# Idiomatic writing for orchestra - general guidelines



## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Hi all,

When writing for orchestra, are there certain keys which are "preferred" (by players) for certain instruments? Conversely, are there certain keys players like to avoid?

For example, if I have a melody for french horn in Eb, would this be more difficult for a player than the same melody in D?

Caveat: When I say "difficult", I am not talking about pros who can play pretty much anything. I am talking about writing that is idiomatic to the instrument - writing that just flows rather than requiring the player to perform acrobatics 

I once had a conversation with a cello player who told me she preferred playing in keys with as few accidentals as possible. Is this because she has more options to hit open strings and get maximum resonance (I assume so)? I would think brass and wind players face the same kinds of issues - certain interval leaps might require repositioning of fingers or a different breathing pattern in one key, but might be trivial in another.

Anyway, just curious for general thoughts on this topic.

Thanks in advance,
Marc


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## Hannes_F (Feb 21, 2014)

Good keys for strings are anything between 2 - 3 Bb's and 4 #'s. For Brass it is the other way round (roughly) because of their Bb tuning (true for some of them).

Everything else is doable, and the more experienced the players are, the better. However it might need more rehearsal time in order to get the same result, or it might sound better from the start on, depending on how you look at it.

The use of open strings - it is helpful for solo playing but for orchestra playing one would try to avoid them most of the times, except if things get fast. The reason is that they tend to fall out of the rest. There is no musical reason for playing a line line smooth - smooth - eeek - smooth (although that happens).

This all is just rough and there are expeptions to any rule. However it might help as an orientation.


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## bbunker (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: Idiomatic writing for orchestra*

That's a loaded question. It's actually like hundreds of questions in one!

I'll give you an example: Octave flips on the flute are relatively easy; look at the flute's etude repertoire, and there's tons of big leaps of the octave, since it being a cylindrical bore instrument, it means that most of those moves are accomplished with minimal fingering changes. On the clarinet on the other hand, since it's conical, the octave isn't the overblowing frequency, and octave moves that would have been easy on the flute are not nearly as easy to achieve on the clarinet.

The brass...well, they'd rather play 'horn calls' in the wackiest double-sharped key than a bunch of chromatic, key-jumping maneuvers. It's just easier (and more idiomatic) to play the harmonic series than to keep basically changing the key of your instrument every note.

What I'd recommend, and what I think the journey of any orchestrator is, is to immerse yourself in the music of the instrument. Take the flute. Grab a method. Look at flute etudes. Look at a 'difficult audition pieces' book for flute. Look at how baroque flute parts looked, and what modern pieces for flute are like. Look at flute parts for symphonic works. Look at some flute concertos. Look at the flute in woodwind quintets.

Do that for every instrument, and you'll 1.) Learn a lot about these instruments, and 2.) Discover a whole bunch of great music, and 3.) Basically learn how to write for the orchestra.

I feel like this is a journey that I'm definitely still going on, but every chance to see how the music works in the hands of the player helps; going to one rehearsal with a woodwind quintet is like months of playing around with sample libraries, or reading Instrumentation textbooks!


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: Idiomatic writing for orchestra*

These are great responses. Thanks, guys.

bbunker, I know it is a loaded question! I also know it will take years and years to really gain an understanding... 

I think my question is more seeking some general principles (e.g. like Hannes mentioned above with the flats and sharps) that might be helpful for a newbie orchestrator like myself. The point you made on the octave leaps is a very good one and something I would never know if I just stayed on the computer!

I probably need to follow mverta's advice and just head down to the local college and get to know some of those players. :-D Again, thanks for the feedback.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 21, 2014)

This is a great example of while it is important to learn about the exceptions and the specialities and all is relative anyways . . . it is still important to see where the beacons are in order to know 'exception from *what*'.

I have had two harmony teachers, one was complicated and one delivered the basics neat and easy. I loved the second. And I am free to go against the simple solutions anytime (and I even search for that often).


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

So, Hannes, based on your comment, the key of Eb would be better suited for the french horn than D? I was thinking that a horn in F might prefer the notes of the Eb scale, but I have nothing factual to back that up.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> So, Hannes, based on your comment, the key of Eb would be better suited for the french horn than D? I was thinking that a horn in F might prefer the notes of the Eb scale, but I have nothing factual to back that up.



Actually, there is some reason to my thinking...

Brass overtones are largely based on the harmonic series. OK, I've got that.

So, for a horn in F, I would think the instrument will naturally encounter more notes from the Eb major scale than D major. Notes like B natural and F# (from D) would be encountered much higher up in the harmonic series than those from Eb.

Is there any reason to this line of thinking? Or do modern valves allow the instrument to perform in D just as naturally as Eb?

Also, the reason I asked the question about the strings / cello was because I know that guitar players often prefer the "open string" sound - in fact certain chords just don't sound right unless open strings are used. So, they drop tune the instrument to get that sound, effectively creating an idiomatic playing situation.

I'm just trying to understand the correlation between the natural characteristics of the instrument and the notes it is being asked to play... and if there are any general rules or principles that makes sense when writing for those instruments.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 21, 2014)

@marclawsonmusic
Once we have the basic rule we can say where the exeptions are. For my thinking the horns belong somehow both to the family of brass and woodwinds. So they fall out a bit of the Bb rule that is more valid for trumpet and trombone. A preference for Bb keys is there (for an F horn) but it is not as distinct.

As to the difference between D and Eb (which one?) for a modern horn .. I'll pass that to horn experts.


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## muk (Feb 21, 2014)

Some very basic principles off the top of my head that may help you getting started. Note that these are not rules which apply in any circumstances, but principles that work in most situations. They can be deviated from if you know what you're doing.

Each instrument you're using has something meaningful and interesting to do by itself. If some of the parts you are writing are boring by themselves, or make no musical sense when listening to them individually, chances are that the whole arrangement will not sound good.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with rests. Winds and brass often don't play for many bars, and even pages. Only use them when you need them. As long as they play something interesting when coming in, these part will be just fine. When they're playing, don't forget that winds need to breathe every now and then.

Most importantly: use your instruments in their natural registers for most of the time. In a classical orchestra you have all the registers covered by specific instruments. For example: don't play the oboe much above the staves often. You have flutes for that.
Don't use the extreme registers of the instruments, except when you want to achieve a very specific effect.

So, when all the instruments play in their natural registers, and play something at least remotely interesting, your arrangement will not sound bad. That's a very good starting point! It's maybe not the most refined orchestration yet, but you know that basically it will work.


If you get used to write in that way, you will discover many many more subtleties. But they don't have to be of any concern to the beginner yet. Just an example: it often doesn't sound good when oboes and clarinets play in unison, or worse, parallel thirds. It just often sounds somehow 'wonky'. That's why oboes are coupled with flutes or bassoons more often than with clarinets.

And to elongate this post even more, an interesting case from music history:

In Tchaikowsky's 6. symphony (called 'Pathétique'), 1st movement, there's an idiomatic phrase at the end of the exposition. The first clarinet plays a solo, ppppp, that goes below it's lowest possible note. The first bassoon takes over, and plays the last four notes of the phrase pppppp. Problem is, clarinets can play almost inaudibly soft. And bassoons can't, even less so in the lower register.
In this delicate phrase there's a high risk that the bassoon will stick out like a sore thumb after the clarinet's playing, simply because it can't play as delicately in this register. That's why almost all orchestras today have a bass clarinet play those four notes, not the bassoon (despite Tchaikovsky's different orchestration).

So, if we write such a passage (I know we never will  But you know what I mean), we should use the bass clarinet, not the bassoon - because from an orchestrators point of view that would have been the better choice. Yet, I think there are VERY good musical reasons why Tchaikovsky used the bassoon. Heck, I even think it's genius and a mistake to have the bass clarinet play it. But as said, that's for structural and musical reasons, not for orchestrating ones.
That's just one example where a general 'rule' has been broken, but as said, for VERY good reasons and only for a specific purpose.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Hey muk, thanks for such a thoughtful and interesting post. 

I will give that Tchaikovsky a listen to hear what you mean.


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## bbunker (Feb 21, 2014)

One thing to keep in mind with brass instruments is that valves and slides change the instrument itself. In your French Horn, for instance, it's actually at least 2 horns in one. You'll often hear the phrase "Double Horn." There are also a number of Triple Horns, with one pitched in F, one pitched in Bb, and then another pitched either at Eb or F.

But this isn't unique to the French Horn...those keys, those valves, and that slide changes the length of the instrument, so that the Trumpet in C with the half-step valve pressed down is now, for our purposes, a Trumpet in B. So, an ascending major arpeggio in B major is far easier to play than a heavily chromatic line in Bb, even though it may theoretically be an 'easier key.'

This might sound silly, but try fingering the lines you'd want to play.

And, just as a thought to your last question, Mozart wrote 1 horn concerto in D, and 3 in Eb. Strauss wrote two in Eb. D was a really, really popular key for natural horn concerti in the baroque period, so modern hornists would probably have played some of that material so...go wild with both!!!


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Great stuff, bbunker. Thanks for sharing all of that :-D


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## muk (Feb 21, 2014)

Here are some recordings of that said passage. It's just the last four notes of that wonderful solo. (!! Don't crank up your listening volume too much, right after the solo there's a tutti ff, so it gets suddenly really loud!!)

One of the many with bass clarinet:

http://youtu.be/rvgOVjgOZOw?t=9m20s


One with bassoon, and it went wrong (the bassoon sticks out unpleasantly):
http://youtu.be/HmyiAAhNgaw?t=8m19s

And a rare, rare one with bassoon where it works!

http://youtu.be/Qj6XXwvH_9U?t=8m47s


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## Conor (Feb 21, 2014)

Trumpet players (and other Bb instruments like trombones and clarinets) tend to be more accustomed to flat keys.

BUT, the difference between a couple of sharps and a couple of flats is not really that big a deal. What's more important is avoiding excessive numbers of sharps OR flats, considering instruments with different transpositions.

For example -- Let's say you have a Strings + Brass piece in the key of Eb, and you're considering nudging it up a half-step to E, or down to D.

If the strings are in the key of E, then the horns are seeing their key of B (five sharps), and the trumpets & bones are seeing F# (six sharps). Yuck. You should probably rule this one out. 

If the strings are in the key of Eb, then the horns are seeing Bb (two flats), and the trumpets & bones are seeing F (one flat). Easy.

If the strings are in the key of D, then the horns are seeing A (three sharps) and the trumpets & bones are seeing E (four sharps). Not as easy, but not a big problem either, depending on the level of the group.


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## Conor (Feb 21, 2014)

Maybe worth clarifying that what I wrote above is strictly about technical difficulty (especially when sight-reading) and NOT about ranges or resonances or anything like that.

Concert E is a pretty terrible key for the brass... but suppose you really want this hypothetical piece to be in E because you believe it's the most joyful key, or because you want the basses to be able to nail the root with their open E-string, and meanwhile the tubas & horns are just going oom-pah oom-pah (speaking of idiomatic) and the trumpets and bones are blaring out long tones on roots and fifths... then go ahead and write in E free of guilt. :D


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

muk @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Here are some recordings of that said passage. It's just the last four notes of that wonderful solo. (!! Don't crank up your listening volume too much, right after the solo there's a tutti ff, so it gets suddenly really loud!!)
> 
> One of the many with bass clarinet:
> 
> ...



Whoa! You weren't lying about that second example... The bassoon sticks out like a sore thumb!

Thanks for providing these links, muk. All queued up to the right spot and everything. What a great real-life example on orchestration.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

CobraTrumpet @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Trumpet players (and other Bb instruments like trombones and clarinets) tend to be more accustomed to flat keys.
> 
> BUT, the difference between a couple of sharps and a couple of flats is not really that big a deal. What's more important is avoiding excessive numbers of sharps OR flats, considering instruments with different transpositions.
> 
> ...



This is a terrific real-world example. Makes a lot of sense.



CobraTrumpet @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Maybe worth clarifying that what I wrote above is strictly about technical difficulty (especially when sight-reading) and NOT about ranges or resonances or anything like that.
> 
> Concert E is a pretty terrible key for the brass... but suppose you really want this hypothetical piece to be in E because you believe it's the most joyful key, or because you want the basses to be able to nail the root with their open E-string, and meanwhile the tubas & horns are just going oom-pah oom-pah (speaking of idiomatic) and the trumpets and bones are blaring out long tones on roots and fifths... then go ahead and write in E free of guilt. :D



No no no... I would never want to be THAT composer. I could never grab a beer with the brass section if I did that... I hear those guys have the most fun 

Again, great real-world insight... Thank you for sharing.


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## bryla (Feb 21, 2014)

bbunker @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> And, just as a thought to your last question, Mozart wrote 1 horn concerto in D, and 3 in Eb. Strauss wrote two in Eb. D was a really, really popular key for natural horn concerti in the baroque period, so modern hornists would probably have played some of that material so...go wild with both!!!



Well neither Mozart nor Strauss lived during the baroque period. Mozart only wrote for natural horn. You had to change crooks in order to make the tubing longer for particular keys. This was done ahead of pieces or movements and did not change then, since it would be very noisy. When the crooks were in place, it really didn't matter which key they played in, since they only played on the harmonic series of the length of the tube.

Strauss however lived in a time were the modern horn evolved and the F and Bb crooks were combined with valves.


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## bryla (Feb 21, 2014)

found this nice video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vD0grE5F_g


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## bbunker (Feb 21, 2014)

bryla, sorry...you seem to misunderstand. I was speaking about three different, discrete entities: the Horn Concertos by Mozart, those by Strauss, and those by Baroque Composers. And, I didn't mean to imply that they are easy or difficult to play in those keys because of some connection between them, or the connection between the pieces, the means of playing in those keys (either by crooks or by modern valve or pumpenvalve techniques) and the ease of playing them.

Just pointing out precedence!

And, since we're writing for Modern horn players, the OP doesn't really need to know whether a particular work would be played on a natural, crooked, or valved instrument, since he knows that a modern player is going to do what he or she does on the material given. The important thing is knowing that the player will have seen it. Unless we're writing for period instruments, the history of the instrument is informing the origin of instrument technique, but doesn't place demands on future composing!


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