# What constitutes "stealing" when writing?



## AtlasMusic (May 22, 2020)

I was working on a piece and something about a wind run sounded a little too familiar. I ended up remembering where it was from and its maybe 70% the same, the start and end notes are the same, the rhythm and note lengths are a little different. My worry is that it is somewhat of a "featured part" in my passage as well as theirs. Its maybe 7 seconds long and the rest of the piece are 100% completely different. Backing chords underneath are different, nothing is similar except that run.


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## José Herring (May 22, 2020)

AtlasMusic said:


> I was working on a piece and something about a wind run sounded a little too familiar. I ended up remembering where it was from and its maybe 70% the same, the start and end notes are the same, the rhythm and note lengths are a little different. My worry is that it is somewhat of a "featured part" in my passage as well as theirs. Its maybe 7 seconds long and the rest of the piece are 100% completely different. Backing chords underneath are different, nothing is similar except that run.


No need to really worry about that.


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## purple (May 22, 2020)

AtlasMusic said:


> I was working on a piece and something about a wind run sounded a little too familiar. I ended up remembering where it was from and its maybe 70% the same, the start and end notes are the same, the rhythm and note lengths are a little different. My worry is that it is somewhat of a "featured part" in my passage as well as theirs. Its maybe 7 seconds long and the rest of the piece are 100% completely different. Backing chords underneath are different, nothing is similar except that run.


There are only so many scales...


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## purple (May 22, 2020)

Don't worry about stealing, the "big boys" do it wayyyy more than any of us ever will. And a lot of clients want you to steal anyways!


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## AtlasMusic (May 22, 2020)

Yeah thats what a friend told me. I am definitely over worrying about it. thanks @purple !


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## CT (May 22, 2020)

Getting caught.


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## thevisi0nary (May 22, 2020)

This happens way more than most people realize and it's almost unpreventable on some level. I used to *really really* obsess over this but it's not worth it or necessary, so don't stress yourself out about it. There is a difference between subconsciously referencing something and outright taking or adapting a piece (and even then, sometimes people still somehow make it original). 

If you notice something that's really similar, change it up until you feel better about it.


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## Consona (May 23, 2020)

Just listen to the long dead guys so nobody can sue you when you accidentally create something similar.


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## jcrosby (May 23, 2020)

Good artists borrow. Great artists steal.








Led Zeppelin - The greatest cover band of all time ?

Some of the music actually is questionable given the history of blues... The lyrics aren't as open to interpretation though, and it's pretty shady they credited themselves as writers and lyricists with no credit where credit was due... (Then again this is the story of pop music...)


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## thevisi0nary (May 23, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Good artists borrow. Great artists steal.
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I wouldn’t even say this is the best example though, cause you could argue that he intentionally repurposed songs (for better or worse). That doesn’t apply to the vast amount of songs that are similar simply because you arrive there when trying to adhere to a structure. Gymnopedie no 1 has been recreated endless times, but many of the people who did so probably never even heard that song.

There’s two flawed arguments I hear a lot,

1. “There’s an infinite amount of note combinations and structures”. No, there really isn’t if you aren’t trying to purposely make abstract avante garde music, and you want to make a melody that is harmonically “pleasing” (in context to what people have come to like).

2. “There’s only 12 notes”. That’s true but it’s really only a small part of the picture, without taking style conventions into consideration. If a thousand people each year decide they want to make somber piano piece with a slow tempo and jazzy 7th chords, a few of them are probably gonna write something very similar to Gymnopedie no 1. Some of them might do it because they’ve heard it before, others might do it because they were trying to achieve a similar thing, and used western music conventions to get there.


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## purple (May 23, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Good artists borrow. Great artists steal.
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Nobody tell 'em about john williams!


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## jcrosby (May 23, 2020)

thevisi0nary said:


> I wouldn’t even say this is the best example though, cause you could argue that he intentionally repurposed songs (for better or worse). That doesn’t apply to the vast amount of songs that are similar simply because you arrive there when trying to adhere to a structure. Gymnopedie no 1 has been recreated endless times, but many of the people who did so probably never even heard that song.
> 
> There’s two flawed arguments I hear a lot,
> 
> ...


Like I said a lot of it is open to interpretation. I actually don't take the whole thing too seriously. Especially given the anothology of blues... Ultimately I just wanted to take a jab at Led Zeppelin as the greatest cover band of all time ;-p

That said there is an argument for plagiarism to be made in taking sole credit for the work in cases where the music is identical, (Balckwaterside).

Carry on...


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## jsg (Jun 4, 2020)

AtlasMusic said:


> I was working on a piece and something about a wind run sounded a little too familiar. I ended up remembering where it was from and its maybe 70% the same, the start and end notes are the same, the rhythm and note lengths are a little different. My worry is that it is somewhat of a "featured part" in my passage as well as theirs. Its maybe 7 seconds long and the rest of the piece are 100% completely different. Backing chords underneath are different, nothing is similar except that run.



Legally speaking, I believe the definition of stealing refers to when there are seven notes or more in sequence that are identical in pitch and rhythm to another melody that uses those same 7 pitches with the same rhythm--this constitutes copyright infringement, which, legally speaking, is stealing. Of course music is more than melody and rhythm, there's timbre, harmony, harmonic progression, dynamics, articulation and arrangement, so from an artistic and intellectual perspective we all steal, borrow, pay tribute, paraphrase or quote in some way or another. Still, some composers mange to sound more original and other composers less so.

I was scoring an animated TV series for several years and was called upon to arrange numerous folk songs and nursery rhymes. Each time I checked with the producer's assistant to make sure there was no copyright issues in terms of me creating an arrangement. One day I was assigned to arrange "Happy Birthday", and mistakenly assumed there was no copyright on a melody that is sung at nearly every birthday party so I didn't contact the person who verifies this kind of thing. After the show aired the copyright holder's lawyers contacted the producer of our show and said take it off the air or pay us. My boss didn't want to pay so I ended up creating a birthday tune that wasn't the well-known copyrighted version. Taking a well-known tune and changing all the pitches might make it legal, but it is not going to every go over very well! I wish the producer had just paid the fee..

Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com


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## rudi (Jun 4, 2020)

Also make sure you don't leave 4′33 (or less) of silence in your music (and don't credit Cage): 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/09/30/silence-is-beholden


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## d.healey (Jun 5, 2020)

jsg said:


> Legally speaking, I believe the definition of stealing refers to when there are seven notes or more in sequence


You could have one note in your piece and be accused of copyright infringement. Or if you're John Cage you can copyright silence.





> --this constitutes copyright infringement, which, legally speaking, is stealing.


Copyright infringement is not stealing. Copyright infringement is... copyright infringement and is usually a civil matter, stealing is usually a criminal matter.



> One day I was assigned to arrange "Happy Birthday", and mistakenly assumed there was no copyright on a melody ... I wish the producer had just paid the fee..


A few years ago Warner's copyright claim was ruled to be invalid and they had to reimburse a lot of people they'd been claiming fees from. It turned out they only held copyright on a particular arrangement of the melody and not the melody itself.


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## jsg (Jun 5, 2020)

d.healey said:


> You could have one note in your piece and be accused of copyright infringement. Or if you're John Cage you can copyright silence.
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> ...





I don't believe it's possible to copyright one note. Please give an example of where this is true. Also, stealing, in the artistic sense is not a "criminal matter". It's an artistic issue and, occasionally turned into a legal issue. When somebody claims copyright infringement, the claim is that their work has been stolen, hence they take the matter to civil court. Yes, stealing a car is a criminal issue. But using material from another creative work is copyright infringement and, as you pointed out is usually a civil dispute, not a criminal one.


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## jsg (Jun 5, 2020)

d.healey said:


> A few years ago Warner's copyright claim was ruled to be invalid and they had to reimburse a lot of people they'd been claiming fees from. It turned out they only held copyright on a particular arrangement of the melody and not the melody itself.



Are you referring to the tune "Happy Birthday"? I wonder how the court's reasoning went...


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## d.healey (Jun 5, 2020)

jsg said:


> I don't believe it's possible to copyright one note. Please give an example of where this is true.


Did you see the video? Bending a D note up and down by itself is owned by Jack Black now. It's not the number of notes but what you do with them.

First minute of Why So Serious from the Dark Knight it essentially one note on an electric cello with a bit of distortion.




jsg said:


> Are you referring to the tune "Happy Birthday"? I wonder how the court's reasoning went...


Yes. The courts ruled against Warner. Cost them about $15M. There's a documentary about it. The reasoning was that Warner was wrong, they never had the copyright on the tune in the first place, they'd made a mistake and misunderstood their rights.


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## jsg (Jun 5, 2020)

Thanks for letting me know. I am glad to hear it.


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## jsg (Jun 5, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Did you see the video? Bending a D note up and down by itself is owned by Jack Black now. It's not the number of notes but what you do with them.
> 
> First minute of Why So Serious from the Dark Knight it essentially one note on an electric cello with a bit of distortion.
> 
> ...





Yikes. That's pretty extreme. But has anybody actually been sued for bending a D? I can't believe that would stand up in court. Blues and rock guitarists have been bending their notes for decades.. 

In Bach's time if a composer took a pre-existing melody or theme and made variations on it, the composer whose work was used would be honored. Today we sue each other. Maybe things are going too far?


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## Gene Pool (Jun 5, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Yes. The courts ruled against Warner. Cost them about $15M. There's a documentary about it. The reasoning was that Warner was wrong, they never had the copyright on the tune in the first place, they'd made a mistake and misunderstood their rights.



I doubt they misunderstood anything. They employ some of the best IP attorneys on the planet. They were just doing what they thought they could get by with.


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## GNP (Jun 5, 2020)

When you find yourself gleaming with glee and mischievousness.


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## d.healey (Jun 5, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> I doubt they misunderstood anything. They employ some of the best IP attorneys on the planet. They were just doing what they thought they could get by with.


I think you're almost certainly right about that. But I don't think that was the court's reasoning


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## d.healey (Jun 5, 2020)

jsg said:


> But has anybody actually been sued for bending a D?


It's not bending a D that is copyrighted. The notes don't really matter, it could be a G, or an F#. It's the context in which it is used. The famous Jaws theme is two notes, a trill is two notes, but they are not the same thing... context is everything.



> In Bach's time if a composer took a pre-existing melody or theme and made variations on it, the composer whose work was used would be honored. Today we sue each other. Maybe things are going too far?


Things have gone way too far. Copyright (as written in the US constitution) is intended as a time limited monopoly to promote the progress of art and science and "protect" the rights of artists. Nowadays it's used by publishers as a restriction on artists and the general public greatly limiting progress. As has been said by others, if the copyright laws of today existed in Shakespeare's time we wouldn't have Romeo and Juliet.


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## Consona (Jun 5, 2020)

jsg said:


> In Bach's time if a composer took a pre-existing melody or theme and made variations on it, the composer whose work was used would be honored. Today we sue each other. Maybe things are going too far?


It's about the whole worldview. In the ancient Greece, the poets acted as like some supernatural force gave them those rhymes. Which was partly a self-defence, if some tyrant said he does not like what he's saying, the poet'd say it's from the muses, not him; but more importantly, they lived in a very theistic world, and they did not attribute their work solely to their own creativity. And if those ideas are not yours, then where's the problem if someone else uses them...

Now imagine some christian who truly believes those ideas are from God (and I know at least one composer who believes this), he sees the whole process as he just writes down what God has put into his mind. The same thing, those ideas are not his, they are from the above, and so,... etc., etc.

But now, when some people are raised as truly independent individuals? They see all those things they do as their things or things others create as those of the others. Every single person is the originator of their art. They are very sensitive when they hear anything that's similar to something else they've heard. Hence, John Williams is a thief and this and that...

And you don't have to be a theist or anything to say it's not "your" creation. Just deny free will and nothing ever is your creation. 


Just a simplistic musing on the subject...


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## Gene Pool (Jun 5, 2020)

Disney has done more than anyone to screw up copyright law.


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## jsg (Jun 5, 2020)

d.healey said:


> It's not bending a D that is copyrighted. The notes don't really matter, it could be a G, or an F#. It's the context in which it is used. The famous Jaws theme is two notes, a trill is two notes, but they are not the same thing... context is everything.
> 
> 
> Things have gone way too far. Copyright (as written in the US constitution) is intended as a time limited monopoly to promote the progress of art and science and "protect" the rights of artists. Nowadays it's used by publishers as a restriction on artists and the general public greatly limiting progress. As has been said by others, if the copyright laws of today existed in Shakespeare's time we wouldn't have Romeo and Juliet.




Exactly. Not only copyright law, but capitalism itself has gone way too far. That's why we have pharmaceutical companies and fossil fuel companies owning Congress and why the Supreme Court is owned by corporate interests. It's why we're mining and extracting every last ounce of oil, rare minerals, coal and other resources from the earth. It's all gone way too far. The profit motive is dominating every human value that sustains civilization and advances culture and we cannot depend on government to regulate, limit, constrain or otherwise reign in unenlightened self-interest. It's going to take a mighty effort to change this destructive mind-set and God knows there are many people trying...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 5, 2020)

I see it like this....everything has already been written. We are merely recycling the music into our own interpretations. And no matter which way you slice it, your influences will show. I don't believe there is such thing as being completely original in this day in age....it's all been done a million times already. It's up to us it give it our own "magical dust".


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## jsg (Jun 5, 2020)

I actually believe there is only one music in the entire cosmos. Every musician is doing their best to hear and interpret that music through their own cultural, emotional, intellectual and personal experience. Though I believe that every single human being is unique in their own personality, for that uniqueness to come through in their music, and why it does or does not, is probably one of the great mysteries of music.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 5, 2020)

jsg said:


> I actually believe there is only one music in the entire cosmos. Every musician is doing their best to hear and interpret that music through their own cultural, emotional, intellectual and personal experience. Though I believe that every single human being is unique in their own personality, for that uniqueness to come through in their music, and why it does or does not, is probably one of the great mysteries of music.



Yes, agree 100%!


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## orwollgf194 (Jun 19, 2020)

Has anyone ever written a song then realized (before recording/performing/releasing it ofc) that they accidentally completely ripped off a pre-existing song? I've "written" a Beatles chorus, "Star of the County Down" & background music from "Toy Story" lol. Definitely one of my biggest fears as a composer.


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## tav.one (Jun 19, 2020)

I want to know, what are some of the best responses when you play to someone and they say "that sounds just like XYZ" (when you know it does not). I tend to panic a little and go all technical on how both are very different, but I'm sure there are better ways to handle situations like this.


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## orwollgf194 (Jun 19, 2020)

tav.one said:


> I want to know, what are some of the best responses when you play to someone and they say "that sounds just like XYZ" (when you know it does not). I tend to panic a little and go all technical on how both are very different, but I'm sure there are better ways to handle situations like this.


I get the same feeling! "Uhhh how much does it sound like XYZ..? Too much??" Then I'll compare their chords progressions with mine..

I guess I wouldn't worry as much about how to respond as I would about whether I have to change my composition to avoid a lawsuit...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 19, 2020)

orwollgf194 said:


> Has anyone ever written a song then realized (before recording/performing/releasing it ofc) that they accidentally completely ripped off a pre-existing song? I've "written" a Beatles chorus, "Star of the County Down" & background music from "Toy Story" lol. Definitely one of my biggest fears as a composer.



Yep. I’ve also blatantly ripped off my own music.....realizing I have the exact same chord progressions.


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## jsg (Jun 19, 2020)

tav.one said:


> I want to know, what are some of the best responses when you play to someone and they say "that sounds just like XYZ" (when you know it does not). I tend to panic a little and go all technical on how both are very different, but I'm sure there are better ways to handle situations like this.



It depends upon who is saying it. If it's somebody with little or no musical training, just assume they're trying to find a reference point for their listening skills and it well be more about their listening abilities than your music. On the other hand, if someone who is a really keen listener points out something specific, say "At measure 22 when the bassoon comes in playing that high C it reminds me of Stravinsky's use of the bassoon" or that two-note motive reminds me of the movie "Jaws", well, then I'd give some thought about using my materials a bit differently and see if I can come up with something that has something new in it. Originality is not an all-or-nothing affair. It's usually in degrees, after all, most of us (not all) are working with the same 12 notes using the same tuning system and often the same instruments. There will always be snippets of the old in something new...

Also, remember that for most people, at least here in the U.S., orchestra music = film music; in other words their only, or main exposure to orchestral music is with film cues and background music for TV, film or games. How to respond? That's up to you, how you feel about the person, how you'd like to be treated if the roles were reversed...

If you're worried about a lawsuit over copyright infringement that's an entirely different matter...


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## ryans (Jun 19, 2020)

tav.one said:


> I want to know, what are some of the best responses when you play to someone and they say "that sounds just like XYZ" (when you know it does not). I tend to panic a little and go all technical on how both are very different, but I'm sure there are better ways to handle situations like this.



You just gotta keep arguing! Get MORE technical. Harass them with every possible detail.. and eventually they will realize that it does in fact sound different! And they love it!


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## jsg (Jun 19, 2020)

orwollgf194 said:


> I get the same feeling! "Uhhh how much does it sound like XYZ..? Too much??" Then I'll compare their chords progressions with mine..
> 
> I guess I wouldn't worry as much about how to respond as I would about whether I have to change my composition to avoid a lawsuit...




When someone said to Brahms that one of his symphonic themes sounded like Beethoven's, Brahms reply was "Any ass knows that!".


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## Polkasound (Jun 19, 2020)

When I write music, I never crank the gears in my brain to create melody lines that instantly flow, because I don't trust they'll be original. I work on maybe a couple measures at a time. I'll start playing chords and searching for the next few notes, and then the next few notes, and the next few notes... until I have a melody forming from seemingly random ideas pieces together.

During this process, familiar-sounding ideas still always come up. If I can identify what song a familiar idea came from, I may choose to borrow and use it if it's small enough. If I can't identify what song it's from, I'll change it until that sense of familiarity has diminished to a comfortable level.


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## orwollgf194 (Jun 19, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Yep. I’ve also blatantly ripped off my own music.....realizing I have the exact same chord progressions.


Haha same actually!! I mean, there are endless musical possibilities out there but sometimes the brain is simply lazy...


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