# Any musical theatre / opera composers here? Advice needed



## Dan Selby (Jan 25, 2012)

Advice needed: I have been approached by a librettist asking me to quote to write music (for small orchestra, probably) to a scene (90 lines of libretto) and, assuming it goes well, she is expressing a strong interest in collaborating in writing an opera together in the future. For this initial job she would want an orchestral mockup recording and sheet music (I assume a conductor's score, not parts at this stage). 

My problem is that I have no idea on how to price such a request and more how copyright works in this kind of venture. Most of my work is TV commissions where the commissioing fee is effectively including a sync licence for the particular project. I have a feel for how long it might take me, plus, of course, I can always ask her what her budget is  but this issue is more what I would be granting her in terms of licence or how that would work. She obviously would want to license/sell the opera so I can't impede that but, equally, would want to retain copyright in the music so that if it's successful I share in the income.

Would it make sense to suggest a quote that covers my time and say that I will retain my copyright (so we would be 50/50 co-writers?) but that my fee (which she would be paying) is an advance against future licensing/royalty income?

I also just have no idea about how operas or musicals are licensed or sold and what the range of licence fees might be? Any musical theatre experts out there?

BTW: I, and my client, are based in UK.

Many thanks!


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## Daryl (Jan 25, 2012)

First thing to be aware of; there is no PRS for Dramatic Works. Therefore Grand Rights (as they are pompously called) are usually charged. There are various ways of doing this, but one of the fairest is a percentage of gross box office.

As far as a split between librettist and composer, I have no idea. However, I do know that in certain countries, the music and words come under the same agreement, so any Royalties paid on the music has to be split with the librettist, no matter whether or not it is an instrumental arrangement. Best bet is find an Entertainments lawyer to advise.

D


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## Dan Selby (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanks, Daryl - wasn't aware that there was no performance royalties on Dramatic Works. Looks like it's time to crack out the old "Copyrights Designs and Patents Act 1988" again.  Any idea what a typical percentage of gross box office for Grand Rights usage might be (or a range)?

Cheers,

Dan


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## Daryl (Jan 25, 2012)

Dan Selby @ Wed Jan 25 said:


> Thanks, Daryl - wasn't aware that there was no performance royalties on Dramatic Works. Looks like it's time to crack out the old "Copyrights Designs and Patents Act 1988" again.  Any idea what a typical percentage of gross box office for Grand Rights usage might be (or a range)?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dan


I don't know anything about Musicals or Opera, but for Ballet it's anything up to 10%.

D


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## Dan Selby (Jan 25, 2012)

Many thanks!


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## maraskandi (Jan 25, 2012)

Best bet could be to join the Musician's Union, they then give free legal advice such as going over contracts and the like.


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## Daryl (Jan 25, 2012)

maraskandi @ Thu Jan 26 said:


> Best bet could be to join the Musician's Union, they then give free legal advice such as going over contracts and the like.


Nah, don't go anywhere near the Union. Recipe for disaster. For a start, as a composer you're considered to be an Employer. :lol: 

D


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## autopilot (Jan 25, 2012)

Hey Dan - have been where you are - here's my take ... 

As far as back end goes ... 

Typically for a commercial Music Theatre production it's 6% of gross - 2% book, 2% lyrics, and 2% music. Certainly that's the standard I have seen here in Oz and on both sides of the atlantic. 

If it's a funded / subsidised theatre co. you might be able to argue up to 15% (I've had both in contracts). 

At the stage you're at at the moment with the writer I'd suggest just work out how you share the pool that the work's producers will pay you later on - There'll be a big long stinking contract that spells out what that pool is and how much and what happens after recoup - enjoy it when it arrives! 

I would definitely NOT take your fee as an advance. 

You are being paid for two things. One is to write the work (which you can subsidise if you believe in the works artisitc and or commercial potential) and then a second fee paid by a producing entity to be able to exploit the work. They are mutually exclusive. 

Definitely sort it all out early in terms of rights and pool share - a one pager is a good idea. WHat happens if she fires you? What happens if she keeps some of it and not other? Who profits from a recod deal (which doesn;t include the book) What happens if you get a big offer one of you doesn't like ... etc etc etc - hire a lawyer - or get a contract from the Writer's Guild. 

And yes - the Writers Guild is a better place to start - they have many comissioning and partnership templates - I had them look over stuff when I was being commissioned / produced and they helped for sure. 

Good Luck! Be fair and fun and don't sweat the details too much at this stage - just get it all out in the open and enjoy the work - that's actually what it's all about.


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## Dan Selby (Jan 26, 2012)

Hey Autopilot - thanks for the reply. Useful info. I think at this stage I will go back and quote a fee and state that the copyright in the music remains with me, the copyright in the lyrics remains with her (obviously) and the copyright in the work combining music and lyrics is split 50/50 (or possibly more in my favour - it's been suggested elsewhere to me that the composer may often hold a larger share than the librettist) and any backend to be shared accordingly, and take it from there.

The only thing I wanted to query is, you said:



autopilot @ Thu Jan 26 said:


> I would definitely NOT take your fee as an advance.
> 
> You are being paid for two things. One is to write the work (which you can subsidise if you believe in the works artisitc and or commercial potential) and then a second fee paid by a producing entity to be able to exploit the work. They are mutually exclusive.



That makes sense where there is a producer commissioning the work but my impression is that, in this case, there is no buyer or commissioner for the work and it is the librettist who would be paying and then seeking to exploit (license) the work on completion. In that scenario, is it fair to expect the librettist to pay me a fee from her own pocket (if she won't have received a fee to write the libretto) and still share equally in the back end? That's why I was thinking of quoting a fee as an advance against future income - it covers my time and mitigates my risk but means we share equally (or fairly) on income if/when the work is licensed.

You are right, though, that if there is a Producer in the background paying her a commissioning fee then it is a different story - I'll need to establish the situation for certain.

Thanks again, guys - much clearer in my head now, anyway.

Dan


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## autopilot (Jan 26, 2012)

Hey Dan - tired so this might be a bit rambly  

And this is more about a longer larger work rather than the 90 lines you mentioned in the original post - for those 90 lines - charge her a fee. Keep it small. Full stop. there will be virtually no back end or license fee to speak of for a short work. See how the relationship goes. See what the work turns into.

For the larger work - tricky ... I agree ... it all depends on your relationship with the writer - how much she wants you to write it - and how much you want to do the show. What's her reputation? What's yours? What does she bring to the table? What do you? 

Is it a good script?? !!! DO you like it? Does it make you want to make amazing music? 

In the end for the larger project your role will be about how much _you_ want the work to be created. 

That will determine what you charge and how much you subsidise the creation of the work with your time, money, experience, gear, favours etc etc (becaused you will have to) 

It also comes down to how likely you think a production is. 

And who they are. I have some people I would walk over broken glass to work for free with. I have others I charge by the day all up front. 

If she (or someone funding her) wants to act as producer of the work by commissioning you (which is what she is doing) then that's her risk. If it were another producer commissioning you both, would you have a problem with an upfront fee? 

Unless you're sure there's a backend in the future (or you are happy to gamble there might be), you need to get covered for your time and expertise. 

She must see something in you two working together - so I think make her pay for it, or get real and find someone commission you both. Or - how's she going to eat while she's working her arse off making a great libretto for your show if she's not getting paid anyway ... )

You _could_ have it as an advance against a license to do the show or income or whatever. Assuming she finds someone to take the work on there'll be money involved ... sure - but it makes the agreement complicated 

I thin it's easier to have a straight fee - keep it as low as you can and go from there. No repayment issues - no interest - no rewrite dramas (she pays you more? recoupable? non recoupable? she gets all the rewrite money to pay your "loan" but you still rewrite? how would it work?) 

What if she pays you a recoupable fee, and you reach an impasse and you walk away - do you give the money back? 

Do the 90 lines cheap as you can, use it together as a teaser package - expand it into a bigger work (draft of script or synopsis) and a couple of musicalised scenes and get some funding (commercial or artisitc body) and go from there... 

Dunno - it's your call I guess - but in the end I see the backend is a fee paid by a _producer_ to have the right to put the show on and sell tickets to it. I like your ambition to keep it fair. 

I agree with you, and if that feels right then go for it - but make it fair to yourself as well.


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## Dan Selby (Jan 26, 2012)

Hey Autopilot,

Thanks again for your thoughts. I think I'm going to quote a fee for the initial short work and, assuming she is self-funding at this stage, say it is an advance against a future Producer's commissioning fee and a 50/50 split on any future royalties (checking on this first - a music publisher I know has suggested that the composer share is often higher than the librettist). I'll keep my fee on the low side but a real fee that covers my time. As you say, in all likelihood this fee is all I'll ever see for this shorter piece and the larger work or collaboration might come to nothing. I DO like the three verses of lyrics she has sent me so far but she doesn't appear to have a big track record - certainly not so that I am prepared to do the small work for a dime in order to win the opportunity to do the larger work.

I have told her that I'm happy to quote for the small work and, if it goes well for both of us, am happy to consider collaborating on future work later. At that point I'll hopefully have a better feel for working with her, her track record and what she brings to the table in terms of potential for licensing and so how I might think about pricing...

...and all you've said will be very helpful at that point!

Thanks again.

Dan


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