# Guitar Recording?



## Broth3rz (Jan 16, 2021)

So I know there are many ways to recording guitars and I'm sure the professional way is with guitar AMPs and MICs.. But I don't wanna go that route, so I guess the only other way is to plug my guitar into my Motu M4 and apply the effects through my DAW? Is that a good way to get great quality?

I will most likely be doing distorted guitar but just wanted to see what other ways of doing this with QUALITY are.

I don't know if there are any good quality guitar VI's for distorted electric? I do need something that is fully customizable, strum patterns, notes, chords, etc.

I guess I'm also asking what are the BEST quality electric and acoustic VI's out there? I've messed with the Komplete Ultimate stuff and don't really care for them.


----------



## MusiquedeReve (Jan 16, 2021)

Amplitube 5 is very very nice
(I use Amplitube 5 Max)
Tons of routing options, effects, amplifiers, microphones, speakers


----------



## TheNorseman (Jan 17, 2021)

Although I am not completely answering your question here, I want my answer to not only be for you, but anyone wondering the same thing. Also what genre of music are you looking to make? I am also a guitar player but play exclusively heavy metal. And I know many adequate amp sims that are free 

Anyways, here is my incomplete answer:

I don't know why anyone would use an actual guitar amp these days. You can't get good sound out of them without waking up the entire neighborhood and having the police show up at your house. Then you need a mixture of microphones and preamps and whatever else. 

There are a lot of great and free Vi's out there. But if you want the absolute best quality, get an AxeFX or Kemper. Bitching about the price? They are both basically the same price as an amp head.

Final thought, if are absolutely hell bent on wanting to record an actual amp, just record the DI's and send them to a studio and have them reamp them.


----------



## AudioLoco (Jan 17, 2021)

Nothing sounds good as an electric guitar recorded with a mic on the grill of an amp. (Nothing yet)
Also you will ask the best engineers in the world "how did you obtain that sound of X Mr. GuitarGod on X record?" The answer, most of the time is going to be "I put a mic on the amp and press record".
So most of the sound is already in the guitarist rig, his/her favorite personal combination of amp, pedals, guitar and obviously, fingers.
Recording a dry DI signal and then putting it through Amp sims, cab sims etc etc, may work, but will not have the same effect, in my experience.
Your other option is the Kemper/Helix route. It is crazy expensive and as as an investment it is not the best, in my opinion, as it's not going to keep it's value as technology progresses.
If neighbours are the problem, you could try with a very low wattage amp (Tiny terror, AC5) and an Sm57 on the grill.
Good luck.


----------



## Fox (Jan 17, 2021)

My favorite solution currently is the Helix Stomp. What it offers that plugins don’t is varying ohms at input. This makes a drastic difference for me in the sound and feel.


----------



## easyrider (Jan 17, 2021)

TheNorseman said:


> I don't know why anyone would use an actual guitar amp these days. You can't get good sound out of them without waking up the entire neighborhood and having the police show up at your house. Then you need a mixture of microphones and preamps and whatever else



No you don’t...

Clapton , and countless others used a fender tweed champ on many of their recordings...









The Guitar Gear Behind Derek & the Dominos' 'Layla'


Examine the guitars and amps that powered a rock and roll milestone.




www.guitarplayer.com





Also an SM57 going into an audio interface would yield great results if you know what you are doing....


----------



## easyrider (Jan 17, 2021)

Edit: I have both amps and guitar sims BTW....Amplitube is good in my experience....And some of the Plugin Alliance amps are great too.

I use a fender Champ going into my 4x12 and my Marshall JTM1


----------



## charlieclouser (Jan 17, 2021)

I agree that a Helix Stomp is a great choice. I have a zillion amp modeling plugins, including Helix Native, but I always prefer to use a modeling hardware unit since there's no load on the computer, no latency, no fiddling - just tweak and go. Plus I have a huge pedalboard and it's a little fiddly to use all that crap with a plugin amp sim.

Yes, I've recorded with real amps for decades. At one point I had six heads in the control room, eight cabs in a custom built soundproof mini-room up in the garage as well as three iso-cabs and various power-soak units like the Palmer speaker sims, with a Radial JD7 to drive multiple amps at once and a special patch panel to route any head to any cab, all mic'd up and ready to go, returning via a 16-channel snake to my rack of API and Neve preamps. It was fun and necessary when working with tone fiends like Page Hamilton of Helmet, but completely overkill for my own stuff.

Unless you already have a collection of amps and mics (and somewhere you can crank 'em up) then it's a big money pit. For the price of one decent amp you can get a modeling unit (Line6, Kemper, Fractal, etc.) and have simulations of dozens (hundreds?) of amps and effects, and can switch between them instantly, trying out which amp+cab combination is best for the part you're playing. If you find a simulation that you use all the time, maybe you'll wind up buying the real thing - but the only real heads I still own are a Dual Rectifier head and a JMP-1, and the Rectifier hasn't been powered up in a year or two.

I love having Variax guitars and modeling hardware - I can flip through dozens of guitars, amps, cabs, and effects while I'm working out the riff, and come up with combinations that I would never in a million years own the real version of just to use twice. Rickenbacker 12-string through VH-4? Dobro through Supro? I've used those combinations in the modeling world but there's no way I'd want to own the real thing.

So, Helix Stomp for sure. And Variax is worth a look if you're guitar shopping too.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jan 17, 2021)

Happy Helix LT user here. The variable input impedance is a huge deal. I also have the Native plugin in case I feel the need to reamp later but I rarely do.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 17, 2021)

The most important thing to do to get a good guitar sound isn't the question whether you're using a real amp or not, nut that you double track at least with two, better three of four tracks of less distorted guitars. And do really double track, not some plugins.

Btw. almost nobody records amps 'live' nowadays, almost everybody only records the DI signal and reamps that.


----------



## GtrString (Jan 17, 2021)

There is no «best» we can agree on. The perception of guitar sound is just too subjective and context dependent.

Im too anal with my sound preferences, so I will not record guitar centric tracks without my amp heads/cabs & pedalboard, but I use Amplitube for practicing and the odd backing track. I have had modellers, but could not get along with them, and found Amplitube just as good as any Kemper, Helix or Fractal unit. I think the differences between them is overhyped.

A nice tube head with a good loadbox can work exceptionally well for a silent recording setup, though. Check out Celestions new Speakermix plugin for getting the most out of that.


----------



## Rapollo (Jan 17, 2021)

Whilst real amps will always have their place, when it comes to regular recording and writing music the convenience of Amp sims is just too valuable with how good they are now. As a full-time gigging guitarist up to 2020 with valve amps, my current go-to is Helix Native. I'd love the pedalboard for the reasons Charlie stated, but it sounds great - especially with other cab IR's such as OwnHammers.

Although the input makes a huge difference (eg between my RME UFX II jack and RNDI) so the whole variable input impedence mentioned by others is very true!


----------



## AudioLoco (Jan 17, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> The most important thing to do to get a good guitar sound isn't the question whether you're using a real amp or not, nut that you double track at least with two, better three of four tracks of less distorted guitars. And do really double track, not some plugins.
> 
> Btw. almost nobody records amps 'live' nowadays, almost everybody only records the DI signal and reamps that.


Both of these statements are relative.
- Doubling isn't a thing you do automatically, just because you have to. Plenty of examples of single mono signals sounding much bigger then 4 tracks of chorus-y doubling. Depends on the part, the genre...
-"Almost nobody"...I will add "you know" ... In guitar-centric productions (with more then 0 budget and a possibility to access a studio) I think most still use guitar amps, having the option.
I am not saying amp sims are not usable. I just used one yesterday on a production where the guitar has a minor role. Would I use it on a Rock record? Hell no!

PS in general, metal heads are more used to and enjoy using sims.... Fractal has been around for some time and a lot of the sounds/presets of the hardware sims is aimed at hi gain loving guitarist. I have yet to meet a blues guitar player prefering a sim over a tube amp.


----------



## easyrider (Jan 17, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Both of these statements are relative.
> - Doubling isn't a thing you do automatically, just because you have to. Plenty of examples of single mono signals sounding much bigger then 4 tracks of chorus-y doubling. Depends on the part, the genre...
> -"Almost nobody"...I will add "you know" ... In guitar-centric productions (with more then 0 budget and a possibility to access a studio) I think most still use guitar amps, having the option.
> I am not saying amp sims are not usable. I just used one yesterday on a production where the guitar has a minor role. Would I use it on a Rock record? Hell no!
> ...


Metal heads don’t even use real drummers anymore and everything is locked to a grid....so amp sims are right up their street !


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 17, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Both of these statements are relative.
> - Doubling isn't a thing you do automatically, just because you have to. Plenty of examples of single mono signals sounding much bigger then 4 tracks of chorus-y doubling. Depends on the part, the genre..


When talking about distortion. 
Generally double tracking sounds 'heavier' than 'more' distortion. 
But of course any generalization is generally wrong  



AudioLoco said:


> -"Almost nobody"...I will add "you know". in guitar-centric productions (with more then 0 budget and a possibility to access a studio) I think most still use guitar amps, having the option.



You misunderstood mé, I'm talking about reamping, sending the recorded DI signál through a real amp and cabinet and recording that - that's also a service you can buy. In higher end productions you (mostly, depends on the guitarist too) do play through an amp and record that (just in case), but the signál you 'really' use is the DI signál. 



AudioLoco said:


> I have yet to meet a blues guitar player prefering a sim over a tube amp.


And I know more Metal guitarists that don't. But that's because I know more of them


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 17, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Metal heads don’t even use real drummers anymore and everything is locked to a grid....so amp sims are right up their street !


Who told you that bullshit? Of course people also used drummachines, but that's nothing new and certainly not the norm, most still are 'real' drummers (but not every drummer is Lars Ulrich  
What you maybe heard was that many Metal drummers don't use 'real' drumsounds, but triggers (that trigger samples).


----------



## AudioLoco (Jan 17, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> In higher end productions you (mostly, depends on the guitarist too) do play through an amp and record that (just in case), but the signál you 'really' use is the DI signál.


In my experience, while you often do also record the DI signal, usually the DI gets used for reamping etc, but only if you screwed up the amp sound, as an emergency...
Most mixing engineers hate getting guitar DI tracks.(find what Mr. Scheps has to say about the subject) The amp sound is such an important production choice and if a commitment to a sound is not made early on, that can lead to problems later.

In the case of bass guitar, totally... The bass DI sound is super important and gets used in combo with the other signals up to the last mixing stage...

I have to admit I don't know that many metal guitarist...


----------



## AudioLoco (Jan 17, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Who told you that bullshit? Of course people also used drummachines, but that's nothing new and certainly not the norm, most still are 'real' drummers (but not every drummer is Lars Ulrich
> What you maybe heard was that many Metal drummers don't use 'real' drumsounds, but triggers (that trigger samples).


I think he refers to triggers indeed....

Although, an argument could be that all that triggering and quantization kind of defeat the purpose of using a real drummer in the first place ...


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 17, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> In my experience, while you often do also record the DI signal, usually the DI gets used for reamping etc, but only if you screwed up the amp sound, as an emergency...
> Most mixing engineers hate getting guitar DI tracks.(find what Mr. Scheps has to say about the subject)


Well, even if I wrote 'higher end' I didn't mean Scheps high-end - you don't need reamping if you can choose between any amp and cabin that has been produced. And specially the money to get enough time with them in the studio.
I'm talking about the situation of 'normal' musicians (that's also almost any Metal band except the biggest ones) in not the smallest studios or at home, but better ones.



AudioLoco said:


> The amp sound is such an important production choice and if a commitment to a sound is not made early on, that can lead to problems later.


We're normally not talking about big changes, you maybe change the head against some similar, but mostly it's the cabin, room and mics. Actually the same tweaks you would do in an amp sim.
You (normally  won't record with a JC120 and end up with a 6506.
What normally happens is that you play and the DI is send to somebody to get the 'real' tone. The biggest advantage is that you can _way_ better edit a DI signal than a distorted one (there is a _difference_ if you're comping a distorted guitar or a DI signal). Btw. same as with bass DI the guitar DI can be used to add some 'attack' to the signal.
Lasse Lammert is somebody who made himself known for getting 'good' guitar tones (he's also selling his amp profiles for Kemper) as a reamping service http://www.lasselammert.com/services.php



AudioLoco said:


> In the case of bass guitar, totally... The bass DI sound is super important and gets used in combo with the other signals up to the last mixing stage...


Well, yes, bass players with amps (specially cabins) are super rare (if they don't have a roadie 


AudioLoco said:


> I think he refers to triggers indeed....
> 
> Although, an argument could be that all that triggering and quantization kind of defeat the purpose of using a real drummer in the first place ...


You use triggers live, but don't quantize. In the Studio you can use 'real' drums, but don't have to.
That's how triggers sound:


Live, here you can see the trigger modules attached to the drums, to the surface of the drum heads (the second ones are a backup, in case the other breaks):


----------



## wst3 (Jan 17, 2021)

It does make a difference, at least to me, and when I am recording an electric guitar part I am using pedals, and amplifier or two, and microphones. I just like it, I like the sound, I like the feel... I like it. And I am willing to do the work to get that sound.

Downside? It is time consuming, it takes up space, it is about as far from repeatable as one can imagine, and I am limited to the amplifiers and pedals and microphones I can afford.

And yet...

For playing out I used to drag all the gear, but about a year ago I finally accepted that I was the only one that really cared about the sound, an the Helix was more than up to the task. It also gives me more options, which is a good thing.

I have tried recording through probably every software amp modeler, and the Helix. Some are better than others, none is exactly the same as the real deal.

My favorites are the UA models, just about all of them, and I use an Apollo Twin with the amp sim in the Unison slot. It is as close as I've heard/played. The Brainworx plugins are nearly as good (some of the UA plugins were developed by Brainworx), but there is this little "extra something" that comes from using them with Unison.

Two things to consider, if you are going to use an amp sim plugin. First, make sure that the input on your audio interface is designed to work with an electric guitar. Not all of the are. If it isn't, invest in a good direct box. And second, don't think of it as an emulation so much as a different way to record guitars. That little shift in thinking can make a difference.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jan 17, 2021)

wst3 said:


> For playing out I used to drag all the gear, but about a year ago I finally accepted that I was the only one that really cared about the sound, an the Helix was more than up to the task. It also gives me more options, which is a good thing.


Yep! I went from amp and pedals to Helix for live, and then when I realised no one _still_ cared about the sound I downsized to a Tech21 RK5 plus whatever crappy backline the venue provides. But I love the Helix for recording: it's so immediate and fun to tweak, and compared to a plugin you get zero-latency monitoring etc. (NB I'm mainly a medium-to-high gain guy: for these sounds I think the modellers are there already, though people who are into that edge-of-breakup blues sound can be more discriminating.)


----------



## easyrider (Jan 17, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Well, even if I wrote 'higher end' I didn't mean Scheps high-end - you don't need reamping if you can choose between any amp and cabin that has been produced. And specially the money to get enough time with them in the studio.
> I'm talking about the situation of 'normal' musicians (that's also almost any Metal band except the biggest ones) in not the smallest studios or at home, but better ones.
> 
> 
> ...



Those drums sound crap....


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 17, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Those drums sound crap....


That's because what you are hearing are drums with trigger skins. They're there to, well, trigger the triggers, not produce sound. That's actually why I posted the video, how drums sound on a record the people know.


----------



## easyrider (Jan 17, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> That's because what you are hearing are drums with trigger skins. They're there to, well, trigger the triggers, not produce sound. That's actually why I posted the video, how drums sound on a record the people know.


I see no point what so ever in drum triggers....


----------



## Zero&One (Jan 17, 2021)

Broth3rz said:


> I don't know if there are any good quality guitar VI's for distorted electric? I do need something that is fully customizable, strum patterns, notes, chords, etc.
> 
> I guess I'm also asking what are the BEST quality electric and acoustic VI's out there? I've messed with the Komplete Ultimate stuff and don't really care for them.


V-metal, Shreddage 3 series or Amplesound.
For sound I find neuraldsp are great. Excellent sound without 6,000 knobs/presets. It's an amp/cab (and a few stomps).


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 17, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I see no point what so ever in drum triggers....


That's also why I posted the video. When you're playing e.g. your kick drums (some drummers only use triggers on the kick drums) that fast it's very hard to get a sound using mics that does sound 'attacky' enough and is heard in the mix. Specially live. And of course convenience. Same as with sims through a PA. Way easier to use - if you don't have the money for your own sound engineer.


----------



## Collywobbles (Jan 17, 2021)

Hi Broth3rz, based on your post I'm going to assume you have an interface, a guitar, a computer and some daw software - which means you basically already have everything you need to get started with recording guitars.



Broth3rz said:


> I guess the only other way is to plug my guitar into my Motu M4 and apply the effects through my DAW? Is that a good way to get great quality?


Yes, you can definitely get great results this way. Make sure that the interface's input is set to the correct mode (I think yours has a "guitar" setting specifically) and set your input gain correctly - basically you should try have it close to clipping when you're playing at your absolute loudest.

Some amp sims to check out are Amplitube 5, Neural DSP, Mercuriall Spark/Euphoria and Helix Native. There are of course others as well, and most of them have free trials so you can really get a feel for which ones you like before spending money on them as they can be quite expensive.

There are of course other options as well like modelers, real amps with cabs or reactive loadboxes etc. and you can always go down that road later, but my suggestion would be to try amp sims first, since you seem to already have pretty much everything you need.


----------



## TheNorseman (Jan 17, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Lasse Lammert is somebody who made himself known for getting 'good' guitar tones (he's also selling his amp profiles for Kemper) as a reamping service http://www.lasselammert.com/services.php


I can't believe this topic has been handled so calmly and with maturity. This is such a sensitive debate, and there are so many opinions on this.

You bring up Lasse Lammert, he's a great example of this. The guy owns probably 30 amp heads and any cabinet imaginable. I'm a big fan of his, he taught me a lot over the years. He's a guy who will never change his mind on this subject. That being said, technology has gotten so much better over the years. When I started with amp modeling, back in 2007ish, it was totally different than it is today. First thing I got was podfarm, first I was excited about it, but after using it for about a week, I realized that I could never get rid of that fizz in the background. After doing some research, I learned that this was a common problem with digital amps, and there was nothing I can do about it. I'll get back to this subject in my final point

Next point: years later, they released the AxeFX and it was a game changer. I remember on the Andy Sneap forum, someone did a side by side comparison with a real amp. And although everyone could hear that the two sounded slightly different, no one, and if I remember correctly, even Lasse could figure out which was the Axe and which was the real amp. To me, that is ground breaking for amp sims.

Final point: Over the years I figured out that biggest problem with amp sims are not the sims themselves, but the impulse responses. Finding a good IR is half the battle here. I have personal experience with this. If you run an AxeFX amp sim through a podfarm IR, it's going to sound like podfarm


----------



## charlieclouser (Jan 17, 2021)

wst3 said:


> . First, make sure that the input on your audio interface is designed to work with an electric guitar. Not all of the are. If it isn't, invest in a good direct box.


There's also this little gadget from MOTU that I got a long time ago before there were variable impedance inputs designed for plugging guitar direct into an interface for using software sims:






MOTU.com - ZBox Overview


MOTU is an engineering-driven music technology company passionately driven to create products that help you produce amazing music. MOTU’s award-winning hardware and software are used by top professionals every day on hit songs, mega tours, primetime shows and blockbuster films.



motu.com





Handy little thing and it helped quite a bit.


----------



## TheNorseman (Jan 17, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Metal heads don’t even use real drummers anymore and everything is locked to a grid....so amp sims are right up their street !


Fact check: True

I haven't worked with a drummer in over a decade and I love it.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 17, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> There's also this little gadget from MOTU that I got a long time ago before there were variable impedance inputs designed for plugging guitar direct into an interface for using software sims:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting, thanks for the recommendation! How do I find out if this would be needed for my audio interface? I have a Focusrite scarlett solo, but I don't know which generation (there are differences as far as I know). The input my guitar is plugged into has a guitar symbol and a switch next to it that says inst/line, so I always assumed I don't need a DI box with this.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jan 17, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Interesting, thanks for the recommendation! How do I find out if this would be needed for my audio interface? I have a Focusrite scarlett solo, but I don't know which generation (there are differences as far as I know). The input my guitar is plugged into has a guitar symbol and a switch next to it that says inst/line, so I always assumed I don't need a DI box with this.


I think you'll be okay without the MOTU Z-Box - it comes from an era when the front-panel 1/4" inputs on a lot of interfaces were really intended for plugging in synths and other unbalanced -10db sources like that. 

A good D.I. box though, never hurts - although there are a zillion of them to choose from. Some like tube D.I.'s (which require power), some prefer passive transformer designs. The main thing about a D.I. box is that it will provide the correct input impedance that a passive guitar pickup wants to see, and will output a mic-level signal on XLR that can go into any XLR mic-level input on any piece of audio gear with no worries. But the D.I. wormhole is deep and you could spend anywhere from $100 to $1,000 or more and still find people who would argue with your choice. I know people who swear by the REDDI but it's like $700+. On tour we used Radial boxes with Jensen transformers and they sounded fine but that's a different environment than studio so.... we mainly used them because they were absolutely rugged, not expensive, and easy to find if we needed a replacement.

I have some way-too-expensive Avalon U-5 tube D.I. boxes that are fantastic but have a ton of features that are overkill. I bought them way back in the day when we were using ProTools24 systems that only had balanced line-level XLR inputs, so no 1/4" inputs on the front or anything - couldn't even plug a synth right into ProTools without going through a console or D.I. first. I got them on the recommendation from Michael Beinhorn who is a complete tone fiend and they have some crazy features like a line-level output (!!!) and a passive EQ circuit with 8 presets, one of which is a low-mid scoop that is magic for making bass guitar sound scooped and smooth and not "honky". So that's why I got a pair and I just kept them. 25 years on they are still kicking ass.


----------



## rgames (Jan 17, 2021)

Any of the guitar gurus have an opinion on the new Neural box?






Neural DSP - Quad Cortex







neuraldsp.com





One of my goals for 2020 is to be able to do more than strum a few chords on guitar and I'm looking to pick up some outboard amp modeling gear. I'd also use it for hardware synths.

rgames


----------



## Pier (Jan 17, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I see no point what so ever in drum triggers....


It makes sense if you're used to the feel of acoustic drums for rolls and rebounds.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 17, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I think you'll be okay without the MOTU Z-Box - it comes from an era when the front-panel 1/4" inputs on a lot of interfaces were really intended for plugging in synths and other unbalanced -10db sources like that.
> 
> A good D.I. box though, never hurts - although there are a zillion of them to choose from. Some like tube D.I.'s (which require power), some prefer passive transformer designs. The main thing about a D.I. box is that it will provide the correct input impedance that a passive guitar pickup wants to see, and will output a mic-level signal on XLR that can go into any XLR mic-level input on any piece of audio gear with no worries. But the D.I. wormhole is deep and you could spend anywhere from $100 to $1,000 or more and still find people who would argue with your choice. I know people who swear by the REDDI but it's like $700+. On tour we used Radial boxes with Jensen transformers and they sounded fine but that's a different environment than studio so.... we mainly used them because they were absolutely rugged, not expensive, and easy to find if we needed a replacement.
> 
> I have some way-too-expensive Avalon U-5 tube D.I. boxes that are fantastic but have a ton of features that are overkill. I bought them way back in the day when we were using ProTools24 systems that only had balanced line-level XLR inputs, so no 1/4" inputs on the front or anything - couldn't even plug a synth right into ProTools without going through a console or D.I. first. I got them on the recommendation from Michael Beinhorn who is a complete tone fiend and they have some crazy features like a line-level output (!!!) and a passive EQ circuit with 8 presets, one of which is a low-mid scoop that is magic for making bass guitar sound scooped and smooth and not "honky". So that's why I got a pair and I just kept them. 25 years on they are still kicking ass.



Thanks a lot for the in-depth reply! I think for now I'll stick with just my interface then. Just wanted to make sure I'm not overlooking a grave flaw in my setup.


----------



## KEM (Jan 17, 2021)

There is absolutely no amp sims better than Neural DSP, especially the Nolly, use that together with the Studio Cabs Zilla by GGD and you’re all set.


----------



## Trash Panda (Jan 17, 2021)

You can spend a lot of money chasing the guitar processing rabbit. Lord knows I have.

If you’re just recording for yourself, use a DI signal with Helix Native or HX Stomp and get some cab IR files. No one listening to your songs will be saying “Oh, he’s running the Badonk amp sim on a DI signal. What a rookie!”

Biggest thing to note is the cab IR is going to impact your sound more than anything else.

If there are specific amp models you really like, such as the Deizel VH4 or Orange Rockerverb, try the plugin alliance demos for their amp models and wait for a $29 sale.


----------



## easyrider (Jan 17, 2021)

Pier said:


> It makes sense if you're used to the feel of acoustic drums for rolls and rebounds.


Why not record the real drum ?


----------



## easyrider (Jan 17, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Interesting, thanks for the recommendation! How do I find out if this would be needed for my audio interface? I have a Focusrite scarlett solo, but I don't know which generation (there are differences as far as I know). The input my guitar is plugged into has a guitar symbol and a switch next to it that says inst/line, so I always assumed I don't need a DI box with this.


----------



## KEM (Jan 17, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Metal heads don’t even use real drummers anymore and everything is locked to a grid....so amp sims are right up their street !


Chris Turner though... better than a computer.


----------



## Pier (Jan 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Why not record the real drum ?


Because getting a nice acoustic drum recording is not so easy.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


>




Thanks! Now that I've seen it again, I think I actually saw that one some time ago, but it's not exactly the same interface I have and if I understood the issue right, then the first gen of the interface he tested is actually not ok for recording guitars because the signal is clipping on the input, and I have no idea how I'd look up these smaller differences between the focursrite interfaces and their different generations. But mine has one dedicated 1/4" input without XLR for recording instruments, so it's definitely different from the 2i2 in some way.


----------



## DerGeist (Jan 18, 2021)

rgames said:


> Any of the guitar gurus have an opinion on the new Neural box?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have one on order. Their plugins -- I have the Nolly and the Cory Wong are the best amp sims I have ever tried so it was a no brainer for me. Will be post a short review if it ever shows up.


----------



## easyrider (Jan 18, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Thanks! Now that I've seen it again, I think I actually saw that one some time ago, but it's not exactly the same interface I have and if I understood the issue right, then the first gen of the interface he tested is actually not ok for recording guitars because the signal is clipping on the input, and I have no idea how I'd look up these smaller differences between the focursrite interfaces and their different generations. But mine has one dedicated 1/4" input without XLR for recording instruments, so it's definitely different from the 2i2 in some way.


Check your focusrite account....if not registered...register and input your serial number....


----------



## harmaes (Jan 18, 2021)

DerGeist said:


> I have one on order. Their plugins -- I have the Nolly and the Cory Wong are the best amp sims I have ever tried so it was a no brainer for me. Will be post a short review if it ever shows up.


I prefer the Nolly, Plini and Cali plugins from Neural DSP. I didn’t like the sound quality of the Cory Wong and Abasi and the new Gojira also has this grainy tone I don’t like at all. 
I just recorded multiple tracks with a tele through the Nolly plugin for a modern pop production and it just works and sits perfectly and sounds great. The Plini clean amp is also great as a Fender Princeton like platform to combine with real or digital pedals and reverbs/delays. I often combine all Neural DSP plugins and use their pre and post pedals seperately. The delay and Reverb of Plini work nicely on a stereo bus driven by the Nolly plugin. Same with the Pedals from the Cali combined with the Nolly or Plini plugins. 

I’ve been a long time Axe Fx II and III user but sold the III recently because I’m not going to perform anytime soon and thought it was a waste to keep this expensive unit while the Neural DSP plugins bring me similar tones. I’ve also had some issues with the “closed system” from Fractal and their lack of good bass support. 

I’ve used pro IRs from Mikko (ML Soundlab), Ownhammer and York but with the Neural DSP plugins these aren’t really required. For bass I use the Parallax and Darkglass plugins. 

From what I’ve heard of the Quad Cortex it sounds really convincing and seems to have a good “feel”. When I’m considering playing live again I’ll consider the Quad Cortex.


----------



## harmaes (Jan 18, 2021)

DerGeist said:


> I have one on order. Their plugins -- I have the Nolly and the Cory Wong are the best amp sims I have ever tried so it was a no brainer for me. Will be post a short review if it ever shows up.


Looking forward to your demo when you’ve received the Quad Cortex.


----------



## spikey (Aug 14, 2021)

I have one on order (May-21) as well but looks like I won't be seeing it any time soon due to Covid F'ing up parts orders for NDSP and everyone else it seems. The last estimate from my SW rep said Oct, maybe.


----------



## KEM (Aug 14, 2021)

The signal chain for the main rhythm guitars in this track is a Horizon Devices Precision Drive -> Neural DSP Fortin Nameless (amp only) -> GGD Zilla Cabs


----------



## MartinH. (Aug 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> The signal chain for the main rhythm guitars in this track is a Horizon Devices Precision Drive -> Neural DSP Fortin Nameless (amp only) -> GGD Zilla Cabs




*THALL! *

Super cool, love it! What was your 8 string guitar tuned to and how/where did you use the pitch shifter? Was it a digitech drop or some pitch shifter plugin?


----------



## KEM (Aug 15, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> *THALL! *
> 
> Super cool, love it! What was your 8 string guitar tuned to and how/where did you use the pitch shifter? Was it a digitech drop or some pitch shifter plugin?


Thall is life!!

My 8 string is tuned Drop D# but I have the 2nd string tuned to G, so instead of being a 4th up from the 3rd string it’s a minor 2nd, that allows me to do the “panic chord” with just one finger, I definitely recommend anyone that plays metal to try that out!!

As far as the pitch shifter goes it’s used pretty much anytime you hear the super high notes that sound like a dying cat (like the slide in the opening riff at :26) and I also use it to go down an octave on the lowest string (you can hear it for a split second at 2:04, it’s the crazy low note right before I do the high panic chord). And I actually just use the stock Cubase transpose feature, it’s definitely not the best pitch shifter around, it makes everything sound murky and it creates some artifacts but that’s exactly why I like it so much, it’s downfalls totally fit the context of what I’m doing and it sounds disgusting, and true Thall is definitely disgusting!!


----------



## MartinH. (Aug 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> Thall is life!!
> 
> My 8 string is tuned Drop D# but I have the 2nd string tuned to G, so instead of being a 4th up from the 3rd string it’s a minor 2nd, that allows me to do the “panic chord” with just one finger, I definitely recommend anyone that plays metal to try that out!!
> 
> As far as the pitch shifter goes it’s used pretty much anytime you hear the super high notes that sound like a dying cat (like the slide in the opening riff at :26) and I also use it to go down an octave on the lowest string (you can hear it for a split second at 2:04, it’s the crazy low note right before I do the high panic chord). And I actually just use the stock Cubase transpose feature, it’s definitely not the best pitch shifter around, it makes everything sound murky and it creates some artifacts but that’s exactly why I like it so much, it’s downfalls totally fit the context of what I’m doing and it sounds disgusting, and true Thall is definitely disgusting!!



I love such non-standard tuning experiments! My 8 string is on A A E A D G A A# at the moment. I've just ordered a 9-string set where I'm planning to skip the second thickest string so that the low A0 is a little less floppy. If I'm not happy with that, I might try C G C G C F C C#. My 7 String that I mostly use for black metal is on B C G C F A D, because I like to experiment with what you call "panic chords" on the lower strings as well, and it makes fretting minor thirds or major seconds easier.

I'm still looking for the perfect pitch shifter for my needs. Through experimentation I found out, that those pitch shifters that allow you to freely set the time window for the downpitching chunks and that are so simple that they cause heavy artifacts, can be "tuned" to make those artifacts at a fixed subharmonic frequency. E.g. if you want to pitch something down to A0, and want the artifacts to be repeated with A-1 frequency, you can use an online converter to get the period length of the frequency and then set the chunk size of the pitch shifter to 72.73 ms. Might be worth exerimenting with if you find a pitch shifter that can do that. I used one of the free jsfx plugins in Reaper (pitchdowner if I remember correctly).


----------



## KEM (Aug 15, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I love such non-standard tuning experiments! My 8 string is on A A E A D G A A# at the moment. I've just ordered a 9-string set where I'm planning to skip the second thickest string so that the low A0 is a little less floppy. If I'm not happy with that, I might try C G C G C F C C#. My 7 String that I mostly use for black metal is on B C G C F A D, because I like to experiment with what you call "panic chords" on the lower strings as well, and it makes fretting minor thirds or major seconds easier.
> 
> I'm still looking for the perfect pitch shifter for my needs. Through experimentation I found out, that those pitch shifters that allow you to freely set the time window for the downpitching chunks and that are so simple that they cause heavy artifacts, can be "tuned" to make those artifacts at a fixed subharmonic frequency. E.g. if you want to pitch something down to A0, and want the artifacts to be repeated with A-1 frequency, you can use an online converter to get the period length of the frequency and then set the chunk size of the pitch shifter to 72.73 ms. Might be worth exerimenting with if you find a pitch shifter that can do that. I used one of the free jsfx plugins in Reaper (pitchdowner if I remember correctly).



Very interesting!! I’ve been wanting to get a Digitech Whammy but I said screw it and stuck with the free one in Cubase


----------



## MartinH. (Aug 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> Very interesting!! I’ve been wanting to get a Digitech Whammy but I said screw it and stuck with the free one in Cubase



If you have Guitar Rig through NI Komplete, maybe give the pitch shifter in there a go. I actually bought a Digitech Drop, but in a blind test with a friend he very slightly preferred the Guitar Rig pitch shift and the differences were so minimal that it isn't worth sacrificing the flexibility of being able to tweak things later. I sent the pedal back and got a refund. Afaik the DT Drop and DT Whammy use the same pitch shift algorithm, but you might want to double check that.


----------



## MusiquedeReve (Mar 2, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> And Variax is worth a look if you're guitar shopping too.


Charlie - how close does the Variax get to the guitars it emulates? I assume close enough since you are a professional but I've never been able to find one to try in person




GtrString said:


> A nice tube head with a good loadbox can work exceptionally well for a silent recording setup, though. Check out Celestions new Speakermix plugin for getting the most out of that.


I sold my Amplitube 5 and built myself (well, bought is the proper word as I did not build any of the pedals) a nice little stereo pedalboard running into my interface:






However, I am trying to figure out how to et the levels for everything as switching over from Aplitube 5 to hardware is a bit of a learning curve

Since I no longer have Amplitube 5, I need to purchase some IRs and have been giving a look at the Celestion SpeakerMix Pro -- which speakers would you recommend for mostly clean sounds with the occasional distorted lead?




charlieclouser said:


> There's also this little gadget from MOTU that I got a long time ago before there were variable impedance inputs designed for plugging guitar direct into an interface for using software sims:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Considering I am running through the Suhr RL using XLR into the Suhr and TRS to my AI, is the Z-box something I should be looking into as well?




KEM said:


> There is absolutely no amp sims better than Neural DSP, especially the Nolly



After selling Amplitube 5 and building out my hardware recording guitar rig, I purchased the NeuralDSP Tim Henson and Nolly plugins - they are glorious and they are what I will be using for eventually processing the DI signal I am recording


----------



## charlieclouser (Mar 2, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Charlie - how close does the Variax get to the guitars it emulates?


Who knows? I've never been in the same room as a Rickenbacker 12-string or a Dobro - but I know I found those settings useful on the Variax. More useful, in fact, than the real thing would have been. I've played enough 12-string guitars to know that it's much easier to play a 6-string, and a Dobro would require a mic that would pick up plenty of room noise and breathing from the player. And neither of them let you arbitrarily detune the strings by an octave if you want! 

When using an e-Bow and lots of effects, I've been able to do things on the Variax that I'm sure would be difficult if not impossible to do with an acoustic guitar. Running an acoustic guitar through effects is a huge pain, requiring that you either use a built-in pickup (which always sounds less than realistic) or record the guitar clean and then somehow route the recorded track out of your DAW and through pedals.... which is a mess, and doesn't allow you to improvise your playing style based on what you're hearing from the effects, so that's a non-starter for me. But with Variax I can start with an absolutely silent and pristine, but realistic, acoustic guitar sound and route it directly through effects, improvising with pencils and bows and other toys as I search for an interesting sound.

One of the coolest cues I ever did was based almost entirely on the Variax on an acoustic guitar model running through the Line6 green delay with a two-bar delay time and 98% feedback, so it was functioning almost like a looper, but since had slightly less than 100% feedback, the oldest audio would gradually fade away, being replaced by newer audio.

I tuned the guitar to an open tuning, laid it on the floor, and played above the nut with a pair of pencils, which created a "ching-ching" type of percussive sound, and using the Line6 Guitar Workbench software I tuned the guitar down an octave. If I had tried to tune the actual strings down an octave they'd have been flopping around and been basically un-playable, and if I'd used a pitch shifter on the audio output of the guitar it wouldn't have tracked as accurately as the per-string pitch shifting which takes place inside the Variax engine, and would have been full of tracking glitches and other artifacts.

And of course the ultra-soft, ultra-quiet, "normal" acoustic guitar parts I described elsewhere were super easy to record with the Variax, after we had spent an afternoon trying to record a lovely Taylor acoustic but kept picking up ambient noises, breathing, etc. on the microphones. It was a pleasure to hear the Variax acoustic decaying into absolute silence, just pure digital black. For that scenario it was exactly what I needed, and the Variax made it possible, while the real acoustic guitar did not. 

I'm sure a guitar purist might scoff at the Variax, but it's far more flexible than a closet full of guitars that might each get used twice a decade (and I do have a closet full of guitars!), but it can be a supremely useful tool for scoring.


----------



## easyrider (Mar 3, 2022)

I’ve just got my 1977 fender champ back from the shop and while it’s was being looked at I had a rethink of my pedal board. Sold nearly all of them and started again buying pedals that were meaningful to what I want to achieve.

I was never quite happy with amp sims….I have shit tonnes of them and 100s of virtual fx… I was suffering from Choice anxiety and turning knobs with a mouse while playing my guitar was just infuriating.

The act of playing my guitar required me to use my computer. I wanted a totally independent system.

Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
I won’t get fooled again

🤣
Turned on my Fender champ , plugged in my Telecaster turned on my chase tone fuzz fella I recently acquired and BOOM thick creamy tone in seconds that blows any virtual fuzz and amp into the abyss.

Sat there playing , riffing wondering why I had been faffing with so much choice and mediocre tone using sims

Not knocking people who use them whatever works best for you. But I realised I need to turn physical knobs and be inspired by the sound I was making.

No updates , not BS just music !

I’m lucky to have the space for a 4 x 12 I have have a couple of fender amps and a Marshall and some beautiful sounding pedals.





I recently just bought this made in Japan Boss Flanger pedal made in 1981….Got a suprise when I opened the box to find a note and a picture of the guys band I bought it from gigging With it in the 80s 👍

Instant tone and a riff came flooding out of me as soon as I plugged it in 😎


----------



## easyrider (Mar 3, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Who knows? I've never been in the same room as a Rickenbacker 12-string or a Dobro - but I know I found those settings useful on the Variax. More useful, in fact, than the real thing would have been. I've played enough 12-string guitars to know that it's much easier to play a 6-string, and a Dobro would require a mic that would pick up plenty of room noise and breathing from the player. And neither of them let you arbitrarily detune the strings by an octave if you want!
> 
> When using an e-Bow and lots of effects, I've been able to do things on the Variax that I'm sure would be difficult if not impossible to do with an acoustic guitar. Running an acoustic guitar through effects is a huge pain, requiring that you either use a built-in pickup (which always sounds less than realistic) or record the guitar clean and then somehow route the recorded track out of your DAW and through pedals.... which is a mess, and doesn't allow you to improvise your playing style based on what you're hearing from the effects, so that's a non-starter for me. But with Variax I can start with an absolutely silent and pristine, but realistic, acoustic guitar sound and route it directly through effects, improvising with pencils and bows and other toys as I search for an interesting sound.
> 
> ...











BOSS - AC-3 | Acoustic Simulator


AC-3: Acoustic Simulator - Advanced Electric-To-Acoustic Guitar Modeling




www.boss.info





👍

But you know this already…

Variax looks like a very creative tool tbh


----------



## MusiquedeReve (Mar 3, 2022)

I am about to pull the proverbial trigger on Celestion Speaker Mix Pro

Until now, I have been using Logic Pro's stock amp sims but will now be recording live amps into my audio interface with the help of the Suhr RL

Here is a link to all the Celestion DSRs I can choose from:

https://www.celestionplus.com/products/dynamic-speaker-response-dsr/
I am a bit overwhelmed

My style of music is cinematic/orchestral with clean guitar with reverb and delay - along with the occasional overdrive and fuzz thrown in for good measure

Any advice would be appreciated

Thank you and be well


----------



## MartinH. (Mar 3, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> I am about to pull the proverbial trigger on Celestion Speaker Mix Pro


I doubt this helps, but unless you know exactly why you're buying it, I don't think you should buy it. There's an insane number of free IRs available and it could serve as a good start to find out what kinds of speaker and mic combinations you like. 
Alternatively you could try something like this: 









Jens Bogren Signature IR Pack: LEAD + CLEAN


Jens Bogren Signature IR Pack: Leads And Cleans by Bogren Digital consists of 41 Premium Lead Guitar Impulse Responses and 20 Clean Guitar Impulse Responses. This pack is engineered by producer Jens Bogren and recorded using highest quality analogue gear to give your tracks a professional sound...




bogrendigital.com





I don't have it, so I can't recommend this one specifically, I mean just in general curated packs of pre mixed IRs for the styles that you are looking for are likely much more useful to you than just a huge collection of "technically accurate" IRs that need more mixing work to make them sound good.


----------



## MusiquedeReve (Mar 3, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I doubt this helps, but unless you know exactly why you're buying it, I don't think you should buy it. There's an insane number of free IRs available and it could serve as a good start to find out what kinds of speaker and mic combinations you like.
> Alternatively you could try something like this:
> 
> 
> ...




Oh, I know "why" I am buying it - because from the limited demos I have heard, the SMP sounds incredible compared to static IR's

However, the demo version only includes 8 of the 15 guitar cabinet speakers so I am trying to find out if anyone here might have SMP and recommend any speaker they have


----------



## MartinH. (Mar 3, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Oh, I know "why" I am buying it - because form the limited demos I have heard, the SMP sounds incredible compared to static IR's
> 
> However, the demo version only includes 8 of the 15 guitar cabinet speakers so I am trying to find out if anywhere here might have SMP and recommend any speaker they have


Oh, interesting! Never heard of that DSR tech before, I'll check out some demos, thanks for letting me know.


----------

