# Upcoming notation apps and trends for 2016 question



## Steve Steele (Oct 3, 2015)

I started using Finale in 1995. But I haven't seriously used a notation program for many years. I'm considering buying one.

I notice that most apps are starting to include the Surface and iPad Pro as writing devices and performances devices. Notion and Sibelius are doing this to some extent. 

My desire to have a notation program comes from my need to compose in it along side my DAW (Digital Performer). I like mixing note entry with performance entry depending on the part. And most of it is orchestral, large and small.

So, what's happening in the notation app world? I keep hearing about a possible elimination of Sibelius and Finale (the kings). I hear about some ex-Sibelius guys building a new notation app. I see all of these companies really moving to tablet devices with the big companies wisely doing both.

My priorities are to:
1) sketch and compose quickly in the app and maybe import into DP.
2) Easy to enter all kinds of articulations and to get them to play back. I use a keyboard controller, a guitar controller, and maybe later a breath controller. 
3) Depending where my career heads I made need to deliver charts (not likely in the near further but I would like an app to do a decent layout job).
4) Working with my existing Kontakt and VSL instruments would be a plus but not a deal killer.

So, basically, easy to use, but as powerful as possible.

Any advice guys? To bad Notion has no demos. I've demoed Finale, Sibelius and MuseScore. Finale still seems geared towards publication. Sibelius was ok but I hated the ribbon and got lost in which dialog boxes did what. Still looking at MuseScore.

Thanks!


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## almound (Oct 3, 2015)

nightwatch said:


> I keep hearing about a possible elimination of Sibelius and Finale (the kings). I hear about some ex-Sibelius guys building a new notation app. I see all of these companies really moving to tablet devices with the big companies wisely doing both.
> 
> My priorities are to:
> 1) sketch and compose quickly in the app and maybe import into DP.
> ...



Sibelius is mainly used for musical score desktop publishing and so isn't going away any time soon (I don't believe). Of course, its learning curve is steep, not only because of the menu bar. (I hate it, too. Ctl+F1 hides it; or use the little green triangle in its lower left corner. Sheesh.)

Because of that, Finale will probably remain competitive. Sibelius has taken up so much of my time to learn it, though, that I can't really say anything about Finale. But from what I've read, it is certainly viable for many people.

But I can vouch for Notion 4, although I haven't used 5. Its cheap and, what's more, buying it gave me the competitive upgrade price for Sibelius 7.5 (saved about $200 that way). [I prefer to use Sibelius 7.5.1 over Notion, because what I write is pretty complicated classical music and because I can use Sibelius as a scoring editor front-end for Presonus Studio One 3 sequencer (https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaClassica?feature=mhee).]

But for what you want, Notion may be the way to go. It does everything you require listed in your post. (It may be a bit shy on the "deliver charts" department, however, depending on how many details are required.) Although I don't currently use Notion 5, that doesn't mean I don't support new players in the field.

I have demo'd Sibelius 8 and for what I use it for it seems OK, but I don't really need extensive annotations and I haven't used it with a tablet, though (which is just about its only innovations). There is already an 8.0.1 fix for some issues, however, which is par for the course with Sibelius. It always takes a while for any new version to settle down.


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## mc_deli (Oct 3, 2015)

I would like sibelius remote on an ipad with a pen please. Like Logic Remote I want it constantly in sync with my main machine and display. I want to carry on using mouse/keyboard/big display as usual... but I want to change to doing more than 50% of note entry with a stylus and tablet. This would rock my world.


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## almound (Oct 4, 2015)

Hear, hear! Sibelius 8 is supposed to have some capability in that regard. But my guess is that you are going to have to look elsewhere for the kind of finesse you describe (re: Logic Remote). In 15 years of using and fighting Sibelius one thing I've learned is not to look to it to be anything but the first stumbling block that needs to be overcome. (I was never one of those cheerleaders rah-rah-ing the Sibelius development team. But to be fair, they were up against a heck of a difficult problem.)


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## Oberheim (Oct 5, 2015)

nightwatch said:


> My priorities are to:
> 1) sketch and compose quickly in the app and maybe import into DP.
> 2) Easy to enter all kinds of articulations and to get them to play back. I use a keyboard controller, a guitar controller, and maybe later a breath controller.
> 3) Depending where my career heads I made need to deliver charts (not likely in the near further but I would like an app to do a decent layout job).
> ...



There is Overture, it is old but, you can enter all kinds of articulations and define how to play it by write your own rule, or after add sign on the score. You can make own curve in crescendo signs. You must write own instrument rules for midi, if you want use it with DAW with all articulations and keyswitch playback. You can control every VSTi you have in daw and each will have different custom rule (if you write it) on the one score (this is same for Notion + notion can have for each VSTi own dynamics rules). Overture have midi sequencer and you can edit all midi changes. Disadvantages are annoying bugs, which are parts of Overture features and then you are limited use the program (like not working dynamics in another voices in one staff). New version is coming for years, maybe it will be released this year but I think it will be another year or 2, 3... Demo is available.

Notion is not good as Overture in notation, dont have midi sequencer and you can not draw midi changes. Notion have own custom rule, you can easily write in Notion rule editor. Now it is better then Overture in this case + Notion have it interactive - that means, if you change the rule, changes will be immediately in Overture you must restart program if you change rule in xml. Notion have demo, you must create account on the site and then go to products in your account, but I am not sure if this demo is for everyone or only for Notion users. I think, this program have better future as Overture, and Notion development is slow too, and every new version brings very little updates, I have Notion 3 and it is not big difference from N5 (news: cross staff beaming, 64bit, custom rule editor, drum pads, keyboard panel, video playback, and some news I don't interest in it).


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## bcarwell (Oct 5, 2015)

I am watching the relatively newcomer StaffPad's developments (primarily for Surface I think) and mainly because of the quick stylus handwritten input. A few good demos on YouTube.


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## Farkle (Oct 5, 2015)

Staffpad is quite impressive. I have not exported a project from Staffpad (in XML) to either Sibelius, or export MIDI to DAW yet, but if I keep it within Staffpad, and export to PDF, to play into my DAW, it's pretty darn slick. Easy to use, fast, and feels very musical (using my pen to write music).


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## Steve Steele (Oct 6, 2015)

almound said:


> Sibelius is mainly used for musical score desktop publishing and so isn't going away any time soon (I don't believe). Of course, its learning curve is steep, not only because of the menu bar. (I hate it, too. Ctl+F1 hides it; or use the little green triangle in its lower left corner. Sheesh.)
> 
> Because of that, Finale will probably remain competitive. Sibelius has taken up so much of my time to learn it, though, that I can't really say anything about Finale. But from what I've read, it is certainly viable for many people.
> 
> ...



Notion's partner app, Progression comes bundled with the Guitar MIDI controller I just got so at least I'll get a taste. 

I didn't mean I could't get around Sibelius's hideous ribbon. I took care of that within the first few minutes of hating it. I've been using it for a few months and feel comfortable in it. Perhaps Notion would be a good sketching app. I also write fairly complicated classical music and Sibelius might have to remain as my main publishing app. 

When I recently demoed Finale, although I only spent a short time with it, it looked like they've cleaned up the interface from 20 years ago(!). But it also looked like it's focus was still mainly publishing. I know it has some sister apps. I may look into those. 

I agree with mc_dell. I would like to see a notation app that is developed for the strengths of the iPad Pro, still retains it's powerful desktop publishing and playback features on the desktop, but has a workflow where both versions can work together. That would be nice.

Thanks


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## almound (Oct 6, 2015)

nightwatch said:


> Notion's partner app, Progression comes bundled with the Guitar MIDI controller I just got so at least I'll get a taste.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



That's a tall order. But it may happen. (Doubt as if it will be out of anything we know about yet, though.) 

I just installed some trial demos (Sonar, Fruit Loops, and Samplitude) and hope to make some new videos showing how to configure them to make Sibelius as a scoring editor front-end for each. I would have done so for Cubase, but they want me to buy a dongle and on principle I won't pay anything to demo a product. Sorry. People can figure out how from watching me work with the other sequencers. 

The way I figure it:

1) no industry publication gives me the information necessary to determine if a product meets my needs by using it according to accepted electronic music creation practices

2) companies always leave it to the customer to figure out what is necessary to work around the impracticalities of their product, which often costs them money

3) companies require non-refundable purchase based upon advertising that has no specifics by which to determine if their product meets the customer's needs

4) should a company make their documentation available before purchase, its details are often sketchy and has no adequate index to look up specific solutions

5) often a company's knowledge base help site is missing pertinent information, returns non-related issues, or gives merely general troubleshooting procedures

6) for years I experienced companies releasing products in an immature state of development, yet charging retail for it as though it were mature product

7) for years companies used their customer base like a free R&R development team, then incorporated some of their beta testing into updates

8) yet often companies ignored valid complaints about features in their product that don't work or are difficult, and which then continued into the next upgrade

9) often companies drag out interminably the release of the value-added extensions and updates that they promise will make their product viable for practical use

10) often companies ridicule and even criticize their customer for calling them on their negligence and poor business practices 

So, although I would like to demo Cubase, I won't because of their dongle requirement.


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## wcreed51 (Oct 6, 2015)

The same dongle would be used for VSL software and libraries. I don't think your criticisms would hold true for them.


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## Steve Steele (Oct 6, 2015)

You can demo Digital Performer 9 for 30 days.


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## snattack (Oct 7, 2015)

wcreed51 said:


> The same dongle would be used for VSL software and libraries. I don't think your criticisms would hold true for them.



No, but VSL doesn't offer demos, so I'm not sure it's a valid analogy.

In case you're not planning on buying a VSL or Steinberg product for certain, that means Steinberg is basically charging you $30 for a demo.


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## wcreed51 (Oct 8, 2015)

They offer demos for VE Pro and MIR


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## kitekrazy (Oct 11, 2015)

BTW Finale 95 that came on floppies will run on W7. I think I'm still using 2009. I have Notion but haven't even bothered to use it. BTW is Overture still being developed?


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## d.healey (Oct 11, 2015)

I'm looking forward to seeing what the Reaper guys come up with, although I'd guess we're at least 6 months away from anything being released.


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## Elephant (Oct 11, 2015)

Interesting thread. I have Sibelius, but I am wondering whether there is a way to cut down the amount of DAW editing needed after starting out entering notes in a notation package. and at the moment see the following options - a) Try Al's frontend method, b) use symphonicsamples' Finale extensions with CCC, c) use Noteperformer with Sibelius, and d) use Notion 5. From what little I have listened to, I find symphonicsamples mockups (symphonicsamples.com) sound the best to me sofar as examples of automated playback, if indeed their mockups really are untweaked. Anyone any experience on this aspect ? @nightwatch - as you are the OP please let me know whether you consider this is OK or not in your thread - I put this in as I feel it is related to the state of notation entry and playback, but it's your shout (or the mods) - happy to start a new thread if asked. Cheers ! Elephant


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## wcreed51 (Oct 12, 2015)

Symphonicsamples isn't available yet...


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## Elephant (Oct 12, 2015)

wcreed51 said:


> Symphonicsamples isn't available yet...


 Anyone know when it's due ?


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## wcreed51 (Oct 16, 2015)

Overture 5 is about to become a reality:

http://sonicscores.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15429


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## d.healey (Oct 16, 2015)

wcreed51 said:


> Overture 5 is about to become a reality:
> 
> http://sonicscores.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15429


Oh it's gone to beta! Now we'll only have a couple more years to wait for the release, and then another few years for some bug fixes :D


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## almound (Oct 18, 2015)

With Notion _5.1_, it is possible to open exported audio _stems_ directly into _PreSonus_' Studio One DAW, including automatic track names, volume, pan, rehearsal marks, and initial tempo and time signature information. http://www.presonus.com/news/press_releases/PreSonus-Releases-Notion-51-Update
Yuh-esssss! That's the kind of integration I'm looking for. Keep it up Presonus. And get on the bandwagon Avid, Steinberg, Apple, etc., etc. etc.


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