# Preamp noise in portable recorders



## Pier (Apr 25, 2022)

I want to get into recording noises in my house and maybe in the street for experimenting with sound design in PhasePlant, experimental convolution, and that sort of thing.

So I've been looking into portable recorders. For about $250 I can get a Tascam DR 60D mkII. It's an old device with about -120dBu EIN. How bad is this in practice? Is this a no-go for getting good results? Would I need to use RX? I know pro devices are closer to -130dBu (Mixpre, etc).

The other thing that bothers me is that for the same price of the Tascam I could get a Motu M2 which has significantly better preamps and ADDA. I wouldn't be able to record in the street but I think I could get by with a laptop around the house. OTOH I'm not sure how practical this would be compared to having a dedicated portable recorder.

Hopefully @timprebble will be able to chime in.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 25, 2022)

I believe that the bigger difference would be recording in 96kHz rather than 48.

My Zoom Hn4 Pro has a - 120 Equivalent Input Noise, but I don't have experience of using better. I think the bigger issue for recording outside is using the right microphone. If you don't want to record ambience, a shotgun microphone, or a pair of them, might be a good choice. Also, levalier and contact mics.

I'm also hoping that Tim helps us out here!


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## Pier (Apr 25, 2022)

Yeah I will be getting my contact mic (VS-3CAP) today or tomorrow.

If I like it I will probably be getting a second one to be able to make stereo captures. Although my current interface only has 1 preamp so that's why I'm considering either upgrading my interface to a Motu M2 or getting a portable recorder.

I also plan on getting some matched small condensers down the line. Experimental impulses in stereo sound better and have a certain _je ne sais quoi_.


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## ptram (Apr 25, 2022)

Something that I've been doing, but without going too further to say I've really tested it, was to use small pencil capsules from Audio Technica, powered by an external battery or from the internal 9V power supply of my Tascam DR-100 mk1.

I later replaced it with a much better DR-100 mk3, with a more powerful battery and 48V phantom power, but I never tried doing ambient recordings again. The built-in mics are however so good, that external ones would be less useful.

What small external mics are still useful for, is recording without being seen. Keep the recorder in a jacket pocket or a backpack, and hide the mics in a hat. People will think you are listening to some music.

Paolo


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 25, 2022)

ptram said:


> Something that I've been doing, but without going too further to see I've really tested it, was to use small pencil capsules from Audio Technica, powered by an external battery or from the internal 9V power supply of my Tascam D-100 mk1.
> 
> I later replaced it with a much better D-100 mk3, with a more powerful battery and 48V phantom power, but I never tried doing ambient recordings again. The built-in mics are however so good, that external ones would be less useful.
> 
> ...



If they only thought I was recording audio, I think they'd be less suspicious of me...

Thanks for the tips.


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## Pier (Apr 25, 2022)

ptram said:


> The built-in mics are however so good, that external ones would be less useful.


They'd better be!

For the cost of the DR100 you can get a Zoom F3 and a pair of Rode NT5.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 25, 2022)

This may be of interest.


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 25, 2022)

I would not buy that Tascam now. For 350 you can get the Zoom F3 which is significantly better in just about every category. Trust me, if you're at all serious about this the Tascam will become a paperweight very quickly when you upgrade. Zoom F series is very good for the price.

(Source: have way too much money wrapped up in Zaxcom, Sound Devices, and Zoom recorders)


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## Pier (Apr 25, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> For 350 you can get the Zoom F3 which is significantly better in just about every category.


I agree. Unfortunately, with shipping and taxes to Mexico the F3 gets to $450 which is almost double what I expected to spend on this.

I think I will just get the Motu M2 and restrict myself to stuff around the house for now.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 25, 2022)

Pier said:


> I agree. Unfortunately, with shipping and taxes to Mexico the F3 gets to $450 which is almost double what I expected to spend on this.
> 
> I think I will just get the Motu M2 and restrict myself to stuff around the house for now.



But then you'd never know the excruciating joy of standing knee deep in a pond in the dead of night, recording the dying screams of a sonorous frog.


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## Pier (Apr 25, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> But then you'd never know the excruciating joy of standing knee deep in a pond in the dead of night, recording the dying screams of a sonorous frog.


There's a chance I can use the M2 connected straight to my phone. It wouldn't be ideal but it should be usable for the occasional trip down the street or a visit to the pond in the dead of night.

I bought an OTG cable to test my current interface with my phone and see how that goes.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 25, 2022)

Pier said:


> There's a chance I can use the M2 connected straight to my phone. It wouldn't be ideal but it should be usable for the occasional trip down the street or a visit to the pond in the dead of night.
> 
> I bought an OTG cable to test my current interface with my phone and see how that goes.



It could work. Phones are powerful computers these days.

I hear dark alleys have a lot of great acoustics. It's worth exploring.


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## timprebble (Apr 25, 2022)

try reading this on my blog - it has mine & many peoples advice in the comments:




__





Gear for starting out field recording – Music of Sound






www.musicofsound.co.nz





For me I'd rather have second hand gear with better spec than new gear with worse specs.
But I think long term, I want gear to last.

I can't offer much advice beyond that, as the only recorders I have used in recent times are Sound Devices. But I bet I can find a secondhand SD 722 or 702 for less than a new handheld recorder, and the SD722 or 702 can record 24/192 and have very, very clean preamps with proper XLR mic inputs, phantom power and using Sony L1 batteries is capable of pro work.
I own 722x2, 744, 788T and a MixPre10-II.
My first 722 would be 10-15 years old and still works now as well as it did when I first got it.
The only reason I have more recorders is for more channels, and using a little CLINk cable I can wordclock sync all of my recorders, so its an easy way to add channels (renting/borrowing more recorders) I also have a Sony D100 and its good, but nothing like a 722.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 25, 2022)

Pier said:


> I want to get into recording noises in my house and maybe in the street for experimenting with sound design in PhasePlant, experimental convolution, and that sort of thing.
> 
> So I've been looking into portable recorders. For about $250 I can get a Tascam DR 60D mkII. It's an old device with about -120dBu EIN. How bad is this in practice? Is this a no-go for getting good results? Would I need to use RX? I know pro devices are closer to -130dBu (Mixpre, etc).
> 
> ...


Pier, -120dBu is ridiculously quiet! Totally inaudible in the real world. The mic's self-noise is going to dwarf that, and so is the ambient noise.

For perspective, dB is a log scale. 1dB is about the minimum anyone can hear (caveats aside). 130dB is like standing next to a jet engine.


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## Pier (Apr 25, 2022)

Thanks @timprebble for the advice.

Since I'm limited on my budget I will prioritize sound quality over portability.

@Nick Batzdorf yes I know! But you'll never get all that dynamic range though. I think the main issue is when boosting quiet signals or with heavy post processing.


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## liquidlino (Apr 25, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah I will be getting my contact mic (VS-3CAP) today or tomorrow.
> 
> If I like it I will probably be getting a second one to be able to make stereo captures. Although my current interface only has 1 preamp so that's why I'm considering either upgrading my interface to a Motu M2 or getting a portable recorder.
> 
> I also plan on getting some matched small condensers down the line. Experimental impulses in stereo sound better and have a certain _je ne sais quoi_.


I have M2. Is powered off its USB connection to computer, no seperate power supply required. So no reason why you couldnt have laptop, M2 in backpack and cable to mic on tripod for field recording.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 25, 2022)

Pier said:


> Thanks @timprebble for the advice.
> 
> Since I'm limited on my budget I will prioritize sound quality over portability.
> 
> @Nick Batzdorf yes I know! But you'll never get all that dynamic range though. I think the main issue is when boosting quiet signals or with heavy post processing.



Noise isn't generally an issue with any modern digital recorders (even if they're cheap audio interfaces). 

And you're right, you're not going to get that dynamic range! You wouldn't want it if you were - you'd be compressing the signal like crazy.


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## Pier (Apr 25, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Noise isn't generally an issue with any modern digital recorders (even if they're cheap audio interfaces).


It really depends on what you're recording.

Musical instruments are generally quite loud, but if you're recording something relatively quiet you really want the quietest preamps budget allows. I will be using contact mics and such which AFAIK are not very sensitive.

See this table I found in a field recording blog:






I recorded bands (years ago) but have very little experience with field recording/sound design. I don't have a good sense of the results I can expect with the Tascam recorder I mentioned.


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## timprebble (Apr 25, 2022)

Pier said:


> It really depends on what you're recording.



It totally does.

"Noise isn't generally an issue with any modern digital recorders (even if they're cheap audio interfaces)."

This is a completely false statement sorry. Take any handheld recorder, turn up the gain to max and you will hear self noise (of mic & preamp) I absolutely guarantee it. But the real world issue is SIGNAL TO NOISE. Record a snare drum hit or a piano note and the signal is so loud (relative to self noise) its no problem to record it cleanly. Whereas the gain required to cleanly capture a very quiet sound (eg move your arm. The sound your clothing makes is recorded for foley on every film) the signal is barely audible, and the gain required to make it audible is vast.

Using a pair of Sennheiser MKH8040 microphones (which have the lowest self noise of any mic I have ever used) recording into MixPre10 32bit 192kHz (which has the best preamps I have ever used) and in some situations managing self noise is still absolutely essential. So with approx $10k of equipment, noise is still an issue that has to be managed.


Two thoughts on this:

1. specs are not everything. Lived experience counts for more. Every recorder & mic has limitations, no matter how much you spend. The skill is to make great recordings with the gear. A skilled photographer can take great photos with a crappy camera. An inexperienced photographer wont necessarily take better photos by buying a pro camera.. No matter what you get, you will find its limits, sooner or later. You learn from this and decide if upgrades are worth it for your use case.


2. better mics and cleaner preamps sometimes reveal more 'noise' aka unwanted real world noise. A crappy mic is less sensitive so it wont notice or hear eg a lawnmower 2 blocks away, whereas an excellent mic will. If I use an older but excellent MKH70 shotgun mic outdoors I hear less insects than if I use the MKH8040, which are flat to 50kHz. Using a Sennheiser MKH8040 with MixPre I can crank so much gain that I hear things on headphones you would never even notice with your naked human hearing.


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## dannthr (Apr 25, 2022)

Your pick-up pattern and off-axis rejection can play a huge role in unwanted noise polluting your recordings. In which case you also need to consider the spatial aspect of the environmental noise and the staging of your source and mic.

I did experiment with trying to capture noise profiles of mic/pre combinations by recording snippets of the mic tucked into many, many layers of noise baffling in an attempt to use Rx later to strip a little noise out of the recordings. I had mixed results, but mostly because Rx is a risk when you introduce artifacts and its non-linearities will mess with any careful considerations you've made to phase coherency.


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## BenjaminO (Apr 25, 2022)

timprebble said:


> "Noise isn't generally an issue with any modern digital recorders (even if they're cheap audio interfaces)."
> 
> This is a completely false statement sorry. Take any handheld recorder, turn up the gain to max and you will hear self noise (of mic & preamp) I absolutely guarantee it. But the real world issue is SIGNAL TO NOISE. Record a snare drum hit or a piano note and the signal is so loud (relative to self noise) its no problem to record it cleanly. Whereas the gain required to cleanly capture a very quiet sound (eg move your arm. The sound your clothing makes is recorded for foley on every film) the signal is barely audible, and the gain required to make it audible is vast.


I second this. I've had a Zoom H5 recorder for a couple of years and the biggest issue has always been self-noise. I usually like to record quiet sounds outdoors (eg. birds singing) and getting ridiculously close to every sound source isn't always possible. Cranking the gain introduces a lot of self-noise to the recording and then it's crappy. Also, I don't have a proper mic to connect to it, so I use the "built-in" XYH-5 capsule or the SSH-6 capsule (purchased separately).


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## timprebble (Apr 25, 2022)

Some self noise comparisons here (and no surprises, better results cost more)






Recorder Tests - Avisoft Bioacoustics


Avisoft Bioacoustics Hardware and software for investigating animal sound communication: ultrasound microphones, integrated acoustic data acquisition systems, recording and sound analysis software optimized for applications in bioacoustics.




www.avisoft.com




Noise levels at the maximum available gain settings (except where indicated otherwise)

More results at the link but these are the top 16 of what they tested





​


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## cedricm (Apr 25, 2022)

If you want me to publish test sounds, I can.

I'm using an ancient Tascam DR-100. Although I'm afraid I've let it fall on concrete the last time I recorded birds, because of the wind.

At least for bird recordings in the city, the biggest enemy isn't self noise, it's city noise.

Waves' Clarity Vx does quite an amazing job removing the noise, and so do the free ERA plugins.

Izotope RX is top notch, but in my experience, requires a lot more work.


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## HCMarkus (Apr 26, 2022)

Large Diaphragm Mics? 

Most accurate mic: Small Diaphragm. Low mass. responsive. iPhone mic is a great, albeit inexpensive, example. 

Quietest Mic: Large Diaphragm. Bigger diaphragm moves more electrons, so if it is a well-designed condensor, S/N can be better, no?


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## timprebble (Apr 26, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Large Diaphragm Mics?
> 
> Most accurate mic: Small Diaphragm. Low mass. responsive. iPhone mic is a great, albeit inexpensive, example.
> 
> Quietest Mic: Large Diaphragm. Bigger diaphragm moves more electrons, so if it is a well-designed condensor, S/N can be better, no?



Most accurate mic has a flat freq response across the widest possible frequency range. Many contenders for that role, most are larger diaphram - Sennheiser, Schoeps, Sanken, Neumann, DPA etc. Regardless great results are possible from lavalier omni mics like dpa4060 or the more affordable usi pro or the even more affordable clippy. While tiny lavaliers cannot deliver the results of larger diaphragm mics, they still do an amazingly good job, and are small enough to put inside instruments, props etc...


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## MarcusD (Apr 26, 2022)

Zoom H6 and F6 user here.

The H6 self noise can be a little much, its fine for recording louder sources that cover the noise floor, for e.g crowds, traffic, rain, rivers etc... most of the time noise reduction can get rid the hiss. However anything that requires detail or needs to be recorded in a quiet environment, it's no good IMO. 

The F6 on the other hand, impossible to clip. If a recording looks clipped in post, you can just lower the gain and that's it. Magic. The noise floor is very low, it can use NP-F550 batteries (as well as AA batteries) 6 XLR inputs (no 1/4 inputs unfortunately) very small form factor and uses USB-C. Picked up a second hand for one around £200 from a videographer. Always worth looking around, and videographers are usually selling good gear cheap.


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## Pier (Apr 26, 2022)

timprebble said:


> Some self noise comparisons here (and no surprises, better results cost more)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been checking this table a lot lately.

The Tascam 70D supposedly has the same preamps as the 60D (the HDDA preamps).

I'm almost convinced to get the Motu M2 and then use this app with my phone for the occasional recording where I cannot use a laptop. But still, having a dedicated portable recorder is a very attractive idea.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 26, 2022)

timprebble said:


> It totally does.
> 
> "Noise isn't generally an issue with any modern digital recorders (even if they're cheap audio interfaces)."
> 
> This is a completely false statement sorry. Take any handheld recorder, turn up the gain to max and you will hear self noise (of mic & preamp) I absolutely guarantee it. But the real world issue is SIGNAL TO NOISE.



On a scale of 1-10, how irritating is it when someone says the same thing you just said and then accuses you of being completely wrong - and then people like the post? 

The point is that Pier was worried about a spec that's all but irrelevant as an isolated factor. It may be an indication of the overall quality of the recorder, but -120dB would almost be an anechoic chamber.

The mic preamps are going to have 60dB of gain if you're lucky, right? Running any analog equipment at its maximum is going to result in noise. It's not the mic preamps or the mic (whether built in or not) that have -120dB of noise!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 26, 2022)

By the way, I use a Blue Mikey Digital for recording interviews, and noise isn't a problem with it even from a distance. It's a $50 thing that plugs into the Lightning port on an iPhone or iPad.


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## Pier (Apr 26, 2022)

Off topic but since I mentioned using a phone as recorder in this thread...

Today I received an OTG Y cable and tried to use my Audient iD4 with my Android phone. It was an absolute failure.

First problem is there's not enough power reaching the iD4 as it starts turning on and off very quickly. I've tried different power adapters and a USB power bank but I think these are just charging the phone. I fear the Audient is being powered by the phone battery which probably doesn't provide enough juice.

To test my theory I used a powered USB hub between the Audient and the OTG cable. This solved the first problem, but it wouldn't allow me to be mobile since I'd need a power outlet.

The second problem is that Android is not routing audio to the Audient. It's like Android recognizes the audio interface briefly and then decides it's not working. Supposedly the iD4 is class compliant but now I'm not so sure. I don't know if it will be any different with the M2.

So I either get the M2 and use a laptop or get the Tascam 60D which would have lower sound quality overall.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Off topic but since I mentioned using a phone as recorder in this thread...
> 
> Today I received an OTG Y cable and tried to use my Audient iD4 with my Android phone. It was an absolute failure.
> 
> ...



You mostly want to record at home. And with a laptop you can still record outside for short periods in some places, if ever you really want to, can't you?


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 26, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The point is that Pier was worried about a spec that's all but irrelevant as an isolated factor. It may be an indication of the overall quality of the recorder, but -120dB would almost be an anechoic chamber.


Yeah making a purchasing decision based on a preamp's posted noise spec would be misguided. You have to use them (and push them a lot) to see what they're actually capable of.

Which is why I'd recommend Zoom F Series to just about anybody. In the field you're not going to be able to tell the difference between them and a Sound Devices recorder (or probably not in studio without extremely careful testing). Reading the specs on these isn't going to tell you anything other than you get what you pay for.

If you have your heart set on field recording just take the hit and get a real recorder instead of the laptop situation. Because what's going to happen is you're going to get annoyed with the laptop and buy a recorder anyway


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 26, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Yeah making a purchasing decision based on a preamp's posted noise spec would be misguided. You have to use them (and push them a lot) to see what they're actually capable of


Moreover, -120dB is not a preamp spec!


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## el-bo (Apr 26, 2022)

Get yourself a cheap Zoom (Needs a 3.5mm jack), and a pair of Clippy Em272)






Zoom H4n Pro - Any tips?


I have a pro-tip too. Avoid other humans like the plague. This works in all facets of life, not just recording things.




vi-control.net





If getting from micbooster proves too difficult for you, Soundprofessionals in th U.S will likey have very similar low-noise options.


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## Pier (Apr 26, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Moreover, -120dB is not a preamp spec!


Huh?


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## Pier (Apr 26, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Because what's going to happen is you're going to get annoyed with the laptop and buy a recorder anyway


Basically I'm trying to decide whether I'd be more annoyed by using a laptop or the lower quality of the Tascam 😂


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## el-bo (Apr 26, 2022)

Here's another example of the em272 and Zoom h2n. I think they also work with the Zoom h1, which means a very portable setup for a total cost of under 200 quid


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## el-bo (Apr 26, 2022)




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## Bee_Abney (Apr 26, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Here's another example of the em272 and Zoom h2n. I think they also work with the Zoom h1, which means a very portable setup for a total cost of under 200 quid




But with all that screexhy, whistly interference, I can barely make out dialogue!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Huh?


I take it back - it could be EIN without anything plugged in.


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## timprebble (Apr 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Basically I'm trying to decide whether I'd more annoyed by using a laptop or the lower quality of the Tascam 😂


Just make sure you run a test with your laptop eg recording stereo for 20 minutes. Do the fans come on? Hows battery life when powering an interface and phantom power to mics and continuously writing audio, all from the internal battery? is there any software or settings that will interrupt your recording? (eg HD and/or screen go to sleep, or laptop asks to join wifi etc) How is it to use a laptop in bright light? In the rain? How long does it take to get set up & recording? eg from hiking with everything securely stashed, to actually recording audio? One great advantage of eg a handheld recorder is you can be recording within seconds.


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## Pier (Apr 26, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Get yourself a cheap Zoom (Needs a 3.5mm jack), and a pair of Clippy Em272)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I'll probably get a Clippy at some point. It's fantastic for the price.


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## el-bo (Apr 26, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> But with all that screexhy, whistly interference, I can barely make out dialogue!


Didn't miss much. Just some convo (Something about sorting out the rego during the arvo), between a rando drongo and his Sheila, during their smoko. The interference was infinitely more interesting


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## Pier (Apr 26, 2022)

timprebble said:


> Just make sure you run a test with your laptop eg recording stereo for 20 minutes. Do the fans come on? Hows battery life when powering an interface and phantom power to mics and continuously writing audio, all from the internal battery? is there any software or settings that will interrupt your recording? (eg HD and/or screen go to sleep, or laptop asks to join wifi etc) How is it to use a laptop in bright light? In the rain? How long does it take to get set up & recording? eg from hiking with everything securely stashed, to actually recording audio? One great advantage of eg a handheld recorder is you can be recording within seconds.


Yeah... I know.

Even when recording in the house, a handheld recorder would be so much quicker to use.

I found this video which compares the 60D with the Zoom F6. In terms of noise they seem to be quite similar. The F6 preamp + AD seems to be better to my ears but it's not really night and day.



Edit:

In the video, he's using a Rode NTG3 which has a self noise of 13dBA.


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## Pier (May 2, 2022)

So I ended getting a Motu M4. Fantastic device so far!

It doesn't work with my Android phone either. Same problem with the power and even when using a powered USB hub, Android doesn't recognize it. Maybe it's time to buy a new iPad with a USB-C connection


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## Bee_Abney (May 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> So I ended getting a Motu M4. Fantastic device so far!
> 
> It doesn't work with my Android phone either. Same problem with the power and even when using a powered USB hub, Android doesn't recognize it. Maybe it's time to buy a new iPad with a USB-C connection



I wish you much noise; but very specific noise, isolated against a background of silence!


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## Bee_Abney (May 2, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I wish you much noise; but very specific noise, isolated against a background of silence!


By the way Pier, a conversation came up in the midst of a Meldaproductions thread, discussing how Melda's EQs (including the free one) have a harmonics option tuned in semi-tones. This makes it quite easy to take an untuned noise, add gain to the right frequencies, and get a tuned noise.

It starts at post #36 and is mostly Living Fossil teaching me about it. 






Do you use any Melda Production Plugins ?


Nope. Likely would if not started long ago with _ NI- KxxU, Plugin Alliance, Valhalla, few odds & ends. Used lotsa Waves 'til extensively 'wup'd' OTH _ not close to project, pro level needs as many /most here. Appreciate having /updating Melda Prod free versions just in case ..... 🤷🏻‍♂️




vi-control.net


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## Pier (May 2, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> By the way Pier, a conversation came up in the midst of a Meldaproductions thread, discussing how Melda's EQs (including the free one) have a harmonics option tuned in semi-tones. This makes it quite easy to take an untuned noise, add gain to the right frequencies, and get a tuned noise.
> 
> It starts at post #36 and is mostly Living Fossil teaching me about it.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah I do that all the time in Zebra and PhasePlant.

The trick is to match the frequency cutoff of the filter with the midi note. Typically in Zebra you set cutoff to 1 and keytracking to the max value.

You can check with a tuner plugin (Cubase has one) how close you are to the played notes.

You'd need a band pass filter or a filter with enough resonance that you can distinguish a tone. It's not necessary a filter that self oscillates but that's interesting to explore along with filter ping. Filter ping is when the resonance is so high that the filter it's just about to self oscillate and produces like a short feedback tone.

The comb filter in Zebra is also another massively deep rabbit hole to explore regarding giving a tone to noise or pretty much anything.


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## Bee_Abney (May 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh yeah I do that all the time in Zebra and PhasePlant.
> 
> The trick is to match the frequency cutoff of the filter with the midi note. Typically in Zebra you set cutoff to 1 and keytracking to the max value.
> 
> ...


I've done similar things in Falcon too - or with a plugin following a sample instrument. It does offer some nice opportunities. Despite using a number of Melda plugins though, I hadn't realise that the EQ made doing this so easy. Shade can do this sort of thing, though you need to know the Hz of the notes and put them in yourself.

Don't tell anyone - entirely confidential - but Zebra sounds better doing this sort of thing than either Melda or UVI products!


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## Pier (May 3, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Don't tell anyone - entirely confidential - but Zebra sounds better doing this sort of thing than either Melda or UVI products!


Don't worry I won't tell anyone 

Now in all seriousness, Zebra might not be as powerful or modern-sounding as Falcon or the Melda stuff, but it does have a very elegant and organic sound that I haven't been able to find anywhere else. I'm pretty sure this is the reason it blends so well with orchestral stuff and HZ keeps using it exclusively.


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## Bee_Abney (May 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Don't worry I won't tell anyone
> 
> Now in all seriousness, Zebra might not be as powerful or modern-sounding as Falcon or the Melda stuff, but it does have a very elegant and organic sound that I haven't been able to find anywhere else. I'm pretty sure this is the reason it blends so well with orchestral stuff and HZ keeps using it exclusively.


I agree that there is no other synth I would rather bury beneath a hundred tracks of orchestral samples.

Of course I don't mean that! Other than synth sounds built out of orchestral samples, Zebra2 does seem to be the best synth for sound of a piece, rather than working against, an orchestra. It's pretty marvellous in that way.


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## clisma (Dec 12, 2022)

Tagging on to this thread to see if anyone has experience with either the Tascam Portacapture X8 or any other low self-noise handheld recorder?

The X8 is listed at -127dBu and comes with internal mics and a total weight of just under 500 grams. As I’m looking to record in difficult to access locations, as well as several canyons this winter, hiking in for many miles requires as light a device as I can get.

Suggestions are very welcome! Looking to spend a MX of $400.


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## Pier (Dec 12, 2022)

clisma said:


> Tagging on to this thread to see if anyone has experience with either the Tascam Portacapture X8 or any other low self-noise handheld recorder?
> 
> The X8 is listed at -127dBu and comes with internal mics and a total weight of just under 500 grams. As I’m looking to record in difficult to access locations, as well as several canyons this winter, hiking in for many miles requires as light a device as I can get.


I don't have any experience with it but many portable recorders are more noisy when using the internal mic. I don't know if that's the case with the X8 but if low noise is important you should check that.

The Zoom F3 is much more portable than the X8 although you will need to add your own mics.


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## clisma (Dec 12, 2022)

Right, thanks for that. Appreciate the perspective.


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## clisma (Dec 13, 2022)

So are there any suggestions for external microphones that don't break the bank (likely to pair with a Zoom F3)? I know about the clippy EM172 but I'm in the US, not UK, and am wanting to receive the mics before leaving on my trip on the 20th. So something that is available locally would be tremendously useful. I'm researching as much as I can but there's a lot to learn!


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## Pier (Dec 13, 2022)

clisma said:


> So are there any suggestions for external microphones that don't break the bank (likely to pair with a Zoom F3)? I know about the clippy EM172 but I'm in the US, not UK, and am wanting to receive the mics before leaving on my trip on the 20th. So something that is available locally would be tremendously useful. I'm researching as much as I can but there's a lot to learn!


What type of mic(s) do you want? What's your budget?


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## clisma (Dec 13, 2022)

I’m looking to record quiet nature ambience as well as reflections. Would be great to keep it under $200.


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