# Unusual Scales



## Roland Mac (Jun 12, 2006)

Lastnight I worked quite late analysing the Rachmaninoff Prelude Op23 No5 B section. Took me quite a while to find out the scale used and really to get my head around this passage. But eventually I tuned into the fact that it was a Harmonic Major scale, which builds a dominant on the first degree. This then tonicizes to 'iv' and resolves on 'I' natural (repeating with slight variation).

Anyway, this got me to thinking about different scales and how they can be used to make really interesting and ambigious sounding progressions and melodies.

Anyone using rare of unusual scales in their work much?

Any examples from the filmscore rep of unusual scales? I know T Newman likes to use modal stuff quite a bit.

RM


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 12, 2006)

You would like EIS. It allows you to develop scales based on progressions which defy single key references in a very fluid approach. Modalities, altered scales and EIS can lead to some very interesting music.


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 12, 2006)

There is an interesting chapter on scales and modes in the book '20th Century Harmony' by Vincent Persichetti (plus a load of other interesting and useful stuff!).

Well worth a read


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## Waywyn (Jun 13, 2006)

actually there is a pretty interesting and easy way to approach scales and it is pretty funny to experiment with it.

generally you can do everything you want as long as you have the fitting chord for it 


create a scale 

e.g. 1 - 2 - 3 - +4 - 5+ - 6 - 7 - 8

this may sound a bit strange but technically it is a lydian +5 scale. the same as lydian but with a raised 5th.

now you choose some notes for the chord behind that scale:

e.g. in F:

F (root) - A (maj 3rd) - C# (+5) - E (maj7)

and now you have some funny thing to play with.

if you of course want a well sorted out and ordered way to approach scales and the stuff you can do with it, i would check out EIS 
but you should always keep in mind, that scales is not a very big mystery, it is just a combination of notes with a very few rules to pay attention to. ... and even these rules are just a matter of taste


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## Jackull (Jun 13, 2006)

roland mac,

eis is the best place to explore scales & other stuff as what frederik mentioned... 
if you would like to build some unusual scales, you can try something like this;

just remember that an octave is divided in equal interval(excluding microtone) which is known as tritone in traditional music or a split-octave in eis (if starts in C, then Gb is the tritone & vise versa)

now let's start on any note say 'C'. build any interval from C to Gb.
ex. C , Db , E , F#(Gb) - first half of the octave

continue it with the same intervals from F#(Gb)
ex. F# , G , Bb , C - 2nd half of the octave

now you have the complete scale. call it whatever mode you like... 
ex. C Db E F# G Bb C - one octave

in modal you can start in any notes of this same scale & you can create a new sound.
ex. Db E F# G Bb C Db

then you can chose whatever harmony that fits this scale.

anyway hope you can create some beautiful music exploring with unusual scale & don't forget to post it here.

btw - in eis the above example scale is SCALE #10/4+, including the A natural


jackULL


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## fictionmusic (Jun 13, 2006)

iocomposer @ Tue Jun 13 said:


> A very popular scaler concept in contemporary Jazz (not Kenny G) is the Altered Dominant scale and all of its realated modal permutations. Altered dominant being:
> 
> C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb
> 
> ...




Both are really cool scales and probably better heard when seen seperately. Of course both of them are also derived from the melodic minor scale and THAT is something I think any person could benefit from, ie studying all the modes of a particular scale. The same scale also yields one of my favorite modes; C D E F# G# A B C which is basically a Lydian scale with a sharp 5.

I studied George Russel's Lydian Chromatic Technique quite a bit, and one of the things he has done is to list a series of scales in terms of tensions. Starting with the lydian scale he moves to the lydian#5 (Lydian Aug)the lydian diminished (or Lydian with a minor third.) the whole 1/2 diminished (which he calls the Auxillary Diminished scale), the whole-tone scale (which he calls Auxillary Augmented scale) and then the 1/2 whole diminished(which he calls the auxillary diminished blues scale ) . It goes pretty much beyond that, but the basic idea is that these scale will allow a soloist or composer to stretch the tonality thinner and thinner (or more and more outside) by ascending through the series.

Lennie Tristano, Lee Konitz and of course George Russell all have elements of these theories in their tunes.

Bartok is probably the best example of the Lydian Dominant scale as much of his music uses it (and he has a real fondness for scales which have #4 as well). His microcosmos uses a lot of different modes from Hungarian literature and are well worth buying the scores for (and pretty easy to read too). The beautiful Concerto for Orchestra has lots of phrases that use it (especially the beautifully lyrical theme in part 4)

Debussy is probably the most readily seen example of the whole-tone scale and much of his music uses it (often in parallel harmony). The whole flashback dream sequence parody seems to always refer to it too.


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## fictionmusic (Jun 13, 2006)

Jakull says
"now let's start on any note say 'C'. build any interval from C to Gb. 
ex. C , Db , E , F#(Gb) - first half of the octave 

continue it with the same intervals from F#(Gb) 
ex. F# , G , Bb , C - 2nd half of the octave 

now you have the complete scale. call it whatever mode you like... 
ex. C Db E F# G Bb C - one octave 

in modal you can start in any notes of this same scale & you can create a new sound. 
ex. Db E F# G Bb C Db'


Of course there is no reason why you can't have a six note scale (or seven or even 9) but wouldn't it be better to have some more intervals there from which to derive your harmonies?

I would see the scale you mention as being either a slimmed down (scaled down even) version of the 1/2 whole diminished scale. Nevertheless it has its own distinct sound and like Scott's advice about having the second octave of a scale change, is a great way to avoid the typical cliches.


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## Jackull (Jun 13, 2006)

fictionmusic @ Tue Jun 13 said:


> Of course there is no reason why you can't have a six note scale (or seven or even 9) but wouldn't it be better to have some more intervals there from which to derive your harmonies?



Yes more notes = more choices. However, pentatonic as you already know, produce quite satisfying sound using just the notes on that scale for harmony.

Base on the intervals itself, the idea is to build an unusual scale that create its own sound without referencing to any scale name. Likewise, as I've mentioned earlier you can call the scale whatever you want to.

Here's another example call it any name you want, but the idea of this is scale is base on the equal intervals; C D# E G Ab B C . You can harmonize it base on the created scale or any studied harmony.


jackULL


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## Scott Rogers (Jun 13, 2006)

..........


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## fictionmusic (Jun 13, 2006)

Jackull
"Likewise, as I've mentioned earlier you can call the scale whatever you want to. "

Indeed...but almost every scale you can think of already has a name (even the weirder ones are usually modes of some not so weird).

Don't get me wrong...I believe that every composer should be free to create any materials he wants in pursuit of his composition, I just like to know what the real precedence is for scales whenever possible.

For instance the last one you mentioned I think of as a mode 1 of Sixtone Symmetrical and is one of many previously documented symmetrical scales.

Regardless though they are a lot of fun.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 13, 2006)

I haven't studied EIS, but something caught my eye and cause me to read this thread.

First, what is a harmonic major scale?

Second:



> e.g. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5+ - 6 - 7 - 8
> 
> this may sound a bit strange but technically it is a lydian +5 scale. the same as lydian but with a raised 5th.



What makes that lydian? Where's the raised 4th, in other words? To me that would suggest an augmented chord.

Also, some of the other scales just look like incomplete half-diminished scales (half - whole - half - whole, etc. - or vice versa).

Expliquez à moi.


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## Scott Rogers (Jun 13, 2006)

..........


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## fictionmusic (Jun 13, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jun 13 said:


> I haven't studied EIS, but something caught my eye and cause me to read this thread.
> 
> First, what is a harmonic major scale?
> 
> ...




I think the lydian aug scale mentioned is supposed to have a sharp 4 (or at least a real lydian aug certainly has ie mode 3 of melodic minor)

A harmonic major is like a harmonic minor in that it has a harmonic tetrachord as its upper tetrachord but also has a ionian tetrachord as its lower.

It would be 
1 2 3 4 5 b6 7 8

I agree with you about the incomplete dim scales as well, although in Jackull's original post he mentions the scale also has a natural 6th (1 b2 3 #4 5 6 b7 ) which makes it almost a mode of melodic minor (like lydian flat seven only with a flattened 2) or harmonic major (neither one totally though). The tetrachord on the bottom is one I have seen called the enigma tetrachord (1 b2 3 #4) but offhand I can't find any mode that also has a minor upper tetrachord. Even still, I am sure there is a scale name for it (although as Jackull suggests I will feel free to name it myself) somewhere...time to hit the books.

I must say though, I have been fooling around with it on gtr since this thread...very cool.


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## Scott Rogers (Jun 13, 2006)

..........


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## fictionmusic (Jun 13, 2006)

Thanks Scott...I can see how you would call it a mixo b9 #11 scale, but why a natural 13? I know the 13th is natural in the scale mind...I just would assume it was unless otherwise stated, like in a mixo b9 b13 scale say. In the last instance I would call that a mode of harmonic minor. Similarly I was looking to see if the "mixo b9 #11" scale was a mode of something more common. As it is you could just as easily call it lydian b7 b9 (etc. etc.)

Still sounds cool and one I can't say I have ever come across.


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## fictionmusic (Jun 13, 2006)

All this scale talk has reminded me of a process a teacher of mine used to describe wherein a scale's primary notes were the tonal triad (1 4 5) and the others were modal variants and subject to any kind of manipulation (ie b2, 2, b3, 3, b6, 6, b7, 7).
Composite minor is a great example of that.

As I have a preference for scales with sharp 11s (and really like symmetrical scales), I never really pursued the tonal triad and that way of thinking much, but like the George Russel theory, it could easily provide the soloist with some easy ways to get outside (especially over inside chords).

Man...my fingers are aching just talking about all this stuff...looking forward to hitting the books again.


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## Scott Rogers (Jun 13, 2006)

..........


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## José Herring (Jun 13, 2006)

Love this topic. Reminds me of all the things I use to think about before I got serious about samples last year. 

Yep, maybe someday I'll get good enough at samples to start thinking about music again. Maybe...someday.

Jose


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## Waywyn (Jun 13, 2006)

sorry, just a simple mistake, no need to discuss. i simply forgot the +4 

now you can throw eggs :mrgreen:

it should of course be:

1 . 2 . 3 . +4 . +5 . 6 . 7 . 8(1)


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## fictionmusic (Jun 13, 2006)

Scott Rogers @ Tue Jun 13 said:


> fiction,
> 
> When dealing with such synthetic scales I use the most direct mnemonic means available and make sure all scale degrees are specified and unambiguous. I usually start by looking at the 1, 3, 5, 7 scale degrees and go from there to the tensions. The natural 13 is not necessarily automatic in this case because a b9 often gets a b13 as well. The chord scale and the chord itself is pretty common in jazz voicings, but obviously it'll go anywhere and you'll just treat it differently depending on style/genre. But yes, if it were functioning differently for you in whatever context, you could think of it more as a lydian b9, b7. It's all about function and purpose.



Indeed! I quite agree with that (although I don't think a flat 13th is necessarily implied with a flat 9, especially when mixolydian~ is the scale's template...but being something of a jazzer myself I understand the logic).

I tend to think of the ionian mode as the template upon which scales are defined, so that unless specified, the natural scale degrees would be ionian-based. As lydian is the closest possible major scale to ionian (bearing in mind that a mixo scale is not revealed until the seventh shows up whereas the lydian's #4 is the first deviation from ionian) it would be the next template I would use to define a scale (ie anything with a major third and a # 4). In that regard function and purpose aren't really the considerations I would be concerned with. However when soloing (especially using Russell's lydian chromatic concept), how the mode becomes altered would very much be about purpose and function. Either way I guess it sounds the same though.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2006)

> I should also let you know that you've been reported to the chord scales police at Berklee.



But Officer, I think I follow the laws pretty closely! 

I've never heard of an official "harmonic major" scale. Chords formed from it aren't exactly uncommon, though, so who cares what you call it.

I was trained to view...well, I guess every scale degree except the tonic of the moment as being fluid, i.e. it's normal to alter notes chromatically and then come up with the justification for doing that later.


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## Waywyn (Jun 14, 2006)

I think the scale naming just derives that people have it easy to find a relation to it.

Kinda like if someone asks you, "Whats that animal?" and you go "Well, it is kinda like a bee but has legs of a spider" ... everybody would maybe look pretty stupid but they would exactly know what you are talking about.

For me it is pretty understandable if someone tells me and asks me to play a harmonic major scale. I would instantly know what i have to do.

I think that's all. Just a description thing.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2006)

I know spees and biders, and I know a lot of other words - including "the" and "and." I even know about picadilly thirds! Yes, it's true.

But in 46 years of music, I've never heard anyone refer to a "harmonic major" scale.


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## Waywyn (Jun 14, 2006)

see, you never stop learning


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## Jackull (Jun 14, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> But in 46 years of music, I've never heard anyone refer to a "harmonic major" scale.



yes nick, people probably force to name such scale & there are plenty more depending on where the scale originates geographically (i.e. egyptian minor, afghan locrian, persian blues...etc  )

my question is do you(everybody) prefer to have those files of music theory book so to confirm the name of that specific unusual scale or synthetic, or would you prefer to have a scale which you can build base on the intervals that you create which sounds pleasing or new to ears?

another example: name the scale quiz show 

C D D# E F# G Ab Bb B C - no passing tones, all pure tones

would it be easier to call this fiction#1, if fictionmusic likes it, or jack1  than some fancy name in the area of harmonic dominant #11, b13 ?

it looks like will fit in major, minor & dominant chord, depending on which note to stress.


jackULL


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2006)

Alex, nobody except you has ever used that term. Admit it. 

They've used the scale, of course, but not the term.


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## gravehill (Jun 14, 2006)

I've seen the tern Harmonic Major used in many occassions. I think it's the most logical name for the said scale as it's otherwise identical to harmonic minor except for the 3rd.


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## Thonex (Jun 14, 2006)

A completely different way of looking at scales (especially if you're improvising) is to know these approach techniques to each chord tone of the chord you're playing:

chromatic up (eg. C being the chord tone: B, C)
chromatic down (eg. C being the chord tone: Db,C)
whole step up (eg. C being the chord tone: Bb, C)
whole step down (eg. C being the chord tone: D,C)
double chromatic up (eg. C being the chord tone: Bb, B, C)
double chromatic down (eg. C being the chord tone: D,Db,C)

then 
chromatic auxiliary up (eg. C being the chord tone: B,Db,C)
chromatic auxiliary down (eg. C being the chord tone: Db,B,C)
whole step auxiliary up (eg. C being the chord tone: Bb,D,C)
whole step auxiliary down (eg. C being the chord tone: D,Bb,C)

I guess you could do double chromatic auxiliaries... it depends on how far you want to take it. 

These are basically passing tones to the target chord tone. Learn this on a Maj, Min, Dom and Dim chords in all 12 keys... and you have every permutation of every scale ever played in western music... easy right...  


T


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## Thonex (Jun 14, 2006)

double post


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## Roland Mac (Jun 14, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> I know spees and biders, and I know a lot of other words - including "the" and "and." I even know about picadilly thirds! Yes, it's true.
> 
> But in 46 years of music, I've never heard anyone refer to a "harmonic major" scale.



Thanks for all the replies people, much to research it seems!

Nick,

Harmonic Major is pretty new to me aswell. I initially thought it was the Phrygian Dominant, but it was the 5th rather than 3rd mode of harmonic minor.

To be honest though, Harmonic Major is one of many terms used to describe this scale / mode. It is also known as the 'Mela Vakulabharanam' I believe.

RM


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## Roland Mac (Jun 14, 2006)

My apologies, the Rachmaninoff scale is the Harmonic Major 'Inverse'.

C, Db, E, F, G, Ab, Bb

Fifth mode of the Harmonic minor scale:

F, G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, E

It occurs in Op 23 No 5 when the piece modulates from G minor to the dominant (D) while retaining the original note interval relationships.

RM


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## Waywyn (Jun 14, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> Alex, nobody except you has ever used that term. Admit it.
> 
> They've used the scale, of course, but not the term.



well, it wasn't my idea to name a scale harmonic major. actually i found the name in my EIS studying book. ... and EIS is about 4792 years old 

.... i am just saying that it is an easy way to name a scale, because i simply knew what was going on.

they could even say: ionian b6 or mixolydian b6 natural 7 
there are 500 names for a scale.


please get me right, i am not the one who insists on scalenames. the main point is to be able to understand it and know what to do with em.

but if there is the most easiest way to name a scale i personally go for that, because i easily know whats going on.

i mean come on there are people who are talking of the gipsy scale, the enigmatic scale or others, which could also be named different.
i think i am just trying to find an easy to name scales - nothing else 

thats why i used the term harmonic major because that is the simplest way, it is a harmonic minor scale, but with a major third 

... and yes i admit, but phrased in another way:
i was the first guy you met in your life who is using the term harmonic major


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## José Herring (Jun 14, 2006)

Thonex @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> A completely different way of looking at scales (especially if you're improvising) is to know these approach techniques to each chord tone of the chord you're playing:
> 
> chromatic up (eg. C being the chord tone: B, C)
> chromatic down (eg. C being the chord tone: Db,C)
> ...



Thanks T,

This and Scott Roger's poly motivic idea are some of the most useful ideas put forth on this forum as far as composition for film.

Jose


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## Jackull (Jun 14, 2006)

Roland Mac @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> To be honest though, Harmonic Major is one of many terms used to describe this scale / mode. It is also known as the 'Mela Vakulabharanam' I believe.
> RM



that scale name is awesome, luv it :D nice mode

jackULL


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## Scott Rogers (Jun 14, 2006)

..........


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## Jackull (Jun 14, 2006)

josejherring @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> Thonex @ Wed Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > A completely different way of looking at scales (especially if you're improvising) is to know these approach techniques to each chord tone of the chord you're playing:
> ...



looks like thonex took lessons from charlie banacos  or his descendants


j


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## Waywyn (Jun 14, 2006)

i just grabbed out my old "guitar grimoire" book which looks like a black magic or satanic book 

there are such weird scale names in there as:
neapolitan major, enigmatic minor, hungarian, pelog and so on. now thats weird, but nothing against that name roland mentioned


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## Jackull (Jun 14, 2006)

Waywyn @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> i just grabbed out my old "guitar grimoire" book which looks like a black magic or satanic book
> 
> there are such weird scale names in there as:
> neapolitan major, enigmatic minor, hungarian, pelog and so on. now thats weird, but nothing against that name roland mentioned



oh, i will treasure that scale name & pronouce it everyday so it will come naturally  .
forget about how the scale sound, just listen how it sound when you pronounce it. it's already unusual :D

j


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## Waywyn (Jun 14, 2006)

*rofl*


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## gravehill (Jun 14, 2006)

I found from a guitar book an interesting Japanese (?) pentatonic scale. I don't know any specific name for this but it sounds pretty cool:

Intervals: 1, 2, b3, 5, b6, 8(1)
Eg from C: C, D, Eb, G, Ab, C


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2006)

I think harmonic major must be a German thing.

Another way of looking at it, Thonex: you have 12 notes, and each one is below and above the one next to it on either side...


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## Thonex (Jun 14, 2006)

Jackull @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Thonex @ Wed Jun 14 said:
> ...



Hey... You've heard of Charlie!!!!   

I didn't mention his name because I though he's be relatively unknown. I took lessons from Bruce Arnold.... one of his direct students... and an awesome guitar player. This was on his first lesson... he said... "there ya go... this should pretty much keep you busy for the rest of your life..." :lol: 

That and modal sequencing... which is very hip.

T


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## Waywyn (Jun 14, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> I think harmonic major must be a German thing.



hm, was Lyle Murphy german?!?


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## fictionmusic (Jun 14, 2006)

Scott said
"Or, maybe there is a structure Stravinsky is using and the notes from bottom to top are A, C, E, G, B, D. Depending on how he is using that I will look at it one way or another. He might be using it more as an extended tertian chord, and if so, mnemonically I'll think of it as an Ami7(9,11). But if he's obviously employing a poly-writing approach, I'll think of it more as Gma/Ami. A similar situation arises with using upper structure triads for a 5 horn jazz fusion combo, because with upper structure writing you're looking at the harmony in a little different way than if you're writing that same piece for big band." 



I think a lot of Holst's The Planets is of a similar nature ie the chords are actually two seperate triads superimposed. Of course you get some jazzy sounding chords, but oddly (epsecially in Holst's case) a lot of these jazzy chords bypass the major 7th. To my mind those are the trickiest chord tones to use in any music other than jazz.


Scott said
"I asked him once to teach me the approaches he used on the Wynton Marsalis Hot House Flowers album, and what he showed me was that just prior to doing those arrangements he had been studying a lot of Bartok. "

Ahhh...I have always thought of Bartok as the father of jazz harmony. The whole II V I using Dorian on the II, ANYTHING on the V and some form of Lydian on the I has its roots in the Bartokian universe. (especially his use of natural sixths on minors and #4 on majors). He Hindemith, Russell and Delamont, all seem to take their harmonic cues from the overtone series.


I have mentioned George Russell several times already, I always figured Russell got his ideas from Hindemith's Craft of Musical Composition. Actually I think that same text is responsible for Ornette Coleman's harmelodic stuff too.


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## fictionmusic (Jun 14, 2006)

Thonex @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> fictionmusic @ Wed Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Thonex...I saw an article in guitar player years ago that had the same process you mention...I can't remember the author or to whom he attributed the method but it had excercises just like you mentioned. Pretty deep indeed, and as you say, does include every scale in western music cumulatively, but while being eminently useful (and hip) it doesn't necessarily lend itself to figuring out tertian harmonies derived from any given mode. By the same token you could just as easily say all you need to study is the mixed mode scale and harmonies. While this will give you an exceptionally wide tonal palette, it doesn't acknowledge the actual harmonic theory of one mode in and of itself.
> ...



Well for sure...that goes without saying I think. 
The point to all of these theoretical machinations is to internalize them and create intuitively. I think our intuition learns irrespective of whether we take the time to train it and as such, I think it wise to have a hand in how it developes.

Nevertheless, I will admit I am a real theory freak and I like to study it regardless of whether it shows up in my music.


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## Thonex (Jun 14, 2006)

fictionmusic @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> The point to all of these theoretical machinations is to internalize them and create intuitively.



Agree 100%


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2006)

"I know you're half joking Nick.... but as simple as those approach techniques sound... it can get VERY deep. "

Oh, I can see that. But it doesn't mean I shouldn't take the opportunity to be a jackass.


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## david robinson (Nov 17, 2006)

hello,

some trivia:

George Russell's sister was Gail Russell. She appeared in a number of movies in the 40s and 50s. (gorgeous looking woman, btw)

One of the movies was "the Uninivited".

Victor Young composed the score. (now there's a guy with a great melodic sense).

The movies main theme is "Stella by Starlight."

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Am a fan of Al Silvestri's. Had to transcribe a number of his theme's over the years.

Two egs:

Back to the Future - Mixolydian, and lydian. Mondo modulation: even the main motif(lydian) modulates! extensive use of perfect fourths, and other forms of angularity.

Predator - Diminished scale (st - T) used in the "danger" motif. drops from G to E (hvy perc/low brs+ap) to C#, at which time becomes the Overtone or Lydian b7 mode (more lyric sound, orchestrated for strings).


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 18, 2006)

Roland Mac @ Wed Jun 14 said:


> My apologies, the Rachmaninoff scale is the Harmonic Major 'Inverse'.
> 
> C, Db, E, F, G, Ab, Bb
> 
> ...


I played this piece four years ago on a small TV show here  ...I got happy to see it mentioned here now before some years!!!
Who´s performing in your recording???I like a lot the Ashkenazy interpretation???
Actually there´s no modulation on this piece, I think you know...what happen is a change of mode as you already said :wink: !!!


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