# El Capitan update: solution for restart problem, USB suggestions



## JohnG (Aug 16, 2016)

Hi all,

I was wondering how much of my software is going to break with El Capitan. I assume not much but here's the main list:

-- Finale 2014.5
-- Sibelius 6
-- MidiOverLAN CP
-- Digital Performer 9.x
-- Kontakt 5
-- Omnisphere 2.x
-- Zebra 2.x and Dark Zebra
-- VE Pro 5.x
-- PLAY
-- G-Player 2.1.0


That's most of it; I have an ancient MOTU midi interface (hardware) and a rather old version of NI's plugins (Absynth etc.) but I guess if I have to I can replace / upgrade that stuff.

I'm about to be in that rare spot where I can do this, so am keen to move fast if it's going to happen. I don't want to put it off much longer lest there be another version of the Mac OS on the way in September.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Kind regards,

John


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## macmac (Aug 16, 2016)

I can vouch for Kontakt and Omnisphere working. However I am a little sorry I upgraded because I get the beach ball more than I did with Yosemite, and Safari seems slower on most days. Now it's just too much trouble to roll back, but for the most part it is OK here.


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## synthpunk (Aug 16, 2016)

Minimum requirements for Uhe Zebra 2 and HZ is OSX 10.5 or newer. Not sure what Zebra 3 will be.

Omni 2 • OSX 10.9 Mavericks or higher


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## Matt Riley (Aug 16, 2016)

I've had issues with the Motu Ultralite mk3 after upgrading to El Capitan.


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## nas (Aug 17, 2016)

Kontakt 5, Play 4.2.2, MOTU drivers, VE Pro 5 and 6, LP X, and all my audio plugins are working very well on El Capitan. Much more stable and efficient than Mavericks or Yosemite for me.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 17, 2016)

Matt Riley said:


> I've had issues with the Motu Ultralite mk3 after upgrading to El Capitan.


Just the man I needed to hear from-that's my interface. What issues, please?


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## babylonwaves (Aug 17, 2016)

Matt Riley said:


> I've had issues with the Motu Ultralite mk3 after upgrading to El Capitan.


both motu audio and MIDI drivers are listed compatible to 10.11 - no problems here with an 828x. i think it is important to mention from which version the macOS update was done. 10.10 -> 10.11 seems to be really easy. but the earlier the version is you upgrade from the higher the chances becomes that you need to re-install things, especially drivers and system components.
i've using 10.11 since about february and so far i got no complains.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 17, 2016)

Well, I'm on Mountain Lion 10.85 and for a hot minute I was considering trying to move to El Cap, but now I'm leery.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 17, 2016)

Hi John,

I can confirm the following are working on El Capitan:

-- Kontakt 5
-- Zebra 2.x and Dark Zebra
-- VE Pro 5.x

I do not have PLAY on my Mac (it's on my PC slave), but I can confirm that QL Spaces works just fine on El Capitan. Also, Sibelius 8 works OK, but I cannot confirm Sibelius 6.

Best,
Marc

PS - UAD Apollo Twin Duo is my interface and I have not had any problems with it.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Aug 17, 2016)

I do use some of your tools which all run fine including: Sibelius 8.5, Kontakt 5, Omnisphere 2.x, Zebra 2.x and Dark Zebra, VE Pro 6 and PLAY




JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I was wondering how much of my software is going to break with El Capitan. I assume not much but here's the main list:
> 
> ...


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## Ashermusic (Aug 17, 2016)

I have lots and lots of stuff, including Logic Pro X, VE Pro 6, Kontakt, Play, UVI Workstation, Best Service, Spectrasonics, UAD, etc. and it is all fine here in El Cap.


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## gsilbers (Aug 17, 2016)

I think pro tools HD 9 will not work on el capitan. I have pthd9 and still using it on Yosemite. but afraid on jumping to el capitan and loose it.


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## samphony (Aug 17, 2016)

Did you do a clean install or upgrade?



nas said:


> Kontakt 5, Play 4.2.2, MOTU drivers, VE Pro 5 and 6, LP X, and all my audio plugins are working very well on El Capitan. Much more stable and efficient than Mavericks or Yosemite for me.


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## nas (Aug 17, 2016)

samphony said:


> Did you do a clean install or upgrade?



I did an upgrade.


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## Matt Riley (Aug 17, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> Just the man I needed to hear from-that's my interface. What issues, please?


I use the interface (latest diver, firmware) for live use only using Ableton Live 9. The motu will suddenly disconnect for no apparent reason. Then I have to unplug/plug the usb cable and hope that it works again. And sometimes it doesn't work again. What I mean is, I plug the cable in, the software takes forever to load, and when it does Ableton Live will not playback. I try turning off the interface and restarting my computer. Same problem. The only thing that fixes this is reinstalling the driver. This happens while I'm on stage in performance.

I never had this issue before updating to El Capitan. I was running Mavericks with no issue. It is also happening to my guitar player on his computer with El Capitan and the Motu. When I have my synth player run Ableton from his computer running Mavericks, he has no problems.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 17, 2016)

Hmmm. So, Ableton or MOTU? I'm on Cubase 6. I guess I'll have to go haunt the MOTU forum, something I've rarely done. Thanks.


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## Matt Riley (Aug 17, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> Hmmm. So, Ableton or MOTU? I'm on Cubase 6. I guess I'll have to go haunt the MOTU forum, something I've rarely done. Thanks.


Also hot-plugging seems to cause the driver to freeze. If I unplug the interface and then after a minute plug it in again, I can't get playback in Ableton or Logic X. I select the driver in audio preferences but no sound comes out. I'm on hold with MOTU tech support now. I've already been waiting an hour.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 17, 2016)

By the way, are you using USB or FireWire?


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## mc_deli (Aug 17, 2016)

JohnG said:


> -- Sibelius 6


Sibelius 6.2.0 working fine under 10.11.6


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## JohnG (Aug 17, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> I think pro tools HD 9 will not work on el capitan.



you are correct, sir. My PT rig is on another computer


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## JohnG (Aug 17, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> By the way, are you using USB or FireWire?



My midi interface is USB but I have an old 2408mk3 audio interface with that MOTU quasi-firewire type connection. I will be surprised if it works.


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## storyteller (Aug 17, 2016)

JohnG said:


> you are correct, sir. My PT rig is on another computer



No version of Protools is free from bugs on El Capitan at the moment. Actually, this week I've decided to sunset Protools after 16 years with it as my primary DAW in favor of Reaper - which has blown me away with its feature set. 

(There were also some eMagic years with Logic, Cubase, Cakewalk, and an obscure year with Samplitude - before PT upped its midi game...)


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## WindcryMusic (Aug 19, 2016)

I've held back on upgrading to El Capitan because of reported issues with Apogee Duet 2 (USB) and similar cards. To date I have not seen anything from Apogee that suggests they have done anything to address this. Does anyone know differently?


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## storyteller (Aug 19, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> I've held back on upgrading to El Capitan because of reported issues with Apogee Duet 2 (USB) and similar cards. To date I have not seen anything from Apogee that suggests they have done anything to address this. Does anyone know differently?



I have a Quartet. It bugged out on me for a few days after the upgrade (disappearing and needing powering down and powering back up). I reinstalled the Apogee software, made sure the firmware was up to date and haven't had a problem since. Fixed? Umm..err.. maybe?  It is very stable now it seems...

Oh! Almost forgot. @JohnG - USB3 hubs seem to have sporadic issues. Plugging in directly to the ports work just fine, but I had to replace my main USB3 hub (un-powered) with a USB2 hub for iLoks, midi devices, etc due to it glitching out every few minutes.


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## Musicam (Aug 19, 2016)

When Apple will think in the users and the problems that gives a new OSX for the musicians and designers? Updates? The investement of a machine, the license of the software a node license key, iLok, when? I have two softwares off because this problem, Mavericks to Yosemite... etc... I hope that the company consider this question.


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## mc_deli (Aug 19, 2016)

storyteller said:


> Oh! Almost forgot. @JohnG - USB3 hubs seem to have sporadic issues. Plugging in directly to the ports work just fine, but I had to replace my main USB3 hub (un-powered) with a USB2 hub for iLoks, midi devices, etc due to it glitching out every few minutes.



Since 10.11.6 I have random USB3 issues - my SSD sample drives dismounting. One is plugged directly, one in a hub. They are both randomly dismounting. I can't narrow it down to any energy settings. Lots of users with same symptom. Seems an OSX thing but random. Happened for me on one of the Yosemite.x releases. I am going to change my SSD cases and see what happens. But it was fine under 10.11.5 :(


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## synergy543 (Aug 19, 2016)

JohnG said:


> My midi interface is USB but I have an old 2408mk3 audio interface with that MOTU quasi-firewire type connection. I will be surprised if it works.


I have the same gear and am also thinking of upgrading. 
Did you try? Does it work?


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## NYC Composer (Aug 19, 2016)

Matt Riley said:


> Also hot-plugging seems to cause the driver to freeze. If I unplug the interface and then after a minute plug it in again, I can't get playback in Ableton or Logic X. I select the driver in audio preferences but no sound comes out. I'm on hold with MOTU tech support now. I've already been waiting an hour.


Any resolution, Matt?

Also, I hear there's a new Cuemix version out- does anyone use that with an older interface like the Ultralite MK 3?


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## storyteller (Aug 19, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> Since 10.11.6 I have random USB3 issues - my SSD sample drives dismounting. One is plugged directly, one in a hub. They are both randomly dismounting. I can't narrow it down to any energy settings. Lots of users with same symptom. Seems an OSX thing but random. Happened for me on one of the Yosemite.x releases. I am going to change my SSD cases and see what happens. But it was fine under 10.11.5 :(



Do your USB3 drives by chance have extra USB ports on them? I run thunderbolt for everything except one redundant USB3 backup drive. It's raided to accommodate 12TB of extra redundancy (I normally wouldn't raid a backup otherwise). Point is though, from what I can tell, El Capitan caused the drive/enclosure to fail, which caused both drives to fail hard in it. I had to ship the whole unit back for warranty replacement because both drives fatally failed simultaneously. My best conclusion is that it hiccuped because the enclosure was a "hub" (2 extra USB3 ports on it). The replacement unit has worked fine though. Some other support pages mention the USB hub failures only happens with devices registered on earlier versions of OSX before upgrading.  Strange bug indeed.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 19, 2016)

I have a USB 3.0 SSD drive connected to my Mac Mini. It is constantly being rejected. I suspect the cheap USB 3.0 case I bought for it.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Aug 19, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> It is constantly being rejected.



is it plugged directly or by a hub?


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## Matt Riley (Aug 19, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> Any resolution, Matt?
> 
> Also, I hear there's a new Cuemix version out- does anyone use that with an older interface like the Ultralite MK 3?


MOTU tech support said they is some sort of unknown issue with my system and that I should reinstall El Capitan on an external drive and boot from that to see if the problem persists. I haven't had the chance to do that yet.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 19, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> is it plugged directly or by a hub?


Directly. Have tried different ports. No change.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 19, 2016)

Matt Riley said:


> MOTU tech support said they is some sort of unknown issue with my system and that I should reinstall El Capitan on an external drive and boot from that to see if the problem persists. I haven't had the chance to do that yet.


Thanks. Any updates would be appreciated. I'm thinking about a lower latency but less outputs Babyface Pro.


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## mc_deli (Aug 19, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> I have a USB 3.0 SSD drive connected to my Mac Mini. It is constantly being rejected. I suspect the cheap USB 3.0 case I bought for it.


My drives don't have extra hub ports. One is direct. One is through a hub. They have worked normally since last year.

From reading (a lot) how the OSX version handles USB power management seems to be the most likely source. Unfortunately I get ejects even when i remove all other peripherals.
So it's inconclusive.
I'll let you know if the new cases i got today change things.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 19, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> My drives don't have extra hub ports. One is direct. One is through a hub. They have worked normally since last year.
> 
> From reading (a lot) how the OSX version handles USB power management seems to be the most likely source. Unfortunately I get ejects even when i remove all other peripherals.
> So it's inconclusive.
> I'll let you know if the new cases i got today change things.


I'd appreciate it. It's come to the point where I don't count on the drive, and it's a darn 500 gig SSD.


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## JohnG (Aug 20, 2016)

storyteller said:


> @JohnG - USB3 hubs seem to have sporadic issues.



Thanks -- Pretty sure my USB is 2.0 but good to know about this. I'm cloning my Macintosh HD this morning prefatory to making the leap.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

John


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## samphony (Aug 20, 2016)

We've installed a new MacBook Pro/ Slate Raven MTI 2 setup in on of our studios yesterday. The Raven software and the display drivers have issues with 10.11.x luckily the Mac pros are 10.10.5 or below still.


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## JohnG (Aug 20, 2016)

synergy543 said:


> I have the same gear and am also thinking of upgrading.
> Did you try? Does it work?



Appears to be working but it's only about 10 minutes after the update. Certainly iTunes, which plays back through the interface, sounds fine.

My DAW audio goes out through the 2408mk3 to a ProTools interface and that is also working.

[edit: had an idiosyncratic headache with an old Kensington Mouseworks but got rid of the legacy version in Preferences and now it's all apparently working. Can't believe it. Now for the new DP upgrade!!!]


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## 5Lives (Aug 20, 2016)

Upgraded today and ran into the well-documented USB 3 issues. My Sabrent 10-port USB 3 hub is a bit useless now - the iLok and eLicenser sticks were not being recognized properly. Had to connected a USB 2 hub into the Sabrent and then the iLok / eLicenser into that to get it to work. Apparently the Anker hubs are the safest bet with El Capitan.


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## JohnG (Aug 21, 2016)

"alack a-day" as they used to say. 

Not having the USB problem (which appears pretty widespread) but I am having the "won't restart / won't shut down except manually" problem that is somewhat less widespread. I have to hold down the power button to turn off the computer and can't do a soft restart at all -- freezes with the screen still lit and the dock visible but doesn't proceed to shutdown even after a long time. 

Beavering through chat boards to see if there's a solution and trying to work out what software programs / extensions / kext files / preference files and all that I can jettison.

Music is working, so could be a lot worse, but still it's a bit disconcerting.

[edit: Avid suggests these steps if you have legacy software lurking: http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/...id-Audio-Interface-Driver-Components-Mac-OS-X ]


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## synthpunk (Aug 21, 2016)

Appreciate you pointing this out. I am still on usb2 hubs (seeing there just for backup drives and lower end peripherals), but was thinking about a usb3 hub.... Screeching brakes.



5Lives said:


> Upgraded today and ran into the well-documented USB 3 issues. My Sabrent 10-port USB 3 hub is a bit useless now - the iLok and eLicenser sticks were not being recognized properly. Had to connected a USB 2 hub into the Sabrent and then the iLok / eLicenser into that to get it to work. Apparently the Anker hubs are the safest bet with El Capitan.


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## JohnG (Aug 21, 2016)

Solution to non-restart (not as widespread as the USB problem according to my non-scientific survey, but still a pain):

http://appletoolbox.com/2015/10/mac-os-x-el-capitan-will-not-start-up-after-update-fix/

Here's the procedure this author outlined (worked for me although I didn't delete the PACE extensions even though they were unsigned, as I had just updated that software -- computer reboots fine now):

Open Terminal in /Applications/Utilities
Enter “system_profiler SPExtensionsDataType > ~/Desktop/kextList.txt” without the quotes and hit return(this will take a while to run).
There should now be a kextList.txt file on your desktop, open it and press both the “Apple(Command)” and “F” keys to bring up the find.
In the find field insert “Obtained from: Not Signed” Copy the destination to the .kext file to a list for use later. (Click next to cycle through all of them.) Example: /System/Library/Extensions/JMicronATA.kext
Browse your drive to /System/Library/Extensions and remove any of the unsigned kext files.
Reboot and you should be all set.


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## dcoscina (Aug 21, 2016)

storyteller said:


> I have a Quartet. It bugged out on me for a few days after the upgrade (disappearing and needing powering down and powering back up). I reinstalled the Apogee software, made sure the firmware was up to date and haven't had a problem since. Fixed? Umm..err.. maybe?  It is very stable now it seems...
> 
> Oh! Almost forgot. @JohnG - USB3 hubs seem to have sporadic issues. Plugging in directly to the ports work just fine, but I had to replace my main USB3 hub (un-powered) with a USB2 hub for iLoks, midi devices, etc due to it glitching out every few minutes.


Agreed. I had to replace a non powered USB 3 hub with a powered one. No issues since


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## synergy543 (Aug 21, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Appears to be working but it's only about 10 minutes after the update. Certainly iTunes, which plays back through the interface, sounds fine.


Thanks John. I owe you a glass of nice wine for being the guinea pig. Now, I'm ready to follow in your footsteps as that was my last hurdle.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 21, 2016)

Slightly OT- with hubs, interfaces, everything with a choice of bus powered or adapter powered, I choose the latter and get more stability. Obviously this isn't a choice for mobile rigs (which is an issue I need to address) but for my fixed rig it seems to be the way to go.


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## mc_deli (Aug 22, 2016)

Back to the disconnected USB drives. 
Reminder: I have been getting disconnects since upgrading to 10.11.6 even when one USB3 SSD is the only thing connected to the computer.

Possible causes reported elsewhere:
- USB power management - I don't think so. I had the same set up working for months. Ad I get the same ejects with just one drive attached to the USB bus
- the new OSX update - nah, I don't think so, other users report the same thing across all kinds of OS versions
- Mac power management - no, happens when running, I have all power management features off
- bus powered hubs/peripherals - not for me, though this might be a problem for others. I have had 8/9 USB devices connected via a mix of powered (TB dock) and unpowered (3-port hub) and not had the ejecting drive problems until a few weeks ago.
- Spotlight - no, I have my external disks all excluded from spotlight
- cheap case - well, maybe, I just changed cases and the new case doesn't eject!

... I am convinced it is the cable/connector. These external USB3 cases "all" use USB mini type B. And they are a bit rubbish:
"Mini USB has 5,000 cycle life while micro USB has 10,000 cycle life"

...And my latest test is that it is not the cable in my case. I get the same eject problem with a brand new cable with the old case.
I have probably done about 500 total plug in/outs with each drive. So that is very premature "failure" but makes sense to me. I carry them everywhere.

*So, my conclusion, in my mobile rMBP-based rig, it is the sockets on the cases.* The USB3 miniB sockets on the drive cases are not up to repeated plugging/unplugging. (Other people of course might have other issues)

My new cases are these http://www.lc-power.com/index.php?id=518 and have a rubber outer shell. That's great but the connector is still the same. So I think I am going have the same problem in future. :(


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