# Game over - meet AIVA



## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 3, 2018)

Just think: it’s going to keep getting better, but at exponential speeds...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 3, 2018)

Yes, AI will at some point be able to mimic everyone's painting-by-numbers-music.

And that's about it.


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## storyteller (Oct 3, 2018)

I get from a technical side what is involved here. But AI will not ever be able to reproduce the intangible aspect of unique individuality of artistic expression. Until it becomes conscious... and at that point, it is no longer AI, for it would be... well... alive. That is also not a mathematical step to gain consciousness, but rather a biological evolution where spirit recognizes itself in creation. This is nowhere near a swift step to occur in terms of years, centuries, millennia. At this point, AI is math and algorithms. And that is it. It is a fancy term for a math problem... and yes, notes can be placed in an order to sound okay with math today. I could program an “AI” concept to do this today... our world has a way of attaching fancy labels to products and making it seem revolutionary. This is quite literally a database of scores, with math built rules based on what it is fed. Super simple to create. Very minimal in what it can do. Fancy words promoting its “revolutionary” creation.

Art is the means by which humans express Love and the stories associated with the journey... which is a concept AI cannot and does not know.


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## lucor (Oct 3, 2018)

Until this thing can also create convincing orchestrations/arrangements, produce a good mockup and then mix and master the whole thing (which I'm pretty sure will never happen), instead of just producing a lifeless piano sketch in form of a midi file that still needs an actual composer to make it into a piece of music, I'm not worried in the slightest way.


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## brenneisen (Oct 3, 2018)

lucor said:


> (which I'm pretty sure will never happen)



you can't be sure about anything, boy


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 3, 2018)

This thing won't be a real composer, until it talks about legato, purchases new string libraries, and procrastinates here in VI Control.


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## LamaRose (Oct 3, 2018)

lucor said:


> Until this thing can also create convincing orchestrations/arrangements, produce a good mockup and then mix and master the whole thing (which I'm pretty sure will never happen), instead of just producing a lifeless piano sketch in form of a midi file that still needs an actual composer to make it into a piece of music, I'm not worried in the slightest way.



Actually, mixing and mastering will be one of the easier aspects for AI... think "match eq" and then imagine going into Logic: create midi project/john williams/raiders of the lost ark/etc... instrument/VST's, arrangement, room, eq/dynamic processing... everything setup and master ready before you even begin recording to achieve that sound.


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## dflood (Oct 3, 2018)

It’s a major step from virtual instrument to virtual composer. Sony’s Flow Machines and others have demonstrated that if you feed enough Bach or Bill Evans into an AI you can (sometimes) get it to generate listenable music in their respective styles. While I think it will be some time (if ever) before anything as new and original as a Bach or Bill Evans actually emerges spontaneously from an AI, it’s very likely that we’ll soon be routinely using these tools as composer’s assistants.

And then there’s the virtual artist. We are already seeing products that don’t simply reproduce the sound of a particular instrument, but mimic the style and signature phrasing of famous players. I can foresee a time when we’ll be able to call up a trumpet VI and select from a range of famous playing styles from Dizzie Gillespie to Al Hirt.


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## blougui (Oct 3, 2018)

AI will through many workers in the gutter, whatever job that’ll be. 
No one seems to seek a real answer to that - no politician at least.In 10 years, we re doomed.


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## storyteller (Oct 3, 2018)

@ka00
You raise some great points. I would add that in Her, the AI advanced to a point of consciousness and not just algorithms. It learned to feel Love and moved beyond three dimensional life. It was already on the cusp of consciousness when it was released. So, while it is a good comparison, I think it further supports the idea that algorithms cannot express Love. Can software become conscious? Sure. But not in the relative timeline. This is the concept behind Skynet and such. But you do raise some good questions to explore.

I would add that algorithms only have the capacity to be derivative and cannot be creative until consciousness occurs. Then again... derivativity is also what got us into the whole mainstream algorithmic/mainstream funk we are presently experiencing. I guess you could argue the mainstream population (and songwriters) are not completely conscious yet either... thus the funk we are in. Ha. But everyone is gradually, groggily waking up, which means less room for derivativity and more room for newness in expression.


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## storyteller (Oct 3, 2018)

blougui said:


> AI will through many workers in the gutter, whatever job that’ll be.
> No one seems to seek a real answer to that - no politician at least.In 10 years, we re doomed.


There is already the capacity to remove the mundane labor via robots. Presently humans are forced to participate in the mundane and become a slave to this prison system. That is all about to change though. The fix is to automate processes. Yes. But it is also to build an infrastructure that supports light and Love; the creatives and creators; the visionaries with the wildest imaginations. This is the challenge. Agenda must be wholly and completely removed... which is scary for most people due to self-preservation mode. Society has to (and will) reach a breaking point when they recognize the absurdity of the situation we are presently in and seek to rectify it. That is what we are all tasked with today.


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## blougui (Oct 3, 2018)

singularity !
I don’t care about love. What I’ld like AI have when they’ll gain power : benevolence, goodwill.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Oct 3, 2018)

The examples sound better and more musical than a fair chunk of the stuff posted here - especially the cripplingly-simple 'epic' stuff* - but I do wonder what the *entire process* looks like, and how much input real humans have in the arranging, orchestration etc. Having great players in a good room helps enormously too.


* I just got a custom placement from writing this exact kind of music, so I'm not immune to criticism


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## NoamL (Oct 3, 2018)

LOL how has no one mentioned yet that the "original piece" he displayed is a straight ripoff of Rey's Theme?


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## igwanna (Oct 3, 2018)

this is very easy to break down and refute.

AIVA calculates by pattern analysis. *patterns* is something already created by humans, AIVA cannot ever evolve past humans, the way humans evolved music by themselves 100K years ago. Evolution comes from creating inexistant things that are often not understood in the begining and then assimilated by society. AIVA cannot create based on pure consciousness of existance. it has to analyse an existing pattern and reproduce it.

no need to be concerned then.


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## NoamL (Oct 3, 2018)

Besides the plagiarism, I'm very skeptical of how far AI can advance with this "MIDI in -> MIDI out" method.

There have been "Regurgi-Bach" programs around for decades. This looks more like a clever scam targeting VC's than an actual improvement in music AI. Take the typical aimless output of a Regurgi-Bach, massage it with the help of a human composer, orchestrator, copyist, and live recording orchestra, and present the final product as a quantum leap to VC's: what if you could make infinite spotify and never pay royalties? Cool, take my money! Oh wait, there still needs to be a credited composer, orchestrator and musicians on each track?

The fact that none of these videos (there was a previous discussion of AIVA on VIC somewhere around here) really dive into the details of how this AI is new and different from the typical Bach Markov chain idea, increases my skepticism too...

AI will advance once you actually give the AI a musical education. However that is expensive, and "30,000+ MIDI files of Mozart & Beethoven" is free. So people will continue with this Markov chain "note predicting" approach. The problem is that approach doesn't have any depth. That's what makes the music sound aimless, because there isn't a TRUE governing structure.

For the expensive approach, we have to start teaching AI from actual sheet music, not a single channel MIDI file with .


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## NoamL (Oct 3, 2018)

Here's a more accurate representation of what AIVA makes - one of its actual published pieces:



aimless

harmonic language is severely limited

uninspired


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## ka00 (Oct 3, 2018)

igwanna said:


> this is very easy to break down and refute.
> 
> AIVA calculates by pattern analysis. *patterns* is something already created by humans, AIVA cannot ever evolve past humans, the way humans evolved music by themselves 100K years ago. Evolution comes from creating inexistant things that are often not understood in the begining and then assimilated by society. AIVA cannot create based on pure consciousness of existance. it has to analyse an existing pattern and reproduce it.
> 
> no need to be concerned then.



Except, I would ask how much of what professional musicians are asked to create in exchange for money is actually expected to be groundbreaking/novel/innovative?

Usually craftspeople are asked to make something like something else that already exists. Something with a Danny Elfman vibe, or a Hans Zimmer vibe, etc. Something that sounds like the temp track. Something that reminds of such and such movie or game.

I'm not a professional musician, so others can chime in, but I would guess that requests for soundalikes account for the vast majority of musical output for hire. And the number of projects where you get to truly express your originality and make a work of art are probably too few to subsist on.

So, for the remaining 90% of scenarios, there's AIVA (or whatever comes out next year).

Who knows, maybe eventually enough people in enough industries will be affected by AI displacing workers that there will be boycotts proposed for things made by AI. "100% proudly human-made" etc, could be a marketing distinction in the future, the way that everything in the high-end restaurant industry is labeled artisanal or organic, etc. "We start from the ripe perfection of an AIVA track, and then bring in a flawed human to add some pattern-breaking flourishes and out-of-tuneness."


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## gregh (Oct 3, 2018)

AI will have the same advantages tech has already - huge amounts of marketing, massive industry backing. People will adjust to like AI music "as if" it is great music. It won't just be AI that is being trained. 
Marvel or DC - which is the greatest?


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## gregh (Oct 3, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Here's a more accurate representation of what AIVA makes - one of its actual published pieces:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no-one does hype better/more extremely than the IT tech industries. Worse than realestate and used cars


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## Vik (Oct 3, 2018)

Some times really small changes in a composition or performance can make a huge difference. And since a computer can't feel, it can't feel something about small musical changes either, or apply this ideas in the piece. Besides, humans don't always feel the same thing, so even pieces written by an inspired composer won't necessarily trigger something in all listeners either.

Sometimes, when I listen to music, I get this (possibly false) feeling that the composer/performers didn't feel anything when they made the piece either, and/or that the piece sounds like a copy or unnecessary variation of something that has been made already.

I'd be more impressed if someone could find a way to help humans creating more original/inspiring piecesM music which does not sound like copies, than if a guy finds a way to make machines copy or create variations of something someone already has made. And given the fact that many talented composers already are struggling, why would someone be interested in replacing hand made compositions in film/games/general with something made by an algorithm (besides money/fame)?

If there's one single thing the music industry needs right now, it's that music will sound less, and not more robotic.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 3, 2018)

NoamL said:


> LOL how has no one mentioned yet that the "original piece" he displayed is a straight ripoff of Rey's Theme?


More accurate: "Rey's Theme" put through a mangler and made a bit weird and inhuman.
I always try to be open minded about things like this, but this video has come around once before. It's a bit smoke and mirrors.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 3, 2018)

So the moral of the story is for everyone to develop their own voice.

I have nothing against derivative music - in fact my ASCAP publishing co. is named that! - but there are already lots of humans who can do what AIVA does. There's no one else with your unique point of view, however, and that's why music will always be the soul of humanity.

By the way, fuck AIVA. It's offensive.


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## dzilizzi (Oct 3, 2018)

I think AI is a great helper. There are some good themes going in that song, but then it goes into something that doesn't fit, that also sounds okay. But doesn't fit. It definitely needs a human touch to make it work. I don't see AI doing music on its own for a while.


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## storyteller (Oct 3, 2018)

I'll put this here. Great show if you haven't seen it.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 3, 2018)

ka00 said:


> Except, I would ask how much of what professional musicians are asked to create in exchange for money is actually expected to be groundbreaking/novel/innovative?


Exactly. In the effort to try and make a little dough, I try to sound as non-innovative as (humanly) possible.

So, welcome to the wonderful world of library music, new competitor AIVA!


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## Kardon (Oct 3, 2018)

And library music will be one of the first categories to be taken over by this. Shorter bits and pieces where themes and development aren't always needed or as important. But just imagine where this tech will be in 10 or 20 years. Your phone will probably spit this stuff out based on the conversation you just had.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 3, 2018)

Maybe I can get a job bringing AIVA coffee. Or compressed air. Or maybe I could fan its hot processors.


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## MichalCielecki (Oct 4, 2018)

Funny, I just imagined a world where film and game companies don't go to a composer because it's "too expensive", they tell the AI what they need and go straight to the orchestra recording session with the conductor's score and instrument parts done in 15 minutes.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 4, 2018)

What’s an “orchestra”? 

Ohhhhh-you mean that group of highly developed, AI driven multi-articulation instrument models that output the composition in real-time.


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## Harzmusic (Oct 4, 2018)

Kardon said:


> And library music will be one of the first categories to be taken over by this. Shorter bits and pieces where themes and development aren't always needed or as important.


That was my first thought too. This will not replace musical excellence (not yet anyway), but could soon have an impact on the possibility to earn a living with mass amounts of mediocrity. I can imagine many branches of our industry going under with this technology. Espescially the numbers game of library music might be eliminated in the forseeable future.


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 4, 2018)

gregh said:


> no-one does hype better/more extremely than the IT tech industries. Worse than realestate and used cars


Seems too heavily based on traditional music theory. I'd like to see it do a Pierrot Lunaire (Schoenberg), Rite of Spring (Stravinsky) or Daphnis Et Chloe (Ravel)....or pretty much any good music with emotion. I'd like to see it create a melody comparable to the best of Tchaikovsky. Try to write something like Wagner's Parsifal, or Tristan and Isolde?
How about some Brian Eno? Yeah, trying to get the AI to do that would probably cause it to self-destruct.

When it comes to genereric music....we'll all have to just outdo this AI crap by using our own AI and call it our own 
Otherwise, just write from your heart and there is nothing to worry about. 






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKw5mbcE7VY


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## chimuelo (Oct 4, 2018)

Think of how many frustrated musicians cannot finish a sketch.
That’s who they’re targeting. And using AI insinuates that only a highly evolved artificial intelligence can assist you, because you’re so good. 
Who’s going to know AI came to the rescue.
Brilliant marketing.


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## C M Dess (Oct 4, 2018)

When will it get sued for copying likeness of other composers by the mob that runs the business in the US. :D

These days are a perfect storm scenario in just about every aspect of a world crumbling apart.

I don't even know what the hell to do at all these days, should I even put pants on or will that go horribly wrong, AI take over pants scenario.

Life, you hurt, you hurt me.

At least the only thing I can be sure of is I'm wrong, always. No matter which direction I choose. It's the one constant I can have faith in.


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## CT (Oct 4, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Here's a more accurate representation of what AIVA makes - one of its actual published pieces:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Enjoy getting destroyed by AIVA when she becomes sentient. 

I think this is wonderful music!


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 4, 2018)

miket said:


> Enjoy getting destroyed by AIVA when she becomes sentient.
> 
> I think this is wonderful music!


Enjoyable enough, but it's like it's straight out of the classical era. My least favorite era. I much more enjoy music written 400 years earlier 
Which reminds me, good luck getting AI to write something on par with Mechaut's work


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## CT (Oct 4, 2018)

I was just trying to be nice to AIVA.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 4, 2018)

NoamL said:


> aimless
> 
> harmonic language is severely limited
> 
> uninspired



The thing is that we evolve in a linear fashion, but AI is evolving exponentially. Doubling in computing power almost yearly now, just think of what it will compose in 10 years?


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## CT (Oct 4, 2018)

Yeah... if this is the equivalent of a kid composing at five years old or something, I would definitely reserve judgement until I hear what the "adult" does.

Anyway, I'm not worried by any of this as a composer, however it plays out. Maybe some day there will be computers making decent music and people will take advantage of that, making it even more difficult to find steady work. That doesn't feel much different to me than realizing that there are probably at least a few new composers born every day. It's just more competition.


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## SergeD (Oct 4, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I'd like to see it do a Pierrot Lunaire (Schoenberg), Rite of Spring (Stravinsky) or Daphnis Et Chloe (Ravel)



It won't happen, average listeners don't listen to that kind of music, so for producers there is no money to earn there. 



dzilizzi said:


> I think AI is a great helper.



You mean AI is a great killer, producers will love it and leave composers croak into starvation.


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## dzilizzi (Oct 4, 2018)

SergeD said:


> You mean AI is a great killer, producers will love it and leave composers croak into starvation.


You still need a composer to put it together, because on its own, it kind of sucks. Like a kid who just learned an instrument and is mashing stuff together. Parts sound great. Together it is awful. Just like in EDM - I may be able to throw a bunch of loops together and it may sound okay, but you won't hear it at any club who appreciates EDM music. To do it right, you have to know what loops sound right together to get the feeling you want. And that might be the key. AI doesn't feel. A small change can cause a big change in how the song feels.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 4, 2018)

Again, be patient. In the meantime, I look forward to using AI as an assistant, composing sketches while I sleep to surprise me each morning...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 4, 2018)

I don't see that as a supporting tool, Ned, I see it as supplanting the human soul!

Or at least trying to do that.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 4, 2018)

Tools be tools.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 4, 2018)

Until we be tools!


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## C M Dess (Oct 4, 2018)

No cure for baldness. Where the fuck is AI on that shit....haha. . .No more humans, cure for baldness...ah, never mind.


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## Kardon (Oct 4, 2018)

As for AIVA, take a listen to their Soundcloud playlist (on Youtube too). Much of it is surprisingly "good", or good enough to have some commercial value. As it improves it certainly will be. AIVA is a subscription hosted service which just outputs the MIDI today, so all of the resulting performances are orchestrated and produced (most probably with a few or many modifications to the actual score). AIVA bills itself as a tool, an aid to composers and the creative process. Your input is a style or genre of music, or a temp track, or your own theme or sketch. You specify how similar you want the output to sound, and that's it. You can use the resulting music as you like. Cut/paste/compose/arrange/orchestrate/produce. As *dizilizzi* said, you still need a composer to put it all together, but that will most likely change within our lifetimes. AIVA isn't the only player in this space, so from this to harmony assistants to chord progression builders, these tools abound and will continue to get better.

This AIVA video shows the workflow and resulting piece as orchestrated in Sibelius and the VST rendered result. It's not bad, but it had a lot of creative human touch to get there.


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## Pudge (Oct 4, 2018)

Type AIVA into google and its already released 2 albums this year...


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## Pudge (Oct 4, 2018)

OH. And the release date is 2019...

So for $599 a year you'll be able to have a subscription plan which lets you use this tech to create as many tracks as you like, that can be use commercially.

Its a weird one, on the positive it's be a good tool for people learning to orchestrate. But on a negative its going to bring around a new age of 'composers' who pay $599 a year to create and sell loads of music on stock sites. Then you have the issue of production companies completely side stepping composers and using AI because its way cheaper.


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## gregh (Oct 4, 2018)

Pudge said:


> OH. And the release date is 2019...
> 
> So for $599 a year you'll be able to have a subscription plan which lets you use this tech to create as many tracks as you like, that can be use commercially.
> 
> Its a weird one, on the positive it's be a good tool for people learning to orchestrate. But on a negative its going to bring around a new age of 'composers' who pay $599 a year to create and sell loads of music on stock sites. Then you have the issue of production companies completely side stepping composers and using AI because its way cheaper.


bring in a player for the day to improv solo to the AIVA tracks for a bit of the human element and you are done. You could have a string day, a brass day, a woodwind day, a piano day etc and churn out humanised tracks by the hundreds for very little money


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 5, 2018)

I think we're overlooking quite a bit here.

What about live music and instruments? So far, as far as I know, AI can only really work through MIDI --sure, there are some cool self playing instruments that have been made. But I'm not sure how well they can compose (if at all) or how much emotion they play with.
What about all of that "happy, dippidity, smiley, slappy" ukulele music? (which I think is even more popular than any orchestral music --on stock sites at least).
Hip Hop Music? Indie Rock? Rock and Roll in general? Jazz? Vocal music in general? (songs)

Really the only thing that AIVA and other similar AI creators do pretty well is orchestral and symphonic style music. There are a vast number of genres which are just not in the AI wheelhouse, and probably won't be for some time (if ever).
So if you want to prepare for the coming AI music apocalypse, here's what you do:

Learn to play an instrument (guitar, ukulele, etc.)
Learn to sing -->....And Write songs (Folk, Indie, Rock, etc.)
Learn genres of music which are not easily replicated by AI (Jazz, Hip-Hop, Ambient, Horror, etc.)
Learn sound design (another thing in which AI will be lacking for some time).

I don't think all things exceptional, unique or "ground-breaking" are always avant-garde in themselves, but sometimes it's about the context. Understanding context and making adjustments is another thing in which AI will fall short. 
Just because the average listener doesn't need something better than could be created by AIVI, doesn't mean creating something better is futile. Good enough is not good enough.

So one thing in looking at it as a tool, is to simply use it to help you generate ideas, and then do your darndest to inject a human element into it (be it live instruments, de-quantizing the MIDI a little, re-arranging the MIDI to be more creative and fit your aesthetic, recording live vocals, and so on). 

All is not lost.


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## gregh (Oct 5, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> All is not lost.



AI has zero impact on what I do except if I want to exploit it. But there is only a tiny market for what I get paid for and that market is never going to find AI replacing people - or at least not in my lifetime


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