# Playing without a metronome... using sequencer like tape recorder.



## Ed (Apr 26, 2010)

The thing I notice most when scoring a film is that tempo rubato is especially important in making sure you get an emotional performance that "fits" the scene. In scenes with a rhythmic element I usually have it fit exactly with the click track like in an action scene.

However in some scenes its just easier to turn the click off play to the scene and make your playing faster or slower when the mood takes you (like some small romanticish scene or some minimal thing). The problem is that the click is completely off since you essentially just used the sequencer like a tape recorder. Yes you could set up bar lines but the tempo track is still buggered and had you actually set it up before hand it would be really complex and you'd never remember what you did and why. 

I guess you could play it, record it to audio then work out the exact tempo afterwards then try and replay it but that just sounds super annoying.

I don't really care about it in my case right now since no real instruments are being used in this project so as long as it works who the hell cares, right? But for future reference how do others deal with this? I'm sure I'm not the only one to have this problem. I know some people who just score everything in by hand either in a notation program or with the mouse in the matrix edit, however for those that like to play stuff in I wonder how you work with this?


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## Studio E (Apr 26, 2010)

I know what you mean Ed. I was a piano/keyboard player long before I got into sequencing and recording for film. I've never had to print scores for live instruments so it hasnt officially become a serious problem but I have thought about it many times. I also have a hard time following an extremely slow tempo with a click. Like where you are wanting to leave a lot of space between notes and whatnot. I'm afraid that the answer might be to play it in naturally and then go back to fix the notation so that it makes sense to others. I dont know really. I'd really like to hear from someone that has an idea on this.


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2010)

This is one of the best things about Digital Performer. It allows you to play against picture with no click, then slide barlines and tempos just where you want without altering what you played at all. 

This is especially useful, I find, if I'm going to use a sampled piano and will have live strings; that way the live players get normal-looking notation even though the piano part is played with a good deal of rubato.

In fact, that's what I'm doing today, coincidentally.


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## Orchus (Apr 26, 2010)

I've been thinking about this too, since playing with a click makes music sound static and not very human.. I work in Logic, and I play a piece without click first, afterwards you tap along with it on another MIDI track, and use something called reclock, this adjusts tempo according to the MIDI-notes u tapped... 

But anyhow a 'beat-detector' of some kind would be nice. And when you have to play along with the new tempo it can be hard sometimes... Maybe a virtual conductor would be a nice idea for future software.


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## lux (Apr 27, 2010)

i do that all the times on passionate/rubato sections, nothing beats doing it by hand. Its very difficult but leads to amazing results. I tend to change tempos only in order to fit the click again when the section ends.

Main issue is when you need to print or perform live. But probably doing an additional tempo based version just for printing/sharing is not much of an issue when there's the need. After all once you made the parts, playing again at tempo is just a matter of minutes.


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## Orchus (Apr 27, 2010)

But how do you do it when you only use digital orchestration, with no click at all, but you do have several different parts in the same (rubato) tempo? Do you play along with the first part you played?


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## lux (Apr 27, 2010)

Orchus @ Tue Apr 27 said:


> But how do you do it when you only use digital orchestration, with no click at all, but you do have several different parts in the same (rubato) tempo? Do you play along with the first part you played?



well personally i identify a "leader" instrument for each subsection, a carrier, usually the one who draws the main and most passionate part and sequence it as a solo. So basically i have the full section goin on as alternance of solos. When it sounds coherent to me then i let other parts follow the dynamics the leader instrument has. I tend to not use a piano reference track as the hard attack from piano usually creates me issues on smoother parts. At very slow tempos small differences between instruments' attack times create a pretty "human" result which i like to hear.

At the very end i open piano-roll and tweak slightly the parts to compact the performance and to avoid excessive sloppyness.

Thats of course just my personal method. And by default i tend to avoid my own methods very often


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## Ashermusic (Apr 27, 2010)

Orchus @ Mon Apr 26 said:


> I've been thinking about this too, since playing with a click makes music sound static and not very human.. I work in Logic, and I play a piece without click first, afterwards you tap along with it on another MIDI track, and use something called reclock, this adjusts tempo according to the MIDI-notes u tapped...
> 
> But anyhow a 'beat-detector' of some kind would be nice. And when you have to play along with the new tempo it can be hard sometimes... Maybe a virtual conductor would be a nice idea for future software.



Well that is how most of us USED to do it in Logic but with the Beat Mapping global track it is now much simpler.


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## Orchus (Apr 27, 2010)

Beat Mapping global track?
I believe I've missed something very important....


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## jlb (Apr 27, 2010)

I have this problem on Logic all the time, esp with piano parts. Start it recording with the metronome going, then when you listen back it is mechanical sounding. Would also appreciate any info on Beat Mapping global track, or any other ways people get around this problem.

Many Thanks

jlb


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## Ashermusic (Apr 27, 2010)

jlb @ Tue Apr 27 said:


> I have this problem on Logic all the time, esp with piano parts. Start it recording with the metronome going, then when you listen back it is mechanical sounding. Would also appreciate any info on Beat Mapping global track, or any other ways people get around this problem.
> 
> Many Thanks
> 
> jlb



The manual actually explains this pretty well and David Dvorin walks you through the process in the Apple Pro Training Series book, "Logic Pro 9 Advanced Music Production."


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## veetguitar (May 6, 2010)

You can do that in Cubase also.
-Tap your "rubato" tempo on the midi keyboard (could be quarter notes)
- go to midi/functions/merge tempo from tapping
This create the tempo map for you.
I found this extremely useful. :lol:


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## raweber (May 13, 2010)

Same with Sonar - and this is how I do most of my pieces. I play the basic part in with piano or lead instrument on wind synth in free time, and then either set measures manually or use the "Fit Improvisation" function to get the tempos automatically. This one feature is the reason I upgraded from Sonar Home Studio to full Sonar!


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## Ed (May 13, 2010)

So apparently Cubase sucks for this while Logic and Sonar and DP provide solutions. Im still on SX3 hoping to upgrade soon so this is annoying to hear...

RUBBISH.

ps: veetguitar that still sounds annoying, what if I want to change my mind while playing?


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## veetguitar (May 14, 2010)

Hmm! dont see what I am missing in Cubase. There is other stuff like the time warp tool. But ok, to play something and let Cubase interpret your rendition seems not possible. Sibelius has it but I have a slight doubt that such a feature will work without fail.....


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## Ed (May 14, 2010)

veetguitar @ Fri May 14 said:


> Hmm! dont see what I am missing in Cubase. There is other stuff like the time warp tool. But ok, to play something and let Cubase interpret your rendition seems not possible.



Just answered your own question :D

I want to be able to do what Digital Performer apparently does. (read John G's post) I may be able to slide bar lines in Cubase, but you cant fix the tempo afterwards or it will change whatever you played... hence... the problem.


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## veetguitar (May 14, 2010)

But you can change the midi track from "musical" to "time" mode. Then there wouldnt be a problem a problem in adjusting the bpms to the music. Anyway, enough of this.... :wink:


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