# IZotope's junkyard



## cedricm (Oct 26, 2022)

Demoted to the junkyard:

Iris 2
BreakTweaker
Trash 2
Exponential Audio R2, R4, R2 Surround, PhoenixVerb, PhoenixVerb Surround, NIMBUS, and Excalibur

Support for 12 months after purchase.

"We sincerely appreciate your support and regret any inconvenience this action may cause you."

Of course you do.

Soundwide seems to seriously widen the junkyards of its acquired companies.


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## paulwr (Oct 26, 2022)

I'm glad they will be continuing support for Exponential Audio's Stratus and Symphony. Iris 2, that was a surprise. Is another synth coming out from them I don't know about?


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## liquidlino (Oct 26, 2022)

Well, at least all mine are windows, so they should work for a long time to come without issue. Sad though, they haven't released a replacement for trash2, which is a fantastic plugin.


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## Michel Simons (Oct 26, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Demoted to the junkyard:
> 
> Iris 2
> BreakTweaker
> ...


Those are basically all my Exponential Audio plugins. But I am sure I can still use them for quite some time. And since I don't use them that much anyway I am not too concerned.


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## leon chevalier (Oct 26, 2022)

I was never convinced by Izotop Synths. But discontinuing Trash is sad. It's really a great plugin. I was hoping for a v3 with their new plugin look... 😩


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## jcrosby (Oct 27, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> I was never convinced by Izotop Synths. But discontinuing Trash is sad. It's really a great plugin. I was hoping for a v3 with their new plugin look... 😩


Yeah this is the one that's the real heartbreaker for me too... Neutron 4's exciter has a few trash algorithms, and can be pretty gritty the way Trash 2 can, but no where near the selection of distortion algorithms, not to mention all of trash's other features... I really hope Izotope have a Trash 3 in the works!


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## AudioLoco (Oct 27, 2022)

Well, they lost me and my money for EVER.
They were selling R4 and R2 and Iris and Thrash2 licenses for pennies, trying to maximize their cash flow *while they already knew* they were going to dump these products. So so bad practice.

If I was a Mac user, with my plugins to become useless in just a few months, when the next "OS Tiger Shmiger Lion Dragon Snow Leopard " and the new processor arrives, I would have been livid.
Luckily on Windows I'll have a few good years I can still use them.

Never buying anything from them again and looking forward to any good new verb plugs coming out from any notIzotope company.


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## Crowe (Oct 27, 2022)

I don't care, this software will continue working for the next 10 years in my environment. Hell, there's 20 year old abandonware that I'm still running.

Demoting software to end-of-life is pretty common practise. It boggles my mind that it's completely fine when Performance Samples does it to their libraries within 2 years of release but when it happens with iZotope it's torches and pitchforks.

All of this software has been going for bargain-bin prices this last year and now we're upset support has ended? I really don't know what we were expecting.

Seriously, don't buy bargain-bin software on Mac. You will always get burned eventually.

If you're on Windows, nothing changes for you.


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## jcrosby (Oct 27, 2022)

Crowe said:


> It boggles my mind that it's completely fine when Performance Samples does it to their libraries within 2 years of release but when it happens with iZotope it's torches and pitchforks.


Can't argue with that... If anything PS have at least the same, if not a worse overall record of EOLing products abruptly... And usually with a lot less notice, certainly not a 1 year grace period where support will at least be offered. Izotope may be quirky in the way they do things but they really do take a lot of *#!% around here compared to other developers...


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## walkaschaos (Oct 27, 2022)

I expect white-glove personal support for my $10 plugins in perpetuity


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## ptram (Oct 27, 2022)

I had just started using R4 extensively…

Will plug-ins only working under Rosetta emulation work on hosts running in Native Silicon mode?

Paolo


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Seriously, don't buy bargain-bin software on Mac. You will always get burned eventually.
> 
> If you're on Windows, nothing changes for you.


Apple is so bad at backwards compatibility. They just don't care. If you're not running the latest OS you're dead to them.

It happens again and again. Just a couple of days ago they announced new Safari features which only work in Ventura. You might think these are cutting edge features but no. These have been available in Chrome and FF for years now in macOS.

And of course devs have to keep investing hours of code just to keep up with Apple... which is another massive issue end users don't know about.


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## David Kudell (Oct 27, 2022)

I paid full price for my Exponential audio plugins, not $10. Good for those of you on PC who can use old stuff, thanks for letting us all know you’re just fine. Apparently one of the features on Windows is lack of empathy for anyone using a different OS.


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## Virtuoso (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I paid full price for my Exponential audio plugins, not $10.


Same here and I bought them all. I was intrigued when iZotope bought Exponential out as I expected them to overhaul and improve the plugins. Didn't see this coming.

I have the same bad feeling I got when TC ditched the Powercore and thousands of dollars worth of very good plugins went up in smoke.


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## José Herring (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I paid full price for my Exponential audio plugins, not $10. Good for those of you on PC who can use old stuff, thanks for letting us all know you’re just fine. Apparently one of the features on Windows is lack of empathy for anyone using a different OS.


I certainly don't want to diminish what you are going through. I hope my post didn't offend.

I feel for you a lot. I'm actually fairly concerned for us Izotope users because it just seems like they are doing some overly weird stuff and that the original vision of the company as stated, making professional level plugins for music makers, is now an afterthought. 

I think we all are kind of going to feel the pinch in the coming months not just Mac users. Not sure what direction the company is heading in to be honest.


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## AlphaCen (Oct 27, 2022)

On a Mac, one has to choose their plugin vendors carefully...

I usually wait at least 6 months before installing next Mac OS version. Nobody is forcing anybody to update, however sitting on some obscure version of Mac OS three or more generations behind is surely going to cause problems. Macs are not PCs where some users still refuse to upgrade from Windows XP






Many people blame Apple for breaking compatibility all the time. If that was indeed the case, all plugin vendors would be lagging behind in a similar fashion. However, some companies are providing compatibility in a timely fashion, whereas some others don't.

My trusted Mac plugin vendors: AAS, Arturia, Synapse, Rob Papen, ReFX, U-He, Spectrasonics, Plogue, AudioThing, TAL, Sugar Bytes, KORG, Waves, D16 Group. There are many others, of course.

For those not to be trusted, look out for those symptoms:

Lack of HDPI, waiting for months (or years in case of M1 compatibility) for next Mac OS compatible version, not adhering to Apple's HUI programming guidelines, using obscure or home-brew graphic libraries (fancy buttons, window frames, etc) - all red flags, indicating PC-centric development, where Mac versions are money-milking afterthoughts.


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## givemenoughrope (Oct 27, 2022)

Surprised by Iris 2 being dropped. Maybe there will be a new spectral product by them? Any equivalents out there?


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

AlphaCen said:


> Lack of HDPI


This is still an ongoing issue on Windows too. Plenty of stuff not rendering in hiDPI or not scaling properly. I mean look no further than Kontakt and Reaktor.


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## David Kudell (Oct 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I certainly don't want to diminish what you are going through. I hope my post didn't offend.
> 
> I feel for you a lot. I'm actually fairly concerned for us Izotope users because it just seems like they are doing some overly weird stuff and that the original vision of the company as stated, making professional level plugins for music makers, is now an afterthought.
> 
> I think we all are kind of going to feel the pinch in the coming months not just Mac users. Not sure what direction the company is heading in to be honest.


No offense taken, I didn’t see a post by you actually.

But yeah, all this consolidation is a bit bad for consumers. Then you have a subset of people who really have to be conscious of maintaining some semblance of continuity in their composing system, in order to preserve stability and backwards compatibility.

This is made more difficult by the annual OS upgrade cycle at Apple implements. I’m always 1 year behind the latest MacOS, so when most people upgrade to 13 Ventura now, I’ll just be upgrading to 12 Monterey.

My strategy with dealing with this is to strip down a bit to the essentials and stay with trusted brands that stay on top of it. My audio interface is RME and they’re one of the first ones to support a new OS. Same with Liquidsonics on the reverb side.

I feel like having fewer really good plugins leads to a more stable experience than loading your system up with tons and tons of plugins that do the same thing. But that’s just me. I’m not one of those people that can hear the difference between 10 types of analog modeled compressors anyway.

When I eventually do buy a new Mac it will be a great opportunity to trim the fat.


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> But yeah, all this consolidation is a bit bad for consumers. Then you have a subset of people who really have to be conscious of maintaining some semblance of continuity in their composing system, in order to preserve stability and backwards compatibility.
> 
> This is made more difficult by the annual OS upgrade cycle at Apple implements. I’m always 1 year behind the latest MacOS, so when most people upgrade to 13 Ventura now, I’ll just be upgrading to 12 Monterey.


Why keep your composing machine on macOS though?

I'm not a hater btw. I use both Windows and macOS on a daily basis. Both have pros and cons but if you want to prioritize backwards compatibility, control of the hardware, etc, Windows is objectively a better option for a studio desktop machine.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 27, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I don't care, this software will continue working for the next 10 years in my environment. Hell, there's 20 year old abandonware that I'm still running.
> 
> Demoting software to end-of-life is pretty common practise. It boggles my mind that it's completely fine when Performance Samples does it to their libraries within 2 years of release but when it happens with iZotope it's torches and pitchforks.
> 
> ...


there is no comparison at all.
Sample libraries aren't like software. I haven't heard much about Kontakt libraries causing crashes and or becoming incompatible/broken after with system updates or switches.
They aren't software/plugins but merely hosted by the software/plugin Kontakt.

Whereas these issues are of course not uncommon with software/plugins.
I have a fairly amazing amount of tech issues and bugs with everything, including plugins but never a serious work-threating issue or crash I could relate to a Kontakt LIBRARY.
So it's really different stuff.
I also don't know if PS specifically stated that there won't be support.

I'm not concerned about some string legato Kontakt patch crashing my sessions, but I am concerned about big ass complex software like izotopes doing that.
These things can happen out of the blue after a long while of everything running fine and if there is no support it can be a problem. 

The point about bargain prices I don't get at all. Unless it comes with a warning in that regard there is no reason to assume discontinuation.
8dio is also running crazy sales but I doubt they will remove the libraries concerned and discontinue support anytime soon.


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## Stevie (Oct 27, 2022)

I can only say: I vote with my wallet.


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## David Kudell (Oct 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> Why keep your composing machine on macOS though?
> 
> I'm not a hater btw. I use both Windows and macOS on a daily basis. Both have pros and cons but if you want to prioritize backwards compatibility, control of the hardware, etc, Windows is objectively a better option for a studio desktop machine.


That’s a question that requires a long answer, but basically I just prefer MacOS for a lot of reasons.

On the chip side as well, Apple silicon to me has way more upside. I am looking forward to the new Mac Pro.


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## timbit2006 (Oct 27, 2022)

Who would have thought that when an investment firm with a strong history of profiteering at all costs bought a good amount of companies making plugins that it would lead to them cost-cutting solely in the name of profit, I wonder how the people defending the acquisition feel now lol. 
I have most of the products here, this is very annoying. Does anyone know if we wont be able to download them anymore after a certain date?



David Kudell said:


> I paid full price for my Exponential audio plugins, not $10. Good for those of you on PC who can use old stuff, thanks for letting us all know you’re just fine. Apparently one of the features on Windows is lack of empathy for anyone using a different OS.


Microsoft has put a lot of time and effort into making windows backwards compatible, I can put a CD from 1995 into my disk drive and run it just fine. On mac you can't do that and it's entirely the choice of Apple to have it that way. This information is readily available online so I will not even shed the smallest tear for a mac user that put themselves in this position to begin with. Sorry if this seems rude but it is what it is. 
I'm definitely 100% on the side of the devs that had to work overtime for no profit(unless they're like Waves and scam you out of money for compatibility updates...) just to put out M1 upgrades or they'd face permanent defaming of their company by angry apple users when it was Apple themselves that caused the problem.


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## David Kudell (Oct 27, 2022)

Never fails that people always turn things into a PC vs Mac war. I couldn’t care less, I certainly can’t tell from your music what OS you used.


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## jcrosby (Oct 27, 2022)

ptram said:


> Will plug-ins only working under Rosetta emulation work on hosts running in Native Silicon mode?
> 
> Paolo


They will if your DAW hosts AU plugins. AU plugins allow the OS to run the plugin via the _AUHostingCompatbilityService_, which hosts AU plugins via Rosetta. If you're in Cubase and locked to VST it's possible Blue Cat Patchwork _might_ be a solution, but I don't know for sure since I don't use Cubase... You'd need to demo it and see if you can select and load the AU in Cubase, and that it runs reliably...

You can see in the screenshot below that I have Live running natively, and both Kontakt 5 and Nimbus are running in the session. If I use Live's search feature the AU versions show up, the VST versions don't. (AFAICT this is a limitation of VST, not a 'preference' for AU put in place by Apple... But I might be wrong about that...)

That said it does come down to the plugin... For example certain non-native SF player libraries don't work unless the DAW is running in Rosetta, which according to SF support is basically the fault of their quirky authorization scheme.... You either have to run the authorizer either with Rosetta or natively. If you authorized natively the plugins break with a DAW running in Rosetta; if you authorize with Rosetta the plugins break if your DAW is running natively... 

Here you can see Live running natively with Kontakt 5 and Nimbus running fine under the AUHostingCompatibilityService.





reliably


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## AlphaCen (Oct 27, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> Microsoft has put a lot of time and effort into making windows backwards compatible, I can put a CD from 1995 into my disk drive and run it just fine. On mac you can't do that and it's entirely the choice of Apple to have it that way. This information is readily available online so I will not even shed the smallest tear for a mac user that put themselves in this position to begin with. Sorry if this seems rude but it is what it is.
> I'm definitely 100% on the side of the devs that had to work overtime for no profit(unless they're like Waves and scam you out of money for compatibility updates...) just to put out M1 upgrades or they'd face permanent defaming of their company by angry apple users when it was Apple themselves that caused the problem.


No doubt about PC/Windows platform backwards compatibility advantage, but (IMHO) it is at the expense of innovation. PC platform is a platform of stagnation. Every time Microsoft tries to change something (even as trivial as how start menu looks like), PC users are going on a war...

I do love my Xbox Series X, so I am definitely not anti-Microsoft 

I agree that Mac users need to do their homework and shouldn't cry a wolf when taken by surprise by opportunistic software vendors, for which Mac versions of their software/plugins are an afterthought.

As for the rest, we have to agree to disagree 

- Waves WUP is amazing, 20 years old plugins are still working on newest Mac OS
- Software vendors need to be SERIOUS about supporting Mac platform or do not support it at all
- If something takes 2 or more years to be made compatible, defaming is not enough


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## jcrosby (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> Apparently one of the features on Windows is lack of empathy for anyone using a different OS.


I LOL'd at that


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## Crowe (Oct 27, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> The point about bargain prices I don't get at all. Unless it comes with a warning in that regard there is no reason to assume discontinuation.
> 8dio is also running crazy sales but I doubt they will remove the libraries concerned and discontinue support anytime soon.


The idea that anybody who purchases a piece of software is entitled to unending support is ludicrous as any developer can tell you. There is no reason to assume continued support to begin with. When you buy a piece of software, it's supposed to work. That's the amount of support you can fairly expect. Entitlement is still entitlement.

I feel there's marginally more reason to expect some continued support at full price, but when a product hits bargain prices, *development is done. Bargain price = clearance. *It's over. This is not a problem on one OS, but apparently it is on another. This is not the fault of a developer.

That's all on the OS manufacturer.


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## timbit2006 (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> Never fails that people always turn things into a PC vs Mac war. I couldn’t care less, I certainly can’t tell from your music what OS you used.


You're the one that brought up that Windows users have no empathy, what were you really expecting?


AlphaCen said:


> No doubt about PC/Windows platform backwards compatibility advantage, but (IMHO) it is at the expense of innovation. PC platform is a platform of stagnation. Every time Microsoft tries to change something (even as trivial as how start menu looks like), PC users are going on a war...
> 
> I agree that Mac users need to do their homework and shouldn't cry a wolf when taken by surprise by opportunistic software vendors, for which Mac versions of their software/plugins are an afterthought.
> 
> ...


Until we see quantum computing on a home level I'm perfectly happy using an extremely backwards compatible OS at the expense of innovation or something like that.


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> I'm definitely 100% on the side of the devs that had to work overtime for no profit(unless they're like Waves and scam you out of money for compatibility updates...) just to put out M1 upgrades or they'd face permanent defaming of their company by angry apple users when it was Apple themselves that caused the problem.


I kinda agree but the issue with Apple is not that they're deprecating things but rather that they don't give enough time for devs to adapt.

Like when they decided to break 32 bits compat and announced it a year in advance. This was a major breaking change that should have been announced 3-5 years in advance.

Same with ARM. They pulled the rabbit out of their pocket and now in 2 years everyone is sprinting because consumers demand ARM compat, free of charge of course. Even big devs like Izotope can't keep up so they end up deprecating products.

At some point Apple will announce the end of Objective C and OpenGL on macOS. This will prompt another wave of deprecated products because of devs that can't keep up.

Sometimes I wonder how the meetings about these decisions go at Apple.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 27, 2022)

Crowe said:


> The idea that anybody who purchases a piece of software is entitled to unending support is ludicrous as any developer can tell you. There is no reason to assume continued support to begin with. When you buy a piece of software, it's supposed to work. That's the amount of support you can fairly expect. Entitlement is still entitlement.
> 
> I feel there's marginally more reason to expect some continued support at full price, but when a product hits bargain prices, *development is done. Bargain price = clearance. *It's over. This is not a problem on one OS, but apparently it is on another. This is not the fault of a developer.
> 
> That's all on the OS manufacturer.


well that's your opinion. Mine differs.
I'm sure software developers prefer yours. Of course they will hold opinion that's most comfortable for them because we people all like our comfort. :D
You could also call it baiting to try and get a lot of people to buy your product only to withdraw support shortly after.
If a developer doesn't state it's clearance I don't have a reason to assume that. If it is clearance then MENTION IT. Many others have done that before pulling a product, which is the fair way.

It also has nothing to do with OS, everything can randomly start causing serious work threatening issues on any OS at any point.


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## David Kudell (Oct 27, 2022)

I mean, as a Mac user, I look at the whole picture. I accept the cons of things like the Apple silicon transition because the upside is also exciting. I can edit like a million streams of 8K video on a laptop running on battery for a fraction of the price of the cheesegrater Mac Pro. Because they put video decoding/encoding right on the chip itself.

So if that costs me no longer using Phoenix Verb, you know what, I’ll live.


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## Crowe (Oct 27, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> well that's your opinion. Mine differs.
> I'm sure software developers prefer yours. Of course they will hold opinion that's most comfortable for them because we people all like our comfort. :D
> 
> It also has nothing to do with OS, everything can randomly start causing serious work threatening issues on any OS at any point.


Nice. The opinion card. Sadly, I live this and it's the nature of the Software Development business. If it's not SaaS, support is at the mercy of the stakeholder's whimsand while I'm sure you can be of the opinion you deserve support, that's just not the reality.

Quite crudely put, why do you think someone deserves anything of the sort? Does putting down a tenner really entitle you to a lifetime of support? How about a few hundred bucks?

It also has everything to do with OS. Yeah, everything can randomly start causing issues, but there's only one system actively designed to stop supporting everything on it every few years. Again, this is not the developer's fault.

EDIT:
Maybe I'm just too close to this shit.


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## AlphaCen (Oct 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> I kinda agree but the issue with Apple is not that they're deprecating things but rather that they don't give enough time for devs to adapt.
> 
> Like when they decided to break 32 bits compat and announced it a year in advance. This was a major breaking change that should have been announced 3-5 years in advance.
> 
> ...


"Enough time" is highly subjective. Yes, Apple likes to push everyone's hand by deprecating things, but they give warnings and they give timeframes.

I am perfectly happy to pay for M1 upgrades, that's why I said I'm OK with WUP. But there needs to be something to pay for, just look at NI or IK Multimedia. They are just having a laugh, really.

OpenGL was deprecated by Apple at least 5 years ago, it still works for now, but developers are advised not to use it by Apple because it will disappear eventually and to start using Metal. Guess how many plugin vendors still use OpenGL? About 100%...

That's why Apple needs to apply pressure on developers, otherwise complacency always wins...

But that's again, just my humble opinion


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## Daren Audio (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I mean, as a Mac user, I look at the whole picture. I accept the cons of things like the Apple silicon transition because the upside is also exciting. I can edit like a million streams of 8K video on a laptop running on battery for a fraction of the price of the cheesegrater Mac Pro. Because they put video decoding/encoding right on the chip itself.


This!

And I can't wait to try Da Vinci on the new iPad Pro. 
The Silicon chip will blur the lines between desktop and tablets.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 27, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> Same here and I bought them all. I was intrigued when iZotope bought Exponential out as I *expected them to overhaul and improve the plugins.* Didn't see this coming.
> 
> I have the same bad feeling I got when TC ditched the Powercore and thousands of dollars worth of very good plugins went up in smoke.


That is rare for any developer. See Magix taking over Sony.


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## jcrosby (Oct 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I certainly don't want to diminish what you are going through. I hope my post didn't offend.
> 
> I feel for you a lot. I'm actually fairly concerned for us Izotope users because it just seems like they are doing some overly weird stuff and that the original vision of the company as stated, making professional level plugins for music makers, is now an afterthought.
> 
> I think we all are kind of going to feel the pinch in the coming months not just Mac users. Not sure what direction the company is heading in to be honest.


I disagree. I see them as making plugins intended to make things easier for people to get started, while at the same time making work quicker under the gun. RX for example is used in pretty much any post facility on earth, (often to great effect), if it didn't make life quicker, easier, and better sounding that wouldn't be the case (especially given the time constraints of post production). And contrary to popular belief a lot of mastering engineers do use Ozone in some capacity, (as well as RX). MBIT+ and Izotope's SRC are pretty widely appreciated in the mastering world.

I get how/why things look that way to some, (cynicism about upgrade pricing, concerns about what it means for them to be funded by a monolith like FP, etc... Which is all totally fair...) In reality Izotope have to compete with a world where 10$ LANDR masters exist & other software companies are competing to create automated mixing workflows of their own; all while attempting to provide a compelling reason for someone to opt for the more expensive route by buying a dedicated piece of software that requires some time and effort to learn how to get the most milage out of.

I also think echo chambers like VIC have a tendency to skew perspective, the more confirmation of bias from others, the greater biases are reinforced... Assistant features aside, you can still do everything from the ground up in any of their plugins and the DSP is as good as it ever was. Is it great these were EOL'd? No, but this happens all of the time, meanwhile I'e seen very little fuss about NI discontinuing Absynth, or as someone else pointed out, PS samples nuking libraries at a ridiculous rate, often with bugs being left behind... Unfortunately this is one of the costs we incur by relying on software.


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## KEM (Oct 27, 2022)

Sad to see Iris and Trash go, great products

If they ever try to retire StutterEdit I will go ballistic and it will not be pretty…


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 27, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Nice. The opinion card. Sadly, I live this and it's the nature of the Software Development business. If it's not SaaS, support is at the mercy of the stakeholder's whimsand while I'm sure you can be of the opinion you deserve support, that's just not the reality.
> 
> Quite crudely put, why do you think someone deserves anything of the sort? Does putting down a tenner really entitle you to a lifetime of support? How about a few hundred bucks?
> 
> ...


Well, of course generally the assumption is that the entitlement to support isn't needed. Which it generally isn't, so it's not like everyone is going to ask for hundreds of different fixes for a tenner or a few hundred bucks.
But when for instance being unable to run a project on a tight deadline with significant irreplaceable usage of a plugin is it in any way ethically responsible to withhold support?
Especially after *enticing people to buy it* at low prices.
Maybe if it's a very old plugin that hasn't been advertised much and is kinda going down the drain it's fine, but these plugins in their latest version are not thaaat old as far as I can tell, and there was no sign of abandonment - low prices don't suggest this to me. Actively enticing people to buy it make the move even more problematic actually IMO.

A more fair solution would be to put up the info of the upcoming retirement as soon as possible, such a decision certainly doesn't come overnight.
Or only provide support/hotfixes in cases where the plugin really doesn't work at all.
And DON'T PUSH PEOPLE TO BUY IT WITH HUGE SALES WITHOUT UTTERING A WHIM ABOUT IT.
This is the most problematic thing here.


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## method1 (Oct 27, 2022)

I think it's revenge for the great IZOTOPE WHAT'S HAPPENING thread of '22.


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## Akarin (Oct 27, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Seriously, don't buy bargain-bin software on Mac. You will always get burned eventually.
> 
> If you're on Windows, nothing changes for you.


Windows *IS* the bargain bin OS :-p


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## Alchemedia (Oct 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> Apple is so bad at backwards compatibility. They just don't care. If you're not running the latest OS you're dead to them.
> 
> It happens again and again. Just a couple of days ago they announced new Safari features which only work in Ventura. You might think these are cutting edge features but no. These have been available in Chrome and FF for years now in macOS.
> 
> And of course devs have to keep investing hours of code just to keep up with Apple... which is another massive issue end users don't know about.



Apple's modus operandi has always been form over function for more $.


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

KEM said:


> Sad to see Iris and Trash go, great products
> 
> If they ever try to retire StutterEdit I will go ballistic and it will not be pretty…


I'll give it a year or two...


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## KEM (Oct 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> I'll give it a year or two...



I will show up at their headquarters and they’ll have to escort me out the same way Skechers just did to Kanye


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

KEM said:


> I will show up at their headquarters and they’ll have to escort me out the same way Skechers just did to Kanye


When iZotope starts selling stuff at $10 you know it's going to get slashed.


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## KEM (Oct 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> When iZotope starts selling stuff at $10 you know it's going to get slashed.



You know what? I’m just gonna email them now and let them know that retiring StutterEdit is off limits, there will be consequences if they decide to do it anyways…


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## liquidlino (Oct 27, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Apple's modus operandi has always been form over function for more $.


I'm no apple fanboy, and steer clear of their products. However, I totally understand their market position, which is providing computing that simply works. No fuss, no compatibility issues, easy to use. The price that the user pays for this is high entry cost, repeated ongoing costs to rebuy the same function. It's best to look at apple as a subscription service for folk who don't want to think about being their own technical support. Which is a really good deal for those that it suits, which is the majority of people.


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## David Kudell (Oct 27, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I'm no apple fanboy, and steer clear of their products. However, I totally understand their market position, which is providing computing that simply works. No fuss, no compatibility issues, easy to use. The price that the user pays for this is high entry cost, repeated ongoing costs to rebuy the same function. It's best to look at apple as a subscription service for folk who don't want to think about being their own technical support. Which is a really good deal for those that it suits, which is the majority of people.


Good assessment, it also has to do with whether you think it’s better or not for the hardware maker to also make the software or for them to be separate. Pros and cons.

Does Microsoft still charge for OS updates or are they free now like MacOS?


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## liquidlino (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> Good assessment, it also has to do with whether you think it’s better or not for the hardware maker to also make the software or for them to be separate. Pros and cons.
> 
> Does Microsoft still charge for OS updates or are they free now like MacOS?


Been free for a while now, since Win 10 came out. Most got a free upgrade to Windows 10, and everything since is free - they touted Win10 as the last windows you'll ever pay for, and have kept to that so far. Makes sense, Microsoft's main income is from desktop productivity software (Office Online), Enterprise Software (Exchange, SQL Server, Windows Server) and cloud computing services (Azure). Providing the desktop platform for effectively free acts as a gateway drug into all those services. Plus, they were losing market share like crazy to Linux and MacOS at one point, I'm sure that had some bearing.

Windows is great for those willing or able to do their own tech support, or willing to pay someone else to do it. I'm a through and through computer geek, so it's easy for me (I used to own and run an IT support services company in London, and we specialised in Microsoft, and I used to be a MCSE certified engineer, as well as certified Java Programmer). But there's no way I'd recommend a non-tech person to run music software on Windows. To get latency down and resolve audio issues, I had to run LatencyMon, diagnose what it said, and then resolve the driver issues through lots of research and editing registry etc. And this is the problem with windows - there's so many variables at play that Microsoft can't test for. They've done their best at creating hardware abstraction layers, but it doesn't make every combination of hardware and software error-free. On top of that, learning how to do backups, migrate between machines etc, it's all so much easier on MacOS for a non-technical person.

So the mac vs windows debate needs a lot of nuance and context, just like music


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## Technostica (Oct 27, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I'm no apple fanboy, and steer clear of their products. However, I totally understand their market position, which is providing computing that simply works. No fuss, no compatibility issues, easy to use. The price that the user pays for this is high entry cost, repeated ongoing costs to rebuy the same function. It's best to look at apple as a subscription service for folk who don't want to think about being their own technical support. Which is a really good deal for those that it suits, which is the majority of people.


From a DAW perspective it seems the opposite of no fuss, no compatibility issues.
So many people are still using an older versions of the OS due to hardware incompatibility or because they don’t want to lose access to favourite software.
As an outsider looking in, it looks like a pain in the ass to keep on top of this, regardless of whether you upgrade your hardware regularly.
Plus it turns out that only the latest version of the OS is fully patched:









Apple clarifies security update policy: Only the latest OSes are fully patched


New document confirms what security researchers have observed for a few years.




arstechnica.com


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## liquidlino (Oct 27, 2022)

Technostica said:


> From a DAW perspective it seems the opposite of no fuss, no compatibility issues.
> So many people are still using an older versions of the OS due to hardware incompatibility or because they don’t want to lose access to favourite software.
> As an outsider looking in, it looks like a pain in the ass to keep on top of this, regardless of whether you upgrade your hardware regularly.
> Plus it turns out that only the latest version of the OS is fully patched:
> ...


Yeah, that's what I mean by subscription service. And that applies to all the software you buy to run on the Apple device as well - you can expect to have to rebuy it all every 2-4 years. It's proven that Apple cripple older devices performance through software updates to encourage users to move to the latest device, even before they're officially end of life.

I think the major thing apple does wrong is not giving 3rd party developers enough warning and time to prepare their software for major apple architectural changes. But this all speaks to the secrecy even internally at Apple about what they're up to.

Ultimately though. In computing world, if you get three years usage out of an item of expenditure, then you've got your moneys worth. Expecting any more is a path to perdition and madness. Getting more is delightful and should be rejoiced.


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> it also has to do with whether you think it’s better or not for the hardware maker to also make the software or for them to be separate


Why would it be better?


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## scoplunk (Oct 27, 2022)

I'm no apple fanboy and, yes, their hardware prices are high and keeping up with all the updates, both software and hardware, is a big PITA sometimes. But, I think people forget about some of the things we get once we're in the system. Logic X came out in 2013. Did I pay $200 for it then? I can't even remember. That would be because I've never had to pay them again in almost 10 years. One day, they sent out a Logic update that included Alchemy. For free. When I get a new computer, do I have to buy a new license? No. I just download it to my new computer for nothing. This isn't trivial. I have to jump through hoops with some of my other software to even be able to use it on a new computer without buying it again or making sure it's deauthorized correctly on the old computer. My main DAW works on all my computers without any fuss. It's true that some of the computers can't run the latest version of Logic, but those computers are over 10 years old. I don't feel like I got screwed over by Apple because they no longer support computer hardware that's over 10 years old. The computer still works. It just can't be updated. I mean, you have to know that's going to happen someday. Computer years are like dog years, so that's pushing senior citizen old.

Back to the main subject: I am going to miss Trash. I hope they figure out a way to bring us something similar in the future. I don't know what's going on with Izotope and I agree that it's confusing, but I still really like a lot of their products. If they only made RX, I'd be a fan. I'm choosing to be optimistic. I really hope I don't have to regret that last sentence...


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## Pier (Oct 27, 2022)

I'm sure if it was up to Apple they'd give Logic away for free. They don't do it probably to not get into trouble about anticompetitive laws.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 27, 2022)

Crowe said:


> this software will continue working for the next 10 years in my environment


Will it? R4 and esp. Nimbus stopped working for me a year ago in Studio One (Win10). Near-deafening audio glitches that literally made me cry out it was so loud - I've since done things to address that so no other software can do what those did to my ears. It's why I switched to Liquidsonics. There's no guarantees. One can HOPE it continues working, but tech moves (and breaks) so that even new things, like a new OS and/or new DAW, can do weird things to old software.

You're probably right for most people. But....


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## Bman70 (Oct 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> When iZotope starts selling stuff at $10 you know it's going to get slashed.


I thought this was just them finally realizing the real value of their products, like Waves.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 28, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Can't argue with that... If anything PS have at least the same, if not a worse overall record of EOLing products abruptly... And usually with a lot less notice, certainly not a 1 year grace period where support will at least be offered. Izotope may be quirky in the way they do things but they really do take a lot of *#!% around here compared to other developers...


What do you mean?
I only remember a single time where products have been removed. And actually they have been brought back due to "popular demand".
After just a few months if I remember well...
How does a single time of removing products only to bring them back later (listening to peoples wishes - actually a positive) give a developer a such bad track record?
I also don't remember any mention of no support being offered. But it's also much less relevant with Kontakt libraries than with software. Much less likely a Kontakt patch will cause serious issues than complex software.


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## ka00 (Oct 28, 2022)

Now that Trash is trash, anyone know of alternatives that are as good? I bought at full price and even bought the expansions. I will miss this piece of software. It had so many different interesting noise and convolution presets to play around with.


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## Technostica (Oct 28, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Been free for a while now, since Win 10 came out. Most got a free upgrade to Windows 10, and everything since is free - they touted Win10 as the last windows you'll ever pay for, and have kept to that so far. Makes sense, Microsoft's main income is from desktop productivity software (Office Online), Enterprise Software (Exchange, SQL Server, Windows Server) and cloud computing services (Azure). Providing the desktop platform for effectively free acts as a gateway drug into all those services. Plus, they were losing market share like crazy to Linux and MacOS at one point, I'm sure that had some bearing.


Windows isn’t free and most of their licence income has always come from OEM licences.
Plus, if you build your own PC you still need to buy a license.
I think they decided to give away upgrades for free as it makes it easier for them.
The aim being to have as many people as possible on the same version, which makes support easier and less expensive.
They might even save money overall even though they are no longer getting money for upgrades!

But MS are less friendly now since W10 came out and even more so with W11 which isn't officially supported on CPUs prior to the 8th generation; released October 2017.
But if you bought a 7th gen system in October 2017, it will run W10 which is supported until October 2025.
So 8 years of full support isn't too bad.

The biggest difference for me is not how long the hardware is supported by O/S upgrades, but how software compatibility is impacted.
The pain there is dramatically much worse for Apple but at least they are seeing great benefits with the move to Apple Silicon.
That is such a paradigm shift that overall it seems worthwhile, especially for small form factor devices including laptops.
For a large desktop user such as myself, the pain isn't worth it as I already have high performance silent computing in a flexible format that I can upgrade as I like, at reasonable prices.

As for Windows losing market share like crazy to Linux, you're having a laugh.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 28, 2022)

ka00 said:


> Now that Trash is trash, anyone know of alternatives that are as good? I bought at full price and even bought the expansions. I will miss this piece of software. It had so many different interesting noise and convolution presets to play around with.



The IRs are all regular .wav files, so you can keep them and use them in other convolution plugins. 

Audiothing's Fog Convolver is one option for just convolution processing and managing a library of IRs. Blue Cat's Destructor/Axiom gets you a long way to replacing Trash's features, but it lacks the multiband compressor and delay that Trash has and you can't reorder the modules as it's meant to emulate a typical amp+cab signal chain. The response editing in Destructor is pretty good though as you have the ability to add a degree of comb filtering on top of an EQ curve.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 28, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> What do you mean?
> I only remember a single time where products have been removed. And actually they have been brought back due to "popular demand".
> After just a few months if I remember well...


Caspian, Fluid Shorts, Con Moto discontinued April 30, 2021, re-introduced July 11, 2022. A slight bit more than a few months.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 28, 2022)

AlphaCen said:


> No doubt about PC/Windows platform backwards compatibility advantage, but (IMHO) it is at the expense of innovation. PC platform is a platform of stagnation. Every time Microsoft tries to change something (even as trivial as how start menu looks like), PC users are going on a war...
> 
> I do love my Xbox Series X, so I am definitely not anti-Microsoft
> 
> ...


If you think Microsoft doesn’t innovate, you’re just ignorant. What they’re bad at is marketing. Apple is good at both. Especially marketing.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 28, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Caspian, Fluid Shorts, Con Moto discontinued April 30, 2021, re-introduced July 11, 2022. A slight bit more than a few months.


Ok, I was wrong there. How about the rest of the post rather than just the easiest part to refute?
I just don't see the comparison between a permanent removal of software and support and a removal of libraries for a year without implied removal of (much less important) support in that period.


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## AlphaCen (Oct 28, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> If you think Microsoft doesn’t innovate, you’re just ignorant. What they’re bad at is marketing. Apple is good at both. Especially marketing.


Oh I do think they innovate, but at much slower pace than they could have had, if not for the whole backwards compatibility holding them back, that’s all.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 28, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Ok, I was wrong there. How about the rest of the post rather than just the easiest part to refute?
> I just don't see the comparison between a permanent removal of software and support and a removal of libraries for a year without implied removal of (much less important) support in that period.


At the time of discontinuation for those libraries, it was believed to be permanent. I'm not saying I think it's an apples-to-apples comparison, just making sure the actual facts are established.


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## walkaschaos (Oct 28, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I paid full price for my Exponential audio plugins, not $10. Good for those of you on PC who can use old stuff, thanks for letting us all know you’re just fine. Apparently one of the features on Windows is lack of empathy for anyone using a different OS.


I was just kidding around, don't be cross with me. I do actually agree it is a bit of a dick move by Izotope. As much as people bag on Waves and WUP they are still supporting plugins from like the 90s.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 28, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> At the time of discontinuation for those libraries, it was believed to be permanent. I'm not saying I think it's an apples-to-apples comparison, just making sure the actual facts are established.


it was believed yea, but turned out differently. At this point they are no longer gone so it's not even an apples and oranges comparison, more apples and deceased orange tree haha.
Especially since nothing indicates there wouldn't have been support by PS if a serious issue occurs with one of them. Unlike with izotope where support is clearly stopped.
Although who knows, maybe they'd still do hotfixes when something really bad happens but at least it can't be assumed based on their statement.


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## AceAudioHQ (Oct 28, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I certainly can’t tell from your music what OS you used.


Music made with a mac sounds more melancholic and stressful since the composer knows there's an os update coming and his old plugins will stop working soon


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## ptram (Oct 28, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Music made with a mac sounds more melancholic and stressful since the composer knows there's an os update coming and his old plugins will stop working soon


We Macoids compose better, because we know that this may be the last opportunity to do it before having to relearn every tool!

Paolo


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## styphonthal (Oct 28, 2022)

This makes me sad: I love using trash for mild and crazy distortion. IRIS 2 also doesn't really have any competitors for what it does. I also still use the EA reverbs.


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## jcrosby (Oct 28, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Ok, I was wrong there. How about the rest of the post rather than just the easiest part to refute?
> I just don't see the comparison between a permanent removal of software and support and a removal of libraries for a year without implied removal of (much less important) support in that period.


They were removed simultaneously. As TP pointed out the implication at the time was that the removal was permanent. (See the thread link below). The email from this past July clearly implies that the libraries were only brought back after receiving a bunch of feedback about them being discontinued. So while they're technically available again as of this past July, the initial intent was that they weren't coming back.






Looking for some shorts


Hello, I'm looking for some shorts for sound design type application. String ensembles, medium room, aggressive to not aggressive, super loud to softish, millions of roundrobins, super playable well edited. Any hidden gems? I'm kind of fully aware of the libraries and I have many but...




vi-control.net





PS also ran a sale on the libraries before discontinuing them, which although not identical, is also not all that different from Izotope blowing out EA reverbs before the announcement this week. And unlike PS Izotope have at least guaranteed 1 year of support from the date of purchase, whereas PS's EULA specifically states no guarantee of support: _"You agree and acknowledge that use of the Samples are at your sole risk, the Samples are provided to you on an “*AS-IS*” basis, and the Samples may include elements which diverge from propriety (e.g. rough tuning, sample imperfection, lack of noise reduction, and other various quirks in the sound). Performance Samples is not obligated to provide you with any support in connection with the Samples."_


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 28, 2022)




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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 28, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> They were removed simultaneously. As TP pointed out the implication at the time was that the removal was permanent. (See the thread link below). The email from this past July clearly implies that the libraries were only brought back after receiving a bunch of feedback about them being discontinued. So while they're technically available again as of this past July, the initial intent was that they weren't coming back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No comparison between running sales to bait people into buying stuff WITHOUT KNOWING they will be discontinued and doing so with people KNOWING that will be the case.

And that clause about support isn't related to the removal. The way I understand it it just means they don't want to be asked to remove noises or correct other roughness (which is also generally mentioned in the library limitations tab) rather than not providing any support at all when something really doesn't work or there are serious bugs. Which is infinitely less likely to happen with sample patches compared to software. 
With izotope it just sounds like there won't be any support at all, even if the software takes down your sessions.


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## sean8877 (Oct 28, 2022)

AlphaCen said:


> Oh I do think they innovate, but at much slower pace than they could have had, if not for the whole backwards compatibility holding them back, that’s all.


Yeah screw those end users and their backward compatability needs, who needs them.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 28, 2022)

So where can I find that Apple vs. Pc debate again? Oh wait! Never mind.


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## colony nofi (Oct 28, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> Yeah screw those end users and their backward compatability needs, who needs them.


fwiw, I've forced myself (and it has taken quite a bit of force!) to render stems of EVERY project output (WIP or Mix) that I do. I use a composing template (nothing loaded, just tonnes of routing and the like) that helps with this. The stems are not by default each and every track, but usually around 16 all up. On some occasions I *do* render each and every track depending on the type of project / what might happen to it in the future. Its great to be able to do this with only a few button clicks (and macros + nuendos export paradigm really really help)

There are just too many occasions where one needs to go back 5 years and grab something, only to realise a plugin no longer works (or you just didn't install it on your last upgrade and can't find it / struggle to install / whatever!).

This has the added benefit of being able to share things quickly with other people who do not use the same tools as you.

Quick story... I visited a sound post house recently & saw they were running an OS that was 6 years old (security risk!) and they had not touched ANY upgrades of any kind for 4 years... they would never pass the Netflix requirements for security / IT setup (I would hate to be the tech having to deal with that!)


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## kitekrazy (Oct 29, 2022)

Life moves on. Alchemy still works for Windows but so many synths have come out that there is no reason for me to keep it installed along with the libraries.

I remember after upgrading Gigastudio 4 they dropped it a month later and their support was terrible and had to rely on a member here to help me out..

The beauty of Windows is all of my legacy M-Audio products work fine. Part of it is some developers write good code to keep a product alive.

I can see there is no point keeping Trash and Iris around since there is so much competition out there and the same with EA reverbs. 

I'm less of a fan of these bundles with different developers since the licensing it not the same.


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## David Kudell (Oct 29, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Music made with a mac sounds more melancholic and stressful since the composer knows there's an os update coming and his old plugins will stop working soon


This is true, although one benefit is Mac users actually finish their tracks as opposed to Windows users who just get sidetracked by playing PC games.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 29, 2022)

I haven't been following iZotope's products since it acquired Exponential. Can someone catch me up on what they're doing with Exponential's tech?

The only reverb related plugin they have now seems to be Neoverb. Is that where all of the reverb magic went? I don't even see a mention of Atmos on that one. Or have they not yet released something new to supposedly replace the Exponential reverbs?

Edit: I see they didn't discontinue all of the Exponentials but boy are they hard to find on the website. Don't show up under their "all plugins" page so I have to either go to the specific Exponential Audio page or find it in the shop page. Seems to me like those won't last too long.


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## samphony (Oct 29, 2022)

Pier said:


> Apple is so bad at backwards compatibility. They just don't care. If you're not running the latest OS you're dead to them.


They’re obsessed with security which has priority over backwards compatibility.


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## ptram (Oct 29, 2022)

It looks like iZotope Neoverb (based on Exponential Audio algorithms) can be purchase on Plugin-Alliance with the current voucher. So, at least some parts of R4 are safe, even if under a different look and with new features.

Paolo


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## David Kudell (Oct 29, 2022)

When I log in to the iZotope upgrades page, I see the option to upgrade to Stratus for $49 and Symphony for $79. So at least there's that.


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## Technostica (Oct 29, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> When I log in to the iZotope upgrades page, I see the option to upgrade to Stratus for $49 and Symphony for $79. So at least there's that.


Since Izotope started bundling them both with their suites, you can buy a bundle of both of them for about $70 at the usual places. 
So these have also been heavily devalued, although not nearly as much as the decommissioned stuff.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 29, 2022)

samphony said:


> They’re obsessed with security which has priority over backwards compatibility.


They’re obsessed with making people buy new hardware and accessories as often as possible, too.


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## Pier (Oct 29, 2022)

samphony said:


> They’re obsessed with security which has priority over backwards compatibility.


All software companies care about security. End users live in the fantasy that Apple is somehow better at security and privacy but it's really just marketing.

To give you a very real example, just a couple of weeks ago someone hacked my father's Apple account and succeeded to take over 3 of 4 Apple devices. Then they proceeded to delete the account along with all his iCloud content. Apple did nothing to prevent this. No alarms at Apple rang when a user from a strange country/IP proceeded to do something quite irreversible that is trivial to detect. Apple didn't even ask for a confirmation to delete his account via email or phone. Heck, Apple didn't even notify my father that his account was being deleted.

My father called Apple and was told there was nothing to be done. If he could provide proof of purchase maybe they would unlock the devices for him remotely. He only found the invoice for 1 device and now the other two are forever linked to the hacker's iCloud account. You think maybe Apple would delete the hacker's account, but again they did absolutely nothing.

Think about that before trusting your life to Apple. Thank god my father never used iCloud's Keychain otherwise all his passwords would have been compromised.

To reiterate my point, here's another massive security bug from just a couple of days ago that allowed malicious apps to eavesdrop conversations through Siri.









‘SiriSpy’ iOS bug allowed apps to eavesdrop on your Siri conversations before fix


Apple released iOS 16.1 and macOS Ventura to the public this week. In addition to headlining new features and changes, there are also essential security fixes as well. One of the most notable fixes is for a bug that allowed applications to eavesdrop on your conversations with Siri. Here are the...




9to5mac.com





Oh and btw backwards compat has nothing to do with security. It's just that Apple is obsessed with E2E control. They have cornered certain markets so they know devs will abide because of course end users will blame the developers (like in the case of iZotope here).


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## Pier (Oct 30, 2022)

Rereading this thread I think I might have come across as an Apple hater which I'm not. I own a number of Apple products and I'm writing this from an iMac 5K.

I'm also planning to buy a MBP 14'' with an M1 Pro chip for my dev/design work. I don't need the portability but I do need to refresh my main work machine. And I miss being able to code anywhere in the house. I certainly don't love the iOSification of macOS but Apple laptops are still the best in the market.

If I had to build a pro sound/music studio based on a desktop machine(s) today I would definitely go with Windows and a crossplatform DAW that doesn't tie me to a single platform.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 31, 2022)

Pier said:


> Rereading this thread I think I might have come across as an Apple hater which I'm not.


Well, you're coming over as an Apple hater indeed, and I am probably coming over as an Apple fanboy while I am using both also! I actually writing this message from a PC! 

While I use PC for certain things that Apple sucks, such as 3D Graphics, Unreal Engine etc, I will never use a PC for audio.
I much prefer macOS for that. Logic which I use only exists there, Digital Performer is more stable, Core Audio is much better than the crap audio system windows uses, the aggregation functions alone worth it. Certain things like quick look make it easy for me to find sounds, and a million other things.

As you can see, is probably a preference for each of us, and I respect each composers opinion to use whatever they feel comfortable, or make sense for their budget.

Both platforms are equally great, with pros and cons on each. Enforcing our opinion doesn't make much sense.

I personally don't care about cost (which can be debated these days with crazy DDR5 cost, graphics cards costing 2.5K, motherboards with decent connectivity costing 1K, or monitors that cost as much but they are not near to the quality of the XDR displays), and I value stability and the user experience more.

Apple does a lot of weird things, and I dislike a lot of them, but we are not forced to buy or use their stuff.

I don't care about backwards compatibility also. I am strategically updating from 2004 my systems, went through the PowerPC -> Intel transition and now from Intel -> Arm, and never had a problem. Time Machine also is another layer someone can use to roll back in case the update doesn't end well.
The general rule for audio is stay one OS back from the current one. It's in most cases the same for PC, it's taking some time for people to move to Windows 11.


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## AudioLoco (Oct 31, 2022)

It's funny that over at Gearspace.com there is rule that prohibits any PC vs Mac debate, it's "strictly forbidden".


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 31, 2022)

Pier said:


> Rereading this thread I think I might have come across as an Apple hater which I'm not. I own a number of Apple products and I'm writing this from an iMac 5K.
> 
> I'm also planning to buy a MBP 14'' with an M1 Pro chip for my dev/design work. I don't need the portability but I do need to refresh my main work machine. And I miss being able to code anywhere in the house. I certainly don't love the iOSification of macOS but Apple laptops are still the best in the market.
> 
> If I had to build a pro sound/music studio based on a desktop machine(s) today I would definitely go with Windows and a crossplatform DAW that doesn't tie me to a single platform.


Nah. Being critical of Apple shouldn't be considered as being "a hater" - that would say more about anyone thinking that than it would of you. 

I'm also critical of Apple and Microsoft. They're companies that want my money, not my friends. I use products from both, and both have a variety of issues.


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## cedricm (Oct 31, 2022)

styphonthal said:


> This makes me sad: I love using trash for mild and crazy distortion. IRIS 2 also doesn't really have any competitors for what it does. I also still use the EA reverbs.


Trash is a highly underestimated plug in.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 31, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Trash is a highly underestimated plug in.


Sure, but does @Trash Panda like it?


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 31, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> It's funny that over at Gearspace.com there is rule that prohibits any PC vs Mac debate, it's "strictly forbidden".


To be fair, when you see the vitriol that is often allowed there, allowing a Mac vs PC debate would be the forum equivalent of using nuclear weapons.....


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## Trash Panda (Oct 31, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Trash is a highly underestimated plug in.


You’re a highly underrated plugin!


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## Alchemedia (Oct 31, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> You’re a highly underrated plugin!


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 5, 2022)

I'd be alright getting Stratus and Symphony for free, since I never really wanted them, and Neoverb isn't a replacement for R4/Nimbus by any means. I don't think Izotope offers glitch sales that cut that deep, however.

It's really too bad that after I gave my Neoverb license away a few days ago, I received a followup email asking me to rate my customer service experience. These rating and comments often affect bonuses or pay, or employment, for the customer service agent. It's too bad there is not a feedback system in place with the same set of consequences for whoever is responsible for their website, their plugin design, and their business philosophy. If those attributes of Izotope were half as good as the customer service their agents provided, I might actually care if they still existed tomorrow.


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 5, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> I received a followup email asking me to rate my customer service experience. These rating and comments often affect bonuses or pay, or employment, for the customer service agent.


That's a very good point, and a sad fact. 
Company does crazy things outside the agent's control, and they have the agents to deal with the outcry, which at the end affects their pay. 

How that make sense...


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## doctoremmet (Nov 5, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


>


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 5, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> I'd be alright getting Stratus and Symphony for free, since I never really wanted them, and Neoverb isn't a replacement for R4/Nimbus by any means. I don't think Izotope offers glitch sales that cut that deep, however.


Alright, I'm feeling a bit undeservedly entitled here, considering I paid a total of $60 for Nimbus and R4 compared to others here who paid for them at full price. But is the reskin on the surround versions a visual promise that Izotope isn't going to Neoverb them into another stripped down combo reverb and discontinue them, too? That's what I worry about... doesn't matter much anyway as I'm mostly using Cinematic Rooms and I'm on Windows :/


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 7, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> Alright, I'm feeling a bit undeservedly entitled here, considering I paid a total of $60 for Nimbus and R4 compared to others here who paid for them at full price. But is the reskin on the surround versions a visual promise that Izotope isn't going to Neoverb them into another stripped down combo reverb and discontinue them, too? That's what I worry about... doesn't matter much anyway as I'm mostly using Cinematic Rooms and I'm on Windows :/


Save your money to upgrade to CRP or get Tai Chi  

Really, though, you already have CR and R4 and Nimbus. I'd just keep using those 3 fantastic reverbs. If R4 and Nimbus stop working some day, then that's a tomorrow-problem you can solve, and there'll be even better reverbs out.


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 7, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> upgrade to CRP or get Tai Chi


I own them_ _👄 and they've mostly retired the EA reverbs. What I haven't done though is set up multiple sends or a child send routing out to multiple parallel tail-only reverbs, as a way to get that depth-y parallel tail stack with an easier workflow. And that would be a great time to use Nimbus/R4 since I still think their tails are great


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