# Stargirl Scoring Competition



## Spitfire Team (Jul 15, 2021)

In collaboration with Pinar Toprak and DC’s Stargirl, we are giving you the opportunity to win an Everything Drive and virtual mentoring session with Pinar herself.

All you have to do is score a clip from DC’s hit series Stargirl!

For more information and the clip head to: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/stargirl


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## Markrs (Jul 15, 2021)

Well this will be interesting to watch. Great they are doing a contest again even with some of the lack of decorum that came with the previous one. Good luck to everyone that enters!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

A great opportunity. I’m impressed Spitfire is doing another scoring competition given the absolutely ludicrous reaction to the last one. Their faith in humanity is inspiring 😂.

Appreciate the Kris Bowers homage in the trailer too.


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## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2021)

Great to see! Now let’s all behave this time around, shall we? ☺️


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## juliandoe (Jul 15, 2021)

I believe that things like this are a way to improve yourself. No matter the prize. The more you practice, the more you get better. I have no equipment or power to do a competitive entry, so I have to find a way to overcome these obstacles. And this is a lesson that is worth more than every prize. Good luck everyone, looking forward to ear all your take on the scene.


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## davidson (Jul 15, 2021)

Would it be too cliché if I entered a chiptune piece?


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## Kery Michael (Jul 15, 2021)

Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, I’m glad that after the last contest Spitfire didn’t say, Well, never doing that again!…

however if @David Kudell wins again, what’s he going to do with 2 Spitfire everything drives!? Grrrr….. jk, of course. 🙂


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## Michael Stibor (Jul 15, 2021)

juliandoe said:


> I believe that things like this are a way to improve yourself. No matter the prize. The more you practice, the more you get better…


Exactly. If you do these competitions to win, you’re gonna be disappointed. But if it’s for fun, practice, and educational purposes, why not?

Having said that, I wish these contests weren’t always so “action scene” focused. It’s like it’s begging everyone to make the same music (yes, even the pros do it) or create something that’s so out there that it’s inappropriate for the sake of being different (sound familiar?). 

In any case, it should be fun, and I had a great time watching the videos last time.


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## reutunes (Jul 15, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Well this will be interesting to watch. Great they are doing a contest again even with some of the difficulty that came with the previous one. Good luck to everyone that enters!


What difficulty?

The only thing "difficult" about that previous competition was getting composers to be civil to one another in the aftermath.


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## Markrs (Jul 15, 2021)

reutunes said:


> What difficulty?
> 
> The only thing "difficult" about that previous competition was getting composers to be civil to one another in the aftermath.


Yep, that is what I meant, maybe "difficulty" isn't the right word to describe the lack of decorum that ensued from the result. 

Just reworded my post for better clarity


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## easyrider (Jul 15, 2021)

Think I might bash one out….😂


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## Composer 2021 (Jul 15, 2021)

I hope they pick a piece that could legitimately be in the show. Last time, they so got tired of hearing 10,000 Remote Control Productions tracks that they picked on one that sounded different, even though it could never be a real cue in the show.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

Composer 2021 said:


> I hope they pick a piece that could legitimately be in the show. Last time, they so got tired of hearing 10,000 Remote Control Productions tracks that they picked on one that sounded different, even though it could never be a real cue in the show.


Isn’t it up to the director on what “could be a real cue in the show”? Not for the masses to really decide. Also why do they need to constrain it to Pinar’s existing aesthetic for the show? They aren’t looking for Pinar 2.0. This time around they’ve explicitly stated individuality as the first criteria for selection.


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## easyrider (Jul 15, 2021)

It’s spitfires competition…..they can choose who they damn well like to win! 😎


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

Having watched the clip a few times (whilst doing kids bath!) my initial thought is it’s about how you get to that finishing shot. Needs room to breathe and build beforehand. There’s a lot of points to hit in the cue and it might be easy to overplay. Lots of conflict and a tricky emotional switch to make, as the rules suggest.

My initial thoughts, anyhow. I have an idea of where I *might* go with it.


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## Drundfunk (Jul 15, 2021)

@Spitfire Team the download limit on Google drive is already reached .


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## shadowsoflight (Jul 15, 2021)

Well, this seems like a fun opportunity to test out my skills and learn. As long as I can get some sort of constructive feedback from someone I would consider it a win... I think I'll give it a go!


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## TheFleetingGlory (Jul 16, 2021)

I can totally see how the winning entry for the Westworld comp sent a lot of mod wheel max’d horn patch wizards into a frenzy of frustration (I too did my best sub standard Remote Control entry, and like most had assumed the winning entry would have been suitable to use in the actual show rather than the fun approach of the winner).

However, there is no denying the excitement around getting another professional production to put into my DAW and pretend to be a working composer for a few weeks as an escape from my much more tedious real job. Can’t wait to get started on it, thank you Spitfire team!


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## toddkreuz (Jul 16, 2021)

OMG another one, and people are complaining already. 

If you're trying to out yourselves as cry babies so nobody will want to
work with you, its really working well. 

They should change the name from Contest to Cringe fest.


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## star.keys (Jul 16, 2021)

I am very excited with Spitfire's excitement about this competition 

Jokes apart, this is a great opportunity for composers... always helps to put yourself there and compete, compare and learn (winning isn't important)


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## jononotbono (Jul 16, 2021)

Definitely gonna enter! The last one was so much fun!


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## nolotrippen (Jul 16, 2021)

toddkreuz said:


> OMG another one, and people are complaining already.
> 
> If you're trying to out yourselves as cry babies so nobody will want to
> work with you, its really working well.
> ...


Complain now. Avoid the rush.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 16, 2021)

It does seem a little strange - why buy all those libraries and when the opportunity to flex them comes along, it's a hard pass?

I was forever annoyed I didn't enter the first one and thought the opportunity had gone, believing that Spitfire would never be insane enough to run another. Yet here we are. Fair play to them. 

I'm amazed that some have got entries up already.


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## David Kudell (Jul 16, 2021)

Kery Michael said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, I’m glad that after the last contest Spitfire didn’t say, Well, never doing that again!…
> 
> however if @David Kudell wins again, what’s he going to do with 2 Spitfire everything drives!? Grrrr….. jk, of course. 🙂


Well I've been meaning to pick up their new Jangle Box Piano so this could be my chance.


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## Loïc D (Jul 16, 2021)

_@David Kudell _: I was about to ping you about this thread !
You should be part of the jury now LOL


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 16, 2021)

This will not end well.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 16, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> Well I've been meaning to pick up their new Jangle Box Piano so this could be my chance.


I “liked” your post. Then the thought of you swimming around with all that Spitfire loot made me angry and jealous. So I removed the like.
Am I being petty? I stand by it. 😉


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## David Kudell (Jul 16, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I “liked” your post. Then the thought of you swimming around with all that Spitfire loot made me angry and jealous. So I removed the like.
> Petty? I stand by it.


I was joking in case that didn't come through. 🙂


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 16, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> I was joking in case that didn't come through. 🙂


I hope you know I was too. I’ve eased up the British dryness above. Lord knows I don’t want to start confusion in a Spitfire comp thread!
A


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## Toecutter (Jul 16, 2021)




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## becolossal (Jul 16, 2021)

Guess I'm scrapping my dulcimer entry .


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## shadowsoflight (Jul 16, 2021)

So while watching this scene to pick out the different cues, I started to take on the stress in the scene. Remind me to avoid scoring horror scenes 😅


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## audio1 (Jul 16, 2021)

Spitfire Team said:


> In collaboration with Pinar Toprak and DC’s Stargirl, we are giving you the opportunity to.......


No thanks.


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## dcoscina (Jul 16, 2021)

I messed around with this in Studio One this evening. Got about halfway through before I had to quit for bedtime… it’s a bit cluttered and needs some refining.. and balancing out all the different libraries (Opus, BBCSO, Symphonic Motions, True Strike, UVI Falcon, Omnisphere etc etc).


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 16, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I might regret this but I messed around with this in Studio One this evening. Got about halfway through before I had to quit for bedtime… it’s a bit cluttered and needs some refining.. and balancing out all the different libraries (I used everything but the kitchen sink it seems). But whatever


Good start. Keep it up. It is a little cluttered at the moment and I was hoping for a bit more of a heroic nod when he caught the bus _(kind of a Kamen Iron Giant moment there)_ but it's sounding very good. You have some great libraries and it sounds like you know them pretty well. Can't wait to see where it goes.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 17, 2021)

Composer 2021 said:


> I hope they pick a piece that could legitimately be in the show. Last time, they so got tired of hearing 10,000 Remote Control Productions tracks that they picked on one that sounded different, even though it could never be a real cue in the show.


It’s best to just focus on this new competition, isn’t it? No reason to beat a dead horse.


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## Markrs (Jul 17, 2021)

For anyone new to scoring a scene I found the below YouTube video very helpful.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 17, 2021)

Markrs said:


> For anyone new to scoring a scene I found the below YouTube video very helpful.



This is great! Thanks for the post!


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## Jotto (Jul 17, 2021)

That scene is not my cup of tea at ALL, but i shall give it a try.


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## dcoscina (Jul 17, 2021)

I had this idea to score it like Goldsmith would have in the late 60s. using 12 tone procedure... LOL. Or maybe score it like Varése's Arcana.. that would be unique eh? mwahahahaha


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## nolotrippen (Jul 17, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I had this idea to score it like Goldsmith would have in the late 60s. using 12 tone procedure... LOL. Or maybe score it like Varése's Arcana.. that would be unique eh? mwahahahaha


No Dixieland?


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## Dirtgrain (Jul 17, 2021)

I am preemptively miffed that they will choose a winner!

Got that out of my system, and I'm wanting to give this a go, for practice (don't have the chops yet to do well). For the last competition, I didn't realize what the genre switch was all about in _Westworld_. Is there any context for Stargirl and the scenes that might be important, this time around?


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## Markrs (Jul 17, 2021)

Dirtgrain said:


> I am preemptively miffed that they will choose a winner!
> 
> Got that out of my system, and I'm wanting to give this a go, for practice (don't have the chops yet to do well). For the last competition, I didn't realize what the genre switch was all about in _Westworld_. Is there any context for Stargirl and the scenes that might be important, this time around?





> *The individuality of your score
> 
> You don’t have to match the original score, or what Pinar Toprak has done for the rest of the series.* You could choose to program an orchestra, record live instruments or your voice, or maybe use a blend of synthesizers and free libraries like LABS. It’s about what YOU do with this scene with fresh eyes and ears.
> Your music should sit well with the activity on screen. Are you working around the dialogue and FX? Have you hit the cue points? Does your score keep up with the pace of the visuals?


I think the above address the issue that you might have been expected to have watched that particular episode or previous episodes to write for the scene


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## Jotto (Jul 17, 2021)

Link to the original anyone?


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 17, 2021)

The Wikipedia guides for the series provide useful some context:









Stargirl (TV series) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Episode 3 is what you want.


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## KEM (Jul 17, 2021)

I really enjoyed doing the last one, and scoring to picture is my favorite thing in the whole world, so this should be a lot of fun


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 17, 2021)

KEM said:


> I really enjoyed doing the last one, and scoring to picture is my favorite thing in the whole world, so this should be a lot of fun


Can't wait - Stargirl meets Tenet! Should be fun!


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## KEM (Jul 17, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> Can't wait - Stargirl meets Tenet! Should be fun!


Looks like someone’s been paying attention to my work lol

But you’re 100% correct because I already had 808 patterns in my head as soon as I saw that little action sequence haha!!


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 17, 2021)

KEM said:


> Looks like someone’s been paying attention to my work lol
> 
> But you’re 100% correct because I already had 808 patterns in my head as soon as I saw that little action sequence haha!!


Bring it on!


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 17, 2021)

KEM said:


> Looks like someone’s been paying attention to my work lol
> 
> But you’re 100% correct because I already had 808 patterns in my head as soon as I saw that little action sequence haha!!


I have a hunch yours might be the most fun of the entries.


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## AEF (Jul 17, 2021)

Another action scene originally done by an RCP alum….kind of limiting, and thus only outlandish submissions end up winning. Where have we seen this before?


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## KEM (Jul 18, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> I have a hunch yours might be the most fun of the entries.


Thank you!! I’m definitely gonna try to have fun with it, right now I’m thinking of a TENET meets Star Wars mixture, but who knows what I’ll actually come up with, that’s just what I’m hearing in my head


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## Manaberry (Jul 18, 2021)

I'm bored so I'm gonna enter just to bring some Marvel vibes to a DC show.

_*Evil laugh*_


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## Crowe (Jul 18, 2021)

I suppose I shall attempt this. Whiiiiiiiiiiii /m/


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## Ike_Co (Jul 19, 2021)

Composer 2021 said:


> I hope they pick a piece that could legitimately be in the show. Last time, they so got tired of hearing 10,000 Remote Control Productions tracks that they picked on one that sounded different, even though it could never be a real cue in the show.


So the last time's winner did not really end up in the show? Or was it never supposed to be in the show?

Also, could you explain what "Remote Control Productions tracks" refers to? Do you mean generic sounding ones?


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## Markrs (Jul 19, 2021)




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## jonathanwright (Jul 19, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Think I might bash one out….😂


*passes tissue*


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## Wally Garten (Jul 19, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I think the above address the issue that you might have been expected to have watched that particular episode or previous episodes to write for the scene


Kind of. But honestly, I have no idea what the stakes are in this scene. Who is the kid with the cards? Who is Icicle? What's the relationship between Luke Wilson and Stargirl? I mean, some of this I can figure out from googling -- and obviously the kids-in-peril stuff speaks for itself -- but it's still odd to try to score something I don't understand, in isolation. (Hey, for all I know Stargirl is a supervillain, the kid with the cards is future Hitler, and Icicle is doing the right thing....)


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## KEM (Jul 19, 2021)

Markrs said:


>



Well I’m definitely not gonna be able to write anything like that…


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 19, 2021)

Ike_Co said:


> So the last time's winner did not really end up in the show? Or was it never supposed to be in the show?
> 
> Also, could you explain what "Remote Control Productions tracks" refers to? Do you mean generic sounding ones?


It was never supposed to be in the show (that's what Ramin Djwadi is for - and Pinar in this situation).

Remote Control is Hans Zimmer's media composition company. Many successful composers have spent time there - including Ramin and Pinar. Some people may think the composers coming out of there have a similar sound or composition style. To that I would say, they are not listening carefully enough.


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## Markrs (Jul 19, 2021)

KEM said:


> Well I’m definitely not gonna be able to write anything like that…


I think the key is you shouldn’t try to write like that. Just because most of us are not as good as Pinar. Secondly they want to hear your voice, they want to hear a mash up of superhero and Tenet style pulsing synth rhythm. Just be you KEM 🙂


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 19, 2021)

KEM said:


> Well I’m definitely not gonna be able to write anything like that…


They don't want you to. Be original! That's the brief. Score the emotion.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

Wally Garten said:


> Kind of. But honestly, I have no idea what the stakes are in this scene. Who is the kid with the cards? Who is Icicle? What's the relationship between Luke Wilson and Stargirl? I mean, some of this I can figure out from googling -- and obviously the kids-in-peril stuff speaks for itself -- but it's still odd to try to score something I don't understand, in isolation. (Hey, for all I know Stargirl is a supervillain, the kid with the cards is future Hitler, and Icicle is doing the right thing....)


Very simple to find out if you want. The season is all on iTunes. If you don't want to see the way the scene is really scored, watch the episodes before it. You get caught up to who is who real fast. It's obvious in the scene though.


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## Wally Garten (Jul 20, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> It's obvious in the scene though.


I mean... it wasn't obvious to me. Hence my comment. (Obviously I was being facetious about Stargirl being the villain.) For example, I genuinely can't tell from the scene what the relationship is between Stargirl and Playing Card Kid. Is that her boyfriend? Her brother? Just a school acquaintance? It makes a difference to the emotional beat the music is supposed to hit, right?

I'm not especially perturbed by it, as I'm doing the contest solely for practice and fun. But what I think is kind of funny and disturbing about a contest like this is that it follows the logic of "everything is a remix." Art isn't a coherent whole where everything depends on everything else. It's just "an action scene," and it doesn't require context and Pinar Toprak's score can be replaced with something else. Everything is modular and flat, not particular.

I'm aware, of course, that I'm contributing to the problem, as I probably will _not_ download and watch the whole show and will end up scoring it based on the contextless (one might say dismembered) clip presented. And this isn't a criticism. (And certainly no dig at Spitfire. Among other things, Paul's ten-minute video about importing and exporting clips and getting a feel for the tempo evinces their goodwill and commitment to fostering new media composers.) Just an observation -- or, even less importantly, a weather report from inside my own head. But it does feel... odd. Warholian, perhaps.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

Wally Garten said:


> I mean... it wasn't obvious to me. Hence my comment. (Obviously I was being facetious about Stargirl being the villain.) For example, I genuinely can't tell from the scene what the relationship is between Stargirl and Playing Card Kid. Is that her boyfriend? Her brother? Just a school acquaintance? It makes a difference to the emotional beat the music is supposed to hit, right?
> 
> I'm not especially perturbed by it, as I'm doing the contest solely for practice and fun. But what I think is kind of funny and disturbing about a contest like this is that it follows the logic of "everything is a remix." Art isn't a coherent whole where everything depends on everything else. It's just "an action scene," and it doesn't require context and Pinar Toprak's score can be replaced with something else. Everything is modular and flat, not particular.
> 
> I'm aware, of course, that I'm contributing to the problem, as I probably will _not_ download and watch the whole show and will end up scoring it based on the contextless (one might say dismembered) clip presented. And this isn't a criticism. (And certainly no dig at Spitfire. Among other things, Paul's ten-minute video about importing and exporting clips and getting a feel for the tempo evinces their goodwill and commitment to fostering new media composers.) Just an observation -- or, even less importantly, a weather report from inside my own head. But it does feel... odd. Warholian, perhaps.


To me this is way over thinking this. Or avoidance. If you listen to how the scene is actually scored by Pinar it is exactly how anyone would expect it. There are no surprises in the music and it plays out as an action scene with a tear jerker ending. She does a great job on the series music but she doesn't do anything special in this scene. The key here is scoring the emotion. Again, it's very obvious in watching just this clip. This isn't a hard to follow foreign art film. This is a DC comic book TV show. 
People are going to score the action and that will get you into generic territory and be a mistake. A good composer can score this scene as expected. A great composer can score this scene well with just the information given. It doesn't matter if Card Boy is a brother, lover or friend. It will be devastating in the end.


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## Baronvonheadless (Jul 20, 2021)

^^yeah definitely way over thinking. They put less thought into the costumes and graphics mate.
At the end of the day, it’s just more super hero content.
Nothing high art here, although it would be great if a contest presented something worth thinking of to that extent, with much more complex subject matter and creativity etc. 

But this is not that, and that’s perfectly fine. I imagine this contextless pitch as u say, is often how a lot of composers are presented their work. Limited info and limited time to complete. Maybe, what do I know? Just dipping my toes in the water here.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> ^^yeah definitely way over thinking. They put less thought into the costumes and graphics mate.
> At the end of the day, it’s just more super hero content.
> Nothing high art here, although it would be great if a contest presented something worth thinking of to that extent, with much more complex subject matter and creativity etc.
> 
> But this is not that, and that’s perfectly fine. I imagine this contextless pitch as u say, is often how a lot of composers are presented their work. Limited info and limited time to complete. Maybe, what do I know? Just dipping my toes in the water here.


I'm not saying there is no thought to the content. This is actually one of the better TV superhero offerings. I grew up with the revival of the JSA and they are a sweet spot for me. I would be happy to work on a show like this. Good cast. Great production values. Not high art but if, as a composer, you were offered a show like this and said "No, too low brow for me." I don't think you'd get much work after that.


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## ennbr (Jul 20, 2021)

Wally Garten said:


> I mean... it wasn't obvious to me. Hence my comment. (Obviously I was being facetious about Stargirl being the villain.) For example, I genuinely can't tell from the scene what the relationship is between Stargirl and Playing Card Kid. Is that her boyfriend? Her brother? Just a school acquaintance? It makes a difference to the emotional beat the music is supposed to hit, right?


One option is to watch the show if you can get it in your area.

CWTV.com I think it's episode 3


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I'm going old school and scoring this in Dorico. why not eh?


What??!! You have clarinets and bassoons in an Action Cue? Who do you think you are - Jerry Goldsmith!? 😂


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## KEM (Jul 20, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I think the key is you shouldn’t try to write like that. Just because most of us are not as good as Pinar. Secondly they want to hear your voice, they want to hear a mash up of superhero and Tenet style pulsing synth rhythm. Just be you KEM 🙂


Alright fine, you got me, I’ll use my 808s


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## dcoscina (Jul 20, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> What??!! You have clarinets and bassoons in an Action Cue? Who do you think you are - Jerry Goldsmith!? 😂


winds provide some nice background colors... at least that's what I was taught in orchestration class in university.


Fingered tremolos are the best way to invoke kinetic energy and expand the harmonies as well. Herrmann and Ifukube used them a ton.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> winds provide some nice background colors... at least that's what I was taught in orchestration class in university.
> 
> 
> Fingered tremolos are the best way to invoke kinetic energy and expand the harmonies as well. Herrmann and Ifukube used them a ton.


Joking of course! You don't have to convince me! It's just that WW are so out of fashion these days. I miss though Herrmann textures. He was so brilliant with them. 
Carry on and show them how it's done!


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## Wally Garten (Jul 20, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> To me this is way over thinking this. Or avoidance.





Baronvonheadless said:


> ^^yeah definitely way over thinking.


You guys, I scored the clip last night.  (Still thinking about some final choices and adjusting mix levels, but basically done.) I have no problem plunging in and doing the score. But I _also_ want to think about art and how it works.



Dr.Quest said:


> The key here is scoring the emotion. Again, it's very obvious in watching just this clip.





Dr.Quest said:


> It doesn't matter if Card Boy is a brother, lover or friend. It will be devastating in the end.


Then why even watch the rest of the show, if "it doesn't matter" who Card Boy is? All I'm saying is that "the emotion," in a narrative work of art, is generally based on context, and that it's strange to try to tap into that emotion without the context.



Dr.Quest said:


> This isn't a hard to follow foreign art film. This is a DC comic book TV show.





Baronvonheadless said:


> They put less thought into the costumes and graphics mate.
> At the end of the day, it’s just more super hero content.


Right. But the fact that it's not an art film, but a generic "comic book TV show" or "just more super hero content," only seems to amplify the problem. Perhaps a scene from _Battleship Potemkin_ (the Odessa steps) or _Psycho_ (the shower scene) or _2001_ (take your pick!) might really stand on its own as a sort of short film, and draw out emotion based on the dramatic situation or a genius filmmaker's strange, compelling vision. Heck, I've sat around and watched duel scenes from _The Duellists_ -- a movie I have never watched all the way through -- just for their sheer beauty and dramatic pacing. Or even take something slightly less arty, like the "I am God" sequence from _Malice_ -- which still depends on (and later is undermined by) the rest of the film, but certainly holds together as a little mini-story all on its own.

By contrast, to the extent that "just more super hero content" on a mainstream TV show can squeeze any emotion out of us at all anymore, it requires a great deal more pipe to be laid. Caped person saves/fails to save other persons in peril? It's too generic to generate much feeling -- even with the very best music! Caped person who is unsure of her powers fails to use them to save her brother? Now we're getting somewhere. (Or fails to use them to save a civilian because the bad guy is her brother. Or has a crippling fear of pickup trucks. Whatever.) This scene is, I'm sure, functional in its overall context. But this is not the kind of scene that works independent of the larger piece.

Anyway, as this is a "Commercial Announcements" thread, I'll shut up. (It isn't, in any event, a complaint or criticism, more an observation of my own internal reaction.) Big thanks to Spitfire (generous-hearted as always), and I look forward to hearing everyone's pieces!


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

Wally Garten said:


> Then why even watch the rest of the show, if "it doesn't matter" who Card Boy is? All I'm saying is that "the emotion," in a narrative work of art, is generally based on context, and that it's strange to try to tap into that emotion without the context.


You are mistaken on what I am saying here. It doesn't matter to you because this is what you are given to work with. It matters to the story narrative of course. But since this is what you have you can choose 2 options - score it as you think the scene is given the lack of context or watch episode 3 and see what motivates it. No one says you can't do that.
Good luck on your score! Have fun with it.


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## Wally Garten (Jul 20, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> Good luck on your score! Have fun with it.


You too!


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## David Kudell (Jul 20, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> You are mistaken on what I am saying here. It doesn't matter to you because this is what you are given to work with. It matters to the story narrative of course. But since this is what you have you can choose 2 options - score it as you think the scene is given the lack of context or watch episode 3 and see what motivates it. No one says you can't do that.
> Good luck on your score! Have fun with it.


It doesn't hurt to research any project you're pitching for. While my score last year confounded those who didn't watch Westworld, it made perfect sense to anyone who watched the show, as well as the show creators who were also the judges.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> It doesn't hurt to research any project you're pitching for. While my score last year confounded those who didn't watch Westworld, it made perfect sense to anyone who watched the show, as well as the show creators who were also the judges.


I absolutely agree. There seems to be some reticence on some of the others though. It was the first thing I did was to watch an episode.


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## mscp (Jul 20, 2021)

It's a *short* cue *competition* worth 20k of Spitfire stuff with no contractual binding involved. Don't expect spotting notes to be handed to you. 

Be happy with the fact Spitfire is unrealistically giving more than a week to score this tiny cue, and do your best.

Man up. This is supposed to be fun, not an arduous hair-splitting task.


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## Baronvonheadless (Jul 20, 2021)

I


Dr.Quest said:


> I'm not saying there is no thought to the content. This is actually one of the better TV superhero offerings. I grew up with the revival of the JSA and they are a sweet spot for me. I would be happy to work on a show like this. Good cast. Great production values. Not high art but if, as a composer, you were offered a show like this and said "No, too low brow for me." I don't think you'd get much work after that.


Oh I’m not saying I wouldn't be thrilled to work on anything like this, etc 
I am just starting down this path, work is work. But in a perfect world it would be more satisfying, for me, to work on more art films/avant garde/weirder stuff where u can branch out more. As far as action goes, my ideal genre would be fantasy/d&d/lord of the rings stuff vs contemporary superhero stuff. OR as far as super hero’s go, something quirky like Wandavision.


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## David Kudell (Jul 20, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> It's a *short* cue *competition* worth 20k of Spitfire stuff with no contractual binding involved. Don't expect spotting notes to be handed to you.
> 
> Be happy with the fact Spitfire is unrealistically giving more than a week to score this tiny cue, and do your best.
> 
> Man up. This is supposed to be fun, not an arduous hair-splitting task.


Agreed that in the real world you'd have a day to do it. But this should be scored with the mentality that it's a pitch to get the gig, not "you already got the gig and have to write the whole show in a week." I mean, if you pitch for a movie, are you going to spend a few hours on it and say, "well, I would have taken more time, but I just want to be realistic."


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## Wally Garten (Jul 20, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> It's a *short* cue *competition* worth 20k of Spitfire stuff with no contractual binding involved. Don't expect spotting notes to be handed to you.
> 
> Be happy with the fact Spitfire is unrealistically giving more than a week to score this tiny cue, and do your best.
> 
> Man up. This is supposed to be fun, not an arduous hair-splitting task.


Who asked for spotting notes? To recap: I have *already scored the clip*. My original comment was in response to another commenter's suggestion that entrants were *not* "expected to have watched that particular episode or previous episodes to write for the scene." I pointed out that the scene, by itself, did not provide a lot of emotional context. @Dr.Quest disagreed, claiming that the emotional content was "obvious" from the scene. I didn't find it so, but no sweat.

I never said people couldn't watch the show to figure out what was going on. Nor was I complaining that I couldn't do so. I didn't (because I don't care *that* much), but I did google some of the characters and the general outline of the show. But I stand by my original point -- the clip itself is not particularly illuminating, and as @Dr.Quest suggested, for the particular task of scoring the clip, the options are to find out more or to decide the emotional content for yourself. (I did a little of each.)

I also made some philosophical observations about modern media culture along the way. Feel free to argue or to ignore! But I don't know where this "man up" stuff comes from. 

Good grief.


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## Baronvonheadless (Jul 20, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> Agreed that in the real world you'd have a day to do it. But this should be scored with the mentality that it's a pitch to get the gig, not "you already got the gig and have to write the whole show in a week." I mean, if you pitch for a movie, are you going to spend a few hours on it and say, "well, I would have taken more time, but I just want to be realistic."


I think it depends on workflow and where your skills vs your taste are colliding honestly. You could do it in a day and it doesn’t mean it’s half assed. You could work on it a month and ruin it. It all depends on the person, the goal, and the context I think. Music/art/composing is all a delicately balanced dance.


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## mscp (Jul 20, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> I mean, if you pitch for a movie, are you going to spend a few hours on it and say, "well, I would have taken more time, but I just want to be realistic."


Never said 'hours' (though 'hours' is not synonymous to poor quality anyhow) but a couple of weeks.

Apples and oranges. I've only pitched for TV, and the time frame has never been more than a couple of weeks for the overall premise of the material - not for a little tiny cue. Everything was very well planned and plenty of assistance was offered though -- but it really depends who you're working for, how much you know your client already, etc..etc..

This competition is nothing but a massive opportunity to score some high-quality products. Those interested will pour their hearts out, like in any competition. I would definitely join if I had some time.


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## mscp (Jul 20, 2021)

Wally Garten said:


> Who asked for spotting notes? To recap: I have *already scored the clip*. My original comment was in response to another commenter's suggestion that entrants were *not* "expected to have watched that particular episode or previous episodes to write for the scene." I pointed out that the scene, by itself, did not provide a lot of emotional context. @Dr.Quest disagreed, claiming that the emotional content was "obvious" from the scene. I didn't find it so, but no sweat.
> 
> I never said people couldn't watch the show to figure out what was going on. Nor was I complaining that I couldn't do so. I didn't (because I don't care *that* much), but I did google some of the characters and the general outline of the show. But I stand by my original point -- the clip itself is not particularly illuminating, and as @Dr.Quest suggested, for the particular task of scoring the clip, the options are to find out more or to decide the emotional content for yourself. (I did a little of each.)
> 
> ...


Sorry if you took it personally. This was not directed at you though. I honestly don't even remember reading your post.

My post was just a half-jokingly expression of my opinion over the fact that whenever there's a competition or new library coming up in this forum, there are pages upon pages of back-and-forthism about what's fair and/or unfair -- which doesn't really qualify as constructive criticism.


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## Nimrod7 (Jul 20, 2021)

I am challenging myself to score the entire thing with just bassoons!
I am wondering how it will turn out!


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## Wally Garten (Jul 20, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Sorry if you took it personally. This was not directed at you though. I honestly don't even remember reading your post.
> 
> My post was just a half-jokingly expression of my opinion over the fact that whenever there's a competition or new library coming up in this forum, there are pages upon pages of back-and-forthism about what's fair and/or unfair -- which doesn't really qualify as constructive criticism.


No worries -- and sorry if I overreacted! 

(For the record, I think the competition is totally fair.)


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## mscp (Jul 20, 2021)

Wally Garten said:


> No worries -- and sorry if I overreacted!
> 
> (For the record, I think the competition is totally fair.)


Hehe. It's just a competition that will award the winner with 20k worth of samples. Imagine how cool it would be to get that for 0 dollars? If I had the time, I'd jump in for sure (no questions asked).

Nothing is more satisfying than trying! (ie: the journey) -- at least in my personal opinion.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 20, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> But this should be scored with the mentality that it's a pitch to get the gig, not "you already got the gig and have to write the whole show in a week."


This is spot on.


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## KEM (Jul 20, 2021)

My only issue with a scene like this is that it very clearly needs a traditional orchestral score, I could see that clear as day the first time watching it, and that’s just not how I write, I respect it but I’m not a John Williams type of composer in the slightest, but I guess that’s exactly why I SHOULD attempt to score it that way, might learn a thing or two from the experience, and I can always throw in my 808s and djenty guitars if I need to lol


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## LamaRose (Jul 20, 2021)

FFS... the whiners are strong here... but hey, I guess that they know more than the successful folks making shitloads of frog pellets in the industry. Lock and Load, MF's!


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## fish_hoof (Jul 23, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Nice work. I like the rock edginess to it but it still catches the action so the music feels tied dramatically to the scene.


Thank you @dcoscina! I enjoyed yours as well. Brass was just lovely.


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## audio1 (Jul 24, 2021)

Why didn't SF post this in the competitions forum?





__





Competitions!


Do you know of any upcoming composing competitions? Share with us. You are taking part in one? Announce results, share tracks, etc.




vi-control.net





Its mucking things up here.


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## Leslie Fuller (Jul 24, 2021)

audio1 said:


> Why didn't SF post this in the competitions forum?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree! I was surprised to see it here, but then I think Spitfire posted last year’s Westworld competition in the Sample Talk forum. Spitfire post where they like!


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## Ike_Co (Jul 27, 2021)

Can anyone please tell me the framerate of the video? One DAW tells me it's 24 fps while another displays it as being 23 fps (does that even exist?) 

Sorry for noob questions!


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## Stardog24 (Jul 27, 2021)

Ike_Co said:


> Can anyone please tell me the framerate of the video? One DAW tells me it's 24 fps while another displays it as being 23 fps (does that even exist?)
> 
> Sorry for noob questions!


Frame rate is 23.976fps. As I understand it, it was initially slowed down from 24fps when they introduced colour into broadcasts to avoid the encoded signal for colour interfering with the encoded signal for sound. Seems like something we could probably drop now we live in a digital world, but for some reason it endures.


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## Manaberry (Jul 27, 2021)

audio1 said:


> Why didn't SF post this in the competitions forum?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They market everything. I'm sure it's pretty much muscle memory in this case.


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## Ike_Co (Jul 27, 2021)

Can anyone tell me: why is the kid with the glasses not supposed to see this giant robot (or the dude that's inside controlling the robot)? Is the kid related to the guy inside the robot's head? And what is the relationship between Stargirl, the kid and dude in the robot's head?


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 27, 2021)

Ike_Co said:


> Can anyone tell me: why is the kid with the glasses not supposed to see this giant robot (or the dude that's inside controlling the robot)? Is the kid related to the guy inside the robot's head? And what is the relationship between Stargirl, the kid and dude in the robot's head?


 In a nut shell... Stargirl and S.T.R.I.P.E. (Mech suit Guy) have just started heroing. There are some very bad guys in the town they are in and they do not want them (The Bad Guys) to know that there are Heroes around just yet because they are not ready for them. The kid is a schoolmate of Stargirl. S.T.R.I.P.E. (Mech suit Guy) is Stargirl's stepdad. It could have been any kid against the back window and they still would not have wanted to be seen but it was Joey because, well, you know, story.


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 27, 2021)

Remarkable there are so few entries for this on VI. Westworld had many more by this time in the competition.


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## fish_hoof (Jul 27, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> Remarkable there are so few entries for this on VI. Westworld had many more by this time in the competition.


Been thinking the same thing. Perhaps they will pour in over the next few weeks as we get closer.


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## NoamL (Jul 27, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> Remarkable there are so few entries for this on VI. Westworld had many more by this time in the competition.


I think this competition resembles the real problems of scoring for TV. 

It's not always just "do whatever feels creative," sometimes the scene doesn't work and a good composer can truly make a difference... I've assisted a few people who write for TV and was able to see the "before and after" and composers can SAVE shows sometimes.

There are 2 impressions that leap out at me about this scene, unfortunately like a lot of tv shows these days -

1. The pacing is fast. Within 87 seconds of score there are 4-5 chunks that need different tones and they zoom right by. Transitioning will be a challenge.

2. The blocking, directing, and editing are ineffective. Geography isn't established, like when Icicle appears, where _is_ he precisely? Can Stargirl see him? The scene is directed close & medium with barely a couple 2-shots of the characters. You can't even tell if the 4 actors were on set the same day. Also they're doing the "Avengers" thing where separated characters talk to nobody and the editor cuts as if they can hear each other; it all adds up to a feeling of disjointedness.

IMO both of the issues above, are pushing the score to need to be as BROAD as possible.

There is a tendency when looking at a scene too many times, to atomize it, like, I need X music for S.T.R.I.P.E.'s hero shot, and Y music to accompany Joey falling into the window, and Z music for the comedy when S.T.R.I.P.E. and Joey are looking at each other.

If you look at Pinar's final score she doesn't do that. She doesn't mickey mouse but instead keeps a steady idea going that works over a big chunk of the scene. Because if the music was changing every 5 seconds that'd just emphasize the editing problems. Even her music for STRIPE's hero shot, is a phrase _within_ the overall "danger" vibe she's establishing. She has really good control and keeps the music working on the "chunk 1, chunk 2, chunk 3, chunk 4" level instead of shot for shot.

So the elephant in the room here is, that of course JW does the OPPOSITE of that approach and it kicks ass:



But, JW does what he does because the film_ needs it._ Spielberg's action sequences are full of miniature stories of "uh oh," a problem, "ahah!" a solution, "wait now what," an unintended consequence. Because these "lines" of the action scene are "told" with the camera not dialogue, the music can really play a role. There is nothing like that in this Stargirl scene 

About general tone - I have a hunch that the guitars+orchestra route that @fish_hoof explored is the way to go. I liked your version. Maybe a little more in the *"Pacific Rim" *direction? It lets you play the corny 80s-ness while also having an element of tension and drama that isn't just orchestra or pad synths.


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## Stardog24 (Jul 27, 2021)

NoamL said:


> I think this competition resembles the real problems of scoring for TV.
> 
> It's not always just "do whatever feels creative," sometimes the scene doesn't work and a good composer can truly make a difference... I've assisted a few people who write for TV and was able to see the "before and after" and composers can SAVE shows sometimes.
> 
> ...



This is a really well thought out and interesting read. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think I disagree with the statement that the score needs to be broad to be effective.

A good soundtrack can definitely save a bad edit, but it'll still be a bad edit at the end of the day. What I try and do when I approach something like this (and I agree with you about the clip. The physics of the way the bus falls alone truly boggles the mind) is to do your best to ignore the problems within the edit and attempt to enhance the emotional intent.

While I don't get a great sense of space, I do get a whole bunch of fairly unsubtle emotional cues, a telltale of the superhero genre. I think it's no coincidence that the parallels between OTT supes and OTT operas have led to 99% of scores being relentlessly Wagnerian in both orchestration and theme. To my ear Pinar's score reflects this well, as I can hear distinct themes floating through the driving action beat (usually carried by the french horn).

In my submission I was definitely guilty of (as you say) atomising, but I think the clarification is that I was attempting to underscore the emotional intent of the highlighted character rather than looking at it shot for shot, and when I followed it like that I got a pretty clear through line. Personally for my enjoyment of a score, that atomising of score often helps as it helps maintain a connection to threads that are lost.

One example of this connective tissue I chose to use in my score was to use a reharmonisation of the panic theme (which you can hear in the pizzicato strings as Joey falls initially) underscoring the heroic flight of S.T.R.I.P.E. in the cello with a more fleshed out and confident staccatissimo right up until just before the bus is caught. Then for me it felt natural for that panic theme to dissipate, as Joey's confusion became the focus. I've almost definitely overegged a lot of that thematic material, but fuck it, I had fun!

Is either approach better or worse? Objectively not and you clearly know your shit, so please don't interpret this as a rebuke of your thoughts. Just my (perhaps ill informed) two cents.

I would also like to add that I too think @fish_hoof 's approach is the shit! Sounds excellent!


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 27, 2021)

NoamL said:


> I think this competition resembles the real problems of scoring for TV.
> 
> It's not always just "do whatever feels creative," sometimes the scene doesn't work and a good composer can truly make a difference... I've assisted a few people who write for TV and was able to see the "before and after" and composers can SAVE shows sometimes.
> 
> ...



Spot on observations about the scene and the cut. The geography is a real mess. They can't possibly see at the angles that are shown as they are too far away. Ah, well the magic of suspension of disbelief.
They do explain the ability to talk to each other by radio coms in the masks but that explanation doesn't come till the next episode or 2.
You are correct about trying to hit all those cuts being a false flag. Pinar had the right approach. I thought Dave Cosina's score did a good job of it.
Keep going guys! The fun is right there. Try it out!


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2021)

On the (lack?) of submissions so far:
I think folk might be mindful of the 44 squillion entries the last competition mustered and may fear that entries may be missed? To be fair to Spitfire, I'm certain they have every intention to listen to each entry (as suggested by the YouTube commenting) and that the comp footage is noticeably shorter than the WestWorld one.

On the scene itself. It's a tough one to score as some of the great posts above suggest. For me, a question is also where do you place the _audience_ context in all of this? Taken literally from the competition footage alone, the introduction of "Icicle" could be a moment for a sinister lift or "here's the evil baddie" moment - but in the context of the scene _outside of competition footage_, it's already been established that Icicle is skulking around and that particular shot wouldn't need signposting in the cue.

I haven't started work on the cue yet, but I have cut random bits of music to the footage (something I'd never normally do.) It's that tug between doing something that's right for the footage (and what the director would have wanted) and doing something different enough for competition purposes. If I remember the Westworld winners correctly, only one of them played it straight.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2021)

It’s a shorter cue so I’m sure that will help in the judging process.
Also @Alex Fraser from what the rules stipulate the original video and audio cannot be altered in any way which means you can’t throw an FX mastering chain on the entire thing (music and video sound) as I think that constitutes “altering”. The idea is they want to assess our ability to work around the dialogue. If we boost it with EQ or compression that’s kinda cheating. As much as we would all do this in a real world gig (or else leave it to an engineer to worry about the dub at the mixing stage) the rules seem pretty straightforward concerning this.


I’ve listened to all of the submissions. a lot of excellent and unique music POVs from the talented forum members here!

I hope everyone had fun trying their hand at this. I certainly did since I haven’t scored media in quite some time. While the scene ain’t Kurosawa (from a film technique standpoint) it is a staple of modern tv making so it affords all of us a try at scoring something that is very much indicative of modern tv technique.

I hope SFA continues to run these contests because they are a great way to try one’s hand at film scoring with a high quality scene sans existing music.

Perhaps the Westworld contest weeded out a lot of amateurs (you know the ones that said very unprofessional things about the winner and the SFA team). If I’ve learned anything in life, we all fail at one point or another. Stubbornness and a resolve to improve are two essential attributes that help one to continue with this vocation (the way I see it anyhow).


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## fish_hoof (Jul 28, 2021)

NoamL said:


> I think this competition resembles the real problems of scoring for TV.
> 
> It's not always just "do whatever feels creative," sometimes the scene doesn't work and a good composer can truly make a difference... I've assisted a few people who write for TV and was able to see the "before and after" and composers can SAVE shows sometimes.
> 
> ...



Lots of great stuff here and thank you @NoamL for the kind words and encouragement. You have always been encouraging on everything I write and post over the years. Thank you.


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## Loïc D (Jul 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> While the scene ain’t Kurosawa


You mean, the costumes ?


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> It’s a shorter cue so I’m sure that will help in the judging process.
> Also @Alex Fraser from what the rules stipulate the original video and audio cannot be altered in any way which means you can’t throw an FX mastering chain on the entire thing (music and video sound) as I think that constitutes “altering”. The idea is they want to assess our ability to work around the dialogue. If we boost it with EQ or compression that’s kinda cheating. As much as we would all do this in a real world gig (or else leave it to an engineer to worry about the dub at the mixing stage) the rules seem pretty straightforward concerning this.


I think it was @FlyingAndi who wanted the answer to that particular issue?

But yeah. Don't touch the original dub. Just mix your music around it, bring the whole thing up to a reasonable level and render it out. Presumably Spitfire will want to cast an eye over the original project files of the eventual winners, too.


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## Project Anvil (Jul 28, 2021)

There might be less activity here than with Westworld but there are about 560 entries already and the deadline is still many days away.

In addition to what @NoamL said there's also the challenge of working around the really, really dense SFX work. For the first 40 seconds or so pretty much the entire frequency spectrum is occupied and there's only a little headroom level wise.


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## blaggins (Jul 28, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think it was @FlyingAndi who wanted the answer to that particular issue?
> 
> But yeah. Don't touch the original dub. Just mix your music around it, bring the whole thing up to a reasonable level and render it out. Presumably Spitfire will want to cast an eye over the original project files of the eventual winners, too.


I had not interpreted the rules to be quite as strict as what you are saying, but I'm thinking perhaps I was wrong about it. For example, I was thinking that while obviously adding SFX or altering the audio with noticeable processing would of course off the table, I would have assumed that gentle fader boosts during moments of dialog or even some gentle EQ bumps would be ok so long as the final product *sounded* good. Same deal for compression, I would have figured that lightly compressing their audio track would be ok. This will make things slightly harder since their sound effects are LOUD.


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## fish_hoof (Jul 28, 2021)

tpoots said:


> I had not interpreted the rules to be quite as strict as what you are saying, but I'm thinking perhaps I was wrong about it. For example, I was thinking that while obviously adding SFX or altering the audio with noticeable processing would of course off the table, I would have assumed that gentle fader boosts during moments of dialog or even some gentle EQ bumps would be ok so long as the final product *sounded* good. Same deal for compression, I would have figured that lightly compressing their audio track would be ok. This will make things slightly harder since their sound effects are LOUD.


Hard thing with rules is that they can be so subjective. If you asked 10 people what altering audio meant, you will get 10 different opinions. Should you take kids screaming and change the eq of it, altering the sound? I wouldn't. Can you actively mix your music and the dialog track to have a solid product? Why not? The dialog track on its own almost peaks. Adding any additional DB of music, no matter how light will put it over.. do you want to submit a track that clips? I wouldn't. If its not ok then to actively mix, but then you bring down the whole mix of the dialog by -5 db and then leave yours at 0db, what is the difference then compared to actively mixing?

IMO, I think this has more to do with cutting and removing audio then it does changing something tone wise. Like, "he don't remove that robot sound and *replace it with one of your sound design*s" (this was a hot topic in the last competition where stuff was replaced... not harping on David, he did great). I could be wrong in all of this. I say we should just have fun and then the chips will fall where they fall. It's good for a composer to play around with mixing. It will make you better.


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## FlyingAndi (Jul 28, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think it was @FlyingAndi who wanted the answer to that particular issue?


Yes, that was me. And thanks for the answers, so I probably did the right thing.


fish_hoof said:


> If its not ok then to actively mix, but then you bring down the whole mix of the dialog by -5 db and then leave yours at 0db, what is the difference then compared to actively mixing?


I would't think bringing it down by -5db is considered as altering the original source. Using EQ and compression on it is something different.
What I did was, bring the original down by a few db and then mix it with my mastered score (with some gain riding on my mastered score but not on the source).


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2021)

IMO, it's fine to bring the overall level of the dub track down as far as you need to allow headroom for your musical stylings.

I'd put a question mark on if it's acceptable to ride the levels of the dub though. In my (admittedly limited) experience of real world workings, you leave it alone. It's the sound mixer's ultimate decision on the overall fx/dialogue/music balance, so presumably that should be "simulated" as part of the competition process. Part of the judging is how you "weave" your music around the dialogue etc.

Just an opinion though. I understand the Spitfire forums are the place for rule clarifications etc. 👍


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## fish_hoof (Jul 28, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> IMO, it's fine to bring the overall level of the dub track down as far as you need to allow headroom for your musical stylings.
> 
> I'd put a question mark on if it's acceptable to ride the levels of the dub though. In my (admittedly limited) experience of real world workings, you leave it alone. It's the sound mixer's ultimate decision on the overall fx/dialogue/music balance, so presumably that should be "simulated" as part of the competition process. Part of the judging is how you "weave" your music around the dialogue etc.
> 
> Just an opinion though. I understand the Spitfire forums are the place for rule clarifications etc. 👍


Found this on the forum from the Spitfire Mod

_"You will not be penalised for adjusting the overall volume levels of the Dialogue and FX Track but you should look to adjust your score levels first if the Dialogue and FX are not balancing with the score. You should not add any additional FX to the Dialogue track other *than FX that help with volume level"*_

Looks like a person CAN actively mix and if they wanted to put a compressor or limiter on the end they COULD. Advice is good to go back and check that things are properly balanced first and "not just mix" the problem, but that should clarify stuff for people if they are concerned.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2021)

Interesting. Seems like an emphasis on making it work via the music above all else. Still a slightly grey area for me. Popping light compression on the dub track is quite different to riding the levels as you see fit, but both would be within the scope of Spitfire's rules as listed above.

Probably a light touch is the best way forward. I doubt minor fettling with the dub will make the difference between winning and..well..not.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2021)

fish_hoof said:


> Found this on the forum from the Spitfire Mod
> 
> _"You will not be penalised for adjusting the overall volume levels of the Dialogue and FX Track but you should look to adjust your score levels first if the Dialogue and FX are not balancing with the score. You should not add any additional FX to the Dialogue track other *than FX that help with volume level"*_
> 
> Looks like a person CAN actively mix and if they wanted to put a compressor or limiter on the end they COULD. Advice is good to go back and check that things are properly balanced first and "not just mix" the problem, but that should clarify stuff for people if they are concerned.


In that case I will re submit with the master FX on the stereo outs. Did one mix of that and the music sat better with the video audio track.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2021)

Another interesting thing: I’m currently doing a deep analysis of Goldsmith’s First Blood for an upcoming podcast and the economy of his music in scenes with a lot of sound FX is master class in scoring. Harmonically and rhythmically he’s still keeping the music interesting but he thins out the density of the orchestra for those spots where this is a lot of sound FX and dialogue. I hoped some of this permeated my own sensibilities with my submission.
Obviously I’ll never write as well as Goldsmith (few on this planet will) but it’s worth striving to be better.


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## blaggins (Jul 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Another interesting thing: I’m currently doing a deep analysis of Goldsmith’s First Blood for an upcoming podcast


 Where might we find said podcast when it's ready? That sounds very interesting.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2021)

tpoots said:


> Where might we find said podcast when it's ready? That sounds very interesting.


It will be on Cinematic Sound Radio. We just did an epic comparison of Legend (Goldsmith vs Tangerine Dream).









Soundtrack Alley: Legend - Part Two


Part two of the ninth episode of SOUNDTRACK ALLEY here on CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO continues the analysis and discussion of the music written for the separate cuts of Ridley Scott’s 1985 epic dark fantasy adventure film, LEGEND, featuring music by Jerry Goldsmith (European Cut) and Tangerine Dream...




www.podbean.com


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## FlyingAndi (Jul 29, 2021)

tpoots said:


> I've been working on mine quite a bit lately and I think it's getting close (well, close to the limits of my scoring ability in any case, and also my ability to discern issues and understand how to fix them...). I got it in my head early on that the robot guy flying in to save the day needed a kind of "cinematic heavy metal" theme, so I've attempted a kind of hybrid orchestral/rock score.
> 
> I did struggle quite a bit to find a drum sound the sat well and didn't detract from the overall vibe, and I finally settled on some artificial plastic-y sounding things from Damage 2.
> 
> ...



Ha, I had the same Idea "big robot - needs heavy metal". But still our scores are very different (a preview of mine is on page 7).

I think the clean chords work very well in this scene. And I like the moment when the choir comes in.
There is some great guitar playing but in some parts it stole my attention from the scene. (Though this might be a guitar-player-bias, that my brain rather wants to focus on the guitars than on the scene that I have seen so often in the past days.)


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## LOU (Jul 29, 2021)

Illico said:


> Also to those who are just starting out, you still have time!


I want to do it so bad because it's really far out of my comfort zone, but i'm struggling to find free time for anything this days. 
I't's probably going to be one of those rushed production during the last 24h .


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## fish_hoof (Jul 29, 2021)

LOU said:


> I want to do it so bad because it's really far out of my comfort zone, but i'm struggling to find free time for anything this days.
> I't's probably going to be one of those rushed production during the last 24h .


Starts with believing in yourself and try something. It may totally be out of your comfort zone and may not be close to winning, but trust in YOUR abilities, have fun and do the best you can. You can't grow if you don't try. I hear you about time, it can be tough finding the time. Start with just an hour and go from there.


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## Manaberry (Jul 29, 2021)

LOU said:


> I want to do it so bad because it's really far out of my comfort zone, but i'm struggling to find free time for anything this days.
> I't's probably going to be one of those rushed production during the last 24h .


It won't be a good idea to spend more than a couple of hours on it anyway. You will learn more by having to "rush" because you will have to make choices based on your strengths and make them work right away... or fail miserably. In both cases, it's a win.


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## Mike Greene (Jul 31, 2021)

*** MODERATOR NOTE ***

There are a number of different threads on this topic, so people are posting their submissions in whichever thread they happen to be following. Totally understandable, of course, but I'm thinking it would be good if all submissions could be in a single thread, not only for forum neatness, but also because for people new to scoring, it's very instructive to see so many submissionsso in one place, and learn from the various approaches. (IMO these competitions are incredible learning opportunities.)

So in order to keep things more consolidated, please post your entries only in this "Stargirl Scoring Competition Submission Thread."

General discussion (not related to specific submissions) should of course continue in this thread.


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## Nigel Andreola (Aug 6, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> It’s a shorter cue so I’m sure that will help in the judging process.
> Also @Alex Fraser from what the rules stipulate the original video and audio cannot be altered in any way which means you can’t throw an FX mastering chain on the entire thing (music and video sound) as I think that constitutes “altering”. The idea is they want to assess our ability to work around the dialogue. If we boost it with EQ or compression that’s kinda cheating. As much as we would all do this in a real world gig (or else leave it to an engineer to worry about the dub at the mixing stage) the rules seem pretty straightforward concerning this.
> 
> 
> ...


About not altering the sound of the original footage, in Cubase 11 pro, my loudness meter is showing a +0.52 db True Peak on the provided Stargirl video audio track. Would putting a brick wall limiter on the stereo output would disqualify my entry?


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## dcoscina (Aug 6, 2021)

Nigel Andreola said:


> About not altering the sound of the original footage, in Cubase 11 pro, my loudness meter is showing a +0.52 db True Peak on the provided Stargirl video audio track. Would putting a brick wall limiter on the stereo output would disqualify my entry?


I seem to have read something that would indicate that something like a limiter wouldnt be breaking the rules. I’d double check with SFA however


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## Nigel Andreola (Aug 6, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I seem to have read something that would indicate that something like a limiter wouldnt be breaking the rules. I’d double check with SFA however


Thank you! As you advised, I looked at the Spitfire Audio Forum. I didn't see any mention of limiting specifically (though I may have overlooked it). They did say that turning down the volume of the Stargirl video's audio track was permittable. They also said that dynamically changing the volume or using any kind of equalizer etc. was not permittable. I joined the forum and asked my question about limiting. I'll post the answer this thread in case anyone else has the same question. In Cubase 11 pro, the video file is showing a true peak of +0.52 db. Combining my score that I mastered at -1db true peak would push the video into clipping if a limiter is not used.


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## Bman70 (Aug 6, 2021)

I think the main reason for the do not alter rule is because you need to work around the existing audio with your music, not make the existing audio change to accommodate your music in any way. Simple overall volume adjustments are OK since they keep the integrity of the track.


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## Spitfire Team (Aug 9, 2021)

3 DAYS LEFT TO ENTER!

Have you entered our Stargirl Competition yet? There isn't long left - entries close August 12th 23:59 (BST)

🌟 Learn more about the competition and enter now: 



Need some inspiration? Learn from Pinar herself as she walks us through her approach to scoring the scene:

#MyStargirlScore


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## Nigel Andreola (Aug 9, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> I think the main reason for the do not alter rule is because you need to work around the existing audio with your music, not make the existing audio change to accommodate your music in any way. Simple overall volume adjustments are OK since they keep the integrity of the track.


Yes, are right. I got an email back from tech support. They said in order to stop clipping I can slightly lower the volume of the FX and dialogue and balance my score with it accordingly. I took their advice and it all worked beautifully. I went with a 1970s style rock and roll sound and did some singing at the end. Here is a link to my entry:


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## ctrumpet (Aug 10, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> Yes, that was me. And thanks for the answers, so I probably did the right thing.
> 
> I would't think bringing it down by -5db is considered as altering the original source. Using EQ and compression on it is something different.
> What I did was, bring the original down by a few db and then mix it with my mastered score (with some gain riding on my mastered score but not on the source).


I brought it down by -6db.


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## SteveC (Aug 10, 2021)

I will not spend my time watching a bad clip like this a hundres times, just to get plugins I do not want. A cheap way to advertise this garbage.


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## alcorey (Aug 10, 2021)

SteveC said:


> I will not spend my time watching a bad clip like this a hundres times, just to get plugins I do not want. A cheap way to advertise this garbage.


Thanks for letting us know!!!


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## SteveC (Aug 10, 2021)

alcorey said:


> Thanks for letting us know!!!


Thanks for reminding me that this system has already won.


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## electona (Aug 10, 2021)

I actually watched the clip a lot of times just to see what others have done with it. I used to create electronic film music a long time ago back in the Netherlands, but I moved to animation (as a past-time) quite a while ago.

Still, not being familiar with the series at all, I was kind of curious. I think there are a number of good entries that fit the kind of orchestral type of score that is expected. A few people have tried something different, so that brings some variety. I don't quite know what the purpose of the contest is (besides winning) and what people expect. However, I felt tempted to try something myself.

I watched the clip without any sound to get an idea of the structure. The editing is confusing to say the least, but it assumes the audience has seen previous episodes so they know that there is a guy controlling the huge mech. I got that... I tried to figure out the location of Stargirl and the mech. Stargirl must have good vision because the bus is quite far away. I assume that road has been made slippery by Icicle and that that resulted in the bus being were it is. It seems that Icicle wants to do away with Joey for some reason and in the end he succeeds.

The editing could have been more dramatic to add tension, but since it isn't the sound has to help. It is a very loud clip. The sound effects are deafening so that leaves little room for additional music.

However, once you consider the sounds themselves part of the "music" there is an opportunity. The last original film music I did was also for a contest. You had to score an animated painting, i.e., each frame consisted of a slightly altered painting, which resulted in a moving image. It was an East West contest, so you had to use their libraries. I used Percussive Adventures 2 and Angels and Demons. It worked well together sonically, and I was interested to see how it would would work with the Stargirl clip.

Because of time constraints (I only heard of the contest a few days ago) I took my original score as a basis and reedited it. I will post the result in the submission thread for you to enjoy.

Edited for grammar, typo.


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## alcorey (Aug 11, 2021)

Posted this on the submission thread but thought I might resubmit it here also! 
Wouldn't it be super cool if the winner of this competition could have their submission brought to an actual recording session with Pinar and a full orchestra at AIR studios and get to see their creation born into reality right before their very own eyes!!!!


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## Foxcall (Aug 12, 2021)

Would have liked to have finished up that submission I was working on, but here in the midwest, as luck would have it, for two nights in a row, storms happened to knock out our power right at my peak productivity time after work. Still want to finish up the idea I had, but have been humbled through the process in realizing how little I know when it comes to balancing the volume of multiple samples in such a way so that certain rhythmic elements during a crescendo don't get drowned out amid brass and strings as they increase in volume. 
Would there happen to be any videos or resources that deal with balancing audio among multiple patches? I'm eager to learn more after my attempt, but feel like trial and error would take months for me to figure out how to get multiple samples at their louder dynamics sounding clear and distinct, rather than super muddy and blurred together. I'm sure panning could help, too, but I wasn't sure if there were any other tricks to accomplishing a clean sound?


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## SuperSamir (Aug 12, 2021)

Nigel Andreola said:


> Yes, are right. I got an email back from tech support. They said in order to stop clipping I can slightly lower the volume of the FX and dialogue and balance my score with it accordingly. I took their advice and it all worked beautifully. I went with a 1970s style rock and roll sound and did some singing at the end. Here is a link to my entry:



Thank you Nigel for looking into this. I was about to submit a non compliant piece. Saved my day.


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## Nigel Andreola (Aug 12, 2021)

SuperSamir said:


> Thank you Nigel for looking into this. I was about to submit a non compliant piece. Saved my day.


You are welcome.


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## Nigel Andreola (Aug 12, 2021)

Foxcall said:


> Would have liked to have finished up that submission I was working on, but here in the midwest, as luck would have it, for two nights in a row, storms happened to knock out our power right at my peak productivity time after work. Still want to finish up the idea I had, but have been humbled through the process in realizing how little I know when it comes to balancing the volume of multiple samples in such a way so that certain rhythmic elements during a crescendo don't get drowned out amid brass and strings as they increase in volume.
> Would there happen to be any videos or resources that deal with balancing audio among multiple patches? I'm eager to learn more after my attempt, but feel like trial and error would take months for me to figure out how to get multiple samples at their louder dynamics sounding clear and distinct, rather than super muddy and blurred together. I'm sure panning could help, too, but I wasn't sure if there were any other tricks to accomplishing a clean sound?


I while ago I too had the same problem. After some research, I found this video. It was super helpful. 


For the Stargirl entry, Spitfire doesn't want any processing to effect the video's FX and dialogue track. This means they don't want any processing on your stereo out buss. They recommend routing your entire score to it's own buss and putting your processing on that while keeping the FX and dialogue track separate and untouched. If the FX and dialogue track is too loud, they said you can lower the overall volume of it a little bit.


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## nspaas (Aug 13, 2021)

4.1k entries listed. Seems a lot smaller this time around....


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