# Potential of Epic Music - and Business models



## MoeWalsaad (Jan 3, 2019)

Hello,

Since before it becomes a trend, and before the age of Social media, It's been my passion since childhood to create Epic, Emotional, Fantasy and melodic music, that is not exactly trailer music nor made for a specific film score.

I create countless sketches and ideas every day, and I sketch lots of deep self expressions and fantasies, I have confidence that my ideas are powerful enough and deserves to be heard, I release singles once every while, and released a compilation album few years ago mostly for the sake of fun, experience and portfolio, and all I get is bunch of complements, and fans messaging me to thank me for the music.
but lately I'm getting frustrating because the music is not brining a material outcome that is required for living, I absolutly deserve more than complements and thanks messages, 
And losing hope in finishing newer music, because I don't feel finishing it will be rewarding no matter how Great I feel the music sounds. and instead of working on my passion, I spend my time busy with freelance and other commercial music jobs that "Pays the bills", I finish my day and my ears and head are too exhausted to work on more music.
And I feel very bad at the end of the day because I didn't express my authenticity as I should, I'm babysitting a shallow low-consciousness commercial market, throwing my precious golds in cheap- low-paid projects, and worse than that I'm barely paying the bills.


There is no doubt that *EPIC music changed lives, and the most influential people, leaders, writers, sports legends, film makers, and artists around the world today declares that Epic music is their favorite music.

Epic music is making Billions of views on Youtube and other platforms, so I know the Demand exists! *But to me *it seems like the ones who are benefiting from Epic music business are not the composers rather than the Epic Music YouTube Channel Runners, third parties, Software/plugins developers, platforms, and Music schools and courses makers.

In other words, Epic music composers seems to become the consumers in the business models, not the sellers!*

So how does this industry bring returns to the composers who did the hard work?

What is the business model for epic composers?

What motivates these composers to keep doing what they do spending their limited time/effort/money unless if the music pays for itself and feel rewarded enough?

Is there is a gap in business that all successful epic music composers know about but I'm missing?


Thanks!


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## blougui (Jan 3, 2019)

1st things 1st : finish your epic tracks rather than stop halfway ?
It's not before you're through with your trials-attempts that you can call it a day.
Or this : I don't understand why you complain about epic music and your great ideas not being rewarded if you never finish your epic tracks nor show them to the Big Wide World ?
Why not just do it rather than over thinking it ?

Best,Erik


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## MartinH. (Jan 3, 2019)

MoeWalsaad said:


> Epic music is making Billions of views on Youtube and other platforms, so I know the Demand exists!



What percentage of those are "just music" and not a soundtrack to a movie or game that people like? How does that percentage change if you exclude Two steps from hell from the statistic?


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## ghostnote (Jan 3, 2019)

MoeWalsaad said:


> What is the business model for epic composers?


Look, if you like Epic Music, then go for it. Do your thing, do what you love... But talking business is a way different tier. Truth is that the demand you're decribing is based solely on the consumer market (youtube views, music streaming, maybe a couple of digital sales).

Which leads me to the question: How exactly do you define a "sucessful epic music composer"? Youtubers know how tough it is to squeeze money out from ads. Don't expect to get more than 1000$ for 1 million views. How likely is it to get 2 videos with those figures, a month? Sales and streaming won't get you rich either.

Trailermusic however is something different. It's made to get licensed because of tempo, tension and feel. I'm talking usability here. Doesn't matter if "Ice in the Sunshine" or "Heart of Courage". If there is a demand for it, then it's spot on. Music business is not about you.


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## KallumS (Jan 3, 2019)

You will rarely be in the perfect head-space to create music, and the initial thrill of starting a track will always wear off. The trick is to power through until completion.


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## bfreepro (Jan 3, 2019)

If you want to really make a living writing epic music, make (finish) as many songs as you can and perfect your craft, possibly doing work for hire thru online freelance platforms, etc. When you feel your ready, submit to music libraries, they will get your music in the hands of people who actually value it and want to use it for their projects, and you can earn very good income from doing so. YouTube views, Soundcloud plays, generally for a media composer, none of that really means sh*t. Every single TV show, movie trailer, video game, ad, has music playing, and 99% of the time, the general public has no idea who writes the music, and they really don't care. Same thing with YouTube, maybe people will listen from the playlist being spammed to oblivion, but the majority won't care who writes it, and more importantly, it's generally not going to further your career or allow you to make a living off it. Yeah it's great that people like epic music, but be smart and find an outlet to actually get paid. Get your music in the hands of professionals who know the market and actually care. Forget the social media buzz. The person who wrote the music for your favorite movie trailer probably made good money doing so (and probably has countless other credits), and most likely no one really knows who it is, besides others in the field and what not. That's how success is achieved and how income is earned, through making meaningful connections in the business and educating yourself about all possible income streams. When it comes to making a connection, generally it's quality over quantity. I know you said you want to make music that's not for a trailer or film, but really, that's the basic point of being a modern composer in the first place, to contribute your creativity to enhance the project. There's also the route of just releasing an album full of epic music. Generally, you need to build up your portfolio and prove that you have something worth buying first. The instrumental albums that really sell tons of copies usually come from people who have established careers as a media composer already.


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 3, 2019)

blougui said:


> 1st things 1st : finish your epic tracks rather than stop halfway ?
> It's not before you're through with your trials-attempts that you can call it a day.
> Or this : I don't understand why you complain about epic music and your great ideas not being rewarded if you never finish your epic tracks nor show them to the Big Wide World ?
> Why not just do it rather than over thinking it ?
> ...



I indeed finish some music music and , release singles every while, I released a compilation album in 2015 and it was promoted in several ways, and some of my music was used to make views in Epic music channels and one of my tracked was featured (without my direct permission) in one highly watched epic music lists, It's not that I'm overthinking, I just feel that particular kind of music that I like to create is not paying for it self, and don't know how to channel this energy in a way that can bring an outcome back to me.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 3, 2019)

Romantic music has sure made a big comeback! (What’s that? It never went away? Just left the concert hall - after Mahler - for the movies?)


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## KallumS (Jan 3, 2019)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Romantic music has sure made a big comeback!



What about epic romantic music?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 3, 2019)

KallumS said:


> What about epic romantic music?


You’re getting my point, me thinks.


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 3, 2019)

ghostnote said:


> Look, if you like Epic Music, then go for it. Do your thing, do what you love... But talking business is a way different tier. Truth is that the demand you're decribing is based solely on the consumer market (youtube views, music streaming, maybe a couple of digital sales).
> 
> Which leads me to the question: How exactly do you define a "sucessful epic music composer"? Youtubers know how tough it is to squeeze money out from ads. Don't expect to get more than 1000$ for 1 million views. How likely is it to get 2 videos with those figures, a month? Sales and streaming won't get you rich either.
> 
> Trailermusic however is something different. It's made to get licensed because of tempo, tension and feel. I'm talking usability here. Doesn't matter if "Ice in the Sunshine" or "Heart of Courage". If there is a demand for it, then it's spot on. Music business is not about you.



You gotta point, yet I'm wondering whether there are successful epic music composers who benefit from doing epic music directly and make the music for the sake of Music (not for film/Trailers).
I would love to learn who are these composers and what we can learn/inspire from them how they became able to do what they do.

TSFH absolutely one, if they can afford recording a live orchestra, then the music should be paying for its self and highly enough to afford that, if not, doing the music wouldn't be wise to produce such costly music.
If so, then what business model is that?


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 3, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> If you want to really make a living writing epic music, make (finish) as many songs as you can and perfect your craft, possibly doing work for hire thru online freelance platforms, etc. When you feel your ready, submit to music libraries, they will get your music in the hands of people who actually value it and want to use it for their projects, and you can earn very good income from doing so. YouTube views, Soundcloud plays, generally for a media composer, none of that really means sh*t. Every single TV show, movie trailer, video game, ad, has music playing, and 99% of the time, the general public has no idea who writes the music, and they really don't care. Same thing with YouTube, maybe people will listen from the playlist being spammed to oblivion, but the majority won't care who writes it, and more importantly, it's generally not going to further your career or allow you to make a living off it. Yeah it's great that people like epic music, but be smart and find an outlet to actually get paid. Get your music in the hands of professionals who know the market and actually care. Forget the social media buzz. The person who wrote the music for your favorite movie trailer probably made good money doing so (and probably has countless other credits), and most likely no one really knows who it is, besides others in the field and what not. That's how success is achieved and how income is earned, through making meaningful connections in the business and educating yourself about all possible income streams. When it comes to making a connection, generally it's quality over quantity. I know you said you want to make music that's not for a trailer or film, but really, that's the basic point of being a modern composer in the first place, to contribute your creativity to enhance the project. There's also the route of just releasing an album full of epic music. Generally, you need to build up your portfolio and prove that you have something worth buying first. The instrumental albums that really sell tons of copies usually come from people who have established careers as a media composer already.


Well said, Thank you.


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## MartinH. (Jan 3, 2019)

MoeWalsaad said:


> If so, then what business model is that?



The one you can't just replicate, just like you can't copy the success of the game "Minecraft".


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 3, 2019)

I edited the Thread message, to get a clearer picture about my topic.


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## AdamKmusic (Jan 3, 2019)

Chances are you'll make no money from epic music, especially not from youtube streams (unless you've got multiple videos hitting 1m+views. Most epic composers probably make their money from either niche album sales or trailer work.


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## ghostnote (Jan 3, 2019)

MoeWalsaad said:


> TSFH absolutely one, if they can afford recording a live orchestra, then the music should be paying for its self and highly enough to afford that, if not, doing the music wouldn't be wise to produce such costly music.
> If so, then what business model is that?


Trailermusic of course. I rather don't want to speak for someone else, but Nick and Thomas have thousands of trailer placements, not even talking about the uncountable amount of their music used on TV. They are also involved in producing top of the line (if not the best IMO) sample libraries.

I think what you are refering to is their popularity. The tale goes like this, ahem: They teamed up, sat down together and planed how to conquer Trailermusic, bringing something new to the table. Doing it right. The big plus here is that they were the first ones who gained huge popularity by doing something that was around for decades. So if you think "Epic Music" what's the first thing that pops into your mind? What about minimalism and pathos? Quirky or maybe comically weird adventure?


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 3, 2019)

ghostnote said:


> Trailermusic of course. I rather don't want to speak for someone else, but Nick and Thomas have thousands of trailer placements, not even talking about the uncountable amount of their music used on TV. They are also involved in producing top of the line (if not the best IMO) sample libraries.
> 
> I think what you are refering to is their popularity. The tale goes like this, ahem: They teamed up, sat down together and planed how to conquer Trailermusic, bringing something new to the table. Doing it right. The big plus here is that they were the first ones who gained huge popularity by doing something that was around for decades. So if you think "Epic Music" what's the first thing that pops into your mind? What about minimalism and pathos? Quirky or maybe comically weird adventure?



Nice point, Thanks, not to mention Thomas and Nick produced Eastwest Hollywood Samples which is probably the first tools of its kind in music industry for composers to make Epic music at home.

As for newer music genres, I don't see one can only be financially successful from making unique/New music alone, if you browse Soundcloud randomly, there are countless of great and unique artists who are coming out with new styles and sounds everyday, but not many people heard of them and I assume most of them are not doing well financially as well.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 3, 2019)

FWIW, people were doing Epic music at home using the orchestral card in a JV-1080 25 years ago.


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## blougui (Jan 3, 2019)

Ok, thanks for clarifying, I think I have a clearer view,now.
I have one "theory" about being successful in the way of being heard by a large scale of listeners.
Live,concert, spectacular events... You name it.

It seems music is not paying for itself as it once was. Sure, you've got some exceptions. You have to bring something new to the table and it won't be an album _per se_, me thinks.

You should try to reach out for @Carles on this forum and ask him about his experience as an romantic epic composer and producer.
https://soundcloud.com/carles-piles

(sometimes, I understand it's the publisher who pays for the orchestra, like Musicbed...)


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## gsilbers (Jan 3, 2019)

here are a few business ideas:

add vocals. make pop epic music songs in ABAB form. will relate more to audiences who might buy it. or even use them in trailers. Make a non vocal versions as well. 

anytime you complete an epic music track, cut (edit) a trailer music version out of it. most of the time is just different form and some sfx. THat way one version is for random youtube channels, the other to a trailer publisher. plus, wiht the vocal version youll get better chances of placements. 

create your own youtube epic music channel with your tracks and others. its like EDM DJs do. make podcasts and upload them on the ton of services out there. 

sell on pond5/audiojungle etc. 

submit to music libraries who would like a large catalog of stuff. 
maybe also create a non epic version. like a redux version with chamber orchestra or something more intimate that could be used for TV reality tv shows. 

i also think that epic music has a future. but i see it more like what trailers are doing. there is the normal epic orchestral music, there is rap with some epic strings, rock stuff etc. but all still sond like a trailer. not only on the song form but also the sound. having hiphop vocals on top of some rock stuff has been done in the 90s but then if you add epic percussion and romantic epic strings on the choruses or bridge/ending then thats what im talking about. its a mix of things. maybe no rap, but electronic stuff. maybe not rock but some sort of soft female vocal verse and chorus.


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## Loïc D (Jan 3, 2019)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> FWIW, people were doing Epic music at home using the orchestral card in a JV-1080 25 years ago.



Damn... Brings back memories... We're getting old, aren't we ?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 3, 2019)

Older, yes, but also better.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 3, 2019)

MoeWalsaad said:


> I indeed finish some music music and , release singles every while, I released a compilation album in 2015 and it was promoted in several ways, and some of my music was used to make views in Epic music channels and one of my tracked was featured (without my direct permission) in one highly watched epic music lists, It's not that I'm overthinking, I just feel that particular kind of music that I like to create is not paying for it self, and don't know how to channel this energy in a way that can bring an outcome back to me.



Forget your dream. Make what sells.


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 3, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> here are a few business ideas:
> 
> add vocals. make pop epic music songs in ABAB form. will relate more to audiences who might buy it. or even use them in trailers. Make a non vocal versions as well.
> 
> ...



Thank you a lot about sharing your tips, true, I do think people(average audience) do gravitate twards live vocals and lyrical music, is making versions (with and without vocals), and (trailer and non-trailer version) is a valid way to make returns from something you love doing.

Thank you for the other insights as well.


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 3, 2019)

You are in the dilemma of trying to marry your survival with artistic fulfillment. My advice is: Don't try to force it to come together. Keep them separate until it happens by itself.

The biggest problem us artists have is that when the universe is placing obstacles in our way (not enough appreciative audience, compensation, recognition, failing technology, PITA clients) we tend to take it personally. Why me? I have deserved xyz!
Accidents happen, young lives get cut short. We don't understand. Same way with artistic talent. Some of it that exists will never be heard or seen. 
Now, the kicker is this is this: The universe isn't personal. Life is sometimes unfair. It's not because you are not deserving. Your talent is not wasted even if you are the only one reveling in it. A bigger audience doesn't make you a better artist, your worth is not established by what other people think or by the things that happen to you or don't happen for you. It just is what it is. The only one who can give it meaning is you. The deeper you can get into realizing that fate isn't personal the more freedom you will be able to feel.

Hands on advice? Keep on doing what you have to do to pay the bills but carve out time for the things you love. Pursue them and let it unfold. Maybe the two things will meet at some time, maybe not. Keep showing up, but don't force it. Maybe it is a blessing if they don't meet. Maybe this way the art isn't getting spoiled by having to adapt it too much to make it commercially accessible?


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## Saxer (Jan 3, 2019)

Nobody is buying "just" music any more (except a few musicians like me). Today you have to bundle music with something else. Live act + souvenir CD, music for trailers, movies, commercial spots, games, music for dancers, for meditation, sport events, backings or arrangements for live singers, circus performers, travesty, atmospheric tracks for locations like spa, waiting zones, zoos, museums... there is an endless list. Get creative. Look for a demand for your music. If you want to get paid you need someone who is willing to pay. You have to find them.


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## andrelafosse (Jan 3, 2019)

Could the OP post at least one example of his music? I checked his forum profile, but couldn't find anything...


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 4, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> You are in the dilemma of trying to marry your survival with artistic fulfillment. My advice is: Don't try to force it to come together. Keep them separate until it happens by itself.
> 
> The biggest problem us artists have is that when the universe is placing obstacles in our way (not enough appreciative audience, compensation, recognition, failing technology, PITA clients) we tend to take it personally. Why me? I have deserved xyz!
> Accidents happen, young lives get cut short. We don't understand. Same way with artistic talent. Some of it that exists will never be heard or seen.
> ...



Thank you for the tip.
and I often say, the universe is too perfect to meet my expectation 
And I believe obstacles in life are lessons to show that we are not fit yet to meet the next mission's requirements, I have absolutely a lot to learn not just in music skills and business but in all aspects in life.


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 4, 2019)

Saxer said:


> Nobody is buying "just" music any more (except a few musicians like me). Today you have to bundle music with something else. Live act + souvenir CD, music for trailers, movies, commercial spots, games, music for dancers, for meditation, sport events, backings or arrangements for live singers, circus performers, travesty, atmospheric tracks for locations like spa, waiting zones, zoos, museums... there is an endless list. Get creative. Look for a demand for your music. If you want to get paid you need someone who is willing to pay. You have to find them.


I see, and I agree.
Thanks for sharing your insigt.


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## MoeWalsaad (Jan 4, 2019)

andrelafosse said:


> Could the OP post at least one example of his music? I checked his forum profile, but couldn't find anything...



My topic is about the "Epic Music Business Potential" and it's not about me, I'm sharing my musical dream to give an example about my topic, because I know many composers here are facing the same obstacles and I want to brainstorm the topic and share possibilities and solutions.
I'm a much average composer than I accidentally made it look like here 
However, I just updated the links in my profile info, you are welcome to check my works out!


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## andrelafosse (Jan 4, 2019)

MoeWalsaad said:


> I'm a much average composer than I accidentally made it look like here
> However, I just updated the links in my profile info, you are welcome to check my works out!



Hi Moe - first off, your stuff sounds great! Very professional, polished, super accomplished.

The reason I asked about your music was not to pass judgement. The reason for asking is this: if someone wants to be making any kind of livelihood from their work, then people need to be able to hear that work in some capacity! And a lot of artists don't have a body of work to present. 

But you clearly do, which is great! It doesn't solve the issues you're mentioning, but it does at least take care of the most important element.


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