# Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1 (see new thread)



## synergy543 (Jun 7, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

That's both an awesome sound and a spectacular performance! 

For me, this is and example of where samples actually surpass any real recording I've heard.

Thanks for sharing! o/~


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 7, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

:roll:


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 7, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

Thanks tomgahagan and Greg! :D I'm very proud of this performance.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 7, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*



Narval @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> From Chopin's point of view, clearly stated in his score, that was not the way this piece is supposed to sound. If Chopin wanted it to sound that way, he would have marked it that way on the paper. Which he hasn't. So, from Chopin's point of view, as stated in the score, the dynamics and tempo fluctuation in this performance are dead wrong.
> 
> To venture an opinion, the cause of the gap between the score and the performance might be that the player has taken too many unfit liberties, probably because his understanding of this piece is at odds with Chopin's clearly notated intentions.
> 
> ...




Narval,

Music is not about mathematics and metronome markings and playing exactly what is written on a sheet of music, it's about communicating emotions through music. I have a Masters in piano performance and been playing long enough to know something, even if I'm no Pollini. One could play strictly what's on the page and no emotion will come out. I have been listening to the greatest pianist play this Etude, Ashkenazy, Argeritch, Pollini, etc Some play it conservatively which I find a bore, and others take more liberty. I opted to make it more my own, but with some inspiration here and there from these pianists. I got a lot of great reactions of people who really enjoyed this performance, and this is what it's all about. There is not just one single way of performing music. I also take more or less seriously your comment, had you started off by saying just one positive thing I might of given it more credibility, so I question your intentions here. I have several editions of the Chopin Etudes and I also have Urtext, the original edition, what Chopin indicated. But that's academic stuff compared to being able to make music out of this, do you understand what I'm saying? It's all about music!


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## synergy543 (Jun 7, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*



Narval @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> From Chopin's point of view, clearly stated in his score, that was not the way this piece is supposed to sound. If Chopin wanted it to sound that way, he would have marked it that way on the paper. Which he hasn't. So, from Chopin's point of view, as stated in the score, the dynamics and tempo fluctuation in this performance are dead wrong.
> 
> To venture an opinion, the cause of the gap between the score and the performance might be that the player has taken too many unfit liberties, probably because his understanding of this piece is at odds with Chopin's clearly notated intentions.
> 
> ...





Narval said:


> "The notes on a manuscript are not the music."
> 
> "Notation is a rough estimate of the music at best."


Narval, seems to me, that's your opinion changes depending upon the thread and you're simply trolling for a reaction to your inciteful comment?

If you know of a recording with a better sound and performance, please tell us.


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## nikolas (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*



Narval @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> From Chopin's point of view, clearly stated in his score, that was not the way this piece is supposed to sound. If Chopin wanted it to sound that way, he would have marked it that way on the paper. Which he hasn't. So, from Chopin's point of view, as stated in the score, the dynamics and tempo fluctuation in this performance are dead wrong.
> 
> To venture an opinion, the cause of the gap between the score and the performance might be that the player has taken too many unfit liberties, probably because his understanding of this piece is at odds with Chopin's clearly notated intentions.


This is an interesting topic actually!

I don't know if you compose a lot, less, or at all. I've heard at least a couple of pieces of you, very few played live (the trio and a quartet) and both were highly interesting. But I wasn't able to grab the scores at that time and so I couldn't see how close your intentions were to those of the performers! Even more, if I remember correctly, at least in the case of the quartet you were highly disappointed (it was a workshop if I remember correctly?)

And we have argued about this in the past, in a post in SOL forums about my own quartet, which was taken from a workshop. I was quite happy at the performance, whereas you thought it was almost insulting (the performance). 

The big question here is this:

Is EVERYTHING written in the scores? 

I will attempt to reply, by answering the almost obvious: NO!!!!!! The intentions are rather indicative of what the compose wanted, but you can never be sure. In fact, if I recall correctly, Chopin would alter the work slightly with each performance.

The score (borrowed by pshychology) is a snapshot of a specific point in time in the composers head. "f" and "allegro" and "cresc" show some intentions but they are limited to how far you are going to go. It's impossible to state that the "f" is too loud, unless you have something to compare it with (the next or the previous note, another passage marked "ff" where the sound seems of equal loudness, etc). Same goes for allegro, which means literally "cheerful or brisk" if I recall correctly! So what bpm you assign to that? The ones that the editor put with his own descretion? 

How is it that you get vastly different performances about the same works? I mean if the score is a definite version of the music, then we should be getting very close results, yet... Yes, agreed, some performances were rubbish, but others are equally masterful (Gould...).

What happens with older scores? Or scores that have been through generations of editing, altering, publishing, etc? Who do you... trust? The editor? The first editor? The manuscript? Where do you get the manuscript? Do you need all this bloody research to play a piece after all? For every single piece?
_______________________

Thanks for posting this Guy! A very interesting work, and a very enjoyable performance! I think that this is the first piece by the Imperial that I enjoyed! (Yikes...). 

If I was to offer any comment for the performance, that would be that the whole etude seems a tiny bit (only a tiny) 'too clean', so I'm wondering if you after touched it a bit. It doesn't really matter, and it could very well be that I'm guessing this because this is the VI-control and not Piano-control... :D So the blame IS probably on me!


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## nikolas (Jun 8, 2010)

I'm afraid it's true synergy... You mixed up the posts... :-/

Other than that, my point, above, still stands of course.


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## nikolas (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*



Narval @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> Nikolas, yes, I think your general points generally stand. It's just that in this particular piece, should he want so, Chopin would have written it differently, à la Guy Bacos for example. Which brings me to his reaction to my critical but politely stated points.


Fair enough. So this is about a very particular piece, which was written with no tempo alterations and very slight dynamic alterations, if I recall the urtext edition rightly...



> Guy, that was just so typical of you, the usual straw man. Only that this time there's more to it, this time the ingredients of your rationalization are so unexpectedly pulpy that it's worth taking a closer look:


I'm just flagging my red flag here to be careful not to take it too careful. And this goes for both of you!

I'm skipping several points, but I find interest in a few ones, so I will stand a bit longer on these.



> _1. Narval,_
> Pointing your finger down, ex cathedra: calling for everyone's attention to the exemplary lecture (and lesson) to come, also giving unmistakable direction to the crushing hammer that is about to fall.


just want to mention that I, quite often, address the other poster with his (nick)name and a comma, so I'm not sure that Guy is lecturing you. THIS seems like a misunderstanding...



> _2. Music is not about mathematics and metronome markings_
> It's not?? How disappointing, ain't it? But you know, if you think of it, you're missing a big part of what music is about when you rule out the interpreter/translator duty to express the composer's intentions. And with this piece you fail big time as interpreter.


It's not ONLY about maths and metronome markings, I do agree, so I find that both of you are right! 



> _3. playing exactly what is written on a sheet of music_
> That's truly elementary. When it comes to Western Classical music, you got to play it exactly as written. If you don't see the absolute necessity of that, maybe jazz, or pop, or ethno are more for you. I'm sorry, but you failed even at this basic level of playing correctly. Because, you see, it's not your music, it's the composer's. And you can only interpret the composer's music by playing it exactly as written. Disregard this basic principle and you have lost the most fundamental reason Western Classical music continues to exists. In this piece you show complete disrespect for this principle, and for the composer. I don't think Chopin, should he live, would let you play his music.


This is one of the very big points and issues in classical music.

Scores are NOT meant to be taken literally, generally speaking of course (cause some works by Boulez and Ligeti ONLY work if the performers are better than a computer in timing and dynamics! :D).

The _idea_ the music belongs to the composer, but the realisation does belong to the performer(s) as well! If I wanted to stretch it better, and go back to pshychology I'd even say that the music also belongs to the listener, who has a choice on how to listen to a piece of music (and it IS basic, cause each person have their own interests, own experiences, own preferances, so each person is listening literally to a different version of the piece! Especially in a live performance).

I'm a composer and I AM trying to chose the performers who will play my pieces, but by doing so, I'm also allowing them a certain amount of freedom! I'm not trying tp make out who will be the best in playing MY intentions, but who will caltivate their intentions with mine and produce... a true performance and not a photocopy of the piece transfered in audio.



> _5. I have a Masters in piano performance and been playing long enough to know something_
> Your belief in your own authority doesn't prove anything else except your belief in your authority. It doesn't make you right. I'd even say that your need for such a childish argument rather proves your insecurity and weakness.


Probably trying to say that he does play the piano and he's not a 13 year old who doesn't know what he's talking about. Personally I have decided that WHAT the person says matter, but also WHO this person is. It's a combination.



> _6. One could play strictly what's on the page and no emotion will come out._
> Emotion never comes out of the performance, it just can't. Emotion is entirely the listener's business. Besides, this a really funny logic to imply that playing different than written on paper would ensure emotion to "come out."


True! and you both fall to my words above! 



> _7. I have been listening to the greatest pianist play this Etude, Ashkenazy, Argeritch, Pollini, etc _
> Your appeal to authority is counterproductive, Guy, the authority argument is never a good idea. That's only too bad for you that those performances have influenced your decision to override Chopin's clearly stated intentions.


Yes, but each one of us is learning how to acknowledge and decipher the intentions of the composer, because they are not always very clear! In that case, it could very well be that the translation is starting wrong, because the performer is mirroring his teachers mistakes. And assuming that Beethoven and Mozart (and Chopin) were piano teachers, it could potentially be, that their version, even of their own music, was flawed! 



> _12. There is not just one single way of performing music._
> No, but you are supposed to tend to that perfect performance, although most likely you'll never attain it. The enlightenment is on the road towards it.


Is there a perfect performance? Because even back in 1966 or so, Gould abandoned all live performances to create exactly that idea of the perfect performance. He started creating records, with heavy editing, etc... 

But still I see people playing and I have no reference from anyone calling that Gould's performances were 'perfect', nor anyone else's!

I suppose that in today's time, with all the available tools, it should be easy to create the perfect performance!

But I'd like to think that there isn't one! Especially since classical music (concert hall music) is intended for live performances and not recorded ones! In which case this means that between the time that the etude was performed and today, there have been literally millions of performances. Even if one perfect existed, it's long gone (or perhaps it's the previous one, that Guy never had a chance to record!). 



> _14. I have several editions of the Chopin Etudes and I also have Urtext, the original edition, what Chopin indicated._
> That gives you no excuse for slapping him with his score over his face.


Yes, but it could be that Guy had researched prior to making this recording, and thus he has noticed everything that needs to be addressed in the score and in his performance. (??)

Again, guys, take it easy and enjoy the discussion and the music!


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

Narval, I'm so glad you were around Chopin's time and heard Chopin play this piece so you could tell us exactly Chopin's personal intentions. Chopin had a unique rubato playing style, this music is not Czerny's straight etudes to be played in perfect equal time in front of sister Marjory, with her big old metronome set at 180 from beginning to end...* These Etudes are concert pieces*! But the world is very fortunate to have Narval, the ghost of the past, to explain to us everything about Chopin's interpretation. 

And even if it was different from Chopin's intention, so what? Is that a sin? I heard Chopin say: "Everything must be played exactly the way it's written." But apparently when Liszt played Chopin's music and with all the liberty he would take, Chopin responed: "Nobody plays my music like Liszt!" Liszt probably showed some *tasteful *creativeness as oppose to many mediocre pianists of his time, which would explain why Chopin said: "Stick with what I wrote". Better that than playing it like a Czerny study.

I have no problems with constructive comments, just review my history, and I post a lot of music here, however your comment is not what I call "constructive", you obviously have a problem with me, it's interesting, I post tons of pieces on various forums, and it is always the same few people who seem to have an issue with me, they never posted a single comment on one of my compositions, and the rare time they do post something, they seem to have figured out what for them is a flaw and right away jump on the opportunity to try and belittle me. It's not going to work Narval, I can tell you this.

I think you should learn from others how to post credible comments, just look at the comments of re-peat, John G, Nikloas, Midphase, Frederick, stevenson-again and many more, *they haven't always agreed with me* or something about my music, but they articulate it in a way that gives them credibility, and I am most grateful to these comments. Again, please review my history, see how many times I said: " I agree with your comment, you are 100% right!" So if anybody has an issue here, it's YOU with me. I suggest you deal with your problem some other ways.


Guy


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

Thanks again Greg. And Nikolas, I just read your comment, glad you enjoyed it!  

I agree, it's slightly too clean.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

About the Pollini version, Pollini is my idol, but I do not like his straight boring version of this Etude, I've heard others I find much more exciting. Otherwise, let's stop recording this piece, Pollini has recorded the OFFICIAL version.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

Haven't listened to it yet Guy, but Narval, I think you'll find that your points 2 and 4 (and number 6 to Nikolas) are contradictory.


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## nikolas (Jun 8, 2010)

I hardly think they are contradictory, actually... :-/

Point 2: music is about maths.

Point 4: Music is not about communcating emotions

Point 6: Emotions come from the listener and not the music.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jun 8, 2010)

nikolas @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> I hardly think they are contradictory, actually... :-/
> 
> Point 2: music is about maths.
> 
> ...




Nikolas, that is certainly one aesthetic position to adopt (out of many)!

The issue with Narval's statements was that he was shooting himself in the foot;he fell into the trap of the intentionalist fallacy in a discussion which rules out the communication of emotion (or anything else) through music (or any other art form). And that was what was contradictory and important. 

Cheers

Stephen


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## mikebarry (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

Guy very nice performance. Wicked Wicked hard piece.

I think of all the chopin pieces the etudes are most open to interpretation. I always have listened to this etude and thought it is the brother of the Winter Wind A minor one.


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## michaelv (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

There is probably nobody else on this forum who could pull this off: is there anyone out there up to the challenge? You show guts, technical prowess and, on top of all that, you compose also. No-one likes a smart-ass, Monsieur Bacos,lol. People with a surfeit of talent are easy targets for the less able to fire their green-coloured bullets at. Oh, and you don't hide behind a silly avatar either, where any comment can be made with relative impunity.


The arguments concerning historical correctness and personal interpretation will never go away: it's inextricable, and any artist will need tough skin and be prepared to be attacked, from time to time, by those who think they know better. It comes with the territory. 

I've heard several different versions of The Rite Of Spring, for instance, and my least favourite was Stravinsky's own interpretation. It was slow, and lacked the knuckle-whitening, intensity of, say, Boulez or Bernstein. Just because you compose the piece, doesn't necessarily mean that you know what's best for it. Sometimes, it takes an interpreter to "see" the truth of a work, in way that the composer perhaps didn't conceive it. Ravel was not the greatest pianist in the world, yet his piano works are recognised by some some as the most pianistic in the canon of the instument's repertoire, in the hands of a virtuoso.

Great piano sound,too.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

Thanks Michael and Mike!

Miike, I know you're an outstanding pianist, so it's great to get this comment from you.

Interesting topic Michael. It's true that many composers are the worst performers of their own works.

I'd like to clear the air about one thing: *I have no pretense here*, I'm an ok pianist, but do NOT compare myself to any concert pianists. I just did my best to get a good performance and sound of this Etude, and not everybody has to agree with my approach, and that's fine, but I'll defend myself with such one sided comments as Narval's.


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## michaelv (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

You succeeded. I will say, however, that I'm less well informed on who is and who is not a great pianist on VI,since I've not heard many piano performances.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

So Narval, if people do enjoy listening to this performance, you would say to them:No! No! Stop enjoying this!!!!! Can't you see, Guy is shifting speeds every 2-3 bars, this is wrong!!!!!!"

I could also imagine in a fictional world Chopin enjoying this performance, and Narval interfering with Chopin's enjoyment, "STOP! STOP! Don't enjoy your own composition, that's not what you wrote!!!!"


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## Narval (Jun 8, 2010)

[deleted by poster]


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

Emm ok you are right.

Please stay away from my house.


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## synergy543 (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*



Narval @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> Fact #1 - Chopin wrote this piece in a certain way. Should he have wanted dynamics everywhere and big tempo fluctuations each 2-3 measures, he would have added them in the score, like he did in other pieces. Here, he didn't.


Narval, why are there so many different published versions of this piece, each with different dynamic and expression markings? 

Are the publishers and editors also part of the conspiracy to destroy Chopin's music? 

Or might it be (heaven forbid), that there is general consensus (as there seems to be even in this thread) to the validity of different interpretations as Nikolas and others have suggested?


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## michaelv (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*



Narval @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Tue Jun 08 said:
> 
> 
> > So if anybody has an issue here, it's YOU with me.
> ...



Quite the philosopher,aren't we? Presumably, you are not a professional musician: with all those noble and grand gestures and ideas, perhaps you could, therefore, reasonably expect some of our greatest working musicians to not accept payment for their efforts, and see their response. It's called: living in the real world; or, perhaps, if you're a Buddhist, the unreal world.

It might surprise (and, probably, repulse) you to know that one can actually earn a living out this. But,presumably, you would compell musicians to suppress their disgusting, anti-social urges for acclaim and financial reward, in the pursuit of a kind of clerical anonymity, so that the world exists in a vanilla-flavoured heaven, where no-one takes any credit or reaps any reward for anything they work hard to achieve; unless,perhaps, they are plumbers, builders,or other such skilled workers, in which case, that is to be applauded and recognised.

Bach,Haydn,Mozart, Beethoven,etc.,etc., yada,yada, all earned a living, and thrived on the qualities you eschew and denounce as unacceptable. Shame on them.


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## Narval (Jun 8, 2010)

[deleted by poster]


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> After all, it's all about feelings.



Interesting coming from somebody who seems to lack just that. Maybe try less intellectualizing when listening to music, that might help.

BTW, as you can see, not many people here seem to agree with you, so I'd cool it if I were you.


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## Narval (Jun 8, 2010)

[deleted by poster]


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## michaelv (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

---


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## michaelv (Jun 8, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> Michaelv, I am not saying or implying any of those. Your post gives me the eerie, slightly ghastly impression that you're addressing some other poster's words and ideas, which I can't see, but to which I definitely don't subscribe.
> 
> Synergy and Nikolas, you both have a point. Debatable, but valid. A good, and probably long discussion could follow, but this is hardly the place, it seems.
> 
> ...



Ummmm,really?! How extraordinary! I believed that I just cracked the English language, and there you go, confounding all my expectations of the meaning of words that I thought I knew, which now appear to have altogether different connotations on Planet Narvel. What is it with you and The Wizard of Oz, BTW?!

Bemusing talking to you... :?


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

I know it's a free forum and you could do what you want Narval, but I'd like to ask you a favor, and it's the first time in 6 years being on forums I ask this to anybody: Please don't address me anything ever again on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter.


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## Narval (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

That's an odd request, sorry, I'm not convinced it to be a very good idea. But I see your point, so please disregard all my posts in this thread (actually, I will delete them), because they all should read:

I think that was a very personal, enhanced rendition of Chopin's incompletely notated etude. Keep up the good work!


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

No, please don't delete anything, unless you doubt of what you said? I want everybody to see.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

You deleted your posts huh? Hide the evidence?


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## nikolas (Jun 8, 2010)

Ok, you two. Quit it! As a reasonable person and a mod here asking! 

Narval, you need to realise that many times your comments can be taken personally and that your quest for truth and perfection could be hurtful.

Guy, not everything should be taken personally. After all this is the Internet and there's plenty of room for rethinking, reapplying, changing ones mind or plenty of misunderstandings! 

___________________

On the issue at hand. It appears that a lot in Chopins manuscripts were not exactly clear and were even left at the ability and descretion of the editor to fill in by Chopin himself. On the other hand Beethoven seems to have been very careying for his manuscripts.

A link for your devouring: http://www.halleonard.com/common/closer ... nNotes.pdf


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*

BTW Narval, thank you for making this thread a delight! :roll:


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## Narval (Jun 8, 2010)

*Re: Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1*



Guy Bacos @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> You deleted your posts huh? Hide the evidence?


Exactly. Rejoice, you win!


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