# Are we doing enough?



## mjc (Sep 5, 2010)

I just came back from a weekend away with a couple of mates. Both of these friends are hobby musicians/music enthusiasts. As always we discuss music we like etc...we got on to the dreaded topic of film music when I subtlety tried to educate them a bit by playing them some film stuff. I was surprised when they both said they don't pay attention to the music in films (unless it a song score). Now, for your average Joe that's perfectly understandable - but what struck me is that these guys are music lovers and capable musicians and I was quite taken back to hear that they couldn't name a composer or hum a theme. I played them one of my pieces and they replied with, 'yes well that's all very clever and all but no-one really cares about film music' (or music of that style)...I admit, even though it was not their intention and they are good friends of mine, I would be lying if I said I wasn't angry (even a little hurt) by their ignorance. For a minute I was thinking, 'man if my muso friends don't even care than why should I even bother!'...I wasn't looking for praise or a medal of superiority, just recognition for our love and craft. I got over it quickly of course but it did get me thinking...

...maybe it's just an Aussie thing...is it a similar situation for you guys in the States and Europe??


----------



## Narval (Sep 5, 2010)

When the music
serves the film,
pleases the film maker,
gets out there, 
puts some money in the composer's pocket
and some credits under his belt -
you think music is not doing enough?

Because it's not noticeable to X or Y?


----------



## gsilbers (Sep 5, 2010)

Narval @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> When the music
> serves the film,
> pleases the film maker,
> gets out there,
> ...



+1


and you should of told them that you dont care much about pop music unless a big boobed blond is singing


----------



## mjc (Sep 5, 2010)

Narval @ Mon Sep 06 said:


> When the music
> serves the film,
> pleases the film maker,
> gets out there,
> ...



Don't get me wrong Narval, I agree with your above quote. At the end of the day it's a job to fulfil. Maybe it's an overall lack of music appreciation and awareness which bothers me. Like I said it might not be the case in other countries.


----------



## mjc (Sep 5, 2010)

gsilbers @ Mon Sep 06 said:


> Narval @ Sun Sep 05 said:
> 
> 
> > When the music
> ...



HAHA! Funny thing is I do care about pop music. I'm a big fan of Redone, Dr Luke and Max Martin. 

Oh well, boo hoo to me then :lol: 
o-[][]-o


----------



## nikolas (Sep 5, 2010)

I learned the hard way that media music is NOT about music (surprise, surprise). 

In the end I decided to have a dual personality and keep writing concert hall music, exactly for that reason! LOL!


----------



## lux (Sep 5, 2010)

It has always been this way. Why should it be different?

There is a lot of people not caring for filmmusic. Maybe theyre into different styles. I had so limited knowledge of film music till a few years ago. 

We have a given amount of time to spend into listening music. If you spend it listening to something else you will not care about film music. Or Jazz. Or Heavy metal. Cant see any difference from the past. 

How much you care about dance/electronic music really?


----------



## David Story (Sep 5, 2010)

Music is married to film, tv and games. Love and vital support. Everyone notices when the music isn't working. It's part of the magic most of the time, perceptually. 

What gets to me is the lack of music education. People don't learn how to listen, leaving a void in their life. Kids do notice film music, and will listen to classical for fun, when they are given the chance.

When children learn to listen, they grow up caring more about music. Even then, instrumental underscore needs promotion. More pr for soundtracks!


----------



## noiseboyuk (Sep 6, 2010)

I do know a lot of non-muso friends who are into soundtracks. Oddly, my perception is that this awareness was increasing. On the other hand, it is hugely variable... I remember my dad, who is massively into classical music, expressing surprise that anyone put any effort into music for films or TV because he "never even noticed it", so I do get what you mean. But there are people out there who certainly DO notice!

Agree with many of the posts above, including Troel's, and I am a huge fan of themes. One of my most played soundtracks is Powell's United 93. I think I came out of watching that movie not even knowing if there had been a soundtrack in it.... and I compose! It was so perfectly and subtly done, it really performed it's job - never drawing attention to itself, but hugely adding to the atmosphere of the movie. Badalamenti's stuff with David Lynch can be the same... in that case it really fuses with the sound design, and it's incredibly effective.


----------



## Narval (Sep 6, 2010)

In all fairness, 
ajcmuso's frustration is completely understandable: 
when you love music with passion 
and see it's most always overlooked, 
how can you remain indifferent?

But then again, 
it's best to let go the things 
that are out of your control. 
And, after all, the beauty of music 
fully compensates for these type of frustrations.


----------



## lux (Sep 6, 2010)

i honestly think it doesnt have anything to do with how good film music is or how much buried by effect is or how much it works with the movie or..

Maybe i read it wrong but the OP was wondering why a couple of musicians friends do not care about film music. And in my vision is perfectly normal. There are orchestral musicians which will never get many rock forms, or electronica. There are rock musicians which do not get jazz.

Most of times film music is "instrumental music with a prevalence of orchestra". Something which i suppose there are legitimately a few guys out there which do not care about. Even in presence of beautiful works. They just dont get it.


----------



## stevenson-again (Sep 6, 2010)

well it may be true that many don't notice, but many do too. it's gratifying to get emails from people who have appreciated your work and write to tell you so. my daughter is a fan of film music and film soundtracks constitute 90% of her ipod content. maybe that's a bit my influence but not entirely. there is an association that goes on when a score takes your notice and is combined with the visuals. the visuals can bring the music to life as much as the music can bring the visuals to life, and the association lingers.


----------



## mjc (Sep 6, 2010)

Just to clarify I wasn't trying to question our craft, talent or efforts :wink: 

I think my question 'Are we doing enough?' was not properly phrased. Of course composers are all doing 'enough' to do the job as well as they can within the circumstances (at least I hope so!). 



Narval @ Mon Sep 06 said:


> In all fairness,
> ajcmuso's frustration is completely understandable:
> when you love music with passion
> and see it's most always overlooked,
> ...



Thanks Narval, spot on! :D 



lux @ Mon Sep 06 said:


> i honestly think it doesnt have anything to do with how good film music is or how much buried by effect is or how much it works with the movie or..
> 
> Maybe i read it wrong but the OP was wondering why a couple of musicians friends do not care about film music. And in my vision is perfectly normal. There are orchestral musicians which will never get many rock forms, or electronica. There are rock musicians which do not get jazz.
> 
> Most of times film music is "instrumental music with a prevalence of orchestra". Something which i suppose there are legitimately a few guys out there which do not care about. Even in presence of beautiful works. They just dont get it.



That definitely seems to be the case lux. Some musos love many styles and seek to broaden their horizons wherever possible (I consider myself in that category :wink: ), where others are more than happy in their comfort zones - which depending on their circumstances is completely understandable (but yes, frustrating! hehe)


----------



## Hannes_F (Sep 6, 2010)

ajcmuso @ Mon Sep 06 said:


> I played them one of my pieces and they replied with, 'yes well that's all very clever and all but no-one really cares about film music' (or music of that style)...


òB   å4B   å5B   å6B   å7B   å8B   å9B   å:B   å;B   å<B   å=B   å>B   å?B   å@B   åAB   åBB   åCB   åDB   åEB   åFB   åGB   åHB   åIB   åJB   åKB   åLB   åMB   åNB   åOB   åPB   åQB   åRB   åSB   åTB   åUB   åVB   åWB   åXB   åYB   åZB   å[B   å\B   å]B   å^B   å_B   å`B   åaB   åbB   åcB   ådB   åeB   åfC   ågC   åhC   åiC   åjC   åkC   ålC   åmC   ånC   åoC   åpC   åqC   årC   åsC   åtC   åuC   åvC   åwC   åxC   åyC   åzC   å{C   å|C   å}C   å~C   åC   å€C   åC   å‚C   åƒC   å„C   å…C   å†D   å‡D   åˆD   å‰D   åŠD   å‹D   åŒD   åD   åŽD   åD   åD   å‘D   å’D   å“D   å”D   å•D   å–D   å—D   å˜D   å™D   åšD   å›D   åœD   åD   åžD   åŸD   å D   å¡D   å¢D   å£              òD   å¥D   å¦D   å§D   å¨D   å©D   åªD   å«D   å¬D   å­D   å®D   å¯D   å°E   å±E   å²E   å³E   å´E   åµE   å¶E   å·E   å¸E   å¹E   åºE   å»E   å¼E   å½E   å¾E   å¿E   åÀE   åÁE   åÂF   åÃF   åÄF   åÅF   åÆF   åÇF   åÈF   åÉF   åÊF   åËF   åÌF   åÍF   åÎF   åÏF   åÐF   åÑF   åÒF   åÓF   åÔF   åÕF   åÖF   å×F   åØF   åÙF   åÚF   åÛF   åÜF   åÝF   åÞF   åßF   åàF   åáF   åâF   åãF   åäF   ååF   åæF   åçF   åèF   åéF   åêF   åëF   åìF   åíF   åîF   åïF   åðF   åñF   åòF   åóF   åôF   åõF   åöF   å÷F   åøF   åùF   åúF   åûF   åüF   åýF   åþF   åÿF   å F   åF   åF   åF   åF   åF   åF   åF   åG   å	G   å
G   åG   åG   å G   åG   åG   åG   åG   åG   åG   å              òH   åH   åH   åI   åI   åI   åI   åI   åI   åI   åI   å I   å!I   å"I   å#I   å$I   å%I   å&I   å'I   å(I   å)I   å*I   å+I   å,J   å-J   å.K   å/K   å0K   å1K   å2K   å3K   å4K   å5K   å6K   å7K   å8K   å9K   å:K   å;K   å<K   å=K   å>K   å?K   å@K   åAK   åBK   åCK   åDK   åEK   åFK   åGK   åHK   åIK   åJK   åKK   åLK   åMK   åNK   åOK   åPK   åQK   åRK   åSK   åTL   åUL   åVL   åWL   åXL   åYL   åZL   å[L   å\L   å]L   å^L   å_L   å`L   åaL   åbL   åcL   ådL


----------



## poseur (Sep 6, 2010)

this is a great, broad and subtle, and potentially frustrating topic for discussion.

my 2 centablos:
_we_ can only do what each of us, individually, can do;
we are incapable of changing what others will, can & do write,
other than by whatever influence we might exert upon other composers,
or on audiences via our own necessarily limited abilities to catch audience's ears.....
..... where that is even a fitting concern,
which it often is not, within the context of story/character/visual support.
so:
if i want to create somewhat "memorable" work?
i simply do what i can do, where i deem it suitable & effective to do so,
while persevering towards serving my _*function*_ as a film-composer.

of course, in my mind:
it seems most regularly to be asked of us to only fulfill scoring roles
that are primarily focussed upon very, very narrow stereotypical functionalities,
where "stereotype" stays-out-of-the-way by being based upon whatever directors
(and, increasingly, producers & "suits") perceive as "current norms".
so?
at least: do not copy a temp-score; just don't do it.

it is a tough (and, sometimes, very lonely) job,
for film-composers to even consider making regular efforts towards
the more creative aspect of their positions.....
that is, making music that actually brings something to the film's "table",
even when that film might be more resonantly effective in so doing.....

anyways:
we can only do what we can do, but.....
if the creative will is present, the potentially painful & "risky" reach may eventually be worthwhile.....
..... somehow.

afaict:
developing our own aesthetic & P's OV, and continuously developing the skills
to _attempt_ to achieve that,
may be key.....
real motivation, clarity of intention, persistence might be seen as the most basic requirements,
backed by enough strength to weather naysayers, no reaction,
negative reaction & out-and-out rejection.

as, i think, w/nikolas,
it is very important to me to maintain my life in music
--- my deadly love-affair with it ---
"clean", by remaining engaged with it..... beyond simply scoring.
which, fwiw, does not seem to damage my commitment to scoring.
i continue to play, to write, to produce, to record, to perform,
to be involved-with, committed-to & listen-to all kinds of music:
all integrated into _one life in music & the arts_, as i see it.

kinda works for me, even when i'm out of work.....
which, fortunately for me, is a pretty rare (if non-existent) occasion.
i think that my scoring, while still somewaht unique, benefits from all that,
and the perspective it might bring to my approach to scoring.

sheesh.
i have no idea why what-i-post, here, always winds up sounding like a freaking "credo".....
..... maybe i need to drink more.
break out the absinthe, cyrano!

d


----------



## David Story (Sep 6, 2010)

> ajcmuso @ Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:37 am wrote:
> I played them one of my pieces and they replied with, 'yes well that's all very clever and all but no-one really cares about film music' (or music of that style)...





> Hannes_F @ Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:35 am wrote:
> People are listening to music in an unconscious way, and in that mode they actually have a very deep understanding of quality. I think I have proof for that and would like to share that with you my composer friends:



Music IS the film, tv or game. It's integrated into the work, not separate. One experience. If people like the experience, they like the music. It's often intended to be unconscious, like Troels said.

I might not want the magician to explain his trick. But I care about his performance.

Hannes gave a perfect example of this in the busking world; the public reacts to quality even when they can't explain why. They simply appreciate it.

There's no doubt that quality music is required for most succesful media projects, imo. Sometimes we lead the show. Like acting, writing or CG. But what about public awareness...

Lux is onto a bigger topic: film music played apart from the film. Can it reach people on it's own? Yes, if you're name starts with J




How about the rest of us?
Educating kids in classical music, including film and game music, is vital. Even without this, there are soundtrack fans who ask for a release, but the studio can't be bothered.
People, as Hannes said, can be ahead of the pros in appreciating art. 
Not always





Maybe a [email protected] cue will get ajcmuso some attention from his friends.


----------



## Narval (Sep 6, 2010)

David Story @ Mon Sep 06 said:


> film music played apart from the film. Can it reach people on it's own? Yes, if you're name starts with J


You mean like H. Jammer?


----------



## David Story (Sep 6, 2010)

Oh, you mean Jimmer and Jlass.


----------



## Waywyn (Sep 6, 2010)

Folmann @ Mon Sep 06 said:


> Interesting topic and points - allow me to share my thoughts on this delicate subject.
> 
> I assume the majority of music for any motion media is contextual and supportive to the visuals. The best scores seems to support both the visuals/emotional/story, while also being able to stand out on them own - and the worst scores are disconnected to the movie and draws the audience out of the experience.
> 
> ...



+1000%


By the way, ajcmuso:
I always like and extremely tend to adapt certain situations to myself. Kind of like, "would I ... if...?"

So to ask, you felt a bit of pain that your buds hardly pay attention to the music (which I obviously understand ). But ask yourself the other way round. Do you pay attention to 3D/CGI or cuts in general? You may do, but I think you get the idea ...


----------



## mjc (Sep 6, 2010)

All great replies here guys! 



> Maybe a [email protected] cue will get ajcmuso some attention from his friends.



Hehe like I said, I let it go fairly quickly. Maybe in years to come I might get some recognition 8) ...we just do what we do!  



Waywyn @ Tue Sep 07 said:


> By the way, ajcmuso:
> I always like and extremely tend to adapt certain situations to myself. Kind of like, "would I ... if...?"
> 
> So to ask, you felt a bit of pain that your buds hardly pay attention to the music (which I obviously understand ). But ask yourself the other way round. Do you pay attention to 3D/CGI or cuts in general? You may do, but I think you get the idea ...



Yeh I definitely get ya :wink:


----------



## poseur (Sep 6, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> Interesting topic and points - allow me to share my thoughts on this delicate subject.


delicate --- for sure!
but, thanks for sharing.

definitions, as regards the "art" & "creativity" involving film-scoring,
surely can vary wildly from human-to-human.....
as do personal perceptions of what takes one "out" of a film, or "into" it.



Folmann @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> I assume the majority of music for any motion media is contextual and supportive to the visuals. The best scores seems to support both the visuals/emotional/story, while also being able to stand out on them own - and the worst scores are disconnected to the movie and draws the audience out of the experience.


of course, mostly agreed.....
but, not always,
since so many of us will disagree upon "best" & "worst" scores,
which scores "stand out" (beyond volume & density, as we can make such distinctions),
even what, precisely, _"supporting" a film_ can mean in any specific film
to the individual composer.
or, anyways:
so i seem to think.



Folmann @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> Its almost like composers has this ego urge to impregnate their theme stamp on everything, which can actually end up doing more damage then good.


a lack of sensitivity is one thing, imo:
a lack of ego?
entirely another thing, whatever "ego" really is.
as far as i can understand,
it takes an immense amount of what might typically be called "ego"
for a film composer to _step out of the way_
of the expectations, the stereotypes, the directors' & producers' pre-conceptions, verbiage & notes,
in order to allow the film's wants & needs to take some actually inspired shape
in the hands of the scoring-composer.
_¿no?_




Folmann @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> The concept of putting a theme on everything is pretty much equivalent of a world with logos all over it. We don't always need it - we need all the elements in the movie to play together and subdued composition can sometimes be a better venue then its memorable counterpart.
> The theme/melody undoubtedly always have its place, but there are many other important elements to consider and the blind idea of theme stamping everything strikes me as unique as coca cola.



ah, yeah.
i agree --- most times --- w/not caring to logo'ise a film,
nor do i enjoy endlessly demarcating the passage of film-time w/a plethora of start-times + hits-on-cuts, etc.
as well, i typically prefer under-spotting, when in fact the film can "handle" that.
(i don't work too much on animation, at this stage,
& have only worked as the composer on 3 films including strong "action"-elements.....
well, 4, but the 4th was a never-see-the-light-of-day-disaster.)

i believe that every film on which i choose to work
deserves to have its voice found..... by me,
hopefully w/the emotionally intelligent voice of the director in my ear,
when possible & warranted;
that is also a form of logo'ism/brandism,
but --- imo --- is a relatively healthy view of such 'isms, at least in regards to my own processes.

personally?
..... many times, i clearly find the subdued score to absolutely be more memorable,
and i do not think that i'm alone, in that,
as a composer nor as an audience member.

just sayin'!

best,
d


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 7, 2010)

I dunno. I try NOT to listen to scores, to see if they just blend with picture to present a seamless work. When they do, I consider them successful scores, BUT-

when I can't ignore the melodic content and it propels me and transports me and I feel the music has ENHANCED the intensity of the film rather than simply being married to it...to me that's the transcendent part of film scoring. Either way gets the job done- the enhancement is what I truly admire, though.

An example-Randy Newman's score for 'The Natural'. Vangelis's for 'Chariots of Fire'.
Tara's theme from Gone with the Wind...these melodies added power and wistfulness and 
MOVED me, then went on to be quoted endlessly in multiple formats over the years.

Current 'atmospheric' scoring, as amazing and talented as its purveyors are, seems like musical wallpaper and glue to me. I know that's heretical in the current climate, and god knows I'd TAKE THE GIG...but my fonder wish would be to create anachronistic music that moves me.


----------



## Ed (Sep 7, 2010)

Are they really big into the ins and outs of film or is film simply a mindless way to have fun for them? 

If its the former I would be surprised by this story, if its the latter I am not surprised at all. And yes it is annoying when people talk this way, but usually they dont really care about film as a whole, not just the music. In my experience people who really care about film always care about the music if its good. People who are real fans of something specific like Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica I've found also really love the music, or at least notice and appreciate it. 



ajcmuso @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> I just came back from a weekend away with a couple of mates. Both of these friends are hobby musicians/music enthusiasts. As always we discuss music we like etc...we got on to the dreaded topic of film music when I subtlety tried to educate them a bit by playing them some film stuff. I was surprised when they both said they don't pay attention to the music in films (unless it a song score). Now, for your average Joe that's perfectly understandable - but what struck me is that these guys are music lovers and capable musicians and I was quite taken back to hear that they couldn't name a composer or hum a theme. I played them one of my pieces and they replied with, 'yes well that's all very clever and all but no-one really cares about film music' (or music of that style)...I admit, even though it was not their intention and they are good friends of mine, I would be lying if I said I wasn't angry (even a little hurt) by their ignorance. For a minute I was thinking, 'man if my muso friends don't even care than why should I even bother!'...I wasn't looking for praise or a medal of superiority, just recognition for our love and craft. I got over it quickly of course but it did get me thinking...
> 
> ...maybe it's just an Aussie thing...is it a similar situation for you guys in the States and Europe??


----------



## poseur (Sep 7, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 07 said:


> Current 'atmospheric' scoring, as amazing and talented as its purveyors are, seems like musical wallpaper and glue to me. I know that's heretical in the current climate, and god knows I'd TAKE THE GIG...but my fonder wish would be to create anachronistic music that moves me.



your post begged a few questions of me, and i've added my usual useless commentary.

1) a) could you specifically point to some of this "current 'atmospheric' scoring" for me, in films?
i see & hear scant little of that, myself --- scant little of it, really.
and,
far from being "heretical" around these parts,
all of it is much more typically & _*categorically*_ demonised, here, as either cheap & tawdry,
an easy-way-out,
and/or it's implied or clearly stated that such directions are
based primarily upon the composers' lack of talent, skills..... or, both.
¿"heretical", you say?
in a place that's been so deeply focussed, as a group, on discussions of the work of the latest doings
of the "A-list" scoring composers
hmmm.
for me, such a statement is clearly food for sociological thought,
given the status of my own personal perceptions. and,

b) what skill might be better for film-scoring, if i may ask,
than to become capable of sincerely setting a suitable emotional _*atmosphere*_ & tenor for a picture,
whether delicately or indelicately?

2) do you, yourself, accede & commit to your own "fonder wish to create anachronistic music that moves" you? i hope so.

3) a) why would you "take the gig", and/or 
b) why hasn't it been offered to you?
do you pitch yourself for it? are you knowledgeable & musical with such things, acoustically or electronically, do you believe that
--- given your predilections ---
you're good & skilled in this regard, and can work inspiredly with it?
if not, wouldn't you be breaking with your own stated desire to pursue filmic "anachronisms"?
somehow, i think,
this is a world where professionalisms & getting-the-jobs-done-efficiently have increasingly supplanted
much desire for the pursuit of the basic musical qualities of "heartfelt" & "inspired", 
which also seem to have become ò?   å=z@   å={@   å=|@   å=}@   å=~@   å=@   å=€@   å=@   å=‚@   å=ƒ@   å=„@   å=…@   å=†@   å=‡@   å=ˆ@   å=‰@   å=Š@   å=‹@   å=Œ@   å=@   å=Ž@   å=@   å=@   å=‘@   å=’@   å=“@   å=”@   å=•@   å=–@   å=—@   å=˜@   å=™@   å=š@   å=›@   å=œ@   å=@   å=ž@   å=Ÿ@   å= @   å=¡@   å=¢@   å=£@   å=¤@   å=¥@   å=¦@   å=§@   å=¨@   å=©@   å=ª@   å=«@   å=¬@   å=­@   å=®@   å=¯@   å=°@   å=±@   å=²@   å=³@   å=´@   å=µ@   å=¶@   å=·@   å=¸@   å=¹@   å=º@   å=»@   å=¼@   å=½@   å=¾@   å=¿@   å=À@   å=Á@   å=Â@   å=Ã@   å=Ä@   å=Å@   å=Æ@   å=Ç@   å=È@   å=É@   å=Ê@   å=Ë@   å=Ì@   å=Í@   å=Î@   å=Ï@   å=Ð@   å=Ñ@   å=Ò@   å=Ó@   å=Ô@   å=Õ@   å=Ö@   å=×@   å=Ø@   å=Ù@   å=Ú@   å=Û@   å=Ü@   å=Ý@   å=Þ@   å=ß@   å=à@   å=á@   å=â@   å=ã@   å=ä@   å=å@   å=æ@   å=ç@   å=è@   å=é              ò@   å=ë@   å=ì@   å=í@   å=î@   å=ï@   å=ð@   å=ñ@   å=ò@   å=ó@   å=ô@   å=õ@   å=ö@   å=÷@   å=ø@   å=ù@   å=ú@   å=û@   å=üA   å>A   å>A   å>A   å> A   å>!A   å>"A   å>#A   å>$A   å>%A   å>&A   å>'A   å>(A   å>)A   å>*A   å>+A   å>,A   å>-A   å>.A   å>/A   å>0A   å>1A   å>2A   å>3A   å>4A   å>5A   å>6A   å>7A   å>8A   å>9A   å>:A   å>;A   å><A   å>=A   å>>A   å>?A   å>@A   å>AA   å>BA   å>CA   å>DA   å>EA   å>FA   å>GA   å>HA   å>IA   å>JA   å?ëA   å?ìA   å?íA   å?îA   å?ïA   å?ðA   å?ñA   å?òA   å?óA   å?ôA   å?õA   å?öB   å>KB   å>LB   å>MB   å>NB   å>OB   å>PB   å>QB   å>RB   å>SB   å>TB   å>UB   å>VB   å>WB   å>XB   å>YB   å>ZB   å>[B   å>\B   å>]B   å>^B   å>_B   å>`B   å>aB   å>bB   å>cB   å>dB   å>eB   å>fB   å>gB   å>hB   å>iB   å>jB   å>kB   å>lB   å>mB   å>n              òB   å>pB   å>qB   å>rB   å>sB   å>tB   å>uB   å>vB   å>wB   å>xB   å>yB   å>zB   å>{B   å>|B   å>}B   å>~B   å>B   å>€B   å>B   å>‚B   å>ƒB   å>„B   å>…B   å>†B   å>‡B   å>ˆB   å>‰B   å>ŠB   å>‹B   å>ŒB   å>B   å>ŽB   å>B   å>B   å>‘B   å>’B   å>“B   å>”B   å>•B   å>–B   å>—B   å>˜B   å>™B   å>šB   å>›B   å>œB   å>B   å>žB   å>ŸB   å> B   å>¡B   å>¢B   å>£B   å>¤B   å>¥B


----------



## Mike Connelly (Sep 7, 2010)

There are definitely some people who notice the film scores, and remember the themes.

I can see the argument that memorable themes aren't necessary...but at the very least, why not at least have a memorable theme in the end titles music (and opening titles as well, if the film has any)? If nothing else, use those one or two spots for something that can stand on its own instead of just being atmospheric.


----------



## P.T. (Sep 7, 2010)

It's one of the reasons that I have lost a fair amount of interest in music.
Very few people seem to actually appreciate good music.
The potential audience is satisfied with simplistic nonsense of the type that makes me prefer silence rather than music if it is going to be music of that sort.

Musical tastes have degenerated far too much.


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 7, 2010)

poseur @ Tue Sep 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Current 'atmospheric' scoring, as amazing and talented as its purveyors are, seems like musical wallpaper and glue to me. I know that's heretical in the current climate, and god knows I'd TAKE THE GIG...but my fonder wish would be to create anachronistic music that moves me.
> ...



Thank you for responding and posting your work. I enjoyed listening.

If you'd like my response to all of your questions or opinions re/ your work(a fair undertaking!) I'd be pleased to share-please PM me.


----------



## David Story (Sep 7, 2010)




----------



## David Story (Sep 7, 2010)

> here are a few cues from films in which,
> in my own way,
> i (naturally, unforcibly) attempted to marry my own ideas vis à vis "melody" to "atmosphere":



Poseur, thank you for these, beautiful. "cinematic pastoral melody", if you will.
Can you pm me with the guitarist's info? 



> the more minimal one, feels almost more influential, more essentially part of the picture.


+1 The subtle string line bridges the sequence together. Sets the tone well.
The action cue sounds like it's from a more heroic picture, though that's a matter of taste.

A memorable theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Za7ggq ... re=related


----------



## poseur (Sep 8, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 07 said:


> Thank you for responding and posting your work. I enjoyed listening.


you're certainly welcome to those slices of my music.



NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 07 said:


> If you'd like my response to all of your questions or opinions re/ your work(a fair undertaking!) I'd be pleased to share-please PM me.


for clarity's sake, i wasn't posting those cues
--- of a limited number of idiomatic/stylistic parallels, to a purpose (i thought) ---
in order to garner either praise or criticism, here,
but only to illustrate fitting personal examples of my lifelong pursuit
of an organic, studious incorporation of (at least) my perspective on "filmic atmosphere" into my own work.
this, because i'm a vi-participant, and a regularly working film-composer
on fairly (and, sometimes very) commercial projects, many of them "successful" enough.....
and,
as i'm still giving more weight & trust to my own musical voice than to whatever-the-current-temp-addictions may be & am intentionally not "copping" other composers' works,
"following my musical heart", as it were,
i feel that some display of direct, personal culpability for one's opinions kinda *rawks*.

like my music, or not?
naturally, that's totally your (or, anyone else's) call:
tutto bené! it's all good.
i've attracted enough criticism & praise, awards & penalties in my musical & filmic life
to not be diverted too much by either of 'em,
nor swayed too much from the original intent of my pathways
--- "organic incorporation" of everything i know & feel, vis à vis musics & sound, &
critical distillation of same, a rudimentary ethos of "considered inclusion" --- 
which even so still continue to broaden, grow & become distilled _just_ enough for me.
not said lightly:
some brutal & certainly assiduous (not pointless, nor simply demeaning) self-criticism
is built into my day, as far as the work is concerned.

otoh, really:
i would love to hear your responses to my questions within the thread,
rather than via PM.....
if that includes your desire to address my few examples, well:
of course! feel free to do so.
this is the internet, right? and a forum for discussion?

and, i gotta repeat:
my questions to you were not meant to be insulting;
i hope this isn't viewed as "calling you out", or some such puerile crap.
some of what you've brought forward, here
--- especially a few of the points which obviously appeared inconsistent or auto-negating to me,
as well as seeming to be much more "the vi-norm" than in any way "heretical" ---
really piqued my interest;
at minimum,
in direct regards to our shared, social (or, more coldly, "sociological") planes.
dude.


anyways,
i haven't found the concept of "study hall" to exist anywhere in my life,
whatever that might mean.

d


----------



## poseur (Sep 8, 2010)

maybe i distracted this thread, too much.

but, to clarify some of my original response:

who is this proverbial "we", here?
those at vi?
all film-composers, everywhere?

i still can't make sense of this;
we are not a club, really, of uniform individuals..... thankfully, imo,
since the job seems to include that it is each individual's responsibility
to bring their own music, their own perspective & understanding to the table.

in that?
some folks' music will become more broadly memorable to some people than to others;
some to more people, some to less.
that's what happens.
has always happened, afaict.

if the concern is to make the music more accessible, somehow,
only the individual composer can alter his or her musical output in this way,
at his or her own discretion,
hopefully in direct regards to the needs of the film in its entirety,
and in regards to the needs of the principals involved.
no "we" can help, there.

d


----------



## José Herring (Sep 8, 2010)

ajcmuso @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> I just came back from a weekend away with a couple of mates. Both of these friends are hobby musicians/music enthusiasts. As always we discuss music we like etc...we got on to the dreaded topic of film music when I subtlety tried to educate them a bit by playing them some film stuff. I was surprised when they both said they don't pay attention to the music in films (unless it a song score). Now, for your average Joe that's perfectly understandable - but what struck me is that these guys are music lovers and capable musicians and I was quite taken back to hear that they couldn't name a composer or hum a theme. I played them one of my pieces and they replied with, 'yes well that's all very clever and all but no-one really cares about film music' (or music of that style)...I admit, even though it was not their intention and they are good friends of mine, I would be lying if I said I wasn't angry (even a little hurt) by their ignorance. For a minute I was thinking, 'man if my muso friends don't even care than why should I even bother!'...I wasn't looking for praise or a medal of superiority, just recognition for our love and craft. I got over it quickly of course but it did get me thinking...
> 
> ...maybe it's just an Aussie thing...is it a similar situation for you guys in the States and Europe??



Get new friends. Those who appreciate what you do.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Sep 8, 2010)

josejherring @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> Get new friends. Those who appreciate what you do.



Oh dear... my WIFE doesn't appreciate what I do!


----------



## choc0thrax (Sep 8, 2010)

poseur @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> because i'm a vi-participant, and a regularly working film-composer
> on fairly (and, sometimes very) commercial projects, many of them "successful" enough.....



Heh, David, I'm pretty interested in your latest composing gig. That film I'm betting will be quite successful...and funny.


----------



## poseur (Sep 8, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> Heh, David, I'm pretty interested in your latest composing gig. That film I'm betting will be quite successful...and funny.



super-cool!
but, wait.....

if you're not talking about that other film that i left, a few months ago?
i hope not;
i have nothing remotely positive to say about _that_ phenomenally crappy situation,
except that it's outta my life,
and i had the rare opportunity to solidify one valuable friendship, in its wake.

..... and, by "wake", i mean that event which precedes funereal proceedings.
ha!
ti-ke-ty-boom.
/\~O 

if yer talking about wf's picture?

dude; i really like it, even given the harsh realities of its indie
"we truly have no resources, but gotta do this well, anyways" kinda nature.

i can say that i don't find it soooo funny, though.....
not really a comedy, per sé, though it toodles along nearly lightheartedly for a while,
painting the broadstrokes of the protagonist's picture, or framing it.

i'm not sure it's even a "dramedy", at a certain point --- but certainly very heartfelt,
all the way 'round, for sure,
and very effective, for me & at least a few other (¿jaded?) folks.

it's a good film; i still dig it.

while i think it might play very mildly long-in-the-tooth,
the story & characters still achieved so much within it, imo.

a key moment i'd experienced,
in my (all-important, to me) virgin viewing of the film occured,
when at a certain point in the story, i quite suddenly realised that i'd actually & truly forgotten
that wf was the actor playing the main character,
which forgetfulness was def brought on by my having-become-absorbed
in actually feeling the depth of the result of his character's long-term actions in life.

of course, i'm also a known space-case,
& a willing sucker for emotional material that resonates at all w/elements of my own life.

i may post some clips of the score, possibly in a few days' time.

so --- we talking about the same film?
you gonna see it at TFF?
i think it's being "featured", there.

d


----------



## choc0thrax (Sep 8, 2010)

poseur @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> choc0thrax @ Wed Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Heh, David, I'm pretty interested in your latest composing gig. That film I'm betting will be quite successful...and funny.
> ...



Yeah, talking about the WF film. I actually read a tiny bit of the script a while back but then it vanished from my house(I blame the cleaning lady for throwing it out).

From your description I'm actually even more interested in it now. Doubt I'll see it at TIFF though. Mainly going there to see a friend's film and then get the hell out of there since Toronto sucks.


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 8, 2010)

Okaythen. It wouldn't be my choice, and I wonder if your feelings aren't a bit more contentious in this matter than you're expressing, but ...ok. I shall respond.

Caveat- I am NOT in any way primarily a film composer, as you obvioulsy are. I'm someone who worked 25 years in commercials as a songwriter and scorer, and now am mainly a jack-of-all trades writer for hire. My personal focus is songwriting in disparate genres, some early 50's ballads, some folk, some rock, blah blah. Not being a shrinking violet, I'll pos some of my work here, so you have some context of what I do in return.

Three ballads, one '50's, two more modern...

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/it-was-only-you-ballad/ (http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/it ... ou-ballad/)

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/im-coming-home/

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/watch-over-me/

A folk piece:

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/551/

scoring-two ambient pieces:

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/am ... ce-of-god/

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/ambient-ad-astra/

jazz sampled big band:

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2010/di ... -big-band/

Eh. Enough. Listen to small portions. It saves time (smile).This way, if you decide my stuff sucks, you can skip the next post.



All of this to say, if you're expecting critique or opinions from a peer, well, not the case. I've written music for 5 or 6 short films, 6 works for modern dance (one of those for a world renowned dance company), all of them excruciatingly long, performed at major venues in NYC and subsequently in over 40 countries. That's the bulk of my 'artistic' work-the rest have been purely for filthy lucre, including years on the road as a backup musician.


----------



## poseur (Sep 8, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> Okaythen. It wouldn't be my choice, and I wonder if your feelings aren't a bit more contentious in this matter than you're expressing, but ...ok. I shall respond.


no, i never said i wasn't contentious;
i certainly can be that: no doubt.
i meant only to call some of your _ideas_ into contention;
i'm no good as an absolutist judge of anything, except for my own purposes.....
and, well, even then 
--- like a whole lotta other folks roaming the planet --- 
clearly, i can fall way short & fail.



NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> Caveat- I am NOT in any way primarily a film composer, as you obvioulsy are.


no, i am not that --- though film-scoring is my primary focus,
i still do many, many other musically-oriented things;
to some degree, i seem to need that.
still record my own music, record w/others, mix for others, some music technology consulting,
perform "live" and usually commit, these days, to at least one short (2-4wk) tour per year.

but, yeah --- i'm focussed on scoring;
i'm committed to i.

it does explain some of the differences in our perspectives, maybe;
i always (apparently, wrongly) presume that most vi-'ers are working regularly in film,
since there's so much chat about it,
but especially so in a thread w/the word "we....." in its title.
in my case, i can become a bit contentious when talking about "we" or "i" becomes what seems more like remoted,
broadband internet opinionising vis à vis what is functionally _other peoples' work-_related issues:
it's not a question of a lack of respect, at all, for those who don't do whatever is the work-in-question;
just that i can't guess the context from which criticism arrives,
even though it all may be of value,
context does help me in weighing in on strangers' perspectives.
and in this, too, i fail:
hell, i'm just another mostly anonymous keyboard, here.....
..... though i do, from time-to-time, post the odd selections from my work.

anyways, i enjoyed taking a tour of selections of your music.

and, i do think that some of my questions, way above, might remain worth answering,
for the sake (at least) of enlivening another discussion, here.
but, that's me; i would say that, wouldn't i?

d


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 8, 2010)

poseur @ Tue Sep 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Current 'atmospheric' scoring, as amazing and talented as its purveyors are, seems like musical wallpaper and glue to me. I know that's heretical in the current climate, and god knows I'd TAKE THE GIG...but my fonder wish would be to create anachronistic music that moves me.
> ...



All of your music is well done, and to re-iterate, lovely.

Much of is has a 'sound' to it. Do you consider your tastes very electic? Mine are all over the map.


----------



## poseur (Sep 8, 2010)

thanks, larry.
yes, i most certainly do consider myself to be musically eclectic;
both in my tastes, and very much so in my actual body-of-work.

i don't wear eclecticism much like a badge, though,
since within the context of my music, i've (¿accidentally?) bent so much 
of what i learn to my own devise. 
even in my most commercial of works, i'd say.

d


----------



## mjc (Sep 8, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Sep 09 said:


> Get new friends. Those who appreciate what you do.



HAHA! I definitely felt like doing that when it happened :lol:


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 8, 2010)

poseur @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> thanks, larry.
> yes, i most certainly do consider myself to be musically eclectic;
> both in my tastes, and very much so in my actual body-of-work.
> 
> ...



d...Did I answer your queries to your satisfaction (I hope)?


----------



## poseur (Sep 8, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> poseur @ Wed Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > thanks, larry.
> ...


yeah, thanks!
my eyeballs are now spinning-in-circles.....
probably due to 3hrs sleep last night, from midnight until 3am.
dazed, crazed & out-of-phase.

d


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 8, 2010)

I rent my studio from 7 pm to 7am. I am Drakul!

Off to work for me.


----------



## Zei (Sep 8, 2010)

ajcmuso @ Sun Sep 05 said:


> I just came back from a weekend away with a couple of mates. Both of these friends are hobby musicians/music enthusiasts. As always we discuss music we like etc...we got on to the dreaded topic of film music when I subtlety tried to educate them a bit by playing them some film stuff. I was surprised when they both said they don't pay attention to the music in films (unless it a song score). Now, for your average Joe that's perfectly understandable - but what struck me is that these guys are music lovers and capable musicians and I was quite taken back to hear that they couldn't name a composer or hum a theme. I played them one of my pieces and they replied with, 'yes well that's all very clever and all but no-one really cares about film music' (or music of that style)...I admit, even though it was not their intention and they are good friends of mine, I would be lying if I said I wasn't angry (even a little hurt) by their ignorance. For a minute I was thinking, 'man if my muso friends don't even care than why should I even bother!'...I wasn't looking for praise or a medal of superiority, just recognition for our love and craft. I got over it quickly of course but it did get me thinking...
> 
> ...maybe it's just an Aussie thing...is it a similar situation for you guys in the States and Europe??


To respond to the original question...

I've learned through lots of showing family and friends my music (disclaimer: I am in NO WAY capable enough/ready to compose for a film or anything of that nature... still a Senior in HS) that most people don't care about "background noise" until it's gone. They also don't care/hear complexity in the same way we do. When I was learning to sweep pick on my guitar, I messed up HORRIBLE only to look up and see my mom watching me... she said it was really good and sounded nice. I was stunned.

If you were to play a movie for the average joe, and then ask them what they thought of the music in the movie, they'd reply with "What..?". Replay the movie WITHOUT the music, and all of a sudden it's a different movie. That's a movie composers job (in my uneducated mind). To establish a mood without being overly assertive/distracting.

I also have plenty of friends who don't particularly care about film music, but are musicians themselves. Film Music has it's own niche, and, by itself, it won't appeal to as much people as "normal" music.

I reiterate, this is just my uneducated, and possibly naive view.


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 8, 2010)

Zei @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> ajcmuso @ Sun Sep 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I just came back from a weekend away with a couple of mates. Both of these friends are hobby musicians/music enthusiasts. As always we discuss music we like etc...we got on to the dreaded topic of film music when I subtlety tried to educate them a bit by playing them some film stuff. I was surprised when they both said they don't pay attention to the music in films (unless it a song score). Now, for your average Joe that's perfectly understandable - but what struck me is that these guys are music lovers and capable musicians and I was quite taken back to hear that they couldn't name a composer or hum a theme. I played them one of my pieces and they replied with, 'yes well that's all very clever and all but no-one really cares about film music' (or music of that style)...I admit, even though it was not their intention and they are good friends of mine, I would be lying if I said I wasn't angry (even a little hurt) by their ignorance. For a minute I was thinking, 'man if my muso friends don't even care than why should I even bother!'...I wasn't looking for praise or a medal of superiority, just recognition for our love and craft. I got over it quickly of course but it did get me thinking...
> ...



Very well put and thought out, especially from a high school senior.
Much more to the point than my OT ramblings as well, and I agree with your premises.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## Zei (Sep 8, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> Zei @ Wed Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > To respond to the original question...
> ...


Haha thanks man. I spend a lot of time trying to break that "especially from a X Y" thing. It's always bothered me, cause I've gotten it a lot.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Sep 8, 2010)

Yeah, excellent post Zei - completely agree! I think we're no different to the other disciplines in movies. Most people have no comment on the editing, lighting or sound design either, but gadzooks they make the film what it is. Often, noticing can be bad..,


----------



## Dan Mott (Sep 11, 2010)

Don't get new friends, just make more music and try and impress them within the genre you do. Once you impress those who aren't into your genre as much, then I think you will be getting somewhere.

Doesn't matter what music it is, if it sounds good, then it sounds good. It will pretty much sound good to anyone. If I'm not mistaken, I would say that your friends probably didn't like the stuff you showed them because well...... they didn't like the sound of it and they got bored. One note though. Don't bother showing people who have no taste in good music, not to mention stuck in one or two genres.

This is the reason I'm doing film music, structured like a pop song of some sort, with lyrics. I personally like an actuall song better in some cases. I really like vocals in a song, which is why I probably listen to more songs that have vocals than film. I think vocals IMO, take music just that little step further by telling more of a story and bringing more emotion to the table in some cases.

Some of my favourite songs are film music, but as I said, if it's got vocals and a nice singer, then I'll find it more memorable.


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 12, 2010)

Zei @ Wed Sep 08 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Zei @ Wed Sep 08 said:
> ...



Dude, umm...you set it up. 'I'm only a high school senior, maybe I'm naive', etc.
If you're trying to break out of it, leave your age/experience/creds/lack of out of the mix and just say your piece. My .02.


----------

