# Do we need a separate section for song reviews vs composer compositions?



## Frederick Russ (May 25, 2008)

Just checking in here - seems we're getting more cues in our member's compositions area that are less symphonic/film score and more pop culture oriented. Should we have a separate section for these? Too much? Not enough? What do you think?


----------



## Hans Adamson (May 25, 2008)

I think it is a good idea to diversify VI-Control by encouraging discussion about song-writing and contemporary music production outside of film music. There is a lot of potential for the Forum to grow in these areas.


----------



## lux (May 25, 2008)

Sounds good. 

In general I think this forum has been eagerly devoted to filmish music, while there's a whole world out there. Probably not a case that many of actual best sellers and awarded instruments are not typical scoring tools.


----------



## trisonic (May 25, 2008)

Rock Music can be Film music too.....................
The stuff I do for Films is completely unlike something just for commercial release.

Best, Pete.


----------



## JT3_Jon (May 25, 2008)

Its a double edge sword. On the one side I can see how it would be nice to have multiple forums for different types of music, however if you spread them across too many forums, you run the risk of not having enough activity in any one forum and the whole system dies. 

I can't speak for everyone, but if a forum has too many sub-forums, I seem to judge them by their titles and not explore the content within them. For example, if you create a "pop-song" forum, I may never enter that forum since I dont generally like pop songs. However, if I'm already in the "composition review forum" I may click on a pop song just to see what its about since I'm already exploring the forum. 

I've seen once thriving forums die because they over-categorized their topics. Leaving the lines blurry allows for more creative talk. If we create sub-forums for each genre, where would I put my symphonic rock electronica folk art songs? 

Just something to think about. IMO, the only reason to create sub-forums is if there is too much activity in a specific forum and posts get bumped off the front page too quickly.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (May 25, 2008)

I think it's a great idea. Sometimes you want to sample/hear cues in a genre, like virtual-orchestra, so you can go to a forum where that's all you'll here. If, OTOH, you're in the mood for something made mostly with recorded instruments, like electric guitar, vocals and band, or a jazz combo, you know where to go. And if one of the forum dies, then we'll know that there's not enough interest by the members here for it. But I agree that we shouldn't have many distinctions. I think soundtrack and song would be enough.


----------



## Frederick Russ (May 25, 2008)

I hear you JT3_Jon. That's been a gnawing concern of mine since when VI started. Usually what happens is that a sub-forum with less activity gets nixed (threads distributed to the next best sub-forum) so there is less risk of being sub-category overkill. On the other hand, I really like the idea of having additional genres addressed - I hadn't voted yet though.


----------



## rayinstirling (May 25, 2008)

I didn't notice any reference to symphonic film cues?
There isn't that much activity on the composer review page to need any other place to post. Take out the Giga demos and there'll be even less.


----------



## choc0thrax (May 25, 2008)

I voted for even more sections for different genres. Might not have been a good idea, I don't know how well sarcasm shows up on a poll.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 25, 2008)

Who cares?


----------



## Scott Cairns (May 25, 2008)

I think this its a great idea. Too many categories can destroy a good forum as mentioned, but certainly 'song' and 'soundtrack' (or similar) would be enough of a division.

VI instruments are used just as much by popular artists as they are by composers. I dont think its a bad thing for this forum to be slightly less orchestral or composer oriented. - and thats not a slight against them, just more of an opening up of what Virtual Instruments represent.


----------



## Aaron Sapp (May 25, 2008)

My first reaction was on par with Catzbarf's. If there was really heavy traffic, then that might be a good idea. The amount of traffic right now isn't forcing anybody to weed through pages of composition threads.


----------



## Thonex (May 26, 2008)

My vote is no. 

People can write "Rock" or "Pop" or "Electronica" or whatever in the post title. 

If people start posting tons of country and rock and pop etc... then maybe. But the frequency it's at now.. nah.

My 2 cents.

T


----------



## Christian Marcussen (May 26, 2008)

No.

I think the balance in the amount of sub forums is good (if a bit heavy). So I'm not in favor of adding more.


----------



## Scott Cairns (May 26, 2008)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon May 26 said:


> I think the balance in the amount of sub forums is good (if a bit heavy). So I'm not in favor of adding more.



Normally Id agree, it just that discussing modern songs is so different to discussing thematic or classical music.

Granted there is some crossover, but Im sure orchestral composers dont want to read about pop harmonies, Nine Inch Nails and Britney Spears in the composition forum. Just while I dont want to read about Gabriel Yared, French Horns or Fugue's in the song forum.

*This is not to say I never want to read about these things, Id just rather there was some seperation in them.*

When I have my composer hat on, Im happy to discuss orchestral music, film score etc.

When I have my songwriting hat on, I want to talk about lyrics, pre-choruses, hook-lines, prosody etc.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (May 26, 2008)

Scott Cairns @ Mon May 26 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Mon May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the balance in the amount of sub forums is good (if a bit heavy). So I'm not in favor of adding more.
> ...



Well - I don't wan't to read about East West Silver, Gigastudio or Saxophones. Yet I don't think the solution to that problem is to create a subforum for each


----------



## nikolas (May 26, 2008)

My vote is "NO"

Listening forum is exactly that! All is music! Either way it's not getting that huge traffic over the other forums.


----------



## lux (May 26, 2008)

I think important is how we like this place to be.

On my personal standpoint this place is a bit limited by its structure and history. My impression is that are a lot of composers lurking that just do not post because of this "media'ish professionalist" appeal that established here. 

In general being more open to other genres would lead at least half the composers here to improve in their personal musical experience, whetever they do in their life. Unless we want to keep up the idea that everything is not orchestra or banging percussion is covered by "using Athmosphere".

I do not exclude though that most members here want this place is just ok how it is now. Thats not nòX;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z:X;   z


----------



## Hans Adamson (May 26, 2008)

I noticed that Frederick has labeled the thread different than the poll question, which I didn't read thouroughly enough. The thread title talks about songs, the poll question asks about "pop culture". I am not sure about the distinction between contemporary film music and pop culture vs song writing. Maybe if the word "pop culture" was left out, the poll answers would reflect differently? Is there a value scale inserted here? (o)


----------



## Frederick Russ (May 26, 2008)

Not one I'm aware of Hans - I like all music when done well.

Seems the consensus is suggesting that although it may be a good idea, it might be a bit too early for it yet based on activity. If we do go with a new section, it will have to earn its keep by enough activity to justify it. We also may need to drop a forum to make room for it since we're pretty heavy as far as sub-forums and may need to condense further. 

I'll leave the poll open though in case things change.


----------



## rayinstirling (May 26, 2008)

Well I've posted a few bits and piece (without thought of genre) for review in the forum and can say, my reason for doing so was absolutely and categorically to receive constructive criticism. My view is that in many instances here and in other forums the reason composers publish their cues is in the expectation of much back slapping.
With very few exceptions most listeners would rather make no comment than upset someone... and that someone tends not to be the composer but more likely another reviewer with a different opinion. 
For this reason I agree with Nick Batzdorf “who cares?”.
If I want to hear a diversity of genre in composition I visit another independent forum of which I am a member, where the composition is as important as the technology used to create it.

Maybe I've just shot my “no change” argument to bits because that forum has nearly doubled it's membership in a few months.

Yes Frederick, you are probably right to ask the question.


----------



## Hans Adamson (May 26, 2008)

rayinstirling @ Mon May 26 said:


> I visit another independent forum of which I am a member, where the composition is as important as the technology used to create it.


Link?


----------



## Niah (May 26, 2008)

I don't think we need another section but I do think the member's composition review needs a change.

The amount of activity now is like nothing when I first started on this forum.

I also do agree that it is very centered around media scoring and that a good amount of members might feel less motivated to post their productions.


To prevent that I think it would be cool to be able to write a description and the genre of a piece on the post and that information appearing on the member's composition section along side the title

Meaning when you enter the section besides having the list of posts with the title you would have a description of the piece and genre, in different colour writing. Of course I have no idea if this is even possible.


I know that some members do write very descriptive titles and when I go and listen I know what to except and that has always helped me to sort out from the many posts which ones I want to listen and have a strong opinion on to offer to the poster.

The way it is now is a little bit gambling.


----------



## rayinstirling (May 26, 2008)

Hans Adamson @ Mon May 26 said:


> rayinstirling @ Mon May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I visit another independent forum of which I am a member, where the composition is as important as the technology used to create it.
> ...


I'm not going to give any direction away from this forum because this one has so much to offer the solo composer/recording technician and general dogsbody who doesn't get out much and see whats new in a market full of technology for sad loners :( 

Niah's comments are disappointing and totally disrespectful IMO.
You don't have to like every type of music you hear to learn from it, even if it reminds you of what not to do it is a worthwhile exercise. The world has enough problems caused by color coding.


----------



## Niah (May 26, 2008)

rayinstirling @ Mon May 26 said:


> Hans Adamson @ Mon May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > rayinstirling @ Mon May 26 said:
> ...



I don't see how my comments could come off as being disrespectful.

All I was suggesting was a way to promove wide participation in posters and reviewers without creating any division.


----------



## rayinstirling (May 27, 2008)

[quote:81360617d5="Niah @ Mon May 26, 2008 11:11 pm"]

Niah's comments are disappointing and totally disrespectful IMO.
You don't have to likeòX‰   zIçX‰   zIèX‰   zIéX‰   zIêX‰   zIëX‰   zIìX‰   zIíX‰   zIîX‰   zIïX‰   zIðX‰   zIñX‰   zIòX‰   zIóX‰   zIôX‰   zIõX‰   zIöX‰   zI÷X‰   zIøX‰   zIùX‰   zIúX‰   zIûX‰   zIüX‰   zIýX‰   zIþX‰   zIÿX‰   zJ X‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJ	X‰   zJ
X‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJ X‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJX‰   zJ X‰   zJ!X‰   zJ"X‰   zJ#X‰   zJ$X‰   zJ%X‰   zJ&X‰   zJ'X‰   zJ(XŠ   zJ)XŠ   zJ*XŠ   zJ+XŠ   zJ,XŠ   zJ-XŠ   zJ.XŠ


----------



## lux (May 27, 2008)

Aaron Sapp @ Tue May 27 said:


> Andrew, you gotta change that signature man. I nearly smacked the monitor with a magazine.



same here...


----------



## Scott Cairns (May 27, 2008)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon May 26 said:


> Well - I don't wan't to read about East West Silver, Gigastudio or Saxophones. Yet I don't think the solution to that problem is to create a subforum for each



I understand your point Christian. To use that analogy though, we already have one forum for KOntakt, and one for Gigastudio. They're both samplers - but we dont put them together cause people dont want to read about Giga specific information in the Kontakt forum. :D (and i guess there's a branding issue)

Ive read everyone's posts, I agree perhaps we can wait it out and see if the composition forum grows in popularity.

But it would be nice to do at some stage, I agree with what Hans said; "a separate song forum would be a way to attract a new audience"

I think this would be good for VI.


----------



## rayinstirling (May 27, 2008)

Thonex @ Tue May 27 said:


> For example, today I'm in the mood for a Balinese monkey chant style of music.... and nothing else :D



:lol: with running water in the background

I agree with Aaron and Luca about swatting that bug. :x


----------



## Alex W (May 27, 2008)

I vote no, VI has enough subforums, a separation of compositions in this way would add to the clutter.


----------



## Scott Cairns (May 27, 2008)

rayinstirling @ Tue May 27 said:


> I agree with Aaron and Luca about swatting that bug. :x



I think it got into my computer and had babies.


----------



## Niah (May 27, 2008)

rayinstirling @ Tue May 27 said:


> Niah @ Mon May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah's comments are disappointing and totally disrespectful IMO.
> ...



You're right Niah

I should not have singled you out.
ANYONE calling themselves musicians wishing to listen only to a specific genre are living in a blinkered disrespectful world.
IMO listen to them all or don't bother going to the composition review section.[/quote]


I have posted a wide variety of musical languages and genres on the member's composition section and have found that VI's members are one of the most open-minded and knowledgable people I haver seen on a music forum.

I also don't see anywhere in my posts where I state that I only listen to one music form or want to really.


----------



## Colin O'Malley (May 27, 2008)

Having a sub-forum called "Craft of Songwriting" or something like that would be interesting to me. I'm not in favor of fragmenting things, however I can't recall reading a thread in the user composition area that was focused on songwriting. There are better forums out there specifically for honing songwriting chops and we might as well make that happen here IMO. I agree with Han's post, that it would be a good thing to do in terms of growing the forum. If I wanted help with a song this is not the first place I would post currently. I think we could change that. Think of the Nashville songwriting community and elsewhere. We are very focused on film music here. Sometimes I feel like I'm painting myself into a corner with that focus. It's a big industry out there. 

I say open up a "Craft of Songwriting" forum for a couple of months and see what discussions pop up. If it doesn't work Frederick clicks his magic mouse twice and POOF!! it's gone. 

Colin


----------



## Lunatique (Jun 21, 2008)

I voted for keeping it all in one area. If we start splitting things up, it'll fracture the forum too much, and I've been through that first hand as a Forum Leader at cgsociety.org. 

We can employ a very simple thread naming convention where the poster has to state the style/genre at the beginning of the title. Examples of possible thread titles:

[orchestral-classical] Mock-up of Mahler's 5th, Adagio

[orchestral-film] Title theme for latest project

[orchestral-action] Hybrid cue combining electronic and orchestra

[orchestral-romance] Sappy, but the director wanted it that way...

[Electronic-soundscape] Evolving soundscape and sound design-ish stuff

[Electronic-Dance] Did this for a local radio station

[Industrial] For this dark horror film I'm scoring

[Jazz-Coctail Lounge] Did this for a clothing chain advert

[Bossa Nova] Inspired by Jobim and just wanted to try it

We could build a list of pre-determined style/genres that forces people to choose one, and if their piece does not fit into the list, they have the option to create a new entry in the list. The mods can go and edit/clean up that list of styles/genres if some entries are worded wrong.

Or we just let people title their threads anyway they want, with no pre-built list, as long as they put the style/genre first in brackets. 

What do you guys think?


----------

