# Working Composer - How to make a living as a film or games composer



## borisb2 (Aug 20, 2019)

Has anybody taken this course from thinkspace yet?

Having left the music industry 15 years ago as EDM/pop-producer (working now in visual effects) I thought its maybe a good idea to get an up to date overview before possibly returning in the ring..

Any thoughts?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> Has anybody taken this course from thinkspace yet?
> 
> Having left the music industry 15 years ago as EDM/pop-producer (working now in visual effects) I thought its maybe a good idea to get an up to date overview before possibly returning in the ring..
> 
> Any thoughts?



Budgets are especially for indy titles in the basement (just my opinion of course). There are even dev or single persons often who ask for free soundtracks without any shame and they tell you that you get credited. TO you kinds of devs out there: A big fuck you. Sure inbetween all that junk you find some good stuff but its not easy these days. I did work occasionally on a few titles but I never considered to step into that field simply because I don´t find it attractive enough. I have a few mates who worked on Triple A Titles, and this is cool, but these jobs are also hard to get. Competition is huge out there. So unless you get along with shitty budgets, simply dont do it. Same applies to the indy film scene. Not for all movies but many little projects they want to pay you a couple of hundreds to score a whole short. ..any more questions? Of course everything here reflects just my experience and is my personal opinion.


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## ptram (Aug 20, 2019)

So, the short answer is that I should hold dear my job at the docks?

Paolo


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

ptram said:


> So, the short answer is that I should hold dear my job at the docks?
> 
> Paolo



If you love working on games..try it out. Why not? Maybe you like it and probably you will have different experiences in that regards. Maybe lowering expactations can help.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 20, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> If you love working on games..try it out. Why not? Maybe you like it and probably you will have different experiences in that regards. Maybe lowering expactations can help.



Super sad and pathetic.

Don’t let these people take advantage of you. Go where the money is. And do not let the lure of “exposure” tempt you. Most of these films and games are trash and will not go anywhere. 

If you have no expenses and can live on a tight budget, sure why not? But if you have a reasonable standards for living, keep your day job, do music in the side, and only work for projects with a decent budget.

Anyway, see about entering this contest. You can get paid $100,000 to quit your day job and pursue your passion.

Link: https://www.businessinsider.com/company-offering-100k-to-quit-day-job-and-pursue-passion-2019-8


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Budgets are especially for indy titles in the basement (just my opinion of course). There are even dev or single persons often who ask for free soundtracks without any shame and they tell you that you get credited. TO you kinds of devs out there: A big fuck you. Sure inbetween all that junk you find some good stuff but its not easy these days. I did work occasionally on a few titles but I never considered to step into that field simply because I don´t find it attractive enough. I have a few mates who worked on Triple AAA Games, and this is cool, but these jobs are also hard to get. Competition is huge out there. So unless you get along with shitty budgets, simply dont do it. Same applies to the indy film scene. Not for all movies but many little projects they want to pay you a couple of hundreds to score a whole short. ..any more questions? Of course everything here reflects just my experience and is my personal opinion.


I totally agree
I’ve been asked to have my music used for a credit only and said at my age with my experience I’m not after credits any more. Need paying work for my mortgage and daily living costs. You’d think fellow creatives would get that but alas, they don’t.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 20, 2019)

dcoscina said:


> I totally agree
> I’ve been asked to have my music used for a credit only and said at my age with my experience I’m not after credits any more. Need paying work for my mortgage and daily living costs. You’d think fellow creatives would get that but alas, they don’t.



“What, you really expect for creatives to pay your mortgage for you? No, there is no budget for that. But please, send your music in so you can build your credits, which may some day in the distant future help you to pay a bill. The last thing you want to talk about is money and the first thing you want to talk about is how you can work hard to help the creatives bring their vision to life. You have to be willing to serve others.”

^That is the typical thinking that many creative types, including composers, have been brainwashed into thinking is the right thing.

The moment you stop refusing to work for free is the moment you will become a professional.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 20, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> That is the typical thinking that many creative types, including composers, have been brainwashed into thinking is the right thing.



Yeah, it's ridiculous. You see this type of pep talk and mantra a lot. Drives me up a wall. You often get the feeling that "creative" types are a bunch of childish idealists.


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## muk (Aug 20, 2019)

Time for a classic:


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

ka00 said:


> Unless you are at the top of the industry, creative projects of artistic merit that come your way will usually be low or no budget endeavours where all the people involved want to build a list of credits and make something that isn’t the usual detergent commercial or insurance company annual meeting video they would otherwise be working on.
> 
> An indie director or producer should be completely upfront about this fact though, and clearly indicate the project is for credit only. Or there should be some sort of profit sharing arrangement offered in the slim chance of commercial success.
> 
> It’s a very tough business for all of those involved. Don’t assume the producer is just being cheap. They likely have no money. And if they do, then they absolutely should pay you.



Totally true and still in such cases I am wondering: When I know I have no money to pay someone how I can expect that he works for me. Sure some sort of profit sharing may be an idea, but this has 2 things attached which are carefully to think about: 1). Risk. Means if the product goes crap you will end up still working more or less for free. 2). With many of the profit and royalties based workds you won´t see any dime soon, so in the meantime you still have no money in your pocket.
I simply have that thought: When a producer or game dev is that low on funds that he even can´t afford a composer, sounddesigner whatever, then he should probably simply not hiring one. But there is that thing: There are people out there who are still doing the job regardless under what bad conditions and that proves probably these kinds of devs simply to continue going by that philosophy and trying out because they will probably find somebody who does the job.

When starting out (having no references whatsoever) I can understand that attending low budget productions with less money involved is ok for a startup, but never ever work for free. Because once you do, you kill your reputation as a serious pro because word goes pretty quickly around, I gurantee you that. Sometimes you attend "love" projects where you work for free but this is something within a circle of friends who share and hail the same love and that is more of a private thing. I am talking here really of the usual business.


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## Harzmusic (Aug 20, 2019)

I feel like a lot of people are painting a picture of an industry where you are either at the very top (rich and famous) or at the very bottom (getting no paid work, barely scraping by).

That does not fit with my personal experience over the last couple of years meeting people in the industry. Maybe I'm just lucky, or they are.
At least in Europe there seems to be a surprising number of people populating the middle ground, making a decent living without significant name recognition. You can make a decent living composing and orchestrating TV, Commercials, Corporate or Games and noone will ever know who you are. These working composers are not filthy rich, but I know more than a few people who make a decent living without being recognized as "on the top".

Or you can call anyone who manages to earn a sustainable income from music "at the top of the industry", which makes it a pretty broad top.
It sure is not easy to escape the "working for credits" part of the "industry", but there is still a real industry there. I can't say if it was better 15 years ago, this is all I know.
Just don't expect to be self-sustaining and earn good money from day one.


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## borisb2 (Aug 20, 2019)

Oh well ..

I made a good living working as a EDM-producer, but that‘s a long time ago. At the moment (actually since many years) I am enjoying the other side of the media-spectrum, visual effects. Worked on some decent movies. But it feels like here you‘re really just a screw in the system these days. Not sure how many vfx-people worked on the last Avengers - I was 1 of 2000+ I guess .. But of course I didn‘t plan to jeopardize anything at this point. I‘m more or less investigating options. I left the music industry for a reason. Not sure if I ever will come back full time. The passion to compose did come back, so thats a good start.

But... we didnt talk about that course 😋 has anybody taken it? Is it worth it?


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## TimCox (Aug 20, 2019)

Currently taking the course and I think it's pretty great. Don't expect it to be some magic button but if you'd like some better insight on the stuff behind the scenes and some really great inspiration on self-promotion I think it's certainly worth it. I should mention that I did get it for the early bird pricing as well


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## Jaap (Aug 20, 2019)

Harzmusic said:


> I feel like a lot of people are painting a picture of an industry where you are either at the very top (rich and famous) or at the very bottom (getting no paid work, barely scraping by).
> 
> That does not fit with my personal experience over the last couple of years meeting people in the industry. Maybe I'm just lucky, or they are.
> At least in Europe there seems to be a surprising number of people populating the middle ground, making a decent living without significant name recognition. You can make a decent living composing and orchestrating TV, Commercials, Corporate or Games and noone will ever know who you are. These working composers are not filthy rich, but I know more than a few people who make a decent living without being recognized as "on the top".
> ...



This sums it up pretty well for me and well said . This is also also my situation. I am working fulltime in this industry since 2002 (in many different roles) and am totally not a "somebody" or on the top of the foodchain (nor planning to be btw). Income is very decent. I have worked as audio designer in the game industry (actually doing pretty well financially with indie games, but that was between 2008 and 2013) and otherwise as library music composer, sound designer and other roles as composer or audio guy.

I don't work for free, my motto is that if somebody gets paid in the process, I should be paid as well. I am also not picky when it comes to work. I have worked on really nice games, but also on games with titles like 888 Ladies Bingo and Piggies Payout (slot games). It was actually sort of nice to work on them and also quite a challenge to and please the customer and not go insane myself and put something original in it. I did ghostwriting and ghost sound design for people in urgent need etc etc. My music from library music is used from promo's for Kentucky Tourism (no joke) till high end commercials and everything in between. If you are willing to put a lot of work and energy into it, it is possible to have a healthy income from it, also if you have to start from zero (and everybody starts at that point). Give it a few years time to establish and to pick your strenghts and strategy.
I sometimes explain to it to outsiders of the industry (friends and family) that it can be compared to being a designer or product specialist at IKEA. Ofcourse most people dream to design and to develop for the top of the line, but the majority of work is in the middle region for all the products that are around us in our daily life.

And don't focus and rely too much on the roads that others have taken. Try to figure out your own road as the whole process is for everyone unique. Good luck!

Oh and as last addition, if you are thinking about the game industry then also learn sound design and working with tools like Fmod and Wwise. The more allround you are as audio guy, the better, specially when working in the indie and lower top tier of games.


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## borisb2 (Aug 20, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Totally true and still in such cases I am wondering: When I know I have no money to pay someone how I can expect that he works for me.


And by the way .. not that this doesnt happen here in the vfx-industry as well - heavily - .. young director asking "hey, I have that super cool independant film coming up and I need that explosion full frame .. should look like the one in the last Star Wars, but I dont have any budget - and I need it next week .." .. ehm, nope, not possible. Never did that. But it's tempting for young vfx-artists, trying to improve their showreel


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## wst3 (Aug 21, 2019)

The "democratization" of music production has been, and probably always will be something of a double-edged sword. This is complicated by the fact that some people have figured out a way to squeeze the money out of it by making it seem glamorous to work for free.

This is nothing new! In the 1980s people were begging to work in certain glamour industries (MI being a big culprit) and as financial types had taken the reins from engineering types it happened - far too often!

I'd love to report that it has self corrected, and in fact it did for a while, but now MI has become big business, with mergers, acquisitions, big box stores (that are themselves failing after killing off smaller stores), and the like.

Greed is a very ugly thing!

All of which is somewhat off-topic... I've found the music training courses from Thinkspace to be outstanding. My favorite so far was the Blueprints series, captures a ton of information in very short order, and Guy is hilarious as the presenter.

I do not know if they can do the same thing with the business side of things, I would not be willing wager either way. They are very good educators, but this is a bit far afield for them, and I think in general a bit tricky as a subject. I am curious to hear from folks braver than I who dip their toes in first.


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## dgburns (Aug 21, 2019)

Focus on finding storytellers you like. Hopefully they actually like and want to use your music.

g’luck


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## dannthr (Aug 21, 2019)

I think it's worth interrogating why you're interested in games. 

Personally, I love music and sound; and I know no matter what I do that it'll always be a part of my life. However, Game Development holds extra appeal for me because it provides additional intellectual stimulation and in my mind is the (commercial) frontier of music and sound design for art and entertainment. 

The best game projects are the ones where you can create a profound and interesting conversation with your audience--one where the music and sound receives and responds to feedback without leaving the experience.

I spent many, many years freelancing and it was a real feast-or-famine kind of experience. I had many different day jobs and temp jobs to help make ends meet and often times money made from a gig meant pouring it back into the business (sample libraries, computer maintenance, etc.).

It was lean living, often times, and I never made enough to get more than the standard deduction during tax season, even the year I freelanced for LucasArts.

There were months when I was a week or two out from paying rent with money I didn't have and had no idea yet how I was going to get.

If you're looking at the Game Dev scene because you want to increase your freelancing income and you're eyeing those buy-out rates (vs. royalties because games and software have no concept or respect for royalties), then you might not enjoy it, I don't know, but it's worth asking why you want to do it.

For me it is a personal passion and sometimes that gets you noticed.

I lucked out, found a job I liked and more importantly, a job that liked me back (so to speak), appreciates the mix of creative and technical passion I have for game development and game audio experiences and am sitting very comfortably financially speaking (some in ways a kid who grew up in the projects never thought would ever happen).

Everyone's experience and path is going to be different and the opportunities that come to people are unequal and unfair, but they happen, sometimes, and in ways you can't always predict.


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## X-Bassist (Aug 21, 2019)

dgburns said:


> Focus on finding storytellers you like. Hopefully they actually like and want to use your music.
> 
> g’luck



For any creative field where you work with creative bosses (yes, directors and producers are creative) the key has always been finding people making the games or films you want to work on, then approach them. Have a reel and resume ready (if you don’t have at least a few years experience, wait to approach bigger players) but your personality and enthusiasm for everything that creative does (you did your research first, right?) is what will sell them to at least look at what you do. And if they like what they hear and are fed up with who they have used in the past (surprisingly happens all the time nowadays) you will be their their next big “discovery”.

That relationship is key, because if they are good they will work again and again, and if they like you and your music, your in. Did I mention money? That’s because it’s a given for people working on a decent level project... even shorts. You just don’t talk money until you make that connection and see what they have. They may want a few cues first, or they may want 140 minutes (try much more on a game), so wait to view the project. Then go away and send them a proper bid, based on the needs, the budget range, and how badly you want the job. Be proactive. They don’t know what it takes, you do. So set your price and see what they say.

Nowadays a flat rate is becoming more common, but you can base the price on a certain number of minutes, then cut back the minutes if your price needs to be lowered. It keeps you on the project without short changing you. If they love what they hear they may come up with more money for more minutes. But try to stick to your guns, you are setting a precident with the first film that will effect many others, no matter how often they say “on the next one, the money will be great!”. It never is, and they may not return if they feel the budget would have to match what they promised. Make it easy on them and you, just deal with each film as it comes.

I would encourage composers to get out there and find filmmakers, don’t assume they will find you. The one think that has changed is the thousands of music submissions they get. So show them why you are different. Score on of their scenes if you have to, show them how you would do it better (balls right? But it works some of the time and shows confidence, which is why some young people get amazing gigs- blind confidence ). One email back may be all you need to get the ball rolling.

This may be a more solid path than “let me put up a website and see if they notice me” approach. As mentioned the competition is just too thick to be passive. So most creatives have to be good personality people too.

It’s crazy (I agree) but Bernard Hermann would never make it today (maybe commercials?) if he was just starting out.


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## borisb2 (Aug 21, 2019)

dannthr said:


> I think it's worth interrogating why you're interested in games.


I didn't mention being specifically interested in games. I was asking about that new course from thinkspace (which has game composer in the title). I bought the course btw. It's a really good / honest overview of the whole music-industry and market-trends (production music, games, film etc.) .. Composing wise I'm leaning more towards orchestral / hybrid at the moment .. did a lot of sound design during my EDM-times .. but that was on Akai S3000 and EXS-24 from emagic  ..

As mentioned I haven't even decided to jump back in the music-ring again. I left when napster and ringtones-production emerged. Bad bad times.. Before that we had some chart-entries with dance projects etc... these were good times. Now many years later, working on Battle Angle and Mortal engines in vfx I realized, wait a minute, wasn't JunkieXL EDM-producer at the same time .. look what he is doing today .. well, I chose a different path I guess


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