# Good software for loop editing ?



## Fredeke

Hi. Does anyone have a software to recommend, for finding and editing loops in wavs, including custom crossfades and overlaying wave display ? (I'm running Windows)


----------



## rrichard63

Have you looked at Acon Digital's Acoustica Premium? When I researched this question I thought it was the best value for the money. Here's a glowing review:

http://soundbytesmag.net/review-acoustica-premium-edition-7-1-by-acon-digital/


----------



## Fredeke

Thanks! I'll check it out.


----------



## Rob

Beat creator by Zero x but it seems to have disappeared... after more than ten years I'm still using it
Do you by chance have Extreme sample converter? I think it does a pretty good job at looping


----------



## Fredeke

@rrichard63 : Acoustica Premium 7: Ok, I just tried it, and it does the job. If I'm still happy at the end of the day, I might purchase it.

I'll see if I find it as good as Wave Robot, which I've been using. But Wave Robot is too buggy anyway: sometimes it doesn't save the loop, and other problems like that... Let's hope this one is more reliable.



Rob said:


> Do you by chance have Extreme sample converter? I think it does a pretty good job at looping


I uninstalled it because it did a terrible job at converting 
Maybe I should give it one more chance...


----------



## Rob

Fredeke said:


> I uninstalled it because it did a terrible job at converting
> Maybe I should give it one more chance...


really? Used it multiple times, always with good results...


----------



## d.healey

Loop Auditioneer, Reaper, EndlessWav


----------



## Fredeke

Ok, about Acoustica Premium 7 : the visual assist is not great but it's something. Overall, I did a quick job, and almost as good as I was doing in Wave Robot. I might keep using it. 
Strange thing: When trying to load the WAVs saved by Acoustica in Sound Forge, Sound Forge tells me every other file is corrupted, and becomes unstable. I found a workaround by loading the WAVs in yet another sampler and re-saving them, but I still need to find one that loads and resaves them in batches, without crashing.



d.healey said:


> Loop Auditioneer, Reaper, EndlessWav


Could you tell me what loop creation assistance Reaper provides ? Or is it just a matter of devising the right method ?
I am using it on a daily basis, but I couldn't manage to create crossfaded loops with it, at least not in an efficient manner. I do a lot of fiddling and fine tuning on each loop, and I need a tool that helps me do that quickly, with visual assist if possible.


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> Could you tell me what loop creation assistance Reaper provides ? Or is it just a matter of devising the right method ?


My usual workflow is to batch generate loops for my close mic samples in LoopAuditioneer, then bring all the looped samples into Reaper and extract the loop points as regions so that the other mic positions have the exact same loops. Sometimes though I need to do the looping in Reaper if Loop Auditioneer didn't have any luck. All I do is look at the waveform for two bits that look similar, then I listen to them, if they sound pretty close to each other I then zoom in to sample level and at zero crossings (the Z key is helpful here) I place a region that starts and ends on the two bits I determined to be similar. Then I select the area inside the region and play it back with looping enabled to see if it sounds good. Usually I can get seamless loops pretty quickly this way.



> I couldn't manage to create crossfaded loops with it


Crossfades should be added in the sampler.


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> My usual workflow is to batch generate loops for my close mic samples in LoopAuditioneer, then bring all the looped samples into Reaper and extract the loop points as regions so that the other mic positions have the exact same loops.


Good idea ! My own trick is so much dirtier I don't dare to tell it 



d.healey said:


> Usually I can get seamless loops pretty quickly this way.


Then you're better at it than me :-/
I work along the same principle, but usually, a few ms of fade is still necessary.



d.healey said:


> Crossfades should be added in the sampler.


But then if they're not rendered in the sample, they are sampler-dependent ? I want my perfectly looped wavs to be sampler independent.


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> Then you're better at it than me :-/


Actually a little crossfade might be needed to get them completely click free 



> But then if they're not rendered in the sample, they are sampler-dependent ?


Yes.



> I want my perfectly looped wavs to be sampler independent.


When samplers crossfade a loop they overlap some of the end of the loop with some of the beginning and use an EP crossfade. I don't think this can be rendered into a sample can it?


----------



## Rob

d.healey said:


> When samplers crossfade a loop they overlap some of the end of the loop with some of the beginning and use an EP crossfade. I don't think this can be rendered into a sample can it?


I think it does, it's an actual audio xfade rendered in the sample...


----------



## d.healey

Rob said:


> I think it does, it's an actual audio xfade rendered in the sample...


When I've done it in LoopAuditioneer it just puts a kind of volume dip at the end of the sample. How do you tell the sampler that this is a crossfade? and how does the sampler know where the crossfade starts and ends (is it in the wave header)?


----------



## Rob

d.healey said:


> When I've done it in LoopAuditioneer it just puts a kind of volume dip at the end of the sample. How do you tell the sampler that this is a crossfade? and how does the sampler know where the crossfade starts and ends (is it in the wave header)?


when a xfade is applied, the actual waveform is modified. It's not just a dip in volume, the two ends of the loop are blended for a duration equal to that of the crossfade. A new sample is created, and if you listen to it without the xfade, you can hear the alteration in the sample where the xfade occurs.
In other words, the sampler doesn't apply a crossfade, but simply loops the loop...


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> When samplers crossfade a loop they overlap some of the end of the loop with some of the beginning and use an EP crossfade.


You'll have to educate me... What's an EP crossfade ?


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> Hm, you'll need to educate me... What's an EP crossfade ?


Equal power



Rob said:


> when a xfade is applied, the actual waveform is modified. It's not just a dip in volume, the two ends of the loop are blended for a duration equal to that of the crossfade.


You lost me when you said the two ends of the loop are blended. How does this work in a single wave file? Could you show me a wave file with this? If the start of the loop is also faded in some way then won't you hear the volume change at the start of the loop (the first time it plays before it actually loops around)?



> A new sample is created, and if you listen to it without the xfade, you can hear the alteration in the sample where the xfade occurs.


I don't understand. A single sample is created in the wave file?


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> You lost me when you said the two ends of the loop are blended. How does this work in a single wave file? Could you show me a wave file with this? If the start of the loop is also faded in some way then won't you hear the volume change at the start of the loop (the first time it plays before it actually loops around)?
> 
> I don't understand. A single sample is created in the wave file?



For files containing an initial phase before the loop, you can't alter the wave at the beginning of the loop, but you can alter it at the end.
Here's how it goes: The part of the sample that comes just before the start of the loop is copied (and faded in) just before the end of the loop, overlaid to the actual end of the loop which is faded out. So when you listen to the whole wave, there is no alteration around the start of the loop, but if you wanted to listen through the whole file, without looping, from attack to release, then you'd hear a big sonic jump when crossing the loop end point. So this method is actually good when there is something before the loop and nothing after it. That's one reason why we store the release phase in another file (another reason for that is to not have to wait for an entire loop cycle before switching to the release phase).

For files containing only a loop (with no lead-in), you can afford to alter both the beginning and the end of the loop.

In any case, the result is a brand new wav, supposed to replace the unlooped one (which you should keep in your archives, but are not really going to use).

If you do your crossfades well, there is no perceived volume change. Some sample editors allow you to pick the most suitable xfade curve (equal power being the most common one, I think).


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> The part of the sample that comes just before the start of the loop is copied (and faded in) just before the end of the loop, overlaid to the actual end of the loop which is faded out. So when you listen to the whole wave, there is no alteration around the start of the loop, but if you wanted to listen through what comes after the loop (e.g. the release phase), then you'd hear a big sonic jump between the end of the loop and what follows. So this method is actually good when there is something before the loop and nothing after it.
> 
> The result is a brand new wav, supposed to replace the unlooped one (which you should keep in your archives, but are not really going to use).


Could you send me such a wav file that has this crossfade data embedded in it? I've not seen one.


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> Could you send me such a wav file that has this crossfade data embedded in it? I've not seen one.



There is no crossfade data. The waveform is already processed.

Some loop editors will remember what they've done by saving xfade data in a proprietary "project" file format, linking to the original (unaltered) wav... But the exported wav is a brand new, yet utterly common file, which can be played without further realtime processing.

Other editors will just save the processed wav and forget everything once you quit them. In that case, if you've overwritten the original (by not Saving "As..."), there is no going back.


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> There is no crossfade data. The waveform is already processed.
> 
> Some loop editors will remember what they've done by saving that data in a proprietary "project" file format, linking to the original (unaltered) wav... But the exported wav is a brand new, yet utterly common file, which can be played without further realtime processing.


Now I'm totally confused. I thought we are talking about a crossfade that is added to the wav file and is independent of a sampler or audio editor... It seems like you are referring to the type of crossfading that is applied within a sampler/audio editor and can only be played back by that sampler/audio editor.


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> Now I'm totally confused. I thought we are talking about a crossfade that is added to the wav file and is independent of a sampler or audio editor... It seems like you are referring to the type of crossfading that is applied within a sampler/audio editor and can only be played back by that sampler/audio editor.


I meant the former.
Sorry if my talk about editors confuses you. I realize it's not easy to put this into words (video would be a better medium I suppose).

In short : the wave is processed beforehand, so there is no need for crossfade data.

(The only relevant data are loop start and loop end points, which is pretty standard metadata for .wav files. Is that what you meant?)


----------



## Rob

here's a (low res) video of an oboe sample, edited in Seamless Looper. I first select a portion of the wave, auto-search for loop points, say yes to an obvious bad loop, open crossfade window, change the xfade width, and apply. You can visually see the waveform change its profile in the loop portion.


----------



## d.healey

Rob said:


> here's a (low res) video of an oboe sample, edited in Seamless Looper. I first select a portion of the wave, auto-search for loop points, say yes to an obvious bad loop, open crossfade window, change the xfade width, and apply. You can visually see the waveform change its profile in the loop portion.


Ah now I get it, so it is a destructive process. No thanks  LoopAuditioneer does the same thing


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> So do you have a wave file that I can load into Kontakt and it will automatically have a crossfade in it?


Sure. Here you go.
Normally I would have cut the portion after the loop, but I left it in so you can see how useless it is 

(ps.: you won't hear or see the crossfade because i've done a good job, but it's there, in the last few ms before the end of the loop)


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> Sure. Here you go.
> Normally I would have cut the portion after the loop, but I left it in so you can see how useless it is
> 
> (ps.: you won't hear or see the crossfade because i've done a good job, but it's there, in the last few ms before the end of the loop)


Rob beat you too it, but thanks for the example


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> Ah now I get it, so it is a destructive process. No thanks  LoopAuditioneer does the same thing


Yes! That's what I meant. Though I didn't think of the key word _destructive_.


----------



## Rob

d.healey said:


> Ah now I get it, so it is a destructive process. No thanks  LoopAuditioneer does the same thing


exactly, LoopAuditioneer is also destructively altering the wavefile...
this way though, the loops are sampler independent


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> Loop Auditioneer, Reaper, EndlessWav


Waw, EndlessWav seems free, and Loop Auditioneer is downright Free Software !
Great, I'll check them out for my next looping job, and I'll let you know.


----------



## Fredeke

??? The only downloads I could find for Loop Auditioneer are on Sourceforge, where they say it exists for both Linux and Windows, but I can't find the Windows version ???

@d.healey : are you a Windows user ?


----------



## brenneisen

(not a sample dev)

I don't get it.

What's the advantage of doing this looping thing outside Kontakt if you need to set loop points again when assembling your instrument?


----------



## Rob

Fredeke said:


> ??? The only downloads I could find for Loop Auditioneer are on Sourceforge, where they say it exists for both Linux and Windows, but I can't find the Windows version ???
> 
> @d.healey : are you a Windows user ?


https://sourceforge.net/projects/loopauditioneer/files/latest/download

to be frank, it seems very slow, but it's free


----------



## Fredeke

Rob said:


> https://sourceforge.net/projects/loopauditioneer/files/latest/download
> 
> to be frank, it seems very slow, but it's free


Thanks !



brenneisen said:


> (not a sample dev)
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> What's the advantage of doing this looping thing outside Kontakt if you need to set loop points again when assembling your instrument?


No, you don't need to set the loop points again. They are stored in the wav's metadata.

The advantage of doing the looping outside Kontakt is that some loop editors provide better assistance for finding the best sounding loop points, and applying crossfades around them.

In short :
- the loop points are stored in the .wav's metadata
- the crossfade (if any is needed) is applied directly to the waveform, so it's in the .wav too, obviously


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> ??? The only downloads I could find for Loop Auditioneer are on Sourceforge, where they say it exists for both Linux and Windows, but I can't find the Windows version ???
> 
> @d.healey : are you a Windows user ?


I use Linux Mint, I had to compile it myself to get it to run.

How does the embedded xfade work with multi-mic samples?


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> I use Linux Mint, I had to compile it myself to get it to run.


I run Mint too, for my everyday use: administration, email, web, media player etc. 
I run Windows for music production, on a computer that never connects to the internet, to keep undesired updates from breaking my tools.
(I had a Mac before, but I got fed up with Apple's nonsense.)
I'm quite happy with this comprom... er, combination.



d.healey said:


> How does the embedded xfade work with multi-mic samples ?


Are you asking me ? Didn't you just explain your workflow for doing just that ?
I sample analog synths, so I don't have to worry about mic placement, but once in a blue moon I have to synchronize loops nevertheless. While I was using sample robot, I substituted the original wav in sr's back and generated a new export of the project (that's the dirty solution I was talking about).
But I haven't tried Auditioneer out yet (barely downloaded it), and I don't expect to have to synchronize loops in the near future.

I'm not sure I understand the question.


----------



## d.healey

> Are you asking me ?


You or rob 


> Didn't you just explain your workflow for doing just that ?


I don't use crossfades embedded in the sample, I add them afterwards in the sampler so I don't know how you'd apply embedded loop points to the other mic positions.


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> I don't use crossfades embedded in the sample, I add them afterwards in the sampler


I didn't know you could do that.
Are we talking about Kontakt ? (I've just started learning it, and I find myself more excited by KSP than by its more conventional features... I know I may be putting the cart before the horse...)

@Rob , @d.healey : Ah, now I get it. Sourceforge autodetects my operating system. I have to download from a Windows machine in order to get the Windows version !


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> I didn't know you could do that.
> Are we talking about Kontakt ? (I've just started learning it, and I find myself more excited by KSP than by its more conventional features... I know I may be putting the cart before the horse...)


I use HISE, but yes you can add them in Kontakt too, in the wave editor - no scripting necessary.


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> I use HISE, but yes you can add them in Kontakt too, in the wave editor - no scripting necessary.


Oh, right. You're the HISE guy 
I find the idea of a free software sampler even more exciting... Augh, there is so little time and so much to learn !


----------



## Fredeke

d.healey said:


> I don't use crossfades embedded in the sample, I add them afterwards in the sampler so I don't know how you'd apply embedded loop points to the other mic positions.


Now that I think of it, I wonder... What are the advantages of that ?
Is keeping the whole wave unaltered desirable in some cases ?
More desirable than having cross-samplerly usable loop ?

And now that I think of that too: can't you expand your Reaper trick and do the fades in Reaper as well ?


----------



## d.healey

Fredeke said:


> Now that I think of it, I wonder... What are the advantages of that ?
> Is keeping the whole wave unaltered desirable in some cases ?
> More desirable than having cross-samplerly usable loop ?


I always prefer a none destructive approach because I don't know how the samples will be used in the future. Also when you say "cross-samplerly" - there are not that many full featured samplers available and adding a crossfade to all mapped samples takes less than 30 seconds. The other advantage, for me anyway, is I can have identical loops + xfades across multiple mic positions.



> And now that I think of that too: can't you expand your Reaper trick and do the fades in Reaper as well ?


I've never tried but you can do almost anything in Reaper.


----------

