# Using Zimmer's music, calling yourself the composer of it?



## cmillar (Dec 19, 2014)

I'm just wondering... do you think that a composer can work out a deal to arrange some of Hans Zimmers' music, and then put it on his website and advertise himself as a composer?

Seems a little un-ethical?

This composer has a piece on his site (as the main selection) entitled "What Are You Going to Do Now?"

It's purely an arrangement of Zimmer's piece of the same name from the 'Man of Steel' movie!

Wondering what you all think? I'd write Hans Zimmer himself, but I don't think there's any way to do that.

I think this should be 'called out.'

http://www.tomhuntmusic.com/


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## José Herring (Dec 19, 2014)

No. It's illegal.


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## José Herring (Dec 19, 2014)

And, just listened to it. This composer is really stupid. What was he thinking?


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## SterlingArcher (Dec 19, 2014)

josejherring @ Fri Dec 19 said:


> And, just listened to it. This composer is really stupid. What was he thinking?


 
To just keep his head down and hope no one would notice. I don't know what legally could be done but I'm sure Warner has very good lawyers


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## guydoingmusic (Dec 19, 2014)

Not to mention, it is a horrible version!


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## José Herring (Dec 19, 2014)

SterlingArcher @ Fri Dec 19 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > And, just listened to it. This composer is really stupid. What was he thinking?
> ...



The only thing they can do really is send him a cease and desist type letter and scare him into taking it down. Taking him to court would be a waste of time, as long as he's not selling it there would be nothing to get from him. Now if he places it somewhere then that's a different matter.

But, he's so small right now that any effort on anybody's part would be a waste of time.

I just can't believe that there are people in the world that are so desperate that they can't even create their own two note motive. He could have stolen the progression out right and just inverted the intervals and he would have been fine. But, he didn't even do that.


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## Christof (Dec 19, 2014)

Well, it's stupid, but the internet is full of such things.
But it is also stupid to tell on this guy on a public forum.
"Look Hans what this prat did with your music!!"

Come on, this boy writes dressage music, not Man Of Steel II.


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## kaiyoti (Dec 19, 2014)

Listened to it... I don't know how it's 


> It's purely an arrangement of Zimmer's piece of the same name from the 'Man of Steel' movie!



There are definitely similarities, but vastly different. It's obvious that he was inspired from Zimmer's piece but I wouldn't say it's the same.


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## dcoscina (Dec 19, 2014)

If he was going to rip off a composer, he should have been smart enough to rip off a dead composer like Prokofiev or Shostakovich like James Horner does rather than the most popular film composer that is currently working. BA-ZING!

[disclaimer- I really enjoy Horner's music, classical lifts and all]


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## José Herring (Dec 19, 2014)

Actually listened to more of it. For what it is he's not that bad imo.


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## wesbender (Dec 19, 2014)

The only 'ripping-off' here is the title of the track.

He pushes his luck a bit with the piano at the beginning, but other than that it's hardly anything more than your usual generic 'epic/uplifting' piece of music. Not unlike that which a horde of other media composers out there are doing at the moment (albeit with more consideration as to how they name their cues).

This thread is a bit unfair to the guy, I think.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 19, 2014)

wesbender @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> This thread is a bit unfair to the guy, I think.



Way unfair.



> It's purely an arrangement of Zimmer's piece



Not at all - assuming you are talking about "What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving The World?"

I don't want to sound like a mod here, but we should be really careful when calling someone out on a public forum. Posting about getting ripped off from an ebay seller b/c he sent you a different item, and refuses to take it back is one thing. There, you have facts to back up your claims. Posting about a composer who writes a piece of music, and claiming it is nothing but a re-arrangement of something else *when it really isn't*, is on an entirely different level. You are basically accusing someone of plagiarism, where there is clearly none. This is not only unethical, in some jurisdictions it is illegal.

Cheers.


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## Casey Edwards (Dec 19, 2014)

Riff nailed it. This is far from ripping any one particular thing off. Defamation at its finest. But hey, free publicity? (kidding)


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## patrick76 (Dec 19, 2014)

"Tom Hunt is the world’s most in-demand composer of dressage freestyles." (from website)

Wow, never heard of "dressage freestyles" before... so I looked it up online and in case I am not the only ignorant one on this forum apparently it involves riding/"dancing" on your horse to music.... I think. Seems like it would fit well in a Christopher Guest film.


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## cmillar (Dec 19, 2014)

josejherring @ Fri Dec 19 said:


> I just can't believe that there are people in the world that are so desperate that they can't even create their own two note motive.




In this case, the gentleman should have AT LEAST credited H. Zimmer in some way; as in '... an arrangement of music by composer Hans Zimmer'; or '... this piece inspired by the music of Hans Zimmer.' 

Some form of decency or respect would be nice.

Back in 1976, ex-Beatle George Harrison was brought to court by another songwriter who claimed that Harrison used his music as the basis for his song "My Sweet Lord". Harrison was found guilty of 'subconsciously' using the other song. Music analysts and theoriticians were brought in court to analyze the music. This case had big repercussions in the music business and helped lead to the creation of laws about how much music you can be allowed to 'steal' or 'borrow' or 'sample' without getting into trouble.

Moral of story? Creation vs. semi-plagiarism? This all leads to many questions and debates.

To be sure, as survey of film music will find many similar cases. BUT, most of the music that has been 'stolen' or 'borrowed' has been from long dead composers..... not from a modern master of the art. 

OR, in cases where relatively recent composers have shamelessly drawn inspiration from someone else, they didn't have a public website that would expose them to the entire musical world.


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## wesbender (Dec 19, 2014)

cmillar @ Fri Dec 19 said:


> In this case, the gentleman should have AT LEAST credited H. Zimmer in some way; as in '... an arrangement of music by composer Hans Zimmer'; or '... this piece inspired by the music of Hans Zimmer.'



So, every time a composer is inspired by someone else's work, they need to formally credit them for the inspiration?

This track is clearly inspired by the music of MoS, but to accuse the guy of arranging someone else's work and passing it off as his own is just completely wrong, on so many levels.


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## asherpope (Dec 20, 2014)

Um if you mean "What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving The World? "...
The tracks sound nothing alike. At most vaguely similar instrumentation. If that's an issue isn't every composer who uses orchestra mixed with guitars and synths a plagiarist?


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## Red (Dec 20, 2014)

Oh wow..... 

I was so confused because 
I heard no plagiarism when listening.



I thought all my years of listening to music, transcribing music and practicing ear training

had resulted in nothing.

A backward step intact. 



I'm somewhat glad, but also sad that the OP was just plain wrong.


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## Martin K (Dec 20, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> > It's purely an arrangement of Zimmer's piece
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree!


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## Resoded (Dec 20, 2014)

Sad to see some of these reactions against a fellow composer. Is he even a member of the forum so he can have a chance to defend himself?


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## Christof (Dec 20, 2014)

As I said before, it is stupid to tell on this guy on a public forum.


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## germancomponist (Dec 20, 2014)

Cmillar, there are much better ways to make yourself likeable in certain people. :? 

I think this is absolutely the wrong way! 

o/~ o-[][]-o


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2014)

cmillar @ Fri Dec 19 said:


> I'm just wondering... do you think that a composer can work out a deal to arrange some of Hans Zimmers' music, and then put it on his website and advertise himself as a composer?
> 
> I think this should be 'called out.'



Not really no.

Let's face it, if it wasn't for the HZ genre, there probably wouldn't be any film music out there today. 

You have to also recognise why this style is so ubiquitous.

(1) It's easy for them to do because it's copying a block chord based genre (not inventing it) and (2) young film directors who don't know anything else want a proven successful formula and (3) it appeals to bottom up audiences. That's what they want to hear which leads to (4) Therefore give them what they want and (5) there is no point 5 which leads to point (6) older film directors who should know better have also fallen into the block chord genre trap.

This is what you're always going to wind up with when kids can't play properly and therefore are unable to improvise. It's very hard to improvise with a mouse. Whenever I see anyone playing keyboards, I can tell in an instant that they're not able to improvise. It usually manifests itself with the fingering (usually unable to use either the thumb or the pinkie) and the tongue sticking out of the side of their mouthes is a bit of a giveaway.

Keyboard drooling is a big problem for a lot of so called players. You can immediately tell when you play one of their keyboards. It's like a sort of ectoplasm all over the keys. You start looking around for an Alien. This is the effect block chords can have on you if you're not careful.

Having said all that, as a sidebar, I would calculate that 99% of the members would not agree with any of the above, BUT! 75% of the 99% are probably seeking medical help for block chord syndrome (BS) and keyboard drool (KD). Whereas I'm confident any emerging survey would reveal that while 1% of the members may agree, 97.75% of the 1% would be unable to add anything to further keyboard drooling issues and it's causes.

Don't see the problem.


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## patrick76 (Dec 20, 2014)

I believe the title of the piece is clearly a nod to the fact that it is inspired by the Hans Zimmer piece. It seems like defining music plagiarism could be a difficult proposition due to the many variations and subtleties of a composition. Perhaps the intent would weigh substantially on defining it. It is always tricky to walk that fine line of creating something similar to what a project is calling for ( ex. "make this sound like Hans Zimmer") without imitating too much and too directly. I would guess we have all been there... I know I have dealt with it before... especially with Thomas Newmann and Hans Zimmer style music. Its great so everyone wants it.


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## Daryl (Dec 20, 2014)

dcoscina @ Fri Dec 19 said:


> If he was going to rip off a composer, he should have been smart enough to rip off a dead composer like Prokofiev or Shostakovich like James Horner does rather than the most popular film composer that is currently working. BA-ZING!
> 
> [disclaimer- I really enjoy Horner's music, classical lifts and all]


Not at all. Ripping off dead composers is useless unless they are also out of Copyright throughout the world. Both the composers you mention would cause problems. :wink: 

D


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## tokatila (Dec 20, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> dcoscina @ Fri Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > If he was going to rip off a composer, he should have been smart enough to rip off a dead composer like Prokofiev or Shostakovich like James Horner does rather than the most popular film composer that is currently working. BA-ZING!
> ...



Celine Dion's "All by myself" sealed the deal for me that copyright should be eternal.


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## Daryl (Dec 20, 2014)

tokatila @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > dcoscina @ Fri Dec 19 said:
> ...


Yeah, but you can't really blame Celine Dion. She only "sang" it. I have to say that I think the Rachmaninoff estate were fairly generous regarding this song.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 20, 2014)

Someone asked to use one of my library tracks for dressage music once. I was very pleased


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## MichaelL (Dec 20, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> tokatila @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> ...





Don't blame Celine. Here's your culprit (but you'd have to be of a certain age to remember this) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqYjnIBZI0

Back to the OP. As we all know, HZ reads this forum and contributes fairly often. So he's very likely to see this thread. His is the opinion that would be most beneficial.

But...dressage music eh? Calling my horse riding friends now.....


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2014)

Red @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Oh wow.....
> 
> I was so confused because
> I heard no plagiarism when listening.



I get very confused in general. But when I watch a film and hear no plagiarism of anything, that's when confusion can turn into something very worrying as you get older.

I sit there thinking, f%$k me, is this music _actually _original? Can't be? Surely not?


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Someone asked to use one of my library tracks for dressage music once. I was very pleased



I found myself wondering if it was possible to plagiarise dressage. Have there been any feasibility studies on that?


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## chibear (Dec 20, 2014)

"Sounding Like" or "making reference to" or "being drawn from" are all grey legal areas and it's usually the guy with the best lawyer and team of experts who wins. 

After listening several times I would disagree that the sample in the OP is a direct ripoff. Maybe "referring to" Zimmer's work would be better terminology.

Now for Canadians here, consider the Northern Ontario fishing commercial that has been drilled into our heads the last 2 summers. That IS a (attempted) ripoff of the Gladiator Waltz and IMO should have been prosecuted as such. Probably the only reason it hasn't is the abysmally poor quality. The composer and producer are also both going to artistic hell for what they did in that minute.

Finally in my little "Waltz Burlesque" I purposefully referenced either the styles of or quoted directly 6 different composers as a joke (that nobody got apparently). So am I guilty of plagiarism or 'ripping off' those composers??


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 20, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone asked to use one of my library tracks for dressage music once. I was very pleased
> ...



Do you mean wearing the same top hat, or platting the horse's tail in the same way say?


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> ...



Yes. I think we may be safe on dressage plagiarism at this juncture.

Actually Steve I've just plagiarised the shit out of Vivaldi. I will answer to the Red Priest at some point but in the meantime. Mwhahaha!


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## MichaelL (Dec 20, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> ...




:lol: ...Stephen, Adrian, if I ever get to the UK, I want to have a pint with you two, and Daryl!


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## Daryl (Dec 20, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Actually Steve I've just plagiarised the [email protected]#t out of Vivaldi.


Me too, last week. In fact it was so bad that he told me he wouldn't be able to sit down for a week. :shock: 

D


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## John Walker (Dec 20, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Having said all that, as a sidebar, I would calculate that 99% of the members would not agree with any of the above, BUT! 75% of the 99% are probably seeking medical help for block chord syndrome (BS) and keyboard drool (KD). Whereas I'm confident any emerging survey would reveal that while 1% of the members may agree, 97.75% of the 1% would be unable to add anything to further keyboard drooling issues and it's causes.



:lol: :lol: 

:D


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 20, 2014)

Vivaldi won't mind. He plagiarised himself all the time anyway.

@Michael - Having a pint with me is very boring I'm afraid. I'm fine for about half a pint. But then I fall asleep. Much to everyone's relief.


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## AC986 (Dec 20, 2014)

MichaelL @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> ...



Yes definitely Mike. I will make Stephen and Daryl drink several pints (of creme de mont) and we will talk of elves and high peaks. And dressage too if you're that way inclined.

[edited by moderator]


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## MichaelL (Dec 20, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Dec 20 said:


> MichaelL @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Sat Dec 20 said:
> ...



I was thinking ale or stout, Adrian. My mum used to put Crem De Mont on vanilla ice cream, which is about where it belongs. 

I'd love to know what the moderator removed. :lol: 

BTW, I A/B listened to the HZ track and the alleged rip.....watered down HZ at best.


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## Dracarys (Dec 22, 2014)

Can't tell if OP is trolling. Is he referring to the intro to this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmd70Z9Buk

I was expecting a rip off of HZ's "Flight" theme.


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## cmillar (Dec 22, 2014)

No trolling.... would just like to see people give credit where credit is due. 

We're supposed to be composers having original ideas. We shouldn't call ourselves 'composers' if we don't come up with something original once in awhile!

H. Zimmer has great original ideas! Give him his due! Lets have some ethics! 

Even previous composers would at least choose a new title to their music based on somebody else's hard work, especially when that composer is still alive and well!

(ie: 
- "Variations on a theme by Composer A or B" - by numerous composers over the years
- "Pulcinella Suite" - Stravinsky borrowing from Pergolesi, but all educated ballet goers would know who it's from.
- "Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis" - R. Vaughan-Williams
- "Rhapsody on a theme by Pagannini" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

There are numerous other examples from the concert music world.

Has our media-driven obsession dumbed us down? Losing our sense of ethics? Losing our sense of trying to be original?

This international forum is fantastic. Not everyone on this forum is trying to copy H. Zimmer or some of the other modern masters of the art of film music.

Many people come here to inform themselves of the current state of VI's in order to help them create original music. 

Even H. Zimmer!

Good questions to ponder over the holiday season!
Season's best to all!


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## MichaelL (Dec 22, 2014)

cmillar @ Mon Dec 22 said:


> No trolling.... would just like to see people give credit where credit is due.
> 
> We're supposed to be composers having original ideas. We shouldn't call ourselves 'composers' if we don't come up with something original once in awhile!...........
> 
> Has our media-driven obsession dumbed us down? Losing our sense of ethics? Losing our sense of trying to be original?




Who made up that rule? 
I never heard it from any of my teachers, and I can't find it in any of my composition books. 
I guess you're talking about "art music."


Re: "media-driven obsession"

Do you make your living writing music?


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## cmillar (Dec 22, 2014)

Yes, I write music and it pays the bills. I also perform.

Not everything I do is for media.... I'm a composer/arranger involved in many different genres, composing original music as needed and arranging as needed.

I had a teacher who once said of himself: "I'm an arranger, not a composer. I can't call myself a composer if I don't come up with the original melody, motif, chord structure. An arrranger re-works the original ideas and crafts it into something else."

His first rule was to give credit to the original composer. Always! Right upfront. 

And his music was used in the LA studios, one of the most famous big bands of history, and in arrangements for many, many, many artists as well as for live shows.

Mind you, he did all his work from the 1940's through the 1980's. 

Maybe times and ethics were different?


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## RiffWraith (Dec 22, 2014)

Not sure what "his music was used in the LA studios" is supposed to mean, but...

You give credit when you use someone else's copyrighted work with permission. This, assuming it's not fair use. You also give credit - I think, but am not 100% sure - when you create a derivative work.

You do NOT give credit when you use someone else's work as a basis to create your own work. So for ex., let's say I get hired to score a film, and receive "Gladiator" as temp score. I base my score off the temp.. I don't lift anything, I don't copy any melodies or precise orchestration - the work is my own, where as I used the temp as a guideline. Do I credit HZ in the liner notes of the soundtrack release? Of course not. Why? Because it is my own original work. Yes, there may be some similarities, but that's true of practically everything out there. Ethics do not play a role here.

Your "Variations on a theme" et al are good examples, but do not apply to this particular case. The composer mentioned in the op did not take a theme that HZ wrote, and adapt it. His music was not an adaptation of HZ's work, nor a variation on a theme that HZ wrote. The fact that there are similarities does not change the fact that he has created his own original work.

Cheers.


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## Ed (Dec 22, 2014)

LOL sounds nothing like Zimmer's track.


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## Jaap (Dec 22, 2014)

Ed @ Mon Dec 22 said:


> LOL sounds nothing like Zimmer's track.



Yeah agree. Two different worlds to be honest... I heard much much worse examples of coyping HZ stuff. It sounds like functional nowadays music. Yeah you can hear influences, but I think every one who writes music for libraries, flim or whatever and is trying to make a living out of it sounds like somebody or some style in a certain way. I see totally no evil here or any reason why he should credit Hans Zimmer.


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## Ed (Dec 22, 2014)

For those who need a reality check...

Try comparing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iu-t1n821M (this) to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsLujv0rbS4 (this). Now here is something that can be considered "too close" ... way too close IMO. 
I'd never want to risk it, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if they got sued for this one. 

There is barely anything the same in the OP's example.


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## eric_w (Dec 22, 2014)

This thread should not exist. Shaming someone because you believe your musical opinion is of ethical superiority? Have some discretion before calling for an internet witch hunt. 

You are seeking to find plagiarism where there is none. Influence maybe, but not plagiarism.


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## MichaelL (Dec 22, 2014)

cmillar @ Mon Dec 22 said:


> Yes, I write music and it pays the bills. I also perform.
> 
> Not everything I do is for media.... I'm a composer/arranger involved in many different genres, composing original music as needed and arranging as needed.




I'm guessing that very little of what you do is for media. 

The idea of being "original" almost sounds quaint in the context of composing for media.

Audiences want familiarity. Complete originality is a tough sell. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "ethics." 

I suppose this means that John Williams isn't really a composer either and he too should be "called-out." :roll: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AokqzpdA3M


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## Dracarys (Dec 22, 2014)

Sorry I don't hear it, this poor composer. The only plagiarism I see is the title, and I'm not even sure that's a thing.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Dec 22, 2014)

This happens all the time. I was surprised to hear large chunks of Joker's theme in Unstoppable. 

Very closely inspired from the Joker's suite from TDK. At this point it's not like Harry-Gregson Williams does not have an idea or two. Filmmakers constantly want something that worked so well in another movie. 

Transformers is another example. Braams for example. A lot of times, its well beyond the composers control. But when you are working with directors who want just that, it becomes very difficult. 

A lot of composers then think its OK because they heard similar stuff in another movie and think of it as the new style of scoring. 

Although the music posted here is not nearly as close to Mr. Zimmer's music as was the music in Unstoppable. And that was a big release!!


Tanuj.


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## markwind (Dec 22, 2014)

This topic should just end imo. It's in bad taste for all the aforementioned.


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