# Dorian's Reflection - Orchestral Metal



## RiffWraith (Aug 12, 2009)

This is wierd. It's like you have two different styles of music going on at once, which could be cool, but in this case doesn't work. It's like the piece is suffering from an identity crisis; it doesn't know where it wants to be, or where it wants to go. The bass line in the very beginnng does not work at all in this type of music; it belongs in a funk/reggea type piece. Those sorta middle-eastern string bends starting at about 1:46 over the kick drum/hat thing are very odd. I think the "rock" elements there really do that part in. Then when it kicks in with the drum beat and heavy guitars, it almost wants to be metal, but it's not. It is extremely weak, and sounds like a watered down version of "heavy metal elevator music" written by someone who doesn't know how to write a metal tune. I think the orchestral elements are cool, (save for those bends) and this might work as an orchestral-only piece, but the metal-ness really makes this difficult to listen to, at best.

Cheers.


----------



## rayinstirling (Aug 13, 2009)

Theo,

It works for me! 
The only comment I would have other than that is, the closed sound of the bass and guitars. I feel you've dampened them too much. Maybe it's just my monitors?

Ray


----------



## lux (Aug 13, 2009)

it works here too

I quite like the overall feel of this piece, its kinda Elfman meets Vinnie Moore meets disco, a very cool and funny (in a good sense) melting pot that shows a nice fantasy. I liked much the harmonic changes in the middle.

Which guitar did u use? It sounds a bit uhm at times but i know i'm somehow picky.

in general Its fun stuff, thanks for sharing it

luca


----------



## TheoKrueger (Aug 13, 2009)

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to listen.

*Hi Riff Wraith*, I agree that this piece may be lacking in many aspects, especially structure and production.



> It's like the piece is suffering from an identity crisis; it doesn't know where it wants to be, or where it wants to go.


I think you just scetched my psychological profile as a person these days lol 



> Those sorta middle-eastern string bends starting at about 1:46 over the kick drum/hat thing are very odd.


I actually like that part a lot, the harmony is.... weird.

Thanks again for listening. I understand that this piece is not everyone's cup of tea and I also see faults in it so I appreciate you taking the time to comment in such a constructive manner.


*Hi Ray and thank you,*



> It works for me!
> The only comment I would have other than that is, the closed sound of the bass and guitars. I feel you've dampened them too much. Maybe it's just my monitors?



The bass was dry and no eq/filter in this occasion apart from the end mastering, so i think i could change the samples themselves next time. For guitars I used 2 solo guitar presets and made the rhythm tracks with those as well which was kinda ... lazy, since Rhythm tracks don't always work well with delay + verb.


*Thanks for listening Lux!*



> I quite like the overall feel of this piece, its kinda Elfman meets Vinnie Moore meets disco, a very cool and funny (in a good sense) melting pot that shows a nice fantasy. I liked much the harmonic changes in the middle.



Thanks Lux, part of writing this piece was a "Harmonic excersise" to get me back in the writing game and wake up some of that sleeping creativity.



> Which guitar did u use? It sounds a bit uhm at times but i know i'm somehow picky.



I actually have sampled my yamaha guitar direct in the sound card, nothing huge, just 3 RR opens and 4 RR mute notes + rels.



> in general Its fun stuff, thanks for sharing it



Thanks for listening! 

Theo


----------



## Blackster (Aug 13, 2009)

Hi Theo,

I enjoyed listening to your piece. 

I think you've written a nice composition but I don't like the sound. Especially the mix of the metal band does not match with your string orchestra (at least for my taste). I know by myself how hard it is to make the metal band blend well with the orchestra. So here are some suggestions, maybe they are useful:
- your bass in the beginning (and its fade into the background) does not fit into that style. Also the sound of the bass is to fat. Maybe you change the Ambience-Reverb (or whatever you used for the bass)
- the guitars are hidden way too much in the background. Although they only double some instruments, they seem to be played by some lazy guitar-players. Make the sound more aggressive, give them more presence and some more high frequencies maybe
- Your drumset (especially your kick drum, the hihat and the cymbals) is too quiet. Compared to the bass the sound is too small. Have a listen at around 0:45 that is a good example that there is much place for sound improvement  ...
- I would have placed the string orchestra more in the background and the whole metal band more in front of the listener. 
- why are your cymbals so quiet? I know they are there but they seem to be soooo tiny and thin ... maybe you can give some more presence to your overheads. btw: which samples did you use for the drums? ... I recommend Superior2.0 for that style, easy to mix and lots of tweaking options in no time. 

I hope you find this helpful. Anyway, nice stuff.


----------



## Matthias King (Aug 13, 2009)

I thought that was pretty neat honestly. And I second Blackster's recommendation of Superior Drummer. It sounds very nice, easy to mix, has a lot of options, pretty much everything he said. Though the drums in your piece already sounded ok honestly.


----------



## lux (Aug 13, 2009)

while i personally appreciate Blackster honest and detailed feedback (and riffwrath too), i think probably its up to Theo to clarify what he was looking for.

I mean, not all metal is "actual" metal and most of all not all music that includes metal hints has to do with "actual production music metal influenced". 

I mean, if Theo is trying to sound "up to date" and "current sounding" (terrible definitions but very often used out there) then probably whats written is absolutely spot on. But in case he's not, then probably we could see this (as many other works that happen to be posted here) with a more open minded vision and accept worlds where a baroque-guitarish-orchestral piece easily lives with a disco bass on it and with some non DFH drum sound on it, and without guitar chunks...and....

I would be curious to hear the author on that matter


----------



## TheoKrueger (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks guys for the feedback, I find all the comments very useful and thoughtful

I wasn't actually going for a specific sound, as long as I could hear all the instruments and tracks playing in the end. I wish the mix had been better, more clear and balanced, but i am not really a good engineer to sculpt it exactly as i would want it to be without using too much time. I have enough trouble making a Metal or a orchestral piece sound good on their own, let alone a mix of the two  And to be honest, i don't think this piece really deserved being treated with too much care and time because the composition itself was not something so great. It would of sounded better with a good production, but not so much better imo!

I also think its different when you are intending the music for a specific audience, lets say the Symphonic Metal audience, and different when you are writing for yourself as was the case with this piece.

When you are writing for yourself, i think the priority is to express exactly what you have in mind and get it out on the paper (Or the midi) instead of worrying too much about how it will sound to a 3rd party.

But, usually that's how i balance my mixes, equal volume for all instruments so that you may focus on the one you prefer to listen to. Something that is difficult sometimes, especially in metal/orchestra mixes with many tracks.

I agree that the strings, especially the solo line was kinda loud and could be set back together with the other comments.

Ideally this piece would have a really nice midi mockup and transparent ambience for the orchestra while also having some very tight rhythm and drums + the two would not interfere with eachother so much. You know... a nice and dry red sound for the guitars and bass 

Thanks for all the comments and the time posting them guys,

I think that I either need to put more love into what i make, or love what i make more. Ha 

Cheers,
Theo


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Aug 13, 2009)

I like the ADD nature of the piece. It's rock orchestra so I do not feel there need be any rules applied to form. Since it is rock I was hoping toward the end that the guitar would double the string lines to accentuate the climaxing of the piece. I don't know if you have those kind of chops but it would not only mask the string sound but add a more aggressive edge.


----------



## mixolydian (Aug 13, 2009)

Cool, I like it.


----------



## TheoKrueger (Aug 14, 2009)

Thanks for listening Craig, Chops? The guitar was samples.. I think copy paste is a better term :- ) I agree for the aggresiveness as it would contrast nicely with the orchestra 

Thanks Mixolydian!


----------



## Ian Dorsch (Aug 14, 2009)

I enjoyed it too, Theo. Of course, as you say, it's a bit rough around the edges and there are some elements of the mix I would probably quibble with, but musically I think it's a lot of fun. I especially dig the changes about halfway through.


----------



## Waywyn (Aug 14, 2009)

Theo, I completely have to hold against that! 
This piece definitely deserves some more attention since it is such a cool style and there is so much crazy stuff going on ...

I really don't listen to lots of pieces from beginning to end, but on this I definitely did.
Writingwise it is definitely a journey! 

In terms of sound, I honestly have to say the drumsound sucks 
No matter which lib it is, it takes a lot to get a good drumsounds ... I am still struggling after around ten years of either recording live drums or working with samples. To me it sounds like someone would occasionally hit the table while listening to a classical tune  (yes I know, I am kinda mean today)

I also thing there are definitely no rules which should apply writing wise. I would consider this art of freedom. You don't write this for a trailer nor a pop/rock album or do background music for games ... it is just a piece you enjoyed writing.

A bit of better balance to get the orchestra combined with the guitars, drums and bass and you honestly learned a good lesson. To me it is the hardest part to write that hybrid style ... and sometimes the mixing, EQing an compressing of those two elements takes sometimes more than writing the track.


Oh, one thing which really caught my mind right from the beginning was, that the piece is called Dorian's reflection ... and started off with lydian :D


----------



## TheoKrueger (Aug 14, 2009)

Thanks for listening Ian, i'm glad you enjoyed it :- )





> Theo, I completely have to hold against that!
> This piece definitely deserves some more attention since it is such a cool style and there is so much crazy stuff going on ...
> 
> I really don't listen to lots of pieces from beginning to end, but on this I definitely did.
> Writingwise it is definitely a journey!



Thanks! My attention and interest span is quite..... ehm... drifty i'd say, that's why i usually make pieces with a lot of harmonic and structure changes so i can stand listening to them until the end 



> A bit of better balance to get the orchestra combined with the guitars, drums and bass and you honestly learned a good lesson. To me it is the hardest part to write that hybrid style ... and sometimes the mixing, EQing an compressing of those two elements takes sometimes more than writing the track.



Yes, I think you are right, sometimes I think that trying to make everything sound big on its own (each instrument) can make the mix very difficult to handle. Sometimes its best to try a more modest and smaller production for each instrument so that they can all fit together in the "scenery"



> In terms of sound, I honestly have to say the drumsound sucks
> No matter which lib it is, it takes a lot to get a good drumsounds ... I am still struggling after around ten years of either recording live drums or working with samples. To me it sounds like someone would occasionally hit the table while listening to a classical tune  (yes I know, I am kinda mean today)



I am now officially considering changing the drums sounds :D



> I also think there are definitely no rules which should apply writing wise. I would consider this art of freedom. You don't write this for a trailer nor a pop/rock album or do background music for games ... it is just a piece you enjoyed writing.



Totally agreed, sometimes you need to write something outside the box so that you can really know what your limits and boundaries are, or even try to break them now and then.



> Oh, one thing which really caught my mind right from the beginning was, that the piece is called Dorian's reflection ... and started off with lydian :D



Haha Alex, this last thing really made me laugh out :D

Thanks for the kind words, I am glad you enjoyed this piece and appreciate it for what it is 

Best regards,
Theo


----------



## Krakatau (Aug 16, 2009)

Waywyn @ 14th August 2009 said:


> Writingwise it is definitely a journey!



So true !

...Could really sound like the story of one life depending on how you're open to it,
i'm persuaded such style of composition can surpass almost anything on intensity for many listener's sensitivity, partially related to the density of it structuration

it might shine a bit petty to describe it that way , but it is how i experienced it when i was young


----------



## careyford (Aug 16, 2009)

Theo,

This is really a ton of fun and seems to be successful at what you intended it to be. I can almost see my Christmas lights timed to it, flashing with reckless abandon and annoying the numbers. The mix sounds a little closed to me, as you and others have noted, but the overall sound does remind me favorably of the Mannheim Steamroller recordings. I'm doing a lot of hybrid writing for the feature I'm working on and this is stimulating. I've gotten stuck in long notes. This is inspiring me to write more runs. :twisted: 

Guilty pleasure, sure. I like it!

Richard


----------



## R.Cato (Aug 16, 2009)

@Theo: Wow it's a really great piece of music in my opinion. You combined two of my favourite music artists: Nightwish and Danny Elfman.

The Baroque strings, drums and guitars reminds me of Nightwish and when the choir jumps in it could be a Danny Elfman composition for a movie by Tim Burton. Really enjoyed listenting. Pls keep on writing such music. =o 

cheers Robin


----------



## TheoKrueger (Aug 16, 2009)

careyford @ Sun Aug 16 said:


> Theo,
> 
> This is really a ton of fun and seems to be successful at what you intended it to be. I can almost see my Christmas lights timed to it, flashing with reckless abandon and annoying the numbers. The mix sounds a little closed to me, as you and others have noted, but the overall sound does remind me favorably of the Mannheim Steamroller recordings. I'm doing a lot of hybrid writing for the feature I'm working on and this is stimulating. I've gotten stuck in long notes. This is inspiring me to write more runs. :twisted:
> 
> ...



Thanks Richard! Glad you enjoyed the piece. I'll be paying more attention to the production in my next projects. You just reminded me of this classic christmas video by the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmgf60CI ... re=related

I really like that vid, the music is great :- )



> @Theo: Wow it's a really great piece of music in my opinion. You combined two of my favourite music artists: Nightwish and Danny Elfman.
> 
> The Baroque strings, drums and guitars reminds me of Nightwish and when the choir jumps in it could be a Danny Elfman composition for a movie by Tim Burton. Really enjoyed listenting. Pls keep on writing such music. punkgroove
> 
> cheers Robin



Thanks a lot Robin for the nice comments! I really like Danny Elfman by the way, have you heard his "Serenada Schizophrana"? Very interesting CD to listen to. I'll be writing more of this stuff in the future for sure. I'm glad you enjoyed it.


Cheers,
Theo


----------

