# An excellent question a child asked a Pope



## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2015)

Why, indeed? From the mouths of babes-

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/19/asia/phil ... index.html


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## FriFlo (Jan 19, 2015)

A classic atheist question to believers, asked by a catholic child. The pope replied, this is a question, that cannot be answered. Right he is.


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2015)

Whenever you get a 'why does God?' question I always laugh to myself.


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## tokatila (Jan 19, 2015)

adriancook @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Whenever you get a 'why does God?' question I always laugh to myself.



Because you have been blessed with a sense of humor.


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2015)

tokatila @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Whenever you get a 'why does God?' question I always laugh to myself.
> ...



The Pope I met in 1964 had a sense of humour. I didn't ask any 'why does God?' questions standing there in the Vatican as I recall. I get the feeling that the Pope's sense of humour would have suddenly diminished if I had. 

You might as well ask, 'why did Michelangelo Bonetti paint that ceiling?'


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2015)

adriancook @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> tokatila @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> ...



On the other hand, were you 12 and recently impoverished, surrounded by deprivation and horror?


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

> A classic atheist question to believers, asked by a catholic child. The pope replied, this is a question, that cannot be answered. Right he is.


That's not an "atheist" question. Believers ask that question as well. Heck, read the Psalms. David asked questions like that throughout the Psalms. And he was what the Bible called "A man after God's own heart".


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## chimuelo (Jan 19, 2015)

This is why Catholic Charities exist.
I would not recommend a charity as most are filled with staffers, future campaign speech writers, actresses and actors and the usual "administrators".
Even wounded warrior has become an excessive job creator outside of it's intended goals.

If you are truly compassionate for children like I am just give a bag of canned goods once a month to them.
I cannot afford money except at November and December, but by giving them canned foods and furniture it allows their operations to keep running, while larger donors give cash that goes right to the orphans for shelter and education.
These kids usually end up doing great things too.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2015)

I got nothing against Catholic charities as some of them do very good work, but I don't think it would have been a comforting answer to the existential question the child posed.
On the other hand, there isn't one.

Just one of the many reasons I'm a non spiritual, non religious agnostic apostate Jew.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> I got nothing against Catholic charities as some of them do very good work, but I don't think it would have been a comforting answer to the existential question the child posed.
> On the other hand, there isn't one.
> 
> Just one of the many reasons I'm a non spiritual, non religious agnostic apostate Jew.


Yeah, there's an answer, probably more than one. I'd go into it, but I know it would start arguments, but I've got no time for a long drawn-out argument. Arguing about religion goes nowhere.


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## muk (Jan 19, 2015)

It is a well known question that philosophers think about since antiquity. Anyone who wants to delve deeper should look up "theodicy".


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > tokatila @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> ...



Yes.



:mrgreen:


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## AC986 (Jan 19, 2015)

chimuelo @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> This is why Catholic Charities exist.
> I would not recommend a charity as most are filled with staffers, future campaign speech writers, actresses and actors and the usual "administrators".
> Even wounded warrior has become an excessive job creator outside of it's intended goals.
> 
> ...



My feelings about charities exactly.


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## Mike Marino (Jan 19, 2015)

> Yeah, there's an answer, probably more than one. I'd go into it, but I know it would start arguments, but I've got no time for a long drawn-out argument. Arguing about religion goes nowhere.


+1


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2015)

Because there's no magic puppeteer in the sky, kid. Whatever your definition of God is, that's not his realm - even if you are theistic (which I'm not in any traditional sense).

My question to both Michaels is why you have time to post that argument-provoking response if you don't have time for the argument? It wouldn't have occurred to me to argue with someone's religious beliefs, but now I really want to argue with you.


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## José Herring (Jan 19, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I got nothing against Catholic charities as some of them do very good work, but I don't think it would have been a comforting answer to the existential question the child posed.
> ...



There's an answer, nobody wants to hear it. 

If there is a God and we are God's children at some point we need to grow up and handle ourselves and our own lives and that of our fellow man and not wait around for some Deity that may or may not exist to take care of us.

Why are kids in the streets of the Philippians suffering? Simple, you and me and nobody else cares enough to do anything about it. We're all responsible for each other and we take very little responsibility beyond ourselves and our immediate family or tossing a few dollars in a jar or paying taxes. Those are a poor substitute for actually taking care of our fellow man.

I have an answer for the little girl, "why does God let the children in the streets suffer?" because I'm not strong enough to do anything about it. I wish to God I was, but I'm not. :cry: 

Little girl broke my heart. No child should suffer at all like that. Every child should be taken care of until such time they can take care of themselves. 

She's bigger than any Pope will ever be for believing and hoping when she has every reason not to.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> My question to both Michaels is why you have time to post that argument-provoking response if you don't have time for the argument? It wouldn't have occurred to me to argue with someone's religious beliefs, but now I really want to argue with you.


Oh gee whiz...
NYC said there is no answer, and I replied saying there is an answer. Big deal. 
Why is it an "argument-provoking response"? Now, if I laid out in detail what I think the answer is, then an argument would start. And it would go on and on and on and on. As it is now, it's just one guying saying one thing and another guy saying I don't agree.


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## Biome_Digital (Jan 19, 2015)

Your Biome is Digital.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > My question to both Michaels is why you have time to post that argument-provoking response if you don't have time for the argument? It wouldn't have occurred to me to argue with someone's religious beliefs, but now I really want to argue with you.
> ...



Michael- it's my belief that sometimes, not always, but sometimes- there's something to be learned or at least considered within a healhy discussion or debate, regardless of disagreements.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 19, 2015)

I'd like to join in on stating that I secretly have the answer to the question as well but like many others who've made hundreds to thousands of posts I just don't have the time.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 19, 2015)

The answer is 42.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2015)

420?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2015)

choc, PLEASE? PLEASE? PLEASE?


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## chimuelo (Jan 19, 2015)

Don't have to be religious to care about kids or give money to the Catholic Charities.
Ever heard of St. Vincents...?
That's also supported by Catholic Charities, but it's a place where Homeless guys can stay, but must work, and the rent is based on amount of income, which you are paid by people who hire from CC, so what's left over is a way up.
Or you can stagnate in a large Gym sized room with double bunks of the smelliest bastards on earth.

Got my Bass Player from there years ago, sent several to the Unions most I have no idea about, but if 30 or 40 guys and gals too, get back on their feet, that's what counts.

Praise The Lord....all of them.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> I'd like to join in on stating that I secretly have the answer to the question as well but like many others who've made hundreds to thousands of posts I just don't have the time.


Well, actually I have the time to give what I believe the answer is, but I don't have the time to get involved with the argument that would follow.

So, I'll give my answer, but I won't get involved in any argument about it.

First, I'll say that I feel for the Pope, because he was in a bad situation. I know that if a child asked me that question, I'd have an answer, but I wouldn't know how to explain it to the child in a way that the child could understand.

But thank goodness no child asked me this question.

I believe it all comes down to free will.

Many Christians believe that God takes micro-management of every situation, that he's got everything under strict control. They're the ones who, when tragedy strikes, will tell you that God has a purpose for it. 

But that's not what I believe. I believe that accidents do happen. 

I also believe God has given us free will (and have argued over and over again with Calvinists about that). With free will comes the natural consequences of free will, and unfortunately, the consequences of free will affect others, not just the one who exercised his free will. 

For example, a man has free will and decides to use that free will to shoot up a theatre full of people. The victims of his free will action didn't have anything to do with his free will decision, but they suffered because of it.

People today suffer because of free will of their own mistakes/actions or because of their ancestors' mistakes/actions, even if that free will action was exercised thousands of years ago.

So what about things that are not a result of anything that man has done? What about hurricanes, famine, earthquakes, etc? 

Well, I do think it has something to do with life being imperfect because of the fall of man, and to put it as the Bible puts it: "the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike". As I said earlier, accidents happen. There are some things that just don't have a purpose.

Tied into that is the the free will decision that resulted in sin and the fall of man, and how the fall of man changed even the nature and future of the earth, causing it to grow to be imperfect as time and man erode it.

So there you have it. It really didn't take me long to write this, because I've formed this opinion over decades of asking myself and God the big questions such as the child asked the Pope.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 19, 2015)

> why does God let the children in the streets suffer?



It is people who do that. 

80 of the wealthiest people have more than half the worlds population combined, 3.5 billion people in 2015. Of particular interest to me was the first graph which shows what happend after 2008 to date, and that I, amongst many others, predicted to happen in 2007. 

What german philosopher Jürgen Habermas called a "global heist" early, it is still called a financial crisis by governments, despite that, this was just one chapter in the world wide hostile transfer of assets and cash from the bottom to the top. The next chapter is already written in stone.

http://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfa...-wealth-having-all-wanting-more-190115-en.pdf


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Well, actually I have the time to give what I believe the answer is, but I don't have the time to get involved with the argument that would follow.
> 
> So, I'll give my answer, but I won't get involved in any argument about it.
> 
> .



Michael-I say this gently- after these two sentences, I decided not to read your post. If what you "have time for" is stating your position, and what you "don't have time for" is discussing it further, I "don't have the time" to read your post. People who can't or won't discuss their beliefs with others who might not share their point of view are not people I can learn with. They're people who are unwilling or afraid to reason with others and be challenged by them. I enjoy being challenged.

Be well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2015)

The free will line is used and abused a lot.

One thing's for sure: God commanded us all to get involved in right-wing politics.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 19, 2015)

Just adding food for thought:

http://mechanism.ucsd.edu/teaching/philbiology/SociobiologyandEvolutionaryPsychology.pdf


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, actually I have the time to give what I believe the answer is, but I don't have the time to get involved with the argument that would follow.
> ...



Good grief, I knew that this would happen. 

I knew that if I stated my belief a long argument that would end up going nowhere would break out, but I also knew that if I stated my belief but refused to get caught up in a meaningless argument about it, I would be accused of being unwilling or worse, afraid to to hear other opinions. 

How do you think you know me enough to say I am afraid to hear other opinions? Do you think I just adopted the first thought that came to my mind on this? Give me some credit. This is not some theory I just came up with. I arrived at my opinions over decades of questioning and studying the Bible. I read and heard other opinions all along the way. I arrived at this opinion after consideration of all other ideas.

What I am unwilling to do is get involved in a back-and-forth internet argument. You know what internet arguments are like.

All I wanted to do is express my opinion regarding whether there is an answer to the question. You didn't feel the need to explain how you arrived at the "no" answer, and I didn't feel the need to answer how I arrived at the "yes" answer.And now I wish I had stuck with that. In fact, I should have kept my trap shut in the first place.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2015)

I for one don't think any of that. The free will argument is nothing new and I wouldn't have thought you'd just come up with it a few minutes ago.

I both agree and disagree with it, depending on how it's used.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> I for one don't think any of that. The free will argument is nothing new and I wouldn't have thought you'd just come up with it a few minutes ago.
> 
> I both agree and disagree with it, depending on how it's used.


I hope my words weren't phrased in such a way that anyone would think I was claiming to have originated the free will theory. If so, I apologize for the misunderstanding.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2015)

They weren't.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> They weren't.


Thanks.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Because there's no magic puppeteer in the sky, kid. Whatever your definition of God is, that's not his realm - even if you are theistic (which I'm not in any traditional sense)


I read this post earlier, but it was lost on me what you were saying. I didn't understand that you were answering the question as if you were the Pope talking to the child. Thus, I didn't understand your point. But now I do, and it I think it's a very valid point, the "no puppeteer in the sky" bit. And I think it really gels with what I was saying, not only about free will, but also about God not being a micro-manager who chooses to take complete control of every thing.
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, Nick; we agree on something!


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 19, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> > why does God let the children in the streets suffer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now that is some intriguing thought. I am looking forward to reading that link. 

Off to bed now!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> ...



I don't know you well enough to say you are "afraid" to hear other opinions. You stated that you "wouldn't get involved in any argument about it." That indicated to me you wished to make your statement as definitive, that you are not open to other points of view nor discussion that might challenge your belief in any way. I don't feel that attitude is productive for me, so I chose not to read your point of view. What's your issue?

Arriving at your opinions after decades of questioning and reading the bible and considering all other ideas-well, the implication is that you've "arrived.". You're done.
Your mind is not open to other opinions that might influence yours. If that's the case, why ever discuss anything with anyone in any forum that might have other opinions, other than to state the rectitude of your own? 

I have invited your views in the past and continue to do so, Michael. However, if the codicil is "but I will not discuss them" then please state them as you wish and I will let others read them and respond. Me, at well over 100 years old-I'm not quite done thinking about things :wink: nor do I think discussion amongst civil, intelligent people is ever a waste of time.


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## FriFlo (Jan 20, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> > A classic atheist question to believers, asked by a catholic child. The pope replied, this is a question, that cannot be answered. Right he is.
> 
> 
> That's not an "atheist" question. Believers ask that question as well. Heck, read the Psalms. David asked questions like that throughout the Psalms. And he was what the Bible called "A man after God's own heart".


It can still be a classic atheist question, even when believers might ask it, too. The difference is, believers have to be content with the only answer a religious man can give: there is no answer to that question. For the atheist it is one of the many clear signs, that there is no god, as most people might want to believe in. He does not swallow "God moves in mysterious ways!"


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 20, 2015)

FriFlo @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> It can still be a classic atheist question, even when believers might ask it, too. The difference is, believers have to be content with the only answer a religious man can give: there is no answer to that question.



If you think that the only answer a "religious man" can give is that there is no answer, you've never bothered to research the issue. Plenty of theologians have given their answers. Heck, I gave two answers in this thread already.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 20, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> I don't know you well enough to say you are "afraid" to hear other opinions. You stated that you "wouldn't get involved in any argument about it." That indicated to me you wished to make your statement as definitive, that you are not open to other points of view nor discussion that might challenge your belief in any way. I don't feel that attitude is productive for me, so I chose not to read your point of view. What's your issue?
> 
> Arriving at your opinions after decades of questioning and reading the bible and considering all other ideas-well, the implication is that you've "arrived.". You're done.
> Your mind is not open to other opinions that might influence yours. If that's the case, why ever discuss anything with anyone in any forum that might have other opinions, other than to state the rectitude of your own?
> ...



It's not that I wish to avoid discussion of this issue. I have discussions about this subject and others like it quite often, actually. And I learn from them. 

But having a discussion in real life with people I know is very very different than having an internet argument. I do try to avoid arguments on the internet, simply because I've been involved in way too many and I have seen that they go nowhere. I say I "try" because I often fail. In fact, I'm arguing now with you and FriFlo. 

Anyways, I'll close this out the exact same way I closed out my other post:

All I wanted to do is express my opinion regarding whether there is an answer to the question. You didn't feel the need to explain how you arrived at the "no" answer, and I didn't feel the need to answer how I arrived at the "yes" answer.And now I wish I had stuck with that. In fact, I should have kept my trap shut in the first place.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 20, 2015)

One day the Pope fell ill. The doctors looked at him and said, “The Pope-a, he need a new heart.”

All the Bishops gathered in the Vatican because, “Pope-a, he need a new heart.”

One Bishop says, “We shall-a drop a feather from the balcony and who it lands, he give a the Pope-a his heart.”

All the Bishops agree. 

Someone drops the feather and as it floats down towards one Bishop he proclaims, “Pope-a, take a my heart!” Poof! He blows the feather back up. It comes down towards another. “Pope-a, please take-a my heart!” Poof! “Pope-a….!” Poof!…..





yea, this is that one joke i know….


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## rayinstirling (Jan 20, 2015)

Neil deGrasse Tyson is my pope


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## NYC Composer (Jan 20, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know you well enough to say you are "afraid" to hear other opinions. You stated that you "wouldn't get involved in any argument about it." That indicated to me you wished to make your statement as definitive, that you are not open to other points of view nor discussion that might challenge your belief in any way. I don't feel that attitude is productive for me, so I chose not to read your point of view. What's your issue?
> ...



Michael, my friend- I didn't close the door on ANY discussion about ANY of my posts, and I never have. You have but to ask if you want me to expound.  

My experience is different than yours. In expressing my opinions, I get to read them back and critique them, and so do others. I sometimes learn something from the points of view of others. Sometimes just reading myself back is instructional. Some discussions go nowhere, that's true. Some are thought provoking. 

Gosh- not every discussion on the 'net is a useless "Internet argument!"


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 20, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> Michael, my friend- I didn't close the door on ANY discussion about ANY of my posts, and I never have. You have but to ask if you want me to expound.



I'm not closing the door on discussion of my thoughts. I just said I wasn't going to get into any argument about it. You and whoever else can discuss it all you want. Just know that if you say you disagree, I won't argue with you. I did what I aimed to do; express my opinion and publicly state disagreement with the idea that there is no answer.



NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> My experience is different than yours. In expressing my opinions, I get to read them back and critique them, and so do others. I sometimes learn something from the points of view of others. Sometimes just reading myself back is instructional. Some discussions go nowhere, that's true. Some are thought provoking.



And that's the experience I have with talking face to face with someone I know (well, except the "reading it back" part). I have changed my opinions on things because of talking with people I know.

But I just don't feel that way about internet arguments. They have never ended well for me. So why argue on the internet?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 20, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael, my friend- I didn't close the door on ANY discussion about ANY of my posts, and I never have. You have but to ask if you want me to expound.
> ...



Okay, Michael. I understand what you're saying. Cheers.


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## jleckie (Jan 20, 2015)

Michael, I am glad you decided to respond. Good post.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 20, 2015)

Sadly, I don't see a solution to man's inhumanity to man, nor to poverty as I believe the poor will always be among us. I have read the scrolls of my religion pretty closely, and then the accompanying scholarly dialogues and conclusions and interpretations. After 10 years of religious instruction, I still could never get over the Holocaust, then later Cambodia and Rwanda, nor the poverty we see here in America. There is no comfort for me in faith as I am, after many years of thought, agnostic. The only way I've been able to address the quandaries of suffering is through the little actions I take in my life. I've learned to ignore the noise of what people say they are or the denominations they assign themselves to (or don't) and I just observe their actions, which tells me the important things.

I think the Pope was thrown a curve ball by that child. I suspect she really was looking for an answer. I'm sure the Pope works daily to decrease suffering in the world to the degree he can, but the weight of all that religious authority, power and responsibility must be daunting-especially when faced with shaken and confused children who need care and support, and so many others who are left adrift like human litter.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 20, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> Sadly, I don't see a solution to man's inhumanity to man, nor to poverty ....



I do.

The only solution I can think of is to consciously increase empathy, the understanding ofother peoples condition from THEIR perspective. To recognize that humans have a tendency to make bad decisions is perhaps the first step.

Apart from that a "democratic social economy" would need to develop, in contrast to the existing oligarchic economical structures that are based on flawed concepts. These concepts are sold to the masses as scientific, while in deed they are ideologically biased and perform their woodoo with statisticians and excel spread sheet schizophrenics, or better known as economists.

The major flaw in all these ideologies, be it Keynes, Hayek, Friedmann, ___fill in your choice of accepted economic model, is the paradigma of constant growth as well as the omission fo the exponential function. (see Prof. Albert Bartlett) 

On top, since 2008 we witness the criminal heist of banksters and their political cronies that brought down entire nations who were in their path of destruction and hostile takeovers.

Unfortuantely, this situation continues with further concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few, while the political tenor of "pretend and extend" (Yanis Varoufakis) dominates policies. Eventually, it will reach a tipping point and we will see much increased social upheavals, if not revolution like 1848 situations.

just thinking out loud....


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## NYC Composer (Jan 20, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly, I don't see a solution to man's inhumanity to man, nor to poverty ....
> ...



G.R.-I agree with everything you say except the conclusion. 

It's all very well and good to predict social unrest and upheaval-it happens from time to time due to economics or religious/cultural differences-but things ultimately revert to have and have nots. At what point in history has poverty ever been eliminated? At which point did classism and greed end? I believe those last to be inherent in the human psyche. 

The Communist experiments have been indicative of how human nature works-privilege and wealth always seem to gravitate towards the leaders of whatever party or ideology that is dominant. We're presently seeing what happens in socialist Europe when heterogeneous populations clash with differing cultures, even ones that have been resident for decades.

I wish for a better world and I work on my little corner, but the trends in the world today do not influence me to feel Utopian. I do not see the Pope opening up the coffers of the Vatican to address the problem of street children in the Phillipines anymore than I see Jamie Dimon of J.P. Morgan Chase doing so. Even if they both did, I think the problem would prove difficult to solve with money alone.

(By the way, I personally agree that economics is a voodoo science  )


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## FriFlo (Jan 21, 2015)

> If you think that the only answer a "religious man" can give is that there is no answer, you've never bothered to research the issue. Plenty of theologians have given their answers. Heck, I gave two answers in this thread already.


I read your answer, but it did not satisfy me at all. I find the popes answer more truthful. What strikes me, why do you have to feel pissed off? I do not believe in God and I find it quite difficult to understand in our time how anyone with some education can, but I still respect those people. I did have religious education in school and at church. Yet, you keep insisting, I didn't read in the bible ... Yes, there are some answers to some questions there, but IMO they can only satisfy a ten year old. So, why not keep each other with respect? I find your believes infantile, you find my lack of believe ... (set what ever word you find fitting here)! Apart from that, we get along pretty well, can we not?


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## peksi (Jan 21, 2015)

This question is an answer by itself, when we ask it in front mirror. Everyone of us can do something about it if we choose to. 

That is why there is so much pain and poverty in the world.


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## AC986 (Jan 21, 2015)

None of you people here understand the difference between Deity and moral compass. A lot of you seem to think that education somehow is used as an excuse in the way you choose to think. Suddenly because everyone thinks they're educated, everything else is just superstition and voodoo. I don't have any problem whatsoever with atheists, agnostics or anything. What worries me is playing off one thought against another that are so poles apart,it's weird.


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## Allegro (Jan 21, 2015)

The bigger the claim, the more justification it needs.
(Not to be confused with the literal BIG in size o=? )

- I have a cat in my backyard.
- I have a dinosaur in my backyard.

- If someone is saying that he/she doesn't believe in my dinosaur claim until I prove it, that person is NOT wrong.
- If I have no evidence but really FEEL that this dino egg story my grandmother told me when I was a kid must've been true, and the egg would've hatched by now, then I better prove it before calling others wrong. 
I can't throw this argument: 
"Then where do you think that egg went? You don't have the answer to my question so just believe in what I say"

Besides, I am sure no one is going to hell, even the non believers. right?
Because if the supreme mighty fair God decides to hide himself, can pick favorites among his own creations, grant them extraordinary abilities, send angels and talk to them directly, then he will definitely compensate for that. Justice shall be served.


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## tokatila (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm just happy that if I the Hell and the Heaven exist, I have friends and family in both.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 21, 2015)

I think doing good without promise of any reward except the satisfaction you take from it is learned behavior that should be taught and encouraged, and that people should measure each other by what they do, not what they say or what they say they are or aren't....

But back to the child/Pope. If you were the big P, what answer would you have for the distraught urchin, Adrian? (Yes, YOU in the back row!)


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## Sebastianmu (Jan 21, 2015)

There is no intervention detectable, even when the most cruel things are taking place. 
That seems to contradict with certain attributes that people tend to ascribe to what they call "god": if he is all-good and all-powerful, why does he allow horrible things to happen? Either he can't or he doesn't want to help! Either he's not all-powerful or he's not all-good. 

And then people come up and say: he allows bad things to happen in order to achieve some higher good that couldn't be achieved otherwise (it's often some sort of educational purpose). But that just means: he's not all-powerful. If he's bound to a certain way of doing things, even if that way involves unwelcome side effects (like huge amounts of pain for the participants) - he's not all-powerful. He has to obey to certain laws that precede him, and thus, he wouldn't be the ultimate rule-maker anymore. In a way, he ceases to be god.

If he's all-powerful but not all-good, the world makes much more sense immediately, but you might want to reconsider if you really want to worship someone like that. 

I bet, if you're religious, you'll give up on "all-powerful" more easily than on "all-good". For me, who is not, the whole thing is as much a problem as why the balding current king of France doesn't use rogaine.


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## AC986 (Jan 21, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> But back to the child/Pope. If you were the big P, what answer would you have for the distraught urchin, Adrian? (Yes, YOU in the back row!)



Larry I promised I would smother you in garlic before we entered the Abbey if you ever came to visit. I'll even wear a homburg. 

What you need to understand is that Popes, Saints and Christ knows what else have been dealing with the 'Why does God?' question for 2000 years. I can't remember what I said to the Pope all those years ago, but it was probably inane.


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## tokatila (Jan 21, 2015)

Sebastianmu @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> If he's all-powerful but not all-good, the world makes much more sense immediately, but you might want to reconsider if you really want to worship someone like that.



Religion was so much cooler back in a days, Thor & Zeus & Co. Did you know that Thursday is originally derived from "Thor's day"?

I'm currently building an altar for Bragi (Norwegian God of music) in my backyard, maybe that will help with my writing for strings.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 21, 2015)

adriancook @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 21 said:
> 
> 
> > But back to the child/Pope. If you were the big P, what answer would you have for the distraught urchin, Adrian? (Yes, YOU in the back row!)
> ...



Oh please. I was INUNDATED with religious instruction and study. I was sent to Hebrew school. I went to Sunday school. I was Bar Mitzvah-ed, I was CONFIRMED in the friggin' temple. I'm also an autodidact. I've read a hundred tomes about faith. I've been to about a dozen masses. I live a block from the largest Anglican cathedral in North America.

My wife and principal debate partner , the converted Catholic school girl, is a graduate of Fordham college with a minor in theology, and Fordham is essentially Jesuit Nirvana in the States, so....yeah, I kinda know a little about the explorations of the nature of God. We Chosen do a little questioning here and there, I'll have you know.

I didn't ASK you what I need to understand- I asked you something quite specific which is far more relevant to the OP than this recent turn the thread has taken. Thank you ever so! :::sniff:::


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## AC986 (Jan 21, 2015)

tokatila @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> I'm currently building an altar for Bragi (Norwegian God of music) in my backyard, maybe that will help with my writing for strings.



It will, but only if you have faith in it.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 21, 2015)

FriFlo @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> > If you think that the only answer a "religious man" can give is that there is no answer, you've never bothered to research the issue. Plenty of theologians have given their answers. Heck, I gave two answers in this thread already.
> 
> 
> I read your answer, but it did not satisfy me at all. I find the popes answer more truthful. What strikes me, why do you have to feel pissed off?



I sincerely apologize if I gave the impression that I'm pissed off. I did not mean to give that impression at all, because I'm not pissed. My statement "you haven't researched the issue" wasn't meant as an insult. But I can definitely see why it would be taken that way, and again, I am very very sorry for my mistake.

I shouldn't have written it that way. What I should have written was "Theologians have been giving answers for that for thousands of years. It may not be answers that you agree with or that are correct, but they are answers never-the-less".


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 21, 2015)

peksi @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> This question is an answer by itself, when we ask it in front mirror. Everyone of us can do something about it if we choose to.
> 
> That is why there is so much pain and poverty in the world.



Hard-hitting and painful, yet true.

But what fun is taking the plank out of our own eyes when can point out the specks in our brother's eye?


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## PerryD (Jan 21, 2015)

I don't object at all to seeing this topic and reading all the posts. It does give me a strange urge to find a religious forum and ask what their favorite DAW is. 
Seriously, I enjoy seeing perspectives on religion, especially from fellow musicians.
Carry on.  
-Perry-


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## AC986 (Jan 22, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> Oh please. I was INUNDATED with religious instruction and study. I was sent to Hebrew school. I went to Sunday school. I was Bar Mitzvah-ed, I was CONFIRMED in the friggin' temple. I'm also an autodidact. I've read a hundred tomes about faith. I've been to about a dozen masses. I live a block from the largest Anglican cathedral in North America.
> 
> My wife and principal debate partner , the converted Catholic school girl, is a graduate of Fordham college with a minor in theology, and Fordham is essentially Jesuit Nirvana in the States, so....yeah, I kinda know a little about the explorations of the nature of God. We Chosen do a little questioning here and there, I'll have you know.
> 
> I didn't ASK you what I need to understand- I asked you something quite specific which is far more relevant to the OP than this recent turn the thread has taken. Thank you ever so! :::sniff:::



Well…….That's seriously put me in _my _place.

You ask your wife (there's hope for you yet :mrgreen: ) about asking Catholics specific questions, especially _English_ catholics and see what she comes back with. 

My wife, on the other hand, is a member of a cult religion (no blame attached) based on divorce, murdering of wives, murder, attempted murder, arson, destruction, theft, gout, interstellar marriages and general mayhem. This is what I have to deal with!!!! The 'why does God' question seems a bit redundant after that. You may as well ask, 'did Jesus own the clothes that he wore?'

:shock:


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## G.R. Baumann (Jan 22, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> G.R.-I agree with everything you say except the conclusion.
> 
> ....
> 
> (By the way, I personally agree that economics is a voodoo science  )



:D It still is somewhat difficult to predict the future. :wink: 

The way societies are organised requires a serious overhaul, and not only due to the fact of changed and ultimately better understood underlying resources available to us.

This of course is incompatible with the current paradigm of constant growth and the subconsequent policies applied to capital, production, work, competition et al.

Religious leaders of different belief systems acknowledged that since long, and while they may differ in their fundamentals, they came to similiar conclusions. 

The world of politics however is the realm of lip services and power games, and rarely succeeds to bring forward the most required changes, the banking heist of 2008 and the political results speak a clear language in that respect, kicking the can further down the road.

The interconnectedness of world events we witness is perhaps more difficult to understand for the masses, and media is not helping the bigger picture here either, hence it remains a individual and intellectual task to connect the dots.

The many war theaters that emerged in the post 2008 world are enough reason for the greatest concern that the situations can easily get out of hand, in particular the recent US /EU policy to alienate Russia and corner them. The EU commission and politicos in their ultimate wisdom aggressively extended eastwards. The Ukraine disaster is the direct result of the most idiotic policies and a heavy burden and responsibility is now on EU shoulders in that respect. 

Overpopulation is another aspect that is often ridiculed. In Biology it is long understood and described what happens when overpopulation of one species takes place.

All in all, it is of course a most difficult subject to discuss as per interconnectedness of events.

The simple question asked by this kiddo is a very good one, and if nothing else, it made some people stop and re think, and this is the only way change can start... re think. 

Best
G


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## AC986 (Jan 22, 2015)

The EU is now a basket case with today's QE. I wouldn't be surprised to see the euro collapse against a basket of currencies. Germany of course will not be happy about any of this at all.

Overpopulation is almost impossible to make the average moron understand. It's a complete waste of time even attempting talking about overpopulation to 99% of humans. Even a rabbit understands it. In the end, however many years hence, it will become obligatory by law in a lot of places and this will also be attributed to immigration.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 22, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> The simple question asked by this kiddo is a very good one, and if nothing else, it made some people stop and re think, and this is the only way change can start... re think.
> 
> Best
> G



THIS! As simple as it was and redundant throughout time, it pulled the heartstrings and re-started thinking and discussion about these awful issues.

On my part, it spurred me to some action, which is even better.

[email protected]??


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 22, 2015)

tokatila @ Wed Jan 21 said:


> I'm just happy that if I the Hell and the Heaven exist, I have friends and family in both.


Well, that's a first. In all my discussions about hell, I've never heard anyone say he's glad he has friends and family there.
I have heard people say they're happy they live in Austin, Texas, but to be happy their family lives there s just plain mean...


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## Harry (Jan 23, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> tokatila @ Wed Jan 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just happy that if I the Hell and the Heaven exist, I have friends and family in both.
> ...



#whoosh ...


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 23, 2015)

Harry @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Thu Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > tokatila @ Wed Jan 21 said:
> ...


Okay, what went over my head?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 23, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Harry @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Thu Jan 22 said:
> ...



Didn't get that one either.

Somewhat OT-Michael, do you believe in a literal heaven and hell?


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 23, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Harry @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> ...



Yes, I believe in a literal heaven and hell.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 23, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> ...



That must give you a great deal of incentive to Do Good.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 23, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> ...



No, not at all. I am saved by grace, not by works. if I had to earn my way to Heaven, I'd definitely not get there.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 23, 2015)

Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> ...



Interesting. I'm going to have to ponder that a bit.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jan 23, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> ...



It's nothing new I came up with, I assure you. I'm not dumb, but I ain't that smart, ha ha. It's the core of the Christian faith; that salvation can not be earned but rather is a free gift from God.

If you would like some Bible verses about it, I'd love to provide. Here's a website as well.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Romans-road-salvation.html


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## NYC Composer (Jan 23, 2015)

What a deal! Is there a maintenance plan, or can you skate on the faith alone? You've said doing works is not required to achieve grace- what is, other than stated fealty to God?

Edit- I meant to maintain a state of grace, not to achieve it.


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## AC986 (Jan 24, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> ...



It's an insurance policy. And a free one too. And a moral compass.

Larry you guys had more prophets than Dave Smith. I don't get your slightly jaundiced perception here. Nobody is saying someone is sitting on a cloud.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2015)

Not jaundiced- diametrically opposed in principle. My belief is that nothing anyone says nor what words they use to define themselves (Christian, Jew, agnostic, spiritual, bicycle enthusiast) matters much except as self definition and perhaps a reference point. The only thing that matters to me is the actions they do or don't take.

Now having said that, I don't have any desire to start a Church of Me (although as verbose and dogged as I am, it might be profitable!) so I don't insist anyone agree with me or come around to my point of view. I prefer to simply state it, listen to others state theirs and discuss it all with as much humor, good will, sincerity and as little acrimony as possible.

Oh, and- if the belief in a literal heaven and hell isn't incentivizing, I don't see what could be. Endless happiness or eternal fiery perdition?? Cake or death???


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## AC986 (Jan 24, 2015)

Well Larry, Cake or Death is a brilliant sales tool right? Why? Because like all good salesmen, he gives you 2 choices. Choose the the blue one or the green one. Bit like The Matrix.

The perception of anything as etherial on how religions work is not going to work on a blue or green choice. You could ask 1000 people, all of the same denomination, about their literal heaven and get 1000 different answers and another 1000 different answers on their literal hell.

Look for instance, at Pressburger & Powell's A Matter of Life and Death. A literal translation of it all based on post war propaganda of a sort that brought Great Britain and the USA closer together after the mayhem. And so on with before and after to the present day translations. It's a Wonderful Life is another one.

They generally have one thing in common. Moral compass.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2015)

So many moral compasses, so little time. Who is the judge of whether that compass is pointing one in the right direction? I'm sure the commanders who ordered the carpet bombing of Dresden thought they were doing God's work. After all, the God of my Fathers was known for a certain vengeful righteousness. See /Passover/Egyptians/Red Sea.

But all of that is a digression. Once again, for me, a person is defined by his/ her actions.
Everything else is secondary. To ME.


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## AC986 (Jan 24, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> So many moral compasses, so little time. Who is the judge of whether that compass is pointing one in the right direction? I'm sure the commanders who ordered the carpet bombing of Dresden thought they were doing God's work. After all, the God of my Fathers was known for a certain vengeful righteousness. See /Passover/Egyptians/Red Sea.



You seem to be suggesting here Larry that every action and reaction taken is somehow linked to God and a moral compass. It's not black and white. I thought I already made that clear with examples above. Every action taken by humans is a choice. Choices don't have to necessarily conform with what might be termed as righteous.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2015)

Fighting under skies the gods have long since departed.

^ That was a line in the textbook from an international relations course I took in college.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2015)

adriancook @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > So many moral compasses, so little time. Who is the judge of whether that compass is pointing one in the right direction? I'm sure the commanders who ordered the carpet bombing of Dresden thought they were doing God's work. After all, the God of my Fathers was known for a certain vengeful righteousness. See /Passover/Egyptians/Red Sea.
> ...



But many people define themselves as living under a religious umbrella that defines their choices and therefore their actions. They render unto Caesar as required, but the rest is God's purview.


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## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2015)




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## AC986 (Jan 26, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> But many people define themselves as living under a religious umbrella that defines their choices and therefore their actions. They render unto Caesar as required, but the rest is God's purview.



There was a Catholic Priest, a C of E reverend and a Jewish Rabbi out playing golf one day and when they get to the 18th green, they decide it's been a good day and they need to do something religious.

So they draw a big circle on the green and they decide to give all the money they have on them to God.

The Catholic priest starts off with 'we take all the money out of our pockets and we stand in the circle and we throw all the money in the air and whatever lands in the circle we give to God'.

The Reverend says no. 'We throw all the money into the air and all the money that lands outside the circle we give to God."

The Rabbi says too complicated. 'We throw all the money into the air and whatever God wants, he keeps.'


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