# Mixing Beginner, Help with Muddy mix and general EQ



## ChrisUK (Sep 4, 2015)

Hello everyone! I have been composing for a while now but the overall mix does not sound that great. I feel the mix always sounds muddy. I have done my fair share of research into it and have tried some Eq.

Here is an example of something i composed (not complete):



I think Cinebrass is the problem and i was reading about splitting a six horn section into 3 part (2horns) and going a three part harmony (1:05). I feel is still sounds muddy despite slightly increasing the High pass in cinebrass effects and doing a reductive Eq at about 300hz. What am i doing wrong?

Even on past tracks just using the Cinebrass legato's it sounds muddy. The Eq i have done does seem to Help. But i don't understand why it still does not sound as good as many other people's. Also people say how they can use it 'out of the box'... I can't!!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Sep 5, 2015)

Hi ChrisUK
Your sound is OK so far! But you need to differ between the close solo instrument and the orchestra.
Listen to this Youtubetrack: 

Listen to the soloists and to the orchestra. The soloists sound shiny and close, the orchestra sounds darker and farther away.
The Mix above shows this in a beautiful way. Compare the voices of the choir with those of the soloists... a huge difference.
Nevertheless, the mix does not appear muddy, doesn't it?

*So how to improve your mix?
1.* Let the sound of the orchestra of your mix how it is but *bring the piano more in front*. Use an effect so that it sounds (much) more shinier - either *an EQ, an exciter or something similar.* I would also *reduce the wet amount of the piano reverb* and you could *try to reduce the low piano frequencies a bit*.
*Aim: The piano should sound (much) more shiny.* The key touches and all these things must be clearer...
*2.* If you mix it with a DAW then route the whole orchestra on a group-/bus-channel so that you are able to adjust the volume of the orchestra with just one slider. Now make sure that the piano sound never "dives below" the sound of the orchestra. Take into account, that in reality an instrument in front of others not can suddenly disappear behind those which are farther away. So keep it in front in the mix as well.

A lot of success
Beat


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## ChrisUK (Sep 5, 2015)

Thank you for the advice! I have gone back over the piano and i realised i was using a "soft" preset + extra reverb so i think i have improved that. I am in the process of building a new template so hopefully i can introduce so techniques into that. I think part of my problem is not mixing with monitors, i use ATH-M50 headphones and i have read that you should not mix with headphone (i cannot afford monitors/acoustic treatment as i am still at school!).

I also have one more question, I also have a pair of £40 sony headphones and the mix sounds slightly muddy on them and generally a bit different, compared to my studio headphones. I was wondering how other composers maintain a good mix universally though out different audio playback devices?

Lastly thanks for your advice, it really means a lot from a young composer trying to improve!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Sep 5, 2015)

ChrisUK said:


> ... (i cannot afford monitors/acoustic treatment as i am still at school!)...



No problem my dear. I have a solution for you. On the one hand use your Studio Headphones ATH-M50 and on the other hand buy or wish from Santa Clause or somebody else the Logitech Z200 http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/multimedia-speakers-z200?crid=47 (29US$)
They sound greater than great for their price!!! ...and if you are in the sweet spot of the 60° triangle you have no problem to make out any position in the mix. And also: They have not those cheesy sound which a lot of such speakers usually have! Even if they seem to have two speakers the lower one is a passive diphragm. So the music comes from one spot = optimal for listening to "room matters". 
Use these Logitechs for all the "Room Tasks" in your future mixes.

BTW: I just listen to your example once more - through my Z200: Your piano is not focussed to a certain position it is anywhere from left to the right. So until now it has nothing to do with the orchestra. You should make it a bit more mono and you also should use a reverb over all (the orchestra and the piano). But then you need to play the piano itself without any reverb. This will glue the piano and the orchestra more together and improve your mix in the meantime even more - towards more reality.




ChrisUK said:


> I also have one more question, I also have a pair of £40 sony headphones and the mix sounds slightly muddy on them and generally a bit different, compared to my studio headphones. I was wondering how other composers maintain a good mix universally though out different audio playback devices?


With your ATH-50M and the Z200 you have all the tools you need for the moment. If the mix sounds well - also with the Z200 - it will with HiFi systems as well.

All the best
Beat


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 5, 2015)

Hm. Well Beat, you know from previous threads that I don't think the triangle has to be equilateral. You definitely want to be in the center of the speakers, but to me the ideal listening distance varies with different monitors, rooms, and especially with your preference.

I certainly agree with the rest of your advice, though.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Sep 5, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Hm. Well Beat, you know from previous threads that I don't think the triangle has to be equilateral. You definitely want to be in the center of the speakers, but to me the ideal listening distance varies with different monitors, rooms, and especially with your preference.
> 
> I certainly agree with the rest of your advice, though.


Hi Nick

Chris finally will have an "about-triangle" >50cm-50cm-50cm< with those little Z200 Desktop-PC-speakers - or even less. 
So I'm sure that he will automatically search for the "right sweetspot" with his head - without any measuring tape . 
No problem.

Beat


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## rayinstirling (Sep 6, 2015)

Stavists all lined up in a row. The OP will find us so obtuse.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 6, 2015)

What are Stavists?

We're obtuse, but my fingers can't help ranting when I see what I consider conventional misinformation being promulgated. 

Anyway, Beat gave ChrisUK some good fundamental advice. That wasn't obtuse.


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## jrrshop (Sep 6, 2015)

ChrisUK said:


> I think part of my problem is not mixing with monitors, i use ATH-M50 headphones and i have read that you should not mix with headphone



Mixing on headphones is difficult (or impossible) with regards to reverb and panning. However, many libraries are preset with excellent reverb and pan settings (ProjectSAM comes to mind) so you can actually get away with it if you get your levels right.

Also, FWIW, ATH-M50's are excellent headphones but they have a lot more clarity and a lot less bass than most consumer headphones. If you haven't calibrated yourself to them yet, that could certainly be contributing to the "problem".


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## rayinstirling (Sep 6, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What are Stavists?
> .
> 
> .


'Just mixing with my mind, Nick.
I agree, the advice is generally good concerning monitoring and I've already given similar comment on another thread including my thoughts on using headphones.


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## ChrisUK (Sep 8, 2015)

jrrshop said:


> Mixing on headphones is difficult (or impossible) with regards to reverb and panning. However, many libraries are preset with excellent reverb and pan settings (ProjectSAM comes to mind) so you can actually get away with it if you get your levels right.
> 
> Also, FWIW, ATH-M50's are excellent headphones but they have a lot more clarity and a lot less bass than most consumer headphones. If you haven't calibrated yourself to them yet, that could certainly be contributing to the "problem".



yeah, i think that is the problem! I have got into the process of switching to my Sony MDR V55's whilst mixing and it seems to have helped keep on track of the base a bit more. Hopefully i can switch to monitors soon, and also try out the Z200 that beat recommended, by thanks for helping me out!


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