# Mixing with Saturation ? Plugins ? Theory ?



## nuyo (Jul 27, 2021)

I heard a few people talk about using Saturation for Mixing. I experimented with some of the Soundtoys Plugins.
I noticed that the sounds get more consistent like I used Compression. Some of their Plugins have multiple Saturation Modes. 
Some of them make things more harsh and some of them sound more musical.

I also heard someone say that Saturation is the better way for getting rid of ringing tones and harshness ?
This sounds strange to me because I always thought that Saturation is the same or similiar to distortion ?


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## Consona (Jul 27, 2021)

Saturation is a very versatile mixing tool. It can give you more headroom, shape transients, act as an eq for taming frequencies, glue things together, add color, etc. Just seach youtube for some useful videos.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 27, 2021)

Consona said:


> Saturation is a very versatile mixing tool. It can give you more headroom, shape transients, act as an eq for taming frequencies, glue things together, add color, etc. Just seach youtube for some useful videos.


^ this


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## PeterN (Jul 27, 2021)

Consona said:


> Saturation is a very versatile mixing tool. It can give you more headroom, shape transients, act as an eq for taming frequencies, glue things together, add color, etc. Just seach youtube for some useful videos.



Yea, and it can also make things sound unnatural and disturb a mix. Would be cautious to only praise saturation. Apologies, had to throw in a negative opinion for the *balance*. 

Have done a number of mixes where I need to go back and trace some weirdness - say, one you had a break and succeeded in objectifying your track - sometimes the *weirdness* is the *saturation plugin*. 

Now its on the list of _*main suspects*_. Gullfoss is also on it.


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## nuyo (Jul 27, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Yea, and it can also make things sound unnatural and disturb a mix. Would be cautious to only praise saturation. Apologies, had to throw in a negative opinion for the *balance*.
> 
> Have done a number of mixes where I need to go back and trace some weirdness - say, one you had a break and succeeded in objectifying your track - sometimes the *weirdness* is the *saturation plugin*.
> 
> Now its on the list of _*main suspects*_. Gullfoss is also on it.


Gullfloss never worked for me. You can get better results with Surgical EQing (3 or 2 bands) and some Saturation.


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## MartinH. (Jul 27, 2021)

Reminds me of this thread:






Using Saturation Instead of EQ


Hi Everyone, I've been mesmerized by the Alan Meyerson video like most of us here. I've googled and googled about using saturation instead of EQ (as he says he does regularly) and have turned up next to nothing. I'm very interested in this secret technique so I'm going to share my thoughts and...




vi-control.net


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## Consona (Jul 27, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Yea, and it can also make things sound unnatural and disturb a mix. Would be cautious to only praise saturation. Apologies, had to throw in a negative opinion for the *balance*.


Yep. This applies to everything. You can over-EQ stuff, over-compress it, etc.


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## jcrosby (Jul 27, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Yea, and it can also make things sound unnatural and disturb a mix. Would be cautious to only praise saturation. Apologies, had to throw in a negative opinion for the *balance*.
> 
> Have done a number of mixes where I need to go back and trace some weirdness - say, one you had a break and succeeded in objectifying your track - sometimes the *weirdness* is the *saturation plugin*.
> 
> Now its on the list of _*main suspects*_. Gullfoss is also on it.


If saturation falls into the category of "main suspects" that frequently 'disturb' a mix this seems to point to questionable gain staging.

Unless you're using a plugin with variable input gain, saturation plugins by their very nature behave differently depending on the level you drive into them. Too much level and you can easily wind up with mud, greater loss of transient detail than you'd ideally try to achieve, etc.

That isn't to say it'll work on everything. But with good gain staging and some tasteful choices you can often get away with putting saturation on most things if that's the vibe you're after.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 27, 2021)

Unless it’s an audible effect you’re going for, you should barely hear saturation, if at all. Very light saturation can provide a more dynamic signal because you don’t have to feel like it needs to be compressed as much - it also can help the compressor not work as hard and reduce any chance of pumping. A lot of time should be something you kinda “feel” rather than hear. Depending on the track, saturation may not be the correct tool. 

Also, Gullfoss is very easy to overdo. However, having the live and mastering versions now help.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 27, 2021)

This just hit my inbox today: https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/learn/how-to-use-saturation


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## Dirtgrain (Jul 27, 2021)

Saturation is like a performance enhancing drug--it's for cheaters.


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## Alchemedia (Jul 27, 2021)

Dirtgrain said:


> Saturation is like a performance enhancing drug--it's for cheaters.


Why would you say that? It's another ingredient in the art of mixing and mastering and requires a discerning ear. How is that "cheating"? I suppose you consider EQ & compression cheating also?


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## Trash Panda (Jul 27, 2021)

Dirtgrain said:


> Saturation is like a performance enhancing drug--it's for cheaters.


You appear to be lost. I think this is the thread you’re looking for. 






"Cheating" in Music


If anyone ever accuses you of cheating because you use technology to compensate for your lack of playing skill, just know that in McCartney 321, he talks about how they would slow the tape down to half speed, play a difficult piano part an octave lower, then speed it up again so that it sounded...




vi-control.net


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## Alchemedia (Jul 27, 2021)

@Trash Panda You beat me to the punch!


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## Dirtgrain (Jul 27, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> You appear to be lost. I think this is the thread you’re looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ya, was intended as a joke and reference to that. My apologies on going off track.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 27, 2021)

Dirtgrain said:


> Ya, was intended as a joke and reference to that. My apologies on going off track.


My post was also in jest.


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## Alchemedia (Jul 27, 2021)

My apologies DirtGrain. With a moniker like that, I should have realized you were kidding. 
Nice to know we're all on the same page.


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## NekujaK (Jul 27, 2021)

The main thing saturation does is add harmonics to sound. Sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes it's not, and it often depends on the type of harmonics being added.

At the end of the day, your ears will tell you what you need to know. In mixing there aren't any blanket rules about what you must or must not do. The only hard and fast rule is that whatever you do, it should sound good, at least to you. So throw saturation on some tracks - if they sound better to you, keep it in. If not, forget the saturation.

If you go to FabFilter's site and look up Saturn (their saturation plugin), they've got a really good video that explains exactly what saturation does and how it affects sound. It's one of the best videos I've seen on the subject, with clear, illustrative, and useful examples.


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## obey (Jul 27, 2021)

To my understanding saturation is a combination of soft knee compression and harmonic distortion (different types emphasize different sets of harmonics) which brings out more helpful frequencies from the signal as well as helping bring up lower signals through gentle compression. It's a tool like any other but it's a very powerful one when used tastefully. 

Ex. The tube saturation that creates warmth people love has a stronger second order harmonic emphases in the saturation and that gentle soft knee compression that comes with it helps round things out and fill up the signal. 

This is my understanding, anyway. I'm happy to learn if I'm wrong!


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## jason.d (Jul 27, 2021)

NekujaK said:


> The main thing saturation does is add harmonics to sound. Sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes it's not, and it often depends on the type of harmonics being added.
> 
> At the end of the day, your ears will tell you what you need to know. In mixing there aren't any blanket rules about what you must or must not do. The only hard and fast rule is that whatever you do, it should sound good, at least to you. So throw saturation on some tracks - if they sound better to you, keep it in. If not, forget the saturation.
> 
> If you go to FabFilter's site and look up Saturn (their saturation plugin), they've got a really good video that explains exactly what saturation does and how it affects sound. It's one of the best videos I've seen on the subject, with clear, illustrative, and useful examples.


Well said.

I’ve used FF Saturn on some instruments and it can really help excite the sound, and this really helps when you’re trying to pump some life into samples. And of course, any saturation plugin should do.


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## nuyo (Jul 28, 2021)

jason.d said:


> Well said.
> 
> I’ve used FF Saturn on some instruments and it can really help excite the sound, and this really helps when you’re trying to pump some life into samples. And of course, any saturation plugin should do.


Saturn has an extra compression knob built into it. I started experimenting with that. Now it sounds like OTT.


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## PeterN (Jul 28, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> If saturation falls into the category of "main suspects" that frequently 'disturb' a mix this seems to point to questionable gain staging.
> 
> Unless you're using a plugin with variable input gain, saturation plugins by their very nature behave differently depending on the level you drive into them. Too much level and you can easily wind up with mud, greater loss of transient detail than you'd ideally try to achieve, etc.
> 
> That isn't to say it'll work on everything. But with good gain staging and some tasteful choices you can often get away with putting saturation on most things if that's the vibe you're after.



Yea, but its not _frequently_, that is your word. You see 3 messages, praising saturation, so like I said. in the post, I threw in one negative for the *balance*.

I recall last time I was wondering why the piano ballad was weird, I found the saturation plugin. It fu.ked up the piano sound. I guess if someone is doing, say, techno stuff, it might just work like magic. Probably will never throw it on a piano, on a piano ballad anymore, with exception of vocals and (maybe a pinch) master bus. Just as an example.


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## Tralen (Jul 28, 2021)

Saturation is also very useful to blend different libraries together, or to make individual instruments sound like an ensemble.

When you saturate a section together, you get a type of unity that is hard to mimic with other effects.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 28, 2021)

I


PeterN said:


> Yea, but its not _frequently_, that is your word. You see 3 messages, praising saturation, so like I said. in the post, I threw in one negative for the *balance*.
> 
> I recall last time I was wondering why the piano ballad was weird, I found the saturation plugin. It fu.ked up the piano sound. I guess if someone is doing, say, techno stuff, it might just work like magic. Probably will never throw it on a piano, on a piano ballad anymore, with exception of vocals and (maybe a pinch) master bus. Just as an example.


It really depends on how much you're applying, how high quality it is, where you're targeting it in the frequency, the type of saturation being applied, etc. I'd probably start (and end?) with extremely subtle saturation on a piano, if any. Probably zero saturation if there's a piano solo - but I'd still try it out. Maybe apply very subtle tape saturation with Softube Tape or Fuse Audio Flywheel.

I might almost apply a parallel compressor set to let the transient through and a bit more and then saturate the tail of the compressed signal.


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## PeterN (Jul 28, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I
> 
> It really depends on how much you're applying, how high quality it is, where you're targeting it in the frequency, the type of saturation being applied, etc. I'd probably start (and end?) with extremely subtle saturation on a piano, if any. Probably zero saturation if there's a piano solo - but I'd still try it out. Maybe apply very subtle tape saturation with Softube Tape or Fuse Audio Flywheel.
> 
> I might almost apply a parallel compressor set to let the transient through and a bit more and then saturate the tail of the compressed signal.



Well, you probably have some saturation on master bus, and thats where you can blend piano in - sort of. Saturation also has a tendency to exaggerate pedal etc noises on piano. If you throw compressor after that, it can really bring the crap out.


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## jcrosby (Jul 28, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Yea, but its not _frequently_, that is your word. You see 3 messages, praising saturation, so like I said. in the post, I threw in one negative for the *balance*.
> 
> I recall last time I was wondering why the piano ballad was weird, I found the saturation plugin. It fu.ked up the piano sound. I guess if someone is doing, say, techno stuff, it might just work like magic. Probably will never throw it on a piano, on a piano ballad anymore, with exception of vocals and (maybe a pinch) master bus. Just as an example.


Fair enough. But based on it being described as a 'main suspects' I had the impression this is something you've experienced frequently enough to categorize it as such.

I've put saturation on a piano many times. As someone else pointed out it should be almost inaudible, and typically comes down to the plugin or type you choose. If applied tastefully it shouldn't 'fuck up' a piano, this still sounds like a gain staging issue.

Gain staging is inextricably tangled up with the _theory_ of applying saturation.... Not to mention that the act of recording a piano inevitably results in multiple layers of real-world saturation that naturally occur during the recording process. The choice of a tube mic, the preamps used, tracking the live recording through any outboard equipment, and/or recording to analog tape all result in multiple stages of natural saturation. Whether adding more after-the-fact works in the context of a piece of music's another story that comes down to aesthetic choices..

But a recorded piano has saturation baked into it by default, so the mindset that saturation _fucks up_ a piano kind of suggests you might want to revisit the choices that were made that lead you to this conclusion.


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## PeterN (Jul 28, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Fair enough. But based on it being described as a 'main suspects' I had the impression this is something you've experienced frequently enough to categorize it as such.
> 
> I've put saturation on a piano many times. As someone else pointed out it should be almost inaudible, and typically comes down to the plugin or type you choose. If applied tastefully it shouldn't 'fuck up' a piano, this still sound like a gain staging issue.
> 
> ...



Its all fine, I dont think we have an argument.

Yea, it fu.ked it up. This is the ezkeys, the sound used, not the engine, but its a great sound. Saturation fucked it up.

Dont put saturation on it.

Saturation? dont even try


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## FireGS (Jul 28, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Its all fine, I dont think we have an argument.
> 
> Yea, it fu.ked it up. This is the ezkeys, the sound used, not the engine, but its a great sound. Saturation fucked it up.
> 
> ...


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## PeterN (Jul 28, 2021)

Btw, I recall Greg Wells has a Piano plugin. One of effects is saturation. Correct me if Im wrong. That plugin is a good way to destroy the piano sound. 

Does anyone use it?


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## jcrosby (Jul 28, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Its all fine, I dont think we have an argument.
> 
> Yea, it fu.ked it up. This is the ezkeys, the sound used, not the engine, but its a great sound. Saturation fucked it up.
> 
> ...


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 28, 2021)

I’m backing out of this thread, Homer style.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 28, 2021)

It puts the saturation on its piano. It does this whenever it’s told.

It puts the saturation on its piano or runs 20 laps with Coach Schiano.


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## jcrosby (Jul 28, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> It puts the saturation on its piano. It does this whenever it’s told.


*INT. BED ROOM. NIGHT.

"BUFFALO BILL" stares in mirror, tucked.

BILL: Gazes at self in mirror while applying lip liner and mutters the following words:*

_"Would you saturate me? 
I'd saturate me. 
I'd saturate me hard. 
I'd saturate me so hard"._


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## PeterN (Jul 28, 2021)

But lets say something still. Talking about the risk of over saturating and making it all washy.

This thread was about saturating and mixing. At least, in the title.

Remember, you have a master bus too. If you gonna saturate your tracks at mixing stage, be prepared for a washy sounding final sound. Just saying own experience, if you throw in stuff at mixing stage - such as saturation - and have plugins on master too, you run the risk of wishy washy, and you might not even realize it, until you let the track rest. Do you really need to saturate in mixing? How will you master? Ask yourself that, before saturating tracks. Also ask yourself how your compressor can affect saturation, in mixing. And check it.


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## Russell Anderson (Aug 3, 2021)

obey said:


> To my understanding saturation is a combination of soft knee compression and harmonic distortion (different types emphasize different sets of harmonics) which brings out more helpful frequencies from the signal as well as helping bring up lower signals through gentle compression. It's a tool like any other but it's a very powerful one when used tastefully.
> 
> Ex. The tube saturation that creates warmth people love has a stronger second order harmonic emphases in the saturation and that gentle soft knee compression that comes with it helps round things out and fill up the signal.
> 
> This is my understanding, anyway. I'm happy to learn if I'm wrong!


If you wanna really cook your noodle, a digital compressor is actually a clipper which is actually a waveshaper, but with an attack and release attached to an envelope follower.

So the transfer function, the line of the waveshaper/processing shape in the compressor will distort as it’s beginning to waveshape when there’s shorter and shorter attack/release values. That’s because you’re reaching such short or instant-time values that you’re operating on a per-waveform or faster rate with the amplitude transfer function, resulting in waveshaping.

When you slow that down with an envelope follower, then the transfer function is acting over a longer period than per-wave cycle which means far fewer if any additional harmonics, despite being built on the same thing.

Is that how it works in analogue gear? I’d guess not.

Try messing with a compressor like MCompressor (free), lets you draw your own curve and set att/rel to 0/0. You’ll be straight up waveshaping with whatever custom curve you draw.


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## sostenuto (Sep 27, 2021)

Looking now at Nembrini Audio PSA1000 Bundle @ $38. Saw earlier deals a bit lower, but thinking this Saturation unit may be solid, 'general' toolbox addition ??









PSA1000 Bundle Analog Saturation Unit


Release Version 1.2.6 DOWNLOAD MANUAL PSA1000 DOWNLOAD MANUAL PSA1000 JUNIOR The PSA1000 Analog Saturation Unit plugin is a modern recreation of a '90s classic analog guitar preamp which is used in recording studios all around the world! It is used and "abused" for recording and characterizing...




www.nembriniaudio.com


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## Trevor Meier (Sep 27, 2021)

The free GSat+ plugin by TB Pro Audio is quite good, and the same as what’s used in their CS-5501 channel strip. I also quite like Spectre from Waves Factory


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## Trevor Meier (Sep 27, 2021)

BTW, as I posted in the Decapitator thread… when testing out saturators or anything that generates harmonics, make sure to check that it handles Nyquist reflections properly (aka aliasing).


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 27, 2021)

I'm a sucker and bought Baby Audio's new TAIP plugin on PluginBoutique for abour $34 with some cash bonus I had there. I'm currently experimenting with subtle settings (the saturation/distortion sounds great). But really I have it set on a Korg Polysix VST instance somewhat subtle on the mix slider, and I just keep playing it. And playing it. Unpredictable Chorus setting at 20% wet.

https://babyaud.io/taip-plugin

The only negative I see right now is that the plugin does add a chunk of latency.

I'm going to have to power on the hardware.... OB-6 coming right up!

Edit: 

Edit 2: That was hard to stop playing the OB-6 bass that was gritty that TAIP then made absolutely filthy and wonderful. The mix slider is great, but the Presence, High, and Low sliders are what really help dial it in. So far, and I know it has that new plugin shine, this is very much worth the sale price. Full price? Not sure yet.

I've not yet tried it on anything orchestral (Damage 2 will probably come up soon for me, but that's only tangentially orchestral).


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## sostenuto (Sep 27, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I'm a sucker and bought Baby Audio's new TAIP plugin on PluginBoutique for abour $34 with some cash bonus I had there. I'm currently experimenting with subtle settings (the saturation/distortion sounds great). But really I have it set on a Korg Polysix VST instance somewhat subtle on the mix slider, and I just keep playing it. And playing it. Unpredictable Chorus setting at 20% wet.
> 
> https://babyaud.io/taip-plugin
> 
> ...


Trialing TAIP now. Have Little Radiator and Black Box Design HG-2. Need to follow here while doing some careful testing.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 27, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Trialing TAIP now. Have Little Radiator and Black Box Design HG-2. Need to follow here while doing some careful testing.


It’s a different sound than those, tape vs tube. Not sure which you’ll like better - but I’m curious, so let us know!

It also has enough additional controls, more akin to HG2MS (no m/s on TAIP) to help with mixing in a more subtle and/or targeted way.


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## sostenuto (Sep 28, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> It’s a different sound than those, tape vs tube. Not sure which you’ll like better - but I’m curious, so let us know!
> 
> It also has enough additional controls, more akin to HG2MS (no m/s on TAIP) to help with mixing in a more subtle and/or targeted way.


THX for xtra TAIP info ! 
Dynamic market deals these days .... _PA just added $20. Code bringing HG-2 MS down to $50._ Earlier User posts seem to endorse improvements highly.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 28, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> THX for xtra TAIP info !
> Dynamic market deals these days .... _PA just added $20. Code bringing HG-2 MS down to $50._ Earlier User posts seem to endorse improvements highly.


HG2MS for ~$30 is good. $50 is OK if it really excites you and works great with your material. It can add some body and sparkle (so can Kush 458A... more sparkle, less control). For the music I make, I'll likely use TAIP more than my HG2MS.

I have too many plugins, but find it hard to part with several because of the "but I might need it that one time" syndrome


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## sostenuto (Sep 28, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> HG2MS for ~$30 is good. $50 is OK if it really excites you and works great with your material. It can add some body and sparkle (so can Kush 458A... more sparkle, less control). For the music I make, I'll likely use TAIP more than my HG2MS.
> 
> I have too many plugins, but find it hard to part with several because of the "but I might need it that one time" syndrome


Really helps ! HG-2 has seemed ok, especially at promo cost. Omega TWK same. 
TAIP now top of list, and never would have paid attention until your helpful info. 
Much more enjoyment testing, learning, these days __ plus keyboard play, with VI backing.

Regards


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## Russell Anderson (Sep 28, 2021)

I am really liking SDRR, Digi and Desk modes especially. Or Fuzz and Desk, I forget... Whichever has the “Gated—Smooth” knob on the left. 

Honestly, workflow and emphasis EQ seem to be the two big things for me, and then I’m happy with a few saturation plugins. 

- SDRR and the Kush Omegas for a great sounding saturation of a few flavors
- Phil’s for a bit of fairly transparent tone shaping and bringing a sound very forward
- Two I don’t own, Saturn and Spectre, are two I appreciate for their control and stereo manipulation (especially envelope-following Drive and M/S in Saturn) and I’ll probably get one or both at some point.

- Tupe is one I probably won’t buy, but it sounds excellent and the built-in emphasis EQ is excellent for workflow.
- HG-2MS is one I thought I would love, and I do enjoy it, but for the workflow I just don’t have a practice of bringing it up as often as the other simpler plugins or the more complex ones... It sits at an in-between for me where I just don’t feel I’ll probably use it. 
- For the rest, free plugins, Waveshaping and emphasis/de-emphasis EQ can take you to the ends of the universe, and that may be the way to go if you want to go exploring places you can go with saturation.

If anyone wants to buy HG-2MS, well.... wait for a sale  , but I’m also selling.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 4, 2022)

This one is pretty good and Pluginboutique is running a decent sale at the moment.









RC-20 Retro Color


RC-20 Retro Color, RC-20 Retro Color plugin, buy RC-20 Retro Color, download RC-20 Retro Color trial, XLN Audio RC-20 Retro Color




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