# Saturation, what do you do?



## Russell Anderson (Apr 5, 2021)

Hi!

Tone control, air, thickening and presence/3D sound are some words and sounds I'm starting to get into, as I'm trying improve/shape the sound of some instruments or a mix. Largely for orchestral music, but not just (some hyrbid music / experimental electronic / retro synth/rage against the machine-style of rock also sneak in there).

There are a whole slew of plugins I've seen named for this, many of which sound interesting and awesome; but I should for now avoid having 12 plugins that all do slightly different shades of similar activity, as my ears just aren't there yet (as with my wallet). What I'm after is learning some from the community on how you like to use what you like, and why? And if you happen to own something like Phil's Cascade, Kush Omege, HG-2MS, Vertigo VSM-3 or the like: why do you choose one over the other for a given task? I wonder why it seems many prefer True Iron towards the track-level? I'm a happy new owner of Phil's Cascade, but it took awhile to decide to settle with it before some of these others, and many of these I hear people are using side-by-side for different tasks despite their similarity to my relatively fresh ears. It may make sense after more experimentation, but I always worry the demo for some plugins will expire before it's really situated itself in my mind with a clear purpose, even if it sounds great. Many of them sound great.

Thanks!


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## Nimrod7 (Apr 5, 2021)

probably a worthless comment, but I am doing this since 2006 I still can't fully comprehend saturation and warmth, e.g. I can't predict and tell: "Hey, if I add an HG-2MS it will sound awesome" Others can do this very successfully.
I still do trial and error, most of the processors works better on different type of sources.
I am buying stuff on sale, because I have the same problem as you, it might take a lot of time for me to understand a plugin and where it works well or not.

My ears are not good which also don't help.
Youtube channel Mixing with Mike is something that help me a lot to understand. Mike is talking a lot about how something influences the sound (before going to actual examples), which for me at least is valuable.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 5, 2021)

Hi Russel
Many new plug-ins are released every day and this has been the case for many years now.
And every new EQ is of course much better than the one that was the absolute best yesterday... All the new plug-ins want to impress with an even better text, sound, GUI...
If you would only use your ears you would hardly hear a difference between the best EQ of yesterday and the one of today.
Then there is the category of "magic sound enhancers", where you don't really know what they do. Dangerous: If the plug-in only outputs the result +1dB louder than the sound at the input, you feel the result is better (louder sounds better). So you are often initially blinded by the distortion plug-ins, because distorted signals - even if only a little - sound louder (denser). After several applications, these "enhancers" are then left out again because they didn't really deliver what they promised (less is often more, applies here too).

So my recommendation: It's not about leaving out such special plug-ins, but you actually don't have to have every new magic tool. It is more important that you use the plug-ins used skillfully, for this you must know them well and apply the right possibilities in each case. Example: The "linear mode" of an EQ is not always the best choice... So better you have *your* 10 good tools that you use skillfully.

Example:
- 1 EQ for surgery + everyday tasks
- 1 EQ for mastering + air (why not with additional colored sound)
- 1 Compressor neutral for everyday tasks (surgery, NewYork compession, ...)
- 1 Compressor for mastering (why not with color)
- 1 Reverb for "nice tails"
- 1 Reverb for pushing instruments into the depth (without tail)
- 1 Maximizer, Puncher...
- 1 Limiter
- 1 Magic tool A
- 1 Magic tool B

With these tools you will be able to make good mixes for years - without having to buy new plug-ins again and again. Of course, the plug-in developers don't like that, because they want to make money. So they will day by day try to seduce you with "even better plugins".

Beat


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## Dirtgrain (Apr 5, 2021)

My favorite use is on synthesized basses and leads where saturation adds a fizz/burble (not sure best way to describe it) that resonates with me. Sometimes it can make something sound better in relation to what is around it.

Here is one I'm using right now. Does the saturated version sound better? The first half is without Reamp and Voxengo Tube--the second half with them:


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## Living Fossil (Apr 5, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> And if you happen to own something like Phil's Cascade, Kush Omege, HG-2MS, Vertigo VSM-3 or the like: why do you choose one over the other for a given task?


The answer is:
only experience will tell you.
If saturation is applied in an appropriate way, it's often quite subtle.
Therefore it needs years until you find settings that really do something without being destructive.

The worst thing with saturation is doing something become someone recommended it, because what
you do has to relate to the specific situation.
And if you follow some youtubers' advice – even if they are competent (which happens on occasions) – you will usually override your instinct.
And if your ears aren't there yet, you will usually end up with a harsh mix.

For comparisons between wet and dry signal, Beat mentioned the "louder is better" problem.
That's indeed something one has to take care of.
As a rule of thumb, when gain-matching dry and wet i set the processed signal around 0.3dB softer.
(i.e. the dry signal 0.3dB louder).
That's a good value, since if the plugin really makes sense, it will still sound better.

BTW, with Phil's Cascade you already have a fantastic option.
But it's really a tough one until you get out the best results of it.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 5, 2021)

I will sound like a shoes commercial, but... just do it. 

The more you do, the more tracks you finish the more you learn. You have to have "failed" many times and made wrong choices until you get to a point when you know things are sounding "right".

So surely read and learn from what others do and suggest. But it is really up to you to try every saturation you have on a given track where you "smell" saturation should go on. Try Phil's Cascade or your Daw's saturation plugins or one of the hundreds of free saturation plugins and find out what plugin goes well with what use or instrument for the sound you are after. 

Many people have their go to plugin which they know when to take out of the pocket for a given sound.
Usually this "certainty" comes from having experimented in the past.

Anyhow... sorry about the boring lecture!
- The bypass button is your best friend.. always match the levels between the processed and unprocessed signal and AB once you are happy with the settings. Is something really added or are you destorying a nice clean signal?
-Less is more. A signal doesn't need to be obliterated... Often a very subtle process will obtain the best results. If you do obliterate, try using the saturation in parallel, the mix knob is a marvel.
- More is more. Destroy a sound with a death ray of heavy saturation and distortion and hear it being born again as a new super interesting furry animal capable of driving a track.
- Don't be afraid to try anything: Decapitator on the oboe? Why not? (Oh OK maybe not...bypass, done, next instrument!)
- For Orchestral you are slightly limited with experimentation (because an amount of realism you want to achieve) but with electronic music ...sky is the limit and saturation, distortion and clippers are such an interesting part of the game....


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## jcrosby (Apr 5, 2021)

Saturation's basically a cleaned up word for distortion, the most important thing to understand about saturation is that it adds musically related harmonics to existing content. So the short answer is it will thicken and enrich existing musical content if applied tastefully...

The harmonics generated can be even, odd, but often can be a mix of even and odd... Odd harmonics tend to sound brighter and edgier, even tend to be mellower, "warmer", etc. Generically - Tubes often produce lots even harmonics tape tends to produce lots of odd harmonics, but realistically hardware isn't linear and the range of harmonics in plugins (and hardware) can vary from developer to developer... Some set out to model the nonlinearity, others not so much... That's the technical version... Ultimately whatever sounds good to you is what counts most.... There are plenty of old 'saturators' that add only even or add and still sound great...

Saturation also reduces peak levels. This means saturation can be a great way to increase the perceived volume of an instrument... Basically you can gain headroom without having to resort to the use of dynamics processors. (Not that this is a bad thing... The two in combination can be great)...

I think the more useful way to approach this is understanding common types of saturation instead of listing/comparing 'favorite' plugins... Understanding the types of common saturation plugins, and common uses would be more useful...

Console emulations and transformers - These tend to be very subtle and have a 'glueing' or 'sitting' affect where elements feel more tucked in and 'sit' in the mix a little more naturally. Like any sturation they can be pushed and the results can range from thick and warm to squared off and clipped sounding.

Tape emulations - Again, these tend to be subtle and are most commonly used for a gelling / sitting affect. Tape also typically adds a 'head bump' which can be heard in the lower ranges, often adding weight to subharmonic frequencies. They often have an effect on the highs or high mids... Some subtly reduce highs, others subtle lift, some lift upper mids.... There's more technical stuff like what happens based on tape speed, tape tickness, etc but that's for another discussion... Tape machines also have a dynamic behavior so it's not uncommon for some people to use these instead of a bus compressor, or in combination.

Tubes - Often thought of as even, but some tube designs produce odd harmonics as well... Tubes can be mellow and 'warm', but also driven hard... the results can vary from a distinctly noticeable 'octaving' affect on lower content to all out overdrive, depends on what's being emulated....

There are also other designs like FET, transistors, etc... Again this starts to get in minutiae...

If I'd take a few key points away is that stauration:

Adds musical harmonics.
Affects dynamic range, and can be used to add headroom without compression or limiting
Can create a subtle glueing affect that can help elements sit together.

These harmonics can be seen on an analyzer by running a sine wave through them. This can be useful in understanding if the harmonics are mixed, even, or odd... Saturation can be one of the most useful tools in the toolbox... Spend an hour playing with your current plugins on different material and learn how to hear the more subtle aspects of what to listen for...

Some visual examples captured on an analyzer:

CLEAN SINE 100 Hz WAVE:





ODD HARMONICS






EVEN & ODD HARMONICS:


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## doctoremmet (Apr 5, 2021)

Great post. The fact you’re screenshotting Melda graphs made it even better.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 5, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> I still can't fully comprehend saturation and warmth


Same here. The reality is, would anyone appreciate (or even tell) that you used it? Especially on an orchestral track?


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## jneebz (Apr 5, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Tape also typically adds a 'head bump' which can be heard in the lower ranges, often adding weight to subharmonic frequencies. They often have an effect on the highs or high mids... Some subtly reduce highs, others subtle lift, some lift upper mids....


Good stuff...and one of the reasons I love U-he Satin so much is that it provides a visual representation of this that changes in realtime as you tweak the knobs. I could be wrong but I don’t think other tape emulators have that feature...


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## sostenuto (Apr 5, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> The answer is:
> only experience will tell you.
> If saturation is applied in an appropriate way, it's often quite subtle.
> Therefore it needs years until you find settings that really do something without being destructive.
> ...


Pushin me over hump on Phil's Cascade ..... today at net $30. with current promo(s). 🙄


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## suburst (Apr 5, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Saturation, what do you do?​


Hi, my name is not Saturation, but I am good, thanks for asking! :D


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## Aldunate (Apr 5, 2021)

Saturation only to mimic earlier recordings and after assuring the orchestration works without anything.


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## darcvision (Apr 5, 2021)

i have many different saturation tools, sometimes its hard to tell the difference. But i like saturation plugin with gain compensation, or at least have input and output. my plugin that actually i use usually are Airwindows channel7, ironoxide, bx console ssl G, sonnox inflator clone(melda saturation, basically wavesharper), black rooster audio magnetite (tape emulation), and stock distortion plugin(playing with dry/wet).


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 5, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Same here. The reality is, would anyone appreciate (or even tell) that you used it? Especially on an orchestral track?


I’d imagine it depends on the source and the goal. Thin, dry instruments could potentially benefit from subtle saturation of the mids and lows before applying a reverb. An orchestra recorded with tons of wet room reverb is more likely to get muddy .... though sometimes very targeted and sculpted saturation (eg Saturn 2) could maybe add some definition.

Try Kush TWK - absolutely the fastest and easiest way to try some tasty warmth on your sounds (just tickle the green lights at the strongest for orchestral - probably no more than having them light up at all). The downside is there’s no automatic gain compensation. It doesn’t work best on everything, but I’ve found it to work well on a lot of things. At least as a stand in.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 5, 2021)

Soundtoys Decapitator and Saturn from Fabfilter are winners in my book. Salt and pepper to taste.


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## Russell Anderson (Apr 6, 2021)

Thanks for the replies. I won't deny I've been getting pretty entranced by the _magic analogue_ plugins... Within a few minutes of installing Phil's Cascade I was able to bring the available mic position of Hammersmith Free edition "closer" and brighten the sound (level-matched), and _maybe_ even add some depth. That was awesome. I've been using a free waveshaper for years, and this is a welcome change, but I don't doubt with some more effort than I've put in and some pre/post filters I could probably come close to a similar presence and 3d effect. Or maybe not. 

I optimistically posted this thread thinking _maybe_ otherwise, but of course, the only personally usable answer always comes from experimenting for awhile, tbh I should have known. So long as the rest of the 95% of the music is in order (and provided I can't too easily achieve some sound I want), I won't feel too bad about trying or buying a plugin here and there but it's good these plugins can be resold.

Thanks again for the posts, everyone. @stefandy31 , I saw that null post in GS. That was cool to see. @Nimrod7, I've been learning a lot from the Mixing with Mike channel  I think the trialing and erroring is the way to go. At least the process is kind of fun. And at least plugins can be re-sold. @Jeremy Gillam the feedback parameter alone is a really fun sound design toy I've not played with anywhere else. My wallet sweats when I'm demoing Saturn, I just worry how often I'll turn to something simpler for non-feedback-related uses... but $ and time permitting, I'd enjoy messing with it. For awhile.



doctoremmet said:


> The fact you’re screenshotting Melda graphs made it even better.


I know I'm in good company when people start pulling out the Melda plugins


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## fourier (Apr 6, 2021)

I've posted my screenshot of how I've set up things in Ableton in another thread, but as a beginner in anything orchestral I'm leaning on flexibility with some parameters. I try to define a comfortable preset, and then adjust by ear as I start including instruments to the mix, including automating them.

I suppose this is my way of saying, "I don't know really what I'm doing or looking for, but I'm trying to lean on my ears for finding the sound I like", and for now I've gone with adjusting reverb, saturation and compression in a very simplistic manner.

Take this for what it is - a single parent newbie currently with very limited time to dive into his hobby sharing his thoughts. However, I'm very curious to know more about how professionals out there go about using their "magic", so thank you for the information shared here (I do know there are courses to dive deep into, but time management is a daily challenge).


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## jcrosby (Apr 6, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Same here. The reality is, would anyone appreciate (or even tell) that you used it? Especially on an orchestral track?


Sure. The key is to go subtle in most cases... Like I mentioned it has a way of tucking elements of the mix in while not sounding like you've altered the dynamics which is useful in pretty much any genre... As someone said above... All music was saturated at one time when everything was recorded analog... That's where something like console saturation can be useful.

Even then more modern scores, trailer tracks, etc are full of saturated brass, strings, even Percussion's in the right context. If you listen to JXL's more aggressive scores there's saturation on all kinds of stuff. Percussion, brass, and his Fury Road low string growls that open the film are intentionally saturated quite aggressively...

Context is everything though like I said.. If your doing traditional classical it's not necessary, if not probably considered unnecessary or inappropriate. (I don't do _traditional_ classical so I honestly don't know what the opinion is but my guess would be that it's generally considered inappropriate...) That said though... It can be great for tucking things in which can be useful in any genre if you go lightly...


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## justthere (Apr 6, 2021)

A lot of times I use PA’s masterdesk plug-in for glue. Mixing into it is key, once you have used it for a while and are used to what it does. I find that I reach for Foundation and maybe a little THD and get what I am looking for in saturation - namely a thickening of the low end with a parallel-compression-style dynamic treatment, ans possibly a little transient smear. In fact a lot of what seems sought after in terms of saturation can be gotten to by using a parallel compressor with some character.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 6, 2021)

justthere said:


> A lot of times I use PA’s masterdesk plug-in for glue. Mixing into it is key, once you have used it for a while and are used to what it does. I find that I reach for Foundation and maybe a little THD and get what I am looking for in saturation - namely a thickening of the low end with a parallel-compression-style dynamic treatment, ans possibly a little transient smear. In fact a lot of what seems sought after in terms of saturation can be gotten to by using a parallel compressor with some character.


Yes, some parallel AR-1 by Kush can sound nice and subtle. It’s a gentle compressor and it can handle transients quite well (it doesn’t seem to eat them or magnify them as much as many other compressors). The more you raise the input level and how much it’s compressing the more audible the saturation. Keep it gentle and it can be an excellent alternative to a dedicated subtle saturator.


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## Russell Anderson (Apr 6, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> If your doing traditional classical it's not necessary, if not probably considered unnecessary or inappropriate.


Maybe some would consider it inappropriate, but recording is already anything but a natural process compared to live listening. A lot of the saturation/reverb/compression is an attempt to get back some of the pizzazz of hearing it live.

Abbey Road OF for instance has tape saturation and some other processing baked-in.


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## Dirtgrain (Apr 6, 2021)

I could see using saturation on percussion in traditional classical music.


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## jcrosby (Apr 6, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Maybe some would consider it inappropriate, but recording is already anything but a natural process compared to live listening. A lot of the saturation/reverb/compression is an attempt to get back some of the pizzazz of hearing it live.
> 
> Abbey Road OF for instance has tape saturation and some other processing baked-in.


Amen to that. The whole process of recording is totally unnatural. Until we were able to capture music/sound as a recording, that musical or sonic event was ephemeral in that it only existed at the time of performance as moving air particles.


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