# The Dark Knight Reference



## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 8, 2013)

Just wanted to share something with people here. 

I got called by a director and producer I had worked with on a previous film which was one of the biggest hits last year. I worked as an additional composer with another friend. We did all of the score but failed to get the credit as composers because of some technical reasons. We did get credited as additional composers.

Now, the same team has made a new film and this time they contacted me directly to produce and write additional music for another composer.

Most of the film is temped with The Dark Knight. They have done the edit with this music. The director and the composer want to basically keep everything the same as TDK but changing a few things. At this time, this is unacceptable to me personally. 

They are offering around $13,000 for a months work which is not bad in India. The composer seems to have met Hans (so he claims). He told me how Hans recommended him to buy a Guitar Viola. Not sure if this story is true because people say all kinds of things in this business.

So I told them that it will be a problem to basically copy this idea as its not fair or technically possible to re-create that kind of score.

One, it is Hans's idea and his thought process and nobody can replicate that. Plus, it is a million dollar recording with some of the finest musicians in the world. 

On my first meeting I sounded off the director and producer and gave some inputs. I said, the films is brilliant (its a really nice film - political thriller set in the 90s India). 

I told them that we should try creating a unique sound for the film because in any case there is no way to recreate TDK world. The director did agree at that point.

But today I met the main composer and he was very ok with basically taking TDK approach and matching some of the cues. 

Its a tricky situation because I feel if the director is given something good, he may listen and give it a shot but I do not want to bypass the main composer and sort of take the main seat. After all, I am only the producer/additional composer of the project on paper even though I will be doing most of the major work.

They said, they may speak to Paramount for distribution internationally. 

Its a very sad state of affairs. Even though they have a nice film, they want to go ahead and lessen its value by putting TDK - which is a brilliant score which I love and have studied in my own time to learn from. I cannot in good faith just take that world and paste it onto this film.

So, I have decided to back out from this project after I speak to the producer one last time trying to get their mind changed. 

It is painful to see composers themselves doing this and referencing a movie on their own with someone else's work. 

They are always referencing - today they had Laya Project open and some of Mr. Zimmers work from Black Hawk Down. 

How do I explain to them that this is ethically wrong and also on all grounds will be a failed attempt to create a bad version of TDK. 

Two points come to mind:

1. Those who have heard the Batman scores or seen any of the films (Most everyone I know has) - will instantly recognize this world and it will devalue the movie instantly.

2. Those who have not heard - it does not make a difference whether we put TDK or a new score - something that works and is better suited for the film will make it a better experience.

And why must I subject myself to being an operator, working on music without thought and without consequence? 

Is this why we decided to become film composers, musicians? 

How do you guys deal with such problems?

I have worked on many movies but this is the first time I am being faced with such strong opinions on how the score and each cue should sound. They have references for almost every scene. 

End of rant!


Tanuj.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 8, 2013)

First off, congrats on getting the offer.
Secondly, I totally agree with your point of view Tanuj.
I personally would have to way up my financial situation to decide whether i take the job or not, and try and predict if you would enjoy working on the project or not.
Morally, i would not want to be known as somebody who ripped off somebody else, but ultimately it is the director doing the 'ripping off'.

I can not offer any advice to your situation, but i do empathise with you, and I hope that the director/producer makes the right choice, for everyone's sake.

Make your point clear and be heard, and see how it goes.


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## Daryl (Jun 8, 2013)

Pretty simple. Don't take the gig if it means stealing someone else's Copyright. There is no circumstance where this can be done in any moral way.

One thing you can do is write a few specimen cues that maybe create the same feeling, but are your own work, and that are representative of what you could bring to the film. If the Director likes what you do, there may be no issue.

The other thing to do is to (tactfully) point out to the Director that if there is a lawsuit, your name is on the cue, and presumably you would have signed the part of the contract where it states that you agree that all the music is original and your own work. Whilst this may not be important in the current climate in India, it is very important should the film get any sort of distribution. The last thing you would want is a lawsuit with your name on it.

D


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## Ed (Jun 8, 2013)

Dont ask me how I stumbled on it, but I've seen some shameless rip offs in Indian films.

Take a look at this one: 
http://youtu.be/-QRR0d-opfs?t=1h25m
and again...
http://youtu.be/-QRR0d-opfs?t=1h31m10s

Recognise the theme? Frodo?

Also I remember they ripped off Finding Nemo as well in another place


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## Cruciform (Jun 8, 2013)

Get HZ to give them a call and tell them the lawyers are waiting to listen to the score.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 8, 2013)

First off, I really doubt that you or anyone can replicate what Hans and his team did with TDK, especially in a month!
Second, the money you will make will always feel dirty to you, as it should, for it is nothing less than the rewards from stealing.
Third, think about how you would feel if the tables were turned, and you knew that someone in the US was using your hard-earned, 25-hour shift work for their profit.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 8, 2013)

@Ned: I completely agree with you. I do not care for the money one bit. Never have. I have done 7 films back to back in the last year and really dont need to do another movie just yet.

This is not a question of whether I should still do it because the money is good. I cannot create TDK even in 10 years. Its that good.

I am upset because they have indeed made a good film and the only way I will be on board is if they really are ready to do something different. I am trying to find ways to convince them that TDK is not the best approach for them legally, ethically and artistically. 

@ED - I agree - 100%! This is the reason I do not wish to work here all my life. There are some very talented musicians in India but copying music from Hollywood is rampant and has been going on for decades. I can tell you movies, where they have pasted direct lifts (even from the CD) from scores of John Williams, Hans Zimmer and countless others.

This is a particular problem for people like me who want to do original music but do not get the time or the budget and its so easy for idiots to just copy-paste that they do not think of hiring someone sensible. 

I went abroad to study for 4 years in the UK and when I came back and joined the industry, I got a rude shock. I want to do the best always but its never met with the right response most of the time. Even movies are copied. But there are some good film makers.

This is the number 1 reason I wish to relocate to a city/country where I can at least keep writing what I love to and make a decent living - be a part of something special and add to something. 

I mean, thats the whole reason we got into music. 

Here is a direct CD lift of One Simple Idea from Inception:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxLtBkBh88U

And here is Indiabulls (a multi-million dollar company - probably a billion rupees plus) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC7C6iF7GwI

Gladiator anyone??!!!!

All the actors in these two commercials are big guys in India. These are big campaigns and this is really heartbreaking for people like me who want to write original music and loose out on the opportunity because nobody cares about quality since there are hundreds of guys ready to just copy something.


@Daryl - I am going to write some stuff for free for them to make them turn, if not - it will be a simple no even if they offer a million dollars.

Music is too important for me to corrupt myself for money.


Thanks for your support guys!


Tanuj.


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## KEnK (Jun 8, 2013)

Sadly copying temp scores is done all the time.
Some directors/editors think it's the normal way to work.

Here's a fun fact-
I have a friend who works at Pixar.
His job is to create temp music for the animators.
It's almost all done by editing pre-existing scores together. 
(splice and dice- that's what they want)

When it's time for the "composers" to do the final score,
they use my friends tempo maps and score references regarding keys,
density, instrumentation etc.

It's just fill in the blanks.
He often feels he's done the "real" work.
The name composers are just "painting by numbers".

This is why so much big budget stuff sounds the same.
It _is_ the same. 

No doubt you will be faced w/ this situation often.
How you come to terms w/ it or not will have an effect on your career.

k


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## dgburns (Jun 8, 2013)

personally,i find this happens all the time.Movies with temp from other movies.happens to even the a listers.but there is a difference between "we cut this in for feel and temp" and "please just rip this off".

tough call,if they if fact just want a "legally ok very close approximation cause they have no imagination-version",then you did the right thing by backing away.

but in my experience,temp music ,and a director really tied to his temp,is just the beginning of what should be a very involved interaction between you and him to discover what the sonic tone the film really deserves.

I believe we are all salesmen at the end of the day.How good you are at getting them jazzed up for a new original sound is up to you to sell.you have to have a vision of what that would be,and then you need to SELL them on it.

these situations are always opportunities.You can either let them dictate the terms,or you can create the environment so that you can .

this to me is HZ greatest achievement,as well as other successful a listers.the constant ability to seem like THEY have it going on.it is pervasive,and all the cool kids want to be involved with them cause they are the cool ones.that and they work hard at forging new directions for soundtrack work.

that's how I see it anyway.


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## KEnK (Jun 8, 2013)

dgburns @ Sat Jun 08 said:


> ...this to me is HZ greatest achievement,as well as other successful a listers.the constant ability to seem like THEY have it going on.it is pervasive,and all the cool kids want to be involved with them cause they are the cool ones.that and they work hard at forging new directions for soundtrack work.
> 
> that's how I see it anyway.


:?: :roll: 

Sorry- but to my ear the "A listers" are churning out continuous crap.
I haven't heard a new idea in a big budget film in a couple of decades.

pardon my cynicism.

k


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## dgburns (Jun 8, 2013)

I can respect your opinion.I for one find CGI a bit hard to take these days in the films in general.

Point I am trying to make....maybe badly written....is that we have the choice to engage the director,producer,to create a world view of their film from scratch.

Maybe take a few characters from the film,and create a sound for them.Take the motives of the story line and transform them into musical ideas that you can pitch to the director.

I think you may find that when a director sees that you can tell a story,or take a story line and transform it into a score idea,he'll be coming in his pants at the fact he can talk story with you.you'll have an film co-conspirator friend for life.he won't want to work with anyone else after that.and they won't by talking about the dark knight for very much longer too.if you do your job really well,he'll apologize for having temped with it in the first place.

.....that,and they don't give a sh&t about what f)&[email protected] sample library you use people.


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## Ed (Jun 8, 2013)

KEnK @ Sat Jun 08 said:


> Sadly copying temp scores is done all the time.
> Some directors/editors think it's the normal way to work.



Yes but as you can see from just a few examples in this thread, this isnt about pastiche, a lot more direct copying goes on in Indian films. I suspect there's very little legal ramifications for them


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## KEnK (Jun 8, 2013)

To dgburns-

What you propose as a working model is great.
My experience w/ "temp love" has taught me that it's often irrelevant.

To ed-

Yes- I see endless regurgitation of a very few tired elements.
"Copying" has become the "name of the game".

k


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 8, 2013)

@Ed: Indeed there is very little legal activity. I am working on another film at the moment and the composers (two brothers) are a big name here and have built most of their careers on scoring and they have tried to change the game as best as they can.

But they lost on three big movies because they were asking for royalties. This is the extent of the problem. 

Sadly, nobody from the west is mostly bothered to sue anyone here. 

A single big lawsuit could change things down here.

Disney has just taken over a big movie company in India. Lots of ad agencies are the same from US and Europe. O&M etc etc...

Fox, Warner Brothers and Viacom 18 with others have also entered India. They have movie channels, production houses. 

But most of these companies do not behave how they do Hollywood. I have had a problem with Disney on three commercials where they refused to agree to royalties or buyout payments saying that this is how Disney operates and the agreement was a spit on the composers face - a bonded labour agreement at best - Laughable - even though with the new copyright law passed in the parliament, this is illegal in India. Under no circumstances can a composer give away his copyright. But this law is not being upheld and there is a lot of confusion as to who is collecting the royalties and where do they go. I doubt Disney can do this in the US or other countries with a stronger copyright law.

One of the biggest composer of yesteryear died in a one-room kitchen 50 kms outside of Mumbai in poor health, unable to pay for his medical bills. This is also the reality. So composers jump on the chance to make money and there is a LOT to be made because India is booming like anything right now and the music and film industry is enjoying one of its best times. There is lots of work for composers and artists right now - a huge boost in live performances and as the purchasing power of the country improves in the future (hopefully) - this will only get stronger and bigger. 

But a strong law which is upheld is needed to truly give the deserving guys a chance.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## dgburns (Jun 8, 2013)

as we say around here "are you married to the temp?"

sometimes a no win.always seems to be with directors that we are "breaking in".like a wild horse :mrgreen: 

nothing like working with someone who says"i was thinking of your music when we were shooting this" you can get there sometimes.

sounds like you've been there too....cheers bro


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## Ed (Jun 8, 2013)

KEnK @ Sat Jun 08 said:


> Yes- I see endless regurgitation of a very few tired elements.
> "Copying" has become the "name of the game".



Not just elements, I mean this is note for note stuff. Look at the example I provided, it literally is the shire theme from LOTR, note for note.


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## Madrigal (Jun 8, 2013)

Copyright infringement is a big issue in Asia since it also occurs in mainstream media like you guys pointed out. 

As the economy and entertainment industry develop, so will the legal enforcement towards those issues. It might take a while, but if indian movies start getting more worldwide distribution, it will be harder for such infringement to go unnoticed. A first big lawsuit will ensue and you'll be able to refer to it when clients want you to copy someone else's work. Sometimes for things to change, you need to bring in the stick. 

If you don't need the money and if the producers and director won't hear your arguments, feel free to let it go. You seem to trace a very clear portrait of the situation, I'm sure your wisdom will lead you to the right decision. 

Best of luck, 

-M


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## Resoded (Jun 8, 2013)

Meanwhile in HZ HQ, the next big thing is created. Dance puppets, dance! :twisted:


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## germancomponist (Jun 8, 2013)

Hm, isn't it long ago that the ASCAP and BMI noticed this situation?


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 11, 2013)

So, I finally had a chance to talk to them today.

I saw the whole film - its amazing and a huge scope for score!

I told them that we cannot copy TDK for the reasons I have mentioned before and they were OK with it largely. 

I informed them of the legal problems that they will run into if they do it. This is what finally got them thinking. They want to enter film festivals and are in talks with Paramount. So this will be a huge problem for them if they just copy the music. I clearly told them I am out if that is exactly what they want to do! 

Now, I am going to write some new stuff which they will hopefully like and we are out with TDK!

Better sense has prevailed!


Tanuj.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 11, 2013)

Great work Tanuj! Happy for you! 
All the best with the project and I can't wait to hear it.


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## MR F (Jun 11, 2013)

Great to hear you've sorted that out! Congratz on the project and good luck with it


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 11, 2013)

+1


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## arxpit (Jun 12, 2013)

Phew. 

You know what's funny. I was working with a mid-budget film based out of USA (Hindi-English film). The director did the exact opposite of what you explained. He told me to copy the scores from Once Upon A time in Mumbai and Gangajal and I explained to them copying the score will not do his film justice. He didn't really want to listen to me. I still produced some stuff (original) and sent it back to him. Hopefully he will see a brighter side of not copying a score and give me the project.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 12, 2013)

In the end copying music is not worth the time and suicidal feelings that you get just thinking about it. Better things to do like practice and sharpen your skills.

Good luck!

I am starting my the score next week with some experiments in the lab with my Prophet and about 50 instances of Diva!

Then we move on to real instruments!


Best,

Tanuj.


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