# Mastering options



## Frederick Russ (Feb 6, 2005)

I've been looking into mastering options to use in Logic. I've been looking at the MD3 TC6000 Mastering Plug in for Powercore. Anyone else have suggestions for a favorite mastering plug-in to finalize mixes? Thanks in advance.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Feb 6, 2005)

I really like the Waves stuff, but I actually use them after mixing, on the bounce in SoundForge. I don't like mastering plugins in my master bus.

In SoundForge I can run statistics, see what the loudest peak is and then quickly apply the exact amount of limiting. 

You have better visual feedback and quick undo features, so that you can first try some processing on specific segments, rollback the local changes and then apply the setting on the entire file.

Works like a charm for me.


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## FilmComposerZ (Feb 6, 2005)

I also go Peter's way. SoundForge and Waves Mastering. Mixdown in SONAR, no EQ, nothing etc. Then open in Soundforge and start the Compressing, EQing and Maximizing


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 7, 2005)

Thanks for the tip about iZotope! I'm checking out the Mac OS X version now... its cool that they let you test drive it first. 

http://www.izotope.com/


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## synergy543 (Feb 7, 2005)

Frederick Russ said:


> I've been looking into mastering options to use in Logic. I've been looking at the MD3 TC6000 Mastering Plug in for Powercore. Anyone else have suggestions for a favorite mastering plug-in to finalize mixes? Thanks in advance.


Hi Fredrick,

Be SURE to have a very close look at Elemental Audio plugins:

http://www.elementalaudio.com/

These are absolutely top class tools. Neodynium is a new compression/expansion concept that works like a charm. Firium offers filtering with no phase-shift artifacts so its a wonderful shaping tool. Don't be put off by the new concept ideas. They are really work well and are extremely easy to use. And Inspector is free and a great level monitoring tool.

I highly recommend these.

Gregory D. Moore


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 8, 2005)

I've heard of Neodynium before so thanks for the heads up regarding that - I've DL'd the demo so we'll see how it goes.

Thanks Folmann - I had a UAD in my old OS 9 Mac. I think the included plug-in suite and the optional plugs (Cambridge EQ for instance) are very cool but have wondered a lot about its compatibility with TC Powercore (which I also have for its ability to run Sony Oxford plugs.) Mixing PCI cards in PCs seems to work okay but I've heard of problems in Mac. Are there work arounds?


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## Dr.Quest (Feb 8, 2005)

synergy543 said:


> Be SURE to have a very close look at Elemental Audio plugins:
> 
> http://www.elementalaudio.com/
> 
> ...



Absolutely! These are fantastic, I love them. Takes a bit of getting used to what's going on in Neodynium at first but it's worth the effort.
J


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 8, 2005)

Hmm - I like the concept around Firium Linear Phase EQ, particularly Firium's spectrum matching feature to make one track sound more like another and its ability to store EQs for instant recall or automation. Do you have this Gregory, and if so, what do you think of it? 

I think a nice suite might be Firium and Neodynium....


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## fv (Feb 8, 2005)

Hi Frederick,

Since you mentioned that you had the UAD-1 (don't know if you still do or not), I have to recommend it also. One thing that you'll find is that, for mastering, you may need more than one tool and one package may not give you the best.

While I do like the Waves suite, I have compared the L1 and L2 to the UAD-1 Precision Limiter (PL). Night and day for me. So much so that I would avoid using either of them if I had the PL available. I found that L1 and L2 would smear the high end and low end compared to the PL. I ran the same mix through L2 as I did through the PL. Nice, tight and punchy after running through the PL at similar levels. Perhaps this was due to L1 & L2 distorting earlier, I don't know.

I have not compared the L3 (nor tried it out yet) but it is kind of a different tool now since it is multi-band so I don't know if it is an apples to apples comparison then.

UAD-1 also has a new mastering EQ which is supposed to sound great but I haven't activated the demo yet to try it out for myself. 

BTW, I have all of the Elemental Audio plugins as well and like them. Neodymium is kind of different. It works well at times on things but it is also different from a brick wall limiter. I haven't worked with it enough to say that I could use it all them time but it is fairly transaparent. Firium and Equium are good EQ's. 

I highly recommend that you try out the options yourself to see which you get along with well.

HTH,
FV


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## fv (Feb 8, 2005)

Hi Frederick,

I wanted to add also that I don't usually put any brick-wall limiter on an orchestral mix. I'll typically use limiting only where there are a few loud sections that I need to tame. I'll use it more on pop, techno, etc. stuff. The Neodymium plugin from Elemental Audio tends to work well in that orchestral type of mix where you need lots of dynamic range in your music still I've found.

HTH,
FV


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 8, 2005)

FV, I wonder how you're using the Waves limiters. Sorry if you're advanced, but I have to say the following anyway:

The L2 is amazingly transparent if you use it right, meaning if you don't try to get too much reduction with it. Sure you'll hear it eventually, but not if you're only asking it to do 3dB of gain or so.

Also, when you say "I don't use brick wall limiting on classical mixes," I wonder if you're trying to use it as a bus compressor rather than a limiter. If you just use the limiter to catch a few stray peaks, no way does it "smear" the high end.

(The difference between the L1 and L2 is the automatic release control, which buys you a little more reduction before it's audible.)

I haven't used the UA, but it would surprise me if they could beat the L2. Their limiter may be doing something different, i.e. compressing rather than limiting. Compression sound good, but it's a different thing.

Oh, and you can also use the hell out of the L2 as an effect, but that's a different thing.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Feb 8, 2005)

I agree with Nick, with the Waves L2 and L1 you will absolutely not hear any side-effects if you set it to only 3-4 dB gain. If you run it in an editor like SoundForge you call up the file statistics, note the dB value of the loudest peak and use that for the left slider in the L2 or L1. Then set the slider 3 dB lower.

Another technique that is quite usable (and common I believe) on orchestral music is a subtle upward compression. Low threshold and small ratio, typically also to gain just some 3 dB on the upper 40 dB. Can improve the overall cohesiveness and act as an hardly noticeable (but efficient) gain rider for softer passages.

2 cts...


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## fv (Feb 8, 2005)

Hi Nick,



Nick Batzdorf said:


> FV, I wonder how you're using the Waves limiters. Sorry if you're advanced, but I have to say the following anyway:



I've been around fx processing since the early 80's but no offense taken.  



> The L2 is amazingly transparent if you use it right, meaning if you don't try to get too much reduction with it. Sure you'll hear it eventually, but not if you're only asking it to do 3dB of gain or so.



Let me rephrase what I said then. I did not intend to make out the L2 as being bad (although it did sound that way). The number of recording engineers and mixers using this tool can't be all wrong.  Anyhow, my impression of the PL is that I can basically push it harder than the L2 and thus get more perceived volume out of it before artifacts on the same mix. Whether that volume is a good thing or not is another debate altogether :twisted: :lol:



> Also, when you say "I don't use brick wall limiting on classical mixes," I wonder if you're trying to use it as a bus compressor [email protected]ÿú>× ³ @ ²  ÚD42d68cb3   [email protected]öú?× ³ @ ×  Û ÚD45eb56c3 176215625644cb05843feef.jpg   @ÿú@× ˜  ² @!ÚD42d68cb3   [email protected]öúA× ¼  û W"ÚD459f6c5e 183310036745313e17bb457.gif [email protected]þúB× Î   @  Õ"ÚD47254238     @ÿúC× ¢   Ï $ÚD426e948b     @ÿúD× Ð / Ñ 7$ÚD4774813b   [email protected]þúE× È    %ÚD529d20a7   L @÷úF× žn  Ï)ÚD568d764f +http://www.btinternet.com/~marsdy/ninja.gif   @ÿúG× ™— å+ÚD47748286     @ÿúH× ˜  Ñ Œ-ÚD4774813b     @ÿúI× Ò  Û ­/ÚD5272c29b     @ÿúJ× Ç  À  µ/ÚD4b06e83d   [email protected]þúK× ¢   Œ Ý/ÚD444206cc   L @÷úL× ™n  `0ÚD568d764f +http://www.btinternet.com/~marsdy/ninja.gif   @ÿúM× Ê  Ñ Ð0ÚD4774813b   [email protected]þúN× Ç  º €1ÚD18fd7f10   [email protected]÷úO× Ó    ã5ÚD44439061 (http://www.scoredog.tv/scoredog80x80.jpg L @÷úP× Ê  n  #6ÚD568d764f +http://www.btinternet.com/~marsdy/ninja.gif ;@÷úQ× Ò     8ÚD43be58a8 53627620244af1da180ff4.jpg  [email protected]þúR× Ó   :ÚDc8a5173f   [email protected]þúS× Ó    U>ÚD4679a0dd   G@öúT× Ó  Ç   ?ÚD46bcf62f %http://www.evangamble.com/avatar4.jpg  G@öúU× Ê  Ç  [?ÚD46bcf62f %http://www.evangamble.com/avatar4.jpg  _@÷úV× Ó    {?ÚD18587abf >http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/X/J/minibush_small.jpg  [email protected]þúW× Ó     @ÚDd516aa2f     @ÿúX× Ê  Ñ {AÚD4774813b   [email protected]þúY× È    QBÚDd516aa2f   [email protected]þúZ× É    ¤BÚDd516aa2f     @ÿú[× Ô @ ² ÆEÚD42d68cb3     @ÿú\× ˜  ² IJÚD42d68cb3   N@öú]× Ó  D cMÚD1836c17b ,http://www.brianralston.com/Brian_avatar.gif     @ÿú^× Ó  Ñ äPÚD4774813b     @ÿú_× Ó  ‰ NQÚD44c60f04   [email protected]öú`× ™  –TÚD440506f2 #http://www.digitmusic.net/ronSm.jpg   @ÿúa× È  Ñ ÒTÚD4774813b   [email protected]öúb× ™  UÚD440506f2 #http://www.digitmusic.net/ronSm.jpg N@öúc× Ó  D ÝXÚD1836c17b ,http://www.brianralston.com/Brian_avatar.gif     @ÿúd× Ó  N p[ÚD545cacca     @ÿúe× ˜  N '\ÚD545cacca   [email protected]þúf× ¥   ¼]ÚDc8a5173f     @ÿúg× ˜  ² ^ÚD42


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 8, 2005)

The old UAD I had the old voltage requirements for it so it wouldn't work in Mac G5 so I sold the G4/OS-9/UAD as part of a package deal. 

I've heard great things about the Precision Limiter as well. I truly wonder how the UAD PCI card would work with my TC Powercore PCI card - some reports I heard seemed spotty at best. If it DID work it would definitely be the way to go: Sony Oxford channel EQ & compression (Powercore) with Precision Limiter (UAD).

BTW I downloaded both the izotope and the elementalaudio.com trial suites. Haven't installed them yet but that's coming real soon.


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## fv (Feb 8, 2005)

Hi Frederick,

There's a guy on the Logic User Group (yahoogroups) that uses this combination I believe. He's on a dual 1.8 G5. 

FV


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## Marsdy (Feb 9, 2005)

The L2 and the L3 both have Waves IDR dither thingymajig. 

It's interesting how the Waves Loudness Maximizers have improved. With the L2, 3 to 4 dB of gain reduction on the peaks seems to be a figure people agree works, I have my mastering preset set to -4dB. This is slightly more than you could get out of the L1 I found. With the L3 I'm finding I can get noticably more squishing. Multi-band limiting certainly seems to work. I should say I'm using the "lite" version of the L3, the full version is way overpriced.

The UAD limiter looks interesting. I'm certainly going to look into that when Logic gets delay compensation on the busses.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 9, 2005)

Scott, there's also a reported bug in the AMC PCI-X chip that all but the 1.6 and 1.8 G5s use. Apparently you can have dropouts when using PCI and Firewire at the same time. I don't really understand the details, but apparently it affects UAD cards.

In other words, it may not be as simple as the PCI bus being overloaded - not that makes the slightest bit of difference in the art world.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 9, 2005)

fv said:


> Hi Frederick,
> 
> There's a guy on the Logic User Group (yahoogroups) that uses this combination I believe. He's on a dual 1.8 G5.
> 
> FV



Given the esteemed Nick's last answer, the UAD may not work in my G5 Dual 2gHz .... hmmm - I'll still check with the guy you sent me info on - thanks.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 12, 2005)

update - Neodynium from elemental audio is really great - I was very impressed with it. Thanks for the heads up for it - I'll probably end up going that way and sticking with TC EQ SAT for equalization for now.


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## Fatnurse (Jun 8, 2005)

I recently got the MD3......simply wonderful, the brick wall is really great on it and the eq is smooth as anything!

cheers

matt


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## José Herring (Jun 22, 2005)

Thanks scott.

Now to figure out how to use a multiband compressor to expand the sound :? 

How's the multi band in SX3. Any good?

Jose


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## Scott Cairns (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi Jose, I dont own SX3 (have SX2.2), Im not sure if Cubase even ships with a multiband compressor?

I think, you can usually fix things in the mix more rather than relying on multiband compression. They can do a lot of damage to a mix if not used properly. From what I know, a mastering engineer will used some multiband compression to make some songs more "bass heavy" or whatever but this is usually a remedy to something that could have largely been addressed in the mix in the first place.

Some guys use a compressor on basses and cellos to focus the sound a bit, I like using a little compression on percussion to make it sound a little more "urgent" on occassion.

I used to be a fan of these mastering plugs, and they definetely still have their uses, but these days, I try to get it right in the mix first rather than applying blanket fx to the end product.

Dont know if this helps any, I only know enough abuot mastering really to get myself in trouble. :wink:


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## José Herring (Jun 28, 2005)

Folmann said:


> I repeat... UAD. Its absolutely the best bunch of mastering plugins I have heard till date.



Hi Folmann,

Could you tell me if you're using the full version of UAD or the lite version?

Thanks,

Jose


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## Thonex (Jul 2, 2005)

This is a pretty dear subject to me, because I "master" most of my scores before they go to the mixing stage at the post house.

I have the TC finalizer 96K, UAD-1, Ozone (by Isotope) and T-Racks... they are all great.

But for me, I need multiband compression in my mastering, so, as much as I love the UAD stuff and use it, it's not what I use for mastering.

T-Racks is amazing for anything contemporary and has a great "slam factor", but I don't like what it does to orchestral tracks.

That leaves the Finalizer and Isotope. My finalizer has been my mastering tool for about 8 or 9 years... until I got Isotope. Man... what a great sounding software. Multiband compression, nice EQ, a mastering Reverb (very useful), Brick wall limiting, Stereo spectrum stuff, etc...

Download it and try it. Like anything, in the wrong hands it will sound like crap, but I think it sounds great. That's what I've been using recently.

My 2 cents.

T


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## hasen (Jul 3, 2005)

You master it _before_ its mixed? That must be difficult..


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## Thonex (Jul 3, 2005)

hasen said:


> You master it _before_ its mixed? That must be difficult..



Before it goes to the mixing stage... as in when you score to picture, you mix your score.. master it.. then it goes to the mixing stage where they mix it with dialogue and sound FX. 

FYI, the "Mixing Stage" is the term used for the physical place the film is mixed.


Cheers,

T


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## hasen (Jul 3, 2005)

Ahh ok...my mistake  I didn't read it properly I must admit.


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