# Flying Theme from E.T. - John Williams - 100% Cinematic Studio Series



## Illico (Apr 18, 2021)

I would like to share with you my latest mockup done with mainly Cinematic Studio Series libraries.
I really enjoyed doing this. This is one of my favorite soundtrack from John Williams.
Hope VI Control followers will like it.

Libraries used:
- Cinematic Studio Woodwinds (CSW)
- Cinematic Studio Brass (CSB)
- Cinematic Studio Solo Strings (CSSS)
- Cinematic Studio Strings (CSS)





Cinematic Studio Series







cinematicstudioseries.com





- EastWest Symphonic Orchestra - Percussion & Harp (EWQLSO)





Symphonic Orchestra Plugin | East West Quantum Leap | EWQL


Symphonic Orchestra VST plugin is an award-winning orchestral virtual instrument with the most realistic and detailed orchestral sounds.




www.soundsonline.com







After all feedback received, I make some edit changes and I tried some mixing balances on this new version:



I shared some tips during my template building process here:
_Kontakt and Cubase Tracks, MIDI Editing phase_
_Mixing phase
How do I get the MIDI into Cubase ?_
_How does Cubase Logical Editor Legato Delay Offset FIX work?_


----------



## RogiervG (Apr 18, 2021)

Very nicely done!
little constructive feedback:
The mixing needs work, very sudden dynamic jumps. Also maybe play a bit with the mic types and volumes of them. Some sound dry-ish, other very wet, like not in the same room.
Maybe they are all main mics, but it doesn't sound like it at times.
Maybe at an extra overal reverb on them?
with some more cc control and articulations along with the timing adjustments for those articulations, it can even be more realistic

pssstt...since you also used ewql symphonic orchestra sounds, it's technically not "100% cinematic studio series".


----------



## Project Anvil (Apr 18, 2021)

First off all, congratulations on finishing the track, just getting the MIDI data in from the score is quite a lot of work. 

There are definitely places where it comes together nicely (2:40 comes to mind) and there is a lot to like in general about this mockup. If this was your own piece that you had mocked up for a client, this kind of quality of mockup is more than enough to get the job.

That said, if your goal is to create the most realistic mockup you can, there's a whole other level you could take this to. 

But is that your goal? I can't necessarily recommend going down the rabbit hole and aggravating over every little note and performance, it can drive you mad, but it can also be rewarding. It's completely up to you whether you want to go down that path or not, but if you do I would strongly recommend you start by stepping away from the piece for a bit. Give your ears some time to readjust, come back to it in a few days and listen to it again. I think you'll be able to spot the problematic areas yourself if you give yourself some time off.

Or, and this may be smarter to do, give yourself a pat on the back for this achievement and move on to the next piece. It's up to you whether you think it's smart for you to sit with the piece longer, or to move on.


----------



## FredericBernard (Apr 20, 2021)

This sounds shockingly-real - congrats! How much time did you invest?

Amazing work.

-F


----------



## Illico (Apr 21, 2021)

Thank you all for your encouraging words and your comments.

@RogiervG , I will definitely check the mixing. I have some ideas. I will make differents ER bus per sections (I used only one in this first version) and check the reverb mix.
I will also check all mic positions. In this version, I used differents mic position for Strings but I used default mix mic for Woodwinds and Brass (there is enough to do).
For information the RAM used in my PC, with all instruments loaded in Cubase, is about 50Go in this configuraiton. It something I have to deal with.

@Project Anvil , I have many goals for this project.
1/ Build a new template with Cinematic Studio series libraries
2/ Make a piece with only these libraries to build my skills and find tips for a good workflow.
3/ Make a demo to share with community, only with these libraries. I know that this may interest people.
4/ To make an old dream come true, and enjoy it.

@FredericBernard,
I spent about 40 hours (over 3 weeks during spare time) starting from scratch, with the scores only.
This included multiple steps:
* Preparing the template and creating the instrument tracks (one instance of Kontakt per instrument)
* Creating the associated MIDI tracks for divisi.
* Creating the group tracks, premix bus, mix bus and master bus
* Setting the gain staging.
* MIDI editing of each section (the longer step).
* Mixing and mastering (the shortest step, but probably the worst).


----------



## cygnusdei (Apr 22, 2021)

At the outset it sounds quite good, and the instruments sound quite convincing. However, if you're going for the 'live stage' sound, then the spatial arrangement of the sections seems artificial (e.g. harp panned extreme left, sounds like it's coming from the ceiling). Maybe the sections should be spatially arranged as you would hear them from the audience, not from the conductor's podium, if that makes sense. I don't have the score, so here are my two cents as I compare yours to the soundtrack version:
1. There are places where the dynamics sound artificial, e.g: brass at 1:42 to 1:49 - those crescendos sound like someone just turned up the volume knob, and further, there are no such crescendos at all in the soundtrack. Also woodwinds starting at 1:12, to me it sounds like the volumes have been artificially raised beyond what they would be at that dynamic level (ditto compared to the soundtrack).
2. But conversely some dynamic levels seem too low that opportunities to bring out the fun are missed, e.g. the tumbling bass lines at 1:12 and the flute flutters starting 0:35. In fact the flutes sound as if they're missing the repeat notes.
3. I see you are making an interpretive decision to do a ritardando at 1:56 (which is is not in the soundtrack), but it seems that to pull it off you'd need a swelling crescendo, the way it is now is not convincing. In general tempo seems dragging to me, and in fact it is faster in the soundtrack.
4. The ending: the soundtrack doesn't have that extra bar with the final beat.

Given the soundtrack I think it's just a matter of tweaks if you want to model after its sound. I believe one should be his own biggest critic, so I'm sure you'll know what to do.


----------



## Illico (Apr 22, 2021)

@cygnusdei , thanks for your analyse and feedback, I greatly appreciate this type of response.

I used the score sheets for MIDI editing, but I used a reference track for tempo adjustment.

In fact, I did not use the original soundtrack from Boston Pops Orchestra record, but a video of a concert conducted by John Williams himself (don't remember the source). Then you have the answer for differences you spotted (ritardando, speed). I take your comments about mixing completely into consideration. This is definitely the point to improve. Thanks.


----------



## Illico (Apr 22, 2021)

@Project Anvil, I checked your post about your Cinematic Studio Orchestra project and the first Chapter - Horns. Thank you Matthias !! 





Project Anvil's Cinematic Studio Orchestra


Hello there! I've been on something of a quest to try to make a template centered around the Cinematic Studio Series libraries. My goal has been to create a fairly dry, studio sound that has depth and width and isn't drenched in reverb. These are my attempts so far. Any feedback is...




vi-control.net


----------



## LauraC (Apr 27, 2021)

Illico said:


> I would like to share with you my latest mockup done with mainly Cinematic Studio Series libraries.
> I really enjoyed doing this. This is one of my favorite soundtrack from John Williams.
> Hope VI Control followers will like it.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing this. Beautiful! It is on my list to try. May I inquire as to where you purchased the score?


----------



## Illico (Apr 27, 2021)

Thank you @LauraC , the full score come from Hal Leonard edition:





Flying Theme (from E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial) - Deluxe Score - John Williams Signature Edition Orchestra | Hal Leonard Online


View the Product: Flying Theme (from E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial) - Deluxe Score, Series: John Williams Signature Edition Orchestra, Contributors: John Williams




www.halleonard.com


----------



## LauraC (Apr 27, 2021)

Illico said:


> Thank you @LauraC , the full score come from Hal Leonard edition:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## Bernard Duc (Apr 27, 2021)

You already got a lot of good feedback. Here are a couple of extra comments to help you go further (I am listening on laptop speakers right now, but if anything it showcase the most obvious things): 
- Be careful about the balance of your instruments. At the beginning your woodwinds are way too loud compared to the strings and later the mallets are also too loud. the melody doesn't always have to be the loudest thing playing.
- Try to add more dynamics, listen how much decrescendo the strings do at the end of bar 4 in the original version for example. 
- Speaking of dynamics, be careful about the timbre. Listen to what the original version sounds like rather than simply translating the written dynamics to CC1. It's particularly important for brass instruments. They can play much brighter or darker depending on the music, and what "forte" or "piano" means will change a lot depending on the context. A good example is at 1min. Your horns are brassy throughout the entire notes, but if you listen to the original there is only the attack of the note that sometimes get brassy, the rest of the note is a much rounder sound. This is actually pretty standard playing for brass, and it sounds actually more energetic while leaving space for the other instruments. In general you want to pay a lot of attention to this details, because it's what makes a mockup really good, and once you internalize it enough, it will also help you programming your own music!


----------



## TintoL (Apr 27, 2021)

Great rendition of the piece. The end was awesome. 

I find the woodwinds way to clear in the mix. It takes a bit of the realism because the lines that suppose to be support to add color turn into main lines. I would pull them back and lower the volume to be more in balance with the rest. 

Overall awesome.


----------



## Illico (May 1, 2021)

Hi all, very busy at work these weeks.
I found some time to work on my template and this ET mock-up.

Thank you all for you feedback. I will resume each of your feedback soon.
Now, I want to share with you my solution to deal with RAM usage with all Cinematic Studio Series mics on Cubase without Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP). Hope that will make sense and that could help some followers.

For this mock-up I used 35 VSTi, one instance per instrument (27 Kontakt, 8 Play) with expression maps.

Kontakt​Create a preset with 5 Stereo outputs and use the same for all cinematic instruments
_*Mix *_| _*Close *_| _*OH *_| _*Main *_| _*Room*_
For CSS/CSSS instruments OH mic does not exist, then remains unused.
Set all faders to 0dB and all pan to center. This is on the Cubase console that placements will be set.





Cubase Tracks​Create Instruments tracks for each CS series instrument with one instance of Kontakt per instrument. Set the proper expression map.
Create MIDI tracks with news MIDI channels per divisi instrument. On the Kontakt instance, adding multiple times the same instrument did not use much more RAM.








MIDI Edition Phase​During MIDI editing, only use the _*Mix *_mic to limit the RAM usage.
Use the _*Lock*_ button to disabled all editing of all events on the track, to prevent changes mistakes.
Each Mics channel could be viewed by clicking the (-) button at the bottom of the instrument’s track. The default mic level and panning are set here.






​


----------



## Illico (May 1, 2021)

Mixing Phase​During Mixing phase use *Close *| _*Main *_| _*Room*_ mics. _*Freeze *_the Instrument Track.
The instrument is rendered to a Wave audio file.
Editing Insert Effects on channel, Fader, Pan control is still possible and this makes the RAM available again.
When all Instruments Tracks are frozen, it significantly decreases the used RAM.(From 40Go to 4Go)


----------



## OleJoergensen (May 2, 2021)

It sounds wonderful! It must have been both demanding and satisfying working with this mockup.
Thank you for sharing!


----------



## Steve Martin (May 2, 2021)

Sounds awesome!

Thanks for sharing this. This is beautifully done. The musicianship, the sense of phrase and expression, are wonderful. 

best,

Steve


----------



## Steve Martin (May 3, 2021)

hi


Illico said:


> I would like to share with you my latest mockup done with mainly Cinematic Studio Series libraries.
> I really enjoyed doing this. This is one of my favorite soundtrack from John Williams.
> Hope VI Control followers will like it.
> 
> ...



Hi Illico, 

just wanting to know how you got the midi into Cubase? Did you play the parts in?

I know of the latency when using the more advanced legato settings. So, how did you manage to get all of the instruments to play together with the latency?
I mean, if you have a fast legato passage, and the other parts are not using a fast legato patch, just the more basic one, how did you sync them together with the latency? I'm guessing you may have either moved the notes around, or you may have used the trick of setting the timing back for each track as the first CSS videos explained how to do.
I'm just thinking that maybe you used different tracks for faster passages in the same instrument, and a different one for the same instrument that uses the more slower type of legato patch.
Hope you don't mind the questions. It's that I have a number of scores of original compositions in Sibelius that I could export into Cubase 11, and use an expression map, and edit the controllers from there for my CSS library. The other option, which would probably be more suited to the actual CSS library, would be to play the parts in. So, that's the reason I'm asking quite a few questions here. 

Thanks if you are able to answer some of my questions. 

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## Illico (May 3, 2021)

@Bernard Duc, thanks you for your extra comments. I completely agree with your tips and tried to take into account in my latest adjustments.
@OleJoergensen, yeah, I really like to work on this mockup.

To be honest, I'm still far from mastering the mix and sometimes I feel like I'm taking 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.
I tried to modify the balance between sections and made 3 mix regions in space FRONT | MID | REAR, first with Strings, then Winds and Brass+Perc.
I pulled back Woodwinds and Glock/Celesta.
I also did some CC dynamics change, but did not pass more times on MIDI editing (Its not my goal now).

I would like to have your opinions on this new version of the mix.




@Steve Martin, stay tune, I will explain my workflow.


----------



## South Thames (May 3, 2021)

The remix sounds much better. Amazing how often the woodwind balance on this piece trips people up.

I would take a look at 1:32 - the last notes of the phrases of the tune should be detached. Da da da da da daaa da da da -- Da da da da da daaa da da daa etc. You have them running into each other.

My other comment would be that the horns sound blurred and indistinct throughout (same is true of the trumpets at the end). They need to brought up in the mix but also to sound brassier when the are being used melodically. I'm not familiar with CSB but I would have thought they could do better than this.


----------



## Illico (May 3, 2021)

Steve Martin said:


> hi
> 
> Hi Illico,
> 
> ...


Hi Steve,

So if you want to import in Cubase, tracks from Sibelius:
One solution I'm thinking of, should be to use separated Tracks for Shorts (delayed -60ms) and tracks for Legato lines, fix velocity to Medium or Fast and fix the delay offset to -40ms or -190ms or something between. I suggest you watch this video from Anne-Kathrin Dern:



Another solution, I used for CSS, much more precise but tricky. Set default track delay to -60 ms, then you should edit Velocity for Notes that use Sustain Legato or Marcato Legato and you could use the following Logical Editor trick to offset the delay.
I take the opportunity to detail the workflow used for this E.T. Mockup.

_*How do I get the MIDI into Cubase ?*_

From the score sheet, sometimes with the Pencil tool on Key Editor, sometimes playing on my keyboard. It depends on bar complexity. I transcript the score and quantize notes.
I set Expression Map Articulations with the Pencil tool (I have 3, CSW, CSB, CSS/CSSS expression maps for these libraries).
For Legato articulations, I set Note Velocity according to the Advanced Legato Speed I want (Fast Legato, Medium Legato, Slow Legato, Portamento)..
Then I select a part (a range of legato Notes) and I use Logical Editors's presets to automatically adjust the Note's start according to the Velocity level. (Tips: do not select the first note of the phrase, mostly it should not be delayed).
And finally, I draw with the Pencil tool all Controllers (Expression C11, Modulation CC1, Vibrato CC2, Sustain CC64). Sometimes I record with my Keyboard controller faders.
I make some adjustments by ear.
The Cinematic Studio series libraries are very consistent and all instruments use the same process.






_*How does Cubase Logical Editor Legato Delay Offset FIX work?*_

I set a negative delay (-60ms) on each track for ALL Cinematic Studio Series instruments.
The Shorts articulations don't need to be delayed on the Key editor, only the legato one.
Then for Notes with Legato, a negative offset delay should be added according to the documentation (Slow(0-64) -273ms, Medium(65-100) -190ms, Fast(101-127) -40ms).

For CSS, there were 3 presets to adjust the legato offset delay according to the Velocity level. I apply at the same time, with a Key commands shortcut, the 3 presets on the selected Notes. Only Notes that match the LE presets are delayed.

All Cinematic Studio Instruments use the same process, in my workflow, I use multiple Key commands, one per section.
Ctrl+Shift+F1 : Woodwinds
Ctrl+Shift+F2 : Brass (Trp) (because Trumpets don’t have the same Medium delay value)
Ctrl+Shift+F3 : Brass
Ctrl+Shift+F4 : Strings

I suggest you this link from Stephen Bennett that use similar trick, but explain very well in his video


----------



## Steve Martin (May 3, 2021)

Illico said:


> @Bernard Duc, thanks you for your extra comments. I completely agree with your tips and tried to take into account in my latest adjustments.
> @OleJoergensen, yeah, I really like to work on this mockup.
> 
> To be honest, I'm still far from mastering the mix and sometimes I feel like I'm taking 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.
> ...



Hi Illico,

that would be really great! Thank you


----------



## Steve Martin (May 3, 2021)

Illico said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> So if you want to import in Cubase, tracks from Sibelius:
> One solution I'm thinking of, should be to use separated Tracks for Shorts (delayed -60ms) and tracks for Legato lines, fix velocity to Medium or Fast and fix the delay offset to -40ms or -190ms or something between. I suggest you watch this video from Anne-Kathrin Dern:
> ...



Hi Illico, 

Thank you so much! I'm going to bookmark that post as it is an incredibly detailed and amazingly helpful. You have given much of your personal time to answer and you have gone the second mile, and I'm so incredibly appreciative of it. So very kind of you to help me out, and I'm sure others will be also. Again, thank you

best regards,

Steve


----------



## exilio (May 3, 2021)

Amazing work!


----------



## Illico (May 4, 2021)

South Thames said:


> The remix sounds much better. Amazing how often the woodwind balance on this piece trips people up.
> 
> I would take a look at 1:32 - the last notes of the phrases of the tune should be detached. Da da da da da daaa da da da -- Da da da da da daaa da da daa etc. You have them running into each other.
> 
> My other comment would be that the horns sound blurred and indistinct throughout (same is true of the trumpets at the end). They need to brought up in the mix but also to sound brassier when the are being used melodically. I'm not familiar with CSB but I would have thought they could do better than this.


Thank you @South Thames,

About stuff at 1:32, you finally point a Cubase issue. In fact when I played this part on Cubase, I had the 'detached' in the phrase. But during the rendering process, on stems, I had an another performance !!. This is due to an Expression Map issue. I added some CC64=0 to disable some Legato, then now the phrase is detached, I update the first post with new Soundcloud track (I also try some changes on CSB). Thanks.


----------



## RogiervG (May 7, 2021)

Illico said:


> @Bernard Duc, thanks you for your extra comments. I completely agree with your tips and tried to take into account in my latest adjustments.
> @OleJoergensen, yeah, I really like to work on this mockup.
> 
> To be honest, I'm still far from mastering the mix and sometimes I feel like I'm taking 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.
> ...



i prefer the first version, compared to this one. There is someting wrong with this one, very muddy and odd balance.


----------



## Thorgod10 (Jul 10, 2021)

Outstanding quality.
While mixing chops can always be improved, this is not the primary goal of a mockup, and yo conveyed the musicality and style of the composition incredibly well


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Nov 26, 2021)

Illico said:


> I would like to share with you my latest mockup done with mainly Cinematic Studio Series libraries.
> I really enjoyed doing this. This is one of my favorite soundtrack from John Williams.
> Hope VI Control followers will like it.
> 
> ...



respect! you mocked up one of my absolute favourite scores of all time. One I don't dare to touch. And I am supposed to be a professional TV composer :/

Great job, only the mixing is a tad to dry ro my ears and some dynamics are a tad off. But really, maevelous work! I would probably not have the balls to share


----------

