# Low RAM orchestral instruments?



## dzilizzi (Jun 16, 2018)

I travel a lot for work - the job that allows me to do my hobby - but my laptop setup only has 16GBs RAM. It is enough for most pop/rock songs, but I have been experimenting with orchestration and it crashes just with a partial orchestra loaded. 

So I'm thinking, are there any OK sounding orchestras with multiple articulations that won't crash? I can then import the midi into my home studio computer which can handle a larger orchestral template.

I'm trying to learn how to work with separate articulations rather than multi instruments. 

Thanks


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## aaronventure (Jun 16, 2018)

NotePerformer 3 is good-sounding orchestra. It's also decently balanced. You don't have to spend time and energy on MIDI programming, etc. You can just focus on composition. Then just export the MIDI from Sibelius. It's also $120 (unless you don't have Sibelius, then you have to get that, too). 

Adventure Brass is pretty light (800mb RAM total) and very playable. I figure Adventure Strings are as well. SWAM Woodwinds installation totals at less than 2GB if I recall correctly, and the RAM footprint is minimal. With these 3, you can break out the Adventure Strings patches like Tremolo, Pizz and Trills to total at 4 tracks per instrument section. 

The whole thing will give you a very playable template with 0 keyswitching. And you can play any articulations you want. The only downside is that, save for the woodwinds, you won't have any legato. But for sketching, it should be more than enough. It will be more expensive than NotePerformer 3, though.


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## SchnookyPants (Jun 16, 2018)

Here:

http://virtualplaying.com/

This is a great low-demand SFZ orchestra just released by member Paul Battersby. And it's totally free! I think it's terrific.

I, too was in search of a 'substitute' orchestra that would enable me to compose whilst at our summer cottage with my older laptop. This does the trick. Separate orchestral sections, various articulations, etc.

Paul has done an excellent job.


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## thov72 (Jun 16, 2018)

https://redroomaudio.com/product/palette-primary-colors/


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## dzilizzi (Jun 16, 2018)

Thank you everyone, these are great suggestions. I'll probably try the free ones first. Note Performer sounds good, but I don't have Sibelius. That is probably the next thing I need to get, a notation program. :D


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 16, 2018)

VSL Special Edition are probably the best bang for the buck here. Especially when paired with MIRx. Very good sound while quite easy on the ressources.


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## MarcusD (Jun 16, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> I travel a lot for work - the job that allows me to do my hobby - but my laptop setup only has 16GBs RAM. It is enough for most pop/rock songs, but I have been experimenting with orchestration and it crashes just with a partial orchestra loaded.
> 
> So I'm thinking, are there any OK sounding orchestras with multiple articulations that won't crash? I can then import the midi into my home studio computer which can handle a larger orchestral template.
> 
> ...



Orchestral Tools - Inspire. Awesome sound, really low footprint.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 16, 2018)

I have VSL SE Winds and Percussion, unfortunately, only the percussion is loaded on this. Downloading is taking forever LOL, hotel internet really sucks. I may need to check into some of the other sections. I think they are on sale this month. I need to update my system when I get home. 

I look at Orchestral Tools stuff, but they are pretty pricey. Especially since I just got Hollywood Orchestra Diamond. 

Thanks for all the suggestions!


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## enyawg (Jun 17, 2018)

For stings the 8DIO Agitato Sordino Strings was a nice cheap investment and small footprint at $55 & sounds great. Not sure if it’s still on special. Also the Kirk Hunter Diamond Symphony Orchestra did me well on a trip to Vietnam recently on my 16GB Mac Book Pro.
I would also recommend Adventure Brass and VSL SE.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 17, 2018)

Because it is still on sale and I owned enough of it to make it not too bad of a price, I picked up VSL SE 1 Bundle. I think there are enough articulations to keep me going until I get home. I had to leave the computer running all night to download it all, but it did download, so I am happy. I'd been thinking about getting it for a while, but was going to wait after getting Hollywood Diamond. 

I have most of 8Dio strings. I just tend to forget about them because I have Hollywood Gold and 8Dio is not a library instrument. So I have to go to the files to load it. The library instruments tend to get used more than the nonlibrary ones.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 18, 2018)

EW Symphonic Orchestra, I used to write a ton of stuff with only 4GB Ram.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 18, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> EW Symphonic Orchestra, I used to write a ton of stuff with only 4GB Ram.


Were you using just the gold? I was going between the SO platinum plus and the HO Diamond and ended up getting the HO Diamond. But I was thinking next big sale about getting the SO gold for my laptop. 

I am not sure if it is just my computer, but I could load about 70 instances of VSL instruments with no issue, but the 3rd Kontakt froze everything. I didn't try the Play library yet.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 18, 2018)

It was SO Gold.


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## GtrString (Jun 18, 2018)

ProjectSam Symphobia's are pretty easy on CPU. I have no issues on a 16ram Mac Mini, but I have it on a SSD. That makes all the difference.


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## storyteller (Jun 18, 2018)

With 16gb, i think you’d find better value in using a disabled template rather than sacrificing sample quality/versatility. In many cases you could probably work with your primary arts in each section, then freeze those tracks and move on to another section.

Back in the day, GPO and EWQL Silver were made for this purpose. But times have changed quite a bit. I think their marketing was pitch was that the full library could be loaded in either 2GB or 4GB of ram...


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## dzilizzi (Jun 18, 2018)

Actually, I did very well with VSL SE 1 Bundle. I'm missing a few articulations, but it covers the main ones without a problem. 

Unless you disable everything before loading the template from the other computer? It crashes. Well, Cubase 8 froze. Pro Tools 12 informed me I needed more RAM.


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## dsblais (Jun 19, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> Actually, I did very well with VSL SE 1 Bundle. I'm missing a few articulations, but it covers the main ones without a problem.
> 
> Unless you disable everything before loading the template from the other computer? It crashes. Well, Cubase 8 froze. Pro Tools 12 informed me I needed more RAM.



VSL has seemed the lightest to me. I love the OT stuff, but it isn't as light. EWHO seems somewhere in the middle, but not on the same level sonically or in terms of playability, in my humble opinion. HALion Symphonic Orchestra is another very lightweight and reasonably complete option.


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## JohnG (Jun 19, 2018)

I wrote this in a separate place, but it is relevant:

"That is interesting. I think he [Kieth Johnson] was the engineer for the original EWQLSO, which in one interesting respect has yet to be surpassed. That aspect is that, whenever I used EWQLSO as my mockup basis, I was never "surprised" by the live recording that replaced it. Somehow those mockups produced unerringly accurate predictions of blend, the level of "strain" you hear in the performance (like the brass).

"I do think that some of the more recent libraries sound better if you are trying to use them for the final version -- not replacing the fake orchestra with real players -- but Mr. Johnson captured some very good stuff there if you're using it as a sketching tool for music that will be performed live."


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## dcoscina (Jun 19, 2018)

Berlin Orchestra Inspire is reasonably light and has some legatos. But it doesn't have the full range of the orchestra in traditional terms. But most of the doublings are standard and I like the sound of it. 

CineSamples CineOrch lite is nice and you can subdivide out each section with a little modest tweaking. I have a template set up for that on my laptop and it's very light. No legatos and only long/short arts. Strings have long, short and pizz. I often use its percussion and timp even in larger compositions because the sound is terrific.


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## robgb (Jun 19, 2018)

Kirk Hunter's Virtuoso Ensembles. Sounds great, low CPU demands, full orchestra, and separate sections if you want.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 19, 2018)

The problem I had was I have a template with separate articulations on my studio computer that I've been playing with. I have a bunch of lighter cpu/RAM orchestras, but they are full sections and ensembles. I was hoping to be able to transfer the template as is, rather than have to rework it. It was more an exercise in trying to write in parts if that makes sense.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 19, 2018)

robgb said:


> Kirk Hunter's Virtuoso Ensembles. Sounds great, low CPU demands, full orchestra, and separate sections if you want.


I have Kirk Hunter. I was having problems with Kontakt for some reason. Once I loaded about 10 instances, I started having issues. Not sure why.


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## robgb (Jun 19, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> I have Kirk Hunter. I was having problems with Kontakt for some reason. Once I loaded about 10 instances, I started having issues. Not sure why.


What DAW are you using? You might look for a DAW with very low CPU usage. Alternatively, if you load KH Virtuoso Ensembles in ensemble mode, you'll only need a few instances of Kontakt and can use key switches.


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## JohnG (Jun 19, 2018)

With some libraries, especially older ones, raw samples may be shared between articulations. Accordingly, it's important to group like instruments so the RAM doesn't get soaked up more than once.

To implement that, load all the "sustained" violin sounds (legato, sus, vibrato etc.) into a single instance of Kontakt. Do the same for violin II, viola, etc. Assign each patch its own midi channel.

If patches _don't_ share samples, it might not help, but it would have one additional benefit -- every instance of Kontakt is going to draw at least some resources.

Also, at the risk of stating the obvious, if you're using the library as a mobile sketch pad anyway, you can skip "extras" like violin II and Bartok pizz.

Finally, if you have an SSD, you can try reducing the preload buffer in Kontakt, but you may already have done that.

Good luck!

John


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## dzilizzi (Jun 19, 2018)

robgb said:


> What DAW are you using? You might look for a DAW with very low CPU usage. Alternatively, if you load KH Virtuoso Ensembles in ensemble mode, you'll only need a few instances of Kontakt and can use key switches.


I've been trying to use Cubase. I learnt on Pro Tools and find Cubase frustrating at times. LOL, but I think they all are frustrating. If it can be crashed, I will do it. 

I think I will have to switch to keyswitch mode for my laptop. Although, VSL SE actually has been working with the main articulations loaded. It just crashed when I tried to load a Kontakt 2nd violin.


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## Wally Garten (Jun 19, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> I travel a lot for work - the job that allows me to do my hobby - but my laptop setup only has 16GBs RAM. It is enough for most pop/rock songs, but I have been experimenting with orchestration and it crashes just with a partial orchestra loaded.



On a 2011 MacBook Pro with 16 GB RAM, I was able to do Logic projects of up to 40 or 50 tracks without crashing using a combination of Logic's included/legacy orchestral instruments and Sonivox Orchestral Companion. (I don't think all 50 tracks ever played at once -- more like 6-10 at a time.)


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## dzilizzi (Jun 19, 2018)

JohnG said:


> With some libraries, especially older ones, raw samples may be shared between articulations. Accordingly, it's important to group like instruments so the RAM doesn't get soaked up more than once.
> 
> To implement that, load all the "sustained" violin sounds (legato, sus, vibrato etc.) into a single instance of Kontakt. Do the same for violin II, viola, etc. Assign each patch its own midi channel.
> 
> ...


Can an external SSD replace RAM for loading instruments? I have one but I wasn't sure what to load on it since my instruments exceed the size of the SSD.


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## robgb (Jun 19, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> I've been trying to use Cubase. I learnt on Pro Tools and find Cubase frustrating at times. LOL, but I think they all are frustrating. If it can be crashed, I will do it.
> 
> I think I will have to switch to keyswitch mode for my laptop. Although, VSL SE actually has been working with the main articulations loaded. It just crashed when I tried to load a Kontakt 2nd violin.


I use Reaper, which has a very low CPU tax.


dzilizzi said:


> Can an external SSD replace RAM for loading instruments? I have one but I wasn't sure what to load on it since my instruments exceed the size of the SSD.


This will make your instruments load faster and make the direct from disk mode in Kontakt a bit smoother, but I don't think it would save any more RAM than a standard disk.


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## JohnG (Jun 19, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> Can an external SSD replace RAM for loading instruments? I have one but I wasn't sure what to load on it since my instruments exceed the size of the SSD.



If it's connected via USB 3.0 or 3.1 or, even better, Thunderbolt 3, it would be fine, maybe even better than running off the internal drive.

If it's USB 2.x probably it would not do what I was thinking -- allow you to lower the preload buffer in Kontakt.

An SSD that's connected properly (internal or fast external connection like Thunderbolt) can allow you to reduce the preload buffer appreciably more than a standard hard drive.


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## dsblais (Jun 19, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> Can an external SSD replace RAM for loading instruments? I have one but I wasn't sure what to load on it since my instruments exceed the size of the SSD.



In modern operating systems most swap drives are transparent to the user. Basically speaking, once you have run out of RAM, your system will normally use disk storage for paging out memory. This can be fine if you have a memory-consuming app that's just sitting in the background, but in the case of wanting more than your maximum system memory in use in a single app at the same time, it'll just churn memory back and forth to disk and be very slow.


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## MartinH. (Jun 25, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> Can an external SSD replace RAM for loading instruments? I have one but I wasn't sure what to load on it since my instruments exceed the size of the SSD.


seems relevant:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/using-sounds-on-external-drive-with-usb.72637/


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## dzilizzi (Jun 25, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> seems relevant:
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/using-sounds-on-external-drive-with-usb.72637/


Thanks! That is actually very useful.


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## ARP23 (Jul 16, 2018)

robgb said:


> Kirk Hunter's Virtuoso Ensembles. Sounds great, low CPU demands, full orchestra, and separate sections if you want.


 Virtuoso Ensembles spikes CPU unusually high to the point where it causes my PC to crackle. I have other libraries by Kirk Hunter, and they all seem to be fine. I read similar complaints by others. I hope that they will fix the issue.


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## robgb (Jul 16, 2018)

ARP23 said:


> Virtuoso Ensembles spikes CPU unusually high to the point where it causes my PC to crackle. I have other libraries by Kirk Hunter, and they all seem to be fine. I read similar complaints by others. I hope that they will fix the issue.


I can only speak for me, and I'm on a Mac. The only complaints I've seen are about the included multis.


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## MartinH. (Jul 17, 2018)

ARP23 said:


> Virtuoso Ensembles spikes CPU unusually high to the point where it causes my PC to crackle. I have other libraries by Kirk Hunter, and they all seem to be fine. I read similar complaints by others. I hope that they will fix the issue.



I have an i7 with 64 gig ram and I had something similar with one of the NI symphony series patches and thought "that can't be right". I was able to solve it, by going into the Kontakt settings and enabling multi-processor support. I think there was a warning that this is supposed to only be activated in either of Kontakt and DAW, but I probably have it active in both now, and the issue with cpu spikes and crackling seems to be gone. Your mileage may vary...


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## ARP23 (Jul 18, 2018)

Yes, the issue is with the factory multis. 

MartinH, 64 gig ram is a lot of ram! I'd say that you should not have any issue regardless of the mutl-processor setting. Anyway, thanks for the tip. I tried it, but it didn't make any difference. All the Symphobia multis play just fine. The VE multis could be very useful for me only if I could play them without CPU spikes...


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## Syneast (Jul 23, 2018)

The orchestral stuff in the Kontakt Factory Library is by far the most RAM efficient I have found. Lots of content and decent sound. Slap some WIPS on the woodwinds and even the brass and strings and you can get a lot out of it.

If you were lucky enough to buy Albion 1 before it disappeared, it's full ensemble patches are ridiculously light.

Berlin Orchestra Inspire is among the lightest orchestras I have used.

Palette Primary Colors is a bit heavier than the above, but still on the lighter side, and it's free.

Haven't used it myself, but Cinesymphony Light is pretty much designed for laptop use.


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## ARP23 (Jul 23, 2018)

Helpful! Thanks. It does make sense about the Kontakt Factory Library being RAM efficient. I better utilize them. I didn't know a thing about WIPS. Thanks for telling me about it. 

Is the current Albion 1 as light as the original one?


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## novicecomposer (Jul 23, 2018)

Do the samples in the Kontakt Factory Library sound good? I heard some do but also heard some sound like synthy.


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## Syneast (Jul 23, 2018)

The orchestral samples in KFL come from earlier versions of the Vienna Symphonic Libraries. I'd say they are pristine and consistent, like all of VSL's stuff. Some people like the sound and some don't. You're not going to get the realism you get with the more expensive, wetter libraries, but with some panning, eq and reverb treatment they can sound quite good. Clear is a word I'd use to describe them.


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## Syneast (Jul 23, 2018)

ARP23 said:


> Is the current Albion 1 as light as the original one?


Not really, no. I think they put in more velocity layers and round robins on pretty much everything. It's closer in size to a full orchestral library.


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## jcrosby (Jul 24, 2018)

Inspire and Symphobia will run on a 16 GB just fine... They also happen to sound pretty flipping excellent for being so efficient... Albion One's never given me issues despite the previous post. I've run all of them on 2011 and 2012 MacBook Pros, no issues at all.


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## DivingInSpace (Jul 24, 2018)

jcrosby said:


> Inspire and Symphobia will run on a 16 GB just fine... They also happen to sound pretty flipping excellent for being so efficient... Albion One's never given me issues despite the previous post. I've run all of them on 2011 and 2012 MacBook Pros, no issues at all.



Symphobia is the Best Buy I have done, and really makes me regret getting Albion One first as I pretty much only use the percussion from it now. It really doesn't use much Ram no, and it just sounds so great out of the box! Also, all the rips, runs, effects etc. is a huge bonus!


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## Vik (Jul 24, 2018)

Soaring Strings is only circa 4 gb.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 24, 2018)

Syneast said:


> The orchestral stuff in the Kontakt Factory Library is by far the most RAM efficient I have found. Lots of content and decent sound. Slap some WIPS on the woodwinds and even the brass and strings and you can get a lot out of it.


What are WIPS? All the acronyms I know that match to that have nothing to do with sound.


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## Syneast (Jul 24, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> What are WIPS? All the acronyms I know that match to that have nothing to do with sound.


It's a Kontakt script for simulated legato. I think it's floating around here somewhere or on the internet if you want to download it. The older version is called SIPS.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 24, 2018)

Syneast said:


> It's a Kontakt script for simulated legato. I think it's floating around here somewhere or on the internet if you want to download it. The older version is called SIPS.


Thanks. I will look for it.


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## robgb (Jul 26, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Do the samples in the Kontakt Factory Library sound good? I heard some do but also heard some sound like synthy.


The ones right up front can sound synthy. But if you dig into the menu and go to the Legacy orchestral instruments, you'll find some very solid instruments, including longs with modwheel dynamics. Here's a quick tutorial I did showing how to spruce up the instruments with legato, etc., using the SIPS scripts.


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## DivingInSpace (Jul 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> The ones right up front can sound synthy. But if you dig into the menu and go to the Legacy orchestral instruments, you'll find some very solid instruments, including longs with modwheel dynamics. Here's a quick tutorial I did showing how to spruce up the instruments with legato, etc., using the WIPS scripts.




While I still wouldn't use them too exposed, this is really cool, and could definitely work for someone just starting out! I might dig in an try this out myself!


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## ARP23 (Jul 26, 2018)

dzilizzi said:


> What are WIPS? All the acronyms I know that match to that have nothing to do with sound.


When searching for something like this, give it a little more context. For instance, instead of just "WIPS" search "WIPS VST" Then see what the search engine does for you. 

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/big-bobs-wips-scripts.64537/


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## novicecomposer (Jul 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> The ones right up front can sound synthy. But if you dig into the menu and go to the Legacy orchestral instruments, you'll find some very solid instruments, including longs with modwheel dynamics. Here's a quick tutorial I did showing how to spruce up the instruments with legato, etc., using the SIPS scripts.



Wow, holy shit! Thanks! Where did you learn all this stuff?! I never bothered digging up Kontakt script under the hood but now I should! Question: you created key switches. Is it limited to up to 16 switches because there are only 16 channels?


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## robgb (Jul 26, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Wow, holy shit! Thanks! Where did you learn all this stuff?! I never bothered digging up Kontakt script under the hood but now I should! Question: you created key switches. Is it limited to up to 16 switches because there are only 16 channels?


While Kontakt will allow you to load up many more instruments by switching to another port, most DAWS I've used limit your access to 16. Someone who knows more about Kontakt routing might know a way around this. So, yes, sixteen channels, sixteen key switches. You might also look into @tack's Flex Router for Kontakt to open up more possibilities in creating key switches.


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## tack (Jul 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> You might also look into @tack's Flex Router for Kontakt to open up more possibilities in creating key switches.


Indeed, FlexRouter would let you address all ports within Kontakt, allowing a multi of 64 patches on their own separate channels (A1-16 through D1-16), with custom keyswitches to activate them.

(Thanks for the ping, Rob.)


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## novicecomposer (Jul 30, 2018)

@tack , @robgb - Wow, FlexRouter is awesome and works great for me! Thanks guys


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## ARP23 (Jul 30, 2018)

Thanks, Robgb for the video on FlexRouter. Great information.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 4, 2018)

What about this: https://www.steinberg.net/de/products/vst/halion_symphonic_orchestra/details.html
There is a trial version...

Even if it is maybe not the top of all products - you will have a symphonic orchestra with you... LapTop friendly
Best
Beat


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## robgb (Aug 4, 2018)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> What about this: https://www.steinberg.net/de/products/vst/halion_symphonic_orchestra/details.html
> There is a trial version...
> 
> Even if it is maybe not the top of all products - you will have a symphonic orchestra with you... LapTop friendly
> ...


The demos sound pretty nice. I'm a strong believer in the idea that the library is far less important than the user, and that in the right hands even the so-called "lesser" libraries can sound terrific.


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## ARP23 (Aug 4, 2018)

Is it true that still all Steinberg products require a USB dongle? That's a deal breaker for me.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 4, 2018)

ARP23 said:


> Is it true that still all Steinberg products require a USB dongle? That's a deal breaker for me.


It is the same dongle as VSL uses.


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## robgb (Aug 5, 2018)

Been playing with the Halion Symphonic Orchestra demo. You can download it and use it for 30 days. I'm actually finding quite a lot to like about it. Great sounds. Fairly good control. And I can't find anything on the page that says it requires a dongle. Maybe it can be authorized without one?


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## VgsA (Aug 5, 2018)

robgb said:


> Been playing with the Halion Symphonic Orchestra demo. You can download it and use it for 30 days. I'm actually finding quite a lot to like about it. Great sounds. Fairly good control. And I can't find anything on the page that says it requires a dongle. Maybe it can be authorized without one?



You can download eLicenser control center and authorize it on that computer instead of a dongle (if I correctly recall). Actually, I guess you had to do so with the demo license, right? Granted, if your computer dies, the license dies with it...


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## robgb (Aug 5, 2018)

VgsA said:


> You can download eLicenser control center and authorize it on that computer instead of a dongle (if I correctly recall). Actually, I guess you had to do so with the demo license, right? Granted, if your computer dies, the license dies with it...


Ah, right. I checked. I have the eLicenser control center. Not too worried about my computer dying. I have multiple backups of both my main drive and my library drives.


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## ARP23 (Aug 5, 2018)

robgb said:


> Been playing with the Halion Symphonic Orchestra demo. You can download it and use it for 30 days. I'm actually finding quite a lot to like about it. Great sounds. Fairly good control. And I can't find anything on the page that says it requires a dongle. Maybe it can be authorized without one?


I read some posts on the Steinberg forum; some of their products seem to use their soft eLicenser, but not Halion 6. I have many apps and libraries that use the online version of iLok. I have never had any issue with it. It is very convenient. I have two apps that require a usb dongle. I don't have any choice because there is no other alternative for them. Two USB dongles are already too many and there is also the chance to lose them. In that case, I have to buy a new license. When it comes to Halion type of libraries, there are alternatives. I would definitively consider purchasing Halion if Steingberg switches to their e-Licenser.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 5, 2018)

ARP23 said:


> there is also the chance to lose them. In that case, I have to buy a new license.



Whilst that is certainly the case with VSL, to the best of my knowledge with Steinberg you do not have to re-purchase your libraries.


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## mikeleon1551 (Aug 11, 2018)

Palette Primary Colors. Ridiculously generous offering, may end up buying the rest later when the budget allows it. It is quick and good.


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