# Looking for recommendations for accurate studio monitors



## wbacer

I'm looking to purchase a pair of accurate studio monitors for mixing orchestral midi mockups. My price range is somewhere between 2 to 4 K. What type of monitors are you using to mix your midi mockups? Yes, acoustic room treatment is important and I need to go out to do some side by side listening but as a starting point, I was hoping to tap into your expertise. I'll be hooking these up to my Apogee Symphony IO.
Thanks in advance for any advice you may be willing to share.


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## muk

Not that I am an expert in that field or know all the competitors, but I am very happy with my Geithain RL 906. Amphion speakers are praised often as well. If you want to spend some time reading, here are some hundred pages of info:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/851143-high-end-nearfield-test.html

Audiovisjon tested a huge amount of speakers in his studio and wrote in depth about his experience. It's a good starting point for research.


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## mc_deli

What currency?
For 4k GBP you are close to a 5.1 Neumann KH120a plus Neumann sub plus monitor controller.

Where are you?
In Europe Thomann are great as you can stuff on sale or return. I had 1.5k inc. monitor controller. I chose KRKVXT6+sub over KH120a (no sub) and the cheap SM Pro controller over the Drawmer. 
I have listened a lot to Amphion One15 (3k inc amp and cables) side-by-side with Genelec 8260a (7k - range down to 29hz). The Amphions are a joy to listen to. The Genelecs are very revealing.
There are just so many choices. A sub or great low range I think is important.
Try as many as you can!


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## Vin

I'd get a pair of Neumann KH120as and a single Avantone MixCube. If you don't have a good pair of cans, get a pair of DT 880 Pro or HD600 or HD650, get them calibrated and you won't need anything else.


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## wbacer

muk said:


> Not that I am an expert in that field or know all the competitors, but I am very happy with my Geithain RL 906. Amphion speakers are praised often as well. If you want to spend some time reading, here are some hundred pages of info:
> 
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/851143-high-end-nearfield-test.html
> 
> Audiovisjon tested a huge amount of speakers in his studio and wrote in depth about his experience. It's a good starting point for research.


Thanks for sharing the link. I appreciate you adding to my research base. Lots to think about and listen to. I'll see if I can find a pair of the Geithain RL 906's to listen to.


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## wbacer

mc_deli said:


> What currency?
> For 4k GBP you are close to a 5.1 Neumann KH120a plus Neumann sub plus monitor controller.
> 
> Where are you?
> In Europe Thomann are great as you can stuff on sale or return. I had 1.5k inc. monitor controller. I chose KRKVXT6+sub over KH120a (no sub) and the cheap SM Pro controller over the Drawmer.
> I have listened a lot to Amphion One15 (3k inc amp and cables) side-by-side with Genelec 8260a (7k - range down to 29hz). The Amphions are a joy to listen to. The Genelecs are very revealing.
> There are just so many choices. A sub or great low range I think is important.
> Try as many as you can!


I live in the USA SoCal LA area. I know of a local dealer that has a well stocked, high end listening room so hopefully some of your recommendations will be available to listen to. Appreciate your feedback. Every bit helps, thank you.


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## wbacer

Vin said:


> I'd get a pair of Neumann KH120as and a single Avantone MixCube. If you don't have a good pair of cans, get a pair of DT 880 Pro or HD600 or HD650, get them calibrated and you won't need anything else.


Thanks for your recommendation. I have a pair of HD 800 cans. Love em, wide sound stage and for my head, extremely comfortable.


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## jamwerks

muk said:


> Not that I am an expert in that field or know all the competitors, but I am very happy with my Geithain RL 906. Amphion speakers are praised often as well.


Been working at a studio with Amphions. Hadn't even heard the name, but they are incredible, much more revealing than the PME's sitting next to them...


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## wbacer

jamwerks said:


> Been working at a studio with Amphions. Hadn't even heard the name, but they are incredible, much more revealing than the PME's sitting next to them...


If you could share the Amphion model number, that would be helpful. Thanks for your feedback.


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## clisma

If you can stretch your budget just another $500, I can highly recommend the Neumann KH310. 3-way, sealed cabinet and good, neutral frequency response, goes down to 35Hz, very good for orchestral. Makes it easy to hear applied reverb and details I was missing before.

If I didn't have these, I'd buy them, but if that's not an option I would also look at the Barefeats and Geithhains.


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## Vin

wbacer said:


> Thanks for your recommendation. I have a pair of HD 800 cans. Love em, wide sound stage and for my head, extremely comfortable.



Nice! Then you don't have to worry much - they're great cans. I'd have them calibrated nonetheless, individual calibration is great, but this plugin is fantastic as well, especially with high end headphones.

Regarding Amphions, heard only good things about One15. They are passive, so they require an amp, though. You can't go wrong with Neumann or even Adam A77X if you want something bigger. I know that they get a lot of love from the trailer guys. I'd get a single Avantone and spend at least 50% mixing with it, no matter which nearfields you get.


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## mc_deli

Vin said:


> I'd get a pair of Neumann KH120as and a single Avantone MixCube. If you don't have a good pair of cans, get a pair of DT 880 Pro or HD600 or HD650, get them calibrated and you won't need anything else.



I think the KH120a needs a sub for orchestral and film work - and for EDM for that matter.
Another vote for the single Avantone and HD650 here


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## wbacer

Thanks to mc_deli, Vin, clisma, jamwerks, and everyone else that has responded. Lots of info to dig through but I knew that with everyone's shared expertise this would be the best place to start. Excellent community support.


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## jamwerks

The Amphions are the Two18's. Really breath taking. I see though that they have also some cheaper models. The engineer prefers them over the Barefoot's that he knows well. They are replacing a pair of PMC AML2's. Think they're a new brand, from Findland.

Also check out the Focal Trio6 BE's


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## wbacer

jamwerks said:


> The Amphions are the Two18's. Really breath taking. I see though that they have also some cheaper models. The engineer prefers them over the Barefoot's that he knows well. They are replacing a pair of PMC AML2's. Think they're a new brand, from Findland.
> 
> Also check out the Focal Trio6 BE's


Now that's interesting. muk recommended that I read through the over 100 page Gearslutz discussion where Audiovisjon tested a huge amount of speakers in his studio and wrote in depth about his experience. After months of testing, the Amphion Two18's were his top choice. Yes, they cost a bit more and since they are passive you also need to purchase a power amp and banana plug connectors but you get what you pay for. Luckily, a local store has a pair in their listening room so it looks like it's time to go give them a listen. Thank you so much for your feedback, much appreciated.


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## JohnG

The two best engineers I know use Dan Wallin signature series (passive) or the Neumann 5.1 setup. The Wallins perform best with very strong damping amplifiers, like the old Crown Studio Reference series (which are uh-may-zing).


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## muk

Actually, Audiovisjons top choice were the Geithain RL 944. But if I remember correctly Geithain, Amphion, and Neumann were all high up in his personal ranking.


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## wbacer

muk said:


> Actually, Audiovisjons top choice were the Geithain RL 944. But if I remember correctly Geithain, Amphion, and Neumann were all high up in his personal ranking.


Yes, you are correct. If I did my money conversion correctly the Geithain RL 944 are over $10k USD. Of course by the time you purchase a power amp to power the Amphions both are comparably priced. It sure would be nice to sit in a room where you could do a side by side comparison with the Amphions and some of his other top choices. Thanks again for the Gearslutz reference, it was a long read but I learned a lot.


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## Ashermusic

OK, i am going to say it, wouldn't be me if I didn't.

With the possible exception of a high end mastering engineer or someone scoring multi-milion dollar films like our esteemed member RCtec, nobody needs to spend $10,000 on a set of stereo speakers. 5.1? Closer but still no. Multiple sets of speakers? Maybe.

Spend $8,000 on a pair of Focal Trio6 Be if you must and give $2000 to charity.


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## wbacer

Thanks JohnG and Jay for jumping in. I'm finding studio monitors that are well into the six figure range. Really...??? There are a lot of charities out there that could benefit from that kind of contribution.


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## jamwerks

Looks like Amphions (a pair) One18 + Amp100 can be had for $3.5k. That might be all you need. FWIW, that's the upgrade I'm thinking about. I'm currently on Adam S2a's + Sub 10.


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## JohnG

I used to be skeptical, maybe even scornful of spending lots on monitoring. Until I did, and heard all I'd been missing. _Especially_ if your livelihood depends on electronic or mostly-electronic creations, hearing accurately is indispensable. 

But even if one's work will be replaced 100% with live players, in my case I have to win approval and that means an outstanding electronic demo. So either way I think if you can scrounge the $$ it's worth doing.

For me I think that ended up meaning a fairly big investment -- D/A conversion, speakers, amplifier, and cables (Mogami). Totally worth it.


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## Ashermusic

Some of the very best engineers I know, some whose names you might recognize, do not mix on $10,000 speakers 

Maybe on the whole chain, sure, but not the speakers alone. 

Just my opinion.


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## JohnG

You already said that, Jay.

I don't know who's insisting on $10k for speakers but at least one Real Famous Guy I have worked with uses them and his scores are magic. 

I think the key is to try to upgrade the whole chain -- speakers, converters, amplifier (if passive speakers) and cables. If you have one really weak link there you will not hear accurately. So if you have $50 cables and your conversion is also inexpensive, I'd probably look at those too when budgeting.


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## edhamilton

If you see a studio pic on the amphion site of their lineup next to ATC 150's - that's my old room.
Interesting speakers that I like a lot. One15's plus a cheap sub to pop on every now and then would be my rec from their lineup.
Anssi is the owner and a great dude.

I take issue with that whole thread on GS.
The OP made it seam like he was just on the hunt for new speakers when it turns out (after a few thousand posts), he's a dealer. By no coincidence he now sells geithein and amphion. 

Monitors are too personal to follow anecdotal comments from other engineers or forum posts.
Proof - pudding = you have to do some mixes on them and see where each speaker nudges you.

If your mixes are low midrange thin - amphion two18's will be too warm for you. If your mixes are usually low mid stuffy, they might be the perfect speaker for you.

ATC 25's, Neuman 310s, amphions, Barefoot 45s, genelec 8351s (the new 3 ways that sound nothing like the rest of the lineup) - are all worthy contenders.

final mixes are all that matters. Whichever gets you the best result.

Pick a dealer that's cool with demos and start mixing. Take a week off between speakers as its easy to lose perspective along the way when trying several new speakers.

My pick - ATC 25's if you like their mid dome (I do), Barefoot 45's if you like a 3 way but not a dome.
Amphion one15's if your mixes tend to be a bit harsh in the midrange and you don't need big volume in your room. Two15's if you need a bit more. Amphion one18's if your mixes tend to be a bit warm/stuffy in the low midrange. two18's are a bit warmer still, which works for some mixers, but not all for sure.

Genelec 8351's are the most phase coherent speaker of the bunch. Stunning positioning and they sound like a single point source.
But I don't think its worth stretching the $$ to get there.


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## Ashermusic

IMHO, far and away the most important factor is to know your speakers well. One of the best engineers I have ever worked with is Gary Lux. He used to bring some Westlake monitors to mix with everywhere and I could not find another good engineer in LA who liked those speakers. But all agreed that Gary did great mixes on them.


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## synthpunk

NS10M's. Just kidding 

Your very close to a pair of used Barefoots. You will be very happy and they will last a lifetime.


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## jamwerks

Not just mixing, also when composing, great speakers let you know what you really have. Totally changes what you do. Then there's also pleasure factor to take into account...


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## wbacer

When I decided to begin researching all of this, I knew that I'd run into multiple perspectives and options.

My current signal chain consists of an Apogee Symphony IO, mogami cables, a pair of Genelec 8050A monitors, JL Audio Fathom F1 112 sub and a Trinnov ST2 Pro with their room calibration mic. Appropriate room treatment is in place including bass traps, cloud, diffusers, etc. 

I was beginning to think that my Genelec 8050A monitors were becoming a bit dated so I decided to begin researching possible alternatives that may be better suited for orchestral midi mockups, which has brought me to this point. 
Thanks again to everyone for your input, lots to consider and a lot of listening to do.


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## babylonwaves

Ashermusic said:


> Spend $8,000 on a pair of Focal Trio6 Be if you must and give $2000 to charity.


the Trio6 BE you really should consider. they're great. but those are $5600 a pair, not $8k.


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## wbacer

babylonwaves said:


> the Trio6 BE you really should consider. they're great. but those are $5600 a pair, not $8k.


They are on my short list for comparative listening. Thanks for your feedback.


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## jamwerks

If you get to do any a/b testing, let us know what you think...


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## wbacer

jamwerks said:


> If you get to do any a/b testing, let us know what you think...


Will do. Since everyone has been willing to share their expertise, as soon as I can get out and do some a/b listening I'll report back. At least now I'll be able to walk in to a high end listening room with of list of informed choices as opposed to walking in cold and saying, "Duh, I don't know what would you suggest." and we all know where that can lead.


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## storyteller

I'm a big fan of Blue Sky's System One with Apogee D/A converters. Don't forget your converters or the best speakers will always sound just "meh." Also, HD650s when it comes to cans.


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## babylonwaves

whinecellar said:


> After around the $5-6k mark, there are FAR better places to throw money. Like your room itself.


I believe you should spend 50/50 on the room and the monitors. Another big issue is cheap monitor stands without proper isolation.


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## wbacer

aesthete said:


> NS10M's. Just kidding
> 
> Your very close to a pair of used Barefoots. You will be very happy and they will last a lifetime.


Which barefoot model do you prefer?


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## synthpunk

MM27's here. Also budget for good stands, they are insanely heavy and you will need to spend some time positioning. Some may call that room picky but once you dial them in it's magical (as with most monitors). I picked mine up used for $4500. The smaller ones are good as well, but not as deep.

If you need something a bit cheaper Dynaudio BM15A's or Neumann's are very good also.

Once you hear good monitors you will be hooked.



wbacer said:


> Which barefoot model do you prefer?


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## wbacer

aesthete said:


> MM27's here. Also budget for good stands, they are insanely heavy and you will need to spend some time positioning. Some may call that room picky but once you dial them in it's magical. I picked mine up used for $4500. The smaller ones are good as well, but not as deep.
> 
> If you need something a bit cheaper Dynaudio BM15A's or Neumann's are very good also.
> 
> Once you hear good monitors you will be hooked.


The barefoot's are on my short list. Hopefully I'll get a chance to go out and do some comparative listening soon. 
Thank you so much for your feedback.


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## synthpunk

Good luck and pick the ones that float your boat.



wbacer said:


> The barefoot's are on my short list. Hopefully I'll get a chance to go out and do some comparative listening soon.
> Thank you so much for your feedback.


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## BigImpactSound

It's also very important how the speakers and the acoustics interact...


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## passsacaglia

F o c a l ! 

Solo6be and above.

Period!


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## tack

passsacaglia said:


> F o c a l !


I have the CMS65 and _love_ them.

I have been fantasizing about the http://www.focal.com/canada/en/sm6/538-trio6-be.html (Trio6 Be) but it's just impossible to justify to myself: my room isn't treated yet, and in any case the layout of my room is somewhat dubious for that kind of monitor. Though the speaker placement is rather unconventional, the stereo image is sublime when I'm in the sweet spot (which I always am).


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## wbacer

tack said:


> I have the CMS65 and _love_ them.
> 
> I have been fantasizing about the http://www.focal.com/canada/en/sm6/538-trio6-be.html (Trio6 Be) but it's just impossible to justify to myself: my room isn't treated yet, and in any case the layout of my room is somewhat dubious for that kind of monitor. Though the speaker placement is rather unconventional, the stereo image is sublime when I'm in the sweet spot (which I always am).


Good looking room, four monitors nice. Focals are on my short list. I listened to a pair of Trio6 Be's the other day, very impressive. Thanks tack and passsacaglia for your feedback.


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## tack

wbacer said:


> Good looking room, four monitors nice.


Four monitors _was_ nice. 

I've since made some changes. I replaced my main center monitor with a 34" ultrawide, which I wall mounted to give space underneath the display for my keyboard. This gives me way more real-estate on my primary display (and, not accidentally, provides more immersive gaming), but due to the added space constraints on either side, I now have only one flank display, on my right. The left is bare.

The asymmetry tweaks my OCD nerves but overall it's a big improvement.

The real pain point for me now is acoustic treatment. The corner desk layout of my room is awkward in this regard, and also all those displays provides a giant reflective surface for my speakers. It still sounds great, but I know it can sound much better.


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## passsacaglia

No worries!
Tack, oh yes they are damn good too!
Stereo image is great, spec thanks to the inverted dome tweeter. Also I believe the Berylium make difference.
I think all 3 haz it, Solo, twin, trio.

You could always go 2 tops like Solo6 and go for a nice sub oppa EDM style. No but, I think that would be a great build. Once u go Focal u never go back. Altho it doesn't rhyme itz trueh braw.

ps What a cool setup, light and everything!! What DAW is that?!


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## tack

passsacaglia said:


> ps What a cool setup, light and everything!! What DAW is that?!


Thanks.  Lighting courtesy of Philips Hue. DAW is Reaper (with a modified WT Imperial theme).

Agreed about Focal. I am so happy with my CMS65 that I don't see myself wanting to chance any other brands.


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## clisma

Not to knock the focals in any way: we own CMS50s and Twins at my composer's studio and like them a lot. But privately, I went with Neumann's, and, well...


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## gjelul

Focal SM9 here -- very happy!


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## olajideparis

Love the Dynaudio BM6as. Though I think they have replaced those with something else now.


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## babylonwaves

wbacer said:


> Focals are on my short list. I listened to a pair of Trio6 Be's the other day, very impressive.


The Trio6 Be's are incredible. I'm very happy that i've upgraded to those. I had smaller Focals before and I must admit that I didn't think that the difference in between the solos/twins and the trios would be that big. I was recently comparing the Trios with a pair of ATC SCM25A and the owner and me agreed that the Trios are different but not inferior.


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## tack

babylonwaves said:


> I had smaller Focals before


Which ones?

I confess after my previous post I have begun contemplating a complete overhaul of my room, moving away from the corner desk to a more conventional layout, allowing for proper speaker placement and acoustic treatment, and an 88 key controller, which will pave the road to something like the Trio6 Be. I now begin to question my sanity.


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## babylonwaves

tack said:


> Which ones?


Solo6 BE + CMS Sub. The Twins I had for comparison and they sounded very similar. I believe the speakers aside, having no subwoofer anymore did help as well. my room is acoustically treated but it is small and the low end is certainly not linear. i did a lot of experimenting and to be honest i never found a position for the sub that sounded totally "right". The Trios, in comparison, felt instantly right. PM me if you need more details


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## synthpunk

Tack, you should really get those monitors out in front of you for optimum stereo image.



tack said:


> Which ones?
> 
> I confess after my previous post I have begun contemplating a complete overhaul of my room, moving away from the corner desk to a more conventional layout, allowing for proper speaker placement and acoustic treatment, and an 88 key controller, which will pave the road to something like the Trio6 Be. I now begin to question my sanity.


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## Flux

So I'm going to be looking into monitors in the coming months, but my budget will be around $500-$700. At the moment I only have my ATH-M50X headphones for mixing. Would you guys find it beneficial for me to invest in studio monitors if that is my budget, or should I hold off until I have more to spend?


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## passsacaglia

Flux said:


> So I'm going to be looking into monitors in the coming months, but my budget will be around $500-$700. At the moment I only have my ATH-M50X headphones for mixing. Would you guys find it beneficial for me to invest in studio monitors if that is my budget, or should I hold off until I have more to spend?


Each or total? Total = hold off so you have more to spend, ofc.
Speaking of Focals..again...I'd say at least the CMS65 of Alpha 60's for minimum.
Altho I have the Alpha 50's and am super amazed and happy. 
To me the Alphas sounds "bigger", a more fuller bass and low end, had CMS which are super great and super clean but for all this classical music I liked the Alphas more and, the Alpha 65's would be a Really good deal with that little extra low end. CMS would to me be like a large but anorectic Brachiosaurus and Alpha's more like a T-rex, somehow haha! But Tack has the CMS65 near and can maybe give a good input!

Then maybe next step would be the Solo6be's - > Twins, Trios. Solo6 could in time be affordable with a little wait a couple of months.


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## MarcelM

anyone on a budget i can recommend the jbl 305 or 308. cannot be beaten for the price, and you will only find good things about them if you google around.


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## Ashermusic

Heroix said:


> anyone on a budget i can recommend the jbl 305 or 308. cannot be beaten for the price, and you will only find good things about them if you google around.



JBLs are almost always at a minimum pretty flat and accurate.


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## Flux

passsacaglia said:


> Each or total? Total = hold off so you have more to spend, ofc.



Let's say hypothetically I have to get something with $700 total, what would be some decent recommendations? Obviously it's not ideal, but that may be my only option for awhile.

The jbl 308's look alright. I know people who use the KRK rokits, but they are producing edm and less orchestrated stuff.


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## synthpunk

Best bang for the buck those JBL, next favorite Dynaudio. You will need a little more for BM5A, but BM6A's are my favorite next step up. You could also look used from a reputable seller/dealer.

You will not find a better deal than those JBLs's mentioned above.

Dynaudio/Neumann next step up.



Flux said:


> Let's say hypothetically I have to get something with $700 total, what would be some decent recommendations? Obviously it's not ideal, but that may be my only option for awhile.





Ashermusic said:


> JBLs are almost always at a minimum pretty flat and accurate.


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## Flux

aesthete said:


> Best bang for the buck those JBL, next favorite Dynaudio. You will need a little more for BM5A, but BM6A's are my favorite next step up. You could also look used from a reputable seller/dealer.
> 
> You will not find a better deal than those JBLs's mentioned above.
> 
> Dynaudio/Neumann next step up.



Thank you for the helpful info. I will definitely look into all of those mentioned in the coming days.


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## passsacaglia

JBL sounds really good too, yes I will agree on that!
305s or 308s, Focal Alpha 50's or 65's, I'd say for KRK the VXT range is amazing (a little more pricier tho), Rokit sound boxy but the 6" is much better tho and comparable to Focal Alpha's.
Any gear store near you?


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## MarcelM

while we are at this. i dont have good headphones and use my teufel aureol real for now to check.

so while the jbl are the best bang for the buck studio montiors. what are the best bang for the buck headphones then?

thx in advance


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## passsacaglia

ps. useful soundcloud link I found a while ago before I bought my Alpha's. Altho no Focals but some nice tests.
Since you have the ATH's you'd find this test good since you can decide your own if you don't have any store near you. Also if you can order the Isoacoustic stands, those are the Best isolation stands on the planet.

Link to playlist of "all" studio monitors in Sonicsense stock.
soundcloud.com/sonic-sense-pro-audio/sets/studio-monitors


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## Flux

passsacaglia said:


> JBL sounds really good too, yes I will agree on that!
> 305s or 308s, Focal Alpha 50's or 65's, I'd say for KRK the VXT range is amazing (a little more pricier tho), Rokit sound boxy but the 6" is much better tho and comparable to Focal Alpha's.
> Any gear store near you?



I have a Guitar Center and a Sam Ash near me thankfully!


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## synthpunk

Audio Technica ATM50's. But some may prefer Beyer, or Sennheiser, etc. Try to listen to them and pick the one's your ears like the best.



Heroix said:


> while we are at this. i dont have good headphones and use my teufel aureol real for now to check.
> 
> so while the jbl are the best bang for the buck studio montiors. what are the best bang for the buck headphones then?
> 
> thx in advance


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## Nick Batzdorf

Apologies if someone else has already said this, but the fact that this thread's gone on four pages is all you need to know: people have different opinions about monitors, and there's more than one good choice!

Having said that, I'm very happy with my Blue Sky System Ones + UREI 809As as a very different reference.


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## tack

aesthete said:


> Tack, you should really get those monitors out in front of you for optimum stereo image.


Well, you say that, and that _is _the conventional wisdom of course, but I don't honestly know if the stereo image can get any better. It is _really_ good. I've tried angling the speakers and sliding my chair back to form a more conventional equilateral triangle and it must be said, the stereo image isn't as good.

Although is "good" correct? I can't be sure.

With the speakers as arranged, I have a tremendous sense of depth and particularly height. Some instruments I hear directly in front of me, some I hear floating 3 or 4 feet above me. It's a pretty compelling enveloping sound. In the standard equilateral triangle configuration, the height collapses considerably.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Which JBLs, Mr. Jay?

Over the years they've made some very good speakers and some very meh speakers.


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## Nick Batzdorf

^ Mostly good, but I'd be afraid to trust any speaker just because of its name.


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## synthpunk

These ones Nick.
http://noaudiophile.com/JBL_LSR308/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/speaker-reviews/jbl-lsr305-review/



Nick Batzdorf said:


> ^ Mostly good, but I'd be afraid to trust any speaker just because of its name.


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## Ashermusic

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Which JBLs, Mr. Jay?
> 
> Over the years they've made some very good speakers and some very meh speakers.



But I never heard any that I did not consider flat and accurate, except in the very low end of their product line and these days, even those they are making are better IMO than let's say KRK or M-Audio, both of which I don't trust to be flat and accurate, despite what their literature says.

But it is subjective and you are more knowledgeable about this area than me.


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## synthpunk

Olafur Arnalds has some good thoughts on monitors here.


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## jamwerks

tack said:


> In the standard equilateral triangle configuration, the height collapses considerably.


That sounds suspiciously like a reflection problem?...


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## Nick Batzdorf

I haven't heard the 305 or 308, aesthete.

Jay, this was almost 20 years ago - which is why I'm being blunt - but I wrote a powered monitor round-up when I was at Recording magazine. We (that is, I and two professional engineers) pointed out the serious flaws in the JBL LSR28p. I almost lost my job over the fallout! They were designed by Floyd Toole so they just had to be good, JBL threatened to pull their advertising... it got ugly. 

For years the most famous JBL was the L100 Century, which I think became the 4310. That was going all the way back to the '60s. They're very good speakers, but you probably wouldn't call them flat or accurate. Still, there was a reason JBL sold so many of them: they sound good!

Now, my UREI 809As are of Altec heritage even though they were a JBL product (they're smaller versions of the famous 813s found in every studio in the '80s). I love them to pieces; while they have horn drivers (kinda harsh) and are designed to be soffit-mounted - which I've sort of simulated - I don't know that flat and accurate are the right words for them either.

Anyway, the point is that even with companies whose speakers share sound characteristics, like Dynaudio, "accurate" is a difficult word in my opinion. I put Dynaudios in the same category as speakers like the Genelecs, Mackie HR828s (the first ones they made), and some others: they have a "boxy" sound, probably due to the inherent dynamic compression when you put drivers in a small box!

That's not a dis, because obviously Dynaudio speakers are very good. But they have a very different sound from, say, dry speakers like the Tannoy PBM 8s were. Very different. Which one is "accurate?" (By the way, the powered Tannoys in those days were just awful; their passive ones were very good.)

Okay, I'm starting to ramble.


----------



## tack

jamwerks said:


> That sounds suspiciously like a reflection problem?...


Well, it could be. My room isn't horrible, but it's not treated, and there is some degree of flutter echo that treatment would help with.

But I think the point worth underlining is how good the stereo image is with this unconventional speaker placement. To my mind, it casts doubt on the importance of the equilateral triangle mantra.


----------



## wbacer

tack said:


> Well, it could be. My room isn't horrible, but it's not treated, and there is some degree of flutter echo that treatment would help with.
> 
> But I think the point worth underlining is how good the stereo image is with this unconventional speaker placement. To my mind, it casts doubt on the importance of the equilateral triangle mantra.


If your setup is working for you, then go with it.


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## dannymc

OP as someone who was in your position pretty recently the best advice i can give you is use your ears and let them decide. i read a million reviews on different monitors but none of it is worth a shit until you sit down in the triangular position between two units preferably in a treated room. also try A-B as many sets as you can try out and see which units work for your ears. and lastly go for a honest monitor that reveals everything not one that colors frequencies. 

Danny


----------



## synthpunk

me neither until last year, there quite under the radar, but also quite a enigma as I have not met anyone who hates them.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> I haven't heard the 305 or 308, aesthete.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> there is some degree of flutter echo that treatment would help with



If you point your speakers toward you, it's pretty near impossible for them to excite flutter echoes - even with your setup in a corner.

I assume you don't have a lot of space. So if that were my room I'd figure out a way to place them above the smaller monitors pointing down toward my ears, and I'd build absorbent frames around them to stop bounces from the rear.


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## jamwerks

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So if that were my room I'd figure out a way to place them above the smaller monitors pointing down toward my ears, and I'd build absorbent frames around them to stop bounces from the rear.


Was thinking the same thing! The equal lateral triangle in the industry base, I wouldn't dream of doing something different....


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## Nick Batzdorf

Well, I believe in an isosceles triangle - you want to be in the middle between your speakers - but equilateral is just a good starting point in my opinion. The distance and width are somewhat variable, depending on the room, the speakers, and your preference.

That doesn't mean you won't get a hole in the middle if the speakers are too far apart, etc., just that there's no scientific reason to assume the best listening distance is automatically the same as the distance between the monitors.


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## kfirpr

I'm on the same upgrade path myself.
I have the Dynaudio bm compact 5", which is nice but it's difficult for me to get a clear balanced image mainly with trailer and orchestral rock. for rock and metal they very good.
Thinking about getting ADAM A7X or even Quested S7R. I'm in a small but treated room .


----------



## tack

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I assume you don't have a lot of space. So if that were my room I'd figure out a way to place them above the smaller monitors pointing down toward my ears, and I'd build absorbent frames around them to stop bounces from the rear.


It's a modestly sized bedroom. I've been mulling it over for quite some time, and decided to revamp my setup. I'm going to replace my desk from a corner desk to a conventional rectangular desk. I imagine I will keep with wide speaker positions -- if for no other reason than to accommodate the fact that a triple display setup is wide and obviously it does no good to run a speaker behind a display -- and then get some acoustic treatment up on the walls. 

Also, usefully, moving away from that corner setup means I'll no longer be constrained to a 61 key controller.

So that'll be my summer project. I've already started placing orders.


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## Nick Batzdorf

If you can move farther back from the wall, that would also be good. But once again, I'd suggest putting the speakers above your smaller monitors, whether you attach them to the walls, put them on stands, or even suspend them from the ceiling; somehow you probably want to put your speakers where they sound best rather than how you have them now.

And there are actual white coat reasons not to set speakers up the way you have them now.

Be sure to put your absorption on the front walls, absolutely not on the sides! (That's an argument I've had here many times. Whether or not I won it, I really am right!  )


----------



## tack

Nick Batzdorf said:


> somehow you probably want to put your speakers where they sound best rather than how you have them now.


They sound pretty damn good now. Actually my main concern about doing this project is that I will actually _lose_ quality.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> And there are actual white coat reasons not to set speakers up the way you have them now.


Quite curious about those reasons. I have a propeller hat too. 

The most obvious one is that it narrows the sweet spot and shifts of my head position can substantially alter the stereo image. But that's not entirely untrue of the conventional triangular placement strategy either.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Be sure to put your absorption on the front walls, absolutely not on the sides! (That's an argument I've had here many times. Whether or not I won it, I really am right!  )


I'm not necessarily going to argue with you, but why is that so important? Aren't the side walls going to be first reflection points?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I try to get out and they keep dragging me back in! 

This is a link to an interview I did with my friend Dave Moulton years and years ago:

http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/nick_batzdorf_interview/


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## tack

BTW does anyone here have the Trio6 Be and can comment on their experiences?

I am so enamoured with my CMS65 that I want to stay with Focal, and also because they are quite easy for me to source in my location, and I don't appear to be absurdly overpaying due to the unforgivable sin of my being Canadian, unlike with some other speaker manufacturers.

The only question is whether I could sanely justify the substantial cost. (I mean, I can afford them, but they aren't exactly in impulse buy territory.) My room is relatively small and I don't need a lot of volume, but I am looking for the extended bass and do very much like the versatility of the two- vs three-way modes. Also they are sexy as hell.


----------



## Softmo06004

My favorite monitors: Prosodia Zephyr Pro Studio...just amazing. Focal SM9 and Amphion Two 18


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## passsacaglia

Googled some 3 way and actually found these, cnet review was good and overall seems really good lows and clear treble and highs. In future I'd buy the Solo6be which all my friends are so found of..but yes 2way. But these ones..hmm..tempted! There are more reviews also on GZ.

http://www.cnet.com/news/shock-and-awe-the-m-audio-m3-8-speakers/


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## Tanuj Tiku

Try to get monitors which are more or less flat. This may seem underwhelming at first because we are mostly used to hyped sound. But within a few days, you will most likely love the sound. 

It will allow you to work longer and ears will feel better. Of course, best way to know is to audition them in your room if you don't have perfect acoustic conditions. 

Stay well clear from a sub, creates more problems than it solves IMHO. Also, try and make sure the speakers are a decent size. 

It is very important that the speakers be reasonably able to recreate natural instrument volumes. Smaller speakers, just can't - physics! Specially, the LF cones need to be larger and so do the cabinets to create that sound and the cones need to move quite a bit to produce the lower frequencies which is practically impossible on many smaller monitors. 

Good luck with your choice and enjoy!


----------



## CACKLAND

Genelec 8050B 
Barefoot Series (If you want to plurge)


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## rgarber

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Try to get monitors which are more or less flat. This may seem underwhelming at first because we are mostly used to hyped sound. But within a few days, you will most likely love the sound.



I just wanted to shout an amen to this the part where Tanuj write about the sound from flat monitors is underwhelming. Some time ago I purchased Neuman KH 120's (I think that's what they are) and they were relatively new on the market then so there wasn't much written about them, but I figured if they make such good microphones they probably make a good studio monitor. So they arrived and my mixing motto (and I'm relatively new to mixing folks and by no means consider myself knowledgeable on the subject) became after listening to the 'dullness' was "my goal is to make my music sound good on these things, if I've done that, I got a good mix." I was using M-audio BX8's (the original versions) at the time and I loved the sound of those things. It took me a long time to adjust to the Neuman's and to understand the whole 'flat' response thing and why that's preferred. Now I mix and even create my music exclusively on the Neuman's. Once you get that 'excitement' out of your ears, mixing becomes a whole new ball game and I think it's easier to do. I also use Behringer's real nice studio headphones to help out in mixing for troublesome areas. - Rich


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## wbacer

Since starting this thread back in June and over the last six weeks there has been an overwhelming response regarding monitor suggestions for orchestral mockups. Thank you to everyone who responded and shared their experience and expertise.

I live in the LA area and was able to make a trip out to Vintage King’s LA store.
They have an acoustically treated high end listening room with a great choice of studio monitors. I was able to do a side by side comparison of quite a few of the monitors that were suggested in this thread.

Since monitors are such an important component that make up a home studio, I wanted to explore as many options as possible regardless of price. Before making a decision I wanted to know, what will approximately $1000, $2000, $5000, $10,000, $20,000 buy so I listened to monitors within in a given price range then compared them between price ranges. I realize how monitors sound depend on the size and shape of your studio and how that room is acoustically treated but you have to start somewhere. And yes, I’m a little OCD but it in the long run it pays to do your homework. I listened to variety of musical styles but mostly to a lot of John Williams cues.

Here is a list of the monitors that I was able to listen to.

Focal Alpha 80 - $549 each
Neumann KH120 – $700 each
Adam A7X - $749 each

Focal Solo 6 Be $1,350 each
Focal Twin6 - $1,850 each

Neumann KH310A - $2,249.50 each
PMC TwoTwo.6 - $5,000 pair
Focal Trio6 Be - $2,795 each

Barefoot MM45 MICROMAIN45 – $5,995 pair
Amphion Two18 $3,000 each
Focal SM9 - $3,795 each
PMC TwoTwo.8 - $8,000 pair
Genelec 8351A - $3,875 each
Barefoot MICROMAIN35 GEN2 - $8,275 pair

Barefoot MICROMAIN27 GEN2 - $10,495.00 pair
ATC scm 45A Pro - $11,490 pair
PMC IBIS-AIII - $12,000 pair
Barefoot MICROMAIN26 - $12,495 pair

Barefoot MINIMAIN12 - $22,025 pair

There was not a bad monitor in the lot and as expected as the sound quality increased so did the price. I really liked the flat response of the Barefoots. If you ever get a chance to listen to the Barefoot Minimain 12’s, you’re in for a real treat. You get what you pay for. Most of the monitors I listened to are out of my price range but it was good to listen to a wide range of possibilities. No final decision yet. To be continued…


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## tack

wbacer said:


> Here is a list of the monitors that I was able to listen to.


This is a tremendous list. Please, even if it's just transcribing barely legible chicken scratch, share your notes. At least for the monitors under $10K per pair, anyway.


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## wbacer

tack said:


> This is a tremendous list. Please, even if it's just transcribing barely legible chicken scratch, share your notes. At least for the monitors under $10K per pair, anyway.



First of all, this is just one reporter’s opinion, your mileage may vary.
I’m not by any means an expert sound engineer but I do know what I liked.
Those of you with more experience / expertise, please chime in.

As Tanuj Tiku stated in this thread, “It is very important that the speakers be reasonably able to recreate natural instrument volumes. Smaller speakers, just can't - physics!” As you’re aware, as the price goes up, the monitors get bigger and the size and number of speakers increase.
In doing a side by side comparison, at least for me, I realized that the smaller, less expensive monitors are in a different category and are priced accordingly.

The way the room is set up at Vintage King, you can only A, B, C three pairs of monitors at any one given time then they have to reconfigure the cabling so that you can listen to another three pairs. I narrowed the list down to these categories.

$4,000 to $6,000 price range
Neumann KH310A - $2249.50 each
Focal Trio6 Be - $5,590 Pair
Barefoot MICROMAIN45 – $5,995 Pair
Here the Barefoots sounded the best, very smooth and balanced

$6,000 to $8,000 price range
Focal SM9 - $7,590 Pair
TwoTwo.8 - $8000 pair
After listening to the Barefoots, these monitors didn’t sound as balanced or natural sounding.

$10,000 to $12,000 price range
ATC scm 45A Pro - $11,490 pair
Barefoot MICROMAIN27 GEN2 - $10,495.00 Pair
Barefoot MICROMAIN26 - $12,495 Pair
The Barefoot MICROMAIN26 sounded the best in this category.

$20,000 price range
Barefoot MINIMAIN12 - $22,025 Pair
If I were rich and money wasn’t an issue, I’d be listening to these bad boys right now.

For me the Barefoots sounded the best in each price range and I never even heard of Barefoot monitors until someone recommended them in this thread.

One interesting thing about the Barefoot 26’s, 27’s and 12’s, they all have a small external box with a 4 setting rotary dial. It plugs into the monitors so that you can change the monitor’s frequency response.

Hi-Fi – Highs are accentuated, midrange is scooped and the bass has a tighter sound
I thought this was the most musical setting.

Flat – Due to the flatness, this setting sounded a bit harsh.

Old School – NS10M emulation, if you like that sound

Cube – Classic sound of the small cube monitors




The MM45’s didn’t have this feature but sounded more like the HI-Fi setting on the other Barefoots.
Thomas Barefoot stated in one of his YouTube videos that some people set their Barefoots on Hi-Fi and leave it there. Others set it on Flat and leave it there. In trying to get the best mix, others listen to all four modes.
Why the Hi-Fi setting sounded better to me than the flat setting, I don’t know, it just did. Maybe someone else can chime in and share their perspective.

Anyway, if you’re in the market for a pair of monitors, I hope this helps.


----------



## tack

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts, wbacer. I envy your ability to audition such a considerable range. I can only find one Barefoot distributor in Canada and it's an 8 hour drive away :/


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## wbacer

tack said:


> Many thanks for sharing your thoughts, wbacer. I envy your ability to audition such a considerable range. I can only find one Barefoot distributor in Canada and it's an 8 hour drive away :/


Hey Tack, I read that you are thinking about redoing part of your studio and possibly getting new monitors. If you can find a nice Canadian Summer day, it may be worth the drive. I though the Barefoots sounded that good. A good friend of mine just put new monitors in his studio, now he is kicking himself that he didn't go with the Barefoots. Or maybe the Canadian dealer will ship you a pair and let you try them out and if you don't like them, you can send them back and try something else. I know Vintage King will do that locally but now sure if they will extend that to Canada, you can always ask.


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## Hywel

I know studio monitors are supposed to have a flat frequency response and that domestic speakers (good ones that is) sweeten various parts of the spectrum.

I've never really grasped the reason for this difference.

It seems to me that domestic speakers should be as flat as possible as well, but that "end users" should be able to adjust their tone controls or graphic equalisers or whatever frequency shaping tools their system has to their individual listening tastes.

I may be talking rubbish here but does anybody have a few sentences of an explanation for me?


----------



## synthpunk

Some Audiophiles want to hear sweet sounds, not flat frequency response on a graph. It's what makes the world interesting, makes McIntosh McIntosh, B&W B&W. Perhaps it is related to why cavemen painted on the cave walls.



Hywel said:


> I know studio monitors are supposed to have a flat frequency response and that domestic speakers (good ones that is) sweeten various parts of the spectrum.
> 
> I've never really grasped the reason for this difference.
> 
> It seems to me that domestic speakers should be as flat as possible as well, but that "end users" should be able to adjust their tone controls or graphic equalisers or whatever frequency shaping tools their system has to their individual listening tastes.
> 
> I may be talking rubbish here but does anybody have a few sentences of an explanation for me?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The reason you want flat monitors is to avoid imprinting your mix with the inverse curve of your speakers. Living room speakers can have a little extra bottom and top to sound good.

But there's more to good studio monitors than not having obvious frequency response lumps.


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## Hywel

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The reason you want flat monitors is to avoid imprinting your mix with the inverse curve of your speakers. Living room speakers can have a little extra bottom and top to sound good.



Thanks for that Neil.

I must confess I still find it a little incongruous that the mixing or mastering engineer (or hopefully combination of both) may be perfectly happy with the sound of a finished track on their studio monitors but because they know it will be listened to on a domestic system, will they then have to roll off a little of the top end and the bottom end so that it doesn't sound "too sweetened", or is the difference so subtle that it isn't necessary?

There seems to be an inherent area of vagueness and incongruity (sorry to use that word again but it's the best I can find to explain how I feel about this aspect) of the music production process.

Hywel


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## Nick Batzdorf

That's not something I've ever heard a mixing or mastering engineer do or say, Hywel.


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## Tfis

Hywel said:


> There seems to be an inherent area of vagueness and incongruity (sorry to use that word again but it's the best I can find to explain how I feel about this aspect) of the music production process.
> 
> Hywel



There's nothing vague or incongruent. If you want to avoid mixing errors, phasing issues, etc. it's necessary to use monitors which sound as neutral as possible. Otherwise "good sounding" speakers could cover a lot of detail. A good mix sounds good with studio monitors. A bad mix sounds bad. But a bad mix can sound good on some home loudspeakers. Using neutral monitors is the "smallest denominator". 

It's like calibrating your screen to show the correct colors. It might not look nice, but true.


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## mc_deli

Hywel said:


> There seems to be an inherent area of vagueness and incongruity of the music production process.
> 
> Hywel


People who mix professionally, listen to their mixes on a variety of systems e.g. mains, nearfields, grotboxes, in-car, PC speakers, earbuds etc. And they compare constantly with reference tracks. They are specifically tasked with overcoming the vagueness and incongruity.
People who master professionally listen on extremely revealing hi-fidelity systems. They also constantly compare with reference tracks. They are also specifically tasked with overcoming the vagueness and incongruity.
At least, that's how I see it


----------



## whinecellar

Wondering if anyone's had any time on the new ADAM S3H and/or the ATC SCM45a? 3 of the guys I work with have ATC SCM50's and while I never would have imagined spending that kind of money on monitors, I will say they've got me really thinking about it - hearing that kind of detail is addictive and ultimately time-saving if you end up mixing faster.

I've loved my ADAM A7s with NHT subs for a decade, but I'm itching to go to the next level... just curious!


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## muk

For those looking for a decent entry-level solution, check out the Micca MB42X. These are cheap speakers 
(90$ for the pair!) that apparently don't suck, and that's something that rarely goes together. Out of the box they seem to be slightly coloured. +- 3db between 400Hz and 20kHz is very respectable though, and not only for that price. They seem to respond very well to dsp correction as well. Here is a good review that even provides filter curves for the Miccas:

http://noaudiophile.com/Micca_MB42x_Bookshelf_Speakers/

If you are starting out and/or on a tight budget, these should be a good choice. I'm ordering some for a surround setup.


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## chimuelo

Dynaudio AIR 15s are on my short list.


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## Tiko

Can't recommend Amphions enough. Simply amazing.


----------



## whinecellar

Update on my own little quest, for whatever it's worth: after mastering my last project on ATC SCM50s (newest version), it gave me the itch to upgrade my monitoring system; the latest crop of higher-end monitors definitely reveal details you aren't going to hear on lesser systems.

So, I've been spending a lot of time evaluating the higher-end models from ADAM, ATC, Barefoot, Amphion, Focal, PMC, etc. I've really come to love that famous ATC midrange, but I also really like the almost forensic detail you get from ADAM's tweeter - especially the latest S Series. None of the other brands, although really nice, made the cut for me *in my room.* It came down to ATC SCM20 ASL mkII and ADAM S3H, both with my stereo mastering subs from NHT.

I really thought the ATCs had it; they sound absolutely gorgeous yet they reveal almost everything that's wrong with a mix. However, once I really set everything up properly and calibrated for an accurate A/B test, the ADAMs knocked it out of the park. Their new midrange gives me the spacious and revealing midrange vibe of an ATC, but their new tweeter is a big step up. I've never heard this level of detail on any other monitor less than $12k, and they do that without being harsh or fatiguing at all. The biggest win came when I went through a list of commercial tracks (as well as my own), listening for details that are hard to hear. The S3H revealed these details in a way I haven't heard elsewhere in this price range; they either came across kind of blurred/unfocused on the ATCs, or not at all. The separation of elements in a mix is extraordinary on the ADAMs.

So for my studio, the clear winner was the ADAM S3H. Absolutely remarkable. Now if I could spend more, the next level up would be PMC's new IB1S AIII; those had my jaw on the floor. I've never heard anything better, at any price, other than their REALLY high end mastering speakers - those were absolutely breathtaking. Until then, the ADAMs are as good as I've heard for mere mortals...


----------



## Daisser

tack said:


> I have the CMS65 and _love_ them.
> 
> I have been fantasizing about the http://www.focal.com/canada/en/sm6/538-trio6-be.html (Trio6 Be) but it's just impossible to justify to myself: my room isn't treated yet, and in any case the layout of my room is somewhat dubious for that kind of monitor. Though the speaker placement is rather unconventional, the stereo image is sublime when I'm in the sweet spot (which I always am).



I have a forced corner setup myself and I've been hesistent to buy better monitors because I've heard that many of the good ones mentioned on this thread deal badly with corner setups (esp in bass). I've tried basic treatment (corners, stuff around the room, carpet) but the only thing that gets me in the ballpark of good sound is using ARC 2. And my setup is a true corner direct. I use a HS5s w/sub. Obviously you managed to get around this, thoughts?

I also have 3 wide monitors and use to have a layout similar to yours but when I was reading about room setups, I felt I was breaking equilateral triangle rule (I'd be sitting 5 feet from my table). I put the monitors between the "winged" monitors and created the perfect triangle but probably introduced other issues. I'm sure you went though all this yourself, so I'm curious as to your thinking as well.

I want to buy SC205s and Sam Ash will give me a good deal but only refundable via credit. I'd hate to spend a grand just too have physics laugh at me and give me crap sound.


----------



## gjelul

Room treatment should come first. No point in looking into monitors if te room is not treated well.
I do recommend the Focal SM9.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Corner setups aren't ideal, but you can make them work.

"Room treatment" posts always bother me, frankly - not because acoustics aren't really important, but because the concept feels a little inside-out.

For a standard composer's room, to me the sensible approach is to get really good speakers, and then deal with problems *if* you hear them. You can create far more damage than good by sticking up "acoustic treatment" without knowing what you're doing, and without a specific goal in mind.

By "composer's room" I mean "as opposed to calling in the architects and acousticians to design a room from the ground up."


----------



## tack

My room is treated now, and the layout is much more conventional than it was when I first wrote the above quoted. (Looks like I updated the photo at the same link with the new space. Probably shouldn't have done that. This was the old photo showing the corner layout.)

I'm actually considering the Focal Shape 65 as a modest upgrade to my CMS65. The Trio6 were a nice fantasy but ultimately there was no rational argument to be made in their favor for my small space.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

tack said:


> My room is treated now, and the layout is much more conventional than it was when I first wrote the above quoted. (Looks like I updated the photo at the same link with the new space. Probably shouldn't have done that. This was the old photo showing the corner layout.)
> 
> I'm actually considering the Focal Shape 65 as a modest upgrade to my CMS65. The Trio6 were a nice fantasy but ultimately there was no rational argument to be made in their favor for my small space.



Wonderful setup! Love the lighting. Is that a glass of Scotch I see on the right?


----------



## tack

Wolfie2112 said:


> Is that a glass of Scotch I see on the right?


Quite right. Either Johnnie Walker Black or (more likely) Glendronach 12.


----------



## ctsai89

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Corner setups aren't ideal, but you can make them work.
> 
> "Room treatment" posts always bother me, frankly - not because acoustics aren't really important, but because the concept feels a little inside-out.
> 
> For a standard composer's room, to me the sensible approach is to get really good speakers, and then deal with problems *if* you hear them. You can create far more damage than good by sticking up "acoustic treatment" without knowing what you're doing, and without a specific goal in mind.
> 
> By "composer's room" I mean "as opposed to calling in the architects and acousticians to design a room from the ground up."



This is very true especially if you compose predominantly orchestral music especially using top libraries like Spitfire, Berlin, or CSS as most of its sounds are already done for us right out of the box.

For club music I'd recommend to have acoustic treatments at the first reflection spots plus bass traps. If the treatments/monitors aren't good enough, then you can also get the sonarworks plug in. Follow instructions to correct your room's EQ and use it on the master channel.


----------



## synergy543

Has anyone heard the new Dynaudio LYD 48? 
These might be a game-changer given Dynaudio's reputation and the amazing price.

3-Way 8-inch for $1149


----------



## g.c.

I just found this conversation. Won't reccommend a brand for you, but will reccommend that you find Mike Senior's Mixing for the small studio book and read what he has to say about the mixing problems incurred using Ported monitors before you make your purchase.
g.c.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> For club music I'd recommend to have acoustic treatments at the first reflection spots plus bass traps



Bass trapping is almost always good, but regular forum members who are now sick of my posting the same thing over and over know that I disagree with the "first reflection spots" conventional wisdom. Those side reflections are actually the ones that help you hear the speakers in your room properly so that you can localize the image!

And I'd argue that you really need to hear what's going on in your mixes with any kind of music, whether you're working with samples, live instruments, or both!

The good news is that making a room workable (as opposed to perfect) doesn't take as much doing as one might think.


----------



## ctsai89

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Bass trapping is almost always good, but regular forum members who are now sick of my posting the same thing over and over know that I disagree with the "first reflection spots" conventional wisdom. Those side reflections are actually the ones that help you hear the speakers in your room properly so that you can localize the image!
> 
> And I'd argue that you really need to hear what's going on in your mixes with any kind of music, whether you're working with samples, live instruments, or both!
> 
> The good news is that making a room workable (as opposed to perfect) doesn't take as much doing as one might think.



so what you're suggesting is basically besides bass trappin, don't foam anywhere else. Get a good pair of headphones for uncorrupted monitoring? 

Just wondering where you read/heard this or is it all your own experience?

I've honestly done much better with first reflections foamed up though. Recently took them off because they were black and making my room too dark for my eyes to see against my screen. Mixing trance/electronic basslines against the thumping and layering several hats/snares to it all sudden became harder. Took me about 3 days to get the right sound I wanted because the frequencies would sound so different at different volume levels. And it's summer, although the AC's not that loud, it does affect my mixing where I have to turn my speakers louder when it's on. Just saying I honestly did much better had an easier time with the first reflections foamed up. Are you by any chance saying I should have all the first reflections foamed up except for the sides?


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## Nick Batzdorf

I believe in getting rid of extra reverb at the front of the room.

This is a very old interview I did with audio guru Dave Moulton, when I was at Recording magazine (he doesn't say so, but it was in one of the issues). It explains what I'm saying.

http://www.moultonlabs.com/dave_more/nick_batzdorf_interview/

Also, I just posted a very old picture of my room. You can see the broadband absorption baffles are on the sides, but I have my speakers angled in so that the reflections aren't filtered. Again, it's an old picture - from 2005 - but I still have the same baffles up:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/diy-studio-desk-fight.63415/page-3


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## storyteller

Keep in mind your floor and ceiling material, as well as room height all play into it, too. I lean toward @Nick Batzdorf's philosophy. But I do believe (when possible) in treating the entire wall behind your monitors and DAW with 4" rock wool with at least some treatment on the rear wall too. But treatment on the back and sides is dependent on the materials of the room though. Ex: a plaster wall is going to absorb sound differently than drywall. Anyway, that's my $0.02 at least. 

Edit: Nick slipped his followup post in while I was typing this one. Looks like I agree with him all around on it then. Ha. Nice post though Nick.


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## ctsai89

storyteller said:


> Keep in mind your floor and ceiling material, as well as room height all play into it, too. I lean toward @Nick Batzdorf's philosophy. But I do believe (when possible) in treating the entire wall behind your monitors and DAW with 4" rock wool with at least some treatment on the rear wall too. But treatment on the back and sides is dependent on the materials of the room though. Ex: a plaster wall is going to absorb sound differently than drywall. Anyway, that's my $0.02 at least.
> 
> Edit: Nick slipped his followup post in while I was typing this one. Looks like I agree with him all around on it then. Ha. Nice post though Nick.



so treatments behind the wall: regarding that. Should that decision be dictated by whether your monitors have front ported bass ports or if they're on the back?


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## storyteller

ctsai89 said:


> so treatments behind the wall: regarding that. Should that decision be dictated by whether your monitors have front ported bass ports or if they're on the back?


Well, that's a bit of a loaded question. It all depends on your room honestly. The panels on the front wall are to treat the slap back reverb that occurs. Imagine shouting at a wall in front of you. Your voice kicks back, right? Well your speakers kick off all of the walls and return back to the wall in front of you. So you want to prevent a reflection back into your face. That adds unnecessary reverb and can muddy mixes.

But with rear ported monitors, you'll have to experiment a bit because the port is part of the overall sound the monitors are producing. Wish I could help you out more, but that is an added variable to it all and will affect the level of sound absorption you would want behind them directly, versus what is covering the whole wall.

And - just to clarify - I'm speaking about treating the front of your room in both posts (e.g. The wall you are staring at and the immediate curve around the monitors like in Nick's pic).


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## Tfis

ctsai89 said:


> so treatments behind the wall: regarding that. Should that decision be dictated by whether your monitors have front ported bass ports or if they're on the back?



No, it doesn't matter. -> SBIR


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## Nick Batzdorf

Rear-ported speakers usually want more distance from the wall than front-firing or acoustic suspension ones do.


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## Nick Batzdorf

g.c. wrote:



> read what he has to say about the mixing problems incurred using Ported monitors



Most speaker designers will say that acoustic suspension (no port) is a better way to go, but there are some really good speakers that have ports.

Not only that, there are some "bad" speakers that are very good in spite of having everything wrong with them. My big speakers - UREI 809As - are ported, they're horn-loaded, and they're in a bad position in my room out of practical necessity.

I love them!


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## synthpunk

Would love to compare them to the old venerable BM15a's.



synergy543 said:


> Has anyone heard the new Dynaudio LYD 48?
> These might be a game-changer given Dynaudio's reputation and the amazing price.
> 
> 3-Way 8-inch for $1149


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## higgs

Are those the BM-15 follow-up monitors?

I absolutely love my Focals, but I've had the BM-15s on a wishlist as a second monitor setup for a long time.


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