# Which keyboard do you recommend?



## Bullseye (Sep 27, 2018)

I ask for advice on buying a keyboard to use as a Master Keyboard to compose music with virtual instruments.
I have a Casio CDP-100 and after many years of use I would like to change it for something better.
I'm looking for a keyboard that is:
- excellent for playing piano parts
- reactive to play fast repetitions
- respond well to velocity
- with or without midi controls (because I already have an external midi controller)

I found good reviews of the following models:
Doepfer PK88 (TP40GH)
StudioLogic SL88 Grand (TP40 Wood)
StudioLogic SL88 Studio (TP100)
StudioLogic SL990 Pro (TP40GH)
Roland A88 (Ivory Feel-G)
Roland FP-30 (PHA-4)
Kawai ES-110 (RH Compact)
Casio Privia PX-160 (Tri-Sensor)

I know there are differences in price but I would like to find the best compromise because I do not know if it is worth spending a lot of money to buy a Doepfer...

Thanks


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 27, 2018)

I think it really comes down to what YOU think works best, those are all pretty good choices. I personally have an NI S88 as my main controller (which I love), and a Nektar Impact LX88+; I use the Nektar for playing fast repetitions, etc, because I find weighted keys too slow and requires more of an effort to be precise.

If you're able to try out a ton of controllers at a local music store, that's the way to go.


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## Bullseye (Sep 28, 2018)

Thanks Wolfie2112 for the answer,
in fact, with two keyboards you can cover every need but I would like to find a unique solution.
Unfortunately I did not find all the keyboards to try...so an advice based on your personal experiences would help me in the choice.

From what I read:
- Doepfer does not send velocity well
- Studio Logic SL990 is very old and is not accurate with midi
- Kawai ES-110 has a low quality control and some keys can have spaces
- StudioLogic SL88 Grand is more suitable for piano use and not for fast repetitions
- Roland A88 has an old technology compared to RP-30

Between Roland FP-30 or the Studio Logic SL88 Studio which do you recommend?


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## SchnookyPants (Sep 28, 2018)

I believe the Roland A88 is no longer available.

What about the Kawai VPC1?


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## Bill the Lesser (Sep 28, 2018)

I had a beat up Doepfer that had a true piano feel that made it problematic to use with non percusive instruments like velocity responsive strings. I finally found happiness with a synth feel NI S61, which is heavy-ish but non weighted (note the NI S88 is fully weighted and great for piano).

I also use an LX88+ which is a little slower but still faster than any weighted keyboard I have tried, that would be my single keyboard pick since I play piano well only in my dreams. The LX is semi-weighted just enough to help me find the contact point without rippling piano chords. It's also fairly arthritis friendly, hope that doesn't matter for you. Durability is fairly good and overall value for the price is high.

A salesman told me people come in complaining about their present keyboard, but then wind up buying something that feels almost identical. He said one of the biggest causes of exchanges is people going from synth feel to fully weighted and regretting it.

The "doesn't go well with midi velocity" complaint is the price being fully weighted.

PS Check resale prices on your pick, that can tell you something about its durability and mojo.


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## holywilly (Sep 29, 2018)

Anyone tried Arturia Keylab 88? I’m also in the market for the new keyboard controller.


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## Michelob (Sep 29, 2018)

StudioLogic SL88 Grand and 990.

SL990 has an earth issue wich makes the modwheel and the pitchwheel sending false midi signals. I don't care because I'm using a controller for CCs. Keyboard is really great. Yes, maybe a bit better for piano play than B3 glissandi, but in my use, that's ok.

SL88 is huge. Sensual encoding with the wooden keybed. Really great.

AFAIK, SL88 has the same FATAR keybed as Doepfer MK4, for half the price (TP40Wood).

You won't have that "stage-looking" case, but here also, I don't care since I dismantled them to better integrate them into a piece of furniture I made.


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## DS_Joost (Sep 29, 2018)

Bullseye said:


> Thanks Wolfie2112 for the answer,
> in fact, with two keyboards you can cover every need but I would like to find a unique solution.
> Unfortunately I did not find all the keyboards to try...so an advice based on your personal experiences would help me in the choice.
> 
> ...



From what you read I can tell you that the comment about the Studiologic SL990 is bullshit. I have a 880 (barely any difference if at all) and it's the most fantastic keyboard I've ever had and would never trade it for something else. Ever. It's not the most fantastically build keyboard ever but sometimes I have a feeling that people complaining about the build quality play in their parts with a jackhammer. I've had it for four years now, bought it secondhand, and no complaints at all. The keybed is to die for, as is the velocity response. I've tried propably every single modern 88 there is and none come close, no matter how old this model is.

I'm also sure that if Doepfers didn't send the right velocity it wouldn't be used by professionals like Zimmer and Junkie and Jablonsky and Christian Henson. So that is a very bold claim. I mean, I don't think these people would mind the money to buy a new one if their keyboard wasn't good.


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## Michelob (Sep 29, 2018)

Arturia Keylab is Fatar TP100, which is a bit lighter, wich means "less pianistic" and more "fast keyboard player".


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## DS_Joost (Sep 29, 2018)

Michelob said:


> StudioLogic SL88 Grand and 990.
> 
> SL990 has an earth issue wich makes the modwheel and the pitchwheel sending false midi signals. I don't care because I'm using a controller for CCs. Keyboard is really great. Yes, maybe a bit better for piano play than B3 glissandi, but in my use, that's ok.
> 
> ...



The earth issue I've had. Once. For a week or so. Just filtered out the control messages, which didn't matter because I too use a controller. But it disappeared, and it never came back. I have no idea why it happened and frankly, since I don't have that problem anymore I don't care.


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## Bullseye (Sep 29, 2018)

The Kawai VPC1 is great for piano use but it costs a lot...

The NI S88 has lots of midi controls that I would not use because I already have an external controller but I have seen many composers use the NI S88 also Junkie XL (years ago he used the Doepfer LMK4+)

Is the SL990 Pro (TP40GH) a good buy compared to SL88 Studio (TP100) or Roland FP-30 (PHA-4)? (without considering the midi controller)


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## Michelob (Sep 29, 2018)

Bullseye said:


> Is the SL990 Pro (TP40GH) a good buy compared to SL88 Studio (TP100)



SL990 Pro and XP aren't built anymore. Their equivalent is SL88 Grand (wit the best Fatar you could ever find : TP40Wood).

But even though SL88 Studio (TP100) feels a bit cheap, it's a really good buy for anyone who's on a budget. We're talking here of a third (or even quarter) the price of a Doepfer MK4+, for a really decent 88 keybed.


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## danbo (Sep 29, 2018)

I have an older Doepfer PK88 and newer LMK4+. The best in my opinion, it's certainly not a 'true piano' action, but it's quite good, the packaging is industrial strength, small and doesn't useless have bells and whistles. The PK88 is over 10 years old now, been used daily is and going strong, and since it's a master keyboard doesn't have any out of date electronics or features. I got the LMK4+ as an upgrade for a second music desk. The touch is better and more sensitive (Fatar upgraded), and I wanted the MIDI features (split keyboard and such).

I have no problem playing any instrument in the orchestra with it. The nicest thing is these are just the right size to build a music desk around them, I've posted pictures around here.


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## Bullseye (Sep 29, 2018)

Exactly, the SL990 is out of production but I could find it used at a good price, if it is the equivalent of the SL88 Grand would be a good buy?

I thought the PK88 was identical to LMK4 + without controller...

Unfortunately, the DoPfer LMK4 + is out of budget, so between PK88 and SL88 Grand which would be more suitable? (maybe the SL88 Grand because more recent than PK88?)

Does anyone know or have tried the Roland FP-30?


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 29, 2018)

I use the Arturia Keylab 88. Fully weighted, even to the point of feeling 'heavy' initially, but I got used to it very quickly. Highly recommended!


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## onebitboy (Sep 29, 2018)

Bullseye said:


> - Kawai ES-110 has a low quality control and some keys can have spaces


The key spacing is purely an aesthetic imperfection though. It doesn't influence the playability at all.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Sep 29, 2018)

My core thought is here. Piano-like actions start at about $2k and north of 40lbs. If you really want excellent piano action: Kawai MP11, Yamaha CP4, Nord Piano 4, Roland RD-2000. Lots of things are weighted. Few are attempting to create a finger/sound connection familiar to a pianist. That is a MUCH smaller list of boards.


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## danbo (Sep 29, 2018)

Bullseye said:


> I thought the PK88 was identical to LMK4 + without controller...



Yes AFAIK the PK88 has the same action as the LM4K with simpler electronics, no controls (e.g. mod wheel) and simpler electronics. It probably doesn't have aftertouch either. What I was saying is that Doepfer updated the Fater action they used in 2008 and my two keyboards bridge that. The newer action is definitely better. 



> Unfortunately, the DoPfer LMK4 + is out of budget, so between PK88 and SL88 Grand which would be more suitable? (maybe the SL88 Grand because more recent than PK88?)



SL88 vs PK88 - they have different Fatar actions, notably SL88 having wood keys. Personally I'd stick with regular plastic action in this case as I don't see the wood materially making that action feel better, and I'm not fond of the casing and electronics.



Nathanael Iversen said:


> My core thought is here. Piano-like actions start at about $2k and north of 40lbs. If you really want excellent piano action: Kawai MP11, Yamaha CP4, Nord Piano 4, Roland RD-2000. Lots of things are weighted. Few are attempting to create a finger/sound connection familiar to a pianist. That is a MUCH smaller list of boards.



I have a 6,4" bought new Walter grand, a Yamaha concert action I got from my piano tech I converted to MIDI, and the two Doepfer keyboards. I've also tried a lot of the various 'piano like' actions (I play at RCM Level 9 FWIW). IMO the differences between the piano like MIDI keyboard actions isn't much, just get whatever keyboard works for you aesthetically and feature wise. But I wouldn't get anything less than a Fatar action. Even actual grand actions are different, e.g. my 6"4' has a world class Renner action, but being shorter than a concert grand (it being a 'home concert' grand size) the action is shorter. In terms of the 'real thing' a concert grand (about 9') is it, going down to about a 5'ish grand, and upright actions not being terribly different (and oftentimes worse) than a MIDI action.

If I was really going for reality in a non piano action package (meaning not doing what I did with my Yamaha action) I'd probably get a Casio Celviano GP500 (yes Casio). They did it in collaboration with Bechstein. Haven't tried it but probably the best you can get, looks like it's just missing escapement, but you get inertial hammer weights which is very noticeable.

At any rate pianists need to adapt to different actions.


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## al_net77 (Sep 29, 2018)

danbo said:


> If I was really going for reality in a non piano action package (meaning not doing what I did with my Yamaha action) I'd probably get a Casio Celviano GP500 (yes Casio). They did it in collaboration with Bechstein. Haven't tried it but probably the best you can get, looks like it's just missing escapement, but you get inertial hammer weights which is very noticeable.



+1 for this. I also have a 6'4 grand that I can use only at WE and my choice for everyday playing was on GP500.
Very convincing, I have no issue when moving from GP500 to my grand, or also to a friend's Steinway A...
For non-piano VIs I use a Nektar LX88+, mainly for the controllers. But don't try even to load a piano VI on that...


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## Bullseye (Sep 30, 2018)

Arturia Keylab 88 have the TP100s like SL88 Studio, is it good for playing piano parts or has lighter keys?

The Nektar LX88+ would be excellent as a second keyboard

I understand that a good keyboard has a value around 2k and all those keyboards (Kawai MP11, Yamaha CP4, Nord Piano 4, Roland RD-2000, Casio Celviano GP500) are excellent but exceed the budget...maybe in the future

So the Doepfer PK88 would be a good buy considering that the wooden keys of the SL88 Grand are not better and probably the wood requires more maintenance than plastic.
If I purchase a new Doepfer PK88 I would have the updated fatar action?
Based on your experience Doepfer PK88 has problems of velocity midi or other?

I have also read good reviews on Casio Privia and Roland FP-30


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## jononotbono (Oct 1, 2018)

I've been lost thinking about what 88 Weighted Key Controller I want. Going round in circles and I'm now seriously thinking about StudioLogic SL88 Grand (TP40 Wood). Anybody here using one? It looks fantastic.


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## SchnookyPants (Oct 1, 2018)

Anyone gotten their hands on 
Kawai MP7SE? I've read from glowing to trashing reviews. Was seriously considering til the doubt from a couple of those reviews crept in. I'd appreciate any insight members here may have.


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## Grégory Betton (Oct 2, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> I've been lost thinking about what 88 Weighted Key Controller I want. Going round in circles and I'm now seriously thinking about StudioLogic SL88 Grand (TP40 Wood). Anybody here using one? It looks fantastic.


I’ve tried the SL88 grand this evening. It really feels good, not that heavy, but a good compromise between a piano and a synth feel... but I’m no way a pianist. Need to test a Doepfer Lmk2 to see which one I prefer.


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## Bullseye (Oct 3, 2018)

This morning tried some keyboards in a music store:

- Yamaha P45: I do not like the action of the keys, they are hard to press and do not have a good feeling

- Casio PX-160: Compared to my CDP-100 it is better but the return of the keys is sluggish

- Casio PX-5S: Not bad, the keys are hard to press (maybe because it's new) but less than Yamaha

- Kawai ES110: I prefer it over Yamaha and Casio

- Studiologic Numa Concert with Fatar TP40 Wood, precise keys and fairly reactive but not too fast for fast repetitions.
The action of the keys is not too heavy, the feeling in playing it is a bit "cold and lifeless" but it is a good compromise to play piano or synth parts

- Kawai MP7: the best feeling in performance, reactivity on fast repetitions and excellent dynamics, I was really impressed, also has great internal sounds

Unfortunately I did not find the Roland keyboard to try, in the next days I go to another music store


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## SchnookyPants (Oct 15, 2018)

From the Doepfer website:

_Our master keyboards PK88, LMK2+ and LMK4+ are equipped with the new graded hammer action keybed 88TP/40GH._


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