# Legalities, copyright, residuals etc.... (hey Mike GreenE, Jeff C, etc)



## kid-surf (Dec 7, 2006)

---Edited for Mr. "Greene" ---- 

This is a question in regards to hiring a vocalist to sing lyrics for a spec theme song for a TV show (HBO).


My question is: Do "I" need to write the lyrics as well? I'd want to lock down as much as I could regarding residuals. What's the best way to approach a tune where you need someone else to sing it (because it's got to be a woman) but want to retain as much of the writers share as you can.

And: If you know the percentage, what would I stand to loose if I had someone else write the lyrics and sing. Is it a no brainer to write the lyrics as well?

What's your experience... I'm clueless when it comes to vocalists rights.


thanks.


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## kid-surf (Dec 7, 2006)

One more thing...


I might want to use two singers. Is that a bad idea $$$ wise. Would that make it where I'd get almost nothing?

Thanks...


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## sbkp (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Legalities, copyright, residuals etc.... (hey Mike Green, Jeff C, etc)*

My understanding of writing ownership is that lyrics are half and music is half.

As for the _performances_ I don't have any idea.


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## jc5 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Legalities, copyright, residuals etc.... (hey Mike Green, Jeff C, etc)*

If all the vocalist is doing is singing the part you have written, then it would be the same as hiring any other performer for recording purposes - a number of contract options, including the most popular/efficient, the complete buyout.

They would only get residuals if they in some way participating in the writing of lyrics and/or music, or if you wrote out your contract that way. I doubt any session singer would be expecting that though..


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## Mike Greene (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Legalities, copyright, residuals etc.... (hey Mike Green, Jeff C, etc)*

Percentages can legally be whatever all parties agree to. If your singer writes the lyric, Stefan is right that it's usually a 50/50 split for overall writers' shares. But if the lyrics are fairly inconsequential, it could be ethical to work a split more in your favor. Or if you pay her enough, she may even give you full lyric buyout as well, but that could be a little shady as far as ethics go. But then, I've been known to hire ghostwriters, so I'm in no position to cast stones. :shock: I wouldn't go that far though.

Also, the 50/50 standard is really a holdover from the days when melody and lyric were all that was considered important about a song. During my songwriting days in the 80's, often the deal was changed to 33/33/33 between melody/lyric/track because the track (beat, bassline, etc) was then so important.

If she's singing YOUR lyric, of course she gets no piece of the song, but it doesn't sound like that's your situation.

Personally, I can't stand other people writing my lyrics. I try this from time to time and they just never get it right. On the other hand, if you can't do it, then get help. And don't worry about giving up a piece of the song because HBO royalties aren't going to be that much anyway. The theme will probably pay around $10k, by the way.

Also, a bit of nit-picky terminology:

1. Royalties is what you get from ASCAP or a record company for your songwriting.

2. Residuals are union payments for reuses. We don't get those unless we sang or played and filed paperwork.

3. Greene has an "e" at the end. :mrgreen:


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## jeffc (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Legalities, copyright, residuals etc.... (hey Mike Green, Jeff C, etc)*

Kid:

I've got a bit of experience at this. Basically, if you can, you want to write the lyrics. This will eliminate any question the vocalist is just a hired session singer. That means, they get paid, but didn't write the track - you did - so you'd go on the cue sheet as writer and get all the ASCAP/BMI performance royalties. 

I'm assuming it's non-union, so if that's the case, there are no other types of royalties or re-use. If it's non-union, you can pay whatever you think is fair for the session. You can structure it so you pay for the session and if it actually gets used in the final track, maybe you pay another session fee or bonus of some sort. You should get the singer to sign a simple "work-for-hire" sheet, that basically says they didn't write the track, were paid, and have no claiim to future money. You want to have that all sorted out cause there have been several composers sued by singers for using their vocals without permission and they payouts are not good. 

I'm assuming this is a vocals with words type thing. Really the same thing applies for the 'wordless vocal thing' but it's a little more abstract since sometimes the performance is more random and improvised. You really have to protect yourself though. Basically, you want to pay singers good up front if you can.

So, if at all possible, write the track and lyrics yourself. The royalties on a theme that airs a bunch can really add up over time. If you have a lyricist, then you can determine the split. Where 50/50 is common for words / lyrics, if the lyricist isn't creating the track with you then you should have claim to a bigger chunk of the upfront fee to create the song, even if you split the AScap / Bmi 50/50 on the cue sheet.

Hope that helps - pm me if you need more.


Jeff


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## Ashermusic (Dec 8, 2006)

*Re: Legalities, copyright, residuals etc.... (hey Mike Green, Jeff C, etc)*



kid-surf @ Fri Dec 08 said:


> Thanks for the detailed info guys...! Yep that totally clears it up for me. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something. Cool, I'm totally square now.
> 
> Jeff --- Yep, I wasn't clear about about the difference in the more improvisational vocal -vs- the specific lyric thing, as I've never hired a singer. --- Although, I'm an ex-singer.  That's how I started in music, singing in rock bands -- in case you're keeping notes, which surly you are not.
> 
> ...



Kid, that's fine but IMHO don't let your pride or greed keep you from collaborating with a lyricist if he/she can write a better lyric.

Frequently when I have done a theme for a show, as I did with "Zorro", I write a lyric and ask a couple of lyricists if they would like to take a stab at it. Then I go with the best one. In the case of "Zorro" i.e. it wasn't mine.


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## kid-surf (Dec 8, 2006)

Pride? Greed? This is Hollywood.... what it it be without either? :D

But seriously, if I feel I'm ruining it by trying to craft lyrics over my head I'll pass it off to someone I feel can do a better job. But having experience in lyric writing I feel I'll be able to do a good job. It's a younger vibe. If it were sort of that melodramatic Disney vibe I would definitely look to a lyricist skilled in that style of writing. I don't believe I could do that convincingly.


Something to consider, though.... for sure.

thanks for weighing in, Jay.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 8, 2006)

kid-surf @ Fri Dec 08 said:


> Pride? Greed? This is Hollywood.... what it it be without either? :D
> 
> But seriously, if I feel I'm ruining it by trying to craft lyrics over my head I'll pass it off to someone I feel can do a better job. But having experience in lyric writing I feel I'll be able to do a good job. It's a younger vibe. If it were sort of that melodramatic Disney vibe I would definitely look to a lyricist skilled in that style of writing. I don't believe I could do that convincingly.
> 
> ...



You're welcome.

It isn't about ruining it anyway it is about having another lyric to compare yours to. Like I say, I have had experineces where in my judgment my lyric worked better and I went with it but also just the opposite. Choice is good. 

Either way good luck Tiger, go get 'em!


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## Mike Greene (Dec 8, 2006)

I think Jay makes a good point (yeah, I know it's the opposite of what I said yesterday :mrgreen: ) Getting the theme would be so cool as a credit, more so than the money. I'd be tempted to bring someone in and give them a piece of the song. But then again, I've had zero success bringing in lyricists on any TV stuff I've done, so I don't know.

Just rambling, but I guess my main point is screw the money or full ownership if that hinders you in the slightest from making your best pitch.


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## kid-surf (Dec 9, 2006)

Jay -- good point. Options. I'll definitely consider that. Thanks!


Mike -- yep, best pitch is the most important thing. Agreed.


Kays -- In band music I do listen to the lyrics but I don't like lyrics that are literal, which is why I like bands like Radiohead.  In that style of music (band music) I'm more interested in writing a good piece of music, a good melody line for the vocal, and lyrics that are more poetic but are phonetically interesting--as opposed to sounding awkward rolling off the tongue.

That's what I like in the bands I listen to as well. In other words, a cool song is a cool song. 


But.... I feel writing for a TV theme in mind is a different approach. Far less "artistic" in a sense. More so about selling the character/show, so it needs to be fairly literal. But not so much so that it doesn't sound "cool/hip/fresh/authentic".


Aside from that --- there are some music listeners out there that judge the value of a song based almost entirely on the lyrical content alone. As friggn weird as that is to me. My buddy's wife is that way. Not sure she's able to 'feel' music otherwise. Which is hard for me to imagine--being more attached to the lyrical content than the actual melody.


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