# Is anyone here with GEMA (German PRO)?



## Desire Inspires (Jan 29, 2019)

I am exploring if I should go with BMI or join a European PRO. 

Any insight as to if they are a better company than American or other European PROs?


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 4, 2019)

If you want to work in the video game industry I would strongly advise you against GEMA.
Appart from that the GEMA is very good for getting your license fees.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 4, 2019)

Thanks for the advice. I think I will choose them. I don’t do anything with video games, so GEMA sounds like a solid PRO for me.


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## FriFlo (Feb 4, 2019)

I don't want to talk against GEMA, as I value their work. But you should know that as long as you are a member of GEMA you may not write music for anything without GEMAs participation! In theory, that is a good thing, as composers cannot compete with you by putting down the price under a certain value. In theory, it should also help that you can't get payed peanuts for a project that sells big!
Practically speaking, I lost a job that would have paid handsomely, just because I was honest about the GEMA thing. I later found out, several colleagues also with GEMA membership took jobs from the same provider, just not mentioning their GEMA membership! Even worse so, in the contract they had to guarantee that they could sell the rights of usage to their music, which means, they broke the law. So, maybe you can see, why I said so many times "in theory". If you are not an A-lister, crooks like that may not be important to be like you. Or, you just realize, that everyone in this business just bends the law as the situation seems to fit ... and adapt and stop being concerned about something like law.
I did care about acting according to law in the situation and it cost me a well paid job with probably follow up jobs every year. Due to my honesty, now some German composer without GEMA attachment does these jobs. Before me, all of the composers were GEMA members in violation of law. But being honest didn't prove to be the right thing, from a carrier standpoint! If I would have just lied about it, nobody would have cared and I would be one big job per year ahead of now. Take whatever you want as a lesson from that bitter story of mine!


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## MartinH. (Feb 4, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> I don't want to talk against GEMA, as I value their work. But you should know that as long as you are a member of GEMA you may not write music for anything without GEMAs participation! In theory, that is a good thing, as composers cannot compete with you by putting down the price under a certain value. In theory, it should also help that you can't get payed peanuts for a project that sells big!
> Practically speaking, I lost a job that would have paid handsomely, just because I was honest about the GEMA thing. I later found out, several colleagues also with GEMA membership took jobs from the same provider, just not mentioning their GEMA membership! Even worse so, in the contract they had to guarantee that they could sell the rights of usage to their music, which means, they broke the law. So, maybe you can see, why I said so many times "in theory". If you are not an A-lister, crooks like that may not be important to be like you. Or, you just realize, that everyone in this business just bends the law as the situation seems to fit ... and adapt and stop being concerned about something like law.
> I did care about acting according to law in the situation and it cost me a well paid job with probably follow up jobs every year. Due to my honesty, now some German composer without GEMA attachment does these jobs. Before me, all of the composers were GEMA members in violation of law. But being honest didn't prove to be the right thing, from a carrier standpoint! If I would have just lied about it, nobody would have cared and I would be one big job per year ahead of now. Take whatever you want as a lesson from that bitter story of mine!



I've heard of "workarounds" to that issue where you take the credit and cash for "orchestrating" and you partner up with someone who isn't a GEMA member to take the credit for "composing" (but not actually do it) and gets a small cut of your money for lending their name. I would advise against straight up lying about GEMA membership because it could get ugly if they start collecting from a client to whom you contractually promised that this won't happen...
For what it's worth I think you did the right thing being honest and missing out on a good gig.


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## JEPA (Feb 4, 2019)

Nils Neumann said:


> If you want to work in the video game industry I would strongly advise you against GEMA.
> Appart from that the GEMA is very good for getting your license fees.


Could you explain further about video game industry not choosing GEMA? Thank you!


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## FriFlo (Feb 4, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I've heard of "workarounds" to that issue where you take the credit and cash for "orchestrating" and you partner up with someone who isn't a GEMA member to take the credit for "composing" (but not actually do it) and gets a small cut of your money for lending their name. I would advise against straight up lying about GEMA membership because it could get ugly if they start collecting from a client to whom you contractually promised that this won't happen...
> For what it's worth I think you did the right thing being honest and missing out on a good gig.


Yup! I know some so-called workarounds for these situations exist. But let us be honest here ... those workarounds mainly work for well established composers with the legal means to find out about those. And it is also a "workaround" to stash some of your money on Cayman Islands or a Swiss bank account ... it still feels like cheating, if you ask me.


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## FriFlo (Feb 4, 2019)

JEPA said:


> Could you explain further about video game industry not choosing GEMA? Thank you!


That is pretty much what it comes down to: Suppose you have a company and they have a certain product, like a DVD which is supposed to be marketed world wide. If they choose a GEMA-composer, there are fixed rates on this project per media they sell (suppose they don't even sell it, because it is advertisement material, the minimum charge per media still applies). Now, if this company can avoid all of these costs per media by making a deal for a one-time payment - what do you think they will prefer? If all film composers in the world would decline an offer like that, the GEMA would do a very good job for all composers, as they would help every composer to keep up the value of their work. 
But that is utopia! Af course, they will find a lot of composers who will gladly do that for a one-time payment - even decent composers, in case their offer isn't to shabby! 
That is pretty much the case for all video games! Those companies will only work with contracts where they can precisely define their costs, independently of sold copies. Not fair, if you ask me, as they should let all creatives participate in a potential success of their product, if you ask me. But it simply is how it works and no GEMA or any other PRO has the means to do anything against it.


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## SDCP (Feb 4, 2019)

I am a member of GEMA and ASCAP. I have had no problems with GEMA. The only issue you may have with GEMA, is that most of their correspondence to their members is in German. If you don't read German, you will have to have the documents translated.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 4, 2019)

SDCP said:


> I am a member of GEMA and ASCAP. I have had no problems with GEMA. The only issue you may have with GEMA, is that most of their correspondence to their members is in German. If you don't read German, you will have to have the documents translated.



Okay. I am a Yankee (God Bless 'Merica  ), so I only read and write in English. Would PRS be a better PRO for me to join?


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> But it simply is how it works and no GEMA or any other PRO has the means to do anything against it.


Till the law changes


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## Saxer (Feb 5, 2019)

There are standard GEMA contracts that includes all your composing output. But if you contact them directly there is the possibility to have individual contracts that exclude parts of your composition (i.e. stuff published in US goes to BMI). I don't have such a contract but I know it's possible.


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## babylonwaves (Feb 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Yup! I know some so-called workarounds for these situations exist. But let us be honest here ... those workarounds mainly work for well established composers with the legal means to find out about those. And it is also a "workaround" to stash some of your money on Cayman Islands or a Swiss bank account ... it still feels like cheating, if you ask me.


you don't need a workaround. you quit GEMA and join e.g ASCAP or BMI. they offer the flexibility you require these days.


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## FriFlo (Feb 5, 2019)

babylonwaves said:


> you don't need a workaround. you quit GEMA and join e.g ASCAP or BMI. they offer the flexibility you require these days.


You may be right. But then - as soon as you get a lot of jobs aired on German TV, other PROs are inferior to GEMA, as far as I know. The problem is only, you don't know where you will be most successful. That is why I said, I do not want to talk against GEMA. There are just a bunch of rules that don't make sense and cause a lot of composers acting against the law. The GEMA does not do anything against that misuse as far as I can see. That is what I call a double standard and I don't feel comfortable with that.


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## FriFlo (Feb 5, 2019)

Saxer said:


> There are standard GEMA contracts that includes all your composing output. But if you contact them directly there is the possibility to have individual contracts that exclude parts of your composition (i.e. stuff published in US goes to BMI). I don't have such a contract but I know it's possible.


Yes! Great for somebody who is already strong in business, but doesn't help you, if you are just starting out. The minute you get offered a job, you realize you should have chosen a different contract, but how would you have known in advance? Well, I suppose there are people smarter with things like that than I am. But at least in my mind, GEMA should offer conditions for their composers to thrive - especially, if they are just starting to have their first success ... call me naive!


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## SDCP (Feb 5, 2019)

Saxer said:


> There are standard GEMA contracts that includes all your composing output. But if you contact them directly there is the possibility to have individual contracts that exclude parts of your composition (i.e. stuff published in US goes to BMI). I don't have such a contract but I know it's possible.


I have such a contract, and it is possible. ASCAP collects my royalties for North America (USA, Canada and Mexico), and GEMA collects for "rest of world." You just have to ask each PRO to draw up an agreement for their area of the world.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> You may be right. But then - as soon as you get a lot of jobs aired on German TV, other PROs are inferior to GEMA, as far as I know. The problem is only, you don't know where you will be most successful. That is why I said, I do not want to talk against GEMA. There are just a bunch of rules that don't make sense and cause a lot of composers acting against the law. The GEMA does not do anything against that misuse as far as I can see. That is what I call a double standard and I don't feel comfortable with that.



You should stay with GEMA and follow their rules. That makes the most sense and is the right thing to do.


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