# Altiverb vs Space Designer



## gsilbers (Mar 22, 2009)

I am seeing a lot of talk of Todd AO IR on altiverb but i was wondering; if there was the same IR for logic's Space designer or if you compare 2 "meduim halls" for both verbs, how much better is altiverb? 
i am assuming its better cause for the price of altiverb you can get all of logic pro 8.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 22, 2009)

I have talked to the guys from Audioease and there is really no option to get hold of the Todd-AO IRs without purchasing Altiverb (I tried to make a deal and offered to pay for them).

So, to evaluate these IRs and to compare them with others, you should try to find a friend with Altiverb and make comparisons of the Todd-AO IRs with other IRs.

I will try to do this when I meet Maarten Spruijt next time (I want to know which of my own IRs are close to the Todd-AO ones).


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 23, 2009)

I think the biggest question is not whether Space Designer can match the reverb tails of Altiverb (as I bet it can) but rather can you achieve the same "early reflections."

From what I have read, people are using 3 altiverbs early reflections ONLY (no tails) to place dry samples in a room & help achieve depth. This is where Altiverb seems to shine, as they have taken inpulses of single rooms from multiple positions. So you can run your strings through the "close" mics, winds/brass through the mid, and perc through the "far." From there they use a single altiverb "tail" at the end of the chain for the actual hall sound. 

As someone who doesn't own altiverb, I'm very interested if this same technique can somehow be achieved using Logics revebs (silver verb for the early reflections, space designer for the tail, etc.) but I doubt this will work. I've always kept an eye on these type of threads with great interest, but have yet to hear any success stories using Space Designer instead of Altiverb.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 23, 2009)

[quote:c6d9b30d09="JT3_Jon @ Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:31 pm"]I think the biggest question is not whether Space Designer can match the reverb tails of Altiverb (as I bet it can) but rather can you achieve the same "early reflections."

From what I have read, people are using 3 altiverbs early reflections ONLY (no tails) to place dry samples in a room & help achieve depth. This is where Altiverb seems to shine, as they have taken inpulses of single rooms from multiple positions. So you can run your strings through the "close" mics, winds/brass through the mid, and perc through the "far." From there they use a single altiverb "tail" at the end of the chain for the actual hall sound. 

As someone who doesn't own altiverb, I'm very interested if this same technique can somehow be achieved using Logics revebs (silver verb for the early reflections, space designer for the tail, etc.) but I doubt this will work. I've always kept an eye on these type of threads with great interest, but have yet to hear any success stories using Space Designer instead of Altiverb.[/quote:c6òâ‰   šHâ‰   šIâ‰   šJâ‰   šKâ‰   šLâ‰   šMâ‰   šNâ‰   šOâ‰   šPâ‰   šQâ‰   šRâ‰   š


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 23, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Jay!

Now, when you say "quality of the IR's" I'm assuming that the "close/medium/far" IR's and the ability to only use Early Reflections comes into play as well? Is there an equivalent in space designer to "turn off the tail and only hear the early reflections" ala Altiverb? For us trying to create realistic orchestral simulations, this type of ability is key, no? 

Seeing as how I dont think its possible to get IR's of "early reflections" only (at least when sampling real rooms), I dont see how we can replicate this ability of altiverb via Space Designer. Perhaps I'm wrong?


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2009)

The foremost authority on this subject is SvK...I hope he chimes in soon, the anticipation is killing me!


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## Ashermusic (Mar 24, 2009)

JT3_Jon @ Mon Mar 23 said:


> Thanks for the reply Jay!
> 
> Now, when you say "quality of the IR's" I'm assuming that the "close/medium/far" IR's and the ability to only use Early Reflections comes into play as well? Is there an equivalent in space designer to "turn off the tail and only hear the early reflections" ala Altiverb? For us trying to create realistic orchestral simulations, this type of ability is key, no?
> 
> Seeing as how I dont think its possible to get IR's of "early reflections" only (at least when sampling real rooms), I dont see how we can replicate this ability of altiverb via Space Designer. Perhaps I'm wrong?



Space Designer gives you a lot of controls for this. You can adjust the initial level, attack time, decay time and end level in the volume envelope. In the middle of the GUI, you can even adjust these by moving nodes around.

What you don't get are the great IRs that are proprietary to Altiverb. As you know, I go for "good" and do not worry about "realistic" but the combo of Altiverb's Todd A-O with the Worcester Mechanics hall, or even better sometimes. the UA Plate 140 is gorgeous.


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## rJames (Mar 24, 2009)

Also what you don't get with SPace Designer are very many true stereo IRs.

I bought AltiVerb last year after really listening to Space Designer. Space Designer has a very few of what are called "Discrete circle" IRs. These are true stereo.

95% of Space Designer's IRs are just stereo. If you pan a mono source into this IR, you can get a realistic verb as the sound will bounce around the room. But if you use a prepanned source (like orchestral samples coming from Kontakt or PLAY or any stereo plug-in where you have stereo pan inside of the plug, you only get a reverb directly behind the item.

The verb comes only from the left from violins and only from the right on cellos. Not realistic. No bounce. For the bounce (especially important in the early reflections) you need a double stereo IR. YOu have a stereo IR on the right and a stereo IR on the left.

When you have a centered source, it goes partly to the left and gets bounced to the right as well, and partly to the right and gets bounced left.

Space Designer has very few of these "discrete circle," IRs. In AltiVerb, every IR has either mono source or stereo.

Third party IRs will have both as well like Peter Roos' or Studiodevices IRs.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 24, 2009)

rJames @ Tue Mar 24 said:


> Also what you don't get with SPace Designer are very many true stereo IRs.
> 
> I bought AltiVerb last year after really listening to Space Designer. Space Designer has a very few of what are called "Discrete circle" IRs. These are true stereo.
> 
> ...



True, but if you have Space Designer on a Bus (Aux) and you send to it Post Pan, it should preserve the panning illusion, no?


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## rJames (Mar 24, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Tue Mar 24 said:


> True, but if you have Space Designer on a Bus (Aux) and you send to it Post Pan, it should preserve the panning illusion, no?



NO, not for a prepanned stereo sample. You can send out Post Pan but when using stereo samples within Kontakt, you don't pan anything.

Yes, if you are sending a mono signal after panning to Space Designer, it will do fine. But if you send an already panned signal like a violin section from within Kontakt, Space Designer doesn't handle it correctly. The reverb will only come from the side that it is prepanned to.

The signal from Kontakt is always coming out centered (but stereo). Space designer can only tell where a source is from the pan.

Try it. Take a drum sound from UltraBeat and pan it totally right WITHIN UltraBeat. The reverb comes only from the right when bussed out to Space Designer.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 24, 2009)

rJames @ Tue Mar 24 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Mar 24 said:
> 
> 
> > True, but if you have Space Designer on a Bus (Aux) and you send to it Post Pan, it should preserve the panning illusion, no?
> ...



Ah, I see. Very good points.

But this is also why I do not like pre-panned samples. I want to make those decisions after the fact in the panning. The way some of the top orchestral engineers in LA set up an orchestra is quite different from a symphony orchestra in a concert hall.


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## gsilbers (Mar 24, 2009)

so altiverb is better cause of the panning issue in SD? 
or the IRs? 

as i mentioned before, those hollywood IR's are very good (and $$$) 
and give you stereo as well as a Center channel for mono impulses. 

http://www.numericalsound.com/sound-products.html


and i got the demo IR from this

http://www.samplicity.com/

its very good but they only give 2 IR


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## synthetic (Mar 24, 2009)

Altiverb sounds much better to me. No one who buys Logic wants to spend just as much again for a reverb that's supposed to already be there. But they do it because Altiverb blows Space Designer away. SD sounds metallic and thin in comparison. Altiverb is the standard for a reason.


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## Waywyn (Mar 24, 2009)

synthetic @ Tue Mar 24 said:


> Altiverb sounds much better to me. No one who buys Logic wants to spend just as much again for a reverb that's supposed to already be there. But they do it because Altiverb blows Space Designer away. SD sounds metallic and thin in comparison. Altiverb is the standard for a reason.



I have to second that, but I think if you would have the exact same IR of ToddAO for Space Designer it would almost sound as the same.

.. but even if it would be the case, I really like Altiverb for using the tails or ERs only. Recently I started to get rid of all the tails and use ER only for actual "room simulation" (add a few dB depening on the instrument) then use an impulse of Peter's "Samplicity" IRs as a general tail on the whole orchestra and I was really surprised how "open" my stuff started to sound.

As a sidenote: To be really honest, in my opinion the ToddAO IR is one of the best IRs besides all the others. I really do NOT doubt the skills of the Altiverb guys regarding recording IRs etc. BUT if you check out how the ToddAO IR was recorded, you don't wonder why it sounds so good.
It almost seems as if the ToddAO guys took a lot of time to actualy make those IRs right. Then they only used finest gear to make it happen.

Besides other concert halls and stages have different sound colors I think you really hear the difference when you dial in the ToddAO or anything else which comes with Altiverb.


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2009)

"SD sounds metallic and thin in comparison. Altiverb is the standard for a reason."

Aside that yours is a highly subjective statement, Space Designer is proprietary to Logic and hence it would be impossible for it to become a "standard"

I think part of Altiverb's success is due to a variety of factors such as the fact that it was first on the scene, AudioEase has done some very aggressive marketing for it, they have outfitted the GUI with enough bells and whistles (like the 360 QTVR photos), and last but not least, there really isn't any other competition except for maybe the Waves IR Reverb (I'm talking about cross-platform multi format plugin).

I think the one guy here who has really truly run A/B tests with the same IR's needs to chime in ASAP!


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## jeffc (Mar 24, 2009)

I've done tests with the Acousticas Lexicon 300 impulses, comparing Altiverb to Space Designer with the same impulse, and they are pretty much the same. This was quite a revelation to me, because as much as I tried, I always thought Space Designer sounded thin and metallic. But, this shows, I guess, that with the same impulses they can sound identical. The drag is that some of the Altiverb impulses are great, it's just that it kills my 8-core in Logic, and I have no idea why. Some people seem to be able to run tons of Altiverbs but for me 3 and my right most core is maxxed. 

Anyway, I would encourage someone else to compare the 2 with the same impulse. 



J


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## gsilbers (Mar 24, 2009)

can you load wav/aiff files in altiverb to ise as the IRs?

cause if you can then try the free demo IR from www.simplicity.com the church hall sounded good in SD.

and try it in altiverb for those who have both and wanna do a shoot out


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2009)

gsilbers @ Tue Mar 24 said:


> so altiverb is better cause of the panning issue in SD?
> or the IRs?
> 
> as i mentioned before, those hollywood IR's are very good (and $$$)
> ...



These Numerical Space IR's are synthetic IRs, not real space captures. Very good, but certainly not real spaces.

If you want more info, or even additional Samplicity IRs to evaluate, contact me at peter at peterroos dot com.


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## synthetic (Mar 25, 2009)

midphase @ Tue Mar 24 said:


> "SD sounds metallic and thin in comparison. Altiverb is the standard for a reason."
> 
> Aside that yours is a highly subjective statement,



Of course. All audio is subjective. I even added the words "to me" to drive this home, but I guess this was missed.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 29, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Tue Mar 24 said:


> JT3_Jon @ Mon Mar 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the reply Jay!
> ...



Speaking of the Plate 140, it's my main verb. I have no Altiverb or any other IR verb. The Plate 140 sounds warm and full to me, with great smooth tails.

I know I'm a Luddite( and mainly a song producer these days) but what am I missing, not having an IR?


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## Waywyn (Mar 30, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Mar 24 said:
> 
> 
> > JT3_Jon @ Mon Mar 23 said:
> ...



Well, most important thing is, you feel comfortable working with it and it sounds good. Anyone can tell you anything and on 1000 different corner you hear 1000 different opinions about 1000 different things.

I think there are a few people around giving a big damn about how to set up this ER and this distance and this blabla ... and they receive mails anyway, people asking about they set up their reverb since it sounds awesome.

Of course if lots of people (customers, fellow composers) think that there are reverb issues with your track and you also don't feel comfortable really - then it might time to get into it ..


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## gsilbers (Apr 24, 2009)

so i found the TODD AO IR for Space designer. dunno if its ok uploading it here so someone with logic and altiverb who would like to compare and give notes. 

i found it in the logicprohelp.com so i duno where its real origin is. also in that same site there is pretty cool IR of a finland hall record using a binaural mic. 


1st impressions of the todd ao is that its not as lush as i thought but it does have nice "real-ish" sound, (the point the right?) . il try to use it on orchestral (synphobia) and see how it is.


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## Hannesdm (Apr 25, 2009)

gsilbers @ Sat Apr 25 said:


> so i found the TODD AO IR for Space designer. dunno if its ok uploading it here so someone with logic and altiverb who would like to compare and give notes.
> 
> i found it in the logicprohelp.com so i duno where its real origin is. also in that same site there is pretty cool IR of a finland hall record using a binaural mic.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tip! I found the files on that forum. Don't know if it's ok to post them here, though.


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## synthetic (Apr 25, 2009)

Please don't trade sample libraries. At least don't talk about it on a library developers' forum. If you want to use AudioEase's libraries, you should pay for them. Even if you plan to use them in another plug-in for some reason.


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## gsilbers (Apr 25, 2009)

so this one IS from the altiverb library?

sorry if it is. i was dubious is it was from altiverb or someone just took its own IR from todd ao on a session.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Apr 26, 2009)

I have checked with the AudioEase guys and they will not, ever sell IRs separately from Altiverb.

To get their IRs, buy Altiverb and respect their work by not sharing the IRs.

I know many of you work with Macs but I can't refrain from plugging the excellent Pristine Space for PC one more time (www.voxengo.com).


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