# Film scoring as a prospective career



## sIR dORT (Feb 9, 2019)

I have a very open-ended question, but would love some insight. First, some context tho (sorry for length):

I'm a high school student, and I've been in the whole composing world for about a year now, along with playing piano for about 5. I'm mostly self-taught in the composing world, as my instructor doesn't have as much experience in the orchestral compositions realm of music. I got started on Garageband, then had a steep upgrade to Ableton Live 9, and have researched researched researched and listened to lots of soundtracks and classical as my orchestral "theory." As I am approaching college and the next stage of life, I'm obviously trying to figure out what I want to do, and film composing is in that mix. There's your background.

Now, as a career, I'm aware that film composing and the music industry in general is VERY competitive. It makes it daunting and motivating at the same time. This sounds unusual for someone my age to say, but in my mid to late twenties, I would ideally like to have enough financial security to support a wife and a family. 

So, here's my question: How hard is it to pursue a career in film scoring while maintaining a manageable degree of financial security to do things like raise a family.

Thanks for any insights!
-David


----------



## X-Bassist (Feb 9, 2019)

sIR dORT said:


> I have a very open-ended question, but would love some insight. First, some context tho (sorry for length):
> 
> I'm a high school student, and I've been in the whole composing world for about a year now, along with playing piano for about 5. I'm mostly self-taught in the composing world, as my instructor doesn't have as much experience in the orchestral compositions realm of music. I got started on Garageband, then had a steep upgrade to Ableton Live 9, and have researched researched researched and listened to lots of soundtracks and classical as my orchestral "theory." As I am approaching college and the next stage of life, I'm obviously trying to figure out what I want to do, and film composing is in that mix. There's your background.
> 
> ...


Find a regular job that pays you enough to support your family, but gives you extra time to compose. Work as a composer nights or weekends to do a series of short films. Check out films schools or websites for students looking for composers. At first this will probably be for free, or very little ($200/film). Some may have more ($500-$750/film), but it may require many weeks of work, and it may be many months between gigs, so that steady gig will be more important at first.

IF you LOVE doing short films, then advance to feature films. Feature films are a bigger commitment and usually involve many solid weeks of work (or months) to make the mix dates, but there are jobs out there that will let you take some time off, or work out a deal with the filmmaker to do it cheap, but you need more time (only independent films can really offer this). Getting a good balance of writing and your day job is important, but time will slip away. Enjoying the time off between projects is important for recharging.

You will probably still not be making enough to support your family. But IF it leads to a bigger job (a larger independent film or studio picture) AND you STILL LOVE IT (including the tight schedules and long nights) THEN you might make enough to save enough to cover you when there is a stretch of nothing.

But take that first step and see. If you have favor with people, the work will find you. If not, you will have that steady job to fall back on to support your family. But there will always be short films for you to jump back in and hone your craft. I've done many films but still do shorts. It get's me working with new filmmakers that might lead to something more, and it gives me a chance to stretch and try genres I don't normally get called to do. Cheers.


----------



## jneebz (Feb 9, 2019)

Good advice right there ^^^^^^^


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Feb 9, 2019)

In short, it is extremely unlikely that you will have a sustainable scoring career by mid twenties. I don't know of anybody who has been in that position without some incredibly fortunate circumstances. And you might notice, there are people struggling to achieve this "dream job" at *ALL* ages.

The reality is, that while you are young, most of your 'jobs' will be working with/for other young people. Students, graduates, friends, online connections, etc. Generally, this demographic does not have enough money to build your career.
The people with money to spend are generally older, more experienced, and will want to work with similarly older and experienced people. Unless you can ask yourself "Why would this director/producer hire me instead of somebody else with ten years experience?" and come up with a solid argument, you will probably be working on the low-to-zero budget projects for a while.
SO.... diversify. From what I gather, you enjoy the tech side of things. That is good. Get good at the tech, networking, mockups, software. Know theory, notation, transcription, orchestration. You'll probably find you can make more money doing these 'peripheral' jobs than you can at scoring films/games while you find your feet. Work on your skills so much that when it is time to actually get the jobs, or an opportunity presents itself, you are more than prepared and won't blow what could potentially be your one big chance.
The more skills you have, the more valuable you are to others (and I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this) opening up opportunities for work as an assistant to composers. It's a job that can keep food on your plate and give you the best environment and resources to keep working towards your ultimate goals.

If you stay out in MN, then that will just make an early career in film scoring even less likely. However, location will not prevent you from earning money and royalties on TV/library music, or even video game scores. There are countless music libraries these days you can pitch your music to, to get placements across TV and advertising. If you think you'd like to go down this route as a way of setting up some 'financial security', get started as early as you can! Coz it'll take a while (couple years) before you start to see the money coming in. Tons of helpful threads on this forum about all that stuff too.

To you, 6 years into the future seems like a long time. But just relax, come up with a 'smart' career plan, not one based on "I need to do this to feel FULFILLED in life!!". You've got plenty of time for that.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 9, 2019)

well.. you have like 10 times more awareness of your future than I was at that age. do kids even do drugs anymore?!

film scoring is not only competitive, id say more like a lottery. you have your million dolars tickets (remote control area) and then the scratch offs (rest of LA) doing normal daily composing on lesser but well known shows. and then the music library cats around the globe.
yes.. for a film score career Los Angeles is a must. there are composers in Europe, India etc but the way its movie business is so scares its equally challenging getting those and if in the EU then its London. and outside of EU then its Los Angeles composers who are from somewhere else. 
And in Los Angeles an average home is 600,000 for a 2 bedroom in places a little further away to where the action is. so rent in Santa Monica can be about $3000-5000. which should be a 1/3 of your income. so looking for about $7k-11k a month income to live there with a wife and a kid.
And to get to score a decent movie is hard. try this.. put a fake gig placement in filmscore website and see not only the hundreds, maybe thousands of submission but also how good they are. (and the odd ball ones). and in LA there is small networks of composers who get pilots and also its a ton of submissions to get one job. And same deal to be an assistant. Not only its a lot, but they are good.

And thats the secret to being a film composer.. not need money. Or come to LA w enough credentials and contacts that you can easily find a job.
. same as directors and producers etc. its the little secret in LA. its money and connections. Most of these guys can afford to do one job for the year, maybe family money or how some old skool composers have mentioned to me, to open a business that pays your bills while you compose. which again, requires money.

so definitely film scoring as a career its an extremely bad idea. its like saying going to start selling cassettes or typewriters. or more likely, its like winning a lottery where you need to work your ass off too much and for very long before maybe winning a lottery 
but if you like the actual craft you can do student projects, the webisode of a friend and that sort stuff. music library as well. but also have a steady job.

maybe check out Ashtons channel. he might be your age or a bit older. he just landed a job in Hans zimmer music library studios. (same studio that now scores the Simpsons). so check his videos and how much he knows and sold himself as a good composer that got noticed to work on one of the most coveted spots for music production, next to remote control and a few select others. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9Z0p8W-IvB_2K_cAQdf7bg
so yes, these comments from me and others will be a total bummer. but that the reality. there is just way to many good composers and not enough outlets to make real money. so no matter your passion and talent, if you don't have the money and time and connections its a very difficult path. but thats one of those little facebook articles I read about what really is happiness, and its something like being happy is not about being happy, which doesn't really exist, but what struggle makes you the most happy or fulfilled.


----------



## sIR dORT (Feb 9, 2019)

Lot to chew on, good stuff! I'm already trying to network a bit, am probably gonna have a chance to connect with a dude who interned at Remote Control - learn how he got there, etc. It's unfortunate that many of the artistic fields out their are so dang competitive, but good to learn how to make (or try to) yourself stand out among the crazy amount of competitors.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 9, 2019)

sIR dORT said:


> Lot to chew on, good stuff! I'm already trying to network a bit, am probably gonna have a chance to connect with a dude who interned at Remote Control - learn how he got there, etc. It's unfortunate that many of the artistic fields out their are so dang competitive, but good to learn how to make (or try to) yourself stand out among the crazy amount of competitors.



remote control has contacts with Berklee college of music to get interns. (maybe other schools as well).


----------



## Chr!s (Feb 9, 2019)

sIR dORT said:


> So, here's my question: How hard is it to pursue a career in film scoring while maintaining a manageable degree of financial security to do things like raise a family.



As others have said: "Very."

Gen Z is giving me hope all the time. Especially with posts like yours because you are actually aware of the reality here.

I'm in my mid 20s. I got my first paid composing gigs when I was a teenager. I actually still get paid to do it every now and then (and currently). 

My #1 advice to anyone younger than myself, and what I would give to my younger self is that you should never, ever, put the pursuit of a music career above having a family.

You have a very limited window of time in your life where doing so is a real viable option and financial security is a must. Actually, life basically ends at 30. You have a very short amount of time to see and do what you want, and have a career, _and_ have a family. Women do not marry men who make less money than they do, and if you're pursuing music that means you're gonna be making a lot less money than many, perhaps most, women these days.

Where am I going with this? Know when to quit. If you find yourself at age 25 - 28, single, still working at Starbucks, just move on. Still do music, but move on.

Because if you don't, you'll wind up being one of these 50+ male catladies. Instead of cats, you'll probably have vintage game consoles though. It will be irreversible regret. This is the part where some old guy with survival bias or a 21-year-old hopeful will tell you not to listen to me, but seriously bro — the most important thing with music is to not put yourself in a position of irreversible regret. Statistically, most failed musicians will become catladies.

Forgoing financial security and a family, etc. just so you can write music for souless corporations (because that's what being a film composer _really boils down to _and is how everyone but composers understand it to be) is _not_ the more virtuous path.

Just don't forget that.


----------



## JT (Feb 9, 2019)

You seem to be quite mature for your age. Keep things in perspective. In college, stay open for any and all music experiences. If being a film composer doesn't pan out quick enough, another opportunity might just land in your lap. Look at Paul & Christian from Spitfire. They initially started making samples because they needed them, look what that turned into. 

Always keep family first.


----------



## Jeremy Gillam (Feb 10, 2019)

Don't listen to anything these people are saying and follow your heart.


----------



## MatFluor (Feb 10, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Actually, life basically ends at 30. You have a very short amount of time to see and do what you want, and have a career, _and_ have a family. Women do not marry men who make less money than they do



Where did you get that from?

I'm 33, starting out in library music and film, have a dayjob (working 80%). Just two weeks ago married a woman who makes more than me (when I go fulltime composing), because we love and support each other.

If having a family with kids is one of your life goals, then I agree to some extend - financial security with a child is a must. But then - marriage is about "being together", financial stability can come in a variety of forms - your dayjib, your wife's job... It's not like you would enslave your wife to the kitchen counter, while you earn the big bucks - that has changed.

Life doesn't end at 30 - yes, you might not have the energy you once had or the endurance to go hardcore-hustling day in and out and attend every prospective party to meet people. But that doesn't mean "life is over". You're in your mid 20s and look at your time in 6 years like that? That's not very healthy.

As said, if having a family with kids is a high priority for you, get stability first, and transition to fulltime music when all is settled. Or have a supportive wife/husband who doesn't care about salary. If you only chase partners that are hidden golddiggers, that's on you 
I don't want kids, neither does my wife. That enables us to way more freedom. We're both not the "having a family" kind of people. And I'm very, very happy at 33. Plus, the money a toddler would need, I get to invest in my career and education.


----------



## Garry (Feb 10, 2019)

My perspective is from a different angle: I'm not in the industry (music is purely a hobby for me), and I'm not your age (I'm more than twice your age). So, my feedback is more generic:

it's so difficult to know or plan what your actual career will be 10 or 20 years ahead: there are so many things that will change in that time, and many are beyond your control. So, having a general destination in mind is helpful, but focussing too specifically on where you'll land isn't wise, because you will too specifically develop the skills for a position that in the end you may not be able to reach, may not exist in the same form by the time you get there, or you may even find may not want
with the general destination sketched in broad strokes, focus instead on developing skills: ideally, those skills should have broad application, and if they can also be applied beyond music, so much the better. Just as an illustrative example, learning to code: I'm not necessarily recommending you do this (entirely depends on your skills/interests in it), but just as an illustration of a transferable skill: being able to program will put you in reach of those who need this skill, which can certainly be of enormous value in music, but (and perhaps more importantly), it is a skill you can apply in other areas, should you need/want to diversify later. Your CV should be replete with examples of transferable skills that you have honed to a high level - you will thank yourself later for this. Some of those skills will turn out to be obsolete later, and you will thank yourself for not having focussed on any single one of them, but made yourself flexible and adaptable to the infinitely unpredictable twists and turns of life.
Ignore the advice of @Jeremy Gillam - this is for romantic comedies, not life decisions. Think about this: what will happen if you follow the advice that he is giving you and it's wrong and what will happen if the advice I am giving you and it's wrong? What are the implications? If I am wrong, you will have a collection of transferable skills that it turns out you didn't need - well, such is the nature of insurance. What I am recommending to you is an insurance policy, and as with all insurance policies, we hope we never need them, but that's not a reason for not having one, and we're very glad of it if we ever do need it. Ok, so what if the advice of @Jeremy Gillam is wrong, then re-read the post from @Chris about catladies and decide which vintage game consoles you'd like to collect! 
Good luck, and well done for seeking out the advice from those who have experience to share. You don't have to make our mistakes if you learn from them.


----------



## D Halgren (Feb 10, 2019)

You can work towards having stability and a family when you're young, and forgo all your dreams to do that, and have it all fall apart. Maybe, then you will have wished that you had followed your dreams. Or, you can follow your dreams, and never get anywhere, and wish that you had done the safe bet. Truth is, either way, it might work out, or it might not, but it's what you want to do that matters. There are many ideas of success, and many chances in life for reinvention.


----------



## MatFluor (Feb 10, 2019)

Short addendum on my thing above:

I agree with Chr!s on the latter part - don't live a regretful life. Don't end up old and grumpy because you made a decision that you will regret.

Look what your priorities are - nobody can guarantee you "making it". But you can raise a family (you don't need much to have a little fun and 9 months later have a small human in your house). But sustaining is the difficult part - be in in buying groceries, getting income in from composing, or working your dayjob.


----------



## Chr!s (Feb 10, 2019)

MatFluor said:


> Where did you get that from?
> 
> I'm 33, starting out in library music and film, have a dayjob (working 80%). Just two weeks ago married a woman who makes more than me (when I go fulltime composing), because we love and support each other.
> 
> ...



Historically, 35 was a common cause of death. Humans aren't meant to live to like 80. Life is finite.

The OP clearly wants a family. Which is what people _should_ want. If he waits 'til he's in his mid 30s or older like Halgren seems to think is a s'well idea, it will be harder for his wife (even if she's young) to get and stay pregnant, the child will be at a significantly increased risk of things like autism because the number of mutations passed on to the baby grows almost exponentially and yes the man is the factor.

Humans are not meant to have babies at 40 and beyond.

As for the money thing. My grandparents had 8 children, grandma was a housewife, grandpa worked whatever job. Their kids never went hungry. But since then, inflation has gone up more than 500% and a man and woman working together struggle to afford just one kid. And like I said, the jury is in on this, and anyone who has met women knows this: The majority of women do not marry men below their financial station, never mind having wanted children with them.

And as we ALL know, most musicians are poor, living paycheck to paycheck for many years.

_These are important considerations for OP and his stated goals_.

The reality is that the OP will more than likely have to prioritize one or the other at some point. That's the state of the world right now. He realizes it.

The ones who DON'T get it though, and are actually offended by these considerations, are unsurprisingly all from the older generations who are now notorious for their selfish, materialistic, hedonistic lifestyles that put guys like me and OP in this situation.

Put simply: At 40, it's not really a big deal to say "I'm gonna look for more music gigs now." It's a much bigger deal to be like "I'm finally gonna settle down and start a family now that I'm a pro musician."


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 10, 2019)

I'll quote Ronnie James Dio: "We're off to the witch, we may never never never come home. But the magic that we're feeling's worth a lifetime!".

Perhaps it's all in what's fulfilling the individual at the current moment. If writing film scores or any other vein makes you feel fulfilled on the inside, than keep doing it. The problem might be one of perspective.

When someone today mentions they're trying to break into music, people in the industry groan...but not for the potential competition. It's because it's a free-for-all out there, both due to sampling technology and (partly) consumer forums like this one. Anyone can slap samples and/or self-made loops together and sound like a composer. And thus the unwashed, musically uneducated Mob Rules.

Let me put it this way: in this age, you can be a mediocre-to-barely-that and still make good money. It's who you know, where you're at during times of opportunity...and how much money you have to back you up. I hear completely recycled (yet seemingly successful) garbage music on the internet, but so many prove to be simply a product of this "new brand of composers"...most of whom have the bucks for a top agent, producer, etc.

Without the abovementioned, elite agency backing the composer, film scoring is a very sketchy occupation to aspire to. I personally, totally lucked out by using well known names to sing for my old Rock/Classic Metal album...that was my key. I scooped up their fans and buzz was created, the kind that surprisingly stayed loyal to me even when I dropped Rock in favor of film scores, opera and concert music back in 2006. Uh, I should clarify: film scores in my situation means odd, mucho-independent-and-often-collegiate films and trailers that basically help me pay the rent (most of the time).

I wish everyone here to realize their dreams. However, at the expense of sounding like a gorecrow, I so hope everyone with that specific aspiration makes sure to listen prudently to their Superego when making serious plans to become a film score composer, or any composer. Reality has to be a part of the dream (even if to simply abnegate), otherwise one could more than conceivably just write and dream about being a famous film composer (and there's nothing wrong with that, either).

Or one could forego any dubious dreams of serious jobs in the field, happily play around with the tools, and hang out here with credit card ready at all times.

More succinctly, if you find fulfillment in the very act of scoring (which you'll know for sure whenever you write with absolutely no expectations of financial gain) then that's a fine journey to take all by itself.

This is all just me conjecturing, taking a Devil's Advocate position when necessary. As I mentioned, I would LOVE to see all here realize their dreams.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Feb 10, 2019)

How I wish VI control and online advice was a thing when I was younger. That's something the OP has onside.

At 40, I'm fully aware the the film composer gig is a lost cause for me. Not that I was really trying, if I'm brutally honest with myself.

Seeing as we're talking about family/work balance - I've got the first locked down nicely I think. I'm very lucky to have an amazing wife and kids. I do scratch a living making music too, but having the family means I've had to be realistic about the work. Gone are the days I could do endless amounts of "spec" work for free. Instead, I write production music. It's not the epic orchestral stuff I'd like to write, but it pays the bills.

There are only so many hours in the day and you can't do everything. It applies outside music too. I know many professionals with families and high flying careers. But those folks only get to see their kids for an hour in the evenings and have to farm out childcare to someone else.

So, it's a balance. To answer the OP - maybe go balls out right out of the gate on your composing career whilst you're still young and can work with other up and coming folk. Then at least you know you tried when the chance was available.
Good luck!


----------



## MatFluor (Feb 10, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Historically, 35 was a common cause of death. Humans aren't meant to live to like 80. Life is finite.
> 
> The OP clearly wants a family. Which is what people _should_ want. If he waits 'til he's in his mid 30s or older like Halgren seems to think is a s'well idea, it will be harder for his wife (even if she's young) to get and stay pregnant, the child will be at a significantly increased risk of things like autism because the number of mutations passed on to the baby grows almost exponentially and yes the man is the factor.
> 
> ...



I don't agree on the "anyone who has met women knows this: The majority of women do not marry men below their financial station, never mind having wanted children with them."

All the other things, I agree - as you also said, yes, life is finite. Yes, humans in older times didn't last as long as we do - physical peak is at 25 roughly. But that doesn't mean that you decay instantly. You can be very healthy and more fit with 40 than some specimen with 22 

Also agree, the later a pregnancy, the more difficult (or genetically error-prone) it gets. Sperm quality also goes down, but that's not as critical usually.

I also agree on your last paragraph - if having a family with kids is something you want, it might not be the right decision to to that after one has made a career, but before. On the other hand, that sounds like a perfect recipe for the typical midlife-crisis men who completely change their career because they think "they missed something".

So, overall, I agree with you, to get that straight. I'm just not agreeing on some points, but yes to the overall implications.

To OP:
It's hard. Pursuing a career has it's challenges. Maintaining financial stability is also much a question of your financial situation now and "from home" - meaning if you finish college with debt (which seems the usual case in the US), that's already starting off with one leg bound to the ground. So, in my personal opinion, getting stable first, build savings and then go for it. In that time - since you want to raise a family - you do exactly that. A marriage is a mutual thing - you support your partner, and your partner supports you. One month she gets the buns in, the other month you. as soon as there's a child, that can change - since suddenly there's a third member demanding food, attention and other things.
Life isn't over then, it just shifts. Know what your priorities are in life in general, and then look at how you can achieve those goals.


----------



## Marko Zirkovich (Feb 10, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Historically, 35 was a common cause of death. Humans aren't meant to live to like 80. Life is finite.



Sorry, but that's not entirely true. Yes, life is finite but even historically there's no inherent death switch killing off humans at 35. The crappy life expectancy (especially in the middle ages) was a result of the atrocious living conditions with poor sanitation, malnourishment, diseases, wars, etc.

In the ancient world, child mortality sucked. But if they survived their childhood, childbirth, and military service, Romans could expect to live as long as we do today. Just look at the way they had structured their cursus honorum. The lowest rung on that career path required a minimum age of 28 (later 31) to even have the chance for election. 43 was the minimum age for the Consulate. Those requirements would have not made sense with humans only living to age 35.


----------



## Chr!s (Feb 10, 2019)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> Sorry, but that's not entirely true. Yes, life is finite but even historically there's no inherent death switch killing off humans at 35. The crappy life expectancy (especially in the middle ages) was a result of the atrocious living conditions with poor sanitation, malnourishment, diseases, wars, etc.
> 
> In the ancient world, child mortality sucked. But if they survived their childhood, childbirth, and military service, Romans could expect to live as long as we do today. Just look at the way they had structured their cursus honorum. The lowest rung on that career path required a minimum age of 28 (later 31) to even have the chance for election. 43 was the minimum age for the Consulate. Those requirements would have not made sense with humans only living to age 35.



You get the point


----------



## FriFlo (Feb 10, 2019)

I am trying to make this short: If you have enough passion for music in general, so that working as a musician (also, when you won't get payed well and do not make it as a composer) is a given for you, then you should try to learn and study music. Wether you make it as a composer - nobody here can tell you! Most people are in fact still trying to figure it out. 
If you want to be as sure as it is possible to be able to get a job that pays for the family, your future car and a semi-detached house, it is possible better to persue another career. Not as sexy as "follow your dream"! I am sorry. But probably more honest, given how you asked the question.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 10, 2019)

sIR dORT said:


> I have a very open-ended question, but would love some insight. First, some context tho (sorry for length):
> 
> I'm a high school student, and I've been in the whole composing world for about a year now, along with playing piano for about 5. I'm mostly self-taught in the composing world, as my instructor doesn't have as much experience in the orchestral compositions realm of music. I got started on Garageband, then had a steep upgrade to Ableton Live 9, and have researched researched researched and listened to lots of soundtracks and classical as my orchestral "theory." As I am approaching college and the next stage of life, I'm obviously trying to figure out what I want to do, and film composing is in that mix. There's your background.
> 
> ...



For someone your age, it is best to think of getting involved in the 'Music Industry' rather than think of becoming a film composer straight away. 

The best thing to do is to get involved in skill based music jobs. If you can orchestrate, help with music editing, MIDI mock-ups, MIDI transfer and working with notation software etc, you can probably have a stable job with composers and/or labels, production houses. Eventually, you will get to compose as well. 

Try to get involved in the sphere of music and then see where it takes you.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 10, 2019)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> Sorry, but that's not entirely true. Yes, life is finite but even historically there's no inherent death switch killing off humans at 30



Duuude, Logan's Run (Goldsmith) ESSENTIAL!

But, interesting ideas.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 10, 2019)

Write music all the time. Make friends with robots/A.I. Be bold, be open, genuine, and by all means listen more than you talk.


----------



## Marko Zirkovich (Feb 10, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Duuude, Logan's Run (Goldsmith) ESSENTIAL!
> 
> But, interesting ideas.



I stand corrected. Can't argue with Goldsmith.


----------



## bachader (Feb 10, 2019)

If we put aside the discussions about the age, I think Chris gives the most honest advice to a musician candidate. Yes it is harsh but unfortunately true. I dont think more than 5% of musicians are lucky to pursue a rewarding music career. Many amateur musicians around most likely dreamed about being a popular musician at some point. Yes music business is competitive but unfortunately not in the sense of olympics competitions where you succeed if you are faster or stronger. The business is unfair and depend highly on your contacts and business network. Thats why gsilbers call it lottery. Many mediocre level composers are getting hired thanks ti their contacts. The minimum requirements to be an orchestral composers are much lower today than old times when you should be able to write orchestrations with pencil and paper. Great composers like JW, Debney refer to this point subtlely in their interviews. Check out how H.Zimmer started out. Check out how Silvestri started out. Giacchino was a Disney producer before getting into music business. They were all hired by top directors for big budget movies without an impressive career at that time. They are al great composers. The question is, will you be as lucky as them?


----------



## wst3 (Feb 10, 2019)

I usually skip over threads like this as I did take an alternate path, and my regrets are very few, in fact it is more about curiosity than regret.

There are all sorts of general rules which apply to one degree or another, but you have to understand that none of them apply directly to your situation. It's like statistics - statistically speaking one might assume a tossed coin will fall heads half the time and tails the other half, but in fact each toss is subject to the 50:50 rule, but a sequence of tosses is not.

I'm nearing 60, I've worked in all phases of electronic hardware, software, and systems in the areas of audio and communications, including data communications. It's been a helluva great ride. I've also worked in many aspects of the music business, including operating my own for-hire studio, working as a composer, arranger (not as much as I'd like) and player in sessions, pit orchestras, and of course combos.

Every once in a while I wonder what my life would look like if I'd followed music as a career from the start. It is, without a doubt, my second love, and always has been (ok, there were times when it moved into first<G>!) But I like my life for the most part, and I wouldn't be where I am had I taken a different fork at any point in the past.

One of my more unusual choices was to marry at 40 and start a family. Some here seem to think that's impossible, but it isn't. If I could have met Judi two years earlier I probably would have married her then (not sure she'd have married me though.) Didn't happen that way. I do wish it had, since she died after a nasty three year battle with breast cancer, it's been 15 months and the kids and I are still trying to find our way forward.

Would I have skipped over marriage or a family if I had known what was coming? I doubt it, although that is a question one can never really answer.

Am I sorry that my kids will likely only have me (best guess) for another 20-30 years? Sorry? No. A little sad? yes.

The thing is, I'm nearly certain that had I married in my 20s or even 30s I'd have been a terrible husband and father. I was very focused on my twin careers of technology and music. I worked constantly, and I suspect I was far too selfish to be a good partner. By the time I met Judi I had matured a bit, and I was ready to settle down.

In fact I left a job that promised great financial rewards because it required more than 50% travel. At the time we were engaged I was on planes more than I was home. I did not choose to live that way, and I am forever grateful I was wise enough to make the change, even if it meant some financial hardships along the way. I can't imagine regretting spending as much time as I could with her. That would be a regret!

If you have the passion for music it won't ever go away - trust me on that. I know several folks who either pursued music as a side line or returned to it after they became financially stable. Will they ever be A-List Hollywood composers? Doubtful, but you never know. Are they happy writing music for local production companies and theatres and advertisers? Yes, every single one of them is happy making at least part of their living as a musician.

Do I know a subset of the community that are outliers? Could be, but one can only measure from one's perspective (ask Einstein about relativity<G>!)

All this to say:

life is short, even if you live to be 100 that isn't a lot of time
you have more options than you can imagine, regret is not a good option
study music! you will be studying it for the rest of you life most likely, might as well start now!
starting a family remains my proudest and fondest achievement. I would not trade it for anything.
waiting to start a family has advantages and disadvantages - same as almost every other choice you will face. You have to accept that.
waiting to start a career in music (or anything really) has advantages and disadvantages. Same goes...
And that is the ONLY concrete advice I will offer. (probably still overstepping!)

You need to listen to your heart! You can listen to others but you must remember that they are providing advice from their perspective - it is honest, it is well intended, but it may not fit your situation.

I miss my wife terribly, but I am forever grateful that we had 18 years together. I won't say I'm grateful for the trials we faced, but I am grateful that we faced them together.

I don't know if any of that will make sense, or ring true, or even be of any value, since it is offered through my unique lens, but I figured I should say something.

I wish you the best of good fortune no matter what path you choose.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Feb 10, 2019)

Career? Wife? Family?

WTF?!?!

You're still in high school and you are worried about all of that?

My friend, go live life. All of those things can wait. I'd say hold off for as long as possible. If you want to do music, keep working at it. Don't worry about a career. Just get your skills up and have fun at it. Once it becomes a "career", you will be looking for a way out. 

Don't be so anxious to grow up. There is a difference between irresponsible and not responsible. Keep your responsibilities minimal for as long as you can. Don't be in a race to get stuck in a rut!


----------



## sIR dORT (Feb 10, 2019)

How did we get from music as a career to life expectancy.


----------



## wst3 (Feb 10, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Career? Wife? Family?
> 
> WTF?!?!
> 
> ...



That is some good advice - for some people, not necesarilly for everyone.

Growing up I had a friend who knew he wanted to be a medical doctor from somewhere around junior high school. He is nearing retirement now, and for the most part has loved every minute of it. He, like many of his generation, is a little put off by some of the changes in healthcare delivery in the US, but he helps people every day, and he is happy. I think he is the exception.

Most of us do well to leave as many avenues open as possible. Which fits into your advice, to a point.

I would argue that the part about getting stuck in a rut might be a bit heavy handed. But the rest makes sense.


----------



## wst3 (Feb 10, 2019)

sIR dORT said:


> How did we get from music as a career to life expectancy.


Maybe because there are some folks who have been around for a couple decades??? It can change one's perspective.


----------



## JT (Feb 10, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Career? Wife? Family?
> 
> WTF?!?!
> 
> You're still in high school and you are worried about all of that?


We're all different. I met my wife in high school. Back then, I knew who I wanted to spend my life with. For me, everything else was secondary. That was 48 years ago, we're still together and we cherish the years we have together.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 10, 2019)

JT said:


> We're all different. I met my wife in high school. Back then, I knew who I wanted to spend my life with. For me, everything else was secondary. That was 48 years ago, we're still together and we cherish the years we have together.



That's sensational, wish I had that.


----------



## sIR dORT (Feb 10, 2019)

Good stuff guys. Good to hear some input like this. I do really enjoy writing and/or scoring music, and few things make me happier. The idea of doing music part time with a stable job on the side (in my case, something business related) makes logical sense, but there's a lot of time for me to see where I end up. I'm excited to see if this'll be a fun and cool hobby or a full time job, but still, I think I always enjoy it.


----------



## brek (Feb 11, 2019)

It's been mentioned already, but don't discount writing music for games (indie/casual), commercials, cable TV, museums, libraries, etc, etc. We can all come up with our reasons why we never made it in the "big leagues," but making a career in the minor leagues ain't so bad. 

If you you really, really only want to do film scores, a move to LA is essential. Figure that part out first.


----------



## Gerbil (Feb 11, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> As others have said: "Very."
> 
> Gen Z is giving me hope all the time. Especially with posts like yours because you are actually aware of the reality here.
> 
> ...



You're in your mid 20s and you're saying life ends at 30. You genuinely have a lot to learn.


----------



## mikeh-375 (Feb 11, 2019)

I'll add some thoughts from my experience as a pro writing for media...it's fucking hard work and not without stress on family and persona. If you are serious, you will have no choice but to develop a thick skin, a belief in yourself and an ability to work fast and to a high standard. As in life, there are no guarantees whatsoever, but you can help yourself by also developing good networking skills (mine sucked, but I had a good agent).
Of prime importance is to learn your craft, preferably with theory, but if you do it as a youtube student, you'd better be good in order to get your head above the digital sea and not drown.
Oh, you'll also need to be able deflect your partners ire as you cancel yet another meal, cinema, party,theatre, dinner with friends, weekend plans, sex, (well make a special effort for that one)


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 11, 2019)

brek said:


> If you you really, really only want to do film scores, a move to LA is essential. Figure that part out first.



I'm not sure that's applicable today, as I hear about remote/any location scores getting done pretty regularly. In fact, you've probably heard at least a couple that were at least mostly that. I do _*everything*_ like that, and use an Eastern European orchestra to record my stuff (when necessary).

The most money I've ever made was on a campy (but major) motion picture trailer (the only one of two I've ever done that wasn't independently produced/directed). All of it was done from my computer and the talented folks in Eastern Europe. I never met personally anyone working on the movie. And I had a blow out party the day I got my commission check


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 11, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> I'll add some thoughts from my experience as a pro writing for media...it's fucking hard work and not without stress on family and persona. If you are serious, you will have no choice but to develop a thick skin, a belief in yourself and an ability to work fast and to a high standard. As in life, there are no guarantees whatsoever, but you can help yourself by also developing good networking skills (mine sucked, but I had a good agent).
> Of prime importance is to learn your craft, preferably with theory, but if you do it as a youtube student, you'd better be good in order to get your head above the digital sea and not drown.
> Oh, you'll also need to be able deflect your partners ire as you cancel yet another meal, cinema, party,theatre, dinner with friends, weekend plans, sex, (well make a special effort for that one)



Great post, Mike. Replace "fingers" with "pencils" in this next quote, please:

_"Music composition is a lonely endeavor which involves sitting in a room and wearing out pencils". _*Alfred Newman*


----------



## mikeh-375 (Feb 11, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Great post, Mike. Replace "fingers" with "pencils" in this next quote, please:
> 
> _"Music composition is a lonely endeavor which involves sitting in a room and wearing out pencils". _*Alfred Newman*



Lol, I'd also add wearing out patience, goodwill and tolerance within media work.
Was it Newman who also had big bonfire parties after he'd done a film score? The bonfire was for the ritual burning of the score. If it wasn't him, then it was someone, either way, how's that for a disparaging attitude to the art of scoring, or, is it the best way to be, not believing the hype etc.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 11, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Lol, I'd also add wearing out patience, goodwill and tolerance within media work.
> Was it Newman who also had big bonfire parties after he'd done a film score? The bonfire was for the ritual burning of the score. If it wasn't him, then it was someone, either way, how's that for a disparaging attitude to the art of scoring, or, is it the best way to be, not believing the hype etc.



That's an interesting story, Mike...but I've loved the Golden age of scoring most of my life and never heard that (it could be true, of course). Newman was deservedly proud of such works as Song of Bernadette, The Robe (I mean, the guy won 9 Oscars, and it wasn't for doing something he hated doing). I can't imagine him burning those, or any of his, scores (especially since back then, when there was mostly only carbon paper copying). Why would he burn a score, especially when carbon copying was such a messy (ultimately frustrating) pain in zee derriere? No, this sounds like pure Hollywood Rumour.

The only peccadillo I've read about this Movie Music Giant is that he (like Bernard) wanted to be a conductor, not composer. In fact, he'd get pretty bummed out whenever the studio assigned someone else to conduct a score he liked.


----------



## mikeh-375 (Feb 11, 2019)

Fair enough. I'll see if I can find that tale, I'm sure I read it in a book I have. Wow 9 oscars, I didn't know that, what a superb achievement.
Did you read about the Gone with the Wind prank played on Steiner? 2 other composers _'borrowed' _the score, secretly recorded it with the resident band and somehow had it played on the radio whilst the 3 of them where playing cards. Steiner had been bragging about his wonderful theme to them and went white when he heard it, especially after the other 2 said it was such a popular tune that had been playing for a while...those crazy kids. Apologies to the OP for the divergence.


----------



## Kent (Feb 11, 2019)

Once you disabuse yourself of the notion that the music industry, particularly the film music industry, is a competition, you'll already be halfway there. 

In other words - this is not a meritocracy, it's a nepotic jungle.

If you want to succeed (or even just survive) put yourself in situations where you can know and - much more importantly - be known.

You may hear "It's not what you know, it's who you know." This is false. As my old music business professor used to say: "It's not who you know, it's who knows you."

It's good that you're thinking of this when you are. What's the next step?


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 11, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Fair enough. I'll see if I can find that tale, I'm sure I read it in a book I have. Wow 9 oscars, I didn't know that, what a superb achievement.
> Did you read about the Gone with the Wind prank played on Steiner? 2 other composers _'borrowed' _the score, secretly recorded it with the resident band and somehow had it played on the radio whilst the 3 of them where playing cards. Steiner had been bragging about his wonderful theme to them and went white when he heard it, especially after the other 2 said it was such a popular tune that had been playing for a while...those crazy kids. Apologies to the OP for the divergence.



You know Mike I was thinking about that burning anecdote and that actually doesn't sound farfetched to me now. Alfred obviously wasn't a fan of composing in general, so (even if in roughest copy effigy) that makes the idea both believable and really cool (or hot in this case get it, burn hot BWA! ….


sorry I'm so corny!)


----------



## sIR dORT (Feb 11, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> I'll add some thoughts from my experience as a pro writing for media...it's fucking hard work and not without stress on family and persona. If you are serious, you will have no choice but to develop a thick skin, a belief in yourself and an ability to work fast and to a high standard. As in life, there are no guarantees whatsoever, but you can help yourself by also developing good networking skills (mine sucked, but I had a good agent).
> Of prime importance is to learn your craft, preferably with theory, but if you do it as a youtube student, you'd better be good in order to get your head above the digital sea and not drown.
> Oh, you'll also need to be able deflect your partners ire as you cancel yet another meal, cinema, party,theatre, dinner with friends, weekend plans, sex, (well make a special effort for that one)


Interesting about the digital stuff. I would love to learn the theory too, but the digital is the most accessible right now. And with the things that I would have to skip to get ahead, that's crossed my mind. One of the harder parts of paving your way in an industry.


----------



## Beluga (Feb 11, 2019)

Being a professional musician is not a good field to make sure to be able to sustain a family from the mid twenties on.

It really is not.

Couldn't be much worse. Sorry.

It is a field that has a lot of uncertainty. Like a lot. Things you can't control, things that work against you. And even if, say, you'd have a good chance to achieve this stability today, which you don't, there is no guarantee, none at all, it will still be this way in 10 years.

OK, fine. The best way to go for financial stability is probably teaching. But let's have a look at scoring anyway:

First of all, there is luck. Independently of how talented you are and what effort you put into your career, you will need a lot of good luck. You need to be there, the right moment, the right place, the right way. You arrive an hour later, it may be too late. You arrive a week before, it may be too early. There is no way you can control this. Your career will depend highly on this random luck factor.

Secondly, even if things work out, you have no guarantee they continue to do so. Have that talented uprising director you work with? Life is good, the income is streaming in? There are a thousand reasons for this to not last. Unfortunately. You have no security of employment whatsoever. You might even find yourself in a position to sustain your family in your mid twenties from music composition alone just to realize you can't do so any more in your mid-thirties. 

And beware..

..there are wolves out there ready to devour you. Ready to rip you apart to take your place or more often to give your place to someone closer to them than you are. It's ferocious, it's deadly, it's unforgiving. These people will work against you, night and day, 7 days a week. But there is a slight chance you might still win against them. What you can't win against is the system crushing the composer slowly and draining every last little drop of blood out of him. Understand PROs (performance rights organisations), collecting money on behalf of the composer but not distributing it fairly. Music libraries that throw hundreds of thousands of music tracks on the market and undercut everyone out there, producers that do not accept satisfying music budgets and always find that guy who wants to start out and work for free. Middlemen that will give you peanuts from the budget they collect from your music and throw you to the garbage afterwards. Other composers and sound guys that will rip you off and copy your music you have produced for them to avoid paying you anything. Anyway, the music system is rotten to the core and trying to survive in there is tough.

Don't say I didn't warn you. 

On the bright side, don't worry too much about earning more than your wife. A penniless musician is still more romantic than a banker. 

Of course with luck, determination and talent you can still make it, but what I am trying to say is that there is no guarantee whatsoever that this will work out by your mid twenties.

Good luck to you anyway!


----------



## sIR dORT (Feb 11, 2019)

Beluga said:


> Being a professional musician is not a good field to make sure to be able to sustain a family from the mid twenties on.
> 
> It really is not.
> 
> ...


I'd rather you be honest then sugarcoat it. Thanks for the insight. Any thoughts about connections? I'm guessing most composers are smart enough to realize that you probably need a connection to get going, so if I have some, let's say, does that not necessarily help my case a ton?


----------



## Beluga (Feb 11, 2019)

sIR dORT said:


> I'd rather you be honest then sugarcoat it. Thanks for the insight. Any thoughts about connections? I'm guessing most composers are smart enough to realize that you probably need a connection to get going, so if I have some, let's say, does that not necessarily help my case a ton?



Well, yes, connections are about the only thing that gets you going. Without connections you can't do anything. If you don't have any you have to make them. The best situation unfortunately is the other way around: have the connection first and then try to figure out how to write music. :D I honestly think it's easier this way. Many people will rather work with a personal friend or a family member who does not know what midi is than to give anyone else a chance.

But what I wanted to say is that even if you manage to get work and deliver, it's still very hard to get by on the long run. 

I think, you personally should ask yourself what is more important to you, financial stability or scoring. If it's stability maybe consider teaching music if you'd rather be dead than not to be a composer than go for the scoring job.


----------



## sIR dORT (Feb 11, 2019)

Beluga said:


> Well, yes, connections are about the only thing that gets you going. Without connections you can't do anything. If you don't have any you have to make them. The best situation unfortunately is the other way around: have the connection first and then try to figure out how to write music. :D I honestly think it's easier this way. Many people will rather work with a personal friend or a family member who does not know what midi is than to give anyone else a chance.
> 
> But what I wanted to say is that even if you manage to get work and deliver, it's still very hard to get by on the long run.
> 
> I think, you personally should ask yourself what is more important to you, financial stability or scoring. If it's stability maybe consider teaching music if you'd rather be dead than not to be a composer than go for the scoring job.


That's the hard part. I have time to see tho, which is nice, and already a few potential connections (1 actual one). Why can't music just be easier to break into XD (a question that's probably been asked countless times)


----------



## Beluga (Feb 11, 2019)

sIR dORT said:


> That's the hard part. I have time to see tho, which is nice, and already a few potential connections (1 actual one). Why can't music just be easier to break into XD (a question that's probably been asked countless times)



Well, good luck to you!


----------



## GtrString (Feb 11, 2019)

If you are pre-family and pre-career, you have nothing to lose. At your age you are able to take the biggest risks without taking a hit for it. Now is the time to pursue your wildest dreams.

Just follow your passion, and everything will fall into place. You may succeed, and regret. You may fail, and not regret. Anything can happen, and no matter what, if you follow your passion with a passion, you will end up the right place for you. Its a shoot for Mars and hit the Moon type of path.

If you don’t do that, you will never feel right, and become a bald, fat nervous wreck from creative tension. Eventually, the dark side will eat you alive.

Passion is an unbeatable human driving force, that can guide you safely through life. Lose it and you’ll have no fuc*ing beacon to show you the right way.

Stop reflecting yourself into passive paralysis, go for it. NOW!


----------



## prodigalson (Feb 11, 2019)

There's a lot of great advice here that I would only be belabouring if I were to give my actual opinions. 

One thing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned enough is to forget this idea that you HAVE to support your wife and that you absolutely have to be earning more than her in order to be considered a match. That is such old-fashioned sexist nonsense its actually difficult for me to even type. 

If you are lucky enough to meet someone you want to (and should) marry in your 20's and she wants to marry you, she will do it regardless of whether or not you make more than her and you guys will figure it out. Of course, it's unlikely someone will want to marry you if you are a waste of space, on unemployment (and not willing to work) and just play video games all day but ambition, passion and talent is more attractive than how much money is coming in when you meet.


----------



## JohnG (Feb 11, 2019)

There is quite an assembly here of good advice and zany stuff. Not that the zany stuff is all wrong either.

At the moment, most "big" movies are scored by what -- a dozen composers? two dozen? And every one of those people arrived in that seat via a different route.

Conclusion: there is no path. And really, for major movies, no obvious means of getting on the A list, no matter what your demo reel sounds like. With budgets at $200 million and up, why would any sane person risk a picture on a newcomer?

*What Should You Do?*

If my son were to want to write music I think I would steer him toward games and "other." They have plenty of money to hire players and the working conditions are far more endurable. Still a lot of stress, but endurable. Besides, the gaming community, though certainly susceptible to big names from the movie side, still hire guys with something unusual to say, musically.

I sympathise with wanting to be "just like big-name-composer..." but it's tough. Los Angeles may be the best place to be but arriving here with little money and minimal/no credits (by which I mean no _studio_ films and no _network_ television and no substitute, like a hit indie film score) seems like a pretty terrible prospect.

Also worth asking yourself whether you actually have anything that differentiates you from everybody else.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 12, 2019)

JohnG said:


> There is quite an assembly here of good advice and zany stuff. Not that the zany stuff is all wrong either.
> 
> At the moment, most "big" movies are scored by what -- a dozen composers? two dozen? And every one of those people arrived in that seat via a different route.
> 
> ...



Great post, John.


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 12, 2019)

I never had a car that cost more than $1,500 or paid more than $1,000 a month in rent until I was in my mid-thirties.

It can be a slow ride to the comfort zone, even when everything works out in your favor.

Or, in the immortal words of the late Bon Scott of AC/DC, who put it much more eloquently and succinctly:

"It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock 'n' roll."


----------



## Kent (Feb 12, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> I never had a car that cost more than $1,500 or paid more than $1,000 a month in rent until I was in my mid-thirties.


That’s about $2350 in auto and $1600 in rent in today’s money. Even so, both a little more difficult these days since real estate (and rent) has been skyrocketing and Cash for Clunkers ate away the bulk of the used cars in that price category.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Feb 12, 2019)

douggibson said:


> Ok....... so now can I smoke weed and watch porn ?



Yes, please proceed.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 12, 2019)

douggibson said:


> Ok....... so now can I smoke weed and watch porn ?



You mean...you _*stopped*_ during all that? 








(in a small, embarrassed voice): uhhh, were _*we*_ supposed to stop, too?


----------



## ghostnote (Feb 12, 2019)

Rule Nr. 1: Everytime somebody says things like "Listen to your Heart!", "Do what YOU want!" or "Your music is good, you'll make it!" - Ignore it. Seriously, this forum is full of people who want to hear what they want to hear and they'll give every post a like that has this blind energy behind it. Also: Don't listen to people who will say you'll never make it. The truth lies somewhere in between and the only one who can decide if you are good enough is you, only you.

Truth is also that you'll most likely need a Plan B. Even if it works out to get some jobs during your career, there might be months where you have to eat ramen and if you have a family, then they'll have to go trough this, too. Think about it this way: How many Dentists do you know who play guitar?

The big point here is to know your own skills. Only 10% of people living on this earth are aware of themselves. Beeing emotional intelligent enough to see where other fail and where and why they can succeed. Even if you are one of those 10% (which I can't know) then you still have to figure out your way trough this mess. This needs a load of personality and skillsets, like charisma, high rate of adaptiveness, beeing highly competitive, which not every person can combine.

Get yourselve a mirror and ask yourself: Can I do this? Because you won't if you just think you are good. Maybe you're good indeed, but this won't bring you into the place where you can make a decent living out of it.


----------

