# Navigating the Hurricane (Dimension Brass demo)



## Guy Bacos (Feb 20, 2011)

Navigating the Hurricane


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## windshore (Feb 20, 2011)

well, it's ambitious at least!

It's rather unrealistic in the constant use of triple tonguing and endless phrases that would make live players pass out in packs.... besides they'd have walked out! - or maybe I'm underestimating European brass players. Ha!

Sorry, as a wind player I can't get over something that is unplayable when I listen, so everything else goes undigested.

No disrespect... and maybe others will have a much different take on it than me.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 20, 2011)

This is an option, easy to perform and effective as a sustained repetition note passage, a common technique, or for repeated passages difficult to play. Here are 2 examples from the piece, and this is how I'd score them for orchestra. Hope that answers your question.


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## synergy543 (Feb 20, 2011)

Windshore, is it unplayable or difficult? 

Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade 4th mvmt. - about halfway through he has a "solo" trumpet playing 19 solid measures of 16th and 32nd notes.

Real trumpet playing Scheherazade:
[mp3]http://home.comcast.net/~synergy543/Scheherazade.mp3[/mp3]

Regardless, its quite a spectacular orchestration and very effective (maybe "affective" for human players? :wink: )


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## windshore (Feb 20, 2011)

I understand that if you have a large enough section you can pass a task around like Ravel did and Rimsky-K. Your example of Scheherazade however is a perfect way of understanding why Guy's demo doesn't sound real. Listen to the volume level of the solo and the amount of energy going into each note. Now Listen again to the samples BLASTING away at full volume. I still think if you got brass players who were top of their craft, they'd walk out on the session after seeing the parts, ..or it'd sound like hell.

So again, it may be impressive to those who don't play a wind instrument, and to many that do, but it is not realistic to my ears. That's all. I am totally open to the idea that I'm wrong & if there is a brass player out there who disagrees I'd love to hear his opinion.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 20, 2011)

windshore, hopefully it's not just negative about this piece?


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## Allegra (Feb 20, 2011)

Navigating as a listener through the compositions of Guy Bacos is always a pleasurable excursion. This was no exception.
A wonderful use of the new brass samples presented here sound extremely realistic.

The compilation of the brass ensemble, demonstrated to me, good definition of color, balance, dynamics and my particular preference...dissonance. I especially like the change of mood from :55 on. Good arc to the piece. 

Another example of Mr. Bacos's excellent skills as a composer and orchestrator.

Good job Guy! 

Allegra


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## IvanP (Feb 21, 2011)

I didn't listen to anything that could be considered unplayable for concert work or film music in this piece...

Maybe you're reffering to student orchestras that can't rehearse pieces such as this one, or John Adam's, or RK, Rachaminov, Corigliano, Wagner, etc, and a lot, more difficult pieces that are played on an everyday basis.


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## windshore (Feb 21, 2011)

Ostensibly Guy posts every week to get subjective feedback from educated ears and not to promote the latest release from a particular company. 

I was expressing my gut-level reaction to what I heard. I regularly play with some of the best brass players on the planet, but I don't play a brass instrument so perhaps my impression is somewhat misguided. I also understand that realism is increasingly not a goal for many composers.

Guy, did you actually sequence this piece the way you suggested in your posted score? Did you use 4 different VI trumpets and split them 2 & 2?


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 21, 2011)

I respect your professionalism, but I have to say what I think makes sense and I'm sure you can respect that as well.  



windshore @ Mon Feb 21 said:


> Guy, did you actually sequence this piece the way you suggested in your posted score? Did you use 4 different VI trumpets and split them 2 & 2?



I find this question a bit strange. No I didn't, and why would I? This is just for practical playing reasons for live players, but the effect should be like one continuos line, not some stereophonic effect.

BTW, just to be sure, I had posted a new version a few minutes after posting the original, maybe you are talking about the original?


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## Ed (Feb 21, 2011)

Guy will get mad if I post my thoughts


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 21, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Feb 21 said:


> Guy will get mad if I post my thoughts



Ed, that statement is so inappropriate, it is a provocative statement otherwise you simply wouldn't have said anything.


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## Allegra (Feb 21, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Feb 21 said:


> Guy will get mad if I post my thoughts



I really don't think Guy would get angry at constructive criticism if it's targeted at the music for the rightful purpose of clarification, suggestions, questions about his use of the software, or the like. Seems to me the forum's function should be aimed at productivity not provocation. :roll: 

Allegra


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## Ed (Feb 21, 2011)

Allegra @ Mon Feb 21 said:


> I really don't think Guy would get angry at constructive criticism if it's targeted at the music for the rightful purpose of clarification, suggestions, questions about his use of the software, or the like. Seems to me the forum's function should be aimed at productivity not provocation. :roll:



Well we know from the past that's not really true... but as I said to Guy over PM, composition aside, I feel this demo has a _*very *_strange sound in the brass. Quite close miced and nasally. I would ask if thats how it really sounds or if any post processing has made it sound that way, but that is probably pushing my welcome in this thread. 

Maybe someone else will ask, but I that's all I need to say here. Any comments PM me.


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## synergy543 (Feb 21, 2011)

Guy, when you work on a demo with complex orchestration such as this, do you start with an overall concept of the composition? Or are you building it as you compose?


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 21, 2011)

synergy543 @ Mon Feb 21 said:


> Guy, when you work on a demo with complex orchestration such as this, do you start with an overall concept of the composition? Or are you building it as you compose?
> 
> I ask because without notes on a page, I find it hard to keep track of, and sculpt a more complex piece. So working without notes, I tend to gravitate towards much simpler structures (Zimmer ostinatos and drones for example) which are easier to grasp.



Hi Greg,

I structure my composition EXACTLY how I want it, from A to Z. Seriously, I have no idea where I'm going  , once the first idea is found, each sound seems to trigger the next and the piece takes its own shape as it evolves. So it's a very instinctive approach. I was never good in planing a piece and I hate that. As for the complexity, I never realized it was complex until you mentioned it too me, so I feel I'm having fun with the piece.


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## synergy543 (Feb 21, 2011)

I would always sketch out a piano version before I forget what was on my mind. Then I'd go back and fill in the orchestration. However, this doesn't work so well with orchestrations that aren't easily played on the piano such as yours. Yet, many complex orchestrations were done by pianists - except poor Richard Strauss who was a horn player.


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## nikolas (Feb 21, 2011)

I think that the repeated notes (which are mainly featured in the work), along with some crescenti sound good to my ears. The work is quite lovely, I don't fully agree with the orchestration (I'd prefer much more percussive instruments, or a bass piano, or something anyhow), but that's just me rather than any kind of a legit feedback or comment (and one that Guy didn't ask for, so I'm also sorry for this comment).

Other than that it sounds very exciting!

For the record: It depends on what work it is. for large concert hall works, I will sketch, but for 'easier' computer game music, I'm going straight into Cubase...


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## synergy543 (Feb 21, 2011)

Unfortunately using DAWs with multiple layers of tracks (many often for the same instrument) doesn't give us a good way to conceptualize visually the way we can with notes on paper. It is interesting that both Guy and Nikolas are exceptional pianists. I think this gives you both an edge in visualizing patterns in your mind as you layer tracks. Being a poor pianist, I can do this to a limited extent. Although I can see advantage gained with expertise. Still, its too bad the DAW isn't likely to be re-designed to offer the visual advantage of a score.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks Nikolas! Interesting comments about the percussion approach, I was emphasizing the perc in the later stage of the piece and might of added more with more time. 

Greg, you play some Chopin Etudes, don't you? That ain't to shabby!


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## nikolas (Feb 21, 2011)

Greg, I also seem to recall you playing some nice piano works...

I would argue that, indeed, the score is the best way to visualize what the heck is going on on a complicated score, but even more so the manuscript! (!!!) On my concert hall works I only work with pencil and paper (most usually away from the piano for various reasons). I find it too hard to work straight into Finale (Sibelius, Notion, whatever). I can't relate to the previous pages, that easily, I can't get sketches around me, I can't note down any fast comment, and I can't shape the music any way I like (notation wise), since in my head finale is the FINAL stage of the score.

Sorry for derailing the thread a tiny bit.

Guy, I think I understand what you mean. I was hoping for more 'bass' percussion, the snare drum is there, and so are the cymballs, but the timpani, or the tenor/bass drum or other more bass percussion are mainly missing (except for a timpani roll I heard towards the end). It's a matter of choice, clearly, not a matter of ignorance or 'right' or 'wrong', that's why I said it's not feedback or anything valid from my behalf!


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## hbuus (Feb 22, 2011)

windshore @ Mon Feb 21 said:


> Ostensibly Guy posts every week to get subjective feedback from educated ears and not to promote the latest release from a particular company.



Actually, Guy is paid by VSL to write demos using their, and only their, instruments.
He's been posting mp3's using Dimension Brass lately to promote this latest release from VSL.

Best,
Henrik


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## synergy543 (Feb 22, 2011)

hbuus @ Tue Feb 22 said:


> Actually, Guy is paid by VSL to write demos using their, and only their, instruments.
> He's been posting mp3's using Dimension Brass lately to promote this latest release from VSL.


Henrik, I'm sure you're trying to be informative rather than just spiteful. However, did it ever occur to you that some people may work on music because they have a love and passion for what they do? I think that might be why Guy may come across as a bit touchy at times - this is far more than a job. He's putting his effort and passion into making these demos. And btw, if you follow the progression of the demo as he adjusts and makes changes, you can learn a tremendous amount. Its really more like Sampling Masterclass rather than someone just cranking out promotional demos for a money.

Have a listen, you might learn something interesting, almost all of the discussion and changes are applicable to other libs too.


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