# Strings for a large orchestra. What to do...



## Tice (Jan 14, 2019)

Hey everyone!
I'm building a template for a large orchestra (loosely based on Mahler's setup) and I need some advice.
Currently I'm using the rather limited Appassionata patches that come with the VSL special editions. Their orchestral patches are much more elaborate and complete, but they're significantly smaller per section and I'm really looking for a larger sound.
Now I reckon it's inevitable that I need to expand my collection of samples in order to improve this template but I'm unsure what string library I should expand with. I could go for the full appassionata strings, which is a lot of money, but I'm used to VSL's interface and I love working with it. I could go back to the Orchestral strings within the special editions, which sounds significantly smaller, but more realistic and it has far more articulations than the patch I'm now using. Alternatively I could blend the Appassionata with the Orchestral Strings patches, or I could go for a different company's library alltogether. (Keeping in mind that I want it to all feel as though it's coming from the same room)
Currently my template sounds like this:  which should give you a feel for the sound I'm going for. I don't want to drown it all in reverb to hide weaknesses in the samples. I'm also composing around the limitations of my strings in this patch which is missing so many articulations. 
What are your thoughts?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 14, 2019)

What articulations are you missing in Appassionata?

If the full Appassionata isn't what you're looking for, I think I'd go with Hollywood Strings. They have a great tone, are very cheap, come with a good wealth of articulations and you won't be having a problem with samples being too wet.

Another option, however more expensive, would be LASS. Cinematic Strings 2 are also great for a big string sound, but only the basic bread and butter articulations are covered, so that might not be an option for you.


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## JohnG (Jan 14, 2019)

I agree with Jimmy that you might consider Hollywood series, especially if you want a bigger sound and don't want to spend too much. If you do go that route, I would strongly urge you to look at the Diamond version or you won't get a variety of microphone options that would give you the ability to sculpt the sound. 

For the money, it's still vastly less than many alternatives. If you are a student there may be other discounts, not only for East West but for Spitfire and other libraries.

You could also get a better sound with LASS, Spitfire, CSS, or any number of alternatives. They are, unfortunately, more expensive, as Jimmy points out.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## ScoreFace (Jan 14, 2019)

I would recommend Hollywoodstrings, too - very good value for your money, and nice big sound!


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## robgb (Jan 14, 2019)

If you can, I'd wait for a sale on Hollywood Strings. They seem to discount them fairly frequently. If you're someone who likes to tweak libraries, however, I would go with a full Kontakt instrument.


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## Tice (Jan 14, 2019)

Thanks for chipping in everyone!
I've been listening to these libraries. I should note that I don't have full kontakt so a full kontakt library would bring with it the cost of having to get full kontakt. Not ideal.
The LASS library sounded very impressive to me, and seems to be very flexible which is something I look for in any library. They still seem to have a holiday sale on, making them cheaper than Appassionata, but unfortunately I doubt they'll still have that sale going by the time I get the funds together for it. I'm hesitant about Holiwood Strings because I do feel LASS sounds better and I don't want to go cheap first only to need an upgrade again later. It's a pickle...
I'm surprised a little with nobody recommending I stick with VSL and invest in the full Appassionata library instead of LASS. I wonder if there's a reason for that? Or perhaps my original post gave off the impression I'm not open to upgrading to full Appassionata at all. Please keep these posts coming. I have yet to make up my mind!


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## Tice (Jan 14, 2019)

Btw, another thing I'm trying to keep in mind is that I hope to make a template that doesn't sound like every other template.


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## Saxer (Jan 14, 2019)

Do you have Vienna Instrument Pro?


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 14, 2019)

Tice said:


> Please keep these posts coming. I have yet to make up my mind!


In case you haven't seen this yet, there's a reference thread with the section sizes for most string libraries. I have it bookmarked.


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## Tice (Jan 14, 2019)

Saxer said:


> Do you have Vienna Instrument Pro?


No, I don't have it yet.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 14, 2019)

Tice said:


> I'm surprised a little with nobody recommending I stick with VSL and invest in the full Appassionata library instead of LASS. I wonder if there's a reason for that?



I have the full Appassionata - also the Synchronized version, which I actually like a bit more than the original one - and I do think it's a good library with obvious strengths, but I personally couldn't use it as my main, or only, library. It really is super fat and big and creamy, which is great when you do need exactly that, but it's bit too much chocolate cake for me to be a "standard" library IMO. Perhaps it's just because I prefer the more focused and detailed sound of smaller ensemble libraries.

My favorite string library is actually probably Cinematic Studio Strings, which is a much smaller ensemble. I think one doesn't need to get too literal with ensemble sizes in sample land, because recordings of really huge numbers of players seem to always come at the cost of clarity, texture and have a kind of a uniform, flat sound. Sample editing takes a toll on these as well - especially the short notes always seem to be a compromise.

At the same time, I think that with samples, one can get away with more moderate section sizes and it will still sound surprisingly huge. The already mentioned Cinematic Studio Strings (as well as the brass from the same line) or Spitfire's Chamber Strings are good examples of that. Similarly, I feel that most of the time, for Woodwinds, solo samples work better than unisono recordings. I rarely use the a2 and a3 instruments from my VSL and Spitfire WW libraries, but the solo ones are all over the place.


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## Tice (Jan 14, 2019)

@Jimmy Hellfire: In this case I'm going specifically for that large sound, hence not using my VSL orchestral strings patches, which have more articulations. The sweeping sound of the appassionatas is very nice for what I'm trying to achieve with this template. CSS seems to stand up to use without additional reverb, which is impressive, and makes them more flexible. They do feel a lot 'smaller' though than the Appassionata.

So many things to consider...


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## Ronny D. Ana (Jan 15, 2019)

Remind that you could subscribe to East Wests Composers Cloud for one month and try Hollywood Strings for one month for a small amount of money.


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## Tice (Jan 15, 2019)

Yeah, that's a good idea in general!


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## CT (Jan 15, 2019)

Tice said:


> The LASS library sounded very impressive to me, and seems to be very flexible which is something I look for in any library. They still seem to have a holiday sale on, making them cheaper than Appassionata, but unfortunately I doubt they'll still have that sale going by the time I get the funds together for it.



I don't have LASS, but I love the sound and it was my first thought as a recommendation. 

Also, don't take it as a given, but LASS is one of those libraries that seems to be on perpetual discount, so you may not have to rush it.


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## Tice (Jan 15, 2019)

Oh that is very good to know! It had me worried!


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## Saxer (Jan 15, 2019)

I made a VSL set using Vienna Instrument Pro and the full Special Edition. Stacking Solo, Chamber, Orchestra and Appassionata strings. Works well for me though it doesn't make a 'huge' sound as stacking libraries sound different than adding real musicians.
Large orchestra strings sounds to me less agile, blurring and rather far away... mostly like LOTR style. HZ strings would work good for that. There isn't much detail needed. Albions would do that too, or the ever lasting flautando sustains.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 15, 2019)

You know, a big part of the size of the strings is how you place and reverb them.

On my first demo tape I had three violins, a viola, and a cello (string quartet + an extra violin). I was stunned at how big a section three passes created.


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## TimCox (Jan 15, 2019)

LASS is still great and has nice, large sections. They do need to be EQ'd if you're trying to get the lush Hollywood sound.

Of course, you could just get Hollywood Strings and skip the EQ all together.

Between those two, it's kind of a toss up. They're both exceptionally playable and the section sizes are just about dead even.

For a comprehensive list of section sizes, check this thread! https://vi-control.net/community/threads/string-libraries-complete-list-of-section-sizes.71223/


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## Tice (Jan 23, 2019)

Alright, after a lot of thinking and listening I figured y'all might be curious about my decision.
Well, I found that I really liked both the Appassionata and LASS sounds the most but using a library that not everybody else is using as well weighs heavily in my consideration. And since the prices are not that far apart I'm going for Appassionata. However, it also means I have to wait as I can't spend the required funds right now. What still has me puzzled is the big price difference between regular and synchronized Appassionata, unless they plan to make a separate synchronized Appassionata 2.
While I'm waiting to attain the required funds I'm going to blend in Orchestral Strings from VSL to fill in the missing articulations, but I plan to remove that again once I have the full Appassionata library. I'm not a fan of blending libraries for the same instrument. Given the high cost, it'll be a while before this template thus achieves it's final form.


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## Akarin (Jan 24, 2019)

Tice said:


> Alright, after a lot of thinking and listening I figured y'all might be curious about my decision.
> Well, I found that I really liked both the Appassionata and LASS sounds the most but using a library that not everybody else is using as well weighs heavily in my consideration. And since the prices are not that far apart I'm going for Appassionata. However, it also means I have to wait as I can't spend the required funds right now. What still has me puzzled is the big price difference between regular and synchronized Appassionata, unless they plan to make a separate synchronized Appassionata 2.
> While I'm waiting to attain the required funds I'm going to blend in Orchestral Strings from VSL to fill in the missing articulations, but I plan to remove that again once I have the full Appassionata library. I'm not a fan of blending libraries for the same instrument. Given the high cost, it'll be a while before this template thus achieves it's final form.



I've just seen that currently Hollywood Strings Gold is on sale for $132 these days. Maybe worth checking, it's really a huge sound.


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## Tice (Jan 24, 2019)

Akarin said:


> I've just seen that currently Hollywood Strings Gold is on sale for $132 these days. Maybe worth checking, it's really a huge sound.


Oh, nice price! Thanks for the tip!


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## Tice (May 1, 2019)

Well, it's finally happened. I got Appassionata Strings vol. I, the basic edition.
Meanwhile I kept working on the demo I posted, and made others as well using the same template. Each time I kept adjusting the mixing, the placement of the instruments, etc.
I now have 3 demos in total, including a re-worked version of the one I posted at the start of this thread. I wonder what you think...
Is the mix right? Is the reverb correct for each instrument? Would you change their location in the panning? Did the Appassionata end up being the right choice? Let me know after listening to these 3 demos...


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## Tice (Aug 16, 2019)

So for Austin Wintory's cover challenge on Twitter (  ) I decided to take this template for a spin again. The assignment was to orchestrate his theme in any way we want. Given that I don't often get to go 'big' in my music, I took the opportunity to do it this time.
I'm still quite happy with the Appassionata Strings! It's sickly sweet, it's overly dramatic, it's just the way I wanted it for this template.
Here's my entry to his competition:


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## Eloy (Aug 16, 2019)

Tice,

This is a response to your all of your posts in this thread.

The VSL line allows you more control over samples than any other library (my SSD's are full of them). However, to get the most out of VSL = EXPENSIVE (all of their VI string libraries) and time consuming 
(If I wouldn't have bought all the other libraries I wouldn't have known how great VSL is). Attached is a screen shot and MP3 (quick sketch - one time play through) of Violins Appassionata. I use a breath controller (Hornberg),VEPro,MIR Pro (I do not like a lot of hall reverb-but that is adjustable for your taste) and mix the Dimension strings to give detail (long learning curve). After buying some of the other brands I would notice the sound could be matched- with better harmonic results (especially with their Orchestra strings as a starting point and then adding Dimension and/or the solo strings). Many people do not like the VSL sound (or their dongle policy) -so they go to something else. I find if it good enough for Jay Bacal,Guy Bacos - it is good enough for me.

Thank you,
Eloy


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## Tice (Aug 16, 2019)

Thanks for the reply, @Eloy 
I pretty much agree with everything you said about VSL! I really love the amount of control you can achieve with them. The only thing I went to another company for in this template was the brass. (Spitfire's 'recording the room' policy really pays off for brass imho)
I love what you did with the Appassionatas! I don't usually layer multiple string libraries, especially in this large template as I'm already going right up to the max of what my RAM can handle. I'll have to save that for smaller templates and for after I upgrade my system again. though I'm weary of it sounding artificial. (you do add a significant number of players with different mic positions. It has the potential to sound unnatural.)
It's going to take a long time before I can afford all of VSL's libraries, but I definitely want to get there...


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## eph221 (Aug 18, 2019)

Tice said:


> No, I don't have it yet.


This.


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## WorshipMaestro (Aug 19, 2019)

Hey Tice,
I listened to all of your demos in the various postings on this thread. There is some very nice work! One thing that didn't work for me though was the trumpets: they didn't sound like they were part of the same ensemble as the strings and winds. I think a big part of that was that the panning was too far right, making them sound like they were in a different room.


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## Tice (Aug 19, 2019)

Good call on that! Thanks for taking the time to study the tracks!


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## WorshipMaestro (Aug 20, 2019)

Tice said:


> Good call on that! Thanks for taking the time to study the tracks!


My pleasure!


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## tcb (Aug 21, 2019)

Hi Tice. I have some advice to achieve a larger sound.
First, you can try an ambiance type reverb（a reverb type with fast release and small predelay）. You can find them in any reverb plugin. This will add a volume to an instrument. Combine them with a long reverb.
Second，you can layer a solo or another ensemble library. Usually, it's easy to sound natural, especially you are using dry samples and add reverb by yourself.
Third, try to do some EQ. Gain around 250Hz may works.
I hope this reply can help you


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## Tice (Aug 21, 2019)

Thank you tcb! I'm really happy with the feedback I'm getting in this thread. I do have some limitations I am running into. Mainly I'm running out of memory, so layering the strings is outside of the scope of what I can currently do. I'm looking to remedy it, but other expenses are also getting in the way of a memory upgrade. But the reverb and EQ advice is definitely possible to for me, and I'll be trying those!


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## tcb (Aug 22, 2019)

Tice said:


> Thank you tcb! I'm really happy with the feedback I'm getting in this thread. I do have some limitations I am running into. Mainly I'm running out of memory, so layering the strings is outside of the scope of what I can currently do. I'm looking to remedy it, but other expenses are also getting in the way of a memory upgrade. But the reverb and EQ advice is definitely possible to for me, and I'll be trying those!


：）


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## Tice (Dec 28, 2019)

I'm back with another piece written for the same template, which I continued to finetune. I've been dabbling with adding compression also in order to give the sound just a tad more 'body'. I'm looking for ways to take this to the next level, so any feedback would be most welcome.

The following piece was written as though part of an action sequence of sorts in a movie. There are several themes that follow each other in quick succession and lots of things are happening. I felt it was a good way of putting the entire orchestra through it's paces and see how flexible I can make it without losing a sense of cohesion.


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## Tice (Dec 30, 2019)

Now, the silence COULD mean that the piece is perfect and there's nothing to improve... but I doubt it


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## AndyP (Dec 30, 2019)

WorshipMaestro said:


> Hey Tice,
> I listened to all of your demos in the various postings on this thread. There is some very nice work! One thing that didn't work for me though was the trumpets: they didn't sound like they were part of the same ensemble as the strings and winds. I think a big part of that was that the panning was too far right, making them sound like they were in a different room.


I thought the same thing in the Hero title. The staccatos sound a bit thin and unnatural. In my opinion the short trumpets are a weak point of VSL.
Otherwise good work!


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## Tice (Dec 30, 2019)

In the latest demo I changed the reverb on the trumpets, hoping that'd make them sound better. I also slightly shifted their panning. (not by much) 
They're actually from the Spitfire orchestral brass library. The ones from VSL I just couldn't get the right sound out of, even though in many other areas they are extremely versatile.
Do you think the difference between the trumpets in the old demos versus the latest one is enough?


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## AndyP (Dec 30, 2019)

Tice said:


> In the latest demo I changed the reverb on the trumpets, hoping that'd make them sound better. I also slightly shifted their panning. (not by much)
> They're actually from the Spitfire orchestral brass library. The ones from VSL I just couldn't get the right sound out of, even though in many other areas they are extremely versatile.
> Do you think the difference between the trumpets in the old demos versus the latest one is enough?


The difference is audible and better in the last track. Whereby the trumpets have a bit much vibrato for my taste.


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## Tice (Dec 30, 2019)

It also should be said there's only 3 of them most of the time. Not the much larger sections you might find in a JunkieXL score.


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## Tice (Dec 30, 2019)

AndyP said:


> The difference is audible and better in the last track. Whereby the trumpets have a bit much vibrato for my taste.


Yeah, the vibrato really needs to be kept under control, I know what you mean. It's still in there, but I want it more in key moments.


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## Tice (Jan 8, 2020)

It seems to be at acceptable levels judging by the feedback I've gotten so far (here and elsewhere) so I'll be posting it publicly rather than privately, as it's currently set, soon.
Overall I'm very glad I went for this setup based on a larger Mahler-type orchestra. Having had to go back to a much smaller orchestral setup for other projects I really miss having a double-sized woodwinds section on those. I've also grown quite fond of the very large string sections of the Appassionata strings. I can't wait to upgrade them from my current basic library edition of part I, to having both parts in full.
Once I upgrade my memory from 16 gb to 32 gb I'll also be adding a choir to it, and a good solo violin and piano. But as it stands I'm right up against the maximum RAM use available to me.

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback! Without feedback it's so much harder to grow as a creative!
Of course it's never too late to add your 2 cents to it, so please do! Also, if you have any requests of music you'd like to see me try using this template, feel free to suggest it.


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