# General Spitfire thread



## Guy Rowland (Feb 27, 2015)

OK.. I hope I won't get into trouble for this, but I've ben told off for going off topic in a specific commercial announcment thread ( http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3855374 ). Anyway, I didn't want to reply there for going further off topic and figured a relative safe haven to discuss any ongoing Spitfire matters might be the place to do it.

I know Spitfire can be a hot potato here. My intent going into this thread is a place where we can be honest, say what we think with no malice and with all fairness. Whether or not you have issues or think they are the greatest developer of all time, I'd love this to be a thread where we can discuss everything without fear of offending anyone, which is where I clearly come unstuck in the CA subforum. And in your case if that means unreserved praise - then unreservedly praise! If you have tips, share them. If you want to just rant and let off steam, don't - the last thing I want is for this to be another battleground.

Spitfire folks, you'd be hugely welcome to join in here of course, but (and I mean this) not if doing so will upset you. You have many many fans here, and I am one too - no, not without reservation in my case, though many others genuinely have nothing but good things to say. For my part, I'll straight talk as much as possible as it seems that's what you appreciate. As a result, you may prefer to just stay in the CA section, of course that's entirely your call.

Here's my dilemma. I like Spitfire products, they've produced some of the best out there. But maybe I've just been very very unlucky or made bad judgement calls, but I find myself inexplicably at the point where I don't know if I should buy from them any more.

First, *Sable*. I jumped in at the beginning on the whole package - seemed like too good a deal to pass up. The range of articulations is breathtaking, the sound and playing is superb. I'm a legato bore (as most of you will know) - I gravitate to those patches first and foremost often when working. And I did find a lot of bumpiness there in 1.0 (even after 1.1 I did a test some months ago on a flowing line, and Sable was the only one I couldn't get a result I was happy with). But no matter - I knew it was still being worked on. The other decision I quickly made was to use the stereo mixes - I was very happy using those in my template, and it keeps resource use modest.

I set up all the instruments with custom keyswitches, belatedly realising that this gave problems for every update, as I needed to then redo them all each time (although I use Cubase, I don't get on with Expression Maps which is another whole subject for another thread). So I held off updating for a while knowing a new consolidated release was coming. It arrived last April, but main mics only - Stereo Mix was November I think. But good things come to all who wait.

The combination adaptive legato patch was the real prize here, couldn't wait to get my hands on it. But the very first phrase I played had horrible bumps in it. Needless to say having waiting many months I was a little disappointed. Right away I contacted support, Harnek was great there and quickly confirmed the issue (right away C4 on that combo patch was horrid). I did keep getting follow up emails to ask how I'd found my support - we agreed he'd close the case to stop these in the knowledge that the issue was ongoing. So it's another few months on now... I'm still actually on 1.1 to stop the endless rejigging of the keyswitches. I did ask support if there was a way to copy these, but I think that was left hanging.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Sable is unusable, far far from it. Folks will be able to post exquisite Sable demos which amply demonstrate what it can do. But for the way I work, leaning a lot on the stereo mix legato, I find I often go to alternates, 2 years after the initial release.

*Earth.* This was an impulse buy, I'll confess. For this kind of thing, as many here will know I'm all about Omnisphere. But the idea of all those great orchestral raw sounds in particular was intriguing. I did my homework and knew immediately what my issue would be though - I wouldn't be able to find my way around all the patches. While the promo was running though, the guys said though that 1.1 was already in progress, with a tag browser. Perfect!

And so here the fault is probably all mine. I guess in my head I figured we were a few weeks away from 1.1. 6 months isn't that long, perhaps, but in my case it comes off the back of Sable. My experience with the library has been exactly as I thought - great sounds and yes some tremendous bent orchestral stuff, but I find that - in the absence of the new version - I nevertheless turn to Omnisphere 99% of the time as I can find something far quicker that way.

*EVO.* So that's where I'm coming from with Evo. Frustrated with Sable, frustrated with Earth, I don't want another product that I can hear is sensational but know exactly where I'll get tripped up again. I made a suggestion that the different EVOs should be arranged by type and fair play and total kudos to the guys within hours it was on the feature list. But you see my problem - will I still be here in September thinking "wonder where that update is?"

So what do you all think? Frankly, do I need to just grow a pair? Should I just adapt and move my template to the Sable main mics, if they're more solid rather than eternally wait for fixes? Is that the price you pay for endless mic positions on endless products, in fact, and you're always best off sticking to the main mics?

Am I better off just biting the bullet with all promo deals and waiting til a product is mature? That seems like a logical option, but in general Spitfire are at the higher price bracket (prices which are perfectly fair and reasonable - bargains for what you get in many case). But in general, of course it raises the "must-buy" bar that bit higher.

I hope folks find this in the spirit with which its intended. We're lucky to have developers of the calibre of Spitfire, truly we are. It's not my intent to bash, but in a musicians-helping-musicians forum I'd love a place where we can discuss Spitfire reasonably and openly without feeling like we should walk on eggshells on the one hand, or engage in thermonuclear war on the other. What do you think? Foolish notion?


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## chrysshawk (Feb 27, 2015)

Hm. I thought I would just chime in and say thanks to you Guy for this post (and thread) - it is good food for thought. 

So many posts on the forum are too hyped (but I suspect that comes with the territory for musicians in general), and this post is truly a "musicians-helping-musicians" post. Although I own a fair bit of Spitfire (BML range), I don¨t own any of the libraries you mention here, and for informaiton value, these aspects are certainly ones I would like to know (for Spitfire, but also for any library company).

Regards, Chris


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## DMarr82 (Feb 27, 2015)

I have a bunch of SFire products. Mural, Sable, Albions, Percussion, etc. For me:

1. The sound of these products is absolutely fantastic.

2. Their support has been great.

3. LOVE their download app, where you can see what you already have, what needs to be upped, etc.

4. Their programming is many times suspect. Specifically the long notes, which never loop quite right. Guy - when you use the word "bump", I wonder if you are talking about the same thing as I - it's this little... well, 'bump' at the loop point. It's because they just pick a loop point, and add a crossfade. I have contacted support about this several times, but they just don't want to fix these things. Not sure why... :/

Other than #4, I am a happy camper.


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## Stiltzkin (Feb 27, 2015)

I think you would have a much easier time with the main mics FOR NOW.

From what I can tell spitfire are growing in a very mature way as a company, they seem to be streamlining everything together in a way that will make things better in the long run, but for now updates do take time.

They seem to be slowly updating each product at the moment to get all the mics out and all of the mics at the same version level - I can only begin to imagine what a crazy task that is.

I have all of the BML line and earth, not evo though (I'm just moving to orchestral tools - that's just because I need some of the articulations they provide, it has nothing to do with spitfire) and was able to produce a full orchestral soundtrack with the BML line - just the main mics on all instruments with a mix made using those.

The difference in the extra mics is minimal, and if you have the computer resources to run all of the BML line with 4 mic positions active as I was able to, it is a very good purchase. The main mics will do you just fine until you start getting bored of the sound, which unfortunately does happen, or maybe that's just me - I find myself creating new mixes just to get tweaky and often convince myself that "I could write better if I had the other mic positions" which just isn't true and is a mentality that needs to be hit back down whenever it arises.

I've never had a problem with spitfire legato other than a small issue that I reported and that was fixed by contacting support within a few days - their support has always been excellent to me.

I wouldn't hold out for other mic positions if I were you, if you have SSDs then you should be able to run at least 2 mic positions easily, and that's enough to give a very accurate representation of what the mix mic would give you anyway - otherwise just nothing but outrigger mics is the way to go imo.

Oh and if you ever need help with expression maps just drop me a pm ^^


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 27, 2015)

I've said it many times: love their products.

But when it comes to the legato in many instruments, I simply jump to another company when the line is too exposed, because I know from experience that I will be spending more time trying to massage the line and will end up with a less convincing result anyway.
I usually go to LASS and in 5 minutes I get what I want.
Whether they will admit to it or not, in anger or not, their legato is not great.

I also agree with the fact that quite a few sustain patches have unusable looping as well. And even though it is surprising to see a product released with that issue, and in the meantime those patches are useless, I worry less about those, since it should be an easy fix...

I read somewhere that their latest horn library has a wonderful legato, so I am hoping that this could benefit their entire line, but I don't remember if those horns were recorded at AIR, which may explain why the legato is better...?


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 27, 2015)

Good sound, some clever programming.

My honest overall impression is: They release products at an unbelievable rate (the CA forum here sometimes reads like a Spitfire newsfeed!), but I feel like they would do well to slow down a bit and address some issues a bit faster. However over the long run, their stuff is usually a good investment as demonstrated by the number of Albion updates. It's nice to see them constantly improving. Perhaps a little more attention to detail could be warranted on the QC stage before releasing updates though. If seen quite a few mistakes in the update uploads and the programming. Slow down, check things more.

I also find that in some products there are notes that just stick out like a sore thumb (in the Albions). The COG goes some ways to addressing that but still makes me think sometimes "How were they ok with that sample?"

Besides the first 3 Albions, the other one I have is HZ01, which is nice, but I was somewhat underwhelmed. However I place less importance on different mic positions than some might. It is an outstanding assortment of different mics. So for me it could use more hits/ensembles, but I'm sure some prefer the insane mic variation.

But overall clearly a very passionate company with no shortage of ideas...


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## british_bpm (Feb 27, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> OK.. I hope I won't get into trouble for this, but I've ben told off for going off topic in a specific commercial announcment thread ( http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3855374 ). Anyway, I didn't want to reply there for going further off topic and figured a relative safe haven to discuss any ongoing Spitfire matters might be the place to do it.
> 
> I know Spitfire can be a hot potato here. My intent going into this thread is a place where we can be honest, say what we think with no malice and with all fairness. Whether or not you have issues or think they are the greatest developer of all time, I'd love this to be a thread where we can discuss everything without fear of offending anyone, which is where I clearly come unstuck in the CA subforum. And in your case if that means unreserved praise - then unreservedly praise! If you have tips, share them. If you want to just rant and let off steam, don't - the last thing I want is for this to be another battleground.
> 
> ...



Hi there,

Thanks for the invite to take part in this, as can be seen I only ever post on the commercial section to "hype" (sic) our goods. Many of the issues you describe are pertinent to your workflow... We have many customers who use our stuff and use it very differently. Whilst not wanting to get personal here I will simply describe my use of the products you describe.

Earth - It's effing big, and what I like about that is there's a good chance when I pick a sound and tweak it that I'm not going to hear it on a laundry powder ad that same afternoon. Are there improvements yes, would we like them to be made soon... but imagine film, media, composers, + record producers suddenly, edm-ers all making recommendations... The update is going to take a while longer... but... it's a v1.0 lib of a totally new range.

Sable & BML - As a composer I think legatos are a bit of an interesting enigma. You can't write with them, because they're monophonic. They're not for sketching really because you have to tweak them to make them work with you're composition (lag etc etc). They don't react as you'd expect always, but as Andy has proven they're world beating when used well. Even HZ himself congratulated AB on his efforts, efforts that are born of understanding the instrument, working with it, learning it.

There are aspects of BML that are the result of us learning on the job... a job that is phenomenal in scale... and will we be updating.... well YES! Was it 14 major updates last year alone... Please find me a company that has beaten us on that front.

EVO - On the front panel of this instrument is a grid of 16 x 16 buttons which I reckon is 256 buttons in total. They're in the middle and they're shiny and nice. Above this grid is one button that is in the shape of a die (or dice). It is a criticism of this button (i think) that has sponsored moving a promotional thread off topic by issuing the claims above. And the complaint is that this button is "too random" of the 257+ buttons onscreen that can change your sound it is the one shaped like a casino die that is criticised for "being too random"

Thanks again for the invite to chime in... 

Best... its always fun to have a bit of a row at pint time on a Friday.

C. x


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 27, 2015)

Wow, loads of fantastic posts, and thanks especially to you, Christian. Loads to respond to, but a few other things to do first. Keep 'em coming!


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## snattack (Feb 27, 2015)

I believe Spitfire is pioneers when it comes to designing Kontakt interfaces and contributing with flexiblity in mic positions and tweeks without being a programmer. I have several of their libraries that I love and use frequently: Percussion, Harp, Piano, Cembalo, all the LABS instruments. Considering buying HZ01 as well.

But, regarding Sable, I agree. I have all the volumes, and was on the train from day one. Still, I'm having difficulties using the legato patches. To be fair: it's very much more difficult making this kind of library due to the amount of players. 4 players is harder to make sound realistic than 8 or 16. The closer to the soloist, the easier "calling the bluff". I still use the flautando patches frequently, they're just gorgeous.

With that said, I'm still not sure there's anything wrong with the library, I believe it's a matter of PEBKAC . Sable depends even more on how a good keyboard player you are, where you have to learn to know the instrument, with all the fine realtime adjustments in modwheel and vibrato, and I simply haven't had time to, so I choose the easier libraries.


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## lucky909091 (Feb 27, 2015)

Guy, I really know the feeling of an "impulse buy" when a new Spitfire library is announced.

I always think I purchased a universal premium product but in practice, I just use a maximum of 5 percent of Spitfire in my daily work.


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## gsilbers (Feb 27, 2015)

since we are being honest. 

Edna was one of the worst puchases ive made. 
all patches sound the same and semi useful.

which is why im apprensive about EVO. 


in general, im very confused to spitfires' offerings. 
the website is complicated and I feel I need a community school diploma to figure out. 

I do have albion 1 and its very good I admit and no complaints. 

overall imo the libs are about $100 more expensive as necessary 

8dio is on the same level of my opinion. hard to figure out the offerings and a bit pricer than it should.


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## prodigalson (Feb 27, 2015)

Another big SF fan here. 

My opinion on their legato is that on some products it's fucking amazing and on other products it's a little more...idiosyncratic. It leads me to believe that that variety sometimes has more to do with the recordings and the instrument than with the programming, perhaps? 

For example, within the BML range, the solo oboe legato is beautiful and incredibly playable, whereas I've found the same line with the solo clarinet needs a little more tweaking. 

I've not used Sable but the legatos on Mural are beautiful and fluid imo. I've used LASS, HS, and 8dio's adagio series and I find Mural legatos no more difficult to work with. Often easier. And often, sounds far better, imo. The only thing I'm still itching for is fast legato for Mural. 

As regards loop points, honestly, the only patch of theirs I have that I've noticed obvious loop points is the sustains in Albion II. So far, I haven't had any problems with loop points on anything else, as far as I can remember. It wouldn't be fair to cast a general issue with loop points on their whole line if there are really only issues with one or two patches within one or two libraries?


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## british_bpm (Feb 27, 2015)

gsilbers @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> since we are being honest.
> 
> Edna was one of the worst puchases ive made.
> all patches sound the same and semi useful.



On point one... sorry to hear that... No way I could possibly argue it...

On point 2... since we're being honest, and in my very humble and usually restrained opinion you are talking a load of complete B*ll*cks.

Sorry, I made pretty much all the sounds for eDNA, and whilst I wouldn't dare argue the "semi useful" point... that's for how useful you feel stuff is for your projects. To say they sound the same is just not the case.... surely??!! It is a cripplinlingly unfair comment especially as we/ I and spitfire has taken the time to play out EVERYSINGLEPATCH from EVERYSINGLE CARTRIDGE on our website so you can literally hear EVERYSINGLE preset we have spent 5 years making.... It's like hours of YouTube footage.... what do you think we've been doing? Some John Cage minimalist experiment??? I challenge someone from these videos to find you in seconds a sound that doesn't sound the same...

Nuts, ok I'm sure I've overstayed my invitation here and will get back to hyping on the commercial threads as I usually do.... it's been interesting, if not particularly helpful. We look forward to your feedback on the v1.1 Evo update soon. This will be born of the incredibly valuable feedback we've from other members of VI-C.

Best and much love as always.

C. x


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## Stiltzkin (Feb 27, 2015)

british_bpm @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> gsilbers @ Fri Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > since we are being honest.
> ...



With all due respect, I believe this here is what was hoping to be avoided from this particular thread. This person does have every right to state their mind, it's up to us as buyers to judge whether or not we should take their opinion into account, ideally without colouring from developers who are (understandably) angry at such remarks.


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2015)

I don't own that many Spitfire products but I am a fan.


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## british_bpm (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm with you totally, but I was invited onto this thread, and someone has said something totally ridiculous. I made a point of not arguing with his/her subjective views. But to say that everything "sounds the same" on his/her middle point is in my humble opinion b*ll*cks. An opinion I was invited to air by taking part in this thread... Whilst my reaction may sound aggrieved I do invite a retrospective opinion on the great lengths we have gone to play e v e r y s i n g l e patch we have made for this library on our site and YouTube channel. Whilst I would never dream of arguing that it all sounds a bit s**t or it doesn't fit "anything I'm doing"... to say it all sounds the same is just not true... If he or she was in a pub with me that's exactly what I would say, and that's why I use that word. It's not an accusation of libel, nor defamation to a product I personally designed, it's simply my opinion, and my opinion.... invited onto to this thread... is that the right honourable poster is talking a load of b*ll*cks...

Just on that one point... 

The rest I'd love his/her feedback on, as we've always shown, we'd like to make stuff that people like making... And for me eDNA-Earth is *"The B*ll*cks"* amazing how the application of a "the" can transform the meaning....


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 27, 2015)

Christian - by all means passionately disagree (I'm with you by the way - Earth sure doesn't sound samey to me) but very keen to keep this thread from spiralling downwards. And with that (and apologies in advance for snipping posts to stop this one being 3 pages long):



DMarr82 @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> 4. Their programming is many times suspect. Specifically the long notes, which never loop quite right. Guy - when you use the word "bump", I wonder if you are talking about the same thing as I - it's this little... well, 'bump' at the loop point. It's because they just pick a loop point, and add a crossfade. I have contacted support about this several times, but they just don't want to fix these things. Not sure why... :/
> 
> Other than #4, I am a happy camper.



Mostly when I mean bump I mean one of the following:

A rough velocity transition
Truncated ambience in legato crossfades (that super-bothers me, I think I have a super-hieghtened sensitivity to it... the whole illusion collapses for me right there)
Other cross-fade shenanigans

I actually haven't found too many loop glitches though.



Stiltzkin @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> I wouldn't hold out for other mic positions if I were you, if you have SSDs then you should be able to run at least 2 mic positions easily, and that's enough to give a very accurate representation of what the mix mic would give you anyway - otherwise just nothing but outrigger mics is the way to go imo.



Its something I need to investigate further. When I run LASS A, B, C and FC (so 4 streams on multi velocity) my rig is happy as Larry. But I have had issues before with just 2 mics on Spitfire legato patches, they do seem very resource-heavy for some reason. My quiet period seems ever more elusive, but when it finally arrives it's something I'll look at. Until now I've always figured I'm happy with just one position, but if pragmatism suggests I should ditch the stereo mixes cos they're not as good programming-wise, then I'll have to rethink. 

Definitely keen to hear if anyone else has experience of the mixes and main mics and notices any difference in the quality of the programming.



Patrick de Caumette @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> But when it comes to the legato in many instruments, I simply jump to another company when the line is too exposed, because I know from experience that I will be spending more time trying to massage the line and will end up with a less convincing result anyway.
> I usually go to LASS and in 5 minutes I get what I want.
> Whether they will admit to it or not, in anger or not, their legato is not great.



Certainly that's true for me in Sable, but I should add that their fast legato seems really good for that type of playing. But I too have encountered the exact same thing of just shouting "oh b**ks to this" when massaging a sable line and just doing it in LASS in 30 seconds flat. Then pragmatism kicks in and I throw it all at LASS, even though the size is wrong, but everything then has to match.

Incidentally, I ADORE the shorts in Sable. Absolutely gorgeous they are.



Echoes in the Attic @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> My honest overall impression is: They release products at an unbelievable rate (the CA forum here sometimes reads like a Spitfire newsfeed!), but I feel like they would do well to slow down a bit and address some issues a bit faster. However over the long run, their stuff is usually a good investment as demonstrated by the number of Albion updates. It's nice to see them constantly improving. Perhaps a little more attention to detail could be warranted on the QC stage before releasing updates though. If seen quite a few mistakes in the update uploads and the programming. Slow down, check things more.



Here I do have to agree all round.



Echoes in the Attic @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> HZ01, which is nice, but I was somewhat underwhelmed. However I place less importance on different mic positions than some might. It is an outstanding assortment of different mics. So for me it could use more hits/ensembles, but I'm sure some prefer the insane mic variation.



I'm really happy with HZ01 sonically. I like that there are unusual instruments in there. I'm generally sceptical about the mic position thing, but this goes a long way to demonstrating how much variety you can get. Personally I'd have been happy with the original 3 artist mixes, leave all the other variations and then really go to town on the UI - there's so much that can be done with HZ01. LADD take it to a whole new level... it doesn't have to be that feature-rich, but there's scope for more, no doubt about it.



Echoes in the Attic @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> But overall clearly a very passionate company with no shortage of ideas...



Absolutely.



british_bpm @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Earth - It's effing big, and what I like about that is there's a good chance when I pick a sound and tweak it that I'm not going to hear it on a laundry powder ad that same afternoon. Are there improvements yes, would we like them to be made soon... but imagine film, media, composers, + record producers suddenly, edm-ers all making recommendations... The update is going to take a while longer... but... it's a v1.0 lib of a totally new range.



Definitely looking forward to it and - as is usually the case - better to wait and get it right than rush something out. The sheer volume of stuff you guys do is mind boggling - it has its positive and negative aspects.



british_bpm @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Sable & BML - As a composer I think legatos are a bit of an interesting enigma. You can't write with them, because they're monophonic. They're not for sketching really because you have to tweak them to make them work with you're composition (lag etc etc). They don't react as you'd expect always, but as Andy has proven they're world beating when used well. Even HZ himself congratulated AB on his efforts, efforts that are born of understanding the instrument, working with it, learning it.



I'm not surprised he did - AB's work with your libraries is extraordinary. To the point where I think some of us feel hopelessly inadequate in our humble abilities....

But you raise an interesting point. Actually as a composer I love composing one instrument at a time, which is why I use legato so much. I think my better compositions come that way. I'm often hearing other lines in my head as I play the first one, but other times it's kinda fuzzy.... I play one line, go to the next instrument and try to come up with an interesting line and so on. I couldn't compose the stuff I'm most happy with by trying to sketch it out on a sus patch, I don't seem to work that way. Course for quick and dirty, that's another matter...

So I love composing using legato patches. Maybe that's why I have more issues than some (but I see they are shared here with others). It's why I'm so excited about the potential for your adaptive legato patches, that is so appealing to me. But if a legato patch sounds wrong, it can be a real buzzkill, hence why Patrick and I might go scurrying off to another library.

If you're still around in this thread, I'd appreciate your thoughts on main mics vs mixes, purely from the perspective of programming effort - do you honestly think main mics might be the most solid?



british_bpm @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> EVO - On the front panel of this instrument is a grid of 16 x 16 buttons which I reckon is 256 buttons in total. They're in the middle and they're shiny and nice. Above this grid is one button that is in the shape of a die (or dice). It is a criticism of this button (i think) that has sponsored moving a promotional thread off topic by issuing the claims above. And the complaint is that this button is "too random" of the 257+ buttons onscreen that can change your sound it is the one shaped like a casino die that is criticised for "being too random"



The issue for me is the EVOs themselves being assigned an essentially random number (not quite - I get the idea that the lowest numbers are the simplest). Your propsed solution sounds perfect, it really does, grouping them by feel is excellent, then you can use that to inject targeted randomness. Where I'm coming from is that this feature isn't so much a bolt on, but an essential part of making the product what it is. Hence my conundrum of whether / when to buy.

(incidentally, I do also get that this is a new idea that you've taken loads of suggestions on board with - love that you do that).



snattack @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Sable depends even more on how a good keyboard player you are



Maybe that's where I'm going wrong! It's hard to square that with the massaging needed though... (talking purely about legato again).... I think there are other issues too.



lucky909091 @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Guy, I really know the feeling of an "impulse buy" when a new Spitfire library is announced.
> 
> I always think I purchased a universal premium product but in practice, I just use a maximum of 5 percent of Spitfire in my daily work.



GAS is such a distraction, eh? And when you hear those gorgeous demos...

As the years have gone by, I try to pay more and more attention to the UI and the workflow of a product. Cos I know that if it sounds like the best library in the world but it's fiddly to use, I won't use it. All the NI synths in the world can't hold a candle to Omnisphere for me, cos Spectrasonics got the UI right - musical, common sense, not technical.



gsilbers @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> since we are being honest.
> 
> Edna was one of the worst puchases ive made.
> all patches sound the same and semi useful.
> ...



Hmm, I don't agree with this. There seemed a huge variety to me. In fact, that was part of the problem. I sort of kick myself though - I saw this clearly before I bought it, but when I found out about the 1.1 changes I jumped in. My view hasn't changed at all - if it goes the way I'm hoping it will, it could become an awesome platform. Maybe I'm just too darned impatient.

Trouble is, Omni 2 is going to be just the nuts. Earth will really need to compete on the UI to stop it getting overlooked in action.


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## Daryl (Feb 27, 2015)

british_bpm @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> And for me eDNA-Earth is *"The B*ll*cks"* amazing how the application of a "the" can transform the meaning....


Not without the addition of a canine. :wink: 

D


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## sin(x) (Feb 27, 2015)

It's been a while since I've seen anyone self-censor the word “bollocks”, but I do applaud your consideration for the 7 year olds among our members. :mrgreen:


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## AC986 (Feb 27, 2015)

Don't have Evo or Earth and probably never will. A lot of the time I can't justify a lot of this kind of stuff, especially when I compare it to Omnisphere or even Alchemy or Zebra. Yes, I know it's different. Or meant to be different. I have to justify using what I'm going to buy, long before I buy it, otherwise it just sits there like an unexploded bomb. Grosso for example, in my case. But not Minimal.

Sable is good and I use it either alone or as an additive but I don't do that much orchestral work. Shorts are very good, maybe the best out there.

Mural is good but if you're strictly talking about legato and not necessarily sound, VSL still have the best legato out there imo. Mural with VSL's legato would rock. Shorts are good and the sound is very good.

There's a cut off point to how much orchestral library material people need in my view. Depends on what you want to write and do most of the time.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 27, 2015)

gsilbers @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> since we are being honest.
> 
> Edna was one of the worst puchases ive made.
> all patches sound the same and semi useful.



I guess it depends on what kind of music you produce, but I have found EDna to be very useful, especially as additional layers in an hybrid type track...
Looking forward to an update with easier browser and classified patches...


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## Dryden.Chambers (Feb 27, 2015)

My feeling is that because someone owns a product they feel they can tell someone how to run there company and talk crap whenever they want on a public message board and that unfortunately is wrong.

Having a developer participate on a forum such as this instead of just pitch there goods should be looked upon as a privilege, unfortunately some take it to the limits out of lack of respect, understanding, or manners and will ruin it for us all. I will not let anyone forget it if it indeed happens.

Christian, you know I consider you and your team great friends but you have to have a bit of a thicker skin sometimes. Its the EPL here and when someone criticizes or talks crap you just have to not let it get under your skin and not be such a Scot : )

Lastly, It is bizarre to me the amount of whining on here about products and laziness when it comes to contacting the developer directly especially one with such top customer service. (even if they do spend time with there families on weekends and holidays. Sometimes it smells of jealousy or dare I say even schilling for another company.

I think eDNA rocks, but understand if it does not float ones boat, but perhaps you should of studied the product better before investing in it.
Everything sounds the same seems to me like someone who has listened to a couple you tube video going through hundreds of patches quickly and not someone who actually has the product to use.


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## playz123 (Feb 27, 2015)

My comments will be restricted to fairly simple ones. First, I am one of the type Guy mentioned...a fan of Spitfire. Two, yes some of their products require some updates etc., but I still feel I have more flaws than the products do.  What I mean by that is that I am continuing to strive to learn how to use these libraries properly and get the most from them, rather than focusing on some things that might be improved. Nothing wrong with suggesting improvements if that is done in a constructive manner, and also I'm sure Spitfire actually appreciates user feedback. They've certainly proven to me over the years that they do listen.

As for Christian's comments here, I will just say thank you to him for participating and expressing his views, and I don't feel he needs to be chastised for his thoughts or be told he needs to have a thicker skin or whatever. It's those types of comments that turn developers away from participating in open and frank discussions here, and that's the last thing I want to see happen.

Like everyone else, I have been patiently awaiting updates and the additional mics for some of the libraries, and yes, like Guy (if I remember correctly) I do like the mix mics, which I don't yet have for a few libraries. But then again the advice to just use the main mics for now is, IMHO, a solid suggestion, and I appreciate the flexibility that comes with that set of mics. With respect though, I do encourage Spitfire to keep issuing updates and the additional mics, and please don't let the release of new products affect that process.

Unlike perhaps some others, I have never been disappointed by any Spitfire library that I have purchased. I am missing a few, but overall I've been very pleased. One of the most consistent developers on the planet when it comes to quality.

My last comment is that the main reason I like Spitfire libraries is the magic that happens when some are used together. I've been around a long time, yet am still in awe of what can happen when a few of these libraries are combined. Brilliant.


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## prodigalson (Feb 27, 2015)

> very keen to keep this thread from spiralling downwards



With all due respect Guy, having been around this forum as long as you have, I should think you wouldn't be surprised at the way these kinds of threads go. 

IMO, you can't start a thread asking people to air their praise and grievances aimed at one particular developer AND invite that developer to take part and NOT expect this kind of response. no matter how much you couch it in a kind of "now, I don't want any bickering here BUT..." attitude. 

People are entitled to their opinions sure but developers are perfectly entitled to defend their products. 

On another point, I'm not sure I understand your conundrum regarding "when to buy". If you acknowledge a product sounds great and acknowledge that eventually your concerns re said product will be addressed why not just buy now with the intro discount and get the free update whenever it's released? if you're going to buy anyway...


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## mk282 (Feb 27, 2015)

Patrick de Caumette @ 27.2.2015 said:


> But when it comes to the legato in many instruments, I simply jump to another company when the line is too exposed, because I know from experience that I will be spending more time trying to massage the line and will end up with a less convincing result anyway.
> I usually go to LASS and in 5 minutes I get what I want.
> Whether they will admit to it or not, in anger or not, their legato is not great.



Sooo, how does Andy Blaney manage to make legato in SF products sound THAT great? He's using the same patches you are!


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 27, 2015)

prodigalson @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> > very keen to keep this thread from spiralling downwards
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think most here have taken it in the spirit I intended - lots of posts saying the things they love and they things they don't. Not that hard really when I put it like that, is it?

I guess the when-to-buy problem really goes back to Sable. If it stays like this forever, will I regret buying it? Tough call. So love the shorts, and of course I've used the longs too - I've just been very restricted in what I use it for because of the way I choose to work. Could very well be my problem not theirs. Andy B could post a demo tomorrow of exquisite flowing Sable legato - it's just I can't do it, but I can with other libs. In a sense it doesn't matter - I know how I like to work and what pushes ma buttons. And Sable, in the form I have it and the way I use it, hasn't been all I'd hoped.

That's also true for Earth. That might change overnight with 1.1. Also true of Sable if those bumps are smoothed and I can play clean legato lines in the way I like, suddenly the worth of the library quadruples to me. But it's all in the future (or maybe present with Main Mics???). Or maybe for whatever reason(s) it never comes.

Do I keep buying new great sounding products hoping that it all pays off? That's the part of Spitifre that ultimately led to the creation of this thread.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 27, 2015)

mk282 @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ 27.2.2015 said:
> 
> 
> > But when it comes to the legato in many instruments, I simply jump to another company when the line is too exposed, because I know from experience that I will be spending more time trying to massage the line and will end up with a less convincing result anyway.
> ...



Sorry, this is a moronic comment.
Great talent aside, Andy is writing for the samples, not the way around.
If you had been doing this long enough, you would know that there is a big difference when you write original material that takes into consideration the instrument's limitations, and when you ask of the instrument to play what it is that YOU need.
Big difference

A long time ago, a sax library came out and a demo was posted. Nobody liked it.
I offered to do a demo for the developer, and all of sudden the library was much better.
The library was the same.
All I did was to find the lines that would work well within the limitations of the product.

But if you hear a phrase, and you want that phrase and nothing else, well, that's when you find out how flexible an instrument is.
And I can pull off more from LASS legato than from Sable any day of the week.

I use SF all the time and really enjoy it.
But when I stated how hard it is to have a simple line that has a couple of connected legato notes going smoothly into a short/stac, even Andy had to admit that they were still working on that, and that the fact that the instruments were sampled in a large, reverberant space was the reason why it was so challenging.
And I completely understand that.

These guys are smart.
I am sure that if they keep refining those scripts we'll get there.
But it doesn't take away the issue today...

I don't intend to keep throwing that issue at their face everyday, but since you made that silly, sarcastic remark, I had to chime in again...


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## David Gosnell (Feb 27, 2015)

I think, and this is important to me, that Spitfire's hearts are in the right place. For my purposes, I think they have made some unhelpful choices, but sadly they don't make their libraries for me - like most composer/vendors, I think they start out making libraries for themselves and then hopefully make more universally useful products after feedback as time goes on. I think the regular updates to many of their original core products show this willingness to take things on board.

When I hear lazy generalised criticism responded to by open aggression, my heart sinks a little. We do need to be careful not to push devs open to feedback towards the attitude displayed by some of their larger competitors whose response to criticism is 'our products have no faults, you're wrong and if you don't like our stuff, you don't have to buy it, we so successful we don't need your business...' Etc.

I got really disappointed with the Sable and Mural legatos until I sussed that speed control (which I assume under the hood effects sample start points) had a dramatic effect on 'smoothness'. I'm not yet comfortable with Mural on a day-to-day basis, but Sable is getting more and more central to my template, it is capable of an emotional intensity to which for me, only Berlin strings can come close. Also, as so much film and trailer music employs small overdubbed sections, it is often the only tool to get the right sound.

I am by no means a 'fanboi' - the badly looped longs are a hideous schoolboy error which should never have passed QC before V1.0 releases, and for me at least, the Air Studios room sound causes hugely problematic noise build up when you put the ensembles together (not an uncommon disease, making samples that sound sexy on their own but it all gets really muddy around 100Hz when you play a few of them together) and I really wish they'd damped the bloody shed a bit better, and 4 mics and a stereo mix are more than enough.... But what is important is that I feel they're still on our side, and I'd love to keep them that way.


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## prodigalson (Feb 27, 2015)

My apologies Guy, I do agree that most of the posts in this thread have been constructive but I took what you said below as chastising Christian a bit for what, to me, was a passionate but not unreasonable post.



> Christian - by all means passionately disagree (I'm with you by the way - Earth sure doesn't sound samey to me) but very keen to keep this thread from spiralling downwards



When someone is allowed to make a generalized statement like 'all 1000 of these patches sound the same' someone should be allowed say "that's b*ll*cks". 

Regarding the when-to-buy conundrum, I hear you on that. It's frustrating to buy a library and feel let down by some aspects of it. Here's my take on it:

It's somewhat the risk we take when purchasing these products. Every library has its strengths and weaknesses, nothing is perfect. And every developer has it's shining lights of technical achievement alongside it's..um...less-than-shiny releases (certainly not talking about Sable here, I've never used it). Like most of us here, I have a lot of products from a lot of developers. Some I am cautious about before buying and do my homework due to being burned in the past (there's one particular developer I basically never use ANY of their products that I spent a lot of money on.)

But Spitfire is not one of those developers. Of all the products I own of theirs (everything but Sable), I truly am happy with all of them bar one. SO I can reasonably say when they release a new product that if it fits into my aesthetic I will buy it because the CHANCES are I'll be happy. Of course, there's always risk, HZ02 is the one library I still can't use for my purposes thus far. It's frustrating and who knows when it'll be addressed. But one out of two dozen is pretty good going. 

Also, not every library is going to suit my workflow or my music. They have their own ethos about what it is THEY would like to see in products and most of the time, that gels with mine, sometimes it doesn't. But I have to make an educated guess about whether or not I can get good use out of a product and take that leap. 

It would be amazing if every developer did what 8dio did with their agitato line and give a free one 8ve demo...but I don't think that's going to happen.

In the meantime, I think that just like with anything else we invest in, we have to make our best educated decision based on past experience and all current information and evaluate risk. If that means your experience with Sable leads you to wait until a product has been updated to your liking, then so be it. If it means saying well, hey, it might not be 100% perfect for me right now but based on past experience I'm sure i can get something out of it and hope that down the line they update to my liking.

I'd go with the latter, especially given their specificity regarding the eDNA update and EVO update. But yeah, maybe the updates will never come..that's the risk.


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## stixman (Feb 28, 2015)

This is a good useful thread!
I must say that I have been on the fence as regards buying from SFA after so many times placing products in the cart to buy (apart from Plucked Piano) due to various reasons ie imo somewhat overpriced, at times overhyped,practical usefulness for my workflow like seperate cymbals without bass drum hits!!! etc but I decided to take the plunge with Evo as the forthcoming update sounds very promising and I will now incorporate SFA into my future compositions.
I am happy that Spitfireaudio brought Evo onto the market and should be applauded imo.
=o


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 28, 2015)

prodigalson @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> When someone is allowed to make a generalized statement like 'all 1000 of these patches sound the same' someone should be allowed say "that's b*ll*cks".



Of course. But its as much the tone of it as anythng - in the past great offence has been taken, threats of leaving the forum etc etc. That's what was concerning me, so an appeal to all sides to keep things from going down the nuclear route seemed reasonable.



prodigalson @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Also, not every library is going to suit my workflow or my music. They have their own ethos about what it is THEY would like to see in products and most of the time, that gels with mine, sometimes it doesn't. But I have to make an educated guess about whether or not I can get good use out of a product and take that leap.
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> ...



That's exactly it I think. I'm getting better at reading a library before I buy it from past experience. In general I think the main orchestral ranges aren't really for me - the legato is too tricksy, though I absolutely acknowledge that a) others can make it work better than I and b) the fast legato patches are really working well. I'm not sure they've said anything concrete about further fixes to the stereo mixes, I take it on good faith that it's being worked on though after my support ticket was closed. Still very keen to hear any direct experiences between working in anger between Sable main mics and mic mixes. But I guess the bottom line is if I can't make something work after 2 years of updates, I'd be foolish to buy similar products in the hope that it'll be ok next time.

My sense at the moment is that Evo will be something I'll really like, and if 2-3 weeks grows to 2-3 months for 1.1, I'll just have to be patient. Earth I think also I will like much more in v1.1, but there's a unique issue there with competition from Omni 2 that is absolutely ferocious.


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## Andy B (Feb 28, 2015)

I've been in two minds about posting a reply, but there's quite a bit of misinformation in this thread – and some of the way the criticism is worded I would have a problem with if spoken directly in conversation. So I think it's important to address a few issues raised. 

Firstly, no library is perfect and Sable is no exception, but to suggest you can't pull off a simple legato line is nonsense:

[mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE%20ET.mp3[/mp3]

non-flash:

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE ET.mp3

I've played that in this morning using the Sable legato Performance Palette patches for 1st and 2nd violins. Just the one patch for each instrument, no key-swicthing, no effects added.

Secondly, I have to take issue with the idea that my demos are written purely for the samples. After I've finished programming the legato patches in one of our libraries I normally have about two days to write a piece. If you listen to the demos I've produced I don't think that many of them would fit into that compositional idiom that most of us recognise that samples sometimes dictate. One of the many reasons that my template is 100% Spitfire is that I'm finally managing to write without the usual limitations of samples. Of course, just like Bach had to keep knocking out those cantatas for the following Sunday and was aware of the limitations of the musicians he had access to, or Bernstein adapting his string parts for West Side Story based on the players he knew he had, I'm careful not to try something that I think might be totally beyond the patch's capabilities and at the same time try to write idiomatically for a virtual instrument in the same way I would for its live counterpart.

To finish, I've mentioned before the differences between programming legato for dry and wet libraries. I've done plenty of dry programming – in fact I did some tweaking on the very first LASS leg patches for Andrew – and hands down, ambient legato is the hardest to do. We love what we do at Spitfire and enjoy the challenge and something new is discovered that helps us to improve things with every AIR library we produce. We're committed to our updates – don't forget that we're working composers also relying on these tools – and we're really excited about future possibilities. 

Thanks,

Andy.


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## Resoded (Feb 28, 2015)

Andy: Would you mind sharing a screenshot of the cc1 and cc11 data for that little demo? Sounds excellent, just wondering if you're using it differently from the way I use it.


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## Andy B (Feb 28, 2015)

Resoded @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Andy: Would you mind sharing a screenshot of the cc1 and cc11 data for that little demo? Sounds excellent, just wondering if you're using it differently from the way I use it.



Thanks. I just loaded the patches, stuck the dynamics and vibrato to the top and played. The only slight change in dynamics happens at the end of the very first phrase which is simply a quick dip on the held note, then back to the top.

Thanks,

Andy.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 28, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Andy B could post a demo tomorrow of exquisite flowing Sable legato - it's just I can't do it, but I can with other libs.



Quite the prophet, ain't I?

Andy, that example does indeed sound exquisite. And it's not the experience I have when playing it - from this thread I'm not alone. How to explain it?

*Explanation A*. Patrick has raised the notion of writing to samples, which you have countered and I have to say I'm with you Andy. It seems highly unlikely to me that you picked ET cos it happened to be one of the only phrases that works.

*Explanation B*. Some of us are feckless edjits, and simply lousy at using legato samples. Could be - but those of us that this would apply to seem to have little problem with other libraries.

*Explanation C*. Those of us who have issues are using stereo mixes, which haven't had the love and attention that the main mics have. *At the moment, this is my most likely candidate* - I don't know if the others who have issues are on the mixes.

*Explanation D*. There's a lot of fiddly work after the playing to make it sound as good as Andy's example. I also think this is unlikely (though there's probably a little massaging here and there), because even with extensive tinkering I've been unable to make pretty basic stuff sound right.

*Explanation E*. Those of us with issues are using earlier patch versions, or the wrong patches. Might be some of this - I'm still on 1.1 as I found 1.22's stereo mix combination patches problematic on a first try - on balance despite the issues 1.22 might well still be better.

*Explanation F*. Our settings in Sable and / or playing technique which works in other libraries isn't making the most of the library. 

And combinations. Anyone else any ideas?

I should say that some people have contacted me by other means to say they've had exactly these issues too that some of us have described, but for other reasons don't want to post publicly. I don't think its JUST the case that one of two of us are hopeless in some way or just hold some kind of daft grudge. If we could work together to figure this out, I'd be utterly delighted. I hear that line and think "Wow, I WANT that". But I already have it - yet can't get it.


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## Resoded (Feb 28, 2015)

Andy B @ 28th February 2015 said:


> Resoded @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Andy: Would you mind sharing a screenshot of the cc1 and cc11 data for that little demo? Sounds excellent, just wondering if you're using it differently from the way I use it.
> ...



That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I never use the dynamics at full force like that.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 28, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Andy B could post a demo tomorrow of exquisite flowing Sable legato - it's just I can't do it, but I can with other libs.
> ...



*Explanation F (part 2)*. The workflow Andy described is not one I'm used to using. I normally ride the mod wheel and / or expression control while playing in a line. I generally don't 'trust' the VI to get it right, so I try to 'perform' it myself. (I guess this comes from my days of learning on EWQLSO).

I am going to give those Mural legatos another try by setting a fixed modwheel position and see how that goes. Maybe I have been too hard on the CC's in the past?

This is a useful thread, despite some of the heat, because ultimately we all just want to make the music in our heads with the best sounding VIs... at least that is my goal. I never post anything about Spitfire (particularly issues or challenges) for fear of backlash, so I appreciate Guy volunteering to be the lightning rod for the rest of us.


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## Stephen Baysted (Feb 28, 2015)

Can't believe I've just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading this thread. :roll: 

Some people seem to have far too much time in their hands ...


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## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Andy B could post a demo tomorrow of exquisite flowing Sable legato - it's just I can't do it, but I can with other libs.
> ...



Are you still using an older version as you stated above?

Have you actually loaded the patch as Andy described and tried to play it?

If we can find a resolution I'm sure it will also be useful to the many people contacting you who don't want to post for some reason. 

Please report back with your findings with the current version. 

All the best

Paul


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## Stiltzkin (Feb 28, 2015)

It might be interesting to hear what you're hearing when you try it. Why not post the result you get? Could be helpful!


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## jules (Feb 28, 2015)

Resoded @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Andy: Would you mind sharing a screenshot of the cc1 and cc11 data for that little demo? Sounds excellent, just wondering if you're using it differently from the way I use it.


Would you mind sharing the midi file for comparison purposes ? I pretty much gave up on spitfire's legato (albion 1,2,3, sable 1,3,4) because of inconsistences in sound and would really like to sort this out !
I'll mention i use only the main sable mics.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 28, 2015)

Synesthesia @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Are you still using an older version as you stated above?
> 
> Have you actually loaded the patch as Andy described and tried to play it?
> 
> ...



I'm using 1.1 in the template but have 1.22 available.

I should have some time tomorrow morning to go through this thoroughly. As jules just said, if Andy would be kind enough to upload the midi for the file we can be sure we're Granny Smiths Apples and Granny Smiths Apples. I'll try it in all the versions I have - I'm downloading the latest version of main mics as well, so I'll compare the stereo mix performance with the main mics.

Hopefully this whole process will indeed be beneficial to many of us. As you'll have seen from this thread, many have posted with similar issues. So thanks for your help!


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## JohnG (Feb 28, 2015)

Maybe I don't fully understand, Guy, but I am frankly amazed that you would kick off a thread like this without using the latest version of the software.

That seems both unhelpful to those considering the library and unfair to Spitfire.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

I agree with John here.
Only observations made with the latest version are relevant.

Andy, thanks for posting.
And this demo at the highest dynamic works.
But what about lines at m, or p?
Also, why double the line?

I am going to take the time to post a small example to demonstrate what I'm talking about in a while...

Thanks


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 28, 2015)

JohnG @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Maybe I don't fully understand, Guy, but I am frankly amazed that you would kick off a thread like this without using the latest version of the software.
> 
> That seems both unhelpful to those considering the library and unfair to Spitfire.



I did explain, at some length, WHY I am not on the latest version in the OP.


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## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> JohnG @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I don't fully understand, Guy, but I am frankly amazed that you would kick off a thread like this without using the latest version of the software.
> ...



Indeed, at some length. for those who find it all TL:DR, you want to use the Stereo mixes which have not yet been released in the updated version (we updated the Main Mics first).

But as you know that many tweaks and revisions / etc were made to the main mics in the latest version that you are choosing not to use, this all seems pretty perverse to me. 

Can you post a piece in which you decided *not* to use Sable as it was as you say too much work and in which you had to revert to LASS? It might shed some light at least for me on what in particular is not working for you, when I am finding the library incredibly easy to use on a daily basis. Maybe theres something I'm totally overlooking, I'm keen to know.

I should also say, Patrick, that it is of course very easy to make something sound bad when playing a VI of this complex nature, indeed I could post a ream of mp3s making every sample library commercially available sound bad. 

What might be helpful is more some 'in context' stuff that is not working, then with the line solo'd for clarity.

VIs need the same amount of learning as any musical tool, well maybe not the violin, but certainly you can't just open up, ignore all the controls, slap something out and expect it to sound musical. I'm sure this is blindingly obvious, but I feel I have to state it anyway.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

OK, here it is.
I made 3 versions of the ET line, included in this audio file:
test SF Sable legato

#1: SF Sable Main mikes, (C+T+A), the patch from the latest 1.2 version is the legato performance palette (vol1+3), settings: vibrato, speed, portamento and expression all the way up.
Like Andy, I didn't bother playing with CC1. I just set it @ 52 in the beginning, that's it.
Now, everybody should hear a bump on the 7th note (C5)
If you don't, I suggest you get your ears checked.
This is the kind of stuff that I am talking about. When very exposed, at times, Sable is not my go to library for legato. Period
Granted, this issue could probably go away in a future update, and I'd be thrilled by that!

#2: SF Sable Main mikes, (C+T+A), the patch from the latest 1.2 version is the legato performance palette (vol1+3), settings: vibrato at zero, speed, portamento and expression all the way up.
Same issue as #1

#3: LASS legato, playing the same MIDI file.
No bumps. Fluid. Last note should be faded down, but I didn't bother for this test.

So here you go. I realize that you stand by your (excellent) product, but I kinda resent the fact that I get called out for being full of S#^T, when in reality, the flaws lay in your product.

If you want to check the MIDI file out, it is attached here...


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## JohnG (Feb 28, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ 28th February 2015 said:


> JohnG @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I don't fully understand, Guy, but I am frankly amazed that you would kick off a thread like this without using the latest version of the software.
> ...



"at some length" certainly describes your interminable ruminations on this thread, Guy. 

I maintain my view. I think it is downright unfair and unhelpful to others.


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## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

Hi Patrick,

Which patch are you using for LASS? 

*Is there any reverb or other fx on any of the three tracks?*

(let me be specific: last time I used LASS about 2009 (?) it was a very dry sound.)

Can you also out put this at 127 MW so we can hear comparison of your rig to what Andy played out earlier?

Paul


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## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

In fact a screencast might be helpful as the inconsistent occasions sound like inappropriate triggering of the wrong type of transition.

Its like when VSL released the speed control all over again!

I guess this just confirms what I said earlier, that its possible to set things on every library so it doesn't sound quite right.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 28, 2015)

JohnG @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> "at some length" certainly describes your interminable ruminations on this thread, Guy.
> 
> I maintain my view. I think it is downright unfair and unhelpful to others.



[deleted initial response to avoid hypocrisy in staying constructive...]

I stated at the outset that I intended his to be fair and thoughtful. If that takes time to explain, then it takes time to explain. Most posts so far have been constructive and helpful, and there's a very useful ongoing discussion. I'll be adding to that tomorrow.

(good to see you here Blake, really appreciate your input).


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## Andy B (Feb 28, 2015)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> And this demo at the highest dynamic works.
> But what about lines at m, or p?
> Also, why double the line?



Well the violins are playing a soaring melody very near the top of their dynamics in the piece, so why would I post a demo at mf? The violins are also doubled at the octave which is also why I doubled the line - what other reason would I have to do it otherwise? 

Here's the single line played at the top dynamic:

[mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE%20ET%20Single%20Line%20FF.mp3[/mp3]

non-flash:

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE ET Single Line FF.mp3

Here's that same single line played at mf, CC1 – 52:

[mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE%20ET%20Single%20Line%20MF.mp3[/mp3]

non-flash:

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE ET Single Line MF.mp3

And finally at p:

[mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE%20ET%20Single%20Line%20P.mp3[/mp3]

non-flash:

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE ET Single Line P.mp3

I would have to say that you either have a corrupted or old patch, or you're doing something not quite right.

Thanks,

Andy.


----------



## Astronaut FX (Feb 28, 2015)

My overall experience with Spitfire has been mostly very good.

Their libraries sound like no others, and I find them gorgeous to play with, and they're incredibly inspiring. Their organic, sound great out of the box with minimal effort.

Early on, service was spot on. I remember having a few questions/issues with my earliest purchases. Within 24-hours Paul or Christian were right back with me with a solution.

Their product walkthroughs are terrific. You can easily tell what you're buying if you take the time to watch them.

The recent option to purchase products on drives is a great decision. I'm also quite happy to see their bundle pricing, along with the complete my bundle pricing.

Lately though, I've been a bit disappointed by a few factors.

I was an early adopter of HZ01...bought it the day it was released. We were told it was being rolled out in smaller chunks to facilitate downloads. Made sense. But it was a full year later before the final chunk (Junkie XL) was rolled out. That's far too long. I give them props for being on top of continuing to release maintenance updates and enhancements for their libraries regularly, but for an advertised component of a library to take a year is far, far too long.

Service requests now involve deep menu diving in their website before you can contact them. I've done so three times since October with the same question...crickets...nothing. I finally had my issue resolved by a forum member. I had somehow buggered up my HZ01 library and wanted to start from a full, fresh download. It wasn't until a forum member posted a thread stating Spitfire had updated their downloader to enable you to reload them yourself. Prior to this enhancement, you had to contact them. If you're going to make this kind of change, should you communicate that? (My apologies in advance if you did and I missed it, but I don't recall receiving an email about this.)

In the end, I think their success has started to eroded what made them special initially. They've outgrown their ability to provide the personalized level of service they once provided. They release new products at a banshee's pace, but sometimes take too long to deliver updates (sometimes core functionality) on the products they've already sold. I also think their rollout of their downloader could have been handled better, including a more clear announcement regarding added features.

More good than bad for certain, and the bad all seems like things that could be improved/resolved with little effort. I'm not certain it will though, because like most library developers, they are musicians/composers first, and often display some very thin skin when handling negativity. No, the customer isn't always right. But they always deserve empathy and respect. Too often library developers lash out instead of finding the opportunity in criticism. Spitfire is not alone in this, and not the worst either.


----------



## tokatila (Feb 28, 2015)

blakerobinson @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, here it is.
> ...



Check the tempo. BPM <= 140, smooth as butter, BPM > 140, bumpy bump. (With 1+3 performance patch,CTA mics and the newest version).

BUT, if you lengthen the sixth note, the bump goes away.

Ninjaedit - But not with all RRs.

Ninjaedit 2 - Turn off (Legato fast). Fingered legato is the smooth operator. 8)


----------



## tokatila (Feb 28, 2015)

blakerobinson @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> tokatila @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Check the tempo. BPM <= 140, smooth as butter, BPM > 140, bumpy bump. (With 1+3 performance patch,CTA mics and the newest version).
> ...



Check my ninjaedit 2. It's the Legato (fast) that gives that bump Patrick is talking about. Isn't that affected by BPM (one needs faster transition with faster BPM?)



> One thing that BPM can affect is the triggering of 'fast' or 'run' articulations. These are provided at default values that may not always work for every intended context, but can easily be turned off by holding *alt/option* and clicking the run/fast articulation icons on the stanza.



Aah. Didn't see your ninjaedit. It's precisely this at least with my rig. Fingered legato is smooth as butter. 8)


----------



## Andy B (Feb 28, 2015)

tokatila @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Check the tempo. BPM <= 140, smooth as butter, BPM > 140, bumpy bump.



I don't really understand the above either but just to be thorough, here's a slow followed by fast version:

[mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE%20ET%20Slow.mp3[/mp3]

non-flash:

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE ET Slow.mp3


[mp3]http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE%20ET%20Fast.mp3[/mp3]

non-flash:

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws.com/audio/SABLE ET Fast.mp3

Thanks,

Andy.


----------



## tokatila (Feb 28, 2015)

Andy B @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> tokatila @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Check the tempo. BPM <= 140, smooth as butter, BPM > 140, bumpy bump.
> ...



I doublechecked, and reason for that is that with that particular midifile tempos over 141 trigger Legato (fast), which gives that "bump". 

Here is the clip, first with 140 BPM, then 141 BPM. Nothing else is changed:

http://1drv.ms/1AV3cix

But as stated. that can be easily "fixed (if you don't like that "harder" attack) by forcing fingered legato with that particular transition.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

Synesthesia @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Hi Patrick,
> 
> Which patch are you using for LASS?
> 
> ...


Hi Paul,
yes, sorry there was reverb to the LASS patch. it is setup that way in my template and I didn't bother taking it out since this was about transitions...
This whole thing has already shot my day to some extent, so I will not post a dry LASS example...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

Synesthesia @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Hi Patrick,
> 
> Which patch are you using for LASS?
> 
> ...



Paul, I will not post more examples, since I would like to get back to work  , but I just tried and I get the same bump at 127...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

blakerobinson @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, here it is.
> ...



Hi Blake, 
yes, it is V1 from the latest 1.2 version, performance palette (vol 1 + 3), 
correct on the mikes setup
correct with the 51 dynamic setting

One note doesn't overlap, but even when set to overlap, the issue remains.
What would you recommend when in a phrase, you want one note to attack without the previous note to be connected? 
Switch to sustain?
That seems very un-practical and time consuming.
I usually will still use the same legato patch, as in my MIDI example...
never had an issue with that in the past...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

tokatila @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> blakerobinson @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> ...



Hi Tokatila, yes, I can report that the bump disappears when the tempo is lower than 140bpm!
And also that when taking out all legatos but the fingered one, the bump is gone.
So obviously, the script is the culprit here...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

blakerobinson @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> tokatila @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Check the tempo. BPM <= 140, smooth as butter, BPM > 140, bumpy bump. (With 1+3 performance patch,CTA mics and the newest version).
> ...



Blake, yes, I can confirm that the bump is gone when only using the fingered legato.
But I can also confirm that the bump disappears with the all legato setup when the tempo is slowed. Like you said I can clearly see that the intelligent legato is switching to different types when the tempo is faster, while it will remain on fingered when slower.
The reason why I am using the combination legato palette, is that it is attractive to be able to switch automatically to portamento, or fast, without loading several different patches, which LASS allows (for portamento) flawlessly.
At this point though, it looks like this combination script is not quite performing the way it could at higher bpm speeds...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

blakerobinson @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > One note doesn't overlap, but even when set to overlap, the issue remains.
> ...



It was a demonstration of the legato and ONE note was not connected, at a spot where one could possibly conceive a small pause. The rest was all legato, and this didn't affect the production of the bump.

I think that we now all understand what is causing that bump...

Thanks


----------



## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Hi Blake,
> 
> 
> One note doesn't overlap, but even when set to overlap, the issue remains.
> ...



Hi Patrick..

No, you just don't connect the note, and you'll get a non legato note.

The bump, as has been pointed out above, is because (I presume) you are allowing the fast/runs arts to trigger. if you don't want them to trigger, change the threshold or just disable them.

Forgive me.. but all this is in the manual and you seem very keen to leap to the conclusion that there are errors in the programming, or faults in the way the lib is designed to be used .. eg: "seems very un-practical and time consuming"

Maybe worth either reading the manual or watching the various walkthrus that came with the new programming, the updates etc...

Andy, Blake and myself have also had a frustrating Saturday having to refute some incorrect statements and demonstrate that the library does work in response to stuff posted up to make it appear not to work.

Most of our users don't post on or read forums, many don't look at twitter or facebook, so to a certain extent this is a bit of a pointless exercise but its pretty frustrating reading stuff you know to be incorrect and difficult to just ignore it.

If any of you guys n gals reading this are having problems with Sable, please watch the various youtube demos and tutorials, please contact us via the forum

http://www.spitfireaudio.com/bb/

or failing that email support. The forum may be the quickest way to get a response.

We have to keep changing the official email for support due to massive attacks by spam bots. I have said this again and again, but some people are still just emailing the old support address. Its frustrating also, but out of our control. We simply cannot get those emails. Due to circs outside our control. Thats why you now have to go through the website process to get to the support form -- partly so we can change it as necessary when the spam overwhelms again, and partly to encourage people with quick and easy fix problems to check out our support forum THE KNOWLEDGE.

Thanks,

Paul[/url]


----------



## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> So obviously, the script is the culprit here...



Er...

Or rather 

"So obviously, user error is the culprit here..."

got that fix for you.

:D


----------



## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Blake, yes, I can confirm that the bump is gone when only using the fingered legato.
> But I can also confirm that the bump disappears with the all legato setup when the tempo is slowed. Like you said I can clearly see that the intelligent legato is switching to different types when the tempo is faster, while it will remain on fingered when slower.
> The reason why I am using the combination legato palette, is that it is attractive to be able to switch automatically to portamento, or fast, without loading several different patches, which LASS allows (for portamento) flawlessly.
> *At this point though, it looks like this combination script is not quite performing the way it could at higher bpm speeds*...



No, not at all.

Simply turn off the transitions you don't want to use.

You don't need to load several patches. Its all there in one patch. you can change the logic to switch to and from every transition to be exactly the way you want. Its massively flexible, I'd love to see anything to match it in fact.

However flawless LASS is, is kind of irrelevant.

As you clearly have a massive bee in your bonnet and are ignoring all the info we are giving you and presenting the situation in an entirely false light, I feel my continued participation in this thread is pointless.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

Hi Paul,

I do watch every single tutorial that you guys put out, thanks for them!

We are not going to argue all day about who's right or wrong at this point.
I am not here to give you a bad name.
But when you create an intelligent script that is advertised as automatically switching legato styles for you, I bet most of your users load the patch and play away.
If they experience issues because the patch generates bumps while switching articulations, it may be a bit disingenuous to say the user is the one screwing up.
I have watched the tutorial only once, but I don't recall you telling us that above a certain speed we'll hear bumps in levels and that we should turn off the fast legato...
I know it now, and I'm glad for this thread, because I bet it helped a bunch of users that were "doing it wrong".
And here is hoping that a future update will take care of that issue...

I also hope that you won't mind if I post an example here when I run into my next big issue, which is a bump when sometimes going from legato to one connected short (I think that issue was with the reeds...)
You'll probably demonstrate that I am doing it wrong again, but it may also help clarifying things out...

Cheers


----------



## Stiltzkin (Feb 28, 2015)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> I do watch every single tutorial that you guys put out, thanks for them!
> 
> ...



It might be worth contacting their support directly, since this sounds more like an issue for their support rather than them. But I guess sharing is caring


----------



## Synesthesia (Feb 28, 2015)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> I do watch every single tutorial that you guys put out, thanks for them!
> 
> ...



Hi Patrick,

I'm glad you have found the youtubes useful.

At the risk of thrashing the pulp of this dead horse, there won't be a future update to take care of this issue, as there is no issue, its entirely expected and wanted behaviour.

When you play above the speed threshold, if the fast legato / runs legato arts are engaged, you will switch to specially recorded transitions that make great sounding fast/runs passages.

The switch occurs visibly as well for added confirmation.

Over and out.

Paul


----------



## mk282 (Feb 28, 2015)

The script is doing nothing wrong. It's switching the legato type depending on which velocity you play. So, be careful at which velocity you play the notes and it will all be fine. You can even change how you want to switch the legato types (by Ctrl+clicking the articulation button on the stanza, then clicking Reset and choosing the method, then setting it up), so there's really no excuse for the library not to work according to any workflow you might want to use. 

Sorry Patrick but Paul is absolutely correct here. There's no issue here. Just (apparent) lack of understanding of the functionality offered.


----------



## Stiltzkin (Feb 28, 2015)

Also I believe if you didn't want to disable the mic you can actually manually insert keyswitches in the middle of lines to FORCE a specific transition for the next legato, just like berlin strings does. So if you're playing a fast line/passage but want a specific legato, you can input the keyswitch for it when you need it, it will play that keyswitch and then the script takes care of everything else again after that note.

This WAS covered in the walkthrough videos ^^


----------



## mk282 (Feb 28, 2015)

Good point, Stiltzkin.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

I have no problem with admitting that I was not aware of the full functionality guys, so I stand corrected.
Mk282, when you talk about velocities, you talk about velocity, not speed at which the notes are played, correct?
Thanks!


----------



## mk282 (Feb 28, 2015)

Correct - I forgot that in Sable there are additional legato types (fast/run, etc.) that activate depending on speed of playing. I'm actually using Mural more than Sable, and Mural doesn't have those extra legato types that are speed-enabled, just the velocity switching ones (porta/fingered/bowed). My mixup - apologies. 

So what you can do here is massage the speed settings of the fast/run legato types to match the composition you're working on. I don't think that one setting is supposed to be the end all be all for each and every project you migh work on - so it's good to know everything is adjustable!


----------



## Dryden.Chambers (Feb 28, 2015)

I email: <[email protected]>
And get prompt & courteous replies from my endless (minus weekend and holidays understandably) questions.

So is there a impression that if Christian & Paul are busy composers and do not answer questions now or are not accessible that this is bad ?

Is there a stigma on this board that the more libraries that come out, the one you have bought are neglected in some way even though Spitfire has different teams working on them? Or that if a non orchestra library comes out as opposed to a orchestral one the same ?

:roll: 




Tone Deaf @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Service requests now involve deep menu diving in their website before you can contact them. I've done so three times since October with the same question...crickets...nothing. I finally had my issue resolved by a forum member. I had somehow buggered up my HZ01 library and wanted to start from a full, fresh download. It wasn't until a forum member posted a thread stating Spitfire had updated their downloader to enable you to reload them yourself. Prior to this enhancement, you had to contact them. If you're going to make this kind of change, should you communicate that? (My apologies in advance if you did and I missed it, but I don't recall receiving an email about this.)
> 
> In the end, I think their success has started to eroded what made them special initially. They've outgrown their ability to provide the personalized level of service they once provided. They release new products at a banshee's pace, but sometimes take too long to deliver updates (sometimes core functionality) on the products they've already sold. I also think their rollout of their downloader could have been handled better, including a more clear announcement regarding added features.
> 
> More good than bad for certain, and the bad all seems like things that could be improved/resolved with little effort. I'm not certain it will though, because like most library developers, they are musicians/composers first, and often display some very thin skin when handling negativity. No, the customer isn't always right. But they always deserve empathy and respect. Too often library developers lash out instead of finding the opportunity in criticism. Spitfire is not alone in this, and not the worst either.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

I certainly appreciate all the options in one patch.
Not the most intuitive, but I'd rather have it that way.

I use the UACC for switching articulations and the best method I can think of is to either disable the fast arts at the beginning of a project if it is clear that they won't be needed, or force a certain articulation type by inputting the correct UACC just before the note...

I'd much rather be proven wrong and have a good product than the opposite, so apologies if I pissed people off.
No regrets though, since it clarified a few things, and I can stay with Sable when the piece calls for it.


----------



## David Gosnell (Feb 28, 2015)

Dryden.Chambers @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> I email: <[email protected]>
> And get prompt & courteous replies from my endless (minus weekend and holidays understandably) questions.
> 
> So is there a impression that if Christian & Paul are busy composers and do not answer questions now or are not accessible that this is bad ?
> ...



Whoever runs a business, be they a busy composer, Donald Trump or an Aardvark named Susan - a business is a business. Customers don't get retrospective discounts because business owners land distracting gigs - therefore they don't care. Each business is judged by customer value for money criteria, which in turn are based on expectations grounded in the performance of their competitors.

If you employed a customer service person who told customers (no matter how full of shit they were) that they were talking bollocks then you would fire them - because they are paid to manage customer negativity without getting sucked in to arguments. That degree of professionalism is expected by customers because that is how the majority of vendors who accept their money treat them (and I'm talking more broadly than than sample libraries - all our life experiences of customer service).

Having said that, anyone who sets up their own successful business has every right to run it however they wish, because any act they take is at their own risk.

Having said that also, a sensible set of rules of thumb in ensuring both a successful business and a reduction in your own stress levels would include:

Never address a customer or potential customer disrespectfully - especially not in public. It is far more likely to hurt your sales rather than help them. If you can't stick with that, hire someone to do it for you who can.

Any customer who thinks your product is crap because they don't know how to use it will convince others it is crap. If they do this, you lose - they don't. You therefore need to ensure you put every effort into educating your customers, because it is in your best interests. In the case of SF, they can probably find many users who will happily do this for them. Every time a customer says your product is crap because they don't use it right, politely point them to the relevant training aid. If it doesn't exist, create it, if they still don't understand it, rewrite it. In addition to winning you advocates and reducing your haters, it also saves a shitload of time in customer support in the long run.

These tools are boring and time consuming to prepare, but the dev will reap the benefits in the long run.

If you are changing how things work in a way that will cause customers to have to change what they do, give them plenty of warning - SF do have a habit of moving keyswitches around or as mentioned before, changing the downloading procedure without any communication at all. No-one likes being dropped in the shit just before a deadline. A clear warning before installing updates is all it takes to avoid this.

Prior to turning pro 5 years ago, I worked in marketing for 20 years and offer this advice to all devs with the best of intentions, I want my working life to get easier and I'd like SF and all my favourite devs to achieve well deserved success. The minute you start charging money, the minute you stop being cut any slack - it's not personal, it's just business :roll:


----------



## Arbee (Feb 28, 2015)

I've been reading this post with interest and, somewhat sadly, I suggest it best to let everyone continue to believe what they want to believe (or what they're told to believe). 

Patrick, for my money and to my ears, your LASS example blew every other example in this thread out of the water (and I don't own any of these products, so have no dog in this fight whatsoever).

.


----------



## prodigalson (Feb 28, 2015)

> Patrick, for my money and to my ears, your LASS example blew every other example in this thread out of the water (and I don't own any of these products, so have no dog in this fight whatsoever).



Well, to be COMPLETELY fair, I don't think LASS is an appropriate library to compare to Sable anyway. It's been mentioned so many times how much more difficult it is to program legato in a library as wet as Spitfire's AIR products than it is with a library as dry as LASS. 

So, the fact that they can get a comparable result (albeit with perhaps a LITTLE extra tweaking) should be a +1 in their corner. In my mind, the sound of AIR and spitfire's recording philosophy is part of why we love them, so perhaps the LITTLE extra tweaking is worth it. 

This is FUN right?? Next Saturday let's go after CineSamples and pick apart every little minor detail of CineBrass. We can call it 'Developer Hunting Saturday'. o[])


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2015)

My feeling as well Arbee.
There are many great thing about the SF instruments, but the legato is not one of them in my book. But then, that's what you get for having a beautiful hall as compensation...

As far as getting insulted in a public forum, I can take it.
Besides, a bee under the bonnet is pretty cute.
It's not the first time, Paul reacts this way when I dare criticize some aspects of their libraries (and some of those issues cannot be brushed off the way he did here)

That being said, these guys could learn a thing or two from Eric Persing, and the way he deals with customers. 
Not to mention the fact that I have spent at least 5Ks on SF products.
But I'll continue using the libraries that I invested in no matter what, so it's water under the bridge here... =o


----------



## Arbee (Feb 28, 2015)

prodigalson @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Well, to be COMPLETELY fair, I don't think LASS is an appropriate library to compare to Sable anyway. It's been mentioned so many times how much more difficult it is to program legato in a library as wet as Spitfire's AIR products than it is with a library as dry as LASS.
> 
> So, the fact that they can get a comparable result (albeit with perhaps a LITTLE extra tweaking) should be a +1 in their corner.


In regard to wet v dry and legato you're spot on, and I see no unfairness in the comparison whatsoever in a legato conversation. 

There is a fine line between "correcting truly erroneous customer perception" and feeling the need to discredit any and all critics, a fine line indeed.

.


----------



## 5Lives (Feb 28, 2015)

I have to agree the LASS example sounds the best to my ears as well. Upon hearing it, I got curious - while I have LASS, I only have the Albions from Spitfire, but they include a true legato patch. Just for "real-time playing" comparison, I played a short line and played the MIDI through both - not tweaking whatsoever. The results are here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d0cc1i3hetbob ... 2.mp3?dl=0

From my perspective, there must be a balance between playability and tweakability - depending on how you work, that balance can shift. I tend to prefer playability a bit more (just seems more fun then).


----------



## JohnG (Feb 28, 2015)

Frankly, I am disgusted by this thread and feel Spitfire are owed an apology.

To me, the unfairness of this thread involves:

1. The title is unfair. It is not really a thread that in general is "about Spitfire." It is, instead, like many such threads, largely a complaint receptacle with very long posts full of negatives and half-knowledge.

2. Not using the latest version of the software, in Guy's case, is unfair.

3. It is spectacularly misleading and unfair of Patrick to use the same midi file for LASS and Spitfire and suggest this proves a problem with Spitfire. Sorry, but -- are you kidding me? -- you cannot use the same midi file that works on LASS with any other string library I own. I like LASS fine but it uses cc1 differently, making the same midi file irrelevant with other libraries.

4. It is unfair and actually insulting to say that Andy B was somehow using a trick or subterfuge or some kind of "writing for the samples" sleight of hand in providing demos. 

5. Much of the thread smacks of a nasty, "prove it to me, pal" tone that I think is not a gracious or even civil way to engage with fellow musicians, no matter how much money we've spent on their products.

And now at the end of the thread, I read finger-wagging scolds about how business is a dog-eat-dog world and you'd better shape up and simply take whatever one or two customers dish out. What???

This is awful in at least two ways. For one thing, there is nothing much "normal" about sample libraries. Spitfire are not making rivets, or even "regular" software. It's boutique product for a narrow market. If we all had any sense we'd get finance degrees and work shorter hours in a sane business; thank goodness the Spitfire guys (like East West, Audiobro, 8dio, Cinesamples etc.) don't have that kind of sense. They, like their competitors. have very obviously poured their hearts into this and frankly deserve a little consideration and a collegial approach.

Second, in adopting this intensely skeptical, even insinuating tone, we are showing extremely bad manners. I have seen similar scorn leveled at East West over and over again until their guys simply left. Is that what v.i. control wants? Do you want Paul and Christian and Andy B. and Blake to leave?

I don't.


----------



## Arbee (Feb 28, 2015)

JohnG @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Frankly, I am disgusted by this thread and feel Spitfire are owed an apology.


Noted, but I disagree. There has been some useful information in this thread, and everyone has been able to express their point of view. Most, even the critics, appear to have been courteous enough to acknowledge what a great sound Spitfire libraries produce, even if they disagree on some of the finer points.

.


----------



## rgames (Feb 28, 2015)

Let's change the thread title to more accurately reflect what it is:

Clickbait.


----------



## David Gosnell (Feb 28, 2015)

JohnG @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> And now at the end of the thread, I read finger-wagging scolds about how business is a dog-eat-dog world and you'd better shape up and simply take whatever one or two customers dish out. What???
> .



It wasn't my intention to patronise or finger wag, I am trying to offer free advice that I used to charge for. Most management consultants would share that companies with issues that need solving say that the rules of good practice don't apply to them, because their market is different. Widgets or Wagner Tubas, once you start asking strangers for money for a product there are proven guidelines as to how to successfully manage your customers.

I love Spitfire products, I use them every day and I'm pretty sure the only issues I have with them I have mentioned in this thread. I think when a dev has worked with a product for months it is difficult for them to understand how many tips and tricks they have picked up along the way and now take as naturally instinctive. I just don't think vendors should underestimate the challenge faced by a new user who has a walk through and a very brief manual to go on. The better you educate your customers the more they become your advocates, the better you communicate with your customers, the more they lead social media opinion to your benefit.

I don't think this market is dog eat dog, it is remarkably friendly - but every time a customer disses your product you have an opportunity to win friends or lose them, because happy customers tend to keep quiet and unhappy customers tell everybody. Getting angry and telling paying customers they're wrong is never the right choice - no matter how vindicated it makes you feel.

I apologise to Paul and Christian if I have caused them any offence or made them feel patronised. My intention is only to help them and any other devs to take a step back and avoid arriving where another dev you mention has, where every related discussion brings up an army of volunteers to tell all reading not to buy their products. 

And to believe social media is not a key source of influence in the purchase of sample libraries - well, why does vi-c manage to get advertisers?


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## prodigalson (Feb 28, 2015)

I disagree with regard to the fairness of the sable/lass comparison. It's not apples and apples, imo and whether or not were just considering legato programming is irrelevant. 
It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

LASS has 46 players compared to sables 16 and, I'm sorry but that HAS to make a difference in regards to programming a polished legato. 16 violins vs. 4! Add to that the dramatic difference in ambience and you've got a huge challenge, one that IMO SF has more than risen to. 

Also, in these comparisons, LASS has a significant amount of reverb and. Sable seemed, to me, to be vastly more exposed. I don't think this is irrelevant to the discussion of perception of lefato smoothness. 

This is not to diminish LASS and its technical achievement. I love LASS but I think, on balance, Sable stands up to it equally. Both are advanced, pro level libraries that both require tweaking in their own ways but the direct comparison is unfair. 

And one more thought, it seems to me sables appeal is its sound and that sound is vastly different to LASS and its aim is to do something very niche and specific. If you're using sable and just jump straight to LASS right away in frustration then maybe you should be using LASS in the first place. 

Just my two cents...


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## prodigalson (Feb 28, 2015)

Also. Im with JohnG on this one. 

The attacks on spitfire and their response to this thread are completely out of line. 

A thread was started that was intended to air any opinions about their products but the OP was essentially a list of complaints. With respect to Guy, who was obviously well intentioned, the results of the OP, in my opinion were inevitable. 

They were invited to participate in this discussion and you can't get indignant and act like a martyr when you level a criticism against their work that they feel is misleading and they argue with you and attempt to prove you wrong. Any one of us would d the exact same thing.


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## todo10 (Feb 28, 2015)

I agree with John wholeheartedly. I don't understand the attack here in the least.

Locking the thread. its click bait for sure. It seems completely unfair to the developer on so many levels. I will end with John's reasons which essentially speak for the moderation team:



> *Frankly, I am disgusted by this thread and feel Spitfire are owed an apology.
> 
> To me, the unfairness of this thread involves:
> 
> ...



Lastly, Guy, why are you focused on pointing out a library's flaws _when you didn't even bother to get the latest version? That is super troubling._ And Patrick, you of all people know that _you cannot use the same midi file on different libraries - its simply not a fair test and is in no way an indication that there is a defect - just different behaviors._ (VI-PRO didn't act like commercial libraries either but still rocked.) I'm concerned also about the attack on Andy B - as if he was only writing for samples rather than writing for writing's sake - was a bit over the top to be direct. Andy B has very few peers that can do his work as well as he does. 

*Thread locked.*

This isn't over. This kind of thread is toxic and I've seen enough. I'm not going to let it go. Is there something I'm missing here? Why the axe grind with Spitfire, Guy? PM please.


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