# 99 dollar orchestra?



## bryla

Don't know where to post this so please move it, dear Mods.

Does anyone know where they went?

I booked a September 2017 session and haven't heard anything from them. They don't respond to my e-mails or to the chat messages on their website.


----------



## Matt Riley

I have a booking with them too scheduled for this past spring. After a month of not hearing anything from them, I emailed them and was told they haven't recorded it yet because 

"we didn't have any BASIC orchestra recording sessions, only London sessions this past month. We'll be recording it as soon as we have an available recording session in Lisbon!"

That was months ago. I've had so much going on that I haven't checked in again. Now I'm worried! Emailing Andre now...


----------



## bryla

Strange since they sell the products!

I only had to record 10 seconds of music so I wanted to give it a try to see how it worked.


----------



## bryla

This really grinds my gears: Just received an e-mail from them about their new LA Sessions. They still haven't responded to my other e-mails and I still don't know if they recorded my music.


----------



## Paul T McGraw

Any resolution to these issues?


----------



## thov72

I won a session at a fundraiser. Had 1 email contact with Andre. Submitted a score half a year ago. Never heard of them again.


----------



## Jdiggity1

Not sure what the site said when you all made your purchase, but it currently says recording dates are in January 2018.

When i used them a couple of years ago, i think they were only doing it once a year.


----------



## thov72

dang Jayden....never ever realized that....so....I can still be hopeful.
Thanks!
edit: I swear the last time I visited the site (long time ago)there was a date in 2017


----------



## N.Caffrey

I used it once. Wish I never did. Wasted $160


----------



## bryla

I just received an e-mail saying they are recording tomorrow. Date said September 2017. 

It’s the silence that bothers me the most.


----------



## Nmargiotta

N.Caffrey said:


> I used it once. Wish I never did. Wasted $160



I saw the Hollywood Sessions as well and reached out to them about being present for the session, they said “we would love to have you come to the studio for the session” that made me a bit more confident as I am local to LA. I’m curious where the session will be held? after reading the above comments I’m feeling sceptical again. I booked a Lisbon $160 session to give it a go before dropping more on the HW session, recording date shows as Jan 2018. I hope it actually happens.

What was the worst part of the experience N. Caffrey?


----------



## N.Caffrey

Not knowing exactly when the piece would have been recorded and find out they played for 2 minutes rather than 6. They said we're gonna play your piece from 1pm to 6pm. So that's already crazy, like to have to spend 6h because they can't tell you when. If I remember correctly I had 6 minutes, and my piece was like 45 seconds, so I thought I had time to have also stems. Like 2 times all the orchestra, then 2 times strings alone etc. When I finally said oh wow this is my piece, they only played it 2 times! And I repeat this, 2 times. I thought there was a mistake, like maybe they were going to play it again later. So I wrote in the chat. Because instead of 6 minutes it was more like 2 minutes! So since I was really upset they played it again later.. A friend of mine got a refund. Really, Ive never heard anyone saying good things about them, and my experience was awful. I hope you'll have a better experience but I doubt. They don't reply to emails as well. I'm surprised they're still around!


----------



## NoamL

I had a not so good experience with them as well unfortunately, in 2015. They are HAULING through all these pieces with 6 hour recording sessions. The quality you can expect is if a community orchestra (by US standards) did a read through or rehearsal (not concert quality). So if you write some kind of pretty strings pad piece that doesn't challenge their sightreading, intonation, orchestration balance, or rely on the brass to still have chops 4 hours into a session, then you can get some nice results for the cost. If you don't write inside that box (the piece I wrote was challenging with a lot of wind/brass solos), you're gonna have a baaad time. But overall it just shows how those "expensive" LA union orchestras are worth every penny.

With all that being said it might still be worth it, for people who have never recorded live before to get some orchestra experience on the cheap. Just go in knowing that you're paying for the experience not the product - you're not going to get anything out of this that's worth putting in a portfolio etc.


----------



## Desire Inspires

So is it better to just tweak Cinestrings instead of playing around with these guys?


----------



## Will Armitage

Not to derail the thread, but I had a nightmare of an experience with the 99 dollar orchestra. After submitting my payment/score, I got jerked around for 6+ months. I didn't receive a refund until I involved my lawyer.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Desire Inspires said:


> So is it better to just tweak Cinestrings instead of playing around with these guys?


I think you had enough feedback to understand that your money is better elsewhere!


----------



## Desire Inspires

N.Caffrey said:


> I think you had enough feedback to understand that your money is better elsewhere!



On good. About to check out YouTube on how to finesse these Kontakt libraries to sound like the real deal. Technology is awesome! Why waste money on “the real deal” when I already have it inside my computer?!?


----------



## bryla

Recording orchestras here on a regular basis I appreciate the quality of real musicians a heck more than samples. I only wanted to try this as I said because I had a jingle if no more than 10 seconds. 

I have asked for the live dream of it and asked for section recording. 

I urge them to do this professionally and not jerk around. One thing is to try to reply to emails.


----------



## bryla

So I got my recordings a couple of days ago. Here are my points of critique:

- I’m still missing the video recording (I asked them for it since I couldn't watch the live stream)
- the horns were not playing: I mean not at all... in any take.
- there was a useless take because of a phone ringing.
- sections not recorded separately as requested. And let me remind you the entire cue was 10 seconds long. They spent no more than 2 minutes on this I bet.

Still waiting for the video recording...


----------



## JJP

If the horns were written but aren't playing on any take, that's basically theft. You paid them for something and they took your money, but then did not give you what was agreed.

I wish you were the first person I've heard who had bad experiences with these folks. It's amazing they can keep giving such poor results and continue to have people book sessions. I guess enough people say, "I can afford to lose $99 if it doesn't work out."

For the unscrupulous, it's a pretty good business model.


----------



## Mike Marino

bryla said:


> So I got my recordings a couple of days ago. Here are my points of critique:
> 
> - I’m still missing the video recording (I asked them for it since I couldn't watch the live stream)
> - the horns were not playing: I mean not at all... in any take.
> - there was a useless take because of a phone ringing.
> - sections not recorded separately as requested. And let me remind you the entire cue was 10 seconds long. They spent no more than 2 minutes on this I bet.
> 
> Still waiting for the video recording...


When I recorded with them in 2015 (the project you helped me on) my string section was supposed to be: 5-4-3-4-1. The video showed it to be 3-4-1-3-1. The conductor at the time supposedly OK'd a break for the other players and that's how it was recorded. That was only the beginning of the problems as I also had players not playing.

I contacted Andre after that session to inform him of these problems (and more). He assured me I'd get another session later that year. I followed up with him and never heard anything back. The lesson for me was (and still is): You get what you pay for.


----------



## bryla

Mike Marino said:


> The lesson for me was (and still is): You get what you pay for.


Well for 850 USD Per hour for 26 players you Can find it cheaper and much better in Eastern Europe. You just have to setup the sharing of the session yourself.

But still as JJP points out: if I paid for the horns, you paid for 5 firsts, they weren’t there, we have not gotten the product we paid for.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Terrible, shameless people. They should really be out of business and stop fucking with people


----------



## bryla

I remember the joy I had when they promoted the kickstarter campaign. I was happy to see that many people and especially students would get access to some sort of symphonic recording. To anyone out there: let this thread be a warning then


----------



## JJP

bryla said:


> I remember the joy I had when they promoted the kickstarter campaign. I was happy to see that many people and especially students would get access to some sort of symphonic recording. To anyone out there: let this thread be a warning then



I had the opposite reaction when I saw the Kickstarter. I was quite concerned some people in the process would be ripped off. (I hate seeing any of us musicians abused.) I know the musician contracting and recording process quite well by now, and I couldn't determine how they could deliver what they were promising with any quality for that amount of money.

I followed them with great interest on the chance that there was something I was missing. Did this have potential for a new business model? Alas, it seems they are like the tech companies that repeatedly appear claiming they will revolutionize some industry before they fully understand how that industry works. Sadly, most of my fears were correct and several people in the process were not treated professionally.

Personally, I found it disgusting when they scheduled LA sessions. I've seen that scam before where somebody contracts a bunch of 3rd-rate musicians or even students in Los Angeles and then sells them to unsuspecting people as Hollywood studio musicians.


----------



## bryla

JJP said:


> Personally, I found it disgusting when they scheduled LA sessions. I've seen that scam before where somebody contracts a bunch of 3rd-rate musicians or even students in Los Angeles and then sells them to unsuspecting people as Hollywood studio musicians.


That has also happened to me from a different company!


----------



## Noam Guterman

My experience with the 99 dolar orchestra; Receive recordings -> remain 100% virtual. Sloppy!


----------



## bryla

Noam Guterman said:


> My experience with the 99 dolar orchestra; Receive recordings -> remain 100% virtual. Sloppy!


Yeah I ended up mixing in a Noteperformer export from Sibelius pretty high


----------



## Desire Inspires

$99 for an orchestra? What the hell do you expect? 

I don’t understand when people pay a low price for things but want high quality. 

Such nonsense and entitlement with the consumer mindset these days.


----------



## Mike Marino

Desire Inspires said:


> $99 for an orchestra? What the hell do you expect?


At least the number of players they were told would be in their session. And that the session length purchased would be the session time actually spent on the piece. That's what the hell should be expected....at a bare minimum. They missed the bar already.



Desire Inspires said:


> I don’t understand when people pay a low price for things but want high quality.


First of all, $99 is the smallest session they have, ranging all the way up to full days and projects. If they can't get the proper amount of players loaded into a session what sense would it make spending thousands upon thousands of dollars with them for full sessions or projects. If they can't pay attention to detail in the small things there's less of a chance to trust them on something larger and more important. And their demos didn't sound bad at all, especially at their discounted price.



Desire Inspires said:


> Such nonsense and entitlement with the consumer mindset these days.


When it comes to conversations on this forum you have the tact of a train hitting a nitroglycerin plant.


----------



## NoamL

@Desire Inspires
It's $99 to get 7 minutes of orchestra time. Since my piece was 2.5 minutes long I paid about $250 iirc to get half an hour. I still only got a couple full length takes and several more "pickups." They spent a pretty frustrating fraction of time, maybe a third, talking. I've sat plenty of LA sessions and the difference is night and day, again, that's why the professionals are expensive....

WRT what @JJP said, the people I really feel for are those on the original Kickstarter who paid THOUSANDS of dollars to get consecutive hours of recording time and recorded almost half an hour to an hour of "finished" music.


----------



## Desire Inspires

You cannot get professional results with an amateur budget.

This ain’t rocket science. If you want quality, work with quality professionals who charge a professional rate. 

Do not expect a filet mignon with a hamburger budget. Learn your lesson and aim higher.


----------



## bryla

Desire Inspires said:


> You cannot get professional results with an amateur budget.
> 
> This ain’t rocket science. If you want quality, work with quality professionals who charge a professional rate.
> 
> Do not expect a filet mignon with a hamburger budget. Learn your lesson and aim higher.


It's actually not the quality of the performance. I work with symphony orchestras all around the world and have come to have quite a good grasp of what to expect from different orchestras and what to expect per 7 minutes of session time.

What my complaints are about are purely technical for that matter:
- If I write an e-mail asking when the recording date is I expect an answer, not a promotion for another of their services a week later
- when my service include 4 horns, I expect 4 horns to play. If I ordered a cheeseburger and got one without cheese, I would notify the seller whether its a gourmet restaurant or McD and I would expect cheese.
- If I ask for strings alone and have planned for it, written them about it, and budgeted the time for it, I would expect them to do it. They say you can expect to record 1 minute of music in a 7 minute slot, so when my jingle was only 10 seconds - you do the math.
- when they say a video recording is available if you notify them, you'd like one I would expect them to deliver since I notified them.

This ain't rocket science.

I only did this to try them out, since I record a lot and would like to see how they did. Now when I have a feature film to record I won't even bother with their more expensive package, because they didn't deliver what I bought.


----------



## N.Caffrey

omiroad said:


> Good job defending people who lie and don't communicatie. Really doing everyone a favor here.



He's just a troll


----------



## Matt Riley

After my March session was delayed, delayed and delayed again I still haven't receive my files. Andre promised on Oct 17 that it would be recorded on Oct 27. I followed up on Nov 4 but haven't heard back from him. This is getting ridiculous. I'm in the process of asking for my money back via Paypal's resolution center.


----------



## Desire Inspires

omiroad said:


> Good job defending people who lie and don't communicatie. Really doing everyone a favor here.



I am not defending this company. They suck! But I would only expect low quality for such a low price.

I wouldn’t get mad at this company. They will either succeed by selling low quality products to cheap people or will fail by selling low quality products to cheap people.

And why do people on forums start attacking others with a different viewpoint? I don’t mind disagreements, but is it really necessary to call me bad names and say I defend bad businesses? 

I don’t have time for the pettiness. Don’t attack me, because I am not anyone’s enemy. Be cool!


----------



## dimtsak

I recorded in February a 7 minute session for a 1:20 minute piece, 99 dollars.
First real recording in my life so it was mostly for the experience.
I watched the live stream, they played the piece about 2-3 times.
I glued 2 different takes to get a good final result. (My piece was not that difficult)
I recieved the files after a few weeks i think.

Personally it was a good experience.
Here is the piece, mixed mostly from the stereo room microphones.


----------



## thereus

dimtsak said:


> I recorded in February a 7 minute session for a 1:20 minute piece, 99 dollars.
> First real recording in my life so it was mostly for the experience.
> I watched the live stream, they played the piece about 2-3 times.
> I glued 2 different takes to get a good final result. (My piece was not that difficult)
> I recieved the files after a few weeks i think.
> 
> Personally it was a good experience.
> Here is the piece, mixed mostly from the stereo room microphones.




Wow, aside from anything else, they suck.


----------



## andremiranda2

Mike Marino said:


> When I recorded with them in 2015 (the project you helped me on) my string section was supposed to be: 5-4-3-4-1. The video showed it to be 3-4-1-3-1. The conductor at the time supposedly OK'd a break for the other players and that's how it was recorded. That was only the beginning of the problems as I also had players not playing.
> 
> I contacted Andre after that session to inform him of these problems (and more). He assured me I'd get another session later that year. I followed up with him and never heard anything back. The lesson for me was (and still is): You get what you pay for.



Hi Thomas, sorry we didn't record stems separately. I believe that we didn't to it because we didn't have that indication on the score and were unaware of that detail. If you would like, we would love to re-record your piece, or another piece for free.


----------



## andremiranda2

JJP said:


> I had the opposite reaction when I saw the Kickstarter. I was quite concerned some people in the process would be ripped off. (I hate seeing any of us musicians abused.) I know the musician contracting and recording process quite well by now, and I couldn't determine how they could deliver what they were promising with any quality for that amount of money.
> 
> I followed them with great interest on the chance that there was something I was missing. Did this have potential for a new business model? Alas, it seems they are like the tech companies that repeatedly appear claiming they will revolutionize some industry before they fully understand how that industry works. Sadly, most of my fears were correct and several people in the process were not treated professionally.
> 
> Personally, I found it disgusting when they scheduled LA sessions. I've seen that scam before where somebody contracts a bunch of 3rd-rate musicians or even students in Los Angeles and then sells them to unsuspecting people as Hollywood studio musicians.



Hi JJP,

If you are based in the UK or California you are invited to attend one of our sessions either in London or in LA to see how good our musicians are. In fact, not only we use union musicians in London for example, but we also have selected a great selection of session musicians.


----------



## andremiranda2

omiroad said:


> Good job defending people who lie and don't communicate. Really doing everyone a favor here.



Please let us know if we can help by reaching out to us at [email protected]


----------



## andremiranda2

Matt Riley said:


> After my March session was delayed, delayed and delayed again I still haven't receive my files. Andre promised on Oct 17 that it would be recorded on Oct 27. I followed up on Nov 4 but haven't heard back from him. This is getting ridiculous. I'm in the process of asking for my money back via Paypal's resolution center.



Hi Matt, we're sorry about that. We just got through sorting this out. The booking was not for a standard recording session, but a trio that had to be recorded at the end of one of our sessions. This detail thew us off. Already reached out via e-mail.


----------



## andremiranda2

thov72 said:


> I won a session at a fundraiser. Had 1 email contact with Andre. Submitted a score half a year ago. Never heard of them again.



Hi Thov72,

We would love to go ahead and record the free recording session that you were awarded via the VI Control contest. It was our donation for VI Control, which we gladly gave away. Would you be able to submit your scores through our website at http://www.99dollarorchestra.com (www.99dollarorchestra.com) > Upload scores ?


----------



## andremiranda2

bryla said:


> This really grinds my gears: Just received an e-mail from them about their new LA Sessions. They still haven't responded to my other e-mails and I still don't know if they recorded my music.



Sorry about the late answer. At this time your recording session was scheduled and happened as planned on October 27th.


----------



## andremiranda2

N.Caffrey said:


> Not knowing exactly when the piece would have been recorded and find out they played for 2 minutes rather than 6. They said we're gonna play your piece from 1pm to 6pm. So that's already crazy, like to have to spend 6h because they can't tell you when. If I remember correctly I had 6 minutes, and my piece was like 45 seconds, so I thought I had time to have also stems. Like 2 times all the orchestra, then 2 times strings alone etc. When I finally said oh wow this is my piece, they only played it 2 times! And I repeat this, 2 times. I thought there was a mistake, like maybe they were going to play it again later. So I wrote in the chat. Because instead of 6 minutes it was more like 2 minutes! So since I was really upset they played it again later.. A friend of mine got a refund. Really, Ive never heard anyone saying good things about them, and my experience was awful. I hope you'll have a better experience but I doubt. They don't reply to emails as well. I'm surprised they're still around!



Hi N Caffrey, sorry about your experience. However, during your recording session we recorded your piece 2 times at first, which was the recording time purchased (the time spent when the conductor talks about your music and corrects stuff with the orchestra from take to take also counts for the session time). After a few minutes we recorded your piece again as per your request. We delivered the service, but I believe our budget sessions are not the best fit for you and you would be happier with a more premium service, which we also offer.

Finally, we do offer refunds when the situation justifies it and we also re-record pieces sometimes when despite having delivered the service purchased we want the composer to be happy.


----------



## andremiranda2

NoamL said:


> I had a not so good experience with them as well unfortunately, in 2015. They are HAULING through all these pieces with 6 hour recording sessions. The quality you can expect is if a community orchestra (by US standards) did a read through or rehearsal (not concert quality). So if you write some kind of pretty strings pad piece that doesn't challenge their sightreading, intonation, orchestration balance, or rely on the brass to still have chops 4 hours into a session, then you can get some nice results for the cost. If you don't write inside that box (the piece I wrote was challenging with a lot of wind/brass solos), you're gonna have a baaad time. But overall it just shows how those "expensive" LA union orchestras are worth every penny.
> 
> With all that being said it might still be worth it, for people who have never recorded live before to get some orchestra experience on the cheap. Just go in knowing that you're paying for the experience not the product - you're not going to get anything out of this that's worth putting in a portfolio etc.



I agree with you. Our budget Basic sessions are good if you write for them. A lot of composers got amazing stuff out of them and paid super small amounts. We're happy to provide that opportunity. In London for example, it's a different story, we use Union people and Abbey Road Studios and Metropolis studios. These sessions are more expensive, but you do get what you pay for. The quality is great and the price allows us to manage the sessions more to the standards of professional composers that need every bit of musicianship that the orchestra can give them.


----------



## Matt Riley

andremiranda2 said:


> Hi Matt, we're sorry about that. We just got through sorting this out. The booking was not for a standard recording session, but a trio that had to be recorded at the end of one of our sessions. This detail thew us off. Already reached out via e-mail.


I just got your email. Thanks!


----------



## bryla

andremiranda2 said:


> Hi Thomas, sorry we didn't record stems separately. I believe that we didn't to it because we didn't have that indication on the score and were unaware of that detail. If you would like, we would love to re-record your piece, or another piece for free.


It said so on the top left corner of the conductor score. Also the recording I bought was for a session in September – not October 27.

Again I would like to remind that NONE of my criticism is about the players and their quality.


----------



## JJP

andremiranda2 said:


> If you are based in the UK or California you are invited to attend one of our sessions either in London or in LA to see how good our musicians are. In fact, not only we use union musicians in London for example, but we also have selected a great selection of session musicians



If you don't use union musicians in LA, you're not getting most of the regular studio folks. I've also heard the quality of the recordings produced by your business. It's not acceptable for my needs.


----------



## andremiranda2

bryla said:


> It said so on the top left corner of the conductor score. Also the recording I bought was for a session in September – not October 27.
> 
> Again I would like to remind that NONE of my criticism is about the players and their quality.



Hi Thomas, I see! There was a lapse there. We would love to record your piece again so you can have it stemmed out! Sorry about that...


----------



## andremiranda2

JJP said:


> If you don't use union musicians in LA, you're not getting most of the regular studio folks. I've also heard the quality of the recordings produced by your business. It's not acceptable for my needs.



I have to defend the quality of our London and LA sessions here. We do use union players. We use Abbey Road Studios in London and the musicians are the same that record for AAA Hollywood films very month. I'm not speaking of the budged sessions that are being discussed here, but of the London Sessions. Those sessions are great because when we deliver music to our clients expectations are met and it's gratifying to see that. That's the reason why we're promoting the premium sessions with discounts now. We want composers to understand that our initial basic orchestra for $99 does not represent our service anymore. Like everybody, we evolved and try to get better every year.


----------



## andremiranda2

omiroad said:


> I expect a free playthrough to make up for the stress of reading this thread!





omiroad said:


> What about my free session though...


 Hi Omiroad, could you please e-mail us at [email protected] letting us know what session you purchased before and the issues regarding it so we can fix those? Thank you!


----------



## JJP

andremiranda2 said:


> I have to defend the quality of our London and LA sessions here. We do use union players.



I didn't realize that you recorded on an AFM (union) contract in Los Angeles. I, and I'm sure others on this forum, am curious to know how it was structured. Usually you can't do multiple, unrelated projects on an AFM session for a single fee. That's because different projects may fall under completely different agreements. How did you sort out all the signatories?

I think the only exception is a demo session. Demo recordings then can't be used commercially without an additional payment.


----------



## chibear

When the subject of the $99 orchestra came up awhile ago, the concept sent chills down my spine for the future of session musicians anywhere, however (and this is when you actually get something for your money).......

Looking at the setup on the video from @dimptsak, it would be next to impossible to get a proper balance with brass that close to a minute number of strings ..... Waaaay too much bleed through no matter what mics you use. Is that a stone wall in the back.....really??? That would really help matters a lot.....not! Also, intonation problems and/or possibly a wrong note or 2 in the violins that obviously weren't fixed.

The old adages "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" and "you get what you pay for" definitely apply here.


----------



## andremiranda2

chibear said:


> When the subject of the $99 orchestra came up awhile ago, the concept sent chills down my spine for the future of session musicians anywhere, however (and this is when you actually get something for your money).......
> 
> Looking at the setup on the video from @dimptsak, it would be next to impossible to get a proper balance with brass that close to a minute number of strings ..... Waaaay too much bleed through no matter what mics you use. Is that a stone wall in the back.....really??? That would really help matters a lot.....not! Also, intonation problems and/or possibly a wrong note or 2 in the violins that obviously weren't fixed.
> 
> The old adages "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" and "you get what you pay for" definitely apply here.



The saying is correct. You get what you pay for, although we try to do the best we can. For example, in our premium sessions in London we use Abbey Road and Metropolis. It makes a difference. The musicians are different, the studios and engineers are different. The price is higher, but in my opinion it's worth it in order to get the best resources possible working on your music.


----------



## JJP

andremiranda2 said:


> I have to defend the quality of our London and LA sessions here. We do use union players.



Wanted to follow up. One of your previous posts implied that you use union musicians for your Los Angeles sessions. Is this correct? If not, it wouldn't be right to give people the wrong impression in a public forum like this.


----------



## andremiranda2

JJP said:


> Wanted to follow up. One of your previous posts implied that you use union musicians for your Los Angeles sessions. Is this correct? If not, it wouldn't be right to give people the wrong impression in a public forum like this.



We use Union players in London and we will be having our first batch of sessions is LA. We also intend to use union musicians, paying the due fees etc... We hope we can find a way of letting composers use the music for commercial purposes as the musicians will be hired under that category.


----------



## Daryl

andremiranda2 said:


> We use Union players in London...


How do you know? Do you ask to see their Union card in advance?

I would also point out that, unlike the US, there is no problem doing library music in the UK, but there are still potential usage issues, so please make sure that you advise the composers accordingly.


----------



## JJP

andremiranda2 said:


> We use Union players in London and we will be having our first batch of sessions is LA. We also intend to use union musicians, paying the due fees etc... We hope we can find a way of letting composers use the music for commercial purposes as the musicians will be hired under that category.



Based on posts here and the information on <99dollarorchestra.com>, this company is...

1. signing people up for sessions in LA in January and accepting payments, but has not confirmed if it's a union session or not;

2. advertising these LA sessions on the website as "Perfect for Film, TV"





3. stating in this forum, "We hope we can find a way of letting the composers use the music for commercial purposes".

#1 is problematic. The conflict between #2 and #3 is frightening.


----------



## andremiranda2

JJP said:


> Based on posts here and the information on <99dollarorchestra.com>, this company is...
> 
> 1. signing people up for sessions in LA in January and accepting payments, but has not confirmed if it's a union session or not;
> 
> 2. advertising these LA sessions on the website as "Perfect for Film, TV"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. stating in this forum, "We hope we can find a way of letting the composers use the music for commercial purposes".
> 
> #1 is problematic. The conflict between #2 and #3 is frightening.



1- As I've said on the forum, on the previous post, the sessions will be made using union musicians. That's clear.

2- In our opinion recording in LA is perfect for film and tv.

3- What I mean is that we will follow union rules in in the US, in the case of the LA recordings, scrupulously. Our sessions will fall under a commercial release format, so the composers will be able to release the music commercially. If there are any residuals to be paid to the union when the music gets aired, that's between the composer and the union because we as a company give away all the ownership that we may have of the phonogram away to the composer. (Master rights).


----------



## Daryl

andremiranda2 said:


> 3- What I mean is that we will follow union rules in in the US, in the case of the LA recordings, scrupulously. Our sessions will fall under a commercial release format, so the composers will be able to release the music commercially.


However, it can't be used for sync via a music library, can it? Or for a film?


----------



## JNStrauss

this really is a great read. with so much competition out there no wonder there needs to be budget offerings. so many in thread have mentioned how worrying it is. cheaper sessions, how are the players getting union rates with sessions so cheap. what shortcuts are being taken. 
i compare the price to others posting on this page the last few days like the start up 
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/shared-orchestral-session-available.66222/#post-4147901
and the prices make way more logistic sense. 
i guess the more choice the better for all. we can then choose the quality which makes fit for our wallet


----------



## JJP

andremiranda2 said:


> 3- What I mean is that we will follow union rules in in the US, in the case of the LA recordings, scrupulously. Our sessions will fall under a commercial release format, so the composers will be able to release the music commercially. If there are any residuals to be paid to the union when the music gets aired, that's between the composer and the union because we as a company give away all the ownership that we may have of the phonogram away to the composer. (Master rights).



Oh my! You really need to talk to a decent contractor in the USA and sort this out. It doesn't work like that, especially if you're advertising these sessions as being appropriate for TV and film. You are setting yourself and your clients for a lot of frustration.

Please call a reputable contractor who knows how AFM recordings work before you take anyone else's money. You are putting your clients and any producers who use these recordings at financial risk. It's unethical to solicit these sessions until you understand the terms you're offering to your clients.


----------



## Scoremixer

Daryl said:


> How do you know? Do you ask to see their Union card in advance?
> 
> I would also point out that, unlike the US, there is no problem doing library music in the UK, but there are still potential usage issues, so please make sure that you advise the composers accordingly.



The MU in the UK is much like the AFM in that there are different contracts to cover different usages, with (sometimes wildly) differing rates. Therefore doing a mixed session for different composers, different projects and different end uses would be nigh on impossible on an official MU rate card, not to mention the restrictions on the total amount of music you're allowed to record in a single session in the UK. It could be possible to do a dark date with MU musos, but with a whole bunch of composers Source Connecting in and probable video streaming of the whole event, it wouldn't be very dark! 

It's also not OK to place the burden of clearing rights and further usage onto the composer. It's possible to buy out rights for further/extended usage after recording sessions when circumstances change, but you won't be able to call up the MU and say "I'd like to buy UK broadcast rights for this piece I recorded back in September... pro rata though, cos they only worked on my piece for 20 minutes, honest..."


----------



## Daryl

Scoremixer said:


> Therefore doing a mixed session for different composers, different projects and different end uses would be nigh on impossible on an official MU rate card...



Exactly.


----------



## thereus

Daryl said:


> Exactly.




Are we music makers or lawyers? What a tangled web of beaurocratic restrictions!


----------



## Daryl

thereus said:


> Are we music makers or lawyers? What a tangled web of beaurocratic restrictions!


When it comes to working with musicians that have strictly laid out terms and conditions, you need to understand the agreements, or you end up with unusable product. There are many reason for the restrictions; some of them good, some of them historical, and in a similar way to the Matrix, some of them can be bent and some broken. However, some can't be altered at all, and have to be followed to the letter. Someone who doesn't understand this has no right to be offering a LA/UK based recording service to composers, in my view.


----------



## Matt Riley

Seems like a big deterrent to using union musicians to me. Can't they sign a WFH like everyone else?


----------



## HiEnergy

Why do I have to worry what "kind" of musicians play and record my music as long as I properly pay them the agreed-on rate for playing/recording my music (assumed I'm the composer of the music I order them to play)?
As long as I pay them the correct amount of money and they play and record the music in the intended way, I shouldn't have to mess with those musicians being members of a labour union, a PRO, a church or whatever.
Am I wrong?


----------



## Desire Inspires

HiEnergy said:


> Why do I have to worry what "kind" of musicians play and record my music as long as I properly pay them the agreed-on rate for playing/recording my music (assumed I'm the composer of the music I order them to play)?
> As long as I pay them the correct amount of money and they play and record the music in the intended way, I shouldn't have to mess with those musicians being members of a labour union, a PRO, a church or whatever.
> Am I wrong?



No you are not wrong.


----------



## Daryl

HiEnergy said:


> Why do I have to worry what "kind" of musicians play and record my music as long as I properly pay them the agreed-on rate for playing/recording my music (assumed I'm the composer of the music I order them to play)?
> As long as I pay them the correct amount of money and they play and record the music in the intended way, I shouldn't have to mess with those musicians being members of a labour union, a PRO, a church or whatever.
> Am I wrong?


It all depends under what agreement you are paying. For example, if you are doing a movie which qualifies for the "low movie" rate, you pay £50 per hour. If it doesn't qualify, you pay £100. if it is Classical recording, it's one fee. If it's a library, it's another. It's all about usage, and the rates are agreed by the Union, whether or not the players are members. You don't have to pay these rates and abide by the usages, but if you want to use Union agreements, you do. If you choose not to use Union agreements, you can do what you like, but you won't be getting the usual session players on your session, or indeed even any Union members. I hope that clarifies things for you.


----------



## Daryl

Matt Riley said:


> Seems like a big deterrent to using union musicians to me. Can't they sign a WFH like everyone else?


Yes, it's £1000 per hour per player. Let me send you the contract immediately....!


----------



## thereus

We create rules to serve us and gradually they enslave us.


----------



## HiEnergy

If those musicians are catholic... do I have to pay an extra fee to the Catholic Church? 
(nonsense, just for depicting how insane this is...)


----------



## Scoremixer

HiEnergy said:


> Why do I have to worry what "kind" of musicians play and record my music as long as I properly pay them the agreed-on rate for playing/recording my music (assumed I'm the composer of the music I order them to play)?
> As long as I pay them the correct amount of money and they play and record the music in the intended way, I shouldn't have to mess with those musicians being members of a labour union, a PRO, a church or whatever.
> Am I wrong?



Absolutely, and that's how it normally works- you approach an orchestra fixer, lay out the parameters of your project, and they take care of the rest, from booking the players to ensuring the session proceeds under the correct contract. 

FWIW, these are the contractors we deal with on a daily basis in London:

Isobel Griffiths http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0341690/
Hilary Skewes http://www.hilaryskewes.com/
COOL http://chamberorchestraoflondon.com/
London Metropolitan Orchestra http://www.lmo.co.uk/
English Session Orchestra https://www.facebook.com/EnglishSessionOrchestra


----------



## Scoremixer

Matt Riley said:


> Seems like a big deterrent to using union musicians to me. Can't they sign a WFH like everyone else?



Supply and demand. The experienced professional players belong to the Union, and play under Union contracts, because they get treated better, paid better and are busy. You're free to not hire them, but this thread would suggest cutting corners and being unaware of the provenance of the players makes for unsatisfactory experiences.


----------



## JJP

Matt Riley said:


> Seems like a big deterrent to using union musicians to me. Can't they sign a WFH like everyone else?



As Scoremixer said, they could, but they formed a union to collectively negotiate better terms. In the USA that's how they negotiate for things like workplace conditions and safety, pay rates, healthcare, and pension. It's important to note that these rules aren't imposed by the union. They are agreements which both the union and the producers create together. (Production companies have their own trade groups which allow them to negotiate collectively as well.)

The union agreements also enable the musicians to demand the right to know what the project is for which they are being hired so that they aren't exploited. That way a high-budget blockbuster movie can't hire them and say, "We are just a little indie passion project that no one is going to see. Please help us by cutting your rates so we can get this done," and then laughing all the way to the bank because the swindled the musicians by withholding information.

With unions in the USA, Residual payments usually have a "pay as you go" structure. If the music is re-used in another medium or generates money in some secondary market, it triggers a new payment.

The employers negotiated this with the musicians so they don't have to pay a huge buyout fee upfront before they are certain how or if the project will be profitable. The musicains negotiated this structure so that they don't have to try to blindly guess appropriate fee with no nformation. Through a residual structure, if the project makes money everybody who contributed to making it can benefit without a lot of guesswork and fear of someone feeling ripped off and going to court.


----------



## bryla

And BTW the 99dollarorchestra website says on their front page:
All recordings delivered can be used for commercial purposes at no additional cost.


----------



## prodigalson

HiEnergy said:


> Why do I have to worry what "kind" of musicians play and record my music as long as I properly pay them the agreed-on rate for playing/recording my music (assumed I'm the composer of the music I order them to play)?
> As long as I pay them the correct amount of money and they play and record the music in the intended way, I shouldn't have to mess with those musicians being members of a labour union, a PRO, a church or whatever.
> Am I wrong?



Because musicians are human beings who are entitled to fair wages and good working conditions and while you might be well-meaning not every production company and producer is. Musicians have to live and work in an industry that is notorious for exploitation and greed and it has been shown to be in their best interests (and also in many ways in the best interests of the product) for musicians to be unionized, at least in the LA, NY and London entertainment industries


----------



## Mihkel Zilmer

The unions exist to protect the musicians. They make sure that the pay and working conditions are fair, offer legal help, sort out insurance, pension etc.

As a composer you should be able to relate to this.

When was the last time you were asked to put in insane hours for not nearly enough pay?
And how much leverage did you have, as an individual, in those negotiations?


----------



## prodigalson

In addition, you can also extrapolate that onto any other industry. You might as well say "If I pay the auto worker the agreed upon hourly rate to build my cars, then why should I have to mess with them being in an autoworker union or church or whatever?"

etc etc


----------



## NoamL

thereus said:


> Are we music makers or lawyers? What a tangled web of beaurocratic restrictions!





Matt Riley said:


> Seems like a big deterrent to using union musicians to me. Can't they sign a WFH like everyone else?



Because they’re good enough and indispensable enough to be able to set their terms.

All the DAW jockeys and french horn football composers in here used to working flat rate, it’s because you’re far, far less indispensable to the process than a pro session player. No offense. I’ve worked those flat rate gigs too and written plenty of footballs... musicians bring music to life. Without them all our work has little value.

Andre kinda sounded like he had the LA venues and dates lined up but not the orchestra, notice he said UK “will be” union vs LA “we intend” to do union. IMO you should have the orch lined up and know the exact package details before advertising. Are you partnering with a music contractor in LA or is this all outside??

Considering all the challenges of doing remote sessions (which you still haven’t conquered really, for example taking a composers instructions and applying them in a session, not to mention not leaving them in the dark for a week about whether their piece was even recorded)I think these LA sessions might be running before walking... 

And, if you charge people more, their expectations will be even more professional.


----------



## tpb189

I participated in the initial $99 orchestra in June of 2015, That seemed to go well with video and recording files sent. However since then the communication has been appaling and I would strongly advise anyone to steer clear of this company. In July of 2016 I submitted some music after about 20 emails backwards and forth they sent a recording with a 30 piece orchestra ( I paid for the 40 piece orchestra) and no video recording (also paid for). The quality was awful and the room dry acoustically. In December 2016 I purchased a session for the "50 piece orchestra" wrote some music sent it in January as instructed then nothing happened. Again another 50 emails and no response. I also have have purchased a 30 piece session for January 2018 but again no communication. So far I am $600 USD out of pocket. *It's not good enough and my lawyer will be after them. Complaints have been previously lodged with Indiegogo.

-50 piece recording score sent January 2017 -nothing received
-30 piece recording scheduled Jan 2018 - no communication thus far.*

Please don't support this company they are dishonest and don't communicate with their backers!!

Maybe Andre or someone would like to explain the situation.


----------



## andremiranda2

tpb189 said:


> I participated in the initial $99 orchestra in June of 2015, That seemed to go well with video and recording files sent. However since then the communication has been appaling and I would strongly advise anyone to steer clear of this company. In July of 2016 I submitted some music after about 20 emails backwards and forth they sent a recording with a 30 piece orchestra ( I paid for the 40 piece orchestra) and no video recording (also paid for). The quality was awful and the room dry acoustically. In December 2016 I purchased a session for the "50 piece orchestra" wrote some music sent it in January as instructed then nothing happened. Again another 50 emails and no response. I also have have purchased a 30 piece session for January 2018 but again no communication. So far I am $600 USD out of pocket. *It's not good enough and my lawyer will be after them. Complaints have been previously lodged with Indiegogo.
> 
> -50 piece recording score sent January 2017 -nothing received
> -30 piece recording scheduled Jan 2018 - no communication thus far.*
> 
> Please don't support this company they are dishonest and don't communicate with their backers!!
> 
> Maybe Andre or someone would like to explain the situation.



Hi trb189, I'm not sure what went wrong there in January and that probably and rightfully so upset you about not having received a response. In this situation we would like to refund you for the video and delayed recording that you booked in January 2017. We will record it anyway free of charge, so you can have your music files. I'm sorry about this situation and we will make it right and compensate you. 

Also very importantly, we've added our phone number to our contacts which prevents this kind of situation that is very unfortunate for you and for us as well. This makes communicating with us easy and instant. You can give us a call and go over your scores with us and manage your session on the phone, which is a much faster and closer way to interact and provide you the communication and service you deserve.

To take care of this costumer service glitch, please e-mail us today or tomorrow at [email protected] and I will personally attend to you right away.


----------



## tpb189

andremiranda2 said:


> Hi trb189, I'm not sure what went wrong there in January and that probably and rightfully so upset you about not having received a response. In this situation we would like to refund you for the video and delayed recording that you booked in January 2017. We will record it anyway free of charge, so you can have your music files. I'm sorry about this situation and we will make it right and compensate you.
> 
> Also very importantly, we've added our phone number to our contacts which prevents this kind of situation that is very unfortunate for you and for us as well. This makes communicating with us easy and instant. You can give us a call and go over your scores with us and manage your session on the phone, which is a much faster and closer way to interact and provide you the communication and service you deserve.
> 
> To take care of this costumer service glitch, please e-mail us today or tomorrow at [email protected] and I will personally attend to you right away.



Thanks for the response Andre. I have emailed you the files.


----------



## tpb189

Andre I have sent files as you request. For the sake of others on this message board who are also lacking communication from the $99 orchestra I'll keep this thread alive by updating on progress (as you state recording sessions are scheduled for end of January).


----------



## Matt Riley

I should also keep this thread alive to say that I still haven't received my refund that I was promised a few months ago...


----------



## JJP

As of Jan 5, 2018 (Los Angeles time) the 99 Dollar Orchestra homepage advertises "Los Angeles - London - Lisbon" sessions with a countdown showing that booking ends in 4 days. Clicking on the "Book Now" link for the Los Angeles "Hollywood" sessions (priced in Euros) shows the LA sessions as "not available".

There is no indication as to whether the LA sessions are fully booked or postponed/cancelled. There is also no information about the quality and recommended usage of the "Hollywood" tier like there is for the "Basic," "Premium," and "Epic" tiers.


----------



## bryla

New feature: 

CUSTOMER SUPPORT

For the first time, you are able to give us a call or send us an e-mail to manage your session and get updates from our dedicated support team member.


----------



## YuHirà

I greatly hesitated before posting, because usually, I'm not resentful at all and I have to confess André sounds very nice.

But I have to say that my experience with the Abbey Road session on Monday was one of the biggest disappointments in my life.

I watched the livestream during 4 hours. The music was beautifully played. Everything seemed fine so far. When I learnt that I was the last composer on the list, I got a bad feeling, since I know very well how the Union rules work. Unfortunately I was right. At 8:58 (GMT), the musicians left the studio 2 and I was the only one not to have been recorded... I was speechless, staring at the orchestra leaving the room (except the violins).

You can easily imagine what I felt at this very moment. Especially since two of my friend were there, in the cabin. I was speaking to them by Telegram. They were recorded. I was not.

I have been in the business for 15 years, I record 5-10 times a year, with orchestras or soloists. It's the first time it happens to me. And I'm still trying to figure how it can happen.

Of course, I don't blame the company for the Union rules. But I blame the company not to anticipate these sort of things and to have placed me last on the list: I booked my session on November, while my colleagues booked their session 1 or 2 months later. It seems very unfair to me.

André apologized twice by mail and promised me to delay the recording with extra time. He offered me to talk on the telephone on Wednesday. I gave him my phone number.

I didn't receive any call. And he does not answer my mails ever since.

I don't know when my piece will be recorded. Probably in January 2019, which seems pretty late. Maybe my piece will never be recorded again, it's more likely. I don't know. Everything's possible after all.

One of my other friends who also bought it a session e-mailed him several times for an other session which was to take place on Monday at Abbey Road. I know for sure that this session (winds + strings) never took place. But in spite of his efforts, he didn't get any news about it. In the meanwhile, I know for sure that he answers very quickly to one of my other friends who was lucky enough to be recorded on Monday.

I'm really concerned. It's not a question of money, I can afford it. It's a matter of trust. And since it's Abbey Road, it's more disappointing. I have sometimes the feeling to have made a fool of myself to have believed in this adventure.

Naturally, I'm thinking about involving a lawyer. Anyone can make mistakes. I can forgive a lot of things. Really. But I can not forgive a party when this party ignores his clients and doesn't do anything to make things right again and to reassure the offended one after a breach of contract.

However, in the same time, I'm wondering if I'm not going to abandon the fight, because it's not worth wasted effort. But I'm really upset.

Of course, I don't let myself be brought down by this situation. I will book a session at Abbey Road later, it's just a matter of time, it's not so expansive after all. But I'm sure I will call a different contractor for it.

And I urge you to do the same.

*NB*: I promise that I will delete this message (or ask a moderator to do so) if the situation is going better, since I support the right to be forgotten.


----------



## Daryl

YuHirà said:


> I got a bad feeling, since I know very well how the Union rules work.



It has nothing to do with Unions. It has to do with the musicians being paid by the hour. I would be more concerned for the people who did get their music recorded, because if they didn't read the fine print, they might find that they can't use the recording for their intended purpose.


----------



## bryla

YuHirà said:


> I greatly hesitated before posting, because usually, I'm not resentful at all and I have to confess André sounds very nice.
> 
> But I have to say that my experience with the Abbey Road session on Monday was one of the biggest disappointments in my life.
> 
> I watched the livestream during 4 hours. The music was beautifully played. Everything seemed fine so far. When I learnt that I was the last composer on the list, I got a bad feeling, since I know very well how the Union rules work. Unfortunately I was right. At 8:58 (GMT), the musicians left the studio 2 and I was the only one not to have been recorded... I was speechless, staring at the orchestra leaving the room (except the violins).
> 
> You can easily imagine what I felt at this very moment. Especially since two of my friend were there, in the cabin. I was speaking to them by Telegram. They were recorded. I was not.
> 
> I have been in the business for 15 years, I record 5-10 times a year, with orchestras or soloists. It's the first time it happens to me. And I'm still trying to figure how it can happen.
> 
> Of course, I don't blame the company for the Union rules. But I blame the company not to anticipate these sort of things and to have placed me last on the list: I booked my session on November, while my colleagues booked their session 1 or 2 months later. It seems very unfair to me.
> 
> André apologized twice by mail and promised me to delay the recording with extra time. He offered me to talk on the telephone on Wednesday. I gave him my phone number.
> 
> I didn't receive any call. And he does not answer my mails ever since.
> 
> I don't know when my piece will be recorded. Probably in January 2019, which seems pretty late. Maybe my piece will never be recorded again, it's more likely. I don't know. Everything's possible after all.
> 
> One of my other friends who also bought it a session e-mailed him several times for an other session which was to take place on Monday at Abbey Road. I know for sure that this session (winds + strings) never took place. But in spite of his efforts, he didn't get any news about it. In the meanwhile, I know for sure that he answers very quickly to one of my other friends who was lucky enough to be recorded on Monday.
> 
> I'm really concerned. It's not a question of money, I can afford it. It's a matter of trust. And since it's Abbey Road, it's more disappointing. I have sometimes the feeling to have made a fool of myself to have believed in this adventure.
> 
> Naturally, I'm thinking about involving a lawyer. Anyone can make mistakes. I can forgive a lot of things. Really. But I can not forgive a party when this party ghosts his clients and doesn't do anything to make things right again and to reassure the offended one after a breach of contract.
> 
> However, in the same time, I'm wondering if I'm not going to abandon the fight, because it's not worth wasted effort. But I'm really upset.
> 
> Of course, I don't let myself be brought down by this situation. I will book a session at Abbey Road later, it's just a matter of time, it's not so expansive after all. But I'm sure I will call a different contractor for it.
> 
> And I urge you to do the same.
> 
> *NB*: I promise that I will delete this message (or ask a moderator to do so) if the situation is going better, since I support the right to oblivion.


Thanks for sharing, YuHirá, but I can't say that I'm surprised to hear. This time though the explanations of not replying don't fit, because they hired a person to do so. And the response that 'maybe we need a more professional product' doesn't seem apt.


----------



## YuHirà

> It has nothing to do with Unions.



I didn't mention it but there was an incident regarding the Union rules at the very beginning which delayed the session. The musicians didn't play during a moment which lasted about 15-20 minutes (I don't know exactly, I was not online, it's a friend who told me). Initally, the session was planned to end at 9 (if I have understood correctly).

My friends don't plan to use the recordings otherwise than for demo purpose. As I planned to do. We didn't want to take any risk 

But as I said, it's not why I blame the company. I blame them because I paid for a service I didn't have, because I'm still waiting a new date and because one of my friend who paid an other session is completely ignored.


----------



## YuHirà

> Thanks for sharing, YuHirá, but I can't say that I'm surprised to hear



To be honest, I'm not surprised too :-D I was sincerely prepared for this (I previously read the topic :-D ).

In fact, I thought that the session would never take place and I was ready to lose my money :-D I composed the piece within 2 days just in case... I didn't hope anything.

But I changed my mind when I heard the music on the stream... I was suddenly hopeful, and it's maybe why I live this situation so badly. I'm the only one not to have been recorded, while I was among the first composers to book the session...


----------



## tpb189

No don't delete it! It's all promises and talk if you refer to Andre's reply about my situation (24 Dec) nothing has changed I submitted the sets of files both to their email and as instructed on their website but have no communication since. They sent me an email stating recording would be 27 Jan but no link, no time.. no nothing. And every email since has gone unanswered. IMO their whole operation is more than dishonest it's deliberately taking peoples money holding onto it for (in my case) since Nov 2016 . He promised a refund and recording but nothing has happened.

Why even list the sessions if you can't deliver. Please anyone do yourself a favour and avoid their business. You'll waste time money and become frustrated in the process which is still unresolved... If any normal business behaved in this way they would be in front of a judge and shut down.




YuHirà said:


> I greatly hesitated before posting, because usually, I'm not resentful at all and I have to confess André sounds very nice.
> 
> But I have to say that my experience with the Abbey Road session on Monday was one of the biggest disappointments in my life.
> 
> I watched the livestream during 4 hours. The music was beautifully played. Everything seemed fine so far. When I learnt that I was the last composer on the list, I got a bad feeling, since I know very well how the Union rules work. Unfortunately I was right. At 8:58 (GMT), the musicians left the studio 2 and I was the only one not to have been recorded... I was speechless, staring at the orchestra leaving the room (except the violins).
> 
> You can easily imagine what I felt at this very moment. Especially since two of my friend were there, in the cabin. I was speaking to them by Telegram. They were recorded. I was not.
> 
> I have been in the business for 15 years, I record 5-10 times a year, with orchestras or soloists. It's the first time it happens to me. And I'm still trying to figure how it can happen.
> 
> Of course, I don't blame the company for the Union rules. But I blame the company not to anticipate these sort of things and to have placed me last on the list: I booked my session on November, while my colleagues booked their session 1 or 2 months later. It seems very unfair to me.
> 
> André apologized twice by mail and promised me to delay the recording with extra time. He offered me to talk on the telephone on Wednesday. I gave him my phone number.
> 
> I didn't receive any call. And he does not answer my mails ever since.
> 
> I don't know when my piece will be recorded. Probably in January 2019, which seems pretty late. Maybe my piece will never be recorded again, it's more likely. I don't know. Everything's possible after all.
> 
> One of my other friends who also bought it a session e-mailed him several times for an other session which was to take place on Monday at Abbey Road. I know for sure that this session (winds + strings) never took place. But in spite of his efforts, he didn't get any news about it. In the meanwhile, I know for sure that he answers very quickly to one of my other friends who was lucky enough to be recorded on Monday.
> 
> I'm really concerned. It's not a question of money, I can afford it. It's a matter of trust. And since it's Abbey Road, it's more disappointing. I have sometimes the feeling to have made a fool of myself to have believed in this adventure.
> 
> Naturally, I'm thinking about involving a lawyer. Anyone can make mistakes. I can forgive a lot of things. Really. But I can not forgive a party when this party ignores his clients and doesn't do anything to make things right again and to reassure the offended one after a breach of contract.
> 
> However, in the same time, I'm wondering if I'm not going to abandon the fight, because it's not worth wasted effort. But I'm really upset.
> 
> Of course, I don't let myself be brought down by this situation. I will book a session at Abbey Road later, it's just a matter of time, it's not so expansive after all. But I'm sure I will call a different contractor for it.
> 
> And I urge you to do the same.
> 
> *NB*: I promise that I will delete this message (or ask a moderator to do so) if the situation is going better, since I support the right to be forgotten.


----------



## Desire Inspires

99 dollar orchestra is like 99 cent steak.

Pay fair prices for what you need.


----------



## YuHirà

Desire Inspires said:


> 99 dollar orchestra is like 99 cent steak.
> 
> Pay fair prices for what you need.



Surprisingly, we paid the fair price for the Premium sessions 

I checked the prices. They match.

I agree that we can't except quality with the Lisbon Orchestra (99 dollars / euros for a 7 minute session with a 30-piece orchestra... it's really low-cost, far more than in Eastern Europe). Of course, we could reasonably expect a greater quality with Premium sessions at Abbey Road since the prices are fair. But if you only book one 7 minute session, it may be tricky: it's partly composer's responsability. I don't think we can blame entirely the company for this reason.

But as far as I'm concerned, I didn't raise the issue because of the quality of the recording but because the contract was not fullfilled at all.

I didn't have the steak


----------



## Desire Inspires

YuHirà said:


> Surprisingly, we paid the fair price for the Premium sessions
> 
> I checked the prices. They match.
> 
> I agree that we can't except quality with the Lisbon Orchestra (99 dollars / euros for a 7 minute session with a 30-piece orchestra... it's really low-cost, far more than in Eastern Europe). Of course, we could reasonably except a greater quality with Premium sessions at Abbey Road since the prices are fair. But if you only book one 7 minute session, it may be tricky: it's partly composer's responsability. I don't think we can blame entirely the company for this reason.
> 
> But as far as I'm concerned, I didn't raise the issue because of the quality of the recording but because the contract was not fullfilled at all.
> 
> I didn't have the steak



If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

I don't give the company any sympathy or a pass. They are reprehensible as far as I am concerned.

Composers should not expect any refund or any delivery of sessions at his point. It is a total loss. Suing will only put people further behind.

I hope composers just call it a day and move on. Working with samples or legitimate companies is the way to go in the future.


----------



## YuHirà

> If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.



You're right... but not in this case  It's more complicated than it seems to be.


----------



## Desire Inspires

YuHirà said:


> You're right... but not in this case  It's more complicated than it seems to be.



Excellent.


----------



## JJP

YuHirà said:


> I agree that we can't except quality with the Lisbon Orchestra (99 dollars / euros for a 7 minute session with a 30-piece orchestra... it's really low-cost, far more than in Eastern Europe). Of course, we could reasonably except a greater quality with Premium sessions at Abbey Road since the prices are fair. But if you only book one 7 minute session, it may be tricky: it's partly composer's responsability. I don't think we can blame entirely the company for this reason.



You can blame the company. This is not your fault in any way. They claimed they could provide something for a specific price. They took your money and did not provide the service they promised. They are responsible for not delivering what you paid for. It's up to them to refund your money or make it right.

Do NOT blame yourself. This company has shown a pattern of behavior that is inexcusable. It frustrates those of us who provide this service properly because it can reflect poorly on the musicians, the fixers/contractors, and everyone else in our industry who takes pride in their work.


----------



## tpb189

Update 11/02/18: No communication no refund no nothing... when I asked why they didn't record my piece they states they ran out of time. wtf? 

Dishonest just like an ebay "cash and run". I've lost about 600 USD from them.


----------



## Paul Grymaud

Clearly...


----------



## BillB

Sad to hear that so many of you have had problems with this company (can empathize). Yet, I can’t believe André and company would have gone through the trouble of getting this venture launched only to see it fail, hear his team regularly excoriated. In my case it was suggested that I do a core session with the London players (for best quality), sweetening this with the orchestra in Lisbon. Ironically, any questions I had (pre-billing) were dealt with within 24 hours. Once the projected date had passed I was, like so many of you, completely ignored. Despite, apparent, good intentions, I think $99 Orch simply overpromises and underdelivers. Too bad too because I know people who actually want to give them their business but only after first knowing my result. Since it’s not my nature to disparage a person or a business I choose to stay mum, hoping the subject doesn’t again come up.

Hope André and his team eventually comes through for all of you (us).


----------



## Justin S

Just wanted to report that I had a similar experience with 99Orchestra. Booked a session for January 2017. Turned out the piece was never recorded. Was promised several re-bookings, never materialized, finally requested a refund, no response. Seems as if the website is down now, and I'm another customer out $600 USD. For posterity's sake I figured I would post my story here.


----------



## N.Caffrey

I wasted $160 with them. When will they stop getting money from people without delivering? Also, with the credibility from the 99$ orchestra, I wouldn't trust them with any other "premium" projects.


----------



## dcoscina

Geez, I'm sorry for you guys that had this happen to you. I was considering this route for getting one of my shorter pieces recorded but I've decided not to now. What a predatory world we live in huh?


----------



## germancomponist

Only a simultan recorded fart noise from all the musicians in an orchestra will cost you more than 99 Dollars .... .


----------



## JJP

dcoscina said:


> What a predatory world we live in huh?



I don't think this is predatory. I think it's simple incompetence.

The company has shown on multiple occasions that they don't know how to properly handle projects like this, and they appear to not understand why things cost what they do.

This is what can happen when people have more ambition than skills. That's why other industries where people can be hurt like medicine and construction have licenses and inspectors.


----------



## YuHirà

BillB said:


> Hope André and his team eventually comes through for all of you (us).



As far as I'm concerned, I don't hope anymore  My friend and I sent several messages these last weeks but didn't receive any answer.

I usually try not to have prejudices about people but in this case, I'm pretty sure that we were victims of a fraud. An incompetent person still answers and tries to make things right. He does not vanish when things go wrong...

We could bring together a class action, by the way. I read that the Law of Portugal provides a very interesting type of class action, the "acção popular", with an opting out system: by default, each client of the company is considered as a plaintiff.

The only problem is that I didn't manage to find any company address, either on the website or the WHOIS :-D In retrospect, I realise that this fact was solely a reason not to contract with them :-D


----------



## Matt Riley

YuHirà said:


> As far as I'm concerned, I don't hope anymore  My friend and I sent several messages these last weeks but didn't receive any answer.
> 
> I usually try not to have prejudices about people but in this case, I'm pretty sure that we were victims of a fraud. An incompetent person still answers and tries to make things right. He does not vanish when things go wrong...
> 
> We could bring together a class action, by the way. I read that the Law of Portugal provides a very interesting type of class action, the "acção popula", with an opting out system: by default, every client of the company is considered as a plaintiff.
> 
> The only problem is that I didn't manage to find any company address, either on the website or the WHOIS :-D In retrospect, I realise that this fact was solely a reason not to contract with them :-D


We have his Paypal info though. It includes his phone number and email address. They probably have more info too.


----------



## NoamL

JJP said:


> I don't think this is predatory. I think it's simple incompetence.



Yeah JJ I have a sneaking suspicion about all of these "My piece wasn't even recorded on the announced day" posts. How can that even happen? Well I can think of one way... if they have a backlog of un-recorded pieces from previous sessions, or makeup sessions promised to unsatisfied customers. But the core issues with the idea persist, which means they can't get through it all and more people fall off the back end of the schedule. To be told "Don't worry we'll do you at the next set of sessions," etc


----------



## BillB

NoamL said:


> Yeah JJ I have a sneaking suspicion about all of these "My piece wasn't even recorded on the announced day" posts. How can that even happen? Well I can think of one way... if they have a backlog of un-recorded pieces from previous sessions, or makeup sessions promised to unsatisfied customers. But the core issues with the idea persist, which means they can't get through it all and more people fall off the back end of the schedule. To be told "Don't worry we'll do you at the next set of sessions," etc



I had read in earlier posts where André offered to re-record earlier pieces for free (should have seen that red flag), which indeed could have created quite the backlog of pieces. I was told in early January that sessions were ‘filling up fast’ and that I needed to get my sessions booked sooner than later.

I suggest that if $99 Orchestra is to survive they will need to offer a no questions asked, money back guarantee offer if one’s project isn’t recorded within, say, two session periods. I have a feeling that much of the money people spent (for me, €1000 to record three minutes of simple to moderately challenging music) is going, not into the staff’s pockets, but rather for things such as doubling fees, BMU penalties, music prep, overtime, etc., in effect creating this vicious cycle where ‘Peter is robbed to pay Paul.’ The other thing is that they need to be consistent when stating the amount of music that is possible to record within a certain time frame, not “changing the rules” as you begin to click ‘pay now.’

$99 Orchestra is a great concept—the idea that one can book musicians without having to go through the headache of trying to coordinate bookings of both musicians AND studio is, in a word, wonderful. Just hope it gets it’s damn act together (start by calling it the €99 Orchestra as it’s not actually $99).


----------



## BillB

Matt Riley said:


> We have his Paypal info though. It includes his phone number and email address. They probably have more info too.


[/QUOTE]

Matt- Do you know anyone who has tried to get his/her money back via Pay Pal? From what I understand you have 180 days to lodge a complaint. Also, what if $99 Orchestra tries one of its go-to come backs: ‘piece isn’t well orchestrated,’ ‘more time needed to be booked,’ etc. Would Pay Pal then consider the complaint action closed? In other words does $99 Orch, as PP seller, “hold all of the cards?”


----------



## JJP

BillB said:


> the idea that one can book musicians without having to go through the headache of trying to coordinate bookings of both musicians AND studio is, in a word, wonderful.



There are plenty of people who do this. They charge a reasonable, i.e. higher, fee because that's what it takes to do the job properly and ensure that you get the results you expect.


----------



## Matt Riley

BillB said:


> Matt- Do you know anyone who has tried to get his/her money back via Pay Pal? From what I understand you have 180 days to lodge a complaint. Also, what if $99 Orchestra tries one of its go-to come backs: ‘piece isn’t well orchestrated,’ ‘more time needed to be booked,’ etc. Would Pay Pal then consider the complaint action closed? In other words does $99 Orch, as PP seller, “hold all of the cards?”



I was actually able to get my money back from Andre. It was a small amount because I was testing the waters. I created a dispute via Paypal but they said I would have to work it out with the seller because of the more than 180 days had passed. So I sent email after email to Andre as described earlier in this thread and he finally refunded my money in January. Again, it was a small amount so I don't know if he would have given me a refund if the amount was higher like some you.


----------



## YuHirà

Hello everyone!

To my great surprise, I finally received this morning a mail from my friend with a link to the PT session of my piece! I was surprised... since I didn't expect it anymore 

The result is quite acceptable and workable. The only issue is that I'm not sure that it was recorded at Abbey Road as agreed. I'm going to submit my PT to a friend in order to check that.


----------



## BillB

YuHirà said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> To my great surprise, I finally received this morning a mail from my friend with a link to the PT session of my piece! I was surprised... since I didn't expect it anymore
> 
> The result is quite acceptable and workable. The only issue is that I'm not sure that it was recorded at Abbey Road as agreed. I'm going to submit my PT to a friend in order to check that.



Hi. Yes, I received my PT session today as well and am also quite pleased as the reading by André and the London players was excellent. I know the January session was at AR2 but assumed they went back to Metropolis for the March date. Still waiting for my Epic Orch and London brass audio, but, really, happy I got anything (even if the result had been substandard, which this reading certainly was not).

My feeling from the get-go was that André and team were overwhelmed from having to re-record 2017 projects that we might have to wait until another session date was confirmed to have our music recorded. Still, they need to work on improving customer inquiries/concerns (which could only help their business, curtail potential negative word-of-mouth). I recommend they offer some kind of additional discount if your piece is not recorded on the date promised (even 10% would satisfy most people).

Anyway, happy you got your tracks, YuHirà!


----------



## YuHirà

Admittedly, I'm happy to have something to hear (and I'm very happy for you too :-D ), but André still broke our contract :-( I signed and paid for a session in January, at Abbey Road and not at Metropolis. I never would have bought a session if it was planned to take place somewhere else :-(


----------



## tpb189

Glad that you are happy with your tracks but it is still not good enough, as mentioned I paid $600 USD in November 2016... no refund nothing not even an email. Lots of undelivered promises. What's so difficult about communicating?
If it's indeed going to be recorded at the "next session" when is that..?


----------



## andremiranda2

Hey guys, I believe we have solved the issues presented in this thread. We solved them quite a long time ago to from the date I'm writing this post. I'm running through forums to check if there's anything that slipped. One of the people here couldn't be recorded at Abbey Road at the original booked date.It really sucked. We apologize for that.

The recordings are great and if you if you had a bad experience with the basic 99 Orchestra (€99 deal) you should try the London Sessions. Any repeat customer on this forum who wishes to try the London Sessions please ask [email protected] to get a recording session booked, we will be giving you a 40% discount (meaning we will subsidize your session in order to give you the great experience that you deserve and that needs to be posted on this forum).


----------



## andremiranda2

tpb189 said:


> Glad that you are happy with your tracks but it is still not good enough, as mentioned I paid $600 USD in November 2016... no refund nothing not even an email. Lots of undelivered promises. What's so difficult about communicating?
> If it's indeed going to be recorded at the "next session" when is that..?



Hi Tpb189. We're not able to identify if we solved your issue or not because we can't identify the author of this post, but please let us know at [email protected].


----------



## andremiranda2

YuHirà said:


> Admittedly, I'm happy to have something to hear (and I'm very happy for you too :-D ), but André still broke our contract :-( I signed and paid for a session in January, at Abbey Road and not at Metropolis. I never would have bought a session if it was planned to take place somewhere else :-(


Hi Yura, unfortunately, in order to record your session ASAP we had to record it in another studio, which is also great. We would have to wait longer to go back to Abbey Road Studios. If we can do anything to compensate you please let us know.


----------



## andremiranda2

Dear forum,

I just want to post tis publicly here. I've read through a lot of comments here. Starting a business is hard, specially if the start is done by one person. That's not your fault. It's also not how our company is going to grow obviously. We now have a staff of 5 (since August 2018) and we're able to handle operations at the rate we should now.

Unfortunately, in the process the company (and me) screwed up some orders. We screwed up around 5% of the time. That's a small percentage but it's enough for this thread to have purpose.

We're now in the process of collecting anyone that we may have left behind in terms of quality or delivery from our initial runs in order to solve any pending issues. We're also going to invite people that had a bad experience to record their pieces with us again for a big discount or paying after the recording session only.

Whoever got bad recording from a Basic session from us just contact [email protected] and we will be happy to evaluate the situation and propose a fix.

London recording sessions have been great and got a lot of compliments for them, but if anyone got a bad one I would be interested in learning as well.

Please contact us at [email protected]


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Okay peeps, please stop reporting this thread to the mods - we already have about 10 reports and get the idea.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Meanwhile, please stop piling on. The points have been made.

I don't want to move this thread to the Drama Zone.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

11 reports now

Aaaargh!


----------



## bryla




----------



## YuHirà

Hello everyboy! 

Just for your information, be careful if you are approached by a company named Musiversal. It's obviously a "fork" of the 99 dollar orchestra


----------



## N.Caffrey

YuHirà said:


> Hello everyboy!
> 
> Just for your information, be careful if you are approached by a company named Musiversal. It's obviously a "fork" of the 99 dollar orchestra



Same thought I had.


----------



## Justin S

Hi Everyone - I just wanted to note in the spirit of fairness that after multiple complaints via email and then via public posting I was eventually refunded in the fall for my missed 2017 session.


----------



## andremiranda2

No, Musiversal is not a fork of the $99 Orchestra. The $99 Orchestra doesn't exist anymore. I created it so I have the authority to say it. Musiversal took it down and built a company with a team ($99 Orchestra was one guy trying to do a team's job and that's not possible).

Musiversal has recordings in London with union musicians, at abbey road and other studios, it has a team of 5 people working now, it's growing and etc etc etc... and there are a lot of people using it otherwise it wouldn't be in business...

Your comments and feedback is correct about your experience with the $99 Orchestra in the past. But is completely incorrect about Musiversal (I don't want to be rude, just explaining).

If you were unhappy with the results from the $99 Orchestra kickstarter project it's time that topic is closed. I'll ask the team at Musiversal to reach out to everyone on this thread that was not happy with their experience with the $99 Orchestra to give you a free session with Musiversal so you can share your experience again.

It's fair that you have some fun with your music now and it would cool to see you guys finally sharing your recorded music proudly and using it to advance your career.

Please respond to this thread so we can get your sessions going and seeing your music posted here!


----------



## Mike Marino

andremiranda2 said:


> Please respond to this thread so we can get your sessions going and seeing your music posted here!


Thanks for these clarifications, Andre. My comments are on page 2 of this thread. Lets talk!


----------

