# Beatstars pays out $200 million to producers.



## Alex Fraser (Jun 3, 2022)

I know that "beats" are kind of viewed with disdain around these parts, but..








Music marketplace BeatStars has paid out $200m to creators to date - Music Business Worldwide


Payout update was revealed by founder Abe Batshon on Twitch on Wednesday (June 1)…




www.musicbusinessworldwide.com





Either side of commissioned work, I've earned about 16K on the platform now, and that's small potatoes compared to many producers. Interested to hear if any other VI-C-ers are toiling away in this area.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> I know that "beats" are kind of viewed with disdain around these parts, but..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never heard of it but 16k ain't too bad. What is it you just put up beats and people buy them? Kind of cool.


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## kgdrum (Jun 3, 2022)

@Alex Fraser 
+1 I also have never heard of this and you’ve gotten my attention! lol 
Beats and grooves I can do, please tell us more. 👍


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## timbit2006 (Jun 3, 2022)

Unironically I didn't realize there was any money in making beats.
Time to fire up the algorithmic stochastic generators! 🤣
Is it like other platforms where you are limited to uploading a specific amount/month?


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> Unironically I didn't realize there was any money in making beats.
> Time to fire up the algorithmic stochastic generators! 🤣
> Is it like other platforms where you are limited to uploading a specific amount/month?


I heard of people selling beats but in all honesty I never thought people could actually make more than pennies. 16k is not a terribly large amount but every bit helps in these hyper inflated times.


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## AudioLoco (Jun 4, 2022)

I'm giving a look to the site, looks well made. Thanks for posting.
How does the copyright side of things work? it isn't that clear ...
It's selling the license to use or the actual copyright of the track? Is there a split once the artist releases the finished track? 
There is an option to download stems. These could be very volatile and difficult to control their usage. Is there a specific agreement about those?
Thx!!


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## AudioLoco (Jun 4, 2022)

P.S.
Also how can they offer both regular and exclusive usage at the same time for a given track?


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 5, 2022)

So to be clear, "beats" = an instrumental (usually in an urban genre) designed for someone to rap or sing over. Happy to help with the questions. Here goes..



José Herring said:


> What is it you just put up beats and people buy them? Kind of cool.


Pretty much. Customers buy a license to use them, like RF library music basically.



timbit2006 said:


> Is it like other platforms where you are limited to uploading a specific amount/month?


It depends on the platform, but generally there are no limits on uploads providing you have a "pro" subscription or similar.



AudioLoco said:


> How does the copyright side of things work? it isn't that clear ...
> It's selling the license to use or the actual copyright of the track? Is there a split once the artist releases the finished track?
> There is an option to download stems. These could be very volatile and difficult to control their usage. Is there a specific agreement about those?
> Thx!!


Generally the copyright of the beat remains with the producer. The licensee is given permission to use the beat as part of a "new song" - ie they have to add further musical content to the beat. Publishing is generally split between the producer and artist. 

On the stems. It's a bit of a grey area. As a producer, if you're not careful you can end up re-distributing sounds from your libraries in a way that would breach the licensing agreements you have for them. Ultimately, I'm not sure the developers care all that much. In fact, companies like NI are very much aware of how it works, but there's too much money to be made selling sounds to "beat producers" in the first place...



AudioLoco said:


> Also how can they offer both regular and exclusive usage at the same time for a given track?


Good question. Exclusive really means: No more licenses sold to anyone else beyond that point. Once an exclusive license is issued, the beat is automatically removed from the site. Any licenses issued before that point are upheld. In reality, most "exclusive" buyers know how this works and line up to grab new releases. I've sold beats within 2 minutes of upload, for example.


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2022)

So buy bigfish audio loops packs. create 4 tracks in a day for several months by mix and mashing several libraries and loops. 
Upload 300 tracks in a month for several months. 

upload the same to the other 20 other similar servcies. 

Upload to royalty free (pond5) and the other 300 similar services. 

call my self a "music producer" cash in the big bucks. 

You know that's how its gonna be played.


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## Macrawn (Jun 5, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> So buy bigfish audio loops packs. create 4 tracks in a day for several months by mix and mashing several libraries and loops.
> Upload 300 tracks in a month for several months.
> 
> upload the same to the other 20 other similar servcies.
> ...


I'd rather just work at McDonalds then do that. It's easier and more satisfying.


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## gsilbers (Jun 5, 2022)

Macrawn said:


> I'd rather just work at McDonalds then do that. It's easier and more satisfying.


You won’t get the chance to maybe “make it big” and “make millions “ “instafamous”


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 6, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> So buy bigfish audio loops packs. create 4 tracks in a day for several months by mix and mashing several libraries and loops.
> Upload 300 tracks in a month for several months.
> 
> upload the same to the other 20 other similar servcies.
> ...


That might work in theory (and I'm not going to wade into the weeds on what constitutes "real music" other than to say in my experience, if you have the chops it's easier just to write rather than to shortcut..)

The other key difference with library music is that there are only really two online market places to post your music on. (Beatstars, Airbit) Both services allow producers to set up a website (a bit like Wix) to facilitate the upload and selling of beats. Then you're on your own. Instead of taking a percentage of sales, each site simply charges a monthly fee to use the service. It's then on the producer to set up accounts with PayPal, Stripe etc and handle payments directly.

Essentially, the selling platforms provide a way for someone to hear your beats and a link to pay for them. There are extras (publishing if you want it, sound ID, very useful marketing integrations with external services) but no-one will do any promo or placement on your behalf.

If you want to make money, not only do you have to write (lots) of music but you need to be up to speed on GA, mailing lists (mine is 2K +) email funnels, automation (you won't have time to do everything manually..) and all the social media that goes with it. You'll also need to get a handle on something like Amazon S3 for all the gigajibs of data you'll be sending everywhere.

None of this is beyond the typical VI-C member. It's just new stuff to learn rather than legato navel gazing.


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## Shredoverdrive (Jun 6, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> None of this is beyond the typical VI-C member. It's just new stuff to learn rather than legato navel gazing.


Sounds like way too much work. I'll stick to legato navel gazing. Very meditative.


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## AudioLoco (Jun 6, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> Generally the copyright of the beat remains with the producer. The licensee is given permission to use the beat as part of a "new song" - ie they have to add further musical content to the beat. Publishing is generally split between the producer and artist.
> 
> On the stems. It's a bit of a grey area. As a producer, if you're not careful you can end up re-distributing sounds from your libraries in a way that would breach the licensing agreements you have for them. Ultimately, I'm not sure the developers care all that much. In fact, companies like NI are very much aware of how it works, but there's too much money to be made selling sounds to "beat producers" in the first place...
> 
> ...


Thanks Alex, all clearer now.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> if you have the chops it's easier just to write rather than to shortcut..)



This is where the big fish and other loop libraries come into play.

no need to have chops. Just need to know the loops (that most likley came from torrent sites) and do mashups that work.
do the transitions every 8 bars. have 2 sections.
Change formula depdning on sales.

I mean, if we are talking being part of a platform thats mostly into quantity and luck. And quality is already a given if using decent premade loops.


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## gsilbers (Jun 6, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> If you want to make money, not only do you have to write (lots) of music but you need to be up to speed on GA, mailing lists (mine is 2K +) email funnels, automation (you won't have time to do everything manually..) and all the social media that goes with it. You'll also need to get a handle on something like Amazon S3 for all the gigajibs of data you'll be sending everywhere.


Can you expand on this? Whats GA? 

And how would you tie in social media marketing into this if most of it is inside the platforms? You might send people to your track in that platform but would it have more sales rather than pay these platofrms directly so they can up the eyeballs on it? (im guessing they have some sort of back end advertising like spotify, amazon etc where its pay to play sort of thing)


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## Daniel James (Jun 6, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> I know that "beats" are kind of viewed with disdain around these parts, but..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let people screw their noses up mate. Only thing that really matters is the fans at the end of the chain...and they don't care one bit about if the track they love was started with a beatmaker.

Music is music, the rest is just people trying to act like their version of it is the most important. Mostly cause deep down we all want to feel the most important one in a room. Humans are weird. Also huge congrats on making some decent money out of it! re-invest and grow the empire 

I haven't gone down that route myself yet, unless you include the beats we do for H2 libs. What tends to do well over there? Would it be worth me as an individual or even something like HybridTwo to seriously look into? I genuinely don't know enough about the world to know if its worth it for people like me.

-DJ


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Can you expand on this? Whats GA?
> 
> And how would you tie in social media marketing into this if most of it is inside the platforms? You might send people to your track in that platform but would it have more sales rather than pay these platofrms directly so they can up the eyeballs on it? (im guessing they have some sort of back end advertising like spotify, amazon etc where its pay to play sort of thing)


GA = Google Analytics
Beatstars, for example has a really nice integration. If you're a data nerd - good times.

No backend advertising or similar. The income for these companies comes either from a percentage of sales (for producers with free accounts) or membership fees from those producers who pay a monthly subscription fee for the beats to be hosted.

There's also publishing (with Sony) but I've yet to look into it in any great depth - it's new to this side of the business - but I suspect it's any "anything goes" affair, similar to Soundcloud offerings etc.

As I mentioned, whilst these services have online marketplaces where users can purchase your wares (like a traditional music library) they also provide the tools for producers to make their own websites (complete with a custom domain) and market accordingly. And that's where the big guns succeed. Mailing lists, social media, YouTube...all pointing back the custom site to generate sales.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Let people screw their noses up mate. Only thing that really matters is the fans at the end of the chain...and they don't care one bit about if the track they love was started with a beatmaker.
> 
> Music is music, the rest is just people trying to act like their version of it is the most important. Mostly cause deep down we all want to feel the most important one in a room. Humans are weird. Also huge congrats on making some decent money out of it! re-invest and grow the empire
> 
> ...


Thanks DJ, kind words much appreciated mate on a Tuesday morning. I'd say look into it - you already have the production and marketing chops and a big online headstart. 👍
It's a handy income stream to have between commissions and once you're up and running, a very quick turnaround from mix to income.

What does well? Producers who tap into current trends always seem to be making hay. Anything that a rapper or singer can use. Basically, tricksy production doesn't do so well. The best producers allow space for the artist to do his or her thing.


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## AudioLoco (Jun 7, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> Happy to help with the questions. Here goes..


Sorry Alex if I may ask a last question:
What do you do as for loudness/limiting?

I had a couple of years engineering in a small studio for some grime artists around a decade ago... 
It is where I learnt some of the terminology being a Rock guy, and also shared our common love for green stuff... 
I remember some people coming in with super limited instrumental tracks as you normally would have in a finished product. 
Then when it was time to lay the vocals on top it wasn't smooth as the instrumental would be limited like a record so you would attenuate it by a lot, but you still had to have the vocals on top and then you would put some more mastering processing on the master and it would sound a bit of a mess of double mastering.
Are there standard loudness (LUFS/peaks etc) that are required for this kind of dedicated instrumental task?
On one side you want to impress the artist as much as possible with aggressive dynamics so they actually want to license your tracks, but on the other I guess you want the final product with the vocals to sound good. 
What is your catch on that? Is there a procedure on the site for this?
In normal circumstances obviously I just provide the producer/artist with the unmastered instrumental, but if you do that here it might just sound low in level and not punchy enough therefore not attractive especially at a first listen.

Thanks again and sorry for bugging ya!


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> Sorry Alex if I may ask a last question:
> What do you do as for loudness/limiting?
> 
> I had a couple of years engineering in a small studio for some grime artists around a decade ago...
> ...


Happy to answer. It's a good question and something I've gone around on a few times.

My current solution is to produce 2 versions of each beat. An "unmastered version" without final limiting etc which is the download version supplied upon purchase.

I also create a separate "demo mix" with mastering limiting etc, including the vocal "tag."
That's the one that goes on the storefront.

Beatstars (for example) allows both these versions to be uploaded per beat (along with stems.)


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## AudioLoco (Jun 7, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> Happy to answer. It's a good question and something I've gone around on a few times.
> 
> My current solution is to produce 2 versions of each beat. An "unmastered version" without final limiting etc which is the download version supplied upon purchase.
> 
> ...


Fantastic! More then one version makes perfect sense, wasn't sure it was a possibility (for the site policy)...
Thank you!


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> Fantastic! More then one version makes perfect sense, wasn't sure it was a possibility (for the site policy)...
> Thanks you!


You're welcome. Something else I forgot to add: It's possible to upload your stem files to a third party storage provider. (I use Amazon S3.) When you add a beat to the site, instead of uploading all the stem files, you can simply supply the S3 URL instead.

The advantage (apart from much easier backups and archives) is that you can supply the stem URL's to multiple marketplaces (where accepted) instead of constantly uploading the same files.


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## AudioLoco (Jun 7, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> As a qui
> 
> You're welcome. Something else I forgot to add: It's possible to upload your stem files to a third party storage provider. (I use Amazon S3.) When you add a beat to the site, instead of uploading all the stem files, you can simply supply the S3 URL instead.
> 
> The advantage (apart from much easier backups and archives) is that you can supply the stem URL's to multiple marketplaces (where accepted) instead of constantly uploading the same files.


Super! that's a great tip...


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## el-bo (Jun 7, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> GA = Google Analytics
> Beatstars, for example has a really nice integration. If you're a data nerd - good times.
> 
> No backend advertising or similar. The income for these companies comes either from a percentage of sales (for producers with free accounts) or membership fees from those producers who pay a monthly subscription fee for the beats to be hosted.
> ...


Thanks for all your insights. A few questions, if I may:

1) Do you see people successfully transition from on-site library-type sales to personal domain hosting, without skipping a, erm…beat, and being able to capitalise on previous rep? Seems like it might be a bit overwhelming jumping in to the whole bus iess and marketing side of things, when it might be worthing testing the market (literally) as proof-of-concept.

2) Are there any conflicts in supplying the same material, or even just using the same production name, to/on multiple sites e.g Pond5? I get that the main issue is that they not be 'exclusive' sites, but are there any other considerations?

3) Do people tend to specialise in one (sub)genre, or are there people able to do well while offering a variety?

I did look into this a few years ago, but argued myself out of it (Just bottled it, really). Three years later, and can’t think of anything I have to lose.


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## lux (Jun 7, 2022)

I recently had a couple conversations about it and what I've understood is:


Beatstars has little or no organic search engine. So basically all traffic must be driven from outside
It changed quite a bit since the start of the pandemy, reducing "niche" spaces to a minimum
Starting from scratch as of today is as hard as it sounds, compared to RF websites. Maybe if you started around 2019-2020 you had the time to grow some kind of community (mailing list, youtube channel, socials) in way less crowded times.
I wonder how much time will pass before a legal issue will arise and change it forever. Currently the system is all based on "sounds like this artist", something RF websites abandoned after the Eminem thing a few years ago.
Not sure how this is correct but that's what I've understood so far.


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## AudioLoco (Jun 7, 2022)

lux said:


> I wonder how much time will pass before a legal issue will arise and change it forever. Currently the system is all based on "sounds like this artist", something RF websites abandoned after the Eminem thing a few years ago.


Yeah was wondering about that. There is even a picture of famous artists like Drake and Kanje Wurst as "album cover" to said tracks, weird it's even legal...


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Thanks for all your insights.


You're welcome. Though I have to stress that there are many producers on BS and others who are playing things far better than I.



el-bo said:


> 1) Do you see people successfully transition from on-site library-type sales to personal domain hosting, without skipping a, erm…beat, and being able to capitalise on previous rep? Seems like it might be a bit overwhelming jumping in to the whole bus iess and marketing side of things, when it might be worthing testing the market (literally) as proof-of-concept.


Good question. Actually, I came from the other side. I created my own website/payment systems etc and ran it for a decade before finally switching the BS platform. The constant need for code updates etc felt like continuously re-inventing the wheel and I was out of my depth as coding tech moved on.

In many ways, the BS marketplace and "own site" are one and the same. Upload the beat once and it appears in both places. Both the marketplace and your site can have web hooks into the same mailing list, for example. So there isn't really a division.

I'd say that the completion is fierce enough that there isn't really a "testing the water" option. But it's possible that you'd immediately pickup sales from the various marketplaces. My experience is probably "old school" now, but much of my income has come from repeat business. And that means you need to capture customer data, continued marketing etc.



el-bo said:


> 2) Are there any conflicts in supplying the same material, or even just using the same production name, to/on multiple sites e.g Pond5? I get that the main issue is that they not be 'exclusive' sites, but are there any other considerations?


One that springs to mind: If you sell an "exclusive" license on one site, you have to remove the same beat manually from any other sites, post haste.



el-bo said:


> 3) Do people tend to specialise in one (sub)genre, or are there people able to do well while offering a variety?


I do one style, others do many. Really - I think it's a numbers game more than anything else.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> Yeah was wondering about that. There is even a picture of famous artists like Drake and Kanje Wurst as "album cover" to said tracks, weird it's even legal...


Yup. That's really a "gaming the engine" issue.

Beatstars - and others - really do stress the "hands off" approach. As an example, all financial transactions are directly between the producer and artist via the producer's personal PayPal account etc. The sites don't get involved, even in the case of refunds and non-deliveries.

A good analogy would be: Beatstars is your landlord. You pay them rent for the shop. But it's your business as to what you sell in the shop. That might have to change over time (legals and they're making enough money to attract attention...) but it's the position they've deliberately taken for now.

(Edit: That said, when uploading new beats you have to make the usual declarations of the work being your own etc. But I'm not sure there are any checks.)


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

lux said:


> Beatstars has little or no organic search engine. So basically all traffic must be driven from outside
> 
> It changed quite a bit since the start of the pandemy, reducing "niche" spaces to a minimum
> Starting from scratch as of today is as hard as it sounds, compared to RF websites. Maybe if you started around 2019-2020 you had the time to grow some kind of community (mailing list, youtube channel, socials) in way less crowded times.
> I wonder how much time will pass before a legal issue will arise and change it forever. Currently the system is all based on "sounds like this artist", something RF websites abandoned after the Eminem thing a few years ago.


There's a search engine of sorts. It relies on a "tag" based system. When you upload new beats, you can choose up to 3 tags per instrumental.

I'd say it's possible to start today. Just like library music, you'd have to produce consistently, take the hit on creating freebies (in exchange for an email of course!) and build things up over time. I'm not sure anything is easy where music is concerned.


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## lux (Jun 7, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> There's a search engine of sorts. It relies on a "tag" based system. When you upload new beats, you can choose up to 3 tags per instrumental.
> 
> I'd say it's possible to start today. Just like library music, you'd have to produce consistently, take the hit on creating freebies (in exchange for an email of course!) and build things up over time. I'm not sure anything is easy where music is concerned.


Yeah, the issue is that it's already complicated to target a track with 30 tags, having three basically means no targeting (as you cannot find enough niches to explore and place yourself into). 

May I ask how many years have you been already on the platform?


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 7, 2022)

lux said:


> Yeah, the issue is that it's already complicated to target a track with 30 tags, having three basically means no targeting (as you cannot find enough niches to explore and place yourself into).
> 
> May I ask how many years have you been already on the platform?


Yep, that's a big difficulty. Beatstars do run a Google Adwords style promo system (of course they do!) to increase visibility.

On the platform since April 2020, albeit sporadically. I first used it as a temporary measure whilst fixing my own site, but have since moved "full time"


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## el-bo (Jun 7, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> You're welcome. Though I have to stress that there are many producers on BS and others who are playing things far better than I.


Thanks, again!

For the moment, I'm just interested in finding out any big gotchas that could potentially stop me dead in my...tracks  Besides, I'd much rather get the info from someone I trust



Alex Fraser said:


> Good question. Actually, I came from the other side. I created my own website/payment systems etc and ran it for a decade before finally switching the BS platform. The constant need for code updates etc felt like continuously re-inventing the wheel and I was out of my depth as coding tech moved on.
> 
> In many ways, the BS marketplace and "own site" are one and the same. Upload the beat once and it appears in both places. Both the marketplace and your site can have web hooks into the same mailing list, for example. So there isn't really a division.
> 
> I'd say that the completion is fierce enough that there isn't really a "testing the water" option. But it's possible that you'd immediately pickup sales from the various marketplaces. My experience is probably "old school" now, but much of my income has come from repeat business. And that means you need to capture customer data, continued marketing etc.


The "testing the water" part is completely on my side. 

Firstly, i don't really have any real experience with these areas of electronic music (Not creating them, anyway). Nor do I have a huge amount of domain knowledge. When I first thought of doing it, it was more about setting myself a challenge to become conversant in a couple of styles/genres; perhaps even good. But then the negative talk just put any notion of that to rest.

While I feel perhaps a bit more confident this time around, I need to remove as many barrier-to-entry as possible. Without having to learn about and set up all the promotion side (Which at the moment I can't even begin to get excited about), I should be able to concentrate on workflow and the music itself.

I don't have any illusions of earning a lot of money, or even any at all. Would be quite nice if one person bought something from me, though 

Anyway...So far you've already offered a good amount of knowledge in terms of the wider aspects of the business model. Will keep some of this info filed away, should the future end up looking a bit rosier.



Alex Fraser said:


> One that springs to mind: If you sell an "exclusive" license on one site, you have to remove the same beat manually from any other sites, post haste.


Gotcha



Alex Fraser said:


> I do one style, others do many. Really - I think it's a numbers game more than anything else.


Being honest, I wasn't sure your Ambient/Death-Yodelling fusion would go over too well with the masses. But here you are 

Good to know that there's room for multiple styles in one's portfolio, as normally that kinda thing is discouraged. 

Cheers


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 8, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Being honest, I wasn't sure your Ambient/Death-Yodelling fusion would go over too well with the masses. But here you are


Haha! <makes note...>



el-bo said:


> Firstly, i don't really have any real experience with these areas of electronic music (Not creating them, anyway). Nor do I have a huge amount of domain knowledge. When I first thought of doing it, it was more about setting myself a challenge to become conversant in a couple of styles/genres; perhaps even good. But then the negative talk just put any notion of that to rest.


The good thing about starting up right now is a lot of the stuff you need comes for free. Domains are dirty cheap of course, bulk email services like Mailchimp offer free accounts which will take you quite far. Google Analytics - free. Canva (for album art) also free.

(Pro tip: Art created with Canva can be shared across the web directly with your Mailchimp, Beatstars accounts. Speeds the process up.)

And as a VI-C member, you're already stacked to the gills with sounds, libraries etc etc.


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## el-bo (Jun 8, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> The good thing about starting up right now is a lot of the stuff you need comes for free. Domains are dirty cheap of course, bulk email services like Mailchimp offer free accounts which will take you quite far. Google Analytics - free. Canva (for album art) also free.
> 
> (Pro tip: Art created with Canva can be shared across the web directly with your Mailchimp, Beatstars accounts. Speeds the process up.)
> 
> And as a VI-C member, you're already stacked to the gills with sounds, libraries etc etc.


Definitely some good resource tips. I know I could easily busy myself with learning how to do all that side of stuff (A procrastinator's dream, really). But none of that is any use if I can't sit on my arse and actually make the music.

That's why I'm more inclined towards Pond5. The only barrier-to-entry is me. And it helps that I feel more confident about working in styles more apt for that market. Actually been selling some items so I can pounce on one of the Komplete upgrades, to fill in some gaps. Other than that (and other than the fact that my computer is practically dead), I'm good to go 

Thanks again, for all your help. Much appreciated!


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 8, 2022)

el-bo said:


> But none of that is any use if I can't sit on my arse and actually make the music.


True story for too many of us.


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