# Common composer agent commission rates?



## re201spaceecho (Aug 25, 2020)

Hey guys! I've been offered an agent's services in exchange for 15% front and back end. Is it normal for them to ask for back end? Thankfully it does not cover any projects I source and negotiate myself, but on a bigger project, these commissions sure add up. Although, I won't be sourcing many big projects myself... Thanks for any input!


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## chillbot (Aug 25, 2020)

Wow, so they want to be listed on the cue sheet? For future stuff going forward? Or would they want a cut of your royalty checks? And how would you know how to calculate that, differentiating royalties from pre-agent projects?

I have never had an agent so I can't definitively say, but I have not ever heard of an agent taking back end. I'm sure it's been done, I'm just not aware of it. And I would never personally consider giving it to one.


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## re201spaceecho (Aug 25, 2020)

That is unclear so far! They’ve been clear that it would apply only to projects that they bring, or I bring to them, specifically (ie not touching my existing relationships, or any project I source and negotiate myself). I think right off the bat I would try to avoid any back end commission... but I am curious with what others experience.


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## chillbot (Aug 25, 2020)

re201spaceecho said:


> They’ve been clear that it would apply only to projects that they bring, or I bring to them, specifically


I always thought it was not the agent's job to bring projects to the client, at least that's what we are told in LA. That would be more of a manager's job. If the agent is actively bringing you projects, and you are in need of projects, maybe it is worth it, I dunno. That is a big difference. The old math, 85% of something is better than 100% of nothing. I would also be interested in other people's experiences.


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## re201spaceecho (Aug 25, 2020)

Perhaps it’s a bit of a hybrid of management and agent, now that you mention it. The trouble is, these guys seem great but are just starting their agency after many years of running a library. So I can look to that track record but I can’t actually call up anyone on the “roster” since I would be among the first involved... but regardless, I think I will see if they respond well to 10-15% on the up front fees only.


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## JonS (Aug 25, 2020)

re201spaceecho said:


> Hey guys! I've been offered an agent's services in exchange for 15% front and back end. Is it normal for them to ask for back end? Thankfully it does not cover any projects I source and negotiate myself, but on a bigger project, these commissions sure add up. Although, I won't be sourcing many big projects myself... Thanks for any input!


Agents in California are not allowed more than 10% by law, managers can charge anything they want though they usually take between 10-15%, some will want 20%. Never give your agent or manager or rep any part of your royalties including PRO monies. However, if they can get you part of the backend of a video game or film in the form of a bonus based on sales or box office numbers or part of the adjusted gross (or net) then yes they do get that part of backend, though this usually only happens if you are working on an independent film as very few of the biggest composers actually get a percent of the gross from a movie ie. John Williams.

Realize that when it comes to collecting PRO and SoundExchange royalties these reps do actually nothing to negotiate or retrieve those royalties for the composer so they don't deserve part of a transaction that they did not negotiate nor have anything to do with the collection of those royalties.

Also, never sign anything that gives them 10-15% in perpetuity for potential future work of yours that they never negotiated for. If you one day leave that agent make sure they only get their cut on the projects they were repping you for, some managers want to own a piece of you forever, which is slimy, even if you don't want them to rep you anymore one day. Make sure they only get paid on the projects that they were actively repping you for. You can also include a Sunset Clause if they stop representing you so that any monies due to them get reduced by an agreed to percentage until a few years go by then they get nothing.

Some managers don't require you to sign a contract and will simply rep you on a verbal basis, in this case make sure you have an email trail laying out the basic terms of the representation ie. 10%, 15%, no royalty participation, etc...

For composers that don't have any representation and you are being hired for legit projects get an entertainment attorney to negotiate your deal, even if its just a one-off, since they will do a significant better job for you. An entertainment attorney usually wants 5% of the deal they negotiate (no royalties included) but if you have no other agent or manager as part of your team then they may occasionally want 10%, this is fine.


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## JohnG (Aug 25, 2020)

Sounds terrible. "back end?" What is he talking about?

Agents charge 10% typically of the up-front fee/package. Managers, 15%. Sometimes you can discuss whether that's on the whole package or just some agreed-upon amount (in other words, if you're paying for the players, he doesn't necessarily get a full commission on that).

Agents also often will ask for a commission on any publishing royalties you get. Why? Because you don't usually get them unless your agent negotiates it.

But "back end" sounds like he wants to be listed as a co-writer. Forget it.


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## gsilbers (Aug 25, 2020)

i think 10% of the front end is the norm? 
i couldbe wrong though
but it seems it would be the best choice so they can negotiate better front end. 
but if its back end then it would help them also negotiate that way. 
but if you are doing it to find gigs then whatever works. 15% of a network primetime show is better than 5% 
season 14 of random reality tv show on deep cable.


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## re201spaceecho (Aug 25, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Sounds terrible. "back end?" What is he talking about?
> 
> Agents charge 10% typically of the up-front fee/package. Managers, 15%. Sometimes you can discuss whether that's on the whole package or just some agreed-upon amount (in other words, if you're paying for the players, he doesn't necessarily get a full commission on that).
> 
> ...



Thanks for this, that helps me a ton - they didn’t mention exactly what they meant by back end. I think publishing would make more sense, it would be super extreme to list him as a writer.


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## re201spaceecho (Aug 25, 2020)

JonS said:


> Agents in California are not allowed more than 10% by law, managers can charge anything they want though they usually take between 10-15%, some will want 20%. Never give your agent or manager or rep any part of your royalties including PRO monies. However, if they can get you part of the backend of a video game or film in the form of a bonus based on sales or box office numbers or part of the adjusted gross (or net) then yes they do get that part of backend, though this usually only happens if you are working on an independent film as very few of the biggest composers actually get a percent of the gross from a movie ie. John Williams.
> 
> Realize that when it comes to collecting PRO and SoundExchange royalties these reps do actually nothing to negotiate or retrieve those royalties for the composer so they don't deserve part of a transaction that they did not negotiate nor have anything to do with the collection of those royalties.
> 
> ...



This is an amazing reply, thanks! That’s a lot to think about. I’m entering a slow period (like most of us I imagine), so the idea of a bigger gig coming is tempting, because I haven’t been successful in finding them myself in my small home market. Small network stuff sure, but I am aspiring for projects that allow me to step up my living situation and give me a bit of a cushion going forward. So if I were to sign away for a trial period with them, with all of these protections in mind, maybe that would be okay. ( of course, after clarifying everything is legit with my entertainment attorney) Again, thank you so much!


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## re201spaceecho (Aug 26, 2020)

Thanks everybody for your insights. I think at this point I'm going to come back to the agent with a lower offer of 10% on the creative fees and 0 on the publishing royalties. If the bigger players are charging less and staying away from royalties, I can't really justify that even if I'm occasionally "championed" as they say. Really appreciate everyone's opinions, if anyone else wants to chime in with any more thoughts, feel free - I know this is something that is tough to research, hopefully this thread shows up for someone on the same search as me!


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## Daryl (Aug 26, 2020)

You may not have any say on Publishing anyway, of you are writing for film. You get your Writer's share (the agent can' have any of that) and the Publisher will likely be a sister company of the film company. Nothing else left for your agent to have.


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## ltmusic (Aug 26, 2020)

Can someone define the role of an agent and a manager?


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## JohnG (Aug 26, 2020)

I'm not so sure your counteroffer actually makes business sense, if you think you are going to work with a network or a film studio. Even the small ones want all the publishing, so if you get any from them, it's probably your agent's doing and that probably deserves to be commissioned.

However, I can't tell if you are just starting out. If that's the case, the fees are usually so terrible that you can sometimes keep full ownership of the copyright and enter into only a "sync license" with the production company, that allows the company to use the music in perpetuity with the film, its advertising and any sequel/prequel.

That may sound like a lot to give up but at least you can still place your tracks with a music library and make some license fees.

Sometimes the production company may want a multi-year holdback -- two, five.

If you _are_ just starting out, I am wondering what interest any agent has in you other than someone trying to pick your pocket.

Or maybe you have a concert career -- not trying to bash or question you, just that most "real" agents want to see some solid relationships with known networks / directors / producers.


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## JohnG (Aug 26, 2020)

ltmusic said:


> Can someone define the role of an agent and a manager?



5%


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I'm not so sure your counteroffer actually makes business sense, if you think you are going to work with a network or a film studio. Even the small ones want all the publishing, so if you get any from them, it's probably your agent's doing and that probably deserves to be commissioned.
> 
> However, I can't tell if you are just starting out. If that's the case, the fees are usually so terrible that you can sometimes keep full ownership of the copyright and enter into only a "sync license" with the production company, that allows the company to use the music in perpetuity with the film, its advertising and any sequel/prequel.
> 
> ...


I keep writing a post and then deleting it because you are so spot on that I have nothing to add.


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## re201spaceecho (Aug 26, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I'm not so sure your counteroffer actually makes business sense, if you think you are going to work with a network or a film studio. Even the small ones want all the publishing, so if you get any from them, it's probably your agent's doing and that probably deserves to be commissioned.
> 
> However, I can't tell if you are just starting out. If that's the case, the fees are usually so terrible that you can sometimes keep full ownership of the copyright and enter into only a "sync license" with the production company, that allows the company to use the music in perpetuity with the film, its advertising and any sequel/prequel.
> 
> ...


No worries! I’m probably in between starting out and established - about 100 eps of TV, a few features. So I can agree with the idea of asking for a commission on the publishing, if it’s negotiated by the agent. That said 15% is still probably too high in my opinion. But who knows, like one commenter said, 85% of something is better than 100% of nothing, and right now, unfortunately I’m looking at a few more months of nothing.

to add: I have actually successfully secured publishing on all of my work so far which I understand is no small feat. I actually did most of my work on a non exclusive license, my creative fees were very low but the payoff has been mostly quite good - albeit it took about 4 years to feel comfortable. Right now my goal is to land a bigger job to fund a small mortgage, and when the world heals a bit, some travel.


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## JohnG (Aug 26, 2020)

You're badmouthing a lot of people, Stephen. My agent is superb. He's intelligent, hard working, honest, and an excellent fellow. And gets me lots of work.

[edit: looking at Stephen's other posts, I think he was trying to be funny. Still, my agent is a great guy.]

@re201spaceecho Forever I've heard that "85% of something..." argument. It's baloney. If someone is going to charge a 50% markup (15 vs 10) for his services, he has to do something 50% better. Like fill other roles -- maybe he's a good publicist, maybe he's an awesome producer who will punch up your tracks? Maybe he can get Sony Recording Artists to play on your next track? IDK but it has to be something.

Also, I don't think "managers" are constrained by the same conflict of interest rules that agents are. Agents at least are required to disclose those, I hear.

Look, it's like getting married. There's a certain amount of trust / rolling the dice. Do a little homework with existing clients and see if he's any good. And by "good," I mean, "brought me a job I didn't even know about," and / or "significantly improved the terms under which I work."

Separately, I would like to learn how to use the Roland Space Echo. As soon as I get a cool sound, it feeds back.


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## re201spaceecho (Aug 26, 2020)

JohnG said:


> You're badmouthing a lot of people, Stephen. My agent is superb. He's intelligent, hard working, honest, and an excellent fellow. And gets me lots of work.
> 
> @re201spaceecho Forever I've heard that "85% of something..." argument. It's baloney. If someone is going to charge a 50% markup (15 vs 10) for his services, he has to do something 50% better. Like fill other roles -- maybe he's a good publicist, maybe he's an awesome producer who will punch up your tracks? Maybe he can get Sony Recording Artists to play on your next track? IDK but it has to be something.
> 
> ...



Definitely, those are good points. Luckily we’ve agreed that whatever our deal ends up being, we will start with a trial period and see how it works.

As for Space Echos - it’s important these days to stay home, wash your hands, and self-oscillate


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## vgamer1982 (Sep 3, 2020)

Run.


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## vgamer1982 (Sep 3, 2020)

BTW, run DOUBLY fast if you google some of the contract language and can find almost that exact contract online.

$10 says you can. Just a hunch.


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## vgamer1982 (Sep 3, 2020)

I've seen a few shady managers out there try and sign composers and do it with literally downloaded off the internet contracts, and that's where this sort of crappy contract language comes from.

It'll often include a period of time - 3 years would be my hunch - that you're stuck with them, whereas a normal agent you can fire any time you like and you're not on the hook for anything you negotiate after.


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## vgamer1982 (Sep 3, 2020)

Also, I bet you anything the contract language regarding front/back end on contracts you negotiate yourself is vague, so it's "kinda" like they actually do have the rights to it but have said "yeah I won't go after things you get yourself"....but legally they actually kind of could.

In which case, if you try and get out of it down the line they'll try and enforce it to everything because of the vague language.


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