# Fabfilter or Soundtoys 5



## Trancer (Feb 23, 2021)

Hello,

For mixing and plug ins effects in particular Techno / Trance production, better to equip yourself with Fabfilter or Soundtoys 5?

If you have other suggestions, don't hesitate.


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## JonS (Feb 23, 2021)

I have both. It really depends on what your main focus is. If you want to master and finish tracks get FabFilter. If you are looking for cool effects I'd lean toward Soundtoys 5. Other ways to go is with Waves, UAD plugins, Plugin Alliance (especially the SPL plugins for techno!!!), Eventide, iZotope, and Softube. I don't think you will go wrong with any of these, but your personal taste is really uniquely your own, so what someone else loves you may prefer some other developer.


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## Trancer (Feb 23, 2021)

Thanks for your feedback. I suspect that the two are the duo par excellence. Regarding UAD plug-ins, it is starting to get old and it might need to produce interfaces with faster processors that can run many more plug-ins. Otherwise their plug ins are clearly a marvel. plugin alliances, I will deepen the subject, I do not know too much. Softube, is there an interesting bundle?


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## JonS (Feb 23, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Thanks for your feedback. I suspect that the two are the duo par excellence. Regarding UAD plug-ins, it is starting to get old and it might need to produce interfaces with faster processors that can run many more plug-ins. Otherwise their plug ins are clearly a marvel. plugin alliances, I will deepen the subject, I do not know too much. Softube, is there an interesting bundle?


I have Softube's Volume 4 bundle, I think it's very good. There are so many choices when it comes to plugins. When it comes to plugins, there's always sales going on and if there aren't then wait for an end of the year, Black Friday or Xmas sales since it's easy to start spending spending spending, so you want to maximize your value by getting everything you buy on a 50% off or more sales if you can be patient. Sonnox plugins are really good too. Yes, UAD has been around a while, but they are always adding brand new plugins that sound great, and I think IMHO that the UAD plugins are some of the best out there tone wise. Will UAD-3 come out with double processor power? Probably one day when we all least expect it.


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## Trancer (Feb 23, 2021)

Thank you for your reply. I'm going to check out the Sonnox site, thanks for the info. Indeed, waiting for a promo is the wisest thing to do. It's true UAD comes out of plug ins excellence, but, hopefully a UAD 3 really boosts hormones to run several sessions without saturation.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 23, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Thank you for your reply. I'm going to check out the Sonnox site, thanks for the info. Indeed, waiting for a promo is the wisest thing to do. It's true UAD comes out of plug ins excellence, but, hopefully a UAD 3 really boosts hormones to run several sessions without saturation.


Only problem with UAD is you need their PCIe card or audio interface. Plugin Alliance sells native copies of UAD plugins. But always wait for sales. They are constantly having them. 

Also, Valhalla has good plugins that never go on sale but are always $50, so reasonably priced. One of my favorites though is Eventide's Blackhole for big reverb. 

Audiority has XenoVerb and Grainspace. Both good for evolving trance music and they go on sale every so often. 

Basic mixing - your DAW probably comes with decent basics like a compressor/limiter and EQ. Fabfilter are also great but are pricey even sale. And? Waves Gold has everything needed to get started with mixing. Old but still used by the pros. I've seen it on sale for around $100. You can get the best deals on Waves from everyplugin.com. They usually have an extra discount code.


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 23, 2021)

I wouldn't buy any bundles, personally. Why? Because there's better per effect. On the plus side you might "save" money (as long as you don't look around, realize there may be as good or better plugins, and then buy one or more of those, too).

I'm also not sure I'd recommend Fabfilter or not at this point. They're easy to use, which is HUGE, but they aren't necessarily the best sounding, anymore. Soundtoys are old, but most are still good, though most also have competitors now that are as good or better, as well (and often less expensive individually).

General advice: never pay full price for a plugin. There's always a sale, though you may need to be patient.


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## jmauz (Feb 23, 2021)

Both! They're too different to compare and offer different things.


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## jcrosby (Feb 23, 2021)

Very different plugins. Soundtoys are mostly mojo/'color-boxes', Fabfilter do surgical and super-clean very well, but have some are outliers like Saturn, Volcano etc. Overall two completely different beasts.

As far as not excellent sounding? I'm not so sure about that. Virtually every mastering house in the world has Pro-L2 on its shortlist of limiters, and it's the first call limiter of choice for many. Sure some could use an update, but Waves are way worse about hocking the same old dusty code... Unlike Waves FF actually update their algorithms with each new version.


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## typewriter (Feb 24, 2021)

Soundtoys for any creative mixing. It's amazing. They also have tons of tutorials.


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## Dietz (Feb 24, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Soundtoys are old, but most are still good, though most also have competitors now that are as good or better, as well (and often less expensive individually).


In general, "newer" is not necessarily "better" in the plug-in world, but sometimes simply a late "me too".


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## doctoremmet (Feb 24, 2021)

For trance I’d also check Plugin Alliance - especially all things made by Unfiltered Audio. TRIAD, G8, Sandman Pro, SpecOps, Bass-Mint all seem very suited for electronic music and have a very modular setup which is excellent for trance like gated effects,

I’d also absolutely check out Denise Audio. Their Perfect PlateXL is a very creative reverb. And stuff like God Mode and Bad Tape can really add a lot of trancy spice 

Edit: just downloaded Live 11. If you happen to be on Ableton, they have added Hybrid Reverb in Suite and it is beyond brilliant.


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## Solarsentinel (Feb 24, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Hello,
> 
> For mixing and plug ins effects in particular Techno / Trance production, better to equip yourself with Fabfilter or Soundtoys 5?
> 
> If you have other suggestions, don't hesitate.


Like Trancer said, Fabfilter suite is more aimed for mixing and mastering purpose. There are some tools like volcano, timeless and saturn which is more for effect or sound diesign purpose, but Soundtoys is cleary for sound design and effects and you can get crazy with it. So they complemented very well together. It's better to have both.
If you tend to do only mix and master, go with Fabfilter. 

If i have to choose i would make a mix between the two like this ro Q3, pro MB, and pro L2 from Fabfilter (because you will have all the rest on your DAW), and all the suite of Soundtoys. But again depends on your needs.


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## Trancer (Feb 24, 2021)

Thank you for your comments and answers.

I did not know certain products and I have been consulted the different sites and there are some very good, even excellent and for a reasonable price. I also saw the Blackhole, a great reverb too. A mix of Fabfilter and Soundtoys 5, a very coherent alternative it is true. Very nice products also at Unfiltered audio and at Denise, I did not know at all. Valhalla is quite a benchmark too. Maybe take the best of some editors, each certainly their specialty. On the other hand, the Wave products, I do not catch at all. Plugins alliance not bad at all, on the other hand, the ilok not at all a fan.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 24, 2021)

Plugin Alliance does not require iLok now does it? About PA and Unfiltered Audio; always buy them in a sale. They can be had for $29.99 in many instances so their full advertised prices are complete and utter fiction  Also, check the Buy and Sell section.


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## GtrString (Feb 24, 2021)

Untill you can tell the difference between the plugins, and know the specifics of what you need, stick with the plugins in your daw. They will do just fine.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 24, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Thank you for your comments and answers.
> 
> I did not know certain products and I have been consulted the different sites and there are some very good, even excellent and for a reasonable price. I also saw the Blackhole, a great reverb too. A mix of Fabfilter and Soundtoys 5, a very coherent alternative it is true. Very nice products also at Unfiltered audio and at Denise, I did not know at all. Valhalla is quite a benchmark too. Maybe take the best of some editors, each certainly their specialty. On the other hand, the Wave products, I do not catch at all. Plugins alliance not bad at all, on the other hand, the ilok not at all a fan.


Waves and Plugin Alliance don't use iLok. Unfiltered Audio = UAD.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 24, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Unfiltered Audio = UAD


Nope. Unfiltered Audio = Plugin Alliance


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## dzilizzi (Feb 24, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Nope. Unfiltered Audio = Plugin Alliance


Plugin Alliance distributes them. They are the native version of UAD plugins that don't require UAD hardware.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 24, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Plugin Alliance distributes them. They are the native version of UAD plugins that don't require UAD hardware.


Ah ok. I thought Unfiltered Audio were just... Unfiltered Audio? These guys? So maybe UAD are distributors, much like PA?








Unfiltered Audio


Unfiltered Audio, plug-ins, creative effects, AAX, VST, AU, synthesizers, modular, modulation, software, hardware, rack extensions




www.unfilteredaudio.com


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## dzilizzi (Feb 24, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Nope. Unfiltered Audio = Plugin Alliance


Oops, you are correct. I was told a long time ago that Unfiltered Audio is UAD products. But doing more research, I am not so sure. UAD does carry a lot of the same products as Plugin Alliance though. It is interesting to compare the catalogs of both.


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## SyMTiK (Feb 24, 2021)

As others have said, too different to compare. I have both and since getting them, there is not a single project I have worked on that hasn't used both sets of plugins. They are both the best at what they do imo.

Fabfilter plugins are super intuitive and feature packed. They have sped up my mixing process ten fold, especially Pro Q3. The auto detection of problematic resonances for notch EQ'ing makes cleaning up sounds a breeze. And the ability to create every band into a dynamic band is probably my favorite part. You could honestly do an entire mix using only Pro Q3 and one reverb unit of choice in my opinion, it is that capable.

Soundtoy's to me is like spicing your food. They add that extra bit of "pizaz" that takes your track from good to great. The distortion units are great, they can either be very subtle or very aggressive, I use them a lot to add some body to certain sounds in parallel. Especially love them on vocals. I could honestly go on and on about how much I love their plugins to be honest, they have made it very easy to envision a specific sound and create it.


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 24, 2021)

Dietz said:


> In general, "newer" is not necessarily "better" in the plug-in world, but sometimes simply a late "me too".


Disagree. Often it does mean better, or equivalent at the same or better price, too. Tech moves forward.

I’d likely recommend alternatives for consideration to at least most of every Fabfilter or Soundtoys plug-in at this point. That said, I doubt anyone would be sad for owning either. Or both.


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## fakemaxwell (Feb 24, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Disagree. Often it does mean better, or equivalent at the same or better price, too. Tech moves forward.
> 
> I’d likely recommend alternatives for consideration to at least most of every Fabfilter or Soundtoys plug-in at this point. That said, I doubt anyone would be sad for owning either. Or both.


Do you have examples of how the Fabfilter plugins have fallen behind sonically?


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## rgames (Feb 24, 2021)

Note that Waves plugins can't be licensed concurrently on two machines and they no longer use iLok (which makes it super easy to move between machines). So if you use multiple machines, Waves is a pain unless you want to pay for two licenses.

You can transfer the licenses but you have to remember to do that. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten stuck because I just grabbed my iLok and forgot to take the time to manually transfer my Waves plugins....

rgames


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## doctoremmet (Feb 24, 2021)

rgames said:


> Note that Waves plugins can't be licensed concurrently on two machines and they no longer use iLok (which makes it super easy to move between machines). So if you use multiple machines, Waves is a pain unless you want to pay for two licenses.
> 
> You can transfer the licenses but you have to remember to do that. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten stuck because I just grabbed my iLok and forgot to take the time to manually transfer my Waves plugins....
> 
> rgames


Is that why the wavefunction collapsed?


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## Dietz (Feb 24, 2021)

rgames said:


> Note that Waves plugins can't be licensed concurrently on two machines and they no longer use iLok (which makes it super easy to move between machines). So if you use multiple machines, Waves is a pain unless you want to pay for two licenses.
> 
> You can transfer the licenses but you have to remember to do that. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten stuck because I just grabbed my iLok and forgot to take the time to manually transfer my Waves plugins....
> 
> rgames


I have my Waves-licenses on a simple USB-stick. Works like an iLok, actually. Or did I misunderstand the problem?


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## Dietz (Feb 24, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Disagree. Often it does mean better, or equivalent at the same or better price, too. Tech moves forward.


We should agree to disagree, then.  ... you might have a point with "better price" to some extent, as the latecomers often can rely on - by then - tried-and-tested concepts without the hassle (and the costs) that are inherent to their development.


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## Obxa (Feb 24, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Hello,
> 
> For mixing and plug ins effects in particular Techno / Trance production, better to equip yourself with Fabfilter or Soundtoys 5?
> 
> If you have other suggestions, don't hesitate.


I have both, and concur Soundtoys leaning towards special (but essential) effects. To further expand on DoctorEmmett regarding Plugin Alliance: I never would have ever considered a subscription package, but the PA "Mix & Master" thing is a true bargain at $14.95 a month, or even the essentials at 10.00 a month. I already owned a few of their plugs but love getting the new stuff and 100's things I wouldn't of normally tried. They've really upped their game these last two years, and constantly add new plug-ins almost monthly. Worst case you try it for couple of months and you would of spent less than a single plugin. You'll find just about anything you need from an assortment of developers. I'm not affiliated with them, nor compensated, just a happy customer. The Soundtoys stuff goes on deep discount throughout the year, so best to wait for the sales- they also take great care of their customers. Also check some of the smaller companies like Black Rooster Audio, and Fuse have some incredible stuff that's priced great too.


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## Pier (Feb 24, 2021)

Solarsentinel said:


> If i have to choose i would make a mix between the two like this ro Q3, pro MB, and pro L2 from Fabfilter (because you will have all the rest on your DAW), and all the suite of Soundtoys. But again depends on your needs.


If you have Pro Q3 you most likely don't need Pro MB. With the dynamic EQ features you can replicate most of what the multiband processor does with more surgical accuracy.

Edit:

I own most FabFilter products and to me the crown jewels are Pro Q3 and Pro-R. I also use Saturn 2 a lot, specially for it's creative possibilities with envelopes, LFOS, multiple bands, etc.

As mentioned, since I got Q3 I don't use MB anymore.

Volcano and Timeless sound great and all but are super outdated at this point. I'm confident FabFilter will release new versions of those at some point like they did with Saturn.

I like L2 but I'm not a mastering engineer so I can't say if it's any better than Ozone or other plugins. Also, for limiting short transients you can simply use a clipper and there are plenty that are either free or much cheaper than L2 (eg: StandardClip).


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## juliandoe (Feb 24, 2021)

If I really should make a choice like "one or the other" I would say Fab Filter without a doubt. 
But, in reality, my choice is both. You can have the effect rack and the FF Mixing bundle and you have the best of both worlds

if you wanna "pick and choose" the essential I would say
FF: Q3, C2, G, DS, R
ST: Echoboy, Decapitator, Little Micro Shift.

to me with those plugins you can do any mix, regardless of the genre.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 24, 2021)

rgames said:


> Note that Waves plugins can't be licensed concurrently on two machines and they no longer use iLok (which makes it super easy to move between machines). So if you use multiple machines, Waves is a pain unless you want to pay for two licenses.
> 
> You can transfer the licenses but you have to remember to do that. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten stuck because I just grabbed my iLok and forgot to take the time to manually transfer my Waves plugins....
> 
> rgames


I use a USB flash drive for my licenses. I actually have a 4 port hub that has my iLok, my eLicenser and my waves USB flash drive on it. I also have put my Plugin Alliance licenses on the same drive and I think Overloud? I basically use it for all of my non-iLok/eLicenser licenses that aren't locked to a machine. 

And? If you WUP, you get a second free license for another computer as long as your WUP is active. So, after buying, it will be the first year. WUP'ing is generally not worth it except if you are on Apple and regularly update your OS.


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## Trancer (Feb 24, 2021)

Thank you for all your feedback and advice.

So a mix of the two seems to be the best balance and compromise.

Concerning Volcano and Timeless they are both in version two.

Are they outdated anyway?

An equivalent from another publisher?

Whether it is FF and ST 5, it remains apparently the reference and not especially other plug ins as complete or equivalent?


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## Pier (Feb 24, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Concerning Volcano and Timeless they are both in version two.
> 
> Are they outdated anyway?
> 
> An equivalent from another publisher?


Timeless 2 was released in 2009. It's quite outdated in terms of UI compared to other FabFilter plugins.

There are plenty of delays with filters in the market. Depending on what you want to do, even the stock ones in Ableton or Bitwig could work.

The most powerful delay I know is MFM2 by U-He but the UI is also terribly outdated:


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 24, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Do you have examples of how the Fabfilter plugins have fallen behind sonically?


CraveEQ, DMG, MAAT, BigFrEQ and Weiss, etc. Maybe even TDR. Steep boosts/cuts in ProQ3 have been described as "plastic" in comparison.

For visual UI, Fabfilter set the standard many others have copied. But they seem to have dramatically slowed releases and updates, and their plugins are aging. That doesn't make them bad (well, some are REALLY old in comparison), but allows others to catch up and even surpass.

Ultimately, though, I believe the best tools are the one you know how to use the fastest and easiest to get the job done - they stay out of your way and just blend in seamlessly. Sure, overall quality matters, but - especially in this case - it's not like Fabfilter is suddenly junk or anything. Not even close!

I fully admit that ProQ3 is still my go-to surgical EQ. I know it, can use it quickly and easily, and it gets the job done well enough for me. Same with ProL2. However, I never use ProC2 or ProMB. I'd sell them if they weren't part of the bundle. I don't use ProQ3 for everything anymore, though. For example, Slick EQ M has replaced it on the mixbus.

I reiterate again that, if you want the best quality, you buy each plugin separately after careful research, shopping, and comparison/demo. If you want to save money and just get good stuff and focus on other things, a bundle is a solid choice.


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## JohnG (Feb 24, 2021)

Hi there -- suggest you check out Junkie XL's walkthrough videos on FX. He's great and the videos are very specific with recommendations, even settings in some cases. I don't remember the URL for his website but he's easy to find.

Have fun!

John


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## Trancer (Feb 24, 2021)

Thanks for your feedback.

Indeed 2009 not at all recent. The model from U is not great in terms of design either.

There are a plethora of editors and plug ins that are not easy to navigate.

I'll go check it out.


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## rgames (Feb 24, 2021)

Dietz said:


> I have my Waves-licenses on a simple USB-stick. Works like an iLok, actually. Or did I misunderstand the problem?


Yes, but I'm out of USB ports on my laptop and Waves plug-ins aren't compelling enough for a third dongle, anyway.



dzilizzi said:


> And? If you WUP, you get a second free license for another computer as long as your WUP is active. So, after buying, it will be the first year. WUP'ing is generally not worth it except if you are on Apple and regularly update your OS.


Thanks - I wasn't aware that you get a second license if you have active WUP. But I quit paying for WUP years ago...

Waves either needs to use one of the other common dongles or allow a second registration. Waves is the only developer I deal with that doesn't use iLok/eLicenser AND doesn't give a second license. A third dongle is a bridge too far for me 

rgames


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## Dietz (Feb 24, 2021)

rgames said:


> I'm out of USB ports on my laptop


On a laptop, dongles should always reside on a hub anyway, if you ask me. Less risk to break them.


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## rgames (Feb 24, 2021)

Dietz said:


> On a laptop, dongles should always reside on a hub anyway, if you ask me. Less risk to break them.


They do.


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## AudioLoco (Feb 25, 2021)

rgames said:


> Yes, but I'm out of USB ports on my laptop and Waves plug-ins aren't compelling enough for a third dongle, anyway.
> 
> 
> Thanks - I wasn't aware that you get a second license if you have active WUP. But I quit paying for WUP years ago...
> ...


At 29$ a pop, compared to other plugins in a similar quality bracket priced usually at around £100-200 for me the solution was simply.... buying another license. 
At least for those 4-5 plugins I can't do without because they are great and have been a part of my workflow for ages....
Not saying it's a perfect solution, but works for me and is kind of sensible on a financial level as those plugins are so cheap. Would prefer iLok for everything obviously!
(I think all new purchases have a second license for the first year, which expires unless you WUP)


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## Petrucci (Feb 25, 2021)

From Fabfilter Pro-L2 and Pro-Q3 are essential. From Soundtoys - just pick an effect you need, they are all awesome and mostly are special FX and mojo-colour boxes. Speaking about UAD - their catalogue mostly consists of their own exclusive plugins not available anywhere and some third-party ones available else where, the focus being mostly emulating real hardware, and those exclusive ones are really good.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 25, 2021)

Dietz said:


> We should agree to disagree, then.  ... you might have a point with "better price" to some extent, as the latecomers often can rely on - by then - tried-and-tested concepts without the hassle (and the costs) that are inherent to their development.


I wouldn't try to justify it... The older one also has proportionally more years of stability and probably updates anyways lol. 

Plus, the more something is used the more expected sound it is, thus more sought after. How many metal albums try to sound like a tube screamer going 5150, marshall 1960 cab with greenbacks and a sm57.


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## fourier (Feb 25, 2021)

I have both Soundtoys and Fabfilter, but for trance/techno I'd say to you might get more mileage out of Soundtoys to create the sound you're looking for, while you can get far with the DAW's native plugins (at least for Ableton) for mixing/mastering.

What Fabfilter gives you - imo - is an impressive GUI that let's you see how you're manipulating the sound, and an ease of use, but you can still do this with other, less expensive tools. I think Fabfilter has a 30 days trial period, so I'd recommend trying it out and get a feel for them.


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## Trancer (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks for your feedback.

If I understand

For effects and sounds design, rather Soundtoys.

For mixing and mastering rather Fabfilter.


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## fakemaxwell (Feb 25, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> CraveEQ, DMG, MAAT, BigFrEQ and Weiss, etc. Maybe even TDR. Steep boosts/cuts in ProQ3 have been described as "plastic" in comparison.


A list of plugins and an adjective is not really showing how Fabfilter now sounds worse now, is it? What do you mean by "aging"? Pro Q 3 came out at the end of 2018, how often does a working EQ plugin need to be updated to not be considered "out of date"? They just updated all of their plugins to run on Apple Silicon, and Saturn 2 was released middle of 2020.

Not saying you can't get good results with other plugins, most people are probably fine with DAW stuff anyway. I'm not buying the reasoning here, though.

To answer the question though, I don't really see a ton of overlap between Fabfilter and Soundtoys. Soundtoys doesn't have a traditional EQ, compressor, or limiter, but they have a lot of weird "creative" plugins to play around with. Kind of like asking what screwdriver you should use to hammer nails....just use the hammer!


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## Pier (Feb 25, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> If I understand
> 
> ...


Yeah, but Saturn 2 is great for sound design and creative stuff too!


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 25, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> A list of plugins and an adjective is not really showing how Fabfilter now sounds worse now, is it? What do you mean by "aging"? Pro Q 3 came out at the end of 2018, how often does a working EQ plugin need to be updated to not be considered "out of date"? They just updated all of their plugins to run on Apple Silicon, and Saturn 2 was released middle of 2020.
> 
> Not saying you can't get good results with other plugins, most people are probably fine with DAW stuff anyway. I'm not buying the reasoning here, though.
> 
> To answer the question though, I don't really see a ton of overlap between Fabfilter and Soundtoys. Soundtoys doesn't have a traditional EQ, compressor, or limiter, but they have a lot of weird "creative" plugins to play around with. Kind of like asking what screwdriver you should use to hammer nails....just use the hammer!


You don't have to buy anything. Do your own homework. Or don't.


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## R. Soul (Feb 25, 2021)

Fabfilter is awesome, but pricey. The nice thing about them is that once you have a few of their plugins, the remaining ones can be bought at 40% discount.

But for pure creative madness I love the Soundtoys FX rack. 
Embray's design makes a great preset pack for the FX rack, that brings your dull sounds to 'radio ready'. Easily my favority multi-fx plugin.


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## Trancer (Feb 25, 2021)

Thank you for your answers.

Fabfilter and Soundtoys seems to be the best of both Fx and mastering worlds reading you.

Mixing the two seems obvious.

Even if from the start very tempted by Soundtoys.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 26, 2021)

In case you want to grab TRIAD (brilliant multiband multi fix plug-in) by Unfiltered Audio. It’s 29.99 right now - which is a steal.



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/plugin-alliance-leap-year-sale.106280/


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## peladio (Feb 26, 2021)

Dietz said:


> In general, "newer" is not necessarily "better" in the plug-in world, but sometimes simply a late "me too".


True 100%..

When you watch Mix with the Masters videos top mixers almost always use old Waves, UAD or stock plugins..there isn't usually any flavor of the month plugins in sight..

Derek Ali's project window from Kendrick Lamar's To pimp a butterfly mix..







Fancy GUI doesn't produce sound..


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Feb 26, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Oops, you are correct. I was told a long time ago that Unfiltered Audio is UAD products. But doing more research, I am not so sure. UAD does carry a lot of the same products as Plugin Alliance though. It is interesting to compare the catalogs of both.


Facepalm moment there mate 

I think the main ones that UAD sell that PA offer are the bx ones. Because Brainworx work on a lot of the modelling of the UAD plugins. I remember reading that a while back


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Feb 26, 2021)

I have the MEGA BUNDLE from PA, The SoundToys bundle and also plenty from Waves. I own Pro Q3 and Pro R from fabfilter. I am a huge fan of the Fabfilter plugins... they are very good. But I like both them and SoundToys! As people have said, it is about use-case. As a guitarist I love to mangle and mess around with designing sounds, hence the purchasing of SoundToys. I also do recordings for the concerts for our Church, hence the Fabfilter precision tools and PA Bundle.

Back in 2013 I purchased Waves Gold too, but careful there, Waves is a slippery slope once you purchase a single bundle  Or it was for me anyway...


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Feb 26, 2021)

Just to add Audio Damage are another company for the effects and processing too!
Tom Holkenborg aka Junkie XL introduced me to them 





__





Audio Damage


VST / VST3 / AU / AUv3 / AAX software for the creative musician, for Windows, macOS, and iOS.



www.audiodamage.com


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## dzilizzi (Feb 26, 2021)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Facepalm moment there mate
> 
> I think the main ones that UAD sell that PA offer are the bx ones. Because Brainworx work on a lot of the modelling of the UAD plugins. I remember reading that a while back


Actually, if you compare, a lot of PA's offerings are also available in UAD versions. But probably because they are all emulations of hardware effects. I'd say most, but PA has started carrying synths also. 🙂


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## fourier (Feb 26, 2021)

peladio said:


> True 100%..
> 
> When you watch Mix with the Masters videos top mixers almost always use old Waves, UAD or stock plugins..there isn't usually any flavor of the month plugins in sight..
> 
> ...


This was part of my point in terms of Fabfilter GUI. I've used a lot of Waves plugins in collaboration with others on trance/house music (albeit long time ago, but the Mercury package is surely still relevant), but imo you should know full well what it is that you're doing when using many of them. That threshold is lower with Fabfilter due to being more intuitive with easy visual clues. If you're experienced, are comfortable with your monitors/headset and know what you're aiming to achieve with your chain of plugins, then there are a vast amount of great plugins for mixing and mastering. This was also why I hinted to Soundtoys giving you more "mileage" when you want to create exciting pads/arps/leads/fx/vocals for EDM production. But again, it's imo.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Feb 26, 2021)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Just to add Audio Damage are another company for the effects and processing too!
> Tom Holkenborg aka Junkie XL introduced me to them
> 
> 
> ...


Two side notes on Audio Damage

1) Chris Randall of Audio Damage was the lead singer / musician in one of my favorite bands from the 90s: Sister Machine Gun. In fact, the album [R]evolution is still a great listen - the others are aging more clearly.

2) The other great thing Audio Damage has been doing for years is charging 1/10th on iOS what they charge on the PC/Mac. Who knows if that'll continue with what Apple is doing with the Mac running iOS apps... probably make the prices go up.

3) Audio Damage is 2 people. They can take awhile to fix things, and sometimes things languish for a long time as they have to focus on new things to keep the money flowing.


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## josephspirits (Feb 26, 2021)

Keep an eye out of Soundtoys sales throughout the year and then around the Holidays if you own one or two you'll be able to upgrade to the bundle for a cheaper price.

Fabfilter Pro-Q3 is worth the investment for sure.

Also, keep an eye on Black Rooster Audio. They had a lot of great bundle sales this past year and I've been very happy with what they have added to my toolkit, especially the compressors.


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 26, 2021)

These two don't have quite as slick of a UI, which really can make a difference - but how much depends on the person and situation. There's more than this, but these are prob some of the contenders:

As good or better EQ (does not have compression built in like ProQ3) for less money: https://cravedsp.com/crave-eq

Equivalent of an EQ (does have compression) for a less money - there's even a free version: https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-nova-ge/

As good of an EQ (does not have compression) for comparative cash: https://www.dmgaudio.com/products_equilibrium.php

Analog style wild card that is decidedly not as friendly to use, but can yield very hardware/great results (does not have compression) for about the same price... uglier, but impressive sound, and actually maybe easier to use for people used to hardware: https://www.empiricallabs.com/product/big-freq/

(softube just put out a less graphical version of Little Freq)

On my mixbus, ProQ3 has been replaced by: https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-slickeq-m/

I won't find links, and am doing the following off the top of my head

Echoboy: Valhalla Delay is as good or better in most use cases but not all (and the opposite is true, in that Echoboy can't do all that Delay can) and it's only $50, Replika XT is still an excellent, first-class general purpose delay

Decapitator: SO many better sounding alternatives (to me) - also that don't alias as much... I've landed primarily on Blue Cats Destructor

Little Plate: Transatlantic blows it away, and the newer Arturia and Black Rooster are also fantastic

Crystallizer: there's a few out there, like the one from Eventide I've not used - I just use Valhalla Delay

... well, I ran out of time so have to cut it there. It at least gets the point across that there ARE alternatives out there that are as good or better if one is open to it - and has the time and money and patience to make it work for them.


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## Trancer (Feb 26, 2021)

Thank you very much for your answers and feedback.

The right pair apparently Fabfilter and Soundtoys.

Thanks for all these references, I'll go check it out.


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## Trancer (Feb 26, 2021)

Regarding the Tokyodawn, are they not in fact greedy in cpu?

Softube makes a beautiful pack with two very good plug ins, including one inspired by the excellent Distressor.

Valhalla, it's true, it makes plug-ins at a more than reasonable price and with a very good rendering.

There are of course the Uad products, but, lagging behind with their aging processor and therefore limiting the effective use of their plug-ins which are of excellent quality.

Perhaps a version 3 boosts hormones, being able to operate a multitude of plug-ins without being quickly saturated.


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## olsontex (Feb 27, 2021)

accidentally posted before finished...


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## kgdrum (Feb 27, 2021)

Pier said:


> Timeless 2 was released in 2009. It's quite outdated in terms of UI compared to other FabFilter plugins.
> 
> There are plenty of delays with filters in the market. Depending on what you want to do, even the stock ones in Ableton or Bitwig could work.
> 
> The most powerful delay I know is MFM2 by U-He but the UI is also terribly outdated:



I commend anyone that can really understand how to use MFM2 effectively it was the first product from U-he that I ever noticed or wanted,it’s the only U-he product that leaves me totally bewildered. 😳


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## olsontex (Feb 27, 2021)

So many great points and interesting "bold statements" in this thread. While the OP asked the question in the context of Trance/Techno, I think a large majority of the comments can be applied to just about any form of music. I imagine pretty much all of us have fallen into the trap of building up a large collection of plugins and have some level of remorse over the "spend" and in some cases the specific brand we selected on our more expensive purchases. I absolved myself of that sin a long time ago and have no regrets about those purchase decisions. I encourage you to do the same. How can you have an informed opinion about what "sounds good" or "is a handy tool" without contrasting perspective? The trial and error is an important part of the process of developing techniques and a workflow that will pay dividends in the future. You wouldn't have that perspective without trying out different options.

So why did I just write that last paragraph? Isn't this thread about Fabfilter vs. Soundtoys?

Is it?

I'm going to comment on the specific question in this message but will also add a second response to try and address what I think is the bigger question.

The "sweet spot" of these two companies are quite different. They complement each other more than one vs. the other. Sure, Soundtoys has EQ/Comp type plugins but nothing even close to the sophistication level of Fabfilter. Sure Fabfilter has Saturation/Reverb type plugins but no where near the diversity and uniqueness of Soundtoys. What they have in common is dependable sonic quality and ease of use. I'm not a fan of bundles/subscriptions as I agree with earlier posters who recommend cherry picking the best from each product line.

Posters in this thread have also pointed out several other companies that should be viewed on the same level as ST and FF. They also bring a distinct set of characteristics that set them apart:

Plugin Alliance - deliver excellent results with a small footprint and low CPU usage, moderate learning curve, possibly the best cost/value ratio available if you buy with discipline (i.e. sales)
Acustica Audio - among the best sounding EQ/Comp available, realistic analog emulations, but the drawbacks of high CPU usage, more challenging learning curve, not geared for precision work
Sonnox and Softube - similar to Acustica but with lower CPU usage
Valhalla - specialize in a narrow band of tools and do it as well or better than anyone else
Eventide - similar to Valhalla but a bit more expensive, wider range of products, and a long experience base in the hardware world
Izotope - probably the easiest mixing and mastering tools to use, quality is excellent, often offer shockingly good sales promotions
Waves - take a beating in the user community but still have many useful plugins, low price and fairly easy to learn/use, probably not fair to put their quality on the same level as most of the others in this list but equally unfair to write them off as a "has been"
Celemony, DMG, Leapwing, Liquidsonics, Matthew Lane, Oaksound, Quiet Art, Soundtheory, Synchro Arts - more limited range of products but offer at least one that belongs on best-in-class lists
Kazrog, Kush, PSP, Relab, Sonnible, TBPro Audio - maybe not best-in-class but just a fraction behind the leaders, I regularly use their products and highly recommend them
UAD, Zynaptiq - I haven't used, I would never recommend something I haven't tried but I didn't think it would be fair to leave them out altogether as they are considered in the same class as those on my list

If you are solely concentrating on Trance/Techno, some on the list will not apply - even if they are best-in-class. For everyone else, all of these companies offer usefulness.

If I were you I wouldn't lock in on one company. In a void of ST and FF, you can't go wrong with FF Pro-Q3, Pro-C2, Pro-L2 and ST EchoBoy, Decapitator, Crystalizer, Devil-Loc, Microshift, and Little AlterBoy. Notably absent from this shortlist is Reverb as multiple alternatives on my list offer something better.


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## AudioLoco (Feb 27, 2021)

My suggestion is not to go for brand/company, but for specific plugins for specific tasks.
Like you would do with sample libraries. Use the solo trumpet from one library, the staccato cellos from another one etc etc.... pick and choose what you like and suits your taste and workflow from each offering.

Specific tasks plugin categories could be:

Character EQ (After a while using them you get to know the strenghs of certain plugins by frequency bands... 80HZ boost sounds great on a certain plugin, 10k boost sounds great with another etc...), Clean precision EQ, Clean Compression, Character compression, Limiting, Distortion, Saturation, Natural Reverb for space emulation (usually convolution), Character reverb, Delays, modulation, utility plugins, amp emulation etc etc etc etc....

From the two companies mentioned I couldn't live without:
FabfilterProQ3, FabflilterProL2
Soundtoys Decapitator, Devil Loc Deluxe, EchoBoy


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## olsontex (Feb 27, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> My suggestion is not to go for brand/company, but for specific plugins for specific tasks.
> Like you would do with sample libraries. Use the solo trumpet from one library, the staccato cellos from another one etc etc.... pick and choose what you like and suits your taste and workflow from each offering.
> 
> Specific tasks plugin categories could be:
> ...


What I was trying to say... except more succinctly!


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## Alchemedia (Feb 27, 2021)

peladio said:


> True 100%..
> 
> When you watch Mix with the Masters videos top mixers almost always use old Waves, UAD or stock plugins..there isn't usually any flavor of the month plugins in sight..
> 
> ...








Airwindows | handsewn bespoke digital audio







www.airwindows.com


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## Trancer (Feb 27, 2021)

A very big thank you to you.

Very big thank you also to Olsontex for your very comprehensive message.

I have an idea from your opinion for the compressor, eq, delay, but what choice for the reverb other than with FF?

Concerns a trance gate and arp / seq, do you have any favorite plug-ins?

For a phaser and chorus, which effective plugins?


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## kgdrum (Feb 27, 2021)

Trancer said:


> A very big thank you to you.
> 
> Very big thank you also to Olsontex for your very comprehensive message.
> 
> ...


For a reverb how about Valhalla VIntage Verb


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## olsontex (Feb 27, 2021)

Part II - The bigger question of how to lock in on a tighter and more manageable set of high quality plugins without spending a fortune. Warning - this will include math.

Apologies to the OP if I'm reading too much into the question or juxtaposing my own current circumstances, but I'm seeing a different question: "I want to scale back my primary daily-use plugins to a more manageable set of options and I want to make sure I'm using the best tools available. Which brand or plugins should I choose?"

The obvious... if you've been at this for at least 2-6 months
1) Don't get sucked into the pattern of buying plugins you think you "might need" just because there is a great sale. I can't think of another industry with a more frequent or higher discount rate than the plugin industry. You haven't missed anything if you pass on a deal, it will come back around.
2) Do not commit big $ to bundles and subscriptions. You will feel committed to them in order to recoup your investment... even if it becomes painfully aware there are better options. You already own the best bundle available for the early stages of this journey... the stock plugins that came with your DAW.
3) Do not get mesmerized with pretty graphics. Sometimes (not always) they are compensating for a lack of substance under the hood. If you look at the list of plugins commonly referenced as best-in-class, they often don't look special on the surface.

Aspects that require a bit more discernment, willpower, and understanding
1) When you see certain plugins mentioned positively on a consistent basis, don't fight it. It reflects statistical significance and is the only thing approaching consensus you will find. I'm a statistics geek so let me be more specific and attempt to quantify a rule of thumb: 

if error (p-value) < 1 - confidence level (alpha), and null hypothesis isn't present in the sample pop
then you have a significantly large enough sample pool to guide a decision without a deal breaker

Huh? Plain English please.

Scenario: If I spend over $100 on a plugin, I want to be 90% sure that I bought the best in class option. CPU load is a concern so I don't want any plugin that peaks over 20% CPU usage.

You're sample size must be 10 or more reviews/comments and 9 of them must be highly positive in order to reach a 90% confidence level. None of them can mention struggles with a 20% of CPU usage, even if the rest of the comment is positive.

2) Recognize the aspects of the plugins you are currently using that you like and the aspects that are driving you crazy. These are often subtle/minor but result in a cumulative impact that is either adding or detracting from your process. Target plugins that are congruent with these findings. Here's a short list of pitfall examples:
- ease of use (should be obvious but sometimes we're so drawn to rumors of "magic" that we ignore our capabilities - example - if you don't know how to use an analog style compressor, don't think you're going to buy an Acustica Audio plugin and master it in an hour)
- CPU drain (second only to latency in terms of "big picture" annoyance)
- can't resize GUI or layout is tedious, controls aren't logical
- lacks features like MS capability or gain matching

Yes, the resulting sound is important but not at the expense of adding on to what's currently holding you back.

A few other considerations.
1) How often are the products updated (if at all)? Aside from receiving the benefit of incremental improvements, it's also a good sign of the commitment of the maker to an excellent product.
2) Repeat after me... old doesn't equal bad and new doesn't equal good. If I had to make a list of my top 20 plugins, I doubt more than 5 we're released in the past 12 months. Most were updated though.
3) Pay close attention to what top professional producers are using, because for the most part they can get their hands on whatever they need. You'll notice they all use hardware as a starting point but I can't think of any who don't incorporate plugins too. Given the stakes of their work and reputation, do you think they'd be using XYZ by Waves if it couldn't get the job done with excellent results?

Conclusion
Go through the trial and error period we all experience with a reasonable number of commercial plugins. At a certain point you'll gain enough product knowledge to be dangerous. Then research products available in the specific categories you need (because now you know what you need) and build short wish lists. In a some cases, you're #3 ranked product will be just as good as your #1 so avoid tunnel vision. Wait for sales and systematically fill in the gaps. Don't feel bad about what you previously purchased. I can't think of a single plugin that I'd put in the "One plugin to rule them all" category so there's a good chance you'll still find some uses for your early purchases.


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## Trancer (Feb 27, 2021)

I sincerely thank you Olsontex for this very interesting, informative, wise, lucid and very clear report.

It is really that by starting not easy to find oneself there and influenced by chimeras.

Thank you very much for your feedback.

It is clear that on FF and Soundtoys, some home plug ins, no errors or disappointments possible.

An example of pragmatism and efficiency, with a minimalist set, this is a dj that I particularly appreciate.

Boris Brejcha

Here are two links which states its material.


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## AudioLoco (Feb 27, 2021)

Trancer said:


> what choice for the reverb other than with FF?
> 
> For a phaser and chorus, which effective plugins?


Reverb: R4, Seventh Heaven, Lexicon PCM, PSP2445, Little Plate, UAD140
Chorus: Bluecat's Chorus, Valhalla Ubermod
Phaser: PhaseMistress, and.... erm... don't use much phasing actually  

Excalibur: does any modulation really well. Discovered it not long ago. Really excellent.

Then there are many other cool modulation/chorus combination ("modulation" in general is basically modulated delay/combination of modulated delays so it can come in so many forms)
I really like Microshift, Doubler and... really like guitar pedals for that actually. 
There are some really cheap fun and smooth analog pedals (Danelectro for example) if you are really into modulation stuff, but that's another story...


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## Trancer (Feb 27, 2021)

Thank you for your answer 😊


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## fourier (Feb 27, 2021)

Don't think I need to chime in with more here, but Sam Smyers released a very easy-to-follow walkthrough of some features of Saturn 2 - .

I doubt it's underrated by those of us using it, but it seems to be more of an afterthought when people line up their favorite FF's.


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## olsontex (Feb 27, 2021)

Trancer said:


> A very big thank you to you.
> 
> Very big thank you also to Olsontex for your very comprehensive message.
> 
> ...


Trancer,

Reverb is a good example of a category where I don't think there is a clear cut top product. I'm currently using 5-6 different reverbs on a regular basis, one of which I just got last week. 

Here's my current active reverb list (in no particular order):

Relab Development - Sonig Rev-A
Sonible - Smart:Verb
PSP - 2445 EMT
EastWest - Spaces II
Eventide - ShimmerVerb
LiquidSonics - 7th Heaven (this is my latest, so still forming an opinion)

I tend to gravitate more towards convolution reverbs so my preferences might not be ideal for Techno (for the exception of ShimmerVerb and maybe Sonig Rev-A). Another one I have but haven't used much yet, but might be good for Trance, is XenoVerb by Audiority. I suspect you might find some good options in the Eventide and Valhalla product lines that would be suitable. When I inevitably buy another reverb it will most likely be from Valhalla. 

I want to point out that Valhalla has 3 of best free plugins available regardless of category:

Freq Echo (reverb)
Supermassive (delay)
Space Modulator (flanger)

At the very least these will give you a good sense of what to expect from their $ plugins.

For modulation (chorus, flanger, phaser) I primarily use:

Eventide - TriceraChorus
Psychic Modulation - Vectomelt
Auditority - Tube Modulator
Nembrini Audio - Phazevibe

I'm afraid I'm a bit out of my depth in terms of a trance gate and arp/seq. A few years ago I attempted to write and record a techno song just to see if I could, and I remember using a free product called TriggerGate from A1 Audio. It worked effectively and certainly wasn't the reason my final result sounded like an outtake from a bad Erasure recording session. I'm sure someone else on the board could give you a much more informed recommendation in this area.

You didn't ask about limiters but I want to point out that this is a somewhat unique category. There are 4-5 products that I consider at the top of the heap but they can be very genre specific (in terms of which one will work best). I primarily use Fabfilter and Izotope but not sure if they are best for Trance. For full transparency, I own and use everything on list below except for Weiss DS1-MK3, but it is at the top of list for future purchases (hate breaking my rule of don't recommend something you don't own but my confidence level is extremely high regarding the quality - I have seen and heard it used in someone else's studio if that counts!).

Here's the list:

Fabfilter - Pro-L2
DMG - Limitless
Izotope - Ozone
Softube - Weiss DS1-MK3
Sonnox - Oxford Limiter

One final recommendation that I'd loosely put in the limiter/compression category: Oxford Inflator from Sonnox. I use it quite literally on every song. I think its ability to increase perceived loudness would also translate quite well for Trance/Techno. I'm bringing it up because it's currently on sale for $39 (regularly $156) on Pluginboutique.









Oxford Inflator


Oxford Inflator, Oxford Inflator plugin, buy Oxford Inflator, download Oxford Inflator trial, Sonnox Oxford Inflator




www.pluginboutique.com


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## kgdrum (Feb 27, 2021)

i think people are making this way to complicated,if the OP is doing Trance Electronica etc....He's not doing movie scores or classical mockups. To get started as far as a reverb and delay goes imo he needs a flexible non-convolution based reverb and a flexible delay that's why something like VVV and Vdelay in my opinion would be a great way to go.He can also pick up Super Massive also from Valhalla for free so for $100 he'd be covered for both reverb and delay.You can always add later but this would be a great way to get started.


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## olsontex (Feb 27, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> i think people are making this way to complicated,if the OP is doing Trance Electronica etc....He's not doing movie scores or classical mockups. To get started as far as a reverb and delay goes imo he needs a flexible non-convolution based reverb and a flexible delay that's why something like VVV and Vdelay in my opinion would be a great way to go.He can also pick up Super Massive also from Valhalla for free so for $100 he'd be covered for both reverb and delay.You can always add later but this would be a great way to get started.


Agree with your recommendations but think you might be missing the point on why some people take the time to post. It's important to address the point/question of the OP but some of us also recognize a lot of people read message boards for information without posting. I rarely post but when I do, I try to write something that could potentially help a wider audience. I also think a mix without depth, movement, and good dynamics will fall flat on its face regardless of effects, no matter the genre. If the intent of a board like this is to try and help others on the way, I don't see the harm in introducing a few more things to consider.


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## Trancer (Feb 27, 2021)

Thanks again for your feedback.

Valhalla not bad indeed.

Thank you for this excellent new Olsontex review😊

At Eventide there is also the Blackhole which seems to be a good product.


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## Trancer (Feb 27, 2021)

Regarding softube, he has just made a plug-in that seems very promising, inspired by the famous and cult Distressor with the Nuke option.


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## kgdrum (Feb 27, 2021)

olsontex said:


> Agree with your recommendations but think you might be missing the point on why some people take the time to post. It's important to address the point/question of the OP but some of us also recognize a lot of people read message boards for information without posting. I rarely post but when I do, I try to write something that could potentially help a wider audience. I also think a mix without depth, movement, and good dynamics will fall flat on its face regardless of effects, no matter the genre. If the intent of a board like this is to try and help others on the way, I don't see the harm in introducing a few more things to consider.


i understand what you're saying but to address the OP directly and i'm only mentioning reverb and delay, at this moment but everyone naming several of their favorie reverbs and delays,compressors,saturators is muddying the water.
I probably have 20 delays and at least 20 reverbs I'm not going to mention.For example I have all of the Liquidsonic products,they are wonderful but imo recommeding reverbs like this for someone trying to get started with the music the OP wants to create is not addressing his needs & doing is a waste of time and not helpful.I probably 100 plugins from UAD but again for what he's doing and asking how is my UAD collection relevent?I have all of the Soundtoys line but much of it will be overkill,same applies for Eventide I have most of their products.I'm not going to suggest 30+ plugins.
He is asking a question and for everyone to pile on their personal favorites by the dozen whether they are appropiate or not is not going to help the OP.
IMO everyone naming their top 10 reverbs, top 10 delays top 10 compressors is not appropiate & is pointless. The OP didn't start a thread asking people to list their top 10 effects of every type.
IMO if someone asks a question the most helpful way to address the question is to address the OP not the entire internet.

i don't think I'm the person missing the point.


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## bill5 (Feb 27, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Only problem with UAD is you need their PCIe card or audio interface.


? Pretty sure that's not true. In fact, I've yet to come across any plugin that required a specific interface.




GtrString said:


> Untill you can tell the difference between the plugins, and know the specifics of what you need, stick with the plugins in your daw. They will do just fine.


Another idea is try the freebies. There are a LOT of REALLY good free plugins out there now. Don't fall into the "you get what you pay for" trap, because that's all it is. Voxengo's Oldskool reverb, Valhalla's Supermassive reverb, and TDR's Nova EQ are all excellent, for example.


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## bill5 (Feb 27, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> i think people are making this way to complicated,if the OP is doing Trance Electronica etc....He's not doing movie scores or classical mockups.


BINGO...I was thinking the same throughout this thread, but thought if I said the same someone would get in a snit. IMO Fabfilter and the like are serious overkill.


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## kgdrum (Feb 27, 2021)

bill5 said:


> ? Pretty sure that's not true. In fact, I've yet to come across any plugin that required a specific interface.
> 
> 
> 
> Another idea is try the freebies. There are a LOT of REALLY good free plugins out there now. Don't fall into the "you get what you pay for" trap, because that's all it is. Voxengo's Oldskool reverb, Valhalla's Supermassive reverb, and TDR's Nova EQ are all excellent, for example.


As a long time UAD user I can confirm Lizzie is correct you need either one of their cards or a UA interface.


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## bill5 (Feb 27, 2021)

OK, wow, a first for me. How bizarre. What a ridiculous requirement!


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## Trancer (Feb 27, 2021)

Thanks for your feedback.

It is certain that there are also nuggets in plug ins less expensive than among tenors and perhaps little equivalent.

Too bad Uad is lagging behind and is resting on his laurels.

Their interface is starting to date seriously.

If you have to invest 4000 euros to make their vst work reasonably, that's nonsense.

For 4000 euros you have a fully boosted pc


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## dzilizzi (Feb 27, 2021)

Trancer said:


> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> It is certain that there are also nuggets in plug ins less expensive than among tenors and perhaps little equivalent.
> 
> ...


The Apollo is actually reasonably priced for how good it is. If you have a Mac with the thunderbolt version, it has really low latency. The RME Babyface is it's main competition and is priced similarly, but doesn't come with the ability to run plugins. With the Apollo, you also get a nice set of basic plugins with it. 

Unless you are running a studio, I wouldn't bother with the expensive UAD systems. The price isn't really worth what you would get out of it.


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## olvra (Feb 28, 2021)

bill5 said:


> OK, wow, a first for me. How bizarre. What a ridiculous requirement!


it's not a "requirement", it's how it works

do a bit of googling, please


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## jbuhler (Feb 28, 2021)

bill5 said:


> OK, wow, a first for me. How bizarre. What a ridiculous requirement!


It’s not a ridiculous requirement. The processing of these plugins is offloaded from the computer to the card or interface, freeing up cpu on the computer, and as I understand it giving lower latency. You might not need that yourself, but it’s hardly ridiculous.


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## fourier (Feb 28, 2021)

bill5 said:


> BINGO...I was thinking the same throughout this thread, but thought if I said the same someone would get in a snit. IMO Fabfilter and the like are serious overkill.


I agree with this statement if you're saying that going for FF is an overkill if you're new to making Trance/Electronica - but if you think FF is an overkill for professionals creating this type of music, you're quite wrong.

Again; FF offers a 30 day trial period during the pandemic, it's a great chance to properly try out some high-end plug-ins.


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## Trancer (Feb 28, 2021)

Regarding UAD, how many plug-ins instances can be opened and operated simultaneously with, for example, the Apollo X 8, which costs more than 3000 euros?

Is it possible to run ten instances of plug-ins simultaneously?

Because 3000 euros a large sum and the price of an excellent pc.

I have absolutely nothing against UAD, on the other hand, an evolution seems more than necessary of their products.


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## Trancer (Feb 28, 2021)

FF make products of excellence and indeed, if so many people (professionals and others) use FF products, there is a reason for that.

On the other hand, there are also other effects plug-ins that are just as interesting and functional, but certainly less well-known.


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## bill5 (Feb 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> It’s not a ridiculous requirement. The processing of these plugins is offloaded from the computer to the card or interface, freeing up cpu on the computer, and as I understand it giving lower latency. You might not need that yourself, but it’s hardly ridiculous.


I don't think you understood my point. It's ridiculous to require a *UAD* interface vs any general interface.


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## jbuhler (Feb 28, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I don't think you understood my point. It's ridiculous to require a *UAD* interface vs any general interface.


A general interface doesn’t have the processor to run the plugin and the plugins are programmed to run on the processor. I mean there are all sorts of reason one might want to avoid being locked into that ecosystem, but it’s not ridiculous, and it offers functionality not otherwise available.


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## bill5 (Feb 28, 2021)

olvra said:


> it's not a "requirement", it's how it works
> 
> do a bit of googling, please


I give up, what are you talking about? A UAD interface is, apparently, required for their plugins. That would make it a "requirement."


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## kgdrum (Feb 28, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I don't think you understood my point. It's ridiculous to require a *UAD* interface vs any general interface.


@bill5

What you’re failing to understand UA embeds the cards and interfaces with sharc chips that process the audio,this is part of the architecture of everything they create.
Back in the day it took an enormous strain off computers that couldn’t handle the heavy lifting that UA’s plug-ins required.
Today with more powerful computers the necessity of this method is debatable but they already charted their course. Besides having some of the best plugins in the marketplace their interfaces are designed to give users 0 latency or very close to 0 latency so for example a guitarist or vocalist can perform with the chosen plugin chain in real time.
Is it absolutely necessary for some people yes for others no but they are a great company who have created their own path.
Some users like myself have been with them for many years,I started with UAD1 cards,while I really don’t buy much from them anymore the plugins are some of the absolute best I have and considering I already have 90+ plugins from them and 2 cards I will use them gladly.
Instead of making these blanket assumptions in multiple posts it might be a good idea if you actually used google,learned and understood UA’s approach and understood why so many *actual UA users love them.*


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Feb 28, 2021)

I have a couple of FF plugins (reverb and saturation). They are good but not my favorites. I could easily give them up and not miss them.

I might be in the minority here, but I quite like the Soundtoys bundle, especially if you don’t have a lot of plugins and can get it on sale. I don’t use all of them, but it’s a pretty cool toolkit and a lot of the presets sound really good. Things like PanMan I use in literally every track. The saturation plugins and delay are great as well.

The FF plugins are more clean/professional, but I think the Soundtoys stuff is colorful in a rude kind of way. If I had to choose I’d go with the Soundtoys stuff over FF for electronic stuff. Just my opinion and personal taste though. I find them fun to work with, which is also important.
I love the Valhalla reverbs but for some reason I don’t like the delay as much.


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## Jamie Hunter (Mar 1, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> I have a couple of FF plugins (reverb and saturation). They are good but not my favorites. I could easily give them up and not miss them.
> 
> I might be in the minority here, but I quite like the Soundtoys bundle, especially if you don’t have a lot of plugins and can get it on sale. I don’t use all of them, but it’s a pretty cool toolkit and a lot of the presets sound really good. Things like PanMan I use in literally every track. The saturation plugins and delay are great as well.
> 
> ...


FF is regarded as one of the best plugin companies by a lot of people and are used by the pros, if you google "The Best" plugins FF are always top of the list. They are expensive but you pay for quality. Soundtoys are the same so its down to preference. I use both in every mix, FF for bread and butter FXs, compression, EQ, saturation. Soundtoys for creativity, bringing color and character.


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## Trancer (Mar 1, 2021)

Thank you for your feedback and advice.

The best solution is to take what is more interesting in the two products.

On the one hand for the mixing and mastering on the other hand for the fx.


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## bill5 (Mar 1, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> @bill5
> 
> What you’re failing to understand UA embeds the cards and interfaces with sharc chips that process the audio,this is part of the architecture of everything they create.
> Back in the day it took an enormous strain off computers that couldn’t handle the heavy lifting that UA’s plug-ins required.
> ...


I am happy to concede for the sake of argument that they have plugins that make angels weep; that is not my point, so not sure why you feel a need to defend them in a general way. And as I mentioned earlier, I get the logic of sharing the CPU load with hardware (for the sake of argument let's say it's still a worthy strategy, although you've already mentioned that's debatable). Again, my point is it doesn't makes sense that they made it specific to UAD-only hardware. That is not a blanket statement, it an opinion and IMO a sound one. I'd bet a month's pay it would not be hard for them to remove this restriction in the plugin and therefore open themselves up to more customers who are interested in their plugins, but as they're already expensive, are turned off by the idea of even further costs to have to buy their hardware just to run their plugins. I maintain that that is ridiculous. You disagree, fine, you think it's worth it, great, but there plenty of other great plugins out there without this odd requirement. To each their own though.


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## kgdrum (Mar 1, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I am happy to concede for the sake of argument that they have plugins that make angels weep; that is not my point, so not sure why you feel a need to defend them in a general way. And as I mentioned earlier, I get the logic of sharing the CPU load with hardware (for the sake of argument let's say it's still a worthy strategy, although you've already mentioned that's debatable). Again, my point is it doesn't makes sense that they made it specific to UAD-only hardware. That is not a blanket statement, it an opinion and IMO a sound one. I'd bet a month's pay it would not be hard for them to remove this restriction in the plugin and therefore open themselves up to more customers who are interested in their plugins.


I say this because you keep on making statements about something you obviously don’t understand and have never used.
The architecture of ALL UAD Plugins have been written utilizing the sharc chips.
They have somewhere between 150 and 200 plugins that have been written with this architecture. How much time and money do you think a total rewrite of all of their plugins cost?
How many customers that have been with them for 20+ years and invested in UAD would be happy that now everything they have will soon be on Pirate-Bay?
What successful company that can * NEVER* get pirated and can offer customers ZERO Latency with their plugins is going to rewrite their entire lineup of almost 200 plugins so they can open themselves up to piracy?
Take away the advantage of offering ZERO LATENCY take away the source of income and open themselves up to piracy when they already have a formula that’s kept them in an unique and profitable position in the industry?
Why would any successful company want to do this?

Record a guitarist through an entire effect chain and Amp in REAL TIME.
Record a vocalist through an entire effect chain through a great reverb in REAL TIME.

What company would want to abandon this unique advantage?


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## Crossroads (Mar 1, 2021)

Did not read every response and this answer doesn't go into either if your options but presents a third option.

Reason Rack Plugin/DAW. For electronic music creation/mixing/mastering? It's the bees knees.


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## Crossroads (Mar 1, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I say this because you keep on making statements about something you obviously don’t understand and have never used.
> The architecture of ALL UAD Plugins have been written utilizing the sharc chips.
> They have somewhere between 150 and 200 plugins that have been written with this architecture. How much time and money do you think a total rewrite of all of their plugins cost?
> How many customers that have been with them for 20+ years and invested in UAD would be happy that now everything they have will soon be on Pirate-Bay?
> ...


One that wants to make even more money. I find your reaction really dramatic.

I've recorded and mixed all kinds of shit. Never needed UAD. Ever. Or Pro Tools. Or MAC. It's all a fairytale of professional audio hodgepodge. Sometimes this industry can be just as bad as the audiophile industry.

... I take that back... it can be worse. Legendary, mojo inducing zero latency my ass. Bullshit. It's all bullshit. Not needed. As in, you can get by just fine never needing a UAD card ever in your life. I know, because I do. And I'm pretty succesful at what I do.

Just get a fast enough computer. You won't miss that UAD card. And the computer is propably cheaper😉

It might also come as a surprise to you that most modern producers won't pirate it because they don't know what it is and also, simply don't care about UAD at all. What if I told you the AIR FX bundle is more used and more popular in real life than UAD?


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## kgdrum (Mar 1, 2021)

@Crossroads
If your your comparing anything from AIR with UAD ,enough said,you might want to consider a standup comedy routine!
All of this with groundbreaking AIR plugins that range between $2 -$10,lol 😜
All kidding aside I actually agree with you wholeheartedly, to paraphrase what you said: I’m sure you have recorded & mixed all kinds of shit.
You are obviously another person that’s never used anything from UAD.
It’s commendable that you speak so freely about a subject that you are totally clueless about while mouthing off about something you’ve never used. Bravo!
You are basing your opinion on hearsay are totally uninformed and you think “modern producers won’t pirate UAD because they don’t care.”
No Mr. genius “modern producer” your posse doesn’t pirate UAD because they can’t. It also might surprise you that UAD isn’t developed exclusively for electronic music or Mac ,it’s used in all sorts of genres and actually used for a wide variety of recording,mixing and mastering scenarios.
If you actually read the entire thread and had a modicum of reading comprehension I actually told the OP that people suggesting UAD for him did not make sense,it was overkill. When you jumped in I was telling another person who knows about as much about UAD as you that it requires their cards or interfaces to be used.
All of the plugins require proprietary cards or interfaces that utilize sharc chips and the plugins are coded to be used in conjunction with the UAD cards and interfaces.Ironically this is the reason UAD is *NEVER* cracked.
Although UAD’s price of entry is expensive and like I said previously it’s probably not necessary like it was 20 years ago. Back in the day computers couldn’t handle the heavy lifting that UA’s approach provided and guess what? Some people still think UAD is the bees knees!
But thanks for showing us what you actually don’t know and thanks for trying to set me and everyone else straight!
Some of us have actually played in bands with musicians in all sorts of genres,Rock,Jazz,Funk and yes Electronic Music. Some of us have Orchestral and Conservatory training.Some of us have spent years in recording studios when they used tape and some equipment still had tubes.
If I had only known in 1974 when I started playing electronic music in bands with 3 synth players that actually played modular hardware synths while I played drums and then started playing on my own in 1984 that all I needed was AIR plugins and Reason,damn if I had only known!............Again thanks and I hope you enjoyed my "fairytale of professional studio hodgepodge"
P.S. if you’re ever in NYC the Comedy Cellar is on Macdougal St.
Cheers!

😂


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