# MIR 3D vs Berlin Studio



## Markrs (Dec 1, 2022)

I have Inspirata which I find works well on close mic’ed instruments reducing the need for other mic positions. This has mean I am not interested in a similar solution with more studios. The 2 most obvious solutions are MIR3D and Berlin Studio. The main difference of course is that with MIR you can buy many rooms not just Teldex, however getting Teldex would be one of the main reasons for getting MIR so it seems still a good comparison.

If MIR looks a good option I would consider getting the vouchers to reduce the cost. 

Does any one have more spatial reverbs and can tell me much about the differences?


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## Markrs (Dec 1, 2022)

Plus at the moment you get a free Room pack with a purchase of MIR 3D. so at current pricing you can get the Teldex studio for MIR 3D (24) for €267 (though you will have to buy €400 off vouchers to get this price) ex. VAT

Berlin Studio is currently €169 (intro price) ex. VAT. So whilst MIR is €100 more expensive the prices are still pretty close and with MIR 3D you can also by the Syncron Stage Room pack.


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## liquidlino (Dec 1, 2022)

I would wait a few days - never know what sale / release VSL have planned. Why not download the MIR trial and all the room packs as a trial in the meantime, give them a solid test drive. I tested it, its very good, well thought out software - you add a plugin to each track you want to add verb to, and then that track appears in the separate MIR application as an instrument that you then place. As well as Teldex/Synchron I particularly liked the mystical spaces, they're beautiful.


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## Markrs (Dec 1, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I would wait a few days - never know what sale / release VSL have planned. Why not download the MIR trial and all the room packs as a trial in the meantime, give them a solid test drive. I tested it, its very good, well thought out software - you add a plugin to each track you want to add verb to, and then that track appears in the separate MIR application as an instrument that you then place. As well as Teldex/Synchron I particularly liked the mystical spaces, they're beautiful.


Good plan, I did think about whether they will have a discount, but it is a new release so I imagine a repeat of the intro price is possibly what they might repeat.

I’m also not sure how long the free Room Pack deal lasts for, as that makes a big difference to the overall price.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 2, 2022)

Mirpro is amazing and can do far more than the Berlin package. However I suspect the Berlin package is easier to use and probably will be very interesting to a lot of people. Presuming the teldex stage is to their liking. The Berlin approach is more straightforward but in my view will not result in capturing the teldex room quite the way mirpro does. It will capture some classic positions in the room and then you can blend those ER’s into the mix in creative ways that will sound good and may be possible to sound bigger then the real live teldex for example, depending on how you mix the ER’s in.

With mirpro on the other hand you actually place players ANYWHERE on a virtual stage, change the direction they are facing, etc it is an actual simulation of the room using very complex ambisonic processing way way beyond a set of IR’s. Also you can get the other rooms which range from small to large and includes some churches too. 

I probably will not go for the Berlin product because I’m already all in on mirpro3d, and yea don’t forget it’s got immersive sound capabilities too! But I do happen to think this Berlin product will be quite popular with people, but I wait to hear demos.

In the past I have purchased some other IR packs which included various stage positions in a Hollywood-esque sound stage. Basically with those packs you can do the same thing as the Berlin teldex but the Berlin product is packaging it all up into a mixer gui that may make it a bit more intuitive to use. Altiverb and other products have been used this way for years. I see this as something that can use the ER’s from teldex in creative ways to create virtual soundstages that may or may not sound like you are in teldex. So there are creative options. But if you want the most realistic simulation of actually standing and listening in teldex, then I reccomend mirpro, which is still an unmatched product in the market


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## Markrs (Dec 2, 2022)

Really appreciate you comments @Dewdman42 giving me plenty to think on.


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## JeffvR (Dec 2, 2022)

I have both. I use it to blend dry recorded instruments with samples. Tbh I don’t get why you’d want to use it on sampled close mics (if other mics are already available). MIR is more flexible, and maybe better in a surround setup, Berlin Studio sounds better and warmer to my ears. BS also glues the dry signal a bit better. I posted some demos in the Berlin Studio thread. Will post more later with some recorded woodwinds and percussion. Alan Meyerson uses MIR (not the Teldex stage) with dry recorded instruments so there’s that.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 2, 2022)

I tried the trial of MIR a while ago and have to say Berlin is easier to use for me, more immediate with less fiddling. Some may like the depth of options in MIR, but for me, I want something quick that sounds good. Berlin provides that.


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## Rudianos (Dec 2, 2022)

We should do a Teldex showdown. The new Berlin - MIR3D - Altiverb - and I suppose stock Orchestral Tools Berlin back to back 3 versions each


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## Markrs (Dec 2, 2022)

JeffvR said:


> Tbh I don’t get why you’d want to use it on sampled close mics (if other mics are already available).


One reason is to reduce the memory footprint that many mic options create. You can also better place instruments into one space as well. I was looking as this as something that would give me nice flexibility of room sound without having to play around with lots of different mic levels for each articulation.

I have done this a bit with Inspirata Personal edition and I did like the sound I could get from it. But it has fewer studios to choose from than MIR3D, in particular Teldex.


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## Markrs (Dec 2, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> We should do a Teldex showdown. The new Berlin - MIR3D - Altiverb - and I suppose stock Orchestral Tools Berlin back to back 3 versions each


I like that idea. I'm sure they all do a good job, but some comparisons would be good.


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## Markrs (Dec 2, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I tried the trial of MIR a while ago and have to say Berlin is easier to use for me, more immediate with less fiddling. Some may like the depth of options in MIR, but for me, I want something quick that sounds good. Berlin provides that.


I agree with your philosophy that it is good to have things that are set up in a way to get quick, high quality results rather than lots of options.


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## José Herring (Dec 2, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Mirpro is amazing and can do far more than the Berlin package. However I suspect the Berlin package is easier to use and probably will be very interesting to a lot of people. Presuming the teldex stage is to their liking. The Berlin approach is more straightforward but in my view will not result in capturing the teldex room quite the way mirpro does. It will capture some classic positions in the room and then you can blend those ER’s into the mix in creative ways that will sound good and may be possible to sound bigger then the real live teldex for example, depending on how you mix the ER’s in.
> 
> With mirpro on the other hand you actually place players ANYWHERE on a virtual stage, change the direction they are facing, etc it is an actual simulation of the room using very complex ambisonic processing way way beyond a set of IR’s. Also you can get the other rooms which range from small to large and includes some churches too.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me asking, how does MirPro do with samples or instruments that are already recorded in a room? Does Mir work better with just bone dry close mic samples or can you use samples that already have mic positions and spaces in the recording?


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## Petrucci (Dec 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how does MirPro do with samples or instruments that are already recorded in a room? Does Mir work better with just bone dry close mic samples or can you use samples that already have mic positions and spaces in the recording?


Not only close mics can be used in MIR - for example, I tried using Close and Mid mics from Hollywood Brass and Mid mics sounded better than Close ones. Also the signals should be centered before entering MIR.


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## Ben (Dec 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how does MirPro do with samples or instruments that are already recorded in a room? Does Mir work better with just bone dry close mic samples or can you use samples that already have mic positions and spaces in the recording?


Check out the videos I posted here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...free-30-days-demo.127434/page-16#post-5232669

MIR works best with dry/dry-ish signals. If you handle individual instruments the signal also should be centered. For ensembles/ room mics you should increase the width of the icon and carefully place the signal where it sounds best. There is an example in the mentioned videos.


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## Dietz (Dec 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Does Mir work better with just bone dry close mic samples or can you use samples that already have mic positions and spaces in the recording?


As a mixing engineer I typically use MIR on recorded instruments, quite often on stuff captured during live concerts, so there's always a bit of room and/or bleed. MIR will work on that gracefully. 

A recent example for a commercial release I mixed that way is Two Steps From Hell's brand-new life-album from their current tour with band, orchestra and choir:



... also in 3D on selected platforms, especially if the Spotify-link above doesn't work.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 3, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I tried the trial of MIR a while ago and have to say Berlin is easier to use for me, more immediate with less fiddling. Some may like the depth of options in MIR, but for me, I want something quick that sounds good. Berlin provides that.


Yea my view is that the Berlin product basically can take a dry or nearly dry product and make it function in a manner similar to other wet libraries...where you have the various mics of the room that you adjust to sound how you like. For example, Hollywood Orch, etc. these libraries have the actual instrument sound recorded in the close mics and the other mics. Synchron libraries too are this way. And people are used to working that way, they just adjust the level of the various mics until it sounds good. Its orders of magnitude less flexible then MirPro with dry samples...but this is a very common approach now and many people prefer those kinds of libraries for their ease of use.

Berlin Teldex simply provides IR's for those other mics, so that you can kind of mimic the same kind of wet-library mixing scenario with any dry (or mostly dry) library.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how does MirPro do with samples or instruments that are already recorded in a room? Does Mir work better with just bone dry close mic samples or can you use samples that already have mic positions and spaces in the recording?


I agree with the comments from Ben and Dietz on this point... In my view, whatever mud you might create with wet libraries and MirPro, you would create the same kind of mud using this new Berlin product. MirPro is actually probably much more flexible to finesse that kind of situation, but let's see how people put the Berlin product to use.

But that is not to say that its not possible to effectively use some semi-wet close mic samples with either product.


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## sound team apk (Dec 3, 2022)

I have both -- and am glad to have both, but I'm both obsessed with psychoacoustics and have two somewhat separate use cases. I recommend them both wholeheartedly, depending on what you want to do with them.

Here's a pretty detailed take of how I view the differences:

I haven't had a chance to do a major project with Berlin Studio yet, but as far as I can tell, it is really as good as everyone says for orchestral mockups.
Especially if you like Teldex and use OT (or Synchron -- very blendable rooms), this might be everything you need without much tweaking.
I expect I'll turn to this first for blending my several drier sample libraries with non-dry sample libraries for mockups. As others have mentioned, the setup is pretty streamlined for that and you just have mic positions similar to what we get in other libraries right there for you.
Between adjusting the tail length and maybe adding a bit more tail with another (simple) reverb, it probably covers most blending purposes for an orchestral mockup pretty well.

However, Mir Pro 3D is also really as good as everyone says, and it's another one of my best-ever plugin purchases.
I place live recorded instruments and sometimes blend them with my samples. In particular, what MIR does with my real piano in its boxy room is nothing short of magical. *And even I can barely tell that there's reverb applied*_._ Nothing I've tried with any of my other plugins sounds this good (by quite a long margin). MIR has been well worth the expense purely for recording my piano.
I expect I will continue to use MIR for smaller ensembles -- for flexibility, but also because I prefer different rooms for that. For my piano in particular, Teldex fared far worse in blind comparisons (with myself and my friends) than multiple other MIR rooms, especially Schubertsaal.
@Dietz: Due to the previous two bullets, MIR 3D Schubertsaal is unquestionably the single most transformative piece of music technology I have yet experienced. Thank you.

For blending my piano with an orchestral mockup, I'll use MIR on the real piano and Berlin Studio for the virtual orchestra.


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## José Herring (Dec 3, 2022)

Dietz said:


> As a mixing engineer I typically use MIR on recorded instruments, quite often on stuff captured during live concerts, so there's always a bit of room and/or bleed. MIR will work on that gracefully.
> 
> A recent example for a commercial release I mixed that way is Two Steps From Hell's brand-new life-album from their current tour with band, orchestra and choir:
> 
> ...



The sense of space is really incredible. I do have a bit of an issue with the high end though. Seems rather piercing but I'm sure that was probably a spotify mastering decision more than anything. 
But, the width of the recordings is very good. 
Thank you.


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## Dietz (Dec 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> The sense of space is really incredible. I do have a bit of an issue with the high end though. Seems rather piercing but I'm sure that was probably a spotify mastering decision more than anything.
> But, the width of the recordings is very good.
> Thank you.


Thanks. In most of the tracks there were lots elements that all desired to be knit together, both real and virtual - something that could contribute to a slightly hyped, 'excited' sonic signature overall. The most "natural" piece is definitely "Wings for Ukraine", which is perhaps also the smoothest sounding one, therefore:



(MIR 3D used for more or less all elements.  ... as well as all kinds of additional tools for mixing, of course.)


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## Dietz (Dec 3, 2022)

sound team apk said:


> @Dietz: Due to the previous two bullets, MIR 3D Schubertsaal is unquestionably the single most transformative piece of music technology I have yet experienced. Thank you.


:-D You're very welcome. Glad to hear you like this (often overlooked) little acoustic gem!


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Markrs said:


> Does any one have more spatial reverbs and can tell me much about the differences?



I only have Berlin Studio (but I've demoed the normal MIR a while ago), so I will only give my view on that one:

First of all, I think that listening to an orchestra in a good concert hall in a good positioned seat is among the greatest experiences one can have. However, over the years I found out that I'm not so fond listening to an orchestra that was recorded from that position.
(I made this experience on several occasions where my music was performed and I did a "safety" recording from my seat and later compared it to the recordings that the broadcast company did)

The live experience consists of uncounted details that can't be captured by a recording. Also: the brain interacts with the room one is in. If filters out muddiness after some minutes once it gets aware of the spatial dimensions of the room. And by looking at an instrument it can alter the dynamic of that instrument by appr. 4 dB. - the latter is e.g. often an important thing in the case of violin concertos.
And the results of conventional convolution reverbs usually reminds me of these flaws of a live situation that isn't live any longer.

So I have to say that when I listen to recordings of orchestras I really love the aesthetic concept that has been established during the past decades. It doesn't capture the real constellation, but it enhances details in a way that isn't perfectly natural, but compensates the lack of the live experience.

And that's where Berlin Studio does exactly what I was always looking for. You can mix your direct signal (which I tend to love) with a Decca, an AB-constellation and a surround (which I also love).
The workflow is convenient and the sound extremely amzing and inspiring.


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## Markrs (Dec 4, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> I only have Berlin Studio (but I've demoed the normal MIR a while ago), so I will only give my view on that one:
> 
> First of all, I think that listening to an orchestra in a good concert hall in a good positioned seat is among the greatest experiences one can have. However, over the years I found out that I'm not so fond listening to an orchestra that was recorded from that position.
> (I made this experience on several occasions where my music was performed and I did a "safety" recording from my seat and later compared it to the recordings that the broadcast company did)
> ...


Thank you, that was really useful description at how we perceive live music versus recorded and how you work with Berlin Studio.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 4, 2022)

sound team apk said:


> MIR 3D Schubertsaal is unquestionably the single most transformative piece of music technology I have yet experienced. Thank you.



Agreed! It's the room I use the most, especially for small ensembles. It really, really shines for string quartet/quintet.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 4, 2022)

If we’re just talking MIR Teldex versus Samplicity Teldex, the differences as I have observed are thus:
Dry signal: MIR impacts this in addition to the wet signal, whereas BS does not (panning is coming though)
BS positions are pre-defined, MIR gives full control of positioning and direction in three dimensions
BS gives you individual mic level EQ controls, MIR gives you dry signal EQ and wet signal EQ
BS gives you tree, AB and surround mics, while MIR is more free form in configuration and placement, but only provides two wet signals unless you get creative with routing and setup in MIR
BS lives in the DAW completely and MIR routes to and from an external application separate from the DAW
MIR offers more venues, many of which are very good, beyond Teldex

Overall, both are excellent options. BS can get you to placing something in MIR faster by virtue of having fewer controls, but the extra control of MIR can sometimes be preferable.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

one clarification...




Trash Panda said:


> BS lives in the DAW completely and MIR routes to and from an external application separate from the DAW



The external MirPro application is only used to _configure_ things, all DSP processing occurs inside the actual plugin in your DAW. The audio is not actually routed through the external app.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> I only have Berlin Studio (but I've demoed the normal MIR a while ago), so I will only give my view on that one:
> 
> First of all, I think that listening to an orchestra in a good concert hall in a good positioned seat is among the greatest experiences one can have. However, over the years I found out that I'm not so fond listening to an orchestra that was recorded from that position.
> (I made this experience on several occasions where my music was performed and I did a "safety" recording from my seat and later compared it to the recordings that the broadcast company did)
> ...



This is an excellent observation... "recorded sound" is something we have become accustomed to.

But really I think this "recorded sound" is possible with either product and also with neither of them. Its simply a matter of engineering it. Sometimes we get a little into the weeds with discussions about "stage positioning", etc, but really there is no rule that says we need to position our orchestral instruments in a room such as teldex with a traditional orchestral stage layout. We can position players anywhere such that the recorded sound, sounds great! One nice thing about Mir is that you can move the players anywhere and have them facing any direction too. And let's not forget it also provides width controls for each track in addition to position and direction. And you can move the two mic arrays around all over the venue, as close or far away as you want, to the left or the right, off axis, or whatever you want. And on top of that you can play around with different mic array configurations as well! All of that is possible because MirPro is not a simple set of static IR's, its a much more complex engine of ambisonic processing. MirPro is really the inevitable conclusion of smart engineers trying to figure out the best way to simulate rooms in a flexible manner, VSL is way ahead of everyone in this regard.

The frustrating part is that many people find MirPro difficult to deliver the sound they want. They dive down the rabbit hole of all that flexibility and it turns out that with many options, its not always straight forward to get the sound you want. With a more limited product such as BS, well it delivers one basic kind of sound...in a relatively easy manner.. As long as that is the sound you are hunting for...then I like "relatively easy manner". But if you want more flexibility, there is simply nothing that compares to MirPro..especially if you are interested in really playing around with stage positioning.

for "recorded sound", I sometimes question about the stage positioning approach in general. That is what people have to do with real players in real recording sessions, so it is mimicking that approach of orch recording, but when it comes to sample libraries and DAW's...well...we aren't using real players on a stage. There are no rules that say any particular stage positioning is "correct" or authentic per say..unless you're trying to recreate a concert setting of course. and really I think BOTH of these products, BS and MirPro...are more about recreating a real-player scenario...which is fascinating and MirPro provides all the flexibility to really get just about any sound you want out of it, providing you put the time in to engineer it....but what I'm trying to say is that...I think a recorded sound may sometimes be easier and more straightforward to get just by using some simple IR plugins with ER's and tails and basically create that recorded sound you want...with no reflection of reality whatsoever..other then just a cool recorded sound. Sometimes I feel that these products that focus on replicating real players on a real stage...end up just creating more complexity and getting in the way.

But I think most people are just trying to find an _easy_ way to get "that sound" without having to engineer it or think about it so hard. That is why wet libraries such as Synchron, EWHO, BBCSO, etc have become so popular IMHO. They are by design less flexible, but more immediate. I see BS as being along the same lines, to accommodate dry libraries quickly and easily... Its not as flexible as MirPro. And yet its also a bit more involved perhaps then simply using some IR's to make your recording sound "cinematic". I mean if you are after a traditional sounding arrangement of players on a stage...and you want to hear that stage positioning, the depth...with the horns, in back, etc.. then BS is an easy way to get one particular sound... And MirPro can get that same sound....along with 1000 other sounds....but its more involved....

So pick you poison really...

I purchased those Numerical Sound IR's a while back...and they do absolutely NOTHING to attempt to create any authentic stage positioning, but using them as designed produces some excellent recorded sound with the focus more on clarity of instruments, spaciousness, etc...rather then attempting to replicate an authentic stage.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

I also would like to point out an excellent resource provided by @Beat Kaufmann found here:






Orchestra Music with Samples, Tutorials and Presets for VSL
 

How to mix an orchestra? A Tutorial which describs every single step and with all the important files included (Adio Tracks).




www.beat-kaufmann.com





He has made these dry orchestral recordings free available for educational purposes, which can be used to try out different mixing approaches. Perhaps we could get some people to use some of these to make comparisons between say BS and MirPro Teldex...and or other approaches as well... with a common set of recorded tracks to start with, we can hear the results and all learn something along the way.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I purchased those Numerical Sound IR's a while back...and they do absolutely NOTHING to attempt to create any authentic stage positioning,


Just to be clear: with Berlin Studio you _can_ easily achieve a completely convincing stage positioning (that also sounds stellar), but you also can go for a more refined sound that resembles more modern recordings.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

and you can do that with MirPro too!


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> and you can do that with MirPro too!


well, if you like the sound... I didn't


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

My point about the Numerical Sound IR's was simply that their focus was not at all focused on stage positioning. it uses highly engineered IR's that have captivating ER patterns, and certain ER patterns make certain kinds of instruments sound more clear then others, etc..its more about engineering a sound without any regard for stage positioning or of trying to simulate a particular room...which is yet another completely valid approach


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> well, if you like the sound... I didn't


You didn't like what YOU engineered with it. To be clear. It is not accurate to say that MirPro has some particular sound. It is a highly flexible product capable of great sound and lousy sound and everything in between.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> You didn't like what YOU engineered with it. To be clear. It is not accurate to say that MirPro has some particular sound. It is a highly flexible product capable of great sound and lousy sound and everything in between.


To be more precise: what I've heard with it so far. (And that's a lot)


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

well anyway like I said, let's hear some comparisons using the same source tracks.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> well anyway like I said, let's hear some comparisons using the same source tracks.


I guess for those who are interested in both, it's best to wait until there is a demo version of Berlin and then explore both options. As you stated, both have a learning curve, so listening to what others have done will always be dependent on their subjective use of them.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> My point about the Numerical Sound IR's was simply that their focus was not at all focused on stage positioning. it uses highly engineered IR's that have captivating ER patterns, and certain ER patterns make certain kinds of instruments sound more clear then others, etc..its more about engineering a sound without any regard for stage positioning or of trying to simulate a particular room...which is yet another completely valid approach


When LASS was new (around something over ten years ago), it came with a bunch of IRs from Numerical Sound (ERs and tails). I still think they were pretty great and I also liked them on other sources (like the VSL woodwinds). But yes, it was rather about the sound than about "real" positioning.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

Numerical Sound actually highly engineered their IR's, they are not merely captures. They were partially captured perhaps and partially put together mathematically, etc.. They are literally designer IR's...with a focus on getting that classic Hollywood sound reminiscent of Abbey Roads and other locales, without actually being captured from there. There is absolutely no L/R information and the IR's are organized more by ER time length then by stage depth. I'm not saying you couldn't achieve depth with them also, you absolutely can. Actually you can m make things sound further up and back using exactly the same ER's and the way you mix them in...there is really not that much need for separately captured IR's. But anyway NumericalSound's IR's are more focused on the length of the ER's...and the brightness and things like that. You can achieve a 3Dness to them, but they were engineered more for getting a big Hollywood sound..not for realistically simulating a space.

I haven't done a ton with mine yet, its something I have been wanting to spend more time with. He also included Reverberate presets to make use of modulation features in Reverberate...and basically the kit is pretty well thought out for this kind of scenario.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> so listening to what others have done will always be dependent on their subjective use of them.



of course! But its still better then just hearing someone's_ subjective explanation_ of them.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Numerical Sound actually highly engineered their IR's, they are not merely captures. They were partially captured perhaps and partially put together mathematically, etc.. They are literally designer IR's...with a focus on getting that classic Hollywood sound reminiscent of Abbey Roads and other locales, without actually being captured from there.


IIRC the founder of Numerical Sound, Mr. Cholakis was active on this forum a while ago. He also did a ton of research in the area of groove. (he wrote an article in the late 80ies about groove and timing which really impressed me at that time)

When I used those (LASS-) IRs, I experimented quite a bit with small delays that I applied to the respective busses that carried either the ERs or the tails in order to get the spatial information this way.


BTW & half OT: if it's merely about positioning there are great algorithmic solutions - re-peat sometimes posts extremely impressive examples that use SPAT.

(edit: SPAT, not SPAN)


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2022)

definitely there are lots of algorithmic solutions too! But I confess I don't have the skills to make an algorithmic solution work for me for this use case. Particularly the ER parts...one of these days maybe I will stumble on something that works and make sure to save the preset! hehe. If I get a lot more into it and study the math so to speak I might be able to become more intelligent about it...but generally speaking....for now...I'd rather be thinking about music then engineering ER patterns, so I definitely prefer to ride on the backs of products that already deliver at this part of it without having to think about it too hard about it. 

I still want easy as possible to engineer. It comes down to if there is an easy solution to getting close to the sound I want. For realistic spaces...I would say BS gives you one space very easily. MirPro gives you a bunch of spaces, not quite as easily. If you don't care about simulating a particular space, then you try to find some other way to get "the sound" but for me it still needs to be easy or else I just won't want to spend the time on it. But there are lots of people out there using Breeze and any number of other algorithmic products to achieve excellent results no doubt. Just waiting any minute for the Cinematic Rooms cult to chime in.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 4, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> BTW & half OT: if it's merely about positioning there are great algorithmic solutions - re-peat sometimes posts extremely impressive examples that use SPAN.


You mean SPAT right?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2022)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> You mean SPAT right?


Yeah, thanks, I've corrected it in my post.


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## MaroonedMind (Dec 5, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Agreed! It's the room I use the most, especially for small ensembles. It really, really shines for string quartet/quintet.


+1! I made a blind test between all the halls in roompack 1 and 2 with a VI string quartet, and Schubertsaal was also my favourite. Also made the same test with harps with same result. I thought Teldex in generel sounded a bit too thin, but have since experimented with various settings + layered a Bricasti M7 (Hall of Fame 3) on top for smoothing it out, which in the end renders an entire different and oldschool sound which I also love. Also the directionality of placed instruments in Teldex is one of the best.


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## MaroonedMind (Dec 5, 2022)

Furthermore I realized after making all the tests that the renditions of the spaces can sound quite different on speakers compared to headphones. After being really happy about Schubertsaal on headphones (AKG K702 w. Sonarworks) and hence only wanting to buy Roompack 1, I listened to it again on my Genelec speakers, and could instantly hear the space in a new way revealing it's more grand/theatrical nature (not bad), compared to to the sound of Teldex scoringstage which has somekind of early reflection that makes it more humble. That's why I insisted on Teldex also.


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 5, 2022)

Comparisons with MIR 3D and BS using VSL dry strings (Dimension strings please!) would be great...


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## richhickey (Dec 14, 2022)

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Comparisons with MIR 3D and BS using VSL dry strings (Dimension strings please!) would be great...


Note - Positioning done in MIR for all. Dry Solo used for non-MIR verbs and bussed out per section, then each treated separately. _No extra EQ_, which I would definitely do for the non-MIR sends to reduce mic proximity (which MIR is doing). But we all know what you can do with EQ so I've kept them all raw.

Dimension Strings, dry
View attachment PsychoDSDry.mp3


Altiverb Teldex - 7M
View attachment PsychoDSAltiverbTeldex.mp3


Berlin Studio - Source -0, Tree -7, Surround -20
View attachment PsychoDSBerlinStudio.mp3


MIR Teldex - ORTF+Center, Center mic position, Scoring mode, 50/50 wet/dry
View attachment PsychoDSMIRTeldex.mp3


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## Markrs (Dec 14, 2022)

richhickey said:


> Note - Positioning done in MIR for all. Dry Solo used for non-MIR verbs and bussed out per section, then each treated separately. _No extra EQ_, which I would definitely do for the non-MIR sends to reduce mic proximity (which MIR is doing). But we all know what you can do with EQ so I've kept them all raw.
> 
> Dimension Strings, dry
> View attachment PsychoDSDry.mp3
> ...


Thank you for doing this comparison, very useful. You can here differences but they are not large to me. I slightly prefer MIR, but I would be very happy to Berlin Studio reverb as well.


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## Montisquirrel (Dec 15, 2022)

richhickey said:


> Note - Positioning done in MIR for all. Dry Solo used for non-MIR verbs and bussed out per section, then each treated separately. _No extra EQ_, which I would definitely do for the non-MIR sends to reduce mic proximity (which MIR is doing). But we all know what you can do with EQ so I've kept them all raw.
> 
> Dimension Strings, dry
> View attachment PsychoDSDry.mp3
> ...


Thank you for posting this examples.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 15, 2022)

richhickey said:


> Note - Positioning done in MIR for all.


With Berlin Studio, you should skip the positioning in MIR. 
If needed, I'd take a simple direction mixer (like S1) to give an inital direction (and attenuate the width of the dry samples if needed).
Also, I'd make use of the AB-mics. And I'd adjust the Surround Mics at a higher level.
The features of Berlin are here to be used...


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 15, 2022)

richhickey said:


> Note - Positioning done in MIR for all. Dry Solo used for non-MIR verbs and bussed out per section, then each treated separately. _No extra EQ_, which I would definitely do for the non-MIR sends to reduce mic proximity (which MIR is doing). But we all know what you can do with EQ so I've kept them all raw.
> 
> Dimension Strings, dry
> View attachment PsychoDSDry.mp3
> ...


Thank you so much Rich!


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## richhickey (Dec 15, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> With Berlin Studio, you should skip the positioning in MIR.
> If needed, I'd take a simple direction mixer (like S1) to give an inital direction (and attenuate the width of the dry samples if needed).
> Also, I'd make use of the AB-mics. And I'd adjust the Surround Mics at a higher level.
> The features of Berlin are here to be used...


MIR is only doing panning in this mode (not distance emulation etc), so no different from other means. This was a preexisting project and I didn't feel like rereouting and repanning the 32 Dimension String signals.

I'm sure I haven't fully leveraged Berlin Studio, having purchased it 15 minutes before I made these. Also, I don't see any docs (!?)

All these tools have many features, true, but, as a piano has many keys, which to use is a subjective decision depending on one's goals. Nevertheless, to be fairer to Berlin Studio, I took MIR out of the loop and hand-panned (made no difference), then spent some more time balancing the mic signals to get closer to the amount of space of the MIR track. Still with no EQ. And now I think the MIR effect is evident - something about the distance modeling they do on the signals tends to hollow them out (IMO). Superficially it sounds nice, then the uncanny valley creeps in.

Here's my latest with Berlin Studio:
View attachment PsychoDSBerlinStudioRedux.mp3


MIR again here to make A/Bing easier:
View attachment PsychoDSMIRTeldex.mp3


And, since there are as many approaches to spatialization as there are people, here are https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ur7EXsWxU2cohQcApaJHSwS4EvHVc2ZK (the stems) for those who want to play at home.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 15, 2022)

richhickey said:


> I'm sure I haven't fully leveraged Berlin Studio, having purchased it 15 minutes before I made these.


Your updated Berlin file sounds much better imho...
In my experience it works really well with the old VSL samples (I'm still using the woodwinds a lot).
BTW it also helps to put a little delay on the direct signal in order to get a more coherent sound (iirc it's about 18ms for the woodwinds position).


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## richhickey (Dec 15, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> Your updated Berlin file sounds much better imho...
> In my experience it works really well with the old VSL samples (I'm still using the woodwinds a lot).
> BTW it also helps to put a little delay on the direct signal in order to get a more coherent sound (iirc it's about 18ms for the woodwinds position).


I did that


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## Dietz (Dec 15, 2022)

richhickey said:


> something about the distance modeling they do on the signals tends to hollow them out (IMO)


There is no "modelling" other than pure Ambisonics panning as soon as you switch off the features that apply Air Absorption and/or Directivity Filtering to the dry signal. Match the levels carefully and check yourself. 

I also strongly suggest to use one of the Output Formats that make use of the new possibilities of HOA instead of the "old" 1st-order pseudo-ORTF (which is a quite narrow setup anyway).

Finally, it might be worth trying Secondary Microphones that increase the spatial enveloping.

Kind regards,


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 15, 2022)

Dietz said:


> There is no "modelling" other than pure Ambisonics panning as soon as you switch off the features that apply Air Absorption and/or Directivity Filtering to the dry signal. Match the levels carefully and check yourself.
> 
> I also strongly suggest to use one of the Output Formats that make use of the new possibilities of HOA instead of the "old" 1st-order pseudo-ORTF (which is a quite narrow setup anyway).
> 
> ...


Dietz,
could you share the best practice for that example, using dimension strings (besides going for the HOA mics)? Are you suggesting as well to turn off Air Absorption and Directivity Filter or have I got it wrong?


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## richhickey (Dec 15, 2022)

Dietz said:


> There is no "modelling" other than pure Ambisonics panning as soon as you switch off the features that apply Air Absorption and/or Directivity Filtering to the dry signal. Match the levels carefully and check yourself.
> 
> I also strongly suggest to use one of the Output Formats that make use of the new possibilities of HOA instead of the "old" 1st-order pseudo-ORTF (which is a quite narrow setup anyway).
> 
> ...


Yes, I have used MIR quite a lot and know about the air and directivity, and usually turn them off. But they are certainly part of the MIR design and value proposition. The intention was to show what you can get with mostly similar defaults. As you know, separated mics a la decca trees are not MIR's main premise. Nevertheless
it sounded quite excellent, I am making a small gripe only. 

Between the two products there are tens of thousands of settings combinations. No demo can truly explore them. I've posted the stems for anyone else who wants to spend some more time.


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## richhickey (Dec 15, 2022)

So it turns out directivity and air were already off in the MIR mix  What I heard must have just been the ORTF emulation, which I don't often use. Again, to be fair to its defender, I've done one more pass with MIR, taking @Dietz 's suggestion - this is the MIR 3D HOA DnMix plus the secondary stereo array (at -6db), without which I found there was not very much sense of width at all. But the result is interesting:

View attachment PsychoDSMIR3DDnMixAndSecondary.mp3


And now I really am done Please use the stems to experiment on your own and post your results here.


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## Petrucci (Dec 15, 2022)

richhickey said:


> So it turns out directivity and air were already off in the MIR mix  What I heard must have just been the ORTF emulation, which I don't often use. Again, to be fair to its defender, I've done one more pass with MIR, taking @Dietz 's suggestion - this is the MIR 3D HOA DnMix plus the secondary stereo array (at -6db), without which I found there was not very much sense of width at all. But the result is interesting:
> 
> View attachment PsychoDSMIR3DDnMixAndSecondary.mp3
> 
> ...


Listening from the phone - I like this one the most!)


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 15, 2022)

Petrucci said:


> Listening from the phone - I like this one the most!)


Me too!


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## Dietz (Dec 15, 2022)

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Dietz,
> could you share the best practice for that example, using dimension strings (besides going for the HOA mics)?


There are complete Venue Presets for more than half a dozen Venues, with so-called "Roles" for each individual Dimension instrument as well as the respective ensembles as a whole. (However, I suggest to replace the legacy "MIRx"-type 1st-Order Output Setup for the Main Microphone with one that uses the possibilities of HOA, e.g. "Stereo - MIR 3D HOA Downmix" from 7.1.2).



Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Are you suggesting as well to turn off Air Absorption and Directivity Filter or have I got it wrong?


Yes, leaving these two parameters "off" can be considered the typical use case. Especially using the Directivity Filter for the dry signal is comparable to turning an instrument away from an otherwise perfectly positioned spot microphone. (... of course, the directivity filter will always be "on" for the sound radiation of the source into the room, unless you assign an "omni" shaped "General Purpose" Instrument Profile). - Air Absorption simply rolls off the upper frequencies depending on the distance between the source and the Main Microphone. This can sometimes help to differentiate between similar-sounding instruments, but it's by no means a must; you wouldn't do this with spot mics from a real recording in most cases either.


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## daviddln (Dec 16, 2022)

Dietz,
When I connect my DAW to MIR Pro 3D, the secondary microphone is set to the "Stereo - MIR 3D HOA DnMx" format by default. But why does this format not appear in the Edit Output Format Window for Secondary Microphone when I open it? It only appears in the Edit Open Window for Main Microphone.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 29, 2022)

Although right now scrolling is necessary to compare the 2 best examples in the previous page, I AB'd them. Browser tabs help.

First of all, the sound of VSL strings ALWAYS strikes me as too bright; most real recorded strings I hear in the wild are darker. The same thing happens here; the MIR example sounds brighter than the BS example. And Psycho wants the darker strings. Maybe an EQ would remove this difference entirely.

The stereo field is wider in the MIR example, but BS is deeper in the other axis and there seems to be more happening in terms of reverberation.

The sforzati in the music sound gorgeous in the BS example and sound generally attenuated in the MIR example. It's as if the musicians gave a worse performance inside MIR.

Not relevant, but please let me get this off my chest: That the MIDI performance here is horrible, no attention was paid to legato or detaché. I believe I have seen this MIDI file before, decades ago on the web, so this is not the fault of the kind soul who uploaded these tests.

Now MIR deserves another try, because as things stand right now, I prefer BS. And MIR has every right to win this contest in the end.


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## Nashi_VI (Dec 29, 2022)

I am giving a go at MIR Pro 3d with the trial license, so far, the major difference in results from libraries with with BS, OT libraries and libraries with Mir Pro and Teldex, is that the presets in MIR don't match the typical position/seating of the intruments that the OT libraries and BS's IRs captured, and trying to replicate them with MIR is much harder than just plopping the samples in BS and adjusting the mic levels.


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## Dietz (Dec 29, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> the presets in MIR don't match the typical position/seating of the instruments that the OT libraries


Of course not. There is not one single "typical" seating scheme. When we recorded Teldex Studio for MIR Pro back in 2010 or 2011, the senior staff provided us with the following "typical" setup: 







... but then, there are many occasions where it's preferable to have the 2nd Violins on the right, opposing the 1st, and the basses closer to the center axis, which led me to the following suggestion for MIRx (now included as "Vienna Standard" in the factory settings of MIR 3D): 







(... scroll down this page for the other instrument families.) Should be not too hard to take it from there, if you like or need other setups.

I for one prefer the "landscape" orientation for modern scoring anyway. The "portrait" setups shown above tend to be a bit narrow, especially in stereo - hence the inclusion of the so called "wide" version in MIR: 






(... the yellow-ish overlay depicts the "allowed" area for signal sources.)

HTH!


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## Dietz (Dec 29, 2022)

daviddln said:


> Dietz,
> When I connect my DAW to MIR Pro 3D, the secondary microphone is set to the "Stereo - MIR 3D HOA DnMx" format by default. But why does this format not appear in the Edit Output Format Window for Secondary Microphone when I open it? It only appears in the Edit Open Window for Main Microphone.


Hmmm .... are you sure that the Secondary Mic shows this format? Usually the Secondary Mic serve very special purposes in MIR Pro, hence its specific Output Formats.


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## ChickenAndARoll (Dec 29, 2022)

Hey Dietz, 

For rooms that don't have Vienna Standard presets, do we need to handle EQing to correctly affect the depth of an instrument, or is MIR doing that automatically when we move the icon around? For example, if I'm using Recording Studio Weiler and put an instance of MIR on a dry trumpet, piano, and saxophone, do we need to tailor the EQ settings manually to make it sound accurate? I'm paranoid that I'm not doing enough work here since I literally will just drag the icon and adjust the width until it sounds good 😂

I guess a better way to ask this would be: What exactly do the Vienna Standard Presets do? Is it just giving you an idealistic location of where a particular instrument normally goes within the room?


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## Nashi_VI (Dec 30, 2022)

Dietz said:


> Of course not. There is not one single "typical" seating scheme. When we recorded Teldex Studio for MIR Pro back in 2010 or 2011, the senior staff provided us with the following "typical" setup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, i am using the VSL site to help me better understand MIR, since, when i decided to try it out, that since the site always has so much documentation about pretty much anything (from the VSL VI to orchestration) i figured it would have a lot of stuff about Mir as well (i also looked, and i am stil looking at various videos on the vsl channel to learn even more).
I was just commenting on the fact that trying to match the sound you would get with Orchestral Tools's libraries and with libraries passed throught Berlin Studio, with libraries passed throught Mir Pro with Teldex can be decieving, since Orchestral Tools usually has similar seating positioning for most of their libraries (the Arks and the Times are some of the exceptions because of the different sizes of the sections recorded), and the people at Samplicity claim to have the same set up of mic that Orchestral Tools use for their recordings, so the instruments match their sound and positioning very well, also i do agree that Teldex sound very good in "landscape", but, once again, i have never seen Orchestral Tools record that way. (maybe they did with some library i am not sure)
So, all in all, my post was just about the side by side comparison, not the quality of the sound or the plugins themselves.


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 30, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> Yeah, i am using the VSL site to help me better understand MIR, since, when i decided to try it out, that since the site always has so much documentation about pretty much anything (from the VSL VI to orchestration) i figured it would have a lot of stuff about Mir as well (i also looked, and i am stil looking at various videos on the vsl channel to learn even more).
> I was just commenting on the fact that trying to match the sound you would get with Orchestral Tools's libraries and with libraries passed throught Berlin Studio, with libraries passed throught Mir Pro with Teldex can be decieving, since Orchestral Tools usually has similar seating positioning for most of their libraries (the Arks and the Times are some of the exceptions because of the different sizes of the sections recorded), and the people at Samplicity claim to have the same set up of mic that Orchestral Tools use for their recordings, so the instruments match their sound and positioning very well, also i do agree that Teldex sound very good in "landscape", but, once again, i have never seen Orchestral Tools record that way. (maybe they did with some library i am not sure)
> So, all in all, my post was just about the side by side comparison, not the quality of the sound or the plugins themselves.


Hi Nashi,
are you planning to provide a fair comparison between MIR 3D and BS?
Curious about your findings so far.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Hi Nashi,
> are you planning to provide a fair comparison between MIR 3D and BS?
> Curious about your findings so far.


I for one, think this is a very difficult comparison to make because MirPro is so entirely configurable and flexible, BS pretty straightforward, it is what it is, but with MirPro being so flexible...how would expect to objectively compare them? You can most likely be making apples to oranges comparisons very easily regardless of the fact that you use Teldex room in both cases. From what I have heard, they can both sound great in the hands of the right user.


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## Nashi_VI (Dec 30, 2022)

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Hi Nashi,
> are you planning to provide a fair comparison between MIR 3D and BS?
> Curious about your findings so far.


yeah, as @Dewdman42 said, and what i was also implying with my posts, was that comparisons are pretty hard to make, one would be very good at MIR PRO (i am not) to be able to, first of all get the instruments in the right positions as they were recorded in BS (or in the Berlin Series for example), then there is the issue of the mic positions, i think that the "easiest" way would be to just compare the Decca Tree and nothing else, but with MIR you can for sure "fake" or replicate the other mic positions with how much control you get with the plugin, however, it would require a lot of guess work, a lot of tweaking and knowledge of MIR istelf and also a very good pair of ears, to even try to accomplish that.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 30, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> i think that the "easiest" way would be to just compare the Decca Tree and nothing else


lol, the point of Berlin Studio is exactly that it's _not_ just the Decca Tree, so why would one make a comparison that leaves out the core of the concept of the plugin in question?  

I think for those who really want to decide between one or the other it's the best thing to wait until Berlin has a demo available and then decide for themselves.


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## Nashi_VI (Dec 30, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> the point of Berlin Studio is exactly that it's _not_ just the Decca Tree, so why would one make a comparison that leaves out the core of the concept of the plugin in question?


That is exaclty the point i was trying to make with all of my messages.......... to make the comparison "fair" it would either take a lot of time, effort and expertise, or it would be "just" a lower effort one with only the Decca Tree (and, as i said in my various posts about it, even that would take a lot of time and guess works sice you would need to emulate the actual seating positions of the BS/OT recordings).


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I for one, think this is a very difficult comparison to make because MirPro is so entirely configurable and flexible, BS pretty straightforward, it is what it is, but with MirPro being so flexible...how would expect to objectively compare them? You can most likely be making apples to oranges comparisons very easily regardless of the fact that you use Teldex room in both cases. From what I have heard, they can both sound great in the hands of the right user.


Sorry for the misleading. Maybe the comparison term isn't appropriate, especially if you take it literally. 
What I was proposing based on the Psycho mockup "comparison" isn't an orange vs apple thing. For me, it does not matter the technicality at all. My concern is only with which one I can get the best results. As Nando pointed out, about the Psycho mockup, with MIR it seems you get a better stereo field image, with BS more depth, and more "energy". From that, any MIR 3D user could propose objective directions to add depth and energy to the mockup without losing the stereo field image?


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> For me, it does not matter the technicality at all. My concern is only with which one I can get the best results.



define "best results"



Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> As Nando pointed out, about the Psycho mockup, with MIR it seems you get a better stereo field image, with BS more depth, and more "energy". From that, any MIR 3D user could propose objective directions to add depth and energy to the mockup without losing the stereo field image?


I disagree with such a categorical statement that BS has more depth or more energy. Based on what? MirPro is very configurable and flexible. That user was apparantly not able to get as as much depth and energy as BS; according to them. it is not objectively honest to categorically say that MirPro has less depth or energy then BS.


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## richhickey (Dec 30, 2022)

Nando Florestan said:


> Not relevant, but please let me get this off my chest: That the MIDI performance here is horrible, no attention was paid to legato or detaché. I believe I have seen this MIDI file before, decades ago on the web, so this is not the fault of the kind soul who uploaded these tests.


You certainly haven't seen it decades ago. I made it myself recently, and extensive attention was paid both to the markings in the score and the bowing used by the orchestra whose video it was originally synched to.

Let me instead get something off my chest. Sample library developers are nearly completely negligent in their support for basic _bowed_ onsets. It's all about legato and spiccato. _Maybe_ you get one staccato (looking at you SF) but rarely do you get the tools needed for connected bowing of notes, which happens _a lot_ in real string scores. And no, the brushed-onset artics often labeled 'detache' are not it. Not until Synchron Elite Strings has there been sufficient attention paid to this - its 'performance detache' is exactly what's missing from most libs, and is much needed.

I've rendered this piece now with several libraries, and they all fall down in many ways.

I'm happy to hear a better mockup of this - have you got one?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I disagree with such a categorical statement that BS has more depth or more energy. Based on what?


You could also ask why modern orchestral recordings are done the way they are done, with a multiple mic setup, instead of just capturing the orchestra with one stereo microphone from one position.
The strength of Berlin is exactly that it lets you work with samples as if you would record an orchestra, thus providing energy, a detailed sound and yet lots of depth. (have I mentioned that I love this reverb?  )


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## David Kudell (Dec 30, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> i have never seen Orchestral Tools record that way. (maybe they did with some library i am not sure)


Tom Holkenborg Brass was recorded in the wider arrangement. Also it looks like Ark Zero as well, based on this video:


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> You could also ask why modern orchestral recordings are done the way they are done, with a multiple mic setup, instead of just capturing the orchestra with one stereo microphone from one position.



What makes you think MP3D is using one stereo mic position? That is a misunderstanding of how it works.



Living Fossil said:


> The strength of Berlin is exactly that it lets you work with samples as if you would record an orchestra, thus providing energy, a detailed sound and yet lots of depth. (have I mentioned that I love this reverb?  )



I think BS is the one that is recording from one or two fixed positions. MP3D is COMPLETELY configurable in this regard. It can represent one or two mic positions placed anywhere around the venue you want and also with a variety of mic techniques.


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## Nashi_VI (Dec 30, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> Tom Holkenborg Brass was recorded in the wider arrangement. Also it looks like Ark Zero as well, based on this video:



I see you are doing the same thing i have been doing....looking at every OT video skipping around searching for what positions/seatings set up a specific library was recorded with.


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## Dietz (Dec 30, 2022)

ChickenAndARoll said:


> Hey Dietz,
> 
> For rooms that don't have Vienna Standard presets, do we need to handle EQing to correctly affect the depth of an instrument, or is MIR doing that automatically when we move the icon around? For example, if I'm using Recording Studio Weiler and put an instance of MIR on a dry trumpet, piano, and saxophone, do we need to tailor the EQ settings manually to make it sound accurate? I'm paranoid that I'm not doing enough work here since I literally will just drag the icon and adjust the width until it sounds good 😂
> 
> I guess a better way to ask this would be: What exactly do the Vienna Standard Presets do? Is it just giving you an idealistic location of where a particular instrument normally goes within the room?


I don't want to drag this thread off-topic too much, as these questions might be better asked in VSL's own forum. I'll be brief, therefore:

You don't _need _EQ to affect depth, that's all part of the multi-positional and multi-directional IRs. You _can _add the additional Air Absorption Filter and /or additional EQing for the dry signal component (which MIR also takes care of) to enhance the effect.

Re: Preset Management: MIR 3D handles presets from two sides. "Venue Presets" include all Venue-specific data (most notably Microphone settings, but also RoomEQs etc ... everything that "defines the empty hall, readily set-up for recording"). - "Roles", OTOH, allow to define settings for individual signal sources (each one represented by a "MIR Icon" on a stage) within a specific Venue Preset. Once assigned properly (e.g. "Violins 1 - First Chair", or "My Leadvocal" ... you get the drift) they allow for instant switching between halls and/or different orchestral seating arrangements. 

_(Sidenote: If you happen to know VSL's legacy "MIRx", then you will find these vast preset collections in form of the "Vienna Standards" now. The big change is that you can not only adapt existing presets, but also create your own settings in MIR 3D.)_

HTH,


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## Living Fossil (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> What makes you think MP3D is using one stereo mic position? That is a misunderstanding of how it works.


I didn't write anywhere that that's how M3D works. 



Dewdman42 said:


> I think BS is the one that is recording from one or two fixed positions.


Why do you make this wrong assumption?
Decca + AB + Surround equals three mic configurations. And each of them captured 16 seating positions.


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## Dietz (Dec 30, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> So, all in all, my post was just about the side by side comparison, not the quality of the sound or the plugins themselves.


That's what I understood anyway, don't worry. No offence was taken - I was just trying to clarify a few aspects that came up.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> I didn't write anywhere that that's how M3D works.


I was simply replying to what you said:



Living Fossil said:


> You could also ask why modern orchestral recordings are done the way they are done, with a multiple mic setup, instead of just capturing the orchestra with one stereo microphone from one position.



what were you referring to as only using a single stereo microphone from one position?




> Why do you make this wrong assumption?
> Decca + AB + Surround equals three mic configurations. And each of them captured 16 seating positions.



Nice to hear that BS has 3 recorded positions, but still that is the static product in question with 3 pre-recorded IR positions. It is orders of magnitude less flexible then MirPro3D. I don't mean to slam it, just making honest observation. The more simple usage could in fact be preferable for those people seeking that sound within those more-limited confines.

BS does not really provide true stage positioning of the players also I might add (or does it?) it is providing ER's from various positions on the stage...from exactly three pre-determined mic locations which you can mix together as desired. It’s still up to you to provide other panning and depth clues to the direct sound from each player on the stage.

Back to what we were talking about before, I find it impossible to make a categorical statement that MirPro3D, in comparison to BS, is always a certain way. MirPro3D has several orders of magnitude more complexity and every use case will be different.


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## Leandro Gardini (Dec 30, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I have Inspirata which I find works well on close mic’ed instruments reducing the need for other mic positions. This has mean I am not interested in a similar solution with more studios. The 2 most obvious solutions are MIR3D and Berlin Studio. The main difference of course is that with MIR you can buy many rooms not just Teldex, however getting Teldex would be one of the main reasons for getting MIR so it seems still a good comparison.
> 
> If MIR looks a good option I would consider getting the vouchers to reduce the cost.
> 
> Does any one have more spatial reverbs and can tell me much about the differences?


I have the three ones and have never been successful in finding a good preset for dry instruments in Inspirata. Maybe it's just me, but I don't quite understand all the praise for it.
On the other hand, MIR Pro 3D and Berlin Studio have rendered excellent hassle-free results to me.
BS is surely easier to use, but MP is not complicated, either. If you had good results with Inspirata, both would be second nature for you.
MP is way more flexible than BS, as you can place and rotate the instrument to your liking. The many IRs also give you more options as opposed to BS, which has only Teldex in it. The flip side of MIR is the steep price, as everything in Vienna.
Despite the fact of having only one room, with Berlin Studio you can manipulate the color by changing the knobs and mic mixing. And when combined with other tools like Virtual Sound Stage, you can get as much flexibility as MIR Pro. 
I don't know if you have seen my test for Berlin Studio. In the case you have not, here is it:


I plan to release a similar test for MIR Pro in January.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Nice to hear that BS has 3 recorded positions, but still that is the static product in question with 3 pre-recorded IR positions.


Just for the record: 3 mic setups x 16 positions is 48 IR profiles (and not 3)


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

3 mic positions. 48 IR's. MirPro3d has thousands!


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> define "best results"
> 
> 
> I disagree with such a categorical statement that BS has more depth or more energy. Based on what? MirPro is very configurable and flexible. That user was apparantly not able to get as as much depth and energy as BS; according to them. it is not objectively honest to categorically say that MirPro has less depth or energy then BS.


The conversation followed previous observations.
"Best results" were already covered a few times, if you took the time to read, for example, the exchanges with Dietz and some guidance from him. There was also another user making suggestions for a better result with BS. Please, just scroll and read all over if you need that to be clear.
"Energy" was brought up as well, and was mentioned about the feeling that the sfz articulations were more clear, and stronger through BS.
"Depth"... well this is an evaluation of the listening. The evaluation was based on 1 example (Psycho). But the fact that we can disagree with hearing perceptions doesn't mean that someone is being dishonest. 
Nor has anyone said that MIR by itself has less capability to offer depth or anything else. A good text interpretation will lead in the opposite direction. That some people, like me, expect or wish, that MIR could have as much depth and energy as BS has shown, demonstrated in a future example.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> 3 mic positions. 48 IR's. MirPro3d has thousands!


Well, if that's the relevant thing for you, I'm sure you should get M3D!
For me, it's the sonic results that I get with Berlin Studio (and also the workflow) that make me love that plugin.


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## Nashi_VI (Dec 30, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> Well, if that's the relevant thing for you, I'm sure you should get M3D!
> For me, it's the sonic results that I get with Berlin Studio (and also the workflow) that make me love that plugin.


They both do similar things, but in the end the main difference is exactly the workflow (and the scope of the 2 plugins themselves), MIR is more granular in its apporoach and you can do pretty much anything you can think of with it, but it is more complex to use and also way more expensive even if you only buy it for Teldex, while BS is built to give you the OT sound out of the box and it is more of a direct approach, you don't need to fiddle around to much with the controls to get the sound it is aimed at reproducing and it is cheaper.
So different tools for different uses and different workflows....even if, at the same time, they can both accomplish very similar things and also be used very similarly as well.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

We


Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> The conversation followed previous observations.
> "Best results" were already covered a few times, if you took the time to read, for example, the exchanges with Dietz and some guidance from him. There was also another user making suggestions for a better result with BS. Please, just scroll and read all over if you need that to be clear.
> "Energy" was brought up as well, and was mentioned about the feeling that the sfz articulations were more clear, and stronger through BS.
> "Depth"... well this is an evaluation of the listening. The evaluation was based on 1 example (Psycho). But the fact that we can disagree with hearing perceptions doesn't mean that someone is being dishonest.
> Nor has anyone said that MIR by itself has less capability to offer depth or anything else. A good text interpretation will lead in the opposite direction. That some people, like me, expect or wish, that MIR could have as much depth and energy as BS has shown, demonstrated in a future example.



And to repeat, I disagree with that kind of blanket statement as I have already explained why it is not honest to make such a claim. Mirpro has incredible flexibility so use case can vary tremendously


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 30, 2022)

I see I missed a lot of fun!


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> Well, if that's the relevant thing for you, I'm sure you should get M3D!
> For me, it's the sonic results that I get with Berlin Studio (and also the workflow) that make me love that plugin.



Nothing wrong with that! Just saying….the results from mirpro can largely be a result of the creator more than the tool itself. It is not fair nor honest to make blanket statements about how it sounds like less energy or less depth. That can easily be pilot error. 

It can be perfectly fair to say that you tried it and you were not personally able to get results you like.


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## richhickey (Dec 30, 2022)

To make clear what I think is @Living Fossil's point, and the key difference here, quoting @Dietz from the VSL forums:



> MIR on the other hand is founded completely on Ambisonics, a highly advanced meta-format which relies on the purest form of a four-capsule coincident microphone array.


Thus no matter how many different source and recording positions are offered by MIR, any spaced microphone configuration, like a Decca tree, is *emulated* from a _coincident_ IR set. With Berlin Studio the IRs _are spaced stereo in the first place_. IMO, one never sounds like the other. Thus if one has a preference for spaced stereo pairs, or are used to their sound or workflow given it is a most common technique in orchestral recordings, one might prefer Berlin Studio. It is actually apples vs oranges. Neither can do what the other one does, no matter the number of possible configurations of MIR.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 30, 2022)

richhickey said:


> Thus no matter how many different source and recording positions are offered by MIR, any spaced microphone configuration, like a Decca tree, is *emulated* from a _coincident_ IR set. With Berlin Studio the IRs _are spaced stereo in the first place_. IMO, one never sounds like the other. Thus if one has a preference for spaced stereo pairs, or are used to their sound or workflow given it is a most common technique in orchestral recordings, one might prefer Berlin Studio. It is actually apples vs oranges. Neither can do what the other one does, no matter the number of possible configurations of MIR.


Very appropriate summary.
Berlin Studio was meant to capture the sound of the Teldex studio in the way Orchestral Tools recorded the majority of their products, several years ago. Thus using the same microphone setups, pre-amps, etc.
The plugin does not use any mathematical "projections" or calculations to simulate non-recorded positions or non-used microphones. Like someone mentioned, MIR is a _virtual stage_ plugin. Berlin Studio is a more "standard" convolution reverb with a matrix of presets. With a focus on realism and usability from day one.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> It can be perfectly fair to say that you tried it and you were not personally able to get results you like.


I don't intend to try M3D, neither do I intend to try & buy many other plugins.
I trust my instinct if it's about the question what product to try & buy and which I can skip based on listening to the available demos and walkthroughs. 
By that I don't mean that it's necessarily the same for different persons.


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## Gabriel S. (Dec 30, 2022)

Yet another Mir question


There's been some very informative discussion on a few Mir Pro threads the past week, and it's always nice to have Dietz offer his expertise. I have another question regarding the placement of instruments on the virtual stage: it seems that some people criticize the wide-panning of the...




vi-control.net





Recommend reading


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## Trash Panda (Dec 30, 2022)

Too many words. Not enough examples.

Here is an attempt at approximating the same setup in Berlin Studio and MIR Pro 3D with VSL Synchronized Flute 1. Hopefully the performance isn't too horrible for @Nando Florestan. 

Dry:
View attachment VSL SZyd Flute 1 (Dry).mp3


Berlin Studio (Woodwinds placement, 10% left pan in Synchron Player, 0 dB Signal, 0 dB Tree, -Inf AB, -12 dB Surround):
View attachment VSL SZyd Flute 1 (Berlin Studio).mp3


MIR Pro 3D (Teldex, 35% dry/wet, 0 dB main mic, -12 dB secondary mic, see screenshot for placement):
View attachment VSL SZyd Flute 1 (MIR).mp3


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> We
> 
> And to repeat, I disagree with that kind of blanket statement as I have already explained why it is not honest to make such a claim. Mirpro has incredible flexibility so use case can vary tremendously


there is no "blanket statement" but evaluations about the provided material (Psycho). No "claim", as well as I, am precisely trying to figure out ways that MIR could have a result that bring the characteristics of the sound previously shared.
To make it a bit clear to you, I am a MIR user. I am trying to understand, not through what is being written, but from the people who are generously and professionally offering examples that I can listen to.


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Dec 30, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> Very appropriate summary.
> Berlin Studio was meant to capture the sound of the Teldex studio in the way Orchestral Tools recorded the majority of their products, several years ago. Thus using the same microphone setups, pre-amps, etc.
> The plugin does not use any mathematical "projections" or calculations to simulate non-recorded positions or non-used microphones. Like someone mentioned, MIR is a _virtual stage_ plugin. Berlin Studio is a more "standard" convolution reverb with a matrix of presets. With a focus on realism and usability from day one.


Peter, is BS having any issues with Digital Performer 11? I have read that with Logic there are some issues right?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 30, 2022)

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Peter, is BS having any issues with Digital Performer 11? I have read that with Logic there are some issues right?


I have no test results from DP yet.

Logic Pro is a difficult app to "get moving". In my observations it is hardly using Performance cores when it starts complaining, with its meters showing high loads. 

If I switch to Reaper on the same M1, I see a much more appropriate spread of processing over the cores and a much, much lower CPU use.

I remain with my current opinion that Logic Pro is not a competitive program to most other Daws.
I'd love to be proven wrong.
(as read on a developers forum: the latest versions of Logic reported itself to plugins as Garageband").

Berlin Studio runs three True Stereo instances in parallel, that's a serious amount of number crunching. For most setups no problem at all to run quite some instances, but in Logic that number is very limited.

The current development branch is now 15-30% more efficient, due to algorithmic changes (all CPU/OS versions benefit from that).


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> The plugin does not use any mathematical "projections" or calculations to simulate non-recorded positions



To be clear mirpro is using recorded positions also! It’s using a lot more of them so you have options. All convolution processing involves a certain amount of calculation. It is true however that the mic arrays are being calculated in mirpro. I agree that BS must be a great compliment to OT wet libraries and also I think it could be quite fine for other dry libraries seeking the same room sound as was captured using the given mics and mic arrays at the given mic locations where BS was captured. But I think this is really not much different then using altiverb or spaces or numerous other reverbs that have provided a collection of IR’s in a given space and have provided this same kind of functionality for decades. Now we have BS take in teldex. And it appears to be a very good collection at that. Fine! But also still true that it doesn’t do 1/10 of what mirpro can do in the right hands. We really should not be comparing these two tools the only reason people are is because they both captured teldex.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 30, 2022)

@Trash Panda 

If I simply add a hall reverb to a voice recording that I made, you will say someone is in the middle of the concert hall speaking into a megaphone. If it's a voice everyone easily detects the 2 problems:

1. Proximity effect: Microphones capture the low end stronger when close to the sound source. This is not a real life phenomenon, it's something that happens to microphones only. In real life, low frequencies travel further than high frequencies, this is why you hear the bass of someone else's party.
2. Air absorption: Like I just said, the sound loses high frequencies proportionately to the distance traveled.

To fix the megaphone effect, I would have to filter out both low and high frequencies from my close recording, and only after doing so can I place it in a hall reverb and have it sound realistic-ish.

Humans know how human voices sound in all spaces. Instruments are much, much harder. Both your examples, to me, sound like a flute playing into a megaphone.

And from now on I will refrain from talking about the wrong notes


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## Trash Panda (Dec 30, 2022)

Nando Florestan said:


> @Trash Panda
> 
> If I simply add a hall reverb to a voice recording that I made, you will say someone is in the middle of the concert hall speaking into a megaphone. If it's a voice everyone easily detects the 2 problems:
> 
> ...


That’s why each program has EQ built into it. I didn’t use it in either example so people can hear a straight comparison of the plugins. 

What’s interesting is doing a comparison via match EQ to Berlin Woodwinds. Instead of a high and low roll off, it typically wants to add a lot more lows and highs (due to the noise in OT samples). 



Nando Florestan said:


> And from now on I will refrain from talking about the wrong notes


Maybe just consider a more tactful delivery. Calling what people share “horrible” only serves to dissuade others from sharing and it’s incredibly rude.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 30, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> To be clear mirpro is using recorded positions also! It’s using a lot more of them so you have options. All convolution processing involves a certain amount of calculation. It is true however that the mic arrays are being calculated in mirpro. I agree that BS must be a great compliment to OT wet libraries and also I think it could be quite fine for other dry libraries seeking the same room sound as was captured using the given mics and mic arrays at the given mic locations where BS was captured. But I think this is really not much different then using altiverb or spaces or numerous other reverbs that have provided a collection of IR’s in a given space and have provided this same kind of functionality for decades. Now we have BS take in teldex. And it appears to be a very good collection at that. Fine! But also still true that it doesn’t do 1/10 of what mirpro can do in the right hands. We really should not be comparing these two tools the only reason people are is because they both captured teldex.


You are quite opinionated, very fine, and passionate, but you appear to know not much of what is going on inside these plugins. I wrote Berlin Studio and its convolution engine, based on PhD theses. I also know the concepts and maths about Mir. I can read the scientific stuff.
MIR and BS are based on different concepts, used different recording techniques, etc. Like I said above.
Comparing with Altiverb and just bypassing my concept with specific mic sets? That is not fair. Altiverb has no stage positions nor multi mics.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 30, 2022)

Everyone on this forum is quite opinionated including you. Good luck with your product but with that kind of attitude there is zero chance I will ever buy it. I have complimented your product several ways already. Sorry this opinion does not work for you. I do think it sounds good notwithstanding the fact that the demo source tracks were recorded in an anechoic chamber. But I hope that opinion helps you. It is a step up from Altiverb and other IR collections, I agree, because of more IR's representing various stage positions; but essentially the same concept in a convenient plugin form.

Btw I agree mirpro and BS are different concepts which is why people should not even be comparing them as I already stated. MirPro stands completely alone in this area. Mirpro can do at least 10x what BS can do and sounds fantastic too. Get over it.


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## richhickey (Dec 30, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> You are quite opinionated, very fine, and passionate, but you appear to know not much of what is going on inside these plugins. I wrote Berlin Studio and its convolution engine, based on PhD theses. I also know the concepts and maths about Mir. I can read the scientific stuff.


Talking about facts, clarifying, expressing opinions etc is all well and good. Talking about people "You are quite X, but you appear to know not much about Y" is just anti-social and an especially bad look for a vendor. Please stick to the products and lay off the people, thanks.


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## muk (Dec 31, 2022)

Thanks for the comparison @Trash Panda. Very useful to hear that. I hear very clearly what Nando alluded to in his post above. This is a close mic recording with additional hall reverb on top of it. It can be heard very clearly in the air noises from the flute. Most prominently at three seconds in, and five seconds in respectively. From a distance, you don't hear this air noises, as they don't travel as far. It's a clear giveaway, and to me it makes the end result sound artificial. And woodwinds is actually the one orchestral section where I think close miced recordings plus artificial reverb works the best. But you still have to eq the source very carefully to remove the proximity effect as much as possible (without affecting the sound of the instrument). Something you deliberately didn't do here for comparison purposes.

I am just typing this to voice my opinion that close micing an instrument and adding reverb will not sound the same as recording instruments on stage in a studio/hall. The former approach works quite well for woodwinds, and long strings notes. But if a signal contains strong transients, this approach reaches its limits. It's most apparent with brass, also percussion and piano. You can clearly hear it on strings pizzicati too. It's incredibly useful to have this option, and it's quite astonishing what reverberation tools (including Berlin Studio and MIR 3D) can achieve. Alas, a substitute for wet recorded libraries with several mic positions they are not. Somebody wrote in the Commercial Announcement thread that we don't need multi-miced sample libraries anymore with these reverbs. I don't share that opinion.

Leandro's 'ultimate' reverb test is also interesting in this regard. With a flute sound (no prominent breath/air noises in the phrase he uses) he can get relatively close to the recording with decca tree/surround in Teldex. Though the version with Berlin Studio doesn't have the same depth (might be closer still if he reduced the dry signal more). If he were to repeat the test with a phrase of the french horn playing forte, the results would be much further apart. Because a french horn excites the room way differently than woodwinds, and creates a bloom that isn't captured in the close mic. No reverb can add that blooming if it isn't there in the sample. Christian Henson made a similar test here, with a Lexicon reverb plugin:



Long story short, I think MIR 3D and Berlin Studio both are incredibly powerful tools. But realistically, replacing wet samples with these tools will not achieve the same results, depending on the source material.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 31, 2022)

richhickey said:


> Talking about people "You are quite X, but you appear to know not much about Y" is just anti-social and an especially bad look for a vendor.


Well, in this case the anonymous poster has proven multiple times in his statements that he/she don't understand what sets the concept from Berlin Studio apart from other convo verbs like altiverb. 
Permanently ignoring what different mic positions _really_ mean is just obnoxious at some point.
And so the question arises if it's just ignorance or if it's bad intent. With anonymous posters it's hard to tell.


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## Dietz (Dec 31, 2022)

muk said:


> a french horn excites the room way differently than woodwinds


... which is exactly what MIR takes into account by means of the so-called Directivity Profiles (an integral part of each Instrument Profile). They have been measured from eight angles for most instruments of a modern orchestra, corresponding to the eight directions from which the impulses were radiated into the room during recording.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 31, 2022)

muk said:


> From a distance, you don't hear this air noises, as they don't travel as far. It's a clear giveaway, and to me it makes the end result sound artificial.


You don't hear them with Berlin either if you turn down the direct signal. (However, flutes are the least suited orchestral instruments due to their spectral content to test a reverb unfortunately)
I've written it multiple times that I don't see Berlin as a tool to recreate the "real" acoustics of a venue, which is pointless in my opinion, since in real life your brain's interaction with the space is completely different and compensates e.g. for buildups in some frequency areas etc. I rather see it as a tool to recreate the aesthetics of modern recordings (which usually also favor an "artificial" sound).

Where I agree with you is that brass players often play (much) better in good rooms, so there will be an interaction with the room that can't be reproduced in retrospect, regardless of what you do. Same goes for singers who e.g. shape their vibrato according to the reverberation of a church etc.
You can't fake real interaction.

Then again, (as also mentioned) wet libraries often still suffer from weird sound artifacts during note transitions due to the involved crossfades etc.
Personally, I favor the sound of dry VSL woodwinds (or also 8dio's intimate Woodwinds) in combination with Berlin Studio to the sound of OT's Woodwinds (that was recorded there).


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## Gabriel S. (Dec 31, 2022)

muk said:


> Thanks for the comparison @Trash Panda. Very useful to hear that. I hear very clearly what Nando alluded to in his post above. This is a close mic recording with additional hall reverb on top of it. It can be heard very clearly in the air noises from the flute. Most prominently at three seconds in, and five seconds in respectively. From a distance, you don't hear this air noises, as they don't travel as far. It's a clear giveaway, and to me it makes the end result sound artificial. And woodwinds is actually the one orchestral section where I think close miced recordings plus artificial reverb works the best. But you still have to eq the source very carefully to remove the proximity effect as much as possible (without affecting the sound of the instrument). Something you deliberately didn't do here for comparison purposes.
> 
> I am just typing this to voice my opinion that close micing an instrument and adding reverb will not sound the same as recording instruments on stage in a studio/hall. The former approach works quite well for woodwinds, and long strings notes. But if a signal contains strong transients, this approach reaches its limits. It's most apparent with brass, also percussion and piano. You can clearly hear it on strings pizzicati too. It's incredibly useful to have this option, and it's quite astonishing what reverberation tools (including Berlin Studio and MIR 3D) can achieve. Alas, a substitute for wet recorded libraries with several mic positions they are not. Somebody wrote in the Commercial Announcement thread that we don't need multi-miced sample libraries anymore with these reverbs. I don't share that opinion.
> 
> ...



Exactly! Also, in addition to what you said every instrument has its own frequency distribution pattern...sending different information to different directions in the room, therefore it creates a more complex early reflection pattern than a speaker in a room. That's a limitation I see with IR.

This is something that Vienna has done. They studied each instrument and therefore MIR modifies how that instrument reacts with the room (each stage position triggers 8 IRs...6 horizontal directions upwards and downwards). So their spatial information in MIR should be more realistic than in BS, Inspirata, EW spaces or altiverb. Because if you just place a speaker in the room, well, every speaker has its own radiation pattern and therefore it's printing its own sound in the room...but every instrument reacts differently so in order to get more realism, you should take that into account. In conclusion: an IR will never replace an instrument in that room. Not even MIR will do, but in theory it is the most advanced thing I have seen so far.

Then as everything, at the end let your ears judge, and take into account everything is important for you. This is just theory.

Please read here, starting in "Multi-response impulses". They explain it very well





Think MIR! | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


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## Dietz (Dec 31, 2022)

Thanks for the link, Gabriel!


Gabriel S. said:


> Please read here, startin in "Multi-response impulses".


... and this is the direct link to the section that covers the idea of Directivity Profiles.

_EDIT: ..... errr ... this still takes you to the beginning of that chapter. 8-/ You'll have to scroll down in any case, sorry. 8-|_


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Jan 1, 2023)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> You are quite opinionated, very fine, and passionate, but you appear to know not much of what is going on inside these plugins. I wrote Berlin Studio and its convolution engine, based on PhD theses. I also know the concepts and maths about Mir. I can read the scientific stuff.
> MIR and BS are based on different concepts, used different recording techniques, etc. Like I said above.
> Comparing with Altiverb and just bypassing my concept with specific mic sets? That is not fair. Altiverb has no stage positions nor multi mics.


Hi Peter,

happy new year!

the introductory price will stay until?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Hi Peter,
> 
> happy new year!
> 
> the introductory price will stay until?


Thanks very much Rubens, best wishes to you too.

The current price will remain in place until at least the end of January.


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## Denkii (Jan 2, 2023)

Dietz said:


>


It would be so cool if we had the option to enable overlays in mir 3d that show you where everyone would be seated by default like what's seen here.
Just an idea.


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## Dietz (Jan 2, 2023)

Denkii said:


> It would be so cool if we had the option to enable overlays in mir 3d that show you where everyone would be seated by default like what's seen here.
> Just an idea.


Thanks! The idea of a customisable graphic overlay is nice, and in fact it's already on the list for ages. Perhaps one of the VSL developers can fit this into an update.

But still it's important to understand that idea of "defaults" is actually a bit flawed. Not everyone is writing for identical ensemble constellations, sizes, styles or taste, really. I bet no-one would use the "typical" (well, yeah ...) seating for a brass band, or a string quartet, or a piano recital, or ...


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## FireGS (Jan 2, 2023)

Dietz said:


> Thanks! The idea of a customisable graphic overlay is nice, and in fact it's already on the list for ages. Perhaps one of the VSL developers can fit this into an update.
> 
> But still it's important to understand that idea of "defaults" is actually a bit flawed. Not everyone is writing for identical ensemble constellations, sizes, styles or taste, really. I bet no-one would use the "typical" (well, yeah ...) seating for a brass band, or a string quartet, or a piano recital, or ...


AND, not all recorded sources will sound the same, even in the same position in MIR, or with the same amount of wet/dry.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 2, 2023)

Unless you are specifically trying to recreate the sound of a live venue concert hall, then the whole notion of preset arrangements on the stage are kind of moot.


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## Denkii (Jan 2, 2023)

I knew i shouldn't have posted that but I stand by my decision. I think it would be cool 

Just to give an idea of where everything would be normally. It would just be an overlay so nothing would keep you from deviating from it. I just find myself a bit lost sometimes when I begin setting everything up for a new project and it's just a complete empty room without any indications.
I'd probably just use that to place everything once and then turn it off and start adjusting according to my liking.
Just feel it could help eliminating the first fear of empty page vibe...could make the start of the process a bit less daunting.
Obviously "get gud" is one way to solve it. But also I've used other reverbs that give you something like this and i have always enjoyed it (obviously, since I never got gud).


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 2, 2023)

I totally hear you, it was my first reaction also when I first purchased MirPro. But those layout templates are a bit deceiving.

If you download some of the many demo projects created over the years (on VSL website), many of which include MirPro usage, you will see that quite often the arrangement of players on the stage is not following a nice standard arrangement every time at all. There are many variations, depending on the mix desired, some more radical then others, with players on top of each other and all manner of things. Its an interesting starting place to see a layout, but the simple truth is that its simply not that standard. A rough starting place perhaps but there is no hard and fast rule about any of this...mixing a recording to sound good can come in many forms...with MirPro...part of the process is moving the players around on the stage until they sound and blend the way you want them to sound....and honestly..in all the example projects I've seen where someone took the time to do that...the arrangement of players on the stage did not match any kind of standardized layout at all.

This is especially true for mixing a recording which is not meant to replicate a live performance per say, for example a film score. For a film score we just want it to sound bad ass. Now if you are trying to mix an orchestra that actually really needs to sound like someone is sitting in the 10th row at a concert venue....well then maybe a preset layout might help you get closer to mimicking that, but I think probably in reality you will still end up moving your players around beyond those confines in order to get it to sound as you wish.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 2, 2023)

Denkii said:


> I just find myself a bit lost sometimes when I begin setting everything up for a new project and it's just a complete empty room without any indications.



So along those lines, what *I* would really like to see from VSL is more guidance on how to use MirPro, in terms of some tutorials that go through the process of moving players around on a stage and getting "the sound". Why to move players where and when. I know I personally have zero experience actually recording real players, moving mics around, moving players around, etc in a real room to get the recording as I want it, etc. There are a thousand complexities, so this is not an easy topic, but I feel you 100% about feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the possibilities in MirPro and figuring out what moves to make to get it where I want it. Sliding icons around endlessly hoping it will sound good with the next move is a difficult process. There needs to be some method to the madness, so to speak...which is what I think you are hoping for when you ask for layout overlays... but what I am suggesting is there is more to it then that.. More guidance is needed for how to decide how to position players relatively to each other and to the room, near which walls, how far away from the walls, facing which directions...and where to put the mics, etc...these are all decisions which if we had some guidance would help us to adopt a process for doing that.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

Dewdman42 said:


> So along those lines, what *I* would really like to see from VSL is more guidance on how to use MirPro, in terms of some tutorials that go through the process of moving players around on a stage and getting "the sound". Why to move players where and when. I know I personally have zero experience actually recording real players, moving mics around, moving players around, etc in a room to get the recording as I want it, etc. There are a thousand complexities, so this is not an easy topic, but I feel you 100% about feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the possibilities in MirPro and figuring out what moves to make to get it where I want it. Sliding icons around endlessly hoping it will sound good with the next move is a difficult process. There needs to be some method to the madness, so to speak...which is what I think you are hoping for when you ask for layout overlays... but what I am suggesting is there is more to it then that.. More guidance is needed for how to decide how to position players relatively to each other and to the room, near which walls, how far away from the walls, facing which directions...and where to put the mics, etc...these are all decisions which if we had some guidance would help us to adopt a process for doing that.


Bummer,
I just wanted to ask you to share some of your mixes, to showcase that MirPro is so much more flexible and better sounding than the other plugin discussed here.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 2, 2023)

Peter this is my last response to you as I find you to be rude. I have not ever stated on this thread that I think one of them sounds better than the other. I have responded to fundamentally false claims made against mirpro simply in the interest of truth seeking. As I have already stated clearly they both sound great, your demos sound great anyway we don’t have a trial version to try it. Mirpro is orders of magnitude more flexible but arguably more complex to use and more expensive. I don’t know what else you want from me other then conflict apparently


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

Dewdman42 said:


> Peter this is my last response to you as I find you to be rude. I have not ever stated on this thread that I think one of them sounds better than the other. I have responded to fundamentally false claims made against mirpro simply in the interest of truth seeking. As I have already stated clearly they both sound great, your demos sound great anyway we don’t have a trial version to try it. Mirpro is orders of magnitude more flexible but arguably more complex to use and more expensive. I do t know what else you want from me other then conflict apparently


This is not rude, this is a normal question to you. You claim that it is orders of magnitude more flexible but arguably more complex to use and more expensive. So again, you make me really curious about how it sounds. Since you mentioned these points a few times, I got the impression that you are an experienced user. You indicated above that you are not, hence my "Bummer...".


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 2, 2023)

what I said is that I am not experienced with actual real world orchestra recording techniques. I have never worked in a recording studio recording orchestras in rooms with microphones. As is the case of with most of us, including most of your users as well.

Peter, please go find someone else to attack. I'm done with a you and any interest in your product.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

Dewdman42 said:


> what I said is that I am not experienced with actual real world orchestra recording techniques. I have never worked in a recording studio recording orchestras in rooms with microphones. As is the case of with most of us, including most of your users as well.
> 
> Peter, please go find someone else to attack. I'm done with a you and any interest in your product.


May I remind you that in another thread you repeatedly tried to catch me with how I chose my words? Trying to find contradictions in what I say? Even about things you now say you're not experienced with...
Already forgotten your hints in this thead about the small number of IRs in Berlin Studio? Don't be suddenly so innocent.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 2, 2023)

I asked you for clarifications on some things you said about ER's from the floor, they were sincere questions, I was not trying to "catch you in your words". You never really answered my sincere questions either. I have since gotten information elsewhere from nicer people then you such that I don't believe there is any problem from ER's coming from the floor, not when using MP3D, or any other reverberation product that might also add more ER's. I guess that must be what you are referring to, but nobody was trying to "catch you in your words". if you feel you are being trapped by your words, then be more careful with your words.

What I find interesting about this thread, is that nobody has really attacked your product at all, the attacks here have been against VSL. yet VSL folks on this thread continue to be nice, helpful and polite, while you seem to want to fight with anyone that doesn't join forces with you in some kind of attack against VSL. That kind of bully marketing will never win a purchase from me. Good luck and good day.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

"if you feel you are being trapped by your words, then be more careful with your words."

Thank you for the tip. I am aware of your style now, after having read back some discussions in which you took part and for instance in this weird last sentence here.
Where did I say what/how I feel?


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 2, 2023)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> Already forgotten your hints in this thead about the small number of IRs in Berlin Studio? Don't be suddenly so innocent.


I was responding to voracious comments from other people, keeping the facts straight. Is there a problem with discussing the facts of the technical differences between these two products? That is the title of this thread after all. Must I be attacked by you now for discussing these differences?

Your product does in fact have much fewer IR's then MP3D. That is not to say that it needs more! Your product is not intended to offer the insane flexibility that MP3D offers...and that is fine..its also easier to use and less expensive!

My view of your product is that it is an attempt to generically offer as IR's, what wet libraries such as OT and EWHO offer with burned in stage positions. This is actually something new on its own right, you should promote that rather than attacking another product (or person) which is actually quite different and still worthy of praise on its own merits. I think it might be better to compare your product to Altiverb and Spaces, for people that have in the past used a few simple IR's to accomplish stereo and depth imaging. However, comparing it to MP3D is from the outset....ludicrous....its an obscene comparison to make from the start. MP3D is orders of magnitude more flexible with high levels of engineering involved. All of these products, including yours and MP3D, have pros and cons. Focus on the pros of yours without trying to claim its the next MP3D (which it most definitely is not). I could very well, however see it being useful for people that have in the past painstakingly used more simple convolution processing to setup depth on the stage.

You haven't said too much about it, but I don't perceive that your product is really doing anything related to dry signal stage positioning... So in that light it does not really compete at all with MP3D, nor with some others including VSS, EAReverb, etc..which do. Or maybe it is? I haven't heard much about that, only songs of praise that it sounds great. Ok.. but still, if someone wants to get precise about stage positioning, that includes not only some IR's with ER's in them, but also the need to manipulate the direct signal panning, width, depth, directivity, proximity effect, air absorption, etc. in addition to ER differences that might occur, in order to handle complete stage positioning.

So one has to wonder, what is really the point of having so many stage positions in your product if its not really handling the direct signal positioning as well? it is probably perfectly well good enough to do all the direct signal handling through various means that people have done of years, and then simply a couple of IR's, or even a single IR will handle the depth aspect of the stage just perfectly fine... or perhaps 3 IR's for the three potential mic arrays...something like that. In some respects your product is pretending to be MP3D, which it is not even close to being...while being overly complex for what it actually is. So you have 48 IR's, but perhaps 3 (or a few) would suffice.

I get that you captured the teldex room and that is cool. people will like that. Its well captured and people seem to like the sound so that is all good news and it seems easy enough to use, all fine, I like that you have it all contained into a plugin, making it easier for some people to grasp setting it up...all fine. But MP3D you are not.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 2, 2023)

Dewdman42 said:


> So along those lines, what *I* would really like to see from VSL is more guidance on how to use MirPro, in terms of some tutorials that go through the process of moving players around on a stage and getting "the sound". Why to move players where and when. I know I personally have zero experience actually recording real players, moving mics around, moving players around, etc in a room to get the recording as I want it, etc. There are a thousand complexities, so this is not an easy topic, but I feel you 100% about feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the possibilities in MirPro and figuring out what moves to make to get it where I want it. Sliding icons around endlessly hoping it will sound good with the next move is a difficult process. There needs to be some method to the madness, so to speak...which is what I think you are hoping for when you ask for layout overlays... but what I am suggesting is there is more to it then that.. More guidance is needed for how to decide how to position players relatively to each other and to the room, near which walls, how far away from the walls, facing which directions...and where to put the mics, etc...these are all decisions which if we had some guidance would help us to adopt a process for doing that.


+1 to this. I tried the demo of Mir a while back but found it fairly complex (and I'm sure powerful) for me - probably something that would've been alleviated with a "tutorial for dummies". That's why I bought Berlin Studio - it is pretty straightforward to use (apart from some growing pains that are being addressed by Peter, but to be expected with a new product).


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 2, 2023)

@Peter Emanuel Roos It’s sometimes a good idea to let things rest when there’s a disagreement with someone. At some point further discussion becomes unfruitful which seems to be the case here.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

> "However, comparing it to MP3D is from the outset....ludicrous....its an obscene comparison to make from the start."



Well, that certainly did not come from me!



> without trying to claim its the next MP3D



Please please please! Where did I claim this? Show me!

I have a lot of respect for the VSL people, I have been a guest in their Synchron studio for a few days for a mixing course for composers, I admire their projects since day one. I have been a customer since around 2004, and been a long time member of their forum.

You are pretty nasty here with these suggestions, are you aware of that?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

Dewdman42 said:


> > You haven't said too much about it, but I don't perceive that your product is really doing anything related to dry signal stage positioning...


*this* - you just shot yourself in the foot. Both feet.


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## Denkii (Jan 2, 2023)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> *this* - you just shot yourself in the foot. Both feet.


I hope that if you will take away anything from this discussion, it should be that you should try and invest some time and effort into learning how to deal with criticism, no matter if it's constructive or destructive.
It's a very poor look for someone who represents a product to get to this level, especially if it's done with an account that is known to be linked to the company/product.


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## Trash Panda (Jan 2, 2023)

Ok. It’s time for third thread to get the XKCD badge. 







@Peter Emanuel Roos I think it would be beneficial for your image and your sales to refrain from engaging in debates like these. Even if you prove you are right in such debates, such spats can turn people off who would otherwise be inclined to become a customer. 

You have a 40+ page thread of praise and multiple smaller threads talking positively about your product. That’s insane in the best kind of way for a reverb to be received in a forum that largely obsesses over baked in reverb and legato transitions. You have nothing to prove. Your product speaks for itself as does your fan base.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

Trash Panda said:


> Ok. It’s time for third thread to get the XKCD badge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, much appreciated - I need to chill, I know.


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## Denkii (Jan 2, 2023)

Trash Panda said:


> Ok. It’s time for third thread to get the XKCD badge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Next time I will just explain to you what I am trying to express and you do your word-finessing-magic for me.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 2, 2023)

Being a business owner like you are now, Peter, makes things different for you. I know you already know this, but still: It’s no longer Peter Roos, old time VI Control member, that is having a disagreement and a discussion with a user here - it’s also Peter Roos, company owner, and people will see it that way. So everything you write, also that of a heated moment, will fall back on your company / your products.

We have had other company owners who’s had heated moments here on the forum, as you no doubt know, and I think if someone asked them afterwards if it was a good idea, they will all say no


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

Thanks Henrik, good advice. I will do my best to stay out of most subforums.
Also, arguing with people hiding behind a nickname: I should have known better.


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## ControlCentral (Jan 2, 2023)

Rudianos said:


> We should do a Teldex showdown. The new Berlin - MIR3D - Altiverb - and I suppose stock Orchestral Tools Berlin back to back 3 versions each


What a time to be alive!


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