# What music by women composers should orchestration students study?



## Lea1229 (Oct 10, 2020)

So I'm in an orchestration class, and so far, no women composers have appeared in our repertoire study. Surely in this collection of knowledgeable folk some of you have some suggestions? Although it's an orchestration class, we also listen to works for small ensembles as a way to learn about the capabilities/characteristics of each section of the orchestra. Asking here because I feel like real persons will always lead to more interesting answers than a google search result!


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## brek (Oct 10, 2020)

Great topic!

Florence Price, Lili Boulanger, and if it reaches into jazz orchestration, Maria Schneider. 

Then you can look to the film world. Shirley Walker, among others, was a composer and orchestrator.


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## JohnG (Oct 10, 2020)

how about Lili Boulanger? Plenty of her stuff on Spotify.


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 10, 2020)

Orchestration classes don’t _often_ focus in on contemporary composers, but Kaija Saariaho and Augusta Read Thomas are two of my all time favorites. Add to that Jennifer Higdon, Unsuk Chin, Caroline Shaw... there are quite a few incredible living female composers. Not enough recognition, of course, but therein alone is a wealth of genius to study.


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2020)

Dora Pejačević wrote some great orchestral music and scores are available.

.


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## Kurosawa (Oct 10, 2020)

Lili Boulanger is one of greatest! ☺ 
Rachel Portman or Shirley Walker come to mind, regarding Film Scoring.


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## CT (Oct 10, 2020)

Yeah Kaija and Lili are great models of orchestration. Also Sofia Gubaidulina.


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 10, 2020)

Big Rachel Portman fan here.


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## dcoscina (Oct 10, 2020)

You can also buy Boulanger's full scores as well. Her sense of orchestral colour was equal to her contemporaries Ravel and Debussy. An EXCELLENT video series on YT exists compliments of orchestration guru Thomas Goss (and he's a real authority, he knows his stuff).


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## jonathanparham (Oct 10, 2020)

Pinar Toprak
Germaine Franco


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## Babaghanoush (Oct 10, 2020)

Lea1229 said:


> Although it's an orchestration class, we also listen to works for small ensembles as a way to learn about the capabilities/characteristics of each section of the orchestra.



IMO, Caroline Shaw is a wonderful contemporary female composer with many small ensemble pieces. I think her string writing is exceptional.




She has both quartet and full orchestra versions of her piece "Entr'acte" which I think could be very instructive.

Even better, you can purchase perusal scores from her website https://caroline-shaw-editions.myshopify.com/ for literally $2!


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## Living Fossil (Oct 10, 2020)

What a great thread!

I'd like to mention Sofia Gubaidulina, one of my favorite contemporary composers.
An aspect in her work that influences her colours a lot is the use of microtonality and fluctuations of pitches.


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## b_elliott (Oct 10, 2020)

Two female composers recently featured in a BBC interview by Max Richter: Hildur Guðnadóttir and Angélica Negrón. Just learned of them last week. Worthy of listening as they were new to me. Then there is Wendy Carlos' works as well to consider. 










BBC World Service - Music Life, The science of soundtracks with Max Richter, Hans Zimmer, Hildur Guðnadóttir and Angélica Negrón


Four of today's most notable film and TV composers discuss how they got started in music




www.bbc.co.uk


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## dcoscina (Oct 10, 2020)

Also Rachel Portman and Anne Dudley are extremely good composers.


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## paularthur (Oct 10, 2020)

Yoko Shimomura is in my top. Last in person orchestral concert I went to had a lot of her music. Not sure if VGM-Composers count* for what you're looking for though.


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## Lea1229 (Oct 10, 2020)

paularthur said:


> Yoko Shimomura is in my top. Last in person orchestral concert I went to had a lot of her music. Not sure if VGM-Composers count* for what you're looking for though.


I don't know if it's what the prof would look for but I'm certainly interested! It seems like the most well-known and well-liked contemporary music is written for videogames and film, seems silly to exclude it.


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## Lea1229 (Oct 10, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> What a great thread!
> 
> I'd like to mention Sofia Gubaidulina, one of my favorite contemporary composers.
> An aspect in her work that influences her colours a lot is the use of microtonality and fluctuations of pitches.


 
Love microtonality, can't wait to check her music out!


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## Lea1229 (Oct 10, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Big Rachel Portman fan here.
> 
> Curious - what difference does the gender make?



Well, historically, people believed it did make a difference - that music written by men was worth studying and music written by women was not. Given that we now know better, the curriculum should probably be updated. Otherwise it seems like we approve of the old assumptions. 

I don't think our capabilities are inherently different, but our experiences often are and I think those can influence our work. I've only ever found it exciting to hear a greater range of influences.


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## Mackieguy (Oct 10, 2020)

Shirley Walker, Pinar Toprak and Rachel Portman are three of my fav composers. Might be a goof starting point for you.


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## JJP (Oct 10, 2020)

This is more targeted towards ensembles looking to perform works by a more diverse selection of composers, but may be helpful in your search. They have a searchable database of works that has been developing as a result of research and hard work over the last several years.

Institute for Composer Diversity

It's true that women are very underrepresented in the study of orchestral music. This is primarily because women have historically not been accepted as composers in the same way men have.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 10, 2020)

Lea1229 said:


> Well, historically, people believed it did make a difference - that music written by men was worth studying and music written by women was not. Given that we now know better, the curriculum should probably be updated. Otherwise it seems like we approve of the old assumptions.


Not really, if they didnt have access to an orchestra 1700-1800s for instance(most people didnt) then they wouldn't have their music played, and would be very hard to identify talent. If talent existed it was un-realized - so it's not really wether or not we think women can't compose, but there aren't going to be a good enough pool from that time period worth studying.

A bassoon player doesn't play a line differently because the composer is female, so learn what you need to learn from what is available and move on. Your goal is to learn, that should be your primary concern. If you want to celebrate female composers and the incredible shift in accessibility in the past century you can do that seperate from study.

Plenty of contemporary composers worth the attention, and study - but unless your classes specifically study contemporary composition, this would be a little weird and shoehorned in.





__





Shirley Walker - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Ms. Walker will always get my vote though!


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## Dave Connor (Oct 10, 2020)

Florence Price should be a household name like Gershwin is. She is one of the great American composers (20th century) and particularly gifted orchestrator. There’s no boys club quite like the _Composers _club and being black compounded that terribly no doubt.


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## mikeh-375 (Oct 10, 2020)

Helen Grime and Unsuk Chin are a bit special too, but not in a cinematic/epic etc. way..


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## ptram (Oct 11, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


>



One of the most original, energetic and impressive pieces ever heard. Thank you!

Paolo


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## Wally Garten (Oct 11, 2020)

JohnG said:


> how about Lili Boulanger? Plenty of her stuff on Spotify.



John, I'm also going to steal your recommendation from a month or so back: Ethel Smyth, who wrote some pretty exciting, filmic music for an opera called "The Wreckers."


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## Maarten (Oct 11, 2020)

Fanny Mendelssohn.


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## mikrokosmiko (Oct 11, 2020)

For romantic music, Louise Farrenc is awesome


Germaine Tailleferre is a personal favorite 


Also, a friend of mine has made this map of women composers, if you are interested :
https://svmusicology.com/mapa/


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## Farkle (Oct 11, 2020)

Lea1229 said:


> So I'm in an orchestration class, and so far, no women composers have appeared in our repertoire study. Surely in this collection of knowledgeable folk some of you have some suggestions? Although it's an orchestration class, we also listen to works for small ensembles as a way to learn about the capabilities/characteristics of each section of the orchestra. Asking here because I feel like real persons will always lead to more interesting answers than a google search result!



Shirley Walker, and Rachel Portman. Especially Rachel's work on "Jim Henson's The Storyteller". Absolutely lovely woodwind writing there.

Mike


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## Farkle (Oct 11, 2020)

JJP said:


> This is more targeted towards ensembles looking to perform works by a more diverse selection of composers, but may be helpful in your search. They have a searchable database of works that has been developing as a result of research and hard work over the last several years.
> 
> Institute for Composer Diversity
> 
> It's true that women are very underrepresented in the study of orchestral music. This is primarily because women have historically not been accepted as composers in the same way men have.



That's a thorny subject, as (in my opinion), there were many factors that "blanketed" women composers in different historical eras (Clara Schumann being an example, of a great composer who was actually the breadwinner for the family, while Robert was composing, so she chose not to compose, to keep food on the table), BUT...

There are several amazing women composers today that are just badass. I'll pimp out my Philly peops:

Andrea Clearfield.

Jennifer Higdon (faculty at Curtis, btw).

Two kickass composers that are women. Jason, to your point, they are probably (maybe definitely?) underrepresented in academic study... but you know me, baby... if you want to study the greats, you go find the greats. My schooling never focused on Tchai, because he was "conservative as a composer"; but if you know what you want to do... you go study Tchai, cause he's a beast. 

ANYWAYS... two more kickass women composers for you. Check out "Blue Cathedral" by Jennifer, it's top notch.

Mike


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## brek (Oct 11, 2020)

On the topic of contemporary composers,

I recently discovered this work by Anna Clyne and just love it:


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## patrick76 (Oct 11, 2020)

Joan Tower is worth looking into - here's a link.


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## JJP (Oct 11, 2020)

Farkle said:


> That's a thorny subject, as (in my opinion), there were many factors that "blanketed" women composers in different historical eras (Clara Schumann being an example, of a great composer who was actually the breadwinner for the family, while Robert was composing, so she chose not to compose, to keep food on the table), BUT...



I don't think it's a particularly thorny subject. It's just history. Choosing not to compose wasn't a choice most women had in orchestral circles. Women weren't even allowed to be members of major sypmphony orchestras until the 20th century. Berlin didn't allow them until 1982 (and even then members voted to have the first female removed because her tone supposedly didn't blend). The Vienna Phil didn't allow women to be full-time members until 1997!

Looking at the repertoire of 120 orchestras in the USA for 2019-2020 season, only 8% of the works performed were composed by women. For the two orchestras with the most performances of works by women, those works made up 32% of the schedule.

Given the limited opportunities afforded women to be part of the orchestral community, it's no surprise that they are not incorporated into standard lists of studied works. I don't think it's enough to tell students to go find the works themselves. It's important to show students that women create just as compelling works as the other half of humanity. Omission sends the opposite message. "If their work is so great, why don't we study it like we do the works of men?"


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## Farkle (Oct 11, 2020)

JJP said:


> I don't think it's a particularly thorny subject. It's just history. Choosing not to compose wasn't a choice most women had in orchestral circles. Women weren't even allowed to be members of major sypmphony orchestras until the 20th century. Berlin didn't allow them until 1982 (and even then members voted to have the first female removed because her tone supposedly didn't blend). The Vienna Phil didn't allow women to be full-time members until 1997!
> 
> Looking at the repertoire of 120 orchestras in the USA for 2019-2020 season, only 8% of the works performed were composed by women. For the two orchestras with the most performances of works by women, those works made up 32% of the schedule.
> 
> Given the limited opportunities afforded women to be part of the orchestral community, it's no surprise that they are not incorporated into standard lists of studied works. I don't think it's enough to tell students to go find the works themselves. It's important to show students that women create just as compelling works as the other half of humanity. Omission sends the opposite message. "If their work is so great, why don't we study it like we do the works of men?"



Man, I hear you, there are some serious stories of symphony orchestras that had a MAD bias against women performers (there's a famous story of a woman trombonist that blind auditioned for a European orchestra wearing boots, to get her rightfully earned place in the orchestra, but that's for another time!). 

But, that's conflating an argument. A good argument, btw, I'm on board with you. I'm just keeping it to composers. Your point above was bleeding into "women orchestral performers", which is another talk, that I'm not qualified to talk about. Hell, I'm barely qualified to talk about women composers, hahaha! 

I'll keep the talk to women _composers _not being represented in the classical/art composer community. So, your contrapoint is "if they're so great, why aren't they studied?"

I think it's two fold, neither of which is gender related, in my opinion.

1. You have 4 years in an undergrad education to teach an 18-22 year old 500 years of music, including world music, pop music, and jazz music. You have to play to the "titans", which are the industry standards. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. That's the _beginning_ of a composer's journey, but it's a good "benchmark study".

2. Liberal music schools (I studied at two of them) like to make "adventurous composers" sexy (Berg, Xenakis, etc). So, when you get to the upper training, instead of finding the hidden gems (Higdon, Barber, Tchaikovsky), you go to the "weirdos" (Xenakis, Cage), Cause they're sexy. Which screws over quality women composers, _as it screws over non-adventurous composers of all delineations_. There's a reason Tchai and Sammy Barber weren't taught in Romantic and 20th Century Theory. They were "conservative". Not because they were gay (cause they were), or non-african. Cause they weren't weird.

So, it's kind of on to us as artists to find, dig, unearth our great influences. Like great art, don't rely upon large organizations to tell us what to listen to. Be individuals, be curious, ask our community for advice. You know me, I can't stand large institutions telling me what I should study; but I also understand the need for an _initial_ codified study of the tentpole composers, and then branch out.

And last, fiery point. I love my female composers. But on a desert island, I'm still bringing the scores to Daphnis and Chloe, Appalachian Spring, and Firebird Suite (1919). Cause those three scores are legendary. And I'm not sexist for saying that. Those three scores should be sent to alien races as examples of what orchestral art composers can do. They are the benchmarks for us, as composers. And, as an artist, I get to make a final decision as to whom I study and prioritize.

Mike


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## tonaliszt (Oct 11, 2020)

Valerie Coleman. Woodwind quintets are one of the most difficult orchestral groups to compose for and her work is absolutely the best I've ever heard.

And I just found out that Laurie Johnson was in fact a man. That is rather disappointing... Still a good composer though! Bit of a Bela Bartok situation (I thought he was a woman until I was probably 15 or so)!


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## darcvision (Oct 11, 2020)

1. Yoko Kanno
2. Michiru Oshima
3. Yoko Shimomura


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## Lea1229 (Oct 11, 2020)

ptram said:


> One of the most original, energetic and impressive pieces ever heard. Thank you!
> 
> Paolo



Oh. My god. Mind blown - I freaking love this!


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## Dave Connor (Oct 12, 2020)

Has anyone mentioned Laura Karpman? Fantastic composer with some great film scores.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 12, 2020)

Farkle said:


> (there's a famous story of a woman trombonist that blind auditioned for a European orchestra wearing boots, to get her rightfully earned place in the orchestra, but that's for another time!).


how about no, it's not a story for another time. 

That sounds like a good story, (insert pun about picking ones self up by the bootstraps) for now. Sounds like a classic book cover to me(dad jokes galore)


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## Farkle (Oct 12, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> how about no, it's not a story for another time.
> 
> That sounds like a good story, (insert pun about picking ones self up by the bootstraps) for now. Sounds like a classic book cover to me(dad jokes galore)




Oh, this story is badass. It might be apocryphal, but it's fun to tell it.

Legend has it, that European orchestras didn't believe that women could play brass, especially trombones, at the top level. All sorts of reasons (all debunked). "They don't have the lip endurance that men do, they don't have the lung capacity, their delicate ears will be damaged."

When many orchestras audition, they do so behind a blind screen. Well, when a woman walks out with her typical shoes, you can _hear_ it's a woman. So when she walks out to audition for trombone, she's already done.

So, one enterprising young woman wore heavy winter boots, and clumped out. All the reviewers heard "man boots", and settled in to judge her as a man. Big surprise, she landed principal trombone. When the reviewers found out, they freaked. Made her re-audition blind... she did the thing with the boots again, STILL got first chair. Then, reviewers from ANOTHER orchestra were brought in, and blind-reviewed this woman, with the other auditioners. She _still_ landed principal! 

So, she ended up getting the gig. I don't know if this is the woman that this happened to, but here's an actual documented example of a similar position a female trombonist found herself in.









Female trombonist fought battle against orchestra sexism


Abbie Conant didn’t anticipate that taking a job with the Munich Philharmonic would also mean entering a 13-year legal battle for human rights. But while she expressed discomfort at the term “. . .




www.timescolonist.com




.

Mike


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## Lea1229 (Oct 12, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Has anyone mentioned Laura Karpman? Fantastic composer with some great film scores.


 
No, I haven't seen that name yet. Thanks!


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## Lea1229 (Oct 12, 2020)

Hi everyone, just want to give a big thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, including: Stefandy31, Patrick76, Brek, Farkle, Mikrokosmiko, Maarten, Wally Garten, Ptram, Mikeh-375, Dave Connor, JohnG, Duncan Krummel, Synergy543, Kurosawa, Mike T, Ronorchcomp, dcoscina, Profound Silence, Jonathanparham, Babaghanoush, Living Fossil, b_elliott, paularthur, MackieGuy, JJP, Tonaliszt

And shared all of these composers! 
Yoko Kanno, Michiru Oshima, Yoko Shimomura, Valerie Coleman, Joan Tower, Anna Clyne, Jennifer Higdon, Andrea Clearfield, Shirley Walker, Rachel Portman, Louise Farrenc, Germain Tailleferre, Fanny Mendelssohn, Ethyl Smith, Unsuk Chin, Helen Grime, Lili Boulanger, Florence Price, Maria Schneider, Shirley Walker, Kaija Saariaho, Augusta Read Thomas, Caroline Shaw, Dora Pejacevic, Sofia Gubaidolina, Pinar Toprak, Germaine Franco, Hildur Guonadottir, Angelica Negron, Wendy Carlos, Anne Dudley, Laura Karpman

Hopefully I didn't miss anyone. I definitely think our Professor would be interested in sharing works by some of these composers with the class, as he has included both non-classical music and contemporary music thus far, and some of these are really phenomenal. Also thanks for the links and resources some of you shared. There's something about hearing people's relationship/love/discoverystory about these various pieces of music that just warms my heart. Y'all always come through for me!! Cheers, 
Lea


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## kgdrum (Oct 12, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> What a great thread!
> 
> I'd like to mention Sofia Gubaidulina, one of my favorite contemporary composers.
> An aspect in her work that influences her colours a lot is the use of microtonality and fluctuations of pitches.





+1

Sofia Gubaidulina is a phenomenal, fearless composer! The piece of music that first exposed me to her brilliance is : In Tempus Praesens! ❤️


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## oooooooooooooooooh (Oct 12, 2020)

I'll be another to add to the chorus of people who love Kaija Saariaho, Unsuk Chin, Yoko Kanno, Michiru Oshima, and Anna Clyne, but honestly, you can't go wrong with any of the names recommended thus far, fantastic all!

BUT, there are a few I haven't seen mentioned that I'd like to throw into the pool, in no particular order:

1. Nicole Lizee—the composer I am most excited to hear a new work by, she does fantastically exciting and wonderful things with rhythm and electroacoustic music. Her "Hitchcock Etudes" are probably her most famous work and certainly worth your time, but I'm also really into

2. Jesse Montgomery—someone I keep seeing more and more of, she's an especially exciting writer for strings whose music is always a JOY to listen to, which is not always a given in contemporary classical music (and I say this as somebody who gets a great deal of enjoyment from more abstract works).

3. Du Yun—a fairly recent winner of the Pulitzer Prize, she is generally of the more "abstract" ilk that I mentioned above, and a great example of it at that! Her "Impeccable Quake" is a piece I've been enjoying a lot lately.

4. Missy Mazzoli—often associated with the Brooklyn post-minimalists, her work is KIND OF that but very much it's own thing and very cool. Lately she's been writing some killer operas. She also has a band called Victoire that is a ton of fun.

5. Yuki Kajiura—honestly, I'm kind of surprised that Kanno, Oshima, and Shimomura have been mentioned and not her. Another one of the great (primarily) anime composers, she also has written a ton of songs that are a good time.

6. Chen Yi—I am absolutely running out of steam here, but Chen Yi is another composer who makes especially lovely use of texture. Her "Ba Yin (The Eight Sounds)" is a lovely, rare work for saxophone quartet and string orchestra.

And of course, if you like the marimba, one cannot forget the great Keiko Abe.


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## Leigh (Oct 13, 2020)

I'm a big fan of the music of Julia Wolfe who won the Pullitzer in 2015.

**Leigh


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## tf-drone (Oct 14, 2020)

Hi,

perhaps - all born before 1900:
Luise Adolpha Le Beau
Amy Beach
Leokadiya Kashperova
Adelina de Lara
Henriette Renié
Johanna Senfter (8 symphonies and several concertos!)
Emilia Gubitosi
Mirrie Hill
Germaine Tailleferre


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## Leigh (Oct 14, 2020)

I just remembered Maria Schneider!

**Leigh


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## Fenicks (Oct 23, 2020)

Jessica Curry is another video game composer of note. She wrote the transcendent score for Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, which placed 8th in the UK's Official Classical Artist Albums Chart before being pulled once they realised it was from a video game. Her choral arrangements are lovely.


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## Thomas Kallweit (Oct 24, 2020)

Great thread - thanks for this!
And a lot to learn, so I guess this will stay as a great source for everyone.

I have one composer to mention, which wasn't before I suppose (?)...

Cecile Chaminade - I really like this piece of work:


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## jonathanparham (Oct 24, 2020)

I forgot Penka Kouneva. I don't know if she's on the forum regularly but she has posted here before.


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## Lea1229 (Nov 3, 2020)

Fenicks said:


> Jessica Curry is another video game composer of note. She wrote the transcendent score for Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, which placed 8th in the UK's Official Classical Artist Albums Chart before being pulled once they realised it was from a video game. Her choral arrangements are lovely.




Just listened to this album yesterday and it is beautiful, my partner and I really loved it. It's unfortunate that there is so much gatekeeping among the 'authorities' of the classical music world. Why are older forms of music paired with visual entertainment (ballet, opera) deemed 'serious' but videogame music is not - even when by popular consensus it's recognized as being exceptional. Anyway, thanks for contributing to this thread!


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## Michael Carnes (Nov 3, 2020)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Orchestration classes don’t _often_ focus in on contemporary composers, but Kaija Saariaho and Augusta Read Thomas are two of my all time favorites. Add to that Jennifer Higdon, Unsuk Chin, Caroline Shaw... there are quite a few incredible living female composers. Not enough recognition, of course, but therein alone is a wealth of genius to study.


Saariaho and Chin are brilliant orchestrators. But more importantly, they make music of tremendous substance. There are a lot of flashy orchestrators who aren't really saying much. But these two understand that orchestration is in the service of the music.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 4, 2020)

ExponentialAudio said:


> Saariaho and Chin are brilliant orchestrators. But more importantly, they make music of tremendous substance. There are a lot of flashy orchestrators who aren't really saying much. But these two understand that orchestration is in the service of the music.



I'm not sure if this has been posted in another section of this forum, here's a link to Saariaho's wonderful "Laterna Magica" :


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## Fenicks (Nov 7, 2020)

Lea1229 said:


> Just listened to this album yesterday and it is beautiful, my partner and I really loved it. It's unfortunate that there is so much gatekeeping among the 'authorities' of the classical music world. Why are older forms of music paired with visual entertainment (ballet, opera) deemed 'serious' but videogame music is not - even when by popular consensus it's recognized as being exceptional. Anyway, thanks for contributing to this thread!



I'm delighted that you listened to and loved the music of Everybody's Gone to the Rapture! It's such a resonant and emotional album; I'm not ashamed to admit I cry every time I hear it. If you'd like to hear more of Jessica Curry, the first game that she scored was Dear Esther, in which she evoked the austere spirit of Scotland's Hebridean islands. Its ambiance is lonely and haunted compared to Everybody's Gone to the Rapture but it is beautiful in its own way.


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