# "short story long"



## IvanP (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi guys, ok...here s the story:

Long time director with whom I've done most of my short films ask me once more to score his brand new story. First draft, I give him some music that makes the story pretty surprising, uncommon and makes people think. music references, new minimalism, morton feldman, small ensembles. I'm just being coherent with the art direction, since it is set up in a very cold, modern house, with rothko paintings and such. Story talks about lack of communication in family structure.

He rejects it on the spot, saying that he wants a short film that can win prizes (he lives out of his awards) yet he sells himself as a "world changing" story teller wannabe. So i ask him to temp the short with references, and he mixes thomas nman with forrest gump. 

Since then, i've been following the temp track, but...girlfriend adds to the equation. on certain days, it seems that my 1st draft was better, that music is too happy. I go back to an "in between" melancholic-uplifting thingy...it works, but it's not enough...

He constantly ask me to use a certain part of demo 1 + 30s of demo 2, etc... You get the point...he says that music is good, but not gret enough to make people cry...

So...given that he's completely destroying both my creativity and coherence by directing almost every muscal step (with the addition of his girlfriend's) opinion, I'm thinking of quitting in a friendly way.

he always promised me thst when he'll do the feature film, I'll be scoring it, but everybody knows how that works...since he produces his films, he finds it much better to rely on making short films by underpaying his staff, instead of budgeting for a bigger venue.

The piint is tht, so far, I've done more tests than music snd it's becoming more frustrating as more projects come in and I won't be able to spend mo' time with trying to understand the award winning music he's dreaming of.

I would like to know your opinions or advices on this kind of directors and what would be the best solution...stepping back, letting some other composer to finish the job, or...?

thank you, guys!

Ivan


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## Hal (Jan 20, 2011)

well according to my personel experience sometime quitting is better then being kicked out !
for me,bad payement,a director who doesnt know what he wants and he doesnt like what u do while keeping on asking too much-will end up in a fight


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## IvanP (Jan 20, 2011)

Thank u Hal, even at the expense of losing a potential "feature film" client?

It certainly wouldn't help quitting now that the "next project" should be the feature film...though tht was the case 3 years ago and 4 short films earlier...

I know, I know, it's up 2 me, but I wond if ther's a dummies diplomatic 101 walktrhough for this kind of situation in which directors want to control absolutely everything, even pitch even if they know nothing about music...

Thks


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## Markus S (Jan 20, 2011)

IvanP @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> .he says that music is good, but not great enough to make people cry...



Haha, had that one, too! I feel you, it's a very difficult situation. Morten Feldman is a great reference, probably not very mainstream, but I think it's a very interesting direction. What is a pity is that with all the rewrites and the pressure, music doesn't really have a chance to become great or even better than before. I think great music is probably written spontaneously and in confidence with the director/client. I'd say give it a break (if you don't want to let go), if the time allows it. Let him think it over, don't write anything new for now and take a new approach later, it will probably seem more clear.

Good luck!


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## synthetic (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe you're being too hip? Try something poppy like Yanni or James Horner. People love that stuff.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 20, 2011)

I'd bail out of this one. If he's not loving your work on this short film, then he's not going to hire you when he does his feature. He's going to consider his feature film to be too important to use anyone he's not convinced is perfect. Producers/Directors are soooo quick to dump all the people they owe favors to when they do their "big" film.

Of course, maybe it's possible that after more revisions, he will love what you're doing, but ultimately, the payoff/risk ratio doesn't look that good to me.

That's the thing with these sorts of situations . . . It's all a gamble. Probably nothing good will happen if you keep working on his short film. But maybe something will.

Tough decision. But if it were me, I'd bail out.


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## autopilot (Jan 20, 2011)

Sounds awful - we've all been there... 

All I can suggest is take him out for a beer. And then have a few more. 

Everything's about relationships.

See where it gets you.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 20, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> I'd bail out of this one. If he's not loving your work on this short film, then he's not going to hire you when he does his feature. He's going to consider his feature film to be too important to use anyone he's not convinced is perfect. Producers/Directors are soooo quick to dump all the people they owe favors to when they do their "big" film.
> 
> Of course, maybe it's possible that after more revisions, he will love what you're doing, but ultimately, the payoff/risk ratio doesn't look that good to me.
> 
> ...



+1. I was in that situation only once, bent like a pretzel to make the guy happy; he came over and micro-managed every cue; he said he was happy; 2 weeks later, he threw out the score.

I year later he was no longer a producer but in the marketing dept.


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## midphase (Jan 20, 2011)

Life's too short for this type of nonsense. When people are paying you mucho $$$$ then feel free to bend over backwards and say "aaaahhhh"...but until then you have to draw the line somewhere.

Drop out.


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## kid-surf (Jan 20, 2011)

Ditto the bros who say fuck this guy...


I'd tell him this: "Your project should make people cry WITHOUT my music if you are any kind of director. My music will then make them cry MORE. Go do your fucking job so that I can then do mine..."

I'd say it just like that. Okay, maybe not exactly like that, but that would be the gist of it. 

Your dude sounds like he doesn't have the first friggn' clue about what he's doing, otherwise, he'd know what to ask for and how to get it out of you...instead of running you in circles. 

These types of fools are why I split from composing. I'd bet money that his writing is horrible which is the reason he can't fund his big flick. 4 short films in and this guy should have found that financing by now if he's any good. I doubt this guy will ever do a feature or take you anywhere. Also, these type often bail on the guy who did their shorts anyway.


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## Markus S (Jan 21, 2011)

kid-surf @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> "Your project should make people cry WITHOUT my music"



Well put, I guess that is the point about it.


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## impressions (Jan 21, 2011)

from the few films i made, i can say that it depends really on how much you can learn from that experience(especially if they're paying). we all had those struggles but when we do find what the director wants we get one more step at being a better composer. if you're counting on his artistic direction-however commercial, which is actually good IMO since we want to get more money out of composing and not only small budgets, and you think he is onto something more serious than just another artistic experiment no one will ever come near to, then you should definitely stick around, and see if you can nail it.

i like these kind of challenges, but i avoid them if i can, since its more headache than cash. to sum it up again-unless he pays you and you can learn from it there is no point doing it.


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## IvanP (Jan 21, 2011)

Markus S @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> kid-surf @ Thu Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > "Your project should make people cry WITHOUT my music"
> ...



Totally agree...the difficult part is that he's the director, producer and writer...and well, the short is precisely good, but not great! But he seems to assume that it's the music that needs to lift it up...I truly believe my 1st draft was precisely interesting enough and different to cause an emotion, but I do not think his story is tear dropping...and the actors are terrible!

the bad thing about everything, here, is that I'm in a no win situation...if I quit, at least it won't be my fault if the short fails to win those awards...but goodbye to scoring the feature...

If I stay, and the short would not win anyway those awards - hopefully not because of me, but I'm sure he'll be thinking it's my fault - it's goodbye anyway and bad reputation...so goodbye to scoring the feature anyway...

well...bummer.

Thank, you guys, I'll be prolly dropping on this one...I'm pretty calm, surprisingly 

Best, 

Ivan


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## IvanP (Jan 21, 2011)

synthetic @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Maybe you're being too hip? Try something poppy like Yanni or James Horner. People love that stuff.



I did! the answer was either: that sounds like braveheart! (I guess it's because I used a solo harp and...wow...lydian mode!)

I went on to the limit of plagiarizing the forrest gump cue he used as temp...same orchestration, piano, strings, I-IV shit, you get the idea..."oh, that's way too happy)...

I improvised the most shitty lydian-emotive after-lunch tv movie riffs during the emotional part, and he said...YES!! That's what I want. Ok...I tried to compensate with clever and more interesting orchestration, some counterpoint, etc... "That's just too padish" (well, u know, it's meant to be underscore, under dialogue...are u expecting a trumpet?)...."why don't you go back to your 1st draft, where you used such nice moments of silence and tension" (he said back then..."no no no, I don't want those silences there...just fill the scene, fill, FILL...")

Damn!


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## IvanP (Jan 21, 2011)

impressions @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> from the few films i made, i can say that it depends really on how much you can learn from that experience(especially if they're paying). we all had those struggles but when we do find what the director wants we get one more step at being a better composer. if you're counting on his artistic direction-however commercial, which is actually good IMO since we want to get more money out of composing and not only small budgets, and you think he is onto something more serious than just another artistic experiment no one will ever come near to, then you should definitely stick around, and see if you can nail it.
> 
> i like these kind of challenges, but i avoid them if i can, since its more headache than cash. to sum it up again-unless he pays you and you can learn from it there is no point doing it.



I totally agree...I know it's tricky and I think I can understand why he doesn't seem to be convinced, but I'm sure that even If I put the most emotional Williams LSO recorded cue from ET or any other drama he scored (he's mostly Williamish) the scene will NOT work the way he wants...the actors are lame, his arc is too predictable and naïve...the only way out was to underscore it as a different film, with an unpredictable score...then you would get attention...but doing it in a commercial way will not only draw NO attention...but it will even make it more pathetic! and it would be my fault...("that scene is prolly too much emotive and cheesy, prolly because of its music..." would people say should I stick to his arguments)

We once had the same discussion on another short film he did...I asked me for Jazzy elevator music whereas my approach was more sound designish...the short didn't work at all and he agreed he should have listened to me, but he just got scared of being too experimental, because he's been experimental before and it didn't work...so he thinks that with an experimental direction and writing + conventional score (as compensation), it will work much better...now picture an Iñarritu flick with a JNH score and you'll get the idea on his point of view, scale minus 2000, of course 

Well, maybe it might work, but not in this case, dammit!

Dunno if I'm just being plain stupid or if I'm right to behave this way...


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## midphase (Jan 21, 2011)

"the bad thing about everything, here, is that I'm in a no win situation...if I quit, at least it won't be my fault if the short fails to win those awards...but goodbye to scoring the feature... "

Do you have a contract that gives you a right of first refusal on his first feature film? If not, I think you've already said goodbye to the feature (unless you're the only composer available). Plus you have no idea if this guy will ever make a feature...it's the proverbial carrot that he keeps dangling in front of everyone to pull in favors.

He sounds like a hack, the fact that you mention that the actors are terrible tells me everything there is to say. A director who doesn't know how to cast or how to direct the actors into good performances is a hack.

Drop this guy and never look back knowing with full confidence that he will never go anywhere.


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## Stevie (Jan 21, 2011)

Oh geez, under these circumstances (bad actors), imagine what the feature would be like. Drop it and smile


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## IvanP (Jan 22, 2011)

Actually The actors are more or less ok, to be really truthful, one is quite good, the rest normal, Except one, a model who's probably acting for the 1st time and she delivers this line "dad, my baby lives in the toilet" just in the emotive climax...the fact is that the line is already cheesy enough and that she acts like an amateur when she's supposed to cry makes it look like a soap opera. The rest is more cleverly written, but imo that moment is just screwed. The bad news is that's the climatic point. It's not necessarily the director's fault since the co-producer insisted on casting her. 

So, my guess is that the director is aware that this is bad stuff, but since he's the writer he wont' be blaming himself. Since he's also the editor, he won't blame himself either or try to remove that line. Instead he thinks that music will save it by being conventional and emotive. Naturally, not only it doesn't work, but it actually makes the scene pretty funny, so IMO, the only way of doing it right is by either minimising music (and thus making it look a little more real) or being more interesting and less obvious in the climatic musical cliché he wants, which means looking for alternative orchestration or voice leading...
In any case, i can't seem to make the scene look GREAT, but how to explain him that I may not the one to blame?

What bugs me is that it' things like these that will make him destroy a relatiò H   ¿§Ï H   ¿¨ H   ¿´ H   ¿´[ H   ¿¾" H   ¿à H   ¿å\ H   ¿åv H   À! H   Àˆ H   À9 H   ÀW H   À	 H   À


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## JohnG (Jan 22, 2011)

well, it does sound awful, but even though reading your post makes me agree with the "get out now" vote, it's very hard to be sure in making a recommendation since we are not there.

If this were in the USA I would immediately suggest you drop it, as I agree with what Mike Greene and Kid-surf said -- if this were LA I wouldn't carry on, because this is the body language (over here) of someone who is not going to take you with him.

But perhaps there are other things going on:

*1. The guy is very ambitious artistically and not so interested in commercial success. AND he is talented, even if all his actors aren't geniuses. *If that is true, it can be interesting to pursue things a little further just as an exercise. Of course that is frustrating if he's just egotistical and demanding a far higher level of artistry from you than himself.

*2. You are still learning (and after all we all are still learning) and you have a feeling there is a magic bullet for this film if only you could find it.* I scored maybe 28, maybe 30-something short films. Some of my scores were really quite good, some were not very good. One makes me cringe as I sit here thinking about it. I still learned a lot from each one.

Either way, I think you have nothing to lose by taking a risk, ignoring all the instruction, and writing something you, personally, think is perfect. What I mean is, when you described the modern house with the Rothko-style art, I completely responded to that as informing your music. Perhaps, given your post, you've already "done that," and so maybe it really is time to move on. But if not, if you held yourself in check; if you've been shoved back and forth (as you wrote) to the point where your creativity is gone and you are just trying to please the guy, maybe you don't have anything left emotionally or mentally to create anything fresh, or a variation on your first effort because you are hearing all the instructions you've been given. Maybe one last bold shot is worth it, especially if it's not too much music.


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## IvanP (Jan 23, 2011)

Thank you, everybody, your input is just great...you guys rock 

Since I can't spend more time with this, I just offered a one-to-one additional session in my studio to try and fix things, letting him manage time himself and just...pray that, hopefully, he'll be a little happier after it...

The best thing that could happen is that he would do another short, hire a different composer and face the same difficulties he had on this one, in the hope of being able to understand what his flaws are, and, maybe, appreciate a little more of the composer's work...:s

Thank you, everybody 

Ivan


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