the same time. That's really the best way to get in with one - when you've got a project to negotiate. 

I'd scratch out the 3k one, unless you think it's a breakthrough film or a director you 'have' to work with - because it will most likely be a losing proposition otherwise,as films that small rarely see the light of day.

I'd really look at the rest objectively and see if any/all are worth your time.

1. Are they honestly really good? Be brutally honest here, because I can tell you from personal experience if you've got 10 average indies or 50 under your belt, the benefit to your career will be the same. People don't care about quantity, more quality. One 'hit' indie is worth more than 20 non-hits, regardless of what you were paid for it.

2. Do you think the director/producers are on their way up? Again, I've worked with a bunch of directors who have never done another film since! So, you kind of have to try and research and feel if the people involved are people that you can see working with in the future.

3. If it's YES to all 4, then I'd figure out a way to do them. I think money shouldn't be the deciding factor (obviously you have to eat, but it shouldn't be the only thing). Since the budgets of all of them are low, I'd go out on a limb and say you're not interested in them solely for the money, so there must be something else.

I'll also say that I've never worked on anything where they are not 'big on music'. Everyone either likes music, or considers themselves an expert on all things music.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but I think it's necessary before you get to the negotiation part of it. Smart choices on what you work on are equally as important on how much you are paid. Because if you work on something successful, that will have the most impact and benefit for you in the long run, far outweighing how much or little you were paid for the film that got you there.

But then, get a lawyer or better yet - an agent - to do the deals. Either get a friend who's got an agent to make a call for you or just do some cold-calls. There are only 5 in town (assuming you're in LA). I find that those old percentage of the budget calculations and figures don't mean anything. Producers have what they have - and it's getting lower and lower from studio pics and especially indies. 


Hope there's some type of help in my ramblings....

J


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

Thank you all for the feedback so far. 

Yes, my projects are all up and coming directors and all four projects are quality films not bmovie material.

As for agents or representatives, I never thought to contact one and have never been contacted. I assumed they are only interested in bigger name guys. I'm just a small potato and a commission on what I make wouldn't interest them. I only assumed people like that are in the loop when you get big time gigs. 

Also all the directors are friends, and connections I've nurtured for years but they also have other people/studio financiers in the loop so I'd rather go to bat for myself then tell them they have to talk to a 3rd party. Maybe I'm wrong about this, thats just my gut feeling. That said, there is another project with potential for working with Alist people, if that happens then thats a different story completely and I'd have to at least try and hire someone. I have no interest at all in trying to woo some agent.. he'd just say 'get in line buddy! or ignore my phone call' 



> A great topic. Thank you for sharing. THIS is the kind of thing we should be discussing, instead of pointless debates. Also a perfect thread to procrastinate my own writing this morning and for that I especially thank you!



Thank you! I hope this is a discussion that can enlighten all of us. 
A single idea, email, phone call could mean 100K of residuals at stake over the course of a movie's life. I don't want to screw it up with lack of information or imagination.



> I'll also say that I've never worked on anything where they are not 'big on music'. Everyone either likes music, or considers themselves an expert on all things music.


Well I've been there. I've worked with directors that have very little or no input and others that are 100% hands on scrutinizing every detail. The best are the ones that think you are John Williams and you are awesome! lol



> One stated your need for a life/work adjustment....the other stated you had scored 65 or so projects n a relatively short timespan. Although, I should hardly be the one to suggest this, as I keep a very full schedule myself, perhaps your time is better spent on only pursuing Films 2 and 3 of this list? The others just wear you out for not enough money. Just a humble thought.



It's really a catch 22 for me. I desperately need a break, I'm exhausted and getting sick all the time, have bills to pay, kids to support and just by coincidence ALL my best connections are doing their 'next big gig' this year. I have to do them because they all have potential to lead to bigger things. Otherwise most of my efforts the last 5 years are wasted. 
I do however greatly appreciate being able to post here and have discussions like this, it really helps!


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## Ciaran Birch (Apr 9, 2013)

Brobdingnagian @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> A great topic. Thank you for sharing. THIS is the kind of thing we should be discussing, instead of pointless debates. Also a perfect thread to procrastinate my own writing this morning and for that I especially thank you!



+1,000,000


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## RiffWraith (Apr 9, 2013)

Ok, I have to but in here. 



Greg @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> You keep the publishing 100% but allow them to use the music exclusively for a period of 2 years. That way you get all of the performance royalties in perpetuity and after two years, you can license the music for other projects. Keeping ownership of your score music is HUGE! Always try to negotiate for it, especially if they want to pay you less money.




That is NOT the way to go. The film keeps the pub, and the composer keeps the writers. The only exception might be, is if you negotiate to get back the exclusive license after a certain time period - but you would only do this is you aren't getting paid. If you do get paid a decent sum, there is NO WAY you as the composer should ever ask for any of the publishing. It's bad form, and unprofessional. You do want to keep 100% of the writers, but bear in mind, that the film keeps ownership of the music. With exception of the example above, the composer NEVER keeps ownership of the score. If you want to keep ownership, you are in the wrong business.

Cheers.


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

> That is NOT the way to go. The film keeps the pub, and the composer keeps the writers. The only exception might be, is if you negotiate to get back the exclusive license after a certain time period - but you would only do this is you aren't getting paid. If you do get paid a decent sum, there is NO WAY you as the composer should ever ask for any of the publishing. It's bad form, and unprofessional. You do want to keep 100% of the writers, but bear in mind, that the film keeps ownership of the music. With exception of the example above, the composer NEVER keeps ownership of the score. If you want to keep ownership, you are in the wrong business.


Ok fair enough, but if your not making much upfront, I see no problem asking for part of the publishing. How is that unprofessional? No offense, but your statement makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
I've done movies where I was offered all publishing for less upfront, half for a little more and alot upfront for no pub. Every scenario - (again this is the low budget world I'm talking about)
But in these cases as I stated above, the subject just hasn't come up yet.
And what is a decent sum? That might mean something different to you than it does to me.



> If you want to keep ownership, you are in the wrong business.



Again, that is false. That is if you are talking about writer and publisher. 40% of my income is from publishing residuals. That pays for my car, updates to software, tuition for my kids school, electric bill, gas bill, phone, etc.... If that is 'being in the wrong business' then maybe you can enlighten me more


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## reddognoyz (Apr 9, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> Ok, I have to but in here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What has been done , at least for series work, has been creating a "library" of music that you licens, however I've never had one iota of success in getting any publishing for anything where it would matter.


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 9, 2013)

Chiming in again here friends, I think jeffc raised some great points and are worth a re-read.

Having read your position, and both understanding and empathizing with it, I still think delegating the negotiation/paperwork part of the process to a rep (agent/attorney, etc) might alleviate some of your stress. You potentially have a lot on your plate. Speaking for myself, having someone there to deal with that side of things alleviates enough pressure and time to focus on the music. I don't expect them to get me work, as I bring plenty of my own. Anytime they do put me forward for something, I see it as a bonus.

To address your specific point about dealing with friends, many of my clients are my friends as well. However, they are never funny about dealing with my agent. In fact, most times they ask one of their team, be it an EP, Post Supe, Music Supe etc to handle that side of things. In my case, it has always been amicable and of course some deals are easier than others. I have yet to lose a friend or a client this way.

You seem to have more than enough going on that an agency would be interested, or at least agree to do deals for you. As your relationships grow and you find yourself in the midst of a choice project, you will already have someone in place that you trust to follow thru. Yes, it is 10-15%, but then again, if that is enough to ease the burden of the original question and spend more time/energy on music, perhaps it is a valid way forward.


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 9, 2013)

Ok here are my thoughts, although I have never been in the situation of juggling 4 projects.

1st of all, I have a hard time saying "no" to anyone even the 3K job. I would still do it if at all possible.

When someone gives you an offer, feel free to say "yes, that is a good price...but if you give me $xxx more I can do a better job because...." and be ready to give reasons, like better studio, musicians, engineer etc..

If they do not cringe at your counter offer then you where too low.

ALWAYS keep 100% or writers share. that is a deal breaker. Try to get as much of the publishing as you can. 

Good luck, stay healthy! Just stay on a sensible, workable schedule. Keep exercising.

Congrats on getting where many wish to go.


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## rgames (Apr 9, 2013)

First off, I always point out that questions of this kind are never answered well on public forums. There's too much information required to offer any kind of meaningful advice.

However, the glaringly obvious answer is to take them all and hire help.

rgames


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## RiffWraith (Apr 9, 2013)

I dont see how any composer wites a score as a work for hire, gets paid a fee, keeps the writers, AND keeps the publishing. Sorry, just dont see it.

But what the hell do I know???


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

> Having read your position, and both understanding and empathizing with it, I still think delegating the negotiation/paperwork part of the process to a rep (agent/attorney, etc) might alleviate some of your stress. You potentially have a lot on your plate. Speaking for myself, having someone there to deal with that side of things alleviates enough pressure and time to focus on the music. I don't expect them to get me work, as I bring plenty of my own. Anytime they do put me forward for something, I see it as a bonus.



I guess that would lead me to my next question... are people like this available for hire on a per project basis? I just don't see myself dealing with an agent. But as for hiring someone, that is a possibility. Where do I look?



> First off, I always point out that questions of this kind are never answered well on public forums. There's too much information required to offer any kind of meaningful advice.
> 
> However, the glaringly obvious answer is to take them all and hire help.



Agreed - but I am getting at least a few tidbits of information that are very helpful. I have these kinds of conversations all the time with my composer friends, and everyone has a different answer or story. 



> I dont see how any composer wites a score as a work for hire, gets paid a fee, keeps the writers, AND keeps the publishing. Sorry, just dont see it.
> 
> But what the hell do I know???



If you work in the big budget world then you have a valid point I suppose, but I've done several low budget movies where the pay is crap up front but I keep all the backend in exchange. Also I've heard of a big A-list movie where the composer kept all the back end (or the company they work for?) Maybe it was 'The King's Speech?' I don't know perhaps I am wrong on that.
Anyway, I'm in the low budget world where it's like the wild west.


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## Greg (Apr 9, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> I dont see how any composer wites a score as a work for hire, gets paid a fee, keeps the writers, AND keeps the publishing. Sorry, just dont see it.
> 
> But what the hell do I know???



It should very much be part of the negotiating process if you're not happy with the upfront money. It's still worth it for the producers because they're essentially getting a custom score of 'licensed' music. Also they can barter with the term of exclusivity they desire. 

Why would you want to give them 100% ownership of your music when the film will probably disappear in 5 years. Then the music sits locked to that picture. If you got publishing afterr a certain time, you could add it to your library for licensing and that can be extremely lucrative 

Greg


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## Mike Greene (Apr 9, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> What has been done , at least for series work, has been creating a "library" of music that you licens, however I've never had one iota of success in getting any publishing for anything where it would matter.


I did once. (And only once.) I was paid to supply the custom library for an hour show (43 minutes) where music was wall to wall. A ton of work. My fee was $1,000 per episode. Ridiculous, but it was a regular client who's done right by me on other shows, so I agreed to it.

Eventually the network (cable network) decided they couldn't afford even $1k per episode. They wanted to go with a regular library company instead. They found some company that would charge $10 per episode. (This whole thing is sounding so crazy, I'm questioning the truth of my own story even as I type it!) I said I'd match that price. They agreed. The other library would have kept publishing, so I kept mine.

The bad part is that show was cancelled after 4 episodes. But I still made around $10k in ASCAP royalties, so I came out ahead. And more importantly, I own the songs and can use them again. That's really paid off, because writing music beds is really time consuming.

Never gotten a deal like that since, though. Although there have been a couple shows where I was in charge of doing my own cue sheets, so I put myself as publisher, rather than asking who the publisher was supposed to be. I got away with it on two shows, although very little money was involved with either.

Now that I think about it, I know a guy who wrote a pretty famous theme song (on NBC) and kept the publishing. It wasn't a license deal, it was actually a work for hire for a theme he was hired to write specifically for the show. I forgot what he told me about how he got away with keeping publishing, but I think it was basically a case of the network lawyers being asleep.

My own narcissistic stories aside, JeffC's advice on this topic is excellent. Be sure you've read his post.


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## JJP (Apr 9, 2013)

The advice given about finding someone to handle negotiations for you is excellent. However make sure that they negotiate their fee on top of whatever you get. You shouldn't get the $20k a project is offering and then have to hand over a percentage of that to an agent. The agent should get you more to cover her fee.

The other important point is that if these projects want live musicians, it should come out of the production budget -- NOT YOUR FEE. They want live because they feel it will enhance the value of the production. You shouldn't have to pay money to increase the value of their film. If you're doing that, you should share in the revenue of the film like any other investor.

Think about it. If they're offering $20k but thinking that $10k will go to the recording budget, they are really only offering you $10k. No matter how they spin it, that's what they are doing. Negotiate with that in mind. If you're willing to do it for $10k, fine, but the production should then be responsible for recording costs, not you. If they decide to make things more expensive, it's not coming out of your pocket.

As for the $3k film, I'd stall them as long as possible until you know whether any of the other three will pan out. Since nothing is in writing at this point, it could end up being the only legitimate gig. If you have no work at all you may decide it's worth doing. Otherwise, $3k for a feature? That had better have some real potential or it's not worth the time.


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

> The other important point is that if these projects want live musicians, it should come out of the production budget -- NOT YOUR FEE. They want live because they feel it will enhance the value of the production. You shouldn't have to pay money to increase the value of their film. If you're doing that, you should share in the revenue of the film like any other investor.
> 
> Think about it. If they're offering $20k but thinking that $10k will go to the recording budget, they are really only offering you $10k. No matter how they spin it, that's what they are doing. Negotiate with that in mind. If you're willing to do it for $10k, fine, but the production should then be responsible for recording costs, not you. If they decide to make things more expensive, it's not coming out of your pocket.
> 
> As for the $3k film, I'd stall them as long as possible until you know whether any of the other three will pan out. Since nothing is in writing at this point, it could end up being the only legitimate gig. If you have no work at all you may decide it's worth doing. Otherwise, $3k for a feature? That had better have some real potential or it's not worth the time.



Very solid advice thank you. Yes the 20K one is for the whole thing, myself, the musicians everything. Thats as much as I could get out of them but they leave it to me to handle the details. Just as long as the director can sit in a chair in a studio somewhere and hear a quartet sawing away for a few hours, I should be good. 

As for the 3K one - thats tricky. The director is great, they have name actors in it and the movie is very cool. But everyone involved did it on the cheap and the production company involved wants this movie to lead to bigger things. So I'll probably go along with it.. If they do a sequel and bigger budget, then I can opt for more upfront. 
Still though 3k is very very low.


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

> Now that I think about it, I know a guy who wrote a pretty famous theme song (on NBC) and kept the publishing. It wasn't a license deal, it was actually a work for hire for a theme he was hired to write specifically for the show. I forgot what he told me about how he got away with keeping publishing, but I think it was basically a case of the network lawyers being asleep.


Reminds me of the story about the guy who did that cue in Fantasy Island where the people show up in the beginning. That cue was used in ALL the episodes, he made millions for a days work. 

Also MASH theme song, etc..


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## jeffc (Apr 9, 2013)

Man, I rarely post here, and hate getting dragged into some of these things... but I'm sometimes shocked at some of the mis-information that people spout off as fact.

You can ABSOLUTELY negotiate to keep 100% of the publishing on an indie film. No question about it. I've done it on several, sometimes it's hard to get, sometimes it's the easiest thing in the world. But it always can be negotiated. Work for hire or not, a lot of indie films know that the upfront money is low so an agent (or yourself) will always try and get a piece of the publishing. Writers is a given. I know some guys (who you would know) who kept publishing (and ownership on a few occasions) on some huge film music cues that have gone on to take a life of their own and made the composer a nice chunk. 

Studio films, forget it, you'll never get publishing. But as Mike said, sometimes the lawyers are sleeping and I, one time only, kept publishing on a network gig that made some nice backend that I never would have gotten had we not tried to get it. The worst they can say is no. And again, having someone else doing the deal for you helps. You can surely get a lawyer to do a one-off film deal negotiation. But again, even getting an agent to do a one off negotiation for you, even if you're at the bottom of his list, still gets you on their radar in a viable backdoor way - much easier getting your phone call taken with an offer of free money for some agent, then sending your demo with no job in hand trying to get an agent. It's one of the few times that you would have a little bit of leverage - having several gigs in hand. And I can say firsthand that that's how I approached an agent many years back - when I had an offer in hand and wanted to use that to get someone to sign me. 

And re: "King's Speech", that backend thing is a whole new issue that's hitting indie films, a company called Cutting Edge, who finances the whole music package on films and they are everywhere these days, but that's a whole other discussion....

fwiw, J


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## gsilbers (Apr 9, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> I dont see how any composer wites a score as a work for hire, gets paid a fee, keeps the writers, AND keeps the publishing. Sorry, just dont see it.
> 
> But what the hell do I know???



that happens all the time. you basically license the music for that movie exclusively. you could do it for x amount of time and then you can use that music for other gigs/libary etc. 
producers dont like this because its basically making a call to a lawyer to draft a simple document for about $300 an hour x4 or whatever time they can make them believe its worth.


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 9, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> [
> Never gotten a deal like that since, though. Although there have been a couple shows where I was in charge of doing my own cue sheets, so I put myself as publisher, rather than asking who the publisher was supposed to be. I got away with it on two shows, although very little money was involved with either.
> .





I ALWAYS hope/try to do my own Music Cue Sheets. I make sure everything is correct, all my times are totaled, my name and ASCAP # is clear and obvious. I feel that has paid off BIG time for me judging by the amount of royalties I've gotten.

And unless they tell me otherwise, I put myself as the Publisher. I make them find or correct the error. I've not made a lot off of publishing because usually the good production companies are on top of everything.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 9, 2013)

gsilbers @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> RiffWraith @ Tue Apr 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont see how any composer wites a score as a work for hire, gets paid a fee, keeps the writers, AND keeps the publishing. Sorry, just dont see it.
> ...



You and Jeffc are talking about something that is different than I am talking about. I will politely bow out of the convo now.

Cheers.


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## gsilbers (Apr 9, 2013)

passenger57 @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> Hey there - need advice. I know this topic has been discussed many times but here is my situation....
> 
> I have four movies on the table.
> 
> ...



heres my take on it. i work on distribution so however ud like take to it....


i see people having a fit over the budget of the movie. which in my opinion is whatever. shouldn't matter that much imo. 

the distribution game is where its at. imo

for example, real world example. a tv movie of the week (yes those low budget lifetime crap) sells like hot cakes abroad. if its broadcasted abroad in one territory.. lets say france, then that license is about $160.000. and it sells in almost all EU countries, AUS, Japan , brazil and southamerica. thats about that amount for each. then there is rebroadcasts , EST/VOD , DVD release, and the ad revenue. thats all for a low budget movie. imagine a higher budget one. 

so getting at least 1% of distribution (or less) imo is something to look at. and try to negotiate. specially if u see an known name attached to the project. 
maybe international distribution only. or whatever. maybe making the producers feel that you are taking the risk with them. which is a risk of course. it doesnt do well and you got paid little upfront. thus, the known name attaced to it. on the producer side or artists. someone who can have a connection to distribution deals with bigger networks. 

same with any media that you score to. trailers... just imagine if they use your music 
for every trailer (a through g - different edits) of a movie and they show that on every theatre/web etc. then 3k for that trailer is stupid cheap. but 30K then it makes sense since its all about the distribution . how many eyes will be on this. 6 versions of your music times a thousand places and repeats where its shown around the world. 

heck, in jingles the same. a bud commercial in a studio i worked for got paid 30k because it was a national US campaign. that one with gorge Clooney doing the VO. music was like 2 minutes. x 4 variations. of some 4 chord country like song.


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## gsilbers (Apr 9, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> gsilbers @ Wed Apr 10 said:
> 
> 
> > RiffWraith @ Tue Apr 09 said:
> ...



hmm didnt think so. how is it different?
music publishing + wiriters shares= to licensing your music. 

he mentioned to keep publishing. im not following what u said then :(


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## vlado hudec (Apr 9, 2013)

1mill budget and they offer you 10k for music? It is 1% of total budget, sounds ridiculous low to me


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## passenger57 (Apr 9, 2013)

> 1mill budget and they offer you 10k for music? It is 1% of total budget, sounds ridiculous low to me


Yep, welcome to the low budget world of film scoring where people expect you to sweat blood and tears for nothing in return for a pat on the back. Half of me is jaded and kind of fed up with the whole thing, and the other half still wants to be in the game and do great work. Only time will tell which half wins.

At least we're not actors - they have it ALOT worse.

Maybe I'll just slave away for five more years, then retire young and buy a bicycle shop on the island of Kawai. Try for a simpler life.


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## JJP (Apr 10, 2013)

gsilbers @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> the distribution game is where its at. imo


This is very good advice. I can't believe I forgot to mention it myself. (Time to take off the musician hat and think like a businessperson.) I have been on the investment side of some projects, and distribution is of paramount importance. It is actually important enough that when someone approaches me with a low-budget project, the first thing that goes through my head is, "Will this sell overseas?"

The first question I ask is, "What are your distribution plans?" If they say, "We're submitting to several festivals hoping to get picked up," I'm wary. If they already have have a relationship with a good distributor, that's a good sign. If they have presales, that's golden, but extremely rare on low-budget films (i.e. almost never happens).


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 10, 2013)

passenger57 @ Tue Apr 09 said:


> > Maybe I'll just slave away for five more years, then retire young and buy a bicycle shop on the island of Kawai. Try for a simpler life.



Sounds like a plan. I'm in, except that I will be on the Big Island opening a fishing tackle shop. However, I'd still take on at least a few shows and even throw myself into becoming a better slack-key guitarist. :D 

BTW, I see no problem in ordering a bicycles for myself and the family from a neighbouring Island, if you want to barter some rods/reels... :wink: 

OK then, it's settled. Hawaii 2017 (starting the countdown from this year).

Mahalos Braddah and Aloooooha.


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## sluggo (Apr 10, 2013)

Just a quick question p57, how old are you?


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## Brobdingnagian (May 9, 2013)

How did things end up playing out for you Passenger57? Swimmingly, I hope...


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## passenger57 (May 10, 2013)

sluggo @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Just a quick question p57, how old are you?



Sorry folks been away from vi for a while!

Answer -> 44. But I look 30 and feel like I'm 80 so go figure haha



> How did things end up playing out for you Passenger57? Swimmingly, I hope...


Everything is still in progress and/or postponed, nothing new to report yet. In the meantime I decided to take a month off to recalibrate. Feels good. Am thinking of switching careers to become a key maker or grave digger, haha


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## Dean (May 11, 2013)

You should ask your friend(master negotiater)to negotiate for you and pay him a fee hes happy with.
It always helps if the composer can stay out of the haggling and let someone else be 
the bad guy. D


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## Jimbo 88 (May 11, 2013)

> How did things end up playing out for you Passenger57? Swimmingly, I hope...
> Everything is still in progress and/or postponed, nothing new to report yet. In the meantime I decided to take a month off to recalibrate. Feels good. Am thinking of switching careers to become a key maker or grave digger, haha



[/quote]
That's another thing...another reason i never like to say no to projects. Producers come to you with a schedule and rarely does it get followed. So when it looks like too many projects come together at one time, just wait awhile and watch something get pushed back. It seems to work out (well most of the time).

It seems like it don't take much for someone to move a date, but as a composer don't dare to change a deadline for any reason.


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