# Is this normal?



## The_Controllers (Jul 7, 2010)

Basically, I thought why not start composing for no budget, amateur short films since I need the experience. Found a director who told me that he'd be happy with me to do his music but warned me that he had hired 3 composers before me and STILL wasn't happy. Boy should I have seen that as a warning. 

Firstly, he sends me an online link to a 'loose' clip of his film with an excuse that there's no point in sending me a copy of the fixed picture. I clearly asked for a locked clip to be sent to me so I can work perfectly to it inside my DAW, without worrying that the music won't sync up to the final edit. 

Second, I start writing the music to the clip, considering that since it's a romantic drama thing, I don't really need sync points. After spending ages on the piano trying to look through the bad acting, shaky camera etc... I find a theme which is perfect (To my ears anyway) - skip the writing process and I've got a near finished cue 1M1. The cue did have a 'voice' of it's own to support the film but to him, it's a massive no no, it must be strictly underscore. It's like he can't see the weaknesses in his film.

The amount of adjustments/re-do's the director asks me to make is phenomenal. I think I've written around 25 minutes of here/there music in total for 1M1, a 4 minute cue because he just can't make his mind up. That's gone and given me a hefty portion of writer's block :cry: 

To round it off, he slyly drops the "For my next project, I've chosen to skip composers as they are way too problematic, and I'm simply gonna use royalty free online music."

Now my question is, do I continue to work on the project from hell for a credit? Should I expect future projects to be this difficult?


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## wst3 (Jul 7, 2010)

One person's take...

I don't do projects from hell for free anymore. In fact there are probably less than a handful of people that I'd collaborate with for free anyway, but that's a different thread.

From my perspective, no matter what I do my work will not be fairly represented in the final product, the director just does not seem to understand the value of the audio that supports his film.

Since I'm not getting paid, and the final product will most likely not be a great reference, I'm 2/3 of the way from walking.

Add to that the lack of respect being shown and I think it's a done deal... I'd walk.

In all candor I can't remember the last time I walked, I will usually do everything I can to make a situation work-able before bailing. I'm not certain that's always the right thing to do, but...

Now most of my work over the last several years has been for live theatre, and one advantage of this medium is that once the show closes there is no record<G>. If a director makes a complete mess of my sound design or music no one will remember, and that is some small consolation.

For something where there is a permanent record I am much more careful. I have asked to have my name removed from the credits twice, when I felt that the finished product did not fall anywhere near what I was trying to do.

There is an ego issue there that must be resolved - is it just that I don't like what the director did with the music and sound, or is it really and truly horrible. I will always get a second opinion before making a rash decision.

You also asked "Should I expect future projects to be this difficult"

Tough question - some of my best work has resulted from having to fight with directors and producers - tooth and nail sometimes<G>!

But by and large the projects I am most proud of have been an absolute joy to work on. Which is not to suggest that they were easy, but any and all challenges were met head on by the entire team, and it was fun.


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## Dan Selby (Jul 7, 2010)

The_Controllers @ Wed Jul 07 said:


> Now my question is, do I continue to work on the project from hell for a credit? Should I expect future projects to be this difficult?



No.

and

Given your experience here I would doubt you'll be putting yourself in that position in the future, will you? :wink: 

Seriously: no money and (if it ever gets finished) you get a credit on (going by your description) a POS film which no one is ever going to see made by a completely unprofessional muppet who is never going to go on to anything better.

If you're going to work for nothing you really need to be getting something else out of it (credit, experience, contacts etc.) Sounds like you've gotten all the experience out of this you need and the credit and contacts aren't worth anything. Chalk it up and move on, I say.

I'm on the fence, as you can tell. :D


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## Lex (Jul 7, 2010)

...and you are working with this person, because...??

Is the movie really that phenomenal?

If it's simply to get experience scoring you'd be better off with scoring scenes from whichever DVD...

aLex


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## Ashermusic (Jul 7, 2010)

The_Controllers @ Wed Jul 07 said:


> Basically, I thought why not start composing for no budget, amateur short films since I need the experience. Found a director who told me that he'd be happy with me to do his music but warned me that he had hired 3 composers before me and STILL wasn't happy. Boy should I have seen that as a warning.
> 
> Firstly, he sends me an online link to a 'loose' clip of his film with an excuse that there's no point in sending me a copy of the fixed picture. I clearly asked for a locked clip to be sent to me so I can work perfectly to it inside my DAW, without worrying that the music won't sync up to the final edit.
> 
> ...



Lose this jerk like a bad habit.


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## JohnG (Jul 7, 2010)

I don't see any reason to work with someone like this, on a dreadful-sounding film.

Reasons to do a free / cheap job:

1. Motivations of friendship -- your university buddy

2. "Branding" yourself -- director / project / title / actors are very famous

3. Clearly it is a production company with lots of work and you will be getting more from them later that WILL pay properly.

4. The director / producer is friends with Steven Spielberg (or similar) and you are pretty sure he'll see it, AND you can do a great job. So that what SS sees reflects one's genius.

5. Director is such a good guy that you feel you have met a new, dear friend.

None of those seems applicable here. Jay's advice seems correct.


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## Markus S (Jul 7, 2010)

It's actually a great lesson : If they pay you zero, your music is worth zero, and you are treated as someone providing zero value to their project. Been there, seen it (..when I started out, it happened once to me, not twice though). Just figure out how much your music is worth and charge it - the world will get better a better place.


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## José Herring (Jul 7, 2010)

If you're not making any money then you have to really believe in the project. Sounds like you don't. Can't blame the film maker really. If you think the project is terrible then that will come across in your music.

Walk away and if you're going to give your music away do it for a project that in your mind is worth it.


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## The_Controllers (Jul 7, 2010)

Lex @ Wed Jul 07 said:


> ...and you are working with this person, because...??
> 
> Is the movie really that phenomenal?
> 
> ...



Phenomenal is an understatement :wink: I've been through the "scoring scenes from DVD" phase, I just wanted to step it up to actually doing it for a real client. 

Since I don't have anyone to rely on me + me living at home, I don't need the money. However, saying that to a director = one of you pro's not getting paid because I do it for free. Don't want to be in that position in the future when my paying client wanders off to find a kid to write music for free. 

What I really needed was the credit, but it "Sounds like you've gotten all the experience out of this you need and the credit and contacts aren't worth anything."

I think you're absolutely right on that. Thanks.


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## The_Controllers (Jul 7, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Jul 07 said:


> Reasons to do a free / cheap job:
> 
> 2. "Branding" yourself -- director / project / title / actors are very famous
> 
> 3. Clearly it is a production company with lots of work and you will be getting more from them later that WILL pay properly.



But would I be given the opportunity for those gigs without going through the newbie/crap directors?


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## dinerdog (Jul 7, 2010)

While we're at it, perhaps we can save some of your sanity ahead of time. Please watch the Harlan Ellison video until you can repeat it word for word. Then you will be a wise grasshopper:

http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... a56027c19b

Learn early and learn often. : >


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 7, 2010)

Will there be a next project?

Woody Allen is the only successful director I can think of who shows utter contempt for music in his films. And he's a creep in general.


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## The_Controllers (Jul 7, 2010)

LOL @dinerdog, that video is spot on! I think I might have to attach this to every email I dish out. 

@Nick, there will be a next project, but as I posted in my first post, he clearly made it obvious that his next project's music will be royalty free online music.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 7, 2010)

The dude's a douche. Just do what Elfman does all the time now and tell him you can't work on it anymore because of scheduling conflicts. 8) 

This dude's next project will have him sitting around for weeks going through library music and tearing out his hair.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 7, 2010)

To me it sounds like there won't be a next project. Usually competence is a requirement for that, and it sounds like there's a deficiency in that department.


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## midphase (Jul 7, 2010)

Have you ever noticed that 99% of the times, if you actually have to ask "Is this normal" that means it's not?


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## Rob (Jul 7, 2010)

choc0thrax @ 7th July 2010 said:


> ..
> 
> This dude's next project will have him sitting around for weeks going through library music and tearing out his hair.



my thought exactly


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## kid-surf (Jul 11, 2010)

Here's what I found...

I've got more "going on" than EVERY director I've composed for [ghosting doesn't count as I didn't work 'with' a director but 'for' another composer...who shall remain nameless, not a class-A guy]. 

Most directors will NEVER go on to work with a studio despite their hollow ass claims of being brilliant and knowing this or that person or whatever other bullshit they spew. How fucking ironic is it that I got a studio deal and NO director I've worked with has, not one. NO director I've composed for is represented at the hardest agency on the planet to be repped by...and yet I am. NO director I've composed for has taken meetings to develop studio films with the Class-A production companies I have [use your imagination, think of top directors]. NO director I've composed for has been offered a gig by an 800 pound gorilla of a producer, yet I have, ME, "some idiot who writes music". Can you fucking imagine? 

Point: When you know you're smarter than these idiots [directors], it's because you actually ARE. If a dude gives you a bad vibe ["hmmm, this guy seems like a damn fool"], it's because he's IS and is never going to break out, and therefore will never take you with him to the promise land. I became so sick and tired of these hollow claims that I took MYSELF to the promise land and got my own studio deal. [and my deal gives me, an idiot, FULL PRODUCER CREDIT and REAL backend points]

Tip: Do not bend over for a clueless, hack director who doesn't even deserve to call himself a director...it will NEVER lead to anything else. And the credit will be worthless.

"Studio" credits aren't worthless...sometimes you gotta go get your own once you realize most "directors" are too dumb to help facilitate one on your behalf.

Keepin' it real...

Good luck!

p.s. Ditto every other post in this thread...


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