# Ditching an agency - one of the big 4



## Ashermusic (Sep 27, 2010)

booboo @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> Just wanted to put the feeler out there....
> 
> I'm at one of the bigger composer agencies in town (there are REALLY only the 4 - GSA, Kraft/Engel, FAM, SMA).
> 
> ...



Mike Gorfaine is a friend of mine. He once told me that all an agent can really do is capitalize on it if you get hot, they cannot generate jobs for you if not, and I believe it based on having had agents at various times and observing my friends.

Otherwise, an entertainment attorney can do your contract negotiations for a lot less.


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## José Herring (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm with a smaller agency and I'm not sure it's that much different.

I've got a few friends that between them span the big 4 you mentioned and they all say the same things. Namely that the agent doesn't really get you work. And this is coming specifically from a composer that is consistently in the b.o. top 10 at least once or twice a year. So if he's saying that then I can feel your pain if you're not one of the heavy weights. 

That being said I'm not so sure going without a rep is all that wise. I just think you perhaps need to be a little more the chief work getter for yourself until perhaps you're credits are so big that they all by themselves draw people towards you. But even then, I've been at the studio of one of the top guys and have always been shocked at how much time he spends on the phone hustling up work for himself. 

I think that being with a big agency can be of benefit if you look at it from a different view point. Look at it as a selling point rather than you hiring them to get you work. Include it in your pitch if it will open a door or two. I think this especially applies to music supervisors who may be screening submissions.


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## mverta (Sep 27, 2010)

I've had meetings at The Big 4, and every one of them was decent enough to echo what Gorfaine said - it's not about getting you gigs, it's about, I dunno, "massaging" what relationships you already have. But if you have an attorney, the Bad Cop role is likely already filled. I have one of the most well-respected attorneys in the business, so I've never had/needed an agent. Yet?


_Mike


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## poseur (Sep 27, 2010)

i have a "big 4" agent, as well.
i'm not an A-list guy, have only done 2 (3?) studio films,
but quite a few cool-ish independents.

previously, i was at another of these so-called "big 4";
i didn't mind not being pitched by them, so much,
but was very dissatisfied w/their support & _business_ follow-up.

i do get pitched for films by my agency, now, though,
and, they are very handy when i generate interest, on my own.....
they do know an awful lotta peoples.

i also have a top entertainment lawyer, who has been my friend & supporter
for a long time;
i'm relatively satisfied with these ongoing relationships.

it does seem to help to have
some of your music being temp'ed into new productions,
& have just enough of an ear-to-the-ground to discover such things
before composers are being sought.

best,
d


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## booboo (Sep 27, 2010)

poseur @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> previously, i was at another of these so-called "big 4";
> i didn't mind not being pitched by them, so much,
> but was very dissatisfied w/their support & _business_ follow-up.


This is totally what I'm talking about. If I can't even get the agent to negotiate more money in the creative or really follow up on payment schedule, what good are they??

This ain't my first rodeo, as they say...I don't expect them do magically make a career happen, but I what to feel like they're at least contributing in some way...haha.

I have heard (not first hand) an A-list composers advice - "don't bother with an agent until they're calling you". I'm wondering if that's sound advice...


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## poseur (Sep 27, 2010)

booboo @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> This is totally what I'm talking about. If I can't even get the agent to negotiate more money in the creative or really follow up on payment schedule, what good are they??


agreed.
if the agent isn't present enough to follow-through on the business-side,
i can't imagine a reason to stay w/them.....
so long as leaving them doesn't threaten to damage you, in some way.



booboo @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> This ain't my first rodeo, as they say...I don't expect them do magically make a career happen, but I what to feel like they're at least contributing in some way...haha.





booboo @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> I have heard (not first hand) an A-list composers advice - "don't bother with an agent until they're calling you". I'm wondering if that's sound advice...


it may well be, i dunno.
personally, i like having an agent, at the moment;
because i'm now (finally) seeing much more business-like follow-through, at very least,
and that's been consistent.

d


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## anogo (Sep 28, 2010)

Really interesting thread. I wish I had something constructive to add.


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## kid-surf (Oct 20, 2010)

Ditto everything that was said...I had a few agent meetings and was met with the same info mentioned.

That's when I went off and wrote some screenplays and turned into a screenwriter/tv show creator/producer (at least on paper, we're still fussing with the show and some feature stuff). I just got word today, actually, that two hot showrunners from a show I totally respect like my show, want to meet and possibly attach.

But from the flip side, and btw I ended up represented by one of the bigs in the actor/director/screenwriter world: I was SHOCKED by how much agents do for you on this side of the fence compared to composer agents. It's a totally different world. They make calls, put me in rooms, hold my hand through stuff, fight for more money, shit just kinda magically happens so long as I do my part. I'll get a call "so and so likes your script, they wanna meet with you" - "so and so wants to attach" - "you have a choice of producers to work with, several companies are interested" - "me and agent X are putting together a plan of attack" - "we sent your work to these people ____" - "We're gonna try to get you more money up front" that kinda thing. It's fucking weird coming from the composer world where I'm used to the same stuff you guys are talking about. I'm a nobody screenwriter (maybe about to be a somebody, we'll see) but I've met with many big name studio type people, and almost immediately. I have a meeting coming up with one of the hardest dudes to please in Hollywood in order to pitch a big feature film idea. There's no way in hell I'd be dealing with the same companies as a composer.

It's startling how different it is on this side of the fence. On this side of the fence the work speaks for itself (mostly), it's not so much about credits, relatively speaking. 

Thought I'd add an alternative POV to this thread. I don't really understand what composer agents do. In the screenwriting world they can capitalize on the material. It's a shame composer agents can't say "listen to this guys work, he's really fucking good so you should hire him" and then have that composer be taken seriously based on his skills as a composer as opposed to how fancy his credit are.


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## kid-surf (Oct 20, 2010)

To respond to the question posed "should you leave?":

In my world, since I'm a nobody, the fact that I'm with such a powerhouse agency helps me tremendously. People hear who I'm with and assume my work is, perhaps, better than some people from other agencies (and maybe it is, Idunno). But I've literally been told, more than twice "I trust your agent's taste, your work went to the top of my stack."

That's worth something. So the question I have is: Does who your repped by add any clout to your pitch for gigs? Does it make people assume you're to a certain level? If I had no agent it would be nearly impossible to convince people that my work is good, it's THAT important I have an agent.

I've also heard this: "It's more important who your agent is until you're more important than your agent."


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## Ashermusic (Oct 20, 2010)

kid-surf @ Wed Oct 20 said:


> To respond to the question posed "should you leave?":
> 
> In my world, since I'm a nobody, the fact that I'm with such a powerhouse agency helps me tremendously. People hear who I'm with and assume my work is, perhaps, better than some people from other agencies (and maybe it is, Idunno). But I've literally been told, more than twice "I trust your agent's taste, your work went to the top of my stack."
> 
> ...



It does not work that way with composer's agents. All they want to know is what you have scored that is in the marketplace making a lot of money.


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## kid-surf (Oct 25, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Oct 20 said:


> kid-surf @ Wed Oct 20 said:
> 
> 
> > To respond to the question posed "should you leave?":
> ...




I know. Totally lame. And anti-productive. 

I have kind of an important meeting in the AM...couple of big showrunners are determining whether or not to attach to my show. I'm trying to decide how to approach the subject of the composer. I feel like I deserve (since I created the show - and am a decent enough composer myself) to make those calls. And suddenly things get a little political I'm betting. I need to call my agent for some advice...

I'm trying to lookout for composers the best I can and not help to facilitate the assbackwards view of composers and their skills only being credit based. I mean, I don't have a ton of leverage at this point but I do have more than none. We shall see...


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## Ashermusic (Oct 26, 2010)

booboo @ Mon Oct 25 said:


> Hey kid,
> 
> Don't even mention composers at tomorrows meeting. If the showrunners are the real deal, they won't give a crap about composers at this stage (unless it's a mx centric show - glee, etc).
> I don't want to be a dick, but you will not get to choose the composer. Even if they let you 'choose', you'll have to go through so many 'studio approval' departments and processes that you 'choosing' your composer is more of an illusion.
> ...



Booboo is correct.


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## kid-surf (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks for the thoughts! Although, I was a little late and only saw them after the meeting.

These showrunners are in demand and can pretty much pick and chose what they want to do around town, they're "hot". The real deal, no question. Our meeting was at Paramount.

Lucky for me I'm only half retarded and didn't bring up composers. A lotta things sound good in rehearsing meetings then you get in the room and it all goes out the window with so many people in the room. 

In that direction: They (showrunners) did ask me my backstory which gave me an opportunity to bring up composing. So, they do know that this is a skill/sensibility I'm organically bringing to the table, though it wasn't specifically discussed beyond the idea that it's rare.

Otherwise, the meeting went very well (it seems). They said straight out "we are sent a lot of material and we hate most of it...however we became very excited after reading your pilot, we loved it!" I was shocked by how much good stuff they had to say about it. They described my show to me as being somewhere between ____ (the show they're known for) and Sopranos. Which was super cool, because that's where I see it too, and it feels great being validated by talented veterans at the top of their game whom you deeply respect. Oh...and we talked about casting and they felt we could probably get a big name...they said...with so many feature people wanting to dip their toe in high quality cable. I was a little embarrassed to say who I liked for the lead even though they asked for my "perfect world" pick. They then reminded me that they like to shoot high.

I don't have the official word but they (we all) spoke in the meeting as if they were already attacò2›   í;¨2›   í;©2›   í;ª2›   í;«2›   í;¬2›   í;­2›   í;®2›   í;¯2›   í;°2›   í;±2›   í;²2›   í;³2›   í;´2›   í;µ2›   í;¶2œ   í;·2œ   í;¸2œ   í;¹2œ   í;º2œ   í;»2œ   í;¼2œ   í;½2œ   í;¾2œ   í;¿2œ   í;À2œ   í;Á2œ   í;Â2œ   í;Ã2œ   í;Ä2œ   í;Å2œ   í;Æ2œ   í;Ç2œ   í;È2œ   í;É2œ   í;Ê2œ   í;Ë2œ   í;Ì2œ   í;Í2œ   í;Î2œ   í;Ï2œ   í;Ð2œ   í;Ñ2œ   í;Ò2œ   í;Ó2œ   í;Ô2œ   í;Õ2œ   í;Ö2œ   í;×2œ   í;Ø2œ   í;Ù2œ   í;Ú2   í;Û2   í;Ü2   í;Ý2   í;Þ2   í;ß2   í;à2   í;á2   í;â2   í;ã2   í;ä2   í;å2   í;æ2   í;ç2   í;è2   í;é2   í;ê2   í;ë2   í;ì2   í;í2   í;î2   í;ï2   í;ð2   í;


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## booboo (Oct 30, 2010)

kid-surf @ Tue Oct 26 said:


> one thing I notice is that it's WAY easier to get your agents on the phone when important people are calling about you.



Of course that's true - at that point it has nothing to do with the agent, your basically being 'called' by the 'important people'....the agent is just a Voice mail service at that point...

Anyway, I've decided to leave the agent, which I think I might be doing at the end of this week or so....They haven't shown any interest in me and my career and just collect when they can. I'm embarrassed to say this, even though I'm anonymous, that while I'm finishing a pretty cool film with a decent budget for a major studio (they didn't have anything to do with me getting on it), the only call I've gotten from them in the last 8 months was last week when they asked about my interest in "a student film that has some money".....That's it. I'm out.


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## Brian Ralston (Nov 3, 2010)

kid-surf @ Wed Nov 03 said:


> I get offered better stuff than that by filmmakers contacting ME to score their stuff. Ironically, I get more inquiries now that I'm NOT composing anymore. Like one every month or so. Which seems pretty high for incoming inquiries. It used to be like 2 a year...and usually no budget.



And you always tell them, "I have a friend named Brian Ralston who might be able to help you out."...right? Right? 



kid-surf @ Wed Nov 03 said:


> Some of these things have a little money to play with, but obviously not huge money. I would pass this stuff along to pals if the money and films were better.



When one has just bought a house and gone through a wedding like Heather and I have...anything with any money is usually something not to pass up. Unless the scheduling doesn't work out. Being busy is also a good thing. :wink: :wink:


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## Ashermusic (Nov 3, 2010)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Nov 03 said:


> kid-surf @ Wed Nov 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I get offered better stuff than that by filmmakers contacting ME to score their stuff. Ironically, I get more inquiries now that I'm NOT composing anymore. Like one every month or so. Which seems pretty high for incoming inquiries. It used to be like 2 a year...and usually no budget.
> ...



Why would he possibly recommend Brain Ralston when he can recommend his close personal friend and inspiration Jay Asher, who is a MUCH better composer. :twisted:


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## sweetbaysims (Nov 7, 2010)

This is a great thread. I'm at the opposite side of the spectrum and figured this would be a good place to poll...

My writing partner and I are at the beginning of our journey into the world of writing for film. We've had some luck, placing a few "sound-a-likes" and source cues for a few studio releases and we're considering taking some meetings at agencies.

Our main concern, is having someone in our corner for the legal and "red-tape" aspects of the industry. From what I've gathered from this thread, most would argue a good lawyer is far more beneficial than a good agent...yes? We recently had a dispute with Music Supervisor when we re-delivered stems and felt a bit overwhelmed when it came down to ownership/licensing....no fun.

It was also mentioned, that an agent on the writing/acting side is vastly different than on the composer side of things. My wife is a Casting Director and she deals with agents that often handle legal, contract terms and provide that "hand holding" than was mentioned earlier in the thread. 

Am I right in assuming that we'd be wasting our time with an agency at this stage in our career? We're NOT "hot" nor are we in any position to score a film, but want to make sure we're making the best next steps and having someone who may find a new project for us would also be nice.

Hopefully this is still in the spirit of the thread...I greatly appreciate any input.

Many Thanks


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## Brian Ralston (Nov 7, 2010)

sweetbaysims @ Sun Nov 07 said:


> Am I right in assuming that we'd be wasting our time with an agency at this stage in our career? We're NOT "hot" nor are we in any position to score a film, but want to make sure we're making the best next steps and having someone who may find a new project for us would also be nice.



In my opinion...yes...it would probably not benefit you at all. Get a lawyer who will stick with you, work on a percentage...and go with that. 

First of all...if you could get one of the composer agencies to meet with you at this stage, you would be lucky. Most have spent the last few years thinning their roster...not adding to it. Film composer agents for the most part don't build anyone's career...as it has been said...they pretty much massage already existing careers. The time for an agent is when they are calling you. And if your name is hot enough...they will find a way to call you. I use to be at ICM...never got one gig initiated from them. Not one. Everything I got back them was my own work and relationships at the time and I called them to tell them about it. And they barely even followed up. Don't get me wrong. I don't think composer agents are useless at all. I think they are valuable. Just valuable at a certain point in one's career. They are hard working good people and are working client relationships in a industry environment that is more challenging than ever. If you are not working on a network show or studio level film (and I am not talking about getting a cue licensed on one...but actually being the lead composer on the payroll of one)...then getting represented by a composer agent is probably not a realistic expectation. You "might" get a "meeting" if you approach it right...but getting signed is a whole other ballgame.


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## midphase (Nov 26, 2010)

Hello Charlie,

Good to have you around here. I'm sure your insight coming from the more industrial-electronic NIN sound will be a welcome addition to this forum...I hope you'll stick around!


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## bdr (Nov 26, 2010)

hey charlie, thanks for posting and giving us your inside sc(p)oop!


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## charlieclouser (Nov 27, 2010)

I re-read the posts in this thread and was amazed at how universal the opinion is that "agents don't get you work, they just maintain the relationships you already have"... My experience has been the opposite. The only relationship I broght to the table was with the director of the first feature I did - I wound up doing two more for him and many sequels to the first one we did, but those were all with different directors. The producers of all the sequels were the same, but I barely know those guys at all; I've probably been in the same room as them three times in my life.

My agents ABSOLUTELY got me jobs. Both of my network TV series as well as one feature per year on average, which is all I had time for while doing two series, and these were all studio pictures. In each situation (including both my series), I was going in completely cold, not knowing a single person in the room.

If someone doesn't get you jobs, but just maintains the relationships you have built, where I come from we call that person a manager.

A band has a manager and a booking agent. The manager manages your career across the long term, whereas the booking agent books you individual gigs or tours. 

The "big 4" line about "we are here to accentuate relationships, not find you jobs" is just more double-talk from skeevy fuckers who probably already have too many clients for the gigs they have access to - they're trying to get everyone to believe that line so that when they can't get you work they think they have an excuse. I call bullshit.

What the hell is an agent? A BOOKING agent. Put jobs in the book, or don't get your ten percent. 

My agents get work. They introduce me to new clients that I'd have no way of getting in touch with otherwise. THEY are the ones who have "relationships", and they use those relationships to create new opportunities for me and their other clients. They don't put me up for every single gig in town, but when there's something in the production pipeline that could be a good fit for my limited abilities, they make sure I get to meet with the creatives to see if sparks fly. They get me in the room with the folks, and then it's up to me to talk my way into the gig. One thing to keep in mind about smaller agencies is that I'm not in competition with their other clients as much as I might be at a firm with a bigger list. They don't have multiple copies of me on their roster...

Scary how some of the big guys have succeeded in changing the perception of what their responsibilities should be... Sounds like they'd rather be managers!

(At least until they found out how much work that entails...)


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## JFB (Nov 28, 2010)

A rather nefarious practice takes place among some agents for actors and I wonder if the same thing happens with composers. Sometimes an agency will sign an actor much like someone they already have who is already booking just to keep the new actor out of circulation for as long as possible. When the new actor inquires as to why they aren't getting auditions, etc. they get lines like "uh...we need new head shots", "so many actors, so few parts" and so on.

This is what Charlie's description of being put on "page 9" at Gorfain sounded like to me.


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## midphase (Nov 28, 2010)

charlieclouser @ Sat Nov 27 said:


> I re-read the posts in this thread and was amazed at how universal the opinion is that "agents don't get you work, they just maintain the relationships you already have"... My experience has been the opposite. ...
> 
> My agents ABSOLUTELY got me jobs.




Thank you for saying this, I've always wondered about it myself...I mean WTF is an agent good for if not to get you work?

I think the reality is that most agents tend to cater to the 10% of their client roster which they feel is worth pushing hard, while they tend to pretty much ignore the rest. So if you're a hot name, then you will get the meetings and the agents will capitalize on you...if on the other hand you're not a bankable commodity, they will give you the runaround that that old line that you mentioned above.


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## José Herring (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks for sharing Charlie. I have an agent and have always wondered what the heck is going on over there. Looks like I need to be a little more pushy.

Jose


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## kid-surf (Nov 29, 2010)

Charlie - Thanks for the insight...was curious what path you took after NIN. Glad to hear that your agents did something for you. And I liked the story about the agent who called trying to poach you...what a dick that guy. Isn't it great how so many in this town don't believe in you until after they see you as the "sure thing" donkey they can ride to the bank. I plan to have the same phone call with someone later on down the line. 

Btw - Let's say hypothetically that my show gets greenlit to pilot, obviously we'd need a composer to score the pilot. I dig (the fuck outta) your music, also as a fan of NIN (and heavier darker music in general, as I come from the rock/heavier world...so there's that language we have in common). What are the odds of us getting you to score the pilot in that hypothetical scenario? Or is the composer in TV signed onto the series if he is to do any work as the composer. I don't know much about how TV works, the deals etc. And/or are you interested in doing more than one show at a time...I see you don't like a staff of composers. Just, if things went, I think you might like my show...it's a little darker at times but leaves room for some really cool stuff. Both sadistic and/or beautiful moments. (It's cable...which may not be what your interested in money wise). I'm rambling, but just curious as to what your thoughts are, in general, as to how to proceed etc if things got to that point. Do I bring your name up to the team and ask my agents to set a meeting with you...send you the script, gifts, what?

All hypothetical to this point...which is the reason I didn't PM you asking this question.


*I know Thomas Newman did the title track for Six Feet Under. I'm thinking maybe you could do the same thing for my show if we get to that point, and/or if you're even interested/have time/deal looks nice etc.

Thoughts? Thanks...

Btw - sometimes I like to talk about this shiz with other creative people without all the suit peeps getting in the way of shooting the shit. (sometimes I feel like they like to keep the creatives separated...anyway.)


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## kid-surf (Nov 29, 2010)

Hey poser...where did your post go???? No poaching allowed amongst composers. Got it!


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## midphase (Nov 29, 2010)

kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> Point being: I don't think it would be fair to say that an agent should ever have to "get" you work, merely put you in the position of having opportunities to land work...should you deliver on the meetings etc.




Rightso! Unfortunately most agents don't even do that! They merely want to relegate themselves to the "deal making" part, when it's already been determined that you got the gig.

And of course...before that...most (99.9999%) of the agencies simply won't even take you on unless you have a pretty recognizable credit or two under your belt (i.e. wide theatrical).


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## poseur (Nov 29, 2010)

my own "big 4" _(uhhh, whatever.....)_ agent has definitely gotten me into meetings i wouldn't have known about.....
based, of course, on the music of _mine_ + press-packet that he's already delivered to the client,
along with the twaddle of whatever reputation i might have already projected;
and whose final hiring-success depends nearly completely upon my meeting _going well_.....
which meeting my agent never attends, and for good (creative) reasons, afaic.

i think i totally understand charlie's anger & virulent reactions
towards the lyingness, laziness & sliminess
of some of these "big4" agents who'd approached him, but.....
i gotta say --- let's be frank, here --- that

a) "loyalty", "hard work", "effective work" & "lack of slime" have not necessarily
proven to be credos-in-regular action at the smaller agencies;
indeed, *i kinda believe it's all the same, across the board*, somehow.....
dependent only upon the proof provided by our _personal experiences_
with the actuality of the actions taken by the distinctly & individually responsible parties.
me, myself?
i have been either screwed-over and/or dicked-with by some of these smaller agencies,
especially where another of the agent's clients
--- a client more important to that agent,
regardless of his or her creative vibe/suitability for the project-in-question ---
had something agendic at stake.
not pretty, really.
sliminess, in all its shiny & simultaneously skanky quasi-glory.

to whit?
c) most of these agencies seem to swim/flounder in their
(sometimes quiet, or barely suppressed) desires
to _topple_ one of those big4,
precisely so that they might/maybe/could slip-slide into the then-unoccupied slot,
regardless of any high-falutin' & emotionally-charged philosophising they may otherwise have verbally emitted.

and?

b) the phrase *^^^that's emboldened above^^^*
may prove _even more true_ for those of us
who start this career w/o benefit of a previously industry-"sexy",
limelighted music (or, film) career,
and the connections & heat that might be seen as attendant-to-same;
i wish i didn't believe that, but..... i think it's at least a _moderately_ suitable truism.

not so different from the "independents" in the music industry, imo & ime,
who often act as badly (or, worserer than) the "majors" did/do,
in hopes that they, too, may one day walk in that green-and-gold-encrusted light of fame & well-publicised glory.
ha!
whatever.

anyways: just rambling.
welcome to vi-c, cc!
seriously.
dude.

d


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## booboo (Nov 30, 2010)

kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> What are the odds of us getting you to score the pilot in that hypothetical scenario? Or is the composer in TV signed onto the series if he is to do any work as the composer. I don't know much about how TV works, the deals etc. And/or are you interested in doing more than one show at a time...I see you don't like a staff of composers. Just, if things went, I think you might like my show...it's a little darker at times but leaves room for some really cool stuff. Both sadistic and/or beautiful moments. Do I bring your name up to the team and ask my agents to set a meeting with you...send you the script, gifts, what?
> 
> Btw - sometimes I like to talk about this shiz with other creative people without all the suit peeps getting in the way of shooting the [email protected]#t. (sometimes I feel like they like to keep the creatives separated...anyway.)



Dude....really?????


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## poseur (Dec 1, 2010)

kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> Hey poser...where did your post go???? No poaching allowed amongst composers. Got it!


ha!
10mins after i wrote it, i nuked it.....
it seemed kinda pointless, kinda tawdry.....
oh, well!
that describes me pretty well, anyways!
a pointless, tawdry poser.

d


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## kid-surf (Dec 2, 2010)

booboo @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > What are the odds of us getting you to score the pilot in that hypothetical scenario? Or is the composer in TV signed onto the series if he is to do any work as the composer. I don't know much about how TV works, the deals etc. And/or are you interested in doing more than one show at a time...I see you don't like a staff of composers. Just, if things went, I think you might like my show...it's a little darker at times but leaves room for some really cool stuff. Both sadistic and/or beautiful moments. Do I bring your name up to the team and ask my agents to set a meeting with you...send you the script, gifts, what?
> ...



Really what?


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## kid-surf (Dec 2, 2010)

poseur @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey poser...where did your post go???? No poaching allowed amongst composers. Got it!
> ...



No nukes allowed, this is (fukking) America!

Damn, I meant "poseur"...my bad-ness.


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## kid-surf (Dec 2, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Point being: I don't think it would be fair to say that an agent should ever have to "get" you work, merely put you in the position of having opportunities to land work...should you deliver on the meetings etc.
> ...



I know, it sucks. But I think most of the blame goes to producers and studios since they often use their eyes (credits) instead of ears to contract a composer. People are fukking stupid when it comes to music, they often don't know good from not.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 3, 2010)

booboo @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > What are the odds of us getting you to score the pilot in that hypothetical scenario? Or is the composer in TV signed onto the series if he is to do any work as the composer. I don't know much about how TV works, the deals etc. And/or are you interested in doing more than one show at a time...I see you don't like a staff of composers. Just, if things went, I think you might like my show...it's a little darker at times but leaves room for some really cool stuff. Both sadistic and/or beautiful moments. Do I bring your name up to the team and ask my agents to set a meeting with you...send you the script, gifts, what?
> ...



Well, thanks for being interested in my "work" (cough). Currently I'm blissfully unemployed... no shows on the air, no movies in the inbox, studio all disassembled, and I'm planning on spending the spring and summer farting around Europe. I guess I'll be sniffing around for a new series for next season, but after seven years of double and triple-stacking the jobs I don't mind being jobless for a year or two... maybe by the time I need to be up and running again Logic 10, LightPeak, and terabyte SSD drives will hit the ground!

It's certainly not out of line to mention to showrunners that you have certain composers in mind, but everyone's opinions can change pretty quickly once you're cutting a pilot and are laying music against picture for a temp score. Once it's time to build a temp, feel free to contact my people at http://www.evolutionmusicpartners.com/ and I'm sure they'll send over a shedload of my stuff so you can see how my tones might look against your picture.

So far I've never gotten involved in projects until there was picture (and usually a temp score) to work against.... nothing I've ever done after reading a script but before it's been shot has ever been used, though it may have helped to solidify my relationship with the parties involved.

That said, the couple of gigs I was up for but didn't get wound up going to the guys who scored the pilot or perhaps did spec cues for the temp score.... so getting in early has certainly worked for some folks in the past.


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## booboo (Dec 4, 2010)

kid-surf @ Thu Dec 02 said:


> booboo @ Tue Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > kid-surf @ Mon Nov 29 said:
> ...


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u  œ   ƒ
Þ  œ   ƒ—  œ   ƒ®  œ   „MÇ  œ   „Mñ  œ   „ƒÑ  œ   „ƒð  œ   „Œó  œ   „  œ   „Ž  œ   „Žd  œ   „º  œ   „ž  œ   ˆ•…  œ   ˆ•Æ  œ   ‰ýY  œ   ‰ý«  œ   ‰ÿD  œ   ‰ÿ–  œ   ŠÔ™  œ   ŠÔ¹  œ   {  œ   µ  œ   Š—  œ   ‹0  œ   Ã§  œ   Ã·  œ   /÷  œ   0  œ   ’Ä¡  œ   ”8ü  œ   ”Ud  œ   ”Ur  œ   ”ˆÌ  œ   ”‰ƒ  œ   ”û?  œ   ”ûb  œ   •}ò  œ   •~ƒ  œ   •ªc  œ   •ª”  œ   •Â„  œ   •Ã  œ   •ò


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## charlieclouser (Dec 4, 2010)

booboo @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> Clouser - That's interesting that you like Evo. Seth is really kind, seemingly genuine guy (I don't know Christine). I've heard both positive /negative experiences, but that's everywhere obviously. I know another guy who is pretty successful who likes it over there as well.



Yeah, Seth is a "mensch" in the best sense of the word. Just a nice, genuine guy who tells it like it is... in both directions. He won't inflate my ego by telling me I should be doing the next Bond film (clearly I shouldn't), and likewise won't do my career the disservice of telling producers or directors that I should be doing the next Bond film. He's been at this long enough to know where he and his clients can fit in to the food chain, and that's a valuable thing.

I had worked with Seth for some years before Christine came into the picture as a partner, and what she brings to the table is a strong background in licensing and a different set of connections... She's a bit more of a high-energy personality, which complements Seth's mellow attitude well. 

I can get either one of them on the phone on the first try. No call-you-back-next-week stuff.

As to the above forum-based solicitation, I refer any and all discussions of work to the agency filter, without exception. I don't care if Barbara Broccoli herself would drunkenly slur into my ear that I'm the guy for the next Bond film, I'd have her call the agency and let them figure out whether it's BS or not... or whether the Bond franchise has run out of money and that's the only reason she'd say that to me.

That's a big part of what agencies are for, in my opinion. I wouldn't know an opportunity if it ran me down in the street.

I can't tell an opportunity from an obstacle.

They can.


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## kid-surf (Dec 7, 2010)

charlieclouser @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> As to the above forum-based solicitation, I refer any and all discussions of work to the agency filter, without exception. I don't care if Barbara Broccoli herself would drunkenly slur into my ear that I'm the guy for the next Bond film, I'd have her call the agency and let them figure out whether it's BS or not... or whether the Bond franchise has run out of money and that's the only reason she'd say that to me.
> 
> That's a big part of what agencies are for, in my opinion. I wouldn't know an opportunity if it ran me down in the street.
> 
> ...



Hey man, sorry to have offended your sensibilities if that's how you took it. Promise, you don't have to worry about me bringing the show up again to you. Not how I roll.


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## poseur (Dec 7, 2010)

kid,
i kinda understood from whence boo-boo was coming, myself;
i had a similar, if not quite committed, initial reaction.

then, i thought about it, and thought way better of it, and much less of my initial reaction:
it was totally straightforward!,
you had no social reservations about your enthusiasm, at all.

would it have been more discreet to simply PM cc?
well..... yeah, i suppose so.....

{imagine if cc had responded to you in a more positively engaging way,
requesting specific details about the show, both creatively & business-wise,
here on the forum..... rather than taking it to a private chat:
it would certainly have felt, at best, uncomfortable for those not involved.....
this is why g-d invented PM's, the telefon, email & etc.
(i ignore the facebook/twitter paradigm here, for obvious reasons.....)}

in any case?
i figured out, pretty quickly, that i actually applaud your boldness;
it may be "indiscreet" in some ways, yeah:
but,
unreserved enthusiasm & sincere fanhood+respect don't smell much like 
what i know of hellywood, to date.

d


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 7, 2010)

Hey Kid,

Since when do you let one or two replies dictate what you should and shouldn't post on VI? Offer away, man! You've been here long enough to know that there are very, very few 'rules' here.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 7, 2010)

[strike]iKd Surf has said nothing here that I find offensive. Anyway, since when do people here worry about offending others? 

Jason, we do not always agree but roll the way you roll, baby[/strike].

I wrote this before his latest rants.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 7, 2010)

kid-surf @ Tue Dec 07 said:


> charlieclouser @ Sat Dec 04 said:
> 
> 
> > As to the above forum-based solicitation, I refer any and all discussions of work to the agency filter, without exception. I don't care if Barbara Broccoli herself would drunkenly slur into my ear that I'm the guy for the next Bond film, I'd have her call the agency and let them figure out whether it's BS or not... or whether the Bond franchise has run out of money and that's the only reason she'd say that to me.
> ...



Don't sweat it. My sensibilities aren't offended, nor do I think it's a breach of forum (or professional) protocol... I just wanted to bring up that with me eventually everything goes "through channels" to be vetted by those with more experience in such matters. I often meet and talk to creatives on my own, but sooner or later the agents get in on the conversation, since they have the contacts, experience, and resources to research and evaluate potential projects and give me their opinion.... another reason they are valuable to me - second opinion. They can judge the magnitude and feasibility of potential projects far better than I ever will be able to. Besides, showrunners and studio execs often have their own favorite composers that they've been waiting for the right project to bring them in on... so in the end I'm in competition with that crew as well.

Also, since I was formerly a wholly-owned subsidiary of a popular rock band that, at the time, had a rabid fanbase and a North Korea-style embargo on public comms and press, which meant that I was often approached by people with projects, demo tapes, songs wanting remixes, etc., I became well-trained to refer incoming requests to the home office in Cleveland. Old habits die hard!

So don't sweat it. No harm, no foul.

As your project takes shape, absolutely contact my agency and they will instantly unleash a deluge of my material for you to peruse.


----------



## kid-surf (Dec 7, 2010)

charlieclouser @ Tue Dec 07 said:


> kid-surf @ Tue Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > charlieclouser @ Sat Dec 04 said:
> ...



Don't sweat it. My sensibilities aren't offended, nor do I think it's a breach of forum (or professional) protocol... I just wanted to bring up that with me eventually everything goes "through channels" to be vetted by those with more experience in such matters. I often meet and talk to creatives on my own, but sooner or later the agents get in on the conversation, since they have the contacts, experience, and resources to research and evaluate potential projects and give me their opinion.... another reason they are valuable to me - second opinion. They can judge the magnitude and feasibility of potential projects far better than I ever will be able to. Besides, showrunners and studio execs often have their own favorite composers that they've been waiting fò  ´   VèF  ´   W-â  ´   W.  ´   W¹ª  ´   Wº  ´   WºÑ  ´   W»6  ´   Xi  ´   X¹  ´   XU  ´   XU  ´   YË  ´   Y   ´   Y)  ´   Y‡  ´   YŸa  ´   Y J  ´   [qý  ´   [r|  ´   [¬Å  ´   [­&  ´   [®Ú  ´   [¯  ´   \€Â  ´   \€ø  ´   \´  ´   \æ  ´   ] •  ´   ]’  ´   _Ñ5  ´   _ÑÕ  ´   _Üy  ´   _Ü¾  ´   _áƒ  ´   _â  ´   _ó¬  ´   _ô"  ´   `¬Ù  ´   `­  ´   `¶  ´   `¶8  ´   a}û  ´   a~  ´   báÂ  ´   bâ  ´   cŒY  ´   cŒs  ´   dO‡  ´   dO‘  ´   d_r  ´   d_—  ´   ed   ´   ed)  ´   egÃ  ´   egä  ´   e{7  ´   e{Z  ´   e¹ß  ´   eº  ´   h¢b  ´   h¢Ž  ´   iFœ  ´   iGŠ  ´   iÛÐ  ´   iÜ$  ´   j”  ´   j´  ´   k<c  ´   k<|  ´   lz  ´   lz¬  ´   l†ÿ  ´   l‡  ´   mpK  ´   mpi  ´   m„[  ´   m„×  ´   m¥”  ´   m¥³  ´   mÚ  ´   mÚA  ´   mÚ¡  ´   mÚô  ´   má  ´   máv  ´   o$¨  ´   o%#  ´   p!ô  ´   p#  ´   p†·  ´   p†Á  ´   p‡  ´   p‡0  ´   qô¸  ´   qõ  ´   qöj  ´   qö¿  ´   qø$  ´   qø7  ´   qøV  ´   qø°  ´   qùÍ  ´   qúT  ´   qúú  ´   qû  ´   rÔ  ´   rô  ´   r)ö  ´   r*  ´   r+¸  ´   r+Â  ´   r-%              ò  ´   r-R  ´   r-]  ´   s!ý  ´   s"S  ´   su  ´   s‚  ´   t:Y  ´   t:Í  ´   tz9  ´   tzP  ´   t÷p  ´   t÷¿  ´   vžè  ´   vŸ
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## JohnG (Dec 8, 2010)

Rough banter and even sharp disagreements are one thing, but name-calling is not the right approach.

Penalty flag has been thrown and some of the posts -- by more than one person -- have been deleted and altered, so a full reconstruction is not possible.

We are here to be friends and professionals, and help one another, so let's bear that in mind.


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## JohnG (Dec 8, 2010)

Everyone -- that's enough. This is a good topic and I don't want to lock the thread.

Please return to the OP or at least subjects related to it, however peripherally, or we'll close it down.


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## leitmotif (Dec 8, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> ... deleted and altered, so a full reconstruction is not possible.


Just a heads up to anyone not aware. As anyone who subscribes to this forum using google reader knows, nothing gets deleted from the reader subscription - ever, as far as I know.


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## kid-surf (Dec 8, 2010)

Question:

Has anyone thought of being repped by one of the bigs like CAA, WMA etc. I know CAA do, or used to, rep Reinhold Heil & Johnny Klimek. Do they rep anyone else? With the big 4 composer agencies dropping so many people and hustling so much harder these days for a smaller pool of projects, I wonder if a viable approach is to find a young music agent at a talent agency who might try to fold you into projects the agency is packaging. (obviously it helps if you're in a successful band first)

Otherwise, this (OP) question is really: "How do I create leverage."

…That's hard to do as a composer because unlike most other above line duties your martial isn't the leverage, your credits are. The only reason the material as not leverage is because people (even industry people) don't understand what music IS, and therefore do not know how to place a "value" on it. Therefore they can't sell it/you other than as a credit. Whereas a totally unknown screenwriter can go create a show and they bring in showrunners to supervise. But isn't it interesting that the guy who created the show has the least experience and yet he's seen, in some respects, as the most important factor. But no, they don't trust any composer on that show other than someone with a sea of credits. In other words, I would not be hired to compose on my own show if I was not the creator of it. How ironic.

I think times are changing and composers who are trying to break in/up now need to at least 'think' about expanding their vocabulary. And I'm not talking about creating more styles of music and thinning yourself out, I'm talking about expanding your "value component" to MATCH what the industry is hungry for. They are packaging nearly everything these days. And as the saying goes: they don't have any money unless they love something, thenò  ¹   ë·ô  ¹   ë¼«  ¹   ë¼é  ¹   ë½7  ¹   ë½¢  ¹   ë¾ë  ¹   ë¿  ¹   ëÃþ  ¹   ëÄA  ¹   ëÄÿ  ¹   ëÅ3  ¹   ëÆï  ¹   ëÇU  ¹   ëÇ—  ¹   ëÇ¨  ¹   ëÈ(  ¹   ëÈ_  ¹   ëÌ>  ¹   ëÌ›  ¹   ëÕ6  ¹   ëÕÁ  ¹   ëÖm  ¹   ëÖ  ¹   ëØà  ¹   ëÙC  ¹   ëÜ  ¹   ëÜ.  ¹   ëád  ¹   ëáˆ  ¹   ëè4  ¹   ëèM  ¹   ëíE  ¹   ëíi  ¹   ëî±  ¹   ëï  ¹   ëð  ¹   ëð:  ¹   ëñ1  ¹   ëñ{  ¹   ëò>  ¹   ëò­  ¹   ëõÐ  ¹   ëö  ¹   ëúš  ¹   ëúº  ¹   ëúà  ¹   ëû  ¹   ëþ,  ¹   ëþ¡  ¹   ì9  ¹   ìS  ¹   ìÌ  ¹   ì  ¹   ì  ¹   ìØ  ¹   ì´  ¹   ìÈ  ¹   ì–  ¹   ì³  ¹   ì (  ¹   ì ß  ¹   ì++  ¹   ì+I  ¹   ì,9  ¹   ì,f  ¹   ì4&  ¹   ì4†  ¹   ì6ç  ¹   ì7>  ¹   ìD¾  ¹   ìDÌ  ¹   ìcž  ¹   ìc¤  ¹   ìf*  ¹   ìf]  ¹   ìj®  ¹   ìjå  ¹   ìnT  ¹   ìn^  ¹   ìqà  ¹   ìqð  ¹   ìs   ¹   ìs&  ¹   ì[email protected]  ¹   ìst  ¹   ì—Ý  ¹   ì˜  ¹   ìšž  ¹   ìš³  ¹   ì Q  ¹   ì f  ¹   ì   ¹   ì œ  ¹   ì¡w  ¹   ì¡Ú  ¹   ì¥Õ  ¹   ì¥á  ¹   ì¬Ú  ¹   ì­>  ¹   ì°Ø  ¹   ì°î  ¹   ì¸Ð  ¹   ì¸å  ¹   ìº\  ¹   ìºŒ  ¹   ìÊã  ¹   ìË;  ¹   ìË§  ¹   ìËº  ¹   ìÒ  ¹   ìÒž  ¹   ìÒô              ò  ¹   ìÛÿ  ¹   ìÜ  ¹   ìÜ;  ¹   ìÜE  ¹   ìÞT  ¹   ìÞ  ¹   ìá÷  ¹   ìâ"  ¹   ìçZ  ¹   ìço  ¹   ìéD  ¹   ìé{  ¹   ìê¤  ¹   ìë>  ¹   ìÿ&  ¹   ìÿ…  ¹   íh  ¹   í¥  ¹   í5  ¹   ío  ¹   í$î  ¹   í%  ¹   í'·  ¹   í'È  ¹   í3‘  ¹   í3·  ¹   íCa  ¹   íC¨  ¹   íEÒ  ¹   íEä  ¹   íF=  ¹   íG?  ¹   íG¥  ¹   íGµ  ¹   íJ³  ¹   íJò  ¹   íKâ  ¹   íL4  ¹   íM  ¹   íMy  ¹   íP(  ¹   íPÜ  ¹   íR?  ¹   íRý  ¹   í\ò  ¹   í]I  ¹   íaå  ¹   íb£  ¹   íhè  ¹   íi   ¹   ílÌ  ¹   ímb  ¹   ípÊ  ¹   ípú  ¹   íyF  ¹   íyt  ¹   í‰r  ¹   í‰‚  ¹   íh  ¹   í~  ¹   íŽú  ¹   í‹  ¹   í”3  ¹   í”[  ¹   í”Á  ¹   í”ë  ¹   íš#  ¹   íš¡  ¹   í¦Ÿ  ¹   í§  ¹   í©`  ¹   í©­  ¹   í­È  ¹   í®)  ¹   í®é  ¹   í¯   ¹   í±v  ¹   í±Ÿ  ¹   í¶J  ¹   í¶g  ¹   íÇ]  ¹   íÇ¼  ¹   íÈÃ  ¹   íÉ[  ¹   íÏ  ¹   íÏU  ¹   íÐH  ¹   íÐÊ  ¹   íÙÇ  ¹   íÚ2  ¹   íà  ¹   íà«  ¹   íæà  ¹   íçæ  ¹   íîü  ¹   íï)  ¹   íñM  ¹   íñn  ¹   íñ¥  ¹   íñ×  ¹   íõ#  ¹   íõ0  ¹   íü
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[+  º   SÙ  º   SÚ  º   SÛ  º   (í  º   #!  º   #*  º   %©M  º   %©X  º   )L…  º   )LŽ  º   *F  º   *Fv  º   *éô  º   *ê   º   +T«  º   +Tè  º   +U%  º   +Us  º   -]Þ  º   -^  º   .N  º   .N(  º   /üs  º   /ü  º   1ü6  º   1üg  º   KBG  º   KBæ  º   L¤^  º   L¤Î  º   L©‘  º   L©Á  º   LªD  º   Lªx  º   L®h  º   L®  º   L³ð  º   L´v  º   MŒ                                                                                                                                                                                                           ne? I came to the conclusion that I should be in on creating it in some way, first I thought about producing, which lead to writing.)

So…Why play the game going into it backwards on the back end, why not attack it from the front end? Let's say you are out there looking for projects to produce, BANG!, you find one that you feel actually stands a SERIOUS chance at taking you to the next level. You're now in on it from the beginning making, or at least helping to make those creative choices instead of hoping for those opportunities to fall in your lap byway of someone else belief that this (bad) project is good. And you, as the producer (or even creator), are now locked in as the composer. Maybe that's the film that is the hit (on some level) which leads to your increased leverage. 

Many business models are dying this decade. Maybe the old composer model will be one of them. So, what's the NEW way into this? Whatever, the point is that it's a ripe time to begin thinking OUT SIDE THE BOX. Like Hans did. 

And to a lesser extent, perhaps, like I did. Whatever, love me (or only kinda pretend to like me) or hate me, I created far more leverage for myself in two years taking this route than I could have created continuing on the path I was on for another 10 years. At this moment I stand a far better chance at scoring EXACTLY what I want to score. Isn't that the goal?

I mean sure, if your career is on the track of ascending growth and potential then maybe there's no need to change anything. But if things are stagnant, and/or lateral maybe there's better ways to spend your time that looking for the right agent. After all, that's not the best use of time for creators of product, the agents will come to you when you've created something that possesses value. Maybe your time is better spent creating value and leverage in ways most composers would not dream up. 

The #1 problem in career trajectory in this day and age is in people ass-u-me-ing they have a specific role and that lines cannot be crossed.

And if you hate my POV, no prob, ignore it and go rock this shiz. This is merely one guy's opinion on what has, so far, given me far more leverage.

Bottom line: Agents will work for you if you provide them leverage. Garner enough leverage and you get your choice of agencies and agents. And one day you are more important than your agent and suddenly agents no longer matter as much as you do, and just as suddenly they are all over you cuz they are scared you'll leave them. Which is how this thing is supposed to work...

Everything else is co-dependent...


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## JohnG (Dec 8, 2010)

there is a lot in what you say. Leverage for most composers is non-existent. Most have to rely on being great looking, intensely charming and witty, and being good bridge players.

Or similar.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 9, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> Most have to rely on being great looking, intensely charming and witty.


Damn! No wonder no one's been hiring me lately!


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## JohnG (Dec 9, 2010)

Bridge, man. It's the key to one's career. I hope.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 9, 2010)

No! If we add being able to play bridge to the mix, then that would make me 0 for 4!

:mrgreen:


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## kid-surf (Dec 9, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> there is a lot in what you say. Leverage for most composers is non-existent.



To this point, but perhaps that's the old model. When there's a will there's a way...sorta thing.



JohnG @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> Most have to rely on being great looking, intensely charming and witty, and being good bridge players.
> 
> Or similar.



Holy gosh! In that case it's EXACTLY like screenwriting.


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## kid-surf (Dec 9, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Thu Dec 09 said:


> JohnG @ Wed Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Most have to rely on being great looking, intensely charming and witty.
> ...



See, I would have thought you'd be booked solid! You have a poor self image, Mike, geez!


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## poseur (Dec 9, 2010)

so, y'all are saying that i acquire jobs in this field
due to my good looks, my charm & my sharp-but-non-invasive wit?
'cuz, really..... i don't play bridge (nor any card-game), don't play golf.....
..... i can shoot me some pool, but have never done so w/potential employers.
hmmm.....
hmmm.

is another re-think required, on my part?
just add it to the ongoing & growing pile.

d


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## JohnG (Dec 9, 2010)

shooting pool with clients is so 90s.


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## kid-surf (Dec 9, 2010)

poseur @ Thu Dec 09 said:


> so, y'all are saying that i acquire jobs in this field
> due to my good looks, my charm & my sharp-but-non-invasive wit?
> 'cuz, really..... i don't play bridge (nor any card-game), don't play golf.....
> ..... i can shoot me some pool, but have never done so w/potential employers.
> ...



Maybe…

To be for realz yo: With my tv show the producer initially passed on it but wanted to meet me to discuss other projects. So we meet, she's a woman. After our first meeting, a week or so later, I get word that she passed it along to the studio looking to make a deal with them cuz she wanted to attach herself/the prodco.

Most of the people I'm dealing with on the tv side are women. I bet it doesn't hurt that I used to model and that I've been working out like crazy lately and don't look like a wildebeest.

For realz yo…my *image* is something I think about now. It's like, whatever, if looking cute can help at all, I'm all for it.

But I'll never be a HOTTIE like Mike. What are u gonna do???

Once you're DA MANG then you can totally let yourself go...which is kinda dope.


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## leitmotif (Dec 19, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5AObGTcUNA


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## kid-surf (Jan 3, 2011)

leitmotif @ Sun Dec 19 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5AObGTcUNA



The dudes in here know me in real life, have met my wife and have been to my house, so, they know that I'm no troll.

Otherwise, if someone I've never met goes after me on a forum, acting like an asshole out of the blue and attacking me, I'm gonna be an asshole right back…just how life works. The moderators felt that I had crossed a line and was too much of an asshole back (despite the fact that several of my comments were designed to make me laugh, and they did) so they deleted some of my posts *along with* the OP's off topic posts attacking me. The mods then asked me (and the OP) to let it go…so…I did. Then, I went back to topic talking with the people I know in real life and offering up ideas I thought might add value to this thread (for those bystanders not tangled up in the bullshit to, perhaps, have a new angle to consider), as I was over the BS regarding the dude who was an asshole (troll?). Seems logical and reasonable.

Nobody was banned, I don't know what could have given you that impression unless you know something I don't. Nor do I know what you're referring to when you mention that this 'banned' person helped you the most. I spot your two posts in this thread, neither of which ask any questions regarding the subject matter…but now you want answers? I don't get it. 

So anyway…back to agents and why they are such meanies…

ps. I really don't mind if you (or anyone else) see me as the bad guy, simply skip my posts, there's no gun to your head forcing you to read them. But I often know what I'm talking about when discussing fancy agents, I live with one.


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## JohnG (Jan 3, 2011)

Ok.

Don't want to lock the thread. Agents are an important topic. Please drop the back and forth on who was the meanest and most out of line.

Thank you


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## choc0thrax (Jan 3, 2011)

kid-surf @ Mon Jan 03 said:


> But I often know what I'm talking about when discussing fancy agents, I live with one.



Noticed your wife's name listed on this years' blacklist, that's kinda cool.


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## kid-surf (Jan 3, 2011)

Apologies John, I intended to simply explain what went down to someone who didn't understand, considering he went to all the trouble of making a video and posting it to youtube. I took/take responsibility for being the meanest, not pointing any fingers. Nor do I want to run though it all a second time. No more comments from me…



choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 03 said:


> kid-surf @ Mon Jan 03 said:
> 
> 
> > But I often know what I'm talking about when discussing fancy agents, I live with one.
> ...




Kinda cool, but kinda not. She's been on it for the last few years (maybe every year?). Personally, I feel that the list needs to have different requirements, which I'll get to in a sec. She knows the dude who started it, in fact I think he discussed it with her before he did it and I think she may have told him she felt it would be a good idea to compile a list of such properties. But…It's kind of a bullshit list when you see stuff on it that is commissioned by a big shot prodco etc. right along side a script that has nobody attached to it, not even an agent or manager. I believe a lot of people are feeling that way about the list nowadays, esp since it's been said that some agents lobby for their clients (I can only imagine brand new agents doing that, nobody established has time). Thing is, the list was never meant to be the be all end all but that's the way some less important people look at it, like it's some award or something. I don't want to put words in my wife's mouth but I would ass-u-me that she is flattered that her clients works' have been recognized as being good by the Black List but at the same time she's not all that concerned with her clients making the list, instead, she's focused on trying to aid in the projects being *produced* (i.e. "getting made") which would make the script in question ineligible to make the Black List…but would put more money in her clients pocket and raise their quote/fee.

Nobody should "want" to be on the Black List…all that means is that you're not greenlighted. Anyway, hope your stuff is coming along.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 3, 2011)

kid-surf @ Mon Jan 03 said:


> Apologies John, I intended to simply explain what went down to someone who didn't understand, considering he went to all the trouble of making a video and posting it to youtube. I took/take responsibility for being the meanest, not pointing any fingers. Nor do I want to run though it all a second time. No more comments from me…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Heh, I knew you'd say something along those lines. I think the only requirement though is that the film won't be coming out the same calendar year as the list, I don't think it means a film isn't greenlit. 

Stuff is coming along. Got sidetracked, recently spent two months filming something that should be out this fall.


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## midphase (Jan 4, 2011)

Yeah.....WHATCHATALKINABOUTCHOCO?


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## choc0thrax (Jan 4, 2011)

kid-surf @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Heh, I knew you'd say something along those lines. I think the only requirement though is that the film won't be coming out the same calendar year as the list, I don't think it means a film isn't greenlit.
> ...



Uhhh filming means... actually I'll pm you. (o)


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