# Free Speech, Moderation and Censorship



## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

I wanted to start this thread, because of a few things that have cropped up recently in other threads. I would be interested to hear other people's views, as well as from people who act as Moderators on this or other forums.

The questions I am wondering about are:

1) Is this a forum where we can speak about all things, as long as it is legal?
2) How much of a part does the financial structure play on what can and cannot be said.
3) Do we have the right balance of looking after everyone's interests?
4) At what point does Moderation become Censorship?

I feel that if I think that Hollywood Ass, CineFarts or Vienna Symphonic Lemon "sucks", I should be entitled to say it, without fear of moderation. Obviously other people are entitled to disagree, but should what I say be moderated, or even deleted? Personally, I think not.

Should I be allowed to say that someone's music is not very good? Of course I should, but it seems that if they are a member off this forum, that's not allowed either. To me it seems sensible that one can either criticise or not; there can't be a distinction between forum members and non-members. The word "respect" is often thrown around, but I think that respect falls into may different camps:

1) Respect for a person
2) Respect for what someone has achieved
3) Respect for what someone has tried to achieve
4) Respect for someone's work.

To me the last is the least important, because it is just that; work. If someone in any other walk of life does their job badly (in your opinion) you are entitled to have no respect for the way they do their job, but it seems that composition should be treated differently. I disagree with that sentiment. If someone thinks that I'm a bad composer, or even musician, they are entitled to their opinion. I don't see it as a lack of respect for me, just my work, which is very subjective. Obviously the only time this will hurt me is if I believe that the person concerned knows what they are talking about. Nevertheless, it is still their right to have an opinion, and that is something that do respect!

I'd be interested to hear other opinions on these questions, because the answers don't seem clear cut to me.

D


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## Resoded (Nov 22, 2012)

I think saying that you are "disappointed" with a product in the subject line is very much okay. I'm surprised the moderators changed it.

Most (All?) of us here are adults. We all know that opinions are highly subjective. No matter which product there will always be happy, neutral and unhappy customers.


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## MoonFlare (Nov 22, 2012)

Respect and political correctness. Now that are two terms which yield a lot of conflicts. I'm just throwing out a hypothesis here: does the situations you are referring to on this forum have something to do with this initially being a US forum? Hence, that the US culture has influenced the culture on this forum? josejherring once wrote in one of his replies that the rest of the world looks to US as a kind of role model (I don't remember the exact phrasing), and that others admire US. I'm not sure where he has that from, but it is definitely not the case (due to a lot of reasons). Political correctness is one such thing. Apparently, you can't say or do "anything" in the US without stepping on someone's toes - and you may even get punished for it. Based on the impression I've got: it's pretty insane how far political correctness has pervaded the US society (there's articles on this online). Can this be a partial reason?

As you point out, why shouldn't people be entitled to utter their opinions directly (with certain restrictions of course), without being censored by "big brother"? Are people actually so hurt by strangers' comments and thoughts? As far as I've seen on this forum, people usually phrase their disagreements nicely. 

Or, ultimately, is the underlying reasons purely financial?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2012)

There's a difference between civility and politial correctness, and I would agree that what's thought of as civil in Europe (or at least stylistically consistent) is often considered less civil here. I've been startled at the blunt writing style of certain members from colder climes.


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## Alex Cuervo (Nov 22, 2012)

From the Cinebrass thread:



MoonFlare @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> I completely agree with you Sir. This is censorship indeed! Alex Cuervo probably has his hands in the cookie jar of a sample library company or similar judging his statements, so don't mind him.



Um, sorry to burst your conspiracy theory bubble, but no. I'm just a musician and a consumer of these libraries. But I'm also a guy who has an aversion to complainiacs, drama queens and persecution complexes.

I don't go join a club so that I can complain about the way that it's run if it doesn't suit me. The simplest solution would be to not join the club, or upon realizing that the club doesn't adhere exactly to my worldview - gracefully exit without causing a fuss and looking like a total pain in the rear end. I have no problem disagreeing with people and having heated discussions, but I'm always going to respect the rules of the roof I'm under.

If I start a club and invite people to join it, and invite some business to sponsor it - you can be damn sure that I'm going to moderate the goings on so that everybody stays constructive and it doesn't disintegrate into childish squabbles and bickering. To me, this includes moderating the behavior of the sponsors as well - but you know what, it boils down to MY prerogative because it's MY club. Don't like it? Start your own. It happens all the time.

The notion in the other thread that people pay to participate here is way off. Donations are not fees - they are voluntary. I don't pay to participate on this forum, and here I am saying what I want. If something I say gets moderated - then big WHOOP DEE DO. It's words. On a screen. I'll live to see another day without the rest of the people in this world having bowed to the STAGGERING ALL IMPORTANCE OF WHAT I MIGHT HAVE TO SAY.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 22, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> From the Cinebrass thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...and yet high handed moderation, which this forum is 99.9999% NOT guilty of, can destroy forums. We've all seen it before.Also, the appearance of OVER-fairness to advertisers can leave a bad taste. It's all a slippery slope. I want this place to flourish, so my comments are all about keeping it the incredibly cool place it is.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2012)

180 degrees in one direction sometimes brings you to the wrong place.

180 degrees in the opposite direction also generally brings you to the wrong place.


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## wst3 (Nov 22, 2012)

I think a little common sense would lead to sufficient civility, leaving moderation as a last resort. And for the most part that seems to be the case.

The first thing to remember is that the moderators are human. They might be having a bad day (burned the toast, ran out of coffee, stubbed their toe on the way to the pantry, tripped over the cat, etc).

The second thing to remember is that the members are human, and equally susceptible to bad days.

If I pay $X for a library, and discover that it is loaded with bugs, or even just doesn't suit me, I should say so. But I should keep in mind that not everyone will find those bugs to be a problem, and that it likely will suit some folks.

So share you concerns, but stop short of slagging the library. Common sense I think.

Same goes for compositions and arrangements shared here. I don't like everything I hear, but I'll wager I learn something from the vast majority of them.

Where I have suggestions I try to phrase them in a constructive manner, e.g. "have you tried compression on the guitar part to bring it out?" Not "Why can't I hear the guitar part you moron, everyone knows the guitar part is the most important!!!"

When someone does attack a product, composition, or another member personally I think the moderators ought to give them an opportunity to edit it, and if that fails then they can resort to moderation.

as far as the question about whether or not advertisers get any special treatment, I think it's spelled out pretty clearly in the TOS.

I have yet to see a case where it was clear that moderation was enforced because an advertiser was involved. I may have missed it... but that would surprise me.

Does that mean it isn't a level playing field? Sure, welcome to reality. But the rules are there for all to read, so I can't get too upset about it.

My only minor quibble about this forum (other than the fact that all of the developers don't send me free copies of their libraries just cause I'm such a great guy) is that sometimes, in the past, threads have descended into name calling and personal attacks, and the reaction has been slow. Now I attribute that to the fact that no one wants to play censor... and I agree it's a bad position to be in.

And I acknowledge that my reaction in these cases may well be influenced by the fact that I know the folks who were on the wrong end of the insults, and I did not think they were deserved.

So it turns out that nothing is clear cut<G>!

That's my view, worth exactly what you paid for it.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 22, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> 180 degrees in one direction sometimes brings you to the wrong place.
> 
> 180 degrees in the opposite direction also generally brings you to the wrong place.



Make three lefts, you are actually making a right.


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## MoonFlare (Nov 22, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> If I start a club and invite people to join it, and invite some business to sponsor it - you can be damn sure that I'm going to moderate the goings on so that everybody stays constructive and it doesn't disintegrate into childish squabbles and bickering.



Is this your perception of what happened in the other thread? 

I see your point that if you can not accept how it's done you should leave. But as NYC Composer pointed out, too much of bad management and too many people will leave. Regardless, the forum is nothing without contributing people.


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 22, 2012)

As someone who is just starting out in the composing world I am a bit reluctant to post my work. Partly is that I am overly critical of it and do not think it is ready yet. However, if I ever want to get better I need people to tell me how to improve it. 

There is a difference between constructive criticism and being rude. Telling someone that there music sucks is not the best way to get them to improve. Telling them that there is too much bass frequency in the mix and putting an EQ on it, is.


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## chimuelo (Nov 22, 2012)

Free Speech should be cherished, but you are also in someone elses private property.
You could always get your own show... _-)


Happy Thanksgiving To All Who Believe In Sharing.......


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

Lots of good points. Just a couple more from me.

One man's civility is another man's patronising. I do see a different way of expressing things from Europeans to those in the US and I don't think it has anything to do with English being a second language for some of those from Europe. I have my theories, but wouldn't want to offend anyone by sharing them. :lol: 

As far as criticism for music is concerned, there is a real difference between someone offering up their work for constructive help, to a professional working at the top of their game. If I posted some of my music because I needed help with something, I would expect constructive criticism. If I had scored a feature film, for example, and someone wrote that they thought that the music sucked, then that is also fair. I have presented my work as best I can, and in the end I want the film to make money so that I can also make money. This is no different to a sample developer trying to sell me one of their products. I am also trying to sell something; my talent. Or lack of it, if that's what your opinion supports. :wink: 

D


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

Sorry, one more thing that I meant to say.

I don't think that the Moderators do a bad job on this forum. Quite the opposite, actually. There have been a couple of times where they were too heavy handed, IMO, but in all cases they explained why they acted the way they did. I think that this is a good policy, and had this happened in the other thread, I don't think that there would have been a problem. In that case I think that suspicion was unfairly cast upon Cinesamples, and that could have been avoided if the Mod had explained what and why the moderation had happened. I'm sure that this won't always be possible, but I do think that if someone steps over a line, they should be reminded where the line is, which might help them to avoid stepping over it again.

Just a thought.

D


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## José Herring (Nov 22, 2012)

It's a valid point imo. There are some developers on this forum that are so touchy they threaten legal action or pulling their advertising as soon as there's a bad word said about their product.

It's a shame. There are some huge problems, pluses or minuses with all libraries and unless we're allowed to discuss them openly then we suffer.

I didn't pay much attention to the thread in question. Cinesamples behavior on this forum has disgusted me so I tend not to pay attention when their products are mention. I own none of them, I don't plan on getting any of them. So I take the has nothing to do with me attitude.

But, if a user comes on here saying that he has some problems then wants to discuss, why would anybody want to get in the way of that? It does block a healthy discussion about the strengths and limitations of a product.

We don't want to be reduced to a bunch of PR heads for particular companies.


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## rayinstirling (Nov 22, 2012)

It's getting very cold and damp here in North West Europe Brrrrrrrrrrr! Even the rest of Europe are giving us the cold shoulder. Happy Thanksgiving to the friendly US of A
o-[][]-o


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## chimuelo (Nov 22, 2012)

I wish I knew the thread and could have read it, then made the decision if the typical sabatuers were at work, or legitimate beefs were being made.
But I know Jose is a just and fair guy for a white dude, so I take this as a warning to investigate their products prior to purchasing.

I prefer developers with their own forum, but appreciate this place for the discovery and advertisements. Like AudioBro has. Well that's how the big guys do it I guess.

I really enjoy trying to help out new guys just getting off of the ground too.

And Ray don't worry about the EU, they are printing and will collapse just like we will and England will once again be our Soverign.

Happy Thansgiving, my Gravy is fierce this year...... 0oD


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## Mike Greene (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm barely a moderator, and to be honest, a little uncomfortable with the title. But I can offer a few general behind the scenes insights.

First, being an advertiser is never a factor in this sort of thing. In fact, my guess is that if someone started a complaint with _"I'm an advertiser, so you guys need to . . . "_ then that would actually work _against_ the person because the presumption would piss us off. (I'm not sure sure I should actually be saying that.)

In this particular case, Cinesamples made no complaint. To their credit, they even said they wouldn't have changed the thread title. Agree or disagree with the moderators' actions, they're completely innocent.

I don't know who did change it. I'm not even sure whether I personally think it should have or should not have been changed. But here's the thing to keep in mind:

The forum policy is definitely _"As little moderation as possible."_ Truly we trust everyone to self moderate when posting.

But a thread _title_ is a little different. Someone scanning topics six months from now will only see titles and the words "Cinebrass" and "disappointment" and likely not read the whole contents of all these threads. But that "disappontment" word will stick in in their head. Thread titles can carry considerably more weight than anything that's posted in the thread itself.

So out of fairness to a developer (*any* developer, advertiser or not) my guess is that a mod edited the title. It's a tough call I could see going either way. But in this case, given that the "disapppointments" seemed fairly minor (to me, at least, by sample library standards) and not really worthy of a banner title trumpeting (Ha!) a message that CB is a disappointment, I'm personally kinda leaning that the title was inappropriate. But either way, whether we agree with the decision or not, it was an honest one that had to be made quickly by someone who is volunteering his time and truly trying to do the right thing. It's not the beginnings of a new wave of mass censorship.

I agree that an explanation would have been nice. But . . . having been a moderator for a few months now, I can tell you that the "explanations" are the hardest part of this gig. By far. It's like being a politician. To write a complete explanation takes considerable time and effort, because someone is going to be pissed, which means any slip-up in wording can come back to haunt us. I had to write my first one a few weeks ago and trust me, it's harder than you might think. That's not to say one shouldn't have been offered in this case, but that brings us back to Bill's point of us all being human, combined with the fact that there's now always time to do a complete job including explanations and whatnot.

I'll add one other thing. While the forum policy is that moderation be minimal, there do come times when things arise that could put Frederick (as owner of this forum) in a risky position from a legal standpoint. A few weeks ago, Leo (a very nice guy) posted a Clarinet instrument that used samples from somewhere else. There were questions raised in the thread about whether using these external samples was legal. If it's not and the thread is left to stand, there's a possibility the forum could be sued. (Damn lawyers! Oh wait, 'cept for my lawyer, of course. And MichaelL.)

So we pulled the thread. It was a couple days before we got around to contacting Leo. Yeah, we should have done it right away, but again, there's that whole limited time thing. And the human thing. Well, it turns out Leo did indeed have permission. (Like I said, a really good guy.) The thread was reinstated. But a few people were bitter about how it was handled. I can kinda understand that, but as the point guy on this one, I can tell you for sure that our intentions were good.

The last thing VI Control wants is censorship. Or to over-moderate. You see, we're those old school dads who let our kids duke it out. (_"Son, that bloody nose will make a man out of you!"_) But there are times when we do have to step in. (Although some times that we miss, and some times that maybe we should have missed.) But it's always only when we truly think (at the time) that we *need* to step in, either out of fairness or for legal reasons.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> But a thread _title_ is a little different. Someone scanning topics six months from now will only see titles and the word "disappointment" and likely not read the whole contents of all these threads. But that "disappontment" word will stick in in their head. Thread titles can carry considerably more weight than anything that's posted in the thread .



Exactly the point I made earlier.


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## germancomponist (Nov 22, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Mike Greene @ Thu Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > But a thread _title_ is a little different. Someone scanning topics six months from now will only see titles and the word "disappointment" and likely not read the whole contents of all these threads. But that "disappontment" word will stick in in their head. Thread titles can carry considerably more weight than anything that's posted in the thread .
> ...



+1

The same at newspapers e.t.c.: The headline is the eye-catcher.... .


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

Mike, I understand all of your points, but I still feel that if I believe that a product is a pile of poo I should be able to put it in a thread title. After all, anyone who is looking for opinions would read the thread anyway, so trying to water down the title of the thread would be irrelevant.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Mike, I understand all of your points, but I still feel that if I believe that a product is a pile of poo I should be able to put it in a thread title. After all, anyone who is looking for opinions would read the thread anyway, so trying to water down the title of the thread would be irrelevant.
> 
> D



i disagree respectfully Daryl, and as Mike Greene pointed out, there are times when if it was allowed to continue, it could actually be actionable to the forum's owner(s).

Let's take a hypothetical forum where TV and film producers as well as composers participate. Say that some guy titles a thread "Jay Asher is a crappy composer" and the forum owner allows it to stay that way, despite my objecting to it (which I understand the CineSamples guys did not do)

i then submit to a producer and he says, "Jay, I liked your submission but person X started a whole thread just to say you are crappy, so you maybe are. I have therefore decided to hire someone else".

You better believe the owner of that forum is going to hear from my attorney and that at that point I am going to make it one of goals in life to impose financial hurt on him.


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike, I understand all of your points, but I still feel that if I believe that a product is a pile of poo I should be able to put it in a thread title. After all, anyone who is looking for opinions would read the thread anyway, so trying to water down the title of the thread would be irrelevant.
> ...


Jay, you would have to prove that you're not a crappy composer, in order to have any chance of winning. I'm sure that I could easily prove that you were crappy (as is the rest of the composing community, including myself), by comparing you with Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms etc. :wink: 

I know what you're getting at, but I'm afraid that I still think that there must be freedom to give opinions, otherwise this forum is not only emasculated, but pretty pointless.

BTW, if it was so easy to win those sort of cases, critics would be out of jobs. The only time I've ever heard of a critic being sued and losing, was when they said that an actress was fat.

D


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## Mike Greene (Nov 22, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Mike, I understand all of your points, but I still feel that if I believe that a product is a pile of poo I should be able to put it in a thread title. After all, anyone who is looking for opinions would read the thread anyway, so trying to water down the title of the thread would be irrelevant.


I don't disagree with that. I think a strong title is fine if that's also what the content of the post is, and the content is legit. If you hate Product X and post a topic with the title, _"Product X - My worst purchase this year!"_ and then posted your reasons for saying this, then I think that's fine. (I'm only speaking for myself, obviously.)

It's just that to me, in this particular thread, the content of the post didn't really match the title, which might have been too provocative for what were some fairly minor quibbles. Or maybe not. Again, it wasn't me who changed it. In this specific case, I can see reasons to change it and I can see reasons not to. It's kinda like being a football referee. There are certain calls than just aren't going to please everybody.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Thu Nov 22 said:
> ...



I don't think that is true in the U.S. i would only have to prove that the forum's owner was negligent in allowing the thread to continue, which caused me damage.

Once again, I think there is a difference between what is allowed in the title and what is allowed in the body of the discussion. 

But clearly you disagree, and I respect that.


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> I don't think that is true in the U.S. i would only have to prove that the forum's owner was negligent in allowing the thread to continue, which caused me damage.


You may well be right. I think you would have no chance in the UK, and that's all to the good, IMO. However, things might be changing here, judging by all the Lord McAlpine hoopla.

D


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## Rctec (Nov 22, 2012)

Daryl, I'd like to come at this from a slightly different angle.

This is a forum for composers and I've never yet met an artist who isn't hypersensitive about their creations. I've done this professionally (?) for thirty years, but still - every time I have to play a new composition to someone, I break out in a cold sweat. It's not like my livelihood depends on their judgement, but that my dreams would be crushed - and what defines me in my music, if not dreams and imagination...and my whole life is defined by music...I love writing music, which makes me very boring in a normal social settingt. Its a very personal and private thing for me, and - while I feel I can hide my true self behind words, I feel my core is totally exposed in music. It's not a job, it's not "going to work", the way it's understood in the 9 to 5 world, it's something more fragile and poetic and private. So when I hear people writing about 'clients' and 'jobs', I think (I hope) they are just kidding themselves, protecting their vulnerability, trying to hide the love and passion that would make them write music, no matter what, no matter the pay. So I think we have to come at criticism a little more gently, and self aware, so it can be absorbed and not crush and actually be helpful. (A good exercise in how much pain can you take is to have your music discussed by a focus group after a movie preview.)

Of course the dichotomy of my life here is that, as a German, I can't help voicing a bit of "Schadenfreude" now and then, which, combined with the endless irony you automatically learn to infuse every sentence with the English education system, makes me paricularily brash and horrible person in my posts. ...and recently calling someone an "idiot" in one of my posts just goes to show that I'm the blackest kettle. Sorry.

Now, the sample libraries.... I've obviously met quite a few developers over the years, and I've never yet come across anyone that doesn't want to do an extraordinary job. They are just as sensitive, passionate and quirky as the composers. Most of them are musicians and composers in their own right. They didn't get into this game because they thought they could make a quick buck from us dreamers, but because they where interested and passionate in building great, innovative tools we're supposed to write good music with. They picked the grinding tedium of cutting up, naming and tuning samples over the thrill of Wall Street bonuses. Imagine that!

And each time someone unleashes a new library upon us, I want to bet dollars to doughnuts that it was harder, more expensive, more time consuming than they'd ever imagined when they planned it out, that the original budget and timeline went by the wayside. Because each library is usually Terra Icognita, untested new ground. And I'm probably right in thinking that by the time you cut your 30000 samples, you've already thought of a much better v2.00. These are, at most, small teams of people having to deal with huge amounts of data. Each library evolves (within reason) through feedback from its customers. All the complaints about being a beta tester come to an end when you realize that you can actually influence the development of your instrument through communicating with the developers on forums like this. Try that with your Fender Strat or your Steinway grand.
So, I think this should be a conversation about constructive feedback, not the censorship of criticism. I think the idea of external censorship is irrelevant in the context of this tiny community of composers and the developers of our tools. (If you people didn't all insist on running different DAWs and computers and plugins and operating systems, "Play" would probably work. Just a hunch.)

Censorship has no place in art. It's the enemy sitting on your shoulder when you're writing. Its "Pussyriot" going to jail. And I consider the people writing software and making libraries as artists. 
In an artistic community you criticize the man when you criticize the work. It's not making rivets.
We all agree to not have censorship on this forum. The legal thing is a whole other subject - just read about David Irving's case against Penguin books in England,versus the U.S. 

I think it's up to the members to think about how they want to be perceived...

H


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 22, 2012)

OK, so too much turkey, stuffing, and lovely drinks, but this is a great community!!!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 22, 2012)

I guess the ultimate question is can there be no "moderation" that is not viewed as censorship? If so, what is that line?

Respectfully, the only thing Mr. Zimmer wrote in his last post that I agree 100% with is his last sentence, "I think it's up to the members to think about how they want to be perceived."


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## rJames (Nov 22, 2012)

I hope we can agree that censoring a thread title is the moderators right. The amazing thing about this forum is that it happens so infrequently. It's a fine line between libel and just trying to get a conversation going about your disappointment about wasting your hard earned money.

Sometimes you get a much ( much) quicker response from a developer when you post here rather than try to get a response from tech support. That is one of the beauties and advantages of a forum that has such an amazing user base. This is where you go to hear real life stories.

That said, when having a discussion with a few hundred strangers from around the planet, we need to learn how to discern truth (or at least honesty) from [email protected]


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## José Herring (Nov 22, 2012)

@Mike, you have to at least see that though Cinesamples may have not been involved in this particular kerfuffle, their behavior in the past would make anybody nervous when a similar thread appears.

All the original poster did is state that he was "disappointed" in his purchase. Imo, that's not even anything to get nervous about, and yet obviously somebody did.

I fully understand that they are personally tied up in their creation and certainly any criticism would hurt, but I just don't think we can afford to be too sensitive in such matters.

In the past having criticized their Woodwind library, I was vilified for expressing my opinion. Called all sorts of names, not necessarily by them but by people defending them. Imo, totally uncalled for. 

I feel the same about this thread. Why sensor a title that wasn't even offensive to begin with? Makes absolutely no sense and would give people pause about posting anything. I for one have certainly cut down my post since my cinesamples experience and haven't really originated new topics either. Why? I just don't feel like putting up with the BS anymore.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 22, 2012)

This was brought up earlier in this thread (Mike?), but I will reiterate.

The problem as I see it, is not so much that the thread title was changed, but that it was changed without a reason, by someone who (seemingly) hid underneath his moderator hat. Now, I hate to accuse people of things where I don't know details and reasoning, but it *seems* that the mod who changed the title was doing just that - hiding. He may have thought he was doing the right thing; I am positive it was not done maliciously, nor with an agenda. But I am going to put forth this request - that if any mod does anything similiar in the future, they publicly state why the change was made, and to do so in that thread. "Thread title changed due to potential libel" or "2nd half of post deleted due to violiation of forum rules - no threats allowed" etc. This way two things happen:

1) Other forum members who have seen the original title/post/etc. now know why the change was made, and 1a) the thread does not get derailed into a conversation about consorship, 2b) the dev does not appear to possibly have requested the change

2) There will be no overzealousness on the part of the mods. Not that I have seen much of that; I have seen very little, but trust me - no mod is going to change a title from "X-lib difficulties" to "X-lib thoughts" and then turn around and state that the reason for the change was because they were worried about the paying dev getting p'd off. If the mods are not required to state a reason, they can in fact do that. If they are, then they can't.

That being said, all in all, I think the mods do a great job, and I appreciate this forum being here (thank you Frederick) for several reasons. Let's keep it clean, fun, and a good place for all.

Cheers.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 22, 2012)

josejherring @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> I feel the same about this thread. Why sensor a title that wasn't even offensive to begin with? Makes absolutely no sense and would give people pause about posting anything. I for one have certainly cut down my post since my cinesamples experience and haven't really originated new topics either. Why? I just don't feel like putting up with the BS anymore.



Jose - "Putting up with the BS anymore?" I'm not sure if it's what you intend, but the victim-speech is coming off really brattish imo.

I was one of the very many banned from Northern Sounds. That place was horrific, ruined by draconian censorship. So I support vigilance here. But the two situations are wildly different. What we have here is one thread title changed - no content - which, if I read Frederick's post right on the other thread, was considered to be an error of judgement. That's it. People and mods are human.

This community is without paralell to me. To my knowledge I've never personally been censored and I shoot my mouth off enough. The issues I know of over the years of censorship have mostly involved the threat of legal action on the part of one party or another, in which circumstance (as Jay has pointed out) the forum gets caught in the crossfire.

So enough with the victimhood. VI Control is to be celebrated, a place indeed to the thankful for (still Thanskgiving on the West Coast as I type!). It's a place where arguably the world's biggest film composer spends time and care to discuss all manner of issues with the whole community. VI control has provided me with unmeasurable help over the years - I don't know if I'd be where am I today without it, frankly.

Should we exercise care when posting? Of course - that's just basic civility. Should we say what we mean? Of course. Should we be vigilant of the mods controversial decisions? Of course. Riff's just made some constructive suggestions in the post above mine. But I'm really uncomfortable with what feels like an entitlement culture whine when the work done here by Frederick and the mods is so deeply appreciated by so many of us.

As I've got in under the wire - happy Thanksgiving to all.


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## José Herring (Nov 22, 2012)

Guy, I I think you're way off base.

I never consider myself a victim. Never. Nor do I feel entitled.

What I do object to is people calling me stupid, or insane, or any number of names I've been called, because I express opinions that are different than what the mainstream goes for here. That opinion of the mainstream dictated by a few people of questionable repute imo. 

Honestly, I've spent nearly 7000 post here. Most with a specific idea in mind. I had hopes for this place to become an online sort of Remote Control productions. I find it ironic that Hans is now a member. My original thoughts for this place was that we "up and comers" could ban together on a forum like this and pool our resources and make something pretty great working together like RC productions.

But, over the years I've abandoned that idea.

Over the years a few people that really don't know what they're talking about musically or production wise have been allowed to completely clobber just about everybody else. Many of the more seasoned people have dropped out of participation.

This last little thing has become somewhat of a final nail in the coffin. 

I recognized that it may be an error in judgement on the mods part, but really that error was precipitated by some really heavy handed attempts to control this forum by certainly developers through legal threats, or threats to pull advertising funding because they didn't like what somebody was saying about their product. So I can understand why mods would be so jumpy when things get heated over a product.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for Fred, and the mods, many of whom I've met personally and have hung out with here in LA, been to their homes and studios, had dinner with, met their spouses, ect...

So don't come to me with your attitude and accuse me of something that quite obviously you have no idea. Many of the mods here are my friends now.

So there


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## nikolas (Nov 22, 2012)

As a moderator here, I think that I've very very rarely had to edit a post, or delete anything (I think I did once and that's about it). I've shown a few things (quite few actually) to the rest of the mod team, and gave my opinion on other things.

Personally, I think that this place is running perfectly. When *someone* gets out of order, or goes berserk, we the mods do contact him privately and go "Mr. x... blah blah". I think that all reply and things get solved this way.

The one thing that I'd like to comment on is that anyone should be allowed to offer their opinion, especially since most over here do know what they're talking about! But it's one thing to offer an opinion, on music, or a product and another to place the word 'shite' (For example) in a title of a thread for everyone to see! A product being bad, or with bugs, or not working as intended (it's not like we've never ever seen high profile products not working for AGES until the producers got them half right *ahem*), does not deserve a lack of respect! It's still a product, and especially with almost all sample developers it's a product made with love, care, and tons of sacrifices!


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## Cinesamples (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi all, I thought I would just repost what we posted on the CineBrass "difficulties" thread:

==========
Just saw this thread now. Thanks to whoever anonymously changed the subject line - but we don't care if you want to change it back to "CineBrass disappointments". Not to be all pollyanna, but if you don't tell us what you want changed, we won't know! 

Having said that, can't wait to show you guys the v1.5 update!!! Everything you have been talking about has been addressed. (Also the new GUI is super sexy.)
==========

The change of the subject was a surprise to us too. Sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists! 

M


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 23, 2012)

Jose, especially if these people are your friends - re-read your own post. See how it comes over. Is that how you talk to your friends, working incredibly hard to do something incredibly difficult and for the most part succeeding incredibly well? Just think about what Frederick in particular has been through in the past couple of years, yet still he tirelessly steers this fine rowdy ship.

I agree the legal threats has made life difficult from time to time, but honestly what we have here is still something really tremendous. And when it comes to those threats, my sympathies are entirely with VI-C, I don't want to use them as a battering ram to attack the place.

Anyway, that's all I have to say on that - I wish you no ill obviously and you're a terrific contributor here. But I do feel passionately that this is a place that many of us value, and I want to defend that.


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## Ganvai (Nov 23, 2012)

nikolas @ 23rd November 2012 said:


> As a moderator here, I think that I've very very rarely had to edit a post, or delete anything (I think I did once and that's about it). I've shown a few things (quite few actually) to the rest of the mod team, and gave my opinion on other things.
> 
> Personally, I think that this place is running perfectly. When *someone* gets out of order, or goes berserk, we the mods do contact him privately and go "Mr. x... blah blah". I think that all reply and things get solved this way.
> 
> The one thing that I'd like to comment on is that anyone should be allowed to offer their opinion, especially since most over here do know what they're talking about! But it's one thing to offer an opinion, on music, or a product and another to place the word 'shite' (For example) in a title of a thread for everyone to see! A product being bad, or with bugs, or not working as intended (it's not like we've never ever seen high profile products not working for AGES until the producers got them half right *ahem*), does not deserve a lack of respect! It's still a product, and especially with almost all sample developers it's a product made with love, care, and tons of sacrifices!



+1


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## MoonFlare (Nov 23, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> There have been a couple of times where they were too heavy handed, IMO, but in all cases they explained why they acted the way they did. I think that this is a good policy, and had this happened in the other thread, I don't think that there would have been a problem.



I mostly agree! On the contrary to Mike Greene's mod defence speech, I do believe that it is always possible to give a reason why something was moderated - one sentence at least indicating the motivation.

But there's another essential thing: it should be made clear in the forum rules that moderation may happen because of money being invested by companies. Do I believe moderation based on this is correct - absolutely not! But then, by accepting the forum rules that specify this particular concern, I also accept the premise that this may happen. Hence, the reason for moderation should ideally point to the forum rule that was broken causing such moderation to happen. This time it was no rules that were broken. 



josejherring @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> ...because I express opinions that are different than what the mainstream goes for here...



You know, it's a group evolution strategy for humans to stick together, because they're inherent afraid of being too different from the mainstream. It's all about social belonging. You have my sincere respect for expressing opinions that are "outside of the box".



josejherring @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> I recognized that it may be an error in judgement on the mods part, but really that error was precipitated by some really heavy handed attempts to control this forum by certainly developers through legal threats, or threats to pull advertising funding because they didn't like what somebody was saying about their product. So I can understand why mods would be so jumpy when things get heated over a product.



USA is a peculiar country. Everybody sues everbody for everything. In Europe we are shocked to hear about what's going on over there. It seems like capitalism has lost its foothold (and I'm definitely not a socialist!). Apparantly, common sense has been suppressed by the ever increasing power of capitalism. Scary!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2012)

In a way, I think the flap over the thread title change illustrates how light- handed the moderation is here 99.99% of the time, which to my mind makes for a superb forum. I'm a fan of and an evangelist for this place. I do think that vigilance is required and that censorship or sensitive moderation for advertising is a slippery slope.

I've read and understood the points of view that artistic sensitivities and commercial concerns are in play here, but I think to have a serious interchange of ideas , those things have to be secondary to reasonably expressed concerns or criticisms. You can't have it just one way and be taken seriously- if a thread tile like "CB is Awesome!!" is okay, then "Problems with CB" has to be tolerated too, else this place starts taking on the aspect of an ad forum that licks the pant leg of devs. I'm very grateful that devs are so participatory here, but I also think long discussions about their products here is additional free PR that becomes more significant as the user base grows.


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## Daryl (Nov 23, 2012)

Again, lots of good points.

To answer HZ's main thrust that we are all, including sample developers, sensitive artists, I would agree. However, that doesn't mean that a developer should get an easy ride. In the end they are still hoping to get my money, and precisely because of the time and investment n their product, it is not easy for them to be unbiased. Certainly, under normal circumstances I wouldn't want to start thread blasting the product out of the water, but I think that my main thought was that I should be able to, as long as it was justified. What I think I was interested in was how far this freedom of speech should be taken. For once I totally agree with Larry; if it is alright to say that a product is fantastic, it should also be alright to say that it is not fantastic.

As far as one of HZ's other points about composers having their music picked apart, emotionally I am with him 100%. However, nobody chooses a life in commercial music without having to grow a thick skin. My point about that was that if we are to be a fair forum, either everyone should be safe, or nobody should. It shouldn't matter whether or not they are members of this forum. I have never commented in any kind of negative way on anyone's music, but I feel that I have the right to do so, just as they have the right to comment on mine. Sometimes trying to be too tactful ends up just covering things with a patronising veneer of insincerity, and achieves the opposite effect to that which was intended.

I think that Riff's thoughts are broadly in line with mine, when it comes to moderation. By all means change things, but state why. That way the person who feels slighted can always take it up with the Moderator in private, and there is no need to wash dirty linen in public. I'm pretty sure that if I got a PM saying" Sorry I had to change the title of your thread, Daryl, but it is very difficult legal ground, and I don't want to be sued", I would understand immediately. It may be censorship, but because I would understand the reasons it would probably not be a problem.

D


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## MoonFlare (Nov 23, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> I'm pretty sure that if I got a PM saying" Sorry I had to change the title of your thread, Daryl, but it is very difficult legal ground, and I don't want to be sued", I would understand immediately. It may be censorship, but because I would understand the reasons it would probably not be a problem.



There you go!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 23, 2012)

After seeing this thread, I went back read through the original one.

I actually cant understand what the fuss is all about. It just said 'Disappointing'. I find that totally okay. Later I also read that Mike was okay about this and actually did not ask for any moderation. In that case, it seems its not due to any legal or advertising issues. 

In my mind in this case censorship (rarely I have seen it happen though) was perhaps unnecessary (unless there was a real legal issue which does not seem to be the case).

I thought this forum runs on a majority of the funds coming in from member donations rather than advertising. I remember reading somewhere that advertising revenue was small amount.

Agreed, that everyone involved wants to create the best sample library and all of us want to write the best music possible but one should be allowed to speak their mind about a certain product. I did not find anything offensive in the original post about CS. 

In fact I feel that the best part about this forum for both developers and composers is that they can communicate freely and develop products better suited for all of us. 

Flame wars should be moderated if it gets out of hand but somebody's opinion about a certain library after having purchased it should not be moderated (unless of course the OP is way out of line or has not really used the product well to its full potential - example - wasn't there a YoungComposer post about Cubase sometime back that was exactly like that?)/

Just my thoughts.


Tanuj.


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## Kejero (Nov 23, 2012)

In reply to the OT: using "moderate" language goes a long way in keeping discussions constructive between as many different cultures as there are on a forum like this. Language and behaviour that are considered perfectly acceptable in one country can be deemed very offensive by another. Add in the lack of intonation and gestures in the written word, and you have a recipe for a lot of potential misunderstandings and flamewars.

Personally I'm used to pretty direct language, no sugarcoating. It's the way I frequently expect to be approached and the way I act by nature, and I'm sure I come across to many people like an ass on occasion as well. The fact that sarcasm is part of my mother tongue doesn't help either. But does all of this warrant moderation? Yes I think it does actually. Nobody sets out to start flame wars for the heck of it (except "trolls", of course), but if it can be prevented, it's probably just for the best. I do agree with the notion that when moderation/sensorship is applied, it should also be publicly motivated.

In general, "no hard feelings" is a good attitude to pursue, though especially for a breed like us composers, emotions are part of our core that are often particularly difficult to simply switch off. That said, these forums are easily amongst the most decent I've ever encountered on the web, and as far as I can tell the moderation here is top notch as well.

From what I can gather I personally don't feel that the concerned change was justified. The OP obviously felt "disappointed" for the reasons they mentioned and I don't consider it insulting or damaging to phrase it as such. Especially if you consider the language of some of the professional PLAY-bashers for instance. The fact that their disappointent was also argumented makes it the more acceptable in my opinion. But there you go, that's just my take on it. It's also obvious that someone else felt it was inappropriate, even considering the provided argumentations, and in this case my take on it is that if the rammifications of making the change are really not that relevant, then just go ahead with it.


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## José Herring (Nov 23, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> Jose, especially if these people are your friends - re-read your own post. See how it comes over. Is that how you talk to your friends, working incredibly hard to do something incredibly difficult and for the most part succeeding incredibly well? Just think about what Frederick in particular has been through in the past couple of years, yet still he tirelessly steers this fine rowdy ship.
> 
> I agree the legal threats has made life difficult from time to time, but honestly what we have here is still something really tremendous. And when it comes to those threats, my sympathies are entirely with VI-C, I don't want to use them as a battering ram to attack the place.
> 
> Anyway, that's all I have to say on that - I wish you no ill obviously and you're a terrific contributor here. But I do feel passionately that this is a place that many of us value, and I want to defend that.



Misinterpreting what I said again. That's fine.

Again, I have the up most respect for the mods on this forum.

My beef is with the legal threats and threatening to pull advertisement from the forum because of somethings that have been said. And also with personal attacks when people disagree. To me. That's BS. Not mods or moderation.


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## Ed (Nov 23, 2012)

Ive seen lots of forums and this forum has the best moderation Ive seen imo


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 23, 2012)

josejherring @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Fri Nov 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Jose, especially if these people are your friends - re-read your own post. See how it comes over. Is that how you talk to your friends, working incredibly hard to do something incredibly difficult and for the most part succeeding incredibly well? Just think about what Frederick in particular has been through in the past couple of years, yet still he tirelessly steers this fine rowdy ship.
> ...



That's good to hear Jose - it's not how that original post read to me at all, but all cool, more than happy to accept that.

BTW - agree with Ed'd comment - moderation here is 99% excellent.


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## Alex Cuervo (Nov 23, 2012)

2 pages strong here & plenty of "lively" discussion about Censorship in the Cinebrass thread. And here I sit wondering what someone from Iran or North Korea would think to read all of this. I'm sure they'd find us all so adorable, splitting hairs over one word being changed on the title of a thread.

First World problems indeed.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 23, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> 2 pages strong here & plenty of "lively" discussion about Censorship in the Cinebrass thread. And here I sit wondering what someone from Iran or North Korea would think to read all of this. I'm sure they'd find us all so adorable, splitting hairs over one word being changed on the title of a thread.
> 
> First World problems indeed.



While I agree this has been slightly overblown, I'm really not a fan of the logic. It's the catch all answer to any problem or issue that isn't on a global crisis scale. Broke your leg? So what, millions are dying from malaria. Your wife left you? Yeah well, a quarter of a million died in the 2004 tsunami. Lost your job? The Twin Towers came down.


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## Alex Cuervo (Nov 23, 2012)

Really? I'm not a huge fan of this oversimplification. Complaining about "Censorship" and stacking that against actual government prescribed censorship is not really the huge divide between job loss and 911. Anybody that told you to shut up about breaking your leg because of malaria is clearly an ass and not worth listening to anyways. See the difference?


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 23, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> Really? I'm not a huge fan of this oversimplification. Complaining about "Censorship" and stacking that against actual government prescribed censorship is not really the huge divide between job loss and 911. Anybody that told you to shut up about breaking your leg because of malaria is clearly an ass and not worth listening to anyways. See the difference?



I mean, I agree that some of the complaining has been way OTT. But if you're saying that people shouldn't be concerned about a music forum's moderation policy because it's a "first world problem" - well, I disagree, that's an illogical leap to me. The decline of Northern Sounds started somewhere I guess, many of us are passionate about the greatness of VI control so I have sympathy with raising this small acorn of an issue... less so about some of the hyperbole of course.


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## Alex Cuervo (Nov 23, 2012)

I think some discussion of a forum's moderation policy is fine. It's healthy. My grievance is how quickly this escalated to bratty drama and hyperbole over what I perceive to be such a small thing. I don't know why it irritated me the way it did - I'm normally content to sit back and be entertained by these "cultural differences". There's plenty of meltdowns and hilarious exaggerations around here to keep me entertained - I'm not exactly sure why I felt compelled to wade into this one.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> I think some discussion of a forum's moderation policy is fine. It's healthy. My grievance is how quickly this escalated to bratty drama and hyperbole over what I perceive to be such a small thing. I don't know why it irritated me the way it did - I'm normally content to sit back and be entertained by these "cultural differences". There's plenty of meltdowns and hilarious exaggerations around here to keep me entertained - I'm not exactly sure why I felt compelled to wade into this one.



Because you're human and we all have our little moments? Just a guess.

If you live in the third world, you have third world problems. If you don't, you mostly don't. The absence of a fight for subsistence leaves more reflective time. Studies indicate that people in the third world experience less depression than people in more prosperous societies. They simply don't have time for such luxuries when there are hungry babies to feed, not to mention their own needs.

You dropped by and dropped in your .02, which indicates that you had the time, the inclination and the computer resources to do so. Using my brilliant deductive skills, that leads me to believe you're a first world person, so- why the edge in your wry observation?


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## Alex Cuervo (Nov 23, 2012)

Larry, 

I can't decide whether you sound more like a therapist or a debate coach gently luring his prey into another hard-earned lesson.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 23, 2012)

Alex- you have it all wrong. Clue- I'm short, green and wizened.*


*no, not an out of date cucumber- try again you must, Luke....


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## Alex Cuervo (Nov 23, 2012)

The Farce is strong with you Master Larry.


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## mikebarry (Nov 23, 2012)

I do think examples of Trolling - the one internet unwritten rule - could be more enforced here.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 24, 2012)

Something recent and specific, Mike?


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## jhansson (Nov 24, 2012)

important for me : Respect !

I do not mind not being judged by someone I know or someone who neither know anything! nothing makes me to post my music, but I like being judged by people who are like me in the hope of advancing and progress this vision , is the best forum for me

Finally! everyone needs to share , the composers more even if it is a trade mercenary (not bad)
must be open!


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## MoonFlare (Nov 26, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Fri Nov 23 said:


> 2 pages strong here & plenty of "lively" discussion about Censorship in the Cinebrass thread. And here I sit wondering what someone from Iran or North Korea would think to read all of this. I'm sure they'd find us all so adorable, splitting hairs over one word being changed on the title of a thread.
> 
> First World problems indeed.



You obviously don't get it!


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 11, 2012)

> Jose - "Putting up with the BS anymore?" I'm not sure if it's what you intend, but the victim-speech is coming off really brattish imo.



I think, Guy, it's worth remembering that this IS an international forum. I'm married to a Brit. We explain our words to each other quite frequently. I don't see that anything Jose was victim-speech, but allow that as a Brit you interpret things differently. Sometimes it's worth asking a clarifying question before deciding that someone is being brattish!


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