# QL Solo Violin in Bach (!)



## Erik (Feb 2, 2012)

http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/Bach/BachViolinSonataI-QL-sv.mp3 (There is a new MP3 version available now.) You might just skip listening to the one herebelow. (Some just fainted).

Hi,

I have made a http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/Bach/BachViolinSonataI.mp3 (mockup of (a fragment of) the first violin sonata of J.S.Bach) with only the NV sustain patch of the new Solo Violin product of EWQL. I tried to make it sound in the baroque tradition performance (hence the Non Vibrato).

I know that this product isn't meant for this kind of music, but however it was nice to try.

Verb used: Solo Violin Concert 2 (as part of this library). I used extensive attack automation in Cubase. Furthermore some mastering with Alloy and 112Redline EQ. That's it.

Here and there I hear some false looping points (very softly). Trills were quite hard to make actually. But nevertheless.................


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## Dan Mott (Feb 2, 2012)

I played violin for 6 years and I was fortunate enough to have a violin that was owned by one of the musicians in the Sydney Symphony orchestra, not that THAT matters, but alot of times in this piece, it doesn't even sound like a violin. Sometimes it sounds like a really thin accordion. From listening to this piece, I didn't feel BACH, I felt like I was sitting down at a french restaurant.

....

As my final word. To my ears, there is something that is very weird about this particular violin. To some it sounds like a violin, to me it doesn't at alot of times. I understand that realism is tough for this type of thing, but realism doesn't matter to me as much as tone. The tone of this violin.... I can't describe it. From listening to two demos so far, I'm finding it very difficult to make my self like it. I'm trying to give it a go and from this demo, not blaming you, but it's confirmed that the tone is not for me.

I must be missing something here that I clearly do not know.

For example, If HS sounds so good (which it does), and the legato sounds good, then why can't Nick record the violin the exact same way HS was recorded, but the only difference is just one player? To me, this sounds like it could work, but someone please enlighten me in case I'm very wrong. It's just as if Nick recorded a string ensemble, but sent each violin to a different mixer channel and pressed the solo button on one player???

Also, looking at the articulations list, it's based on the same type of style that SO was in, which is infact quite a nightmare to work with. For example, you've got heaps of articulations for legato, when really you should have 3. There's all these patches like - sus vib/expresson FST and so on which makes it very tedious and uncontrollable for the user. You also end up with loads of unnecessary midi channels.

Also, if I'm correct, you have two volume controls on some patches, which is CC11 for volume and CC1 for patch changing and sample crossfading. This would also be a nightmare because if CC11 controls volume and the CC1 dynamic sample fading isn't actually 'dynamic', then you will have to make your own volumes and work out an accurate change in dynamics by unrealistically guessing.

I don't understand why Nick couldn't have taken the same approach as HS, where the user has control over vibrato and C11 separatly. There is nothing worse than using a patch that has built in vibrato and expression and you cannot do it in your own way. When you have a patch that has no control over vibrato, then the user cannot get the type of emotion and playing style they want to achieve. I feel Nick could have done a much better job IMO.


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## Christof (Feb 2, 2012)

I agree with Dan-Jay, it sounds very unrealistic and synthetic, sorry to say that, but I would never buy this library after listening to this piece.
It is also a myth that string players never use vibrato in baroque music, many people don't know that.
Generally it is very problematic to create mock ups with solo strings.


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## lux (Feb 2, 2012)

i kinda think this thread should be in the members review section


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## rayinstirling (Feb 2, 2012)

Yesterday I listened to another demo that made me feel very interested in the product.

Today I'm reminded, it's just a tool.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 2, 2012)

What's up with the stereo imaging? Something funky is going on there....


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## JPQ (Feb 2, 2012)

Sounds really awfull.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 2, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> For example, If HS sounds so good (which it does), and the legato sounds good, then why can't Nick record the violin the exact same way HS was recorded, but the only difference is just one player?



Speaking in general, with a full section it's pretty easy to crossfade different dynamic layers (or otherwise layer multiple samples). With a solo instrument that's much trickier because of potential phasing issues and just being able to tell that you're hearing more than one recording at a time. Not that that's necessarily why you're not liking what you're hearing, just why using the same sampling technique for sections and solos might not work so well.


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> I don't understand why Nick couldn't have taken the same approach as HS, where the user has control over vibrato and C11 separatly. There is nothing worse than using a patch that has built in vibrato and expression and you cannot do it in your own way. When you have a patch that has no control over vibrato, then the user cannot get the type of emotion and playing style they want to achieve. I feel Nick could have done a much better job IMO.


Have you ever tried cross fading a vibrato and non-vibrato solo patch? With traditional sampling it just doesn't work. I agree that there are many things that the performer needs control over, but unless you use a hybrid, as Samplemodeling does, you are going to be stuck with copious patch changing in order to get what you want. Even then, if the patch wasn't recorded, you can't do it.

This sort of stuff only works with ensembles because the small idiosyncrasies that are obvious with solo players are ironed out with a group. Therefore you don't get the same level of detail, and the perceived doubling up of players in the crossover points, both of which are so obvious with solo instruments.

D


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## Dan Mott (Feb 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand why Nick couldn't have taken the same approach as HS, where the user has control over vibrato and C11 separatly. There is nothing worse than using a patch that has built in vibrato and expression and you cannot do it in your own way. When you have a patch that has no control over vibrato, then the user cannot get the type of emotion and playing style they want to achieve. I feel Nick could have done a much better job IMO.
> ...



Ahh, interesting.

Shame that's how it is.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 2, 2012)

Yeah - the stereo image is not correct. Here is another demo for the SO forum:

http://soundcloud.com/askmusic/suite-for-violin


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## quantum7 (Feb 2, 2012)

Erik @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have made a http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/Bach/BachViolinSonataI.mp3 (mockup of (a fragment of) the first violin sonata of J.S.Bach) with only the NV sustain patch of the new Solo Violin product of EWQL. I tried to make it sound in the baroque tradition performance (hence the Non Vibrato).
> .



WOW!!!! :shock: That does sound like an accordion.....awful! :?


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## reddognoyz (Feb 2, 2012)

that second demo sounds pretty good. I mentioned that before, but I think the demo that started this link isn't a good way to show of this violin VI


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## Hanu_H (Feb 2, 2012)

I think all the short articulations sound really good in the second demo. But I would like to hear more expression and bow noise in the sustains and legatos.


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## jtenney (Feb 2, 2012)

@Dan-Jay: I think your assessment is absolutely right. I would have said "melodica" for the tone, but that's a small point. I have been playing that particular Bach piece for more than 50 years--literally--and I have to say that this version almost made me queasy. You're right, Dan, there ain't a lot of Bach there... @riffwraith: Quite a lot better sound to my ear, and more "violinistic," except for the weird chorusing effect (is that a soundcloud artifact?) I think the lesson, as pointed out here and elsewhere, is that solo string instruments are tricky, and solo libraries will continue to be problematic. The more demos people do and share (along with their techniques, hopefully), the better.

later,
John


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## Erik (Feb 2, 2012)

Hey guys (no ladies here?),

I will make tomorrow some new tracks, no further EQ etc., with other patches from this library, OK? Maybe it was dangerous to start with this version. Simple as that.

I can understand many points mentioned here. So, be patient please.


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## Hans Adamson (Feb 2, 2012)

Hello Erik,

I think you did a great job with this Bach piece. Musical, and you have a real understanding of how this music is played on the violin. What weakens the demo is the lack of attack on individual notes and swells that are too slow for the music, but I still enjoyed it.
/Hans


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## rayinstirling (Feb 2, 2012)

Hans Adamson @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Hello Erik,
> 
> I think you did a great job with this Bach piece. Musical, and you have a real understanding of how this music is played on the violin. What weakens the demo is the lack of attack on individual notes and swells that are too slow for the music, but I still enjoyed it.
> /Hans



Now there is a contradiction! Your first two sentences then the last.
Hans, you developed wonderful piano libraries. No matter how good they are I, as someone having ten thumbs and not enough lessons will never get the best out of them likewise, any other library including the one featured here can sound great in the right hands and pretty ordinary if not. My comment here isn't to single out Erik but the many including myself who from time to time blame the tools for our own inadequacies.


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## Christof (Feb 2, 2012)

Hans Adamson @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Hello Erik,
> 
> I think you did a great job with this Bach piece. Musical, and you have a real understanding of how this music is played on the violin. What weakens the demo is the lack of attack on individual notes and swells that are too slow for the music, but I still enjoyed it.
> /Hans



sorry, but a violinist would NEVER EVER play like that, there is NO music in this demo, just one note after another, sorry to say that, but there has to be a certain level of quality before publishing on a forum that is crowded by so many gifted and talented people with excellent ears.


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 2, 2012)

Here we go, you can't get much better than this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfi0gxL6_Y


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## Erik (Feb 3, 2012)

Christof @ Thu 02 Feb said:


> sorry, but a violinist would NEVER EVER play like that, there is NO music in this demo, just one note after another, sorry to say that, but there has to be a certain level of quality before publishing on a forum that is crowded by so many gifted and talented people with excellent ears.



Hi there,
I havehttp://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/Bach/BachViolinSonataI-QL-sv.mp3 (updated the QL version) with all possible and relevant patches this time. So it should have more of a violin this time (so it will not sound like a soprano ocarina most definitely). I have taken care for spare use of the non vibrato. With gut strings the non vibrato sound would have been better, I guess. This first version was just a quick mockup with a certain risk (as I have noticed afterwards).

I hope that the crowd of all those gifted and talented people with excellent ears can suffer this new version. Just for the sake of comparison of quality levels of different libraries themselves you could http://eotte.blogspot.com/2012/02/bach-violin-sonata-no1-adagio.html (follow the link to this blog), where I have made the same performance with Spitfire and LASS.

Anyway this new version does more justice to this new QL product I think, which was actually more of my concern btw.


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## George Caplan (Feb 3, 2012)

good try Eric and thanks for your time in this challenge.

if you were to put that up to non musicians if you like or persons that dont play or whatever you want to call it. they would think that was a violin.

unfortunately these days and especially when youre on a forum like this that is very discerning about sound in general. the library manufacturer is going to be up against it especially if simply trying to sell this on price because a 100 buck or 500 buck violin is still going to sound either good or poor and then its a case of who cares then what the price is? listeners might say thats a crappy sounding violin and arent really going to care if theyre then told...well it only cost a 100 bucks.


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## Christof (Feb 3, 2012)

This sounds much more violin like than before!! :D
No more accordeon!
Well done.


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 3, 2012)

It may sound more like a violin than the previous version, but it is still nowhere near being convincing. 

I can understand wanting to produce an entire orchestra, but why does anyone want to do this with a soloist. I know plenty of music school students who could play this sonata well and would perform it for any production (modest fee paid of course). Check out your local music college.

Or have I missed the point?


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## Christof (Feb 3, 2012)

exactly my thoughts, it is not very useful to produce mock ups with sampled solo strings, because they don't sound realistic, even far away from that, it would make more sense ito add this solo violin (or two-three) to a whole violin section as additional layer.
By the way, VSL has sampled excellent solo strings, there is a really good mock up of Beethovens String quartet http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoId=5236


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 3, 2012)

Now that does sound convincing to me, I would happily use this sound quality in my video productions. How much is it, or would it be cheaper to hire the Guarneri Quartet :D


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## MoonFlare (Feb 3, 2012)

Vincent Oliver @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Here we go, you can't get much better than this
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfi0gxL6_Y



This is noise.


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 3, 2012)

It may be noise to your ears, but music to others 8)


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## Christof (Feb 3, 2012)

music is noise, but this is beautiful noise :wink:


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## MoonFlare (Feb 3, 2012)

Vincent Oliver @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> It may be noise to your ears, but music to others 8)



Absolutely, and I will not argue against that. For me, however, it's all about melody. You are, of course, entitled to think that the melody in the linked piece is great, but I don't necessarily agree. 

Why is The Four Seasons one of the most popular classical pieces (concerts). Guess once, and you'll probably be spot on.


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## Rob (Feb 3, 2012)

I think this piece is full of melodies, but again to each his own...


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 3, 2012)

I agree that the four seasons is a superb composition full of melody. Bach is a totally different style. Think of Bach as the Main Course and Vivaldi as the Ice Cream. Both have their place.

To refer to Hilary Hahn's Bach as "This is noise" is just a troll statement and maybe just shows your lack of musical understanding.

Have a nice day


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## jtenney (Feb 4, 2012)

Wow. Guy Bacal's rendering of the Beethoven quartet with VSL is by FAR the best string realization I've heard yet. It is extremely musical. Comes the closest to real chamber music as it might be performed. Of course Mr. Bacal may have sweated many many hours over it, but the final result is worth it, if you want proof that such music is possible. Kudos!

later,
John


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## Rob (Feb 4, 2012)

Rob @ 3rd February 2012 said:


> I think this piece is full of melodies, but again to each his own...



just to clarify... I was talking about Bach sonata, not Vivaldi (who I love as well).


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 4, 2012)

Rob, My comments were pointed at Mr MoonFlare. I did assume that you were referring to the Bach video.

jtenney, I totally agree with you, the Beethoven quartet created with VSL is outstanding. Must find out more about this.

Forgive me for being naive, but how do you get the quartet notes in to a DAW, I assume it must be with a midi keyboard, but there are so many subtleties in the bow strokes, double stopping etc. Are the notes entered in first and then worked on with an application. 

I am new to all of this virtual music and need a starting point. Although I do play the violin.


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## Christof (Feb 4, 2012)

Actually you can download the presets and midi file of the Beethoven rendering, just click on 'Download Tutorial' or follow this link:
http://dl.vsl.co.at/downloader.aspx?ID=5663

but to get the real thing you should own the VSL solo Strings...which are probably the best solo strings out there at the moment.


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## Belosound (Feb 4, 2012)

All samples

Vivaldi:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... ID=6959616

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... ID=7687970

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=7411555

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=8154306


Paganini:

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6768690

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6784227


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 4, 2012)

That Paganini Caprice No 5 must have taken you hours to key in. If a real violinist was to play it at this speed I am sure his violin would catch fire. :D


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## Rob (Feb 4, 2012)

Belosound @ 4th February 2012 said:


> All samples
> 
> Vivaldi:
> 
> ...



not bad...


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## dpasdernick (Feb 4, 2012)

jtenney @ Sat Feb 04 said:


> Wow. Guy Bacal's rendering of the Beethoven quartet with VSL is by FAR the best string realization I've heard yet. It is extremely musical. Comes the closest to real chamber music as it might be performed. Of course Mr. Bacal may have sweated many many hours over it, but the final result is worth it, if you want proof that such music is possible. Kudos!
> 
> later,
> John



Rumor has it that he played it all in real time with his left hand, eating a bowl of soup with the other hand, all the while watching reality TV... The dude is amazing. I, myself, could not do it with the TV on...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 5, 2012)

MoonFlare @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Vincent Oliver @ Fri Feb 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Here we go, you can't get much better than this
> ...



dude... :roll:


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## MoonFlare (Feb 7, 2012)

Vincent Oliver @ Sat Feb 04 said:


> To refer to Hilary Hahn's Bach as "This is noise" is just a troll statement and maybe just shows your lack of musical understanding.



Seriously? You are not a little bit too sensitive here? I genuinely believe what I heard is noise. I can appreciate the very skilled player and the expertise needed to create such a piece, but musically I think it is noise. This contradicts what you believe obviously as your reply indicates that you got slightly offended by this. If you had been the violinist or the composer of the piece, I would probably not written this with respect for your work or performance. However, neither have you composed the piece, and you are probably not the player in the video. Some would say: "this is great", others like me: "this is noise". Would it actually be better if I wrote: "this sounds really bad". Is that a troll statement too!? Is it a troll statement because I don't acknowledge what you like? It's just one opinion. Don't be so sensitive. The trolls apparently come from Norway, right? Believe me, I know when I see something that has to do with trolls. And this ain't it!


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## MoonFlare (Feb 7, 2012)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sun Feb 05 said:


> MoonFlare @ Fri Feb 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Vincent Oliver @ Fri Feb 03 said:
> ...



What!?


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 7, 2012)

MoonFlare @ Tue Feb 07 said:


> Vincent Oliver @ Sat Feb 04 said:
> 
> 
> > To refer to Hilary Hahn's Bach as "This is noise" is just a troll statement and maybe just shows your lack of musical understanding.
> ...



Perhaps Troll was a bit harsh and I apologize. Noise is perhaps not the best description, maybe we will just accept that you don't like Bach, Hilary Hahn, the violin or some forms of classical music. 

Whatever, let's not fallout over this matter.

Love Vincent x


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## MoonFlare (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi, 



Vincent Oliver @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Here we go, you can't get much better than this



I feel that this is probably as strong as an opinion than what I expressed. Just the "other way around". It may be that you referred exclusively to how a real violin should sound. Still, I don't think the sounds produced by the violin in this piece is very beautiful. The violin can sometimes sound harsh. In particular in fast pieces, like this. Again; my point of view.



Vincent Oliver @ Tue Feb 07 said:


> MoonFlare @ Tue Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Vincent Oliver @ Sat Feb 04 said:
> ...



I feel that the word _noise_ is perhaps perceived a little too negative here. The word does not necessarily need a deeper interpretation other than expressing the fact that something is not pleasant to ones senses. Anyway, I understand that _noise_ may appear as a bad choice of word in some contexts (including this). I'm sorry about that. I should perhaps have chosen a different word initially. (That said, I sometimes believe that people are too sensitive.)

As a final note, I definitely don't like some forms of classical music. What defines a great composer/orchestrator, in my view, is her/his ability to invent inspiring themes and melodies (of course with the added accompaniment of harmonies and rhythms). As an example, John Williams is a master of creating such catchy themes. He is also highly capable of progressively building up tension in a piece for it to be "released" with a great theme. This theme may even last as little as five to ten seconds. Nevertheless, it creates something special and soulful.

Under is a link to a performance that I like. Here I believe that the timbre of the violin is more smooth, dynamic and pleasant. And, the violinist is Norwegian, and the concert is from The Four Seasons. Hehe. Anyway, take care!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g65oWFMSoK0


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## Markus S (Feb 9, 2012)

Vincent Oliver @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Here we go, you can't get much better than this
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfi0gxL6_Y



I beg to differ, I think she plays it too mechanically, too technical. It sounds like a Kreutzer Etude. I wish the playing had more soul to it.


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## Vincent Oliver (Feb 10, 2012)

Oh No, Marcus not another critic for Hilary's playing.

I am not going to go down this route again, other than saying you're opinion is your own and as such it is valid.

I will just put my ear phones on and enjoy her playing.


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