# Motorized faders to control Kontakt CC parameters



## karelpsota (Aug 8, 2015)

Hi, I'm looking to control modulation, expression, volume, and Spitfire's mic positions with one controller.

Is there a way to have a controller automatically sending the same CC without having to reassign parameters for each new midi track? I know that the BCF 2000 has a few presets for stock EQ and synths in Logic.

If so what fader controllers do you recommend for Kontakt? (Junkie XL's FaderMaster is a bit too expensive).

-Karel


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## samphony (Aug 8, 2015)

The one Tom is using I have seen on eBay for 80 - 150 bucks. It doesn't have motorized faders. 

The one you are talking about is the ES8.


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## karelpsota (Aug 8, 2015)

Can you precise what model it was?

The only one I saw is the JLCooper FaderMaster Pro on his template video.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 8, 2015)

Almost any midi controller like the BCF2000 will work. The Spitfire mic positions already have CC's assigned so you wouldn't have to reassign anything. The only thing with the BCF2000 (and many other controllers) is that you can't simultaneously use it as a generic CC remote and whatever automatic mapping functions it has (like Mackie emulations). One exception to this I believe is the new Avid controllers which can be split for CC's.


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## Mishabou (Aug 8, 2015)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Almost any midi controller like the BCF2000 will work. The Spitfire mic positions already have CC's assigned so you wouldn't have to reassign anything. The only thing with the BCF2000 (and many other controllers) is that you can't simultaneously use it as a generic CC remote and whatever automatic mapping functions it has (like Mackie emulations). One exception to this I believe is the new Avid controllers which can be split for CC's.



Only the Artist mix will work (Cubase only), on the S3 the Quick Controls are spilled to the top encoders and they can't be flipped to faders.

Personally, i found motorized faders add little to no value to controlling CC. After testing the Artist mix for a few wks i end up with the JLCooper MasterFader for CCs and an S3 for mixing, really a great combo.


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## karelpsota (Aug 8, 2015)

Thanks Gerhard and Anhtu.
I just need the CC, so the BCF is perfect (S3 and JLCooper are way too expensive for me).

Do you know if the faders respond in realtime when there is NO automation?
For example will the Spitfire volume fader go to -6 when I start my session, or do I have to move the CC volume to start the synch between the virtual and physical fader?


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 8, 2015)

karelpsota said:


> I just need the CC, so the BCF is perfect (S3 and JLCooper are way too expensive for me).


The Icon QCon EX might be an alternative to the BCF. The BCF costs a lot more now, but I guess the faders are still pretty noisy. Just a thought.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 9, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> Only the Artist mix will work (Cubase only), on the S3 the Quick Controls are spilled to the top encoders and they can't be flipped to faders.
> 
> Personally, i found motorized faders add little to no value to controlling CC. After testing the Artist mix for a few wks i end up with the JLCooper MasterFader for CCs and an S3 for mixing, really a great combo.



Apparently there's a hack the S3 to split the faders for CC's.

+1 on automation being useless for CC's unless you're recording it as automation and not midi data.


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## mc_deli (Aug 9, 2015)

The Akai Midimix is 79€ and looks very easy to assign any CC to any knob or fader. I just downloaded the Mac app for it and it is very easy. But the faders are 30mm :(


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 9, 2015)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> +1 on automation being useless for CC's unless you're recording it as automation and not midi data.



Yes - using the Artist as a CC controller means you have to go with automation rather than midi. Strongly disagree with Anhtu that it isn't useful to have touch faders on the automation data though.


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## FriFlo (Aug 9, 2015)

Guy Rowland said:


> Yes - using the Artist as a CC controller means you have to go with automation rather than midi. Strongly disagree with Anhtu that it isn't useful to have touch faders on the automation data though.


I totally agree, it would be useful to have motor faders for CCs! I just think it is a total PITA to deal with the CC data as automation, as currently implemented in Cubase. If they would make this automation data available within the key editor and give the same editing capabilities, I would immediately start using motor faders for CC data. Until then, I do it the old fasioned way with un-motorized faders.
But I have to stop here, because I think the whole integration of kontakt instruments, VSTis in general, touch screen controllers and hardware midi controllers needs a serious over-haul! So many brilliant ideas could be easily done, but current DAWs are still in the 90ies regarding that topic ...


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 9, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> So many brilliant ideas could be easily done, but current DAWs are still in the 90ies regarding that topic ...



Strongly agree. I've been pretty surprised at how slowly DAWs have evolved. Lots of bells and whistles, lots of bloat, but core workflow and functionality is waaaay below where it should be on all DAWs currently. I don't think any DAW is even half way as good as can be imagined with current tech. And then there's the hardware integration...

Apologies for the OT, one of my hobby horses and can never resist...


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## samphony (Aug 9, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> I totally agree, it would be useful to have motor faders for CCs! I just think it is a total PITA to deal with the CC data as automation, as currently implemented in Cubase. If they would make this automation data available within the key editor and give the same editing capabilities, I would immediately start using motor faders for CC data. Until then, I do it the old fasioned way with un-motorized faders.
> But I have to stop here, because I think the whole integration of kontakt instruments, VSTis in general, touch screen controllers and hardware midi controllers needs a serious over-haul! So many brilliant ideas could be easily done, but current DAWs are still in the 90ies regarding that topic ...



Although I'm a Logic Pro user I think You nailed it. As Logic allows to have automation data on a track base or region base (bound to the object) the whole implementation of controllers etc needs an overhaul. All daws suffer from the same issue in my opinion.


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## R. Soul (Aug 9, 2015)

I'm quite looking forward to the Behringer x-touch but at this rate, who know's when it'll be out.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X-TOUCH.aspx

Perhaps Nektar P1 is an option?


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## Mishabou (Aug 9, 2015)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Apparently there's a hack the S3 to split the faders for CC's.
> 
> +1 on automation being useless for CC's unless you're recording it as automation and not midi data.



Where have you seen or heard about a hack for the S3 so one can have faders for CCs ? Love to try it out...


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## pmountford (Aug 10, 2015)

According to the Thomann site the X-Touch compact & mini are out for sale with the larger X-Touch available this week so I guess we'll find out soon what the Behringer devices are capable of controlling. Personally I'm not overly optimistic about CC handling on these but hopefully I'll be wrong as I've been holding off any purchase decisions until I hear definitively about these. (Surely Steinberg/Yamaha would have filled this gap by now... as I've said before)


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 10, 2015)

I know I've pointed all this out several times before, but only the full x-touch has any display on each channel, and without a display you're blind and it's a paperweight IMO. Also it's not EuCon, and that means (AFAIK) that it won't follow you as you work around the DAW - you have to bank across potentially hundreds of channels.

That's why the only game in town for me is the Artist Mix (not the others in the series either). Tbh working with the automation lane for me hasn't been a problem at all, and the gains in every other way are tremendous.


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## vicontrolu (Aug 10, 2015)

I have an Alphatrack, it follows selection and its not Eucon so its not just Eucon limited. MAckie Control protocol follows too, i think.

Guy, I have ordered an Artist Control, i really cant understand why anybody would prefer 6 more faders than the ultra powerful touch screen. Is there a particular reason why you prefered the Mix?


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 10, 2015)

vicontrolu said:


> I have an Alphatrack, it follows selection and its not Eucon so its not just Eucon limited. MAckie Control protocol follows too, i think.
> 
> Guy, I have ordered an Artist Control, i really cant understand why anybody would prefer 6 more faders than the ultra powerful touch screen. Is there a particular reason why you prefered the Mix?



That's interesting about the Mackie protocol - as I understood it, neither HUI or Mackie would follow selection. I've never made an app do it emulating those protocols, anyway.

The problem with the Control is there is no display on the 4 faders. I can't emphasise enough how important that display is - I'm constantly switching between volume, pan, sends, CCs etc and switching between single and multichannel mode. And of course roaming round projects with hundreds of channels. Without clear displays, it comes just a big dumb nightmare. Also the touchscreen on the control is not really that big a deal IMO - it tends to just get used for a few softkeys. And finally being able to mix on 8 faders is preferable to 4 for me - I do tend to grab whole armfuls at once on occasion.


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## mc_deli (Aug 10, 2015)

pmountford said:


> According to the Thomann site the X-Touch compact & mini are out for sale with the larger X-Touch available this week so I guess we'll find out soon what the Behringer devices are capable of controlling. Personally I'm not overly optimistic about CC handling on these but hopefully I'll be wrong as I've been holding off any purchase decisions until I hear definitively about these. (Surely Steinberg/Yamaha would have filled this gap by now... as I've said before)



I just called Thomann to check and the site is correct. Though they haven't had the X-Touch yet and it says "due back" - but yes, there should be some X-Touch Compacts in the wild now and some X-Touch's soon.

One question though - at 498 and 725 EUR - they seems pricey. Is it my rose tints or are the prices 40% above the predicted 400USD street from the launch...? Does that account for the delay - "we priced this way too low, let's wait until everyone has forgotten and bump the price and claim we had to do extra to integrate with our new digimixers"... I am a cynic I know...


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## vicontrolu (Aug 10, 2015)

Guy Rowland said:


> The problem with the Control is there is no display on the 4 faders. I can't emphasise enough how important that display is - I'm constantly switching between volume, pan, sends, CCs etc and switching between single and multichannel mode. And of course roaming round projects with hundreds of channels. Without clear displays, it comes just a big dumb nightmare. Also the touchscreen on the control is not really that big a deal IMO - it tends to just get used for a few softkeys. And finally being able to mix on 8 faders is preferable to 4 for me - I do tend to grab whole armfuls at once on occasion.



The names of the 4 channels are displayed on the screen. While i agree is better to have them on top of the fader, it takes very little time to adapt to this (its just something like 10 degrees on the right anyway). Due to the fact that its just 4 channel info, you never get too lost there.

The soft keys shouldnt be overlooked, they can be used for basically anything you can think of (they can send QWERTY commands too). You can, for example, add your plugin(s) with a single touch on the screen, and map every parameter as you wish to the rotary knobs. You can define your own sets of softkeys, creating your own customized intefrace. 

Its actually the closest thing to "not looking at the screen" controller type, and not limited just for the mixing stage.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 10, 2015)

Anhtu said:


> Where have you seen or heard about a hack for the S3 so one can have faders for CCs ? Love to try it out...


I saw it on a comment Trevor Morris made on Facebook on a picture of his S3. It's now the only control surface he has on his desk for both PT and Cubase.


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## arnau (Aug 10, 2015)

R. Soul said:


> I'm quite looking forward to the Behringer x-touch but at this rate, who know's when it'll be out.
> http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X-TOUCH.aspx
> 
> Perhaps Nektar P1 is an option?


I'm also between the Behringer x-touch and the Nektar P1...


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## mc_deli (Aug 10, 2015)

The P1 also interests me. However, since a GS thread in June where the Nektar dev said that the new Logic integration is imminent, there has been no news. And the faders are 45mm. The price is better. And the description of the integration if/when it is ready sounds good. The website hasn't been updated in a bit. My concern is that the Nektar software won't last. Still looks good as a generic midi controller though. But if only AKAI had put longer faders on the midimix...


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## Coldsound (Aug 11, 2015)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I saw it on a comment Trevor Morris made on Facebook on a picture of his S3. It's now the only control surface he has on his desk for both PT and Cubase.


I saw it too, and I'm also seeking a motorized touch fader for CC automation control under cubase. Still haven't found the best solution yet. I had a faderport, but it's not working really with cubase 64bits and only concern volume automation, not CC (midi) automation. But I'm almost sure I've seen a working solution with logic audio (environment tweak) and a fadermaster...


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 11, 2015)

...just to point out that, AFAIK, the S3 has the same limitation in Cubase as the Artist series of requiring you to work in automation lanes.

The S3 looks lovely if you have the space, but I'm not convinced it offers anything much above the Artist Mix for me personally. In some ways a better solution than the s3 for me would be 2 Mixes, one set to 8-fader mode, and the other set to single-channel mode, flipping between auxes, CCs etc. Like the S3, it takes up a lot more space though, obviously.


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## jamwerks (Aug 11, 2015)

Wouldn't that be nice if Yamaha/Steinberg would come out with an Artist Mix look-alike that was tightly connected to Cubendo. That said, I wonder if a Nuage system could control CC's with it's motorized faders?


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## timtom (Jan 4, 2016)

Anhtu said:


> Where have you seen or heard about a hack for the S3 so one can have faders for CCs ? Love to try it out...


you can see a video of trevor here where he shows his "hacked" S3...


I'm also trying to find out where and how to "hack" it and get it to work as a midi cc controller but so far no luck and avid says it doesn't work....yeah right ;o)


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## Coldsound (Jan 4, 2016)

timtom said:


> you can see a video of trevor here where he shows his "hacked" S3...
> 
> 
> I'm also trying to find out where and how to "hack" it and get it to work as a midi cc controller but so far no luck and avid says it doesn't work....yeah right ;o)



I've read that he use plogue bidule to hack it...


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## timtom (Jan 5, 2016)

Coldsound said:


> I've read that he use plogue bidule to hack it...


Do you still remember where you read this?

I've searched everywhere on the internet to find a document or guide how to change some (or all) S3 Faders to be able to send CC Midi Commands but I can't find anything and it seems only Trevor Morris was able to do this.


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## Mishabou (Jan 5, 2016)

timtom said:


> Do you still remember where you read this?
> 
> I've searched everywhere on the internet to find a document or guide how to change some (or all) S3 Faders to be able to send CC Midi Commands but I can't find anything and it seems only Trevor Morris was able to do this.



I believe you don't need the hack anymore as the new version of Eucon will let you spill top encoders to faders.

So in order to have it set up like Trevor Morris, simply lock the number of faders you want for CC using the Eucon app then press Quick Control and flip top encoders to faders on S3.

I have moved to the S6 since so i have no way to test this....


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## timtom (Jan 5, 2016)

Anhtu said:


> I believe you don't need the hack anymore as the new version of Eucon will let you spill top encoders to faders.
> 
> So in order to have it set up like Trevor Morris, simply lock the number of faders you want for CC using the Eucon app then press Quick Control and flip top encoders to faders on S3.
> 
> I have moved to the S6 since so i have no way to test this....



Hey Anhtu! Thank you very much for the info! That would be awesome, I will try it out tomorrow and tell you if it worked ;o)


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## colony nofi (Jan 5, 2016)

Hi Guys,
I'm trying to do something very similar to this right now with an MC Mix - and have yet to get it working.
Does anyone have an (up to date) tutorial on getting it working?
What I'm hoping for is to use 3 faders on the left for dialog, temp score and my score levels, and then the last 5 faders for midi CC control. 
To date, I've got quick controls PARTIALLY working - they control kontakt, but for some reason, anything recorded with them using the automation lanes does not show up in the kontakt gui - though it IS changing the sound.
(So - I can hear it go from non-vib to vib, and expression working, using CC103 and CC104 - but this is not shown on the kontakt GUI!)

I've also not got to the stage where I can have more than one fader doing CC control - but I'm still very much just starting out on this and learning as I go. I feel like I'm stabbing in the dark a little.

If it all works, the next step is to try the behringer controller, as the mc-mix belongs in another room .......


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## colony nofi (Jan 5, 2016)

I have had more success - but then other problems 

Success - I've been able to get multiple CC's out accross faders. Unfortunately, locking the first 3 faders to stay as audio faders isn't working at all. I feel like I've come across some bugs in eucon / nuendo implementation, but I'll look further into this. I keep getting double ups of the locked tracks if I'm in that part of the session, and the faders don't remain audio faders when I flip the other channel to CC's. I'm not sure if some of this is by design?

Success - the quick controls DO work inside kontakt - but using Spitfire Mural for instance, some things don't show up on the GUI. CC's 103 & 104 for Dynamics and Vibrato do alter the sound, but don't show up in the GUI. But using CC23 for the tree mic DOES alter the GUI as expected.

Can anyone lend any ideas?

Many thanks! Brendan.


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## colony nofi (Jan 5, 2016)

Further Clarification.
It seems everything is working ok if I'm NOT trying to lock a couple of tracks at the start. As soon as I do that, I can no longer get multiple CC's across faders. If i take away the locked tracks, everything works as expected - aside from the GUI inside kontakt for certain CC's.

To be sure - this is my method.
Setup quick controls for the CC's I want to control
On the Artist, press and hold the EQ button for 3 seconds. Then press flip, then shift flip - and this gets the CC's on the faders. 
BUT - if I lock say Dialog to fader2, Temp Music to fader 2 and music master to fader 3, I can only control one CC at a time on the midi channel I select. 
Further, the locked tracks can re-appear on the faders if I'm in a section of the project which contains one of those tracks (which I just find a very strange design decision).

Any further ideas on this?

Cheers! Brendan.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 6, 2016)

But I believe that Trevor Morris is using half of his S3 as a standard midi controller and not as an automation controller which is what Eucon allows in Cubase so I think there must be something else that he's doing. I believe he may have mentioned it in his SCL lecture (his S3 hack is pretty much the only secret he didn't disclose) but he does use midi editing controls on his touchscreen which only work for midi regions and not midi as automation so he must be using it somehow as a midi controller or else he wouldn't be able to use those controls. Perhaps he found a way to connect with Eucon in something like Max or Bidule and then translate the messages into midi CC's but I doubt that's possible.


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## timtom (Jan 6, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> But I believe that Trevor Morris is using half of his S3 as a standard midi controller and not as an automation controller which is what Eucon allows in Cubase so I think there must be something else that he's doing. I believe he may have mentioned it in his SCL lecture (his S3 hack is pretty much the only secret he didn't disclose) but he does use midi editing controls on his touchscreen which only work for midi regions and not midi as automation so he must be using it somehow as a midi controller or else he wouldn't be able to use those controls. Perhaps he found a way to connect with Eucon in something like Max or Bidule and then translate the messages into midi CC's but I doubt that's possible.



Yes, I think you are right... guess we never know


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## Mishabou (Jan 8, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> But I believe that Trevor Morris is using half of his S3 as a standard midi controller and not as an automation controller which is what Eucon allows in Cubase so I think there must be something else that he's doing. I believe he may have mentioned it in his SCL lecture (his S3 hack is pretty much the only secret he didn't disclose) but he does use midi editing controls on his touchscreen which only work for midi regions and not midi as automation so he must be using it somehow as a midi controller or else he wouldn't be able to use those controls. Perhaps he found a way to connect with Eucon in something like Max or Bidule and then translate the messages into midi CC's but I doubt that's possible.



To be honest, i don't see the point of loosing 8 motorized faders from a $5K console for midi cc. Just get the JL Cooper Master Fader, it has excellent faders (not motorized but for strictly cc usage, it's not a problem), built like a tank and as a cc controller it does a hell of a lot more that an S3.

I was using an S3 with the JL Cooper and an iPad...a truly killer trio!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 8, 2016)

Anhtu said:


> To be honest, i don't see the point of loosing 8 motorized faders from a $5K console for midi cc. Just get the JL Cooper Master Fader, it has excellent faders (not motorized but for strictly cc usage, it's not a problem), built like a tank and as a cc controller it does a hell of a lot more that an S3.
> 
> I was using an S3 with the JL Cooper and an iPad...a truly killer trio!



Well that's all that Trevor needs it for. I don't think he has more than 8 faders in PT to adjust since his stems all stay at 0 so it's basically just for dialogue, click, etc. Not for mixing. He used to only have an Artist Control (which he probably somehow also hacked for the non automation midi CC's) so he was probably having to switch it back and forth between Cubase and PT. I think going to the S3 just simplified things for him without having to get 2 separate units.

(And yes, I am a big fan of Trevor Morris's studio and have been following the changes he's made in it for quite a few years  )


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## timtom (Jan 8, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Well that's all that Trevor needs it for. I don't think he has more than 8 faders in PT to adjust since his stems all stay at 0 so it's basically just for dialogue, click, etc. Not for mixing. He used to only have an Artist Control (which he probably somehow also hacked for the non automation midi CC's) so he was probably having to switch it back and forth between Cubase and PT. I think going to the S3 just simplified things for him without having to get 2 separate units.
> 
> (And yes, I am a big fan of Trevor Morris's studio and have been following the changes he's made in it for quite a few years  )


...was already thinking you work there ...with all the detailed knowledge...
..had high hopes you have details on how he hacked his S3... so sadly back to bribing his housekeeper


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 8, 2016)

timtom said:


> ...was already thinking you work there ...with all the detailed knowledge...
> ..had high hopes you have details on how he hacked his S3... so sadly back to bribing his housekeeper



Maybe someday I'll have the chance to work there 

Well Synthetic handles Trevor's touchscreen so maybe also handles the S3. Not sure. Maybe he could shed some light.


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## Coldsound (Jan 9, 2016)

Sorry for my late reply but I couldn't remember where I got the info. Gerhard is right, it's on the SCL lecture, and I'm pretty sure he just say that he use bidule to hack it (otherwise it was a Facebook post). But he was also offering his touchscreen setup in exchange of hiring his specialist engineer to actually set it up. It might be the same guy. You might want to shoot him a quick question... (and, yes, I don't remember his name, but I'm sure Gerhard does :D )


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 9, 2016)

Coldsound said:


> Sorry for my late reply but I couldn't remember where I got the info. Gerhard is right, it's on the SCL lecture, and I'm pretty sure he just say that he use bidule to hack it (otherwise it was a Facebook post). But he was also offering his touchscreen setup in exchange of hiring his specialist engineer to actually set it up. It might be the same guy. You might want to shoot him a quick question... (and, yes, I don't remember his name, but I'm sure Gerhard does :D )



Yep, like I said, it's Synthetic (Jeff Laity). Trevor seems to be very open about the touchscreen but not so much with the S3 which is why I'm not sure if Jeff would be able to comment.


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## seabass (Feb 25, 2018)

Late to the game, but to control midi cc you can set up dummy midi tracks and assign them to the artist mix faders, filter cc7 in Plogue Bidule and send them back into the Seq.


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