# Considering Sennheiser HD 650



## Aero10 (Jul 19, 2022)

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for my first proper pair of headphones. I would use them for mixing and also simply enjoyment of listening to music.
At this stage, I am a beginner with an untrained ear. Thus I would like to make a good pick for a piece of gear I can get accustomed to and use for years to come.

Initially I considered HD 600, but reading comments/reviews somehow convinced me the character of 650s is better suited for a beginner, as well as listening pleasure.
My audio interface is Audient ID4 mkii, if that matters in terms of compatibility. I mainly use headphones, don't have monitors nor acoustic treatment (and will remain so for the foreseeable future).

Currently I can get a pair of 650s for 310 EUR (whew no need to calculate for USD now!).
And there is also an offer for: Sonarworks Reference 4 Premium Bundle Box With Pre-calibrated Sennheiser HD 650 Headphones for 588 EUR.

I would like to ask for your opinions and maybe alternative options that could be suitable and I am not familiar with.
Is any of the mentioned deals a good pick given what can be gathered about my needs from the post?

Thank you all and best regards


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## sathyva (Jul 19, 2022)

Hi !
i use the hd650 ( not the pre-calibrated version ) with Sonarworks and it works really great. 
i use this set-up at the end of a mix and it allows me to hear some potential mistakes. 
You can’t go wrong with this set-up !


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 19, 2022)

In case you haven't watched it already, this video is really useful:



I'm tempted more by the Beyerdynamic DT990s myself, because they are fully open backed and won't overly flatter the bass. But I haven't tried any of these yet myself.


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## liquidlino (Jul 19, 2022)

I use hd650. No need for individual calibration I would say, particularly as a fellow beginner. Just use the freely available oratory profile or autoeq. 

Mixing on headphones is really hard, it's much more difficult to hear dynamics. You'll at least want to get room Sim like waves nx or can opener etc. Consider buying mixing with Mike's headphone mixing course, on sale at the moment. Covers ins and outs of mixing on headphones.


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## MartinH. (Jul 19, 2022)

Can't comment on the HD650, but my HD58x are rather uncomfortable for me to wear. If you can, I suggest to try out how the HD650 fit you before you buy them.


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## Aero10 (Jul 19, 2022)

Thank you fellows for your opinions and extra tips. I will give the HD650 a go, it seems like I can't go too wrong with it.


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## jules (Jul 19, 2022)

It's a safe bet ! You can also go the mass drop route if you're in usa (hd6xx).


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## shropshirelad (Jul 20, 2022)

I've had my 650's for about 18 years. Changed the ear pads and cables a couple of times (another benefit) but still my daily choice for general listening. You won't be disappointed. Note: I think DROP do their own, cheaper version of the 650 but not sure if they ship to Europe anymore.


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## jules (Jul 20, 2022)

shropshirelad said:


> I've had my 650's for about 18 years. Changed the ear pads and cables a couple of times (another benefit) but still my daily choice for general listening. You won't be disappointed. Note: I think DROP do their own, cheaper version of the 650 but not sure if they ship to Europe anymore.


They do ! At least in january 2022 they did, as i added a hd6xx to my aging hd650 ! Expect vat and customs stack to the price.


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## Aero10 (Jul 20, 2022)

Oh my, Drop HD6XX looks great! :O
With shipping (15 USD) and customs it would probably get close to 310 EUR, that 650s cost here in a current sale. Plus I'd prefer less hassle if I had a warranty case.
If I was located in USA though, Drop would be a no brainer.


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## MegaPixel (Jul 20, 2022)

My headphone history (of relevance)

AKG 712 Pro (People loved these, I thought they were terrible)
Beyerdynamic DT990s (way too bright for me, piercing highs, Bayerdynamic are known for this)
Senheiser HD555 (I loved these)
Senheiser HD598 (I hated these)
Senheiser HD650 (I love these, *I'm on my 2nd pair*)
HiFiMAN Sundara (I love these, but took a bit of getting used to coming from HD650)
O2 Headphone amp for when I went to the HD650s and Sundara's.

*AKG 712 Pro*
I hated everything about them... Bar their design.

*The DT990s*
A bit too bright for me, sound stage was the best I've heard though, lacking in bass). Very comfy. I sent them back to amazon as they were way too heavy on the high frequencies for me.

*HD555*
My first Senheiser's, I loved these, good bass, good all round, not too bright. The classic senheiser vale as they call it.

*HD598*
Oooof, wtf Senheiser... Bad, really bad... ebay bought, and back on ebay within a week...

*HD650*
You can't go wrong with these, easy listening for all genres, great for using with my DAW. Got the classic senheiser vale (just means its not as bright as most headphones in the top end).

*Sundara*
These are inbetween the DT990s and the HD650s, a bit brighter, good bass, a bit punchier and you can hear more detail. Very nice to use in with my DAW. However I don't use them for anything else other than my DAW, I'm back to my HD650s for everything else. Not as comfy as the HD650 but that's just a ear pad replacement (easy to do).


If you buy the DT990s, HD650s or the Sundara's you wont go wrong.

Order from Amazon, try them out and send them back if you don't like them.


*Summary (from my perspective)*

Best for mid to high freq' - Beyerdynamic
Best for sound stage - Beyerdynamic
Best for low and mid freq' - HD650
Best middle ground between Beyerdynamic and HD650 - Sundara (clearer with more detail but not as easy listening as the HD650)
Most comfortable ear muffs - Beyerdynamic > HD650 > Sundara (replacement cost 10 to 30)
Best for easy listening any genre - HD 650
Best for DAW - Sundara > HD650 > DT990s (too bright, I wouldn't buy them for this)

What would I buy again?
HD650

PS. Tried the HD600s and HD700s, they were good but just didn't match up to the HD650's for me.

PS. PS. Most definitely get a headphone amp. I have the O2 but is on it's last legs, I'm now looking at schitt Magni 3+ as a viable replacement for when it fails again. It's lasted 5+ years. But may get another O2, but a research and fact finding mission must be done before I consider it (newer model).


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## Aero10 (Jul 20, 2022)

@MegaPixel thanks so much for taking the time to share your experience with all the models!

Ah, right, the amp also >.< When it comes to that, my research starts from scratch. Good you let me know though, I appreciate the tip.


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## MegaPixel (Jul 20, 2022)

Aero10 said:


> @MegaPixel thanks so much for taking the time to share your experience with all the models!
> 
> Ah, right, the amp also >.< When it comes to that, my research starts from scratch. Good you let me know though, I appreciate the tip.


I 1st used my Scarlett 6i6 (Gen2) to power my HD650s, it was just about enough, but once I plugged a decent headphone amp in I was like oh hell yeah...

I went through a lot with amazon, many could hardly power my 650s they were so quiet at max volume it was stupid.

Then I read on a few forums about the O2 and it was being mentioned a lot and didn't cost the earth, so I took a look and contacted them and they customised it for me also with no price change (boost button lol, not volume but voltage, and it makes a difference).

The valve headphone amps I got my hands on all got sent back, great for listening or maybe pushing a guitar through but not for using with my DAW, they introduce flavour and often noise also. Not to mention cpu noise was bleeding through.

There is now a new model O2 amp, which I've not looked into but that schitt Magni 3+ has some great hype, where as the newer model O2 has not been raved about as much as the older one, but I didn't read much into it (more to do before making a decision).

My old O2 the sound stopped working, I had to wait 3 days for the internal capacitors to discharge fully till it reset and it just started working again.

PS. Use the outputs of your external audio interface to the headphone amp to stop cpu noise.


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## ZenBYD (Jul 20, 2022)

the 650s are great - absolute workhorses as well in the studio... you'll love them, can't go wrong really.

your iD4 interface will power these no problems.


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## liquidlino (Jul 20, 2022)

Audient iD4 Audio Interface Review


This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audient iD4 Audio Interface (USB DAC and ADC) plus headphone output. It was kindly sent to me by a member. The iD4 costs US $199 including Prime shipping. The build quality is quite solid: The shell is close to what Schiit uses but thicker...




audiosciencereview.com





So id4 can drive the hd650 at 25ma. Which is okayish. Similar to my Motu M2, which is fine. 

But you definitely don't want to get a low ohms headphone with that interface, it won't have any power. So hd650 is a good choice. 

If you did want to splash some cash, this is my wish list headphone amp, all the connectivity and performance could ever want:






Monolith by Monoprice THX AAA Balanced Headphone Amplifier featuring THX AAA 887 Technology - Monoprice.com


Monolith™ by Monoprice™THX® AAA Balanced Headphone AmplifierFeaturing THX AAA 887 technologyThe THX® Achromatic Audio Amplifier (AAA) ensures the ultimate no compromise headphone a



www.monoprice.com


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## gedlig (Jul 20, 2022)

MegaPixel said:


> Senheiser HD650 (I love these, *I'm on my 2nd pair*)
> HiFiMAN Sundara (I love these, but took a bit of getting used to coming from HD650)


Could you give some info how the bass compares? Currently looking at Sundara, HD650 (or HD6xx if they finally ship to my country...) and DT900 pro x. Only was able to try out Sundara at the store sometime ago and found them really lacking in bass (coming from M40x, so it might be just a case of getting used to them (and open backs in general), but I always have a problem with lack of bass and highs being too loud).

Additional info: I'm always testing them with bands like Nightwish, Vildhjarta, One ok rock, Heilung, Dir en grey and similar. Not really with pop/electronic or orchestral stuff.
Also would be running them through NI Komplete audio 2 (edit: but looking into replacing it with an ID14 mk2).


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## MegaPixel (Jul 20, 2022)

gedlig said:


> Could you give some info how the bass compares? Currently looking at Sundara, HD650 (or HD6xx if they finally ship to my country...) and DT900 pro x. Only was able to try out Sundara at the store sometime ago and found them really lacking in bass (coming from M40x, so it might be just a case of getting used to them (and open backs in general), but I always have a problem with lack of bass and highs being too loud).
> 
> Additional info: I'm always testing them with bands like Nightwish, Vildhjarta, One ok rock, Heilung, Dir en grey and similar. Not really with pop/electronic or orchestral stuff.
> Also would be running them through NI Komplete audio 2 (edit: but looking into replacing it with an ID14 mk2).



*Which ones got the best bass*
The HD650 most definitely has better overall bass than the Sundara's, but it's not as clean or as punchy (don't think punchy as in, boom in your face, more clinical and will feel like less bass).

*Open back vs Closed back headphones bass*
This is something to get used to, the soundstage on open back headphones is far better than closed back, but the bass on closed back is far better. Now that I've got used to open back headphones I will never go back but it did take some getting used to. If your into base then you want closed back and I've not got anything mid tier audiophile to advise on there.

*DT9xx series (pretty much all beyerdynamic)*
They are not really great for bass, they shine in the mid to high frequencies showing up things you would never hear from most other headphones.

*Genre specifics*
For more rock based genres I would probably go for the HD650s, if your dealing with stuff that has more precision then the Sundara's would be better. The beyerdynamic would just blow the top end out of proportion for everything and need serious EQing.


HD650 is an allrounder, I'm not sure I would consider the Sundara's if I was pure rock / metal focused, but as I am electronic focused (synths, pads, scapes, pianos etc) they are excellent. You can't go wrong with the HD650. If you need to focus on detail a bit more then the Sundara's win you need to deal with a bit less bass but more accurate. If you want a more easy going senheiser experience it's the HD650's and will be good for anything you throw at them.

*If I was just buying headphones for listening to music it would be the HD650s.

I think the HD650's are probably the choice for you, but try them out first if you can.

NOTE: If buying from new you need to wear them in a bit.*


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## gedlig (Jul 20, 2022)

MegaPixel said:


> *Which ones got the best bass*
> The HD650 most definitely has better overall bass than the Sundara's, but it's not as clean or as punchy (don't think punchy as in, boom in your face, more clinical and will feel like less bass).
> 
> *Open back vs Closed back headphones bass*
> ...


Thanks


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## Thundercat (Jul 20, 2022)

shropshirelad said:


> I've had my 650's for about 18 years. Changed the ear pads and cables a couple of times (another benefit) but still my daily choice for general listening. You won't be disappointed. Note: I think DROP do their own, cheaper version of the 650 but not sure if they ship to Europe anymore.


The DROP ones are the same quality as the originals. They are superb and less money. I don't know how DROP do it.


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## rsg22 (Jul 29, 2022)

The HD 650's are great - I love mine for listening. It sounds like you already made a decision, but if not, check out the Sennheiser 560S's (that's an "S" on the end). The 560S's are made for mixing - better sound field and imaging, more accurate frequency response, etc. However, they're not as pleasant for casual listening. The 650's and 560S's are IMO the perfect combination.


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## kevinh (Jul 29, 2022)

HD6xx from drop are awesome. Sonarworks also includes an HD6xx profile.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 29, 2022)

BTW, the HD650s (love mine also) are 300 ohm which can sometimes be too high for certain audio interfaces, but NOT for your Audient iD4 MKII, the HD650s are rated for a whopping 80mw output from the headphone jack. You won't need a headphone amp with that audio interface. The MKII version can easily handle 16 ohm cans up to 600 ohm and work great, although 600ohm headphones would be quieter. Moot point, the 300-ohm 650s will work great, much better than on my Babyface Pro!


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## pinki (Jul 30, 2022)

Aero10 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm looking for my first proper pair of headphones. I would use them for mixing and also simply enjoyment of listening to music.


See for me these are two very different and opposed demands.

I highly recommend getting a pair of planar magnetic headphones for mixing duties as they have an extremely precise phase response and tend towards a more flat and neutral sound, Of course there are different manufacturers with different takes on planar magnetic so you need to audition but the way the drivers work produces a whole different world than traditional dynamic headphones for mixing.

I have Oppo PM3’s and they provide an alternative to my ATC monitors but I never use them for “simply enjoying music”!


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## Aero10 (Jul 30, 2022)

Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts and experience. Indeed I went with HD650 and gave it a test run yesterday. If I could get the DROP for significantly lower price here, it would be a tough decision.



> BTW, the HD650s (love mine also) are 300 ohm which can sometimes be too high for certain audio interfaces, but NOT for your Audient iD4 MKII


It sure turned out that way, it works great with my interface. When buying the interface I was not yet considering headphones. So it was a lucky draw I guess.

Before trying the 650s out I expected to be blown away by the difference in audio quality I will hear as compared to speakers and headset I used up to now. I have to admit, slightly embarrassed, that this wasn't really the case. Perhaps a little detail here and there if I paid close attention.
I suppose it just goes to say what a long way I have to go with ear training and being capable of making good mixing decisions. Which is fine, as long as it's not some serious hearing impairment, I can live with that. Wish me luck!


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## Aero10 (Jul 30, 2022)

pinki said:


> See for me these are two very different and opposed demands.


I think I understand what you mean. For the time being, I hope I hit a relatively good middle ground with the 650s. And after reading countless threads on ViC, I expect it's going to be (probably many) years before I will have to be considering mixing headphones which will make a difference in a mix for me.


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## liquidlino (Jul 30, 2022)

Aero10 said:


> Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts and experience. Indeed I went with HD650 and gave it a test run yesterday. If I could get the DROP for significantly lower price here, it would be a tough decision.
> 
> 
> It sure turned out that way, it works great with my interface. When buying the interface I was not yet considering headphones. So it was a lucky draw I guess.
> ...


Have you applied corrective eq to the hd650? Makes an enormous difference. Without eq they are quite dark and lacking sub bass or spatial presence. They come to life with eq applied. Try oratory1990 settings in an eq on your monitoring FX chain.


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## Aero10 (Jul 30, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Have you applied corrective eq to the hd650? Makes an enormous difference. Without eq they are quite dark and lacking sub bass or spatial presence. They come to life with eq applied. Try oratory1990 settings in an eq on your monitoring FX chain.


You could probably guess the answer to that :D
Well, damn, that's a whole new world opened up to explore now. Thanks for the tip!


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## vitocorleone123 (Aug 3, 2022)

More important than sound: comfort.

Sennheiser can be especially uncomfortable for people who wear glasses and have a rounder head. I don’t care how good they might be if I can’t use them. And I can’t use them.

I went with DT880pro 250 with SoundID instead. I can wear them for many hours-my hearing will need to rest before my ears or head do.

Not saying Sennheiser are bad. Just saying that people should remember the comfort aspect and just how critical it is for headphones.

Powering them: my 6i6gen2 didn’t quite cut it. My Clarett4pre has more than enough power.


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 3, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> More important than sound: comfort.
> 
> Sennheiser can be especially uncomfortable for people who wear glasses and have a rounder head. I don’t care how good they might be if I can’t use them. And I can’t use them.
> 
> ...


I agree, which is why it is really important to try the headphones before buying them, if at all possible.

For what it is worth: I have glasses, a largeish (-ish; broad more than large) head plus thick hair, and very easily irritated ears. So, yes, this is something I worry about! I also have some hearing issues - which isn't all that uncommon amongst those of us with a history of loud live music and/or Walkmans/personal stereos in our youths. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that open backed headphones will not only be more comfortable, but also less of a strain on my ears.


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## MegaPixel (Aug 3, 2022)

You can always buy replacement pads for each of these kinds of earphones, should be around 30 to 45. But I've never had problems wearing my hd650s for many hours with glasses on or off. But I will say the Bayer dynamic ones I had many years ago were so comfortable I didn't want to take them off, I could have slept head side ways into pillow with them on  Just a shame they were hurting my ears in the high end with the piercing high stabs, and I don't want to EQ that much out.

The ones that irritate me are the ones that are not fabric, my ears sweat a lot in them.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Aug 3, 2022)

It’s fun to read about people splashing the cash on headphones and “room” correction software. I can make anything slap with a pair of Sony 7506s. I don’t get what all the fuss is about. I haven’t used 650s but I prefer the Sonys to my Sennheiser 280s both for sound and comfort.


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## MegaPixel (Aug 4, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> It’s fun to read about people splashing the cash on headphones and “room” correction software. I can make anything slap with a pair of Sony 7506s. I don’t get what all the fuss is about. I haven’t used 650s but I prefer the Sonys to my Sennheiser 280s both for sound and comfort.


HD 555s were £60 when I bought them and sounded like the 650s, which if your short on money you can find on ebay often for less than 50% the full price. I'm only on my 3rd Senheiser headphones, they last a very very long time.

As for the Sennheiser 280s, I wouldn't waste the time moving them out of impending doom if I could. 

But hey, it's nice for you to drop in and let us know you can make anything slap with the Sony 7506s...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 4, 2022)

Aero10 said:


> I think I understand what you mean. For the time being, I hope I hit a relatively good middle ground with the 650s. And after reading countless threads on ViC, I expect it's going to be (probably many) years before I will have to be considering mixing headphones which will make a difference in a mix for me.


I have the HD600's, love them (prefer them over the 650). I highly recommend grabbing Sonarworks Headphone Edition and using the profile for your 650's. You'll be amazed by the details they reveal in your mixes. One thing to note is that everything will sound strange once you calibrate them, but that's what you want...a flat response. Sonarworks isn't for everyone, but it took my mixing to another level once you get used to it.


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## method1 (Aug 4, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> It’s fun to read about people splashing the cash on headphones and “room” correction software. I can make anything slap with a pair of Sony 7506s. I don’t get what all the fuss is about. I haven’t used 650s but I prefer the Sonys to my Sennheiser 280s both for sound and comfort.


Andrew Scheps, is that you?



Long time HDXX owner, I find them very comfy to work with & recently started using them with dsoniq realphones which imo is a very nice combo.


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## PeterN (Aug 12, 2022)

I tried my new HD 660s yesterday (quite similar to HD650 from what I understand). Maybe not most neutral curve, but boy was the stereo field good. Didn't see this topic really, usually its about bass etc. Hell, could immediately hear that need to pan the violin left etc etc. Before these have been using AKG Q702, ATH-M50x and Beyerdynamics DT 770 (these were my first ones, but are ditched now).

First impression is same what A-K Dern says in that vid starting 12.30. They got an excellent stereo field clarity.

Need to re-mix now...


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## Sombreuil (Aug 13, 2022)

Aero10 said:


> Before trying the 650s out I expected to be blown away by the difference in audio quality I will hear as compared to speakers and headset I used up to now. I have to admit, slightly embarrassed, that this wasn't really the case. Perhaps a little detail here and there if I paid close attention.
> I suppose it just goes to say what a long way I have to go with ear training...


- You were expecting too much, it's not your fault though. People love to make a fuss about sound quality.

- Unlike Anne-Kathrin Dern said in the video above, headphones do not break in or whatever it's supposed to be call. If you don't like them day one, you won't like them in 6 months or 10 years.You will hear a difference after some time, but only because the earpads aren't new anymore.

- HD 650 / 600 barely need any EQ.

If you don't like these headphones, try something else. Don't waste your money or your time thinking you're the problem, or that there is a magical piece of hardware that will make them sound good.


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## Vik (Aug 13, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> or that there is a magical piece of hardware that will make them sound good


...but there is.  The main guy behind AudioScienceReview pretty much says that all headphones sound better with some EQ. Besides, without trying, we don't know how our own ears respond to sending the audio signal through a good DAC-amp (if needed) and some degree of EQ.

Btw, HD650 sound 'better' than HD600 in my opinion – it's easier to get the (false, but good) impression that you sit in a good concert hall with the 650s than with the 600s, but the 600s has a little more 'bite' and clarity/representation when it comes to minor details. 

If I ever would have been in the situation where I'd have to mix without speakers, I would never rely on one headphone set only.


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## Sombreuil (Aug 13, 2022)

Vik said:


> ...but there is.  The main guy behind AudioScienceReview pretty much says that all headphones sound better with some EQ.


He's right about that, but it's a (free) software, not hardware. Plus the HD 650 / 600 are known to sound amazing even without EQ'ing them. You might need a headphone amp depending how you use them, sure, but they won't sound better, just louder.
Also, a DAC doesn't have a sound signature, if you hear it, it only means it's a bad DAC and you need to replace it.


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## tmhuud (Aug 13, 2022)

I LOVE my 650, and my 600's but I LOATHE my HD 25-1 II's.


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## Pier (Aug 13, 2022)

I've been using a pair of planar T50RP mk3 (vanilla) as my main headphones for some time and I haven't used my HD600 in years. I went back to them the other day to check a mix and... I was shocked.

It was like going from a 4K HDR image to a black and white picture from the 1920s. In comparison the HD600 had almost no 3D depth, muffled high end, muddy low end, no deep low end and limited soundstage. I mean I never loved the response of the HD600 (Sennheiser veil etc) but this was a bit extreme. It's like someone turned off the Atmos.

I think I might have somehow trained my brain to listen with the T50RP and now it doesn't know how to interpret stuff with the HD600... or something 😂

The weird thing is that I don't get such an extreme change with my DT990 and the HD280 Pro.


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> I've been using a pair of planar T50RP mk3 (vanilla) as my main headphones for some time and I haven't used my HD600 in years. I went back to them the other day to check a mix and... I was shocked.
> 
> It was like going from a 4K HDR image to a black and white picture from the 1920s. In comparison the HD600 had almost no 3D depth, muffled high end, muddy low end, no deep low end and limited soundstage. I mean I never loved the response of the HD600 (Sennheiser veil etc) but this was a bit extreme. It's like someone turned off the Atmos.
> 
> ...


Those T50R mk3's aren't even that expensive, are they? Fostex, or do I have the wrong product?


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## Sombreuil (Aug 13, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Those T50R mk3's aren't even that expensive, are they? Fostex, or do I have the wrong product?


It's an unfair comparison since the T50RP mk3 are planar headphones. Of course the soundstage will seem wider, it's their purpose.
Also:


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 13, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> It's an unfair comparison since the T50RP mk3 are planar headphones. Of course the soundstage will seem wider, it's their purpose.
> Also:



I don't know if fairness is relevant here. If the goal is to choose headphones for a job, the job sets the criteria, not the headphones themselves. But, it's a good point that different headphones are delivering different things and are not good or bad as such; but good or bad at at different things.

But, yes, it is never a good idea to think that spending more will get better results. It would be a relief, though, if I could come to the conclusion that the headphones I want don't cost more than I can afford!


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## Sombreuil (Aug 13, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I don't know if fairness is relevant here. If the goal is to choose headphones for a job, the job sets the criteria, not the headphones themselves. But, it's a good point that different headphones are delivering different things and are not good or bad as such; but good or bad at at different things.
> 
> But, yes, it is never a good idea to think that spending more will get better results. It would be a relief, though, if I could come to the conclusion that the headphones I want don't cost more than I can afford!


I think fairness is still relevant in the sense that, depending of the song/album, having a wider soundstage isn't necessarily a good thing. I agree with you on the fact that one needs to judge a pair of headphones based on the results. Tha being said, as you said each pair has its own purposes.

That's the reason why I used the word "unfair", because if Sennheiser wanted a wider soundstage with the 600/650s, they would have used angled drivers like they did with the 598/560S.
I'm also pretty sure voices sound more accurate on the Sennheiser than on the Fostex, due to the fact that planar headphones tend to be less "in the face".


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 13, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> I think fairness is still relevant in the sense that, depending of the song/album, having a wider soundstage isn't necessarily a good thing. I agree with you on the fact that one needs to judge a pair of headphones based on the results. Tha being said, as you said each pair has its own purposes.
> 
> That's the reason why I used the word "unfair", because if Sennheiser wanted a wider soundstage with the 600/650s, they would have used angled drivers like they did with the 598/560S.
> I'm also pretty sure voices sound more accurate on the Sennheiser than on the Fostex, due to the fact that planar headphones tend to be less "in the face".


If you'll excuse the pun: fair enough! That all sounds spot on to me.


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## Fidelity (Aug 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> I've been using a pair of planar T50RP mk3 (vanilla) as my main headphones for some time and I haven't used my HD600 in years. I went back to them the other day to check a mix and... I was shocked.
> 
> It was like going from a 4K HDR image to a black and white picture from the 1920s. In comparison the HD600 had almost no 3D depth, muffled high end, muddy low end, no deep low end and limited soundstage. I mean I never loved the response of the HD600 (Sennheiser veil etc) but this was a bit extreme. It's like someone turned off the Atmos.
> 
> ...


Planars are definitely a big deal and don't have enough recognition outside of the audiophile community. Their bass response is just so much better for anything outside movies and bass heavy EDM...less boom, more actual sound. Really shine with jazz. Used to have DT880s and then Drop 650s, now using Hifiman Devas. Won't be going back either.


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## Pier (Aug 13, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Those T50R mk3's aren't even that expensive, are they? Fostex, or do I have the wrong product?


Yeah these are the ones. Amazing value for the price IMO.

If you get them, give em some time. They might feel harsh the first couple of days because there's so much detail. Not sure if they soften up somehow or I just got used to the sound.

The stock pads are ok but not super comfortable (some people find them horrible). I've been using them for about a year and actually installed these new pads just today to improve comfort. The sound has changed too... I'm still acclimating myself.



Fidelity said:


> Planars are definitely a big deal and don't have enough recognition outside of the audiophile community. Their bass response is just so much better for anything outside movies and bass heavy EDM...less boom, more actual sound. Really shine with jazz. Used to have DT880s and then Drop 650s, now using Hifiman Devas. Won't be going back either.


I agree.

I'm happy with the Fostex but I've been lusting after the Sundara for some time now. I only got the Fostex because they were cheap and wanted to "try this planar thing". I'm a convert now 😂


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## Fidelity (Aug 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah these are the ones. Amazing value for the price IMO.
> 
> If you get them, give em some time. They might feel harsh the first couple of days because there's so much detail. Not sure if they soften up somehow or I just got used to the sound.
> 
> ...


I've heard good things about the Sundaras. I bought the Devas in an open box sale for the bluetooth option (don't make the mistake I did...their BT receiver is hot garbage unless the Deva Pros fixed everything) but have found them to be hands down the most comfortable headphones I've ever owned. Can wear for hours and forget they're there. Sure, they're a bit larger and dorkier looking than Sundaras but that's a small price to pay imo. Additional bonus for the standard Devas - they take a standard 3.5mm cable (and can work with balanced TRRS afaik).


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## Vik (Aug 13, 2022)

I have tried a couple of Sundaras, and they sounded different. The explanation was, according to the salesman, that Sundaras made before a certain date sounded brighter. When he understood that I wasn't that impressed with the newer Sundara model, he said that he agreed and "don't forget that it's one of the lower end Hifiman models". I also tried them, btw, with two different DAC-amps, which of course also made a difference.

There are many second hand Sundaras on eBay, so those who want the earlier model could maybe find one there, at a good price.


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## ckett (Aug 14, 2022)

I prefer the sound of the 660S. Better highs and lows and not as forward mids. Soundstage slightly wider, slightly.


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## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

Vik said:


> The explanation was, according to the salesman, that Sundaras made before a certain date sounded brighter.


Well that's true. There was a revision in 2020 or 2021 IIRC.



Vik said:


> There are many second hand Sundaras on eBay, so those who want the earlier model could maybe find one there, at a good price.


Yeah unfortunately with shipping and import taxes to Mexico I end up paying more than buying them new through Amazon. You people in the US don't know how easy you have it!


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## A.Dern (Aug 15, 2022)

I would always give headphones some time to get used to. I remember being similarly disappointed after initially getting the HD650s. I had been used to the sound of the DT880s so the "veiled" sound of the HD650s seemed way too warm for me at first... almost a bit dull or muffled. But after using them for a week or two I got used to their sound and started to appreciate the different nuances. Now I can switch back and forth between the HD650s and the DT880s despite their sound differences because I'm used to both.

Something similar just happened to me listening through a proper preamp to the HD800S and the HD820. Both retail for between $1800 and $2000 plus tax so I had high expectations. It was mildly disappointing. They were obviously fantastic but not $1600 more fantastic than the HD650s. They were impressively flat and had an amazing stereo depth which is great for mixing and critical listening but they were also kind of... unenjoyable and boring? I'm sure with some extra time I'd come to appreciate the nuances of headphones like that but overall it's currently not worth the purchase for me.

Another thing to keep in mind: Our preferences might change over time as well, depending on the kind of music we write / listen to but also depending on how our ears develop over time. Something tells me I will enjoy the Sennheiser veil a lot less as I'm aging, and I'll come to love headphones that have crisper high frequencies as those are the ones we're losing with age.


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## Aceituna (Dec 13, 2022)

ZenBYD said:


> the 650s are great - absolute workhorses as well in the studio... you'll love them, can't go wrong really.
> 
> your iD4 interface will power these no problems.


I have a DT990 PRO and I'm thinking of buying a HD 650 for mixing. Is the upgrade worth it?
On the other hand, I use a Presonus Studio 68c (I also have a Steinberg UR22). Would I need a headphone amplifier to use the HD 650?
Would the HD 560s better for mixing?
Thanks for your help.


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## Sombreuil (Dec 14, 2022)

Upgrade isn't the correct word, it's a matter of preference. Is one better than the other? No. They're just different and it all depends on what you're looking for.
The HD 650s have a narrow soundstage, meanwhile the DT990s are more flattering, a bit too much some would say.
Don't except to reach a new standard with a new pair of headphones, otherwise you'll be extremely disappointed.


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## ZenBYD (Dec 14, 2022)

I recommend the 650s to any one that will listen... been mixing on them for years and can't fault them. get spare ear pads and a cable.

thing with any listening device... headphones... speakers... you need to get used to them and learn them. listen to a lot of things on them. live with them. I know a lot of guys that deliver mixes done on 650s... and get great results. 

as with all headphones its easy to get bass heavy. check your mix on your tv... you know... usual rules apply.

most audio interfaces will drive 650s just fine ... the need for a dedicated phones amp is much reduced these days


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## Aceituna (Dec 14, 2022)

ZenBYD said:


> I recommend the 650s to any one that will listen... been mixing on them for years and can't fault them. get spare ear pads and a cable.
> 
> thing with any listening device... headphones... speakers... you need to get used to them and learn them. listen to a lot of things on them. live with them. I know a lot of guys that deliver mixes done on 650s... and get great results.
> 
> ...


However, as I'm finding out, quite a few people seem to recommend the HD560s for mixing.
I'm hesitating between HD650 and HD560s.
I don't know if I'm letting myself be influenced because they are also cheaper.


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## Sombreuil (Dec 14, 2022)

Aceituna said:


> However, as I'm finding out, quite a few people seem to recommend the HD560s for mixing.
> I'm hesitating between HD650 and HD560s.
> I don't know if I'm letting myself be influenced because they are also cheaper.


650s: 
Amazing for voices since they are more "straight to the face". One could say they are more precise due to their soundstage being narrower compared to the 560s.
They also match the Harman Curve quite well and barely need any EQ.
Bass extension isn't great, meaning that you won't "feel" it. Not necessarily a problem depending on the music you'll mix.
Clamping force is very high so it can be uncomfortable

560s:
Better bass extension and wider soundstage. The plus is that it's more versatile, the counterpart is that voices will feel less precise.
Quite comfortable.

Int he end, there is no good or bad choice, they are just different.


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## Lunatique (Dec 14, 2022)

I have bought and sold tens of thousands of dollars worth of headphones and headphone amps in the last 15 years, and the HD650 is one of the few I've kept. It is relatively neutral compared to many other headphones, and it is easy to listen to and comfortable. The relatively low price is also nice too--especially if you go for the Massdrop HD6xx version, which is the same thing and sounds the same, but just with cheaper material. 

I EQ all my headphones for maximum accuracy in frequency response, and there are also products out there that will do it for you, as others have already mentioned. I prefer to do it myself because those universal EQ curves to "correct" headphones are assuming you have perfect hearing, but if there's anything idiosyncratic about your hearing, you should do it yourself so you get the most accurate frequency response for your own hearing.


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## PeterN (Dec 27, 2022)

Bought an extra cable to my HD 660s, when I finally got a hold on one. Said on many websites production has stopped or unavailable.

But this cable. How can a pair of 450 EUR headphones have this type of cable. Seems to be same or similar as HD 650. Do we need to get into details.


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