# Best piano lib



## ein fisch (Dec 2, 2016)

Hello everyone..

As the title says im looking for the best of the best piano library out there. 

Means, lots of round robins, wide dynamic range, lots of mic positions, etc. Im really interested in the Hans Zimmer Piano bi spitfire audio. But before i buy it i wanna be sure that theres nothing better out there.

Price doesnt matter, if its worth it!

/Dennis


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## tav.one (Dec 2, 2016)

Can't go wrong with HZP


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## muk (Dec 2, 2016)

There is no such thing. If specs are what you are interested in (which your post seems to indicate), the Vienna Imperial has a clear edge over the competitors. It has up to 100 (sic) velocity layers per key. That doesn't help you much if you don't happen to like the tone, though. If you do jazz mostly, have a look at VI Ravenscroft. For classical, Galaxy Vintage D or Garritan CFX (the CFX is a very good allrounder library too). For cinematic/softer music, Piano in blue. For epic and trailer I have no idea which ones are good.


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## fritzmartinbass (Dec 2, 2016)

Like muk said, it is purely a matter of taste. We all hear things differently. For me, I have had good luck with the Galaxy Vintage D fitting in to my mixes. However, I mainly compose orchestral pieces and I certainly do not have every thing out there to try. Maybe tell us what kind of music you write and start a poll.


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## ein fisch (Dec 2, 2016)

muk said:


> There is no such thing. If specs are what you are interested in (which your post seems to indicate), the Vienna Imperial has a clear edge over the competitors. It has up to 100 (sic) velocity layers per key. That doesn't help you much if you don't happen to like the tone, though. If you do jazz mostly, have a look at VI Ravenscroft. For classical, Galaxy Vintage D or Garritan CFX (the CFX is a very good allrounder library too). For cinematic/softer music, Piano in blue. For epic and trailer I have no idea which ones are good.



Yeah, thats what i wanna go for -> piano lib, that i can use for *every *score.. From soft to big epic.. Im also not too experienced when it comes to tell the difference between the piano sound.. if its used for jazz, classical, big epic doesnt matter, just wanna have the feeling im playing a real Piano when i sit down and play my midi keyboard


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## JohnG (Dec 2, 2016)

I would never go by "specs" when choosing a piano. Pick the one whose sound you like. I like East West, Ivory, and this one is something I keep meaning to buy: https://www.vilabsaudio.com/true-keys-american-grand

Use your ears, not some list of "features." There are extras like _una corda_ and pedaling


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 2, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I would never go by "specs" when choosing a piano. Pick the one whose sound you like. I like East West, Ivory, and this one is something I keep meaning to buy: https://www.vilabsaudio.com/true-keys-american-grand
> 
> Use your ears, not some list of "features." There are extras like _una corda_ and pedaling



Absolutely spot on. I have a Nord Stage 2 EX and the Italian Grand XL is a mere 182mb yet it sounds and plays far better than many multi GB libraries - especially in a live setting. 

Having said that - I do like the Ivory II's, in particular the American Concert D and the fabulous Ivory II uprights. It is iLok however, and although I have never had a blip in the many years I have used iLok 1 and now iLok 2 - I do appreciate that some people don't like this.


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## Karma (Dec 2, 2016)

For me personally, of all the piano libraries I've used, nothing has come close to Evolution Rosewood Grand from Orange Tree Samples...


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## synthpunk (Dec 2, 2016)

Some very good advice here also take into effect playability there's some very good sounding piano libraries out there that are just real dogs when it comes to playing them


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## Puzzlefactory (Dec 2, 2016)

I really like Una Corda, but that could just be because I'm a massive Nils Frahm fan.


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## Tysmall (Dec 2, 2016)

It depends what you're using it for, I mainly use my piano libs for sketching and in consequence the only thing that matters to me is play-ability. I look for the most samples per note for velocity mapping, I just want it to feel real and am less after the sound most of the time. Spitfire orchestral grand, 8dio 1969, I also use a bit of the NI stock komplete pianos (the gentleman, grandeur, the giant and the maverick in particular) .. they can be really detailed if you get nitty gritty with customization of velocity mapping. Timbre can be sculpted to an extent in post processing .. realism in the sense of dynamic levels can not.

Higher gb library = more samples. I wouldn't base my purchase solely off of size (because there are a lot of other factors) but a 15gb piano will generally be more dynamic than a 4g one because of the sheer amount of samples provided (not taking scripting or anything into account). Velocity mapping and timbre can be adjusted, what has been recorded and scripted for you can not. Some food for thought.


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## Quasar (Dec 2, 2016)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I really like Una Corda, but that could just be because I'm a massive Nils Frahm fan.


I just got Una Corda over the recent holiday sales, and it's wonderful. But it doesn't seem like an all-purpose, conventional piano, and clearly this isn't what it was designed to be.

For that, I tried several, and the Galaxy Vintage D ended that search.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 2, 2016)

I still use NI's The Gentleman and Alicia Keys, the former for all around, the latter for more Pop or out of the box warmth.

But I'm not exactly the world's biggest piano guy; I'd have to up my rate if commissioned for a piano piece because I don't particularly like writing for it. Piano for me is mostly Beethoven's late era Sonatas, not a whole bunch else. Perhaps it comes from being a Wagnerian, go figure.


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## Christof (Dec 2, 2016)

DennisL said:


> Hello everyone..
> 
> As the title says im looking for the best of the best piano library out there.
> 
> ...


You could also ask for the best music out there 
Good luck!

But seriously, Keyscape is pretty amazing and inspiring, and features much more that only a C7.
Vienna Imperial is amazing but more for classical/jazz.
Make sure to have a good midi keyboard as well, that makes such a difference especially when using pianos with many, many sampled velocities.


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## tack (Dec 2, 2016)

DennisL said:


> Means, lots of round robins, wide dynamic range, lots of mic positions, etc. Im really interested in the Hans Zimmer Piano bi spitfire audio. But before i buy it i wanna be sure that theres nothing better out there.


Is sound all that matters? Do you care at all about feel and playability? Do half pedalling and repedalling matter to you?

Because if sound is really all you care about, there are a huge range of excellent options. But if you're in the ballpark of thinking of yourself as a piano player and playability is important, that range of options is very quickly narrowed drastically.

The majority of lovely sounding libraries out there really do just feel like keys triggering samples. HZP is one of the most egregious cases of this: some of those mic perspectives really sound wonderful, but I would never practice piano with it.

For me, Vintage D is still the gold standard in balancing sound with playability.


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## Fleer (Dec 2, 2016)

Really depends on what your looking for. Neutral, character, lots of character, specific character, you name it. In that last vein, there's the new (Freddie) Mercury from Wavesfactory, it's a Fazioli, and wonderfully musical. Maybe still on intro sale at €99. The Pearl Grand from ImpactSoundworks is very sweet as well. But you may also opt for the EastWest collection, as you get a lot of sound for your buck, yet the libraries are older. And for character, don't forget Piano-in-Blue from Cinesamples, as it's the one Gould recorded his Goldberg Variations on and it was used on Davis' Kind of Blue.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 2, 2016)

Actually a very difficult one to answer I find. I haven't found the best one yet.
I currently use only the Artvista supergrand, but since it lacks the harder F to FF layers I find it somewhat limiting with dynamics.

Been listening on various monitors lately to the keyscape yamaha C7. That actually looks and sounds like a good one. Also with some character and various flavours that appeal to play as a pianist.

8DIO also seems to have a nice upright piano, but they made the odd choice to come up with articulations(!). sustains are as usual, but then a separate short note patch for faster playing so that the release sound is more natural. But.... I just want to play piano, not also there switch articulations.
And the keyscape c7 has a button to have them on or off. On all patches as I understand it.

The new bechstein piano also seems attractive. But again; how do you know before actually playing the instrument its sonority and its merits with other instruments before purchasing a €270,- piano lib.

Have tried the Pianoteq demo recently: and so far this is not for me. too plasticky sounding.

The difficulty I experience with piano libs is that many sound good,....on their own.... but once you use it in a mix or with some other instruments they become thin sounding and you need all kinds of FX or mix tricks to pump up the sound.
Artvista supergrand at least I don have that with. It stays a good nice sounding piano alone and in concert with other instruments. And it plays fairly well as a piano.

All in all: good luck.... I am still looking too :D


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 2, 2016)

Christof said:


> But seriously, Keyscape is pretty amazing and inspiring, and features much more that only a C7.


Hi Christoff: if you are willing to answer, can you say something about your experience when using it in a mix or with other instruments? Does it stay a piano, or do you need to use various tricks to keep it intact in a mix?

I have my ears on this one, and it may actually be a good choice in the current spectrum of vi piano's.


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## S4410 (Dec 2, 2016)

A good pianist can make a mediocre piano sample libary shine.For years i was playing with my Yamaha S90ES keyboard.Now that's part of Halionsonic SE i tend to use it also.I also use Pianoteq when i m short of memory.My go to piano nowadays is Soniccouture's Hammersmith Pro and UnaCorda for experimental.


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## tack (Dec 2, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Have tried the Pianoteq demo recently: and so far this is not for me. too plasticky sounding.


Plastic sounding is my problem with Pianoteq too. Especially the D4. For me the only one I can really stomach is the Bluethner, which actually I find quite passable, and is my regular practice VSTi. Impossible to beat the playability except to go to the real thing, IMO.

So my advice for those demoing Pianoteq is not to forget trying the Bluethner.


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## Morodiene (Dec 2, 2016)

DennisL said:


> Hello everyone..
> 
> As the title says im looking for the best of the best piano library out there.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure there's no round robins for piano... not sure what that would replicate anyways.

Galaxy Vintage D sounds really nice and warm, some like Garritan CFX (if you like the lighter Yamaha sound). Personally, I own TrueKeys American which is also warmer (and what I prefer). I'm not a fan of Pianoteq, although the Grotrian addon when fiddled around with can sound nice.


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## tack (Dec 2, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Pretty sure there's no round robins for piano... not sure what that would replicate anyways.


Some have, for example HZP. It's just multiple samples per note velocity range / mic perspective to provide more variation.


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## Christof (Dec 2, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Hi Christoff: if you are willing to answer, can you say something about your experience when using it in a mix or with other instruments? Does it stay a piano, or do you need to use various tricks to keep it intact in a mix?
> 
> I have my ears on this one, and it may actually be a good choice in the current spectrum of vi piano's.


If you talk about Keyscape, yes, grab it.They did a big variety of presets for the C7 grand, from Rock to Cinematic, everything, and it is tweakable.


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## maxime77 (Dec 2, 2016)

You definitely want to go check the Imperfect Samples ones, I am thinking about the White Baby and the Steinway & Sons. Otherwise, the Piano in Blue remains one of my favourites


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## Cecco (Dec 2, 2016)

I use Cinesamples Piano in Blue, Imperfect Samples Fazioli and Ivory II. All very good pianos, but very different. 

This one lately caught my attention:
https://www.bechstein-digital.com

Anyone had experience and opinions on it?


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## mac88104 (Dec 2, 2016)

Try also the VILabs Ravenscroft 275. It sounds so real.


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## ohernie (Dec 2, 2016)

DennisL said:


> Yeah, thats what i wanna go for -> piano lib, that i can use for *every *score.. From soft to big epic.. Im also not too experienced when it comes to tell the difference between the piano sound.. if its used for jazz, classical, big epic doesnt matter, just wanna have the feeling im playing a real Piano when i sit down and play my midi keyboard



First of all, there isn't a real piano that will satisfy every need.
Second, with the current state of the art, pretty much all VI pianos sound like real grand pianos.
Third, if you can't tell the difference, what difference does it make?
Fourth, there are a gazillion "best piano" threads on this forum. Feel free to look them up.


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## Ron Kords (Dec 2, 2016)

So many choices it's a bit baffling. I got the ravenscroft 275 in the end as it's relatively fresh 'on the scene' and not completely rinsed. I like it and it's solid across all styles but I'm not blown away. Feels and sounds like a Yamaha to me....never were my favourite. 

I keep meaning to get the Malmjo....not a workhorse like the 275 but sounds lovely and organic...

At the end of the day, it may be pretty hard to go wrong with a sensibly priced (> £100) piano lib....??


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 2, 2016)

S4410 said:


> A good pianist can make a mediocre piano sample libary shine.



That's a really noble and optimistic statement because I'm here to tell you that I can't.

Keyscape based on what you get versus the price of a single piano library


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## Ron Kords (Dec 2, 2016)

Christof said:


> You could also ask for the best music out there
> Good luck!
> 
> But seriously, Keyscape is pretty amazing and inspiring, and features much more that only a C7.
> ...


Great keyboard is a must. Good shout!!


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## Mike Fox (Dec 2, 2016)

I love the Fazioli and Steinway from Imperfect Samples.


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## S4410 (Dec 2, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> That's a really noble and optimistic statement because I'm here to tell you that I can't.


Sorry,but i disagree..Any piano library won't make your track sound convincing if your playing technique (and your midi keyboard) are not equally good. Nowadays we have the privilege to have great affordable tools, like most of the recommendations in this topic.


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## chasmanian (Dec 2, 2016)

I really like Garritan CFX.
That said, it works fine for me in standalone.
In Reaper, no good. Lots of clicks.
Garritan MakeMusic is trying to fix the problem. Am very hopeful that they will be able to.


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 3, 2016)

S4410 said:


> Sorry,but i disagree..Any piano library won't make your track sound convincing if your playing technique (and your midi keyboard) are not equally good. Nowadays we have the privilege to have great affordable tools, like most of the recommendations in this topic.



I think the Baron was being self-deprecating rather than disagreeing with you....


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## ag75 (Dec 3, 2016)

I say this every time this topic comes up but I find piano in blue to be so inspiring. I use it for sketching and it always lives on my laptop. Love the sound so much.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 3, 2016)

S4410 said:


> Sorry,but i disagree..Any piano library won't make your track sound convincing if your playing technique (and your midi keyboard) are not equally good. Nowadays we have the privilege to have great affordable tools, like most of the recommendations in this topic.



Are trying to tell me my playing technique is no good?


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## DSmolken (Dec 3, 2016)

Yeah, the Bluethner is definitely the favorite Pianoteq piano of my "real pianist" friend. Definitely look at it if you're considering Pianoteq. I actually use the Pleyel the most, but I'm no pianist and I mostly produce pop.


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## S4410 (Dec 3, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Are trying to tell me my playing technique is no good?


Oops ,sorry , i was actually talking about me


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## SoNowWhat? (Dec 3, 2016)

This is such a difficult one. So personal. 
I have had my eye on the Racenscroft for a little while but I'm not so sure anymore. Shoot me down in flames but, I don't mind The Grandeur from Komplete 10 (if you have it, don't overlook it). I also, have the donation ware soft piano from Spitfire and love it (the full felt piano library may be even better, I don't know) and the free "Piano in 162" from Ivy Audio is perhaps worth a look. All depends on what you need I guess. Horses for courses and I guess we are lucky to have so many choices. I'm definitely keeping my eye on Keyscapes but it's not a priority for me right now.


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## tack (Dec 3, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Shoot me down in flames but, I don't mind The Grandeur from Komplete 10


I agree it's worth looking at. It's made by the same folks who did Vintage D. It's got all the same good playability qualities of Vintage D as a result - - and even some of the same bugs, telling me the engine was probably squarely lifted.

Personally I find The Grandeur a bit too sterile and lifeless and significantly prefer the warm character of Vintage D. But actually if I want an ethereal piano drenched in reverb I find The Grandeur works pretty well for that as its brightness helps it cut through more. But then if it's drenched in reverb, the playability advantages of a library are much less important.


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## JohnG (Dec 3, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> The difficulty I experience with piano libs is that many sound good,....on their own.... but once you use it in a mix or with some other instruments they become thin sounding and you need all kinds of FX or mix tricks to pump up the sound.




I think this is a key (!!) issue. I must have a dozen pianos but many of them fail this test.


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## ComposerWannabe (Dec 3, 2016)

Anyone Pearl Concert Grand? It's amazing.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 3, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I think this is a key (!!) issue. I must have a dozen pianos but many of them fail this test.


Haha! Good sense of humor John.
Btw: do you mean the black or the white key's, they are different you know .....

So apperently I am not the only one experiencing that phenomena.

Which vi piano's have not failed this test in your experience?
To see if you use some that I have not yet come in kontakt(!) with.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 3, 2016)

tack said:


> Vintage D


Hi Tack,
Thanks for your earlier comments, but which brand or dev is the Vintage D you keep referring to?


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## tack (Dec 3, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Thanks for your earlier comments, but which brand or dev is the Vintage D you keep referring to?


It's made by http://www.galaxy-instruments.com/vintage-d.html (Galaxy Instruments).


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## Scamper (Dec 3, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Hi Tack,
> Thanks for your earlier comments, but which brand or dev is the Vintage D you keep referring to?


I'm pretty sure it's "Galaxy Instruments".
http://www.galaxy-instruments.com/vintage-d.html

I really got into NI Komplete a generation too early, missing The Grandeur or The Gentleman now. The older NI pianos seem rather bad to me.


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## tack (Dec 3, 2016)

ComposerWannabe said:


> Anyone Pearl Concert Grand? It's amazing.


I have some issues with it. The developer, Impact Soundworks, is pretty awesome though. 

The length of that video is probably off-putting (I need to work on my rambling), but the tl;dr version is that the recording quality has some issues (several dodgy samples, some with unmanageable air buildup at lower dynamics) and the playability is poor. But all that is just my opinion, and there's also some things to like about it.


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## ComposerWannabe (Dec 3, 2016)

tack said:


> I have some issues with it. The developer, Impact Soundworks, is pretty awesome though.
> 
> The length of that video is probably off-putting (I need to work on my rambling), but the tl;dr version is that the recording quality has some issues (several dodgy samples, some with unmanageable air buildup at lower dynamics) and the playability is poor. But all that is just my opinion, and there's also some things to like about it.


You have to increase the dynamic response that's for sure. Otherwise I can't get any PPP.


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## lp59burst (Dec 3, 2016)

Cecco said:


> I use Cinesamples Piano in Blue, Imperfect Samples Fazioli and Ivory II. All very good pianos, but very different.
> 
> This one lately caught my attention:
> https://www.bechstein-digital.com
> ...


I've not tried this yet but the walk-throughs and whatnot are really very interesting... But, at $225 US, I'd like to see more "_real-world_" demos and reviews. I guess it's just a bit too new for that.

I really, really, really, wish more companies would make available trail/demo versions of their products.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 3, 2016)

S4410 said:


> Oops ,sorry , i was actually talking about me



Oh OK. Because if you're telling my technique is no good, I can easily change it.


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## wpc982 (Dec 3, 2016)

Piano seems pretty easy, but reading this thread, maybe not. I like the "Grandeur" from NI, its defaults seem pretty much what I expect from the sound of a good piano, and some customization is not too difficult.


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## Jediwario1 (Dec 3, 2016)

I've tried many virtual pianos but for some reason I keep coming back to the Grandeur, it's really nice to play. I've got a really nice preset for it which I've tweaked over the past year. It's a very dry piano so add a nice room reverb to it (LX480 in my case).


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## C-Wave (Dec 3, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I think this is a key (!!) issue. I must have a dozen pianos but many of them fail this test.


Joking aside, I too am interested in finding which ones can cut easily thru the mix.


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## Lode_Runner (Dec 3, 2016)

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know what make and model of pianos were sampled for the Grandeur, the Maverick and the Gentleman?


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## cAudio (Dec 3, 2016)

Lode_Runner said:


> Slightly off topic, but does anyone know what make and model of pianos were sampled for the Grandeur, the Maverick and the Gentleman?


Some info about those here:
http://www.galaxy-instruments.com/dpc.html


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## Fleer (Dec 3, 2016)

ComposerWannabe said:


> Anyone Pearl Concert Grand? It's amazing.


Well I absolutely love it. I have many piano libs, from ProductionVoices over EastWest, SoundIron, Garritan, CineSamples, and most of Sampletekk, to Spectrasonics' Keyscape. But my two favorites are Wavesfactory Mercury and ImpactSoundworks Pearl Grand. They just continue to sweep me away. And that's a major thing with music.


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## Lode_Runner (Dec 3, 2016)

cAudio said:


> Some info about those here:
> http://www.galaxy-instruments.com/dpc.html


Thanks cAudio. It looks like they've done a lot more with the marketing since I last checked their website: I don't remember them being called the Definitive Piano Collection before. There's still no info in the text, but the photos have now answered my question: The Grandeur = Steinway (not sure if B or D...), The Maverick = Bechstein (1905 custom build), The Gentleman = Bechstein upright (1908).

I wonder what the differences are between the Steinways in DPC, Galaxy 2 and Vintage D? I'm guessing a lot comes down to different recording spaces and the varying ages (and differences in build) of the pianos.


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## Fleer (Dec 3, 2016)

AFAIK they indeed made the Definitive Collection pianos in NI Komplete 10 Ultimate. I quite like them, particularly that Maverick.


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## cAudio (Dec 3, 2016)

Lode_Runner said:


> The Grandeur = Steinway (not sure if B or D...)



It's recorded here, so I assume its a Steinway D:

http://www.fattoriamusica.de/pages/studio-a.php


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## jononotbono (Dec 3, 2016)

I just bought the 8Dio 1901 Upright and really like it. I also own the HZP but need another SSD before I can download it. I also like Piano in Blue but it's not great for everything. Sound Iron Emotional Piano will be my next Piano buy. Then who knows. Probably all of them in existence and still lust after a real one as per usual.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 3, 2016)

cAudio said:


> It's recorded here, so I assume its a Steinway D:
> 
> http://www.fattoriamusica.de/pages/studio-a.php


well, that is a studio with the right setting, design and atmosphere in my view. Not all equipment and overly colourful distracting stuff.
Very nice residence!


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## chopin4525 (Dec 3, 2016)

Lode_Runner said:


> Thanks cAudio. It looks like they've done a lot more with the marketing since I last checked their website: I don't remember them being called the Definitive Piano Collection before. There's still no info in the text, but the photos have now answered my question: The Grandeur = Steinway (not sure if B or D...), The Maverick = Bechstein (1905 custom build), The Gentleman = Bechstein upright (1908).
> 
> I wonder what the differences are between the Steinways in DPC, Galaxy 2 and Vintage D? I'm guessing a lot comes down to different recording spaces and the varying ages (and differences in build) of the pianos.


The main difference is related to the way those pianos were recorded, where and how. They are all Steinway D.
The Steinway in Galaxy II pianos has less layers (10) and releases. It is very clean sounding and it also comes with a 5.1 surround patch which is gorgeous.
The Steinway Vintage D was recorded at Bauer Studios. It is an old piano and they used vintage mics through vintage preamps during the recording. You get more layers and releases compared to the previous one (13). The beauty of this piano is the fact that it is versatile and can handle pretty much anything from classical to jazz or modern stuff.
The Grandeur brings up the game with even more layers (18), more releases and more sustain samples. Even if it may sound a little bit sterile compared to the previous one, this is a more detailed virtual copy of the piano, and it shows particularly on pieces with a very wide dynamic range.
The point with these pianos that must be underlined is the fact that they are recorded very close and this might not suit everybody's taste.


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## wpc982 (Dec 3, 2016)

I'm sure this is obvious to most people, but just as there are some differences between different manufacturers of pianos, there are great differences even between individual pianos of the same make and model. Long ago one of my brief jobs was as a piano salesman in a shop that sold Steinways and other makes -- you could go through the store room and the display room and play many pianos, and they all were different. You couldn't even say one was the best for all tastes, though there were a few that everyone seemed to agree were among the better examples of that make and model. This is somewhat independent of tuning and voicing, though both of those processes can change a piano, too. And then there's room, and recording style ... etc, etc.


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## bap_la_so_1 (Dec 3, 2016)

What do you guys think about the new Bechstein digital - piano??? Im intrigued by the specs.
Honestly, i prefer the sound of the C7, from Impact Soundworks, but it takes too much ram lol, and there are not much dynamic layers compared to Bechstein


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## logburner (Dec 3, 2016)

I was about to pull the trigger on Wavesfactory's Mercury the Fazioli, but also intrigued by the new Bechstein too.

The thing is that this piano library is probably the most beautiful sounding one yet there aren't enough official or user demos online.

At this time being, I'm not producing but just practicing piano and more than happy with Imperfect Fazioli for it. It's just that such curiosity is dragging me here and there.


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## lp59burst (Dec 4, 2016)

bap_la_so_1 said:


> What do you guys think about the new Bechstein digital - piano??? Im intrigued by the specs.
> Honestly, i prefer the sound of the C7, from Impact Soundworks, but it takes too much ram lol, and there are not much dynamic layers compared to Bechstein



There's another thread starting to get some attention regarding the Bechstein product. *ChristianM* has posted a demo and may be doing another soon...

_http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ped-its-own-software-piano-for-kontakt.56262/_


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## Allen Constantine (Dec 4, 2016)

There are tons of choices out there. In my honest opinion, I'd go for a mixture between EW and 8Dio!


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## ComposerWannabe (Dec 4, 2016)

Do all other Best Service Galaxy Pianos share Vintage D's playability?


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## slobajudge (Dec 5, 2016)

From my experience with almost all Pianos VST,for solo playing the most playable, the best sounding and without issues are Pianoteq, VSL Vienna imperial, CFX Garritan, Ravenscroft, Ivory II German/American, Galaxy Vintage D and for upright Fluffy My piano (in no particular order). Pick one of this, try another between them. Forget others,they have some kind of problems with velocity, CPU, etc, except you need piano for movies or specific sound in the back. Run away from HZ piano, too much noise, reverbe inside samples, bad playability.


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## SBK (Dec 5, 2016)

I like Production Voices pianos!


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 5, 2016)

So far, I am finding Keyscape the best piano library for mixing and playing into just about anything. The interface is brilliant. The reverb and compression work very well and all in all this is a go to piano library.


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## Morodiene (Dec 5, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Then who knows. Probably all of them in existence and still lust after a real one as per usual.


Nothing beats the real thing!


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## jononotbono (Dec 5, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Nothing beats the real thing!




Yeah you're not wrong. Providsing it isn't just a bad Piano (which many are). I used to play Piano when I was younger. Got to Grade 6 Classical (and understood none of the theory) when I was 14 but found the Electric Guitar and went down that dark path of Rock n Roll! 

I used to Practise on an incredible Grand Piano in All Saints Church Ryde (Isle of Wight). Can't remember the Brand but it was inspiring to play in there. I've wanted a real Grand ever since but the time is not right yet. I need a bigger Studio, Bigger wallet and need to re-learn how to actually play the Piano again rather than just tickle the Ivories.


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 5, 2016)

All pianos are good, especially the bad ones.

I was classically trained from the age of 7, but when I was 14, someone gave me an copy of Jerry Lee Lewis's Jambalaya. (His first album). I was then led astray 

Get an old wreck of a piano and put pins in the hammers. Then see how much boogie boogie you can play before the pins fall out. And repeat. Thats a real bad piano - but in a good way.

(I did learn, however, not to do Glissando's on a piano where some of the old ivory key tops are missing. It hurts quite a lot, and can be messy.)


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## chasmanian (Dec 5, 2016)

Have just rediscovered the joy of Ivory American concert D.
Love it!!!!
Highly recommend.


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## DervishCapkiner (Dec 5, 2016)

Personally ( and I'm not sure if I'll get slated for this ) but I like to use the NORD library as they're always bringing new ones out for free! The mellow upright is a favourite of mine and the newer velvet grand is a brilliant all-rounder. If you have one of the keyboards with string resonance then you'll get the best quality pianos .


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 5, 2016)

DervishCapkiner said:


> Personally ( and I'm not sure if I'll get slated for this ) but I like to use the NORD library as they're always bringing new ones out for free! The mellow upright is a favourite of mine and the newer velvet grand is a brilliant all-rounder. If you have one of the keyboards with string resonance then you'll get the best quality pianos .



Huge Nord fan here. I have a Stage 2 EX, and although the keybed is not the best, there's something about the way it plays that just clicks with me. When I bought it, I could have had a Kronos 88 for pretty much the same money, but the Nord felt and played much more like a musical instrument - or at least to me it did.


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## DervishCapkiner (Dec 5, 2016)

Sold my Kronos76 for a Nord electro 5hp . Best choice I ever made as far as piano is concerned. Although the RH3 keybed is better on the Korg - everything else , especially the piano sounds are much, much better and so usable all round for live to and kind of music for film, tv and commercials....


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## jononotbono (Dec 5, 2016)

mikeybabes said:


> All pianos are good, especially the bad ones.



I would usually agree (Context etc) but let's be honest. A bad Piano, no matter how you manage to shoe-horn one into your life, is a decision. A decision... tarnished in Dog's Brown.


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## Fleer (Dec 5, 2016)

That new Bechstein Digital sounds very close to ... a real Bechstein, one of the finest grands ever made, together with Fazioli and Blüthner. Wish I had all three 'chez moi'.


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## peksi (Dec 6, 2016)

I did my research on pianos and instead of finding as realistic piano as possible i wanted as mix ready as possible. That is why I went with HZP. 

I am not a good live piano player so dont care about playability and i have no interest in trying to create big screen sound from real piano with my mixing skills (i tried and never liked the result). I want to stay on the flow, in the comfort zone of bleeding my heart out to notes minimizing any obstacles I may hit on my flow, such as mixing.

So my 2 cents on the discussion would be to know if you value playability and if you want it to sound like real piano or like a piano as you hear it in the songs you listen. That opens up different choices.


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## keepforest (Dec 6, 2016)

In my opinion, pretty old *Fazioli *by *Imperfect Samples*:


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## scoringdreams (Dec 6, 2016)

Try the Garritan CFX Concert Grand! It has a really *clean sound* if you are going for that and also a *little wet in reverb* IMO. Turn up the dynamic settings to make it sing!

And half-pedaling support is coming out soon (someone did mention it on this forum).


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## muk (Dec 6, 2016)

scoringdreams said:


> And half-pedaling support is coming out soon



The update was released in november, so you can download it from their product update page.


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## ComposerWannabe (Dec 6, 2016)

ComposerWannabe said:


> Do all other Best Service Galaxy Pianos share Vintage D's playability?


I would like to ask this question once again as I didn't get any answers.

I know their scripting is similar. So do they have any real difference in playability? As in Baby Grand share Vintage D's playability?


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## ComposerWannabe (Dec 6, 2016)

keepforest said:


> In my opinion, pretty old *Fazioli *by *Imperfect Samples*:



I remember this one getting bashed pretty heavily because of playability issues. While not taking anything from it by sound department.


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## scoringdreams (Dec 6, 2016)

muk said:


> The update was released in november, so you can download it from their product update page.



Thanks for the update! I must have been too busy to be aware of it!


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## keepforest (Dec 6, 2016)

ComposerWannabe said:


> I remember this one getting bashed pretty heavily because of playability issues. While not taking anything from it by sound department.



What issues? Very strange just becuase i use it in every projects without any problems for years.


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## Fleer (Dec 6, 2016)

Keyboards magazine review of Bechstein Digital: 
“First and foremost, it achieves a direct first place against all its followers (…) To-date, I wasn’t a big fan of sample libraries. That has just changed with the publication of the Bechstein “Digital Grand Library” for Kontakt. It all sounds really splendid and can also be played very authentically.“
(Gerald Nahrgang)


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## creativeforge (Feb 28, 2017)

KeyboardMag review of the Hans Zimmer Piano contains an important point the OP was inquiring about - versatility. Not sure if he made a purchase yet, but I'll share this:

QUOTE: "The source piano for this Kontakt Player-based instrument is a Steinway D that resides in AIR Studios, London. It’s long been a favorite of composer Zimmer for scoring sessions and simply playing for enjoyment. Not only does the virtual version offer four mic positions—from very close to a position intended for use in rear surround channels—but you get multiple options for which mics occupy each of those positions.

The resulting tonal variety is such that I could use HZ Piano for whatever musical mood a song required, whereas before I would have been asking myself which of my libraries was right for the job. That this single piano can behave like a dozen or more is a testament to what’s possible when the developers really know their recording techniques.

Plus, since all that variety is “baked in,” I found myself reaching for EQ and effects barely at all, whether I wanted the piano to cut through a mix or snuggle down into it."

Personally, as an acoustic piano player, former piano tuner, this is the first piano library I've been dreaming about since Ivory first came out (still undecided with Bechstein). An historical landmark. Some day I will upgrade my gear and get me a HZP.

http://www.keyboardmag.com/virtual-instruments/1185/review-spitfire-audio-hans-zimmer-piano/57493


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## Ultraxenon (Feb 28, 2017)

I like the tone in 8dio 1990 Grand and it also feels pretty good when playing . I also use Giant on some cinematic scores


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## Flaneurette (Feb 28, 2017)

My favorite is still the Imperfect Samples Fazioli. I like the intimate nature of the piano. A Fazioli is really one of a kind. Short demo I made a moment ago, recorded dry, default settings and without pedal:



I also enjoy the August Foerster from Native Instruments. Those two are the only ones I use on a daily basis. I also like the PMI/Sampletekk Bösendorfer 290, but since it is dated I wish it was sampled more deeply.

My favorite brands:

1. Fazioli
2. Bösendorfer
3. August Foerster

I really dislike Steinways. Always have! not sure why, taste, sound... I don't know. The times when I sat behind a Steinway in real life, creativity just vanished. Whereas a Bösendorfer would open up my soul. Never had the opportunity to sit behind a Fazioli, but I think I would sell (half of) my soul for one.


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## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2017)

I couldn't love the HZP any more if I tried.


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## Flaneurette (Feb 28, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I couldn't love the HZP any more if I tried.


Would love to try it out!


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## Scamper (Feb 28, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> My favorite is still the Imperfect Samples Fazioli. I like the intimate nature of the piano. A Fazioli is really one of a kind. Short demo I made a moment ago, recorded dry, default settings and without pedal:




Which version of the Fazioli library is that?


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## Flaneurette (Feb 28, 2017)

Scamper said:


> Which version of the Fazioli library is that?



Fazioli Grand (Basic) P1 08 RR (Player 1 perspective).

The default patch: Round Robin _off_, Hollywood _off_.


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## Scamper (Feb 28, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> Fazioli Grand (Basic) P1 08 RR (Player 1 perspective).


Basic, okay. I was thinking about getting this, since it's relatively affordable, but I wasn't quite sure about only 8 dynamic layers. It will probably do well enough.


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## Flaneurette (Feb 28, 2017)

Scamper said:


> Basic, okay. I was thinking about getting this, since it's relatively affordable, but I wasn't quite sure about only 8 dynamic layers. It will probably do well enough.



Yes, and you can always upgrade. They have upgrade packages from basic to pro, and pro to extreme.  I'll probably upgrade to pro one day.


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## Sonically Real (Feb 28, 2017)

to me there's no best piano each have they're uses
I you can layer and add body or add any tone with impulses 
Mixing techniques comes a long way also
For realistic passages, nothing better than the reel deal imo


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## chapbot (Mar 1, 2017)

I was a piano proficiency in college who's now recording pop music. I'm picky about my piano vsts and every year I do a scan of the latest to see if I like anything. Here are some observations:

1. If possible download a working demo you can actually test. I hate spending $199 on a piano VST that sounded amazing on their website, only to find it just doesn't "feel" right. I've lost a LOT of money on pianos I'll never use. For instance, I bought the Chocolate Pianos a few months ago when they were on special but I won't use them because I don't think they feel just right. They're not really that bad and I've bought worse, it's just my piano touch pickyness kicking in. I don't mind the purchase because I have wanted an upright and one came with the deal.

2. If no downloadable demo is available, try to find an audio demo that has the raw, unprocessed piano sample. The developer's website might have a great sounding demo drenched in reverb, but somebody may have reviewed it on YouTube as they play it live, straight out of their DAW.

3. Buy a piano that matches your style. Some pianos sound distant (probably sampled on a soundstage) and are best for movie scores, others are closely mic'd and sound better for pop music.

So here's what I'm using now:

#1 True Keys American Grand: My absolute favorite piano VST I've ever used. It shows up in 80% of my tracks. It sounds and plays perfectly.

https://www.vilabsaudio.com/true-keys-american-grand

#2 True Keys Ravenscroft: I had purchased this before the American and really liked it, but once I discovered the American I use it more and think it sounds richer. However, I use the Ravenscroft (being a little thinner/brighter) for more dense pop tracks with lots going on (electric guitars, etc.) as it cuts through this type of mix better than the American. I use American on all my piano-centric pop tracks.

https://www.vilabsaudio.com/Ravenscroft-By-VI-Labs

#3 Fluffy Scoring Piano: This piano was also on special a few months ago. Heard it, loved it, downloaded it, loved it. Great sound and touch. I won't use this in my typical pop tracks, I'll save it for a tender piano ballad or movie score.

http://fluffyaudio.com/shop/scoringpiano/


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 2, 2017)

chapbot said:


> I was a piano proficiency in college who's now recording pop music. I'm picky about my piano vsts and every year I do a scan of the latest to see if I like anything. Here are some observations:
> 
> 1. If possible download a working demo you can actually test. I hate spending $199 on a piano VST that sounded amazing on their website, only to find it just doesn't "feel" right. I've lost a LOT of money on pianos I'll never use. For instance, I bought the Chocolate Pianos a few months ago when they were on special but I won't use them because I don't think they feel just right. They're not really that bad and I've bought worse, it's just my piano touch pickyness kicking in. I don't mind the purchase because I have wanted an upright and one came with the deal.
> 
> ...


I picked up the true keys bundle (American, German and Italian) on special offer recently and right now my favourite is the German (Bechstein). Really love playing it. The American is also lovely and would probably sit in a mix better. Right now though I'm playing solo mostly with them and prefer the German. The Italian (Fazioli) is also great, just using it less.


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## Fleer (Mar 2, 2017)

Then you have to try the Bechstein Digital Grand. I love the Bechstein in TrueKeys as well, but that Digital Grand is the real McCoy.


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 2, 2017)

Fleer said:


> Then you have to try the Bechstein Digital Grand. I love the Bechstein in TrueKeys as well, but that Digital Grand is the real McCoy.


Yes. I know, I know. I fear I am developing an unhealthy obsession with Bechstein grands. It is now my dessert island piano (logistics be damned!).


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## woodslanding (Apr 1, 2017)

Well, I just did a gig accompanying a 100th anniversary screening of Charlie Chaplin's 'The Immigrant', and hearing 'the Grandeur' all by itself in that room over that very nice sound system, I decided I need a better piano sample for solo work. Actually, I feel that way every gig I play, but this one drove it home.

I have a 6-foot Schimmel at home. Regulated by one of the world's best piano techs (based on my informal assessment of several hundred pianos in various venues around the country.) I wish I could find a sample with 1/10th of its playability.

I have yet to see a demo of one of these pianos that shows actual dynamic range, esp from p-pppp. The samples I have just lose body at low velocities. I wonder if the original instruments are even capable of being played that softly.... I mean, I have to assume these world class pianos are properly set-up, (and played by competent pianists), but when I played the Boesendorfer at Mad Hatter, it certainly wasn't. Set-up correctly that is. I won't presume to judge the pianist  As another example, a nearby music school auditioned 13 Steinway B's all over the state before buying their favorite, and as far as I was concerned the regulation was crap. I couldn't control the bottom end of the dynamic at all.

Best piano I ever played is the 9-foot steinway at the performing arts center in Dillon, MT. 100 years old and just rebuilt. I suspect my tech did the voicing, based on the way it played...

I too wish you could get demo versions of more of these pianos. I use a casio action. People call it mushy, but I consider that a reasonable trade-off for fine-grained control of lower velocities. I'm quite happy with it, if I could just find a piano that complemented it!

The American series sounds nice in the demos. But the playing does not show real control of the dynamic range, IMHO. Especially the Ravel. C'mon, play it _quiet _already!

Just listened to the Chopin on the Bechstein page, and it's obvious the pianist is having trouble playing softly. Problem is, I can't tell if it's the sample or the controller...... nothing below p here. :( Okay, last note is pp.... It does seem to be a nice sounding piano, though.

You should hear that Chopin on the Schimmel--sounds like the wind from the hammers is making the strings vibrate.

cheers,
-e


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## tack (Apr 1, 2017)

woodslanding said:


> The samples I have just lose body at low velocities.


I know just what you mean. Galaxy Vintage D does ok here, in my opinion -- perhaps the best of all the sample-based pianos VIs I have -- but still isn't all that it might be. There are other libraries that have more velocity layers (sometimes all the way up to 127) but then they seem to miss the mark in other areas of playability and feel.

Have you tried Pianoteq? Since discovering the Bluethner model, I find that it's actually able to produce a sound I can stomach. (I can't cope with any of the other models -- not even the lauded Steinway B.) And playability is obviously unprecedented. It's stable and lean as hell, so I have to think it would also be great for live gigs.


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## woodslanding (Apr 1, 2017)

Okay, listening to the italian grand samples, and I'm hearing a lot more range.... they have a nice sparkle at the lower dynamics. Jordan's piece and the hungarian rhapsody both sound like they were actually fun to play!

Now I see the rhapsody has been played on the american as well..... don't like the pp on this piano quite as much, but it clearly does exist.

Based on the demos, the Fazioli wins hands down.


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## woodslanding (Apr 1, 2017)

Wow, Pianoteq has come a long way since I last heard it!

The PP on the Bluthner is nice... what little there is in the demos. I also like the Grotrian.

there is still the tiniest sense of 'plastic-ness' to the tone. Hard to define. And probably less significant than playability.

I've downloaded the demo. But it looks like you cannot load either of those instruments into the demo vst. :(


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## tack (Apr 1, 2017)

woodslanding said:


> But it looks like you cannot load either of those instruments into the demo vst. :(


Can't you? Under the "Other instruments (DEMO)" menu -- I thought Pianoteq gave _all _instruments a 20 minute demo (with some notes disabled)? I've certainly demoed the Bluethner and Model B in the past before buying them.

Edit: ohh, maybe you can only demo the add-on instruments if you already own Pianoteq. :(

If you have some MIDI you want me to run through the Bluethner to get a better sense of the softest dynamics, I'd be happy to.


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## sostenuto (Apr 1, 2017)

tack said:


> Can't you? Under the "Other instruments (DEMO)" menu -- I thought Pianoteq gave _all _instruments a 20 minute demo (with some notes disabled)? I've certainly demoed the Bluethner and Model B in the past before buying them.
> 
> Edit: ohh, maybe you can only demo the add-on instruments if you already own Pianoteq. :(
> 
> If you have some MIDI you want me to run through the Bluethner to get a better sense of the softest dynamics, I'd be happy to.



Hmmmm. Coming from a Grotrian Concert 225 and both Bluethner and Grotrian getting a _Demo_ workout here. But then I do not own any Pianoteq5 yet ....
Emotionally prefer Grotrian, but Bluethner seems better at high end so far.

Present IvoryII Italian remains fav against ___ OTS Rosewood Grand, NI Komplete10 range, AD Keys..


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## tack (Apr 1, 2017)

@woodslanding I've played a few bars of a Chopin nocturne with the Bluethner to give you an idea of the dynamics, which I rather exaggerated for purposes of the demonstration. The beginning was played with a very light touch. I do apologize for my playing: I'm not a very good player to begin with, let alone after a couple glasses of wine. 

https://helix.urandom.ca/public/pianoteq-bluethner-dynamics.mp3


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## woodslanding (Apr 1, 2017)

Had to dig around for Galaxy D demos--the demo section on their website seems to be down.

I like it better than the pianoteq instruments, at least listening soloed. It sounds really nice in the quiet passages, although not quite as nice as my Schimmel.


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## woodslanding (Apr 1, 2017)

>>>the dynamics, which I rather exaggerated for purposes of the demonstration.<<<

No Kidding  Almost spilled my drink!

So you really find the pianoteq more satisfying to play than the Galaxy D? I'd sure rather _listen_ to the latter....

Coming back to pianoteq after listening to samples, it really does sound.... simplified?? Well, I have the pianoteq demo, and I'll see how it feels.


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## tack (Apr 1, 2017)

woodslanding said:


> So you really find the pianoteq more satisfying to play than the Galaxy D? I'd sure rather _listen_ to the latter....


Yeah, there is much more of a connection with Pianoteq. It feels right under the fingers. As a purely detached listener I totally grok the criticisms -- especially before the Bluethner -- but when you sit down to play it, there is a responsiveness and touch that's unmatched.

Even as I played back the render of the Nocturne excerpt I began to notice something not _quite _right. It's something I am very easily able to overlook when it's under my fingers, but as a listener, all the usual criticisms come flooding back.

It's why I might choose not to mix Pianoteq down in a track. But as a practice piano, it's what I use. It just responds right. And in fairness I suspect most lay people wouldn't notice the difference.


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## Fleer (Apr 1, 2017)

As for Pianoteq, Blüthner and Grotrian all the way.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 1, 2017)

I hate all of my pianos again, and I don't like any demos I've heard, including the Pianoteqs. Vintage D is the least objectionable.

I hear dead spots in just about every piano sample other than my Art Vista VG-2, which doesn't have a lot of dynamic range, but at least it literally RINGS with the movement of air.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I hate all of my pianos again, and I don't like any demos I've heard, including the Pianoteqs. Vintage D is the least objectionable.
> 
> I hear dead spots in just about every piano sample other than my Art Vista VG-2, which doesn't have a lot of dynamic range, but at least it literally RINGS with the movement of air.



But i find it hard to make sit in a mix.


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## sostenuto (Apr 2, 2017)

Bah !! Lots of interesting, informative posts. So many parameters important to _specific applications_. So many sets of ears, listening venues (_maybe going back to headphones for a bit_), sound systems. 

Applause to providers offering real Demos. Don't mind serious crippling, but must play on MY system, in MY environment or 'no deal'. 

Wondering how many negative comments could be resolved with optimized settings ... 
Apologies for grumpy post, but must learn not to expect more than tons of data to digest.


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## woodslanding (May 4, 2017)

Well thanks, Tack, for suggesting the Vintage D. I really am happier with it than any of the other libraries I got. Plus it was on sale for $99. It seems warm and thick throughout it's range. I'm sure if you are used to Yamahas, it might not be bright enough, but I have plenty of samples like that....


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## creativeforge (May 4, 2017)

woodslanding said:


> Well thanks, Tack, for suggesting the Vintage D. I really am happier with it than any of the other libraries I got. Plus it was on sale for $99. It seems warm and thick throughout it's range. I'm sure if you are used to Yamahas, it might not be bright enough, but I have plenty of samples like that....



Thanks for the comment drawing my attention to it, enjoying the demos right now (on BestService.de).


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## CGR (May 12, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I hate all of my pianos again, and I don't like any demos I've heard, including the Pianoteqs. Vintage D is the least objectionable.
> 
> I hear dead spots in just about every piano sample other than my Art Vista VG-2, which doesn't have a lot of dynamic range, but at least it literally RINGS with the movement of air.


Yes, the seemingly never-ending search for a 'real' sampled piano! I have to admit that after purchasing nearly 50 sampled/virtual pianos, I finally gave in to temptation and bought the Art Vista Virtual Grand 3. Now we're talkin'! For anyone who has grown up on acoustic pianos like me, this is the one to get. I am fortunate to own a large upright and small grand piano (Richard Lipp & Sohns) both made in the golden era of piano manufacturing - the 1920's. The Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano is the closest I've experienced to that resonant, 3 dimensional sound that my acoustic pianos provide. And, like all real instruments, requires some skill and judicious engineering to sit in a mix, but the critical thing is that it has resonance and soul - much easier to subtract/EQ within your mixes than trying to chase something that isn't there in the first place.


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## Maxfabian (May 12, 2017)

I made a demo fro Art Vista`s Supergrand and I have to say I really like the tone of it. It has a warm and mystic sound. If it is the best, I don't know but it definitely has something. I really like the Ravenscroft 275 as well.

cheers!


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## keepitsimple (May 12, 2017)

I own: 

- Vintage D 
- The Grandeur
- Ravenscroft 275
- CFX Lite

Besides my old trusty Kronos pianos, the one that doesn't fail to inspire me when i play it is "The Grandeur". Something about it....


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## MaxOctane (May 12, 2017)

The new 8dio 1971 Estonia Grand is very nice.

https://8dio.com/instrument/1971-estonia-grand-piano-for-kontakt-vst-au-aax/


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## DSmolken (May 13, 2017)

Soviet piano. Interesting. I'm sorta on the lookout for a Soviet-era electric guitar that's in condition that's usable enough to sample. Though unlike those guitars, that piano isn't supposed to be basically lousy.


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## RobertPeetersPiano (May 13, 2017)

I still don't like Play, but the sound of EWQL Pianos is IMHO the best...


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