# Techniques for writing to Picture on StaffPad



## Jacob Moss

Certainly there was a day before DAWs where scores were written straight to manuscript paper, but StaffPad is somewhere between Manuscript paper and a Notation Software. It has been reported that StaffPad may eventually sync to video, but until then what techniques do you use to work with picture?

The ability to export and import tempo maps may be helpful in doing so.


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## jonathanparham

it seems the workaround may be here for now
importing tempos from midi

I think along with picture there'll need to be some kind of MTC or SMPTE as well.

I'm ready for it


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## Sean J

StaffPad handles video WAY better than Cubase.

In Cubase I used to adjust the tempo until the video lined up and listened to notes, dialog, FX, and it worked wonders. The first problem... film editor tweaks it, shifting everything. Everyone loved the music, despite my timing art being disjointed. Okay, people don't care as much about the mechanics as I do. It's about an experience. Lesson learned. Later on I tried a blind scoring attempt. I had someone else make hit points, describe what was happening. Crazy, I know... It was a... unique experience. BUT insanely valuable. 1) I learned more about how they view the story, the scene, the hit points, how well the music fit. I just learned more about how others see it. 2) I wrote better music. Less fitting, but better.

In StaffPad I've solved that with a hybrid of what I did in Cubase and the experiment. It's a revolutionary approach people like Goldsmith, Williams, and others have previously taken. It's called a Cue Sheet. Here's mine.  Okay, sorry for the sarcasm. There's a method to my madness though.

First, what I do:
1. Put in seconds I need
2. Put in the tempo that feels right

Then it tells me how many bars & beats to write, when music needs to change pace, etc. While it's been a tremendous learning opportunity to not be so dependent on software... that isn't my point. My point is that having relied on Cubase so long... I didn't want to just say what I do, but that I prefer it more than what I used to do. This isn't just some fluff where I self-justify a transition pain. We've all seen that. No, this is me genuinely preferring this approach more now that I've put in a bit more work.

What's more, I've heard "this is the best thing you've ever written" a few times, from a few people lately. StaffPad will likely get more film features. But I'm really happy I've taken the do-it-by-hand approach on cues (a fitting philosophy for StaffPad)


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## jonathanparham

scoredfilms said:


> What's more, I've heard "this is the best thing you've ever written" a few times, from a few people lately. StaffPad will likely get more film features. But I'm really happy I've taken the do-it-by-hand approach on cues (a fitting philosophy for StaffPad)


Thanks for sharing. Some clarification. The response to your music are you saying was written in StaffPad? All written in StaffPad or a pitch using StaffPad?


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## Sean J

jonathanparham said:


> The response to your music are you saying was written in StaffPad? All written in StaffPad or a pitch using StaffPad?



All written in StaffPad, including a couple pitches to avoid being typecast as the wrong composer.  It probably takes a minute per cue to add a length and tempo to a cue sheet. It took a week to get used to handwriting recognition. But DAW learning curves took longer and I write faster in SP than DAWs and other notation programs I own. So I hardly mind. I basically have a "who uses DAWs anymore" attitude... *but *I can see some minding this if seeing the video every second is how they work. I'd still suggest to force yourself to do a project without it. It's just worked out for me really well.


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## dcoscina

@scoredfilms you have just outlined what some of us oldies used to have to do before DAWs. I scored small films in the 90s and didn't have the benefit of SMPTE hardware to lock to picture. It was all taking timings down, hit points and then figuring out the math. The benefit was I worked in the realm of music without the distraction of video (remember our primary sense is vision first). And I had to provide a couple cues with very specific music events to match the narrative and never had an issue with syncing. I guess my math was pretty good... 

Gabriel Yared in a VSL interview says he does the same thing. Watches the movie, takes notes, really lets the imagery and story sink in, then he starts composing without picture. Working strictly in the realm of music is liberating and the way films were score for decades. Williams still does it that way in fact and his music is kinda good... 

Thanks for sharing this however. I think it's a good exercise to write without being chained to the picture. And who knows if SP will eventually include video import? Maybe, maybe not.


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## Dr.Quest

dcoscina said:


> @scoredfilms you have just outlined what some of us oldies used to have to do before DAWs. I scored small films in the 90s and didn't have the benefit of SMPTE hardware to lock to picture. It was all taking timings down, hit points and then figuring out the math. The benefit was I worked in the realm of music without the distraction of video (remember our primary sense is vision first). And I had to provide a couple cues with very specific music events to match the narrative and never had an issue with syncing. I guess my math was pretty good...
> 
> Gabriel Yared in a VSL interview says he does the same thing. Watches the movie, takes notes, really lets the imagery and story sink in, then he starts composing without picture. Working strictly in the realm of music is liberating and the way films were score for decades. Williams still does it that way in fact and his music is kinda good...
> 
> Thanks for sharing this however. I think it's a good exercise to write without being chained to the picture. And who knows if SP will eventually include video import? Maybe, maybe not.


I started by using paper and a stop watch and writing down times based on hits and window burn. I could always hit the mark.


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## Sean J

dcoscina said:


> ...remember our primary sense is vision first...



Speak for yourself! lol 

SP can, will, and should improve as much as possible. Ultimately, how much we improve ourselves and our music is what makes all the difference. Beethoven didn't have today's Bosendorfers to work with. I'd trade all the software in the world for a fraction of what he could do.


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## Sean J

dcoscina said:


> ...remember our primary sense is vision first...



Actually... when I was 2...

I told my mom: "don't sing you don't sound good"
She turned to my dad and said: "he just said I can't sing"
My dad said: "you really can't"

She opposed this "hobby" ever since, as have many. Sorry to derail the thread a bit, but I'm pretty sure I learned to tune out nonsense long before I learned to use my eyes.


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## stevebarden

If you’re an iPad user there is an app that will calculate the best tempo based on all your hit points (cue sheet) from a range of tempos. 








‎Film Scoring Tempo Finder


‎Tempo Finder aids the film composer in the process of selecting the proper tempo to score a cue in a film. By entering the timing notes (SMPTE values) for each hit point in a cue, Tempo Finder will search a range of tempos to select the optimal tempo for composing music for the cue. The logic...



apps.apple.com


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## dcoscina

stevebarden said:


> If you’re an iPad user there is an app that will calculate the best tempo based on all your hit points (cue sheet) from a range of tempos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‎Film Scoring Tempo Finder
> 
> 
> ‎Tempo Finder aids the film composer in the process of selecting the proper tempo to score a cue in a film. By entering the timing notes (SMPTE values) for each hit point in a cue, Tempo Finder will search a range of tempos to select the optimal tempo for composing music for the cue. The logic...
> 
> 
> 
> apps.apple.com


Dude that’s very cool


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## dcoscina

scoredfilms said:


> Speak for yourself! lol
> 
> SP can, will, and should improve as much as possible. Ultimately, how much we improve ourselves and our music is what makes all the difference. Beethoven didn't have today's Bosendorfers to work with. I'd trade all the software in the world for a fraction of what he could do.


Beautifully put sir! Totally agree. My day today was spent listening to Mahler’s 6 (Abaddo with CSO), Berg’s Three Pieces for Orchestra and a bunch of Ravel. I think being exposed to that level of writing helps inform my own music.


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## Farkle

scoredfilms said:


> All written in StaffPad, including a couple pitches to avoid being typecast as the wrong composer.  It probably takes a minute per cue to add a length and tempo to a cue sheet. It took a week to get used to handwriting recognition. But DAW learning curves took longer and I write faster in SP than DAWs and other notation programs I own. So I hardly mind. I basically have a "who uses DAWs anymore" attitude... *but *I can see some minding this if seeing the video every second is how they work. I'd still suggest to force yourself to do a project without it. It's just worked out for me really well.



My last two feature films (including this one) were timed out in the DAW, using some website I found that creates a click book, and then I walked away from the DAW with the hit points and timings, and composed 80% of the film cues away from the film, in Sibelius, in sketch format, with timings. I then went back into the Daw and inputted them into the score, using the timings and meter changes I had built in Sibelius.

Time Consuming? Maybe. But this last film, I wrote and mocked up 50 minutes of big orchestral music in 8 weeks, and had 42 out of 44 cues accepted first pass. I'll take that ratio. And, btw, I adopted this structure after learning how Jerry, James, Johnny, and (in television), Ron Jones and Dennis McCarthy wrote, and that's how they did it. I'd rather work on low budget films and write the way my idols did, than high budget ones, and be frustrated.

Then again, I'm a poor composer trapped in Philly, so don't mimic me if you want to succeed in LA... 

Mike


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## jonathanparham

Farkle said:


> Then again, I'm a poor composer trapped in Philly, so don't mimic me if you want to succeed in LA...
> 
> Mike


heh heh slick.


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## jonathanparham

scoredfilms said:


> All written in StaffPad, including a couple pitches to avoid being typecast as the wrong composer.  It probably takes a minute per cue to add a length and tempo to a cue sheet. It took a week to get used to handwriting recognition. But DAW learning curves took longer and I write faster in SP than DAWs and other notation programs I own. So I hardly mind. I basically have a "who uses DAWs anymore" attitude... *but *I can see some minding this if seeing the video every second is how they work. I'd still suggest to force yourself to do a project without it. It's just worked out for me really well.


Copy that. Thanks for the clarification. I created a tempo map in Pro Tools and sent it to StaffPad. But yes I can explore more.


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## dcoscina

Farkle said:


> My last two feature films (including this one) were timed out in the DAW, using some website I found that creates a click book, and then I walked away from the DAW with the hit points and timings, and composed 80% of the film cues away from the film, in Sibelius, in sketch format, with timings. I then went back into the Daw and inputted them into the score, using the timings and meter changes I had built in Sibelius.
> 
> Time Consuming? Maybe. But this last film, I wrote and mocked up 50 minutes of big orchestral music in 8 weeks, and had 42 out of 44 cues accepted first pass. I'll take that ratio. And, btw, I adopted this structure after learning how Jerry, James, Johnny, and (in television), Ron Jones and Dennis McCarthy wrote, and that's how they did it. I'd rather work on low budget films and write the way my idols did, than high budget ones, and be frustrated.
> 
> Then again, I'm a poor composer trapped in Philly, so don't mimic me if you want to succeed in LA...
> 
> Mike


Amen brother


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## Farkle

dcoscina said:


> Amen brother



High five, David! Here's to us dinosaurs!!


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## laurikoivisto

Farkle said:


> My last two feature films (including this one) were timed out in the DAW, using some website I found that creates a click book, and then I walked away from the DAW with the hit points and timings, and composed 80% of the film cues away from the film, in Sibelius, in sketch format, with timings. I then went back into the Daw and inputted them into the score, using the timings and meter changes I had built in Sibelius.



I know you wrote around the dialogue really well so did you mark all the timings when an actor spoke?


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## Farkle

laurikoivisto said:


> I know you wrote around the dialogue really well so did you mark all the timings when an actor spoke?



I did! I used Reaper's markers to line up all the actor speech timings, then exported them as a txt file, then added the most important ones into Sibelius, etc. For Some of the cues. For some, I just left them in Reaper, and I knew that "at bar 14, the + of 2, max says this".


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## laurikoivisto

oh wow! I do all the composing on sibelius with a video but it doesn't always stay in sync. But yeah, i'll try your way next time!


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## dcoscina

Farkle said:


> High five, David! Here's to us dinosaurs!!


haha. BTW- I like the quote from Bruce Lee in your signature. If you know martial arts, you will appreciate my avatar. #wadoryu


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## Farkle

dcoscina said:


> haha. BTW- I like the quote from Bruce Lee in your signature. If you know martial arts, you will appreciate my avatar. #wadoryu



Oh shit!! I see it now! It's a variation of the Wado Ryu logo! Very cool! 

Yeah, my other passion is martial arts. Went a strange route; trained in Jeet Kune Do Concepts and Filipino Martial Arts under the Inosanto Academy (one of his senior instructors), then branched out into Boxing, and now Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I'm lucky, i have a golden gloves coach two miles down the road, and the BJJ school up the street is run by a Gracie Black Belt. So, I'm spoiled for good instructors!

I do miss swinging a stick, though... hehehe. 

Mike


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## dcoscina

Farkle said:


> Oh shit!! I see it now! It's a variation of the Wado Ryu logo! Very cool!
> 
> Yeah, my other passion is martial arts. Went a strange route; trained in Jeet Kune Do Concepts and Filipino Martial Arts under the Inosanto Academy (one of his senior instructors), then branched out into Boxing, and now Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I'm lucky, i have a golden gloves coach two miles down the road, and the BJJ school up the street is run by a Gracie Black Belt. So, I'm spoiled for good instructors!
> 
> I do miss swinging a stick, though... hehehe.
> 
> Mike


Nice Mike! I wanted to start Judo but COVID happened and any close quarter MA was pretty much off the table.... I have toyed with BJJ but I'd like to work on take downs. Judoka are some tough cookies in that regard. Anyhow, this is more offline banter... sorry StaffPad guys... 

Plus I love the Judo slogan "The art of hitting people with a planet". LOL


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## thesteelydane

We really need a composers martial arts club. I’m passionate about Muay Thai (as Mike already knows). Sorry for derailing the thread even more


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## prodigalson

Sean J said:


> Then it tells me how many bars & beats to write, when music needs to change pace, etc.



can you elaborate on this? I understand how it tells you how many bars and beats to write but how does it tell you when the music needs to change pace??


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## Sean J

prodigalson said:


> can you elaborate on this? I understand how it tells you how many bars and beats to write but how does it tell you when the music needs to change pace??



I treat it like a new cue, adding a new line. I just give it a name that's sub the first.

M1.a
M1.b
etc.

A spreadsheet isn't for everyone, but it works well for me.


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