# Need Help Choosing Microphone Preamp for Vocal Dynamic Mic(s)



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

Somewhat conversant with amp/preamp specs, but in small town and zero ability to listen or compare. Finding it difficult to sort short list options .... so asking for help from vocalists, sound engineers / technicians. Currently with iffy setup: Saffire Pro14 and Lindell Audio 6X-500 _VST_ Preamp from Plugin Alliance. Win10 Pro / Reaper DAW.

Short list contains: Scarlett SOLO 3rd Gen, Clarett 2Pre USB, Focusrite ISA ONE (eBay). Do _NOT_ need Audio I/F or Headphone Amp !!

These keep cost range < $450. but not holding this as hard limit. Concerned with normal $$$ vs diminishing returns, and truly need some capable advice. 

One key point .... this is serious home studio, but nothing commercial or true Pro. Mainly need to have acceptable equipment for visiting, talented, Vocalists, mainly female, sitting in with small gatherings of musicians for informal sessions. No need to 'impress', but never want to disappoint Vocalists with clearly deficient tools.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jun 10, 2020)

The Apogee Element 24 has really nice, non-mojo miic presents. If you listen to my album "Honestly", all my vocals were recorded through them.


----------



## method1 (Jun 10, 2020)

Some of the options you listed are audio interfaces, are you looking for a new interface or a standalone pre, or both? Another much cheaper option is a cloudlifter, will give you some extra gain so you don't have to crank the pre so much on the saffire.


----------



## Stringtree (Jun 10, 2020)

Hey sostenuto,

Of the ones you have on your shortlist, I'd personally go for the ISA. What a great piece of gear. I have the ISA Two, and I love it to death. For dynamic mics it gives you loading options, and sounds great. 

If you ever have a guitarist or bassist, plugging directly in is a seriously beautiful option. The high input impedance won't load pickups. 

Great pre, great DI, and used? Sounds like what I would do.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

Yes .... sole choice of Clarett 2Pre USB is cost point and their emphasis on new Mic Pre in Clarett series.
Limited consideration of Cloudlifter, and need to pay more attention. $149. is very affordable and strong positive comments ! 
Recent Microphone Thread triggered experiments with Lindell 6X-500 and pleased to have some positive results. That Thread also caused more focus on Preamp vs tons of better Mics. 

THX


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> Hey sostenuto,
> 
> Of the ones you have on your shortlist, I'd personally go for the ISA. What a great piece of gear. I have the ISA Two, and I love it to death. For dynamic mics it gives you loading options, and sounds great.
> 
> ...



Good to read, and seems very capable solution. Sure; most frequent instrumentalists are guitarists, few bassists, a cool flutist. BTW ... genres are not extreme ... Pop, Jazz, Bossa, Rock, xxx, flexible.
I am pianist, keyboardist with massive Reaper - VSTi /VST plugin set to augment live talent.


----------



## wst3 (Jun 10, 2020)

If we are talking about a single microphone preamplifier I'd recommend a couple that should fall into your price range (some are, sadly, two channel):
Warm Audio WA12 MKII
Cloud Audio - pretty much any of their devices, assuming your interface will handle the levels. Royer makes a similar model.
Presonus Studio Channel - remarkable value, includes a decent EQ and a very good compressor.
Fredenstein VAS, single channel, towards the upper end of your budget, but wow does it sound good, and it works well with dynamic microphones.
If you can stretch the budget just a little the Grace Design M-101 is worth a look too. One of my favorites under $1K, the other being the Millennia HV-35P. I use the two channel version (HV-32P) as my main preamplifier, so yeah, I'm biased.


----------



## Stringtree (Jun 10, 2020)

The mic and preamp rabbit hole goes really deep. After so much reading and listening, I wanted a combination I could hear "doing something" rather than producing clean gain. For certain kinds of music, great. So I found myself with Liquid Channel, Portico, ISA, software emulations. 

The one with crunch and personality I found was the TG-2 500. A little sizzle. Mojo. Then again, I didn't have a zillion bucks to spend experimenting. No legitimate tube pres, no boutique stuff. 

Lots of preamps can do gorgeous clean gain. But rock, pop, and jazz can benefit from a little dirt on the vocals. The ISA has some possibilities because of the dynamism of the transformer in the signal path and the ability to present some variation in what the microphone sees looking into the input. This turns one microphone into three when using dynamic mics.


----------



## gsilbers (Jun 10, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> Somewhat conversant with amp/preamp specs, but in small town and zero ability to listen or compare. Finding it difficult to sort short list options .... so asking for help from vocalists, sound engineers / technicians. Currently with iffy setup: Saffire Pro14 and Lindell Audio 6X-500 _VST_ Preamp from Plugin Alliance. Win10 Pro / Reaper DAW.
> 
> Short list contains: Scarlett SOLO 3rd Gen, Clarett 2Pre USB, Focusrite ISA ONE (eBay). Do _NOT_ need Audio I/F or Headphone Amp !!
> 
> ...



I think these audio interfaces have come a long way in the past decade.

back then only a few had good preamps and converters. Now even behringer has catch up to uad and rme.
althogh the stigma is very hard to remove. I compared my new uphoria to me rme800 and couldn’t tell a difference. The rme does have like 36 more of everything so that ads a lot to the price tag. Dsp even more.

So for clean... what you mic is what you get then the focurite, rmeX apogee, behringer, ssl, presonus audient will be about the same in the audio interface market.

there has been this huge mysticism about preamps and that they matter soooo much when in fact it barely does a difference compared to a good room, performance and mic.

the only thing that might be different imo is having a “gain” and volume design preamp. That’s what can bring the elusive “mojo”. That’s the neve type design and where components matter more. Which sadly brings a the price higher.

For this type of design then I’d say the golden age preamps, warm audio and black lion. These are pretty cool.

but if you are just doing it a little more informal and going to musicians houses thenthese audio interfaces is not only good enough but much easier to set up and lower the amount of setup time that cuts into inspiration.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The Apogee Element 24 has really nice, non-mojo miic presents. If you listen to my album "Honestly", all my vocals were recorded through them.



Will check carefully, Solid company, yet concerned if Thunderbolt-only. THX!


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> I think these audio interfaces have come a long way in the past decade.
> 
> back then only a few had good preamps and converters. Now even behringer has catch up to uad and rme.
> althogh the stigma is very hard to remove. I compared my new uphoria to me rme800 and couldn’t tell a difference. The rme does have like 36 more of everything so that ads a lot to the price tag. Dsp even more.
> ...



Have been checking Warm Audio options for sure. Black Lion was unknown to me, but see one B173 to check out.


----------



## Stringtree (Jun 10, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> I think these audio interfaces have come a long way in the past decade.
> 
> there has been this huge mysticism about preamps and that they matter soooo much when in fact it barely does a difference compared to a good room, performance and mic.
> 
> the only thing that might be different imo is having a “gain” and volume design preamp. That’s what can bring the elusive “mojo”. That’s the neve type design and where components matter more. Which sadly brings a the price higher.



That is a very good way of explaining it. Deliberately overdriving the input stage with one knob and turning down the overall volume on the output has some creative possibilities. Some circuitry reacts elegantly to this treatment. 

My impressions are humble also. One thing I would do differently is buy used when trying the better gear. Depreciation is awful on this stuff!


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

wst3 said:


> If we are talking about a single microphone preamplifier I'd recommend a couple that should fall into your price range (some are, sadly, two channel):
> Warm Audio WA12 MKII
> Cloud Audio - pretty much any of their devices, assuming your interface will handle the levels. Royer makes a similar model.
> Presonus Studio Channel - remarkable value, includes a decent EQ and a very good compressor.
> ...



Very attractive list given intensive searching over recent weeks !! Your Millenia HV-35P reference has me looking harder there. Some decent offerings out there now. Warm Audio WA12 is another short-list choice and gets new with warranty vs pre-owned. 
Appreciate your info as it definitely reshapes my comfort zone with existing short-list. THX !


----------



## gsilbers (Jun 10, 2020)

Some of the comparisons the wavs can be downloaded... but itll be about the same. 

and ... close your eyes when listneing the demos. and not think about brands.


----------



## Rory (Jun 10, 2020)

I would suggest that you have a look at the Sound Devices MixPre-3, version 1. Second-hand, it fits within your budget. It can be used both as a compact standalone recorder and as an audio interface. It offers five tracks consisting of three inputs, including three XLR ports, and a stereo mix. There's a special musician's version that sold for US$50 less than the standard version, which had features that most musicians don't need.

Recently, Sound Devices came out with version 2. It has new features, such as integral timecode and 32-bit recording that makes clipping ancient history, that you probably don't require. Price is $680, but that includes a hike a couple of months ago of $30. Version 1 sold for $650. Version 1 Musician sold for $600. I'm quite sure that you can buy one of these second-hand within budget or very close to it.

There are a lot of videos on YouTube about the MixPre. I would suggest that you look at Curtis Judd's in particular. Sound Devices has sold a lot of these, and it should not be hard to find one second-hand.

Based in Wisconsin, Sound Devices also has excellent customer support.


EDIT: Here's Judd's video on the difference between the MixPre-3 standard and the MixPre-3M:


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> Some of the comparisons the wavs can be downloaded... but itll be about the same.
> 
> and ... close your eyes when listneing the demos. and not think about brands.




THX for these ! Actually checked SoS Shootout earlier, and this also defines my need for help here .. 
Well-seasoned ears, _not damaged by excess input , _and just added Schiit Audio headphone amp equip to help as much as possible. Struggled to detect notable differences throughout the total shootout audio clips. 

Sooooo ..... this has resulted in appeals for advice here, since I will likely not perceive important differences with these Mic Preamps .... and cannot do any A/B comparisons. 
Lots of fine help in this Thread so far and some cool options now.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

Rory said:


> I would suggest that you have a look at the Sound Devices MixPre-3, version 1 ******************
> 
> Recently, Sound Devices came out with version 2. ************
> 
> ...




THX for this info. Quite different solution that I need to review carefully.


----------



## Rory (Jun 10, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> THX for this info. Quite different solution that I need to review carefully.



Sound Devices makes field recorders that are used on a high percentage of feature films and that cost thousands of dollars. In 2017/18, it introduced the MixPre series, which made the company's gear available to a much wider audience. I have one of Sound Devices's high-end field recorders, and the MixPre series sacrifices neither sound quality nor customer service.

Here's a MixPre-3 in use. It's the box mounted between the top of the monopod and the stereo bar. The stereo bar is a Grace Design Space Bar. The two mikes are Schoeps CMC6 MK2 omnidirectionals with Cinela Leo windscreens, AB spaced stereo configuration.







Shortly after that photo was made, I decided to purchase a MixPre-6 ii. I'm now using the MixPre-3 as an audio interface. The MixPre-6, which differs in number of inputs/outputs, was used in the following photo to record AB spaced stereo and ORTF stereo at the same time. The mikes are the same two Schoeps omnidirectional mikes above, plus two Schoeps's CMC6 MK41 supercardiods for ORTF. To do this, I needed four XLR inputs, which the MixPre-6 has. The recorder is in the blue bag. As you can see, it has four fader knobs (two are lit up in green) rather than the MixPre-3's three.







I could have used any recorder I wanted to record with this $8400 Neumann KU100 binaural microphone last week. I was happy to stick with the MixPre, which is compact, light and fully up to the task.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 10, 2020)

Impressive gear and setup ! Field recording has been of interest for some time. Now working through various Sound Device options, in context with my home studio need as well. THX!


----------



## Rory (Jun 10, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> Impressive gear and setup ! Field recording has been of interest for some time. Now working through various Sound Device options, in context with my home studio need as well. THX!



Happy to try to answer any questions you have about Sound Devices or the MixPre via pm.

I should add that I don’t own that Neumann mike, as much as I wish I did


----------



## wst3 (Jun 11, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> Very attractive list given intensive searching over recent weeks !! Your Millenia HV-35P reference has me looking harder there. Some decent offerings out there now. Warm Audio WA12 is another short-list choice and gets new with warranty vs pre-owned.
> Appreciate your info as it definitely reshapes my comfort zone with existing short-list. THX !


Just a little more, hopefully helpful, info...

If I had all the money in the world my first choice for a microphone preamplifier would be the John Hardy M-1. It can sound remarkably neutral, or it can have a vibe that I'd describe as similar to API or maybe MCI. It can also approximate an older Neve 1073 or Trident 80 series, but I would not choose it if that were my goal.

The Great River MP2 would be on the list too, it sounds a lot like the Hardy, and it is more affordable. Again when driven it leans more towards the American vibe - which is not a bad thing.

And yet when it came time to invest in a really great microphone preamplifier I went with the Millennia Media HV-3C. Why? 

While it can show some attitude, it is (to my ears) even more neutral than either of the other two, and that's what I decided was the priority.

It was also closer to fitting my budget, and I finally decided I need to make the leap. That, and I had still not finished any of my project preamplifiers, and it was more expedient to buy than fix.

I should acknowledge that I "grew up" using API and MCI consoles, and still own a Tangent 3216, so my tastes clearly run towards that sound.

I should also acknowledge that I know the engineers behind all three companies. They are all freakishly smart. And if one believes the legends, all three started out to build a preamplifier they could afford. I can't prove that last part<G>. It felt a little strange to finally pick one over the others.

I would not hesitate to use any of the preamplifiers I listed earlier. Having lived with the Millennia Media preamplifier for a couple years now I have zero regrets, it is a great sounding, and very flexible preamplifier. I use it with dynamic, condenser, and ribbon (technically also dynamic) microphones and it works well with all of them.

One of the bigger "features" of a really good microphone preamplifier is that you can start to hear subtle (and obvious) differences between microphones.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 11, 2020)

wst3 said:


> Just a little more, hopefully helpful, info...
> 
> If I had all the money in the world my first choice for a microphone preamplifier would be the John Hardy M-1. It can sound remarkably neutral, or it can have a vibe that I'd describe as similar to API or maybe MCI. It can also approximate an older Neve 1073 or Trident 80 series, but I would not choose it if that were my goal.
> 
> ...



Marvelous comments, as I (_again_) become immersed deeply in an unfamiliar topic !!

"....... start to hear subtle (and obvious) differences between microphones." __ Precisely ! 

There are some John Hardy M-1 units out there and single channel is not so far from Millenia. 

THX & Regards


----------

