# Melodic Horn Shootout



## José Herring (Oct 3, 2020)

Did a quick little mock up of the lead line of Goldsmith's first contact using 5 different horn ensembles. Tell me which one you like best and why, ie, tone quality, connection, overall musicality, ect...

5 examples back to back with about 5-7 seconds between each example. Example 2 and 3 are four horn ensemble patches because the library either didn't have 6 horns or I didn't have that patch. The rest are 6 horn ensembles.

Midi cc adjusted as best I could for each patch. Also, little midi tweaking for each patch. Tried to volume match as best I could and also the same reverb on all patches (which isn't ideal but I didn't feel like adjusting the reverb for each room). Mic positions are as consistent as I could make them from library to library.

**Original deleted. New Revised with 2 new entries so 7 total now


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## Kent (Oct 3, 2020)

#2 was my favorite—something very clear, natural, and noble in the tone which the other four did not have.

_disclaimer: listened on iPhone speakers at a fairly low volume level 😛_


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## José Herring (Oct 3, 2020)

kmaster said:


> #2 was my favorite—something very clear, natural, and noble in the tone which the other four did not have.
> 
> _disclaimer: listened on iPhone speakers at a fairly low volume level 😛_


Yeah, number 2 surprised me. I was a little shocked that it turned out as good as it did. Very little in the way of editing too. It tended to hold on to the legato for way after I let go of the note so I needed to shorten some releases and that's it. In the end that was the fastest one to program.


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## CT (Oct 3, 2020)

I most like the tone of #3, and, I think, the transitions of #1. But I'd go for the third overall.


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## John Longley (Oct 3, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Did a quick little mock up of the lead line of Goldsmith's first contact using 5 different horn ensembles. Tell me which one you like best and why, ie, tone quality, connection, overall musicality, ect...
> 
> 5 examples back to back with about 5-7 seconds between each example. Example 2 and 3 are four horn ensemble patches because the library either didn't have 6 horns or I didn't have that patch. The rest are 6 horn ensembles.
> 
> Midi cc adjusted as best I could for each patch. Also, little midi tweaking for each patch. Tried to volume match as best I could and also the same reverb on all patches (which isn't ideal but I didn't feel like adjusting the reverb for each room). Mic positions are as consistent as I could make them from library to library.


I like the sustain tone of 3 the best, but the attack is slightly too soft. I like the attack on 1, but it's a little too buzzy if exposed. 2 was safe.


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## José Herring (Oct 3, 2020)

John Longley said:


> I like the sustain tone of 3 the best, but the attack is slightly too soft. I like the attack on 1, but it's a little too buzzy if exposed. 2 was safe.


Interesting. Yeah I couldn't get rid of the buzz in number one. I tried by lowering cc 1 but then at the lower level the patch fell apart. Connections disjointed, ect... That buzz comes from the developer stretching the higher FF dynamic down to make the transition smoother. Bit of a lazy programming trick from the old days. But,iIn the end, that library wasn't made for soft. 

Interesting that you liked 3. I liked that one too. It only has a mix mic position. I think if I had the full library with the multiple mics I might have thrown in a bit of close mic on a lead line like that.


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## John Longley (Oct 3, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Interesting. Yeah I couldn't get rid of the buzz in number one. I tried by lowering cc 1 but then at the lower level the patch fell apart. Connections disjointed, ect... That buzz comes from the developer stretching the higher FF dynamic down to make the transition smoother. Bit of a lazy programming trick from the old days. But,iIn the end, that library wasn't made for soft.
> 
> Interesting that you liked 3. I liked that one too. It only has a mix mic position. I think if I had the full library with the multiple mics I might have thrown in a bit of close mic on a lead line like that.


Interesting we had the same thoughts. I think the buzz would be fine in a reasonably dense mix but it's a deal breaker up front....maybe. Interested for you to reveal which is which! Thanks for doing this.


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## José Herring (Oct 3, 2020)

John Longley said:


> Interesting we had the same thoughts. I think the buzz would be fine in a reasonably dense mix but it's a deal breaker up front....maybe. Interested for you to reveal which is which! Thanks for doing this.


Trying to decide if I want to post it publicly. I think that if people want to PM me I will let them know. I don't want to start a war of what library is better than the other library, ect... This is only one usage and I just wanted to find out which library could do this type of line the best.


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## John Longley (Oct 3, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Trying to decide if I want to post it publicly. I think that if people want to PM me I will let them know. I don't want to start a war of what library is better than the other library, ect... This is only one usage and I just wanted to find out which library could do this type of line the best.


Please do PM if you don't mind, really want to know.


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## Robo Rivard (Oct 3, 2020)

The tone of #3 is intriguing, but it's not played as well as the other samples.


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## José Herring (Oct 3, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> The tone of #3 is intriguing, but it's not played as well as the other samples.


3 has a great tone but the programming leaves a little to be desired. I did the best I could but in the end I would have probably not used a line that needed this much legato in that library. The legato isn't working and for some reason cuts the volume by 1/2 in the transition then never really gets to the actual note before moving to the next note. kind of mad about that because at first I was excited because the tone is so terrific.


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## Robo Rivard (Oct 3, 2020)

At the end of the day, we use certain libraries for certain strenghts, and use other libraires for other.


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2020)

Do share! (PM is fine)


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## I like music (Oct 4, 2020)

Thank you for doing a comparison on one of my all-time (like friggin' ALL TIME) favourite themes ever. I liked the transitions on 1. I really liked 3 as well (felt it was quite consistent). Admittedly, I was in the shower when I heard it all, so will listen again.

Just one question, is there a wrong note in there? I ask because I don't have good ears but I'm sure that in the final part of the theme, that 4-note rising part's lowest note should be a few tones higher. I'll go to the piano and try to work out what I heard and what I remember.

Again, talk about a beautiful melody. Damn Jerry.


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## Henu (Oct 4, 2020)

Those lungs the players have here! :D


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2020)

Nice one José. Please DM when you have the time, no rush. But curious!


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2020)

I like music said:


> Just one question, is there a wrong note in there? I ask because I don't have good ears but I'm sure that in the final part of the theme, that 4-note rising part's lowest note should be a few tones higher. I'll go to the piano and try to work out what I heard and what I remember.


That figure toward the end should be E-F-C-D, not D-E-C-D


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## I like music (Oct 4, 2020)

kmaster said:


> That figure toward the end should be E-F-C-D, not D-E-C-D


Aye, thought that might be the case.


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## GingerMaestro (Oct 4, 2020)

Henu said:


> Those lungs the players have here! :D


Yes...Could do with some spaces for breathing, makes the phrases sound rather unnatural. None the less great comparison. Would love to see the results of you might be able to DM me. Thanks again for doing this. GM


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 4, 2020)

There's way too much reverb for my taste, José...hard to judge horns like that IMO


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2020)

Henu said:


> Those lungs the players have here! :D





GingerMaestro said:


> Yes...Could do with some spaces for breathing, makes the phrases sound rather unnatural.




José's examples are basically what it should sound like, though—an ultra-connected _cantabile_.

There are 6 horns in unison, so breathing-points can be obscured with ease.

(And thanks, @José Herring...do you know how hard it is for me to get this out of my head on a _good_ day? What a tune...!)


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## Macrawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Interesting how different they are. For that piece #1 is clearly the best as I envision this fanfare sound and that has it. 

I don't dislike any of them and can see uses for each one.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Oct 4, 2020)

Revealing here may help purchase decisions of future community visitors. It’s all subjective in the end


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## Marsen (Oct 4, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Did a quick little mock up of the lead line of Goldsmith's first contact using 5 different horn ensembles. Tell me which one you like best and why, ie, tone quality, connection, overall musicality, ect...



I´m a trekkie, and I really know First Contact & it´s sound.
The First one is by far the most authentic.

Why? The mellow dynamic, warm & full sound and legato transients.
Example 5 wasn´t bad, but was to brassy.

The rest of them there rather disappointing.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 4, 2020)

Hi Jose', for this piece I think that #1 is most like the original. Is it CineBrass Sonore?


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## mussnig (Oct 4, 2020)

Thank you for this comparison - very interesting! I hope that you will reveal the libs at some point - I am very curious.

I saw that quite some people like no. 3. However, I liked 3 the least. Might sound better (to my ears) with some eq. - not enough clarity and not raspy enough for my taste. I guess I liked 1 and 2 the most. Obviously, preferences vary.


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## Henu (Oct 4, 2020)

kmaster said:


> José's examples are basically what it should sound like, though—an ultra-connected _cantabile_.
> 
> There are 6 horns in unison, so breathing-points can be obscured with ease.



Brilliant point, I stand corrected!


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## I like music (Oct 4, 2020)

Can it be made into a poll?


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

I will do a reveal with thoughts tonight.

Sections stagger breathing what is important is the continuity of the line and not breath marks. If it were solo it would be different.

Yeah. It should be an e and not a d. I was doing it by ear and didn't spend any time checking it against the original.

Thx for the input so far.


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## Frederick (Oct 4, 2020)

#2 is my favourite one. I agree with kmaster, that it sounds noble - I was thinking of the word "regal" myself when I was listening to it and that is definitely what's the most defining quality of the First Contact's main melody is to me.

I agree with I like music that this is one of the most beautiful melodies in film scores ever.

I've been an enormous fan of Star trek soundtracks ever since I saw Star Trek II in the cinema with a cousin of mine back in the day when I was sixteen year old. Went straight from the movies to the record store to buy the OST afterwards(James Horner). That last part of "Genesis Countdown". First the horns and then those violins... Somehow those violins have always reminded me of figure skaters riding backwards through a curve...

I also spotted there was something wrong at the end, although as a noob I wasn't entirely sure if it was a wrong note or that it was caused by missing instruments playing a crucial part of a cord.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 4, 2020)

1 is a clear winner to me. It has more body to the sound than the others.
2 sounds good too, it sounds more accurate than 1. I still prefer 1 because of it's tone though.
3 fails utterly for me. It sounds unclear/unfocused/blurry.
4 is not very good.
5 is not very good either - it has a hard attack on every note, which I don't like.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 4, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Thank you for this comparison - very interesting! I hope that you will reveal the libs at some point - I am very curious.
> 
> I saw that quite some people like no. 3. However, I liked 3 the least. Might sound better (to my ears) with some eq. - not enough clarity and not raspy enough for my taste. I guess I liked 1 and 2 the most. Obviously, preferences vary.


Interesting that you also thought 3 lacked clarity considering how several others in this thread state they like it. And that you liked 1 and 2 the most, again just like me.


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## NoamL (Oct 4, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Did a quick little mock up of the lead line of Goldsmith's first contact using 5 different horn ensembles. Tell me which one you like best and why, ie, tone quality, connection, overall musicality, ect...
> 
> 5 examples back to back with about 5-7 seconds between each example. Example 2 and 3 are four horn ensemble patches because the library either didn't have 6 horns or I didn't have that patch. The rest are 6 horn ensembles.
> 
> Midi cc adjusted as best I could for each patch. Also, little midi tweaking for each patch. Tried to volume match as best I could and also the same reverb on all patches (which isn't ideal but I didn't feel like adjusting the reverb for each room). Mic positions are as consistent as I could make them from library to library.



I am NOT a horn player but...

1. Okay. Feels a little flat and unmusical. Too much verb. Tone is great but the legato transitions sound just a bit fake? I am guessing Cinebrass.

2. Too much verb... the space between mf and ff sounds audibly like a crossfade, like a mf sample with some buzz on top of it... the slur transitions are practically nonexistent.

3. Too much verb.... here the transitions are too audible and sluggish.

4. well, this is the least good 

5. Hard to judge this one, it's drowned in verb!

I would probably use 1 or 5, but it seems to me that neither SSO nor CSB are represented here, and that's what I use for horns currently.


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

Uggg....Quit it with the verb complaints. I just slapped a verb on just to give it some verb. Judge the tone quality of the patch and judge the musicality of the line.

Anyway I'm about to put up 2 more on there and I'd like to spend a little more time working with the patches. And, yes, this time I'll cool it on the verb! I might even route each patch to it's own verb!!!! OMG!!!

So hold tight for a little longer.


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## NoamL (Oct 4, 2020)

I made an attempt as well... this is harder than it looks, especially to do it at the correct dynamic... not a lot of room down there.


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## NoamL (Oct 4, 2020)

By the way @José Herring my critiques were of what I hear in the libraries, not your mockup skills at all. Sorry if I was being too curt.


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

NoamL said:


> By the way @José Herring my critiques were of what I hear in the libraries, not your mockup skills at all. Sorry if I was being too curt.


Understood. I didn't take it personally. Just the last thing on my mind was the reverb. But, I should know better.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 4, 2020)

Going to get flamed for saying this, but im not familiar with the actual theme - but I played the first chunk based on the examples to my memory

this is using no reverb, and I'm sure it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what library this is XD


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 4, 2020)

oops, I missed the entire first hook of the melody - lemme redo that.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 4, 2020)

I'm a really bad person, sorry

second example had the midi tweaked a little after - for a little extra humanization


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## Batrawi (Oct 4, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> There's way too much reverb for my taste, José...hard to judge horns like that IMO


this. and I'm not sure why #1 was played with higher dynamics than the other ones which is unfair (unless the library itself cannot go softer than that -which would also be unfair to put it in such composition if it's not designed for that  ). I also noticed there is hardly any changes in the dynamics, which is makes it hard to really test & compare the musicality between the libraries.


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## NoamL (Oct 4, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> second example had the midi tweaked a little after - for a little extra humanization



This is JXLB? The soft dynamics aren't bad at all!


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

Okay, I've added two more. Please check the original post for the revised shooutout that has 2 additional entries.

Besides the additional entries I've reedited some of the patches, did a little more volume matching and yes, I ran each library to its own reverb send so I had more control of the room.

The original 5 are still in the same order but have been edited some more. The last 1 added is a bit of a surprise.

Listen, comment on the tone and musicality of each patch. Tell me your favorite. And please, no more comments about the reverb 

The reveal with explanations will come tomorrow.

PS: I've added the new file here for convenience.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 4, 2020)

NoamL said:


> This is JXLB? The soft dynamics aren't bad at all!


you'd probably manage much better than me on this - but shhhh


I should have used the soft instead of immediate legato, but I was just kinda being lazy. I also use all solo, a4 and a6 as basically different "mics" and I tweaked these a bit so that sometimes the solo horn would peak out a little more during a transition, or a little more a4 a little less a6 or vice versa - stuff I could do here and there to add a little more dimension to it. - so most of this stays in the first 40-50% of the mod wheel, but the solo horn peaks above that a little. I've got range below that that barely got used(the first 20% or so) because I didn't feel like it was as "noble" as I needed.

the most visible layer is the a6 horns, and you can see the 2 seperate lines which were the a4 and solo.


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> this. and I'm not sure why #1 was played with higher dynamics than the other ones which is unfair (unless the library itself cannot go softer than that -which would also be unfair to put it in such composition if it's not designed for that  ). I also noticed there is hardly any changes in the dynamics, which is makes it hard to really test & compare the musicality between the libraries.


I've fixed that. 

The line is one dynamic for the most part with a little rise as it goes up to the high "D". Putting any more dynamics in just destroyed the continuity and also isn't what Goldsmith wrote.

Also, the first one has problems. The loud layer starts way to soon making it hard to play anything other the mf and above. But, more on that later.


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## CT (Oct 4, 2020)

José Herring said:


> I've fixed that.
> 
> The line is one dynamic for the most part with a little rise as it goes up to the high "D". Putting any more dynamics in just destroyed the continuity and also isn't what Goldsmith wrote.



Yeah, it's always tempting to be overzealous with the modwheel when using VIs, but that's often not how real parts are played. You just hope the samples have enough life in them to survive without ridiculous dynamic riding....


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Yeah, it's always tempting to be overzealous with the modwheel when using VIs, but that's often not how real parts are played. You just hope the samples have enough life in them to survive without ridiculous dynamic riding....


Yep. And there in lies the problem. 

Though I did find JXL with it's wide dynamic range to be a little more forgiving. I need to explore that one more as I'm still just learning it.

Like the mention of using the softer patch, doh! Never even thought of that which is stupid. 

I'm going to give it a try now.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 4, 2020)

@NoamL here is the same midi, but scaled down to the first 2 dynamics only - and then cc1 at 0 the entire phrase

and @Mike T I agree - you should be able to get a mostly workable phrase without touching a modwheel if you're using samples... We tend to ride the modwheel all over tarnation but if we were composing on paper we'd not be writing a zillion dynamic markings - but rather we would put something like "mf" and the players "modwheel" would hover mostly around that dynamic. I'm trying to teach myself restraint - and I can tell you that having 5 dynamic layers helps with that a lot, because if I rode the modwheel like I do sample modeling it would sound like a drunk horn section.


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

Also, if I were doing it for real I wouldn't play it all on one patch. This is just a shootout of the legato patches on a melody that uses a lot of soft legato playing. 

That's all.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 4, 2020)

I think with something like this, the obvious choice should be a combination of lower mod wheel and some cc7 or cc11 riding - but that would make a horn comparison significantly more complicated haha.


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

NoamL said:


> I made an attempt as well... this is harder than it looks, especially to do it at the correct dynamic... not a lot of room down there.


This is good.


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## MSutherlandComp (Oct 4, 2020)

Love stuff like this where there are multiple libraries playing the same line. Would love to know which libraries they are! I would rank them as follows: 1, 4, 3, 2, 5.


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## NoamL (Oct 4, 2020)

José Herring said:


> This is good.



My horns are


Spoiler



CSB 4Horns + SSO Solo Horn. Processing is the SONY IR from Spaces.



In your new showdown, I like #1 the best for sure. And I'll go out on a short limb and guess it's


Spoiler



Cinebrass


...  if only they recorded more dynamics of legato transitions! Beautiful tone though! It just has that FILM SCORE sound. And it actually sounds melodic down there at the low dynamics, there's some motion & emotion...

#6 is interesting as well. 

#7 has the right emotion, seems like the legato transitions are sourced from a higher dynamic though.

New faves are 1, 6, 7, 3.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 4, 2020)

1 Good legato, nice body to the tone, BUT there is a ”little sound” at the end of many notes however, not sure how to explain it, but I don’t like it, it sounds fake/synthy – however this horn sounds the most ”horn-like” of all the examples and that sounds great! (Library: no idea)

2 Great/effortless legato but lacks bottom end/body to the sound (CSB)

3 Unclear/unfocused/blurry – sounds a little synthy (Infinite Brass)

4 Legato sounds really good, tone is fine – best-sounding horn of the examples IMO (HWB)

5 Don’t like the ”hard” attack there is on every note (Cinebrass)

6 Tone not very good, too dark (Library: no idea)

7 I don’t like how almost every tone has that ”little sound” at the end of it (just as the horn in #1 has, as mentioned above) - not sure how to explain it properly, but again, it sounds fake/synthy (Library: No idea)

*Edit:*
Since the others rank them, I'll do that too 

Ranked from best to worst:
4, 1, 2, 5, 6, 3/7

*Edit2:*
Thanks for doing this, @José Herring  
I know we're not supposed to talk about reverb (!), and I'm not trying to be an a... about it, but it's much easier to hear the character of each horn in this second file. Good job.


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2020)

Interesting so far. 

Surprising in other instances.

Also, some of it is just me. 3 of these libraries I just started using and one I just got tonight.


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## CT (Oct 4, 2020)

I like the first one here. The second, I'm not really into for this line. Third is nice. The fourth sounds like it just can't get mellow enough. Fifth feels a bit wonky. Sixth is, as Noam put it, interesting. Seven is a bit unfocused in sound. 

1, 3, and 6 are the most solid.


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## Batrawi (Oct 5, 2020)

#3 is the best for me. the notes are better connected than the other ones that either feel more bumpy or unclear in comparison. the tone is also full, rich & majestic without overdoing it like the other ones


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## Frederick (Oct 5, 2020)

I don't like #1 at all. Maybe it's my laptop, but that extra glow seems to end up resonating into a bee zoom on my end. 3# also seems to have a moment of unpleasant distortion.

I still like #2 the most, followed by #4. All these libraries are probably capable of doing this part convincingly when fully dressed.


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## Henu (Oct 5, 2020)

NoamL said:


> My horns are
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...



Concerning the processing, would you care to reveal the preset name of that? I have my gut feeling


Spoiler



(using EWS2 which doesn't have anything labeled as "Sony" at least, not sure about the #1 though)


 but I'd be interested to know what it is called. Also, I'm not sure if my own spoiler was necessarily needed but what the hell, let's bee too considerate. :D


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

Haven't looked at @NoamL's spoiler yet, but based on the hissiness I'm going to guess he was using CSB. (I'll check after this and confirm.) Despite that hiss, it was well-performed, and the tone is very close otherwise. Good job! :::::: (Yep, I was right)

@José Herring's Revised examples (and this time listening through my HD600s for maximum clarity...and of course the comments are about the sound of the samples and not José's performances _per se_):

1. Nice tone, but there's a bit of a "burp" at the beginning of most of the attacks that's a little off-putting. There's also an interesting artifact around 0:50 where the horns seem to...re-'legato' into the note? Interesting. Great spatialization!

2. Crystal-clear tone, could occasionally use a *bit* more transition from note to note. I think this is the same #2 as before, and for some reason I like it although it's not quite as round as the film recording. Great spatialization!

3. There's a _lot_ I like about this one, but each piece just seems somehow indistinct. There's also a weird chuttering at the high D at 2:57-:58 that seems sample-y—maybe a filter or something? Spatialization indistinctly "left-ish" as well. I guess we could call this the "Joe Biden"  I guess the whole is greater than the sum of the parts?

4. This one seems to wander a bit in the stereo field. Some transitions are funky. No like.

5. This seems like a plastic version of 1. Missing a strong but buzz-free dynamic layer. Meh.

6. Love the sound of the room and the 'players'. There is a bit of pitchiness which might work well in an original piece but detracts from the recreation of something I know so well.

7. Very clear and musical. Great spatialization. Probably also a true a6 patch? Although there are a few odd transitions, overall I have to say this is probably my favorite in this batch.


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

Henu said:


> Concerning the processing, would you care to reveal the preset name of that? I have my gut feeling
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...






Spoiler









Anyone know the specifics on QL Spaces' spaces?


Considering how they've named the presets, I guess it's possible that they don't want to, or can't, disclose exactly where the IR's were taken, but I wondered if anyone knew any of the specifics. I'd especially like to know what "NY Church" was used.



vi-control.net


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## sinkd (Oct 5, 2020)

Not sure if I've heard this library yet:


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## Digivolt (Oct 5, 2020)

kmaster said:


> There's also an interesting artifact around 0:50



I wouldn't call it interesting I'd say it sounds terrible, it's a shame as 1 does have the best tone but it's ruined by that issue at 50 seconds

2 & 3 get my vote, 1 would have won if not for that issue


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## Beans (Oct 5, 2020)

As expected, opinions are all over the place. One that I didn't like is near the top for someone else, and vice versa.

Maybe we need a "your top three" poll, including ones posted by other users.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 5, 2020)

Beans said:


> As expected, opinions are all over the place. One that I didn't like is near the top for someone else, and vice versa.


I think it’s great! It shows that there are many viable library choices out there nowadays.


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## Macrawn (Oct 5, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm a really bad person, sorry
> 
> second example had the midi tweaked a little after - for a little extra humanization


You got that sort of Aaron Copland Common Man sound out of them which you said they could do. Really nice sound.


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

kmaster said:


> Haven't looked at @NoamL's spoiler yet, but based on the hissiness I'm going to guess he was using CSB. (I'll check after this and confirm.) Despite that hiss, it was well-performed, and the tone is very close otherwise. Good job! :::::: (Yep, I was right)
> 
> @José Herring's Revised examples (and this time listening through my HD600s for maximum clarity...and of course the comments are about the sound of the samples and not José's performances _per se_):
> 
> ...


Fascinating. I'd have to say that we kind of hear things the same.


Beans said:


> As expected, opinions are all over the place. One that I didn't like is near the top for someone else, and vice versa.
> 
> Maybe we need a "your top three" poll, including ones posted by other users.


I'm utterly fascinated by the varying opinions. 

Reveal coming soon along with my opinions and also admissions to my own fault in not really knowing some of the libraries.


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Fascinating. I'd have to say that we kind of hear things the same.
> 
> I'm utterly fascinated by the varying opinions.
> 
> Reveal coming soon along with my opinions and also admissions to my own fault in not really knowing some of the libraries.


Hah! It must be because I am also a (albeit much poorer) clarinetist


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## doctoremmet (Oct 5, 2020)

kmaster said:


> It must be because I am also a (much poorer) clarinetist


Last night I dreamt I bought a clarinet and learned to play it (really!). So let’s say a 48 yo guy would follow this dream, what is a good clarinet to start out with?


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## NoamL (Oct 5, 2020)

Henu said:


> Concerning the processing, would you care to reveal the preset name of that? I have my gut feeling
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...



I would bet Culver Stage 1 is SONY (and if not... Culver Stage 2 is  )

Hollywood Stage Large = fairly high confidence that it's FOX Newman, it sounds about right.




kmaster said:


> based on the hissiness I'm going to guess he was using CSB



A necessary price to pay  actually sometimes I turn up 8k+ on CSB. It fits into place well with a full orchestra.


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Last night I dreamt I bought a clarinet and learned to play it (really!). So let’s say a 48 yo guy would follow this dream, what is a good clarinet to start out with?


I'm sure there are better opinions (@José Herring ?) , but "back in my day" the favored intermediate-level clarinet was the Buffet Crampon E11.

Do be careful with used clarinets; for one thing, heavy and/or poor swab use will widen the bore over time, resulting in tuning problems.

IMO avoid "beginner-level" clarinets, as those are usually cheap wood (bad) or plastic (also bad except for marching band...which is a concept 30 years and one continent away from you)

ALTHOUGH (not to derail this thread too much)

Metal is also cool for marching band  (you could say it's pretty BRÜTAL) I found an old one from the 1930s and got it fixed up for my 5th and final year of undergrad...and the cameras LOVED me! 



Spoiler: Go Dawgs


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Last night I dreamt I bought a clarinet and learned to play it (really!). So let’s say a 48 yo guy would follow this dream, what is a good clarinet to start out with?


@kmaster gives some good advice. 

Stay away from all beginner clarinets they all by and large suck balls. 

Your best bang for your buck is intermediate clarinets. Actually my teacher who was the principle clarinetist of the NY Philharmonic never used anything for his entire 50 career but the Buffet Crampon E11. My jaw dropped when I found that out. 

Buffet R13 which is what I've always used was for many years the top of the line Buffet. It still is a masterpiece of an instrument which in many ways hasn't been bettered by Buffet. After the R13 Buffets changed so much that I can hardly use them. The R13 is considered lower professional grade now but it many ways it's still the king and was so for more than 40 years. 

Don't discount the intermediate Yamaha models. You won't get that full rich sound from those clarinets but at the beginning to intermediate levels you'll not notice for some time to come. Yamaha tends to have a bit of a lighter easier blow than Buffet or Selmer clarinets.

Lastly, Selmer makes some really good clarinets. I literally know nothing about them though. I just know that the guy that I use to sit in front at festivals and in school orchestras is now the principle clarinetist of the Chicago Symphony ( me jealous, naahh.. ). He uses Selmers exclusively. I do know that Selmer intermediate clarinets when I was growing up were solid but a bit harder to play than Buffet. 

The other thing is to get a good mouthpiece. A great intermediate mouthpiece that is used by many people who I would consider professional are made by Leblanc. When I was in school he came to New York and made many copies of my teachers mouthpiece which I believe was an old Casper. I still use that to this day and it has an amazing sound. Just make sure you order it directly from Leblanc. That's true for any instrument really. There are a lot of Chinese knock offs floating around these days. Mouthpieces are so inexpensive though that you should get 3 or more and then try the one that is easier for you to play. 

Start with a number 3 reed and as you get more chops step it up to 31/2 to 4 so you can get the higher notes. I use only Vandoren reeds.

Okay, now for the reveal....it's coming soon......


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## doctoremmet (Oct 5, 2020)

@José Herring @kmaster Thanks chaps! I really appreciate this and may get one for christmas. My undying love for woodwinds (samples as well as music containing them) may lead me to a totally new instrument, after 42 years of piano / synths and drums. Much obliged!!


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> @José Herring @kmaster Thanks chaps! I really appreciate this and may get one for christmas. My undying love for woodwinds (samples as well as music containing them) may lead me to a totally new instrument, after 42 years of piano / synths and drums. Much obliged!!


Don't forget to budget for a good instructor—at least for "classical/concert" style clarinet, especially probably French school, there are a lot of physical quirks that are much easier to learn and establish from the get-go than to unlearn the sloppy alternative and try to beef up later. Having a pro in the room (in the Zoom?) with you will really help.


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## NoamL (Oct 5, 2020)

Speaking as a typical VI-C user, I signed up for this thread to hear about brass, not woodwinds!


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Speaking as a typical VI-C user, I signed up for this thread to hear about brass, not woodwinds!


you mean sampled brass, not real woodwinds!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 5, 2020)

kmaster said:


> you mean sampled brass, not real woodwinds!


If you guys don't stop talking about woodwinds, I'm gonna bare my 'clarinet'.


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

Melodic Horn Shootout Reveal and Thoughts:

First a couple of disclaimers.





Disclaimer 1.





Didn't spend hardly any time programming any of these. I played it in and rode the modwheel at the same time and spent a few minutes adjusting cc1. The next day when I added 2 more I did a little more tweaking. If I was doing it for real, no way would I have used just one patch to pull of this line. It lacks variety and also tends to be too static. I just wanted to see how the slur patches worked across different libraries.

Disclaimer 2





Some of these libraries I just pulled up off the hard drive for the first time. I will tell you which ones as I reveal my thoughts.

Disclaimer 3





Any library would struggle with this line. It would take a lot of really note to note programming to make it come off convincingly to all. I didn't do that here.





Disclaimer 4





I rarely proof read 

Okay, here we go.





#1. Hollywood Brass: Horns a6





By far the most lively of the bunch. Lots of personality in these samples. Seems to be the most universally liked of the bunch though a few hated it. Imo, HB wasn't made to excel at this dynamic but it can do it with a bit of work. The main problem being that the FF “buzz” layer is stretched so far down in a effort to make the transition smoother that it makes using the patch below mf somewhat of a challenge. I hope in HOOPUS that they address this or at least have a patch that doesn't have that FF layer in it.

#2. JXLB Horns a4





Loved it. Easy as pie. No fuss no muss patch. Not a lot of expression though. The samples lack a bit of human warmth to them. The extra dynamic layers though made the patch very playable and I could ride that modwheel with little fear of hitting the top “buzz” layer and when I did it blended well. Very modern programming.

The “lack of bass” comment might be because I'm using the JXL/Alan M. mixes and I'm sure they have been eq'd to leave room down below for the lower brass. I tend to like it though as it will lead to a better mix overall.

#3. BBSCO Horns a4

Love it. I don't hear the lack of focus but I'm using only core and I'm sure that when I get pro it will be more clear. Didn't like the transitions as much. Slow as molasses and no way to trim them up or even adjust the volume of them. What you see is what you get with very little way of doing anything to the patch. The lack of dynamic layers though actually plays to its advantage. No top Buzz kill layer. And fairly smooth patch to play. Love the tone a lot. I don't hear much of the critique though I do think these horns would work better with other instruments playing.


#4. Century brass horns a6





I know that if I spent more time with it it could be better. I have never used that patch before as Cent. Brass is a new purchase for me. I like the ability to control the legato volume and speed. It makes a big difference and the trick was to make a balance between release levels, legato speed and legato volume. But, finding that balance was tricky and after a while fruitless for this purpose. Tone is great though and the patch has A LOT of personality which could be good. Dynamic range is great on these instruments. The mic positions give this library a lot of depth and I can tell the hall was huge or maybe they fudged it with IR's or something but I can't wait to dive in to this library more. So glad I bought it.

#5. Caspian a6.





The most playable, but clearly not intended for this purpose. I mainly use Caspian because it has a lot of zip to the patch. It can move around and generally sounds great in an epic soaring loud melody. It only goes down to about what I would consider just below mf though so it just wasn't made for musically delicate stuff. I had the modwheel all the way down and it was still too aggressive. But, it is a fun patch to play and that bite at the release is great for ripping through really powerful line, not so great for delicate releases and I couldn't find a way to turn it off. Maybe there is but I couldn't find it fast.





#6. Sonore Brass

Man, I really loved it can't believe people didn't like it as much. I think the “too dark” comment is because I had just downloaded it for the purpose of this shootout and honestly was fiddling around with mic positions and eq settings and never fully got it. The demo they have on the site of this piece is what convinced me. I'm sure that if I spent more time learning it it would yield even better results but it is a really musical patch, dark sure, but they have a John Williams “bright” patch that might be better. Lots of flavor in this patch and the Mikes at Cinesamples really did a good job imo. Looking forward to learning it better.

#7. A Special blend of horns a2 from Waverunner, Century Brass and HB.

This one was potentially my favorite and here's why. Personally until now I've never had enough brass libraries to be able to combine a2 patches to make a section. I want to explore that option more. I liked having a bit more control of the “players”. In this example there's one that is relatively expressive and the other 2 not so much. It lead to having more musicality and control of the tone. Also more realistic as the lead players were more expressive than the section players.



Where I failed is that I used legato patches exclusively. This lead to WAY too many transitions firing off and was distracting as all hell could get out. I do want to explore this further but in the future I will try and use just one patch that has legato and the rest non slur patches and also vary the articulations more patch to patch. This imo has a lot of potential and had me looking at Berlin Brass or Audio Bro for the more control over each player.


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## Batrawi (Oct 5, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Speaking as a typical VI-C user, I signed up for this thread to hear about brass, not woodwinds!


well vi-control is typically about discussing woodwinds in a brass thread


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

sinkd said:


> Not sure if I've heard this library yet:


I like it. What is it?


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Melodic Horn Shootout Reveal and Thoughts:
> 
> First a couple of disclaimers.
> 
> ...


Thanks @José Herring! I correctly guessed #1 (very distinctive tone if you know it) and #6 (best room-sound of the bunch and the occasional ultra-low hum are the dead SONY giveaways for me*). Would not have guessed #7 was a special blend, but I thought it was mostly successful (except for a few stray legato transitions, which would not be an issue in an "actual" mockup). @NoamL's CSB was also very very good in this.

I suspect/wonder if you'd used a different HWB 6FH legato patch, the "burpiness" would be mitigated/non-existent? That seems more a remnant of the old-school EW legato scripting than anything.

Anyways, great job José and please do not hesitate to do more public comparisons!!

---

* I do work for Cinesamples, so I'm glad I thought so highly of this version!


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## Beans (Oct 5, 2020)

Ah, dang. I've been looking at Century, JXL, and Cinesamples as of late for a brass boost (as a new toy to complement EWHO, CSB, BBCSO, and Infinite). This doesn't help. 

As per existing research, each one offers something that I would enjoy having. Will I decide based on price? Based on how much storage it will eat? Will I ever realize that I should instead focus on building up my Woodwinds, Percussion, and Solo Strings?


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## NoamL (Oct 5, 2020)

Is that HWB Diamond for #1 (like, the multiple mic version)? And Horns a6 Legato right?


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## Batrawi (Oct 5, 2020)

I did not at all expect that the legato I liked the most would be from spitfire!!! maybe their legato scripting has improved in their player vs kontakt


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## doctoremmet (Oct 5, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Speaking as a typical VI-C user, I signed up for this thread to hear about brass, not woodwinds!


Sorry! I was the culprit here. 
Btw: are Vandoren B40 mouthpieces any good? (sorry!!!)


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## Frederick (Oct 5, 2020)

Thank you for the comparison Jose! Also the suspense in the thread was well built!

I have four of the libs you used (Hollywood Brass, BBCSO, Century Brass and CineSamples Sonore), but didn't recognize a single one of them. Oi! This only proves I don't know yet what I've got. Bit of a bummer that I don't own the one that sounded best to me (JXLB).


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## WhiteNoiz (Oct 5, 2020)

Interesting, my favorite (just listened one time, didn't dissect them) was 1, followed by 4. 7 also was kinda satisfying and _maybe_ 6. Good thing as HWB is my favorite overall (sans the ff layer thingy) and was eyeing the Century some time ago due to its tone (I specifically recall liking the Tuba watching the walkthrough when it had come out). They stuck out the most even when not knowing what it was. Nice to have that confirmed at least.

Probably throw in some KH, IB + Hein for more colors and playability. Seems like a good concoction.


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Sorry! I was the culprit here.
> Btw: are Vandoren B40 mouthpieces any good? (sorry!!!)


The best mass produced mouthpiece you can buy. I meant to say Vandoren and not Leblanc in my earlier post. I'll fix that. Any better and you have to go to specialty mouth pieces which need to be individually auditioned.

Get the medium bevel. 

Oh, and buy it from Paris. Little hint, then tend to ship the crap and keep the good stuff in France. So get it direct from the factory. Reeds and everything.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> The best mass produced mouthpiece you can buy. I meant to say Vandoren and not Leblanc in my earlier post. I'll fix that. Any better and you have to go to specialty mouth pieces which need to be individually auditioned.
> 
> Get the medium bevel.
> 
> Oh, and buy it from Paris. Little hint, then tend to ship the crap and keep the good stuff in France. So get it direct from the factory. Reeds and everything.


Awesome advice! I went to the Dutch version of Craig’s List to sort of see what’s out there. A lady offers hers for €350 including said mouthpiece. She says she’s hardly ever played it and includes a photo of the original invoice from... 1997! I guess that one is a pass? Anyway.... not to derail this thread any further... I’ll head over to the Paris website! And thanks again, means a lot!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Oct 5, 2020)

Glad you ended up getting Sonore and liking it! It sounds majestic and rich. Would say Hollywood Brass is the clear winner given the responses with maybe BBCSO as 2nd place (not bad for a library that's much cheaper than some of the others and isn't meant to be a detailed sampling of a single section). I personally liked #1, #6, and #2 JXL (and luckily I own them all so no GAS here).


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Glad you ended up getting Sonore and liking it! It sounds majestic and rich. Would say Hollywood Brass is the clear winner given the responses with maybe BBCSO as 2nd place (not bad for a library that's much cheaper than some of the others and isn't meant to be a detailed sampling of a single section). I personally liked #1, #6, and #2 JXL (and luckily I own them all so no GAS here).


HB may be the clear winner because I've been using HB for 10 years. I just recently got Diamond but it's nearly the same as Gold which I used like foreva'. So I just know that patch like the back of my hand.

I LOVE BBCSO. It has the most classical sound to me. I don't care what anybody says. It's clearly tops imo.



NoamL said:


> Is that HWB Diamond for #1 (like, the multiple mic version)? And Horns a6 Legato right?


Yes. I used the main mics and the surround mics. I tried to use the vintage mics and that got rid of a lot of the "buzz" sound but at the expense of any and all high end. So in the end, I wanted to be fair and used the same mics as best I could for each library except for BBCSO which I only have the Core mix.


WhiteNoiz said:


> Interesting, my favorite (just listened one time, didn't dissect them) was 1, followed by 4. 7 also was kinda satisfying and _maybe_ 6. Good thing as HWB is my favorite overall (sans the ff layer thingy) and was eyeing the Century some time ago due to its tone (I specifically recall liking the Tuba watching the walkthrough when it had come out). They stuck out the most even when not knowing what it was. Nice to have that confirmed at least.
> 
> Probably throw in some KH, IB + Hein for more colors and playability. Seems like a good concoction.


It's never ending for me. I don't have Century Tuba because I got the Ensemble patches on sale recently but I'm missing my Tuba! Luckily for me, EWQLSO, HB, BBCSO have really excellent Tubas each in their own way. But for me, who loves Tuba with a passion, I need MORE!


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## doctoremmet (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> HB may be the clear winner because I've been using HB for 10 years. I just recently got Diamond but it's nearly the same as Gold which I used like foreva'. So I just know that patch like the back of my hand.
> 
> I LOVE BBCSO. It has the most classical sound to me. I don't care what anybody says. It's clearly tops imo.
> 
> ...


Ross from Waverunner Audio is doing a tuba. As he is doing his charity sale at the moment, he will be releasing new instruments every week for like £10. I have a hunch he will release the tuba in the coming weeks... (for a sale price)


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## sinkd (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> I like it. What is it?


Audiobro


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

sinkd said:


> Audiobro



Hmmmmmm......GAS......


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## sinkd (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Hmmmmmm......GAS......


It is a really great and flexible library. The legatos have three different articulation "attitudes" plus an unbelievable precise detune option which I dosed in there just a wee bit. Not to mention a"sizzle" control, vibrato crossfades and automatic divisi/tutti. There is also a low "repetition" key which you can use to play fast repeats, alternating right and left hands.

Totally replaced HB in my template.


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## Beans (Oct 5, 2020)

Interesting, we don't see much Audiobro here, much less Modern Scoring Brass. I wonder why.

EDIT: Guy Rowland template video:


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## ALittleNightMusic (Oct 5, 2020)

Beans said:


> Interesting, we don't see much Audiobro here, much less Modern Scoring Brass. I wonder why.



Yes it's true. Not much discussion about MSB though if you search around it seems when it was released, folks were by and large disappointed with it, though it seems to require a different level of attention than some other libraries when it comes to programming and bringing out its best.


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## sinkd (Oct 5, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yes it's true. Not much discussion about MSB though if you search around it seems when it was released, folks were by and large disappointed with it, though it seems to require a different level of attention than some other libraries when it comes to programming and bringing out its best.


With great flexibility comes great responsibility.

I should add that is not without its performance issues. The tempo sync in Kontakt glitches playback when I draw a tempo change curve (in DP), for example. So external has to be off. It is by far the most processor intensive instance per instrument in my VEPro template, but you can use the pre-made mic mixes (which is what I think Guy M. does) to lighten the load.


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## I like music (Oct 5, 2020)

Audiobro for me was a case of bad marketing/management (only as far as this forum goes)

Perhaps harsh to say "bad" but I think the developers going quiet and a lack of demos was a problem. Probably a lack of demos hurt the first impressions it made, more than anything else.

Sounded decent here...


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

I like music said:


> Audiobro for me was a case of bad marketing/management (only as far as this forum goes)
> 
> Perhaps harsh to say "bad" but I think the developers going quiet and a lack of demos was a problem. Probably a lack of demos hurt the first impressions it made, more than anything else.
> 
> Sounded decent here...


That and IIRC it came out right as CSB did...


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## I like music (Oct 5, 2020)

kmaster said:


> That and IIRC it came out right as CSB did...


Oh crap, yes you're right. I bought csb and I. Imagine a lot of others did too. Must have taken the wind out of that sail a bit...


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## Beans (Oct 5, 2020)

Only two audio demos on the Audiobro web site. Not something Audiobro usually focuses much on, anyway. With that said, the trumpets seem to rip.

I'm a fan of Genesis Children's Choir (maybe even preferring it over Arva), so I'm wondering if I have a new contender for my Brass GAS based on prior satisfaction with the developer.


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## Hendrixon (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> I will do a reveal with thoughts tonight.
> 
> Sections stagger breathing what is important is the continuity of the line and not breath marks. If it were solo it would be different.
> 
> ...



Ok before I'll keep reading I'll just say that #1 sounds to me like HWB
(will catch you in a few minutes from page 2)


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## I like music (Oct 5, 2020)

Beans said:


> Only two audio demos on the Audiobro web site. Not something Audiobro usually focuses much on, anyway. With that said, the trumpets seem to rip.
> 
> I'm a fan of Genesis Children's Choir (maybe even preferring it over Arva), so I'm wondering if I have a new contender for my Brass GAS based on prior satisfaction with the developer.


I've never written any music for kids choir but you know what? I make sure to play lots of lovely chords with Genesis. Amazing library.


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Ok before I'll keep reading I'll just say that #1 sounds to me like HWB
> (will catch you in a few minutes from page 2)


You are correct. The answers are on page 3 or 4 or maybe 5....ah, just keep reading.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> You are correct. The answers are on page 3 or 4 or maybe 5....ah, just keep reading.


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/melodic-horn-shootout.99265/post-4654243


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## Hendrixon (Oct 5, 2020)

Made it to page 6 lol
I just came from outside (visit to a hospital) so wasn't critically listening.
The #1 horns sounded fat and round, first thought was cinebrass (just like few other here. very interesting!) but wasn't sure, kept lightening (glossing over really). I remember #2 sounded nice but kinda thin especially compared to #1. #3 was drenched in verb and I lost focus from here.
Honestly they all sounded like horns to me

Anyway, went back to #1 again and something caught my ear!
One of the notes has this chorus'ish phase'ish undertone to it, like one of the players was a bit off?
Well last night I was playing with my new shiny HB and remembered that note, I was like "hmmm, ah well nothing is perfect, in a mix it won't be heard" and moved along.

As you said Jose, this library wasn't meant to do this, and sure thing my playing with it so far didn't involve pedaling on the lowest dynamic layer. its amazing that it made several here to think it was cinebrass


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Made it to page 6 lol
> I just came from outside (visit to a hospital) so wasn't critically listening.
> The #1 horns sounded fat and round, first thought was cinebrass (just like few other here. very interesting!) but wasn't sure, kept lightening (glossing over really). I remember #2 sounded nice but kinda thin especially compared to #1. #3 was drenched in verb and I lost focus from here.
> Honestly they all sounded like horns to me
> ...


Yes, one of the players on that high "D"as we use to say "biffed" the note. It cracked and he couldn't sustain it. I think that if it was in a louder dynamic it WOULD add to the realism. At this dynamic is clear that it was over looked because who would use the mp layer anyway 

It's funny #3 had the least reverb of all of them. The room is wet and I only have BBCSO core so I think that had A LOT to do with it. 

#2 is probably due to the mix and also the fact that it is quite noticeably an a4 patch. But, I wonder if some of the other mics might give it more body. Personally JXLB was one of my favorites to program and just played the part nicely with No additional tweeking.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Yes, one of the players on that high "D"as we use to say "biffed" the note. It cracked and he couldn't sustain it. I think that if it was in a louder dynamic it WOULD add to the realism. At this dynamic is clear that it was over looked because who would use the mp layer anyway
> 
> It's funny #3 had the least reverb of all of them. The room is wet and I only have BBCSO core so I think that had A LOT to do with it.
> 
> #2 is probably due to the mix and also the fact that it is quite noticeably an a4 patch. But, I wonder if some of the other mics might give it more body. Personally JXLB was one of my favorites to program and just played the part nicely with No additional tweeking.


We always suggest making your own mixes but it's definitely worth mentioning that they a 6 patch from jxl has more body


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> We always suggest making your own mixes but it's definitely worth mentioning that they a 6 patch from jxl has more body


Yeah, I was so impressed with the a4 patch that even though I hadn't initially planned it, the a6 patch made it to my list.


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## Hendrixon (Oct 5, 2020)

José Herring said:


> At this dynamic is clear that it was over looked because who would use the mp layer anyway



Bingo  
Like I'm sure Jasper would never imagine tweaking Angry Brass so ppl will us it to mock up the schumann concert for 4 horns


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## Kevperry777 (Oct 5, 2020)

This ain’t a bad demo for modern scoring brass:


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## Hendrixon (Oct 5, 2020)

So this is MSB? never really heard it before.
Maybe its the mix... but to me the brass here has no weight, the trumpets really sound thin, like they have a steep high pass at 400hz.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 5, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> So this is MSB? never really heard it before.
> Maybe its the mix... but to me the brass here has no weight, the trumpets really sound thin, like they have a steep high pass at 400hz.


this is my issue with it

center recorded(like century brass) and not enough body in the room. Its not as bad as sample modeling to work with, but I'd be putting a lot of work into it in order to get it to sit right

on the flip side, with a decent church IR it can be a great replacement for SSB in SSO


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## Dave Connor (Oct 5, 2020)

The HB patch doesn’t indicate which of the three they offer: Solo, A2, A6. It might be helpful to edit the post so people can tell right off. (I thought HB and BBC stood out as well.)


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## NoamL (Oct 5, 2020)

After listening to all the examples again with your post-reveal comments @José Herring ... I think this fun exercise re-affirms the idea of using the most _musical_ library for the task regardless of any sampling problems...

it is one thing to record 6 horns playing a note quietly, it is another thing to have the musicians constantly focus on the idea of "what sort of music would a film composer be writing if he was asking 6 horns to play in unison, legato, at mezzopiano." and put that feeling into their playing.

Somehow, that extra bit of musician magic (at least, at this dynamic) comes forward clearest in the Hollywood Brass version... with Sonore and CSB as runner ups... at least IMO


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## NYC Composer (Oct 6, 2020)

Very interesting overall.

Taking stock, I have:

1. HB Gold
2. EWQLSO Platinum
3. SampleModeling brass
4. Waverunner 2 FR HNS
5. Majestic Horn 
5. Adventure Brass

and I STILL can’t get a decent Horn sound.



(Ok, I’m lying. Actually, I can.)


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## sinkd (Oct 6, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> this is my issue with it
> 
> center recorded(like century brass) and not enough body in the room. Its not as bad as sample modeling to work with, but I'd be putting a lot of work into it in order to get it to sit right
> 
> on the flip side, with a decent church IR it can be a great replacement for SSB in SSO


I find I need a little compression to get MSB to sit right with other libraries. First of all is just a volume balance issue.


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## José Herring (Oct 6, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> The HB patch doesn’t indicate which of the three they offer: Solo, A2, A6. It might be helpful to edit the post so people can tell right off. (I thought HB and BBC stood out as well.)


Corrected.


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## Kent (Oct 8, 2020)

I was messing around with Infinite Brass tonight, experimenting with removing the tail of the built-in convos and replacing with Seventh Heaven.

This is the Mozarteum, tail diminished, + 7H, 6 horns played via one MIDI track. Didn't spend too much time tweaking the MIDI, as you can tell (so don't judge the abilities of this library from this demo!)...I was more focused on the spatialization 

I'm not sure this mix option is for me, to be honest—I think I like more "close" in my perspective—but I thought it might be an interesting alternative to some of the other options in this thread.


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## José Herring (Oct 8, 2020)

kmaster said:


> I was messing around with Infinite Brass tonight, experimenting with removing the tail of the built-in convos and replacing with Seventh Heaven.
> 
> This is the Mozarteum, tail diminished, + 7H, 6 horns played via one MIDI track. Didn't spend too much time tweaking the MIDI, as you can tell (so don't judge the abilities of this library from this demo!)...I was more focused on the spatialization
> 
> I'm not sure this mix option is for me, to be honest—I think I like more "close" in my perspective—but I thought it might be an interesting alternative to some of the other options in this thread.


It has some good moments. Still not fully convinced of the sound yet but that's just me. 

I am curious about the technology behind it. Seems like half way between sampling and physical modeling. Is it a case where they captured the attack with sampling then switch over to physical modeling for the shape of the sustain?


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## Kent (Oct 9, 2020)

José Herring said:


> It has some good moments. Still not fully convinced of the sound yet but that's just me.
> 
> I am curious about the technology behind it. Seems like half way between sampling and physical modeling. Is it a case where they captured the attack with sampling then switch over to physical modeling for the shape of the sustain?


You know, I'm not sure. I think it might actually be the opposite? Very clever scripting going on there.

Here's another demo—same MIDI, now with a different 'Room' (Bersa, the 'Scoring Stage' setting), which itself is not quite default, and some tweaked humanizing/performance settings.

I like this tone a lot more...I think I'll use it as the foundation of my IB setup sound.

What I'm missing, despite some mild EQ, is the "air"/"brightness" of, say, CB or SSB. I think that's where traditional sampling still beats any sort of modeled or half-modeled instrument. However, I can see this fitting in a mix very well.


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## Hendrixon (Oct 9, 2020)

Do IB use the same technique as Sample Modeling, meaning recording in an anechoic room?


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## Kent (Oct 9, 2020)

Is anybody able to do this convincingly on SSB/BML horns a6? I tried but it’s just not clear enough no matter what mics I mix and how. In other words, on this cue, IB was crisper/more focused than SSB...which I feel should not be the case. It’s probably just me.

(I do think that the a2s are the sweet spot in that library...)

::edit:: I also find it odd that the highest available note in the SSB a6 patch is that high D. You’d think there would be a bit more wiggle room!


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## Kent (Oct 10, 2020)

Well, @aaronventure just released Infinite Brass 1.5, and as I couldn't sleep I mocked this up again. barely any tweaks, mostly just played in live, then "copy-paste" and "humanize" across the other 5 horns in Logic.

...Amazing. You can definitely hear the legato improvements and the refined spatialization. (I think the tone has somehow also improved somewhat, but I could just be imagining things...it seems more "focused" to me somehow though).

In any case, I <3 this.


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## Batrawi (Oct 11, 2020)

Just a very quick take here (not the full melody). I'll reveal later what I've used here in case you want to make some guesses first..


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## José Herring (Oct 11, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> Just a very quick take here (not the full melody). I'll reveal later what I've used here in case you want to make some guesses first..


Interesting. Very nice tone. 

What are these horns?


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## José Herring (Oct 11, 2020)

kmaster said:


> Well, @aaronventure just released Infinite Brass 1.5, and as I couldn't sleep I mocked this up again. barely any tweaks, mostly just played in live, then "copy-paste" and "humanize" across the other 5 horns in Logic.
> 
> ...Amazing. You can definitely hear the legato improvements and the refined spatialization. (I think the tone has somehow also improved somewhat, but I could just be imagining things...it seems more "focused" to me somehow though).
> 
> In any case, I <3 this.


Has some good moments again. I just find the tone too dark and also it's too smooth.


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## Batrawi (Oct 11, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Interesting. Very nice tone.
> 
> What are these horns?


that's 5 instances of century horn with the transposition trick & slightly panned to sit beside each other. the 3 sitting in the middle are with mix mic A (for a focused sound) and the 2 sitting on the sides are with mix mic B (for a wider sound)


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## José Herring (Oct 11, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> that's 5 instances of century horn with the transposition trick & slightly panned to sit beside each other. the 3 sitting in the middle are with mix mic A (for a focused sound) and the 2 sitting on the sides are with mix mic B (for a wider sound)


Nice!

Btw, what do you think of Century solo trumpet? Trying to use it in a piece but not getting the hand of it so had to switch to my standby Sample Modeling. The demos of Century trumpet sound amazing though. So may be I just need to learn it better.


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## Batrawi (Oct 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Nice!
> 
> Btw, what do you think of Century solo trumpet? Trying to use it in a piece but not getting the hand of it so had to switch to my standby Sample Modeling. The demos of Century trumpet sound amazing though. So may be I just need to learn it better.


I like the century trumpet. it has the warmth and smooth legato that you'd expect from the century instruments, but I'd say it is incomparable to the SM trumpet... they literally NAILED this one.


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> I like the century trumpet. it has the warmth and smooth legato that you'd expect from the century instruments, but I'd say it is incomparable to the SM trumpet... they literally NAILED this one.



When I hear the SM trumpet used well (I don't have it, but have heard some excellent mockups) especially in the lower dynamics, I find myself thinking that it might just be the single best virtual instrument ever invented. Also heard horrendous stuff done with it, in which case I start questioning reality.


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## CT (Oct 12, 2020)

I like music said:


> When I hear the SM trumpet used well (I don't have it, but have heard some excellent mockups) especially in the lower dynamics, I find myself thinking that it might just be the single best virtual instrument ever invented. Also heard horrendous stuff done with it, in which case I start questioning reality.



The horn, too, can be absolutely beautiful and expressive. It's been the voice of a number of pieces I really love. It can also sound like an overweight tenor sax.


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike T said:


> The horn, too, can be absolutely beautiful and expressive. It's been the voice of a number of pieces I really love. It can also sound like an overweight tenor sax.



I would sorely love to try them all for a day, because I've heard examples of both extremes that you've described. Just not in a position nowadays, unlike a few years ago, when I could buy shit because I was curious about it. I wondered if someone might mock this line up with them, in this thread. Unless they already have and I missed it.


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## CT (Oct 12, 2020)

I'd like to hear it too. One on its own I know would sound nice, but the stacked ensembles start to fall apart from what I've heard.


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 12, 2020)

I couldn't resist... Here's my quick attempt at the first bars. Just played it in once and didn't edit the notes, only moved some of the CCs around. So excuse all the mistakes. The second playthrough is just with the dynamics raised a tiny amount.


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I couldn't resist... Here's my quick attempt at the first bars. Just played it in once and didn't edit the notes, only moved some of the CCs around. So excuse all the mistakes. The second playthrough is just with the dynamics raised a tiny amount.



See, I really like this! Unfortunately I am listening out of laptop speakers in a nice echoey room but the thing that does stand out is how smooth the expression is. Transitions also are unobtrusive. I can't comment on if it sounds like an ensemble, but it seems like it'd fool enough people that it matters not. I think I can hear an ensemble sitting in one place, but I know what happens. I need to go listen to some truly sampled versions again just to remind myself of what they sound like. That's the problem with growing up not having _done_ music all your life. From day to day, your internal view of what instruments sound like, changes.

Thank you for putting this together so quickly. On balance, it makes me want to buy it and try some more shit out with it.


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## CT (Oct 12, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I couldn't resist... Here's my quick attempt at the first bars. Just played it in once and didn't edit the notes, only moved some of the CCs around. So excuse all the mistakes. The second playthrough is just with the dynamics raised a tiny amount.



Yeah, I think this is really nice!


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

See I'm super happy with my Infinite Brass. Like REALLY happy. But in the transitions of SM trumpets and horns, I feel like there's this little nuance where you can hear a player shaping the notes. In that department, they've done something I really like.

Also, just a public service reminder: how good is this theme?

Now we just need someone to do the same with The Force theme :D


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## CT (Oct 12, 2020)

This was one of my "childhood themes." I'm now desperately tempted to just get the SM brass... but I know if I can't get along with it I'll be highly miffed... and about 350 bucks poorer.


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 12, 2020)

I like music said:


> See, I really like this! Unfortunately I am listening out of laptop speakers in a nice echoey room but the thing that does stand out is how smooth the expression is. Transitions also are unobtrusive. I can't comment on if it sounds like an ensemble, but it seems like it'd fool enough people that it matters not. I think I can hear an ensemble sitting in one place, but I know what happens. I need to go listen to some truly sampled versions again just to remind myself of what they sound like. That's the problem with growing up not having _done_ music all your life. From day to day, your internal view of what instruments sound like, changes.
> 
> Thank you for putting this together so quickly. On balance, it makes me want to buy it and try some more shit out with it.



I actually made these a few days ago but wasn't sure if I wanted to post it or not because they were so rushed. Of course, they are by no means perfect, both playing-wise and mixing-wise, but I would say they are very "musical" and pleasant to listen to either way. And compared to the other examples, these have the most life and musicality to them if you ask me.

I agree though, they do not really sound like a proper ensemble at all times, they are a bit too perfect and don't have the phaseiness that a recorded ensemble has. One might be able to fake that somewhat by detuning the horns away from each other.

Also worth noting, there are only four horns in this example, not six.


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I actually made these a few days ago but wasn't sure if I wanted to post it or not because they were so rushed. Of course, they are by no means perfect, both playing-wise and mixing-wise, but I would say they are very "musical" and pleasant to listen to either way. And compared to the other examples, these have the most life and musicality to them if you ask me.
> 
> I agree though, they do not really sound like a proper ensemble at all times, they are a bit too perfect and don't have the phaseiness that a recorded ensemble has. One might be able to fake that somewhat by detuning the horns away from each other.
> 
> Also worth noting, there are only four horns in this example, not six.



Agreed. Actually, it turns out that when all is said and done, I liked this example the most because there were no janky-sticking-out-bits and it was very musical. Do you mind if I ask a favour please? Absolutely no rush at all, can be in 2025 or not at all, but is it possible to post a solo horn version of this? No problem if not!


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 12, 2020)

I like music said:


> Agreed. Actually, it turns out that when all is said and done, I liked this example the most because there were no janky-sticking-out-bits and it was very musical. Do you mind if I ask a favour please? Absolutely no rush at all, can be in 2025 or not at all, but is it possible to post a solo horn version of this? No problem if not!



No problem at all since I believe we actually saved the project. It might take a little while though since the project is not on my workstation.


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> No problem at all since I believe we actually saved the project. It might take a little while though since the project is not on my workstation.



Thank you. No rush at all, and thanks for posting the other example.


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I actually made these a few days ago but wasn't sure if I wanted to post it or not because they were so rushed. Of course, they are by no means perfect, both playing-wise and mixing-wise, but I would say they are very "musical" and pleasant to listen to either way. And compared to the other examples, these have the most life and musicality to them if you ask me.
> 
> I agree though, they do not really sound like a proper ensemble at all times, they are a bit too perfect and don't have the phaseiness that a recorded ensemble has. One might be able to fake that somewhat by detuning the horns away from each other.
> 
> Also worth noting, there are only four horns in this example, not six.


Didn't catch what horns these were. Did I miss it?


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Didn't catch what horns these were. Did I miss it?



Sample Modeling


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## CT (Oct 12, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I actually made these a few days ago but wasn't sure if I wanted to post it or not because they were so rushed. Of course, they are by no means perfect, both playing-wise and mixing-wise, but I would say they are very "musical" and pleasant to listen to either way. And compared to the other examples, these have the most life and musicality to them if you ask me.
> 
> I agree though, they do not really sound like a proper ensemble at all times, they are a bit too perfect and don't have the phaseiness that a recorded ensemble has. One might be able to fake that somewhat by detuning the horns away from each other.
> 
> Also worth noting, there are only four horns in this example, not six.



Whaddya got going on with the reverb etc.? Is that just the onboard stuff?


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Didn't catch what horns these were. Did I miss it?



Didn't actually mention it. I was going to see if anyone could guess but @I like music and @Mike T kind of figured it out right away since they had just been talking about them.

Yes, this is Sample Modeling Horns.


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Whaddya got going on with the reverb etc.? Is that just the onboard stuff?



In this example, I used 2CAudio Precedence and Breeze2. Top-notch reverbs. But I also did one example using ValhallaRoom, which works fine, just needs a bit more time to get it sounding ok.


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> In this example, I used 2CAudio Precedence and Breeze2. Top-notch reverbs. But I also did one example using ValhallaRoom, which works fine, just needs a bit more time to get it sounding ok.


Any EQ used? I know on The Trumpet I have to boost the around 400hz to get it to sit in an orchestral setting.


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Any EQ used? I know on The Trumpet I have to boost the around 400hz to get it to sit in an orchestral setting.



Only very slight. I cut some lows and highs, kept the area around 2kHz untouched.

I might have cut more lows if I were mixing this to sit in an orchestra, but since it's only the horns I wanted something more warm and regal. For this specific example around 400Hz is exactly where the fundamental is on the horns and raising that would have made the horns seem too close and too fat.

Instead of EQing too much I would recommend using the Timbral Shaping tool in the SampleModeling interface/engine.


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## Windbag (Oct 12, 2020)

I like music said:


> [...] Do you mind if I ask a favour please? Absolutely no rush at all, can be in 2025 or not at all, but is it possible to post a solo horn version of this? No problem if not!




Allow me...

Here's lead horn alone, and 3 up in the piece since there was mention of getting SM to sit in orchestra - I find 3 is about useful limit for SM unison ensembles, since the models don't vary quite enough to give the impression of size. Adding more unison instruments seems to come off more like phasing than the impression of size. I actually don't mind that so much, as I've gravitated toward smaller ensemble size, letting single instruments carry lines with no real loss of overall power that I'd complain about


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

Windbag said:


> Allow me...
> 
> Here's lead horn alone, and 3 up in the piece since there was mention of getting SM to sit in orchestra - I find 3 is about useful limit for SM unison ensembles, since the models don't vary quite enough to give the impression of size. Adding more unison instruments seems to come off more like phasing than the impression of size. I actually don't mind that so much, as I've gravitated toward smaller ensemble size, letting single instruments carry lines with no real loss of overall power that I'd complain about



Wow. That's just gorgeous. Whatever humanisation/variation that's going on in that solo example, feels like there's someone pushing breath into it. And the full orchestral example sounds well balanced in terms of placement!

I think I know what I'm going to buy if I get a bonus at work ...

Thanks for doing this.


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Windbag said:


> Allow me...
> 
> Here's lead horn alone, and 3 up in the piece since there was mention of getting SM to sit in orchestra - I find 3 is about useful limit for SM unison ensembles, since the models don't vary quite enough to give the impression of size. Adding more unison instruments seems to come off more like phasing than the impression of size. I actually don't mind that so much, as I've gravitated toward smaller ensemble size, letting single instruments carry lines with no real loss of overall power that I'd complain about


Damn that's near perfect in this context. 

The only thing to criticize is the easy at which SM handles the line. I kind of feel that some of the excitement in this line is created by the players struggling to keep the tone in the lower dynamic especially when it goes up to the high "D" (High "A" for horns).


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Windbag said:


> Allow me...
> 
> Here's lead horn alone, and 3 up in the piece since there was mention of getting SM to sit in orchestra - I find 3 is about useful limit for SM unison ensembles, since the models don't vary quite enough to give the impression of size. Adding more unison instruments seems to come off more like phasing than the impression of size. I actually don't mind that so much, as I've gravitated toward smaller ensemble size, letting single instruments carry lines with no real loss of overall power that I'd complain about


BTW what strings?


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Also a bit of trivia the original sound track was recorded at Paramount Scoring Stage which use to be my favorite scoring stage in LA. It unfortunately got closed down about 10 years ago and the last time I was on the Paramount lot I checked in on the old building and I got a bit sad thinking about all the great music that was recorded there. I think it use to be called Scoring stage "M".


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## CT (Oct 12, 2020)

Huh, it was Paramount? Always thought it was Todd-AO.


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Huh, it was Paramount? Always thought it was Todd-AO.


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## Windbag (Oct 12, 2020)

I like music said:


> [...] Whatever humanisation/variation that's going on in that solo example, feels like there's someone pushing breath into it. [...]



Indeed I _was_ pushing breath into it  TEControl BBC2 ...and I would say you'll kinda miss out on potential for modeled winds without a breath controller of some kind. I had been using a EWI USB with silicone tube in place of the mouthpiece before coming to terms with the fact that I sucked enough at wind fingering and just going the swedish route. It takes some practice, but very worthwhile.




José Herring said:


> BTW what strings?



Strings are LASS with a SWAM cello leading the counter melody. The rest is modeled as well: SM Tuba and SWAM contrabassoon on the bottom, SWAM Flute, Oboe, and WIVI Clarinet (the last of the wallanders to be chased out of my templates) on top. 

And yeah, that pitch wandering is key for unisons; these don't really want to do that despite a "randomize pitch" parameter being maxed for the 2nd and 3rd horns. I've recently started using Roli blocks on these, which has been almost as transformational as breath control, mostly for played-in vibratos and some justified thirds when I can manage it. You can push or pull the pitch (or skew vibrato) fairly naturally so I'll have to tinker with that more for 2nd/3rd unison instruments and see if I can't get closer to that effect.


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## I like music (Oct 12, 2020)

Windbag said:


> Indeed I _was_ pushing breath into it  TEControl BBC2 ...and I would say you'll kinda miss out on potential for modeled winds without a breath controller of some kind. I had been using a EWI USB with silicone tube in place of the mouthpiece before coming to terms with the fact that I sucked enough at wind fingering and just going the swedish route. It takes some practice, but very worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fantastic. So do you tend to mainly utilised a 'modelled' setup for your day to day work? It all glued together nicely for me.


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## Windbag (Oct 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Also a bit of trivia the original sound track was recorded at Paramount Scoring Stage which use to be my favorite scoring stage in LA. It unfortunately got closed down about 10 years ago and the last time I was on the Paramount lot I checked in on the old building and I got a bit sad thinking about all the great music that was recorded there. I think it use to be called Scoring stage "M".



Yeah, I remember hearing that...and something to the effect of "what will happen with the space is anybody's guess" being a pretty frustrating implication about the necessity of doing so.


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## Windbag (Oct 12, 2020)

I like music said:


> Fantastic. So do you tend to mainly utilised a 'modelled' setup for your day to day work? It all glued together nicely for me.



Whenever I can. I wish I could attribute this properly (I heard it...somewhere) but it rings true to me that these models make for something much closer to performing than programming sample sets or arranging for me, especially with the input toy–ools we get to play with these days. And I also really like what the absence of articulation patches or keyswitches does for writing...you just do what comes into your head.

Also I forgot to weigh in on the original question; on first listen I liked the last one (#7?) best, despite whatever transition or note-off samples are kinda sticking out there. The rest of it sounded good enough I'd probably be content letting reverb and other instrumentation mask that.


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## CT (Oct 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


>




Ah man, thanks! I've never seen this video. I love these little glimpses. I just assumed that Jerry in the 90's was pretty much always in Todd-AO. I knew McCarthy's wonderful score for Generations was done at Paramount, but I wouldn't have thought that was the same room as First Contact, going by the sound of those scores. Paramount was bigger than I realized.


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## Knomes (Oct 12, 2020)

Hi, I wanted to contribute to this thread too


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Ah man, thanks! I've never seen this video. I love these little glimpses. I just assumed that Jerry in the 90's was pretty much always in Todd-AO. I knew McCarthy's wonderful score for Generations was done at Paramount, but I wouldn't have thought that was the same room as First Contact, going by the sound of those scores. Paramount was bigger than I realized.


McCarthy and Jay Chattaway during the series used a smaller orchestra and the orchestra faced the control room. You could fit up to about 50 players that way. Now if you had the orchestra facing the west wall, you could fit 70-80 players in there which is what JG and Bruce Broughton use to do for film scores. I wasn't there for Generations so I don't know what McCarthy did for that one. 

McCarthy also recorded one film score in an old studio in Burbank on Pass Ave. I've since forgotten the name of that one. That studio had a horrible sound though. Tight room, low ceilings, yuck. 

I have so many memories of all this stuff. Either playing sessions, or recording my music or crashing big wig sessions and also getting invited to a lot of sessions. It was so different back then.


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2020)

Knomes said:


> Hi, I wanted to contribute to this thread too


It's nice and connected. Smooth. The only thing I don't like is the high end brightness. But, I think with the strings it would blend in and give the whole thing some nice air.


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 13, 2020)

@I like music, I see that you already had someone do a solo version.

Either way here's a render of only the first horn from my example playing exactly the same thing as the four horn example.


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## I like music (Oct 13, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> @I like music, I see that you already had someone do a solo version.
> 
> Either way here's a render of only the first horn from my example playing exactly the same thing as the four horn example.



Thanks a ton. Something about these solo horns from SM feels much more lively than a lot of what I hear. I know that'll feel like an odd statement, given that actually the samples are at their core, quite lifeless, but it seems to respond to input nuance better than I had expected.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 13, 2020)

Samplemodeling is really amazing-sounding stuff. I never liked their 4 horn ensemble before, but this example from @Jonathan Moray has me rethinking...

I think part of my problem is I am still on version 1.03. I guess the timbral shaping and soundstage changes really made some improvements. GAS 

Great example!


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## Zanshin (Oct 13, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Samplemodeling is really amazing-sounding stuff. I never liked their 4 horn ensemble before, but this example from @Jonathan Moray has me rethinking...
> 
> I think part of my problem is I am still on version 1.03. I guess the timbral shaping and soundstage changes really made some improvements. GAS
> 
> Great example!



You have to pay for updates from SM?


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 13, 2020)

Zanshin said:


> You have to pay for updates from SM?



I just inquired about this and there is a 30EUR charge for the upgrade. Not bad considering this is a killer piece of gear.


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## Zanshin (Oct 13, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I just inquired about this and there is a 30EUR charge for the upgrade. Not bad considering this is a killer piece of gear.



Yeah, not as good as free, but reasonable!


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## Knomes (Oct 13, 2020)

José Herring said:


> It's nice and connected. Smooth. The only thing I don't like is the high end brightness. But, I think with the strings it would blend in and give the whole thing some nice air.



I like it too! Maybe someday I could try adding the strings. Should I say what library is it?


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## José Herring (Oct 13, 2020)

Knomes said:


> I like it too! Maybe someday I could try adding the strings. Should I say what library is it?


Yes, I'm curious.


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## Windbag (Oct 13, 2020)

My clips used the 1.03 horns, FYI (I guess it's high time I did the upgrade).

@Zanshin - Kendoka?


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## Knomes (Oct 13, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Yes, I'm curious.



So, it's BBO: Jupiter. Regular Legato patch.
I used the mixer preset SurroundToStereo Classic, nothing else.


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