# Orchestral motion



## borisb2 (May 14, 2021)

If we say rhythm in a melody is almost more important than pitch (both go together of course), why is it that about melody and harmony there is a gazillion analysis available but analysis of rhythm is a lot harder to find?

I‘m reading at the moment McKays Creative Orchestration and he is pointing out exactly that imbalance.

We know punctuated gives adventure and triplet swings .. but there is a lot more. Where can I study this?


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## Stringtree (May 14, 2021)

I found this today, and it solidified some truths.

The thing I want to write is people singing together, but with instruments.

The more I can write individual lines working with other individual lines, I don't have to think about much else. Harmony is not a passive detective work analysis after the fact, but an evolving lifeform.

Rhythm springs out of this as individual parts, like you'd sing and slap your thigh on a bus. Joining them together forms a fabric.

I hope this helps. I guess I just had an a-ha moment. YMMV.


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## borisb2 (May 14, 2021)

Thanks for the link - but is that related to rhythm?


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## Stringtree (May 14, 2021)

I'd say yes. When individual voices are what is being written, rhythm is no longer chord-based, but voice-based. 

Consider a churchy four-voice thing. If I were to approach that as a chord thing, it would be, "Chonk, chonk-a chonk Chonkkkkk." 

Considered as four voices, it becomes "Chonk-chonka chonk chonk - chonk. (rest) chonka chonka chonk chonk chonk (rest). 

And so on. Now move to the second voice. You have rhythm, and jamming along with some percussion fills in the gaps. People singing together. The sound of a light drum. 

I'm just saying that this particular video collided with my new way and I'm over the moon. I get the "Sound on Sound" aspects of composition like never before. 

Rhythm and melody, I don't think can be distilled out and mean anything. They're interdependent, so what I believe can be understood is the bounce and the timbre and the frequencies involved and the context. 

Yeah, I think harmony is related to rhythm in a fundamental way. It's just a different way to approach composing. I seriously don't have any solutions for you, just am really happy about what is working, over time, for me!


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> I found this today, and it solidified some truths.
> 
> The thing I want to write is people singing together, but with instruments.
> 
> ...



I don't think smooth voice leading is the answer for anything other than smooth voice leading.

Using it as a tool for smooth voice leading produces a certain sound, and I'd only reach for that tool if that's the sound you're looking for.

I don't really understand why he refers to this as a "higher level of harmony" - paying attention to your voice leading is not really part of harmony - that's a part of arranging. I've never have any of the problems he discusses, and I love harmony. If there was ever a video I disagree with almost universally - it's that one.

No less ironic that I got into choral music at the same time as theory(literally only started singing because of sight reading being required in theory) Wrote a lot of chorales to sing with my chorus friends, and also focused on limited instruments for arrangements due to my early compositions being for either 2 guitars and bass, or midi with only a few tracks. 

I feel like this guy saw one device and thought that was the epitome of music. That device creates one specific flavor, and that's it. Not only does the alternative end up being just as valid musically, but depending on the instrument it really doesn't work the same. On a string instrument, the leap of a half step or the leap of a minor 6th is about the same. He mentions Wagner's tristan chord, but not the fact that the entire rest of his repitoire doesn't follow that same kind of rule or anything. You think people hum that, or ride of the valkryie? Ya know the one with a monophonic melody backed by block chords?

Sorry, I saw that video the other day, and since it got brought up here, I figured I'd try to avoid the OP being confused by that and let lose the rant I'd had no real incentive to make prior.


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## Stringtree (May 14, 2021)

My apologies. I'm not a very good composer and just trying to find my way toward longer pieces. I get overly excited sometimes about ideas that are presented and share my new enthusiasm. I respectfully withdraw.


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## borisb2 (May 14, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> Rhythm and melody, I don't think can be distilled out and mean anything. They're interdependent, so what I believe can be understood is the bounce and the timbre and the frequencies involved and the context.


true .. but if I tap in front of my son: tap tap tap tap ta tap tap ta tap .. he instantly says imperial march.. bingo! .. if I sing only the correpsonding three notes without thythm .. silence 

and to have more complex rhythmic devices (punctuated for adventure is probably the most simple example) was my goal .. maybe I'm overthinking


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## borisb2 (May 14, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> My apologies. I'm not a very good composer and just trying to find my way toward longer pieces. I get overly excited sometimes about ideas that are presented and share my new enthusiasm. I respectfully withdraw.


dont withdraw  ... "trying to find my way toward longer pieces" is another big topic for sure - will give that video a listen!


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> My apologies. I'm not a very good composer and just trying to find my way toward longer pieces. I get overly excited sometimes about ideas that are presented and share my new enthusiasm. I respectfully withdraw.


new ideas and devices are ALWAYS great to add to the palette, but everything is contrast.

I don't dislike the information, if you want to explore the movement of smooth voice leading, check out 

It just erks me when people present ideas like that as if they'd just found music-jesus and try to teach it that way, because it's REALLY easy to confuse people who are new.

again, the idea of creating a passage using smooth voice leading and 3-4 rhythmically independent parts is fine, but it has a particular sound - and it'll produce that particular sound.



this is an iconic work; in piano form - but the orchestration works the exact same way.

harmony : only arpeggiated in the bass with a straight forward accompaniment.
melody: planing chords.

these chords leap together in the same gestures together, creating it's own texture - completely contradictory to the chopin/wagner example used in that video. Infact the guy in the video you posted basically mocks this when talking about monks singing and the 'discovery' of polyphony. Not to mention the chopin piece AND the wagner piece completely contradict the concept of 4 independent lines, as they are both monorythmic. 

This along with any "rules" you learn - don't fall into the trap of being too strict. If you learn a "rule" about harmony/melody, the FIRST thing you should do is break it, and figure out what that sound is, because it's probably equally useful. 

A great example is what I'd posted with tchaikovsky - the reason they tell you not to voice parallel 5ths/octaves or part-writing overly parallel is because it'll sound like they are the same line. 

voila, they are the same line - and that's a different sound.


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## Stringtree (May 14, 2021)

It would crush me if this was my last game with you dudes. People make mistakes. I'm interested in the topic, and evolving as a practitioner. Please don't write me off. I'm just throwing dice, and how many hours do I spend doing this? I really care about it. I'm sure it'll be okay in the morning.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> It would crush me if this was my last game with you dudes. People make mistakes. I'm interested in the topic, and evolving as a practitioner. Please don't write me off. I'm just throwing dice, and how many hours do I spend doing this? I really care about it. I'm sure it'll be okay in the morning.


Ohh it's not you I was grumpy at, I enjoy learning, and I enjoy teaching and sharing - and sometimes you just see people teach things wrong, and when they use very salesmanesque language to make it seem like this is the "superior" or "correct" way to do something all it does is pray on people who don't know any better. I just can't imagine he believes anything he says, while simultaneously listening to centuries and centuries worth of excellent music that flys completely in the face of what he's teaching. (including contradiction in his own video).


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## Stringtree (May 14, 2021)

@ProfoundSilence , your posts I've never had a problem with. You're a decent dude with a Shosty suggestion. 

Seriously just finding my way. If I mess up, i'ts my own doing and I need to be pointed to it. 

These things I find just harmonize with my own musical development.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> @ProfoundSilence , your posts I've never had a problem with. You're a decent dude with a Shosty suggestion.
> 
> Seriously just finding my way. If I mess up, i'ts my own doing and I need to be pointed to it.
> 
> These things I find just harmonize with my own musical development.


Well definately check out Neo Reimannian theory - it's an entire way to look at progressions based on "smoothness" of voice leading. 

First strarts of with 3 transformations moving 1 chord tone at a time, then it turns into 2 at a time with "compound" transformations.


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## borisb2 (May 14, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Well definately check out Neo Riemannian theory - it's an entire way to look at progressions based on "smoothness" of voice leading.


on that topic I can recommend Hollywood Harmony by Frank Lehmann - great book

The fact that the original topic (rhythm) is heavily ignored in my own thread, I come to the conclusion I am overthinking that and just go with the flow (rhythmically speaking  ) .. all good.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Well my thing is, the typical 2-3 things going on(maybe a 4th) is ideal.

And by this I always look at rhythms as parts.



If you look at even "busy' cues with score reduction - you can visually identify that generally there are only 2-3 independent things happening rhythmically. 

maybe a chord pad, your melodic statement - and the counter statement typically ends up being harmonic, but not always. Again - as the example of tchaikosky, things with the same rhythm and direction "count" as one idea.


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## mopsiflopsi (May 14, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> If we say rhythm in a melody is almost more important than pitch (both go together of course), why is it that about melody and harmony there is a gazillion analysis available but analysis of rhythm is a lot harder to find?


I had a similar post the other day, asking about percussion and rhythm, how some rhythms work together well and some others seem to clash, etc. I didn't get too many answers. To me it feels like analysis of melody and harmony is more open to interpretation, more qualitative and more subjective, kinda like analyzing the meaning and metaphors of poetry, whereas rhythm is more like analyzing punctuation? Hugely important but hard to wax lyrical at dinner parties about periods and commas, I suppose. 

My copy of McKay's book arrived just yesterday, btw.  Haven't had time to read it yet. Did you find out about him via Ryan Leach?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (May 15, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Ya know the one with a monophonic melody backed by block chords?


....wait, is that moving in block chords or is it an independent voice never moving in parallel 8vas/5ths with the melody?


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## Dewdman42 (May 15, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> on that topic I can recommend Hollywood Harmony by Frank Lehmann - great book
> 
> The fact that the original topic (rhythm) is heavily ignored in my own thread, I come to the conclusion I am overthinking that and just go with the flow (rhythmically speaking  ) .. all good.



The first couple chapters of Schillinger might be interesting for you.


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## borisb2 (May 15, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> My copy of McKay's book arrived just yesterday, btw.  Haven't had time to read it yet. Did you find out about him via Ryan Leach?


found out about McKay through Thomas Goss (Orchestration Online) .. I think it is really an awesome book and different approach to orchestration .. hope you will like it!



Dewdman42 said:


> The first couple chapters of Schillinger might be interesting for you.


is there a way to have a sneak peek inside that book somewhere? .. only found a copy on amazon for $974.-


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## Dewdman42 (May 15, 2021)

It is hard to find unfortunately. I forgot about that. 

It seems to be on scribd FWIW, I don't subscribe to scribd so I can't verify that, but when I did a search there for Schillinger it came up with a lot of stuff including the original books and many white papers about it. In many cases the white papers would be easier to understand then the book anyway, which FYI is not easy to understand. You might find the white papers elsewhere for free too.


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## Johnny42 (May 15, 2021)

@borisb2 check out Jeremy Arden's book "Keys to the Schillinger System". It covers the first book of the Schillinger system which is on rhythm.


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## borisb2 (May 15, 2021)

Thats awesome.. thanks for that. Will start searching

Found an interesting introductory video on YT:


Also thanks @ProfoundSilence , have to watch more of these analysis/reduction videos.. limiting to 3 elements matches in that case McKays way of defining homophonic/heterophonic (melody - harmony - motoric activity)


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## borisb2 (May 15, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> This is quite good:



Wow.. that looks quite interesting as well - thanks for the link.


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## Soundbed (May 16, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Where can I study this?


At the risk of sounding trite I’d suggest writing a few different pieces to further internalize a few approaches.

prosody - set a short poem to music, paying attention to the natural rhythms inherent in speech. certain words get accent or emphasis. write a melody that follows the rhythms you’d use to say the words. an example popped into my head, “The hills are alive with the sound of music.” 

polyrhythms - if you can’t already, teach yourself to play 2 against 3, and (separately) 3 against 4 with your hands on your lap or a table. again I used words to learn these. “stop tapping now” and “stop. the goddamn tapping” respectively. both hands tap on the word “stop”. For 2 against 3 one hand plays “ing”. For 3 against 4 one hand plays “stop - god - tap”. apologies for the profanity.

write a short piece using 2 against 3 and a piece using 3 against 4.

other versions of these include studying Indian drum syllables, and separately; phasing techniques as per Steve Reich.

another direction is to study West African (and the rest of sub-Saharan African) drumming rhythms, esp its influence on the music of the Caribbean (Cuba, Haiti) and what we call Latin music.

speaking of Latin rhythms, learn the parts of the 3:2 son clave and the 2:3 son clave.

another interesting aspect of rhythm is timing; playing “in the pocket” or “rushing” vs “dragging”. some of the best rhythm sections can have parts where one aspect rushes while another drags to create tension.

also did you know good bassists tend to play ever so slightly ahead of the beat so that by the time their finger (if fingered bass) leaves the string there’s time for that long wave to begin resonating when the drums hit?

write a short piece for drum kit and electric fingered bass where nothing is “quantized” to the grid and see how groovy you can make it.

let me know if these suggestions are helpful


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## Dewdman42 (May 16, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Thats awesome.. thanks for that. Will start searching
> 
> Found an interesting introductory video on YT:




Here's a free white paper that does a high level explanation of some Schillinger rhythm theory...which may or may not wet your appetite, but may give you an idea about some of the underlying principles.



https://source.sheridancollege.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=faad_publications


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## borisb2 (May 16, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> also did you know good bassists tend to play ever so slightly ahead of the beat so that by the time their finger (if fingered bass) leaves the string there’s time for that long wave to begin resonating when the drums hit?
> 
> write a short piece for drum kit and electric fingered bass where nothing is “quantized” to the grid and see how groovy you can make it.
> 
> let me know if these suggestions are helpful


hey .. yes, every tip is useful. Thanks for these. I played in bands all my life (not bass though  ), and I used tools like the swing quantize heavily when I was on Logic back in the days (on PC  )

By the way polyrhythm is another bigger topic in McKays orchestration book.. nothing really new but refreshing to read in the context of orchestration

I guess studying a bit Schillingers approach as well as diving more down into the various african/american approaches to rhythm gives me enough to work with. Thanks again.


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## szczaw (May 16, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Here's a free white paper that does a high level explanation of some Schillinger rhythm theory...which may or may not wet your appetite, but may give you an idea about some of the underlying principles.
> 
> 
> 
> https://source.sheridancollege.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=faad_publications


Is this the original ?









Schillinger System Of Musical Composition : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Joseph Schillinger is an Ukrainian-American composer and music theorist, known as sbj creator. More on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schillinger_System



archive.org





Physical copy goes for several hundred dollars.


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## szczaw (May 16, 2021)

There's also old software called StrataSynch based on Schillinger's ideas. It's sort of rhythmic arpeggiator.


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## borisb2 (May 16, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> And if you are into NRT, _The Oxford Book of Neo-Riemannian Theories_ has excellent coverage of his rhythmic theories. Newly translated, too.



that looks very interesting as well .. have to compare it to Lehmanns book (which focuses more on "hollywood harmony" .. but there are a few chapters on NRT and Tonnetz as well) .. I guess one can't have enough material to read and practise


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