# Putting an end to silly DAW wars on this forum?



## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2020)

Can we all please agree to stipulate to the following:

1. A DAW is a tool, not a religion.

2. Every major DAW has users who create good music with it and those who create bad music with it.

3. No DAW is perfect and each has at least a feature or two that users of other DAWs might well like.

4. Insisting repeatedly that your DAW of choice is better than the others is a waste of time.

5. When asked about what you like about your DAW, it is perfectly fine to do so, but it can and should be done without knocking others.

I think we can stop wasting time and bandwidth by simply agreeing to this.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 30, 2020)

but when are you jumping to Cubase?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 30, 2020)

My DAW is the best. 

I agree though, it's more productive to discuss personal experiences and pros/cons so that interested people can make an informed decision.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2020)

Jdiggity1 said:


> but when are you jumping to Cubase?



When you hire me to help you and pay me $10,000 for 3 months work if I use it.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jun 30, 2020)

I don't have much to add here, but I just remembered an event quite interesting which I'd like to share.

I used to be an instructor at an audio engineering school here in Canada, and one day I was at the office speaking to the program manager about something... Anyway he told me right to my face that "Everyone knows Cubase is a toy DAW, terrible", in reaction to my suggestion about installing a copy of Cubase on the machines as it's my main sequencer.

I ignored him altogether, but I found it ironic! I like how Hans Zimmer referred to Cubase in one of Steinberg's promotional videos: As a laboratory.

And since when do we have good or bad laboratories? It is a place of experimentation, it is the scientist inside who makes the difference.

Cheers


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## I like music (Jun 30, 2020)

Whichever one can do the prettiest colours.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 30, 2020)

I agree, Jay. The DAW wars are pointless and time consuming. Like you say, at the end of the day, they're just tools that we.. LOGIC RULES AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS A TOY


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## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2020)

(sigh)


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## MartinH. (Jun 30, 2020)

We have DAW wars? I didn't notice. Mac vs PC, sure... but DAWs?


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## bryla (Jun 30, 2020)

sDAW Wars....


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 30, 2020)

Rasoul Morteza said:


> I used to be an instructor at an audio engineering school here in Canada, and one day I was at the office speaking to the program manager about something... Anyway he told me right to my face that "Everyone knows Cubase is a toy DAW, terrible", in reaction to my suggestion about installing a copy of Cubase on the machines as it's my main sequencer.



Lol! I'm also in Canada....I actually had a client walk out of my studio because I wasn't using Pro Tools for composing/producing his score. He was baffled, and couldn't understand how I could work without it in a professional setting.


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## CT (Jun 30, 2020)

DAW wars are silly; let's kick the OS wars into a higher gear though so I can decide what my next computer should be.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jun 30, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Lol! I'm also in Canada....I actually had a client walk out of my studio because I wasn't using Pro Tools for composing/producing his score. He was baffled, and couldn't understand how I could work without it in a professional setting.


I am baffled... but I personally wouldn't want to work with such people anyway. Quite a positive thing happened in your case.


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## Ben (Jun 30, 2020)

Sometimes I wonder why some people like to work with certain DAWs (every time I have to open one of them I get chills).
But I think DAWs are like food, different people have different tastes. 

The only thing I want to say in a DAW discussion: If you feel that your DAW doesn't fit your workflow, (or for beginners: after days the DAW still feels alien to you), just test another DAW and see if it fits you better.


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## Jay Panikkar (Jun 30, 2020)

Audacity for life. I spit on all your peasant DAWs.

Also, I only use Linux and USB 1.0.


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## Quasar (Jun 30, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> 1. A DAW is a tool, not a religion.



Freedom of religion is a fundamental right. Who are you to say what constitutes a religion and what does not?

I come from a very long ancestral line of DAW worshipers, who often were persecuted and thus had to keep their studio monitor volumes down very low to avoid detection from oppressive theocratic authorities when practicing their sacred DAW ceremonies. Do we really want to return to those Dark Times?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2020)

Ben said:


> Sometimes I wonder why some people like to work with certain DAWs (every time I have to open one of them I get chills).
> But I think DAWs are like food, different people have different tastes.
> 
> The only thing I want to say in a DAW discussion: If you feel that your DAW doesn't fit your workflow, (or for beginners: after days the DAW still feels alien to you), just test another DAW and see if it fits you better.



The best DAW is the DAW you know how to use best.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 30, 2020)

You should be using Cubase though.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Freedom of religion is a fundamental right. Who are you to say what constitutes a religion and what does not?
> 
> I come from a very long ancestral line of DAW worshipers, who often were persecuted and thus had to keep their studio monitor volumes down very low to avoid detection from oppressive theocratic authorities when practicing their sacred DAW ceremonies. Do we really want to return to those Dark Times?




ROTL! Good one, Quasar


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## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You should be using Cubase though.



I will as soon as you pay me to switch, and in a month, I will be better with it than you


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 30, 2020)

Whatever @staypuft uses is the best.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 30, 2020)

I like music said:


> Whichever one can do the prettiest colours.


This!!!!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 30, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I will as soon as you pay me to switch, and in a month, I will be better with it than you



But you will never have a wonderful and elaborate color palette like I have!


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## giwro (Jun 30, 2020)

I've tried a lot of 'em - Logic, MOTU DP, Cubase, Cakewalk (and its later incarnations), Reaper, N-Track...

My impression is that for many DAWs, it's simply too fiddly and complex to make the program do what you want it to do. I'm sure there's some sort of logic to why it takes so many clicks to do simple stuff, or why you have to jump through hoops just to get a sound, assign an effect, etc...

I got pretty good at Cakewalk and its successors, but even now with DP, Logic, and Cubase installed, I still go back to N-Track... 

I think we should use what works best for us, and be done with the arguing. The "best" is the tool you can get the best results out of the easiest...


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## zolhof (Jun 30, 2020)

Two pages and no sign of Reaper users and their scripts. Seriously... wtf 2020?


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## Mike Greene (Jun 30, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The best DAW is the DAW you know how to use best.


Yep. And as my brain decays with age, the idea of switching becomes scarier and scarier, I don't care how much better other DAWs might be. MSQ700 to SMPTE-Track to Studio Vision to Performer to Logic ... I am done!


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2020)

Ash, definitely agree there is no point whatsoever in a "war". Religious and cult like followings aside, every DAW does in fact have pros and cons and I still think its useful to discuss those pros and cons. its also true what you say that an awful lot of people become emotionally tied to their platform and are unable to have rational objective discussion in this area without turning it into a war...but I think its a mistake to turn off that discussion anyway because those pros and cons do matter. 

They matter both for people that are considering a switch to a different platform or maybe someone just starting out..but also these discussions help developers to improve their DAW products based on what they might see people complaining or praising about it.

What I like about this forum is that its not centered around any one particular DAW...so in fact its neutral territory to have those kinds of discussions. Whereas, if you go to the Steinberg forum or motunation you can hardly expect to have any kind of civilized objective and reasonable discussion that might expose the flaws in their beloved platform.

So yes...I think people should stop being emotional and tribal about it...but no...I don't think we should stop discussing the pros and cons...even if it means some people are gonna be tribal about it.


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2020)

I gotta admit that when I was switching from Mac to PC and thus away from DP, I was trying to decide which DAW to use on PC. I knew absolutely nothing about PC DAWS. Litterally back then Cakewalk and Fruitloops studio and Cubase were all about the same to me. I went to west LA music to demo EWQLSO and when I walked into the store they had a version of Cubase SX3 on display, and I went ooooohhh its got such pretty meters. So I picked Cubase.


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## Brambleclaw (Jun 30, 2020)

I use Studio One and in its current state compared to its competitors its a very poor show.

beggars can't be choosers though.


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> Yep. And as my brain decays with age, the idea of switching becomes scarier and scarier, I don't care how much better other DAWs might be. MSQ700 to SMPTE-Track to Studio Vision to Performer to Logic ... I am done!


Yep. I went from Vision (not even studio Vision because it cost like $100 more) to DP to Cubase. I'm done. I've toyed with the idea of going back to Performer but evey time I download the demo, I'm like ya gotta be kiddin' me, it's so hard. I just don't have the time.

In our 20's and 30's I had all the time in the world to try new DAWS. In my 50's mmmmm...nah. 

People say Cubase is blah, blah, blah doesn't do this doesn't do that has problems with this or that, I'm like who cares, it can record all midi data, record and edit audio, and host vsti's and vstfx without crashing. I'm good.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 30, 2020)

Brambleclaw said:


> I use Studio One and in its current state compared to its competitors its a very poor show.
> 
> beggars can't be choosers though.


Sure you can. Cakewalk is free. Reaper is almost free..... There is some choice.


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## MartinH. (Jun 30, 2020)

zolhof said:


> Two pages and no sign of Reaper users and their scripts. Seriously... wtf 2020?



Don't provoke us!


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2020)

Brambleclaw said:


> I use Studio One and in its current state compared to its competitors its a very poor show.
> 
> beggars can't be choosers though.


What's up with Studio One? It was off to a promising start when first released. Did the dream not materialize?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 30, 2020)

I still think it has promise. But DAW's are complicated and it will take time to get there. What it does do, it does very well IMHO, its just not super deep compared to some of the others that have been around a long time.


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## ptram (Jun 30, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> 1. A DAW is a tool, not a religion.


Being a lay person, I can't disagree. Logic is my only belief!

Paolo


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 30, 2020)

When I was younger, I hopped between DAWS. Now I’m (just) on the wrong side of 40, I can’t be bothered with the change anymore.

So from now on, it’s going to be me, Logic, a nice pair of slippers and a steaming mug of Earl Grey.


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## JohnG (Jun 30, 2020)

b-b-b-but mine's the bestest [weeps, whimpers]


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## kgdrum (Jun 30, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Freedom of religion is a fundamental right. Who are you to say what constitutes a religion and what does not?
> 
> I come from a very long ancestral line of DAW worshipers, who often were persecuted and thus had to keep their studio monitor volumes down very low to avoid detection from oppressive theocratic authorities when practicing their sacred DAW ceremonies. Do we really want to return to those Dark Times?





Ashermusic said:


> ROTL! Good one, Quasar



@Quasar 

Would it be too much to ask if you could please share with us the sacred authorization ritual you often mention ? Obviously this was passed down by your ancestors and is part of the foundation of your faith,which opposes authorizations rituals based on heretical beliefs contrary to your values.
Please tell us more about those Dark Times so we can learn from history and understand all of this. 

Thank You

KG


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## Yury Tikhomirov (Jun 30, 2020)

Fast Tracker for the win! 
Let's all get back to trackers...and life will never be the same again.


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## Brambleclaw (Jun 30, 2020)

josejherring said:


> What's up with Studio One? It was off to a promising start when first released. Did the dream not materialize?


Yeh so promising you couldn't even draw in the tempo. If you want to rall or accell you have to manually input each tempi change.

That's before we start discussing all the bugs. 

as soon as you go beyond the "basics" it becomes a frustrating piece of software.


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## Quasar (Jun 30, 2020)

kgdrum said:


> @Quasar
> 
> Would it be too much to ask if you could please share with us the sacred authorization ritual you often mention ? Obviously this was passed down by your ancestors and is part of the foundation of your faith,which opposes authorizations rituals based on heretical beliefs contrary to your values.
> Please tell us more about those Dark Times so we can learn from history and understand all of this.
> ...



To make a long story short, it had to do with the Holy Key File during the 8th-century Carolingian age. When Charlemagne's troops were off subduing Saxon revolts or whatever, WiFi was spotty at best, so "phoning home" to activate DAW software was problematic. Additionally, dongles were often lost or broken in battle, cut down by an enemy's sword. 

But the simple, locally controlled key file (such as Reaper uses) proved to be hardy & reliable. You could activate your software at will, even under the most trying conditions. Even when, say, all communications had broken down and you were completely surrounded by hostile Frisian soldiers, the key file still worked.


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## nolotrippen (Jun 30, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Can we all please agree to stipulate to the following:
> 
> 1. A DAW is a tool, not a religion.
> 
> ...




Them's Fightin' words, Pilgrim


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## gpax (Jun 30, 2020)

Vi-Control is an opinion farm.

When you unlock its mysteries, that there really is “no best,” you then understand the key to unity here.

It is only and ever about the experiences we each bring to discussions, conveying the effectiveness of tools of choice - as we each experience them.

When one confronts the reality of a myopic world view, they may then begin to question why so much energy is spent here speaking as if there can only be one tool, for specific tasks.

Where such a definitive tool exists, be it hardware, DAWs, plugins or string libraries with perfected legato, is a myth. Not even a poll can undo that eternal truth, no matter how desperately it might hope to reveal a consensus from the universe.

The best DAW has not been developed yet. It never will be.


You’re welcome.


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## kgdrum (Jun 30, 2020)

@Quasar 
Thanks,the historical aspects of one of the greatest stories ever told is fascinating!
Could also explain the sacred authorization ceremony and detail how the license key heretics have conspired against the foundation of everything your faith holds dear?


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## easyrider (Jun 30, 2020)

Everyone knows Tape is best...


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## seclusion3 (Jun 30, 2020)

Tonight on DawWars, 
we have 5 students setting up a recording of a 3 piece band with midi drums. They have a life line to one member of vi- control.
You have all you need, to record, computer interface, mic's softsynths, midi, keyboard etc.
Top 3 from the last 3 shows come in next week, where they spec out a computer to buy, software and have to authorize everything in 4hrs. 
Winner gets a copy of the BestDaw to be chosen later.


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## EgM (Jun 30, 2020)

You're all using the wrong DAWs.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 30, 2020)

gpax said:


> The best DAW has not been developed yet. It never will be.


You're ruining my hopes.

Actually, I'm just looking for good enough. 


Though having a decent computer is making it a lot better. Mostly, all the DAWs I use work fine, the computers just don't support them yet..... and it is not Mac vs PC because the Mac can't handle too much, just like the PC's.

Edit: Maybe it is a money thing though.....


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## Michel Simons (Jun 30, 2020)

giwro said:


> I got pretty good at Cakewalk and its successors, but even now with DP, Logic, and Cubase installed, I still go back to N-Track...



N-Track? Does it come with a certain library?


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## Mornats (Jul 1, 2020)

Page 3 and no one has said a piece of notation paper and a pencil is the best DAW. What's happened to you VI-control?!


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## FinGael (Jul 1, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Page 3 and no one has said a piece of notation paper and a pencil is the best DAW. What's happened to you VI-control?!


What is a pencil?


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## Mornats (Jul 1, 2020)

FinGael said:


> What is a pencil?



Dunno but it had better be deep sampled.


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## EgM (Jul 1, 2020)

FinGael said:


> What is a pencil?



Staedtler in Nuremberg, Germany has developed a deep sampled pencil quite some years ago, I'm especially a fan of the _con corsivo_ legato articulation.

Not sure it was made for Kontakt though...


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## Mornats (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm from the north of England so I'm holding out for Albion VII - Derwent.


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## Loïc D (Jul 1, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> When I was younger, I hopped between DAWS. Now I’m (just) on the wrong side of 40, I can’t be bothered with the change anymore.
> 
> So from now on, it’s going to be me, Logic, a nice pair of slippers and a steaming mug of Earl Grey.



So...
We have the same DAW & lifestyle ?


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## giwro (Jul 1, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> N-Track? Does it come with a certain library?


No, it does have some included things like a drum set...

I used it years ago when it was in its infancy - there were some bugs, and it crashed often...

I got a serious case of “the grass is greener” and tried so many different DAWs, but none ever seemed as intuitive or simple to me - for some DAWs it seems like you have to sacrifice a brindle calf on the night of the first blue moon just to get sound out of a track... 

It should not be that difficult. I want to be able to add a midi track, assign a VST and get to work with a minimum of fuss. If I want effects, I don’t want to have to go through some routing nightmare with inserts to get it, I want to right click and add it. Are instead useful? Absolutely. But I want a SIMPLE way to get effects.... I found that with most other DAWs I had to RTFM almost every time, just to do simple stuff.

Now, I realize I’m a special case - I often do my prep work in Finale, Dorico, or Notion and then export the midi for further tweaking in the DAW. Sometimes I can get it so close that all I need to do is export stems and massage the audio in the DAW. YMMV, but head over and check it out... https://ntrack.com/digital-audio-workstation.php


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## hummingbird (Jul 1, 2020)

You know when they ask you, among other things, what DAW you use and there's a drop down menu that lists things like Cubase and ProTools and Digital Performer and Logic and Sonar and stuff? My DAW is never, ever listed. 

But it doesn't matter. 

I subscribe to the Hans Zimmer school of 'which DAW to use' - the one you know.


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## rudi (Jul 1, 2020)

zolhof said:


> Two pages and no sign of Reaper users and their scripts. Seriously... wtf 2020?




The ways of REAPER are mysterious... and there be few who find it.


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## babylonwaves (Jul 1, 2020)

hummingbird said:


> I subscribe to the Hans Zimmer school of 'which DAW to use' - the one you know.



what would that be? n-track ...? - ok, i'll show myself out


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## TinderC (Jul 1, 2020)

giwro said:


> I often do my prep work in Finale, Dorico, or Notion and then export the midi for further tweaking in the DAW.


Sounds like a perfectly normal flow.


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## dgburns (Jul 1, 2020)

Just - LOL


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## Ashermusic (Jul 1, 2020)

I am perfectly ok with discussing the pros and cons, just not attacking another while doing so. As some of you may know, I am in the process of writing a Logic Pro X for Beginners book and a couple of times I mention things that I find annoying or that could be better.


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## bvaughn0402 (Jul 1, 2020)

But if Logic and Cubase had a baby ... I'd SO be adopting that critter ...


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## rudi (Jul 1, 2020)

Lobase?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 1, 2020)

bvaughn0402 said:


> But if Logic and Cubase had a baby ... I'd SO be adopting that critter ...




Actually, the features I covet most are in DP-chunks, streamers, and hit plotting.


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## mk-oh-one (Jul 1, 2020)

Brambleclaw said:


> Yeh so promising you couldn't even draw in the tempo. If you want to rall or accell you have to manually input each tempi change.
> 
> That's before we start discussing all the bugs.
> 
> as soon as you go beyond the "basics" it becomes a frustrating piece of software.


Lucky escape for me then. When Gibson dropped Sonar I was mad as hell and started looking around. 

I now use Reaper and Cakewalk but Bandlab have been really good so far, which I have to admit was a surprise to me. I am very grateful to them. 

I like both but they both also do things that annoy me. Now, because of Reaper, I know I should have learned Calkwalk's Smart Tool years ago. And I still haven't.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 1, 2020)

rudi said:


> Lobase?


NO! It's Cubic! You bought the wrong baby!


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## dzilizzi (Jul 1, 2020)

If I could put some of the midi stuff from Cubase into ProTools and make ProTools run VST plugins without a wrapper, I think I might be really happy. 

Would Lobase/Cubic run on PCs also? Or just Macs?


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## Quasar (Jul 1, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> If I could put some of the midi stuff from Cubase into ProTools and make ProTools run VST plugins without a wrapper, I think I might be really happy.
> 
> Would Lobase/Cubic run on PCs also? Or just Macs?


We'll have to start calling you Dr. Frankendaw.


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## Saxer (Jul 1, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> NO! It's Cubic! You bought the wrong baby!


As far as I remember the very first Cubase version after Steinberg 24 was actually announced as Cubic or Cubit or so... for a couple of weeks. Then they probably got trouble witch the name copy rights and changed the name to Cubase.


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## Saxer (Jul 1, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Would Lobase/Cubic run on PCs also? Or just Macs?


It only runs on Windows installed on Apple hardware!


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## PaulieDC (Jul 1, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I think we can stop wasting time and bandwidth by simply agreeing to this.


When I first came on here and started posting questions about VI in Studio One (that I thought was the DAW of the Century but I was only doing analog tracking and mixes at that time), I have to admit that folks were pretty decent in their careful replies, mostly suggesting that it really wasn't ready for prime time with MIDI composing. I was totally green, didn't believe it and just reasoned that people weren't familiar enough with it (yeah, stupid and arrogant I was). It took me two years of experimenting, hoping, waiting for PreSonus updates, and even rebuilding my tower with a 14 core CPU and 128GB ram to find out for myself that my favorite analog/EDM DAW wasn't really ready for prime time VI, lol. Running Winderz, my obvious option was to take a step of faith and go Cubase, and switch from PreSonus cheap AI to an RME Babyface Pro, and now my environment is amazing, certainly better than my composing skills. What's my point? Not really sure, forgot where I was going with this, lol... BUT, I never really got DAW-hammered. I did get raked through the mud on a different newbie question back then, but the Newbie forum was created.

Ultimately I've now noticed over three years that almost every VI pro uses Logic or Cubase for the most part. Not really an arguable statement, tons of YT vids to prove it. If I had a Mac and then got bit by the VI bug, how can you *not *ping the App Store and download Logic for a couple C-Notes? Seems like a no-brainer.

My DAW-for-VI problem is now solved, my last two purchases were books on notation and orchestration. So darts can fling at Cubase, I'm too old and cranky to care who the flinger is. 

Wish you the best on your book.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 1, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I agree, Jay. The DAW wars are pointless and time consuming. Like you say, at the end of the day, they're just tools that we.. LOGIC RULES AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS A TOY


You are so right! I run it on my PC, it's awesome! Funny, somebody put a Cubase sticker over it, but it's Logic, I'm sure of it!


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## dzilizzi (Jul 1, 2020)

Saxer said:


> It only runs on Windows installed on Apple hardware!


Perfect!


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## PaulieDC (Jul 1, 2020)

josejherring said:


> What's up with Studio One? It was off to a promising start when first released. Did the dream not materialize?


No, multicore support is still an issue, and Notion was incompatible with i9/Xeon processors, and so I had no notation integration for almost two years. I love Studio One's interface for mixing a regular band, so easy to use, built-in Melodyne so you can edit vocals on the fly and a great built-in Mastering section. But try to work with a huge template for VI work and you've got this:


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## bvaughn0402 (Jul 1, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Actually, the features I covet most are in DP-chunks, streamers, and hit plotting.



That's interesting. I bought DP but never even tried it. Jordan Rudess was really into it, but I never gave it a chance. Guess I'll look into it more.


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## hansmagnus (Jul 1, 2020)

I don't think there's a "superior" DAW. Everyone works different... I actually use 2 DAWs, FL and Cubase, simply because there are ways I work in FL that I can't do in Cubase and vice versa. I tend to use FL more tho.

I personally don't like the whole "industry standard" thing with DAWs. I believe that you should use the DAW that you're most comfortable with initially and not just settle on the industry standards like Cubase or Logic, just because you have to and all of the pros are using it. It's quite sad honestly, but that's just how it is I guess... I wish it could be different. And yes, before you ask, that was actually one of the reasons why I bought Cubase  

I think it just comes down to trying out different DAWs and going with what you're most comfortable with in the end.


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## rudi (Jul 2, 2020)

Saxer said:


> As far as I remember the very first Cubase version after Steinberg 24 was actually announced as Cubic or Cubit or so... for a couple of weeks. Then they probably got trouble witch the name copy rights and changed the name to Cubase.


Yes, it was going to be released as "Cubit" originally, but another software company was already using that name, so Steinberg changed it to "Cubase". The rest as they say is history


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## DS_Joost (Jul 2, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Can we all please agree to stipulate to the following:
> 
> 1. A DAW is a tool, not a religion.
> 
> ...



Hi Jay,

To answer your points:

1) Nah, I pray at the altar to the Reason Studios gods every day that one day it might actually become a proper DAW

2) What if I create absolutely awful stuff with a good DAW but I'm not conscious enough to see it?

3) A feature or two? You are clearly not a Reason user... We'd wish it was missing only a feature or two...

4) Indeed. My DAW is worse...

5) I still love Reason and wish to see the others die in a fire...

Just kidding of course. Agreed wholeheartedly on all fronts!


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## DS_Joost (Jul 2, 2020)

You guys have it good, reading all this. I actually make film music with a DAW that doesn't even support film...


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## Uncle Peter (Jul 2, 2020)

If you don't use Cubase then you're a total WANKER!!!


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## Lassi Tani (Jul 2, 2020)

After the Westworld war is dying down, we need a new war! 🔪🗡⚔🤬


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## DS_Joost (Jul 2, 2020)

Uncle Peter said:


> If you don't use Cubase then you're a total WANKER!!!



And what if I abuse Cubase?


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## Akarin (Jul 2, 2020)

There's no DAW war. Just two kinds of people: those who know that Cubase is superior to other DAWs, and those who are wrong.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 2, 2020)

(sigh)


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## Sean J (Jul 2, 2020)

Ending the DAW wars? Easy.

*STAFFPAD!*

*And because this font can't get bigger...*








I swap Violin II from Berlin to Spitfire Chamber (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TYQWULJ8jIHjDMZmHzlyoRDtqwo8lAUd/view?usp=sharing (mp3 here)). A couple taps is all. Mwa ha ha ha!!! Take that DAWs! Your time has nearly met its end! This Bond theme was the first thing I started writing in StaffPad in March. Bond themes helped to raise me as a kid. Anyway, after a week of the handwriting learning curve, I fell in love.

Okay, okay, I still use a DAW. I just start in StaffPad now. Still, I think any DAW war, or mention of a DAW war, or call to end a DAW war, *or mention of a DAW in any context whatsoever*... is incomplete without also saying how much better StaffPad is than every DAW.

What was the point of this thread again?


----------



## Saxer (Jul 2, 2020)

scoredfilms said:


> *STAFFPAD!*
> 
> *And because this font can't get bigger...*


StaffPad is truely realized science fiction!


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## peladio (Jul 2, 2020)

Dissapointed by the lack of Reaper evangelists..come on guys..


----------



## dcoscina (Jul 2, 2020)

I work at a music store so I have to know all of the DAWs and I have copies of all of them accordingly, which is a bit wonky because I never get enough time to really get into any one of them. StaffPad has mostly been occupying my time since it debuted for iOS in February. 

My thoughts are this ( not that anyone really cares mind you). I prefer Cubase insofar as general navigation and employing structure to works. The Expression maps are very cool. Plus it's more analogous to DP which I used for years and years.

I use Logic still because it's waaaaaay more stable on my Mac Pro 6,1, doesn't require to stupid dongle, and I can create my own KS patches really easily. But I don't like the fact it doesn't have multiple CC lanes (at least the way Cubase does). I do prefer its Notation editor to Cubase as well (though I use Dorico for my engraving needs). And every update is FREE. Logic's scoring with video is more solid as well. I work in one computer and Cubase is glitchy as hell with imported video....Logic is rock solid. Same goes for DP in that capacity.

Speaking of DP, I kinda dropped it after ver 9. The small GUI print was too much for my aging eyes and even with the new re-sizing, it looks kinda bad. Plus, I could never host VIs within the DAW. IT always had to be in VEPRO which was a pain in of itself for me. 

Ableton, well, I think I'm just not into the thing because of the music I write, and the way I'm used to composing. I can see how powerful it can be but it's the most alien interface I've encountered. I've done a couple loop-based things but it's exceedingly frustrating to get around on

Studio One is actually quite good and very optimized. Work flow is excellent as well. It's more that I just have more of a comfort level with Cubase and Logic but my dealings with Studio One are good. HOWEVER, Studio One Artist does not read third party VSTs and requires a $100 add on to do so. Pretty scummy Presonus. Even Ableton Live lite allows for third party instrument plug ins! They are basically making you buy their PRO version... not cool Robert Frost!


----------



## Mornats (Jul 2, 2020)

peladio said:


> Dissapointed by the lack of Reaper evangelists..come on guys..



Yay Reaper, go, go, go, rar-rar-rar.


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## Tim_Wells (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm still using DOS and Twelve Tone Cakewalk v. 1.0. I can't imagine ever needing anything else.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> I work in one computer and Cubase is glitchy as hell with imported video....Logic is rock solid. Same goes for DP in that capacity.


I’m presently using Cubase 10.5.12, and video is rock solid on my 2019 iMac, BUT...there are no options for video export. I was working on a :15 and the imported video was 15 mb... the ONLY export that can be done exports it at over 60 mb. 4 times the size of the imported video. Dumb.

As for the Logic Cubase combo name....I think....

Cugic. 

Somehow, it sounds nastier.


----------



## Fry777 (Jul 3, 2020)

Akarin said:


> There's no DAW war. Just two kinds of people: those who know that Cubase is superior to other DAWs, and those who are wrong.


----------



## Tfis (Jul 3, 2020)

EgM said:


> Staedtler in Nuremberg, Germany has developed a deep sampled pencil quite some years ago, I'm especially a fan of the _con corsivo_ legato articulation.


Does it Comic Sans?


Ashermusic said:


> Logic Pro X for Beginners book


Lol, all Logic users are beginners!


peladio said:


> Dissapointed by the lack of Reaper evangelists..come on guys


As with all unsuccessful religions, the most of them committed suicide.


----------



## Uiroo (Jul 3, 2020)

If someone asked me I'd recommend Cubase, but I really have a love-hate relationship with it.
I'm really happy with the workflow I have, but it took me a few years to figure things certain things out, to get around certain limitations and bugs that are known for years. I'd never ever want to switch to a different DAW, looking back on how long it took me to learn Cubase reasonably well. And:
The support is horrible.


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## novaburst (Jul 3, 2020)

I have many DAWs Cubase 5,Cubase 6 Cubase 7 Cubase 8 Cubase 9 Cubase 10 and just to show I am not showing discrimination I am going for a new DAW next year I think it will be Cubase 11

All DAWs are equal trust me I should know


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## Ashermusic (Jul 3, 2020)

It’s hard 


Uiroo said:


> I'd never ever want to switch to a different DAW, looking back on how long it took me to learn



And I think if there is a moral to the sto, that’s it.

Thank you for making one of the few intelligent responses, instead of cracking a bad joke by trying, largely unsuccessfully, to be clever.


----------



## toomanynotes (Jul 3, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> I'm still using DOS and Twelve Tone Cakewalk v. 1.0. I can't imagine ever needing anything else.


i agree, you don't need anything else, unless you have a small dik


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## Tim_Wells (Jul 3, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> i agree, you don't need anything else, unless you have a small dik


My wife says it's "very average". I take it as a compliment.


----------



## Symfoniq (Jul 3, 2020)

peladio said:


> Dissapointed by the lack of Reaper evangelists..come on guys..



I thought Reaper evangelists were the _reason_ we have DAW wars?


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jul 3, 2020)

Symfoniq said:


> I thought Reaper evangelists were the _reason_ we have DAW wars?


Pretty close to the Truth there...


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## Mornats (Jul 3, 2020)

We just believe we're the best and have won the war without even trying


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## barteredbride (Jul 3, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> ...I think we can stop wasting time and bandwidth by simply agreeing to this.



The irony of all this is that by starting this thread, you´ve started off another huge thread of people arguing about DAWs !


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## dzilizzi (Jul 3, 2020)

All joking aside, I'm usually open to new DAWs and am always interested in learning the good and bad about DAWs. I find things out about the DAWs I have that I didn't know they could do. So I am all for respectful DAW wars. I usually learn a lot during them. 

Wait! @Ashermusic you're not trying to get this put in the Drama Zone are you?


----------



## Michel Simons (Jul 3, 2020)

I have been using Cubase for some 30 years now. Is it overall the best? I don't know. Probably not. But most of all I don't care, because I can't be arsed to learn a new different DAW to find out whether that suits my (lack of) workflow better. A friend of mine with whom I have collaborated uses / used Sonar. Some things seemed to work better than in Cubase, some didn't. His sound engineering friend who also uses Cubase tried to convince him to get Cubase, because we both already used it. I told my friend not to bother and use whatever suits him best.


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## Gingerbread (Jul 3, 2020)

There will never be an end to DAW "wars," or wars about any other subject, for that matter. Because humans are tribal by nature. It's just part of our genetic makeup. We will have these tribal wars until the end of human existence.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 3, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> I have been using Cubase for some 30 years now. Is it overall the best? I don't know. Probably not. But most of all I don't care, because I can't be arsed to learn a new different DAW to find out whether that suits my (lack of) workflow better. A friend of mine with whom I have collaborated uses / used Sonar. Some things seemed to work better than in Cubase, some didn't. His sound engineering friend who also uses Cubase tried to convince him to get Cubase, because we both already used it. I told my friend not to bother and use whatever suits him best.


This is the problem for me. I like ProTools. I've been using it for about 14 years. It is easy for me. I'd keep a second DAW around when I wanted to use a VST only plugin, but mostly I'd stick with ProTools. But they keep raising the price, unless you want to give up your perpetual license. And the more I use midi, well, it can be frustrating at times. I haven't really gelled with Cubase though I use it. Studio One is fine, but it has a lot of the ProTools limitations. So, I'm still looking. Or I'm going to freeze my system.


----------



## Michel Simons (Jul 3, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> This is the problem for me. I like ProTools. I've been using it for about 14 years. It is easy for me. I'd keep a second DAW around when I wanted to use a VST only plugin, but mostly I'd stick with ProTools. But they keep raising the price, unless you want to give up your perpetual license. And the more I use midi, well, it can be frustrating at times. I haven't really gelled with Cubase though I use it. Studio One is fine, but it has a lot of the ProTools limitations. So, I'm still looking. Or I'm going to freeze my system.



I had to use ProTools when I did an audio engineering course between 2004 and 2006. Back then its MIDI capabilities were below par and that's what I needed and still need for my own music (well, what I actually need is talent, but in spite of my dad's genes that hasn't surfaced yet). So it was never an option for me. I also used Logic for a bit back then, but because it was already Mac only (if I remember correctly) and I was and still aren't a Mac kinda guy that too was not for me.


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## jbuhler (Jul 3, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> No, multicore support is still an issue, and Notion was incompatible with i9/Xeon processors, and so I had no notation integration for almost two years. I love Studio One's interface for mixing a regular band, so easy to use, built-in Melodyne so you can edit vocals on the fly and a great built-in Mastering section. But try to work with a huge template for VI work and you've got this:


Yes, this was my experience too. I tried to work on a long movement with lots of tracks and Studio One just couldn't handle it. I still prefer Studio One for smaller projects aside from its lack of articulation maps. But its meltdown during that big project and the corruption of the scratch pads in the project (and the scratch pads are one of its best features) have made me quite leery of using it for large projects.


----------



## jononotbono (Jul 3, 2020)

scoredfilms said:


> Ending the DAW wars? Easy.
> 
> *STAFFPAD!*
> 
> ...



I tried Staffpad about a month ago. It wouldn’t draw in 16th notes and I had a real hard time with it registering hardly anything I wrote on the stave. Hope it’s got better because the experience for me certainly wasn’t like the video.


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## agarner32 (Jul 3, 2020)

It takes a lot of practice, but it definitely works. For me it will never replace a DAW or notation program, but it's pretty useful if you are away from your regular setup. Many will have a different experience, but for me I'd rather do stuff on my laptop in Dorico or Cubase. A laptop isn't really that much bigger than my iPad Pro.

It has gotten better Luke, but I just thought it was way more effort than it was worth - especially for serious work. I'm sure others will disagree.


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## jononotbono (Jul 3, 2020)

Anyway, the real discussion is Mac vs PC 😂


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## José Herring (Jul 3, 2020)

DS_Joost said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> To answer your points:
> 
> ...



Haha!!!!


----------



## agarner32 (Jul 3, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Anyway, the real discussion is Mac vs PC 😂


Well then that's easy - Mac.


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## telecode101 (Jul 3, 2020)

..


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 3, 2020)

Given that we're now on page 6 of this thread, it's safe to say that the answer to Jay's question is no.


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## tmhuud (Jul 3, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Given that we're now on page 6 of this thread, it's safe to say that the answer to Jay's question is no.



What on earth was Jay even thinking starting a thread like this?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 3, 2020)

tmhuud said:


> What on earth was Jay even thinking starting a thread like this?



I was hoping for a thoughtful and intelligent discussion. Silly of me, I know.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I was hoping for a thoughtful and intelligent discussion. Silly of me, I know.


Jay, if you’ll propose a treaty, I’ll sign it and lay down my arms. And my legs.


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## Sean J (Jul 4, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Hope it’s got better because the experience for me certainly wasn’t like the video.



I was frustrated in the first days. It really is more learning curve than anything, as most say who complain at first but stick with it. After finishing my first song, I'm now much faster and get more done in a day in StaffPad than I ever did in Cubase or Studio One.

That's not even counting the workflow not needing expression maps, swapping libraries on the staff, and using speech assist to build templates. That's just writing. AND that's not counting a massive point worth mentioning. Now that I'm always seeing what each part is doing, not just in a sequencer window with useless event boxes... but seeing the macro and micro detail at the same time... my writing has improved significantly. It also makes you realize how much a repetitive ostinato is lazy, stupid, violent, and probably illegal in some places. More than all this... it's a sheer joy to use once you get comfortable with it. I'm never looking back and I'm convinced the next generation of composers will be on StaffPad, especially as it grows.

But I'll admit it... to be fair... there'll always be people who still use DAW's and Windows 3.1


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## Mornats (Jul 4, 2020)

On a serious note, and with huge apologies to Jay for derailing this thread, I honestly believe it doesn't matter which DAW you use. "Better" is different things to different people. Same with Mac Vs PC. It's whichever one you can be productive and creative in that's the best.

I started with GarageBand on a Mac and I'm now on Reaper on a PC. I look at Cubase and it's midi and chord tools and think that looks great and I look at Logic and think it looks like a good all-rounder but I'd rather invest energy in learning more theory and making music than switching.


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## jononotbono (Jul 4, 2020)

scoredfilms said:


> It also makes you realize how much a repetitive ostinato is lazy, stupid, violent, and probably illegal in some places.



Each to their own man.


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## Saxer (Jul 4, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I honestly believe it doesn't matter which DAW you use.


I don't think so. I use Logic but for some projects I switched to Ableton some years ago. Even with the same ideas in mind I got completely different results. I also believe that the way DAWs work in general had and has an enormous influence to pop and EDM music. Even single plugins influence the music. Think autotune, think loops, think quantisation...

It's true: you can do the same work in different DAWs. And most DAWs are similar enough nowadays to make a similar workflow possible. But we know that even the daily weather can have an influence on the music we write. So I wouldn't underestimate the influence of the main tool we are working with. Go to different DAW forums and listen to the music of members. The average output of different DAWs is different. Not a quality difference though.


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## José Herring (Jul 4, 2020)

scoredfilms said:


> It also makes you realize how much a repetitive ostinato is lazy, stupid, violent, and probably illegal in some places.


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I was hoping for a thoughtful and intelligent discussion. Silly of me, I know.



A) You've been here long enough to know better.

B) Imho there's no thoughtful and intelligent discussion to be had because it's an inherently uninteresting topic to begin with, with an obvious answer that most people here already agree on: you should just use what works best for you and you can make good music with any DAW. I don't see the war you're talking about. Except maybe for posts like yours where you told a guy in another thread that you'll ignore his opinion because he called other DAWs inferior, even though it was an obvious joke on his part. Some of the people who claim their DAW is best do it as a joke, some haven't even used all other DAWs to make their claims meaningful, and some have special usecases for which their DAW actually _is _the best, but their usecase may not be yours. If you let those people ruffle your feathers, it's on you imho. I can easily think of a couple other topics that waste far more time and bandwidth on this forum. Like for example how we have dozens of threads on "which string library should I buy", and yet _still _everyone wants their own thread, where they'll get the same conflicting and subjective information as in the dozens of other threads that came before.



Saxer said:


> Go to different DAW forums and listen to the music of members. The average output of different DAWs is different.



That's one of the few points here I think are worth discussing. I could see that to be causal to some degree, but there'll also be a huge degree of correlation based on things like marketing and how certain DAWs get a reputation for being well-suited for different genres. And last but not least, even all music concerns aside, DAWs will appeal to different people based on aesthetics and workflow, and to some degree those preferences will correlate with their taste in music. E.g. I don't see Reaper jumping out as an obvious choice for non-tech-savvy people who just want to record some vocals plus acoustic guitar. You can do that on an iPad with GarageBand and a lot of them probably will. Nothing wrong with that. But if you're a programmer who wants to get their first Djent solo album started, you'll probably feel right at home with Reaper. Even the name sounds metal after all.

Perhaps the most interesting question would be: when does it make sense to invest the time to learn a different DAW for a different kind of project? When does that become a worthwhile time-investment?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 4, 2020)

Seriously-my earliest tracks were done on a two track tape recorder and my first sequencer was Dr T for the Commodore SX-64, so the current state of ALL DAWS amazes me.


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## Geoff Moore (Jul 4, 2020)

scoredfilms said:


> It also makes you realize how much a repetitive ostinato is lazy, stupid, violent, and probably illegal in some places.





josejherring said:


>




Illegal ostinato reported.


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## Living Fossil (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I was hoping for a thoughtful and intelligent discussion. Silly of me, I know.



Discussing DAW preferences in terms of "good" and "better" is a bit like discussing which hair color is the nicest.

What would make sense indeed would be discussing which features of other DAWs one would like to see incorporated in the one you use.

E.g. i recently saw that a feature that i'd like to see in Logic (Midi tools that can be addressed to specific values of a plug in; e.g. an LFO that modulates the ribbon strip of Blackhole) is available in Ableton Live (via MAX for Live).

Another one i still miss in Logic is the Master Track of Cubase (20 years ago i had to switch for two years from Logic to Cubase).

And another one (mentioned quite often) are multiple controller lanes in the Pianoroll.


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## rudi (Jul 4, 2020)

Some things are irreducible - and DAWs are one of them.
It's like asking what wine is best: red or white.
It boils down to personal preference, experience and epistemology.


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## Michel Simons (Jul 4, 2020)

rudi said:


> It's like asking what wine is best: red or white.



Red of course. White isn't even wine. It's lemonade.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 4, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> Red of course. White isn't even wine. It's lemonade.





Living Fossil said:


> E.g. i recently saw that a feature that i'd like to see in Logic (Midi tools that can be addressed to specific values of a plug in; e.g. an LFO that modulates the ribbon strip of Blackhole) is available in Ableton Live (via MAX for Live).


Wait what? Somebody says something nice about my DAW. Team Live +1


----------



## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> A) You've been here long enough to know better.
> 
> B) Imho there's no thoughtful and intelligent discussion to be had because it's an inherently uninteresting topic to begin with, with an obvious answer that most people here already agree on: you should just use what works best for you and you can make good music with any DAW. I don't see the war you're talking about. Except maybe for posts like yours where you told a guy in another thread that you'll ignore his opinion because he called other DAWs inferior, even though it was an obvious joke on his part. Some of the people who claim their DAW is best do it as a joke, some haven't even used all other DAWs to make their claims meaningful, and some have special usecases for which their DAW actually _is _the best, but their usecase may not be yours. If you let those people ruffle your feathers, it's on you imho. I can easily think of a couple other topics that waste far more time and bandwidth on this forum. Like for example how we have dozens of threads on "which string library should I buy", and yet _still _everyone wants their own thread, where they'll get the same conflicting and subjective information as in the dozens of other threads that came before.
> 
> ...



And yet you just wrote a lengthy post about it


----------



## jononotbono (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I was hoping for a thoughtful and intelligent discussion. Silly of me, I know.



Well, one of the main reasons I use Cubase for my main writing DAW is because of the Project Logical Editor and the Logical Editor. It gives the ability to create so many personal controls that are all assignable to any midi device and touch screen. Speeds up work flow. I do wish Cubase had Chunks from DP, real time FX like Ableton, the Audio Editing and HDX capabilities (and plugins such as Serato Time and Pitch) of Pro Tools, the batch export options of Reaper and the stability of Logic (Cubase is actually rock solid on PC so there is that side of discussion which is dangerous ground haha) but I've used Cubase for so long now that it just feels "right" for me. But I'm sure you know this stuff.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Well, one of the main reasons I use Cubase for my main writing DAW is because of the Project Logical Editor and the Logical Editor. It gives the ability to create so many personal controls that are all assignable to any midi device and touch screen. Speeds up work flow. I do wish Cubase had Chunks from DP, real time FX like Ableton, the Audio Editing and HDX capabilities (and plugins such as Serato Time and Pitch) of Pro Tools, the batch export options of Reaper and the stability of Logic (Cubase is actually rock solid on PC so there is that side of discussion which is dangerous ground haha) but I've used Cubase for so long now that it just feels "right" for me. But I'm sure you know this stuff.



Thanks for being one of the adults in the room, that’s the kind of response I was hoping for.


----------



## Akarin (Jul 4, 2020)




----------



## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

Akarin said:


>



Proof again, then when you go to the circus, you have to expect clowns.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Thanks for being one of the adults in the room, that’s the kind of response I was hoping for.


Ah we’ve reached the point of giving people rates now 😂


----------



## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Ah we’ve reached the point of giving people rates now 😂



Yep, I call it like I see it. If I think someone is acting childishly, I likely will call them childish, and since none of them is paying me, I don’t much care if they like it or not.

Those who have been here a while know that his what I have always done.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Yep, I call it like I see it. If I think someone is acting childishly, I likely will call them childish, and since none of them is paying me, I don’t much care if they like it or not.
> 
> Those who have been here a while know that his what I have always done.


One should always stay true to oneself @Ashermusic - just an observation I enjoyed sharing in a thread that strives to end (perceived or real) wars


----------



## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?


----------



## doctoremmet (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?


Good question. Started out with Cubase on the Mega ST. Switched to Windows. Then Logic. Last couple of years it’s been Ableton.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Good question. Started out with Cubase on the Mega ST. Switched to Windows. Then Logic. Last couple of years it’s been Ableton.



I assume that you don’t primarily do orchestral simulation?


----------



## doctoremmet (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I assume that you don’t primarily do orchestral simulation?


Correct sir. I used to use DAWS for midi only (Atari days) and eventually for tracking music with my band. Nowadays I mainly record my own stuff, piano based with light sample based orchestration. So merely a hobbyist speaking here...


----------



## SDCP (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Can we all please agree to stipulate to the following:



No.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Correct sir. I used to use DAWS for midi only (Atari days) and eventually for tracking music with my band. Nowadays I mainly record my own stuff, piano based with light sample based orchestration. So merely a hobbyist speaking here...



Just wondered because while Ableton Live is a terrific app, not well suited for orchestral simulation I think.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Just wondered because while Ableton Live is a terrific app, not well suited for orchestral simulation I think.


Gotcha. Works for me, but as I said; not a pro. I do have Cubase so maybe I’ll give it a try sometime. What I like about Ableton is the Max stuff, which is cool.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Gotcha. Works for me, but as I said; not a pro. I do have Cubase so maybe I’ll give it a try sometime. What I like about Ableton is the Max stuff, which is cool.



Have you checked out Logics new Live Loops that they ....err....were inspired by Ableton to create?


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## jbuhler (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?


Not counting GarageBand, which I used to use for simple projects back before Apple messed up the MacOS version, I’ve used three DAWS on a regular basis: Live (which is still the only piece of software that fundamentally changed how I think about music), Logic, and Studio One. I’ve also dabbled with Reason and Bitwig. These days I mostly use Logic unless it’s small or I know I’ll be needing lots of variants in which case I’ll use Studio One primarily for its fantastic scratch pad and the very intuitive way it handles the arranger track.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2020)

Clearly, the kind of music one likes to do is a major factor in which DAWs we like.


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## Traz (Jul 4, 2020)

I started out on Pro Tools, used it for about 12 years or so. Back then I was only focused on recording bands and mixing. I was always unhappy with pro tools for many reasons though, so I started jumping around and trying other daws. I moved over to Reaper briefly, and at the time I thought it was a total mess and was too much work to get everything setup, as well as there not being any filing system for your Reaper sessions. Maybe there was a way to set that up, I'm not sure, but It frustrated me how it would just have all the session files loosely thrown around rather than neatly organized in a folder like how Pro Tools would do it. I then moved over to Studio One 2. I didn't think it was bad, but ultimately I ended up going back to Pro Tools as it was the daw I knew best at the time. A few years later I started going to Musicians Institute for composition(still am), and in the bachelor program you're required to learn a few daws, and especially if you're a composition student you're basically forced into using Logic(not really.. but kinda really). You're required to learn Pro Tools and Logic and then a third daw of your choice, of which the only options are Ableton and Reason. During my first year I took classes for Pro tools, Logic, and Ableton. I already knew Pro Tools really well so I basically slept through those classes. I think Ableton is really cool and great for sound design and electronic production, but find it's not best for me and my purposes. While taking the Logic classes and learning how to use it efficiently and what it can do, I completely fell in love with it. I felt like I had finally found the best daw for me. I had been using Logic ever since then for the past few years. Unfortunately I found myself needing to get a new computer pretty recently and decided to go the pc route just for the fact that it's much less expensive for the same specs as a Mac. So I've recently become a Cubase user, and I have to say that I really enjoy Cubase almost as much as I like Logic. I think Cubase in some ways is better at some things than Logic, but there are still many things I think are better with Logic. And not to mention that I think Mac is still better than pc, I don't even want to begin to think about all the headaches I've been having with pc. Anyways, to make a long story longer, as someone who has jumped around to almost every daw and has gotten familiar with them all, I can say that they all have their pros and cons and the perfect daw just doesn't exist yet. I will say that Logic, for me, is still the closest thing to the best daw ever. I'm still pretty new to Cubase though and maybe that opinion will change, who knows. 

I should also mention that I also have Studio One 4. It's ok, but again, I don't feel it's great for me.


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## Michel Simons (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?



For my own music I have only used Cubase, starting on an Atari 1040 STE and switching to PC some 20 years ago.

I also have very minor experience with Sonar, ProTools and Logic (in descending order of experience).


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## SupremeFist (Jul 4, 2020)

Started with Cubase in the mid-90s then switched to Logic around 1999 (because of a hitpoint bug in Cubase) and used that ever since. I do wish Logic had multiple cc lanes in the piano roll, and surely a simple preference that selecting a track does not arm it for recording would fix that silly last-core spike problem. I don't wish Logic looked like Cubase though.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 4, 2020)

Started out on Vision, followed by StudioVision...which went away and left me heart broken and forever seeking an alternative that fills the void.

Since then I've tried them all, on both Mac and PC. Still haven't found a perfect DAW to fill my void...though everything today is better in every way then whatever I was using in 1990 from Opcode Systems. Almost every way...

Most of my stuff is getting done on LogicPro now and I think its truly a great program. It has some short comings and I keep looking at alternatives to see whether its worth a switch, and play around with them a bit to see what they can do, but I'm still mainly using LogicPro, because I know it the best. They all have exciting things I wish LogicPro could do better, but within a day or two I will run into things that are difficult or impossible that are easy on LogicPro...so bottom line, they all have some pros and cons... Its always going to be a matter of: do you want to give up A, B and C in order to get D, E and F? Compromise sucks. But that's reality. Unless its a feature you just absolutely HAVE to have...which sometimes is the case for sure...but not always... stick with what you know and just shut up and make music...

*DP* is the one I want to like the most because of chunks mainly, but also the video hit points, streamers, etc. Also the MAS version of VePro plugin just works. 48 midi ports, no VST3 midi problems, etc. It just works. The final nail in the coffin, however, that keeps me from switching over from LogicPro is complete lack of any articulation management system, which for me is how I want to work. So I wait. If they ever add that, I will probably switch over, notwithstanding that their GUI also bugs me, always has and always will. But I would switch in order to get chunks.

*StudioOne* I have been watching, its a fun little program but has a lot of growing up to do before I would be able to switch over to it.

*Cubase* is high on my radar. It has a lot of features that are missing in LogicPro. It has articulation management. It has limitless track counts and folder depths. It has killer midi editor and midi modifiers and transformers and macros. Its a supremely powerful DAW and there is a reason that on this forum it seems most people are either using Logic or Cubase. That being said, yesterday I needed bounce something and after wasting a lot of time trying to figure that out I was never able to get a sample accurate bounce. LogicPro is super easy and sample accurate. But maybe I need to learn Cubase more, there is always that. It does support VST3, which means 48 midi ports of VePro. Multi-timbral tracks are not a mystery, as is the case in LogicPro for some. The Mixer of cubase is frankly awesome. But in the end will i switch from LogicPro? Not sure yet, probably not. There are always pros and cons...and I know LogicPro already, when its time to do a sample accurate bounce it will be done in a minute or two. A long list of pros and cons between the two programs could easily be created and everyone will have their preferences, but both programs are perfectly capable to whatever project you want to throw at them.

*Reaper*? No. nuf said. Is that at troll? Maybe. 

*Bitwig*: Not my thing, but looks interesting, I would check it out if I were more into sound design, modulating anything to anything, etc..

*Ableton*: Not my thing.

*FL Studio*: Not my thing but I've always been curious about it. 

The last three are really entirely different workflows then the DP, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, StudioOne products... And they really should be evaluated as different category IMHO. Certain kinds of musicians will gravitate to the last three I listed and certain kinds of musicians will gravitate towards the first ones I listed.

Anyway, bottom line, I am always looking at all of them and yet...I keep coming to the conclusion...eh...stick with LogicPro. It works not only fine, not only more then fine...but exceptionally well in some cases... shut up and make music. But...MOTU...if you ever add articulation management...I will probably switch back...


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## Sean J (Jul 4, 2020)

Geoff Moore said:


> Illegal ostinato reported.



Sorry, "_CAN_ be lazy" is more appropriate. Of course Beethoven, Bach, Vivaldi, Albinoni, and plenty of Williams all remind us that one can be repetitive and interesting at the same time. Notation just makes it easier to not overlook and forget something that crossed my mind, thus the ostinato remark. Edit: I obsessively argue to rely on your ears more. I'm not a textbook composer... at all. But notation just makes it easier to "manage". It's micro and macro simultaneously.



Ashermusic said:


> On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?



Cubase made more sense than anything, instantly. I tried others for years while working in software myself, came to appreciate UX/UI and dev and learned KSP. But it's not for me. I want to compose or play with Zebra all day. Either one of these things keeps me happy. Both = happier. Both done well = happiest. And doing it in Cubase, while I had workflow gripes, still made more sense. Studio One 4.5 lacks film features, but workflow is genius. It's catching up quickly though, as Steinberg copied several features in 10.5.

So Cubase does the job, but it's worth learning Studio One well enough to use as either in a few months or a couple years, they'll both likely be head to head. Cubase will still have a logical editor and a couple niche items, but once S1 gets film right, the workflow will drive a lot of people to switch. Humanizing alone is vastly more robust. S1 also has a "Cubase shortcuts" default option already. lol

I can use any program you hand me. I'm more interested in the notes than the submenus anyway.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?


I constantly switch. Mostly between ProTools and Cubase now. But I do use Studio One more and more as it is a similar feel to ProTools, but has VST capabilities. I want to like Ableton but it is just a little weird for me as I rarely use the Mix window in DAWs, and it seems like, to use it properly, you need to be in a mix window. And maybe it just needs multiple monitors to use properly. Opening Samplitude gives me blank page syndrome. Reason is another one I want to like. I love the rack. But having used it for years as an instrument only, I can't really get into it as a DAW. I think it needs multiple monitors to be usable also. 

Hmm. What else? Harrison Mixbus - bought on sale for a very low price to use for mastering because it has color. But I forget about it, or more usually, my creations lately don't get to a finished point. Oh, and I also picked up DP9 as a crossgrade when Sonar was going out of business. It also gets the blank page syndrome (not quite sure where to start upon opening) And there's Sonar. Really don't use much since I got Cubase. It was my "use when I have VST only plugins" DAW. I do like how Sonar looks and it was also easy for me to use coming from ProTools. Similar to Studio One. 

I think that is it. Haven't tried Reaper or Bitwig, as they both seem like a lot of work for me. I think I would like Logic, but it would be another Studio One type thing. I like the way you can easily make a sampler with your own samples with it. I need to get the nerve up to change out the drive on the 2012 Mac Mini I picked up a couple months ago so I can try it. 

Is that more what you were looking for?


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## dgburns (Jul 4, 2020)

Cubase, from my humble dabbles at it, is vastly easier to re-work your big template due to the multitrack preset. I am currently trying to update my Logic template, and it could be the way I work, but it’s taking forever.
Why is this a big deal? Because in the past, it’s stopped me from executing ideas on scores where there just was no time to tinkle in the environment, even though I’ve tried every trick in the book to fool Logic at it’s own game. I’m deep in there, and have hacked that app in ways you should not be able to do. But I can’t get past the fact it takes me forever to re-deploy a template. So I start from a scratch one for unusual cues. Hate working like that. I am fast in LPX, I like the density of tracks you can see on screen. I can really MOVE.
I’m a turtle in Cubase. But I can see the possibilities. I can’t get past the lack of multimono upchanneling like PT and LPX can do (although Blue Cat patchwork is appearing to fix this for me). I can’t stand the fact you need to bus a stereo instrument into a quad group just to get it to quad. Messy. I don’t like the lack of surround plugins. Logic is much better here.
I don’t know how you Cubase guys can comp recordings, LPX swipe comp is just so much better, it’s a crime it’s not in Cubase.

still wishing for that hybrid daw


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## IFM (Jul 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?


I have LPX, Cubase, DP, Ableton, and Reason. I’ve never used Reason for anything other than its synths vie rewire and now a plugin. 

DP I first got with OS9 and have kept it around for live shows because of chunks.

Cubase I’ve had since Cubase Score V1.0. After a dongle failure right before a show I switch intoThe PC works for a while with Cakewalk. (Before DP)

Then at some point I tried LP6 or 7. I didn’t use it full time but slowly starting feeling more comfortable with it, then once Apple bought it I was all in. I do have a pristine eMagic hat I got from the rep the year before.

Ableton Live l use for video playback at shows. I tried to use it for my entire show but with pieces that have odd time signatures or tempo changes it’s not that useful unless you are using it it in a linear mode, then why bother. 
So these days I keep them up to date but mainly write in Logic despite that I prefer the way Cubase edits velocity.


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## AR (Jul 5, 2020)

Okay so here are my 2 cents about that...
-Why Cubase and not Logic? ...I started with Logic back then when they supported PC. And then suddenly not. WTF? Stupid Apple concern structure.
-I would use Pro Tools instead of Cubase, because they have better plugins. But they can't get their Midi stuff wright. Plus, back then you had to use Pro Tools dedicated hardware.
-Reaper is too young company in my opinion. I saw companies come and go. So a no deal for me.


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## Mornats (Jul 5, 2020)

Although Reaper is by the guy who did Winamp which has been around for forever.


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## MartinH. (Jul 5, 2020)

AR said:


> -Reaper is too young company in my opinion. I saw companies come and go. So a no deal for me.



The first version of Reaper was released 13 years ago and financially it was kickstarted by the sale of WinAMP to AOL. What more could you possibly want as a "sign of stability"???


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## Geoff Moore (Jul 5, 2020)

AR said:


> -Reaper is too young company in my opinion. I saw companies come and go. So a no deal for me.





MartinH. said:


> The first version of Reaper was released 13 years ago and financially it was kickstarted by the sale of WinAMP to AOL. What more could you possibly want as a "sign of stability"???



I'm waiting to see if this personal computer fad blows over before committing to any DAW.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> b-b-b-but mine's the bestest [weeps, whimpers]


“His ear heard more than what was said to him, and his slow speech had overtones not of thought, but of understanding beyond thought.” (John Steinbeck - Of Mice and Men).


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## gtrwll (Jul 5, 2020)

Didn’t read previous pages, but am I the only one who read the title as ”Putin and end of silly DAW wars...”? Thought he had developed a DAW now...


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## Mornats (Jul 5, 2020)

gtrwll said:


> Didn’t read previous pages, but am I the only one who read the title as ”Putin and end of silly DAW wars...”? Thought he had developed a DAW now...


No, the Ukraine did and he just took it.


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## vicontrolu (Jul 5, 2020)

Composed with Cubase for more than 10 years. Did sound design with Live for another decade. 

About 2-3 years ago I started doing sound design with Reaper. Now I am in the process of switching entirely and ditching Cubase for good (actually I started looking into it cause the lack of support from Steinberg).

My Reaper keycommands are some Frankenstein between Live and Cubase's, with some improvements I always wished in those softwares.

Not for everyone but if you want to dig into it, there's nothing else like it. I am sure you guys heard the story before


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## Babe (Jul 5, 2020)

I'll sum it up; they all suck.


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## Anthony (Jul 5, 2020)

You'd think that people would have had enough of silly DAW Wars

I look around me and I see it isn't so (oh no)

Some people want to fill the world with silly DAW Wars

And what's wrong with that?

I'd like to know

'Cause here I go again

I love...


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## tmhuud (Jul 5, 2020)

Logic and ProTools baby. All the way. Great complimentary programs.


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## Sean J (Jul 7, 2020)

As I said earlier in this thread:
StaffPad and Studio One already ended the DAW war.

Well with *Studio One v5* released today... I'd say dongles are a thing of the past at this point.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 10, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Anyway, the real discussion is Mac vs PC 😂


Nah, leave me out. I can afford my home-built 14-core i9 with 128GB ram and 6.5TB of SSDs, but I don't have enough equity in my home to get the Mac version of that. 

OK, ok, I'll stop... sorry Jay...


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## jononotbono (Jul 10, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Nah, leave me out.



Impossible. You’re IN! You did this to yourself man. Maybe go back to Tascam Cassette Tape if you want out! 😂


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## PaulieDC (Jul 10, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Impossible. You’re IN! You did this to yourself man. Maybe go back to Tascam Cassette Tape if you want out! 😂


Dude! My Tascam 244 in the 80s was SO awesome! I treated it better than my girlfriend...


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## NYC Composer (Jul 10, 2020)

Fostex 4 track for me. Between that, my Akai 612 one shot sampler and the Dr T sequencer for Commodore....I was a legend in my own mind.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 11, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Fostex 4 track for me. Between that, my Akai 612 one shot sampler and the Dr T sequencer for Commodore....I was a legend in my own mind.


244 was a step UP, I started with the Tascam Porta One Ministudio... oh MAN, it even had a pitch control slider.


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## Kevin Thurman (Jul 11, 2020)

I don't care if others use crappy daws. If anything all that does is ensure my music will be betterer than theirs!


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## José Herring (Jul 11, 2020)

tmhuud said:


> Logic and ProTools baby. All the way. Great complimentary programs.


Ain't no school like the old school.


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## Tim_Wells (Jul 12, 2020)

I'm just so happy that we finally put an end to the silly DAW wars:


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## blinkofani (Jul 12, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> 244 was a step UP, I started with the Tascam Porta One Ministudio... oh MAN, it even had a pitch control slider.


I learned the intro to Genesis’ Firth of Fifth with the help of that pitch control, slowing the song downl!! To this day I still play it in G although it’s in B flat really, I just transpose my keyboard up 3 half tones. If someone asks me to play it on a real piano, I’m screwed!!

Blink


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## EgM (Jul 13, 2020)

Back in '86, I used two of these in series as a DAW :D


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## José Herring (Jul 13, 2020)

EgM said:


> Back in '86, I used two of these in series as a DAW :D


It's actually fairly amazing how reliable those things were. That is until the machine ate the tape or something. But, I was always amazing that it worked.


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## bill5 (Jul 17, 2020)

Morbid curiousity: where are these "DAW wars?" I don't see any posts that even hint of it. Already buried?

And are there wookies involved?


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## EgM (Jul 17, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Morbid curiousity: where are these "DAW wars?" I don't see any posts that even hint of it. Already buried?
> 
> And are there wookies involved?



There are no DAW wars. Just people who hate options.


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## jononotbono (Jul 17, 2020)

EgM said:


> There are no DAW wars.



Correct. Cubase is Legion.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 17, 2020)

is there a daw out there that does something that the rest dont? i mean...something NO other daw is doing...


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jul 17, 2020)

I don't know how we will ever end the DAW wars on this forum when I can't even end them in my own heart.


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## EgM (Jul 17, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Correct. Cubase is Legion.



Incorrect. A legion is usually very much smaller than that of the total Cubase users.

On that note, Studio One has very much higher yield these days!


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## DS_Joost (Jul 18, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> is there a daw out there that does something that the rest dont? i mean...something NO other daw is doing...



Far as I know, Bitwig is doing something pretty unique.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 18, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Morbid curiousity: where are these "DAW wars?" I don't see any posts that even hint of it. Already buried?
> 
> And are there wookies involved?



This thread started the DAW wars on this forum.


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## szczaw (Jul 18, 2020)

I find daw chauvinism acceptable. What I use I consider supreme.


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## schiing (Jul 18, 2020)

Late to the party. First off: Jay, I agree!

I'm a DAW serial monogamist. But I always think it's beneficial to keep an eye on the ones I don't use - if only by reading the documentation and following forums.

If there's one takeaway from my 30 years of experience; something that might easily send us into the trenches; it's this: Don't try to force your workflow on a DAW - it's like trying to fight with windmills. I think that might be the mistake that we often make when we compare other pieces of software to "our own."

Now, I'm constantly guilty of trying to shoehorn my habits into architecture that hates it. But the most liberating and productive moments by far have always been when I realize this, and find new ways to approach the issue at hand. Sometimes it puts my DAW in a new and favorable light - other times the compromises are too heavy, and I have to go shopping.

But I definitely think that our stubborn workflow is part of why we become so defensive about our DAW. When we settle into our habits, we're not only defending a piece of software anymore - we're defending our work methodology, our philosophy, our world view!

So I do have some sympathy (and recognition) for the need to fight for your DAW - and every protagonist needs an antagonist. But, as ever, I think the best approach is to keep eyes and ears wide open to everything that goes on out there, because someone/something might enlighten you in ways you never even imagined.

(I'm speaking as a (more or less) full-time hobbyist)


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## vicontrolu (Jul 18, 2020)

DS_Joost said:


> Far as I know, Bitwig is doing something pretty unique.



Like what?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 18, 2020)

Here is the deal. In theory at least, we are smarter than software . (Although with some of you, that is a questionable assumption 😆

So it only makes sense to choose software that comes closest to working the way you want to work and adapting your workflow where necessary. But in the end, they are tools, not religions, and it is in my view, childish toy. Be trumpeting that yours is “the best.”

There is no “ the best”, only what works best for you.


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## Michel Simons (Jul 18, 2020)

My tool might not be the best, but it sure as hell is the biggest.


Oh wait, that's a different forum...


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## BlackDorito (Jul 18, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> My tool might not be the best, but it sure as hell is the biggest.


Hmmm .. by your name it states you actually have a senior member.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 18, 2020)

We are much too refined to have wars here over DAWs. Gearslutz has wars, we have discussions. 

We have more important things to have wars over, like who makes the best contrabass English horn. Yeah. Or was that drippy stuff on the violin really paint or melted mint chocolate?


----------



## José Herring (Jul 18, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Morbid curiousity: where are these "DAW wars?" I don't see any posts that even hint of it. Already buried?
> 
> And are there wookies involved?


They crop up from time to time, raging for page after page after page until people finally find the truth. The real war...is within.


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## jononotbono (Jul 18, 2020)

EgM said:


> Incorrect. A legion is usually very much smaller than that of the total Cubase users.



Cubase is Legion. We are many! 😂


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## Michel Simons (Jul 18, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> We are much too refined to have wars here over DAWs. Gearslutz has wars, we have discussions.
> 
> We have more important things to have wars over, like who makes the best contrabass English horn. Yeah. Or was that drippy stuff on the violin really paint or melted mint chocolate?



Or parallel fifths. Yea or nay?


----------



## Traz (Jul 18, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> Or parallel fifths. Yea or nay?


As a guitarist I'm going to have to say yes.


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## Monkey Man (Jul 18, 2020)

I thought DP was the only DAW.


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## jononotbono (Jul 18, 2020)

Monkey Man said:


> I thought DP was the only DAW.



Clearly your first problem was that you weren't actually thinking.


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## jononotbono (Jul 18, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> Or parallel fifths. Yea or nay?



This should be a thread title. And then made as a sticky. For the rest of time. Make it happen 

I'm always fascinated by the whole, "You can't do this in music" type questions. No parallel Octaves. No parallel 5ths. Says who? Certainly not by the people that write music that connects to millions of people.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 18, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> Or parallel fifths. Yea or nay?


I like parallel fifths. And fourths too!


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## PaulieDC (Jul 18, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I'm always fascinated by the whole, "You can't do this in music" type questions...


Yep. Eddy Grant's "Electric Avenue" in '83 hit #2 in the UK and USA for weeks, only bettered by Irene Cara and the Police.

It. Has. No. Chord. Changes.

Studio musician: "Hey Ed, can you send me the chord changes?"
Eddy Grant: "Sure. Bb."


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## jononotbono (Jul 19, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I like parallel fifths. And fourths too!



No one likes an ass licker.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 22, 2020)

I like parallel bars.


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## JEPA (Jul 22, 2020)

I am a pacifist, I use three DAWs almost every day: Logic Pro X, Reaper 6.x and Mixbus5.

or am I polygamist...?


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## blinkofani (Jul 22, 2020)

JEPA said:


> I am a pacifist, I use three DAWs almost every day: Logic Pro X, Reaper 6.x and Mixbus5.
> 
> or am I polygamist...?


If you’re a polygamist and you see your DAWs as your mate, I hate to be the one to bring you the news, but your DAWs sleep with quite a bunch of other guys!!!


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## chimuelo (Jul 22, 2020)

Polygamy of DAWs. Definitely Mormon-ish.

Anyone know where Bringham Young got his name?

They say he had disciple/body guard types surrounding him 24/7 to ensure he never yearned for anything.
Only having 7 wives at the time, and seemingly bored with them a disciple asked if he might go fetch another wife. The mighty Mormon leader agreed, so it was written, so it shall be done.
The disciple then asked if he wanted an Indian, a redhead, blonde or brunette and the leader simple replied......”Bring ‘em young”......

Ankyu

Get Akai’s free ”Beats” software and find a new perspective in workflow.
Not my first choice for Orchestral, but for any genre, even Jazz, it’s really refreshing and free.
If you like it buy an MPC Live II with 7 hour lithium battery and speakers.
Get inspired outdoors.

Ankyu


----------



## robgb (Jul 22, 2020)

Has anyone mentioned Reaper?


----------



## novaburst (Jul 23, 2020)

Ben said:


> But I think DAWs are like food, different people have different tastes.



I would go further and say more like water,
You may not like something right away or things may be quite complex at first but put time into it or train your self, you often will come to the same conclusion as the next DAW,


Ashermusic said:


> comes closest to working the way you want to work and adapting your workflow where necessary.



I think this is what I was thinking when things become urgent or very important you will find we are more willing to make something work to our advantage and get the job done, 

I think one of the problems and may not be totally bad but I think when it comes down to it we have a lot of choice and options as to what DAW we want and this may course a lack of commitment especially when it comes to mastering any one DAW. 

But when the dust settles we all get the same results, what ever DAW is used, 

But perhaps if we took the time to master all the DAWs we have access to we probably would have nothing but positive things to say about them and perhaps only end up using just one DAW.


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## Ivan M. (Jul 23, 2020)

I hate every daw I used so far ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(ps: didn't use many, though)


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## starise (Jul 23, 2020)

Meh....I'm like the bored monkey at the zoo. I'll take a shot at this because it's there.

I like DAWs so I have quite a few of them. I started out with Cakewalk Pro 9. Not because I did any homework. I was a dumb schmuck who didn't know there was anything else out there. It was for sale in a purty box and I needed a way to make music on my computer. They say ignorance is bliss. This opened up a whole new world for me. I actually lucked out because the program fulfilled it's use to me all the way to the present CbB itineration.
To be fair I don't make huge productions for money presently, not that I wouldn't open that door. I don't really have the desire to make a 200 track Cinematic mix. My mixes are smaller and don't tax a DAW very much.
"IF" I were to decide one day that I was going to be making gargantuan mixes of epic proportions my choice would probably be Cubase. I think Cubase is probably the defacto "large movie mix" DAW not that it can't be done in others. So I guess one's interest in it might hinge on that key point. I have never entered the world of MAC. I dislike their proprietary indulgences."IF" I liked Macs, I would surely look at Logic. For me it would be a no brainer...but I don't like their business model nuff said. 
Ableton actually has a pretty decent midi piano roll IMO. Not my main DAW though.

My go to lately has been Studio One 5. The first nail in the coffin to CbB for me was it lacked any solid notation programming. I began to use SO4 because it fit so well exporting mixes to Notion. The second big nail in the coffin was deeper notation integration, the third nail was when they recently added a dedicated KS lane with the ability to make, import and save KS templates per instrument. There are probably some others that already had it or similar. Since I had SO5 this was a boon for me making programming articulations so much easier. These additions really swung me around to SO5.

Studio One 5 probably still isn't big movie mix DAW software. I don't make big movie mixes....which might be a subjective answer all depending on the composer. BIG is all relative to your needs and the demands of the movie mix I would guess. Never loaded more than about 50 tracks in anything I've ever done..so for me something like Cubase is probably overkill.

Studio One is stable for me and that is very important.


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## tf-drone (Jul 23, 2020)

Hi,

it was a big disapppointment for me when Emagic went exclusively to Apple, with which I will never become friends. Still, Notator was the perfect DAW, back in the 80ies and 90ies IMHO.

I think I could work with any DAW today, if I had to. I tested most of the demo versions. Cubase didn't finish the 9 GB download, I mean, WTF, 9 GB for a demo?

Currently I have Live, Reaper, and Waveform. Live is great but is rather prone to crash. Reaper has a very good plugin management, Waveform is sold with my newly acquired Roli Seaboard. So I have not yet decided. Runner up would be Studio One.

BTW, what about Cakewalk? The website is there, but no way to log in or contact anybody.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 23, 2020)

Cakewalk kind of went out of business. The software got bought out by Bandlab and is now free without the extras. Most people don't need all the extras because they already have them. At least here. You can find it here: https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk


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## starise (Jul 23, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Cakewalk kind of went out of business. The software got bought out by Bandlab and is now free without the extras. Most people don't need all the extras because they already have them. At least here. You can find it here: https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk



CbB as been very good to me . For fast compos I haven't really bested it yet. PC only. I still have all of the additions that were included with the now long gone Platinum version which is considerable. If I'm making notation though I have been grabbing SO5 because it fills that gap and a few others recently.

Lots of people tend to view a DAW as an idea machine or something that gives a person ideas. I don't see it that way. I think it can be helpful to have data manipulation you don't need think about.

Someone over on another forum mentioned Scaler 2 the other day. I don't have it yet, but I do see some benefit to it in manipulating midi into different key structures fast. You can slide midi up/down on the piano roll in many DAWs in chunks or a whole track. This is a time saver and it might shed some light on an idea. I don't see it as getting the idea from the machine, I see it as the machine helped you find an idea that you might not otherwise have found. Only works if a person knows how to do it efficiently.

Something else that I don't think I read about on the subject, lots of people who mention that brand X was a terrible experience for them. I have to wonder if it could have been a hardware issue. While this is still technically a DAW issue it can't always be blamed on the software. If a person gets DAW software, loads it into a laptop that's under powered running 4gb of ram, slow hard drive...these guys can't pull a rabbit out of the hat no matter what DAW it is.

We really have two groups of users here. I think this is likely one of the largest groups of music for pay media people on the web. That is unless there a lot of BS flying around. The other group I put into either the beginner group or those with home studios making music for fun mostly, that's me. I'm not going to attempt to swing my thingie around and tell you I'm something I'm not. I admire the other group because you work hard, you put a lot of time into it and you deserve to be paid well.

I only bring the above up because it really plays into how you choose a DAW I think. There's a huge difference between fun recording and " it has to be in by noon tomorrow" kind of thing. If you loose future gigs because your DAW computer or software crashed you kick yourself in the butt for choosing something that didn't get the job done when you needed it.


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## BradHoyt (Jul 23, 2020)

Quasar said:


> Freedom of religion is a fundamental right. Who are you to say what constitutes a religion and what does not?
> 
> I come from a very long ancestral line of DAW worshipers, who often were persecuted and thus had to keep their studio monitor volumes down very low to avoid detection from oppressive theocratic authorities when practicing their sacred DAW ceremonies. Do we really want to return to those Dark Times?


I believe the name of this ancient religion you're referring to is Cakewalk.


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## Monkey Man (Jul 24, 2020)

You could substitute Opcode's Vision for that as well IMHO... or going back further, SMPTE Tracks / Edit Track, Pro 24, Bars and Pipes...


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## NYC Composer (Jul 24, 2020)

Os Southworth’s Jambox.


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## JEPA (Jul 24, 2020)

Anyone using Sequoia? I know it as the solidest DAW ever. When I got the resources I will afford it.


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## starise (Jul 24, 2020)

Sequoia? The price scared me away, but then I'm not a making $$ on my music. Only 2975.00 US
Sure give me two of those- NOT.

Reminds me of Nuendo. Everyone talks about Cubase. No one talks about Nuendo. Most people who mention Sequoia mention they are using it "at work". I have dealt with Magix in owning ACID and Vegas. Don't let them put their pop up on your browser. Every 15 minutes it's like, buy Vegas 17 and get Vegas 18 FREE. Annoying. On the main Sequioa page they tout Spectral Layers pro which is also in ACID. Not a real a pull for me *shrugs shoulders*. They advertise midi editing too. Wow! I'm impressed. Darned better have that for 2975 quid. I'm sure it's an exellent DAW. I have heard as much. Not sure what else Magix could sell you at that point. Maybe if you buy everything they leave you alone.

Everything is relative here. Grand dads prosperously retired might have it because they wanted it. So far as hobbies go it's still very affordable compared to that 65 foot sail boat. In some circles a 50K studio is an affordable hobby. For most in the real world it's a business investment. Most anything can be justified I suppose. If you need the tools, then by all means jump


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## Andy_P (Jul 24, 2020)

Yes, it is time for War DAWS 
This..is.. Sparta Pro 5!!


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## starise (Jul 24, 2020)

Whenever people fight I prefer to watch.....and save my energy for something productive. If there is no great loss, war is simply rough horse play with no clear winners.. 

Who is the real winner when it comes to DAWs? The person who is making music well with one.


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## Monkey Man (Jul 24, 2020)

starise said:


> Who is the real winner when it comes to DAWs? The person who is making music well with one.


Testify, brother. :emoji_beers:


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## detritusdave (Jul 24, 2020)

I bought my son an i9 Windows gaming laptop for uni/gaming/music production. Due to personal circumstances (which I'm not going to elaborate on), he doesn't get on well with the form factor of a laptop... so he's using my old i7 desktop and is extremely happy.

I, however, now have an i9 Windows laptop plugged into an 4k monitor, right next to my i9 iMac. They are (pretty much) exactly the same specs. Due to my own 'fun' issues, I keep changing between Cubase in Windows and Logic Pro X on the Mac. Sometimes several times a day.... I know I have to sell one of them, if only to end the madness of this.... but I can't bring myself to do it....

My point....? Jumping between platforms/DAWs is wonderful way to procrastinate and do 'busy work' instead of making music.....


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## Ashermusic (Jul 25, 2020)

detritusdave said:


> My point....? Jumping between platforms/DAWs is wonderful way to procrastinate and do 'busy work' instead of making music.....



Exactly. Once you commit to one and learn it well, the more time you have to compose rather than learning another.

The best DAW is the one you know how to employ effectively most.


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## Geoff Moore (Jul 25, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The best DAW is the one you know how to employ effectively most.



I _knew_ the best DAW was FL Studio!


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## PaulieDC (Nov 14, 2020)

ka00 said:


> Hi @jbuhler @PaulieDC
> 
> I'm in the process of switching over to Studio One. I thought for sure this would end these silly daw wars for me. I notice these posts you two made about S1 choking on big projects, is dated prior to version 5. Just wondering if you've found any improvements in this regard with v5 or 5.1, as I'm really loving everything about Studio One so far.
> 
> Thanks!


When I get a chance, I’m going to test version five. I am curious also, I wonder if they did address it. I know Cubase runs very well on my system so changing nothing else I’m hoping the same for studio one. I still have a heart for it even though I jumped ship.


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## jononotbono (Nov 14, 2020)

Just checking but is the war still raging?


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## jbuhler (Nov 14, 2020)

ka00 said:


> Hi @jbuhler @PaulieDC
> 
> I'm in the process of switching over to Studio One. I thought for sure this would end these silly daw wars for me. I notice these posts you two made about S1 choking on big projects, is dated prior to version 5. Just wondering if you've found any improvements in this regard with v5 or 5.1, as I'm really loving everything about Studio One so far.
> 
> Thanks!


No, I haven’t yet made the transition to SO5 for a variety of reasons, the primary one being that Logic has made vast improvements in things that matter to me and it’s currently well suited to my workflow.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 14, 2020)

ka00 said:


> Thanks, PaulieDC!


Juist downloaded the S15 demo. Since I was logged into the PreSonus website the installer picked up on that. I launched the install (without PreSonus instruments) which took under a MINUTE. Then I launched Studio One and a popup box said "Activating Studio One". After about 6 seconds another popup: "Studio One Successfully Activated" (and I can do that on 4 more computers).

*HEY STEINBERG, GET THE HINT!!*

I'll let you know how it goes!


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## rnieto (Nov 14, 2020)




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## Rasoul Morteza (Nov 14, 2020)

Is it only me, or does the new dark mode in PT look like some poorly done high contrast windows theme?...


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## easyrider (Nov 15, 2020)

People are still using Cubase?


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## Vin (Nov 15, 2020)

Yeah, yeah... ᵇᵘᵗ ʰᵃᵛᵉ ʸᵒᵘ ᵗʳᶦᵉᵈ ᴿᵉᵃᵖᵉʳˀ


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## jcrosby (Nov 15, 2020)

Garage Band's the mother of all DAWs. Duh!


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## starise (Nov 15, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Garage Band's the mother of all DAWs. Duh!



Yeah that DNA didn't get very far. 

To the person who asked about larger projects on studio One 5-----For larger track counts there's all that "stuff" a person can do to maximize track counts. I haven't needed it. Maybe we should define what an "average" project template looks like. Minus the bragging lol. Not the largest project you have ever done. The projects you do every week. How big are they?


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## ChristianM (Nov 15, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Nous avons des guerres DAW? Je n'ai pas remarqué. Mac vs PC, bien sûr ... mais les DAW?


PC ?? What ?


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## Ashermusic (Nov 15, 2020)

starise said:


> Yeah that DNA didn't get very far.
> 
> To the person who asked about larger projects on studio One 5-----For larger track counts there's all that "stuff" a person can do to maximize track counts. I haven't needed it. Maybe we should define what an "average" project template looks like. Minus the bragging lol. Not the largest project you have ever done. The projects you do every week. How big are they?



True this. I have huge templates, medium sized, and small and the truth is nobody is hiring me to compose music that needs to use the huge ones, only people hiring me to help them create them


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## PaulieDC (Nov 15, 2020)

easyrider said:


> People are still using Cubase?


Absolutely. I paid for the privilege of having to use the banal Steinberg Key Goofball Dongle and I’m going to get my money’s worth.


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2020)

All DAWs suck. StaffPad is the future y'all

ok I'm mostly kidding... But I'm digging Studio One work flow lately quite a bit. I don't care if no big name composers use it. It's all about what enables me to get the music out there with the least amount of hassle. My Abbey Road Studio One template. Didn't even take too long to throw together.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 15, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> All DAWs suck. StaffPad is the future y'all


But that requires you to be able to draw dots and lines with some kind of stylus. And even worse, dots with holes in the middle! Midi is so much easier.


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> But that requires you to be able to draw dots and lines with some kind of stylus. And even worse, dots with holes in the middle! Midi is so much easier.


Oh and that's not the worst of it. It also requires you to actually know music theory and notation... and a better than average understanding of orchestration... pfft. Who would want that, eh? Too hard and time consuming! Music should be organic, fun, not stuck up on all that icky theory and nonsense... 

LMFAO. 



Sorry, I'm being a bit of a turd today. In all seriousness though, I find I can write infinitely more complex and satisfying orchestral music using StaffPad compared to DAWs. For commercial writing, yeah, DAWs still are the go-to. But for concert works, I'm firmly in team StaffPad.. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 15, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> Sorry, I'm being a bit of a turd today. In all seriousness though, I find I can write infinitely more complex and satisfying orchestral music using StaffPad compared to DAWs. For commercial writing, yeah, DAWs still are the go-to. But for concert works, I'm firmly in team StaffPad.. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.



Funny how notation does that isn't it? I'm quite poor at writing quickly in notation (especially rhythm), but I have found it much easier for working out orchestration than MIDI. I enjoy using Logic's score editor, which then gives me the MIDI too, so best of both worlds. Cubase's score editor drives me insane, but Studio One's is quite good as well.


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Funny how notation does that isn't it? I'm quite poor at writing quickly in notation (especially rhythm), but I have found it much easier for working out orchestration than MIDI. I enjoy using Logic's score editor, which then gives me the MIDI too, so best of both worlds. Cubase's score editor drives me insane, but Studio One's is quite good as well.


yeah Cubase has no excuse for having such a horrid notation editor considering they have Dorico! 

Studio One notation is by far the easiest and aesthetically pleasing to work with.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 15, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> Oh and that's not the worst of it. It also requires you to actually know music theory and notation... and a better than average understanding of orchestration... pfft. Who would want that, eh? Too hard and time consuming! Music should be organic, fun, not stuck up on all that icky theory and nonsense...
> 
> LMFAO.
> 
> ...


I'd prefer using a paper and pencil. I have an Apple Pencil and still have trouble writing with it on the screen. I have Symphony Pro and find it takes forever to get the right type note. It's a pain.


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## MarcusD (Nov 15, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> On a more positive note, how many of you have pretty much used the same one and how many have frequently switched between them?



Started off with FL studio before switching over to Pro Tools. At the time FL had no propper recording capability and PT had a much better mixinging workflow, initially didn't need to switch because I was happy mixing in FL. However, requests to record and produce local artists were becoming more frequent. Switched to PT which made sense.

Stuck with PT for around 3 years, before becoming frustrated with lack of MIDi editing features when trying to produce things for artists and Cubase looked a better option.

Discovered Cubase was both good at MIDi sequencing and recording, with a straight forward workflow. Natrually decided to switch. Been with Cubase for about 13 or so years.


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I'd prefer using a paper and pencil. I have an Apple Pencil and still have trouble writing with it on the screen. I have Symphony Pro and find it takes forever to get the right type note. It's a pain.


StaffPad like any tech does require some workarounds. Once you develop a methodology however, you can move pretty quickly. I'm left handed and I have no issues really


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## PaulieDC (Nov 15, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> All DAWs suck. StaffPad is the future y'all


ROFL! I am still cracking up, three awesome profound words. You know when something just hits you right?? Classic.


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## ok_tan (Nov 15, 2020)

easyrider said:


> People are still using Cubase?


using WHAT?


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## PaulieDC (Nov 15, 2020)

ka00 said:


> Thanks, PaulieDC!


OK, well, Studio One 5.1... been hammering away at it on my existing PC tower (that runs Cubase 11 Pro quite nicely). Last night I downloaded the BBCSO Core template for Studio One, all tracks enabled, and recorded mass amounts of gibberish on a LOT of instruments. About 15 seconds long but doing Hanon exercises on winds, brass, strings, tuned percussion. Then I layered CPU-hungry VSL Synchron CFX, Garritan CFX, and one of the bigger EWHO patches, just continually playing random lines as fast as I can. The short piece sounds like a trainload of screaming geese on fire. I monitored Studio One Disk and CPU as well as CPU performance in Task Manager on Win10 with the latest 20H2 Update.

RESULT: the CPU meter in S15 never got above 20%. Disk usage never even registered. Task Manager in Windows show SIMULTANEOUS cores running, with each barely lifting its head off the pillow. I did not get one audio crackle, not once.

*FINALLY.*

I can say with all confidence that PreSonus has arrived as far as that goes in v5.1! Remember, same machine running v4.6 choked, sounded like Rice Crispies in kerosene.

It's got me thinking: I'm committed to Cubase 11/Dorico/WaveLab on my tower, but do I need Cubase on my laptop? I avoid using it because of all the fuss, digging out the uber-protected Key in order to run it. Why? I know Studio One arguably better, and I run a limited set of VIs on the laptop. This test actually has me thinking to sell my 2nd copy of Cubase 10.5 and the 2nd Key, and just upgrade my v4 Studio One to v5.1 for mobile use. if someone wants Cubase 11 Pro and a Key, maybe I could get 300 bucks for my 10.5 + Key and then they upgrade for 99 bucks, decent deal for them. Hmmmmm, may have to ponder that. I get Studio One back and have the best of both worlds.

Don't you hate it when people think out loud?


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## EgM (Nov 16, 2020)

ka00 said:


> How about that! Great to hear. Thanks for checking it out! I'm noticing S1 is slow to load VEPro instruments, but glad to hear its working well with a variety of locally hosted players.



Maybe your number of Audio/Midi ports per instance are set too high? I prefer low audio/midi tracks and using one full instrument(all articulations) per instance with one midi port/16 channels. Loads instantly


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## samphony (Nov 16, 2020)

ka00 said:


> I'm noticing long project load times with VEPro instruments in S1. I only have three or four so far in my testing template and each one is taking an awfully long time for what's there. Cubase zips through the load process in a fraction of the time. Unfortunately, this does not bode well for my plans to switch to S1. Bummer. It's such a refreshing DAW, and a pleasure to use.
> 
> In another post I see someone suggested limiting midi ports per instance to 8.


The less Midi ports a ve pro instance uses the quicker the load times! Make sure to not use more than 8 Midi ports per instance when working with Studio One (5.1 and below)


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## Crowe (Nov 16, 2020)

The Audacity to proclaim such a thing...



Ashermusic said:


> Can we all please agree to stipulate to the following:
> 
> 1. A DAW is a tool, not a religion.
> 
> ...


----------



## AudioLoco (Nov 16, 2020)

The best DAW is the one you know inside out.

Although I would exclude the ones without Folder Tracks...


----------



## Tim_Wells (Nov 16, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> The best DAW is the one you know inside out.


^^This. It took me several years of swapping DAWs to figure this out. Just find one that meets the majority of your needs and quit worrying about whether the grass is greener.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 16, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> The Audacity to proclaim such a thing...
> 
> 
> The Audacity...


Truth though. They are all tools. Whatever works for you, that's what you should lean on. I find different DAWs excel at different genres for me. LPX is great for groove-based stuff or else atmospheric cues. Cubase works well for orchestral, but I don't like its looping as much. Ableton of course if very groove-based with some excellent tools for audio manipulation. Studio One 5, for me, seems the best fit for my current workflow. I love creating my own presets to grab quickly. It's still missing some features I like on Cubase and its score editor is a little wonky (held notes in a chord don't show up as held over moving notes). But I still dig it.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 16, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> The best DAW is the one you know inside out.



Hey, I said that about thirty posts ago.


----------



## AudioLoco (Nov 16, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Hey, I said that about thirty posts ago.


Sorry i missed that, it's only like 20,000 posts in this thread, can happen...
Good to know we agree 100% though


----------



## AudioLoco (Nov 16, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> ^^This. It took me several years of swapping DAWs to figure this out. Just find one that meets the majority of your needs and quit worrying about whether the grass is greener.



Even if someone in the near future offered me the "best new super duper mega do it all perfect" DAW for free to switch to - I would probably still stay with my DAW. 
Because I have been using it for 20 years and I'm bloody fast and effective on it. I am too old and have very little patience to learn and excel in a new environment. 
The only thing which would make me want to switch is a new communication protocol involving control of every DAW function, including note inserting - by brainwaves, THAT would be amazing!

Steinberg should be already at work at "Cubrane" as we are speaking...


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## MarcusD (Nov 16, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> Steinberg should be already at work at "Cubrane" as we are speaking...



If Steinberg merged Cubase and Nuendo and called it Cubendo. I'd buy it just for the name.


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## Tim_Wells (Nov 16, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Hey, I said that about thirty posts ago.


But think about all the fun you would have missed out on ...


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## mauriziodececco (Nov 17, 2020)

DAW wars are the new game in town; for a real fight, let's discuss vi vs. emacs.


----------



## starise (Nov 17, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> OK, well, Studio One 5.1... been hammering away at it on my existing PC tower (that runs Cubase 11 Pro quite nicely). Last night I downloaded the BBCSO Core template for Studio One, all tracks enabled, and recorded mass amounts of gibberish on a LOT of instruments. About 15 seconds long but doing Hanon exercises on winds, brass, strings, tuned percussion. Then I layered CPU-hungry VSL Synchron CFX, Garritan CFX, and one of the bigger EWHO patches, just continually playing random lines as fast as I can. The short piece sounds like a trainload of screaming geese on fire. I monitored Studio One Disk and CPU as well as CPU performance in Task Manager on Win10 with the latest 20H2 Update.
> 
> RESULT: the CPU meter in S15 never got above 20%. Disk usage never even registered. Task Manager in Windows show SIMULTANEOUS cores running, with each barely lifting its head off the pillow. I did not get one audio crackle, not once.
> 
> ...



You get multiple copies of Studio One Pro 5.1 with one buy. If you own one copy the only upgrade you need is another download onto the lappy.


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## dcoscina (Nov 17, 2020)

starise said:


> You get multiple copies of Studio One Pro 5.1 with one buy. If you own one copy the only upgrade you need is another download onto the lappy.


yeah you get 2 or 4 authorizations . And no e licenser dongle... 

big plus


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## PaulieDC (Nov 24, 2020)

ka00 said:


> How about that! Great to hear. Thanks for checking it out! I'm noticing S1 is slow to load VEPro instruments, but glad to hear its working well with a variety of locally hosted players.


Well, we now know the answer, which daw is best. Answer: ANY of them, it’s all about the wizard, not the wand. So @Blakus decides to mock-up the intro to the Star Wars theme again, this time using the FREE Artist version of Studio One 5 that they bundle when you buy an interface. He did NOT use VEP, he let Studio One run on its own (which he says runs about the same as Cubase now). He used 300 tracks of Konstantinos and Spitfire Player, with custom libraries and a lot of Spitfire’s new Abbey Road One. I mean, he did this with the free version of Studio One, so let’s all shut up about DAWs, pointless argument, lol:

This is nuts.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 25, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> this time using the FREE Artist version of Studio One 5 that they bundle when you buy an interface.



Just to clear the confusion: normally Artist is not free, but Prime. And you couldn't do that with Prime, because that doesn't allow 3rd party plugins. Also Artist only allows 3rd Party plugins as of version 5, before that you had to pay extra to use VSTs with Artist.



PaulieDC said:


> I mean, he did this with the free version of Studio One, so let’s all shut up about DAWs, pointless argument



No, he did not. He did it with the 100 € Artist version (which is still way better than Steinberg's Elements version for the same price or Cubase's Artist version for 300 €).

Actually the only usable free version of all DAWs has Tracktion with it's Waveform free. That has no track and no 3rd party plugin restrictions, only some missing features. And the most unbelievable 'free' (you can't even really get it for free) version is Pro Tools First, where you're also limited with the number of projects that you can start (IIRC 3 or 4) and all are in Avid's cloud.


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## Markrs (Nov 25, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Just to clear the confusion: normally Artist is not free, but Prime. And you couldn't do that with Prime, because that doesn't allow 3rd party plugins. Also Artist only allows 3rd Party plugins as of version 5, before that you had to pay extra to use VSTs with Artist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also Cakewalk is a full free DAW, but windows only.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 25, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Also Cakewalk is a full free DAW, but windows only.


Yes, and there are others, like Ardour or Garageband. I was talking about free versions of non-free DAWs only.


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## Markrs (Nov 25, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Yes, and there are others, like Ardour or Garageband. I was talking about free versions of non-free DAWs only.


Sorry, I miss understood


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 25, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Sorry, I miss understood


No need to apology.


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 25, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Hey, I said that about thirty posts ago.



The problem is, its only true to a point. Sure you CAN do music of any genre in any DAW but some make doing certain types of music more seemless than others.

But more importantly they are not static pieces of software, they evolve over time and all update in various different ways. I worked on Metal Gear, Terminator, Call of Duty to name a few in Ableton Live but I could see very quickly that while I COULD do these gigs in Live, it lacked certain things, like a score editor, or editing multiple midi clips at once, or 5.1 etc that would have made those projects a bit less tedious in certain ways. 

Then I started to watch how each DAW evolved over time and it looked like Cubase was adding features and tweaks that leaned in the direction of media/film/game composers, while Ableton was more focused on beatmaking hardware integration, synths and new fx, plus features and tweaks that seemed to lean towards EDM type composers. Logic always seemed to be evolving towards bedroom songwriters to me, just to add another example. 

And of course these are vast generalisations to a more nuanced topic but I think you can understand why 'The one you know best' doesn't really work when you consider a softwares future evolutionary development. 

-DJ

p.s also worth mentioning that one genre is not superior to others, and Live adding updates for EDM composers isnt the wrong move, it just isnt a move in the direction I wanted my software to grow. I just see more film composer potential in Cubase.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 25, 2020)

No matter _what_ the task I will be faster than some other guy trying to do the same task _if_ he doesn’t know his DAW well. But certainly, some DAWS do certain things better than others and some people know a couple or more well. I lack that ambition. I stick with Logic /VE Pro.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

My problem is every time I try to do something with midi that should be simple in Cubase, like copying a bar, I have issues. I have snap to grid on, but it doesn't. And then my bars are messed up and I get muted notes that can't be unmuted. I never have these problems in ProTools or Studio One.


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## ed buller (Nov 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> My problem is every time I try to do something with midi that should be simple in Cubase, like copying a bar, I have issues. I have snap to grid on, but it doesn't. And then my bars are messed up and I get muted notes that can't be unmuted. I never have these problems in ProTools or Studio One.


HOW !!!!.....it so easy to copy and paste in Cubase. I am confused

e


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## shponglefan (Nov 25, 2020)

Personally, I love the fact there are so many DAWs and that they cater to different musical genres, workflows, live vs studio usage, etc.

On the flipside, it means there isn't going to be a "perfect" DAW that will excel at everything. There are invariably trade-offs.

For myself, I've started migrating from Reaper into a combined Studio One/Bitwig Studio setup. Never really took advantage of Reaper's customize-everything approach, and there are aspects of both Studio One and Bitwig Studio that I really like for different workflows and music genres.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 25, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Just to clear the confusion: normally Artist is not free, but Prime. And you couldn't do that with Prime, because that doesn't allow 3rd party plugins. Also Artist only allows 3rd Party plugins as of version 5, before that you had to pay extra to use VSTs with Artist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You’re right, Artist isn’t free. I was referring to it being free because they bundle it with their audio interfaces, and Blakus mentioned he bought one of their cheap ones and got the software. So if you have to buy an audio interface, technically you can get it for free but you’re still paying for an audio interface.

The bigger point is, look what he pulled off with a version that wasn’t top dollar.


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## KallumS (Nov 25, 2020)

My DAW can beat your DAW up


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 25, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> The bigger point is, look what he pulled off with a version that wasn’t top dollar.



Don't get me wrong, S1 Artist (_not_ the other Artist version from Germany  is now (as they support VSTs) a really good alternative for about 100€, specially since most of the other versions for that price (Reason Intro, Bitwig 16 Track, Cubase Elements, FL Fruity) are seriously limited.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

ed buller said:


> HOW !!!!.....it so easy to copy and paste in Cubase. I am confused
> 
> e


I have no idea. That's the problem. I think the marker thing at the top never properly lines up to the grid. I have what I believe is snap to grid on. But it always acts like the spot mode in ProTools. I'm probably missing some basic thing that they don't bother putting in the manual anymore.


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## ed buller (Nov 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I have no idea. That's the problem. I think the marker thing at the top never properly lines up to the grid. I have what I believe is snap to grid on. But it always acts like the spot mode in ProTools. I'm probably missing some basic thing that they don't bother putting in the manual anymore.


yes they do...It's just a fucking pain to read...but jaysus !!!!!!...this is basic. So make sure your quantizing on Bars ( 1/4) type in the cursor point you want for the front. so let's say I want to copy 5 bars from bar 12 to 17 on some flutes and paste them to the Violins. L12...( that's lect locator to bar 12 ) R17 ( that's right loctor to bar 17 ) Select the scissors. Cut the left and right. Select the pointer..Click on it...Control C......then select the strings on the left hand side ...and Control V...done !..

best

e


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

ed buller said:


> yes they do...It's just a fucking pain to read...but jaysus !!!!!!...this is basic. So make sure your quantizing on Bars ( 1/4) type in the cursor point you want for the front. so let's say I want to copy 5 bars from bar 12 to 17 on some flutes and paste them to the Violins. L12...( that's lect locator to bar 12 ) R17 ( that's right loctor to bar 17 ) Select the scissors. Cut the left and right. Select the pointer..Click on it...Control C......then select the strings on the left hand side ...and Control V...done !..
> 
> best
> 
> e


I'm working in the midi editor. I want to copy a set of notes. Technically, they are keyswitches. But I don't want to copy the full bar because the actual notes playing are different. So I highlight just the notes I want to copy, hit ctrl-C, move the marker to the top of the grid at the next bar, hit ctrl-V, and I get a message "do you want to enlarge the part?" Snap to grid is not an option. It should be, but it isn't. 

Copying full bars in the mix window is usually not a problem.


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## ed buller (Nov 25, 2020)

yes you do want to enlarge the part !

e


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## ed buller (Nov 25, 2020)

you really need to read the manual....sorry but it's a fantastically complex piece of software...it does loads. It's also German which means it's unremittingly exact and logical.....no guesswork. ! "do you want to enlarge the part " is a perfect example of it's teutonic predilection for Voraciousness. Yes you do as you are adding to it...it's just being tidy. You could also just drag and drop. To do that you MUST be in grid mode and the right grid mode too !...so if your first note that your moving falls on an 8th beat select 8th note in the grid...select the midi you want . Hold down alt and drag it to where you want it to go...then let go. 

best

e


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## Michel Simons (Nov 25, 2020)

Always enlarge your parts...


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## ed buller (Nov 25, 2020)

If you really can't stand the Manual YOUTUBE is your friend:



best

e


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

ed buller said:


> you really need to read the manual....sorry but it's a fantastically complex piece of software...it does loads. It's also German which means it's unremittingly exact and logical.....no guesswork. ! "do you want to enlarge the part " is a perfect example of it's teutonic predilection for Voraciousness. Yes you do as you are adding to it...it's just being tidy. You could also just drag and drop. To do that you MUST be in grid mode and the right grid mode too !...so if your first note that your moving falls on an 8th beat select 8th note in the grid...select the midi you want . Hold down alt and drag it to where you want it to go...then let go.
> 
> best
> 
> e


I actually have tried reading the manual. And I do what it says. But sometimes I can't figure out what they mean. Enlarging parts ends up with mute notes and something funny happens with overlapping bars. Holding alt and dragging moves instead of copies. I swear there is something wrong somewhere in my settings or computer that until I figure it out, I will continue to have these problems.

I use ProTools, Cakewalk, Studio One, Reason, and Ableton and have never had the issues with basic stuff that I have with Cubase.


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## Tim_Wells (Nov 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I use ProTools, Cakewalk, Studio One, Reason, and Ableton and have never had the issues with basic stuff that I have with Cubase.


Yeah... At times, Cubase seems to behave different than other DAWs and even other Windows apps. I remember pulling my hair out a lot in the early days. But hang in there.... like anything else you get use to it.


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## dylanmixer (Nov 25, 2020)

I'll always stand by the fact that Cubase is considered "complicated" or "clunky" because of options. An operation you might think should be simple, may not be as simple as you want because Cubase can perform the operation in a million different ways. Once I opened my mind to this, the software actually became way easier to use.

I think the big argument for Studio One is it's "faster workflow" and "ease of use". I understand why that's attractive, but I don't find that it's for me because it simply doesn't have the sheer amount of options or functions that Cubase can actually do. It really is deep software and I still learn something new that it can do every day.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

dylanmixer said:


> I'll always stand by the fact that Cubase is considered "complicated" or "clunky" because of options. An operation you might think should be simple, may not be as simple as you want because Cubase can perform the operation in a million different ways. Once I opened my mind to this, the software actually became way easier to use.
> 
> I think the big argument for Studio One is it's "faster workflow" and "ease of use". I understand why that's attractive, but I don't find that it's for me because it simply doesn't have the sheer amount of options or functions that Cubase can actually do. It really is deep software and I still learn something new that it can do every day.


I need a table. Or spreadsheet. I really think my issues most of the time come down to nomenclature. It is hard to search for a solution when they have a different name than you think it should be called.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

ed buller said:


> If you really can't stand the Manual YOUTUBE is your friend:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you! I was missing the snap to grid toolbar and just had the one on the note size checked. There is a lot of hidden things on this DAW. I think when I got my new computer last year I forgot I needed to add them. It's always little things.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 25, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Don't get me wrong, S1 Artist (_not_ the other Artist version from Germany  is now (as they support VSTs) a really good alternative for about 100€, specially since most of the other versions for that price (Reason Intro, Bitwig 16 Track, Cubase Elements, FL Fruity) are seriously limited.


You are right. And what an option for someone starting out... if they have a laptop, you grab a PreSonus Audio Interface for $100 and it comes with Artist. Add a simple controller like an Alesis V49 and a pair of headphones, then beg Spitfire for a free copy of BBCSO Discovery and for under 300 bucks you can create orchestral music. Bonkers. And if they have an iPad, Artist supports the Studio One Remote app. And not a dongle in sight.


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## AudioLoco (Nov 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I'm working in the midi editor. I want to copy a set of notes. Technically, they are keyswitches. But I don't want to copy the full bar because the actual notes playing are different. So I highlight just the notes I want to copy, hit ctrl-C, move the marker to the top of the grid at the next bar, hit ctrl-V, and I get a message "do you want to enlarge the part?" Snap to grid is not an option. It should be, but it isn't.
> 
> Copying full bars in the mix window is usually not a problem.



Or try ctrl-A/delete/ctrl-S ....

I'm kidding don't!


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> Or try ctrl-A/delete/ctrl-S ....
> 
> I'm kidding don't!


Hey! That works! All my problems are gone...nope still showing up as mute notes. Sigh....


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## chocobitz825 (Nov 25, 2020)

Please stop telling people to just read the manual. Most manuals are poorly written by people who don’t understand the music, don’t understand the software, and/or don’t understand the best ways to convey concepts to people who aren’t programmers/full composers yet.

If you’ve never heard the term quantize before and the manual defines quantizing as “quantizing notes” it may not be clear enough for the user. A person trying to figure out a DAW in depth for the first time will have problems understanding the lingo of a manual. DAWs are less “read the manual” and more “see and do”. Video tutorials and sincere advice and instructions are far more helpful.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 25, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Please stop telling people to just read the manual. Most manuals are poorly written by people who don’t understand the music, don’t understand the software, and/or don’t understand the best ways to convey concepts to people who aren’t programmers/full composers yet.
> 
> If you’ve never heard the term quantize before and the manual defines quantizing as “quantizing notes” it may not be clear enough for the user. A person trying to figure out a DAW in depth for the first time will have problems understanding the lingo of a manual. DAWs are less “read the manual” and more “see and do”. Video tutorials and sincere advice and instructions are far more helpful.



Agreed. New Logic users need to buy a book or e-book like “ Jumpstart Logic Pro X 10.5” by some guy named Jay Asher.


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## chocobitz825 (Nov 25, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Agreed. New Logic users need to buy a book or e-book like “ Jumpstart Logic Pro X 10.5” by some guy named Jay Asher.



Available on Amazon!


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## dzilizzi (Nov 25, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Agreed. New Logic users need to buy a book or e-book like “ Jumpstart Logic Pro X 10.5” by some guy named Jay Asher.


I went looking for one for Cubase. The only one I found that was recommended is really hard to read. I think it is self published, as the the pictures are really fuzzy. It is a little hard to see what he is talking about. Most of the other DAWs have pretty good 2nd party books on how to use them. I haven't looked for one for Studio One yet, but I haven't had any problems that needed a manual yet. 

So maybe not DAW wars but DAW manual wars!


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## pondinthestream (Nov 25, 2020)

I use a few DAWs now. For over a decade, more or less since it came out, it was almost exclusively Reaper but I got sick of a few things about that so now I use Bitwig for VSTi / algorithmic type music and Studio One for more audio based music and sound design / field recording DSP based work. I still use Reaper but more as a utility, not so much for composing anymore. Looks like the new metadata features of Reaper will be handy so that is another nice utility aspect. I could probably switch to Reaper and Bitwig as there is little overlap, but I like Studio One - the online video tutorials are very good and not a bad user forum


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