# Orchestral Sections Depth?



## herrali (Apr 26, 2021)

Hello
in mixing orchestral music i always have this problem that i almost never be sure that woodwinds section are behind the strings and closer than brass , put them in right depth position is very hard , is there any trick or formula to help find out how much reverb send is enough ?

thank you


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## RonV (Apr 26, 2021)

If you like, you can try the (free) Panagement VST on the WW bus. I narrow the width about 10-15% and push the depth back to about -3 or so. But listen with your ears and see if it sounds better to you.


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## herrali (Apr 26, 2021)

RonV said:


> If you like, you can try the (free) Panagement VST on the WW bus. I narrow the width about 10-15% and push the depth back to about -3 or so. But listen with your ears and see if it sounds better to you.


I have vrtual stage 2, but problem with these plugins is that they dont put instruments at the specific place, so differed libraries with same settings of these plugins will go to diffrent depth because some libraries are wetter or closer


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## gamma-ut (Apr 26, 2021)

Unless it's something like MIR Pro where it's using IRs of the early reflections and natural reverb around specific points on the stage, all those tools can really do is harness psychoacoustic effects that, on the whole, are pretty subtle. For example, if you model the dampening effect of air on higher frequencies, it's still less than 1dB at 5kHz or so (half that at 2.5kHz).

Predelay on reverb may be more helpful than the wet/dry mix. The idea behind this is that the direct and reverberated signal will hit something like a tree mic more closely in time than close instruments. If using a common reverb send, you need to delay the sends for the "closer" instruments before they hit the reverb bus itself. A 10m change in distance approximates to around 30ms of delay. Wet instruments will naturally have some of that built in and may not work well with the virtual stage you want to create.


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## blackzeroaudio (Apr 26, 2021)

If you have the Plugin Alliance bundle - check out dearVR PRO or dearVR music. Really helpful tool for moving things around in the 3d space


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 26, 2021)

herrali said:


> Hello
> in mixing orchestral music i always have this problem that i almost never be sure that woodwinds section are behind the strings and closer than brass , put them in right depth position is very hard , is there any trick or formula to help find out how much reverb send is enough ?
> 
> thank you


Quoting myself from the other thread:
_"Im currently using the Beat Kaufmann suggested Method, and im quite happy with it.
Having 4 Depth-Layers (Busses) with a Reverb set for Early Reflections only and routing (not sending) the Instruments or Groups to one of them (50/50 Dry/Wet), depending on their depth location. On the sum bus of everything i put on a reverb with Tail only (Dry/Wet to taste)."_

I get an INSTANT good result for positioning something in the right depth with that. If that kind of routing is a bit unflexible for you, just use it a combination with something. Worth a try


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2021)

Use different mic combinations?


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## blackzeroaudio (Apr 26, 2021)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Quoting myself from the other thread:
> _"Im currently using the Beat Kaufmann suggested Method, and im quite happy with it.
> Having 4 Depth-Layers (Busses) with a Reverb set for Early Reflections only and routing (not sending) the Instruments or Groups to one of them (50/50 Dry/Wet), depending on their depth location. On the sum bus of everything i put on a reverb with Tail only (Dry/Wet to taste)."_
> 
> I get an INSTANT good result for positioning something in the right depth with that. If that kind of routing is a bit unflexible for you, just use it a combination with something. Worth a try


That's kinda interesting. 

How are you setting the ER for each depth?


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 26, 2021)

blackzeroaudio said:


> That's kinda interesting.
> 
> How are you setting the ER for each depth?


For example on Depth 1 (like close Strings) just adjust the Wet/Dry Ratio on that Bus. Drier is closer.
You can hear that easily. Predelay is set also = higher ms -> closer.


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## herrali (Apr 26, 2021)

thank you all guys, i will try the methods and plugins


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## lychee (Apr 26, 2021)

For my part I use Eareverb 2, which like the other plugins mentioned above allows positioning in space (but more affordable), and if like me you do not know where to place things, there are images of environments to help with that .


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## herrali (Apr 26, 2021)

lychee said:


> For my part I use Eareverb 2, which like the other plugins mentioned above allows positioning in space (but more affordable), and if like me you do not know where to place things, there are images of environments to help with that .


most of the libraries recorded in the correct place (no need to change panning) , only depth must change for blending libraries


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## Tralen (Apr 26, 2021)

herrali said:


> most of the libraries recorded in the correct place (no need to change panning) , only depth must change for blending libraries


There are some tools that can help you achieve the depth effect, like TDR Proximity, Sonible Proximity EQ, Airwindows Distance...

Or you could use some of the tools already mentioned, like Panagement, DearVR, just to set the depth, leaving the panning centered.


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## herrali (Apr 26, 2021)

Tralen said:


> There are some tools that can help you achieve the depth effect, like TDR Proximity, Sonible Proximity EQ, Airwindows Distance...
> 
> Or you could use some of the tools already mentioned, like Panagement, DearVR, just to set the depth, leaving the panning centered.


Yes but which of them put dry and wet libraries equally to the position that you want (not dry library becomes closer than the wet one) virtual sound stage for example doesnt do that, if you have 2 drums from 2 different libraries , one wet and one dry , when you push them to the exactly position on stage the dry one still sounds closer


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## Tralen (Apr 26, 2021)

Panagement and DearVR have built-in reverbs that might assist you with this.

In any case, you could use a simple tool like TDR Proximity to create frequency attenuation and adjust the send levels into your main reverb.

A tool to do this automatically doesn't exist. Even MIR won't be able to compensate for a library that is wetter by itself, that is something we have to do by ear.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 26, 2021)

Many ideas help you find your way. So here is another idea.
I don't know how you mix your instruments. Check out this reverb concept...

Have fun
Beat

By the way: You can try your own mix... download the files of th video (Sample Rag)...


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## herrali (Apr 27, 2021)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Many ideas help you find your way. So here is another idea.
> I don't know how you mix your instruments. Check out this reverb concept...
> 
> Have fun
> ...


Excellent reference and ear trainer example, thank you


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 27, 2021)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Many ideas help you find your way. So here is another idea.
> I don't know how you mix your instruments. Check out this reverb concept...
> 
> Have fun
> ...


Thanks Beat,

a question appeared for me while using this method.
The difference of using an Algo. Reverb and not a Convolution one
for the Tail only isnt clear for me. Is it because of an Algo's flexibility,
or soundwise?
Should the tail reverb have a delay on it, to not be in the way
of the busses with the ER's only reverbs?

Btw., need to get that 89€ ready


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## Piotrek K. (Apr 27, 2021)

I would say one thing: do not overthink it and do not care that much about depth, you can go mental with that (I know, been there... or maybe I'm still there?). Panning, proper volume relations are far more important than depth imo.

What I do now is: if library is wet I do not add any ER just send it to reverb tail and mix dry / wet to my liking, if library is dry -> ER as an insert and then send to same tail, mix to your liking. Overusing ER for sure will add you tons of depths. But it is easy to overdo and make music in airplane hangar instead of concert hall.

And btw, I use Eareverb, still love it, but visual approach really messes with my head. It just screams to me: put that wet as hell timpani into back of that lovely stage. Do it. Do it now ;D

[EDIT] Disclaimer, by dry I mean more or less close miced, for example Hollywood orchestra gold for me is wet library, even though it has close to no tail.


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## herrali (Apr 27, 2021)

Piotrek K. said:


> I would say one thing: do not overthink it and do not care that much about depth, you can go mental with that (I know, been there... or maybe I'm still there?). Panning, proper volume relations are far more important than depth imo.
> 
> What I do now is: if library is wet I do not add any ER just send it to reverb tail and mix dry / wet to my liking, if library is dry -> ER as an insert and then send to same tail, mix to your liking. Overusing ER for sure will add you tons of depths. But it is easy to overdo and make music in airplane hangar instead of concert hall.
> 
> ...


I have somehow ocd about reverb, I think most of the wet orchestral libraries blend to each other more or less and ER is not the main target usually, only enough sending reverb for each section is very important because for example woodwinds must go behind the strings and closer than brass, brass are louder and sounds closer and that makes it harder to find out where are they in stage exactly, and unfortunately position plugins like sound stage or panagement dont help for that , they only make instruments closer or farther not put to the specific place


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## Beat Kaufmann (May 3, 2021)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Thanks Beat,
> 
> a question appeared for me while using this method.
> The difference of using an Algo. Reverb and not a Convolution one
> ...


With early reflections (ERs) from real rooms, you get the ability to push instruments fairly "naturally" into the depth of a certain concert hall (acoustically). However, since ERs are usually static room prints, they are less suitable to be used as a tail, because a real tail in real room is not the same at any moment. It is always a new result of reflections arriving again and again. Good algo-tails take this into account. However, many convolution reverbs today have low frequency oscillators (LFOs) that can also modulate the convolution tail. 
So basically, one takes from both worlds what they can do better (more naturally):

Convo: more natural spatial impression
Algo: more natural decay of the reverb tail.
In fact, however, one can no longer draw the line so clearly with many new products. 

By the way, there is a new video on the subject from me...


Have fun
Beat


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## Snoobydoobydoo (May 4, 2021)

Danke Beat, das erklärts.
-
For heavy drum and percussion oriented /„epic“ compositions, the dry/wet ratio of the tail reverb has to be lowered on the drums, so your new routing makes it perfect.


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