# Do you ghost write?



## wonshu (May 5, 2006)

Simple question, just trying to get a feel for what people do to earn money as I know some people over in LA who make their living ghost writing.

Cheers
Hans


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 5, 2006)

Well, I didn't want to spill the beans this early but... Star Wars III? All the fight scenes? Yep, that was me.  
















(huh, I meant *Stat Wars III: The Curve*, of course) :oops:


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## Craig Sharmat (May 5, 2006)

You may wish to clarify what is ghost writing.

If one works for another composer but still earns residuals on cue sheets and can post the credit on a resume, does that classiify as ghost writing?

I f one is doing very little pro work, then they are probably not ghost writing, so the pole is flawed. If you had put how many full time pros do ghost work and clarified what you consider ghost work is, then you might get more meaningful results.


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## Christian Marcussen (May 5, 2006)

I would think that ghost writing per definition is uncredited?


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## Daryl (May 5, 2006)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri May 05 said:


> You may wish to clarify what is ghost writing.
> 
> If one works for another composer but still earns residuals on cue sheets and can post the credit on a resume, does that classiify as ghost writing?
> 
> I f one is doing very little pro work, then they are probably not ghost writing, so the pole is flawed. If you had put how many full time pros do ghost work and clarified what you consider ghost work is, then you might get more meaningful results.


Also remember that from time to time some orchestrators are faced with a few blank bars and the instruction "Make it big, dear boy...!". Is this ghost writing or orchestration?

D


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## JacquesMathias (May 5, 2006)

Everything i know is that i WANT work with orchestral music. OF course, it is what i'm doing. :wink: But i would do something like that, no problem. We need start, so start where you can, and keep arming to the stars. But, i also would like to understand what could be considered "ghost writing"...When you "ghost writing" to some composer, do you keep some credit? Is there some kind of deal where you orchestrate, compose (sometimes) and just get paid for that? With no possibilty to use it in your credit list?

If someone could explain i would apreciate!

Regards.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 5, 2006)

All of what you ask is possible. Every deal is different depending on the show and or the composer. Deals can range from no credit and nothing on the cue sheet, to full co-composer status, screen credit and full writers share. there are no exact deals.


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## Daryl (May 5, 2006)

And sometimes ghost writers are hired for their discretion, so they won't tell you what they wrote (and who for) anyway!

D


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## JacquesMathias (May 5, 2006)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri May 05 said:


> All of what you ask is possible. Every deal is different depending on the show and or the composer. Deals can range from no credit and nothing on the cue sheet, to full co-composer status, screen credit and full writers share. there are no exact deals.




Thanks for answering Craig.

Do you think that it could be a good start point to someone? I mean, In your personal experience, have you ever heard about someone who was a "ghost writer" became a famous composer? ( I mean just getting job like a composer ).


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## Christian Marcussen (May 5, 2006)

Daryl @ Fri May 05 said:


> And sometimes ghost writers are hired for their discretion, so they won't tell you what they wrote (and who for) anyway!
> 
> D



Indeed - and as mentioned I beleive thats part of the definition of a ghost writer...


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## Ghost Boy (May 5, 2006)

JacquesMathias @ Fri May 05 said:


> Do you think that it could be a good start point to someone? I mean, In your personal experience, have you ever heard about someone who was a "ghost writer" became a famous composer? ( I mean just getting job like a composer ).


Jacques,

I'll give you the benifit of my mistake and say, no, backup writing exclusively is not a good start for someone that wants to be their own composer. It may seem like it beforehand, and someone may even make certain promises to you, but it's not. Yes, there are some composers who are now famous that used to ghost - in fact one of them was my mentor - but they did not become famous or successful *because* of it, but rather in spite of it. In other words, they eventually broke out. The one good thing a backup writer can point to as being favorable besides the money is the experience of knocking out cues. But not being able to talk to anyone about it can tie you in knots if you are signed to a restrictive deal - so much so that it can adversely affect your health. And once you start, it can be difficult to break free, because now that's how you make your living. The good thing is that you work in increments of 4 to 6 weeks on average, so if you're signed with a few guys, you may do about 6 pieces a year, and this leaves you with weeks off between films.

The only people that are satisfied doing it for a long time are people that just want to write, but don't want to do all the schmoozing, and it's a good place to hide if you're on the shy side. One of the best backup guys in town is now in his 60's. He's written some of the finest music you've ever heard on film, and sadly, no one that doesn't also do this stuff has likely heard of him. He's an NDA guy, and a real hermit type to the point of almost being a shut-in, so he does what he does.

There are as many different deals for ghosting as there are composers who hire them. The most restrictive are the ones with NDA's. These deals also happen to be the most lucrative. Depending on how high-profile your guy is, you'll make two to three times what an orchestrator will make per 4-bar page. Of course, there is some overlap between what orchestrators do and what backup guys do. When you ghost, you normally orchestrate your own stuff (though not 100% of the time). And every orchestrator has to fill in quite a few blanks themselves, but they do not compose nearly to the extent that ghosts do. Most ghosts have either orchestrated officially as well, or even do this concurrently with backup writing, but others prefer the consistency and non-nomadic life that you don't get as an orchestrator.

Anyway, there is huge ghosting in this town, but the vast majority of it no one is ever going to know about. It would cause quite the scandal. I'll leave you with one extreme example. Believe it or not, this is a true story. Back in the 90's, an A-list film composer was talking about his two backup guys with another composer, and he cynically joked that he ought to let them do a whole film for him, because his guys were really good and he had two back-to-back scores in front of him. Then it turned from a joke into a dare, and he did it. So, the very next film, he wrote the main theme (including the main title) and told his guys what concept he wanted for the music (basically, "make it like such and such a film that we did last year), and pretty much the rest of the score was ghosted. Everyday, the composers sent their notation files to the mockup artists who then rendered it up for the "composer of record" to check. But like I said, this is not typical, but does demonstrate what a weird and cynical business this can be. Most things here are pretend anyway. No one has their original teeth and actors in their late 20's get plastic surgery to look younger.

Hope this helps.

-GB

P.S. Later on when I get back to the computer, I'll try to answer the other question about the various definitions of ghosting and outline the most common approaches to this freemason-like secret society. :razz:


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## Evan Gamble (May 5, 2006)

wow, what a story! :shock:


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## choc0thrax (May 5, 2006)

Ghost Boy @ Fri May 05 said:


> A very famous film composer (*not* JW or Goldsmith), back in the 90's, was talking about his two backup guys with another composer, and he cynically joked that he ought to let them do a whole film for him. Then it turned from a joke into a dare, and he did it. So, the very next film, he wrote the main them and told his guys what concept he wanted for the music (basically, "make it like such and such a film that we did last year), and the entire scored was ghosted. Everyday, the composers sent their notation files to the mockup artists who then rendered it up for the "composer of record" to check. And by the way, the film was a big hit! But like I said, this is not typical, but does demonstrate what a weird and cynical business this can be. Most things are pretend here anyway.



Awww I wanna know what score.


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## JacquesMathias (May 5, 2006)

Ghost Boy @ Fri May 05 said:


> JacquesMathias @ Fri May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that it could be a good start point to someone? I mean, In your personal experience, have you ever heard about someone who was a "ghost writer" became a famous composer? ( I mean just getting job like a composer ).
> ...




Hey Ghost!

Thanks for spend your time making these comments. I really would like to know more about this "ghost world". I think that this kind of information would be very useful for all here. I really would like to know more about HOW the "movie's music business" works...

I feel also that is better spend your time trying to build your career on your own. I have a similar problem. I'm working like an engineer/Producer/ Arranger for 10 years. I started working in it because it was a great oportunity to learn more about mixing, mastering, arrangements...etc...An it WAS nice. Many real strings and brass recordings...Some conducting experiences...Knowledge about mixing...The great problem is that i need this projects to my livehood. That is because from now, i expect to choose the right way, i DO NOT want spend more time in such projects.

By the way, i'm with Choco. Can you say the score's name? :wink: I guess not.


Best!


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## kid-surf (May 5, 2006)

Ghost Boy --- I feel like I might know you, do I?  (maybe you can't answer that :mrgreen

Anyway....

*"Most things here are pretend anyway."*


Yep agreed, I've often said that in these online discussions where folks are going on and on about being "legit" and "true" [to the craft] and all the other _honorable_ stuff that is all but meaningless when you get down to it --> ($$$$$$$$). I mean, we're talking about Hollywood. Movies are "fake", right?  

Long as it screens well initially, goes on to make the director and everyone else more money, better fees, better jobs and so forth. That's the main goal. A "HIT"....

Well... I don't have a problem with how fake this stuff can be. That's Hollywood......

I'd say you are a realist GB....

Kid-


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## wonshu (May 5, 2006)

Sorry for not checking in, I was working outside (oohhhh spookie... people...) 

Well, yeah, there are several options, I know that there are people who program sounds for composers which I (falsely) consider ghosting, but it could be called backup, I don't know.

I know I programmed something for some B-movie guy in LA a while back. He hasn't returned any mails or money, but hey, I don't hold grudges 

I consider this ghosting although it's not the same as "composing" and coming up with a genius motiv like for example the clarinet (or was it an alto?) in JW score for Catch Me If You Can.

So ghosting to me (!) is programming non-"original" or better non-genius (hehehe, I know, but you may get what I mean) material for someone else.

Cheers
Hans


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## Ghost Boy (May 5, 2006)

First off, I hope the extreme case I described in my previous post will not lead to any speculation as to what film or what composer. In that case I'd very much regret having told it, and it would be unfair to any composer's name that might come up since it would just be guesswork at best.

Anyway, I'll describe a few approaches to the actual *normal* process that goes into backup writing when working with a certain type of composer. This is the most "positive" form of ghosting I can describe, because I'd like to avoid overly negative territory.

This composer's name is Bolt Upright, and he is a very talented fellow. He can write, orchestrate, and conduct - all of it - what you might call the real deal. But as probably most here already know, the only problem is that the production schedules invariably get pushed back, though the release dates seldom do. Time constraints being what they are, he needs plenty of help.

Consider that orchestrating a high-density action cue with lots of kinetic energy at, say, 168 bpm can be a real bear. 3 minutes of that will run over 30 pages, and each page can have hundreds of notes. "Colla" indications have saved many people from the funny farm, but the physical part is easier now for those who have converted to computer notation. If you want to give yourself an idea of what it's like and happen to have not done this kind of thing before, get 30 pages of score paper or open up a full score template in your notation editor. Write typical action textures averaging about 75% tutti on each page. Lots of 16ths, runs, motives, figures, hits, pointillistic kinetic stuff, overlapping heterophonic stuff, and lots of doubling for tonal strength, all of it idiomatic for the instruments and everything dynamically balanced and fully articulated. When you see how long that it takes to finish all 30 pages, and consider that something like this would ideally have to be very good and often have to be done in about 24 hours with little or no sleep, you get the idea.

So let's say that Bolt Upright has got a score due in less than 4 weeks with 90 minutes of music, and that the A group is 110 pieces.

Scenario #1 would be that the composer of record would write all of the themes and/or motives, and sketch out most or all of the *main* cues on 4 to 8 staves on average (or as little as 2 or as many as 12), and then pass those along to a handful of orchestrators. The remainder of the cues might be subtle underscore, dialogue underscore, segues, and maybe a few somewhat more prominent cues. These are handed off to the backup guy - and maybe it accounts for about a third to 25% of the music in the finished score. The backup guy scores these cues from scratch, and may or may not orchestrate them as well depending on how much time there is.

Scenario #2 would be that as before, the composer would write all of the themes and/or motives, the main title, and then sketch out about the first half to two-thirds of pretty much all the cues. This sets the tone and approach of each cue, and then the backup guy comes along and finishes each cue in the same manner established by the composer. How far the composer goes into each cue is really just dependent on how fast he's got to chew through the work in order to make the deadline. In cases like this, the backup guy may or may not orchestrate in full score, but may instead write in reduced score format, after which each cue is handed off to the orchestrator(s). It's a case by case thing depending on a number of factors.

Of course there are other composer types besides Bolt Upright, and various levels of ability, be it related to style, genre, speed, fluency, so on and so forth, but this at least gives a basic idea into one type of situation. And I guess it's obvious to say it, but one of the most important components of this is being able to subdue your own composing style and choices while assuming the composing personality of your employer - in this case, Bolt Upright - even though you will inevitably not agree with every aspect of the composing personality you have to assume.

-GB


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## wonshu (May 5, 2006)

Hey Ghost Boy,

thanks for the input, just to clarify: I don't find ghosting morally, artistically or in any other way iffy. As a matter of fact I think it is the only way finishing stuff.

So, yes, I would also like this thread not becoming about the moral issues or about what person ghotsts for who, I don't care, no one really cares! And if someone cares that person should think about the responsibility and demand on a person from those kinds of jobs and think what they would do.

BTW: it's a business and in business the first rule is: do what you have to yourself and buy the rest.


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## midphase (May 5, 2006)

I just IMDB'd Bolt Upright....I didn't realize he scored such classics as Bolt Wars; The Upright Stuff, For a Fistful of Bolts, Mission Upright 3 (aka M:U:3) and the unforgettable Trading Bolts.

You are right GB, he is a genius!


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## wonshu (May 5, 2006)

LOL


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## Ghost Boy (May 5, 2006)

I probably won't say anymore about this issue since it is a bit of a strange subject, but I mainly wanted to answer the question of what it is and whether it is something you should consider doing extensively. A little bit of it can be good for the money and shouldn't be problematic career-wise, but settling into it as your main or only thing is not recommended unless you are looking for a place to write and hide at the same time.

Good luck with everything!


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## wonshu (May 5, 2006)

How could you forget:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0003068/

Shame on you... shame... double shame, no quadruple shame.


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## José Herring (May 5, 2006)

Love the stories Ghost Boy!!!

I've suspected it all along and often get criticized for saying such things. 

Well dude with your new Ghost account you can tell all the Ghost stories you want.

Jose


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## jc5 (May 5, 2006)

[schild=1 fontcolor=191970 shadowcolor=238E68 shieldshadow=1]Will ghost for money[/schild]

:wink:


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## JacquesMathias (May 6, 2006)

Thanks GB.

I apreciatte your input. Very useful. I think you are a realist, like i try to be all the time. We, like artists become so sentive many times, losering the straight contact with the real business, that is what we really need to do :wink: Of course, i think you are absolutely right. Thanks again. 
And please, keep bringing us your stories and examples. It helps a LOT.

Best!


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