# Justice League



## Consona

What do you think?

Sound-wise it's rather far from what Zimmer/J XL did. They've created pretty coherent soundscape in MoS and BvS and now it starts to disintegrate. Seems like Elfman did not even try to sound close to the previous films. The sound palette and the whole production are very different.

Content wise, huh, he really used Williams' Superman theme from 1978. There goes your movie universe coherence again. MoS, BvS and JL are supposed to be a trilogy. I bet there will be Zimmer's Man of Steel theme somewhere in the movie but Williams' one is from a totally different universe.

I'm really curious how will this vintage style score work next to the epic modern superhero picture. I miss the over-processed sound full of pounding drums already.  It suited the visuals perfectly. This is the kind of a movie where you can go full rock and roll.

But I have to say, I like Elfman's rich harmonic vocabulary and the way he develops pieces. Even thought it does not sound like a DCEU thing, I like Frieds and Foes a lot.  I'm really looking forward to the rest of the score.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Consona said:


> What do you think?
> 
> Sound-wise it's rather far from what Zimmer/J XL did. They've created pretty coherent soundscape in MoS and BvS and now it starts to disintegrate. Seems like Elfman did not even try to sound close to the previous films. The sound palette and the whole production are very different.
> 
> Content wise, huh, he really used Williams' Superman theme from 1978. There goes your movie universe coherence again. MoS, BvS and JL are supposed to be a trilogy. I bet there will be Zimmer's Man of Steel theme somewhere in the movie but Williams' one is from a totally different universe.
> 
> I'm really curious how will this vintage style score work next to the epic modern superhero picture. I miss the over-processed sound full of pounding drums already.  It suited the visuals perfectly. This is the kind of a movie where you can go full rock and roll.
> 
> But I have to say, I like Elfman's rich harmonic vocabulary and the way he develops pieces. Even thought it does not sound like a DCEU thing, I like Frieds and Foes a lot.  I'm really looking forward to the rest of the score.




The sound and orchestration is nice and great executed. I like the Atmosphere. But honestly..I don´t like the theme at all. It misses for me the "theme". Where is it really..He wrote a bunch of notes going forth and back..reduce this piece to 2 hand Piano..and you have minus the orchestration a not coherent piece in my opinion. I am suprised how bad written this theme ist. Sorry to say, but that is my opinion on Dannys Work..a bit strange because I like his older works a lot. There is no red thread throughout the piece. When it would be underscore..allright..hit and miss but for a theme..this is tragically bad for my taste.


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## John Busby

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> tragically bad for my taste.


i wouldn't say tragically bad just yet, it may fit the picture perfectly
but on it's own it's not that memorable i would say, not compared to some of his previous work and next to Zimmer's MOS

edit: also, there's a copyright claim on "Friends and Foes" at least for me?


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## Consona

johnbusbymusic said:


> edit: also, there's a copyright claim on "Friends and Foes" at least for me?


It's not an official upload but it works fine for me.


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## gsilbers

damn, they just used brian tylers marvel stuff as temp.


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## Zhao Shen

Well, I'll start out by acknowledging that this is only one track out of a soundtrack with much more material.

However, given what we've heard so far... What the hell. I was pretty shocked by the hero's theme the first time I heard it. I don't even think they used Tyler/Jablonsky-ish music as temp, because this is worse than either composer's work. I expected a lot more from Elfman, especially since he already helped deliver a pretty unimpressive score for Age of Ultron.

As much as the music of BvS, Thor, Iron Man, Wonder Woman, and other heroes has been criticized, this is undoubtedly the worst hero music I have heard. Maybe I'm being harsh, but the inclusion of "theme" in the title of a piece with absolutely no memorable aspects is a bit worrying...


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## AdamKmusic

Should’ve kept JXL


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## Grizzlymv

:( ... Williams' Superman theme?... And then Elfman himself said he brought up his old Batman theme as well...what's happening?? They belong to a different world. Different style. The Superman in justice league (and man of steel and bvs) has nothing to do with Christopher Reeve's Superman... Same with Ben Affleck Batman. Nothing to do with the world and character of Michael Keaton's... Would probably have been different if JL would have been the first movie of this world, but Man of steel and BvS was there before and brought their own sound, themes and colors... I get the change of tone in JL but why throwing away it's theme for old ones that have nothing to do at all with this world? I mean musically it sounds good, although not memorable at all. But I really don't see the reasoning behind this. Would have taken the MOS theme revamped into elfman's color instead of that Williams theme... But that may just be me.. make me wondering what will happen with wonderwoman...will he bring the original one or the one we got in BvS and WW?... oh well. Kind of like doing world war 2 trilogy movies with saving Private Ryan music but in the last movie, change the score with The Rock themes instead...wouldn't work either...


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## NoamL

Jeez, without even reaching back to the golden age of movie superheroes... all you have to do is compare this to Elfman's own amazingly deft, exciting, brilliantly orchestrated and memorable Spider-Man scores of the early 00s. WTF is going on with the studios? Why even hire Elfman if you're going to instruct him to write those bramms like 3:12. He's a hundred times the composer this track makes him seem.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Oh lol..I did listen yesterday to the second track..not to the first..one..was a long day, so sorry. So my initial comment is aimed to the second track Now I am listening to the first one..

It is painfully to listen to it for me even more when I know that Elfman had written it.

I can understand that J Guy and HZ doing this style of music but why hiring an Elfman to do impressions of that style. I mean the theme will for sure fit this generic expensive, probably forgetable hollywood movie, so everything is done in the right way and so that theme even blows my expactations in terms of temptracking job. See that is a composer who knows how to do a job.

The previous movies did have such a musical language, so why changing it. Don´t get me wrong: For my personal taste I am long long sick & tired of that music style, but not to blame Elfman or that music style, he does what the shitty producer and fucktard studios tell him to do and when he want´s to get his paycheck, he better should do what they want. Even when he features his own themes he features it like it is coming from a modern epic multiple award winning composer. Mission accomplished.

IT is a bit ironic because elfman was the one who worked or sais something about this 1 Dollar scoring thing and there was a big discussion here if he should be more responsible. Anyhow, I guess now he thought: Okayyy lets make a bit more than one dollar with that music that he probably doesn´t like himself but why not. It is all business, right. I saw this coming, even in Dark Shadows he was struggling to do his style where you could already hear how hard he tries to be modern. And that was a Tim Burton collaboration.

So if you want to make a living in hollywood you better do that stuff because you can´t do what you like to do in the old days, it is also with him. He has to pay his big mansions in the hollywood hills, don´t forget that.


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## Consona

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I mean the theme will for sure fit this generic expensive, probably forgetable hollywood movie, so everything is done in the right way and so that theme even blows my expactations in terms of temptracking job.


Well to me both Man of Steel and Batman v Superman are some of the most outstanding CBMs I've ever seen, the opposite of that safe hollywood formula... you can actually see how divisive those movies are, Snyder takes risks and is punished for that. But I love his bold movies. 



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> For my personal taste I am long long sick & tired of that music style


The sound Zimmer created in MoS is far from the generic stuff other people do when they try to imitate him. He can make things fresh. MoS and BvS sounded different than his Batman stuff, which sounded different to his Spider-man stuff, etc.

Now Whedon is finishing Snyder's film, he replaced J XL with Elfman and I believe he has him word in bringing back the Superman theme that has nothing to do with this universe. Plus I don't think the rage against producers is justified since they let Elfman compose for this sequel to MoS and BvS in totally different manner than how those two films sounded. In a very classical manner which is close to him instead of pushing him to use Zimmer's sound and orchestration.


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## NoamL

Consona said:


> Well to me both Man of Steel and Batman v Superman are some of the most outstanding CBMs I've ever seen, the opposite of that safe hollywood formula...



In terms of the movies, or the scores? The movies I think have been pretty bad, missed the point of Superman and weren't as fun as MCU films... but the scores were really good. Even as a JW superfan I can't see bringing back JW's theme for this universe. HZ's themes get closer to expressing the idea of this incarnation of the character. There's a lot of bizarrely grim sci fi tone in these films and not much simple "Big Blue Boy Scout" optimism to the character. HZ's themes with constellations of ostinatos happening at different speeds fit into that mood. The new Batman theme also expresses what this Batman's all about. He's grim, he's fucking incapable of compromise, he's literally a one note character.

The one bit of levity in MoS was the rollicking 332 rhythm theme. That's the composer seeing into the character better than the director, screenwriter, actor... that theme captures the aspect of Superman's character where he's worry free because... he's super.... he can fly, deflect bullets!

Here is Grant Morrison describing the famous cover of his run in Superman, inspired by meeting someone playing Superman at a convention - *"The thing that really hit me, wasn't so much what Superman was saying as how he was sitting. He was perched with one knee drawn up, chin resting on his arms. He looked totally relaxed...and I suddenly realized this was how Superman would sit. He wouldn't puff out his chest or posture heroically, he would be totally chilled. If nothing can hurt you, you can afford to be cool."*







And that's what those confident, fun, rollicking drums are. Superman can kick ass _if need be_ but he's totally un-tense. He's in the flow. There's no grim Batman orphan angst drama about Superman.

IMO the big problem with Man Of Steel was they never showed that side of Superman enough_._ They STARTED the entire cinematic universe by positing a whole race of aliens who can punch as hard as him and throw him all over the city, just so they could have Matrix Revolutions ish fight scenes.


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## jononotbono

NoamL said:


> just so they could have Matrix Revolutions ish fight scenes.



That's not a bad thing!


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## J-M

Too early to judge because the movie isn't even out yet...but the music is completely different than in the previous films. Dunno, maybe the the movie isn't as dark as the previous ones and the music reflects that? (I haven't watched any of the trailers)


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## Consona

NoamL said:


> In terms of the movies, or the scores?


Both.


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## jononotbono

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> For my personal taste I am long long sick & tired of that music style



Curiously, what musical style would you love to hear in today's films instead?


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## AlexanderSchiborr

jononotbono said:


> Curiously, what musical style would you love to hear in today's films instead?



Maybe music which carries a bit more the handwriting of a composer instead of just temptracking to death? It can be modern for good sake, but with Elfman created here a theme which could come from a random composer who does music for 2 years. Yes I heard themes which sounded equally good or bad..like the one from Elfman now..and that is alarming for me to see how painful it is to see even the great ones now writing a way under their capabalities.

In general I would like to see that big studios would allow composers more to do their own thing because a good composer has often very good instincts, ecpecially those who have experience over decades in scoring to picture, but cutting down creativity just to please investors (fuck them) and the audience and temp track to death creates no good soundtracks at all. And you can see such things all over the place.

Apart from that : Music, lets say the orchestral music is able to offer so much more of a a bigger color palette than just pounding percussion, a Lowbrass Wall of Death and Ostinato Cello / Violas playing 16th notes. Sure the writing has to be more sophisticated..when you use just another generic overused chord progressions and orchestrate it like in elfmans version, then you can´t make it far. You can cook with Salt and Pepper and that is fine but if that is the only ingredients then the food will always stay very limited in terms of variety. That would be for me a first step in the better direction. And what is painfully for me is and that is the whole point to see a great composer like elfman working a way under his capabilities temptracking other works to death in order to create a mediocre product. That is pure pain even for me, and I didn´t wrote the soundtrack for that movie. I don´t know how Elfman feels but the paycheck for that torture was pretty good I guess..definitely more than one Dollar! Some of the more traditional composers, maybe also silvestri..have problems to move and show hollywood the middle finger, but that is exactly what they should do: Get the hell out of there.


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## Grizzlymv

MrLinssi said:


> Too early to judge because the movie isn't even out yet...but the music is completely different than in the previous films. Dunno, maybe the the movie isn't as dark as the previous ones and the music reflects that? (I haven't watched any of the trailers)



To me that's not the issue. If the movie is lighter than the previous ones and needs lighter music, that's fine. That doesn't justify the replacement of existing themes by older from other movies/universes. I think they could have kept the themes from MOS and BvS to ensure continuity with that universe, but in a lighter, more orchestral way and could have worked fine. Not it will just feel strange to get the modern wonder women theme along with the old Superman theme and old Batman theme... Anyway. Change of tone fine. Change of themes no... Not if you are in a continuity movie like this...


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## Grizzlymv

In fact, that's one thing DC universe had right vs Marvel universe. Theme continuity. Each character had their theme and they would follow on the next movie even with a different composers. Wonder woman was the best example of this. Sad to see this come to an end...:(


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## jononotbono

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> nd show hollywood the middle finger, but that is exactly what they should do: Get the hell out of there.



And do what instead? Perhaps all of these composers love what they do and don't want to get the hell out of anywhere? I'm wondering, if you ever had the opportunity to take Elfman's place, whether you would give the middle Finger to Hollywood but in all honesty, it sounds like you already have without even getting there. haha! 

I can only imagine how much fun it would be to work on such a high profile film such as this. We like what we like don't we.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

jononotbono said:


> And do what instead? Perhaps all of these composers love what they do and don't want to get the hell out of anywhere? I'm wondering, if you ever had the opportunity to take Elfman's place, whether you would give the middle Finger to Hollywood but in all honesty, it sounds like you already have without even getting there. haha!
> 
> I can only imagine how much fun it would be to work on such a high profile film such as this. We like what we like don't we.



I wish it would be like that for the composers there, but I heard different things. I don´t know if you have maybe a bit of a transfigured romanticized thinking on what is it like working in hollywood for such studios but I gurantee you..it is not like what it looks like for people from outside. You unfortunately are not doing anything there what you like but most of the time what you are told so, and when there is a movie like that and the producer tells you to temptrack other compositions to death and replicate them, then you do it or you go quicker than you can take a breath! There is no dignity, no art, no self fullfillment, no there is the money, and thats all  But..well..everybody to their own..Some people put fame and money over everything else and they feel good just because of that. It is nothing but would make me happy, so I stay away.

But back to topic: What do you think of the theme Danny E. did so far?


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## jononotbono

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I wish it would be like that for the composers there, but I heard different things. I don´t know if you have maybe a bit of a transfigured romanticized thinking on what is it like working in hollywood for such studios but I gurantee you..it is not like what it looks like for people from outside. You unfortunately are not doing anything there what you like but most of the time what you are told so, and when there is a movie like that and the producer tells you to temptrack other compositions to death and replicate them, then you do it or you go quicker than you can take a breath! There is no dignity, no art, no self fullfillment, no there is the money, and thats all  But..well..everybody to their own..Some people put fame and money over everything else and they feel good just because of that. It is nothing but would make me happy, so I stay away.
> 
> But back to topic: What do you think of the theme Danny E. did so far?



I'm not actually romanticising anything to be honest. I am very aware of how a film today is edited and re-edited and re-edtied again, over and over right up to the public release; and how most film producers use similar temp tracks. As with with any job, there are always downsides but I can guarantee that all successful film composers love what they do. They wouldn't do it otherwise. I get that's it not for you and that's totally fine. But what you don't consider to be art is hugely subjective. There are plenty of people that love this musical style and I am one of them. I love a lot of different musical styles and everything has a place. In my opinion of course. As for this piece of music, I simply couldn't give any form of opinion until I have seen the film and listened to it in the context that it was composed for. One of the magical moments of film, for me, is watching it for the very first time and I will never ruin that moment by listening to the music without the film beforehand. It can reveal so much and spoil it. There's only so much magic in the world and I don't want to squander it. When I watch it though I'll be happy to say what I think.

These kind of films must be incredibly difficult to score. I mean, how many characters are in it? That's a lot of themes to incorporate and make something cohesive. It must be a musical nightmare to begin with.


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## Consona

To be honest I don't hear *that* much temptracking in Elfman's JL stuff. It sounds pretty Elfman-ish to me considering he inherited two movies directly from Hans Zimmer and his style of writing. This is part of a "problem". It does not sound like DCEU music, more so when completely different themes are used!

Take a listen to the first 20 seconds of Friends and Foes, the harmonic language is totally un-Zimmer-ish and the first thing you hear is Williams' Superman theme.  



Danny Elfman said:


> The people at DC are starting to understand we’ve got these iconic bits from our past and that’s part of us, that’s part of our heritage -- we shouldn’t run away from that. Contemporary thinking is, every time they reboot something, you have to start completely from scratch -- which, of course, audiences will tell us again and again, is bullshit. Because the single-most surviving and loved theme in the world is _Star Wars,_ which they had the good sense to not dump for the reboots. And every time it comes back, the audience goes crazy.


I think he misinterpreted the situation. The new Star Wars episodes are continuation of the same universe. DCEU is not Williams' Superman nor his Batman.

Still cannot wait to hear all the other tracks.


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## Kent

Consona said:


> I think he misinterpreted the situation. The new Star Wars episodes are continuation of the same universe. DCEU is not Williams' Superman nor his Batman.



True, they're not the same universe _per se_, but neither was Spider-Man: Homecoming part of the 1960's Spidey cartoon universe (being, instead, MCU through and through), yet Giacchino used that theme both literally and as a starting point for his own music. IMO, it was a stronger score because of - not in spite of - this.


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## Consona

Danny Elfman said:


> I think they’re great and he [Whedon] loves doing little things like that that are pure fan excitement: “Do John Williams here, Batman the shit out of this moment.” He knows how fans think. Give them these little things and let them enjoy it.


I think it was Whedon's idea to use those old themes.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Well, it's as uninteresting as these terrible superhero movies are. Not sure what else there was to be expected. But it's a lot better than the usual noise pollution that was common in this kind of films lately.


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## J-M

Grizzlymv said:


> To me that's not the issue. If the movie is lighter than the previous ones and needs lighter music, that's fine. That doesn't justify the replacement of existing themes by older from other movies/universes. I think they could have kept the themes from MOS and BvS to ensure continuity with that universe, but in a lighter, more orchestral way and could have worked fine. Not it will just feel strange to get the modern wonder women theme along with the old Superman theme and old Batman theme... Anyway. Change of tone fine. Change of themes no... Not if you are in a continuity movie like this...



Yeah, I'm not okay with ditching the themes from the earlier DCEU movies. I loved the theme for the new Batman. :/


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## gsilbers

AdamKmusic said:


> Should’ve kept JXL



jeez.. no!


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## galactic orange

Greg said:


> Extremely boring and dated. Old school composers trying to sound modern without touching synthesizers or electronic production always sounds pathetic. And same for vice versa.


Maybe they should call Vince DiCola next time for a nearly fully synthesized score? That would be something different!


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## Rctec

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I wish it would be like that for the composers there, but I heard different things. I don´t know if you have maybe a bit of a transfigured romanticized thinking on what is it like working in hollywood for such studios but I gurantee you..it is not like what it looks like for people from outside. You unfortunately are not doing anything there what you like but most of the time what you are told so, and when there is a movie like that and the producer tells you to temptrack other compositions to death and replicate them, then you do it or you go quicker than you can take a breath! There is no dignity, no art, no self fullfillment, no there is the money, and thats all  But..well..everybody to their own..Some people put fame and money over everything else and they feel good just because of that. It is nothing but would make me happy, so I stay away.
> 
> But back to topic: What do you think of the theme Danny E. did so far?



You know, Alexander Schiborr, I've never had WB or the producers tell me what to write or to change my ideas or style (well, the idea of banjos was a bit of a discussion for their big Christmas realease on "Sherlock". But, who in their right mind doesn't get a bit worried when the composer says "banjos!"). This is such a misconception about how the studio system works. And a lot of the credit for us composers having this freedom goes to people like Danny Elfman, who had the courage to always stick to their convictions, to write what he wanted to write. Especially at WB you have a very knowledgeable head of music (I've known him since the '70s, when he was just in music and not films), who'll fight very hard when he has to for the composer and director's joint vision.
Another thing I am completely sure off: Danny will not have listened to the temp. That's his rule, and everybody knows it when they hire him. In fact, I'm pretty sure (I've never asked him...) he's never seen the "Batman" movies i worked on - just like I did my utmost to forget his music and do something different when I was following in his footsteps.

It's a bit odd for me to comment on something that - up to Wonder Woman - I was very involved with, but I can assure you that the relationship will be between the director and the composer. And no, the director doesn't tell the composer what to write, either. You arrive at a mutual place together.
I can't really remember ever having a studio executive taking the lead in speaking out critically about a score with me before I actually asked his opinion.

Yes, we have previews and the audience is going to tell you very quickly and very unfiltered if the music resonates with them or not. And that can be a pretty brutal process.
And it's not 'till the preview that any executive at the studio hears a single note...
But, as the composer, you'll have already figured out what works and what doesn't when you sit there amongst 600 people. You can feel when something doesn't land...

But I've said it before: music is indefensible. I can't talk an audience or a director into liking something. I can't bullshit, reason, rationalize, intellectualize why they should like something. The music has to resonate in the appropriate way and speak for itself.

I more than once have gotten stuck in trying to solve creative musical choices. My first course of action is to talk it through with the director. Then I'll usually try to 'feel' it at a preview with a large audience, and lastly, I'll have a chat with the head of music. And every major studio has a composer champion as the head of music: knowledgeable, candid, thoughtful, open minded - and most of all, Suportive of the composer.

So, Alexander, I'd love to know - this is a legitimate question for You - where you got the idea from of the 'dictatorship of the executives and producers'. Remember, a producer is really supposed to be a facilitator and help the creative team realize their ideas. And the composer is hired by the studio as an express wish of the directors. The studio will usually give its blessing - no more - to the choices the director makes.

I haven't seen the movie yet, I haven't heard Danny's music yet...but I respect him and admire his work and his intellect. He is a great autonomous thinker and composer. And you don't hire a Danny - or me, for that matter - to copy a temp or tell us how to write a score. We get hired because by giving us the autonomy to create, the producers and executives can sleep better at night.

But yes, I keep seeing this weird 'executive dictatorship' thing not just from you but as a sort of excepted truth, some urban myth pop up in many discussions... so how and where did you get your information?

Best,

-Hz-


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## jononotbono

Rctec said:


> You know, Alexander Schiborr, I've never had WB or the producers tell me what to write or to change my ideas or style (well, the idea of banjos was a bit of a discussion for their big Christmas realease on "Sherlock". But, who in their right mind doesn't get a bit worried when the composer says "banjos!"). This is such a misconception about how the studio system works. And a lot of the credit for us composers having this freedom goes to people like Danny Elfman, who had the courage to always stick to their convictions, to write what he wanted to write. Especially at WB you have a very knowledgeable head of music (I've known him since the '70s, when he was just in music and not films), who'll fight very hard when he has to for the composer and director's joint vision.
> Another thing I am completely sure off: Danny will not have listened to the temp. That's his rule, and everybody knows it when they hire him. In fact, I'm pretty sure (I've never asked him...) he's never seen the "Batman" movies i worked on - just like I did my utmost to forget his music and do something different when I was following in his footsteps.
> 
> It's a bit odd for me to comment on something that - up to Wonder Woman - I was very involved with, but I can assure you that the relationship will be between the director and the composer. And no, the director doesn't tell the composer what to write, either. You arrive at a mutual place together.
> I can't really remember ever having a studio executive taking the lead in speaking out critically about a score with me before I actually asked his opinion.
> 
> Yes, we have previews and the audience is going to tell you very quickly and very unfiltered if the music resonates with them or not. And that can be a pretty brutal process.
> And it's not 'till the preview that any executive at the studio hears a single note...
> But, as the composer, you'll have already figured out what works and what doesn't when you sit there amongst 600 people. You can feel when something doesn't land...
> 
> But I've said it before: music is indefensible. I can't talk an audience or a director into liking something. I can't bullshit, reason, rationalize, intellectualize why they should like something. The music has to resonate in the appropriate way and speak for itself.
> 
> I more than once have gotten stuck in trying to solve creative musical choices. My first course of action is to talk it through with the director. Then I'll usually try to 'feel' it at a preview with a large audience, and lastly, I'll have a chat with the head of music. And every major studio has a composer champion as the head of music: knowledgeable, candid, thoughtful, open minded - and most of all, Suportive of the composer.
> 
> So, Alexander, I'd love to know - this is a legitimate question for You - where you got the idea from of the 'dictatorship of the executives and producers'. Remember, a producer is really supposed to be a facilitator and help the creative team realize their ideas. And the composer is hired by the studio as an express wish of the directors. The studio will usually give its blessing - no more - to the choices the director makes.
> 
> I haven't seen the movie yet, I haven't heard Danny's music yet...but I respect him and admire his work and his intellect. He is a great autonomous thinker and composer. And you don't hire a Danny - or me, for that matter - to copy a temp or tell us how to write a score. We get hired because by giving us the autonomy to create, the producers and executives can sleep better at night.
> 
> But yes, I keep seeing this weird 'executive dictatorship' thing not just from you but as a sort of excepted truth, some urban myth pop up in many discussions... so how and where did you get your information?
> 
> Best,
> 
> -Hz-



WTF do you know?

No seriously, I guess I will now be accused from someone as being a " HZ Fanboy" (still not sure the term "fanboy" is even acceptable in my English vocabulary) or something but as you have quoted a response to one of my questions to Alexander, I just want to say thank you for saying this. Thank you. (Cue the "I'm surrounded by idiots" meme of Scar).


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## NoamL

Grizzlymv said:


> I think they could have kept the themes from MOS and BvS to ensure continuity with that universe, but in a lighter, more orchestral way and could have worked fine.



That's a promising idea @Grizzlymv ... Elfman himself put a very interesting spin on Silvestri's "Avengers" theme in Age Of Ultron!


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Rctec said:


> You know, Alexander Schiborr, I've never had WB or the producers tell me what to write or to change my ideas or style (well, the idea of banjos was a bit of a discussion for their big Christmas realease on "Sherlock". But, who in their right mind doesn't get a bit worried when the composer says "banjos!"). This is such a misconception about how the studio system works. And a lot of the credit for us composers having this freedom goes to people like Danny Elfman, who had the courage to always stick to their convictions, to write what he wanted to write. Especially at WB you have a very knowledgeable head of music (I've known him since the '70s, when he was just in music and not films), who'll fight very hard when he has to for the composer and director's joint vision.
> Another thing I am completely sure off: Danny will not have listened to the temp. That's his rule, and everybody knows it when they hire him. In fact, I'm pretty sure (I've never asked him...) he's never seen the "Batman" movies i worked on - just like I did my utmost to forget his music and do something different when I was following in his footsteps.
> 
> It's a bit odd for me to comment on something that - up to Wonder Woman - I was very involved with, but I can assure you that the relationship will be between the director and the composer. And no, the director doesn't tell the composer what to write, either. You arrive at a mutual place together.
> I can't really remember ever having a studio executive taking the lead in speaking out critically about a score with me before I actually asked his opinion.
> 
> Yes, we have previews and the audience is going to tell you very quickly and very unfiltered if the music resonates with them or not. And that can be a pretty brutal process.
> And it's not 'till the preview that any executive at the studio hears a single note...
> But, as the composer, you'll have already figured out what works and what doesn't when you sit there amongst 600 people. You can feel when something doesn't land...
> 
> But I've said it before: music is indefensible. I can't talk an audience or a director into liking something. I can't bullshit, reason, rationalize, intellectualize why they should like something. The music has to resonate in the appropriate way and speak for itself.
> 
> I more than once have gotten stuck in trying to solve creative musical choices. My first course of action is to talk it through with the director. Then I'll usually try to 'feel' it at a preview with a large audience, and lastly, I'll have a chat with the head of music. And every major studio has a composer champion as the head of music: knowledgeable, candid, thoughtful, open minded - and most of all, Suportive of the composer.
> 
> So, Alexander, I'd love to know - this is a legitimate question for You - where you got the idea from of the 'dictatorship of the executives and producers'. Remember, a producer is really supposed to be a facilitator and help the creative team realize their ideas. And the composer is hired by the studio as an express wish of the directors. The studio will usually give its blessing - no more - to the choices the director makes.
> 
> I haven't seen the movie yet, I haven't heard Danny's music yet...but I respect him and admire his work and his intellect. He is a great autonomous thinker and composer. And you don't hire a Danny - or me, for that matter - to copy a temp or tell us how to write a score. We get hired because by giving us the autonomy to create, the producers and executives can sleep better at night.
> 
> But yes, I keep seeing this weird 'executive dictatorship' thing not just from you but as a sort of excepted truth, some urban myth pop up in many discussions... so how and where did you get your information?
> 
> Best,
> 
> -Hz-



Allright, Thank you Hans for telling and hearing here your very personal story. And I totally believe you that, but is that representative for the majority of other composers? really...do you want to tell me that, or do you just want to share your experience? If second, you can stop reading here right now. If first ,then I guess no, you can´t mean that honestly, right. Or do you want to tell me and all the others here too that this is it like?

Sure you can say that you have your freedom ("We get hired because by giving us the autonomy to create", and that is nice indeed. Maybe it is because you create what they want. So thank you for letting the others know it. By telling your experience here it does reveal and evaluate YOUR very own experience but it is not a representative statement of how it is working there for the other majority of composers, designers etc, or even the end of food chain composers who are even saying amen to ghostwriting.

And in the end I can understand that you defend your WB after party friends there because you work for them and they pay truely good, right. 

You respect Danny, right. Great. Did I say something that I disrespect him? No..I said his theme for this movie is painfully FOR ME to listen to when knowing what he could do when there would no.. and I have to say it: no ignorant producer team as it seems to me so telling him to temptrack others devices to death.
Why they do hire him? In order to reduce him to a Parrot to speak with your voice? Or at least a shitty impression of it. And this work and maintheme sounds painfully like that. And it makes no sense to me. And so I comment, you know? I mean Hollywood makes often no sense to me, like that they spent trillions of dollars on shitty forgetable bad scripted movies, bad actors, hilarous story telling through computer generated images, and last but not least soundtrack that do sound foremost all the same when analyzing their devices, but that´s the times and every period in film history has had its peaks and lows of artistry.

You know in case of that movie here I thought it would be like firing John Williams scoring SW, hiring then you Hans to score SW and then telling you to temptrack John Williams cues. I guess that will not happen, But heya ho haio pai, you know what..it is all opinions and therefore we have that forum to share experience, opinions. And thank you for yours. The diversity in the Herde makes it lively and reminds me of that we are not yet dead, even here. 

A side note: Probably you take a listen to that theme because it makes otherwise no sense to talk about it. And yes thanks for reminding me what my name is..and that without any misstypo. it shows dedication to detail.

And no, no buttslap on my sources..

And Hans..taking your experience and example is somehow...interesting to hear, but not realisitic at all for me, you know you present the kind of extreme side of the food chain case here. You are having your million dollar 24/7 factory bunker there with your 30+ support composers and you are in a very established position in hollywood so your word weighs a lot more than the word from many other composers there and because of your role you have more freedom in doing what you want and demand. But this is not an A-typical case and surely not represenative for many others working there. But calling that all a myth is either totally ignorant on purpose or just defenisve in order to present a better picture of working in L.A.

I mean just to prevent any missinterpretation of my posts here: I am neither jealous nor a grumpy cat. I know a lot of people here dream of working in hollywood on those big movies and though I can understand that, I don´t feel the same about it. I know it is maybe hard to understand why someone thinks like that but like I say: We all have different goals in our lifes and so the motivation is different. While some of you dream of the walk of fame and money the other guy like me just thinks: Damn I would love just to become a great composer having enjoyment in creating the music, what I truely love and even if it is just for myself.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

jononotbono said:


> (Cue the "I'm surrounded by idiots" meme of Scar).



Why getting personal and calling others idiots who have different views on things? You know Luke, I saw that comment where I even liked your post even I thought it was foolish to think where you said this: "As with with any job, there are always downsides but *I can guarantee that all successful film composers love what they do*" I would never call someone saying this that he is an idiot by believing that, though it is unfortunately not always like that when you see the reality. Ecspecially succesful composers had often a hate / love relation to their job, and there are many cases from the past..just look at James Horner for instance and the collaboration with James Cameron. Man they had a love / hate relation so they even didn´t worked for many years together until he scored Titanic. And there are many more examples. I wish it would be like that what you say though. We are not in a perfect world. Just an analogy: Companies do spent money on charity for poor children. Now you can say: Oh, Hooow SWEeet of them! Truely generous, Yes, or you can say: Well, they do that to polish and better their image and they lower their tax return. The truth is somewhere in between, you know. It is not all white or black, there are many shades of Grey inbetween.


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## J-M

Not taking any part in the Hollywood sucks-argument (as I know nothing about it)...But I always find it hilarious when @Rctec just randomly appears to write a lengthy response to someone. Always nice to see the big guys taking time to share their thoughts!


----------



## jononotbono

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Why getting personal and calling others idiots who have different views on things? You know Luke, I saw that comment where I even liked your post even I thought it was foolish to think where you said this: "As with with any job, there are always downsides but *I can guarantee that all successful film composers love what they do*" I would never call someone saying this that he is an idiot by believing that, though it is unfortunately not always like that when you see the reality. Ecspecially succesful composers had often a hate / love relation to their job, and there are many cases from the past..just look at James Horner for instance and the collaboration with James Cameron. Man they had a love / hate relation so they even didn´t worked for many years together until he scored Titanic. And there are many more examples. I wish it would be like that what you say though. We are not in a perfect world. Just an analogy: Companies do spent money on charity for poor children. Now you can say: Oh, Hooow SWEeet of them! Truely generous, Yes, or you can say: Well, they do that to polish and better their image and they lower their tax return. The truth is somewhere in between, you know. It is not all white or black, there are many shades of Grey inbetween.



I haven’t called anyone an idiot. I just don’t like your attitude regarding this stuff. You’re hugely negative and very quick to criticise and slag off other people’s music. Especially when you don’t even like something and even more especially when you haven’t even watched the film to start with. Have you watched Dunkirk yet? Unlikely, yet you didn’t have anything positive to say despite not having watched it when it was released? If that isn’t idiotic then I don’t know what is. I get you don’t like this style of music and again, that’s fair enough, but stop pretending to know how Hollywood composers feel when you aren’t even one yourself. One day huh!

Love hate? I’ve already said every job has downsides. If someone doesnt love Film then being a Film Composer is not for them. It’s that simple. This conversation is going in a circle.


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## Rctec

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Allright, Thank you Hans for telling and hearing here your very personal story. And I totally believe you that, but is that representative for the majority of other composers?
> 
> *Actually, I thought of not quoting from conversations I've had with other composers, to sort of keep it focused and not really paraphrase their experiences. But, no, it's not just my personal story. It's John Powell, it's James Newton Howard, it's Tom Newman and, importantly Danny Elfman. And I can go on and on...*
> *That doesn't mean that neither of us had the odd creative explosion and disagreement. But - if you work with a strong director - that was strictly between the director and the composer. Not the studio and the executives and the composer.*
> 
> really...do you want to tell me that, or do you just want to share your experience? If second, you can stop reading here right now. If first ,then I guess no, you can´t mean that honestly, right. Or do you want to tell me and all the others here too that this is it like?
> 
> *Each situation has of course its own dynamic. But amongst the "A" list composers there is a lot of trust given by the executives to us.*
> 
> Sure you can say that you have your freedom ("We get hired because by giving us the autonomy to create", and that is nice indeed. Maybe it is because you create what they want. So thank you for letting the others know it. By telling your experience here it does reveal and evaluate YOUR very own experience but it is not a representative statement of how it is working there for the other majority of composers, designers etc, or even the end of food chain composers who are even saying amen to ghostwriting.
> 
> 
> *You are right. I'm talking only about the ones that work with strong, communicative directors. Or that are in the "A" team. Curiously, I can't think of anyone in the "A" team that got there by compromising their music... can you?*
> 
> And in the end I can understand that you defend your WB after party friends there because you work for them and they pay truely good, right.
> 
> *I don't really socialize and I know you're trying to bate me into saying something through your sarcasm. But I socialize with my film-making friends, my musician friend... I do press at premieres and walk through the party as quickly as I can. So, no, they don't hire me because I'm fun at parties. They hire me for my work.*
> 
> You respect Danny, right. Great. Did I say something that I disrespect him? No..I said his theme for this movie is painfully FOR ME to listen to when knowing what he could do when there would no.. and I have to say it: no ignorant producer team as it seems to me so telling him to temptrack others devices to death.
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm not understand your sentence. Maybe write it in German. But I'm telling you - there was no producer interference and he doesn't listen to the temp track. Danny would not stand for that, nor his director.*
> 
> 
> Why they do hire him? In order to reduce him to a Parrot to speak with your voice? Or at least a shitty impression of it. And this work and maintheme sounds painfully like that. And it makes no sense to me. And so I comment, you know? I mean Hollywood makes often no sense to me, like that they spent trillions of dollars on shitty forgetable bad scripted movies, bad actors, hilarous story telling through computer generated images, and last but not least soundtrack that do sound foremost all the same when analyzing their devices, but that´s the times and every period in film history has had its peaks and lows of artistry.
> 
> 
> *Actually, it didn't feel like you where commenting. It felt like you had first-hand knowledge of The Facts. But I agree with you. This is a forum where we can share facts. And all I was trying to do is descibe the facts to you and ask you where you got your counter-facts from. Because to me it read not as an opinion, but that you where stating facts about the creative process in this town.*
> 
> You know in case of that movie here I thought it would be like firing John Williams scoring SW, hiring then you Hans to score SW and then telling you to temptrack John Williams cues. I guess that will not happen, But heya ho haio pai, you know what..it is all opinions and therefore we have that forum to share experience, opinions. And thank you for yours. The diversity in the Herde makes it lively and reminds me of that we are not yet dead, even here.
> 
> A side note: Probably you take a listen to that theme because it makes otherwise no sense to talk about it. And yes thanks for reminding me what my name is..and that without any misstypo. it shows dedication to detail.
> 
> 
> 
> *Actually, I'll probably not listen to the theme. I've listened to enough "Batman and Superman" for two life-times! Here is a side-note for you: most film composers don't listen to film music! There is too much great other music out there - from Bach to Pink Floyd and Charlie Parker, Stravinsky to Kraftwerk (fill in your own favorites!)*
> 
> 
> And no, no buttslap on my sources..
> 
> And Hans..taking your experience and example is somehow...interesting to hear, but not realisitic at all for me, you know you present the kind of extreme side of the food chain case here. You are having your million dollar 24/7 factory bunker there with your 30+ support composers and you are in a very established position in hollywood so your word weighs a lot more than the word from many other composers there and because of your role you have more freedom in doing what you want and demand. But this is not an A-typical case and surely not represenative for many others working there. But calling that all a myth is either totally ignorant on purpose or just defenisve in order to present a better picture of working in L.A.
> 
> 
> *I know you're not concerned with the truth or the facts, You mistake opinion for first-hand knowledge. But I have right now one "musical" assistant, while everybody else works autonomously on their own projects. That's what RCP is about. Sharing infrastructure, technology and knowledge. And I'm very honorable in not pulling them off their projects "as a favor". Shit - I could do with Ramin or Henry Jackman occasionally! But that's how someone new gets a chance to become the next John Powell. I think Ben Wallfisch is well on his way...*
> *I'm most certainly not ignorant of all the gossip you seem to have taken as gospel to embrace a very narrow view of a very tiny world. It is a very small community, the composer community in Hollywood. Just as chatty and tattle-tailing as anyone else. But we are honest with each other.*
> *I try not to represent a false and better picture of Hollywood. Yes, when there is a creative breakdown between the Director and the Composer (something that the studio wants to avoid - because it gets really expensive), people get fired and another composer gets hired. And sometimes that truly is because - with the best intentions - younrealize too late that the movie You where trying to make, that worked so well on paper, isn't the movie that should be made. And everybody has the freedom to say that they are capable of changing direction mid-stream.*
> 
> I mean just to prevent any missinterpretation of my posts here: I am neither jealous nor a grumpy cat. I know a lot of people here dream of working in hollywood on those big movies and though I can understand that, I don´t feel the same about it. I know it is maybe hard to understand why someone thinks like that but like I say: We all have different goals in our lifes and so the motivation is different. While some of you dream of the walk of fame and money the other guy like me just thinks: Damn I would love just to become a great composer having enjoyment in creating the music, what I truely love and even if it is just for myself.
> 
> *You know, that's exactly what I hear from every other composer I know: they just want to get better at writing music. They want to learn and explore, be excited about someone giving them an opportunity to just write, write, write. They don't look for fame, they look for acknowledgment from their peers and their audience - but finally, they are most concerned with their own standards and opinion about their work. Money - and this is a personal thought, I don't know about anyone else - is not inspiring to me. It doesn't buy you a good idea or help you write a theme you can be proud off. And the only reason we are still in the studio on a Sunday at 5:00 am is because the joy we can get of making music.*
> *You can always meet a deadline. You can always make the score for however tiny the budget is. And you can always clock off at 5:00 pm. But those that are truly passionate are here all night. And no money can come close to the satisfaction of feeling you are maybe onto a good and new idea, or a good tune...or just a cool adventure.*
> 
> *All my best to you, and please... don't be vague. Tell us what sources formed your didactic opinion.*
> 
> *-Hz-*


----------



## Rctec

↑
Allright, Thank you Hans for telling and hearing here your very personal story. And I totally believe you that, but is that representative for the majority of other composers?

*Actually, I thought of not quoting from conversations I've had with other composers, to sort of keep it focused and not really paraphrase their experiences. But, no, it's not just my personal story. It's John Powell, it's James Newton Howard, it's Tom Newman and, importantly Danny Elfman. And I can go on and on...*
*That doesn't mean that neither of us had the odd creative explosion and disagreement. But - if you work with a strong director - that was strictly between the director and the composer. Not the studio and the executives and the composer.*

really...do you want to tell me that, or do you just want to share your experience? If second, you can stop reading here right now. If first ,then I guess no, you can´t mean that honestly, right. Or do you want to tell me and all the others here too that this is it like?

*Each situation has of course its own dynamic. But amongst the "A" list composers there is a lot of trust given by the executives to us.*

Sure you can say that you have your freedom ("We get hired because by giving us the autonomy to create", and that is nice indeed. Maybe it is because you create what they want. So thank you for letting the others know it. By telling your experience here it does reveal and evaluate YOUR very own experience but it is not a representative statement of how it is working there for the other majority of composers, designers etc, or even the end of food chain composers who are even saying amen to ghostwriting.


*You are right. I'm talking only about the ones that work with strong, communicative directors. Or that are in the "A" team. Curiously, I can't think of anyone in the "A" team that got there by compromising their music... can you?*

And in the end I can understand that you defend your WB after party friends there because you work for them and they pay truely good, right.

*I don't really socialize and I know you're trying to bate me into saying something through your sarcasm. But I socialize with my film-making friends, my musician friend... I do press at premieres and walk through the party as quickly as I can. So, no, they don't hire me because I'm fun at parties. They hire me for my work.*

You respect Danny, right. Great. Did I say something that I disrespect him? No..I said his theme for this movie is painfully FOR ME to listen to when knowing what he could do when there would no.. and I have to say it: no ignorant producer team as it seems to me so telling him to temptrack others devices to death.



*I'm not understand your sentence. Maybe write it in German. But I'm telling you - there was no producer interference and he doesn't listen to the temp track. Danny would not stand for that, nor his director.*


Why they do hire him? In order to reduce him to a Parrot to speak with your voice? Or at least a shitty impression of it. And this work and maintheme sounds painfully like that. And it makes no sense to me. And so I comment, you know? I mean Hollywood makes often no sense to me, like that they spent trillions of dollars on shitty forgetable bad scripted movies, bad actors, hilarous story telling through computer generated images, and last but not least soundtrack that do sound foremost all the same when analyzing their devices, but that´s the times and every period in film history has had its peaks and lows of artistry.


*Actually, it didn't feel like you where commenting. It felt like you had first-hand knowledge of The Facts. But I agree with you. This is a forum where we can share facts. And all I was trying to do is descibe the facts to you and ask you where you got your counter-facts from. Because to me it read not as an opinion, but that you where stating facts about the creative process in this town.*

You know in case of that movie here I thought it would be like firing John Williams scoring SW, hiring then you Hans to score SW and then telling you to temptrack John Williams cues. I guess that will not happen, But heya ho haio pai, you know what..it is all opinions and therefore we have that forum to share experience, opinions. And thank you for yours. The diversity in the Herde makes it lively and reminds me of that we are not yet dead, even here. 

A side note: Probably you take a listen to that theme because it makes otherwise no sense to talk about it. And yes thanks for reminding me what my name is..and that without any misstypo. it shows dedication to detail.



*Actually, I'll probably not listen to the theme. I've listened to enough "Batman and Superman" for two life-times! Here is a side-note for you: most film composers don't listen to film music! There is too much great other music out there - from Bach to Pink Floyd and Charlie Parker, Stravinsky to Kraftwerk (fill in your own favorites!)*


And no, no buttslap on my sources..

And Hans..taking your experience and example is somehow...interesting to hear, but not realisitic at all for me, you know you present the kind of extreme side of the food chain case here. You are having your million dollar 24/7 factory bunker there with your 30+ support composers and you are in a very established position in hollywood so your word weighs a lot more than the word from many other composers there and because of your role you have more freedom in doing what you want and demand. But this is not an A-typical case and surely not represenative for many others working there. But calling that all a myth is either totally ignorant on purpose or just defenisve in order to present a better picture of working in L.A.


*I know you're not concerned with the truth or the facts, You mistake opinion for first-hand knowledge. But I have right now one "musical" assistant, while everybody else works autonomously on their own projects. That's what RCP is about. Sharing infrastructure, technology and knowledge. And I'm very honorable in not pulling them off their projects "as a favor". Shit - I could do with Ramin or Henry Jackman occasionally! But that's how someone new gets a chance to become the next John Powell. I think Ben Wallfisch is well on his way...*
*I'm most certainly not ignorant of all the gossip you seem to have taken as gospel to embrace a very narrow view of a very tiny world. It is a very small community, the composer community in Hollywood. Just as chatty and tattle-tailing as anyone else. But we are honest with each other.*
*I try not to represent a false and better picture of Hollywood. Yes, when there is a creative breakdown between the Director and the Composer (something that the studio wants to avoid - because it gets really expensive), people get fired and another composer gets hired. And sometimes that truly is because - with the best intentions - younrealize too late that the movie You where trying to make, that worked so well on paper, isn't the movie that should be made. And everybody has the freedom to say that they are capable of changing direction mid-stream.*

I mean just to prevent any missinterpretation of my posts here: I am neither jealous nor a grumpy cat. I know a lot of people here dream of working in hollywood on those big movies and though I can understand that, I don´t feel the same about it. I know it is maybe hard to understand why someone thinks like that but like I say: We all have different goals in our lifes and so the motivation is different. While some of you dream of the walk of fame and money the other guy like me just thinks: Damn I would love just to become a great composer having enjoyment in creating the music, what I truely love and even if it is just for myself.

*You know, that's exactly what I hear from every other composer I know: they just want to get better at writing music. They want to learn and explore, be excited about someone giving them an opportunity to just write, write, write. They don't look for fame, they look for acknowledgment from their peers and their audience - but finally, they are most concerned with their own standards and opinion about their work. Money - and this is a personal thought, I don't know about anyone else - is not inspiring to me. It doesn't buy you a good idea or help you write a theme you can be proud off. And the only reason we are still in the studio on a Sunday at 5:00 am is because the joy we can get of making music.*
*You can always meet a deadline. You can always make the score for however tiny the budget is. And you can always clock off at 5:00 pm. But those that are truly passionate are here all night. And no money can come close to the satisfaction of feeling you are maybe onto a good and new idea, or a good tune...or just a cool adventure.*

*All my best to you, and please... don't be vague. Tell us what sources formed your didactic opinion.*

*-Hz-*


----------



## NoamL

@Rctec saw your first post yesterday but didn't have time to respond fully as I was on an all nighter day, wrapping up an orchestration gig... apologies if any of this is too rambling...

You are correct that it's pretty presumptuous for me to assume creative interference when I don't know the details. Also, I can't speak for Alexander but my own experiences with producers (while acting as an addl music guy) have been positive and yes, they have been advocates and champions for the musical vision.

I therefore had to think about your question, where am I getting this negative idea, and somewhat of a *reflex*, of blaming producers/interference when I don't like a composer's output? I think it's mostly because films sometimes don't go well, they are "troubled." It comes out one way or another, whether in the entertainment press or the grapevine or the DVD special features. In those cases the producers sometime come across pretty badly trying to "save the movie in post."

Of course they are not villains, they want the movie to be good, but I have heard horror stories about these scenarios. An assistant of a composer I greatly admire once told me his boss's most recent blockbuster score was on "try number three" meaning a third write-through of the entire movie with new themes and everything. The final score was great and the movie barely made it to profitability.

Every composer has their sound - exactly like you said, nobody became a success by NOT having a sound - and I think scores can vary between "wow, that Jim SoAndSo score sounds exactly like a Jim SoAndSo score" and "that's pretty anonymous." All very subjective no doubt. But when I said "Why hire Elfman and ask him to write those bramms" I admit it was wrong to imply that he was being ordered to write stuff, but I _was_ meaning to say that that character of brass writing doesn't feel very "Elfman." Age of Ultron sounded much more "like him" to me. 

Someone mentioned Brian Tyler.... I would know in an instant, sight unseen, that "Now You See Me" is a Brian Tyler score as it's so quintessentially "him"; or that "Sherlock Holmes" is you; or that "Kingsman" is Jackman; etc.

@AlexanderSchiborr I really like your music man, you know that, but you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about RCP in regards to supposedly "killing" the silver age Hollywood writing of Silvestri and Williams that you love to study and mockup (as do I). If you actually came out here to LA you would realize that literally almost every composer has a mini Remote Control helping them and this is not a bad thing. You would also see people coming out of these "corporate music factories" as you say and making great careers and some of the most well orchestrated music in modern Hollywood... like Henry Jackman! Just look at "Big Hero Six" if you want to see that the style of orchestral writing we both like is far from dead. Of course there is crap music too but that's no different than it was in the 80s and 90s. I'll leave it at that.


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## John Busby

Rctec said:


> *Money *- and this is a personal thought, I don't know about anyone else - *is not inspiring to me. It doesn't buy you a good idea or help you write a theme you can be proud off.*


i f'ing love this!!
Hans you are a treasure

@AlexanderSchiborr 
HZ expressed an exorbitant amount of patience in his responses to you man!
i on the other hand....
you may have been getting overly passionate which i can understand, but your comments make you sound like a douche bag dude


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## Guy Bacos

Although I initially clashed with Hans on this forum and other messanging with a few cheap shots, talking directly with him was very helpful in me understand many things about the trade and myself. Not only that, but I gradually discovered so much more to his style than the epic genre and 16th note pattern, which today I see as just one technique among others, and can admire the wealth of different music styles he scored. I was basically being a perroquet. With so many things that are said about the film industry, it can become confusing and out of foccus, and it is refreshing to occasionally hear it directly from the horse's mouth. Hans is a great ambassador to his trade chiming in like this giving a fact/reality check to the business.


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## SterlingArcher

NoamL said:


> @Rctec
> Someone mentioned Brian Tyler.... I would know in an instant, sight unseen, that "Now You See Me" is a Brian Tyler score as it's so quintessentially "him"; or that "Sherlock Holmes" is you; or that "Kingsman" is Jackman; etc.



I would also add Harry Gregson-Williams to this as his scores have a very distinctive sound and presentation to my ears.


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## SterlingArcher

Apparently Danny Elfman had a interview recently with a Spanish website called 'Reporte Indigo' about his Batman score where as response to one of the questions he claims that his 'Batman' theme is the ONLY Batman theme. His response starts at 2:27.



I will admit that I was worried when it was rumoured that Danny Elfman was hired to replace Junkie XL as while Danny's Batman themes for Batman and Batman Returns are absolutely brilliant and iconic they were for films that were of their time and era and I cannot see them working with the Justice League film no matter how they are jazzed up.

I don't know why he made that decision whether it was with good intentions or arrogance but I feel that it is a mistake and may help torpedo the DC Cinematic Universe.

What does anyone else think?


----------



## Grizzlymv

so that big WW electric cello theme...along with the classic Superman theme (for a cartoonish Superman) and the Batman theme he wrote for the, again, very cartoonish Batman all mixed in a very serious world that was established in WW, MOS and BvS... will have to see how it stand within the movie, but I'm really disappointed to see a break in the thematic of these characters... Probably would have been different if JL would have been the first movie with those character, but denying there history now that you've got 3 movies establishing them already...I dunno... wait and see I guess...


----------



## Greg

SterlingArcher said:


> Apparently Danny Elfman had a interview recently with a Spanish website called 'Reporte Indigo' about his Batman score where as response to one of the questions he claims that his 'Batman' theme is the ONLY Batman theme. His response starts at 2:27.
> 
> 
> 
> What does anyone else think?




The script won't even give him a chance to explore 1% of the depth Nolan found in Batman. It will obviously nail the nostalgia and thats the only thing these cheesy super hero movies aspire to do. Perfect man for the job.


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## givemenoughrope

Rctec said:


> But I've said it before: music is indefensible. I can't talk an audience or a director into liking something. I can't bullshit, reason, rationalize, intellectualize why they should like something.



But you can certainly TRY, right? i.e. How does that tie into the song and dance of selling the music, selling the concept either to directors or the general public? All of these composer puff pieces are about that ...talking about broad, somewhat musical concepts in made up, non-musical terms in order to sell it/relate it as something specific to the film. It's window dressing and it certainly doesn't mean that the actual music will land as you said. Is the PR song and dance a necessary evil? Bc otherwise the composer is just solely relying on their music as well as being this faceless non-entity with a music credit. We have to write great music and then also let everyone know that it's there and how great the concept behind it is.

I guess my question is 'How do you really sell them on your music?' bc it seems you can't JUST do it with the music. You sell the concept and you sell the music...but how much of each? What's the best way to think about this?


----------



## NoamL

SterlingArcher said:


> Apparently Danny Elfman had a interview recently with a Spanish website called 'Reporte Indigo' about his Batman score where as response to one of the questions he claims that his 'Batman' theme is the ONLY Batman theme.
> 
> What does anyone else think?



Weird thing for Danny to say, but, it's kind of true? I see Zimmer's theme as Elfman's theme boiled down to its elemental core. The Dmin-Bbmaj motion and the idea of a crescendo and rising melody and big Gothic feeling orchestration, are all in Elfman's theme, and they're present in HZ's "two chord" theme too. To resist calling that a theme, though, I think is wrong because in the same film he showed even 1 evolving note can be a theme.



givemenoughrope said:


> All of these composer puff pieces are about that ...talking about broad, somewhat musical concepts in made up, non-musical terms in order to sell it/relate it as something specific to the film. It's window dressing and it certainly doesn't mean that the actual music will land as you said



LOL. Well it's true he always seems to have a ready made "hook" for the entertainment press's coverage of his work (e.g. the "letter" from Interstellar or the basement piano for Sherlock) but don't get things confused, that has nothing to do with making the film work. It works on its own terms.


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## John Busby

we will see how the movie is and then make our judgments
but....
I've probably listened to the Dark Knight score a few dozen times at least since '08 and Elfman's score maybe 0 times outside of the movie.
I've also listened to the Man of Steel score numerous times in the last 4 years including watching the movie over and over. I absolutely loved MOS, are they scrapping the themes and palettes that HZ did for that as well? geez...
they've already used them in the trailer marketing? i'm confused...


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## Grizzlymv

well. there's a quick article about that interview Elfman did. and for fun, they did swap the themes on movies, meaning they used Elfman's theme on Batman Begin and then Zimmer's theme on Tim Burton's Batman. One fits better in both visual style than the other in my opinion. And I hope that Elfman adapted his Batman theme in a more serious/dark / less fantasy style to fit the mood of DCU. but we'll see in a few days when the movie comes out. I still don't agree to mix themes from different worlds like that, but it is what it is.  https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1720160/what-danny-elfman-thinks-about-hans-zimmers-batman-theme


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## Kent

Grizzlymv said:


> well. there's a quick article about that interview Elfman did. and for fun, they did swap the themes on movies, meaning they used Elfman's theme on Batman Begin and then Zimmer's theme on Tim Burton's Batman. One fits better in both visual style than the other in my opinion. And I hope that Elfman adapted his Batman theme in a more serious/dark / less fantasy style to fit the mood of DCU. but we'll see in a few days when the movie comes out. I still don't agree to mix themes from different worlds like that, but it is what it is.  https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1720160/what-danny-elfman-thinks-about-hans-zimmers-batman-theme



Score-swapping like in that example isn’t really a fair way to judge the effectiveness of a score, though. Danny Elfman would have never written that many notes over a dialogue scene, for example, to say nothing of mood, tone, or dramatic-filmic intent. Of course the Zimmer music works better in that clip, but it doesn’t prove or disprove anything about who they are as film composers or which style is “better”; it just proves that whoever made that video made a more appropriate selection with the Zimmer/Burton mashup.

What is helpful, and fair, is seeing how the composer himself uses, or doesn’t use, a theme or motive in a scene or a movie. For example, in DKR Zimmer directly quotes Elfman’s theme a couple times in the basses:



It's not a particularly spectacular moment in the film, nor is it a foregrounded moment for the music, but it does show Hans Zimmer, intentionally or not, equating an on-screen Batman with scale degrees 1-2-♭3-♭6-5, with the first three notes equal in length and short and latter two notes longer: the Elfman Batman theme. 

But notice! Zimmer also simultaneously uses his own two-note Batman motif in the horns above - which obviously means "on-screen Batman" - so is he really using the Elfman theme as a Batman signifier, too? 

Only he can answer.

But whatever that answer is, the quotes of the Elfman theme in DKR don't sound anything like those same notes sound in the Burton movies. And that's okay - these were very different movies! But this moment in the film wasn't cheapened by 1-2-♭3-♭6-5, because Zimmer made it appropriate in "tone" for the moment and for the movie.

So...

Until the movie comes out on the 17th (or you're lucky and get to go to a screening), it's sort of pointless to talk about how good the score is, since without the context of the picture, you're only looking a shadow cast on a cave wall. 

...Or a Bat-Signal in the Gotham clouds... 

(and just to clarify: @Grizzlymv this is a response to the link you shared, not an attack on you!)


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## Grizzlymv

Didn't felt that way. Don't worry.  To clarify though, I didn't share it to start a debate about which theme is better, as both are equally great in my book. They belong to different world and they work perfectly in theirs own. It was more to highlight the tone and color would or wouldn't work well in a different universe it was written for. Nobody will deny how iconic William's Superman or Eflman's Batman themes are. No matter how good or bad one could think the MCU themes are, doesn't justify that move in opinion. 

But then again, Elfman knows very well what he's doing and he surely found a way to adapt his theme for the tone and color of the MCU world. We'll see in the movie how it goes. And maybe eventually we'll know the reasons of that sudden thematic change in that MCU universe.


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## dstorfer

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> The sound and orchestration is nice and great executed. I like the Atmosphere. But honestly..I don´t like the theme at all. It misses for me the "theme". Where is it really..He wrote a bunch of notes going forth and back..reduce this piece to 2 hand Piano..and you have minus the orchestration a not coherent piece in my opinion. I am suprised how bad written this theme ist. Sorry to say, but that is my opinion on Dannys Work..a bit strange because I like his older works a lot. There is no red thread throughout the piece. When it would be underscore..allright..hit and miss but for a theme..this is tragically bad for my taste.



I don't think I've heard a "theme" in a superhero movie for decades. I think about the 3 Spiderman films with Toby plus the Garfield ones too, all those X-Men films and their solo spinoffs, the Avengers series and all their solo films, etc. The Batman trilogy, and really most Zimmer stuff. Seriously I can't hum a single theme. The superhero TV shows are even worse, although Supergirl might have a little one, just not that good. 
And it's funny because Elfman did the 80s Batman which has a very good theme and cohesive threads. But he never repeated that success.
Other film types like fantasy and sci-fi don't suffer so much, the Hobbit films have some notable themes. Obviously Harry Potter as well. I wish I could say Interstellar had some kind of theme because I actually quite like that one. Trying to think of a recent sci-fi flick (not star wars universe) with a good theme?


----------



## NoamL

dstorfer said:


> Trying to think of a recent sci-fi flick (not star wars universe) with a good theme?



Inception, Moon, Pacific Rim, Tron Legacy are all strong scores IMO


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## skyy38

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> The sound and orchestration is nice and great executed. I like the Atmosphere. But honestly..I don´t like the theme at all. It misses for me the "theme". Where is it really..He wrote a bunch of notes going forth and back..reduce this piece to 2 hand Piano..and you have minus the orchestration a not coherent piece in my opinion. I am suprised how bad written this theme ist. Sorry to say, but that is my opinion on Dannys Work..a bit strange because I like his older works a lot. There is no red thread throughout the piece. When it would be underscore..allright..hit and miss but for a theme..this is tragically bad for my taste.



Same old fucking crap from Elfman and ALL of the composers that HE has been inspired or RIPPED OFF from!

Like that Junkie XL "Screaming Guitars" bullshit (Wonder Woman's Theme), THIS is just another example of soundtrack composers who have LONG over stayed their welcome.

Put ANOTHER way- don't expect THIS music, to be remembered or re-issued 40 years from now.

Not ANYTHING like STAR WARS.


----------



## NoamL

skyy38 said:


> Like that Junkie XL "Screaming Guitars" bullshit (Wonder Woman's Theme)



well, I prefer it to Bruce Broughton's "Metallic Oboe" bullshit (Superman's Theme)


----------



## NoamL

(the joke, if you don't get it, is that http://www.instyle.com/reviews-coverage/music/tina-guo-wonder-woman-theme-song (you've got both the instrument and composer wrong)... but since when did that stop anyone from having an opinion...)


----------



## J-M

NoamL said:


> (the joke, if you don't get it, is that http://www.instyle.com/reviews-coverage/music/tina-guo-wonder-woman-theme-song (you've got both the instrument and composer wrong)... but since when did that stop anyone from having an opinion...)



Well this is embarrassing, but when I heard the theme for the first time I thought it was a guitar...and I've been playing for...9 years?  (But to be fair, Tina can make a cello sound like a guitar any day of the week)


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## SterlingArcher

MrLinssi said:


> Well this is embarrassing, but when I heard the theme for the first time I thought it was a guitar...and I've been playing for...9 years?  (But to be fair, Tina can make a cello sound like a guitar any day of the week)



Whenever I hear the Wonder Woman theme played on a electric cello I feel very sorry for Tina as she’ll probably be playing that theme for a long long time.


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## Rodney Money

SterlingArcher said:


> Whenever I hear the Wonder Woman theme played on a electric cello I feel very sorry for Tina as she’ll probably be playing that theme for a long long time.


Don't feel too sorry for her. That theme might buy her a summer vacation house.


----------



## patrick76

skyy38 said:


> Same old fucking crap from Elfman and ALL of the composers that HE has been inspired or RIPPED OFF from!
> 
> Like that Junkie XL "Screaming Guitars" bullshit (Wonder Woman's Theme), THIS is just another example of soundtrack composers who have LONG over stayed their welcome.
> 
> Put ANOTHER way- don't expect THIS music, to be remembered or re-issued 40 years from now.
> 
> Not ANYTHING like STAR WARS.


Can YOU please HELP me understand your USE OF caps. HONESTLY, I cannot REALLY follow it.


----------



## SterlingArcher

skyy38 said:


> Same old fucking crap from Elfman and ALL of the composers that HE has been inspired or RIPPED OFF from!
> 
> Like that Junkie XL "Screaming Guitars" bullshit (Wonder Woman's Theme), THIS is just another example of soundtrack composers who have LONG over stayed their welcome.
> 
> Put ANOTHER way- don't expect THIS music, to be remembered or re-issued 40 years from now.
> 
> Not ANYTHING like STAR WARS.





patrick76 said:


> Can YOU please HELP me understand your USE OF caps. HONESTLY, I cannot REALLY follow it.



IIRC James Horner was sometimes called out on re-using some of his themes across different films or lifting other pieces of classical music.


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## dstorfer

NoamL said:


> Inception, Moon, Pacific Rim, Tron Legacy are all strong scores IMO



They are fair, but again not a single hummable bar among them. 
And even if they were great and had themes, they also are not superhero films. Something about that genre that has just fallen into boring soundwashes with that big foghorn sound that now accompanies all action trailers described here :
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/braaams-beginners-how-a-horn-793220


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## resound

On another note, I am interested to hear what Mark Mothersbaugh did with Thor: Ragnarok. I thought he was an interesting choice to score a superhero film when I first heard about it. I can't imagine him falling into the homogenized sound of the rest of the films.


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## J-M

resound said:


> On another note, I am interested to hear what Mark Mothersbaugh did with Thor: Ragnarok. I thought he was an interesting choice to score a superhero film when I first heard about it. I can't imagine him falling into the homogenized sound of the rest of the films.



In my humble opinion the movie was one of the best Marvel movies I've seen...and I've seen all of them several times (comic book fan). To me, the score wasn't that memorable, but I think it fit the movie well, I was actually surprised to hear some 80s synth lines in there. But considering the way the movie presented itself, they didn't feel out of place at all.


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## CT

dstorfer said:


> They are fair, but again not a single hummable bar among them.



I can, and do, hum stuff from _Inception_ and _Tron: Legacy_.


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## Grizzlymv

here's a very short example of his Batman theme as used in the movie.


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## vewilya

SterlingArcher said:


> Apparently Danny Elfman had a interview recently with a Spanish website called 'Reporte Indigo' about his Batman score where as response to one of the questions he claims that his 'Batman' theme is the ONLY Batman theme. His response starts at 2:27.
> 
> 
> 
> I will admit that I was worried when it was rumoured that Danny Elfman was hired to replace Junkie XL as while Danny's Batman themes for Batman and Batman Returns are absolutely brilliant and iconic they were for films that were of their time and era and I cannot see them working with the Justice League film no matter how they are jazzed up.
> 
> I don't know why he made that decision whether it was with good intentions or arrogance but I feel that it is a mistake and may help torpedo the DC Cinematic Universe.
> 
> What does anyone else think?



Well it comes down to what you define as theme then! I love Danny Elfman's score for the original Batman but Hans has clearly come up with a theme imho! I mean the ultra-expressive horn line is still ringing in my head. Sounded like a theme to me, no??


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## Consona

I think Hans Zimmer just left one movie too early.


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## J-M

Grizzlymv said:


> here's a very short example of his Batman theme as used in the movie.




I gotta say, hearing the classic theme and watching Batman doing his thing brought back some good memories! We'll see how it goes when the film hits the theaters...


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## Guffy

I kinda thought the movie looked like a disaster from the beginning.
Nothing against Elfman, but this sounds like an entirely different universe.
I've just listened to both tracks several times and i find it less memorable and exciting than a well-layered percussion hit. I guess it might work in the context of the movie (if you've stayed away from DC movies for the past 15 years)
And how is the WW theme gonna fit into all of this? Won't be surprised if he's come up with a new one for her, which would be sad.

Oh well..


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## J-M

Fugdup said:


> I kinda thought the movie looked like a disaster from the beginning.
> Nothing against Elfman, but this sounds like an entirely different universe.
> I've just listened to both tracks several times and i find it less memorable and exciting than a well-layered percussion hit. I guess it might work in the context of the movie (if you've stayed away from DC movies for the past 15 years)
> And how is the WW theme gonna fit into all of this? Won't be surprised if he's come up with a new one for her, which would be sad.
> 
> Oh well..



As a fan of superheroes and comics in general, DCs cinematic universe has never looked that good...in my opinion anyway. They only have a few movies and are already trying to introduce JL and the greater villains without establishing a proper universe first...


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## NoamL

I agree but in retrospect it's difficult to see how things could have been done better. On the one hand they're trying to introduce this gravitas around Batman, and a "mystery" about whether Superman will return, that is totally out of proportion with how much we've seen these versions of the characters on screen and how forgettable those story installments were, BVS especially. On the other hand if they delayed Justice League any further there would have been at least 4, maybe 5 or 6, "team up" movies coming out first - Avengers, Ultron, Civil War, Ragnarok (?), Suicide Squad, possibly Avengers 4, etc. Despite the hundreds of millions it takes to make them, "team up" movies are already old hat in 2017... pushing it to 2018 or 2019 might really have been risky.

Right now Wonder Woman is carrying the DCU. I like the cyborg-looking guy and Khal Drogo as Aquaman has promise too. The DCU's versions of Batman, Superman (and the Joker if they dare to bring back the version from Suicide Squad) are the drags.


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## NoamL

I made this chart over the summer ("Holding like a champ" was a box-office discussion inside joke about how well Spider-Man kept holding on to the weekend B.O. week after week).

It really shows that Wonder-Woman had the box office legs of a Disney movie.







Many films dip heavily in the 2nd & 3rd month as theaters rotate films, Wonder Woman by contrast actually EXPANDED its screenings after 3 months. 

I really think some smart exec at WB ought to just take some initiative, cut their losses and make the DCU about Wonder Woman. Seriously - why not? Where does it say in the Bible that DC is the Superman Channel? 

Here's another way of looking at it, with the benefit of history. If you had to formulate a movie strategy for Marvel in 2008 the "right", conservative answer would have been "pay through the nose to get Spider-Man back because he's the only one anyone cares about." Instead they took the creative route and built their whole universe around Iron Man. It worked because people care less about the specific character than the kind of movie and spectacle that's being offered. Iron Man is a high street tier character like Spidey, he does aerial stunts similar to Spidey, he is a wisecracker like Spidey, he has personal struggles and isn't just an impassive god - you can see all of the appeal of a Spider-Man movie was there, if you made a good Iron Man movie. I see Wonder Woman as being an obvious substitute for Supes in that regard. Can anyone really save this incarnation of Supes? It's remarkable how little people care about his resurrection.


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## Consona

NoamL said:


> Can anyone really save this incarnation of Supes?


I don't want to turn this thread into another MoS/BvS vs the rest of the world warzone. But comic book movies-wise, Snyder's Superman is the best thing we have ever got only next to Nolan's Batman, IMO.


----------



## Grizzlymv

Fugdup said:


> I kinda thought the movie looked like a disaster from the beginning.
> Nothing against Elfman, but this sounds like an entirely different universe.
> I've just listened to both tracks several times and i find it less memorable and exciting than a well-layered percussion hit. I guess it might work in the context of the movie (if you've stayed away from DC movies for the past 15 years)
> And how is the WW theme gonna fit into all of this? Won't be surprised if he's come up with a new one for her, which would be sad.
> 
> Oh well..



He said he will use the theme Hans and Junkie XL (actually, it's more Tina Guo) wrote. You can hear it here (near the end) in a more orchestral way:


----------



## J-M

Consona said:


> I don't want to turn this thread into another MoS/BvS vs the rest of the world warzone. But comic book movies-wise, Snyder's Superman is the best thing we have ever got only next to Nolan's Batman, IMO.



WHAT? *incomprehensible youtube rant about your tastes as an individual and how you know nothing about DC.

But all kidding aside, all we can do is hope that the movie is at least decent and the score fits.


----------



## rpaillot

Grizzlymv said:


> here's a very short example of his Batman theme as used in the movie.




Sounds good ! 

I think the decision of Danny to use his original main theme is obvious. I don't see it as a "pun" to Hans.

Does Danny Elfman sound like Hans Zimmer normally? no. They have completely different styles. Two unique voices.

If he had used HZ Nolan Batman, and Man Of Steel theme, it would not have 
sounded "legit" to me. It's simply not his thing.. if I was a director and I wanted to hire Danny Elfman, I would love him to express himself fully.

In the same way, it's obvious that he uses John Williams superman theme. He certainly feels closer to Williams style than Zimmer. 


Look , we're getting a soundtrack with themes by John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman and Junkie XL , how cool is that? I can't wait to see the epic end credits roll with all these names :D 

(btw , I've seen some clips of the movie and the Elfman soundtrack sound pretty good ! and wonderwoman theme in danny's hands sound pretty good )


----------



## rpaillot

Fugdup said:


> I kinda thought the movie looked like a disaster from the beginning.
> Nothing against Elfman, but this sounds like an entirely different universe.
> I've just listened to both tracks several times and i find it less memorable and exciting than a well-layered percussion hit. I guess it might work in the context of the movie (if you've stayed away from DC movies for the past 15 years)
> And how is the WW theme gonna fit into all of this? Won't be surprised if he's come up with a new one for her, which would be sad.
> 
> Oh well..



Sorry but.... all DC movies must have scores that are similar in style ? If yes, that's kinda sad for originality.


----------



## Guffy

rpaillot said:


> Sorry but.... all DC movies must have scores that are similar in style ? If yes, that's kinda sad for originality.


If by similar, you mean a red line, or anything that makes you feel like the movie you're watching is related to MoS and BvS, then yes. Originality? Yeah, the new theme is very original. Never heard anything like it.


----------



## Grizzlymv

rpaillot said:


> Sorry but.... all DC movies must have scores that are similar in style ? If yes, that's kinda sad for originality.


Different colors is ok (as we heard in the clip for Wonder Woman). Different language when you're in a sequel, that's a different story. 

Expanding themes with new ones to match the growing story, make sense. That's what Jablonsky did on the first 3 Transformers movies. But I don't think it would have made sense to have another composer coming in for #3 and start using the Transformers G1 theme from the 1980's TV show. For Movie #1 ok. #4 could as well since it was kind of a reboot. 

In the case of Justice League, if it would be the first in the serie, that would be fine to bring back classic themes. But since it's the sequel of the sequel when you had a whole bunch of thematic material that were consistant up until now, doesn't make sense to go in a totally different thematic direction and deny anything that existed before, no matter how cool and awesome using classic themes that people love could be in terms of marketing. Adapting the existing ones, with Elfman's signature and style would have done it. But that's just my 2 cents as a cinephile.


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## rpaillot

Grizzlymv said:


> Different colors is ok (as we heard in the clip for Wonder Woman). Different language when you're in a sequel, that's a different story.
> 
> Expanding themes with new ones to match the growing story, make sense. That's what Jablonsky did on the first 3 Transformers movies. But I don't think it would have made sense to have another composer coming in for #3 and start using the Transformers G1 theme from the 1980's TV show. For Movie #1 ok. #4 could as well since it was kind of a reboot.
> 
> In the case of Justice League, if it would be the first in the serie, that would be fine to bring back classic themes. But since it's the sequel of the sequel when you had a whole bunch of thematic material that were consistant up until now, doesn't make sense to go in a totally different thematic direction and deny anything that existed before, no matter how cool and awesome using classic themes that people love could be in terms of marketing. Adapting the existing ones, with Elfman's signature and style would have done it. But that's just my 2 cents as a cinephile.



I honestly don't care too much. First because I don't think Justice League is a "sequel" in the traditional sense . ( Lost World is truly a sequel to Jurassic park. Matrix 2/3 are sequels, ok old movies ) Here.... it's just a weird mixture of all the superheroes together. Plus Batman's character is way different from Nolan's one, so why using HZ theme? ( I don't remember fully of BvS soundtrack, but I don't think I heard Batman's theme in this one ... I should listen again )


Second , If we were talking about movie masterpieces like Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy, I would have thought the same as you "why suddenly changing batman's theme in Dark Knight Rises?? terrible idea.."

But here, we talk about Justice League ... :D sorry I don't see this as a critical issue. Let Danny Elfman have fun with his own batman theme. And let's wait for the final result. Judging from the clips, no big JXL drums, but it's still very powerful!


----------



## J-M

rpaillot said:


> I honestly don't care too much. First because I don't think Justice League is a "sequel" in the traditional sense . ( Lost World is truly a sequel to Jurassic park. Matrix 2/3 are sequels, ok old movies ) Here.... it's just a weird mixture of all the superheroes together. Plus Batman's character is way different from Nolan's one, so why using HZ theme? ( I don't remember fully of BvS soundtrack, but I don't think I heard Batman's theme in this one ... I should listen again )
> 
> 
> Second , If we were talking about movie masterpieces like Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy, I would have thought the same as you "why suddenly changing batman's theme in Dark Knight Rises?? terrible idea.."
> 
> But here, we talk about Justice League ... :D sorry I don't see this as a critical issue. Let him have fun with his own batman theme. And let's wait for the final result



JL isn't a direct sequel, but unlike Nolan's trilogy, it's in the same cinematic universe with WW, MOS, SS and BvS. So to me it would make sense to at least try to stick to the thematic material in the previous movies (whether the movie is a masterpiece or not) and build on those (that little snippet of WW's theme sounded good though). And the Batman suite on BvS was both Zimmer and JXL, btw.  But like you said, let's wait for the movie before we get ahead of ourselves.


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## Grizzlymv

I was not referring to Nolan's movies. But Man of steel and Batman v Superman which are set in the same universe and for which Zimmer and JxL provided themes already (not related to other movies). As MrLinsi said, doesn't matter how good or bad a movie/story/music is. If there's a universe already in place, technically you should keep it otherwise it's no longer part of the same family but rather a movie on its own, which justice league isnt. Anyway. Let's see with the movie.


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## Darren Durann

MrLinssi said:


> JL isn't a direct sequel, but unlike Nolan's trilogy, it's in the same cinematic universe with WW, MOS, SS and BvS. So to me it would make sense to at least try to stick to the thematic material in the previous movies (whether the movie is a masterpiece or not) and build on those (that little snippet of WW's theme sounded good though). And the Batman suite on BvS was both Zimmer and JXL, btw.  But like you said, let's wait for the movie before we get ahead of ourselves.



This is how I feel...to qualify, I love the Man of Steel soundtrack and consider the Batman vs Superman score to be really meh. I do feel the main themes should be present, I just won't be going to see the movie because

a) Batman vs Superman was pretty bad all the way around imo and a big disappointment for me and
b) no Green Lantern?

In fact, I personally think Marvel's been wiping the floor with the DC movies. The Dark Knight trilogy was excellent, Man of Steel great (for me)...I really haven't been much into anything from the latter since. Including Wonder Woman, which just seemed like more of the same with not much imagination involved. The movie too.

But hey that's just me, more power to fans.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Danny Elfman's JL sounds great! The full soundtrack is out and I would encourage people to actually listen to the album before discussing. 

I am a fan of both their music (Hans and Danny). And it was a thrilling experience to hear Elfman's Batman theme come back as well as a nod to Williams Superman. If you love film music, how can you not like this? 

Anyway...

It was hard enough for Hans (in a good way) to crack a new world for Batman in Nolan's films, he was asked to do it again with JXL. And MOS was great too (movie, not so much!). I love Hans's Batman and I love Danny's Batman too. 

Hey, I am not complaining! We get to hear all of it in different films. It is just fantastic music all across. All of these guys are at the top of their game and one is not better than the other. 

Danny Elfman is in top form, as always with Justice League.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Come on guys...you don't like this?


----------



## Darren Durann

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Come on guys...you don't like this?




This was okay. I have to be rigorously honest though, I have heard much more emotional-provoking pieces of music. Plus, I'm not the biggest fan of Elfman to begin with.

I'm also weird in that I actually liked what Jackman did for the Captain America movies, especially Winter Soldier; also I LOVE Dark Knight, Dark World, and Man of Steel as soundtracks. So my tastes probably are different from manifold folks here.

I don't hear anything that sticks with me at all, in fact I was glad when it was over. I can't say that for the abovementioned. No offense meant to fans at all.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Darren Durann said:


> This was okay. I have to be rigorously honest though, I have heard much more emotional-provoking pieces of music. Plus, I'm not the biggest fan of Elfman to begin with.
> 
> I'm also weird in that I actually liked what Jackman did for the Captain America movies, especially Winter Soldier; also I LOVE Dark Knight, Dark World, and Man of Steel as soundtracks. So my tastes probably are different from manifold folks here.
> 
> I don't hear anything that sticks with me at all, in fact I was glad when it was over. I can't say that for the abovementioned. No offense meant to fans at all.



Fair enough! For the most part I like the other scores you mentioned as well. Loved Hans's work on Batman. Winter Soldier had some good moments. 

But, I also love Elfman's work and this score is really thrilling for me for various reasons. In the above cue, I love how I am hearing his original Batman theme after decades. 

To an Elfman and leitmotif scoring fan, this is gold! 

I love these type of scores also because of the complexity they bring with orchestration and in some cases virtuoso writing. It really hits me on an emotional level, just as the other scores do for you. I love the rich musical tapestry it brings to me as a film score fan. 

I think both type of music work for films. I like the strong POV of Danny as well as Hans. They bring a certain dramatic weight in their own ways. They are great dramatists. 

I am sorry to hear that you do not like Danny Elfman's work. I on the other hand love it. His score The Hulk was another masterpiece, very underrated.


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## Darren Durann

Tanuj Tiku said:


> I am sorry to hear that you do not like Danny Elfman's work. I on the other hand love it. His score The Hulk was another masterpiece, very underrated.



Uh-oh, you just helped me remember that he wrote that score. I like Beetlejuice and Terminator Salvation, too. All excellent scores.

Soooo....I guess I do like Danny Elfman's music lol! Thanks for helping me remember. He's great....

oh wait he did some of the Age of Ultron too huh, good music!


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## Darren Durann

(sheepishly) Maybe I'd better give that JL clip another try.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Darren Durann said:


> (sheepishly) Maybe I'd better give that JL clip another try.



Well, just listen to the album for a bit if you like. May be that cue is not the best example if you don't know of his older Batman theme (1989 Tim Burton film) or did not like that score. 

To me it's a classic score and theme! 

Anyway, I am sure you will like some of his music as you said. 

The Simpsons? No?


----------



## NoamL

I love Winter Soldier! Couldn’t believe people panned that score. Jackman doesn’t miss.


----------



## J-M

NoamL said:


> I love Winter Soldier! Couldn’t believe people panned that score. Jackman doesn’t miss.



The Winter Soldier's theme is very...disturbing.


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## Darren Durann

MrLinssi said:


> The Winter Soldier's theme is very...disturbing.



The Winter Soldier soundtrack is one that actually benefitted from synths as well as the traditional orchestra. It was refreshing how some of the best parts not only prominent synths, but in a way that (lucky for us) didn't veer too far into the Hans lane. Jackman tried to do his own thing on WS and I would say it succeeded, most especially in the movie. Civil War wasn't quite as good, but I'm miffed at the negative reactions. That was a good score, with some seriously memorable themes.

I so loved how they opened WS with Silvestri's Copland homage from the First Avenger (strangely, as accomplished and finely composed as the latter was by Alan, I liked WS better).


----------



## Grizzlymv

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Come on guys...you don't like this?




As a standalone score, it's pretty good. Very Elfman and there's few moments in there that I liked quite a lot. Really not sure how it will fit with the movie though. When I heard that Superman theme, it was just so wierd....couldn't visualize it with the Superman we have in Snyder's version. Both batman and superman in that score sounds very cartoonish (especially Superman) which contrast with the usual realistic world Snyder offered so far. Considering how well he managed to bring the Wonder Woman theme under his own color and style, I believe the same could have been done for the other characters too to preserve their thematic identities. An otherwise excellent score that I'll enjoy listening on its own, but for maybe the wrong movie.


----------



## Farkle

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Come on guys...you don't like this?




Oh, man, that classic Vintage Elfman brass swell at :43 seconds, into the Batman theme. Goosebumps on this end. Absolutely some classic Elfman moments. That brought a smile to my face. 

Mike


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Grizzlymv said:


> As a standalone score, it's pretty good. Very Elfman and there's few moments in there that I liked quite a lot. Really not sure how it will fit with the movie though. When I heard that Superman theme, it was just so wierd....couldn't visualize it with the Superman we have in Snyder's version. Both batman and superman in that score sounds very cartoonish (especially Superman) which contrast with the usual realistic world Snyder offered so far. Considering how well he managed to bring the Wonder Woman theme under his own color and style, I believe the same could have been done for the other characters too to preserve their thematic identities. An otherwise excellent score that I'll enjoy listening on its own, but for maybe the wrong movie.



Well, nothing is realistic in Snyder's film, anymore than any other superhero film as such. I get that the new films have a more darker tone but I find them far less realistic than Nolan's films for example. They were very much grounded. Not the new ones. It is a different kind of fantasy. Nolan's films felt like crime drama which happens to have Batman in it. Except may be Batman Begins. 

I don't think there is anything cartoonish about those themes because you could say the same about Star Wars today. Where I agree with you is that, we are used to the older sonic space and themes which already defined the characters and it may seem like a big U-turn mid series. 

But, my guess is that the tone of the film has changed. May be the film has made some turns as well. We will just have to wait and see. 

They did that with the new Thor as well. The first one was terrible for me. The new Thor is great with another cool score. I really like the score in the film. So, because these series are so stretched out, they can change the direction in between. 

In any case, I am very happy with Danny Elfman's score and I don't think the themes returning will be a major problem. We will just have to wait and see.


----------



## Consona

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Danny Elfman is in top form, as always with Justice League.


Using nearly identical Avengers theme for Justice League is a top form? It's actually really painful to listen to that.


----------



## AdamKmusic

From what I listened to last night, only a few seconds of a few cues I liked the production of the tracks. Nice and clear and not over produced, need to take a proper listen on my monitors at some point today!


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## Tanuj Tiku

Consona said:


> Using nearly identical Avengers theme for Justice League is a top form? It's actually really painful to listen to that.




They do not sound nearly identical to me. There are some similarities in the tone and spirit of the music (similar subject, genre, historical context etc) but I would think it is a bit of nit picking to think both are nearly identical.


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## AdamKmusic

I'm hearing a lot of The Hulk in this soundtrack


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## Consona

Tanuj Tiku said:


> They do not sound nearly identical to me.


Listen to the main brass motive...



Even "ordinary" listeners can immediately recognize how similar it is.



AdamKmusic said:


> I'm hearing a lot of The Hulk in this soundtrack



There are Avengers parts, there are Spider-man parts, Hulk parts, TV Flash parts, Williams' Superman, Elfman's Batman... Yet there's no MoS and BvS music! It's so vexing, it's crazy. The film that's a direct sequel to these films, whose soundtracks were highly praised, and there's everything else but the MoS and BvS music. How is this even possible I don't know, absolutely absurd. There's more Marvel music in this DC soundtrack than in Marvel films. Makes me quite speechless.

Like, ok, every composer repeats himself in some regard, but... He could have used and modified all the DCEU music or take inspiration anywhere else. But making Justice League fricking main theme so similar to Avengers is... I don't know what to say.

I feel like somewhere on Junkie XL's harddrive, there's a theme he spend some good hours or even days on, that I bet my ass, would have made a lot of fans really happy.

IMO, Hans Zimmer has left one movie too early. Don't get me wrong, Danny is a terrific composer, this is mainly an argument of continuity, since all those recycled Marvel themes and Elfman's sometimes rather campy style of music are quite out of the domain of this Snyder's trilogy.

The funny thing is... The score itself is great, actually! But it feels it's in a wrong movie. I don't mean it won't match the picture, Danny is very good at this, but tone-wise (MoS ans BvS vs this) and theme-wise (omg, I won't comment on this again), it's off.

But I still haven't seen the movie, so I'm really curious how it's going to work in the context!


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

I still think it is a bit nit picking to take a small motif and think that it is nearly identical to Silvestri's Avengers theme over all. There can be many such examples. I suppose, it really bothers you. Point taken.

I agree that it is a big u-turn. I don't remember this happening before on movies where the themes were abandoned totally mid-series (except Wonder Woman).

The new music most certainly can fit Snyder's vision (In the sense that such music can exist with these visuals - plenty of films have done it). No problem! However, I agree that a tone and soundscape was already set before. So, this will certainly cause irritation to many fans. And I agree with you that this is the main argument.

I am not sure when Zack Snyder left the project and I do not have any details as to why JXL is not doing this one and under what circumstances the switch was made. It is not my place to question. I am sure, it must have been a hard decision for everyone. Specially, JXL who has worked so hard on these movies. Hans had already announced his 'retirement'.

But, if Joss Whedon substantially changed the 'tone' of the film then it could be the case that the tone of the music was changed too.

We could think of endless possibilities, none of which we know anything about. So, I would like to stay clear of that.

I hugely admire and respect Hans, JXL and Danny Elfman. As an Elfman fan, I am just very happy to see him return, even if in shaky external circumstances. I really like the score. I am not a fan of the new series of DC movies. Batman ended with Nolan's films for me. I did not warm up to the new films. Not even Wonder Woman. Cool theme though!

Anyway, I do understand the concerns of fans who loved these new movies. I sympathize but for me it is a great new album from one of my favourite film composers. It is easier for me to get over this because I never really liked the new films.


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## Darren Durann

Wonder Woman does have a great theme.


----------



## rpaillot

Consona said:


> Listen to the main brass motive...
> 
> 
> 
> Even "ordinary" listeners can immediately recognize how similar it is.
> 
> 
> There are Avengers parts, there are Spider-man parts, Hulk parts, TV Flash parts, Williams' Superman, Elfman's Batman... Yet there's no MoS and BvS music! It's so vexing, it's crazy. The film that's a direct sequel to these films, whose soundtracks were highly praised, and there's everything else but the MoS and BvS music. How is this even possible I don't know, absolutely absurd. There's more Marvel music in this DC soundtrack than in Marvel films. Makes me quite speechless.
> 
> Like, ok, every composer repeats himself in some regard, but... He could have used and modified all the DCEU music or take inspiration anywhere else. But making Justice League fricking main theme so similar to Avengers is... I don't know what to say.
> 
> I feel like somewhere on Junkie XL's harddrive, there's a theme he spend some good hours or even days on, that I bet my ass, would have made a lot of fans really happy.
> 
> IMO, Hans Zimmer has left one movie too early. Don't get me wrong, Danny is a terrific composer, this is mainly an argument of continuity, since all those recycled Marvel themes and Elfman's sometimes rather campy style of music are quite out of the domain of this Snyder's trilogy.
> 
> The funny thing is... The score itself is great, actually! But it feels it's in a wrong movie. I don't mean it won't match the picture, Danny is very good at this, but tone-wise (MoS ans BvS vs this) and theme-wise (omg, I won't comment on this again), it's off.
> 
> But I still haven't seen the movie, so I'm really curious how it's going to work in the context!




I can hear the "avengers" kind of motif in virtually any soundtracks from the 90s until now. It's a classic chords change that evoke a heroic / adventure emotion. I love Alan Silvestri's theme but he is not the sole owner of this chord change


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## Darren Durann

You know, my position has changed radically. I feel I unintentionally insulted the music of Elfman, and am embarrassed.

Danny Elfman is a top pro with many awards for great scores to his credit. I'd put money that this soundtrack pays off not just in the cinema, but upon repeated listenings.

After listening to a ton of his music since my ignorant remarks, I realize how excellent he really is. I prefer Rozsa, Herrmann, Alfred Newman, Williams, and Goldsmith....but that will never take away from Elfman's very real accomplishments. Bravo to a maestro!


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## Tanuj Tiku

Darren Durann said:


> You know, my position has changed radically. I feel I unintentionally insulted the music of Elfman, and am embarrassed.
> 
> Danny Elfman is a top pro with many awards for great scores to his credit. I'd put money that this soundtrack pays off not just in the cinema, but upon repeated listenings.
> 
> After listening to a ton of his music since my ignorant remarks, I realize how excellent he really is. I prefer Rozsa, Herrmann, Alfred Newman, Williams, and Goldsmith....but that will never take away from Elfman's very real accomplishments. Bravo to a maestro!



Glad you 'found' Danny Elfman's music, if you know what I mean.

He is one of the greats for me. And he is also part of the group of composers who should just be handed an oscar immediately, irrespective. 

As Daryl Griffith said to me and I agree with him very much, Thomas Newman is the greatest living film composer to not have got an oscar. 

But I secretly wish to add a few more to that


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## dcoscina

Darren Durann said:


> You know, my position has changed radically. I feel I unintentionally insulted the music of Elfman, and am embarrassed.
> 
> Danny Elfman is a top pro with many awards for great scores to his credit. I'd put money that this soundtrack pays off not just in the cinema, but upon repeated listenings.
> 
> After listening to a ton of his music since my ignorant remarks, I realize how excellent he really is. I prefer Rozsa, Herrmann, Alfred Newman, Williams, and Goldsmith....but that will never take away from Elfman's very real accomplishments. Bravo to a maestro!


I had a listen through this soundtrack and none of it really stuck with me. But I'm a huge fan of Elfman's work and cite Edward Scissorhands as one of the best scores of the 90s (as well as Nightmare before christmas, his triumph deluxe). 

It's clear that it's not the talent or skill these days but executive decisions that lead composers to writing this kind of stuff. It's largely lacking the bold melodies and harmonies that littered the film score landscape for several decades. but producers and directors no longer want that even though I bet most audiences DO want film music to grab them. 

Whenever I hear something like this and know the composer's canon, I know it's not that they suddenly lost their ability, it's from outside sources that govern their output. This is why guys like Don Davis don't write music for film any longer. They just walked away. Same applies to Goldenthal who only scores his wife's movies nowadays.


----------



## Darren Durann

Perhaps he didn't go so much for the big themes, etc. because that whole style is done to death, with Zimmer...I hate say this but to me it seemed like a good thing he stopped doing superhero soundtracks after Batman vs. Superman (and this is a person who loves Man of Steel and Dark Knight, not to mention at least half a dozen of his other scores). Besides the bolder themes, I didn't think much of that B vs S as a score (and way less about the movie itself, the latter of which I felt got kind of bitched out by Civil War). No disrespect meant to fans.

I think he might have written it the way he did for the same reason Alfred Newman didn't score his "Jesus flick", "Greatest Story Ever Told" in the by then already-beaten-to-death Ben Hur style. He might have felt it was time to be courageous and offer up more subtlety.

Of course I'm just conjecturing and could be dead wrong.


----------



## patrick76

dcoscina said:


> This is why guys like Don Davis don't write music for film any longer. They just walked away. Same applies to Goldenthal who only scores his wife's movies nowadays.


Actually Don Davis is scoring some films again. Certainly not big Hollywood films though. I do miss his work as well as Goldenthal's. Really great stuff.


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## Dave Connor

Darren Durann said:


> Alfred Newman didn't score his "Jesus flick", "Greatest Story Ever Told" in the by then already-beaten-to-death Ben Hur style. He might have felt it was time to be courageous and offer up more subtlety.


Ben-Hur may be the single most subtle film score since sound was invented. I watched it and listened on headphones once and was astonished at the subtle detail. Beautiful things you didn't even know were there are going on constantly, creating a tapestry seemingly designed for the subconscious. It's not of course. What it is is the work of a concert composer (Classical) who is simply writing the way he writes.

This reminds me of the criticism that guys like Hans Zimmer get: their large gestures or go-to styles are seen and heard as everything they're doing. Everybody knows what a big Miklos Rosza cue sounds like (same as a big Zimmer or Williams cue or Beethoven for that matter) but these guys are doing so much more and much more often then their signature sound devices.



Darren Durann said:


> Of course I'm just conjecturing and could be dead wrong.


 You're not alone. In fact you offered more specificity than is often found here. The reason that cogent, outlined, insightful criticisms are often missing at v.i., is that people either aren't listening or are simply unable to hear the parts that make up the whole, so they say things like ..._the_ _same old crap. _A statement void of reference to any musical properties. Try finding a review in a high school newspaper as empty as that. You won't since flunking classes is generally avoided by those with an ounce of energy and intention.


----------



## Darren Durann

I practically worship Ben-Hur (don't miss the new Tadlow re-recording, incredible sound!), Sodom and Gomorrah, El Cid, King of Kings...all those scores. They are terrific. Miklos Rozsa is a deity to me. 

Newman teamed up with Bernard for the "Egyptian" which is at times jaw droppingly good.

All that old, great stuff. Those men were coming from guys like Tchaikovsky, Walton, Mahler, Wagner. Then there's the next generation with Goldsmith bringing forth the 20th century goods on Planet of the Apes.

LOVE the old stuff best!


----------



## Dave Connor

Darren Durann said:


> I practically worship Ben-Hur (don't miss the new Tadlow re-recording, incredible sound!), Sodom and Gomorrah, El Cid, King of Kings...all those scores. They are terrific. Miklos Rozsa is a deity to me.
> 
> Newman teamed up with Bernard for the "Egyptian" which is at times jaw droppingly good.
> 
> All that old, great stuff. Those men were coming from guys like Tchaikovsky, Walton, Mahler, Wagner. Then there's the next generatioNewmantrulyn with Goldsmith bringing forth the 20th century goods on Planet of the Apes.
> 
> LOVE the old stuff best!


Apologies if I misunderstood your post. Rozsa and Alfred Newman truly great composers defining their era in many ways including technically. I will look for the recording you mentioned.


----------



## GtrString

Been a Marvel fan for more than 30 years, and I did hear the Justice League soundtrack on Spotify, today. I found it a bit hard to hang my hat on something in particular. But then again, soundtracks are married to picture, so I'll listen again saturday when I'll go see the movie with my daughter. I'd bet something will happen to my ears. At least, this thread have made me interested in forming an opinion.


----------



## Darren Durann

Dave Connor said:


> Apologies if I misunderstood your post. Rozsa and Alfred Newman truly great composers defining their era in many ways including technically. I will look for the recording you mentioned.



@Dave Connor , the Tadlow re-recordings of both Ben Hur and Sodom and Gomorrah are outstanding. Also don't miss out on the re-recording of Conan the Destroyer if you're into Basil's music (skip the Barbarian re-recording, as it fell victim to the loudness wars). Really rewarding stuff my friend.


----------



## J-M

Just saw the movie. I think hating DC is cool nowadays, since pretty much all the reviews I read, said, that it was a horrible mess that should have never been made. I think the movie (while the plot was laughably predictable) was pretty okay, definitely a step-up from BvS and (ugh) Suicide Squad. At some points the characters were acting so out of...character, that it felt weird. And I think they downgraded Batman a bit. And the dialogue at times almost made me laugh out loud, and not in the good way.  Danny's soundtrack worked pretty well too, but at one particular scene the music didn't feel quite right. Well, that's my opinion anyways.


----------



## Dave Connor

I finally saw Batman vrs Superman last night (I had caught the end title previously which knocked my socks off.) I am completely mystified by criticisms of the score. There's just so much great writing and blending of and changing of style. All in service to the picture. One minute you're hearing beautiful, rich, low string textures and the next, synths howling in the upper register. Both making ultimate sense to the ambience and emotion of the story and visuals. The score is also extremely organic to the visuals and seems to climb out of the street sounds and story simultaneously. And man does HZ know how to come in with a cue or what? Some of the entrances are just gorgeous while also being thematic but most of all, dead on in support of and heightening of the story. Once again, hardly a repetition of earlier work. I know JXL worked on it as well. My comments are what to my ears are clearly HZ since not a single soul can write like that guy any more than they can Williams, Goldsmith or Newman (any of them) etc.


----------



## JohnG

I just skimmed through parts of this thread and I am astonished at the casual dismissals, vitriolic attacks, sneering and other condemnation in it.

Very few people have any idea what the process is like for a large-budget, conspicuous action picture like this, with franchise possibilities (and burdens). The tidal processes could swamp anyone but those with experience, fortitude, creative confidence, and ungodly stamina.

Even my own career has exposed me to some titanically difficult situations; I don't like everyone's music out there but I am very slow to start attacking it.

I am not saying we have to become sycophants or worshipful, just because someone is famous or the budget is large; not at all. I can't stand the music of some very famous people (in fact we sang a piece last night by a famous choral composer that was so hideously sappy, sentimental, and revoltingly cheesy that I kind of threw up in my mouth. Even though it is well-crafted revolting cheese).

I think there's a way to raise artistic questions without adopting a haughty, contemptuous stance. These are just people, the schedules they work under are by definition impossible, and they have the opinions of many, many people to satisfy or at least contend with. Not to mention the labour of producing 90 minutes or more of music for one of these things.

And sometimes on the dub stage a director or producer will edit the music or turn off some / many of the tracks ("turn off the percussion"), or use a cue in a spot in the movie the composer never dreamed of, with the result that the music can come off as awkward or "wrong."

So by all means, criticise if you don't like it, but consider that few of us have any idea what it's actually like to work on a project like this.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

JohnG said:


> I just skimmed through parts of this thread and I am astonished at the casual dismissals, vitriolic attacks, sneering and other condemnation in it.
> 
> Very few people have any idea what the process is like for a large-budget, conspicuous action picture like this, with franchise possibilities (and burdens). The tidal processes could swamp anyone but those with experience, fortitude, creative confidence, and ungodly stamina.
> 
> Even my own career has exposed me to some titanically difficult situations; I don't like everyone's music out there but I am very slow to start attacking it.
> 
> I am not saying we have to become sycophants or worshipful, just because someone is famous or the budget is large; not at all. I can't stand the music of some very famous people (in fact we sang a piece last night by a famous choral composer that was so hideously sappy, sentimental, and revoltingly cheesy that I kind of threw up in my mouth. Even though it is well-crafted revolting cheese).
> 
> I think there's a way to raise artistic questions without adopting a haughty, contemptuous stance. These are just people, the schedules they work under are by definition impossible, and they have the opinions of many, many people to satisfy or at least contend with. Not to mention the labour of producing 90 minutes or more of music for one of these things.
> 
> And sometimes on the dub stage a director or producer will edit the music or turn off some / many of the tracks ("turn off the percussion"), or use a cue in a spot in the movie the composer never dreamed of, with the result that the music can come off as awkward or "wrong."
> 
> So by all means, criticise if you don't like it, but consider that few of us have any idea what it's actually like to work on a project like this.




That is just the internet. I have read comments on Facebook saying how Elfman's score is garbage and nothing is memorable and that it is total crap. 

It is very hard to not punch these guys in the face as a musician. 

It is terrible to see that people on forums and social media who are associated with music professionally dissing composers and good work like the Justice League score. 

I can understand comments about the change of tone and them preferring another sound and missing Hans's themes but saying that the music has no structure, is boring, garbage and lacks inventiveness is such an epic load of crap. 

There are very few people in the world who can deliver a score of this complexity and musicianship. 

And for the record - there ARE memorable themes in the score. Iconic themes like Batman and Superman. Which have been more or less universally accepted has some of the best themes ever written. Very much so but some people just don't like them because the earlier themes were abandoned. That is different than saying nothing stands out and it is crap. 

Where is the respect for musicians and understanding of music? It is so easy to dismiss things on the internet. 

There is a way to conduct a meaningful discussion about what is appropriate for this franchise in terms of the music but it is another thing to totally dismiss Elfman's score as garbage. 

Wow!


----------



## Mr. Ha

Well Elfman has publicly said some pretty bad stuff about other composers. Recently he said that reboots should never create a new theme and mentioned spider man and batman.


----------



## J-M

JohnG said:


> I just skimmed through parts of this thread and I am astonished at the casual dismissals, vitriolic attacks, sneering and other condemnation in it.
> 
> Very few people have any idea what the process is like for a large-budget, conspicuous action picture like this, with franchise possibilities (and burdens). The tidal processes could swamp anyone but those with experience, fortitude, creative confidence, and ungodly stamina.
> 
> Even my own career has exposed me to some titanically difficult situations; I don't like everyone's music out there but I am very slow to start attacking it.
> 
> I am not saying we have to become sycophants or worshipful, just because someone is famous or the budget is large; not at all. I can't stand the music of some very famous people (in fact we sang a piece last night by a famous choral composer that was so hideously sappy, sentimental, and revoltingly cheesy that I kind of threw up in my mouth. Even though it is well-crafted revolting cheese).
> 
> I think there's a way to raise artistic questions without adopting a haughty, contemptuous stance. These are just people, the schedules they work under are by definition impossible, and they have the opinions of many, many people to satisfy or at least contend with. Not to mention the labour of producing 90 minutes or more of music for one of these things.
> 
> And sometimes on the dub stage a director or producer will edit the music or turn off some / many of the tracks ("turn off the percussion"), or use a cue in a spot in the movie the composer never dreamed of, with the result that the music can come off as awkward or "wrong."
> 
> So by all means, criticise if you don't like it, but consider that few of us have any idea what it's actually like to work on a project like this.



I'd give this post multiple likes if I could.


----------



## Dave Connor

Anytime I make a comment it’s in the exact context John G mentions: as a practitioner who knows how difficult it is to make movie magic. It’s one thing to do a good or even very good job. _Great_ next to impossible. It’s quite another to make a bold innovative statement that advances the art of both _film_ and _music_ forward. This is what guys such as Goldsmith and Morricone have done and yes Hans Zimmer. They lift things beyond the constraints of the medium - we’ll beyond the requirements of doing just a good or adequate job.


----------



## Zhao Shen

JohnG said:


> I just skimmed through parts of this thread and I am astonished at the casual dismissals, vitriolic attacks, sneering and other condemnation in it.
> 
> Very few people have any idea what the process is like for a large-budget, conspicuous action picture like this, with franchise possibilities (and burdens). The tidal processes could swamp anyone but those with experience, fortitude, creative confidence, and ungodly stamina.
> 
> Even my own career has exposed me to some titanically difficult situations; I don't like everyone's music out there but I am very slow to start attacking it.
> 
> I am not saying we have to become sycophants or worshipful, just because someone is famous or the budget is large; not at all. I can't stand the music of some very famous people (in fact we sang a piece last night by a famous choral composer that was so hideously sappy, sentimental, and revoltingly cheesy that I kind of threw up in my mouth. Even though it is well-crafted revolting cheese).
> 
> I think there's a way to raise artistic questions without adopting a haughty, contemptuous stance. These are just people, the schedules they work under are by definition impossible, and they have the opinions of many, many people to satisfy or at least contend with. Not to mention the labour of producing 90 minutes or more of music for one of these things.
> 
> And sometimes on the dub stage a director or producer will edit the music or turn off some / many of the tracks ("turn off the percussion"), or use a cue in a spot in the movie the composer never dreamed of, with the result that the music can come off as awkward or "wrong."
> 
> So by all means, criticise if you don't like it, but consider that few of us have any idea what it's actually like to work on a project like this.



The thing is, Elfman has been attached to large projects before and done wonders. Unless he was temped to a pulp, this is simply not up to his own standards. Sure, I have no idea what it's like to score a Hollywood blockbuster. Does that mean I'm not allowed to have a strong opinion on the quality of a blockbuster soundtrack and compare it to other blockbuster soundtracks?

I haven't perused the entire thread so I don't know the extent of the insults people are tossing out, but in the end a lot of people just expected more from a legendary composer. No one's saying that Elfman wrote the score in a day and called it quits. Most sensible people understand that lots of time and hard work went into the score. But your comment seems to imply that in order to make a well-founded critique, you must acknowledge the effort that went into the score, and this is simply not the case.


----------



## NoamL

Here's a question - why is Justice League getting dragged over the coals for this but not the new Thor movie? How many Thor themes have there been? Patrick Doyle wrote a perfectly good one in the original movie which I can't recall right now... and then Silvestri wrote his own motif for Avengers



and Brian Tyler had his own thing in Dark World:



I think most of this is just angst at how the DCU is not turning out too great. Don't blame the composers for that.


----------



## AR

I love what Elfman did. Finally someone who got the balls to say it out loud. Unfortunately DC tries to be a neverending franchise as Marvel. Why? Nolan layed down such a strong path and then it all got diminshed by CGI and monsters. Where is the simplicity and purity of a Joker who says something like: "I wanna ride that truck". Where is the dignity? Wake me up guys when that stupid 2020 filming period is over and we all go back to old skool.


----------



## Mr. Ha

NoamL said:


> Here's a question - why is Justice League getting dragged over the coals for this but not the new Thor movie? How many Thor themes have there been? Patrick Doyle wrote a perfectly good one in the original movie which I can't recall right now... and then Silvestri wrote his own motif for Avengers



The thing is that the Marvel movies have never had a consistent musical identity, thematically and that has always been a bit of an issue. The DC movies however did have that consistency and that's why it's disheartening that they just threw all that out the window when Wheedon came and took over and started to make it more like the marvel movies (which I really enjoy). I think Elfman has done some really good scores but Justice League just isn't good IMO, it's not terrible, it just is and doesn't do much. The lack of themes is jarring and the use of old themes that has nothing to do with these new versions of the characters takes me out of the movie/music and is just very strange.

Another thing that bothers me is how Elfman talks about other composers and basically says that their work isn't valid.


----------



## Atarion Music

You may attack me if you like but, I just saw the Justice League movie and I enjoyed the movie despite all the critics. However, the music seemed way out of place to me. The soundtrack was good as a stand alone 90's hero blockbuster but I think the contemporary style ruined the climax moments of the movie. In this day and age superheroes need a memorable theme. There was no heroic theme during the final team-up battles or nothing. Sadly the soundtrack contributed as nothing more than an anchor on a sinking ship. I thought the movie was supposed to be about regaining hope and the first members of the league coming together. The music made the movie feel empty...sorry

It was very forgettable....


----------



## Atarion Music

AR said:


> I love what Elfman did. Finally someone who got the balls to say it out loud. Unfortunately DC tries to be a neverending franchise as Marvel. Why? Nolan layed down such a strong path and then it all got diminshed by CGI and monsters. Where is the simplicity and purity of a Joker who says something like: "I wanna ride that truck". Where is the dignity? Wake me up guys when that stupid 2020 filming period is over and we all go back to old skool.


I just wanted to say, CGI is a must for the Justice league or ANY powerful superhero or villian. There is no way to make a Parademon without it. There is no way to show the level of destruction these heroes can do and there would be no enemy strong enough to face them. That is unless you nerfed all the members to human abilities. But they wouldn't be super if you do that. The only reason why it worked in Nolan's trilogy. Is simply because NO-ONE had any superpowers lol


----------



## Atarion Music

NoamL said:


> Here's a question - why is Justice League getting dragged over the coals for this but not the new Thor movie? How many Thor themes have there been? Patrick Doyle wrote a perfectly good one in the original movie which I can't recall right now... and then Silvestri wrote his own motif for Avengers
> 
> 
> 
> and Brian Tyler had his own thing in Dark World:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of this is just angst at how the DCU is not turning out too great. Don't blame the composers for that.





Brian Tyler created a MODERN THOR theme. Big drums, Blaring horns epic strings and this is what makes it epic. It also have a memorable theme. It's uplifting, But Justice league's Soundtrack is........


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Mr. Ha said:


> Well Elfman has publicly said some pretty bad stuff about other composers. Recently he said that reboots should never create a new theme and mentioned spider man and batman.




I have not read any interview or seen a video where he has said nasty stuff about other composers. 

Where can I find this? 

As for themes, I think he was just stating his opinion and not trashing any composer. 

And even if he spoke badly of another composer - does that mean based on that reasoning we can justify trashing his music? 

What do you really mean by your post?


----------



## Mr. Ha

In this interview for instance he says Batman has only ever had one theme and says that Zimmer did some nice rhythmic stuff but nothing more. There's also another interview where he says the only reason that composers create new themes for reboots is their ego.

I think his score was rather bland and uninspiring so if someone doesn't like what they hear, they can say whatever they want about his work. When the BVS OST came out last year that got trashed as well.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Atarion Music said:


> I just wanted to say, CGI is a must for the Justice league or ANY powerful superhero or villian. There is no way to make a Parademon without it. There is no way to show the level of destruction these heroes can do and there would be no enemy strong enough to face them. That is unless you nerfed all the members to human abilities. But they wouldn't be super if you do that. The only reason why it worked in Nolan's trilogy. Is simply because NO-ONE had any superpowers lol



You are right that CGI is an important part in those movies. But imo it is overused and presented to a less great effect because it feels like it is used in a exxegerated style that it is almost laughable just to look at it for me. The thing is that I believe studios rely too heavily on CGI effects in order to back up bad scripts, dialogues and forgetable casts with heroes and villians who have no character controversy anymore to present. It is like orchestration for me. It can sound and look fantastic but won´t fix a meaningless composition which has nothing really to say.

And while I think Elfman can be a composer to a great effect I feel that his new soundtrack here (I have listened meanwhile to the whole soundtrack on YT) is not really a good example of what made him great at least for me liking his older works. Sure, the live orchestra sounds good and the execution is very professional, but it feels very "un"-elfmanish at most times for me and the style of orchestration is often not letting me approach any reasons why he does this and that. Some pieces also have a very random approach of structure to me and filled with orchestrational effects all over the place but without having any musical merit and context (like the cue "friends and foes" for example).

The style of orchestration is ranging from some classic devices to the modern symphonic approach. And this devices (string ostinatos, low drums, Walls of brass) are covering the themes here in his soundtrack most of the time. It is this HZ formula or lets call it the "HZ Device" which almost every soundtrack seems to follow in a dogmatic procedure these days. 
And there is my problem: This formula and orchestration doesn´t let me detect the elfman style anymore, in particular when somebody didn´t told me that he is the composer of this soundtrack I wouldn´t even have recognized that this work is from him. Even his own classic theme was featured in a way which was imo very limited in style.

So is that a bad thing? Depends on where you come from and where your soundtrack love has its fundamentals. Elfman does here a mix of both worlds in order to cater to the modern audience and franchise. The result is for me a very standardised music language.

I remember reading an interview with Morricone a while ago where he said that *the standard of composition for film has deteriorated*. While everybody can disagree on such an opinion but hearing that from a composer of this magnitude should let you think a little while if there could be "something" true about that.


----------



## Darren Durann

One of the things I've noticed about the most dismissive is how they basically listened to the score (or parts of it) exactly once (often on their computer speakers and/or phone) and they hate it.

The first time I ever listened to Alfred Newman's "Greatest Story Ever Told" I was bummed out and bored. It seemed too uncompressed and repetitious (not to mention, I loathed the movie). Each time I listened to it again the harmony and counterpoint unfolded its treasures, not to mention some of the most memorable themes in film music history. After my fourth listen I was completely crazy about that score, one of my top five in the genre, and kicked myself for having been so childishly dismissive.

A lot of the best music around is made to be listened to with at least some sort of mindful attention. I personally go into my dark "man-cave", kick back on my recliner, and put my Sennheiser 250 headphones on.

Most people don't like to think too much today, and when it comes to music MTV most obviously reflects that. The sad thing is, many of those same folks (as long as they keep their knee-jerk attitude) will miss out on a specific type of music: the kind that will pay off progressively with each successive listen. People like that will never give themselves the opportunity to appreciate the most incredible journeys afforded by the likes of, say, Beethoven's late era Kammermusik, Mahler's later symphonies, or even Close Encounters of the Third Kind for that matter. Sad but true.

Without getting too cork-sniffy, music for me offers so many journeys. The destination isn't the point. As great old rocker Ronnie James Dio said: "...we search for the truth, we could die upon the tooth, but the thrill of just the chase is worth a lifetime".


----------



## Darren Durann

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> And there is my problem: This formula and orchestration doesn´t let me detect the elfman style anymore, in particular when somebody didn´t told me that he is the composer of this soundtrack I wouldn´t even have recognized that this work is from him. Even his own classic theme was featured in a way which was imo very limited in style.
> 
> 
> I remember reading an interview with Morricone a while ago where he said that *the standard of composition for film has deteriorated*. While everybody can disagree on such an opinion but hearing that from a composer of this magnitude should let you think a little while if there could be "something" true about that.



Reminds me of how critics lambasted Scorsese for going Hitchcock with his version of Cape Fear. The best respected critics liked the movie, but not how un-Scorsese it was. And it was a great remake regardless, imo.

As far as standards deteriorating, well, there are few scores bearing the elite quality of Ben Hur (50s movie score) or Close Encounters out there today...shoot, even in the past _decade_. But I think it's a mistake to blame the composers, as I mentioned above people don't want to think too much about movies these days (as much as I liked Civil War, for instance, the plot itself doesn't hold up against the "simply work it out over the phone" idea, and of course Jackman wrote very much in the "Dark Knight" vein...or perhaps my ears are wrong).

People don't pay money for movies and scores that require a modicum of immersion and even forgiveness, they're quicker to judge than ever. Sad truth of our times. Some of it might have to do with the influence of Punk and Grunge, as well as home made movies. When anyone can make movies and music, said movies and music become progressively more lowest common denominator.

Granted, I could be wrong about any or all of this.


----------



## J-M

@Darren Durann Definitely agree with your point about listening to songs several times and paying attention to them. But then again, there are people who are constantly searching for new music (or just have the attention span of a hamster) and therefore, if they don't immediately like a song, they'll probably skip it and never return. I actually couldn't stand some of my favorite bands at first, but for some strange reason I kept coming back.  Glad that I did though!


----------



## Atarion Music

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> You are right that CGI is an important part in those movies. But imo it is overused and presented to a less great effect because it feels like it is used in a exxegerated style that it is almost laughable just to look at it for me. The thing is that I believe studios rely too heavily on CGI effects in order to back up bad scripts, dialogues and forgetable casts with heroes and villians who have no character controversy anymore to present. It is like orchestration for me. It can sound and look fantastic but won´t fix a meaningless composition which has nothing really to say.
> 
> And while I think Elfman can be a composer to a great effect I feel that his new soundtrack here (I have listened meanwhile to the whole soundtrack on YT) is not really a good example of what made him great at least for me liking his older works. Sure, the live orchestra sounds good and the execution is very professional, but it feels very "un"-elfmanish at most times for me and the style of orchestration is often not letting me approach any reasons why he does this and that. Some pieces also have a very random approach of structure to me and filled with orchestrational effects all over the place but without having any musical merit and context (like the cue "friends and foes" for example).
> 
> The style of orchestration is ranging from some classic devices to the modern symphonic approach. And this devices (string ostinatos, low drums, Walls of brass) are covering the themes here in his soundtrack most of the time. It is this HZ formula or lets call it the "HZ Device" which almost every soundtrack seems to follow in a dogmatic procedure these days.
> And there is my problem: This formula and orchestration doesn´t let me detect the elfman style anymore, in particular when somebody didn´t told me that he is the composer of this soundtrack I wouldn´t even have recognized that this work is from him. Even his own classic theme was featured in a way which was imo very limited in style.
> 
> So is that a bad thing? Depends on where you come from and where your soundtrack love has its fundamentals. Elfman does here a mix of both worlds in order to cater to the modern audience and franchise. The result is for me a very standardised music language.
> 
> I remember reading an interview with Morricone a while ago where he said that *the standard of composition for film has deteriorated*. While everybody can disagree on such an opinion but hearing that from a composer of this magnitude should let you think a little while if there could be "something" true about that.




OH yeah,now I get it (Duh) lol I can see how its overused. I figured you meant like no CGI on any of the characters. But as for the soundtrack, Zimmer is definitely one of the founders of the modern formula when it comes to these big epic blockbuster's. In a way it's good for these types of movies. They're bland. However the music to them is also bland, Avengers, GOTG 1 and 2, MOS, WW the list could go on and on. The music SOUNDS cool but if you break them down, they're all generic. I believe this is why Zimmer's formula work for these movies. They don't seem ready or even on the same page as the music Danny Elfman created for Justice league. 

ALSO, I think the Whedon might of had his hand in how the music was to be in this movie because I see no other reason for them to change and remove all the heroes themes. 

Let's be honest here, movies aren't what they used to be anymore. There's nothing "NEW" going on in these superhero movies. We get silly movies like Thor Ragnarok and everyone believes it's the greatest movie ever. It was good, but it lacked in all areas besides comedy. That alone should tell us something about how much a viewers mind has changed over the years. We've simply settled for less in music and movie.


----------



## Darren Durann

MrLinssi said:


> @Darren Durann Definitely agree with your point about listening to songs several times and paying attention to them. But then again, there are people who are constantly searching for new music (or just have the attention span of a hamster) and therefore, if they don't immediately like a song, they'll probably skip it and never return. I actually couldn't stand some of my favorite bands at first, but for some strange reason I kept coming back.  Glad that I did though!



King Crimson (the old Fripp and Belew stuff) and 1970s Judas Priest were like that for me. Once they clicked I was (and remain) cuckoo over them.


----------



## ongoing

Atarion Music said:


> Brian Tyler created a MODERN THOR theme. Big drums, Blaring horns epic strings and this is what makes it epic. It also have a memorable theme. It's uplifting, But Justice league's Soundtrack is........


I think that’s why I like Thor the Dark World more than I should the soundtrack it just EPIC!


----------



## Darren Durann

ongoing said:


> I think that’s why I like Thor the Dark World more than I should the soundtrack it just EPIC!



I liked both the movie and score, more than the first. I haven't seen Ragnarok, partly because I'm not wild about the score, partly because I was hoping for something a bit more dramatic (and I should admit experiencing serious superhero burn out shortly after enjoying Civil War; both Dr. Strange and Wonder Woman deepened the...uhm e_strange_ment by being pretty much more of the same in many ways).

I happen to love the old Thor comics, so I'll probably check it out in the future. Justice League I'll wait for on Netflix (last DC movie I liked was MOS).

Put it this way, Punisher is WAAAY higher on my list of priorities (even after the blah of Iron Fist, Defenders, and Luke Cage the promise of Bernthal supersedes my cynicism).

But that's taking this further away from the music, apologies.


----------



## NoamL

NoamL said:


> I think most of this is just angst at how the DCU is not turning out too great. Don't blame the composers for that.



Well here it is. Monday and JLs opening weekend box office estimated at no more than 94 million. Less than Man of Steel, less than Suicide Squad, LESS THAN HALF of Marvel’s Avengers, and barely beating the R rated Logan and niche appeal Dr Strange. Leading the entertainment press to start grinding the ink for a series of “how could WB get this so wrong” articles.

No one should blame the score for this. This is all on Warner and a good deal on Snyder. The Snyderverse is so fuckin dour. I reiterate my opinion that they should throw out 70% of it and rebuild around Gal Gadot.


----------



## gsilbers

the plot thickens..


----------



## NoamL




----------



## J-M

The comment section on that video is hilarious...But that sounds nothing like Junkie XL.


----------



## Darren Durann

My s.o. took me to see it. Wow, bad. The score was fine for the movie, but I wonder if the general suck of the film itself didn't exactly do the score any favors. It was a bad movie to begin with, and Elfman must have had some idea of that when he started writing. DC has gone wrong dizzyingly fast imo. Not in anywhere near a hurry to see the upcoming Batman, Aquaman, or GLC, and after Man of Steel I was.

I lay no fault with Elfman, every composer has to score a bad film sooner or later. Rozsa had some glaring examples (check out, or actually please _don't _check out the movie "Sodom and Gomorrah"...however, don't hesitate to buy the Tadlow re-recording of the score, absolutely brilliant!). He just did his best to make it better.


----------



## NoamL

The press is now speculating that the breakeven point for JL might be 650 or 700 million which means it could lose... a lot of money.



Darren Durann said:


> Not in anywhere near a hurry to see the upcoming Batman, Aquaman, or GLC, and after Man of Steel I was.



Man, Aquaman _is so dead_. It's sad because the movie just finished shooting and there's no chance at all to save its box office performance, regardless of how good or bad it is on its own merits. I always thought the Aquaman movie was the best chance for DCU to introduce a new character people care about but now... Someone on Twitter put it best. Who would go see Aquaman when 2018 has Black Panther and Deadpool 2, _and_ the new Avengers? It's not a contest. Aquaman's audience was always going to be a subset of the people who watched Justice League. Instead of giving Aquaman a soft launch, JL is actively hurting the prospects of all followup movies except Wonder Woman 2.

The new Batman movie is toast I think. If Warner does end up having the gumption to recast mid-universe, Affleck is who will go not Cavill (although - should be both).

Black Panther looks amazing from the trailer. I think it will be huge. If Marvel stumbles anytime soon I think it will be with the new Ant Man movie that has Evangeline Lilly in it.


----------



## J-M

I wonder how many bad movies does it take for DC to realize that they are doing pretty much everything wrong?


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> The Snyderverse is so fuckin dour.


That's why I love it. No MCU type drama demolished by a stupid joke scenario. Plus I rewatched MoS and BvS and those films are just magnificent.

So, I've seen JL twice already and... Where the **** is the Snyder's cut?! Whedon's version is so disjointed, reshoots and rewrites have really bad and cringy dialogues, some really disgusting jokes and some new scenes were just needless. The movie was too short to tell any kind of story (WB's fault). The only things that saved the film for me were the actors in the roles of those characters, loved them, and some great action scenes, those underwater scenes, etc., enjoyed those tremendously. Otherwise this Whedon's version was a mess. I definitely want an hour longer Snyder's cut with a darker Cyborg arc, better dialogues, no stupid dishonorable jokes, with much more fleshed out story and characters and Junkie XL's music.

MoS and BvS were interesting, bold and epic masterpieces, JL theatrical cut was a harmless four-quadrant kids movie. WB being so intrusive is the worst thing that happened to DCEU. Forcing filmmakers to cut down the movie's footage by a large amount so it destroys the story, letting trailer making studio to cut the movie, forcing writers to pen the whole movie in two weeks, it's crazy. BvS, SS, JL... hope they'll learn from all of this.

This picture, man... Good old DCEU Snyderverse days.


----------



## ranaprathap

Watched the movie today. I enjoyed it. I think they got a lot of things right this time. It is not perfect and it is certainly no "Wonder Woman". But there were many fun moments. And that was precisely what was missing from MOS and BVS in my opinion - _fun _as someone already pointed out.

I know the dark and twisty Snyder way of doing things can be appealing to people, but it is not a popular opinion considering the way those movies were received. 

Regarding the score the best I can describe it is "forgettable". But it is not fair that we demand all movies should have a good memorable score. It's film music. It's job is to support the film and I think in JL the score did OK in that regard. 

I understand its possible to score a film, where the music can stand on its own I still listen to a lot of cues from interstellar or wonder woman (I adore Trafalgar Celebration). But that doesn't mean every score has to be like that. 

The anguish here has been mostly due to how JL score spoiled a reasonably coherent DC cinematic universe thematic consistency. I understand the place where it comes from, but I do not think the score of JL was thematic. It could have been, but its not. So the thematic consistency is not spoiled, according to me, its just not there.


----------



## NoamL

Consona said:


> That's why I love it. No MCU type drama demolished by a stupid joke scenario. Plus I rewatched MoS and BvS and those films are just magnificent.
> 
> So, I've seen JL twice already and... Where the **** is the Snyder's cut?! Whedon's version is so disjointed, reshoots and rewrites have really bad and cringy dialogues, some really disgusting jokes and some new scenes were just needless. The movie was too short to tell any kind of story (WB's fault). The only things that saved the film for me were the actors in the roles of those characters, loved them, and some great action scenes, those underwater scenes, etc., enjoyed those tremendously. Otherwise this Whedon's version was a mess. I definitely want an hour longer Snyder's cut with a darker Cyborg arc, better dialogues, no stupid dishonorable jokes, with much more fleshed out story and characters and Junkie XL's music.
> 
> MoS and BvS were interesting, bold and epic masterpieces, JL theatrical cut was a harmless four-quadrant kids movie. WB being so intrusive is the worst thing that happened to DCEU. Forcing filmmakers to cut down the movie's footage by a large amount so it destroys the story, letting trailer making studio to cut the movie, forcing writers to pen the whole movie in two weeks, it's crazy. BvS, SS, JL... hope they'll learn from all of this.
> 
> This picture, man... Good old DCEU Snyderverse days.




Well @Consona , I am non-sarcastically glad that you got to enjoy several movies in the style you wanted.

Snyder is admirable for making movies the way _he_ wants. Few directors' work is so recognizable and even when people diss him with lines like "Snyder's videogame-cutscene aesthetic" they're recognizing he has something distinct. My only problem with his style is that I don't like it.


----------



## SterlingArcher

Consona said:


> That's why I love it. No MCU type drama demolished by a stupid joke scenario. Plus I rewatched MoS and BvS and those films are just magnificent.
> 
> So, I've seen JL twice already and... Where the **** is the Snyder's cut?! Whedon's version is so disjointed, reshoots and rewrites have really bad and cringy dialogues, some really disgusting jokes and some new scenes were just needless. The movie was too short to tell any kind of story (WB's fault). The only things that saved the film for me were the actors in the roles of those characters, loved them, and some great action scenes, those underwater scenes, etc., enjoyed those tremendously. Otherwise this Whedon's version was a mess. I definitely want an hour longer Snyder's cut with a darker Cyborg arc, better dialogues, no stupid dishonorable jokes, with much more fleshed out story and characters and Junkie XL's music.
> 
> MoS and BvS were interesting, bold and epic masterpieces, JL theatrical cut was a harmless four-quadrant kids movie. WB being so intrusive is the worst thing that happened to DCEU. Forcing filmmakers to cut down the movie's footage by a large amount so it destroys the story, letting trailer making studio to cut the movie, forcing writers to pen the whole movie in two weeks, it's crazy. BvS, SS, JL... hope they'll learn from all of this.
> 
> This picture, man... Good old DCEU Snyderverse days.



Hans in that picture looks like someone who has stuck a 'Kick Me' sign on their backs and is waiting for them to notice.


----------



## SterlingArcher

Mr. Ha said:


> Well Elfman has publicly said some pretty bad stuff about other composers. Recently he said that reboots should never create a new theme and mentioned spider man and batman.



Just the themes that he created I'll bet.


----------



## SterlingArcher

NoamL said:


> Well @Consona , I am non-sarcastically glad that you got to enjoy several movies in the style you wanted.
> 
> Snyder is admirable for making movies the way _he_ wants. Few directors' work is so recognizable and even when people diss him with lines like "Snyder's videogame-cutscene aesthetic" they're recognizing he has something distinct. My only problem with his style is that I don't like it.



Pretty much the same with Michael Bay.


----------



## Consona

Superman's resurrection scene with Hans' music... Omg, it's so beautiful and fitting.


----------



## Grizzlymv

Consona said:


> Superman's resurrection scene with Hans' music... Omg, it's so beautiful and fitting.



So good indeed!!


----------



## Consona

After watching all those "deleted" Snyder's scenes, I'm so glad Hans and Junkie were not part of what WB did to this film. I got teary-eyed just from watching that short clip where Clark enters the Kryptonian ship to get his suit. The visuals, the atmosphere, the pacing, that look on Cavill's face (and I don't mean there's not that insane moustache removal CGI), the symbolism where he turns away from the black suit and his face leaves the shadows and enters the light, the music, it was fantastic. My heart was racing, this was exactly what I wanted and WB ordered to cut, rewrote and reshot all this great stuff and replace it was cringy and jokey Superman.

The insane this is, in JL, Snyder made exactly the Superman people always wanted, regal, optimistic, majestic, happy, charming, and what WD did? Swapped it for that cheap jokes bloke version. All the Snyder's fantastic visuals and CGI swapped for the Whedon's horrible smear (seriously go find the comparison of the shots, it's crazy), they cut all those interesting and emotional scenes out just to insert so many cringy dialogues and scenes and needless subplots, made characters bland, even Ciarán Hinds said how unhappy he was with what they did to his villain, they took out all the substance and made it a pseudo-MCU movie. Not to forget Elfman's music did not resemble HZ and JXL's DCEU stuff at all. And day after day after day more details about the Snyder version come out so I'm getting more and more and more mad and frustrated. This was one of the most mishandled big budget movies ever and since I loved MoS and BvS UE so much, I think they basically destroyed what could have been the best CBM trilogy. I can't believe they had the audacity to put "directed by Zack Snyder" in the titles. I hope, some day, we'll get the Snyder cut. JL was my most anticipated movie...


----------



## Hans-Peter

EpicDude said:


> A lot of people worship Danny Elfman but they have to admit he was a bad choice for Justice League. I'm a bit upset because he didn't follow HZ/JXL established theme but what makes me really angry is that the score isn't even good, it doesn't sound epic or powerful.


How weird then that everything you stated does not apply to me nor to anyone else I know in my surroundings (music academics and pro composers/media-/game producers). Hmm ... while it's ok that you may think so, it's perhaps time to look beyond the edge of that plate - before stating your assumptions? People appear to be split about the movie, which indicates that some may have enjoyed it as is.


----------



## Grizzlymv

Well, I did not enjoy it at all. I liked the previous two, but this one was just a waste of time and money to me. The movie wasn't fun. There's not even a single memorable scene. The music is very generic too. I mean, No problemes with Elfman taking over Junkie XL. I would have hoped for him to re-work in his style, the thematic material from the previous 2 movies to keep consistancy, but he was against it. Then fine, but I would have thought that, after making so strong arguments about the importance on relying on the classic themes, that the score would be built around them, but no. They just barely make one or two quick appearance and that's it. So you end up with music that have NOTHING related to this universe, and almost nothing related to the classic themes...what for? I don't get it. I don't remmeber a single bit of music from this movie, nor a key scene where there was some kind of emotional connection. There's even some fan made re-cut of key scenes from the movie rescored with material from the first 2 movies, and it elevate the action on screen so much because you're connected to those already. That what I was hoping for from Elfman's score. It felt like they wanted to get rid, at all cost, of anything related to Snyder's vision. Up to that point, they should have just trashed the whole movie altogether and start fresh with a reboot just as Marvel keep doing with Spiderman...


----------



## NoamL

If you went back 8 months and told me that IT, Thor 3, and Jumanji would all outgross Justice League, I would have thought you were crazy.


----------



## Consona

Grizzlymv said:


> It felt like they wanted to get rid, at all cost, of anything related to Snyder's vision.


Yes. And yet, they blatantly lied that Whedon's just finishing Snyder's vision (while he rewrote and reshot big part of the movie and the whole score was scrapped, JX L fired and Elfman was hired) and now the whole advertisement for the digital release was Snyder's scenes they deleted from the movie. What a mess.


----------



## Darren Durann

NoamL said:


> If you went back 8 months and told me that IT, Thor 3, and Jumanji would all outgross Justice League, I would have thought you were crazy.



I passed on Justice League (was a huge fan of Man of Steel but super disappointed in Batman vs. Superman). But I keep forgetting to watch Thor 3 (I really liked the first two, especially the second which was super fun imo). Thanks for reminding me.

I'm one of those weirdos who thought Civil War was the best superhero flick since Man of Steel...to this day.


----------



## dcoscina

EpicDude said:


> The woodwinds make it sound like a fairy tale movie. Danny Elfman was a big mistake, period.


Yeah what were they thinking using woodwinds? There’s no place for them in modern film scoring especially when epic music is so awesome with the rocking drums and screaming choirs. That’s what Elfman shoulda done...


----------



## dcoscina

Consona said:


> Superman's resurrection scene with Hans' music... Omg, it's so beautiful and fitting.



Yeah that actually works. I didn’t see the film so I don’t know what they actually used as underscore but the HZ stuff does work dramatically and provides some musical continuity.


----------



## NoamL

Darren Durann said:


> I passed on Justice League (was a huge fan of Man of Steel but super disappointed in Batman vs. Superman). But I keep forgetting to watch Thor 3 (I really liked the first two, especially the second which was super fun imo). Thanks for reminding me.
> 
> I'm one of those weirdos who thought Civil War was the best superhero flick since Man of Steel...to this day.




Thor 3 is great fun. And I never saw Thor 2!


----------



## NoamL

EpicDude said:


> The woodwinds make it sound like a fairy tale movie. Danny Elfman was a big mistake, period.



Not sure I would go that far but I do reckon these big dour smashemup movies need some kind of beyond-orchestral component. The score did sound a bit too "an orchestra, in a room."


----------



## Grizzlymv

and now that they got rid of the strong musical identities from MOS and BvS, I wonder what they are gonna do for MOS2 if that ever happen...they can't really bring back William's theme seriously....they could start fresh, but something won't feel right...and bringing back those strong identities might feel wierd too after Justice League since they denied it so strongly.... will be interesting to see what they do about this.


----------



## Darren Durann

Grizzlymv said:


> and now that they got rid of the strong musical identities from MOS and BvS, I wonder what they are gonna do for MOS2 if that ever happen...they can't really bring back William's theme seriously....they could start fresh, but something won't feel right...and bringing back those strong identities might feel wierd too after Justice League since they denied it so strongly.... will be interesting to see what they do about this.



I love MoS, and hope they either rehire Zimmer (I know, he said he wouldn't) or use his original score (at least in parts). The score the MoS was at least half of the reason I love that movie as much as the amazing Reeve film.


----------



## dcoscina

EpicDude said:


> There is place for woodwinds in epic scores but Justice League is an example of how not to do it.


Yeah, I will need to heard Elfman's score again. I know his use of low winds in the Burton Batman was terrific and foreboding. I was kind of surprised they hired him for this current franchise because his sound is so different from the tone and style that's been established. 

While I will admit that Williams' Superman is my all time favourite score (by him or anyone), I know it wouldn't have worked with the new incarnation of Supes just like Elfman's Batman theme (also terrific) would not have suited the Dark Knight franchise. 

I think the real problem with DC movies is that they are trying too hard to capture the quality of Marvel films, which let's admit, have been fairly terrific- Captain America trilogy has just gotten better and better (Civil War tackled similar themes to BvS but infinitely better), Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers, Thor, Spiderman; all of them have been entertaining AND well written/directed. The DC films by contrast have been messy. Contrived, forced, noisy, and as much as WW was a step in the right direction, it borrowed from Cap America 1 (narratively) and waaaaaay too much CGI when practical effects or wire work would have been better for the fight scenes..

If I were HZ, I'd want to leave that stuff and tackle more rewarding films. This could be why he's working on Dark Phoenix. Not that I know what his motivation was for leaving the DC world of comic movies, but we all know that writing music for inspired great movies is a lot easier than trying to compose masterpieces to sub par cinematic offerings (Goldsmith got stuck with a lot of crappy films in his time but wrote some amazing scores nonetheless).


----------



## Consona

dcoscina said:


> I think the real problem with DC movies is that they are trying too hard to capture the quality of Marvel films, which let's admit, have been fairly terrific- Captain America trilogy has just gotten better and better (Civil War tackled similar themes to BvS but infinitely better), Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers, Thor, Spiderman; all of them have been entertaining AND well written/directed. The DC films by contrast have been messy. Contrived, forced, noisy, and as much as WW was a step in the right direction, it borrowed from Cap America 1 (narratively) and waaaaaay too much CGI when practical effects or wire work would have been better for the fight scenes..



To me, it's completely the opposite. I thought BvS was way way better then Civil War, and I thought Wonder Woman was so inferior to MoS and BvS. I know I'm in minority but I don't consider MCU films to be something special, but I think Mos and BvS UE are the two best CBMs since Nolan's The Dark Knight.

As for the DCEU future, the should definitely bring the Zimmer's themes back. And definitely not use the old Williams and Elfman themes or create something new again. Hans' stuff was perfect. I'm just transcribing all the MoS themes and wow, I love them, I haven't even realized how many themes are there and all are so catchy. MoS 2 without Zimmer would be pretty meh.


----------



## dcoscina

EpicDude said:


> DC movies have a lot of problems too, specially Justice League (it's completely trash).
> Batman V Superman has the best 3 scenes I've seen in all the superhero movies (Metropolis battle scene, Batman warehouse fight scene and Must there be a superman? scene).



I think our difference in perspective probably relates to our ages. I'm 50 and came up in a very different era of filmmaking where the editing was not as frenetic and the overall movie experience wasn't an assault on one's senses. Good action movies were things like First Blood (the original) or Enter the Dragon (great Schifrin score) which had scenes of high intensity but weren't edited with cuts under 24 frames per second. Even Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back were paced and cut together in a manner that could be understood. I won't say Marvel doesn't suffer from some of this. Civil War and Winter Soldier are great but not from an action standpoint but a narrative one. The fight sequences are too quickly edited and even though the filmmakers purport to have their actors put through rigorous training, they still use quick editing and close shots with shaky cameras to compensate for the fact that they aren't skilled fighters 

Anyhow that's OT a little bit. 

I thoroughly enjoyed the Nolan DK series and Hans' music as well. They elevated the comic book genre. Superman had moments of brilliance (like the bar scene which I thought was outstanding- more of that and less of the second half of the movie with non-stop fighting would have been better). 

I will point out one of the best comic book movies (and scores) was Shyamalan's Unbreakable (scored by JN Howard). For me, that's the best superhero movie ever made with possibly Brad Bird's The Incredibles coming in a close second. But that's me


----------



## dcoscina

Consona said:


> To me, it's completely the opposite. I thought BvS was way way better then Civil War, and I thought Wonder Woman was so inferior to MoS and BvS. I know I'm in minority but I don't consider MCU films to be something special, but I think Mos and BvS UE are the two best CBMs since Nolan's The Dark Knight.
> 
> As for the DCEU future, the should definitely bring the Zimmer's themes back. And definitely not use the old Williams and Elfman themes or create something new again. Hans' stuff was perfect. I'm just transcribing all the MoS themes and wow, I love them, I haven't even realized how many themes are there and all are so catchy. MoS 2 without Zimmer would be pretty meh.



To this point I whole heartedly agree. I would have much preferred a HZ Wonder Woman score though I won't lie and admit that a Shirley Walker WW score would have been awesome. God rest her soul.


----------



## Consona

*WE DID IT!!!!!!*


----------



## Consona

@Real JXL Heat up your compressors!


----------



## KEM

Very excited


----------



## Macrawn

Wow that's pretty awesome. I want to see a longer version more in tune to what it was supposed to be. 

And the soundtrack I'm giving a thumbs down. It doesn't offer anything in terms of creativity that I can hear. It's generic, gets the job done, and that's about it.


----------



## Consona

Macrawn said:


> Wow that's pretty awesome. I want to see a longer version more in tune to what it was supposed to be.
> 
> And the soundtrack I'm giving a thumbs down. It doesn't offer anything in terms of creativity that I can hear. It's generic, gets the job done, and that's about it.


Snyder's JL is not a longer version of the 2017 film, it's a completely different film.

And it won't contain Elfman's score. It's gonna have the original JXL's soundtrack.


----------



## MarcHedenberg

Consona said:


> Snyder's JL is not a longer version of the 2017 film, it's a completely different film.
> 
> And it won't contain Elfman's score. It's gonna have the original JXL's soundtrack.



Is that confirmed? Junkie my man, where are you?! Answer this question for us please!


----------



## Macrawn

Consona said:


> Snyder's JL is not a longer version of the 2017 film, it's a completely different film.
> 
> And it won't contain Elfman's score. It's gonna have the original JXL's soundtrack.


That's a double plus.


----------



## Consona

MarcHedenberg said:


> Is that confirmed? Junkie my man, where are you?! Answer this question for us please!


From what we know, JXL's score to Snyder's JL was finished even before all the reshoots and whatnot. And with AT&T giving Snyder over $30m to complete and even expand his film, there's no way we will hear Elfman's music in it.


----------



## MarcHedenberg

Consona said:


> From what we know, JXL's score to Snyder's JL was finished even before all the reshoots and whatnot. And with AT&T giving Snyder over $30m to complete and even expand his film, there's no way we will hear Elfman's music in it.



That’s good because I reeeeally didn’t like the score at all.


----------



## Consona

Okay, this is going to be the most badass epicly awesome superhero film ever!!!


----------



## Consona

Full trailer in 3 days!!! Yaaaaaaay!!!


----------



## Consona




----------



## Consona

Ok, that Batman shot is the most badass stuff ever filmed!


----------



## Consona

4 hours of this insane epicness!


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

So it's out now... looking forward to this!


----------



## jononotbono

Consona said:


> 4 hours of this insane epicness!



4 hrs of what? The film is going to be 4hrs?


----------



## Consona

Interesting that Warner Bros Pictures did not post the trailer on their main youtube channel with 9.5 million subscribers (even though they are credited in the trailer itself), it was only on HBO Max channel with merely 500k subs, yet it still broke viewing records.  So glad people are interested in Snyder's DC films, I love them.
Shame Warner Bros also botched the distribution up. Hope someone from HBO/WarnerMedia helps with that. But they have only a month until the premiere.




jononotbono said:


> 4 hrs of what? The film is going to be 4hrs?


 Yes, a 4 hour long Justice League film from Zack Snyder.  Scored solely but @Real JXL


----------



## Consona

🔥 Junkie XL's on fire 🔥


Oh s**t, this was a leak (I was wondering why I didn't see it on WaterTower page), sorry for posting it, JXL. But it's out anyway... :/

Final edit: the official track


----------



## Grizzlymv

when that bass riff kicks in. and the theme. wow. can't wait to hear the rest and have it against the picture.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

More important to me, nothing hurts more than seeing an artists' work locked away and the key chucked by some executives. 

Glad Junkie's work will get to see the light of day.


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> More important to me, nothing hurts more than seeing an artists' work locked away and the key chucked by some executives.
> 
> Glad Junkie's work will get to see the light of day.


Can you explain all this “Snyder cut” business? I literally never followed any of it and at the time just watched B vs S. I see some people constantly going on about a Snyder Cut? Also, why would JXL’s music be locked away if he is about to have this film released which is his music? And surely new music right?


----------



## Grizzlymv

jononotbono said:


> Can you explain all this “Snyder cut” business? I literally never followed any of it and at the time just watched B vs S. I see some people constantly going on about a Snyder Cut? Also, why would JXL’s music be locked away if he is about to have this film released which is his music? And surely new music right?


You must be joking, but if not, the short story would be that Snyder stepped down from Justice League following the death of his daughter. Josh Weddon was brought in to finalize the cut. But once he stepped in, he fired the composer (Junkie XL) and replaced him by Danny Elfman, then went to reshoot a big chunk of the movie and delivered the mess we all know now, including the mustache gate. So a bunch of people started to ask for the Snyder cut, and Snyder himself kept teasing his own, different, version for months, which amplified the buzz for the Snyder cut, and with WB needing a big stunt to attract people in HBO Max, a new streaming service they launched a year ago, they decided to give it a shot and allow Snyder to finalize the movie, according to his original vision. 

I for one, am very curious to see that take as the one we got 4 years ago left me with a hugh meh, and I really wasn't a fan of Elfman approach of dropping all the MOS / BvS themes for the 70' superman and his own batman theme...didn't fit the movie for me. But more over, I'm glad a studio kind of listened to customers, and also gave creativity freedom to its director, which seems to be quite an achievement these days.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

The irony here is that I didn't watch justice league, so I'm going to go into the snyder cut completely fresh.


----------



## jononotbono

Grizzlymv said:


> You must be joking, but if not, the short story would be that Snyder stepped down from Justice League following the death of his daughter. Josh Weddon was brought in to finalize the cut. But once he stepped in, he fired the composer (Junkie XL) and replaced him by Danny Elfman, then went to reshoot a big chunk of the movie and delivered the mess we all know now, including the mustache gate. So a bunch of people started to ask for the Snyder cut, and Snyder himself kept teasing his own, different, version for months, which amplified the buzz for the Snyder cut, and with WB needing a big stunt to attract people in HBO Max, a new streaming service they launched a year ago, they decided to give it a shot and allow Snyder to finalize the movie, according to his original vision.
> 
> I for one, am very curious to see that take as the one we got 4 years ago left me with a hugh meh, and I really wasn't a fan of Elfman approach of dropping all the MOS / BvS themes for the 70' superman and his own batman theme...didn't fit the movie for me. But more over, I'm glad a studio kind of listened to customers, and also gave creativity freedom to its director, which seems to be quite an achievement these days.


Oh right yeah. I remember all this now. I vaguely remember the score and I thought his use of the Burton Batman theme just felt odd. It’s from a different universe. Yeah ok, I understand now. Well I look forward to seeing it.


----------



## Consona

ProfoundSilence said:


> The irony here is that I didn't watch justice league, so I'm going to go into the snyder cut completely fresh.


I wish I could say the same!



Grizzlymv said:


> and with WB needing a big stunt to attract people in HBO Max, a new streaming service they launched a year ago, they decided to give it a shot and allow Snyder to finalize the movie, according to his original vision.


Actually, Warner Bros were forced to call Snyder to finish the film by WarnerMedia and AT&T who own WB.

WB wanted to bury SnyderCut for good because some high level producers from WB were the ones who ousted Snyder out (the unfortunate death of his daugther was the final straw) and who brought Joss Whedon and Geoff Johns there to "finish Snyder's vision", what we now know was a blatant lie. They basically wanted to destroy all the major connections to Snyder's previous work and wanted to disneyfy the whole thing, make it way more campy and "funny", and way less gritty and dramatic.

That thankfully severely backfired, because the film was just a stupid meh forgettable cartoony comicbook flick, with Whedon's cringy "humor", utterly stupid dialogue ("thristy" and "inchy", jeeeeeeeeez, that was such an utter crap), and his TV-level crappy visuals and production, because they reshot like 80% of the film.

Plus there were reports Whedon and Johns were abusive towards the cast and some of those WB producers were trying to sweep all of that under the rug. (They even made some fake announcements!!! to cover the news up, when some media started to report on that. About Jason Momoa doing an animated flick and such things, that were totally fabricated.) Just a shitty situation overall.

And to this day it seems WB are not happy about the whole situation of SnyderCut being back. There's a WB logo on the SnyderCut trailer, yet they did not upload it on their 9.5 million subs youtube channel to promote it, while they upload all the other DC films trailers there, and they really botched up the international distribution, so the film will make way less money than it could...
Plus Warner Bros released another Godzilla vs Kong trailer the same evening the SnyderCut trailer dropped, which is rather weird...

These WB producers are the worst. They didn't want to greenlight Joker, which has become the most profitable comicbook film of all times and which was way more interesting than all the run-of-the-mill comicbook flicks we are getting these days. They brought Whedon to disneyfy the DC universe... like... WTF? Get the F**K out of your offices right now!!! I really hope they get replaced.

It's funny that SnyderCut trailer, uploaded on a 500k subs HBO Max youtube channel, made the same numbers in 24 hours as all the huge movie trailers on that 9.5 million subs WB channel.
There's definitely an audience for that film, contrary to what the WB producers are trying to sell to the press, like it's a "cul-de-sac" with no future, while it's the most popular WB/DC property since... ever. What a situation...

Even that Reeves/Pattinson Batman film is an attempt to undermine Snyder's DC. The Batman was supposed to be Ben Affleck's film (Snyder's Batman). Affleck wrote the script and Jay Oliva (The Dark Knight Returns director) said it was the best Batman story he's ever read. But WB sent Geoff Johns to Affleck, to "help him with the script"... soon after that, Ben Affleck left the project. And thus WB were free to cast a new Batman, that has nothing to do with Snyder.

But... here we are. Snyder got more than $70m to finish his film, and he brought Affleck back to make some additional photography.

So, who knows what the future holds, but we for sure now have that 4 hour epic awesomeness to watch next month!


----------



## X-Bassist

Consona said:


> I wish I could say the same!
> 
> 
> Actually, Warner Bros were forced to call Snyder to finish the film by WarnerMedia and AT&T who own WB.
> 
> WB wanted to bury SnyderCut for good because some high level producers from WB were the ones who ousted Snyder out (the unfortunate death of his daugther was the final straw) and who brought Joss Whedon and Geoff Johns there to "finish Snyder's vision", what we now know was a blatant lie. They basically wanted to destroy all the major connections to Snyder's previous work and wanted to disneyfy the whole thing, make it way more campy and "funny", and way less gritty and dramatic.
> 
> That thankfully severely backfired, because the film was just a stupid meh forgettable cartoony comicbook flick, with Whedon's cringy "humor", utterly stupid dialogue ("thristy" and "inchy", jeeeeeeeeez, that was such an utter crap), and his TV-level crappy visuals and production, because they reshot like 80% of the film.
> 
> Plus there were reports Whedon and Johns were abusive towards the cast and some of those WB producers were trying to sweep all of that under the rug. (They even made some fake announcements!!! to cover the news up, when some media started to report on that. About Jason Momoa doing an animated flick and such things, that were totally fabricated.) Just a shitty situation overall.
> 
> And to this day it seems WB are not happy about the whole situation of SnyderCut being back. There's a WB logo on the SnyderCut trailer, yet they did not upload it on their 9.5 million subs youtube channel to promote it, while they upload all the other DC films trailers there, and they really botched up the international distribution, so the film will make way less money than it could...
> Plus Warner Bros released another Godzilla vs Kong trailer the same evening the SnyderCut trailer dropped, which is rather weird...
> 
> These WB producers are the worst. They didn't want to greenlight Joker, which has become the most profitable comicbook film of all times and which was way more interesting than all the run-of-the-mill comicbook flicks we are getting these days. They brought Whedon to disneyfy the DC universe... like... WTF? Get the F**K out of your offices right now!!! I really hope they get replaced.
> 
> It's funny that SnyderCut trailer, uploaded on a 500k subs HBO Max youtube channel, made the same numbers in 24 hours as all the huge movie trailers on that 9.5 million subs WB channel.
> There's definitely an audience for that film, contrary to what the WB producers are trying to sell to the press, like it's a "cul-de-sac" with no future, while it's the most popular WB/DC property since... ever. What a situation...
> 
> Even that Reeves/Pattinson Batman film is an attempt to undermine Snyder's DC. The Batman was supposed to be Ben Affleck's film (Snyder's Batman). Affleck wrote the script and Jay Oliva (The Dark Knight Returns director) said it was the best Batman story he's ever read. But WB sent Geoff Johns to Affleck, to "help him with the script"... soon after that, Ben Affleck left the project. And thus WB were free to cast a new Batman, that has nothing to do with Snyder.
> 
> But... here we are. Snyder got more than $70m to finish his film, and he brought Affleck back to make some additional photography.
> 
> So, who knows what the future holds, but we for sure now have that 4 hour epic awesomeness to watch next month!


I sincerely hope it’s worth 4 hours. Gandhi was the last film I saw near that length that was worth it, and that was only 3 hours. 😄 Filling the time with extra slow motion shots is not going to do it. He’s going to need some serious plot twists and turns, and I’ve never seen Snyder pull that off. But the first cut could have used more setup, more of the group getting together, and what they have to go through to stay together. So hopefully he’s got a lot more story for us, and a lot less “jokes” that fall flat.

Perhaps you could give us a review before I see it. Save me 4 hours if it is, again, another long winded “meh”. 😄


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen

What's the length of the upcoming soundtrack?


----------



## Consona

X-Bassist said:


> I sincerely hope it’s worth 4 hours. Gandhi was the last film I saw near that length that was worth it, and that was only 3 hours. 😄 Filling the time with extra slow motion shots is not going to do it. He’s going to need some serious plot twists and turns, and I’ve never seen Snyder pull that off. But the first cut could have used more setup, more of the group getting together, and what they have to go through to stay together. So hopefully he’s got a lot more story for us, and a lot less “jokes” that fall flat.
> 
> Perhaps you could give us a review before I see it. Save me 4 hours if it is, again, another long winded “meh”. 😄


I loved Snyder's Man of Steel and Batman v Superman Ultimate Edition, so you'll need to take that into account when reading my review.  

And the long version of Watchmen is rad as well, so I can't wait for another long Snyder film. If it's as great as usual, it will be like an epic badass sci-fi Lord of the Rings! 



Jonas.Ingebretsen said:


> What's the length of the upcoming soundtrack?


Dunno. Maybe there will be more editions of the soundtrack considering how long the film is.


----------



## storyteller

Consona said:


> I loved Snyder's Man of Steel and Batman v Superman Ultimate Edition, so you'll need to take that into account when reading my review.
> 
> And the long version of Watchmen is rad as well, so I can't wait for another long Snyder film. If it's as great as usual, it will be like an epic badass sci-fi Lord of the Rings!
> 
> 
> Dunno. Maybe there will be more editions of the soundtrack considering how long the film is.


The ultimate edition was waaaayyyy better than the theatrical cut. I’m a fan of Snyder for sure. MoS is one of my all time favorite movies. And that Junkie XL song is incredible btw! Usually not a fan of that style song, but I’ve been listening to it on repeat.

If you have an open mind, the depth of Snyder’s stories are incredible. It is the Powers that be that try to censor his stories... that is what it is really about. He presents really deep stories in a way for the masses to injest... but the execs don’t want that, so they handicap His theatrical releases. Sucker Punch is a good example. The directors cut tells an entirely different story than the theatrical cut. And, if you truly understand the depth and spiritual meaning he has throughout the film, it really is a “sucker punch” to those that think it is a chauvinistic video game type of a movie. That particular story is a piece of art that 99% of the world won’t get. Kinda like how Dante published his works as a “Divine Comedy” to escape persecution of heresy.


----------



## Sheridan

Oh my god, Magnum!

https://screenrant.com/justice-leag...Vjdjg0UGU5WU1pUjJXZ0pGRHZIbjVHb084OW9ycUNqMG8.


----------



## Consona

storyteller said:


> The ultimate edition was waaaayyyy better than the theatrical cut. I’m a fan of Snyder for sure. MoS is one of my all time favorite movies. And that Junkie XL song is incredible btw! Usually not a fan of that style song, but I’ve been listening to it on repeat.
> 
> If you have an open mind, the depth of Snyder’s stories are incredible. It is the Powers that be that try to censor his stories... that is what it is really about. He presents really deep stories in a way for the masses to injest... but the execs don’t want that, so they handicap His theatrical releases. Sucker Punch is a good example. The directors cut tells an entirely different story than the theatrical cut. And, if you truly understand the depth and spiritual meaning he has throughout the film, it really is a “sucker punch” to those that think it is a chauvinistic video game type of a movie. That particular story is a piece of art that 99% of the world won’t get. Kinda like how Dante published his works as a “Divine Comedy” to escape persecution of heresy.


Exactly!
Reading your post I was about to mention Sucker Punch, but you did it yourself.  And btw, Snyder said we are getting his original version of Sucker Punch this year as well! 

Internet is so meme based. Some youtubers who are incapable of appreciating his films started this "Snyder's films are style over substance" and I'm always like "WTF??? turn your brain on and pay some attention!!!".   People over-praise all those bland Disney flicks so heavily and yet say Snyder's films have little substance and I'm like, guys, Batman v Superman alone had more substance than all those 23+ MCU films combined. 

Also funny you mentioned Dante. As someone who studied Dante (and Shakespeare) at an university, BvS really reminded me of their complex and interesting works.

Btw, Snyder is developing a king Arthur film now. 1981 Excalibur is one of his fave films ever.

Thinking about his films, I haven't seen the owls animated film yet, should do something about it.


----------



## Consona

Consona said:


> Shame Warner Bros also botched the distribution up. Hope someone from HBO/WarnerMedia helps with that. But they have only a month until the premiere.


Today, WarnerMedia and Zack Snyder announced they were able to make ZSJL available worldwide day one except for 3 countries!!!


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## Consona

Lol, and those 3 countries get a theatrical release, lucky bastards.


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## Ahmad Ali

Jonas.Ingebretsen said:


> What's the length of the upcoming soundtrack?


Zack Snyder said there will be about 4 hour of music released (including a ten minute intermission piece). We'll know for sure next month. 

I'm beyond excited to finally be able to see this Snyder's vision. 

I remember being so excited to see JL in 2017 and then the news about Snyder stepping down then Holkenborg getting replaced by Elfman was a huge red flag. I literally went to see it twice in IMAX because I was so invested in it but it was clear that it was a botched movie by a studio who is so reactive. I still don't understand how they looked at that cut and went: Yup! This is worth releasing. The opening scene alone was a reason to can it or just set it on fire.


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## Consona

2 and a half hours interview with Junkie XL.


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## Consona

Wow, the level of care Zack puts into his films is breathtaking...


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## storyteller

Consona said:


> Wow, the level of care Zack puts into his films is breathtaking...


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## Consona

storyteller said:


>



Just saw this. Absolutely incredible. The way Superman lifts Batman, out of darkness... the nod they give to each other...


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## storyteller

Consona said:


> Just saw this. Absolutely incredible. The way Superman lifts Batman, out of darkness... the nod they give to each other...


And Superman is wearing his black suit!! I missed that the first couple of times i watched it. 

This movie could flop, but sonically, we are in for a 4hr Junkie XL treat. And, visually it looks soooooo much better than Whedon’s version. I was baffled at the choice of lenses in the first movie... faces looked warped and overall it was as if the cinematographer forgot how to choose an aesthically pleasing lens. But when you see the same scenes side by side without the zoom and crop, the lens choices were perfect. this is one of my gripes with high res digital cinematography... the whole ”oh we can crop and zoom in post” does NOT work like they think since a lens is chosen based on the framing of a shot and the distance the subject is from the camera.


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## NoamL

storyteller said:


> This movie could flop


Reportedly it cost $70m to "undo" the Josstice League version. Which feels like a lot by the standards of this unprecedentedly weird redo-a-movie concept, but not a lot by the standards of comic book movie budgets from square one. So doesn't the film have a pretty reasonable chance to make back its "redo" budget?.... depends on how expensive the marketing is.... there sure seems like a lot of marketing but part of it is organic WOM.

Anyway, larger point: the thing is 4 hours long and has everything you would expect from "Zack Snyder passion project" right down to The Joker doing a Christ allegory. I don't think there's really a question that the Snyder version wouldn't have flopped every bit as hard as the WB/Whedon version, if released theatrically at the time. This grimdark version of superheroes is so expired. DC's biggest successes so far were WW and Aquaman.


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## marclawsonmusic

I don't understand why people aren't sick of superhero movies already. 

Judas f'kin Priest, it's been years and years of this stuff. Same music (ok, debatable... but always BIG), same stories, same drama, same FX, same 'I'm a common man, but still a superhero', same bullshit.

Yeah yeah, I know there is Marvel vs DC, but really it's the same stories with different heroes.

This stuff still sells? Good grief, humanity must be desperate.


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## Ahmad Ali




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## jononotbono

storyteller said:


> The ultimate edition was waaaayyyy better than the theatrical cut


How do I watch it? Is it available to stream?


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## Consona

NoamL said:


> Reportedly it cost $70m to "undo" the Josstice League version.


Not undo. Snyder's film was finished first. Then WB spent money to redo that. Those $70m HBO gave to Snyder was to finish all VFX and stuff in the original film. Not to "undo" anything from Josstice League. There won't be a frame from that 2017 film in ZSJL.



NoamL said:


> This grimdark version of superheroes is so expired.


Good movies never expire.



NoamL said:


> DC's biggest successes so far were WW and Aquaman.


And those films ranged from mediocre (WW) to borderline crap (Aquaman). I'm so baffled people love the blandest comicbook films like Aquaman, Black Panther or Thor Ragnarok.

I wish we could get more stuff from Nolan, Snyder or Mangold. I don't need anything from the whole MCU or Warner Bros' DCEU 2.0.



marclawsonmusic said:


> I don't understand why people aren't sick of superhero movies already.
> 
> Judas f'kin Priest, it's been years and years of this stuff. Same music (ok, debatable... but always BIG), same stories, same drama, same FX, same 'I'm a common man, but still a superhero', same bullshit.
> 
> Yeah yeah, I know there is Marvel vs DC, but really it's the same stories with different heroes.
> 
> This stuff still sells? Good grief, humanity must be desperate.


The last thing Snyder's film is going to be is _just another run-of-the-mill comicbook flick_.


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## Ahmad Ali

Consona said:


> Not undo. Snyder's film was finished first. Then WB spent money to redo that. Those $70m HBO gave to Snyder was to finish all VFX and stuff in the original film. Not to "undo" anything from Josstice League. There won't be a frame from that 2017 film in ZSJL.


Yeah... the whole "undo" thing is tricky. From what I understand, Zack had his 214 minute cut and a studio mandated 2-hour cut (this is the version Holkenborg originally scored in 2017). Nothing was finished as that cut probably didn't please WB. Then Snyder stepped away. 

They spent money on the original shoot, then spent more money on unnecessary reshoots.


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## storyteller

jononotbono said:


> How do I watch it? Is it available to stream?


The ultimate edition was on the 4k disc. The blu-ray in the same package was just the theatrical cut (at least in the USA). The digital redeem codes unlocked both versions on VUDU iirc. If you can’t find an ultimate edition 4k disc in your area, maybe try iTunes or vudu for streaming. I genuinely don’t know what is available if you didn’t buy the disc.


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## NoamL

marclawsonmusic said:


> I don't understand why people aren't sick of superhero movies already.
> 
> Judas f'kin Priest, it's been years and years of this stuff. Same music (ok, debatable... but always BIG), same stories, same drama, same FX, same 'I'm a common man, but still a superhero', same bullshit.
> 
> Yeah yeah, I know there is Marvel vs DC, but really it's the same stories with different heroes.
> 
> This stuff still sells? Good grief, humanity must be desperate.


Well, here's a big theory-dump...  IMO "superheroes" are just the wrapper for spectacle movies. Wondering when people are gonna be tired of superheroes is like people in the 50s wondering when moviegoers will finally be sick of Biblical epics. Plenty of the audience for those films were not going just because of the content but because that was the most spectacular thing you could see on screen ("Cast of Thousands" etc). Just like they liked cowboy movies in the 60s and disaster movies in the 70s.

When movies can animate any element you want photorealistically into real life, or vice versa, then you essentially have erased the lines between film and animation. After the first-gen experiments with this in the 90s and early 00s, _Avatar _and _Transformers_ really blew it open. As soon as we reached a world where the studio doesn't have to carefully husband the CGI's time on screen because of budget reasons or because of scenarios where it would pop out as fake, then superheroes had a big competitive advantage over monster movies like _Kong Skull Island_ (or _Transformers_ if you see it as a sort of monster movie). Instead of a movie where you spend 1/3rd of the time with the CGI and 2/3rds of the time with a cast of human characters talking into their walkie-talkies about what the CGI will do next, you can just have a story with a protagonist who turns into CGI whenever the story needs.

That's why the two Marvel movies people like the least are: Thor 2 with the very Godzilla-esque tag-along cast of normal and boring human characters; and Iron Man 3 where he has to solve problems without his suit (although I liked that movie).

And on the flip-side this is also why Marvel was able to launch their cinematic universe with the supposed "D-list" character of Iron Man, and why they weren't really taking _as much_ of a risk as people thought at the time with movies like _Guardians_ and _Dr. Strange_ and _Ant-Man_. As long as you put original and exciting spectacle in the movie, you're keeping the main element that is actually attracting audiences. Same reason why DC had a huge success with a movie starring supposedly the _least_ liked character in their main lineup with _Aquaman._

*Anyway I legitimately think Zack Snyder doesn't understand this.* I don't think he gets that superheroes are just a convenient vehicle to have an animated bash-up spectacle-em-up on screen. I believe he thinks these movies mean the dorks have inherited the earth and comic books are cool now. And yeah, that's true to the extent that people like JJ Abrams, Zack Snyder and Joss Whedon get to make big movies. But it's _not_ true that people are going to see these movies because they love the "iconic" or "forever" version of these characters. Just poll a random group of people on the street and ask them if Iron Man is dead or alive. He's perfectly alive in the comics.... just like Batman didn't die or retire just because the _Dark Knight Rises_ version of him did so... but in this case, very unlike Batman, the appeal is the specific incarnation of the character. What's interesting is that despite the "cosmic" stakes of the godlike characters of DC, right now Marvel has higher stakes! people actually cared more if Captain America or Iron Man would die in _Endgame_ than they cared if Batman dies in any movie, ever. Maybe Marvel will eventually ruin this with reincarnations of their characters, but I doubt they will.

And this is why DC isn't getting as many people as Marvel. Leaving aside _Aquaman_, the DC version of a spectacle movie actually isn't as spectacular as a Marvel film. It's people getting thrown back-first horizontally through concrete for forty minutes. Just look at the big statue fight in _Justice League_ where Superman fights the other heroes. It's a snoozefest, literally half the moves in the fight are people getting punched [quick cut] reaction shot of them flying 40 feet and making a little concrete crater when they land. Just the fight between Iron Man & Hulk in _Age Of Ultron_ (which was a _mediocre_ Marvel movie!) has more creativity and real spectacle than all of DC. A lot of which comes from the carefully planned transition of the action sequence through a bunch of different settings and locations which create "mini stories" inside the action sequence like Iron Man trying to save the elevator full of people. DC _mostly_ lacks this.


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## chillbot

Wow gnnoamers with some insight! I think your post is spot-on aside from this:



NoamL said:


> When movies can animate any element you want photorealistically into real life, or vice versa, then you essentially have erased the lines between film and animation.


Hasn't happened yet, not for me anyway. (EDIT: I have no doubt that it will, eventually. When we are as far into the future as we are now from Jar Jar...)


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## NoamL

As one more thought on the end of this huge theory post, this is also why "Marvel Humor" is an essential part of the formula. No matter how much people hate it, "Marvel Humor" is a sort of bubble-poping tension-release mechanism for the normal people in the audience. Part of your brain wants to indulge in goofy popcorn action and part of your brain worries that you're a dork for seeing "Iron Man 3" alone on a Tuesday night. When the movie _makes fun of itself_ in a wry and self aware way then it kind of beats to the punch any anxiety and self-consciousness the audience may be having about watching 90 minutes of a guy in a robot suit punching people who breathe fire. This is different from DC who very _very_ much wants you to be "into" Batman _for the sake of_ Batman (and more so in Snyder films, where Snyder wants you to _unironically_ admire the Jesus symbolism of Superman). Anyway as Marvel became more and more cool and mainstream-accepted this is also why the humor went down a bit as they went from the Whedon era of films into the Russo era; it wasn't needed _as _much.


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## Kent

NoamL said:


> Anyway as Marvel became more and more cool and mainstream-accepted this is also why the humor went down a bit as they went from the Whedon era of films into the Russo era; it wasn't needed _as _much.


Interesting thought. I've always thought that the earlier films were *trying* to be funny (and sometimes were successful, even) and the later films (and WV!) *are actually* funny.


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## marclawsonmusic

NoamL said:


> IMO "superheroes" are just the wrapper for spectacle movies.


That certainly explains it. And it is exhilarating to watch spectacle films... sometimes. It just seems (to me at least) that the spectacle becomes the story rather than supporting it.



NoamL said:


> But it's _not_ true that people are going to see these movies because they love the "iconic" or "forever" version of these characters.


Yes, especially when the comics themselves have multiple versions of each character.


It does seem that the trend is still towards the gritty version of superheroes - focusing more on their flaws and dark side. I thought that was pretty cool... back when Nolan did Dark Knight.  But now it seems to have become a stereotype of its own.

@Consona, what is the argument that this Snyder _spectacle_ will be so different? Why do you think this going to be a game-changer?


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## jononotbono

marclawsonmusic said:


> what is the argument that this Snyder _spectacle_ will be so different? Why do you think this going to be a game-changer?


I want to know this as well. Isn’t it going to still be a film with Batman getting together a group of Super Heroes to fight a villain too powerful for one of them on their own? I mean, that was the plot of Justice League right? I’m now in self doubt as to whether I’m not remembering it properly 😂


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## NoamL

marclawsonmusic said:


> It just seems (to me at least) that the spectacle becomes the story rather than supporting it.


You're correct but it's just a momentary high that people will get over. Whenever something new and exciting comes along people want to squeeze it dry. In a way it's very like what happened to film scoring. Zimmer comes along and blows the doors off of "sound design" scores, and then for a while everyone races to outdo each other with sound design scores which eclipse the importance of other kinds of sophistication/creativity in music, and eventually people get bored of the "big blatty sound" style of filmscoring and the world balances back out again with sound design as an integrated element of a composer's toolkit. If you don't like _Infinity War_ and _Endgame_ then you can take solace in the fact that it's the BRAAAMiest BRAAM of comic book movies; nobody can make a bigger BRAAM so they won't try, and everyone's creative energy will turn to other outlets.


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## marclawsonmusic

jononotbono said:


> I mean, that was the plot of Justice League right? I’m now in self doubt as to whether I’m not remembering it properly 😂


And the plot to _Infinity War_ / _Endgame_!


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## Consona

jononotbono said:


> How do I watch it? Is it available to stream?


Btw, BvS Ultimate Edition remaster will be released soon. It will be in that big IMAX ratio, not the typical flat 16:9. Can't wait to watch it.



NoamL said:


> people actually cared more if Captain America or Iron Man would die in _Endgame_


In 10+ years, MCU did not make me really care about Cap or Iron Man. Stark's death in Endgame felt so "jeez, let's get over with this already". Frodo leaving Sam at the end of the Fellowship left me devastated and in tears. Seeing Stark dying after 10 years of built-up was so meh.

I think non-Disney Marvel film are way better than MCU ones. Days of Future Past were incredible. Logan was really good as well. Even Deadpool 2 was more intersting and bold than any MCU flick. All these were way better than anything MCU has given us so far.



NoamL said:


> the DC version of a spectacle movie actually isn't as spectacular as a Marvel film. It's people getting thrown back-first horizontally through concrete for forty minutes


What?! Batman v Superman alone was more interesting film than all the MCU flicks combined. Watching Disney trying to make something interesting and with depth feels so awkward and laughable most of the time. I'd trade any Snyder DC film over that whole Disney franchise in an instant.

Snyder's films have that mythological larger than life epic shakespearean quality, meanwhile Avengers dine in Shawarma. MCU really feels like plebeian lowest common denominator for the whole family entertainment to me, that's the impression I got over all those years.


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## Richard Wilkinson

Consona said:


> MCU really feels like plebeian lowest common denominator entertainment to me, that's the impression I got over all those years.


But all these teasers for the new Snyder Cut just seem like desaturated, slow-mo effects house reels. I can't get any sense of what the story is, what the characters are like, or what the film is trying to say. Maybe I've missed something obvious but everything I've seen so far looks like a 'style over substance' overload. Very happy to be proven wrong though - I've never seen any of the Justice Leagues so I'll probably watch both (all?) eventually.


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## Consona

Richard Wilkinson said:


> But all these teasers for the new Snyder Cut just seem like desaturated, slow-mo effects house reels. I can't get any sense of what the story is, what the characters are like, or what the film is trying to say. Maybe I've missed something obvious but everything I've seen so far looks like a 'style over substance' overload. Very happy to be proven wrong though - I've never seen any of the Justice Leagues so I'll probably watch both (all?) eventually.


Just watch it make your own opinion. What more can I say...

People using this "style over substance" phrase makes me giggle almost hysterically. People praise crap like Thor Ragnarok or mediocre flicks like Black Panther or Avengers 1, but say it's Snyder who's style over substance (and I don't mean you specifically now).

Yet, here comes Snyder, giving us incredible things like this:


Filled with symbolism and substance in every frame.


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## marclawsonmusic

Consona said:


> Filled with symbolism and substance in every frame.


I understand your perspective. This scene tugs on the emotions because it's very much how _we _would react if something like this actually happened. Kind of like Contact - the best part of that movie (to me) wasn't the FX or plot, but how we humans responded to such an extraordinary event. Everything was questioned - science, religion, life after death, etc.

In a way, the Avengers _Endgame _dilemma was even more compelling... the moral questions raised by Thanos were very complex, and he as a character was both horrifying but also very relatable at times. There were a couple moments during the movie where I could actually understand his perspective - and hated myself for it! I'm sure that was the intent of the filmmakers - the good acting also amplified that. But the 'Thanos' story was innovative - a twist in the genre I had never seen before... so I liked it for that alone.

In the end, for me all of this stuff is still just 'superhero' shit. When you have these god-like beings, it just veers into another realm of fantasy that is honestly a bit fatiguing (for me) right now. Clearly it's not that way for everyone because these movies still pull a shit-ton of box office... at least pre-COVID they did.

Loved that scene though.


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## NoamL

Hmm Consona you called out Thor Ragnarok twice now. I understand your criticism that it's not a very original movie, but shouldn't you acknowledge that it _was_ kind of a risky move at the cinematic-universe scale? They allowed a guy who had never directed a blockbuster film, to significantly reinvent the Thor character, just a year before that character was going to be a core protagonist in their big series finale smashup. I think DC would be more successful if they pulled more moves like that.


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## Consona

marclawsonmusic said:


> In a way, the Avengers _Endgame _dilemma was even more compelling... the moral questions raised by Thanos were very complex, and he as a character was both horrifying but also very relatable at times. There were a couple moments during the movie where I could actually understand his perspective - and hated myself for it! I'm sure that was the intent of the filmmakers - the good acting also amplified that. But the 'Thanos' story was innovative - a twist in the genre I had never seen before... so I liked it for that alone.


Thanos was, to me, the most interesting MCU character.

But his plan was the stupidest "plan" I've ever seen. More than some moral questions, it raised the question of why is the plan so immeselly silly?

Thanos is presented as an intelligent, thoughtful and even sensitive guy, who thinks about and meditates on things, who speaks so calmly and deliberately, a philosopher and a scientist. They show how he mourns for those he has lost, to make him more humane; they show him explaining his motives, to make his actions feel thought-through and justified...

• He wants to help people, wants life to thrive.

• He gathers the stones that give him the power to change virtually anything, in this incredibly vast ever-expanding universe.

• His thought-out plan is to kill half of all life to achieve that...

• Human population in a hospitable environment can get back from a half of its amount to the full in somewhere between one or two generations. Some animals way faster, some not, aliens would probably be akin to humans.

*→ So!* Thanos does all of that so in just like 30 to 50 years, the population of the whole universe is back again where it was before the snap!!!

*→ AND* he destroys the stones! So he can't do the snap, or anything that could actually really help, again!!!

It's sooo stupid. :/

...Seems the filmmakers fell into a trap, they wanted a highly relatable AND super-intelligently imposing villain, AND needed to make that iconic comicbook snap moment, but couldn't pull it off, making it all work together.


Also, story-wise, I thought Endgame had a huge problem because the Thanos they were against was some different guy, *who had nothing to do with the events of Infinity War*. It was a different person who had not made the snap, with no experience of fighting Avengers in Wakanda, killing Gamora, fighting Tony and others on Titan, etc. So in the whole 11 years/20+ films finale, they are fighting some _other_ guy. 

I really liked the second act, the time-travel part of the film, that was done really well, IMO.
The third act battle was a huge mess, with badly structured stakes and badly done sense of topology. Felt all over the place and half-baked.
Every time I see something like that, I recall Jackson's Helms Deep or Pelennor Fields, where it's all done so greatly. Disney producers and directors sure as hell we not anywhere near the Jackson's mad lad creative explosion mind during his acme.
I'm curious how will Snyder's LotR-like scenes look in his JL.



NoamL said:


> Hmm Consona you called out Thor Ragnarok twice now. I understand your criticism that it's not a very original movie, but shouldn't you acknowledge that it _was_ kind of a risky move at the cinematic-universe scale? They allowed a guy who had never directed a blockbuster film, to significantly reinvent the Thor character, just a year before that character was going to be a core protagonist in their big series finale smashup. I think DC would be more successful if they pulled more moves like that.


Risky? They made a big budget colorful action comedy, they knew MCU fans, "film critics" and general audience will love it to death. At that point, MCU was pushed through the media as "can't do wrong" for several years, and it was all so over-hyped.
To me, it feels like people eat up anything MCU throws at them and will call it a modern masterpiece no matter how shitty it is.
I tried to rewatch Ragnarok multiple times, the story is so boring, the humor so cringy, Hela is such a bland villain. There's like 2 great scenes in a 2 hour tiresome snorefest.

And I'm saying that as someone who liked some things from Taika before he joined Disney. But this was one of the most irritating experiences I've had in a cinema.
And seeing Thor in Infinity War made me dislike Ragnarok even more. IW has easily the best portrayal of Thor in MCU, IMO.


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## Consona

Anyway...


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## Consona

Okay, so Snyder gave Superman This! Is! SPARTA! moment.  This is gonna be such a wild ride.


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## Consona




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## Consona

Holy f******k, that amazonian war cry makes those ladies feel more awesome than all those insane badass 300 Spartans.


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## Consona

HBO "accidentally" streamed Snyder Cut instead of Tom and Jerry.


Kids must have been like:


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## Consona




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## Consona




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## AdamKmusic

Full soundtrack is now out on Apple Music etc, just listening to it now I’ve missed the MoS theme! Can’t help but feel the strings sound very sample-y. I guess we’ll find out later today/this week when JXL releases his new studio time season video


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## Consona




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## Ahmad Ali

AdamKmusic said:


> Full soundtrack is now out on Apple Music etc, just listening to it now I’ve missed the MoS theme! Can’t help but feel the strings sound very sample-y. I guess we’ll find out later today/this week when JXL releases his new studio time season video


It was sprinkled in many cues

here at 3:00



Dark version from BvS



Theme in its full glory


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## Grizzlymv

Ahmad Ali said:


> It was sprinkled in many cues
> 
> here at 3:00
> 
> 
> 
> Dark version from BvS
> 
> 
> 
> Theme in its full glory



don't forget this one:


nicely done.


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## Ahmad Ali

Grizzlymv said:


> don't forget this one:
> 
> 
> nicely done.



There’s so much music I haven’t even gone through half of it yet :D


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## Consona




----------



## Christoph Pawlowski

Consona said:


>



Well, nothing tops Hans Zimmer's batman, to be honest, but Tom is amazing too!


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## Ahmad Ali

I love Batman's theme from BvS but it wouldn't fit at all in this movie. Tom's theme is also great. Loved it the minute it was introduced as Bruce travels to find Aquaman.


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## storyteller

Well, i have to say after sitting down to watch his epic, 4hr story that I think this is Zack Snyder’s masterpiece. Don’t get me wrong, I still like Man of Steel better... and JL: Snyder Cut probably won’t get nearly as many rewatches for me as other movies... But, if I am being completely objective, this movie is a 10/10 on all fronts. The story, the cinematography, the pacing, the acting, the aspect ratio, color grading, literally everything. As for the score, I like a few cues, especially The Crew at Warpower anthem that gets reimagined throughout... but overall it isn’t a full soundtrack that I’d listen to over and over again. But I do think it fits the movie perfectly and I think it is probably exactly what Snyder wanted for his vision and exactly what the film needed. Tom did an incredible job with it as well. Scoring 4 hrs is madness. Amazing job to everyone involved in this!


----------

