# The sound of LASS 2



## kgdrum (Jan 9, 2012)

I hope this question is not inappropriate.
Question: I have been on the fence regarding the purchase of LASS for over a year now.
I always hear users talk about the ease of use as well as playability/control etc...... Always rated amazing!
But if there is 1 knock I keep hearing after people have used it for a while is the actual SOUND, many users state repeatedly that LASS is the most playable String VI but the sound is not quite there as w/ some other libraries.
With that being said,has anyone who has both LASS and LASS 2 noticed any significant improvement of the actual sound of LASS 2 over the previous version?
I'm not actually stating this as a flaw w/ LASS or LASS 2 but this is 1 subjective critique I keep hearing repeatedly w/ user reviews of LASS, as highly regarded as it is.
Thanks,
KG


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 9, 2012)

I did an exercise to start to answer this, go to this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0


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## kgdrum (Jan 9, 2012)

I missed that,great thread.
Thanks
KG
o-[][]-o


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## quantum7 (Jan 9, 2012)

kgdrum @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> many users state repeatedly that LASS is the most playable String VI but the sound is not quite there as w/ some other libraries.
> 
> KG



Hmmm.....I find that the opposite is true- that most string libraries sound are not quite up to the quality of LASS.


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## muziksculp (Jan 9, 2012)

Why aren't there any LASS2 audio demos at the Audiobro website ?

Hopefully some audio demos will surface on their website.


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2012)

quantum7 @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> kgdrum @ Mon Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > many users state repeatedly that LASS is the most playable String VI but the sound is not quite there as w/ some other libraries.
> ...



Where are all the people saying that? I have never seen anyone say that. I like LASS, I think it seems extremely useful for a great number of things and does loads of things well. It has really pushed the sampling of strings forward, but the "sound" of it is not the reason it is great and not what people say they like about it when I see people talking about it.


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## muziksculp (Jan 9, 2012)

Ed @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> It has really pushed the sampling of strings forward, but the "sound" of it is not the reason it is great and not what people say they like about it when I see people talking about it.



Can you elaborate about this ? How can the 'sound' of it not be the most critical factor in evaluating it ? I'm totally lost >8o


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## david robinson (Jan 9, 2012)

it's the feel of it.

i've written 4 strings at lot and recorded/conducted the same.
LASS is the closest to the real deal, atm.
at least andrew and team are trying to raise the bar of what ppl expect from a library.
nothing's perfect, including real sections.
but, then again, i like imperfections.
human.
j.


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2012)

muziksculp @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Ed @ Mon Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > It has really pushed the sampling of strings forward, but the "sound" of it is not the reason it is great and not what people say they like about it when I see people talking about it.
> ...



The sound quality or sound engineering, whatever you want to call it, is just one component of what makes up a "sample" and only one aspect of what you must consider when reviewing one. A sample is at its heart merely a sound recording, thousands and thousands of tiny sound recordings all stitched together by a complicated computer program to, hopefully, end up mimicing as close as we can a performance of the real instrument or instruments when played on a keyboard or other kind of controller. So if you want to ask this question we must first look at a normal recording of an instrument.

When you listen to a recording of an orchestra, band or solo instrument, vocalist - whatever it may be there are various aspects to judge how good the recording is. We may ask questions such as, how good is the player? How good is the instrument? How good is the room? How good do the microphones seem? How good is the reverb? etc. You record a virtuoso with a beautiful instrument in a bathroom and its going to sound like a great player that has not been recorded in a very pleasant environment. However it is may also be more desirable to have such a recording than a terrible player in a nice hall. 

The point is, the "sound" of a sample is necessarily the most critical aspect of it, there's a lot more to consider. A great sample is a combination of various factors that all have to come together. VSL have long been criticised for the sound quality, for example. Why? Because people believe the sound of the room they record it to not produce a pleasant sound appropriate for the instrument or for what many people want out of it. Brass can't bloom correctly in such an environment, hence why VSL's dimension brass has been a flop compared with CineBrass and Hollywood Brass. So why do people still like it? Why do I still think I may have to buy some VSL solo woodwind downloads in the near future? Because even though there are other choices out there that may have better sound quality, or if you prefer recordings that are nicer, they are not better sampled reproductions of the instruments or they are not sampled anywhere near as deeply. VSL has a MASSIVE selection of articulations, Dimension Brass DOES do things other libraries cannot do and therefore it makes it desirable to people who want that detail, who find THAT aspect more important to them that simply the recording quality. 

There are old libraries that are lovely, I have some Roland samples that have lovelly string sustains. I have a Prosonus Orchestra librray which has some really great string Staccs samples. Great sound, but it is better than LASS? Even if I think the recording is nicer? No, because what makes a good sample is far more than just recording quality. Its far more than a good instrument. Its far more even than a good player, its also how deeply its articulations are sampled, its how much care is taken to keep it as musical as possible when its being stitched back together. We have come a long way since the days of Roland and Prosonus, it took VSL to think outside the box and believe that interval legato could be done. When they released their first demos many people didnt even believe it. Impossible they said, how could it work? But their approach isnt the end, people have improved on it, people like Andrew at LASS. Troels and Colin are pushing things further, trying to do things differently. We know Troels and Colin have come up with a great sound with Adagio, as we wait for more demos and videos we wait to see just how great it works as *samples*.

*EDIT:*

In other words.... Someone could technically make the most realistic sample library ever made, of a broken violin, being played by someone who can't play violin, recorded in a bathroom, and it would sound exactly like that... but it would still be the most realistic sample, see? This is just the most extreme example, but I think makes the point... On the other side, just because someone may be a great sound engineer doesnt mean they can produce good sample libraries. A great sound is just the start.


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## muziksculp (Jan 9, 2012)

david robinson @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> it's the feel of it.
> 
> i've written 4 strings at lot and recorded/conducted the same.
> LASS is the closest to the real deal, atm.
> ...




Feel of It ? OK, I understand. 


But, what about The *SOUND* of it ? 

I feel both (Feel and Sound) are very important/critical factors, you can't have just one, and not the other to make a well written string line sing.


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## Arbee (Jan 9, 2012)

Interesting topic - the sound of LASS is the _only_ reason I don't already have it. Everthing else about the concept, the legato, the divisi etc etc seems absolutely brilliant. I couldn't describe the sound as bad at all, it's hard to put into words, but there is just a certain characteristic of the sound that really bothers my ears. I can pick the sound of LASS in a track immediately, not so much other libraries.

I'm really wanting someone to blow my socks off with a LASS 2.0 demo, perhaps the "Colour" aspect might just do it!


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## muziksculp (Jan 9, 2012)

Arbee @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Interesting topic - the sound of LASS is the _only_ reason I don't already have it. Everthing else about the concept, the legato, the divisi etc etc seems absolutely brilliant. I couldn't describe the sound as bad at all, it's hard to put into words, but there is just a certain characteristic of the sound that really bothers my ears. I can pick the sound of LASS in a track immediately, not so much other libraries.
> 
> I'm really wanting someone to blow my socks off with a LASS 2.0 demo, perhaps the "Colour" aspect might just do it!



You spoke my mind about LASS. I totally agree with you, and Yes, Some LASS 2 audio demos that would make me change my overall impression of how LASS sounds, would be the only way to convince me that LASS-2 sounds great . 

Hearing is believing. Yup... It's that simple.


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## dedersen (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm sure both user and official demos of LASS 2 and the stage and color feature will emerge in time. For now, I think people are too busy trying to get to grips with ALL the new stuff that is in the update. It really is one of the most significant updates I have ever seen, and there's just a lot to wrap your head around. Andrew and Sebastian are pretty busy dealing with a zillion daily posts on the audiobro forum. 

That said, I have only really had time to play around with the stage and color feature for a bit, but I am really impressed with some of the presets. They definitely manage to "tame" LASS quite a bit.


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## midphase (Jan 10, 2012)

I find that many who have opinions about the 'sound' of a string library have had little to no actual exposure to listening to a live string section within a decent hall and with decent players.

For many who evaluate sample libraries, their only benchmark for what strings sound like is the (typically) over processed sound of movie soundtracks, particularly the ones from the mid-90's on.


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## muziksculp (Jan 10, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I find that many who have opinions about the 'sound' of a string library have had little to no actual exposure to listening to a live string section within a decent hall and with decent players.
> 
> For many who evaluate sample libraries, their only benchmark for what strings sound like is the (typically) over processed sound of movie soundtracks, particularly the ones from the mid-90's on.



I wasn't aware that LASS's sound is the new benchmark ! I will have to re-program my brain to appreciate the new benchmark (LASS) that is.


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## Arbee (Jan 10, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I find that many who have opinions about the 'sound' of a string library have had little to no actual exposure to listening to a live string section within a decent hall and with decent players.
> 
> For many who evaluate sample libraries, their only benchmark for what strings sound like is the (typically) over processed sound of movie soundtracks, particularly the ones from the mid-90's on.



Thankfully I'm not not one of those "many"..... :wink:


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## david robinson (Jan 10, 2012)

muziksculp @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> david robinson @ Mon Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > it's the feel of it.
> ...



i suppose you work with real players, do you?
if u do, you'll know that's a double-edged sword.
sample libs are a compromise, at least now.
they will never be everything to everyone.
j.


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## jamwerks (Jan 10, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> VSL have long been criticised for the sound quality, for example. Why? Because people believe the sound of the room they record it to not produce a pleasant sound appropriate for the instrument or for what many people want out of it. Brass can't bloom correctly in such an environment, hence why VSL's dimension brass has been a flop compared with CineBrass and Hollywood Brass. So why do people still like it? Why do I still think I may have to buy some VSL solo woodwind downloads in the near future? Because even though there are other choices out there that may have better sound quality, or if you prefer recordings that are nicer, they are not better sampled reproductions of the instruments or they are not sampled anywhere near as deeply. VSL has a MASSIVE selection of articulations, Dimension Brass DOES do things other libraries cannot do and therefore it makes it desirable to people who want that detail, who find THAT aspect more important to them that simply the recording quality.



Agree 100%


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## stevenson-again (Jan 10, 2012)

If I could pitch on this:

When people talk about 'sound' of LASS, they are referring to the raw unprocessed samples. For whatever reason, they were recorded overly lively or 'harsh', it may have been the players, the room, the mic - whatever. Straight out of the box LASS does not have that amazing sound you can get in a really great hall with really great players. But that does not mean you cannot achieve it or something very very close to it - so close as to be a subjective difference.

And this is where people have had problems. Play the strings from Spitfire's Albion and boom - you have the sound right there. LASS you are going to have to work for it first.

But as Ed tried to point out - there is much more to an expressive library than merely the sound. It has to be useable, consistent, well conceived, and deeply sampled. LASS is simply the best, most flexible, most natural and useable 'real' sounding library bar none - strings, percussion, brass - whatever IMO. It's not without it's flaws, but it's the nearest thing to a real band I have heard or used, and I work with live players quite a lot.

So what grabs LASS enthusiasts is the expressivity and ease of use. Once you have massaged the sound you want out of the library you can so easily write extremely expressively, and with lots of colour and character. Now with LASS 2, the tricky bit of defining 'the sound' is made a lot easier because they have sat down and taken the concept to a new level by thinking about staging and eq-ing together. God just listen to Andrew's demos for LASS! They sound pretty terrific to me. Then on top of that you are going to get all that flexibility and expressivity.

It bears repeating: having a great sound alone is not sufficient for you to be able to write great music. It must be able to bend to your intentions.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

The thread on my LASS 2 Shawshank piece has had a lot of interesting feedback, but the big question I think still hasn't been answered is precisely the one that several in this thread have expressed. How does it sound to someone who doesn't like the basic LASS sound? So I'm really curious to hear from those folks in particular (focusing on tone and not the merits or otherwise of the mockup) - does it sound pleasing to you in a way that regular LASS doesn't? http://www.box.com/s/v1ytmvchfphgc0fqepeh . I am biased - I like the sound of LASS, I like its quite brittle tone in some contexts too - I too like that woody, bowing sound it does. But of course I too want a warm but airy tone as well, and that's what this first effort represents.

Of course my demo doesn't represent "the sound of LASS 2", but it does represent A sound which was entirely within LASS 2 and no external processing - took about 10 minutes to set up, then that's the preset you can use. Like Dedersen says I guess the reason we don't have more demos yet is cos LASS 2 is a huge beast and people are still getting to grips with it. That's why I wanted to use a piece I'd already worked on first - I knew the tone would be the most important thing for people, and I was keen to focus on that initially, then get lost in setting up templates with the ARC second.


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## Arbee (Jan 10, 2012)

I can answer that to some extent - I believe I can hear the hint of what I'm looking for in the "Airy" example and it's a real tease. As such, I'm reluctant to get my hands on LASS until I'm comfortable with the sound of it. Why? Because I can already see what a great product it is to work with and I don't want that to color my views on the actual sound. I would also like to hear how the smaller sections and FC respond in this new environment. 

Just to clarify, I'm not looking for a great sound "out of the box", in my view we already have a number of libraries on the market where the room sounds better than the samples. In addition, my life experience includes the technical and commercial aspects of software development and I have absolute admiration and respect for what Andrew and his team have done here. Just make me love the sound of it - please!!!


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## david robinson (Jan 10, 2012)

stevenson-again @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> If I could pitch on this:
> 
> When people talk about 'sound' of LASS, they are referring to the raw unprocessed samples. For whatever reason, they were recorded overly lively or 'harsh', it may have been the players, the room, the mic - whatever. Straight out of the box LASS does not have that amazing sound you can get in a really great hall with really great players. But that does not mean you cannot achieve it or something very very close to it - so close as to be a subjective difference.
> 
> ...



hi rohan.
couldn't agree more.
got Spitfire solo strings only, atm, and, as you said, they "sound great" - as recordings..........
BUT, and my butt's really big, i'm finding it hard to find a use for them.
i DO have LASS full, and it gets used in everything, from pop to classical.
all the time.
micro tuning helps heaps.
i hardly even apply any plugin eq.
and yes. like you, i have a lot of experience abusing real players.
guys, you ever heard a violin close up?(Rohan has)
given the player, it doesn't sound like anything i've heard on a finished production.
(trying to be kind here)
also, if you use bookshelf two-ways for monitors, you will definitely be missing a huge chunk of warmth that IS actually present. (talking LASS here.)
with bigger speakers, the low end kills.
a lot of other libs are hyped to sound great in your average project studio - LASS does not have this failing.
Rohan, Mabel says hello.
j.


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## zvenx (Jan 10, 2012)

I guess I really am not the only one enamored with the sound of LASS. I am waiting to hear more LASS2 Stage and Color sounds, but sadly from what I have heard so far....I don't' think I will be going to full LASS or even using LASS Lite anytime soon... I guess I have to think of it as a $399 lesson.
rsp


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## PasiP (Jan 10, 2012)

To me the sound of the normal LASS is great. It reminds me of the dry string sound that Danny Elfman and Michael Giacchino use in some of their scores.


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## khollister (Jan 10, 2012)

I went through a lot of analysis between LASS, Cinematic Strings & HS before purchasing LASS earlier this year. To me there are two aspects to the "sound" of LASS. The first is the timbre of the instruments along with whatever venue acoustics are baked into the samples. If you are looking for instant gratification on sounding like a John Williams soundtrack, LASS probably isn't your solution. Both HS and CS have an intially more gratifying sound (as well as Albion and to some degree Symphobia), but also more limiting since they are crafted to sound "Hollywood".

However, the other aspect of the "sound" is the realism of a composition played with the samples. In particular, the clarity of the inner voices and does the passage actually sound like strings rather than someone grabbing a handful of chord on a good string synthesizer. It is this that I feel LASS excels at. When I listen to the HS demos (the downloaded ones, not the crappy MP3's), none of them have the clarity, transparency and openness that LASS (and real string sections) display. CS & HS can sound somewhat thick and closed in. 

The timbral differences I can deal with through the processing I have available (the UAD Studer tape simulator and Manley Massive Passive EQ are particularly useful here). I can't "open up" HS to sound like LASS, though.

Personal opinion is that there is not a single HS demo track on their site that gives me goosebumps from a realism standpoint like some of the LASS demos do. It just sounds so real, regardless of the particular timbre or acoustic perspective.

That said, if I play a passage with LASS 2 using the Barb's Adagio S&C preset with CC1 set to about 50%, I get a very airy, smooth sound with realistic texture that doesn't sound like most of the examples I listened to in the other thread here.

Make no mistake - LASS is not instant gratification in this regard. But the bit of work you have to put in to get the acoustic signature you want is more than made up for in the performance workflow ease. Nothing's perfect (yet).


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## zvenx (Jan 10, 2012)

how did you get to hear LASS, Cinematic Strings and HS before purchasing? was it just downloads of songs? That to me is where the weakness of the online purchasing is if there is no demo, and that it is rare for a music store to have it installed on their system..

rsp


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## Resoded (Jan 10, 2012)

I made a lot of research before I chose LASS, rather than HS or VSL. If you ask me, all three libraries have their own characteristic tone. Honestly I think it's more a matter of taste than quality. HS and LASS are so similar in quality that it's left to characteristics to decide which you prefer. VSL sounds great aswell with some tweaking, even though I personally prefer LASS and HS.

When listening to all big competitors, the only demos that really blew me away was with LASS.

In my opinion LASS does not sound good straight out of the box though. It needs both EQ and reverb in my ears. Thankfully the guys at audiobro realized this and gave us presets that they worked hard on, which outmatches my own attempts at creating airy halls.

Oh, and one thing that I think all string libraries have in common is that they sound great in the hands of good producers but they are not all the way there yet. There seem to be some work to do before they sound like real strings, if they ever will.


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## zvenx (Jan 10, 2012)

"Honestly I think it's more a matter of taste than quality" 
with you 100% on that one..... I am not questioning the quality of LASS it is just not my taste of sound.
rsp


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## jamwerks (Jan 10, 2012)

khollister @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> The timbral differences I can deal with through the processing I have available (the UAD Studer tape simulator and Manley Massive Passive EQ are particularly useful here).



I'd love to hear what the Studer plug does to strings (and orchestra in general) !


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## Daryl (Jan 10, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I find that many who have opinions about the 'sound' of a string library have had little to no actual exposure to listening to a live string section within a decent hall and with decent players.
> 
> For many who evaluate sample libraries, their only benchmark for what strings sound like is the (typically) over processed sound of movie soundtracks, particularly the ones from the mid-90's on.


Agreed. I don't think that there is a problem with the sound of any of the major libraries, TBH. I just think that the some of them are more suited to particular purposes than others. The only problems I hear are intonation, anemic sounding legato patches (which is the playing, not the recording or the venue) and sloppy programing.

As an aside, to my ears, the VSL Silent Stage is neither good nor bad sounding. It is neutral. However, if a library was to be recorded in Abbey Road Studio 2 (a similar size to the Silent Stage) it would sound good, but not neutral. If this is what someone wants, there is nothing wrong with that. I like the sound of Abbey Road 2. :wink: 

D


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## synthnut (Jan 10, 2012)

We are lucky enough to live in a time where we can pick and choose what library we want to use for whatever application ...... This is a good thing .....Some like the sound of LASS while others prefer a smoother sound of HS .....One is not better than the other ....The best program is the one that gives you the tone , the articulations, and the ease if use , for the mood of the music that you are trying to interperet ..... 

To me libraries like HS give you that big, smooth, Hollywood type tone that you hear on large sound tracks ......LASS I'm sure could do that same tone with some EQ'ing , Tape Saturation, Compression , etc ...... To me , the LASS tone is much more detailed , and sounds very good for a smaller type setting whereby the detail needs to shine though ....Take HS on a smaller setting , and to my ears , it does not sound as good as LASS , as it does not have the detail in the tone that LASS has .... This does not mean that HS is a less authentic sounding library ....It just means that you have different libraries for different applications .... You wouldn't stack up 12 solo violin's to make a string section ... You would want a much smoother tone for that application ..... It's easier to take a detailed tone and smooth it out , than it is to take a smoother tone , and try to make it sound more detailed ..... OR we have so many libraries at our disposal , we can pick and choose which library suits our needs .....There's really not a bad library in the bunch ...THey are just different .....Jim


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

synthnut @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> We are lucky enough to live in a time where we can pick and choose what library we want to use for whatever application ...... This is a good thing .....Some like the sound of LASS while others prefer a smoother sound of HS .....One is not better than the other ....The best program is the one that gives you the tone , the articulations, and the ease if use , for the mood of the music that you are trying to interperet .....
> 
> To me libraries like HS give you that big, smooth, Hollywood type tone that you hear on large sound tracks ......LASS I'm sure could do that same tone with some EQ'ing , Tape Saturation, Compression , etc ...... To me , the LASS tone is much more detailed , and sounds very good for a smaller type setting whereby the detail needs to shine though ....Take HS on a smaller setting , and to my ears , it does not sound as good as LASS , as it does not have the detail in the tone that LASS has .... This does not mean that HS is a less authentic sounding library ....It just means that you have different libraries for different applications .... You wouldn't stack up 12 solo violin's to make a string section ... You would want a much smoother tone for that application ..... It's easier to take a detailed tone and smooth it out , than it is to take a smoother tone , and try to make it sound more detailed ..... OR we have so many libraries at our disposal , we can pick and choose which library suits our needs .....There's really not a bad library in the bunch ...THey are just different .....Jim



All true - if you can afford all the libraries and the resources to run them! I think that's the excitement of LASS 2. If it can now do that more lush Hollywood tone - and I think it can - it's the one library to go for. It's more versatile, and it's plays really well.

khollister makes a good point about LASS' musicality. The Auto Arranger really brings this out.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

khollister @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I went through a lot of analysis between LASS, Cinematic Strings & HS before purchasing LASS earlier this year. To me there are two aspects to the "sound" of LASS. The first is the timbre of the instruments along with whatever venue acoustics are baked into the samples. If you are looking for instant gratification on sounding like a John Williams soundtrack, LASS probably isn't your solution. Both HS and CS have an intially more gratifying sound (as well as Albion and to some degree Symphobia), but also more limiting since they are crafted to sound "Hollywood".
> 
> However, the other aspect of the "sound" is the realism of a composition played with the samples. In particular, the clarity of the inner voices and does the passage actually sound like strings rather than someone grabbing a handful of chord on a good string synthesizer. It is this that I feel LASS excels at. When I listen to the HS demos (the downloaded ones, not the crappy MP3's), none of them have the clarity, transparency and openness that LASS (and real string sections) display. CS & HS can sound somewhat thick and closed in.
> 
> ...



Forum members, I would like to respond to this re: HS in this thread since HS is mentioned a lot and a since this is not a commercial announcement from Audiobro but a thread started by a user. I think I have a couple of valid points to make.

However, I do not want to do so if I am going to be once again subjected to charges of my purpose really being to undermine LASS 2, which I would not even actually be mentioning in my reply.

So , you guys tell me.


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## zvenx (Jan 10, 2012)

depends on the OP, but its ok with me.
rsp


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

Yup me too, but it won't stop some people having a pop at you, no doubt.

I agree with your logic - it's not a commercial announcement thread and your EW role is clearly stated in the sig.


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## khollister (Jan 10, 2012)

zvenx @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> how did you get to hear LASS, Cinematic Strings and HS before purchasing? was it just downloads of songs? That to me is where the weakness of the online purchasing is if there is no demo, and that it is rare for a music store to have it installed on their system..
> 
> rsp



Listened to every demo, posted example and YouTube sample/review I could find. I assumed (yeah, I know) that the demos on the vendor's own site would represent what they considered their "best foot forward", so I relied heavily on those for ultimate results that could be achieved. I used the 3rd party examples more as an indication of how easy it might be to use or the results typical of a non-expert user.


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## khollister (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Forum members, I would like to respond to this re: HS in this thread since HS is mentioned a lot and a since this is not a commercial announcement from Audiobro but a thread started by a user. I think I have a couple of valid points to make.
> 
> However, I do not want to do so if I am going to be once again subjected to charges of my purpose really being to undermine LASS 2, which I would not even actually be mentioning in my reply.
> 
> So , you guys tell me.



Jay - since it was my post you obviously took umbrage to, I'll respond.

My point was to try and explain why I chose LASS with respect to sound quality. This was a thread about how LASS sounds (or doesn't sound based on some posters) and I certainly was not trying to start a flame war about whose library is better - god knows we've had enough of that.

I'm relatively new here as a frequent poster, so I don't want to presume to speak for the community at large, but if every time someone expresses an opinion about a library or product , someone else feels they have to jump to it's defense, things will continue to get snarky.

You are in a tough spot (by your own choosing). As a paid rep of EW, it is unrealistic to expect the community to see any of your posts as anything but the response of a competitor whenever the topic of discussion is a library category that EW competes in. Personally, I would recommend passing on the reply in this thread since I think it will take the thread from a discussion about LASS to a foodfight about string libraries, but let your conscience be your guide. It's not that I think you are a bad guy or have nefarious motivations, but it is an inescapable result of you accepting a paid position as an advocate for a particular vendor. 

I realize you are reading my comment as a dig at HS. I suppose it was in a limited kind of way, but I wasn't sure how else to put my feelings about the sound of LASS into context. I think HS has a beautiful tone/hall sound, but my personal opinion (based on the EW demo tunes as I have no other way to try it) is that it is not as appropriate for certain types of orchestration or compositions due to the sonic characteristics. 

I think HS is a great library and I would have at least bought Gold on the recent sale to augment LASS if it weren't for the issues with PLAY on a Mac (I would have had to add the cost of building a PC slave to the cost of the lib). 

It comes down to several of the LASS demos really "blow my skirt up" from a delicacy, transparency, realism standpoint, and none of the HS demos really did that for me. The demos are very smooth, sweet and rich sounding, but seem opaque and a little congested in comparison. And that is a big deal to me personally.

I fully expect you want to come on here an say it ain't so (and maybe I am dead wrong), but that is what I hear with the only means I have to compare them.

I'm really not trying to pick a fight. I am beginning to think I should just not post anything anywhere since everything these days seems to turn into a flame war. It is exactly why I have not put up any examples to illustrate my points because it will turn into 20 posts complaining about my playing, or composition, or ...

Same thing happened with Guy in his other thread. Same thing when some poor bastard tried to post examples of various brass libraries.

I don't think LASS is superior to HS or CS, it's just a better choice for me.


----------



## Lex (Jan 10, 2012)

I personally *love the sound of LASS* and what I can achieve with it. But strange that so far nobody mentioned LASS divisi? To me the fact that the section is divided in 3 groups is very important. It makes everything less static, less perfect and more human, more random. To me this is irreplaceable. I also love the clarity and detail of the sound, but I think it's down to personal taste. 

The thing is that as far as "sound" goes none of them sound like the real section on a big stage...you record samples in a smaller room and they will never "push" enough air around to emulate that big room sound....you record them in a big room and you will get the uncontrollable "air multiplication" build up, that leads to less clarity..So, none of it sounds real, but all of the new libraries sound damn realistic, and I for one am glad that there are several different approaches to sampling same sections, that way there is something for everyone. 

I don't own HS, but I think it sounds gorgeous and also think it can't do what LASS does and vice versa, and so what? 

Oh and btw,thing that I miss in LASS (much more then stuff I saw in 2.0) is true marcato samples and more RR on legatos....

alex


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## Nick Phoenix (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree with a lot said here. LASS has a smaller sound. It has a certain tone which emphasizes high mids due to the micing. This is great for certain apps and not great for others. do they did the color thing to increase flexibility. HS has the grand Hollywood sound nailed, but not the smaller art film sound as much. Although, I believe it can do it easily with the divisi, dozens of people here seem to vehemently insist our divisi is flawed. It baffles me. but there it is. One thing I can tell you is the spatial thickness of tone that HS has, cannot be faked or simulated. it is not an EQ or reverb thing. As to the comments about performance, HS is pretty advanced. It does many things that LASS does not, like allow you to play runs, measured trems, vibrato control at all dynamics, string position, bow change legato, 5 mic positions, more articulations in general, 2 independent, differently sized, violin sections. I personally believe the HS demos are second to none. Thank god for personal taste.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

khollister @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Jay - since it was my post you obviously took umbrage to, I'll respond.
> 
> My point was to try and explain why I chose LASS with respect to sound quality. This was a thread about how LASS sounds (or doesn't sound based on some posters) and I certainly was not trying to start a flame war about whose library is better - god knows we've had enough of that.
> 
> ...



Well, first of all, i did not "take umbrage" although I do disagree with certain specific statements.

Secondly, you are relatively new here but those who have been here a long time know that I had sometimes unpopular opinions that I voiced long before I took the part time job with EW and that is still who I am. I tell it like I see it and let the chips fall where they may.

So:
LASS is a great library and I have no problem with any given user making it his primary choice. I get no royalties or bonuses on HS sales.

I will however say that in the hands of a skilled user, HS can be far more flexible sonically than what you implied in your previous post and let it go at that.


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

_Damage control_ patrol had to chime in :wink: 

Anyway, Lass sound is really great for one reason that hasn't been given yet I think : the way it responds to processing. I hear the great recording engineers say that the best recordings are those that respond best to post-EQ, compression, etc. Simply because you can pretty much take away anything you don't want in a recording, but you simply can't add what was not recorded.

And that's the brilliance of Lass sound : everything is in the recording, it really captures the body, the air and the rich timbre of strings. And therefore you can emphasize any of those characteristics with all the wonderful processing we have access to now even as musicians, be it Waves Tape MPX (to make it sound like Spitfire Albion pretty much) or UA Studer/Ampex, Waves API 550 EQ (works wonders on the mids and "air" bands), Softube TLA-100 compressor that automatically tame quite some harshness (and works pretty much as an automatic de-esser), Abbey Road RS 124 (my god what a creamy compressor. Add butter to all the strings you feed it), Bricasti, Softube Tsar, ValhallaRoom for wonderful reverbs, etc. 

And you pretty much sculpt from the "raw" sound of LASS exactly what you want.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> _Damage control_ patrol had to chime in :wink:



Says the guy with 57 posts :mrgreen: 

No damage control is necessary . HS has been very successful, as has LASS, and I am not part of the sales team, I make no commissions. If you want to be cynical, fine, but I have years of history here saying what I believe to be true whether or not others agreed.


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## Mahlon (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm _still_ struggling with just getting the ARC setup to mimic my old template. Haven't had a chance to explore stage and color yet.

But, speaking of the LASS sound, I take it when folks are talking about LASS tone, they're referring mostly to the violins' tone. Violas are a little edgy as well, but celli are some of the best I've heard from any library and basses certainly seem to hold their own.

The out-of-the-box LASS tone sounds very close to Javier Navarrete's _*Pan's Labyrinth*_recordings. Very close to it. Beautiful, tense sound.

On the other hand, I've mixed LASS with the incredibly, indescribably, unbelievably, out-of-this-worlderly, beautiful tone of Symphobia's violin section soft portato (vln sect soft port is the patch) and it broadens LASS out beautifully. Gives it that nice bump to the note's beginning.

Now, it will be interesting to see if this stage and color will make a difference. Just have to get enough time to experiment.

M.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> _Damage control_ patrol had to chime in :wink:
> 
> Anyway, Lass sound is really great for one reason that hasn't been given yet I think : the way it responds to processing. I hear the great recording engineers say that the best recordings are those that respond best to post-EQ, compression, etc. Simply because you can pretty much take away anything you don't want in a recording, but you simply can't add what was not recorded.
> 
> ...



As someone who has been on the fence about new strings for a number of reasons, I'll chime in and say that in the ideal, I do not want to have to "sculpt" great sounds-I'd rather have strings that are plug and play and sound great out of the box. To me, HS has more of the out of the box sound I crave, yet the Mac/Play issues have held me back. Conversely, I think Audiobro realized that their out of the box sound doesn't have the creaminess of HS and have tried to make LASS more immediately rich sounding with Stage and Color. The demos mostly sound very good to me, but still don't have the lushness of HS, imo....yet they should run well in Kontakt on my Mac.

For the new user or upgrader, especially one using Mac, it's somewhat of a conundrum.


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > _Damage control_ patrol had to chime in :wink:
> ...



No damage control is necessary... Yep, that's why both you and Nick felt the need to post in a thread called "The sound of LASS 2", and managed to not talk about... LASS, but only HS (even though what Nick said is very true according to me as to what HS is and LASS isn't).

With or without 57 posts, it's pretty to see it and say "what I believe to be true whether or not others agree".

I think khollister explained very well why ANY comment you might make in a thread about "The sound of LASS 2" would sidetrack the conversation. But you had to do it anyway.

I'll leave it a that, me and my now 58 posts, and say that I've also HS and it's brilliant. But the thread is about "The sound of LASS 2" and unless you have some relevant points to make about "The sound of LASS 2", well... post anyway, I'm not a mod here


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I think khollister explained very well why ANY comment you might make in a thread about "The sound of LASS 2" would sidetrack the conversation. But you had to do it anyway.



1. Well that is why i asked and almost immediately 2 longer term members who know full well who I am said "sure, go ahead." But there is always one like you in every thread I participate in and it is your right to disagree.

2. I am not the one who in interjected HS as part of the discussion, the OP did. And once it WAS introduced, i think it becomes fair to comment on HS specific statements. At no time did I say anything comparing LASS with HS. I only commented on a statement specifically about HS with which I disagree.


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I think khollister explained very well why ANY comment you might make in a thread about "The sound of LASS 2" would sidetrack the conversation. But you had to do it anyway.
> ...



I get your points Jay, and I understand you consider them valid. But from an ethical point of view (mine per say), if I were you, I would consider starting a new thread linking to the post you want to make a comment about, rather than highjacking (might be a bit extreme of a term, but hell I'm french, we always aim for the worst... and we don't speak english very well ) a thread which topic is about the sound of a competitor's library. 

If you start such a thread, I've absolutely no problem. If this thread was called "Comparing the sound of LASS 2 and HS", I wouldn't have any problem at all.

*Back on topic*, I would really like to hear more LASS 2 Stage & Colors demos since I didn't get the chance yet to update. From Andrew's video, I got the impression that the Lord of the rings profile (hmm "fellowship ring") was pretty spot on, but I didn't A/B it and it could pretty much be the simple fact that notes were sounding familiar.

Anyone can comment on this specific profile ?


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 10, 2012)

For me, this is the, "If you can only have one beer..." thread!

While working on my next review of the MV strings with the NAMM updates, I tested it with HS Gold, LASS, and VSL using The Princes In The Tower by William Walton from the movie Richard III.

Five obvious conclusions:

1. Each library has its own unique sound especially when testing with vertical five-part harmony.

2. Each library has its own set of feature benefits and controls including mic position choicing.

3. Each library has its own set of music production procedures.

4. Each library overall has some bowings (articulations) the others don't.

5. No ONE library has all the bowings nor all the shades of bowings possible on a string instrument.

If you intend to write for pay, one library is NOT going to be enough. You need two or more. As it has always been.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

I am getting really bored of the Jay-bashing. Give it a rest - it's far more tiresome and predictable than anything he is ever accused of doing.

But in the spirit of moving on:



Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> *Back on topic*, I would really like to hear more LASS 2 Stage & Colors demos since I didn't get the chance yet to update. From Andrew's video, I got the impression that the Lord of the rings profile (hmm "fellowship ring") was pretty spot on, but I didn't A/B it and it could pretty much be the simple fact that notes were sounding familiar.
> 
> Anyone can comment on this specific profile ?



I've so focused on Shaw, I haven't done an A/B with any other profile til now. So just done it, just pressed the magic Fellowship Ring button with Stage, Color and FX all enabled, and it's terrific. Buggered if I'm doing another mockup, but just playing along here with the OST its an uncanny match, I'd say. So if you want a one-button score sound out of the box, if that score is Fellowship Of The Ring, then I'd order LASS 2 without delay.

Which, of course, makes me think all the more that something kind of messed up with the Shaw profile!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

[quote="Theseus @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:08 pm"
If you start such a thread, I've absolutely no problem. If this thread was called "Comparing the sound of LASS 2 and HS", I wouldn't have any problem at all.

[/quote]

That is exactly what I do NOT want to do. I have zero interest in any "Library A vs Library B" threads. it is not effective because even if i say what I believe I understandably get accused of prejudice.

The bottom line is if someone makes a comment about an EW library that I think is factually incorrect in a non-commercial announcement thread, I am going to attempt to counter it. I see no ethical problem with that as long as I am writing what I believe to be true and when I am not the one who first brings it up. It is in my signature who i work for.

You are free to do what the French do best, which is say "au contraire." Just kidding! :D


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I am getting really bored of the Jay-bashing. Give it a rest - it's far more tiresome and predictable than anything he is ever accused of doing.
> 
> But in the spirit of moving on:
> 
> ...



Thanks ! So my senses didn't fail me... And from what I heard in your thread about Shaw, I would say yours didn't fail you either, and the "airy" profil definitely gets closer to the OST as far as I'm concerned.

We're really living the times.



> Eastwest Lurker : "The bottom line is if someone makes a comment about an EW library that I think is factually incorrect in a non-commercial announcement thread, *I am going to attempt to counter it*."



Hence the "damage control" comment above that you just confirmed. There was a smiley, you decided to take it to another level. But I understand from Guy's post above that you get that all the time, and yet you keep doing it... all the time, as it seems. So I'll give you the benefit of perseverance and standing up for your opinions, even though it puts you in a difficult position repeatedly. Peace ?


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## kgdrum (Jan 10, 2012)

Re: The sound of LASS 2 
Posted: Today at 3:46 pm	
Theseus @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:36 pm wrote:



"I think khollister explained very well why ANY comment you might make in a thread about "The sound of LASS 2" would sidetrack the conversation. But you had to do it anyway. 



1. Well that is why i asked and almost immediately 2 longer term members who know full well who I am said "sure, go ahead." But there is always one like you in every thread I participate in and it is your right to disagree. 

2. I am not the one who in interjected HS as part of the discussion, the OP did. And once it WAS introduced, i think it becomes fair to comment on HS specific statements. At no time did I say anything comparing LASS with HS. I only commented on a statement specifically about HS with which I disagree."


Jay- I'm the OP
Everyone here knows you have your agenda but let's be clear, as the OP , I never mentioned HS, never mentioned East West & started this thread to talk about LASS.
Please do not state I made a reference to HS, even w/ your agenda ,please try to stay factual w/ the discussion.
I appreciate the fact that Theseus as the developer posted here and honestly his response whether he has 1 post or a 1000 posts is way more pertinent to to the spirit of the discussion. The way you always seem make any thread you jump into and change the focus towards EW, is getting tired & old.
+1 with what Theseus said:a great answer that rings "true" & helps me understand as the OP, the Audiobro approach and confirms this is a company I feel like giving my $$ to unlike others that always seem defensive about any discussion that indirectly mentions their product.
Also to agree with an earlier post, as a Mac user I will not use any product from any company that has such an inefficient engine that usually requires a 2nd computer or newer computer to work well (preferably PC) or a slave to work correctly, some of us like and use Kontakt based libraries and yes all of my EW libraries are pre-Play. 
There are just too many limitations w/ Play , FOR ME and the way I want to work.
But this belongs in a thread concerning Play not LASS. 
Best,
KG


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> [
> 
> Hence the "damage control" comment above that you just confirmed. There was a smiley, you decided to take it to another level. But I understand from Guy's post above that you get that all the time, and yet you keep doing it... all the time, as it seems. So I'll give you the benefit of perseverance and standing up for your opinions, even though it puts you in a difficult position repeatedly. Peace ?



I am sorry but I cannot let that stand. "Damage control" at least in the American usage, implies an attempt to minimize the consequences of something that was done wrong, dishonestly, or screwed up. Both HS and LASS have achieved IMHO exactly what they set out to do. There is no "damage control" needed for either one. They are two terrific libraries that were recorded with different philosophies.

if we can just agree on that, I am done.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

kgdrum @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Re: The sound of LASS 2
> Posted: Today at 3:46 pm
> Theseus @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:36 pm wrote:
> 
> ...



Oops, sorry KG, it was not you who mentioned HS. I stand corrected and apologize for putting words in your mouth.


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## khollister (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> *Back on topic*, I would really like to hear more LASS 2 Stage & Colors demos since I didn't get the chance yet to update. From Andrew's video, I got the impression that the Lord of the rings profile (hmm "fellowship ring") was pretty spot on, but I didn't A/B it and it could pretty much be the simple fact that notes were sounding familiar.
> 
> Anyone can comment on this specific profile ?



The Ring preset is pretty drenched in reverb (off course that is easy to change). Given my brief seat time with the upgrade so far, the Barb's Adagio 71 preset is the one I would go to if I was looking for "push button" sound. You can also get a little more of the "sound" by pushing everything back in the stage it seems.

I did a very quick comparison, but it seemed to me that Barb's Adagio was pretty similar in sound to the Symphobia stage mic strings. I was thinking I could intermix those pretty easily.


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



I believe "Eristische Dialektik: Die Kunst, Recht zu Behalten" (Schopenhauer) is your bedside book 

Guess what ? I invented the concept before him. It goes like this :



> The term is also used in project management and other contexts to describe the actions needed to deal with any problem that may jeopardize an endeavor. *As well, it has been adopted for use in politics and media to describe a need to suppress information or employ spin doctors to represent a response to a situation.*



The "American usage"... that's really excellent ! What are the other languages usages of an English term ?!? I'm really curious. No, seriously, I rest my case. Damn French people, always giving lessons !

*Anyway*, I listened once again to Andrew's A/B demo, and I'll definitely give a good spin to the Lord of the fellowship of the ringing hobbits profile, as it sounds terrific to my ears.


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## khollister (Jan 10, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I've so focused on Shaw, I haven't done an A/B with any other profile til now. So just done it, just pressed the magic Fellowship Ring button with Stage, Color and FX all enabled, and it's terrific. Buggered if I'm doing another mockup, but just playing along here with the OST its an uncanny match, I'd say. So if you want a one-button score sound out of the box, if that score is Fellowship Of The Ring, then I'd order LASS 2 without delay.
> 
> Which, of course, makes me think all the more that something kind of messed up with the Shaw profile!



I agree that the Shaw preset is rather, umm ... disappointing compared to a few of the others I tried. The color part is very subtle IMHO aside from the reverb.


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

khollister @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> The Ring preset is pretty drenched in reverb (off course that is easy to change). Given my brief seat time with the upgrade so far, the Barb's Adagio 71 preset is the one I would go to if I was looking for "push button" sound. You can also get a little more of the "sound" by pushing everything back in the stage it seems.
> 
> I did a very quick comparison, but it seemed to me that Barb's Adagio was pretty similar in sound to the Symphobia stage mic strings. I was thinking I could intermix those pretty easily.



Thanks, I'll also check the Barb's Adagio. How does the Ring profile stands without the verb ? I intend anyway to use my own reverbs over convolution for 2 reasons :

1/ they'll sound better
2/ convolution in Kontakt is VERY processor-intensive.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I believe "Eristische Dialektik: Die Kunst, Recht zu Behalten" (Schopenhauer) is your bedside book



Actually it is "Crime and Punishment' by Fyodor Dostoevski, in the original Russian, of course


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## khollister (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Thanks, I'll also check the Barb's Adagio. How does the Ring profile stands without the verb ? I intend anyway to use my own reverbs over convolution for 2 reasons :
> 
> 1/ they'll sound better
> 2/ convolution in Kontakt is VERY processor-intensive.



Sitting here trying violins with all of the presets with the reverb turned off. I think Shaws is my least favorite followed by Fellowship Ring (!) without the reverb. Village is very nice as is Barb.


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe "Eristische Dialektik: Die Kunst, Recht zu Behalten" (Schopenhauer) is your bedside book
> ...



Had you written his name correctly - Fyodor Dostoyevsky, with two "y" (even though certain translators avoid the first "y", but it's factually incorrect as the name spells Достоевский in Russian - I would have believed you 

I just did a little A/B test with youtube videos based on Andrew's Stage&Color introduction : Lord of the rings is really spot on !


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> ...



Had you written his name correctly - Fyodor Dostoyevsky, with two "y" (even though certain translators avoid the first "y", but it's factually incorrect as the name spells Достоевский in Russian - I would have believed you 

/quote]

The copy I have owned since college has it ending with an "i'.

http://community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/ ... ames.shtml


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## Hannes_F (Jan 10, 2012)

I don't know - every thread that Jay is participating in degenerates into purely personal topics. Discussion about personalities instead of the subject. Is this really really necessary? 

(I am asking this towards all directions).


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## NYC Composer (Jan 10, 2012)

"I challenge you to a dual duel! Russian translations at ten paces...DRAW!!" (followed by)
"Penii at ten paces.....URINATE!!".

Winner take all/higher moral ground/heavyweight battle for supremacy. Film @ 11.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I don't know - every thread that Jay is participating in degenerates into purely personal topics. Discussion about personalities instead of the subject. Is this really really necessary?
> 
> (I am asking this towards all directions).



Sorry for my part. Just trying to keep things lighter. After all, these are just sample libraries, not life and death.


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## Ed (Jan 10, 2012)

I think its worth pointing out that while I dont actually LIKE the sound of VSL strings, I LIKE the sound of LASS for certain things (as Nick says). Its just because most of things Im looking for Im looking for a different sound I end up being disappointed so often by LASS's sound. Usually I want a warm, soft, Newman type sound from my strings as a general rule. Hence why when I hear so many pieces where LASS is being used in a context where warm silky strings would sound best then LASS ends up usually sounding not so pleasant. I'd buy LASS for sure for plenty of applications. I think more than ever we have a choice that can be on what it does best, rather than that simply wondering which library is better. We can buy the libraries that are not jack of all trades and I think thats the best way to go. I'd rather have a woodwind library that ONLY gave me soft dynamics, for example than one trying to give me everything.


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## Lex (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know - every thread that Jay is participating in degenerates into purely personal topics. Discussion about personalities instead of the subject. Is this really really necessary?
> ...



Jay, are you using LASS in your work?

alex


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 10, 2012)

I am glad I have a pair of brown shoes and black shoes (LASS/HS). I love both of them and would soon part with my neighbors Terrier than give either away. ~o) One day one serves - one day the other. Most of the time I use BOTH everyday.

Personally, I love the LASS FC's with HS for a wide range of styles. 

I will say that LASS' ARC is an incredible feat of software development. IMHO.


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## playz123 (Jan 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I don't know - every thread that Jay is participating in degenerates into purely personal topics. Discussion about personalities instead of the subject. Is this really really necessary?
> 
> (I am asking this towards all directions).



IMHO, no it's not necessary. I've only been participating here for a few months, but I've already learned there seems to be certain people and certain products that, for some reason, will set some one or other off, but why that is, I don't know... and don't care. I'm willing to listen to all opinions, and not judge in advance. I don't care whether it's Jay, Nick or Doug from EW or folks like Eric Persing from Spectrasonics, or who it is, ...on a forum they have every right to express their opinions the same as I have. Many of developers and members here have a lot of knowledge to share, and just because they work for one company or the other, it doesn't mean that every time they post, they must be accused of being biased or whatever.
I really enjoy reading all the different opinions, and if I don't agree with someone, I try to say so respectfully. Anyway, like may others, I'd get a lot more out this forum if we could all try to stay on topic most of the time.

Speaking of LASS 2, as an 'owner' of that product plus HS, Albion, Kirk Hunter Concert Strings and many other fine products, I suggest that each has merit. I wasn't thrilled with the original "sound" of LASS, and found many of the samples very 'noisy', a little harsh and needing work. But the programming and attention to detail and the quality of the product has always been excellent. I also feel the new stage and colour presets are a wonderful addition, and now the "sound" is getting closer to what I like to hear. Even the Airy Strings preset is a useful addition...in my opinion. So I'm thrilled with the new release, and once K 5.0.2 is out, hopefully that will help as well.

Finally, with regards to the other libraries I mentioned, I consider each to be useful, and which one or combination of libraries I use depends on the project. But since this is a LASS 2 thread, I'll refrain from commenting on them further at this time.


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## jamwerks (Jan 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> I don't know - every thread that Jay is participating in degenerates into purely personal topics. Discussion about personalities instead of the subject. Is this really really necessary?



Agreed. I was enjoying reading this thread until someone (who actually works for another maker) keeps posting a bunch of nonsense, says he's done, then keeps going.
And this is not the first time. :roll:


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## khollister (Jan 10, 2012)

Vln, Vln2, Vla legato with Village, reverb off. QLSpaces San Francisco Hall TS RR. UAD Harrison EQ, +3 at 800Hz, LASS EQ off

Wow - this give Albion legato a run for it's money. 

Color me happy (pun intended).


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## Ed (Jan 10, 2012)

khollister @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Vln, Vln2, Vla legato with Village, reverb off. QLSpaces San Francisco Hall TS RR. UAD Harrison EQ, +3 at 800Hz
> 
> Wow - this give Albion legato a run for it's money.
> 
> Color me happy (pun intended).



Any examples?


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## Theseus (Jan 10, 2012)

khollister @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, I'll also check the Barb's Adagio. How does the Ring profile stands without the verb ? I intend anyway to use my own reverbs over convolution for 2 reasons :
> ...



Thanks for your input. I really think that finding the right "Color" and then applying a great algorithmic reverb will give stellar results. I was already pretty happy with 1.5, using a chain with Summit Audio TLA-100, Abbey Road RS124 (strictly for the tone and not for compression), API 550 (low pass, drastic cut at 5khz and little "air band" boost), Waves MPX Tape and Slate Virtual Console Brit N(eve), which basically got me insanely close to Albion tone, but those Color profiles are really something else.

*Edit* : hehe, I just saw your post above, I guess we were targetting a similar "tone"  The setup you describe makes for a much easier solution than my chain and given your reaction, I suspect it gets you even closer. Color me happy too !



> Vln, Vln2, Vla legato with Village, reverb off. QLSpaces San Francisco Hall TS RR. UAD Harrison EQ, +3 at 800Hz, LASS EQ off
> 
> Wow - this give Albion legato a run for it's money.
> 
> Color me happy (pun intended).


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Theseus @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe "Eristische Dialektik: Die Kunst, Recht zu Behalten" (Schopenhauer) is your bedside book
> ...



Don't you mean the original Klingon...


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## kgdrum (Jan 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know - every thread that Jay is participating in degenerates into purely personal topics. Discussion about personalities instead of the subject. Is this really really necessary?
> ...




Why then do your posts besides being self-serving always reek of EW defensive mode tactics? just saying :roll:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

kgdrum @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> ...



it's so funny because 2 years ago I would have got this exact same kind of comment for some other libraries I spoke up for when I thought comments were made that were factually incorrect. And I DIDN"T work for those developers. I tell you if EW had not offered me this job I would have done the same exact thing. 

Anyway, back to LASS 2 which as I said earlier, is a terrific achievement by Andrew and his team.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> I was enjoying reading this thread until someone (who actually works for another maker) keeps posting a bunch of nonsense, says he's done, then keeps going.
> And this is not the first time. :roll:



Its this kind of post that colossoly, massively, piss me off. The problem here is not Jay, it is YOU.

This thread is a textbook example of what is happening time and again now. Jay, I've already seen, has congratulated Andrew and Audibro on a great release (he's already said he's going essentially restrict comment to EW stuff). Someone starts a thread about the LASS 2 sound. Soon the conversation widens - someone makes a lengthy posts comparing LASS with HS, which of course is fine. Jay then asks (for goodness sakes) if he can comment on the HS part. A couple of us say "of course" - even though I point it he'll be hammered for it, cos he always is - and one person says "maybe not" - I guess cos we can all see what'll happen if he dares to say anything at all. When he does post, it's short, corrects what he sees is an innacurate statement about HS, and that's that. Yet for that perfectly valid comment, about a 100 posters all wade in with infantile comments about "oh here he goes again". What a load of crap. What was one perfectly reasonable sentence is suddenly turned into precisely what the critics claim to hate - thread derailment. Because of the critics.

For the love of God, let it go people. I'm sure someone now will want to post a 3 page history lesson on all supposed past crimes, but please don't, we've been here before. It just looks nasty, it looks like sour grapes at best. The reason why this is another of an increasingly long line of really interesting threads that is going off the rails is NOT because of Jay Asher, it is because of a band of Jay-haters who seem to love nothing more than ripping into him publicly again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again til we all forget why we're here in the first place. If I were a teacher, I'd be laying into you and making you stand to face the wall for the rest of the lesson.

Right.

*LASS 2*. I'd love to hear a little example comparing The Village sound with Albion, for example - I don't have Albion. Any takers? Thus far it's a little frustrating that I'm the only one to have posted something.... I feel like I've done my bit!


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## Hannes_F (Jan 11, 2012)

I was asking my question towards all parties with purpose, not only to Jay. Maybe I have no right to ask for it but nevertheless, please everybody, if you can, de-sharpen and de-escalate a bit - thank you.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 11, 2012)

Nobody has mentioned the LASS sordinos yet. IMO they sound gorgeous, never had any problems while listening to them.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 11, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> Nobody has mentioned the LASS sordinos yet. IMO they sound gorgeous, never had any problems while listening to them.



I agree - they sound fantastic out of the 1.x box. With LASS 2, the sordino profiles are ready, but we're waiting on an update to the LS instruments themselves before they will integrate with the ARC, so no-one's had a chance to play with the new colors yet.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 11, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> With LASS 2, the sordino profiles are ready, but we're waiting on an update to the LS instruments themselves before they will integrate with the ARC, so no-one's had a chance to play with the new colors yet.



Hmm ... from the stage & color video I got the impression the sordinos would already be ready to use in the 2.0 version, no? That is why I bought them, but I'm still downloading ...

Anyways ... the existence of these sordinos shows (for me) that some of the arguments concerning the sound of LASS 1 are a bit moot. They sound a bit bright/harsh, and that has nothing to do with people not knowing how live strings sound or being unexperienced or used to a hyped hollywood sound. They are recorded on the bright side, period.

Factors that _can _lead to recordings on the bright side are

- microphones quite close
- use of cardioid microphones over omni or wide cardioids
- use of large membrane microphones over small membrane microphones
- height of microphone position plays a role
- use of preamps that add color
- use of compressors in the recording chain

with other words everything that adds or enhances harmonic content.

The quality of the players affect it too, of course. Better players can play loud and brilliant if needed without making it sound harsh. Unexperienced players (including unexperienced professionals) can sound unnecessarily raw.

It has to be mentioned in favor to bright string recordings that many listeners (especially composers) love brightness in general. Actually with orchestra recordings we have what could jokingly be called a "brightness war". Therefore if you have a natural string recording there is often the need to brighten it up in the mix, especially in a pop mix but also often for film music. That is why some engineers already record on the bright side (as seemingly has happened with LASS 1).

I personally love it when strings can change from dark over natural to bright, so there is a place for everything.


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## lux (Jan 11, 2012)

I like the sound of LASS, it responds nicely to some EQ as well. The velocity based attack and legato makes it also very handy to use.

Its Kontakt format and the very reasonable amount of resources it demands makes it an A-class type of choice for me.

The obligation for a clustering computer scheme is something which has prevented me from getting HS for a very long time and still does, unfortunately.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 11, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > With LASS 2, the sordino profiles are ready, but we're waiting on an update to the LS instruments themselves before they will integrate with the ARC, so no-one's had a chance to play with the new colors yet.
> ...



It WILL do, and the profiles are there already, but they can't yet be sent to LS. Andrew said over at the Audiobro forum that they want to catch any early ARC glitches before they update the LS patches I think - hopefully not too long to wait.


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## Arbee (Jan 11, 2012)

Not sure if this is of interest (bear in mind it's LASS 1.x), and I know there is limited value in these shootouts, but for anyone interested:

http://blog.timespace.com/2012/01/string-shootouts-%E2%80%93-whats-your-preference/ (http://blog.timespace.com/2012/01/strin ... reference/)


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## Erik (Jan 12, 2012)

Hi,

There is a http://eotte.blogspot.com/2012/01/lass-2.html (new addition on my blog with many examples, dedicated exclusively to LASS2).

I hope you can hear all differences well in the MP3 format (320Kbps).

Any suggestions etc. are more than welcome.

Best,
Erik


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 12, 2012)

Cheers Erik! What might stop a deluge of requests from all corners is if you just did the out-of-the-box Stage and Color presets with everything enabled - reverb, stage and color, all at their default values. That seems to be what people want to hear. You've got some good examples there, but so far none demonstrate what I hear as the basic S&C starting point, I don't think, especially from the reverbs.


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## Theseus (Jan 12, 2012)

Erik @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is a http://eotte.blogspot.com/2012/01/lass-2.html (new addition on my blog with many examples, dedicated exclusively to LASS2).
> 
> ...



That was very usefull and well done Erik, thanks.
I love how you used Decapitator. Soundtoys intended it for abusing, but it's true that with subtelty, it's great. You should try Waves MPX tape and Slate VCC plugins for the same purposes, they get you different "colors" of harmonic distortions, more subtle and easier to adjust and sound really great too.

Your test kind of confirm that the Barb's adagio profil sounds REALLY good !


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## Hicks (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks Erik.

Sounds really good and helpfull.
It shows me than LASS 2 sound can be lush and romantic like (harmonic distorsion is far sufficient to get the Hollywood sounds and you showed it!)
There are some weird stereo movement some times, especially on those glissandi.


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## Erik (Jan 12, 2012)

Thank you for your kind replies.

I hope to do also some celli examples as soon as possible. I'll let you know of course.

Erik


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## Niah (Jan 14, 2012)

Lex @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I personally *love the sound of LASS* and what I can achieve with it. But strange that so far nobody mentioned LASS divisi? To me the fact that the section is divided in 3 groups is very important. It makes everything less static, less perfect and more human, more random. To me this is irreplaceable. I also love the clarity and detail of the sound, but I think it's down to personal taste.



LASS divisi was the main reason it got my attention when it came out and I also feel that it's not as appreciated as it should. Perhaps most people simply don't create music using the possibilities that LASS divisi has to offer. As opposed to other libraries that have smaller sections LASS has "true divisi" and it really makes a different IMO and adds that human element you speak of, not the mention helping in creating that illusion of an ensemble of musicians performing more than any other lib.

I was never too impressed with the "fake" divisi of HS, and I really don't know why but it just sounds weird to my ears. Interesting enough I love the sound of the HS sordinos which are also "faked" as opposed to the sordinos in LASS which don't really float my boat.

Speaking more concretely about LASS's sound I think it is a neutral sound so to speak, not as neutral as VSL nor with a very defined character as HS or other libraries. 
Because of that reason I was very happy to hear the announcement of the Stage and Colour feature but at the same time I was quite skeptical. It is just an incredibly difficult task to match the sound of certain recordings with just simply processing the sound. IMO if you want a certain sound you just have to record it the way you want it to sound period. Now I'm not saying that the S+ C is useless, I think it's great and particularly an excellent tool to bring new life to LASS not to mention a great starting point to give LASS some new clothes but it just won't get you close enough to the sound of those recordings IMO...and that I already expected because this technology to me still hasn't give enough convincing results or I just am too attached to the original sound of those recordings and it's very hard for me to accept anything that is less than close.

In sum I think overall LASS seems more impressive for it's performance features than the sound to some people.


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## JohannesR (Jan 14, 2012)

I´ve been reading a lot of the posts about the sound of LASS 2.0 and it´s S&C feature since it came out. What surprises me is that quite a few is disappointed because they can hear a difference between LASS and the recording it was supposed to sound like with the S&C feature. I think you have a bit too high expectations.



Niah @ Sat Jan 14 said:


> It is just an incredibly difficult task to match the sound of certain recordings with just simply processing the sound. IMO if you want a certain sound you just have to record it the way you want it to sound period.


In fact, I did not expect it to be as good as it really is because of what Niah is pointing out: It is simply not possible to make a recording sound like anything you might want with a push of a button. If that was case, no one would bother to record on a world class scoring stage which cost A LOT of money - neither hire an engineer. And as you LASS 2.0 S&C sceptics might have noticed; there is no Frank Sinatra-lizer for vocalists either - making any vocal sketch indistinguishable from his recordings.

As far as I remember from one of the LASS videos/podcast, the developers´aim was to provide some sonic variations out of the box for the ones who don´t want to get their hands dirty with processing themselves - not making real orchestra recordings obsolete. We are still in the sample world, and the S&C feature provide some new really cool sonic possibilities for LASS at a flip of a switch.

What´s not to like?


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 14, 2012)

JohannesR @ Sat Jan 14 said:


> What´s not to like?



Amen. As most of you know, I spent some time obsessing over the Shawshank thing, but these things are really artificial exercises. The Fellowship preset sounds uncannily like the recording to me, Shaw's Redemption doesn't sound like the OST at all. But in the final analysis, the only important thing for S&C is if it gives a good variety of useable tones for original material. The answer is already an emphatic "yes", and there's plenty more on the way, clearly. Few, if any, of us will be called on to mock up an existing OST in the real world, though we might well want a warm sound, a vintage sound, a modern orchestral blockbuster sound, intimate etc etc.


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## Consona (Mar 6, 2012)

Theseus @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> Thanks for your input. I really think that finding the right "Color" and then applying a great algorithmic reverb will give stellar results. I was already pretty happy with 1.5, using a chain with Summit Audio TLA-100, Abbey Road RS124 (strictly for the tone and not for compression), API 550 (low pass, drastic cut at 5khz and little "air band" boost), Waves MPX Tape and Slate Virtual Console Brit N(eve), *which basically got me insanely close to Albion tone*, but those Color profiles are really something else.





khollister @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> Vln, Vln2, Vla legato with Village, reverb off. QLSpaces San Francisco Hall TS RR. UAD Harrison EQ, +3 at 800Hz, LASS EQ off
> 
> Wow - *this give Albion legato a run for it's money*.
> 
> Color me happy (pun intended).



Could you post some examples? Especially those with saturation plugins on LASS. I like the idea that sound of LASS could be shaped so much.


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