# Difference between VI forum and composer forums



## Dear Villain (Nov 16, 2019)

I enjoy cross-posting my pieces to composer forums as well as VI, because I feel the different audiences focus on different aspects of the music, with VI (as a generality) members more interested in the technical/production aspects of the music, while composer forums obviously enjoy dissecting the actual music (again, speaking in generalities). Anyway, this was the first wind quintet of 3, that I completed years ago, with my very basic understanding of virtual instruments. I was happy to learn on one woodwind forum that several members thought it was a real wind quintet and wanted the name of the ensemble  lol

I've recently acquired the extended articulations for VSL's winds and was tempted to re-do some of my old pieces, but there aren't enough hours in the day. This version was one of my first pieces where I felt relatively satisfied with the overall sound. As I write for live performers, I'd rather pursue that than to keep tweaking the midi (which, as you all know, is something we can do forever and never be completely satisfied!)

Anyway, the piece was done with VSL's woodwinds in Mir (Schubert Hall, if I recall). There's a lot of counterpoint, imitation, and fragmented motives passed between instruments, creating a "kaleidoscope of sound". The ending chorale was inspired by Holst's Jupiter. Hope you'll enjoy!



Cheers!
Dave


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## Fever Phoenix (Nov 16, 2019)

This sounds really good! Wow, I am very impressed!

Really, man.. and you say this is older?


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## Living Fossil (Nov 16, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> I enjoy cross-posting my pieces to composer forums as well as VI, because I feel the different audiences focus on different aspects of the music, with VI (as a generality) members more interested in the technical/production aspects of the music, while composer forums obviously enjoy dissecting the actual music (again, speaking in generalities).



Yes, this forum indeed is a place rather for technical/production aspects. That's the reason because there is a focus on media music, which is in fact music with a big emphasis on production.
Personally, i see the member area as a place that has mainly two functions: Beginners can get valuable critique and pros can share their know how. The fact that composing is a really sensible and personal thing, specially for young people, sensibility is required in large amounts.
I guess it's not that delicate to give hints or opinions on production technique; in the end it will simply help the composer to get a better rendition of his vision.
The other part is the more difficult one. People have close relationships to their babies. Personally, i even feel physical pain when i hear pieces of other composers that i like that get rearranged in an inappropriate way. That's why i keep away from criticizing the works of younger composers.

Then again, sometimes i ask myself what's the exact motivation behind more experienced composers to expose their work to this audience. I mean, if we a talking about contemporary composition, you can't never ever expect some serious critique in a place where beginners and old pros meet. You have to apply such different sets of relativity that it can't be communicated in an online forum.
As a pro, there are quite simple measurements: in media music, you can see your success in the projects you get hired for. In contemporary concert music, if you are played by lots of good musicians, you are doing it right.
My experience is that while successful pros sometimes like to share their work in order to discuss it etc., forums can also be a place where frustrated artists, longing for more attention, try to play the boss card by assuming that in a place, where a high percentage of the participants are amateurs, they can just demand applaus to feed their vanity for works that indeed have no approval or relevance under real world conditions. And usually, this game ends in bad feelings.

So, after i mentioned contemporary concert music, if there is supposed to be a real discussion, i personally have some expectations to different parameters. In real life, when writing for the concert hall, you are measured by the works of other contemporary composers.
The following are random examples, but they give a realistic perspective (I've included different levels of fame...)


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## Dear Villain (Nov 16, 2019)

Fever Phoenix said:


> This sounds really good! Wow, I am very impressed!
> 
> Really, man.. and you say this is older?



Thank you, Fever Phoenix. It's about 4 years old. I need to correct something above, though: it was put in the Neuer Saal of Mir Pro, not the Schubert, as I mentioned above.

All the best,
Dave


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## Dear Villain (Nov 16, 2019)

Living Fossil said:


> Yes, this forum indeed is a place rather for technical/production aspects. That's the reason because there is a focus on media music, which is in fact music with a big emphasis on production.
> Personally, i see the member area as a place that has mainly two functions: Beginners can get valuable critique and pros can share their know how. The fact that composing is a really sensible and personal thing, specially for young people, sensibility is required in large amounts.
> I guess it's not that delicate to give hints or opinions on production technique; in the end it will simply help the composer to get a better rendition of his vision.
> The other part is the more difficult one. People have close relationships to their babies. Personally, i even feel physical pain when i hear pieces of other composers that i like that get rearranged in an inappropriate way. That's why i keep away from criticizing the works of younger composers.
> ...




Thank you for your insightful and thought-provoking comments, Living Fossil. I found myself agreeing with virtually everything you said, in spite of the fact, that my gut tells me the sub-text/hidden meaning of your words, is actually directed at me in a "I'm not a fan of what you're doing" kind of way  That's perfectly fine! I saw that the youtube video has a total of one dislike and no likes, and that's precisely what I love about sharing music online...it's a good way to discipline oneself not to take their work too seriously!

Anyway, I could offer my own rationale for sharing music online, but I suspect that our conversation would not go very far, as you've already made up your mind about me and my music. Wishing you all the best!

Cheers,
Dave
p.s. nice to see Gubaidulina in your list of works above...I once played her De Profundis for accordion, a monster of a piece that I couldn't imagine having the technical ability to re-visit today! lol


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## Living Fossil (Nov 16, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Thank you for your insightful and thought-provoking comments, Living Fossil. I found myself agreeing with virtually everything you said, in spite of the fact, that my gut tells me the sub-text/hidden meaning of your words, is actually directed at me in a "I'm not a fan of what you're doing" kind of way



Hi Dave, thanks for your answer! 
Actually your thread was activating some reflecting thoughts in my mind, and as such, the sub-text of my answer was directed towards two or three other threads i recently came over on this forum (not threads of you, btw, but one, where i was quite provocative and got some harsh critique in responses... , if you read between the lines, there's a hint...  )

And of course you are right in supposing that my comment is also a reflection of your posted music. However, my inner reaction is not the negative one that you are suggesting [or assuming], but has more to do with my own experiences in recent years (about 25 years ago...).
When i started composing, i head my visions, my heroes etc.
Of course, i was totally eager for all new possibilities, but still, i had my vision.
And then, quite soon i saw, that while everybody spoke about "freedom" in post-serial music, there was quite a rigid corset of acceptance (at least in Europe, where i live...).
Indeed, you could do everything as a composer, as long as your music didn't contain too much non-ironic emotion. You could even write tonal passages in concert music, as long as you made sure it's meant either as a quotation or any other excuse. The moment your exposed emotions were real, it was a tabu. Of course, there were the emotions that passed the unwritten laws of consent. But those didn't resonate with my artistic concerns.
I remember a string quintet i wrote in 2002. It contained lots of microtonal harmonies, lots of really challenging writing. But it also contained some melodic lines. Which had the consequence that the critique only focussed on that aspect. In hindsight, i think, that experience was the reason that i more or less quit writing for concert halls. I'm interested in exploring my visions, but I have no interest in following a framework of allowed stuff and taboos.
Basically, that's it.
The youtube links i posted, contain modern works that indeed give me inspiration and hope.
(The piece by Kranebitter, i guy i personally know, is - in my opinion - the most accuration caption of the social media madness induced by mobile phones...)

So, please don't see my post above as an assumed critique, but rather as the consequence of a stream of thoughts that went through my mind. And by the way, over the time here on VI-C, i've heard a lot of music from you that i really enjoyed. Keep staying creative!


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2019)

No doubt there's a chasm, or at least a dichotomy between the concert world and the media / movie / tv / game world.

Both drive me about equally buggy at times; the concert world for abandoning the mass audience, and the media world for pandering to it or, maybe more accurately, being too time-pressed or lazy to generate something original (or at least personal).

I prefer writing for a mass audience and sometimes I am so time-pressed that feels hard to get past the first idea one has, but I try always to write something I like. Mind you, I like everything from Duruflé to the Sex Pistols, so that opens a fairly wide range.


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## BlackDorito (Nov 16, 2019)

Living Fossil said:


> So, after i mentioned contemporary concert music, if there is supposed to be a real discussion, i personally have some expectations to different parameters. In real life, when writing for the concert hall, you are measured by the works of other contemporary composers.
> The following are random examples, but they give a realistic perspective (I've included different levels of fame...)


Those are real-world examples of modern concert music (European, it seems) which in all cases employ extreme instrumental articulations here and there ... a bit impractical for VI composers. My expectations for concert music shared on this forum (or a 'composer' forum) would not tend toward those types of pieces - which are generally athematic and probably quite tedious or exasperating for most of the forum members. I'm trying to imagine how anyone on this forum would critique those particular pieces, myself included.

There are many examples of more listenable recently-composed concert music that are performed these days - even at new music festivals. Of course, your mileage may vary wrt. 'listenable' - everyone's sensibilities are different. I'd be happy if people submitted more 'concert' pieces here, but when I say that, I'm mainly trying to distinguish them from film/trailer music, which IMO is the prevailing aesthetic here. Broadly speaking, a concert piece would be one where (in relation to film music):
- more ideas could be expressed, not just one simple theme
- there could be multiple movements
- the piece could be longer than just a few minutes
- epic-ness is not required
- ostinatos and pads don't go on forever
- modulations could be other than Hollywood chords and simple IV-V-I
- etc. etc.

Of course, plenty of pieces that are submitted exhibit some of these characteristics ... but you know what I mean. I would hope people could submit a wide range of such pieces which retained themes, textures, structures, etc. that were familiar enough that others here were motivated to comment on them. Bravo to those who have already submitted such pieces.

I do agree that the question of "what is good feedback" is a hard one. Some people want it, and it is obvious that some people just want praise. [Hell, all of us want praise] Other forums may be better suited for good feedback on compositional aspects, but I've also seen great feedback on this forum.


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## Dear Villain (Nov 16, 2019)

JohnG said:


> the concert world for abandoning the mass audience, and the media world for pandering to it or, maybe more accurately, being too time-pressed or lazy to generate something original (or at least personal).



I absolutely love how you stated that, JohnG!


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## Dear Villain (Nov 16, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> I do agree that the question of "what is good feedback" is a hard one. Some people want it, and it is obvious that some people just want praise. [Hell, all of us want praise] Other forums may be better suited for good feedback on compositional aspects, but I've also seen great feedback on this forum.



One thing music critics possess, is an ability to express poetically, their thoughts on music (whether they be positive or negative) in a way that goes deeper than superficial "I like it" or "this doesn't work for me" type comments. Even though I'm surrounded by classically trained "professionals", I find the vast majority of my circle would be as hard-pressed as amateurs to critique music, because it really requires a vast arsenal of technical knowledge, the ability to draw on historical references, highly refined critical listening skills, and a little bit of an ego/God-complex to be able to instantly dismiss the creative work of another individual, often in a malicious and callous manner. Our dear VI forum has a few such individuals, as referenced by Living Fossil. 

And while I agree that we all want praise, I remember a violist friend of mine that simply thrived on harsh criticism. He never wanted a compliment, only to be chastised for every one of his musical shortcomings. He reminded me of Silas from the Davinci Code 

Dave


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## Living Fossil (Nov 16, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> Those are real-world examples of modern concert music (European, it seems) which in all cases employ extreme instrumental articulations here and there ... a bit impractical for VI composers.



I took the opportunity of the title of this thread to do kind of a reality check, which of course comes with some provocative aspects... However, i really like those linked pieces, even if they were quite spontaneous random choices.
I also think, in order to keep a realistic touch to real world requirements, it's a good thing to get familiar with solutions [i.e. works] that one can embrace him/her-self. It's that kind of inspiration that can help you getting more resonance.

But, if we dig deeper, of course there is the question of the positioning between artistic vision - main stream audience - aesthetical paradigms .
And, honestly, i think our time is quite f*cked when it comes to culture.
We experience the coexistence of unleashed neoliberalism that only cares about the maximisation of profits and an art scene that behaves in such a dogmatic way that contemporary concert music [and every non commercial form in arts] is more or less a completely irrelevant factor.

To care about the artistic value of a composition also means: believing that a piece of music has an inner meaning that is bigger than its outer form of appearance. And to my understanding this thought (which i fully support) is the main motivation behind this thread. The motivation of a true artist to reach as many people as possible is not the longing for praise, but the confidence that his/her works transports valuable information on an emotional/psychological level.


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## Fever Phoenix (Nov 17, 2019)

guys, I love and appreciate this discussion.

The difference(s) in media and contemporary classical music reminds me of the difference between live theater and tv/movies or even more, people who are representing and living these or in those worlds.

It is amazing to me how one disrespects the other while in the meantime wanting to crossover into the other world. I am not saying this is how it is, but there are certainly strong tendencies. 

I say that as I work for both mediums, live on stage and from the studio.

In the end there is so much to learn and that fact I love.

@ Dave about my feedback:

yes, if I want to I can hear flaws in the work you posted or I can hear the VST, but for the most part I was surprised that someone, coming from the 'classical' corner sounds so well. As in many examples classicaly trained composers have marvelous composing skills, but manage to butcher production and the in your face "midi sound feel" makes me abort the act of listening 

Also that, no set oppinion, but an observation.

Great exchange in this thread, thx everyone.


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## Hywel (Nov 17, 2019)

Just out of interest, which composer forums do you recommend?


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## Dear Villain (Nov 17, 2019)

Fever Phoenix said:


> @ Dave about my feedback:
> 
> yes, if I want to I can hear flaws in the work you posted or I can hear the VST, but for the most part I was surprised that someone, coming from the 'classical' corner sounds so well. As in many examples classicaly trained composers have marvelous composing skills, but manage to butcher production and the in your face "midi sound feel" makes me abort the act of listening



It's funny you mention this. When I started composing full time five years ago, I had come from a performance background, and was only equipped with Finale. I did my first string orchestra piece, and got the G.P.O. playback as convincing as I could, submitted the score and Finale "performance" to a friend that got it to the orchestra's conductor. He liked it and programmed it for the following season. On the night of the concert, we did a pre-concert talk, and during it, he said to me how even though the midi was crappy, he could imagine the piece coming to life.

I then started thinking about how times had changed. When I was in university, it was all about being able to "hear" the work by simply looking at the score. I suspect that as technology advanced, the younger generations have developed an expectation of stellar productions in everything, including simple demos. The V.I. forum is living proof...there are many amateur composers whose access to sophisticated libraries and production tools allows them to produce great sounding stuff, while many classically trained composers are satisfied with running their pieces through Note Performer or simply creating a Finale/Sibelius playback file.

Once I started trying to improve productions, the thought process was that the vast majority of my music won't ever be played live, and I owe myself the best sounding/most convincing performance I can create, because we should take pride in our work and be able to live with what might be the only "performance" of a piece we'll ever get.

The irony here, is since that event five years ago, many of the musicians I've worked with have actually expressed frustration to me with how good virtual performances have become. The principal cellist of a symphony told me that she and her colleagues lament the future because composers are "replacing them." I told her that is ridiculous, but to be honest, there were a few occasions where I received live performances that were nowhere near well-enough rehearsed, and led to embarrassing end results. That same cellist was involved in such a performance, and thankfully, playing it a second time a few months later, the piece "almost" lived up to the midi performance 

In any case, my choice to spend so much time on mock-ups is a personal one. Many composers (especially classical) can't be bothered with this tedious process...but I do hate hearing the "but, I'm a composer, I shouldn't have to worry about production" argument, because "ain't nobody gonna do it for you, so get on it!" lol

Cheers!
Dave


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## BlackDorito (Nov 17, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Once I started trying to improve productions, the thought process was that the vast majority of my music won't ever be played live, and I owe myself the best sounding/most convincing performance I can create, because we should take pride in our work and be able to live with what might be the only "performance" of a piece we'll ever get.


I shared on a recent separate thread that I am having this same 'conversion'. This is a conversion for concert-oriented composers, not production-music folks who know their end product will accompany some other media. In order to change the goal in this way, it is essential (for me at least) to know that there are places where the music can be shared in digital form, since there may never be a physical performance. It's quite a reorientation and not necessarily recognized outside of the small coterie of forum dwellers. I mean, when your relatives come visiting and say "So ... what are you doing with music these days?" Instead of saying "Big News ... I got 'XXX' piece performed by the YYY Symphony Orchestra", you would be saying "Big News ... I got 76 Likes on Vi-Control!" WHat ?


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## BlackDorito (Nov 17, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> One thing music critics possess, is an ability to express poetically, their thoughts on music (whether they be positive or negative) in a way that goes deeper than superficial "I like it" or "this doesn't work for me" type comments. Even though I'm surrounded by classically trained "professionals", I find the vast majority of my circle would be as hard-pressed as amateurs to critique music, because it really requires a vast arsenal of technical knowledge, the ability to draw on historical references, highly refined critical listening skills, and a little bit of an ego/God-complex


I think you are right, even though I am a bit suspicious of the idea that anyone can be the arbiter of musical taste and value. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (the 'Flow' dude) has a good book called "Creativity" where he presents a model of creative work of a person within a 'domain' (music, in this case) and a 'field' (the arbiters within the domain - teachers, curators, collectors, directors, programmers, critics, administrators). I think the model breaks down when you have such diffused forums that are available on-line these days, but it does bring up the question of who on VI-Control is an arbiter and how they got that way.


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## Dear Villain (Nov 17, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> I shared on a recent separate thread that I am having this same 'conversion'. This is a conversion for concert-oriented composers, not production-music folks who know their end product will accompany some other media. In order to change the goal in this way, it is essential (for me at least) to know that there are places where the music can be shared in digital form, since there may never be a physical performance. It's quite a reorientation and not necessarily recognized outside of the small coterie of forum dwellers. I mean, when your relatives come visiting and say "So ... what are you doing with music these days?" Instead of saying "Big News ... I got 'XXX' piece performed by the YYY Symphony Orchestra", you would be saying "Big News ... I got 76 Likes on Vi-Control!" WHat ?



And this is exactly, to answer Living Fossil's question as to the motives of experienced composers sharing their works here. Writing music is a form of communication. If we see a person talking to themselves (and especially answering themselves!) we know it's strange. If we write music, with no intention of exposing it to people, it will live in a vacuum and I just don't see the point of devoting my life to writing music only for myself, even though I'm the first audience member that I'm aiming to please.

The other reason for sharing here is that while I always try to get live performances, the problem is many times they are far away from where I am and I miss attending. Further, the ones that I do attend are always filled with smiling faces that wouldn't dare suggest they didn't like what they heard. It's nice to get more unfiltered comments online than one would get in person. People can actually take the time to listen, (sometimes multiple times) and craft a response. In person, it's always just a quick, "that was great." 

Another point: I play the classical (free-bass) accordion, and have lived a life immersed in classical music, surrounded by "legit" musicians...always trying to prove the merits of an instrument that most people know nothing about (apart from its more traditional uses in folk music, etc.) When I started my performance career, most audiences that attended concerts were not hugely in to classical music. I saw my role as inviting audiences in to the world of classical music without the expectations and pretentions that exist in the big city concert halls. Even if an audience can't understand what you're doing, there's value in sharing it. People will always get SOMETHING out of the music, and if you approach the process from one of genuine sharing, and not trying to be "better than your audience", you'll win them over to music they may otherwise ignore...and you'll further be rewarded by their kind response to what you're doing.

Just my two cents,
Dave


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