# Insulting the Prophet



## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

This 2013 poll: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... ing-islam/)

...was horrifying to me. For some, it was a news item that caused a temporary buzz. For me, despite reading in a bit more depth about the cultural view of apostasy in Islam, it was eye opening and sticky: i have been unable to stop chewing on it.

Today, as I was pondering the latest botched attempt at terrorism in Texas (and as it happens, my military son is home and at a crossroads) it occured to me that I'd like to see another poll to answer this question:

How many Muslims, in other countries or our own, consider an insult to the Prophet an offense that should be punishable by death?


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## Udo (May 7, 2015)

It's very similar to what Catholic Christians did to Protestant Christian, a few centuries ago, when they burnt them at the stake ....


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

Udo @ Thu May 07 said:


> It's very similar to what Catholic Christians did to Protestant Christian, a few centuries ago, when they burnt them at the stake ....



Ok-what's your point, and how does this speak to the issue I've raised? It's now THIS century, and unlike the poll I cited, we're no longer talking about inter-Islam issues.


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## Vlzmusic (May 7, 2015)

For some, its a constant buzz:

http://www.jihadwatch.org


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

Vlzmusic @ Thu May 07 said:


> For some, its a constant buzz:
> 
> http://www.jihadwatch.org



Pamela Geller and her ilk will never speak for me. Self serving sensationalism and deliberate, mindless provocation in my view.


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## Daryl (May 7, 2015)

I am not a Muslim, so can't answer your question directly, but my views are as follows:

1) I don't think that insulting anyone's religion should be punishable, whether by death or anything else.
2) Blasphemy should not be a crime.
3) Nobody has any reason to insult the beliefs of anyone else, as long as they don't impinge on a 3rd party's life.
4) Pretending that insulting The Prophet, Jesus or any religious figure is a matter of free speech is nonsense. There is no such thing as free speech.

D


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## Udo (May 7, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Thu May 07 said:


> Udo @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > It's very similar to what Catholic Christians did to Protestant Christian, a few centuries ago, when they burnt them at the stake ....
> ...


Sorry, hadn't read the whole article - was commenting on the headline.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

Daryl @ Thu May 07 said:


> I am not a Muslim, so can't answer your question directly, but my views are as follows:
> 
> 1) I don't think that insulting anyone's religion should be punishable, whether by death or anything else.
> 2) Blasphemy should not be a crime.
> ...



Daryl:

1. I'm sure the figures aren't exact, but according to the poll, 88% of Muslims in Egypt disagree with you, and I don't think they care about your opinion.
2. Agreed. Same answer.
3. Reason or no, it happens 1 zillion 998 billion 337 million 441 thousand times a day, so whether people "should" or "shouldn't is kind of irrelevant, yes? What I'm talking about here is the difference between example 1- two guys yelling at each other, the first saying "your God (____) eats sh-t!" and the other saying "yeah?? Well F-CK YOUR God!!" and in example 2, first guy: "hahaha, your Prophet sucks!!" and the other guy pulls out a gun and kills him.
4. It may be insulting, but it's most certainly free speech. Within a certain amount of reason, we certainly do have freedom of speech in the Western world, much much more than in, say, Saudi Arabia.

I mean, seriously my friend, what are you trying to say? That we should all be nice to each other, civil, non insulting, then there won't be a problem?? Pardon me for thinking that naive and utopian.


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## Daryl (May 7, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Thu May 07 said:


> I mean, seriously my friend, what are you trying to say? That we should all be nice to each other, civil, non insulting, then there won't be a problem?? Pardon me for thinking that naive and utopian.


Yes, I am a moral person. I don't apologise for that. It's just the way that I am. I also understand that it will never happen as long as tribal/religious/patriotism views hold sway.

D


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

Daryl @ Thu May 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I mean, seriously my friend, what are you trying to say? That we should all be nice to each other, civil, non insulting, then there won't be a problem?? Pardon me for thinking that naive and utopian.
> ...



It's important to live by a code. You consider yourself a moral person, and I have no doubt that you are. I consider myself a person who tries to do the right thing. The 88% in Egypt? They obviously have strong feelings about morality- they believe there is only one true path to it. The problem I want to talk about isn't self perception-it's about exclusionary moralities, violent reactions to perceived or real insults, and how the world will deal with these problems. I'd also like to know, as stated in my original post, how widespread the idea of "death for insult" might be. 

I fear that it will be many lifetimes, if ever, that humanity evolves past tribal/religious/patriotic views.


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## gbar (May 7, 2015)

Daryl @ Thu May 07 said:


> I am not a Muslim, so can't answer your question directly, but my views are as follows:
> 
> 
> 4) Pretending that insulting The Prophet, Jesus or any religious figure is a matter of free speech is nonsense. There is no such thing as free speech.
> ...



Well, that's silly. Of course there is free speech. What does that mean? It means the Government can't makes laws punishing speech with very few exceptions, even if that speech offends your moral sensibilities as assholes will often do.

It doesn't mean there will be no consequences for being an asshole. People may shun you, you may lose jobs, and kids may favour your house for games of ding-dong-ditch.

Is drawing mythical images allegedly of the prophet Mohammed offensive to Muslims in general?

Yes. Mohammed didn't want anybody worshipping him, so he forbade erecting monuments and creating images of religious figures including himself, so creating images of him for any reason kind of betrays that sentiment, and creating them for the purposes of mocking somebody's faith is deliberately insulting. If you are going to mock somebody, mock the fundamentalists or the superstitious aspects and do it in a constructive way. Blindly mocking somebody's faith instead just makes you a major asshole. Mock the offensive behaviours and the hypocrisy of "believers" who are just creating more pain and misery in the world. 

That being said, you are not allowed to kill somebody for insulting you or your alleged moral sensibilities in any advanced society. We're trying to move beyond that, and IMO, fundamentalist radicals who would kill because a non-believer is mocking their religion and traditions are missing a key point: they are worshipping the man, Mohammed, and that's flat out ironic, and they are deliberately disregarding centuries of hadiths and the core tenants developed over those centuries.

That's my 2 cents.

Fundamentalists be whacked. I don't care if it's militant Christians fire bombing video stores for having "The Last Temptation of Christ" on their shelves or Jundallah targeting Shia Muslims in Iran for alleged apostasy.

It's mindless, red-neck, unproductive and violent tribalism even for a backwater planet orbiting an unremarkable star in a middling galaxy whose inhabitants are mindless red-neck tribalists, only .... some of them don't know it


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## SergeD (May 7, 2015)

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein


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## Daryl (May 7, 2015)

gbar @ Thu May 07 said:


> Daryl @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I am not a Muslim, so can't answer your question directly, but my views are as follows:
> ...


Ummmm......no, you're wrong. If there was free speech, there would be no exceptions. Free speech is an absolute. No exceptions. Obviously within current Western morality there are things that can't be said at all and some only in specific circumstances, but freedoms of any sort are only by degree. They can never be absolute, and then each society has to choose how much freedom they want.

D


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## chimuelo (May 7, 2015)

When having an outdoor Bar B Q sometimes it necessary to put pieces of shit (The lady in question) in a pile to attract the flys and other insects (wanna-be Jihadi's) so you can waste them far away from the food.

My big beef is that this school where kids go might now be a target for allowing such intentional behavior.

On a separate issue they did provide extra security in expectation of violent behavior so it was a successful strategy.
2 less AK 47s and whack job zealots to worry about.

I must admit I always admired the teachings of Jesus and the Prophet and when seeing their "likeness" mocked and denegraded by "artists" and people it did make me angry.
But to waste folks with AKs wasn't even a thought.
On the other hand slapping their faces was considered as the teachings, if one were to read in depth are far different than the various interpretations whackos use to control their Sheep.

Real Socialism is very similar to the teachings of Jesus.

Which is why Bernie will win over the Evangelicals with a slight touch of comparison.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 7, 2015)

Those polls saying 88% of all Muslims want to kill people who leave, or whatever it is...I'm totally skeptical of that.

People say things in polls they wouldn't really say, the questions are leading, there are multiple choices that don't reflect your views, and so on. That's simply not to be taken seriously.

Imagine if you took a poll in a red state asking whether all illegal immigrants should be sent to concentration camps. The results are guaranteed to be alarming.


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## JonFairhurst (May 7, 2015)

With the freedom to worship any religion you prefer...

You have the right to be offended by those who exercise their right to criticize it.

And you have the right to defend your religion with words. If you have to resort to force, you've lost the debate.


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## nikolas (May 7, 2015)

gbar @ Thu May 07 said:


> Daryl @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I am not a Muslim, so can't answer your question directly, but my views are as follows:
> ...


Hem...

Apart from the fact that hate speech IS punishable, I do think that there are certain words that can lead to prosecution (like the N word, the F word side by side with a kids' name, the idea of evolution in parts of the world, etc)! :D


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## gbar (May 7, 2015)

chimuelo @ Thu May 07 said:


> The lady in question.



Yes, I think there is some question that she is a "lady". If you look up some of the stuff she has written in the past, I think you will see what I mean.

The dung metaphor also kind of works, and other comparisons like bottom scraping, etc.


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## ed buller (May 7, 2015)

SergeD @ Thu May 07 said:


> "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
> Albert Einstein




perfect

e


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## pixel (May 7, 2015)

If I make a poll proving that 100% christians wanna kill non christians and I put it into any news portal, you will believe that it's an absolutely truth?

I have seen too many manipulations, fake photos, lies, fake polls to care about "news" from commercial media. 
There is so much better ways to waste my time


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## oneder (May 7, 2015)

gbar said:
" backwater planet orbiting an unremarkable star in a middling galaxy"...

I would hardly call the Sun/Light unremarkable. It's the closest thing to "god" that WE have. Religion be damned...

https://youtu.be/gbWC5i6Jymk


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## gbar (May 7, 2015)

oneder @ Thu May 07 said:


> gbar said:
> " backwater planet orbiting an unremarkable star in a middling galaxy"...
> 
> I would hardly call the Sun/Light unremarkable. It's the closest thing to "god" that WE have. Religion be damned...
> ...



That was my best Douglas Adams impersonation too.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu May 07 said:


> Those polls saying 88% of all Muslims want to kill people who leave, or whatever it is...I'm totally skeptical of that.
> 
> People say things in polls they wouldn't really say, the questions are leading, there are multiple choices that don't reflect your views, and so on. That's simply not to be taken seriously.
> 
> Imagine if you took a poll in a red state asking whether all illegal immigrants should be sent to concentration camps. The results are guaranteed to be alarming.



Yes, I agree the results are questionable. Lets move the margin of error and assume that only 50% actually believe it. 

There- does that make you feel better? Me, not so much.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

nikolas @ Thu May 07 said:


> gbar @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Thu May 07 said:
> ...



Prosecution seems preferable to being gunned down in the street. Like anything, free speech has limits, but we go pretty far to protect it in this country, as in the case of this odious woman Ms. Geller.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

pixel @ Thu May 07 said:


> If I make a poll proving that 100% christians wanna kill non christians and I put it into any news portal, you will believe that it's an absolutely truth?
> 
> I have seen too many manipulations, fake photos, lies, fake polls to care about "news" from commercial media.
> There is so much better ways to waste my time



See my answer to Nick. It's a pretty reputable pollster, but I assume a huge margin of error. Again, if only 50% of Muslims in Egypt believe that those who leave Islam deserve death, would you feel better about it?

Also, what about my real question- would you be interested in a poll that asked how many feel that insulting the Prophet should be punishable by death? I certainly would.


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## FriFlo (May 7, 2015)

Insult every prophet you want, but DO NOT INSULT MY PROPHET T8!!!!


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## Soundhound (May 7, 2015)

They were practicing hate speech, and got exactly what they were hoping for, didn't even cost them anything, none of their coven was killed. I'm sorry Pam Geller didn't get a bullet in the head.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

Soundhound @ Thu May 07 said:


> They were practicing hate speech, and got exactly what they were hoping for, didn't even cost them anything, none of their coven was killed. I'm sorry Pam Geller didn't get a bullet in the head.



With that statement, you join the enemy.


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## pixel (May 7, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Thu May 07 said:


> pixel @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > If I make a poll proving that 100% christians wanna kill non christians and I put it into any news portal, you will believe that it's an absolutely truth?
> ...



No because polls, like statics prove nothing. 

How many people have been asked? 10000? Probably less. 
There is no such thing like objectivism in journalism - that's another thing.
Funny thing because I have moved from Poland to UK and I have seen a lot of news about UK in Polish media but I can compare it to reality and people in Poland who are not moving outside, don't. What is funny? Funny is this that 90% of those news are total bu***hit, rubbish nonsense but the purpose of those news is to scared people in Poland to move out. I can multiply and multiply my experiences where I found that media, tv, radio, press, they give us lies, especially about topics that we cannot prove.

Media: They want to frighten us, put against each other. They want to evoke in us hatred for other religions and races. So they can easily manipulate us, caught up in the stupid war. I know it sounds like some crazy hippie talk but these are the facts. Who winds up us on these wars? The murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq for no reason! Does anyone can me remind why they die there? Because media tell us that they have weapons of mass destruction? Now we know that was a lie. Another lie and another. 
Polls like this are just another small pouring oil on the flame. They want scare us about devilish wanting blood Muslims. In Mulsim countries media telling them that we are those wanting blood devils. Wheel of hate is spinning further. 
I dream about the day when one group will stop that. I hope that it will be us. Someone have to open eyes that we are manipulated to hate each other. 
Studying by 3 years how to make people fools gave me a bright light on this


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## Soundhound (May 7, 2015)

And with yours, you display the bean counter’s deafness to hyperbole. 

You’re so strict! Ok, I’m not a joiner by nature, really don’t like group activities—but if I joined, then I need to know where to sign up. 

There are multiple enemies here. Did I join militant Islam, or hate mongering, intolerant redneck xenophobes? They have so much in common, it's tricky to tell them apart.

I certainly believe in the idea of defending someone’s right to say something I disagree with. But I also think that if someone yells fire in a crowded theater, should they then get trampled in the rush, well, gee, ain’t that just too bad. 





NYC Composer @ Thu May 07 said:


> Soundhound @ Thu May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > They were practicing hate speech, and got exactly what they were hoping for, didn't even cost them anything, none of their coven was killed. I'm sorry Pam Geller didn't get a bullet in the head.
> ...


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## wst3 (May 7, 2015)

I'm not sure it's all that complex... and I'll risk being labeled naive or worse...

there is no reason to insult someone else, or their beliefs. Sure, it happens, but it really shouldn't.

And even though it happens, and even though several religions have practiced similar measures, insulting someone - or their beliefs - or their prophet is not and should not be a capital crime.

IF most of the rest of the world can agree to that then yeah, I do think it is time for the Islam to step up and agree with the rest of the world.

Or, I suppose, we could go back to Catholics killing heretics, and protestants killing witches and whatever.

I'm not proud of the fact that my nation grew on the backs of slaves, and killed off the folks they found here, but I am pleased that we seemed to learn from past mistakes. Society isn't perfect, but at least it is trying.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2015)

Soundhound @ Thu May 07 said:


> And with yours, you display the bean counter’s deafness to hyperbole.
> 
> You’re so strict! Ok, I’m not a joiner by nature, really don’t like group activities—but if I joined, then I need to know where to sign up.
> 
> ...



The enemy is always the same-fanaticism of the sort that says "that woman should get a bullet in the head for what she espouses and engenders" or "that cartoonist deserves a bullet in the head for making fun of the Prophet" or "that novelist deserves his Fatwa for writing that book against Islam" or "those Nazis need to be gunned down for marching in the face of Holocaust survivors". The minute you start suggesting violent solutions would be fine, you already HAVE joined a faction of some sort. 

I had a long discussion with my wife (and verbal sparring partner) about "fire in a crowded theater" this evening. I'll bet if Felix Frankfurter realized that his attempt at rationality would be used by so many people in so many ways to justify THEIR view of where free speech ends, he'd never have said it. It has nothing to do with what you're suggesting, which is basically that you would be perfectly fine if inflammatory political rhetoric that you disagree with was met with murder. You're suggesting that murder would be a fitting punishment for horrendous beliefs and gatherings, ALL of which fit into our civil society's definition of free speech. We really couldn't have political debate of any sort in this country without extreme violence if what you're suggesting became reality.

Read my statement earlier. This woman and her ilk will NEVER speak for me. I find her execrable. However, I would never suggest she receive a bullet in the head for her bigoted, inflammatory statements, because that flies in the face of every little bit I still try to hold dear about living in America. If that makes me a bean counter, count me in.

Oh, re hyperbole? I'm good with hyperbole about the wonders of broccoli, the absolute best sports car, etc. The bullet in the head thing? Right, not so much.


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## Soundhound (May 7, 2015)

My wife is out of town, so there is no moderating influence on this end currently. 

And so: you’re not getting my drift (which puts you in some very crowded and august company). Pamela Geller is a menace, she is endangering people’s lives, using ignorance and hate to promote fear. The cartoon group was a modern KKK meeting—they claim to be exercising free speech, but what they are practicing is hate speech. 

Geller is a fundamentalist on jihad against other fundamentalists, I don’t see a lot of daylight between her and the people she hates. The only possible result of her efforts is violence. 

And so: the overstatement was purposeful. She was indeed shouting fire in a crowded theater, her intention is to cause harm. I don’t condone violence, of any kind. But if she had met a violent end, she would in some regards have brought it on herself. That is the irony I was trying to point out. Not particularly artfully for you, it seems.

Hyperbole doesn’t really have much to work with regarding broccoli and fast cars. In politics, political humor, editorial writing, it’s meat and potatoes. I just suck at it, apparently.


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2015)

Soundhound @ Fri May 08 said:


> My wife is out of town, so there is no moderating influence on this end currently.
> 
> And so: you’re not getting my drift (which puts you in some very crowded and august company). Pamela Geller is a menace, she is endangering people’s lives, using ignorance and hate to promote fear. The cartoon group was a modern KKK meeting—they claim to be exercising free speech, but what they are practicing is hate speech.
> 
> ...



SH- I don't need to be "right" about this, as there are always different ways of looking at the same thing. I find her tactics abhorrent, as I've indicated previously, but we're going to have to disagree on these two matters:

1. I don't believe her tactics fit the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" definition, nor do meetings of the Klu Klux Klan or the American Nazi party, both of which involve rhetoric that nauseate most people. Frankly, I'm not even so sure her rhetoric fits the definition of "hate speech", a concept that I find at odds with the First Amendment anyway.

2. The suggestion that it would be a good thing for someone you deeply disagree with to meet a violent end strikes me as the kind of hyperbole, if it was indeed that, that has no place in rational discussions. I read plenty of political writing. Political humor? Well, humor's pretty subjective, didn't make me chuckle though. Editorial writing? Not the sort I respect. 

Now go forth and sin no more. :wink:


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## G.R. Baumann (May 8, 2015)

Larry, as for polls....

Perhaps you find this useful:

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

Here in particular page 23!


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Fri May 08 said:


> Larry, as for polls....
> 
> Perhaps you find this useful:
> 
> ...



Georg- I took a quick look at page 23- what am I missing??


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## G.R. Baumann (May 8, 2015)

:lol: sorry, I did not read the washington post link at first, just the headline in your link. 

Then curiousity took the better and clicked on it, hehehe, they used the same think tank for reference.


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## G.R. Baumann (May 8, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Fri May 08 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Fri May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Larry, as for polls....
> ...



Nothing, it's just a coincidence that I shared the same report which I read a few month ago that was used in the washington post.

Just thought you might find the report useful. That was all. :D


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Fri May 08 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > G.R. Baumann @ Fri May 08 said:
> ...



Hahaha- cheers!


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## G.R. Baumann (May 8, 2015)

On a more global side note re capital punishment in particular:

http://internationalhumanrightslaw....1/Capital-Punishment-A-Global-Perspective.pdf


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## chimuelo (May 8, 2015)

Speaking of staged media events.
The coincidence's are starting to really pick up pace aren't they.

Ferguson was a staged and well funded organized riot/protest/looting spree.
Really odd for the National Guard to be called in and then have someone "leak" to the media that they were told to stand down shortly after arriving....?

Then we have the Mayor of Baltimore in so many words allowing a "police free" time period in which to burn, loot and steal. Then the prosecutor holds a media event, then shortly afterwards says this case will not be tried in the "media." These folks obviously think the average American is incapable of comprehension.

In each event the Feds who actually helped fund the protests to begin with are now called upon to "fix" things.
The biggest complaint was the introduction of military hardware being seen, that was also provided by the Feds.

Odd that we don't hear about the US Military conducting excercises in the SWest by "media", in the very same area that this recent staged media event occurred.

Seems the powers that be are using new tactics to divide the Sheep and cause national discourse.

Not sure why, but having the US Military conducting excercises inside of our borders is a first. It caused the Texas Governor to put whacko militia men on alert. Didn't read about that in the LameStream media, but a Mexican investigative reporter, (Yes a reporter that investigates actually) had a weeks worth of articles as they seem to know about this in Guadalajara and Sinaloa.

Calls by Liberal leader Al Sharpton to nationalize a Police Force are touted in the Media, but not the US Military excercises.......interesting.

In the ACA, that nobody read, we can read where such a domestic force is now actually legal. I read that long ago and thought maybe it was for disasters and such, a way to call up thousands of medical experts. 

Now I see there is no mention of profession, more like a group of "organizers" needed to help nudge things along.

And as far as Polls are concerned, I can't remember the last time one was right.
Most recent example is the elections in the UK.

I have been reading how Labor will win everything, yet we see Labor being removed en masse...?

All I know is the people who really run our Governments, our schools, our media and the global economy are sure busy these days.
I hope they don't have to spend too much money keeping their Sheep disinformed.

But when Hillary Clinton claims she needs 2.5 Billion dollars to win an election where she has no challengers, just a nice global Foundation stuffed with cash from abroad, I tend to be concerned and will surely watch for patterns and "coincidences."

I plan on reading more about the lady in question who used a school to do her public stunt. My guess is, she also gives money to leaders for favors as dividing the people against each other cannot be successful unless all leaders/investors are involved.
I bet she gives cash to the Tea Party. So by having them all up in arms, and having Liberal ghettos all up in arms pretty much covers the flocks.

Too bad the majority of America can see through these staged media events, and hopefully will remove any participants in the upcoming elections.


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## pixel (May 8, 2015)

chimuelo @ Fri May 08 said:


> And as far as Polls are concerned, I can't remember the last time one was right.
> Most recent example is the elections in the UK.



Yeah, like in Poland where in president's election current president have 44% in polls but if you talk with people, nobody vote on him :D Election polls are always funny


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## Daryl (May 8, 2015)

chimuelo @ Fri May 08 said:


> And as far as Polls are concerned, I can't remember the last time one was right.
> Most recent example is the elections in the UK.


There are various reason why polls are sometimes not accurate. Specifically in the UK some of the reasons are:

1) The sample size is very specific and quite small. If people are working, chances are they don't have time for that nonsense.
2) Various left wing parties had made it perfectly clear that a vote for the Conservative party was a vote for greed. Some people care what others think about them, and rely on the secrecy of the ballot to hide their true intentions.
3) Polls take very little notice of constituency boundaries. For example UKIP polled twice the number of votes as the SNP, but ended up with 1 seat as opposed to the 56 the SNP got.
4) Because of the system we have, you can poll a minority of votes, but still win. In other words even if the majority of the constituents don't want you, it doesn't matter, as long as you get more votes than your nearest rival.

D


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## Soundhound (May 8, 2015)

Yes, agreeing to disagree, unsatisfying but necessary for peace among men. 

1) You're conflating several separate issues. Her shouting fire directly endangers people, and she intends to cause harm, which is what that phrase means, to me anyway. 

I'm good with the concept of hate speach. This country has such a deep, pervasive history of bigotry and racism, it's a useful and necessary idea. As for the constitution, it is not written in stone and can be amended when necessary. Strict constructionism is just another form of fundamentalism, fetishistic and regressive. 

2) We are not going to agree on humor or style. Also not the end of the world. Editorial writing has always been an essential part of the the political and cultural dialogue, where much of our best writing and ideas come from. But again, if you have to explain a joke... 

Now go forth and read more Hunter Thompson and Matt Taibbi. :arrow: 




NYC Composer @ Thu May 07 said:


> Soundhound @ Fri May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > My wife is out of town, so there is no moderating influence on this end currently.
> ...


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2015)

Soundhound @ Fri May 08 said:


> Yes, agreeing to disagree, unsatisfying but necessary for peace among men.
> 
> 1) You're conflating several separate issues. Her shouting fire directly endangers people, and she intends to cause harm, which is what that phrase means, to me anyway.
> 
> ...



I read the one (Thompson) til he self-enacted your joke, and I read the other consistently, as in all of his books and most of his articles when I could tiptoe around the rest of the excrement that is RS. When you write your satirical book about vampire squíds, I'll read yours too. Btw- read Michael Lewis if you haven't. Fabulous writer.


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## Soundhound (May 8, 2015)

Sigh. I miss him, and Christopher Hitchens and and and....

I haven't read RS since 1976, when Matt Taibbi started writing for them it gave me pause, but I am very forgiving. I've heard Michael Lewis is good. Are you a Martin Amis fan by chance? I haven't read him the last decade, but his early fiction is terrific. But it's The Moronic Inferno I think might be of interest here. Talk about great writing, he (was anyway) the Charlie Parker (choose your hero here) of editorial writing.


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## chimuelo (May 8, 2015)

Daryl @ Fri May 08 said:


> There are various reason why polls are sometimes not accurate. Specifically in the UK some of the reasons are:
> 
> 1) The sample size is very specific and quite small. If people are working, chances are they don't have time for that nonsense.
> 2) Various left wing parties had made it perfectly clear that a vote for the Conservative party was a vote for greed. Some people care what others think about them, and rely on the secrecy of the ballot to hide their true intentions.
> ...



Agreed.
Over here Polls are used mainly to sway people early on in an election to discourage certain competition. Once real pollsters show a candidate is going to lose, like McConnell's race, they stop investing. No sense feeding a dead horse. But for months up until the election media always says the exact opposite or makes it appear to be a close race. 
The Sheep must be divided at 50/50 as that way the Wolves can control the flow of cash and legislation.

I have been a registered voter all of my life, have had the same land line forever, served on 4 Jury's and was a witness in a murder trial.
One would think my name was being passed around as I get calls for charity everyday but never once have I been polled.
Only twice have I had Census Bureau people come to my door.
I tell them the truth since they at least get off of their ass to ask me a question.
Unlike those other lazy lying fuckfaces.

I can guarantee we will be seeing Polls from the "Clinton Foundation" showing Bernie Sanders has 1% and she has 96.421% as Clintons are wise enough to know that uneven numbers appear to be more accurate, hence truthful.

But even so, my guess is the "Foundation" is already bribing Super Delegates just like folks did when she won the Senate seat in New York.
The guy who got caught doing that was naturally not prosecuted, he owned Una Vision and most German Media at that time. Probably back in Israel these days.
Media Moguls buy and sell shares and controlling stocks all the time.
Their names change, but the Corporations name is always the same.

Putin doesn't allow foreigners to own his media.
Western nations sell to the anyone wanting to invest in DC.


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2015)

Soundhound @ Fri May 08 said:


> Sigh. I miss him, and Christopher Hitchens and and and....
> 
> I haven't read RS since 1976, when Matt Taibbi started writing for them it gave me pause, but I am very forgiving. I've heard Michael Lewis is good. Are you a Martin Amis fan by chance? I haven't read him the last decade, but his early fiction is terrific. But it's The Moronic Inferno I think might be of interest here. Talk about great writing, he (was anyway) the Charlie Parker (choose your hero here) of editorial writing.



Michael Lewis is spectacular, especially on financial matters. Incisive, entertaining writer with a wicked sense if humor. If you like Taibbi, you'll LOVE him. Try "The Big Short."

Amis, no, i'll check that out- but please check out my latest read "The Sympathizer", a first novel by a Vietnamese American that ranks among the best first novels I've ever read.

Bird is always a great superhero analogy!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2015)

> Yes, I agree the results are questionable. Lets move the margin of error and assume that only 50% actually believe it.
> 
> There- does that make you feel better? Me, not so much.




As Pixel explained, it's the context and the questions themselves that are the issue, not the margin of error.

By asking people a question in a poll like this, you're giving them permission to answer it in ways they would never respond in real life. You may even be asking questions they would never consider in real life.

And that's before you get to all the other framing pitfalls you see in every multiple-choice questionnaire. Look at what they ask you when you go to the doctor these days! "How many times in the last month have you dried your hands on a dog?"


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## Soundhound (May 8, 2015)

Done and done, thanks! My summer reading list is shaping up nicely. Not that my procrastination machine needs any help...



NYC Composer @ Fri May 08 said:


> Soundhound @ Fri May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Sigh. I miss him, and Christopher Hitchens and and and....
> ...


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri May 08 said:


> > Yes, I agree the results are questionable. Lets move the margin of error and assume that only 50% actually believe it.
> >
> > There- does that make you feel better? Me, not so much.
> 
> ...



Drying hands on a dog and death to apostates are matters which people would see very differently and take one much more seriously than the other.

I suggest (again) to you that yes, it gives people a context in which they can safely answer in a way they wouldn't in real life. It might disturb one even then, no? That they would choose the death answer for apostasy, even in a non consequential situation?

I also stand by the assumption that regardless of the percentage of error or contextual answering, there is a real percentage there who were quite serious and answered honestly, so where is your margin of comfort? Bring it down to 40%- feeling ok? How about 30%? 20%? Agreed that polling can be dicey, sometimes very wrong- but the Pew people are not exactly fly-by-nighters. Do you honestly believe there is zero takeaway from all of this?

Before this poll was taken I would NEVER have guessed these huge numbers, and it's certainly right to be skeptical of them- but after a certain point, it feels to me as if you'd like to bend the results to fit the narrative you want to stick with.

Oh, one more thing- Pixel didn't "explain." He postulated, just as I am postulating and you are postulating.


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## gbar (May 8, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri May 08 said:


> Look at what they ask you when you go to the doctor these days! "How many times in the last month have you dried your hands on a dog?"



lol

I didn't even ever think of this. Of course, my dogs hate getting wet (they're shar-peis), and it's a major drama to even bathe them every 3-4 months. If it's raining, they won't even go outside to go to the bathroom they hate it so much.

Which is weird because they will go for a walk in a torrential downpoor. Walk > getting wet.


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2015)

gbar @ Fri May 08 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Fri May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Look at what they ask you when you go to the doctor these days! "How many times in the last month have you dried your hands on a dog?"
> ...



Have you considered little doggie paw cuffs and a hose...no wait. That's insulting to pet people. Never mind. My bad. Delete after reading.


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## rayinstirling (May 8, 2015)

Daryl @ Fri May 08 said:


> chimuelo @ Fri May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > And as far as Polls are concerned, I can't remember the last time one was right.
> ...


Scotland and England formed a union, a partnership, you will have to point out to me the clause that says percentage of population has any bearing on that union. The use of percentage other than in the process of baking is THE most divisive element in economics. An increase in the price of bread obviously a lesser percentage of a rich persons income compared to that of the poor. The constant use of percentage is absolutely and categorically the basis for the rich getting richer and poor getting relatively poorer.


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## G.R. Baumann (May 9, 2015)

rayinstirling @ Sat May 09 said:


> The use of percentage....is THE most divisive element in economics.



Very true in deed, and this ain't the only one the high priests of this voodoo science taught thousands of students. The Keynesian Multiplier for example is still taught, though less and less thankfully. It basically stated that for every dollar the govenrment spent, private sector jobs would be created. Not a single person on the planet ever gave evidence, and test of time clearly failed as well, but still it is widely believed in governments and people are being told that governments can create private sector jobs and still believe that BS.

Since high finance has taken entire nations at ransom, a re-animated banksters mafia, the IMF, tours the world as well, again.

I am so reminded to a scene in Mel Gibsons film Apocalypto, where the high priests stand on top of a pyramid well knowing that in a few moments a solar eclipse will occure and using that event to fool they people with. 

Economics is the solar eclipse of our times.


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## Daryl (May 9, 2015)

rayinstirling @ Sat May 09 said:


> Daryl @ Fri May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > chimuelo @ Fri May 08 said:
> ...


Ray, I wasn't making any judgement, I was stating facts as I understood them.

BTW poverty is actually defined as a percentage. :wink: 

D


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## NYC Composer (May 9, 2015)

Not that any of this is going wildly OT, but actually this is going wildly OT.  

So the results of this poll that was taken in 2013 doesn't disturb anyone, because polls are always nonsense and unscientific. Further, if you gave the taken poll a possible error rate of 50%, thereby still stating that a very solid percentage of Muslims in many countries believe or state they believe in death for the sin of apostasy, this doesn't particularly bother anyone. Further yet, no one would be curious to see the results of a poll asking Muslims worldwide if they believe death is a proper penalty for insulting the Prophet (see thread title to that effect) because, once again, polls have no validity whatsoever.

Thank you for my re-education! May I have another?

Got it. Nothing to see here, move along, and aren't the scones lovely this morning?

:wink:


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## G.R. Baumann (May 9, 2015)

:lol: 

Well, honestly, I do not find this disturbing in the least Larry. First, the radical branch of this faith always had these views, so there is nothing really new to it. The increasing radicalisation of the muslim world however is of concern of course. Yes, polls can be deceptive, very much so, and often those creating the polls do have an agenda, nevertheless, some can be quite interesting, this exlcudes those concerning elections for me personally.


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## NYC Composer (May 9, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat May 09 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Well, honestly, I do not find this disturbing in the least Larry. First, the radical branch of this faith always had these views, so there is nothing really new to it. The increasing radicalisation of the muslim world however is of concern of course. Yes, polls can be deceptive, very much so, and often those creating the polls do have an agenda, nevertheless, some can be quite interesting, this exlcudes those concerning elections for me personally.



Increasing radicalization, yes. Sadly, we are not only talking about fanatics with the poll that interested you and I, Georg- however, what concerns me more than anything is home-brewed and small cell actors. There is going to be a real growth industry in "Homeland Security" type organizations in the Western world, and that is dismaying on any number of levels, not the least of which is the suspension of civil liberties that have already occurred here in the States and will no doubt pervade western Europe as well. All that said, I think it probably, sadly necessary.

Now, having bombs go off within a block or two of my wife in 1993 and 2001 have probably made me a mite oversensitive. I support every initiative towards peace, more prosperity or at least less poverty through jobs programs and economic aid, anti- radicalization through social media, inter and intra-religious overtures etc., but I think there's a storm brewing anyway. 

Time will tell. I don't let fear overwhelm my judgement and I live here quite proudly and somewhat defiantly, but in the future, I'm afraid that terrorism-deniers, those who have not taken these threats seriously enough, will have rude awakenings.


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## G.R. Baumann (May 9, 2015)

In my view the economic side of things are the overhwelming main factor in the social political development since 2008 because outdated economic theory and practice destabilize the entire planet.

I seem to remember that an austrian historian wrote in the forword to the 2052 club of rome report about his assumption on the near future, and he concluded that we could easily have a 1848 like situation developing in Europe in the next 20 years. I share this view.

The shower of inept politicos that govern today is most disturbing to observe, regardless where I looked at in more detail, Ireland, Germany, UK in particular are great examples of the decline. Technocrats and their disconnect to real world situations emphasize the situation.

Democratic sturtures are undermined and substituted with a financial oligarchy put bluntly in place by the vested interest groups that hold the majority of capital in our world.

Global GDP will grow at a much lesser rate and the tectonic shift from USA to the BRIC countries is a fact, but due to the lack of growth in more than 180 countries more than 3 billion people will be in extreme poverty. Adding more than 400 conflict zones and 21 active war theaters currently, and approximately 50 million people migrating from conflict zones adds some dramatic color to this picture.

You know Larry, sometimes I must pinch myself, sitting here enjoying the new Omnisphere.... you get my drift.


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## NYC Composer (May 9, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat May 09 said:


> In my view the economic side of things are the overhwelming main factor in the social political development since 2008 because outdated economic theory and practice destabilize the entire planet.
> 
> I seem to remember that an austrian historian wrote in the forword to the 2052 club of rome report about his assumption on the near future, and he concluded that we could easily have a 1848 like situation developing in Europe in the next 20 years. I share this view.
> 
> ...



I do get your drift, and of course you're right. I'm no lover of doom, and I do love me some Omnisphere, though I haven't upgraded yet.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 9, 2015)

Michael Lewis rocks, indeed!


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## pixel (May 9, 2015)

Polls depends also on: what kind of social (etc) group is asked, where and when.
Example: I've seen poll (very popular on internet) done by Polish pollster.
Topic: Does Polish immigrants have good live in UK. Answer: definitely not! Life in UK is a nightmare, Polish people are living on streets etc etc...
Who do she asked: homeless people. Where: shelter houses and areas where homeless people are around.

This is the quintessence of journal honestly :D 

Now we need to ask a question: what kind of people have been asked in main topic poll: educated, not educated, religious, not religious, in big cities, villages, mekkas... 
Most of polls are done to prove something and pollsters will do anything to prove their vision of world


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## pixel (May 9, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Fri May 08 said:


> Oh, one more thing- Pixel didn't "explain." He postulated, just as I am postulating and you are postulating.



True. <philosophy mode ON> Nothing can be ultimately explained in this world <philosophy mode OFF>


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