# Matrix resurrections



## davidson

Boy oh boy did this film miss having Don Davis at the helm. Apart from the odd reference to Davis' brass swells, it didn't sound _matrixy_ at all and the film suffers massively because of it. It makes you realise just what a masterpiece Davis created with the trilogy.


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## Living Fossil

Haven't seen the film, but i've listened to some of the soundtrack, and for the sake of simplicity i will paste here what i've written in another thread about the score:

_I've listened to some parts of the new soundtrack on YT.
And i have to say it's probably the most saddening experience since quite a while.
Reason are the parts where the new score makes allusions to the old one.
The old scores by Don Davies relied heavily on polytonality.
Writing polytonal music requires a certain amount of know how.
Now, in the new soundtracks there are similar motives etc. but all without the harmonic background.
And this sounds so terribly dumb (when compared to the original scores) that it hurts my ears and my brain.
Seriously.
I don't want to know how Davies feels when listening to it...

It's like you're a chief who developed a super complex tasty sauce that perfectly matches the dish.
And then the next day – instead of this sauce – ketchup is poured over the dish and the customers don't realize the difference..._

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way...

(p.s. polytonality always has been a relevant part of my own music and is a stylistic tool that still offers a huge palette of amazing possiblities – even if it's used for well over 100 years – therefore it offends me in an almost personal way if people can't grasp the difference between something so sophisticated as the original score of Matrix and these banal "epic" allusions....) 

Edit:
p.s. i really liked the score from Cloud Atlas from the same composers team, which worked really well in its stylistic scope.


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## arafaratanran

Not a huge loss ... Matrix was one of those films where any sequel (yes, I mean 2 and 3 as well) was pointless from the beginning, anyway. This new film looks like another retro-mania event that basically make up 95% of recent blockbuster cinema: daring something new is financially to risky and that is why they don't even try anything but bringing the dead alive. 

The greatest composers in the world cannot stop that shallowness. What we appreciate about them more than the guys today is mainly different spirit the movies had back than. As great as I find the music of Davis in the original Matrix movie: he would need a great film to write for to make it worth while another time. Otherwise, it is just a re-hash of the old and not worth it - just like those films themselves.


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## Dewdman42

I couldn't even watch it all the way through.


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## Macrawn

The Davis score developed a memorable sound, the bends and the bowed metal sounds. But when you listen to the whole Davis score there are plenty of pretty generic Hollywood style action cues that could go into any movie action scene. But the sounds of that track just define the movie just as much as the movie defined itself. 

I think when you listen to the new score it does follow a lot of the generic type formula cues that the Davis score has and it's competent. I guess the problem is they couldn't just develop a new matrix sound either, nobody wants that so they followed the formula stuff but with a lot less aleatoric sounds giving some tribute to those memorable pieces here and there. 

If it were in another type of action movie it would be fine just not memorable. People would probably be talking about it as a good soundtrack. Not great but good. I think they probably accomplished what was hoped for. A tribute to the original sound without screwing it up. About the same level as the movie I guess. Good but not great like the first one. 

It's funny when I hear people say, the music should just complement what is going on in the movie. This isn't true at all. It needs to enhance it and define it in it's own way. At least the best sound tracks do. Most people play it safe because you can get away with a soundtrack like the one in this new movie and it's fine. But if you miss on doing something really great it's pretty dramatic fail. The best scores give a movie a defining sound that fits. Don Davis did that. The new score preserves that I guess as good as one could expect. 

I think the soundtrack is fine, and the first half of the movie was fine. It just kinda lost me on the 2nd half.


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## chillbot

Living Fossil said:


> It's like you're a chief who developed a super complex tasty sauce that perfectly matches the dish.
> And then the next day – instead of this sauce – ketchup is poured over the dish and the customers don't realize the difference...


Nice description.

Totally agree about the score. I hated it not so much for everything it was but for all that it wasn't. A giant opportunity lost.

Maybe I've become more use to the latest HZ mixes but it almost felt like they mixed the score extra soft even in order to bury it.

I really dislike ever putting down anyone's music and I never do and it doesn't feel good. So let me add, unless we were in the room with the composers and director, none of us know how this score came to be. The composer often gets the blame when the director/producer has slid music around, dropped it in a different scene, even as far as replacing it with some other music. Or, even if it's note-for-note as they wrote, the director had their hands tied in such a way that they had no choice but to write those particular notes.

I will put all the blame in this case on the producers, and add that I am equally as disappointed in the lack of any industrial tracks ala Propellerheads, Rage Against the Machine, Crystal Method, The Prodigy, etc. That mix of industrial with Don Davis was so good, kind of similiar to that Elfman/Prince marriage in Batman.


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## MartinH.

arafaratanran said:


> This new film looks like another retro-mania event that basically make up 95% of recent blockbuster cinema: daring something new is financially to risky and that is why they don't even try anything but bringing the dead alive.


Dead... Someone should remake Evil Dead. Oh wait... they did. Then maybe Dead Alive and the other Peter Jackson classics (I'm kidding of course).




Living Fossil said:


> Reason are the parts where the new score makes allusions to the old one.
> The old scores by Don Davies relied heavily on polytonality.
> Writing polytonal music requires a certain amount of know how.
> Now, in the new soundtracks there are similar motives etc. but all without the harmonic background.
> And this sounds so terribly dumb (when compared to the original scores) that it hurts my ears and my brain.





Living Fossil said:


> therefore it offends me in an almost personal way if people can't grasp the difference between something so sophisticated as the original score of Matrix and these banal "epic" allusions


At the risk of offending you even further, I have to ask, is the first Minute of both soundtracks a good example for what you mean? I'm just a hobbyist with very little theory knowledge, and "polytonal" means nothing to me. But listening to the first minute of the new soundtrack it feels more "chaotic" than "deliberate" as it does in the original. Is this what you're talking about?


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## Living Fossil

MartinH. said:


> At the risk of offending you even further, I have to ask, is the first Minute of both soundtracks a good example for what you mean? I'm just a hobbyist with very little theory knowledge, and "polytonal" means nothing to me.


Polytonality simply means that there are different keys in use at the same time.
(the most common case, when 2 keys are used simultaneously, is also called "Bitonality").
While it's not difficult to use different chords at the same time _per se, _the complexity derives from the fact that you need quite a sensible inner hearing and quite a good craft to control the different tonal regions. 
One aspect is that polytonality usually relies on a very conscious use of different ranges. If everything goes on in the same register with similar colors you will have a dissonant mash. 
The other is that the involved tonal regions interact in a way that usually comes with lots of dissonances. However, the human ear is eager to accept dissonances if they seem plausible.
Therefore, aspects as voice leading etc also are of crucial importance in order to achieve plausibility.
Third: polytonality creates lots of tension. And you need to know how to "manage" the involved tension. Means: you need a strategy how to introduce the tension, but also, how to leave it in a plausible way.

In that other thread, @Pier posted 2 links which give some valuable insights of how these (and many other) aspects are handled in the Matrix score. 
(Besides, polytonality was a big thing in the early 20th century. Composers like Darius Milhaud or Honegger, but also Stravinsky etc. made lots of use of it.
These are the links, as originally posted by @Pier :


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## MartinH.

Living Fossil said:


> Polytonality simply means that there are different keys in use at the same time.
> (the most common case, when 2 keys are used simultaneously, is also called "Bitonality").
> While it's not difficult to use different chords at the same time _per se, _the complexity derives from the fact that you need quite a sensible inner hearing and quite a good craft to control the different tonal regions.
> One aspect is that polytonality usually relies on a very conscious use of different ranges. If everything goes on in the same register with similar colors you will have a dissonant mash.
> The other is that the involved tonal regions interact in a way that usually comes with lots of dissonances. However, the human ear is eager to accept dissonances if they seem plausible.
> Therefore, aspects as voice leading etc also are of crucial importance in order to achieve plausibility.
> Third: polytonality creates lots of tension. And you need to know how to "manage" the involved tension. Means: you need a strategy how to introduce the tension, but also, how to leave it in a plausible way.
> 
> In that other thread, @Pier posted 2 links which give some valuable insights of how these (and many other) aspects are handled in the Matrix score.
> (Besides, polytonality was a big thing in the early 20th century. Composers like Darius Milhaud or Honegger, but also Stravinsky etc. made lots of use of it.
> These are the links, as originally posted by @Pier :



Thanks a lot for the detailed reply/explanation (and also to @Pier for the great video recommendations)! This was very educational - and great timing too, since I was planning to experiment with less tonal writing soon. I already bookmarked a performance of "Harmonielehre" by John Adams to listen to tomorrow. Lots of new things to explore that I wasn't familiar with.


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## blaggins

Dewdman42 said:


> I couldn't even watch it all the way through.


Honestly I couldn't either. Watched about 2/3rds of it last night and I gave up. And it's not like I could have done better but there were some moments when I noticed the music, and not because it was so good... There's one cue that it was really apparently bad to me, when the machines are bringing you know who from who know where for the first time....


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## patrick76

Davis’s original score was iconic and worked perfectly for the film. Considering there was no need for a further sequel and the conspicuous absence of Davis, this film was destined to fail. It’s not the worst thing ever made, but exactly what I expected it to be. 

What would be nice is not another sequel, but a new film made today that is as original and cool as the first Matrix movie!


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## chillbot

patrick76 said:


> What would be nice is not another sequel, but a new film made today that is as original and cool as the first Matrix movie!


I agree with this and would add to it, if we are fantasizing...

My memory might be skewed by age but what I remember about the original Matrix... seeing it in a theater in NYC... is that the _trailer_ didn't give away the whole movie. Like, going into it, I'd seen the trailer but I had NO IDEA what the heck the Matrix was or what the movie was about. That was part of the crazy experience of seeing it for the first time. These days trailers are just mini movies where you don't really need to see the actual movie if you don't want to, you already know what happens.

EDIT: Just rewatched the original 4:3 trailer.. holy moly how trailer formats have changed. It's so different from modern trailer formats. Anyway it's not so much they don't give away the whole movie (cause they kind of do) it was just such a perfect movie for a trailer, all they have to do is start and end with "what is the matrix".


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## MartinH.

chillbot said:


> I agree with this and would add to it, if we are fantasizing...
> 
> My memory might be skewed by age but what I remember about the original Matrix... seeing it in a theater in NYC... is that the _trailer_ didn't give away the whole movie. Like, going into it, I'd seen the trailer but I had NO IDEA what the heck the Matrix was or what the movie was about. That was part of the crazy experience of seeing it for the first time. These days trailers are just mini movies where you don't really need to see the actual movie if you don't want to, you already know what happens.
> 
> EDIT: Just rewatched the original 4:3 trailer.. holy moly how trailer formats have changed. It's so different from modern trailer formats. Anyway it's not so much they don't give away the whole movie (cause they kind of do) it was just such a perfect movie for a trailer, all they have to do is start and end with "what is the matrix".



I remember quite vividly how underwhelmed I was by The Matrix because I had seen too much of the cool stuff beforehand in Trailers. I stopped watching trailers soon after. Almost all memorable movie experiences I had in that time were me going in totally blind. Fight Club, Cube, Dark City*, Event Horizon - imagine how much less interesting any of these are if you have seen a trailer for them. 

*Dark City I watched on regular television and I missed the first couple of minutes, but it still felt like a completely natural entry point for the story. I'm not sure if this a different cut, but years later when I saw the film again I realized that right at the beginning they give away the whole plot premise that to me was a big twist kind of reveal when I watched it, and I must have missed that entire part the first time around. I thought "Why would they do that??? That ruins the whole film!".


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## patrick76

MartinH. said:


> I remember quite vividly how underwhelmed I was by The Matrix because I had seen too much of the cool stuff beforehand in Trailers. I stopped watching trailers soon after. Almost all memorable movie experiences I had in that time were me going in totally blind. Fight Club, Cube, Dark City*, Event Horizon - imagine how much less interesting any of these are if you have seen a trailer for them.
> 
> *Dark City I watched on regular television and I missed the first couple of minutes, but it still felt like a completely natural entry point for the story. I'm not sure if this a different cut, but years later when I saw the film again I realized that right at the beginning they give away the whole plot premise that to me was a big twist kind of reveal when I watched it, and I must have missed that entire part the first time around. I thought "Why would they do that??? That ruins the whole film!".


I was lucky enough to also see Fight Club with no idea what is was before seeing it. Same with The Sixth Sense.


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## Jish

MartinH. said:


> *Dark City I watched on regular television and I missed the first couple of minutes, but it still felt like a completely natural entry point for the story. I'm not sure if this a different cut, but years later when I saw the film again I realized that right at the beginning they give away the whole plot premise that to me was a big twist kind of reveal when I watched it, and I must have missed that entire part the first time around. I thought "Why would they do that??? That ruins the whole film!".


I see the point about the first trailer to _The Matrix _and it certainly to me would have been an even greater surprise had the studio decided to go the more (at the time) Spielberg route of 'less is more' regarding the trailer's. Thankfully, the damn film had such a richness to it's world and overall execution that it was still a massive surprise that rewarded many revisits.

Funny to think back to 'Dark City' around that time as well- a number of critics following the release of the Matrix said they thought the _Dark City_ was still the better film- personally, I found that to be a kind of...silly notion and only more so today as time goes on. Nothing against 'City, but The Matrix was like a cultural phenomenon and that first film still holds up damn well even today (and, even having a distaste for the word- _zeitgeis_t just comes to mind-it felt very much so of it's time, and yet transcendent of it's time). The sequels were a cash-grab by studio and basically unneeded, and I kind of question how much the Wachowski's even wanted to do those apart from obvious financial incentive. Happy the Spidey fans just got a film they truly love, but have a nagging suspicion that the word 'misunderstood' and _Resurrections _are to be seemingly bound by destiny (or perhaps, The Architect) whether it actually is a totally misuderstood film, or simply just not a very good one.


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## Tice

Saw it, loved the film, but any excuse to have John Adams-style music in a film should be taken with both hands imho 
For real though, I don't mind a franchise changing. Heck, I've come to prefer it. I absolutely love what Don Davis did, one of my favourite scores of all time. But it's not the only shape a Matrix film can take. And I'm glad they took as many 'left turns' as they needed to to reclaim it.


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## chillbot

It's crazy but I just watched the trailer for Dark City and feel like I'd never even heard of this movie before. Is it good? How did I not know about it?

Of course as a sample nerd the first thing I think of is this:


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## Pier

chillbot said:


> My memory might be skewed by age but what I remember about the original Matrix... seeing it in a theater in NYC... is that the _trailer_ didn't give away the whole movie. Like, going into it, I'd seen the trailer but I had NO IDEA what the heck the Matrix was or what the movie was about. That was part of the crazy experience of seeing it for the first time. These days trailers are just mini movies where you don't really need to see the actual movie if you don't want to, you already know what happens.


I knew nothing about it, I hadn't even watched the trailer. I went with a group of friends and we just were expecting some cool sci fi movie.

Back then going to the movies was such a different experience. Most of the hype was word of mouth.



Jish said:


> Funny to think back to 'Dark City' around that time as well- a number of critics following the release of the Matrix said they thought the _Dark City_ was still the better film- personally, I found that to be a kind of...silly notion and only more so today as time goes on. Nothing against 'City, but The Matrix was like a cultural phenomenon and that first film still holds up damn well even today (and, even having a distaste for the word- _zeitgeis_t just comes to mind-it felt very much so of it's time, and yet transcendent of it's time).


I think Dark City is generally better from an artistic point of view and there's no denying The Watchowskis copied a lot from it considering it was released a year earlier. See this article comparing both films visually.



Matrix City: A Photographic Comparison of The Matrix and Dark City – ElectroLund



But it makes sense mainstream audiences would connect a lot more with The Matrix. For example, kids and teens loved Neo, an archetypical hero with a pure heart. Dark City was much more nuanced and darker in its writing and definitely intended for mature audiences.

When comparing both movies it needs to be said that Dark City had a fraction of the budget. According to Wikipedia 27M vs 63M.

There were two more movies back then touching on similar themes that I seem to remember were also pretty good. But, again, with very little budget and oriented towards mature audiences.









The Thirteenth Floor - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org













Avalon (2001 film) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## MartinH.

chillbot said:


> I'd seen the trailer but *I had NO IDEA what the heck the Matrix *was or what the movie was about. That was part of the crazy experience of seeing it for the first time.


Now that I think about it I must have been introduced to "the matrix" as a concept much sooner with Shadowrun (pen & paper RPG and series of novels, heavily inspired by Cyberpunk), so not even that was the mindblowing new concept to me that it should have been. 




Jish said:


> Funny to think back to 'Dark City' around that time as well- a number of critics following the release of the Matrix said they thought the _Dark City_ was still the better film- personally, I found that to be a kind of...silly notion and only more so today as time goes on. Nothing against 'City, but The Matrix was like a cultural phenomenon and that first film still holds up damn well even today


At the time I think I'd have agreed Dark City is the better movie. Actually that may have been the way I described the movie to a friend after seeing it. But it's not an action film. 
Today I don't think it is the objectively better movie, but I for sure enjoyed it more than The Matrix at the time. Maybe one day I'll rewatch it, although the experienced of seeing it first without expectations and that spoiler intro can't be replicated. And admittedly the end of the movie wasn't that great.

Also I find most old movies hold up well compared to the crap they put on the big screen today. I re-watched Alien 4 a couple of years ago and thought "Wow, this is still better than a lot of recent movies. They _really _lowered the bar over the years."





chillbot said:


> It's crazy but I just watched the trailer for Dark City and feel like I'd never even heard of this movie before. Is it good? How did I not know about it?


Oh no, you watched a trailer, that ruins half the fun! :(

Was it this one? 
(Only posting this for Chillbot and others who already know Dark City, *no one who hasn't seen the movie yet should watch it*, I'm serious!)


Spoiler








I think it's a pretty bad trailer that sets the wrong tone, reveals way too much but fails to communicate the appeal of the movie. Makes it look way more action heavy than it is too. You need to see this one without any expectations imho.

I googled a bit regarding the intro that I never saw on my first watching and found this (spoiler free)


Seems like the director's cut got rid of the stupid spoilery exposition dump intro. When you watch the movie it starts with a black screen and then space. If there is narration, pause _immediately _and skip ahead about 2 minutes and 10 seconds to a scene of a guy waking up in a bathtub.


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## b_elliott

Living Fossil said:


> Polytonality simply means that there are different keys in use at the same time.
> ...


Damn good explanation which had me digging further. 

When I searched polytonality on YouTube I came up with this record which I recall hearing years ago: Captain Beefheart's _Trout Mask Replica _(1969)_. _

Its first song _Frownland_:


Polytonality -- where? Three guitars play three different key centers simultaneously on top of a 5-against-7 polyrhythm... 'splained here:



For the record: At the time of _Frownland_ (1969) the Beatle's had their hit "_Get Back_", while BS&T were rocking "_Spinning Wheel_".


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## ip20

Living Fossil said:


> In that other thread, @Pier posted 2 links which give some valuable insights of how these (and many other) aspects are handled in the Matrix score.
> (Besides, polytonality was a big thing in the early 20th century. Composers like Darius Milhaud or Honegger, but These are the links, as originally posted by @Pier :




Thanks for sharing it here. Those were incredible analyses.


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## Trash Panda

I quite enjoyed the new Matrix movie as a movie. I never really noticed the music, contrasting to how much the music stuck out (in a good way) in the original trilogy.

I'm really not a fan of this trend of music disappearing into the background completely and rarely, if ever, allowed to be in the forefront of the sonic space. Maybe that's from growing up on Star Wars, Indiana Jones, old videogames, etc. where the music was just as big of a piece of the experience as the action and visuals, not merely a supporting role.

Edit: WTF was with that remake of RATM's "Wake Up" at the end? That was very...not good.


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## Living Fossil

ip20 said:


> Thanks for sharing it here. Those were incredible analyses.


As mentioned, the merit goes to @Pier who shard them originally in the Hive thread!


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## Pier

Trash Panda said:


> Edit: WTF was with that...


Yeah it was atrocious.

Why didn't they just use the original track? It added another layer of lame artificiality to the whole thing.


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## ip20

Living Fossil said:


> As mentioned, the merit goes to @Pier who shard them originally in the Hive thread!


Yes thank you both! @Pier 

I would not have seen these amazing videos otherwise!


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## AdamKmusic

I thought the film was so bad, the score did nothing for me either. There were maybe 1 or two noticeable callbacks to Don Davis score but the rest was just bland generic string ostinatos the early 2010s! I don’t blame the composers though as that’s obviously what Lana Wachowski wanted the score to be!


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## SimonCharlesHanna

chillbot said:


> It's crazy but I just watched the trailer for Dark City and feel like I'd never even heard of this movie before. Is it good? How did I not know about it?
> 
> Of course as a sample nerd the first thing I think of is this:


Dark city is quite good but as others have noted, there is a version which spoils the whole movie from the start. 

It's an odd movie and it wasn't until my 2rd watch that I realised why: The movie is essentially one big third (final) act.


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## Pier

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Dark city is quite good but as others have noted, there is a version which spoils the whole movie from the start.


You're right! I had forgotten the voice over stuff.

@chillbot definitely watch the director's cut not the theatrical one.

The theatrical cut also has like one of the highest editing cuts per minute ratio. It's horrible to watch.

According to IMDB trivia:



> Has one of the shortest Average shot lengths (ASL) of any modern narrative production at 1.8 seconds. This means there is a cut almost every 2 seconds.


Edit:

Here's a PDF comparing Dark City's ASL with some classic movies.



http://cinemetrics.lv/distrib.pdf


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## NoamL

Don Davis, Hugo Weaving, and Yuen Woo-ping were each sorely missed in this movie. There were just too many missing pieces from the engine that made the old movies work. And not a clear idea of what they wanted to do with the 4th movie.


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## Mr Greg G

I just watched Matrix Resurrections and thought it was enjoyable despite all the bad reviews it got. The music was actually good even though not composed in the style of Don Davis. It felt like Matrix cues meeting recent Hans Zimmer scores. I love how the composers played with minor and major scales which resulted in some unpredictable melodic lines.

In comparison, I think the new Ghostbusters was way worse than MR. This one was really uninspired, as if they spat huge amounts of saliva on my childhood and Egon Spengler...


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## jazzman7

When I heard they were filming, then saw that it would be released this Christmas, I immediately thought that sounded awful fast. I hear the CGI is not up to par and (to me) that score sounds a bit on the low budget end in comparison to the original. It all adds up to what looks like a rushed production that cut too many corners


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## rgames

In case anyone missed it, the recording of the full score for the original was released earlier this year and matches the Omni printed score.




Of course you can always just go back to Harmonielehre and read/listen to that score as well


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## KEM

I’ve never seen a Matrix movie before but I decided to check out this score and I gotta say I LOVE it!! I think it’s awesome, maybe that’s because I haven’t heard the original music by Don Davis so I don’t have that comparison to make, but the music in Resurrections is incredible and I’ve been listening to it quite a bit


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## turnerofwheels

Since I love both Harmonielehre and the Matrix, it's interesting that Davis' works as a concert composer goes back to the mid 70s. It's hard to find recordings of his earlier works, here's one released on CD two years before Harmonielehre was finished--_definitely not _american minimalism though--more along the lines of the dissonant ostinato/looping fragment ideas that he maybe alluded Penderecki influence over in the track commentary IIRC. It shows up here in particular toward the end:



One of his earlier titles clearly references Spectralism as well (literally, Timbral Spectra, 1979), a shame there's no way to hear it as the Matrix clearly contains that lineage. I mention this because at best, John Adams accounts for influencing 10% of the score, in particular those repeating horns.

Having this kind of range, experience and background in your musical toolbox and being able to make it accessible is exactly what gave the Matrix its secret special sauce IMO.


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## Pier

turnerofwheels said:


> Harmonielehre


I'm not very educated in orchestral music and had never heard of this. I just listened to it and it's fantastic. At times it does really seem like I'm hearing Davis' The Matrix.

Of course I know Glass from his work on Koyanisqaatsi which led me to discover Roach, but this orchestral minimalism never captured my attention for long. Harmonielehre seems to have just the right amount of minimalism and more common tonal stuff.

Can you recommend other works like Harmonielehre?


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## AdamKmusic

KEM said:


> I’ve never seen a Matrix movie before


You need to change that asap! At least the first film anyways


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## turnerofwheels

Pier said:


> I'm not very educated in orchestral music and had never heard of this. I just listened to it and it's fantastic. At times it does really seem like I'm hearing Davis' The Matrix.
> 
> Of course I know Glass from his work on Koyanisqaatsi which led me to discover Roach, but this orchestral minimalism never captured my attention for long. Harmonielehre seems to have just the right amount of minimalism and more common tonal stuff.
> 
> Can you recommend other works like Harmonielehre?


Different feel but Adams' Common tones in Simple Time (1979) seems to me a clear influence on many a sci fi soundtrack with those shimmery textures.


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## KEM

AdamKmusic said:


> You need to change that asap! At least the first film anyways



Everyone’s been telling me this!! I will absolutely watch it soon, in fact I’ll rent it on Apple TV right now just to make sure I don’t forget


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## chillbot

Living Fossil said:


> It's like you're a chief who developed a super complex tasty sauce that perfectly matches the dish.
> And then the next day – instead of this sauce – ketchup is poured over the dish and the customers don't realize the difference...





KEM said:


> I LOVE it!! I think it’s awesome, maybe that’s because I haven’t heard the original music by Don Davis



Confirmed: KEM likes ketchup.


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## b_elliott

OK this thread has me binge watching a few of these films. 

I saw The Matrix 22 years ago (twice). The only thing I recall was the sfx, not one single note of the soundtrack had the slightest impact on me back then.

Last night I watched Avalon 2001.

The version I saw was 1hr 46min long. 8% of the movie had music, georgeous stuff by Kenji Kawai; the remaining 92% was foley fx or Polish dialog (at least the foot steps and gun fire were in sync). The computer fx are so 1980s -- kinda of a shock to see a 2001 film resorting to those fx. Budget?

The Matrix (1999) within the first 6 minutes the story is more kick-ass action and Trinity (girl hero) is total legit lethal gal. The music so far doesn't strike me as bad, nor is it spectacular. The action, sfx are 100% what the original is about IMHO.

Later tonight I will watch Matrix Resurrection (2021) to see how it stacks up.


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## jononotbono

b_elliott said:


> I saw The Matrix 22 years ago (twice).


I watched the Matrix trilogy 4 times just this December.  I've also watched Resurrections 3 times so far. Love it.


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## b_elliott

jononotbono said:


> I watched the Matrix trilogy 4 times just this December.  I've also watched Resurrections 3 times so far. Love it.


After watching Matrix 1999 today, this is truly a 10 out of 10 film. 
The 2001 Avalon fairs a 3 out of 10 for me.

Loved the music for the Matrix fight scenes but nothing I'd could sing in the shower. 

I am recharging now with a good dinner before watching Resurrection. I hope it is not a disappointment as I am pumped by Matrix1.

The only series I ever binged watched from early evening through to morning-- the entire Dirty Harry series. Wild times were had, but I was 30 years younger.


----------



## jononotbono

b_elliott said:


> Loved the music for the Matrix fight scenes but nothing I'd could sing in the shower.


Thank goodness not all music has to be singable. Really don't want to live in a Disney story.


----------



## jononotbono

I've just made an appropriate change to my Midi Reset button


----------



## KEM

jononotbono said:


> I've just made an appropriate change to my Midi Reset button



If you make a reverse effect button you better make it a TENET reference!!


----------



## patrick76

Creepy.


----------



## odod

Urs Heckmann and his HIVE 2 was involved in this movie .. awesome!


----------



## Pier

patrick76 said:


> Creepy.



Are there any links to this experiment?


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Pier said:


> Are there any links to this experiment?


No. Because one day, research papers will just be published as TikTok videos.


----------



## patrick76

Pier said:


> Are there any links to this experiment?


Apparently it was noted in “NewScientist”. I looked it up, having not heard of that publication before, and it seemed to be just a blurb about the topic. From what I saw, there are some criticisms about the publication.


----------



## patrick76

marclawsonmusic said:


> No. Because one day, research papers will just be published as TikTok videos.


Haven’t we already arrived at that day?


----------



## b_elliott

Now that I have watched Matrix Resurrection...

My favorite scene comes early: Tom (Neo) in a coffee bar with his co-worker Jude introducing him to Tiffany (Trinity).

Then comes a strangely familiar 3-note music theme Ab4 Ab3 Eb4. (attachment)

These same tones were used in _Close Encounters of the Third Kind _(1977) during the musical communication between man and alien in that film.

On its heels is the best one liner in the film: "Hey are you trying to ball my mom or what?!" Done with perfect delivery from a snotty insouciant teenager during a tender meeting moment. Hilarious. Brilliant stuff.

There is a later scene in Matrix 4 which is a nod to _Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon _(2000). At least I got the CTHD vibes while watching that fight scene with Morpheus2.

I can see why Matrix 4 holds up high with Matrix series fans. Deserves re-watching to catch it all.


----------



## AdamKmusic

b_elliott said:


> *I can see why Matrix 4 holds up high with Matrix series fans.* Deserves re-watching to catch it all.


where have you seen that? 😂


----------



## chillbot

b_elliott said:


> Tom (Neo) in a coffee bar with his co-worker Jude introducing him to Tiffany (Trinity).


What I couldn't stop thinking about in this scene was the episode (maybe it was two episodes) of _The Sopranos_ where Tony is in a coma, and while he's in the coma he's living an alternate life where instead of being a mob boss he's an insurance salesman or something (I forget). It was so eerily similar I wonder if that's where they got the idea or maybe an homage of sorts.



b_elliott said:


> I can see why Matrix 4 holds up high with Matrix series fans


Yeah I'm a big fan that's not a big fan.


----------



## LatinXCombo

MartinH. said:


> Dead... Someone should remake Evil Dead. Oh wait... they did. Then maybe Dead Alive and the other Peter Jackson classics (I'm kidding of course).


Even better idea: someone should reboot or even just do a follow-up sequel to that cyberpunk movie -- what was it called? _The Matrix? --_ that came out in 1999. I'd like to see that done, someday.

Oh well, i can wait.


----------



## b_elliott

LatinXCombo said:


> Even better idea: someone should reboot or even just do a follow-up sequel to that cyberpunk movie -- what was it called? _The Matrix? --_ that came out in 1999. I'd like to see that done, someday.
> 
> Oh well, i can wait.


Ha ha. After the end titles Matrix 4 ends with script writers brainstorming on the next sequel. 
Should M4 fail, we'll soon have a puddy cat starring in _The Catrix. _The writing is on the wall.


----------



## AEF

This new Matrix was really really bad. I didnt notice the music, bc everything else was so wretched. Looked like CW11 quality. 

I wish the suits would just let things be as they are and look for the NEXT matrix or whatever.


----------



## Lex

I really enjoyed it. I was prepare not to, I was prepared to find it very disappointing considering internet told me to do so for past 2 weeks.
Some things didn't work well, a lot of others did. It felt like a movie made by a director instead of something ordered by the studio for mass consumption and I found that refreshing.

alex


----------



## reids

I’ve watched it 3x.

Once for five minutes. Then another ten. Then another five.


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

My Two Cents

My view so far...

I have watched 20 minutes now and currently still going:

- I have to concur with the dislike of the score, it just feels so weak and empty
- I am done with overt political narratives and agendas being placed in movies. Film-makers need to realise they come up with great philosophical ideas, but fall flat on their reasonings, logically and coherently (so tired of it) [Cue stupid line about binary symbolism and reduction]
- The Mechanics of the action and the cinematography are great at times, but sadly that's not enough

Maybe they will make a game I can enjoy instead

As someone who went to Media Uni and spent so much time around creative filmmakers, it feels lazy and packed with overtly pushed agendas. Stick to making movies please, I can think for myself.

Worst Matrix made


Certainly an interesting point of view...


----------



## b_elliott

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> My Two Cents
> 
> My view so far...
> 
> I have watched 20 minutes now and currently still going:
> 
> - I have to concur with the dislike of the score, it just feels so weak and empty
> - I am done with overt political narratives and agendas being placed in movies. Film-makers need to realise they come up with great philosophical ideas, but fall flat on their reasonings, logically and coherently (so tired of it) [Cue stupid line about binary symbolism and reduction]
> - The Mechanics of the action and the cinematography are great at times, but sadly that's not enough
> 
> Maybe they will make a game I can enjoy instead
> 
> As someone who went to Media Uni and spent so much time around creative filmmakers, it feels lazy and packed with overtly pushed agendas. Stick to making movies please, I can think for myself.
> 
> Worst Matrix made


Interesting take. 

I noticed Rotten Tomatoes has Mtrx4 running @60% for critics and audience approval. 

Hard to miss the math behind The Matrix ("the one") gets used throughout Dune2021 (a Fremen and Bene Gesserit obsession). Now possibly reduced to a well-worn marketing groove....


----------



## Pier

AdamKmusic said:


> where have you seen that? 😂


Exactly...



Lex said:


> It felt like a movie made by a director instead of something ordered by the studio for mass consumption and I found that refreshing.


It totally felt like something ordered by a studio and made (even more) safe for a mainstream family audience to me.


----------



## Pier

b_elliott said:


> Hard to miss the math behind The Matrix ("the one") gets used throughout Dune2021 (a Fremen and Bene Gesserit obsession). Now possibly reduced to a well-worn marketing groove....


It's probably the other way around.

The Watchowskis must have read the Dune book which was published in 1965.


----------



## b_elliott

Pier said:


> It's probably the other way around.
> 
> The Watchowskis must have read the Dune book which was published in 1965.


Yep, I read Dune early 70s as a voracious reader. 

If I was any sorta writer though, I could have expressed what I wrote with penetrating clarity; alas, not so. Bummer.


----------



## ip20

Finally saw Resurrections. I was already expecting it to be not too good with the series continually going downhill for me after the amazing original, and all the negative buzz, so I was coming in with low expectations. Unfortunately for me, this was even worse than I imagined.
At times it felt embarrassing to watch. Very derivative, flat and cheesy. The first 30-40 minutes I found especially terrible then it got slightly better, and to be fair there were some cool moments here and there along the way. It is nice to see familiar faces of this series. Other than the main two stars, the cast was just very blah and uninspired and even the main two had to deal with this production’s trappings. The whole thing just felt soulless and amateur.

The music was decent background music but nothing that I found interesting or memorable, unlike the standout and iconic pieces in the original Trilogy.


----------



## LatinXCombo

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> - I am done with overt political narratives and agendas being placed in movies. *Film-makers need to realise they come up with great philosophical ideas*, but fall flat on their reasonings, logically and coherently (so tired of it) [Cue stupid line about binary symbolism and reduction]


They do??!? 

But yes, agree, would like to see less "Someone out there is thinking WRONG!" and more "Hey, let's tell a really good story with strong writing and great acting" from my entertainment sources.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Just watched the film. Can I just forget I watched it and ignore it even exists. Probably one of the worst films I have seen in a while. 

I liked the original trilogy. This one was crap, absolutely rubbish ending and overall terrible second half.


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

Aitcpiano said:


> Just watched the film. Can I just forget I watched it and ignore it even exists. Probably one of the worst films I have seen in a while.
> 
> I liked the original trilogy. This one was crap, absolutely rubbish ending and overall terrible second half.


All I had to see was Neo (is he Neo anymore, since there's more than one oNe ONE...)
Flying off into the sunset holding hands


----------



## Tice

There was more than one 'the One' since the first film. By the time we get to know the characters, it's already the sixth 'the One'. That was kind of the point.


----------



## ridgero

Didn't like the movie at all, but I really enjoyed the throwback moments. Matrix 1 is one of my favourite movies, it influenced the whole industry.

OST = OSTinatos mh?


----------



## KEM




----------



## Sarah Mancuso

Best Matrix movie since the first, and it's not even close.

If you think the Matrix wasn't always self-aware of its own silliness, and you think the Matrix wasn't always out to make statements, I'm not sure we watched the same films.


----------



## szczaw

I stopped paying attention 1/3 way through, and started fast forwarding, but lost interest in that as well.


----------



## MartinH.

Sarah Mancuso said:


> Best Matrix movie since the first, and it's not even close.



Interesting to see how it's so divisive. Now I kind of want to watch it.


----------



## Aitcpiano

MartinH. said:


> Interesting to see how it's so divisive. Now I kind of want to watch it.


Don't bother it's rubbish


----------



## tack

Given it's so divisive, the only way to really be sure if you'll like it is to watch it and see for yourself.

Or don't, because it's crap.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

everyone should watch Arcane instead - amazing animation, amazing music, amazing story!


----------



## Trash Panda

Sarah Mancuso said:


> Best Matrix movie since the first, and it's not even close.


Agreed. If you come into the movie expecting it to surpass or equal the first, I can see the disappointment. If you come in hoping it’s better than 2 and 3, it should exceed expectations.


----------



## quickbrownf0x

KEM said:


>


Just saw the film and this looks about right. I got the idea, but what a dumpster fire, jeez.


----------



## Zedcars

b_elliott said:


> I can see why Matrix 4 holds up high with Matrix series fans. Deserves re-watching to catch it all.


Pardon??! Reception for this movie has been pretty bad. I watched it and wished I hadn’t. I’m a huge fan of the original trilogy. Don Davis’ score is phenomenal. But this latest outing is just so far away from those older movies on many levels. The only thing I thought was good was the acting. The bad jokes were completely misplaced. It was like a fan made parody. Even the music was like someone took chunks from the score but completely missed the point about how it was all put together. The score of 1, 2 and 3 but 1 especially is finely tuned.

If you were to cut out Mona Lisa’s smile and paste it onto a photo of a random model then the smile is no longer beautiful.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

ridgero said:


> Didn't like the movie at all, but I really enjoyed the throwback moments.


I think this is why I didn't like it. It relied too heavily on the past to tell its own story. 

Like many sequels / reboots these days, it leaned heavily on nostalgia. Story-wise, it didn't feel like a legit continuation of the original story... more like a nostalgic dopamine bump. A bit of a cheap thrill. Meh.

Also, the throwbacks had different color grading (from the original movie) and it was a bit jarring visually. I am not a video editor, but is that normal? Seemed a bit weird to me.

NPH was awesome, though.


----------



## tack

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> everyone should watch Arcane instead - amazing animation, amazing music, amazing story!


Best thing I've seen in 2021, without a doubt. I finished it a couple weeks ago and I'm still thinking about it. (And I have never played nor care about League of Legends.)


----------



## jononotbono

I’ve watched Resurrections 9 times now. Love it so much.


----------



## Dr.Quest

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> everyone should watch Arcane instead - amazing animation, amazing music, amazing story!


Absolutely! Knocked it out of this one. Art design, animation, score, writing and cast - all top notch.


----------



## b_elliott

jononotbono said:


> I’ve watched Resurrections 9 times now. Love it so much.


Don't feed the trolls. It's already trending "let's over react".


----------



## jononotbono

b_elliott said:


> Don't feed the trolls. It's already trending "let's over react".


I hope my love for it feeds them well. Being hungry is no fun. I'm aiming for a 10th watch tomorrow but unfortunately I've had to work which has got in the way of my Matrixing.


----------



## Trash Panda

jononotbono said:


> I hope my love for it feeds them well. Being hungry is no fun. I'm aiming for a 10th watch tomorrow but unfortunately I've had to work which has got in the way of my Matrixing.


I don’t think I could ever get tired of NPH in this flick. Or anything else he does for that matter. Dude is amazing.


----------



## jononotbono

Trash Panda said:


> I don’t think I could ever get tired of NPH in this flick. Or anything else he does for that matter. Dude is amazing.


Totally! Anyway, its time to crash. On a Tyler Durden sleeping regime right now. See you in an hour.


----------



## Troels Folmann

The first movie was thought-provocative. So fresh with its John Adams vs Prodigy type of score. A new level of fighting choreography. It pushed boundaries for technological innovation. It changed fashion and made Latex mainstream. Bullet-time changed the visuals industry forever.

I read that Lana got inspired to do Resurrections because of the death of her parents. I think that came through in terms of the love story. I also think it had some strong political undertones - even making fun of Warner. 

But I didn't leave it questioning reality ... once more.


----------



## b_elliott

Dr.Quest said:


> Absolutely! Knocked it out of this one. Art design, animation, score, writing and cast - all top notch.


I started watching this series (Arcane 2021) last nite = impressive. 

I am almost shamed to admit but I completely missed on the gaming bug; however, I've hung around co-workers who would give up a night's sleep once a week to MMORPG. If they weren't also married they'd likely play more....

When I just looked, I noticed the statistic per Wikipedia is that eSports gaming draws larger crowds than NBA/NHL playoffs and world cup. Not sure of its veracity, but I am sold on the quality of Arcane's first two episodes.

10/10 for me,
Bill


----------



## jononotbono

Troels Folmann said:


> The first movie was thought-provocative. So fresh with its John Adams vs Prodigy type of score. A new level of fighting choreography. It pushed boundaries for technological innovation. It changed fashion and made Latex mainstream. Bullet-time changed the visuals industry forever.
> 
> I read that Lana got inspired to do Resurrections because of the death of her parents. I think that came through in terms of the love story. I also think it had some strong political undertones - even making fun of Warner.
> 
> But I didn't leave it questioning reality ... once more.


In my opinion, and it is just my little insignificant opinion, Resurrections is massively thought provocative. I love how the latest uploaded Matrix (the 7th Matrix) has changed, has evolved over time, to match exactly the world we currently live in and how to evolve and manipulate humans to feeling to the point where they never want to leave the simulation. Engineering an evolved simulation to make the masses be content with where they are through using desire of what they never can have and being fearful of losing what they currently have is genius. Well, a true reflection of what life for human beings is. Its not just intelligent from a story telling point of view but also in order to make it relevant to the world that we live in (not sure which one we do haha).

Watching Resurrections didn't need to make me leave questioning reality because the first film already did. The first film already opened Pandoras box. It was opened in 1999 and there isn't a lid. Well, not for me anyway 😂

I'm so happy we at least got a 4th film. Love it so much!


----------



## b_elliott

jononotbono said:


> In my opinion, and it is just my little insignificant opinion, Resurrections is massively thought provocative. I love how the latest uploaded Matrix (the 7th Matrix) has changed, has evolved over time, to match exactly the world we currently live in and how to evolve and manipulate humans to feeling to the point where they never want to leave the simulation. Engineering an evolved simulation to make the masses be content with where they are through using desire of what they never can have and being fearful of losing what they currently have is genius. Well, a true reflection of what life for human beings is. Its not just intelligent from a story telling point of view but also in order to make it relevant to the world that we live in (not sure which one we do haha).
> ...


Well explained. 
The matrix theme (artificial general intelligence, simulation hypothesis*) is thought about by philosopher Nick Bostrom (Oxford). 
I recall listening to Bostrom here in case you were curious. 
I am no evangelist--it's red-pill looking, or blue-pill not.

Cheers, Bill

* that we are living in a computer simulation.


----------



## jononotbono

b_elliott said:


> Well explained.


I wish! 

I long for conversation but... why bother? No one here cares. "It's shit". "Everything is shit". "The original is better; Why not remake the original to be exactly the same? but with different actors so we can say how shit that is too". At least we now know one thing. If, for some miracle, Lana Wachowski sees this thread, she knows who would never be interested in working with her! "Yes, I slagged your film off but I love you. Please, I need your money. I've got kids to feed. I was only joking. I love mAtrix 4"


----------



## KEM

jononotbono said:


> I wish!
> 
> I long for conversation but... why bother? No one here cares. "It's shit". "Everything is shit". "The original is better; Why not remake the original to be exactly the same? but with different actors so we can say how shit that is too". At least we now know one thing. If, for some miracle, Lana Wachowski sees this thread, she knows who would never be interested in working with her! "Yes, I slagged your film off but I love you. Please, I need your money. I've got kids to feed. I was only joking. I love mAtrix 4"



If they hire me do I get my own Hive 2 soundset? Cause if so I’m in


----------



## jononotbono

KEM said:


> If they hire me do I get my own Hive 2 soundset? Cause if so I’m in


Why would anybody hire you? Explain.


----------



## KEM

jononotbono said:


> Why would anybody hire you? Explain.



I… I don’t know


----------



## Trash Panda

jononotbono said:


> I wish!
> 
> I long for conversation but... why bother? No one here cares. "It's shit". "Everything is shit". "The original is better; Why not remake the original to be exactly the same? but with different actors so we can say how shit that is too". At least we now know one thing. If, for some miracle, Lana Wachowski sees this thread, she knows who would never be interested in working with her! "Yes, I slagged your film off but I love you. Please, I need your money. I've got kids to feed. I was only joking. I love mAtrix 4"


I care. I thought it was really cool how they basically answered the question: what would happen if Neo chose the blue pill.


----------



## jononotbono

Trash Panda said:


> I care.


How much?


----------



## Tice

jononotbono said:


> I wish!
> 
> I long for conversation but... why bother? No one here cares. "It's shit". "Everything is shit". "The original is better; Why not remake the original to be exactly the same? but with different actors so we can say how shit that is too". At least we now know one thing. If, for some miracle, Lana Wachowski sees this thread, she knows who would never be interested in working with her! "Yes, I slagged your film off but I love you. Please, I need your money. I've got kids to feed. I was only joking. I love mAtrix 4"


I care, and would gladly have that conversation with you.


----------



## Trash Panda

jononotbono said:


> How much?


North of the people in this thread, south of the bears with drawings on their stomachs.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

If I was a malicious super AI, I wouldn't just prevent people from spreading a message about how I had control over the system, I would design the system from the ground up so they wouldn't even be able to conceive of such things 

I find the notion that we are in a 'computer simulation' to be quite the anxiety-inducing false dilemma; I would be powerless against it, so.. whatever, then. Instead, there are far more interesting hypotheses out there about what reality could be, but this might eventually bring up other topics like 'what is knowledge?' 'what is free will?' 'what is good?' Et cetera. Those are complicated issues still discussed to this day.

The 'computer simulation' hypothesis is an unfalsifiable theory, and one that begs the question: at what point will the individual settle down and accept some world as being the 'real world'? To explain, what if when Neo exited the Matrix and saw the 'real world', it was actually just another Matrix? How would he _know_? Where do we decide when the diminishing returns end, and reality begins? Again, anxiety-inducing. No thanks.

When I watch the Matrix I focus instead on the human struggle against corporate greed and totalitarianism, rather than just man versus computer. This seems to be a bit reinforced by The Matrix: Resurrections, where Mr. Anderson is a game programmer working for a corporation demanding more product from his creative genius, just so that they can satisfy their excessive greed and make a profit. (But of course it's not the only theme in the films, as they're wonderfully complex, but anyhow...)

In the end I'm happy enough with whatever world is surrounding me that I can accept growing old and dying here, and I'm beginning to learn to be grateful for this place, and this life. If on the other hand you are able to craft a _positive_ meaning out of living 'in the Matrix', then more the power to you. It is beyond my capacity to do so, but if you can find happiness and love in a meaningful life, then what more be said?


----------



## b_elliott

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> everyone should watch Arcane instead - amazing animation, amazing music, amazing story!


Just completed watching season 1 of _Arcane_. The modern songs and soundtrack definitely are a notch (even more) above _The Matrix_. Stunning work.


----------



## Casiquire

I take a bit of a different view. I think the movie and soundtrack both suffer when viewed as a Matrix sequel rather than a separate movie whose plot centers around the originals, which feels more accurate to me. Seen as a reaction to, and critique of, the impacts the series has had on film and culture, i think the movie is actually good and the soundtrack is...fine. Not a masterpiece but fine. I enjoy a lot of the anime influences throughout the soundtrack and the way it sounds like Japanese style meets Hollywood drama at some points. The visual language and storytelling language have changed so much from the original series that i don't believe a score too steeped in the musical language of the originals would even have been appropriate.


----------



## TagoNug

Living Fossil said:


> Polytonality simply means that there are different keys in use at the same time.
> (the most common case, when 2 keys are used simultaneously, is also called "Bitonality").
> While it's not difficult to use different chords at the same time _per se, _the complexity derives from the fact that you need quite a sensible inner hearing and quite a good craft to control the different tonal regions.
> One aspect is that polytonality usually relies on a very conscious use of different ranges. If everything goes on in the same register with similar colors you will have a dissonant mash.
> The other is that the involved tonal regions interact in a way that usually comes with lots of dissonances. However, the human ear is eager to accept dissonances if they seem plausible.
> Therefore, aspects as voice leading etc also are of crucial importance in order to achieve plausibility.
> Third: polytonality creates lots of tension. And you need to know how to "manage" the involved tension. Means: you need a strategy how to introduce the tension, but also, how to leave it in a plausible way.
> 
> In that other thread, @Pier posted 2 links which give some valuable insights of how these (and many other) aspects are handled in the Matrix score.
> (Besides, polytonality was a big thing in the early 20th century. Composers like Darius Milhaud or Honegger, but also Stravinsky etc. made lots of use of it.
> These are the links, as originally posted by @Pier :



Here's my favorite video on the Matrix scores: 
It goes WAY more in-depth than anything else I could find. While polytonality is certainly a big part of the scores, it's not the only thing. There's also a ton of atonality and aleatory as well as minimalism/post-minimalism. Davis really flexed his knowledge of contemporary concert music in the Matrix and it definitely shows.


----------



## b_elliott

TagoNug said:


> Here's my favorite video on the Matrix scores:
> It goes WAY more in-depth than anything else I could find.



Loving Sideways' kid-like enthusiasm throughout this music analysis. 

Having worked this past year using an Anton Webern's tone row matrix in one of my own tunes, it was really cool to see _The Matrix_' matrix on display*. I hope to give that version a spin since I dug Webern's attitude on the whole matter.

*[cued tone-row matrix] 

ps. Ha ha now I know of the best fart joke on the net. -mazing!


----------



## KEM

So I FINALLY watched The Matrix this morning and I loved it!! The digital effects didn’t age very well but the concepts and aesthetics were awesome, the movie was very well paced and I loved the music


----------



## jononotbono

KEM said:


> So I FINALLY watched The Matrix this morning and I loved it!! The digital effects didn’t age very well but the concepts and aesthetics were awesome, the movie was very well paced and I loved the music



Glad that you've finally watched one of the most ground breaking films of all time.

I'm curious though, why post this meme/thing months earlier this year (I think Jan 5th) when you didn't even know what you were talking about? 
Explain!  



KEM said:


>


----------



## KEM

jononotbono said:


> Glad that you've finally watched one of the most ground breaking films of all time.
> 
> I'm curious though, why post this meme/thing months earlier this year (I think Jan 5th) when you didn't even know what you were talking about?
> Explain!



I kept seeing that meme on Facebook around the time Resurrections came out and since everyone in this thread was pretty universally hating on all of the sequels I thought they’d all get a kick out of it, but I personally had no point of reference lol

I’ll get around to watching all of them eventually, although my expectations are low


----------



## jononotbono

KEM said:


> I kept seeing that meme on Facebook around the time Resurrections came out and since everyone in this thread was pretty universally hating on all of the sequels I thought they’d all get a kick out of it, but I personally had no point of reference lol


Glad you're being honest. Well, sometimes things have to be done?!



KEM said:


> I’ll get around to watching all of them eventually, although my expectations are low


No you won't, you're already thinking about the next Batman film, whether JXL will release a Brass Library before HZ does or whether you should finally concede and this coming Easter you should watch an ancient movie everyone in the family has talked about forever called, The Shawshank Redemption.

I hate liars


----------



## KEM

jononotbono said:


> Glad you're being honest. Well, sometimes things have to be done?!
> 
> 
> No you won't, you're already thinking about the next Batman film, whether JXL will release a Brass Library before HZ does or whether you should finally concede and this coming Easter you should watch an ancient movie everyone in the family has talked about forever called, The Shawshank Redemption.
> 
> I hate liars



Called me out damn  

I’ve already seen Shawshank actually!! Great movie


----------



## Pier

jononotbono said:


> Glad that you've finally watched one of the most ground breaking films of all time.


At least in terms of CGI.

I love the music although not sure I'd say it's one of the most ground breaking of all time.

The general story and world building are amazing, but the script in itself is pretty mediocre honestly. The characters and dialogues are just terrible.

The acting is also mediocre but I guess it's what you'd expect from a blockbuster action film.

The production design, visual tone, etc, was a straight copy from Dark City. They even reused the same sets:


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> At least in terms of CGI.
> 
> I love the music although not sure I'd say it's one of the most ground breaking of all time.
> 
> The general story and world building are amazing, but the script in itself is pretty mediocre honestly. The characters and dialogues are just terrible.
> 
> The acting is also mediocre but I guess it's what you'd expect from a blockbuster action film.
> 
> The production design, visual tone, etc, was a straight copy from Dark City. They even reused the same sets:



I loved the music, I thought it was great, some of the electronic beats during the fight scenes sound dated now but the orchestral writing was awesome


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## Lionel Schmitt

Opening sounds like basic action music to me. Classical orchestral writing with string runs and brass stabs.
Bass pulses and synth arps. Col Legno or Bartok rhythm. Very default. Probably no need to listen more.
Insaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaane gap between this and freshness like Tenet and Dune


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## Jish

Pier said:


> The general story and world building are amazing, but the script in itself is pretty mediocre honestly. The characters and dialogues are just terrible.


Have to disagree on the 'script' part...yes, some of the character building did indeed suck (never did like the dynamic between Neo/Trinity...her character easily could have been better written) but when it comes to alot of the dialogue, it _is_ iconic for a reason, and it's the writing itself- there are whole sequences that are charmingly quotable in the film between characters (anything with Cypher and Smith in the first movie) in a way that most modern sci-fi films _just don't seem to have_. The interplay of what makes actually quality dialogue that digs deeper in an audience's memory and psyche goes well beyond what this forum is likely gearing towards, but rest assured that the dialogue in Matrix 1 is still better than atleast ninety-five percent of all sci-fi films, and light-years ahead of even the bottom of that ninety-percent.

I respect however that you are drawing direct light on how much _The Matrix _owes to Dark City- every right to point that out. I have never found a truly satisfying conversation that discusses the thru-lines between the productions of the two films, more specifically, the sheer degree to which the Wachowski's would have been using DC as a reference being that it was released only a year earlier. All I really know is that they somehow captured the exceedingly rare (not all that unlike SW) by drawing from a bunch of different sources in a way that just caught lightning in a bottle.


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## Pier

Jish said:


> Have to disagree on the 'script' part...yes, some of the character building did indeed suck (never did like the dynamic between Neo/Trinity...her character easily could have been better written) but when it comes to alot of the dialogue, it _is_ iconic for a reason, and it's the writing itself- there are whole sequences that are charmingly quotable in the film between characters (anything with Cypher and Smith in the first movie) in a way that most modern sci-fi films _just don't seem to have_. The interplay of what makes actually quality dialogue that digs deeper in an audience's memory and psyche goes well beyond what this forum is likely gearing towards, but rest assured that the dialogue in Matrix 1 is still better than atleast ninety-five percent of all sci-fi films, and light-years ahead of even the bottom of that ninety-percent.
> 
> I respect however that you are drawing direct light on how much _The Matrix _owes to Dark City- every right to point that out. I have never found a truly satisfying conversation that discusses the thru-lines between the productions of the two films, more specifically, the sheer degree to which the Wachowski's would have been using DC as a reference being that it was released only a year earlier. All I really know is that they somehow captured the exceedingly rare (not all that unlike SW) by drawing from a bunch of different sources in a way that just caught lightning in a bottle.


I definitely agree the script has some really iconic and brilliant dialogue lines. It makes sense in a way since the Watchowskis were comic artists years before getting into film.

But look at the shit ton of exposition by multiple characters like Morpheus or the Oracle. Or the lack of character building, even across multiple movies. Or how badly the character motivations are executed to the point it seems everyone is on auto pilot. It's like the movie is filled with plot devices to present a grand narrative of the world itself. Everything turns around this idea of the matrix, which is super cool, but the Watchowskis didn't know how to build a great script around that (or maybe they didn't care).

And for every cool line like "there's no spoon" or "ignorance is bliss" there are plenty of absolutely vomitive lines like "some things change and some things don't" in the following movies. Or those cheesy Baudrillard references like "welcome to the desert of the real" which only shows how little the Watchowskis understood his ideas.


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## NoamL

DarkestShadow said:


> Opening sounds like basic action music to me. Classical orchestral writing with string runs and brass stabs.
> Bass pulses and synth arps. Col Legno or Bartok rhythm. Very default. Probably no need to listen more.
> Insaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaane gap between this and freshness like Tenet and Dune


Uh. are you talking about the Don Davis score? The 1999 film?


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## confusedsheep

good interview with don davis


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## Jish

Pier said:


> But look at the shit ton of exposition by multiple characters like Morpheus or the Oracle. Or the lack of character building, even across multiple movies.


In a better, alternate world...there would not have been any sequels after the first one. The W's would have somehow avoided talking almost at all about the first film, and whatever deeper messages or meanings it _may_ or may not have had, à la Kubrick with _2001_. Sadly we are not in that world- and far from it as evidenced by the strange, strange existence of _Resurrections_.


Pier said:


> Everything turns around this idea of the matrix, which is super cool, but the Watchowskis didn't know how to build a great script around that (or maybe they didn't care).


Yeah, I'm of the opinion that the idea and concept of what the Matrix itself is was not at all a perfectly conceived and crafted thing. It was more of a premise-type device that acted as a springboard for other things they wanted to try in the first movie. The very 'gist' of a basic concept of humanity being used for some other ends or 'thing' existed well before the Matrix, but at the same time, they just executed and presented it in a far more novel way than anything else before it. 


Pier said:


> Or those cheesy Baudrillard references like "welcome to the desert of the real" which only shows how little the Watchowskis understood his ideas.


To be fair, I'm not really sure if I ever understood his ideas all that well way back when I was actually reading him (but better than Foucalt, though not sure that is saying much).

It really at the end of the day was the big overall premise of the film, and the execution and aesthetic that made the film at the time what it became. I also think that given the somewhat groundbreaking vision and scope that the film had, there was a _big_ degree of luck that went into it being so good. They had directed what, one film? Co-written another? It really just adds to how unique the whole thing even was, in a way.


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## Lionel Schmitt

NoamL said:


> Uh. are you talking about the Don Davis score? The 1999 film?


why would I?
I mean the Tykwer/Klimek score.

Was just surprised since I expected something at least somewhat brain fucky and unique.


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## chillbot

DarkestShadow said:


> I mean the Tykwer/Klimek score.


Hooray!


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## NoamL

Thank you for clarifying!


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## Kyle Preston

I feel like a psycho right now, but I genuinely loved Matrix 4. Truly! I thought the writing was absolutely brilliant. 

I also saw Matrix 2 & 3 in theaters on release day and LOVED it (I can feel your hateful eye-rolls). 

My only hang up was what Chillbot mentioned earlier, I really missed the industrial music — it was such a huge part of the vibe in the original trilogy. My brain will forever associate the ideas of Baudrillard and Descartes with gothic flesh and green strobe lights. The gristle hit my adolescent idiot brain in a way few things have since.

But I totally have to agree, in terms of zeitgeist or whatever, the score isn’t as sexy as Tenet (it hurts me to say that because Perfume, imo, is the GOAT). But I think the writing had ALL the brilliance of a Nolan film and then some.


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## Tice

At first I really disliked how there's so many people who strongly dislike part 4, or even 2 and 3. But by now I have a different outlook on it. I see 4 as a movie that was ok with picking and choosing it's intended audience. It stopped trying to be a movie for 'everyone', so it can stay within the community that will get great value out of it. Make something liked by everyone, and everyone who likes it will feel attachment to it for their own reasons. Sounds good on the surface, but not everyone sees eye to eye on what a work is 'allowed' to be. And a work's creator can't control the work once it's out there.


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## Pier

Jish said:


> In a better, alternate world...there would not have been any sequels after the first one. The W's would have somehow avoided talking almost at all about the first film, and whatever deeper messages or meanings it _may_ or may not have had, à la Kubrick with _2001_. Sadly we are not in that world- and far from it as evidenced by the strange, strange existence of _Resurrections_.
> 
> Yeah, I'm of the opinion that the idea and concept of what the Matrix itself is was not at all a perfectly conceived and crafted thing. It was more of a premise-type device that acted as a springboard for other things they wanted to try in the first movie. The very 'gist' of a basic concept of humanity being used for some other ends or 'thing' existed well before the Matrix, but at the same time, they just executed and presented it in a far more novel way than anything else before it.
> 
> To be fair, I'm not really sure if I ever understood his ideas all that well way back when I was actually reading him (but better than Foucalt, though not sure that is saying much).
> 
> It really at the end of the day was the big overall premise of the film, and the execution and aesthetic that made the film at the time what it became. I also think that given the somewhat groundbreaking vision and scope that the film had, there was a _big_ degree of luck that went into it being so good. They had directed what, one film? Co-written another? It really just adds to how unique the whole thing even was, in a way.


Sorry, somehow I missed the notification of this comment.

Fair points and I agree with most of what you've written.

Regarding Baudrillard, I'm no expert either, but I think the basic premise is that the symbol (the simulation) ultimately becomes the reality.

In contrast, the whole idea of the Matrix revolves around the artificiality of the simulation, or the conflict between the fake and the real. Which btw the Ws have later clarified it was a metaphor about being a trans.


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## Jish

Pier said:


> In contrast, the whole idea of the Matrix revolves around the artificiality of the simulation, or the conflict between the fake and the real. Which btw the Ws have later clarified it was a metaphor about being a trans.


Yeah, I read the interview LW did in regards to the trans metaphor. One problem I have with it, is that it was stated long after the first film came out- and really, I think it's a simple and quick answer to a question they have been asked for over two decades now: "What is the Matrix _really_ about?" I think at some point it's quite easy for an author/creator to get frustrated and just want to provide more simple answers to get on with their day. Or the 'meaning' was actually far more shallow from the beginning than they would like to concede- maybe.

But all I really know is that it's unfortunate that there are so few films like it that are released in one's lifetime- the aesthetic rush that latches on from almost the first moment, and concludes with an open-ended and yet still satisfying ending. Any sophomoric philosophic trappings aside, it really got alot of people talking, and in a refreshing way then.

I don't believe for a moment, however, that the W's of the late 90's were coming from the inceptive creative-point of the Matrix as a, 'Trans Allegory'. And I may very well be wrong there, but that coming out at around the release of _Resurrections_....eh, something struck me as being very 'after the fact' regarding what was confirmed in that interview. But again, they released it so they can say whatever they want (even in retrospect).



Kyle Preston said:


> But I totally have to agree, in terms of zeitgeist or whatever, the score isn’t as sexy as Tenet (it hurts me to say that because Perfume, imo, is the GOAT).


Is that your favorite film score? Or just a favorite from them? I also love the music they did on that film, and really felt it made the movie easily two or three times better.


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## KEM

Well to be fair, since we’re making comparisons, TENET is the greatest film score of all time, so of course this doesn’t come close, but it’s still good


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## Pier

Jish said:


> I don't believe for a moment, however, that the W's of the late 90's were coming from the inceptive creative-point of the Matrix as a, 'Trans Allegory'. And I may very well be wrong there, but that coming out at around the release of _Resurrections_....eh, something struck me as being very 'after the fact' regarding what was confirmed in that interview. But again, they released it so they can say whatever they want (even in retrospect).


I had the same impression when I read the trans allegory thing, but who knows.

It could be that they only understood their own internal motivations years later. God knows I didn't have a clue what was going on with me when I was in my 20s.

OTOH in the video I posted she mentions changes to the original script, so maybe it really was their intention all along.


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## KEM

Found this video and let’s just say this scene is much better with this music


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## Tice

KEM said:


> Found this video and let’s just say this scene is much better with this music



Interesting how well the tension arcs match! It's like they edited to the same template.


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## liquidlino

Watched this film yesterday finally on Netflix. It started out ok, except for the silly amount of meta jokes about the Matrix franchise. But by about the end of the first act, it just got rubbish. So many awful concepts in there, like the bots becoming servants to the humans, growing plants... Worst of all were all the cringy slow motion moments, where the visual fx was like a first sketch up, rather than a polished final product, and the music was laughably over-emotional, when nothing remotely emotional was happening on screen (or rather, I think they hoped there was something emotional, but the movie just totally lacked any sense of soul or humanity).

Casting was odd too... Neil Patrick Harris (who I really like) is a weird choice - he's just not convincing as an actual devious evil mastermind.. he plays evil in a comic fashion, much like in the series "A series of unfortunate events". Unless they were intending this to be a parody, I can't see why they went this way...

At best, it was an unfunny tongue-in-cheek insider-joke final send off to the matrix franchise. At worst, it was envisaged by the makers as an emotive masterpiece, but execution fell far far short of their ambitions.

I'm surprised it didn't get axed early on in production when execs would have seen daily rushes... surely someone said WTF is this rubbish?!


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## Pier

liquidlino said:


> I'm surprised it didn't get axed early on in production when execs would have seen daily rushes... surely someone said WTF is this rubbish?!


WB only wanted a new Matrix movie, probably didn't care about the movie itself.

I'm certain Lana Wachowski only agreed to do it under the condition she had final cut and could do whatever she wanted.

And yeah, it's terrible.


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## osterdamus

KEM said:


> Found this video and let’s just say this scene is much better with this music


My goodness… I have to disagree. Totally unimpressed by the Tenet score, I even watched it an extra time just for the sake of soaking up the score. Nope. Great movie, and the music does “fit”, but nothing memorable to me.


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## Greeno

I thought they did a really good job of the soundtrack and movie, as some have mentioned it wasn't an attempt to compete with David but it complemented in the theme of Matrix. I thought a lot of the orchestration was quite detailed, often frantic ( in a good way) at times. Yes there weren't any dance music tracks or 'industrial' tracks but it still fitted well and for the intended audience rather than a broad audience as per the first movie.


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## KEM

osterdamus said:


> My goodness… I have to disagree. Totally unimpressed by the Tenet score, I even watched it an extra time just for the sake of soaking up the score. Nope. Great movie, and the music does “fit”, but nothing memorable to me.



Come on man, don’t push me…


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## osterdamus

KEM said:


> Come on man, don’t push me…


Wasn’t trying to and don’t want to, my comment was about the score alone. To me it sounds like someone had a great time with an arpeggiator, delay and pitch bend. That doesn’t make it remarkable or memorable to me. It’s off topic, but I’d be curious to hear why you find it so great?


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## KEM

osterdamus said:


> Wasn’t trying to and don’t want to, my comment was about the score alone. To me it sounds like someone had a great time with an arpeggiator, delay and pitch bend. That doesn’t make it remarkable or memorable to me. It’s off topic, but I’d be curious to hear why you find it so great?



The unique blend of djent guitars, trap drums, and EDM synths, nobody has done that in a film score before. As well as all the metric modulation, polyrhythms, and reversed, re-recorded, and reversed again orchestral recordings, Travis Scott autotuned vocals used as a motif, it’s a totally innovative score, easily my favorite score of all time


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## Mr Greg G

KEM said:


> blend of djent guitars





KEM said:


> Travis Scott autotuned vocals used as a motif


Which tracks of the score feature these?


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## KEM

Mr Greg G said:


> Which tracks of the score feature these?



Rainy Night In Tallinn for the guitars, Trucks in Place for the vocals, although if you listen to the complete score you’ll hear both on a lot more tracks


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