# Looking for a music IT guy



## nicolasjlaget (Nov 6, 2021)

I am tired of playing IT guy. I need someone to take a deep look at my systems and either do, or tell me exactly what to do, to stop experiencing latency, spinballs, lost settings, routing issues, dropped samples, and other glitches.

These people exist right? I see them hanging out on the side of every successful composer in every interview I read.

Any thoughts?


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## Bollen (Nov 6, 2021)

Well usually there are specialist shops that deal with this. Hard to help much without physical access to the gear, though I think many of us could still help a bit...


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 6, 2021)

They exist, but it's weekend so they're either:

-Patching systems
-Developing software
-Having an actual life *

*least likely


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## Alchemedia (Nov 6, 2021)

Why not list your specs?


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## JohnG (Nov 6, 2021)

nicolasjlaget said:


> I am tired of playing IT guy.


Hello Nicolas, 

I have worked with a guy here who is part of audio perception.com http://audioperception.com/aboutmenu/about-us

It's expensive but worth it if you want to get things diagnosed and sorted out. Like many people, I have a multi-computer setup, some outboard gear, innumerable bits of software, VE Pro -- all that.

If you have a much simpler setup this is probably overkill, but if you have the money, so what? Your time is worth something too.

Kind regards,

John


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Nov 6, 2021)

I'd be happy to take a look at your system if you'd like. At this point I've set up and troubleshooted pretty much everything from simple laptop systems to large multi-computer systems.


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## AcousTech (Nov 6, 2021)

Unlike many here, I’m actually an IT guy first, music guy second. IT is how I pay for my shoes. Music is how I play. I‘d be willing to take a look, too, but Gerhard is likely a better place to start.


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## Nico5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Why not list your specs?


My sleuthing is guessing: Cubase on MacOS




p.s. I also approve of OP's nickname


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## nicolasjlaget (Nov 7, 2021)

I freaking love VI Control. Thank you all very much for responding!


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## darkogav (Nov 7, 2021)

It sounds like maybe you want to find a store that does custom desktop PC builds for composers. I There are specialist stores that put together PC builds with parts that they have tested with parts that they know will have low latency. I am sure there is one in your city. Usually the stores that sell synths and modular synths will also have a realtionship with computer specialists. The PC's will be really quiet and have really low latency. Example below.



https://www.scan.co.uk/3xs/custom/daw-digital-audio-workstation-pcs/workstations


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## nicolasjlaget (Nov 7, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> My sleuthing is guessing: Cubase on MacOS
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I run Cubase and Nuendo (both 11) on an iMac Pro. (32 GB ram, 8 cores)
Also run VE Pro 7 on a Win 10 machine. 2 x Intel Xeon 4 core 3.2 Ghz. 96 GB ram.

Everything runs on a network connected by a Synology Router.
Static IPs for all machines.


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## darkogav (Nov 7, 2021)

nicolasjlaget said:


> I run Cubase and Nuendo (both 11) on an iMac Pro. (32 GB ram, 8 cores)
> Also run VE Pro 7 on a Win 10 machine. 2 x Intel Xeon 4 core 3.2 Ghz. 96 GB ram.
> 
> *Everything runs on a network connected by a Synology Router.*
> Static IPs for all machines.


There is probably your bottle neck. is it all 10G all the way through? switches and cards?


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## AcousTech (Nov 8, 2021)

A bit further on Darkogav's point:

When you are entirely in-the-box, whereby that means one and only one box, then the critical capabilities(generally speaking here - there are even more) are:

CPU(cores, speed, etc.)
RAM(quantity & speed)
Storage type(hard drive vs. fusion/hybrid drive vs. solid-state hard drive)
Storage speed(e.g., for a hard drive what's the rotational speed of the disk? 7,200 rpm vs. 10,000 rpm, etc.)
Storage connection(IDE, SATA - including version, NVMe, etc.)

But as soon as you at ANY other system(VE Pro 7, in your case), which by definition is over the network, then the network itself becomes a candidate for tuning, too. At which point these issues emerge:

Network topology type(wired vs. wireless ethernet <- this latter should be avoided)
Network Interface Card(NIC) speed
Network duplex settings(full vs. half)
Network cabling(CAT5, CAT5e, CAT6, etc. as not all cables are rated for all speeds)
Network interconnections(switches, routers, firewalls, etc.)
Network packet size(MTU/Jumbo Packets, etc.)

Is that it? If I can check all of these boxes will I be done? Unfortunately not. There is even more to investigate/tune/tweak. However, most people stop once their current pain point is resolved. They don't usually keep optimizing ad infinitum. 

Hopefully this points you in the right direction!


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## gsilbers (Nov 8, 2021)

nicolasjlaget said:


> I run Cubase and Nuendo (both 11) on an iMac Pro. (32 GB ram, 8 cores)
> Also run VE Pro 7 on a Win 10 machine. 2 x Intel Xeon 4 core 3.2 Ghz. 96 GB ram.
> 
> Everything runs on a network connected by a Synology Router.
> Static IPs for all machines.



Yep, for me was the same. Mac and pc has this annoying issue where it seems everyone on the world can network them just fine except you.
I swear I could restart 4 different times and have 4 different wierd error setups and restart once more and everything would work fine.

I now have it connected directly with a cat6 cable. (Or is it cat5?), not sure. It’s an Ethernet cable that u can plug directly between two computer and they can see each other w/o anything in between.

Static ip w one number apart. There’s plenty of those posts around here. Not lately though but older posts might have all this info.

But I feel u man, it’s annoying as hell.


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## AcousTech (Nov 8, 2021)

Yeah, I feel like this sensation/response/feeling is predicated on a popular tech myth that things "Just work". Very, very little in IT truly just works. Things that appear to just work do so because people have sweat through every detail about what can go wrong, how it goes wrong, and how to prevent it. Such that the end user experience is that it generally gets at least close to "it just works". 

However, once you understand all of what's involved you begin to see behind the curtain, so to speak. Networking is very much like that. One network cable is NOT necessarily the same as any other network cable even though they may look the same. Inside there are 8 rather small copper wires. The order those are inserted into the connectors on each end will dictate many things. The number of twists in that wire per foot of cable will also determine things like supported speeds for connectivity. The actual connectors themselves are even versioned for similar reasons. And I haven't even begun to delve into how different Operating Systems from different vendors implement support for different networking protocols. 

All of which is to say this:

1. You aren't nuts for wishing it did just work.
2. Unfortunately our insatiable appetite for more/better/faster means that there are now a great many possible options each of which appear in direct opposition to allowing things to "just work".
3. On the upside this allows tech people to stay employed.


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## darkogav (Nov 8, 2021)

If there is no routing involved and everything is set up manual ip's, it should work fine. There are some tweaks you can do with SMB .. but it's probably going to be excerisize is futility as your application expects the data to be connected via local disk.

There is fiber, but its really expensive when you add up the cost of optical cables, adapters/converters, switches e.t.c. I would just buy a new machine with a chassis that can accommodate the storage you need. I would personally just get rid of the network layer completely, and just use it for archives and backups, if possible.

But its possible some of the graphics arts people know things that are specific to the industry. I work mostly on large statistical data, not my area. I recall seeing a demo of the systems they use for animation, they must have some best practices white papers online of how they setup those work environments.

https://www.hp.com/ca-en/campaigns/workstations/media-entertainment-animation.html


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## AcousTech (Nov 8, 2021)

@nicolasjlaget, 

So, have we helped you, or hampered you with your request?


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## dzilizzi (Nov 8, 2021)

AcousTech said:


> Yeah, I feel like this sensation/response/feeling is predicated on a popular tech myth that things "Just work". Very, very little in IT truly just works. Things that appear to just work do so because people have sweat through every detail about what can go wrong, how it goes wrong, and how to prevent it. Such that the end user experience is that it generally gets at least close to "it just works".
> 
> However, once you understand all of what's involved you begin to see behind the curtain, so to speak. Networking is very much like that. One network cable is NOT necessarily the same as any other network cable even though they may look the same. Inside there are 8 rather small copper wires. The order those are inserted into the connectors on each end will dictate many things. The number of twists in that wire per foot of cable will also determine things like supported speeds for connectivity. The actual connectors themselves are even versioned for similar reasons. And I haven't even begun to delve into how different Operating Systems from different vendors implement support for different networking protocols.
> 
> ...


What always gets me is that it will work fine one day and freeze the next with no obvious change to the system. I mean, it is all ones and zeros, why can't it be consistent?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 8, 2021)

nicolasjlaget said:


> I run Cubase and Nuendo (both 11) on an iMac Pro. (32 GB ram, 8 cores)
> Also run VE Pro 7 on a Win 10 machine. 2 x Intel Xeon 4 core 3.2 Ghz. 96 GB ram.
> 
> Everything runs on a network connected by a Synology Router.
> Static IPs for all machines.


Are you just using the PC as a slave for sample libraries? If so, ditch the router and go straight across with the cable. VEPro will then handle the network.


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## JohnG (Nov 8, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> What always gets me is that it will work fine one day and freeze the next with no obvious change to the system. I mean, it is all ones and zeros, why can't it be consistent?


@Dewdman42 is sneaking in and changing stuff. Just to mess with you.


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## AcousTech (Nov 8, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> What always gets me is that it will work fine one day and freeze the next with no obvious change to the system. I mean, it is all ones and zeros, why can't it be consistent?


Ah, yes. The infamous "what changed?" question. Totally rational. The hard, but accurate answer is everyone's least favorite "it depends". Sometimes, but not all times, you may know what changed, because you instigated it. However, there can be times where you don't believe anything was changed, and yet things don't work. And yet the idea that nothing changes is not necessarily true. Just because you didn't do it, doesn't mean something didn't change. Patches might be set to apply automatically to the OS. That's a change. Patches may be applied to the VI itself. That's a change. The network devices may have patched and that's a change. Other devices might have come active on the wire, and that's change. There can technically be many changes happening all the time, and only a small subset ever reach our awareness. These are very complicated, multi-layer systems. In a lot of ways, it's amazing they are as stable as they are, ever!

Anyway, as maddening as it is, this is all human-made, and therefore can also be human-understood - assuming there is a human willing to put the required time in to understand it. Sometimes we have the appetite for that. Sometimes we don't.


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## darkogav (Nov 8, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Are you just using the PC as a slave for sample libraries? If so, ditch the router and go straight across with the cable. VEPro will then handle the network.


yes. you could do this. ^^ 

get a cross cable. set static ip's. enable jumbo frames in both adapters. turn off any hibernate or sleep on the adapters and see what happens.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 8, 2021)

hahah Sorry I can't offer much help here. You know where the word "bug" originated from? Back in the very early days of computing, circa 1940's, someone discovered that a moth had gotten trapped in one of the relay circuits and caused their "computer" to malfunction. It was literally a "bug".

Gremlins, bugs, etc..all terms used often by actual computer engineers when they can't (at least yet) figure out WTF is wrong with a system.

One of the reasons I use Mac for music is because I personally never had a good experience with PC's for this purpose. I know some people have had good experience, but on the PC the _right combination _of hardware can make all the difference between music stuff working and music stuff not working very well.

There are companies that sell PC's built specifically for audio applications and they have usually sorted all that out through trial and error to build some systems which will be known to work in certain combinations of hardware, and also correctly configured, etc. PC can work well in this regard, but who has time? Not me, so I just use Mac..... my MacPro just works.

To the OP, unfortunately there is no easy solution to offer someone like you, I have been in the same situation and I understand your frustration completely. Its probably not as simple as some IT guy magically tuning your system to work better either, unfortunately. They typically know how to get your network working so you can get your email.

One reason to avoid huge VePro farm is that you either need to have someone on your payroll that can IT the hell out of it...or you have to know all the stuff yourself and be ready to spend time doing so. These days its hardly necessary for most of us to be using a VePro farm..and this is one strong reason for why not.

For MS Windows, when I used to run it years ago, I used to reinstall Windows XP from scratch about once a year, because it would get all fouled up with god knows what drivers and little add on virus checkers or whatever...it would get slower and slower, the windows registry would get overstuffed with things, etc.. I would just wipe my drive and restore a ghost image fresh install once a year.. I never had to do that with Mac, FWIW, sorry I know that doesn't help you.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 8, 2021)

JohnG said:


> @Dewdman42 is sneaking in and changing stuff. Just to mess with you.


That figures......


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## Nico5 (Nov 8, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> I mean, it is all ones and zeros, why can't it be consistent?


Yes, it's all ones and zeros, but exactly which ones and zeros are occurring simultaneously, is a rather randomized thing in a single modern multi-tasking computer. And even more so in a network.

An interesting thing to note is, that Ethernet is effectively wired radio. As such it has overlapping signals, creating "collisions" that need to get sorted out by software/firmware (from error checking to automatic re-transmission).

Running Ethernet in duplex mode, eliminates some of the clashing of transmissions, since it creates two separate cable radio networks on a single cable: one for each direction of traffic. However, when there's more than one source device sending to the same target device (same direction, same cable), collisions can still occur.

So the total available throughput on an Ethernet network gets less and less, when there are more collisions and resulting re-transmissions.

And a bad or low quality cable may not produce total failure, but it will often just be able to handle less traffic than a good quality cable. So it's difficult to troubleshoot.

Therefore, the prior suggestions in this thread to simplify the network make sense. And/or raising the Ethernet capacity by moving to a 10Gbps network, but that may require every participating device to be upgraded, and that's not always cheap.

Troubleshooting and optimizing a high performance network with high performance devices ends up becoming more akin to troubleshooting and optimizing the human body. While still nowhere near the same level of complexity, I find it helpful (and humbling) to think of it more that way than a simple zero and one system.


p.s. And don't get me started on the problems created by lousy IT providers as well as lousy IT customers. Seems to me, the lousy one's outnumber the good one's by frightening percentages. But then again, that's the case in many areas of life.


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## AcousTech (Nov 10, 2021)

@nicolasjlaget -​
Where did you go? Did you get what you needed from us?


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## sinkd (Nov 10, 2021)

Try a new router (switch) first.


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## AcousTech (Nov 10, 2021)

Respectfully, please do not do that. It may be an unnecessary/unwarranted change and could just make matters worse. Best to fully understand the scope first before introducing new variables. Also, while it is possible to have a combined router/switch, they are two very different things and understanding each role(as well as whether or not both roles are being performed by the same box) is important to ensuring the desired outcome.


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## nicolasjlaget (Nov 16, 2021)

Yes. 10G. Too slow? 


darkogav said:


> There is probably your bottle neck. is it all 10G all the way through? switches and cards?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 16, 2021)

nicolasjlaget said:


> Yes. 10G. Too slow?


You’ll never benefit from more than that.


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