# Do We Go Overboard With Plug-ins?



## robgb (Jul 29, 2018)

I once had a ton. When I switched computers, I only bothered installing a couple and have downloaded a few free ones and bought some here in there. But I've really pared down to almost nothing, because I found that, with a couple of exceptions, the plug-ins in my DAW were all I really needed.

What do you think?

https://www.recordingrevolution.com/why-plugins-are-the-worst-investment-in-your-studio/


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## Akarin (Jul 29, 2018)

Random comment on the video: 2mins to say that "in some cases, having too many plugins can be detrimental but in some cases there's a new one that you like, install it and use it." WTF?


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## rrichard63 (Jul 29, 2018)

Recent related thread:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/according-to-cantible-i-have-3-600-vst.73325/


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 29, 2018)

You're supposed to get a new phone every year. Every other year at the latest, because apparently, the current one suddenly doesn't do it any more. It's the same with plug-ins. It's an industry. I think it's full of woo-woo. I will go out on a limb and claim that even a lot of full-blown pros suffer from a lot of tunnel vision and placebo.

I think for most people it's absolutely sufficient to find the ones that work for them, sound good and are fun to work with. And that's it. It also takes a lot of time to really learn a plug-in - learn to listen to what it does and gain some practical experience with it you can rely on. I always end up coming back to the same few I almost always use.


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## robgb (Jul 29, 2018)

Akarin said:


> Random comment on the video: 2mins to say that "in some cases, having too many plugins can be detrimental but in some cases there's a new one that you like, install it and use it." WTF?


LOL, good point.


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## Divico (Jul 29, 2018)

Im currently on vaccation at my parents place having just my laptop. Using just a few plugins I have installled here feels really good. Imo there is a lot of otherthinking going on. Especially when it comes to EQs. 
Some people claim that all EQs are the same and its just about saturation and unclear parameter labeling ....


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## lastmessiah (Jul 29, 2018)

Plug-ins seem to be targeted at preset surfers. Especially software synthesizers - just go to the KVR forums to see what I mean. These guys are buying hundreds of synth plugins to play the same cheesy EDM/dubstep sounds, nothing that isn't achievable in Ableton or any other DAW with native devices. 

I personally don't like to use plugins unless it's something I absolutely can't accomplish natively, which is very rare. Bitwig Studio is really great for sound design, all of the devices are streamlined to work coherently with each other (not to mention the modulation capabilities) and I would hate to taint the workflow by loading up some bloated plugin. 

I think the only VST things I'm using regularly are Play, Equator, and Pianoteq.


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## Henu (Jul 29, 2018)

No.

For mixing, it's a toolbox. Would we say to a car mechanic that he's having too many wrenches and that adjustable monkey one should be enough?


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## ceemusic (Jul 29, 2018)

tools are tools. Use what you need, buy what you need.


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## robgb (Jul 29, 2018)

Henu said:


> No.
> 
> For mixing, it's a toolbox. Would we say to a car mechanic that he's having too many wrenches and that adjustable monkey one should be enough?


No. But does he need twenty?


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## MarcelM (Jul 29, 2018)

robgb said:


> No. But does he need twenty?



no, but he would work with the best tools he has i think.


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## robgb (Jul 29, 2018)

Heroix said:


> no, but he would work with the best tools he has i think.


Of course. And learn those tools better than any others. But he really only needs a few to do the job. And if he keeps buying new tools, hoping for better results, maybe his time would be better spent on practicing his plumbing skills.


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## JEPA (Jul 29, 2018)

a healthy way would be to erase old plugins that we don't use...


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## paulmatthew (Jul 29, 2018)

Doesn’t to hurt to have 2 or 3 of each type of plugin due to saturation differences for example some eqs have different q shapes, slopes and freq areas , some are more all around and some are more surgical . It does get to a point though when you’re looking through your plugin list and wondering why you have this or that. Delays, saturation and reverb plugins can be vastly different and be effective for certain styles or effect that you’re going for . To each their own I guess .


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## JohnG (Jul 29, 2018)

I bought a UAD card years ago in a fire sale, and the latest Soundtoys bundle more recently, and a few things besides that, and Pro Tools came w /a number too, which I’ve not explored.

Consequently I have more Sfx than inclination to learn them myself, but then an engineer comes in and is happy to have what he prefers. 

I don’t really mind having extras; I find that I go through phases (har-har) of using favourites, only to migrate to different ones from my collection at other times.

Restlessness of a particular kind I guess. Also I keep changing genres, and you can’t use the Space Echo on everything.


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## Eckoes (Jul 30, 2018)

I have enough. I’m not even a good mix engineer!

I purchased Sound Toys 5, a couple Waves console emulations and reverbs, a bundle from Toneboosters. I also have the few that came with Komplete 10 and a whole bunch of free ones I’ve downloaded over the years.

I find myself still looking at sales and even putting things in my shopping cart but then the voice of reason says, “you don’t need that!” and I move on.

I have enough. Too many even! I use most of them and I’m getting the hang of it but....I have enough to last me the rest of my life.


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## Henu (Jul 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> No. But does he need twenty?



Let's say 15 of them are different sizes, and the rest may be the most usual sizes but have different handles- for example, one might have a 90 degree handle and one has an extra long handle. But you probably get the point. 

If I just take only the compressor plugins for just a rock band mix as an example...

LA2A-styled for smooth compression for vocals and bass.
1176-styled for direct drums, bass and sometimes vocals if you want more aggressiveness.
LA3A- styled for guitars and anything that needs to be brought even more in your face.
Fabfilter Pro-C for extremely transparent work (very uneven vocals for example).
Cubase's own compressor for quick and easy sidechain purposes.
Kush Audio's Novatron for mastering and fattening the bass with harmonics.
Waves Renaissance Compressor for giving vocals transparent evening BUT with some character and aggressiveness.
API2500, dbx or SSL-styled for drum bus punch and glue.
SSL-styled or Vari-Mu for master bus glue.

And this is just a tip of the iceberg. Many of the compressors have completely different characteristics, some bring more harmonics, some may even EQ things a bit, but technically there are your "monkey wrenches" and then there are those specific tools for sound and tone shaping. And knowing how to use them all is the key to something sounding good instead of just sounding ok.

Personally, I don't buy plugins anymore that often but I do have quite a lot of them. Some of them I refuse to work without, some I can live without (but achieving the results without them is slower and more inefficient) and some are completely obsolete due to the fact that some other plugin does the job better nowadays.


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## Henu (Jul 30, 2018)

JEPA said:


> a healthy way would be to erase old plugins that we don't use...



I do that all the time. In Cubase you can have different plugin "sets", and mine at work looks quite like this at the moment. (At home I have more of the plugins, which are missing from the work set)
I've also divided the plugins more accurately into their own groups depending on their purposes: For example, the EQ section is split with "surgical, emulation and analog-styled" groups.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 30, 2018)

Henu said:


> LA2A-styled for smooth compression for vocals and bass.
> 1176-styled for direct drums, bass and sometimes vocals if you want more aggressiveness.
> LA3A- styled for guitars and anything that needs to be brought even more in your face.
> Fabfilter Pro-C for extremely transparent work (very uneven vocals for example).
> ...



Yeah, I mean, everyone knows this rap. But honestly, so many times I feel these observations are as often a bunch of truisms as they are valid. As if you _had_ to put the 1176 on drums because everyone keeps parroting this stuff. As if you couldn't beef up your drums with another great compressor. Perhaps with the same one you also used on another track or bus, because it just gets the job done. As if the listener cared. The distinction is between "_1176 is great on drums_" and "_you *need* the 1176 if you wanna compress drums!_"

Sure, if that's just your style and you really know and love the combo, of course, you put the 1176 on the drums because that's what you know and love. But it becomes this perpetual mantra: oh, you need the 1176 for drums, the Teletronix for the vox, the Fairchild for the glue, and all this stuff. Like a checkbox for the serious (or posing-as-serious) audio dude. There's nothing wrong with using either of these, but people tend to create these myths around stuff and GAS is a thing.


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## DS_Joost (Jul 30, 2018)

I have a lot, but just ignore the ones I don't use. I used to hoard plugins like crazy, but I barely buy them anymore. Reason for this is that there are not a lot of plugins that actually have a unique or even great sound.

I lastly bought Soundtoys 5. I bought them because they were the only ones in years where I went 'whoa!'


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## robgb (Jul 30, 2018)

Henu said:


> LA2A-styled for smooth compression for vocals and bass.
> 1176-styled for direct drums, bass and sometimes vocals if you want more aggressiveness.
> LA3A- styled for guitars and anything that needs to be brought even more in your face.
> Fabfilter Pro-C for extremely transparent work (very uneven vocals for example).
> ...


I see your point, but I suspect that you could whittle this down to two or three compressors at most and get either a) the same results; or b) results so similar that in a blind test you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And I can guarantee your listeners won't.

That said, if you want to spend your money on all these compressors because you feel it makes your job easier, more power to you. For me, I found that despite having twenty compressors, I usually only used a couple of them regularly anyway, so I dumped the rest during my computer transition.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 30, 2018)

I thought I needed more, but I found them useless, I even own the Waves Gold bundle. I really only use the stock plugins that come with Logic and Cubase...and EW Spaces for reverb sometimes. They all do the same thing, just pick a few and learn them well.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 30, 2018)

I've done the Kompletes, Waves etc. I'm down to just stock Logic (it's a beast) and Kontakt. Oh, and the Spitfire Labs.

Really don't feel I'm missing out as I still can't work it all yet. Not by far. (Logic's Alchemy is like taking the red pill.)
FWIW, making music and money with this setup. Never happier. It's not for everyone and I'm not presenting it as the "best way." But it was my way of getting a clearer headspace.

Edit: When I'm using "room" type libraries like Spitfire and read about the crazy exotic signal chains that have been used to record the instruments...my thought is always "why mess it up with plugins?"


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## chrisphan (Jul 30, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> play the same cheesy EDM/dubstep sounds, nothing that isn't achievable in Ableton or any other DAW with native devices.


I feel dumb whenever getting in an online argument, but I think you should refrain from making an umbrella statement on genres that you don't understand well. Of course there are bad examples in every genre but I would say the most innovative sound designs usually come from the world of EDM (hate that term, btw) first before other genres. including hybrid orchestra, copy them. "Hundreds of synths" does sound excessive, however.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 30, 2018)

JohnG said:


> ..and you can’t use the Space Echo on everything.


Normally I agree with your posts John, but I strongly disagree with this. Space Echo can and must be used on everything. E.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g.


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## Quasar (Jul 30, 2018)

I think the whole plugin market is one huge snake oil pit.

Not that many or most of the plugs themselves are terrible, or don't more or less do what is claimed. There are lots of terrific plugs out there. The problem is that there are so many hundreds of companies selling so many thousands of products, and the marketeers want them to be _bought_, so every EQ or compressor is hyped-up to be somehow "game-changing" or unique in ways that simply aren't true.

And much of the pricing is based on nothing more than branding, so I am especially leery of high priced plugins. Not because they aren't good, but they're not necessarily better than a cheaper alternative. And even if they are, the law of diminishing returns kicks in really fast. Just my 2p.


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## Henu (Jul 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> As if you _had_ to put the 1176 on drums because everyone keeps parroting this stuff



Well, you have no idea how many times I tend to find my own solutions instead of using the "proved to work" concept, haha! Many times I might try something people suggest, but usually I try to find something different instead...it's a bad habit, really.

To be honest, I only recently started using the Waves 1176 on (single) drums after trying a dozen times using Slate's equivalent and hating it every time, going back to whatever fast and snappy VCA instead which sucked the life out of the drums. The moment I switched to the Waves version I understood why people keep saying it works. Because for me, it really worked and I have been using it since.

Also, these were very rough examples to prove Rob my point. Sure, you can use an LA2A on a kick if it sounds good and a snappy dbx on your guitar if you wish. But for example, you missed completely the examples of transparency, harmonics and other things I gave examples of, just pointing out that "boo-hoo, everyone knows that you should use an SSL on a drum bus". 
And as you perhaps noticed, I used pretty dumbed down examples on purpose, so if you feel you're above them, there's probably plenty of room at Gearslutz discussing the differencies about various transistors instead.


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## Henu (Jul 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> I see your point, but I suspect that you could whittle this down to two or three compressors at most and get either a) the same results; or b) results so similar that in a blind test you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.



Sure, just pick up the Fabfilter one and you're good to go for most of the things. It's very versatile and gets a lot of done. The thing just is that it takes quite much of time to actually make it do so instead of just switching into a different compressor and dialing the desired sound way faster.



robgb said:


> And I can guarantee your listeners won't.



I agree on that, but you may agree with me that these things tend to cumulate. One missing 1176 isn't really make it or break it, that's for sure. But using only the basic Cubase compressor or channel EQ on everything will definitely make the job a bit harder in order to have a sound with some character.



robgb said:


> For me, I found that despite having twenty compressors, I usually only used a couple of them regularly anyway, so I dumped the rest during my computer transition.



I don't know how much you do mixing outside of your own works, but I also mix for living (besides composing), so I really want my toolbox to be as versatile as possible. Besides, I'm pretty sure that if we turned this discussion into sample libraries, most people would have a thousand arguments why many libraries are better than just the two we _regularly_ use.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 30, 2018)

Henu said:


> Well, you have no idea how many times I tend to find my own solutions instead of using the "proved to work" concept, haha! Many times I might try something people suggest, but usually I try to find something different instead...it's a bad habit, really.
> 
> To be honest, I only recently started using the Waves 1176 on (single) drums after trying a dozen times using Slate's equivalent and hating it every time, going back to whatever fast and snappy VCA instead which sucked the life out of the drums. The moment I switched to the Waves version I understood why people keep saying it works. Because for me, it really worked and I have been using it since.



One relevant point to add to this discussion: I do generally reach for the 1176 on drums, haha.


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## Wally Garten (Jul 30, 2018)

Henu said:


> To be honest, I only recently started using the Waves 1176 on (single) drums after trying a dozen times using Slate's equivalent and hating it every time, going back to whatever fast and snappy VCA instead which sucked the life out of the drums. The moment I switched to the Waves version I understood why people keep saying it works. Because for me, it really worked and I have been using it since.



This is often the thing -- you accumulate tools, not because you use all of them regularly, but because it takes a while to find that ones that work and that you _want_ to use regularly.

(That said, I almost always start with the Logic standard mixing plugins and only move to something else if the basic plugins aren't working for me, or if I know I want some particular weird thing--usually Soundtoys, although I also use Audiority's Xenoverb a lot. But the basic DAW tools get me pretty far -- plus at this point I know them.)


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## wst3 (Jul 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> I see your point, but I suspect that you could whittle this down to two or three compressors at most and get either a) the same results; or b) results so similar that in a blind test you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And I can guarantee your listeners won't.



My ears only, of course, but from that list - ok, from the plugins on that list that I own - there is no duplication.


LA2 - a tube based compressor with fixed ratios and time constants, it used an optical element for gain change. It was marketed as a leveler.
LA3 - a solid state version of the LA2
LA4 - a more refined(?) version of the LA3 and this was marketed as a compressor/limiter.
1176 - there are many variations, but the big deal here is they used an FET as the gain element
dBX 160 - one of my favorites, this used a VCA as the gain element.
Vari-Mu, Altec 438, Fairchild 670, etd - these use a tube as the gain element. Variable Mu refers to varying the gain of the tube. Pretty cool actually.
Neve compressors - all of them really, they are second only to the LA2a in terms of smooth.
SSL - the only one I really like is the buss compressor, and it is a beast.

The only Waves compressor I use is the C4, and I use it precisely because it does not model anything, it is its own thing. I understand the Pro-C is similar. I also still use the Voxengo Crunchessor when I don't want an emulation.

I don't own any of the others.

In fact I don't even use everything on my list.

I use the dBX 160 and the Urei LA3a and the 1176 because that's what I used when hardware was the only game in town. I know them, I know how they are supposed to react, and I find the UAD versions to be pretty darned accurate. And I'd love a really accurate LA4 emulation (are you listening UA?)

I've tried the Distressor emulations, and they are really good. I haven't felt the need to buy it though.

You are absolutely correct that listeners can't tell the difference in a mix, and do not care at all. Not one whit.

I can hear the difference on a track, and sometimes in a mix, but I know that the treatment of the track can affect the mix even if I can't explain why. To that end I will keep my tiny arsenal of compressors.

Don't even get me started on filters, or delays, or...


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## Henu (Jul 30, 2018)

wst3 said:


> Neve compressors - all of them really, they are second only to the LA2a in terms of smooth.



Speaking of which, I still haven't found any proper use for the Waves Neve comp emulation. I've tried it on master bus on softer, jazzy stuff but that's all. Where do you usually implement it yourself?

Also +1 on dbx, I'm a massive fan and I even love their newer (hardware) products. :D


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## Jacob Cadmus (Jul 30, 2018)

+1 for Logic plugins. I threw away my T-Racks bundle and all my reverbs (Valhalla, B2) since making the switch. Chromaverb has got me won over, expectedly for glue and *especially* for ambient post-rock, but unexpectedly became my go-to room reverb as well.


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## pderbidge (Jul 30, 2018)

I think the point of this topic is not whether having a lot of plugins is useful but that it's easy to get in the trap of hoarding plugins to the point that you aren't forced to get the most out of what you already have and master them. Sometimes, limiting yourself forces you to think more creatively about how you are going to approach something with just a few tools. Same goes for Samples etc... As long as we're not wasting our time away researching or learning new plugins where we could be better served harnessing our skills then it's not a problem but I know from personal experience that having more has distracted me a bit and I have not been as productive as I could have been with less. Plugin hoarding can be a big time waster. There is a balance somewhere and I'm constantly trying to find that balance.


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## JEPA (Jul 30, 2018)

somebody tested Water & Cream from Acustica Audio?


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## gsilbers (Jul 30, 2018)

Overboard? ... nah.. not at all


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## GtrString (Jul 30, 2018)

Who does the “we” include?
If you work with clients, they sometimes have faves you should have.
If you run a project studio, various genres require different tools. That can justify an arsenal of plugins.
Also if you are experiential of nature, and you are trying out a bunch of stuff, it can make sense.

But it does seem, with so much stuff coming out all the time, it is getting harder and harder to become “experienced”, like when there were fewer and much more expensive tools. Then you became someone when you could master your 1176 or la2a, but now those comes stock with your daw.

So it is an impossible quest to achieve some sort of “experienced” producer identity from stocking up plugins.


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## MarcusD (Jul 31, 2018)

You dont need 100 colours to paint a beautiful picture, you could do it with 1. But it wouldn't be as interesting. Every plugin sounds slightly different, varitity is the spice of life. Having lots of colours to choose from helps craft your sound and identity. More importantly you can pick your tools to enhance the mood of the music.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 31, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> Overboard? ... nah.. not at all


You must love macOS upgrades!


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## robgb (Jul 31, 2018)

MarcusD said:


> You dont need 100 colours to paint a beautiful picture, you could do it with 1. But it wouldn't be as interesting. Every plugin sounds slightly different, varitity is the spice of life. Having lots of colours to choose from helps craft your sound and identity. More importantly you can pick your tools to enhance the mood of the music.


There are three primary colors. Mix them correctly and you'll get any color you want.


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## MarcusD (Jul 31, 2018)

robgb said:


> There are three primary colors. Mix them correctly and you'll get any color you want.


Paint and software emulated hardware are completely different....


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## Morning Coffee (Jul 31, 2018)

I have way more than I need, mainly because I have bought them at good prices when on sale over the years, because I didn't want to, 'miss out' But really, I am of the less is more principle, a few good plugins with good knowledge of how to use them is what matters I think. I am trying to stick with channel strip type plugins. 

My computer is 10 years old now and can no longer be updated to the latest operating system, so after any end of year sales this year, I am not upgrading anything for a while unless my computers dies!


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## robgb (Jul 31, 2018)

MarcusD said:


> Paint and software emulated hardware are completely different....


It was your analogy.


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## wst3 (Jul 31, 2018)

robgb said:


> There are three primary colors. Mix them correctly and you'll get any color you want.


It's a poor analogy, but it comes up often. Maybe we can put it to rest?

There are a number of differences between audible and visible information.

Audio is a stream of singular sensory data, images can be static or a stream, but even the stream can be stopped for for viewing of a static image. Audio can not be stopped - well it can (think sampling or granular synthesis) but it has limited usefulness.

Audio covers a bandwidth of 1000:1 (approx 60 dB), images have a bandwidth of 2:1, (approx 6 dB)

Audio covers a dynamic range of 1,000,000:1, visual perception has a dynamic range of about 1,000:1.
There is some disagreement on the dynamic range for visual perception.
A healthy ear is capable of perceiving a dynamic range of 120 dB, but in real life (anywhere other than an anechoic chamber) the usable dynamic range is more like in the 80 dB (10,000:1) range.

There are similarities too:

both exhibit logarithmic perception in an otherwise linear world
both are solitary, that is no two people experience either one identically
And that's the general case. For the analogy of colors applied to images and sounds we have identified three primary visible colors, we are no where near identifying three, or any number, of audible colors. We don't even understand, completely, how er experience different non-linearities.

I'm not trying to make light of the argument, just suggesting that we need a more accurate analogy to make the case (one way or the other), and no, I have no suggestions. (Hate it when that happens.)


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## robgb (Jul 31, 2018)

wst3 said:


> It's a poor analogy, but it comes up often. Maybe we can put it to rest?


Agreed. But it wasn't my analogy—I was merely playing along. So, yeah, I'm all too happy to put it to rest.

The point, of course, is if you know how to use basic plugins -- compression, EQ, delay, reverb -- they all, generally, work the same. Sure some are better than others, and some simulate beloved hardware, and those can be useful. But they still generally do the same thing, so having three hundred plugins is really not going to make your world better. Ultimately, you'll boil your arsenal down to a few reliable plugins and the rest will remain idle.


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## Prockamanisc (Jul 31, 2018)

The biggest thing that's helped me not buy plugins is to buy hardware of the plugins that I use the most. Now when I go to buy a plugin, I think "I could buy this compressor, or I could be 10% closer to buying a real API 2500". And then it forces me to use the same hardware all the time.


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## MarcusD (Jul 31, 2018)

robgb said:


> It was your analogy.



Yes, but your response implies you only need 1 eq, 1 comp or 1 saturation plug to do everything. 

You cant just "mix" 3 together and recreate every sound and nuance of different hardware....which is why people like having different versions of tools that do the same thing because of their unique flavours.

My point is having a collection of tools gives you a wider pallet of colour to work with and give you more artistic choices. You can do the job with stock plugs, but form an artistic point of view, its good to have lots of textures and colours to work with.


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## robgb (Jul 31, 2018)

MarcusD said:


> Yes, but your response implies you only need 1 eq, 1 comp or 1 saturation plug to do everything.


Sigh. I give up. Really. It's impossible to have a discussion when you take things so literally and I suspect we'll just go back and forth with this a dozen times and nothing will change. I've said what I have to say. You either understand me or you don't. I'll take the blame for not making myself clear.

Go in peace.


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## MarcusD (Jul 31, 2018)

robgb said:


> Sigh. I give up. Really. It's impossible to have a discussion when you take things so literally and I suspect we'll just go back and forth with this a dozen times and nothing will change. I've said what I have to say. You either understand me or you don't. I'll take the blame for not making myself clear.
> 
> Go in peace.


 
Its impossible to have a discussion with some one who is not open to having one in the first place. Unless it suits them.


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## robgb (Jul 31, 2018)

MarcusD said:


> Its impossible to have a discussion with some one who is not open to having one in the first place. Unless it suits them.


We've been having the discussion since the beginning of this thread, which is now three pages long. It isn't a matter of "suiting" me. It's a matter of realizing that even when I use your own analogy to make my point, you're not really interested in what I have to say, you just want to argue. So go ahead and argue. I've stated my case, more than once, and you don't have to agree. Everyone is different.

You can have the last word. I'm done.

Peace.


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## Jacob Cadmus (Jul 31, 2018)

MarcusD said:


> Paint and software emulated hardware are completely different....



I may have to disagree. Does anyone remember MS Paint?


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## MarcusD (Jul 31, 2018)

robgb said:


> We've been having the discussion since the beginning of this thread, which is now three pages long. It isn't a matter of "suiting" me. It's a matter of realizing that even when I use your own analogy to make my point, you're not really interested in what I have to say, you just want to argue. So go ahead and argue. I've stated my case, more than once, and you don't have to agree. Everyone is different.
> 
> You can have the last word. I'm done.
> 
> Peace.



Funny thing is Im not even arguing with you Rob. I was just posting an opion. It wasnt directed at you or anyone in particular. No disrespect to you, but sometimes your choice of words can rub people the wrong way. You have very strong opinions and i feel sometimes unless peoples opinions match yours, you treat them differently. Which is how I feel sometimes when you respond to me.

Lets both agree, we are not here to poke at each other, i'm most certainly not going out of my way to insult you in anway (or anyone for that matter) but if you feel that way im sorry.

Its all healthy to discuss and object. But lets both refrain from unessesary drama.


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## robgb (Jul 31, 2018)

MarcusD said:


> Its all healthy to discuss and object. But lets both refrain from unessesary drama.


Fair enough. There's too damn much unnecessary drama here and on the Internet in general lately, and I admit I can be touchy. My apologies.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 31, 2018)

Just think Reason users entered this madness. Even when they had overpriced REs some have spent $$$ and they can't be resold. When you enter the forums of Reason users there's always a mention of every free plugin that's out there. It reminds me of the attitude when I was using Sonar and it finally had VST support. I downloaded every free VST out there.

It often starts with "that's $1.72 for each plugin" when it comes to bundles. There are many smaller developers that offer quality and value these days the larger ones are more competitive. There are even more quality free ones as well.

I always admire the budget DAW users who cranks out great stuff on youtube just using what's in the DAW. 

Discussing soft synths requires its own thread.


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## gsilbers (Jul 31, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> You must love macOS upgrades!



Lol it’s a whole gig onitself. That and hd failures where many plugins need to be reinstall instead of working from backup.


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## gsilbers (Jul 31, 2018)

Also btw- a lot of the plugins I get comes from bundles that have been discounted. Like I like a multi band distortion that costs $60 but the bundle of 9 plugins is $90 and the others seems interesting as well.


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## tmhuud (Jul 31, 2018)

I’ll bet you have all the PLUGGOS too?

https://cycling74.com/downloads/discontinued


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## JEPA (Jul 31, 2018)

tmhuud said:


> I’ll bet you have all the PLUGGOS too?
> 
> https://cycling74.com/downloads/discontinued


don't work any more on Sierra or High Sierra...


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## JEPA (Jul 31, 2018)

if you could change *ALL of your plugins* for a piece of hardware, what piece of hardware would be in your studio?... and the winner is:
?________


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## Henu (Jul 31, 2018)

Sure! I'll have any SSL 4k.


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## tmhuud (Jul 31, 2018)

JEPA said:


> don't work any more on Sierra or High Sierra...



Sadly, your right, the only reason I keep an old system running next an updated one is for “the old ones.”


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## Saxer (Jul 31, 2018)

I think every plugin you use it ok. Every plugin you don't use is too much. But you have to have a collection to choose from to know which ones you will use in a long term. So you have to go overboard with plugins to narrow down to your final selection. Paradoxon. First world problems.


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## camelot (Aug 7, 2018)

I did a lot of sound design starting around 20 years ago. But over the years I moved more and more away from electronic sounds to acoustic instruments. I just got bored by electronic sounds.
When the big wave of audio plug-ins started, I got a bit crazy as well, as they did not take up any space in the studio and they were so much cheaper than the outboard gear. Suddenly, I was able to run a working setup only with a computer,a good interface and some active near fields or headphones from a desk at home. Incredible! I really stripped down my setup over the years, almost no hardware has left now. 
But quickly, getting new plug-ins became a disappointment as they did not add something new. I could achieve the same with what I already had and the big hype about "the extraordinary sound" of a particular item raised my expectations, which were never met. Just recently, I tried a demo of Relab's VSR S24 and I had a lot of expectations due to its high praise. It's a really fine reverb, but it did not changed something for me.
After the change to 64bit, many plugs did not make it. Right now I am down to mostly Cubase stock and VSL suite. There are already loads of different eqs, comps and reverbs in Cubase alone and they are of really high quality. Aside from these, I do not really need so much effects anymore.
I rather spend more time creating quality content in the first place instead of fiddeling around with plug-ins.


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## premjj (Aug 8, 2018)

still_lives said:


> Warning: Unpopular opinion.
> 
> I often see/hear talk of "character" plugins, like a compressor is going to somehow inject "character" into your audio. But I think you people are selling yourselves short; it's the user, not the tool, that puts the "character" in there.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more with this post.

I've spent a gazillion years trying to find the perfect gear (guitars/pedals/amps) because I wanted to sound like so and so. The assumption was that when I reached that tone I would reach a level of self satisfaction about my playing. 

The quest never ended since it wasn't correct to begin with. 

Till finally one day something snapped in my head and I just put everything aside and started focusing on playing what was inside my head. Till then I could never hear that 'me' because I was too busy trying to clone someone through their gear. 

Am not saying here that the tone I created as a reflection of me was necessarily better than the ones I was trying to clone. But the whole process of tweaking the limited gear I had made me grow more as a musician than those gazillion years that I had let pass by. 

Am using the guitar analogy not just for effects, VIs but pretty much anything which involves creativity and art. 

I extended the same approach to my vocal training and the results were the same. 

This whole buy-this-to-look/sound-like-someone is just a very smart marketing ploy most of the times. It happens across all product categories.


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## wst3 (Aug 8, 2018)

Not unpopular at all, I think. You make some great points, although I might beg to differ on a couple:



still_lives said:


> Warning: Unpopular opinion.
> I often see/hear talk of "character" plugins, like a compressor is going to somehow inject "character" into your audio. But I think you people are selling yourselves short; it's the user, not the tool, that puts the "character" in there.


It is the user, or it is 90% the user, there is still a place for specific devices, or emulations thereof.

Since we are picking on compressors... 

there are two types of compressors, feed-forward and feed-back. A feed-forward device is watching the level at the input of the gain block, and the feed-back version is looking at the output of the gain block.
there are many ways to measure the level, where ever you are looking, RMS, average, peak, peak-to-peak, and combinations of those.
there are different gain blocks, and different detectors, too many to list.
and the obvious, there are tube, discreet solid state, and IC designs, some of which use transformers and some use active balanced stages.
All of these factors will affect the sound, whether it is adding some character or affecting the way the level is controlled.

That, I believe, is where that last 10% plays a part. And maybe it's more about selecting the architecture that fits the situation?



still_lives said:


> It's not the 1176 that is making your drums sound good. Rather, it's that _you _made the choice to use that particular tool for that particular task. A tool is just a tool. _You_ are the one responsible for injecting "character" through your decisions and your discretion.


Exactly!



still_lives said:


> There is probably somebody out there who, with the right amount of knowledge and determination, could get essentially the same result with something flexible like ReaComp and a saturation plugin that someone else gets with their <snip>


Oh there is! I have a couple of the uber-flexible compressors, one from Voxengo, a really old one (that I ended up retiring) from a company who went out of busines, and the Waves C4. I suspect I could do the same with the FabFilter compressor. It's all about knowing which "features" you are trying to capture.

The opposite is equally true - there area folks that will make a mess of things no matter what tools they have at their disposal. If you gave me a Neve compressor I'd be lost. I've never quite figured out what they are good for. I have friends that make them sound like magic. Just reinforces the 90% user thing!



still_lives said:


> Maybe so, maybe not. I mean, it's all subjective anyway. <snip>



That's the thing. I might think that a dBX 160 is perfect for the drums, and you might think some other product will work better.



still_lives said:


> You might hear a song and think "Wow, that guy doesn't really know how to use compressors." But I do know that not once, _ever_, have I listened to a song and thought "This is great, but if only they had used a different compressor..."


Nor have I, and in fact it has to be pretty awful for me to think someone didn't know what they were doing. They might have gotten the exact effect they were looking for, and I just don't get it.

WHich is why I do own lots of plugins... if that makes sense.


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