# Hollywood Strings vs LASS



## mojamusic (Aug 15, 2010)

I have listened to numerous demos of LASS and I was almost sold on it, until I heard demos from Hollywood Strings. Has anyone compared the two libraries?


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## midphase (Aug 15, 2010)

I really think that before you start a new thread you might consider doing a quick search. The subject has been explored quite a bit here in other sections of this forum.


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2010)

I have both and like both. They sound very different to me, a difference that is fairly conspicuous in the demos. 

Kays is right that there are other threads about this. Some of them are a bit partisan.


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## gsilbers (Aug 15, 2010)

both of you are right but sadly this forum does not have a proper "search by topic title only" function thus a search for the 2 most common words in this forum will yield a trillion response of every time those 2 words have been used in any context. 

to the OP , check in the demo/listening area, go back a few pages and u will be able to find a side by side demo using the same midi source with the 2 libraries . .

[/img]


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## gsilbers (Aug 15, 2010)

and that was only the 1st of 21 pages


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## markblasco (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't have Hollywood strings, but I have other Play libraries, and I have LASS. I really prefer kontakt to Play, and from what I have read (and my experience with Play), you will be able to get more articulations with less memory using Kontakt 4.1 than you will with Play.

Sound wise, Lass gives you one sound (although a very good one), while HS gives you multiple mic positions. How much do you generally tweak your sound?

Both sound really good. With proper programming, both can sound very realistic. From what I understand, especially now with auto arranger, LASS is somewhat better if you want to just play it in once and move on, but if you want to be able to tweak the heck out of your sound, HS may have an advantage.

I have LASS, and unless someone were to throw me a million dollars, I don't feel any need for Hollywood strings.

Now, if you are working in a situation where you need that big film orchestra sound, than HS may be a better choice, but LASS will sound fine in this context as well.


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## gsilbers (Aug 15, 2010)

and for comparison sake here is the search by topic only in gearslutz..


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## gsilbers (Aug 15, 2010)

PAMMMM


right there... 2 threads about it... 

w/o the search by topic only.. it was 3 pages of 200 post each. 

dont wanna rain on anyones parade its just that ive had to post things that i know have been talked about. and there is so much wealth of info that w/o a good search by topic starter only its like building everything from scratch everytime. its like the movie memento  
like the .. well u get my point.


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 15, 2010)

I'm going to chime in here because no one has really said some of the things that probably should be said. I am one of the producers of Hollywood Strings. 

LASS has been out much longer than HS and has quite a few users on this forum. By all standards it is a great library. I really like the snappy spiccato and the legato is better than VSL, In my opinion. LASS has has different size sections so you can create small string ensembles. HS does this to a much lesser degree. HS doesnt have ANY solo instruments. LASS does. LASS actually has a fairly dry sound and doesn't actually have much of the sound of a soundstage built in to the samples, even though it was recorded on a soundstage. LASS does have some small tuning issues that will disappear in a real composition with reverb etc.. 99 percent of the time. HS tuning is kind of amazing. What can I say? We spent a lot of time with amazing players. 

If you purely compare amount of articulations, samples, dynamics etc.. Hollywood Strings is a much bigger project. The legato intervals have 3 or 4 dynamics in HS, vs. 1 and HS has bow change legato. HS let's you fully control vibrato and dynamics because we recorded more of this stuff than LASS. HS recorded 1 st and 2 nd violins and LASS didnt. LASS has some very cool performance tools that HS doesn't have. LASS has excellent sounding short notes, but HS has a lot more short articulations with more dynamics and round robins.

HS is a huge library and the lite patches will run on any decent system. These lite patches are equivalent to the biggest LASS patches in terms of amount of dynamics, chromatically sampled, vibrato control. However, you will be tempted to use the big leagto patches in HS and you will need a great computer to run those. I have a mega 64 bit PC with SSD. This runs my entire HS template. It was expensive though. Even the short note patches in HS are huge, so generally it is a more taxing to run HS than LASS.

HS sounds different than LASS and was engineered by Murphy. You have to decide whether you like the sound. We do have 5 mic positions, so it's pretty flexible. However mixing micas in real time will further tax your computer. I tend to use the mid tree and the main decca tree mostly. LASS has one mic position. 
HS has multiple finger positions, but in practice you will mostly use the warmer, more romantic further up the neck position.

LASS has a new auto divisi script, I think. HS doesn't have that. LASS let's you control the speed of portamento slides directly. HS let's you choose between 2 speeds of slide. HS legato and portamento and bow change legato transitions are all controlled automatically in real time so they fit the speed of the line you are playing. LASS does not do this. 

LASS is kind of a one man show and it is am AMAZING accomplishment. HS has 3 producers, a famous engineer and many programmers and editors behind it. That may appeal to you, or it may turn you off. I wanted it this way so nothing was left to chance. From my perspective, if Shawn Murphy thinks it sounds great, it is. But in reality, everyone has different tastes and perspectives. HS also has Thomas Bergersen behind it, who is the most accomplished midi composer and midi orchestrater I know.

I'm sure more things will pop into my head, but this is my initial reaction. HS has 3 major publication reviewing it right now. None of which we advertise in. Reviews will surface this fall.


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 15, 2010)

One more thing. I think it depends on what you are doing with these libraries. EWQLSO vastly outsold every other orchestra library in the US, because there are a lot of working composers here who need a great sound and need to work fast. It is now an older library with simple articulations but it still sounds good. particularly the brass and percussion. Hollywood Strings takes this a step further and gives you THE Hollywood String sound, but gives you control over it. I am a very good engineer, but I still agreed that it was better to have Shawn Murphy engineer Hollywood Strings. If you want to have the ability to have your music sound like a big romantic John Williams score, than you'd have to be crazy to buy anything else.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 15, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> I'm going to chime in here because no one has really said some of the things that probably should be said. I am one of the producers of Hollywood Strings.
> 
> LASS has been out much longer than HS and has quite a few users on this forum. By all standards it is a great library. I really like the snappy spiccato and the legato is better than VSL, In my opinion. LASS has has different size sections so you can create small string ensembles. HS does this to a much lesser degree. HS doesnt have ANY solo instruments. LASS does. LASS actually has a fairly dry sound and doesn't actually have much of the sound of a soundstage built in to the samples, even though it was recorded on a soundstage. LASS does have some small tuning issues that will disappear in a real composition with reverb etc.. 99 percent of the time. HS tuning is kind of amazing. What can I say? We spent a lot of time with amazing players.
> 
> ...




All that matters in the end is which library sounds better. I don't care if a dehydrated hobo recorded the library through a tin can if it somehow turned out well.

I wish there were more user demos of HS. For some reason there don't seem to be many.


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## mojamusic (Aug 15, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> I wish there were more user demos of HS. For some reason there don't seem to be many.



I found these great tutorials for Hollywood strings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVyoR5osoAk

Nick, thanks for your response. That's what I was looking for. The "search" for comparison was overwhelming. This gives me the insight that will help me decide. 

Best of luck and thanks for making great products!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2010)

LASS uses pitch-transposed versions of the violins to create Violin 2, John - that's what he means. You just throw in one of those sections to change the sound.


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2010)

thanks for clarifying; didn't know that

[DOUBLE EDIT: and Mike Connelly points out about the 64 bit version for Mac of Kontakt. _Both programs are 64 bit on PC_, but PLAY is not yet 64 bit on the mac. This is easy to forget if one is using Digital Performer as a DAW, as it is not 64 bit yet]


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 15, 2010)

I'd be curious what Andrew would have to say about the comparison, assuming he'd be willing to comment. It's obviously a bit one sided to have a pitch from one of the developers but not the other.



JohnG @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> sorry but must throw "the penalty flag" a bit here, for comments about a library you don't own.



So Nick P, do you own LASS?



JohnG @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> 3. PLAY and Kontakt 3.5 (the version I have) are neck and neck on resources and performance at this point. I am using both on an Intel Mac and in Vista 64 and both are working just great



PLAY isn't 64 bit yet on mac (and who knows when it will be) while Kontakt is. Also, Kontakt 4.1 has a compressed file format and background loading, it's a huge improvement over 3.5 and even 4.0.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 15, 2010)

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/71926-Lass-versus-hollywood-strings (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... od-strings)


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## Dan Mott (Aug 15, 2010)

Considering I'm a strings fanatic.......

I've been going through many string libraries. They all had their strengths, but HS was the only one that had "THE" sound for me.

HS sounds beautiful, lush and warm. I don't think IMO that HS's sound can be compared to any string library out at the moment because it has a very unique sound. It even makes me feel unique when I'm composing.

No joke, you want a beautiful string sound, HS is the one.


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## Stephen Baysted (Aug 15, 2010)

I have LASS, HS and all flavours of VSL strings. All are different and coexist very happily in my template. But I have to say that HS sounds fantastically good on its own or indeed blended with LASS/VSL/Symphobia. There is real beauty, richness, life and expressivity in HS. In many ways it's is a game changer, especially IMO in terms of realism and musicality. 

Kontakt is still way more stable than PLAY though and HS really does need SSDs in a separate slave machine to be fully deployable in real time. But it really is so good that it's well worth dedicating an entire slave machine to.

Cheers

Stephen


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 15, 2010)

JohnG @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> thanks for clarifying; didn't know that
> 
> [DOUBLE EDIT: and Mike Connelly points out about the 64 bit version for Mac of Kontakt. _Both programs are 64 bit on PC_, but PLAY is not yet 64 bit on the Mac. This is easy to forget if one is using Digital Performer as a DAW, as it is not 64 bit yet]


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## sevaels (Aug 15, 2010)

Nick P. - That's by far the best and most accurate post regarding 'LASS vs HS' yet.

Well done man!

:Honestly no sarcasm:

o-[][]-o


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## Ashermusic (Aug 15, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> Anyone know if there's some secret little stockpile of HS user demos somewhere out there? I think parts of HS sound really good it's just those violins that make me cringe. I guess I'm hoping to find a demo where someone makes them sound good.



It is a perfectly reasonable statement to say, "From what I've heard in the demos of HS, I greatly prefer the violins in" LASS, VSL, or (fill in the library of your choice.)

But if the HS violins in i.e. Threnody-Divisi demo make you "cringe" then I am sorry then either you simply do not like the sound of a real violin section as it is recorded for big budget motion pictures in Hollywood or London or you simply have no idea what that sound is. 

No library has ever captured that violin sound like Hollywood Strings.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 15, 2010)

sevaels @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Nick P. - That's by far the best and most accurate post regarding 'LASS vs HS' yet.
> 
> Well done man!
> 
> ...



+1


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## Animus (Aug 15, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> choc0thrax @ Sun Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone know if there's some secret little stockpile of HS user demos somewhere out there? I think parts of HS sound really good it's just those violins that make me cringe. I guess I'm hoping to find a demo where someone makes them sound good.



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## lux (Aug 16, 2010)

interesting points made here

i personally think HS would benefit a lot from seriously reduced version of their patches, in order to make it a library playable side to side to other stuff on a single computer.

I'm almost sure that the lack of demos is somehow related to the fact most people bought the big beast and have it lying somewhere waiting for a setup able to handle it like a normal thing. 

After all i think the main goal for people here and elsewhere is being good composers and orchestrators, not computer engineers. Adding computers to computers is a multiplier of trouble and not all the guys who live and market outside LA are willing to get their heads into

I know that creating a playable version out of millions samples isnt a joke, but still i suppose it worths the effort, mostly because people is actually aware about how heavy the thing is. I put my head into stores and talk to guys working there and most of them have a tendency to discourage purchasing HS because of the requirements. Its probably an actual loss in terms of sales. Reason is that they dont want the client coming back to the store and complain about the fact they arent able to use it, machine chokes and such.

Considering the worldwide distribution i think a playable version would pay itself probably. But i'm not a sales manager at EW.

In general i personally feel HS like a beautiful newcomer that i'm just afraid to meet for a while.

Luca


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## Thonex (Aug 16, 2010)

Wow... where have I been??!! :lol: 

Thanks Nick for your kind words and for giving a very good breakdown of the 2 libraries. I own many QLSO libraries and always respected your work and HS is no exception. o-[][]-o 

One thing I'd like to clarify since it has come up in the past is the the section sizes. The LASS A, B and C ensembles are divisi sections discretely recorded at different times with different players in 1/4, 1/4 and 1/2 section sizes whereas HS sections were all recorded at the same time. There are benefits to both methods.... and I believe the Gearslutz motto applies here:

"When you don't know which one to get... get both!!" :wink: 

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 16, 2010)

Andrew, I don't own LASS yet, but I have access to it at Remote Control and it definitely has its own magic. Thanks for the kind words. Cheers, Nick


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## guayalex (Aug 16, 2010)

gsilbers @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> check in the demo/listening area, go back a few pages and u will be able to find a side by side demo using the same midi source with the 2 libraries . .
> 
> [/img]



But I still haven't found what I'm looking for /\~O I really searched days for finding such a great comparison like as I understand *choc0thrax* wants to see as well. Could you pleeeeeaazze look maybe if you have that threat topic in your cache. With the keywords "Lass" or "Hollywood" I couldn't find it so far.


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## wqaxsz (Aug 16, 2010)

hs version
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ht=#214716

lass version
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ht=#214836

both i think
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ht=#214010

both
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=

a discussion
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 16, 2010)

Have there been any user demos of the same material done with both LASS and HS for legatos? It seems like most of the comparisons have been the short notes...and the reaction has often preferred LASS for that. People keep raving about the HS legatos but I still haven't heard a user demo (particularly of the legatos) that sounds noticeably better that the same thing done with LASS.



Peter Alexander @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> According to an e-mail I have from Jonathan Kranz at EW, PLAY is 64-bit on the PC and reads all the RAM in the system.



But as I said, not on the mac. And the memory server is better than nothing but having to run it via a bit bridge is still a compromise and isn't completely stable. Hopefully we'll see a 64 bit version on mac soon, the estimate was third quarter of this year which is now.


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## gsilbers (Aug 16, 2010)

wqaxsz @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> both
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=
> 
> a



there it is.

a very nice example of both libs.


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## bsound76 (Aug 16, 2010)

Here is one thing I've been wondering about: Sordinos.

LASS has recorded sordinos. No real legato available with those patches, though.

HS lists sordinos available as an "effect", leading me to believe that we are actually hearing some sort of filter, rather than recorded mutes.

Anyone know this for sure?


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## tfishbein82 (Aug 16, 2010)

bsound76 @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Here is one thing I've been wondering about: Sordinos.
> 
> LASS has recorded sordinos. No real legato available with those patches, though.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's definitely a filter. EWQL's reasoning was that they could replicate sordino effect for every articulation without another 300 GB of files and 12 months of recording/programming.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2010)

OK, I just spent about 1/2 hour doing the following.

1. I played in the first part of a simple violin melody, the theme from the Summer of 42, using legato Bow Change+ Slur Lite Vln 1 + 2 patches in Hollywood Strings. (I added no processing or EQ.) 

2. I copied them to the LASS Vln 1 +2 full section legato LPG Speed P + G Lite and made a couple of modwheel adjustments as it responds differently.

3. I then copied them to the Kirk Hunter Concert Strings II Vln 1 +2 16 legato and made a couple of modwheel adjustments as it responds differently.

I bounced them all.

Anyone who wants to hear these, email me requesting them and I will send them to you. [email protected]


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 16, 2010)

I like having the real sordinos in LASS, they definitely give a quality that is different beyond just different EQ (and I have to admit that I was skeptical that I'd ever even use sordinos). Same with real divisis. I have yet to hear a HS demo of the divisis that sounds like divisi to me.


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## Thonex (Aug 16, 2010)

bsound76 @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Here is one thing I've been wondering about: Sordinos.
> 
> LASS has recorded sordinos. No real legato available with those patches, though.....



Hi bsound76,

LASS will be releasing divisi sordino legato library within the next few months.

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## bsound76 (Aug 16, 2010)

Thonex @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Hi bsound76,
> 
> LASS will be releasing divisi sordino legato library within the next few months.
> 
> ...




That's great. Is this divisi sordino legato library the LASS 2 we've been hearing about? Or something else entirely?

Color me interested, though, I really dig the sordinos within LASS lite.


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 16, 2010)

A slightly different view:
http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... ing-redux/


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 16, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> A slightly different view:
> http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... ing-redux/



A couple minor corrections to the article...



> This now leaves us with the additional choices of an 8-core system or an i7 Quad Core for the Mac Pro, any of which has the option of having four hard drives and 32GB of RAM over 8 slots on the motherboard.



The quad config of mac pro is xeon, not i7 (which doesn't make much difference in use, but might as well correct it), and it has four ram slots.

Also, I believe that Studio One from presonus is also 64 bit. Shame there aren't more, I'm surprised that steinberg hasn't got it working yet.


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 16, 2010)

Thank you for taking the time to send me the correction. It's corrected.


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## guayalex (Aug 16, 2010)

Pretty much Thanks wqaxsz and gsilbers! o-[][]-o

Although I would love to hear a better comparison. The very short spiccatos of Lass doesn't match with the longers staccati of HS I think. At least there should be a demo comparing both staccato and not stacatto vs spiccato hmm and besides that I'd love to hear a file with legato as already have been said. But Thanks again for searching and sharing what we already have.

Therefore I already mailed you Jay :D I'm very curious about your comparison...


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## JohnG (Aug 16, 2010)

Making a demo that shows all the short articulations is going to be a time-consuming process; there are two separate categories of short articulations in HS, and each has 9 or 10 patches.

For basses and for violin 1 in HS, there are 10 different patches under "Short Tight," and 10 more (they are labeled the same) under "Short Loose." Nine each, for each of Tight and Loose, for Vln2, Vcl, and Vla.

Some of these are effects, like col legno or Bartok pizz, but still, it would take quite a bit of time to really demo the whole suite.

LASS lists two, staccato and spiccato, but they do sound very good.

Personally, I don't think I'd choose based solely on the short articulations. I am sure people can develop preferences based on the short articulations, but to me it's the sound of the longer notes that is more conspicuously different. 

Put differently, I would not have invested in either library if all I were seeking were better short articulations, however good they are.

One last thing -- both LASS and HS have had upgrades that are quite meaningful. LASS has very seriously addressed tuning issues that used to bug me and some other users. HS has added a set of "niente" patches that allow one much greater control over entrances and fade-outs, plus many other patches. Some, maybe most, of these patches for both libraries are not necessarily reflected in the demos that appear online.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2010)

guayalex @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Pretty much Thanks wqaxsz and gsilbers! o-[][]-o
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore I already mailed you Jay :D I'm very curious about your comparison...



I only did legato.


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## David Story (Aug 16, 2010)

To me, HS is the most effective. Makes me think LASS will not be as useful as I hoped. Though it can sound warm and legato also, it seems HS may be worth the trouble many have in setting it up.


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## mojamusic (Aug 16, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> OK, I just spent about 1/2 hour doing the following.
> 
> 1. I played in the first part of a simple violin melody, the theme from the Summer of 42, using legato Bow Change+ Slur Lite Vln 1 + 2 patches in Hollywood Strings. (I added no processing or EQ.)
> 
> ...



Jay did you use the K4 or EXS24 version of KH strings?


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## givemenoughrope (Aug 16, 2010)

Are there any demos out there of them blended maybe even with some vsl also?

Listening to Jay's bounces leads me to believe that blending or layering, etc. IS an option since both libraries are relatively dry; not like the close mics of EWSO.

Instead of one vs. the other, it seems like both is the perfect library.


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## germancomponist (Aug 16, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Anyone who wants to hear these, email me requesting them and I will send them to you. [email protected]



Jay, please post the links here. I think there is nothing wrong to do that. o-[][]-o


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## Justus (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks Jay for doing the sample demos.

I was a bit surprised that the legato transitions in the HS demo were near inaudible. Or is it just me?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2010)

mojamusic @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I just spent about 1/2 hour doing the following.
> ...



No, Kontakt as that is probably what most will buy.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2010)

germancomponist @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who wants to hear these, email me requesting them and I will send them to you. [email protected]
> ...



Nah :twisted:


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## germancomponist (Aug 16, 2010)

... o/~


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## JohnG (Aug 16, 2010)

Justus @ 16th August 2010 said:


> I was a bit surprised that the legato transitions in the HS demo were near inaudible. Or is it just me?



If one clicks on "AUDIO DEMOS" and then scrolls down a bit, there are HS section examples that demonstrate conspicuous legato / portamento at: http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-S ... W-190.html

As with LASS, it takes some getting used to HS' midi techniques and conventions in order to produce the transitions, whether portamento or just legato, that one wants. And of course it's something of a matter of taste as to just how much of this one likes to use. 

In my view, for what it's worth, LASS' legato is truly excellent.


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## jamwerks (Aug 16, 2010)

Just listened to the 3 short examples by Jay Asher (thanks for putting them up!). Sounds like there was a little low level tremolo with the Kirk Hunter example. Are these 100% dry? IMO it might be better to work with a little ambience on these samples.

HW I liked the least. Sounds "processed" in a strange way. Then came to mind, VSL sounds hands down many times better to my ears! o-[][]-o


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 16, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Aug 15 said:


> HS tuning is kind of amazing. What can I say? We spent a lot of time with amazing players.



Does that mean there was no pitch correction applied? Just curious.


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 16, 2010)

HS has no pitch correction of any kind. 

You can hear HS legato in our online bare examples. The legato transitions are perfect. The bow change legato is a different story and is more subtle. Comparing audio examples of our unique bow change legato to regular legato is misleading. the bow change legato is for specific places in your music like portamento is. 

We are releasing a hard drive with trial versions of all our stuff on it. Hopefully that will end all this.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2010)

jamwerks @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Just listened to the 3 short examples by Jay Asher (thanks for putting them up!). Sounds like there was a little low level tremolo with the Kirk Hunter example. Are these 100% dry? IMO it might be better to work with a little ambience on these samples.
> 
> HW I liked the least. Sounds "processed" in a strange way. Then came to mind, VSL sounds hands down many times better to my ears! o-[][]-o



I would work with ambience on all 3. My idea was to show them au naturel.


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 16, 2010)

Warning !!!
severe frankness to follow

1. The Kirk Hunter example has a phasey sound due to the fact that KH strings were derived from single performances layered on top of one another. Jay, the fact that you go round on many forums telling people to buy that is not great for all that listen. 

2. The lass example sounds fine but could use a bit more controller riding.

3. The HS example is bow change legato, non vibrato at very soft dynamic level turned up. So it's as bad of a comparison as you could muster. HS has 13 layers of vibrato and dynamics and you didn't use any of it's expressive power or even figure out how to get the right articulation triggering. I'm sure you didn't do it on purpose, but maybe you should concentrate on learning how to use what you have.


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## Thonex (Aug 16, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Warning !!!
> severe frankness to follow
> 
> 1. The Kirk Hunter example has a horrible phasey sound due to the fact that KH strings were derived from single performances layered on top of one another. Jay, the fact that you go round on many forums telling people to buy that is really tragic for all that listen.
> ...



Hi Nick,

Thanks for chiming in on this... and while I haven't heard any of the examples myself, I agree with a lot you said. Furthermore, shoving the same midi data (even when massaging the mod-wheel) into different libraries is rarely (if ever) a good way to compare libraries because each library reacts differently on so many levels (CC, Vel, Mod-wheel, etc). Also, LASS is by design supposed to be used with reverb. Playing it "au natural" (like Jay apparently did) is like playing a Les Paul without an amp... it's not the way it was designed to be used.

Anyway... I'll go back to my Zen-like quote above "If you can't choose... buy both!!" :mrgreen: 

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Warning !!!
> severe frankness to follow
> 
> 1. The Kirk Hunter example has a horrible phasey sound due to the fact that KH strings were derived from single performances layered on top of one another. Jay, the fact that you go round on many forums telling people to buy that is really tragic for all that listen.
> ...



I love Hollywood strings and am thrilled to have them but I love these also. As does Bruce Miller. As does Jeff Beal. As does Jeff Bova. What I tell people is that it offers a nice combination of good sound, good workflow, and affordability. And I did get a couple of emails from people saying that they were pleasantly surprised how good they sound, even in this elite company.

I am indeed just learning your library and I chose those patches because I liked the way they sounded. If you want me to reassign this to other patches and send it to the people who requested it from me, I will happily do so. But as it is, almost everyone preferred the HS version anyway.

I did almost nothing with this as all I was trying to show is the tonal quality of the violins since yours were criticized by some here, nothing else. I was purposely NOT trying to stack the deck in favor of either HS, KH, or LASS.

The LAST thing I am trying to do is hurt EW. I tell everybody that HS is the best sounding string library I ever have heard and it is. I have defended you guys over and over on many forums, including this one.


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 16, 2010)

OK. I guess we just disagree about the KH thing. I can however clearly hear the sound of multiple close takes stacked with lots of reverb and eq in those samples. I know it well because I've done some experiments along these lines.

With HS there is a lot to figure out. The tutorials help. But generally, I would just use the regular slurred legato patches with lots of cc11 and cc1 riding. If you play connected and lyrically with controllers, it should sound very real and not choppy.

Sorry, I know I came off as pretty rude about it all.

The trial HS will be the whole thing and will last for a week or two.


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## MuzkGuy (Aug 16, 2010)

A few things:

First of all, I need to address a claim that KH's CS2 were recorded with multiple overdubs with processing and reverb in the samples. This is simply not true. As a matter of fact, they were recorded rather dry so as to work well with all of the great reverbs you can now get. It's possible the release setting was set fairly high in Jay's cue. It's all easy to change.

Additionally, the cue that Jay made seems to use a rather light vibrato selection from HS and LASS, whereas with KH, he seemed to use a heavy vibrato selection (not to mention that the volume was significantly lower). Using such a heavy vibrato can sometimes create a very "wide" pitch center, but at the same time, can also sound very lush and rich in the right kind of arrangement. I'd like to hear the same cue with equal amounts of vibrato on all three libs.

However, all in all, I thank Jay for posting such a "naked" comparison. 

Kirk Hunter


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2010)

Well, obviously I have learned a lesson here.

I truly was trying to help EVERYONE here, the members, and Nick, and Andrew, and Kirk, but clearly that backfired as both Nick and Andrew feel ill served, which was not my intention as I have great respect for both of them and their libraries, as well as Kirk.

Note to Jay from Jay: butt out. :(


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## Thonex (Aug 16, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Note to Jay from Jay: but out. :(



That's spelled with 2 "t"s. :wink: :lol:


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 16, 2010)

By the way, one string library that was conspicuously left out of this comparison among friends was Cinematic Strings 1.5 which honestly in my opinion has not been getting the fair shake they deserve (no offense intended to Kirk, Nick or Andrew).

Sampled strings are an extremely competitive market so any perceived notion of a one-up in a casual yet perhaps unscientific shootout could be probably be measured by each in terms of sales or inquiries at least in theory. I wouldn't take it personally Jay.


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## dcoscina (Aug 16, 2010)

I agree Frederick. But then again, I have all three libraries- CS 1.5, HS and LASS. Each brings something to the table. I love the tone and quality of HS. I cannot live without the short articulations and auto divisi of LASS and CS has its own timbral character that I like. Obviously not everyone is able to buy all three but I'm glad I didn't have to choose one over the other.

That said, if I had to go with ease of use, load time, sound quality, flexibility, and how often I use each one, LASS wins. I just seem to use it more than the other two but, as I mentioned, I'm very happy to have them in my arsenal.


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## MuzkGuy (Aug 16, 2010)

Lest we should get confused, CS2 is a completely different library than CS1.

Kirk Hunter


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## tmhuud (Aug 17, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> A slightly different view:
> http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... ing-redux/



Very good although a bit unfocused article here Peter. I have to applaud you regarding this "This is why I believe the more important thing today is having complete system specs for both platforms from all the developers for their own products which include CPU, RAM, hard drive types and results - and then consider your libraries"

Developers should really outline this info for fair 'shoot 'em outs'. It's just too easy to tell everyone "Get the fastest system available with the most RAM and largest/fastest hard drives you can afford."


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## Steve Martin (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi Nick,

I saw that you mentioned something about releasing a trial version? Do you mind explaining what you are meaning here? That would be great!

many thanks,


Steve


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## synergy543 (Aug 17, 2010)

tmhuud @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> Developers should really outline this info for fair 'shoot 'em outs'. It's just too easy to tell everyone "Get the fastest system available with the most RAM and largest/fastest hard drives you can afford."


Terry, doesn't it depend upon what you're doing with the system? 

For example: 

What kind of music you're playing?
How many voices/tracks do you need?
What other libraries are you using with it?
etc.

There are way too many variables!


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## Stephen Baysted (Aug 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Tue Aug 17 said:


> tmhuud @ Mon Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Developers should really outline this info for fair 'shoot 'em outs'. It's just too easy to tell everyone "Get the fastest system available with the most RAM and largest/fastest hard drives you can afford."
> ...



Yes and no. Just one patch can easily turn into a pop and click fest with Hollywood Strings on an i7 with 12gb ram.


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## ChrisAxia (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi guys,

OK. I'll bite and let you hear a user demo! This is my first 'proper' use of HS and is a theme idea for a new BBC series I'm working on. As it's not a final version and the BBC have not yet accepted it, I think I'm safe posting it, and anyway, I'll have a few hundred witnesses (possibly) if anyone tries to steal my theme! If it is accepted, I will spend more time tweaking HS and mixing etc. I have to say that I don't believe I could have achieved this sound with LASS, which I also own and regularly use. 

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2160635/empire-theme-idea-hs-mp3-august-17-2010-8-45-pm-1-3-meg?da=y (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2160635 ... 3-meg?da=y)

~Chris


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## Rob Elliott (Aug 17, 2010)

While I do not have CS 1.5, I would have to agree with Andrew - get as many as the pocketbook would allow. On a daily basis I use HS, LASS and VSL (yes, I still think VSL short arts and dyn patches in solo and chamber are some of the best available.)

If you are getting paid to write music you simply cannot afford to limit your options - day to day. There is no other orchestral section that even approaches the strings in range of emotion, playing styles and dynamics. Having 'options' there is important to effectively execute your ideas.

At least for me - my client's expectations have never been higher for production value and even if the FINAL is not these mock-ups, I get the impression that sometimes a cue rejection is due more to the execution of samples then to the writing - of course, that is not ideal.


Rob


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## Ashermusic (Aug 17, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Mon Aug 16 said:


> By the way, one string library that was conspicuously left out of this comparison among friends was Cinematic Strings 1.5 which honestly in my opinion has not been getting the fair shake they deserve (no offense intended to Kirk, Nick or Andrew).
> 
> Sampled strings are an extremely competitive market so any perceived notion of a one-up in a casual yet perhaps unscientific shootout could be probably be measured by each in terms of sales or inquiries at least in theory. I wouldn't take it personally Jay.



I left out Cinematic Strings because I don't have it.

I don't take it personally, I just feel badly. I had a long chat with Andrew and he has caused me to rethink some things.

Because I feel Kirk's strings often get left out of the "great string library" conversation unfairly, I have perhaps been over-zealous about injecting them into a thread that is not a "great string library" thread, but a LASS vs HS thread, etc. I will not do so in the future.

What really pains me is that people have taken my praise for Kirk's strings as a lack of enthusiasm for HS and LASS, which could not be further from the truth. All 3 are great, anyone who can afford it should buy all three, etc. And for that matter, strictly in terms of sound, the Sonivox strings are damned nice also. I am using them all.

If someone can buy only 1or 2 they should choose based on sound, features, system requirements, and the type of composing they do. 

You have never seen me come here and praise Symphobia, which I do not own. Some will therefore think that I do not like it. Not true, I think it sounds great. But nobody hires me for the kind of score that needs that big sound approach and I do not get hired to do trailers, etc. If I get a call this week, where I need that, you can be sure I will get it in a heartbeat and if it works as well as anticipate it will, I will say so.

I hope this clarifies things.


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## JohnG (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi Jay,

I think we all understand that you were trying to be helpful, not partisan. 

There but for the grace of God go I. I spent more than a few minutes walking the same walk you did, having a go at a demo comparing short articulations. But when I realised how many short patches there are in HS and began to reflect on LASS' tools -- Auto Rhythm Tool, Anti Machine Gun tool, Auto Divisi, and others -- I decided I couldn't do any comparison real justice without spending hours on it and even then -- it's a tall order.


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## mojamusic (Aug 17, 2010)

Does String Essentials stand in this category? 

http://www.soundsonline.com/product.php ... tid=BS-396

I have used some of the earlier offerings from this producer (Akai CD-ROM version). Anyone have the K4 version?


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Tue Aug 17 said:


> What kind of music you're playing?
> How many voices/tracks do you need?
> What other libraries are you using with it?
> etc.
> ...



That's part of what devs should give as part of a system spec, especially for these newer, more demanding libraries. There are often "minimum" and "recommended" systems, but it would be better to give an example of how many instruments/how much polyphony on each. Even an example patch list "template" for each would be great to know.

Obviously every possibility can't be covered, but an example of a combination of instruments that can be run on a given system would be very useful.


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## guayalex (Aug 17, 2010)

Jay I'm very grateful for your demo because it's unique to have at least one such a relativeley "clean" comparsion (I can add reverb myself it's cool to have them dry) nad although there could be a more apropriate HS patch as Doug mentioned or the KH strings maybe layered or whatever I'm very grateful because to have your demos is so much more than having nothing to compare. In other words: When your comparison are apples and oranges than the previous comparisons I heard were Peanuts & Elephants o-[][]-o So thx! 

More of those comparisons with other patches are welcome but not even less than we have!


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## RiffWraith (Aug 17, 2010)

ChrisAxia @ Tue Aug 17 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> OK. I'll bite and let you hear a user demo! This is my first 'proper' use of HS and is a theme idea for a new BBC series I'm working on. As it's not a final version and the BBC have not yet accepted it, I think I'm safe posting it, and anyway, I'll have a few hundred witnesses (possibly) if anyone tries to steal my theme! If it is accepted, I will spend more time tweaking HS and mixing etc. I have to say that I don't believe I could have achieved this sound with LASS, which I also own and regularly use.
> 
> ...





KeepAndShare said:


> This document is located in the KeepandShare account "chrisnicolaides". To view it you need to ask the owner of the account "chrisnicolaides" to set the Share With controls to give your KeepandShare user name .....


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## David Story (Aug 17, 2010)

+1 for gratitude. 
Jay did a good deed by giving the same data to different programs.
This is how consumer research groups compare products.

It does show the strengths and weakness of a product in a harsh light, so few manufacturers will support testing.
I hope others will continue this process, of testing libraries with the same piece, quickly. That's how it will be used in the real world by busy composers.

It's great to buy everything, even greater to have assitants figure out the details of how to get each product to sound good. Till then...


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## lee (Aug 17, 2010)

Btw, welcome to the forum Mr Hunter!

/Johnny


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 17, 2010)

David Story @ Tue Aug 17 said:


> +1 for gratitude.
> Jay did a good deed by giving the same data to different programs.
> This is how consumer research groups compare products.
> 
> ...



I completely agree, while the midi data should be tweaked to get the best sound from each library (which it sounds like Jay tried to do), it's hard to get a more direct comparison than having the exact same line. Just because a test isn't perfect doesn't mean it still can't be useful.

If anyone else wants to take a shot at the same sort of thing, I'd suggest posting the midi file as well so that others who have the library can try it with other patches that may be more appropriate or tweaking the CC values differently. If Nick doesn't feel that it best reflects how HS sounds, he could do his own version that he feels shows off the best side of HS (or whoever/whichever library). Of course with a simple melody it can be done by ear but having the midi would be quicker (and allow starting with the same CC data and tweaking it instead of having to do it from scratch).


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## dcoscina (Aug 17, 2010)

I just have to recap what Frederick said earlier about Cinematic Strings. With their 1.5 update they are very usable, lush and are a contender. I have been playing around with it for a while now and I find the sound very nice.


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## ChrisAxia (Aug 17, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Aug 17 said:


> ChrisAxia @ Tue Aug 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys,
> ...



Oops! Sorry guys. First time I tried this file sharing site, and forgot to turn on 'public access'. Please try this link and let me know if it works.

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2160635/empire-theme-idea-hs-mp3-august-17-2010-8-45-pm-1-3-meg (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2160635 ... pm-1-3-meg)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 17, 2010)

I just had a crazy thought, which I know won't fly, but... imagine if there was a reduction in the price of one if you have two others? Like, if you have LASS and CS, you pay less for HS, or VSL (strings only, of course). And vice-versa, vice-versa. The companies don't lose because few of us have the $$$ to buy every string library that comes out, and only an amazing deal would get us to shell out again. 40% off would be a nice start.

* cough * Great Recession * cough *

* cough * tiny market * cough *


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## germancomponist (Aug 17, 2010)

Ned, 

imagine, if you could buy a HS 16bit version, running at only one (maybe a not fastest) computer! /\~O


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 17, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Aug 17 said:


> I just had a crazy thought, which I know won't fly, but... imagine if there was a reduction in the price of one if you have two others? Like, if you have LASS and CS, you pay less for HS, or VSL (strings only, of course). And vice-versa, vice-versa. The companies don't lose because few of us have the $$$ to buy every string library that comes out, and only an amazing deal would get us to shell out again. 40% off would be a nice start.
> 
> * cough * Great Recession * cough *
> 
> * cough * tiny market * cough *



It's a GREAT thought. This is the "cross grade" approach used by many.


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## gsilbers (Aug 17, 2010)

or wait for those east west deals that seem that belong in the used car dealer shops.  
get one library have 20 more for free, but for just one month.. which will be extended anyway and after that it will be buy one library and get 30 for free thus, u suck if u bought the library for 20 for free. (NI wasnt better either; buy K6 for half the price a week later!) 

so im just waiting for the buy HS and get the composer collection for free  
(or something a used car dealership owner in van nuys would say


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## Ashermusic (Aug 18, 2010)

gsilbers @ Tue Aug 17 said:


> or wait for those east west deals that seem that belong in the used car dealer shops.
> get one library have 20 more for free, but for just one month.. which will be extended anyway and after that it will be buy one library and get 30 for free thus, u suck if u bought the library for 20 for free. (NI wasnt better either; buy K6 for half the price a week later!)
> 
> so im just waiting for the buy HS and get the composer collection for free
> (or something a used car dealership owner in van nuys would say



Oh brother! When software is new there are R & D as well as other costs that need to be recouped. Eventually, the price comes down on most of it after that has been achieved. There is nothing wrong with that. If you are on the cutting edge, you bleed. So when you want the "latest and greatest", yes, you will pay a lot more.
I don''t know the numbers but HS must have cost a LOT of money to produce.

And as someone who lives in a part of Van Nuys (Lake Balboa), if you buy a certified used car from one of the higher wend dealerships, you are sometimes getting good value for your buck.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 18, 2010)

Picking a reasonable price for a library and sticking with it makes sense.

Starting with a higher price and lowering it over time makes sense.

Constantly doing "limited time" sales that are almost always available does seem gimmicky and can make it hard to take list prices seriously.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 18, 2010)

FTR, my point was not that HS or other libraries are too expensive. What I wanted to point out is that some of us have many string libraries (I probably have at least 6 grand's worth), some of which were a pretty penny, and that we might be more enticed to buy yet one more if we were offered a deal.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't know if crossgrade would really work for instrument libraries. With a crossgrade from something like Finale to Sibelius, I'm sure their intention is that for most users when you get the new app, you're likely to stop using the old one. With sample libraries that would rarely be the case, at least crossgrading from a library that is fairly new.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 18, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Aug 18 said:


> Picking a reasonable price for a library and sticking with it makes sense.
> 
> Starting with a higher price and lowering it over time makes sense.
> 
> Constantly doing "limited time" sales that are almost always available does seem gimmicky and can make it hard to take list prices seriously.



"Reasonable Price" can only be determined by the developer, as they know what there cost were. That said, if it is priced high, while "reasonable" it limits the prospective buyer pool, no doubt.


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 18, 2010)

I agree with the pick a price and stick to it perspective. However, Doug has his way of doing things and he has proven to me over and over that he knows what he's doing in this area. But, don't expect any big sales on HS. There will be a Gold version though.


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## OlavB (Aug 18, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Aug 18 said:


> ...There will be a Gold version though.



I so hoped the Gold would come back!
Dare I ask when, roughly?


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## germancomponist (Aug 18, 2010)

OlavB @ Wed Aug 18 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Wed Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > ...There will be a Gold version though.
> ...



We now write the year 2010, but I do know many people who never knowed the sound/tone from EWQLSO Platinum with its closed mic position...... . 

I think the most know only the Gold version. :roll:


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## gsilbers (Aug 18, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Aug 18 said:


> gsilbers @ Tue Aug 17 said:
> 
> 
> > or wait for those east west deals that seem that belong in the used car dealer shops.
> ...



i dont think u got my joke and comment. 

no one said they shouldnt re coup costs. obvious its how they make thier money back. 


maybe if i said instead... 

buy one library get 2000 libraries for free!!!! 
but only for one month! call now operators are waiting! (countdown on screen is on)
and hey its only for one more month although we said its only for a month last month!!! 
(next month)
buy one library get 40000000 libraries for freee...!! !
if you find a better deal your mattress is FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
hmm.. i mean library  

and sorry for insulting the nice sales folks of van nuys.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 18, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Aug 18 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > gsilbers @ Tue Aug 17 said:
> ...



:lol: No problem.


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## JohnG (Oct 9, 2010)

Hi all -- I split off the VSL and LASS discussion into a new thread. It can be found here:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... o=1#240251


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## muzicphiles (Oct 9, 2010)

IMO both are great you will just have to make your mind on which one to buy first !


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