# Attention Right Wing Members - Stop Getting Yourselves Banned!



## Mike Greene (Dec 6, 2021)

I know that's a weird title, but there's a certain sequence of events that keeps repeating itself. It only happens to conservatives, so in fairness, I should clarify a few things so that maybe we can stop this trend. Here's the sequence:

Right wing guy posts politics in the main sections of the forum. I delete that post, and ask them not to do that. They complain that I'm biased and unfair, often with some variation of _"can't handle the truth!"_ Then they defiantly post again, martyrs to the cause, bravely standing up to the tyrannical left. Leaving me no choice but to ban them.

This has happened at least a dozen times this year, and it's always right wing guys. In some cases, the members are very knowledgeable and helpful on musical topics, so I hate to see this keep happening. So I'll offer a few things you should know:

First, it may surprise you to know that I delete almost as many left wing political posts as right wing. Yes, really. (Granted, it's 60/40, rather than 50/50, but that's because lefties are less likely to post that Covid is a hoax.)

Now, when a leftie gets a post deleted, he doesn't complain that I'm biased, since I am, after all, a leftie myself. So he doesn't escalate the situation. He might be annoyed, he might even PM me, but that's it. End of story. No banning.

A right winger, on the other hand, might assume otherwise, and in extreme (and unfortunately frequent) cases, they go all in that their posts were surely deleted because that power hungry forum owner is biased against conservatives, dammit. So they write yet another post, knowing it will get them banned. I guess to teach _me_ a lesson.

In the interest of keeping things in perspective, here's something to be aware of. This martyrdom all occurs with no fanfare. Not one person has complained to me about any of these bannings. Few, if any, people ever even saw your posts, and I doubt anyone is even aware you're missing. Kind of a waste, if you ask me.

For the more sensible members, and to the broader topic of forum bias, there's a lot of grey area when it comes to moderating a forum. So I'll clarify my philosophy with two threads as examples:

First is JohnG's _"How's Your Life Affected by Covid-19?_" thread. I love this thread, because it's all about supporting each other during difficult times. There are some obvious political tangents, though, most of which I deleted, but some were borderline, and in some cases, there could be some bias. Bear in mind, I'm a science guy. (I even wrote the soundtrack!  ) So to the Hydroxychloroquine crowd, yes, I'm "biased," although note that I'm totally open to a thread about that or Ivermectin (in the Political sub-forum only) if you think you can make an actual scientific (as opposed to anecdotal) case for it.

Second is a recent thread where someone of Asian descent asked if he was being too sensitive about some Japanese jokes in another thread. Great thread, because although the topic is semi-political, it was an honest discussion and people were listening to each other. Ultra-tricky for the moderators, though, because there is always that certain percentage of people who are itching to pounce with their own rants about racial grievances in general.

We deleted a _lot_ of posts in that thread, and honestly, I'm proud of the result. But ... a lot of posts did get deleted. About 50/50 and _"on both sides,"_ as a great man once said. Did we do it perfectly? Probably not, but we did the best we could, and I don't think we deleted any posts that were actually on the core question.

FWIW, I believe both sides in the conversation had valid points and I couldn't decide which way to vote in the poll. Yet two guys in that thread were so dead sure that I'm biased and one sided (presumable on whatever the "liberal" side would be) that they essentially forced me to ban them. To quote that great man again, "Sad."

One last point - In real life, I happen to love talking politics with my conservative friends. Heck, one of the moderators is a Republican, and we have total respect for each other. I have no problem at all with people having conservative views, and I'll even concede they could be right and I could be wrong. (Ha! That last part is just a joke, obviously.)

But, if you're the type who thinks politics needs to be a battle, or that VI-Control is great place to charge in and "own the libs," then as a favor to both you and to us, please rethink that. We'd rather keep you here.


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 6, 2021)

As someone with posts deleted in the past, I respect the job you do. No one can expect perfection. At the end of the day, your work is what keeps this place an engaging place for everyone.


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## Tim_Wells (Dec 6, 2021)

Thank you for keeping this place going, @Mike Greene I don't know how you do it, but I'm so glad you do.


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## Markrs (Dec 6, 2021)

I normally love a good discussion, especially where you are able to get a different perspective on things. However these days I tend to just find it tiring as no one tries to back up their argument and tend to resort to effectively name calling. I am moderately left but happy to discuss with those who align to the right in political view if they have an open inquisitive mind. However in recent years with how polarising everything has become it is hard to have a reasoned discussion.

In general I stay out of the political aspects on this forum as it is then easier to get along and just talk about music.


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## chillbot (Dec 6, 2021)

Personally I would rather the self-banners keep getting themselves banned. Good riddance.


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## d.healey (Dec 6, 2021)

I have recently been treating a family member with Ivermectin and it works!

The family member is a zebra finch, and the treatment was for air-sac mites.


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## Crowe (Dec 6, 2021)

Oh hell. I'm still not sure what on earth 'left-wing' and 'right wing' are supposed to be, but I don't particularly care and I generally don't listen when someone tries to explain. Too many boxes. You're doing a bang-up job and if you ever need me to shut up, well, just let me know and I'll keep quiet. Everyone has their triggers and though I'm aware of mine, I still sometimes let myself get swept away.

I guess what I'm trying to say is,

_For the love of whatever god is listening or Grandmaster Mike Himself please don't ban me this is my home and I have nowhere else to go please I love it here I'll be good I promise also I don't have any wings._


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## KarlHeinz (Dec 6, 2021)

I have to say I am kind of speechless that this happens in hear even if it is logical in this times and in the way these people think and react.

Cant say how thankful I am for all your effort to keep this forum as a human place with all human emotions allowed but not that cruel parols trying to bring human race back to darkest middleage or whatever.

Simply thanks  and hope this wont get worse.......


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## thereus (Dec 6, 2021)

Never talk politics at work. Can we do religion next?

(Mr. G, you do a fantastic job…)


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## MartinH. (Dec 6, 2021)

@Mike Greene: Maybe this is a good opportunity to bring something up that I have been wondering. Is there a chance that you'll let ProfoundSilence back in? I'll admit your post where you banned him was pretty clever and made me chuckle at the time, but I still do miss him and think the forum is worse off without him.


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## chillbot (Dec 6, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> VI-Control is great place to charge in and "own the libs,"


I literally only come here to own all the libs (libraries) though.


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## Macrawn (Dec 6, 2021)

Keeping things civil, and also keeping an open discourse of ideas has become more and more difficult.

I appreciate what you have done to ensure open discourse and civility on this forum. Seems sad but that kind of thing has to be defended as it's under all out assault right now. 





I


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## thereus (Dec 6, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> @Mike Greene: Maybe this is a good opportunity to bring something up that I have been wondering. Is there a chance that you'll let ProfoundSilence back in? I'll admit your post where you banned him was pretty clever and made me chuckle at the time, but I still do miss him and think the forum is worse off without him.


There are quite a few people who were great to have in here but were lost because they couldn’t behave. It would be lovely to think that prodigal sons could return and play nice. It might not be true, unfortunately.


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## Ian Dorsch (Dec 6, 2021)

chillbot said:


> I literally only come here to own all the libs (libraries) though.


This is it: the perfect post.


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## MartinH. (Dec 6, 2021)

thereus said:


> There are quite a few people who were great to have in here but were lost because they couldn’t behave. It would be lovely to think that prodigal sons could return and play nice. It might not be true, unfortunately.


It may take a while, but we've seen great comebacks before. Don't want to name names because I don't want to drag them back into drama.


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## DoubleTap (Dec 6, 2021)

The best solution I find is to type out a post and then delete it, because who really needs to read the political opinions of someone on the internet?


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## davidson (Dec 6, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> The best solution I find is to type out a post and then delete it, because who really needs to read the political opinions of someone on the internet?


I've deleted some absolute rocket fuel in the past


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## Macrawn (Dec 6, 2021)

thereus said:


> There are quite a few people who were great to have in here but were lost because they couldn’t behave. It would be lovely to think that prodigal sons could return and play nice. It might not be true, unfortunately.


The truth is, I don't really notice that some of those people are gone until their names are mentioned. I have noticed that the tone on this board has improved a lot over the past year.


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## MartinH. (Dec 6, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> The best solution I find is to type out a post and then delete it, because who really needs to read the political opinions of someone on the internet?


I do this more often than I'd like to admit.


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## cqd (Dec 6, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> The best solution I find is to type out a post and then delete it, because who really needs to read the political opinions of someone on the internet?


I do that quite often too..
But like, said "right wing" person is seeing the same biased censorship going on across the Internet..
And always with the same political bias..
Those on the left seem to be much more driven by hatred the last few years, and appear to be able to frame discourse how they like..
You oppose forced injections and think boys are boys etc and you're suddenly Hitler..
Short of inciting hatred or violence, censorship should be avoided, and should be recognised as the first thing the totalitarian does..
People's views should be out in the open to be argued against..


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## Crowe (Dec 6, 2021)

> The best solution I find is to type out a post and then delete it, because who really needs to read the political opinions of someone on the internet?



Yup, I do that half of the time, at least.

Edit: Seems I quoted the wrong post earlier. D'oh.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 6, 2021)

Thanks Mike, we needed the subject addressed. The most amazing part: the political "discussions" between the those that are established in their stance will never EVER change the other person's mind. Not even sort of. MAN, so much time gets wasted on that when we can be doing MUCH more productive things like eating a bucket of chocolate chip cookie dough while watching the entire Star Wars saga for "research purposes" on scoring.


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## Loïc D (Dec 6, 2021)

As a certified Angel, I’ve got both left and right wings.
I’m just waiting for George Strezov to sample me properly.


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## Macrawn (Dec 6, 2021)

Crowe said:


> Yup, I do that half of the time, at least.


And the kicker is, people don't want the "changed" version back. They think they do, but they really want to old crochety version, that's the entertaining version.


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## Virtuoso (Dec 6, 2021)

The politics kind of gets in the way of the main purpose of the forum, which is people complaining about discounts.


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## RSK (Dec 6, 2021)

Markrs said:


> In general I stay out of the political aspects on this forum as it is then easier to get along and just talk about music.


+1


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## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 6, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> The politics kind of gets in the way of the main purpose of the forum, which is people complaining about discounts.


And bad legatos! Let's focus on the real important things in life. Forget politics!


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## PeterN (Dec 6, 2021)

Pleasantly surprised not being addressed "extreme right" or "far right" or something.

right wing.

thats nice

hope this will become the norm

not even in comments, which makes it even better


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## RSK (Dec 6, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> And bad legatos! Let's focus on the real important things in life. Forget politics!


True. The only things that need discussion are the quality of legatos and the quantity of dynamic layers.

At least that's what I've been led to believe.


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## CATDAD (Dec 6, 2021)

I'm still pretty new around here, but just wanted to say thanks for the work you do @Mike Greene, being an active moderator is a thankless, awkward job that doesn't pay too well. The process of taking "grey area" and deciding if it's "black or white" is an imperfect process at best.

The main takeaway here is that in most sections of the forum there are specific topics to be addressed, and when conversation strays too far from those topics in ANY direction, it needs to be cleaned up. No point in calling this place "VI Control" if it transforms in to something that has little to do with controlling VI's!


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## Mike Greene (Dec 6, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Personally I would rather the self-banners keep getting themselves banned. Good riddance.


Truth be told, I wrote that post mostly because the forum software makes me give a reason when I ban someone, so now I can save time by just linking this thread. 



MartinH. said:


> @Mike Greene: Maybe this is a good opportunity to bring something up that I have been wondering. Is there a chance that you'll let ProfoundSilence back in? I'll admit your post where you banned him was pretty clever and made me chuckle at the time, but I still do miss him and think the forum is worse off without him.


Maybe I'll reevaluate in January. (Too busy right now.) This would be the third time I let him back on, though, so I have to consider whether this would be a "shame on me" situation for not learning my lesson.

The forum is twice as busy as it was when I bought it, so in the spirit of Chillbot's post, there is something to be said for addition by subtraction.



PeterN said:


> Pleasantly surprised not being addressed "extreme right" or "far right" or something.
> 
> right wing.
> 
> ...


That's a good point. Admittedly, my first draft of this post was much more aggressive, and I'm glad I didn't go that route. (My first drafts are always more colorful, but then I realize making my point is more important than amusing myself.) You're a prime example of someone I wouldn't want to lose for political reasons, so I'm all for keeping the temperature down, including on my end.


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## CT (Dec 6, 2021)

It's dumb and unfortunate and as you pointed out, Mike, you can't win because giving people a time out feeds into their persecuted victim self-narrative. Oh well. Life is too short and the world is in too much shit to lose sleep over cutting out nonsense, wherever it comes from. Give them the axe. It's not as if there is no one else out there with the knowledge they might have brought.


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## Geoff Grace (Dec 6, 2021)

I think there are very few of us who would claim to be infallible. Unfortunately when it comes to politics, of all persuasions, too many behave as if they are.

A little humility can go a long way.

Best,

Geoff


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## Alchemedia (Dec 6, 2021)

Mike Greene the VI-Controller Guy!
Mike Rules!


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## Studio E (Dec 6, 2021)

Mike, could you send me a personal message with your rate for banning people. I'd like to hire you if I can afford it. You could just hang with me all day as I go through my day at work. People will need to interact with me as part of my job, but that's when I'll just give you that knowing look. At that point, you pull them aside as I walk on about my business, you give them the business, and then catch-up with me down the hall or out in the parking lot. Shit, now that I'm thinking about this, I don't really care the cost. Let's get you a ticket to Illinois!


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## jazzman7 (Dec 6, 2021)

One of the many reasons I enjoy this site is that it is NOT a constant rage machine propagated by politics. Trying to do things like penetrating the mystery of bumpy Legato, or commiserating with fellow members dealing with GAS and resulting budget problems, is enough for me. If I want heartburn over L vs R, there is this thing called Twitter that does a nice job of it. I prefer to leave it for that crowd


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## Braveheart (Dec 6, 2021)

I don’t care if it’s left wing or right wing. As long as it’s chicken wings, don’t ban them, I’ll just eat them instead.


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## José Herring (Dec 6, 2021)

I hadn't noticed anybody missing because in this past year this place is a'boomin' with posters. I can hardly keep track and spent the last few days spending way too much time here. 

Maybe we could add a self banned button so I can tear myself a way for a few weeks.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 6, 2021)

If you took a person on the "left" and a person on the "right" and asked them to write down 10 things they want out of life 8 out of the 10 would be exactly the same. We're not so different. 

Of course 7 out of the 8 common things would be better legato but that's another discussion for another day.


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## NekujaK (Dec 6, 2021)

While we're at it, can we also ban cryptic teaser videos that have no intrinsic meaning? Not talking about anyone in particular *cough*Spitfire*cough*

Kidding aside, thanks for all you do,@Mike Greene to keep this an enjoyable and informative place to discuss the many facets of music making.


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## jazzman7 (Dec 6, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I hadn't noticed anybody missing because in this past year this place is a'boomin' with posters. I can hardly keep track and spent the last few days spending way too much time here.
> 
> Maybe we could add a self banned button so I can tear myself a way for a few weeks.


Damn good idea!


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## Trash Panda (Dec 6, 2021)

@Mike Greene thank you for keeping VI Control from devolving into VI Chaos.


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## RSK (Dec 6, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> I don’t care if it’s left wing or right wing. As long as it’s chicken wings, don’t ban them, I’ll just eat them instead.


Yeah, but then we'd get into this whole "buffalo vs bbq" thing, and if you don't say bbq, you're wrong.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 6, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Conservatives are just conserving leftist policies, they don't roll anything back.


Unless they’re in charge of roll back pricing at Walmart, am I right????

I’ll see myself out.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 6, 2021)




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## CT (Dec 6, 2021)

Now taking bets on how many people will be banned as a result of this thread, come on, make your bets, right here!

*ADMIN EDIT* - I moved some posts to the Political Section, so the odds just went down.  Seemed like a worthy side-topic, and the people involved are cool, so I didn't want to just delete.


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## Dirtgrain (Dec 6, 2021)

Off-Topics - Political - Enter at own risk!

I went there some time ago, checked in on it for a few weeks, and decided not to go back. There are some intelligent posters there, but I just got wrapped up in negativity there. It's there for anybody to willingly engage in the political bickering. I'm thankful for the moderators here who keep that stuff out of other parts of this forum. Many thanks.


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## Saxer (Dec 6, 2021)

Political discussions are interesting but they only work with an eye to eye contact. Social media are simply the wrong platform. 
It's so relaxing not to have to read around annoying political statements in this place! Thanks for keeping the mental health up high in here!


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## Macrawn (Dec 6, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Political discussions are interesting but they only work with an eye to eye contact. Social media are simply the wrong platform.
> It's so relaxing not to have to read around annoying political statements in this place! Thanks for keeping the mental health up high in here!


Doesn't work eye to eye anymore either though. Been to any local schoolboard meetings lately?


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## Saxer (Dec 6, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> Doesn't work eye to eye anymore either though. Been to any local schoolboard meetings lately?


Never been. Seems I'm lucky.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Mike Greene the VI-Controller Guy!
> Mike Rules!


Damn, I'm dense sometimes. I didn't get it the first time ...


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 6, 2021)

The reason you're hearing it from people on the right more then people on the left is because _censorship_ is generally a distinct characteristic of the left. Fact. That has been the case for over 100 years. And it is often used by the left to shut up the right. Cancel culture.

I'm not saying that the people you banned didn't deserve it, I really have no idea I generally avoid these discussions and not sure why I'm even participating in this one other then the OP really rubbed me the wrong way with all due respect. Both sides should stop pointing their fingers at the other side and accusing the other of being morons...they exist in plentitude on both sides.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 6, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> The reason you're hearing it from people on the right more then people on the left is because _censorship_ is generally a distinct characteristic of the left. Fact. That has been the case for over 100 years. And it is often used by the left to shut up the right.


You mean like Critical Race Theory? Or rap music and Marilyn Manson in the 90s? Or jazz before that? Or critical thinking classes in school?

The right tries to ban and censor everything that challenges their moral, religious and political views. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 6, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Or rap music and Marilyn Manson in the 90s?





https://genius.com/Ice-t-freedom-of-speech-lyrics



Check the lyrics. 😉 Long-running dispute between old school rappers and Al/Tipper Gore. Netflix has a great series on hiphop history that is worth watching!


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## GNP (Dec 6, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> The right tries to ban and censor everything that challenges their moral, religious and political views. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance.


 *ahem ahem*


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## Eloy (Dec 6, 2021)

It is a good thing that Wagner, Puccini, Stravinsky, Brahms, Elgar or Haydn are not members of this forum…….


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## GNP (Dec 6, 2021)

As someone who has come from the center and gradually hating the left until present day due to their cheap political tactics, I have to say that there needs to be more right-wing moderators on VI-Control as well.


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## jbuhler (Dec 6, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> https://genius.com/Ice-t-freedom-of-speech-lyrics
> 
> 
> 
> Check the lyrics. 😉 Long-running dispute between old school rappers and Al/Tipper Gore. Netflix has a great series on hiphop history that is worth watching!


Tipper Gore was not understood at the time to be censoring from the left but was understood as a moderate representing "traditional" values, not anything approaching leftist ones. This was the whole idea of triangulation and the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) at the time. I'm pretty sure you know this perfectly well, and you're just trolling. It's almost as bad as the pathetic claim that Nazis were socialists that we've already seen floated on this thread or Democrats are the real racists today because Southern Democrats opposed civil rights in the day. Do you guys all hang out in the deep reaches of QAnon?


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## PaulieDC (Dec 6, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> Damn, I'm dense sometimes. I didn't get it the first time ...


LOL! I just got it NOW because you replied.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 6, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Tipper Gore was not understood at the time to be censoring from the left but was understood as a moderate representing "traditional" values, not anything approaching leftist ones. This was the whole idea of triangulation and the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) at the time. I'm pretty sure you know this perfectly well, and you're just trolling. It's almost as bad as the pathetic claim that Nazis were socialists that we've already seen floated on this thread or Democrats are the real racists today because Southern Democrats opposed civil rights in the day. Do you guys all hang out in the deep reaches of QAnon?


OK gang, bring it down to pp, nice and slow... everyone take a DEEP breath because the rookie composer put a single trumpet note down to last 4 measures...


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## Markrs (Dec 6, 2021)

I do worry this thread might become a right vs left debate and it keeps making me want to reply to comments, even though I know it would serve little purpose. So I think I will hide this thread for a bit.


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## 3DC (Dec 6, 2021)

In my experience the best forum moderators are like this...


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## lux (Dec 6, 2021)

As a foreigner, when I first read the title visualized that. I'm not helping, I'm conscious


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## dzilizzi (Dec 6, 2021)

jazzman7 said:


> If I want heartburn over L vs R, there is this thing called Twitter that does a nice job of it. I prefer to leave it for that crowd


Wait! What happened to stereo? None of this L vs R, it shouldn't fight but blend nicely. 

I'm mostly in the middle, so I greatly appreciate not being subject to too many of these debates. It seems like every election it just gets worse and COVID hasn't helped. I am sorry people have to get banned for being stupid aka arguing with a moderator.


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## jazzman7 (Dec 6, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Wait! What happened to stereo? None of this L vs R, it shouldn't fight but blend nicely.


Ha! Makes me want to stick with Mono. 


dzilizzi said:


> I'm mostly in the middle, so I greatly appreciate not being subject to too many of these debates. It seems like every election it just gets worse and COVID hasn't helped. I am sorry people have to get banned for being stupid aka arguing with a moderator.


 My arms too short to box with Mike!


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 6, 2021)

Tipper Gore… not R/L but Mid/Side?

Seriously though wasn’t trolling. I don’t troll… Just repeating what Ice T was saying in the documentary. And the only reason I brought it up was because the topic was related to music.


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## alcorey (Dec 7, 2021)

Was it Confucius that said - No bird flies without both wings.............and if you notice they're typically and mostly always balanced very well....... I think Mike's somehow related to Confucius


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## Saxer (Dec 7, 2021)

The main problem is that there is rarely a real discussion. It's fighting for positions like defending the favorite football team no matter if they win or lose. There are no good or bad sides. There are problems and there are different ways to solve or ignore them. It's not about who said what and what kind of label sticks on each party or group. Politic is about the way we want to live together and organize our town or state or world.


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## LudovicVDP (Dec 7, 2021)

Mike, If I tell you those midi chords pack ads on YT are from the right wings, can you do something there as well? Does your power extend that far?
Thank you very much.

Good job here btw


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## PeterN (Dec 7, 2021)

alcorey said:


> Was it Confucius that said - No bird flies without both wings.............and if you notice they're typically and mostly always balanced very well....... I think Mike's somehow related to Confucius


Confucius is on the right in todays spectrum. It about family, discipline, morals, work etc. He would be banned from Twitter very fast. LaoTzu could maybe have talked about bird wings.

Theres a Chinese saying that when things go well in life, you are confuciuan, when it gets murkier you swap to Taoism, and when its even murkier you swap to Buddhism.


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## alcorey (Dec 7, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Confucius is on the right in todays spectrum. It about family, morals, work etc. He would be banned from Twitter very fast. LaoTzu could maybe have talked about bird wings.
> 
> Theres a Chinese saying that when things go well in life, you are confuciuan, when it gets murkier you swap to Taoism, and when its even murkier you swap to Buddhism.


Uh Oh, I'm in unchartered waters it seems......but in my experiences, in the tiny little piece of earth where I exist, it has been.....and when its even murkier, you.......get the hell out of Dodge!! (but you have to know where that is to actually do it)


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 7, 2021)

you know whats sad?...all the political horn blowing has us all believing we have a hand in this game...strip away the political affiliations and constant appeals to pick a side, and most of us probably would get along just fine. live and let live. its just all the manipulation to get us to participate in the political agendas of people who dont care about us or the issues...

damn shame...


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## KallumS (Dec 7, 2021)

*laughs in Centrist*


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

There are times where current events, politics, and philosophy are going to intersect with music. Aside from censorship, there’s copyright law, union issues, international relations/politics, economic or technological disruption, that can be intelligently sorted through without it descending into one side trying to “own the libs” and the other calling the others racists/trolls/whatever.

The way not to do that is to pick fights with the mods, (duh, lol) and just stick to the musical aspects. If there’s a thread about the Music Modernization Act, and Orrin Hatch’s name is used, the responses should NOT be about how much he “sucks cause of slow-walking Obama’s judicial nominees.” But if a person says that Hatch basically pushed through the Big Tech Streaming Protection Act (lol..) that is fair *music-oriented* criticism.

Everyone can be cool that way and not get banned ESPECIALLY if you are a right-leaning person who has a killer knowledge of the literature, and excellent posts that really help others learn more.

On censorship, moderating a forum and censoring art are two completely different things, totally unrelated. If a question arises about what should be featured in the National Gallery, a statue of George Floyd or a portrait of Robert E. Lee, at least one person on the right, and at least one person on the left will argue for the censoring of one or the other. The way to participate in the discussion is not to re-litigate Civil War or Darren Wilson trial. Instead, raising questions that pertain to music (which trends with contemporary attitudes towards art), risks of iconoclasm, preserving things of historical significance, and the like are not only better for the discourse here, but way more f’ing interesting than another discussion that reads like a Twitter feud! So on censorship, the forum is Mike’s, but the art is all our shared experience—this distinction should be respected.


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## DoubleTap (Dec 7, 2021)

Actually this thread is a prime example of what annoys me about online political debate, which is that it’s usually entirely about Americans debating American politics and culture. Now that’s fine in a thread which is intended to be about US politics or culture (Maybe I’ve misunderstood and this thread is really only about US political views and Mike doesn’t find himself banning Tories or BJPers or CDUers or Liberals) But when it’s about something else and gets derailed, it comes across badly.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 7, 2021)




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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Dec 7, 2021)

Can we have a "Humor" section?


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## DoubleTap (Dec 7, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> Can we have a "Humor" section?


Absolutely not - it would only encourage people to make jokes.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 7, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> Absolutely not - it would only encourage people to make jokes.


I'm fairly sure the idea is to hive off all the humour into one place that can be easily be avoided! The trouble is, most threads would have to be moved into that section or they'd be empty.


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## digitallysane (Dec 7, 2021)

Two things come to mind:

Why are politics allowed on this forum? This very fact will be a constant source of trouble. Politics and religion at work means trouble;
The very fact that a thread with such a title can exist on a forum (a forum which deals with a very non-political topic, btw) is downright sinister. No matter the effort to package things nicely and sound reasonable and well meaning in the content of the post (very debatable as well).


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## Crowe (Dec 7, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> Can we have a "Humor" section?


This whole forum is my humor section.


Muhahahahaha etc.



> Why are politics allowed on this forum? This very fact will be a constant source of trouble. Politics and religion at work means trouble;


There's like 1 political sub-forum where political discussion is allowed, which should probably be fine. The problem is that it bleeds over into other parts of the forum where this stuff is less ok.

The rules are simple people. No politics on the Sample Talk board!

Unless it's about VSL license insurance. Or Spitfire marketing. Or 8Dio in general. Or...


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## DoubleTap (Dec 7, 2021)

I'm only half-joking when I say that humour should be banned online. Which I appreciate makes me part of the problem.


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## handz (Dec 7, 2021)

Is this really let versus right? 

I am somewhere in the middle but when it comes to extreme activism of the recent world I am way more right than left. But, what covid showed us is, that anti-vaxxers and similar people are definitely not the right-wing only stereotype, I watch this closely in my country and funny thing is that the most liberal, hippie, eco people are the most radical vaccines are against nature /covid is just the flu people ever. 


What about just completely banning political topics here, who wants them here anyway?


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## digitallysane (Dec 7, 2021)

Crowe said:


> There's like 1 political sub-forum where political discussion is allowed, which should probably be fine. The problem is that it bleeds over into other parts of the forum where this stuff is less ok.


These two phrases show the actual problem with it being allowed.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Dec 7, 2021)

To the geniuses crying about censorship, this forum is privately-owned and Mike is exercising his constitutional rights to operate it how he sees fit. For him to be forced to allow his forum to be used for the spread of views he finds objectionable would be downright un-American.


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## el-bo (Dec 7, 2021)

Were it my forum/community, I'd draw a hard-line, zero-tolerance policy on any extended (As in outside of what is related to certain music topics) talk of politics, religion etc. Off-topic sections are great within specialised online-communities, but things can get pretty ugly when these contentious topics are allowed. It's a music/music-tech forum. There are other places for these kinds of discussions.

But it ain't my house, so...

Anyway...no better thread or time of year to thank Mike, the Mods and all the members for helping to make this one of the most enjoyable places to while away the time.

To all...Happy Holidays and the best of everything for the coming year(s)


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## Jotto (Dec 7, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Tipper Gore was not understood at the time to be censoring from the left but was understood as a moderate representing "traditional" values, not anything approaching leftist ones. This was the whole idea of triangulation and the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) at the time. I'm pretty sure you know this perfectly well, and you're just trolling. It's almost as bad as the pathetic claim that Nazis were socialists that we've already seen floated on this thread or Democrats are the real racists today because Southern Democrats opposed civil rights in the day. Do you guys all hang out in the deep reaches of QAnon?


Actually a lot of the nazis where socialists. In the early days the movement where more or less divided in two. The north (Berlin) belonged to the socialist branch and the south (Munchen) to the right. Read about the power strugle between Hitler and the Strasser brothers. Also SA and Ernst Rohm belonged to the left side of the movement. «brown on the outside and red on the inside”. They all hated both communism and capitalism but that doesnt mean that they all had the same views. To begin with. The south and Hitler won the struggle but they kept a lot of the socialist ideas. Free holiday for all workers, social security etc


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## ptram (Dec 7, 2021)

Eloy said:


> It is a good thing that Wagner, Puccini, Stravinsky, Brahms, Elgar or Haydn are not members of this forum…….


It's funny how Wagner, now considered the prototype of the nazi composer, was in reality a revolutionary leftist. And, obviously, banned for this.

Paolo


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## molemac (Dec 7, 2021)

Have you considered not letting people post unless they are vaccinated ? Who knows what nasty viruses one could catch here.


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## Tim_Wells (Dec 7, 2021)

Dirtgrain said:


> Off-Topics - Political - Enter at own risk!
> 
> I went there some time ago, checked in on it for a few weeks, and decided not to go back. There are some intelligent posters there, but I just got wrapped up in negativity there. It's there for anybody to willingly engage in the political bickering. I'm thankful for the moderators here who keep that stuff out of other parts of this forum. Many thanks.


Yeah. I did it for a while, but now it's on my ignore list. There are some interesting, thoughtful discussions. But I found myself getting into debates where you couldn't even agree on basic, simple facts. Totally pointless. Not to mention how your peace of mind flies out the window.


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## MartinH. (Dec 7, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> Maybe I'll reevaluate in January. (Too busy right now.) This would be the third time I let him back on, though, so I have to consider whether this would be a "shame on me" situation for not learning my lesson.
> 
> The forum is twice as busy as it was when I bought it, so in the spirit of Chillbot's post, there is something to be said for addition by subtraction.



I understand, thanks for at least considering it. Maybe there could be some compromise where you keep a subforum ban in place for the political and dramazone subforums or some other conditions. But you know him better than I do.

Thanks for all you do to keep this place from falling apart! Actively moderating is a fine line to walk and I couldn't walk it better.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 7, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> I know that's a weird title, but there's a certain sequence of events that keeps repeating itself. It only happens to conservatives, so in fairness, I should clarify a few things so that maybe we can stop this trend. Here's the sequence:
> 
> *Right wing guy posts politics in the main sections of the forum. I delete that post, and ask them not to do that.* They complain that I'm biased and unfair, often with some variation of _"can't handle the truth!"_ Then they defiantly post again, martyrs to the cause, bravely standing up to the tyrannical left. Leaving me no choice but to ban them.
> 
> ...


I hope you will be strict on this of any political opinion. I hate seeing this in other parts of the forum. Some like to do this in small amounts or a short phrase that should not be tolerated on the other forums. They often try to be innocent.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 7, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> Yeah. I did it for a while, but now it's on my ignore list. There are some interesting, thoughtful discussions. But I found myself getting into debates where you couldn't even agree on basic, simple facts. Totally pointless. Not to mention how your peace of mind flies out the window.


I'm old. I miss news from back in the day when it wasn't also entertainment. As Joe Friday would say, just the facts. I've gotten to the point I only trust them to give correct sports scores and weather. 

Oh, wait. Yeah, not even weather.


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## visiblenoise (Dec 7, 2021)

I'm the sort of child that likes forums where almost anything goes, but if you're gonna keep things neat and tidy, this is a very agreeable tone to set. Glad this place is run by adults.


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## Double Helix (Dec 7, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> [. . .] Oh, wait. Yeah, not even weather.


Depends on the size and sharpness of your. . . you know, "Sharpie" (I think that's what the kids are calling it these days)


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## Symfoniq (Dec 7, 2021)

I have my own political views, but have chosen not to share them here, for the primary reason that I see music as one of the most powerful uniting forces.

Like the members of an orchestra, we are each very different, but come together in mutual appreciation of music and our desire to contribute harmony.

Online political debates almost always divide, but a shared love for something as universal and transcendent as music can bridge many differences.


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## Quasar (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Were it my forum/community, I'd draw a hard-line, zero-tolerance policy on any extended (As in outside of what is related to certain music topics) talk of politics, religion etc. Off-topic sections are great within specialised online-communities, but things can get pretty ugly when these contentious topics are allowed. It's a music/music-tech forum. There are other places for these kinds of discussions.
> 
> But it ain't my house, so...
> 
> ...


Except there is no such thing as art existing in a vacuum, apart from the political, religious etc. aspects of human affairs. A music discussion forum has to be able to address the entirety of the social context in which the music exists, or else it is not a music discussion forum.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 7, 2021)

Symfoniq said:


> I have my own political views, but have chosen not to share them here,* for the primary reason that I see music as one of the most powerful uniting forces.*
> 
> Like the members of an orchestra, we are each very different, but come together in mutual appreciation of music and our desire to contribute harmony.
> 
> Online political debates almost always divide, but a shared love for something as universal and transcendent as music can bridge many differences.


Exceptions are the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel, and plenty of others.


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## PeterN (Dec 7, 2021)

I declare myself proudly a RIGHT WING MEMBER


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## Pyro861 (Dec 7, 2021)

kitekrazy said:


> Exceptions are the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel, and plenty of others.


Believe it or not, I have a friend that just hates the Beatles...
The guy has fine musical taste and knowledge otherwise. He just can't stand the Beatles.
They exist! (we tease him about it all the time though)


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## SupremeFist (Dec 7, 2021)

I didn't even know there was a politics sub-forum as I always browse by latest posts and those threads don't turn up there. Fine decision!


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

cqd said:


> Reminds me of when I said maybe cinesamples price hikes were down to Biden's inflationary monetary policy and it was deleted..
> Must have been what it felt like in stasi era east Germany..


Ahh… perfect example of what I am talking about here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...getting-yourselves-banned.118335/post-4991748

Just leave it at “inflation” instead of “Biden’s inflation.”

1- everyone knows who is president.
2- everyone is experiencing inflation.

If making a political point, it’s more subversive this way because people put it together in their heads. If engaged in good faith speculation, it removes the political component and can invite useful comments.

Ideally, since this is a music forum, users would be engaged in good faith speculation.


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## chillbot (Dec 7, 2021)

Pyro861 said:


> Believe it or not, I have a friend that just hates the Beatles...
> The guy has fine musical taste and knowledge otherwise. He just can't stand the Beatles.


I'm not sure about fine musical taste and knowledge otherwise. But I also can't stand the Beatles.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 7, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Ideally, since this is a music forum, users would be engaged in good faith speculation.


But will the next president have good legato? You know this is what matters.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. If we argue over politics the way we argue about DAWs here, I think it would be okay. Any other forum, the DAW arguments get pretty heated. Here is is more of a "Oh, maybe I should try your DAW if it does XXX better." Though maybe that is because orchestral music causes limitations not found in other types of music.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Here is is more of a "Oh, maybe I should try your DAW if it does XXX better."


Uh, which DAW does better porn? 😭😭😭


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 7, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Uh, which DAW does better porn? 😭😭😭


Bitwig. Obviously.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 7, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> The best solution I find is to type out a post and then delete it, because who really needs to read the political opinions of someone on the internet?


I do very much, just not stupid ones.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 7, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> The reason you're hearing it from people on the right more then people on the left is because _censorship_ is generally a distinct characteristic of the left. Fact


I'd be happy to slam dunk that offensive lie in the OT Politics section. It would be a big exception for me, because there are too many idiotic posts there for me to bother any more.

You are so lucky!

In any case, Mike doesn't censor anything, he moderates. Big difference.


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## el-bo (Dec 7, 2021)

Quasar said:


> Except there is no such thing as art existing in a vacuum, apart from the political, religious etc. aspects of human affairs. A music discussion forum has to be able to address the entirety of the social context in which the music exists, or else it is not a music discussion forum.


A music forum doesn't have to do anything like "address the entirety of the social context in which the music exists", unless it's the wish of the owner to allow such open discussion. And this thread is an attempt at conveying where the boundaries lie.

There will of course be points of crossover, but i don't think these people are getting banned for talking about politics as related to music.

A thread asking how our community is coping with COVID, especially as relates to music as 'our' profession, is clearly beneficial. The moment it derails into COVID-denialism, anti-vax and Government/'Big Pharma'/Bill Gates conspiracy bullshit is a good place to draw a boundary, imo. At that point it ceases to have anything to do with music and is evidently outside of the boundaries set by Mike.

Not sure why people can't compartmentalise these things, and either take any discussion to 'pm' or just save those discussions for elsewhere.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> A music forum doesn't have to do anything like "address the entirety of the social context in which the music exists", unless it's the wish of the owner to allow such open discussion. And this thread is an attempt at conveying where the boundaries lie.
> 
> There will of course be points of crossover, but i don't think these people are getting banned for talking about politics as related to music.
> 
> ...


I don't quite agree, but I agree with your general intent, I think. The boundaries are typically drawn from an evaluative backdrop and interpreting them is partly an evaluative matter. Good manners, however, involves reading the room and not being boorish. Most people don't want a politicking bore in a discussion of sourcing hardware, working in isolation, poly legatos or the Beatles.

Compartmentalisation may be as arbitrary and as well-grounded as not derailing a friendly, helpful, well-meaning chat about virtual instruments, music and the music game.


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## PeterN (Dec 7, 2021)

Suggestion is to occasionally ban this US Pacific echo chamber, who is the core herd here, digging each other, so we get some international people in too.


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## Terry93D (Dec 7, 2021)

I've come to avoid the political forum. Liberal or conservative, most of it is shallow and unintelligent, and it's often preposterously stupid. (Though occasionally amusing: e.g. tossing about the authoritarian personality to demean anybody to the left of Genghis Khan, even though the concept comes from the Frankfurt School.)


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## el-bo (Dec 7, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> I don't quite agree, but I agree with your general intent, I think. The boundaries are typically drawn from an evaluative backdrop and interpreting them is partly an evaluative matter. Good manners, however, involves reading the room and not being boorish. Most people don't want a politicking bore in a discussion of sourcing hardware, working in isolation, poly legatos or the Beatles.
> 
> Compartmentalisation may be as arbitrary and as well-grounded as not derailing a friendly, helpful, well-meaning chat about virtual instruments, music and the music game.


Well, of course there's nuance. I'm also sharing my interpretation of someone else's ideas, heavily-filtered through my own. 

"Reading the room" is definitely part of the lilt 'n' sway that is afforded to us, by the powers that be. We have the freedom of not being constantly nannied and most of us generally work out when it's time to rein our 'shit' in. For others that same amount of liberty is 'enough rope with which to hang themselves'. These people are clearly being warned and meet those warnings by doubling/tripling down.

Can these contentious topics be discussed in good faith, with good manners? No doubt. Does it often go down that way? Hmmm... Like I said, perhaps I'm among a small handful of people that has no interest in seeing it, either way. But again, it's not my place.

Anyway...

Working in isolation? Of course

Poly-Legato? Damned straight!

The Beatles? Needed better curation of released material. Should never have let Ringo sing. Otherwise, a very good band


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## patrick76 (Dec 7, 2021)

chillbot said:


> I'm not sure about fine musical taste and knowledge otherwise. But I also can't stand the Beatles.


I know someone who can’t stand the Beatles. He tells me that the superior band, in every way, is Volbeat. I’m curious if this deficiency exists in all non-Beatles’ fans and is why I am asking for confirmation or disconfirmation in the scientific study I am conducting in this thread.


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## Daniel James (Dec 7, 2021)

I hate the toxicity and infectiousness of American politics. Like siblings that are fighting. You all need to just leave each other alone and get on with your lives. 

-DJ


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## youngpokie (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> The moment it derails


I actually agree with you completely. It should be easy to draw a line and the desire to get along wins out in a lot of other spheres.

But the problem is that American politics is more about making people angry and keeping them angry than it is about policy or ideology. Anger is the most effective way to turn voters out for elections and to get "grass root" money.

Unfortunately for everyone who's not a politician, this permanent anger and this way of speaking about politics is so entrenched and so widespread now, people don't even realize when they're doing it. It's like breathing. We feel angry and righteous and so we express it. It's a reflex now and I think probably part of american culture.

That's why I think the conversation always derails and it always will derail. I'd get rid of political forum entirely if I could.


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## el-bo (Dec 7, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I actually agree with you completely. It should be easy to draw a line and the desire to get along wins out in a lot of other spheres.
> 
> But the problem is that American politics is more about making people angry and keeping them angry than it is about policy or ideology. Anger is the most effective way to turn voters out for elections and to get "grass root" money.
> 
> ...


Well, the response to much these days is anger. It's understandable and be effective as a prime-motivator, but is completely counter-productive when it comes to actual resolution of issues. 



youngpokie said:


> I'd get rid of political forum entirely if I could.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> A thread asking how our community is coping with COVID, especially as relates to music as 'our' profession, is clearly beneficial. The moment it derails into COVID-denialism, anti-vax and Government/'Big Pharma'/Bill Gates conspiracy bullshit is a good place to draw a boundary, imo.


On that, I remember reading a post in that thread from a far-left member who basically said “everyone needs to stfu and get the vax or you’re a murderer” or some such temperature-raising screed… this long-time hat-wearing member was banned from the forum because he constantly behaved like that there and on other topics. Right call in my view.


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## artomatic (Dec 7, 2021)

"Attention Right/Left Wing Members - Stop Getting Yourselves Banned!".


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## el-bo (Dec 7, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> On that, I remember reading a post in that thread from a far-left member who basically said “everyone needs to stfu and get the vax or you’re a murderer” or some such temperature-raising screed… this long-time hat-wearing member was banned from the forum because he constantly behaved like that there and on other topics. Right call in my view.


I think the pertinent point here is that they are/were a repeat-offender, not so much the actual comment. But I'm just speculating.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> On that, I remember reading a post in that thread from a far-left member who basically said “everyone needs to stfu and get the vax or you’re a murderer” or some such temperature-raising screed… this long-time hat-wearing member was banned from the forum because he constantly behaved like that there and on other topics. Right call in my view.


A different member was the polar opposite... anonymous, and would spend lots of time crafting excellent analytical replies to composition questions. Post-graduate degree (or decades in the biz) level knowledge. Well, he's banned apparently because he kept breaking the rules over and over.

He's right-leaning, and I'm mad at him because the forum (and me personally!) lost a seriously excellent resource... because he was a person who through constantly demonstrating command of musical knowledge, earned my trust. Now I have no way of contacting him cause he was anon, to flip through my composition questions I would PM to him, which he always kindly obliged. It sucks.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I think the pertinent point here is that they are/were a repeat-offender, not so much the actual comment. But I'm just speculating.


Yes exactly. If someone inject politics into a thread, it's not like the mods come in and immediately perma-ban people. From what I understand, they get a LOT of warnings.


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## Quasar (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> A music forum doesn't have to do anything like "address the entirety of the social context in which the music exists", unless it's the wish of the owner to allow such open discussion. And this thread is an attempt at conveying where the boundaries lie.


Of course the owner has the right to limit the parameters of a discussion in any way he/she likes. This is the power of ownership. What the owner cannot do, however, is banish ideas he/she dislikes while simultaneously maintaining a platform for authentic discussions of music and the arts. The price of authenticity is free expression, and the price of free expression is the willingness to tolerate free expression.


el-bo said:


> A thread asking how our community is coping with COVID, especially as relates to music as 'our' profession, is clearly beneficial. *The moment it derails into COVID-denialism, anti-vax and Government/'Big Pharma'/Bill Gates conspiracy bullshit is a good place to draw a boundary, imo. *At that point it ceases to have anything to do with music and is evidently outside of the boundaries set by Mike.


So in other words, _some_ ideas about the hot-button issues you allude to here are okay and others are not. Expression of which you approve is to be considered "beneficial" and expression of which you disapprove "derails" the conversation into "bullshit".

I can't see what boundaries you're drawing here except the ones that build a fence around the sensibilities you happen to be subjectively comfortable with.


el-bo said:


> Not sure why people can't compartmentalise these things, and either take any discussion to 'pm' or just save those discussions for elsewhere.


It's all, like, ONE, man. Everything is interconnected... To take the miracle of consciousness and compartmentalize it into abstract categorical components is one of the most destructive acts a human being can undertake. Why does the hole in the ozone keep getting bigger even though no one wants it to? If we, collectively, were awake to everything we thought and did in terms of a unified whole, and stopped serving the false gods of abstracted, compartmentalized pseudo-realities for the perceived benefits of ego-driven, short-term agendas, it wouldn't be like that.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 7, 2021)

Pyro861 said:


> Believe it or not, I have a friend that just hates the Beatles...
> The guy has fine musical taste and knowledge otherwise. He just can't stand the Beatles.
> They exist! (we tease him about it all the time though)


The Beatles SUCK! If there's one thing I just can't understand, then it's the fascination for the Beatles. Get outta here!


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## youngpokie (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> completely counter-productive when it comes to actual resolution of issues.


Yes it is. But the OP could have also said: "Posts with fringe political claims will be removed and repeat offenders will be banned". Instead he made the HL about crazy right-wingers.

It's fine with me but it is an example how this is a vicious circle, like there's something in the water we drink and the air we breathe. The moderators breathe it too. And it will not stop, just get worse.


----------



## dflood (Dec 7, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> The best solution I find is to type out a post and then delete it, because who really needs to read the political opinions of someone on the internet?


I write most of my social media posts in the Notes app first for just this reason. It's a good way to vent without inflicting it on the world. Thankfully, many have stayed there.


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## mholloway (Dec 7, 2021)

It's a virtual instrument forum. They want to rant politics, there are a zillion appropriate options online for them to go rant in freely. A virtual instrument forum is not one of them. So, well done on the moderation, and keep it up!


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## jsaras (Dec 7, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> I know that's a weird title, but there's a certain sequence of events that keeps repeating itself. It only happens to conservatives, so in fairness, I should clarify a few things so that maybe we can stop this trend. Here's the sequence:


My politics don't align with Mr. Greene's (I'm not Republican BTW), but I've never equated a person's viewpoint with their personal moral character, unless they demonstrate to me that they're a classless jackhole. From my brief interactions with him I know that Mike is a stand-up guy and I'm pretty sure he would say the same about me. 

That said, I'm in favor of free speech, especially of those who I find offensive. It's messy, but it's better than any other alternative. 

Cheers,
J


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## Crowe (Dec 7, 2021)

patrick76 said:


> I know someone who can’t stand the Beatles. He tells me that the superior band, in every way, is Volbeat. I’m curious if this deficiency exists in all non-Beatles’ fans and is why I am asking for confirmation or disconfirmation in the scientific study I am conducting in this thread.


I like listening to Volbeat better than listening to the Beatles, but only by a margin. Wouldn't say they're the 'superior band', however. Just that any _recording _I've heard is of superior _quality_.

It's like looking at 320p when you've grown used to HD. I know there's art in there somewhere but please send help my eyes are bleeding.

EDIT: I've realized there are more 'modern' recordings than what I'm illustrating here and I still don't like it so maybe I'm just a heathen. I'm fine with that.


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## dflood (Dec 7, 2021)

mholloway said:


> It's a virtual instrument forum. They want to rant politics, there are a zillion appropriate options online for them to go rant in freely. A virtual instrument forum is not one of them. So, well done on the moderation, and keep it up!


Seems weird to even have a politics sub thread on this forum. As weird as a virtual instruments sub thread on a politics forum.


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## el-bo (Dec 7, 2021)

Quasar said:


> What the owner cannot do, however, is banish ideas he/she dislikes while simultaneously maintaining a platform for authentic discussions of music and the arts. The price of authenticity is free expression, and the price of free expression is the willingness to tolerate free expression.


I've not seen any promises made about free-expression or authenticity. There is no "price" or need to tolerate anything. And as far as I'm aware, you've never been guaranteed free-speech here, as far as I'm aware

Perhaps check out the front-page - https://vi-control.net/portal/ to get more of an idea of the intention (or not) of this place



Quasar said:


> So in other words, _some_ideas about the hot-button issues you allude to here are okay and others are not. Expression of which you approve is to be considered "beneficial" and expression of which you disapprove "derails" the conversation into "bullshit".
> 
> 
> I can't see what boundaries you're drawing here except the ones that build a fence around the sensibilities you happen to be subjectively comfortable with.



Well, it seems that it's easy for this stuff to slip-out. Apologies! Certainly, wasn't suggesting that my viewpoints be tolerated over others. In the given example, either side of that part of the conversation would be off-topic and extraneous to the intention of the post at-hand.
And no, I'm not suggesting that every thread be tightly-controlled to never go off-topic. I'm only suggesting it when an off-topic would start getting into really contentious areas that end up with people getting overly emotional, create stress for everyone and ending with people getting banned



Quasar said:


> It's all, like, ONE, man. Everything is interconnected... To take the miracle of consciousness and compartmentalize it it into abstract categorical components is one of the most destructive acts a human being can undertake. Why does the hole in the ozone keep getting bigger even though no one wants it to? If we, collectively, were awake to everything we thought and did in terms of a unified whole, and stopped serving the false gods of abstracted, compartmentalized pseudo-realities for the perceived benefits of ego-driven, short-term agendas, it wouldn't be like that.


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## patrick76 (Dec 7, 2021)

Crowe said:


> I like listening to Volbeat better than listening to the Beatles, but only by a margin. Wouldn't say they're the 'superior band', however. Just that any _recording _I've heard is of superior _quality_.
> 
> It's like looking at 320p when you've grown used to HD. I know there's art in there somewhere but please send help my eyes are bleeding.
> 
> EDIT: I've realized there are more 'modern' recordings than what I'm illustrating here and I still don't like it so maybe I'm just a heathen. I'm fine with that.


Thank you for participating in my study. If you’d like to remedy your affliction, I would recommend electroshock therapy ala Ghostbusters (1984) ESP scene with Bill Murray. If that doesn’t work, perhaps a corticosteroid.


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## el-bo (Dec 7, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Yes it is. But the OP could have also said: "Posts with fringe political claims will be removed and repeat offenders will be banned". Instead he made the HL about crazy right-wingers.


Not to speak for Mike, but I'm guessing that the preponderance of offenders are of a certain political persuasion. Not that that's an excuse. But maybe wait till he's back online and address your point straight to him



youngpokie said:


> It's fine with me but it is an example how this is a vicious circle, like there's something in the water we drink and the air we breathe. The moderators breathe it too. And it will not stop, just get worse.


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## Crowe (Dec 7, 2021)

patrick76 said:


> Thank you for participating in my study. If you’d like to remedy your affliction, I would recommend electroshock therapy ala Ghostbusters (1984) ESP scene with Bill Murray. If that doesn’t work, perhaps a corticosteroid.


I'm good, but thank you for attempting to look after my health.

Someone should.


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## MartinH. (Dec 7, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> A different member was the polar opposite... anonymous, and would spend lots of time crafting excellent analytical replies to composition questions. Post-graduate degree (or decades in the biz) level knowledge. Well, he's banned apparently because he kept breaking the rules over and over.
> 
> He's right-leaning, and I'm mad at him because the forum (and me personally!) lost a seriously excellent resource... because he was a person who through constantly demonstrating command of musical knowledge, earned my trust. Now I have no way of contacting him cause he was anon, to flip through my composition questions I would PM to him, which he always kindly obliged. It sucks.



I have a hunch the person you are referring to is registered as "Paul Poole" on redbanned, I suggest you write him a PM there and ask if he is the one you are looking for.


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## youngpokie (Dec 7, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Not to speak for Mike, but I'm guessing that the preponderance of offenders are of a certain political persuasion.


This is exactly why the political sub-forum sucks, it's like a filtering operation.

The offenders come here for music related reasons, some of them have significant knowledge they are happy to share. But then they get baited by the anger of the political sub-forum, they react to it and are banned by Mike. I'm sure it wasn't designed to be like this, but the two people who I used to follow because of their musical knowledge are no longer here because they wrote something on political subforum.


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## Randolph (Dec 7, 2021)

I’ve had enough of this dog and pony show. As a new member I’m troubled by this debate. As an American it’s embarrassing to the majority of us that this argument is only intensifying in formerly innocuous places like this. I believe most Americans are moderate and neither far left nor far right in their views. We really want the noise to stop, and we’re sick of political lies and gamesmanship from any direction. There's work to be done in our society, but it has no place here.

What bothers me more is the whole censorship finger pointing. When right wing evangelical business owners want to deny service to gays, people of color, and atheists it is their right as a business owner. When they want to deny healthcare to women it’s their right as a business. Yet when a forum owner - also a business owner - wants to restrict a music forum to music related topics so people can enjoy what they love to do we have a vocal minority lose it and falsely claim censorship. You can’t have it both ways. The worst thing is they can’t even see what the problem is with their own argument.

There’s already thousands of places on the internet to have petty political discussions. Why have any tolerance for it here? Many other music forums already have no tolerance for political and religious discussions. It’s not censorship. It’s focus. Why do come here if you can’t leave your politics behind and talk about what unites us here? It’s a music forum - period. There shouldn’t even be a political sub forum. It’s baiting this vocal minority to come out of the woodwork. 

Go start your own forum if you want that crap. A guy who was recently banned from Facebook and Instagram has already tried that several times. I’m sure he’d welcome more confused immature whiners to join him. Please go there and leave this forum to music discussion.

Give Mike a break. It’s his forum and his decision to make. Advertisers don’t want to get mired in this cesspool of political insanity. That hurts Mike and the forum. If you can’t respect that then your arguments are nothing more than noise. I’m tired of noise from people too immature to focus. I came here for responsible discussion of music topics by adults. Maybe I made a mistake thinking I would find it here. I’ll see myself out now…


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## Mike Greene (Dec 7, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Yes it is. But the OP could have also said: "Posts with fringe political claims will be removed and repeat offenders will be banned". Instead he made the HL about crazy right-wingers.


First, the headline doesn't have the word "crazy" in it. Granted, it's provocative, but that's how I write, and I think most people (even on the right) can see the humor in it. The headline is also provocative because I wanted to get people's attention. (In all modesty, I like to believe I have at least _some_ writing and marketing skill?)

Right wing people are getting banned far more often than lefties, and I'm trying to remedy that. Apologies for not being sensitive enough in how I present this information, but ... damn, do you see no irony in that?



youngpokie said:


> But then they get baited by the anger of the political sub-forum, they react to it and are banned by Mike.


Nope. Not gonna let that stand uncorrected.

Go to the Political Sub-Forum. Earlier this year I pretty much shut it down of any combative topics. The subsequent threads are almost all peaceful, including a thread on religion (yes, religion!) that is entirely respectful from both sides. (Go ahead, look.)

That's because I moderate the hell out of the section now, to the point where one of the more recent threads is titled, _"Did Mike Kill the Political Forum?"_ (Spoiler alert - The answer is yes. Or at least "mostly.")

People who used to go there to fight have now stopped posting, because they know I just delete them. Like removing graffiti. I dare say it's worked, and the only person I can remember being banned there recently is Kyle, and that wasn't for political reasons, but rather because of sheer stupidity on his part.

I've put a hell of a lot of work this year into keeping the forum clean of unnecessary politics. Some music topics have inevitable political angles (VAT taxes, lost gigs from Covid, etc.), and we allow that, of course. But "baiting" is pretty much gone.

In the Political Section (which, to be clear, does not appear in the Latest Posts feed - I also did that), if someone posts in a civil manner, we might allow that, although that's totally case by case. It's worth noting, by the way, that two of the recent threads that I allowed are about political correctness and cancel culture going too far in music. Valid topics, and not something you would expect someone intolerant of right wing viewpoints to allow, but there you go. It's not always easy to decide which topics are valid and which are not, of course, but I do try.

But to believe the forum is a place where people on the right are under constant attack is just plain wrong. And that's the whole point of this thread. Because it's that wrong belief that is causing good (in most cases) people to die on a hill that's not the hill they think it is.


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 7, 2021)

Maybe the political posts should be moved off of the forum and into a “composers talk politics” Facebook group where people can post freely about whatever they want without moderators and censorship.

Benefits: it’s far away from this forum and it’s 100% free speech.

Negative: no more hiding behind screen names. Gotta stand by what you say and everyone will know exactly who you are.


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## MartinH. (Dec 7, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> First, the headline doesn't have the word "crazy" in it. Granted, it's provocative, but that's how I write, and I think most people (even on the right) can see the humor in it. The headline is also provocative because I wanted to get people's attention. (In all modesty, I like to believe I have at least _some_ writing and marketing skill?)
> 
> Right wing people are getting banned far more often than lefties, and I'm trying to remedy that. Apologies for not being sensitive enough in how I present this information, but ... damn, do you see no irony in that?
> 
> ...



Damn, I was too slow thinking of a good joke about how you must have made the politics forum as a "honeypod" for right wingers to stumble into and get messy (and bannend), all while twirling your super villain moustache.

But for real, I think Kyle would still be with us if it wasn't for that forum existing... It's like free beer at an alcoholics anonymous meeting. No one _has _to take it, but it sure is tempting and distracting at best and the first step towards fucking everything up at worst.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

Randolph said:


> When right wing evangelical business owners want to deny service to gays, people of color, and atheists it is their right as a business owner.


This is the kind of stuff that really isn’t helpful either though. Broadly painting large swaths of people this way in order to make a point about Mike running the forum is unnecessarily provocative. People who are right-leaning evangelicals are going to feel impugned, misrepresented, and angered. It often elicits a sharp response and then both if yall are kicked to the drama zone or political sub forum.

A way to phrase this better would be “I think there are some inconsistencies with some members on the political right as to what constitutes a person’s authority to run their business as they please.”

…or even better: “why does every evangelical worship band have 20 songs that go vi-IV-I-V ??? Don’t they know any other chords?” (Cause it’s about music…)


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## youngpokie (Dec 7, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> it's that wrong belief that is causing good (in most cases) people to die on a hill that's not the hill they think it is.


How strange it must be to see that they keep doing it, over and over! So frequently, in fact, you had to make a whole new post. What is wrong with this people, really?

I don't know if they feel "under attack". But it certainly looks like you're completely oblivious to your own bias in the HL (and you're very pleasant and mild-mannered compared to some!!). That's what I meant earlier - most of the time we don't even notice our own toxic language when we discuss politics. We might even find it humorous. When a conservative, who just joined the forum because of music, gets to see the political sub-forum, they will probably feel the bias too and perhaps get defensive more often and faster. I have no idea, but something is triggering it.

But you're right, the forum is semi-frozen now. It feels like an abandoned anti-Trump, anti-conservative museum.

*MOD NOTE* - _Last part of this is deleted because it disingenuously refers to year-old threads *before* the cleanup I had just described on the previous page._


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

Perfect example...

There's a new member and he starts his post about how he took Mike Verta's classes, then looked at his Twitter feed and doesn't want to patronize him anymore.

Any member can think that's the height of insanity cause Verta is a good teacher, or think he's making a solid principled decision. Some users did just that.

But specifically, this new member is asking for other good classes.

Two things can improved here.

1- Just ask for classes besides Mike Verta and leave it at that.
2- Post responses devoid of comment about Verta's twitter feed, with good suggestions for the pursuit of musical greatness.

Even though he was a little fussy with me in this thread (just teasing ya!) jbuhler had a great response for this request, totally devoid of the potential political talk. https://vi-control.net/community/th...ive-to-mike-verta-courses.118343/post-4991614


Edit: If readers will indulge a brief aside... there was a (now moderated) comment in that other thread about how Wagner would be canceled like Verta has or whatever. Yeah probably. But Wagner was also canceled when he was alive... exiled lol... And Wagner also canceled Mendelssohn. Not much has really changed with respect to the prudence of artists!


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## Mike Greene (Dec 7, 2021)

And with that, I'm closing the thread. If people want to continue claiming to be victims, have at it.

Not here, though. Check out button is at the upper right.

Take the hint.


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