# How to escape the Ostinatos...



## Sasje (Sep 14, 2013)

I've listened to a couple of pieces I've been working on, and to be honest, I noticed that I use ostinatos pretty much everywhere. I am actually a bit stuck on playing ostinatos and don't know how to escape this behavior... 
is it lack of experience? or just simply a lack of inspiration? 

It is also one reason why I don't seem to be able to progress pieces and complete them, because it gets stuck in ostinatos and I then don't know where I should go next... I then blame it on a writers block, but honestly, maybe it's just simply a matter of not enough experience...

It especially happens when I'm composing on my DAW. When I write something with a instrument, like a guitar, I don't seem to get stuck as much...

Any thoughts about this?


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## windshore (Sep 14, 2013)

Hey, Nothing wrong with ostinatos at all!

Like anything a particular tool can get over used. I think what you're talking about is very common. If you write on an instrument you play... or if you compose in your head BEFORE you start sequencing, you tend to come up with more powerful (musical) solutions. IMHO


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## Lex (Sep 15, 2013)

Plenty wrong with ostinatos if it starts to feel you can't write anything else for string section. I often meet young composers who are not capable of doing anything else except unoriginal ostinatos combined with endless combinations of I IV V triads. I think this is called "Epic".

Two things you could try. 
1. Make your ostinatos completely original...make a rhythmic pattern that you haven't heard, break down the chord in an unusual way, split the ostinato over the high string sections, write it down backwards, give it completely to woodwinds, and so on....

2. Forbid yourself to use ostinatos for a while and listen to the scores and composers that don't use this technique often. For an example listen to Goldenthal and Don Davis, pay attention to the string section and how complex arpeggios can give the piece a drive. Listen to Brian Tyler's "The Hunted" and analyse those patterns, how they interlock and form an intense and emotional drive/groove. 

Hopefully after practicing different writing techniques coming back to ostinatos will make them original, fresh and your own, like they should be.
Hope any of this helps...

I for one salute you for recognizing you have a problem, vast majority of ostinato addicts are not aware of their addiction.

Aleksandar


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## Resoded (Sep 15, 2013)

My advice would be that you act as your own teacher and give yourself challenges connected to this. I think the key is to see it as a game. I think writers block can come from putting oneself in a position where you can't perform, perhaps in combination with lack of experience.

To illustrate my point, I've heard that in IKEA they frequently have these kinds of games. I remember hearing about one situation where the managers, almost jokingly, gave the employees the task to find a way to lower the price of a cup to 76 cents. This was insanely low at the time. If this had been a demand, then the employees would perhaps feel anxious, but instead it was in form of a game, and resulted in smiles (and later, success) instead.

I think the same thing holds true for learning how to compose. Make everything into a game and create challenges for yourself. Unleash the creativity and do something completely insane. So for example, one challenge could be that you should write an action piece with only pizzicatos, or only, legato, or only runs, or with no strings at all and make it work. Or to reverse how the orchestra usually plays and use woodwinds or brass to play ostinatos and use the strings as brass.

Personally, if I'm having the same problems as you do, I feel it's much easier to perform when I know what to do, instead of knowing what not to do.


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## MrCambiata (Sep 15, 2013)

Ostinato has the advantage that it holds everything together, but it has to be done skillfully and evolve out of itself like in this example: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUthWvKi2Oc

Otherwise, try to be inspired by other textures of writing (like Polyphony for example) which will lead you to new directions.

I've recently discovered the music of Gérard Grisey, who belongs to the so-called Spectral Music, really different way of musical thinking that is mind blowing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqzukP_BtW8


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## Hannes_F (Sep 15, 2013)

How about avoiding copy & paste for a while?


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## Lex (Sep 15, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Sun Sep 15 said:


> How about avoiding copy & paste for a while?



:?: :?: what? what kind of witchcraft are you talking about...how can one compose without copy/paste :?: :?:


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## Dean (Sep 15, 2013)

Hey,

I also think its great that you want to change this very common habit!

Like Lex Ive spoke to a few composers who say that the very first thing they do when starting a composition is always the ostinato,(always trailer/action or epic style.),the theme/tone is usually an afterthought thats fitted around the ostinato.For me thats the same as a song writer meticulously crafting a drum track and then trying to fit the melody and lyrics around that beat and tempo,..in both cases that his 'putting the cart before the horse'.

I compose for trailers and I use ostinatos all the time but I always establish the theme and tone on the piano or (sometimes legato strings) first,usually aswell as the theme and tone you've also found the tempo that works,then you can look into orchestation and ostinatos.Sometimes If you have a powerful enough theme played with strong,grand legato lines on strings and brass sometimes the right percussion with massive downbeats and fast mid percussion combined with driving synth pulse can add all the drive you need.
Unfortunately most trailer clients will expect or request string ostinatos so why not spend time practicing different ways and techniques to do an ostinato that gets you excited again,..such as; really close aggressive cellos,..low piano,..'call and answer' style,..sound design,..reverse and add distortion/sfx to the cellos,break up the notes,..keep the ostinato constantly developing no copy and paste,its endless if you really want to put in the work,..but you should always start with the theme first. 

Goodluck!D


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## Jimbo 88 (Sep 15, 2013)

If you compose thinking of melody 1st , ostinatos become just a normal orchestral tool that they are meant to be. Decide what emotion you want to convey, pick a scale of mode that conveys that emotion, then compose a melody. If the moment calls for an ostinato then so be it....

I think I'm saying the same thing Dean and others have already posted. You are getting some good advise here.


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## Darthmorphling (Sep 15, 2013)

This is a timely thread as the topic for the latest collaborative learning project is ostinatos. There is a lot of good advice here and I'm going to try them out. 

I seem to have a hard time creating ostinatos to fit the melody, or the reverse. I chalk it up to experience level, or lack of it actually. My gut is telling me that it is my inability to write effective themes that is the problem. Translating what I hear in my head to reality is a difficult task.


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## impressions (Sep 15, 2013)

I think another good question of the same "copy paste" problem is how to avoid sounding "chord'ish" in classical music.


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## Sasje (Sep 15, 2013)

That's some great advice!  I would like to thank you for taking the time to discuss it. I've learned quite a bit from it.

I've got no problem with making melodies on top of a ostinato, but once I got the ostinato I don't know how to escape from it and move to a new phrase, without making it sound completely different...

I caught myself doing it, because I am constantly looking for creating stability: I seem to rely on ostinatos as a kind of pulse/meter. If that makes any sense?

Yeah, the copy/paste thing is an issue. With computers it's just too easy to paste, paste and paste. That is a weakness/laziness I guess... maybe I should forbid myself relying on copy pasting the ostinatos and do something original beneath it. :D 

And I definitely need to listen to more pieces...


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## Dan Mott (Sep 15, 2013)

Hey man.

Nothing wrong with Ostinatos.

Some of my fav songs have distinct Ostinato patterns in them. I think they can also be the theme of a track IMO. I generally like interesting ostinatos (sound design), followed by the main melody and some nice chords under them with a sweet bassline.

One thing I am sick of though, is short string ostinatos. Boring. If I was writing trailer or epic film music, I'd try my best to choose another instrument to play that roll. Though, I can't get enough of nice lyrical, legato playing.

Do you have any tracks you have done with your ostinato thingy?


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## Jdiggity1 (Sep 15, 2013)

Lex @ Sun 15 Sep said:


> ...unoriginal ostinatos combined with endless combinations of I IV V triads. I think this is called "Epic".



vi IV I V o/~


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## Greg (Sep 16, 2013)

Just try to come up with unique ones.. or at least use them as a layer instead of the main feature in the song. Or don't use them at all? Its actually laughable now how cookie cutter hybrid trailer music has become. Go watch the trailers for elysium and thor 2 without gagging over the generic-ness.


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## jaredcowing (Sep 16, 2013)

impressions @ Sun Sep 15 said:


> I think another good question of the same "copy paste" problem is how to avoid sounding "chord'ish" in classical music.



+1 - being "chord-ish" is a powerful tool that has its moments, but I think too often composers will make the melody subservient to the chords, rather than the other way around. Part of me wonders if this is a symptom of writing too much at the piano/keyboard- something I learned back in music school was that a great composer needs to think about music not only vertically (chord, next chord, then next chord etc.) but also horizontally (counterpoint, lines, harmonic rhythm). One of the most eye opening exercises I ever had to do was write a trio based on a particular melody, and I was forbidden from using chords or thinking about the harmony. It was pure melodic counterpoint, and it was the moment I learned what it meant to write vertically vs horizontally.


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## peksi (Sep 21, 2013)

i cannot help it but every time i hear ostinatos i get more exited. it just brings that tension or feeling i love so much.

i feel like putting ostinatos to every piece i do and i've spent some time thinking how to get rid of them. 

but then again, why would one need to change something that comes naturally? art is about expressing yourself the most natural way. i've decided that i do whatever stuff comes to my mind and try to get good at it. as long as one differentiates lack from skills with personal taste.


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## Farkle (Sep 21, 2013)

peksi @ Sat Sep 21 said:


> i cannot help it but every time i hear ostinatos i get more exited. it just brings that tension or feeling i love so much.
> 
> i feel like putting ostinatos to every piece i do and i've spent some time thinking how to get rid of them.
> 
> but then again, why would one need to change something that comes naturally? art is about expressing yourself the most natural way. i've decided that i do whatever stuff comes to my mind and try to get good at it. as long as one differentiates lack from skills with personal taste.



There are ostinatos, and then there are _ostinatos_. Building a longer shape to the ostinato, and moving it through chord changes, creates (IMO) a supple, energetic effect. As opposed to an ostinato that's on C minor for two bars, then Ab major for two bars, then back to C minor, which (to me) feels less supple and momentum-driven.

Also, Ostinatos can be interrupted by contrasting figures. One of my fave cues from Minority Report illustrates this: Here it is!

http://youtu.be/5kE7iNxQO6Y

Check out the opening groove. he's established that Dum-dum-dum-dum- da-da-dum da-da-dum (etc.). Does it 2 times, then breaks it up with high tpt triads, then it returns in a different key. Also, uses perc hits to create polyrhythmic off-accents, which creates this propulsive feel. So good!

Now, if you want just a chugging string thing that evolves, check out Everybody Runs From the same film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcI4bu6sMRg

Starts with that double stroked viola thing, but he uses the departing notes from the tonic to move the piece into different key areas. And, again, uses the Vcs/Cbs in octaves to create these off-beat strikes, which really create this nervous propulsion. Williams moves freely between key areas, trusting that if he leads the ostinato to a new key area through logical scale steps, it just flows nicely.

So, ostinatos (in my opinion) can be a jumping off point for a very supple, thematic curve in music. Enjoy!

Mike


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## peksi (Sep 21, 2013)

Farkle @ Sat Sep 21 said:


> There are ostinatos, and then there are _ostinatos_. Building a longer shape to the ostinato, and moving it through chord changes, creates (IMO) a supple, energetic effect. As opposed to an ostinato that's on C minor for two bars, then Ab major for two bars, then back to C minor, which (to me) feels less supple and momentum-driven.
> 
> Also, Ostinatos can be interrupted by contrasting figures. One of my fave cues from Minority Report illustrates this: Here it is!
> 
> ...



I think we are talking about different kind entity (artistically). You are referring to more performance-like part where as I am describing a supportive, repeating element that is constantly in the background. That's what I've though ostinato to be like but I am no expert on musical theory.

A good example of this would be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ3rvI4Pw8c


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## Farkle (Sep 21, 2013)

Oh, I'm not going to nerd out theory wise, with an Ostinato. Basically, any sort of repeating motif that continues (Ostinato derives from the italian for "Stubborn), is an ostinato, in my opinion.

My take is, you can go two ways with an ostinato:

1. Use it as a jumping off point for thematic development, move around key areas, etc.

2. Keep it on those 2,3,4,5 notes, and build stuff over it.

If one does category two, then I think exploring interesting, non-diatonic triads and extensions really makes for an interesting obstinate. That's basically my take on it.


Either way, if you're having fun, that's the most important thing!

Mike


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 21, 2013)

( ostinato = obstinate )


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## Saxer (Sep 22, 2013)

the ostinatos in trailer music turned to be kind of a hihat job. you don't really listen to them though the whole arrangement but if you stop using them in the middle of a track something seems to miss. a way to ecape from this hole is to direct the listeners attention to something new. rhythmic breaks, giving the ostinato job to another section, to a piano or to drums, melodies with movement that takes over, a sudden style change or just a big drop to build everything up again (like the dancefloor guys do very effectively)... lot of possibilities.

annother way to get rid of ostinatos (or any other habit) is to write along an existing arrangement. take a track you like and - in your case - without ostinatos and put it into your daw. then make your own composition and arrange it the same way. don't copy the notes, chords or the rhythm. copy the concept. ah, counterpoint here... so develop some counterpoint parts. ah, rhythmic block chords there... uh, no bass part here at all... here question/answer motives through the register... etc


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## peksi (Sep 22, 2013)

Saxer @ Sun Sep 22 said:


> the ostinatos in trailer music turned to be kind of a hihat job.



maybe you (we) could actually replace ostinatos with hihat or other non melodic rhythmic instrument. just a thought.


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