# RePieces



## re-peat (Jul 2, 2009)

Most of these pieces, except the last one, have been posted before (some in a different form though), but a few people have asked for a chance to hear them, so here they are again. They won't be online for very long though - a few days at the most - as this lot takes up way too much space on my server. Thanks for listening.

*Alju Ciba*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_AljuCiba.mp3
A piece composed for a documentary on the historic events (war with Spain, early 12th century) which led to the independence of Portugal. 

*Gypsy March*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_GypsyMarch.mp3
There's nothing 'gypsy' about this one at all, but it's got a big part for the EastWest 'Gypsy' violin, hence the title. One of my own favourites actually, this piece. One of the very few that I have no intention of redoing from scratch everytime I hear it, unlike most of my other pieces.

*ReBop*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_ReBop.mp3
Started out as an experiment with the pizzbass patch of the latest version of Synful and somehow grew into this boppy little thingy. More a rough excercise than a proper piece, but perhaps not entirely unenjoyable while it lasts. The trumpet was done with Arturia Brass (this piece dates from before 'The Trumpet' arrived on the scene) and the saxophone was emulated with Broadway Big Band.

*Sketch : Concertino for Piano and Small Orchestra*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_Concertino_Sketch.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_Conc ... Sketch.mp3)
An early sketch for a diminutive pianoconcerto, which at the moment still suffers badly from the fact that I haven't fully decided on the orchestration yet. All tracks are still in their 'midi' state, because I'm really waiting for LASS in the hope to be able to create a better string sound (which is essential in this piece). Compositionally all goes rather well, until the very end, where I suddenly run out of steam, breath and ideas. In other words: as a piece it's very unfinished, but I'm quite happy with what I've got so far.

*Trio For Piano, Clarinet and Horn*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_TrioPianoHornClarinet.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_Trio ... arinet.mp3)
Another one I'm quite pleased with: a little bit of chamber music for piano, Synful clarinet and Westgate horn. Very polite and well-behaved throughout. Needs a better ending though. In fact, it needs an ending, cause there isn't one.

*ElectroAcoustic Suite*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_SuiteElectroAcoustique.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_Suit ... stique.mp3)
Not sure what to say about this, other than that this is a pretty accurate reflection of the chaotic activity that often occurs in the musical area of my brain, but I'm still not sure if this particular piece, as a whole, works or not. Sometimes I feel it does, at other times I just want to forget all about it. But I must like it enough to include it here.

*Solo Piano 1 'Aquarel'*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_SoloPiano_01.mp3
Written for Modartt Pianoteq 3, but this is an earlier performance with the Garritan Steinway.

*Solo Piano 2 'The RS Variations'*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_SoloPiano_02.mp3
Music inspired by a theme from fellow member Roberto Sogetti. I haven't discovered too many new musical heroes over the past years, but he's certainly one of them. An exceptionnaly brilliant musician, in my opinion.

*Halloween Music*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_Halloween.mp3
Written for a short halloween film. Musically not all that interesting, I find - it's hardly more than a string of horrormusic formulas - but most people who've heard it, have always responded with a pleasant degree of appreciation. Which is why I've included it here.

*Ragtime For 6*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_RagtimeFor6.mp3
Another 'chamber music'-type piece. It's raggy enough to be called a ragtime, even though it's not really a ragtime. 
These chamber-type pieces are in fact what I like doing most of all. They always end up much closer to what I had originally in mind, then when I attempt anything 'full orchestral'. Besides: I really do like the small-scale sounds and textures of a chamber ensemble.

*Chamber Suite*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_ChamberSuite.mp3
Here's another one. A bit marred by a rather unpleasant sound, this one, I can't really recall how that happened, but when I heard earlier today, after not having listened to it for a long while, I immediately knew that it was in urgent need of a new mix.

*French Cheese*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_FrenchCheese.mp3
Something that just happened while writing something entirely different. Very lightweight (unlike most French cheese).

*Conversation for Piano and Trumpet*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_DuoTrumpetAndPiano.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_DuoT ... dPiano.mp3)
The first thing I did with SampleModeling's 'The Trumpet'. Could probably do with a few more instruments in the arrangement, but I never got around to do that.

*Sketch : Love Scene*
http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/Re_Scene.mp3
To finish: something which I've never posted before anywhere, even though it's well over 5 years old. I'm still a little hesitant to post it here and now, because the mock-up, the sound and the mix are quite primitive and amateuristic, but the music itself might just appeal to people who like filmmusic. It's a sketch for a soaring hollywood-esque big love theme, the way they used to write them a few decades ago. It's also a perfect piece, I think, to test LASS with (which I intend to do).

_


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## Niah (Jul 2, 2009)

wow thank you posting them all re-peat, finally I can save them to my HD :mrgreen:


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## Christian Marcussen (Jul 2, 2009)

Nice. The Love Scenes piece is very Goldsmithy... which as you can imagine is a compliment! I look forward to hearing it with LASS


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## sevaels (Jul 2, 2009)

Re-Peat :oops: <3


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## Stevie (Jul 2, 2009)

Piet, thanks for *Re-Posting *those. Very good stuff.


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## nikolas (Jul 2, 2009)

Re-Peat: Thanks for posting mate.

Gosh... Don't have the time to comment on everything here, but I'll try to start off with a question:

*Q:* As far as the audience know, you are a professional composer, most probably living via music, right? If so most of these pieces do not follow the classical, generic sometimes, path of film/library/whatever media music, but tend towards more contemporary circles, ideas, jazz sometimes (with freedom in mind, not in "jazz as in forms and language"). Are these pieces commissioned somehow? Were they performed somewhere? Where they used in various media? 

Because in all honesty all are fabulous piece (Except the documentary one... Too much pedal notes! :D)

_______________

Your mockup skills are admirable and it's something I doubt I can never reach. Somehow it seems that my composing side is stronger than my production side. Or maybe it's just that I get bored too easily. Or even worst that I simply don't have the skill!

But listening to that ReBob, I'm thinking "heck this is the trumpet", but it's not! It's earlier than that. But it works so fine, so well in so many levels! Then I'm comparing my usage of the trumpet with your duo (what a fabulous discussion these two are having, in semi-polytonic tendencies and ideas, with Schnittke in mind, maybe?) and mine in chocolate (or Unique, earlier on) and I'm thinking: "I suck!" 

Concertino was also quite lovely (and here I was thinking I wouldn't comment really on pieces!). Very energetic and excellent throughout. I'm also waiting on LASS for a few ideas to try out!  

You do like the Russian School of aesthetics, I gather, right? 

And while I think of that I go on to listen "French cheese" and I'm thinking to myself "Is it the same guy who composed all that?". Sfx to that one are quite fab, mon ami! 

Anyways, thank you for sharing, and thanks for introducing your music to a new fan! :D

PS. Schnittke comes to mind with your chamber music in general!


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## re-peat (Jul 2, 2009)

Niah, Christian, Sevaels, Stevie, thanks very much!

Nikolas,

Thanks very much as well. In answer to your questions: I'm only 'half a professional' musician, I suppose, because what I earn with music is just a tiny fraction of what I earn with my graphic design work. Basically, I do music because I have to. One has to eat, one has to breath, one has to love, one has to make music. It's that type of vital necessity with me, really. (Which is, I guess, also the very reason why I can get so bloody annoyed when people treat music casually or superficially.) 
But yes, I do some jobs now and then. A bit of film work, a good deal of tv-stuff and I also used to write lots of incidental music for various theatre productions (but that's a long time ago). Fortunately, I'm in that rather luxurious position not having to look for work, because I don't feel the economical urgency, but whenever something comes my way that I fancy doing, I'll do it. Happily and passionately.

The only two pieces among this selection that were comissioned, are the 'Alju Ciba' one (the 'pedal' one) and the 'Halloween' one. All the others were done just for my pleasure. And, hopefully, a few other people's pleasure as well.
(About that pedal approach: I was inspired to work that way because much early medieval music and Arabian music is often pedal-based as well.)

Yes, I do like them Russians. They're all over my music, aren't they? Give me two or three Russians, a generous helping of Beethoven, a good chunk of the Zappa catalogue and a couple of my favourite jazz albums, and I'm all packed for that desert island.

Don't ever think you suck, Nikolas. You don't. The pieces I heard from you are all quite marvellous and fascinating, and always have some special ingredient which shows that you work fully dedicated and with a curious, exploring and open mind. Which are _very_ healthy qualities in a musician, in my opinion.

Thanks again!

Piet

_


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## Colin O'Malley (Jul 2, 2009)

Wow. Now there's something you don't hear everyday.... I think it's rare to hear someone that has an identity and musical point of view as strong as yours. Thanks for posting. 

Colin


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2009)

Re-peat. Your pieces are very nice. I too have written much concert music not to dissimilar to yours. I'll post them as soon as I get back into town. Or better yet, I'll just send you some copies. I'm pretty much done with posting on this forum.

While the pieces are good I really don't think the style is that marketable. (save for the first piece which could be used in certain context) That being said I don't see why you have to come down so hard on people that do spend some time doing music for public consumption.

My only gripe about the way you critiqued my pieces was that I felt that you were missing the point. Or perhaps I didn't explain the assignment well enough. The point being that the cues where not really intended for musicians but for a non musical audience.

If you look up the definition of popular music in the Cambridge dictionary of music you'll see that the definition includes this statement, " music that doesn't take any specialized knowledge of music to understand". I wrote my pieces with exactly that statement in mind. 

Trust me. I tried to push my more concert styled pieces here in Hollywood for many years. What resulted was 5 years of me doing concert music and not one film. Not one. So I spent time analyzing why and one of the things that came to light was that, people only listen once. They listen to the demo once and if they don't get it they don't listen again. My only real money has come from really making my music simple and emotionally effective rather than "challenging". 

Hopefully some day I'll be able to get back to more challenging stuff that's more complicated, but as things are going now. I seriously doubt it will be the case for movies. Maybe in TV. Jeff Beal and Michael Levine are doing some pretty innovated stuff, but as of now nobody really trust me enough to go out on a limb.

So no hard feelings really. I took it hard because I'm not a lazy composer and don't like being called one. I work really hard on what I do even if it's simple. Actually find the simple stuff harder because you can't fall back on a flurry of notes and harmonies to wow and dazzle. Just a good lead line and some chords underneath.

At anyrate. I wanted to respond and clear the air. Very good work man. Don't think I'll make it back here much in the future. If you're curious about my more challenging concert pieces shoot me an email and I'll send them to you. A lot of them are on DAT which I don't have any more but a few of them I did get to transfer.

But, don't think we're too different minded. Just pursuing different purposes.

best,

Jose


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## nikolas (Jul 2, 2009)

re-peat @ Thu Jul 02 said:


> Don't ever think you suck, Nikolas. You don't. The pieces I heard from you are all quite marvellous and fascinating, and always have some special ingredient which shows that you work fully dedicated and with a curious, exploring and open mind. Which are _very_ healthy qualities in a musician, in my opinion.


Just to note that I was talking about my rendering skills mainly, rather than the whole package! :D I do love myself (almost a tad too much! :D:D)

Thank you for your lengthy reply, Piet. Nice to get to know a bit more about yourself.


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## Niah (Jul 2, 2009)

wow Piet, I think I just found my soulmate haha

Seriously I can relate to everything you said in that post 

And it's so refreshing to see that there's some true artists in here where music to them is not just a gig...it's a necessity


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## nikolas (Jul 2, 2009)

Actually I came back to post exactly that! I'm in a similar position and have been for the past 4 years. Studying with a scholarship allowed me to do as I please! And it's been a blessing. I do hope that my gathering all those years in experience, knowledge and papers will allow me to continue doing that. So far it's not really that bad...

On another note, Piet, are there any scores available for your concert hall pieces? I'd love to get my hands on them.


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## bryla (Jul 2, 2009)

Piet thanks for posting! Won't have the time to listen to it all right now, but have enough for the summer! I love your music, it's great in many ways, and I always find huge inspiration in your compositional, arranging and mixing techniques.

Best,
Thomas


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 2, 2009)

I hope you will keep them up over Monday, because I am not at my own computer until then. I have really liked the music I have heard previously by you, so I am curious about this opportunity to hear more.


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## re-peat (Jul 2, 2009)

*Jose,*

First of all: thanks very much.

You know, if people had just left us alone in that thread of yours, I'm convinced that we would have been the best of friends in no time at all. You'd learn me a few tricks, I would maybe suggest a couple of little things to you, we'd discuss various musical options and possibilities, and by the end of it, we would shake hands amically, both feeling a little bit richer and more complete than before.
It was never my intention to come down on you as blunt and agressively as it appeared, you know, and I've meanwhile realized that some of the things I said might indeed have stung a little. I'm really sorry about that. Honestly, my only concern is music. Always music. And: through better music, happier people.

Nothing but the best to you too!

_______

*Colin, Niah, Thomas,*

Triple-thanks verrrrry much!

_______

*Hans,*

It's a promise: I'll definitely leave them where they are until Monday.
Many thanks already.

_______

*Nikolas,*

I'm so sorry, but I don't have any scores. It's something that I intially wrote in my first reply to you, but then decided to delete again because I thought it would come across a bit conceited: you see, the thing is, I'm entirely self-taught, I can't read or write music. Not a jot. I could let Logic generate scores, I suppose, but I would have no way of checking if these scores were in any way accurate, because I'm unable to read them.
In other words: this forum has to make do as a concert hall for my music. And I must say, I quite like the place.

So, sorry about that. And thanks again!

Piet

_


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## germancomponist (Jul 2, 2009)

Piet,

there is something special in your music!

I like the way you compose and arrange. Well done!

Oops, I am a ghost but now I think I will post something from me, because perhaps some people think that I am only a theorist. :D


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## poseur (Jul 2, 2009)

i have no critique to offer.

but, thanks for posting.
that was lovely listening.

d


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## shin (Jul 2, 2009)

The Love Scene is very nice. Hadn't the time to listen to the others but I definitely will.

Best,
Stephan


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## PolarBear (Jul 2, 2009)

Nice compositions and remarkable mockup skills! Wow. All that self-taught. I'm deeply impressed and would like to thank for all the bandwidth - I just had to click every file. :D I hope you will share your musical ear and advice on the forums for a long time to come!

(I gotta admit though I wasn't really fond of your music when I heard a single isolated piece by you quite some while ago, don't remember which one, but as a unit, they all make sense to me now!)


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## Aaron Sapp (Jul 2, 2009)

Piet,

Your stuff is by far some of the most interesting I've heard on this forum. "Suite Electro Acoustique" is probably the most entertaining piece of music I've heard in months - inside and outside this forum.  You have some serious chops.

I can appreciate your philosophy regarding music. Sometimes I wonder what I could be doing outside of music to make a living so that I never have to think of my composing rig as a "lifeline", which tends to suck some of the very reason why I got into writing in the first place.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 2, 2009)

Piet, thanks for posting these. As always a wonderful listen.

I can think of no other way when conversing with composers to truly earn their respect but to give musical examples. It is not an unfortunate circumstance, it just is.

BTW I think you will enjoy the LASS staccs as they move naturally from one note to the next. Probably a nice fit for your concerto though what you have sounds great.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 2, 2009)

Piet,

your music is like a fresh breeze and I enjoyed every bit of it. You have a voice of your own that is most admireable IMO. 

Production-wise great, I even dig the violin in the GypsyMarch (which is a first for me).

As for the 'self-taught' issue I have worked with quite some self-taught composers and have found that often they have a great set of ears.

Your approach to music with all its passion has been inspiring for me before and is always again.

Thanks
Hannes


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## Rob (Jul 2, 2009)

Thank you Piet, I've downloaded them all and tomorrow I'm going to put them on my mp3 player so I can listen while I'm around playing gigs... I know I'll love them all...

Roberto


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## kid-surf (Jul 2, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Thu Jul 02 said:


> I can think of no other way when conversing with composers to truly earn their respect but to give musical examples. It is not an unfortunate circumstance, it just is.




True...which is why I have no respect around here.  

Anyway...

I liked "ElectroAcoustic Suit" the most. I found the fractured form oddly compelling. From time-to-time I enjoy experiencing art that was created for the sake of it. It's so rare these days. 

Having said that, this will reveal how cynical I am:  Although, I did question "this is interesting...but is he trying too hard to sound avant-garde...or is this simply exploration...I dunno...maybe he doesn't even know...maybe it doesn't matter"

And without fanning the flames (re: Jose)...

I'm not sure I see any of these pieces working for a film (save for "Love"). The only thing I can say for certain is that they wouldn't work for anything I've written, or will write in the future (indie or studio)...despite enjoying my listen.

The point there is simply: Be glad you have the freedom to create whatever you'd like. The world would be worse off without your kind. And at the same time, it would be worse off without those who do deliver for directors and the like...even when the music is NOT up to a standard that impresses composers. After all, how many films do you supposes writers and directors like? Trust me, it's very few.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 2, 2009)

Re-Peat,

Thanks for sharing your music, finally! lol You are definitely a good composer and know your kraft. Not all the pieces are to my liking however I can appreciate the skill involved in each one of them. It may be just me but sometimes I feel it's intellectualized too much and could be warmer, can't quite put my finger on it. But good stuff! Keep up the good work.

Being the bad boy of Control VI I hope I won't get crucified....


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 2, 2009)

Hey Piet,

Thanks for putting those up! I love Aljuciba. Do I detect some Stravinsky influence (Soldier's Tale) in some of the pieces? The Concertino's really great as well - what energy!

Aaron, nice to see you here again - where you been? Studying/writing?

Guy, you've still got a long way to go before you can reach choc0's bad boy status.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 2, 2009)

I was going to say Stravinsky....


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## Niah (Jul 2, 2009)

what? I thought choco was the super saint hobo of VI control

ok now I'm confused :?


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## NedK (Jul 2, 2009)

Highly intellectual, emotionally charged, very warm and very cool. Genuine music. Thanks a lot for posting these.

Oh, and I think Halloween is as fine an example of commercial film score style music as I've ever heard.


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## Jaap (Jul 3, 2009)

Hey Piet,

Thanks for sharing. I didn't had time to listen all pieces yet, but picked out a few and I really really enjoyed the Trio for Piano, Clarinet and Horn. My wife is a clarinet player and I let her take a listen as well and allthough she could here it is sampled she thought you really catched the clarinet in a very nice way, some minor comments on that some lines feel a bit unnatural from breathing perspective (beginning of slower part). Not undoable though.

I hope the music will be long enough online to listen the other pieces as well.


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## R. Soul (Jul 3, 2009)

I quite agree with Kid-Surf and Guy Bacos (AKA Kevin Pollak  ).

ElectroAcoustic suite is quite interesting and very well composed. Quite impressed by that actually. 
For the other tracks, it's IMO a case of as Guy puts it - too intellectualized. Too many notes for my liking but I sure find it very competent.


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## Stephen Rees (Jul 3, 2009)

I'd like to add my congratulations to the others on this thread. Wonderful pieces beautifully performed and produced.

Thanks for sharing 

Stephen


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Everybody calls you Piet I see, ok I'll stop saying re-peat.

Regarding the more intellectual style, if I had to make a parallel I could say you are from the school of Brahms and I'm from the school of Tchaikovsky. As we know, both are equally good, but clashed with each other. Anyway, the clash is behind us now :D


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## steb74 (Jul 3, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Jul 03 said:


> The reason, I believe, that much of this music may be perceived as 'intellectual', or even 'detached', is because it doesn't attempt to communicate anything but the music itself. Many of these pieces don't have that emotional layer which the listener can cling on to, it's just music.


Hi man, for what it's worth I feel that the beauty of music itself should be enough of an emotional layer for anyone to cling on to, after all there's more than just one kind of emotion we can experience.
I personally don't believe or at least feel as strongly about the idea of something being too intellectual, music either resonates within or it doesn't, well that's what concerns me.
Anyway...I've enjoyed listening, good work man.
Cheers.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

If it was that simple than all the Britney Spears fan should love Beethoven's 9th symphony....


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## Niah (Jul 3, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Jul 03 said:


> If it was that simple than all the Britney Spears fan should love Beethoven's 9th symphony....



does she still has any fans left? :lol:


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## Niah (Jul 3, 2009)

steb74 @ Fri Jul 03 said:


> re-peat @ Fri Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > The reason, I believe, that much of this music may be perceived as 'intellectual', or even 'detached', is because it doesn't attempt to communicate anything but the music itself. Many of these pieces don't have that emotional layer which the listener can cling on to, it's just music.
> ...



I think I can say that I agree with this.

I have an almost exclusive emotional relationship with music, film and jsut about any other art form. Things like Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman or other musical outfits that can be called intellectual have a tremendous emotional impact in me. Same thing with the most adventurous pieces from Re-peat.

Emotion is extremely complex and difficult to define. Not to mention personal.


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## kid-surf (Jul 3, 2009)

> Emotion is extremely complex and difficult to define. Not to mention personal.



I agree...articulating emotions is often easier with music rather than words, which can make it hard to explain just how/why a piece hits us -or- for the composer; why we wrote it.

From that POV: I am curious what inspired "ElectroAcoustic Suit". It feels (to me) as if there is a story behind this piece.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Perhaps there should be some nuances as far as this goes. When I originally said too intellectualized this was for my taste and I think for a forum like this where there is a lot of emphasis on film music it could become an issue. But if we talk music in general
it's a very personal thing.


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## re-peat (Jul 3, 2009)

Yes, it is a very personal thing. And it's also a very interesting discussion: when we respond to the beauty (or ugliness) of music - I'm not talking about my music now, just 'music' in general - , is that an emotional response or an intellectual one? Should it be one or the other? It's always a bit of both of course, but which one will get us deepest inside the music? 

I believe that the highest satisfaction we can derive from music - passively as a listener, or actively as a performer/composer - is when we approach it strictly as a matter of the mind, not of the heart (to use those two bodyparts as metaphors for respectively 'intellect' and 'emotion'). Any emotional involvement, it seems to me, always takes away from the purely musical experience. But I'm aware that few people share this point of view.

Stravinsky once said that _music isn't capable of expressing anything but itself_ (or something along those lines anyway). A highly contested statement, just as much today as it was at the time, but I think it's absolutely true. Great music can only be great (and appreciated fully) on strictly musical grounds, in my view. We may of course indulge in a certain amount of emotional dressing if we like (there's obviously nothing wrong with simply enjoying a nice piece of music and allowing it to stir up all kinds of emotions), but it will never take us deeper inside the music itself, I believe. Put differently, truly great music is always absolute music to me, and all its greatness should come from within the music itself, not from somewhere outside (say, an emotional reaction, a storyline, visuals, or a sympathy for or dislike of the composer, etc ...).
In all good music there is no need for anything but music. That is, I think, why so much music which is created with that 'abstract' mindset - no matter whether it is good or bad - alienates so many people: because they find it 'too intellectual'. And of course, it is. But is 'intellectual', in the context of art, a quality or a flaw? 

One example: if we listen to Beethoven's 6th (the 'Pastoral'), do we get more out of the music if we allow ourselves to get carried away by all the emotional and extra-musical connotations that this symphony is known for? Me, I don't think so. Listening to Beethoven's 6th or listening to Beethoven's 'Pastoral Symphony' (which has that extra layer of emotional appeal) are two entirely different things, even though they're both the same work. Me, I much prefer to listen to the 6th, I'm not even interested, not in the least, in the fact that it is also 'the Pastoral'. The 6th gives me much more pure musical pleasure than 'the Pastoral'.

But finally, before I press the 'submit'-button, some more thanks: *Jaap, R.Soul, Stephen, Steb74,* thank you very much for the appreciation!

_


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## Dave Connor (Jul 3, 2009)

Wonderful! Love the concertino for piano and small orchestra. Expertly realized piece with real command of composition and strong personal voice. Top drawer stuff there. (only listened to Alju Club and that but will listen to more.)


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Back to the intellectual....

To me Stravinsky's music is quite emotional and certainly represents much more than a bunch of random notes on a piece of paper. The man was a great composer but a lousy philosopher as most composers are.

If we look at history, the greatest composer of all time, let's face it: Beethoven, his music has the perfect balance between intellect and strong emotion. I think that's a formula any great composer cannot do without.


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## JBacal (Jul 3, 2009)

Piet, I loved listening and RE-listening to your pieces. You have your own voice-- which is something special.

Take care,
Jay


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

JBacal @ Fri Jul 03 said:


> Piet, I loved listening and RE-listening to your pieces. You have your own voice-- which is something special.
> 
> Take care,
> Jay



ditto


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## Dave Connor (Jul 3, 2009)

It's not an accident that some of the most emotional music comes from supreme intellects such as Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. Does music need to have an emotional component? Not for me. I love Ives and his fascinating and intriguing tapestries. Webern, Bartok, Carter, Schoenberg, Stravinsky all did things that did not have a lot of emotional content yet were teaming with musical content. Even highly emotional music is usually a series of emotional peaks that can have very unemotional sections such as in Mahler's quieter sections. Also consider highly kinetic pieces such as Prokofiev's piano sonata's.

Though most music in the Classical repetoire and film have definite emotional characteristics (to various degrees) it is not a vital component for good or even great music. Piet's Concertina for Piano and Small Orchestra is a perfect example.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Well there may be some confusion about the definition of "emotional". It seems what one sees as intellect another could see as emotional. When I say emotional I don't necessarily mean a passionate love scene or that sort of music. It may be just me then, but I feel emotion in a lot of different genres of music, not just Tchaikovsky and Wagner.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Anyway, this is going nowhere, Piet, keep up the good music. It's solid.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 3, 2009)

Actually the issue of the extent of emotional content in music has been a lively topic for centuries so it's not likely to stop here in this thread. My point is that there is music that really is not coming from an emotional place (as there is in all the arts) but has characteristics of color, design, form, contrast etc. I was merely pointing out that there are highly successful and interesting works that do not have emotional conveyance as the central aim.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Yeah, I know what you meant, but to me it's just various degrees of emotion the body interprets differently, you could rationalize it all you want. Music is made to be enjoyed, if there is no reaction in the body than you are a robot. A joke is funny and works if you laugh not if it's interesting.


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## nikolas (Jul 3, 2009)

You must be one tired guy, Guy! (pun intended! :D). I mean if you are looking for a reaction from your body, for everything that happens in your life you must be devastated really!

Can't we simply accept that there's all kinds of music "intelectual", "emotional", etc and leave out anything else? 

There is no correct usage for music, nor for any other art. There is no correct respond to art and all people react differently. Who is to say that a music track is emotionless or "too intelectual", unless they are talking about their own private issues, in which case the person talking is also responsible to that and their experience, knowledge and aesthetic criteria should be taken into consideration.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2009)

Anyway, let's forget this. We are not talking about the same thing, or I'm not expressing it well.


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## ENW (Jul 3, 2009)

Piet,

You say you're 'half a professional' musician & can't read music???

Your music is quite remarkable. Your production skills are excellent. You must be one "kick-ass" graphic artist 

Eric

P.S.
If you're not from the US, "kick-ass" is a high compliment.


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## artsoundz (Jul 4, 2009)

He is. He posted some of his work some time ago (Cd covers etc that were about Black music of the 60's ?)and PROMISED an update for us. 

ahem...taptaptap....Piet?


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## ChrisAxia (Jul 4, 2009)

Hi Piet,

I'd just like to add my congratulations to you for the excellent music. Someone mentioned that you are self-taught, which is very impressive. I'd be interested to know how many others here are self taught. I too never studied composition or orchestration, but much of what you do is way beyond me! One day I might know what I'm doing...

Chris

P.S The love scene is far more 'John Barry' than 'Jerry Goldsmith'. Straight out of a Bond film!


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## re-peat (Jul 4, 2009)

*Dave* and *Jay*, thanks very much!! And I do mean: verrrrrry much.

_


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## Hannes_F (Jul 4, 2009)

Very interesting discussion here.

For me the word 'emotion' is somewhat too narrow, it does not justice to what can be found in music which can go way beyond.


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## re-peat (Jul 4, 2009)

The thing that interests me is this: when one says that listening to and enjoying great music is an 'emotional' thing, does that mean that (a) the music itself expresses or awakens emotions which affect you deeply or, (b) that you react emotionally because the music - just the music - is so good? The difference is important, I think.

Do we react with excitement to Williams' "Raiders March" because (a) it captures the adventurous "hat & whip" heroics so perfectly in its rousing music, or (b) because it's such an unbelievable inspired succession of notes and sounds. With me, it's the latter, but it seems that a good number of people will say it's the former for them.
(One doesn't have to completely exclude the other, I know, but I'm merely trying to make a point.)

Or when Guy says that, to him, Stravinsky's music is quite emotional, I really would like to know what sort of emotion we're talking about here. Cause I don't hear it like that. I hear zero emotion in Stravinsky and the emotion that I feel listening to his music is equally non-existent. I simply hear one of the most talented musicians ever, coming up with one unbelievable bar of music after another. I'm in complete awe of the ideas, the invention, the structures, the sounds, the sharpness of his mind, the perfect match between style and content, ... but this 'being in awe' is always on a purely 'rational' basis.

One of the members here has as a subscript to all his posts a quote from Tolstoy, saying "Music is the shorthand of emotion." I don't get that and I certainly disagree strongly with that statement (unless I don't understand what Tolstoy is trying to say). Why reduce music by making it the "shorthand" of something else? And "the shorthand of emotion", what does that mean? To me, good music begins and ends with(in) itself. Good music is perfectly complete as it is. No shorthand, no emotion, no nothing - just music.

_


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

I regret bringing this up because it's too complicated of an issue, I probably don't have the expertise to express it, but in a nut shell these are just words we like to attach to music. Just my opinion. This of course has nothing to do with Piets music which as I already said several times, I think is great. As far as Stravinsky goes, to answer Piet's question, when I listen to The Rite of Spring, Petrushka, The Firebird or Symphony of Psalm I get more than an intellectual kick. If it's just me than I'm sorry for the ones who listen to this great music otherwise.


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## rayinstirling (Jul 4, 2009)

Hey! success I've turned up here just in time to grab these cues.

Now, I think all these pieces are wonderful but I've got to tell you Piet.........

That's probably because I know very little about form and structure in music :lol: 

I was interested by your answer to Nikolas on your other job being the main income stream. 
That's probably the only thing we have in common.

It probably won't go down too well with many here that I think such a situation is the future, very few being able to survive by music production alone.

Best Regards

Ray


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## re-peat (Jul 4, 2009)

Guy,

No need to apologize for the way you listen to and enjoy music. Yours is obviously, at the very least, every bit as 'right', valid and rewarding as anyone elses, including mine. (That's part of the beauty and power of music, no?) I'm not seeking to establish a 'qualitative' hierarchy in the way we appreciate music (even though I expressed my preference), I'm simply interested in the differences of our approaches. It fascinates me. No judgement, just curiosity. If anyone should apologize, it is me, for sending out confusing messages.

_


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## re-peat (Jul 4, 2009)

Hi Ray, always nice to hear from you! (Am I wrong or has it been a while?)
And thanks very much!

_


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 4, 2009)

Guy, just so know that you're not alone, I also get goose bumps when I hear some of the Stravinsky works you mentioned. Bach does it to me too, as do Radiohead and NIN.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Guy, just so know that you're not alone, I also get goose bumps when I hear some of the Stravinsky works you mentioned. Bach does it to me too, as do Radiohead and NIN.



What about John Cage 4'33"?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 4, 2009)

I *hear* goosebumps when I listen to that piece.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

I hear you man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3bqi068dL4


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## JohnG (Jul 4, 2009)

This is like the "big bad wolf."

By using words like "bad," people applied to the wolves not just the element of physical menace (sharp teeth, speed, stealth, and all that goes along with strong-ish carnivores), but words that convey intention and even morality -- "evil," "nasty," "vicious" -- despite the fact that none of those epithets can reasonably be applied to any natural creature. A wolf kills because that's how nature or God or whatever made it -- it is not "vicious" in the sense of having vices or a choice. A wolf can't elect vegetarianism -- it's a wolf!

It is nonsense to apply to a wolf words like "bad" or "vicious" and, moreover, such anthropomorphic, emotionally- and morally-freighted expressions get in the way of seeing the wolf for what it actually is.

So to the "pastoral symphony" versus "Beethoven's 6th." To me, it's very possible to enjoy the calm and occasionally restful, organic feelings that "Beethoven's 6th" might excite, and still object to the additional, arguably diminishing patina of sentimentality and condescension that almost inevitably trail in the wake of the adjective "pastoral." "Pastoral," for me, inevitably conjures up those somewhat cloying paintings of Boucher and Fragonard, with all their associations of frivolity, luxury, indulgence, and their implied opposites that then get in the way of listening to what Beethoven actually wrote.

So I am supposing that Guy is objecting to the non-musical context that such labels drag into the listener's mind. That's quite distinct from arguing, which I don't think he is, that music is not experienced emotionally. And, even if I'm wrong in interpreting Guy's specific intentions or arguments, I think it's a valid distinction.


(Fragonard's "The Swing" http://www.alifetimeofcolor.com/study/i ... wing_l.jpg)

[edited for brevity]


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## Jaap (Jul 4, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy, just so know that you're not alone, I also get goose bumps when I hear some of the Stravinsky works you mentioned. Bach does it to me too, as do Radiohead and NIN.
> ...



That piece is the best emotional and intellectual statement made (not kidding)


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## ENW (Jul 4, 2009)

I love this forum. It's a shame we're spread all over the world or we could go out for a beer & discuss the depths of music.

Re: John Cage.
Cage came to the university I attended. He refused to speak about music. He would only discuss Zen. Don't get me started on that "one hand clapping" thing. I know a smart little girl who can do it


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

Can't get enough of this performance of 4' 33"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7h ... re=related


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## rJames (Jul 6, 2009)

For me, re-peats music takes me on a very enjoyable journey...

...but regarding whether we listen to music from an emotional or intellectual viewpoint;

I'm not sure anyone would take my input as valuable since I only have 3 years of experience in this business. But I agree with Aaron Copland who has said that he believes that people listen to music on three planes; "the sensuous plane, the expressive plane (and) the sheerly musical plane."

Paraphrasing...
The sensuous plane is where we listen to music without thinking about it, where it bathes us in sound. "The sensuous plane is an important one in music, a very important one, but it does not constitute the whole story."

The expressive plane is harder to explain and includes the impressionistic value. Copland goes so far as to say that we shouldn't even try to pin down a specific meaning to any piece. "How close should the intelligent music lover wish to come to pinning a definite meaning to any particular work? No closer that a general concept..."

Regarding Stravinsky, Copland noted that possibly Stravinsky's attitude that his music was an, "object," a "thing" with a life of its own, and with no other meaning than it's own purely musical existence might be due to the fact that so many people have tried to read different meanings into so many pieces.

The sheerly musical plane relates to the music in terms of the notes themselves and of their manipulation. 

How this relates to our discussion... Copland says, "Most listeners are not sufficiently conscious of this third plane." "Professional musicians, on the other hand, are, if anything, too conscious of the mere notes themselves. They often fall into the error of becoming so engrossed with their arpeggios and staccatos that they forget the deeper aspects of the music they are performing."

He notes that we all need to become more atuned to this sheerly musical (the notes themselves and their manipulation) plane.

To sum up; the reason that I even read this work by Copland was to try to get a better understanding, from a composer that I respect, of what the common man is hearing when listening to my music. Then I can blend the aspects of my artistry with the reality of how the audience perceives my music and better pursue my goal of making a living writing and producing music.

Back to film music; I think these are important insights and do strongly agree with Jose's and other film composers opinions that a major part of the audience does not "listen" to the notes but merely let the music take them on a journey.

I can only assume that the film director wants the film composer to utilize this very important fact of life and to manipulate the viewer (listener) to envelope them in his theatrical experience regardless of the intellectual value of the music.


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## JohnG (Jul 6, 2009)

very good post, rJames.


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## re-peat (Jul 6, 2009)

I think so too. Spot on.

rJames, the 3-plane theory is from *Copland's "What To Listen For in Music?"*, yes? A great little book, I remember, full of interesting thoughts about the perception and meaning of music. I have the pocket version lying around somewhere and now I'm going to look for it to read it again, thanks to your post.

Also highly recommended: *Leonard Bernstein's "The Unanswered Question"*, a DVD-set from 6 lectures he gave at Harvard in the early 70's, in which he approaches music using the methodology borrowed from linguistics (phonology, semantics and syntax) and arrives at a wealth of highly fascinating ideas, concepts and theories about the origins, the evolution, the meaning and the very 'being' of music. Plenty of audio examples (on the piano) and each lecture ends with a full orchestral performance (with the Boston SO).
(It's from "The Unanswered Question" - the lecture on semantics, to be more precise - that I borrowed the "Beethoven's 6th / Beethoven's Pastoral" example earlier in this thread.)
As far as I'm concerned, compulsory material for anyone seriously interested in music and the best $90 (the price of the DVD-set at Amazon.com) a musician can spend.


_


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## SvK (Jul 6, 2009)

Re-Peat.....

Production value on Halloween is super-high.....Old-School Love piece (shades of Barry, there) also very good in that 70 to 90 kinda way......Love them both....


wow...

SvK


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## rJames (Jul 6, 2009)

re-peat @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Also highly recommended: *Leonard Bernstein's "The Unanswered Question"*



done! (I can't wait for this)


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## re-peat (Jul 6, 2009)

*Svk,*

Thanks!!
'Shades of Barry' in the 'Love Scene', you say? I always thought it was much more than just 'shades': the whole thing almost sounds like a shameless Barry rip-off to me and it's only because I'm fairly proud of the main melody that I keep hanging on to this piece. 
It didn't start that out way though, but I still remember when hitting upon that melody (and, even more so, that chord sequence underneath: D > Am > Gm), that it immediately sounded very Barry-like to me, which is also the reason why I orchestrated it in a manner reminiscent of Barry: with the slow horn lines and the flute ornamentation (playing in a fairly low register, which is a favourite Barry sound). And there's another VERY Barry-esque touch, and one which I included with that specific purpose in mind, towards the end (at 1:38) when the trumpet plays that slow upwards octave interval: that's something which Barry used to do quite often in his 70's scores.

Thanks again!

And *rJames*, I notice now that I forgot to thank you in my previous post. I hereby do: thanks very much!

_


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## poseur (Jul 6, 2009)

i also really appreciated your thoughtful post, rJames;
thanks for that.


rJames @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> re-peat @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Also highly recommended: *Leonard Bernstein's "The Unanswered Question"*
> ...


it is, from my bias-point, fantastic!
enjoy.

d


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

well, i think i commented already on most of this stuff in the past. its however always a challenging experience for my ears and my mind, and its automatically fun for me each time.

My favourite is probably the french cheese, but thats probably because i'm italian and it recalls me of the 50-70 age of our film music, including masters like Rota, Morricone, Cicognini, Trovajoli and a lot more. 

Thanks for sharing those
Luca


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

re-peat @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Also highly recommended: *Leonard Bernstein's "The Unanswered Question"*



Another purchase, thanks! Got it used from Amazon for 58 bucks. 8)


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