# Batman!! elfman!!! full score!!!! out now!!!



## korgscrew

http://www.omnimusicpublishing.com

Ordered as soon as I got the email!


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## Jetzer

Do they send to Europe or is it US only?
Wasn't there some issue with distribution to places outside US with the last score? 

Would love to have it though 8)


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## korgscrew

Worldwide for this one 

Im in the UK.


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## rgames

Good catch - thanks!


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## Jetzer

Thanks! Ordered


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## The Darris

I just woke up and got the email as well. Can't wait to read through this awesomeness!!


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## quidam

Wow, thanks!


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## Casey Edwards

Thanks for the heads up! I'd love something like this for Shirley Walker's music as well!!


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## The Darris

I talked with Omni a while back to ask questions about future scores as well as provide some feedback. This was their response:



> Thanks for the feedback! Yes, Batman is forthcoming, it should be ready early next year. Then there's another one that will be available July 1st, but Omni can't legally advertise what it is until June 1st. It's a good one - stay tuned . . .



So there you have it. Mark your calendars and favorite their site.


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## Studio E

I kicked myself hard for missing Edward Scissorhands. I ordered this one minutes after getting the email


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## jleckie

Casey Edwards @ Fri Feb 07 said:


> Thanks for the heads up! I'd love something like this for Shirley Walker's music as well!!



Since it contains all 51 cues then you ARE getting a lot of Shirleys work as well.


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## Casey Edwards

jleckie @ Fri Feb 07 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Fri Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up! I'd love something like this for Shirley Walker's music as well!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since it contains all 51 cues then you ARE getting a lot of Shirleys work as well.
Click to expand...


I don't doubt that, but I was alluding to the early 90's animated series music.


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## dannthr

Ordered.


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## apessino

ORDERED!! THANKS!!!

8)


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## reddognoyz

Steven Smalley yes?


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## njO

I just visited the Omni website, and ....wow....this sold out over night! New print is on its way though. But this should really give an indication that there really are a demand and a market for film scores out there. In that perspective, I'm glad it sold out and happy to wait for a 2nd print. 

Nils Johan


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## Studio E

So why are there so many more tracks in the book than what are available on iTunes and Amazon? Where would I be able to hear the rest of them?


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## IvanP

njO @ Sun Feb 09 said:


> I just visited the Omni website, and ....wow....this sold out over night! New print is on its way though. But this should really give an indication that there really are a demand and a market for film scores out there. In that perspective, I'm glad it sold out and happy to wait for a 2nd print.
> 
> Nils Johan



:mrgreen: Glad I ordered mine...I was sure this would happen.

Keep'em coming!


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## korgscrew

I wonder how many copies they made?

200 for the first run? Cant believe it sold out over night! Glad I bought my copy quick! 

Hopefully this will show the studios that there is money to be made out of Soundtrack cue books!


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## MacQ

Studio E @ Sun Feb 09 said:


> So why are there so many more tracks in the book than what are available on iTunes and Amazon? Where would I be able to hear the rest of them?



Because this is the entire score, all cues (from what I understand). You can hear them all ... in the film.


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## pkm

According to the site, "Contents include all 51 music cues from the film, several of which were written but never included in the final cut."


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## Shubus

Accorind go the site, they are currently SOLD OUT, but expect a new batch soon.


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## Jetzer

Mine arrived today! Very happy with it, looks great.


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## mverta

I think this is a fantastic offering, and a great part of any reference library...

..but my God the typesetting is painful - it's like the whole score is proportionally spaced. I got a headache in 10 minutes. A curious blight on an otherwise must-have!

_Mike


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## G.E.

Why don't they offer it in pdf format as well ? It doesn't make sense to me,especially now that they've sold out all the copies.


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## bryla

Because of rights.


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## Studio E

It would be nice if they offered it in a larger format.


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## jleckie

How small ARE the pages? Does anyone have a photo of something to scale the book by? I am an old fart and if its too small I won't be able to read it.


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## rgames

bryla @ Fri Feb 14 said:


> Because of rights.


Really? They got the rights to print the score but only at a certain size? That seems odd - why would the copyright holder care about the print size?

It's a standard page size - not as small as those Dover miniature scores but the same size as the other Dover scores. Yeah, it's small on the page, but it's a pretty standard size. It's comparable to one of the Dover Mahler scores - the full orch sections in those get small, too.

I would never conduct from it but it's fine for study.

rgames


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## ed buller

big scores have to be rented. That's revenue. Study scores are for study. I suspect they are very strict about format and size.

e


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## bryla

My answer was to the PDF question. 

Mike can you show a photo of how bad the spacing is?


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## G.E.

Copyright? Okay but... What exactly is the logic behind that ?
They don't want people sharing it with others online? If someone wanted to do that,there's this thing called a scanner which I'm sure almost everybody has ...So it could be easily done.

Maybe I'm missing something...But never mind.I see that it's back in stock now.


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## Shubus

2nd Printing of Elfman's Batman score it available NOW. Ordered!


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## Wes Antczak

Yep, second printing is available now. Just saw the email.


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## Wes Antczak

reddognoyz @ Sat Feb 08 said:


> Steven Smalley yes?




Actually Steve Bartek afaik. But yes, also Shirley Walker and Steven Smalley.


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## RiffWraith

bryla @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> My answer was to the PDF question.
> 
> Mike can you show a photo of how bad the spacing is?



The spacing isn't that bad, but it aint that great either. Unlike the SW/HL conductor scores - which are 10.5 x 14, this is 9 x 12. So it is a bit smaller than that, yes. The biggest thing for me, is it is not spiral bound - like the JW/HL scores. It's the other type of "solid binding" (not sure what to call it), so you can never have the book be completely flat on the table. Kinda annoying.


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## dannthr

I've seen worse at this size--I like the precision and the bright white paper--Most scores this size tend to be messy with ink-bleed which can make close voicing difficult to read.

I like the typeset, but you do need good lighting.

But I prefer 11"x17".


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## Wes Antczak

Ugh! Yeah, not ideal, but I have several classical scores that I believe are this size. I think I have Rites of Spring that is this size... and a few others that are even smaller. Definitely not ideal, but I can live with it. 

Or perhaps I should I say...

Ugh! Yeah, not ideal, but I have several classical scores that I believe are this size. I think I have Rites of Spring that is this size... and a few others that are even smaller. Definitely not ideal, but I can live with it. 

:wink:


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## Jetzer

RiffWraith @ February 15th said:


> The biggest thing for me, is it is not spiral bound - like the JW/HL scores. It's the other type of "solid binding" (not sure what to call it), so you can never have the book be completely flat on the table. Kinda annoying.



True, this is a bit annoying. I don't have any problems with the size though.


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## synergy543

Does anyone know who did the actual orchestration on this? On the CD it says its produced by Danny Elfman and Steve Bartek. Additional orchestrations by Shirley Walker and Scott Smalley. 

Hard to know who did what though.


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## korgscrew

synergy543 @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> Does anyone know who did the actual orchestration on this? On the CD it says its produced by Danny Elfman and Steve Bartek. Additional orchestrations by Shirley Walker and Scott Smalley.
> 
> Hard to know who did what though.



I think Bartek did the bulk of the orchestration. Shirley was more than likely in collaboration.

You gotta remember that this was early Elfman. I remember an interview I read, he was saying he needed a lot of help with those early scores, not knowing why the hell Tim asked him to score his movies!


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## Wes Antczak

On the cd insert notes it says Orchestrations by Steve Bartek, Additional Orchestrations by Shirley Walker and Steven Scott Smalley. But yeah, who knows who did what.


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## jleckie

After Batman came out many people would head over to Shirley at various Industry parties and congratulate her on the score to Batman.

She was very humble and told them that Danny composed that score.

Truth be told Shirley was responsible for more of that score than many know.

Steve, Danny and Shirley are wonderful people and I miss Shirley dearly.


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## ed buller

a good companion to the score :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Danny-Elfmans-Batman-Scarecrow-Guides-ebook/dp/B00EUZPXYY/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392557462&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=danny+elfmans+batman+janet+k+half+yard (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Danny-Elfmans-B ... +half+yard)

e


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## FredW

I know there's a DVD with extra material including Elfmans comments together with just the score and no sound/dialogue for Edward Scissorhands. Anyone knows if the same special feature is available on any DVD or Blu-ray for Batman? Would be great to have together with this score.


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## korgscrew

FredW @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> I know there's a DVD with extra material including Elfmans comments together with just the score and no sound/dialogue for Edward Scissorhands. Anyone knows if the same special feature is available on any DVD or Blu-ray for Batman? Would be great to have together with this score.



I never knew about this!

Ill have to watch it at work as the Missus doesn't like the film much.


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## Shubus

Thanks to Ed Butler for pointing out the score companion book to Batman: Ordered!


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## mverta

jleckie @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> Truth be told Shirley was responsible for more of that score than many know.



A lot more...


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## korgscrew

mverta @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> jleckie @ Sat Feb 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truth be told Shirley was responsible for more of that score than many know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot more...
Click to expand...


So what are we saying here Mike?

Elfman wrote the themes and ideas and Shirley filled in the craters?


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## midi_controller

mverta @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> jleckie @ Sat Feb 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truth be told Shirley was responsible for more of that score than many know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot more...
Click to expand...


Really, this again? How many times do I have to pull out Elfman's open letter? Screw it, here you go: 



> An Open Letter from Danny Elfman
> 
> from Keyboard Magazine, March 1993
> 
> _Bodies litter the musical battleground, where the forces of innovation engage the armies of tradition time and time again. The latest skirmish pitted Danny Elfman, the self-taught author of the scores to Batman, Midnight run, Pee-wee's big adventure, and Beetlejuice, against Micah D. Rubenstein, a theory and composition teacher at Ohio's Kenyon College. Elfman, in his Oct '89 Keyboard interview confessed to having had only a skimpy musical education; most of his savvy as a performer and composer stems from onstage experience as leader of a 12-piece musical/theatrical troupe, the Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo. This admission outraged Rubenstein, whose subsequent letter in our Jan.'90 issue accused us and Elfman of "glorifying musical ignorance. . . . In the complex world of film and orchestral music, there are no shortcuts. If you can't do it yourself, you have to have the money to hire competent, conservatory-trained people such as (orchestrator) Steve Bartek or (conductor) Shirley Walker,", whose contributions to the Batman sessions were discussed at length in our Elfman interview.
> 
> Our special issue on film scoring was well underway when Elfman called us and asked if he could submit a response to Rubenstein's letter. Though much of what he wanted to say boiled down to a refutation of Rubenstein's allegations about his background, Elfman also wanted to make broader points about the changing dynamics of the film industry and the new standards of excellence being pursued by today's soundtrack composers. His comments fit in so well with this month's focus that we decided to give him this page as his forum._
> 
> Although I'm quite used to being attacked by "knowledgeable" people in the music profession, and I rarely find it worth my time to take these attacks seriously, I'm compelled to respond to Micah Rubenstein's absurd and misinformed letter about my musical abilities (or lack thereof).
> 
> I have chosen to defend myself this time not only because of the personal viciousness and many inaccuracies of his comments, but more importantly because of the frightening musical elitism that they represent.
> 
> As well as offering a personal defense, I wish to speak on behalf of the many musicians, composers, and arrangers who lack formal education, yet persist in an extremely difficult craft with nothing more than some raw talent and a belief in their abilities.
> 
> The art of film composition is something I happen to take very seriously. While I would never refer to myself as a wunderkind or a genius of any kind, Mr. Rubestein, your comparison of a film music composer to Mozart is even more pointless.
> 
> Film composition is a unique art with unique requirements. It is not the same as writing a symphony-something I've never professed to be able to do. Film music is written for no other reason than to accentuate the images on the screen, to underline the emotions of the characters, and hopefully, when we're lucky, to help breathe life into a two-dimensional medium. A film score is not "pure music," and should be judged on its dramatic, emotional, and/or visually enhancing merits.
> 
> There isn't any one "correct" way to score a film. Each film is a world unto itself, with its own unique strengths and weaknesses which must be addressed.
> 
> While one film may, in fact, call for a full-blown "symphonic" approach, synthesizers may be more appropriate for another. The next may require nothing more than a banjo and accordion duet.
> 
> It is an art that requires you to constantly invent creative and imaginative solutions to numerous restrictions and obstacles... and doing it fast.
> 
> On the film Batman, as with many films, there were about six weeks to compose more than 70 minutes of accurately timed and often complex orchestral music. Add on top of this any number of changes and rewrites due to last-minute film cuts anu/or conceptual shifts, and the total amount of music can increase dramatically.
> 
> Because of this, most composers in Hollywood—yes, even the famous conservatory-trained ones—use orchestrators, music editors, and occasionally conductors to assist them in focusing their creative energy where it will do the most good. The complexity of the task on a huge, high-pressure score can be mind-boggling, I assure you.
> 
> On Batman, as on many films, there was a team effort to pull it all together on time, and I'm fortunate to have very talented people on my team. Yes, my orchestrator, Steve Bartek, is very gifted, and did a great job, as did my conductor, Shirley Walker, and the music editor, Bob Badami. Their help was invaluable to me, especially on a difficult job like Batman.
> 
> Whether I achieved good, bad, or mediocre results with the music is not the issue here. As with any art, that's a subjective point which will always be up for lively debate and scrutiny. But, having worked my ass off for 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week, for a month and a half to write that score and yes, you dumb fuck, I actually wrote it down-I will not sit back passively and allow myself to be discredited for the work I did by an idiot who mistakenly thinks that I lazily hire people to do it for me, or that only a conservatory can produce a real film composer.
> 
> I am self-taught, and although that's not something I'm proud of, neither am I ashamed of it. While you, Mr. Rubenstein are incorrect in stating that I studied with Christopher Young or anyone else, you are absolutely presumptuous in assuming that Mr. Bartek and Ms. Walker are conservatory-trained. In fact, Mr. Bartek never attended a conservatory, and Ms. Walker, who in addition to being a great conductor and orchestrator is a fine composer in her own right, never finished college, and considers herself to be primarily self-taught as well.
> 
> Furthermore, and more to the point, composers, like writers, painters, or film directors, are able to create their art from their instincts, their intuition—their "soul," for lack of a better word—something that has never been easily taught. Imagination, our most valuable tool, is not, unfortunately, conferred by a degree.
> 
> A musical education, although I never had one, is something for which I have great respect. It can, I'm sure, be a wonderful thing, and provide all kinds of invaluable tools with which to work. It is not, however, the only way to acquire tools, or to learn.
> 
> I would guess that it wouldn't surprise you terribly to find out that a respected author may not have had six years of formal English literature, but learned by doing-that is, by sitting down at a typewriter and writing, day after day.
> 
> Certainly, you must be aware that there are many film directors—Batman's Tim Burton, for one example—who never attended any film school. Why, then, is it so hard to accept the possibility that someone who works hard can learn to write film music from hands-on experience?
> 
> In the past five years, I've had the good fortune of being able to write, and have performed, more than 600 minutes of orchestra music. This probably involved writing some where in the neighborhood of 20,000 bars of music. I know I'm not the greatest film composer in the land—something that I couldn't care less about—and I'm more than aware of my many shortcomings. But after all this, I have learned just a few little things—perhaps even a thing or two not taught in your illustrious music class.
> 
> I will admit to getting tongue twisted and saying some pretty incomprehensible things more than once in my Keyboard interview. But I feel that my work, of which I'm proud, speaks for me much better than I can.
> 
> Finally, I hope there are others out there who can benefit from my experience—other compulsive self-taught artists who feel driven to test their abilities beyond what anal, closed-minded, self-protective "teachers" like yourself try to convince them they cannot do without their degrees.
> 
> —Danny Elfman
> Graduate, with honors, American College of Hard Knocks
> 
> Post-graduate studies, Nose to the Grindstone University



There, now stop trying to pass off the work to other people. Shame on you guys, you should know better.


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## Stephen Rees

Thanks for posting that MC. I hadn't seen it before and it was a great and inspiring read.


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## Daryl

I don't really know why DE wrote that letter. I think he didn't need to justify himself. All he had to do was have his original, handwritten score printed, and it would have shut everyone up. People can claim anything they like, but they need to back it up with proof, and if he had, it would have solved things once and for all.

D


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## mverta

Daryl @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> I don't really know why DE wrote that letter. I think he didn't need to justify himself. All he had to do was have his original, handwritten score printed, and it would have shut everyone up.



That wouldn't have helped. Shirley and Steve wrote a lot, Danny's letter notwithstanding. At least, that's what Shirley told me.

_Mike


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## jleckie

Danny never forgot her covering for him. He was a major factor in getting her animated work.


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## midi_controller

Again, shame on you guys.

@mverta: If Shirley Walker did indeed say that in conversation, then you shouldn't be going around repeating it, especially after her death since now it can't be verified. I'm sorry but I'm still going to go with Mr. Elfman's word here, partially because it's not third party (I don't know the context of the conversation), and partially because you don't get that angry about people accusing you of using ghostwriters if you actually did. You also have to take into account that she didn't work on Batman Returns, and that is still a fantastic score and most certainly retains the spirit of the first one yet brings in all new material that works extremely well in tandem. Besides, I've heard his mock-ups to some of his other scores, and they are very, very detailed, so he has the chops for it. Not to mention that Batman undeniably has that "Elfman" sound, as you can hear on his many other scores.

@jleckie: Source? I'd tend to think that Shirley Walker's exceptional work as a composer and her familiarity with the Batman material (she did do additional orchestrations and conducted after all), as well as the fact that she probably developed direct connections with WB during those sessions, were the major factors in landing the Batman animated series. But what do I know, right?

@Daryl: When you accuse someone of something, the burden of proof is on YOU. It's not up to the accused to prove that they are innocent, it's up the the accuser to prove that they aren't. There was a lot of accusations around that time (obviously, since Elfman himself decided to respond with that open letter), and absolutely no evidence to back it up. Elfman didn't need to prove a damn thing to anyone then, and still doesn't now.

How about we stop attacking the credibility of other composers on these forums, _especially_ without evidence, it's just not cool.


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## jamwerks

Listened to it on Itunes and think I'm going to buy the score. Only heard a couple passages of questionable orchestration. 99% very nice.

Not easy to play that stuff, and when it comes off, it can't be poorly orchestrated. Lots of interesting harmony and typical gestures that it would be good to know. Glad that someone publishes this stuff!


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## Daryl

midi_controller @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> @Daryl: When you accuse someone of something, the burden of proof is on YOU. It's not up to the accused to prove that they are innocent, it's up the the accuser to prove that they aren't. There was a lot of accusations around that time (obviously, since Elfman himself decided to respond with that open letter), and absolutely no evidence to back it up. Elfman didn't need to prove a damn thing to anyone then, and still doesn't now.


Erm, I think you mean "when *one*" as I didn't accuse anyone of anything. All I suggested was that it would have been simpler to show the hand written scores and then there could have been no doubt and it would have shut the detractors up. Of course DE was under no obligation to do anything. I never said that he was.

D


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## mverta

midi_controller @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> Again, shame on you guys.
> 
> @mverta: If Shirley Walker did indeed say that in conversation, then you shouldn't be going around repeating it, especially after her death since now it can't be verified.



Actually, since all that's left of Shirley is her contribution to the world of music, I find it rather important that her contributions not be minimized. I'll let the part where you're calling me a liar slide.

I was hired by Warner Bros. in 2001 to compose the score for the _Batman Simulator Ride_, and it was in the course of researching the host material that I was connected with her, and was fortunate to have frank conversations about her career. 

There are some composers who use ghost-writers - and here I'm thinking of many of them - and there are some who write every note of every flourish and nuance, and every orchestrational device specifically laid out - and here I am thinking of John Williams. I certainly don't think it is a "bash" on Danny Elfman to concede that one doesn't simply "walk" into fully fleshed-out orchestral scoring without decades of experience and produce _Batman_. That's insulting to almost everyone involved. Danny is talented, has done some fantastic work, and has never done it alone. I think his rebuttal in the magazine was aimed to address a broad-brush, ignorant, and insulting minimization by a reckless critic, but one has to honor the full contributions of others. At least, one would hope.

So while you're free to admonish me for repeating what Shirley said in confidence, I will admonish you for trampling on the woman's grave. If all you have in your offense is a magazine article by a composer being defensive, at least concede that it's inferior to personal statements made with nothing to gain, reported here for no other reason than the representation of contribution, in the name of truth, and in the spirit of gratitude for what she left us.

_Mike


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## jleckie

As for my information as well I had received my information first hand. 

If that is not good enough of you midicntrl then I am sorry. Of course you are entitled to your opinion- you are entitled to believe what YOU want to believe but there is no sense in making others out to be liars.


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## midi_controller

@Daryl: I didn't mean actually mean you. You're right, should have said "when one". 

@mverta: I'm trampling on her grave? Seriously? Come on man, that is ridiculous. No, your personal conversation with Shirley Walker is by no means more convincing than Elfman's letter, considering I don't know what she said, or the context of it. I can read Elfman's letter, since it was published for all to see. It was an open letter for a reason, as people kept accusing him of using ghost-writers for Batman, and he had enough of it. If you knew anything about Elfman's history, you would know that he didn't come from nothing and make Batman. The man had more experience working with live musicians at that point than most of us ever will, and had loved and studied film music for years before he ever even wrote a film score, not to mention that this wasn't his first big orchestral score either. This is exactly the kind of thing Elfman meant when he talked about "musical elitism". You are insinuating that he couldn't have done the work alone because in your eyes, he didn't have the knowledge, and yet you have no idea how much experience he actually had.

Your "report" seems less about the truth and more about pettily bashing another composer, which many, many other composers did around the time Batman came out as well, also for petty, misguided reasons. If you want to take that as me calling you a liar, fine, do it. I'm just not going by hearsay, which is all you are giving me. I have no evidence that Elfman didn't write every note of that score; indeed, all of his other work (including the films he didn't work with Walker on), suggest that he did.

Shirley Walker has done so much fantastic original work, she wouldn't ever have need to rely on Batman to prove her contribution. Not to diminish her skills as an orchestrator and conductor, which I'm sure contributed greatly to the score and are well credited, but we aren't talking about that since even John Williams uses orchestrators.

Besides, you didn't come out to try and reveal, in detail, the contributions that Walker made to Batman. No, you just insinuated that she wrote a large portion of it. Don't try and get on a high horse like you are trying to do her memory justice. If you did, the last thing you would want to do is bring it back kicking and screaming to a 25 year old debate that I thought would have been dead and buried by now, especially based on something she may have said to you in confidence.

@jleckie: You do realize that you are making Elfman out to be a liar right? So it's alright if you do it, but if I question your "first hand information" (man you people are extraordinarily vague) that contradicts openly available information, somehow I'm in the wrong? :roll: 

Why can't you people let this go? It's been 25 years. If Shirley Walker had wanted credit for the film, she would have asked for it herself. Just enjoy the score.


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## dannthr

Whoa, chill out guys!

Does anyone remember that Masked Magician TV Series? They had this mysterious masked magician who would come on and reveal all these crazy magic tricks--it was fascinating.

Well, about that same time, David Blane was getting quite popular with his street magic specials with various astounding magic tricks which he performed right under people's noses including levitation.

Well, it was only a matter of time until the masked magician did a David Blane reveal where he exposed the TV special itself as a lie--where their audience members were actors and they used a crane and camera frame tricks to sell the illusion to audience members at home.

I was really upset by this--not upset at the masked magician, but upset at David Blane because the premise of the show was revealed as a lie.

Something similar happened when I was starting to get work in film. You know, I grew up with this fantasy of what a composer was, what they were responsible for, the things they created, and the heroes or idols I worshiped.

But when I started learning about ghost writers, teams, and the un-credited work of hugely skilled individuals--I got pissed off, pissed at the industry, at the heroes I worshiped--definitely naïve, but it warded me off of film--I stopped working in film because of this.

I was upset because the premise of the credit "Composed by" seemed a lie to me.

I trashed people I respected and got into stupid internet fights on forums over the authenticity of credit. I felt no more respect for my heroes--my idols.

After some time working in games, which really wasn't all that different except that everyone gets credited on games, and after a lot of growing, I realized something that I never really considered back then: it doesn't matter how the music gets made.

Music is like magic, the important part of music is not how it is created, that doesn't matter, the important part of music, like magic, is the effect it creates in the audience--that's its power and purpose.

That's hard to remember when as creators, we are obsessed with how music is made, and while I think it's terrible that people take credit for other people's works--that is merely the result of ego and fear.

I think in cases like these, it's important to appreciate the cumulative effort of several skilled individuals--that together they achieved something that no single individual could--and that is the power of collaboration it wouldn't be the same without all of them.

And we should take note that as we nit-pick over who did what and the scope of every collaborator, that we do so because we all share the belief that being transparent and sincere about our collaborators efforts is important. 

We can never truly know how honest anyone is, we can't know unless we were there, and anything but first hand experience is hearsay whether by open letter or personal communication. All we can do is be as honest as we can about our own works and appreciate that for the audience, all that matters is that we create good art.

It doesn't matter how this score was made. It was made and we are privileged to explore its design--it's magic.


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## EastWest Lurker

The truth is the truth, however little people want to hear it. Mike Verta has spoken the truth. In the beginning Danny didn't know much about orchestration and Shirley and Steve Bartek made major contributions to the degree it is fair to say he could not have gotten the scores done without them..

Over time, because he is a good musician, Danny learned more and therefore can probably do more autonomously now than he could back then.

No shame in it.


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## mverta

dannthr @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> You know, I grew up with this fantasy of what a composer was, what they were responsible for, the things they created, and the heroes or idols I worshiped.



It's not a fantasy if you're a John Williams fan.  As I covered in my masterclass on him, he had his influences like anyone else, but he has never used a ghost writer, and his orchestrators are glorified copyists, not orchestrating. Pencil and paper, and a piano, all by himself. I still admire this. 


@midi_contoller: Forgive me for not continuing to combat your position; your last post did that better than I could ever have. I'm glad we're both fans of Danny Elfman.

_Mike


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## dannthr

That's what I hear, Mike, from a lot of people.

But I can't obsess over that--what's important is that we appreciate the collaboration--whether his orchestrators merely relieve him of time burden involved in copying out parts or if their influence has a larger scope on the final product, the work is achieved because of the collaboration and it wouldn't have been the same if he was doing everything by himself.

It doesn't make him less or more either way.

It doesn't matter at all.

What matters is that the music is exceptional and we get to enjoy it.


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## midi_controller

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> The truth is the truth, however little people want to hear it. Mike Verta has spoken the truth. In the beginning Danny didn't know much about orchestration and Shirley and Steve Bartek made major contributions to the degree it is fair to say he could not have gotten the scores done without them..



In the beginning Steve Bartek didn't know much about orchestration either. Both he and Elfman where fairly new to the whole thing (I believe Bartek had read an orchestration book... once). What both had was a ton of practical experience working with live musicians. Shirley Walker didn't work with Elfman until Batman, so how do you account for all the Elfman scores leading up to that? 

If people want to say that Elfman isn't as detailed in his sketches as John Williams, I wouldn't take issue with that. It's nice that Mike thinks that an orchestrator's job should just be a glorified copiest, but more often than not (and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case with Batman), they do much more than that, hence why they have that title. But accusing a composer of taking credit for other people's music is different, and for the last 25 years we have had these rumors flying around and not one person has offered any actual evidence of it. So if you want to say that Elfman had a lot of help in the orchestration department, I take no issue. If you imply that Bartek and/or Walker wrote a large portion of the score, I'll challenge it every single time.

There is no cue in Batman that doesn't sound like Danny Elfman wrote it to my ears. Did he write out every run, every flourish? I don't know, and don't really care. The Batman score could simply not have been without him.

@dannthr: I believe it's important to stand up for other composers when their credibility has been called into question like this. I think we all should. This isn't high school, rumors should not be allowed to spread without more than one's word to back it up, and implications should always be clarified. But I agree, we should just enjoy the score without having to get into the semantics of what orchestrators do or accusations of taking credit for others work.


----------



## IvanP

midi_controller @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> There is no cue in Batman that doesn't sound like Danny Elfman wrote it to my ears. Did he write out every run, every flourish? I don't know, and don't really care. The Batman score could simply not have been without him.



Have you heard the complete Air Force One soundtrack? I think it was Joel Mc Neely who completed Goldsmith's work, as an additional composer (probably for scheduling problems or Goldsmith's health issues). I remember listening to one of these additionally composed cues. 

It sounded pretty 100% Goldsmith and Air Force Onish. The ability to write "in the style of" is another ability of talented composers 

EDIT: Just found a cue:

http://www.goear.com/listen/a826499/air-force-one-dumping-fuel-joel-mcneely (http://www.goear.com/listen/a826499/air ... el-mcneely)


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## dannthr

Ah Air Force One will always be Star Trek First Contact to me.

I love Joel McNeely though, really enjoyed his Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire score.


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## korgscrew

Let's pick a que and mock it up. Easier said than done?

MIDI controller. You can do *Roof fight * :twisted: 

I'll do Roasted Dude. 

Good luck


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## midi_controller

@IvanP: You misunderstand. What I meant is there isn't anything that would cause me to believe that someone else wrote any of those cues.

@korgscrew: Why do you get the easy one?


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## EastWest Lurker

midi_controller @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> ]
> 
> In the beginning Steve Bartek didn't know much about orchestration either. Both he and Elfman where fairly new to the whole thing (I believe Bartek had read an orchestration book... once). /quote]
> 
> Steve had a degree in composition from UCLA. I believe some orchestration study generally comes with achieving that
> 
> He also says that Lennie Niehaus taught him stuff.
> http://www.muzykafilmowa.pl/artykuly/bartek.htm
> 
> Anyway, not knocking Danny Elfman or his scores, however he achieves them, but the truth is he just was not one of those "can do it all guys". like some others.
> 
> The truth is the truth.


----------



## Gabriel2013

This topic is getting off track. 

But IMHO people often have the tendency to opnionate without full knowledge of events.
Unless Danny Elfman joins VI-Control to clarify this (Like HZ did on some post about him) this is my interpretations of the facts:

1. Mike Verta is one the few composers that share real information (sometimes at a ridiculous cheep price) to help composers improving their craft.

2. Mike Verta is one of the few people that is always advising on transcribing scores for learning purpose.

3. Transcribing everyday for 3 years will be the equivelance of a PHD in Music (I have a BMus so I know what I am talking about).

4. If this was to be teach at a university level, a lot of people would be out of business (will you play 20K to learn how to transcribe?).

5. Love to read posts at VI-Control, but one has to understand how this game is played. 
There is to many composer out there looking for a break and they will do anything for it (some people are sharing misleading information to confuse young aspiring composers).

6. Have done Ghost Writing myself and know how difficult this subject is.

7. Taking consideration of all of the above, Mike Verta seams like a very reliable source.

8. Danny Elfman clearly states on his open letter that he wrote the batman Score, but he was not clear if others have help him (to speed up the process) because of the 6 weeks deadline.

Botton line:
The purpose of Danny Elfman´s open letter was not what has been discuss here, so his words have been used out of context. On the other hand Mike Verta has not express an opinion but a quote from 
Shirley Walker (a very different thing).


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## midi_controller

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> Steve had a degree in composition from UCLA. I believe some orchestration study generally comes with achieving that
> 
> He also says that Lennie Niehaus taught him stuff.
> http://www.muzykafilmowa.pl/artykuly/bartek.htm



Ah, yup, I thought I had read that Bartek hadn't studied that much. However, thank you for bringing that up, I found a cool interview with him that kind of contradicts things that people are saying here: http://www.boingo.org/articles/FSMBartek.html

Some notable bits: 


> *Lukas Kendall: *How do you work with Danny?
> 
> *Steve Bartek:* When Danny works with a director, he sits down and he mocks up all his themes on his computer. His synthesizers and samplers play back the major themes for the director, and they spend weeks sorting through that stuff. When it comes down to starting my involvement, he takes those sequences, of which some are fully fleshed-out orchestrations on the computer and some are merely sketches, and sits down scene by scene and writes it onto paper. He actually takes a pencil writes notes and translates what's in the computer down to notation and in doing that he finishes writing most of the stuff, by adding things here and there that aren't in the computer, making sure he hits things on screen, adding dynamics and color. Then he hands them to me. What I get is usually a fairly fleshed-out sketch not all the time, but most of the time. Sometimes it's too complete; there were some times on Batman he got so many things going that they didn't work together, and I had to sort through them to make sure that what we had would actually work. But he actually does physically write stuff down on paper! [laughs]





> *LK:* Now, had you done large-scale orchestration yourself?
> 
> *SB:* Before Pee-Wee? No. [laughs]
> 
> *LK:* So you were coming into this blind as well.
> 
> *SB:* Oh yeah, he dragged me along with him. I'd gone to college, went to UCLA. studied composition and orchestration and then played in a rock band for ten years. I used any orchestration skills only in our largest ensemble, which was eight pieces. And suddenly we had this Pee-Wee's Big Adventure with the full orchestra, and it was a challenge. We had help from the conductor, Lennie Niehaus, in the sense that it went from Danny to me to him. Danny gave me sketches, I orchestrated them the way I thought they would be, and then Lennie took them; basically I arranged them and then Lennie, although his agent doesn't want him to have the credit officially, orchestrated the stuff. It was kind of a funny set-up but he took my stuff and corrected it, made it right, whatever mistakes I was making.





> *LK: *Danny said "There's never been a note in one of my scores that I didn't write."
> 
> *SB: *Yeah.
> *
> LK: *Not even a note?
> 
> *SB: *No. An orchestrator's job is to take someone's stuff and make it be what the composer wants it to be. In doing that, you do sometimes "add notes," but you don't change melodies, you don't change harmonic structures, you don't change the composition. I don't know what you're needling at by saying that...
> 
> *LK: *Well, I mean of course you're not writing the melodies, but I'm just trying-
> 
> *SB: *Right. Well, the problem is that people come to me and give me credit for writing Danny's music. They hint that well, "We know that you really do that stuff" - that's why he's sensitive, that's why [agent] Richard Kraft is sensitive. Danny's gotten lots of flak over it. They can't believe that someone who's a rock and roll singer in an offbeat Los Angeles band can actually write the music that he writes.
> 
> *LK: *I was just wondering to what extent Danny's music requires adjustment, without changing the concept, but making it playable...
> 
> *SB: *No. Concepts are never changed. Concepts are never changed except by him. He's in full control of his creative output. I never assume to go and change things. We've had extra orchestrators; at the end of a project when things have to be done, I farm out some of the orchestration, and at certain points we've had some orchestrators who have totally changed his stuff, and we've had to re-do it. We haven't worked with those orchestrators again, because that's kind of what orchestrators see themselves as, frustrated composers most of the time, and like putting their own two cents in somebody else's music. And it just doesn't work with Danny. When he writes down a certain voicing, he wants that voicing. He doesn't want added notes, he doesn't want this or that, he's fairly specific about what he writes and what he wants to get out of it.





> *LK: *He has mentioned that on a couple of films he has designated a cue to be composed by someone else, and indicated in the end credits.
> 
> *SB: *Yes, he has done that.
> *
> LK: *Have you ever done that?
> *
> SB: *I' ve usually been too busy. When he does that is when he doesn't have time to finish. On Nightbreed Shirley Walker did one, Jonathan Sheffer did one on Darkman, those are the two I remember. Danny basically sketched it out for them, gave them a couple of ideas, and said, "Here, go with it, I don't have time to finish these scenes."
> 
> *LK: *So then everyone goes around saying that Jonathan Sheffer wrote the entire score to Darkman.
> *
> SB:* Right.



So now we have Danny Elfman saying that he writes his own music, we have Steve Bartek saying that Danny writes his own music, and we have Mike Verta saying that Shirley Walker said that she and Bartek wrote a lot of Batman and jleckie saying that someone told him something similar... I wonder, who should I to believe? :D

@Gabriel2013: Considering that the reason Elfman wrote that letter was because people were accusing him of using ghost-writers, and then people in this thread did the same thing, I'd say it's pretty relevant. Both of my first hand accounts, which are openly available for anyone to read and verify, attest to Elfman not using ghost-writers. Mike and jleckie are not giving verifiable information, only hearsay. Believe whatever you want, but I'll stick with the verifiable first-hand accounts.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

If you reflexively believe what famous people say publicly, versus what they say privately, you are going to be very poorly informed.


----------



## synergy543

Additional fact:

Scott Smalley also did orchestration on Batman. I have orchestrations from the Scott Smalley class for Shootout 4M2 that are credited "Composed by Danny Elfman", Orchestrated by Steven Scott Smalley".

I'm sure he did other cues as well. Maybe someone (currently signed up for the online classes) can ask Scott?


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## Gabriel2013

@midi_controller: I judge people´s opinion by their reliability of past opinions and Mike has gain my trust over the years, has being one of the "no bull" kind of guy.

You hear: "...Danny Elfman saying that he writes his own music, we have Steve Bartek saying that Danny writes his own music...." and assume that nobody help me him on that score.
Just because I write my own music dozen´t mean I don´t call some one to help me if I am on a very tight deadline.
Like I said, you need to do Ghost Writing to understand what´s going on.

The only evidence here is Mike Verta word (as you so kindly call him a liar), all the other information that you show us resume to: Danny Elfman writes his own music.

Thank god that´s true. Elfman is one of my favourite composers, and I don´t want to be shock and discovered that someone else is writing his music (like that fake japonese composer).


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## synergy543

The only evidence here is Mike Verta word...


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## midi_controller

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> If you reflexively believe what famous people say publicly, versus what they say privately, you are going to be very poorly informed.



If you reflexively believe everything that everyone you know tells you, you are going to be very poorly informed. Works that way too. :D

And for the trifecta: http://walker.cinemusic.net/interview.html



> _In terms of working with Danny Elfman, how did you perceive the criticism that he wasn't responsible for writing his own music? Steve Bartek has said that he got winks and nudges meaning "we know you really write the music". Has that happened to you?_
> 
> *Shirley: *I think Danny's fans know by now that he writes his own music. At the time I worked with him, it was more his envious peers who delighted in keeping alive the notion that he couldn't write. Unfortunately, perception frequently outweighs truth.



So now we have all three saying that Danny writes his own music, openly, straight out of their own mouths, perfectly verifiable. Were they all lying? Why would they? Why would Elfman give Walker and others credit on other scores for additional music and not on Batman? Why are you all so willing to jump to the conclusion that Elfman uses ghost-writers, when everything that I have found points to the opposite? How much more do you require?

Perhaps Mike misunderstood what she was saying, or took what she said out of context, I don't know. None of us do, we were not there during the conversation. All I know is that there is documentation of all three saying that Elfman writes his own music. Again, I will go with what I can verify, and stay away the rumors.

@Gabriel2013: I never called Mike a liar, he just took it that way. You are calling Elfman, Bartek, and Walker all liars. You do know what accusing Elfman of using ghost-writers means right? That he was was taking the credit for music _he didn't write_.

@synergy543: Hearsay isn't evidence.

Incredible. Absolutely incredible.


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## EastWest Lurker

I have worked in LA since 1972. I know what I know and who I know it from, and not just in the case of Mr. Elfman.. That is all I will say. 

The problem is that the line between what is composing/orchestrating/sequencing/ghost writing has been so muddied.

If a composer passes out chord charts and tells everyone to improvise on them at a certain tempo for a certain amount of time, is that composing? If he determined the instruments to be hired, is that orchestrating? Because a very famous composer did precisely that on a score he took on after another had been fired and he was on a tight deadline.

And in the end, what does it matter anyway? If the scores are considered good by his/her clients and the films are successful, the composer will get work. How it is accomplished only matters to a handful of people, so what is the point of belaboring it?


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## jleckie

You like Black and White don't you MidiCntrl? One day you will discover shades of Gray. 

If you really don't think composers take credit for music they didn't write then you should probably go and take a look at some Public court records and take a look at some lawsuits from composers who sue composers for doing just that. 

And by the way MOST of those cases do not end up in court. 

Most are settled in other ways.


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## Gabriel2013

@midi_controller:

Man, I must being living on another planet.
I din´t call Danny Elfman a liar!!!!!
Batman is one of my favourite scores (that 5 note motif give me the creeps all the time).

I just stated that there is no evidence on your findings that Elfman didn´t got help on that score.
Now (AND I SAY IT AGAIN), if elfman comes to this forum (or somewhere else) and clarify this situation that´s OK with me.

By the way, there is a reason why they call it Ghost Writers: They don´t exist......................................to the general public................and don´t get credit.

Anyway I can see that your mind if focus on: Elfman writes is own music = Didn´t got help on Batman.
There is nothing more here to discuss.

Like my old teacher use to say: You throw a lot a s**** to the wall, some will stick.


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## Gabriel2013

jleckie @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> If you really don't think composers take credit for music they didn't write then you should probably go and take a look at some Public court records and take a look at some lawsuits from composers who sue composers for doing just that.



So true.


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## midi_controller

@jleckie: I didn't say the practice doesn't happen, I said that there is no evidence to suggest that Elfman used ghostwriters.

@Gabriel2013: Elfman stated that he writes his own music. You said Elfman uses ghostwriters. That means you are calling Elfman a liar. I pointed to three interviews, from Elfman, Bartek and Walker which allude to Elfman having written his own music. If that is not enough for you, I will point out that no one has provided evidence that he did use ghostwriters, and, once again, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Perhaps there is a language problem here, we all know that Elfman received help from Bartek, Walker and Steven Scott Smalley with orchestrations, not to mention the rest of the team, and they are all well credited. But the accusation is that Elfman used ghostwriters, not that he received help.

@Jay: I understand, but the problem is that there was massive misconceptions about the whole score by almost the _entire_ film scoring community back then (for the backstory, read this starting at page 11). I don't know if you are just going off of that or not. This feels like an extension of the rumors spread back then, and like I said, after 25 years, no one has offered more than just "I heard that...". No ghost-writers have stepped up to take the credit, Bartek and Walker both attested to the fact that Elfman wrote his own music, and Elfman regularly gives credit to the people who worked with him. It just doesn't make sense.

I could be completely wrong, and I understand that, but I'm not going to attack the credibility of another composer without the evidence to back it up, and I feel that I need to challenge those that do. It's shameful behavior.

I would do the same for you Jay, if your credibility was called into question, as well as Mike, and anyone else. I'm actually surprised the mods have been so quiet about this, perhaps because Elfman isn't a member (or at least, not that we know of). I have a hard time believing things would be so quiet if one of our more influential members were bashed like this.

In the end, it only matters because this kind of behavior should never be allowed to slide. If it was you that people were saying this about, you wouldn't be so casual about it I'm sure. Elfman may not care, but I do, simply on principal. I would hope that if nothing else you guys can appreciate that.


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## EastWest Lurker

Which Jay? I assume you mean the other one because I am clear that in my view it does not matter. It is just the nature of the way things work in the industry and I am not motivated to tilt at windmills.


----------



## midi_controller

I'm not sure where you stand Jay (EastWest Lurker Jay). You said that Elfman needed additional help with _orchestrations_, and that I take no issue with. Then again, you said that Mike spoke the truth, after he said this:



> Shirley and Steve wrote a lot, Danny's letter notwithstanding. At least, that's what Shirley told me.



That alludes to ghostwriting (otherwise "wrote" would be the wrong word and he could have specified). That is what I take issue with. In regards to your belief that it doesn't matter, it sure as hell mattered back then, since Elfman was snubbed by the Academy for years as you can read in that link. It would probably hurt one of us even more if something similar happened. Rumors are vicious little things, and as you can see here, they don't tend to go away.


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## Gabriel2013

There is definitely a language problem here.
All I was trying to say is that I believe the words of Mive Verta (a very provenly reliable guy over here).

I am not calling anybody a liar (neither Mike for that maters) since your are arguing in someone else behalf, and Mike is talking about is personal experience.
But hey you win the cup......



........I am out of here.


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## Daryl

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> The problem is that the line between what is composing/orchestrating/sequencing/ghost writing has been so muddied.


This is one of the main points. I have worked as an orchestrator on films where I couldn't add any notes, on pain of death. I have also worked on films where I got a tune and a few chord symbols. If I was lucky. In the second case, did I write the music? Did I write the music, based on another composer's themes? Was I an arranger? However, more importantly, how did the "composer" feel about my role? I know people who are so enamored by their (imagined) talent that they would consider their turds to be filled with gold. :lol: 

In fact I no longer will agree to orchestrate for the second category, as I feel that this is crossing the line between writing and orchestrating.

D


----------



## AC986

Daryl @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> If I was lucky. In the second case, did I write the music?
> D



Yes!


----------



## aaronnt1

adriancook @ Tue 18 Feb said:


> Daryl @ Tue Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I was lucky. In the second case, did I write the music?
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes!
Click to expand...


I see writing melodies, outlines, tempos and chord progressions as the drawing part and orchestrating it as the painting / colouring in. In this example, depending on how detailed the outline was that was given to you, you were doing the colouring but if you added melodies, counter melodies, and modified chords then I'd say you also did some drawing.

Which is more important, creative, technically impressive and worthy of adulation and a writer's credit probably depends on a case by case basis and could prove to be a lively debate...


----------



## EastWest Lurker

midi_controller @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> I'm not sure where you stand Jay (EastWest Lurker Jay). You said that Elfman needed additional help with _orchestrations_, and that I take no issue with. Then again, you said that Mike spoke the truth, after he said this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shirley and Steve wrote a lot, Danny's letter notwithstanding. At least, that's what Shirley told me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That alludes to ghostwriting (otherwise "wrote" would be the wrong word and he could have specified). That is what I take issue with. In regards to your belief that it doesn't matter, it sure as hell mattered back then, since Elfman was snubbed by the Academy for years as you can read in that link. It would probably hurt one of us even more if something similar happened. Rumors are vicious little things, and as you can see here, they don't tend to go away.
Click to expand...


Well than let me clarify:I f Mike says Shirley said she ghost wrote some on it (which jibes with my source) then IMHO, she ghost wrote some of it. 

And I don't care because it happens all the time in the film business, due to deadline restrictions It's just the way it is. In a perfect world, ghost writers would be credited but it is not a perfect world.


----------



## Daryl

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> And I don't care because it happens all the time in the film business, due to deadline restrictions It's just the way it is. In a perfect world, ghost writers would be credited but it is not a perfect world.


Actually, as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with deadlines. It is to do with greed. If the "composer" doesn't have time to write it, he/she shouldn't pretend that they have written it. Not to mention that it is illegal, as Joel Goldsmith found out.

TBH it is a very dangerous practice, and threatens to destroy the composing industry by setting the precedent that one can be paid for composing and have no entitlement to Royalties, just as happens in most other industries.

D


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Daryl @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't care because it happens all the time in the film business, due to deadline restrictions It's just the way it is. In a perfect world, ghost writers would be credited but it is not a perfect world.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with deadlines. It is to do with greed. If the "composer" doesn't have time to write it, he/she shouldn't pretend that they have written it. Not to mention that it is illegal, as Joel Goldsmith found out.
> 
> TBH it is a very dangerous practice, and threatens to destroy the composing industry by setting the precedent that one can be paid for composing and have no entitlement to Royalties, just as happens in most other industries.
> 
> D
Click to expand...


It has been widely going on for 50 years and somehow the industry has survived. I am not defending it, just not outraged enough as to storm the bastille.


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## ed buller

a thing to remember in this instance is Warner Bros where hoping that some of the score would come from Prince. From what i heard when the music showed up it didn't work in the picture, only as the party song and a bit in the background so I wouldn't be at all surprised if at that point it was all hands on deck to get it finished.

e


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## korgscrew

All this reminds me of the BBC radio 4 interview with Lorne Balfe.

When asked about Remote Control and the way the composers are collaborating with each other and mostly Hans, he closes up like a clam and refuses to comment, also not giving straight answers to a simple question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxyVnTmpdRE

Skip to 30 Mins and 27 Seconds for the Balfe audio.


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## midi_controller

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> Well than let me clarify:I f Mike says Shirley said she ghost wrote some on it (which jibes with my source) then IMHO, she ghost wrote some of it.



And this is what I do not and cannot understand. Your sources? What about mine? All of which you can verify yourself. I'm not giving you rumors, I'm not telling you what I heard, I'm giving you, right from the SOURCE, the WORDS of the three people most involved in the scoring of Batman. But no one gives a shit, because Mike says he heard something once. What the hell is wrong with all of you?

No, Elfman doesn't just hand over a chord chart or something like that. If you spend any time watching interviews or listen to some of his openly available mock-ups, it's pretty clear how extensive his sketches probably are, not to mention the Bartek interview. That probably doesn't matter to anyone either though, no one wants to look for the truth, they want someone else to tell them what the truth is.

All I ask for is proof. Nothing else. No one can supply it, and yet everyone is willing to jump on the rumor bandwagon without a second thought. I've never been so disappointed in the people on this board. You all will flock to all sorts of causes, jump all over others if they don't like the libraries you like, but when a fellow composer's credibility is attacked with nothing to back up the allegations but hearsay, you just nod your heads and go with it or act like it doesn't matter. I honestly thought we were better than this, that this board was better than this. Shame on all of you.


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## Darthmorphling

@midi-controller

You can't be naive enough to not differentiate what someone says to a reporter, and what someone says to a colleague. It happens in every industry. You have what you are supposed to say publicly, and then you tell your friends what you really think.


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## midi_controller

For the 50th time, we were not there for that conversation. We don't know exactly what she said, we don't know the context, there is no record, there is no way to verify it's accuracy, we cannot check with Shirley Walker because she unfortunately passed.

But it doesn't matter. Why can't anyone understand that it doesn't matter? When you publicly accuse someone of something, _YOU NEED MORE THAN YOUR WORD TO BACK IT UP_. I just... I swear to god you guys... where is that facepalm emote when you need it?


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## Darthmorphling

I wasn't there to see my primate ancester come out of the forest and brave the savannah either. I do know there is enough evidence that it happened.


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## EastWest Lurker

midi_controller @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well than let me clarify:I f Mike says Shirley said she ghost wrote some on it (which jibes with my source) then IMHO, she ghost wrote some of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is what I do not and cannot understand. Your sources? What about mine? All of which you can verify yourself. I'm not giving you rumors, I'm not telling you what I heard, I'm giving you, right from the SOURCE, the WORDS of the three people most involved in the scoring of Batman. But no one gives a shit, because Mike says he heard something once. What the hell is wrong with all of you?
> .
Click to expand...


I knew Shirley and I know Mike. That is enough for me.

I also have enough experience with famous people to know that what they say publicly is not always what they say privately and is less than entirely candid. I could quote you chapter and verse but there is no point in doing so.


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## midi_controller

Darthmorphling @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> I wasn't there to see my primate ancester come out of the forest and brave the savannah either. I do know there is enough evidence that it happened.



So where is the evidence that Elfman didn't write all of that score? All we have is a couple people saying they heard he didn't, and first hand accounts of people saying he did. Hey, your primate ancestor was actually an alien planted here by a strange race of beings made out of Jello. What, you won't take me at my word? Why not? :roll:

@Jay: You can have whatever private stances on things that you like, I don't care, but a public accusation was made, and as far as I can tell through my research, there is no concrete basis for it besides, again, hearsay. 

If I said the same thing about you, how would you react? How would any of you? Would you want me to prove it with something more than just my word? Then why do you require none when it's Elfman?


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## EastWest Lurker

midi_controller @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Tue Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't there to see my primate ancester come out of the forest and brave the savannah either. I do know there is enough evidence that it happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So where is the evidence that Elfman didn't write all of that score? All we have is a couple people saying they heard he didn't, and first hand accounts of people saying he did. Hey, your primate ancestor was actually an alien planted here by a strange race of beings made out of Jello. What, you won't take me at my word? Why not? :roll:
> 
> @Jay: You can have whatever private stances on things that you like, I don't care, but a public accusation was made, and as far as I can tell through my research, there is no concrete basis for it besides, again, hearsay.
> 
> If I said the same thing about you, how would you react? How would any of you? Would you want me to prove it with something more than just my word? Then why do you require none when it's Elfman?
Click to expand...


If I knew the truth and it was not costing me work, I would not care a whit. You should already know from your experiences with me that I am fairly immune to caring about what people who are not important in my life think about me.


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## gyprock

Ok. The truth has to come out. I wrote the score and orchestrated it. Just ask Batman. Robin will vouch for me as well.


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## mverta

Oh my God I can't believe this is still going on.


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## midi_controller

Same here.


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## synergy543

Holy smokes Batman! >8o [music begins...dah, dah, da da dah dah...]

[In your best Don Lafontaine voice...]
"In a world, where only one man knows the truth, others can only watch and speculate."
.
We have enough drama here for a Batman 7. A bunch of Jokers are trying to reveal the true identity of Batman. I mean, Dwarfman, Zimmerman or Elfman...whatever his name is, man. Shirley somebody knows the truth...but Shirley's not here, and Scott "somebody" is not talking. Nobody seems able to "score" an answer.

All we need is a writer now. Where's Jay lurking when we need him? Not the "lurker", but the writer, Smiley. Not Scott Smiley but Jay Smiley. We've got enough characters composers and ghost writers for a full Comcastic® episode.

[Curtains open and show begins...]
o[])
Opening cut (pardon the temp track)
btw, that's a real bat that we found in the insulation while remodeling (shot on an iPhone).


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## Shubus

And on page 130 of the score we have an instant classic for the Make a Movie cue: "Molto schmaltzando".


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