# Key signatures for modes?



## andylowemusic (Jan 19, 2021)

Hey,

When you're scoring a piece in a mode, do you use the key signature that fits best, or use a major/minor signature based on the same root and use accidentals?

E.g. if your piece is in D lydian, would you go for a 3-sharp key signature, or a 2-sharp (D major) signature and have all the G#s as accidentals?

Thanks,
Andy


----------



## Bollen (Jan 19, 2021)

andylowemusic said:


> Hey,
> 
> When you're scoring a piece in a mode, do you use the key signature that fits best, or use a major/minor signature based on the same root and use accidentals?
> 
> ...


Hi Andy, it really is up to you, you're the composer and it's your creation, therefore your choice. My composition teacher was adamant that "modal music" never uses key signature, but in my performing career I've come across them more often than not. It's all about ease of sight-reading versus conveying intention...


----------



## andylowemusic (Jan 19, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Hi Andy, it really is up to you, you're the composer and it's your creation, therefore your choice. My composition teacher was adamant that "modal music" never uses key signature, but in my performing career I've come across them more often than not. It's all about ease of sight-reading versus conveying intention...


Thanks for your reply Bollen. That makes sense, I guess it's one of those issues where the 'convention' might not be the most helpful in practice!


----------



## JohnG (Jan 19, 2021)

Hi Andy,

It depends somewhat on the players and the type of music -- concert piece or media music. In traditional concert pieces, where there is more or less "regular" harmony and key centers that are static for significant portions of the music, the score is usually presented with key signatures and is transposed (so a Bb instrument is in the score a whole step above where it sounds, for example).

The exception is super-modern writing, in which the key center is either ambiguous or constantly changing, so that a key signature is not helpful to the players. I just reviewed a new _avant-garde _score for a concert piece that has lots of accidentals and no key signatures at all.

*Media Music*

In much of film / tv / game recording, at least in London and the USA, you rarely see key signatures, and the score is usually a "concert" score, with only octave transpositions shown (piccolo is written into the score an octave below where it will sound, contrabass and contrabassoon an octave above, and so on). So, for example, Bb Trumpet is written into the _score_ at concert pitch -- the _part_ the player reads is, of course, transposed.

Glancing through the Omni Publishing scores of "Back to the Future," "Total Recall," and "How to Train Your Dragon," I didn't spot any key signatures.

That is partly convention and partly because media music often is composed, orchestrated, and scored in an enormous hurry. In the pre-software days, that inevitably led to a small number of copying or orchestration errors, so having everything in concert pitch meant that the conductor / composer could identify mistakes quickly and fix them.

But there is no hard and fast rule about media music. If it's "really" in Eb, use a key signature.

Also, if you are recording in Japan, use a transposed score no matter what. It's what they're accustomed to there, as I discovered last year.

*Modes*

Once upon a time, orchestras and ensembles had plenty of time for rehearsal. That is far less typical than it once was. Accordingly, for a modal concert piece, I recommend using a "regular" key signature if it fits the music, so the players have fewer accidentals to read. I like to save time (and money) and I'm usually recording, not working on concert pieces.

It's possible some rules-type person, who may have a lot of experience and many lofty degrees, will insist that there's a "correct" way to do it. Maybe, maybe not, but the most practical solution, in my view, is always the best.

By "regular key signature," I mean something like F# and C# (so D major / B minor) or Bb, Eb, Ab. I would _not_ use a weird key signature with two flats and three sharps, or anything idiosyncratic like that. I have seen music printed that way and, as a performer, I find it harder to read than no key signature at all.

In the end, do as you please, and what you think feels right.


----------



## DerGeist (Jan 19, 2021)

I would vote for using the regalar key signature. I have on occasion written a note (mostly to myself) that states: "Indicates D Dorian" for something written in C major but played as D Dorian.


----------



## andylowemusic (Jan 19, 2021)

@JohnG that's some real insight right there! I'm a bit shocked that you might not see any key signatures on movie and game scores. And feel for the poor brass players who don't get their transpositions...


----------



## JohnG (Jan 19, 2021)

andylowemusic said:


> @JohnG that's some real insight right there! I'm a bit shocked that you might not see any key signatures on movie and game scores. And feel for the poor brass players who don't get their transpositions...


Hi Andy,

The brass players -- all the transposing instruments -- get parts that are transposed normally, as you'd see in a concert piece. It's only the score itself -- not the parts -- that is in concert pitch.

I must have made that hard to follow -- edited to make it more clear.


----------



## chillbot (Jan 19, 2021)

I've had this exact debate with a bunch of people, we've nearly unanimously decided that the preference (read: the correct method, obviously) is to use the key signature of the nearest major/minor key and accidentals for modes.

So yes this means if you're in D dorian you would use one flat to indicate D minor even though you are going to put a natural next to that Bb every time. The purpose of notation is clarity, never confusion. Too many of us have the keys so engrained in our heads that one flat = D minor or F major, it's really hard to get away from those tonic centers. I think in addition to that, so many of us think of dorian (as an example) in our heads as "minor with a raised 6th" so it just makes sense within that context.

C major / D dorian is a simple enough example that I could see working around it either way, but more complex situations like the one you gave of D lydian vs D ionian, it's that added element of confusion you don't want, when you see three sharps and immediately thinking A major.

The thing JohnG is referring to about whether to use key signatures at all is valid but an entirely separate issue.


----------



## Bollen (Jan 19, 2021)

chillbot said:


> I've had this exact debate with a bunch of people, we've nearly unanimously decided that the preference (read: the correct method, obviously) is to use the key signature of the nearest major/minor key and accidentals for modes.
> 
> So yes this means if you're in D dorian you would use one flat to indicate D minor even though you are going to put a natural next to that Bb every time. The purpose of notation is clarity, never confusion. Too many of us have the keys so engrained in our heads that one flat = D minor or F major, it's really hard to get away from those tonic centers. I think in addition to that, so many of us think of dorian (as an example) in our heads as "minor with a raised 6th" so it just makes sense within that context.
> 
> ...


I couldn't disagree more, but I have seen this many times. I find it confusing as hell!


----------



## JJP (Jan 19, 2021)

chillbot said:


> I've had this exact debate with a bunch of people, we've nearly unanimously decided that the preference (read: the correct method, obviously) is to use the key signature of the nearest major/minor key and accidentals for modes.


This is what I do most often to make it clear to the performers where the tonal center is and what the alteration is to create the mode. It enables the musicians to more easily hear the music when looking at the page.

However, as @JohnG makes clear, context rules the ultimate decision.


----------



## chillbot (Jan 19, 2021)

Bollen said:


> I find it confusing as hell!


Do accidentals confuse you? I couldn't disagree more with your unableness to disagree more.










Obviously I could sight read both of these simple examples without issue. But one of them immediately screams "Bb dorian" to me while the other one implies maybe an Eb7 dominant chord in Ab major. Context will clarify either way but the point of notation is to make it as instantly clear as possible.


----------



## JJP (Jan 19, 2021)

chillbot said:


>


I look at the second example and, devoid of context, immediately start thinking/hearing the line in relation to an Ab or F tonic. The first example has to be some flavor of Bb or Db tonality.


----------



## Bollen (Jan 19, 2021)

chillbot said:


> I couldn't disagree more with your unableness to disagree more.


Ha, brilliant!


chillbot said:


> But one of them immediately screams "Bb dorian"


Yes, the 2nd example, the 1st one implies a modulation or alteration. This is what I meant by "I find it confusing as hell!", it's not that it's not used, but it is by far the most confusing usage of key signatures because your tonic root is not where the key signature is saying it is. Modal and tonal music are two very different things, to mix them like this is asking for trouble....


----------



## Bollen (Jan 19, 2021)

JJP said:


> I look at the second example and, devoid of context, immediately start thinking/hearing the line in relation to an Ab or F tonic. The first example has to be some flavor of Bb or Db tonality.


Or more likely a V of II....


----------



## chillbot (Jan 19, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Modal and tonal music are two very different things, to mix them like this is asking for trouble....


All I can say to this is I like your avatar.


----------



## FGBR (Jan 19, 2021)

Interesting discussion. I just checked the Omni score for The Matrix, and didn't see any key signatures there either. Hadn't really given it much thought before that practices might differ between concert and film/tv/games etc. 

So @chillbot, you'd notate it with one flat even if it's a minute or two of funk over Dm7 / G13? 

From my experience in playing in big bands/jazz etc. (as one of the few guitarists out there that can read music apparently ) I'd typically see that notated with no flats. And might even prefer it that way. Quite a different setting though, and you're typically already familiar with the tune and/or the idiomatic harmony.

However if you're on a session or gig and hearing the music for the first time as you're recording/sight reading it, I certainly see the benefit of indicating nearest major/minor rather than the key signature of the specific mode. 

Thanks for the input and experience from several here, and to andylowmusic for bringing up the topic.


----------



## JJP (Jan 19, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Or more likely a V of II....


Ah, but you wouldn't be thinking that if there is anything else going on. Chances are the harmony will be implying Bb dorian because we said that this is a dorian piece. I don't want to have a disconnect between the key signature and the tonality I hear. If sight-reading, that can be challenging.


----------



## chillbot (Jan 19, 2021)

FGBR said:


> So @chillbot, you'd notate it with one flat even if it's a minute or two of funk over Dm7 / G13?



No not necessarily... as JJP keeps saying, context is everything. 1) That's a really basic example (only one accidental), could go either way. 2) Are you notating the chord symbols on top (Dm7 / G13)? If so that gives me way more context/info than the key signature. 3) Yes I might still put it in one flat. 4) As mentioned, no key signature is also a viable option.

I always just assume that people are sight-reading, or at least I want to help them read it as easily as possible... in so many cases time is literally money. What you DON'T want is to have any questions come up... is it _this_ or is it _that_.

In your example, I might put it in one flat (D minor), write "D Dorian" over measure one, AND throw in the chord symbols to boot if they are relevant.


----------



## Bollen (Jan 19, 2021)

chillbot said:


> All I can say to this is I like your avatar.


And I yours....!



JJP said:


> Ah, but you wouldn't be thinking that if there is anything else going on. Chances are the harmony will be implying Bb dorian because we said that this is a dorian piece. I don't want to have a disconnect between the key signature and the tonality I hear. If sight-reading, that can be challenging.


Precisely! If I'm sight reading I would prefer no KS or the one that will allow for the fewest exceptions/alteration markings. It makes absolutely no sense to have a (B) flat in the KS and then every single B in the piece has a natural sign on it... 

Perhaps the issue is that you see modes as a tonality, whereas I don't! For me tonalities are either major or minor, modal music on the other hand is a completely different canof worms and it can get quite tricky especially on the more "unusual" ones (think modes of limited transposition, etc.).


----------



## FGBR (Jan 19, 2021)

chillbot said:


> No not necessarily... as JJP keeps saying, context is everything. 1) That's a really basic example (only one accidental), could go either way. 2) Are you notating the chord symbols on top (Dm7 / G13)? If so that gives me way more context/info than the key signature. 3) Yes I might still put it in one flat. 4) As mentioned, no key signature is also a viable option.
> 
> I always just assume that people are sight-reading, or at least I want to help them read it as easily as possible... in so many cases time is literally money. What you DON'T want is to have any questions come up... is it _this_ or is it _that_.
> 
> In your example, I might put it in one flat (D minor), write "D Dorian" over measure one, AND throw in the chord symbols to boot if they are relevant.


Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Reading your first post again I see you weren't as adamant about the practice as I first wrongly assumed.

Now I feel well equipped to go into Abbey Road and record endless dorian jams with the London Symphony Orchestra as backing. Apparently it's what everyone is asking for these days.


----------



## GtrString (Jan 19, 2021)

Normally, I wouldnt notate a scale, which modes are. Modes follow the root key, either minor (dorian, aeolian or phrygian) or major (ionian, lydian or mixolydian). So if the piece is D Dorian, I would just notate D minor.

The reason for this approach is that keys and scales does not neccesarily have to match. You can play out of scale runs in D major, and use non-diatonic chords, but would still call it D major.


----------



## MusiquedeReve (Jan 19, 2021)

What about if there is one note in the composition that is not in the key signature? 
I am working on a composition that changes key signatures (3 keys in total) and one of those key signatures uses a note not in the key and there is no other key that perfectly fits which would include that note


----------



## andylowemusic (Jan 19, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> The brass players -- all the transposing instruments -- get parts that are transposed normally, as you'd see in a concert piece. It's only the score itself -- not the parts -- that is in concert pitch.
> 
> I must have made that hard to follow -- edited to make it more clear.


Ah, gotcha


----------



## andylowemusic (Jan 19, 2021)

Haha I was not expecting to open up such a can of worms!!

I'm finding all these comments fascinating though. My main takeaway so far is that you do whatever helps the musicians the most. Not all musicians will see things the same way, but when in doubt you can find a way to make it clearer.


----------



## Bollen (Jan 19, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> What about if there is one note in the composition that is not in the key signature?
> I am working on a composition that changes key signatures (3 keys in total) and one of those key signatures uses a note not in the key and there is no other key that perfectly fits which would include that note


In Pop and Jazz the rule is more than 8 bars in a different key change the KS...


----------



## Rob (Jan 19, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Do accidentals confuse you? I couldn't disagree more with your unableness to disagree more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


agree with first example, I think that's the clearest. If there was the possibility to put a natural on G in the signature, I guess that could also be a way...


----------



## bosone (Jan 20, 2021)

In a guitar score of Dream Theater I have there is a note that reads "key signature implies XXX mode"


----------

