# Learning structure in orchestral/classical composition



## Phillip996 (Jul 16, 2018)

Hey,
I have for a while now, been trying to learn how to compose for orchestra. I have read books on orchestration and music theory. I feel like I know how to utilize ranges of instruments in the orchestra and so on, but I think my compositional skills are lacking. I can compose a short piece of music just fine, but when trying to create something longer, I end up not knowing where to go with it. I realize that I need more training in understanding structure and composition. Are there any books/courses that could help me? Other suggestions are of course welcome.


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## fixxer49 (Jul 16, 2018)

Phillip996 said:


> Hey,
> I have for a while now, been trying to learn how to compose for orchestra. I have read books on orchestration and music theory. I feel like I know how to utilize ranges of instruments in the orchestra and so on, but I think my compositional skills are lacking. I can compose a short piece of music just fine, but when trying to create something longer, I end up not knowing where to go with it. I realize that I need more training in understanding structure and composition. Are there any books/courses that could help me? Other suggestions are of course welcome.


One of the greatest lessons in Sonata form ever:


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## chibear (Jul 16, 2018)

Leon Stein's Structure and Style may fit your need. I took his course way back when. It was useful to me in my playing career, my teaching, and even now in my writing. Looks like it might be free too.
https://archive.org/details/structurestylest00stei_0


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 16, 2018)

You need to learn more about modulation, and there are all kinds of online resources about that.

I should mention that there are tons of people capable of making 16 bar loops that sound great, and that's one reason why it's not such a good idea to be stuck there long. Learning and putting into practice modulations (plus mastering the art of variations) will make you stand out *significantly* more.

What Edison said about brilliance being 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration is so apropos here. There are too many people full of purportedly great ideas whom don't know or want to know how to implement them in complete compositions. Many of the same spend chunks of their life living under the delusion that their music "isn't being heard by the right people", and those same folks are best off just writing for themselves (the latter being a perfectly acceptable thing, nothing wrong with hobbyists whom just make music for themselves and family/friends).

Loop composers abound everywhere (and they will typically overwhelm by dint of numbers anything that isn't backed by an entertainment agency). Learned composers capable of making complete compositions are comparatively much rarer.

Don't be those people. Be the standout, by knowing your stuff. \m/


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## aaronventure (Jul 16, 2018)

You won't learn solely by reading books.

Transcribe music that you like and that you to write similarly to. As you're trying to figure out the notes and the orchestration, you're essentially roleplaying as the original composer; the tune that they had in their head when they were writing it, trying to figure out the chords, voicings and the orchestrations (probably not how all of these tunes came to life but let's say it is) is now the tune you're trying to figure out from your speakers. They were trying to nail down what was in their head, you nail down what you're actually hearing.

It's like having sex with the original composer's brain. No book can give you that. You'll learn how they used to think while writing the piece and if you do it enough times you'll start thinking the same way.

It's hard work, especially if you're starting out. It's gonna take persistence and time. I understand reading books is easier and that's the thing: if it were all as easy as reading a book or two, everyone would be a world class composer.

If you have/can buy the score for the pieces you're transcribing, then all the better, because you can compare how well did you do. If you find yourself thinking, somewhere along the road, that you can net the same result just by reading the score, read my third paragraph again .

I can personally 100% vouch for this method. You'll begin to see incredible results in only a few months. Then you just keep transcribing and composing.


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## Phillip996 (Jul 16, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> You won't learn solely by reading books.
> 
> Transcribe music that you like and that you to write similarly to. As you're trying to figure out the notes and the orchestration, you're essentially roleplaying as the original composer; the tune that they had in their head when they were writing it, trying to figure out the chords, voicings and the orchestrations (probably not how all of these tunes came to life but let's say it is) is now the tune you're trying to figure out from your speakers. They were trying to nail down what was in their head, you nail down what you're actually hearing.
> 
> ...



Sometimes the "simple" answers are the best it seems.

When transcribing, you write out lines for all instruments, or is it common to just make a reduction when instruments double each other?

Also, do you know of any websites where I can purchase full scores? I previously have searched for scores, but end up only finding incomplete sheet music.

Thanks for your wonderful reply and time! :D


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## d.healey (Jul 16, 2018)

Phillip996 said:


> When transcribing, so you write out lines for all instruments, or is it common to just make a reduction when instruments double each other?


Do what works for you.



> Also, do you know of any websites where I can purchase full scores? I previously have searched for scores, but end up only finding incomplete sheet music.


https://imslp.org/
https://musescore.com/
https://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Departments/Film-Scoring-Channel.aspx
https://www.halleonard.com/


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## Paul T McGraw (Jul 16, 2018)

@Phillip996 I graduated with a degree in music in 1976. I studied musical form and of course was tested on the knowledge of musical form. However, knowing the definitions of different forms and actually internalizing that knowledge are two different things. To write longer form music you have to really internalize the knowledge of musical form. But as @Parsifal666 pointed out, a first step is to learn how to modulate.

There are several methods of modulation: direct modulation (very popular with media composers today), common chord modulation, common tone modulation and modulation by sequence. Complete mastery of each type of modulation is ideal, but at least a basic level of facility with each will open up entirely new vistas. Once you have that down, the larger forms become possible.

There is a fantastic book on form that I recommend. "Analyzing Classical Form" by Caplin. During the classical era composers were very careful in their use of form, and a number of "standard" forms emerged. Later composers either used one of these forms, or modified one, or perhaps blended two or more of them. But once you understand Classical form you can do your own modifications or combinations yourself. This book is great because it makes each form extremely clear, and includes self tests with answer key. Recordings of the examples are available online. Yes, it will take some work to complete this book. But if you are serious about wanting to understand form, I can not think of a better way to learn the subject.


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## aaronventure (Jul 16, 2018)

Phillip996 said:


> When transcribing, you write out lines for all instruments, or is it common to just make a reduction when instruments double each other?


In the beginning, I was focusing on doing a reduction and general broad orchestration strokes (stuff I could easily pick out i.e. horns doing the melody, strings doing chords), because I thought just learning the composition was more important. I have stopped doing that and now to transcribe onto a full-score manuscript paper (or in Sibelius, whatever works for you) because orchestration and composition in orchestral music are two sides of the same coin.

With this approach, I've noticed that I absorb much, _much_ more with each transcription, even though it takes a bit longer than the reduction approach.

To add to David's list:

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/
http://www.omnimusicpublishing.com/

Also, you can try trading scores on Swappano, if you want. You can find a lot of scans of handwritten scores from popular films (some engraved, too).


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## ed buller (Jul 16, 2018)

Structure in long form pieces is a bit of a minefield IMHO. Basically that's why there is Sonata form. It's by far the most successful but very very restrictive. But it works ...very well and Caplin's book is essential if you want to crack it.

However you can just invent your own. Perhaps the easiest starting point is to think in ideas. One idea...followed by a second idea. maybe the first idea again but different. Then a new idea. Then the second idea and so on. Basically that's all sonata form is. It's ideas laid out in a very disciplined way . It's genius and works well but is a bit old fashioned. Structure is nothing more than shape. Recognizable shape. Laid out in a way that the Listener can comprehend .




This is basically a list of ideas. with ideas repeated . A,B,C,D,E,D,A,D.....ruffly. So get each idea right. Think of it like a pop song . Verse Chorus Verse Chorus Middle 8 Chorus....but be more daring. Perhaps before you start say...OK I'm going to write a piece of music that's 10 mins long. First I am going to write 5 themes. 3 very short ones of 4 notes each and two longs ones of 10 notes each. I'm going to fiddle around with each theme for half an hour to get some harmony ideas for them. Then i'm going to build a piece out of these ideas.

Listen to Scheherazade by Rimsky Korsakov. Listen to the themes as they are showcased in each section then come back at the end all together. Break down the first movement . There's lots of repetitions. Rimsky was fond of sequences . He was masterful at transposing an idea quickly .

If you work in a Daw just bash out five ideas. Then try moving them around in different orders. Change the keys to see how they can fit better together...and remember ....THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY OF DOING THIS !


Best

ed


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## Bollen (Jul 16, 2018)

I probably shouldn't be giving away this for free, but hey... I wouldn't be a broke musician otherwise:

The first document is from a chapter in my book about improvisation, but the principles are identical in composition. After all, developing a melody is a universal western concept.

The second document is from an online course I used to teach about ten years ago. It's lesson 10 about modulations and it includes the different forms and techniques to achieve them (with audio examples). It only covers modulation though not things like tonicisations and transitions. The explanation of "related degrees" might be difficult to understand without the previous harmony lessons, but maybe you'll get it anyway...


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## Phillip996 (Jul 17, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> @Phillip996 I graduated with a degree in music in 1976. I studied musical form and of course was tested on the knowledge of musical form. However, knowing the definitions of different forms and actually internalizing that knowledge are two different things. To write longer form music you have to really internalize the knowledge of musical form. But as @Parsifal666 pointed out, a first step is to learn how to modulate.
> 
> There are several methods of modulation: direct modulation (very popular with media composers today), common chord modulation, common tone modulation and modulation by sequence. Complete mastery of each type of modulation is ideal, but at least a basic level of facility with each will open up entirely new vistas. Once you have that down, the larger forms become possible.
> 
> There is a fantastic book on form that I recommend. "Analyzing Classical Form" by Caplin. During the classical era composers were very careful in their use of form, and a number of "standard" forms emerged. Later composers either used one of these forms, or modified one, or perhaps blended two or more of them. But once you understand Classical form you can do your own modifications or combinations yourself. This book is great because it makes each form extremely clear, and includes self tests with answer key. Recordings of the examples are available online. Yes, it will take some work to complete this book. But if you are serious about wanting to understand form, I can not think of a better way to learn the subject.


Book has been bought. Seems to be quite a comprehensive book :D


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## Leon Willett (Jul 17, 2018)

In order to have good "form" a piece needs two ingredients. 

- A harmonic journey (a harmonic "story")
- A musical "hero" (or several) that gets caught up on that journey 

It is exactly analogous to a story in a movie or a book. You have a story, and you have a character (or several) that get caught up in that story. 

A musical "hero" is a musical idea that you would recognise if it came back later. Please read that sentence again. It is comonly a melodic theme of some kind, but it could be anything -- as long as a listener will recognise it if it comes back later. It's like the difference between a main character and an extra, in a movie. 

The harmonic journey is what your hero(es) are caught in. You establish a "home" (it doesn't have to be tonal, just any pitch set will do), and then you move away from that (you literally leave those notes behind and find new notes). An analogy: you have a "shire" that is your home, and you move away from that, towards a "mordor". The further from home the listener feels, the more your listener will feel in danger, in a storm, in need of returning to safety. Two things define how much danger you have at a given time: how different your pitch set is from the first one, and how much more dissonant it is right now than before. A good story moves away from home in steady waves that build in darkness and distance from home, stopping only to rest for a moment as you progress again to a bigger wave. 

If you understand musical heroes, and harmonic "story waves", you have understood form. 

This dynamic is mislabled and misinterpreted in books and common musical knowledge. Letters (A B A .... A B C D) get thrown around. Words like "development" or "exposition" also get thrown around. There is no such thing really, though it can appear so, when you look at a piece after it's finished. But you can't compose in blocks like that. 

There are in fact just "musical heroes" and "harmonic story waves". 

I wish I had known this 20 years ago, so if you're interested in understanding how to tell longer musical stories, please have a think about this.


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## patrick76 (Jul 17, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> It's like having sex with the original composer's brain. No book can give you that.


Having sex with composers' brains is not something I'd want to experience.


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## Iskra (Jul 17, 2018)

ed buller said:


> Basically that's why there is Sonata form. It's by far the most successful but very very restrictive.


Couldn't disagree more about the restrictiveness of the sonata form. Just checking sonatas from the XIX and XXth centuries proves that wrong. Plus, the principles of structural and development techniques from sonata form can be applied into almost anything (modulation, sequencing, motive transformation, and a very long etc).


ed buller said:


> One idea...followed by a second idea. maybe the first idea again but different. Then a new idea. Then the second idea and so on. Basically that's all sonata form is.


Disagree to this as well. As deeply as I could possibly disagree. 
That is not sonata-form, at all.


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## jononotbono (Jul 17, 2018)

Mike Verta's Masterclass called Structure is definitely worth checking out.


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## BenG (Jul 17, 2018)

Bollen said:


> I probably shouldn't be giving away this for free, but hey... I wouldn't be a broke musician otherwise:
> 
> The first document is from a chapter in my book about improvisation, but the principles are identical in composition. After all, developing a melody is a universal western concept.
> 
> The second document is from an online course I used to teach about ten years ago. It's lesson 10 about modulations and it includes the different forms and techniques to achieve them (with audio examples). It only covers modulation though not things like tonicisations and transitions. The explanation of "related degrees" might be difficult to understand without the previous harmony lessons, but maybe you'll get it anyway...



Very kind of you to share! Really enjoyed reading it


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## averystemmler (Jul 17, 2018)

Leon Willett said:


> In order to have good "form" a piece needs two ingredients.
> 
> - A harmonic journey (a harmonic "story")
> - A musical "hero" (or several) that gets caught up on that journey
> ...



I like this. I've always struggled with form when not working to picture, and this puts a clean perspective on why. The film provides the structure of the "journey." Without it, I just sort of make arbitrary musical decisions without reason or confidence, and hope that it all works out. I'll have to think about this the next time I'm writing independently.


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## DMDComposer (Jul 17, 2018)

Everyone else answered really well on how to help with composing/structured. I just want to push you harder into doing it.

You learn by doing not by reading/studying. I started orchestrating/writing for huge orchestra before learning how to even write a simple song. And I sucked at first... but it got me an introduction with my Highschool band teacher who saw potential. Told me simply ranges of instruments first. And that to work hard over the Summer and he'll perform my piece for the Spring Concert. And guess what.. I wrote a piece over the summer and they practiced that piece and did they perform it in the Spring Concert? NO! Because that piece was way to hard and it sucked lol. They actually performed the second piece I wrote over Winter Break because I practiced and realized I could do better. And that second piece was amazing, lightyears better and got performed. You can actually go find that second piece on youtube but I don't suggest to cause its an early piece of mine and is kind of embrassing lol.

Then at college during my senior year my professors legit told me after months working with me that they used to laugh at me in private conversations. Because they were baffled how I could orchestrate ideas like Tchaikovsky or Ravel but I was missing rudimentary composition elements. So 100% truth during my senior year of college I was actually writing simple compositions like duets, and practicing basic compositions techniques because they saw thats what I was missing. So don't feel bad about missing it as I kind of started backwards but just work harder at it and start practicing it.

Point being, just start doing it and yes your gonna suck at first. Especially your first piece will suck. I always say the first time I do anything sucks. First time sex is awkard but second time is lightyears better. Because we learn by doing. :D

Apologies for confusing rant. I'm italian and talk alot and with my hands. So if you saw my hands you would've understood everything perfectly!


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## Phillip996 (Jul 17, 2018)

DMDComposer said:


> Everyone else answered really well on how to help with composing/structured. I just want to push you harder into doing it.
> 
> You learn by doing not by reading/studying. I started orchestrating/writing for huge orchestra before learning how to even write a simple song. And I sucked at first... but it got me an introduction with my Highschool band teacher who saw potential. Told me simply ranges of instruments first. And that to work hard over the Summer and he'll perform my piece for the Spring Concert. And guess what.. I wrote a piece over the summer and they practiced that piece and did they perform it in the Spring Concert? NO! Because that piece was way to hard and it sucked lol. They actually performed the second piece I wrote over Winter Break because I practiced and realized I could do better. And that second piece was amazing, lightyears better and got performed. You can actually go find that second piece on youtube but I don't suggest to cause its an early piece of mine and is kind of embrassing lol.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comment :D I hade to read it twice so I could imagine you waving your hands around when I read it the second time.

I always compose some music here and there. But they never get particularly long or interesting. I will try your approach, and compose longer even if it sucks. Problem is, I am my own harshest critic xD


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## wst3 (Jul 17, 2018)

wandering a bit far off the beaten track, but DMDComposer's post was an "AHA" moment for me, so I feel I should share. Many years ago (1994, I kid you not) Anne Lamott wrote a book titled "Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life". I doubt I'd have stumbled across it except for an interview on the radio - I was so taken by the interview I drove straight to the nearest book store (we still had those) and purchased the book - the only copy they had!)

I've since read it several times, and shared it with several friends who were interested in creative endeavors.

There is really nothing new in the book, but the lessons are told in such a compelling way one can not really ignore them. For me, today, the two key lessons are that I need to break things down into do-able size tasks, and I have to accept that my first attempts will suck, and that the real craft starts with the first of many revisions.

You'd think I'd have internalized these ideas by now...


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## Dave Connor (Jul 19, 2018)

I would get a decent book on _Form_ or _Form and Analysis._ That way you will learn the established fundamental thought and terminology which will allow for a far easier interchange with other people and texts on the subject. It will also show you (in a general sense) how composers throughout history related to form, both scientifically and artistically. Transcription may be a healthy exercise but it would hinder more than help in this area. In the time it takes to transcribe eight bars you could easily outline the form of eight minutes of music if not twice that or more.

The story of Beethoven is a story about form. Scientifically he employed it totally while artistically he subjugated it to his will. One of the planes on which Beethoven is constantly commenting and even toying is in the area of form. It's like a hidden message that contains volumes of material which most people will miss entirely. Even his earliest works show him departing from convention. He _broke the rules_ as they say (all good composers do that though - making it a tired axiom.)

None of us need be Beethoven in respect to form but as you say, as soon as you want to write something of length, it becomes vital in order to coherently develop or extend the basic material (i.e. form and content are intertwined in most of the music of the west for centuries now - even film music.)


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## ed buller (Jul 20, 2018)

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