# Working out my orchestral template (EWQLSO, LASS Lite, VSL WW)



## ontrackmusic (Jan 9, 2011)

Hello all...After banging out a handful of short "etudes" to get my feet wet in orchestral composition/virtual orchestration, I decided to try something a bit longer. I was thinking of this sort of like a Hollywood-style overture, or the end-credits from a film. I thought it would be a fun exercise to try to introduce a few different themes/motifs in that vein.

This started out as all EWQLSO Platinum, but (craving some legato performances) I soon after replaced the strings with Lass Lite and a couple of the woodwinds (flute and bassoon) with VSL SE Woodwinds (download version).

So, here's my first real go at this...be gentle on me! (nah, be honest...I can take it):

http://www.erikscull.com/portfolio/assets/audio/Overture-Mix08LASSVSL-020111.mp3 (http://www.erikscull.com/portfolio/asse ... 020111.mp3) (link updated Feb 2: Quicker tempos and a couple of mix tweaks) 

Thanks,
Erik


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## Dracarys (Jan 9, 2011)

Great cue Erik, reminds me of Jerry Goldsmith's mummy in a few places.
The legato' sound good tome.


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## madbulk (Jan 9, 2011)

Honestly? 
I think it's pretty great. Lots of beautiful stuff in there.
Welcome to VI.


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## guayalex (Jan 9, 2011)

Hey I like ite very much. Listened to it a few times now. 

As I'm building my template I'd like you to share some settings (maybe screenshots) of your setup. EQ / Reverb. Especially about the Strings. Only if you have the time of course. 

Great piece. o-[][]-o 

cheers,
Alex


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## Alex Temple (Jan 9, 2011)

I really like the writing overall. I think you do a very good job moving from one mood to another without getting too far from your overall picture. I also think your timing is very appropriate for when you drop the chugging string ostinato and when you bring it back. In particular I like the contrast it gives to your 2nd theme, where having the ostinato (at 0:32) gives it a cheery forward momentum, but where not having it (at 1:22 and the end) turns the theme into a sort of final falling gesture. 

The bassoon solo in the middle marks a pretty substantial change in harmonic language from the material preceding it. By itself I think the conservative, almost baroque language sounds a little out of place, but the way you bring the theme back into the more extended chromatic language at 2:52 is one of my favorite parts of the piece.

As far as the mix and programming is concerned: to me it sounds like you're writing with a very limited selection of articulations. This is good for composing (and it shows) because it doesn't let you get too distracted by making each phrase perfect. If you were to go back now that the piece is finished and drop in some more detailed articulations, I think the performance could really shine.


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## JohnG (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi there ontrack,

This is a marvelous realisation of a very musical piece. I think Alex' advice is right, though. Some of the articulations might do better swapped out (some of the eighth note string chords feel sluggish to me; something lighter would keep it moving).

Three compositional thoughts, if you don't mind. 

1. I would think of speeding the tempos up in the "perkier" bits. They are fine as is but they could go faster.

2. Another suggestion is that you consider "decorating" even more your gestures (cadences, melodic repetitions) with percussion, winds and brass. This kind of music breathes well when the colour is changing all the time, even if it's only the pickup-into-downbeats. Don't forget mutes.

3. Finally, try to use more dissonance. Consonant chords are nice enough, but even in this style, check out Williams or Howard for those extra notes and odd chord changes that can enliven the occasional predictability.

You are clearly a very accomplished writer and I am looking forward to hearing more. I really enjoyed this piece, especially from about 3' to the end. Excellent!


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## Hannes_F (Jan 9, 2011)

A tip on the hat for the writing, very enjoyeable.

And it has drive :mrgreen:


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## ontrackmusic (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks so much everyone for the positive comments and great suggestions! I may take a few days off from this piece (I've been working on it for what seems like forever...) and come back to it armed with some fresh ears and these suggestions. 

@JohnG and AlexT: Thanks so much for your thoughtful analyses. It's amazing to hear you echo many of the _exact_ concerns I worked through and debated about as I developed this from its original piano mock-up to its present state. And indeed, although I have a lot of articulations available in Symphonic Orchestra, I tended to stick with the basics for most of this while figuring out my workflow. Time (and money!) permitting, I do plan on refining and adding to my collection of (and implementation of) sampled articulations.

@guayalex: I'll be happy to share a bit about what I've learned putting my template together. I'll try to put a screen-capture together, but in the meantime here are the broad strokes:


I'm using Reaper as my sequencer (my primary DAW is Pro Tools, but there are some features I really wanted in a sequencer that PT lacks--track folders primarily--so I tried Reaper and really love it for sequencing).

I decided not to use keyswitches, but instead put each articulation on a separate track under a folder (The exception to this is the new VSL instruments--I've only had them for a few days, but I'm using the VSL player to switch articulations on one midi channel...their forte). So in Reaper my track folders are arranged by Instrument Family > Instrument > Articulation. This helps with mixing and organization.

For the strings, I'm using LASS Lite + FC (although I don't think I layered in any FC here). I love LASS, but I do wrestle a bit with the swells in the samples creating a bit of a "pumping" effect in the legato lines. I had to go back and do a lot of massaging of CC1 and CC11 to smooth some of that out. I used the Legato LP Speed P patches for all legatos, but to help offset the swells in the samples, I layered in the sordino patches behind the legatos.

I have one instance of Kontakt for each string instrument (vln 1, vln 2, vla, vcl, cb) with all articulations loaded.

Switching from the EWQLSO strings to LASS, I initially missed a bit of that big romantic sound. But I found that adding an exciter here and there (especially the cellos to get that "burn" in the low-end) helped get back to that sound. I left the LASS EQs at their defaults in Kontakt.

Reverb proved to be a challenge, and I'm still not completely satisfied to be honest (but I guess that's the way it should be!). LASS and the VSL samples are very dry, as opposed to the EWQLSO samples which are very wet (perhaps I should've used the "Close" mics instead of the "Mains". Maybe I'll try that someday...). My current reverb plug is the old Waves IR-1 plugin...I ended up finding an impulse that blends fairly well with natural sound of the EW hall ("SOH Concert Hall (Row K, Seat 26, Stalls)").

A bit of multiband compression from Reaper on the final mix and that's about it.
I'll try to do a quick screen-capture if I get a chance...


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## guayalex (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Erick,

thanks so much for such a detailed explanation!!! When I'm ready with my template in 1 or to weeks I'll post that as well. I've also been frustrated with Reverb since years and years and still wonder if I ever will get that working. It's interesting that suddenly they came up with an Quatnum Leap IR-Plug containing the EWQL-Hall. 

http://www.soundsonline.com/Spaces/?id= ... 2e0bcddde2

How long have I searched to simulate that one for example. I can't judge how close your IR1-Impulse is but it sounds great to me all in all. Meanwhile I'm mixing so many different "rooms" cause of EWQL, Symphobia & Sam Brass along with dryer libraries like vsl. So it's getting difficult. 

As Lass is not that dra like vsl I'm asking myself and you :wink: Do you think Lass has enough ER's so that it's enough adding a little tail or did you put some Early reflections on them? 

Cheers,
Alex


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## guayalex (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Erick,

thanks so much for such a detailed explanation!!! When I'm ready with my template in 1 or to weeks I'll post that as well. I've also been frustrated with Reverb since years and years and still wonder if I ever will get that working. It's interesting that suddenly they came up with an Quatnum Leap IR-Plug containing the EWQL-Hall. 

http://www.soundsonline.com/Spaces/?id= ... 2e0bcddde2

How long have I searched to simulate that one for example. I can't judge how close your IR1-Impulse is but it sounds great to me all in all. Meanwhile I'm mixing so many different "rooms" cause of EWQL, Symphobia & Sam Brass along with dryer libraries like vsl. So it's getting difficult. 

As Lass is not that dra like vsl I'm asking myself and you :wink: Do you think Lass has enough ER's so that it's enough adding a little tail or did you put some Early reflections on them? 

Cheers,
Alex


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## Lex (Jan 12, 2011)

Great writing, great sound.

Only thing sticking out is lack of legato on horns and trumpets, but nothing you can do about it with your current tools.

thanks for sharing!


aLex


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## Lunatique (Jan 12, 2011)

You know what guys, I want to say something I don't think has been said around here before. I love the idea of composers helping each other and giving feedback, but I think there's another aspect that I love just as much, and that is when really knowledgeable and experienced composers give their feedback. I can learn a lot from just listening to the music and reading their critique--often they are things I may not have picked up on on my own due to lack of experience or musical knowledge. So for that, I really appreciate it.

Erik - How do you like Reaper's MIDI editing in comparison to PT's? Does it leave you wanting for more advanced MIDI editing capabilities?


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## paoling (Jan 13, 2011)

Great Cue! Wonderful theme, I like it very much, it has a chromatic behaviour that reminds me to JW, but also to Prokofiev harmony. I like that Eb in the theme that jokes with the listener (we're not in G! but neither in Bb!)...

For your issues with LASS swells you can try to add a little of compression, just a little. Volume swells of sound libraries are often to much for our needs, so you can tame them a bit with a very very subtle compression (i used it when making my EW HS based template, comparing them to real recordings).


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## hbuus (Jan 13, 2011)

Very enjoyable to listen to! You are a gifted composer.
Thanks for sharing.

Best,
Henrik


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## Frank Luchs (Feb 2, 2011)

Unfortunately the link above is dead.

If we talk about the first song on this page,
http://www.erikscull.com/portfolio/music/index.php,
it was a pleasure to listen.

I should come here more often for expedition.


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## ontrackmusic (Feb 2, 2011)

Frank...Thanks for catching that. I reorganized my website a bit last night, and uploaded a newer, slightly faster version of the piece. Indeed, the piece you found on my music page is the one. Thanks for listening and for your kind remarks!


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## Casey Edwards (Feb 2, 2011)

That was an outstanding cue man! It kept my interest the whole time. Very good work of melody writing and development of your thematic material.


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## lux (Feb 3, 2011)

yes, a cool piece and themes. I think you can get work a bit those nasal horn lines avoiding touching some highest velocity layers and adjustin up the volume so that the section volume fits it despite the lower velocity layer.

Also there are so many horns patches in Ewqlso that it worths trying something different. if the duration isnt too long i tend to use a lot the 1sec marcato (not sure thats the name) in the "short" section. As they are one of the very few articulations which dont have that nasal appeal.

Keep posting nice music
Luca


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