# To "spec" or not to "spec".......?



## kid-surf (Aug 29, 2006)

Just wondering what your guys take is on spec-ing for gigs. Seems like many people are really bad a connecting the dots even when it may seem obvious to the composer. So I'm wondering who here still feels like they have to spec, and who doesn't have to (reputation)... and who of us refuses to spec.

And if you refuse to spec how do you get around it? (assuming you've not worked with this team before and aren't a blood relative.  )

conjecture --- really though, sometimes I'm just amazed that so many people (artists? Can I use that term to describe a director and/or producer?) have a hard time imagining a composer doing the music they want when the composer may have something that's pretty dang close already.

(that was supposed to sound like a bitchy rant.  So if it's too mellow please add cuss words where inappropriate  )


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## Scott Cairns (Aug 29, 2006)

Hey dude, I tend to make the decision to spec or not based on the project and/or the client.

Recently, a regular client of mine approached me for some music in a style Id not written before. They wanted to see if I could pull off the genre (rightly so I guess) before commiting me to the project. I wrote a 1:00 demo, they were happy and I got the gig.

I also did a 30 second spec recently for a really big client who I wanted to work for, I figured it was worthwhile since it could lead to a lot of work with a mojor company.

The other thing is, I guess you always have that track under your belt if you need it later, even if you dont get the gig.

I think the only time I wouldnt write a spec cue, was if the job was small and one-off and fairly straight-forward in terms of style/genre. I would politely point them towards my demos and ask them to make a decision from there.


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## jeffc (Aug 29, 2006)

Kid - 

I agree with Scott on this, I think you've really got to spec in the early stages. I actually embrace it and look forward to the chance to demo - at least I know what they hear will at least be remotely in the ballpark instead of a general demo that gets gonged after the first cue. I know on the last two gigs I got, I demoed my *ss of, several times. And you know what, at the end of the day I got it because my demo sounded like what they wanted to hear. If I refused to 'spec', someone else would have gotten it, plain and simple. In fact, I can't imagine a newer composer ever getting a gig without doing spec demos, unless he's related to someone!

I also think this is where someone who can hustle and knows how to make things 'sound' good quickly has the advantage. Some 'old school' guys, no disrespect, can write circles around most people but if they have to spec quickly, it might sound not that great. And I think, unfortunately, people sometimes react to the 'sound' of a demo as much as the notes, if not moreso. Someone might write the most harmonically complex thing that's just killer, but if the drums sound like a casio, the person listening probably won't get past that and recognize the genius of the writing.

Way I look at it is, if you know your gear and stuff, you can crank out a minute or so spec demo in an hour of two. I think it's definitely worth the risk. Or maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, in which case, I hope nobody else does spec demos...... more for me!


Jeff


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## Mike Greene (Aug 29, 2006)

I do spec demos all the time. Like Scott says, if the project seems worthwhile, I consider it a cost of doing business.

There's a show I'm still hoping to get where in an attempt to set myself apart, I voluntarily did a few big band tracks that I know the show will need. I spent $2,550 on singers and players . . . on a show where the odds are still against me! I think of it as gambling. $2,550 and several days of my time is a lot to risk, but the payoff is so high, both in terms of money and resume credit, that it's worth it. Plus, of course, if I lose, I still get to keep the tracks.

On Sleeper Cell, I spent a little over a grand of my own money on demos, competing with a bunch of other guys. It paid off not only in terms of the $10k fee I was paid, but even more importantly: the credit, which for me was huge.

I disagree with Jeff about cranking out a spec demo in an hour or two. At least for me, spec demos get extra scrutiny and I have to make sure they absolutely kill. My goal isn't just to prove I can write in a certain style. Instead it's that I have to prove I'm better than all the other people competing.

I agree with Jeff, though, that I would prefer if no one else did spec demos! :mrgreen: 

- Mike Greene


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## midphase (Aug 30, 2006)

I have done and continue to do specs...but I'm generally cautious about getting into a situation where the odds of me getting the gig are so remote that it really comes down to pure luck and there's a good chance they might never actually get to hear my spec cue.

I think the type of project and the payoff definitely play a big role. I would spec for Spielberg until I was blue in the face...but there's no way I'd spec for a low budget indie without having a damn good feeling that it would help my career and that the director had a good vibe about me.

For as many guys who have specd and got the gig, I know twice as many who never did and got the gig (and 10 times as many who did and still didn't get the gig)....so it's really pretty arbitrary and unpredictable if you ask me. I've seen directors gravitate towards tracks which were rather lackluster and sounded as if they were thrown together in 30 minutes when there were superior tracks in the pile that just didn't register with what the director wanted.

It's a long winded answer, but I think that it's always a good idea to have at least one meeting in person with the director and producer before agreeing to spec some music. I usually ask many questions and try to get a really good idea of what they're looking for before I sit down to write something on spec...otherwise I'm just guessing and in my experience that has never paid off.


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## kid-surf (Aug 30, 2006)

Ok cool...

Seems like we're all on the same page. Or maybe that's not cool, cause we're all demoing. Ha!

Yeah thats my feeling as well, what you guys said. I thought of this question actually because an acquaintance of mine told me they don't do spec. But! This person is a well respected composer doing fairly large studio films. But my thinking was that it probably wasn't the norm for many of us who aren't "the man" to NOT spec. But what do I know... I just know what I do and what I'm constantly asked to do which is spec. The last two gigs I've gotten I didn't have to spec. But so many times it's specing for me.

*Scott --* Hey dude. I likewise, look at it as "hey, now I have this cue regardless... so it'll get me something down the line if not this". Like Jeff, I would prefer to demo as well. Same reason, I feel it's my best shot at nailing exactly what they want. Like you, the only time I'm not willing to spec is if it's a really small gig. Yet I do wonder how lazy the other side of the fence is getting when they're asking for like 2-3 specs before they decide. A gig I did recently I told them "I can do this with my eyes closed and nail what you want, I promise". Was risky, I could have sounded egotistical but they went with me without a spec and they are thrilled with what I did. Maybe I just find it interesting that some people trust you and believe you and some just don't til they hear "exactly" what they want. 

*Jeff --* I hope you're right about the "sound" of things. I would say that is one of my strong suits as I have an engineering/mixing background. And with so many of these films that want a sampled score now a days due to no budget for recording (even studio films now, which is an interesting concept) I too would say that it is an important skill to have these days. And thankfully so in my case (as I'm no JW). Hustling and making things 'sound' good is more what I'm probably best at vs the genius writing. So hopefully that'll get me somewhere much higher in the long run. (not to put myself completely down though, because I feel I'm good at reading scenes and creating a sensibility/flow that works. Since I feel it's about the story not my ego as a composer.)


*Mike --* i would guess Jeff's comment was just to say that if you know how to do things quickly, things which 'sound good', you've got a good shot at landing those gigs in this new age of scoring. In this day in age I think I agree. Although, It would usually take me a bit longer than an hour or two to write and mix something I felt was strong. Depends on the cue really. Give me a day and I can do something that's pretty cool... something that 'sounds good' anyway. 

But yeah, it's probably true, you gotta spend money to make money. I'm like you in that I really want to kick the dude's ass who's specing against me.  Nothing personal. Competition is a good thing.

Btw -- I'm specing for a theme soon, couple weeks out. Wonder if you'll get it instead of me. :mrgreen: And no I won't say what it's for and tip you off.  I'm gonna hustle like crazy to get that. Maybe you can give me some tips. No really.... :D The creator/producer is actually a client of my wife's. One of those relationships has to work out one of these times. But I always come back to; I have the connections, I just need to get so good (in the style I do) that it's a no brainer to use me in those cases. Even if I don't have as many theme credits as you. :D (meaning I have not one) 

Thanks for the thoughts guys... glad I'm not some lone fool specing while you guys are forcing them to make a choice based on what you've already done.


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## kid-surf (Aug 30, 2006)

Kays -- I saw your response after I was off and typing my novel...

Well, I liked your long winded response I like to know what people think I find it interesting. So thanks for taking the time.

A few things you say are interesting to me.

*"I have done and continue to do specs...but I'm generally cautious about getting into a situation where the odds of me getting the gig are so remote that it really comes down to pure luck and there's a good chance they might never actually get to hear my spec cue. "*

What do you mean by that when you say "might not get to hear your cue" ?


I agree with you in that it seems a bit arbitrary to me too. And I've been surprised a few times at what is chosen. I believe the newer the director the easier it is to fool them with cues that don't "feel" like anything yet are maybe big sounding and/or simply sound "cliche filmic". Yet to my ears it may sound lackluster as you say. But I guess that's not a director I want a relationship with anyway.

It is tricky to to figure out what is going to turn a director on.

*"It's a long winded answer, but I think that it's always a good idea to have at least one meeting in person with the director and producer before agreeing to spec some music. I usually ask many questions and try to get a really good idea of what they're looking for before I sit down to write something on spec...otherwise I'm just guessing and in my experience that has never paid off."*

I agree... hasn't paid off for me either. Guessing at what they want is a great way to get fired. And at that point it will never matter that you would have done the perfect score had you had any directive at all. You're the one left looking like a fool. No way to change the perception at that point.

Coincidentally --- i just spotted today. I like knowing what the director is looking for. A good spotting session is priceless. The open titles are signed off. And I even got a hug from the producer they loved it that much. (will work for hugs, if the the producer is a woman  ) 


But the thing is, I did a good job of convincing them from the get go that I would nail it. I think so much of this is that head game, trying to get them to trust you and to chill out and relax. I guess specing is one way of gaining some trust. But I feel it's mostly the hustle in the "face to face".


I still hold the quote in my head from a particular director I want to work with some day. He doesn't make people spec. He said to me "If I like someone's sensibilities I know they'll give me the music I wanted sooner or later, I trust them".


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## Thonex (Aug 30, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Aug 30 said:


> What do you mean by that when you say "might not get to hear your cue" ?


I believe he's talking about "cattle calls"... where ton's of people are submitting and your demo might get lost in the shuffle.

I tend to avoid those... or I ask the producer when the deadline for submission is... he tells me... I then tell him that I can't meet that deadline because of a huge project I'm doing.... but I'd be happy to submit afterwards that if they haven't decided on a composer yet.

This does 2 things... it lets them know you are busy... and it sets you apart from the herd... coming in at the last moment may give you better odds.


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 30, 2006)

Thonex @ Wed Aug 30 said:


> kid-surf @ Wed Aug 30 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean by that when you say "might not get to hear your cue" ?
> ...



hehe very interesting Andrew! Something to keep in mind.


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2006)

I know two really heavy weight composers with Acadamy award nominations. They both still spec if the job is big enough. If it's something that they've done a thousand times then one in particular said that he doesn't spec he just refers them to his older score.

If the job is worth it to you spec away. The first gig I ever got I got because I was the one the was willing to spec the theme song.

Jose


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## midphase (Aug 31, 2006)

The bottom line is how appealing the project is to you....monetarily, opportunistically, or simply fun.

Everyone will spec depending on how appealing they want to get the work....even John Williams.

I think John Debney mentioned speccing some cues for Gibson before he got signed on the Passion. Of course keep in mind that someone like John Debney is in a different world financially than most of us. 

If I was financially independent, I would only look for films which appealed to me personally, and if that involved speccing and I wanted the gig bad enough, I would probably go as far as doing an orchestral session if that's what it would take to impress the director.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 31, 2006)

Thonex @ Wed Aug 30 said:


> .... but I'd be happy to submit afterwards that if they haven't decided on a composer yet.
> 
> This does 2 things... it lets them know you are busy... and it sets you apart from the herd... coming in at the last moment may give you better odds.


That's an interesting strategy and I think it has merit. Here's a story along similar lines:

A couple years ago, I had an excellent contact (creator/executive producer) for a TV show. Unfortunately, they'd already hired the composer! But I knew and never respected this other guy's work. Real hack composer IMO.

So I asked my contact if I could submit a theme demo anyway, thinking this other guy is so bad IMO that, maybe, just maybe, I could sway the producers to pick me. He said, well he hates to have someone do a demo for free, and he really likes this other guy, but if I insist, he won't stop me.

So . . . after they got my track, they were impressed enough that they started rethinking the theme, including changing it's overall direction. Unfortunately, now my demo wasn't exactly it anymore. But the good news was: the new competition was just between the two of us!!! :shock: 

I wish I had a happy ending of triumph, but it turns out I still wound up losing, I'm convinced largely for political reasons. But I walked away with the bigger lesson that the later in the process you can get in, the better your odds (which was Andrew's point.) The trouble, of course, is that it's very difficult to gain admission late in the process!

Come to think of it, my very first theme was for a show called "Wavelength." I was doing promos (trailers for TV are called promos) for it's launch and when I heard the existing theme, I hinted to the producers that I was less than impressed and could blow it away if they'd give me a chance. They said, "Give it a shot, Kid," and as luck would have it, I got it!

Maybe that should be my new strategy. Only try for shows where they've already hired someone. Then I'll always be competing with just one person! :mrgreen: 

- Mike Greene


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## Scott Cairns (Aug 31, 2006)

Thonex @ Fri Sep 01 said:


> (who actually really said "love ya babe" :roll: ya gotta love Hollywood )



Haha. Thats really funny. 


I think creative industries in general can be a little weird, I once worked with an audio engineer, long red hair in dreadlocks. At the end of the session, I said; "Nice to meet you Tony." And shook his hand. He looked at me deadpan and said; "Yeah, rock out with your cock out." :shock:


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## Mike Greene (Aug 31, 2006)

Thonex @ Thu Aug 31 said:


> I also was 1 of three guys (from over 70 submissions) for a show (years ago) called Hitz... starring Andrew Dice Clay. Anyway.... Paramount had me come in a few time to talk to the music supervisor... an older guy (who actually really said "love ya babe" :roll: ya gotta love Hollywood ) they loved the theme and were talking about me doing the score too. THen all of a sudden... nothing... can't get them to call me back... nothing.
> 
> It turns out the music supervisor's son did the music for the show... or so I'm told. Poetic justice would prevail and the show got canceled after 6 weeks
> 
> We're in a weird industry.


Indeed!

On this particular show, the final theme sounded a LOT like my final demo, stylistically, just not as well done. And there's no way the other guy came up with the same extra vocal tag I thought of just by coincidence. The night the show first aired, I literally told my wife I had to take a walk, I was so pissed. Inferior, plus an idea was ripped off.

But the same poetic justice prevailed, though. The show only lasted 10 or so weeks. :mrgreen: 

I guess there could be a lesson here that spec demos may very well be nothing more than free temp scores for the producers. Sad.

But the bottom line is that for me, I have two options:
1. Do spec demos
2. Do nothing

Obviously I still get my usual low budget gigs either way, but when I'm trying to "move up," those seem to be my only two options.

- Mike Greene


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 21, 2018)

Any new thoughts?


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## AlexRuger (Nov 10, 2018)

Woah, _this _thread is a blast from the past. kid-surf! A legend!


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