# Done with apple - new DAW PC build



## edhamilton (Dec 10, 2020)

Done with apple (first mac was a plus in 87).
No trust that they will deliver a mac pro with 256g ram or more at a price point that would make any sense.

So cubase + windows.

The build -
Intel Core i9-10980XE 3 GHz 18-Core Processor
Gigabyte X299X DESIGNARE 10G EATX LGA2066 Motherboard
256 g ram G.Skill Trident Z Royal 256 GB (8 x 32 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory
Fractal Design Define 7 XL ATX Full Tower Case

Looks to come it at under $4k and should kill my nmacpro bin.

Thoughts?

Really appreciate your input.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 10, 2020)

BUILD IT. Wow, the 14 core 7940X in May 2018 was $1499 and I thought I had a deal at $1199. Now 18 cores with a CPUBenchmark score of 34000 is $999. FYI, mine scores at 26000. The ram amount will make you upgrade proof for quite a while. Richard Ames recently did a video showing that once you get to 8 cores and above, it's all pretty much the same. So 18 cores will definitely make you future proof. When I edit video in Adobe Premiere, those 14 cores I have really come into play when I render.

I'd pop https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-500GB-Internal-Gaming-MZ-V8P500B/dp/B08GL575DB (this guy) on the Mobo as your C Drive. You can do it differently, I like a dedicated OS/app drive that doesn't hold any libraries. The Pro series has faster WRITE speed, good for the OS drive. Non-pro drives usually read fast but writes are slower. But for samples, not an issue!


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## colony nofi (Dec 10, 2020)

I'll preface Looks a very good rig. 

I'm very interested in how it all goes for you.

As @PaulieDC pointed out (and Richard Ames's video discussed) DAW's don't generally scale well above 8 cores. It comes down to the core-zero problem, which is down to how real-time audio generally works.

Now, I'm a proponent for many-core systems, and have disagreed with Richard on some things along the way (he'd argue I believe, that many-core systems are just not needed for DAWs. I have some use cases described elsewhere on the board where multi cores really came into their own. We had a 10940X in here for a project which was incredible (128GB ram) - but we only saw benefits with very specific workflows. Strangely it beat out the 10960X in a number of more general audio/VI/kontakt tests that we did quickly. And killed any standard desktop system we tried. Maybe we were bumping into "many core" issues (that DAWBench seems to have solved with its reaper based tests....)

However, it was only when mixing in surround / starting to use some programs externally to nuendo (SPAT revolution being a big one) that we could really start pushing the multi-cores to their potential. Otherwise, we were coming up against the core-zero issues before even 8 cores were at 70%.)
Some of this could have been that we were using a borrowed system and as such I didn't spend long researching / trying stuff out... it *worked* damn well for the project we were on 

This is why I'm personally looking at Zen3 Threadripper. Zen3 Ryzen looks awesome - and if the threadrippers maintain their single core advantages, then these will be the multi-core chips for HEDT workstations for a while I suspect. Just look at the last Gen Ryzen 2 3950 beating out the 10980XE in the DAWBench DSP tests (but lagging in kontakt polyphony tests)

The zerocore situation (its not a problem per-se) is not something that is going to go away anytime soon. It is the nature of realtime audio. It is why in a number of circumstances, the 8 core macpro dustbins would outperform the 12 core versions significantly on kontakt and omnisphere tests. Chip designs will need to change. Indeed, Zen3 looks to be the first architecture in quite a while to move towards a design that really benefits DAWS. 

If you build your system, I'd be interested in throwing a few test sessions your way to try them compared to the 10940... I think we can still get access to it (its now at a visual fx studio)

So yeah - long story short. Look forward to hearing how it works out for you! And hopefully one day Q2 next year I'll have a threadripper (or next gen Epyc) rig I can really put up against yours for some benchmarking fun.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 11, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Done with apple (first mac was a plus in 87).
> No trust that they will deliver a mac pro with 256g ram or more at a price point that would make any sense.
> 
> So cubase + windows.
> ...



That looks pretty sweet! Although I'll never go back to Windows as my primary machine, I'm considering a similar setup to replace my aging slave PC. A similar build, plus a new M1 Mac Mini (as a master) is quite tempting.


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## rmak (Dec 11, 2020)

Do you guys think that computer parts like the ones posted by the OP will be on sale around Christmas?


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## edhamilton (Dec 11, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> That looks pretty sweet! Although I'll never go back to Windows as my primary machine, I'm considering a similar setup to replace my aging slave PC. A similar build, plus a new M1 Mac Mini (as a master) is quite tempting.


Curious as to why you wouldn't go back to windows for your daw machine.
I have a few friends that moved to windows and since once you open the daw, the OS is barely an issue.
I'm reluctant to try this as I've only suffered with windows for slave machines but I can't imagine what apple is going to charge for an apple silicon mac pro with a ton of ram!
Was even tempted to get a refurbed 16 core mac pro and just hang on for 5 years and ignore the M chips - but this PC spec is half the price for the same performance ..........

appreciate your thoughts.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 11, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Curious as to why you wouldn't go back to windows for your daw machine.
> I have a few friends that moved to windows and since once you open the daw, the OS is barely an issue.
> I'm reluctant to try this as I've only suffered with windows for slave machines but I can't imagine what apple is going to charge for an apple silicon mac pro with a ton of ram!
> Was even tempted to get a refurbed 16 core mac pro and just hang on for 5 years and ignore the M chips - but this PC spec is half the price for the same performance ..........
> ...



Well, I'm so deep into using Logic now. I have Cubase 10 on my slave PC, which I also love and use occasionally, but I have soooooo many projects on Logic. I also love my Apogee Element interface. And honestly, I just dig the Apple simplicity and workflow, it has been so solid and reliable for the past seven years (unlike my previous 20+ years Windows experience). I often ponder going back, but really have no reason to.


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## Lindon (Dec 11, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Done with apple (first mac was a plus in 87).
> No trust that they will deliver a mac pro with 256g ram or more at a price point that would make any sense.
> 
> So cubase + windows.
> ...


Might be worth thinking about those new AMD CPU's as they leave the current Intel ones in the dust...


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## Solarsentinel (Dec 11, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Done with apple (first mac was a plus in 87).
> No trust that they will deliver a mac pro with 256g ram or more at a price point that would make any sense.
> 
> So cubase + windows.
> ...



If you can wait for stocks i recommand you the new AMD Ryzen 5950X. It's a beast.


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## GtrString (Dec 11, 2020)

Im in the same spot. Will leave Mac’s behind and go with a top spec’ed Windows pc in a few weeks. Apple software lately has been buggy, and Im not accepting that for that kind of money. That was the only thing that set Apple OS apart from Windows, and now they have lost it imo. Unflexible hardware, unreasonable ram and storage prices. They do nothing for musicians/ producers. Nope, non, niet.

Im looking at the same cpu, but on an asus x299 motherboard with an asus thunderbolt ex3 pci card for my Quantum 2626 interface. Low latency 3000 Kingston ram (128gb), and a silent cabinet for less than 3k!


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Done with apple (first mac was a plus in 87).
> No trust that they will deliver a mac pro with 256g ram or more at a price point that would make any sense.
> 
> So cubase + windows.
> ...


I say go for it,but don't expect that the grass is any greener on the other side. 


GtrString said:


> Im in the same spot. Will leave Mac’s behind and go with a top spec’ed Windows pc in a few weeks. Apple software lately has been buggy, and Im not accepting that for that kind of money. That was the only thing that set Apple OS apart from Windows, and now they have lost it imo. Unflexible hardware, unreasonable ram and storage prices. They do nothing for musicians/ producers. Nope, non, niet.
> 
> Im looking at the same cpu, but on an asus x299 motherboard with an asus thunderbolt ex3 pci card for my Quantum 2626 interface. Low latency 3000 Kingston ram (128gb), and a silent cabinet.


I got the Quantum 2626 and it rocks. If you can get a motherboard with built in thunderbolt 3 capabilities. In doing my research using a card is hit or miss. Some people are doing great with it some people are having issues with it. I think the key is to make absolutely sure your bios is proven to work with the card you plan on getting. 

Getting an AMD mobo with built in Thunderbolt though proved to be more of a hurdle than I was able to surmount. So went Intel. But, that was in October. I haven't checked lately.


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## GtrString (Dec 11, 2020)

José Herring said:


> I say go for it,but don't expect that the grass is any greener on the other side.
> 
> I got the Quantum 2626 and it rocks. If you can get a motherboard with built in thunderbolt 3 capabilities. In doing my research using a card is hit or miss. Some people are doing great with it some people are having issues with it. I think the key is to make absolutely sure your bios is proven to work with the card you plan on getting.
> 
> Getting an AMD mobo with built in Thunderbolt though proved to be more of a hurdle than I was able to surmount. So when Intel. But, that was in October. I haven't checked lately.



Absolutely true, thats why Im going safe with Intel and Asus mb & thunderbolt card. Proven combination and no tb adapter needed!


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## chimuelo (Dec 11, 2020)

Best way to cool an NVMe is to have both sides ventilated.
Controllers get hot, but for C Drive I never had a problem.
In case you go with NVMe M.2 though this is a nifty option.

Im using the M.2 slot as a way to connect to the Intel 905P NVMe SSD.
So they’re really a life saver if you ever use high seek/low latency Optane devices.










Sabrent NVMe M.2 to PCI-Express Adapter Card Review


So what do you do if you want more M.2 storage? Get an NVMe M.2 to PCI-Express adapter card of course! Today we are checking out one from Sabrent!




thinkcomputers.org


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## Fidelity (Dec 11, 2020)

Build looks good, but also overkill. What're you running that's so CPU hungry? I'm personally happy with my 8-core 4800h laptop with 40gb ram for under a grand...


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## PaulieDC (Dec 11, 2020)

rmak said:


> Do you guys think that computer parts like the ones posted by the OP will be on sale around Christmas?


Go to www.newegg.com and sign up for their eBlast emails, they put great deals in those a lot.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 11, 2020)

colony nofi said:


> I'll preface Looks a very good rig.
> 
> I'm very interested in how it all goes for you.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the time and energy that Richard puts into those tests, but, I got one of those MIDI packs with a completed session using OT libraries and it runs really well at a 1024 buffer. So when I bring up Task manager and flip on Performance Monitor, I see 28 threads from my 14-code and at least 20 of them, if not more, and post activity while the piece is playing. I don't know about others but I have zero regrets buying the 14 core i9-7940X, because Cubase utilities it better than many will say. And now Studio One v5.1 does too, HUGE improvement.

I would say start planting 12/14/16/18 cores on youir mobo, the game is changing.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 11, 2020)

Fidelity said:


> Build looks good, but also overkill. What're you running that's so CPU hungry? I'm personally happy with my 8-core 4800h laptop with 40gb ram for under a grand...



It's not overkill if you're running big orchestral templates.


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## Fidelity (Dec 11, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> It's not overkill if you're running big orchestral templates.



Must be pretty big. Nothing wrong with overkill, anyways, but I'd personally take that extra cash and get more music gear


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## Symfoniq (Dec 11, 2020)

Mac user since 1988 here.

I agree with a previous comment: The grass isn’t greener on Windows. Did that for a few years when Apple lost its way with the Mac between 2013 and 2019. I love building PCs, but don’t love using them for the kinds of work I do. Can you get work done? Sure. Did I like it? Not really. Windows 10 is very solid, but it’s not polished if your yardstick is macOS.

Now is an interesting time to leave Apple, with potentially some of the biggest performance jumps in a (human) generation on the horizon. Apple Silicon is exceeding all expectations. I don’t expect Intel or AMD to have an answer in the short term. There is also rumor of a half-height Mac Pro with Apple Silicon. These are exciting times in MacWorld. Reference intended.


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## Tim_Wells (Dec 11, 2020)

Symfoniq said:


> Now is an interesting time to leave Apple, with potentially some of the biggest performance jumps in a (human) generation on the horizon. Apple Silicon is exceeding all expectations. I don’t expect Intel or AMD to have an answer in the short term. There is also rumor of a half-height Mac Pro with Apple Silicon. These are exciting times in MacWorld. Reference intended.


Aren't any performance improvements with Apple's ARM chips pretty much speculation and possibly hype at this point? Has anything been proven in real world tests, especially as it relates to DAW performance? 

I'm asking, not making a statement.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Absolutely true, thats why Im going safe with Intel and Asus mb & thunderbolt card. Proven combination.


Great. Did you consider a board like the ASUS Pro ACe 1200 or ASUS Pro creator that has built in thunderbolt 3? No fuss.


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## Toecutter (Dec 11, 2020)

The only way to go beyond 256GB RAM in PC land using a single processor is with Threadripper?


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## Symfoniq (Dec 11, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> Aren't any performance improvements with Apple's ARM chips pretty much speculation and possibly hype at this point?



Not at all. The cores in the M1 are already posting eye-opening performance numbers, sometimes even when running non-native code.

And you have to remember: This is probably the slowest Apple Silicon that will ever ship in a Mac. Nevertheless, it’s still posting single-core numbers no other Mac can touch, even with power budgets many times higher. In other words, the “worst-case” scenario is staggeringly good. And there is nothing sufficiently unique about a DAW workload for the Apple Silicon’s advantage to get lost in translation.

If you are technically inclined, AnandTech did a deep-dive on the M1, which is highly recommended reading. It goes a long way to explaining why these SOCs are so exciting. But if you just want the money quote, here it is:



> Apple claims the M1 to be the fastest CPU in the world. Given our data on the A14, beating all of Intel’s designs, and just falling short of AMD’s newest Zen3 chips – a higher clocked Firestorm above 3GHz, the 50% larger L2 cache, and an unleashed TDP, we can certainly believe Apple and the M1 to be able to achieve that claim.
> 
> This moment has been brewing for years now, and the new Apple Silicon is both shocking, but also very much expected. In the coming weeks we’ll be trying to get our hands on the new hardware and verify Apple’s claims.
> 
> Intel has stagnated itself out of the market, and has lost a major customer today. AMD has shown lots of progress lately, however it’ll be incredibly hard to catch up to Apple’s power efficiency. If Apple’s performance trajectory continues at this pace, the x86 performance crown might never be regained.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 11, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> Aren't any performance improvements with Apple's ARM chips pretty much speculation and possibly hype at this point? Has anything been proven in real world tests, especially as it relates to DAW performance?
> 
> I'm asking, not making a statement.



There’s another thread that has a lot of reviews and tests, it is so far proving to be a winner. I’m excited to see what comes out next, as the first generation machines seem to be killing it already.


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## GtrString (Dec 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Great. Did you consider a board like the ASUS Pro ACe 1200 or ASUS Pro creator that has built in thunderbolt 3? No fuss.



Definitely looks better with integrated TB3. Have you seen any reports on these, or have experiences of your own?


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## Tim_Wells (Dec 12, 2020)

Symfoniq said:


> If you are technically inclined, AnandTech did a deep-dive on the M1, which is highly recommended reading. It goes a long way to explaining why these SOCs are so exciting. But if you just want the money quote, here it is:


Thanks for sharing that. It does look exciting and very promising. But all I'm seeing are press releases, Apple's internal lab specs, and theories of why the new architecture may be better. 

I truly hope it's all they say it is and more. But personally, I wouldn't base my current DAW buying decisions on it. Especially considering how powerful the available CPUs are.


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## telecode101 (Dec 12, 2020)

@OP it's too early for M1 and you don't want to be that sucker in a year from now that just bought an M1 last year and a newer faster one just got released for the same price. Just go with the i9 PC quote. Looks powerful.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 12, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> Thanks for sharing that. It does look exciting and very promising. But all I'm seeing are press releases, Apple's internal lab specs, and theories of why the new architecture may be better.
> 
> I truly hope it's all they say it is and more. But personally, I wouldn't base my current DAW buying decisions on it. Especially considering how powerful the available CPUs are.



M1 is already shipping, and benchmarks can be found everywhere. AnandTech's own followup M1 testing is here. Again, this is the worst-case scenario for Apple Silicon: first generation, low core count, low power budget, unoptimized software. And yet, it still "undisputedly outperforms the core performance of everything Intel has to offer, and battles it with AMD’s new Zen3" (AnandTech's words).

The M1 Mac Mini is _52% faster_ than a 2019 16-core Mac Pro in single-core performance. It's only 50% slower in multi-core, despite have 50% less cores and 10% of the power budget.

To be clear, I'm not saying anyone should run out and buy an M1 today. I'm personally waiting for a subsequent generation (and more native software). I'm merely saying that it's an interesting time to leave the Mac, because I think the party's just getting started.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 12, 2020)

Symfoniq said:


> M1 is already shipping, and benchmarks can be found everywhere. AnandTech's own followup M1 testing is here. Again, this is the worst-case scenario for Apple Silicon: first generation, low core count, low power budget, unoptimized software. And yet, it still "undisputedly outperforms the core performance of everything Intel has to offer, and battles it with AMD’s new Zen3" (AnandTech's words).
> 
> The M1 Mac Mini is _52% faster_ than a 2019 16-core Mac Pro in single-core performance. It's only 50% slower in multi-core, despite have 50% less cores and 10% of the power budget.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not saying anyone should run out and buy an M1 today. I'm personally waiting for a subsequent generation (and more native software). I'm merely saying that it's an interesting time to leave the Mac, because I think the party's just getting started.



If I didn’t want Apple, I wouldn’t care about the M1 other than as being industry news.

If I didn’t care which OS, and I needed a computer right now, I’d build a Windows PC.

If I didn’t care which OS, and I could wait, I’d wait and see how the M1 actually performs in the real world over the course of a year and then, if great, I’d plan for a second gen M1 Mac.


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## sostenuto (Dec 12, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> If I didn’t want Apple, I wouldn’t care about the M1 other than as being industry news.
> 
> If I didn’t care which OS, and I needed a computer right now, I’d build a Windows PC.
> 
> If I didn’t care which OS, and I could wait, I’d wait and see how the M1 actually performs in the real world over the course of a year and then, if great, I’d plan for a second gen M1 Mac.



Taking this as solid advice ..... now with (3) Win10 Pro Desktop PC(s) / Reaper. Rock soiid daily operation, but needing to expand SDRAM beyond 32GB. Upgrades will be costly and hope to implement at optimum time for future performance.


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## José Herring (Dec 12, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Definitely looks better with integrated TB3. Have you seen any reports on these, or have experiences of your own?


 I got the Asus Pro Ace because I was considering xeon chips for a while. It is not well received in the server world but mine is working great. The Asus pro creator model would be more my speed though.


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## edhamilton (Dec 12, 2020)

The issue for me isn't the M1 or subsequent generations - 
its what apple will charge for ram.
without 3rd party ram - can only imagine what apple will charge for 256gigs.

1/2 height mac pro = another dustbin, but without 3rd party ram = astronomical price.

Either way - my dustbin 12 core still falls over near the end of big projects and its 2022 for the M series Mac Pro. So what to do for the next 2 years? Prices aren't falling on current mac pro or iMac pro.


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## el-bo (Dec 12, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> without 3rd party ram - can only imagine what apple will charge for 256gigs



Indeed! But maybe Apple plan to combine native and 'normal' ram for such quantities.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 12, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> The issue for me isn't the M1 or subsequent generations -
> its what apple will charge for ram.
> without 3rd party ram - can only imagine what apple will charge for 256gigs.
> 
> ...



I understand your point. But we don’t know yet that you won’t be able to add third-party RAM to the professional Apple Silicon Macs. On-package memory on the M1 doesn’t lock them into that on a future Mac Pro.

Furthermore, the M1 Mac Mini already outperforms your 12-core dustbin Mac Pro: single-core is a whopping 133% faster on the Mac Mini, and multi-core is 4% faster. Yes, this is GeekBench, so there are caveats, and you probably need more RAM than you can get in the M1 Mac Mini, but my point is: Apple’s new low-end is faster than your pro workstation.


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## edhamilton (Dec 12, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Indeed! But maybe Apple plan to combine native and 'normal' ram for such quantities.


We hope. It would make sense. But Apple is gonna Apple ......
Ya know they are pissed about any dollars going to a third party.
So much so - they just went after Bose with the air pod max.
Can't see them leaving Ram money on the table for a third party - which puts us all at apples mercy.
The tell has been apples ram pricing on the mac pro ..........


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## edhamilton (Dec 12, 2020)

Symfoniq said:


> Furthermore, the M1 Mac Mini already outperforms your 12-core dustbin Mac Pro:



It sure does.

My guess is that the M core processor has shown us the ballpark they are going to be playing in.
More cores down the road for sure. But the 1x and future proX versions are likely to be the same in general ballpark but with more cores.

Again it will come down to ram for our use case.
Look at the 128 gig option for the iMac pro. That's where its likely to be priced.
beyond 128 gigs for probably only the 2022 mac pro - and with sky high pricing for that ram.

Hope not. Wish not. They could crush the market, regain large market share in the pro creator community world wide if they aggressively price the 2022 mac pro with lots of ram.

but apple is apple. Its tim cooks apple.
High ram upgrades have been priced for institutions - not individual creators and will likely continue to be .

I do think a 128g 8 core MacBook pro could arrive next year. Which would eat into the 2022 mac pro sales (light ram versions). Which again is why I guess that the high ram versions will be moonshot pricing.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 12, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Again it will come down to ram for our use case.
> Look at the 128 gig option for the iMac pro. That's where its likely to be priced.
> beyond 128 gigs for probably only the 2022 mac pro - and with sky high pricing for that ram.



That's why an M1 mini (only $1100) + powerful slave PC = win win!


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## el-bo (Dec 12, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> We hope. It would make sense. But Apple is gonna Apple ......
> Ya know they are pissed about any dollars going to a third party.
> So much so - they just went after Bose with the air pod max.
> Can't see them leaving Ram money on the table for a third party - which puts us all at apples mercy.
> The tell has been apples ram pricing on the mac pro ..........



Apple have been soldering RAM into their laptops for years. They certainly could easily have done the same with the PRO models, but I'm guessing they knew that the result would be that many would (as you are considering, now) just take their business elsewhere. Also, part of the premium pricing of the PRO is surely the user-expandability. That's not to say they won't end up doing as you fear, but it'd be a shock.


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## edhamilton (Dec 12, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> That's why an M1 mini (only $1100) + powerful slave PC = win win!


In the end - a 128g M1 Mini - might be the most economical/expandable way to go.
A stack of those little suckers would kill.

But will there ever be a 128g ram mini? 
Price of a 64g? will there be a 64g?

2022 ...... if only I could wait.

Appreciate the responses gang.


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## Mannix (Dec 12, 2020)

my advice: M1X stay tuned


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## edhamilton (Dec 12, 2020)

M1x = iMac
Let's see what 128 gigs of ram costs to go in it.
There won't be a little trap door that OWC can put ram chips in.

But you're right about the M1x/imac - it will show us how Apple is going to view max ram options and ram pricing.
If it tops out at 64gigs - then we'll know that apple doesn't understand our niche.

Then comes the iMac pro - with cray ram pricing.


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## edhamilton (Dec 12, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Apple have been soldering RAM into their laptops for years. They certainly could easily have done the same with the PRO models, but I'm guessing they knew that the result would be that many would (as you are considering, now) just take their business elsewhere. Also, part of the premium pricing of the PRO is surely the user-expandability. That's not to say they won't end up doing as you fear, but it'd be a shock.



They did exactly that with the Imac pro.
You could only expand the ram by voiding the warranty and removing the screen.
I imagine the accountants at apple drooling at the chance to solder in all ram forever.


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## Mannix (Dec 12, 2020)

M1-M1X are so efficient they wont require tonnes of expensive ram, its super fast at SSD/RAM swap amongst other things

M series is a paradigm shift for everything computer. Its really that big of a deal.

Awesome for us creators, M1/M1X will provide huge systems like the big boys have for fractions $$$. You will be able to run endless concurrent instances of the most CPU hungry plugins, render an 8k clip, host a multi site zoom meeting with your bosses, all at the same time, with no hick-ups, no heat, negligible battery use etc; etc..

Intel is a great company but maybe fini once every one else jumps on ARM stuff


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## AudioLoco (Dec 13, 2020)

Symfoniq said:


> Mac user since 1988 here.
> 
> I agree with a previous comment: The grass isn’t greener on Windows. Did that for a few years when Apple lost its way with the Mac between 2013 and 2019. I love building PCs, but don’t love using them for the kinds of work I do. Can you get work done? Sure. Did I like it? Not really. Windows 10 is very solid, but it’s not polished if your yardstick is macOS.
> 
> Now is an interesting time to leave Apple, with potentially some of the biggest performance jumps in a (human) generation on the horizon. Apple Silicon is exceeding all expectations. I don’t expect Intel or AMD to have an answer in the short term. There is also rumor of a half-height Mac Pro with Apple Silicon. These are exciting times in MacWorld. Reference intended.



Ideally you are right....
But I believe it's, much, much greener... (In my personal opinion and experience)

Had a G4 (the new "war machine") which dies after 2 years and thousands$ AppleCare said it was un-fixable, my guarantee expired.
Had a G5 that died after a year and thousands$.
Had 2 Macbooks Pro (thousands$), one died after maybe three years, fixed, died, fixed, died and left to rot.
One Macbook wasn't powerful enough to run anything but emails (and Cubase and Pro Tools, if you use 3 plugin per project, were great too!), even having nominally the same specs as the work PC I had a few years ago, and is the one am writing from.

What is supposed to be exciting news with the M1x etc will mostly mean software working fantastically!
But only for iTunes and Apple App Store and maybe Photoshop...
Users in pro audio, in my prediction, fueled by fact of the last years, will only have problems on problems, constant need to pay developers for updates, hardware failures, trips to the AppleCareStoreRepairMaybe etc...
And the prices... Double, triple, power and capacity from a similarly priced PC (at the moment).
It's clear Apple proritizes its main department, the gadget one, and lets the Pro one to chance more or less, or as aside project (at least 2010-2020).

Sorry if I sound so negative about this but I am really happy with the PCs I had the last 10 years (considering my upbringing in a strict conservative Mac family house  ).
Only once I had a hard disc failure, but that's about it. Plain sailing. 
I get an email every other day from developers saying "x program is not compatible with LaGrandePanorama or whatever the current Mac Os is called, don't update"
Overall W7 and W10 have been stable and Cubase in particular runs great exploiting the CPU much better then on similarly spec'd Apple machine.
If you use Logic, then sure it's the only option, and DAW familiarity trumps everything usually.
(Also Pro Tools works better on Mac from my knowledge)

The only 100% superiority in my opinion, is in virus protection. Macs are virtually immune while you have to be very careful with Windows.

I don't want to get in to the Neanderthalian and boring Mac vs PC debate, just my experience and the two cents I have left from investing in Macs over the years. 

All the best for the new build, sounds exciting!


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## el-bo (Dec 13, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> They did exactly that with the Imac pro.
> You could only expand the ram by voiding the warranty and removing the screen.
> I imagine the accountants at apple drooling at the chance to solder in all ram forever.



At this point, I think you're better off going with a Windows machine. It would be different if you were someone who loved MacOS and/or had been using Logic for a very long time, and would prefer to remain in that world. However, your main concern seems to be about cost. 

Even if we were to assume that Apple will keep the MPro as the only expandable machine, the way these computers will scale is no longer the same. 

It used to be that someone needing the highest power (Hardware expandibility, also) available would have to go for the Pro, then add the RAM themselves. However, with the M1 etc. the processing power will probably already have been satisfied at a much lower price-point (In many cases it already would have been...with the Air). This means that unless you want expandable internal storage, a powerful dedicated GPU card (Will Mac even use them, anymore?), and PCIE expandability, you'd be paying a huge premium just for the option to expand the RAM, never mind the cost of the RAM itself.

The option of running hybrid might work, but the Mac side of things is till a bit of an unknown factor.

And you might just really enjoy running a Windows machine. If not, then at least you'll know, and can work out what to do about it once the Apple's line-up is more settled.


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## Antkn33 (Dec 13, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> The issue for me isn't the M1 or subsequent generations -
> its what apple will charge for ram.
> without 3rd party ram - can only imagine what apple will charge for 256gigs.
> 
> ...


It is my understanding that you can’t upgrade anything on the M1s... internal ssd, ram cpu all non-upgradeable


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 13, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> Ideally you are right....
> But I believe it's, much, much greener... (In my personal opinion and experience)
> 
> Had a G4 (the new "war machine") which dies after 2 years and thousands$ AppleCare said it was un-fixable, my guarantee expired.
> ...



A piece of advice for you. Never go outside when there’s thunder and lightning, and if you ever see a grand piano being lifted to a second floor apartment, never walk under it.....


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## Antkn33 (Dec 13, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> Ideally you are right....
> But I believe it's, much, much greener... (In my personal opinion and experience)
> 
> Had a G4 (the new "war machine") which dies after 2 years and thousands$ AppleCare said it was un-fixable, my guarantee expired.
> ...


I’ve had many, many, many more pc based computers die on me or become obsolete thanks macs.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2020)

colony nofi said:


> As @PaulieDC pointed out (and Richard Ames's video discussed) DAW's don't generally scale well above 8 cores. It comes down to the core-zero problem, which is down to how real-time audio generally works.



While I don't know what core-zero is, last time Richard posted about that I responded with a screenshot of my 12-core 5,1 Mac Pro using all its cores on a project that wasn't even all that big.

So I don't really understand his point. Is he only talking about Windows?


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## edhamilton (Dec 13, 2020)

Antkn33 said:


> It is my understanding that you can’t upgrade anything on the M1s... internal ssd, ram cpu all non-upgradeable


hopefull rumors that the 2022 mac pro might have user upgradable ram. 
also rumors that all M processor macs will have built in ram.

for our use - we need apple to hit that sweet spot of enough power, low enough cost but high ram options. not betting the farm on them doing so.


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## jcrosby (Dec 13, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> M1x = iMac
> Let's see what 128 gigs of ram costs to go in it.
> There won't be a little trap door that OWC can put ram chips in.
> 
> ...


I have a hunch Apple's been doing a bunch of development with memory compression over the years and the m1 will be able to utilize this feature to far greater affect than it could on intel machines.. People are also ignoring that this is the 1st batch of machines with the lowest specs Apple will probably ever ship on the new platform. Apple will certainly fill the void over time.


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## edhamilton (Dec 13, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I have a hunch Apple's been doing a bunch of development with memory compression over the years and the m1 will be able to utilize this feature to far greater affect than it could on intel machines..



Exactly! 
But fast swapping ram for video editing will likely not be fast enough for large sample templates.
Nor will software be coded well enough to get close.


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## jcrosby (Dec 13, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Exactly!
> But fast swapping ram for video editing will likely not be fast enough for large sample templates.
> Nor will software be coded well enough to get close.


Quite possible... We'll see though. I was totally skeptical the new chips would be this powerful in the 1st version so I have to hand it to Apple here.. Their R&D is way above what I thought it was, and it really does seem to be the case that intel has been the mac performance bottleneck (even somewhat in price) over the past 5-6 years many of us struggled with.

I really hope Apple don't start creeping the prices up in a way that out's of scale with the new models. I could see myself picking up a mini next year sometime and using my hackintosh as a sample server as long as Apple doesn't start nudging up the price between now and then...


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## Fitz (Dec 13, 2020)

Can anyone comment on switching from Mac to PC Cubase?


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## Symfoniq (Dec 13, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> While I don't know what core-zero is, last time Richard posted about that I responded with a screenshot of my 12-core 5,1 Mac Pro using all its cores on a project that wasn't even all that big.
> 
> So I don't really understand his point. Is he only talking about Windows?



Likewise, I can max all 16 cores in Logic 10.5+, which seems better-optimized for high core counts than older versions.


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## colony nofi (Dec 13, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> While I don't know what core-zero is, last time Richard posted about that I responded with a screenshot of my 12-core 5,1 Mac Pro using all its cores on a project that wasn't even all that big.
> 
> So I don't really understand his point. Is he only talking about Windows?



I kinda feel like this topic needs one of those cool 10 min explainer videos. Its complex, and I've been tripped up a number of times on various parts of it. I'm going to ramble a bit and hopefully it helps. I'm no teacher - I'd imagine there are others here with much more knowledge than I who can also explain things much better, but I'll give it a go of sorts.

Before launching in, i feel like its important to say that this *is* a real issue. Its quantifiable (testable) and comes down to chip and pc achitechture vs the needs of real time audio. It occurs on all processors no matter the type. Its platform agnostic. (I'm going to borrow a M1 mini later this week and see how it rears its head compared to the other systems we have at the studios / lab right now) 

BUT that doesn't mean that everyone will experience the effects in the same way, as we all use DAWs differently. Some people may never see the issue, and will see continuously scaling results for DAW performance over different chips based purely on chip clockspeed, number of cores and IPC boost from generation to generation. (IPC being this vague term that is probably best understood as how much a CPU can do witiin each clock cycle). But these people are in the minority.

I also kinda wish that it wasn't called the single core problem, or even the zero core (or core 0) problem... info about it is spread out in various ways across the web under different names, and I'm not sure anyone will ever agree on a name. (Words are important!)

I've always referred to it as the core zero issue, as the first core of any CPU is known as core 0.

(for example, a four core CPU would be have the cores named core 0, core 1, core 2 and core 3.)

But - for the sake of understanding, lets name the explanation :
Realtime Audio Considerations for (multi-core) CPU choice

Because thats the crux of it.

Realtime audio.

Some parts of computing are easily parallelised. Others are not. And still others - like realtime DAWS (and a lot of gaming) live somewhere in the middle - where multiple cores are awesome for scaling DSP on occasions, but the design, speed and use of core 0 is often the bottle neck.

Think about how audio in a really simple mixer works. Audio comes in to many channels at the same time. Each channel is processed in parallel - at the same time. And then at the end the result of all those channels is summed together.

In order for the summing to be correct, the audio must arrive at the same time. So even though you can spread the processing for different channels to different cores, you need to "wait" for the highest CPU intensive channel to finish before summing all the other channels. So they just have to sit and wait. Now, we are not talking latency here - we are talking about CPU cylces.

Indeed - in a single channel, most processing is SERIAL. So - we need to consider the CPU cycles needed for the entire channel, not just a single plugin. 

In modern DAWS, there are some extremely brilliant programming choices that have been made that allow even single plugins to utilise multiple cores. But it gets very complex very quickly in a session with tonnes of busses, sends, returns, side-chains and the like. 

And no matter what, your final signal chain - your master chain - needs to wait for EVERYTHING else to finish being processed before it can be processed.

There are some awesome things that can be done with buffers and DSP - allowing chuncks of work to be broken up into different sizes. Indeed - the buffer settings on your sound card are showing part of what this issue is about, in a round about way. Your computer is able to do far LESS processing when running lower buffers for your sound card due to timing issues / only having a certain amount of time to "wait" for processing before being inundated with more data from the next buffer. And that can't be slowed down - its audio - its real-time. (This is a simplification of something thats actually kinda different, but its a useful demonstration so I'll leave it. Mattias over at RME has some far better explanations for this which go into it in more detail.)

Now. Let us add further complications into the mix. We need to be able to play in notes and hear them in "realtime" - or with as little delay as possible. Buffers play a massive part here - but this also this is where single core issues come into play. While audio that is playing back off of a midi recording can do clever things with delaying audio longer than buffers, one cannot do this when playing in midi or recording a audio part. You are more likely to experience CPU spikes during a recording compared to playing back. 

All this interrelates - and just means that most often, a DAW will max out a single core before being able to say get all cores to be running at 95% usage. Over the past 6 to 10 years, there has been MASSIVE improvements in scalability, but many of the issues remain, and manifest themselves to different users in different ways depending on how they use a DAW.

(If you ever want to see a single CPU core spike cause issues, just put a tempo ramp in cubase and playback audio in a kontakt instrument!)

So - some people will see the core 0 issue when the rest of their cores are sitting as low as 10%. Others will see it when the cores are at 30%. Still others when they're at 70 or 80%. It depends on way too many variables to be able to make exacting predictions on if one template / session / set of software will cause it over others. But there are some things to take into account.

Some DAWS distribute processing for plugins across cores in different ways. Some plugins distribute processing across cores themselves. These "decisions" don't always alsign (but with more recent implementations of the standards for plugins, this problem has been diminished.)

Some software instruments are incredibly CPU thirsty, and will not distribute well across cores.

Some session structures (use of stems / sends / groups etc) are more single core cpu intensive than others.

(The max-turbo for a single core rarely plays any part with this issue - the max "all core speed" (as an approximation) usually helps determine how a cpu will behave.)

DAW's are only just starting to make use of more than 8 cores well. But you can use more cores efficiently when running some other DSP outside the DAW (but you can also run into single core issues when doing so as well - its a dance. I've found awesome ways to run tonnes of CPU intensive immersive audio DSP outside of nuendo on the 10940X which blew away other chips. It was very workflow specific.)

If you use something that isn't programmed well for multi-cores, it can bring down your session in one swoop. I'm using a version of Reaktor from 2017 still (don't ask!) and I have various patches when on load can bring my system to its knees, as that version was only single-core. I'm not sure if its been updated - gives me something to explore in downtime. Like that'll happen.)

One final little observation. You may see more problems the more COMPLEX your session gets / the more powerful your system. That may seem a paradox, but it relates to your observations about a relatively simple session scaling nicely.

Simple sessions have less routing, which is easier to handle for the single core (running the realtime audio process). You get better CPU's, you generaly use more complex DSP, more complex sessions (yes its a generalisation, but give me more power and I'll damn well use it!). The complexity of sessions often sees the realtime core 0 audio performance issue rear its head earlier just because the user is used to loads of power and loads up a single channel with a bunch of really DSP intensive plugins, or because the powerful machine allows you to run a 7.1.4 atmos session... and all the routing that requires.

My 8 core trashcan can't even play a single note using some custom software instruments that a 10940X can handle easily and with multiple instances. I've only started using this software because, well, I could given I had a CPU that could handle it.

Clear as mud? I hope that helps a little bit....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2020)

Thanks Colony!


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## Quasar (Dec 13, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> We hope. It would make sense. But Apple is gonna Apple ......
> Ya know they are pissed about any dollars going to a third party.
> So much so - they just went after Bose with the air pod max.
> Can't see them leaving Ram money on the table for a third party - which puts us all at apples mercy.
> The tell has been apples ram pricing on the mac pro ..........



This M1 innovation is terribly exciting, but that it's tied to Apple's despotic ecosystem is a buzz kill. Looking forward, generally, to the post-x86, RISC-like architecture that offers different hardware vendors, openness and choice. Current Windows (Surface Pro X) or Android offerings, AFAIK, cannot yet begin to compete with high-end workstations, but this will change. Then maybe we'll have a landscape of options similar to the Windows scene today, ARM-based DIY builds or even Hackintosh.


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## rmak (Dec 13, 2020)

Hey guys, as someone that is going to purchase his first orchestral string library this month probably (I have collected other plugins over the years nothing massive, below 1.5 tb of stuff), do you guys have any recommendations for how I should upgrade from 2016 macbook pro 16gb 2.7ghz quad i7? I use Logic and would like to stay apple if possible. The Arm stuff sounds expensive and may be overkill for what I have. When new mac models come out, do the older models imac pro sale for cheaper? The older macs would also be nice because you can purchase your own ram from OWC I read. Probably 14 core would be more than enough for me? It s a bit hard to to gauge how many libraries and tracks I ll use as I am new to orchestral composition, but when the time comes Ill probably just purchase something.


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## edhamilton (Dec 13, 2020)

It will be a year until all software is native for the apple silicon arm chip macs. 
A used or refurbed iMac 8 core i9 seems to be the sweet spot right now.
+ OWC ram. 

Will easily last you two years without ever worrying about a computer upgrade.


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## Fitz (Dec 14, 2020)

rmak said:


> Hey guys, as someone that is going to purchase his first orchestral string library this month probably (I have collected other plugins over the years nothing massive, below 1.5 tb of stuff), do you guys have any recommendations for how I should upgrade from 2016 macbook pro 16gb 2.7ghz quad i7? I use Logic and would like to stay apple if possible. The Arm stuff sounds expensive and may be overkill for what I have. When new mac models come out, do the older models imac pro sale for cheaper? The older macs would also be nice because you can purchase your own ram from OWC I read. Probably 14 core would be more than enough for me? It s a bit hard to to gauge how many libraries and tracks I ll use as I am new to orchestral composition, but when the time comes Ill probably just purchase something.


How much ram do you think you’ll need? Have you thought about building a slave PC instead?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 14, 2020)

rmak said:


> Hey guys, as someone that is going to purchase his first orchestral string library this month probably (I have collected other plugins over the years nothing massive, below 1.5 tb of stuff), do you guys have any recommendations for how I should upgrade from 2016 macbook pro 16gb 2.7ghz quad i7? I use Logic and would like to stay apple if possible. The Arm stuff sounds expensive and may be overkill for what I have. When new mac models come out, do the older models imac pro sale for cheaper? The older macs would also be nice because you can purchase your own ram from OWC I read. Probably 14 core would be more than enough for me? It s a bit hard to to gauge how many libraries and tracks I ll use as I am new to orchestral composition, but when the time comes Ill probably just purchase something.



You could take my approach. I'm still running a 2013 MB Pro, and although I have been getting by great without using my aging slave, I've decided to have a new slave built. My "computer guy" is going to build an i9 for under $1500 (I'll be using the SSD's from my current unit). This could keep me going for another couple of years with the MB Pro if needed....but even if I upgraded to a new Mini, they are only around $1300 and I'd still have the powerful slave for years to come.


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## rmak (Dec 14, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> You could take my approach. I'm still running a 2013 MB Pro, and although I have been getting by great without using my aging slave, I've decided to have a new slave built. My "computer guy" is going to build an i9 for under $1500 (I'll be using the SSD's from my current unit). This could keep me going for another couple of years with the MB Pro if needed....but even if I upgraded to a new Mini, they are only around $1300 and I'd still have the powerful slave for years to come.



Thanks for the suggestion. I think maybe a pc slave is the best way to go if I want to stay on logic and be economical. I never built a slave pc or a pc for that matter. I ll do some digging and looking at parts, starting with what the OP has posted. I might not need as highly spec ed parts as what the OP has shared.

$1500 is budget friendly. Is there by any chance you ll be able to share what cpu parts you purchase and what a typical template or project looks like for you? So I get an idea what the capacity is like. Thanks 🙏

I ll research and look into the logistics of how pc slave works. I am guessing you can somehow configure how much of the load the pc takes. I hear VE pro a lot, but I think I ll try to avoid adding more complexities for the time being and start with setting up a pc slave.


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## rmak (Dec 14, 2020)

Fitz said:


> How much ram do you think you’ll need? Have you thought about building a slave PC instead?



I am not sure how much ram I ll need. I ll purchase a string library this month, maybe BBSCO core or MSS. I am a beginner, so it is hard to say what else I may need or purchase. Having a set up that can last me the next 5 years would be nice, but it s hard to say what will happen. I am guessing 128gb of ram is pretty conservative?

It looks like purchasing refurbished macs might be an option too. But maybe a pc slave will be more economical and last me longer. I am hoping it wont be super complex to set up.

Im also trying to understand why the OP is choosing to build a new pc instead of using a slave. Are there a lot of cons with slave? Why dont mac users just use pc slaves instead of completely switching over to PC if the main complaint is lack of ram?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 14, 2020)

rmak said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I think maybe a pc slave is the best way to go if I want to stay on logic and be economical. I never built a slave pc or a pc for that matter, but I assume it shouldn’t be too complex. I ll do some digging and looking at parts, starting with what the OP has posted. I might not need as highly spec ed parts as what the OP has shared.
> 
> Is there by any chance you ll be able to share what cpu parts you purchase and what a typical template or project looks like for you? So I get an idea what the capacity is like. Thanks 🙏
> 
> I ll research and look into the logistics of how pc slave works. I am guessing you can somehow configure how much of the load the pc takes. I hear VE pro a lot, but I think I ll try to avoid adding more complexities for the time being and start with setting up a pc slave.



Yeah, VEPro will be the way to go. I currently host around 60 tracks with the MacBook alone, and around 200 when I fire up the slave (currently an i7 2700k). With a new i9 slave, I'll be able to go 500+ easily if needed. Depending on RAM, the sky is the limit.

I wouldn't attempt building a PC myself (you may enjoy it), I have a local computer shop that I've gone to for years, they will do my build. They basically just charge for the parts, so I have peace of mind knowing it will all work! No, I don't trust myself with doing it myself


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## rmak (Dec 14, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Yeah, VEPro will be the way to go. I currently host around 60 tracks with the MacBook alone, and around 200 when I fire up the slave (currently an i7 2700k). With a new i9 slave, I'll be able to go 500+ easily if needed. Depending on RAM, the sky is the limit.
> 
> I wouldn't attempt building a PC myself (you may enjoy it), I have a local computer shop that I've gone to for years, they will do my build. They basically just charge for the parts, so I have peace of mind knowing it will all work! No, I don't trust myself with doing it myself



Haha that s a good idea. I should maybe look into some local cpu stores. Do they also help you set up the cpu as a slave? Would your set up be very different if you didn’t have VE Pro?


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## lokotus (Dec 14, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> We hope. It would make sense. But Apple is gonna Apple ......
> Ya know they are pissed about any dollars going to a third party.
> So much so - they just went after Bose with the air pod max.
> Can't see them leaving Ram money on the table for a third party - which puts us all at apples mercy.
> The tell has been apples ram pricing on the mac pro ..........


people must be nuts investing in apple when amd and intel do their own thing with hardware that is way less expensive and repair (or broken parts exchange) support that is way less expensive with windows based machines. why would anybody want to invest in a closed eco system that has no performance or price benefit ?


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## rmak (Dec 14, 2020)

lokotus said:


> people must be nuts investing in apple when amd and intel do their own thing with hardware that is way less expensive and repair (or broken parts exchange) support that is way less expensive with windows based machines. why would anybody want to invest in a closed eco system that has no performance or price benefit ?


less viruses?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 14, 2020)

lokotus said:


> why would anybody want to invest in a closed eco system that has no performance or price benefit ?



For me, it's reliability, and that is priceless to me. Maybe I got lucky, but my Mac has been rock solid for the past seven years....unlike my years prior on Windows machines. For me, the price works out the same (or better) in the long run when you factor in not having to worry about delivering a finished project on time, no hardware failures, etc.


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## lokotus (Dec 14, 2020)

rmak said:


> less viruses?


good point. disable with working windows pc from the internet and use a cheap mac laptop for surfing . thats what i do...


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## lokotus (Dec 14, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> For me, it's reliability, and that is priceless to me. Maybe I got lucky, but my Mac has been rock solid for the past seven years....unlike my years prior on Windows machines. For me, the price works out the same (or better) in the long run when you factor in not having to worry about delivering a finished project on time, no hardware failures, etc.


pretty stable win10 here (most stables so far). If somebody is not sure how to build a stable system you could go to a windows daw manufacture. Cubase stability for example does not really depend on the OS. Have have heard other stories from different DAWs (i.e. DP)
For somebody who needs orchestral setup for example 128 GB ram is pretty much standard.
Buying 128 GB from apple plus apple care just to stay on the safe side of warranty is pretty expensive. I do care a about my money so I let them care about their apples on their own 
Cheers, lokotus


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 14, 2020)

lokotus said:


> pretty stable win10 here (most stables so far). If somebody is not sure how to build a stable system you could go to a windows daw manufacture. Cubase stability for example does not really depend on the OS. Have have heard other stories from different DAWs (i.e. DP)
> For somebody who needs orchestral setup for example 128 GB ram is pretty much standard.
> Buying 128 GB from apple plus apple care just to stay on the safe side of warranty is pretty expensive. I do care a about my money so I let them care about their apples on their own
> Cheers, lokotus



Fair enough, but many composers, including myself, can get by nicely with far less than 128GB. It’s all about workflow.


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## lokotus (Dec 15, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Fair enough, but many composers, including myself, can get by nicely with far less than 128GB. It’s all about workflow.



Workflow... and don't forget the extra money for the repairs. This always reminds me to better stay of the apple universe. you are pretty much tied to apples workflow of managing things for you ...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 15, 2020)

lokotus said:


> Workflow... and don't forget the extra money for the repairs. This always reminds me to better stay of the apple universe. you are pretty much tied to apples workflow of managing things for you ...




Not a single repair here....ever. Lucky maybe? Really though, when you consider I paid $2800 in 2013, and that laptop was the workhorse behind earning substantial $$ over the years and creating countless pieces of music, the cost is insignificant to me. For a hobbyist, I can understand the reluctance.


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## Tim_Wells (Dec 15, 2020)

FWIW, Endgaget gave the M1 one Tech’s biggest winners in 2020 

So I stand corrected. I won't be switching to a Mac anytime soon, but the product is more than speculation, as I indicated earlier.


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## urz (Dec 16, 2020)

edhamilton said:


> Done with apple (first mac was a plus in 87).
> No trust that they will deliver a mac pro with 256g ram or more at a price point that would make any sense.
> 
> So cubase + windows.
> ...



I’ve just received a build like that a week ago. But it’s not for Cubase, just for sample streaming via VEP:

Gigabyte X299X Designare 10G
Intel Core i9-10980XE
Corsair Vengeance LPX 256GB (8x32GB) DDR4 3200

I’ve done some initial prepping and testing, and everything seems fine. DPC latency is very low after some adjustments. One interesting thing with that motherboard is that it comes with a PCIe NVMe adapter: AORUS GEN4 AIC. I put 4 x 2TB in RAID 0 on it and the benchmarks are extreme. I’ve not yet tested the build in any real-world scenario, but it looks promising. It will replace three rather old slaves.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 16, 2020)

urz said:


> I’ve just received a build like that a week ago. But it’s not for Cubase, just for sample streaming via VEP:
> 
> Gigabyte X299X Designare 10G
> Intel Core i9-10980XE
> ...



Nice! If you don’t mind asking, what did it cost?


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## urz (Dec 16, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Nice! If you don’t mind asking, what did it cost?



NP. Approx 5k USD. (The cost for the RAM and five NVMe M.2 SSDs was half of it.)


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 16, 2020)

rmak said:


> less viruses?



The year 2000 wants you back!

My windows computers have had two viruses total since the 90s, and both were due to my stupidity, doing things I shouldn’t have been. And the last one was maybe 15+ years ago.

According to Malwarebytes, in 2020 there’s more Macs detected as being infected than Windows PCs (or at least more infected per computer... a little unclear). But... Whatever floats your boat in that very tiny pond contained in that walled garden! I’m sure it FEELS safe. 🤪


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