# Do you still believe in Us (human beings)?



## creativeforge (Apr 2, 2022)

A thoughtful response from Nick Cave to a concerned young father... Healthy food for thought in these tumultuous times, I think... 


​
_*Following the last few years I'm feeling empty and more cynical than ever. I'm losing faith in other people, and I'm scared to pass these feelings to my little son. Do you still believe in Us (human beings)?*_
VALERIO, STOCKHOLM (AND ROME), SWEDEN (AND ITALY)


​
Dear Valerio,

You are right to be worried about your growing feelings of cynicism and you need to take action to protect yourself and those around you, especially your child. Cynicism is not a neutral position — and although it asks almost nothing of us, it is highly infectious and unbelievably destructive. In my view, it is the most common and easy of evils.

I know this because much of my early life was spent holding the world and the people in it in contempt. It was a position both seductive and indulgent. The truth is, I was young and had no idea what was coming down the line. I lacked the knowledge, the foresight, the self-awareness. I just didn’t know. It took a devastation to teach me the preciousness of life and the essential goodness of people. It took a devastation to reveal the precariousness of the world, of its very soul, to understand that it was crying out for help. It took a devastation to understand the idea of mortal value, and it took a devastation to find hope.

Unlike cynicism, hopefulness is hard-earned, makes demands upon us, and can often feel like the most indefensible and lonely place on Earth. Hopefulness is not a neutral position either. It is adversarial. It is the warrior emotion that can lay waste to cynicism. Each redemptive or loving act, as small as you like, Valerio, such as reading to your little boy, or showing him a thing you love, or singing him a song, or putting on his shoes, keeps the devil down in the hole. It says the world and its inhabitants have value and are worth defending. It says the world is worth believing in. In time, we come to find that it is so.

Love, Nick



Source:








Nick Cave - The Red Hand Files - Issue #190 - Following the last few years I'm feeling empty and more cynical than ever. I'm losing faith in other people, and I'm scared to pass these feelings to my little son. Do you still believe in Us (human being


Dear Valerio, You are right to be worried about your growing feelings of cynicism and you need to take action to protect yourself and those...




www.theredhandfiles.com


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 3, 2022)

Talking about cynicism reminds me of this great video by a psychiatrist that I saw a couple days ago. He considers cynicism a likely symptom of burnout, and he makes a compelling case for being able to burn out on pretty much anything without noticing it, including life or hobbies that you truely love. It has given me a lot of food for thought:


----------



## Technostica (Apr 3, 2022)

If you think you are a human being then you are asleep and will suffer because of your ignorance.
To be human is to suffer, or to think you are human is to suffer.
When you know that you are a spiritual being that is temporarily playing the role of a human on this Earthly stage, then life is transformed.
The role we play here is no more our true identity than that of the role an actor plays on stage or screen.

People are behaving the way they are because they are sleep walking.
People that sleep walk are a danger to themselves, yet here we have them running countries and vast organisations.
Climate change is primarily a crisis in consciousness and not ecology.
If we could press a button and eradicate the climate crisis, we'd still be left with a massively dysfunctional bunch of people on Earth, with the attendant war, famine, disease etc.
Climate change is an opportunity for the species to wake up.
So it's not a bad thing in itself.


----------



## Soundhound (Apr 3, 2022)

Growing up in the 60s I thought things would naturally progress, get better. maybe the course of history does bend toward justice but through my lifetime it’s gone the other way and looks like that’s only accelerating. 
Hard to take the long view when all i’ve seen my whole life is regression.


----------



## aeliron (Apr 4, 2022)

Atheist philosopher Richard Rorty framed the problem with succinct starkness:

“The concept of moral obligation [is] unintelligible apart from the idea of God. The words remain but their meaning is gone.”

Or as someone else has expounded, "there can be no objective right and wrong, only our culturally and personally relative, subjective judgments. This means that it is impossible to condemn war, oppression, or crime as evil. Nor can one praise brotherhood, equality, and love as good." And "On this basis, a writer like Ayn Rand is absolutely correct to praise the virtues of selfishness. Live totally for self; no one holds you accountable! Indeed, it would be foolish to do anything else, for life is too short to jeopardize it by acting out of anything but pure self-interest."

As the Athenians said to the Melians, "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must". Before attacking them and executing their men, and selling the rest.

Such a framework seems to tilt towards cynicism. But we nevertheless intuit that something is wrong with that view. We believe in good and evil, love and honor and so on as real and having real value, not just tricks of brain chemistry and survival. The question is, why.


----------



## nolotrippen (Apr 4, 2022)

I lost faith in people a long time ago. My faith in God, however grows apace. John 3:16


----------



## Leigh (Apr 4, 2022)

I've found Dahr Jamail's idea of being "hope-free" to be helpful. Interesting interview with him where he discusses this among many other things: Dahr Jamail Interview.

**Leigh


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 4, 2022)

No.
Humans are neither evil nor good. Seems to be a mess... with a lot of randomness and cognitive distortions. 
Since I will never fathom that mess I have no personal contacts since years without missing it for a second.


----------



## Double Helix (Apr 4, 2022)

Soundhound said:


> Growing up in the 60s I thought things would naturally progress, get better. maybe the course of history does bend toward justice but through my lifetime it’s gone the other way and looks like that’s only accelerating.
> Hard to take the long view when all i’ve seen my whole life is regression.


^^^this^^^
The late, great Steve Allen once said (tongue in cheek) that there is a finite amount of intelligence on the planet. The more the population increases, the less intelligence there is go around.


----------



## Robert_G (Apr 4, 2022)

*'Normal' is NEVER coming back.* The sooner people accept that, the sooner they might perhaps look to Jesus for their redemption instead of searching (unsuccessfully) for it in a broken sinful world.

Repent and believe before it's too late. Call upon the Lord while He can still be found. A time is coming very soon when the deception will be so great that those who don't belong to the Lord will have their hearts melt from the fear that comes upon them.

I've never had faith in people including myself. Our natural tendency is total depravity. When we get rid of the pride of ourselves, we can learn to understand that truth, and how utterly broken and helpless we really are when separated from the Lord.


----------



## tsk (Apr 4, 2022)

Leigh said:


> I've found Dahr Jamail's idea of being "hope-free" to be helpful. Interesting interview with him where he discusses this among many other things: Dahr Jamail Interview.
> 
> **Leigh


That video which you linked to of Dahr Jamail's interview has this in the description:

"Music in this video...Licensed to YouTube by Epidemic Sound"

But it's ok, I already didn't have any faith in humankind, or any life really. So it didn't surprise me that the moral high ground climate reporter has a video interview where the music was licensed from a company that destroys the future prospects of all composers.

Business as usual everyone


----------



## Leigh (Apr 4, 2022)

tsk said:


> That video which you linked to of Dahr Jamail's interview has this in the description:
> 
> "Music in this video...Licensed to YouTube by Epidemic Sound"
> 
> ...


Ick!

**Leigh


----------



## CATDAD (Apr 4, 2022)

I hold faith for humanity; being human myself, to lose faith in humanity means to lose faith in myself. My life from start to finish, cut out of time, is pretty much meaningless, sure. But our actions ripple outward indefinitely, and the universe will continue to exist long after we are all gone. 

I do not believe in the concept of a god. I do not believe my consciousness or memories will exist in the form that I know it after I die. I do not believe doing good things entitles me to receive goodness in return, or vice versa. But I do believe our tiny seeds of hope and actions of good faith will influence the entirety of everything some infinitesimal way, somehow, until the end of time and maybe beyond. 

There is a lot of bad stuff happening in the world, always has been, always will be. But that doesn't mean we can't spend a little extra effort both giving and receiving respite from these horrors now and then while we're here. Even if some of us choose to be oblivious, don't care, or simply don't want to.


----------



## Arbee (Apr 4, 2022)

This is going to sound really dark and doesn't align with my day to day up vibe at all, but sadly I've come to the conclusion that we humans are essentially parasites. Like a giant petri dish, we can sadly watch ourselves proliferate while we smother and suck the life giving resources out of our earthly host, and all the while living in denial and rationalising our behaviour. When I hear economists and politicians still espousing that "we must increase population to grow the economy" I want to scream. And while I sincerely respect those with faith in a higher power, to me it too easily allows us to deflect and become fatalistic about something we should totally own.

Back to normal programming.....


----------



## Wedge (Apr 4, 2022)

Yes. But it seems like every culture, country, or group is on it's own pendulum. And after it swings to betterment of people it will counter and swing towards shit. But it will end up swinging back again. And hopefully overtime it swings a little more towards the good but there of course are evil and oblivious people trying to pull things back down for whatever reasons. But overall things tend to improve, it just takes a lot more time and effort than I feel like it should.


----------



## Pier (Apr 4, 2022)

People used to live in cultural bubbles with shared ideas, beliefs, etc. Now with the internet we're exposed to everyone, everywhere, all the time.

20 years ago, as a dj, I travelled to other countries to discover and buy music in physical formats. Now all the music in the world is almost just a click away.

There's no mystery anymore. We're constantly accessing cultural databases. I mean, look at Twitter or Reddit. These are the biggest databases of human reactions and ideas that have ever existed.

It seems only natural that we would tend to burn out with so much stuff available to us, and become more cynical.


----------



## chocobitz825 (Apr 4, 2022)

nope...

too many chefs in the kitchen.


----------



## sostenuto (Apr 4, 2022)

National media, social media so pervasive. Continuously dividing humanity into smaller segments;
each focused on salient concerns; demands on others. 
Formula for eternal unrest and increasing discord.


----------



## CATDAD (Apr 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> People used to live in cultural bubbles with shared ideas, beliefs, etc. Now with the internet we're exposed to everyone, everywhere, all the time.
> 
> 20 years ago, as a dj, I travelled to other countries to discover and buy music in physical formats. Now all the music in the world is almost just a click away.
> 
> ...


And off of this happened extremely quickly, with little time to adapt to the changes as a fully connected society. This also allows others to quickly find their echo-chambers and continually reinforce their views, for better or for worse.

This universal connectivity is not without its massive upsides, though. With this current conflict with Ukraine along with other similar conflicts, past or present, there now exist channels of information from more viewpoints that didn't before. Propaganda is as strong as ever everywhere, but keeping information out of a dictatorship country is also more difficult than it ever has been. People all around the world are as confused as they ever have been, but some of that confusion is a good thing even if it's uncomfortable to us now.


----------



## chocobitz825 (Apr 4, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> National media, social media so pervasive. Continuously dividing humanity into smaller segments;
> each focused on salient concerns; demands on others.
> Formula for eternal unrest and increasing discord.


People have always been terrible in whatever large or small communities they existed in. We just now have the ability to access them all, 24/7. At its worst, we're reminded of how terrible things are...but at its best, media, and particularly social media has allowed people to find their communities that might not exist near them. a lot of lonely people have found somewhere to belong.


----------



## KEM (Apr 4, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> *'Normal' is NEVER coming back.* The sooner people accept that, the sooner they might perhaps look to Jesus for their redemption instead of searching (unsuccessfully) for it in a broken sinful world.
> 
> Repent and believe before it's too late. Call upon the Lord while He can still be found. A time is coming very soon when the deception will be so great that those who don't belong to the Lord will have their hearts melt from the fear that comes upon them.
> 
> I've never had faith in people including myself. Our natural tendency is total depravity. When we get rid of the pride of ourselves, we can learn to understand that truth, and how utterly broken and helpless we really are when separated from the Lord.



Um, ok…


----------



## Technostica (Apr 4, 2022)

Lower frequencies have larger wavelengths so there are larger gaps between the nodes.
Lower levels of consciousness also give the impression that there are large gaps between us which leads to selfish behaviour.
Very high frequencies have tiny wavelengths and can give a sense of no separation between the nodes.
Higher levels of consciousness show how interconnected we are and the idea of acting selfishly no longer makes sense.

So can the seemingly relatively few people with a higher level of consciousness influence the majority enough to stop them soiling their bed.
The Earth being our collective bed which we are soiling.
So there are a relatively small number of adults that are dealing with billions of children at various levels of growth and maturity.

There is hope because adults have access to power that is not available to children.
This is true at the level of consciousness also.
To understand this fully you have to access higher levels of consciousness yourself.
Reading about it is no substitute as you have no way to discern what is true at higher levels via mere words.
But people generally aren’t aware how ignorant they are in a cosmic sense so they believe any old story that their egoic mind tells them.

The trick is to recognise ones ignorance and don’t allow dogma to tie you down.
The dogmas of science, politics, religion, society etc.
The only thing to rely on is pure awareness and that takes hard work to develop.
We are looking at decades here.
Another thing, whilst walking this decades long path is to choose guides wisely.
I recommend choosing qualities rather than primarily people or organisations.
I choose love, truth, peace, forgiveness, honesty and compassion amongst other things.
If you find other people or organisations that resonate strongly with the qualities that you chose, then that is helpful as it’s much harder by yourself.

Travel well brothers and sisters.
This is but one stage, this Earth.
As magnificent as it is, it’s not our true home.
Be attached to nothing as we are eternal beings.

Peace 
SC
XX


----------



## Trash Panda (Apr 4, 2022)

Is it cynical to believe George Carlin was one the most culturally insightful people in recent history?


----------



## KEM (Apr 4, 2022)

As long as Kanye West is on this earth there will be some glimmer of hope for the human race


----------



## sostenuto (Apr 4, 2022)

KEM said:


> As long as Kanye West is on this earth there will be some glimmer of hope for the human race


Some might say Ye to that. 🧙🏻‍♂️


----------



## chocobitz825 (Apr 4, 2022)

KEM said:


> As long as Kanye West is on this earth there will be some glimmer of hope for the human race





sostenuto said:


> Some might say Ye to that. 🧙🏻‍♂️


Can you say Jeen-Yuhs!?


----------



## KEM (Apr 4, 2022)

chocobitz825 said:


> Can you say Jeen-Yuhs!?



I’m ashamed to admit I’ve only watched episode one, but it was amazing!! Once I get my parents Netflix login I’ll be able to watch the second and third episodes lol


----------



## AudioLoco (Apr 5, 2022)

I like Vista


----------



## MauroPantin (Apr 5, 2022)

I understand the position of most here. I, too, can get cynical from time to time. And who doesn't enjoy a bit of George Carlin or Bill Hicks every now and then to blow some steam?

But...

Supposed you had the choice to be born again, and the only parameter you could alter was "What year would you like to be born in?", everything else being random (as it normally is). The only limit is: You can't choose to be born in the future. What would you choose?

Consider that every, day, every month, every year poverty around the planet is on the downtrend, and quality of life and life expectancy are increasing. Now, granted, there are also setbacks (my country is a big fan of going the other way) but it does not offset the forward momentum of the entire population of planet Earth. 

This is not to say there aren't challenges ahead, or atrocities being committed, or injustices. Those are not going away soon, they are regrettably a part of human nature. But if you look at the REALLY big picture, we humans have done remarkably well in our first 5000 years.

Five thousand years is merely a blink in the scale of the universe and humanity has more than tripled its life expectancy, explored almost every corner of the planet, and learned to manipulate the essence of matter to its benefit (and detriment, as well). We've eradicated diseases, and turned some that would have been a death sentence 200 years ago into a mere inconvenience.

Regardless of how we feel, data suggest that if you had that choice it would be in your best interest to choose to be born this year. Today, if at all possible. Your chances of being born in a home that can care for you, nurture and provide education and opportunities have never been higher. 

This does not mean that the world is perfect. Child labor still exists. Worse things, too. But the trend is for those things to cease to exist over the long term.


----------



## Bluemount Score (Apr 5, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> I like Vista


One of the worst versions of Windows


----------



## Kyle Preston (Apr 5, 2022)

“We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are”

— Leonard Shelby (From _Memento_)


----------



## Dear Villain (Apr 5, 2022)

I recently completed an orchestral music video that depicts my own thoughts on this very subject.


----------



## CATDAD (Apr 5, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> I like Vista


...Consider my faith in humanity finally destroyed!


----------



## tsk (Apr 5, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Talking about cynicism reminds me of this great video by a psychiatrist that I saw a couple days ago. He considers cynicism a likely symptom of burnout, and he makes a compelling case for being able to burn out on pretty much anything without noticing it, including life or hobbies that you truely love. It has given me a lot of food for thought:



I watched the whole video. Funny how this video also used Epidemic Sound for its music. The description of burnout was useful but the solutions don't seem appropriate for people working on their own.


----------



## aeliron (Apr 8, 2022)

The "faith in progress and humanity" thing took a huge nosedive after the two world wars. Technology in itself could not solve the heart of the problem, so to speak.

Rorty's point - irrefutable, really, and has been made by many more - is that without an absolute point of reference beyond ourselves, we can't really call anything horrible, evil, bad, good, better, worse with any real meaning. Our moral pronouncements become not much more than saying "I like/dislike broccoli". As a result, "I hate the war", "Child labor is wrong", etc. all become meaningless statements of personal preference that don't have any moral imperative. The Athenians and Putins might disagree with you, and then who decides who is right ... apart from using force?

Another atheist philosopher, Kai Neilsen, had to admit:

"We have not been able to show that reason requires the moral point of view, or that all really rational persons, unhoodwinked by myth or ideology, need not be individual egoists or classical amoralists. Reason doesn’t decide here. The picture I have painted for you is not a pleasant one. Reflection on it depresses me . . . . Pure practical reason, even with a good knowledge of the facts, will not take you to morality."

Without a moral reference, that's the tension that our society lives with today. We feel that our personal moral stances are universal, but at the same time we are told by Dawkins et al that everything we say and do are just illusions of evolution, just our DNA talking, for its own "selfish gene" purposes, giving us the illusion of meaning. Even Dawkins rejects his own claim, ironically: he believes his love for his family is "real," not just chemistry. But he can't explain why.

TL; DR: Until we accept an absolute reference, it's just ... feelings ... nothing more than feelings.

However, the mere fact that we are moved by the Great Stories such as LOTR, and feel that love, honor, courage, etc. are "real", is perhaps a clue ...


----------



## Technostica (Apr 8, 2022)

I would say that we are Creators, with access to powers way beyond most people's understanding or awareness. 
As Creators, we get to choose our own values. 
If we choose to act selfishly en masse, then that will create one type of society. 
If we choose to treat others in the same way we would like to be treated ourselves, then that will create another type of society. 
That does beg the question about how well we actually treat ourselves though. 
For me, it starts with knowing yourself and that's a long, deep and difficult journey from my experience. 

One of the key findings for me is that I am fully responsible for my experience. 
This goes against the current trend where proclaiming oneself to be a victim leads to a badge of honour being offered. 

I have simplified my intentions down to a polarity of sorts. 
I choose to create from a position of love and all the qualities that come with it. 
I choose to let go of all the qualities that are in the way of love. 
So fear, ignorance and delusions are the main drivers of unloving acts. 
Address these three and a lot of things fall away, including anger and grief.


----------



## aeliron (Apr 8, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> “We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are”
> 
> — Leonard Shelby (From _Memento_)


Reminded me of this:


----------



## Kyle Preston (May 13, 2022)

I believe in this answer:


----------



## Pier (May 13, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> I believe in this answer:



Talking about the secret of life...

Years ago I designed this t-shirt 😂


----------



## tressie5 (May 13, 2022)

Sigh. Unfortunately, I'd given up hope on humanity many moons hence and now prefer to live as a recluse. For years, I tried to emulate Christopher McCandless (Alex Supertramp), my hero. Slowly but surely, I'm getting there.


----------



## Kyle Preston (May 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> Talking about the secret of life...
> 
> Years ago I designed this t-shirt 😂


HA, nice! If you own the rights, you should pop that on Etsy, see if you can get some bread for it.


----------



## Gingerbread (May 13, 2022)

Life has always been horrible for someone, even as others are happy. When the general mood in the US was upbeat and optimistic, other parts of the world were suffering and heading downhill. And vice versa.

The general mood swings like a pendulum. Since 9/11, the western-world sentiment has grown progressively more pessimistic. Our media, movies, and politics reflect that. And I'm sure things will get worse before they get better. But I do believe that the pendulum will swing back toward optimism again. I just don't know how long that will take.


----------



## Double Helix (May 13, 2022)

@Pier I think it was James Taylor who sang "The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time"
(Not to get too maudlin, but at least it's something to strive for)


----------



## mscp (Oct 30, 2022)

KEM said:


> As long as Kanye West is on this earth there will be some glimmer of hope for the human race


Worst joke ever told. Congratulations.


----------



## Alchemedia (Oct 30, 2022)

mscp said:


> Worst joke ever told. Congratulations.


I'm convinced @KEM gets free SKIMS from Kim.


----------



## KEM (Oct 30, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> I'm convinced @KEM gets free SKIMS from Kim.



Not after the divorce I don’t


----------



## Tfis (Nov 1, 2022)

Cynic, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.


----------



## Gerbil (Nov 1, 2022)

Depends entirely what side of the bed I wake up on. Some days, people are good and things aren't that bad Others, I don't want to see another human outside of my family.


----------

