# Bitwig - Spectral Suite



## grabauf (Oct 5, 2022)

Today Bitwig released their first add-on "Spectral Suite". 






Bitwig Studio 4.4 | Bitwig







www.bitwig.com





Though it looks really interesting, a lot of customers feel betrayed by Bitwig, as it is not included in the upgrade plan.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## Markrs (Oct 5, 2022)

To be honest I always thought Bitwig's yearly update plan was to high anyway and now they want you to pay separately for add one, makes Ableton, Cubase, etc look cheap buy comparison.


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## mostexcellent (Oct 5, 2022)

Markrs said:


> To be honest I always thought Bitwig's yearly update plan was to high anyway and now they want you to pay separately for add one, makes Ableton, Cubase, etc look cheap buy comparison.


Agreed, this cheapens the value of the upgrade plan, which was already priced above the competition. This move shows that they can just arbitrarily and unilaterally decide to gate certain features behind a paywall, which defeats the whole purpose of paying for a year of upgrades. Plus it just feels disingenuous for them to act like calling them add-ons suddenly puts it in a whole new category.

EDIT: And as pointed out later in this thread, their EULA specifically categorizes add-ons with upgrades which are covered by the update plan.


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## grabauf (Oct 5, 2022)

And who decides which feature is included and which is an add-on? 
So far there was only Bitwig Studio, now it feels a bit like they try to introduce a Bitwig Studio Suite.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 5, 2022)

This should've been added for free in Studio imo.

Will these add-ons have an upgrade plan of their own?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 5, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> This should've been added for free in Studio imo.
> 
> Will these add-ons have an upgrade plan of their own?


Yes, there will be a separate tier including these and future add-ons. How they differentiate between what to include in the standard vs pro plan (or whatever they decide to call it) is anyone's guess. As a long time Bitwig user to say I feel betrayed and greatly disappointed would be an understatement. Everyone I know in the Bitwig community is up in arms about this.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 5, 2022)




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## Mindbullets (Oct 5, 2022)

Agreed with everything in Alchemedia's video. Why is 4.3.9 is behind a paywall I already paid for? I do like BitWig's product and hope they get this sorted, but they still have core DAW features that need attention, IMHO (e.g. piano roll). FL Studio's licensing model is looking pretty good right now.


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## GregSilver (Oct 5, 2022)

And a whole lot of new offers for used Bitwig licenses on Knobcloud.... not the most clever move by Bitwig imho.


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## Technostica (Oct 5, 2022)

GregSilver said:


> And a whole lot of new offers for used Bitwig licenses on Knobcloud.... not the most clever move by Bitwig imho.


I did look and see that five went up today. 
All by sellers with zero feedback though. 
It does come across as a knee jerk reaction to me. 
If I wore a Bitwig, I would wait to see how things unfold before taking it off. 
I suspect many of them are dabbling with it which is why they are jumping ship so easily.


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## Pier (Oct 5, 2022)

Personally I don't find the devices themselves that interesting... but the idea of the paid add-ons is quite a slap in the face for their paying users.

I totally agree with the Baphometrix video posted above by Alchemedia.

"Pay an annual fee to get everything Bitwig except this other thing you have to pay extra"

This makes me wonder though... why even do this at this point? Of course they knew people wouldn't like it. Is it because the company is in financial trouble?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 5, 2022)

"The stuff to get excited about is going to be behind a paywall now."


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## Pier (Oct 5, 2022)

Bitwig's official response...










__





Support | Bitwig


Find solutions for technical and license issues. Browse the Bitwig Studio manual. Report bugs. Contact support.




www.bitwig.com


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 5, 2022)

So they're saying they need money, but don't they know that forthcoming and upfront communication is a better way to not piss people off than arbitrary breaches/redefinitions of contract language? 

Some people have said "they made it perfectly clear, add-ons aren't part of the upgrade plan, therefor people are only mad because they feel entitled to free software for some reason". Frankly I'm surprise to even mention this counterpoint at all given how half-baked and simple it is, so, nevermind.

Inflation sucks. I hope bitwig will be okay. After they fix this by communicating waaaaaaaaay better than they just did about their policy going forward. I sure as heck wouldn't be updating again until there were $170 worth of features in 1-2 years, not if they're going to start arbitrarily separating extra-paid-for updates from already-paid-for-updates with no distinction other than "because we decided to call it a different name, so it's different"


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## Pier (Oct 5, 2022)

Thinking a bit more about this I'm starting to get a very different picture.

At first I was thinking that they really fucked up their release strategy and communication. They should have communicated in advance they were planning to release paid Bitwig add-ons, right? People could have decided in advance if they wanted to buy/renew under those terms or not.

But then, I remembered there was the U-He promo recently. Of course Bitwig aren't idiots. They knew their user base wouldn't like this. Probably a big percentage of people wouldn't have bought/renewed even with the U-He thing. So instead, they consciously decided to release the paid add-ons after the promo.

I don't know. I typically attribute stuff like this to ignorance instead malice, but now I'm not so sure. The timing is too perfect.

I do think Bitwig probably didn't imagine the backlash would be so strong.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> Bitwig's official response...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Keep upgrade plan affordable". Right.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> I do think Bitwig probably didn't imagine the backlash would be so strong.


The question is now: do they care enough? I'd be interested to see if and how they respond to this.


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## Pier (Oct 5, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> The question is now: do they care enough? I'd be interested to see if and how they respond to this.


Who knows.

I don't think their user base will just be happy if they decide to give these add-ons to people with an active plan.


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 5, 2022)

No, backpedalling is not going to improve the optics. A "we hear that you are frustrated because of this unannounced change to what people felt was a clear and agreed upon update policy, after people had paid for it, and that lack of communication constitutes a mistake we'd like not to repeat", even devoid of any actions taken outside of the acknowledgement, would go much further.

BUT WILL THEY EVEN DO THAT? One would hope, it's literally words on a page, man, that's a lot less "development time" spent on a marketing person (or their CEO, lmao) writing a public statement than their development time spent on the spectral suite paid for by update plans.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> Who knows.
> 
> I don't think their user base will just be happy if they decide to give these add-ons to people with an active plan.


You're right. This has everything to do with the notion of supporting a small developer and their innovative (sort off, whole other discussion) product. This creates a certain bond: you pay a pretty hefty upgrade fee every year, but you do it because you know it'll help the developer evolve the product you invested a lot of time and effort in to get to know, use and help support. You're part of a community who stand by that dev who from the beginning was clear that the upgrade plans are there to support any future development and release. And then for them to break that trust, that bond. That's not something you can easily come back from. People feel betrayed.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> Thinking a bit more about this I'm starting to get a very different picture.
> 
> At first I was thinking that they really fucked up their release strategy and communication. They should have communicated in advance they were planning to release paid Bitwig add-ons, right? People could have decided in advance if they wanted to buy/renew under those terms or not.
> 
> ...


Exactly! They may have irreparably damaged their brand loyalty in one fell swoop unless they can come up with some brilliant damage control ASAP. In retrospect the U-He promo seems like a last-ditch money grab ala iZotope. Perhaps a sell-out to Francisco Partners is next.


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## Pier (Oct 5, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Exactly! They may have irreparably damaged their brand loyalty in one fell swoop unless they can come up with some brilliant damage control ASAP. In retrospect the U-He promo seems like a last-ditch money grab ala iZotope. Perhaps a sell-out to Francisco Partners is next.


That would be quite a twist!


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 5, 2022)

I would understand this addon thing if they had released them in CLAP format so everyone can buy them and use them in their DAW if it supports CLAP. Now they are clearly aimed at Bitwiggers and the company is starting to tell what they should use their DAW for. This clearly is not what they deem essential and makes me worried what oyher things they will not deem essential in the future. Will the features I NEED be deemed not essential?

I too have supported Bitwig as they are the new guy and I feel more options on the market make the market healthier, but this is not a healthy way to reward your supporters.


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## machinesworking (Oct 5, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> You're right. This has everything to do with the notion of supporting a small developer and their innovative (sort off, whole other discussion) product. This creates a certain bond: you pay a pretty hefty upgrade fee every year, but you do it because you know it'll help the developer evolve the product you invested a lot of time and effort in to get to know, use and help support. You're part of a community who stand by that dev who from the beginning was clear that the upgrade plans are there to support any future development and release. And then for them to break that trust, that bond. That's not something you can easily come back from. People feel betrayed.


This perfectly sums it up. I bought Bitwig as a possible replacement for Live since Ableton were dragging their feet with MPE, and Ableton can really drag their feet sometimes. I even bought an update plan that ran out a while ago. We end users have accepted a slightly higher price for keeping updated in Bitwig to help develop it into something new, and for them to take that money and develop a paid plug in suite is flat out betrayal. 

When they came out, I didn't pay them much attention, they had a controller script in place, with no native support, you were supposed to know how to code your own controller script. So they crowd sourced their control surface support. I smelled something a little fishy there and didn't give them the time of day. 

I think I'm done now. Besides DP and Live both have MPE support, that's the main reason I was interested in Bitwig. It's IMO not even up for debate which is more powerful in terms of feature set, Live with Max4Live kills the Grid etc.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> Bitwig's official response...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Make sure to let them know if this response was helpful!


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## machinesworking (Oct 5, 2022)

Mindbullets said:


> Make sure to let them know if this response was helpful!


Oh I let them know. I can't begin to explain how broken my trust is with them now.


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 6, 2022)

Another thing that bothers me here is that to me this whole scheme smells preplanned. The sale with u-he right before this and the way Polarity defended the move and mentioned/speculated that maybe there would be 3rd party creators. For me this feels a little too close to comfort knowing Polarity works with the Bitwig development team. Was there shared knowledge before hand of this move and how many others knew before hand...


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 6, 2022)

I can see the problem for Bitwig. The pushback on The Grid being part of the update plan was seen by many as "not part of the core functionalities they most wanted bitwig to have as part of the update plan", ...so in that sense, this is the response. Why not just communicate about it though? Maybe a few surveys now and again would be good, alongside just a general dialogue (one that is ongoing) about the vision for core updates and business models, at least once they're sufficiently through the pipeline enough to speak about in public.

Not having known how the grid was received it was easier to be angry, now I'm just disappointed. The sense of underhandedness and Waves-y/Avid-y flavor surrounding how this was carried out still sours the air a bit.

I've only speculative potential buyer interested in the sound design bits, so as a solidly reaper/cubase/FL Studio user, I will harbor no discontent about how the bitwig community feels or reacts. It makes sense to be mad now, it will probably fade over the month, but I hope the developers/the press folks say something. Just talking about the difficulties of the past years of development, pursuing development directions, the impossible task of pleasing everyone, The Grid, these new addons and the futute of add ons and core development... that would be a healing step


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## machinesworking (Oct 6, 2022)

Kuusniemi said:


> Another thing that bothers me here is that to me this whole scheme smells preplanned. The sale with u-he right before this and the way Polarity defended the move and mentioned/speculated that maybe there would be 3rd party creators. For me this feels a little too close to comfort knowing Polarity works with the Bitwig development team. Was there shared knowledge before hand of this move and how many others knew before hand...


 I think influencers in general are just awful. Surrogate "friends", ugh. I watched maybe one Polarity video and realized I just can't. The fact these people have patreons, I just don't get it? 

I mean I get the idea of helpful videos showing off features of a DAW, but there's so dammed much fluff in these influencer videos, chat at the beginning, then there's more of an appeal to their own cleverness rather than really breaking down a feature set. The video I watched was on the Grid, and he was introducing it by showing off his hundreds of modules self generating music machine. A literal "look how kewl I am, look how powerful this is" approach, almost no break down of how to do what he did, just an ego flex and advertisement for the Grid, and 15 minutes I won't get back.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 6, 2022)

Kuusniemi said:


> Another thing that bothers me here is that to me this whole scheme smells preplanned. The sale with u-he right before this and the way Polarity defended the move and mentioned/speculated that maybe there would be 3rd party creators. For me this feels a little too close to comfort knowing Polarity works with the Bitwig development team. Was there shared knowledge before hand of this move and how many others knew before hand...


It's a slippery slope. YouTuber's generally cross the line into shill territory once they become recognized as a so-called "influencer" and accept sponsorship whether in $ or NFR software.


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## GregSilver (Oct 6, 2022)

Kuusniemi said:


> and the way Polarity defended the move and mentioned/speculated that maybe there would be 3rd party creators


For me, these „independent“ Youtube suckers are always the icing on the cake. As you said, the timing was pretty perfect.

Hopefully U-He doesn‘t get involved in this shitstorm by collaborating with Bitwig.


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 6, 2022)

GregSilver said:


> Hopefully U-He doesn‘t get involved in this shitstorm by collaborating with Bitwig.


This is part of what I am thinking. The CLAP format, the u-he sales... How much do they share?


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## machinesworking (Oct 6, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> It's a slippery slope. YouTuber's generally cross the line into shill territory once they become recognized as a so-called "influencer" and accept sponsorship whether in $ or NFR software.


A good example is Kenny Gioia slipping into influencer territory, coupled with sponsorship by Cockos. I have no problem with one or so videos where you show your face, but the main focus of any DAW video I want to see should not be you. I'm sorry if that's rude but I don't really care that much about people I don't know in real life, I don't want a single one way conversation with any uncanny valley at all in it. I don't mind knowing it's a human, but why on earth do we need to act like we're friends? because it's not real, it's not why I'm watching the video, I want to know about Reapers bouncing options, and I'm not lonely enough to get comfort from your small talk.
We somehow went from the concept of a little bit of mystery being a good thing to influencers and reality TV. We went from learning to virtual "friends" and I'm obviously alone in my disgust, because it's wildly popular, and it makes me sad to think about how lonely people must be that this is normal now.


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 6, 2022)

Kuusniemi said:


> This is part of what I am thinking. The CLAP format, the u-he sales... How much do they share?


Not much, looking from the outside in. U-he/Urs' communication regarding Zebra 3 for instance has been very transparent, with reassurance of continued communication about developments as release nears. Bitwig, I'm too new to them to say, but they really screwed the pooch even if it was just an unfortunate overcorrection from offering people updates that they didn't want. The explicit lack of communication about it adjacent to the recent sales and marketing does not do them any favors at all.


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## machinesworking (Oct 6, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> Not much, looking from the outside in. U-he/Urs' communication regarding Zebra 3 for instance has been very transparent, with reassurance of continued communication about developments as release nears. Bitwig, I'm too new to them to say, but they really screwed the pooch even if it was just an unfortunate overcorrection from offering people updates that they didn't want. The explicit lack of communication about it adjacent to the recent sales and marketing does not do them any favors at all.


I've been using Bitwig here and there for a couple years, and honestly lack of communication is pretty normal for developers and DAWs, but they did talk about a online collaboration feature when they started years ago, and they have not mentioned it since. They talked at first about the entire DAW being modular, and that's not happening either. Basically they aren't that great at being transparent. 

Urs on the other hand is an open book. One of the good guys, I met him in real life around the time of Zebra 1, he's the real deal, and I always took his leaning away from Ableton towards Bitwig as a positive sign, but like people are mentioning, it's obvious that's not the case here. No transparency, no loyalty to customers. 

My upgrade from Zebra 1 was $25, my upgrade to Zebra 3 will be free since I bought Dark Zebra. You can't beat that in the audio software world and Bitwig are not learning from U-He at all apparently. People are loyal to that kind of honorable behavior.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 6, 2022)

Ableton's clearly taking advantage of Bitwig's blunder. Just posted...


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## cedricm (Oct 6, 2022)

grabauf said:


> Today Bitwig released their first add-on "Spectral Suite".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would have been interested as a plugins suite usable everywhere. 

Just like I never bought a Reason - only extension, there's no way I'll purchase a Bitwig expansion.


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 6, 2022)

cedricm said:


> I would have been interested as a plugins suite usable everywhere.
> 
> Just like I never bought a Reason - only extension, there's no way I'll purchase a Bitwig expansion.


I agree that this would have been a perfect push for the CLAP format and would have given a reason for these to be called addons.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 6, 2022)




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## Russell Anderson (Oct 6, 2022)

I'm composing a forthcoming, polite and generous email (and increasingly concise... writing something short and dense always takes me longer than writing a 9 page essay), I am hoping for clarification on "add-ons" and mostly an answer to this question:

If the Grid were released today, it would be as an add-on, yes? 

I do not see how the Grid constitutes a core functionality while the Spectral Suite does not. So long as this is a clear change in policy that constitutes an attempt to keep actual core features and workflow improvements contained within the plan, and all "unique sound design generator/effects plugin" features as add-ons, I can get down with it based solely on the fact that at least it is consistent with itself.

That being said,


Kuusniemi said:


> I agree that this would have been a perfect push for the CLAP format and would have given a reason for these to be called addons.


I agree 100% with this, too.


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## Ger (Oct 6, 2022)

With this "bad move" they are destroying the trust of their user base with suddenly changing whats "inside" the Studio version as a "core" feature and what arbitrary is outside ... `just switched´ to the "small friendly software company" Bitwig from Cubase, because being interested in its CLAP support, but now ...


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## Pier (Oct 6, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> I can see the problem for Bitwig. The pushback on The Grid being part of the update plan was seen by many as "not part of the core functionalities they most wanted bitwig to have as part of the update plan"


Honestly The Grid was one of the selling points why I bought Bitwig a couple of years ago.

But after some time using Bitwig, I totally understood why users want development to focus on core functionalities. In fact, that was the reason I ended up selling my Bitwig license and moving to Cubase.

Actually, when the idea of Bitwig was first announced (I think around 2011?), a modular environment where people could create devices _a la_ Reaktor right in the DAW was actually the big innovation. Here are some screenshots someone posted on KVR about that:











Years passed, and then v1 was finally released without it. It wasn't until v3 in 2019 that they finally released The Grid.

Don't get me wrong, the grid is cool, but it's not even close to what was promised almost a decade earlier. Even today, 3 years after its release, you can't create submodules/containers and it's one of the most voted feature requests on Bitwish.

Bitwig has a long history of a bad relationship with its users.


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## Pier (Oct 6, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> It's a slippery slope. YouTuber's generally cross the line into shill territory once they become recognized as a so-called "influencer" and accept sponsorship whether in $ or NFR software.


Yeah...

Quanta, who is a super reasonable guy, today said he's very sorry if he influenced people to buy Bitwig.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 6, 2022)

The backlash on this is really big. Hope they learn something from it.


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## Pier (Oct 6, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


>


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## Pier (Oct 6, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> The backlash on this is really big. Hope they learn something from it.


It saddens me to say this but... I doubt it.

Bitwig clearly has no clue how to communicate with users. When all the backslah started they should have made some kind of public announcement.

The actions they've taken so far was to publish that stupid support article and change the text on the buy page:






And honestly I wonder whether this will have legal consequences. Even with the "all Bitwig Studio updates" text, one could totally argue these new devices are part of Bitwig itself.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 6, 2022)

Pier said:


> It saddens me to say this but... I doubt it.
> 
> Bitwig clearly has no clue how to communicate with users. When all the backslah started they should have made some kind of public announcement.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid you're right. We'll see what happens.

I'm on the fence on upgrading or not. This hasn't devalued the Bitwig software in any way for me, but does make me hesitant not knowing what will be in future updates and what will end up in an add-on. This situation just sucks.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 6, 2022)

I suspect one problem they've run into is that many of the customers have got wise to playing the update plan game, which is to simply only ever buy it on sale from a reseller and keep the code until you really need it for an update. So, you can with a little discipline get several months "free" and make sure you never wind up paying the full retail for the plan.

I wouldn't be surprised if their entire thought process for pricing the spectral suite was built around that observation: if you have an active, discounted plan, to get the suite now you pay €79, which oddly enough is more or less the difference between the normal discounted price and the current "Studio" update. However the difference between Studio and the Normal retail is just 20 or so. 

The problem they've run into is that this can easily be seen as penalising people with active plans, some of whom may have cashed in a plan to get the free u-he plugin just weeks ago. You either commit to a full plan on the basis that this is cheaper long-term or buy the suite separately. If they are surprised by the backlash from that, it's not encouraging for the long term.


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## Pier (Oct 6, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> This hasn't devalued the Bitwig software in any way for me


Yeah, of course you can keep using the software as-is if you're happy with it and it works with your OS.

But deciding to renew a yearly plan of updates implies you're expecting something in return. There's a component of faith in the company that they will fulfill a promise. The issue here is that Bitwig has broken the trust of many users by deciding to change the terms without notifying customers in advance.



gamma-ut said:


> I suspect one problem they've run into is that many of the customers have got wise to playing the update plan game, which is to simply only ever buy it on sale from a reseller and keep the code until you really need it for an update. So, you can with a little discipline get several months "free" and make sure you never wind up paying the full retail for the plan.


My memory could be failing me but... wasn't there some measure implemented recently about this?

Like the codes bought at JRR had to be activated within a couple of days?

Edit:

I must've dreamed this or something.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 6, 2022)

Pier said:


> The actions they've taken so far was to publish that stupid support article and change the text on the buy page:


Wow, nice catch. And super frustrating. We all bought the upgrade plan under the old verbiage.

I'm just a hobbyist, it's really no skin off my back to sell my BitWig license on KnobCloud and buy another DAW. Any of them could work for my purposes. I'll just find a company with a history of treating its user base well. FL Studio looks appealing from that perspective.


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 6, 2022)

Pier said:


>


BRUH
BREEHHHHHHHH

That's SO BLATANT, I am AMAZED

Is it weird that I can still see this as a blunder of pure PR incompetence? Like they actually might be trying to better serve the demographic that was mad about the release of the grid under the update plan

maybe I'm crazy


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## Pier (Oct 6, 2022)

Mindbullets said:


> Wow, nice catch. And super frustrating. We all bought the upgrade plan under the old verbiage.


It's not mine, I got that image from Reddit 



Mindbullets said:


> I'm just a hobbyist, it's really no skin off my back to sell my BitWig license on KnobCloud and buy another DAW. Any of them could work for my purposes. I'll just find a company with a history of treating its user base well. FL Studio looks appealing from that perspective.


That's exactly what I did 6 months ago. Sold my license on KnobCloud and bought Cubase 12.


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## GregSilver (Oct 6, 2022)

Pier said:


> Quanta, who is a super reasonable guy, today said he's very sorry if he influenced people to buy Bitwig.


Just wanted to post that video too Pier  My personal highlight of the video is at *1min 12sec* - that popup message in Bitwig is a slap into the user's faces. So annoying.


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## grabauf (Oct 6, 2022)

GregSilver said:


> Just wanted to post that video too Pier  My personal highlight of the video is at *1min 12sec* - that popup message in Bitwig is a slap into the user's faces. So annoying.


It really is annoying. If the Spectral Suite is an add-on, it shouldn't be listed under the normal packages.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 6, 2022)

Pier said:


> It's not mine, I got that image from Reddit


Here's another gem from Reddit.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 6, 2022)

This is a marketing disaster for a small, niche oriented company built entirely on customer loyalty.


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## GregSilver (Oct 6, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> This is a marketing disaster for a small, niche oriented company built entirely on customer loyalty.


Golden rule of any business: Don't piss off your customers. So my compassion is limited tbh.


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## fritzmartinbass (Oct 7, 2022)

Please don't let this thread die. I feel so cheated. This is false advertising. I love Bitwig, but I can't stand behind this.


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## machinesworking (Oct 7, 2022)

fritzmartinbass said:


> Please don't let this thread die. I feel so cheated. This is false advertising. I love Bitwig, but I can't stand behind this.


 If you're registered at KVR there's a 50+ page thread on this. KVR is Bitwig's "company forum". Believe me, this isn't going to blow over. Bitwig disregarded the update plans of thousands of their customers and changed the nature of their update plan mid stream, it really is one of the most tone deaf things I've seen a company do. 

Honestly I've been debating just going back to Live for my sound design Clip based DAW needs, (MIDI comping and the fact that there are hundreds of great M4L devices readily available etc.) and this really just cements it. Ableton have never pulled anything even remotely like this. In the long run Live is cheaper even before this malarky, that's another part of it.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 7, 2022)

Emulating the Waves model probably isn't the secret to a quiet life in audio-software development. 

"You get everything in Diamond's update plan, no wait, no you don't. That's Mercury now. No wait, no you don't..."


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## stratus (Oct 7, 2022)

Yeah, I switched recently from Ableton to Bitwig. This is enough disappointment/distrust to get me to switch back. It’s more than just $$, I like to be part of a team that I like and that I believe shares a similar vision.

I also realized how easily I can be held hostage. Spent a lot of time making sounds in the grid, wish I had spent that time using Pigments or something.


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## Pier (Oct 7, 2022)

stratus said:


> I also realized how easily I can be held hostage. Spent a lot of time making sounds in the grid, wish I had spent that time using Pigments or something.


Yeah...

Bitwig has a ton of customizations, but the more you invest your time into that, the more locked-in you are.

Of course there's no avoiding the dependance on a product you use... but something that can run on any DAW and any OS is probably a better option to invest your time in.


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## emid (Oct 7, 2022)

stratus said:


> Yeah, I switched recently from Ableton to Bitwig. This is enough disappointment/distrust to get me to switch back. It’s more than just $$, I like to be part of a team that I like and that I believe shares a similar vision.
> 
> I also realized how easily I can be held hostage. Spent a lot of time making sounds in the grid, wish I had spent that time using Pigments or something.


Exactly my thoughts.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 7, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> If you're registered at KVR there's a 50+ page thread on this.


Link for anyone who wants to participate in that conversation: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=587607

This was one of the most interesting replies so far: 

From the EULA (which is installed on my workstation alongside the Bitwig Studio version containing said Spectral Suite) :

1.3: "This EULA *also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions* in all editions except the Demo Edition."

2.5: the user "is entitled to receive *free Upgrades for a period of 12 months*, beginning with the registration of the license in the Bitwig user account. The User has the right to install and perpetually use *all Upgrades*, including newer versions of Bitwig Studio, which are being published during this period for his/her edition."

Also aligning with the EULA, I'd like to mention that even the change of wording on the website ("All software updates in the following 12 months are FREE" -> "All Bitwig Studio updates in the following 12 months are FREE") doesn't actually make it so that the Freq Split, Harmonic Split, Loud Split and Transient Split devices _aren't_ a part of Bitwig Studio. Other devices installed alongside the core program, in exactly the same manner and location, are referred to as a part of Bitwig Studio. Also, for example in a Windows installation they reside in the install location \Program Files\*Bitwig Studio*\[version]\Library\devices.

Everything installed under the folder *Bitwig Studio* is, pretty much by definition, part of the Bitwig Studio product. And, again, in addition to this, even the EULA specifically states that the user has the right to install all Upgrades, also outlining that the Upgrades also include add-ons.


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## Pier (Oct 7, 2022)

Ouch... I guess they didn't consult with legal.

Hopefully there will be an official answer on Monday.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Oct 7, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> BRUH
> BREEHHHHHHHH
> 
> That's SO BLATANT, I am AMAZED
> ...


OTOH if they substantially reduced the price of the upgrade plan from its current level for people who don't want add ons like the Grid / Spectral Suite / etc. I'd actually like that. I just use it as a DAW and I have plenty of third party plugins. 

Tried the Grid a bit but it's simultaneously too limited and too convoluted for what I wanted it to do---ultimately too time consuming with too little potential. And Grid presets I've tried haven't been as good IMO as third party plugins.


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## Pier (Oct 7, 2022)




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## Alchemedia (Oct 7, 2022)

When it comes to integrity and transparency in this biz U-He virtually set the bar, so I can't help but wonder whether Urs, for whom I have the highest regard, had advanced knowledge of this move before agreeing to U-He's partnership with Bitwig via CLAP and cross-promos and if not, what is his take on this situation? The recent cross-promo could be construed as unethical under the circumstances if it was indeed intended as a last-ditch money grab for Bitwig prior to dropping the $pectral $uite bombshell, which seems to be the case.


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## Pier (Oct 7, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> When it comes to integrity and transparency in this biz U-He virtually set the bar, so I can't help but wonder whether Urs, for whom I have the highest regard, had advanced knowledge of this move before agreeing to U-He's partnership with Bitwig via CLAP and cross-promos and if not, what is his take on this situation? The recent cross-promo could be construed as unethical under the circumstances if it was indeed intended as a last-ditch money grab for Bitwig prior to dropping the $pectral $uite bombshell, which seems to be the case.


I've been thinking about this too.

Urs is like the golden standard in terms of professional integrity and he's not too fond of sales. Maybe he even agreed to do the Bitwig thing just to help them out.

I wonder what will happen in the coming days/weeks. This breaking the EULA could become serious if someone goes to the German consumer protection (Bundeskartellamt) or maybe complains to their credit card companies for fraud. If that happens then what will U-He do? What about CLAP which is really a Bitwig + U-He initiative?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> I've been thinking about this too.
> 
> Urs is like the golden standard in terms of professional integrity and he's not too fond of sales. Maybe he even agreed to do the Bitwig thing just to help them out.
> 
> I wonder what will happen in the coming days/weeks. This breaking the EULA could become serious if someone goes to the German consumer protection (Bundeskartellamt) or maybe complains to their credit card companies for fraud. If that happens then what will U-He do? What about CLAP which is really a Bitwig + U-He initiative?



The EULA breech is obvious. They can't afford a lawsuit over this. The longer they postpone a remedy/damage control the more detrimental this will be for Bitwig.


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## Technostica (Oct 7, 2022)

Bitwig deserve the slow hand CLAP over this debacle.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 7, 2022)

Technostica said:


> Bitwig deserve the slow hand CLAP over this debacle.



What's Eric Clapton got to do with it?


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 7, 2022)

as someone who considered using bitwig while being a current studio one user....Maybe I missed the bandwagon, but I don't get the outrage. Yeah presonus is a far more corporate entity, but the fact that they have add-ons like fat channel, and other plugin suits never bothered me because not all users want or need them. I mean if they charged us for their new De-esser or vocoder, I'd think that's outrageous as they're more basic fundamental plugins for average users...but charging for analog hardware emulations?...seems reasonable. The idea that an upgrade cost includes everything seems a bit extreme to me. If you're getting the key fundamental updates and a reasonable stream of new features, it seems fair. Do all the users of bitwig actually need, or want the spectral suite, or is this outrage just about the fact that something extra isn't automatically available to everyone?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 7, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> as someone who considered using bitwig while being a current studio one user....Maybe I missed the bandwagon, but I don't get the outrage. Yeah presonus is a far more corporate entity, but the fact that they have add-ons like fat channel, and other plugin suits never bothered me because not all users want or need them. I mean if they charged us for their new De-esser or vocoder, I'd think that's outrageous as they're more basic fundamental plugins for average users...but charging for analog hardware emulations?...seems reasonable. The idea that an upgrade cost includes everything seems a bit extreme to me. If you're getting the key fundamental updates and a reasonable stream of new features, it seems fair. Do all the users of bitwig actually need, or want the spectral suite, or is this outrage just about the fact that something extra isn't automatically available to everyone?



Their business model was designed to encourage users to invest in the company via annual paid upgrades in exchange for frequent all-inclusive updates. IOW, the users are financing development in exchange. Now we are expected to finance paid add-ons, which is contrary to their EULA.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 7, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Their business model was designed to encourage users to invest in the company via annual paid upgrades in exchange for frequent all-inclusive updates. IOW, the users are financing development in exchange. Now we are expected to finance paid add-ons, which is contrary to their EULA.


I'm welcome to being wrong, but I doubt the EULA is on the user's side here. The conditions that apply to the use of all upgrades and add-ons does not equate to a right of access to all upgrades and add-ons. If some has the EULA that says the user is entitled to all upgrades and add-ons with no additional charge, cool.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 7, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> I'm welcome to being wrong, but I doubt the EULA is on the user's side here. The conditions that applie to the use of all upgrades and add-ons does not equate to a right to access to all upgrades and add-ons. If some has the EULA that says the user is entitled to all upgrades and add-ons with no additional charge, cool.


1.3: "This EULA *also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions* in all editions except the Demo Edition."

2.5: the user "is entitled to receive *free Upgrades for a period of 12 months*, beginning with the registration of the license in the Bitwig user account. The User has the right to install and perpetually use *all Upgrades*, including newer versions of Bitwig Studio, which are being published during this period for his/her edition."


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 7, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> 1.3: "This EULA *also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions* in all editions except the Demo Edition."
> 
> 2.5: the user "is entitled to receive *free Upgrades for a period of 12 months*, beginning with the registration of the license in the Bitwig user account. The User has the right to install and perpetually use *all Upgrades*, including newer versions of Bitwig Studio, which are being published during this period for his/her edition."


I don't interpret those two clauses as relating in the way people assume. 1.3 establishes that the conditions of the EULA apply to all upgrades AND add-ons. meaning the way in which the user agrees they are allowed to use the software applies to both.

clause 2.5 guarantees the user access to upgrades within the 12-month period, but this also does not seem to imply that this means all upgrades AND add-ons, as it doesn't state in this clause specifically that add-ons are an included guarantee. 

I could be wrong and a court could see it differently, but I don't think this EULA guarantees that access to upgrades and add-ons are the same.


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## Pier (Oct 7, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> as someone who considered using bitwig while being a current studio one user....Maybe I missed the bandwagon, but I don't get the outrage. Yeah presonus is a far more corporate entity, but the fact that they have add-ons like fat channel, and other plugin suits never bothered me because not all users want or need them. I mean if they charged us for their new De-esser or vocoder, I'd think that's outrageous as they're more basic fundamental plugins for average users...but charging for analog hardware emulations?...seems reasonable. The idea that an upgrade cost includes everything seems a bit extreme to me. If you're getting the key fundamental updates and a reasonable stream of new features, it seems fair. Do all the users of bitwig actually need, or want the spectral suite, or is this outrage just about the fact that something extra isn't automatically available to everyone?


The issue is that users expect all updates to BWS (Bitwig Studio) to be included in the annual subscription. That's the Bitwig business model, or rather has been since 2014 until a couple of days ago.

People bought/renewed the subscription as usual during a previous sale in combination with U-He expecting "all included" for 12 months... and out of nowhere Bitwig released these extra add-ons very much not included in what they had just paid.

There are four big points here:

1) Whether these add-ons are BWS feature updates or not. The simple fact is that, on a technical level, the are by all intents and purposes BWS features. Whether a judge will consider them separate products is another matter.

2) Whether Bitwig was legally allowed to charge for add-ons or not. I'm not a lawyer but considering the post-changes in the marketing material and the EULA it doesn't look like they could actually do this.

3) Regardless of the technicality and legality of all this, users expect all BWS content to be included in the subscription. The marketing material said so very clearly and that's how it has been since 2014. Most importantly, Bitwig never made any effort to challenge this assumption.

4) Bitwig went on with the U-He sale, well knowing what people expected, and decided to release the paid add-ons after they got the cash.


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## Pier (Oct 7, 2022)

Comments per day on the r/bitwig subreddit


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> The issue is that users expect all updates to BWS (Bitwig Studio) to be included in the annual subscription. That's the Bitwig business model, or rather has been since 2014 until a couple of days ago.
> 
> People bought/renewed the subscription as usual during a previous sale in combination with U-He expecting "all included" for 12 months... and out of nowhere Bitwig released these extra add-ons very much not included in what they had just paid.
> 
> ...


I mean I get some people are outraged. Again I'm not a part of the culture of bitwig pre-scandal, so this format of business has been fine to me within the reasonable application in other DAWs (excluding pro tools). The only thing I would take issue with is the idea that the user expectations somehow invalidate what they actually agreed to with the EULA. Not all user expectations are reasonable.

Either way, I hope there is a satisfactory resolution for all parties involved.


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## outland (Oct 7, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> The only thing I would take issue with is the idea that the user expectations somehow invalidate what they actually agreed to with the EULA. Not all user expectations are reasonable.
> 
> Either way, I hope there is a satisfactory resolution for all parties involved.


Forgive me, but I'm not sure if anyone has posted the EULA itself in this thread, and yet, it is exactly that about which there is disagreement. Here are the applicable passages from Bitwig's EULA which came with Bitwig Studio 4.3.8. There is no question, actually, that they are, in fact, breaking their own contract with their users prior to 4.3.9. Anyone suggesting otherwise is just not reading the contract or is being purposefully ignorant. Below is printed the entire section of the EULA concerning the "scope" of the agreement. Note especially point 1.4 below:

(BOQ, with emphasis appropriate to the point being made)

II. Bitwig Studio Final Version (“Final Version”)

1. Scope

1.1. This EULA applies to the following editions of the Final Version that are available, in the latest release respectively: “Demo”, “Trial”, “Standard”, “EDU”, “Standard Site”, “EDU Site”, “NFR”, „16-Track“ and „8-Track“. Whilst each edition equips the User with the same software, the editions vary as regards both to the scope of functions activated and the rights of use granted under this EULA.

1.2. This EULA also applies for bug fix updates, provided they are made available to the User by Bitwig GmbH. Bitwig GmbH is under no obligation however to make any bug fix updates available to the User.

1.3. This EULA also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions in all editions except the Demo Edition. Without purchasing a license for a paid version of Bitwig Studio, the Demo and Trial Edition’s scope of functions cannot be extended by means of upgrades. The scope of functions of the other editions can be extended by means of upgrades. Upgrades are provided under a separate contractual agreement: they are not covered by the contractual agreement under which the User receives the Final Version. This still applies even if the upgrade is a new version of the Final Version (e.g. V 2.0).

1.4. *This EULA also applies for separate Sound-Packs and Add-Ons. Sound-Packs and Add-Ons provide additional audio content and/or features to be used with the Final Version.*

(EOQ)

Nota bene: Bitwig has described Spectral Suite as an "add-on;" this is not an "interpretation" of the packages forced by an outside agency with no connection to the company. Two quotes, the first from the ad page for Spectral Suite, the second from the official explanation of the change in business model on the Bitwig site:

(With emphasis appropriate to the point being made for each of these)

(BOQ)

*Spectral Suite is the very first add-on for Bitwig Studio, and it's available now with an introductory price of 79 USD/EUR.*

(EOQ)

(BOQ)

Why add-ons on top of the 12-month upgrade plan?
Core features of Bitwig Studio will continuously be developed as part of the 12-month upgrade plan. Highly specialized features, like devices or additional content such as presets and sound libraries, will occasionally be developed as *add-ons*. This way, we can keep the upgrade plan affordable while giving you the choice to purchase specific *add-on* features that enhance your workflow.

Will I still get feature updates as part of my 12-month upgrade plan?
Yes, you will. Since releasing Bitwig Studio 4.0 in July 2021, we have released 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 Updates, all with significant feature additions. And more is on the way! Sign up to our newsletter here to be among the first to find out what's next.

(EOQ)

While perhaps some of the responses have been strong, it is the type of reaction one is likely to see when one knows they are being swindled (for whatever reason or motivation.)

Using Bitwig's own wording, it is clear that they have broken their contract with us, their userbase. There is no debate about this, even from Bitwig's perspective if they are willing to be honest about it.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 7, 2022)

outland said:


> 1.4. *This EULA also applies for separate Sound-Packs and Add-Ons. Sound-Packs and Add-Ons provide additional audio content and/or features to be used with the Final Version.*


I’m not trying to cause a scene but cherry-picking a clause from the EULA while ignoring what the EULA itself is meant to stipulate is kinda the core misunderstanding here. The EULA is the agreement by which the user understands and agrees to the terms of how they can use the software they purchased.

It’s stated in later clauses about restrictions and permissions about sampling, recording other use cases as well as open source use and distribution of a license to other users.

In my interpretation the clause people keep referencing only states that those same terms apply to the final version, the upgrade, and add-ons. The ways in which any of those aspects of the final software are used and licensed are subject to the same conditions. It does agree that users are getting 12 months of upgrades but does not state that upgrades and add-ons are equally guaranteed. Hence the upgrade portion of the EULA does not include add-ons specifically.

really the core of this issue depends on how a court would view this exact point, so until someone forces it to that point I can only say EULA is often misinterpreted by these communities when companies do things users don’t like. They often assume the EULA protects them, when most times its
designed to protect the company.


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## outland (Oct 7, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> I’m not trying to cause a scene but cherry-picking a clause from the EULA while ignoring what the EULA itself is meant to stipulate is kinda the core misunderstanding here. The EULA is the agreement by which the user understands and agrees to the terms of how they can use the software they purchased.


The "scope" is exactly what it means: "what is covered" in the EULA.

I have quoted the entire contents of the EULA section on the scope. Hence, this is not "cherry-picking." Your interpretation notwithstanding, the meaning is entirely clear and refreshingly devoid of legalese.

Respectfully put, while neither of us assuredly is a lawyer (and it does increasingly look like the courts will indeed be called on to sort this out,) if language has any meaning at all, what is referenced beyond the scope are conditions that must be met before any possible justifiable mitigation (yet not really the correct term as potentiality of conditions does not imply the intrinsic or actual existence of those conditions) can be inferred. This would apply on a case-by-case basis, but is nothing that the basic user, not meeting those conditions, would have to be concerned about: i.e., the wording of the "scope" remains in force and there is nothing stated that would objectively cause one to believe otherwise. The EULA states clearly that it "*also applies for separate Sound-Packs and Add-Ons." *Perhaps, you are in question about what a final version is for software; this may indeed be the route that Bitwig's lawyers are likely to take, but legally it is likely to be determined that a "final version" is any version of Bitwig sold/licensed as a product to the consumer; hence, any update or upgrade that is sold would be a "final product." This is not likely, in that situation, to be a phrase to give Bitwig any real solace in the final analysis.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 7, 2022)

outland said:


> The "scope" is exactly what it means: "what is covered" in the EULA.
> 
> I have quoted the entire contents of the EULA section on the scope. Hence, this is not "cherry-picking." Your interpretation notwithstanding, the meaning is entirely clear and refreshingly devoid of legalese.
> 
> Respectfully put, while neither of us assuredly is a lawyer (and it does increasingly look like the courts will indeed be called on to sort this out,) if language has any meaning at all, what is referenced beyond the scope are conditions that must be met before any possible justifiable mitigation (yet not really the correct term as potentiality of conditions does not imply the intrinsic or actual existence of those conditions) can be inferred. This would apply on a case-by-case basis, but is nothing that the basic user, not meeting those conditions, would have to be concerned about: i.e., the wording of the "scope" remains in force and there is nothing stated that would objectively cause one to believe otherwise. The EULA states clearly that it "*also applies for separate Sound-Packs and Add-Ons." *Perhaps, you are in question about what a final version is for software; this may indeed be the route that Bitwig's lawyers are likely to take, but legally it is likely to be determined that a "final version" is any version of Bitwig sold/licensed as a product to the consumer; hence, any update or upgrade that is sold would be a "final product." This is not likely, in that situation, to be a phrase to give Bitwig any real solace in the final analysis.


Well I look forward to how this all plays out


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## Technostica (Oct 7, 2022)

I am working on a multi part composition called Spectral Suite. 
It's about how corporate incompetence and arrogance led to the gutting of a company, which left it as a ghost of its former self. 
I am using Ableton Live.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 7, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> Well I look forward to how this all plays out



Francisco Partners, perhaps. 🙄


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 7, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Francisco Partners, perhaps. 🙄


Is that a reference I should understand?


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 7, 2022)

One difference between Studio One addonsand the ones here is that all S1 addon are not installed unless you install them. Here Bitwig is calling them addons but the latest "update" automativally installs them and prompts you everytime you start Bitwig. If they are not considered essentials parts of the program, they should not be installed. It's bloatware meant to pressure the user to buy them. And Presonus as been open about addons from day one, they have never said you get everything.

I really don't care about who is legally in the right. For me, and I believe most who are outraged about this, it is a matter of ethics.A company be legally in the right but be ethically wrong. Bitwig has built their brand on trust with their users and this latest move is the kind you would expect from a company that has not done so. They have destoryed their trust with their loyal users (you know the ones who have regularly paid for the renewal) and have pretty much destroyed their brand in their process. Are they legally in the right? I don't care. They are not the same company as they were a month ago.

This is the same kind of unethical thing many other companies push for example 8Dio with their sales of their V8P things they put on sale and release a month after people have bought them on sale for a much lower price. They have the right the do so, but ethically it is so wrong.

Come to think of it, we may have been jaded about Bitwig before this. If memory serves me correct they have had sales that promised additional things to NEW users, and not giving them to the old loyals (please correct me if my memory serves me wrong). Maybe webhave missed the signs of their lack of ethics.


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## outland (Oct 7, 2022)

Kuusniemi said:


> One difference between Studio One addonsand the ones here is that all S1 addon are not installed unless you install them. Here Bitwig is calling them addons but the latest "update" automativally installs them and prompts you everytime you start Bitwig.


A techie told me Thursday that this was a bug and that it would be fixed in the next update. Today's update (4.3.10) corrected the notice issue today.


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 8, 2022)

outland said:


> A techie told me Thursday that this was a bug and that it would be fixed in the next update. Today's update (4.3.10) corrected the notice issue today.


It's good that they fixed it. But to me that kind of bug was a little too convenient and personally I at the moment don't have much trust that it was not originally intended to not be a pressuring prompt that now was remo wd becauuse of the outrage from users. Hopefully my gut feeling is wrong, there have been too many shady players around on the history of music software.


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## Markrs (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> Is that a reference I should understand?


They are the investors behind Native Instrument, iZotope and Plugin Alliance all of which is now one company called Soundwide


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## DoubleTap (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> as someone who considered using bitwig while being a current studio one user....Maybe I missed the bandwagon, but I don't get the outrage.


I didn’t get the outrage either to start with. I use Live Suite, and I’ve been tempted by a few of the Packs. This spectral suite just looked like a version of a pack. But it’s the Upgrade model that makes a big psychological difference to customers and I reckon it has become a bit of a millstone around their necks. 

I don’t expect any substantial improvements to Live, except things like Apple Silicon compatibility, but they do update it anyway. But for Bitwig the upgrade plan costs about two thirds of upgrading from Live 10 to 11 just for one year. And actually I think it’s counterproductive. The 12 month deadline creates a FOMO which means that people feel like it’s an important decision whether to start the licence or not, when is the best time - it encourages people to have a strategy for getting value for money. It becomes a big deal for customers, whereas for me a Live update is a just nice surprise, usually.

And that also means that Bitwig needs to deliver vfm over the year. Bug fixing won’t cut it so they need to add new stuff - easy to start with but now it’s a mature product it’s start to bloat. They have two choruses, two flangers, four EQs and four delays I think. It puts them under pressure to deliver new stuff when maybe they don’t need to from a sales/marketing point of view, which means when they do want to tell a new story - “look at how great we’ve just made Bitwig!” - they have less in the tank. In contrast, Live can say “look we improved Chorus and Flanger” and people won’t be judging whether not now is the time to shell out $150. They use other marketing tools to keep people interested.

Basically it’s bad psychology and it’s similar to why some people don’t like subscriptions because it creates this mental pressure for customers to feel they need to get vfm. Fact is that someone with Live 10 and Bitwig Studio without an upgrade plan, or maybe even Komplete 13, is basically in the same position. But I expect they’ll feel like Bitwig is not quite a complete product because the updates stopped at an arbitrary point rather than with a new version.

The irony is that the Spectral Suite looks really good and is quite tempting. It could have been a flagship for 5.0.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

Markrs said:


> They are the investors behind Native Instrument, iZotope and Plugin Alliance all of which is now one company called Soundwide


Ah I see. I suppose the implication of that user was that my stance aligns me with the investors?

I suppose it’s fatigue from all the moaning these forums are filled with lately about how some business decision a developer made is screwing over the users. Meanwhile it mostly seems like another overblown expression of FOMO.

This happened when studio one added a subscription service. Every one anti-subscription called it unfair to loyal supporters that there was a tier of users who paid to get everything (add-ons included). Meanwhile these add-ons were available for purchase and most of the users didn’t even seem to want them…they just didn’t like the idea that they weren’t getting them while someone else was…

I always find it weird this expression of loss despite no core functionality being removed and most often companies continue to offer consistent quality updates and add-ons with various purchase options to match the needs of consumers.

After all the outrage, is the conclusion that bitwig isn’t worth its upgrade cost? Is it not quality worth its price of entry? If this spectral suite had never been released, was bitwig of such flimsy quality that it was pressing its luck asking people to invest in its most basic functionality and upkeep at the current prices?


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> I didn’t get the outrage either to start with. I use Live Suite, and I’ve been tempted by a few of the Packs. This spectral suite just looked like a version of a pack. But it’s the Upgrade model that makes a big psychological difference to customers and I reckon it has become a bit of a millstone around their necks.
> 
> I don’t expect any substantial improvements to Live, except things like Apple Silicon compatibility, but they do update it anyway. But for Bitwig the upgrade plan costs about two thirds of upgrading from Live 10 to 11 just for one year. And actually I think it’s counterproductive. The 12 month deadline creates a FOMO which means that people feel like it’s an important decision whether to start the licence or not, when is the best time - it encourages people to have a strategy for getting value for money. It becomes a big deal for customers, whereas for me a Live update is a just nice surprise, usually.
> 
> ...


Similar thoughts at the same time it seems. I will say I understand potential shock and being disappointed…but outrage escapes me. Especially as self proclaimed loyal customers suddenly expel conspiracy theories of the company suddenly trying to squeeze wallets dry at the expense of the customer.

Not saying it doesn’t happen..but just a few days earlier this was the underdog DAW trying to do something new and exciting and now it’s the poster child for corporate greed?


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## Per Boysen (Oct 8, 2022)

For the last few months I have been in a process of moving work from other DAWs into Bitwig, for its nifty flow chart options that can make your work faster. But after this, I will change my plan into researching if I can set up those things in Cubase (guess not) or Live (would have to put some extra time into digging up Max4Live devices that can replicate my BWS workflow). I feel like a rat that must leave a sinking ship


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## Kuusniemi (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> Ah I see. I suppose the implication of that user was that my stance aligns me with the investors?
> 
> I suppose it’s fatigue from all the moaning these forums are filled with lately about how some business decision a developer made is screwing over the users. Meanwhile it mostly seems like another overblown expression of FOMO.
> 
> ...


Again the Studio One situation is different. You don't need the subscription to get basic software updates, those you get if you have a license. With Bitwig you pay a hefty sum of money for updates and new features, if you don't buy the renewal you get zero updates.

Also the whole hownthey handled this a big part of the problem. If they had released the Spectral Suite before their last sales push with u-he I don't think people would have been so angry. Now the timing and their responses (or lack or communication) and the whole shebang is just messed up.

For the record I mainly operate in Studio One and an happy with it.


----------



## Lazarus451 (Oct 8, 2022)

I have been very vocal about this in various forums and Twitter. And I don't even use Bitwig. Well, after writing some negative comments I took few beers and guess what happened? Yes, I bought Bitwig


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> asking people to invest in its most basic functionality and upkeep at the current prices?


I'm a rather new BW user and don't have a clear understanding of the whole history of development, but what I did picked up and are finding out myself is that for years, customers are paying for development of the basic features of the DAW. A few of those are still not available, even though the official wishlist is full of them and competing DAWs do offer those features.

Now, those customers found out the yearly upgrade payments have gone to add-ons which are not a part of these basic functions people are waiting for, and they have to pay for them to boot. That just doesn't sit right.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Now, those customers found out the yearly upgrade payments have gone to add-ons which are not a part of these basic functions people are waiting for, and they have to pay for them to boot. That just doesn't sit right.


that's an interesting take. I can see where this upgrade plan is not quite clear. This type of upgrade plan turns me off from pro tools and waves (i refuse to use them). I suppose given users don't know how many upgrades they're paying for, and what they're supposed to get, it's open season for speculation.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> that's an interesting take. I can see where this upgrade plan is not quite clear. This type of upgrade plan turns me off from pro tools and waves (i refuse to use them). I suppose given users don't know how many upgrades they're paying for, and what they're supposed to get, it's open season for speculation.


And that's part of the "trust" thing people are talking about. You do the yearly payment because the developer has earned your trust, both with what the product does now and what they publicly state about putting that money to developing the DAW. These payments guarantee all new features will be free for those who.payed the upkeep. Although there isn't a defined release schedule or even an inclination of what is being developed, the trust they've build over years with a steady flow of useful releases makes up for that. That was until a certain point where people start noticing a few functions that were available for a while in other DAWs weren't available in BW. That, coupled with the fact of the now released payed add-ons tipped the scale in the developer-customer trust relationship. Customers feel betrayed by the fact that the "you annually pay and we provide the features you want for free" trust bond has been broken.

Wherever you stand on this, many customers vocal reaction to the payed add-ons makes it very clear Bitwig has missed the mark, be it in customer relations, marketing, sales or strategy.


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## Crowe (Oct 8, 2022)

I like how the reason for the outrage (being promised access to all addons and upgrades in return for yearly payments and the company then going back on their word) is clear as day and yet there's corpo's here wilfully going *huh really don't get what the fuzz is about.

 *It's not about courts or laws or anything like that. It's about ethical bankruptcy.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 8, 2022)

Crowe said:


> and yet there's corpo's here wilfully going *huh really don't get what the fuzz is about.*



At least one of them has a history of trolling these kinds of threads. I wouldn't pay too much attention.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> And that's part of the "trust" thing people are talking about. You do the yearly payment because the developer has earned your trust, both with what the product does now and what they publicly state about putting that money to developing the DAW. These payments guarantee all new features will be free for those who.payed the upkeep. Although there isn't a defined release schedule or even an inclination of what is being developed, the trust they've build over years with a steady flow of useful releases makes up for that. That was until a certain point where people start noticing a few functions that were available for a while in other DAWs weren't available in BW. That, coupled with the fact of the now released payed add-ons tipped the scale in the developer-customer trust relationship. Customers feel betrayed by the fact that the "you annually pay and we provide the features you want for free" trust bond has been broken.
> 
> Wherever you stand on this, many customers vocal reaction to the payed add-ons makes it very clear Bitwig has missed the mark, be it in customer relations, marketing, sales or strategy.


Fair enough. That broader view of bitwig’s business model seems like it was bound to lead to this eventually. Again, I hope satisfactory resolutions are found for all involved. It’s sad. I was very curious about bitwig but seeing its current upgrade model, I don’t think I care for that. For work purposes, I much prefer not having to worry about upgrade plans.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I like how the reason for the outrage (being promised access to all addons and upgrades in return for yearly payments and the company then going back on their word) is clear as day and yet there's corpo's here wilfully going *huh really don't get what the fuzz is about.
> 
> *It's not about courts or laws or anything like that. It's about ethical bankruptcy.


"Corpo"? Ok cyberpunk

I just dont care because more than the philosophical debates about brand loyalty, as someone who has a business dependent on stable services, the only thing I care about is if the DAW does what it's supposed to do when I need it to.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> "Corpo"? Ok cyberpunk
> 
> I just dont care because more than the philosophical debates about brand loyalty, as someone who has a business dependent on stable services, the only thing I care about is if the DAW does what it's supposed to do when I need it to.


Apart from all this, if the current feature set works for you, there is no need the pay the yearly upgrade until there is another release you want or need. For what it offers now, Bitwig suits my needs perfectly at the moment.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Apart from all this, if the current feature set works for you, there is no need the pay the yearly upgrade until there is another release you want or need. For what it offers now, Bitwig suits my needs perfectly at the moment.


Given how a lot of people talk about upgrade costs I can see how that upgrade plan is a feature, not a bug for some.
Some know where their system is stable and don’t care to upgrade beyond that.

There are no perfect answers here and expectations and communication are clearly an issue here. Still to bigwigs credit as an outside user it looks like a truly intriguing and unique DAW.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 8, 2022)

Not to pile on, I couldn’t help but notice one of my favourite sound designers made a video sharing his observations on the matter.



(He did a second one).


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## Crowe (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> "Corpo"? Ok cyberpunk
> 
> I just dont care because more than the philosophical debates about brand loyalty, as someone who has a business dependent on stable services, the only thing I care about is if the DAW does what it's supposed to do when I need it to.


"Philosophical debates about brand loyalty"? You're just unable to read then huh.

It's not about philosophy. It's about another company breaking their promises.

There's little more frustrating than people defending businesses in bad practices (or shit in general) just because it doesn't affect them. Businesses don't need defending.

I'm glad Cyberpunk gave us a word for this. We are already here, after all.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

Crowe said:


> "Philosophical debates about brand loyalty"? You're just unable to read then huh.
> 
> It's not about philosophy. It's about another company breaking their promises


Already established with another user that we disagree on what promises were made. User expectations are not always reasonable and as the posted video above shows, customers are assuming they know what the product costs to make and upkeep based on what they’re paying for it. There is this assumption that the $170 they pay times an assumed number of loyal users is paying the bills enough for them to design new tools that they’re then double charging users for. There’s an assumption that the upgrade cost plus an assumed number of users is keeping bitwig in the black. Maybe they are, but the user really has no information to make that determination. All they know is what they pay and what they feel entitled to for that fee. 

In other professions, it’s like the “I pay taxes so you work for me” arguments for government employees or when artists are harassed in private by fans who feel their loyalty and purchase of products entitle them to 24/7 unrestricted access. Users have a lot of emotional responses to business and marketing. I can get why people are upset, but that does not mean I think they’re right. 

Sorry I just disagree. I disagree with the premise and I disagree with this “we were so loyal, you backstabbing bastards” argument because it seems like, with one miscommunication, all these "loyal" users had their pitchforks at the ready. It seems more emotional than rational.


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## Pier (Oct 8, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Not to pile on, I couldn’t help but notice one of my favourite sound designers made a video sharing his observations on the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> (He did a second one).



The second part


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Oct 8, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Apart from all this, if the current feature set works for you, there is no need the pay the yearly upgrade until there is another release you want or need. For what it offers now, Bitwig suits my needs perfectly at the moment.


If you want / need to use Bitwig support, you need to have an active upgrade plan.

Though personally I haven't found them to be helpful. Even when I was trying to get a free plugin to work in Bitwig, they couldn't be bothered to try it out themselves. (Even worse when I was trying to get Slide/Timbre on the Seaboard Block to work properly in Bitwig---Roli support told me to ask Bitwig support, and Bitwig support told me to ask Roli support, and so on... until I figured it out myself at random.) Most help they've been able to offer is essentially sorry, Bitwig just sucks at that right now (... and it still hasn't been fixed). I renewed my upgrade plan partly to ask support about an issue (that various forums couldn't resolve), partly to get XO for free... though in retrospect it was probably a mistake. Wish I'd held out to get Bazille instead, but then again I have so many synths already....


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 8, 2022)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> If you want / need to use Bitwig support, you need to have an active upgrade plan.


Good point and sorry to hear about your experience with support. I had the same experience with Presonus for some S1 issues I had. Not every company is good in supporting their customers.


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## outland (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> Well I look forward to how this all plays out


In the final analysis, of course, I do as well; the courts (as it appears likely) will have to decide this and we, as citizens of our respective countries, will abide their decision (someone on another forum seems to be advocating utilizing cracked copies of Bitwig in order to get the use of Spectral Studio. In my view this is unconscionable and certainly not an ethical course of action under any circumstances.) 

I do want to thank you for the exchange; while I disagree with your interpretation of the EULA in question, I appreciate your ability to keep this all in the realm of courteous discourse. 

I, as you have probably suspected, am not outraged by Bitwig's behavior; I am somewhat disappointed in a business sense, but then again, ethics in business are extremely "fluid" currently. One can let it upset one's perspective, or roll with it, planning future acquisitions accordingly. I know I'm not leaving Bitwig anytime soon. I probably will purchase Spectral Suite, while hoping that the courts force Bitwig to honor its commitment as outlined in the EULA. This action may be seen as acquiescing to unethical behavior by some, but I'm not sure this is enough of an issue to necessitate the other changes in music production/composition that further action would seem to engender.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 8, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> Well I look forward to how this all plays out


Francisco Partners, perhaps. 


chocobitz825 said:


> Ah I see. I suppose the implication of that user was that my stance aligns me with the investors?


Not at all. I was merely pointing out it may be a sign Bitwig is in financial trouble and/or a last-ditch effort to bolster revenues in order to entice an investment firm such as Francisco Partners.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 8, 2022)

Did anyone happen to catch VT & FlexE's Bitwig Comedy Hour? 🙄


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 8, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Did anyone happen to catch VT & FlexE's Bitwig Comedy Hour? 🙄


the comments were definitely a comedy.


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## machinesworking (Oct 9, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> Already established with another user that we disagree on what promises were made. User expectations are not always reasonable


 You're making a lot of assumptions based on a limited knowledge of what happened, what was implied, what literally was the model. Bitwig have an "Update Plan", previous to the paid spectral suite that has everyone upset, _*every embedded plug in and FX Bitwig released was included in the Update Plan*. _The wording of the EULA (which they changed at the same time that they announced the spectral plug ins, a bad look on it's own), be dammed, the fact is their actual policy changed, and they did nothing to lesson the impact of that. People very righteously assumed they were paying for a full package, synths and samplers, an entire ecosystem in the Grid, was added as part of your Update Plan. This wasn't cheap BTW, it's a yearly cost of $130-170 depending on when you buy, compared to other DAWs this is a very expensive upkeep program, but the initial cost of Bitwig at $399 is reasonable compared to around $800 for Live Suite. 
Here's the clincher though, it's probably not that Bitwig are greed pigs, someone pointed out they made no profit last year, hard to grow a business if all the money goes to paychecks. So they might not be doing that well financially. Their core base is loyal, it wouldn't have been an uproar if they just flatly admitted they needed an influx of money, but they didn't do that, they changed their business model mid stream, with an Update Plan sale right before the change. People are absolutely right to be upset, I haven't seen any audio software company fail at this level, ever really, and that's saying a lot, it's a crazy business. 

Again, pouring over the EULA or holding out that it can be interpreted in one way or another is a straw man, if the average person believed that you were to get every embedded plug in with an Update Plan, you're disingenuous at best, and a con artist at worst.


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## machinesworking (Oct 9, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Did anyone happen to catch VT & FlexE's Bitwig Comedy Hour? 🙄


I caught about 5 minutes of it and realized it was two shills mocking people for being upset. Again, influencers are garbage, I don't understand why people watch them? I like tutorial videos but too many are more about how kewl the presenter is and are just marketing for a product rather than any real dive into a program. 

I attend weakly webinars for MOTU Digital Performer, and a paid representative from MOTU still does not do half as much "look what I can do!" nonsense that influencers do. It's actually going over specific features of the DAW in detail rather than some sort of sales pitch. What a strange world we live in when actual company representatives are less walking advertisements for a product than self driven personality promoters on YouTube?


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 9, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> You're making a lot of assumptions based on a limited knowledge of what happened, what was implied, what literally was the model. Bitwig have an "Update Plan", previous to the paid spectral suite that has everyone upset, _*every embedded plug in and FX Bitwig released was included in the Update Plan*. _The wording of the EULA (which they changed at the same time that they announced the spectral plug ins, a bad look on it's own), be dammed, the fact is their actual policy changed, and they did nothing to lesson the impact of that. People very righteously assumed they were paying for a full package, synths and samplers, an entire ecosystem in the Grid, was added as part of your Update Plan. This wasn't cheap BTW, it's a yearly cost of $130-170 depending on when you buy, compared to other DAWs this is a very expensive upkeep program, but the initial cost of Bitwig at $399 is reasonable compared to around $800 for Live Suite.
> Here's the clincher though, it's probably not that Bitwig are greed pigs, someone pointed out they made no profit last year, hard to grow a business if all the money goes to paychecks. So they might not be doing that well financially. Their core base is loyal, it wouldn't have been an uproar if they just flatly admitted they needed an influx of money, but they didn't do that, they changed their business model mid stream, with an Update Plan sale right before the change. People are absolutely right to be upset, I haven't seen any audio software company fail at this level, ever really, and that's saying a lot, it's a crazy business.
> 
> Again, pouring over the EULA or holding out that it can be interpreted in one way or another is a straw man, if the average person believed that you were to get every embedded plug in with an Update Plan, you're disingenuous at best, and a con artist at worst.


I take it that most of this is just people wanting to feel validated in their rage because every person who states the reasonable point that the EULA is not a guarantee of service to the user, but rather an agreement of authorized terms of use for the end user, gets called a shill. the EULA does not care about what you think you deserve. 

be disappointed, be angry, take your money and run somewhere else...thats all fine...it still doesn't make you right about the claim that bitwig was running some fraud or pulling a fast one over its supporters. Hell, none of these supporters can even say with certainty that the money they spent on upgrade plans was applied to the add-ons at the expense of work done on upgrading the base software. you literally have no proof that anything was actually lost by the inclusion of this add-on... an add-on which again, most people don't even seem to want.

For real, assuming you could look beyond the controversy, and a $79 spectral suite became available, would you buy it? is it that vital to you? it is as simple as people say...if you don't like add-ons don't buy them. If the add-on business is a massive failure, they'd ditch it. And just to add again, the add-ons took NOTHING away from the base software. You still have an updated, fully functional daw. I'll step away after this because I can only say it so many times. I get disappointed, but I do not get the rage and accusations. It's not that big a deal.


I'll lead by example and get back to mastering an album. I should be working instead of engaging in this drama.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 9, 2022)

3DC said:


> A EULA specifies in detail the rights and restrictions which apply to the use of the software.
> 
> In short your comment is BS - with all due respect of course.




…is my English bad or is it crazy pills or something?

That’s the whole point. The EULA describes the rights of the user for how they are able to use the licensed software which applies to the final software, upgrades AND add-ons. The terms and restrictions you the user agree to by purchasing and using it.

It does not specifically say you are entitled to add-ons. If it’s not specifically listed as such (and just not loosely considered referenced by another clause) then you have no firm ground to assume you have a right that is not clearly spelled out as such.

If a court disagrees, cool. 🤷🏾‍♂️ I really don’t care about the issue that much. I’m just mostly impressed by how aggressive and rude people are toward anyone with a contrary opinion.


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## Crowe (Oct 9, 2022)

Funnily enough, it's just you we are 'rude' to. I wonder what that means.


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## machinesworking (Oct 9, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> I take it that most of this is just people wanting to feel validated in their rage because every person who states the reasonable point that the EULA is not a guarantee of service to the user, but rather an agreement of authorized terms of use for the end user, gets called a shill. the EULA does not care about what you think you deserve.
> 
> be disappointed, be angry, take your money and run somewhere else...thats all fine...it still doesn't make you right about the claim that bitwig was running some fraud or pulling a fast one over its supporters. Hell, none of these supporters can even say with certainty that the money they spent on upgrade plans was applied to the add-ons at the expense of work done on upgrading the base software. you literally have no proof that anything was actually lost by the inclusion of this add-on... an add-on which again, most people don't even seem to want.
> 
> ...


It's like you didn't read what I wrote at all. 

The nature of their business model changed drastically with the addition of paid embedded content. The wording of what the Update Plan included in their advertising was changed, this is because it's obvious that for the last couple years, everyone has assumed that the Update Plan covered all embedded plug ins. Whether people are not reading lawyer ease level wording of the EULA is not half as important as the advertisements and actual yearly results, which were that all embedded content in Bitwig developed by Bitwig, was included. 

It's not now, and being a pedant, going into the nitty gritty of the EULA to find out whether or not who the hell cares was legal, is pointless. There was an agreement in place that an expensive yearly plan got you access to their content, this was made real by every update they had until now, they changed that overnight. 

No one should care if they worded the agreement to make sure they had a back door, it's painfully obvious that most people were fooled by it. That's a bad way to run a business. Plus, I think anyone who uses Bitwig, a sound designers DAW would appreciate spectral plug ins, where your getting this opinion that no one wanted them from is IMO the same place that seems to miss entirely that everyone almost, thought the update plan covered all embedded plug ins, until it didn't. No one wants to be forced to pay for them out of the blue when the written advertisements implied and the facts pointed to, all Bitwig updates being included in the Update Plan.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 9, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Funnily enough, it's just you we are 'rude' to. I wonder what that means.


Yeah, I’m sure polarity, Benn Jordan, and Venus theory have loved the warm community vibe as well. 🙄



machinesworking said:


> It's like you didn't read what I wrote at all.
> 
> The nature of their business model changed drastically with the addition of paid embedded content. The wording of what the Update Plan included in their advertising was changed, this is because it's obvious that for the last couple years, everyone has assumed that the Update Plan covered all embedded plug ins. Whether people are not reading lawyer ease level wording of the EULA is not half as important as the advertisements and actual yearly results, which were that all embedded content in Bitwig developed by Bitwig, was included.
> 
> ...


I get being upset, but marketing isn't inherently a binding agreement...the EULA is. Even the EULA specifies that upgrades can fall under a separate agreement if I recall correctly. So we're back to arguing about expectations vs. legally agreed-upon terms.

It is what it is. I honestly feel both sides look terrible in all of this. Poor communication from bitwig, for sure, but a rabid response from self-proclaimed loyalists is also a poor look as well. It's all very petty.


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## grabauf (Oct 9, 2022)




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## allen-garvey (Oct 9, 2022)

Reaction video from Venus Theory and Benn Jordan


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## Crowe (Oct 9, 2022)

allen-garvey said:


> Reaction video from Venus Theory and Benn Jordan



Wow. Ben is amazingly hypocritical. Did not see that coming.


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## Crowe (Oct 9, 2022)

3DC said:


> Not a fan of both of them. Great musicians and cool guys of course but when it comes to business practice and laws they spread really bad misinformation - with good intent.
> 
> Benn made a video about Behringer "shady" business practice of "copying" products completely ignoring the fact that the company doesn't do anything illegal and it has ALL licences in place for it "shady" business.
> 
> You can't bitch about expired patents, intellectual property from deceased companies, OEM deals and open source exploitation. He was very, very lucky Behringer didn't sue him for defamation.


Yeah, it's really weird. The man makes video after video criticizing companies for shitty practices but then chooses specifically this one to go "What, aren't you going to go make any music this week? Go do something useful". The double standard feels like whiplash.


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## Pier (Oct 9, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Did anyone happen to catch VT & FlexE's Bitwig Comedy Hour? 🙄


What happened?


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## Pier (Oct 9, 2022)

allen-garvey said:


> Reaction video from Venus Theory and Benn Jordan



They removed the video...


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## PZO (Oct 9, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> The EULA describes the rights of the user for how they are able to use the licensed software


The EULA defines the software you are licensed to use, in addition to all of the usual restrictions and carve outs on that use. The Scope section (which is the scope for the entire contract) clearly defines the term Upgrades. It doesn’t say “for purposes of this section only”



chocobitz825 said:


> It does not specifically say you are entitled to add-ons


Yes, it specifically does. In Section 2.5


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## Pier (Oct 9, 2022)




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## Pier (Oct 9, 2022)

BTW it doesn't seem like Bitwig is in financial trouble.

Their finances are public record in Germany.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 9, 2022)

3DC said:


> Not a fan of both of them. Great musicians and cool guys of course but when it comes to business practice and laws they spread really bad misinformation - with good intent.
> 
> Benn made a video about Behringer "shady" business practice of "copying" products completely ignoring the fact that the company doesn't do anything illegal and it has ALL licences in place for it "shady" business.
> 
> You can't bitch about expired patents, intellectual property from deceased companies, OEM deals and open source exploitation. He was very, very lucky Behringer didn't sue him for defamation.



Did you happen to see Jordan's Native Instruments roast while promoting Falcon? He had no problem tearing NI to shreds and even condoning software piracy in response when his computer crashed and claimed to have lost access to $25K worth of Kontakt libs. 🙄


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## Alchemedia (Oct 9, 2022)

Pier said:


> They removed the video...



In retrospect they apparently realized how juvenile, unprofessional, insulting and inappropriate it was. They should both be embarrassed.


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## Dirtgrain (Oct 9, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> In retrospect they apparently realized how juvenile, unprofessional, insulting and inappropriate it was. They should both be embarrassed.


Also maybe how damaging it was to their image--how it might affect their Youtube numbers down the line.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 9, 2022)

Dirtgrain said:


> Also maybe how damaging it was to their image--how it might affect their Youtube numbers down the line.



Indeed, it will effect their credibility with both their minions and potential business partners.


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## machinesworking (Oct 9, 2022)

PZO said:


> The EULA defines the software you are licensed to use, in addition to all of the usual restrictions and carve outs on that use. The Scope section (which is the scope for the entire contract) clearly defines the term Upgrades. It doesn’t say “for purposes of this section only”
> 
> 
> Yes, it specifically does. In Section 2.5


 Yeah I don't think he cares, he's just here for the argument, and the feeling of perceived martyrdom he craves. I'm being rude I guess, but he admitted to not having the big picture or using the software at first, but still held out a contrary opinion. What do you do with that?


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## Pier (Oct 9, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Did you happen to see Jordan's Native Instruments roast while promoting Falcon? He had no problem tearing NI to shreds and even condoning software piracy in response when his computer crashed and claimed to have lost access to $25K worth of Kontakt libs. 🙄



He used a cracked version of Kontakt and then he complains the official installer removed his licenses? 

As a professional working on a film score?

I get the frustration that pushed him to find a solution to a NI problem... but JFC. Never mind the legality of it. I would never put cracked software in any of my machines.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 9, 2022)

Pier said:


> He used a cracked version of Kontakt and then he complains the official installer removed his licenses?
> 
> As a professional working on a film score?
> 
> I get the frustration that pushed him to find a solution to a NI problem... but JFC. Never mind the legality of it. I would never put cracked software in any of my machines.



...and actually have the audacity to make a video bragging about it! WTF?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 9, 2022)

In contrast to the aforementioned clown show, Baphometrix and Sound Author have each posted several insightful and intelligent YouTube responses to the Bitwig debacle.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

Pier said:


>



I missed the first stream, but this was more in line with what I was expecting to hear from him. It at least sounds like he's making an attempt to use whatever influence he has with BitWig to voice our concerns and cancel projects with them in the meantime.


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## tempsperdu (Oct 10, 2022)

Regarding the EULA (Sorry if this has already been posted)
Almost regardless of whether any real legal application could be followed through, they actually changed the terms of the EULA prior to this release so that instead of saying 'All Bitwig Software' it becomes 'All Bitwig Studio Software'.
Now I would have thought by their own admission users taking out an update plan before Oct 6th should have that EULA honoured,


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## Pier (Oct 10, 2022)

tempsperdu said:


> Regarding the EULA (Sorry if this has already been posted)
> Almost regardless of whether any real legal application could be followed through, they actually changed the terms of the EULA prior to this release so that instead of saying 'All Bitwig Software' it becomes 'All Bitwig Studio Software'.
> Now I would have thought by their own admission users taking out an update plan before Oct 6th should have that EULA honoured,


Yeah this has been posted before


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

tempsperdu said:


> Regarding the EULA (Sorry if this has already been posted)
> Almost regardless of whether any real legal application could be followed through, they actually changed the terms of the EULA prior to this release so that instead of saying 'All Bitwig Software' it becomes 'All Bitwig Studio Software'.


I think that's separate from the EULA. The actual EULA hasn't changed recently, although I've only been able to check back as far as 4.1.2.


```
PS C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio> Get-ChildItem -Recurse -Filter EULA.txt | Get-FileHash -Algorithm MD5 | select hash,path

Hash                             Path
----                             ----
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.1.2\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.1.6\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.2\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.2.2\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.2.5\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.3\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.3.10\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.3.2\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.3.4\EULA.txt
4B429D7840FECAC1C91462A542852CEB C:\Program Files\Bitwig Studio\4.3.8\EULA.txt
```


----------



## tempsperdu (Oct 10, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah this has been posted before


Sorry, a bit lazy, couldn't be bothered to go through the whole thread after the 95 pages on KVR


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## RogiervG (Oct 10, 2022)

Influencers, like cameron (venus theory) are (i honestly think anyway) also not fair in their opinion. He's essentially hiding away his true feelings, being afraid it would hurt his contact with bigwig. And his image second.
You can hear it clearly, in the way he speaks.. also because he took down the first video about it. (missed that unfortunately). It's fishy at best in my book. I mean he had several days to record the video, plan it etc.. but no, he took down a video (as a regular tuber, it's odd!) he did.

he should:
Either open up and tell what you really feel, no matter the contact/contracts you have with certain company, OR keep quiet all together.
If that company you have contacts with, does odd things, like bigwig does now.. you should point that out, what it does to you as person in an honest way. Screw image, screw contacts you have with a certain company.. seriously, man up, be totally honest towards your audience

Excuse my (perhaps) maybe bad/sloppy English.. not sure how to put it down in writing using proper english


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

tempsperdu said:


> Sorry, a bit lazy, couldn't be bothered to go through the whole thread after the 95 pages on KVR


I'm impressed you made it through the KVR thread. I tried checking out the Bitwig discord on Friday... talk about a shitshow, lol.


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## tempsperdu (Oct 10, 2022)

Mindbullets said:


> I'm impressed you made it through the KVR thread. I tried checking out the Bitwig discord on Friday... talk about a shitshow, lol.


I was pretty much on the KVR thread and Gearspace from the beginning. I've also emailed Bitwig twice and am so acutely surprised I haven't had a response. LOL 
Like most others, I really cannot understand how they can behave in this way and yet put loads of time and energy into CLAP which benefits the whole community.


----------



## PDehnig (Oct 10, 2022)

Pier said:


> He used a cracked version of Kontakt and then he complains the official installer removed his licenses?


I believe he made a case for software piracy after running into issues with his legit version of Kontakt. From what I've seen from Ben Jordan, he only makes a case for software piracy in regards to tone-deaf companies charging a lot of money for an unfinished product, while having terrible customer support. So when you run into issues you're on your own. Personally I agree with him on that, although I'd never pirate audio software myself because pretty much everything is littered with malware (that's the only reason I wouldn't pirate; not some weird sense of morality and/or loyalty towards companies because honestly I've wasted too much money on buggy sample libraries that never get fixed). He doesn't go around advertising software-piracy though.


RogiervG said:


> Influencers, like cameron (venus theory) is also not fair in he's opinion. He's essentially hiding away his true feelings, being afraid it would hurt his contact with bigwig.


Are you Cameron, the actual person? If not, then how can you make a statement like that. Can you somehow look into the minds of people and know exactly what they think?


RogiervG said:


> You can hear it clearly, in the way he speaks..


Ah. My bad, I didn't realize you were a professor in linguistics.

Like, holy shit. I dislike Bitwig's move as well and hope there will be consequences. But the mob-mentality is real. Take a step back and realize that these are human beings like you and I you're talking about.


Lazarus451 said:


> I have been very vocal about this in various forums and Twitter. And I don't even use Bitwig.


This is the quintessential social media user.. jesus fucking christ what a perfectly batshit insane thing to say.


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## RogiervG (Oct 10, 2022)

PDehnig said:


> Are you Cameron, the actual person? If not, then how can you make a statement like that. Can you somehow look into the minds of people and know exactly what they think?
> 
> Ah. My bad, I didn't realize you were a professor in linguistics.
> 
> Like, holy shit. I dislike Bitwig's move as well and hope there will be consequences. But the mob-mentality is real. Take a step back and realize that these are human beings like you and I you're talking about.


That's called knowing how many people operate, knowing how influencers work (underneath) in most cases (especially the bigger ones). That's me not falling into the "he's really honest! he must be with so many followers" mentality which many viewer seems to fall into, defending said influencer, like they are his/her lawyer or bodyguard.
it's a bit like that Britney spears meme "leave <influencer name> alone!"

Also i said: "i honestly think anyway", meaning i am not 100% sure in this case. But it has 8/10 red flags up already, just by looking at the video and his channel. that's more than enough for me, to view at it as i do. And most times my first gut feeling is right in the end.

Also, i can counter your comments just as easily, with the same questions. But what good will that do?

Look, people talk in a certain way when they are carefully picking the words to say (often because of fear of the consequences, like e.g. what i've pointed out in my previous post), with lots of slow speeds and pauses in between words. Also a lot of repeating explaining is a giveaway. It's a known fact, look it up!

Also putting up another video, while deleting the first one (considering he had enough time to think things through in the first place!), should be a red flag of sorts. normally an experienced influencer putting up many videos, doesn't do that, unless there is a huge problem around the corner (image damage? disturbance with the close connection he has with bitwig? my guess: must be something like that).

And it's no secret he has sponsorships, NFR copies etc.. of many things he has. So there is a favorable bias/loyalty towards those companies (which also means less honest venting of opinions in videos when things go south). And that's totally normal too, in a way. But people should be aware of it too.

All in all i find his video too biased towards bitwig (his warm connections with them), he lowers the anger amongst his followers (like those viewer are having a wrong opinion or being overly upset) in a way that is not truely his feeling (i bet he was more harsh in the first video he took down?), and he talks about his relationship with bitwig in a way, he is a bit too close to them to be non biased. Or in other words: he does free himself from getting a disturbed relationship with bitwig, for future sakes. Which only benefits himself.

Anyway.. that's my opinion, you have yours. All fine and well..
His tutorials are good though, no problems there at all.


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## tempsperdu (Oct 10, 2022)

PDehnig said:


> Like, holy shit. I dislike Bitwig's move as well and hope there will be consequences. But the mob-mentality is real. Take a step back and realize that these are human beings like you and I you're talking about.


Seriously, you are asking people who from the looks of it don't consider or realise they are dealing with human beings, to be considered as human beings.
It cuts both ways. From what I can gather, at least some of the people at Bitwig are amiable people, but how they could pull this one and still now ignore what has been possibly the biggest comeback on a music software decision I've ever known isn't doing them or anyone else any favours.


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## Pier (Oct 10, 2022)

PDehnig said:


> I believe he made a case for software piracy after running into issues with his legit version of Kontakt.


I know.

If you read my whole comment I alluded to that when I wrote "I get the frustration that pushed him to find a solution to a NI problem...".

My point was that using cracked software is just stupid as it can get you into all sorts of issues. Losing licenses, getting your passwords stolen, your machine being used as a bitcoin mining rig, your whole machine being deleted, etc. Doing that on a production machine in the middle of project is just ridiculous.


----------



## Pier (Oct 10, 2022)

Someone posted this image on KVR.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

This made me chuckle


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## HeliaVox (Oct 10, 2022)

The thing that gets me about this whole issue isn't so much about what Bitwig did, but it is the response of the mob mentality and anyone who does not share the same views as them. I watched the entire stream with VT and BJ. Did you actually read the comments? There were some scathing personal attacks against both of them. It seems like anytime someone who gets NFR copies made an opinion that didn't go along with the mob, they were instantly labeled a shill. And if no one made a statement, they were labeled a shill. The Bitwig Discord is a mess because instead of making their case once and waiting to see what the response from Bitwig would be, they continued to make disparaging comments over and over and over and over and over........ it's turned into such a negative place, as has most online discussions about Bitwig. I honestly thought the Bitwig community was better than this. But who am I? Probably another shill......


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

Pier said:


> Someone posted this image on KVR.


I'm hopeful about this, actually. They have a chance to make this right, rebuild trust, and let this whole debacle better inform their strategy moving forward. If it sucks, I'll explore other options.


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## venustheory (Oct 10, 2022)

Not planning to get involved any more here but I did want to leave this:


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## Alchemedia (Oct 10, 2022)

tempsperdu said:


> I was pretty much on the KVR thread and Gearspace from the beginning. I've also emailed Bitwig twice and am so acutely surprised I haven't had a response. LOL
> Like most others, I really cannot understand how they can behave in this way and yet put loads of time and energy into CLAP which benefits the whole community.


I emailed Bitwig also the day this went down and have yet to receive a response.


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## tempsperdu (Oct 10, 2022)

HeliaVox said:


> I watched the entire stream with VT and BJ. Did you actually read the comments? There were some scathing personal attacks against both of them. It seems like anytime someone who gets NFR copies made an opinion that didn't go along with the mob, they were instantly labeled a shill. And if no one made a statement, they were labeled a shill.


I didn't watch all of it, probably about half, and to be fair both came over as if they couldn't understand what the fuss was about which then sounded rather condescending.
VT seemed to realise this and pulled the video and has since posted a far more empathetic video where he says he is going to express the grievances to Bitwig.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 10, 2022)

venustheory said:


> Not planning to get involved any more here but I did want to leave this:



"Stay Classy" Cameron.


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## allen-garvey (Oct 10, 2022)

Pier said:


> BTW it doesn't seem like Bitwig is in financial trouble.
> 
> Their finances are public record in Germany.


I'm not an accountant but I was curious about what they make and was looking through their balance sheets for the available years. While it does seem they are profitable and it doesn't look like they have any debt, I don't know if they are technically doing great, as if my understanding is correct they are only making a average profit of around 100,000 Euros a year.

These are the figures I extracted from the available years:


Net Income By Year (Euros)202199,296.312020282,046.952019149,043.362018-28,747.3020171,156,548.732015-267,808.402014107,692.392011-244,9982010-151,162.952009-30,960.29Total1,070,950.80Average107,095.08


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

venustheory said:


> Not planning to get involved any more here but I did want to leave this:



Damn, sorry dude. I was hopeful the Bitwig announcement tomorrow would be good and this whole thing would just blow over. Wish your regular content wasn't getting derailed by this. Looking forward to whatever you're doing next.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 10, 2022)

venustheory said:


> Not planning to get involved any more here but I did want to leave this:



Sorry to hear about the Ferraris. Never got that, Bitwig being German and all.


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## Pier (Oct 10, 2022)

allen-garvey said:


> I don't know if they are technically doing great, as if my understanding is correct they are only making a average profit of around 100,000 Euros a year.


There are many ways to interpret this.

It could very well be they're just growing the team so the profit and the taxes don't grow too much.


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## RogiervG (Oct 10, 2022)

venustheory said:


> Not planning to get involved any more here but I did want to leave this:



hmmm, might i've been wrong in my opinion posted earlier, reading this?


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> hmmm, might i've been wrong in my opinion posted earlier, reading this?


Just saw this, also:


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## Pier (Oct 10, 2022)

venustheory said:


> Not planning to get involved any more here but I did want to leave this:



I thought you were waiting for an official response from Bitwig?

(or maybe you got it and can't say anything because of the NDA...)


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## Mindbullets (Oct 10, 2022)

Pier said:


> I thought you were waiting for an official response from Bitwig?
> 
> (or maybe you got it and can't say anything because of the NDA...)


Not sure how much he's paying attention to this thread, but Benn just said neither of them have heard a peep as of a this afternoon.


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## DoubleTap (Oct 10, 2022)

allen-garvey said:


> I'm not an accountant but I was curious about what they make and was looking through their balance sheets for the available years. While it does seem they are profitable and it doesn't look like they have any debt, I don't know if they are technically doing great, as if my understanding is correct they are only making a average profit of around 100,000 Euros a year.
> 
> These are the figures I extracted from the available years:
> 
> ...




Do you know if the net income is before taxes etc?


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## Kslovelace (Oct 10, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> Influencers, like cameron (venus theory) are (i honestly think anyway) also not fair in their opinion. He's essentially hiding away his true feelings, being afraid it would hurt his contact with bigwig. And his image second.
> You can hear it clearly, in the way he speaks.. also because he took down the first video about it. (missed that unfortunately). It's fishy at best in my book. I mean he had several days to record the video, plan it etc.. but no, he took down a video (as a regular tuber, it's odd!) he did.
> 
> he should:
> ...


To be fair… I watched the original stream… and it was a 2 and a half hour discussion (more like hang out session) that went off topic often. Over the two hours he gave attention to others opinions and expressed how he either agreed or disagreed as the discussion went on. He also made some realizations along the way that changed or influenced his opinion throughout the discussion.

This short clip was the right move. It essentially sums up the 2 hour plus discussion and provides his takeaways. 

Also bear in mind, he is a “business” as a sound designer and influencer. Of course he doesn’t want to intentionally or accidentally burn any bridges along the way and I can’t fault him for that and neither should you. But at a minimum he acknowledges that whatever she shows on stream can be seen as a sales pitch regardless of intent. He also agrees that this was a bad move from bigwig.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 10, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> To be fair… I watched the original stream… and it was a 2 and a half hour discussion (more like hang out session) that went off topic often. Over the two hours he gave attention to others opinions and expressed how he either agreed or disagreed as the discussion went on. He also made some realizations along the way that changed or influenced his opinion throughout the discussion.
> 
> This short clip was the right move. It essentially sums up the 2 hour plus discussion and provides his takeaways.
> 
> Also bear in mind, he is a “business” as a sound designer and influencer. Of course he doesn’t want to intentionally or accidentally burn any bridges along the way and I can’t fault him for that and neither should you. But at a minimum he acknowledges that whatever she shows on stream can be seen as a sales pitch regardless of intent. He also agrees that this was a bad move from bigwig.


It was egotistical, infantile and pointless. The only thing it accomplished was adding insult to injury.


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## Kslovelace (Oct 10, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> It was egotistical, infantile and pointless. The only thing it accomplished was adding insult to injury.


Lol.. ok… and people were mad that he hadn’t said anything until he did. Can’t win them all. At the end of the day you’re barking up the wrong tree. No sure how the influencers are taking the blame now for a corporate division from a separate company. 

Either way, he can’t do anymore than he already had at that point other than totally breaking ties as he did today. But, all these fan boys with hurt feelings are really going to be hurting if bitwig tanks.

All these attacks on their influencers is going to create a gap in the market when they eventually break ties with bitwig. And there are not many bitwig centric influencers in the first place. There needs to be a balance and I strongly believe that is what Cameron was getting at. You all are only going to hurt yourselves in the end. 

My opinion on this move from bitwig is these add ons devalue their business model. And I’ll hold strong to that all the way. But bitwig is not my primary and I would be just fine without it so I have nothing to lose.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 10, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> Lol.. ok… and people were mad that he hadn’t said anything until he did. Can’t win them all. At the end of the day you’re barking up the wrong tree. No sure how the influencers are taking the blame now for a corporate division from a separate company.
> 
> Either way, he can’t do anymore than he already had at that point other than totally breaking ties as he did today. But, all these fan boys with hurt feelings are really going to be hurting if bitwig tanks.
> 
> ...



I'm afraid you're missing the point. Refer to Sound Author and Baphometrix's YouTube videos for _intelligent_ discourse on this matter.


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## Pier (Oct 10, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> Lol.. ok… and people were mad that he hadn’t said anything until he did. Can’t win them all.


Did you watch the deleted stream?

People didn't get mad because they spoke, but because of what was said.

I didn't, but from various people that did (including @Alchemedia here) it was quite disgraceful.


----------



## Kslovelace (Oct 10, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> I'm afraid you're missing the point. Refer to Sound Author and Baphometrix's YouTube videos for _intelligent_ discourse on this matter.


I’m not missing the point and have watched all of their videos. I’m also not saying I disagree as I do agree with the majority of opinions expressed. I also agree with the bind that this puts influencers in. 

But I also understand that there are repercussions to everything we individually or as a community do. And while right now everyone is “trying” to hold bitwig accountable, eventually we will hit a point where we have pushed too far. And while we might solve the immediate issue, we will create far larger problems when this blows over. 

What people need to do is express their opinion and wait. The ball is in Bitwigs court at the moment. Continuing to hunt down anyone who has ever had a stake in bitwigs successes until they break ties with the company is only going to create problems for future development and marketing of the platform down the line.


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## Kslovelace (Oct 10, 2022)

Pier said:


> Did you watch the deleted stream?
> 
> People didn't get mad because they spoke, but because of what was said.
> 
> I didn't, but from various people that did (including @Alchemedia here) it was quite disgraceful.


I did and I’ll simply leave it at you can’t please everyone.


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## outland (Oct 10, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> It was egotistical, infantile and pointless. The only thing it accomplished was adding insult to injury.


I'm glad that Venus Theory posted the short addendum today; Benn's post isn't as helpful, I think (not that it's important on any level what I think of their self-rejoinders.)

I watched the first half-hour or so of the deleted video and turned it off when it became apparent that there was essentially nothing of note that was going to be added to the discussion. I also did not appreciate their noting of the importance of the war in Ukraine in comparison to the insignificance of the Bitwig debate (of course, but just what other parts of our lives is it appropriate to "put on hold" as we wait for that situation to resolve?) or the suggestion to just go "make music" (as if there is not time in the day to also comment on a situation that has the potential to directly affect future music making capabilities.) Mostly, however, the disparaging comments about the gentleman who spoke to two lawyers struck me as particularly mean-spirited. This poster was, as far as I can discern, doing not something over the top, but totally in line with attempting to get to the bottom of the issue in a fairly concrete manner. I imagine (though it was never said) that this individual simply had two friends or family members who happened to be lawyers and perhaps, let's say over dinner, he happened to mention the issue and the two acquaintances listening happened to volunteer taking a gander at the EULA for him. It wouldn't take much time to do so and might go a long way towards helping their friend to be more settled in his own thinking on the issue. It was never mentioned anywhere (that I saw) that the gentleman _paid _two lawyers to look at it. I know I've spoken to my wife about this issue; why is it beyond all consideration that someone might as casually mention this to two friendly acquaintances who happen to be employed as legal counsel?

All of which is to say that, while I am glad that there was an attempt to walk back the initial comments, I am somewhat sorry to see them dissolve their professional relationship with Bitwig. Cameron, I think, however, is a bit too humble when he mentions that he considers himself completely "replaceable;" this is not quite the situation. As an influencer, he does have a group of people that follow him; it comes with the nature of the term. Whoever his followers happen to be will take notice of this change. How large the effect of this change will be is open to debate, of course, but the end result is not likely to be absolutely "nil."


----------



## Alchemedia (Oct 10, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> I did and I’ll simply leave it at *you can’t please everyone.*


True however if that alone were the issue why did they decide to delete the video? 
I agree the ball is in Bitwig's court. Always was. As for influencers:

“Clowns are the pegs on which the circus is hung.” 
"There's a sucker born every minute". 
--PT Barnum


----------



## allen-garvey (Oct 10, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Do you know if the net income is before taxes etc?


That I don't know, as not only is this my first time reading a balance sheet, but I've had to Google translate it and I don't know how different German business law is from the US. Either way though I don't think it would make too much difference given that the amounts are so small. Also things would probably look even worse if the missing years 2012-2013 were added, since Bitwig 1.0 was released in 2014 and the years we have before that were all negative.


----------



## Alchemedia (Oct 10, 2022)

outland said:


> I'm glad that Venus Theory posted the short addendum today; Benn's post isn't as helpful, I think (not that it's important on any level what I think of their rejoinders.)
> 
> I watched the first half-hour or so of the first video and turned it off when it became apparent that there was essentially had nothing of note that was going to be added to the discussion. I also did not appreciate their noting of importance of the war in Ukraine in comparison to the insignificance of the Bitwig debate (just what other parts of our lives is it appropriate to "put on hold" as we wait for that situation to resolve?) or the suggestion to just go "make music" (as if there is not time in the day to also comment on a situation that has the potential to directly affect future music making capabilities.) Mostly, however, the disparaging comments about the gentleman who spoke to two lawyers struck me as particularly mean-spirited. This poster was, as far as I can discern, doing not something over the top, but totally in line with attempting to get to the bottom of the issue in a fairly concrete manner. I imagine (though it was never said) that this individual simply had two friends or family members that happened to be lawyers and perhaps, let's say over dinner, he happened to mention the issue and the two acquaintances listening happened to volunteer taking a gander at the EULA for him. It wouldn't take much time to do so and might go a long way towards helping their friend to be more settled in his own thinking on the issue. It was never mentioned anywhere (that I saw) that the gentleman paid two lawyers to look at it. I know I've spoken to my wife about this issue; why is it beyond all consideration that someone might as casually mention this to two friendly acquaintances who happen to be employed as legal counsel?
> 
> All of which is to say that, while I am glad that there was an attempt to walk back the initial comments, I am somewhat sorry to see them dissolve their professional relationship with Bitwig. Cameron, I think, however, is a bit too humble when he mentions that he considers himself completely "replaceable;" this is not quite the situation. As an influencer, he does have a group of people that follow him; it comes with the nature of the term. Whoever his followers happen to be will take notice of this change. How large the effect of this change will be is open to debate, of course, but the end result is not likely to be absolutely "nil."



I agree that was entirely uncalled for. It was legit intelligent and insightful criticism of the EULA particularly in contrast to Benn's editing Bitwig's website HTML to display in lieu of an apology they were going to repeatedly "punch themselves in the dick".


----------



## Kslovelace (Oct 10, 2022)

outland said:


> I'm glad that Venus Theory posted the short addendum today; Benn's post isn't as helpful, I think (not that it's important on any level what I think of their rejoinders.)
> 
> I watched the first half-hour or so of the deleted video and turned it off when it became apparent that there was essentially nothing of note that was going to be added to the discussion. I also did not appreciate their noting of the importance of the war in Ukraine in comparison to the insignificance of the Bitwig debate (of course, but just what other parts of our lives is it appropriate to "put on hold" as we wait for that situation to resolve?) or the suggestion to just go "make music" (as if there is not time in the day to also comment on a situation that has the potential to directly affect future music making capabilities.) Mostly, however, the disparaging comments about the gentleman who spoke to two lawyers struck me as particularly mean-spirited. This poster was, as far as I can discern, doing not something over the top, but totally in line with attempting to get to the bottom of the issue in a fairly concrete manner. I imagine (though it was never said) that this individual simply had two friends or family members who happened to be lawyers and perhaps, let's say over dinner, he happened to mention the issue and the two acquaintances listening happened to volunteer taking a gander at the EULA for him. It wouldn't take much time to do so and might go a long way towards helping their friend to be more settled in his own thinking on the issue. It was never mentioned anywhere (that I saw) that the gentleman _paid _two lawyers to look at it. I know I've spoken to my wife about this issue; why is it beyond all consideration that someone might as casually mention this to two friendly acquaintances who happen to be employed as legal counsel?
> 
> All of which is to say that, while I am glad that there was an attempt to walk back the initial comments, I am somewhat sorry to see them dissolve their professional relationship with Bitwig. Cameron, I think, however, is a bit too humble when he mentions that he considers himself completely "replaceable;" this is not quite the situation. As an influencer, he does have a group of people that follow him; it comes with the nature of the term. Whoever his followers happen to be will take notice of this change. How large the effect of this change will be is open to debate, of course, but the end result is not likely to be absolutely "nil."


I agree with both sides of this. Cameron did acknowledge the legal comment. He also kinda brushed it off. But, if I remember correctly he brushed it off by saying something along the lines of “but who is sueing, I (Cameron) am not actively seeking legal counsel”. He goes further to discuss the financial side of bringing a civil suit forward. Sure he was dismissive, but it was because just because a law or regulation is broken doesn’t mean the legal world is jumping on it. Someone had to bring the legal suit forward and fund it. Asking your friend lawyers if it is right or wrong doesn’t actually accomplish anything.


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## outland (Oct 10, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> I agree with both sides of this. Cameron did acknowledge the legal comment. He also kinda brushed it off. But, if I remember correctly he brushed it off by saying something along the lines of “but who is sueing, I (Cameron) am not actively seeking legal counsel”. He goes further to discuss the financial side of bringing a civil suit forward. Sure he was dismissive, but it was because just because a law or regulation is broken doesn’t mean the legal world is jumping on it. Someone had to bring the legal suit forward and fund it. Asking your friend lawyers if it is right or wrong doesn’t actually accomplish anything.


Right, but the original poster at KvR made it clear in his comment that he was not using the lawyers (who both noted that their opinions were not to be considered on the record, _per se_; they were speaking only in an informal manner) to instigate a lawsuit. This (at least for me) tended to heighten the inappropriateness of Benn's and Cameron's derisiveness. And I have a feeling that it accomplished exactly that for which the original poster was looking: a sense of what a professional (if informal) opinion on the issue would look like.

Again, really, this is water under the bridge now. I'm glad that the entire first video has been deleted and both men have issued retractions (though Venus Theory's is more of that for which I was looking.)


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## Crowe (Oct 11, 2022)

Whelp.
Tensions are high, there's been bad takes and anyone who has a partnership with Bitwig has been thoroughly fucked. So now, in actuality, *everyone *who uses Bitwig has been fucked.

Maybe take a small step back, and reorient the anger at the company that put everyone in this position.

EDIT: I actually kinda feel bad for at least Cameron in this case. Bitwig was an indie darling that was promising the moon and seemed to deliver and not be attached to any soulless entity. It's not like he didn't actually believe in their integrity. It's the dream to be able to work with companies that aren't just out for profits over all else and this seemed to be that. You have to make a living. Like I said. Everyone has gotten screwed here. Some worse than others.


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## Marcus Millfield (Oct 11, 2022)

Crowe said:


> believe in their integrity


And this right here will be hardest for them to get right again. Reputation damage can ruin your business for good.


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## DoubleTap (Oct 11, 2022)

allen-garvey said:


> That I don't know, as not only is this my first time reading a balance sheet, but I've had to Google translate it and I don't know how different German business law is from the US. Either way though I don't think it would make too much difference given that the amounts are so small. Also things would probably look even worse if the missing years 2012-2013 were added, since Bitwig 1.0 was released in 2014 and the years we have before that were all negative.



Thanks. Do you have a link to the accounts? I think it does make possibly a significant difference because if they have to pay VAT out of that amount then that might make the difference between profit and loss. And I’m just curious anyway :D


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 11, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> I did and I’ll simply leave it at you can’t please everyone.


If I believed in cancel culture, this sounds like it. People have all the right to disagree with what was said and take their viewing hours elsewhere. Same way they can take their money away from bitwig for all that has happened. Much of the discourse has been, “if you have a different opinion, you’re dismissive and totally missing the point, and the only intelligent relevant conversation can come from people who agree with the mob.”

I am absolutely sure there is a legitimate reason for disappointment, but not for outrage, slander and witch hunts.

It’s such a ridiculous shit show and people are just chewing away at what was seemingly a pretty positive community over all this. Perhaps I personally would feel more for this if this outrage wasn’t so common. Happens when products are discontinued, happens when a service adds a subscription service, or changes prices…happens when products are dropped and demo videos are late…happens when developers run a scoring competition with an outcome they don’t agree with. The fatigue from this online community’s outrage is real. 

I hope bitwig resolved this soon for everyone so we can get back to being outraged over something else. Maybe a synth with not enough features…or an overpriced soft synth…or maybe another orchestral libraries with sub-par legato.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 11, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Thanks. Do you have a link to the accounts? I think it does make possibly a significant difference because if they have to pay VAT out of that amount then that might make the difference between profit and loss. And I’m just curious anyway :D


VAT is never part of any gross revenue recognized in a profit & loss statement. For every sales transaction, any VAT will always be recorded as a short term debt (Taxes).


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## fritzmartinbass (Oct 11, 2022)

I emailed Bitwig last week and received this generic response:

_Thanks for getting in touch with us and sharing your feedback on the add-on concept. We take your concerns seriously and we appreciate your support for the program as well as your thoughts on the model.

We are very much committed to maintaining the same pace of updates as we did in the past, so the add-ons will not affect the quality, content or regularity of future updates.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,_


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## fritzmartinbass (Oct 11, 2022)

I wish there was a way to open my Bitwig presets in Live. lol


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## ozonepaul (Oct 11, 2022)

*MAJOR NEWS!!!*






To Our Community
We've had time to reflect on last week's Spectral Suite announcement and the responses from our community. We apologize for how we handled this and want to make this right.

Spectral Suite is now part of Bitwig Studio 4.4, which has an official release date of October 5, 2022. Anyone with a current Upgrade Plan now owns Bitwig Studio 4.4 and the four Spectral Suite devices. We will contact everyone who purchased Spectral Suite to offer a choice of a refund or an extension of their Upgrade Plan.

*Moving forward, all of our Bitwig Studio feature development, including devices, will be covered by the 12-month Upgrade Plan.*

Your support of Bitwig Studio (and us) means more than we can say. Thank you.

Onward and upward,
Your Bitwig Team

https://www.bitwig.com/stories/to-our-community-218/


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## Lazarus451 (Oct 11, 2022)

Lazarus451 said:


> I have been very vocal about this in various forums and Twitter. And I don't even use Bitwig. Well, after writing some negative comments I took few beers and guess what happened? Yes, I bought Bitwig


This turned out good because the price was cheap and Spectral Suite is now included


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## PDehnig (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> If you read my whole comment I alluded to that when I wrote "I get the frustration that pushed him to find a solution to a NI problem...".


Misunderstanding from my side then. It sounded to me like an accusation he's advocating software-piracy, when it's not that black & white.



RogiervG said:


> That's called knowing how many people operate


I don't mean to be rude, but in my opinion you're full of shit. Well... maybe I do mean to be rude.

Comparing smaller Youtube creators who operate in a niche and mainly make educational/ motivational content to international celebrities who have million dollar contracts with brands, yea that's totally sane. You say yourself you're "not 100% sure", which should be enough for you to not throw accusations around; but on the internet it's 'guilty until proven innocent' I guess. VT addresses everything you say in his video. I don't know which video you watched, but in my eyes he's being very transparent, calling out the privilege, the ties to Bitwig, the bias, etc. And yet uses his influence to try and get a response from Bitwig for the community, even though primates like yourself continue with their screaming and kicking. I would love to see you handle a situation like that; and especially see you handle a bunch of strangers on the internet continuously pressuring and shouting at you for something that isn't your fault.
The point here (again) is, these are human beings. They are fallible like you and I. But it seems like people who operate in public spaces aren't allowed to fuck up, so essentially you're stripping their humanity off them. And when you're in that situation, that feels really shitty. So all I'm asking is a little decency and especially some fucking empathy (as in putting oneself into someone else's situation before casting judgement).
For the record, I'm not any better than any of the Twitter warriors by getting involved, so this will be me bowing out of this conversation. Good luck.


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## tempsperdu (Oct 11, 2022)

ozonepaul said:


> *MAJOR NEWS!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think that was about the only thing they could do that restores some kind of confidence.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 11, 2022)

This is awesome.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 11, 2022)

ozonepaul said:


> *MAJOR NEWS!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


mazel tov!


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## fritzmartinbass (Oct 11, 2022)

Awesome!


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## mr.vad0614 (Oct 11, 2022)

Ah man, it looks like I was beaten to it!? 😝 I just received the e-mail announcing the good news of the Spectral Suite being included as part of Bitwig 4.4! 😃 This is awesome, my hats off to Bitwig for considering the community and making this change...🎩 I only uprgraded my plan, a day before the Spectral Suite was released and then sent an e-mail to them of the unfairness of this.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

I personally feel it's a bittersweet announcement.

On one hand Bitwig corrected their mistake and announced there won't be any more paid add-ons. That's great. I'm happy for current subscribers.

But if these new devices have now become v4.4 does this mean Bitwig wasn't working on any new features for v4.4? Will they announce v4.5 shortly with those new features?

I feel they should have elaborated more on their plans for the future.


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## mr.vad0614 (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> I personally feel it's a bittersweet announcement.
> 
> On one hand Bitwig corrected their mistake and announced there won't be any more paid add-ons. That's great. I'm happy for current subscribers.
> 
> ...


I agree with you Pier, my interest is more in the further development of the DAW as opposed to the additional devices all of which are great, but more works needs to be done on the workflow of the DAW itself, especially when it comes to recording in the Clip Launcher as so far from my experience when it comes to recording a loop for however many bars, Bitwig is not able to intelligently workout where it ends and requires you then to edit the loop yourself to set the correct loop points. This Ableton does perfectly, also this may not be the appropriate thread to ask this question, but does anyone know how to set the number of bars in the Clip Launcher before recording, to define the loop point? Forgive the silly question, as I am still learning this DAW being a novice n'all. Cheers all


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

mr.vad0614 said:


> more works needs to be done on the workflow of the DAW itself


Yeah I totally agree. That's the main reason I left Bitwig. The devices are super cool, but many parts of the DAW still need a lot of polish.

This was the perfect opportunity for Bitwig to appease worries about the future (which many users have) and create hype. Maybe they could have said "we're looking at Bitwish for your feature requests" or just simply "in future updates we want to focus on X, Y, Z", or even "v4.5 is coming in a couple of months with X, Y, Z".

They really need a new marketing head


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

3DC said:


> Companies are not allowed to give any forward-looking statements but from what I can understand its business as usual.


Huh? Why not?

Steinberg said they'd release Atmos in a future update even though it was not included in Cubase v12.0.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 11, 2022)

3DC said:


> Companies are not allowed to give any forward-looking statements



I get the impression you don't know what "forward-looking statement" means in this context. 

First, Bitwig is privately owned and not governed by laws affecting publicly quoted companies. Secondly that language in the boilerplate of reports and slides is about delineating a difference between statements that could be interpreted as fact and speculation or aims. Not only is a roadmap is an example of the latter, you get the safe-harbour statement about forward-looking statements up-front to ram it home.


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## ozonepaul (Oct 11, 2022)

mr.vad0614 said:


> I agree with you Pier, my interest is more in the further development of the DAW as opposed to the additional devices all of which are great, but more works needs to be done on the workflow of the DAW itself, especially when it comes to recording in the Clip Launcher as so far from my experience when it comes to recording a loop for however many bars, Bitwig is not able to intelligently workout where it ends and requires you then to edit the loop yourself to set the correct loop points. This Ableton does perfectly, also this may not be the appropriate thread to ask this question, but does anyone know how to set the number of bars in the Clip Launcher before recording, to define the loop point? Forgive the silly question, as I am still learning this DAW being a novice n'all. Cheers all


1. Double click in the click launcher slot you want to record in to create a clip
2. Now in the info tab (on the left hand side, if you don't see it just press i) of this launcher clip you can set the clip length (see attached pick)


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## mr.vad0614 (Oct 11, 2022)

ozonepaul said:


> 1. Double click in the click launcher slot you want to record in to create a clip
> 2. Now in the info tab (on the left hand side, if you don't see it just press i) of this launcher clip you can set the clip length (see attached pick)


Thank you so much for pointing that out ozonepaul, that is extremely helpful! I am sorry for being such a noob!? 😝 This is why I love this community so much! ❤️ I would love it though, if Bitwig could implement what Ableton have, as you can just record, play and stop and it's all set!


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## RogiervG (Oct 11, 2022)

PDehnig said:


> Misunderstanding from my side then. It sounded to me like an accusation he's advocating software-piracy, when it's not that black & white.
> 
> 
> I don't mean to be rude, but in my opinion you're full of shit. Well... maybe I do mean to be rude.
> ...


well, that escalated quickly i guess. I just vented my vision, based on my experiences. i even said i am not sure.. which also implies it's not a accusation, but an implication, which is completely a different thing. But you are now doing the same thing to me, as you blame me for doing. You are putting accusations on me, for me having implications on others. funny.

Anyway.. i'm stepping out of this back and forth debate in who's right in what.. let's just say. i disagree on your point of view, and you on mine.
Overall, i sense an overstimulated emotional vision from your end from what i've read (mind the word: sense), i am not going into that route, not worth the time.

ps.. no grudge or something towards you as fellow musician/community member.. 
Sometimes opinions clash/collide quite harshly, but that doesn't mean you are a bad person.


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## RogiervG (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> I personally feel it's a bittersweet announcement.
> 
> On one hand Bitwig corrected their mistake and announced there won't be any more paid add-ons. That's great. I'm happy for current subscribers.
> 
> ...


seems they have withdrawn that new product (for the extra costs) as a whole, and only have two versions left for future sakes (bigwig studio 16 track and bitwig studio).
Also for new customers, the future developments will be included in future versions of bitwig studio, so no more addons to purchase.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> as a whole, and only have two versions left for future sakes (bigwig studio 16 track and bitwig studio).


They also have an 8-track version that comes bundled with midi controllers.


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## RogiervG (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> They also have an 8-track version that comes bundled with midi controllers.


ah ok  wasn't aware, on the shop page i only see the known two versions. Yesterday it had three available.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> ah ok  wasn't aware, on the shop page i only see the known two versions. Yesterday it had three available.


Hmmm maybe they will start offering the 16-track version for midi controllers?


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 11, 2022)

I think the biggest lesson in all of this is that social media is the worst shit we have ever introduced to the public without regulating it or restricting how shitty it can be. Nice that Bitwig did what they did for the customers. I hope their business does well and I hope they'll communicate openly in the future if they need to make changes, in advance.

Too bad they can't undo the damage to Venus Theory/Benn who probably both got like 1200 DMs a day that they had no businesss receiving, without a word of advice or support from Bitwig the entire time, especially VT who's hand got forced reluctantly and it still blew up in his face. What a winning position it is to be in the public eye of a black-eyed pitchforking mob. Not everyone was like that, but 1% of 100,000 subscribers is a lot more undue toxic bullshit in my inbox than I'd ever care to deal with.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 11, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> Too bad they can't undo the damage to Venus Theory/Benn who probably both got like 1200 DMs a day that they had no businesss receiving, without a word of advice or support from Bitwig the entire time, especially VT who's hand got forced reluctantly and it still blew up in his face.



By the same token, no-one at Bitwig told them to go "hurr durr, amateur lawyers" on their stream. They did bring a lot on themselves initially. I don't think the apology needed a complete cut of ties with Bitwig but people in the public eye do need to realise that you do have to be a bit careful about using a bully pulpit on others. And social media hasn't changed that dynamic a whole lot, other that involving more people.


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## allen-garvey (Oct 11, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Thanks. Do you have a link to the accounts? I think it does make possibly a significant difference because if they have to pay VAT out of that amount then that might make the difference between profit and loss. And I’m just curious anyway :D


If you follow the link from Pier https://www.bundesanzeiger.de/pub/de/start?0 and then type "bitwig" in the search bar you can see the records.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 11, 2022)

Kind of funny of how the world works...

Apple, making billions, doing a ton of random shit, people retaliate, apple ignores everything, nothing happens, life goes on.

Avid, making millions, people backlash, avid ignores everything, nothing happens, life goes on.

Bitwig, making no money, probably unsustainable, they try to make money, people retaliate, they backtrack, people are happy, life goes on (however for how long).

My sense is that their offer to subscribers is not sustainable long term.

I think they also didn't handle it well, they could have announced that upfront that next renewals (once a users current renewal expires) will not include premium devices or whatever from that point in time, instead of changing the rules on the spot.

I guess they learn their lesson.

I kind of not getting the black / white opinions, do we prefer the company to go bankrupt?
Because they don't make money, and that's when Bigwig will truly die, not from an announcement for some premium devices,


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## DoubleTap (Oct 11, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Kind of funny of how the world works...
> 
> Apple, making billions, doing a ton of random shit, people retaliate, apple ignores everything, nothing happens, life goes on.
> 
> ...



When you're in the middle of a thunderstorm, you don't start fixing the roof. 

If Bitwig is unsustainable and they need to change their model, they can still do that. They could stop selling upgrade licences and give a deadline for when upgrades will no longer apply, and then move to version model for Bitwig 5. Or they could turn it into a Pro Tools type annual subscription with different tiers. But the time to do that is when the sun is shining again.


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> I personally feel it's a bittersweet announcement.
> 
> On one hand Bitwig corrected their mistake and announced there won't be any more paid add-ons. That's great. I'm happy for current subscribers.
> 
> ...


Their big .4 etc. numbers aren't that important, they always roll out things throughout the year, more so than upgrade cycles in other DAWs. Maybe 5.0 will have huge things, but in general they release things when they're ready, that's one of the supposed advantages of an Update Plan over an upgrade cycle.


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

Bitwig did the right thing, the add on thing was a huge mistake, but I do not believe they attempted to change their business model out of greed, I think they wanted to expand their company and grow. I like most of us, was upset and vocal about them keeping devices part of the Update Plan. We won, they moved the line. They will lose revenue over this, and that's not at all what I wanted, I just wanted what was promised etc. 

So, if you're happy with how it turned out, buy the Update Plan if you haven yet. I haven't yet, and I will today. I'm going to buy the Update Plan at full price for the first time, because I believe they deserve to do well, the product is great and they listened to us.

If you already have a Plan in place, they have Bitwig shirts and tote bags. What would be maybe a slight beacon of light in all this is to be able to let them know that they are respected for their late but righteous move by buying all their shirts and bags up. It's literally not more then 25 euro for anything in their merch shop.

I'm not shilling here, a public outcry that wins and gets what it wants should not then let the company suffer, we should want that company to thrive. If we can rally to change a wrong move by them we can rally to give them support for making the right move.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Kind of funny of how the world works...
> 
> Apple, making billions, doing a ton of random shit, people retaliate, apple ignores everything, nothing happens, life goes on.
> 
> ...


Bitwig started as four people and now pays the salary for 30 people, so it is probably more than sustainable.






About Us | Bitwig


Our art is helping you make yours. About Bitwig.




www.bitwig.com





If you check their public finances (see previous posts in this thread) you will see it's definitely generating profit every year.

And also a big difference is that Apple and Avid have lots of companies and pros as customers. These rarely go ranting on Youtube comments, Reddit, forums, etc, and harassing content creators.

Bitwig's userbase is probably mostly composed of hobbyists and small producers. I'm sure there are pros working with it that depend on Bitwig to sustain themselves, but I don't think it's the majority like with Pro Tools or Cubase.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 11, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> Too bad they can't undo the damage to Venus Theory/Benn who probably both got like 1200 DMs a day that they had no businesss receiving, without a word of advice or support from Bitwig the entire time, especially VT who's hand got forced reluctantly and it still blew up in his face. What a winning position it is to be in the public eye of a black-eyed pitchforking mob. Not everyone was like that, but 1% of 100,000 subscribers is a lot more undue toxic bullshit in my inbox than I'd ever care to deal with.



Nonsense! They were merely attempting to capitalize on this debacle and they totally blew it by making a mockery of the situation insulting both Bitwig and the community.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

Interesing article by Peter Kirn, editor of CDM.









Bitwig, after overwhelming user feedback, makes Spectral Suite part of Bitwig Studio 4.4 - CDM Create Digital Music


Bitwig heard you, it seems, user community. Spectral Suite is now a no-charge, included part of Studio 4.4, with refunds or Upgrade Plan extensions offered to anyone who bought it.




cdm.link


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## RogiervG (Oct 11, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Bitwig, making no money, probably unsustainable, they try to make money, people retaliate, they backtrack, people are happy, life goes on (however for how long).


curious, How did you came to this conclusion? 
to me, it seems very very unlikely, considering they also show up at music instrument expos (which costs a truckload of money to have a stand), among other things they do. Also, a business making no money = almost immediately going for bankrupty/going defunct in the software world. (unless you have a very nice supporting investor, which most don't)
By the way they reverted their doing back to the original offerings (and include the addons in the base package), it means they have income/money to do so, because this means a different endgame in terms of longer term income/revenue and therefor profit amount.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 11, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> How did you came to this conclusion?


By checking the financials (or rather that spreadsheet) in the previous pages.
They might have companies in more countries or I might be something something, but those statements make no sense.

They seem like they are operating at margin (even with that cash collected over the years feels unsafe), and even hiring a single dev will put them in debt if their revenue remains at the same level as the past two years. 

I am not sure, they might operate outside Germany, and those financials is the fraction of what is true.

No sane company wants to operate at margin, it's risky, they can't invest without going in debt, they can't make their vision come true, they can just proceed very carefully and in small steps which is not ideal considering that the competition made leaps (Dolby Atmos mixing which needs licensing etc). 

A single dev in Germany is probably making more Y2Y than the entire company.

Again a lot speculation here, but what my point is, I will hate to see them suffer.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> A single dev in Germany is probably making more Y2Y than the entire company.


You think a single dev in Germany can make 100k Euros per year?

In the US it's very common for devs to make more than 100k USD per year (specially in SV) but AFAIK this is extremely rare in Europe.


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## RogiervG (Oct 11, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> By checking the financials (or rather that spreadsheet) in the previous pages.
> They might have companies in more countries or I might be something something, but those statements make no sense.
> 
> They seem like they are operating at margin (even with that cash collected over the years feels unsafe), and even hiring a single dev will put them in debt if their revenue remains at the same level as the past two years.
> ...


it seems they fare well, since they still develop new stuff, considering, as how you see it "operate at margin". This should, i guess, also tell you something, maybe it's not such a risk as you imply in this case? perhaps indeed there is other income not in that publicated in these specific finance reports? it happends, without being fraudulent or anything criminal (e.g. sometimes more indepth reports are behind paywalls, or not (fully) open for public depending on the business entity form, e.g. LLC vs INC vs CORP, sometimes it how the country has rules in place etc etc)


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> You think a single dev in Germany can make 100k Euros per year?


I have many friends in Germany that make more than 100K a year.

*The average salary of a Software Engineer in Germany is €84,414*.
*The highest paying company for a Software Engineer in Germany is Facebook with an average salary of €225,048.*

Those are DSP devs, it's not easy to find also. 

If you calculate benefits, medical etc. It's easily exceeding 100K.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 11, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> it seems they fare well, since they still develop new stuff, considering, as how you see it "operate at margin". This should, i guess, also tell you something, maybe it's not such a risk as you imply in this case?


Think as a company,
A single lawsuit or a tax fine can put them out of business in a instance. 
They operate at global level, the risks are way higher. 

Just see what happened with the EULA violation in this case.


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## RogiervG (Oct 11, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> I have many friends in Germany that make more than 100K a year.
> 
> *The average salary of a Software Engineer in Germany is €84,414*.
> *The highest paying company for a Software Engineer in Germany is Facebook with an average salary of €225,048.*
> ...


84,414 (i guess gross?) is exceptionally much for european standards though, thats 7K per month.
I doubt it's the avarage in Germany. I consider it a high payed salary. Maybe your friends are in a luxury position? Or maybe they live in richer areas in germany? or with rich companies?
7K is very very high, like Senior senior level with years and years of experience.
it would be more realistic to have the avarage of around 2.5 to 4K a month for a 40 hours per week contract. Looking in the Netherlands, or Belgium e.g. that amount i gave is the average income for a programmer. (it varies on the difficulty of the job, and experiences)
Only very complex jobs, on senior levels are higher often.. but still 7K is way much.
Ofcourse this is all gross income, not net.
Or are you talking freelancers? those should not be counted to get an average salary for a country for a certain job. Same for posted workers (secondment)


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> *The average salary of a Software Engineer in Germany is €84,414*.
> *The highest paying company for a Software Engineer in Germany is Facebook with an average salary of €225,048.*
> 
> Those are DSP devs, it's not easy to find also.


I don't know where you got those numbers but if you Google a bit you will find the median is closer to 50k Euros.

According to Payscale, 90% of devs make less than 73k Euros.






Software Engineer Salary in Germany | PayScale


The average salary for a Software Engineer in Germany is €55,442. Visit PayScale to research software engineer salaries by city, experience, skill, employer and more.




www.payscale.com





Also DSP is a very niche area in software development which would explain the bias, but audio software companies spend and awful lot of resources on non-DSP code. I don't have the quote at hand but someone from KiloHearts said in a youtube stream they spend probably 80% of their C++ dev time in non DSP related tasks.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> I don't know where you got those numbers but if you Google a bit you will find the median is closer to 50k Euros.
> 
> According to Payscale, 90% of devs make less than 73k Euros.



We are getting off topic, if you believe that 100k/y is a healthy company I pass…

i can’t give details about the numbers but it’s my job so, I have access to a lot of data and even a Google search can yield results that can give you similar results to what I mentioned.

If you don’t believe that, it’s fine let’s move on


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## outland (Oct 11, 2022)

ozonepaul said:


> *MAJOR NEWS!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FWIW, for this little gray fox, this puts everything right again and I can proceed from this point, putting the entire incident out of my mind entirely. Many thanks to Bitwig for doing the right thing (especially without the courts having to get involved.) 

I do hope as well that Venus Theory and Benn can restore their professional relationships with the company (for everyone's sake.)


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## Crowe (Oct 11, 2022)

Yeah, as a Software Developer in Europe I can assure you the median for a software engineer is nowhere near 80k. Definitely not in Germany. What the actual hell.

Back on topic: If Bitwig isn't sustainable they shouldn't be employing 30 people. Downscaling is a very real option.

Either way, there is pretty much no reason to upgrade any software every year so the fact that so many people even want to pay 150 yearly to stay up to date is pretty amazing. I wonder if they'd get nearly as many subscribers if they started picking and choosing what to include in the subscription. It's ludicrous to think a DAW couldn't sustain itself with these numbers.

If every other DAW can make lifetime licenses work and stay in business and Bitwig can't survive with active fans and subscribers, maybe they're not meant to exist.

It's moot anyway. They don't make 100k revenue, they make 100k profit. If you keep investing your money back into your company, that shit happens. I wonder if Amazon has started making profit yet. I know they didn't for a very long time. To say Bitwig isn't solvent is just wrong.


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## DoubleTap (Oct 11, 2022)

(A salary is not the only cost to a company of hiring somebody. In the UK the cost of national insurance contributions and other things means the rule of thumb is about 30% ie if someone earns £100,000 their employer needs about £130,000. Similar figure in the US due to healthcare. I am told similar costs (eg social security) in Germany may be slightly higher, maybe 40% (source: spouse in HR).)


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Yeah, as a Software Developer in Europe I can assure you the median for a software engineer is nowhere near 80k. Definitely not in Germany. What the actual hell.
> 
> Back on topic: If Bitwig isn't sustainable they shouldn't be employing 30 people. Downscaling is a very real option.
> 
> ...


 I really have to get back to work but there's no way for me or you to know whether they spent any money at all on investing back into the company. That 100K could be it. After this fiasco I went to their store to see what else they had for sale besides the DAW and update plans, two shirts and a tote bag. 

They screwed up their attempt at generating other streams of income, but they simply don't have any other streams. They don't sell sound packs, sample libraries, and the paid tutorials on their site are third party. 

All I'm saying is we do not really know how solvent they are, but it's not like they have any buffer at all, that's obvious. I would bet hard cash that Ableton or Steinbergs profits are at least 8x what Bitwigs are.


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## Crowe (Oct 11, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> I really have to get back to work but there's no way for me or you to know whether they spent any money at all on investing back into the company. That 100K could be it. After this fiasco I went to their store to see what else they had for sale besides the DAW and update plans, two shirts and a tote bag.
> 
> They screwed up their attempt at generating other streams of income, but they simply don't have any other streams. They don't sell sound packs, sample libraries, and the paid tutorials on their site are third party.
> 
> All I'm saying is we do not really know how solvent they are, but it's not like they have any buffer at all, that's obvious. I would bet hard cash that Ableton or Steinbergs profits are at least 8x what Bitwigs are.


Huh? Yes we can, that document shows that they had a revenue of over a million. Their profit growth is 100k. That's completely normal for a company of that size. In fact, my current company had numbers nearly identical to those this year and we were exceedingly happy with that.

EDIT: Looking more closely, you are in fact right that we can't see wether they invested anything. We can, however, see that they are making quite a lot of revenue and are growing as well.

Here we go:






I can assure you, while this is not amazing in growth, these are pretty decent numbers.


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## Pier (Oct 11, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> I really have to get back to work but there's no way for me or you to know whether they spent any money at all on investing back into the company.


So how did they go from 4 employees to 30?


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## RogiervG (Oct 11, 2022)

they are not belly up. And if disaster hits financially ( i hope this will never be the case: competition is needed), then we'll see what happens with them. either they are getting an investor or buy out or bankrupty. but still, lets not speculate on this subject too much. nobody knows the insides more than bitwig themselves.

note: i am not a bitwig user. (Cubase)


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

> Either way, there is pretty much no reason to upgrade any software every year so the fact that so many people even want to pay 150 yearly to stay up to date is pretty amazing. I wonder if they'd get nearly as many subscribers if they started picking and choosing what to include in the subscription. It's ludicrous to think a DAW couldn't sustain itself with these numbers.


Another point, this is the difference between an Update Plan and Upgrades. They're not forcing anyone to update every year, and there's a huge padding on the Plan, any .01 release that comes out after your plan runs out is still considered part of the plan. So you can game the plan a bit, I bought Bitwig in 2020 and I just ran out of my only Update Plan purchase this week. So 150 for 2 years, or pretty much like the average DAWs upgrade cycle.


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## Crowe (Oct 11, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> Another point, this is the difference between an Update Plan and Upgrades. They're not forcing anyone to update every year, and there's a huge padding on the Plan, any .01 release that comes out after your plan runs out is still considered part of the plan. So you can game the plan a bit, I bought Bitwig in 2020 and I just ran out of my only Update Plan purchase this week. So 150 for 2 years, or pretty much like the average DAWs upgrade cycle.



I think that's a bit of a mistake though. If you do a plan like that, one should probably not make it that easily possible to 'game the system'.


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> So how did they go from 4 employees to 30?


They got a substantial investment up front to start the business in the first place. Plus, again, we do not know if the profit is after investing in employees or before? meaning any yearly profit could or could not be reflecting new employees. In other words we could be looking at a substantial drop in actual profit for the last two years without being able to see it clearly with the numbers given.


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I think that's a bit of a mistake though. If you do a plan like that, one should probably not make it that easily possible to 'game the system'.


Yeah it's risky, it's IMO why they tried to dangle out "add ons" outside that plan. I wonder if the model stays around much longer after this? I imagine if they do change it, it's not going to happen for 6 months or so.


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## Crowe (Oct 11, 2022)

*AN*D AN_*OTH*_ER TH*ING!!!*

I am not at all sure of their structure and the nature of the investment, but a company does not necessarily have to make a profit at all. In some constructions (and definitely in the 'growing phase'), if it remains solvent and can pay all of it's employees (including management), that is all that matters.


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Huh? Yes we can, that document shows that they had a revenue of over a million. Their profit growth is 100k. That's completely normal for a company of that size. In fact, my current company had numbers nearly identical to those this year and we were exceedingly happy with that.
> 
> EDIT: Looking more closely, you are in fact right that we can't see wether they invested anything. We can, however, see that they are making quite a lot of revenue and are growing as well.
> 
> ...


I really have to get back to work, but these are terrible numbers for a growing company that has 30 employees, it means the average is 46K or more likely 80K for a couple developers and the CEO and 35K for the rest. A quick look and Ableton made 11.2 million in the same year Bitwig made 1.4.


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## ozonepaul (Oct 11, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> I really have to get back to work, but these are terrible numbers for a growing company that has 30 employees, it means the average is 46K or more likely 80K for a couple developers and the CEO and 35K for the rest. A quick look and Ableton made 11.2 million in the same year Bitwig made 1.4.


Ableton has got more than 10x as many employees. Completely useless to compare companies with such size/market share differences. They're at a completely different stage of their growth.


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

ozonepaul said:


> Ableton has got more than 10x as many employees. Completely useless to compare companies with such size/market share differences.


 Yeah, except they're competing for the same market, and there's IMO no way Bitwig doesn't want a larger chunk of that market. Basically arguing they are stable at their income is also moot. They want significant growth, they just expanded in the wrong direction.


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## Kslovelace (Oct 11, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> If I believed in cancel culture, this sounds like it. People have all the right to disagree with what was said and take their viewing hours elsewhere. Same way they can take their money away from bitwig for all that has happened. Much of the discourse has been, “if you have a different opinion, you’re dismissive and totally missing the point, and the only intelligent relevant conversation can come from people who agree with the mob.”
> 
> I am absolutely sure there is a legitimate reason for disappointment, but not for outrage, slander and witch hunts.
> 
> ...


We are on the same exact page brother. My statement was in reference to exactly what you are saying here. I agree everyone has the right to their opinion. But some will never be satisfied regardless or what is said and what is done. Hence the “you can not please everyone”.


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## ozonepaul (Oct 11, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> Yeah, except they're competing for the same market, and there's IMO no way Bitwig doesn't want a larger chunk of that market. Basically arguing they are stable at their income is also moot. They want significant growth, they just expanded in the wrong direction.


My _"Ableton has got more than 10x as many employees"_ argument/response has got nothing to do with your response. I don't have a clue whether Bitwig wants a larger chunk of Ableton's pie or they want to focus on a slightly different user base. I don't know whether they want to be bigger than Ableton or they are happy to stay smaller forever. No idea.

But I do know that no one should automatically think that just because _"Ableton made 11.2 million in the same year Bitwig made 1.4"_ it means that as far as financial stability/as far as growth prospect etc Bitwig is in a worst situation than Ableton. Especially not if this 10x more Ableton profit was generated with more than 10x more employees.

You said: "_They want significant growth, they just expanded in the wrong direction."_
Again, I don't have a clue: perhaps they want quick and significant growth or perhaps they want steady, lower risk gradual growth. No idea.
What I do know though: if their business/market experts thought that "significant growth" can be achieved through these payed add-ons than they are the most incompetent and amateur experts imaginable, and they should be fired immediately.
Purely from a rational business point of view, the whole concept of these "new product/ payed add-ons" as potential "significant extra revenue generators" was a disaster from the get go
a.) because it undermines the value of the original upgrade plan subscription big time;
b.) because it's locked to the Bitwig ecosystem, hence would not have been of any interest of "outsiders" (meaning other DAW users);
c.) because these are niche products inside a niche DAW product anyway;
d.) etc.

But the biggest mistery of this whole shitstorm: Bitwig just developed a new DAW independent audio plugin format called CLAP. If they just needed some extra revenue than why did they not continue focusing on that? Why did they not develop their spectral tools as CLAPs as well? That could have
a.) showcased the advantages of CLAP,
b.) showcased non Bitwig users what great tools are bundled inside Bitwig.
And that (on top of generating some new income) could have potentially pull in new Bitwig customers, or at least wake the interest of "outsiders".
I bet not a single upgrade subscriber would have raised a single eyebrow. With spectral tools as CLAP devices this gigantic shitstorm could have been easily avoided.


----------



## outland (Oct 11, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Nonsense! They were merely attempting to capitalize on this debacle and they totally blew it by making a mockery of the situation insulting both Bitwig and the community.


You know, I understand your point and it is totally justifiable (and I thank you for all your comments), but I hope that they both can get back to using and endorsing Bitwig and helping the community using it. It may be too late for that, but I guess one can hope.

Really, this whole situation has been an exercise in futility, agita, and embarrassment for a good many people. FWIW, I am going to just forget it happened. There is enough ugliness in the world. Hopefully, we can let music-making proceed in a better, more helpful direction. We have so much for which to be thankful both providentially and on a more individual basis. As a community, we need to move on, I think. I know I do. My brother-in-law just passed away and my own two brothers are literal thieves, in addition to everything else a bit further in the background. Forgetting this all and moving on is for me something of a necessity.


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## tempsperdu (Oct 11, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> They will lose revenue over this, and that's not at all what I wanted, I just wanted what was promised etc.


Arguably it is a fraction of what they would have lost if they hadn't.
The Upgrade Plan as it has been is workable because it is simple. You pay money, you get what they do.
Complicate that by trying to introduce tiers, and how do you start to delineate what is included and what is not? How do you package that and make it acceptable?
The moment they tried to change things without properly explaining and communicating they lost trust.
That trust was earned because of the simplicity of the plan and them updating at an enviable pace compared to the competition, hence the loyalty.
In the end, if they wanted to remain solvent, there weren't that many options other than what they did.
They are still free to pursue other avenues for revenue streams and if they do, they should now know you really have to properly consider any resonances from that.


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## machinesworking (Oct 11, 2022)

ozonepaul said:


> My _"Ableton has got more than 10x as many employees"_ argument/response has got nothing to do with your response. I don't have a clue whether Bitwig wants a larger chunk of Ableton's pie or they want to focus on a slightly different user base. I don't know whether they want to be bigger than Ableton or they are happy to stay smaller forever. No idea.
> 
> But I do know that no one should automatically think that just because _"Ableton made 11.2 million in the same year Bitwig made 1.4"_ it means that as far as financial stability/as far as growth prospect etc Bitwig is in a worst situation than Ableton. Especially not if this 10x more Ableton profit was generated with more than 10x more employees.
> 
> ...


Good points. I think when companies start talking about "not wanting to raise the price of the Update Plan, so selling add ons" etc. You can kind of guess they're trying to raise new forms of revenue. Normally when it's things that they might suspect some customers will not take kindly to, I will suspect it's about either expansion or filling in financial gaps. 

And you're right CLAP is pretty cool, how many DAWs currently support it? I think with the introduction of CLAP it's obvious that there's a philosophical and literal move to replace VST and AU, Bitwig only support VST, and it's obvious they aren't big fans of VST3, this seems to be the reason for CLAP in the first place. CLAP right now is not a viable source of income, at least a plug in that is CLAP only is not. 


This point though,


> because these are niche products inside a niche DAW product anyway;


 Ableton, FL, Reason, all sell embedded plug ins, and sample libraries that only work in those DAWs. You can even buy libraries for Metasynth... this is not an unheard of revenue stream. Your point about the Update Plan is legit though, they backed themselves in a corner, probably should have sold sample libraries or preset libraries, things that seem a lot less core to the product than embedded plug ins. 

I stand by my point though, I do not think this was done maliciously, and I like their product, I also happen to respect that they changed, instead of folding shop and working for NI or something.


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## ozonepaul (Oct 12, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> Good points. I think when companies start talking about "not wanting to raise the price of the Update Plan, so selling add ons" etc. You can kind of guess they're trying to raise new forms of revenue. Normally when it's things that they might suspect some customers will not take kindly to, I will suspect it's about either expansion or filling in financial gaps.
> 
> And you're right CLAP is pretty cool, how many DAWs currently support it? I think with the introduction of CLAP it's obvious that there's a philosophical and literal move to replace VST and AU, Bitwig only support VST, and it's obvious they aren't big fans of VST3, this seems to be the reason for CLAP in the first place. CLAP right now is not a viable source of income, at least a plug in that is CLAP only is not.
> 
> ...


- I agree, _"CLAP right now is not a viable source of income", _so releasing these spectral tools as CLAP only would not have been a clever move. But releasing them as CLAP & Bitwig device would have been better than just as Bitwig device. + I'm pretty sure it wasn't that easy to develop CLAP, so it's a bit strange they have not yet released any new toy as a CLAP device.

- You wrote: _"Bitwig backed themselves in a corner." _Again, completely agree. My point was not that eg. embedded plug-ins is unheard of. My point was that their unique upgrade plan subscription and the idea of payed embedded plug-ins is a horrible pairing. It's not one of my critical points, but rather the totality of it that makes their payed add-on move very ill judged.

- You wrote: _"I do not think this was done maliciously, and I like their product, I also happen to respect that they changed". _
Again, hardly any disagreement. I just think the concept of some payed add-ons (paired with their unique subscription model + disastrous communication) was a very bad idea. Than their 6-7 days of silence (+ tweaking the EULA etc.) was a bit too much for the loyal user community, it was pouring oil on the fire. These are horrible business moves. How hard would have it been to put up a bloody tweet or something saying: "we hear you, we're working on a solution". They did not even respond to the huge uproar on their own official support area on KVR. It was more than 100 pages, had nearly 1700 replies and more than 53000 views, and not a single word from them. That on it's own was a ginormous error (not mentioning them abandoning their youtubers, educators and resellers etc). There is not a single investor with a brain bigger than a pea who would ever suggest to behave/communicate like this._ All this _is clearly the fault of the Bitwig team, no one else to blame. It has got nothing to do with their financial situation. There is not a single "business for dummies" book where good communication with your own customers is not mentioned on the very first page. (+ Good communication is pretty much the only thing that's cheap/free in the type of business Bitwig is in.)

But these are just amateur, bad business decisions, so I can easily forgive them, especially after their _"We apologize for how we handled this and want to make this right" _statement. I hugely value their self reflecting apology.

The only reason I've got still a tiny little bad taste in my mouth is this:
For Bitwig to define these Spectral add-ons as some new products, the old product's subscription's condition/description ("all software updates") needed a "definition squeeze" (to "Bitwig Studio updates"). Bitwig making this "definition squeeze" behind my back, without any "terms and condition change notice"... this is the only area where I sense some maliciousness. Perhaps (seeing the negative user reactions) this was just a panic move. I don't know... but I still find it very hard to move Bitwig's "definition squeeze" from my "sneaky/dishonest" ethic drawer to my "mistake/error" ethic drawer.

Anyway, I'm very happy they listened to their user community, I'm happy they made a u turn, I'm happy they came out with a proper apology... I hope they will learn from this and I hope they will revaluate the importance of honest communication, the importance of online user communities (gearslutz, KVR, this vi-control) etc. 

I just read an article on this Bitwig shitstorm on cdm. The article said:
_"...Working out how to offer upgrades has always been a sensitive issue – especially because music customers tend to make long-term investments in software. That’s not just an investment of money; it’s an investment of time and trust. The latter often are what matter most as currency...
The music tech customers who will pay a hundred bucks just to get some jacks on their modular rig do so partly because it’s a decision they fully control – and once they buy that module, it’s theirs. *Valuing control, choice, and trust matter more to this market than a lot of other markets – and what makers get in return is loyalty other industries can’t begin to imagine*....Take care of your users, and they’ll likely take care of you – and invest in your products."_

https://cdm.link/2022/10/bitwig-makes-spectral-suite-free/

Anyway:
_"It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good..."
_


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## Crossroads (Oct 12, 2022)

It occured to no one that this whole thing was setup to get people to talk about the DAW?

Smells like the "new taste cola" thing Coca-Cola did.


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## ozonepaul (Oct 12, 2022)

Crossroads said:


> It occured to no one that this whole thing was setup to get people to talk about the DAW?
> 
> Smells like the "new taste cola" thing Coca-Cola did.


I don't remember seeing any kind of _"We've had time to reflect on the responses of our customers, so we apologize for how we handled this and want to make this right"_ statement from Coca Cola, so I guess it's nothing like "new taste cola".


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## Alchemedia (Oct 12, 2022)

Crossroads said:


> It occured to no one that this whole thing was setup to get people to talk about the DAW?
> 
> Smells like the "new taste cola" thing Coca-Cola did.


Some of the most successful advertising campaigns were built upon the premise that people want most what they can't or don't have. Got Milk?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 12, 2022)

3DC said:


> Well I saved some money for Bitwig and after this "promo" I am no longer interested in Bitwig. Besides I already have FL Studio - all plugins edition and Cubase 12 Pro.
> 
> My focus for potential acquisition is now on S1 and Ableton Live Suite but Presonus is also making some weird "promo" decisions. Like "one page manual"...


Fender's CEO hinted at dumbing down ST1 however that fortunately didn't happen.


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## Technostica (Oct 12, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Fender's CEO hinted at dumbing down ST1 however that fortunately didn't happen.


That was pure speculation that blew up on the Internet because that's what people do.
Anyone that knows the various tiers of S1 will be aware that there is space for an even more simplified version at the bottom. 
But as we have seen with the Bitwig case, people love to go into meltdown and lose a sense of perspective. 
The obvious thing with Bitwig was to write to the company expressing your view and wait until they made a formal public announcement.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 12, 2022)

Technostica said:


> That was pure speculation that blew up on the Internet because that's what people do.
> Anyone that knows the various tiers of S1 will be aware that there is space for an even more simplified version at the bottom.
> But as we have seen with the Bitwig case, people love to go into meltdown and lose a sense of perspective.
> The obvious thing with Bitwig was to write to the company expressing your view and wait until they made a formal public announcement.


S1 has been surprisingly positive despite the fears of fender killing it and sphere bringing the end of quality features for perpetual license holders.

Mostly PreSonus has focused its hardware division, and continued to provide updates to everyone, while also adding tons of content to sphere that doesn’t isolate or disadvantage non-subscribers. It’ll probably never be as focused as pro tools or cubase, but what it’s decided to focus on is pretty versatile for most users.


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## ozonepaul (Oct 12, 2022)

Technostica said:


> ...But as we have seen with the Bitwig case, people love to go into meltdown and lose a sense of perspective.
> The obvious thing with Bitwig was to write to the company expressing your view and wait until they made a formal public announcement.


I followed very closely the Bitwig pushback events here on vi, on gearslutz and on KVR. I would say less than 5-10% of people commenting were in "meltdown" or "lose perspective" mode. More than 90% just politely (but firmly) expressed their disappointment, dissatisfaction and frustration caused by Bitwig's action they perceived (in my opinion rightly so) as a bit sneaky and dishonest.

+ I disagree with you, I don't think "writing to Bitwig and waiting" would have made Bitwig to course correct. If the user reactions hadn't been as strong as they were, than I think Bitwig would not have made a U turn, they would have just stuck with their original "payed add-ons" concept.


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## tempsperdu (Oct 12, 2022)

ozonepaul said:


> + I disagree with you, I don't think "writing to Bitwig and waiting" would have made Bitwig to course correct. If the user reactions hadn't been as strong as they were, than I think Bitwig would not have made a U turn, they would have just stuck with their original "payed add-ons" concept.


Indeed, and if they had doubled down they would have been in far greater trouble because you can't introduce a tiered system without really thinking it through and selling it to users.
They would most likely lose a lot if not all paying in advance.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 12, 2022)

Technostica said:


> But as we have seen with the Bitwig case, people love to go into meltdown and lose a sense of perspective.



And equally, some like to virtue signalling how above it all they are by misrepresenting the actions of others.


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## Technostica (Oct 12, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> And equally, some like to virtue signalling how above it all they are by misrepresenting the actions of others.


Okay! 
Bye.


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## RogiervG (Oct 12, 2022)

still debating i see? 

for the two debates:
1) They are not bankrupt
2) they did some actions on which the community of users have spoken out their opinions. They listened and reverted it in favor of the community. 

shall we give it a rest?


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## Villanao (Oct 12, 2022)

This whole thing has made me realize how awesome Bitwig is and how convenient rent-to-own in Splice is 😐


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## zvenx (Oct 12, 2022)

Pier said:


> Huh? Why not?
> 
> Steinberg said they'd release Atmos in a future update even though it was not included in Cubase v12.0.


I am not sure it is a hard and fast rule, but companies in general tend to resist doing so, because if they do change their mind for whatever reason or don't have it working properly or in the time they said it would, there is usually bad flack from some of their customers.

The Cubase example you used is different.. SB already had it working when they made that announcement they just had some last minute bugs to fix which wouldn't have been able to fixed and tested in time for Cubase 12's release date.

I know this with 100% certainty.
rsp


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## Sombreuil (Oct 12, 2022)

Villanao said:


> This whole thing has made me realize how awesome Bitwig is and how convenient rent-to-own in Splice is 😐


They tried to rip people off with their move and they are awesome because they backed out?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 12, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> They tried to rip people off with their move and they are awesome because they backed out?


Perhaps they should rename "Spectral Suite" --> "Passive-Aggressive Suite". 
Who knows? Perhaps it was a calculated litmus test. I'm just glad they did the right thing in the end.


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## Sombreuil (Oct 12, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Perhaps they should rename "Spectral Suite" --> "Passive-Aggressive Suite".
> Who knows? Perhaps it was a calculated litmus test. I'm just glad they did the right thing in the end.


I just don't understand how one can say a compagny is awesome after they tried to rip people off, and only backed out because a whole community was calling them out.
They put themselves in this situation, there is nothing awesome about doing something everyone was asking for.


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## machinesworking (Oct 12, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> I just don't understand how one can say a compagny is awesome after they tried to rip people off, and only backed out because a whole community was calling them out.
> They put themselves in this situation, there is nothing awesome about doing something everyone was asking for.


I’ve been an NI customer since Komplete 2, great products, Reaktor and Kontakt have little real competition, But the company NI? They’ve deprecated more products I’ve owned from them than I currently own from them, including hardware they made that’s now incompaible with modern OS’s. I’m not at all a fan of their marketing, CEO decision making or the direction they headed in recently, but that has zero to do with whether a Kontakt is a good product or not. It has nothing to do with the quality of the work put out by their developers etc. I like supporting companies that have great policies, mostly those companies are expensive, Fabfilter, U-He, DMG, none of the sell things at bargain prices etc.

Bitwig made one mistake, they rectified it when people spoke up, I hardly consider at the level of NI, iZotope and IK who flash sale all the time, release upgrades that should be updates, balk on supporting Apple Silicon, charge for downloads, have insane or weird upgrade pricing etc. etc. I also own products from thsoe companies because the developers working for them make great software. 

It’s not hard to figure out, it’s the product that matters, not the business practices of the company, of course if the company puts two middle fingers up in the air and won’t back down then yeah, don’t bother with the product. I don’t see that here.


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## Villanao (Oct 12, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> I just don't understand how one can say a compagny is awesome after they tried to rip people off, and only backed out because a whole community was calling them out.
> They put themselves in this situation, there is nothing awesome about doing something everyone was asking for.


I said the product was awesome and the rent-to-own option is convenient.

People make mistakes. They made one, apologized, reversed it, and promised not to do it again. Forgiveness is a societal and spiritual need.


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## Mindbullets (Oct 12, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> I just don't understand how one can say a compagny is awesome after they tried to rip people off, and only backed out because a whole community was calling them out.
> They put themselves in this situation, there is nothing awesome about doing something everyone was asking for.


Most of the people at Bitwig have been spending their time developing a phenomenal product. I'd wager MAYBE a handful of them made a bad decision last week. They took what many of us felt was too long (3.5 business days) to respond. But they corrected course. 

I just hope they get back to making more cool stuff, perhaps focusing a bit more on improving some of the core functionality (piano roll, MSEG, etc) that have taken a back seat to other more innovative/niche features, or start implementing features that have been on the roadmap for a long time (online collab). 

Generally speaking though, I think Bitwig is awesome.


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## Fleer (Oct 12, 2022)

Pier said:


> I personally feel it's a bittersweet announcement.
> 
> On one hand Bitwig corrected their mistake and announced there won't be any more paid add-ons. That's great. I'm happy for current subscribers.
> 
> ...


Unless Bitwig 5 is just around the corner


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## paulmatthew (Oct 15, 2022)

One thing I'm finding wonky with buying Bitwig is the edu version . If you buy it direct , they won't activate it until they verify your student status. What happens if they reject it? Are you out the money , does it get refunded? There is no information regarding that. Most online stores verify your student status before purchases, not after.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 15, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> One thing I'm finding wonky with buying Bitwig is the edu version . If you buy it direct , they won't activate it until they verify your student status. What happens if they reject it? Are you out the money , does it get refunded? There is no information regarding that. Most online stores verify your student status before purchases, not after.



They will refund your money if not approved.


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