# Incorporating guitar pedals into DAW set-up?



## will_m (Jan 16, 2019)

Hi guys, 

I'm looking to be able to add a number of guitar FX pedals to things I'm recording into or already have recorded in my DAW, such as:

The output of my synth
The output of my Kemper
Tracks from my DAW

At present I am using an external FX return in Cubase to send audio out of my DAW/interface, through the pedals and back into the DAW again. 

However I'd prefer to be able to add this FX board to things at the input stage as well, so I could say play around with some FX settings whilst playing the synth. 

I can of course just unplug my synth (for example) from the interface and add it to the pedals etc but that would soon become pretty laborious re-routing everything all the time.

I'm thinking a patch bay would achieve what I wanted to do but I'm wondering if there are any other simpler solutions?


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 16, 2019)

Reamp pedal> pedals > DI > interface

You can also do:

Reamp pedal > pedals > guitar amp, pa speaker, etc > mic, mic pre, interface, etc.

Whenever you do this be sure to turn your levels DOWN before running anything through anything as to not send blasting levels through your gear, amps, ears, etc.


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## ThomasL (Jan 16, 2019)

Patch bay is probably the easiest solution, that's what they are used for, patching and re-patching things.

Also, do get a reamp pedal if you don't have one already.


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## Anders Wall (Jan 16, 2019)

Easy to build, basically it's just a transformer and a potentiometer.

I'm sure there's other kits out there, but here's one.
https://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/products/l2a

I've built a few using Lundahl transformers.
https://www.lundahltransformers.com/

Best of luck,
/Anders


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## nas (Jan 17, 2019)

This is good:

http://www.radialeng.com/product/extc-sa


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## charlieclouser (Jan 17, 2019)

nas said:


> This is good:
> 
> http://www.radialeng.com/product/extc-sa



Yes, the Radial EXTC-SA is the top-shelf solution. Bit pricey though, but it is the full-loop solution - out as well as return. Here's a cheap-n-cheerful solution but it's only the out - dealing with the return is on you:

http://saturnworkspedals.com/product/reamp-box/


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## will_m (Jan 17, 2019)

Thanks guys, I think I've got a handle on the re-amp / DI side of things, plenty of options there. 

The Radial EXTC-SA is probably my favourite, for the options it has and being an all in one solution but yes it is a bit on the pricey side for a routing/level box. I'm surprised no one has made a cheaper all in one version.

As per my original post though I'm more looking for something that will allow me to hook up the FX board to various I/O easily. This is looking more and more likely to be a patchbay, which might be overkill at present but I think might be useful for the future as I expand my effects set-up.


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## charlieclouser (Jan 17, 2019)

Yes, use 1/4" patch bays like the Neutrik or Behringer.

I have a ridonkulous pedal setup incorporating two Pro-Co PM148 patch bays (no longer made unfortunately) for a total of 46 channels of pedals plus 2 channels of i/o to my audio interface. Behringer make a very close clone of the PM-148, and I prefer them to the Neutrik as the Neutrik jacks stick out from the front in a weird way. But the Neutriks are easier to find and not expensive - and they do work just fine; you can change the normalling by taking the top off and flipping the individual channel cards around. The Pro-Co and Behringer have switches to change the normalling on each channel.

My pedals are all wired up to the patch bays, with normalling switched off, outputs over inputs as per usual. The first bay goes to 24 mono in-out pedals like distortions, compressors, gates, etc. The second bay goes to stereo pedals like four stereo pairs of MoogerFoogers, Eventide H9, 3x Strymons, etc. I reserved a pair of i/o on the second bay for tie lines back to the MOTU audio interfaces, so I can easily patch out of my DAW into any series of pedals and return - in stereo. I also have a pair of Avalon U-5 direct boxes right there, as well as my Pods and Sansamp stuff, so when tracking guitar I can patch to any combination of pedals on the way into the Pods / Sansamps, or go direct to the Avalons for extra hi-fi goodness, etc.

Really, a 1/4" patch bay is the way to go for this, since you can easily patch in guitars or synths, and the connections to the pedals are all going to be unbalanced anyways, so... a box (or pair of them for stereo) like the Saturnworks or Radial will fix up the signal going out of the DAW into the pedals, and for the return you might not even need a D.I. depending on what audio interface you're using. My MOTU 1248 has guitar-level inputs on the front, and I also have those Avalons, so I just return to one of those paths and I don't have a full-loop re-amp setup like the Radial EXTC-SA.

It did take a little bit of fiddling with the power supply units for the pedals to find a hum-free solution. I tried them all, and the VoodooLabs units were the only ones that didn't cause problems - so I have eight of them in various models to power every single pedal except for a few Electro-Harmonix oddballs that have like 19.75v power supplies, etc. The VoodooLabs units come in different models that can power 9v battery-style pedals, 12vAC pedals like Line6 and Eventide, etc. Some of the VoodooLabs units have "sag" controls to simulate dying batteries - I tested every pedal to see if it made a cool sound, and used the sag-able outputs for only those pedals that do something cool when the voltage sags; mostly distortion boxes. Some pedals just shut off when the voltage sags, but some get all half-assed and gronk out in a cool way.

One life-saver is an oddball pedal from Electro-Harmonix called the Hum Debugger. It is seriously magic and will eliminate any hum instantly. I've tried Ebtech and other isolators / hum eliminators but the EHX solves the problem like no other. Doesn't seem to mess up the signal either. I have a few guitars with single-coil pickups and they always hum, but the Debugger cures that instantly. Chasing the other kind of hum, from all the unbalanced cables running between the patch bays and the pedals, can take a while - in my rig there's three 16-channel Whirlwind 1/4" <> 1/4" unbalanced snakes for the mono pedals, and six 8-channel Hosa (I know, I know...) 1/4" <> 1/4" unbalanced snakes for the stereo pedals. Once I sorted out the power supplies and cable routing, believe it or not the whole rig is clean and quiet. But I tested every line for noise and hum before I cable-tied it all down. Took a while.

You can get all the power cables you need, in any possible configuration, including battery-clip ends, extensions, daisy-chain cables, big and small barrel ends, polarity reversers, etc. from Godlyke:

https://www.godlyke.com/power-all/power-all-cables

But don't get their "Power-All" universal power supply. It's a switch-mode unit and it causes hum. Get the power cables from them, but VoodooLab is the way to go for the power supplies:

http://voodoolab.com/pedalpower_landing.html

VoodooLab also has some pedal power cables that Godlyke does not. And nifty pedalboards as well. My pedals are all on pull-out shelves in a huge behemoth case I had made years ago, so I have no experience with the pedalboards themselves.


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## nas (Jan 17, 2019)

will_m said:


> Thanks guys, I think I've got a handle on the re-amp / DI side of things, plenty of options there.
> 
> The Radial EXTC-SA is probably my favourite, for the options it has and being an all in one solution but yes it is a bit on the pricey side for a routing/level box. I'm surprised no one has made a cheaper all in one version.
> 
> As per my original post though I'm more looking for something that will allow me to hook up the FX board to various I/O easily. This is looking more and more likely to be a patchbay, which might be overkill at present but I think might be useful for the future as I expand my effects set-up.



You will need some sort of a D.I. to match the impedance from your pedals to line or mic-pre level on the patch bay. If you don't match correctly, you will get a weak and noisy signal... and it will not sound that great.


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## will_m (Jan 17, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, use 1/4" patch bays like the Neutrik or Behringer.
> 
> I have a ridonkulous pedal setup incorporating two Pro-Co PM148 patch bays (no longer made unfortunately) for a total of 46 channels of pedals plus 2 channels of i/o to my audio interface. Behringer make a very close clone of the PM-148, and I prefer them to the Neutrik as the Neutrik jacks stick out from the front in a weird way. But the Neutriks are easier to find and not expensive - and they do work just fine; you can change the normalling by taking the top off and flipping the individual channel cards around. The Pro-Co and Behringer have switches to change the normalling on each channel.
> 
> ...



Awesome, thanks Charlie for such a detailed rundown. I'd definitely like to build towards such a set-up. Looks like the patchbay will be the way to go, with some combo of re-amp / DI boxes or the Radial.

I saw this amazing set-up from Yellow Technologies the other day:



Bit out of my budget though!

I've been looking at the Samson S Patch for a patchbay, seems be well reviewed and you can switch between the different modes on the front panel.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/samson_spatch_plus.htm?ref=search_prv_7

I'm just using mono pedals at the moment, a bunch of distortions/fuzzes for adding some destruction!

Thanks for the link to the Hum-Debugger too, once I'm all set-up I'll see how much noise is left to deal with.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 17, 2019)

How about this one?
https://www.boredbrainmusic.com/product/patchulator-8000/


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## charlieclouser (Jan 17, 2019)

The Samson patch bay would absolutely do the trick. Having the front-panel switches to change the normalling scheme is very handy. Not like you're changing those switches every day, but it's still better than opening up the rack, as you'd have to do with the Neutrik.

The Debugger is really only needed for dealing with actual noisy guitar pickups; if you have such bad hums in the wiring that you'd need it then it's time to fiddle with the wiring instead of resorting to leaving the Debugger in-line all the time. But it is an amazing little unit.

That custom Yellow Tech desk looks pretty slick as well.


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## will_m (Jan 18, 2019)

givemenoughrope said:


> How about this one?
> https://www.boredbrainmusic.com/product/patchulator-8000/



Thanks, that's a cool looking design. I'm not sure it offers anything over a patch bay though and getting it to the U.K is probably going to work out more expensive.


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## chimuelo (Jan 18, 2019)

I use the old Creamware A16 Ultra 32 x TS 1/4' I/Os that uses 1394 Firewire to interface with the DAW/Host.

I use 4 out of 6 AUX Channels, 500 SERIES and 3 x Strymons
I like the Strymons because my controller automates every parameter via MIDI CC's.

Just doing small clubs this year but my little powerful DAW/rig sounds good using samples, soft synths and an SE-02 for Bass and Lead. 2 little QSC 8.2 speakers and a 12" Sub is pretty FAT for stage monitors.

The Strymons are so good Im only using a TC Finalyzer and Bellari Sonic Tube Exciter for hardware these days.
PCM 70 and TC Fireworx are collecting dust until they regain value.


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## Wake (Jan 18, 2019)

Just a heads-up for those who might not have received the news from IK multimedia - they just unveiled a new interface designed with guitarists in mind, and it has a dedicated amp output.

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/axeio/

Could be very useful, here's hoping reviews and impressions are positive. The bundled software is a nice add.


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## chimuelo (Jan 18, 2019)

Wake said:


> Just a heads-up for those who might not have received the news from IK multimedia - they just unveiled a new interface designed with guitarists in mind, and it has a dedicated amp output.
> 
> https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/axeio/
> 
> Could be very useful, here's hoping reviews and impressions are positive. The bundled software is a nice add.



Thats Sweet. I hope they have an ADAT, MADI or Dante vrs. if this sells good.
My favorite Pedals are Stereo but it’s really nice using TS Mono in Dual TS Out.

For mobile users these 24 x 8 Pedaltrains are sweet.
Stick a PSU Underneath, unplug it, throw it in the case.

https://express.google.com/product/...-Board-with-Soft-Case/0_3062423107929730255_0


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## dgburns (Jan 18, 2019)

I had been itching to throw some audio through my pedals, finally patched in throught my Radial re-amp di, into pedals, out to my active di’s back into daw, and decided it all sounded like shit and the Logic pedals sounded a million times better.

and I’m a guitar player and predisposed to collecting pedals like my spouse collects those Pandora bracelet charms, but no love.


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## chimuelo (Jan 20, 2019)

Impedance might be a problem or insertion loss.

I bought Pedals years ago and concluded the same even though my interface is a routers dream.
Turned out Guitar Pedals impedence was the problem.

Lester G is a Leslie Emulation Pedal for Guitar.
I almost bought it but the distributor knows Im a synth and sample guy and said that the G stands for guitar, maybe I wanted the Lester K for keyboards.

Every Pedal Ive bought since then has been impedence Matched and because they’re not analog but DSP Based FX (SHARC like UAD) their audio quality is Supreme.
The algorithms, ..extreme.


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## dgburns (Jan 20, 2019)

chimuelo said:


> Impedance might be a problem or insertion loss.
> 
> I bought Pedals years ago and concluded the same even though my interface is a routers dream.
> Turned out Guitar Pedals impedence was the problem.
> ...



My Radial re-amp di box is supposed to fix impedance and level. I have the older one called JDI. It does a good job and I’m pretty sure I have the technical stuff working ok. Maybe I need better pedals, lol. 

Here’s a link to the newer Radial re-amp stuff.

http://www.radialeng.com/product_category/reamp


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## gjelul (Jan 20, 2019)

I have a 2 patchbay set up.
Patchbay 1 takes care of my synths (Virus Ti2, Moog One, Prophet 6 and Prophet 12,) my three pedals (Strymon Mobius, Timeline and Big Sky,) and the Kemper Profiler. Then it goes into my main system patchbay where I have all the rest of the outboard connected. Works great so far...


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## chimuelo (Jan 20, 2019)

Nice set up.
Radial makes great gear.
I’ve got the Key Largo Mixer, 8 Channel Space Heater and Plexi for Marshall Tube Sound.

I’m still tweaking my Strymon Pedals, only started using them live 3 weeks ago.
I’m really getting a signature sound using them.
A really impressive algorithm is the Spring Reverb Clean with a short decay for Horn Sections. 
CHein Horn, Warp IV, NI Session and BBB all using same articulations layered and zoned with the Spring is awesome. 
I get that old Phil Collins Tom Sound on the Horns.
I play covers these days and to tolerate being a live juke box I need a packed dance floor and good sounding gear.
They get their moneys worth for my meager 100 bucks a night.


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## Mojo Bone (Jan 26, 2019)

If you'll be using pedals with vocals or miked instruments, you might want to have a look at this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MixingLink--eventide-mixing-link-preamp-and-fx-loop

Here's a review: https://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/102/mixinglink-preamp-w-effects-loop/


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## will_m (Feb 15, 2019)

This might be a silly question but could I use a 2 channel DI box to be both the link from the interface to the pedals and also from the pedals back to the interface? 

So connect an output from my interface to one channel on the the DI, then into the pedals. Then from the output of the pedals to the other channel on the DI then onto the input on my interface. 

I'd obviously need to have one channel of the DI box in reverse.

Something like this one:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/palmer_pan_04.htm


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## Mojo Bone (Feb 16, 2019)

The short answer is no. Your app requires a step up transformer [to DAW] and a step down transformer, [from DAW] and that is two passive step up transformers in a box. Although it's passive, that doesn't mean it'll work backwards, even if you build the weird cables it would require. OTOH, it's well worth the investment if you have stompboxes with stereo outputs, such as panned or ping-pong delays and just about every chorus, flanger or modulator. Many interfaces feature one or more high-impedance instrument level inputs, but the IKMultimedia one mentioned upthread is the only one I'm aware of that has a Hi-Z instrument-level output.

There are some stompboxes that will accept line-level signals; off the top of my head, Korg SDD3000, Eventide H9 Maximizer and the venerable Boss CE-1 Chorus Ensemble which was originally designed to work with stage keyboards. The Korg even has selectable output levels, as well as input.There are also some all-in-one digital pedalboards with re-amping built in, like Line6's Helix.


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## will_m (Feb 21, 2019)

Mojo Bone said:


> The short answer is no. Your app requires a step up transformer [to DAW] and a step down transformer, [from DAW] and that is two passive step up transformers in a box. Although it's passive, that doesn't mean it'll work backwards, even if you build the weird cables it would require. OTOH, it's well worth the investment if you have stompboxes with stereo outputs, such as panned or ping-pong delays and just about every chorus, flanger or modulator. Many interfaces feature one or more high-impedance instrument level inputs, but the IKMultimedia one mentioned upthread is the only one I'm aware of that has a Hi-Z instrument-level output.
> 
> There are some stompboxes that will accept line-level signals; off the top of my head, Korg SDD3000, Eventide H9 Maximizer and the venerable Boss CE-1 Chorus Ensemble which was originally designed to work with stage keyboards. The Korg even has selectable output levels, as well as input.There are also some all-in-one digital pedalboards with re-amping built in, like Line6's Helix.



Ah right thanks, I think I got confused after reading this article where they refer to a reverse DI, which I thought was using a regular DI but in reverse, as opposed to a separate product that is actually a reverse DI that steps down the signal.

https://www.justaphase.blog/home/2019/1/31/pedals

If if have a pedal that does accept line level, (for example I think a lot of the Strymons do) does that mean it is stepping down withing the pedal itself so the output from that pedal can then go into other pedals that don't take line level?

Would the best set-up be a re-amp box to step down the signal from my DAW, then a DI box from the pedals back into the DAW?

The Radial EXTC-SA looks great but I'd rather save the money for the pedals themselves if I can.

I still want to use the pedals with my guitar so I guess I'll have to switch between them somehow.


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## Mojo Bone (Feb 21, 2019)

"Would the best set-up be a re-amp box to step down the signal from my DAW, then a DI box from the pedals back into the DAW?"

In a word, yes. Just bite that bullet, cuz the situation is gonna arise. Some pedals have a buffer stage, meaning their output is lo-Z, to allow longer cable runs with less noise, which is generally a good thing for guitar signals, cuz pickups are great antennae for stray electromagnetic interference, but a buffer is pretty much the last thing you'd want to have in your chain ahead of a fuzz pedal, particularly the vintage sort that consists of a couple diodes or transistors; those are extremely sensitive to input impedance and won't sound right behind a buffer. If you're applying fuzz to a synth track coming from a DAW, this is where you'll definitely need the stepdown Xformer.

Pedals that are designed for use in an amp's effects loop (delays, reverbs, modulators) you can experiment with the order, it'll make a difference, but maybe not enough to matter as much as whether your chorus is in front of or behind your distortion pedal. These time-based effects may be able to accept signal from your DAW without impedance conversion, depending on your interface.

Prosumer interfaces can operate at -10dB, rather than the professional console standard of +4dB; rack effects often are switchable between the two, and when placed in an amp's effects loop are comfortable at -10dB. You can generally mix and match with pedals that play well in an amp's FX loop.

A handy pedal that _will _work backwards is an ABY switch; you might want that for switching your sources or for selecting FX chains and if any of your pedals is a looper, you might want to add an outboard mixer for even more input/output flexibility.


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## Mojo Bone (Feb 22, 2019)

Bump, for the edit.


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## will_m (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks @Mojo Bone , that's great. I think I'll go with the re-amp and DI set-up for now and maybe upgrade to the Radial box in the future if its something I use a lot.

My interface is the RME UFX+ and I'm pretty sure you can select between +4 -10 and a 'hi gain' setting for the outputs, so I'll bear that in mind with other rack effects.


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## Mojo Bone (Feb 23, 2019)

If that's "Hi-Z" and not "hi gain", you're already good to go; consult the I/F manual..


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## Giscard Rasquin (Oct 6, 2020)

Great thread with some awesome info! 
I’m just starting this journey. Wondering how you guys go about sending stereo tracks from your DAW (ie synths or drum bus) to such a mono guitar fx chain and if there’s any possible catches mixing stereo with mono signals?
Thanks!!


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