# Thumbs Down for K3



## Big Bob (Oct 8, 2007)

I've had K3 now for about a week and while there are some things that I like about it, overall I'm afraid my assessment is a thumbs down.

Sorry to say that once again, NI has released a half-baked product with lots of things not working and lots of things 'knowingly' missing. For example, even though there have been some nice scripting enhancements, there is no documentation provided. The KSP manual included is ancient (last updted in April of 2006) and NI didn't even bother including the K2.2 addendums! The Library has been endowed with a lot of fancy new scripts but NI didn't include any documentation on the library or its associated scripts.

The readme file contains a list of features that aren't implemented 'yet' (features that are promised in the sales literature). There are also features that are described in the K3 Manual that are not in the actual product and, are not even apologized for in the readme file. To make matters worse, NI's already poor technical support has a new dimension added to it. When you try to ask a question about K3 by filling out a support form, one of the mandatory fields requires that you select from a drop-down list what version of Kontakt you are asking about. The joke is that the drop-down list is empty so you can't select anything. Yet when you click the submit button it flags the version field as being required, talk about catch 22!

If you are counting on the new sample-start offset in DFD mode, better read this posting of mine because it may not be what you think it's going to be.
http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7770

If you are involved in scripting, you should know that the release version of K3 takes from 5 to 7 times longer to compile or load a script than K2 does. The slowness is ridiculously obvious for any modest-sized script. However, Benjamin has run some tests with this and his latest beta version doesn't seem to exhibit this problem so they may already have identified and fixed this. But of course that won't benefit us until they issue the first update.

Less you think I have nothing good to say about K3, take a look at this post:
http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... fc32efc2f2

From the above you might be able to tell that I would like to like K3 but sadly, my overall opinion of K3 is not good. I have already experienced many crashes. Some of these due to simply compiling a script with a few syntax errors and some just randomly occuring during tests. I think releasing software in such a pathetic state is a very short-sighted strategy and one that someday NI will regret.

So, as usual, those of us who bought K3 can wait and wait and wait and install update after update and maybe by the time K4 is released, K3 will *almost* be working right (just as K2 is *almost* working right now). 

*Therefore, if you haven't already purchased K3, I suggest you wait until at least the first update is issued. And, if that turns out to be as half-baked as the first product release, maybe you should wait for the first 2 or 3 updates.*

Enjoy K2 a while longer (I see it has yet another free update in beta now).

Bob

PS

To give you some feel for the state this product was released in, here's some text extracted from the readme file. But, keep in mind there are other problems not even mentioned here. These are just those that they decided to admit to.

Version 3.0

- At the moment, double-click does not reset controls to their
default value. Use Ctrl+click (PC) / Command+click (Mac) instead.

- When editing Zone Envelopes, selecting the Pen tool will 
currently reset the Zone Envelope to its default state.

- The Drag MIDI to Host control currently does not create mapped
Zones when you just click on it. If you do not need the MIDI
sequence, use manual mapping instead.

- When using the detached version of the Mapping Editor, drag in
samples directly from the system file browser instead of the
KONTAKT browser.

- Power PC: in order to see the target mapping of samples, drag 
samples into the Mapping editor from the Finder instead of the 
KONTAKT browser.

- RTAS plug-ins are only supported in Digidesign hosts. For Logic
or Digital Performer, use the Audio Units plug-in instead.

- Although not mentioned in the manual, the following effects can
also be used in the Outputs section: Rotator, Twang, Cabinet.

- There are some known issues with pre-listen of sample loops in
the Wave Editor.

- There are some known issues with automation and tempo sync in 
Protools. Digidesign and Native Instruments are working on these 
problems.

- All of the Urban Beats instruments and some instruments from the
other Collections will get a Performance View in the next update.

- Non-ASCII characters will be supported in the browser, multi 
name, instrument name etc. in a future update. At the moment, 
these character can be entered but are garbled after certain 
actions.

- Windows Desktop Search will be supported in a future update.

- Dialogs will get Info Pane text entries in a future update.

- The shortcuts + and - do not currently work for zooming in 
Mapping Editor and Wave Editor.


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## Moonchilde (Oct 8, 2007)

Lovely. I bet NI rushed this out to get sales before GS4 hits the street. GS4 just might make a comeback, it is just a shame it doesn't load NI Kompakt libraries.


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## Nickie Fønshauge (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the report.



Big Bob @ 8th October 2007 said:


> *Therefore, if you haven't already purchased K3, I suggest you wait until at least the first update is issued. And, if that turns out to be as half-baked as the first product release, maybe you should wait for the first 2 or 3 updates.*



That's exactly what I intend to do. K2 has never been better or more stable, than it is now.

Btw, I once had the same kind of problem with the support form. There was no option for the Stradivari, so I used GPO instead, but explained that my request had to do with Stradivari. And I got the requested support within a few days. You might try to select Kontakt 2 instead and mention, that your request has to do with K3.


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## José Herring (Oct 8, 2007)

If you look at the NI site it's obvious that DJ's are their largest market. Seems like K2 is headed in the record, DJ direction with enhancements in the "realtime" manipulation of loops and stuff.

Giga's market has alway been film and TV composers. Stuff like 64bit, VST support, DEF filter makes Giga very suited to sampled based orchestral work. Giga 4 becomes a contender in my book. K3 I'll get in Komplete 5 but I'm not going out of my way to upgrade now.

Jose


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## Moonchilde (Oct 8, 2007)

I'd be quite interested in GS4 if the price tag wasn't $599.


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## Big Bob (Oct 8, 2007)

> Btw, I once had the same kind of problem with the support form. There was no option for the Stradivari, so I used GPO instead, but explained that my request had to do with Stradivari. And I got the requested support within a few days. You might try to select Kontakt 2 instead and mention, that your request has to do with K3.



Thanks for the suggestion Nickie but the problem is the missing menu is the one that would specify either V1 V2 or V3. The product selector allows you to choose Kontakt but then insists that you select a version number in the next box. That box has no selections :o .

Typical NI Stuff  

However, judging by the kind of lame answers they usually provide, I don't much care anymore anyway :lol: 

Have a great day my friend,

Bob


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## mducharme (Oct 8, 2007)

Moonchilde @ Mon Oct 08 said:


> I'd be quite interested in GS4 if the price tag wasn't $599.



Tascam has in the past had competitive upgrade pricing to Giga 3.. would imagine they will have the same for GS4, even if it hasn't been published yet..


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## Dynamitec (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Bob,

I really don't understand why NI released Kontakt that quickly, too. Ok, the GS4 may be a good reason. However: Here is a post on the NI forum with a hint of a coming 3.0.1 update. http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... hp?t=55264, so it's only a question of time - as usual, -till the update arrives. 

But i really can understand your thumbs down. I just can say that the new beta releases are far more stable and complete  I feel a little dumb telling how stable Kontakt is while almost everyone who uses the release version has a lot of issues and problems right now. The posts i wrote about Kontakt 3 weren't based on the release version btw.

I can't say what i would do better if i would be the developer of Kontakt 3. The complexity of Kontakt is high, the featurelist impressive...but i really would like to see release versions which satisfy their customers. 

On the other hand: i don't understand Tascam, either. Building such complex samplers should be far more complicated than integrating a scripting and a UI engine. 

For script-addicted people like some of us here, this is a must have 

Really, i can't trade off the scripting features of Kontakt even for impressive features like the DEF filters. As a developer i need to have the option to DO what i have in mind, to create NEW and CREATIVE things. Not just another sampling library with more and more and more samples...

I really would like to see an alternative to Kontakt. So there would be more pressure on all companies to develop better and more stable features.

Best,
Benjamin


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## VonRichter (Oct 8, 2007)

Bummer to hear, Bob... I hope some updates come soon so you can get some use out of it.


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## Thonex (Oct 8, 2007)

Dynamitec @ Mon Oct 08 said:


> I just can say that the new beta releases are far more stable and complete  I feel a little dumb telling how stable Kontakt is while almost everyone who uses the release version has a lot of issues and problems right now. The posts i wrote about Kontakt 3 weren't based on the release version btw.
> 
> I can't say what i would do better if i would be the developer of Kontakt 3. The complexity of Kontakt is high, the featurelist impressive...but i really would like to see release versions which satisfy their customers.



Thanks Ben,

It's good to see the silver lining.... I'll hold on to my K2 until the 3.01 comes out.

Cheers my friend,

T


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## Big Bob (Oct 8, 2007)

> I really would like to see an alternative to Kontakt. So there would be more pressure on all companies to develop better and more stable features.



You may get your wish Benjamin, I know at least two people that are developing super samplers. One of those has been in the works for quite a while now so one of these days it may become reality. This particular one will have a very advanced scripting facility compared to Kontakt.

In the meantime, its good to know that the latest beta version is so much better than the junk they sold me. As I said in another thread, there is a lot I like about K3 so if their first update brings it up to the level you seem to have (and they flesh out all the missing documentation, etc) ...... and they do all this pretty quickly before we all head for the exit ........

But, meanwhile until the big update, I won't even bother porting any of my scripts to K3 to take advantage of the new stuff. Just the increased time for a user to load a sizable script will be enough of a deterent.

BTW Benjamin, does *on _pgs_update *work in your beta version? It doesn't work at all in the version I have and that almost cripples the new interscript communication system before it gets off the ground. I guess I won't be retiring the ISCS any time soon after all.

Well, let's all remain hopeful.

Bob


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## polypx (Oct 10, 2007)

> You may get your wish Benjamin, I know at least two people that are developing super samplers. One of those has been in the works for quite a while now so one of these days it may become reality. This particular one will have a very advanced scripting facility compared to Kontakt.



Now this sounds very interesting Bob! Anywhere we can read about these projects?

cheers
Dan


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## Robert Kooijman (Oct 10, 2007)

Bob,
thank you for taking the time to test and inform us. Very much appreciated! All these issues and lack of 64 bit support, NI might end up in dangerous waters if the competition gets there act together again.

There's this phrase in the chorus of a famous old song: "when will they ever learn"...


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## kotori (Oct 10, 2007)

Big Bob @ Tue Oct 09 said:


> You may get your wish Benjamin, I know at least two people that are developing super samplers. One of those has been in the works for quite a while now so one of these days it may become reality. This particular one will have a very advanced scripting facility compared to Kontakt.



Hi Bob,
I too am interested in learning more about this. Can you say anything about it? Do you know if it's a commercial or open source effort?

Nils


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## Moonchilde (Oct 10, 2007)

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/forum_u ... hp?t=55371

K3 update is in it's final testing. I don't think it will be too long before some of these issues are fixed.


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## Paulie (Oct 10, 2007)

*"Kontakt Script Language Manual now includes 2.1 appendix"* :roll: :lol:


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## Big Bob (Oct 10, 2007)

Paulie @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> *"Kontakt Script Language Manual now includes 2.1 appendix"* :roll: :lol:



That might be a typo but it also might literally be true because my copy of K3 has only an ancient KSP manual and doesn't even have the K2.1 + K2.2 addendums (let alone any kind of K3 addendum, very sad state of affairs NI  .

Bob


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 10, 2007)

Bad news. I'll hold at K2.2 until the dust clears. Thanks for the candid review Big Bob!


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## Big Bob (Oct 10, 2007)

> Now this sounds very interesting Bob! Anywhere we can read about these projects?





> Hi Bob,
> I too am interested in learning more about this. Can you say anything about it? Do you know if it's a commercial or open source effort?
> 
> Nils



Hi Dan and Nils,

One of these projects you may already know about. Marc Bangerter (mbncp) has recently announced on this very forum that he has started such a project so I don't think he would mind if I mentioned it here. The other project is probably much farther along but I know that the guy doing it doesn't want to announce anything about it until its real, not wanting to get a bad reputation like NI. 

I don't know whether it will be open source or commercial but I suspect the latter. I don't know too much else about it other than he plans to provide a very powerful scripting facility with all the goodies (a very OOP ish, C++ kind of thing).

I'm also fairly sure that several others, with the necessary skills, are about fed up with the current status quo. So if NI and Tascam don't hurry up and get their act together, they may wake up one morning in a new world and wonder what happened :lol: 

God Bless,

Bob


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## FirmamentFX (Oct 10, 2007)

Moonchilde @ Mon Oct 08 said:


> I'd be quite interested in GS4 if the price tag wasn't $599.



Me too. And also if it didn't run in Kernel mode...

Maybe GVI 4 would be an option. For now though, I'm sticking with Kontakt 2.x - it's relatively stable, and most of the bugs/"features" are repeatable, so workarounds can be created.

Still waiting for my upgrade to K3 to come though, so I will make my own decision in time.

Independence is also an option... Although scripting capabilities need to be implemented.

M


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## amplayer (Oct 26, 2007)

I am no power user like many of you. I "upgraded" to K3, and I can not say I am happy with it. In fact, I don't even bother with it right now.
There are a few simple issues that really bug me about K3:
1) Dragging a sample into a new instrument doesn't map the pitch wheel anymore. No big deal to map it myself, but geez! Why should this be a new bug? :( 
2) The effects presets are missing. I dragged my K2 presets over, and now all of the K2 effects work, but still none of the new K3 effects are visible. This bug is inexcusable. They simply didn't check the Komplete 5 installer to ensure the effects presets load during installation. :x 
3) The library that it comes with has lots of duplicates WRT K2 as you all know. The thing that bugs me about it is that I have a some K2 projects that use the K2 library that I may want to go back to at a later date. As far as I can tell, there's no easy way to have only one unique set of samples on the system that both K3 and K2 can access.


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## StrangeCat (Oct 26, 2007)

K2.5 rock solid for me !


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## mirrodin (Oct 26, 2007)

All this is very interesting. Which actually brings up a question: with all these applications constantly being "revised" and updated, does anyone actually keep multiple versions of an application installed? I know for a VST plugin like Kontakt or any others this can be difficult unless you take the time to rename the DLL's and make sure they still link to everything correctly. Most of all it would be a niche for a very specific purpose, and it seems only select apps would bring benefit to it's users. I know for me this is necessary especially with the Line 6 software and hardware. I have a Guitar Port, a Pod 2.0, a Vetta combo cab, and a Bass Pod XT Pro, and I have Line 6 edit software, Gearbox, and Guitar Port software (all of which overlap in function) which means I still use Gearbox for some things, and Guitar Port software because of it's difference in the modelling processing engine. I also keep an older (un-updated) version of Guitar Port installed on yet another machine because of the huge difference I get between the old and new versions! With sampling I wouldn't be surprised if GS4 were to leave some odd widget out in the wake of a large majority of it's users never even knowing it existed, only to lose props with the small but most important users that actually use that feature!

I'm not trying to rant here, but does anyone think they might benefit from keeping multiple versions installed?


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## amplayer (Oct 31, 2007)

A big thumbs up for all my issues in the initial version of K3. K3.01 has now solved ALL the problems I had. Kudos to NI!


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## Big Bob (Oct 31, 2007)

amplayer @ Wed Oct 31 said:


> A big thumbs up for all my issues in the initial version of K3. K3.01 has now solved ALL the problems I had. Kudos to NI!



I concur that most of the things that I criticized have been corrected with the K3.0.1 patch. For example, the extremely slow compilation speed has been fixed and K3 now compiles large scripts at least as fast as K2 (perhaps even faster).

And, o=< , the new pgs callback is now functional and this is going to be one extremely useful addition :D . Of course it is a valuable component of the new interscript communication and data sharing, 'pgs' system but, *it's value goes way beyond that!*

Since this callback can actually be triggered from the ICB of a single script, timer loops and such can now be automatically started when a script is loaded (without any outside MIDI event to stimulate it). This has heretofore not been possible with K2. Also, this callback has exciting possibilities in the area of pseudo-calling and should make it possible to implement efficient local and global user functions like never before.

God Bless,

Bob

BTW *watch out *for the new 'Save as default Multi' command because it has a serious bug in it. I've reported it to Benjamin and Nils and hopefully they will report it to NI.


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## amplayer (Oct 31, 2007)

amplayer @ Wed Oct 31 said:


> A big thumbs up for all my issues in the initial version of K3. K3.01 has now solved ALL the problems I had. Kudos to NI!



By the way, a big Kudos to v.i. :control! The one issue I can still blame NI about is that they didn't really publicize the 3.01 patch. However, the only reason I even found out about the patch is because I saw the thread here stating so.


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