# Help Choosing first Orchestral Library



## ILlywelyn2000 (Nov 19, 2020)

Hi everyone,
Towrds the end of Summer lockdown I decided to try to teach myself how to compose on a DAW during my free time and it's been a lot of fun! I've been using the free BBC orchestra, and although it's been great I'd like to buy a proper library now that the Black Friday sales have started (I've attatched one of the pieces I'm working on at the moment as a reference). I'm eventually looking to compose stuff in the vein of these (though obviously not to the same standard!)
Ace Combat Daredevil
Nier Automata - A beautiful song
Kung fu Panda 2 (especially 4:21 to the end)

I'm trying to make a list of different libraries that I could buy over the next two or three years that would give me the range to compose a variety of cinematic/video game styles as I don't have the money to buy more than one or two libraries at the moment. I'm thinking of getting these in no particular order:
CSS
CSB
VSL woodwinds 1 (or CSW if that comes out?)
Komplete 13 Ultimate
Jaegar

To anyone who owns Jaegar and CSS or CSB, would the brass and strings in Jaegar be obsolete compared to them, or would they work well for layering with the cinematic studio libraries? Would just getting the vocals on their own be more worth it, if not I might get that first as it's currently on sale.I'm also thinking of getting komplete 13 Ultimate if it's ever on sale for 50% or more, but not sure if just getting Kontakt would be better.
What would people recommend as a good starting point from these libraries?
I'd appreciate any feedback and any suggestions for alternatives if there are some things you think wouldn't be worth it, thanks 
I'm eligible for student discounts and I'm running on a laptop with 16GB ram


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## THW (Nov 19, 2020)

Have you considered picking up bbcso core? That might fit your requirements well.


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## ILlywelyn2000 (Nov 19, 2020)

I thought I'd read somewhere that it was a massive download but I may have confused it for the pro version, I'll have to check it out properly. Would you say it's better than getting CSS and CSB seperately?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 19, 2020)

A lot of it boils down to preference and what is most important to you. Do you prefer a more classical or modern tone? Are you looking for versatility or a specific type of sound (loud, soft, in between, all of the

Do you care about playability and expressiveness? Do you want to push a key switch to change articulations or use a library that adapts to your playing naturally?

What sections do you need (strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion, etc)?

Do you care about the sound of the room it was recorded in or do you plan on using your own reverb to sculpt the room sound?

What is your budget?


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## ILlywelyn2000 (Nov 19, 2020)

Thanks for the reply  sorry If I wasn't very clear 

I think what I'm looking for is a modern sound with a lot of versatility. I'd really like to be able to do more 'epic' types of music as well though I'd still like to be able to do stuff like what I've linked. 

The main instruments I'm looking for are solid strings and brass though some percussion or sound design would be nice. 

In terms of key switches and that type of thing, I've got no experience with them so I'm not sure about that sorry

In terms of budget I'm willing to spend around £250-350


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## Trash Panda (Nov 19, 2020)

Based on your response, Jaeger and Nucleus are probably going to be a good fit.

Jaeger if you want more sound design, more articulations, more mic positions and the solo female vocals.

Nucleus if you want solo instruments (flute, oboe, trumpet, horn, violin, cello), woodwinds, tonal percussion and a full (but limited) SATB choir.

With the current Black Friday sale, you might even be able to get both if you buy one and get the cross grade discount of $100 off the other.

Also go Nucleus Lite > Nucleus Core if you stay there. It’s cheaper on the current deal than going straight to Nucleus core.

Disclaimer: Nucleus was my first orchestral library and I’m a huge Audio Imperia fanboi.


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## THW (Nov 19, 2020)

Concur with the Audio Imperia libraries


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## ILlywelyn2000 (Nov 19, 2020)

Ok thanks a lot!
Yeah to be honest I've been very tempted by the audio imperia demos I've heard, especially the voice! I think I'm leaning more towards Jaeger but I'll definitely have a look at Nucleus as well, didn't realize it came with a choir too


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## Trash Panda (Nov 19, 2020)

Nucleus also includes tonal percussion like marimbas, xylophones, glockenspiels, etc.

Here is a fun example showing what the library can do.


If you go Nucleus Lite > Nucleus Core cross grade plus Jaeger cross grade, you're looking at both libraries for £382 plus tax. My apologies to your wallet if that tempts you.


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## ILlywelyn2000 (Nov 19, 2020)

That does sound great. I think I'll definitely go for Jaeger... And I might have to blame you for tempting me but I'm starting to think about getting nucleus! 
Thanks for the help


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## JohnG (Nov 20, 2020)

Always choose based on your ears. It's great to get recommendations but it takes months to "learn" a library, so if you love the sound of one and are 'meh' on another, choose the one you personally love, not one we do.

If you like the sound of the BBC orchestra, choose that. If you prefer the sound of East West, choose that.


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## AlvinSWong (Nov 20, 2020)

I have CSS and CSB and Nucleus. I also think the recommendation for Nucleus based on your interests mentioned makes sense.

The solos are playable and great in there and there is a more modern mix vs a milder “classic” switch for your versatility.

I find CSS and CSB are great workhorses too but would be a softer tone overall compared to Nucleus brass and strings. Depends like mentioned what you are looking for.

I can’t speak for Jaeger. It is well known that the Merethe Soltvedt vocals in that library is awesome. But I have Clara Sorace for my vocals with the Ethera so haven’t felt the urge to go for that just yet. 🤔 might get Hangar 4 vocals only from Audio Imperia.

Hope that helps. Have fun!


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## Cathbad (Nov 21, 2020)

My first library was Nucleus and that would also be my recommendation to you, based on what you want to write. It's versatile, but perhaps slightly oriented to modern cinematic styles. Jaeger is a specialist action/trailer/hybrid library.

Here is a little piece I made with Nucleus, that some have been kind enough to say sounds quite effective. Alongside Tom Hawk's excellent Avengers mockup, it shows how versatile Nucleus is.





Project Sam libraries are definitely worth a look too.


If you want to do large-scale symphonic cinematic music, 16Gb might be a bit low.


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## mybadmemory (Nov 21, 2020)

I’d suggest staring with an all in one and then build from it, rather than starting with dedicated section libraries. 

Then it’s mostly a matter of two things to select one. Sound and workflow. Watch many videos to understand both aspects. 

I can testament that the workflow of Nucleus is great though. So if you like it’s sound, go for that. 

From there, a logical next step could be Jaeger, Areia, Talos, etc, and the dedicated winds and solos libraries that might come...


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## BMW_84 (Nov 21, 2020)

I recommend, as a few others here have, that you start with an all in one library. Nucleus by AI would be an excellent first choice as it has great sounds, easy to use, low on CPU usage, and is versatile enough to do epic as well as some softer music. That solo oboe alone is amazing! Albion One is another good choice but my pick would be Nucleus.


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## el-bo (Nov 21, 2020)

Have you thought about trying the EastWest Composer Cloud?


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## jaketanner (Nov 22, 2020)

Based off your needs. I'd say Cinesamples is a good library. 50% off for students at all times also, and it can work from moderately soft pieces to epic as well..still widely used among professionals today, even though it's on the older side.

I would stay away from any subscription services because then you will be locked into it unless you purchase the libraries after.


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## el-bo (Nov 22, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I would stay away from any subscription services because then you will be locked into it unless you purchase the libraries after.



Normally I tend to agree. However, in the case of EWCC, I see it as a way of demoing the orchestra (Plus whatever else) for the price of $20. If you love it, you get an orchestra that could serve well for years, and can be currently bought at AudioDeluxe for $220. If you hate it, the $20 loss is easier to swallow than making the wrong choice on any number of libraries.


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## jaketanner (Nov 22, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Normally I tend to agree. However, in the case of EWCC, I see it as a way of demoing the orchestra (Plus whatever else) for the price of $20. If you love it, you get an orchestra that could serve well for years, and can be currently bought at AudioDeluxe for $220. If you hate it, the $20 loss is easier to swallow than making the wrong choice on any number of libraries.


Yes exactly this..just not to continue the subscription is what I meant.  To demo is fine.


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## el-bo (Nov 22, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Yes exactly this..just not to continue the subscription is what I meant.  To demo is fine.



There is a part of me that thinks that if I were just starting out, and had absolutely nothing else, that I'd be happy to pay them the yearly $200, just make music and forget about all the "What about that other..." distraction. Of course, I understand the need for more diverse tools (I appreciate that, also). But I could definitely work within their extended sound-palette and be pretty content


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## jaketanner (Nov 22, 2020)

el-bo said:


> There is a part of me that thinks that if I were just starting out, and had absolutely nothing else, that I'd be happy to pay them the yearly $200, just make music and forget about all the "What about that other..." distraction. Of course, I understand the need for more diverse tools (I appreciate that, also). But I could definitely work within their extended sound-palette and be pretty content


It’s not the yearly $200. It’s that if you decide to stop, and then down the road have to recall anything, you will need to sign up again. And unless you pay for the start and stop option, you might be stuck paying for another year. Not sure. It’s really not worth it long term u less you use every single library in the sub. But if you’re using just the orchestra gold, you can buy it outright for the same yearly. But you have options and that’s what it’s all about.


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## el-bo (Nov 22, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> It’s not the yearly $200. It’s that if you decide to stop, and then down the road have to recall anything, you will need to sign up again. And unless you pay for the start and stop option, you might be stuck paying for another year. Not sure. It’s really not worth it long term u less you use every single library in the sub. But if you’re using just the orchestra gold, you can buy it outright for the same yearly. But you have options and that’s what it’s all about.



If your interest is in just the orchestra, pay to demo for a month and then buy it outright.

However, again, I do think that for somebody just starting out in music, who had quite eclectic tastes, would do well just saying up, asking music and forgetting about everything else.
Think about the alternatives if, for example, a complete newb wanted access to choirs, orchestra, drums, epic drums and ethnic instruments, along with a smattering of keys, guitars and synths. The amount of hours of research, trawling forums and the possibility of making some pretty expensive mis-steps. Or just commit to $200 and just start making music. No need to overrun and incur an extra year's charges, as we all have electronic calendars in our pockets. And as long as everything was mixed-down before cancellation, no need to return (Of course, it'd only cost another month's payment if something was absolutely critical to revisit).

It's possible to pick up most of their stuff at pretty good prices. So if after that year there were things that one wanted to keep, it wouldn't be too much stress to pick this items up.

Honestly, man, I'm really not trying to sell this to you. I also don't like subscription models, and I can see the arguments against doing it. It really ain't a hill I'm looking to die on. However, watching the walktrhough videos and listening to the audio made me really want to join up and just dive in.And I have alternative options


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## johnfields (Nov 22, 2020)

I hope I may jump in with a closely related question without hijacking the thread altogether, I'm in a similar situation as the OP and looking for an entry library. However, I'm looking for something more rounded, for softer parts as well. I'm an indy games developer and want to make my own music for my games, but mostly just for fun. Which also means I don't intend to spent lots of money on dozens of libraries. I looked at Nucleus as well and for currently $299 it would make sense. But I also had a look at Abbey Road One and the sound, especially for softer parts and in dynamics, is really fantastic. And with $349 (and let's see if anything else comes with their Black Friday deal) it's not a big difference in price.

I'm not a musician though and will probably never become one. I have some basic knowledge about Orchestration, but not too much. Would ARO still suit me or are the missing Legatos too big of deal? And do you think the time I would need to invest in learning to use ARO would be far more than for Nucleus? Would Nucleus still be the better option or go with ARO, or something else altogether?


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## Cathbad (Nov 22, 2020)

johnfields said:


> I hope I may jump in with a closely related question without hijacking the thread altogether, I'm in a similar situation as the OP and looking for an entry library. However, I'm looking for something more rounded, for softer parts as well. I'm an indy games developer and want to make my own music for my games, but mostly just for fun. Which also means I don't intend to spent lots of money on dozens of libraries. I looked at Nucleus as well and for currently $299 it would make sense. But I also had a look at Abbey Road One and the sound, especially for softer parts and in dynamics, is really fantastic. And with $349 (and let's see if anything else comes with their Black Friday deal) it's not a big difference in price.
> 
> I'm not a musician though and will probably never become one. I have some basic knowledge about Orchestration, but not too much. Would ARO still suit me or are the missing Legatos too big of deal? And do you think the time I would need to invest in learning to use ARO would be far more than for Nucleus? Would Nucleus still be the better option or go with ARO, or something else altogether?



Nucleus, Albion One and Berlin Orchestra Inspire are the usual choices for an all in one starter library. There are several libraries from Project Sam (including an excellent free one!) that you might also like, especially for games scoring.

I'm not at all impressed with AR1. Daniel James did a very fair review of it, and it has the usual Spitfire problems. The hall sound is quite nice, but you're stuck with it so tough luck if you wanted a drier sound or more brightness or bite for any reason.


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## mybadmemory (Nov 22, 2020)

johnfields said:


> I hope I may jump in with a closely related question without hijacking the thread altogether, I'm in a similar situation as the OP and looking for an entry library. However, I'm looking for something more rounded, for softer parts as well. I'm an indy games developer and want to make my own music for my games, but mostly just for fun. Which also means I don't intend to spent lots of money on dozens of libraries. I looked at Nucleus as well and for currently $299 it would make sense. But I also had a look at Abbey Road One and the sound, especially for softer parts and in dynamics, is really fantastic. And with $349 (and let's see if anything else comes with their Black Friday deal) it's not a big difference in price.
> 
> I'm not a musician though and will probably never become one. I have some basic knowledge about Orchestration, but not too much. Would ARO still suit me or are the missing Legatos too big of deal? And do you think the time I would need to invest in learning to use ARO would be far more than for Nucleus? Would Nucleus still be the better option or go with ARO, or something else altogether?



This depends on what kind of music you intend to write. If you want to write convincing leading melody lines, I’d say legato is quite important. And perhaps even more than that, the six great solo instruments Nucleus comes with.

If you’re fine with orchestral pads, swells, soundscapes, ostinatos, and atmospheres, and don’t intend to do strong melodies or solo instrument parts, ARO sounds fantastic, and legatos and solos will of course be added through expansions later.


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## johnfields (Nov 23, 2020)

Thank you. I'm mostly looking for a large dynamic range. I would like to make some music for my own games, which is usually some moderately epic title theme for the start screen (as in, some soft and some epic parts - the title theme for "World of Warcraft" is a good example for the general dynamic range I'm looking for (but not for the sound as libraries changed a lot since the times of WoW)) and also some epic combat and victory music, but mostly it's softer because the music should generally stay in the background and nobody would like to hear epic music all over the game. So far, I fell in love with ARO and maybe BBC Core. I love how they sound in softer parts AND in epic parts. The dynamic range is great and especially ARO sounds brilliant in that regard. I like Nucleus for epic parts but not so much for softer parts. It sounds too artificial to me. Most of the typical beginner libraries don't sound that great on the softer side, they still just sound like an epic orchestra toned down in volume or a bit artificial for my taste. The dynamics from playing softly and switching to epic doesn't come close to what I heard in Demos from ARO/BBC. So I was wondering if starting with ARO, maybe combined with BBC discover and other free libraries, or starting with BBC Core may actually make more sense for. Especially as they are at a comparable price to Nucleus and even cheaper than Albion (though I'll wait for the Spitfire Black Friday to see about that). I'm not sure though if e.g. ARO with some free additions would offer me all I need - and there are also some complaints about the software which bother me.


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## Cathbad (Nov 23, 2020)

johnfields said:


> ... what I heard in Demos...



Don't judge products based on the company demos. My wallet learnt that the hard way.

Better to listen to actual users and reviewers on YouTube for example. Daniel James is my favourite, closely followed by @Cory Pelizzari. You should definitely watch the whole of Daniel's review of AR1.

Your approach of having a starter all in one library supplemented by free bits and pieces is perfectly viable. Albion One, Nucleus, Inspire or one of the Project Sams would be fine as the core library. Please forgive a self example as an illustration. Hopefully it sounds alright and offers an alternative approach to buying expensive specialist products.




Paid-for stuff
Nucleus
Majestic Horn
A couple of synths, NISS and various percussion from Komplete/Kontakt

Free stuff
Angry brass and some strings from Performance Samples (no longer available I think)
Some string patches from Spitfire LABS
A bass guitar from Pianobook
Leeds Town Hall organ (Samplephonics)
Mihai Sorohan Vowel Choir
Thunder Taiko (Strezov Sampling)
Bits and pieces from the Project Sam free orchestra
Some traditional Korean string and percussion instruments (can't remember from where, sorry)
Epic Trailer Sounds (Audio Imperia)
Free Angels (8Dio)
Cling Film Frame Drum (Kralc)
Wooden Percussion (Kralc)
Raw Power Metallic Percussion (Riverwood Air)
Cinematic Synthetic Drums (Impact Soundworks)
I made some of the trailer FX myself and found others in various free packs.


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## mybadmemory (Nov 23, 2020)

BBCSO and ARO would likely be quite easy to combine both in terms of workflow and sound.

Out of the two, I would start with BBCSO since it’s already complete and includes everything, in comparison to ARO which is still quite barebones in comparison.

In the future ARO will be more complete and likely be a great addition to BBCSO, but at the time being, BBCSO will be able to do much more (legatos, sections, solos).


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## Cory Pelizzari (Nov 23, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Cling Film Frame Drum (Kralc)


Cling Film Frame Drums FTW.


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## Cathbad (Nov 24, 2020)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> Cling Film Frame Drums FTW.



Yeah, the cling film keeps the sound really fresh.


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## ILlywelyn2000 (Nov 25, 2020)

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone that helped me out with getting started, it was a bit daunting looking at all the different options. After going away and listening to a lot of demos I think I will be getting Nucleus and will consider getting Jaeger or at least hanger 4 at some point in the future


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## JonS (Nov 25, 2020)

Get SStO Professional.


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## purple (Nov 25, 2020)

Subscribe to EW composer cloud. It will cover you until you learn a bit more and is even cheaper for students. While you use it, follow this site, watch for deals and new releases, eventually something will catch your attention for being really good. Find the users on this site who often post demos who are _competent_ and give a fair example of what the best people can do with a library and listen to those more carefully. Listening to poor user demos is pointless because the limiting factor in those is the user (or in many cases their attitude towards noodling with a new library and posting the results) and not the software...


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## Trash Panda (Nov 25, 2020)

purple said:


> Find the users on this site who often post demos who are _competent_ and give a fair example of what the best people can do with a library and listen to those more carefully. Listening to poor user demos is pointless because the limiting factor in those is the user (or in many cases their attitude towards noodling with a new library and posting the results) and not the software...


Aside from being rude, this is terrible advice. If you’re new to composing or orchestral libraries, the polished product in demos and super experienced composers set up a false expectation.

That’s why hearing what a library sounds like in a beginner’s hands or even a noodling around session on YouTube gives a more accurate idea of what the library will sound like in their hands at first as a counterpoint to professional level mock-ups is so important.


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## purple (Nov 25, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> Aside from being rude, this is terrible advice. If you’re new to composing or orchestral libraries, the polished product in demos and super experienced composers set up a false expectation.
> 
> That’s why hearing what a library sounds like in a beginner’s hands or even a noodling around session on YouTube gives a more accurate idea of what the library will sound like in their hands at first as a counterpoint to professional level mock-ups is so important.


In either case the limiting factor is how good the user is at manipulating the library. At least if you get one that has more potential than you can grasp right away, there is room to grow. If you buy libraries based on what you think is "possible" with it as a beginner, you will inevitably grow out of that library and long for the better ones as your skill increases. When I'm evaluating which library I want to blow hundreds of $ on, I want to evaluate that based on how far that library can take me, not based on how good it sounds out of the box or based on what I can do with it on day one... This avoids the beginner wasting their money on libraries that will collect dust in a few months or a year once the initial "inspiring" feeling about it wears off and the library feels like a prison. (okay maybe this is a bit dramatic but I think you get the point)


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## Trash Panda (Nov 25, 2020)

Both ends of the spectrum are important. What it’s capable of given enough practice and work, along with what it will sound like out of the box to avoid feeling like you were sold a bad bill of goods.


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## Geomir (Nov 26, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> If you’re new to composing or orchestral libraries, the polished product in demos and super experienced composers set up a false expectation.
> 
> That’s why hearing what a library sounds like in a beginner’s hands or even a noodling around session on YouTube gives a more accurate idea of what the library will sound like in their hands at first as a counterpoint to professional level mock-ups is so important.


Couldn't agree more! I always prefer those "noodling around walkthroughs". I want to listen how exactly the instruments/patches sound, one-by-one, exposed, out of the box, and not some flawless demo featuring countless hours of programming from experts, and possibly several professional EQs and reverbs that I couldn't even afford.


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## Cathbad (Nov 26, 2020)

purple said:


> Find the users on this site who often post demos who are _competent_ and give a fair example of what the best people can do with a library and listen to those more carefully. Listening to poor user demos is pointless




I hope that wasn't a sideways dig at me or @The Serinator (or indeed Tom Hawk's work) for posting examples we thought might be helpful to a buyer. 

The music doesn't sound any better or worse depending on whether the composer has been awarded the purple badge of competence. It just sounds how it sounds and might help people form an opinion of the library, instead of just going by highly prepared demos from the developer.


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## purple (Nov 26, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> I hope that wasn't a sideways dig at me or @The Serinator (or indeed Tom Hawk's work) for posting examples we thought might be helpful to a buyer.
> 
> The music doesn't sound any better or worse depending on whether the composer has been awarded the purple badge of competence. It just sounds how it sounds and might help people form an opinion of the library, instead of just going by highly prepared demos from the developer.


Not at anyone in particular, and most of those who regularly post demos know what they are doing to a degree. It's about people who rush to buy a library and post some really nonsense screwing around with it that might turn people off.


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## bill5 (Nov 30, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> It’s not the yearly $200. It’s that if you decide to stop, and then down the road have to recall anything, you will need to sign up again. And unless you pay for the start and stop option, you might be stuck paying for another year. Not sure. It’s really not worth it long term u less you use every single library in the sub.


Even then it makes no sense long term IMO. Why spend hundreds and still have nothing when you could just buy and have it forever?

Nucleus looks interesting, although lacking some solo instruments is a deal-killer for me.

One thing that doesn't seem to be getting much consideration or discussion is how easy is a library to learn? For some that might not matter, but for others it's huge.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 30, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Even then it makes no sense long term IMO. Why spend hundreds and still have nothing when you could just buy and have it forever?
> 
> Nucleus looks interesting, although lacking some solo instruments is a deal-killer for me.
> 
> One thing that doesn't seem to be getting much consideration or discussion is how easy is a library to learn? For some that might not matter, but for others it's huge.


Nucleus has several solo instruments and is very easy to learn. It’s solidly programmed and consistent across instruments.


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## Kevinside (Nov 30, 2020)

BBCSO Pro is 40% off in december and its a good all in on library with articulations, other libraries don´t have, like portamento, flautando, sulpon, sordino recordings, short harmonics........


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## bill5 (Nov 30, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> Nucleus has several solo instruments and is very easy to learn. It’s solidly programmed and consistent across instruments.


Thanks, but I want a full spectrum of solos. It's odd IMO that they leave several out which could have easily been included.


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## jaketanner (Nov 30, 2020)

bill5 said:


> One thing that doesn't seem to be getting much consideration or discussion is how easy is a library to learn? For some that might not matter, but for others it's huge.


Unless you know absolutely nothing, it's not a problem I don't think..However..I must say that even an experienced user will need to take some time to learn the articulations in EW..also some libraries have the dynamics reversed...drove me nuts...lol


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## jaketanner (Nov 30, 2020)

Kevinside said:


> BBCSO Pro is 40% off in december and its a good all in on library with articulations, other libraries don´t have, like portamento, flautando, sulpon, sordino recordings, short harmonics........


It's also getting a pretty decent update including more content from what I heard.


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## bill5 (Nov 30, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Unless you know absolutely nothing, it's not a problem I don't think..However..I must say that even an experienced user will need to take some time to learn the articulations in EW..also some libraries have the dynamics reversed...drove me nuts...lol


Yeah, I've seen/heard enough about EW that I think I'm gonna pass. I'm old and impatient and have enough things driving me nuts


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## jaketanner (Nov 30, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Yeah, I've seen/heard enough about EW that I think I'm gonna pass. I'm old and impatient and have enough things driving me nuts


Although I wouldn’t doubt that with their new release, they might have reworked the libraries to be easier.


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