# NEW ultra|vib + ultra|trem v2.1 - major update



## mbncp (Dec 8, 2006)

Hi,
I'm a little disappointed (which is an euphemism) to see someone going commercial with KSP.


----------



## Dynamitec (Dec 8, 2006)

Hi mbncp!

Why? Would you spend four month on something and than giving it away for free to everyone? Big Bob did this, yes! But it was his decision to go this way and while i'm at the beginning of my career, i think he enjoys it that he don't have to anything for money anymore (at least this would be what i didn't want to do after my career).

Ah, not to forget Nils...he does a lot for this community! And he spend a lot of time writing us great tools. But even Nils considered to make his Crossfade-Script commercial. 

And all the others here... yes, this is a great community of sharing! But:

Did you use my free scripts? Did you use the tools i wrote or use the ideas i've brought in here? I don't know...but i really don't understand that you are disappointed now because there are two of my scripts (which in fact took about 4 month to develop) are commercial?!

Of course, i'm "disappointed" too, that for example Chris Hein, doesn't give his guitar library away for free...including the scripts and the technology. Have anyone complained because he sells sample libraries (which in fact includes a lot of KSP if you look on his website)? :wink: 

I didn't meant to offend you - but i hope you understand my point better now!


----------



## mbncp (Dec 8, 2006)

I have nothing about the fact that you make some money with your work, I just hoped that no one would go this way with KSP, and that it would stay open source.

This is killing a bit the spirit, why would people share their code and ideas to see them eventually go commercial by others. I'm not saying it's you case, but I could understand people being not too crazy about sharing stuff around here, while I was hoping more devs would join the boat.

Just my 2cts


----------



## Thonex (Dec 8, 2006)

mbncp @ Fri Dec 08 said:


> I have nothing about the fact that you make some money with your work, I just hoped that no one would go this way with KSP, and that it would stay open source.
> 
> This is killing a bit the spirit, why would people share their code and ideas to see them eventually go commercial by others. I'm not saying it's you case, but I could understand people being not too crazy about sharing stuff around here, while I was hoping more devs would join the boat.
> 
> Just my 2cts



A few things:

1) No one is forcing you to buy the script.
2) Native Instruments totally respects the fact that developers would use scripts as a paid tool... why do you think they included password protection for scripts?
3) Stradavari would be nothing without it's script... and if they had to share their script with the rest of the world, I'm sure they would have just decided to create their own VSTI. (as did VSL shortly after they released their password-protected K2 horizon scripts)
4) What Dynamitec has written here is not your "typical" script. I think 10-30 bucks is not unreasonable.
5) KSP is a language.. not a philosophy. Just because many many people write VST plug-ins for free, do you think that Waves, Isotope, Voxengo, Antares, an the rest of them should be for free?
6) Lastly, Dynamitec has contributed a lot to this community... but he's straight out of college and has to make a living. You should be excited that one of our valued forum contributers is trying to make a run at it with KSP.


We are very fortunate to have Nils, Big Bob and Dynamitec and Nickie and many others here who contribute the the KSP community. If they did publicly release some commercial KSP products, it would not diminish in any way their contributions... 

Personally, it doesn't bother me at all that Dyn is releasing a commercial script. I wish him success with it.

My opinion.

T


----------



## Big Bob (Dec 8, 2006)

> Personally, it doesn't bother me at all that Dyn is releasing a commercial script. I wish him success with it.



Andrew, I'll second that!

While I hope that the openness and spirit of cooperation that been exhibited so far among the scripting community members will not only continue but even grow. However, if one of our group occasionally wants to take a flyer with selling something that he worked hard on, I think we should 'root' for him and not try to make him feel bad that he's not being more philanthropic. Especially when its someone who has made many 'free' contributions and hopefully will continue to do so.

If I had a need right now for one of Benjamin's Scripts, even though I might be perfectly capable of writing something very similar myself, I would gladly buy his script instead. I wonder if some of you have any idea of the time and effort that goes into something like this.

While I have written several major scripts and then donated them to the community, I have done so not only because I am a giving person but also because *I am in a position to do it. *The Lord has blessed me abundantly, so I really don't need any additional income. But, not everyone is in such an enviable position. Both Nils and Benjamin are young and just starting out in life. The fact that they haven't tried to sell everything they have produced is more amazing than that they might once in a while try to sell something. I wasn't nearly as giving a person when I was their age.

Benjamin, I personally wish you every success in everything you do and I don't think there is anything wrong with your desire to get some monetary compensation for your effort. I also hope you will not be discouraged by a few nay-sayers and that you will continue to make 'open' contributions to our community. Remember, there are givers and there are takers and some in between. Moderation is almost always the key to success and happiness but sometimes walking that fine line is not easy.

God Bless you my Friend,

Bob


----------



## Hans Adamson (Dec 8, 2006)

The script sounds fantastic, and Benjamin made it all by himself. I am grateful he is a contributing member of this community. He is entitled some privacy among the sharing.

It is sad to hear about ill feelings because someone offers a professional product for a small fee. I think a sharing community like this is fantastic, but there is one immature version of open source philosophy that reveals itself here: The idea that everyone deserves everything for free, and that no one has a right to make a living from computer programming.

Bob is philantropher in that he has created something exceptional only to give it away. We give him all respect and recognition for that. I am indebted to everyone here that helps me out when I get into trouble with my scripting. I am also happy for Benjamin. I would hate to see a general "developer-bashing" attitude gain following here.


----------



## mbncp (Dec 8, 2006)

Dynamitec @ Fri Dec 08 said:


> Why? Would you spend four month on something and than giving it away for free to everyone?



If I remember it right, it took me about 6 month (over 2 years) to develop MfxScript, and a few extra hundreds hours to write the 400 scripts that different people asked for. 

I made also a couple of vst or vstma plugs for people who asked for.
My latest contribution is a vst-midi arpeggiator (~ 200 hours), http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 64#2260064, that I will probably never use. :lol: 

And until now, at least on the financial side, God hasn't been too kind with me, forcing me to quit my job 15 years ago to take care of my wife suffering from ms, though not exactly for free as I get back a lot love.

Anyway, if you are desperate for money and it really took you 4 month to create these two plugs, may I suggest you looking for an other job.
Any, other job will be more rewarding, financially.

No offence intended :smile:


----------



## Thonex (Dec 8, 2006)

Hi mbncp,

So sorry to hear about your wife... what a tremendous burden... all the best to you. 

And yeah... I can see how KSP programming may not make you rich.... but programming in general can be very financially rewarding... not to mention creatively rewarding.

I sort of equate this whole thing to jamming. We all get together here and jam... if one of us wants to go out and cut an album (and there are a lot of more profitable jobs in general) then all the power to them. We're a sharing community, but that doesn't need to conflict with one's ambitions to write a commercial script.

Cheers,

T


----------



## midphase (Dec 8, 2006)

Hello Benjamin,

Best of luck with your entrepreneural spirit. I don't think there's anything wrong with you opting to charge money for your work.

However, if you don't mind me saying so, I think you've priced yourself out of most people's needs for a better vibrato/tremolo. I think paying $40 for something as subtle as a vibrato is not high on my priority list, but this is simply my opinion and I hope for your business sake that I'm wrong about this.

If your script was like $10 for pros ($5 for students) I'd buy it before you can say PayPal....and my guess is so would at least 4 people for every 1 person willing to pay $40....but I'm probably entirely wrong about this and I'm sure your sales figures will confirm my lack of business acumen.

Many thanks for bringing such a promising product to the masses!


----------



## Big Bob (Dec 8, 2006)

> And until now, at least on the financial side, God hasn't been too kind with me, forcing me to quit my job 15 years ago to take care of my wife suffering from ms, though not exactly for free as I get back a lot love.



Hey mbncp,

I'm very sorry to hear this and, believe me when I tell you I can really relate to the situation. I nursed my first wife for many years before she died of ovarian cancer in 1995. But I take comfort in the fact that I will see her again soon.

I think it's wonderful that you have donated so much of your time to help others with various programming needs and such but don't you think that your generosity is diminished by taking the attitude that because you do something philanthropic that everyone else that doesn't should be criticized? You sound almost bitter that you gave so much away rather than that it gave you pleasure to do so.

While I personally like to be a giver, I don't think badly of anyone who doesn't share my views. I think we should all do what our conscience and circumstance dictates. I think if you really are a giver, then you ought to *give* Benjamin some encouragement rather than what you are doing. I don't see anything positive about what you are contributing here. 

Maybe you could rethink this a little and come back with something more in the spirit of cooperation that we'd all like to see on this forum. I'd hate to see this deteriorate to the level of vitriolic bashing that's more or less become the norm on the NI forum.

So, why don't we bury the hatchet and get back to brotherly love? It's much more enjoyable  

God Bless,

Bob


----------



## mbncp (Dec 9, 2006)

Sorry if I sounded a little harsh, wasn't intended to be taken this way.
Again, I have nothing against people trying to make a living or a little extras with their work.

Although I didn't contribute too much to this forum, still need to take the time to get fully into KSP, I was very enthusiastic about this place, seeing people sharing their ideas, code, utilities, something that disappeared in the VST world.
Going commercial, that you want it or not, changes the rules.
Also it could put me or others in an uncomfortable situation, whether to decide to make a script available for free, equivalent to a commercial one.
That’s why I have been speaking about a disappointment, that’s all.
I would have preferred an open source code with a donation button, and would have been probably the first one to contribute, just to encourage the good spirit.

But that's me .. :wink:


----------



## Thonex (Dec 9, 2006)

mbncp @ Sat Dec 09 said:


> Sorry if I sounded a little harsh, wasn't intended to be taken this way.
> Again, I have nothing against people trying to make a living or a little extras with their work.
> 
> Although I didn't contribute too much to this forum, still need to take the time to get fully into KSP, I was very enthusiastic about this place, seeing people sharing their ideas, code, utilities, something that disappeared in the VST world.
> ...



I think there are enough of us that are willing to contribute our codes and share ideas for free that it really raises the bar for commercial developers. For example, if a commercial developer releases a legato script.... it had better be really really good, or else who is going to buy it?? We already have SIPS.

What I see happening is sample library developers are writing their own custom scripts for their own products and adding functionality to their patches. Doing scripts that automatically switch between spic, stac, legato while maintaining their RR integrity is something that would be hard to pull of as a 'universal' script, but much easier as a custom script because you already know what groups and whatnot you are working with.

Don't be concerned about the lack of sharing here.. I think you'll find that virtully any question you may have regarding KSP will be openly answered here.. if we indeed know the answer.

Cheers,

T


----------



## Big Bob (Dec 9, 2006)

> Don't be concerned about the lack of sharing here.. I think you'll find that virtully any question you may have regarding KSP will be openly answered here.. if we indeed know the answer.



Why am I always agreeing with you Andrew :smile: , but, I'll second that again. I think what is really important is that the contributors on this forum have a 'giving spirit'. I don't think that has to be mutually exclusive with an occasional profit motive.

*And, mbncp, thank you for your last post. *I think we'll be able to preserve what you want (a free flow of information and exchange of ideas) in spite of a few commercial forrays once in a while. But Andrew has a good point in that our free exchange 'raises the bar' for those who want to take a commericial flyer. And, that raised bar will benefit us all.

But, I might add that it's also not easy to sell something, so when one of us invests time and money developing and promoting a product, they need our encouragement more than ever. It's a cold, cold world out there and musicians as a class (sad to say) seem to be notoriously stingy. This is kind of understandable since most musicians, like canvas artists, are struggling to survive financially.

I think the post by midphase was refreshing. He wished Benjamin every success but expressed his opinion that the price was too high. Personally, I think the price is quite reasonable for all that went into it. But when you are on a tight budget, you have to carefully pick and choose what you can get and what you can live without. Believe me I have the same problem. Some of you may think that I'm independently wealthy but I'm not. I'm just grateful to the Lord for what I do have, which is everything I *need* and a lot (but not all) of what I *want* :wink: .

So, in the end, the market will determine the profitability or lack thereof of Benjamin's adventure. And since the market will be tough enough on him, I think we should all be as supportive as possible. After all, isn't that how families should operate?

God Bless you all,

Bob


----------



## Dynamitec (Dec 9, 2006)

Hi everybody!

Interesting discussion here! I'm really glad to hear many opinions on this theme! Thanks everybody!

I don't really know where to start answering!

Ok, i'll start reading the threads and answering step by step:

@mbncp: You developed mfxScript? Interesting! I was using this a long time ago! But it never worked very well due to some annoying cubase bugs (in the mfx wrapper). To bad steinberg never updated this! mfxScript is really great!



> Anyway, if you are desperate for money and it really took you 4 month to create these two plugs, may I suggest you looking for an other job.
> Any, other job will be more rewarding, financially.



Oh, of course! I selled some scripts at moment (6 licenses) which isn't bad for the "small group" of customers (because this script works only with kontakt 2 of course). 
But indeed: you can't live from that. And i don't intend to live from two scripts, don't worry 



> However, if you don't mind me saying so, I think you've priced yourself out of most people's needs for a better vibrato/tremolo. I think paying $40 for something as subtle as a vibrato is not high on my priority list, but this is simply my opinion and I hope for your business sake that I'm wrong about this.



Ok, i got the point! I understand this. Personally i think a realistic vibrato is really important to achive a realistic sound with non-vibrato samples. But maybe not everybody think so. So, maybe you are right. I did a change in the licenses. There is only one licenses left for everyone (15€, ca. 20$). I don't want to go below this, since i already sold some licenses and i don't want to let the scripts look "cheap". 



> Don't be concerned about the lack of sharing here.. I think you'll find that virtully any question you may have regarding KSP will be openly answered here.. if we indeed know the answer.



 YES! Surely!

For example: if anyone would ask how to achive a flexible vibrato i would tell him the way i did it!... and everybody of the early members in this forum here know, that if someone had a question i never answered with anything simliar to this: "I know how this will work, but i don't want to tell you. Buy my scripts if you need this..." And if this would be the spirit here, i would be worried myself!!!

Ok,
and finally:

Thanks for all the nice words! This is the spirit of this forum! As long as everything is in this way, i think nobody should worry about commercial or not, sharing or not...
Everyone here tries to help as good as possible.

Thanks too for the not so nice words, a good discussion is worth it!


----------



## Moonchilde (Dec 9, 2006)

I personally think the best way to make money off scripting is to do custom work for someone who develops sample libraries. Like Kirk Hunter or Gary Garritan.


----------



## Thonex (Dec 9, 2006)

Moonchilde @ Sat Dec 09 said:


> I personally think the best way to make money off scripting is to do custom work for someone who develops sample libraries. Like Kirk Hunter or Gary Garritan.



Yeah, but then you are just a "work for hire" and you don't own the intellectual property you created. But yes, sometimes that is the best route.

T


----------

