# Over-orchestration?



## tokatila (Feb 5, 2017)

I have been doing this piece for a while titled "Horizontal Development: Zero" (should give you an idea... 

I have been banging my head against the wall since while the beginning seems to be ok I'm having a very difficult time to finish the song. Since I'm focused on purely vertical development with this piece, my hunch is that I start it too big and can't add anymore stuff without making it a sonic mess (instruments fighting each other both EQ and listening wise and I'm no Alan Meyerson to fix it in the mixing stage).

So I'm going to build it again from the scratch and this time start smaller and see if that solves my problems. 

Do you have problems or tendencies to over-orchestrate? Even better, how did you cure yourself?


----------



## Mithrandir (Feb 5, 2017)

The more you think of orchestration in terms of certain formulas that can be varied/improved upon, the more fluid that part of the process becomes and the more you'll be able to focus on the purely musical elements of a piece.

Also, it's only natural that beginning (film/other media/concert) composers have a tendency to over-orchestrate. In the best case they've spent time studying all the various possibilities in terms of timbre, combinations, (extended) techniques and so forth, so of course, there's this will to showcase all of that hard work all at once. Huge orchestral templates/score templates (think of the Pacific/Judy Green/Valle pads) only contribute to this further by insinuating too many options/choices.

This is why starting with a blank slate (i.e. a template with all tracks hidden, a blank score pad, simple trying to conceive an idea and then heading toward the computer/piano, etc.) is so important.

Over-orchestration can be tasteful when done skillfully. Take North's Cleopatra and Spartacus, for example.


----------



## Leandro Gardini (Feb 5, 2017)

I am not sure how you are orchestrating it but to me it is always better when I orchestrate in the notation software first and then go to production. 
When you put the notes in the score you can literally see a wider perspective of what you are doing and have a better control over your orchestration.


----------



## pbattersby (Feb 5, 2017)

Perhaps what you have is not the beginning but the ending. Instead of trying to make what you already have, bigger, perhaps what you need to do is keep it as the climax and instead take away parts from it to create a smaller beginning.

I tend to orchestrate songs with verses and choruses and I want the orchestration to build. So if I've ended up with big orchestration for the first chorus with no where to go, I move that music to the last chorus and then take things away to make a smaller first chorus.


----------



## pmcrockett (Feb 5, 2017)

I've always tended toward over-orchestration, and one of the things that has helped me is moving as far away from samples and automated playback as possible during the composing/orchestrating stage. I used to end up compensating for exposed samples and robotic playback by adding more and more stuff to the orchestration to mask the problems I heard. Writing at the piano makes it easier to remember that exposed solo lines are every bit as beautiful as dense orchestration, and I can put off struggling with the samples until after the writing is finished and will no longer be influenced by it.


----------



## Rodney Money (Feb 5, 2017)

A composer never over-orchestrates, Mr. Happy, nor does he under-orchestrates, he orchestrates precisely what he means to.


----------



## mwarsell (Feb 5, 2017)

douggibson said:


> Can you please elaborate on what you meaning is here ?



Just some sagely advice from an old geezer.


----------



## WhiteNoiz (Feb 5, 2017)

Noone will mess with my 180 horns unison! 

@douggibson 

What do you think the main problem is with that? The many different consecutive measures/extra detailed notes on instruments (other than bass, vib and cymbal sharing the same staves)? Or am I missing something? Because, otherwise, the music itself looks rather sparse to me. I did like that "highest possible note" and instant sfffffffz to p though. 

Anyway, I think the main thing is if you feel something is contributed. If not, take it away.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 6, 2017)

Over-orchestration happens easily when working on a single part and loosing the overall look to the complete track or project. A healthy deadline often helps to write/produce in a more economic way.


----------



## Rodney Money (Feb 7, 2017)

douggibson said:


> Gee.... now I am even more in the dark. ???


----------



## Rodney Money (Feb 7, 2017)

douggibson said:


> I am not following at all. I asked if you would please elaborate on what you posted so I could I know what you meant by your statement. (as opposed to a mis-interpretation on my part of what you are stating). Simply was trying to listen to your comment with an open mind.


It's a Lord of the Rings quote from Gandalf. Sometimes we composers are wizards.


----------



## Rodney Money (Feb 7, 2017)

douggibson said:


> OH ! Thank you for letting me know. I have never seen any of the films, so...... right over my head.
> Got it. Thanks


My pleasure, and you need to go watch them. They will change your life.


----------



## tokatila (Feb 7, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> It's a Lord of the Rings quote from Gandalf. Sometimes we composers are wizards.



See what you have done. You have derailed...my precious...thread.


----------



## Rohann (Feb 16, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> My pleasure, and you need to go watch them. They will change your life.


Easily one of the most effective, thoughtful and memorable scores ever written.


----------



## ZenFaced (Feb 17, 2017)

Good thread. Over-orchestration is something I still struggle with constantly. So many options. I always have to remind myself - its not about how intricate or complex the piece is which determines how good it is. All that really matters is - how does it sound? The problem is, even after asking myself that question I continue to ask myself what else should be added. Orchestration has a lot in common with mixing and I still don't have the confidence in knowing when its done and when to move on. I am hoping with enough experience over time this will be less of an issue.


----------



## Dave Connor (Feb 17, 2017)

The easiest fix is often reducing the idea down to it's basic parts. If it's a three note chord and melody consider the smallest orchestration of it such as strings with flute on melody. Then a vertical expansion in the outer voices: Basses double Cello below and flute is doubled with another flute an octave above: an incremental expansion with no coloristic change. It's more about the thought process of considering the least orchestral texture and weight to the the next size to the next etc. From Mozart to Mahler so to speak.


----------



## gregh (Feb 17, 2017)

I tend to follow the line that if I'm not sure whether something adds to the piece then I throw it out. That is, I err on the side of getting rid of stuff. Of course that's after putting a lot in to begin with  But then I tend to write very spare music


----------



## ZenFaced (Feb 17, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> The easiest fix is often reducing the idea down to it's basic parts. If it's a three note chord and melody consider the smallest orchestration of it such as strings with flute on melody. Then a vertical expansion in the outer voices: Basses double Cello below and flute is doubled with another flute an octave above: an incremental expansion with no coloristic change. It's more about the thought process of considering the least orchestral texture and weight to the the next size to the next etc. From Mozart to Mahler so to speak.



Nice tip Dave. Baby steps

I have been analyzing some of John Williams scores and I am awestruck at the orchestration, I mean it's perfect. I wouldn't change a thing. But how can you be so perfect. If my options are limited and I was forced to write for just one section I'm fine but when I'm staring at a blank page for full orchestra I feel overwhelmed on how to fully enlarge and orchestrate the piano sketch I just made

The tutti in Star Wars main title beginning. It's all b flats but then he throws an f on trumpet. Why the trumpet and not the bassoon? But it sounds perfect.


----------

