# "Superhero Movies have 'Blighted Culture'"



## JohnG (Oct 12, 2020)

Alan Moore Gives Rare Interview: ‘Watchmen’ Creator Talks New Project ‘The Show’, How Superhero Movies Have “Blighted Culture” & Why He Wants Nothing To Do With Comics


EXCLUSIVE: As the creator of Watchmen, V For Vendetta and many more celebrated comic series, Alan Moore is one of the industry’s biggest names, but his frosty relationship with the film adaptations…




deadline.com


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## col (Oct 12, 2020)

Yep . Boring as Batshit.


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## jononotbono (Oct 12, 2020)

The Boys TV show is hands down the best super hero thing to have ever happened. There’s nothing like it. And it’s definitely not for anyone sensitive.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 12, 2020)

Take it from the man. I think he's spot on. Particularly in regards to escapism and political irresponsibility.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 12, 2020)

I have to admit the irony here is great.

He's complaining about Trump as some "neo nazi" effectively, but his hatred of capeshit hits all the beats that neo nazis and the alt-right throw at it.

Insert meme here








Still though, he is right. Superheroes are a completely-stupid concept to be honest. I never liked them. They are basically the antithesis of the kinds of heroes imagined by...basically every culture on Earth. Without this world of consumerism and "childlike irresponsibility forever!", they would have died out a long time ago. But we don't have a real culture anymore, so childish bullshit can thrive.

There is nothing more cringe than "adult" takes on superheroes. Their rise in popularity is directly proportionate to the rise of the soyboys, the "manchildren".






What people really need to be lining up to see is more Bourne films, tbh


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## GtrString (Oct 12, 2020)

Same old story, the creators are full of idealism, but the production companies just want the money. Art vs commerce.

Marvel films has certainly ruined many opportunities for other types of films, serious films ect., because they have vaccuumed the budgets.

It does hurt variety, and Alan Moore is a good man to make that statement.


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## jononotbono (Oct 13, 2020)

I would suggest, to anybody jaded by the whole super heroes genre, that they go and watch The Boys.

“Heroes”? 😂

The guy that plays the Superman character is called Homelander. He wears an American flag for a cape and is cynical, arrogant, psychotic, kills innocent people, is obsessed with breast feeding, and is, well, I think I’ve said too much already! 😂

Finally, the real portrayal of Superman has been uncovered on the screen. I won’t say anything else because it would ruin the joy of what happens but yeah, it’s brilliant.


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## dcoscina (Oct 13, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I would suggest, to anybody jaded by the whole super heroes genre, that they go and watch The Boys.
> 
> “Heroes”? 😂
> 
> ...


The Boys season one was somewhat of a revelation. Uncompromising, bitter and cynical of the whole superhero mystique. And probably closer to the reality of what super beings would really be like. 

I feel as though season two, was perhaps taking things a bit too far which, given the show, is saying a lot. I need to re watch season 2 again but I think it’s becoming what it reviles in some ways. Great cast however led by Dredd himself Karl urban (Dredd was an underrated film imho).


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## Daryl (Oct 13, 2020)

Yeah, but multiple heads exploding. That was worth seeing..!


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## J-M (Oct 13, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> The Boys TV show is hands down the best super hero thing to have ever happened. There’s nothing like it. And it’s definitely not for anyone sensitive.



I highly recommend that you read the original comic, which imo is better. S1 of the show was decent though...


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## penfever (Oct 13, 2020)

Re: The Boys ... when you flip a trope on its head, it's still a trope, just upside down. If we hadn't all been fed superhero movies to the nth degree, we wouldn't find inversions of the story such 'fun', if that's the word for destroying one's few remaining ideals. Moore's Watchmen was actually one of the first proper inversions of the hero archetype, which is part of why he's revered today (although The Defenders, from Marvel, was pretty great too ... doubt you'll see a film version of that anytime soon ...)

Moore did fantastic work in the eighties and nineties, although I'm less a fan of the more recent stuff I've read of his. But his cantankerous, isolationist "DIY" attitude is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Mindlessly 'canceling' a genre diverse enough to include The Dark Knight, Hancock, Chronicle and Ranma 1/2 is silly, especially for a guy who made his name by working WITHIN the system to drive change (see Swamp Thing).

These are hard times for many -- if you derive joy from a show, by all means, watch that show. Don't let someone else rain on your parade. That said, mindful consumption, deliberately exposing yourself to challenging work and new ideas, is the best way to mature as an artist of any kind.


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## asherpope (Oct 13, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> soyboys


Speaking of cringe...


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## Matt Damon (Oct 13, 2020)

asherpope said:


> Speaking of cringe...



Yes, that's why I brought them up


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 13, 2020)

I think it was Karl Marx who said 'Religion is the opaite of the masses'.

I don't normally have much truck with Marx, but if he were alive today I think he might instead say, 'Netflix is the opiate of the masses'. (OK, perhaps the word 'television' would be better than 'Netflix' in that sentence - but you get my drift).

There is so much stuff out there screaming for your attention it has made me really selective about what, if anything, I watch. My wife and I have become positively Victorian, and on a relaxing evening she paints, and I am on the piano and the TV is off. If someone nicked the TV, I'd be tempted to not bother replacing it.

Back in the day you got one Superman movie every 5 years, so it was something to look forward to, even if it wasn't particualrly good. It was an event as much as a film. And now it seems too much of a mediocre thing can be awfullll

These days, you are positively tripping over VFX laden filler, so much so even my 12 year old son, who is the target market of this stuff, cannot abide it. (He was invited to go see 'Endgame' with his school friends family - no thanks, it's boring he replied).

If they never made another superhero movie - that would be great.....


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## Matt Damon (Oct 13, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> My wife and I have become positively Victorian, and on a relaxing evening she paints, and I am on the piano and the TV is off. If someone nicked the TV, I'd be tempted to not bother replacing it.



Based


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 13, 2020)

penfever said:


> But his cantankerous, isolationist "DIY" attitude is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Mindlessly 'canceling' a genre diverse enough to include The Dark Knight, Hancock, Chronicle and Ranma 1/2 is silly, especially for a guy who made his name by working WITHIN the system to drive change (see Swamp Thing).



I don't see how it's mindless to be honest. He's renouncing it, he doesn't like it any more, he sees a fundamental issue with it. His stance has evolved, and it's with the utmost legitimacy since it's coming from a guy who already tried to push the envelope as far as it could be pushed. People have this weird idea of consistency, even if it means moral or intellectual desaster. You're not supposed to switch gears, change your stance or be 100% consequent. I think he's been there, done it and at his age, he's able to draw a definite conclusion for himself.


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## asherpope (Oct 13, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> Yes, that's why I brought them up


Using the term is actually more cringe. I assume it's guys who think of themselves as 'alphas' who are big fans of it


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## Dirtgrain (Oct 13, 2020)

J-M said:


> I highly recommend that you read the original comic, which imo is better. S1 of the show was decent though...


said no comic book fan ever


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## Consona (Oct 13, 2020)

Well, the only interesting and outstanding comicbook films I've seen in the last decade were the DC films from Zack Snyder, who only got backlashed and dragged for what he had done, so fck this current imbecile comicbook culture. (At least his version of Justice League is coming, thank god.)

And I thought Joker was a breath of fresh air into the genre full of badly written villains played by incredible actors, and running, jumping and punching around instead of having some compelling story.
The third act of Joker was pure cinematic joy, way more thrilling than all those huge budget Disney flicks.


Regarding Moore, I like him a lot, but his criticizing from the stance of ignorance is just nonsense. He hasn't seen a comicbook movie since 1989, yet let's everyone know how bad those new films are. He likes to do it, but, what kind of reasonability is there in it? ...Hey Alan, I haven't read any of your books, but they suck, man!


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## denstrow (Oct 13, 2020)

Chronicle was good too, not a lot of mentions...


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## JonS (Oct 13, 2020)

The decline of the western world is a myth. The world never evolved so there is nothing to decline from. For almost all individuals time reveals the inability to attain expectation and you can’t pay with credit card only your deposited supply of hope. Tragedy awaits everyone.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Oct 13, 2020)

Some say superheroes are new westerns. But I'd much rather watch westerns. It's impossible to get excited about any of these superhero -themed things nowadays (imho). I can't even watch a trailer in a cinema without rolling my eyes and whispering: "are you kidding me. what? again?" seeing the same plot over and over and over when we could have had an actually great big budget film in its place, but because it's much riskier to invest into other films (including the disappearing mid-range), all we get is avengers spin-off number 25. (looks like 25 might be an actual number at this point).

Out of all of those, I'm not ashamed to admit that I DO enjoyed The Dark Knight trilogy (mostly because of it being Chris Nolan's vision and a great cast, including Morgan Freeman and Michael Caine), and some others like Joker and V For Vendetta, but all of those are more "grounded" with little to no actual superhero stuff (which I don't care about).

Can't remember the last Marvel film I watched. Guardians of the Galaxy might be it, which was fun, btw. I have no memories of anything in that universe other than Guardians (again, director + cast won me over) and some action scenes from one of the Captain Americas.

Sometimes I feel like an idiot when I see a trailer to yet another superhero film and hear people talking around like "Woooooow!! It's a freaking Iron MAN, DUDE!!" and those are some grown ass dudes. Weird, because I don't get it. I mean, haven't you seen it/had enough already? It's like a fast-food factory but with movies. The same goes for star wars (I DO enjoy the very first two films, but again - CAST). Or any of those young adult films like Hunger games or maze runners. I just don't get it at all. I tried watching hunger games but the acting and the plot with dialogues was so atrocious I couldn't make it past the first 35minutes. Transformers, too.


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## dcoscina (Oct 13, 2020)

denstrow said:


> Chronicle was good too, not a lot of mentions...


Very underrated. No music score either which is interesting. Probably because of the found footage style it was made in.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 13, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> Based



?


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## JonS (Oct 13, 2020)

Mark_Kouznetsov said:


> Some say superheroes are new westerns. But I'd much rather watch westerns. It's impossible to get excited about any of these superhero -themed things nowadays (imho). I can't even watch a trailer in a cinema without rolling my eyes and whispering: "are you kidding me. what? again?" seeing the same plot over and over and over when we could have had an actually great big budget film in its place, but because it's much riskier to invest into other films (including the disappearing mid-range), all we get is avengers spin-off number 25. (looks like 25 might be an actual number at this point).
> 
> Out of all of those, I'm not ashamed to admit that I DO enjoyed The Dark Knight trilogy (mostly because of it being Chris Nolan's vision and a great cast, including Morgan Freeman and Michael Caine), and some others like Joker and V For Vendetta, but all of those are more "grounded" with little to no actual superhero stuff (which I don't care about).
> 
> ...


I am completely bored by everything and anything superhero. The Boys is boring. All these big tentpole franchises are the same and just boring. I have no interest in superhero anything. I don't see this trend changing either, sadly. Studios think superheroes are easy cash and don't realize there are more creative ways to make big money.


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## jononotbono (Oct 13, 2020)

penfever said:


> If we hadn't all been fed superhero movies to the nth degree, we wouldn't find inversions of the story such 'fun',



That’s the entire reason why The Boys is so great! If this was made before all the Marvel films etc then I’m not sure how the public would have perceived it! Let’s face it, it’s not a gentle and peaceful watch is it! “Grim” is a word I’d use. all these people with super abilities and actually not having to answer for their actions. Finally not all being these goodie too shoe doo-gooder type characters?! It’s great timing.

I’m so glad it’s been made and it’s so detailed as well. They’ve created a universe in the world of everybody being saturated, even take the piss on how many movies they make (and even show them making a super hero movie). I’m so happy it’s been made. It’s really well written and there are so many jokes being made about the whole genre.

Where the Super Hero genre goes after this is beyond me but like I said previously, if you are feeling jaded and you used to like Super Hero films, then you should dip your toes back in and watch it because at the very least, it will remind you why you loved that stuff in the first place or remind you why you hated it and end up laughing more than you (at this point) will ever imagine.

As for reading the comics instead of watching it... why? That’s like saying you should read Lord of the Rings instead of watching Peter Jackson’s trilogy. They are both separate mediums. One shouldn’t need to read anything to watch a film or a TV show. I guess I should only read Ernest Cline’s book Ready Player One instead of watching the film, forget that failure of a movie Jurassic Park, read Crichton’s book instead, and then there’s that shit show called The Walking Dead. Stick to the Graphic Novels instead. It’s ok to enjoy either. Or none.
Whatever. 😂


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## mscp (Oct 13, 2020)

JonS said:


> The decline of the western world is a myth. The world never evolved so there is nothing to decline from. For almost all individuals time reveals the inability to attain expectation and you can’t pay with credit card only your deposited supply of hope. Tragedy awaits everyone.



I actually thought you were being serious for 2 seconds. Then I thought...nah. 




JonS said:


> I am completely bored by everything and anything superhero. The Boys is boring. All these big tentpole franchises are the same and just boring. I have no interest in superhero anything. I don't see this trend changing either, sadly. Studios think superheroes are easy cash and don't realize there are more creative ways to make big money.



I agree with you - mostly. --- _I can't comment about anything I haven't watched though._

I often go to the cinemas, but have walked out on multiple occasions. My "rule" applies to all genres. If a movie can't lure me in within a few minutes, I get up and go spend my free time elsewhere. But I digress.

I have watched great super hero movies - just not anything recently. I loved 1989's Batman, 2008's Batman - Dark Knight, and Despicable Me (Hey! It's a "superhero" movie too ).


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## givemenoughrope (Oct 13, 2020)

They haven't helped!


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## Easy Pickens (Oct 13, 2020)

I see them as modern greek myths. Once upon a time whether you had a full classical education or not, you could reference Theseus or Sisyphus and it was shorthand for an entire situation and one specific archetype's response to it. Nowadays there's Batman or Spiderman (or Iron Man, or Yoda for that matter). Whether you care anything about them, almost everybody knows the gist, relatives killed, a vow to fight crime, superpowers or a fancy car. 

I think there's something about a shared mythology that's vital to communication, and it's not just the decline of interest in Greco-Roman mythology that's left a void. Increasingly multicultural societies don't even have sacred stories in common. I only have the vaguest notion of who Vishnu or Kali is, but my Indian neighbor speaks fluent Star Wars, so abstracts can be translated through that medium. 

As far as the movies themselves, they're hit or miss. Many seem to have a contempt for the audience, at least to me. Others I find highly enjoyable. The new golden age of comic book movies came around the time I was very recently separated and couldn't watch sad movies, happy movies, etc. etc. so my sympathetic view may include gratitude for the hours my brain was shut off. 

I thought that last Thor movie had some really sharp subtext to it, so maybe it comes down to the filmmakers, and whether they can tell a story in any genre.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 13, 2020)

Superhero films, like all fiction, can be a great escape. They're fun, and many are genuinely enjoyable, if not necessarily memorable, and few overall are genuinely meaningful. A good story is a good story. Science fiction, done well, is both escapism AND explores one or more issues in a different light, outside the bounds of our current reality.

The extreme popularity and the impact on the film industry in general are, however, problematic. However, it's a fad that will eventually subside, even if it lingers for another decade.

If Victorian period pieces became overwhelmingly popular, people would complain about that, too. Or any form of art that shines bright and has a side effect of dimming others.


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## bill5 (Oct 13, 2020)

Exactly....a lot of the counter-reaction to comic book movies I think is that since the advent of tech that can make the stories and character's abilities etc look so real, and the stories and characters are if nothing else so colorful, they quickly became insanely popular, and the movie industry isn't stupid, they're going to ride that gravy train all they can. But as a result people (finally) got sick of them. Good. There were some fun ones, but I've long been sick of them too, though mostly for diff reasons.

Personally, I grew up reading comics as a kid and three things annoyed the hell out of me and quickly turned me off to them:

- First they became less and less faithful to the source material, often to the point of nausea. I could give countless examples large and small but anyone who knows the stuff knows what I mean.

- Second, with Marvel at least, they were far too snarky and/or "jokey," also often to the point of nausea. EVERYONE is a comedian and it's one long string of one-liners and verbal jabs after another (even to people on the same team) and the whole movie is like one big wink-wink joke. I'm all for SOME humor but most of the actual characters in the books weren't that jokey...in fact some weren't jokey at all...and there was a balance there. It gave it all much more of a credible, believable feel (despite the super power premise). But the movies made it clear they don't care about that at all

- Finally, this insistence on making characters and things increasingly "dark." Yeah like that hasn't been beat to death.

The animated DC and Marvel series were both far, FAR better at doing it right. I guess with real actors and directors, all the egos get in the way.

But basically I hope they slow down the making of them; maybe if they start doing bad enough that it slows down. I wouldn't mind the occasional flick...IF it was done right.


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## KerrySmith (Oct 13, 2020)

Basically new cowboys movies aka new swashbuckler epics, etc etc It’s just a format to deliver whatever stories and messages are culturally fashionable at the time.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 13, 2020)

asherpope said:


> Using the term is actually more cringe. I assume it's guys who think of themselves as 'alphas' who are big fans of it



I don't really see the point in taking issue with this unless you're a soyboy tbh fam



Consona said:


> He hasn't seen a comicbook movie since 1989, yet let's everyone know how bad those new films are. He likes to do it, but, what kind of reasonability is there in it? ...Hey Alan, I haven't read any of your books, but they suck, man!



This is a strawman because that's not what he's saying. It doesn't make a difference whether the movies are good or bad.

What he is saying is that it is a symptom of the infantalization of modern man. It is a big issue.

Adults should not really be spending time and money on escapism like this and before anyone says "yeah but the world sucks though and I just need a break from real life". Real life isn't actually supposed to be terrible. What adults are supposed to be doing is building up the environment around us and cultivating it in a way that makes it not just better for us, but for future generations.

Instead, that's not happening now. Instead, adults are remaining childless, void of any creative hobbies (just consume consume consume). Watching superhero films about characters that were designed to entertain 12 year olds or serve as blatant propaganda pieces, collecting plastic figurines, binging netflix, watching sportsball, living in the fantasy world of video games and otherwise just consuming product.

It's like yeah, real life and you're 9 to 5 suck! Newsflash: It's not going to get anything but more depressing and shitty if you just keep running away from it all the time. We have to actually face and deal with these problems if we want life to be better.

And you might say, "Oh well it's not hurting anything" as if a neglect of reality is anything but harmful. The big problem with all this stuff, especially video games, is that the kinds of people who in the 17th century would have built castles, created beautiful renaissance paintings, made incredible scientific discoveries, sailed oceans, had large families, translating books of ancient wisdom, grew enough food and raised animals to support their own families, etc. instead wind up making 34-part YouTube series on how to get all the rings in Sonic The Hedgehog or explaining to you the complete history of Westeros or some other world that doesn't even exist during all hours when they're not just driving pizza or some other meaningless job they hate with all their soul.

Lastly, the interests of the public being age-appropriate is the strongest indicator of whether your civilization is productive or consumptive outside of just looking at your daily surroundings. All consumptive civs (like Rome) wound up collapsing and we're heading for that.

There is a reason that Paw Patrol appeals to 5 year olds, but not 10s. And why like...punk music appeals to 16s but not 10s.

It used to be that punk music, much like skateboarding, comics, DnD, etc. didn't appeal to 25 year olds any longer. Now, they're all into it. To use skateboarding for example, when it first came about in the 70s or so, it was immediately something that appealed to the youth. It didn't appeal to people really in their 20s and certainly not older.

So that's why most functional people cringe when they see a 30+ year old guy ripping around on a board. It's like, technically speaking it's not actually hurting anything and it's certainly better to be outside doing something physical...but on the other hand, it (much like video games, nerd stuff, comic books, Mahvel films, and so on) 9/10 times it's a sure sign that this guy is a piece of shit manchild permanently stuck in his teen years who contributes basically nothing to society and probably still has the political opinions of a punk-rocking 15-year-old to boot.

The negative reaction people have toward this type of thing is primal and frankly, if you're not feeling it yourself (at least a little) is a sign of demoralization yourself tbh.

I used to be like that in my early 20s when the SNES was hot. I was really into gaming, still watching animated series, and stuff and then saw my handsome visage staring back in me the blackness of the screen when it was loading and thinking "Is this really what a man my age should be spending his time on? Should I really be taking this as seriously and be as invested in it as I am?"


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 13, 2020)

I'm sure, however, that you _can_ actually play a video game or watch a trash movie _here and there_ without being a piece of shit that doesn't contribute anything to society.
I mean, there's still plenty of time left to go and conceive some children (frankly the only "contribution" to this society most people ever make) afterwards, right?


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## Henu (Oct 14, 2020)

Hey, I eat soy every now and then and love video games. :( And boy, does this all really tickle me from a wrong place.

That being said, @Matt Damon- while some of your points do have some legitimity IMO, most of them fall into category of "bah, youth of today, old man yells at cloud". You seem to draw a very strict line on what is acceptable at certain age while setting the boundaries yourself based on some imaginary ideals of the "past", whatever that is. In all your high expectations it seems that you've lost a good chunk of what is actually worth living, and by the gods I sincerely hope that all my own elitism doesn't do the same slowly for me the older I become.

I'm turning 42 next week. I've been into metal music since my pre-teens and I am still looking like a metalhead, although my clothes are now cleaner and less worn-looking they used to be 20 years ago. And I wash my long hair more often, or what's left of it nowadays. So, I look like a man-child to you. _Dat_ cringe!

I've also always been also into video games, and in fact have been working in the games industry as a composer for the last sixteen years. I'm extremely enthusiastic about things, have a huge (on the verge of autism) passion on music and especially game music and study it on daily basis in order to do my job even better. My video game and music passion defines my whole life, and I have never lost my almost child-like enthusiasm on both and I never will as long as I live if it's up to me. Losing that passion would mean death.

So, on your category, I'm probably the worst dude ever. I look like a fat metalhead, I work on games, I'm a fucking RPG nerd and on top of that I eat that goddamn soy instead of that manly beef. And the worst, I make illegitimate assumptions on people's lives in the internet!

However, that doesn't yet stop me for contributing to society, delighting people around the world with my music, raising my children to be as educated as possible and paying those goddamn taxes without having ever been living on welfare. To educate myself, to study as much as I can and to generally rise above myself in both spiritual and physical senses, although the latter one is still horribly work in progress.
And if I had time do videos for Youtube on how to get the secret rings on Sonic, I'd probably do it because IT IS FUN. While all play and no work makes Henu a very dull boy, all work and no play makes me just fucking lose it. Trust me, I know how to burn yourself out _really _bad.

Oh, and if you honestly brag about not liking punk anymore after reaching a certain age, that's just really fucking sad.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 14, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm sure, however, that you _can_ actually play a video game or watch a trash movie _here and there_ without being a piece of shit that doesn't contribute anything to society.
> I mean, there's still plenty of time left to go and conceive some children (frankly the only "contribution" to this society most people ever make) afterwards, right?



Yeah it's not like I'm saying you should just flat out never do this or else you need to rope

but that doesn't change the fact that it's not good, and most people today's entire identities are formed around it.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 14, 2020)

What the world really needs is more unboxing videos.....


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## Matt Damon (Oct 14, 2020)

Henu said:


> I've also always been also into video games, and in fact have been working in the games industry as a composer for the last sixteen years. I'm extremely enthusiastic about things, have a huge (on the verge of autism) passion on music and especially game music and study it on daily basis in order to do my job even better. My video game and music passion defines my whole life,





Henu said:


> *My video game and music passion defines my whole life*





Henu said:


> So, I look like a man-child to you











Henu said:


> And if I had time do videos for Youtube on how to get the secret rings on Sonic, I'd probably do it because IT IS FUN.



Eating a lot of junk food, drinking lots of booze, snorting coke with Charlie Sheen, tons of no-strings-attached sex are all loads of fun too.

And yet they come with a price down the road...



Henu said:


> Oh, and if you honestly brag about not liking punk anymore after reaching a certain age, that's just really fucking sad.



To be honest bro, I never liked punk to start with. Punk is awful.


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## Henu (Oct 14, 2020)

Do strap-ons during sex count as "strings-attached"? Asking for a friend.

That being said, instead of dropping names of random drug addicts I've partied with, I'm just going to continue working on the woodwinds arrangement for this game music piece I'm working on. Because while I find arguing with random nobodies in the internet as fun as a barrel of monkeys, I still have responsibilities and that dreaded passion to do music instead, you know, brah.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 14, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> Yeah it's not like I'm saying you should just flat out never do this or else you need to rope
> 
> but that doesn't change the fact that it's not good, and most people today's entire identities are formed around it.



Well it goes back to the old Horkheimer-Adorno thing, doesn't it, the critique on the culture industry. Entertainment, consumerism and mass media are there to sedate people and create false needs, dreams and cravings in order to make them tame and deflect from their real cultural, economic and societal needs and issues. I think there's definitely a lot of truth in that and we might be seeing the peak of that in today's society.

Obviously it's completely lost on the average Joe out there, but still, a composed, observant and responsible mind should be able to make conscious decisions instead of just being _programmed_, and should be able to take all things in adequate moderation. There's nothing inherently bad about entertainment, as long as one uses it for the one thing it's good for, and doesn't neglect anything else in favor of it.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 14, 2020)

Henu said:


> Do strap-ons during sex count as "strings-attached"? Asking for a friend.



That's a better question for Jimmy Kimmel I think



Henu said:


> Because while I find arguing with random nobodies in the internet as fun as a barrel of monkeys, I still have responsibilities and that dreaded passion to do music instead, you know, brah.



K


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## asherpope (Oct 14, 2020)

I'll have you know I prefer to be known as a 'cuck' @Matt Damon, or failing that 'libtard', 'snowflake' or 'simp'


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## Consona (Oct 14, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> This is a strawman because that's not what he's saying. It doesn't make a difference whether the movies are good or bad.
> 
> What he is saying is that it is a symptom of the infantalization of modern man. It is a big issue.


"Superhero" is a form that you can fill with various content.

You can make shitty bland superhero movies with pseudo-drama and pseudo-depth the whole family can enjoy; or you can make superhero films that will put you before some harsh existential and moral questions, make you think about your life, your place in this world, whose villains embody various ideologies and world-views, reflect non-trivial issues, some socio-political climate, etc...

So Moore saying he hasn't seen a superhero movie since 1989 while adding that these films infantilize you just doesn't add up.

Shakespeare used supernatural and divine elements and figures in his plays, yet I wouldn't say his work infantilizes the audience.




Matt Damon said:


>


Jeez, this picture. I wonder why has this became the proper image of the modern man? This fricking trendy fashion of young guys wearing dwarven full beard and Hitlerjugend haircuts.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 14, 2020)

asherpope said:


> I'll have you know I prefer to be known as a 'cuck' @Matt Damon, or failing that 'libtard', 'snowflake' or 'simp'



Noted


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 14, 2020)

Consona said:


> "Superhero" is a form that you can fill with various content.
> 
> You can make shitty bland superhero movies with pseudo-drama and pseudo-depth the whole family can enjoy; or you can make superhero films that will put you before some harsh existential and moral questions, make you think about your life, your place in this world, whose villains embody various ideologies and world-views, reflect non-trivial issues, some socio-political climate, etc...
> 
> ...



That's not a good comparison to make at all. This is not about supernatural elements period, but about superheroes. And 90% of those films _are_ infantile as hell.


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## Consona (Oct 14, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's not a good comparison to make at all. This is not about supernatural elements period, but about superheroes. And 90% of those films _are_ infantile as hell.


Greco-roman dieties or superheroes. What difference does it make? When a story is good, it doesn't matter what the backdrop is.

Iliad and Odyssey are full of literally superheroes and gods and monsters and stuff. So what?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 14, 2020)

Consona said:


> Greco-roman dieties or superheroes. What difference does it make? When a story is good, it doesn't matter what the backdrop is.
> 
> Iliad and Odyssey are full of literally superheroes and gods and monsters and stuff. So what?



But that's exactly the point, the stories aren't good. Most of the time this superhero stuff is such a froth, so incredibly lightweight and puerile that it kind of does say something about all the grown ass people who still flock to the cinemas like mad every time another one of these movies comes out. That's the whole point of discussion - what does it say about a society in which thirty-somethings can't get enough of material that in less recent times 17 year olds would already have started gravitating away from due to it's shallowness and juvenile imagination?


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## Dirtgrain (Oct 14, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> And 90% of those films _are_ infantile as hell.


Collectively, we are infantile, always hoping for a parent figure to come in and fix everything. Maybe the trend of films with super heroes speaks to the degree of how messed up we feel the world is.


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## Wake (Oct 14, 2020)

A lot of mythology is history + experience + didactic material in coded language. The artistic value is secondary. 

Superheroes are super superficial in comparison. Incredible to see people draw comparisons based on both being "stories"...


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## Technostica (Oct 14, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> It used to be that punk music, much like skateboarding, comics, DnD, etc. didn't appeal to 25 year olds any longer. Now, they're all into it. To use skateboarding for example, when it first came about in the 70s or so, it was immediately something that appealed to the youth. It didn't appeal to people really in their 20s and certainly not older.
> So that's why most functional people cringe when they see a 30+ year old guy ripping around on a board. It's like, technically speaking it's not actually hurting anything and it's certainly better to be outside doing something physical...but on the other hand, it (much like video games, nerd stuff, comic books, Mahvel films, and so on) 9/10 times it's a sure sign that this guy is a piece of shit manchild permanently stuck in his teen years who contributes basically nothing to society and probably still has the political opinions of a punk-rocking 15-year-old to boot.
> The negative reaction people have toward this type of thing is primal and frankly, if you're not feeling it yourself (at least a little) is a sign of demoralization yourself tbh.


It seems as if you have taken one skateboard stereotype and extrapolated wildly from there.
Life is much more nuanced than what you suggest.
I imagine that there are man-childs in their 30s who still skate but the skating itself isn’t their issue, it’s their overall attitude.
I’m sure there are also well-adjusted people in their 30s who still skate just as they still use mountain bikes, go dancing, rock climbing, you know, have fun.
Harmless visceral physical fun is good.
Dancing can be ecstatic and doesn’t have to be about ecstasy or other drugs or obsessively chasing casual sex.
Mountain biking can be fun and doesn’t have to be about adrenaline junkies.
Skateboarding likewise can be done for the fun of it and the creativity.
I can’t see how that relates to the passive consumption of superhero movies.

I’m wary of people in their 30s and older who have forgotten how to have fun, so have to look down and denigrate those who still feel young and know how to have fun.
The fact that you see a skateboarder who is 30+ and think ‘piece of shit’ speaks volume about you and not skateboarders. 
You come across like a stuffy middle age fart from the 50s who thought that rock ‘n’ roll was degenerate.
Or maybe you live near Santa Monica and are just fed up with the whole Dog Town shtick!
If you want to see a TV series about man-childs then watch Flaked on Netflix with Will Arnett.
It even has a character with a longboard and is based in Venice Beach.


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## Consona (Oct 14, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> But that's exactly the point, the stories aren't good. Most of the time this superhero stuff is such a froth, so incredibly lightweight and puerile that it kind of does say something about all the grown ass people who still flock to the cinemas like mad every time another one of these movies comes out. That's the whole point of discussion - what does it say about a society in which thirty-somethings can't get enough of material that in less recent times 17 year olds would already have started gravitating away from due to it's shallowness and juvenile imagination?





Wake said:


> A lot of mythology is history + experience + didactic material in coded language. The artistic value is secondary.
> 
> Superheroes are super superficial in comparison. Incredible to see people draw comparisons based on both being "stories"...


It's as with everything. A lot of it is kinda ok-ish or trash, some small part is kinda good or great. This goes for any genre, so I don't know why are you demonizing superheroes. A good superhero story is didactic, thought-provoking, engaging and artistic.

You can have shitty shallow sci-fi and awesome sci-fi, shitty western and great western, shitty WW2 movie and incredible WW2 movie,...



People have always consumed trash pulp stories ever since the day the oral tradition was born. Not a lot of people are brainy enough to want something super deep and philosophical and "grown-up".

People were attending fricking gladiator matches for fun where guys were killing each other. Name me any historical period where the majority of average people were engaging in some super-deep leisure time activities. First off they did not have that much free time, second if they had they sure as hell were not reading Plato's treatises on metaphysics or Aristotle's ethics.

Disney is just using this, making huge buck because average people are in love with the superhero genre now. It's a fad. In 1920 - 1950 you had bazillion films about Dracula, Mummy, Frankenstein, Wolfman, Gillman, Invisibleman and I don't know what other men.

It's only few of these filmmakers who actually want to elevate and deepen that stuff, but they would do it in any genre they'd be working in. Some of them are doing comicbook films because they grew up on reading comics. It's natural to cling to things you liked as a kid. That does not mean your product has to be dumb and infantile.
Nolan's The Dark Knight is way better than the majority of "true real serious grown-up drama films". Snyder's Batman v Superman Ultimate Edition is a fricking baroque/shakespearean/mythological gesamtkunstwerk if I've ever seen one.

Where the culture fails is when critics call crap like Thor Ragnarok a modern masterpiece and whatnot.


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## youngpokie (Oct 14, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> That’s the entire reason why The Boys is so great!...
> 
> I’m so glad it’s been made and it’s so detailed as well....



I started watching it on Prime Video last night based on your recommendation and it's really really good! 

The whole idea turned on its head, where super heroes are a bunch of "super egos" - entitled, self-absorbed jerks with wasted potential and oblivious to unintended consequences.

So far (3 episodes) - great, thank you for mentioning it!


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## jononotbono (Oct 14, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> I started watching it on Prime Video last night based on your recommendation and it's really really good!
> 
> The whole idea turned on its head, where super heroes are a bunch of "super egos" - entitled, self-absorbed jerks with wasted potential and oblivious to unintended consequences.
> 
> So far (3 episodes) - great, thank you for mentioning it!



Yeah man, I wouldn't have gone on about it like I did if I didn't think it was exceptional. I instantly loved the whole idea of it. And the more I watch it, the more detail I notice. All the background adverts, merchandise, franchising it out of the asses of modern humanity and to everyone it's just an everyday thing. With the masses thinking these "supes" with god like power and are their personal protectors with intentions to keep world peace (because that's what everyone has been brought up to think these people should be). And they couldn't be any further from the truth. The constant nod to how dog shit social media is and how fake so many people are is spot on.

And let's not forget one of the greatest Super Hero names ever made up, "Lamp Lighter" (he's mentioned in Episode 1 as he's "retired". I instantly started laughing thinking, "Man, that's gotta be one of the gayest Super Hero names ever conceived". When you have got to the end of season 2 (not spoiling anything), you'll know more about that! It's a wonderful thing! Maybe it's just my English humour or something 


And I would hate for anyone to read may above posts and think I am slagging the Super Hero genre. I'm not and I hope they keep getting made. I love the Nolan Trilogy, Iron Man 1, Wonder Woman and a few others. Just like I love action films or Thrillers. I don't love them all. I think people overreact so much about Superhero films. Someone (a friends brother who basically does nothing more in life than read Total Film Magazine on the toilet and watch "Everything wrong with such and such Videos" on YouTube (one of those "I know everything about film but have never worked in the film industry in any capacity types of people) said to me last year, "Marvel have the Monopoly over the film industry". I practically laughed in his face (obviously drinking at the time) and said, "what? With their 23 or 24 films? 24 films in the history of film and you think that's a monopoly? Yeah keep drinking man". Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of Super Hero films that just don't interest me, but that doesn't mean they are shit. We like what we like and I think the conveniences of this modern world, the sheer mountain of entertainment we are all so fortunate and lucky to be able to access and experience with next to zero investment is making some people forget, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WATCH ANY OF THIS STUFF. It's harder to go and make a coffee than it is to choose not to watch something. What a life.


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## mscp (Oct 14, 2020)

This looks like it's going to be super cool.


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## jononotbono (Oct 14, 2020)

Phil81 said:


> This looks like it's going to be super cool.


`
Looks shit.

(Didn't even watch it).


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## mscp (Oct 14, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> `
> Looks shit.
> 
> (Didn't even watch it).


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## Matt Damon (Oct 14, 2020)

Technostica said:


> I imagine that there are man-childs in their 30s who still skate but the skating itself isn’t their issue, it’s their overall attitude.



Yeah, I quite literally said as much.

Except as I said, the assumption that their overall attitude and what not sucking is generally correct as indicated by what they do and enjoy. I feel there's some quote about "knowing a man by his passions" or whatever that I should know here but can't quite remember.



Technostica said:


> You come across like a stuffy middle age fart from the 50s who thought that rock ‘n’ roll was degenerate.



Rock 'n' roll _was_ degenerate. Especially in the 80s. Bro, where have you been?


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## Ollie (Oct 14, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I instantly started laughing thinking, "Man, that's gotta be one of the gayest Super Hero names ever conceived".



What do you mean?


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## Wake (Oct 14, 2020)

Not to speak for anybody else, but I think he means humor exists. I might be wrong.


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## Mornats (Oct 15, 2020)

Interesting discussion. I fall into the gamer, lover of fantasy and sci-fi, watcher of super hero movies camp. Although I do prefer movies that make you think and have some cleverness about them. Shutter Island over Avengers but I enjoy the Marvel movies. I'm 46, make music (play bass live, compose with a DAW), I draw and paint digitally and traditionally. I read, used to write and my day job is in user experience so I guess I contribute by making parts of the internet easier to use. I think I contribute to society quite well. But I get called a man-child because I've shaped my life around me to be able to do the things I enjoy. If it was golf I enjoyed as much (I do play a little), then people would have no problem with it. But as I've chosen something they don't like to do then I'm a problem with society. Heh, fuck you.

I know someone who's in their 30s, has a good job, works hard, walks his dog every day but that's all he does. He has no hobbies, doesn't like much on TV, basically works all evening, has dinner, goes to bed. Doesn't create anything or contribute anything. He "adults" but does nothing. But you know, *he's* the functioning adult. Hmm, I don't think so.


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## penfever (Oct 15, 2020)

Consona said:


> Where the culture fails is when critics call crap like Thor Ragnarok a modern masterpiece and whatnot.



Great point, Consona. I think that what Moore/others in this thread have called a 'problem with the genre' could also be framed, perhaps more tellingly, as a 'failure of the thinking class to engage with the problems inherent to the genre, and/or a failure to make most people care'.

I never blame an audience for liking what they like. The entire purpose of culture is to find audiences where they are, intellectually and emotionally, and feed them. Perhaps develop them or help them mature, but frankly, that's a challenge the audience has to be willing to assume before any creative can rise to meet it. In other words, the reason we no longer have Bergman, Godard or Kurosawa in the mainstream is because there is no longer a space for them in the culture. There's no audience for them, no interest in them, or the kind of ambitious, challenging, politically charged, often revolutionary work they presented to audiences.

Should we blame corporations? I do, in part, because it's profitable to make people feel good (anybody remember Buy'n'Large from WALL-E?) But mostly I blame us. Yes, it's easier to find the bad work than the good. But that was always true. People just used to believe that it was worth the effort to elevate one's taste, rather than dragging the world down to your level. And unlike some in this thread, I DO think it matters, in the long run, if we keep feeding ourselves comfort junk when we know that better fare is available. Would you go on a dieting forum and talk up Cheetos, just because they taste good? And if you did, would that actually be an 'equally valid point of view' ... or is there something to be said for the idea that making oneself wiser, as opposed to more foolish, is an objective virtue?

These days when a filmmaker with a little art-house flavor comes along, that person is elevated far beyond what the work justifies. I submit that Thor: Ragnarok, and the recent fantasia over the work of Taika Waititi in general (Hunt for the Wilderpeople in particular) DOES represent some kind of collective adolescent fantasy. Perhaps its the same appeal to nostalgia that someone of my generation feels when watching Rushmore, or someone of a prior generation felt when watching Harold and Maude. I love Hal Ashby's work (which is still far more daring than Taika's oeuvre), but to attempt to understand it in a vacuum, without an Antonioni (EG) as a counterpoint, is a bit sad.

What's the point of all this? IDK, I just like to talk about movies.  I did kind of stray from the superhero thing, though. Ah well.

Maybe my point is that WE represent the culture vanguard. WE have to go out and champion better, more daring work and resist the temptation to focus our attention on garbage, even to point out that it's garbage.

So go watch Barry Jenkins's work. Go watch Robert Eggers's work. Go watch Joshua Oppenheimer's work. Go watch Paolo Sorrentino's work. And the next time someone brings up Avengers or whatever film you don't care for, instead of yelling at them, wax rhapsodic about truly great recent films and let them know what they're missing.

PS: wrote this while watching GI Joe: the Rise of Cobra. LOL. But in my defense, I had just finished Salesman (1969) and needed to comfort myself.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 15, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Interesting discussion. I fall into the gamer, lover of fantasy and sci-fi, watcher of super hero movies camp. Although I do prefer movies that make you think and have some cleverness about them. Shutter Island over Avengers but I enjoy the Marvel movies. I'm 46, make music (play bass live, compose with a DAW), I draw and paint digitally and traditionally. I read, used to write and my day job is in user experience so I guess I contribute by making parts of the internet easier to use. I think I contribute to society quite well. But I get called a man-child because I've shaped my life around me to be able to do the things I enjoy. If it was golf I enjoyed as much (I do play a little), then people would have no problem with it. But as I've chosen something they don't like to do then I'm a problem with society. Heh, fuck you.
> 
> I know someone who's in their 30s, has a good job, works hard, walks his dog every day but that's all he does. He has no hobbies, doesn't like much on TV, basically works all evening, has dinner, goes to bed. Doesn't create anything or contribute anything. He "adults" but does nothing. But you know, *he's* the functioning adult. Hmm, I don't think so.



I think that people who don't like rock music and don't know how to have any fun are the actual danger to society.


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## Mornats (Oct 15, 2020)

If we all liked the same thing then things will get pretty boring pretty quick. In another thread on here I likened playing video games to watching sports. Same thing. Same benefit to people. Just one has stigma and the other doesn't.


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## FinGael (Oct 15, 2020)

penfever said:


> Great point, Consona. I think that what Moore/others in this thread have called a 'problem with the genre' could also be framed, perhaps more tellingly, as a 'failure of the thinking class to engage with the problems inherent to the genre, and/or a failure to make most people care'.
> 
> I never blame an audience for liking what they like. The entire purpose of culture is to find audiences where they are, intellectually and emotionally, and feed them. Perhaps develop them or help them mature, but frankly, that's a challenge the audience has to be willing to assume before any creative can rise to meet it. In other words, the reason we no longer have Bergman, Godard or Kurosawa in the mainstream is because there is no longer a space for them in the culture. There's no audience for them, no interest in them, or the kind of ambitious, challenging, politically charged, often revolutionary work they presented to audiences.
> 
> ...



I think this has been an interesting conversation. Thank you, everyone. Maybe evoking strong emotions in some, which is perfectly ok to me.

To me, as an esoteric traveler of worlds, the idea of comparing Greek myths to superhero movies feels somewhat naive. The old myths are often stories of deep principles of life and (also collective) human psyche and I haven't been able to find much to compare to those in modern superhero blockbusters.

Yes, there can be many gods or godlike figures in modern superhero blockbusters, but beneath the surface the stories mostly seem to be more like shiny but empty barrels making (a lot of) noise. Our world today is very noisy. An average human mind of a westerner today is busy and noisy, and many times lacking the ability to be truly present and connected to self on a deeper level. Of course there are many brilliant minds in this age of time too, like always have been.

I think that in the western world of today there is so much egocentrism and individualism and as a result the western collective view of the world is shallow, and this is what I also see strongly projected in the current trends in movies. Obviously the big corporations have found their milking cows and try to squeeze every last bit of them before moving to exploit some other topic. The creators in many cases seem to be easily bought. I have met a lot of very talented individuals, with great potential in them, who create things for money in ways that it is obvious that they are not growing to reach their full potential as creators and sentient human beings. Easy life is often more tempting than becoming the greatest version of oneself. The fear of difficulties concerning surviving financially and socially is keeping many from taking the path to create something truly different and original. These paths often are risky, take so much time and work and it is much easier to choose the safer option - especially when it is being served in front of you on a silvery plate.

There is place for everything and entertainment is fine. Personally I find myself seeking creations that are beautiful and truly deep (mostly in spiritual sense). Movies and artistic creations that are made with great talent and which can help you understand, value and respect more yourself, others, nature and life in general. There is so much content being created today, that it would be easy to think that there exists a lot of what my heart is looking for, but they seem to be rare and hard to find...


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## youngpokie (Oct 15, 2020)

penfever said:


> The entire purpose of culture is to find audiences where they are, intellectually and emotionally, and feed them....



This is a really interesting thought. In my opinion, though, culture doesn't have a purpose.

Culture only exists so that society can promote a set of cultural norms/rules that people create to help us deal with each other. But it doesn't have a mind of its own - it's simply a medium, a visualization, a reflection, a mirror - and we the people do the propagating.

The interesting thing about all cultures, as far as I know, is the persistent cult of the exceptional. Exceptional bravery, exceptional strength, leadership, intellect, talent, virtue, beauty, character, exceptional novel, painting, movie, song, poem, etc... Of course, exceptional can go in the negative direction too (the super villain, exceptional cruelty and violence in modern movies, evil corporations, evil politicians, etc). And we have always found culture that doesn't focus on the exceptional to be pedestrian, boring and uninspiring.

Meanwhile, capitalism and corporations exist because they can mass produce exactly what we crave - at low cost and any time we want it.

And there we are. And there's nothing wrong with it. If anyone wants more or something totally different - it's all out there.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Mark_Kouznetsov said:


> seeing the same plot over and over and over



If you subscribe to the idea there are only a handful of plots to begin with, all human story telling is recycling of the same basic plots.

Same with ideas in general. There are no original ideas; everything is recycled.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> started gravitating away from due to it's shallowness and juvenile imagination



Why should that be the norm though? Why does growing older require giving up juvenile imagination?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 15, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> Why should that be the norm though? Why does growing older require giving up juvenile imagination?



As you get older and your brain develops, your imagination and reasoning become more complex and you start to understand deeper connections. Hopefully. Maybe not.

Eventually, maturity starts to develop. With time, perhaps even wisdom. In that context, I meant juwenile as in "childish, immature". Not "childlike". Although I do also think that the whole thing about "childlike imagination" is just being romanticized by people who have no imagination whatsoever as adults. Or simply comes from people that fear responsibility and don't want to grow up.


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2020)

penfever said:


> The entire purpose of culture is to find audiences where they are, intellectually and emotionally, and feed them.



That the "purpose of culture" should be reduced to serving up whatever tripe people want sets the bar ludicrously low. Does that mean gladiatorial fights to the death? Or "Mr. Bean?" or just "SlaughterHeros VIII?"

Giving the people what they want may be the purpose of _commercial entertainment_ but that is not the same as "culture."

*Culture-Schmulture*

Shakespeare is not Shakespeare because of his "story lines," but because of the way he tells them, the matters of character or morals he raises, and his dazzling use of language, both elevated and base. Most people know that the stories he used are in many cases drawn from prior sources.

Cultural works raise serious questions, even if they do so humorously or indirectly. "The Road to Perdition" in my view raises many questions of morality, the human condition, family relationships (mostly father-son), and even the question of what constitutes genuine justice.

I rarely see superhero movies raise any of those sorts of ideas beyond the most fatuous, superficial, bumper-sticker level. And even when such ideas are introduced, half the time they get contradicted seconds later by the behaviour of the character.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I rarely see superhero movies raise any of those sorts of ideas beyond the most fatuous, superficial, bumper-sticker level.



But... so what? What's wrong with something that is just, y'know, fun_._

I'm also sensing some either-or implications being raised here. There is nothing precluding someone from enjoying something that is deeply intellectual or emotional, and also enjoying something lightweight.

(On a side note, I also think this is where people's expectations are actually ruining enjoyment of media, not so much the media itself. If one's expectation is that everything must conform to a particular standard, that's just a recipe for perpetual disappointment and unhappiness.)


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

western society has become increasing Nihilistic. Young people today are left wanting for sense of purpose and meaning to life due to this. Super Heros are make believe gods. So they serve as a way to feed the need to have gods to worship and thereby imagine there might be some sense of purpose to it all. 

I also think Super Hero movies are crap, i can't stand to sit through more than 10 minutes of them anymore, as to whether they are ruining society or not..no I don't think so..they are filling a human need since society is falling apart anyway.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> As you get older and your brain develops, your imagination and reasoning become more complex and you start to understand deeper connections. Hopefully. Maybe not.
> 
> Eventually, maturity starts to develop. With time, perhaps even wisdom. In that context, I meant juwenile as in "childish, immature". Not "childlike". Although I do also think that the whole thing about "childlike imagination" is just being romanticized by people who have no imagination whatsoever as adults. Or simply comes from people that fear responsibility and don't want to grow up.



I don't see it as an either-or thing though. Just because someone matures or develops an interest in deeper/more complex works, doesn't mean that one can't still enjoy things that are inherently childish or immature.

For example, I enjoy art and art history. I've literally spent hours staring at famous classic artworks in major galleries. Yet, I also like watching cartoons. It's not an either-or thing for me.


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## Mornats (Oct 15, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> I don't see it as an either-or thing though. Just because someone matures or develops an interest in deeper/more complex works, doesn't mean that one can't still enjoy things that are inherently childish or immature.
> 
> For example, I enjoy art and art history. I've literally spent hours staring at famous classic artworks in major galleries. Yet, I also like watching cartoons. It's not an either-or thing for me.


My partner and I have spent a week in Florence touring the galleries and loved it. We also loved watching Deadpool. I can enjoy both Michaelangelos.


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## jononotbono (Oct 15, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> Rock 'n' roll _was_ degenerate. Especially in the 80s. Bro, where have you been?



 

Bro, you look so hard in you Jason Bourne trailer. You know when you one punched that terrorist? Was that you or the Braam though?


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> But... so what? What's wrong with something that is just, y'know, fun_._



The "so what" in my case is that I don't find it fun. I find it boring. If there's nothing at stake besides which group of shiny-suited people "win," then that's dull. A series of "look how big this battle is" scenes is tedious / can't wait for it to end.

You can with some minor extra energy add in an actual philosophy or set of governing principles, for both "good" and "bad" sides, so that there is a bit more coherence. I find that helps. Even the Star Wars stories create some kind of opposition between totalitarianism and individualism; between an idea of the interconnectedness of all things and "us _versus _them." Maybe a bit Ron Obvious and maybe not handled with the deftness of Maupassant, but it's something that governs both what the characters do and _won't_ do.

*No Idea*

By contrast, I find that generally the modern flavour of superheroes is:

1. bad guy -- wears black and snarls, expresses hatred for all humanity / sentient beings but self;
2. good guy -- doesn't like / fights bad guy

After a few minutes, the "bad guys" like this wear thin because they only bully and hand out spoils -- they don't even try to persuade. I think we saw in the 20th century that the worst evils were perpetrated not by mindless sociopaths but instead by people whose actions were motivated by detailed philosophies. They were evils that propagated not only by terror but also by convincing others that their ideas were actually correct, inevitable and even desirable.

So I just don't find snarling/wears black bad guys scary or interesting. A bad guy animated by a world view -- that's the scary kind.


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## penfever (Oct 15, 2020)

OK, roll with me for a moment here, if you're willing.

Let's assume that a work of the culture, in this case, film, takes the form, in the minds of its audience, of an argument. Meaning, we examine it, unconsciously, desiring to be changed by it. To be taken by the work to a place, within ourselves, we couldn't access before.

In order for this process to work, it is necessary that we be attentive, and that we suspend disbelief. If we cannot act 'as if' what we are seeing is true, we cannot engage emotionally. If we cannot attend, we cannot engage at all.

If you agree with this, I think it necessarily follows that culture must meet an audience where it is. If I tried to show BREATHLESS to the average Marvel audience, they would get bored. They don't have the necessary grounding to understand what it is a parody of, nor how it is a parody. It would be like dropping an average ten year old in the middle of a Calculus class. How is it the ten year old's fault? It isn't. It can't be. That's blaming the victim.

Most people are eager to learn, if you can meet them where they are. Yes, even the much maligned Marvel audience. If you haven't seen JOKER, it's basically TAXI DRIVER, somewhat less intense and with a few silly costumes thrown in, with Joaquin Phoenix in the De Niro role. For those of you, like me, who have seen TAXI DRIVER, Joker isn't going to be a transformative experience. We have already benefited from the generosity of others, leading the way. But I submit that it is a generous act to meet the Marvel audience where it is, and lead it in the direction of where it could be -- namely, ready to take on more ambitious and adventurous works, perhaps even those outside the genre.

Because ... and this is the key point -- if I had made that same audience sit through TAXI DRIVER, they would NOT have gotten nearly as much from it as they got from JOKER. Just as I didn't get much from JOKER, having seen TAXI DRIVER.

A film that really opened my eyes to this phenomenon is LIFE, ANIMATED. If you haven't seen it, it's an amazing documentary about an autistic boy who teaches himself to speak by watching Disney films because he is too shy to engage with people under normal social conditions. He's ultimately able to live a fairly normal life -- because of a set of movies some call juvenile and trite.

That's why I say, culture must meet us where we are. It's also why I say those of us who consider ourselves cultured should be serving as guides and inspiring the next generation, not insulting others' taste. To do otherwise is to help build the world we claim to hate.


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2020)

penfever said:


> That's why I say, culture must meet us where we are. It's also why I say those of us who consider ourselves cultured should be serving as guides and inspiring the next generation, not insulting others' taste. To do otherwise is to help build the world we claim to hate.



I totally disagree, though I certainly appreciate your taking the time to lay out your argument in a thoughtful way.

I don't agree that culture should "meet us where we are" if it's going to just leave us there. I don't agree that culture should lavish genius effects, music, costumes, visual skills -- all that -- just to excite people at a glandular, reptilian level with flashing lights and in-group / out-group slaughter.

And I never said that I hate people who insult others' taste. I think in fact it's natural for, even incumbent on anyone who takes his craft seriously to have strong, developed preferences and prejudices. 

If we are going to make art or even decent craft we need to have preferences, which is going to mean we disdain some things.

*It's Not All or Nothing*

Looking at the top 50-100 box office -- all time -- there are quite a few spectacle movies. But there are also some whose stories, characters and values are underpinned by coherent ideas and thoughts. These include most Pixar movies, some of which are nearly perfect in marrying fun and thought; movies based on books, including the Harry Potter books which are far better than most of the drivel shoved at kids; and there are others that maybe straddle the line.


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## jononotbono (Oct 15, 2020)

I've actually just thought of a brilliant Super Hero film. It's called Spiderman - Into the Spiderverse.

Not only is it the best Spiderman film ever made. It's completely animated. I put off watching it for quite some time as I certainly did judge it by it's cover. Big mistake. When I finally got around to checking it out, I just couldn't believe it. The art style is unique, the music by Daniel Pemberton is amazing and more importantly the story is brilliant. It's probably being overlooked by many because they probably have the same opinion on it (an option based on having never seen it) as I did and just thought it would be same old same old and "just a kids film". It's brilliant. One of the best in the Super Hero genre for sure!


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## JonS (Oct 15, 2020)

Storytelling has been with mankind from the earliest beginnings. American mythologist Joseph Campbell’s iconic book The Hero with a Thousand Faces discusses the similarities of stories throughout the history of religions and civilizations. I strongly recommend everyone to read it. The basic narrative of almost all stories comes down to one of the 4 conflicts/struggles: 1-man (or woman) vs self, 2-man vs man (or woman), 3-man vs nature (or monster), or 4-man vs system (or machine or society). This basic story of conflict is told and retold and refashioned endlessly. Some of these stories are morality tales reinforcing values and mores, others are not. Comedies and tragedies are delineated by their endings. American cinema tends to have singular definitive endings, while European cinema does not. I believe all stories are man vs self (or the projection of one’s self/dreams/fears). Regardless, we tell stories and yearn for stories, no matter one’s intent or makeup. Each person’s life is bound to their own journey, a story yet known or told.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> So I just don't find snarling/wears black bad guys scary or interesting. A bad guy animated by a world view -- that's the scary kind.



In fairness they did kind of try to do that with Thanos. But I still felt there was too much moral ambiguity. 

the reason the old hero movies were better was because usually the hero had a story to tell that was very compelling in deeper ways. Yea..Joseph Campbell stuff for sure! And in that way they related more to the rest of us. Clark Kent and Superman, for example. I mean the first Superman movie, for example, was a lot more about superman and his personal mental and emotional development then it was about stopping Lex Luthor, who was almost a comical character that happened to have a dastardly greedy plot of his own, ok...but really 99% of the film was about Clark Kent's journey. 

There are a few super hero movies that hit on hero's journey, but sadly most of them today are as thin as rice paper in terms of that kind of stuff.


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> There are a few super hero movies that hit on hero's journey, but sadly most of them today are as thin as rice paper in terms of that kind of stuff.



"Thin as rice paper" -- well put and agree. 

Not sure if it's quite fair to blame anyone in particular, even if you agree that we could use more depth. In the old days, 80% or more of a US film's box office would be North America, now it's the inverse. Consequently, today's world-wide market for filmed entertainment pushes mostly-visual, kinetic action; the simplest way to tell some kind of story to a wide audience, most of whom don't speak English as a first language.

By contrast, tedious character development and subtle philosophising require subtlety of language. Sometimes that translates well, but it can be thwarted by linguistic or cultural differences.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

eh. if that' the reason its even worse, that makes it an artistic sellout, as opposed to simply bad art. I think everyone around the world fell in love with Star Wars because it possessed all the stuff I was just talking about. These concepts are timeless and span all human cultures. Language is a solvable issue.

I think the new movies are thin as rice paper because people seemed to think they had to be different and specifically NOT be like Star Wars..which led to many different kinds of story lines ultimately which are different, some interesting, some stupid...but ultimately I think this art of reaching the soul of the audience is largely lost today in today's writers. Hollywood today is a machine with many people involved, a factory...and its easier to have a factory crank out totally un-original content which happens to have lots of special FX and so forth... otherwise known as the "spectacle" element of the show. Movies today are full of spactular spectacle. PT Barum would be proud. But soulful writing that connects with every human being is lost IMHO until some future generation rediscovers it again perhaps.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> Movies today are full of spactular spectacle. PT Barum would be proud.



What does the former have to do with the latter?



> But soulful writing that connects with every human being is lost IMHO until some future generation rediscovers it again perhaps.



Why do you think such writing is being lost?


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> What does the former have to do with the latter?



He has been labeled the "Greatest Showman" for a reason, he was ALL about the spectacle. He frequently lied beyond belief in his advertisement, exaggerating the hell out of whatever spectacle he was promising ticket buyers to come witness, such as the biggest elephant in the world and other such things.



> Why do you think such writing is being lost?



Because it is. Forgotten. Today's writer's are clueless, sorry. They are too busy trying to be politically correct or change the world in some way. In the case of Super Hero movies, overall, I think they are just not very good, the emphasis is on spectacle, not the soul of the audience.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> He has been labeled the "Greatest Showman" for a reason, he was ALL about the spectacle. He frequently lied beyond belief in his advertisement, exaggerating the hell out of whatever spectacle he was promising ticket buyers to come witness, such as the biggest elephant in the world and other such things.



Is that really the same situation though? If we're talking about modern day blockbusters, they are sold on the prospect of delivering spectacle and for the most part they certainly deliver.



> Because it is. Forgotten. Today's writer's are clueless, sorry. They are too busy trying to be politically correct or change the world in some way.



Is this actually true though? Especially in a day and age where independent creation, self-publishing, etc, are more prevalent than ever.



> In the case of Super Hero movies, overall, I think they are just not very good, the emphasis is on spectacle, not the soul of the audience.



That's generally been the case for blockbuster movies going back decades though. Superhero movies didn't really change anything in that respect.

If I go back and watch movies like Terminator, Die Hard, etc, I'm not interested in a meaningful connection with my soul. I just want to watch things blow up.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

I've already explained my point of view. I can see you don't agree and we don't have to.

but quickly...



shponglefan said:


> Is that really the same situation though? If we're talking about modern day blockbusters, they are sold on the prospect of delivering spectacle and for the most part they certainly deliver.



Yes that's what I just said, we agree. Modern blockbusters, especially super hero movies, are all about the spectacle with very thin character development or real soulful themes.



> Is this actually true though? Especially in a day and age where independent creation, self-publishing, etc, are more prevalent than ever.



independent creation if anything has contributed to medicocrity in media. There is just a lot more of it. quantity over quality.



> That's generally been the case for blockbuster movies going back decades though. Superhero movies didn't really change anything in that respect.



I agree, it has been decades since good writing has really happened, with a few possible rare exceptions. We have been flooded with writing-garbage, IMHO.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> <snip>
> 
> So I just don't find snarling/wears black bad guys scary or interesting. A bad guy animated by a world view -- that's the scary kind.



But if we're decontructing modern super-hero movies, is there really anything *that* different compared to previous decades of film?

I grew up watching action and sci-fi movies in the 80's and 90's, and a lot of what I watched didn't exactly have any deeper philosophical meanings or intellectual abundance.

I just don't see why we're singling out superhero movies in this regard.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

I think the best sci-fi movies of the 80's and perhaps the 90's, did include more depth than today. You mentioned Terminator. It was a smash success because of the philosophical quandaries it posed about AI and trans-humanism...not because of the explosions and laser blaster FX. it also posed the hero journey for Sarah Conner.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2020)

I was on my own in London for business some years ago. I went to see `Man of Steel' at the BFI iMax as it was the only thing on there, and I had never previously been that iMax screen before. I think its supposed to be the biggest in Europe or something like that.

I remember wondering how they managed to make a film so full of action set pieces and VFX to be so completely boring. I remember dozing off even though the audio was set somewhere between 'stun' and 'bleeding from every orifice'. I'd have left before the end if I'd fancied risking the very steep stairs in the dark.

And that's pretty much how I feel about virtually every superhero movie I've come across since then. Someone has discovered the resting place of the Didgeridoo of Horus, which gives the wielder the power to control all the earwax in the universe, so there's a race against time to find the Jewelled Budgerigar of Uranus, which when inserted into..... etc etc..... I really couldn't care less.

I do wish Hollywood stop clogging up the cinemas with this pap.

Oh, and start making Cert 18 films for adults (no - not that kind) again......


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I think the best sci-fi movies of the 80's and perhaps the 90's, did include more depth than today. You mentioned Terminator. It was a smash success because of the philosophical quandaries it posed about AI and trans-humanism...not because of the explosions and laser blaster FX. it also posed the hero journey for Sarah Conner.



That's because VFX were expensive and difficult back then, and ramming the film full of 2000 VFX shots wasn't financially viable. So they wrote good stories with dramatic intelligence and had characters who developed and you cared about.

40 years later, and I'm still a bit in love with Ellen Ripley.....


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

totally. Well VFX gave them a "spectacle crutch" so to speak. I have long had the opinion that the 80's was the pinnacle of Sci fi movie making because basically Spielberg and others were still producing thoughtful, beautiful films and VFX was coming of age. At some point VFX took over and story telling fell by the way side after that.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I think the best sci-fi movies of the 80's and perhaps the 90's, did include more depth than today.



Just for sci-fi, I think there are a lot of modern contenders for sci-fi films with depth. E.g. Interstellar, Another Earth, Arrival, Moon, Looper, Blade Runner 2049...



> You mentioned Terminator. It was a smash success because of the philosophical quandaries it posed about AI and trans-humanism...not because of the explosions and laser blaster FX. it also posed the hero journey for Sarah Conner.



I'd also suggest the breakout roll of Arnold might have had something to do with it too. 

That said, what about movies like Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, Rambo (the sequel, not the original First Blood), Predator, various Seagal/Van Damme/Lundgren movies, etc. There are a lot of mindless action movies from the 80's and 90's that aren't really any different than superhero movies of today.

Bad guy does a bad thing. Good guy stops them. Rince and repeat.


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## NekujaK (Oct 15, 2020)

Movies are simply entertainment. Some films occasionally strive for higher aspirations, but as far as superhero movies are concerned, they are purely entertainment. Nothing more.

I don't find superhero movies entertaining, but who am I to pass judgment and dictate what should or shouldn't be entertaining to others 🤷‍♂️ I'm not particularly fond of watching golf either, but my friend can spend an entire afternoon immersed in a golf tournament. He's none the worse for it, and neither is our society.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Oh, and start making Cert 18 films for adults (no - not that kind) again......



TV is the new adult medium. Kinda weird how everything flipped that way.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> Movies are simply entertainment. Some films occasionally strive for higher aspirations, but as far as superhero movies are concerned, they are purely entertainment. Nothing more.



They don't entertain me.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

Out of curiosity, I decided to look up the top 10 box office from 1989. This is the world-wide box office results for that year:


1_Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_Paramount$474,171,8062_Batman_Warner Bros.$411,348,9243_Back to the Future Part II_Universal$331,950,0024_Look Who's Talking_TriStar$296,999,8135_Dead Poets Society_Disney/Touchstone Pictures$235,860,1166_Lethal Weapon 2_Warner Bros.$227,853,9867_Honey, I Shrunk the Kids_Disney$222,724,1728_Ghostbusters II_Columbia$215,394,7389_The Little Mermaid_Disney$184,155,86310_Born on the Fourth of July_Universal$161,001,698

Oh look, a superhero movie in the top 10. 

This was 30 years ago. It's mostly mindless action/comedy, a kids film, and only a couple films with real depth of emotion.

Has anything really changed?


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## NekujaK (Oct 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> They don't entertain me.


Me neither.


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## JonS (Oct 15, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> Out of curiosity, I decided to look up the top 10 box office from 1989. This is the world-wide box office results for that year:
> 
> 
> 1_Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_Paramount$474,171,8062_Batman_Warner Bros.$411,348,9243_Back to the Future Part II_Universal$331,950,0024_Look Who's Talking_TriStar$296,999,8135_Dead Poets Society_Disney/Touchstone Pictures$235,860,1166_Lethal Weapon 2_Warner Bros.$227,853,9867_Honey, I Shrunk the Kids_Disney$222,724,1728_Ghostbusters II_Columbia$215,394,7389_The Little Mermaid_Disney$184,155,86310_Born on the Fourth of July_Universal$161,001,698
> ...


Indiana is iconic, loved Dead Poets and Born on the Fourth, the rest is junk.


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## C.R. Rivera (Oct 15, 2020)

JonS said:


> Storytelling has been with mankind from the earliest beginnings. American mythologist Joseph Campbell’s iconic book The Hero with a Thousand Faces discusses the similarities of stories throughout the history of religions and civilizations. I strongly recommend everyone to read it. The basic narrative of almost all stories comes down to one of the 4 conflicts/struggles: 1-man (or woman) vs self, 2-man vs man (or woman), 3-man vs nature (or monster), or 4-man vs system (or machine or society). This basic story of conflict is told and retold and refashioned endlessly. Some of these stories are morality tales reinforcing values and mores, others are not. Comedies and tragedies are delineated by their endings. American cinema tends to have singular definitive endings, while European cinema does not. I believe all stories are man vs self (or the projection of one’s self/dreams/fears). Regardless, we tell stories and yearn for stories, no matter one’s intent or makeup. Each person’s life is bound to their own journey, a story yet known or told.


You can recommend it UNTIL he gets "cancelled", the title "burned" and Campbell erased, if the current trend continues and a new species is found on another astronomical body!


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## timbit2006 (Oct 15, 2020)

Superhero movies with very neutral topics and plots are very easily translatable to a global audience and do very well in non-english native speaking countries and are low risk and cost to produce with modern technology so even if they were to start doing poorly in north america there's still a financial reason for them to be pumped out.
I've lived with 10+ different exchange students from various countries as a kid and they all knew about superhero movies and the sharkboy/lavagirl and tron type stuff. The older ones knew Pirates of the Carribean and Star Wars but not other western movies. I can't remember asking all of them why but a few for sure said that it was because they were simple and easy to understand compared to a lot of other movies with psychological plots or comedy so I guess that goes to show it's not just a modern phenomena and has been building for a while.
There was a really well put together video on youtube that explains why superhero movies are so popular and unsurprisingly this was one of their main points so I'll see if I can find that again.

This is also happening in mainstream AAA gaming, MMOs like World of Warcraft and MOBAs like League of Legends are a perfect example of how global markets influence development.
I'm definitely not meaning for any of this to come off as an anti-globalism rant, it's just kinda a bit of a major reason why superhero movies are so popular and it hasn't been brought up in this thread yet. There is also of course the relatability thing and the social interactions that come as a result of them being an obvious reason.
EDIT: 
I forgot one other major thing which this video mentions, companies need to secure their character IPs on a regular basis which also leads to more mediocre movies being put out. Just going to add another edit and say that I hope that with the world slowing down and many respected industry veterans getting fed up with their creativity being limited and speaking out about it we'll have an arts renaissance of some sort


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> Out of curiosity, I decided to look up the top 10 box office from 1989. This is the world-wide box office results for that year:
> 
> 
> 1_Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_Paramount$474,171,8062_Batman_Warner Bros.$411,348,9243_Back to the Future Part II_Universal$331,950,0024_Look Who's Talking_TriStar$296,999,8135_Dead Poets Society_Disney/Touchstone Pictures$235,860,1166_Lethal Weapon 2_Warner Bros.$227,853,9867_Honey, I Shrunk the Kids_Disney$222,724,1728_Ghostbusters II_Columbia$215,394,7389_The Little Mermaid_Disney$184,155,86310_Born on the Fourth of July_Universal$161,001,698
> ...



Yes. There are idiotic movies there but you don't see much like "born on the 4th of July" these days. If ever.


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## mscp (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Yes. There are idiotic movies there but you don't see much like "born on the 4th of July" these days. If ever.



Have you ever watched "Midnight In Paris"? As "cheesy" as one may describe it, there are a lot of subliminal messages about us (middle-aged men) and what we consider as intellectual, idiotic, ...

@shponglefan made a bit of a point there. If you look at that list alone, what do you see? a wealth of intellectual brilliance? Or exactly the same structure we see these days? I call the latter. I have enjoyed *almost* all in that list, but would only watch a few again. I do appreciate the big 4 for coming out with those back then. Especially Batman (super hero movie) and BTTF. Those films are part of the American culture - so in essence, it is culture.

Also, there are a lot of 'intellectual' movies out there that made big in the U.S just last year (e.g: Parasite). If you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it.

What exactly is your point, and would like to see happen?


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 15, 2020)

good video! Thanks for sharing,


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2020)

Phil81 said:


> What exactly is your point, and would like to see happen?



What is _your_ point? I posted the original article and I think it raises a valid question

i do find superhero movies boring and it frustrates me that they are unnecessarily weak.


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## mscp (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> they are unnecessarily weak.



My point: Obvious, gratuitous rant, followed by a subliminal "plug" doesn't validate anything. The only valid thing about the entire article is that he has taken the initiative to work on something, which I'll definitely watch.

Why would you call an entire genre 'weak'? Did you find The Dark Knight weak? How about V for Vendetta? Is it just a generalisation of some sort? I'm honestly curious to read.

Constructive criticism goes a long way (no offense). We already have too much destructive/shallow criticism these days for a variety of reasons. Was your point more of a personal opinion about how you find the genre boring and 'that's it', or is there more to it?


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2020)

Maybe you missed my earlier posts, Phil. I don't think anyone is offering a "gratuitous" rant. I find in general that these movies are far weaker than _necessary_. When I think of all the lavish spending, the costumes, the music, the lighting and effects -- it's all amazing.

To answer your question, no, I don't really like any of the movies except maybe Joker, which I wouldn't put in the same category anyway. Some of the scores are really good, and many aspects of the productions are good. 

However, the lack of philosophical perspective, sense of values, or consistent world view leaves these movies rudderless.

If a roller coaster ride is all you want, they are ace.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> To answer your question, no, I don't really like any of the movies except maybe Joker, which I wouldn't put in the same category anyway.



If you just don't like superhero movies, why even worry about it? We all don't have to like the same things.


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## mscp (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> To answer your question, no, I don't really like any of the movies except maybe Joker, which I wouldn't put in the same category anyway. Some of the scores are really good, and many aspects of the productions are good.
> 
> However, the lack of philosophical perspective, sense of values, or consistent world view leaves these movies rudderless.



There are university classes in which Harvard-graduated humanities professors spend roughly 75+ minutes dismembering/breaking down a lot of these movies philosophically/psychologically. Information that would be quite tedious to type in here, but certainly interesting to read. It's one of those topics I'd love to sit down with someone and chat about it - not type.

Try giving them another chance. Perhaps you simply don't like them out of personal preference (fair enough), but a lot of them are certainly not weak.

Also, bare in mind that these movies are mostly intended for younger audiences. But somehow, with a few messages that only adults are able to perceive. The Joker is an adult feature, not a family one. Also, in a different category as you said.




JohnG said:


> If a roller coaster ride is all you want, they are ace.



Introduction, Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, Denouement - beefed up with CGI and as loud as they can mix...most of the time, which gives you the roller coaster effect I guess.


I'll read your earlier posts.


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## shponglefan (Oct 15, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Yes. There are idiotic movies there but you don't see much like "born on the 4th of July" these days. If ever.



I think you can if you know where to look, especially when it comes to TV/streaming series. For example, have you ever watched Generation Kill? Fantastic series about the War in Iraq and doesn't shy away from the blunt reality of things.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 15, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> This was 30 years ago.



Yeah, western civilization has been on the downward spiral since '45.

It's not that the signs and symptoms weren't there in '89.

It's just worse now, is all.


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## JohnG (Oct 16, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> I think you can if you know where to look, especially when it comes to TV/streaming series. For example, have you ever watched Generation Kill? Fantastic series about the War in Iraq and doesn't shy away from the blunt reality of things.



True. With rare exceptions in the cinema, TV / streaming offers the more thought-provoking fare these days.

I was talking about theatrically-released movies when I wrote my comment.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 16, 2020)

Moved to OT General Musings due to constant reports to moderators.

Oy!


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 16, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Moved to OT General Musings due to constant reports to moderators.


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## NoamL (Oct 16, 2020)

hard agree with @JohnG (as usual, hah)

The new *Star Wars* movies didn't have any people in capes, but they were as stale as a Marvel flick.

So the problem is not that superheroes are boring and bad for storytelling.

IMO the problem is we don't have cinematic sagas anymore.

Like, what is a saga?

a saga is *poetry* because the author's voice is present in the work, and the story is one storyteller's artistic point of view. It's not "The Odyssey," it's "Homer's Odyssey," just like it's Tolkien's Lord Of The Rings, and George Lucas's Star Wars.
a saga is *drama* because it has architecture. What happens in a drama doesn't just make sense within the world of the story, but each scene is necessary to a _storytelling_ structure where themes and ideas play out, and the story is merely a way of embodying them (aka all that hero's journey stuff - speaking of which....)
a saga is *myth* because it deals with larger than life events, not for the spectacle of them but because only a larger than life story can talk about universal and profound things.
The funny thing is if you compare the Star Wars prequels to the sequels, as much as the prequels are terrible movies and the sequels are individually quite well-made movies, the prequels hit these notes and the sequels don't. More broadly, these three factors are what's missing when Hollywood makes "epic" movies today.

Movies aren't allowed to contain an author's voice anymore. Disney not only hired three sets of writers for the Star Wars trilogy, but they let each new writer completely derail the story that came before. Writers and directors are only granted "tenures" at franchises - a model borrowed directly from comic books - with limited creative control.
Blockbuster movies are no longer dramas because they have no beginning, middle or end. They are ANTI dramas. What stories can you tell about Spider-Man when it is_ a commercial certainty_ that there will be another Spider-Man movie every 4 years until we're all dead? Where can the MCU go when "Endgame" isn't the end?
The last problem with these movies is they're not mythic. I dunno, this is more personal opinion, but it feels like "human nature" is no longer the _point_ of "larger than life stuff happening on screen." Star Wars without Luke Skywalker would be a pretty awful film.


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## NoamL (Oct 16, 2020)

Also, about *The Boys *- I dig it, but when people think it's subversive, that just blows my mind. It kind of shows that we are in a cultural time warp, eh?

Because at this point the list of "dark, gory superhero movies that subversively depict what superheroes would be like in real life" includes... _*The Boys*_, _*Watchmen*, *Super*_ (the 2010 movie), _*Kick Ass*_,* Brightburn*_, *Chronicle*, _*Unbreakable*, *Split, *_*Glass, *_and that's not the complete list I'm sure... the idea of an anti-superhero superhero movie is itself a dead cliche now. And maybe you could argue that the gritty R rating of these superhero products is just a way for adults to convince themselves that they're watching adult entertainment... it's the Game Of Thrones factor, dragons aren't dorky if there's also sex!


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## mscp (Oct 16, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Blockbuster movies are no longer dramas because they have no beginning, middle or end. They are ANTI dramas. What stories can you tell about Spider-Man when it is_ a commercial certainty_ that there will be another Spider-Man movie every 4 years until we're all dead? Where can the MCU go when "Endgame" isn't the end?



The 5 stages of drama are present in each movie. Must every 'Spiderman' movie be stitched together to create a sense of coherence and excitement? 

In my opinion, the issue is the overwhelmingly high turnover, and the human condition of being suffocated by something.


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## Greg (Oct 16, 2020)

Even The Joker was just a rehash of Taxi Driver. Without the clever ties to the comics, that film is laughably generic. Everyone knows The Joker's story. There is zero ambiguity there as soon as you read the title. 

This is why Taxi Driver echoes through film makers and audiences as a masterpiece decades later. Because it's real art written from real experience. Something comic book movies can't seem to capture because the genesis of those characters was to transcend the human experience, not remind you of it.

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/taxi-driver-martin-scorsese-screenwriter-paul-schrader/


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## JonS (Oct 16, 2020)

Greg said:


> Even The Joker was just a rehash of Taxi Driver. Without the clever ties to the comics, that film is laughably generic. Everyone knows The Joker's story. There is zero ambiguity there as soon as you read the title.
> 
> This is why Taxi Driver echoes through film makers and audiences as a masterpiece decades later. Because it's real art written from real experience. Something comic book movies can't seem to capture because the genesis of those characters was to transcend the human experience, not remind you of it.
> 
> https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/taxi-driver-martin-scorsese-screenwriter-paul-schrader/


And don't forget it's satirical black comedy offshoot The King of Comedy.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 16, 2020)

All the best stories you ever watched or read are about people, not events. What makes the greatest stories the greatest is how they get into the psychology and I would argue that simple themes about people and the journey through life that we are all dealing with is what makes them the most interesting. George Lucas has said that Star Wars had always been in his mind, a teenage soap opera set in space. It is not about Jedi vs the empire. It is about Luke sky walker and his broken relationship with his missing father. And his hero’s journey, mostly to discover the Jedi within himself. To slay the proverbial dragon. 

All the sci fi and action and good vs bad just adds excitement and scenarios, structures from which to develop that meme. There are oodles of sci fi movies now trying to imitate Star Wars with all the action even better then before, all the good vs evil, all the mysterious stuff about voodoo magic like the force, etc.... yet they don’t reach into out soul like the Star Wars trilogy did. 

the sequels got even worse as they completely abandoned the true father son story in Star Wars and tried to use all manner of cliche while breaking everything sacred about the original, it is quite literally an abomination. No wonder Lucas wants a redo.

anyway there was nothing complicated really about the central theme of Star Wars. But it connected with inner psychological truths that are sooooo strong within us that it became like gospel to many. Simple truths. Not that deep, not that complicated. Not politically correct. Timeless though and unequivocally true. After that the rest of the plot development is just by the book and rather formulaic. Nothing magic about it at all.

movies today can go by the book or try to be rebellious against the book, but if they lack these inner deep seated unequivocal truths, they will just bounce off us like the nonsense they are.


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## jbuhler (Oct 16, 2020)

What a weird thread. I find these films generally fun to watch. I like be immersed in the visual and aural spectacle. Bonuses if it has a story that is worth thinking about (or doesn’t have plot holes you could drive a starship through). But really all that is secondary to the cinekinetic experiences these films deliver, and these films pay for the cinematic infrastructure we enjoy for other things. So we can bemoan the way they push out other kinds of films all we want (and they do do this), but we wouldn’t have anything like the current infrastructure without these films. (Of course who knows if the infrastructure will survive the pandemic so all of this could very well be moot.)

The blockbuster system is now organized in a way that franchises resemble television series with indefinite runs. It’s perfectly possible to make mythic television. So the indefinite series, its lack of a defined end point, is not the crux of the issue. (I also don’t think the judgment about franchises lacking myth is correct.)

Television has the figure of show runner who is not the director. Franchises have similar figures. I don’t think the issue is really a lack of voice and/or vision. I suspect it’s the presence of a voice and/or vision you dislike. I think the Marvel films have a surprising consistency of voice and vision they appear despite the difference of directors, composers and other creative personnel. The consistency remains even in the face of quite uneven quality on whatever scale you want to adjudicate that. It’s the “genius of the system” reappearing in the 21st century.


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## shponglefan (Oct 16, 2020)

NoamL said:


> What stories can you tell about Spider-Man when it is_ a commercial certainty_ that there will be another Spider-Man movie every 4 years until we're all dead? Where can the MCU go when "Endgame" isn't the end?



That's arguably a problem with the source material more than anything. Comic books are notorious for storytelling devoid of lasting consequences.


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## mscp (Oct 16, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Bonuses if it has a story that is worth thinking about (or doesn’t have plot holes you could drive a starship through).



You've already said what I wanted to say here (below). 



jbuhler said:


> The blockbuster system is now organized in a way that franchises resemble television series with indefinite runs. It’s perfectly possible to make mythic television. So the indefinite series, its lack of a defined end point, is not the crux of the issue. (I also don’t think the judgment about franchises lacking myth is correct.)



Yup!



jbuhler said:


> Television has the figure of show runner who is not the director. Franchises have similar figures. I don’t think the issue is really a lack of voice and/or vision. I suspect it’s the presence of a voice and/or vision you dislike. I think the Marvel films have a surprising consistency of voice and vision they appear despite the difference of directors, composers and other creative personnel. The consistency remains even in the face of quite uneven quality on whatever scale you want to adjudicate that. It’s the “genius of the system” reappearing in the 21st century.



Very well put.


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## Andrew Aversa (Oct 17, 2020)

A movie is more than its screenplay, or its story. The fact that we know a character will be alive at the end of a story doesn't inherently make the movie worse. Why should it? 

There are countless biographical movies (dramatizations and otherwise) where we know exactly what happens throughout the subject's life. That doesn't mean the movie is without value, predictable, etc. Take the widely-praised _The Theory of Everything_ film from 2014. We all know who Stephen Hawking was. You could understand the entire arc of his life by reading his Wikipedia page.

Given that subject matter, the filmmakers could have made something dull and dry, or something emotional and captivating. They made the latter.

How about other genres? Take the movie _Alien_, also widely-revered as a classic, landmark film in the sci-fi and horror genres. It is, in a nutshell, a monster/slasher movie. A scary thing goes around killing people. Yawn. Except it's made with incredible artistry. The story may be basic and predictable, but the *way it's told *is fantastic. 

In _It's a Wonderful Life_ there is no doubt that there will be some kind of happy ending. Even if you've never seen the film, you know that things are going to work out OK. Once the 'alternate world' is shown we know that George is not going to go through with his plan. So it's trite and predictable... or, again, does it come down to _how the story is told - _the acting, writing, music, lighting, cinematography, etc?

This is all to say that there is nothing fundamental to a superhero or comic-based story that is necessarily bad or uninteresting by default, any more than other genres. It all comes down to execution. I don't think it's reasonable or fair to judge all of them in one broad stroke. e.g. Lumping _The Amazing Spider-Man 2_, _Daredevil_, or _Green Lantern_ in with _The Dark Knight_, _Black Panther_, or _Thor: Ragnarok_ is doing a real disservice to the latter.


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## bill5 (Oct 20, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> That's arguably a problem with the source material more than anything. Comic books are notorious for storytelling devoid of lasting consequences.


I don't see why the movies don't just follow suit. And as I've said before, I really hate it when they aren't faithful to the source material, though it varies with specifics.





zircon_st said:


> This is all to say that there is nothing fundamental to a superhero or comic-based story that is necessarily bad or uninteresting by default, any more than other genres. It all comes down to execution. I don't think it's reasonable or fair to judge all of them in one broad stroke. e.g. Lumping _The Amazing Spider-Man 2_, _Daredevil_, or _Green Lantern_ in with _The Dark Knight_, _Black Panther_, or _Thor: Ragnarok_ is doing a real disservice to the latter.


Great post, until you implied the last movie didn't suck.


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## Andrew Aversa (Oct 20, 2020)

It's not high art, but does every movie have to be? Or can it simply excel at what it sets out to do? _Airplane! _is not high art, yet it's hilarious and widely considered a classic. _Terminator _is, at its heart, another slasher/monster movie, but it has also been universally praised, preserved in the Library of Congress, lauded by the AFI, and has established a wide list of tropes on its own. Etc.

As for Ragnarok, it's superbly witty, entertaining, has great acting & directing, excellent visuals and music... critics & fans were also quite fond of it. And in any case, it's substantially better than stuff like _Green Lantern _or any _Fantastic Four_ movie, which was more my point. Even if you consider it a 6/10 movie, the others I mentioned would be perhaps 2/10.


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## JohnG (Oct 20, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Great post, until you implied the last movie didn't suck.



Agreed. I was assured that "Thor Ragnarok" would change my opinion forever about this genre; wish I could get those hours back...


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## JonS (Oct 20, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> It's not high art, but does every movie have to be? Or can it simply excel at what it sets out to do? _Airplane! _is not high art, yet it's hilarious and widely considered a classic. _Terminator _is, at its heart, another slasher/monster movie, but it has also been universally praised, preserved in the Library of Congress, lauded by the AFI, and has established a wide list of tropes on its own. Etc.
> 
> As for Ragnarok, it's superbly witty, entertaining, has great acting & directing, excellent visuals and music... critics & fans were also quite fond of it. And in any case, it's substantially better than stuff like _Green Lantern _or any _Fantastic Four_ movie, which was more my point. Even if you consider it a 6/10 movie, the others I mentioned would be perhaps 2/10.


Terminator is man (woman) vs machine (system)


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## MartinH. (Oct 20, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> As for Ragnarok, it's superbly witty, entertaining, has great acting & directing, excellent visuals and music... critics & fans were also quite fond of it. And in any case, it's substantially better than stuff like _Green Lantern _or any _Fantastic Four_ movie, which was more my point. Even if you consider it a 6/10 movie, the others I mentioned would be perhaps 2/10.



I think Ragnarok was the first Marvel movie that I switched off in the first half hour because I couldn't stand the mix of boredom and cringe. I found it much more offensive than a 6/10 movie. At least what I saw of it, I had no desire to see if the rest of the film would change my mind.


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## Uiroo (Oct 20, 2020)

I love Superhero Movies!


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## bill5 (Oct 20, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> It's not high art, but does every movie have to be? Or can it simply excel at what it sets out to do? _Airplane! _is not high art, yet it's hilarious and widely considered a classic. _Terminator _is, at its heart, another slasher/monster movie, but it has also been universally praised, preserved in the Library of Congress, lauded by the AFI, and has established a wide list of tropes on its own. Etc.
> 
> As for Ragnarok, it's superbly witty, entertaining, has great acting & directing, excellent visuals and music... critics & fans were also quite fond of it. And in any case, it's substantially better than stuff like _Green Lantern _or any _Fantastic Four_ movie, which was more my point. Even if you consider it a 6/10 movie, the others I mentioned would be perhaps 2/10.


We'll agree to disagree on the Thor drek, but again your overall points are more important and stand. No, a movie doesn't have to be high art, and I think comic book movies are rarely if ever intended to be...they're simply intended to be entertaining. Which is probably the case with most movies really. Sadly, some are not entertaining (without mentioning names  ), but that can be said of any type of movie.


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## ptram (Oct 20, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Even the Star Wars stories create some kind of opposition between totalitarianism and individualism



Speaking about Star Wars - an implementation of narratology theories based on the folk tales derived from the ancient myths - : anti-political heroes fighting to preserve an oligarchic government, helped by a superstitious clerical class, ruling on a messy galaxy plagued by inequality and extreme poverty. One could easily be tempted by the dark side!

Paolo


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## ptram (Oct 21, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> Take the movie _Alien_, also widely-revered as a classic, landmark film in the sci-fi and horror genres. It is, in a nutshell, a monster/slasher movie. A scary thing goes around killing people.



It's a bit more than that. It's the monster _inside_ us, hiding in the labyrinth of the home we are forced in. And escaping from this craze would kill us (in the cold outer space).

Alien is a psychic drama. With a lot of social implications and a reasoning on the power structure.

Paolo


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## X - V I S I O N (Oct 25, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> The Boys TV show is hands down the best super hero thing to have ever happened. There’s nothing like it. And it’s definitely not for anyone sensitive.



I watch The Boys instead of News.

Way more entertaining...


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## mscp (Oct 25, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> It's not high art, but does every movie have to be? Or can it simply excel at what it sets out to do? _Airplane! _is not high art, yet it's hilarious and widely considered a classic. _Terminator _is, at its heart, another slasher/monster movie, but it has also been universally praised, preserved in the Library of Congress, lauded by the AFI, and has established a wide list of tropes on its own. Etc.
> 
> As for Ragnarok, it's superbly witty, entertaining, has great acting & directing, excellent visuals and music... critics & fans were also quite fond of it. And in any case, it's substantially better than stuff like _Green Lantern _or any _Fantastic Four_ movie, which was more my point. Even if you consider it a 6/10 movie, the others I mentioned would be perhaps 2/10.



yes, yes, yes, and another yesss!

The original article posted is just a bunch of political yatta yattas. Kind of like those adverts on American tv that, in order to make a sale, they feel the need to trash the competition or ridicule something of the past.


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## Andrew Aversa (Oct 25, 2020)

Also, we've been through this with other film trends. Westerns, musicals, big-budget comedies, adventure movies (the traditional "summer blockbuster"), slashers... for example, for every classic musical like _The Sound of Music_ or _Singin' in the Rain_, there are 10 failures that nobody remembers or talks about now.

20 years from now, we will probably look back and skim over most modern superhero films, but some will stand out and be remembered as classics.


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## mscp (Oct 25, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> Also, we've been through this with other film trends. Westerns, musicals, big-budget comedies, adventure movies (the traditional "summer blockbuster"), slashers... for example, for every classic musical like _The Sound of Music_ or _Singin' in the Rain_, there are 10 failures that nobody remembers or talks about now.
> 
> 20 years from now, we will probably look back and skim over most modern superhero films, but some will stand out and be remembered as classics.



This thread is also a reminder to me of a question I have not been able to answer yet. Why do some have the habit of often focusing on the negative in order to speak highly of the other? If you read the article, you’ll provably know what I’m on about.


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## bill5 (Oct 25, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> 20 years from now, we will probably look back and skim over most modern superhero films, but some will stand out and be remembered as classics.


I doubt it. Some have been good and colorful fun, but classic? Nah. And as stated that's OK, they don't have to be.


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