# EIS and Joseph Schillinger?



## IvanP (Apr 30, 2009)

Hi, can you guys let me know if there's any ressemblance with the Schillinger system of composition and EIS?

After having surfed this part of the forum and listened to examples (based on E1, stuff like that), I also found some similar approaches in the Schillinger students.

Am I wrong or are those systems related? If so, what are their differences?

Thks, 

Iván


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## jsaras (Apr 30, 2009)

Spud Murphy's system has nothing in common with Schillinger (or Schoenberg and Slonimsky for that matter). 

Schillinger's material is perhaps "over-thought" because of his background in classical music theory. Spud didn't have that background/baggage, so his method is more street-smart. EIS is extremely practical; you've got 12 notes, six intervals..now get to work!


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## Stephen Navoyosky (Apr 30, 2009)

Spud Murphy has always been associated with the ‘systems’ of Schillinger, Schoenberg, and Slonimsky by many attempting to defunct his life’s work. 

His original “12 tone system” caused referral to Schonberg’s Twelve-Tone System and this led to the renaming of it to, EIS.
“The Wheel” made for and given to graduates of the course still bears the name “12 tone” on its central point. 

But indeed there is a ‘resemblance’ to Schillinger as you allude, as well as the rest of them and even more. This doesn’t take away from Spud at all but in fact reveals his very bright mind to join and further augment all those ‘systems’ with a nucleus being horizontal writing based on equal intervals. 

What all of you have been and are experiencing, is a compilation of all known musical endeavors based on the hub of equal intervals using horizontal forms and then some. A complete non-genre music course.

Being a student of Schillinger, I also questioned Spud about this and then heard of his time development of EIS that started in the early 40s whereas he took a sabbatical and studied all ‘systems’ in order to better understand the aspects of music. He had no classical training at all before all this. This definitely was a feat in itself; to read, understand and mold all thoughts into one course of easy comprehension about music, without classical references to style and blending his conceptions and skills.

Embarking on Lyle ‘Spud’ Murphy’s System of Horizontal Composition based on Equal Intervals will give you the most complete compilation of music study bar none. Take it the way Spud delivered it and forget comparing with previous studies or systems. I had 35 years of vast writing experience and music education, and I still viewed this course as a naive student from the beginning. You’ll have a better understanding if you do this course as intended and not make comparisons. Spud is giving you the tools to develop you as an original composer/arranger. What more do you need?


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## IvanP (May 1, 2009)

Thank you, guys...

you say that one should take this course as intended, not making comparisons with your previously acquired knowledge.

So, how would you develop musically in a specific style? (jazz or classical, romantic or following other compositive methods such as integral serialism) without coming back to the "roots" and to the laws that rule that specific system?

I mean, both Schillinger and EIS can be used for composing and arranging. 

As for Schillinger's, I only have read his Kaleidophone which is a little excerpt from his whole system, but it opens a possibility of rythm repetition and interval permutations and derivative scale construction. But I can't see how it could be used on its own as an arrangement (though yes as a composition) without having to adapt it to the style's own voice leading and harmonic rules. 

As far as EIS goes, I listened the other day to Leo's nice arrangement of the Musical Offering. Forgive my ignorance, but I can't see how this EIS arrangement would sound any different than a jazzy re-harmonization of the same piece. What I want to say is: how much there's of Jazz in it and how much of EIS, for example? (sorry, Leo, to highjack your thread here...)

And, please, don't take me wrong...I'm not bashing in any case EIS or other numerical based system. I've been following last years the progression of some students and have been quite impressed...Rjames and Luca being some really incredible examples, to say the least.. I just want to know a bit of them all and evaluate how much of the classical or Jazz stuff I still have to learn, so I can improve withouth having to start a "faster, better and cooler" system a year later...

Thks, 

Iván


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## rJames (May 1, 2009)

Ivan, you've made my day by mentioning my name in a thread. Its got to be a first. And although I don't think Luca is a student of EIS, it is an honor to be mentioned in the same sentence as he.

I hope I won't step on any toes by jumping in here. Cause I do respect Stephan's authority as he is much more informed than I. Back in the days when I was a vehement apostle of EIS, I would paraphrase Stephen as saying something to the effect that he had taken Schillinger and considered it somewhat like kindergarten when compared to EIS.

Now that may be incorrect cause I heard it from someone who heard it from someone and so on and so on.

My experience is this. Your example of Leo's, "nice arrangement of the Musical Offering. ... would(n't) sound any different than a jazzy re-harmonization of the same piece.

Quite true. Because style has been injected. Spud never taught prog rock either but I'll bet that a student of EIS could listen and analyze some prog rock and nail it as well.

In a sense, I believe the biggest failing of EIS (I'm not sure I would really want it any other way) is its lack of teaching any kind of style.

Style is left to the composer. Style is based in an era or a genre. EIS is about musical construction. Style is totally left to the composer. If it becomes less cloistered and more widely available, I believe that EIS will be as fresh an approach in the year 3009 as it is in 2009.

I have listened to very little music in my lifetime. I am certainly no officianado (sp?). And so, in trying to work, I have had to study the style. And it is very tough putting a lifetime of listening into a few years.

Every time I attempt something new, I have a whole new genre to analyze. I haven't a clue.

In hindsight, an education in the history of music is important. It is what we humans have as a common subconscious; the meaning of which we all share (to a great degree).

I guess I went way off topic since I have no knowledge about the Schillinger System.


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## IvanP (May 2, 2009)

No problem, Ron, don't know if it's a first, but I'm sure it won't be the last...I think you have a very personal approach to composition, I like what I hear and I do believe that, over the years, your skills have improved a ton.

Luca, afaik, has studied some EIS. We're been friends for quite some time and I've seen him growing exponentially, the higher curve took place probably when he got interested in it...at least he caught my EIS attention with that, there was a tremendous push in his music...of course, he's extremely musical so it was a matter of time that such a burst happened...

Please, guys, keep chiming in...I know that, sooner or later, I'll take EIS, it's a matter of money, time and being sure it's THE system to improve faster and better...


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## Craig Sharmat (May 2, 2009)

I cannot add much more than what Steve said, and great to have you here posting again btw. 

There are times in the course where you get a sense of Big Band application as Spud did a lot of that but the course goes way beyond that. The lack of style has its good points but leaves questions. The main one is how do I apply the techniques I just studied. Often a student will get through the assignments but not take the time to really experiment with the material learned. This is where frustration can set in. The truly motivated student like Leo and Ron ( I use them as 2 examples as they have been mentioned previously in this thread) have gone beyond just doing the homework and have applied it, and thus the course not only works, but it is rewarding to the student. There is no question it is a commitment but if you are really committed to doing music you should expect no less from the course.


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## lux (May 2, 2009)

Ivàn, at first i have to publicy thank you for the really nice words about me, and i honestly feel i only partly deserve them. Anyway, thanks man 

Back to topic,to clarify, I've been student for just a very short time, i had to stop due to time at disposal (i'm still not a professional musician so i can dedicate sadly a very short time to it actually) but it has been a fun experience even for those few lessons. 

What EIS communicated me even with such a short approach is idea of a directional freedom. EIS gives you directional examples and possibilities, and probably a very few methods give you that. Of course youre not tied to them at every cost. But having a nice amount of possibilities at your disposal, and knowing that wherever you start from and you want to land you'll find a way sounds like an enriching experience. Least it can do is teachin to your ear a few possibilities, that you can incorporate in your music, and offering a good method in case you want to randomly hit your open hand two times on your keyboard and pull a piece out of it :mrgreen: 

Luca


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## Stephen Navoyosky (May 2, 2009)

IvanP @ Fri May 01 said:


> Thank you, guys...
> 
> you say that one should take this course as intended, not making comparisons with your previously acquired knowledge.
> 
> ...




Schillinger’s System of Musical Composition relative to mathematics was his thesis in 12 books (two volumes). He took all the known facts regarding the nature of musical materials from conventional theory studies and also added to other theorists such as Schoenberg, Conus, and Cowell, and reduced it all to mathematics. 

Murphy’s System of Horizontal Composition Based on Equal Intervals provides the student with a clear and concise quick approach to music, enabling that student to use his learned music theories in whatever style or genre or form his future vocational assignment may demand. You see, once you have learned and retained all aspects of music in general you can apply any style, genre, or form that you want to copy or which influences you. But first you must learn all the ramifications of music. 

I can understand your dismay of Kaleidophone in applying its “fruits” to an arrangement, as you are working ‘out of context’ from the entire course presentation. One cannot purchase the Murphy course and expect to start anywhere but the beginning without background and nomenclature. 

Upon your suggestion I listened and read Leo’s Musical Offering score of the Bach re-harmonization. It was a very fine application using the theories and materials of EIS based on his advancement within the course, of which is unknown to me. Both he and rjames are quite talented men, in my opinion. I am not familiar with Luca. The uniqueness of EIS is that five students could take that same line and you could hear five different reharmonizations. The material gained from the EIS course grants one to be original. It’s not ‘what to do’ but ‘what not to do’ in each musical decision. It’s that encompassing of a course.

You keep mentioning Jazz and once again, EIS does not teach style as that is left to the student in his application of the EIS musical theories. Once you learn EIS, you can do whatever you want to do with it and for any instrumentation. Some have selected jazz, classical, mainstream, while others selected film work, choral, piano, educational music, and so on. Learning style can be done many ways beyond ‘influences’ or books. Doing ‘takedowns’ will do wonders on examining styles as well as honing your dictation skills. Score study is still another means. Studying with Marty Paich gave me a chance to look over his scores, for instance.

When I stated not to compare EIS with other courses, the intention was for the serious student to focus entirely on EIS as a novice. In this manner you will discover many new features that you otherwise might speed read and overlook. Schillinger is but one music endeavor for me as I did a similar study like Spud long before I knew Spud. Every new course must be approached fresh. I started EIS with the pioneer of the AT work (book 11) by the name of Sal Aglora. He was the first to receive this advanced theory material without previous student applications…, which is why you see most of his applications adorning those particular books. I held off his insistence for me to do tropes until I—not him---was satisfied with my progress to that point of arrival. 

I hope I have helped you and others with my comments.


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## IvanP (May 2, 2009)

You sure has helped, Stephen, thks a lot, 

I really appreciate all your input, guys...  

@ Craig, I keep mentioning Jazz and style application, because in my ignorance of the jazz world I end up probably assuming that harmonic substitution and modal interchange is what makes jazz, jazz...or at least a jazzy feel in an arrangement of a melody, for instance...

My main concern, now, as a film composer, is to develop enough skills to be able to expand my music capacity to realms other than classical. Classical (and thus contemporary concert writing is good, but it's not always necessary on the gig I could get and I feel very limited in other musical scopes.

Should I assume that EIS would replace the modal interchange and re-harmonization theory which is taught at, Berklee or any other jazz school, for example, or is that a different matter and therefore it shouldn't be mixed at all?

Thks again, 

Iván


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## Craig Sharmat (May 2, 2009)

One of the most attractive features about EIS is it a concise study where As Steve mentioned you can do what you want with it, classical, jazz etc. EIS will give you the tools to master jazz if that is what you want to do. The methods at Berklee are obviously very good but EIS should give you plenty of Jazz knowledge if this is what you are after.


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## IvanP (May 2, 2009)

Thank you, Craig and everyone, that was really helpful...


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## sonomusic (May 2, 2009)

So can you just buy the first two books of EIS without committing to anything else? I'd like to look them over to see if it's something I'd like to study.


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## JustinW (May 2, 2009)

sonomusic @ Sat May 02 said:


> So can you just buy the first two books of EIS without committing to anything else? I'd like to look them over to see if it's something I'd like to study.



You really need the lessons to accompany the books, looking at them without any direction would probably make little sense to you.


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## sonomusic (May 2, 2009)

Oh well, I knew I'd get an answer like that. Thanks anyway.


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## sonomusic (May 3, 2009)

Thanks, rJames, I appreciate it.

I wasn't going to give up. I just wasn't going to ask around here anymore.


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