# Anyone making a living out of Music Library work?



## gsilbers (Nov 11, 2014)

or its a major part of your income? or do you have a second job?


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## AC986 (Nov 11, 2014)

I go to auctions.


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## doctornine (Nov 11, 2014)

Yes. I make a living from library music.

But hey, I'm not a "real" composer


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 11, 2014)

Yes.


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## gsilbers (Nov 11, 2014)

thats cool. maybe ill break out and do this full time. its just so unpredictable.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 11, 2014)

It's a major part of my income - but not all of it.

And yes, you are right - VERY unpredictable.


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## JohnG (Nov 11, 2014)

I do some; it's very unpredictable, though it pays well when it's 'on.'

It's also more crowded all the time, so I would not put all my energy in that one place.


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## AC986 (Nov 11, 2014)

Actually that's a moot point John. I think you have to put your energies into one place if you're going to give it your best shot. Re: film music, I think most of the time these days you can take the last score you just heard on one film and stick it in the next film you're about to watch and you would probably not notice any difference to the overall ambience of the film.


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## Daryl (Nov 11, 2014)

I don't really find it unpredictable. Except when Sony forgets to pay the Royalties and then takes three months trying to figure out what they did wrong. :roll: 

However, if you want to be successful you have to treat it like a business and not just as a part time hobby when you have nothing better to do, IMO. You also have to be with a library that has good distribution.

D


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## AC986 (Nov 11, 2014)

Yes, good distributors ares key.


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## Mike Marino (Nov 11, 2014)

No, but working on it.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 11, 2014)

The more tracks you have out there with good libraries, the more predictable it is financially (but it can still catch you out and bite you on the bum if you aren't careful….).


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## Valérie_D (Nov 11, 2014)

I just started out, one album out and a couple of pieces in various exclusive libraries. 

I have no ideas what are the odds and what will happen but one thing I found interesting recently, was to pitch myself my music to production companies and act as a publisher myself, in respect of my contracts with my own publishers of course.

These cold calls, which for me are quite something since I'm really shy, have been most instructive and motivating : I am more in tune with what clients are looking for, and I have received several great appreciative comments. 

Focus the key for me, I hope to do this full time in the next few years.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 11, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> I go to auctions.



Car? New, or classic?



Daryl @ Wed Nov 12 said:


> Except when Sony forgets to pay the Royalties and then takes three months trying to figure out what they did wrong. :roll:



:roll: 



Valérie_D @ Wed Nov 12 said:


> ...one thing I found interesting recently, was to pitch myself my music to production companies and act as a publisher myself, in respect of my contracts with my own publishers of course.



Eh, if you are doing the exclusive lib thing, the lib IS the publisher. Or will be, when you send the tracks to them and sign a contract. If you cold call, and act more like a publisher than a writer looking for a publisher, doesn't that hurt your chances, rather than help?


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## AC986 (Nov 11, 2014)

Ha! No I just do what my wife tells me to do. She is shy and won't bid so I have to bid. I have tried to get her to bid because then I wouldn't have to go. Although I would still have to go because one of the places she goes to is very salty, the rest are very posh. I hate the posh ones, but the salty one is a lot fun, although quite dangerous at times.

My other part time job is agency photography.


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## Valérie_D (Nov 11, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> Eh, if you are doing the exclusive lib thing, the lib IS the publisher. Or will be, when you send the tracks to them and sign a contract. If you cold call, and act more like a publisher than a writer looking for a publisher, doesn't that hurt your chances, rather than help?



Well I am testing the water a little, but not in the same country as my publisher, but you might be right :D


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## JohnG (Nov 11, 2014)

Well, to clarify, I believe a few things based on my own unscientific experience:

1. Library music is certainly getting a lot of use (reality shows, "news" programmes hyped to be dramatic, other unscripted fare),

2. The demand has attracted many new entrants, which has put pressure on prices,

3. Some of the libraries that are new, or used to be rubbish, are much better than the "also-rans" of yesteryear.

So, competition is tougher and better, and prices are lower.

My own conclusion is that, though I've had a nice run with my efforts there, I try to maintain diversification just in case one of a number of industry issues gets a lot worse over time -- library license pricing, a change in viewer appetites and royalties being several that can always change. 

As I look down the road, I am disconcerted by the roiling going on with BMI and ASCAP and some of the larger catalogues. I doubt those developments portend good for the little fish composer and his hoped-for "long tail" of royalties from future uses.

I may be over-cautious, but I've watched TV fees drop by more than 75% for many shows (measured per-minute). In my brief time in the business I haven't seen any good changes.


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## gsilbers (Nov 11, 2014)

true. 
also the streaming issue were royalties are almost non existent even though so many poeple watch it.


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## JohnG (Nov 11, 2014)

Exactly.

At the risk of appearing pessimistic, I'm conscious that what's working now might not work so well later on.


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## Brobdingnagian (Nov 11, 2014)

So very true, JohnG.

...gather ye rosebuds, while ye may...

...and very wise to always keep an eye towards the business of tomorrow. Interesting times.

-B


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## Simplesly (Nov 11, 2014)

Brobdingnagian @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> ...and very wise to always keep an eye towards the business of tomorrow. Interesting times.
> 
> -B




Which is......? :|


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## rgames (Nov 11, 2014)

Simplesly @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> Brobdingnagian @ Tue Nov 11 said:
> 
> 
> > ...and very wise to always keep an eye towards the business of tomorrow. Interesting times.
> ...


My most lucrative deal this year was with an eCard company...!

And to the OP - there are lots of folks making a living from library work. One thing to think about is what you consider "a living." I think most anyone with a little bit of talent can make enough money from libraries to "live" on, especially if you're single, no kids, a renter, living in Europe/UK or low-cost area in the US. But I think there's a relatively small percentage of folks making enough to live the way most American adults with families/homes/etc. would want to. Of course, that's true of the music business in general, so libraries are no different in that regard.

rgames


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## Valérie_D (Nov 11, 2014)

For my situation (still renting), I would consider "making a living", to actually quit my dayjob, it would be an excellent start


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## gsilbers (Nov 11, 2014)

bummer. 
i make a chunk of change from library work. live in LA so its $$$. 
still thinking if id quit my day job i cold make more library music and other ghost writing gigs. maybe that ship sailed for me and i still will have to do both.


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## rgames (Nov 11, 2014)

gsilbers @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> still thinking if id quit my day job i cold make more library music and other ghost writing gigs.


I've gone down that route and came to a different conclusion. I've taken a month or more off at times didn't write nearly as much as I wanted to at the start - the creative well and inspiration dries up after a few weeks. Also, even if you go full time, you're probably still going to spend a significant amount of time networking to chase new gigs. That's true of any small business, of course.

So then the question becomes: which do you dislike more, your day job or networking in the music business? The total amount of time you spend writing music might actually be about the same whether you call yourself a full-time musician/composer or not.

For me it's certainly true: I write about as much music while keeping a day job as I do when I don't have one. If you look through history, I think you'll find that's true for most composers (and artists in general). So it really comes down to what you want to do with the time you're not writing music. Do you like to stay busy? Then keep a day job or use that time to network. Do you like to hang out for months at a time? Then make sure your royalty streams are good (and pray they last)...!

rgames


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## Daryl (Nov 11, 2014)

Whilst a lot of what some of the posters have said can be true, it's not necessarily the case. For example pretty much all of my income these days is from library music, and I've never done any networking. That's not my job. That's the Publisher's job. However, I do have some friends who are continually hassling sales people and trying to keep their music in the limelight all the time, and are very good at it, but for me life's too short. I don't want to work evenings, I don't want to work weekends, I like to have pretty much a 3 day week, I don't want to work to insane deadlines, I don't want to have to deal with idiotic directors and producers, and library allows me to do what I like doing, which is write music for media.

The other thing to remember is that it can also depend on what end of the industry you are writing for. If it's the "pile it high sell it cheap" end, it could be possible to hold down a day job and still write lots of tracks, but if you are at the end where you are producing orchestral music for a major Publisher (for example), what constitutes writing a track at the lower end of the market is considered only the first demo at the other end. From there you may have to sort out scores, music prep, deal with orchestral sessions, editing recordings, mixing, mastering, all of which takes time to prepare. In fact for my albums the writing is the quickest bit by far. It's all the rest that takes the most time, and unfortunately the composer can't abdicate all responsibility, even when a Publisher is working to a full recoupment model.

D


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## AC986 (Nov 12, 2014)

JohnG @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> At the risk of appearing pessimistic, I'm conscious that what's working now might not work so well later on.



Anything self-employed is risky. You could take that attitude over just about anything you ever do or want to do. It's not exactly a positive attitude and I think in this business you need to stay positive. 

If you take the negative attitude you would wind up doing nothing.


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## AC986 (Nov 12, 2014)

gsilbers @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> bummer.
> i make a chunk of change from library work. live in LA so its $$$.
> still thinking if id quit my day job i cold make more library music and other ghost writing gigs. maybe that ship sailed for me and i still will have to do both.



Is living in LA conducive to writing library music? Is it a necessary thing to live in LA to write library music?

Unless of course you like living in LA>but the fact that its $$$$ $$$$$ living in LA has no relevance to anything in my view.


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## Simplesly (Nov 12, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Nov 12 said:


> gsilbers @ Tue Nov 11 said:
> 
> 
> > bummer.
> ...



The only advantage I see is being able to network/pound the pavement at some of the many LA based trailer, library and publishing houses. Of course as I understand many won't even take unsolicited material but it's amazing the headway one can make over drinks. Is everything in LA done over drinks?


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## musicformedia (Nov 12, 2014)

I live in Ireland and write a lot of library music. It makes up the large majority of my income


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## gsilbers (Nov 12, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Nov 12 said:


> gsilbers @ Tue Nov 11 said:
> 
> 
> > bummer.
> ...



maybe. but ive found all my gigs because i live here. the owners of the libraries are my friends and they work with the post sups. so it helps. but yeah, i could move out and itll be about the same i guess. but i also like living in LA and have my friends here.


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## gsilbers (Nov 12, 2014)

rgames @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> gsilbers @ Tue Nov 11 said:
> 
> 
> > still thinking if id quit my day job i cold make more library music and other ghost writing gigs.
> ...


thats good info. thanks. i would be writing more for sure, but true , on weekends i find myself a lot of times not writing as much and just staring at a blank logic session. 
and socializing is not my thing. i guess i can get back into drinking =) 
thats good to know aout how others work/deal with this.


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## Tino Danielzik (Nov 12, 2014)

This is a very interesting topic, I study Science of Music and still look for a good way to get some extra money to finance the college. This way I could combine my studies with work. I have no experience writing for libraries though, what libraries do you guys recommend and do you have general tipps?

Regards,
Tino


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## JohnG (Nov 12, 2014)

Hi Tino,

There is at least one long thread about choosing a library, and there is more than one thread about various library issues -- creativity, marketing, and so on.

I suggest you look through those; there is good advice to be had there.


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## AC986 (Nov 16, 2014)

C M Dess @ Sat Nov 15 said:


> Last year I did a little better with placements. So I dropped my 2 day jobs at golf courses and am giving it another shot. I will hang in there as long as I can. :D



What were you doing at the golf courses?


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## soniklab (Nov 16, 2014)

The problem with music libraries is that it is becoming over crowded. Now you have the likes of Quincy Jones and Hans Zimmer writing for music libraries. The music libraries themselves are doing tie up with majors because as the traditional revenue streams for "artists" - albums/singles etc dwindles everyone is looking for revenue streams - and production music is one of the few that is thriving. Also where as 5 years ago it was media composers who were composing for them now the libraries are looking for artists..so if they want a r n b track they will go to Rhianna's producers etc and of course we would all like to think it's the music that counts but alas….after all a good production music lib track will usually be one that can have a VO sitting on top of it.

THere are no boundaries now it seems (apart from Film/hi end TV drama) it's all just music and thrown in to the pot. The other thing to bear in mind is that production levels are rising all the time. We always try to use real musicians or at least real strings if budget/time allows. 

You need volume of tracks out there but you need to be with the top libraries. After all they are just selling teams. If they don't have the distribution or contacts it is irrelevant how good you music is or how many music libraries you are with.

Another composer said to me recently but there will be always be a space for bedroom producers..there will, but its unlikely they will be earning any money writing for production music libraries if it caries on going the way it is.


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## soniklab (Nov 16, 2014)

BTW I also heard it is the 3rd biggest desired job in the US!!!!! not sure if that is true or not but….bloody hell!!! _-)


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 16, 2014)

Only third? What were first and second?

EDIT: Still finding it hard to imagine two careers more appealing than the high profile international jet setting life of plenty that is the daily delight of the library music composer.


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2014)

You left out the never-ending orgiastic parties and more or less permanent champagne baths.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 16, 2014)

Ah yes I forgot those.

(Probably as a result of spending the whole morning vacuuming the house, cleaning out the cat litter tray, making sure the bucket was in the right place beneath the leaky roof, considering how long the car's corroding suspension would last, and wondering what the jackdaws were up to in the hole in our chimney).


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2014)

Quite understandable. Those tasks can extinguish the vivid memory of a full body massage from Candy and Jessica.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 16, 2014)

It scares me how much people know about my life even though I'm not on Facebook or Twitter.


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## AC986 (Nov 16, 2014)

soniklab @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> We always try to use real musicians or at least real strings if budget/time allows.



When you say 'we always try and use real musicians', do you own a music publishing library yourself?


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## Daryl (Nov 16, 2014)

soniklab @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> BTW I also heard it is the 3rd biggest desired job in the US!!!!! not sure if that is true or not but….bloody hell!!! _-)


Either that's not true, or the majority of Americans don't actually want a job. For a start the majority of people wouldn't even know that music libraries exist. :lol: 

D


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## soniklab (Nov 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> soniklab @ Sun Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > We always try to use real musicians or at least real strings if budget/time allows.
> ...



No, I'm just thinking of the libs i write for and knowing other composers who write for libraries. Al the ones I know use real musicians budget/time allowing.


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## soniklab (Nov 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> soniklab @ Sun Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW I also heard it is the 3rd biggest desired job in the US!!!!! not sure if that is true or not but….bloody hell!!! _-)
> ...



:lol: yes, i was dubious myself when i heard it..perhpas thinking about it some more it was the third biggest growth job area…it is sunday and I'm trying to score a short film so be gentle with me!! :wink: o-[][]-o


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## AC986 (Nov 16, 2014)

soniklab @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> adriancook @ Sun Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > soniklab @ Sun Nov 16 said:
> ...



I completely understand what you mean and it does happen, but there are quite a few times, certainly more and more, where it isn't necessary, and in fact can be a waste of time based on a number of factors. Not least of all, cost.

I printed aout a score a few times lets say, and in the end they preferred the sampled/hardware/etc to real players. That was time I could never recover.


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## soniklab (Nov 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> soniklab @ Sun Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Sun Nov 16 said:
> ...



Interesting. I find the complete opposite! lol 

I was at a conference couple of weeks ago with EMI UK/Universal/Extreme and they were all singing the virtues of real musicians/instruments where possible and suitable of course. I'm thinking of strings/brass/orchestra really..

Like I said that is just my experience. My last production music lib was string quartet and samples, just down to budget/time and I have to say I always prefer real strings to samples…that said I love Mural by Spitfire!!  sounds amazing. 

Whatever works for you and your clients I say, there are no rights or wrongs!


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 16, 2014)

@soniklab: I have worked with two of the three libraries you have mentioned and can say that they would not be disappointed if your orchestral samples programming was strong enough that they didn't feel the need to record it for real.


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## soniklab (Nov 16, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> @soniklab: I have worked with two of the three libraries you have mentioned and can say that they would not be disappointed if your orchestral samples programming was strong enough that they didn't feel the need to record it for real.



Stephen, thats good to hear! All I'm saying is what they said a couple of weeks ago. It was an open session so perhaps they were just trying to outdo each other! I'm glad your experience proves different.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 16, 2014)

I just bring it up because there are a lot of people looking with interest at the library music profession at the moment. I wouldn't want anyone new to the library business to feel downhearted because they do not have access to, or the ability to record, live orchestral instrumentalists. It is not a barrier to entry.

Quite the opposite is true I would say. If you have a good set of samples and programming skills, to the extent that you can produce credible and relevant orchestral music using samples, you are very attractive to library companies. You are saving them large sums of money because they don't need to record it for real.

Anyone can have a go


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## Waywyn (Nov 16, 2014)

gsilbers @ Tue Nov 11 said:


> or its a major part of your income? or do you have a second job?



making 75% of my living with lib music so far. Other comes from direct jobs like game music, ads, arranging etc.


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## mark812 (Nov 16, 2014)

Just curious, guys, how much do you earn from libraries on average, monthly?


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 16, 2014)

mark812 @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> Just curious, guys, how much do you earn from libraries on average, monthly?



We make enough to keep a roof over our heads; put food in our bellies; run a car; support two sample library buying habits, heat the house in winter; and feed the cat.

So, enough to be happy (particularly the cat who, I might add, does none of the composing, can't mix OR master, does no networking whatsoever, is poor at troubleshooting computer issues, and who is currently as I type this performing the vital role of sleeping in her basket).


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## Cinesamples (Nov 16, 2014)

Passive income is how you succeed in the music business. Always have a mind for the backend on projects. The challenge is that sometimes you just want the paycheck NOW. Don't get fooled by someone dangling a carrot at you saying something like "hey, I'll pay you 500 per track now (but I own everything)".

The entrepreneur in this scenario is not at fault making that offer to you, (s)he is being smart... but you should be smarter...

There are times where you may want a larger upfront, but the most successful musicians/entrepeneurs always consider backend over frontend. The long-game always wins in the end...

Many times there is no backend on a project - so be sure to charge a decent front end. Especially on games. For games, if you are working on a small project with limited budget, at least put something in your contract that says you own 100% of the music. If you can't own 100% of your music, then charge a premium for a work-for-hire buyout. If they can't offer either one, then decide if it is worth the relationship (perhaps the folks have enormous potential for future work). Otherwise, if it seems like it will just be a war zone type project with little chance of future work, turn it down.

Okay, random thoughts...

MP


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## AC986 (Nov 16, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> I just bring it up because there are a lot of people looking with interest at the library music profession at the moment. I wouldn't want anyone new to the library business to feel downhearted because they do not have access to, or the ability to record, live orchestral instrumentalists. It is not a barrier to entry.
> 
> Quite the opposite is true I would say. If you have a good set of samples and programming skills, to the extent that you can produce credible and relevant orchestral music using samples, you are very attractive to library companies. You are saving them large sums of money because they don't need to record it for real.
> 
> Anyone can have a go



Good points Stephen!

One thing that never gets mentioned re: library work is the (dreaded) co-write. :lol: 

There's a lot of co-writing going on out there. I have just one co write and I did that from a distance, which was probably a good thing or it could have otherwise resulted in either death, GBH, madness, sudden drug addiction or a combination of all.

Anyone do co writes? How do you find it? I'm a bit of a loner. I do have one idea for a track that I will do with one the forum members here and he is 6000 miles away, so that should be good. 

I am doing 4 or 5 tracks at the moment on a co write that I couldn't refuse, but just this evening if you saw the instructions I get, you would go nuts in short order. :lol:


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## Valérie_D (Nov 16, 2014)

The last instruction I got was to produce a track which was feminine and square(?), strong, aquatic yet earthy, creepy-innocent-depressing and reminiscent of joy.

-Wait, what?!


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 16, 2014)

Shouty choir and big drums should do it.


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## AC986 (Nov 16, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> The last instruction I got was to produce a track which was feminine and square(?), strong, aquatic yet earthy, creepy-innocent-depressing and reminiscent of joy.
> 
> -Wait, what?!



Feminine and aquatic. :| 


Let's not go there.


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## rJames (Nov 16, 2014)

Valérie_D @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> The last instruction I got was to produce a track which was feminine and square(?), strong, aquatic yet earthy, creepy-innocent-depressing and reminiscent of joy.
> 
> -Wait, what?!



Ooooo. Great idea for a track!


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## rgames (Nov 16, 2014)

CineSamples @ Sun Nov 16 said:


> Passive income is how you succeed in the music business.


Will that continue to be true, though? I think we're at a point in time where that common wisdom might not be so wise.

I'm not sure that someone starting in the music business today should place much emphasis on back end because broadcast/cable/radio will be mostly gone in 20 years - everything is going to streaming. And streaming royalties are not, at present, worth fighting for.

When broadcast/cable is replaced by streaming (probably sooner rather than later) and the royalty structure doesn't change then it sure seems to me that up-front payment is the better bet.

Even if traditional broadcast/cable/radio still has a significant presence in 20 years the writing is on the wall with regard to the PROs: direct licensing is becoming increasingly easy and more lucrative and the easiest way to do that is to just charge a one-time, up-front license fee. No PRO necessary - the publisher will just assume that role just as it currently does for the use fee.

So, however you paint the picture, it seems to me that up-front payment is the way of the future. Just like it always has been for pretty much everything else other than music...!

rgames


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