# Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread



## M0rdechai

Hi guys,

For someone thats looking into, you know... all this... starting to make orchestral music with plugins.. it seems that the Infinite Series gets surprisingly little attention on this forum. So much so that I'm starting to wonder if there is some post(s) that I may have missed on why this would suck...

With all the talk around - you know which library - and reading the sample talk forum regularly a lot of pro's and cons regarding 'staple template picks' have been discussed:

- does it have a bass flute (starting with the most important here)
- price
- loading times
- RAM usage
- 'sound'
- Mutes on brass
- Euphonium
- Saxophones
- Chromatic recording vs every other note (or more)
- recording each instrument on its own vs as an ensemble
- 'playability' of a library
etc...

Looking at the few posts on here that mention the Infinite Series by Aaron Venture, I see almost exclusively happy users. and yet the top contenders for a 'solid alround template' on this forum seem to always be the Cinematic Studio Series, the Berlin Series and Spitfire Audio.
And I'm not saying those aren't great. at all.. But why is there so little mention of this series?

It has every instrument recorded seperately. Includes instruments like Euphonium, bass clarinet, saxophones, etc. that other libraries wont. Recorded chromatically. Seems to be very light on performance. Seems to be consistently programmed with good legato and smooth transitions between velocities... I could go on.. 

So my question is; why is this mentioned so little?
Perhaps because this is quite new and most of you guys are already set with your templates and are happy users of above mentioned libs? Is it to expensive? (I do see that it is priced higher than some, but also lower than others..)
Am I simply not hearing that the sound is _obviously way to ...... _ (insert here)?
Please help me understand, because I am seriously thinking about skipping all the CSS, Berlin Series and Spitifire stuff and chose this over it. Am I making a mistake?


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## chocobitz825

its the best IMO. best kept secret. I can't wait for their strings library to come out. It might not be attractive to the common users here who like to complain over articulations and keyswitches and mic positions etc. its not as sexy to talk about compared to BBCSO. The only real issue is that you won't be able to write the same way you normally do with other libraries because you don't really need keyswitches. It might not be the library that satisfies all your needs, but it is a spectacular series that I wish everyone was more passionate about.


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## Zee

Each of those libraries you've mentioned are developed by companies that has been around for at least 10 years they've already established themselves and have the attention of loyal customers before their products are even available and i can assure you when they started they weren't that popular this is just how things work in this market.
Aaron is the new kid on the block(relatively) and their product is actually quite popular compared to other Devs who have been around for longer and in 5 years or so i expect them to be one of those big ones
but what difference does it make anyway if you like the sound and the workflow go for it you'll be the one using it anyway doesn't matter if it's community approved or not


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## pawelmorytko

I've wondered the same thing, I've heard some good reviews and nice demos, and the walkthroughs for the brass had a really lovely dynamic crossfade on the horns which I liked. The only thing I can think of why it's not much spoken about is that it's quite new? (correct me if I'm wrong). Also the marketing is nowhere near as big as Spitfire's for example. And another thing for me personally, and probably for many other people too is that the demos on the website are a little too classical for my ears. I don't compose that kind of music so it is not a very good representative of how it would work in my arsenal unfortunately, as great as it might sound in a classical context.


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## DANIELE

M0rdechai said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> For someone thats looking into, you know... all this... starting to make orchestral music with plugins.. it seems that the Infinite Series gets surprisingly little attention on this forum. So much so that I'm starting to wonder if there is some post(s) that I may have missed on why this would suck...
> 
> With all the talk around - you know which library - and reading the sample talk forum regularly a lot of pro's and cons regarding 'staple template picks' have been discussed:
> 
> - does it have a bass flute (starting with the most important here)
> - price
> - loading times
> - RAM usage
> - 'sound'
> - Mutes on brass
> - Euphonium
> - Saxophones
> - Chromatic recording vs every other note (or more)
> - recording each instrument on its own vs as an ensemble
> - 'playability' of a library
> etc...
> 
> Looking at the few posts on here that mention the Infinite Series by Aaron Venture, I see almost exclusively happy users. and yet the top contenders for a 'solid alround template' on this forum seem to always be the Cinematic Studio Series, the Berlin Series and Spitfire Audio.
> And I'm not saying those aren't great. at all.. But why is there so little mention of this series?
> 
> It has every instrument recorded seperately. Includes instruments like Euphonium, bass clarinet, saxophones, etc. that other libraries wont. Recorded chromatically. Seems to be very light on performance. Seems to be consistently programmed with good legato and smooth transitions between velocities... I could go on..
> 
> So my question is; why is this mentioned so little?
> Perhaps because this is quite new and most of you guys are already set with your templates and are happy users of above mentioned libs? Is it to expensive? (I do see that it is priced higher than some, but also lower than others..)
> Am I simply not hearing that the sound is _obviously way to ...... _ (insert here)?
> Please help me understand, because I am seriously thinking about skipping all the CSS, Berlin Series and Spitifire stuff and chose this over it. Am I making a mistake?



I try to talk about Aaron Instruments every time I can. I love them and I almost use only them in my template. I can't wait for the strings to came out to put them together with SM Strings.

Then the percussions when they will came out (I hope for ethnic too).


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## Guffy

You forgot a very (if not the most) important point.
- Does it sound good?

Personally it's not my top choice in that regard.
That is of course subjective.


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## Hanu_H

Well if you compare the marketing budget of Spitfire Audio and Aaron Venture you will not wonder why there is so much more talk about Spitfire...


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## I like music

I love them. Brass and woodwinds are my primary libraries, because I can shape them exactly as I want. The phrasing is superb. Sample Modeling's brass is the only thing that might do that side as well/better, but then I don't have experience with too many libraries so please do take that into account.

I bought CSS and CSB. They now sit in my template as 'secondary' to the AV stuff because his stuff sounds good enough + is really expressive/gives you control and I can get things done without keyswitching.

That said, CSS and CSB will also stay because I love the tone.

Oh, and also, I load up every woodwind and brass instrument, and the whole lot costs me around 1.5gb in RAM total! Sooo a good space saver too. I _can_ see what people say about the tone of libraries like BWW (which I also think is superb) and the BBCSO. There's something captured in those which is amazing. You might argue that _that_ rawness is missing from the AV stuff, and I feel like that might be a contributor, but that preference varies substantially between people. Also AV isn't as well known yet, so there isn't that marketing/hype around the libraries. That said, super super flexible, light on the computer, a developer that is constantly reviewing and improving his product and giving 1-on-1 service/feedback, and I think you have a pretty solid set of libraries.

Strings will be super interesting!


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## Land of Missing Parts

The main problem with Infinite Winds for someone like me is that the only option is to buy the whole thing for $350, and Cinematic Studio Winds will likely cost less (for CSS/CSB owners) and be closer to what I want. For me, the Cinematic Series is a known quantity. I work with it constantly and it is rock solid.

If I could get just a clarinet or contrabassoon from Infinite Winds a la carte I'd give it a closer look, like I am doing with the new Embertone Bassoon.

Also, my early impression of the winds is that it's a little too "modeled" sounding and synthy. I do find the ease of use and tweak-ability to be enticing though.

The big selling point about not needing key switches--that's not as important to me since my process is heavy on programming and editing, so key switches don't bother me in the least.


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## jneebz

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Also, my early impression of the winds is that it's a little too "modeled" sounding and synthy.


Exactly my thought also.


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## Jonathan Moray

There is absolutely nothing wrong with them, but they are different. Both Sample Modeling and Aaron Venture does sampling quiet differently than most other devs, and both of them don't seem spend lots of money on marketing so they might be bit more "hidden" or secret. Sample Modeling (SM) and Aaron Venture (AV) uses different techniques from each other in their libraries, but i would say for the end user they are not _that _different.

As mentionend before; the Infinite Series, and Aaron Venture, are very new names in the game. Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Alex from Cinematic Studio Series, 8Dio, etc, are well know names, so they often get brought up more.

The thing with Infinite Series is that it doesn't have recorded legato, it's scripted. And, if you ask me, when done as well as Aaron has done it, it doesn't bother me. It also means that it's crazy consistent across the board.

He also records the instruments rather dry (I believe) and phase aligns each sample, meaning that there's a very smooth crossfade between the dynamics layers. You don't get the usual sound of two samples fading into each other like traditional sampling, but more a sample morphing from one dynamic layer to the other; it just sounds so much better than traditional sampling.

The biggest thing tough, from a user perspective, is that both AVs and SMs libraries are like instruments, not recordings of players playing instruments. For example: traditionally samples are recordings of a person performing, the expression is already baked in; the delay of the vibrato, the speed of the vibrato, the pitch and volume fluctuations, etc. With a more modelled approach, like AV and SM, the samples are dead and _*you *_need to be the performance, you need to really play the instruments. Nothing is baked in. They are not as forgiving as traditional samples. But if you know what you're doing you can really make them sing and give them expression that is unobtainable with traditional samples, or at least close to unobtainable.


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## SamiMatar

They are both very good libraries that deserve more attention. I try to minimize the use of key switches in my workflow, so these two libraries were a must-have for me.

Things I like:
- Excellent playability
- Little HD and RAM footprint
- Well thought out soundstage options
- Wide variety of instruments included

Things I'd love to see improvements on:
- Tone. IW Oboe and Clair sound very good. But I'd love to hear airy flutes and smoother bassoons. IB generally sound very good.
- I'd love to hear smoother, more blurred transitions on some wind instruments.
- I'd love to hear more defined and varied staccato/staccatissimo across all instruments.

With that said, these libraries are likely to be immensely useful in everyone's toolbox. Aaron is doing phenomenal work and I cannot wait for future products.


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## Land of Missing Parts

People mention marketing and hype, but to me the important distinction is _familiarity_.

I've spent a lot of time with my Orchestral Tools and Cinematic Series libraries--I know how they work. There's been years worth of talk, videos, and resources created. There's a track record and a sizeable user base. I go into the Members Compositions thread and hear what instruments people are gravitating toward, and how they sound in action.

That stuff matters. You can't write it off as just having an active marketing team.


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## Consona

Land of Missing Parts said:


> If I could get just a clarinet or contrabassoon from Infinite Winds a la carte I'd give it a closer look, like I am doing with the new Embertone Bassoon.


This. I'd buy some instruments, but can't pay for the whole Brass library. That's why I'm waiting for OT's a la carte system instead of buying anything these days. Plus I need to fill up some holes in my template with more playable or different instruments rather than buying whole libraries.


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## shireen

I love Infinite Woodwinds. It is such a fun library. Gonna get Infinite Brass sometime soon too, but I really can't wait to see what he does with the strings!


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## Montisquirrel

I already wrote in another thread that I hope for a nice Black Friday sale on the bundle.
I am following the Infinite Series since the releases and have watched all walkthroughs on Youtube several times. Also checked Google several times and there are almost no forums or reviews talking about it. 

The most important part for me is that it seams be a *lot of fun *playing these instruments. And like said above, you really need to play them, so that is a challenge I like to accept and learn each of the instruments.
Another reason is the free life-time update. Aaron already added some more instruments for free and he said it will be continued. (This is something I only know from my main DAW FL Studio, which I once paid for 15 years ago. I always feel a little bit bad when the next free update arrives).

Maybe I am wrong, but the videos about the Infinite Series seams like they are more easy to play than the Sample Modeling stuff. I mean, more easy to get a good sounding result. But not sure about this.

Has anyone tried the Woods or Brass with a breath/bite controller yet?


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## DANIELE

Montisquirrel said:


> I already wrote in another thread that I hope for a nice Black Friday sale on the bundle.
> I am following the Infinite Series since the releases and have watched all walkthroughs on Youtube several times. Also checked Google several times and there are almost no forums or reviews talking about it.
> 
> The most important part for me is that it seams be a *lot of fun *playing these instruments. And like said above, you really need to play them, so that is a challenge I like to accept and learn each of the instruments.
> Another reason is the free life-time update. Aaron already added some more instruments for free and he said it will be continued. (This is something I only know from my main DAW FL Studio, which I once paid for 15 years ago. I always feel a little bit bad when the next free update arrives).
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but the videos about the Infinite Series seams like they are more easy to play than the Sample Modeling stuff. I mean, more easy to get a good sounding result. But not sure about this.
> 
> Has anyone tried the Woods or Brass with a breath/bite controller yet?



I hope for the black friday we will have the strings too.

I use them with a breath controller and they are great, very playable and intuitive.
Yeah the overall impression is that are easier than SM to use, and infact they are. SM and AV are both great products and I love to have them both.

And finally updating libraries with new instruments for free it is awesome, you feel like your library will grow forever (obviously it will not be but the AV approach is great).

I'd like also to rember anyone out there that if you have suggestions give them to Aaron, it will listen to them and we could all have benefits from it.
He already did great updates with brass after the first release, also based on users suggestions.


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## Jonathan Moray

@mikefrommontreal, I actually think the runs sound quite good, at least better than most libraries. Maybe a little bit on the synthy side at places, but overall not extremely noticeable. This was just something Aaron whipped up very quickly to showcase some runs. With some more time and care you could probably make it sound a lot better.


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## decredis

Guffy said:


> You forgot a very (if not the most) important point.
> - Does it sound good?
> 
> Personally it's not my top choice in that regard.
> That is of course subjective.


I understand SWAM and Chris Hein are both sometimes considered to have sacrificed timbral qualities for the sake of flexibility (in different ways), so I’m guessing if IW is lacking here, this is for similar reasons to SWAM especially? 

Are you able (subjectively, of course) to compare how you’d say the sound of Infinite Woodwinds compares to equivalent libraries from Audiomodelling and Chris Hein?


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## TGV

Jonathan Moray said:


> This was just something Aaron whipped up very quickly to showcase some runs.


From a PR point of view, that would be an unwise move. If something's worth doing, do it properly, especially if it is meant to or seen as showcasing a product. As an excuse, it sounds weak, almost detrimental.

That said, the mp3 you posted sounds fine, if a bit exaggerated in the legato transitions, and somewhat organ-like in the joint runs, but certainly very agile.


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## Jonathan Moray

TGV said:


> From a PR point of view, that would be an unwise move. If something's worth doing, do it properly, especially if it is meant to or seen as showcasing a product. As an excuse, it sounds weak, almost detrimental.
> 
> That said, the mp3 you posted sounds fine, if a bit exaggerated in the legato transitions, and somewhat organ-like in the joint runs, but certainly very agile.



Take it as you will, I was impressed.

Want good sounding runs with other libraries? Well, be ready to spend time tweaking and fixing notes and legato transitions to make it sound right.

Being able to just play something without having to tweak it too much and getting good runs, like in the example? That's something else.

For me, that's a lot more interesting than what it would sound like if he would have curated the runs to work in the libraries favour. By, for example, only using notes with good sounding transitions, or spend an hour tweaking it to make it sound the best it can. I personally want to be able to work fast. I don't want to spend hours and hours tweaking and working against the flaws of a library to make it sound alright, like they do with most demos for libraries, because of course they want their libraries to sound as good as possible, but I want something playable. I find that usually most demos made by companies are, for me, not very telling of how the library is going to work in practice. They are very curated and heavily tweaked to work in the favour of the library. Using tempos that work better for a certain library, or keeping away from faster passages, and I've almost never heard a company release exposed runs like Aaron did.

Maybe someone else feels the same, so I just added that bit of information.


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## I like music

TGV said:


> From a PR point of view, that would be an unwise move. If something's worth doing, do it properly, especially if it is meant to or seen as showcasing a product. As an excuse, it sounds weak, almost detrimental.
> 
> That said, the mp3 you posted sounds fine, if a bit exaggerated in the legato transitions, and somewhat organ-like in the joint runs, but certainly very agile.



I think the opposite is true from a PR perspective. The fact that the dev is happy to, within a very short time, give you a view of how the library would sound if you were to notate the same thing, shows total transparency. So I actually think it is a good shout from him from a PR perspective to put the library, naked, on the forum, exactly how potential customers asked for it.


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## I like music

TGV said:


> From a PR point of view, that would be an unwise move. If something's worth doing, do it properly, especially if it is meant to or seen as showcasing a product. As an excuse, it sounds weak, almost detrimental.
> 
> That said, the mp3 you posted sounds fine, if a bit exaggerated in the legato transitions, and somewhat organ-like in the joint runs, but certainly very agile.



The agility is what I like the most, with this. Yes, I think the timbre will be lesser than the more traditionally sampled and curated libraries, but you have real consistency with these, which I like. Happy to post any examples if people want, if it helps them make up their mind one way or another!


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## pipedr

I've been following the Woodwinds videos, and have been very tempted to purchase. I'm also very impressed by the developer and how he responds to concerns. For example, one thing I missed in the flutes was that breathy sound with the vibrato. With the update, I thought that sounded much better. Also, the free updates are impressive, as several instruments have already been added, and there might be ethnic winds added as well, as mentioned in other threads.

Cory Pelizzari did an excellent review of the woodwinds, commenting especially on the excellent consistency:





Library Spotlight - Infinite Woodwinds


Get it here: https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-woodwinds




vi-control.net





I'm really interested in the saxophones in particular, which I think really benefit from the smooth dynamic changes and controllable growl compared to the conventionally sampled approach. Plus, I like the sound and the attack better than the demos I've heard from SWAM, for example.

What's held me back is what I already own: OT Berlin Woodwinds and 8dio Claire, as well as my own workflow and limitations. The soundstage tools and IR reverb sound very good to me, and it seems pretty easy to switch from a studio to hall to scoring stage sound. However, nothing beats recording in a real hall, and I must say I love the sound of flute long notes, or bassoon shorts, etc. bouncing around at Teldex. Also, I'm a keyboard player and not a woodwind player, so at this point, I don't think I could beat the players in those libraries, even with complete control of vibrato and dynamics. With Claire, for example, I'll select one or another of the arcs or legatos, and think--oh, that's really nice, but there's no way I would have thought of playing the notes that way or even maybe even comprehend the difference in what the sampled player is doing.

And then, there's a few things that maybe don't really matter in the mix, but the trill on the clarinet (as heard in the Gershwin example) sounds good to me, and not synthesized or choppy. BUT...it doesn't have that wooshy flutter of a real or sampled clarinet doing a trill (real clarinet players, help me out here to identify what I'm trying to describe...). And that high note---not quite the strength there that you might get in, say, the Fluffy Audio clarinet--so I suppose in the end, you are a bit limited by what the sampled player can play.

I think the developer has done something new and very interesting in this series, though, so a big Black Friday sale might push me over the fence.

Another tactic which might work could be to release a freebie--for example, I bought Century Brass based on the strength of the freebie legato brass patches.


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## Michael Stibor

Jonathan Moray said:


> @mikefrommontreal, I actually think the runs sound quite good, at least better than most libraries. Maybe a little bit on the synthy side at places, but overall not extremely noticeable. This was just something Aaron whipped up very quickly to showcase some runs. With some more time and care you could probably make it sound a lot better.


You're right, they sound decent for sure. I just deleted my initial post. Seemed a little over the top, and I know whoever made those demos put some work into them. But I just feel that they may turn off some people (like myself) that JUST listen to the demos. I don't feel like they do the program justice. The walk through videos are much better imo.


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## I like music

mikefrommontreal said:


> You're right, they sound decent for sure. I just deleted my initial post. Seemed a little over the top, and I know whoever made those demos put some work into them. But I just feel that they may turn off some people (like myself) that JUST listen to the demos. I don't feel like they do the program justice. The walk through videos are much better imo.



A thought just occurred. Perhaps it is because the perception of the library is that it sits somewhere in between "purely" sampled (even though the library is chromatically sampled) and "modeled" and therefore doesn't have an immediate an obvious draw for "either" camp?

It has a fewer control options than SWAM (although I'd argue, the important controls are all there and comparable, and just as good) and perhaps the phase-aligned aspect of things means that it is a shade different in tone to libraries that "captured" the full room in its entirety. So therefore it has a bit of an identity crisis? From a marketing/PR perspective, perhaps that's an aspect. Either way, I think for one (or very, very few guys) to build it, I'm very excited. I'm sure he'll keep improving these. I do prefer the brass to the woods, for tone.


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## Loïc D

Not owner of AV libraries, but I chime in to mention that the product support is probably one of the best in the market. Frequent updates & fixes, new instruments for free, excellent response time from Aaron.


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## Robert_G

M0rdechai said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> For someone thats looking into, you know... all this... starting to make orchestral music with plugins.. it seems that the Infinite Series gets surprisingly little attention on this forum. So much so that I'm starting to wonder if there is some post(s) that I may have missed on why this would suck...
> 
> With all the talk around - you know which library - and reading the sample talk forum regularly a lot of pro's and cons regarding 'staple template picks' have been discussed:
> 
> - does it have a bass flute (starting with the most important here)
> - price
> - loading times
> - RAM usage
> - 'sound'
> - Mutes on brass
> - Euphonium
> - Saxophones
> - Chromatic recording vs every other note (or more)
> - recording each instrument on its own vs as an ensemble
> - 'playability' of a library
> etc...
> 
> Looking at the few posts on here that mention the Infinite Series by Aaron Venture, I see almost exclusively happy users. and yet the top contenders for a 'solid alround template' on this forum seem to always be the Cinematic Studio Series, the Berlin Series and Spitfire Audio.
> And I'm not saying those aren't great. at all.. But why is there so little mention of this series?
> 
> It has every instrument recorded seperately. Includes instruments like Euphonium, bass clarinet, saxophones, etc. that other libraries wont. Recorded chromatically. Seems to be very light on performance. Seems to be consistently programmed with good legato and smooth transitions between velocities... I could go on..
> 
> So my question is; why is this mentioned so little?
> Perhaps because this is quite new and most of you guys are already set with your templates and are happy users of above mentioned libs? Is it to expensive? (I do see that it is priced higher than some, but also lower than others..)
> Am I simply not hearing that the sound is _obviously way to ...... _ (insert here)?
> Please help me understand, because I am seriously thinking about skipping all the CSS, Berlin Series and Spitifire stuff and chose this over it. Am I making a mistake?



The Infinite series is like an automatic transmission. You get told what gear youre going to drive in. Key switches are like a manual transmission...you decide what gear to drive in.

I will choose the gear i drive in....not some 'smart' computer program.....which is why i drive stick.....which is also why im not interested in the Infinite Series.


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## Jonathan Moray

mikefrommontreal said:


> You're right, they sound decent for sure. I just deleted my initial post. Seemed a little over the top, and I know whoever made those demos put some work into them. But I just feel that they may turn off some people (like myself) that JUST listen to the demos. I don't feel like they do the program justice. The walk through videos are much better imo.



Oh yes, I completely agree. I think the demos on the web page are not the best they could be. Personally I would have like to see something more modern, not epic, just 80-90s.

I would say this has been the standard with all of these modelled instrument; they get released, the demos are "meh", nothing super great about them, except for the technology behind them. But after a couple of months, when users have had their hands on them for a while, great things start to happen. Just look at SM Brass. Most of the official demos on release did not peak my interest very much. Some of the demos that got added later are quite nice, but nothing mindblowing. Then we get users posting examples like Sam's Star Wars mockup. Where they, to my ears, use it in a way that's just next level. Even Blakus usage of it in some of his tests were good examples as well.

I've also had the pleasure to play and mix SM Brass on a few occasions for a couple of different people. And that really sold me on it, because I got a sound I was very happy with and playability that no other library could match. There are people who say SM Brass can't do epic, it can. The sound I like probably differs from what other people like and so it's hard to make demos that cater to everyone. With that said, I would like a broad spectrum of demos tough for these libraries.

I was actually going to post in the old thread for both AV Brass/Winds and SM Strings and see if anyone had made anything they wanted to share since it's been out for a while now. Still planing on doing it, but just haven't gotten around to it. Waiting for these thread to die down a little so we don't spam all the AV and SM threads to the top at the same time.


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## MartinH.

Lack of dedicated marketing department maybe? Aaron Venture seems to be very much focused on developing and improving his products instead of hyping them up. He seems very responsive with answers and even updates.

As far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with them at all. But since I don't "play in" parts, I'm less interested in playable libraries



Robert_G said:


> The Infinite series is like an automatic transmission. You get told what gear youre going to drive in. Key switches are like a manual transmission...you decide what gear to drive in.
> 
> I will choose the gear i drive in....not some 'smart' computer program.....which is why i drive stick.....which is also why im not interested in the Infinite Series.



Does the analogy also hold up far enough to also make this one true: I always thought I prefer driving manual till I tried automatic once and now I don't want to go back?


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## Geocranium

I don't know about other people here, but the first thing that piques my interest in a sample library is a phenomenal demo. A good example is the Andy Blaney demos for different Spitfire products or the Sascha Knorr demos for OT. This at least proves to me that the library has some incredible potential. Of course I do more research outside of that, but an outstanding demo is sort of a requirement for me to even consider a library.

So far, I haven't been absolutely blown away by any demos of the instruments. The demos on their website definitely don't blow me away. If someone can point me towards a really stellar mockup done with them, it'll probably go onto my radar.


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## Robert_G

MartinH. said:


> Does the analogy also hold up far enough to also make this one true: I always thought I prefer driving manual till I tried automatic once and now I don't want to go back?



Absolutely.

....but real men drive stick...


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## Jonathan Moray

Robert_G said:


> The Infinite series is like an automatic transmission. You get told what gear youre going to drive in. Key switches are like a manual transmission...you decide what gear to drive in.
> 
> I will choose the gear i drive in....not some 'smart' computer program.....which is why i drive stick.....which is also why im not interested in the Infinite Series.



Do you own any modelled or semi-modelled instruments?

Because I would say that's not a very good analogy. There's _*no *_key switches behind the scenes. So there's no "automatic" switching, like with a automatic drive, it doesn't tell you what gear to drive in. It's more like an electric car maybe; no gears or multi-gear transmissions because it doesn't need them, it just a continuous flow of energy. The harder you press the pedal the faster you go, simple really. It dons't have to make any choices of gear.

You get more freedom of choice with the modelled approach compared to other instruments, because you are not restricted by sloppy transitions, or the library not being able to do runs, or the vibrato being to fast or too slow for what you want.

Just do a simple back and forth between two notes with most libraries and they will fall apart.



Geocranium said:


> I don't know about other people here, but the first thing that piques my interest in a sample library is a phenomenal demo. A good example is the Andy Blaney demos for different Spitfire products or the Sascha Knorr demos for OT. This at least proves to me that the library has some incredible potential. Of course I do more research outside of that, but an outstanding demo is sort of a requirement for me to even consider a library.
> 
> So far, I haven't been absolutely blown away by any demos of the instruments. The demos on their website definitely don't blow me away. If someone can point me towards a really stellar mockup done with them, it'll probably go onto my radar.



Agree. A great demo is a good way to sell a product. But have you ever seen anyone reach either Saschas or Andys proficiency with the libraries? I don't think I have. Most of the time I find the demos are written in such a way to highlight the strengths of the library. It also helps that both Sascha and Andy are masters at what they do, both in their compositions and their usage of virtual instruments. Which, in my opinion, makes it so that I don't find those demos representative of the final product. Same with 8Dio they do really good demos for a lot their libraries, but the library themselves are not always all that.

I would say a good walktrough is a better representation of what the library really is. But good demos are also important, because of course you want to see what the true potential of the library is, even you yourself might never reach it.

Hopefully user will post more demos and one will resonate better with you, and with me. I'm still waiting to get blown away.


----------



## Robert_G

Jonathan Moray said:


> Do you own any modelled or semi-modelled instruments?
> 
> Because I would say that's not a very good analogy. There's _*no *_key switches behind the scenes. So there's no "automatic" switching, like with a automatic drive, it doesn't tell you what gear to drive in. It's more like an electric car maybe; no gears or multi-gear transmissions because it doesn't need them, it just a continuous flow of energy. The harder you press the pedal the faster you go, simple really. It dons't have to make any choices of gear.
> 
> You get more freedom of choice with the modelled approach compared to other instruments, because you are not restricted by sloppy transitions, or the library not being able to do runs, or the vibrato being to fast or too slow for what you want.
> 
> Just do a simple back and forth between two notes with most libraries and they will fall apart.



I understand what youre saying, but your words confirm even more that these libraries seem to take all the control out of my hands. Maybe Im just real old school.

So instead of an auto tranny....would a continueously variable tranny (CVT) like they intoduced in the Nissan Murano back in the day be a better anology?


----------



## Geocranium

Jonathan Moray said:


> But have you ever seen anyone reach either Saschas or Andys proficiency with the libraries? I don't think I have. Most of the time I find the demos are written in such a way to highlight the strengths of the library. It also helps that both Sascha and Andy are masters at what they do, both in their compositions and their usage of virtual instruments.



For me, it gives me something to aspire to. Their work proves that it's not literally impossible to achieve a sound like that. It makes me study my mixing, orchestration, writing, and it makes me train my ears. I've got so much more out of libraries by listening to mockups with them that I really like the sound of. To me it says, "Hey, if I study this, I can make something like theirs, because I already own all the tools they have." 

If your library showcases shoddy work, then to me you've given me nothing to aspire to. I can already do amateur sounding stuff with the libraries I own. If it hasn't been proven to me that it can even make a sound that I like, I'm not really interested in investing the time and money trying to squeeze out some unknown potential.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Robert_G said:


> I understand what youre saying, but your words confirm even more that these libraries seem to take all the control out of my hands. Maybe Im just real old school.
> 
> So instead of an auto tranny....would a continueously variable tranny (CVT) like they intoduced in the Nissan Murano back in the day be a better anology?



Closer, but no. Because we are not talking about cars. It's hard to compare it. I feel like a lot of libraries have big limitations, and some limitations that make them only excel at certain things. If I stick with the car terms for just a little bit more. It's as if just because it only has one legato speed, or one vibrato speed, or missing dynamics, or anything, it's more like:

_



"Yeah, this car only turns well to the left, so try not to take any harsh right turns because the car don't really do them very well."
"Ok. What about gears?"
"Yeah, so we skipped the first gear and only have gears up til 4th gear. So it's gonna be a slow start but it's a real smooth drive as long as you don't want to drive very fast."
"Alright I'll keep that in mind. If I want to drive fast i'll use another car."

Click to expand...

_
I feel the same with most libraries, you have to match multiple libraries, or have a plethora of libraries at your disposal to Frankenstein them together for different tasks.
Not saying the modelled approach is perfect, but I do believe it's the future.

You didn't answer; but I guess you don't own any modelled instruments? Any specific limitations of the modelled approach you don't like?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Geocranium said:


> For me, it gives me something to aspire to. Their work proves that it's not literally impossible to achieve a sound like that. It makes me study my mixing, orchestration, writing, and it makes me train my ears. I've got so much more out of libraries by listening to mockups with them that I really like the sound of. To me it says, "Hey, if I study this, I can make something like theirs, because I already own all the tools they have."
> 
> If your library showcases shoddy work, then to me you've given me nothing to aspire to. I can already do amateur sounding stuff with the libraries I own. If it hasn't been proven to me that it can even make a sound that I like, I'm not really interested in investing the time and money trying to squeeze out some unknown potential.



I agree -- somewhat. But I've also heard enough bad demos with good libraries to not write them of completely. As I stated before, we all have different tastes and aspirations. Different demos (genres, eras, etc) resonate with different people. I try to look beyond that and see the library for what it is, and what it can do for me in my music and in my hands. All of us also have different workflows.


----------



## Robert_G

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not saying the modelled approach is perfect, but I do believe it's the future.
> 
> You didn't answer; but I guess you don't own any modelled instruments? Any specific limitations of the modelled approach you don't like?



I dont own any, but i undetstand the approach. It applies to many aspects of life....almost like a dumming down of things.

Like the car that brakes for you before you rearend someone....its not a bad thing to own....but it can cause someone to get comfortable with careless driving.


Dumming down is a common thing now....make stuff work in a way that causes humans to think less. The end result is not pretty.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Robert_G said:


> I dont own any, but i undetstand the approach. It applies to many aspects of life....almost like a dumming down of things.
> 
> Like the car that brakes for you before you rearend someone....its not a bad thing to own....but it can cause someone to get comfortable with careless driving.
> 
> 
> Dumming down is a common thing now....make stuff work in a way that causes humans to think less. The end result is not pretty.



Not sure you do. But it's fine. It's not for everyone and I'm not here to try and convince you. You just don't like, don't really need a reason, just not your thing. You seem to have found something that works for you and that's great.

I agree that dumming down is bad, but I think keyswitches is dumming down because you don't have to learn how to perform the articulations, they are already performed for you. Want a trill? Press the trill keyswitch, and play one note -- there you go a performance of a trill, exactly as recorded. But that's also the only trill you will have, no flexibility, bake in expression and all.

But the dumming down thing is a very philosophical question. What is smart and what is dum? The average of IQ is getting higher and higher. But having high IQ doesn't necessarily mean your smart... Although, a lot of people use that as a measurement for it. Because defining smart is a very hard thing to do since it's fluid / situational. But that's a topic for another day... and another forum.


----------



## Robert_G

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not sure you do. But it's fine. It's not for everyone and I'm not here to try and convince you. You just don't like, don't really need a reason, just not your thing. You seem to have found something that works for you and that's great.



Im also as stubborn as a mule and hate change....just thought id throw that in to be fair to you.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Robert_G said:


> Im also as stubborn as a mule and hate change....just thought id throw that in to be fair to you.



I'm in utter shock.


----------



## Hanu_H

Robert_G said:


> I dont own any, but i undetstand the approach. It applies to many aspects of life....almost like a dumming down of things.
> 
> Like the car that brakes for you before you rearend someone....its not a bad thing to own....but it can cause someone to get comfortable with careless driving.
> 
> 
> Dumming down is a common thing now....make stuff work in a way that causes humans to think less. The end result is not pretty.


Yeah, you are definitely wrong here. Using modelled instruments(or Sample Modelling instruments) is not dumming down, just the opposite. Using sample libraries is choosing a right recorded note to a right place and hoping it will fit. It's like a puzzle. It usually work pretty well if you write for the samples and hide the flaws. With modelled instruments you have to perform everything and you really have to know how the real instruments work. Making modelled instruments sound good and performed you have to use a lot more time than with sample libraries. I think that is the biggest issue with them and it will need a lot work from the developers in the future.


----------



## I like music

Robert_G said:


> I dont own any, but i undetstand the approach. It applies to many aspects of life....almost like a dumming down of things.
> 
> Like the car that brakes for you before you rearend someone....its not a bad thing to own....but





Hanu_H said:


> Yeah, you are definitely wrong here. Using modelled instruments(or Sample Modelling instruments) is not dumming down, just the opposite. Using sample libraries is choosing a right recorded note to a right place and hoping it will fit. It's like a puzzle. It usually work pretty well if you write for the samples and hide the flaws. With modelled instruments you have to perform everything and you really have to know how the real instruments work. Making modelled instruments sound good and performed you have to use a lot more time than with sample libraries. I think that is the biggest issue with them and it will need a lot work from the developers in the future.



I agree with your view here. In this analogy, I'd say modelled instruments are the ones that are closer to "driving stick" since you have to translate your musical intent into a note, and there's always that "ah, but I could make it sound _even more _like I heard it in my head" and the possibility to do so!

That said, I think there's still work to do to get the tone quality and timbre to match a well sampled "traditional" library, but I keep the hope that in 5/10 years time we'll have even better "modelled/hybrid" approaches. It is a compromise that works for me right now. However, I do sometimes, just before I fall asleep, think "hmmm maybe I _should_ just stick CSB and CSS in there instead because they do sound lush."

Guess we'll never be happy.


----------



## chocobitz825

It’s often a problem here that people are so into the specs that I wonder how often people are really listening to libraries objectively. I would love to see what would happen if a developer put out a library, said nothing about how it was made or how many articulations, or samples, etc.

It probably wouldn’t sell because people have become so dependent upon those specs to determine if it is worthy even though quite often those specs don’t really equate to the experience they wanted. If people didn’t know how Aaron venture’s brass and woodwinds were made, would their ears still think it sounds “synthy”? is the preconceived idea that the method used should have flaws actually tainting their listening experience?


----------



## I like music

chocobitz825 said:


> It’s often a problem here that people are so into the specs that I wonder how often people are really listening to libraries objectively. I would love to see what would happen if a developer put out a library, said nothing about how it was made or how many articulations, or samples, etc.
> 
> It probably wouldn’t sell because people have become so dependent upon those specs to determine if it is worthy even though quite often those specs don’t really equate to the experience they wanted. If people didn’t know how Aaron venture’s brass and woodwinds were made, would their ears still think it sounds “synthy”? is the preconceived idea that the method used should have flaws actually tainting their listening experience?



This definitely feeds into it. At some point, those biases creep in. I do this with a lot of libraries that I don't own.

The reality probably is that if I heard it without being told about what it was, I'd simply be impressed. The BBCSO is a good example of how the marketing, and the anti-marketing side of things, affect people in both directions. Also, I'm sure the fact that I don't own it (and can't afford to own it right now) makes me think "yeah, it probably isn't very good." After all, the mind needs coping mechanisms.

Either way, yes, the AV libraries will have timbral idiosyncracies that I'm sure people won't like. For me, those are minor. For me, in some cases, they are gorgeous. I think the trumpets and horns in particular are superb. Bones have nice nice transitions. The flute is the only thing where it is a bit behind the other instruments perhaps? That said, do some runs with the flute, play around with the vibrato controls, and I feel like many people's doubts would be lessened.


----------



## Dan

I just found out about the Infinite Series two days ago after not having spent much time looking for new libraries during the last year or so. For me it is like a dream come true. I just bought the winds, and after a few hours of testing those out, I bought the brass also.

I can see how some people prefer the usual approach of working with samples, where you can get very decent results pretty fast with dedicated articulations that are already well performed and sound awesome out of the box most of the time.

But for me personally, I always get annoyed when I can't get something to sound just like I had imagined because the articulations that are available have some unevenness or just don't fit the passage I am writing in terms of speed, note attack or some other thing. Then I get kind of obsessed with getting it right and end up wasting a lot of time or I lose interest in the piece because I feel I have hit a dead end.

After being a user of the Infinite series for only a few hours now, I get the feeling that you can achieve incredibly consistent sounding results with this in an intuitive way. Now of course I will have to find out in the long term if I really can get everything I want out of it, but for now I am absolutely delighted. I feel that this method of sampling is really the way to go for the future.

As for why the Infinite Series isn't getting as much attention as some other libraries out there, I can only imagine that some people prefer the reliability of dedicated articulations, where you just know what you get from the start for certain types of music, without shaping every single note yourself as you have to do with Infinite. I feel the Infinite libraries give the user a stunning amount of flexibility and freedom, but also the responsibility to really form the performance on their own. And I can see how that probably doesn't work for everybody. 

Given the fact that there aren't really that many sound examples of the Infinite Series available apart from some walkthroughs (or I am not very good at finding them), I attached a test of Infinite Brass with the main theme from the Finale of Bruckners 8th symphony. Just playing by ear, not by the score, so the instrumentation is a bit different. I love how (at least to me) the short notes and the long notes really sound like one performance and not like two articulations side by side. I am also kind of relieved that the brass seems to sound pretty decent in a bigger setting – I was a bit worried about that after listening to the Holst demo on the Aaron Venture website...

Personally, I would love to hear more demos from users of the Infinity Series – iI think that would certainly help to get more people interested in the possibilities of this library. I plan to share some as soon as I have time to write something decent. 

Can't wait for the strings to come out by the way!


----------



## Syneast

Personally I'm waiting to hear the sound of Aarons string ensembles before I make my judgement. Brass and winds are easy enough to fake with filters and simulated legato, but I have yet to hear a convinving example of a modeled string ensemble.

If Aaron somehow manages to create a string ensemble out of solo strings that can play both convincing spiccatos, legatos, pp dynamics and even tremolo and pizzicato(!), without using keyswitches and with the same agility that the brass and winds have, I'm in. Before that, I'm holding off on my investment.


----------



## Dan

You certainly have a point. I am also curious if and how he can pull this off. Very curious indeed.


----------



## DANIELE

Syneast said:


> Personally I'm waiting to hear the sound of Aarons string ensembles before I make my judgement. Brass and winds are easy enough to fake with filters and simulated legato, but I have yet to hear a convinving example of a modeled string ensemble.
> 
> If Aaron somehow manages to create a string ensemble out of solo strings that can play both convincing spiccatos, legatos, pp dynamics and even tremolo and pizzicato(!), without using keyswitches and with the same agility that the brass and winds have, I'm in. Before that, I'm holding off on my investment.



Aaron libraries are sample based not physical modeled.


----------



## TGV

DANIELE said:


> Aaron libraries are sample based not physical modeled.


"Modeled" is not the same as "physically modeled". Seen the size of the library, it's reasonable that there is some kind of modeling of the sound beyond raw samples and cross-fading, e.g. using filters.


----------



## El Buhdai

I'm personally a pretty big fan of these libraries because it only took me about a year and a half to become absolutely sick of traditional libraries. Keyswitches, inconsistent volume, timbre, and sound between patches and sometimes even notes. Not to mention, some samples are just so stiff that trying to stitch them together into music became a pain, and they would sound blocky. Granted, I've achieved some solid results with my old libraries after I learned their quirks, but I got tired of stitching instead of composing.

There's definitely a discussion to be had about the loss of tone with Infinite libraries. For some instruments there's little to no loss compared to traditional libraries. For others, the downsides are _very _apparent. The tedium of making music with traditional libraries is a much greater downside to me than a loss in tone.

Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are divisive for sure. These libraries highlight the tug-of-war struggle between sample tone and sample musicality. Infinite series libraries don't have the best tone, but in my opinion the way those samples connect to form music is just far more believable than traditional sample libraries. For me, no amount of authentic room space in my samples can make up for the awkward note attacks/releases, non-vib to vib phasing, inconsistent note timbre, and noticeable dynamics crossfading you get with most sample libraries. You can give me the most beautiful two samples ever recorded, but if they don't sound musical when strung together, I don't see the point.

Infinite Orchestra will always have its fans (and I'm one of them) because I suspect they appeal to a niche of people who have similar gripes with sample libraries as the ones I've laid out here, but Infinite Orchestra will always have its dedicated skeptics who prefer room tone and authenticity in the samples themselves. I suspect they don't want to rain all over Aaron's parade since he's the little guy punching up, so they remain a (mostly) silent majority.

P.S.: Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are small and light enough for me to, in theory, have two full sections of the orchestra at my fingertips during travel on my Surface Pro with 8GB of RAM. That is amazing.


----------



## DANIELE

TGV said:


> "Modeled" is not the same as "physically modeled". Seen the size of the library, it's reasonable that there is some kind of modeling of the sound beyond raw samples and cross-fading, e.g. using filters.



Sorry, I automatically read phisically modeled.


----------



## MartinH.

chocobitz825 said:


> It’s often a problem here that people are so into the specs that I wonder how often people are really listening to libraries objectively. I would love to see what would happen if a developer put out a library, said nothing about how it was made or how many articulations, or samples, etc.
> 
> It probably wouldn’t sell because people have become so dependent upon those specs to determine if it is worthy even though quite often those specs don’t really equate to the experience they wanted. If people didn’t know how Aaron venture’s brass and woodwinds were made, would their ears still think it sounds “synthy”? is the preconceived idea that the method used should have flaws actually tainting their listening experience?



My guess is either it gets judged by expectations created by artwork/company/marketing or we'll think they're "trying to scam us" and throw a fit and write an 80 page long thread about how it's "unprofessional" not to tell us any specs... or something like that. Then someone might start telling a heartwrenching tale about how a library that had no specs published, once killed their grandpa in WW2 and it's all downhill from there, because without solid specs it's all up for speculation and no reasonable objective arguments can be made before release (or at least it's much harder).


By the way, have you tried the airwindows plugins? They don't even have artwork on their UIs, because "in mix, _nobody can hear_ your _screen_". You should check them out, everyone should:





VSTs | Airwindows







www.airwindows.com




Probably the best place to start is watching some of the videos on his youtube channel to hear sound examples, and make a list of what you might be interested in (click on the youtube logo to get to his playlist of "bestellsers") :

and then head back to his website and check out the second link under the dog logo, which is a download for all the plugins. Or scroll far down and see the extensive list of plugins on the bottom left. Each page has some more details in text form and individual downloads, if that's what you prefer.
He just shares them freely on his site and if you find one that you like and frequently use, please subscribe to his patreon or donate to him directly. You can read more about how he arrived at that business model on his patreon page. He's really breaking the mold for how a business building plugins can look and since he focuses on development and doesn't really advertise, he could use some word-of-mouth help. I didn't even know about his company till a couple weeks ago and he has been at it for over a decade! I searched for it here after discovering it and found very few mentions, but those were all positive.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

The thread title can create the impression that there actually might be something "wrong" (as in: buggy, or: sounds absolutely terrible) with these libraries. Perhaps it would be fair to adapt the title to something less misleading?


----------



## M0rdechai

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The thread title can create the impression that there actually might be something "wrong" (as in: buggy, or: sounds absolutely terrible) with these libraries. Perhaps it would be fair to adapt the title to something less misleading?


true. edited


----------



## aaronventure

Hey folks! I'll just answer some common questions I saw in the thread but will not otherwise invade on the discussion.

The physically-modeled vs sample-based discussion is... I don't think I could call Infinite (so far) physically-modeled. While it is a frank-ton of math and psycho-acoustics, it's still based on samples. So if that math and psycho-acoustics part is what you want to call "modeled", then sure.

Infinite Brass will receive a pretty big update in the coming weeks with a complete trumpet rework (old ones are getting thrown out completely, much like the horns back in January), and improvements to almost every instrument (except the euphoniums—these bad boys are rock solid and I couldn't be happier with them). There will be some overdue bugfixes and some new QoL features as well that everyone will absolutely love and which will make your life 10x easier for sure. These will be then ported over to Infinite Woodwinds sometime in early 2020.

This will line up right for the Anniversary Event for Infinite Brass, since the library was originally released at the end of last November.

Because of this update, the strings have been pushed back a bit. I understand that might piss some people off and waiting a few more months might be annoying, but ultimately I prefer to update existing products to releasing new ones. I was a composer long before I was a developer and the existing products have people who have paid for them with their hard-earned cash, and I feel it's my sacred duty to update these first rather than release new stuff when the existing products can be updated.

All of this is pretty much unthreaded ground. I'm not working based on a model here and am not exactly dealing with issues other devs have already solved. Nearly two years later, I'm constantly learning new stuff (some day I might write a paper about the whole thing). With every new library, new challenges arise and as I tackle these I find better ways of dealing with past challenges so I go back and update existing products. All of the improvements that you'll find in the upcoming Infinite Brass update are a direct result of working on both Strings and Percussion, as well as customer feedback.

About that, people's feedback has really been invaluable. I think I answered every single email I ever got and addressed every concern or critique send to me that way. I'm only human after all and I can't think of every idea or a solution myself, so for some I rely on you, the users, to tell me what you want or need or think would be a good idea. As I've said, most of the improvements so far have been triggered by feedback.

I know that's not what you're used to in this industry but I built the whole thing from the ground up with everyday tweaking in mind because that's what I wanted when I was just a composer. *Your words will be heard, answered to and very likely acted upon here.* The way it works is that usually someone sends me feedback which then makes me assume a different mindset as I try to address it and find ways to improve upon whatever is being critiqued. There have been so many of these light-bulb moments I've lost count. Approaches to things I'm taking now that today seem so obvious but have simply been unfathomable a year ago, etc.

So whether you're a user or just an interested party, send in your concerns, thoughts and critique. If you have something to say, I would be absolutely thrilled to talk to you. And really, folks, keep being great.

Carry on now.

Best,


----------



## Saxer

Great to hear about the new trumpets. The update of the horns was really a night and day improvement! They sound beautiful now and I love the playability!


----------



## DANIELE

Ehi Aaron, great infos and I love to hear you are making a new big update to IB. About Euphonium I'm using it a lot, more than I expected, great addition to the library.

About the Strings may I say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?

I'm just kidding take your time to bring us another great library. So, are you planning to release it in 2020 or could we expect it to have it for Christmas?

Anyway as I said before your care on "old" libraries is priceless and made your libraries almost a living thing. I'm always so excited because this is how I work too (in other context obviously) and this is real progress I think.


----------



## Consona

Saxer said:


> Great to hear about the new trumpets. The update of the horns was really a night and day improvement! They sound beautiful now and I love the playability!


Demos?!


----------



## El Buhdai

Saxer said:


> Great to hear about the new trumpets. The update of the horns was really a night and day improvement! They sound beautiful now and I love the playability!



I'm really excited for the trumpet overhaul, too. I think they're the only real weakness in an otherwise fantastic brass library. 



DANIELE said:


> About Euphonium I'm using it a lot, more than I expected, great addition to the library.



Do you have any tips on using the Euphonium in a musical context? General usage? Fun voices to combine it with? I have no idea what its place in the orchestra is as it kinda just sounds like a slightly altered version of the French Horn at first glance, and watching educational videos about it didn't help me much. Any thoughts or advice on using the instrument would be nice.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Do you have any tips on using the Euphonium in a musical context? General usage? Fun voices to combine it with? I have no idea what its place in the orchestra is as it kinda just sounds like a slightly altered version of the French Horn at first glance, and watching educational videos about it didn't help me much. Any thoughts or advice on using the instrument would be nice.



Well, I'm not an expert musician but Euphonium could be considered like a smaller and more aggressive Tuba. Actualy I'm using it a lot mainly to double or underline trombones and/or horns. It adds real power to those instruments, especially trombones. It creates a fuller sound used like this. I tried it for example to play the first measures of Warcraft Movie OST (the first track of the OST) and it is so good at giving more power to trombones.


----------



## Eptesicus

aaronventure said:


> Hey folks! I'll just answer some common questions I saw in the thread but will not otherwise invade on the discussion.
> 
> The physically-modeled vs sample-based discussion is... I don't think I could call Infinite (so far) physically-modeled. While it is a frank-ton of math and psycho-acoustics, it's still based on samples. So if that math and psycho-acoustics part is what you want to call "modeled", then sure.
> 
> Infinite Brass will receive a pretty big update in the coming weeks with a complete trumpet rework (old ones are getting thrown out completely, much like the horns back in January), and improvements to almost every instrument (except the euphoniums—these bad boys are rock solid and I couldn't be happier with them). There will be some overdue bugfixes and some new QoL features as well that everyone will absolutely love and which will make your life 10x easier for sure. These will be then ported over to Infinite Woodwinds sometime in early 2020.
> 
> This will line up right for the Anniversary Event for Infinite Brass, since the library was originally released at the end of last November.
> 
> Because of this update, the strings have been pushed back a bit. I understand that might piss some people off and waiting a few more months might be annoying, but ultimately I prefer to update existing products to releasing new ones. I was a composer long before I was a developer and the existing products have people who have paid for them with their hard-earned cash, and I feel it's my sacred duty to update these first rather than release new stuff when the existing products can be updated.
> 
> All of this is pretty much unthreaded ground. I'm not working based on a model here and am not exactly dealing with issues other devs have already solved. Nearly two years later, I'm constantly learning new stuff (some day I might write a paper about the whole thing). With every new library, new challenges arise and as I tackle these I find better ways of dealing with past challenges so I go back and update existing products. All of the improvements that you'll find in the upcoming Infinite Brass update are a direct result of working on both Strings and Percussion, as well as customer feedback.
> 
> About that, people's feedback has really been invaluable. I think I answered every single email I ever got and addressed every concern or critique send to me that way. I'm only human after all and I can't think of every idea or a solution myself, so for some I rely on you, the users, to tell me what you want or need or think would be a good idea. As I've said, most of the improvements so far have been triggered by feedback.
> 
> I know that's not what you're used to in this industry but I built the whole thing from the ground up with everyday tweaking in mind because that's what I wanted when I was just a composer. *Your words will be heard, answered to and very likely acted upon here.* The way it works is that usually someone sends me feedback which then makes me assume a different mindset as I try to address it and find ways to improve upon whatever is being critiqued. There have been so many of these light-bulb moments I've lost count. Approaches to things I'm taking now that today seem so obvious but have simply been unfathomable a year ago, etc.
> 
> So whether you're a user or just an interested party, send in your concerns, thoughts and critique. If you have something to say, I would be absolutely thrilled to talk to you. And really, folks, keep being great.
> 
> Carry on now.
> 
> Best,




"Anniversary Event for Infinite Brass"...at the end of November, which is Black Friday week... does this mean a sale/crazy good price?

If so, you have my attention..


----------



## I like music

Consona said:


> Demos?!



I am working on a mockup of FC from ST. People are probably sick of seeing this across a couple of threads, but here you can hear two Infinite Brass horns playing in quite a mellow range (you can play those lines 10 different ways and the horns will always comply!) Please keep in mind this in the hands of an amateur. Also, yes those cellos are causing a bit of a loud booming affect. I think the SM team said they are already working on an update:


----------



## I like music

Also, great to hear about the updates. The horns improvement was substantial. The trumpets were the weaker link. If the improvement is anything like it was with the horns, I'll dance naked on the rooftops (I won't but you know what I mean)


----------



## robgb

The Infinite series sounds great, but the prices are prohibitively high for me.


----------



## purple

Because it isn't a Spitfire™ library.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

robgb said:


> They sound great, but the prices are prohibitively high for me.



I'm torn when it comes to pricing; on one hand, yes it's on the more expensive side, on the other hand you get an EXTENSIVE amount of instruments, that are well made and seem to be very consistent across the board, making all instruments playable and behave the same. To me at least that's worth a lot.

I don't think any other library includes this many instruments in one package.

Also, Aaron is a class act and I'm almost willing to pay the high price just to support him and his company. He makes good instruments, he does really good support, and he seems very genuine generally and care about the user and the product. Both Woodwinds and Brass has been updated numerous times already, and not just small updates, substantial updates.

Why do you think they are "prohibitively" high? Just personal opinion / finance? Or anything specific that makes the price too high for you?


----------



## Kony

robgb said:


> The Infinite series sounds great, but the prices are prohibitively high for me.





Jonathan Moray said:


> I'm torn when it comes to pricing; on one hand, yes it's on the more expensive side, on the other hand you get an EXTENSIVE amount of instruments, that are well made and seem to be very consistent across the board, making all instruments playable and behave the same. To me at least that's worth a lot.
> 
> I don't think any other library includes this many instruments in one package.
> 
> Also, Aaron is a class act and I'm almost willing to pay the high price just to support him and his company. He makes good instruments, he does really good support, and he seems very genuine generally and care about the user and the product. Both Woodwinds and Brass has been updated numerous times already, and not just small updates, substantial updates.
> 
> Why do you think they are "prohibitively" high? Just personal opinion / finance? Or anything specific that makes the price too high for you?


Plus the fact that these libraries will not only be updated continuously, but that future expansions/new instruments added also for free. Genuine class developer in my book!


----------



## purple

DANIELE said:


> Well, I'm not an expert musician but Euphonium could be considered like a smaller and more aggressive Tuba. Actualy I'm using it a lot mainly to double or underline trombones and/or horns. It adds real power to those instruments, especially trombones. It creates a fuller sound used like this. I tried it for example to play the first measures of Warcraft Movie OST (the first track of the OST) and it is so good at giving more power to trombones.


Its most common use in classical music is as a soloistic instrument in the wind band world. When not playing solos it is usually doubling the tuba in octaves or playing with the trombones or horns. It makes for a good supporting voice in a horn choir as well.


----------



## Eptesicus

Kony said:


> Plus the fact that these libraries will not only be updated continuously, but that future expansions/new instruments added also for free. Genuine class developer in my book!



Yes, i must admit, i am impressed with the developer's ethos and commitment to continue improving things and deliver free updates.

I have had many libraries with issues, that never get fixed or looked at again. I get an email back saying the problem will be fixed but it never is. 

I really want to buy a new brass library before the end of the year. It will either be this, MSB or Junkie XL brass (if it gets released). I can't decide though.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> I'm torn when it comes to pricing; on one hand, yes it's on the more expensive side, on the other hand you get an EXTENSIVE amount of instruments, that are well made and seem to be very consistent across the board, making all instruments playable and behave the same. To me at least that's worth a lot.
> 
> I don't think any other library includes this many instruments in one package.
> 
> Also, Aaron is a class act and I'm almost willing to pay the high price just to support him and his company. He makes good instruments, he does really good support, and he seems very genuine generally and care about the user and the product. Both Woodwinds and Brass has been updated numerous times already, and not just small updates, substantial updates.
> 
> Why do you think they are "prohibitively" high? Just personal opinion / finance? Or anything specific that makes the price too high for you?



I quote this. I doesn't work in the industry, I have a completely different work so I have no cashback but personal pleasure from buying instruments in general, so some of my money fall in those things and will never be back. From my practical point of view they should be a bad investment but I love composing so much that I doesn't regret buying this kind of instruments because, as previously mentioned many times:

1) I'm an engineer and I love to experience new technologies;
2) I love the way Aaron work with his libraries by taking care of them, keeping them updated always to the last technologies he find useful;
3) I also love how Aaron listen to us by trying to implement as many improvements as he can, if he find them right for the purpose of the libraries. I'll never forget how he worked on Brass in the first times by listening to us all;
4) I love to write music, not growing mad to choose articulations and then make them work for what I'd like to achieve. Many times in the past I felt limited by articulation at my disposal and I had to give up on some ideas because of that. Once I tried to write the first measures of Star Wars main theme and it takes me hours, not to write the notes but to choose right articulations to make it sounds good;
5) He adds new intruments and you could also suggest what to add, you have a huge palette of instruments and it will grow up for sure;
6) His libraries are very light on resources, they takes very small amounts of ram and hard disk space.

If you find another developer doing this in the VI market let me know. I think that devs like this should always be awarded.

Obviously I don't want to look at other people's wallet, I'd like only to point out a great quality-cost ratio here.

I'm writing an OST for a short movie, I'll post it on VI when it is finished to show how it sounds, I only used IB, IW and SM strings for orchestral instrumentation, plus many synths and other things obviously. Since the director wanted an epic soundtrack you will listen to this instrument in that context too, the are great and the most I use them, the most I learn new things about their usage.

Oh and... Aaron, if you will trow out a paper about this I'll buy it for sure, I'm very curious about the tech and math you used here.

I'm also very curious about the percussions.


----------



## robgb

Jonathan Moray said:


> Why do you think they are "prohibitively" high? Just personal opinion / finance? Or anything specific that makes the price too high for you


Purely personal. I can't even begin to guess what these libraries cost to develop. I simply can't see spending this kind of money to license one.


----------



## Dan

So I spent my Sunday playing around again with Infinite Woodwinds and Brass... Can't express how happy I am with the versatility of these libraries.

For anyone interested in more audio examples: Here is a short excerpt from the the first movement of the Symphony "Mathis der Maler" by Paul Hindemith.
All Woodwinds and Brass are from the Infinite Series. The strings are Cinematic Studio Strings.

All Infinite instruments use the default reverb settings (Medium Hall). Also, all tonal instruments (except for the Cinematic Studio Strings, which I had to turn louder by a few dB) are at exactly the same volume setting, so it's a good example to hear how dynamic the library is and how well balanced the different instruments are in an orchestral setting.
Also, I did no mixing or EQ'ing at all. The sound you hear is right out of the box.

Last but not least: The midi file this is based on was created by David Siu at kunstderfuge.


----------



## El Buhdai

Chiming in on price...

The price is a little high on the brass, but only if it's the first library you buy from him, and *only* if you look at the price by itself and don't think about the value you're getting here compared to other libraries. Like most developers, Aaron offers educational discounts (by the way, this student thanks you... with his little bit of money) and loyalty discounts for those who aren't students.

But even without the discounts, you get a set of amazing mutes for each of the instruments. Where many brass libraries come with only straight mutes, or no mutes at all, Infinite Brass comes with several. I've been able to use Infinite Brass in a jazz context because of this. Not to mention, they're still being improved and receiving expansions.

The woodwinds are honestly very well priced for what they are, and in my opinion may be $50 too cheap when you actually look at what's on offer. I think they're just cheaper because woodwinds are in lower demand. If you look at something cheaper like Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, you only get the core instruments: piccolo, flutes, oboes, clarinets, a bass clarinet, and bassoons. You don't even get an English Horn if the website is to be believed (What?!). You get an Alto Flute as a bonus. With Infinite Woodwinds, you get Alto Flutes, Bass Flutes, a Bass Oboe, English Horn (should be standard for a woodwinds library but unless I'm blind, it apparently isn't according to Spitfire), Bass Clarinet, Contrabass Clarinet, Contrabassoon, Eb Clarinet, etc. The saxophones alone make this worth the extra money. 2 Alto, 2 Tenor, and 2 Baritone. And instead of just existing to add "perceived value", they're actually usable.

_All_ of these instruments have the same level of functionality, and they're still being improved. If you like the sound of Infinite Woodwinds but you look at this and think the price is too high, there probably isn't anything that would make it worth the price for you.


----------



## Dan

I made another mockup: the very last bars from Gustav Mahler's 5th Symphony.

This time I used only Infinite Woodwinds and Brass because none of my string libraries could handle Mahler's writing, so I left them out...

Anyway, about the mockup: I guess I just wanted to see if Infinite Brass and Woodwinds could perform this kind of music well enough to sound convincing, especially the trills and runs and the repeating figures in the brass. I think the result is not too bad.

The original midi file this is based on was created by Ben Boot at kunstderfuge.


----------



## Eptesicus

Dan said:


> I made another mockup: the very last bars from Gustav Mahler's 5th Symphony.
> 
> This time I used only Infinite Woodwinds and Brass because none of my string libraries could handle Mahler's writing, so I left them out... (Just out of curiosity: Do you guys know a string library that could play something like this for 10 bars without sounding awkward? I'm kind of putting all my hope in Infinite Strings at this point... )
> 
> View attachment 23858
> 
> 
> Anyway, about the mockup: I guess I just wanted to see if Infinite Brass and Woodwinds could perform this kind of music well enough to sound convincing, especially the trills and runs and the repeating figures in the brass. I think the result is not too bad.
> 
> The original midi file this is based on was created by Ben Boot at kunstderfuge.




That is impressive from the versatility/speed side of things.

I think the brass sound more realistic than the woodwinds there. On occasion the winds sound a bit synthy. The brass has had more time and updates though so maybe that will be improved on the woodwind side of things.

That is an extremely hard passage of music for VSTs to play though so the results are pretty damn good.


----------



## richard kurek

aaron's email said he will have a sale around black friday (anniversary sale)


----------



## Dan

Eptesicus said:


> That is impressive from the versatility/speed side of things.
> 
> I think the brass sound more realistic than the woodwinds there. On occasion the winds sound a bit synthy. The brass has had more time and updates though so maybe that will be improved on the woodwind side of things.
> 
> That is an extremely hard passage of music for VSTs to play though so the results are pretty damn good.



I agree with your assessment. For a better comparison: Here are the woodwind and brass sections separately. I did a little more polishing for the woodwinds just now, softened the attacks on some runs etc...

There is indeed still room for improvement for some transition sounds. Luckily Aaron seems to be very committed to regularly providing great updates, so things might sound even better soon.

In terms of flexibility though, I couldn't be happier. Every single note in this mockup is shaped only via velocity and CC1. So if there is a certain musical phrase I want, I know I can most certainly achieve a pretty good approximation of it using a very simple and straightforward approach.


----------



## pempekumtanesi

I didn't know about this libraries.


----------



## DANIELE

pempekumtanesi said:


> I didn't know about this libraries.



Now you know!


----------



## servandus

Thanks a lot to everyone for uploading those audio clips and demos. Makes it a lot easier to get a clearer picture of the library when you can hear it in the hands of different users.



aaronventure said:


> I was a composer long before I was a developer and the existing products have people who have paid for them with their hard-earned cash, and I feel it's my sacred duty to update these first rather than release new stuff when the existing products can be updated.



Hats off.



aaronventure said:


> Nearly two years later, I'm constantly learning new stuff (some day I might write a paper about the whole thing).



Please do! I'm sure it will be extremely interesting for many of us.



aaronventure said:


> I know that's not what you're used to in this industry but I built the whole thing from the ground up with everyday tweaking in mind because that's what I wanted when I was just a composer. *Your words will be heard, answered to and very likely acted upon here.*
> 
> So whether you're a user or just an interested party, send in your concerns, thoughts and critique. If you have something to say, I would be absolutely thrilled to talk to you. And really, folks, keep being great.



Sold. You can count me among your users very soon. Leaving aside the quality of the libraries, there's probably nothing I value more in a developer than this attitude of cooperation with the users. But I warn you: my wife's a flutist...  ... 

Keep up the good work!


----------



## El Buhdai

servandus said:


> Sold. You can count me among your users very soon. Leaving aside the quality of the libraries, there's probably nothing I value more in a developer than this attitude of cooperation with the users. But I warn you: my wife's a flutist...  ...
> 
> Keep up the good work!



If that's what you value, look no further than this. I've had fairly extensive correspondence with him for about a month sending feedback and ideas. He's very receptive and very much an open book. Even with some of the problems I have with the tone of some of the instruments, these are still my favorite libraries for their respective sections (especially the woodwinds) just for the simple fact that they sound so musical when you write for them. That, to me, is more important than a 100% authentic tone.

I know I put my money in the right hands. I tend to be the kind of person that likes to support the little guy as opposed to the big boys, because the little guys are the ones that push their industry forward when others fall into complacency or a set method of doing things.

He also has quite a strong ear and shared some of my criticisms but just hasn't gotten around to the work required to fix them yet (he's managing over 50 instruments in the libraries he's released so far, and don't even get me started on the Strings!).

These are unique libraries and they're certainly not for everyone, but I think all us Infinite Orchestra fans would be happy to have another person join the party!


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> If that's what you value, look no further than this. I've had fairly extensive correspondence with him for about a month sending feedback and ideas. He's very receptive and very much an open book. Even with some of the problems I have with the tone of some of the instruments, these are still my favorite libraries for their respective sections (especially the woodwinds) just for the simple fact that they sound so musical when you write for them. That, to me, is more important than a 100% authentic tone.
> 
> I know I put my money in the right hands. I tend to be the kind of person that likes to support the little guy as opposed to the big boys, because the little guys are the ones that push their industry forward when others fall into complacency or a set method of doing things.
> 
> He also has quite a strong ear and shared some of my criticisms but just hasn't gotten around to the work required to fix them yet (he's managing over 50 instruments in the libraries he's released so far, and don't even get me started on the Strings!).
> 
> These are unique libraries and they're certainly not for everyone, but I think all us Infinite Orchestra fans would be happy to have another person join the party!



150%. My favourite libraries, and also favourite developer. Sort of came out of nowhere (as far as I was concerned). In fact, I nearly missed the launch of the brass. I was waiting to buy CSB and keeping and eye on MSB (I think). I was randomly reading a thread and someone mentioned AV IB as a library to look out for. Nearly didn't bother with it, but checked out the demos and "damn! sold!"

To me, the biggest sign is a developer willing to put naked demos up on a forum in response to a user asking "hey, can you do some woodwind runs for me please?" How many developers would dare to come onto VI Control and say "Sure man, what do you want to hear from this library?"

Keep going. Strings will be hard enough so feel free to take a breather and a rest before you go diving into those!!!


----------



## Dan

For those interested: Here's some playing around with the Infinite Clarinet.


----------



## 5Lives

Dan said:


> For those interested: Here's some playing around with the Infinite Clarinet.



Great job! What strings are those?


----------



## Dan

5Lives said:


> Great job! What strings are those?



Cinematic Studio Strings


----------



## richard kurek

Dan said:


> For those interested: Here's some playing around with the Infinite Clarinet.


breath of fresh air to hear this bravo!


----------



## 5Lives

I really appreciate that Aaron shares MIDI files for his products. I’m always surprised more developers don’t do that - BBCSO being the only other one I’ve come across that has it.

The playability of these seems unmatched. Would be curious to hear somebody compare the same part with Berlin or CineWinds or Spitfire if they have them.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Dan said:


> For those interested: Here's some playing around with the Infinite Clarinet.


While I'm not into the clarinet sound, I _am_ blown away by the composition itself. Great work! I'm guessing you are a Prokofiev fan.


----------



## El Buhdai

Land of Missing Parts said:


> While I'm not into the clarinet sound, I _am_ blown away by the composition itself. Great work! I'm guessing you are a Prokofiev fan.



I have to agree about the sound of the clarinet here. I'm not a huge fan of it either, but these libraries seem to be capable of several different tones for each instrument. You can kind of pick the tone that you want for your instruments without even using any external effects. And once you add those into the mix (pun intended), most instruments can sound almost exactly how you want them to. Here's a simpler line with a bit of a warmer tone (achieved only through built-in settings) that's right in your face. Glides included.


----------



## El Buhdai

5Lives said:


> I really appreciate that Aaron shares MIDI files for his products. I’m always surprised more developers don’t do that - BBCSO being the only other one I’ve come across that has it.
> 
> The playability of these seems unmatched. Would be curious to hear somebody compare the same part with Berlin or CineWinds or Spitfire if they have them.



You and me both, pal. It's a little discouraging to listen to the demos for your new library, open the library up on your own system and think "Why doesn't mine sound like that?" Thanks to the MIDI, I just loaded the Rhapsody in Blue clarinet part into my DAW, adjusted the tempo, and I had a moment of excitement as I thought "oh my god... mine sounds exactly like that!"

And yeah, you're getting this for the playability. SM instruments have some similar flexibility, but you lose even more tone with those instruments. I'm no pro with these libraries, but I can share more examples from any instrument if you'd like. I'll even do melodies from your favorite scores. Let me know.


----------



## JT

I'm glad that this thread came up. I haven't paid attention to the Infinite series. My bad. But from what I've seen tonight, I think this is going to be on my black Friday list. 

And with the inclusion of Euphoniums and saxophones, I can do a wind ensemble/concert band mockup. I don't know why other developers don't include these instruments but I'm sold.


----------



## Dan

El Buhdai said:


> I have to agree about the sound of the clarinet here. I'm not a huge fan of it either, but these libraries seem to be capable of several different tones for each instrument. You can kind of pick the tone that you want for your instruments without even using any external effects. And once you add those into the mix (pun intended), most instruments can sound almost exactly how you want them to. Here's a simpler line with a bit of a warmer tone (achieved only through built-in settings) that's right in your face. Glides included.



I agree, one can achieve different tones.

Just now I tried out something lyrical on the Clarinet: Brahms' Clarinet Quintet. Sadly I realized halfway through that Brahms wrote this for a Clarinet in A which can play lower than the B♭ Clarinet... so two low notes at the end are missing.

Based on a midi file by Reinier B. Bakels


----------



## pipedr

Very nice use of the clarinets, guys. The bends in the cantina piece and the long notes in the Brahms are awesome.


----------



## 5Lives

El Buhdai said:


> I'm no pro with these libraries, but I can share more examples from any instrument if you'd like. I'll even do melodies from your favorite scores. Let me know.



That’s a nice offer. Do you have other woodwind libraries? I’d be interested to hear the same melody lines compared to those libraries as the tone is really the main question for me with IWW.


----------



## El Buhdai

5Lives said:


> That’s a nice offer. Do you have other woodwind libraries? I’d be interested to hear the same melody lines compared to those libraries as the tone is really the main question for me with IWW.



Unfortunately all I have is Hollywood Woodwinds, which is probably not the best comparison. 

I doubt there are very many libraries that could do this line in the same way for the simple fact that most libraries don't really try to do Clarinet glides. They're not often used in an orchestral context. You could play a drier version of it without the glides though. If you own any woodwinds libraries and want to PM me a line, I can try my best to replicate it with Infinite Woodwinds. I'd be happy to. When I got these libraries I had almost nothing to go by other than the walkthrough videos and a few small demos on VIC.


----------



## 5Lives

El Buhdai said:


> If you own any woodwinds libraries and want to PM me a line, I can try my best to replicate it with Infinite Woodwinds. I'd be happy to.



I very (very) quickly mocked up a flute section from Princess Leia's theme on Berlin Woodwinds Flute 1 Legacy and CineWinds Solo Flute. An exercise perhaps I should do more to understand the libraries I own - I find CineWinds to be rather clicky / noisy compared to Berlin, which sounds much smoother.

If you have a chance, would be curious to hear how Infinite Woodwind's flute sounds with this! Cheers!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Nice. I'll bite. Here is a version done with Berlin Woodwinds Expansion B Flute.


----------



## Steve Wheeler

Dan said:


> For those interested: Here's some playing around with the Infinite Clarinet.



I'm curious on the strings: was this primarily using the CSS marcato patches?


----------



## El Buhdai

5Lives said:


> I very (very) quickly mocked up a flute section from Princess Leia's theme on Berlin Woodwinds Flute 1 Legacy and CineWinds Solo Flute. An exercise perhaps I should do more to understand the libraries I own - I find CineWinds to be rather clicky / noisy compared to Berlin, which sounds much smoother.
> 
> If you have a chance, would be curious to hear how Infinite Woodwind's flute sounds with this! Cheers!



Cinewinds has a much better tone than Berlin here, but it also has some finnicky/slightly glitchy sounding attacks and releases. Here's the Infinite version with 3 flutes, slowed down to be closer to the tempo in the actual score. The tone on the Infinite Woodwinds flutes is the weakest of the three in my opinion. The flutes in Infinite Woodwinds seem to be the biggest weak point of the library, but if you already have Berlin and CineWinds (or any other quality flute) to fall back on you should be fine. You'll get a lot of bonus instruments you don't get with other libraries, and some way more flexible and agile versions of the woodwinds you already have.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I'm not really too impressed with any of the version of Leia's Theme posted here. But if I had to choose one it would be Infinite Woodwinds. It's the most consistent and doesn't have as many imperfections and quirks as the other ones. @Land of Missing Parts BWW Exp B as second for consistency, and maybe @5Lives CineWinds for tone. BWW Exp B only having a single velocity layer helps a lot with the consistency of the tone, legato, and most of all, the vibrato.

@El Buhdai, did you use anything else, other than vibrato and dynamics with IWW? Because I believe it would help to add some slight harmonics in places. The one thing, and this is a problem across everything modelled/semi-modelled (or whatever you want to call it), it often sounds too steril, it's too perfect. But at least with this approach you control the imperfections.

Adding a bit of a shelf EQ from 8k also helped with the tone of IWW in my opinion.



@El Buhdai, @Land of Missing Parts, @5Lives, or anyone else.

If you'd like I have a track you could compare next. I've recently listened a bit to the score for The Passion of The Christ, and it has some really hauntingly beautiful melodies. Especially in the track 'Peter Denies Jesus' there's a really good flute part. There's actually two flute parts; the ethnic flutes doing the bending right at the beginning, and the main melody. Both parts would be interesting to see which libraries might be able to pull it off. I know BWW, nor IWW, has any ethnic flutes, yet, but standard flute bends should do.

The piece is not extremely advanced or hard to play, but it is rather agile in parts, and it would be interesting to see how the different libraries handla that without tripping up.

John Debney - Peter Denies Jesus (The Passion of The Christ)


----------



## Dan

Steve Wheeler said:


> I'm curious on the strings: was this primarily using the CSS marcato patches?



It uses mostly spiccato, only very few marcato notes.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

If anyone wants to do the mockup for _Peter Denies Jesus_, here's a rough midi of it.

The midi is made for instruments where the vibrato is only an on / off switch so there's barley any ramps. If your going to use something like IWW, or any other library with gradual vibrato, you will need to change it to ramps. I'm using CC2 as vibrato and CC1 as dynamics. No other CCs used, only CC11 at 127 at the start of the track so if you have that assigned to anything other than volume you might want to remove it.

Right now I have three version:
*CineWinds* (CineSamples)
*Symphonic Woodwinds* (Spitfire)
*Berlin Woodwinds* (Orchestral Tools) - This is the Flute from Inspire which means that it's the legacy flute I believe and also not the full version. I might be able to get a version of the "real" BWW later.


----------



## Eptesicus

I think the one thing those Leia flute demos highlight is that NONE of them can do the repeated note at the start of the phrase convincingly.

A big problem with samples, generally. One of the few libraries that can do that well is Soaring Strings as they actually sampled rebows.

Don't know how you would do it with winds. I guess you would sample "reblows"


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Eptesicus said:


> I think the one thing those Leia flute demos highlight is that NONE of them can do the repeated note at the start of the phrase convincingly.
> 
> A big problem with samples, generally. One of the few libraries that can do that well is Soaring Strings as they actually sampled rebows.
> 
> Don't know how you would do it with winds. I guess you would sample "reblows"



I agree. Rebows and "reblows", as well as vibrato, are big problems when dealing with samples generally. And that was evident with the Leia demos.

Another thing that often gets me is going back and forth between two notes for an extended period of time, just a simple rocking motion for a few bars. But since barley anyone sample RR for legato and longs you very quickly become painfully aware of the limitations of samples. It's usually fine if it's buried far in the background.


----------



## Eptesicus

Jonathan Moray said:


> I agree. Rebows and "reblows", as well as vibrato, are big problems when dealing with samples generally. And that was evident with the Leia demos.
> 
> Another thing that often gets me is going back and forth between two notes for an extended period of time, just a simple rocking motion for a few bars. But since barley anyone sample RR for legato and longs you very quickly become painfully aware of the limitations of samples. It's usually fine if it's buried far in the background.



It surprises me how few companies sample reblows and rebows. It makes a massive difference. It's why I think soaring strings has probably the best and most agile legato of all. I have had to layer it in to tracks with CSS as it simply copes better with some repetitive arpeggios phrases.


----------



## Dan

Thank you for those great flute demos, guys!

Now I just had to try and see what it would sound like with an Infinite Solo Flute, not an ensemble.
Full disclosure: I took control of most of the library's features to shape the sound as beautifully as I could.






I also brought the flute up really close so there's no hiding in the reverb.

I think it doesn't sound too bad to be honest in terms of the performance. That's what I like about Inifinite Libraries: Even with the slightest change in Velocity or CC whatever, you can completely change the phrasing. Really endless possibilities.

EDIT: For example, I just noticed that the attack of the repeated note at around 8, almost 9 seconds in the track is still a bit too harsh and sounds out of place. Now if I simply play around with the velocity of that note I can shape the attack to my liking and probably get it to sound even smoother. (I think the mistake here was to make its attack higher that the attack of the previous note, so it seems to "jump out"). I'm sure some users would find it tiresome to have to look after every little detail, but for me personally it is great because it gives me the possibility to get really close to how I want the performance to be.


----------



## Dan

Jonathan Moray said:


> If anyone wants to do the mockup for _Peter Denies Jesus_, here's a rough midi of it.
> 
> The midi is made for instruments where the vibrato is only an on / off switch so there's barley any ramps. If your going to use something like IWW, or any other library with gradual vibrato, you will need to change it to ramps. I'm using CC2 as vibrato and CC1 as dynamics. No other CCs used, only CC11 at 127 at the start of the track so if you have that assigned to anything other than volume you might want to remove it.
> 
> Right now I have three version:
> *CineWinds* (CineSamples)
> *Symphonic Woodwinds* (Spitfire)
> *Berlin Woodwinds* (Orchestral Tools) - This is the Flute from Inspire which means that it's the legacy flute I believe and also not the full version. I might be able to get a version of the "real" BWW later.



Okay, so here's my Infinite version of this. 

I kept it really simple this time, using only Velocity and CC1 for Dynamics (which I changed at a few places to better fit the Infinite Flute). 
Vibrato settings stay the same throughout, but I turned up Breath Noise by a fixed amount throughout the whole piece to make it sound a bit more like an ethnic flute...


----------



## Dan

Jonathan Moray said:


> I agree. Rebows and "reblows", as well as vibrato, are big problems when dealing with samples generally. And that was evident with the Leia demos.
> 
> Another thing that often gets me is going back and forth between two notes for an extended period of time, just a simple rocking motion for a few bars. But since barley anyone sample RR for legato and longs you very quickly become painfully aware of the limitations of samples. It's usually fine if it's buried far in the background.



I think that especially in those cases the Infinite Libraries *really* have something to offer.
Each note attack and transition is ever so slightly different each time, so you can really get repetitive.

Attached are two examples with the Infinite Flute.

The first one is just two notes repeating. All with exactly the same note velocity. All with the exact same level of CC1. The Instrument is doing all the subtle variation.

The second one is an arpeggio. Same thing regarding velocity and CC1.

If you additionally alter that performance in terms of velocity and dynamics, you can really get something out of it.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Dan said:


> Thank you for those great flute demos, guys!
> 
> Now I just had to try and see what it would sound like with an Infinite Solo Flute, not an ensemble.
> Full disclosure: I took control of most of the library's features to shape the sound as beautifully as I could.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also brought the flute up really close so there's no hiding in the reverb.
> 
> I think it doesn't sound too bad to be honest in terms of the performance. That's what I like about Inifinite Libraries: Even with the slightest change in Velocity or CC whatever, you can completely change the phrasing. Really endless possibilities.
> 
> EDIT: For example, I just noticed that the attack of the repeated note at around 8, almost 9 seconds in the track is still a bit too harsh and sounds out of place. Now if I simply play around with the velocity of that note I can shape the attack to my liking and probably get it to sound even smoother. (I think the mistake here was to make its attack higher that the attack of the previous note, so it seems to "jump out"). I'm sure some users would find it tiresome to have to look after every little detail, but for me personally it is great because it gives me the possibility to get really close to how I want the performance to be.



As I thought; Infinite Woodwinds does the repeated notes quite well, it just depends on in whose hands it's in, since you really have total control over it. If you play it with too low of a velocity it will sound disconnected by a too noticeably fade in, while too high velocity will make it sound like a sforzando / marcato and that will also make noticeably disconnected. You have to find the sweet spot for where it still sounds fluid and connected. But at least you have the option to tweak it to your liking with Infinite Woodwinds. Wheres with other libraries it's really finicky to make in work, if you can make it work at all.

@El Buhdai s Leia version hade the best repeated notes as well.



Dan said:


> Okay, so here's my Infinite version of this.
> 
> I kept it really simple this time, using only Velocity and CC1 for Dynamics (which I changed at a few places to better fit the Infinite Flute).
> Vibrato settings stay the same throughout, but I turned up Breath Noise by a fixed amount throughout the whole piece to make it sound a bit more like an ethnic flute...



Sounds decent. A bit too much vibrato, and it comes in too quickly in most places, but since I know the vibrato is controllable that's not much of a problem. It's not a fault of the library, more of a creative decision. Getting the right vibrato with other libraries is near impossible for me since they are recorded the way they are, I just have to settle and it will have to be _good enough _because I cant do anything about it... I hate to settle for good enough because of the limitations of a library or because I cant make it behave the way I want it to.



Dan said:


> I think that especially in those cases the Infinite Libraries *really* have something to offer.
> Each note attack and transition is ever so slightly different each time, so you can really get repetitive.
> 
> Attached are two examples with the Infinite Flute.
> 
> The first one is just two notes repeating. All with exactly the same note velocity. All with the exact same level of CC1. The Instrument is doing all the subtle variation.
> 
> The second one is an arpeggio. Same thing regarding velocity and CC1.
> 
> If you additionally alter that performance in terms of velocity and dynamics, you can really get something out of it.



Yes, exactly. It's the same with Sample Modeling; slight differences make all the difference. And just slightly changing the cc and velocity of each note will make is sound even better.

Trying to not get my hopes up too much for Infinite Strings, time passes faster if I don't wait for it, but it hard with this whole thread...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Jonathan Moray said:


> If anyone wants to do the mockup for _Peter Denies Jesus_, here's a rough midi of it.
> 
> The midi is made for instruments where the vibrato is only an on / off switch so there's barley any ramps. If your going to use something like IWW, or any other library with gradual vibrato, you will need to change it to ramps. I'm using CC2 as vibrato and CC1 as dynamics. No other CCs used, only CC11 at 127 at the start of the track so if you have that assigned to anything other than volume you might want to remove it.
> 
> Right now I have three version:
> *CineWinds* (CineSamples)
> *Symphonic Woodwinds* (Spitfire)
> *Berlin Woodwinds* (Orchestral Tools) - This is the Flute from Inspire which means that it's the legacy flute I believe and also not the full version. I might be able to get a version of the "real" BWW later.


Here's BWW Exp B playing The Passion of the Christ song. The other examples are on the dry side, so I did the same, though I think there's a lot of tail in the actual soundtrack version.

I agree about the problem of re-blows, and there's a thread going on about that same issue for strings.





String libraries with manual rebow on the same note...


Hy, could you tell me what are the libraries that can do that without any keyswitch or foot pedal.... Just repeat one note and the bow changes. Rebow on repeated notes . Thanks. I think Tina guo 2 does it...




vi-control.net





It will be interesting to see what Cinematic Studio Winds brings to the table, as the strings and brass offer re-b(l)owing.

I really like my BWW Exp B, but it's mostly made to handle the lyrical lines with connected notes. For shorts I usually switch over to BWW (Legacy). The in-between cases are the hardest.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Here's BWW Exp B playing the Passion of the Christ song. The other examples are on the dry side, so I did the same, though I think there's a lot of tail in the actual soundtrack version.
> 
> I agree about the problem of re-blows, and there's a thread going on about that same issue for strings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> String libraries with manual rebow on the same note...
> 
> 
> Hy, could you tell me what are the libraries that can do that without any keyswitch or foot pedal.... Just repeat one note and the bow changes. Rebow on repeated notes . Thanks. I think Tina guo 2 does it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really like my BWW Exp B, but it's mostly made to handle the lyrical lines with connected notes. For shorts I usually switch over to BWW (Legacy). The in-between cases are the hardest.



Yes, I kept the tracks in their default loaded state, no EQ or Verb. You can hide a lot of flaws with reverb. I find it more interesting to hear what they would sound like out of the box, not mixed. In the original soundtrack there's quite a lot of reverb. Throwing a good reverb on it would have made it more cinematic / dramatic and closer to the original, but not as interesting when comparing samples.

I gotta say I really like the passion (no pun intended) in the BWW Exp B, you can hear they were developed with solo lines in mind. The gradual vibrato is great. I would say it's recorded that way, right? No crossfade between non vib and vib?

But there's a problem I've heard *a lot *with BWW Exp B, and it can be heard here as well. It's when going from legato to gradual vibrato (low velocity I think). You can hear it clearly @10s. This would be because they recorded the legato with vibrato. So there's a abrupt change when going from legato with vibrato to gradual vibrato sustain.


----------



## re-peat

Several moments in your example where you can hear stacked samples, *Land*.
Lots of libraries suffer from this and it puts me off completely, especially with solo instruments.

_


----------



## Jonathan Moray

re-peat said:


> Several moments in your example where you can hear stacked samples, *Land*.
> Lots of libraries suffer from this and it puts me off completely, especially with solo instruments.
> 
> _



I agree, it's a huge problem with traditional sampling. Works alright for bigger sections, but with exposed solo lines, it's very jarring.

Although I honestly cant hear it too much in Lands version, and it shouldn't be a problem with BWW Exp B since it's only a single dynamic layer. For me it's only noticeable between legato and sustains. Anywhere else you can hear it? Or are referring to the crossfades between legato to sustain?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

re-peat said:


> Several moments in your example where you can hear stacked samples, *Land*.


I'd like to better understand what you mean Piet. Can you give more detail? BWW Exp B is one dynamic layer of course, but maybe you are hearing it in the legatos when it transitions between notes?

EDIT: @Jonathan Moray beat me to it, right as I was posting.


----------



## NoamL

Dan said:


> For those interested: Here's some playing around with the Infinite Clarinet.



John Williams imitations are one thing, but Sergei Prokofiev imitations, _THAT'S_ impressive, thumbs up!



Eptesicus said:


> I think the one thing those Leia flute demos highlight is that NONE of them can do the repeated note at the start of the phrase convincingly.
> 
> A big problem with samples, generally. One of the few libraries that can do that well is Soaring Strings as they actually sampled rebows.
> 
> Don't know how you would do it with winds. I guess you would sample "reblows"



Cinematic Studio Strings has true sampled rebowing and Cinematic Studio Brass has true sampled retonguing, so Cinematic Studio Woodwinds will possibly have this feature as well.

All of these woodwind examples from different libraries are okay but they remind me of where brass libraries were at circa 2014. There's a lot more potential to unlock. Last year I bought Spitfire Studio Woodwinds very cheaply as a stopgap measure for mockups, and I'm not gonna buy any other winds until CSW comes out. Even if CSW isn't ultimately the best woodwind library ever, I'm at least waiting to comparison shop.

On this forum we often compare libraries on the basis of their strengths but I think a comparison of their weaknesses is more realistic. For each library what is the one or two unavoidable flaws that you will have to work _*around*_ every single time you use that library? For example whenever I use a string library that doesn't have true rebows it turns out to be an issue. It's just one of the most idiomatic things strings can play and it almost always sounds horrible and unrealistic when there's no sustain RRs or rebow sample. Or another example, the #1 flaw with Sample Modeling Brass is that you have to position and spatialize it. I've heard people create great results with that and also some very obviously not-convincing ones, so, knowing my own limitations in that skillset, it's not for me.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I think we all are excited for CSW. If Alex track record is anything to go by it's no doubt going to be amazing. Once the Cinematic Studio Series is completed that's probably going to be the my main collection as far as traditional sampling goes. It's the closes I've gotten to traditional sampling feeling like the more abstract semi-modelling approach. But sadly it will most likely still be limited and hindered by the downsides of traditional sampling.



NoamL said:


> On this forum we often compare libraries on the basis of their strengths but I think a comparison of their weaknesses is more realistic. For each library what is the one or two unavoidable flaws that you will have to work _*around*_ every single time you use that library? For example whenever I use a string library that doesn't have true rebows it turns out to be an issue. It's just one of the most idiomatic things strings can play and it almost always sounds horrible and unrealistic when there's no sustain RRs or rebow sample. Or another example, the #1 flaw with Sampling Brass is that you have to position and spatialize it. I've heard people create great results with that and also some very obviously not-convincing ones, so, knowing my own limitations in that skillset, I'd never buy Sampling Brass.



Yes! Exactly this. That's why I don't buy libraries based on the company demos because they are usually written to the strength of a library to make it sound as good as possible, which is understandable from a business perspective. But I want to know what a library can't do and what it will struggle to do. Of course knowing it's strengths is important as well, but that's usually more obvious from demos and walkthroughs.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

NoamL said:


> For each library what is the one or two unavoidable flaws that you will have to work _*around*_ every single time you use that library?


For BWW Exp B the main flaws:
-Only really works for longer connected notes.
-Can't do repeated long notes (i.e. re-blows), as demonstrated in the Leia example. Clarinet, however, has a re-tonged legato which potentially would work.
-Limited control of the arcs. I listen back and think "If I had a choice, I wouldn't have raised it there, but oh well".
-Limited control of the attacks. It's hard and soft, I sometimes wish I had an in-between.

Also, I'd be curious to hear more about the "stacking" Piet mentioned above. All of that said, BWW Exp B is currently my favorite for anything with oboes and English horn, and for more prominent lyrical flute lines. I'm not as in to the clarinet, and haven't had much need for alto flute so far.

I'm anticipating replacing my BWW Legacy with CSW, but I imagine BWW Exp B I'll still be using for more exposed lines.


----------



## pipedr

OOH, I love these comparisons. Here's my attempt at Leia's theme with 8dio Claire Flute, Close + Decca mics in default position, using lyrical, strong, and one dynamic arc. I just realized that for some reason, Logic imported a tempo change, which I had thought intentional, so the beginning is faster. If I have time, maybe I'll make another attempt.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

pipedr said:


> OOH, I love these comparisons. Here's my attempt at Leia's theme with 8dio Claire Flute, Close + Decca mics in default position, using lyrical, strong, and one dynamic arc. I just realized that for some reason, Logic imported a tempo change, which I had thought intentional, so the beginning is faster. If I have time, maybe I'll make another attempt.



Thanks for sharing.

It sounds alright. At bit clumsy in places and I'm not the biggest fan of the phrasing and timber. Although, through no fault of yours. 8Dio Claire is a great example of having to write to the limitations of the library, and since it's strength is it's arc patches and they only work for certain lines, it's hard to sculpt to fit perfectly.


----------



## 5Lives

Wow - thanks for everybody chiming in with the different libraries on that MIDI! Really helps to clarify the differences between tone especially (playability is likely down to the programming as well).

In my humble opinion, Infinite Woodwinds didn't sound particularly good, tonally. Almost like a synthesized flute compared to Berlin and CineWinds (even 8Dio, though I didn't think that sounded that great either personally). Berlin and CineWinds - you can tell it was a recorded player blowing on the flute. There's a realism to the sound that IWW just doesn't have IMO. You can especially tell on the highest note in the passage.

CineWinds does have some annoying editing (though some would say the imperfections make it sound like a real player recording and I would have to agree somewhat). It also has a very limited set of articulations - or is using the script behind the scenes to make a lot of choices for the programmer. I don't particularly like this because I don't know what the script is deciding to do - and so I can't tell if it is deciding correctly.

I still happen to like BWW - I wonder if Revive would sound differently (though they didn't re-record the Flute 1). The editing is good and I like the tone personally. Same goes for BWW Exp B (though I guess it shines best with these lyrical lines).

Agree that none of these handled repeated notes explicitly (except for maybe IWW), but I think I'm in the camp of tone over playability - even IWW needs editing after the fact.

I'll try the Passion of the Christ one today with BWW legacy and CineWinds. And if we want to compare a different instrument, happy to help there too.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jonathan Moray said:


> I'm not really too impressed with any of the version of Leia's Theme posted here. But if I had to choose one it would be Infinite Woodwinds. It's the most consistent and doesn't have as many imperfections and quirks as the other ones. @Land of Missing Parts BWW Exp B as second for consistency, and maybe @5Lives CineWinds for tone. BWW Exp B only having a single velocity layer helps a lot with the consistency of the tone, legato, and most of all, the vibrato.
> 
> @El Buhdai, did you use anything else, other than vibrato and dynamics with IWW? Because I believe it would help to add some slight harmonics in places. The one thing, and this is a problem across everything modelled/semi-modelled (or whatever you want to call it), it often sounds too steril, it's too perfect. But at least with this approach you control the imperfections.
> 
> Adding a bit of a shelf EQ from 8k also helped with the tone of IWW in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> @El Buhdai, @Land of Missing Parts, @5Lives, or anyone else.
> 
> If you'd like I have a track you could compare next. I've recently listened a bit to the score for The Passion of The Christ, and it has some really hauntingly beautiful melodies. Especially in the track 'Peter Denies Jesus' there's a really good flute part. There's actually two flute parts; the ethnic flutes doing the bending right at the beginning, and the main melody. Both parts would be interesting to see which libraries might be able to pull it off. I know BWW, nor IWW, has any ethnic flutes, yet, but standard flute bends should do.
> 
> The piece is not extremely advanced or hard to play, but it is rather agile in parts, and it would be interesting to see how the different libraries handla that without tripping up.
> 
> John Debney - Peter Denies Jesus (The Passion of The Christ)




I'm surprised you picked the Infinite Woodwinds one. The flutes are the hardest to make sound realistic across both libraries, but I do agree they sound the cleanest in terms of how the notes are connected. As someone who doesn't have a keyboard yet and sequences everything, they take a bit of fine tuning to sound like that. The problem is, they sound _too_ clean in terms of tone. You don't get those off-note harmonics or breathy attacks like you would from other libraries. This is really one of the only instruments where I feel the need to wiggle the vibrato rate slider along with the vibrato intensity slider just to try to keep it from sounding too much like a non-vib flute with an LFO on it. To answer your question though, I only used dynamics and vibrato intensity, with vibrato rate for the first flute only to add a bit more variation.

I'm really glad this thread popped up and glad I offered to do comparisons for people, because hopefully we can finally start to fill Google with hands-on user demos and impressions for these libraries so people don't have to buy them in blind faith anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all disappointed with what I purchased. I'm a playability over tone guy, or rather, I'm a _musicality_ over tone guy since I don't have a keyboard yet. I care much more about how my samples sound when coming together to form a piece of music than I care about having the most authentic sounding samples with room sound and whatnot. Glitchy or finnicky note starts or ends and recycled samples with tons of movement that make it hard to write melodies with notes in smaller intervals bother me far more than a somewhat synthy sound.

I wouldn't mind doing another demo, but it can't be a full piece as I'm far too slow for that, and I'm tapping out of flute demos because they're the only instruments I don't particularly enjoy writing for in the library  . I'd be happy to throw myself at some lines for the other instruments though! How about some bass woodwinds? Saxophones? Infinite Brass instruments? Let me know, I'm watching.


----------



## El Buhdai

5Lives said:


> Wow - thanks for everybody chiming in with the different libraries on that MIDI! Really helps to clarify the differences between tone especially (playability is likely down to the programming as well).
> 
> In my humble opinion, Infinite Woodwinds didn't sound particularly good, tonally. Almost like a synthesized flute compared to Berlin and CineWinds (even 8Dio, though I didn't think that sounded that great either personally). Berlin and CineWinds - you can tell it was a recorded player blowing on the flute. There's a realism to the sound that IWW just doesn't have IMO. You can especially tell on the highest note in the passage.
> 
> CineWinds does have some annoying editing (though some would say the imperfections make it sound like a real player recording and I would have to agree somewhat). It also has a very limited set of articulations - or is using the script behind the scenes to make a lot of choices for the programmer. I don't particularly like this because I don't know what the script is deciding to do - and so I can't tell if it is deciding correctly.
> 
> I still happen to like BWW - I wonder if Revive would sound differently (though they didn't re-record the Flute 1). The editing is good and I like the tone personally. Same goes for BWW Exp B (though I guess it shines best with these lyrical lines).
> 
> Agree that none of these handled repeated notes explicitly (except for maybe IWW), but I think I'm in the camp of tone over playability - even IWW needs editing after the fact.
> 
> I'll try the Passion of the Christ one today with BWW legacy and CineWinds. And if we want to compare a different instrument, happy to help there too.



Yeah, I'm in total agreement with you on the tone. If you want to understand someone's priorities when it comes to a sampled orchestra, show them Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds and see how they respond. Do you want highly detailed recordings full of little human touches and are willing to sacrifice agility and ease of use? Infinite is not for you. Do you want highly agile instruments with almost no quirks in movement and are willing to sacrifice varying levels of tone depending on the instrument? Infinite is for you.

If you want more examples of instruments to look out for more than others in the tone department, the trumpets can sometimes sound pretty odd at certain dynamics levels and note ranges, and the English Horn isn't nasally enough and sounds kind of weird on the lower notes.

The good thing is, Aaron says he's gonna keep working on flutes, the trumpets have already been overhauled in the upcoming Infinite Brass update, and he acknowledged my feedback on the tone of the English Horn in an email so that may be fixed in the next IW update.


----------



## 5Lives

If you have Infinite Brass, I did this solo French Horn line from the middle of Luke and Leia's theme to compare Hollywood Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, and CineBrass in that order. I personally think CSB is the best - and was the easiest to program (and use the advanced features like legato speed and repetitions). I would never recommend Hollywood Brass to anybody - Play absolutely sucks from a usability standpoint compared to what is out there today and the patch structure / naming is a total mess.

MIDI file attached.


----------



## Eptesicus

5Lives said:


> If you have Infinite Brass, I did this solo French Horn line from the middle of Luke and Leia's theme to compare Hollywood Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, and CineBrass in that order. I personally think CSB is the best - and was the easiest to program (and use the advanced features like legato speed and repetitions). I would never recommend Hollywood Brass to anybody - Play absolutely sucks from a usability standpoint compared to what is out there today and the patch structure / naming is a total mess.
> 
> MIDI file attached.




Would also love it if someone could do this.

I only have Hollywood brass (and adventure brass, but that is only good for certain things) and looking for a replacement, because as you say its a pain in the *** to use. Can sound good but its just a mess workflow wise and i have never liked the shorts much. The trombones in HWB is a bit lacking i find too. Horns a6 and trumpets are good though.

Currently cant decide between Infinite, Modern Scoring or CSB. Also would really like to hear about Junkie XL Brass too but that seems like vapourware at the moment..


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Here are the comparison solo flutes we've got so far for Leia.


1.CineWinds
2.Berlin Woodwinds Legacy
3.Berlin Woodwinds Exp B
4.Infinite Woodwinds
5.8Dio Claire Flute
6.Spitfire Studio Woodwinds
7.Spitfire BBC SO
8.WarpIV
9.VSL (Solo flute 1)
10.Expressive Instruments (Flute prototype. More info here.)
(Labeled in the Soundcloud comments.)

Here are the comparisons for solo horn playing Luke and Leia.

1.Cinebrass
2.Infinite Brass
3.VSL Brass 1 (Viennese Horn/Horn Vienna)
4.Sample Modeling Horn
5.Organic Samples/Orchestral Tools Majestic Horn
6.Cinematic Studio Brass
7.EW Hollywood Brass
8.Spitfire Symphonic Brass
9.Spitfire BBC SO

I'll try to add to this post if more come in. Sorry if I'm missing anyone.


----------



## El Buhdai

5Lives said:


> If you have Infinite Brass, I did this solo French Horn line from the middle of Luke and Leia's theme to compare Hollywood Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, and CineBrass in that order. I personally think CSB is the best - and was the easiest to program (and use the advanced features like legato speed and repetitions). I would never recommend Hollywood Brass to anybody - Play absolutely sucks from a usability standpoint compared to what is out there today and the patch structure / naming is a total mess.
> 
> MIDI file attached.



I'm a former French Horn player actually. 

1. Way too much sucking in its transitions. It's a fair bit exaggerated. The crossfades between transition and sustain are also noticeable.

2. Much better transitions, but some odd honky tones that remind me of BBCSO's solo horn. 

3. Easily the best tone. It's got that signature warm, mellow sound that a French Horn has at low dynamics. Some of the transitions are the best of the three, while others are a bit awkward.

I'll post the Infinite Brass version here. One version with some rather diverse dynamics and a bit of vibrato to add a professional soloist flair to it. This version will be kind of like how my old French Horn teacher would play a line when she wanted to be fancy.  The other one that more closely matches the dynamics and playstyle in the examples already shared. A "fancy" version, and a "sterile" version, if you will.


----------



## Dan

5Lives said:


> If you have Infinite Brass, I did this solo French Horn line from the middle of Luke and Leia's theme to compare Hollywood Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, and CineBrass in that order. I personally think CSB is the best - and was the easiest to program (and use the advanced features like legato speed and repetitions). I would never recommend Hollywood Brass to anybody - Play absolutely sucks from a usability standpoint compared to what is out there today and the patch structure / naming is a total mess.
> 
> MIDI file attached.



Very nice. I like the second and third way more than the first one. The second (Cinematic Studio Brass) is best in my opinion in terms of smoothness and coherence. The third one is also very nice, but does it generally play at a lower dynamic than the other two or is it just the warm tone that's fooling me?

Anyway, here is my Infinite Brass version. I just see while I was creating that, @El Buhdai posted about sharing his version(s) too, which is great! It will be nice to hear different performances with the same instrument.


----------



## El Buhdai

Here they are as promised with a bonus trumpet ostinato taken from Star Wars included in an appropriately named separate file:


----------



## El Buhdai

Dan said:


> Very nice. I like the second and third way more than the first one. The second (Cinematic Studio Brass) is best in my opinion in terms of smoothness and coherence. The third one is also very nice, but does it generally play at a lower dynamic than the other two ones or is it just the warm tone that's fooling me?
> 
> Anyway, here is my Infinite Brass version. I just see while I was creating that, @El Buhdai posted about sharing his version(s) too, which is great! It will be nice to hear different performances with the same instrument.



Listening to yours, I realized I forgot to add breath breaks. Amateur mistake, haha!

EDIT: I think I like the playstyle in yours better overall, too. Bravo!


----------



## 5Lives

El Buhdai said:


> Here they are as promised with a bonus trumpet ostinato taken from Star Wars included in an appropriately named separate file:



Do you happen to have the BBCSO version too? Curious how that one sounds.

Definitely a better showing for Infinite here - especially on the faster notes and transitions. Can't say I can pick which tone I like better this time compared to CSB, especially with Dan's version!

If you have the ostinato MIDI, I can drop that into CSB and CineBrass.

If somebody has Modern Scoring Brass, that'd be great to compare against. Their horn video sounds very good and smooth to me.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

5Lives said:


> Wow - thanks for everybody chiming in with the different libraries on that MIDI! Really helps to clarify the differences between tone especially (playability is likely down to the programming as well).
> 
> In my humble opinion, Infinite Woodwinds didn't sound particularly good, tonally. Almost like a synthesized flute compared to Berlin and CineWinds (even 8Dio, though I didn't think that sounded that great either personally). Berlin and CineWinds - you can tell it was a recorded player blowing on the flute. There's a realism to the sound that IWW just doesn't have IMO. You can especially tell on the highest note in the passage.
> 
> CineWinds does have some annoying editing (though some would say the imperfections make it sound like a real player recording and I would have to agree somewhat). It also has a very limited set of articulations - or is using the script behind the scenes to make a lot of choices for the programmer. I don't particularly like this because I don't know what the script is deciding to do - and so I can't tell if it is deciding correctly.
> 
> I still happen to like BWW - I wonder if Revive would sound differently (though they didn't re-record the Flute 1). The editing is good and I like the tone personally. Same goes for BWW Exp B (though I guess it shines best with these lyrical lines).
> 
> Agree that none of these handled repeated notes explicitly (except for maybe IWW), but I think I'm in the camp of tone over playability - even IWW needs editing after the fact.
> 
> I'll try the Passion of the Christ one today with BWW legacy and CineWinds. And if we want to compare a different instrument, happy to help there too.



The tone of IWW is not the best, but we are listening for different things. I'm listening for playability and fluidity in the demos, while you're listening for tone -- very different criteria. Although I will say that I don't believe IWW sounds bad per se, just not the best.

For me the human imperfections in CineWinds, and all the other libraries, sounds fine in these examples, but I know there's also a possibility for them to get in the way, and that would take me out of the creative process if I have to work around them. Same with the vibrato. Having no control of the vibrato quite frankly sucks.



El Buhdai said:


> Yeah, I'm in total agreement with you on the tone. If you want to understand someone's priorities when it comes to a sampled orchestra, show them Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds and see how they respond. Do you want highly detailed recordings full of little human touches and are willing to sacrifice agility and ease of use? Infinite is not for you. Do you want highly agile instruments with almost no quirks in movement and are willing to sacrifice varying levels of tone depending on the instrument? Infinite is for you.
> 
> If you want more examples of instruments to look out for more than others in the tone department, the trumpets can sometimes sound pretty odd at certain dynamics levels and note ranges, and the English Horn isn't nasally enough and sounds kind of weird on the lower notes.
> 
> The good thing is, Aaron says he's gonna keep working on flutes, the trumpets have already been overhauled in the upcoming Infinite Brass update, and he acknowledged my feedback on the tone of the English Horn in an email so that may be fixed in the next IW update.



Exactly. To both the part about playability and human touches, as well as the part about Aaron improving the libraries.



El Buhdai said:


> I'm a former French Horn player actually.
> 
> 1. Way too much sucking in its transitions. It's a fair bit exaggerated. The crossfades between transition and sustain are also noticeable.
> 
> 2. Much better transitions, but some odd honky tones that remind me of BBCSO's solo horn.
> 
> 3. Easily the best tone. It's got that signature warm, mellow sound that a French Horn has at low dynamics. Some of the transitions are the best of the three, while others are a bit awkward.
> 
> I'll post the Infinite Brass version here. One version with some rather diverse dynamics and a bit of vibrato to add a professional soloist flair to it. This version will be kind of like how my old French Horn teacher would play a line when she wanted to be fancy.  The other one that more closely matches the dynamics and playstyle in the examples already shared. A "fancy" version, and a "sterile" version, if you will.



I'm working on something for French Horns I was thinking of posting here soon. It's more advanced and harder for samples to play than what we've been done up until now. But @5Lives beat me to it, so I will let everyone do the Leia French Horn before I post the next mockup. Would be nice to hear what flaws you find since you're a French Horn player.


----------



## NoamL

If the goal was to convince a director that Leia's theme would sound lyrical & romantic with a live flute, I'd go with the Berlin Exp B flute. EDIT: or actually probably CineWinds instead. The legato programming is so bad but the player's attitude is right for the melody.

But I feel like it'd be a harder sell than using a nice solo mp horn. Like this!

CSS+CSB. Just tree mics + verb


----------



## jononotbono

NoamL said:


> The legato programming is so bad but the player's attitude is right for the melody.



For what? Berlin Exp B Flute or Cinewinds?


----------



## El Buhdai

5Lives said:


> Do you happen to have the BBCSO version too? Curious how that one sounds.
> 
> Definitely a better showing for Infinite here - especially on the faster notes and transitions. Can't say I can pick which tone I like better this time compared to CSB, especially with Dan's version!
> 
> If you have the ostinato MIDI, I can drop that into CSB and CineBrass.
> 
> If somebody has Modern Scoring Brass, that'd be great to compare against. Their horn video sounds very good and smooth to me.



I don't own BBSCO. I'll be relying solely on Infinite Brass (& Angry Brass on the off chance I need some epic brass, though that's not my style) and Woodwinds for my needs when I cancel ComposerCloud. I may buy a good solo flute to make up for IW's flutes, but other than that, it'll be Infinite all the way for quite some time. Here's the MIDI though. I've never sent MIDI before so I don't know if it's formatted properly, but here's what it should sound like:


----------



## Jonathan Moray

El Buhdai said:


> I don't own BBSCO. I'll be relying solely on Infinite Brass (& Angry Brass on the off chance I need some epic brass, though that's not my style) and Woodwinds for my needs when I cancel ComposerCloud. I may buy a good solo flute to make up for IW's flutes, but other than that, it'll be Infinite all the way for quite some time. Here's the MIDI though. I've never sent MIDI before so I don't know if it's formatted properly, but here's what it should sound like:



Forgot to attach the midi, only mp3. Although, that mp3 sounds good.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jonathan Moray said:


> Forgot to attach the midi, only mp3. Although, that mp3 sounds good.



Thanks, I'm a bit of a scatterbrain at the moment.


----------



## Bollen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Here are the comparison solo flutes we've got so far for Leia.
> 
> 
> 1.CineWinds
> 2.Berlin Woodwinds Legacy
> 3.Berlin Woodwinds Exp B
> 4.Infinite Woodwinds
> 5.8Dio Claire Flute
> (Labeled in the comments.)
> 
> I'll try to add to this post if more come in.



Here's another three that didn't make it to the list.....


----------



## Dan

Bollen said:


> Here's another three that didn't make it to the list.....



Very mysterious, these mystery flutes... 
All I know is that No. 3 has amazingly smooth legato transitions. Is it audio modeling or something of that sort?


----------



## Bollen

Dan said:


> Very mysterious, these mystery flutes...
> All I know is that No. 3 has amazingly smooth legato transitions. Is it audio modeling or something of that sort?


Heh, heh, heh! I'll reveal all after I hear some of the comments, I have a vested interest in one of them so I'm really curious to see what people think...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Bollen said:


> Here's another three that didn't make it to the list.....


Sure. Any idea what that comment about "stacked" samples means?


----------



## Dan

Bollen said:


> Heh, heh, heh! I'll reveal all after I hear some of the comments, I have a vested interest in one of them so I'm really curious to see what people think...



Okay, I will get more detailed with my feedback:

No. 1: Nice sound, but sadly some of the repeated notes and some of the legato transitions seem to be a bit uneven and even have little deviations in pitch, at least that's what it sounds like to me... like the flute is gently weeping or something. Which is a shame because the rest is really pleasant.

No. 2: Good sound, mostly smooth transitions, almost a little too smooth and soft sometimes. But overall pretty decent, I think.

No. 3: I love the sound of this one. The repeated notes could have a bit of a softer attack for my taste, but maybe that's just the player and not the instrument? Because the repeated note at 0:04 is again very smooth... The legato transitions are really awesome though and it seems to have a nice vibrato control. My strong guess is that this is Audio Modeling. For me this one is the winner of the three and could even be the winner of the whole bunch. But first I would have to hear how smooth those repeated notes can really get.


----------



## Bollen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Sure. Any idea what that comment about "stacked" samples means?


I think it means when you can hear more than one sample being played at the same time, for example when you crossfade between two dynamic layers on a solo instrument and for a moment you hear two instruments...


----------



## Bollen

And here are some horns!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Bollen said:


> Heh, heh, heh! I'll reveal all after I hear some of the comments, I have a vested interest in one of them so I'm really curious to see what people think...


Well Mystery Flute 1 reminds me a bit of the shakuhachi in the Willow score.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Bollen said:


> I think it means when you can hear more than one sample being played at the same time, for example when you crossfade between two dynamic layers on a solo instrument and for a moment you hear two instruments...


But what puzzles me is that there's only one dynamic layer in BWW Exp B. Anyway, I can't hear it, can you?


----------



## Bollen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Well Mystery Flute 1 reminds me a bit of the shakuhachi in the Willow Score.



You're right! It's very Shakuhacish...


----------



## Bollen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> But what puzzles me is that there's only one dynamic layer in BWW Exp B. Anyway, I can't hear it, can you?


True, bad example... But it's the same when applied to legato, that tiny moment between transitions when you hear two instruments....


----------



## Bollen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I can't hear it, can you?


No I confess I don't hear it either....


----------



## NoamL

jononotbono said:


> For what? Berlin Exp B Flute or Cinewinds?



CineWinds.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Bollen said:


> And here are some horns!


Which library is the VSL?

Flute/Brass comparison post has been updated.


----------



## Bollen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Which library is the VSL?
> 
> Flute/Brass comparison post has been updated.


It's in the file name: VSL = Vienna, SM = SampleModelling

Or maybe I misunderstood the question.... It's the Viennese Horn or Horn Vienna from the Brass 1 package.


----------



## El Buhdai

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Which library is the VSL?
> 
> Flute/Brass comparison post has been updated.



Great post, thanks for updating it. This will be the perfect thread for future potential customers to make informed decisions with. Also, you can often say the tone of the Infinite instruments just doesn't stack up, but here I think it's the clear winner in terms of musicality, and it's equal to or better than the others in tone. Where Infinite fell behind in tone with the flutes, it truly shines in this comparison.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Bollen said:


> It's in the file name: VSL = Vienna, SM = SampleModelling


Yes, but doesn't VSL have more than one brass library?


----------



## Bollen

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Yes, but doesn't VSL have more than one brass library?


Yes sorry, updated it... https://vi-control.net/community/th...es-get-so-little-attention.86499/post-4459146


----------



## 5Lives

SM sounds horrible to me. Does anybody have Spitfire Studio or Symphonic Brass? Their Studio Woodwinds had some nice moments.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Bollen said:


> Here's another three that didn't make it to the list.....



Yeah, I too like the third one. Would agree with Dan and also say it's modelled, because it once again sounds too perfect. Except there's a slight pitch bend after a couple of the phrases. It could very well be Audio Modelling, but I've never heard Audio Modeling sound like that. It could also be Infinite Woodwinds again, just mixed this time.

Edit: On a second listen; there's something about the vibrato on the third version that makes it sound very fragile -- it's fast and subtle. Not sure what I think about it. I kind of like it, but maybe not for this theme. It's one reason why I think it's not IWW. There's also a few other things that I noticed that I'm not very fond of.



5Lives said:


> SM sounds horrible to me. Does anybody have Spitfire Studio or Symphonic Brass? Their Studio Woodwinds had some nice moments.



I might have someone who could do a mockup with Symphonic Brass. I will ask and see if they are up for it.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Here's another version of the Luke and Leia Horn line.


----------



## I like music

Too many mystery instruments now. I'm getting very, very confused.


----------



## I like music

Also, should we change the thread title (again) and this time to "Infinite Series is starting to get more attention."?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Also, should we change the thread title (again) and this time to "Infinite Series is starting to get more attention."?



I was actually thinking if we shouldn't start a new thread altogether for the demos. We are not really staying on topic any more.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I was actually thinking if we shouldn't start a new thread altogether for the demos. We are not really staying on topic any more.



Yeah, a good idea. In fact, I kind of wish that there was a single thread simply collating links to demos for different libraries (e.g. a pinned master thread, and people could simply submit for someone to add to a series of links eg:

Infinite series horns: link 1, link 2, link 3
VSL woodwinds: link 1, link 2, link e"

I can also imagine that this would take quite some doing from a single person, so perhaps we should start with something simpler, like a IS demos thread (that would then probably stray off topic again, haha)


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Yeah, a good idea. In fact, I kind of wish that there was a single thread simply collating links to demos for different libraries (e.g. a pinned master thread, and people could simply submit for someone to add to a series of links eg:
> 
> Infinite series horns: link 1, link 2, link 3
> VSL woodwinds: link 1, link 2, link e"
> 
> I can also imagine that this would take quite some doing from a single person, so perhaps we should start with something simpler, like a IS demos thread (that would then probably stray off topic again, haha)



I could create one. Might not be able to keep track of everything, but shouldn't be too bad. I was thinking of opening it up for all libraries. Now we are just comparing everything to the Infinite Series, which is the more interesting library to me at the moment, but we are starting to stray. It seems the most alluring topic so far has been semi-modelled vs. sampled, so might name it something like that. There has been a lot of talk about playabillity vs. tone.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I did a new thread for the comparison, it can be found here:






Library Comparison Thread (Audio Demos)


This is a thread for comparing and discussing different libraries. We started this topic in another thread and I thought I’d move it here to try and keep it a bit more organised. Want to do a comparison: Post a midi file of what you want to compare, and tell us what what libraries you would...




vi-control.net


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> I don't own BBSCO. I'll be relying solely on Infinite Brass (& Angry Brass on the off chance I need some epic brass, though that's not my style) and Woodwinds for my needs when I cancel ComposerCloud. I may buy a good solo flute to make up for IW's flutes, but other than that, it'll be Infinite all the way for quite some time. Here's the MIDI though. I've never sent MIDI before so I don't know if it's formatted properly, but here's what it should sound like:



Is that Infinite Brass?


----------



## I like music

Bollen said:


> Here's another three that didn't make it to the list.....



Yeah, what is number 3 man!?


----------



## El Buhdai

Eptesicus said:


> Is that Infinite Brass?



Yeah


----------



## El Buhdai

Jonathan Moray said:


> I was actually thinking if we shouldn't start a new thread altogether for the demos. We are not really staying on topic any more.



I still think comparing the Infinite series to other instruments was a good evolution of _this_ thread, given how few and far between the user demos for this series have been.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

El Buhdai said:


> I still think comparing the Infinite series to other instruments was a good evolution of _this_ thread, given how few and far between the user demos for this series have been.



Maybe. But we move so far away from "What is wrong with the Infinte Series" (don't remember the exact title) to "Why does the Infinite Series get so little attention??" to now just posting demos and requesting demos of all sort of libraries. It's very hard to keep track of what's been posted and what has not been posted. There's 6 pages of clutter to get through before we get to the demos and there's no centralised way to find all the demos.

You could definitely still use this thread for demos. I just wanted somewhere where easy to find all the comparison of all the libraries.


----------



## pipedr

Any Infinite owners want to comment on what they are using for spatialization? Just the included convolution reverbs, or using Virtual Sound Stage, MIR, SPAT, Breeze/Precendence, etc.? What's working the best?


----------



## Bollen

I like music said:


> Too many mystery instruments now. I'm getting very, very confused.


OK I've revealed them in the new thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/library-comparison-thread-audio-demos.86901/post-4459379


----------



## I like music

pipedr said:


> Any Infinite owners want to comment on what they are using for spatialization? Just the included convolution reverbs, or using Virtual Sound Stage, MIR, SPAT, Breeze/Precendence, etc.? What's working the best?




lol I just chucked mine into Reverence (Cubase Stock reverb) using the Dutch Hall preset in that reverb. And it came out sounding alright to me!!!


----------



## Dan

pipedr said:


> Any Infinite owners want to comment on what they are using for spatialization? Just the included convolution reverbs, or using Virtual Sound Stage, MIR, SPAT, Breeze/Precendence, etc.? What's working the best?



Right now, most of the time I use the built in convolution reverbs. Sometimes I use close mic settings and add ValhallaRoom. Can't really say what is the best method though as I haven't tried a lot of different approaches so far since I own IB and IW only for a short time.


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> Yeah



That sounds very convincing to me.

I'm quite impressed.


----------



## schrodinger1612

I’ve actually been looking at this series .... how does it compare to something like the VSL special edition bundle?


----------



## I like music

Frank Costabile said:


> I’ve actually been looking at this series .... how does it compare to something like the VSL special edition bundle?



My favourite libraries, for the sheer control. The tone in most cases is something that I also like (though the tone will be 2nd to traditionally sampled libraries where the samples have been left exactly as recorded). That said, I also feel that "tone" in part has to do with the phrasing too (e.g. sometimes it is hard to separate the two). And the control you get over phrasing with these is unbeatable. Only SWAM and SM are comparable in that sense (I've owned SWAM and played with SM brass, and also have SM strings)

THAT SAID, the VSL SE's as far as I know (and have heard at a friend's house) are also one of the very best libraries out there (perhaps not too many articulations in that set unless you buy all the editions?). If you have the funds, get both!


----------



## Eptesicus

Question -

Are all the instruments actually separate instruments? ie are the 6 horns all separately sampled horns or is it just one horn that has been sampled and then manipulated in 6 different ways so as not to get phasing issues etc when in an ensemble?


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> Question -
> 
> Are all the instruments actually separate instruments? ie are the 6 horns all separately sampled horns or is it just one horn that has been sampled and then manipulated in 6 different ways so as not to get phasing issues etc when in an ensemble?



Actually, I'm not sure! What I do know is that when you combine them they do sound pretty good (not sure if you have the library or not, as I can't keep a track of the thread). I _feel_ it is the latter, but may be wrong on this point!


----------



## Dan

Frank Costabile said:


> I’ve actually been looking at this series .... how does it compare to something like the VSL special edition bundle?



The VSL Special Edition was my very first sample library. I think for the amount you pay, you get a really good tool to create orchestral music. One thing that always annoyed me though was the lack of round robin samples. The short articulations usually only have 2 round robins (at least if I haven't missed some major update or the bundle takes care of this), which means that on every second repeated note you get the same sample again. And because I really liked writing Hollywood style ostinato figures at the time, it was always bugging me.

In contrast, with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, due to their approach you get a slightly different note every single time you repeat it so there is no A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-feeling when listening to the same note in staccato.

As for control vs. sound, I think I like music was on point. The infinite series really is insanely flexible and intuitive (more than any other library I know) if one gets along with the overall sound of it.


----------



## Eptesicus

I like music said:


> Actually, I'm not sure! What I do know is that when you combine them they do sound pretty good (not sure if you have the library or not, as I can't keep a track of the thread). I _feel_ it is the latter, but may be wrong on this point!




I don't have the library. It is on my shortlist of brass libraries to buy. If it is at a good enough price during the black friday sales i may get it.

I would be interested to know about whether it is actual different players/instruments or not.


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> I don't have the library. It is on my shortlist of brass libraries to buy. If it is at a good enough price during the black friday sales i may get it.
> 
> I would be interested to know about whether it is actual different players/instruments or not.



I see. Drop Aaron a note via his website. He's extremely responsive, and should be able to help!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I recall someone mentioning the Infinite libraries will be going on sale on Black Friday, is that right?

I honestly love what I've seen from the library. The only instrument I'm underwhelmed by is the flute. Love the sound of the low woods and english horn.


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I recall someone mentioning the Infinite libraries will be going on sale on Black Friday, is that right?
> 
> I honestly love what I've seen from the library. The only instrument I'm underwhelmed by is the flute. Love the sound of the low woods and english horn.



Interesting that the flute comes up so much as one that people don't like as much as the other instruments. It may have to do with the fact that it was the only instrument that had a different type and degree of 'modelling' done to it, compared to all other instruments (Aaron mentioned he went a different direction with the flute due to its unique character)


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I like music said:


> Interesting that the flute comes up so much as one that people don't like as much as the other instruments. It may have to do with the fact that it was the only instrument that had a different type and degree of 'modelling' done to it, compared to all other instruments (Aaron mentioned he went a different direction with the flute due to its unique character)


I'm not sure what it is. It just doesn't seem as expressive as the oboe or English horn, to me. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that it you don't get the feeling of someone blowing through a flute like some other libraries. Not sure how to explain it.


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I'm not sure what it is. It just doesn't seem as expressive as the oboe or English horn, to me. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that it you don't get the feeling of someone blowing through a flute like some other libraries. Not sure how to explain it.



I know exactly what you mean regarding the 'blowing through the instrument.' That said, still a lovely library overall. Curious to see if Aaron tweaks the flute at all.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I like music said:


> I know exactly what you mean regarding the 'blowing through the instrument.' That said, still a lovely library overall. Curious to see if Aaron tweaks the flute at all.


If he does that, then that'd be even better. Just waiting on Black Friday


----------



## El Buhdai

Eptesicus said:


> Question -
> 
> Are all the instruments actually separate instruments? ie are the 6 horns all separately sampled horns or is it just one horn that has been sampled and then manipulated in 6 different ways so as not to get phasing issues etc when in an ensemble?



If you like the sound, I'd say don't let that bother you. It doesn't seem to be a problem I Infinite Brass, though I will admit I occasionally ran into issues with the IW Oboe and Clarinet when I was new. Don't have problems with them anymore and I'm using the same version of the library.


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> If you like the sound, I'd say don't let that bother you. It doesn't seem to be a problem I Infinite Brass, though I will admit I occasionally ran into issues with the IW Oboe and Clarinet when I was new. Don't have problems with them anymore and I'm using the same version of the library.



I was more curious than anything. I mean part of me may feel short changed in a way (ie that i would only technically be getting one horn, or one trumpet etc), but i guess it is best no to think about it like that. No doubt a huge amount of time, work and expertise has gone into modelling and shaping these samples.


----------



## El Buhdai

Oh, and since no one has posted anything about the mutes yet, I feel like I should just put this out there. They are _amazing_.

I'm fairly confident in saying that you _can't_ do this with other orchestral libraries without extensive keyswitching and stitching, and that's if you're lucky to have the same mutes you get with Infinite Brass in the first place, as well as slurred shorts, falls, flutter tongue, and agile vibrato crossfading all with the level of consistency required to play this line. You're probably able to do it with jazz brass libraries, but I don't know much about them. I'm sending the original line, and the line being played on all mutes (excuse some minor mute switching timing errors... I automated it sloppily).

The line in the song had a bit of the highs rolled off cause they were kind of fatiguing, but the line with all the mutes is 100% out of the box. I love that I didn't even have to change the MIDI at all between mutes to get the same great performance. The consistency here is incredible.


----------



## vicontrolu

So this is with no keyswitches right? Then how many CCs were used for this line?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

vicontrolu said:


> So this is with no keyswitches right? Then how many CCs were used for this line?



If had to venture a guess, I would say 2 or 3; one for dynamics, one for vibrato, and one for pitch bend (If any was used). Don't hear too much Flutter or Growl so don't think any of those CCs were used. There's not a lot of CCs to actually use. The most important midi information is CC1 for dynamics and note length / note velocity.


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> Oh, and since no one has posted anything about the mutes yet, I feel like I should just put this out there. They are _amazing_.
> 
> I'm fairly confident in saying that you _can't_ do this with other orchestral libraries without extensive keyswitching and stitching, and that's if you're lucky to have the same mutes you get with Infinite Brass in the first place, as well as slurred shorts, falls, flutter tongue, and agile vibrato crossfading all with the level of consistency required to play this line. You're probably able to do it with jazz brass libraries, but I don't know much about them. I'm sending the original line, and the line being played on all mutes (excuse some minor mute switching timing errors... I automated it sloppily).
> 
> The line in the song had a bit of the highs rolled off cause they were kind of fatiguing, but the line with all the mutes is 100% out of the box. I love that I didn't even have to change the MIDI at all between mutes to get the same great performance. The consistency here is incredible.



Wow, that sounds great ;D


----------



## El Buhdai

vicontrolu said:


> So this is with no keyswitches right? Then how many CCs were used for this line?



Dynamics, Vibrato, Flutter tongue for bite in a couple places.


----------



## El Buhdai

Here's what I wrote for anyone who wants to visualize it, and I've also attached a MIDI file for any Infinite owners who want to get that sound from their own instruments, or make their own interpretation of it.


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> Dynamics, Vibrato, Flutter tongue for bite in a couple places.



I cant imagine being able to do that with any of the traditional libraries we have.

It sounds so human.

Is the other brass in that track from Infinite Brass too?


----------



## El Buhdai

Eptesicus said:


> I cant imagine being able to do that with any of the traditional libraries we have.
> 
> It sounds so human.
> 
> Is the other brass in that track from Infinite Brass too?



Yes.

And this is why I love these libraries. The notes sound more connected and musical.


----------



## servandus

It definitely sounds as fluid and detailed as SM... and probably even more flexible mixing wise. What mics did you use for this?

Thanks a lot for the demos and the midi files, El Buhdai. Hugely appreciated.


----------



## Dan

It really is great how intuitive the approach to working with the Infinite libraries is. If I were Aaron Venture, I would provide a free sample of maybe one instrument with a limited range or something like that, because I think a lot of people would be amazed by the versatility and immediately buy the product once they experienced how much fun it is to play around with it. 
Of course the sound isn’t always everyone‘s taste with all the instruments, as was mentioned already, but I honestly never owned a library that I could get so quickly to play almost anything.


----------



## schrodinger1612

Have to say I’m leaning more towards infinite series.

How demanding is it CPU/RAM wise, compared to the VSL?



Dan said:


> The VSL Special Edition was my very first sample library. I think for the amount you pay, you get a really good tool to create orchestral music. One thing that always annoyed me though was the lack of round robin samples. The short articulations usually only have 2 round robins (at least if I haven't missed some major update or the bundle takes care of this), which means that on every second repeated note you get the same sample again. And because I really liked writing Hollywood style ostinato figures at the time, it was always bugging me.
> 
> In contrast, with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, due to their approach you get a slightly different note every single time you repeat it so there is no A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-feeling when listening to the same note in staccato.
> 
> As for control vs. sound, I think I like music was on point. The infinite series really is insanely flexible and intuitive (more than any other library I know) if one gets along with the overall sound of it.


----------



## El Buhdai

servandus said:


> It definitely sounds as fluid and detailed as SM... and probably even more flexible mixing wise. What mics did you use for this?
> 
> Thanks a lot for the demos and the midi files, El Buhdai. Hugely appreciated.



No problem. Let me know if there's anything else you want to hear from them. The solo trumpet here is using the Mixed Mic setting with the position at medium-close for a soloist sound:







Dan said:


> It really is great how intuitive the approach to working with the Infinite libraries is. If I were Aaron Venture, I would provide a free sample of maybe one instrument with a limited range or something like that, because I think a lot of people would be amazed by the versatility and immediately buy the product once they experienced how much fun it is to play around with it.
> Of course the sound isn’t always everyone‘s taste with all the instruments, as was mentioned already, but I honestly never owned a library that I could get so quickly to play almost anything.



I agree. If Aaron Venture is still watching, I have a few recommendations. For brass, he should do the French Horn. It would be the best Solo Horn freebie out there and that alone would draw attention to Infinite Brass. The range is almost 4 full octaves (!?!?!?!?!) for the Infinite horn, but limit it to about 2 and a half or 3 in the middle of the French Horn's ideal range.

Or, if he's not comfortable giving away such a key instrument, give away the Euphonium. He's said somewhere that it's one of the only instruments he's super happy with and won't be tweaking any time soon, so the demo won't even need to be updated alongside Infinite Brass. In addition, it'll be the closest representation to a quality Infinite Brass instrument since he said it's one of the instruments he's most satisfied with. And, he'll have the bonus of not losing sales by giving away a more commonly used instrument like the French Horn. Instead, he'll be giving away something more niche.


----------



## El Buhdai

Frank Costabile said:


> Have to say I’m leaning more towards infinite series.
> 
> How demanding is it CPU/RAM wise, compared to the VSL?



I don't know much about the CPU usage as it compares to other libraries, but it's fairly light, and gets even lighter if you use the mic mix setting like I usually do. I occasionally get small hiccups when a bunch of instruments are playing trills at once, but that's about it. I have an i7-7700K.

RAM usage was another selling point for me. Every instrument across both libraries is 50 - 60 MB of RAM each. That blew me away when I first heard that. With that, you get access to everything the instrument is capable of. The muted trumpet playing that line with all of the falls, trills, flutter, shorts, long, and vibrato uses 60.4 MB of RAM. Even if you don't like the tone of these instruments, the articulation potential for only 50 - 60 MB of RAM is insane.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

As someone looking to get a woodwinds library to go with my Cinewinds core, would this library be good for me?
Really love how versatile it seems. I'm in need of the lower winds and the english horn. Was gonna wait for Cinematic Studio Woodwinds, but I heard Infinite Woods will be going on sale soon.
Anyone using Infinite Woods as their main woods library?


----------



## Dan

Frank Costabile said:


> Have to say I’m leaning more towards infinite series.
> 
> How demanding is it CPU/RAM wise, compared to the VSL?



It is definitely more demanding on the CPU than VSL. RAM-wise it's a dream, close to nothing. I will maybe do a comparison later with the same piece and share results on how much CPU each library needs so you can get an impression.


----------



## Øivind

I love the woodwinds, saving up to get the brass. <3


----------



## Dan

Frank Costabile said:


> Have to say I’m leaning more towards infinite series.
> 
> How demanding is it CPU/RAM wise, compared to the VSL?



So here is a visual comparison for CPU usage with a 6-core 3,2 GHz Intel i7.

Playing the same rather fast passage with 10 tracks of solo woodwinds (4 Flutes, 3 Oboes, 3 Clarinets).

Infinite Woodwinds with normal mic settings:






Infinite Woodwinds with mixed mics:






VSL Special Edition (Vienna Instruments version, not the "synchronized" one):






As you can see, there is quite a difference.

Oh, I forgot to mention: The Medium Hall reverb setting was used with the Infinite Woodwinds.


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> Yes.
> 
> And this is why I love these libraries. The notes sound more connected and musical.





Dan said:


> So here is a visual comparison for CPU usage with a 6-core 3,2 GHz Intel i7.
> 
> Playing the same rather fast passage with 10 tracks of solo woodwinds (4 Flutes, 3 Oboes, 3 Clarinets).
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds with normal mic settings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds with mixed mics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSL Special Edition (Vienna Instruments version, not the "synchronized" one):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, there is quite a difference.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention: The Medium Hall reverb setting was used with the Infinite Woodwinds.



Was that all in one instance of kontakt?

I wonder if it would be better if spread across multiple instances to take advantage of mulitple cores/threads


----------



## I like music

Dan said:


> So here is a visual comparison for CPU usage with a 6-core 3,2 GHz Intel i7.
> 
> Playing the same rather fast passage with 10 tracks of solo woodwinds (4 Flutes, 3 Oboes, 3 Clarinets).
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds with normal mic settings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds with mixed mics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSL Special Edition (Vienna Instruments version, not the "synchronized" one):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, there is quite a difference.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention: The Medium Hall reverb setting was used with the Infinite Woodwinds.



Really interesting to see! If not a hassle would it be possible to check how much that load goes down if you don't use medium hall, and instead use studio? No problem if not. Was just curious! I do have the library myself but not near my machine today!


----------



## Dan

Eptesicus said:


> Was that all in one instance of kontakt?
> 
> I wonder if it would be better if spread across multiple instances to take advantage of mulitple cores/threads



I used multiple instances.



I like music said:


> Really interesting to see! If not a hassle would it be possible to check how much that load goes down if you don't use medium hall, and instead use studio? No problem if not. Was just curious! I do have the library myself but not near my machine today!



Here it is with Studio mics.

Normal settings:






Mixed mics:






With normal settings, Studio seems to need slightly less CPU than Medium Hall. With the Studio mixed mics, there seems to be almost no noticeable difference to the Medium Hall mixed mics.

EDIT: I should mention, all the screenshots were taken roughly at the same moment in the piece where all 10 winds are playing trills.


----------



## I like music

Dan said:


> I used multiple instances.
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is with Studio mics.
> 
> Normal settings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mixed mics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With normal settings, Studio seems to need slightly less CPU than Medium Hall. With the Studio mixed mics, there seems to be almost no noticeable difference to the Medium Hall mixed mics.
> 
> EDIT: I should mention, all the screenshots were taken roughly at the same moment in the piece where all 10 winds are playing trills.



Legend! Thanks a ton.


----------



## servandus

El Buhdai said:


> No problem. Let me know if there's anything else you want to hear from them. The solo trumpet here is using the Mixed Mic setting with the position at medium-close for a soloist sound:



Thanks a lot. So far, I'm much more convinced by the brass than by the woodwinds, not only in respect to timbral realism, but more significantly concerning the performance. Everything sounds more natural to me in the brass instruments: the attacks, the vibrato, the pitch shifts... 

The double reeds tend to sound better to my ears, and the legatos are nice overall, but especially in the flutes and single reeds I find that the tongued attacks sound somewhat weird and too artificial, in such a way that it really affects the perception of the tone quality of the sustains that follow. It's difficult to say without being able to play the library myself, but to me the attacks sound either way too "inmediate" and "clean", or way too "noisy" (esp. in the flutes), instead of "naturally airy", if I can put it this way (it's difficult for me to express this in English, the "naturally airy" quality being also so distinctly different in flutes and single reeds). Maybe the sustains are also too "clean/thin", but I think the attacks are resposible for this in a huge way.

I wonder if that is also your impression, and that of @Dan , @I like music and other users posting examples in this thread.

Again, thanks for taking the time to post and upload those audio clips!


----------



## El Buhdai

servandus said:


> Thanks a lot. So far, I'm much more convinced by the brass than by the woodwinds, not only in respect to timbral realism, but more significantly concerning the performance. Everything sounds more natural to me in the brass instruments: the attacks, the vibrato, the pitch shifts...
> 
> The double reeds tend to sound better to my ears, and the legatos are nice overall, but especially in the flutes and single reeds I find that the tongued attacks sound somewhat weird and too artificial, in such a way that it really affects the perception of the tone quality of the sustains that follow. It's difficult to say without being able to play the library myself, but to me the attacks sound either way too "inmediate" and "clean", or way too "noisy" (esp. in the flutes), instead of "naturally airy", if I can put it this way (it's difficult for me to express this in English, the "naturally airy" quality being also so distinctly different in flutes and single reeds). Maybe the sustains are also too "clean/thin", but I think the attacks are resposible for this in a huge way.
> 
> I wonder if that is also your impression, and that of @Dan , @I like music and other users posting examples in this thread.
> 
> Again, thanks for taking the time to post and upload those audio clips!



When people first said the Woodwinds don't sound as natural as the brass, I didn't get it. But now, I kind of hear what they mean. Many of the woodwinds don't sound as... woody(?) as libraries with less processing. They sound a little too sterile and clean compared to traditional libraries. It doesn't bother me that much though because the versatility is still unmatched, and I am a huge fan of the imperceptible dynamics crossfades of both libraries. Woodwinds libraries tend to be blockier and more awkward than their Strings or Brass counterparts, but Infinite Woodwinds is just much more agile and clean, even though that cleanliness goes a little too far at times.


----------



## Dan

servandus said:


> Thanks a lot. So far, I'm much more convinced by the brass than by the woodwinds, not only in respect to timbral realism, but more significantly concerning the performance. Everything sounds more natural to me in the brass instruments: the attacks, the vibrato, the pitch shifts...
> 
> The double reeds tend to sound better to my ears, and the legatos are nice overall, but especially in the flutes and single reeds I find that the tongued attacks sound somewhat weird and too artificial, in such a way that it really affects the perception of the tone quality of the sustains that follow. It's difficult to say without being able to play the library myself, but to me the attacks sound either way too "inmediate" and "clean", or way too "noisy" (esp. in the flutes), instead of "naturally airy", if I can put it this way (it's difficult for me to express this in English, the "naturally airy" quality being also so distinctly different in flutes and single reeds). Maybe the sustains are also too "clean/thin", but I think the attacks are resposible for this in a huge way.
> 
> I wonder if that is also your impression, and that of @Dan , @I like music and other users posting examples in this thread.
> 
> Again, thanks for taking the time to post and upload those audio clips!



I understand your critique, and I agree to a certain extent. If you take the flute for example, I think a lot of what you mentioned comes from the fact that the, I'll say, "tonal component" and the "noise/breath component" of the instrument are different layers that are combined when you play. This may be a very smart choice in terms of flexibiltiy, but doesn't always result in perfect realism.

Although what you can do with the Infinite flute is change the sound by dialing up the "harmonics" – that way you can achieve a sound that is a bit more airy.
Attached is an example of a short melody from Aram Khachaturians Violin Concerto played by the flute. There is absolutely no legato, only notes with their separate attacks.

I tried to achieve a greater amount of airiness while still retaining a somewhat balanced sound. I also tried to achieve smooth and nice sounding attacks in a way that helps the phrasing of the melody.
I think this demo gives a good impression of the strengths in flexibility vs. the flaws in sound.
Parameters that change during the performance are expression, breath noise, harmonics and of course velocity. The rest is fixed.

The sound of the Infinite series isn't perfect, as you rightly pointed out. But for me personally the playability is the reason why I gladly use even the not so perfect sounding instruments. The fact that they can play almost anything I throw at them makes up for those flaws in my opinion.
That being said, I completely understand how someone else might have a different focus based on the kind of musical writing and sound they are trying to achieve.


----------



## anjwilson

One of the selling points of the infinite series is that it requires very little ram. Per Aaron's site, the brass requires around 60mb per instrument and the woodwinds around 40mb.


----------



## 2chris

I've never heard of this one until a recent review on here. I wouldn't buy it, but I see the allure. Some of the woodwinds sounded quite good in the demo. The no hype factor is probably because they aren't spending the money to get that hype.


----------



## schrodinger1612

Deleted my last post - I somehow misread MBs as GBs of RAM; I thought that was a little extreme! My laptop is upgradeable to 32 gigs of ram so I’m sorted there.

These are my CPU specs on a 2011/12 8560w Elitebook

Intel Core i7 (2nd Gen) 2720QM / 2.2 GHz
Max Turbo Speed 3.3 GHz
Quad-Core
It’s no spring chicken but it’s coped so far with some fairly intensive sessions. 

Still, after seeing those performance graphs I’m going to err on the side of caution and consider the VSL bundle over the infinite


----------



## Dan

servandus said:


> Thanks a lot. So far, I'm much more convinced by the brass than by the woodwinds, not only in respect to timbral realism, but more significantly concerning the performance. Everything sounds more natural to me in the brass instruments: the attacks, the vibrato, the pitch shifts...
> 
> The double reeds tend to sound better to my ears, and the legatos are nice overall, but especially in the flutes and single reeds I find that the tongued attacks sound somewhat weird and too artificial, in such a way that it really affects the perception of the tone quality of the sustains that follow. It's difficult to say without being able to play the library myself, but to me the attacks sound either way too "inmediate" and "clean", or way too "noisy" (esp. in the flutes), instead of "naturally airy", if I can put it this way (it's difficult for me to express this in English, the "naturally airy" quality being also so distinctly different in flutes and single reeds). Maybe the sustains are also too "clean/thin", but I think the attacks are resposible for this in a huge way.
> 
> I wonder if that is also your impression, and that of @Dan , @I like music and other users posting examples in this thread.
> 
> Again, thanks for taking the time to post and upload those audio clips!



Just played around with Xfer OTT (a very neat free multiband compressor) to add a bit more air to the Infinite Flute.
I was surprised what a nice sound you can get out of it.


----------



## servandus

Dan said:


> I think a lot of what you mentioned comes from the fact that the, I'll say, "tonal component" and the "noise/breath component" of the instrument are different layers that are combined when you play. This may be a very smart choice in terms of flexibiltiy, but doesn't always result in perfect realism.



Yes, the issue is that those two sound components don't blend at all into a realistic tone. AM flutes, although not sample based, have exactly the same problem for exactly the same reasons. Flutes are clearly difficult beasts to capture/model well.



Dan said:


> Attached is an example of a short melody from Aram Khachaturians Violin Concerto played by the flute. There is absolutely no legato, only notes with their separate attacks.
> I tried to achieve a greater amount of airiness while still retaining a somewhat balanced sound. I also tried to achieve smooth and nice sounding attacks in a way that helps the phrasing of the melody.
> I think this demo gives a good impression of the strengths in flexibility vs. the flaws in sound.



Well, that forte in the lowest octave is challenging even for professional flutists!  Thanks a lot for taking the time to do this, Dan. Right in the first 4 notes one can clearly hear what's going on with the attacks: there is kind of a "bump" (a weird creature which I'd describe like a "heavily eroded bassoon ppp staccato in slow motion" ) clearly separated from the breath noise. I assume that if you keep the same breath noise while setting the attack time to its slowest value, the "bump" would be less prominent but the staccati would be completely ruined at that tempo, right?



Dan said:


> But for me personally the playability is the reason why I gladly use even the not so perfect sounding instruments. The fact that they can play almost anything I throw at them makes up for those flaws in my opinion.



Yes, I'm in the same boat. The fact that Aaron seems to be willing to keep improving these libraries (and the fact that his approach makes it possible) is indeed a great incentive to invest in his Infinite Series.


----------



## servandus

Dan said:


> Just played around with Xfer OTT (a very neat free multiband compressor) to add a bit more air to the Infinite Flute.
> I was surprised what a nice sound you can get out of it.



Yes, it's a very nice sound, but somehow closer to an ethnic flute than a concert flute, imho. Nevertheless, this clearly shows that there's still room for improvement even on the user's side. Have you tried some exciter in the upper octaves when the tone gets thinner?


----------



## Dan

servandus said:


> Yes, it's a very nice sound, but somehow closer to an ethnic flute than a concert flute, imho.



I admit, I might have slightly overdone it with all that airy airiness.


----------



## cug

Has anyone recorded a jazz combo or big band arrangement using Infinite Brass? I'm curious how all those mutes would sound in that context with a bit of growl, falls, etc. I realize it doesn't have all of the articulations you might want in that genre, like doits, wahs, etc. Nonetheless, I think it might play nicely in an arrangement with the SWAM sax VIs to get a quick big band mock-up going.


----------



## Saxer

Being a flute player myself I don‘t have a problem with the sustained tone texture of the Infinite flute. But the attack isn‘t flute like at all. It sounds a bit like a mix of Jan Hammers solo synth (filtered square wave flute) and a flugelhorny attack.
As mentioned here before the Audiomodeling flute has the same problems to connect the noise and the tonal elements to a convincing solo instrument. But raising the vibrato to higher levels does help there a lot. Classical flute players use a rather high amplitude vibrato throughout. For my taste the Infinite flute could be more extreme there too.


----------



## El Buhdai

Saxer said:


> Being a flute player myself I don‘t have a problem with the sustained tone texture of the Infinite flute. But the attack isn‘t flute like at all. It sounds a bit like a mix of Jan Hammers solo synth (filtered square wave flute) and a flugelhorny attack.
> As mentioned here before the Audiomodeling flute has the same problems to connect the noise and the tonal elements to a convincing solo instrument. But raising the vibrato to higher levels does help there a lot. Classical flute players use a rather high amplitude vibrato throughout. For my taste the Infinite flute could be more extreme there too.



Well keep in mind the vibrato intensity is entirely up to you. It's not baked into the samples, so if what you've heard so far is too intense, you can dial it back in your own performances.

EDIT: On second read I think you meant it doesn't get intense _enough_, is that correct? Either way, you should be able to get it as intense or as subtle as you want.


----------



## I like music

The very first thing I did when I got the brass library was to quickly mock up parts of John Williams' Hymn to the Fallen. *Please note that this was with the release v1 which Aaron considerably improved in tone since.*

However, since I lost the project and only had one mp3 lying around, its all I can add. What I want to say is that it was an actually joy getting all those brass instruments to 'play' together so naturally. Simply a combination of dynamics, velocity, and a bit of vibrato. They sound very natural to me. Mocked up in however long it takes to actually draw the lines in.

*Please do note that the tone improvements since this release have been massive.

There was literally no processing here except that I put it through a stock Cubase Reverb.*


----------



## I like music

Also, I recently found out about this John Williams fella. He's pretty good it turns out. You should all check him out. Apparently he landed The Last Jedi job. Such a lucky guy!


----------



## servandus

Saxer said:


> As mentioned here before the Audiomodeling flute has the same problems to connect the noise and the tonal elements to a convincing solo instrument. But raising the vibrato to higher levels does help there a lot.



Do you mean with AM flutes? If so, I must definitely give it a try again. I really gave it up trying to get the AM flute sound like a concert flute. When WIVI instuments were released, I remember myself wishing to have more breath moise in their flutes. Years later AM granted me the wish, and the proverb proved right: "be careful what you wish for; it might just come true".



Saxer said:


> Being a flute player myself I don‘t have a problem with the sustained tone texture of the Infinite flute.



It's definitely much better than that of AM or the old WIVI flutes (both have a strong "oboeish" tone character in certain parts of the register. No doubt there must be something really difficult to model in the flute timbre across its pitch range). Fortunately, Aaron's flute is free from that nasal character, but don't you feel it is too clean/pure/sine-wavish, especially in its middle octave? (more like a fife than a flute sometimes?). Nevertheless, I agree that's not the main problem, but...



Saxer said:


> But the attack isn‘t flute like at all. It sounds a bit like a mix of Jan Hammers solo synth (filtered square wave flute) and a flugelhorny attack.



Exactly, a much better description of the creature than mine. In any case, sort of "Fantastic Beasts and where to find them"... But Aaron did improve the attacks of the brass instruments, so there's hope.



I like music said:


> Also, I recently found out about this John Williams fella. He's pretty good it turns out. You should all check him out. Apparently he landed The Last Jedi job. Such a lucky guy!



Wow! He apparently also wrote a couple more scores worth listening. Very difficult to find, though. Try the dark web.


----------



## I like music

servandus said:


> Do you mean with AM flutes? If so, I must definitely give it a try again. I really gave it up trying to get the AM flute sound like a concert flute. When WIVI instuments were released, I remember myself wishing to have more breath moise in their flutes. Years later AM granted me the wish, and the proverb proved right: "be careful what you wish for; it might just come true".
> 
> 
> 
> It's definitely much better than that of AM or the old WIVI flutes (both have a strong "oboeish" tone character in certain parts of the register. No doubt there must be something really difficult to model in the flute timbre across its pitch range). Fortunately, Aaron's flute is free from that nasal character, but don't you feel it is too clean/pure/sine-wavish, especially in its middle octave? (more like a fife than a flute sometimes?). Nevertheless, I agree that's not the main problem, but...
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, a much better description of the creature than mine. In any case, sort of "Fantastic Beasts and where to find them"... But Aaron did improve the attacks of the brass instruments, so there's hope.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! He apparently also wrote a couple more scores worth listening. Very difficult to find, though. Try the dark web.



Can he do EPIC?


----------



## servandus

I like music said:


> Can he do EPIC?



Like nobody else


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Any news on possible Black Friday discounts on the infinite series? I thought I read something from Aaron (on VI-C) but now I'm doubting myself and couldn't find it.

And this John Williams chap seems to show real promise. I shall watch his career with great interest.


----------



## schrodinger1612

SoNowWhat? said:


> Any news on possible Black Friday discounts on the infinite series? I thought I read something from Aaron (on VI-C) but now I'm doubting myself and couldn't find it.
> 
> And this John Williams chap seems to have real promise. I shall watch his career with great interest.


Here’s an email I received from Aaron

“Infinite Brass will have an Anniversary Event around Black Friday (it was released https://vi-control.net/community/x-apple-data-detectors%3A//1 (on 27th Nov) last year). You might also want to consider subscribing to the newsletter. I won't say more ”


----------



## SoNowWhat?

schrodinger1612 said:


> Here’s an email I received from Aaron
> 
> “Infinite Brass will have an Anniversary Event around Black Friday (it was released https://vi-control.net/community/x-apple-data-detectors%3A//1 (on 27th Nov) last year). You might also want to consider subscribing to the newsletter. I won't say more ”


...and done!
Thank you.


----------



## aaronventure

Eptesicus said:


> I was more curious than anything. I mean part of me may feel short changed in a way (ie that i would only technically be getting one horn, or one trumpet etc), but i guess it is best no to think about it like that. No doubt a huge amount of time, work and expertise has gone into modelling and shaping these samples.


There absolutely are 6 different horns. Try loading Horn 1 twice and just moving one to a different position. You'll get reduced phasing, but there will still be some because it's the same samples underneath. It's why the zone options are included as well (transposing options) so you can beef that up to 30 in total. Although you will run out of positions in a single room and will have to move the rest to a different room and add some reverb (but on top of 18 horns, who will notice?)



I like music said:


> It may have to do with the fact that it was the only instrument that had a different type and degree of 'modelling' done to it


Yeah, flutes are semi-modeled. I have come to regret that decision somewhat, as in their case it invokes more headaches than it solves. The Infinite Brass change log should be a guarantee that I will absolutely not stop until they are 100% up to snuff. They'll most likely get the "Horns' Treatment" in the next patch. 

All this aside, everything's going well for the Black Friday event.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Yeah, flutes are semi-modeled. I have come to regret that decision somewhat, as in their case it invokes more headaches than it solves. The Infinite Brass change log should be a guarantee that I will absolutely not stop until they are 100% up to snuff. They'll most likely get the "Horns' Treatment" in the next patch.
> 
> All this aside, everything's going well for the Black Friday event.



So are you saying that you'd like to re-do the flutes or you'll keep staying with this?

I find that, after some time messing with them, they are already very good.


----------



## Eptesicus

aaronventure said:


> There absolutely are 6 different horns. Try loading Horn 1 twice and just moving one to a different position. You'll get reduced phasing, but there will still be some because it's the same samples underneath. It's why the zone options are included as well (transposing options) so you can beef that up to 30 in total. Although you will run out of positions in a single room and will have to move the rest to a different room and add some reverb (but on top of 18 horns, who will notice?)



Thanks. is this the case for all the instruments across the brass and wind (ie when there are more than one trumpet, flute, oboe etc they are all seperately recorded instruments)?


----------



## aaronventure

Eptesicus said:


> Thanks. is this the case for all the instruments across the brass and wind (ie when there are more than one trumpet, flute, oboe etc they are all seperately recorded instruments)?


Yes. And strings will be 60 individual instruments as well (well, 65 if you count the first chairs).


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

schrodinger1612 said:


> Here’s an email I received from Aaron
> 
> “Infinite Brass will have an Anniversary Event around Black Friday (it was released https://vi-control.net/community/x-apple-data-detectors%3A//1 (on 27th Nov) last year). You might also want to consider subscribing to the newsletter. I won't say more ”



Is that just the brass?


----------



## Montisquirrel

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Is that just the brass?



I hope for a bundle sale


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure - the last thing you want is for something to go wrong with the servers on Black Friday, when everyone is scrambling for various deals etc. To avoid that scenario, I'd say feel free to just do it all today. Maybe in the next couple of hours before my wife and kids get back.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> @aaronventure - the last thing you want is for something to go wrong with the servers on Black Friday, when everyone is scrambling for various deals etc. To avoid that scenario, I'd say feel free to just do it all today. Maybe in the next couple of hours before my wife and kids get back.



I still don't have kids but I quote that (I have a wife).


----------



## El Buhdai

schrodinger1612 said:


> Here’s an email I received from Aaron
> 
> “Infinite Brass will have an Anniversary Event around Black Friday (it was released https://vi-control.net/community/x-apple-data-detectors%3A//1 (on 27th Nov) last year). You might also want to consider subscribing to the newsletter. I won't say more ”



That wink has me excited, but I shall contain said excitement.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I still don't have kids but I quote that (I have a wife).



The more kids (and wives) you have, the less time you have for music. Keep that in mind.


----------



## I like music

servandus said:


> Like nobody else




I'm going to share this tune with my friends. Hopefully give the man some more exposure!


----------



## Eptesicus

Montisquirrel said:


> I hope for a bundle sale



Me too


----------



## El Buhdai

Eptesicus said:


> Me too



As an owner of both libraries, I'm hoping for strings, but I doubt it's coming that soon with all the work that went into the Infinite Brass update. Getting that update would be awesome enough by itself.

I won't be buying my first strings library until I see what Infinite has to offer on that front.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> As an owner of both libraries, I'm hoping for strings, but I doubt it's coming that soon with all the work that went into the Infinite Brass update. Getting that update would be awesome enough by itself.
> 
> I won't be buying my first strings library until I see what Infinite has to offer on that front.



I think we will have to wait longer for strings.


----------



## Montisquirrel

El Buhdai said:


> As an owner of both libraries, I'm hoping for strings, but I doubt it's coming that soon with all the work that went into the Infinite Brass update. Getting that update would be awesome enough by itself.
> 
> I won't be buying my first strings library until I see what Infinite has to offer on that front.



Aaron already said in this thread (page 3) that he first wants to update Brass (I guess update release will be in 2 days), Woodwinds (early 2020) before releasing the strings. So my wild guess is that the strings will not be release before Spring or maybe Summer 2020 (just my thoughts). The good thing is, that with first updating the existing libraries all new knowledge will go into the string library.


----------



## DANIELE

Montisquirrel said:


> Aaron already said in this thread (page 3) that he first wants to update Brass (I guess update release will be in 2 days), Woodwinds (early 2020) before releasing the strings. So my wild guess is that the strings will not be release before Spring or maybe Summer 2020 (just my thoughts). The good thing is, that with first updating the existing libraries all new knowledge will go into the string library.



I don't think we will have to wait so long for strings but for sure we will not see them shortly.


----------



## Montisquirrel

F5


----------



## I like music

Montisquirrel said:


> F5



I also tried F5. Think the keys are broken.


----------



## Tfis

Hi,
I have two questions about this libraries (ww/brass):

Does they have a divisi script implemented?

Can they do Jazz/Bigband stuff?

Thanks


----------



## Paul Jelfs

I have the 2 libraries and they are awesome - especially if you like writing Divisi parts ( not auto, but separate patches )

so much control and a great, human real sound . The only problem ( and its not a criticism because the very nature of the library is to encourage part writing ) , is that I would love their to be a truly poly patch (rather than just the mock with cc64 ) , but I guess that would probably take away all the control over each individual line - Just sometimes love to play a big ensemble brass patch as I am lazy lol 

so yeh , it really is based around writing individual parts, legato and even the shorts - but nothing that a bit of copying and pasting could not solve !


----------



## I like music

Paul Jelfs said:


> I have the 2 libraries and they are awesome - especially if you like writing Divisi parts ( not auto, but separate patches )
> 
> so much control and a great, human real sound . The only problem ( and its not a criticism because the very nature of the library is to encourage part writing ) , is that I would love their to be a truly poly patch (rather than just the mock with cc64 ) , but I guess that would probably take away all the control over each individual line - Just sometimes love to play a big ensemble brass patch as I am lazy lol
> 
> so yeh , it really is based around writing individual parts, legato and even the shorts - but nothing that a bit of copying and pasting could not solve !



Aye. Given that I don't play things in, I usually draw a line for Horns 1. Then I paste the same to the rest of the horns. I then go and randomly tweak the other ones a bit in terms of note length. Then I just tweak the mod and vibrato data for each a little bit. Doesn't take that much time, and suddenly you've got 6 different players playing the same line slightly differently.

I do have a "sketch orchestra" in my template, where I have the legato bypassed. This way I can just slap down some broadstrokes stuff and chords. Like you said though, it results in the same mod/vib data etc being applied to each line. Still, for a sketch it works. Then I can just take each line and paste it into my 'proper' orchestra.

Great libraries. Next few days should be exciting.


----------



## aaronventure

Paul Jelfs said:


> but nothing that a bit of copying and pasting could not solve


This is a problem because no way in hell you would ever get two players start at the exact same time twice. It's apparent in note starts, as well as legato durations. While there won't be an ensemble patch this time, I'm introducing a humanization option. By default, it's off for the first instrument in the family and on for the rest. You can of course disable it with a click or a controller.

So now, copy and pasting MIDI will be officially supported. This speeds up the workflow tremendously.

The initial idea is that there is so much tweaking and so little playing with conventional samples, but if you copy/pasted MIDI with Infinite or played in multiple patches at the same time, there's tweaking here too.

If you now use the humanize option, and your note timings are the same or almost the same for two instruments, you can perform the first one, the copy MIDI and just move the notes. Much faster than adjusting each attack and velocity manually.

It's not exactly autodivisi, but it's more control that that. You preview chords with the pedal (legato bypass), play in a single line, transpose the notes on the other instruments which only takes a couple of seconds (compared to manual adjusting of attacks and velocities).

Not to even mention unison lines. Now, just play it all in at the same time. Attack timings, attack velocities, legato durations all get humanized. I'll talk in detail and demonstrate in the patch rundown. Should be any day now (I always love these last-second setbacks).


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> This is a problem because no way in hell you would ever get two players start at the exact same time twice. It's apparent in note starts, as well as legato durations. While there won't be an ensemble patch this time, I'm introducing a humanization option. By default, it's off for the first instrument in the family and on for the rest. You can of course disable it with a click or a controller.
> 
> So now, copy and pasting MIDI will be officially supported. This speeds up the workflow tremendously.
> 
> The initial idea is that there is so much tweaking and so little playing with conventional samples, but if you copy/pasted MIDI with Infinite or played in multiple patches at the same time, there's tweaking here too.
> 
> If you now use the humanize option, and your note timings are the same or almost the same for two instruments, you can perform the first one, the copy MIDI and just move the notes. Much faster than adjusting each attack and velocity manually.
> 
> It's not exactly autodivisi, but it's more control that that. You preview chords with the pedal (legato bypass), play in a single line, transpose the notes on the other instruments which only takes a couple of seconds (compared to manual adjusting of attacks and velocities).
> 
> Not to even mention unison lines. Now, just play it all in at the same time. Attack timings, attack velocities, legato durations all get humanized. I'll talk in detail and demonstrate in the patch rundown. Should be any day now (I always love these last-second setbacks).



I actually use copy/paste too but I added on every brass track (and on woods and strings aswell) a JS plugin that add some different delay on every track plus I slightly detuned every instrument (as you suggested me in the past).
At the end of this process I do also a light randomization on velocities and note positions on every midi item. By doing this I achieve great realism when I write. Sometimes I play the lines and some others I write every line from scratch, it depends on many workflow factors.

Are you telling me that all this is no more necessary and I have to remove all this adjustements to avoid too much randomization?


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> This is a problem because no way in hell you would ever get two players start at the exact same time twice. It's apparent in note starts, as well as legato durations. While there won't be an ensemble patch this time, I'm introducing a humanization option. By default, it's off for the first instrument in the family and on for the rest. You can of course disable it with a click or a controller.
> 
> So now, copy and pasting MIDI will be officially supported. This speeds up the workflow tremendously.
> 
> The initial idea is that there is so much tweaking and so little playing with conventional samples, but if you copy/pasted MIDI with Infinite or played in multiple patches at the same time, there's tweaking here too.
> 
> If you now use the humanize option, and your note timings are the same or almost the same for two instruments, you can perform the first one, the copy MIDI and just move the notes. Much faster than adjusting each attack and velocity manually.
> 
> It's not exactly autodivisi, but it's more control that that. You preview chords with the pedal (legato bypass), play in a single line, transpose the notes on the other instruments which only takes a couple of seconds (compared to manual adjusting of attacks and velocities).
> 
> Not to even mention unison lines. Now, just play it all in at the same time. Attack timings, attack velocities, legato durations all get humanized. I'll talk in detail and demonstrate in the patch rundown. Should be any day now (I always love these last-second setbacks).



Boom


----------



## aaronventure

DANIELE said:


> I actually use copy/paste too but I added on every brass track (and on woods and strings aswell) a JS plugin that add some different delay on every track plus I slightly detuned every instrument (as you suggested me in the past).
> At the end of this process I do also a light randomization on velocities and note positions on every midi item. By doing this I achieve great realism when I write. Sometimes I play the lines and some others I write every line from scratch, it depends on many workflow factors.
> 
> Are you telling me that all this is no more necessary and I have to remove all this adjustements to avoid too much randomization?



Yeah. All of that will be included as options in the new update.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Yeah. All of that will be included as options in the new update.



Oh, this is great! Native randomization, so this is truly possible. Well I'll remove all the adjustements from the brass, then I think you will implement them on woodwinds and strings aswell so I will remove them from Woods too.

I think this kind of thing will be very useful on percussions too.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Oh, this is great! Native randomization, so this is truly possible. Well I'll remove all the adjustements from the brass, then I think you will implement them on woodwinds and strings aswell so I will remove them from Woods too.
> 
> I think this kind of thing will be very useful on percussions too.



And also on AV Choirs too


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> And also on AV Choirs too



WOW!! This would truly be a no brainer but I think that with the voice it is a whole other thing. Well, let's say that with Oceania PF did a very good job in that direction, so maybe....who knows?


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> WOW!! This would truly be a no brainer but I think that with the voice it is a whole other thing. Well, let's say that with Oceania PF did a very good job in that direction, so maybe....who knows?



Lets interrupt Aaron's day where he's clearly working furiously to release a few things in the next few days, just to ask him about a choir that he's probably not even thought about. You want to do it or should I?


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Lets interrupt Aaron's day where he's clearly working furiously to release a few things in the next few days, just to ask him about a choir that he's probably not even thought about. You want to do it or should I?



Aaron is always projected into the future, we live in the past. So he already knows he want to do a choir library, there's no need for us to say it to him.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Aaron is always projected into the future, we live in the past. So he already knows he want to do a choir library, there's no need for us to say it to him.



Very true!


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> This is a problem because no way in hell you would ever get two players start at the exact same time twice. It's apparent in note starts, as well as legato durations. While there won't be an ensemble patch this time, I'm introducing a humanization option. By default, it's off for the first instrument in the family and on for the rest. You can of course disable it with a click or a controller.
> 
> So now, copy and pasting MIDI will be officially supported. This speeds up the workflow tremendously.
> 
> The initial idea is that there is so much tweaking and so little playing with conventional samples, but if you copy/pasted MIDI with Infinite or played in multiple patches at the same time, there's tweaking here too.
> 
> If you now use the humanize option, and your note timings are the same or almost the same for two instruments, you can perform the first one, the copy MIDI and just move the notes. Much faster than adjusting each attack and velocity manually.
> 
> It's not exactly autodivisi, but it's more control that that. You preview chords with the pedal (legato bypass), play in a single line, transpose the notes on the other instruments which only takes a couple of seconds (compared to manual adjusting of attacks and velocities).
> 
> Not to even mention unison lines. Now, just play it all in at the same time. Attack timings, attack velocities, legato durations all get humanized. I'll talk in detail and demonstrate in the patch rundown. Should be any day now (I always love these last-second setbacks).



I sequence Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds, so this is extremely exciting. I was just doing research into writing a multiscript for the Infinite libraries that does just this. Now that it'll be supported natively, I'm very happy. I understand there were some last-minute hold-ups, but I can't wait to get my hands on this update whenever it's ready.


----------



## erikradbo

This thread has now after 263 posts counter-proved it's own title.

Edit: And now the title changed so this post doesn't make much sense anymore...


----------



## El Buhdai

erikradbo said:


> This thread has now after 263 posts counter-proved it's own title.
> 
> Edit: And now the title changed so this post doesn't make much sense anymore...



I blame you


----------



## gum

BF hasn't started yet? 
The budget will run out!!


----------



## Max Bonsi

Aaron give us a sign...


----------



## DANIELE

Be patient guys, Aaron never disappoint us.

Let him do his work and it will bring to us gold as always.


----------



## I like music

Infinite Bump


----------



## I like music

If we don't hear anything on Black Friday, tomorrow will officially be called Sad Saturday. And then Super Sad Sunday. Then Mournful Monday. Then Terrible Tuesday. And so on...


----------



## Frank1985

He said there’d be an announcement _around_ Black Friday, not on it...


----------



## I like music

Frank1985 said:


> He said there’d be an announcement _around_ Black Friday, not on it...



I know, I know. It is a kind of running joke where we express our joy/interest by keeping Aaron in the loop about our deepest anxieties about the products he's releasing etc.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I know, I know. It is a kind of running joke where we express our joy/interest by keeping Aaron in the loop about our deepest anxieties about the products he's releasing etc.



It's good silly fun, but hopefully it's not too much pressure for him or stressful.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> It's good silly fun, but hopefully it's not too much pressure for him or stressful.



Yep, true. It is never intended that way, but perhaps it does have that effect?


----------



## DANIELE

I think he has a great respect for his products owners but I also think he will work following his own pace, and this is good. No rushing = better product for us.

I'm also waiting for his new updates and libraries so much but I'm also enjoying what I already have the same.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Yep, true. It is never intended that way, but perhaps it does have that effect?



At the risk of upping the pressure even more (sorry!), I suspect he's losing more and more potential sales by the hour as people blow their BF budget...

I hope the hangups get resolved, cause he deserves all the sales he can get!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I'm already having a hard time deciding whether or not to wait for Cinematic Studio Woodwinds or buy Infinite Woodwinds. If IW goes on sale, I'm screwed.


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of upping the pressure even more (sorry!), I suspect he's losing more and more potential sales by the hour as people blow their BF budget...
> 
> I hope the hangups get resolved, cause he deserves all the sales he can get!


Eh, if it's not ready, it's not ready. If it needs a day or two longer, then that's what it is. I prefer to do it to the best of my ability even if it takes a little longer. 

Don't worry guys, we'll have our own Black Friday... with blackjack and hookers. It'll run for 2 weeks so you'll have plenty of time to decide as well.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

aaronventure said:


> Eh, if it's not ready, it's not ready. If it needs a day or two longer, then that's what it is. I prefer to do it to the best of my ability even if it takes a little longer.
> 
> Don't worry guys, we'll have our own Black Friday... with blackjack and hookers. It'll run for 2 weeks so you'll have plenty of time to decide as well.



If there's going to be blackjack and hooker, you might as well forget the sale @aaronventure. But honestly, once again, I really admire your mentality about all this, gives me confidence in the product and future instalments, and also future investments from us the customer.


----------



## Max Bonsi

aaronventure said:


> Eh, if it's not ready, it's not ready. If it needs a day or two longer, then that's what it is. I prefer to do it to the best of my ability even if it takes a little longer.
> 
> Don't worry guys, we'll have our own Black Friday... with blackjack and hookers. It'll run for 2 weeks so you'll have plenty of time to decide as well.


Once again Top Quality Man
I am with you
I will wait


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Eh, if it's not ready, it's not ready. If it needs a day or two longer, then that's what it is. I prefer to do it to the best of my ability even if it takes a little longer.
> 
> Don't worry guys, we'll have our own Black Friday... with blackjack and hookers. It'll run for 2 weeks so you'll have plenty of time to decide as well.



Exactly as I said, thank you Aaron. Keep doing this.


----------



## Frank1985

Hoping the woods go on sale along with the brass as I was planning on picking them both up


----------



## Eptesicus

Frank1985 said:


> Hoping the woods go on sale along with the brass as I was planning on picking them both up



me too.

Some sort of megatastic black friday bundle (with blackjack and hookers).

Although i will admit it is between this and Junkie XL brass for my black friday/xmas money this year....i simply cant decide.


----------



## Frank1985

Hookers would be a bonus...actually I’d be happy with just the hookers.

For me I’m struggling to decide between this and cinematic studio brass/strings. I’m leaning towards infinite as the developer seems keen to build upon it, thus making it ‘future proof’


----------



## DANIELE

You are comparing very different libraries, for me you should only decide if you want to write music or program music.

With infinite libraries you are totally free to create your own articulations, with other libraries you are limited on using what developers give to you.

I would have no doubt on what to choose but think well about what you want.


----------



## Eptesicus

DANIELE said:


> You are comparing very different libraries, for me you should only decide if you want to write music or program music.
> 
> With infinite libraries you are totally free to create your own articulations, with other libraries you are limited on using what developers give to you.
> 
> I would have no doubt on what to choose but think well about what you want.



I simply want what will enable me to creat the most relaistic sounding mock ups. Thats it really.


----------



## decredis

I see the front page of AV’s website has been updated to show a new ETA for the strings (2020). Hoping this means the anticipated update and sale is soon to come.


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> I see the front page of AV’s website has been updated to show a new ETA for the strings (2020). Hoping this means the anticipated update and sale is soon to come.



I was just wondering when he would change it.


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> I was just wondering when he would change it.


If nothing else, my obsessive refreshing of that page has given me the opportunity to fully appreciate the aesthetic and thematic choices in the visual design of the site.


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> If nothing else, my obsessive refreshing of that page has given me the opportunity to fully appreciate the aesthetic and thematic choices in the visual design of the site.



I understand you, I'm hyped so much for strings but I'm also hyped for updates on Brass and Woods.


----------



## I like music

What reverbs do you guys use?

[EDIT] Whoops, wrong thread. Oh hey, what's this thread about?


----------



## I like music

I want to bump this thread to see if we know when things are coming, but I'm not going to bump it.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I want to bump this thread to see if we know when things are coming, but I'm not going to bump it.




It's unfortunate that we haven't heard anything since Black Friday. I'm really craving those new trumpets.


----------



## aaronventure

Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.

Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).


Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.




Wow.... Just wow. You really were not exaggerating when you told me it was a night and day difference via email.


----------



## DANIELE

I'm curious to:

1) Hear all the improvements on all the instruments of IB;
2) Hear the same improvements in woodwinds too;
3) Listen to the strings; :D
4) Listen to the percussions.

I'd like to have a time machine to have all of this on my PC.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.




Fuck YES.


----------



## I like music

Is this more likely to be a Christmas present, or a 202 treat to help us get through the terrible month of January?


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Is this more likely to be a Christmas present, or a 202 treat to help us get through the terrible month of January?



At this point I wouldn't get your hopes up on any of the ETAs, because at the end of the day he's one guy, and the nature of the work seems conducive to unexpected problems at the last minute. One thing's for certain though. Based on that demo, the update's gonna be awesome when it's finally ready!


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> At this point I wouldn't get your hopes up on any of the ETAs, because at the end of the day he's one guy, and the nature of the work seems conducive to unexpected problems at the last minute. One thing's for certain though. Based on that demo, the update's gonna be awesome when it's finally ready!



100%!


----------



## aaronventure

DANIELE said:


> I'm curious to:
> 
> 1) Hear all the improvements on all the instruments of IB;


They sound amazing.



DANIELE said:


> 2) Hear the same improvements in woodwinds too;


They will sound amazing once the improvements are implemented there. 



DANIELE said:


> 3) Listen to the strings; :D


Me too.



DANIELE said:


> 4) Listen to the percussions.


Me too  

Well, the 1-megabyte 36-inch bass drum sounds amazing, but _that's _something you'll have to take my word for (for now).


----------



## Pontus Rufelt

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.




Impressive! Do you anticipate a December release for this?


----------



## Rv5

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.




Sounds incredible! Congrats!


----------



## Lassi Tani

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.




What magic is this?


----------



## servandus

Finally saved some money for the infinite series after following this thread. Now, listening to that Malcolm Arnold Fantasy, I couldn't be happier that I didn't spend that money during the BF/Xmas sales. Probably the best classical solo demo I've ever heard.


----------



## axb312

@aaronventure are the mutes in the brass library recorded or simulated?


----------



## aaronventure

axb312 said:


> @aaronventure are the mutes in the brass library recorded or simulated?


Simulations of recordings. Using impulse responses.


----------



## I like music

Would love to see the MIDI for this too.


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> Would love to see the MIDI for this too.


Will be available for download on the demo page when the update hits, as per usual.






Some details: 

Runs at 0:50





The ending:





Sprinkle in some Vibrato/CC21 when necessary. As you can see, it's all very simple and intuitive. Note velocity, note duration, CC1.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Will be available for download on the demo page when the update hits, as per usual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some details:
> 
> Runs at 0:50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ending:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sprinkle in some Vibrato/CC21 when necessary. As you can see, it's all very simple and intuitive. Note velocity, note duration, CC1.



Lovely! Just wanted everyone else to see how easy it is to actually create convincing performances with this, and for the people who don't have library, it should prove just how simple it is. Congratulations, it sounds brilliant. If you could only buy one brass library, this ought to be it.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> They sound amazing.



Well, so we have only to wait (please Christmas gift, pretty pleeeeeease!). 



aaronventure said:


> They will sound amazing once the improvements are implemented there.



I have no doubt, I can't wait for this update on woodwinds.



aaronventure said:


> Me too.



So, do you want me too listen to the strings? Or do YOU want to listen to the strings? I mean...you want to listen to the strings but you are already listening to them, so I think you meant that you want I'll listen to the strings, so we are finally two people to want that I will listen to the strings and one of these two people is the one that has the power to make it true. Am I right? 



aaronventure said:


> Me too
> 
> Well, the 1-megabyte 36-inch bass drum sounds amazing, but _that's _something you'll have to take my word for (for now).



Holy.... 

I belive you, and about the same "me too" statement, look at the previous answer, it is too long to write it again.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.




I keep coming back to this. I can't think of another VI besides SM that could perform this with anywhere near the ease and convincingly. I wasn't familiar with the piece. If you aren't, go listen to one of the originals, then listen to this, and then think about which other libraries would manage it.

Super work.


----------



## Consona

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.







Your libraries are getting better and better. Some very impressive passages in that demo. Definitely some stuff that would sound crap or be straight-up impossible with other sample libraries. You are starting to outshine the competition. You are gradually improving the sound while playability is great already. Those repetitions need some more work, IMO.

Have you considered sampling sections, so we have this fantastic playability with something like a4 sound?

And have you considered adding an option to buy single instruments, something like OT is planning to do, or some essential package or something?

Thx!


----------



## Max Bonsi

Just one question: when?


----------



## Eptesicus

The playability and agility is great. I do dislike the attacks still somewhat. Also repetitions sound very machine gun like sometimes, which is odd considering how this is supposed to operate/work.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.



I like how this sounds. Have you considered also selling this as a standalone instrument? I just can't spring for the whole package if there's only one instrument I need from it.


----------



## tonaliszt

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I like how this sounds. Have you considered also selling this as a standalone instrument? I just can't spring for the whole package if there's only one instrument I need from it.


+1000
It would be great to get these as standalone instruments for those who don't need the whole package. It would also be a great way to get a taste of the full library! There are likely a lot of people who would spring immediately for a smaller and less overwhelming collection.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Consona said:


> Have you considered sampling sections, so we have this fantastic playability with something like a4 sound?



This is also something that interests me very much. Infinite Brass looks awesome, I like the concept behind it very much, but brought up this question in another thread, maybe someone could shed some light on the question of sampling whole sections vs building your own with single Instruments:

"One point that confuses me is that I often read here on VI control that especially brass ensembles should be recorded together, as opposed to layering single instruments in order to achieve an artificial ensemble. This makes sense from a physical perspective (overlapping of the sound waves before they reach the microphone etc.)"

Looking forward for the update, keep up the good work! Thx, oxy


----------



## servandus

I like music said:


> I keep coming back to this. I can't think of another VI besides SM that could perform this with anywhere near the ease and convincingly.



Exactly my thoughts. It takes guts (and a superb virtual instrument) to make a demo like this: a solo instrument, completely exposed, playing such a musically and technically challenging piece of the classical repertoire (with a lot of great recordings available for comparison) featuring a lot of different playing techniques... and providing the midi file for study. Wish this were the standard for demoing libs. I'm just waiting for that two week-long custom BF sale he mentioned to start enjoying these instruments.

BTW. Check the other solo fantasies by Arnold if you don't know them. This and the flute fantasy are my favourite, but they're all very enjoyable works.


----------



## I like music

servandus said:


> Exactly my thoughts. It takes guts (and a superb virtual instrument) to make a demo like this: a solo instrument, completely exposed, playing such a musically and technically challenging piece of the classical repertoire (with a lot of great recordings available for comparison) featuring a lot of different playing techniques... and providing the midi file for study. Wish this were the standard for demoing libs. I'm just waiting for that two week-long custom BF sale he mentioned to start enjoying these instruments.
> 
> BTW. Check the other solo fantasies by Arnold if you don't know them. This and the flute fantasy are my favourite, but they're all very enjoyable works.



Hah, funny you should mention it. I spent quite a while cycling through the other fantasies. They grabbed me, weirdly. Had never heard of him before.


----------



## Consona

Oxytoxine said:


> This is also something that interests me very much. Infinite Brass looks awesome, I like the concept behind it very much, but brought up this question in another thread, maybe someone could shed some light on the question of sampling whole sections vs building your own with single Instruments:
> 
> "One point that confuses me is that I often read here on VI control that especially brass ensembles should be recorded together, as opposed to layering single instruments in order to achieve an artificial ensemble. This makes sense from a physical perspective (overlapping of the sound waves before they reach the microphone etc.)"
> 
> Looking forward for the update, keep up the good work! Thx, oxy


Yes. The sound of 4 horns in a room is just different to 4 sampled solo horns playing together.

I don't know how Infinity Brass sampling works compared to "normal" sample libraries, how much material is needed to make an IB instrument. Either way, 4 times more players is a 4 times bigger expenditure.


----------



## AEF

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.




Astounding


----------



## RogiervG

Wow that 1.4 version demo sounds stunningly real for a fake one. 
If you close your eyes, you HEAR a trumpet being played live. Well done Aaron.


----------



## zimm83

Fantastic!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I find this series really convincing. after having listened to the demos and the videos well I have the impression to hear all the faults of the virtual instruments which do not have the technique of phase alignment ! these instruments are not necessarily epic like many competitors but just authentic. For example listen to the Rhapsody in blue demo and compare it with versions of real orchestras: it's really amazing. I like the idea that all the beauty of the game will depend on the midi programmer (vibrato rate, depth, attack of the notes) unfortunately it is perhaps also what makes its weak point from the point of view of certain users who listen for example a sustain note, right of the box, without making it "live". personally I tell myself that in the future, I want to spend more time on my keyboard, my music, my ideas and less time wondering which articulation I will choose from among twenty available. I am really surprised to find that in France infinite woodwinds and brass are unknown


----------



## El Buhdai

With all these new folks coming in and stating their positive impressions of these libraries, I wonder if their reception is less mixed now, or if we have a silent majority of folks who still aren't fans of the sound and are just not partaking in this thread. Either way, I'm glad these libraries are finally starting to gain more of the recognition they deserve.


----------



## decredis

aaronventure said:


> Not that far off. It'll be worth it, trust me. In fact you don't have to take my word for it, here's a "quick" demo.
> 
> Trumpet 1. Soloist position (in the middle, closer to the main mics for a more exposed sound).
> 
> 
> Yes, this is pretty much unprocessed (mild compression), out of the box.



Ha, I just played this to my not-easily-impressed father. Usually when I show him VIs or demos of VIs, he will say something like "I wonder if you could do something like [some specific composer/performer] in this" in a sceptical tone that implies that you definitely couldn't. With this, though, he said "I wonder if you could do a Miles Davis piece with this." and immediately answered himself "You probably could, couldn't you?" and his tone was one of excitement. 

I'm sure *I* personally couldn't do anything quite that amazing with it, but I'm nonetheless excitedly awaiting the update and (hopefully) sale period that will be my jumping on point for IB and IW.


----------



## RogiervG

El Buhdai said:


> With all these new folks coming in and stating their positive impressions of these libraries, I wonder if their reception is less mixed now, or if we have a silent majority of folks who still aren't fans of the sound and are just not partaking in this thread. Either way, I'm glad these libraries are finally starting to gain more of the recognition they deserve.



My take:

These two libs are not marketed well enough i guess. And because the pricing is quite high for what they are (modeled instruments), i guess people are a bit reluctant on purchasing it with only a few official demos, and barely any end user ones. Also barely no reviews from big players people visit and take his/her word for the ultimate verdictive truth. 



The community need to grow, the marketing needs to be better and ofcourse good demos/videos showcasing it all. (like spitfire Audio does e.g.)


----------



## Eptesicus

I think the playability and agility are amazing. Especially solo wise.

I'm yet to be completely convinced by a big ensemble demo though, tone/sound wise.

I'm very tempted to get it at some point especially for exposed solo lines.

There are some things I dont like. For example, in the comparison thread Leia demo, the solo horn seems to have an attack still present even for the legato transitions which sounds somewhat unnatural.

With the continuing development though, I can see this range of libraries getting better and better though with time.


----------



## pierrevigneron

he also says that Aaron has only been there for less than a year. Some good comments, good demos, reviews and we can think that it should join the biggest developers (in any case it deserves it). I can't wait to hear the strings, because producing 16 violins that play together (making 16x a single violin) must be very hard as some interact with each other. if it succeeds, it is the promise of the most customizable string library while being easy to play


----------



## pierrevigneron

For the Leia theme : i find the second flute more organic. Maybe the demo was made with the flute1 more airy (that i have eared on walktrough)


----------



## Tfis

afaik only the flutes are modelled


----------



## pierrevigneron

No sample in the flutes ?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

None of them are truly modelled. If anything, they are semi-modelled, at most. He had to take a different approach with the flutes compared to the rest of them. If I understood correctly he separated the harmonics from the body of the instrument for some reason and then stitch them back together in-engine.

Not sure if there's any definition for what a modelled and semi-modelled instrument is. So it depends on what _you _would say a modelled instruments is, doesn't it? All the instruments in the Infinite series are based on samples. A different sample set for each instrument; Flute 1 has one set, and Flute 2 another. The rest is taken care of with scripting, or magic, I'm not entirely sure. So the humanisation that comes from a real player, e.g difference in attack and pitch, is done with cleaver scripting and lots of math, not from the recordings themselves. Same goes for the legato.

My own definition is that since the Infinite series uses a minimum set of samples and the rest of it is taken care of via scripts and math, it's to some degree modelled. It's not a performance of someone playing it that way, it's just based on the samples of the instrument and then moulded into what we hear via scripting and mathematics. The raw samples are probably very dead, but with the scripting they become alive.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jonathan Moray said:


> The raw samples are probably very dead, but with the scripting they become alive.



The raw samples are worse than you can imagine (completely dry, sounding as if the mic was placed deep in the instrument's bell. Almost sounds like a sine wave on some instruments), which only makes me even more amazed at what Aaron was able to craft from them. I would share a comparison between a raw sample from Infinite and an Infinite instrument playing the same note, but I might risk getting into unauthorized redistribution territory and we don't want that. Let's just say, if you buy the instruments and look under the hood, they only become even more impressive.


----------



## pierrevigneron

In fact it is what a real wind/brass musician does : he/she scuplts a primitive sound and gains from it all imperfections, variations, inflections, vibrato etc that's music in fact ! Aaron seems to allow us to be a musician more than a midi programmer


----------



## I like music

I saw a documentary on the TV today which said that because of rising sea levels, we will all die on Jan 1, 2020. I would be crushed if I did not get to play with IB Version 1.4 before we all perish in the floods.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I saw a documentary on the TV today which said that because of rising sea levels, we will all die on Jan 1, 2020. I would be crushed if I did not get to play with IB Version 1.4 before we all perish in the floods.



Aaron did you read? Let us face the apocalypse happily.


----------



## tabulius

Wow, that trumpet was agile! SM level for sure. I would like to vote for a seperate solo instruments release. Or individual instruments.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Happy New year 😊🎉🎺♥️
pierre from France


----------



## Oxytoxine

I bought the woods precisely at midnight to prevent the apocalypse - seems it worked!


----------



## I like music

Oxytoxine said:


> I bought the woods precisely at midnight to prevent the apocalypse - seems it worked!



You merely averted it for one week. If they aren't released by the end of the week, the world _will_ end.

Oxytoxine, do you have the brass? I saw that you had bought JXL. Curious to know if you bought that _and_ Infinite, or just separately.

What are your thoughts on the woods so far?


----------



## Loïc D

One more vote here for separate instruments !


----------



## Oxytoxine

I like music said:


> You merely averted it for one week. If they aren't released by the end of the week, the world _will_ end.
> 
> Oxytoxine, do you have the brass? I saw that you had bought JXL. Curious to know if you bought that _and_ Infinite, or just separately.
> 
> What are your thoughts on the woods so far?



Hello!

Yes, I was a bit crazy in the last month and spent way too much money on trying to find a toolset that suits me. Who cares when the world will end anyway 

No, I currently only got the winds, to try out the concept (actually, I was waiting for Infinite Brass and thought that this was the only additional library that I will buy in the foreseeable future, but then the black Friday hype came around – I was not strong enough to resist and ended up with BBCSO and JXL Brass as well).

Hmm, I am not really qualified / experienced enough to make a valuable statement, as I can compare the winds only to the Chris Hein winds, the ones that are in the Berlin Inspire Series, now BBCSO (also some smaller sketching things like BDT, Amadeus,The Orchestra, and the very old KH Emerald orchestra).

If I read correctly, you mostly piano roll your music; I am at the opposite end of the spectrum and try to play in as much “live” as possible, so your preferences / experience may be completely different.

With these preliminary remarks in mind, here are some of my impressions of the Infinite Winds.


Tonewise, I am a bit torn. To be honest, and this is no discredit to Aaron, I, as some other posters, also hear a certain “synthiness” (for lack of a better expression) in the instruments when directly comparing them to some other samples. Some of the “airiness” and beautiful timbre that some other woodwind samples inherently have when playing lyrical lines is missing a bit. The instruments seem to be very “cutting”, and “upfront”. But this was to be expected, and I was actually positively surprised there. By no means do they sound bad, it’s just a certain tradeoff, and I think they do surprisingly well in this regard. (Furthermore, I start to realize that buried in a mix all of this does not really matter as much as I thought, see below). But just tonewise, I prefer the Hein and also Spitfire woods in some instruments, whereas it may also be the other way round in others. Probably a matter of taste, too.

Playability: As a keyboard player (not a good one  on the search for tools that allow me to work faster, more “live” and intuitively, I was very fascinated by the Infinite series and the idea to say goodbye to keyswitching etc. and to perform CCs instead of drawing them.

At first, I was slightly disappointed, because I expected a “night and day” difference. Many of the nuances when using some of the controllers are rather subtle, and one has to find the “sweet spots” where things are emerging (combinations of velocity, dynamics, playing speed, and other settings). To me, e.g. vibrato and flutter do not sound as natural as the recorded ones in other libraries, but are very functional. And generally, Infinite woods are much more playable, which is great!

It’s not like with e.g. the JB Violin or Emotional or Virharmonic Cello, meaning that the instrument “does the work for you” and by simply playing and changing some CCs it will sound gorgeous by itself. One has to really learn and perform the instrument – a process that just started for me, but which will pay off in a fantastic manner I am sure. This also has one more very positive aspect: predictability / reliability. I like this very much, it’s very straightforward and predictable. The walkthroughs are very honest and give a good picture.

So to put it bluntly: Probably an expertly crafted lyrical line with tons of keyswitches and midi massage using a fine sample lib will, for my ears, sound better than the Infinite series from a purely sonical / timbral perspective, but will also be more robotic, less fluent, and associated with a different set of hurdles during production. Now what one considers to be more musical is up to debate. For me it’s very similar to Pianoteq vs purely sampled piano libs, in case you can relate to this (I know, Infinite is not purely modelled, I just meant the tone vs. playability aspect / tradeoff).

Not sure yet about the aspect of blending with other libs, first because I am a noob in this regard, and second because Aaron mentioned that spatialization tools are not optimal to use with his instruments, so I did not yet even try.

What I also noticed, and this has nothing to do with the Infinite Series, are two fundamental insights for myself: a) playing and controlling CCs “live” has its limitations, because I only have one hand free for the controllers and one expression pedal, so the other controller lanes I have to draw in later anyway. b) the bigger my projects / orchestrations go, the less important are these small details in expression. I still have to fight my habit and expectation that each line should be an expressive artwork on its own. Too often than not this is not only unnecessary, but straight counterproductive with respect to a cohesive endresult.

So, these would be the only small "nitpicks" I had from my limited perspective, and note: I could write a whole lot longer on the positive sides! It's a great instrument.

I would like to go full in on the Infinite Series, because going back to keyswitches is honestly a pain for me after experiencing these new instruments. I also very much support and appreciate how Aaron participates, is open for feedback, and dedicated to his instruments.

What I fear is that o whole orchestra using these instruments might sound noticeably less natural and with less expressive potential (by no means saying it is – just my fear at the moment). Especially since so many people say that building brass / string ensemble from single instruments is so completely different / less optimal than recording them together. But the concept – I find it genius and am very much looking forward to this development.

So, have a good start into the new year - and see you guys with blackjack and hookers (which will be a waste, because we will just play brass), hopefully soon :D


----------



## pierrevigneron

I reproduced the beginning of bagatelle (#2) from VSL demo page to see how it is doing





WOODWINDS I - Vienna Symphonic Library


The Woodwinds I Collection contains the four main wind instruments, flute, oboe, clarinet, and bassoon – each recorded as a solo instrument and in three-player ensembles. First-rate musicians of leading European orchestras provide the sound and character as soloists and ensemble leaders.




www.vsl.co.at




What do you think about ? I prefer the sound timbre of VSL but frankly, infinite woodwinds sounds good ! Cheaper, without keyswitch, very configurable, a very friendly, accessible developer, concerned with ensuring the longevity of his products ... I do not regret my purchase at all!


----------



## pierrevigneron

(I reproduced by ear so it is certain that with the score it would sound closer to the original and probably better)


----------



## Erik

Thanks for sharing Pierre.

For me, the timbre of the VSL winds has more dimensions than the IW, if I may say so. The first notes of the bassoon are completely different as you can hear easily, also I miss the specific velvet tone in the IW clarinet, which has the VSL clearly. So in the IW version all instruments are there and also not in a way. Difficult to explain for me, not a native speaker.

I agree with all other things you mentioned, but I sincerely hope that Aaron is able to fix the issues that are mentioned here before.

BTW, I use this software, but I haven't been convinced too much with the sound of it. I must say, I was quite dissapointed when I opened the flute for the first time. It has some features of this instrument, but never heard a little bit of the silver tone/real thing so far. 

It took some time to get things better: adjusting vibrato, rate, velocity. After all it needs sometimes the same imput time-wise imo as with the sampled libraries.

It maybe depends how exposed things are and the capabilities of the one who uses a library. An experienced midi-whiz like Jay Bacal makes almost everything to a next level.

I am sure Aaron will read this. I wish him luck with further developments, in a way I think the future for us will be somewhere direction modeled. But we are far from there yet when it comes down to an analogue feeling.


----------



## aaronventure

Improvements from Infinite Brass 1.4 will make their way to Woodwinds in the next few months. I agree about the flutes, which is why they will be getting a full rework (much like the trumpets in the upcoming Brass update). I think I already wrote this somewhere in this thread.

As for the Brass update, I'm waiting for some legal stuff so it's out of my hands. As soon as I get the go-ahead, I'm hitting the switch. Could be today, could be next week.


----------



## DANIELE

You have to remember that IW is younger than IB and Aaron made only one patch for this library, it has for sure more things to come to upgrade it.
Has many pointed out (even me) these libraries need a long time to know how to use them and they are not ready out of the box. I'm still learning how to achieve the best results with them by experimenting and sometime asking to Aaron itself how to reach some result.
I applied some Aaron advices on the libraries and they changed them a lot. Some of this will be native in the new IB update and will be the same on the next IW update.
Every update brings a lot of fresh air on Infinite Series.

With IW e Audio Modeling WW I feel complete, I'll wait for updates from Aaron but I'm actually in a position where I cannot came back to keyswitching.

Since I have these libraries my compositions finally have the freedom and variations I always needed.

EDIT

Aaron just answered about it up here.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Improvements from Infinite Brass 1.4 will make their way to Woodwinds in the next few months. I agree about the flutes, which is why they will be getting a full rework (much like the trumpets in the upcoming Brass update). I think I already wrote this somewhere in this thread.
> 
> As for the Brass update, I'm waiting for some legal stuff so it's out of my hands. As soon as I get the go-ahead, I'm hitting the switch. Could be today, could be next week.



I hate legal stuff.


----------



## Montisquirrel

aaronventure said:


> Improvements from Infinite Brass 1.4 will make their way to Woodwinds in the next few months. I agree about the flutes, which is why they will be getting a full rework (much like the trumpets in the upcoming Brass update). I think I already wrote this somewhere in this thread.
> 
> As for the Brass update, I'm waiting for some legal stuff so it's out of my hands. As soon as I get the go-ahead, I'm hitting the switch. Could be today, could be next week.



Yes, looking forward to it. I started to make a break from social media / forums but need to come back to this thread for new informations about your series.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Improvements from Infinite Brass 1.4 will make their way to Woodwinds in the next few months. I agree about the flutes, which is why they will be getting a full rework (much like the trumpets in the upcoming Brass update). I think I already wrote this somewhere in this thread.
> 
> As for the Brass update, I'm waiting for some legal stuff so it's out of my hands. As soon as I get the go-ahead, I'm hitting the switch. Could be today, could be next week.



Can see why legal got involved. That v1.4 trumpet demo shouldn't be legal. Goodluck and looking forward to the release.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Can see why legal got involved. That v1.4 trumpet demo shouldn't be legal. Goodluck and looking forward to the release.



Can you imagine the flutes rework?


----------



## servandus

I like music said:


> That v1.4 trumpet demo shouldn't be legal.



Ah, you key-switcher, keeper of the sampling traditions, don't you dare! 

@aaronventure Will the 2-week sales you mentioned coincide with the release of the brass update? Do you plan to include also the IW/IB bundle in the sale? I'm glad that you're considering a full rework of the flute. Wish you could take it to the level of the new trumpet (it really sounds impressive). I hope the legal stuff is sorted out as soon as possible.

May the new year be fruitful and witness the completion of your infinite series (can't wait to hear what you can do with the strings). All the best for you and everyone else in the forum.


----------



## aaronventure

servandus said:


> Will the 2-week sales you mentioned coincide with the release of the brass update?


Yes.


servandus said:


> Do you plan to include also the IW/IB bundle in the sale?


Of course.


----------



## servandus

Great. Thanks!


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> As for the Brass update, I'm waiting for some legal stuff so it's out of my hands. As soon as I get the go-ahead, I'm hitting the switch. Could be today, could be next week.



The law is holding me back from those delicious new trumpets! :(

Well, on the bright side, you'll have time to take a break or work on the woodwinds update while we all wait. If these legal hangups make the wait between this update and the IW update even a couple days shorter I'm happy. If not, I still continue to be amazed by and thankful for your transparency. I check this thread basically every day just in case you announce the update. Can't wait!


----------



## artinro

aaronventure said:


> Improvements from Infinite Brass 1.4 will make their way to Woodwinds in the next few months. I agree about the flutes, which is why they will be getting a full rework (much like the trumpets in the upcoming Brass update). I think I already wrote this somewhere in this thread.
> 
> As for the Brass update, I'm waiting for some legal stuff so it's out of my hands. As soon as I get the go-ahead, I'm hitting the switch. Could be today, could be next week.



@aaronventure, the trumpet example you posted a few weeks back was quite impressive. Can you tell us about some of the other things you focused on for this update, Aaron? What were your main goals for 1.4? Looking forward to hearing more.


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> take a break


lmao



artinro said:


> What were your main goals for 1.4?


The goal was always to make the instruments sound as good as possible while improving the overall workflow. While playability has remained on the same high level since release, the updates were mostly focusing on updating the sound. In that regard, 1.4 will be monumental. You'll hear all the details when it goes live, I'll do a full rundown, provide context etc.


----------



## shawnsingh

Just got infinite brass. Looking forward to 1.4 update. I played around mainly with trumpet 1.3 so far and it was great! 

I haven't played around as much with trombones and tuba yet, but did not yet feel inspired by them... But I do owe them more time first.

One personal request I have is to have an option to skip the extreme portamento with a midi CC. I totally see the value of it, and I would end up using it when post-editing midi, but for playability my brain is to hardwired to play low velocities, and I keep unavoidably triggering the portamentos when I don't want to.

other feedback, as much as I love playable instruments like this, it would be great to have specific phenomena be modeled. Perhaps these kinds of things could be intelligently scripted, but also midi controllable for post editing the midi:

Tongue stopped note release versus breath stopped
I wonder if it would be possible to modeling three specific things I think brass players do during transitions: (1) valve or slide position, (2) harmonic position of the embrochure, and (3) re-tonguing. The beauty of real legato transitions (and not just legato, actually) happens when players are imperfect about embrochure, so they hit notes across the harmonic series in between, but also even more interesting, it sounds real when the timing of these three effects is not lined up perfectly. So a transition that requires a valve fingering change and a shift in harmonic position could have an arbitrary note very briefly sounding in between. Etc. I think it may be possible to script this, like an alternate to portamentos where note velocities somehow controller the amount of imperfection in the timing of these three factors.
Anyway, this is a very exciting library and looking forward to future updates. Congrats and thanks for this!


----------



## artinro

aaronventure said:


> lmao
> 
> 
> The goal was always to make the instruments sound as good as possible while improving the overall workflow. While playability has remained on the same high level since release, the updates were mostly focusing on updating the sound. In that regard, 1.4 will be monumental. You'll hear all the details when it goes live, I'll do a full rundown, provide context etc.



Thanks for the reply, Aaron. Can’t wait to hear what you’ve come up with.


----------



## AEF

i check the site daily for the 1.4 update. cannot wait.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Just got infinite brass. Looking forward to 1.4 update. I played around mainly with trumpet 1.3 so far and it was great!
> 
> I haven't played around as much with trombones and tuba yet, but did not yet feel inspired by them... But I do owe them more time first.
> 
> One personal request I have is to have an option to skip the extreme portamento with a midi CC. I totally see the value of it, and I would end up using it when post-editing midi, but for playability my brain is to hardwired to play low velocities, and I keep unavoidably triggering the portamentos when I don't want to.
> 
> other feedback, as much as I love playable instruments like this, it would be great to have specific phenomena be modeled. Perhaps these kinds of things could be intelligently scripted, but also midi controllable for post editing the midi:
> 
> Tongue stopped note release versus breath stopped
> I wonder if it would be possible to modeling three specific things I think brass players do during transitions: (1) valve or slide position, (2) harmonic position of the embrochure, and (3) re-tonguing. The beauty of real legato transitions (and not just legato, actually) happens when players are imperfect about embrochure, so they hit notes across the harmonic series in between, but also even more interesting, it sounds real when the timing of these three effects is not lined up perfectly. So a transition that requires a valve fingering change and a shift in harmonic position could have an arbitrary note very briefly sounding in between. Etc. I think it may be possible to script this, like an alternate to portamentos where note velocities somehow controller the amount of imperfection in the timing of these three factors.
> Anyway, this is a very exciting library and looking forward to future updates. Congrats and thanks for this!



Fantastic feedback. I had the same thoughts but couldn't quite put them in words, because I wasn't exactly sure what brass players are doing (though I suspected they were doing all that you were describing). I feel this library would have the best chance out of all, for replicating this. Should it ever happen, it would send it into the stratosphere.


----------



## DANIELE

I cannot say it enough, I love how these libraries are almost a living being, they keep evolving and growing.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I cannot say it enough, I love how these libraries are almost a living being, they keep evolving and growing.


I had no idea you liked these libraries. You Italians are so subtle.


----------



## pierrevigneron

I retouched my demo a bit, the bassoon sounds more natural in my opinion and the whole is closer to the sound of the original.


----------



## pierrevigneron

What I deduce is that with infinite woodwinds we always have more room for maneuver than the libraries based solely on samples


----------



## pierrevigneron

I tried to get the same results with Audio modeling but it is really not convincing. AM is magnificent for a very direct Pop / Jazz sound but in an orchestral context it's very ugly (in my opinion).


----------



## Oxytoxine

pierrevigneron said:


> I retouched my demo a bit, the bassoon sounds more natural in my opinion and the whole is closer to the sound of the original.



Nice! I only have cheap headphones with me, but sounds good!

Short question, as coincidentally I also played around with the Bassoon last night. Did you also notice a loud hiss noise when playing at high dynamics in the higher registers of the keyboard? I am not at the computer currently but will check to give specifics when back home. It's only on the higher octaves and on very high dynamic values - it's almost like a white noise. Really loud. I did not notice this on the other instruments.

Thanks, and have fun playing!

P.S. I also dug out my other woodwinds again, and really, the thought of going back to traditional keyswitching almost gives me stomach pain after playing with these modern instruments 

EDIT:

In case this is not the right place to discuss such things / probable issues, someone please let me know! I did not want to write an Email to the support with such a small issue before knowing whether someone else has it, as I imagine Aaron is very busy and probably gets flooded with mails so short before this big release  In case this in inappropriate, I will immediately delete this comment.


----------



## I like music

Oxytoxine said:


> Nice! I only have cheap headphones with me, but sounds good!
> 
> Short question, as coincidentally I also played around with the Bassoon last night. Did you also notice a loud hiss noise when playing at high dynamics in the higher registers of the keyboard? I am not at the computer currently but will check to give specifics when back home. It's only on the higher octaves and on very high dynamic values - it's almost like a white noise. Really loud. I did not notice this on the other instruments.
> 
> Thanks, and have fun playing!



I might be wrong but I think Aaron specifically mentioned it. He said the top 25 percent or so here is the overblow layer so you can get a (deliberate) zingy sound of you drive the dynamics that high on the bassoon. I may be wrong though. Check the release video for the winds. Pretty sure he mentions it there.


----------



## Oxytoxine

I like music said:


> I might be wrong but I think Aaron specifically mentioned it. He said the top 25 percent or so here is the overblow layer so you can get a (deliberate) zingy sound of you drive the dynamics that high on the bassoon. I may be wrong though. Check the release video for the winds. Pretty sure he mentions it there.



Ah, good to know, thanks!

Will check. I would then vote for removing it, because it does not seem to be musical for me in any way, but I am not a bassoon player  but it can be easily avoided by not playing in these high dynamics.


----------



## aaronventure

Oxytoxine said:


> very high dynamic values


The idea behind the bassoon (and contrabassoon) is that you're playing in the lower 75% of the range. The top range is for fff shorts and marcato lines. If you write a a lyrical line and write ff, you're gonna get the sound that's up to 75% of the Dynamics slider (I mention this in the walkthrough).

EDIT: It seems you got the answer 30 seconds sooner, hah. If you head over to the MIDI automation tab, you can limit CC1 Dynamics to 75%. Then you're free to play the modwheel in any range, and the bassoon will only go into the overblow layer if you hit the velocity that high, allowing you to accent the "ff sustain" notes or play fff shorts. You can then learn an additional controller to Dynamics (some obscure controller you don't use or whatever works) and use that if the need arises for fff marcato.


----------



## Oxytoxine

aaronventure said:


> The idea behind the bassoon (and contrabassoon is that you're playing in the lower 75% of the range. The top range is for fff shorts and marcato lines. If you write a a lyrical line and write ff, you're gonna get the sound that's up to 75% of the Dynamics slider (I mention this in the walkthrough).
> 
> EDIT: It seems you got the answer 30 seconds sooner, hah.



Thank you for the explanation Aaron! Will remove above comment


----------



## aaronventure

Oxytoxine said:


> Thank you for the explanation Aaron! Will remove above comment


No need, perhaps someone else might find it useful. 

I always welcome any and all emails. Anything you want so say, I'll hear you out.


----------



## Oxytoxine

aaronventure said:


> The idea behind the bassoon (and contrabassoon is that you're playing in the lower 75% of the range. The top range is for fff shorts and marcato lines. If you write a a lyrical line and write ff, you're gonna get the sound that's up to 75% of the Dynamics slider (I mention this in the walkthrough).
> 
> EDIT: It seems you got the answer 30 seconds sooner, hah. If you head over to the MIDI automation tab, you can limit CC1 Dynamics to 75%. Then you're free to play the modwheel in any range, and the bassoon will only go into the overblow layer if you hit the velocity that high, allowing you to accent the "ff sustain" notes or play fff shorts. You can then learn an additional controller to Dynamics (some obscure controller you don't use or whatever works) and use that if the need arises for fff marcato.



You let me wait 30 seconds for an answer - I have to question your support on weekends!  

(to avoid misunderstandings I better clarify - I hope the humor shines through. Your participation and reaction time is unparalleled!


----------



## Oxytoxine

aaronventure said:


> EDIT: It seems you got the answer 30 seconds sooner, hah. If you head over to the MIDI automation tab, you can limit CC1 Dynamics to 75%. Then you're free to play the modwheel in any range, and the bassoon will only go into the overblow layer if you hit the velocity that high, allowing you to accent the "ff sustain" notes or play fff shorts. You can then learn an additional controller to Dynamics (some obscure controller you don't use or whatever works) and use that if the need arises for fff marcato.



Great! May he be thanked


----------



## Montisquirrel

It's my birthday, so a perfect time for a present from Aaron.... c'mon, let's celebrate together.


----------



## I like music

Can we lock this thread? Can't handle the disappointment when another birthday boy or girl bumps it!

Fact: If there are 18 people in a room, there's a 50% chance that 2 of those people will share a birthday. VI Control has MANY more than 18 people. This would mean the thread getting bumped every 15 minutes. And I would blame @Montisquirrel each and every time for starting this trend.


----------



## DANIELE

Montisquirrel said:


> It's my birthday, so a perfect time for a present from Aaron.... c'mon, let's celebrate together.



You have to convince the lawyers, not Aaron anymore.

Anyway...did I say how much I love these kind of libraries etc etc...?


----------



## servandus

Montisquirrel said:


> It's my birthday, so a perfect time for a present from Aaron.... c'mon, let's celebrate together.



I would join the party with a mock-up of the first movement as a gift for you...




... but Warner's lawyers are still unsure if he owes the company any royalties  . We must wait.


----------



## I like music

servandus said:


> I would join the party with a mock-up of the first movement as a gift for you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... but Warner's lawyers are still unsure if he owes the company any royalties  . We must wait.




Completely misread all that and thought you had mocked this up. Nearly fell out of my chair.


----------



## servandus

You can blame it on my "Spanglish". I'm sure it's prone to be misread  

It would indeed be a nice piece to mock up with IB/IW, but I just brought up that serenade because of its bizarre happy birthday quotations, being that song probably one of the best examples of legal nonsense in the history of music. 

Me and my money are just waiting for the legal stuff to be cleared. But what to do? Law and music have always been a bit like Tweety and Sylvester, so we all know the show.


----------



## decredis

Ignorant as I am about legal issues in VI development, in my imagination what's going on is that Aaron is fending off a lawsuit from a mathematician about the nature of infinity. 

[EDIT: many apologies for the frivolous bump]


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> Ignorant as I am about legal issues in VI development, in my imagination what's going on is that Aaron is fending off a lawsuit from a mathematician about the nature of infinity.
> 
> [EDIT: many apologies for the frivolous bump]



Maybe, or maybe it is something inherent NI and their policy. They have to check if it is a true update or a virus, then they has to check if the update worth it or not by composing 10 tracks at least.
Then they has to check if John Williams approves the library. Then if we are all good people by sending someone to ask to everyone of us some questions (how we use the library etc...).

Then maybe it could be ready for release.


----------



## I like music

It follows me everywhere ...


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> It follows me everywhere ...



I was fooled by that ad a few days ago. I thought it meant the update had been released. I'm sure you can imagine my elation, and subsequent disappointment, haha!


----------



## DANIELE

The lawyers are working hard to bring us this update!


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> The lawyers are working hard to bring us this update!



They must work harder!


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> They must work harder!


As a rule, my sympathies lie with a gradualist transition to a stateless lawless society in which we all freely share the fruits of our labour and take what we need and want from the collective product, a society in which people like lawyers would be able to find more rewarding work that satisfies them and is useful to us all; but waiting for this library is sharpening my more revolutionary instincts.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> They must work harder!



Maybe the case has been submitted to the emperor himself, I mean the emperor of the galaxy. So it will require a lot more time...


----------



## Loïc D

DANIELE said:


> Maybe the case has been submitted to the emperor himself, I mean the emperor of the galaxy. So it will require a lot more time...





Spoiler



Plus he kinda died recently I'm afraid


----------



## davidson

I've spent this evening looking into the infinite libraries and I've got to say @aaronventure, whoever's writing the code for these is insane, they look amazing! 

So what's the general consensus in their current state? Suitable for this / not suitable for that, that kind of thing? Also, I know it's probably been discussed 100 times already, but are there strings coming?


----------



## DANIELE

davidson said:


> I've spent this evening looking into the infinite libraries and I've got to say @aaronventure, whoever's writing the code for these is insane, they look amazing!
> 
> So what's the general consensus in their current state? Suitable for this / not suitable for that, that kind of thing? Also, I know it's probably been discussed 100 times already, but are there strings coming?



The strings are coming but we don't know when exactly. Aaron will bring them to us once the library is ready.

About the IB update is the same thing, as I previously mentioned once the legal issue is solved he will launch the update.

We all hope it will be soon.

If I understand correctly the other question I think this libraries are suitable for almost everything you want to do because the performance depends on you and not on how the samples are recorded.

I'm pretty excited for 2020 in general, I think (and I hope) I will have many good libraries of this kind at the end of this year.


----------



## davidson

@DANIELE Thanks! What's the legal issue?

So all instruments handle all dynamic levels well? No weak spots apart from the flutes (which seem to have been fixed)?

I'm sick to death of keyswitches so I'm ready to make the leap. I stayed away from musical sampling due to the logic issues they seem to have, as well as the lack of woods, so this has me excited


----------



## aaronventure

davidson said:


> whoever's writing the code for these is insane, they look amazing!


Thanks!



davidson said:


> What's the legal issue


I won't confirm or deny anything, but it'll be obvious once the update is out and you see the videos/webpage.



davidson said:


> So all instruments handle all dynamic levels well? No weak spots apart from the flutes?


This will be the most obvious improvement apart from the sound with the new brass update. 

As for the Woodwinds, the flutes will be undergoing a full rework, and I'll have a look at English horn's mp and below. The feedback so far is that it's not quite nasal and I agree. Might have to re-record it. I'll also be taking a look at saxes, upper range of the bassoons and making glissandi in clarinets is easier to use. 

Woodwinds are what they are right now, I try to be transparent in the demos (no processing beyond a touch of tape and soft compression on solos). I'm already working on the next IW update along with strings while waiting for the go-ahead for the Brass update.


----------



## DANIELE

davidson said:


> @DANIELE Thanks! What's the legal issue?
> 
> So all instruments handle all dynamic levels well? No weak spots apart from the flutes (which seem to have been fixed)?
> 
> I'm sick to death of keyswitches so I'm ready to make the leap. I stayed away from musical sampling due to the logic issues they seem to have, as well as the lack of woods, so this has me excited



Aaron already answered you pretty well. I could also add some advice, and this is DO THE LEAP!! DO IT!! 😱

You won't regret it! I'm serious! This libraries are a lot of fun, A LOT!


----------



## I like music

davidson said:


> @DANIELE Thanks! What's the legal issue?
> 
> So all instruments handle all dynamic levels well? No weak spots apart from the flutes (which seem to have been fixed)?
> 
> I'm sick to death of keyswitches so I'm ready to make the leap. I stayed away from musical sampling due to the logic issues they seem to have, as well as the lack of woods, so this has me excited



Seriously good libraries!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

hmmm I suspect this is a hint at some sort of collaboration or merger?

interesting.


----------



## I like music

ProfoundSilence said:


> hmmm I suspect this is a hint at some sort of collaboration or merger?
> 
> interesting.



Or (negative me) some dev claiming copyright over the design/branding of the site. I always have a pessimistic view of the world. 

Personally hoping for a Miley Cyrus collab, but I'll accept "Infinite John Williams"


----------



## Kent

Or a custom "namebrand studio" IR set


----------



## servandus

> "The room is generated in real-time through convolution using bespoke impulse responses unique to each position and room, so the ambience is always 100% reflecting the performance."



Room is always as important as the instrument for a beautiful sound (and in the VI world this might be even more relevant when it comes to instruments that rely on some sort of synthesis or sample modelling wizardry). Maybe something related to those bespoke IRs is involved in this legal issue.


----------



## servandus

kmaster said:


> Or a custom "namebrand studio" IR set



You pulled the trigger quicker  Same bullets, though.


----------



## Oxytoxine

This would be fantastic - so much easier to mix and match! Just choose the "Vienna" or "Teldex" or "Air" or whatever preset and there you go 

I wonder why no one has this implemented yet. 

Can IRs (or an approximation using an algorithmic reverb etc.) really be patented?


----------



## servandus

I'm not completely sure about this, but I think you can patent the tools or techniques to capture those IRs, not the IR data itself (which of course doesn't mean you can't license it if you own the copyright; they're just different forms of intellectual property).

In any case, apart from our speculations, Aaron has said nothing about a new set of IRs being part of the update, but did say that the trumpet has been heavily reworked, so there might be more than some licensing involved in the legal stuff.

I only hope those lawyers are not trying to make this into an "infinite wait", and we know what's all about very soon. I think half the plays of that trumpet demo on soundcloud are mine


----------



## d.healey

servandus said:


> I'm not completely sure about this, but I think you can patent the tools or techniques to capture those IRs, not the IR data itself (which of course doesn't mean you can't license it if you own the copyright; they're just different forms of intellectual property).


True. An audio file is copyrightable not patentable (thank goodness!).


----------



## Oxytoxine

Interesting!

I worked in biomedical science, and there were crazy things going on regarding patenting. They attempted to patent even whole genes, so it would not surprise me If lawyers would also manage to turn this into a really complicated and silly affair 

But back to the important things in life - like the Infinite update


----------



## El Buhdai

servandus said:


> I think half the plays of that trumpet demo on soundcloud are mine



How could half of them be your plays if 90% of them came from me?


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> How could half of them be your plays if 90% of them came from me?



I think played 80% of them.

It makes sense though. Infinite percentages.


----------



## DANIELE

The lawyers have deliberated: Aaron will be forced to give us the update splitted in 1 Kb fragments once a week. Only by doing this they will be sure that we will not abuse of this library.


----------



## pierrevigneron

A little demo made with infinite woodinds (exept the french horn from wivi band). I have use some eq cause i always find too much 1500/2000 Hz. Scoring stage preset with soloist for each (a panning after). Switched off ambiance mic to place my favorite reverb with delay to not match with main mic from IW


----------



## pierrevigneron

Another version that I find more musical (IMO). By dint of testing I end up better understanding what works with infinite woodwinds to reproduce the sound I like


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Another version that I find more musical (IMO). By dint of testing I end up better understanding what works with infinite woodwinds to reproduce the sound I like



Very nice! It sounds very musical to me. See, when you can get the phrasing like this, the sound issues become very small for me. And to think that Aaron is thinking of improvements in that department, is very heartening.

Can you please tell us a bit more about what you did to get the sound you liked?


----------



## pierrevigneron

Of course with pleasure.

For microphones I mainly use the close mic and a bit of main mic in "soloist" mode. I switched off the surround mic to replace it with my reverb (The RC from Native Instrument). The set is placed in a reverb to "pan" (but before the RC)

For programming, I use a dynamic of zero or almost for staccato passages and the vibrato for legato passages (essential for a good performance)

Sound level, I understood that what is missing in my opinion on these woods is very organic bass. So I use a band simulator (VTM from Slate Digital) with a good boost in the bass and a good level of "wow and flutter". I admit going there a bit like a barabre since I place 2! But in the end I think it sounds good (and that's what counts) and, they don't sound so "boomy" than that, just more organic in my opinion than the basic sound. With this method I almost no longer need to attenuate the 2KHz that I found aggressive.


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Of course with pleasure.
> 
> For microphones I mainly use the close mic and a bit of main mic in "soloist" mode. I switched off the surround mic to replace it with my reverb (The RC from Native Instrument). The set is placed in a reverb to "pan" (but before the RC)
> 
> For programming, I use a dynamic of zero or almost for staccato passages and the vibrato for legato passages (essential for a good performance)
> 
> Sound level, I understood that what is missing in my opinion on these woods is very organic bass. So I use a band simulator (VTM from Slate Digital) with a good boost in the bass and a good level of "wow and flutter". I admit going there a bit like a barabre since I place 2! But in the end I think it sounds good (and that's what counts) and, they don't sound so "boomy" than that, just more organic in my opinion than the basic sound. With this method I almost no longer need to attenuate the 2KHz that I found aggressive.



Thanks for this. Very interesting. I'll try this and see how it sounds for me. I don't have a band simulator (don't even know what that is!) but hopefully can find a free plugin that someone has created.

Do you own the brass?


----------



## pierrevigneron

I think you will probably get similar results by boosting frequencies below 300Hz with a little compression (can be with the super TDR VOS SlickEQ by activating the saturation)

No unfortunately I do not have the Brass but I really hesitate to take them because I find that they sound very good in a symphonic context (in addition to the flexibility and simplicity of use) ... I wait so version 1.4 and the new walktrough video ... like all of us here actually ^^


----------



## pierrevigneron

The problem is : 2 VTM introduces 120 ms delay !!!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I will have to find the same results but with no latency plugin


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> The problem is : 2 VTM introduces 120 ms delay !!!


Wow


----------



## shawnsingh

Perhaps everyone already knows this trick, it's hinted in the walkthrough video, but a pro tip for getting a great ensemble sound from the multiple instruments provided - detune the instruments relative to each other using pitch bend.

For horns this made a big difference in how huge and strong all the horns sound together (sorry, don't have access to my home studio for a week, I can upload a demo after that if people want). I think it could make a great difference for trumpets and trombones too, but haven't fully tested it out.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Perhaps everyone already knows this trick, it's hinted in the walkthrough video, but a pro tip for getting a great ensemble sound from the multiple instruments provided - detune the instruments relative to each other using pitch bend.
> 
> For horns this made a big difference in how huge and strong all the horns sound together (sorry, don't have access to my home studio for a week, I can upload a demo after that if people want). I think it could make a great difference for trumpets and trombones too, but haven't fully tested it out.



Yes! The detuning works wonderfully (only tried it with the brass) and the ensemble sounded suddenly much bigger. I saw a huge difference in trumpets, doing this.


----------



## DANIELE

shawnsingh said:


> Perhaps everyone already knows this trick, it's hinted in the walkthrough video, but a pro tip for getting a great ensemble sound from the multiple instruments provided - detune the instruments relative to each other using pitch bend.
> 
> For horns this made a big difference in how huge and strong all the horns sound together (sorry, don't have access to my home studio for a week, I can upload a demo after that if people want). I think it could make a great difference for trumpets and trombones too, but haven't fully tested it out.



I did it too and I heard great improvements. This feature should be included in the next update, so you don't have to manually detune them anymore.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Here's something some of you might find useful.



I made a divisi/part writing setup that's decently fast - while I originally used bww as an example, to show how it works using a different style library - I simply duplicated the example and swapped the instruments out for the clarinets. I left the midi mostly the same, dropping cc1 for the first part, and mostly just tweaking the velocities up so I don't get random long portamentos - and just hit most of it with a timing/velocity humanize.





__





Easy and flexible divisi/part writing for Kontakt(BWW/Berlin Brass/Samplemodeling/Infinite/Chris Hein/ect)


*disclaimer* before someone rages at the word divisi, yes we all know divisi is a strings term. the tutorial only takes a few minutes, the last 14+ minutes is just me crafting a few examples and trying to move slow enough so that what I'm doing is captured. Ofcourse it's all improvised so I...




vi-control.net





considering all of the infinite stuff uses the same midi, this could speed up your workflow.


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> Perhaps everyone already knows this trick, it's hinted in the walkthrough video, but a pro tip for getting a great ensemble sound from the multiple instruments provided - detune the instruments relative to each other using pitch bend.
> 
> For horns this made a big difference in how huge and strong all the horns sound together (sorry, don't have access to my home studio for a week, I can upload a demo after that if people want). I think it could make a great difference for trumpets and trombones too, but haven't fully tested it out.



I can definitely vouch for this. My horn section sounded much better after detuning each instrument. I also enable the chorus effect on all horns except Horn 1, which I use for solos. Aaron recommended me a detune of 3 - 5 cents up or down per instrument. It gave decent results, but for an adventure sound, I tend to work somewhere in the ballpark of 15 - 30 cents per instrument (it might be smaller, but I'm not at my workstation at the moment). Makes a huge difference without sounding out of tune.


----------



## pierrevigneron

it seems to be a good solution for the ensembles but with regard to the very own sound of infinite woodwinds I find that it lacks low frequencies. I love the stamp of the woods vsl (here, synchron file). with the vtm plugin (bass boost) applied on IW, i can get closer to this sound (Imo).


----------



## pierrevigneron

I maybe have found a solution to avoid latency : with the multiband tape saturation inside cubase "quadrafuzz"

... But if seems so more life with vtm 😔...but latency


----------



## I like music

LOL just mocked up 7 minutes of Jerry Goldsmith's Mulan Suite. There are a few solo French Horn parts and also oboe parts. The oboe fucking _shines _(in my opinion). Will post the whole thing at some point today hopefully so you can hear some of it.


----------



## I like music

Actually, on second thought, will wait until v1.4 releases. A good piece to test it on.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Post it !


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Post it !



Just listened to the mockup again and there are quite a few mistakes etc (7 minutes long, there's even quite a few wrong notes there!) so want to quickly fix them before posting :D

I was also very very impressed with SM Strings in the piece too. In a couple of places they are beautiful. In some other areas, a standard library may do better (I will explain more when I post it)

You know how it is. You are happy with a mockup. Then you play it the next day and think "how could I have been happy with this trash!?"


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Just listened to the mockup again and there are quite a few mistakes etc (7 minutes long, there's even quite a few wrong notes there!) so want to quickly fix them before posting :D
> 
> I was also very very impressed with SM Strings in the piece too. In a couple of places they are beautiful. In some other areas, a standard library may do better (I will explain more when I post it)
> 
> You know how it is. You are happy with a mockup. Then you play it the next day and think "how could I have been happy with this trash!?"



Yeah, it is normal. Wait some other days and then it will sound acceptable to you.


----------



## pierrevigneron

No information on the new update of IB ? 
Even an estimate of its upload...


----------



## I like music

Here ya go. _Loads_ more work to do on this by the way, so consider it a Work in Progress:


----------



## pierrevigneron

Thank you very much ! I will listen later with a good listening system. Can you tell me which instruments come from sample modeling? Is that the strings? And so everyone else is from Aaron venture?


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Thank you very much ! I will listen later with a good listening system. Can you tell me which instruments come from sample modeling? Is that the strings? And so everyone else is from Aaron venture?



Yep. All strings are SM only. Brass and winds are Infinite only.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Thanks you ! So 100% of not-only sampled based VI ^^. I will listen to this afternoon


----------



## pierrevigneron

Bravo it sounds great!

I find the sound a little too distant. There is a crack at 2min07. Also the release of the strings is a bit abrupt (imo). I would also give a boost in very low frequencies (<100hz) for a little more roundness. The SM strings sound good as a whole, they seem very agile and dynamic, beautiful tone. For my part I will wait for the strings of the Infinite series (if I do not crack by then). The French horns sound superb.

Really well done, great work, great music!


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Bravo it sounds great!
> 
> I find the sound a little too distant. There is a crack at 2min07. Also the release of the strings is a bit abrupt (imo). I would also give a boost in very low frequencies (<100hz) for a little more roundness. The SM strings sound good as a whole, they seem very agile and dynamic, beautiful tone. For my part I will wait for the strings of the Infinite series (if I do not crack by then). The French horns sound superb.
> 
> Really well done, great work, great music!



Very helpful feedback. I will add your changes to my next round of modifications, thank you!

Yes, need to look at those releases. I hear the abruptness now.

Will remove some of that reverb and also bring the orchestra closer!

I'm also going to swap out Infinite and Sample Modeling for CSS and CSB, in a separate thread, for those who might care to compare.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I'm also going to swap out Infinite and Sample Modeling for CSS and CSB, in a separate thread, for those who might care to compare.



I tend not to use the trumpets or trombones in Infinite Brass. The tone issues for the trumpets are way too noticeable and the trombone is a slightly pitchy instrument unless played by a literal master, so I find the IB trombones a little too clean as a section. They also lack the kind of bite I want from a trombone section when things get loud. With that said, I haven't tried the pitching method I do with the horns on the trombones yet. Maybe that would change my mind, but for now they go unused. Not to mention, who knows when 1.4 is gonna be released at this point? Could be months.

However, the French Horns are my favorite sampled horns period, and the Tuba has a nice sense of depth with great dynamics and much better control than I've heard from some of the more raw libraries out there.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I tend not to use the trumpets or trombones in Infinite Brass. The tone issues for the trumpets are way too noticeable and the trombone is a slightly pitchy instrument unless played by a literal master, so I find the IB trombones a little too clean as a section. They also lack the kind of bite I want from a trombone section when things get loud. With that said, I haven't tried the pitching method I do with the horns on the trombones yet. Maybe that would change my mind, but for now they go unused. Not to mention, who knows when 1.4 is gonna be released at this point? Could be months.
> 
> However, the French Horns are my favorite sampled horns period, and the Tuba has a nice sense of depth with great dynamics and much better control than I've heard from some of the more raw libraries out there.



Agree with all of that. I'd only differ on the trumpets and bones at a lower dynamic. I feel that at lower dynamics they have more body and tone. But when you push them right up to the top, the bones' tone goes slightly wonky. I haven't tried the pitching trick on those either. Perhaps that'll do it?

Horns and tuba, yep. I love them.


----------



## pierrevigneron

I will appreciate you do the same with CSB and CSS to allow us to compare

I like music : what microphone from Infinite did you use ? Medium hall ?


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Could be months.



I think we will have to wait a lot, maybe not months but the update is far far away actually, I hope I'm wrong. I hope this issue will open the doors for IW updates and future libraries (like strings) that I think will contain something similar from v 1.0.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Sorry either I did not understand or, as a Frenchman, I translated badly but I did not understand why the update 1.4 of infinite brass takes time. or is it normal: I thought I understood that it was a legal problem, which explains Aaron's reservation to speak on the subject ...


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I think we will have to wait a lot, maybe not months but the update is far far away actually, I hope I'm wrong. I hope this issue will open the doors for IW updates and future libraries (like strings) that I think will contain something similar from v 1.0.



While I'd like to be optimistic, I'd heard directly from him as well as through the forums many times that the update was coming "this month", with "this" month going all the way back to around September. Then October, then November for Black Friday, etc.

Don't get me wrong, there are no hard feelings and I don't hold this against him. My college major requires a lot of programming, so I understand the feeling of thinking you should almost be done, only to discover that you're not. I also understand that once you throw the law into the mix, things can get even slower. 

So, due to how things have gone thus far, I've come to a state of acceptance that it'll probably weeks, or even a few more months before we can get our hands on the 1.4 update.


----------



## DANIELE

pierrevigneron said:


> Sorry either I did not understand or, as a Frenchman, I translated badly but I did not understand why the update 1.4 of infinite brass takes time. or is it normal: I thought I understood that it was a legal problem, which explains Aaron's reservation to speak on the subject ...



Aaron said that the update is ready to launch at any time, there is only this legal issue that is blocking it from to be released. We don't know anything about this issue (as it should be) so we can only wait hoping that this issue will be solved soon. In my country usaully legal issues go on for months but we don't know the nature of the issue so...we can only wait.

I can't wait for Aaron to show us this update and the new librairies/updates he is working on and I wish him my best.


----------



## Eptesicus

pierrevigneron said:


> Sorry either I did not understand or, as a Frenchman, I translated badly but I did not understand why the update 1.4 of infinite brass takes time. or is it normal: I thought I understood that it was a legal problem, which explains Aaron's reservation to speak on the subject ...



Something legal and something quite significant as he has said it will be noticed straight away on the website.

Change of name?
Kontakt Player compatible?
Merger with another developer?

Who knows.


----------



## decredis

If I remember rightly, the coming of IB1.4 will bring with it a two week sale period; and I think I remember Aaron saying this would apply to the bundle as well as IB alone. I've been holding off getting into the Infinite Series in anticipation of the sale period.

I have a question, @aaronventure: will the sale discount apply to crossgrades to the bundle as well as to the bundle itself? In other words if I bought Winds now, then crossgraded to the Winds/Brass bundle during the sale period, would I pay the same over all as if I waited to buy the Winds/Brass bundle outright during the sale period?

I'm getting itchy fingers, can you tell?


----------



## aaronventure

decredis said:


> will the sale discount apply to crossgrades to the bundle as well as to the bundle itself? In other words if I bought Winds now, then crossgraded to the Winds/Brass bundle during the sale period, would I pay the same over all as if I waited to buy the Winds/Brass bundle outright during the sale period?


When in doubt, just remember that I'll never try and screw you over and use that as a guessing guide . I'll never punish customers by not buying the whole thing.

The current bundle is effectively IB + IW - $100.

Whichever one you have, you crossgrade by paying whatever the other one currently costs minus $100.


----------



## decredis

aaronventure said:


> When in doubt, just remember that I'll never try and screw you over and use that as a guessing guide . I'll never punish customers by not buying the whole thing.
> 
> The current bundle is effectively IB + IW - $100.
> 
> Whichever one you have, you crossgrade by paying whatever the other one currently costs minus $100.


Awesome, thank you!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I have had infinite woodwinds for almost three weeks now and I really think they are good.

I did a lot of tests to compare them to VSL and also to Swam woods. They have the same flexibility and the same flexibility of use as Swam. I prefer the VSL stamp but by controlling the acute medium we can get closer to this stamp (moreover, it's just a question of taste and not of "quality"). In a Jazz / Pop context I will go to SWAM but for an orchestral context I find that infinite woodwinds sounds better and much more natural! There are some flaws but I am confident in a future update.

What I would like to have in the future for the infinite woodwinds (Aaron if you hear me ^^ ...): a setting of the "glide" (I find that sometimes the legato get along really too much, it slips). A mode which would delay the vibrato (whatever its depth) by 0.5 sec, 1 second or 2, as a real wind instrumentalist would, so as to obtain a natural play without having to act on the vibrato. I also hear bizzar attacks on the bassoon (and it's not the sound of the keys) like clicks when a wave starts on a value immediately positive (cf. my attached file)

But really I do not regret my choice at all, you have to learn to master them and then they do you loyal service ^^

Could someone make a comparison between the samples modeling brass and the infinite brass?


----------



## decredis

Well I've taken the plunge at last and bought IW. I suppose if the winds go on sale during the forthcoming sale period, I'll have lost out on that discount, but I'll still be able to get the brass bundle discount. I just couldn't hold on any longer after so many months of drooling. I look forward to getting to know the instruments.


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> I look forward to getting to know the instruments.



And we look forward to hearing your thoughts! These libraries aren't for everyone, but the people who love them _reaaally_ love them.


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> And we look forward to hearing your thoughts! These libraries aren't for everyone, but the people who love them _reaaally_ love them.


I'll try to put together some considered thoughts at some point, though I doubt they'll be as useful as those from people with wider experience of VIs and composition. Very briefly though: I had a slightly dodgy few minutes trying to control dynamics with an expression pedal before getting out my breath controller, which made all the difference. 

The english horn has such a sweet and lovely tone... the flutes, which I know people say aren't the best in tone, are actually pretty good to my rather naive ears... the timbre feels more like what I expect from a flute than SWAM's (which I have loved for its expressiveness but found its tone lacked a sweetness and clarity I associate with more 'classical' uses).


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> I'll try to put together some considered thoughts at some point, though I doubt they'll be as useful as those from people with wider experience of VIs and composition. Very briefly though: I had a slightly dodgy few minutes trying to control dynamics with an expression pedal before getting out my breath controller, which made all the difference.
> 
> The english horn has such a sweet and lovely tone... the flutes, which I know people say aren't the best in tone, are actually pretty good to my rather naive ears... the timbre feels more like what I expect from a flute than SWAM's (which I have loved for its expressiveness but found its tone lacked a sweetness and clarity I associate with more 'classical' uses).



I liked the timbre more and more as I got used to them over the months. I think I finally (today) got them placed in a way that I like, and the tone is excellent to my ears. Just a few attack issues sometimes but otherwise fantastic. Look forward to what you use them on!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music, do you refered to same kind of attack problem i mentioned ?


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> I like music, do you refered to same kind of attack problem i mentioned ?



I did not have the opportunity to hear your example, but I will have my headphones later and then will check it out! Did you find the problem only on the bassoons?


----------



## pierrevigneron

Yes, only bassoons.


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> Yes, only bassoons.



Ah yes, the jumpy Bassoon attacks. They're even more noticeable as you increase the room size. I usually have the velocity on my legato transitions super low so those weird attacks will go away. I haven't listened to enough bassoon-only music to know whether or not that's realistic (which is why I haven't submitted this as a problem to Aaron), but it's not something I enjoy the sound of personally so I always minimize it.



I like music said:


> I liked the timbre more and more as I got used to them over the months. I think I finally (today) got them placed in a way that I like, and the tone is excellent to my ears. Just a few attack issues sometimes but otherwise fantastic. Look forward to what you use them on!



Interesting. It's been the opposite for me. The more I try to use them, the less I want to. A group of master flutists from Brazil and Argentina came to play for my Music Appreciation class just last Thursday and all I could think was how neither of my woodwinds libraries are capable of playing the stuff they played convincingly. Hollywood Woodwinds' flutes are stiff and don't have the agility required, and the tone on the IW flutes is so far away from an actual flute. It's got all of the body, but very little of that twinkle on top, not to mention the breath sound has an odd frequency response, almost like it's missing a crisp high-end there as well. Take that with a grain of salt though.

Side note, I also noticed that flute players (and most woodwind players in general) don't perform legato in such an exaggerated manner as most woodwinds libraries would suggest. Most flute patches I've heard tend to have these slow, dramatic, almost portamento-like transitions on their legato patches for flute. When those real flutists played, however, it was more of a snap between the two connected notes. Just something I noticed.

The instruments in Infinite Woodwinds also mostly use a more snap-like legato transition except at the absolute lowest velocities, which I like.

Where I must commend the IW flutes is in their agility though. Almost all Infinite Series instruments are capable of playing fairly complex or bouncy passages convincingly. That remains true for the flutes when you put aside the tone.

EDIT: And I just opened up the flutes to play with them for a bit and after some tweaking they sound better than I remember. So I guess I like them a bit more now?


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Ah yes, the jumpy Bassoon attacks. They're even more noticeable as you increase the room size. I usually have the velocity on my legato transitions super low so those weird attacks will go away. I haven't listened to enough bassoon-only music to know whether or not that's realistic (which is why I haven't submitted this as a problem to Aaron), but it's not something I enjoy the sound of personally so I always minimize it.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. It's been the opposite for me. The more I try to use them, the less I want to. A group of master flutists from Brazil and Argentina came to play for my Music Appreciation class just last Thursday and all I could think was how neither of my woodwinds libraries are capable of playing the stuff they played convincingly. Hollywood Woodwinds' flutes are stiff and don't have the agility required, and the tone on the IW flutes is so far away from an actual flute. It's got all of the body, but very little of that twinkle on top, not to mention the breath sound has an odd frequency response, almost like it's missing a crisp high-end there as well. Take that with a grain of salt though.
> 
> Side note, I also noticed that flute players (and most woodwind players in general) don't perform legato in such an exaggerated manner as most woodwinds libraries would suggest. Most flute patches I've heard tend to have these slow, dramatic, almost portamento-like transitions on their legato patches for flute. When those real flutists played, however, it was more of a snap between the two connected notes. Just something I noticed.
> 
> The instruments in Infinite Woodwinds also mostly use a more snap-like legato transition except at the absolute lowest velocities, which I like.
> 
> Where I must commend the IW flutes is in their agility though. Almost all Infinite Series instruments are capable of playing fairly complex or bouncy passages convincingly. That remains true for the flutes when you put aside the tone.
> 
> EDIT: And I just opened up the flutes to play with them for a bit and after some tweaking they sound better than I remember. So I guess I like them a bit more now?



Interesting! One thing I've found is that instead of connecting notes (unless I absolutely have to) with the Infinite Stuff, you can do fairly convincing 'legato' passages as 'detached' notes. In fact, with all the Infinite stuff, I believe that a secret strength of them is that you can disconnect notes and get a smooth transition, if that makes sense? Have you tried this or found the same?

Aaron explained that the note ends have a couple of convolutions on them which makes the release convincing. And as far as the release goes, these are definitely the best libraries in the market in my opinion. And therefore you can do really convincing detached passages but if you lower the velocity of the following note, it an often sound like a really great 'legato' passage without a transition sound!

Also, the fault is with you for getting in a room with a live musician! The best way to feel terrible about your libraries :D


----------



## pierrevigneron

I totale agree with you guys about legato : do not Always play legato with IW (especialy with large intervals). I will love a limitation legato-knob on the interface.

In my attached file you can ear an instrumental background song on witch i am working (from a 2 hours comedy i am completly composing). All oboe, flute, clarinet and bassoon are from IW. do not judge me severely on my mix I am aware of a lot of problems yet, especially on my gain levels. this is just to illustrate what I said before: in an orchestral ensemble I find that IW sound very naturals


----------



## Eptesicus

pierrevigneron said:


> I have had infinite woodwinds for almost three weeks now and I really think they are good.
> 
> I did a lot of tests to compare them to VSL and also to Swam woods. They have the same flexibility and the same flexibility of use as Swam. I prefer the VSL stamp but by controlling the acute medium we can get closer to this stamp (moreover, it's just a question of taste and not of "quality"). In a Jazz / Pop context I will go to SWAM but for an orchestral context I find that infinite woodwinds sounds better and much more natural! There are some flaws but I am confident in a future update.
> 
> What I would like to have in the future for the infinite woodwinds (Aaron if you hear me ^^ ...): a setting of the "glide" (I find that sometimes the legato get along really too much, it slips). A mode which would delay the vibrato (whatever its depth) by 0.5 sec, 1 second or 2, as a real wind instrumentalist would, so as to obtain a natural play without having to act on the vibrato. I also hear bizzar attacks on the bassoon (and it's not the sound of the keys) like clicks when a wave starts on a value immediately positive (cf. my attached file)
> 
> But really I do not regret my choice at all, you have to learn to master them and then they do you loyal service ^^
> 
> Could someone make a comparison between the samples modeling brass and the infinite brass?



This attack is something i have noticed to on some of the instruments. It is what is slightly putting me off the horns as well as it is apparent there as well (not as pronounced at the bassoons).


----------



## pierrevigneron

I found a technique which in my opinion is a real revelation to make the infinite woodwinds sound according to the sound that suits me but rather than explain to you I wanted to offer you a test: could you tell me which presets you prefer between A and B?


----------



## Eptesicus

I think i prefer A


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> I think i prefer A



I initially preferred B. Then I listened a few more times and I'm not sure. @Eptesicus this reminds me. I went over my Mulan mockup, taking your feedback into account. If I posted it again, would you mind letting me know if you feel that it improved along the lines you mentioned?


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> I found a technique which in my opinion is a real revelation to make the infinite woodwinds sound according to the sound that suits me but rather than explain to you I wanted to offer you a test: could you tell me which presets you prefer between A and B?



I preferred B to start with, but I actually quite like A now ... this answer does not help you does it?


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> I totale agree with you guys about legato : do not Always play legato with IW (especialy with large intervals). I will love a limitation legato-knob on the interface.
> 
> In my attached file you can ear an instrumental background song on witch i am working (from a 2 hours comedy i am completly composing). All oboe, flute, clarinet and bassoon are from IW. do not judge me severely on my mix I am aware of a lot of problems yet, especially on my gain levels. this is just to illustrate what I said before: in an orchestral ensemble I find that IW sound very naturals



This is awesome by the way!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I prefer not to say anything so as not to influence anyone and I expect that there are more opinions


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> This is awesome by the way!


Thank you ^^


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Thank you ^^



It is now stuck in my head. And therefore I will hate it in a few hours...


----------



## Eptesicus

I like music said:


> I initially preferred B. Then I listened a few more times and I'm not sure. @Eptesicus this reminds me. I went over my Mulan mockup, taking your feedback into account. If I posted it again, would you mind letting me know if you feel that it improved along the lines you mentioned?



Sure


----------



## pierrevigneron

Eptesicus said:


> Sure


Completly sure 👍😉


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> It is now stuck in my head. And therefore I will hate it in a few hours...


Ahaha 😂
for my musical I take it as a compliment 😀


----------



## jonathanparham

I prefer A for both instruments


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> I preferred B to start with, but I actually quite like A now ... this answer does not help you does it?


If you have to choose one now ?


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> If you have to choose one now ?


Overall, A is clearer but B definitely has a nice ambience. It's B for me


----------



## DANIELE

I prefer B.


----------



## pierrevigneron

So it is 2/2...


----------



## AEF

pierrevigneron said:


> I found a technique which in my opinion is a real revelation to make the infinite woodwinds sound according to the sound that suits me but rather than explain to you I wanted to offer you a test: could you tell me which presets you prefer between A and B?



A is louder. Usually wins when that is the case.


----------



## I like music

AEF said:


> A is louder. Usually wins when that is the case.



Woah. I had never thought about this. Crazy if the case. I can see how it makes sense...


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@pierrevigneron it's hard to say since it seems like Oboe A and Clarinet B have gotten the same treatment. I like Oboe A the best and I'm not sure about the Clarinet.

Oboe A and Clarinet B are thinner and have less body, which makes them more suited for orchestral work. They are also much more pleasing in the spatial department. Although, almost too wide.

Oboe B and Clarinet A are a bit thicker but not nearly as good spatially since they sound much more mono, and that's probably one reason they also sound thicker.

It's not the easiest to explain but with Oboe A and Clarinet B it sounds like they are placed in a room and that the reverb is enveloping the instruments; while B sounds like a mono source with added reverb behind it. This could be because the stereo field of the instrument have been collapsed together with the reverb making them sound unnatural, but I'm not sure. You usually don't get that sound anyway but that might depend on the plugin used.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Your comments are very interesting. I don't think we can really speak of a difference in level. A and B have not received the same treatment. I expect a little more voting and I explain to you


----------



## ProfoundSilence

pierrevigneron said:


> I found a technique which in my opinion is a real revelation to make the infinite woodwinds sound according to the sound that suits me but rather than explain to you I wanted to offer you a test: could you tell me which presets you prefer between A and B?


A


----------



## pierrevigneron

3/2 for A ! Two others votes and i explain


----------



## Loïc D

Pierre, 
I vote for B by a slight margin.
Both are nice, so is your music piece (and the mix sounds already ok)


----------



## decredis

pierrevigneron said:


> 3/2 for A ! Two others votes and i explain


I preferred B in both. Seemed more situated, I guess.


----------



## pierrevigneron

3/5 for B


----------



## AEF

pierrevigneron said:


> Your comments are very interesting. I don't think we can really speak of a difference in level. A and B have not received the same treatment. I expect a little more voting and I explain to you



You should LUFS match. I only listened to the oboe example. Even a .5 db louder example will sound “better” to us.


----------



## pierrevigneron

This is LUFS measurements


----------



## Tfis

Clarinet B / Oboe A
Both seem to be wider.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tfis said:


> Clarinet B / Oboe A
> Both seem to be wider.



They are.

It's going to be interesting to see what he's done to the samples since Oboe A and Clarinet B uses different processing and I find they have more in common than either Ob A and Cl A, or Ob B and Cl B.


----------



## pierrevigneron

well come on i explain 😉 i probably asked my question wrong it has nothing to do with what i wanted to express. in fact I was not completely satisfied with the configuration which allowed to have the woods with the driest sound (studio and soloist position). on the two versions A I reduced the stereo enormously but only above 3khz. personally I really like this sound, very robust and that seems close and above all it attenuates high mids that I find a little aggressive. I assure you when I bypass clearly hear sharp resonances coming back. I admit I thought I would federate more people but basically it's better time we don't all have the same tastes. and then also my question could be zero because decontextualized.


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> well come on i explain 😉 i probably asked my question wrong it has nothing to do with what i wanted to express. in fact I was not completely satisfied with the configuration which allowed to have the woods with the driest sound (studio and soloist position). on the two versions A I reduced the stereo enormously but only above 3khz. personally I really like this sound, very robust and that seems close and above all it attenuates high mids that I find a little aggressive. I assure you when I bypass clearly hear sharp resonances coming back. I admit I thought I would federate more people but basically it's better time we don't all have the same tastes. and then also my question could be zero because decontextualized.



Do you mean you did a simple cut above 3khz? Or was something else involved too?


----------



## I like music

@pierrevigneron @Eptesicus @DANIELE - I reduced the reverb and created two versions of the Mulan mockup. In these two examples, the only differences are that one is wetter and one drier (the drier one is a bit louder, and also the strings are closer)

If you could please let me know whether this sound any better and which one you think is preferable, I'd be hugely appreciative!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> Do you mean you did a simple cut above 3khz? Or was something else involved too?


No ! I reduced the stereo but just for 3khz-20khz


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music : ok i will listen to


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> @pierrevigneron @Eptesicus @DANIELE - I reduced the reverb and created two versions of the Mulan mockup. In these two examples, the only differences are that one is wetter and one drier (the drier one is a bit louder, and also the strings are closer)
> 
> If you could please let me know whether this sound any better and which one you think is preferable, I'd be hugely appreciative!




I think the wetter one it is slightly better even if I would reduce a bit the reverb, not so much as in the drier version. They are both very good but the second one sounds more realistic to me even if we are talking of very little differences. The first one sounds like a huge orchestra packed in a small room, a bit weird. But this is what I feel right now after an entire day of work with my brain full of pain. Maybe tomorrow I could think the opposite.


----------



## pierrevigneron

I find that the version with more reverb sounds more coherent but that said, in your place I would surely start from the drier version, I plan the treble (above 5khz) to move the strings a little away which I still find a little too close (even if oddly to I no longer have this feeling from 2min15 and the whole seems more coherent), I would place the woods in a larger room, and finally I would put a reverb tail on the whole ( at around 5/10%), to the master before the master bus compressor. towards the middle of the room, the solo cello: I would place it much less close and I would play with the vibrato and the intensity to remove this "static" side. anyway, congratulations on your beautiful achievements! I imagine the work that this represents. respect friend!


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> I find that the version with more reverb sounds more coherent but that said, in your place I would surely start from the drier version, I plan the treble (above 5khz) to move the strings a little away which I still find a little too close (even if oddly to I no longer have this feeling from 2min15 and the whole seems more coherent), I would place the woods in a larger room, and finally I would put a reverb tail on the whole ( at around 5/10%), to the master before the master bus compressor. towards the middle of the room, the solo cello: I would place it much less close and I would play with the vibrato and the intensity to remove this "static" side. anyway, congratulations on your beautiful achievements! I imagine the work that this represents. respect friend!



Thanks a million for your feedback. I know what I will be working on this weekend. I'll start with the drier version and see if I can apply the tweaks you suggest. Again, once I've done this, please let me know if you care to listen on more/last time just to see if you think there has been any improvement!

EDIT: yes, with the cello I was lazy. There was A LOT of copy pasting going on


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> Thanks a million for your feedback. I know what I will be working on this weekend. I'll start with the drier version and see if I can apply the tweaks you suggest. Again, once I've done this, please let me know if you care to listen on more/last time just to see if you think there has been any improvement!
> 
> EDIT: yes, with the cello I was lazy. There was A LOT of copy pasting going on


Of course 👍


----------



## DANIELE

I use Precedence plus Breeze 2.5 and I found the right config for my instruments, in any moment I can move them at my pleasure if I want to adjust something and I don't need so much post-processing.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I use Precedence plus Breeze 2.5 and I found the right config for my instruments, in any moment I can move them at my pleasure if I want to adjust something and I don't need so much post-processing.


Not allowed to spend another penny this year. Maybe next year will be when I can look into both of those, since they look amazing.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I like music said:


> Not allowed to spend another penny this year. Maybe next year will be when I can look into both of those, since they look amazing.


bro it's 38/366 days of this year


----------



## I like music

ProfoundSilence said:


> bro it's 38/366 days of this year



In 2019, I borrowed VST money from my future 2020 self...

I do wonder why I bought 3 children's choirs when I don't write any music with children's choirs ...

PS nice catch on the leap year.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I like music said:


> In 2019, I borrowed VST money from my future 2020 self...
> 
> I do wonder why I bought 3 children's choirs when I don't write any music with children's choirs ...
> 
> PS nice catch on the leap year.


I'm home now, so I can type at full speed, and speech to text doesn't make me sound like an ogre. 

With my whits combined with my manual dexterity, I can reply at the speed of borderline-sad with usually harmless quips


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Not allowed to spend another penny this year. Maybe next year will be when I can look into both of those, since they look amazing.



Buy them while they are on sale, they are a true game changer to bring the orchestra together. Before I did so much post-processing on some of my instruments that I was pissed off, now it is truly good. If I want to make a solist far all I have to do is move it to the farthest place in the panorama.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Buy them while they are on sale, they are a true game changer to bring the orchestra together. Before I did so much post-processing on some of my instruments that I was pissed off, now it is truly good. If I want to make a solist far all I have to do is move it to the farthest place in the panorama.



Stop it!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Stop it!



I see now that I wrote it very badly. If you want I could write it again better. 

Oh and about buying libraries compulsively I decided that I want to have less library possible but I want to master them.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I see now that I wrote it very badly. If you want I could write it again better.
> 
> Oh and about buying libraries compulsively I decided that I want to have less library possible but I want to master them.



After CSW and infinite Strings, sure


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> After CSW and infinite Strings, sure



I don't use CS libraries but I agree about IS, and maybe IP and maybe IC.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I don't use CS libraries but I agree about IS, and maybe IP and maybe IC.



Hah. Imagine when he drops the ethnic winds...


----------



## decredis

Hmm, I tried to post a message on this thread last night, but it seems to have got lost in the forum outages, I'll try again...

I just wanted to say that having bought Infinite Woodwinds last week, I've been having a *lot* of fun playing with them... I've been using a TEC breath/bite controller to control dynamics with breath, and growl with bite, along with an expression pedal to control vibrato intensity, and sliders to control vibrato rate and flutter, and occasional use of the pitch bend wheel.

I'm amazed by how well the phase-aligned samples work... the transitions among the dynamic layers are perfectly smooth, but I understood that this method generally sacrifices timbre, and yet the timbre of the instruments seems lovely too.

Of course the expressiveness is great... the instruments are so easy to use, I can just lose myself frankly noodling on them, as much as I would noodling on the piano (the only instrument I play for real), their sound and responsiveness is so inspiring.

I find the low-velocity extreme portamentos in the clarinet family rather disconcerting, and not to my taste, so I've been using KSP to transform velocities to avoid those low velocities (rather than avoiding low velocities by hand, as it were).

I find the flutter-tongue on the flutes not entirely how I'd expect it to sound... I've not yet come across a modelled flutter that quite sounds like the real thing seems to, and it doesn't quite here either. The growl on the saxophones, on the other hand, sounds great.

The instruments sound wonderful in combinations with each other, and also in combination with other VIs (I've mostly been playing them against Pianoteq pianos and OTS electric guitars/basses) with very little work to get them to sit well together.

I'm sorry I can't give more insightful comments: I am only a hobbyist, and a relative newbie to all of this. I just wanted to convey how very happy I am with these instruments. They're a remarkable, magical piece of work.

I might post some of my music some day, but this would be a big step for me, as I've never shared my music with strangers, and I don't make proper music, unlike many on here. I mostly just improvise (and tweak) little things somewhere in the regions between almost-but-not-quite-'classical' and jazz/blues/rock (and more towards the latter than the former, generally). 

I look forward to the release of the Infinite Brass update and sale period, during which I shall certainly be buying that!

EDIT: I wonder whether, after the ethnic winds, there might someday be an extension into mediaeval winds? Crumhorn, say?


----------



## pierrevigneron

DANIELE said:


> Buy them while they are on sale, they are a true game changer to bring the orchestra together. Before I did so much post-processing on some of my instruments that I was pissed off, now it is truly good. If I want to make a solist far all I have to do is move it to the farthest place in the panorama.


I use eareverbe2 for realistic Space planning and i am very impressed by what psypan gives for the panning (I am just wondering about the possible phase problems)


----------



## DANIELE

pierrevigneron said:


> I use eareverbe2 for realistic Space planning and i am very impressed by what psypan gives for the panning (I am just wondering about the possible phase problems)



I didn't know about this plugin, it seems very good. I like Precedence and Breeze combo because you have a real positioning plugin and the reverb change following the positioning of your instruments. So once you setted up the desired reverb you are good to go for every instrument you put in there.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I didn't know about this plugin, it seems very good. I like Precedence and Breeze combo because you have a real positioning plugin and the reverb change following the positioning of your instruments. So once you setted up the desired reverb you are good to go for every instrument you put in there.


Do you know if


DANIELE said:


> I didn't know about this plugin, it seems very good. I like Precedence and Breeze combo because you have a real positioning plugin and the reverb change following the positioning of your instruments. So once you setted up the desired reverb you are good to go for every instrument you put in there.



Do you know if Panagement achieves something similar to the Precedence + Breeze combo?


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Do you know if
> 
> 
> Do you know if Panagement achieves something similar to the Precedence + Breeze combo?



From what I could see it seems pretty similar featurewise.

Well, it is free so you could try it and let us know if you get good results. I don't have time to try it now but I will do in the future.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> From what I could see it seems pretty similar featurewise.
> 
> Well, it is free so you could try it and let us know if you get good results. I don't have time to try it now but I will do in the future.



I used to use it, but just wondered if it seemed to do the same thing, or not. I might use it. Did you say Aaron had once said that these placement tools could impact the sound negatively somehow (of the Infinite series specifically?


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I used to use it, but just wondered if it seemed to do the same thing, or not. I might use it. Did you say Aaron had once said that these placement tools could impact the sound negatively somehow (of the Infinite series specifically?



Not in general.

It is negative if you loose all space information. I.e. if you use only the dry sound and you put an external reverb on it you loose part of the "dimension" given by the Aaron Library itself.

So in the end you have to find a good compromise between Aaron room placement and your reverb placement.


----------



## pierrevigneron

I find "panagement" great for a feeling of well defined placement (I use "psypan" which is a simplified version but based on the same technology). I have also often wondered if this could not have a negative impact due to the phase shift caused by the latency between the right and left ear (principle of binaural spatialization)


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> Not in general.
> 
> It is negative if you loose all space information. I.e. if you use only the dry sound and you put an external reverb on it you loose part of the "dimension" given by the Aaron Library itself.
> 
> So in the end you have to find a good compromise between Aaron room placement and your reverb placement.



I personally use Panagement as I don't yet have the resources to spend the usual $140 - $199 that processing plugins typically ask for. Right now I need to finish buying my orchestra. While I can't make comparisons between Panagement and Breeze + Precedence, I found Panagement to be very useful in thinning and positioning out the instruments in IW/IB. If I remember correctly, you ever so slightly lose the sense of horizontal space provided by Aaron's convolution algorithm (You can easily preserve the front-to-back positioning), but it's not a huge loss when it's in the mix, and helps contain the footprint of the instruments in larger virtual ensembles. I'm also certain that laymen/clients wouldn't really care about the difference.

With that said, I tend not to process most IW/IB instruments much if at all, especially when used for a smaller, more intimate ensemble sound.


----------



## pierrevigneron

In an orchestral context for IW and IB why not use positioning presets? At least for the "Spot" positions even if it means adding your own reverbs. It seems an effective, coherent solution and very easy to implement right?


I hope IB v 1.4 will be released during my vacation


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> In an orchestral context for IW and IB why not use positioning presets? At least for the "Spot" positions even if it means adding your own reverbs. It seems an effective, coherent solution and very easy to implement right?



Are you talking about making presets in Panagement or directly in IW/IB themselves? I tend to keep my settings fairly basic and straightforward as I find that both libraries sound great out of the box for most instruments. For some of the weaker instruments like the flutes, I'll get my hands dirty with the virtual mic positions, but usually I just use the Mixed Mic setting and choose a distance. The distances are scaled pretty well so I can usually one that works with my mix.



pierrevigneron said:


> I hope IB v 1.4 will be released during my vacation



You and me both my friend. I am truly _craving_ that update!


----------



## DANIELE

I hope it will be out together with Woodwinds update at this point. I think we still have to wait a long time before we could use the 1.4 update. Maybe we will be at 1.5 already.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I hope it will be out together with Woodwinds update at this point. I think we still have to wait a long time before we could use the 1.4 update. Maybe we will be at 1.5 already.



You didn't believe me when I said it might be months. 

And yes, we can only hope to get the woodwinds update at the same time. I just want to keep my expectations conservative. With the quality of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds it's easy to forget we're dealing with a one-man army!


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> You didn't believe me when I said it might be months.
> 
> And yes, we can only hope to get the woodwinds update at the same time. I just want to keep my expectations conservative. With the quality of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds it's easy to forget we're dealing with a one-man army!


I just hope he's going through formalities and not actual litigious/legal issues. They are a time, mental, and money drain. Waiting with bated breath.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> You didn't believe me when I said it might be months.
> 
> And yes, we can only hope to get the woodwinds update at the same time. I just want to keep my expectations conservative. With the quality of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds it's easy to forget we're dealing with a one-man army!



I remember I said this:



DANIELE said:


> Aaron said that the update is ready to launch at any time, there is only this legal issue that is blocking it from to be released. We don't know anything about this issue (as it should be) so we can only wait hoping that this issue will be solved soon. In my country usaully legal issues go on for months but we don't know the nature of the issue so...we can only wait.
> 
> I can't wait for Aaron to show us this update and the new librairies/updates he is working on and I wish him my best.


----------



## decredis

Curious thing, here, I was getting clicks on the attacks of the E flat clarinet only, so I tried to export to audio to upload here, but there was no clicking on the exported audio; so I checked the CPU monitor in Cubase and found that it was hitting 100% on the E flat clarinet attacks, presumably causing the clicks. With all the other instruments, it doesn't get anywhere near 100% CPU, just with the E flat clarinet. 

(CPU is i7-3770 @ 3.40 GHz; RAM is 16 GB)


----------



## El Buhdai

♾️🎺

🕐 🕑 🕒 🕓 🕔 🕕 🕖 🕗 🕗 🕘 🕙 🕚
😃 😀 🙂 😐 😕 🙁 ☹ 😣 😖 😫 😩 😭


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> ♾️🎺
> 
> 🕐 🕑 🕒 🕓 🕔 🕕 🕖 🕗 🕗 🕘 🕙 🕚
> 😃 😀 🙂 😐 😕 🙁 ☹ 😣 😖 😫 😩 😭



Infinite waiting...


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> Infinite waiting...



At this point I'm getting concerned that the legal battle he's fighting is beginning to be hell... I really hope it doesn't completely drain the life out of him. I'm sure he's just as excited as we are for us to sink our teeth into the fruits of his labor.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> At this point I'm getting concerned that the legal battle he's fighting is beginning to be hell... I really hope it doesn't completely drain the life out of him. I'm sure he's just as excited as we are for us to sink our teeth into the fruits of his labor.



I don't know the nature of this issue but I think, as Aaron said many times, he could only wait until it is solved. It is pretty strange that this has been going on for so long and at this point we could even have to wait for a very long time.

If it was a simple thing it should be already solved. It should be something regarding permissions to use or show or post something on his site or in the library itself. Maybe some copyright issue or something similar.

Maybe it is going on for so long because it involves many subjects that have to find some kind of agreement.

I'm very sad about this, I'm sad that these great examples of technology has to be stopped because of problems like this.


----------



## Eptesicus

Maybe when he talked about a black friday sale, he actually meant 2020, not 2019


----------



## Supremo

I just guess this legal battle may have something to do with a non-sanctioned use of IRs in Aaron's instruments?


----------



## DANIELE

Supremo said:


> I just guess this legal battle may have something to do with a non-sanctioned use of IRs in Aaron's instruments?



But if this is the cause why not just remove them from this update and add again them later? Signed IR could be a great addition but actually I'm fine with what I have and I could wait for them for a 1.4.1 or even a 1.5 update.

I think it should be a someway deeper cause. Something buried in the library itself maybe...

I obviously could be wrong.


----------



## axb312

@aaronventure Is everything OK?


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> But if this is the cause why not just remove them from this update and add again them later? Signed IR could be a great addition but actually I'm fine with what I have and I could wait for them for a 1.4.1 or even a 1.5 update.
> 
> I think it should be a someway deeper cause. Something buried in the library itself maybe...
> 
> I obviously could be wrong.


Agreed that if it's IRs it would seem to make sense to hold off from them till a later update; but can't be too buried a thing as I think Aaron said it'd be very obvious what the thing was on the site and in the videos.


----------



## Supremo

Yes but how to deal legally with so many library copies that Aaron sold thus far which contained those IRs? Legal claims may have been brought against all those monies earned, and this could stop him from doing further releases until the entire case is settled. But again, this is just a crazy guess. Aaron's issue may be something completely different from what came into my mind.


----------



## DANIELE

Supremo said:


> Yes but how to deal legally with so many library copies that Aaron sold thus far which contained those IRs? Legal claims may have been brought against all those monies earned, and this could stop him from doing further releases until the entire case is settled. But again, this is just a crazy guess. Aaron's issue may be something completely different from what came into my mind.



I didn't think backward. I was only thinking about something related to the release of this new update but it could be something related to the already out libraries versions. But...I remember he talked about something that has to be released, something about the site and the update (etc...), so it must be something regarding the new update and the future updates. Something that is blocking him from releasing the work he already done and the work he will do...

I'm not in a rush and I don't want to put pressure of any kind on Aaron, I'm just asking myself if all this time passed and all the time has to pass is a sign of a big issue. I really hope not...


----------



## Sean J

axb312 said:


> @aaronventure Is everything OK?



He replied after the legal hold-up was mentioned, saying he'd still offer fair crossgrades. It's probably branding or something small. It's not like he's been ordered to shut down sales. He's not going anywhere.


----------



## I like music

No joke. Heard someone at the gym asking someone else if they wanted to do "bench press" today. And my mind instantly went Bench > Bencher > Venture > Infinite Series, so I thought I'd come here and bump just to annoy everyone.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> No joke. Heard someone at the gym asking someone else if they wanted to do "bench press" today. And my mind instantly went Bench > Bencher > Venture > Infinite Series, so I thought I'd come here and bump just to annoy everyone.


And I genuinely thought, oooo its been so long since the last post there's no way this is going to be a random bump, it's got to be Aaron telling us our time has come at last.


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> And I genuinely thought, oooo its been so long since the last post there's no way this is going to be a random bump, it's got to be Aaron telling us our time has come at last.



Yeah I thinked it too! 

Anyway, could the COVID-19 be the cause of this long waiting time? We don't know where the "lawyers" live. Maybe they are infected and they can't solve the issue.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> And I genuinely thought, oooo its been so long since the last post there's no way this is going to be a random bump, it's got to be Aaron telling us our time has come at last.



Sorry man! I'm still super excited to see what's next, so hoping it all gets resolved for everyone!


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Yeah I thinked it too!
> 
> Anyway, could the COVID-19 be the cause of this long waiting time? We don't know where the "lawyers" live. Maybe they are infected and they can't solve the issue.



Damn, hadn't even thought that far! btw do you live in Italy?


----------



## Paul Jelfs

I have only have read this post, so excuse me if i missed something or am late to the party - but if Aaron says it is Obvious what the legal issue is from the videos, surely its simply that in the videos he uses famous pieces of music - in his walkthrough and in his demos ? Star Wars and ET i think etc - Could it be as simple as whoever owns the music is giving him a hard time? And demanding money for using their music to promote sales ? 

I hope i am wrong, as Aaron is such a great guy, and does not deserve to be wrung out to try over some silly issue.


----------



## I like music

Paul Jelfs said:


> I have only have read this post, so excuse me if i missed something or am late to the party - but if Aaron says it is Obvious what the legal issue is from the videos, surely its simply that in the videos he uses famous pieces of music - in his walkthrough and in his demos ? Star Wars and ET i think etc - Could it be as simple as whoever owns the music is giving him a hard time? And demanding money for using their music to promote sales ?
> 
> I hope i am wrong, as Aaron is such a great guy, and does not deserve to be wrung out to try over some silly issue.



Very very possible! I think he once mentioned wanting to get permissions to do some John Williams mockups on his site. It could also be that he's trying to make a bigger splash (marketing) and so looking for some kind of a deal which allows him to use different music which his audience might relate to a bit more (btw I love the choice of music he has used so far).


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Damn, hadn't even thought that far! btw do you live in Italy?



Yes, I live in Italy, but don't believe what someone is saying, we are not the source of this virus in Europe.

The situation here is not so good, they are slowly put everyone at home to avoid direct contact. 

Anyway, for everyone here, I'm not contagious on the forum, don't worry. 

I hope Aaron is doing well, we don't hear anything from him from a long time.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Yes, I live in Italy, but don't believe what someone is saying, we are not the source of this virus in Europe.
> 
> The situation here is not so good, they are slowly put everyone at home to avoid direct contact.
> 
> Anyway, for everyone here, I'm not contagious on the forum, don't worry.
> 
> I hope Aaron is doing well, we don't hear anything from him from a long time.



Stay safe! I'm in the UK and things are going to get spicy here.

@aaronventure you doing alright?


----------



## doctoremmet

Hi. I very recently purchased Infinite Woodwinds and have had email contact with Aaron. He said that the legal thing will likely resolve some time in the near future and he is still very confident about ultimately releasing v1.4. No indications of the actual projected release date, but it did sound pretty reassuring. Btw, what a great instrument!


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> Hi. I very recently purchased Infinite Woodwinds and have had email contact with Aaron. He said that the legal thing will likely resolve some time in the near future and he is still very confident about ultimately releasing v1.4. No indications of the actual projected release date, but it did sound pretty reassuring. Btw, what a great instrument!


Exciting news. Now it's a four-horse apocalyptic race among the various near-future events: world war, climate catastrophe, extinction by coronavirus, and IB 1.4. Crossing my fingers that IB 1.4 will win the race by a nose.


----------



## doctoremmet

I reckon that people with an unhealthy fascination for emulating wind instruments typically use breath controllers and EWIs and thus have strong lungs. This will likely result in them being the only humans surviving the corona zombiecalypse - which in turn makes the release of v1.4 even more relevant!


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> I reckon that people with an unhealthy fascination for emulating wind instruments typically use breath controllers and EWIs and thus have strong lungs. This will likely result in them being the only humans surviving the corona zombiecalypse - which in turn makes the release of v1.4 even more relevant!



Well, then I think I could be immune due to my frequent breath controller usage until I almost finished the air in my room.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> Well, then I think I could be immune due to my frequent breath controller usage until I almost finished the air in my room.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> Well, then I think I could be immune due to my frequent breath controller usage until I almost finished the air in my room.



Watch my screen closely, as I click the link to your YouTube channel. I want to listen to your music, but FIRST I need to finish the brand new Doctor Mix episode of the Knightrider theme mockup he’s doing. Another friend from Italy! Lol!


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> No joke. Heard someone at the gym asking someone else if they wanted to do "bench press" today. And my mind instantly went Bench > Bencher > Venture > Infinite Series, so I thought I'd come here and bump just to annoy everyone.



I swear, any time I hear any news in the music world... even about something completely irrelevant, all I can think is to jump into the discussion and say "that's great, and there's this great library by Aaron Venture". It's like my brain only wants to hear about this and nothing else.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Any new mockups using Infinite Winds you guys would like to share? I'd love to hear some more


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> Watch my screen closely, as I click the link to your YouTube channel. I want to listen to your music, but FIRST I need to finish the brand new Doctor Mix episode of the Knightrider theme mockup he’s doing. Another friend from Italy! Lol!



Italy has just become all red.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Italy has just become all red.


Damn. Just heard!


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> Italy has just become all red.



Hang in there mate! <3


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## Eptesicus

doctoremmet said:


> Hi. I very recently purchased Infinite Woodwinds and have had email contact with Aaron. He said that the legal thing will likely resolve some time in the near future and he is still very confident about ultimately releasing v1.4. No indications of the actual projected release date, but it did sound pretty reassuring. Btw, what a great instrument!



Hm..that is alarming. This implies that this legal thing could end up meaning he isn't able to release v1.4?


----------



## DANIELE

Eptesicus said:


> Hm..that is alarming. This implies that this legal thing could end up meaning he isn't able to release v1.4?



I think he will revert back the "thing" if it will end like this. The main goal of the update is another big technical improvement on instruments and that cannot be the cause of this legal issue.


----------



## Sean J

Has anyone had a chance to try Infinite libraries in Notion? It's rules affect note length, velocity, etc... thus I ask.


----------



## doctoremmet

Eptesicus said:


> Hm..that is alarming. This implies that this legal thing could end up meaning he isn't able to release v1.4?



Well, that was what was implied earlier in this thread wasn’t it? My post being a kind of reassurance that all is going to be well, at least that was my impression. So quite the opposite, I’d say...


----------



## mojamusic

What fixes are anticipated in the update?


----------



## DANIELE

mojamusic said:


> What fixes are anticipated in the update?



I wouldn't call them "fixes" I'd call them improvements. He should have improved the trumpets and added some more randomizations to all the instruments (so some little delays and some little detuning to all of them) to play them better as an ensemble.


----------



## Eptesicus

doctoremmet said:


> Well, that was what was implied earlier in this thread wasn’t it? My post being a kind of reassurance that all is going to be well, at least that was my impression. So quite the opposite, I’d say...



I thought the legal stuff hinted at some sort of new collaboration, change in product name, Kontakt player compatibility etc.

I didn't think it was actually a legal battle over whether or not he can release an update or not (which is what is implied in what he told you).


----------



## doctoremmet

Eptesicus said:


> I thought the legal stuff hinted at some sort of new collaboration, change in product name, Kontakt player compatibility etc.
> 
> I didn't think it was actually a legal battle over whether or not he can release an update or not (which is what is implied in what he told you).



I see. Did not mean to make it sound that way. What I meant to convey was that whatever the legal stuff involves, it has clearly taken some time to deal with - hence the delay. Since sometimes delay will be interpreted as potential grounds for worries, about let’s say “continuity”, I merely wanted to state that Aaron basically said: no worries, working on it, will be cool. That was all I wanted to get across.


----------



## El Buhdai

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Any new mockups using Infinite Winds you guys would like to share? I'd love to hear some more



Sure. What would you like to hear?

I've been using the libraries in my current project.

If you're looking for something in a full orchestral context, I could send a snippet and point out the instruments.

If you want more exposed solos and melodies I can mock up some melodies of your choosing.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Sure. What would you like to hear?
> 
> I've been using the libraries in my current project.
> 
> If you're looking for something in a full orchestral context, I could send a snippet and point out the instruments.
> 
> If you want more exposed solos and melodies I can mock up some melodies of your choosing.


Both!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Both!



Request any melodies you like!

I'll prepare my project for sharing. It's very much a WIP.


----------



## Heledir

For the future, I've been looking at a replace-all, orchestral library/series, and this has pretty much won it over my other options (primarily the Cinematic Studio series; there's still Berlin, but that costs a bloody ton). The Infinite series looks almost tailor made for me. I write quite notation-like for the 'real' orchestral sections. As in, I'd rather use six sepperate horns than a 6 horns patch, and from what I've heard, with the controls you have, you can make six sepperate horns sound like a section very well. Also particularly drawn to the range of instruments (e.g. comparing Infinite Brass to Cinematic Studio Brass). That and obviously the sound!

I do have a question, though:
While it boasts a low RAM footprint, I did notice in the walkthrough that the CPU usage while using (I think) six horns together reached into the 30%. So I worry - especially in the future when all sections are released (unless this lawsuite is suddenly way worse than expected!) - that running a orchestral template with Infinite will just explode the CPU outright. 
How have others' experiences been with the CPU load?


----------



## El Buhdai

Heledir said:


> How have others' experiences been with the CPU load?



Uh oh. Time for a bit of honesty. I ran into this hardcore in my latest piece. For the more climactic parts of full-orchestra arrangements, I've watched my CPU (i7-7700K) reach almost max and become completely unlistenable unless I lower the timebase in my DAW. And this is with most of the Infinite instruments just sustaining a chord. Being careful about the number of instruments you don't use mixed mic on is helpful, but even then, things can get kind of hot.

With that said, for agile melodies, they're still unmatched aside from the stuff from Sample Modeling (though you sacrifice even more tone there, so it's not for me). Every time I write a part with an Infinite Instrument I get spoiled because when I pass that melody to another library, even something like CSS with its fluid legatos, it sounds significantly more stiff and less musical unless I work it a bit.

My thing is that, within reason, I'll take agility and musicality over pure tone any day because in the mix, those things don't matter as much if you pair them with a more traditional strings and percussion library. However, when you're writing something difficult for sample libraries to perform, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds will save you a lot of time.


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> Uh oh. Time for a bit of honesty. I ran into this hardcore in my latest piece. For the more climactic parts of full-orchestra arrangements, I've watched my CPU (i7-7700K) reach almost max and become completely unlistenable unless I lower the timebase in my DAW. And this is with most of the Infinite instruments just sustaining a chord. Being careful about the number of instruments you don't use mixed mic on is helpful, but even then, things can get kind of hot.
> 
> With that said, for agile melodies, they're still unmatched aside from the stuff from Sample Modeling (though you sacrifice even more tone there, so it's not for me). Every time I write a part with an Infinite Instrument I get spoiled because when I pass that melody to another library, even something like CSS with its fluid legatos, it sounds significantly more stiff and less musical unless I work it a bit.
> 
> My thing is that, within reason, I'll take agility and musicality over pure tone any day because in the mix, those things don't matter as much if you pair them with a more traditional strings and percussion library. However, when you're writing something difficult for sample libraries to perform, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds will save you a lot of time.



This was my worry and why i have been hesitant to pick these up. 

From watching the cpu meters in the tutorials and from user experience, i think a full large orchestra is going to be too cpu intensive.

I guess you have to pick your poison really For example, with JXL Brass and SINE, ram footprint can be massive, but cpu usage is TINY (like, seriously impressive). At least with SINE also, when you are happy with the mic mix you can merge it into one to save ram.


----------



## El Buhdai

Eptesicus said:


> From watching the cpu meters in the tutorials and from user experience, i think a full large orchestra is going to be too cpu intensive.



To be honest as much as I _adore_ these libraries and the work that went into them, I wouldn't recommend you build your entire orchestra from them anyway... yet. CPU usage aside, you'll have to work pretty hard to make the Flutes, Trumpets, Trombones (as a section.. they sound great as soloists) and English Horns sound believable at this time because the tone is just way off in my opinion. 

On the flip side though, having an Oboe this agile has made me write for the instrument so much more than I ever would have. Having a nice solo horn that can play without the unnecessary exaggerated legatos that a lot of other brass libraries do is great too. The clarinets have a really nice warmness to them as well. The bass winds and saxophones are great to have too because they're usually an afterthought or not included at all, and the way he tuned the room response on the bass and contrabass clarinets just makes them absolutely delicious.

Infinite Brass 1.0 from what I've heard was basically unusable, with the French Horns being the most criticized. Now? As a former horn player, I wouldn't use French Horns from any other library unless I need something really loud. I don't write epic music though. The point is these libraries grow, and they improve.

Give them some time and they may be able to form a very convincing orchestra by themselves tone-wise, but for now, you need traditional libraries to supplement some of the instruments to provide an illusion of reality through contrast. Aaron seems determined though, so it may be only a matter of time before we can say goodbye to our traditional libraries for good, at least for certain pieces.


----------



## I like music

I have a second-hand Dell gaming laptop I bought from someone on Vi Control (i5 2.2 or 2.4, cannot remember) and with the mix mic option I've never had trouble. That's brass PLUS woodwinds PLUS lots of sample modeling. But then my standards are stupidly low when it comes to performance, pops and cracks. Maybe the fact that I have my buffer set to 2048 saves my ass, but since i don't play anything in, it works for me!


----------



## Sean J

At least the tone is very fixable.

*Caution* This contains opinions. Lots and lots and lots of opinions.

I'm only sharing it if it helps anyone get better results with Infinite, based on my tests. I don't own Infinite to export an example. A friend bought it and I've just had a chance to play with mixing it. My goal was simply to see if I could effectively EQ match it to Spitfire. I had results that he couldn't tell the difference between Infinite and Spitfire on. Most instruments were 80% to 90% similar. The Tuba, horns, trumpets, and bass clarinet were 99%. So this is my mentality and approach.

IMHO, those who say a library has too Hollywood/Classical sound for their taste, most often say such things in ignorance of the fact that an EQ change is all it would take to change their mind. Tone can be changed very easily. Performance is the hard part. Try getting most libraries to perform like Infinite by simply playing it. HA! Good luck with that.







Try something like this (ish) on a Tuba. I've been demoing CraveEQ and absolutely love it. Extremely transparent. It looks like FabFilter/Voxengo in GUI, but the sound... very different. A tuba still sounds like a tuba with it. Couldn't say enough about it. The only thing about Infinite is that even after a mid-range fix like above... I find you have to still roll off the high end just a tiny bit, and you have to add a notch-like duck on the breath noise as it's too much once you EQ it. He doesn't give enough control over breath for EQ'ing his libraries. Still, it's manageable.

Anyway, fix the mid range... then put Gullfoss on slot 2 to fix resonant issues. Gullfoss is great for sampled instruments that way, especially dry instruments multiplied in convolution. Plus, Gullfoss gives you an easy way to adjust brightness after the mid-range 'fix'. There's your easy Hollywood/Classical button. It's important to tame highs still if using it brightly. There is some logic to a fletcher-munson curve after all. Who knew? But to me, this approach makes it really easy to control Infinite's sound. Match to Spitfire, avoid problems, then use the easy button as needed.

I'd like to say only 2 plugins fixes my issue, but... reverb. IMHO, IB needs a warm and complex IR. I've made real and synthetic IR's to copy Lyndhurst. It's not exact, but it's certainly better than Valhalla and hardware verbs IMO. Even then, the EQ'ing makes Infinite have a more blended sound much more than the reverb. A brass choir in a small room can still blend when they pay attention to their tone. I'm a brass player. 

Anyway, the short of it is simple. It's not hard to get a good tone. It just needs managing. EQ, gullfoss, good verb. And ultimately, our writing makes 10,000% more difference than any sample library or mixing technique ever will.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> At least the tone is very fixable.



Great post, but do you have any Spitfire / Tuned Infinite comparison audio? 

If what you said is true, you might have just helped every single owner of these libraries.


----------



## axb312

scoredfilms said:


> At least the tone is very fixable.
> 
> *Caution* This contains opinions. Lots and lots and lots of opinions.
> 
> I'm only sharing it if it helps anyone get better results with Infinite, based on my tests. I don't own Infinite to export an example. A friend bought it and I've just had a chance to play with mixing it. My goal was simply to see if I could effectively EQ match it to Spitfire. I had results that he couldn't tell the difference between Infinite and Spitfire on. Most instruments were 80% to 90% similar. The Tuba, horns, trumpets, and bass clarinet were 99%. So this is my mentality and approach.
> 
> IMHO, those who say a library has too Hollywood/Classical sound for their taste, most often say such things in ignorance of the fact that an EQ change is all it would take to change their mind. Tone can be changed very easily. Performance is the hard part. Try getting most libraries to perform like Infinite by simply playing it. HA! Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try something like this (ish) on a Tuba. I've been demoing CraveEQ and absolutely love it. Extremely transparent. It looks like FabFilter/Voxengo in GUI, but the sound... very different. A tuba still sounds like a tuba with it. Couldn't say enough about it. The only thing about Infinite is that even after a mid-range fix like above... I find you have to still roll off the high end just a tiny bit, and you have to add a notch-like duck on the breath noise as it's too much once you EQ it. He doesn't give enough control over breath for EQ'ing his libraries. Still, it's manageable.
> 
> Anyway, fix the mid range... then put Gullfoss on slot 2 to fix resonant issues. Gullfoss is great for sampled instruments that way, especially dry instruments multiplied in convolution. Plus, Gullfoss gives you an easy way to adjust brightness after the mid-range 'fix'. There's your easy Hollywood/Classical button. It's important to tame highs still if using it brightly. There is some logic to a fletcher-munson curve after all. Who knew? But to me, this approach makes it really easy to control Infinite's sound. Match to Spitfire, avoid problems, then use the easy button as needed.
> 
> I'd like to say only 2 plugins fixes my issue, but... reverb. IMHO, IB needs a warm and complex IR. I've made real and synthetic IR's to copy Lyndhurst. It's not exact, but it's certainly better than Valhalla and hardware verbs IMO. Even then, the EQ'ing makes Infinite have a more blended sound much more than the reverb. A brass choir in a small room can still blend when they pay attention to their tone. I'm a brass player.
> 
> Anyway, the short of it is simple. It's not hard to get a good tone. It just needs managing. EQ, gullfoss, good verb. And ultimately, our writing makes 10,000% more difference than any sample library or mixing technique ever will.



Audio example?


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Great post, but do you have any Spitfire / Tuned Infinite comparison audio?
> 
> If what you said is true, you might have just helped every single owner of these libraries.



I'm headed to my friend's tomorrow, who already owns the bundle. I'm sure he'd be fine with me exporting a bit. I'll EQ it at home and post it by Friday if I can. I've had to wait on Infinite (other stuff to do), but I'm honestly debating on selling some stuff I rarely use to get it sooner. My goal is mobility anyway. Dongle free. Mwa ha ha!!


----------



## SoNowWhat?

scoredfilms said:


> At least the tone is very fixable.
> 
> *Caution* This contains opinions. Lots and lots and lots of opinions.
> 
> I'm only sharing it if it helps anyone get better results with Infinite, based on my tests. I don't own Infinite to export an example. A friend bought it and I've just had a chance to play with mixing it. My goal was simply to see if I could effectively EQ match it to Spitfire. I had results that he couldn't tell the difference between Infinite and Spitfire on. Most instruments were 80% to 90% similar. The Tuba, horns, trumpets, and bass clarinet were 99%. So this is my mentality and approach.
> 
> IMHO, those who say a library has too Hollywood/Classical sound for their taste, most often say such things in ignorance of the fact that an EQ change is all it would take to change their mind. Tone can be changed very easily. Performance is the hard part. Try getting most libraries to perform like Infinite by simply playing it. HA! Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try something like this (ish) on a Tuba. I've been demoing CraveEQ and absolutely love it. Extremely transparent. It looks like FabFilter/Voxengo in GUI, but the sound... very different. A tuba still sounds like a tuba with it. Couldn't say enough about it. The only thing about Infinite is that even after a mid-range fix like above... I find you have to still roll off the high end just a tiny bit, and you have to add a notch-like duck on the breath noise as it's too much once you EQ it. He doesn't give enough control over breath for EQ'ing his libraries. Still, it's manageable.
> 
> Anyway, fix the mid range... then put Gullfoss on slot 2 to fix resonant issues. Gullfoss is great for sampled instruments that way, especially dry instruments multiplied in convolution. Plus, Gullfoss gives you an easy way to adjust brightness after the mid-range 'fix'. There's your easy Hollywood/Classical button. It's important to tame highs still if using it brightly. There is some logic to a fletcher-munson curve after all. Who knew? But to me, this approach makes it really easy to control Infinite's sound. Match to Spitfire, avoid problems, then use the easy button as needed.
> 
> I'd like to say only 2 plugins fixes my issue, but... reverb. IMHO, IB needs a warm and complex IR. I've made real and synthetic IR's to copy Lyndhurst. It's not exact, but it's certainly better than Valhalla and hardware verbs IMO. Even then, the EQ'ing makes Infinite have a more blended sound much more than the reverb. A brass choir in a small room can still blend when they pay attention to their tone. I'm a brass player.
> 
> Anyway, the short of it is simple. It's not hard to get a good tone. It just needs managing. EQ, gullfoss, good verb. And ultimately, our writing makes 10,000% more difference than any sample library or mixing technique ever will.


Slightly OT but Crave Eq is indeed most excellent.
Free demo available for anyone interested in trying it out.


----------



## Harald

Hi there,

Is there any plan to make the libraries work with kontakt player (free version) ?
What do you guys expect from the incoming Infinite Strings ?
Which differences with SM strings & ensemble ?
Did someone test SM brass VS Infinite brass ? (sound, tone, playability, dynamics...)


----------



## doctoremmet

Harald said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Is there any plan to make the libraries work with kontakt player (free version) ?
> What do you guys expect from the incoming Infinite Strings ?
> Which differences with SM strings & ensemble ?
> Did someone test SM brass VS Infinite brass ? (sound, tone, playability, dynamics...)



I asked the first question as well. Answer: there will be no version for the free Kontakt Player, as that involves paying fees to Native Instruments and additional DRM worries as well. This will definitely remain a full Kontakt instrument, at least for the foreseeable future!

As far as strings are concerned, your guess is as good as mine. I only own Infinite Woodwinds right now and I must say it is by far the most playable enjoyable MUSICAL library I have ever come across. No idea how that compares to SM, as I have never played their instruments. So for strings I am hoping for some really expressive legato violin, viola and cello playing, with a bunch of switchable articulations, smoothly modeled.

I am really looking forward to find out.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> I asked the first question as well. Answer: there will be no version for the free Kontakt Player, as that involves paying fees to Native Instruments and additional DRM worries as well. This will definitely remain a full Kontakt instrument, at least for the foreseeable future!
> 
> As far as strings are concerned, your guess is as good as mine. I only own Infinite Woodwinds right now and I must say it is by far the most playable enjoyable MUSICAL library I have ever come across. No idea how that compares to SM, as I have never played their instruments. So for strings I am hoping for some really expressive legato violin, viola and cello playing, with a bunch of switchable articulations, smoothly modeled.
> 
> I am really looking forward to find out.



You haven't got the brass?! You won't regret it. Better than the winds I reckon. Although some of the winds are amazing. I love that oboe.


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> You haven't got the brass?! You won't regret it. Better than the winds I reckon. Although some of the winds are amazing. I love that oboe.


I am also interested about a Infinite vs sample modeling vs audio modeling comparaison for the brass


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Harald said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Is there any plan to make the libraries work with kontakt player (free version) ?
> What do you guys expect from the incoming Infinite Strings ?
> Which differences with SM strings & ensemble ?
> Did someone test SM brass VS Infinite brass ? (sound, tone, playability, dynamics...)



Lots. The biggest one would be that Infinite Strings will be, if I remember correctly, all solo instruments. So, if you want an ensemble of 16 Violins you will use 16 different Violins patches. If you want 4 Violins you just use 4 of the Violin patches. You will create your own ensemble size. Then, of course, you can use the transpose trick present in his other products to make a 30 piece Cello ensemble if you want.

I believe he said there would be leads for all sections as well. Meaning: 16+1 different patches for Violins.

It's been a while since I read anything about Ifninte Strings (except for the latest posts here that don't add any info, just speculations and bumps) so I'm not sure if I remember 100% correctly.

This makes much sense because of the way Aaron makes his instrument. Have you ever tried to phase align something that's an ensemble or drenched in reverb? Well, good luck.



doctoremmet said:


> I asked the first question as well. Answer: there will be no version for the free Kontakt Player, as that involves paying fees to Native Instruments and additional DRM worries as well. This will definitely remain a full Kontakt instrument, at least for the foreseeable future!
> 
> As far as strings are concerned, your guess is as good as mine. I only own Infinite Woodwinds right now and I must say it is by far the most playable enjoyable MUSICAL library I have ever come across. No idea how that compares to SM, as I have never played their instruments. So for strings I am hoping for some really expressive legato violin, viola and cello playing, with a bunch of switchable articulations, smoothly modeled.
> 
> I am really looking forward to find out.



Sample Modelling don't even have any Woodwinds yet, the only competition right now is Audio Modeling. Although, they both use very different philosophy behind them.


I hope Aaron will do to String what he did to Woodwinds and Brass: an instrument with the flexibility and playability of a modelled instrument with the sound of a sampled instrument. I also trust him more than almost any other developer. Trust is hard to come by nowadays, but Aaron has done nothing but earn my greatest respect because of his insane work ethic. I trust him to do this right, even if it takes more time than planned.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> You haven't got the brass?! You won't regret it. Better than the winds I reckon. Although some of the winds are amazing. I love that oboe.


The oboe is awesome, but playing the Clarinet with the Tecontrol BBC2 is also a true joy.

I only recently came across VI Control and through this site (this thread in fact!) I heard first about the Infinite Series. I am holding off purchasing Brass since I want to use the sale that coincides with the v1.4 release and then crossgrade to the Infinite Winds bundle and save me some $. As my current instrument is anything to go by, I will be in for a treat!


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> I am also interested about a Infinite vs sample modeling vs audio modeling comparaison for the brass



Happy to recreate a line on the brass if someone posts a SM example etc.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> Lots. The biggest one would be that Infinite Strings will be, if I remember correctly, all solo instruments. So, if you want an ensemble of 16 Violins you will use 16 different Violins patches. If you want 4 Violins you just use 4 of the Violin patches. You will create your own ensemble size. Then, of course, you can use the transpose trick present in his other products to make a 30 piece Cello ensemble if you want.
> 
> I believe he said there would be leads for all sections as well. Meaning: 16+1 different patches for Violins.
> 
> It's been a while since I read anything about Ifninte Strings (except for the latest posts here that don't add any info, just speculations and bumps) so I'm not sure if I remember 100% correctly.
> 
> This makes much sense because of the way Aaron makes his instrument. Have you ever tried to phase align something that's an ensemble or drenched in reverb? Well, good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> Sample Modelling don't even have any Woodwinds yet, the only competition right now is Audio Modeling. Although, they both use very different philosophy behind them.
> 
> 
> I hope Aaron will do to String what he did to Woodwinds and Brass: an instrument with the flexibility and playability of a modelled instrument with the sound of a sampled instrument. I also trust him more than almost any other developer. Trust is hard to come by nowadays, but Aaron has done nothing but earn my greatest respect because of his insane work ethic. I trust him to do this right, even if it takes more time than planned.



If I remember correctly Aaron said that the strings will have solos and ensembles patches, I think he will follow the same philosophy as per brass and woodwinds libraries. So we will have solo patches and we will able to stack them to build multiple solos playing at the same time (with the same improvements we have to expect from brass 1.4 and, I think, woodwinds 1.2) and we will have ensemble patches were we could manage the size by using a specific cc control he will setup.
He will do everything he already did with previous libraries so no keyswitches and all CC controlled for maximum playability.

This is what I could say from what Aaron said and from what I understand from his working philosophy.

Strings are the most complicated instrument I think, because they could be played in many ways, by using the bow (in various positions and with various speed and pressure) and the fingers. So we have to take in account that maybe he will be forced to use some KS in IS because of this. Infact, how could you have _pizzicato_ or _col legno_ with CC controls only?

Maybe he will surprise us all, I don't know. I'm sure that he will bring to us another great library and if there will be something not working so well he will fix it.

In the end don't forget about percussion, I'm very curious about them too, I miss a very dynamic percussion library, I hope he will expand the classic percussions with ethnic ones..

Oh, and don't forget about ethnic woodwinds too....

I hope he is doing well and I think 2020 will be a truly great year for orchestral libraries evolution.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> If I remember correctly Aaron said that the strings will have solos and ensembles patches, I think he will follow the same philosophy as per brass and woodwinds libraries. So we will have solo patches and we will able to stack them to build multiple solos playing at the same time (with the same improvements we have to expect from brass 1.4 and, I think, woodwinds 1.2) and we will have ensemble patches were we could manage the size by using a specific cc control he will setup.
> He will do everything he already did with previous libraries so no keyswitches and all CC controlled for maximum playability.
> 
> This is what I could say from what Aaron said and from what I understand from his working philosophy.
> 
> Strings are the most complicated instrument I think, because they could be played in many ways, by using the bow (in various positions and with various speed and pressure) and the fingers. So we have to take in account that maybe he will be forced to use some KS in IS because of this. Infact, how could you have _pizzicato_ or _col legno_ with CC controls only?
> 
> Maybe he will surprise us all, I don't know. I'm sure that he will bring to us another great library and if there will be something not working so well he will fix it.
> 
> In the end don't forget about percussion, I'm very curious about them too, I miss a very dynamic percussion library, I hope he will expand the classic percussions with ethnic ones..
> 
> Oh, and don't forget about ethnic woodwinds too....
> 
> I hope he is doing well and I think 2020 will be a truly great year for orchestral libraries evolution.


Ethnic instruments would be truly amazing. I recently obtained two Duduk instruments for Kontakt, both of them free and I must say I love the sound of those. The JADE Ethnic Orchestra that was announced this week also has some beautiful instruments!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

DANIELE said:


> If I remember correctly Aaron said that the strings will have solos and ensembles patches, I think he will follow the same philosophy as per brass and woodwinds libraries. So we will have solo patches and we will able to stack them to build multiple solos playing at the same time (with the same improvements we have to expect from brass 1.4 and, I think, woodwinds 1.2) and we will have ensemble patches were we could manage the size by using a specific cc control he will setup.
> He will do everything already did with previous libraries so no keyswitches and all CC controlled for maximum playability.
> 
> This is what I could say from Aaron said and from what I understand from his working philosophy.
> 
> Strings are the most complicated instrument I think because they could be played in many ways, by using the bow (in various positions and with various speed and pressure) and the fingers. So we have to take in account that maybe he will be forced to use some KS in IS because of this. Infact, how could you have pizzicato or col legno with CC controls?
> 
> Maybe he will surprise us all, I don't know. I'm sure that he will bring to us another great library and if there will be something not working so well he will fix it.
> 
> In the end don't forget about percussion, I'm very curious about them too, I miss a very dynamic percussion library, I hope he will expand the classic percussions with ethnic ones..
> 
> Oh, and don't forget about ethnic woodwinds too....
> 
> I hope he is doing well and I think 2020 will be a truly great year for orchestral libraries evolution.



I would guess that the ensemble patches are either multis or a single patch with the strings just compiled in it, meaning it would basically be the same thing as playing the strings together with different patches. Same CPU usage and same RAM usage, just with a unified interface. Different from what SM is doing.

I just don't see a way to lower the RAM usage and CPU usage (except for the fact that you only have to load one patch in Kontakt with the same interface) other than using a recorded or rendered ensemble sound and that would ruin the whole concept. You can't possibly phase-align that, but there might be a way that I've not heard of or a proprietary way.

Yep. I would be _surprised _if Aaron decided to just change the whole concept and do key switches or change the philosophy behind the instrument halfway through the collection. That actually one thing I really appreciate about this series: the consistency between the sections. They all use the same base concept.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> I would guess that the ensemble patches are either multis or a single patch with the strings just compiled in it, meaning it would basically be the same thing as playing the strings together with different patches. Same CPU usage and same RAM usage, just with a unified interface. Different from what SM is doing.
> 
> I just don't see a way to lower the RAM usage and CPU usage (except for the fact that you only have to load one patch in Kontakt with the same interface) other than using a recorded or rendered ensemble sound and that would ruin the whole concept. You can't possibly phase-align that, but there might be a way that I've not heard of or a proprietary way.
> 
> Yep. I would be _surprised _if Aaron decided to just change the whole concept and do key switches or change the philosophy behind the instrument halfway through the collection. That actually one thing I really appreciate about this series: the consistency between the sections. They all use the same base concept.



Maybe, we don't know. I think he will optimize in some way the ensemble patches because he has been very careful about it in the existing libraries. I'm not in this technology enough to say more than this but I think there is a way to do it.

About the change of concept thing I don't think he will change anything that is not necessary. He once stated that he started doing this libraries because he always wanted them to exist (and I always wanted it too) so I think he's mainly doing this for himself and he don't want to do something that he doesn't like to play.

I think he will use KS only if it cannot do otherwise and even if I don't like KS anymore it is better to have KS for pizzicato and col legno alone than having "spiccato", "spiccatissimo", "super spiccato", "a little bit less spiccato but still spiccato", "staccato", "staccatissimo", "tremolo", "tremolissimo" and so on for every single note millisecond change that you would like to do in your composition. You would spend more time programming KS than writing music.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Ethnic instruments would be truly amazing. I recently obtained two Duduk instruments for Kontakt, both of them free and I must say I love the sound of those. The JADE Ethnic Orchestra that was announced this week also has some beautiful instruments!



He expressed a desire to add all kinds of ethnic instruments to the winds. And the list did sound delicious.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> He expressed a desire to add all kinds of ethnic instruments to the winds. And the list did sound delicious.


All kinds of awesomeness!


----------



## Harald

Any release date for the strings ?


----------



## DANIELE

Harald said:


> Any release date for the strings ?



We don't know anything about it. Aaron don't want pressure caused by release dates, he always said that once it is ready he will announce and release it.

We could only guess that in 2020 we will se it.

Maybe it is ready but this misterious issue has blocked all the libraries/updates.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jonathan Moray said:


> I would guess that the ensemble patches are either multis or a single patch with the strings just compiled in it,



No sir, I asked him about the progress on Infinite Strings via email and, among other things, he said "I haven't recorded the ensembles yet". Unless he encounters some enormous hurdle that even his brain can't solve, I think we'll be getting true ensemble patches. Probably very processed and tuned like our other Infinite instruments, but sampled ensembles nonetheless. I still have my concerns about the concept of an Infinite Strings library, but simulated ensembles isn't one of them.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

El Buhdai said:


> No sir, I asked him about the progress on Infinite Strings via email and, among other things, he said "I haven't recorded the ensembles yet". Unless he encounters some enormous hurdle that even his brain can't solve, I think we'll be getting true ensemble patches. Probably very processed and tuned like our other Infinite instruments, but sampled ensembles nonetheless.



Thanks for the info. That's most interesting that he will record ensembles. It's the first I've heard of it.



aaronventure said:


> That's the idea.
> 
> 16 violins = 16 individual notes for autodivisi.





aaronventure said:


> Yes. And strings will be 60 individual instruments as well (well, 65 if you count the first chairs).







El Buhdai said:


> I still have my concerns about the concept of an Infinite Strings library, but simulated ensembles isn't one of them.



It wouldn't be simulated ensembles. It would be a true X piece ensemble where every player tunes to each other since there are actually X individual players. So if you play a spiccato every player is a little bit off in timing, pitch, timbre, etc. It would make it the most realistic. But more options are always welcome. Side note: SM is a simulated ensemble, meaning not a separate note for each player.

It's going to be very interesting to see what he comes up with Aaron seems like a real smart guy so I'm not worried at all. I just have never heard of a way to do what he does (as far as I know what he does since he's using some proprietary technology) with ensembles and sound as good as it does with solos.


----------



## Sean J

To those interested in my post about tone... I do have the exports from my friend and this morning I recreated a comparable Spitfire performance, but haven't got around to actually touching the mix yet. I want to give it proper attention, but some family things are delaying me a bit. Will post soon. Just wanted to post an update as I said I'd reply on here earlier today.

For now, I do want to add one quick thing...

Holy crap... doing an Infinite Brass demo and recreating the same demo with Spitfire afterward... very revealing. Having to tweak from staccato, marcato, tenuto, staccatissimo, and sustain in place of tenuto in some cases (just to get it to sound right)... even the mod-wheel took more work cause of inconsistencies in the samples. With infinite, I programmed a piano-roll version (not played in live) and left the modwheel untouched, except for a sfz that obviously needed it. Performance-wise, it's a joke how much less effort it takes to use Infinite. Brilliant.

Anyway, I'll be back later. But I couldn't help but say how dramatic the difference was. Utterly insane. That alone impresses me so much.


----------



## El Buhdai

Yup, that's Infinite! 

Lose a bit of tone, save a bunch of time.

And as a bonus, have a lot more fun!


----------



## Sean J

So... about my last post. It wasn't sufficient. Not at all.

I CANNOT understate how much additional effort had to be put into getting Spitfire to get a good result. It wasn't just the performance. Tweaking the expression map lane, the modwheel, velocities on certain notes cause the velocity layers go from slightly "bomp" sound to "BWAACK!!!" in only one velocity value. It was the altering both volume and modwheel simultaneously to find the right balance that gave a timbre and volume that sounded natural for that specific performance. I had to do this with both the Tuba and Horn.

Mind you, I'm accustomed to doing it. But only after playing with infinite and going back, am I realizing just how much I've been living in a dark abyss of MIDI programming instead of composing. It's ugly. Spitfire's humanizing also makes it hard to get a crisp performance without tweaking every patch, track, etc. Volume problems, timing problems, a beautiful beautiful hall, and problems.

Infinite took one pass. I could have improved it with mod-wheel tweaking, but didn't feel I needed to. I edited a few velocities... a few... just a few. I was short on time to boot. Thing is... it just worked and it worked beautifully.

Sorry, after struggling with this horn for as long as I did, I had to post again. It's too big a difference in the libraries to not address. The performance agility of IB isn't just in what it can perform, but in how much time is wasted in trying to compensate for all the libraries that really can't perform.


----------



## Sean J

This A/B came out pretty well, but I should say I've had much better results when doing everything on the same computer. The first time I played with IB & IW, I did a quick match on each instrument to Spitfire just to see, including all octaves and piano/forte. It's all very convincing. The Tuba here is less ideal as I chose to use Cubase's EQ so anyone could recreate it. But it's still closer than a raw A/B by far.

Hook - Soundcloud Demo

1. 0:01 = IB Studio IR
2. 0:24 = IB + Verb (minimal)
3. 0:47 = IB + Gullfoss (a little airy) (screenshot 1)
4. 0:12 = IB + EQ + Gullfoss w/ restricted range (screenshot 2 & 3)
5. 1:35 = Spitfire
6. 1:55 = IB #4 + Spitfire

First Contact - Soundcloud Demo

1. 0:01 = IB
2. 0:22 = IB + EQ + Gullfoss (screenshot 4)
3. 0:45 = Spitfire
4. 1:06 = IB #2 + Spitfire
5. 1:24 = Harmony example
6. 1:37 = forte IB
7. 1:52 = forte Spitfire

Screenshots:


















Anyway, this was a lot rougher demo than I wanted to put together. But IMHO, it's still enough to show that the tone can be worked with and made to be comparable. Different instruments in different rooms will always have a unique character. But the overall tone for the sake of balancing the entire sound... I find to be very satisfactory. It also blends very well with Spitfire, for anyone interested in that. Eventually, when I get the libraries I'd like to make a mock-up (with much more precise EQ'ing) of some pieces to really push the library. I have no doubt it can put out some truly awesome mock-ups.


----------



## shawnsingh

scoredfilms said:


> But only after playing with infinite and going back, am I realizing just how much I've been living in a dark abyss of MIDI programming instead of composing.



This has been on my mind a lot lately. I've had glimpses of scenarios where I've been able to record a MIDI performance in just a few takes that gets me 90% of the way complete, and only need a brief fix-it pass through the MIDI to finish it off. Infinite Brass among a few other libraries have been like that. I'm now trying harder to set up "performance combo patches" as my keyswitches instead of individual articulations. But with IB even the concept of articulations gets reduced.

All this makes me believe that this is going to be the next big trend in sample libraries. It's no longer enough to have "deeply sampled articulations" and some basic scripted legato transitions and release trails. Instead, "deeply scripted" is the next big thing. To make things naturally playable with only a few MIDI controls, while still getting as much realism as possible in one take, and yet still providing the ability to post-fix the MIDI performance to our heart's content.

I'm excited for the Infinite Series, and looking forward to where it will go =)


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> I CANNOT understate how much additional effort had to be put into getting Spitfire to get a good result. It wasn't just the performance. Tweaking the expression map lane, the modwheel, velocities on certain notes cause the velocity layers go from slightly "bomp" sound to "BWAACK!!!" in only one velocity value. It was the altering both volume and modwheel simultaneously to find the right balance that gave a timbre and volume that sounded natural for that specific performance. I had to do this with both the Tuba and Horn.
> 
> Mind you, I'm accustomed to doing it. But only after playing with infinite and going back, am I realizing just how much I've been living in a dark abyss of MIDI programming instead of composing. It's ugly. Spitfire's humanizing also makes it hard to get a crisp performance without tweaking every patch, track, etc. Volume problems, timing problems, a beautiful beautiful hall, and problems.



I cannot go back anymore, I only use these instruments and I deleted almost any "old style" library from my template. I'm having so much fun playing with Infinite Libraries and SM ones. There is always room for improvement, it is not about the tone, it is about how much you are able to use these libraries the right way.


----------



## Harald

scoredfilms said:


> This A/B came out pretty well, but I should say I've had much better results when doing everything on the same computer. The first time I played with IB & IW, I did a quick match on each instrument to Spitfire just to see, including all octaves and piano/forte. It's all very convincing. The Tuba here is less ideal as I chose to use Cubase's EQ so anyone could recreate it. But it's still closer than a raw A/B by far.
> 
> Hook - Soundcloud Demo
> ...
> First Contact - Soundcloud Demo
> ...



First contact demo has no link.
Concerning the hook demo, are you able to reproduce the "cracks" or "pops" (sry don't know the name) of the tuba with IB ?
I feel it's lacking, to make a better comparison with spitfire's brass.

Anyway thanks for sharing!


----------



## Sean J

Harald said:


> First contact demo has no link.
> Concerning the hook demo, are you able to reproduce the "cracks" or "pops" (sry don't know the name) of the tuba with IB ?
> I feel it's lacking, to make a better comparison with spitfire's brass.
> 
> Anyway thanks for sharing!



That's definitely the right question to ask, and yes and no. Both demo url's should work now, btw.

If doing everything on the same machine, you can adjust your playing to both libraries simultaneously. Spitfire has less dynamic options, so I found it harder to match without doing it in real-time. This sounds like I'm addressing something other than what you're asking... My point is that I'd say it's easier to match the tonguing sound if playing them together. Sometimes you get a sort of 500bpm double tongue that's subtle. All brass players do it. I'd say that's more prominent in Spitfire, but both libraries are much closer in this area than in this particular demo reveals. I piano-rolled it in, which is really the wrong way to do Infinite Brass. The only reason I did is that I'd like IB to play well with notation software also. If it can do well fairly flat performance-wise (which IMHO it does), all the better.

It's also worth saying that all libraries have different dynamic range. Someone posted a dynamic chart on vi-control to compare libraries at one point. While Infinite has more granularity in it's range... the Tuba actually has a good deal less fff than Spitfire once you get above the lowest octave. The room helps to exaggerate that too, mind you. I'm a tuba snob. Infinite generally has pp to ff better than most, but not all instruments will obviously match up exactly. It's still a recording, after all. I read that he manipulates overtones in this area (or something?) so maybe he can tweak it...?

I also found my original Kontakt preset I took of my initial tuba test. I save presets like crazy, but only saved the Tuba for now. Once I get the library, I plan on doing a much more thorough job of this on every instrument. This had slightly too much low end by comparison, but was still very comparable. I share it because I was doing a Spitfire A/B on the same machine playing both simultaneously when I was using this preset.







I know Hans Zimmer tweaks percussion envelopes to emphasize the attack and manage the amount of room/tail... instead of transient plugins which distort the sound. Spitfire reminds me of that. The close mics and tree mics together pronounce the attack more. I didn't edit the modwheel at all mind you, but I wonder if that would have helped my demo sound more poppy.


----------



## El Buhdai

I have to be honest. While I loved what you did with the Tuba's mix, I'm not a fan of the EQ curve for the horn. It produced a lot of resonance in the lower end on my headphones and removed a lot of the instrument's definition. That sound could definitely work if you're going for a large orchestral sort of sound and want the horn to sound like it's near the back. I would just tame the resonance a bit and add a touch more reverb. I don't really mix the horns at all though. As a former player, I find their tone (the soloists anyway) to be fairly close to the real thing out of the box. The horn section needs a bit of tweaking to get a more natural sound though.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> I have to be honest. While I loved what you did with the Tuba's mix, I'm not a fan of the EQ curve for the horn. It produced a lot of resonance in the lower end on my headphones and removed a lot of the instrument's definition. That sound could definitely work if you're going for a large orchestral sort of sound and want the horn to sound like it's near the back. I would just tame the resonance a bit and add a touch more reverb. I don't really mix the horns at all though. As a former player, I find their tone (the soloists anyway) to be fairly close to the real thing out of the box. The horn section needs a bit of tweaking to get a more natural sound though.



lol, well... I agree.

I did two exports at first: one I liked, then I did another with the mentality that I said it could closely match Spitfire. The one I liked was much less rich, more subtle changes, etc. On the matching Spitfire, I did a software match and an ear one. At first I added a low shelf and noticed a resonant problem around 34hz. It's basically like someone's gently tapping a bass drum on every note attack.* I decided to lower the shelf a bit, but still keep it fairly rich. My goal there wasn't to suggesting using these settings, but to say it can be in the same ballpark as Spitfire. I suppose someone could use it as a starting point, but I also agree the horns sound great out of box already.

The only problem I have with the default tone is the horn attack is far too bright to use in many cases. For a small room, fine. But larger spaces are going to emphasize the low end more. That's something that IMHO, convolution doesn't accurately handle. My 'final horn' would probably have some taming around 1500hz and not much else. Out of box, I can't stop playing Siegfried with it. It definitely has a good tone already.

*To be fair, Orchestral Tools have low-end issues on higher horn octaves. The problems are far worse than anything here. Spitfire has imperfections, but not excessive freq problems. Infinite needs tweaking on most instruments, but is also a lot less problematic to tweak than many libraries I've used. VSL is far less tweakable for tone than Infinite. So I agree with you, but it's still at least a flexible library that way.

The "poppy" point early is better live, but IMHO that's the weakest area of the library in terms of flexibility. Flute attacks are too forced. His breath noise for flutes should probably follow the same sine as the vibrato does... as airflow is key here. Some instruments sound unnaturally static when sustained. One could argue it should be controlled constantly, but for as many issues as I've had with Spitfire's humanize... the overall character of their libraries is human enough that it avoided a lot of MIDI work compared to VSL. So I still think Venture can improve. But the good news is, I think the ways he can improve are the ways he's already trying to.

Anyway, I just want to clarify that these examples can absolutely improve. I just wanted to highlight that the tone of the library shouldn't be a problem, especially in relation to using the library for that 'Hollywood sound'. 

In the end, I'll put up all my presets. And if anyone can improve them, I'd love more ears on it. Ultimately, I don't care about safeguarding a template. I just want these libraries to do the best they can. It's great to see innovation coming this far. I'd hate to see it slowed by people giving criticisms based on expecting it to sound like their current samples.


----------



## Sean J

AGH!

Sorry, but I messed up the chain in the horn demo. I left an extra EQ on. You heard the same curve, but much more exaggerated than what I was hearing myself. Here's a fixed example (just Infinite+EQ vs Spitfire).

I also did a trumpet example here.

I initially opted to exclude the trumpet, as any EQ'ing I was trying ended up being very minimal. But I just thought to include it for anyone comparing the two libraries. It's the same format. Infinite, Infinite+EQ, Spitfire... then...

I've been playing with my own take on the James Bond theme, so I included a few bars from my goofing off for no reason at all, other than that those bars always get me hyped. Since I was a kid, it's has always been an addictive theme for me.

I'll try not to spam the thread as much now.


----------



## axb312

Are the comparisons volume matched?


----------



## Sean J

axb312 said:


> Are the comparisons volume matched?



Yes, but Spitfire is less consistent with some notes, making it hard to match volume honestly. I felt the best way to demo them accurately was this...

1) If I cheated, using a different articulation to get the performance right, I edited volumes to make it sound natural if needed.

2) But I DIDN'T edit volumes for a note that stuck out on its own. Both First Contact horn demos have 0 mod-w or volume changes.

I roughly matched gain by ear as any kind of measuring of levels won't really be accurate with Spitfire's random note exceptions. Aaron does need more humanizing of the character of each instrument, but his library also excels for being clean, not sloppy or sluggish or so random to be a problem. It sounds like a professional is playing it. Spitfire has tons of character, but I was once chastised a bit on vi-control for saying it's no good to have a beautiful hall if the cellist sounds like they're playing while drunk. To be fair, I've written KSP scripts and know it may not actually be Spitfire, or entirely.

I intend on using Infinite with a Wind Controller in the end. I'd rather have a responsive instrument as I'll add the character it needs. I prefer that to tediously fixing issues with various notes here and there.


----------



## aaronventure

Alright, I can see it's getting pretty rowdy in here with lots of speculation. I'm glad Jonathan quoted my earlier posts to clear up some of it regarding strings. Thanks, Jonathan!

I'm sorry for the Brass 1.4 delay, that one's on me (while it was out of my hands, I also chose to get involved in the first place; I'll chalk that one up to inexperience in dealing with big concert venues). The update is 100% launching in March.

I also appreciate Sean's efforts to improve Brass 1.3.1 with an EQ, although I'm afraid you'll need a bit more than that 🙃.

I'll leave you with a quick performance of Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man. It's a piece for brass and percussion, so you can hear the whole ensemble clearly (percussion is not Infinite). Out-of-the-box, only mild compression and tape on the master.



This performance took me less than 3 hours (includes learning the lines), although I believe I could've done it in 2 if I were able to read notation faster.

And this performance by John Williams is the recording that was referenced.


You can be the judge of how close it is. I took a bit of freedom there towards the end, and I used standard brass seating, while in the Pops recording the trombones are somewhere on the left.

Of course, Infinite Brass has always let you do that if you wanted to, and now there's a fancy new interface for it as well. Functionality-wise it's the same—click on the position menu, then click on one of the spots. I feel this is a much better experience, as this lets you visualize how the sound will appear in your stereo field instead of just picking an item from a drop-down menu.






That's all I'll tease for now. More soon. Stay awesome, folks!


----------



## decredis

aaronventure said:


> The update is 100% launching in March.


Well this is very exciting. IB 1.4 is now odds-on favourite to beat world war and climate catastrophe, and has a good chance of beating extinction by coronavirus too. Can't wait! 

Whatever happens, the apocalypse will be soundtracked in a remarkably flexible and memory-efficient way.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Alright, I can see it's getting pretty rowdy in here with lots of speculation. I'm glad Jonathan quoted my earlier posts to clear up some of it regarding strings. Thanks, Jonathan!
> 
> I'm sorry for the Brass 1.4 delay, that one's on me (while it was out of my hands, I also chose to get involved in the first place; I'll chalk that one up to inexperience in dealing with big concert venues). The update is 100% launching in March.
> 
> I also appreciate Sean's efforts to improve Brass 1.3.1 with an EQ, although I'm afraid you'll need a bit more than that 🙃.
> 
> I'll leave you with a quick performance of Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man. It's a piece for brass and percussion, so you can hear the whole ensemble clearly (percussion is not Infinite). Out-of-the-box, only mild compression and tape on the master.
> 
> 
> 
> This performance took me less than 3 hours (includes learning the lines), although I believe I could've done it in 2 if I were able to read notation faster.
> 
> And this performance by John Williams is the recording that was referenced.
> 
> 
> You can be the judge of how close it is. I took a bit of freedom there towards the end, and I used a standard brass seating, while in the Pops recording the trombones are somewhere on the left.
> 
> Of course, Infinite Brass has always let you do that if you wanted to, and now there's a fancy new interface for it as well. Functionality-wise it's the same—click on the position menu, then click on one of the spots. I feel this is a much better experience, as this lets you visualize how the sound will appear in your stereo field instead of just picking an item from a drop-down menu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's all I'll tease for now. More soon. Stay awesome, folks!




Superb mate. Is this medium hall? Sounds fantastic!


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Alright, I can see it's getting pretty rowdy in here with lots of speculation. I'm glad Jonathan quoted my earlier posts to clear up some of it regarding strings. Thanks, Jonathan!
> 
> I'm sorry for the Brass 1.4 delay, that one's on me (while it was out of my hands, I also chose to get involved in the first place; I'll chalk that one up to inexperience in dealing with big concert venues). The update is 100% launching in March.
> 
> I also appreciate Sean's efforts to improve Brass 1.3.1 with an EQ, although I'm afraid you'll need a bit more than that 🙃.
> 
> I'll leave you with a quick performance of Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man. It's a piece for brass and percussion, so you can hear the whole ensemble clearly (percussion is not Infinite). Out-of-the-box, only mild compression and tape on the master.
> 
> 
> 
> This performance took me less than 3 hours (includes learning the lines), although I believe I could've done it in 2 if I were able to read notation faster.
> 
> And this performance by John Williams is the recording that was referenced.
> 
> 
> You can be the judge of how close it is. I took a bit of freedom there towards the end, and I used a standard brass seating, while in the Pops recording the trombones are somewhere on the left.
> 
> Of course, Infinite Brass has always let you do that if you wanted to, and now there's a fancy new interface for it as well. Functionality-wise it's the same—click on the position menu, then click on one of the spots. I feel this is a much better experience, as this lets you visualize how the sound will appear in your stereo field instead of just picking an item from a drop-down menu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's all I'll tease for now. More soon. Stay awesome, folks!




It sounds really great, I can hear the differences from 1.3.1 even if this version is already pretty good.

I love the new interface, what are the spots on both the sides?

Great to hear that the update will be released in march. Can't wait to listen to the strings.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Hi Aaron! nice to see you again on this forum. Your demo sounds great! I think we should dig a little lower mid to get even closer to the version led by John Williams but your version brings a nice roundness. The new interface promises to be very pleasant (especially if you are moving towards a more "flat design" style as it seems to be). My imperfect command of English (as well as Google translation) does not allow me to understand these few lines from Aaron:

I'm sorry for the Brass 1.4 delay, that one's on me (while it was out of my hands, I also chose to get involved in the first place; I'll chalk that one up to inexperience in dealing with big concert venues) . The update is 100% launching in March.

Thank you to those who will bring me some light on this


----------



## DANIELE

pierrevigneron said:


> Hi Aaron! nice to see you again on this forum. Your demo sounds great! I think we should dig a little lower mid to get even closer to the version led by John Williams but your version brings a nice roundness. The new interface promises to be very pleasant (especially if you are moving towards a more "flat design" style as it seems to be). My imperfect command of English (as well as Google translation) does not allow me to understand these few lines from Aaron:
> 
> I'm sorry for the Brass 1.4 delay, that one's on me (while it was out of my hands, I also chose to get involved in the first place; I'll chalk that one up to inexperience in dealing with big concert venues) . The update is 100% launching in March.
> 
> Thank you to those who will bring me some light on this



The meaning is that the update is launching in march. That's all that matters. 

Jokes aside, I think he is saying that the fault of this delay is in part caused by him in the first place, mainly due to his inexperience in dealing with something regarding concert places, this could means that the issue is caused by some signed reverb hall he put in this new update (like someone was speculating a while ago).


----------



## pierrevigneron

DANIELE said:


> Jokes aside, I think he is saying that the fault of this delay is in part caused by him in the first place, mainly due to his inexperience in dealing with something regarding concert places, this could mean that the issue is caused by some signed reverb hall he put in this new update.


OK ... How can I blame someone as perfectionist as Aaron (especially for our own sake) ?! ^^


----------



## pierrevigneron

what I can hear from Sean's demos as well as what I see myself on infinite woodwinds is that we get a slightly more precise sound (this only engages me of course) by reducing the stereo width


----------



## Harald

Demo is nice but isn't the tuba lacking some bass (sample at 2:02)?
Is this related to compression?


----------



## Sean J

pierrevigneron said:


> what I can hear from Sean's demos as well as what I see myself on infinite woodwinds is that we get a slightly more precise sound (this only engages me of course) by reducing the stereo width



My current non-Infinite template was A/B'd to Raiders of the Lost then very slightly leaned toward a concert hall sound for the brass. Then I'd adjust width. It makes for a versatile studio/concert template. I found raider's to be very clear and precise that way.



aaronventure said:


> I also appreciate Sean's efforts to improve Brass 1.3.1 with an EQ, although I'm afraid you'll need a bit more than that 🙃.



Well yeah....... I'll obviously need to get a bundle with 1.4 AND don't overlook that I'll need you to release the string samples to REALLY get a good feel for this.  (clearly) I imagine more bundles will happen by then. But can I wait? That long? Definitely not.

Love the interface.


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> My current non-Infinite template was A/B'd to Raiders of the Lost then very slightly leaned toward a concert hall sound for the brass. Then I'd adjust width. It makes for a versatile studio/concert template. I found raider's to be very clear and precise that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Well yeah....... I'll obviously need to get a bundle with 1.4 AND don't overlook that I'll need you to release the string samples to REALLY get a good feel for this.  (clearly) I imagine more bundles will happen by then. But can I wait? That long? Definitely not.
> 
> Love the interface.



You should buy it without so much thinking about it. Once the strings will be out every previous libraries owner will have a discount, it should be the same of buying the bundle with the strings too.

At least this has been so far.


----------



## Sean J

DANIELE said:


> You should buy it without so much thinking about it. Once the strings will be out every previous libraries owner will have a discount, it should be the same of buying the bundle with the strings too.
> 
> At least this has been so far.



I'm not debating Infinite. Someone wanting my help offered me a financial deal in the form of new samples. Infinite happens next month. I'm also going 100% mobile and never looking back, so I've been getting Gullfoss, u-he Satin, Surface Book 2, wind controller, etc. My goal is that while I wait (very impatiently), I want to fine-tune a template. So if anyone has had great results with Infinite with any particular method or plugin, I'm definitely interested.

Composing at the park w/ a Surface Book, wind controller, and Infinite. What composer could want more than that?


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> I'm not debating Infinite. Someone wanting my help offered me a financial deal in the form of new samples. Infinite happens next month. I'm also going 100% mobile and never looking back, so I've been getting Gullfoss, u-he Satin, Surface Book 2, wind controller, etc. My goal is that while I wait (very impatiently), I want to fine-tune a template. So if anyone has had great results with Infinite with any particular method or plugin, I'm definitely interested.
> 
> Composing at the park w/ a Surface Book, wind controller, and Infinite. What composer could want more than that?



I just finished working on a soundtrack that will be out once the movie will be, in the mean time I'm working on a "for fun" track that I hope to post soon. I'm using precedence and breeze with infinite libraries and sm strings. Once IS will be out I'll merge this with SM Strings to have more choice for strings.

For brass and woodwinds I'm already using Infinite only. My template needs some more tweaking for sure but I'm very satisfied with the results.


----------



## El Buhdai

Ah yes, Aaron closes the gap in tone even more while maintaining the same top-of-the-line flexibility. Just more confirmation that I invested in the right libraries.

I can't wait for this update.


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> Ah yes, Aaron closes the gap in tone even more while maintaining the same top-of-the-line flexibility. Just more confirmation that I invested in the right libraries.
> 
> I can't wait for this update.


I can't wait to grab Infinite Brass. I only have Woodwinds atm, and it is GREAT!


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> I can't wait to grab Infinite Brass. I only have Woodwinds atm, and it is GREAT!



I highly recommend it. 1.3.1 is a very solid foundation, but from the sound of that demo, 1.4 will fix most if not all of my gripes with the sound of the instruments in the current library.

I assume you're waiting for the sale that comes with the update. In that case, I think I speak for all of us when I say we can't wait to welcome you into the Infinite Family and we hope you love the libraries!

P.S: The mutes are awesome.


----------



## doctoremmet

Yes, I am waiting to get my hands on Brass 1.4 and take advantage of the sale as well as the bundle benefits, since I already have IW. Then later this year no doubt IS will follow.


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> Yes, I am waiting to get my hands on Brass 1.4 and take advantage of the sale as well as the bundle benefits, since I already have IW. Then later this year no doubt IS will follow.



I certainly hope we get Infinite Strings this year! I think it's entirely possible for it to follow IB 1.4 and a potential IW update, but the updates would likely be a few months apart. So if we get Infinite Strings this year, I think it'll be in summer at the absolute earliest, but likely fall unless he made significant progress on them during the wait for this update.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I certainly hope we get Infinite Strings this year! I think it's entirely possible for it to follow IB 1.4 and a potential IW update, but the updates would likely be a few months apart. So if we get Infinite Strings this year, I think it'll be in summer at the absolute earliest, but likely fall unless he made significant progress on them during the wait for this update.



Remember that the 1.4 update is ready for some time now, so it is already working on WW update and Strings, but we are here only guessing.

I hope he doesn't still have to do some recording session because with this COVID-19 everything is closed or it will be.


----------



## Sean J

DANIELE said:


> I hope he doesn't still have to do some recording session because with this COVID-19 everything is closed or it will be.



You keep posting the exact thoughts that enter my mind every day...

This one is usually followed by "naw... everything's fine... Infinite Strings will happen. Everything's fine. It's probably already recorded. He doesn't need 50 people in one room anyway. COVID will end and the era of Infinite will live on. Everything's fine... The world can't end anyway. Infinite Recorders hasn't happened yet, so the virus will have to wait."


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> You keep posting the exact thoughts that enter my mind every day...
> 
> This one is usually followed by "naw... everything's fine... Infinite Strings will happen. Everything's fine. It's probably already recorded. He doesn't need 50 people in one room anyway. COVID will end and the era of Infinite will live on. Everything's fine... The world can't end anyway. Infinite Recorders hasn't happened yet, so the virus will have to wait."



Obviously the first, very important thing is the health of Aaron, before every library, for himself.

Sooner or later all the activities touched by the virus will have to pause, as I said before I don't know where Aaron lives but it seems that the virus is spreading everywere like expected so it really doesn't matter.

It isn't the end of the world but this disease will impact on everything and will cause many delays for sure. I hope that Aaron will not be interested by this problems, for his life first.
I'm going at work actually, since my boss needs me. Here in Italy we are feeling the problem every day. We all are hoping for this to end but I think we'll have to wait for a long time.

About recording if they are starting to apply the emergency state like here in Italy you shouldn't be in the same room even with only one another.

Everything will go on after this but now we have to face it and I hope you will not experience what we are experiencing right now.


----------



## Sean J

Italy... yeah.

Seeing the impact saddens me. The U.S. is large and lacks the immediacy of culture diversity Europe has... so most lack a view of the world being larger than themselves. I can at least say I've been lucky enough to visit Italy and more of Europe. I was just touristing like an idiot back then, but going really taught me to value meeting people as much as meeting their history.

I hope you stay in good health. The world needs Italy. We certainly need Italian composers.  Rossini often keeps me sane.

Infinite Brass... William Tell. Yeah, that needs to happen.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> The U.S. is large and lacks the immediacy of culture diversity Europe has... so most lack a view of the world being larger than themselves.



This is so true. I know it's easy for folks from other countries to dump all over Americans, but we deserve it because so many of us are so, so self-centered in a way that you don't find with people from most other countries. COVID-19 hasn't changed that either. 

When my university closed because of the rapid spread of the virus in my state, a bunch of the students from my college decided to try to take a spring break vacation in another state with no regard for the fact that they could have the virus and not even know they're spreading it due to its tremendous incubation period. 

Just typical American selfishness. All I can do is apologize on behalf of all the people from my country when people bring it up. So, on behalf of my fellow Americans, I'm sorry.


----------



## pierrevigneron

what is amazing with this covid19 is that nations seem to suddenly realize that it is finally possible to regulate the markets, to work less, to let the planet breathe, to be vigilant concerning the fauna and flora and to participate in a united surge across all nations which seems not to have been the case for decades. our trench president in a very solemn speech said there will be a before and an after we will be drawing the consequences of that,... all the consequences ... I hope this awareness for a more united and respectful world


----------



## DANIELE

pierrevigneron said:


> what is amazing with this covid19 is that nations seem to suddenly realize that it is finally possible to regulate the markets, to work less, to let the planet breathe, to be vigilant concerning the fauna and flora and to participate in a united surge across all nations which seems not to have been the case for decades. our trench president in a very solemn speech said there will be a before and an after we will be drawing the consequences of that,... all the consequences ... I hope this awareness for a more united and respectful world



I thought the same but as alway someone will learn from this, some others not. 

I'm already seeing it.


----------



## Sean J

We just had a 5.7 earthquake a few hours ago. I woke up and grabbed my daughter out of her crib while the house was still shaking. 5.7 isn't the biggest (though did make quite a mess) and we're all fine. But if you guys feel like people panic over COVID-19 where you live... can you imagine our grocery stores tonight!? HA!!

Actually, most people I know here are pretty calm. Our state has a long-standing obsession with scouting, food storage, and emergency prep. There's more worry than panic. But there's also hope. I'm actually pretty optimistic right now. Disasters and pandemics happen, but for the vast masses that go on... we go on. I'm home, my daughter is safe, and I can still compose. I'm still luckier than most people who have ever lived on this planet. Heck, I'm on VI-Control already. (maybe that speaks to forum addiction.......... no, probably not.....)

When storms come, best to focus on doing things needing doing. The future is what we make of it. May as well make it better.


----------



## Sean J

And sorry, don't meant to further derail the topic...


----------



## Montisquirrel

I know, Corona is a serious topic, but has it to be everywhere? Even in my favorite VI-Control thread? Please everybody stay on topic, there are other threads on this forum for corona..


----------



## DANIELE

Montisquirrel said:


> I know, Corona is a serious topic, but has it to be everywhere? Even in my favorite VI-Control thread? Please everybody stay on topic, there are other threads on this forum for corona..



The virus is spreading even in the threads...

Anyway, just because I'm seeing what is happening in my country, I was talking about it relatively to the situation that we may experience in waiting for the libraries. I'm sorry to be the cause of this OT. Let's go back to talking about infinite.


----------



## doctoremmet

scoredfilms said:


> We just had a 5.7 earthquake a few hours ago. I woke up and grabbed my daughter out of her crib while the house was still shaking. 5.7 isn't the biggest (though did make quite a mess) and we're all fine. But if you guys feel like people panic over COVID-19 where you live... can you imagine our grocery stores tonight!? HA!!
> 
> Actually, most people I know here are pretty calm. Our state has a long-standing obsession with scouting, food storage, and emergency prep. There's more worry than panic. But there's also hope. I'm actually pretty optimistic right now. Disasters and pandemics happen, but for the vast masses that go on... we go on. I'm home, my daughter is safe, and I can still compose. I'm still luckier than most people who have ever lived on this planet. Heck, I'm on VI-Control already. (maybe that speaks to forum addiction.......... no, probably not.....)
> 
> When storms come, best to focus on doing things needing doing. The future is what we make of it. May as well make it better.


Hang in there....


----------



## tmpc

El Buhdai said:


> This is so true. I know it's easy for folks from other countries to dump all over Americans, but we deserve it because so many of us are so, so self-centered in a way that you don't find with people from most other countries. COVID-19 hasn't changed that either.
> 
> When my university closed because of the rapid spread of the virus in my state, a bunch of the students from my college decided to try to take a spring break vacation in another state with no regard for the fact that they could have the virus and not even know they're spreading it due to its tremendous incubation period.
> 
> Just typical American selfishness. All I can do is apologize on behalf of all the people from my country when people bring it up. So, on behalf of my fellow Americans, I'm sorry.


You don't have to apologize for me, I love the USA. It's done more good around the world than most other countries.


----------



## I like music

Alright. Now we're in danger of this going super political. This thread has been great because it has remained good natured and informative (about samples etc)

Hopefully we can get back to that. 

Aaron, April is very close! Hoping you can release it before April Fools Day!


----------



## tmpc

scoredfilms said:


> Italy... yeah.
> 
> Seeing the impact saddens me. The U.S. is large and lacks the immediacy of culture diversity Europe has... so most lack a view of the world being larger than themselves. I can at least say I've been lucky enough to visit Italy and more of Europe. I was just touristing like an idiot back then, but going really taught me to value meeting people as much as meeting their history.
> 
> I hope you stay in good health. The world needs Italy. We certainly need Italian composers.  Rossini often keeps me sane.
> 
> Infinite Brass... William Tell. Yeah, that needs to happen.


Europe and the US are different. The "immediacy of cultural diversity" is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. That depends on the particular individuals. You're right, the US is a large country. Large enough to protect itself AND Europe. Its happened before and I'm sure it will happen again.


----------



## tmpc

I like music said:


> Alright. Now we're in danger of this going super political. This thread has been great because it has remained good natured and informative (about samples etc)
> 
> Hopefully we can get back to that.
> 
> Aaron, April is very close! Hoping you can release it before April Fools Day!


Not political. I'm simply providing a different opinion concerning the people of the US. What? There are no selfish people in Europe? Really?


----------



## I like music

tmpc said:


> Not political. I'm simply providing a different opinion concerning the people of the US. What? There are no selfish people in Europe? Really?


Hey! I said absolutely nothing about Europe or the US. Just that this thread was veering off course.

Worth having the debate but elsewhere. I quite liked this thread as it kept focus on a small bit talented developer. Now it is going other places.


----------



## tmpc

I like music said:


> Hey! I said absolutely nothing about Europe or the US. Just that this thread was veering off course.


I agree. But why didn't you say that after the original comments? That's when it started veering.


----------



## I like music

Sure. Sometimes threads veer and come back. Only recently I realised that the comments were starting to look like they may take a life of their own.

We good to carry on with library discussion and shit jokes/puns? I reckon so. 

BTW I'm assuming you have some interest in the library? Pretty damn good.


----------



## tmpc

REALLY good! And Aaron is a very knowledgeable, generous, and helpful person. He turned me onto control via Leap Motion. It has quite literally changed the way I do certain things . . . not just with his library. The combination of an Infinite library, Leap Motion controller, and Bidule is amazing.


----------



## I like music

tmpc said:


> REALLY good! And Aaron is a very knowledgeable, generous, and helpful person. He turned me onto control via Leap Motion. It has quite literally changed the way I do certain things . . . not just with his library. The combination of an Infinite library, Leap Motion controller, and Bidule is amazing.


Was always a bit skeptical of leap motion. But I'm not a play-it-in person (latency on my machine + shit at playing... I panic when I hear a metronome!) . So I have to draw it all in. But I can completely see why with a library like this it makes sense!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

tmpc said:


> REALLY good! And Aaron is a very knowledgeable, generous, and helpful person. He turned me onto control via Leap Motion. It has quite literally changed the way I do certain things . . . not just with his library. The combination of an Infinite library, Leap Motion controller, and Bidule is amazing.



I've actually been thinking about Leap Motion. It's a nice concept, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I've never had the privilege to try it. Anything else you can add? I would suppose it works great with AV and SM.

You got any small test you've made with it and Infinite that you want to share?


----------



## tmpc

First, I should also mention the GECO app that converts Leap's data to MIDI. GECO is a great app, but I found it lacking in some ways that made the Leap hard to use. When I first got the Leap, my initial reaction was that I would never be able to use it. But, I stuck with it and used Bidule to "fix" its shortcomings. It can "read" many different hand motions; some better than others. So, you have to spend time with it to see which motions work well for you. The other thing is that I found that certain motions just made sense to me for certain things. I spent over a month honing my system.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I've actually been thinking about Leap Motion. It's a nice concept, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I've never had the privilege to try it. Anything else you can add? I would suppose it works great with AV and SM.
> 
> You got any small test you've made with it and Infinite that you want to share?





tmpc said:


> First, I should also mention the GECO app that converts Leap's data to MIDI. GECO is a great app, but I found it lacking in some ways that made the Leap hard to use. When I first got the Leap, my initial reaction was that I would never be able to use it. But, I stuck with it and used Bidule to "fix" its shortcomings. It can "read" many different hand motions; some better than others. So, you have to spend time with it to see which motions work well for you. The other thing is that I found that certain motions just made sense to me for certain things. I spent over a month honing my system.


Looks tiring on the arm!


----------



## tmpc

Jonathan Moray said:


> I've actually been thinking about Leap Motion. It's a nice concept, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I've never had the privilege to try it. Anything else you can add? I would suppose it works great with AV and SM.
> 
> You got any small test you've made with it and Infinite that you want to share?


I had heard about years before, but when I started trying to wrangle IB, I realized that I needed to do something different to really get the most out of it. I got talking to Aaron about controlling IB and he said he used the Leap/GECO on his and I guess other libraries. I also use Soniccouture's Ondes Martinot library and found that the Leap/GECO combo solved my control problems there.


----------



## tmpc

I like music said:


> Looks tiring on the arm!


Not at all. I'm 63 years old, and if I can do it, you can do it . . . unless you're 64. 

It really has been a game changer for me, but it does require an investment in time. It's not the kind of thing you just walk up to and use effectively right off the bat. If it wasn't for Aaron I wouldn't have tried it. One of the best things about it is generating vibrato by hand like a Theremin. It sounds much more natural than anything else, but was only possible to do (at least for me) due to the Bidule post processing of the Leap/GECO MIDI data. I love it.


----------



## I like music

tmpc said:


> Not at all. I'm 63 years old, and if I can do it, you can do it . . . unless you're 64.
> 
> It really has been a game changer for me, but it does require an investment in time. It's not the kind of thing you just walk up to and use effectively right off the bat. If it wasn't for Aaron I wouldn't have tried it. One of the best things about it is generating vibrato by hand like a Theremin. It sounds much more natural than anything else, but was only possible to do (at least for me) due to the Bidule post processing of the Leap/GECO MIDI data. I love it.


34 but feeling 70 today. After a long while I started doing proper rehab on my bad knee. And today was a leg day so the prospect of any further exercise, even minimal movement like on the leap motion, scares me. 

Will keep it in mind though. Could be super useful on my sample modeling strings which have SO many cc parameters that need tweaking...


----------



## Sean J

tmpc said:


> Not political. I'm simply providing a different opinion concerning the people of the US. What? There are no selfish people in Europe? Really?



I don't mind a thread veering a little... though I did help it go farther, so I apologize. I'll say just this once that I meant nothing negative about any country. There's good and bad everywhere. I'm sure we all agree on that, despite how things come across online.

As for the Leap controller...

I've opted for a TEControl instead. Breath makes more sense for me given my experience. Has anyone used a breath controller with Infinite? One of the main reasons I'm going the TEControl route is that you can adjust the output curve to have min/max values and with presets for different instruments. With various libraries, sometimes the top of an instrument's range isn't as convincing to me. I've noticed it with the Infinite flutes, some Berlin instruments, etc. I wonder how such fine-tuning functionality would compare to the Leap experience. ???


----------



## tmpc

I like music said:


> 34 but feeling 70 today. After a long while I started doing proper rehab on my bad knee. And today was a leg day so the prospect of any further exercise, even minimal movement like on the leap motion, scares me.
> 
> Will keep it in mind though. Could be super useful on my sample modeling strings which have SO many cc parameters that need tweaking...


Yeah, I have a bad knee as well, but . . . well, you know.

As far as I know, Aaron uses just the Leap and GECO, so I know it's possible. But, for me, Bidule is indispensable. I couldn't use Leap/GECO the way I do without it. The combo is just so damn much fun to play.


----------



## tmpc

scoredfilms said:


> I don't mind a thread veering a little as it's natural enough in any real convo... though I did help it go farther, so I apologize. I'll say just this once that I meant nothing negative about any country by my remarks. Our cultural landscape is different, which comes with pros and cons, like anywhere. There's good people everywhere. Selfish behavior exists everywhere. I'm sure we all agree on that, despite how things come across in our mere online posts.


No problem.


scoredfilms said:


> As for the Leap controller, I've opted for a TEControl instead. Breath makes more sense for me given my experience. Has anyone used a breath controller with Infinite? One of the main reasons I'm going the TEControl route is that you can adjust the output curve to have min/max values and with presets for different instruments. With various libraries, sometimes the top of an instrument's range isn't as convincing to me. I've noticed it with the Infinite flutes, some Berlin instruments, etc. I wonder how such fine-tuning functionality would compare to the Leap experience. ???


The funny thing is that I bought one of those right before getting IB and talking with Aaron. I tried working with it for a while, but it just didn't feel right to me, and the head nod control made me look too agreeable.  If there is anything I've learned about alternate controllers is that one persons "greatest thing ever" is another persons "huh?"

With both of these controllers (and others) pitch bend was the hardest thing to control. Unipolar controls aren't that tough because one end is your resting place. But, it's just too damn easy to drift into a slight pitch bend if the dead zone isn't wide enough. I couldn't set the dead band wide enough or flat enough on either GECO or TEControl's app. That is one of the areas where Bidule saved the day for me.


----------



## DANIELE

tmpc said:


> No problem.
> 
> The funny thing is that I bought one of those right before getting IB and talking with Aaron. I tried working with it for a while, but it just didn't feel right to me, and the head nod control made me look too agreeable.  If there is anything I've learned about alternate controllers is that one persons "greatest thing ever" is another persons "huh?"
> 
> With both of these controllers (and others) pitch bend was the hardest thing to control. Unipolar controls aren't that tough because one end is your resting place. But, it's just too damn easy to drift into a slight pitch bend if the dead zone isn't wide enough. I couldn't set the dead band wide enough or flat enough on either GECO or TEControl's app. That is one of the areas where Bidule saved the day for me.



I have a TEC breath controller and I almost using the breath and the bite only for now, as I like music I'm not so good at playing but I must say that when I can use it the results are so better.

My goal is to bring the automation writing at the same level of recording. The way to go is to study the shapes that help you to get the sound you want.


----------



## Sean J

tmpc said:


> the head nod control made me look too agreeable.



But that could be a powerful ally to get you out of something you previously agreed to.  Oh... um... I was just recording again.



DANIELE said:


> My goal is to bring the automation writing at the same level of recording.



Well crap...

$300 AKAI Wind Controller
* U.S. Amazon (TEC is europe, the travel ban includes shipping)
* AKAI is bad w/ Win10. TEC seems to have useful software
* AKAI is very mobile friendly for playing notes in at the same time

The vibrato rate and intensity sliders in Infinite are nice, but I think I'd be fine doing that afterward. As you've used TEC, would Breathe & Note-input simultaneously be enough to satisfy you with Infinite or no? With multiple people loving wind controllers and multiple people loving Leap, and the list above, it's a tough call for me. I've never had such a controller, and plan on getting one only for the sake of how versatile Infinite is.

Anyone using other types of expression controllers with Infinite? (non-fader/modw)


----------



## El Buhdai

tmpc said:


> You don't have to apologize for me, I love the USA. It's done more good around the world than most other countries.



If you're very, _very_ selective about which aspects of America's global influence that you choose to acknowledge, then sure I guess you can draw that conclusion. I'll leave it there though.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> Anyone using other types of expression controllers with Infinite? (non-fader/modw)



I'm very interested in how the TEC expression controller performs with these libraries and whether or not I should purchase one.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> ...I'm not a play-it-in person... So I have to draw it all in.



Same here. Put me on a pipe organ and I'll improv a baroque invention right now. My improv skills, when I'm practicing them often, are much stronger than my sight-reading. But with orchestral writing, I tend to be a slow deliberate writer. It's thought through, auditioned, etc. I value both as informing/creative in different ways and (for me) for different styles of music. My workflow, MIDI controllers, recent app purchases, are intended to balance out both approaches into one workflow. I'm going to slow-write parts, and Infinite is going to make it possible for me to improv other parts (and finally be happy with the realism of a MIDI instrument doing improv).

That certainly says something about the value of these libraries.


----------



## DANIELE

Well I could say this: if I could be a better player I cannot miss a tool like this, at all!! With Infinite libraries performs very very very good, it is a necessary tool for me. I couldn't bring out all the beauty from infinite without it, I spend hours only playing infinite libraries with the breath controller to experiment new techniques or to find some good themes.


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> Same here. Put me on a pipe organ and I'll improv a baroque invention right now. My improv skills, when I'm practicing them often, are much stronger than my sight-reading. But with orchestral writing, I tend to be a slow deliberate writer. It's thought through, auditioned, etc. I value both as informing/creative in different ways and (for me) for different styles of music. My workflow, MIDI controllers, recent app purchases, are intended to balance out both approaches into one workflow. I'm going to slow-write parts, and Infinite is going to make it possible for me to improv other parts (and finally be happy with the realism of a MIDI instrument doing improv).
> 
> That certainly says something about the value of these libraries.



Agreed. To be fair, I don't get to spend much time writing any music at all! But when I do (next few weeks might allow for that after years of only having a couple of hours a week) I will experiment with different workflows.

I just don't feel I could ever get a _final_ rendition or performance by playing it in, no matter how good I was. I'd still want to micro-tweak those ccs. And if I'm doing that, I may as well just put those in after I draw the note. Gives me more control.

... when I get to write music, that is!


----------



## tmpc

scoredfilms said:


> Well crap...
> 
> $300 AKAI Wind Controller
> * U.S. Amazon (TEC is europe, the travel ban includes shipping)
> * AKAI is bad w/ Win10. TEC seems to have useful software
> * AKAI is very mobile friendly for playing notes in at the same time
> 
> The vibrato rate and intensity sliders in Infinite are nice, but I think I'd be fine doing that afterward. As you've used TEC, would Breathe & Note-input simultaneously be enough to satisfy you with Infinite or no? With multiple people loving wind controllers and multiple people loving Leap, and the list above, it's a tough call for me. I've never had such a controller, and plan on getting one only for the sake of how versatile Infinite is.


Well, I paid $221 for the TEC vs $90 (from Adafruit) for the Leap. The GECO software was free, but I paid the developer $20 for it to support further development (it was $10 back when it was being sold on Leap's now defunct store). So the Leap/GECO solution is half the cost. One thing to keep in mind here is that the GECO app is barely supported and you must use an older version of the Leap app. I have a dual computer setup using a 2012 MacBook Pro running OS X 10.11 and an HP zBook running Win 10. For me, the Leap/GECO apps ran better on the PC. So, be aware that if you go down the Leap/GECO path, you will be living in "old software" land. This doesn't bother me, but it does bother some people.


----------



## tmpc

DANIELE said:


> I have a TEC breath controller and I almost using the breath and the bite only for now, as I like music I'm not so good at playing but I must say that when I can use it the results are so better.
> 
> My goal is to bring the automation writing at the same level of recording. The way to go is to study the shapes that help you to get the sound you want.


That's the thing. You can take read all of these opinions about different controllers, but you really do have to just try different ones to see which one feels right to you. But, although I am very curious about a Roli Seaboard, I would never spend that kind of money to find out if I like it.


----------



## tmpc

El Buhdai said:


> If you're very, _very_ selective about which aspects of America's global influence that you choose to acknowledge, then sure I guess you can draw that conclusion. I'll leave it there though.


You don't really have to be that selective . . . and I'll leave it there.


----------



## tmpc

I like music said:


> I just don't feel I could ever get a _final_ rendition or performance by playing it in, no matter how good I was. I'd still want to micro-tweak those ccs. And if I'm doing that, I may as well just put those in after I draw the note. Gives me more control.


Hey, you're not alone. I hardly ever play things in exactly the way I want them, but I find that sometimes it is the only way to get the feel right. This is especially true for oddball rhythms and harmonies.


----------



## tmpc

DANIELE said:


> I couldn't bring out all the beauty from infinite without it, I spend hours only playing infinite libraries with the breath controller to experiment new techniques or to find some good themes.


I know exactly what you mean.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Still no one to compare infinite brass and sample modeling / audio modeling? :(


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I just don't feel I could ever get a _final_ rendition or performance by playing it in, no matter how good I was. I'd still want to micro-tweak those ccs. And if I'm doing that, I may as well just put those in after I draw the note. Gives me more control.



I know how you feel, I feel the same but yesterday (for example) I recorded a simple cellos 8 measures theme, the dynamics was so god I couldn't stop listening to it. It probably would have taken me much longer to do this by hands.

You could always tweak those CCs after you recorded them.

To make the things easier you could record free parts to experiment with the instruments, then you could look at them to understand what kind of shapes sound well and what other not.



tmpc said:


> That's the thing. You can take read all of these opinions about different controllers, but you really do have to just try different ones to see which one feels right to you. But, although I am very curious about a Roli Seaboard, I would never spend that kind of money to find out if I like it.



I'm also curious about Roli but since I'm not a good player I fear I couldn't use it well enough.

The breath is much more instinctive, think about it! When you sing in the shower you modulate the dynamics with your voice, so basically it is air that is passing through your vocal cords.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

the roli is really easy, I didn't find it difficult at all


----------



## tmpc

DANIELE said:


> The breath is much more instinctive, think about it! When you sing in the shower you modulate the dynamics with your voice, so basically it is air that is passing through your vocal cords.


Not for me it wasn't. Pushing a key down and blowing into a tube to create one sound just feels weird to me. That doesn't make you wrong, it's just the nature of things; we don't all do things the same way.


----------



## tmpc

ProfoundSilence said:


> the roli is really easy, I didn't find it difficult at all


Did you get a chance to play it before you bought it?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

tmpc said:


> Did you get a chance to play it before you bought it?


no


----------



## tmpc

Well, I'm happy it worked out for you.


----------



## Harald

pierrevigneron said:


> Still no one to compare infinite brass and sample modeling / audio modeling? :(



I'm also waiting for that.
Here you can find tests of AM, SM and spitfire symphonic brass. I know it's off topic but it might interest you.
Still waiting for the tests even if I did a 180° turn and I'm now trying Dorico with note performer =)

p.s: si tu es en France, bon courage avec le confinement !


----------



## ProfoundSilence

tmpc said:


> Well, I'm happy it worked out for you.


it's honestly wayyyy overblown how "difficult" it is... I honestly could not understand how anyone had an issue with it unless they were deaf. 

that said, I'm an atrocious keyboard player - and if anything classically trained pianists seem to be the ones who have the most trouble, maybe they are just so well trained it's hard to adjust their technique


----------



## tmpc

ProfoundSilence said:


> it's honestly wayyyy overblown how "difficult" it is... I honestly could not understand how anyone had an issue with it unless they were deaf.


I've never heard that it's difficult to use. I believe I've heard complaints about parts of the playing surface wearing out, but other than that what I've heard has been positive. It's just soooo expensive!

Outside of synths, it must be hard to find libraries that can deal with the continuous slide. Has that been your experience?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

tmpc said:


> I've never heard that it's difficult to use. I believe I've heard complaints about parts of the playing surface wearing out, but other than that what I've heard has been positive. It's just soooo expensive!
> 
> Outside of synths, it must be hard to find libraries that can deal with the continuous slide. Has that been your experience?


it works off pitch bend, so whatever the max pitch bend is you can switch the roli. 

i.e. for SampleModeling you switch the roli to a +/- 2 setting - and then you can only slide up/down up to a whole step. some programs have higher pitch bend ranges, so you just set the roli to +/- 12 or 48.


----------



## I like music

Just had a freakout that when Aaron said it'll be released in March, he hadn't specified 2020...


----------



## pierrevigneron

Harald said:


> I'm also waiting for that.
> Here you can find tests of AM, SM and spitfire symphonic brass. I know it's off topic but it might interest you.
> Still waiting for the tests even if I did a 180° turn and I'm now trying Dorico with note performer =)
> 
> p.s: si tu es en France, bon courage avec le confinement !



Yes I live in the Paris region, thank you ProfoundSilence  If IB is as flexible as the sample modeling or swam instruments with, in addition, positioning in space, then I take out my credit card ^^ But time that I don 've not heard any comparisons difficult to decide. In absolute terms, I find IB very very good, I just want to try to save a little by not buying VIs which risk duplicating those I already have. Whatever happens I am very interested in what Aaron offers and since the first time I heard, a little by chance, a demo on his site.


----------



## decredis

pierrevigneron said:


> If IB is as flexible as the sample modeling or swam instruments with, in addition, positioning in space, then I take out my credit card ^^


Would it be fair to say (I base this on comparing IW with SWAM flutes and, more unfairly, SM violin) that Infinite series is as flexible in terms of agile performance—including articulation as an emergent function of continuously controlled parameters—but that it deliberately 'curates' the parameters that can be used to control detail of timbre... so that SWAM and SM might allow you more flexible choice of distinct timbres, but also as a result of this there is more room for you to go 'wrong' with your choices in SWAM and SM than in Infinite?


----------



## pierrevigneron

Thank you for your interesting link. Besides, I sent some demos inspired by the first minutes of this video. I will be curious that you give me your opinions in comparison with the same example of the video (it's the first minutes)


----------



## pierrevigneron

I don't find Swam very convincing (cf the link given by Profoundsilence) compared to sample modeling


----------



## x-dfo

As a prospective buyer - does anyone have any videos capturing the workflow for the libraries? That's my main question, and since they don't do demos (yet), I'd love to 'watch over someone's shoulder' as they work with the infinite stuff.


----------



## El Buhdai

x-dfo said:


> As a prospective buyer - does anyone have any videos capturing the workflow for the libraries? That's my main question, and since they don't do demos (yet), I'd love to 'watch over someone's shoulder' as they work with the infinite stuff.



There's not really a 'workflow' in the way you're thinking. You just open it, pick your settings, and play/program your lines, and then use CC to bring them to life (usually just dynamics and vibrato intensity unless you want more control or you're trying to get maximum expression from a solo line) I'm not sure what you hope to discover about the workflow that you can't already glean from the walkthrough videos.

The only thing different about this library compared to other libraries you might own is that you never have to return to the instrument to find which note a keyswitch is on, and you don't have to go and spend significant time adjusting each individual note for timing like you have to do with CSS' legato.


----------



## mohsohsenshi

x-dfo said:


> As a prospective buyer - does anyone have any videos capturing the workflow for the libraries? That's my main question, and since they don't do demos (yet), I'd love to 'watch over someone's shoulder' as they work with the infinite stuff.



I think this will be enough to show how it works:


----------



## El Buhdai

mohsohsenshi said:


> I think this will be enough to show how it works:




One thing to note is that the default positions of the instruments sound very different from the positions I set them to even if you're using the same Medium Hall. For some reason there's a lot less bite and dirt on the default positions (the ones with Center Left or Center Right) than the ones that are just plain right or left. I can send audio examples of what I mean if anyone wants it because it's hard to describe.

So to anyone who buys the library, I'd recommend you spend some time in the beginning going through the positions for each instrument and see what sounds best for your ensemble.


----------



## x-dfo

mohsohsenshi said:


> I think this will be enough to show how it works:



So that's using modwheel as a kind of tremolo in addition to just dynamics? I've never played any woodwinds so all those parameters are a little unfamiliar. Do patches take care of some of that confusion, like if I want a trill, is that something that a patch takes care of or is that all done by hand?


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> So that's using modwheel as a kind of tremolo in addition to just dynamics? I've never played any woodwinds so all those parameters are a little unfamiliar. Do patches take care of some of that confusion, like if I want a trill, is that something that a patch takes care of or is that all done by hand?



You would literally trill the notes as if you would on a flute 
Hold one note down and then press/release the one above etc.


----------



## x-dfo

I like music said:


> You would literally trill the notes as if you would on a flute
> Hold one note down and then press/release the one above etc.


That's... too impossible for me to comprehend.


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> That's... too impossible for me to comprehend.


You mean you don't believe it'd sound good? To be fair, sampled trills feel like one of those things where presampled ones are impossible to beat in sound. 

However, this allows you to trill during a phrase convincingly, if you know what I mean


----------



## x-dfo

I like music said:


> You mean you don't believe it'd sound good? To be fair, sampled trills feel like one of those things where presampled ones are impossible to beat in sound.
> 
> However, this allows you to trill during a phrase convincingly, if you know what I mean


lol no, like how can a sampled instrument be performed so easily without keyswitch, fumbling through patches etc.


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> lol no, like how can a sampled instrument be performed so easily without keyswitch, fumbling through patches etc.


A good time to be alive (as far as VIs are concerned)


----------



## mohsohsenshi

x-dfo said:


> So that's using modwheel as a kind of tremolo in addition to just dynamics? I've never played any woodwinds so all those parameters are a little unfamiliar. Do patches take care of some of that confusion, like if I want a trill, is that something that a patch takes care of or is that all done by hand?




There are 7 parameters to shape your sound and articulations:
Dynamics: crescendo , swell , fortepiano, sforzato
Flutter: double tongue (the "tremolo" of woodwind)
Growl: dirtiness of a note (another type of "tremolo")
Vibrato intensity : sustained note with/without vibrato
Vibrato rate: speed of vibrato
Attack range/time : fade in 

sustained, staccato, legato, trill are played as they are on the keyboard.
For common articulations, you only need the mod wheel and pitch bend. For special effects, you have to assign extra CC control to those parameters.


----------



## x-dfo

So how does an ensemble work? do I literally need 3 french horns, 2 bass trombones, 1 trombone, 2 flutes and an oboe (etc just making up an example) as channels?


----------



## mohsohsenshi

x-dfo said:


> So how does an ensemble work? do I literally need 3 french horns, 2 bass trombones, 1 trombone, 2 flutes and an oboe (etc just making up an example) as channels?



Yes, you build up an ensemble exactly as they are in an orchestra.
At 17:40


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> So how does an ensemble work? do I literally need 3 french horns, 2 bass trombones, 1 trombone, 2 flutes and an oboe (etc just making up an example) as channels?



Correct. That said, I've found that even if you routed things so that all of the patches that were loaded up, played together, it still sounds pretty good to me!


----------



## x-dfo

I like music said:


> Correct. That said, I've found that even if you routed things so that all of the patches that were loaded up, played together, it still sounds pretty good to me!


Does it have any ensemble humanization (not that I'm expecting it) just curious if 2 trumpets playing the same note sounds passable.


----------



## aaronventure

x-dfo said:


> Does it have any ensemble humanization (not that I'm expecting it) just curious if 2 trumpets playing the same note sounds passable.


Infinite Brass 1.4 brings this to the table. It will be added to Woodwinds with the next update. 

While you're still best off performing each instrument individually, this really does sound good (see Fanfare demo a few pages back), especially if you bury it in the mix (softer playing). If you're gonna play loud and the brass is really gonna stick out, it would be in your interest to play each one of those (e.g. trumpets playing a melody at ff).


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> Does it have any ensemble humanization (not that I'm expecting it) just curious if 2 trumpets playing the same note sounds passable.



Deleted part of this post since he man himself responded. 

The best part of the library is the way the notes release, to my ear. Aaron did some magic with convolution and tails to bring a realistic randomness to the note ends. And in this area it is the most realistic feel I've had in all my libraries.


----------



## tmpc

And, let's not forget the continuous change in dynamics/tone. You can always hear the crossfades with "regular" libraries.


----------



## El Buhdai

tmpc said:


> And, let's not forget the continuous change in dynamics/tone. You can always hear the crossfades with "regular" libraries.



Yeah, this was one of the biggest selling points for me, especially for the brass section.


----------



## Harald

pierrevigneron said:


> Thank you for your interesting link. Besides, I sent some demos inspired by the first minutes of this video. I will be curious that you give me your opinions in comparison with the same example of the video (it's the first minutes)



I think you took me for ProfondSlience who posted above me. I'm the one who gave you the link :D
I'm not a brass player, nor do I go often to listen to symphonies, so I cannot judge which one sounds the best or realistic.
That being said I think that SWAM lack realism, at least in this video (but I found in others also).
Nevertheless, in your brass demo I hear a noise, something like wind over a mic at 0:29. 
Is that a prob in IB or on your side ?


----------



## x-dfo

So I dove in and got the woodwinds, wow, what a revelation! The only thing I don't quite get is at soft velocities the legato becomes a slide whistle portamento - is there a way to fudge with the velocity response affecting legato times?


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> So I dove in and got the woodwinds, wow, what a revelation! The only thing I don't quite get is at soft velocities the legato becomes a slide whistle portamento - is there a way to fudge with the velocity response affecting legato times?


Brass in my opinion even better. Also love that oboe. Great expressiveness.


----------



## El Buhdai

x-dfo said:


> So I dove in and got the woodwinds, wow, what a revelation! The only thing I don't quite get is at soft velocities the legato becomes a slide whistle portamento - is there a way to fudge with the velocity response affecting legato times?



I assume you're talking about the Clarinet. I love this feature (if you're reading this Aaron, don't remove it!). This is designed to allow you to perform portamento slides similar to what you find in Big Band music. As far as I know, almost no other orchestral woodwinds library lets you do that.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Brass in my opinion even better. Also love that oboe. Great expressiveness.



I agree and disagree. I find that more of the instruments in the woodwind are usable from a tone perspective (I can use everything exposed except the Flutes and English Horn), but on the other hand, the best instruments in the series imo is in Infinite Brass with the French Horns and rhe Euphoniums

I also bought Infinite Woodwinds first because it's harder to find a highly consistent, solid woodwinds library. Unfortunately, our woodfriends are often an afterthought for library developers and composers alike. Great brass libraries seem to be everywhere though.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I agree and disagree. I find that more of the instruments in the woodwind are usable from a tone perspective (I can use everything exposed except the Flutes and English Horn), but on the other hand, the best instruments in the series imo is in Infinite Brass with the French Horns and rhe Euphoniums
> 
> I also bought Infinite Woodwinds first because it's harder to find a highly consistent, solid woodwinds library. Unfortunately, our woodfriends are often an afterthought for library developers and composers alike. Great brass libraries seem to be everywhere though.


100 percent agrees on the FH. SUPERB instrument!


----------



## x-dfo

El Buhdai said:


> I agree and disagree. I find that more of the instruments in the woodwind are usable from a tone perspective (I can use everything exposed except the Flutes and English Horn), but on the other hand, the best instruments in the series imo is in Infinite Brass with the French Horns and rhe Euphoniums
> 
> I also bought Infinite Woodwinds first because it's harder to find a highly consistent, solid woodwinds library. Unfortunately, our woodfriends are often an afterthought for library developers and composers alike. Great brass libraries seem to be everywhere though.


That's exactly why I started with woodwinds, it kills any GAS related to woodwind libraries which all seem amazingly incosistent.


----------



## decredis

x-dfo said:


> So I dove in and got the woodwinds, wow, what a revelation! The only thing I don't quite get is at soft velocities the legato becomes a slide whistle portamento - is there a way to fudge with the velocity response affecting legato times?


I find the extreme portamentos difficult to work with too... I've taken to using the Kontakt factory KSP script Transform->Change Velocity to avoid low velocities for me in the clarinet family (and also to an extent in the flutes) as I don't think there's anything inside the IW gui itself to do this. (Ideally I'd like the portamentos to be available but with something in the IW gui to change how they're accessed and at which velocities and how extreme they are.)


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> I find the extreme portamentos difficult to work with too... I've taken to using the Kontakt factory KSP script Transform->Change Velocity to avoid low velocities for me in the clarinet family (and also to an extent in the flutes) as I don't think there's anything inside the IW gui itself to do this. (Ideally I'd like the portamentos to be available but with something in the IW gui to change how they're accessed and at which velocities and how extreme they are.)



I think the best thing to do would be for Aaron to add a simple toggle to all the instruments in the flute and clarinet family. Outside of the slides, there are more than enough transition speeds for those instruments so being able to toggle off the portamento wouldn't really harm expressiveness of those instruments. I don't play my parts in since I can't play keyboard, so this doesn't bother me, but I can understand how it may hurt the workflow of those with keyboard talent.


----------



## El Buhdai

x-dfo said:


> That's exactly why I started with woodwinds, it kills any GAS related to woodwind libraries which all seem amazingly incosistent.



It's a real shame isn't it? I'm just hoping we can get the woodwinds update fairly soon after IB 1.4 so I can invite the English Horn back into my compositions without having to scoop one up from Hollywood Woodwinds.


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> I think the best thing to do would be for Aaron to add a simple toggle to all the instruments in the flute and clarinet family. Outside of the slides, there are more than enough transition speeds for those instruments so being able to toggle off the portamento wouldn't really harm expressiveness of those instruments. I don't play my parts in since I can't play keyboard, so this doesn't bother me, but I can understand how it may hurt the workflow of those with keyboard talent.


Yes a toggle and/or maybe an option to have a CC control the extent of the portamento (as currently is controlled by how far below the portamento threshold the velocity falls).

EDIT: I appreciate that part of the design of the Infinite series is the simplicity of required inputs, so I guess he might not want to clutter it up with too many options, but, well, it's an option I want.


----------



## x-dfo

decredis said:


> Yes a toggle and/or maybe an option to have a CC control the extent of the portamento (as currently is controlled by how far below the portamento threshold the velocity falls).
> 
> EDIT: I appreciate that part of the design of the Infinite series is the simplicity of required inputs, so I guess he might not want to clutter it up with too many options, but, well, it's an option I want.


Oh yeah the playability still wins out over a portamento gripe, my feature request would be to have a legato speed min/max. I want legatos at low velocity that aren't, well, a slide whistle.


----------



## x-dfo

My radikal accelerator synth also has a chromatic portamento option that could do autoruns in the infinite series... hint hint.


----------



## aaronventure

x-dfo said:


> legato speed min/max


This has been requested by multiple users and will be in Infinite Brass 1.4 (and, thus, the next Woodwinds update).


----------



## x-dfo

aaronventure said:


> This has been requested by multiple users and will be in Infinite Brass 1.4 (and, thus, the next Woodwinds update).


Hah apologies for the added noise then


----------



## Sean J

I like port on lower velocities, especially if vel affects speed.

Yes, I ran into times were I triggered it on accident. I was on a great keyboard that made it easy to adjust my playing though. I thought to try a multiscript, but unnecessary template tweaks I prefer to avoid. I'd rather just adapt. GUI clutter is probably the worst thing Aaron could do to a UI that's beautifully simplistic... especially as it's a solid part of what makes his libraries so much more effective. A toggle between velocity or fader might be the best answer, but I respect devs making libraries for themselves as much as they do for their users.

As few of faders as possible. That's my input.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> GUI clutter is probably the worst thing Aaron could do to a UI that's beautifully simplistic...
> As few of faders as possible. That's my input.



Having more options on the GUI would have virtually no effect on the "plug-n-play" nature of the instruments if the default settings reflect what the majority of users would want. Even if they don't, clicking a toggle takes a fraction of a second.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

El Buhdai said:


> Having more options on the GUI would have virtually no effect on the "plug-n-play" nature of the instruments if the default settings reflect what the majority of users would want. Even if they don't, clicking a toggle takes a fraction of a second.


as long as it's not clicking through like 10 pages(sample modeling)


----------



## DANIELE

I personally love to have as many options as possible. The main things you need are dynamics and vibrato the you can adjust many other things if you like to, if you don't you could always leave them untouched.

I only recently started to use the other controllers and I love them, the air one for IW flutes for example, very very useful in many ways.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Having more options on the GUI would have virtually no effect on the "plug-n-play" nature of the instruments if the default settings reflect what the majority of users would want. Even if they don't, clicking a toggle takes a fraction of a second.



More "options" (reverb, pan, etc) doesn't inherently hurt the playability, but more playback sliders does.

If Aaron scripted vibrato rate (just rate) to behave on it's own unless overridden (more like a Spitfire/Berlin outcome)... sure, that would be more 'out of box' right in many cases. That seems to fit your majority default mentality. VI-Pro 2 is a brilliant sampler with a cockpit of a GUI. Their presets suck, so I made my own that copy Spitfire/Berlin features and responsiveness. Even then, the GUI is still a cockpit whenever I opt to get into it.

You're half right. _Moving your finger_ only takes a fraction of a second. But with an array of sliders, it takes more time to think about what to adjust to get the right result. If the Infinite trumpet had sliders for embouchure, vibrato type, etc, etc, etc. More control doesn't give you more plug-n-play because it gives you more to sort through. One of the best things about StaffPad is that you aren't wasting your life away with a sampler GUI. There isn't one. At all. It's wonderful! I was very hesitant to suggest adding a toggle before. The only reason I did was to keep the same level of plug-n-play Infinite already has.

I hate having more controls. I'd rather focus on counterpoint, orchestration, writing... not software and MIDI-programming.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> More "options" (reverb, pan, etc) doesn't inherently hurt the playability, but more playback sliders does.
> 
> If Aaron scripted vibrato rate (just rate) to behave on it's own unless overridden (more like a Spitfire/Berlin outcome)... sure, that would be more 'out of box' right in many cases. That seems to fit your majority default mentality.
> 
> You're half right. _Moving your finger_ only takes a fraction of a second. But with an array of sliders, it takes more time to think about what to adjust to get the right result. If the Infinite trumpet had sliders for embouchure, vibrato type, etc, etc, etc. More control doesn't give you more plug-n-play because it gives you more to sort through. One of the best things about StaffPad is that you aren't wasting your life away with a sampler GUI. There isn't one. At all. It's wonderful! I was very hesitant to suggest adding a toggle before. The only reason I did was to keep the same level of plug-n-play Infinite already has.



I'm confused. 

Your example with the vibrato rate controlling itself unless toggled off isn't anything like what I was talking about. Nobody's asking for sliders or knobs to control every last aspect of the performance. Of course that would go against what this library is designed for. I was just talking about one slider to allow folks to limit CC range to make avoiding portamentos easier. A feature that accomplishes this is apparently coming, though it doesn't seem to be in the form of a toggle, but potentially a knob (or more likely two) to limit the range of legato transitions.

Adding this one feature to fix something that seems to bother so many people won't necessarily lead to a slippery slope of having arrays of controls that you have to sift through just to get up and running. It's just one (or two) extra buttons to make things easier on people who naturally play softly. They're not really requesting anything more.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Adding this one feature ... won't necessarily lead to a slippery slope of having arrays of controls...



Well... just one or two now plus one or two in a year... things add up. IT's how bloat happens. The vibrato was just an example. Either way, it doesn't matter.

I've changed my mind on this for the sake of trombones: 

My ideal would be this:
1. automatic vibrato rate unless overridden (maybe that's just me, but w/e)
2. a realtime portamento speed slider (from super slow to the default scripted legato speed)
3. a realtime MSB full-octave (or more) pitch slider.

2 & 3 would allow for just about any trombone passage... not just a pre-timed scripted port slide. The more the VI acts like a real person, the better for composition (thus I mentioned auto vib rate). The more it acts like a real instrument, the better it is for a live performance scenario. I suppose even for a composing workflow, there's still a balance to strike right there, given the trombone example.

I'll eat my words here. But I can't promise I won't confuse anyone more... including myself. lol


----------



## I like music

7 days till the end of March my homies.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> 7 days till the end of March my homies.


Very exciting. And, if a coronavirus lockdown doesn't prevent me moving out of airbnb into my new tenancy and getting my computer and keyboard out of storage, I might even be able to play my newly purchased brass library in another week's time.


----------



## aaronventure

scoredfilms said:


> More control doesn't give you more plug-n-play because it gives you more to sort through.


I agree. It makes you think that you have to use all of these to get the right result. I could easily make pages worth of options for all the stuff that's happening in the background. It would really help nobody; just unnecessarily complicate the end result and scare users off.



scoredfilms said:


> automatic vibrato rate unless overridden


The progressive rate ramp option is something similar. Although it still does its thing even if you move the slider, it just adjusts to whatever its current value is. It's very non-intrusive and really helps performance. It's enabled by default but anyone can disable it if they want.

Generally, the depth and the rate are separate to allow full control. It takes less than 30 seconds to map the rate to the same controller as the one used for depth, go into the MIDI automation tab and limit the Vibrato Rate controller to, say, 45–65%. That way you get slightly slower rate on lower depth value, and higher on molto vib. It's a playstyle. If it fits you, go for it.

You can create many of them through such multi-mapping schemes. Link attack range to dynamics? Why not. It has its pros and cons as well.

For performance, Infinite really shines when you have at least two controllers at hand. Or rather just a keyboard with actually good aftertouch (mine sucks), then you can have the vibrato depth/rate controller on aftertouch. Of course you can also just dial in the vibrato depth and rate (and the progressive ramp option will help you out), punch in your performance then punch in just the vib controller on top (or draw it in), but it's so nice to just play it all in live (and fast).



scoredfilms said:


> 3. a realtime MSB full-octave (or more) pitch slider.


That's just not gonna happen unless/until it becomes fully modeled. As long as it's sample based, you're limited by that, i.e. octave bends sound like crap.



I like music said:


> 7 days till the end of March my homies.


Indeed, we're right on track for the release next Tuesday. 

I think I'm finally gonna go outside for a bit once it's out. No, wait, nevermind.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> I agree. It makes you think that you have to use all of these to get the right result. I could easily make pages worth of options for all the stuff that's happening in the background. It would really help nobody; just unnecessarily complicate the end result and scare users off.
> 
> 
> The progressive rate ramp option is something similar. Although it still does its thing even if you move the slider, it just adjusts to whatever its current value is. It's very non-intrusive and really helps performance. It's enabled by default but anyone can disable it if they want.
> 
> Generally, the depth and the rate are separate to allow full control. It takes less than 30 seconds to map the rate to the same controller as the one used for depth, go into the MIDI automation tab and limit the Vibrato Rate controller to, say, 45–65%. That way you get slightly slower rate on lower depth value, and higher on molto vib. It's a playstyle. If it fits you, go for it.
> 
> You can create many of them through such multi-mapping schemes. Link attack range to dynamics? Why not. It has its pros and cons as well.
> 
> For performance, Infinite really shines when you have at least two controllers at hand. Or rather just a keyboard with actually good aftertouch (mine sucks), then you can have the vibrato depth/rate controller on aftertouch. Of course you can also just dial in the vibrato depth and rate (and the progressive ramp option will help you out), punch in your performance then punch in just the vib controller on top (or draw it in), but it's so nice to just play it all in live (and fast).
> 
> 
> That's just not gonna happen unless/until it becomes fully modeled. As long as it's sample based, you're limited by that, i.e. octave bends sound like crap.
> 
> 
> Indeed, we're right on track for the release next Tuesday.
> 
> I think I'm finally gonna go outside for a bit once it's out. No, wait, nevermind.



You were self-isolating almost as much as that CSW guy :D


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Indeed, we're right on track for the release next Tuesday.
> 
> I think I'm finally gonna go outside for a bit once it's out. No, wait, nevermind.



I know this probably means March 31st Tuesday instead of less-than-24-hours-from-now Tuesday, but I can dream.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I know this probably means March 31st Tuesday instead of less-than-24-hours-from-now Tuesday, but I can dream.



Aaron always knows how to tease us. Even now when we finally have a release date he leave us in the sea of uncertainty.

He obviously means March 31st otherwise he would have said "tomorrow".



aaronventure said:


> I think I'm finally gonna go outside for a bit once it's out. No, wait, nevermind.



So you are locked at home too...

I don't want to derail the thread again but I hope you and your family are fine.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Aaron always knows how to tease us. Even now when we finally have a release date he leave us in the sea of uncertainty.
> 
> He obviously means March 31st otherwise he would have said "tomorrow".
> 
> 
> 
> So you are locked at home too...
> 
> I don't want to derail the thread again but I hope you and your family are fine.


As long as it isn't on April fools day


----------



## Sean J

Aaron, great info. Thanks!

I should have added that I didn't find the 2 vib sliders problematic at all. I was more contemplative about what the ideal would be. I was happy leaving the controls alone with slight adjustments... but your point about multi-mapping easily suffices any needs I could have.



aaronventure said:


> [An octave pitch slider is] just not gonna happen unless/until it becomes fully modeled. As long as it's sample based, you're limited by that, i.e. octave bends sound like crap.



Yeah, but there's this Aaron Venture guy... he's like a sampling wizard. I mean, if anyone could do it... No, I get it. Even small bends can sound cheap.

I once bent a C up to a C#1, then faded the note quickly to a C# on a second track (and so on) to keep bending continuously. I suppose I wondered if your instruments could do that same kind of thing, potentially even more effectively than most libraries. Different performances of notes have imperfectly matched timbres. So I could see this not being effective either way. Even then, it's not like I've ever been used to a sample library being able to do bones fully anyway. It's not something I lose sleep over.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> As long as it isn't on April fools day



No, that's when he's releasing the String samples. Haven't you heard?


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> So you are locked at home too...
> I don't want to derail the thread again but I hope you and your family are fine.



You kind of have to be a nerd to be a composer.
You have to be a bigger nerd to be a sample library composer. That's us!
You have to be a huge nerd to be a sample library developer.

You have to be a _gargantuan_ nerd to be an orchestral composer and sample library developer that uses advanced math and deep scripting to craft highly realistic and expressive virtual instruments from completely dry samples that barely sound anything like the actual instrument that was recorded.

.. and if there's anything I know about us nerds, we're pretty good at self-isolating. 

Jokes aside though, I also hope Aaron and his family are doing well.


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> No, that's when he's releasing the String samples. Haven't you heard?


Ahhhhh it all makes sense now. Well played @aaronventure


----------



## El Buhdai

ProfoundSilence said:


> as long as it's not clicking through like 10 pages(sample modeling)



I just saw this. Why did everyone think I was asking for dozens of new controls to be added? I was talking about one setting which was already confirmed to be coming in some form with the 1.4 update anyway. 

Maybe I've gotta get better at stating my points more clearly.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Maybe I've gotta get better at stating my points more clearly.



HA! We all do. I'm better at music than being a wordsmith. But no worries, I didn't think you were talking about adding 50 things, just 1. The reason I cautioned against bloat has a lot more to do with my history with software and devs than anything you said. I've been a support manager, consulted on (and done my own) UX, UI, and dev, written my own VI's, and talked and met (in person) with developers in the music industry. I've developed opinions, habits, etc.

An opinion: Dorico tremolos are by Repeat Endings, under "Lines". For an engraver that's great. For a composer, it's confusing. I cautioned them about such things. I even suggested they replace expression maps with an online store so users could download pre-integrated libraries. I was told it was lightyears away from anything the industry is doing. A few years later, StaffPad did it. It's like "The Innovator's Dillema" and the 'job to do'. When a music dev ALSO composes... you get the best results. Aaron created Infinite for himself. That's why it's good. When coding for other people and trying to please a crowd, Frankensteining features is a common issue. It's not that adding a single fader was bad. It's that I'd want to think about 5 or 6 faders that one could want, then ask how many could simply be done automatically under the hood. For me, that keeps the UI focused on composing, the real job at hand.

Anyway, AV and StaffPad are at the top of my "must back them" list precisely because of how aligned their goals are with mine and without the bloat. I was literally told "okay, move on" after loading Aaron's trumpet. I couldn't stop improvising with it.... like a real trumpet. Out-of-box authenticity really brings out the writing... a lot. I'll have my wind controller in a week, soon the libraries, then I won't be able to shut up. At least it will be music instead of words though.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> HA! We all do. I'm better at music than being a wordsmith. But no worries, I didn't think you were talking about adding 50 things, just 1. The reason I cautioned against bloat has a lot more to do with my history with software and devs than anything you said. I've been a support manager, consulted on (and done my own) UX, UI, and dev, written my own VI's, and talked and met (in person) with developers in the music industry. I've developed opinions, habits, etc.
> 
> I was literally told "okay, move on" after loading Aaron's trumpet. I couldn't stop improvising with it.... like a real trumpet.



Ah, I see. You've got more than enough experience to be concerned about where this could have been headed. Understandable for sure.

As for the trumpet, what made you connect with it so much? It's one of my least favorite instruments in Infinite Brass 1.3 so I'd love to know what I might be missing.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Ah, I see. You've got more than enough experience to be concerned about where this could have been headed. Understandable for sure.



Right, and everyone else has experience too. Just depends on what we're all aiming for in the end.



El Buhdai said:


> As for the trumpet, what made you connect with it so much? It's one of my least favorite instruments in Infinite Brass 1.3 so I'd love to know what I might be missing.



I played trumpet for 4 years. IB's trumpet isn't without limits (no VI seems to live up to Maynard Ferguson's agility), but it felt authentic and responsive to me at least. Tubas on fast staccato passages get a bit sloppy with a sort of instant double staccato. All brass do to a point. Too clean an attack loses this kind of character. That and more fff in spots might help IB, especially low brass and even trumpet. I'm not sure. Not all attacks should be super clean at least. Then again, I feel like that's nit picking to extremes. 1.3 is insanely impressive to me and 1.4 is coming. There's clear improvements in that Copland demo.

Maybe I just have a case of liking the girl so much that pretend not to hear when she says she hates music. Infinite was love at first listen for me. The extremely consistent dynamics and granularity of dynamics and short note lengths. Who couldn't fall in love?


----------



## shawnsingh

scoredfilms said:


> Tubas on fast staccato passages get a bit sloppy with a sort of instant double staccato. All brass do to a point.



Just to clarify, you're saying this about real brass, right?


----------



## aaronventure

scoredfilms said:


> no VI seems to live up to Maynard Ferguson's agility


Here's what you can expect in 1.4.

The bends weren't performed live (I'm not _that _good), I penned them in manually after recording the notes. And they're more than a semitone, so I had to use the pitch knob (in the instrument control panel in Kontakt).

Here's the MIDI screenshot





Also, it's the default concert position on the right, not up close and in-your-face (the whole sound is like when you load it up the first time). Overall took me just a few minutes to do this (so I never have problems with posting examples on demand).

I'm glad you're liking 1.3.1 but the difference compared to 1.4 is night and day. Across the entire library, not just the trumpets


----------



## Nicola74

Really can't wait


----------



## DANIELE

Nicola74 said:


> Really can't wait



Same.

The last day of March we will finally have 1.4 for brass, after a long waiting.


----------



## decredis

I've just been made redundant from one of my two jobs due to coronavirus lockdown but *nothing* is going to stop me buying IB1.4 after all this time goddammit. #priorities


----------



## doctoremmet

Sad to hear that, but I can totally relate to that. I do now own IB yet, but do have IW. And I am psyched to get it next week!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I allow myself to give my opinion concerning the exchanges mentioned above concerning the options, page of parameters etc ... Personally I like the compromise therefore the ideal for me would be a clear and simple interface (as already proposed) but with a small icon that would allow you to look a little under the hood. For example being able to define a vibrato rate seems interesting to me, or even why not a rate automatically linked to the tempo (to add a good feeling of playing in context). Beyond the control on the vibrato and a glide limiter, and what already exists, I don't see anything to add ^^


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> I've just been made redundant from one of my two jobs due to coronavirus lockdown but *nothing* is going to stop me buying IB1.4 after all this time goddammit. #priorities



I'm sorry to hear that. Stay strong, and I hope you get other work.

I imagine a good number of us will face redundancy before this is over.


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. Stay strong, and I hope you get other work.
> 
> I imagine a good number of us will face redundancy before this is over.





decredis said:


> I've just been made redundant from one of my two jobs due to coronavirus lockdown but *nothing* is going to stop me buying IB1.4 after all this time goddammit. #priorities


It is better than losing someone ... It may be the opportunity to find an even more interesting job


----------



## Sean J

shawnsingh said:


> Just to clarify, you're saying this about real brass, right?



Yup



aaronventure said:


> Here's what you can expect in 1.4.
> ...
> I'm glad you're liking 1.3.1 but the difference compared to 1.4 is night and day. Across the entire library, not just the trumpets



HAHAHA!!
Sean: No VI can Maynard
Aaron: You sure about that?

1.4 definitely sounds great. You could have said you re-recorded and rewrote everything. Definitely a night and day difference.


----------



## Sean J

decredis said:


> I've just been made redundant from one of my two jobs due to coronavirus lockdown but *nothing* is going to stop me buying IB1.4 after all this time goddammit. #priorities



I like your priorities and share pierre's point... There's usually a better job out there. It takes attempts to find it, but it's there. Life has opportunities. May as well look for them rather than staying put. When forced out, may as well make the most of it and find something even better. 

I mean, if it was a choice between having food to eat and Infinite... of course I'd get the samples.


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Here's what you can expect in 1.4.
> 
> The bends weren't performed live (I'm not _that _good), I penned them in manually after recording the notes. And they're more than a semitone, so I had to use the pitch knob (in the instrument control panel in Kontakt).
> 
> Here's the MIDI screenshot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, it's the default concert position on the right, not up close and in-your-face (the whole sound is like when you load it up the first time). Overall took me just a few minutes to do this (so I never have problems with posting examples on demand).
> 
> I'm glad you're liking 1.3.1 but the difference compared to 1.4 is night and day. Across the entire library, not just the trumpets



Oh my god YES. THIS IS WHAT I WANTED FROM THE INFINITE BRASS TRUMPETS!!

I'm hoping that at some point in the coming years we'll be able to do shakes so I don't have to fork over extra cash for a jazz-focused brass library that makes heavy use of FX patches...

EDIT: That sounds like it was just one and the bite was _incredible_. Just imagine when you have 3 or 4 of them. God...


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Here's what you can expect in 1.4.
> 
> The bends weren't performed live (I'm not _that _good), I penned them in manually after recording the notes. And they're more than a semitone, so I had to use the pitch knob (in the instrument control panel in Kontakt).
> 
> Here's the MIDI screenshot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, it's the default concert position on the right, not up close and in-your-face (the whole sound is like when you load it up the first time). Overall took me just a few minutes to do this (so I never have problems with posting examples on demand).
> 
> I'm glad you're liking 1.3.1 but the difference compared to 1.4 is night and day. Across the entire library, not just the trumpets



Wow, it sounds so good. I'm curious about horns and trombones too.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> Wow, it sounds so good. I'm curious about horns and trombones too.



Yeah we've only heard trumpet demos thus far. Even in the Fanfare for the Common Man demo, you hear the trumpets more than anything else. It's understandable though. He overhauled them and must be very proud of his work lol.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Yeah we've only heard trumpet demos thus far. Even in the Fanfare for the Common Man demo, you hear the trumpets more than anything else. It's understandable though. He overhauled them and must be very proud of his work lol.



Yeah I know, but I love F.Horns and Trombones so I'm very curious about them. I'm still learning how to use them at their best with 1.3.1 so I could only imagine what I could do with 1.4.


----------



## artinro

aaronventure said:


> Here's what you can expect in 1.4.
> 
> The bends weren't performed live (I'm not _that _good), I penned them in manually after recording the notes. And they're more than a semitone, so I had to use the pitch knob (in the instrument control panel in Kontakt).
> 
> Here's the MIDI screenshot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, it's the default concert position on the right, not up close and in-your-face (the whole sound is like when you load it up the first time). Overall took me just a few minutes to do this (so I never have problems with posting examples on demand).
> 
> I'm glad you're liking 1.3.1 but the difference compared to 1.4 is night and day. Across the entire library, not just the trumpets



Great work @aaronventure ! Keep the little audio snippets coming until release day, please! Need something fun to look forward to being cooped up here in NY. Stay safe and healthy, all!


----------



## El Buhdai

artinro said:


> Great work @aaronventure ! Keep the little audio snippets coming until release day, please!



Yeah! I'd love to hear some French Horns, some Bones, maybe a Tuba or some of the rarer instruments from the library. A demo a day until Tuesday? 🙂


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> Yeah! I'd love to hear some French Horns, some Bones, maybe a Tuba or some of the rarer instruments from the library. A demo a day until Tuesday? 🙂



This!


----------



## Sean J




----------



## El Buhdai

I wanna finally make good on my promise to share a demo made with some Infinite Brass and Woodwinds instruments. I'll share another one closer to the release of Infinite Brass 1.4 as well. This demo is an orchestral cover of the excellent Terraria main menu theme for console. Here's a video of it for reference: 



Here are the instruments from IB and IW:

Infinite Brass:
6 French Horns
1 Tuba

Infinite Woodwinds:
1 Oboe
2 Clarinets
2 Bassoons

The rest is from EastWest Hollywood Orchestra and Hollywood Choirs. I'm really hoping I can incorporate Infinite Brass' trumpets and trombones in the completed version of this cover, but at the time of making it I didn't find that the 1.3 trumpets and bones had the bite I needed to make an adventure piece like this work.

Another thing to note is that ever since I put this project on the backburner to wait for Infinite Brass 1.4, I discovered that if you detune the horns even more than I did in this demo, they can sound even better. So keep that in mind.

Anyway, I hope you guys enjoy what it sounds like so far! I'll be sending a demo of a completely different style closer to release, and I encourage other owners of Infinite to share too!


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> ...Hollywood Choirs...



Infinite... voices?

I think a black-hole just formed in my brain.


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> Infinite... voices?
> 
> I think a black-hole just formed in my brain.



We already talked about it, Aaron knows....


----------



## doctoremmet

Wow. That sounds GOOD


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> Wow. That sounds GOOD



Thanks! People really love to crap all over EastWest's libraries, but the only reason I'm trying to move away from them is because of how resource-heavy they are and because the loading times are incredibly long. I still think they're capable of a great sound when you need something bold and energetic.


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> Thanks! People really love to crap all over EastWest's libraries, but the only reason I'm trying to move away from them is because of how resource-heavy they are and because the loading times are incredibly long. I still think they're capable of a great sound when you need something bold and energetic.


I know. I’m using EW as well and 8dio Century Strings and Brass. Hollywood still sounds absolutely amazing. I wish it had a more user friendly GUI....


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> I know. I’m using EW as well and 8dio Century Strings and Brass. Hollywood still sounds absolutely amazing. I wish it had a more user friendly GUI....



The patch organization and performance are the main issues with it for sure.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> People really love to crap all over EastWest's libraries...



That's cause they're utter garbage.

(debating on whether I should run away while I can........)

Meyerson, Murphy, Rhodes... smart guys. They make sure seating is right, mics are right, the room is managed or embraced for what it adds, the signal is preserved or enhanced appropriately on a microscopic level... a truly deep level of obsession over signal chain. During the CB beta period, 8dio talked a lot about why they focused on the room. I hate Teldex as a room, but Meyerson managed it well for JXL. A mic and room color the signal so vividly that convolution of a DIFFERENT room is ugly if you don't compensate for the two different signal chains, perhaps even relative to the instrument. Okay, so EW isn't garbage. People do solid mock-ups, just not many naked or single instrument demos that win me over. VSL hired the right guy for VI-Pro. I've met him (he was surprised I'd actually been to Lichtenstein). Anyway, for me, it's just PLAY (maybe just the devs) and the room I don't care for. We're all OCD about different parts of the chain I guess.

Infinite, by comparison...

I initially didn't love Aaron's Medium Hall IR for all instruments. The Holst demo almost put me off, but then I discovered that a mic adjustment quickly satisfied me. Aaron's approach to convolution is definitely just as OCD as he should be. The tone needed improving (there's always a better way), but 1.4 sounds great. Still... EW next to Infinite? I mean, sure... McDonald's exists. It's not what I'd call quality though.


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> That's cause they're utter garbage.
> 
> (debating on whether I should run away while I can........)
> 
> Meyerson, Murphy, Rhodes... smart guys. They make sure seating is right, mics are right, the room is managed or embraced for what it adds, the signal is preserved or enhanced appropriately on a microscopic level... a truly deep level of obsession over signal chain. During the CB beta period, 8dio talked a lot about why they focused on the room. I hate Teldex as a room, but Meyerson managed it well for JXL. A mic and room color the signal so vividly that convolution of a DIFFERENT room is ugly if you don't compensate for the two different signal chains, perhaps even relative to the instrument. Okay, so EW isn't garbage. People do solid mock-ups, just not many naked or single instrument demos that win me over. VSL hired the right guy for VI-Pro. I've met him (he was surprised I'd actually been to Lichtenstein). Anyway, for me, it's just PLAY (maybe just the devs) and the room I don't care for. We're all OCD about different parts of the chain I guess.
> 
> Infinite, by comparison...
> 
> I initially didn't love Aaron's Medium Hall IR for all instruments. The Holst demo almost put me off, but then I discovered that a mic adjustment quickly satisfied me. Aaron's approach to convolution is definitely just as OCD as he should be. The tone needed improving (there's always a better way), but 1.4 sounds great. Still... EW next to Infinite? I mean, sure... McDonald's exists. It's not what I'd call quality though.



Oh man. But I love the tone and room in their strings. Those Cellos are yummy. I wish they were made by Aaron!


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Oh man. But I love the tone and room in their strings. Those Cellos are yummy. I wish they were made by Aaron!



I wish Aaron owned Lyndhurst and had a robot slave with Meyerson's brain, so he could sample every instrument ever created. But I mean... we can't have everything we want.... maybe?


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> I wish Aaron owned Lyndhurst and had a robot slave with Meyerson's brain, so he could sample every instrument ever created. But I mean... we can't have everything we want.... maybe?


By version 1.6 we might be there!


----------



## Heledir

A Subcontrabass Tuba is desperately needed at some point.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> (debating on whether I should run away while I can........)
> 
> Still... EW next to Infinite? I mean, sure... McDonald's exists. It's not what I'd call quality though.



I wrote a very, very long response to this earlier, but instead I'll just say this:

Most orchestral libraries create just as many problems as they solve, but that doesn't make Infinite significantly better or EWHO significantly worse. As someone who owns both, I'd rather have both because I don't think I could make realistic sounding music if I relied totally on one or the other (I also have CSS but I'm in the process of learning how to use it so my music with the library is sloppier. I have about 3 years of experience using EWHO).

EWHO solves the Spitfire problem of inconsistent timing with shorts and poor dynamic range by giving you a library that excels with large arrangements at mezzo-forte and above. The problem? Quieter or more sparsely orchestrated passages sound blocky and lack emotion.

CSS solves the "most libraries" problem of having _meh_ or bad legato. The problem? The dynamic range and patch collection are quite limited, the vibrato is so intense that it limits the number of styles you can achieve, and the library is incredibly dark and thin out of the box.

Infinite solves the problem of stiff passages that don't sound musical as well as the headache of dealing with enormous projects full of keyswitches, but creates a problem in the tone department, and the sections don't sound as much like sections. It's getting better every few months, but the problem will likely be there on some level for quite some time. There are only a couple virtual instruments in the entire Infinite series that I'd say sound better than the sampled instruments in EWHO. Infinite will always sound more musical, but it will rarely sound more _natural_ in terms of tone.

Until Aaron is happy with Infinite (because let's face it, when he's happy with it, we all will be because of how much of a perfectionist he is), I'll continue blending it with traditional libraries to get the best of both worlds. As of now, it's hard to make an entire Infinite-only ensemble sound as good as traditional stuff in my experience.


----------



## DANIELE

Heledir said:


> A Subcontrabass Tuba is desperately needed at some point.



*This*.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I wrote a very, very long response to this earlier, but instead I'll just say this:
> 
> Most orchestral libraries create just as many problems as they solve, but that doesn't make Infinite significantly better or EWHO significantly worse. As someone who owns both, I'd rather have both because I don't think I could make realistic sounding music if I relied totally on one or the other (I also have CSS but I'm in the process of learning how to use it so my music with the library is sloppier. I have about 3 years of experience using EWHO).
> 
> EWHO solves the Spitfire problem of inconsistent timing with shorts and poor dynamic range by giving you a library that excels with large arrangements at mezzo-forte and above. The problem? Quieter or more sparsely orchestrated passages sound blocky and lack emotion.
> 
> CSS solves the "most libraries" problem of having _meh_ or bad legato. The problem? The dynamic range and patch collection are quite limited, the vibrato is so intense that it limits the number of styles you can achieve, and the library is incredibly dark and thin out of the box.
> 
> Infinite solves the problem of stiff passages that don't sound musical as well as the headache of dealing with enormous projects full of keyswitches, but creates a problem in the tone department, and the sections don't sound as much like sections. It's getting better every few months, but the problem will likely be there on some level for quite some time. There are only a couple virtual instruments in the entire Infinite series that I'd say sound better than the sampled instruments in EWHO. Infinite will always sound more musical, but it will rarely sound more _natural_ in terms of tone.
> 
> Until Aaron is happy with Infinite (because let's face it, when he's happy with it, we all will be because of how much of a perfectionist he is), I'll continue blending it with traditional libraries to get the best of both worlds. As of now, it's hard to make an entire Infinite-only ensemble sound as good as traditional stuff in my experience.



I think he will surprise everyone of us with the new updates he will bring to us but with 1.3.1 already if you follow some advices from him you could make a good sounding ensemble sound.

Here's a track made only with IB, IW and Samplemodeling Strings (I still have to upload it on my YouTube channel), I know it still could be improved, I'm not a professional musician but try to see what you could do by shaping well your CCs.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I think he will surprise everyone of us with the new updates he will bring to us but with 1.3.1 already if you follow some advices from him you could make a good sounding ensemble sound.
> 
> Here's a track made only with IB, IW and Samplemodeling Strings (I still have to upload it on my YouTube channel), I know it still could be improved, I'm not a professional musician but try to see what you could do by shaping well your CCs.



NICE!!!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> NICE!!!



Thank you.

There is another pair of track where IB shines more but, as I said, I will post them once the shortmovie will be out.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I wanna finally make good on my promise to share a demo made with some Infinite Brass and Woodwinds instruments. I'll share another one closer to the release of Infinite Brass 1.4 as well. This demo is an orchestral cover of the excellent Terraria main menu theme for console. Here's a video of it for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the instruments from IB and IW:
> 
> Infinite Brass:
> 6 French Horns
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds:
> 1 Oboe
> 2 Clarinets
> 2 Bassoons
> 
> The rest is from EastWest Hollywood Orchestra and Hollywood Choirs. I'm really hoping I can incorporate Infinite Brass' trumpets and trombones in the completed version of this cover, but at the time of making it I didn't find that the 1.3 trumpets and bones had the bite I needed to make an adventure piece like this work.
> 
> Another thing to note is that ever since I put this project on the backburner to wait for Infinite Brass 1.4, I discovered that if you detune the horns even more than I did in this demo, they can sound even better. So keep that in mind.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you guys enjoy what it sounds like so far! I'll be sending a demo of a completely different style closer to release, and I encourage other owners of Infinite to share too!




I listened to the track, very very good work. I love it.

I'd like you try to do this only with IB and IW. Maybe once the IB 1.4 and IW 1.2 are out.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I listened to the track, very very good work. I love it.
> 
> I'd like you try to do this only with IB and IW. Maybe once the IB 1.4 and IW 1.2 are out.



I believe very strongly that Infinite Brass will probably be able to replace Hollywood Brass entirely in this piece after 1.4. The trumpets will definitely be up to the task. I still have concerns about the trombones since we haven't heard much from them yet. I'm actually waiting for that update so I can drop it into several ongoing projects! As of now, my brass is usually half Hollywood Brass (Trumpets, Bones) and half Infinite Brass (FH, Tuba).

As for IW, it depends on what Aaron can do to the flutes in the next update. EWHO's piccolo runs are very intense and have tons of bite, which is great for adventure, and I haven't managed a similar sound from IW's Piccolo. I'm satisfied with basically every other instrument's tone except the Bassoons (which I still use because it does some things pretty well) and the English Horn (which I don't use). 

And even though Hollywood Woodwinds is not a very good library, its flute is the best instrument in the section and the legato isn't unusable like most of the others. Plus you get the added benefit of recorded tone.

TL;DR - I might do it! Just depends on how the updates shape up.


----------



## pierrevigneron

El Buhdai said:


> I believe very strongly that Infinite Brass will probably be able to replace Hollywood Brass entirely in this piece after 1.4. The trumpets will definitely be up to the task. I still have concerns about the trombones since we haven't heard much from them yet. I'm actually waiting for that update so I can drop it into several ongoing projects! As of now, my brass is usually half Hollywood Brass (Trumpets, Bones) and half Infinite Brass (FH, Tuba).
> 
> As for IW, it depends on what Aaron can do to the flutes in the next update. EWHO's piccolo runs are very intense and have tons of bite, which is great for adventure, and I haven't managed a similar sound from IW's Piccolo. I'm satisfied with basically every other instrument's tone except the Bassoons (which I still use because it does some things pretty well) and the English Horn (which I don't use).
> 
> And even though Hollywood Woodwinds is not a very good library, its flute is the best instrument in the section and the legato isn't unusable like most of the others. Plus you get the added benefit of recorded tone.
> 
> TL;DR - I might do it! Just depends on how the updates shape up.


I agree for Hollywood woodwinds: I no longer use this library (I use VSL or IW instead) except for the two flutes which have an adorable tone and a rather good legato


----------



## pierrevigneron

Disappointed that no one has yet been able to make a comparison between sample modeling and Infinite brass. I love the sample modeling brass but I tell myself that if IB is similar with this more realistic placement in space (because sample modeling is very dry) I jump on it from 1.4 release


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> Disappointed that no one has yet been able to make a comparison between sample modeling and Infinite brass. I love the sample modeling brass but I tell myself that if IB is similar with this more realistic placement in space (because sample modeling is very dry) I jump on it from 1.4 release



There's an old Infinite thread that has some of those comparisons if I remember correctly. There's also some demos in there that combine Infinite Brass and SM Brass.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> I don't think I could make realistic sounding music if I relied totally on one or the other



I think Infinite can be used on it's own just fine. 

Play any instrument in 100 rooms, recorded with different mics, and by all the great AE's in the world. Listen to every recording. After that kind of an experience, I suspect no one would ever complain about tone. We get "temp love" over rooms, over mics, the combination of the two, etc. I noticed this the first time I played in a different hall in grade school. I hated it simply because it was different. I suspect sample libraries have a great tendency for this. I admittedly aim for Lyndhurst. I wish Aaron owned it. Sure. But even those great AE's all frequently say that the composer and session cohesion / energy have a lot more to do with what makes a great recording. I don't mean to downplay their job. I just don't think tone is as critical as we suspect.

That Rhapsody in Blue sounds on par with recordings I've heard. Most people wouldn't even know it wasn't a recording if they weren't told.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> I think Infinite can be used on it's own just fine.
> 
> Play any instrument in 100 rooms, recorded with different mics, and by all the great AE's in the world. Listen to every recording. After that kind of an experience, I suspect no one would ever complain about tone.
> 
> That Rhapsody in Blue sounds on par with recordings I've heard. Most people wouldn't even know it wasn't a recording if they weren't told.



The Rhapsody in Blue demo is the one that sold me on the library. I fell in love with the convolution reverb and simulated rooms he used. They provide an incredible sense of depth, warmth, and presence that traditional sample libraries never have out of the box. So if positioning, playability, and musicality are great, then what's the problem?

My issues with the tone of some of the instruments in this library usually come down to the little things that are missing; the things that are so tiny that they're hard to even describe without it sounding like nonsense:

The subtle gritty woodiness sound of the bassoon or the oboe. The breathy twinkle present in every note played by a flutist. The nasally texture of the English Horn. All of these things are present, but not to the extent that they would be in traditional libraries, and every time I listen to music made with other sample libraries, or real instruments, those differences become very apparent.

I _love_ these libraries, and the more I think about the work that went into them (based on what he's told me, and based on what I've examined in Kontakt), the more I'm convinced that Aaron is a genius on some level. You might agree if you pop the hood on these instruments in Kontakt and listen to the raw samples. Some of them sound nothing like the instrument being recorded, and yet he made realistic sounding instruments with all sorts of clever trickery that I encourage you all to discover for yourselves.

However, I think withholding criticism of the libraries is doing everyone a disservice. They've gotten to where they are because Aaron not only accepts criticism of his excellent libraries, but invites it. He's also echoed a lot of my criticisms of both libraries in past emails. They're excellent, but they're not perfect. _We should criticize the libraries because they're so great, and they could be made even better_. At least we're lucky enough to have a developer who cares about post-launch support.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> The subtle gritty woodiness sound of the bassoon or the oboe. The breathy twinkle present in every note played by a flutist. The nasally texture of the English Horn. All of these things are present, but not to the extent that they would be in traditional libraries, and every time I listen to music made with other sample libraries, or real instruments, those differences become very apparent.



AH! Gotcha. I took tone to mean a much higher vantage point, like the simple EQ color of an instrument. As for the little details, I couldn't agree more. I've mentioned brass attacks and flute breath on vibrato as things I'd like to see improve. EQ does help with things like the 'woodiness', to an extent, but yes, those are the things I'd like to see improve most. I've dug under the hood and agree. He truly "uses" Kontakt, uses convolution for more than just reverb, and he could probably make my whistling sound like a Tuba if he wanted to.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I believe very strongly that Infinite Brass will probably be able to replace Hollywood Brass entirely in this piece after 1.4. The trumpets will definitely be up to the task. I still have concerns about the trombones since we haven't heard much from them yet. I'm actually waiting for that update so I can drop it into several ongoing projects! As of now, my brass is usually half Hollywood Brass (Trumpets, Bones) and half Infinite Brass (FH, Tuba).
> 
> As for IW, it depends on what Aaron can do to the flutes in the next update. EWHO's piccolo runs are very intense and have tons of bite, which is great for adventure, and I haven't managed a similar sound from IW's Piccolo. I'm satisfied with basically every other instrument's tone except the Bassoons (which I still use because it does some things pretty well) and the English Horn (which I don't use).
> 
> And even though Hollywood Woodwinds is not a very good library, its flute is the best instrument in the section and the legato isn't unusable like most of the others. Plus you get the added benefit of recorded tone.
> 
> TL;DR - I might do it! Just depends on how the updates shape up.



I use IB trombones a lot because they are very powerful and clear. They could be improved for sure but I like them, I managed to achieve good sharp staccatos with them.
The bass and contrabass trombones has less bite instead, I don't know well the real instrument but I thinked that the should have a more aggressive low sound (maybe here some good brass player could help), anyway they are great for doubling trombones.

About the flutes Aaron said he is redoing them from scratch so we could expect some improvements on this side from 1.2 update.
In the meantime I discovered that using the "air" knob, especially with runs, brings out very good results.


----------



## mohsohsenshi

Has anyone tested IB for Jazz style?
Any thoughts about using it for Jazz solo brass? Big band style?
What about special effects like Fall, Doit, Gliss, Flip, Rip etc?


----------



## pierrevigneron

That interests me a lot !!! I wrote a comedy where I used IW and they did well but for fairly "classic" or slightly jazzy parts (and I didn't look any further for jazz writing for these woodwinds). the Sample modeling brass, on the other hand, do wonderfully well in a jazz style. Hence my interest for your question concerning IB in a jazz style


----------



## pierrevigneron

The jazz style often needs a proximity microphone for a sound with a lot of body and I do not know if in this regard the spot microphone position of the infinite series can be enough. In any case listening, in general I said rather Infinite for the classic style and SM for the Jazz style but I will be interested that someone shows me the opposite. After all also depends on what we mean by Jazz style because Gershwin has nothing to do with Miles Davis or funky brass as a tower of power ^^


----------



## I like music

Aaron, I heard they're shutting down the internet on Sunday. Any chance you can upload 1.4 before then?


----------



## pierrevigneron

Poor Aaron, we harass him. Let's be patient Tuesday is in 4 days ^^


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Aaron, I heard they're shutting down the internet on Sunday. Any chance you can upload 1.4 before then?



You will only be able to download at a maximum of 1 kbps so you will take ages to download the update and you will suffer the pain of thousand people screaming in the dark while you will be ageing without being able to use IB 1.4.


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Poor Aaron, we harass him. Let's be patient Tuesday is in 4 days ^^



I know, but the internet is shutting down on Sunday!!!

EDIT: wait, I just found out it was my local restaurant that's shutting down, and not the internet.


----------



## pierrevigneron

In this demo I use Infinite Woodwinds. we hear them especially at 0mn38 seconds (setbacks), 1mn, 1m28, 1mn47


----------



## pierrevigneron

I like music said:


> I know, but the internet is shutting down on Sunday!!!
> 
> EDIT: wait, I just found out it was my local restaurant that's shutting down, and not the internet.


Oh ok i didn't know that


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> In this demo I use Infinite Woodwinds. we hear them especially at 0mn38 seconds (setbacks), 1mn, 1m28, 1mn47



SWEET! This is very cool!


----------



## Sean J

He's intentionally withholding demos at this point. He wants us to suffer and agonize until our desire to buy his samples is so profound that we'll feel we need 1.4 to survive.

Aaron, we already do feel this way. Just hand over the demos and this won't get ugly.


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> In this demo I use Infinite Woodwinds. we hear them especially at 0mn38 seconds (setbacks), 1mn, 1m28, 1mn47



Wow, this is an incredibly clean mix!


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> He wants us to suffer and agonize until our desire to buy his samples is so profound that we'll feel we need 1.4 to survive.



I know, right? I'm itching to give him more money to support his work even further but we have no idea when Strings or Percussion are coming. 

I wish I had the resources to have purchased IB and IW without a student discount.


----------



## I like music

It is nearly Tuesday in Australia :D


----------



## shawnsingh

Is there any authoritative information on the possibility of strings and percussion?

The only thing I've seen was that strings, if it's even going to be a real product, would have individual players. That's enough to grab my attention!


----------



## aaronventure

shawnsingh said:


> strings


In development, will be individual instruments but also section patches, which will have autodivisi and let you choose the size for each section. 



shawnsingh said:


> percussion


I created a proof-of-concept when I originally added Percussion to the website, but development hasn't started. What with all the shutdown and everything, most likely 2021.



I like music said:


> It is nearly Tuesday in Australia


Yeah, I think it's gonna be a Wednesday in your case


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> In development, will be individual instruments but also section patches, which will have autodivisi and let you choose the size for each section.
> 
> 
> I created a proof-of-concept when I originally added Percussion to the website, but development hasn't started. What with all the shutdown and everything, most likely 2021.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think it's gonna be a Wednesday in your case



Did you managed to do all the recordings for strings before the shutdown? If you can talk about it, obviously.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Yeah, I think it's gonna be a Wednesday in your case



Haha, luckily I'm from the UK. Was hoping against hope that you were working on Australian time!

Super excited about this one, man!


----------



## Sean J

In a dry divisi string library, I'll most look for good tone in sections, a body that resonates naturally, and smarter humanizing. VSL's Dimension Strings has better performance with a very thin tone and lacks realistic resonance in the note releases. As for humanizing, more size + more speed = more sloppy timing. As much musical context as possible will matter for the sections. Runs and spiccatos are never perfect. Legato arpeggiations on a cello get messy in the low range and in any range when compared to a flute. Sections multiply all of these facts.

Solos and Autodivisi is great. Custom section sizes is the right idea, but hard to do right. If anyone could, it's you Aaron!


----------



## decredis

Gosh is it Brassmas Eve already?


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> Gosh is it Brassmas Eve already?



Funny you say that, last night I literally dreamed about Infinite Brass 1.4 like a kid dreaming about their Christmas present. That might be a little sad but I don't care I'm excited!

Tomorrow's the big day! What instrument is everyone gonna open up first?


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Funny you say that, last night I literally dreamed about Infinite Brass 1.4 like a kid dreaming about their Christmas present. That might be a little sad but I don't care I'm excited!
> 
> Tomorrow's the big day! What instrument is everyone gonna open up first?



Horns, I start always with horns.


----------



## axb312

aaronventure said:


> In development, will be individual instruments but also section patches, which will have autodivisi and let you choose the size for each section.
> 
> 
> I created a proof-of-concept when I originally added Percussion to the website, but development hasn't started. What with all the shutdown and everything, most likely 2021.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think it's gonna be a Wednesday in your case



Woot. Woot. I hope the strings sound awesome.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> While you're still best off performing each instrument individually, this really does sound good (see Fanfare demo a few pages back), especially if you bury it in the mix (softer playing). If you're gonna play loud and the brass is really gonna stick out, it would be in your interest to play each one of those (e.g. trumpets playing a melody at ff).



Aaron, regarding this statement I only have a little question: you said that this update will bring light detuning and delay on each instruments (plus other things under the hood maybe) to help the ensemble playing more as a group of separate musicians. Here you are saying that if the brass stick out it is better to play every single line alone to add randomness etc...

Sometimes I do it, sometimes not, it is a matter of how much time I have at my disposal. Are you telling that eventually it is still better to keep some delay randomization on each instrument if you would like to play and record every group like an ensemble?

Thank you.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> Horns, I start always with horns.



Usually I'm the same but I'm gonna have to betray the french horns this time because I need to get my hands all over those new trumpets. I've been craving them for months!


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Usually I'm the same but I'm gonna have to betray the french horns this time because I need to get my hands all over those new trumpets. I've been craving them for months!



Well Horns and...Trumpets immediately after.


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> Tomorrow's the big day! What instrument is everyone gonna open up first?


My keyboard and computer are in storage for the rest of the week, so I'm just going to be a voyeur (or whatever the auditory equivalent is) for the next few days... I'm hoping for a lot of official and user demos, which will probably determine what I look at first when I can. At the moment, it's the trumpet I'm most excited about, after the amazing demo Aaron posted a while back.


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> My keyboard and computer are in storage for the rest of the week, so I'm just going to be a voyeur (or whatever the auditory equivalent is) for the next few days... I'm hoping for a lot of official and user demos, which will probably determine what I look at first when I can. At the moment, it's the trumpet I'm most excited about, after the amazing demo Aaron posted a while back.



Dang sorry to hear that. I'm more than happy to send demos of solo instruments to help you get your Infinite Fix.

I went back to send that demo to a couplw of my composer buddies who own the libraries but don't follow this thread, but unfortunately I think he took it down.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> ...but unfortunately I think he took it down.



It's all part my conspiracy theory about Aaron making us want it more. This will only get more intense before tomorrow.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Tomorrow's the big day! What instrument is everyone gonna open up first?



The Tuba of course!

Never underestimate the power of a low instrument.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> The Tuba of course!
> 
> Never underestimate the power of a low instrument.



He told me a while back that he adjusted the sound of the convolution reverb to reflect the Tuba's position further back in the orchestra. I'm excited to see what else he's done to the instrument!


----------



## purple

I think possibly the reason you don't hear much hate for it is that people who don't like it probably don't bother to say anything. It's not as popular as obviously spitfire (who i believe sponsor this site heavily, please don't take my social credit points away for this). Spitfire releases often have a huge hype train around them and so it's easy to make fun of them for that and want to "punch up" at them for the issues their fans seem to overlook a lot. If you just search "infinite series" I don't think you'll see a thread where someone is like "why the infinite series is overrated/sucks", but if you did the same for spitfire libraries you'd get many results.


----------



## Wenlone

Hi,

What is the RAM usage of Infinite Series's scripts ?

Usually nobody talks about RAM usage of scripts. It was a shock to me when i first saw my empty project(all samples purged) uses almost %60 of my ram because of scripts.


----------



## x-dfo

Wenlone said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is the RAM usage of Infinite Series's scripts ?
> 
> Usually nobody talks about RAM usage of scripts. It was a shock to me when i first saw my empty project(all samples purged) uses almost %60 of my ram because of scripts.


Or the cpu cost, I'd love to hear some numbers of a full orchestra going at it.


----------



## x-dfo

Completely unscientific numbers I got in ableton - 34 kontakt instances, every single woodwinds instrument open plus some with multiple instruments open, some with legato disable to allow chords, when hammered by the same midi input keyboard, ate about 50% cpu and about 6 gigs of ram. I have an i9-9900k but I don't think ableton is multithreading it so that's probably 50% of a single core at 4.68ghz. Oh that was with medium hall, it went down 20% using studio and mixed mic (not sure if the mic type actually affects cpu).


----------



## El Buhdai

Wenlone said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is the RAM usage of Infinite Series's scripts ?
> 
> Usually nobody talks about RAM usage of scripts. It was a shock to me when i first saw my empty project(all samples purged) uses almost %60 of my ram because of scripts.



RAM is low enough that you can load the libraries on a budget laptop, CPU usage is enough that you can't easily run it on one. Even with mixed mic enabled on most instruments, I still get spikes here and there with a 7700K if most Infinite instruments are playing trills or other articulations that have a lot of transitions.


----------



## x-dfo

From the infinite website:
_With all that taken into account, Infinite Brass instruments are some of the lightest you’ll ever use, totaling at 11.50 GB with only ~60 MB of RAM footprint per instrument and a less-than-average CPU footprint with Mixed Mic enabled due to highly optimized scripting. The future is now! 
_
And woodwinds page states about 40 MB per instrument.


----------



## I like music

Happy Tuesday everyone.


----------



## doctoremmet

Hyped 😂🆒


----------



## decredis

So my final bet on the order in which the four horses of the near-future apocalypse will cross the line:

1. IB1.4 (because surely nothing can stop it now)
2. World War (ten years from now, following years of devastation by coronavirus and each country developing an each-for-themselves mentality and hoarding resources and medicine)
3. Extinction by coronavirus (fifteen years from now as it picks off the last survivors of the world war)
4. Climate catastrophe (because humanity was wiped out too late to reverse the destructive processes we set in train)


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> So my final bet on the order in which the four horses of the near-future apocalypse will cross the line:
> 
> 1. IB1.4 (because surely nothing can stop it now)
> 2. World War (ten years from now, following years of devastation by coronavirus and each country developing an each-for-themselves mentality and hoarding resources and medicine)
> 3. Extinction by coronavirus (fifteen years from now as it picks off the last survivors of the world war)
> 4. Climate catastrophe (because humanity was wiped out too late to reverse the destructive processes we set in train)



Hah! And 100 years from now, from Australia, we will all get an email about CSW.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Hah! And 100 years from now, from Australia, we will all get an email about CSW.


CSW, CSW. Hmmm.... as an 8dio Century Strings / Brass user, is that something like Century Woodwinds?


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> CSW, CSW. Hmmm.... as an 8dio Century Strings / Brass user, is that something like Century Woodwinds?



It is Cinematic Studio Woodwinds.


----------



## decredis

I'm refreshing AV's webpage like it's 2019.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> I'm refreshing AV's webpage like it's 2019.


Black Friday?


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Black Friday?


I didn't stop then. I was still refreshing that page hopefully up until new year's eve. :o


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> It is Cinematic Studio Woodwinds.


Thanks, I know. I tried to joke that CSW is a bit like Century Woodwinds, as in: long awaited, mythical expectations, hardly any news on release dates. Totally UNLIKE IB1.4 of course hehe


----------



## doctoremmet

In the meantime, I am having a go at mocking up this beautiful track by Mick Karn. Mostly known for his haunting work on the fretless bass, he also contributed a lot of woodwind arrangements to music of Japan (the band) and his own compositions. After all IW1.1 is currently the only AV instrument I actually own 



I will also be using the 8dio 1985 Passionate Piano (Yamaha C5) that I just got (on sale and I highly recommend it if you like your pianos warm, dark and ready for scoring). It’s $58 right now.


----------



## doctoremmet

Totally off topic, but Mick Karn got me into this whole Japan-and-its-spinoffs-rabbithole. So allow me to offer y’all this excellent piece of music. Consider it a great way to kill time while hitting that F5 button....



Damn, that drumbeat 2:53 and onwards sounds SO nice....


----------



## DANIELE

I'm at work so Aaron, don't rush, I still have to work 3 hours at least.


----------



## I like music

Every hour brings us too close to April Fools Day. Things are becoming too confusing for me.


----------



## I like music

It is out ...











... of our hands at this point.

(Sorry)


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> Totally off topic, but Mick Karn got me into this whole Japan-and-its-spinoffs-rabbithole. So allow me to offer y’all this excellent piece of music. Consider it a great way to kill time while hitting that F5 button....
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, that drumbeat 2:53 and onwards sounds SO nice....



Oooh these are great, I love Japan but had never looked into any of their work beyond the band, so thanks for this!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Every hour brings us too close to April Fools Day. Things are becoming too confusing for me.



Finally you uncovered the truth, it is all a huge APRIL FOOL.


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> I'm refreshing AV's webpage like it's 2019.





I like music said:


> It is out ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... of our hands at this point.
> 
> (Sorry)



You monster. 

I'm going back to sleep.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> It is out ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... of our hands at this point.
> 
> (Sorry)



All who vote to ban this guy from VI-Control?

And here I liked you...


----------



## El Buhdai

This is probably the first time I can remember being so excited about something on a Tuesday (not counting certain Amazon packages I've gotten over the years).

Every second is a decade.
Every minute is a century.
Every hour is a millennia.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> This is probably the first time I can remember being so excited about something on a Tuesday (not counting certain Amazon packages I've gotten over the years).
> 
> Every second is a decade.
> Every minute is a century.
> Every hour is a millennia.



You don't do pancake day?!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> You don't do pancake day?!



This is the first I've heard of it. I suppose I'm too boring lol.


----------



## Sean J

Whoever hosts aaronventure.com has to think there's a DDOS attack going on.

Meh, who cares!

Refresh 721... 722... 723...


----------



## decredis

It's going to be released at 2359 American Samoa time, isn't it


----------



## axb312

@aaronventure Donno if you've considered it or not but a livestream, particularly in this time, walking through the update and how best to use the lib in it's latest form would be greatly appreciated....


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> It's going to be released at 2359 American Samoa time, isn't it



I'm hoping it won't come as a preorder bonus for Half-Life 3 at this point.


----------



## x-dfo

El Buhdai said:


> I'm hoping it won't come as a preorder bonus for Half-Life 3 at this point.


whoooa whoooooooaaaa let's not go to extremes until the afternoon


----------



## doctoremmet

x-dfo said:


> whoooa whoooooooaaaa let's not go to extremes until the afternoon


I hear they’re postponing Half Life 3, because they want to use IB1.4 fff trumpets in the epic trailer music they’re composing for it


----------



## doctoremmet

x-dfo said:


> whoooa whoooooooaaaa let's not go to extremes until the afternoon


In my defense: it’s 18.37 where I live


----------



## El Buhdai

x-dfo said:


> whoooa whoooooooaaaa let's not go to extremes until the afternoon



Of course, it's just some good ol' banter.


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> It's going to be released at 2359 American Samoa time, isn't it



I was just to saying this, for many of us will be night time. We will talk about it tomorrow.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I was just to saying this, for many of us will be night time. We will talk about it tomorrow.



Yeah that would be 5:00 am for me...


----------



## decredis

In 2025, an unemployed trumpeter took up quantum physics and developed a time machine to avert the timeline in which traditional musicians became superfluous. In the thrilling new Netflix series "Infinite Regress" we follow her repeated visits to March 31st 2020 in an increasingly convoluted mission to prevent the release of IB1.4.


----------



## doctoremmet

decredis said:


> In 2025, an unemployed trumpeter took up quantum physics and developed a time machine to avert the timeline in which traditional musicians became superfluous. In the thrilling new Netflix series "Infinite Regress" we follow her repeated visits to March 31st 2020 in an increasingly convoluted mission to prevent the release of IB1.4.


Spoiler alert
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
In a weird plot twist it turns out she used the VI Control forum to spread all kinds of misinformation in order to completely mindrape all the original buyers of Infinite instruments, since they helped spread the virus that made all trumpeters homeless and living under the bridge in the first place. Her name? Noone really ever found out, but it was whispered people called her “decredis”.

In an even weirder plot twist a huge time paradox occurred because the epic film trailer Netflix had commissioned apparently was largely based on the IB1.4 fff trumpets, which in that timeline should not exist, creating a huge black hole that sucked up all humans, but the trumpeters. Who lived happily ever after.


----------



## doctoremmet

decredis said:


> Oooh these are great, I love Japan but had never looked into any of their work beyond the band, so thanks for this!


Yes, their later output is quite wide in range, I’d say, but very musical in a lot of cases. Worth diving into. For instance, this is a relatively “new” album by almost all Japan band members (excluding Sylvian) which I rather like. Especially those strings around the 3 minute mark, and some delicate fretless bass noodling make this track a beauty (at least to my ears). So once more, here is some “waiting music” for y’all....


----------



## Sean J

FINALLY!!!

The demos are amazing for one (I can hardly wait for the download to finish)... but seriously Aaron, you hit a home run here. Love the price too!


----------



## doctoremmet

scoredfilms said:


> FINALLY!!!
> 
> The demos are amazing for one (I can hardly wait for the download to finish)... but seriously Aaron, you hit a home run here. Love the price too!


Erm... huh? You just messing? I can hit F5 all I want, but I still see 1.3.1

EDIT: ah wait you’re in one of them other timelines


----------



## Sean J

Sorry, I was wondering how I could be more evil than "I like music" (in hopes of fooling him in return). I figured leaving off the 'j/k' at the end would do it. Sorry, getting back at him is worth everyone taking a hit. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many in this case.


----------



## Montisquirrel

scoredfilms said:


> FINALLY!!!
> 
> The demos are amazing for one (I can hardly wait for the download to finish)... but seriously Aaron, you hit a home run here. Love the price too!



Maybe it is already April 1st in his timezone


----------



## DANIELE

Guys, are you sure is everything ok?

I fear that the imprisonment in your homes is having a very very very bad effect on your brains.


----------



## Sean J

DANIELE said:


> I fear that the imprisonment in your homes is having a very very very bad effect on your brains.



Solitary at home for 2 years, a betrayal, then another 2 year solitary... Covid-19 is nothing by comparison. I lost my marbles well before. ha ha ha....... ha ha...... (starts sobbing).

StaffPad and Infinite are my cures. It's always darkest before the sunrise.


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> Sorry, I was wondering how I could be more evil than "I like music" (in hopes of fooling him in return). I figured leaving off the 'j/k' at the end would do it. Sorry, getting back at him is worth everyone taking a hit. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many in this case.


You got me bad there. Bastard. I think we're even now!


----------



## doctoremmet

The AV Infinite crowd has quickly become some of the funnier ones I’ve come to know around here. We should team up and organize group buys 😂


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> Solitary at home for 2 years, a betrayal, then another 2 year solitary... Covid-19 is nothing by comparison. I lost my marbles well before. ha ha ha....... ha ha...... (starts sobbing).
> 
> StaffPad and Infinite are my cures. It's always darkest before the sunrise.



Oh, let me give you a big hug!


----------



## Nicola74

I really can't wait!!
But I am not sure about how it works: is it free for the owners of IB 1.3.1?
Are we going to receive a mail for the update or what?


----------



## decredis

scoredfilms said:


> FINALLY!!!
> 
> The demos are amazing for one (I can hardly wait for the download to finish)... but seriously Aaron, you hit a home run here. Love the price too!


Truly brutal.


----------



## decredis

Nicola74 said:


> I really can't wait!!
> But I am not sure about how it works: is it free for the owners of IB 1.3.1?
> Are we going to receive a mail for the update or what?


As I understand it, Aaron is committed to all updates and extensions within each library being free to existing users forever.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> Sorry, I was wondering how I could be more evil than "I like music" (in hopes of fooling him in return). I figured leaving off the 'j/k' at the end would do it. Sorry, getting back at him is worth everyone taking a hit. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many in this case.



You're banned.


----------



## DANIELE

Nicola74 said:


> I really can't wait!!
> But I am not sure about how it works: is it free for the owners of IB 1.3.1?
> Are we going to receive a mail for the update or what?



The update is free and you should receive an email with the update notification.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> You got me bad there. Bastard. I think we're even now!



Dude my heart literally jumped and I smiled before I made the realization. Your trick was evil, but I feel like his was a hate crime and should be illegal. It felt personal.


----------



## decredis

Going to watch the latest episode of Better Call Saul. I'm thinking maybe AV resolved the legal issues by getting Saul Goodman on the case and now he's having to fend off a hostile takeover of Infinite by some bigwig from the methamphetamine industry.


----------



## Nicola74

Ok, thanks everyone!


----------



## doctoremmet

decredis said:


> Going to watch the latest episode of Better Call Saul. I'm thinking maybe AV resolved the legal issues by getting Saul Goodman on the case and now he's having to fend off a hostile takeover of Infinite by some bigwig from the methamphetamine industry.


...involving Mike and Nacho abducting some big music industry mobster honchos that were messing with AV in order to convince them to take their legal interests elsewhere.... ?


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> ...involving Mike and Nacho abducting some big music industry mobster honchos that were messing with AV in order to convince them to take their legal interests elsewhere.... ?


Uh huh. And Fring setting up a basement software development studio and chaining programmers and musicians up in it until they produce crystal that's indistinguishable from the Infinite Series. It all gets pretty messy and bleak tbh.


----------



## doctoremmet

decredis said:


> Uh huh. And Fring setting up a basement software development studio and chaining programmers and musicians up in it until they produce crystal that's indistinguishable from the Infinite Series. It all gets pretty messy and bleak tbh.


Damn. So that’s what those German engineers were doing ALL ALONG! Damn! Hans Gruber type guys DID mess with IB. Oh man, it’s almost time for bed in my timezone and I can hardly get these images out of my head. Thanks again Decredis


----------



## I like music

Boys and girls, I think we should call it a day today. I very much doubt it is coming out today. But it has been fun, and thanks for the company during the day!


----------



## Sean J

Nicola74 said:


> I really can't wait!!
> But I am not sure about how it works: is it free for the owners of IB 1.3.1?
> Are we going to receive a mail for the update or what?



Others have answered this, but I'd like to put this into a market perspective. Having put so much behind other devs (half the market) and been abandoned by so many devs, I have to say that Aaron has been the best example of "doing it right" I've seen so far. My experience with sample companies has seen broken promises, marketing norms to downright ugly schemes, and a whole lot of "growing business pains". Many devs simply don't know how to run a company to please users, handing off product management to someone else, etc, etc, etc. Aaron doesn't just enjoy sampling, but composing. He is his product manager, and owns and cares about improving the product. The resulting benefits to users that stem from that fact are so ranging that it's hard for me to look at the rest of the market and find a dev that has the same values I have in sampling the orchestra.

His update philosophy is as impressive and long overdue as his instruments are.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Boys and girls, I think we should call it a day today. I very much doubt it is coming out today. But it has been fun, and thanks for the company during the day!



Say it ain't so!  

He liked that message about it coming out at 11:59 American Samoa time, so maybe some of us will wake up to a very nice gift tomorrow.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Boys and girls, I think we should call it a day today. I very much doubt it is coming out today. But it has been fun, and thanks for the company during the day!


Doctor Emmet signing out. Time for bed here. It HAS been nice to hang around here with you all, thanks for great vibes today. For some of you: have fun with 1.4 and start making demos. I’ll be back soon. Take care all <3


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Say it ain't so!
> 
> He liked that message about it coming out at 11:59 American Samoa time, so maybe some of us will wake up to a very nice gift tomorrow.



Wait, I didn't see that he liked that comment. I see that now. OK, we're back on!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Wait, I didn't see that he liked that comment. I see that now. OK, we're back on!



Lol it'll be 5:00 am for me if he actually releases it at the time.


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> Lol it'll be 5:00 am for me if he actually releases it at the time.


I've decided that if he actually releases it at 2359 American Samoan time, I win a free copy.


----------



## DANIELE

Well, guys.

Good night and good waiting.


----------



## decredis

I'm convinced enough that it will be out while it's technically March somewhere that I know this is going to be a night like when there's been an election or referendum and I can't quite be bothered to stay up but really want to know the result; so I'm going to sleep fitfully and check my phone every single one of the many times I wake up.


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> I'm convinced enough that it will be out while it's technically March somewhere that I know this is going to be a night like when there's been an election or referendum and I can't quite be bothered to stay up but really want to know the result; so I'm going to sleep fitfully and check my phone every single one of the many times I wake up.



Aaron's procrasting until it's still March in only .01% of the world lol.


----------



## Sean J

Honestly, I don't care if it's tonight, tomorrow, or gets delayed another month cause Aaron finds a bug (I'd blame N.I. before him likely anyway). As long as it comes first on the apocalyptic prediction list from earlier, I'm good.


----------



## Montisquirrel

You just woke up and checked? Yes, I can feel you...


----------



## DANIELE

Montisquirrel said:


> You just woke up and checked? Yes, I can feel you...



I have been at work for at least 3 hours now actually. Good morning to everyone who just woke up.

Today it is the right day for an announcement...


----------



## I like music

Can we please promise each other there are going to be no April Fools shenanigans today?


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Can we please promise each other there are going to be no April Fools shenanigans today?


I'd like to think we got that out of our systems yesterday! That said, I'm not going to believe another word any of you say.


----------



## Montisquirrel

I like music said:


> Can we please promise each other there are going to be no April Fools shenanigans today?



Do you think you can handle this by yourself a whole day ?


----------



## I like music

I've got v1.31 but why can't I download v1.4?!









Oh right, because it hasn't been released yet.
Fuck, I'm sorry again, everyone!


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Can we please promise each other there are going to be no April Fools shenanigans today?


Hahaha my sentiments exactly. And THEN I saw who posted it!? Haha


----------



## I like music

Montisquirrel said:


> Do you think you can handle this by yourself a whole day ?



Apparently not


----------



## wlinart

He has another 18 minutes left to be in time for American Samoa time


----------



## DANIELE

Imagine if there is no release at all, truly....


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> Imagine if there is no release at all, truly....


Ah, there has to be. We know (don't we?) that the legal issue is resolved; so it can only be things like bugs or tweaks or perfecting the website or updating the shop or finessing the walkthrough or something


----------



## DANIELE

wlinart said:


> He has another 18 minutes left to be in time for American Samoa time



*Here*'s where it is stil tuesday, if you'd like to follow.



decredis said:


> Ah, there has to be. We know (don't we?) that the legal issue is resolved; so it can only be things like bugs or tweaks or perfecting the website or updating the shop or finessing the walkthrough or something



I doubt that there are bugs, the update is finished from a long time now, so maybe it is something regarding the site or maybe Aaron is just laughing hard reading our comments.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> *Here*'s where it is stil tuesday, if you'd like to follow.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that there are bugs, the update is finished from a long time now, so maybe it is something regarding the site or maybe Aaron is just laughing hard reading our comments.



Also, @aaronventure is probably very busy with other day to day stuff, working from home, maybe even has a day job to worry about, a family he may need to home school right now and a ton of other stuff other than to worry about us peeps. Take your time man, it will be worth our wait. Speaking for myself (just a hobbyist) I am not scoring @decredis Netflix epic trailers, so I’ll wait patiently, even if the release is delayed to summer, autumn or 2021. Visiting and spamming this forum thread has now become a goal in and of itself haha.


----------



## El Buhdai

If not the update I wish we'd at least get some sort of announcement/explanation


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> If not the update I wish we'd at least get some sort of announcement/explanation



No please, not today.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> No please, not today.



Ah you're right lol


----------



## DANIELE

Just for everyone to know March is officially ended all over the world.


----------



## Heledir

Please, Mr. Venture...


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Can we please promise each other there are going to be no April Fools shenanigans today?



IT'S OU..... oh... um... uh......

nevermind


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> IT'S OU..... oh... um... uh......
> 
> nevermind



The best part will be that when it _does_ come out, no one will believe it is here.


----------



## Sean J

My first thought was that a legal issues barely resolving... may not have fully resolved. Whoever its with could be intentionally trying to delay him (even from talking about it) for all we know. The possibilities are wide. I just hope Aaron is in good health and hasn't had a life crisis (for his sake, not ours). He's been pretty good about updating us.

In the meantime, the best thing this thread can have is more demos.  lol


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> My first thought was that a legal issues barely resolving... may not have fully resolved. Whoever its with could be intentionally trying to delay him (even from talking about it) for all we know. The possibilities are wide. I just hope Aaron is in good health and hasn't had a life crisis (for his sake, not ours). He's been pretty good about updating us.
> 
> In the meantime, the best thing this thread can have is more demos.  lol



New financial year for some companies. You don't want too much profit in the 2019 cycle  so makes sense to release them now! (Absolute wild stretch of a guess!)

But yes, hopefully Aaron takes all of this as lighthearted commentary. Absolutely no pressure. Every release is basically a bonus, that a lot of other developers would have charged us for.


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> New financial year for some companies. You don't want too much profit in the 2019 cycle  so makes sense to release them now! (Absolute wild stretch of a guess!)
> 
> But yes, hopefully Aaron takes all of this as lighthearted commentary. Absolutely no pressure. Every release is basically a bonus, that a lot of other developers would have charged us for.



You were right anyway, he never specified the year when he said march!


----------



## nyxl

That was really worth the wait  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ (https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass)


----------



## shawnsingh

nyxl said:


> That was really worth the wait  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ (https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass)



Wow, this sounds great!


----------



## doctoremmet

shawnsingh said:


> Wow, this sounds great!


Yeah. Stock, Venture & Waterman. My favorite producers


----------



## doctoremmet

It is alleged that a very early beta version of IB (v0.1) can be heard on this track. It took about 35 years to get out of beta


----------



## Sean J

Dream is Collapsing... oh geez. That's the most beautiful level of humor I've seen on the thread yet.



nyxl said:


> That was really worth the wait  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ (https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass)



I like music and myself... we're the amateurs at this April 1st business.

We all really ought to band together whenever a new release comes out. Then again, maybe that could be a bad thing. Our crazy side comes out with the funny too.


----------



## El Buhdai

Well, to non-owners of Infinite, the offer still stands. Let me know what classic melodies you want to hear from certain instruments and I'll send demos.


----------



## Montisquirrel

Funny thing is, I don't own any of the Infinite libraries and because of the situation right now I also can't afford it, but I come here anyway to check for the update, new demos and (hopefully) a new walkthrough video. Hope to be an owner of IB and IW (and IS and IP) in the near future though.


----------



## I like music

He taunts us from behind a banner ad ...


----------



## doctoremmet

Montisquirrel said:


> Funny thing is, I don't own any of the Infinite libraries and because of the situation right now I also can't afford it, but I come here anyway to check for the update, new demos and (hopefully) a new walkthrough video. Hope to be an owner of IB and IW (and IS and IP) in the near future though.


Totally understandable. Uncertain times definitely call for stable and well thought through (financial) decision making. And this group of people with a specific interest in the Infinite Series of instruments is one of the funniest lots I’ve come across on the entirety of the internet. So I hope we get to enjoy some demos soon! Take care and eventually you’ll join the ranks and own IB / IW!


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> He taunts us from behind a banner ad ...


I literary spotted that same ad today and my heart jumped


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Well, to non-owners of Infinite, the offer still stands. Let me know what classic melodies you want to hear from certain instruments and I'll send demos.



"Dream is Collapsing" has low sustaining brass. There's lots of whole and some half notes in there. Simple crescendos. I mean, it's Zimmer. A minimalist orchestration highlights the need to blend well. For tone, 1.4 will obviously be better. But even more aggressive "Blap!" and "Braaam!" examples would be nice. I always shrivel inside sharing old work. If anything just listen to 10 seconds of this learning experiment. I'd like to hear Infinite pushed dynamically. I'm not just talking about a forte note... but a forte performance.

Indiana Jones is nice, Maynard trumpet is nice, but I suppose there's a lot of that going around. I hate asking this question... truly... but does anyone have any demos that are more modern and cliche? ... or perhaps that just highlight dynamics in a minimal and uniform way?


----------



## Keith Levenson

Mr. Venture is certainly the most popular guy on the web today!


----------



## doctoremmet

Keith Levenson said:


> Mr. Venture is certainly the most popular guy on the web today!


Out of sheer curiosity: does The Who use the Infinite instruments? That would be extremely cool to know...


----------



## Keith Levenson

doctoremmet said:


> Out of sheer curiosity: does The Who use the Infinite instruments? That would be extremely cool to know...


I'm waiting to get my hands on the product and see if it can be useful to us. We've been touring and picking up local symphonies so it hasn't been an issue.....yet.


----------



## doctoremmet

Keith Levenson said:


> I'm waiting to get my hands on the product and see if it can be useful to us. We've been touring and picking up local symphonies so it hasn't been an issue.....yet.


Cool. I only have IW right now and it is indeed very very good (and musical and easy to use). So, I guess you will like it as will the band.


----------



## shawnsingh




----------



## ProfoundSilence

ohh shhhhhift


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


>




You guys are so evil and have pranked me so many times that I legit got excited and thought I was tricked again, but nope, it's real this time! YES!


----------



## decredis

Hoorah! Brassmas at last!  

Can someone tell me how to get the price I paid for IW deducted from the price of the IW/IB bundle when buying the bundle? (I think that's the crossgrade offer that's available, isn't it?)


----------



## aaronventure

decredis said:


> Hoorah! Brassmas at last!
> 
> Can someone tell me how to get the price I paid for IW deducted from the price of the IW/IB bundle when buying the bundle? (I think that's the crossgrade offer that's available, isn't it?)


Yes, just fill out the form over at www.aaronventure.com/bundles .


----------



## Sean J

The second that horn blared, I felt a warmth, a joy... something... within me... saying "yes Sean, it's real... and it's beautiful"

Aaron, well done!


----------



## x-dfo

Yow it's good. I didn't try 1.3 so not sure how it compares but I'm really impressed. What's the deal with the ww update? Is that to come or was everything updates at once?


----------



## aaronventure

x-dfo said:


> Yow it's good. I didn't try 1.3 so not sure how it compares but I'm really impressed. What's the deal with the ww update? Is that to come or was everything updates at once?


Woodwinds will be getting all the improvements in their next update. I was also planning to have the big concert hall ready by then following the failure of my dealings earlier this year, but the universe doesn't seem to like that idea. Regarding that we'll go with the flow, but everything else is already being worked on. Oboes are already done. 

It's gonna be a coupe of months.


----------



## decredis

aaronventure said:


> Yes, just fill out the form over at www.aaronventure.com/bundles .


Many thanks, and for the swift processing of the crossgrade request. I've bought it and I'm so looking forward to trying it out when I get my equipment out of storage over the weekend. Thanks for all your hard work and commitment.


----------



## Nicola74

Great walkthrough!!
I already own IB, what do I have to do to get I.B.1.4? Will I receive a mail or what?


----------



## decredis

This isn't just like Christmas, it's like the overdue Christmas in Narnia after the end of the reign of eternal winter of the White Witch, and as such is even sweeter.


----------



## Sean J

Just bought Infinite!!! MWA HA HA HA!!!
Well, technically my brother bought it for me per a deal we made. Still.... I have the bundle...


----------



## aaronventure

Nicola74 said:


> Great walkthrough!!
> I already own IB, what do I have to do to get I.B.1.4? Will I receive a mail or what?


Your old download link should work for the next 7 days. If you can't find it, send me a request for a new one here.


----------



## DANIELE

DANIELE said:


> Aaron, regarding this statement I only have a little question: you said that this update will bring light detuning and delay on each instruments (plus other things under the hood maybe) to help the ensemble playing more as a group of separate musicians. Here you are saying that if the brass stick out it is better to play every single line alone to add randomness etc...
> 
> Sometimes I do it, sometimes not, it is a matter of how much time I have at my disposal. Are you telling that eventually it is still better to keep some delay randomization on each instrument if you would like to play and record every group like an ensemble?
> 
> Thank you.



Ehi @aaronventure may I repeat the answer?

Thank you.


----------



## El Buhdai

Aaron, I gotta thank you for delivering us this update. I was expecting to wait another few weeks to a month when it didn't come Tuesday, but this made my whole week since I'm on Spring Break and don't have to do school work every day. I was literally looking forward to the Tuesday release date ever since you mentioned it and I wanted to use Infinite Brass to destress and enjoy my break.

Unfortunately the United States' second-world wifi infrastructure in my area will prevent me from using the updated library tonight unless I stay up past 4 am, but I will most certainly start my day with Infinite Brass tomorrow. I'm absolutely thrilled to drop these instruments (especially the new trumpets) into all of my ongoing projects. Cheers!


----------



## aaronventure

DANIELE said:


> Ehi @aaronventure may I repeat the answer?
> 
> Thank you.


1.4 adds Humanization and Attack Accuracy, as well as improvements to the ensemble sound outside of these two features. Check out the "Ensembles" section of the walkthrough.

I would still perform instruments individually if the line sticks out (_ff_ trumpets, _ff_ trombones etc.) because humanization doesn't affect note duration.

Other than that, copy and pasting when it's thick should get the job done. If the Fanfare for the Common Man demo sounds good to you, then you're good to go. I always try and get away with performing the whole group, and if it doesn't work then I copy and paste to individual instruments and try if I can get away with reperforming just one, then just two etc. 



El Buhdai said:


> Aaron, I gotta thank you for delivering us this update.


My pleasure, and pardon the delay.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> 1.4 adds Humanization and Attack Accuracy, as well as improvements to the ensemble sound outside of these two features. Check out the "Ensembles" section of the walkthrough.
> 
> I would still perform instruments individually if the line sticks out (_ff_ trumpets, _ff_ trombones etc.) because humanization doesn't affect note duration.
> 
> Other than that, copy and pasting when it's thick should get the job done. If the Fanfare for the Common Man demo sounds good to you, then you're good to go. I always try and get away with performing the whole group, and if it doesn't work then I copy and paste to individual instruments and try if I can get away with reperforming just one, then just two etc.
> 
> 
> My pleasure, and pardon the delay.



You're an absolutel legend! btw which 'old link' should I use, or will any of them work?

e.g. the link I used to down my very first (version 1) when it came out, or will any of the fastspring update (1.2 or 1.3) links be active?


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> You're an absolutel legend! btw which 'old link' should I use, or will any of them work?
> 
> e.g. the link I used to down my very first (version 1) when it came out, or will any of the fastspring update (1.2 or 1.3) links be active?


They're essentially all the same. They're live for the next 7 days. These send a download request to the server which automatically starts the download of the latest version.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> They're essentially all the same. They're live for the next 7 days. These send a download request to the server which automatically starts the download of the latest version.



Already on its way. Now I can enjoy watching the walkthrough as I have my breakfast. Update looks like it'll be better than expected!


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> 1.4 adds Humanization and Attack Accuracy, as well as improvements to the ensemble sound outside of these two features. Check out the "Ensembles" section of the walkthrough.
> 
> I would still perform instruments individually if the line sticks out (_ff_ trumpets, _ff_ trombones etc.) because humanization doesn't affect note duration.
> 
> Other than that, copy and pasting when it's thick should get the job done. If the Fanfare for the Common Man demo sounds good to you, then you're good to go. I always try and get away with performing the whole group, and if it doesn't work then I copy and paste to individual instruments and try if I can get away with reperforming just one, then just two etc.
> 
> 
> My pleasure, and pardon the delay.



OK understood!!

I still soffer from the fear "I like music" mentioned a while ago but I'm trying to overcome it and I'm slowly achieving good results. Still the time is a problem as I said in my previous post.

I'll watch the walkthrough for sure, I'm in work time now so I still didn't manage to do it. If I go for copy/paste thing then I always manage to do some humanization (and with the new midi lanes improvements in Reaper it is easier), I'll try with and without the delay plugin I applied on every instrument and I'll post my impressions this evening.

I will try to record more and more every instrument separately in the future.

Oh and thank you again for another GREAT update.


----------



## doctoremmet

@aaronventure Thank you for all your hard work and patience with our impatience <3. It looks very good. I’v sent you a message through the site regarding crossgrading from IW to the bundle. Take your time with that, I can wait. Tons of demos to listen to!


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> OK understood!!
> 
> I still soffer from the fear "I like music" mentioned a while ago but I'm trying to overcome it and I'm slowly achieving good results. Still the time is a problem as I said in my previous post.
> 
> I'll watch the walkthrough for sure, I'm in work time now so I still didn't manage to do it. If I go for copy/paste thing then I always manage to do some humanization (and with the new midi lanes improvements in Reaper it is easier), I'll try with and without the delay plugin I applied on every instrument and I'll post my impressions this evening.
> 
> I will try to record more and more every instrument separately in the future.
> 
> Oh and thank you again for another GREAT update.



I use a strategy you might be interested in. I'm a sequencer because I have almost no keyboard skill. I was concerned about instrument sections sounding "dead" if I loaded the whole ensemble in one patch and wrote for them all at once. On the other hand, I was also concerned about the time it takes to sequence every instrument individually. I found something very early on that for me accomplishes the best of both worlds.

Divide your sections intelligently. Here's how I do it for French Horns:

1st French Horn (for solos), 2 French Horns, 3 French Horns.

So not only does this total to the 6 horns I want for most full-orchestral projects, but I can also create divisi in every possible combination from 1 to 6. If I need less power for a specific cue I can also limit my section size to 1, 2, 3 horns, etc. all the way to 6 just by combining the numbers, and instead of having to write a 6-horn line 6 times, I only have to do it three times. You can still humanize things fairly well while only writing half the lines. Now, in 1.3 this technique still somewhat limited trill potential (I can send an example tomorrow if you're interested in what it sounds like using my technique) and there was no way around that, but with 1.4's improved unison and simulated "pitchiness", it may come out better.

Here's how I'd divide the other sections:

1st Trumpet, 2nd Trumpet, 2 Trumpets (3rd & 4th)
1st Trombone, 2 Trombones (2nd & 3rd), Bass Trombone

You write less and you still get more diverse performances than you would if you combined your section into one patch.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I use a strategy you might be interested in. I'm a sequencer because I have almost no keyboard skill. I was concerned about instrument sections sounding "dead" if I loaded the whole ensemble in one patch and wrote for them all at once. On the other hand, I was also concerned about the time it takes to sequence every instrument individually. I found something very early on that for me accomplishes the best of both worlds.
> 
> Divide your sections intelligently. Here's how I do it for French Horns:
> 
> 1st French Horn (for solos), 2 French Horns, 3 French Horns.
> 
> So not only does this total to the 6 horns I want for most full-orchestral projects, but I can also create divisi in every possible combination from 1 to 6. If I need less power for a specific cue I can also limit my section size to 1, 2, 3 horns, etc. all the way to 6 just by combining the numbers, and instead of having to write a 6-horn line 6 times, I only have to do it three times. It also leads to results where you can still humanize things fairly well while only writing half the lines. Now, in 1.3 this technique still somewhat limited trill potential (I can send an example tomorrow if you're interested in what it sounds like using my technique) and there was no way around that, but with 1.4's improved unison and simulated "pitchiness", it may come out better.
> 
> Here's how I'd divide the other sections:
> 
> 1st Trumpet, 2nd Trumpet, 2 Trumpets (3rd & 4th)
> 1st Trombone, 2 Trombones (2nd & 3rd), Bass Trombone
> 
> You write less and you still get more diverse performances than you would if you combined your section into one patch.



It may be a very good idea. Yeah I'm interested in your example.

I must say that unfortunately my life followed another route but if I could go back in time I'd take some serious piano lessons. I started many years ago and I did it for 3 years, then, with the same master, I started learning composition so I had to make a choice. Now I'd like to learn play piano again but, you know...choices.

That said I'd like to learn more to use piano to record my tracks but my desk configuration force me to use it as less as possible and I'm thinking to change it but I have to plan it whisely.

I actually prefer single instruments control but your idea could bring me to update my template to have both solutions implemented without putting more weight in my template.
This evening I will test the ensemble beahvior of this update, after I watched the walkthrough.


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> I use a strategy you might be interested in. I'm a sequencer because I have almost no keyboard skill. I was concerned about instrument sections sounding "dead" if I loaded the whole ensemble in one patch and wrote for them all at once. On the other hand, I was also concerned about the time it takes to sequence every instrument individually. I found something very early on that for me accomplishes the best of both worlds.
> 
> Divide your sections intelligently


This is good advice. But also now if you have Humanize enabled, you can just copy and paste MIDI to instruments you would otherwise have grouped. Perform them both at the same time or do one then copy and paste, while still having the option to really go into detail. If you need to play chords, you can now just perform one and (if the timing is the same) just move the notes on the copies.


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## I like music

That Mozarteum is sounding tasty.


----------



## Nicola74

aaronventure said:


> Your old download link should work for the next 7 days. If you can't find it, send me a request for a new one here.


Thanks, It worked perfectly, downloading...


----------



## I like music

Anyone got demos? I won't have a chance to play with the until later. Would love to hear what you're all doing!


----------



## Wenlone

Infinite Brass was already great. This update makes it even better. 

But i have one question. I asked this earlier but couldn't receive answer.

What is the RAM usage of scripts ? Website says "~15MB of RAM usage per instrument " but what i can tell is from the pictures and video it's just samples ram usage. Of course all the scripts going to use some ram but infinite series is all about scripts.

Other than that price is really good for what i get. I think i'll get this library.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Really excellent Aaron! I was afraid that these brass would be a little duplication with those that I already have but absolutely not: they alone sum up several high-end libraries that I have with of course this great asset which is the flexibility inherent in the technology that you have implemented. No more endless keyswitch and long loading times. Sounds great! And even if it is not always perfect, in the end it is often more because of the game used than actually the virtual instrument. If I had to keep just only one library for a symphonic style it would be it. I, like many musicians here, waited for this update, but what a success, it was so worth it! I am now waiting for the update of my Infinite woodwinds (which I dream of seeing rise to the same level as IB). Bravo Aaron! I now hope that a much wider audience will be seduced as we are.

Pierre Vigneron


----------



## x-dfo

aaronventure said:


> Woodwinds will be getting all the improvements in their next update. I was also planning to have the big concert hall ready by then following the failure of my dealings earlier this year, but the universe doesn't seem to like that idea. Regarding that we'll go with the flow, but everything else is already being worked on. Oboes are already done.
> 
> It's gonna be a coupe of months.


No problem, just wasn't sure what I had heard, yep it's a WEIRD year for sure.

I was also curious - does Infinite work with other reverbs? Like if I put the mic on Studio - is that enough to allow another reverb to work? Does it have to be studio/soloist for me to use external plugins to manipulate the spacing/pan? I was a little lost in the convolution/space explanation.

Thanks again, the brass sounds great.


----------



## Denkii

Oh wow this looks interesting.
Just using a single patch for all articulations sounds sooo tempting.
But then I look at my barely existing keyboard playing skills and think it would be a pain having to edit the midi in the sequencer until you get the result you're looking for.


----------



## I like music

Denkii said:


> Oh wow this looks interesting.
> Just using a single patch for all articulations sounds sooo tempting.
> But then I look at my barely existing keyboard playing skills and think it would be a pain having to edit the midi in the sequencer until you get the result you're looking for.


I don't play instruments in and in my experience this library is the easiest of the lot to edit. That's because you're only editing the velocity, modulation, and vibrato. And because of their unparalled consistency you can draw a curve knowing how it'll sound.


----------



## doctoremmet

All you people that actually draw in notes and do tons of edits: I admire you a lot! I can only play, which is why Aaron is such a lifesaver for me. I tend to go screaming mad as soon as I need to really dive in the nitty gritty details of my DAW “data” (Ableton Live). Respect!


----------



## Denkii

doctoremmet said:


> All you people that actually draw in notes and do tons of edits: I admire you a lot! I can only play, which is why Aaron is such a lifesaver for me. I tend to go screaming mad as soon as I need to really dive in the nitty gritty details of my DAW “data” (Ableton Live). Respect!


Yeah I would not want to edit all those controllers in Live either 
It's a pain to keep an overview if you have more than one parameter modulated in Live.


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> Oh wow this looks interesting.
> Just using a single patch for all articulations sounds sooo tempting.
> But then I look at my barely existing keyboard playing skills and think it would be a pain having to edit the midi in the sequencer until you get the result you're looking for.



I'm in the same boat. I sequence everything too. Get Infinite Brass, you won't regret it.


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> Yeah I would not want to edit all those controllers in Live either
> It's a pain to keep an overview if you have more than one parameter modulated in Live.


😂


----------



## Denkii

El Buhdai said:


> I'm in the same boat. I sequence everything too. Get Infinite Brass, you won't regret it.


I mean...simply not having to keyswitch between staccato and legato sounds so very tempting.
Depending on the library I work with, I even still do it the old 1 track per articulation way...I guess not a lot would change with these libraries in that regard because I could still just overdub the same recording and punch in new notes wherever I want them and edit afterwards.

But I also have to be honest enough that I would not get out of these libraries what I consider their main appeal which is the playability. It's hard to decide without being able to try working with them :/


----------



## Denkii

Also I cannot really find good examples for ensembles made with infinite brass or woodwind.
Do you guys have some examples for me? I would appreciate them very much.


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> I mean...simply not having to keyswitch between staccato and legato sounds so very tempting.
> Depending on the library I work with, I even still do it the old 1 track per articulation way...I guess not a lot would change with these libraries in that regard because I could still just overdub the same recording and punch in new notes wherever I want them and edit afterwards.
> 
> But I also have to be honest enough that I would not get out of these libraries what I consider their main appeal which is the playability. It's hard to decide without being able to try working with them :/


The sound and tone are maybe even bigger selling points. As is the sheer wealth of the number of instruments and how good it sounds to create ensembles out of them (versus pre-recorded ensemble sample patches of regular libraries). You just lose all the machine gunning, phasing and other artefacts a lot of other instruments bring to the table.


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> Also I cannot really find good examples for ensembles made with infinite brass or woodwind.
> Do you guys have some examples for me? I would appreciate them very much.


I guess the 1.4 ensemble demos are all in the making. It appears @El Buhdai is very active making those. Maybe he will have some available shortly?


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> I mean...simply not having to keyswitch between staccato and legato sounds so very tempting.
> Depending on the library I work with, I even still do it the old 1 track per articulation way...I guess not a lot would change with these libraries in that regard because I could still just overdub the same recording and punch in new notes wherever I want them and edit afterwards.
> 
> But I also have to be honest enough that I would not get out of these libraries what I consider their main appeal which is the playability. It's hard to decide without being able to try working with them :/



Another HUGE selling point for me was the completely imperceptible dynamics crossfades. I didn't believe it when I saw it in the Infinite Brass walkthrough last year, but it's true. You'll never be able to tell exactly where the crossfades are.


----------



## I like music

I'm going to redo my First Contact mockup and this time include the whole thing (rather than the middle section) so you can hear the ensembles!


----------



## easynam

Hi, piano roll clicking lurker here to say that even when just clicking in notes, drawing in vague scribbled mod wheel shapes, and doing no extra tweaking, this library is way easier to make sound like whats in my head than anything else I've ever used.


----------



## doctoremmet

doctoremmet said:


> The sound and tone are maybe even bigger selling points. As is the sheer wealth of the number of instruments and how good it sounds to create ensembles out of them (versus pre-recorded ensemble sample patches of regular libraries). You just lose all the machine gunning, phasing and other artefacts a lot of other instruments bring to the table.


This video by @Cory Pelizzari drew my attention to Aaron’s instruments in the first place. Not a showcase of (woodwind) ensembles per se, but it does sum up nicely what I like about the whole concept. While watching this, keep in mind the 1.4 iteration of IB has evolved and made noticeable improvements over this version of IW that’s on display. That being said, this does sound incredible to my ears still. Loving it. Cory can truly play and bring out the inherent expressiveness of the instrument. Maybe he will have a look at IB1.4 soon, that would be cool. Of all the reviewers that are active members of this community, he is one of the few that can actually play instead of just trigger samples, which is great if one wants to get an understanding of what can be done with an instrument!

Anyway, just wanted to point you to this in case you missed it.


----------



## x-dfo

easynam said:


> Hi, piano roll clicking lurker here to say that even when just clicking in notes, drawing in vague scribbled mod wheel shapes, and doing no extra tweaking, this library is way easier to make sound like whats in my head than anything else I've ever used.


I'm in the same boat generally and I agree 100%. 



doctoremmet said:


> This video by @Cory Pelizzari drew my attention to Aaron’s instruments in the first place. Not a showcase of (woodwind) ensembles per se, but it does sum up nicely what I like about the whole concept. While watching this, keep in mind the 1.4 iteration of IB has evolved and made noticeable improvements over this version of IW that’s on display. That being said, this does sound incredible to my ears still. Loving it. Cory can truly play and bring out the inherent expressiveness of the instrument. Maybe he will have a look at IB1.4 soon, that would be cool. Of all the reviewers that are active members of this community, he is one of the few that can actually play instead of just trigger samples, which is great of one wants to get an understanding of what can be done with an instrument!
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to point you to this in case you missed it.



This sold me on WW and infinite in general.


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> This video by @Cory Pelizzari drew my attention to Aaron’s instruments in the first place. Not a showcase of (woodwind) ensembles per se, but it does sum up nicely what I like about the whole concept. While watching this, keep in mind the 1.4 iteration of IB has evolved and made noticeable improvements over this version of IW that’s on display. That being said, this does sound incredible to my ears still. Loving it. Cory can truly play and bring out the inherent expressiveness of the instrument. Maybe he will have a look at IB1.4 soon, that would be cool. Of all the reviewers that are active members of this community, he is one of the few that can actually play instead of just trigger samples, which is great if one wants to get an understanding of what can be done with an instrument!
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to point you to this in case you missed it.




Cory really knows how to "play to the samples" in every review. Doesn't he owe us a review for Infinite Brass or did he ever release it? I had a hunch that after a while he was waiting for 1.4 to make the review better.


----------



## Denkii

I like music said:


> I'm going to redo my First Contact mockup and this time include the whole thing (rather than the middle section) so you can hear the ensembles!


Cannot wait. Thanks!


----------



## doctoremmet

24 more posts and we hit #1000.
I feel it would be fitting to reserve that one for @El Buhdai DEFINITIVE 1.4 ensemble mockup demo.

So as soon as we hit #999 please stop posting and leave the spot for him.

I am counting on your cooperation!


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> Cory really knows how to "play to the samples" in every review. Doesn't he owe us a review for Infinite Brass or did he ever release it? I had a hunch that after a while he was waiting for 1.4 to make the review better.


I kind of went looking for one a while back, but I don’t think @Cory Pelizzari ever did do the Infinite Brass review.


----------



## Denkii

Will strings or percussion be the next release?
I'm hoping for strings because for percussion I truly have all bases covered already. Any info on ETA for that?

Edit: deleted a quote that I put there for no reason


----------



## Cory Pelizzari

doctoremmet said:


> I kind of went looking for one a while back, but I don’t think @Cory Pelizzari ever did do the Infinite Brass review.


I've written the review but I need to cover Con Moto and Spaghetti Western during their intro sales before I can get onto Infinite Brass. For anyone wondering, the brass has been phenomenally improved with the new update and I'm loving the library even more than when I first played it.


----------



## Montisquirrel

If I remember correct Cory already confirmed a IB 1.4 review in a YouTube post just a few days ago.

Edit: ok, see post above


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> Will strings or percussion be the next release?
> I'm hoping for strings because for percussion I truly have all bases covered already. Any info on ETA for that?
> 
> Edit: deleted a quote that I put there for no reason


I believe Aaron has confirmed that all the actual recording for Strings has been finished and that will be the next one to be released, sometime later this year. Percussion will likely be a 2021 release.


----------



## Denkii

Cory Pelizzari said:


> I've written the review but I need to cover Con Moto and Spaghetti Western during their intro sales before I can get onto Infinite Brass. For anyone wondering, the brass has been phenomenally improved with the new update and I'm loving the library even more than when I first played it.


Why would you say that :(
You know now I have to start saving for it.


----------



## Denkii

What I find interesting is that these libraries seem to have almost some sort of cult following but it's none of the usual suspects from this forum.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Anyone got demos? I won't have a chance to play with the until later. Would love to hear what you're all doing!



Yeah, I got one right here. I've named this piece "download progress bar". Listen very carefully and you'll hear it

.....


----------



## AEF

so tempted to get this now.


----------



## aaronventure

Wenlone said:


> What is the RAM usage of scripts ? Website says "~15MB of RAM usage per instrument " but what i can tell is from the pictures and video it's just samples ram usage. Of course all the scripts going to use some ram but infinite series is all about scripts.


If you load up all the instruments, the project size doesn't go up more than 3 MB. Here's my track template in Reaper, which is using 20 instruments





Load times are blazingly fast.



pierrevigneron said:


> (which I dream of seeing rise to the same level as IB)


You can indeed expect the step-up in quality similar to IB 1.3.1. -> IB 1.4. I'll post a short Oboe demo later this week.



Denkii said:


> But then I look at my barely existing keyboard playing skills and think it would be a pain having to edit the midi in the sequencer until you get the result you're looking for.


You still just draw a note of the length you desire, set the velocity and draw the "breath amount" curve into CC1. Much quicker than changing between articulations, finding the right one.



Denkii said:


> examples for ensembles made with infinite brass


You can find demos on the website. Fanfare for the Common man and Sustineo are brass ensemble and percussion only. The Rite of Spring demo will be coming back online in the next day or two.


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> 24 more posts and we hit #1000.
> I feel it would be fitting to reserve that one for @El Buhdai DEFINITIVE 1.4 ensemble mockup demo.
> 
> So as soon as we hit #999 please stop posting and leave the spot for him.
> 
> I am counting on your cooperation!



I'm hardly worth that sort of accommodation, but if the people want a demo, I can make a demo! @DANIELE suggested I redo the last one I posted with all Infinite Brass and no Hollywood Brass. I'm open to doing that so everyone can hear what it would sound like in an adventure context.


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> What I find interesting is that these libraries seem to have almost some sort of cult following but it's none of the usual suspects from this forum.



That's because it seems like people either really love them or really can't stand the sound of them with very little in between. I rarely participate in this forum outside of this thread, but I'm on almost every page here. 

I dunno, I just find it far less exciting discussing the 1000th "new" strings library Spitfire decides to release every month, and a lot of the conversations outside of here are very Spitfire-related because they make sure you can't escape their marketing. In addition, the people here are the coolest and I've dealt with a few people who were condescending when I expressed my opinion respectfully.

If Aaron keeps up his work, and if we continue supporting him financially with new projects (which I plan to), we may have something _truly_ new and revolutionary, and once he lays the groundwork, it's possible some of the bigger players like Spitfire may take notice. At that point, his work will benefit everyone.

I don't mind being an early adopter and putting up with some of the tone issues early on if I get to help provide feedback that helps build these libraries.


----------



## axb312

I would also like to hear IB in a more epic/ zimmerish context....


----------



## jamwerks

I'm pretty impressed by the agility and the sound. One strong point here over VSL imo is being able to have 3 ir perspectives (close, tree, ambience) running simultaneously. IINM that wouldn't work with VSL since theirs aren't phase aligned. We are now so used to hearing 3 or more signals simultaneously that a simple tree perspective just doesn't cut it any more. 

I would like to hear a side by side comparison between a CineBrass or JXLB horn or trumpet figure followed by these. I would need to hear side by side how close we are.


----------



## DANIELE

Denkii said:


> Will strings or percussion be the next release?
> I'm hoping for strings because for percussion I truly have all bases covered already. Any info on ETA for that?
> 
> Edit: deleted a quote that I put there for no reason



No ETA but as he said a few posts ago the next release will be presumably IW update 1.2. The Percussion library should be the last one, the strings are already in the working while percussions are not, he said that a few days ago.


----------



## DANIELE

axb312 said:


> I would also like to hear IB in a more epic/ zimmerish context....



Did you hear the "Steel Ballrom" demo on the site? It is not Zimmerish but it is pretty loud/epic even if not in the Zimmer style.

I'm used to do something like that but actually it would require some time to be done.


----------



## Sean J

To those who draw notes in:

I've worked that way for years in the piano roll, also trying Notion and Dorico. A friend owned AV's libraries before I did, so I tested what I could before this update. Notion, Dorico, Cubase, Studio One... Keyboard, mouse, wind controller, etc... all of these things are fine and will work as well as your music sounds. I just got a wind controller and I'm not sure it's exactly better at CC and velocity, just expressive without OCD drawing. It's a bit sloppier (human) and thus it's faster than OCD'ing it. But that's true of the other libraries I have too. There's times I'd use the wind controller and times I'll edit by hand. I don't think any one solution is perfectly natural yet. So the MIDI story is the same old MIDI story.

Earlier in the thread I did Infinite demos where I didn't even touch the modwheel at all. I just drew notes in and edited velocity. If you draw it in, I'm sure you have a similar workflow as I've done too. 1) Draw notes, 2) use a humanize tool (S1 or Cubase), 3) tweak a velocity or two by hand if it helps the performance. Infinite is the same way with only one difference. Before you click "humanize" to automatically change every note, there's uniformity. _The workflow and end result is the same._ It's just an aural difference between step 1 & 2.

So no, you don't need a different type of controller for Infinite. It will work just fine. It's just the same old story of "the more human your performance is, the better your mock-up will be". That was my only hesitation with Infinite, but it quickly faded for me after using it.

_Edit: I also edited note lengths in my demo, but only for staccato and in a lot less tedious way than my Spitfire template involves with expression maps. Changing staccatissimo to staccato to portato... editing both the note THEN the map entry... maps aren't nearly as good a workflow as they seem. They are just better than blind keyswitching. Infinite proves that keyswitches really need to die... forever. Anyway, I forgot to mention note length, but it certainly wasn't a chore. Using Infinite was a major relief, in fact._


----------



## youngpokie

El Buhdai said:


> a lot of the conversations outside of here are very Spitfire-related because they make sure you can't escape their marketing.



In marketing speak, they would be defined as someone who bought into the brand and became its advocate. The way Spitfire marketing is set up is simple but also quite clever:

1. Sell the recording location - this translates to that unique "sound!" for a lot of people, which is extremely subjective (and therefore generates a lot of passion --> brand involvement), and it's prohibitively expensive (and futile) to counter head-to-head

2. Diversify and fill in every niche, always based on "sound". So - the unique sound of this or that felt piano and so on. Again, "sound" generates passion = discussion = attention.

3. Active product cycle. A library per month keeps the brand in the spotlight = passion = discussion = attention, etc. And it goes on and on.

Back to IB/IW - I think @aaronventure is countering this primarily with the scripting angle (smaller footprint, load time, articulations and playability). This is great, because it's highlighting one of glaring weaknesses - but it's also potentially dangerous because I wouldn't want the Infinite libraries to be seen as a poor man's budget orchestra (meaning it's something for low RAM and for laptop people).

If I were doing my old job, my suggestion for him would be to market his libraries also against several other weaknesses: one example (of many) is the expressiveness. This is not at all getting the attention it deserves with IB and IW, but consider the CSS vs Spitfire debate - good lessons there.


----------



## doctoremmet

youngpokie said:


> In marketing speak, they would be defined as someone who bought into the brand and became its advocate. The way Spitfire marketing is set up is simple but also quite clever:
> 
> 1. Sell the recording location - this translates to that unique "sound!" for a lot of people, which is extremely subjective (and therefore generates a lot of passion --> brand involvement), and it's prohibitively expensive (and futile) to counter head-to-head
> 
> 2. Diversify and fill in every niche, always based on "sound". So - the unique sound of this or that felt piano and so on. Again, "sound" generates passion = discussion = attention.
> 
> 3. Active product cycle. A library per month keeps the brand in the spotlight = passion = discussion = attention, etc. And it goes on and on.
> 
> Back to IB/IW - I think @aaronventure is countering this primarily with the scripting angle (smaller footprint, load time, articulations and playability). This is great, because it's highlighting one of a few glaring weaknesses - but it's also potentially dangerous because I wouldn't want the Infinite libraries to be seen as a poor man's budget orchestra (meaning it's something for low RAM and for laptop people).
> 
> If I were doing my old job, my suggestion for him would be to market his libraries also against several other weaknesses: one example (of many) is the expressiveness. This is not at all getting the attention it deserves with IB and IW, but consider the CSS vs Spitfire debate - good lessons there.


I get what you’re saying and people are like that. Speaking for myself the actual sound + playability of an instrument is what gets me inspired.

As I described today it was Cory’s review of IW that first made me aware of the instrument. After watching Aaron’s own walkthrough I discovered this thread and those three things absolutely convinced me to invest in both the instrument and perhaps more importantly: the maker and the concept.

Much in the same vein I recently became enamored by Noire. It’s got a nice sound and it is highly playable. And of course; NI went the extra mile and had some great videos produced, with Nils Frahm, his Berlin studio etc.

So for AV and the Infinite brand it may be a good idea to make future investments in some good video content, less technical in a way, and zooming in more on those “intangible” cool factors. It’s what grabs people’s attention, outside the group of converts that populate this thread.


----------



## Denkii

I won't be able to invest until the end of May anyway so hopefully there will be some more content about these libraries (looking at you, Cory).
For me personally the most tempting thing is still only having one instance per instrument/ensemble without having to ever touch keyswitches or expression maps again.


----------



## youngpokie

doctoremmet said:


> So for AV and the Infinite brand it may be a good idea to make future investments in some good video content, less technical in a way, and zooming in more on those “intangible” cool factors. It’s what grabs people’s attention, outside the group of converts that populate this thread.



I completely agree, creating more awareness is always always great!

Also, as others mentioned - demos are key. One common criticism of Spitfire (and VSL) is that they can only do a certain type of sound/style well and suck at others. That's a huge opportunity for AV, but what's the message about its sonic signature, as it were?

The walkthroughs make me think style versatility is potentially a major major opportunity for AV, so it would be great to have demos that cover the popular style.


----------



## doctoremmet

youngpokie said:


> I completely agree, creating more awareness is always always great!
> 
> Also, as others mentioned - demos are key. One common criticism of Spitfire (and VSL) is that they can only do a certain type of sound/style well and suck at others. That's a huge opportunity for AV, but what's the message about its sonic signature, as it were?
> 
> The walkthroughs make me think style versatility is potentially a major major opportunity for AV, so it would be great to have demos that cover the popular style.


Actually, there could be demos covering all sorts of styles really. Showing the versatility of the Infinite range. So, some chamber music, some modern serial stuff and of course some “epic” stuff - whatever that may actually be.

What works for me personally, is watch actual people play and talk about the instrument. What is their particular workflow and approach? Those are cool things to find out. And further I always enjoy background stories as well, e.g. what were some of the sampled instruments? Who played them? What did the recording process look like? IB1.4 has named sound stages. Give me a video on the origin of them! What famous composers and directors have stood on that stage? What legendary symphonies were debuted there? Etc., you get the general idea


----------



## x-dfo

Can someone do me a sanity check and play G3 on the piccolo trumpet and hold it? Mine dies very quickly before I release, keyboard or piano roll has the same effect.


----------



## Sean J

youngpokie said:


> The way Spitfire marketing is set up is simple but also quite clever:



They sell beauty and professionalism (how, where, and who they record) and "easy button" convenient tools for the fast modern media crowd. Add HZ's name to it and suddenly everyone can go from easy to great. It's a tonic anyone would buy. I agree with you, but marketing something as flexible hasn't taken Sample Modeling anywhere near how much market Spitfire or O.T. has gained and consistently held. These companies focus on how transforming their products apparently are on their users. Both companies have said "I wanted to write like JW, so I made this library". Sure, it helps... so I agree with you... but... like we're all also saying...

What helps them a lot more IMHO is that both companies have lots of mock-ups of with lots of users putting out great mock-ups. Even with startup minimal marketing, people showing off great music will sell a library more than someone selling their own product. So basically, we all need to get off this thread and compose more.


----------



## x-dfo

x-dfo said:


> Can someone do me a sanity check and play G3 on the piccolo trumpet and hold it? Mine dies very quickly before I release, keyboard or piano roll has the same effect.


Nevermind, I reloaded the instrument and now it's fine


----------



## x-dfo

scoredfilms said:


> They sell beauty and professionalism (how, where, and who they record) and "easy button" convenient tools for the fast modern media crowd. Add HZ's name to it and suddenly everyone can go from easy to great. It's a tonic anyone would buy. I agree with you, but marketing something as flexible hasn't taken Sample Modeling anywhere near how much market Spitfire or O.T. has gained and consistently held. These companies focus on how transforming their products apparently are on their users. Both companies have said "I wanted to write like JW, so I made this library". Sure, it helps... so I agree with you... but... like we're all also saying...
> 
> What helps them a lot more IMHO is that both companies have lots of mock-ups of with lots of users putting out great mock-ups. Even with startup minimal marketing, people showing off great music will sell a library more than someone selling their own product. So basically, we all need to get off this thread and compose more.


Yep I mean 8dio's mockups are incredible but then you dig into the forums and it's like how is that even possible. I almost bought the BBCSO and was put off by the amount of legitimate issues.

I recently picked up the solo violin/ensemble offering from SM and it has the same wow playability/sound factor infinite has. Either the big companies are pooping themselves and cranking up the marketing or they're throwing huge wads of cash at the new breed programmers like Aaron.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> What helps them a lot more IMHO is that both companies have lots of mock-ups of with lots of users putting out great mock-ups.
> 
> So basically, we all need to get off this thread and compose more.



Demo soon. The writing is wild to show off Infinite's agility.


----------



## doctoremmet

scoredfilms said:


> What helps them a lot more IMHO is that both companies have lots of mock-ups of with lots of users putting out great mock-ups. Even with startup minimal marketing, people showing off great music will sell a library more than someone selling their own product. So basically, we all need to get off this thread and compose more.


True


----------



## El Buhdai

El Buhdai said:


> Demo soon. The writing is wild to show off Infinite's agility.



EDIT: Really wild, so be prepared for that.


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> EDIT: Really wild, so be prepared for that.


----------



## Denkii

El Buhdai said:


> Demo soon. The writing is wild to show off Infinite's agility.


Soon as in today? :D
My popcorn is ready.


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> Soon as in today? :D
> My popcorn is ready.



Given how much fun I'm having with these (spoiler alert) amazing and agile trumpets, that's very possible! I'll probably be playing with this library all day because I've been waiting soooo long to have trumpets this agile with a better tone than the 1.3 ones.

I'm converting one of my current projects that uses Hollywood Brass into an Infinite Brass piece.


----------



## Sean J

x-dfo said:


> ...mockups are incredible but then you dig into the forums and it's like how is that even possible.



It's easy to hear potential and overlook flaws in picking a library. I think we relate the library to ourselves, comparing demos we hear to what we want to write. I'm able to mask most issues with Spitfire. I don't doubt I could mock-up nearly anything with it. But 1) it would take a lot of work in some cases where Infinite would be a simple matter and 2) I'd be working to hide legato problems... lots and lots and lots...... AND LOTS of cheating goes into making mock-ups with any library out there, especially when you get a lot of baked in room. IMHO, StaffPad is better at dealing with these things than a DAW... a lot better, but you still do a lot of cheating. The "sampled performance" approach will always result in that outcome. Great mock-ups are possible with any library. But you can't mock-up anything with any library either. Even owning all the libraries will be limited. That's why Infinite is such a breath of fresh air for me. It's the first sampled instrument to actually act like... well... an instrument.

I'm on WIFI right now, but 7 minutes left until Infinite!


----------



## DANIELE

Oh man, these trumpets, I'm playing with them right now....oh man...I could go on forever...so beautiful...


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> Oh man, these trumpets, I'm playing with them right now....oh man...I could go on forever...so beautiful...



My demo is gonna sound fairly latin in spots thanks to the incredible, and I mean INCREDIBLE bite and vibrato on these new trumpets. Goodbye Hollywood Brass!


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> My demo is gonna sound fairly latin in spots thanks to the incredible, and I mean INCREDIBLE bite and vibrato on these new trumpets. Goodbye Hollywood Brass!



I also said goodbye to HWB, with a tear in my eye. That library was (and will always be) special.

But with this and CSB, I'm well covered.

By the way, if you have CSB, then play a CSB trumpet or a horn, but layered with Infinite, and you've got this superb tone AND 'playable' control. I feel they go well together in that sense.

Also am I hallucinating or can you dial in more vibrato on those trumpets? Perhaps its not a matter of 'more' but more convincing, but something has changed a lot there!

btw I noticed that Aaron has removed the 'character' settings for the instruments. No problem but I found them very useful in the previous version.

I've been 'playing' with IB1.4 today and it is ridiculously impressive.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> btw I noticed that Aaron has removed the 'character' settings for the instruments. No problem but I found them very useful in the previous version.



Yeah I noticed that too, no explanation about it in the walkthrough. Am I missing something?


----------



## aaronventure

DANIELE said:


> Yeah I noticed that too, no explanation about it in the walkthrough. Am I missing something?


That setting was a response to old IRs being a little bit all over the place, consistency-wise. And it was a built-in selection of EQ presets that some might have found useful. It was a band-aid. Modern worked well for tubas, for example. But now you don't need it, because tubas sound great from the get go. 

Sometimes less is more.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> That setting was a response to old IRs being a little bit all over the place, consistency-wise. And it was a built-in selection of EQ presets that some might have found useful. It was a band-aid. Modern worked well for tubas, for example. But now you don't need it, because tubas sound great from the get go.
> 
> Sometimes less is more.



That's what I thought. Go have a well earned drink at a bar.

At home I mean.


----------



## Denkii

Popcorn is gone but I am still waiting for @El Buhdai. :(


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I also said goodbye to HWB, with a tear in my eye. That library was (and will always be) special.
> 
> But with this and CSB, I'm well covered.
> 
> By the way, if you have CSB, then play a CSB trumpet or a horn, but layered with Infinite, and you've got this superb tone AND 'playable' control. I feel they go well together in that sense.
> 
> Also am I hallucinating or can you dial in more vibrato on those trumpets? Perhaps its not a matter of 'more' but more convincing, but something has changed a lot there!
> 
> btw I noticed that Aaron has removed the 'character' settings for the instruments. No problem but I found them very useful in the previous version.
> 
> I've been 'playing' with IB1.4 today and it is ridiculously impressive.



I personally never used it so I don't miss it. The default tone is in a very good place at the moment.

And yeah, those trumpets can waver like crazy! It's more convincing _and_ more vibrato. I'm sure of it.

Am I crazy or is the Tuba a little too dominating out of the box right now?
I'm also thinking the horns are quieter than they should be out of the box compared to the other instruments. You can't hear them as well when you drop them into a project with the 1.3.1 horns and give them the same MIDI.


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> Popcorn is gone but I am still waiting for @El Buhdai. :(



I can get it out today but you'll have to excuse some sloppiness and a less-than-ideal mix as that song was very much a WIP before I dropped new libraries into it. I'm currently dropping the instruments into several different projects lol.


----------



## Denkii

It's just sad that there are no reviews out there except from Cory's, which is outstanding as always.
I enjoy seeing people using libraries in action in a video. You guys already sold me on starting to save, it will just need some time. Until then I will try to find some more content about it.


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> It's just sad that there are no reviews out there except from Cory's, which is outstanding as always.
> I enjoy seeing people using libraries in action in a video. You guys already sold me on starting to save, it will just need some time. Until then I will try to find some more content about it.



I remember being in the exact same boat like 6 months ago. I was sold on the libraries and loved what I heard, but wished I could hear more.

I just rewatched the walkthroughs over and over and read through the threads at the time (which offered much fewer content than this one). Fear not my friend, I'll work extra hard to get this to you as soon as possible, and hopefully today!

EDIT: Infinite Woodwinds will be included as well.


----------



## Dan

Absolutely love the update! What an awesome job Aaron did!

For anyone interested: I just created a very short demo. A little piece with different styles that just happened to come together while I was playing around with 1.4.

Settings and sound are right out of the box, I changed no mic positions or reverbs or anything.

The instrumentation is 4 horns, 2 trumpets, the new piccolo trumpet, 2 tenor trombones and 1 bass trombone.

MIDI file attached as well.


----------



## Kent

Dan said:


> Absolutely love the update! What an awesome job Aaron did!
> 
> For anyone interested: I just created a very short demo. A little piece with different styles that just happened to come together while I was playing around with 1.4.
> 
> Settings and sound are right out of the box, I changed no mic positions or reverbs or anything.
> 
> The instrumentation is 4 horns, 2 trumpets, the new piccolo trumpet, 2 tenor trombones and 1 bass trombone.
> 
> MIDI file attached as well.


that is disgustingly expressive. wow.


----------



## Denkii

ouhh that's nice...ouhh.
I can hear my wallet crying in the distance.


----------



## Keith Levenson

I have been playing around with 1.4 since early afternoon . This is my first experience with Aaron’s products. As musical director of “The Who”, I can safely say I would never use anything else live.
Now, if we could just get back to our gigs.
www.keithlevenson.net


----------



## El Buhdai

At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds! 

I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.

Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.

Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).

For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.


----------



## Geocranium

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
> 
> I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
> 
> Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
> 
> Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
> 
> For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.



Very nice. I'm actually more interested in the strings playing those quick runs at around 1:50.


----------



## El Buhdai

Geocranium said:


> Very nice. I'm actually more interested in the strings playing those quick runs at around 1:50.



When the runs are going up, it's Hollywood Strings' 1st violins patch blended with a 1st violins marcato staccato patch. It's supposed to simulate the ensemble playing controlled, tight runs or a sloppy ostinato. Somewhere between runs and spiccato.

And then on the way down, it's just the runs patch to make it sound like the ensemble is getting sloppy and less controlled during the runs. Here are some pictures for you to visualize it:











I was hoping I did a good job on those cause runs are always hit or miss with sample libraries.


----------



## aaronventure

Dan said:


> Absolutely love the update! What an awesome job Aaron did!
> 
> For anyone interested: I just created a very short demo. A little piece with different styles that just happened to come together while I was playing around with 1.4.
> 
> Settings and sound are right out of the box, I changed no mic positions or reverbs or anything.
> 
> The instrumentation is 4 horns, 2 trumpets, the new piccolo trumpet, 2 tenor trombones and 1 bass trombone.
> 
> MIDI file attached as well.


Wow, amazing! And that looks like it's the raw performance. Hats off.

A quick tip: you might wanna turn off the humanization if you're gonna play trumpets individually, otherwise your runs can get all messed up if they're very fast and the notes are short (in that case you either play low velocity, extend the notes as much as you can so that humanization offset doesn't miss legato, or play each one individually).

I love this a lot! I hope you don't mind, I've added a bit of vibrato to the trumpets and made sure the humanization is off for them. I added a soft compressor on each bus, then slapped some tape on top. Here it is in each room, with more ambient mics rather than close.


----------



## Geocranium

El Buhdai said:


> When the runs are going up, it's Hollywood Strings' 1st violins patch blended with a 1st violins marcato staccato patch. It's supposed to simulate the ensemble playing controlled, tight runs or a sloppy ostinato. Somewhere between runs and spiccato.
> 
> And then on the way down, it's just the runs patch to make it sound like the ensemble is getting sloppy and less controlled during the runs. Here are some pictures for you to visualize it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping I did a good job on those cause runs are always hit or miss with sample libraries.



Thanks for the detailed reply! What's the name of the runs patch you're using, IIRC Hollywood Strings has a couple of them. I'm impressed at how good you got them to sound. I have HWS and I've never been able to get the runs patch to sound convincing at all. The patches sound glitchy and they drop voices constantly. It's because of stuff like that that it doesn't get very much use from me anymore, but I have been looking for a good way to simulate string runs, and I already own HWS so...


----------



## El Buhdai

Geocranium said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply! What's the name of the runs patch you're using, IIRC Hollywood Strings has a couple of them. I'm impressed at how good you got them to sound. I have HWS and I've never been able to get the runs patch to sound convincing at all. The patches sound glitchy and they drop voices constantly. It's because of stuff like that that it doesn't get very much use from me anymore, but I have been looking for a good way to simulate string runs, and I already own HWS so...



"1st Violins Rep Runs Script" for the runs patch and "1st Violins Spic Marc MOD" for the shorts. For the runs, I kept the mod wheel at the bottom for the tightest shorts.

I think I might know why you've been having problems with runs in Hollywood Strings. There are three things I've discovered about the runs in Hollywood Strings:

1. If you have gold or higher, only use Mid mics. The close ones ruin the blur and make things sound jumpy. I only have gold so I don't know if the main or surround mics will mess things up, but I only use mid.

2. They sound better the lower the violins are playing, and sound worse the higher they're playing (notes, note dynamics). They sound the most convincing in the bottom third of the range of the violins. In the top half, you can forget about realism. 

3. Move the expression wheel. It only changes volume and not timbre, but it still works wonders and has a solid range.

And finally, if you have Spaces II, I recommend "San Francisco Hall TS FR 3.4s" to smooth it out nicely.

I hope this helps! I was considering buying a dedicated runs library but when I wrote those runs I decided I've got what I need already with Hollywood Strings.


----------



## Geocranium

El Buhdai said:


> "1st Violins Rep Runs Script" for the runs patch and "1st Violins Spic Marc MOD" for the shorts. For the runs, I kept the mod wheel at the bottom for the tightest shorts.
> 
> I think I might know why you've been having problems with runs in Hollywood Strings. There are three things I've discovered about the runs in Hollywood Strings:
> 
> 1. If you have gold or higher, only use Mid mics. The close ones ruin the blur and make things sound jumpy. I only have gold so I don't know if the main or surround mics will mess things up, but I only use mid.
> 
> 2. They sound better the lower the violins are playing, and sound worse the higher they're playing (notes, note dynamics). They sound the most convincing in the bottom third of the range of the violins. In the top half, you can forget about realism.
> 
> 3. Move the expression wheel. It only changes volume and not timbre, but it still works wonders and has a solid range.
> 
> And finally, if you have Spaces II, I recommend "San Francisco Hall TS FR 3.4s" to smooth it out nicely.
> 
> I hope this helps! I was considering buying a dedicated runs library but when I wrote those runs I decided I've got what I need already with Hollywood Strings.



Thanks! You just saved me money, as I was also contemplating getting a dedicated runs library! I'll fiddle more with what I currently own.


----------



## Denkii

Thanks @El Buhdai !
Unfortunately I like what I heard from you and Dan.
Worst timing to start being interested in a new set of libraries.


----------



## El Buhdai

Geocranium said:


> Thanks! You just saved me money, as I was also contemplating getting a dedicated runs library! I'll fiddle more with what I currently own.



Being a college student with no money to waste on libraries I won't use is the greatest antidote to Gear Acquisition Syndrome. I know Hollywood Strings like the back of my hand. It's capable of far more than most people give it credit for. 

Happy tinkering!


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> Thanks @El Buhdai !
> Unfortunately I like what I heard from you and Dan.
> Worst timing to start being interested in a new set of libraries.



Haha! I can send more stuff if it helps you get your fix. Preferably solos or smaller ensembles.


----------



## Denkii

El Buhdai said:


> Haha! I can send more stuff if it helps you get your fix. Preferably solos or smaller ensembles.


Give me the Prince of thieves overture and you'll be my hero


----------



## cug

The demos sound great so far!

If anyone is taking requests, I’d like to hear trumpets and trombones with mutes in a jazz context. Also I’d love to hear just a bit of the Married Life piece from Michael Giacchino’s UP score. Trumpet with cup mute, would work. Although I think Rick Baptist used a solo tone mute on that part.


----------



## axb312

@aaronventure Would it be possible to offer one patch/ instrument as a trial/ demo?


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I personally never used it so I don't miss it. The default tone is in a very good place at the moment.
> 
> And yeah, those trumpets can waver like crazy! It's more convincing _and_ more vibrato. I'm sure of it.
> 
> Am I crazy or is the Tuba a little too dominating out of the box right now?
> I'm also thinking the horns are quieter than they should be out of the box compared to the other instruments. You can't hear them as well when you drop them into a project with the 1.3.1 horns and give them the same MIDI.


OK it's not just me then! Yes the horns were quieter so going to raise them.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> That setting was a response to old IRs being a little bit all over the place, consistency-wise. And it was a built-in selection of EQ presets that some might have found useful. It was a band-aid. Modern worked well for tubas, for example. But now you don't need it, because tubas sound great from the get go.
> 
> Sometimes less is more.



OK understood, thank you.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> OK it's not just me then! Yes the horns were quieter so going to raise them.



The theory, from what I've studied, says that horns are quieter than other standard brass instruments in real life. For example balancewise 1 Trombone = 2 Horns, 1 Trumpet = 2 Horns, 1 Tuba = 2 Horns. So why don't you raise the number of the horns instead of directly raise them?

I have 12 horns in my template. Another choice would be put them neaerst to the listener if you are using a spatialization plugin.

I found that the euphonium is very louder, the number 1 it peaks over 0dB in my template, I have to move it farther.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> The theory, from what I've studied, says that horns are quieter than other standard brass instruments in real life. For example balancewise 1 Trombone = 2 Horns, 1 Trumpet = 2 Horns, 1 Tuba = 2 Horns. So why don't you raise the number of the horns instead of directly raise them?
> 
> I have 12 horns in my template. Another choice would be put them neaerst to the listener if you are using a spatialization plugin.
> 
> I found that the euphonium is very louder, the number 1 it peaks over 0dB in my template, I have to move it farther.



You're right. What I mean is that I had previously balanced them in my template but when I played the same with my 1.4 they seemed quieter than 1.3.

So it's a simple fix hopefully. Looking forward to the weekend! Superb updaye.


----------



## Dan

aaronventure said:


> Wow, amazing! And that looks like it's the raw performance. Hats off.
> 
> A quick tip: you might wanna turn off the humanization if you're gonna play trumpets individually, otherwise your runs can get all messed up if they're very fast and the notes are short (in that case you either play low velocity, extend the notes as much as you can so that humanization offset doesn't miss legato, or play each one individually).
> 
> I love this a lot! I hope you don't mind, I've added a bit of vibrato to the trumpets and made sure the humanization is off for them. I added a soft compressor on each bus, then slapped some tape on top. Here it is in each room, with more ambient mics rather than close.



I'm glad you like it! To be honest, the performance is not completely raw. I did some editing – mainly velocities and CC1 because I didn't have my good midi keyboard connected, just a cheap miniature one with very poor velocity response and a tiny tiny mod wheel. Plus I'm not an amazing keyboard player so I always edit at least a bit.

Thanks for the tip to turn down humanizing! I had one or the other odd note sometimes when playing back fast runs, and this explains it.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
> 
> I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
> 
> Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
> 
> Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
> 
> For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.



These are superb. Is Demo 1 your own composition? 

Because lets all take a moment to appreciate the superb writing here! Congratulations man. Hope you can have it performed live one day!


----------



## axb312

@aaronventure Will you have a sale when IW 1.2 comes out as well? The tone is not quite there for me right now...


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
> 
> I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
> 
> Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
> 
> Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
> 
> For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.



Love demo 1. great stuff!


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
> 
> I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
> 
> Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
> 
> Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
> 
> For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.


This is just to say: I REALLY liked your demos and appreciate you posting them here. Thanks @El Buhdai !


----------



## Erik

Hi,

Herewith a demo made the brass 1.4. I wrote this piece originally years ago for 2 guitars (which is my main instrument) as a part of 4 Dances 4 2.
It was based on the concept of an Italian fanfare practising in the bloody summer heat, I called this piece '_Fellini, Bellini'._

I arranged this 'back' to a piece for 2 trumpets, horn, trombone and tuba. Unfortunately I didn't succeed with all brass libraries on my HD to make a convincing mockup. This time with the 1.4 IB version I felt so inspired after a few minutes, that I decided to do the whole mockup again.

So, here we go, please do know: I am *not *a brass player myself, plus: all dissonant notes are intentional likewise the somewhat fluctating tempo. Were they maybe drunk these players? Maybe, but quite in tune however.

Hope to have done justice to this wonderful product of Aaron. Cheers!


----------



## axb312

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
> 
> I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
> 
> Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
> 
> Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
> 
> For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.



Can you try something HTTYD ish or Zimmerish?


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> These are superb. Is Demo 1 your own composition?
> 
> Because lets all take a moment to appreciate the superb writing here! Congratulations man. Hope you can have it performed live one day!



Yes, it's original. It's a somewhat modified version of my first composition. I stopped working on it a few years ago because some composer crapped all over it but I came back to it recently right before 1.4 to add Infinite woodwinds to it. You can imagine how weird it is seeing folks on VIC giving it high praise given the reason I quit it. Thank you all!


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Yes, it's original. It's a somewhat modified version of my first composition. I stopped working on it a few years ago because some composer crapped all over it, so you can imagine how weird it is seeing folks on VIC giving it high praise. Thank you all!


Someone capped on it? On here? Tell me their name please and I'll sort them out.


----------



## El Buhdai

axb312 said:


> Can you try something HTTYD ish or Zimmerish?



I must confess, I don't listen to enough Zimmer to know how to make music in his style.



I like music said:


> Someone capped on it? On here? Tell me their name please and I'll sort them out.



Haha, it was just some composer I made the mistake of listening to when I was new. More than anything he (unintentionally) taught me to be very careful who I take feedback from.


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
> 
> I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
> 
> Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
> 
> Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
> 
> For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.


Demo 1 especially is making me more excited than ever (shouldn't be possible) for the brass. Such natural, swaggeringly wild playing. Just amazing that such a thing is possible.


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> Demo 1 especially is making me more excited than ever (shouldn't be possible) for the brass. Such natural, swaggeringly wild playing. Just amazing that such a thing is possible.



This has been the case since the birth of Infinite, and what excites me so much is that the tone has finally caught up to the playability and agility with 1.4. It's still not 1-to-1 with traditional libraries and I'm sure Aaron is aware of that, but it's so close that the difference at this point doesn't even matter because these libraries make composing fun again, and the tone is better than ever! I'm sure folks can hear the fun I was having through that demo. I added a lot more crazy trumpet writing in this piece but ultimately left some of it out because it just didn't fit the composition.


----------



## Tfis

With all the mutes, a big band demo would be nice.


----------



## Sean J

So... the flute...

Yeah yeah, brass, I know. Fine. But... the flute. It's better than I realized.

It's been the only instrument I didn't initially care for. Yes, it needs more of Aaron's wizardry. But I've been discovering Infinite and tweaking the flute. It's not quite as tone-versatile as it needs to be (I wouldn't do Rey's theme with it). I was wrong about the noise with vibrato. It's obviously there. Maybe there's AHDSR tweaks needed, noise tweaks, tone, all the above, or Aaron just has to wave a wand. Either way, here's the Infinite Flute doing Harry Potter. I didn't touch the modwheel, just lowered velocities on low notes and some beat emphasis overall. Then all I did to fine-tune was only related to matching the recording. I accented a few key high notes and shortened some notes on specific phrases per the way the flutist did in the HP album.




It still certainly speaks to how versatile even the flute is as a VI. I'd still gladly compose with it. If I needed to show-off the flutes on slow phrases, then I'd swap it out until Aaron puts out the woodwind update in coming months (or whenever). For now, I still find it very useful. I've been caught up with life for the past couple days... worst... timing... ever. I'd rather write a proper demo than just a snippet of brass. So I'll add something here, but not right away. I'd rather it be a solid piece of music to enjoy to highlight the library better. Also, I got the midi file from someone else. I've heard wrong notes in it, so it's not a perfect JW transcription. The first half is more accurate and I just didn't want to take more time for the flute right now. It's brass time!  Just a heads up in case you noticed.

Aaron, I love the tuba. I upped the close mic for my taste (for attack, not positioning) and wow. I'm in heaven. It's a real treat! Thank you!


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> So... the flute...



If Aaron gives the flutes and english horn the same dramatic rework he gave our trumpets, and improves the bassoons, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds will be even more dangerous than they already are. Just imagine!


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> If Aaron gives the flutes and english horn the same dramatic rework he gave our trumpets, and improves the bassoons, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds will be even more dangerous than they already are. Just imagine!



I'm pretty happy with the double reeds overall, but there's always room to improve. Brass 1.4 really makes me think anything is possible if figured out. I've still EQ'd the instruments, but only subtle tweaks at this point, very much per taste. Finishing these libraries will help boost him, sure. But once he has a solid string offering and great demos, I'm sure everyone will wonder what hit them. Aaron's efforts are the music industry's curve ball... about to get served.


----------



## x-dfo

scoredfilms said:


> So... the flute...
> 
> Yeah yeah, brass, I know. Fine. But... the flute. It's better than I realized.
> 
> It's been the only instrument I didn't initially care for. Yes, it needs more of Aaron's wizardry. But I've been discovering Infinite and tweaking the flute. It's not quite as tone-versatile as it needs to be (I wouldn't do Rey's theme with it). I was wrong about the noise with vibrato. It's obviously there. Maybe there's AHDSR tweaks needed, noise tweaks, tone, all the above, or Aaron just has to wave a wand. Either way, here's the Infinite Flute doing Harry Potter. I didn't touch the modwheel, just lowered velocities on low notes and some beat emphasis overall. Then all I did to fine-tune was only related to matching the recording. I accented a few key high notes and shortened some notes on specific phrases per the way the flutist did in the HP album.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It still certainly speaks to how versatile even the flute is as a VI. I'd still gladly compose with it. If I needed to show-off the flutes on slow phrases, then I'd swap it out until Aaron puts out the woodwind update in coming months (or whenever). For now, I still find it very useful. I've been caught up with life for the past couple days... worst... timing... ever. I'd rather write a proper demo than just a snippet of brass. So I'll add something here, but not right away. I'd rather it be a solid piece of music to enjoy to highlight the library better. Also, I got the midi file from someone else. I've heard wrong notes in it, so it's not a perfect JW transcription. The first half is more accurate and I just didn't want to take more time for the flute right now. It's brass time!  Just a heads up in case you noticed.
> 
> Aaron, I love the tuba. I upped the close mic for my taste (for attack, not positioning) and wow. I'm in heaven. It's a real treat! Thank you!



The euphonia is deadly too, just nasty.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> I'm pretty happy with the double reeds overall, but there's always room to improve. Brass 1.4 really makes me think anything is possible if figured out. I've still EQ'd the instruments, but only subtle tweaks at this point, very much per taste. Finishing these libraries will help boost him, sure. But once he has a solid string offering and great demos, I'm sure everyone will wonder what hit them. Aaron's efforts are the music industry's curve ball... about to get served.



As you've demonstrated, all of the Infinite instruments sound good when given very active parts to play. It's the slower moments where some of the tone issues start to shine through on the instruments I mentioned. That's mostly in Infinite Woodwinds now though as 1.4 has fixed the overwhelming majority of my gripes with Infinite Brass.


----------



## Saxer

Fun stuff! The fastest template building ever: loaded, done. Two little snippets here...


----------



## El Buhdai

Saxer said:


> Fun stuff! The fastest template building ever: loaded, done. Two little snippets here...



I love your harmony! Jazz harmony with less extensions?


----------



## gyprock

Anyone used Infinite products in a notation program such as Dorico?


----------



## Sean J

gyprock said:


> Anyone used Infinite products in a notation program such as Dorico?



I own Dorico and Notion and have tested it in Notion, though I'm about to setup a template in Dorico. In Notion, it sounded flat if loaded raw. If you add detailed rules for accents and things like changing note length for staccatos, Infinite sounded as good as your average mock-up that way. The only thing it needs is some humanizing. A Kontakt multiscript could do it for Notion. Dorico has built-in humanizing, and easily the best and most thorough of all notation programs. It does most all the right things. So if I was getting good results in Notion, the results would only be better in Dorico. It will still need as thorough of an expression map as possible. The thing about notation is that Infinite is very capable. You just have to turn Dorico into a performer. It has all the abilities to do it, you just have to tell the program to use them.

It's pretty obvious that notation and Infinite has a lot of potential. Most libraries just aren't built for the kind of agility a notation program tends to demand of a VI. I'll post a mock-up made in Dorico on this thread once I'm done.


----------



## Sean J

gyprock said:


> Anyone used Infinite products in a notation program such as Dorico?



Actually... I just did some tests and found some map-related playback bugs regarding note length. Forget what I said. I did get good results in Dorico, but there's some real issues to know about right now.

Notion has an advantage I just encountered. Editing CC in Notion is easier as it's in-line with the staff (like StaffPad does it). Dorico's workflow is much more cumbersome here. Great features, just wonky and snail-paced to edit. This will matter for sustained performances. In Dorico, you can still get good note-length related playback results, but only if you change Dorico's overall playback settings. If you plan to use another library with Infinite, that could be a problem.

I disabled the map I made and only changed note durations in the playback options. It's buried under the Play Tab > Play Menu (at the top) > Playback Options (bottom) > Timing (left panel) > under Note Durations. This method works reliably right now. Dorico's default value is .25 for staccatos, which is unnaturally short with Infinite. I tried 47% and it sounded great at 160 bpm and 80 bpm (given the length being a percentage of the original note duration).

Tweaking just that one section in the settings gets you to a very good starting point with Infinite. You'd still want an expression map for brass mutes, flutter, and growl. Dorico has a lot of potential to map techniques (including custom techniques) like "overblown" to the breath knob in Infinite. You could even add "concert hall" to your score and have it change the room mid-score if you wanted. This can be a rabbit hole, so I'd first suggest tweaking just the playback options and writing a score. Once you're used to it, then you can figure out what settings you want to fine-tune, if any.


----------



## gyprock

scoredfilms said:


> Actually... I just did some tests and found some map-related playback bugs regarding note length. Forget what I said. I did get good results in Dorico, but there's some real issues to know about right now.
> 
> Notion has an advantage I just encountered. Editing CC in Notion is easier as it's in-line with the staff (like StaffPad does it). Dorico's workflow is much more cumbersome here. Great features, just wonky and snail-paced to edit. This will matter for sustained performances. In Dorico, you can still get good note-length related playback results, but only if you change Dorico's overall playback settings. If you plan to use another library with Infinite, that could be a problem.
> 
> I disabled the map I made and only changed note durations in the playback options. It's buried under the Play Tab > Play Menu (at the top) > Playback Options (bottom) > Timing (left panel) > under Note Durations. This method works reliably right now. Dorico's default value is .25 for staccatos, which is unnaturally short with Infinite. I tried 47% and it sounded great at 160 bpm and 80 bpm (given the length being a percentage of the original note duration).
> 
> Tweaking just that one section in the settings gets you to a very good starting point with Infinite. You'd still want an expression map for brass mutes, flutter, and growl. Dorico has a lot of potential to map techniques (including custom techniques) like "overblown" to the breath knob in Infinite. You could even add "concert hall" to your score and have it change the room mid-score if you wanted. This can be a rabbit hole, so I'd first suggest tweaking just the playback options and writing a score. Once you're used to it, then you can figure out what settings you want to fine-tune, if any.


Thanks for your detailed reply. I use Dorico and would love more 3rd party integration much like Noteperformer or StaffPad. Even though we're in 2020 we're still at the widget level as far as combining DAWs, VSTs, templates etc. It's almost like we're still debating whether spark plug A is better than spark plug B for our cars. Hopefully the next version of Dorico later this year will address some of these integration issues.


----------



## DANIELE

Saxer said:


> Fun stuff! The fastest template building ever: loaded, done. Two little snippets here...



Would you mind to share the midis?


----------



## pierrevigneron

El Buhdai said:


> At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
> 
> I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
> 
> Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
> 
> Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
> 
> For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.



I really like your orchestration of demo 1 could you send it back entirely?


----------



## mikeh-375

Saxer said:


> Fun stuff! The fastest template building ever: loaded, done. Two little snippets here...



Thanks for that Laura...I mean @Saxer.... 
I'm considering the brass and wind, so good demos like yours are really helpful.


----------



## Saxer

DANIELE said:


> Would you mind to share the midis?


I added the midi file to my post with the audio files.


mikeh-375 said:


> Thanks for that Laura...I mean @Saxer....


Oh yes, now that you say it I smell it too...


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> I really like your orchestration of demo 1 could you send it back entirely?



Thanks! What do you mean send it back entirely?


----------



## DANIELE

Saxer said:


> I added the midi file to my post with the audio files.



Thank you so much.


----------



## easynam

Figured I'd post something here too. I'm mostly clueless when it comes to brass arranging so this is mostly a pastiche based on listening to dans piece lol (https://vi-control.net/community/th...ron-venture-thread.86499/page-52#post-4533099)

This midi export is probably a mess due to me using FL..


----------



## easynam

oh, theres also this thing from around when I first bought the winds, very much looking forward to 1.2 (featuring a single 1.3.1 horn,,)


----------



## Sean J

easynam said:


> I'm mostly clueless when it comes to brass arranging...



Well it sounds like something brass players like playing.  It's a great demo of the library. The MIDI performance could improve a bit IMHO. It needs a bit more sfz in the attack to reflect how competitive brass players get about being bold and forceful, competitive, and downright cut-throat.

"How many trumpet players does it take to screw in a light bulb? One to actually do it and the rest to say how much better they could have done it". --- "How do you make a trombone sound like a french horn? You stick your hand in the bell and play all the wrong notes". hehehe, we're evil to each other.


----------



## shawnsingh

So I integrated IB 1.4 into my latest template, with a rough mix to match Berlin Brass.

Attached is a comparison between BB and IB with my rough mix. The same motif repeated on various instruments/ensembles, and a big fanfare at the end.

1. BB horn 1
2. IB horn 1
3. BB horn 2
4. BB horn 3
5. BB horn 4
6. BB horn Ensemble
7. IB horn Ensemble
8. BB+JXL solo horns divisi triads
9. IB solo horns divisi triads
10. BB trumpet 1
11. IB trumpet 1
12. BB trumpet 2
13. BB trumpet 3
14. BB trumpet Ensemble
15. IB trumpet Ensemble
16. BB+JXL solo trumpets divisi triads
17. IB solo trumpets divisi triads
18. BB trombone 1
19. IB trombone 1
20. BB trombone 2
21. BB trombone ensemble (2 tenos, 1 bass trombone)
22. IB trombone ensemble (3 tenors only)
23. BB solo tenor/bass trombones divisi triads
24. IB solo trombones divisi triads
25. BB bass trombone
26. IB bass trombone 1
27. BB tuba
28. IB tuba
29. fanfare: Berlin Strings, Berlin Percussion, Infinite Brass (no Berlin/JXL Brass at all)

I mixed IB to roughly match BB - It only took one EQ and one VSL convolution reverb, applied to the same bus for all IB instruments. I disabled the ambient mic on all instruments. The VSL plugin is ideal here because it has a Teldex IR, but also it has specific features that come in very handy - ability to sculpt how hi-pass/lo-pass filters change over time on the IR, and ability to narrow the start/stop times of which part of the IR to use. These features made it possible to add the Teldex tone on top of the Mozarteum Salzburg Infinite Brass IRs without making things too wet at all. I probably should put more effort in trying the Bursa/Studio IRs instead.


My personal conclusion:

- The tone is as great as libraries like Berlin Brass, just a bit different. Who knows, maybe I could even have mixed them to be even more similar if I keep trying. But actually I think the difference is useful. I predict that IB could be mixed to work well with spitfire SSO as well, but I don't have that library.

- One place where IB sounds a little muddy and less precise in stereo image compared to Berlin Brass is when orchestrating individual players in triads. I'm not sure if there's something I can do to mix or program it better to improve that? Most likely this is not something that will matter too much in a composition in practice.

- With 1.4 this time I gave the trombones and tuba a real honest try - which I personally had a hard time with them before. Now I think I've figured out how to program them to sound good, plus tone improvements with 1.4, they sound pretty good to me!

- The ability to program performance nuances in Infinite Brass is WAY beyond what's possible in the other sample libraries I own. This just can't be understated how useful and rewarding it is - the ability to have arbitrary length short notes, the ability to sculpt almost any kind of attack I can fathom with just note velocity and CC1.


----------



## shawnsingh

oh - after that verbose essay, I forgot the attachment. Attached here.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> oh - after that verbose essay, I forgot the attachment. Attached here.


You're a legend! IB sounding fantastic here mate. Great work! 

Is it cheeky to ask what settings you used here and how your matched it? 

Because it is tasty!


----------



## aaronventure

shawnsingh said:


> I mixed IB to roughly match BB


I don't think the EQ there is really the horns any favors, they sound like they are slightly muted. Shorts in horns are also a bit easier to play if you lower your CC1 by half and just higher velocity instead, that way you get that slightly rounded attack.

Here's something that's closer to what you're trying to achieve with horns (just the first example). Nothing was done here, this is how it loads out of the box (Mozarteum), except I added a bit of ambient mics. I uploaded the MIDI as well so you can see what I mean by lower CC1.



shawnsingh said:


> These features made it possible to add the Teldex tone on top of the Mozarteum Salzburg Infinite Brass


Eh, not really how it works, since you're plugging in an already wet and positioned sound. You're sending all the reflections from Mozarteum through another set of reflections. 

If you want to try MIR, your best bet would be to disable the built-in convolution and use it that way.


----------



## shawnsingh

Oh thanks for the comments! I'm happy to give the details of the mix, let me first improve it based on Aaron's feedback.

Aaron, thanks so much for the reply - I cannot unhear the mute-like sound on the horns now that you pointed it out. I can also hear a high frequency sheen on the trumpets too, probably caused by the same EQ issues.

About the VSL Teldex IR on top of Mozarteum - actually I'm not using MIR here, this is the VSL suite convolution, and I cut the entire early reflection region of the IR with the start/length options I mentioned earlier, so it should only be applying the late part of the IR, this not compounding early reflections. But still you're right that one IR doesn't just override the tone of the other, I should have known better. I think your suggested approach of leaning more on the ambient and not using another reverb will be better.


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure I haven't written anything with the new brass + winds yet. While we have the 'old' halls with the winds, any advice on which ones go together the best with the new rooms in IB?


----------



## aaronventure

shawnsingh said:


> so it should only be applying the late part of the IR


Nothing wrong with using the tail only, that should be fine. Just watch out if it muddies your sound (and whether that's what you want).



I like music said:


> @aaronventure I haven't written anything with the new brass + winds yet. While we have the 'old' halls with the winds, any advice on which ones go together the best with the new rooms in IB?


The scheme's the same. New ones have RTs of 0.5 s, 0.9 s, 1,5 s. Old scoring stage is around 1.0s, and old medium hall is around 1.6s. Old large hall is around 2.2 s, if you're gonna use that, slap some tail on top of the medium hall.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Nothing wrong with using the tail only, that should be fine. Just watch out if it muddies your sound (and whether that's what you want).
> 
> 
> The scheme's the same. New ones have RTs of 0.5 s, 0.9 s, 1,5 s. Old scoring stage is around 1.0s, and old medium hall is around 1.6s. Old large hall is around 2.2 s, if you're gonna use that, slap some tail on top of the medium hall.


Superb thanks!


----------



## pierrevigneron

For those who want to hear the comparison in my sound file there are 4 parts in order: 1) Infinite Brass trumpet 2) Hollywood brass trumpet 3) IB trumpet with EQ to look like HWB 4) 3 + 4

In my opinion :
1) beautiful, trumpet. a certain shine 
2) Very beautiful stamp but after IB we really feel a problem in the legato! 
3) IB is easily "malleable", I withdrew a resonance around 1khz. His character is close to the Hollywood trumpet with of course this smooth legato


----------



## decredis

I've been meaning to post some of my music ever since I got Infinite Woodwinds a while back, but the thing is, I'm very much an amateur, and don't show my music to anyone, so I've been thinking I'll wait until I've made something I'm happy with, but that will never happen, so I figured I'd just post a quick and very dirty and naive improvisation with Infinite Brass, to get the embarrassment out of the way. 

This is just improvised trumpet and bass trombone parts over improvised piano (and not-at-all-improvised drums taken from Native Instruments's drum library). I post it as a way of saying thank you to Infinite, but I'm conscious that it may be more an insult than a gift, since I know I don't do the instruments justice.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> You're a legend! IB sounding fantastic here mate. Great work!
> 
> Is it cheeky to ask what settings you used here and how your matched it?
> 
> Because it is tasty!



So after turning up the ambient mics, it turns out that the Mozarteum IRs alone match Berlin Brass quite well, with only a minor EQ. In my previous attempt I was perhaps trying to hard to get the precise stereo image that Berlin has, but along the way I was contradicting the nice tone that IB already had. That stereo image issue is a subtle one and not as important.

I'll try to find time to upload a revised version of my test, plus mix details (which are minimal actually) in a day or two.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> So after turning up the ambient mics, it turns out that the Mozarteum IRs alone match Berlin Brass quite well, with only a minor EQ. In my previous attempt I was perhaps trying to hard to get the precise stereo image that Berlin has, but along the way I was contradicting the nice tone that IB already had. That stereo image issue is a subtle one and not as important.
> 
> I'll try to find time to upload a revised version of my test, plus mix details (which are minimal actually) in a day or two.



Superb. Thanks! Looking forward to it.


----------



## x-dfo

Is there an education resource that provides example midi and automation (even if it's just a print screen) of how to do best practices for Brass and WW? As someone who has never touched these instruments, it would be neat to hear small phrases of commonly used articulations and what the midi data looks like to achieve this.


----------



## pierrevigneron

A very small demo of my new orchestral template with Infinite Brass featured for brass instruments


----------



## aaronventure

x-dfo said:


> Is there an education resource that provides example midi and automation (even if it's just a print screen) of how to do best practices for Brass and WW? As someone who has never touched these instruments, it would be neat to hear small phrases of commonly used articulations and what the midi data looks like to achieve this.


Most of the demos have their MIDI available for download on the website (click MORE near the demo).


----------



## x-dfo

aaronventure said:


> Most of the demos have their MIDI available for download on the website (click MORE near the demo).


ahh, I missed that, cheers!


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> For those who want to hear the comparison in my sound file there are 4 parts in order: 1) Infinite Brass trumpet 2) Hollywood brass trumpet 3) IB trumpet with EQ to look like HWB 4) 3 + 4
> 
> In my opinion :
> 1) beautiful, trumpet. a certain shine
> 2) Very beautiful stamp but after IB we really feel a problem in the legato!
> 3) IB is easily "malleable", I withdrew a resonance around 1khz. His character is close to the Hollywood trumpet with of course this smooth legato



Here are the things that jump out to me:

1. IB trumpets are very bright out of the box. I noticed this when I first played with them. This is not a bad thing, because it means I can get all the bite I need and back away the rest with EQ instead of having to try to raise some power out of dead samples.

2. Legato like you said. Not even close. IB wins. There are some transitions you can hear in the HB line that aren't even recorded so it's just a crossfade. The fact that an instrument without a single recorded legato transition sounds more natural in that department than other libraries is frankly incredible to me.

3. And finally, tone. IB trumpets sound less artificial and more natural than ever. I found I was able to get almost the same tone I got from HWB with all the playability of the Infinite Series. The only area I can possibly see improvements at this point is in the warmth and tone of the quietest dynamics where a live trumpet would retain its body and character, but the Infinite trumpet seems to thin out a bit. This isn't as noticeable if you have a section of trumpets playing at lower dynamics though.


----------



## pierrevigneron

El Buhdai said:


> Thanks! What do you mean send it back entirely?



the end seems truncated


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> the end seems truncated



Oh yeah! I'm working on getting the full song finished to show off Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, but I posted the incomplete version that day so someone could have something made with Infinite Brass to listen to.

The part I cut off wasn't as polished and wasn't ready to be shown.


----------



## RogiervG

Aaron.. Any glimpse of the strings? (just a tiny demo/showcase of how far you are e.g.? a work in progress demo)


----------



## Denkii

Are there any upgrade paths from one library to the other?


----------



## El Buhdai

Guys, I don't know when this changed, but Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds are finally the first results when you search the name on Google! We gotta keep the buzz going for these amazing libraries.


----------



## prodigalson

Denkii said:


> Are there any upgrade paths from one library to the other?



the difference in price in buying the bundle from what you originally paid for the first library. I.e. if you bought the first library for $349 it would be 609-349=260


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> You're a legend! IB sounding fantastic here mate. Great work!
> 
> Is it cheeky to ask what settings you used here and how your matched it?
> 
> Because it is tasty!



Thanks again for the kind words - attached revised mp3 that uses only mic mixing and EQ to get a good balance. Same ordering of motif mentioned in my previous post (link). Also attached screenshots of horns/trumpets/trombones/tuba EQ settings.

How I matched it: two basic strategies: (1) use mic mixing to try and get a similar stereo image and reverb tail, (2) use EQ to try and match timbre, often times doing it in mono. Repeated these steps a few times. After I felt they were roughly matched, I actually did another pass over IB to adjust the tone to personal taste, not worrying about matching it so precisely to BB anymore.

And one last personal opinion, I'm beginning to realize that for this library, good performance programming makes a big difference in how the mix gets perceived. Humans (or at least me?) are silly like that, getting our wires crossed so easily.

Here's a few gems of performance programming I think I've figured out so far. Apologies if these are obvious, but they've been really working well for me to make more natural sounding performances.
- slight different pitch bend on instruments that are playing in unison
- try drawing in slightly pitch bend modulation on very loud notes, especially in very high or low register, to emulate the innacuracy a player might have on holding a loud steady note.
- For accents, experiment between loud note velocity + low CC1, versus medium note velocity and high CC1. Also experiment with slight ramp-in envelopes on CC1 if you want to try a more rounded but still immediate attacks, where low note velocity attack would be too slow.
- For portatos and longer staccatos, experiment with different shapes of CC1 envelope to manage the perceived attack and release of each note. Different CC curves can make a huge difference in the character of the note, and different scenarios will need different CC curves. A CC ramp upwards can create an intensity that drives to the next note. A CC ramp down can help create a slight breath after the note. etc. This is where I think Infinite Brass really shines in expressive power compared to most other sample libraries.
- Adding a small bit of growl in the right places on trombone adds to the authenticity of playing loud and hard. i.e. not using growl for the effect itself, but for the imperfections that it creates in trying to hold loud notes. Might work for tuba/horn too, not sure I haven't really tried.


----------



## shawnsingh

Was limited to only 5 attachments per post. So attached here are screenshots of the mic mixing I did for each section, too.

Note that I muted close for trombones because I was hearing too much phasing between close and other ones - too bad. For tuba, I did it because it sounded more natural to me.


----------



## pierrevigneron

@aaronventure > impatient to hear a melody in the new oboe


----------



## x-dfo

shawnsingh said:


> Was limited to only 5 attachments per post. So attached here are screenshots of the mic mixing I did for each section, too.
> 
> Note that I muted close for trombones because I was hearing too much phasing between close and other ones - too bad. For tuba, I did it because it sounded more natural to me.


Thanks so much for sharing! Gonna try this out.


----------



## prodigalson

Been following this thread as I'm very interested in this library. When they first came out I wasn't impressed with the tone or the demos. My personal cross to bear is that I love the idea of instruments that I can just play and get the right attacks, dynamics, note lengths etc, however I just don't think (generally) anything SOUNDS as good as instruments recorded in an actual space. 

I did end up getting the Woodwinds after the last update and have been very impressed. They're very enjoyable to play and generally speaking sound pretty damn good. There is still a very slight modeled quality at times and I'm just not as convinced by the sound stage as when I play the SF, OT or CS winds. But for complex, orchestral writing I thnk they're really great. 

I've watched the whole video for IB and I'm really taken aback by how great the solo instruments sound and how great these new IRs are. My only concern is that listening to the demos I'm just not as convinced when they are combined into ensembles. Something disappears, I'm not sure what it is, they just dont blend and it feels sterile. 

Is anyone able to show something that would convince me otherwise? So far, everything seems to be just solo instruments. What about a chorale?


----------



## Eptesicus

shawnsingh said:


> So I integrated IB 1.4 into my latest template, with a rough mix to match Berlin Brass.
> 
> Attached is a comparison between BB and IB with my rough mix. The same motif repeated on various instruments/ensembles, and a big fanfare at the end.
> 
> 1. BB horn 1
> 2. IB horn 1
> 3. BB horn 2
> 4. BB horn 3
> 5. BB horn 4
> 6. BB horn Ensemble
> 7. IB horn Ensemble
> 8. BB+JXL solo horns divisi triads
> 9. IB solo horns divisi triads
> 10. BB trumpet 1
> 11. IB trumpet 1
> 12. BB trumpet 2
> 13. BB trumpet 3
> 14. BB trumpet Ensemble
> 15. IB trumpet Ensemble
> 16. BB+JXL solo trumpets divisi triads
> 17. IB solo trumpets divisi triads
> 18. BB trombone 1
> 19. IB trombone 1
> 20. BB trombone 2
> 21. BB trombone ensemble (2 tenos, 1 bass trombone)
> 22. IB trombone ensemble (3 tenors only)
> 23. BB solo tenor/bass trombones divisi triads
> 24. IB solo trombones divisi triads
> 25. BB bass trombone
> 26. IB bass trombone 1
> 27. BB tuba
> 28. IB tuba
> 29. fanfare: Berlin Strings, Berlin Percussion, Infinite Brass (no Berlin/JXL Brass at all)
> 
> I mixed IB to roughly match BB - It only took one EQ and one VSL convolution reverb, applied to the same bus for all IB instruments. I disabled the ambient mic on all instruments. The VSL plugin is ideal here because it has a Teldex IR, but also it has specific features that come in very handy - ability to sculpt how hi-pass/lo-pass filters change over time on the IR, and ability to narrow the start/stop times of which part of the IR to use. These features made it possible to add the Teldex tone on top of the Mozarteum Salzburg Infinite Brass IRs without making things too wet at all. I probably should put more effort in trying the Bursa/Studio IRs instead.
> 
> 
> My personal conclusion:
> 
> - The tone is as great as libraries like Berlin Brass, just a bit different. Who knows, maybe I could even have mixed them to be even more similar if I keep trying. But actually I think the difference is useful. I predict that IB could be mixed to work well with spitfire SSO as well, but I don't have that library.
> 
> - One place where IB sounds a little muddy and less precise in stereo image compared to Berlin Brass is when orchestrating individual players in triads. I'm not sure if there's something I can do to mix or program it better to improve that? Most likely this is not something that will matter too much in a composition in practice.
> 
> - With 1.4 this time I gave the trombones and tuba a real honest try - which I personally had a hard time with them before. Now I think I've figured out how to program them to sound good, plus tone improvements with 1.4, they sound pretty good to me!
> 
> - The ability to program performance nuances in Infinite Brass is WAY beyond what's possible in the other sample libraries I own. This just can't be understated how useful and rewarding it is - the ability to have arbitrary length short notes, the ability to sculpt almost any kind of attack I can fathom with just note velocity and CC1.



This was really interesting, especially the horn comparison.

The infinite horn(s) sound completely different, almost like they are a different instrument (maybe more raspy/trombone like)!

I think tone wise Berlin Brass is a clear winner (for me at least).


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Can the brass do jazzy shakes? Like samplemodeling when you crank the mod wheel right up? I'm interested in Infinite Brass & WW (when the update arrives!) for mostly straight-up orchestral stuff, but I'm working on a jazzy musical-theatre thing right now and wonder if the brass would suit it.


----------



## Jon Aschalew

Just purchased, excited to try it out, thanks Brian for the recommendation


----------



## Jon Aschalew

I'm a massive fan of Kohei Tanaka's style of writing, this library seems perfect for that sort of stuff!


----------



## Brian Nowak

Jon Aschalew said:


> Just purchased, excited to try it out, thanks Brian for the recommendation



I'm sorry to have gassed you. But... I think it will serve you well!


----------



## I like music

One of my favourite threads, and an example of a helpful community. @shawnsingh this is super helpful stuff, man. You've outdone yourself with the effort and helpfulness. I'll be testing a few things tonight for sure!

As it happens, this thread contains a lot of helpful information for people who are interesting in learning more about the library. Lots of examples (naked and dressed up). Critiques, praise etc etc. All minus the politics, which is great.

I actually think it helps a huge amount that the developer is an active composer, and is constantly involved in the thread. I know it isn't possible for all developers to do this, especially when they gain a super massive customer base, and have many mouths to feed, and a company to run etc etc. So lets enjoy it while it lasts here.

Wishing everyone happy composing!

PS ... noow, where the F*** are those strings?! A less scrupulous dev would have created a pre-order page already (and I would have pre-ordered already) even if the library wasn't coming out this year!


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> This was really interesting, especially the horn comparison.
> 
> The infinite horn(s) sound completely different, almost like they are a different instrument (maybe more raspy/trombone like)!
> 
> I think tone wise Berlin Brass is a clear winner (for me at least).


I think the horns piece was corrected, in a subsequent post? Aaron actually pointed out that in this example the EQ made it sound a bit muffled. I think Shawn's done an updated test with the same comparison. Check it out and see if you like the tone better.


----------



## Eptesicus

I like music said:


> I think the horns piece was corrected, in a subsequent post? Aaron actually pointed out that in this example the EQ made it sound a bit muffled. I think Shawn's done an updated test with the same comparison. Check it out and see if you like the tone better.



Thanks. Have listened to that but still seems to lack that distinct "horny" (lol) tone in my opinion. Still sounds quite thin and raspy and not very warm.


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> Thanks. Have listened to that but still seems to lack that distinct "horny" (lol) tone in my opinion. Still sounds quite thin and raspy and not very warm.



Now I'll have to have another listen. Can never be too 'horny'.


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> - try drawing in slightly pitch bend modulation on very loud notes, especially in very high or low register, to emulate the innacuracy a player might have on holding a loud steady note.



I've been searching and searching for a way to draw in pitch wheel modulation since I have no keyboard. Which CC is it?


----------



## El Buhdai

prodigalson said:


> I've watched the whole video for IB and I'm really taken aback by how great the solo instruments sound and how great these new IRs are. My only concern is that listening to the demos I'm just not as convinced when they are combined into ensembles. Something disappears, I'm not sure what it is, they just dont blend and it feels sterile.
> 
> Is anyone able to show something that would convince me otherwise? So far, everything seems to be just solo instruments. What about a chorale?



All of my current projects use sections from Infinite Brass and Winds. Are you looking for demos of naked Infinite sections, or are you concerned about how they fit with the rest of the orchestra? I don't really write brass or woodwinds-only music right now, but I have plenty of examples of the latter if that's what you want.

I assume you already have traditional libraries like most of us did before buying Infinite. Even if you don't like the sections, if you buy Infinite Brass you'll have some of the most expressive instruments on the market (only second to SM instruments) without sacrificing as much tone as SM.

I've been playing with them so much that I haven't had the opportunity to give much feedback on them yet, but let's just say at this point IB is noticeably better than IW at this point.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> A less scrupulous dev would have created a pre-order page already (and I would have pre-ordered already) even if the library wasn't coming out this year!



I would actually prefer to pre-order the strings. I can see why Aaron wouldn't want to hold on to money in case things went south for him. It's just a lot easier for me to do this now than at various points in the year.



Richard Wilkinson said:


> Can the brass do jazzy shakes?



Easily. It excels at it. I'm working on a demo now of shaky, growly, some cinematic sustains, cinematic jabby stabby staccatos, etc. I'm just writing a few things at once right now and have to prioritize. But yes, it can. Oh yes.


----------



## x-dfo

El Buhdai said:


> I've been searching and searching for a way to draw in pitch wheel modulation since I have no keyboard. Which CC is it?


It's not a cc, it's some kind of 'other message' - it can be automated in Reaper as Pitch, in ableton I don't think you can actually do it outside of the Envelope editing in a midi clip.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

scoredfilms said:


> Easily. It excels at it. I'm working on a demo now of shaky, growly, some cinematic sustains, cinematic jabby stabby staccatos, etc. I'm just writing a few things at once right now and have to prioritize. But yes, it can. Oh yes.


Great! How is it achieved? I could see fluttertongue and growl as options but not shakes


----------



## El Buhdai

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Great! How is it achieved? I could see fluttertongue and growl as options but not shakes



Me either. I was hoping shakes would come at some point, but I can't think of any way of doing that with vanilla Infinite given the dip in dynamics during slower legato transitions. I guess we'll have to wait for our friend @scoredfilms then. 



x-dfo said:


> It's not a cc, it's some kind of 'other message' - it can be automated in Reaper as Pitch, in ableton I don't think you can actually do it outside of the Envelope editing in a midi clip.



Ah so it's on the DAW level then, okay thanks. I'll have to wait until I get a keyboard with a pitch wheel to use Kontakt's pitch wheel then I suppose.


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> I've been searching and searching for a way to draw in pitch wheel modulation since I have no keyboard. Which CC is it?


If you want to draw pitch bend, the MIDI controller is just called Pitch. Pitch Bend controller by default in Infinite only bends by 1 semitone. If you wish to bend it further, add a Transformer multiscript (KSP > Presets > Factory > Transform > Transformer) and transform your PB into an unused controller. Then map that controller to the Pitch knob for each instrument you want to bend. Now head over to the MIDI automation tab inside Kontakt and adjust the range for that controller you just mapped (note that 50% is 0 bend, so keep shaving off the same value from both ends until you get the range you desire e.g. 10%-90%, 20%-80% etc.). It's a workaround and works more than fine, once you set it up for yourself you can save the patch so you don't have to repeat it. Just note that you're bending the samples and tone will start to suffer past 2 semitones.



Richard Wilkinson said:


> Can the brass do jazzy shakes? Like samplemodeling when you crank the mod wheel right up? I'm interested in Infinite Brass & WW (when the update arrives!) for mostly straight-up orchestral stuff, but I'm working on a jazzy musical-theatre thing right now and wonder if the brass would suit it.


You can play trills right on the keyboard, and you have 127 different velocities to choose from. I guess low velocities could pass for it. Here's an example of the trumpet trilling with all low-velocity notes, and one with all high-velocity notes.

Even though low velocity legato has a longer duration, if you start to play it repeatedly (either for runs or trills) the instrument will know what you're attempting to do and speed the transitions up for you, while keeping the soft response.






That's the current state of it.


----------



## aaronventure

And results change with note duration. Probably the best idea here would be to sequence it until you find the right combination of note duration + velocity that satisfies you. Otherwise no, no scripted shakes yet


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> And results change with note duration. Probably the best idea here would be to sequence it until you find the right combination of note duration + velocity that satisfies you.



That sounds pretty nice! It's not the exact technique of course but it's closer than I thought we could have achieved with 1.4. Bravo!

Thanks for the pitch bending tips by the way, I've been wanting to dial in some struggle for really low and really high notes in brass sections.



aaronventure said:


> yet


----------



## shawnsingh

Eptesicus said:


> This was really interesting, especially the horn comparison.
> 
> The infinite horn(s) sound completely different, almost like they are a different instrument (maybe more raspy/trombone like)!
> 
> I think tone wise Berlin Brass is a clear winner (for me at least).



I suppose it might depend on the exact speakers/headphones you're listening. But in my listening setup, the four different BB horns sound just as different in timbre and character as the IB horn does.



Eptesicus said:


> Thanks. Have listened to that but still seems to lack that distinct "horny" (lol) tone in my opinion. Still sounds quite thin and raspy and not very warm.



Are you referring to the solo horn in particular - then I would agree, except I personally like this option of a thinner, more present sound. But when I combined all 6 horns with slightly different pitch bend, I thought it sounded quite thick and solid, slightly more than the BB ensemble actually. Thoughts?


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Me either. I was hoping shakes would come at some point, but I can't think of any way of doing that with vanilla Infinite given the dip in dynamics during slower legato transitions. I guess we'll have to wait for our friend @scoredfilms then.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah so it's on the DAW level then, okay thanks. I'll have to wait until I get a keyboard with a pitch wheel to use Kontakt's pitch wheel then I suppose.





El Buhdai said:


>


1.5 CONFIRMED!

Just kidding. As far as I'm concerned this library is as complete as they come now, for. My purposes at least. 

Now just looking forward to strings!


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

aaronventure said:


> And results change with note duration. Probably the best idea here would be to sequence it until you find the right combination of note duration + velocity that satisfies you. Otherwise no, no scripted shakes yet



Thanks for going to the trouble to mock that up Aaron - sounds really nice, and as you've demonstrated there's a lot of flexibility in being able to do this 'live' rather than pre-canned. Starting to look like a no-brainer! Is the woodwind update due this year, and is there any likelihood of a flute preview before the early price for Brass 1.4 expires?


----------



## aaronventure

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Thanks for going to the trouble to mock that up Aaron - sounds really nice, and as you've demonstrated there's a lot of flexibility in being able to do this 'live' rather than pre-canned. Starting to look like a no-brainer! Is the woodwind update due this year, and is there any likelihood of a flute preview before the early price for Brass 1.4 expires?


Woodwinds update is already underway. It's due this year, yes. I have yet to get to the flutes, however. So far only oboes are done..

I'm not sure what do the flutes have with Brass an its discount price, I might be missing something. Could you elaborate?


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

aaronventure said:


> I'm not sure what do the flutes have with Brass an its discount price, I might be missing something. Could you elaborate?



Badly phrased on my part, sorry - I mistakenly thought there was a bundle price for both which expired on April 16 - so a preview of the woodwind update would have tempted me to buy both, rather than just the brass.

Basically just a reading error by me - long day, apologies!


----------



## El Buhdai

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Badly phrased on my part, sorry - I mistakenly thought there was a bundle price for both which expired on April 16 - so a preview of the woodwind update would have tempted me to buy both, rather than just the brass.
> 
> Basically just a reading error by me - long day, apologies!



I can't tell you if this library will work for you, but having oboes, clarinets, and bass woodwinds with this flexibility alone was more than enough to justify the price of admission for me. Oboes in particular are no fun unless they can play fun lines, which is why I love the ones in Infinite Woodwinds.

Clarinets also have glides, which would come in handy for subgenres of jazz, particularly big band.


----------



## pierrevigneron

shawnsingh said:


> Thanks again for the kind words - attached revised mp3 that uses only mic mixing and EQ to get a good balance. Same ordering of motif mentioned in my previous post (link). Also attached screenshots of horns/trumpets/trombones/tuba EQ settings.
> 
> How I matched it: two basic strategies: (1) use mic mixing to try and get a similar stereo image and reverb tail, (2) use EQ to try and match timbre, often times doing it in mono. Repeated these steps a few times. After I felt they were roughly matched, I actually did another pass over IB to adjust the tone to personal taste, not worrying about matching it so precisely to BB anymore.
> 
> And one last personal opinion, I'm beginning to realize that for this library, good performance programming makes a big difference in how the mix gets perceived. Humans (or at least me?) are silly like that, getting our wires crossed so easily.
> 
> Here's a few gems of performance programming I think I've figured out so far. Apologies if these are obvious, but they've been really working well for me to make more natural sounding performances.
> - slight different pitch bend on instruments that are playing in unison
> - try drawing in slightly pitch bend modulation on very loud notes, especially in very high or low register, to emulate the innacuracy a player might have on holding a loud steady note.
> - For accents, experiment between loud note velocity + low CC1, versus medium note velocity and high CC1. Also experiment with slight ramp-in envelopes on CC1 if you want to try a more rounded but still immediate attacks, where low note velocity attack would be too slow.
> - For portatos and longer staccatos, experiment with different shapes of CC1 envelope to manage the perceived attack and release of each note. Different CC curves can make a huge difference in the character of the note, and different scenarios will need different CC curves. A CC ramp upwards can create an intensity that drives to the next note. A CC ramp down can help create a slight breath after the note. etc. This is where I think Infinite Brass really shines in expressive power compared to most other sample libraries.
> - Adding a small bit of growl in the right places on trombone adds to the authenticity of playing loud and hard. i.e. not using growl for the effect itself, but for the imperfections that it creates in trying to hold loud notes. Might work for tuba/horn too, not sure I haven't really tried.


these settings seem a little extreme ... 🤔


----------



## shawnsingh

pierrevigneron said:


> these settings seem a little extreme ... 🤔



This is a very good point to discuss!

(1) Most importantly - the library does sound great without any EQ settings.

(2) How about my trumpet EQ: -20 dB at 80 Hz does seem extreme. But please consider - the lowest register that a standard Bb/C trumpet can reach is around 160 Hz, one octave above that. And their usual fundamental frequencies are more like 300-900 Hz. Also, my intention was not literally "reduce 80 Hz by 20 dB". My goal was to use the slope of the EQ filter, shaped by the Q parameter, to sculpt the sound. So let's assume that the EQ curve is plotted correctly on my plugin, then you'll see that it's around -12 dB at 250 Hz, and maybe -8 dB around 500 Hz. So that's a slope of 4 dB / octave, which isn't that extreme at all. When shaping tone like this, personally I find that the slopes of the EQ are the real meaningful tool. The exact center frequency and gain of the filter don't matter as much.

(3) It's very possible that my EQ settings will need to be fixed a lot when actually using the libraries for real orchestrated music.

(4) It is very subjective. I'm beginning to learn about myself that I like the sound of having emphasized mid range frequencies. I have a small room with no acoustic treatment (i.e. bad bass response) and bright Adam monitors. Also I may have used my headphones too loudly when mixing this, too. So for all those reasons I might be inclined to mix things very mid-range heavy.

(5) My mixing decisions were made only using f-ff dynamics so far. I probably should try the same exercise with pp-mp examples.

Cheers!


----------



## prodigalson

El Buhdai said:


> All of my current projects use sections from Infinite Brass and Winds. Are you looking for demos of naked Infinite sections, or are you concerned about how they fit with the rest of the orchestra?



I'm generally interested in the sections but would be happy to hear anything where it works with an orchestra also. Thanks in advance if you have the time!


----------



## pierrevigneron

shawnsingh said:


> This is a very good point to discuss!
> 
> (1) Most importantly - the library does sound great without any EQ settings.
> 
> (2) How about my trumpet EQ: -20 dB at 80 Hz does seem extreme. But please consider - the lowest register that a standard Bb/C trumpet can reach is around 160 Hz, one octave above that. And their usual fundamental frequencies are more like 300-900 Hz. Also, my intention was not literally "reduce 80 Hz by 20 dB". My goal was to use the slope of the EQ filter, shaped by the Q parameter, to sculpt the sound. So let's assume that the EQ curve is plotted correctly on my plugin, then you'll see that it's around -12 dB at 250 Hz, and maybe -8 dB around 500 Hz. So that's a slope of 4 dB / octave, which isn't that extreme at all. When shaping tone like this, personally I find that the slopes of the EQ are the real meaningful tool. The exact center frequency and gain of the filter don't matter as much.
> 
> (3) It's very possible that my EQ settings will need to be fixed a lot when actually using the libraries for real orchestrated music.
> 
> (4) It is very subjective. I'm beginning to learn about myself that I like the sound of having emphasized mid range frequencies. I have a small room with no acoustic treatment (i.e. bad bass response) and bright Adam monitors. Also I may have used my headphones too loudly when mixing this, too. So for all those reasons I might be inclined to mix things very mid-range heavy.
> 
> (5) My mixing decisions were made only using f-ff dynamics so far. I probably should try the same exercise with pp-mp examples.
> 
> Cheers!


Yes it is true that your EQ curves are very soft and that does not make the sound unpleasant. I agree with you because I too calm the treble and give a little medium. What bothers me a little when listening is the reduction you make in the bass. Anyway if it suits you it's perfect and I hope I didn't give you the impression that it was a nasty criticism, just a remark


----------



## dadadave

Just for giggles, does someone want to mock up this french horn solo from an orchestral arrangement of a dream theater song?

just the solo

solo in musical context starting after 13:40 or so


----------



## El Buhdai

dadadave said:


> Just for giggles, does someone want to mock up this french horn solo from an orchestral arrangement of a dream theater song?
> 
> just the solo
> 
> solo in musical context starting after 13:40 or so



Someone has to do this with Infinite.


----------



## Eptesicus

Whats the general feeling on whether Infinite is better than SM Brass?

SM Brass is having a (seemingly one time only) sale at the moment due to the coronavirus crisis, making the whole brass bundle even cheaper than infinite.


----------



## El Buhdai

Eptesicus said:


> Whats the general feeling on whether Infinite is better than SM Brass?
> 
> SM Brass is having a (seemingly one time only) sale at the moment due to the coronavirus crisis, making the whole brass bundle even cheaper than infinite.



I only own Infinite and I haven't investigated the library much because I only heard about it after investing in the Infinite series, BUT...

What I've heard about it from others comes down to this:

SM has even more expressiveness and flexibility than Infinite, but Infinite has a better tone. I heard this when IB was in 1.3, so unless SM has also had tone-related updates, the disparity is probably greater now.

Of course, I don't know if either of those things are true. It's just what I've heard.


----------



## Dan

dadadave said:


> Just for giggles, does someone want to mock up this french horn solo from an orchestral arrangement of a dream theater song?
> 
> just the solo
> 
> solo in musical context starting after 13:40 or so



This is as close as I could get by ear.


EDIT: I added a softer version as well that is a bit easier on the ears. IB handles it surprisingly well I think.


----------



## x-dfo

Dan said:


> This is as close as I could get by ear.


that's pretty awesome


----------



## El Buhdai

Dan said:


> This is as close as I could get by ear.
> 
> 
> EDIT: I added a softer version as well that is a bit easier on the ears. IB handles it surprisingly well I think.



Thanks for adding the quieter version. Sounds much better. And I agree, Infinite handles it very well, but at this point I'd be more surprised if it didn't. I'm a shameless fanboy for these libraries lol.

Can we get some MIDI?


----------



## Dan

El Buhdai said:


> Can we get some MIDI?



Here is MIDI of the softer version. Had to move some things around to help the poor horn to keep up with the insane speed.


----------



## Geocranium

Dan said:


> This is as close as I could get by ear.
> 
> 
> EDIT: I added a softer version as well that is a bit easier on the ears. IB handles it surprisingly well I think.



This sounds awesome. Makes me think that Infinite could *really* nail the busy Horner Wrath of Khan horn line.


----------



## shawnsingh

pierrevigneron said:


> Yes it is true that your EQ curves are very soft and that does not make the sound unpleasant. I agree with you because I too calm the treble and give a little medium. What bothers me a little when listening is the reduction you make in the bass. Anyway if it suits you it's perfect and I hope I didn't give you the impression that it was a nasty criticism, just a remark



Not at all, your feedback is greatly appreciated! After day away from it, listening again on my monitors properly, I completely agree now that I removed too much bass!


----------



## x-dfo

This is probably an old, oft-repeated question, but are ensembles on the roadmap for Infinite? I guess in the interest in ease of use, but possibly in saving system resources?


----------



## Sean J

x-dfo said:


> This is probably an old, oft-repeated question, but are ensembles on the roadmap for Infinite? I guess in the interest in ease of use, but possibly in saving system resources?



What are you trying to save on?

My Surface Book 2 16GB RAM can load the entire bundle. CPU is a real concern. ASIO4ALL will be the death of me. I miss my PCIe RME card for the drivers alone. The CPU of Infinite on my SB2 isn't even usable, which is a shame as my goal is 100% mobility and dropping my desktop entirely. On my desktop, the CPU isn't a problem at all. It's higher than my template was before, but only few percent on average. So I have issues that resonate I guess, but it's nothing Aaron can do anything about.

To ensemble, or not to ensemble...

I do wish there was a Trombone 4, as sometimes that's called for and more often I like having a2 on all my first chair parts. I've also offset my tracks. While Aaron's humanize is a great improvement, the attacks still felt like they needed a different center of gravity and cc1 dynamics are all too consistent. If you copy paste a part from one instrument to another, it's a bit super human in how exactly unison they are. So I can see that the ensemble performing can improve a little still. I'm still tweaking more than I'd like because of that. But that's the only thing I can think of.

Thing is, it sounds much more like a professional performance than my Spitfire template does when Infinite is human enough. My Spitfire template has ensemble and solo patches. So the idealist in me says it's better to keep it modular. At that point, it seems this is more a tech performance consideration than any other.

Has anyone been using Infinite entirely on a laptop?


----------



## aaronventure

x-dfo said:


> This is probably an old, oft-repeated question, but are ensembles on the roadmap for Infinite? I guess in the interest in ease of use, but possibly in saving system resources?


Strings will have ensembles. But if Brass/Winds had them, it would only save a bit on the script engine. DSP would still be the same (like with Mixed Mic), and that's where the biggest hit is. RAM would also be the same (but is this seriously even a factor? :D)



scoredfilms said:


> I do wish there was a Trombone 4


You actually have 15. Make use that Transpose option! Transposing by 1 up or down is unnoticeable unless you compare it directly with the nonn-transposed one; in unison or when playing chords it's unnoticeable (in conventional sampling, half of your notes are already transposed by 1 as sampling is usually done diatonically).


----------



## x-dfo

aaronventure said:


> Strings will have ensembles. But if Brass/Winds had them, it would only save a bit on the script engine. DSP would still be the same (like with Mixed Mic), and that's where the biggest hit is. RAM would also be the same (but is this seriously even a factor? :D)
> 
> 
> You actually have 15. Make use that Transpose option! Transposing by 1 up or down is unnoticeable unless you compare it directly with the nonn-transposed one; in unison or when playing chords it's unnoticeable (in conventional sampling, half of your notes are already transposed by 1 as sampling is usually done diatonically).


Makes sense! Mainly it was more for saving time to just have TrumpetEnsemble ready to rock as a good sounding group and sketching. Maybe some divisi fairy dust sprinkled on


----------



## Sean J

I just entirely removed Spitfire's Brass from my DAW template.

So I've been writing a piece in StaffPad intending on adding Infinite to it later by live performing it with my wind controller, but without my own samples and synths, I find myself spending too much time working around that for now. I really wanted to get a solid Infinite demo out. So I returned to the DAW and started writing a piece specifically to highlight HB. It's coming along much faster and will be done soon. Halfway through this, I've realized I just don't even find a use in my Spitfire brass library anymore. I did miss my close mics on the strings for how detailed they sound (you'll hear why I care so much about this in the demo), so it's made me hope Infinite really nails a good string sound. But still... the brass... who needs anything else?

This is sort of a useless post. I just really wanted to say I'm 100% IB now.


----------



## DivingInSpace

I just bought Infinite Woodwinds a couple of days ago and finally had a chance to try them out. It seems like they might take me some time getting used to as there is not much performance backed into the samples, but i guess that whole point, doing your own performance. I am almost starting to regret that i didn't get both Woodwinds and brass with the student discount, but on the other hand i do have a great library already. I look forward to working with this.


----------



## Denkii

DivingInSpace said:


> I just bought Infinite Woodwinds a couple of days ago and finally had a chance to try them out. It seems like they might take me some time getting used to as there is not much performance backed into the samples, but i guess that whole point, doing your own performance. I am almost starting to regret that i didn't get both Woodwinds and brass with the student discount, but on the other hand i do have a great library already. I look forward to working with this.


Student discount only applies to solo purchases anyway so no need to rush.
And you still save more than the bundle that is on sale.


----------



## Brian Nowak

scoredfilms said:


> I just entirely removed Spitfire's Brass from my DAW template.
> 
> So I've been writing a piece in StaffPad intending on adding Infinite to it later by live performing it with my wind controller, but without my own samples and synths, I find myself spending too much time working around that for now. I really wanted to get a solid Infinite demo out. So I returned to the DAW and started writing a piece specifically to highlight HB. It's coming along much faster and will be done soon. Halfway through this, I've realized I just don't even find a use in my Spitfire brass library anymore. I did miss my close mics on the strings for how detailed they sound (you'll hear why I care so much about this in the demo), so it's made me hope Infinite really nails a good string sound. But still... the brass... who needs anything else?
> 
> This is sort of a useless post. I just really wanted to say I'm 100% IB now.



How soon? I'm very, VERY curious.


----------



## aaronventure

New demo and screencast up. You might recognize the piece


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Picked IB up a couple of days ago and have only really just had a play. It’s freaking amazing. I already have Berlin Brass (full) and a few other Brass collections and I did play trumpet back in the day. Though I was never a particularly good player my father was and I think the tone is great here.

Right now I think that IB may displace all my other Brass samples. It’s very expressive, very flexible and very consistent. Smooth. There’s always the option to layer if I think it’s needed but I’m very happy right now. May still be the honeymoon period and I’m still very much learning how to use it properly. That process isn’t helped by the fact that my keyboard controller is playing up and not giving me accurate velocities (random levels and keys). Means I need to switch off the velocity for attacks and go full mod wheel for the moment. Not ideal but I can live with it til I get my controller repaired or replaced. 

I’ve not had much of a chance to try out things in an ensemble setting. Just started with the horns. I like how it’s sounding so far. All of this is of course IMHO but I’m loving it. Thanks @aaronventure, you’ve got a very interesting product here. 

Thanks also to everyone who posted their demos. I don’t think I’ve heard one that I don’t like the Brass in. It’s great.


----------



## DANIELE

I remember someone asking about listening to IB in a more epic contest, here's the last piece I wrote for fun (it is a remake of another old piece of mine, when I used to write more epic and percussive stuff). I don't know if this is the final version, maybe I will work a little bit more on it but it is enough to show to you all the IB and IW used in an epic track.

You will have simple melodies and rhythmic stuff, I hope it is enough for the ones that has doubts about IB used in a less classical context.



Now I have another kind of track to write.


----------



## Sean J

DANIELE said:


> I hope it is enough for the ones that has doubts about IB used in a less classical context.



Thanks for posting this! I'm right at the end of mine. I went a very specific direction with mine and starting realizing that most would probably prefer a demo much more like how yours turned out in style. That thought left me wanting to hear more demos from more people. Definitely great to hear the library used this way. It certainly doesn't sound like Holst or Gershwin.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I remember someone asking about listening to IB in a more epic contest, here's the last piece I wrote for fun (it is a remake of another old piece of mine, when I used to write more epic and percussive stuff). I don't know if this is the final version, maybe I will work a little bit more on it but it is enough to show to you all the IB and IW used in an epic track.
> 
> You will have simple melodies and rhythmic stuff, I hope it is enough for the ones that has doubts about IB used in a less classical context.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I have another kind of track to write.



Wonderful. And the brass shines!
Strings are SM, or a mixture?


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> Thanks for posting this! I'm right at the end of mine. I went a very specific direction with mine and starting realizing that most would probably prefer a demo much more like how yours turned out in style. That thought left me wanting to hear more demos from more people. Definitely great to hear the library used this way. It certainly doesn't sound like Holst or Gershwin.



Would love to hear what you have cooking


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> Thanks for posting this! I'm right at the end of mine. I went a very specific direction with mine and starting realizing that most would probably prefer a demo much more like how yours turned out in style. That thought left me wanting to hear more demos from more people. Definitely great to hear the library used this way. It certainly doesn't sound like Holst or Gershwin.



Actually I like many kinds of orchestral music from the classic one to the modern one till the epic one.

This track seems easy and it is easier than a John William piece for sure but is not as simple as it seems at first listen.

I like to keep tracks unpredictable like the central part of this one.

Anyway now I'm going to do a track more in the JW style, I have to listen and study more to do a good job with this but I'll try to do my best and I'll post it once it is ready.



I like music said:


> Wonderful. And the brass shines!
> Strings are SM, or a mixture?



Thank you.

Strings are ONLY SM, I will couple them with the Aaron ones once they are out.

My principle is simple, I want to use the libraries I like alone until I have learned all I can to use them at their best. By doing this I'm learning a lot how to use them to achieve the best results.

Many parts of this track are manually recorded. This is how I managed to get this sound.

I think I'll post it in the SM thread too, just to show SM strings in this context.


I replaced the attachment with a new one, I did some little editing to get a better mastering.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Actually I like many kinds of orchestral music from the classic one to the modern one till the epic one.
> 
> This track seems easy and it is easier than a John William piece for sure but is not as simple as it seems at first listen.
> 
> I like to keep tracks unpredictable like the central part of this one.
> 
> Anyway now I'm going to do a track more in the JW style, I have to listen and study more to do a good job with this but I'll try to do my best and I'll post it once it is ready.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Strings are ONLY SM, I will couple them with the Aaron ones once they are out.
> 
> My principle is simple, I want to use the libraries I like alone until I have learned all I can to use them at their best. By doing this I'm learning a lot how to use them to achieve the best results.
> 
> Many parts of this track are manually recorded. This is how I managed to get this sound.
> 
> I think I'll post it in the SM thread too, just to show SM strings in this context.
> 
> 
> I replaced the attachment with a new one, I did some little editing to get a better mastering.



Superb advert for this style of libraries mate. Well done.


----------



## Sean J

DANIELE said:


> This track seems easy and it is easier than a John William piece for sure but is not as simple as it seems at first listen.



Oh, sorry if I implied it was simple. I just realized my own probably missed the style that yours hit on exactly. It's more like people were challenged to score a film and one person did it while I went on a mental tangent and wrote an opera. Not quite like that, just different types of epic. Still, you're on point.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I remember someone asking about listening to IB in a more epic contest, here's the last piece I wrote for fun (it is a remake of another old piece of mine, when I used to write more epic and percussive stuff). I don't know if this is the final version, maybe I will work a little bit more on it but it is enough to show to you all the IB and IW used in an epic track.
> 
> You will have simple melodies and rhythmic stuff, I hope it is enough for the ones that has doubts about IB used in a less classical context.
> 
> Now I have another kind of track to write.



I had my doubts about SM Strings but I've certainly heard user songs from "better" libraries that don't sound nearly as good. It's always clear when a composer knows their libraries well.

I loved the sound of the trumpets and trombones playing effects around the middle of the song. I was sold there.

I'm not as sold when the IB French Horns play epic lines at high dynamics though. Even though I think you said you use 12 horns, it's missing the size and sound of more traditional libraries with smaller section sizes. Still better than I expected though, and I don't really use Infinite Brass for anything epic because that's just not how I write. It's fine with me that its Trombones and Horns don't do it as well as, say, Hollywood Brass. The trumpets are definitely there though.

Nice demo!


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> Oh, sorry if I implied it was simple. I just realized my own probably missed the style that yours hit on exactly. It's more like people were challenged to score a film and one person did it while I went on a mental tangent and wrote an opera. Not quite like that, just different types of epic. Still, you're on point.



Don't worry, it was only a general comment, not specifically referred to you. I wrote that because often musicians tend to put shame on epic music without thinking to different kinds of composers and works.

Plus, this is not my work so I do what I can to study as a self-learning guy.

I'm not so good with the language so maybe it is my speaking that could be misunderstood. 



El Buhdai said:


> I had my doubts about SM Strings but I've certainly heard user songs from "better" libraries that don't sound nearly as good. It's always clear when a composer knows their libraries well.
> 
> I loved the sound of the trumpets and trombones playing effects around the middle of the song. I was sold there.
> 
> I'm not as sold when the IB French Horns play epic lines at high dynamics though. Even though I think you said you use 12 horns, it's missing the size and sound of more traditional libraries with smaller section sizes. Still better than I expected though, and I don't really use Infinite Brass for anything epic because that's just not how I write. It's fine with me that its Trombones and Horns don't do it as well as, say, Hollywood Brass. The trumpets are definitely there though.
> 
> Nice demo!



Thank you for your comment. Here the most horns parts are 4 horns only, sometime there is a fifth or sixth horn that comes in.

I have 12 horns in my template but I tend to avoid to use all of them as much as I can since I don't want to be loud for no reason.

About the high dynamics I still have to learn how to use them better but I'm actually pretty satisfied with the results. Take in mind that I still have to learn a lot how brass sounds together and how they are played in real life (I often watch at videos where real musicians explain their own instruments). If I could "access" some orchestra musicians I coud learn a lot about every instruments. Here I would need some brass players. 

Maybe I have to rebalance the sound in louder parts because the horns there tend to stick at high dynamics for a long time (simple melodies with long notes) so a long sustained note dymanics could be difficult to be well "designed". Especially with a full orchestra that is playing behind them.

Maybe I have more to play with vibrato to give them more "life", I don't know.

Are you thinking that the problem here is the "space" where they "lives"? Or is it the ensemble that doesn't work? I played the lines multiple times, I'm applying a different delay on every horn, I'm using the randomization that Aaron introduced with 1.4 and I'm even using the attack detune option. Obviously I'm using all of this carefully so little adjustements here and there.

Do you have any advice to do a better work?



El Buhdai said:


> I don't really use Infinite Brass for anything epic because that's just not how I write



About this I like to wrote in many different styles, here I would like to try epic stuff to see how this libraries behave. I like to understand what every library I use can do so I want them to be able to sound well in many different contexts.
I will try a more classical orchestral approach for the next track.


----------



## Eptesicus

El Buhdai said:


> I had my doubts about SM Strings but I've certainly heard user songs from "better" libraries that don't sound nearly as good. It's always clear when a composer knows their libraries well.
> 
> I loved the sound of the trumpets and trombones playing effects around the middle of the song. I was sold there.
> 
> I'm not as sold when the IB French Horns play epic lines at high dynamics though. Even though I think you said you use 12 horns, it's missing the size and sound of more traditional libraries with smaller section sizes. Still better than I expected though, and I don't really use Infinite Brass for anything epic because that's just not how I write. It's fine with me that its Trombones and Horns don't do it as well as, say, Hollywood Brass. The trumpets are definitely there though.
> 
> Nice demo!



I agree with this. The agility and play-ability is clearly excellent, however i have never heard it sound really "fat" or expansive. It always sounds a bit thin.

I think one would still need a more traditional library for balls to the wall style epic stuff.


----------



## DANIELE

Eptesicus said:


> I agree with this. The agility and play-ability is clearly excellent, however i have never heard it sound really "fat" or expansive. It always sounds a bit thin.
> 
> I think one would still need a more traditional library for balls to the wall style epic stuff.



Do you have in mind a particular library to compare with?

I don't want to layer other libraries so maybe comparing the sound could be useful to try to reach that sound with IB.

Maybe I could try to distance more the instruments in my virtual space, just to have a bolder sound. Or maybe I could t ry to change the space in precedence to try out how they sounds.

For IB I used the studio preset with mixed mic at a middle/ middle-far distance.


----------



## shawnsingh

Eptesicus said:


> I agree with this. The agility and play-ability is clearly excellent, however i have never heard it sound really "fat" or expansive. It always sounds a bit thin.
> 
> I think one would still need a more traditional library for balls to the wall style epic stuff.



In my template testing, compared to BB and JXL Brass, the 6 horns playing in unison sounds just as huge and thick. The buzzy bite has a different style/timbre to it, but sounds basically just as thick. 

For me, the secret to the thick sound was to slightly manually detune each instrument with pitch bend. Even just a constant offset that's different for each instrument. I know that 1.4 had the humanization features, but I still found that pushing the detune a bit further made a big difference.

Another thing I'm curious to experiment with... is to add slight bits of growl to the unison horns. I think it might add a pleasing sputtery dirtiness to the sound, which can help sell the feeling of horns playing aggressively. Like in Hollywood Brass, how you can almost hear the saliva spraying through the horns . I might not have time in the next few days to experiment with growl but if be interested to hear if anyone the tries it.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Like in Hollywood Brass, how you can almost hear the saliva spraying through the horns .



Pretty sure that's a leak in your ceiling. But yes, I know what you mean.

That timbral sizzle/buzz that you get with IB, I'm assuming a bit of EQ'ing can tame that right? I like it myself, but I often feel that this is what people are referring to when they talk about it not being as 'big'

Also, I can't remember but I'm fairly sure that this buzz appears right at the top of the mod, so you can technically leave it out by not pushing to 127 and still get that majestic feel with the horns. Again, going off memory here.

I would love to hear that experiment. Might try it myself later and post the results.


----------



## doctoremmet

Just noticed this in my feed. Watching now!
Thanks @Cory Pelizzari ! Always enjoy your videos.


----------



## DANIELE

shawnsingh said:


> In my template testing, compared to BB and JXL Brass, the 6 horns playing in unison sounds just as huge and thick. The buzzy bite has a different style/timbre to it, but sounds basically just as thick.
> 
> For me, the secret to the thick sound was to slightly manually detune each instrument with pitch bend. Even just a constant offset that's different for each instrument. I know that 1.4 had the humanization features, but I still found that pushing the detune a bit further made a big difference.
> 
> Another thing I'm curious to experiment with... is to add slight bits of growl to the unison horns. I think it might add a pleasing sputtery dirtiness to the sound, which can help sell the feeling of horns playing aggressively. Like in Hollywood Brass, how you can almost hear the saliva spraying through the horns . I might not have time in the next few days to experiment with growl but if be interested to hear if anyone the tries it.



I haven't made another comparison with "old" libraries recently but I remember the last one I did was pretty satisfying to me. I didn't detuned the instruments with 1.4 but I did with 1.3.1.

I'll try to detune them again as I did with the previous version and I'll post the track updated once it's done. How much did you detune your instruments?

About the growl where would you like to add it? To the attack of the notes or all along them?

I remember I tried something similar in the past but I wasn't pleased with the result. Maybe I have to try it again but I think it should be used sparingly to avoid a fake effect.


----------



## DivingInSpace

So, i just sat down with Infinite Woodwinds and for the first time took the time to learn how the library reacts to different input (velocity, notes, modulation) and my first impression about this having a bit of a learning curve was not totally right. I had to get a feel, but it didn't take me too long to make it sing nicely, and it is so easy on the RAM. Perfect for the template i am building! I especially like the Bassoons and Contrabassoon and look forward like crazy for the ethnic winds Aaron plans on adding down the line. The playability is so damn good that i am really considering getting the brass too even though i have century brass.


----------



## goalie composer

Also saw this pop up on my youtube feed:


----------



## DANIELE

Here's the version with slightly detuned horns, I don't hear so much difference but let me know if you hear something different from the previous one.


----------



## x-dfo

DANIELE said:


> Here's the version with slightly detuned horns, I don't hear so much difference but let me know if you hear something different from the previous one.



I personally found they sound 20% more 'epic'


----------



## DANIELE

x-dfo said:


> I personally found they sound 20% more 'epic'



Then it worked I guess!


----------



## x-dfo

DANIELE said:


> Then it worked I guess!


I think it really affected the horns in a good way tbh!


----------



## Sean J

Here's some crap I threw away cause it didn't fit what I'm writing. It just felt fun to write in the moment. This is 100% Infinite Brass, but with some slight EQ tweaks of my own using only Kontakt's EQ for the sake of keeping it fair to everyone's tools.

Also, it's a bit quiet so turn it up. I just did a RAW export. I usually mix quieter at first.



The last repeated example is horns only then horns with low bones/tuba. Good writing has resulted in the vast majority of my favorite film scores not being recorded in Lyndhurst. Rooms do color sound in a very 4th dimensional way that convolution does, but perhaps less effectively? I don't know. But I'm still happy having removed Spitfire from my template. Infinite is a joy to work with. It just does what I want. =)

The piece I'm writing is very different than this clip. I just got in a different mood and went crazy, thus I discarded this stuff. It's a string heavy piece with less intricate brass writing and let me tell you... the legato problems I've had to write around with my strings make me realize Infinite just needs to be my entire template at this point. I'm sick of midi programming just to get samples to sound legible.


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> Here's some crap I threw away cause it didn't fit what I'm writing. It just felt fun to write in the moment. This is 100% Infinite Brass, but with some slight EQ tweaks of my own using only Kontakt's EQ for the sake of keeping it fair to everyone's tools.
> 
> Also, it's a bit quiet so turn it up. I just did a RAW export. I usually mix quieter at first.
> 
> 
> 
> The last repeated example is horns only then horns with low bones/tuba. Good writing has resulted in the vast majority of my favorite film scores not being recorded in Lyndhurst. Rooms do color sound in a very 4th dimensional way that convolution does, but perhaps less effectively? I don't know. But I'm still happy having removed Spitfire from my template. Infinite is a joy to work with. It just does what I want. =)
> 
> The piece I'm writing is very different than this clip. I just got in a different mood and went crazy, thus I discarded this stuff. It's a string heavy piece with less intricate brass writing and let me tell you... the legato problems I've had to write around with my strings make me realize Infinite just needs to be my entire template at this point. I'm sick of midi programming just to get samples to sound legible.




I really like your writing. Keep giving us more music! Sounds great.

BTW those horns around 7-8 seconds sound amazing! Do you mind screenshotting the midi/cc data for that portion please?


----------



## Sean J

Oh, and the reason I posted that. Who the crap is saying the Horns can't handle loud and high? Pff... of course they can.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> BTW those horns around 7-8 seconds sound amazing! Do you mind screenshotting the midi/cc data for that portion please?









My 4 midi channels are:
Horn 1: midi channel 1 - Infinite Horn 1 & 2
Horn 2: midi channel 2 - IH 3
Horn 3: midi channel 3 - IH 4 & 5
Horn 4: midi channel 4 - IH 6

All 4 look the same for the modwheel. I copy-pasted the part, then just changed the timing at the first, as obvious from how messy it looks.

In the last example from the clip, the sustains look much more diverse, so all the players essentially balance to each other more and play a bit differently. A bit more sfz for one. A weak attack with a comeback crec for another. A blare dim for one. And a soft mod wheel with more volume to help the overall sound blend more. That sounds like a lot of tedious editing. It was just quick edits. That's just a verbose way to describe it I guess. Cubase doesn't layer CC's from different tracks, so I can't screenshot that in a layered way, thus the description instead.


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> My 4 midi channels are:
> Horn 1: midi channel 1 - Infinite Horn 1 & 2
> Horn 2: midi channel 2 - IH 3
> Horn 3: midi channel 3 - IH 4 & 5
> Horn 4: midi channel 4 - IH 6
> 
> All 4 look the same for the modwheel. I copy-pasted the part, then just changed the timing at the first, as obvious from how messy it looks.
> 
> In the last example from the clip, the sustains look much more diverse, so all the players essentially balance to each other more and play a bit differently. A bit more sfz for one. A weak attack with a comeback crec for another. A blare dim for one. And a soft mod wheel with more volume to help the overall sound blend more. That sounds like a lot of tedious editing. It was just quick edits. That's just a verbose way to describe it I guess. Cubase doesn't layer CC's from different tracks, so I can't screenshot that in a layered way, thus the description instead.



Fantastic, thanks mate. I'm learning things every day. Congrats. Hope to hear the non-discarded parts one day


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Fantastic, thanks mate. I'm learning things every day. Congrats. Hope to hear the non-discarded parts one day



Thanks. It's coming.

I should add that the reason I changed the timing was only because the lower note didn't seem to be represented evenly. Velocity didn't do it, but changing one of the horns timing was sufficient. It was already a solid performance, I just OCD'd it more than I should have.


----------



## I like music

At the risk of sounding like a spoiled brat, man I would love it if you sampled a Cornet. I'd pay an upgrade fee for that.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> I'd pay an upgrade fee for that.



SHH!!!!!! Don't give Aaron any ideas about changing his policy!!!

Though I agree with you, but 4 minimum. 1 certainly isn't enough if he went that route for those who use cornets intentionally. I tend to prefer to tame trumpet parts a bit, perhaps as the cornet was what I started on after piano. Wagner tubas would be a great addition to the horns. Flugelhorns are perhaps too common to ignore. Cimbassos are popular, ophicleide's are pointless but cool, valved bones can trill, and I'll take 4 of each with an alphorn and an order of fries and a bratwurst on the side.

Okay, maybe he should change his policy.

SSATBC recorders, crumhorn, dizi flute, duduk, uilleann pipes.... all well after harps are covered. This is why Aaron needs millions and millions and millions of dollars. Annnnnd...... back to writing.


----------



## shawnsingh

scoredfilms said:


> SHH!!!!!! Don't give Aaron any ideas about changing his policy!!!
> 
> Though I agree with you, but 4 minimum. 1 certainly isn't enough if he went that route for those who use cornets intentionally. I tend to prefer to tame trumpet parts a bit, perhaps as the cornet was what I started on after piano. Wagner tubas would be a great addition to the horns. Flugelhorns are perhaps too common to ignore. Cimbassos are popular, ophicleide's are pointless but cool, valved bones can trill, and I'll take 4 of each with an alphorn and an order of fries and a bratwurst on the side.
> 
> Okay, maybe he should change his policy.
> 
> SSATBC recorders, crumhorn, dizi flute, duduk, uilleann pipes.... all well after harps are covered. This is why Aaron needs millions and millions and millions of dollars. Annnnnd...... back to writing.



Oy, whatever happened to composing for the samples? As soon as Infinite gives us a taste of freedom, we want the whole cake


----------



## aaronventure

scoredfilms said:


> alphorn


Well, about that....


----------



## Terry93D

Aaron, your skill and generosity is astonishing.

Soon as I've got some extra cash, I'm getting these Brass and Woodwinds ya'll keep praising for myself.


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> Here's some crap I threw away cause it didn't fit what I'm writing. It just felt fun to write in the moment. This is 100% Infinite Brass, but with some slight EQ tweaks of my own using only Kontakt's EQ for the sake of keeping it fair to everyone's tools.
> 
> Also, it's a bit quiet so turn it up. I just did a RAW export. I usually mix quieter at first.
> 
> 
> 
> The last repeated example is horns only then horns with low bones/tuba. Good writing has resulted in the vast majority of my favorite film scores not being recorded in Lyndhurst. Rooms do color sound in a very 4th dimensional way that convolution does, but perhaps less effectively? I don't know. But I'm still happy having removed Spitfire from my template. Infinite is a joy to work with. It just does what I want. =)
> 
> The piece I'm writing is very different than this clip. I just got in a different mood and went crazy, thus I discarded this stuff. It's a string heavy piece with less intricate brass writing and let me tell you... the legato problems I've had to write around with my strings make me realize Infinite just needs to be my entire template at this point. I'm sick of midi programming just to get samples to sound legible.




Great writing, this is what I'd like to get from the next track I'll write.



scoredfilms said:


> SHH!!!!!! Don't give Aaron any ideas about changing his policy!!!
> 
> Though I agree with you, but 4 minimum. 1 certainly isn't enough if he went that route for those who use cornets intentionally. I tend to prefer to tame trumpet parts a bit, perhaps as the cornet was what I started on after piano. Wagner tubas would be a great addition to the horns. Flugelhorns are perhaps too common to ignore. Cimbassos are popular, ophicleide's are pointless but cool, valved bones can trill, and I'll take 4 of each with an alphorn and an order of fries and a bratwurst on the side.
> 
> Okay, maybe he should change his policy.
> 
> SSATBC recorders, crumhorn, dizi flute, duduk, uilleann pipes.... all well after harps are covered. This is why Aaron needs millions and millions and millions of dollars. Annnnnd...... back to writing.



I like Cimbassos, I'd like them to be added at some point. I'm already very satisfied with the plethora available don't get me wrong. :D


----------



## Terry93D

scoredfilms said:


> SHH!!!!!! Don't give Aaron any ideas about changing his policy!!!
> 
> Though I agree with you, but 4 minimum. 1 certainly isn't enough if he went that route for those who use cornets intentionally. I tend to prefer to tame trumpet parts a bit, perhaps as the cornet was what I started on after piano. Wagner tubas would be a great addition to the horns. Flugelhorns are perhaps too common to ignore. Cimbassos are popular, ophicleide's are pointless but cool, valved bones can trill, and I'll take 4 of each with an alphorn and an order of fries and a bratwurst on the side.
> 
> Okay, maybe he should change his policy.
> 
> SSATBC recorders, crumhorn, dizi flute, duduk, uilleann pipes.... all well after harps are covered. This is why Aaron needs millions and millions and millions of dollars. Annnnnd...... back to writing.


Cool as all of that is, my heart is set first upon the flugelhorn. Even better if there are two or three: I'd love to stick a flugelhorn section in my virtual orchestra. I'd swoon if that option were available to me.

Best not to ask too much though perhaps... especially when I don't even own the damn thing. xp (Yet!)


----------



## x-dfo

vuvuzelas or bust


----------



## Sean J

Terry93D said:


> Cool as all of that is, my heart is set first upon the flugelhorn. Even better if there are two or three: I'd love to stick a flugelhorn section in my virtual orchestra. I'd swoon if that option were available to me.
> 
> Best not to ask too much though perhaps... especially when I don't even own the damn thing. xp (Yet!)



Couldn't agree more actually! I figured more would like cornet, so I thought it would be smart to join that wagon to have a softer trumpet alternative. But I've long said I'd rather have a flugelhorn section than trumpets in the orchestra, or at least both. That's where my heart is.


----------



## Sean J

x-dfo said:


> vuvuzelas or bust



But who would buy it unless it had 64 round robins, 5 legato types, and 30 mic positions (including off stage and outside the front door of the building)? Serious instruments deserve serious attention... like a 2 terabyte triangle library proposed in the JXL Brass thread.

Aaron, any insight into Infinite Percussion you could tease us with?

My big concern is convolution. Spitfire's redux library is what converted me to wet samples away from VSL initially. It's hard to top what a hall does for just about all percussion, from low drums to celeste to even a ratchet. The hall gives both a beauty and dynamic range up to bombastic-ability to the library. Plus, rolls, superballs, bows... how agile could the percussion potentially be? I've wondered since seeing your percussion poster.


----------



## Dan

I tried something crazy from the classical repertoire again.

Here's Infinite Brass and Woodwinds playing some Shostakovich along with a mix of Cinematic Studio Strings and Adventure Strings.


----------



## DANIELE

Dan said:


> I tried something crazy from the classical repertoire again.
> 
> Here's Infinite Brass and Woodwinds playing some Shostakovich along with a mix of Cinematic Studio Strings and Adventure Strings.


----------



## I like music

Redid a quick mockup I dead a year ago. There's a few balance issues still + some lazy transcription leading to some bad chords etc but I'm very much enjoying these instruments:


----------



## Denkii

Again: The student discount is higher than the discount for IB or the current discount for the bundle.
There is no need to rush since EDU is always the cheapest option - at least up until now.
Get one now, get the other one later, both with EDU. Most money saved.


----------



## TGV

Ok, I joined the Venture Gang too, and I must say: Infinite Brass is a joy. Very playable, *and* good sounding. I've been mucking about, plugging my old breath controller (a Yamaha BC3) back in again, trying to get a feel for the controllers. Here's my first attempt at a four part trombone ditty with some close voicing. Not sure about the EQ'ing, though.


----------



## El Buhdai

Someone should make an "Infinite Demos" thread for us that contains all the demos people post in this thread with a quote of the original message they wrote to go with it. This thread is 60 pages long now!


----------



## Geocranium

El Buhdai said:


> Someone should make an "Infinite Demos" thread for us that contains all the demos people post in this thread with a quote of the original message they wrote to go with it. This thread is 60 pages long now!



Seconding this, I check this thread frequently just to hear what people are writing with the library. It's not even because I'm trying to find justification to purchase it or anything like that, I just like listening to pieces featuring brass.


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> Someone should make an "Infinite Demos" thread for us that contains all the demos people post in this thread with a quote of the original message they wrote to go with it.


I may do that this week. Like most people I have to stay indoors, but I am also recovering from serious heart failure so I have been at home / not working for almost three quarters of a year now. I may be more bored than most, and have less to worry about doing daily chores or my job. I have been thinking the same for a while now, so I may do this. Bear with me though, because I don’t have a lot of energy, so it may take a while.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> I may do that this week. Like most people I have to stay indoors, but I am also recovering from serious heart failure so I have been at home / not working for almost three quarters of a year now. I may be more bored than most, and have less to worry about doing daily chores or my job. I have been thinking the same for a while now, so I may do this. Bear with me though, because I don’t have a lot of energy, so it may take a while.


Stay safe and wishing you a total recovery.


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> I may do that this week. Like most people I have to stay indoors, but I am also recovering from serious heart failure so I have been at home / not working for almost three quarters of a year now. I may be more bored than most, and have less to worry about doing daily chores or my job. I have been thinking the same for a while now, so I may do this. Bear with me though, because I don’t have a lot of energy, so it may take a while.



Sorry to hear about your health. I hope you recover well. Maybe this could prove to be a fun distraction when you're up to it. No rush.


----------



## Denkii

Cory Pelizzari said:


> For those of you with Kontakt 6 full, just thought I'd chuck these out there for those of you using the brass. It's a set of completely dry patches for the instruments, with the convolution disabled so you can position the bone dry sound wherever you want:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dropbox - File Deleted
> 
> 
> Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are for when you want to pan and use your own reverb for the dry sounds (like Seventh Heaven for example).


Set up video for *exactly* this please?
What do I have to do to make you consider it? :emoji_angel:


----------



## Cory Pelizzari

Denkii said:


> Set up video for *exactly* this please?
> What do I have to do to make you consider it? :emoji_angel:


It's quite simple - pan left or right then throw Seventh Heaven on it and tweak the wetness knob and the early/late reflection knob. Before I got Seventh Heaven this would require an EQ, two reverbs and another EQ, but now my life has been blessed with Seventh Heaven, which I'll have a video for on Thursday.

... And yes, I will follow up with a video showing how I use both Seventh Heaven and my old convoluted (pun intended) setup with Infinite Brass and a couple other libraries.


----------



## Denkii

Cory Pelizzari said:


> ... And yes, I will follow up with a video showing how I use both Seventh Heaven and my old convoluted (pun intended) setup with Infinite Brass and a couple other libraries.


My body is so ready for this.


----------



## TGV

Denkii said:


> My body is so ready for this.


But is your wallet?


----------



## Denkii

TGV said:


> But is your wallet?


I already have seventh heaven.
And I somehow got talked into getting infinite brass and winds too. All set.


----------



## Cory Pelizzari

Denkii said:


> My body is so ready for this.


I decided I'll also share my Seventh Heaven presets for the video, which will work in the standard version of Seventh Heaven.


----------



## kelexys

Will there be an Infinite Strings, Percussion and Piano in the future ?


----------



## DivingInSpace

kelexys said:


> Will there be an Infinite Strings, Percussion and Piano in the future ?


His website mentions both strings and percussion, and as far as i remember the strings are in development (but i might be wrong)


----------



## Cory Pelizzari

DivingInSpace said:


> His website mentions both strings and percussion, and as far as i remember the strings are in development (but i might be wrong)


Strings and percussion definitely. Not sure about the piano. I don't know if the percussion is being recorded anytime soon but from what I hear the strings are the main focus alongside the woodwinds update. Still might be a while though cause Aaron likes to get things near perfect before even considering a release date.


----------



## kelexys

I can imagine when they have finished the strings and percussion , the whole package would be a go to orchestral library. Brass and woodwinds both sound amazing! Amazing work. So a piano, with the same quality and playability , would be a game changer


----------



## DivingInSpace

Cory Pelizzari said:


> Strings and percussion definitely. Not sure about the piano. I don't know if the percussion is being recorded anytime soon but from what I hear the strings are the main focus alongside the woodwinds update. Still might be a while though cause Aaron likes to get things near perfect before even considering a release date.


Yeah, and honestly that's the best way to do it in my opinion, i hate when companies think it is okay to let paying costumers be betatesters.
I don't really see what he would be able to do with a piano that haven't already been done by lots of others. Maybe the whole infinite round robin approach, but except for that i am not sure. I am really looking forward to the strings though, and woodwinds update. Even if you have better sounding libraries the current ones are unmatched as writing and sketching tools!


----------



## El Buhdai

DivingInSpace said:


> Yeah, and honestly that's the best way to do it in my opinion, i hate when companies think it is okay to let paying costumers be betatesters.
> I don't really see what he would be able to do with a piano that haven't already been done by lots of others. Maybe the whole infinite round robin approach, but except for that i am not sure. I am really looking forward to the strings though, and woodwinds update. Even if you have better sounding libraries the current ones are unmatched as writing and sketching tools!



Round robins, positioning and depth, and that delicious reverb! I'm not sure it'll be a big enough improvement over other libraries to justify the amount of work it would require.


----------



## Terry93D

Finally made the plunge and purchased the brass and woodwinds. The prospect of a 30-person horn (thanks to transpositions) section was almost enough by itself to convince me even without adding in the prospect of a 9-person bassoon section or the saxophones and the bass oboe.

(Fingers crossed now for soprano saxes and flugelhorns!)


----------



## I like music

Terry93D said:


> Finally made the plunge and purchased the brass and woodwinds. The prospect of a 30-person horn (thanks to transpositions) section was almost enough by itself to convince me even without adding in the prospect of a 9-person bassoon section or the saxophones and the bass oboe.
> 
> (Fingers crossed now for soprano saxes and flugelhorns!)


9 bassoons! Lets hear it :D


----------



## Terry93D

I like music said:


> 9 bassoons! Lets hear it :D


Given that you can transpose by both a semitone and a whole tone, I think it's actually 15...


----------



## I like music

Terry93D said:


> Given that you can transpose by both a semitone and a whole tone, I think it's actually 15...



I think after 11 bassoons it becomes pointless


----------



## Terry93D

The more I use them, the more I'm impressed. Even without a keyboard to perform with, the Infinite series instruments are malleable, flexible, playable, frequently beautiful, realistic, and altogether fantastic and stunning, and they have supplanted completely the hodge-podge of brass and winds from various libraries that I was using prior. I may still find use for some instruments from that hodge-podge eventually, but at this point in time, I don't need them.

I still feel as though I have barely scratched the surface of what they can do. I have not messed with vibrato rate or depth yet, much less flutter and growl. Truly, it's a testament to the quality of the instruments and the programming that they are so usable even without diving into vibrato control, even w/out a MIDI keyboard w/ modwheel or ribbon controller to perform with.

I frankly can not wait for the Winds update with the QoL features (such as the seating map) that the Brass has. And I am equally excited to see what the Infinite Strings will look like, for they surely are going to the trickiest to work with given the huge variety of playing techniques that come standard to strings. I look forward also to further growth in the winds and brass libraries (though I understand that, aside from the big Winds update, that these are going to take second or even third priority to Strings and Percussion).


----------



## x-dfo

Terry93D said:


> The more I use them, the more I'm impressed. Even without a keyboard to perform with, the Infinite series instruments are malleable, flexible, playable, frequently beautiful, realistic, and altogether fantastic and stunning, and they have supplanted completely the hodge-podge of brass and winds from various libraries that I was using prior. I may still find use for some instruments from that hodge-podge eventually, but at this point in time, I don't need them.
> 
> I still feel as though I have barely scratched the surface of what they can do. I have not messed with vibrato rate or depth yet, much less flutter and growl. Truly, it's a testament to the quality of the instruments and the programming that they are so usable even without diving into vibrato control, even w/out a MIDI keyboard w/ modwheel or ribbon controller to perform with.
> 
> I frankly can not wait for the Winds update with the QoL features (such as the seating map) that the Brass has. And I am equally excited to see what the Infinite Strings will look like, for they surely are going to the trickiest to work with given the huge variety of playing techniques that come standard to strings. I look forward also to further growth in the winds and brass libraries (though I understand that, aside from the big Winds update, that these are going to take second or even third priority to Strings and Percussion).


I have the sample modelling strings and they're pretty good to great, but they are cpu hungry and you still have to keyswitch things like harmonics, tremolo, hand position. It's also not a simple task to get really hard staccatos, there's like 3 CC's plus velocity to consider. It's also very easy to sound 'wrong' with all these settings. 

For infinite strings I'd like to see a focus on playability and sound sweetspots, with maybe some major 'role' settings like flautando, tremolo, etc. I am really excited for this library and am happy to wait a while to get something that plays and sounds like brass for strings.


----------



## TGV

So, I've been playing some more with IB and IW, and I've mocked up the first 26 bars of the Largo from Dvorak's New World symphony. I had some balancing (woodwinds are pretty loud in comparison to brass, and the bassoon was even louder, I think) and EQ'ing issues (I took off quite a bit of high), and the solution to getting the three (four?) libraries (strings are Samplemodeling, percussion is EW Hollywood) to sound similar is not perfect, but since this piece is mainly woodwinds and brass, it works for me. Tempo (and some interpretation details) was taken from a recording.


----------



## I like music

TGV said:


> So, I've been playing some more with IB and IW, and I've mocked up the first 26 bars of the Largo from Dvorak's New World symphony. I had some balancing (woodwinds are pretty loud in comparison to brass, and the bassoon was even louder, I think) and EQ'ing issues (I took off quite a bit of high), and the solution to getting the three (four?) libraries (strings are Samplemodeling, percussion is EW Hollywood) to sound similar is not perfect, but since this piece is mainly woodwinds and brass, it works for me. Tempo (and some interpretation details) was taken from a recording.


Superb! Love it. I have the exact same libraries and was thinking of mocking this exact thing up!

How are you setting your SM strings with Infinite? I can't find a happy place to put them in the same space. Would love to know the settings you've used for both (if you have the time or the energy!)

PS You can tell there's some more tone work to be done on the winds. Brass sounding much more impressive right now. Nice mockup!

PS regarding woodwinds balance. Yes, I found the woods to be really quite powerful and upfront, so I had to reduce their volume by quite a bit.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> regarding woodwinds balance. Yes, I found the woods to be really quite powerful and upfront, so I had to reduce their volume by quite a bit.



Yeah this volume decrease came with 1.4 and it messed up the mixes of so many of my existing projects. I'm still working on fixing things. I personally preferred it when the brass were loud out of the box like the woodwinds.

I'd rather have more gain than I need and ease back the excess volume with whatever volume knob or slider I choose than have to figure out how to coax additional volume out of a library. Since no built-in volume knob in history (from Kontakt or a DAW) that I know of has nearly enough max gain for orchestral libraries, I often have to load additional plugins to bring samples up, which just leads to heavier projects overall.

This was one headache I was thankful didn't exist in Infinite Brass and Woodwinds before IB 1.4.


----------



## Cory Pelizzari

El Buhdai said:


> Since no built-in volume knob in history (from Kontakt or a DAW) that I know of has nearly enough max gain for orchestral libraries, I often have to load additional plugins to bring samples up, which just leads to heavier projects overall.


Are you trying to blow the next door neighbours' house away or do you have your speakers and channels all turned down by accident? You can easily clip your master fader at 0dB (which you absolutely don't want to do with a single instrument or set of instruments prior to the last stages of mastering) by turning up the volume +12dB in the Kontakt instrument and playing at the loudest dynamic - if all your faders are at default settings and your interface is sending medium level audio to your speakers and headphones it should sound very loud. If not then try turning up the gain to your speakers/headphones. 

If you do actually need to use plugins to increase your volume to a comfortable level then either something's not right with your DAW and/or audio interface... Or you actually are attempting to relocate a house.


----------



## El Buhdai

Cory Pelizzari said:


> Are you trying to blow the next door neighbours' house away or do you have your speakers and channels all turned down by accident? You can easily clip your master fader at 0dB (which you absolutely don't want to do with a single instrument or set of instruments prior to the last stages of mastering) by turning up the volume +12dB in the Kontakt instrument and playing at the loudest dynamic - if all your faders are at default settings and your interface is sending medium level audio to your speakers and headphones it should sound very loud. If not then try turning up the gain to your speakers/headphones.
> 
> If you do actually need to use plugins to increase your volume to a comfortable level then either something's not right with your DAW and/or audio interface... Or you actually are attempting to relocate a house.



Right after I wrote that I tried the volume slider in Kontakt again and found that you *can* clip at +12db. The problem isn't the inability to get sufficient gain for me to hear orchestral libraries (like most other composers I've got speakers that can get as long as I need with a amp for even more loudness) my problem has often been with having sufficient gain to make radical volume changes during the mixing process, and getting a good volume on a final export without clipping. That last part just comes with mastering experience I suppose. 

Either way I'll eat my words here. Quick question though. I noticed in your YouTube review for this library that you use mixed mic settings with different distances for each horn in your section. I found that it made for a deeper, fuller sound than what you get out of the box. What settings did you use to achieve that?


----------



## x-dfo

El Buhdai said:


> Right after I wrote that I tried the volume slider in Kontakt again and found that you *can* clip at +12db. The problem isn't the inability to get sufficient gain for me to hear orchestral libraries (like most other composers I've got speakers that can get as long as I need with a amp for even more loudness) my problem has often been with having sufficient gain to make radical volume changes during the mixing process, and getting a good volume on a final export without clipping. That last part just comes with mastering experience I suppose.
> 
> Either way I'll eat my words here. Quick question though. I noticed in your YouTube review for this library that you use mixed mic settings with different distances for each horn in your section. I found that it made for a deeper, fuller sound than what you get out of the box. What settings did you use to achieve that?


I use mixed mics personally and vary them as well, it's a bit easier with WW because it's just near vs far, having 1 or 2 in an ensemble being further I find gives girth. With brass there's more options and some instruments i find sound more real (or what I'm used to hearing as real) depending on the amount of Main mic is in the ratio. Having 2 tubas, one on scoring stage and the other on mozarteum is pretty cool sounding.


----------



## purple

Cory Pelizzari said:


> Are you trying to blow the next door neighbours' house away or do you have your speakers and channels all turned down by accident? You can easily clip your master fader at 0dB (which you absolutely don't want to do with a single instrument or set of instruments prior to the last stages of mastering) by turning up the volume +12dB in the Kontakt instrument and playing at the loudest dynamic - if all your faders are at default settings and your interface is sending medium level audio to your speakers and headphones it should sound very loud. If not then try turning up the gain to your speakers/headphones.
> 
> If you do actually need to use plugins to increase your volume to a comfortable level then either something's not right with your DAW and/or audio interface... Or you actually are attempting to relocate a house.


Yeah, all the tracks on my templates are turned down several dB otherwise most of them would clip at even reasonable moderate dynamic levels. I think this guy is doing something wrong.


----------



## El Buhdai

purple said:


> Yeah, all the tracks on my templates are turned down several dB otherwise most of them would clip at even reasonable moderate dynamic levels. I think this guy is doing something wrong.



On my end, you can play 6 horns at max dynamics out of the box and barely make it half way to 0dB after 1.4


----------



## Cory Pelizzari

El Buhdai said:


> Quick question though. I noticed in your YouTube review for this library that you use mixed mic settings with different distances for each horn in your section. I found that it made for a deeper, fuller sound than what you get out of the box. What settings did you use to achieve that?


I used 5 horns with 3 of them set to 5 on the mixed mic, one set to 4 and another set to 3, all of them using the Mozarteum reverb. I like to have a couple of horns slightly closer to make the ensemble sound a little deeper. That way you also get more definition from the short notes.


----------



## I like music

Cory Pelizzari said:


> I used 5 horns with 3 of them set to 5 on the mixed mic, one set to 4 and another set to 3, all of them using the Mozarteum reverb. I like to have a couple of horns slightly closer to make the ensemble sound a little deeper. That way you also get more definition from the short notes.


interesting. have never ever thought about placing them in this way. my OCD suffers hugely but i may give it a try and see!


----------



## DANIELE

I actually put them at different distances with the spatialization plugin I use but I could give a try playing with distances in the gui. I remember I did this for some instrument in the past but I don't remember which actually.


----------



## El Buhdai

Cory Pelizzari said:


> I used 5 horns with 3 of them set to 5 on the mixed mic, one set to 4 and another set to 3, all of them using the Mozarteum reverb. I like to have a couple of horns slightly closer to make the ensemble sound a little deeper. That way you also get more definition from the short notes.



The difference was immediately noticeable just from listening. That's why I looked at your settings in the first place. Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for the review!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> interesting. have never ever thought about placing them in this way. my OCD suffers hugely but i may give it a try and see!



You should. I could tell something was different about his section as I was watching the review and I looked closer to see.


----------



## x-dfo

Hmm 6 horns for me takes me to about -7db, it's plenty loud in my headphones. Lowest is about -55 at lowest dynamic, softest playing humanly possible. That's quite a range!


----------



## purple

El Buhdai said:


> On my end, you can play 6 horns at max dynamics out of the box and barely make it half way to 0dB after 1.4


I wasn't specifically referring to this brass library. I don't have it so I don't know about it.


----------



## El Buhdai

x-dfo said:


> Hmm 6 horns for me takes me to about -7db, it's plenty loud in my headphones. Lowest is about -55 at lowest dynamic, softest playing humanly possible. That's quite a range!



Oh yeah the range is incredible, there's no disputing that! I still think Infinite Brass does the warm and inviting tone of a quiet French Horn the best.


----------



## TGV

I like music said:


> Superb! Love it. I have the exact same libraries and was thinking of mocking this exact thing up!
> 
> How are you setting your SM strings with Infinite? I can't find a happy place to put them in the same space. Would love to know the settings you've used for both (if you have the time or the energy!)
> 
> PS You can tell there's some more tone work to be done on the winds. Brass sounding much more impressive right now. Nice mockup!
> 
> PS regarding woodwinds balance. Yes, I found the woods to be really quite powerful and upfront, so I had to reduce their volume by quite a bit.


Thanks!

The strings and the woodwinds are 5dB below brass (and 9dB below percussion). I use the dry patches, then Virtual Sound Stage for panning, and an IR reverb. But I first used Logic's matching EQ to get a sound similar to Spitfire Strings (because I found it closer in character to the IB and IW sound), and then reconstructed that using Logic's normal EQ, and adapted it a bit (see attachment for end result), because SM Strings default sound was not to my taste. EQ on winds was a -6dB shelf at 1500Hz, and on brass the same plus a roll-off of 6dB at 60Hz. I used the mixed mic 5 for brass, and similar settings on the WW mics, but with some variation in the close mic position.

And indeed, the brass sounds more "in space" than the woodwinds, and I didn't encounter a single irregularity in them. I also felt they were more controllable. If Aaron can improve the woodwinds, that would be great indeed.

One nitpick: the brass manual speaks about a 30ms delay, but in comparison with the percussion, I found it to be 100 - 120ms.


----------



## DANIELE

I almost finished a monumental track more than 7 minutes long.

I still have to correct something and rebalance some parts but I think it shows these intruments in different kind of passages. I hope to share it with you soon.


----------



## doctoremmet

Hey guys. I still didn’t get around to organising all the demo tracks in a separate thread yet, but I am still committed to do so.

In the mean time a free piano instrument (Novel Piano, by Sonic Atoms) distracted me. It’s weirdly inviting to play around with, albeit it has a limited dynamic range and very small memory footprint. I made a very quick demo with it, also to play with my new reverb plugin (Seventh Heaven light edition, thanks @Cory Pelizzari it IS gorgeous). 

Anyhow. Since there is a couple of Infinite Brass horn 1 notes on there (bathing in Seventh Heaven hall) I figured I might as well leave this here. Please be kind, I’m not very experienced and I don’t have a clue about mixing, EQ’ing and all that stuff. Just a piano guy with a hobby  and no aspirations other than having fun and enjoying music.



I hope I can start my “Aaron Venture demo thread” (no talking, just demos, links to demos in this thread) tomorrow. Will keep you posted. Cheers.


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> Hey guys. I still didn’t get around to organising all the demo tracks in a separate thread yet, but I am still committed to do so.
> 
> In the mean time a free piano instrument (Novel Piano, by Sonic Atoms) distracted me. It’s weirdly inviting to play around with, albeit it has a limited dynamic range and very small memory footprint. I made a very quick demo with it, also to play with my new reverb plugin (Seventh Heaven light edition, thanks @Cory Pelizzari it IS gorgeous).
> 
> Anyhow. Since there is a couple of Infinite Brass horn 1 notes on there (bathing in Seventh Heaven hall) I figured I might as well leave this here. Please be kind, I’m not very experienced and I don’t have a clue about mixing, EQ’ing and all that stuff. Just a piano guy with a hobby  and no aspirations other than having fun and enjoying music.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope I can start my “Aaron Venture demo thread” (no talking, just demos, links to demos in this thread) tomorrow. Will keep you posted. Cheers.




Debating between getting Seventh Heaven or Genesis at the moment. So you like how Seventh Heaven mixes with Infinite? How does it fare with other orchestral libraries? I've noticed that tracks using it always sound have a very dreamy soundstage (not a bad thing) and professional quality to them


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> So you like how Seventh Heaven mixes with Infinite? How does it fare with other orchestral libraries?


I only actually recorded the one thing I posted on the Aaron Venture Infinite thread. here (edit: sorry I got confused there hehe). It has just the four or so notes of IB1.4 horn #1 on it, bathing in a 3.0 second Sandor Hall from Seventh Heaven, I'd say 50% wet mix. The celli on that recording are Soaring Strings legato celli, they have the same verb but are wetter IIRC. You really shouldn't ask me anything too technical, as I am a noob in many respects. I did try Seventh Heaven on 8dio Century Strings and on IW1.1 and it sounds gorgeous to my ears. Maybe you can direct your questions to @Cory Pelizzari - since he is way more professional than yours truly and judging by his raving review it has brought about a revolutionary improvement in his workflow, especially when it comes to placing (orchestral) instruments in a room. So Cory, if you have the time and energy, feel free to chime in here.


----------



## I like music

TGV said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The strings and the woodwinds are 5dB below brass (and 9dB below percussion). I use the dry patches, then Virtual Sound Stage for panning, and an IR reverb. But I first used Logic's matching EQ to get a sound similar to Spitfire Strings (because I found it closer in character to the IB and IW sound), and then reconstructed that using Logic's normal EQ, and adapted it a bit (see attachment for end result), because SM Strings default sound was not to my taste. EQ on winds was a -6dB shelf at 1500Hz, and on brass the same plus a roll-off of 6dB at 60Hz. I used the mixed mic 5 for brass, and similar settings on the WW mics, but with some variation in the close mic position.
> 
> And indeed, the brass sounds more "in space" than the woodwinds, and I didn't encounter a single irregularity in them. I also felt they were more controllable. If Aaron can improve the woodwinds, that would be great indeed.
> 
> One nitpick: the brass manual speaks about a 30ms delay, but in comparison with the percussion, I found it to be 100 - 120ms.



This is fantastic and very helpful, thank you! From memory I also had my strings and woods at the same volume. That is somehow comforting to know


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Debating between getting Seventh Heaven or Genesis at the moment. So you like how Seventh Heaven mixes with Infinite? How does it fare with other orchestral libraries? I've noticed that tracks using it always sound have a very dreamy soundstage (not a bad thing) and professional quality to them



Genesis is amazing.
I don't have Seventh Heaven and really want it. But I do have Genesis, and I can say that you should believe the hype. That's all.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> I don't have Seventh Heaven


To be perfectly clear: I have the non-pro version and the presets on there are excellent. It's EUR 69 and great value for money.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> To be perfectly clear: I have the non-pro version and the presets on there are excellent. It's EUR 69 and great value for money.


What? Only 69? I thought this thing cost 400 Eur or something. Have I completely misremembered what it costs?!


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Have I completely misremembered what it costs


The "light version" has the same gorgeous sound, but way less parameters and approx. 50% of the presets of the actual M7. The pro version is around EUR 299 I believe. However, based on Cory Pelizzari’s review I decided to purchase the non-pro version - just for the sound.

I do agree with @El Buhdai that the tails of this reverb are dreamy, or even "creamy" 

Here you go:


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> The "light version" has the same gorgeous sound, but way less parameters and approx. 50% of the presets of the actual M7. The pro version is around EUR 299 I believe. However, based on Cory Pellizari's review I decided to purchase the non-pro version - just for the sound.
> 
> I do agree with @El Buhdai that the tails of this reverb are dreamy, or even "creamy"
> 
> Here you go:



Oh wow. I did not know that a non-pro version existed. I have Reverberate 2 and I wondered if Seventh Heaven might be something to look at.

Seventh Heaven has some placement capabilities?


----------



## doctoremmet

This non-pro version has the same great "Bricasti M7" sound. But is way cheaper. I mainly used the presets, especially the churches and the halls. They are excellent. I did some tweaking, but in order to go all the way in-depth one needs the pro version I believe. However, realizing that we're dealing with a convolution reverb here, I was amazed at the level of control even this "starter version" has on offer. At least it is way more than other convo reverbs - that I'm aware of anyway. Maybe check Cory Pelizzari's review on Youtube. If I am not mistaken he based his initial judgment on the non-pro version but did mention that given his enthusiasm he decided to get the Pro version, although he also did note that for a lot of folks the light edition so to speak could be more than enough, depending on their needs to really be able to go deep or not. I am firmly rooted in the category that does not need those options, being merely a hobbyist myself. The sound is beautiful however.


----------



## x-dfo

I like music said:


> Genesis is amazing.
> I don't have Seventh Heaven and really want it. But I do have Genesis, and I can say that you should believe the hype. That's all.


I can't actually google this, too many other things are named genesis - do you have a link?


----------



## doctoremmet

Is ‘t Genesis a reverb pedal?


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> I can't actually google this, too many other things are named genesis - do you have a link?



https://audiobro.com/genesis-childrens-choir/ (AudioBro's Genesis Children's choir). Fantastic choir library!


----------



## Sean J

doctoremmet said:


> no talking, just demos...



Good luck with that. 

I've had to step away from everything (money tends to drive decisions), but I haven't forgotten this. A demo-only thread would be very welcome. Cheers!


----------



## DANIELE

In the mean time here's a rough mix of my last work, I think I still have to work a lot on it but I'm very tired, I worked on it many hours and I hope I did something good.









Obi Wan Rough Mix - Clyp


Listen to Obi Wan Rough Mix | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it





It is a track I dedicated to Obi Wan, I did a lot of research on how to write it, and I tried to do my best. I tried to build a good theme but well...enjoy.

Please, as always, give me some useful advices if you want.

I'll post this in the SM thread too but tomorrow since I'd like to ask something more about it.


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> I only actually recorded the one thing I posted on the Aaron Venture Infinite thread. here (edit: sorry I got confused there hehe). It has just the four or so notes of IB1.4 horn #1 on it, bathing in a 3.0 second Sandor Hall from Seventh Heaven, I'd say 50% wet mix. The celli on that recording are Soaring Strings legato celli, they have the same verb but are wetter IIRC. You really shouldn't ask me anything too technical, as I am a noob in many respects. I did try Seventh Heaven on 8dio Century Strings and on IW1.1 and it sounds gorgeous to my ears. Maybe you can direct your questions to @Cory Pelizzari - since he is way more professional than yours truly and judging by his raving review it has brought about a revolutionary improvement in his workflow, especially when it comes to placing (orchestral) instruments in a room. So Cory, if you have the time and energy, feel free to chime in here.



Ah don't be so down on yourself, we're all learning. Thanks for the response! Also yeah, I think Cory beats a lot of us when it comes to this music thing. Huge respect for the dude.


x-dfo said:


> I can't actually google this, too many other things are named genesis - do you have a link?



Genesis is excellent. I've actually tried it because I don't have money to waste on libraries I won't like, but I always buy libraries before putting them in _any_ music of mine. I like music is right about this library. Believe the hype.


----------



## Laptoprabbit

Here's a snippet of BBCSO strings with IB. IB is Mozarteum with the 3rd Mixed Mic, I haven't done anything to either in terms of effects. Any advice for blending?


----------



## Cory Pelizzari

Laptoprabbit said:


> Here's a snippet of BBCSO strings with IB. IB is Mozarteum with the 3rd Mixed Mic, I haven't done anything to either in terms of effects. Any advice for blending?


Hmm, they sound similar in terms of darkness so I'd say a dash of reverb would help with blending. Also cutting some low mids at around 450hz will help with the instruments' body competing with each other. If you want to bring out a bit more of the perceived warmth in the brass (like Spitfire brass) you can boost the 2khz range a bit (if you do that you may want to slightly decrease the string's 2khz to make room for the brass) and apply a high cut filter anywhere between 8khz and 12khz.


----------



## El Buhdai

Laptoprabbit said:


> Here's a snippet of BBCSO strings with IB. IB is Mozarteum with the 3rd Mixed Mic, I haven't done anything to either in terms of effects. Any advice for blending?



I don't own any Spitfire libraries, so I'm not sure how to blend those specific products with Infinite, but I have blended them with CSS and Hollywood Strings so here's some general advice:

1. Nail down your strings first. Most libraries, especially string libraries, aren't as flexible as Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, which can be dry and sound like they're two feet away, or be wet and sound like they're playing on the opposite end of a concert hall.

You can strongarm string libraries into a few different sounds, but generally there are some things about them that just don't seem to change. Determine the distance and character of your strings first. They're the heart of the orchestra. Yours sound very close in the demo which isn't a bad thing in some cases, but larger symphonic ensembles typically have a mix that sounds farther away to accommodate the size of the orchestra.

2. Once you've got your strings sounding the way you want, then you can try to make Infinite Brass fit in with them. Since your strings sound so close, I would either push them back and keep Infinite's settings the way they are, or move Infinite brass closer.

3. Make your mic settings relative. You said you're using the 3rd mix right? Well I think Infinite's Tuba starts on 5 to preserve depth. You can move some of the instruments in a section forward and some backwards (which is a trick I learned from Cory) to provide a better sense of depth and make the ensembles sound less like a lump (this isn't a criticism of your work, it's just the way the library sounds without any tweaking) and more like a group. Finally, I would detune each instrument (except section leaders) up or down slightly. Between -20 and 20 cents should do it.

EDIT: Oh! And based on your other demo with just Infinite Brass, I would find a way to make the other instruments a little quieter and make the trumpets slightly louder so you can decrease their dynamic level. The IB trumpets tend to get bright very fast, even at moderate dynamic levels. This can sometimes hinder a cue that's supposed to sound warm and quiet. You can fix this with volume, mic positions, eq, or a combination of the three. I don't know how helpful this message is, but I tried and I hope something I said during all this rambling is of any use!


----------



## doctoremmet

scoredfilms said:


> A demo-only thread would be very welcome


Good news: I have started working on it. May take a while though but it is coming.


----------



## Laptoprabbit

@Cory Pelizzari @El Buhdai Thanks for the detailed advice! I'll try applying some EQ and changing some mic settings around.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Fantastic choir library!


Reading “Children’s choir”.... and I’m immediately transported back to 1987 and this track:


----------



## El Buhdai

Guys, I know Infinite Brass owners are a bit of a niche, and I know VI-Composers using FL Studio are even rarer, but I've been working on some advanced routing in the DAW and a custom UI that allows you to control all instruments in a section at the same time and separately with the click of a button, and control most of their essential CC controls from a custom UI. I'm more than happy to share the entire project here with everything set and working if there's any interest. It's been a huge game-changer for me even just working in this test project where I'm building it.

Features:
- An "Ensemble" button that, when enabled, makes all instruments in a section play the same MIDI and receive the same CC messages. When this button is off, all instruments can be controlled separately like normal. Divisi! _This button can be toggled with MIDI _(CC 22 by default), and whatever instrument you toggle it on with will suddenly be accompanied by all the other instruments in its section. That way, you don't even have to change the instrument you're recording or writing with. Just send a CC message on any of them and you've got an ensemble!

- Custom UI (via Patcher) that pulls most of the essential settings into one place. Quickly toggle Mixed Mic or apply mutes to all instruments in the section at once, or simply control their modulation and vibrato without having to write it or paste it up to 6 times.

Until now, I've had to choose. Do I save time by using Infinite Brass as multi-timbral instruments in Kontakt, while sacrificing additional control and nuance in the process? Or, do I maintain that control and nuance by using the instruments separately, but sacrifice my ability to experiment quickly since I have to write things over and over or copy-paste? With this, I can get the best of both worlds!






Everything you see here except the keyboard works and will control the entire ensemble at once when the "Ensemble" button is pressed.


----------



## Laptoprabbit

Following Cory's and El Buhdai's advice, I've

cut some mids (450Hz) from the brass
moved IB closer to match the strings
staggered some mic positions in sections
detuned some instruments in the section
lowered the dynamics on the trumpets and raised the volume to make them a bit mellower
Hopefully this version sounds a bit better!

Edit: also attached old.


----------



## DANIELE

Here's a better mastered version:









Obi Wan Mastering 001 - Clyp


Listen to Obi Wan Mastering 001 | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it





Since you are talking about mix and positioning have you some advice here? I think the mix and the balance are already pretty good but maybe some more expert ear could help me.

Thank you.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Guys, I know Infinite Brass owners are a bit of a niche, and I know VI-Composers using FL Studio are even rarer, but I've been working on some advanced routing in the DAW and a custom UI that allows you to control all instruments in a section at the same time and separately with the click of a button, and control most of their essential CC controls from a custom UI. I'm more than happy to share the entire project here with everything set and working if there's any interest. It's been a huge game-changer for me even just working in this test project where I'm building it.
> 
> Features:
> - An "Ensemble" button that, when enabled, makes all instruments in a section play the same MIDI and receive the same CC messages. When this button is off, all instruments can be controlled separately like normal. Divisi! _This button can be toggled with MIDI _(CC 22 by default), and whatever instrument you toggle it on with will suddenly be accompanied by all the other instruments in its section. That way, you don't even have to change the instrument you're recording or writing with. Just send a CC message on any of them and you've got an ensemble!
> 
> - Custom UI (via Patcher) that pulls most of the essential settings into one place. Quickly toggle Mixed Mic or apply mutes to all instruments in the section at once, or simply control their modulation and vibrato without having to write it or paste it up to 6 times.
> 
> Until now, I've had to choose. Do I save time by using Infinite Brass as multi-timbral instruments in Kontakt, while sacrificing additional control and nuance in the process? Or, do I maintain that control and nuance by using the instruments separately, but sacrifice my ability to experiment quickly since I have to write things over and over or copy-paste? With this, I can get the best of both worlds!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything you see here except the keyboard works and will control the entire ensemble at once when the "Ensemble" button is pressed.


Oh mannnn. I wish there were a way to do this in Cubase. Anyone know if it is possible?


----------



## shawnsingh

I'm not understanding the patcher idea you set up, can you please clarify more? Specifically how is it different than just selecting multiple midi tracks to play the ensemble, or individual tracks to play solo? Between that and the CC 64 sketch mode, I don't feel like I'm having to do any copy pasting until I'm actually looking to orchestrate and perform things properly.


----------



## shawnsingh

In cubase, would the same thing be achievable by midi sends and having some shortcut to turn the sends on and off?


----------



## doctoremmet

So the journey has begun... and an epic journey it will be...

It involves a new thread here, that in turn will contain links to a Google Sheet (with links to all relevant VI posts). It involves a Soundcloud playlist that I'm making right now, containing all demos posted here, and it involves a (mobile phone only) progressive web app (Android | IOS) that allows you to access all these sources from the couch  

So, I am on page 4 of this thread right now hahaha. May take a while, but I'm enjoying myself.
Teaser: 

View attachment AV demos app teaser.mp4


----------



## Dan

doctoremmet said:


> So the journey has begun... and an epic journey it will be...
> 
> It involves a new thread here, that in turn will contain links to a Google Sheet (with links to all relevant VI posts). It involves a Soundcloud playlist that I'm making right now, containing all demos posted here, and it involves a (mobile phone only) progressive web app (Android | IOS) that allows you to access all these sources from the couch
> 
> So, I am on page 4 of this thread right now hahaha. May take a while, but I'm enjoying myself.
> Teaser:
> 
> View attachment AV demos app teaser.mp4



Wow, that is very impressive!


----------



## doctoremmet

Dan said:


> Wow, that is very impressive!


Hey Dan. So far, your demos feature heavily as can be seen in the video. I hope you don’t mind me downloading your mp3s and putting them in a Google Drive folder and re-publishing them via the above app? Same applies to @I like music and all other contributors of course! In all cases I will have a direct link to the original post here on VI (or elsewhere in case that is applicable) and clearly name the contributor. 

Are there any additional sources for demo material? GearSlutz? KVR? I haven’t checked yet and I am not a regular there.

Anyhow, this is all just for fun.

Edit: decided to kill the (dis)like option and only keep the (personal) favorite option. No need to make it competitive. I like ALL contributions as they are all done in a good spirit and to help other (future) users and fans of Aaron’s instruments.


----------



## Dan

doctoremmet said:


> I hope you don’t mind me downloading your mp3s and putting them in a Google Drive folder and re-publishing them via the above app?



Not a problem at all!


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> Hey Dan. So far, your demos feature heavily as can be seen in the video. I hope you don’t mind me downloading your mp3s and putting them in a Google Drive folder and re-publishing them via the above app? Same applies to @I like music and all other contributors of course! In all cases I will have a direct link to the original post here on VI (or elsewhere in case that is applicable) and clearly name the contributor.
> 
> Are there any additional sources for demo material? GearSlutz? KVR? I haven’t checked yet and I am not a regular there.
> 
> Anyhow, this is all just for fun.
> 
> Edit: decided to kill the (dis)like option and only keep the (personal) favorite option. No need to make it competitive. I like ALL contributions as they are all done in a good spirit and to help other (future) users and fans of Aaron’s instruments.



Not aware of many demos on other sites, but I know there are a couple older threads here with a handful of demos. Most of them were just little tests and comparisons.

Can I also just say that this looks amazing?! We've got the right man on the job!


----------



## aaronventure

doctoremmet said:


> I am on page 4 of this thread


Nice, however old IB demos (pre-April) are obsolete now


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Nice, however old IB demos (pre-April) are obsolete now



Yeah I was gonna suggest that he tags older reviews in some way to let users know. It really is incredible how much the brass has changed with 1.4.

EDIT: Even more impressive how each update brought changes that users universally agreed were real improvements. I can only imagine how hard it is to prevent some people from disliked an update that changes so much!


----------



## doctoremmet

aaronventure said:


> old IB demos (pre-April) are obsolete now


I’ll make sure to change the sorting around, first showing the latest demos. Also, I will create a home screen with some extra info for first time users / interested potential buyers. Edit: in order to make it explicitly clear that one is best served by listening to demos of the current version. Maybe even include a filter for that, I’ll see - but your point is very valid!

And I explicitly show version numbers, like this:





Depending on whether there is just IB, just IW or both on a demo, I show the logos for each instrument or that of the bundle. Once we have IS I may need to get even more creative. The app icon is now like this: 





Again Aaron, it is all for fun & to have these in one place as far as possible, so we can all refer to some of the very cool demos that are floating around without endless scrolling and searching this thread (and some older ones).


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> I’ll make sure to change the sorting around, first showing the latest demos. Also, I will create a home screen with some extra info for first time users / interested potential buyers. Edit: in order to make it explicitly clear that one is best served by listening to demos of the current version. Maybe even include a filter for that, I’ll see - but your point is very valid!
> 
> And I explicitly show version numbers, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depending on whether there is just IB, just IW or both on a demo, I show the logos for each instrument or that of the bundle. Once we have IS I may need to get even more creative. The app icon is now like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again Aaron, it is all for fun & to have these in one place as far as possible, so we can all refer to some of the very cool demos that are floating around without endless scrolling and searching this thread (and some older ones).



Dude... Wow. Just wow!


----------



## doctoremmet

aaronventure said:


> old IB demos (pre-April) are obsolete now


By the way: Brass v1.4 absolutely ROCKS! Man I am so blown away by it. Just putting it out there hehe.


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> I'm not understanding the patcher idea you set up, can you please clarify more? Specifically how is it different than just selecting multiple midi tracks to play the ensemble, or individual tracks to play solo? Between that and the CC 64 sketch mode, I don't feel like I'm having to do any copy pasting until I'm actually looking to orchestrate and perform things properly.



I didn't miss this message! I just needed to figure out how to explain it in another way that might hopefully illustrate what I was saying. It's fairly difficult to explain and I did my best in that message so finding another way to explain it is tough. 

I think the main benefit of my method is that it isn't just routing trickery that you can put in a template. Everything you need for this to work is all done inside Patcher, and you can toggle section control with one button rather than rearming several different tracks for recording (which is what I think you're saying?). The interface, Kontakt instance, and Kontakt multiscript (which creates the "Ensemble button) can all be saved as a Patcher preset, allowing you to load all of this on a whim and have it working without the need for a pre-made template.

I organize my 6 French Horns by groups of 1, 2, and 3. This allows me to have divisi or a section size of every combination between 1 and 6 horns. When the ensemble button is on, all 6 horns are controlled at once. When it's off, the individual subsections of my horns (1 horn, 2 horns, and 3 horns) are available for divisi without rearming anything. Just the click of a button.

Another benefit is that, say, if I need to toggle mutes on my trumpets, I no longer have to change it on each instrument individually or painstakingly route all of those CCs to an automation clip. I can just open up the custom UI and move the mute slider or send that single control to an automation clip, and if the ensemble button is on, all instruments will be affected.

It also solves an FL-specific workflow headache related to CC messages. Instead of having to select "browse parameters" and finding each CC message for every instance of Kontakt when you're making a new pattern (not to mention having to scroll forever because Infinite libraries for some reason have their CC messages very far down), you can just open up one single UI per section, right click that control, and send it to the piano roll or an automation clip, and for the subsections, you can open up MIDI Out and right click those controls too.

When I iron out all the kinks and get this released, I may make a video explaining how everything works and how to make changes to the system to customize it for your own ensembles, as it has taken me a few days to get all of this working properly and figure out how to do it every time from scratch. The post will also come with a .zip that contains a Patcher preset for each ensemble, Patcher UI presets for the custom UI for each section, and a project file with a few short lines of music showing how everything works.

Quick note: The multiscript has one bug where sometimes notes will hang if you do something weird in FL, but it seems to happen at random. Maybe when I get this done someone can help me fix it? The script comes courtesy of one of my composer friends (I'll credit them in the message when I release this project!), and I don't wanna bug him to make any more changes to it since he did this out of the kindness of his heart.


----------



## EugenioBruno

There's a website where we challenge each other to compose, produce, mix and master something in one hour based on a theme. This time the theme was "use a japanese scale": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwato_scale

So hey, it's not that I'm bad at making mockups, it's that I was crunched for time. 
This is basically just copypasting the same ostinato with velocity 127 to a bunch of Infinite brass instances, nothing too exciting. There's also a bit of EQ, and on the master I used a transient shaper and a soft clipper pushed something like +6db in the final crescendo.

Brass is Infinite brass 1.4, the rest is spitfire orchestra


----------



## Dan

EugenioBruno said:


> There's a website where we challenge each other to compose, produce, mix and master something in one hour based on a theme. This time the theme was "use a japanese scale": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwato_scale
> 
> So hey, it's not that I'm bad at making mockups, it's that I was crunched for time.
> This is basically just copypasting the same ostinato with velocity 127 to a bunch of Infinite brass instances, nothing too exciting. There's also a bit of EQ, and on the master I used a transient shaper and a soft clipper pushed something like +6db in the final crescendo.
> 
> Brass is Infinite brass 1.4, the rest is spitfire orchestra



Nice sharp brass sounds!
Out of curiosity: What's the name of the site, if I may ask? This challenge sounds fun. 😁


----------



## Batrawi

anyone here knows how much sale applies on infinite brass during Black Friday? currently there is 20% off (which literally should be removed any second now) but the amount is still high to me as someone who doesn't make money from music... so I just wanted to know from you guys if I can wait for a better deal...?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Batrawi said:


> anyone here knows how much sale applies on infinite brass during Black Friday? currently there is 20% off (which literally should be removed any second now) but the amount is still high to me as someone who doesn't make money from music... so I just wanted to know from you guys if I can wait for a better deal...?



This is the Black Friday sale. Most likely you won't find a better deal.


----------



## doctoremmet

Batrawi said:


> wait for a better deal...?


There will likely not be a better deal. The Black Friday sale was postponed to coincide with the release of Infinite Brass 1.4. I have never seen a better deal. These instruments are among the very few that are actually worth the monetary investment imho, speaking as a fellow hobbyist. Keep in mind Aaron frequently updates the product and these are free.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

considering aaron tends to update without charging reasonably often - there is no way it would make sense for him to try to discount his libraries further.


----------



## DivingInSpace

ProfoundSilence said:


> considering aaron tends to update without charging reasonably often - there is no way it would make sense for him to try to discount his libraries further.


When i applied for the edu discount he told me that it was the absolute best deal i could get on the libraries, so i doubt that it will go below the 20%.

On that note, i decided to get Infinite Brass while i could still use my edu discount after doing some programming with Century Brass the other day. Century Brass sounds good and got some amazing legatos but the crossfading between dynamics always stood out to me (it does on a lot of libraries to be honest) and the low dynamics are bare pressent. After making a six horn multi and playing it a bit, i am totally sold. Smooth crossfading, easy to use and play (already knew this after getting the woodwinds) and so nice in the lower dynamics.


----------



## doctoremmet

DivingInSpace said:


> When i applied for the edu discount he told me that it was the absolute best deal i could get on the libraries, so i doubt that it will go below the 20%.
> 
> On that note, i decided to get Infinite Brass while i could still use my edu discount after doing some programming with Century Brass the other day. Century Brass sounds good and got some amazing legatos but the crossfading between dynamics always stood out to me (it does on a lot of libraries to be honest) and the low dynamics are bare pressent. After making a six horn multi and playing it a bit, i am totally sold. Smooth crossfading, easy to use and play (already knew this after getting the woodwinds) and so nice in the lower dynamics.


Yes I have the exact same experience with Century. 8dio stuff is pretty decent, the solo brass instruments as well. However, IB1.4 sets a new standard, doesn't it? Off-topic: do you think Century Woodwinds will ever see the light of day?


----------



## Wenlone

Hello Everyone,

I wrote a basic multiscript for controlling Infinite Brass.

I am a beginner at kontakt scripting, but this is working fine so far.

(Updated to 0.2.1)




FYI : Solo, Mute, Progressive Vibrato and Modwheel vibrato is not assigned to CC by default on infinite brass.

You can right click midi learn from IB than click button from controller.


CHANGELOG:

0.2.1
-Saving presets saves setting correctly.

0.2
-You can now change input&output CC's from options.(Doesn't effect instrument)
-Solo and Mute buttons responds to each other.
-Output channels increased from 12 to 14
-Fixed french horns doesn't responses to mixed slider.

TO INSTALL;

Simply copy the code and paste inside of script editor and hit apply.


----------



## I like music

Wenlone said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I wrote a basic multiscript for controlling Infinite Brass.
> 
> I am a beginner at kontakt scripting, but this is working fine so far.
> 
> View attachment 29929
> 
> FYI : Solo, Mute, Progressive Vibrato and Modwheel vibrato is not assigned by default on infinite brass.
> 
> You can right click midi learn from IB than click button from controller.
> 
> 
> 
> TO INSTALL;
> 
> Simply copy the code and paste inside of script editor and hit apply.


Hey! Sorry to ask this silly question, but is this basically to allow you to create ensembles etc? 

So I could create an a2, a4 etc? Assuming I'd need to load a new instance of kontakt for each ensemble I create?


----------



## DivingInSpace

doctoremmet said:


> Yes I have the exact same experience with Century. 8dio stuff is pretty decent, the solo brass instruments as well. However, IB1.4 sets a new standard, doesn't it? Off-topic: do you think Century Woodwinds will ever see the light of day?


Yeah, sadly the Infinite series makes everything else feel cumbersome to use, so i look forward to having a full orchestra just consisting Infinite! I will most likely be getting some use from Century Brass and my other libraries still though, but i doubt i'll by using anything else than the infinite libraries while writing and sketching.

Well, i am having a hard time figuring out wether 8Dio themselfs even think it will ever see the light of the day, so i have my doubts, but would love to see it happen!


----------



## Wenlone

I like music said:


> Hey! Sorry to ask this silly question, but is this basically to allow you to create ensembles etc?
> 
> So I could create an a2, a4 etc? Assuming I'd need to load a new instance of kontakt for each ensemble I create?



Yes you can create ensembles. Basically this script duplicates input midi channel data to other midi channels. You can create up to 12 player ensemble.

Also you can use this script multiple times in one instance of kontakt. But make sure to set midi channels different.

EXAMPLE :


----------



## El Buhdai

Wenlone said:


> Yes you can create ensembles. Basically this script duplicates input midi channel data to other midi channels. You can create up to 12 player ensemble.
> 
> Also you can use this script multiple times in one instance of kontakt. But make sure to set midi channels different.
> 
> EXAMPLE :



This seems similar to my system, but with the UI inside of Kontakt, with all the controls instead of my streamlined set, and more advanced on the multi-script level as opposed to doing most of this with routing. Nice! I may test it with my custom system to see if it fixes the bug with my multiscript.


----------



## x-dfo

Wenlone said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I wrote a basic multiscript for controlling Infinite Brass.
> 
> I am a beginner at kontakt scripting, but this is working fine so far.
> 
> View attachment 29929
> 
> FYI : Solo, Mute, Progressive Vibrato and Modwheel vibrato is not assigned by default on infinite brass.
> 
> You can right click midi learn from IB than click button from controller.
> 
> 
> 
> TO INSTALL;
> 
> Simply copy the code and paste inside of script editor and hit apply.


This is amazing! Can I buy you a kofi or something? This will save me hours.
My only critique is the mixed mic slider doesn't seem to work with my french horns...


----------



## Wenlone

x-dfo said:


> This is amazing! Can I buy you a kofi or something? This will save me hours.
> My only critique is the mixed mic slider doesn't seem to work with my french horns...



Thank you. I'm glad to help.

I don't know why but french horns mixed mic slider CC is different from other instruments.

I am working on 0.2 version, i fixed it. Will be available in an hour.

EDIT: 0.2 available.


----------



## x-dfo

Wenlone said:


> Thank you. I'm glad to help.
> 
> I don't know why but french horns mixed mic slider CC is different from other instruments.
> 
> I am working on 0.2 version, i fixed it. Will be available in an hour.
> 
> EDIT: 0.2 available.


Thank you again, so now how do I save my script options after I have set up all the channels etc? I tried saving as a preset but no it didn't take, nor did it want to save in the multi... I'm a little confused as I don't even know what to google for haha.


----------



## Wenlone

x-dfo said:


> Thank you again, so now how do I save my script options after I have set up all the channels etc? I tried saving as a preset but no it didn't take, nor did it want to save in the multi... I'm a little confused as I don't even know what to google for haha.



Thank you for pointing that out. I wasn't aware of that. That is a big problem. I will make a research and fix hopefully.

EDIT: fixed


----------



## aaronventure

Wenlone said:


> Thank you for pointing that out. I wasn't aware of that. That is a big problem. I will make a research and fix hopefully.


You have to make your variables persistent.


----------



## Batrawi

is there a way to reduce/remove the flutter noise from the legato transitions? 
I understand this is a natural noise but can sound too much if it occurs with each transition


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> is there a way to reduce/remove the flutter noise from the legato transitions?
> I understand this is a natural noise but can sound too much if it occurs with each transition


Specifically with horns? I believe a very low velocity value does the trick. Can share example tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## Batrawi

I like music said:


> Specifically with horns? I believe a very low velocity value does the trick. Can share example tonight or tomorrow.


horns & bones (I haven't tried the other instruments yet). low velocity is for glides so it doesn't do the trick. if you mean low dynamic then the flutter transition is still there regardless


----------



## aaronventure

Batrawi said:


> horns & bones (I haven't tried the other instruments yet). low velocity is for glides so it doesn't do the trick. if you mean low dynamic then the flutter transition is still there regardless


If you're inflecting the notes on transitions, it's not pronounced at all. Infinite being what it is actually lets you play proper tongued transitions by releasing your note just before you hit another (takes a bit of practice or you can just edit it in MIDI). Reducing Attack Range to achieve this easier is one performance option. If you're alternating between that and standard "slurred" legato along with inflections, you should be good to go!


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> If you're inflecting the notes on transitions, it's not pronounced at all. Infinite being what it is actually lets you play proper tongued transitions by releasing your note just before you hit another (takes a bit of practice or you can just edit it in MIDI). Reducing Attack Range to achieve this easier is one performance option. If you're alternating between that and standard "slurred" legato along with inflections, you should be good to go!



Oh my god, this whole time I thought the legato transition still sometimes playing if a note is really close to another one but not overlapping was a quirk with the libraries. I'm gonna try that now because the slurred legato (even with a somewhat high velocity on the notes) on a moderately fast trumpet legato part I'm writing has been bugging me. So you're saying I can do something like this to get a less slurred legato? I'm a little confused so it would be great if you could clarify.






I'm a RTFM guy, and I rewatched the demos several times, and I still didn't know this was a thing. Any other advanced tricks worth sharing?


----------



## aaronventure

Well yeah, because there are no release samples playing that would result in this kind of thing sounding fake. When you release a note, the instrument stops playing immediately. 

Just try it out. Have your notes be very close but not actually overlapping.


----------



## TGV

In the Sample Modeling Strings thread, there's a (brief) side discussion about SM Brass vs IB, and it seems IB does not have much "presence", in terms of (user) demos, walk-throughs, etc. This particular thread was cited as "too long".

I don't have the answer, but right now, IB (and IW) seem to have undeservedly low visibility. Dr. emmet's app-page-thingy look promising, but isn't here yet, and its visibility will be strongly dependent on IB/IW's. Perhaps some subtle marketing is in order, even if it's as simple as (announcing) a page to discover resources and demos.


----------



## doctoremmet

TGV said:


> Dr. emmet's app-page-thingy look promising, but isn't here yet


Working on it, but will take me at least a week or two to finish.


----------



## doctoremmet

TGV said:


> page to discover resources and demos.


Part of my “process” is a soundcloud playlist (separate from the app) with all demos.


----------



## doctoremmet

Really, the work is now mainly just gathering all the demos, downloading them, uploading them to Soundcloud and figure out ways to make stuff efficient. So as usual: time is the critical factor. And I sleep a lot, as I’ve explained before. 

Having said that; my dream (not necessarily Aaron’s of course) is a video done by Doctor Mix on his breath controller, giving IB1.4 some love. And then one week later, we hand over demoing duties to Guy Michelmore and my fellow Dutchman Tom Holkenborg aka JXL breaks his OT contracts and plugs IB as well as a great “sketching tool” 

Ok. So maybe just approach Doctor Mix and have him play Tequila on his TEC2? All aboard?

View attachment IMG_4535.MP4


----------



## doctoremmet

“Includes paid promotion”


----------



## doctoremmet

Seriously though, I think some endorsement or other by a more or less well known “pro” would help communication- and marketing wise.

Speaking for myself; @Cory Pelizzari made a video on IW that was in fact so good, I knew then and there: “look no further” and I believe I bought IW the same day. So those videos do really help sales. As do reviews by the likes of Guy Michelmore - pretty sure about that. I love that man and his excentric British AF-ness, but I also very much respect some of the more serious things he says between the jokes


----------



## doctoremmet

Come to think of it, I really need to shield myself from mr. Pelizzari. His recommendations have had a bad influence on my wallet and my marriage.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Oh my god, this whole time I thought the legato transition still sometimes playing if a note is really close to another one but not overlapping was a quirk with the libraries. I'm gonna try that now because the slurred legato (even with a somewhat high velocity on the notes) on a moderately fast trumpet legato part I'm writing has been bugging me. So you're saying I can do something like this to get a less slurred legato? I'm a little confused so it would be great if you could clarify.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a RTFM guy, and I rewatched the demos several times, and I still didn't know this was a thing. Any other advanced tricks worth sharing?





doctoremmet said:


> Come to think of it, I really need to shield myself from mr. Pelizzari. His recommendations have had a bad influence on my wallet and my marriage.


He also reviews divorce lawyers.


----------



## Erik

I like music said:


> Oh mannnn. I wish there were a way to do this in Cubase. Anyone know if it is possible?



@I like music.

Maybe this post is superfluous at the moment: there has even been offered and explained a KSP-script for the Infinite instruments hereabove (great work I think).

But also apart from Kontakt you could use in Cubase midi sends to whatever library (Synchron, VI, Sine, Sofia WW, etc.). Suppose you want to control 2 different VSL flutes at the same time, just insert an extra midi file, route it to the 2 separate flutes (Cubase allows only 4 sends as far as I know) by activating one of the four slots, it will ask you which 'destination' has to be involved.

This midi track influences expression maps, CC-controllers etc. on both flute tracks at the same time. It can quite often be a huge time saver. If you need a more detailed path on some spots, just leave the send track as it is and make your choices on the 2 flute tracks themselves there. Velocity send is of course not possible btw, it is a crucial part of the instrument tracks.

This also works e.g. with 2 or 4 horns in the common case they are splitted (high/low), VSL Dimension strings or even combination of VSL string libraries: they are organized in a parallel way often, etc. Lots of opportunities here. Even strings divisi work will be easier in some cases/with some products.

Be aware of the fact however that some midi producers want all their tracks highly customized in every detail for musical reasons. If you are in that league, you could use this midi send in the composing stage only, later on copy paste it into the desired tracks und up you go with finetuning!

Hoping that this info helps you further.


----------



## I like music

Erik said:


> @I like music.
> 
> Maybe this post is superfluously at the moment: there has even been offered and explained a KSP-script for the Infinite instruments hereabove (great work I think).
> 
> But also apart from Kontakt you could use in Cubase midi sends to whatever library (Synchron, VI, Sine, Sofia WW, etc.). Suppose you want to control 2 different VSL flutes at the same time, just insert an extra midi file, route it to the 2 separate flutes (Cubase allows only 4 sends as far as I know) by activating one of the four slots, it will ask you which 'destination' has to be involved.
> 
> This midi track influences expression maps, CC-controllers etc. on both flute tracks at the same time. It can quite often be a huge time saver. If you need a more detailed path on some spots, just leave the send track as it is and make your choices on the 2 flute tracks themselves there. Velocity send is of course not possible btw, it is a crucial part of the instrument tracks.
> 
> This also works e.g. with 2 or 4 horns in the common case they are splitted (high/low), VSL Dimension strings or even combination of VSL string libraries: they are organized in a parallel way often, etc. Lots of opportunities here. Even strings divisi work will be easier in some cases/with some products.
> 
> Be aware of the fact however that some midi producers want all their tracks highly customized in every detail for musical reasons. If you are in that league, you could use this midi send in the composing stage only, later on copy paste it into the desired tracks und up you go with finetuning!
> 
> Hoping that this info helps you further.



This is extremely helpful, yep! Thank you, as I wasn't aware that this was also a method for achieving something similar. I shall try this (and also the KSP) whenever I have time to hop back onto the machine


----------



## Batrawi

I'm so far very happy with IB. For my taste, I would even consider it superior than something like SMB in terms of playability/sound ratio (so I still don't get why people are often referring to it as a "sketching tool" as if it's not qualified to make its way into a final production like any other convincing library)....

Anyhow, that being said, I can't wait to see what Infinite Strings will bring. I must admit that I'm a bit worried though cause strings are really tricky to get right whith this sampling approach. Cause, to my understanding, it has to be recorded non-vibrato first (which sounds static), then have a modelled vibrato applied post the fact (which sounds ugly)... a serious dilemma! not to mention how ugly a scripted string legato can also sound like. I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I really hope this one won't turn out as another "sketching tool" like it turned out with other libraries that were recorded with similar approach. I still have some faith in Aaron though, as (from what I experienced with IB), this guy has come up with his very own special voodoo that I haven't seen in other libraries before...!


----------



## RogiervG

doctoremmet said:


> it involves a (mobile phone only) progressive web app (Android | IOS) that allows you to access all these sources from the couch




Not to trash your work, or your idea.. but....
why would you do a mobile phones only WPA (how would that even work with WPA, only mobile? wpa's are not limited to mobile by nature?)
It's a PC/MAC thing the libraries. The audio setup people use to validate the quality of a library is for most times on a good audio setup, thus not mobile.
I would make a normal website, that can be visited on their main machines or otherwise setups. 
So skip the WPA part, Less hassle with service workers etc... Responsive design and done


----------



## doctoremmet

RogiervG said:


> why would you do a mobile phones only WPA


All very smart and relevant remarks. You clearly know a lot about WPA’s. Let me clear that up for you: I’m using a no code template (for free) that only renders phone apps.


----------



## doctoremmet

RogiervG said:


> I would make a normal website, that can be visited on their main machines or otherwise setups.
> So skip the WPA part, Less hassle with service workers etc... Responsive design and done


Go right ahead mate. I say: do it.


----------



## RogiervG

Not sure if you are upset of offended or neither of that... Cannot make it up from the two posts.
But to clarify: as i said, it was not the intent to trash your idea or work in any way.
I didn't know you used a no code template. I thought you made it from scratch.

I do like the idea though, and so far it looks good too. Was just wondering about the mobile aspect of it.


----------



## doctoremmet

RogiervG said:


> Not sure if you are upset of offended or neither of that... Cannot make it up from the two posts.
> But to clarify: as i said, it was not the intent to trash your idea or work in any way.
> I didn't know you used a no code template. I thought you made it from scratch.
> 
> I do like the idea though, and so far it looks good too. Was just wondering about the mobile aspect of it.


No worries 😎. Using Glide apps. You have some valid points, and I'm considering some of them


----------



## El Buhdai

Batrawi said:


> I'm so far very happy with IB. For my taste, I would even consider it superior than something like SMB in terms of playability/sound ratio (so I still don't get why people are often referring to it as a "sketching tool" as if it's not qualified to make its way into a final production like any other convincing library)....
> 
> Anyhow, that being said, I can't wait to see what Infinite Strings will bring. I must admit that I'm a bit worried though cause strings are really tricky to get right whith this sampling approach. Cause, to my understanding, it has to be recorded non-vibrato first (which sounds static), then have a modelled vibrato applied post the fact (which sounds ugly)... a serious dilemma! not to mention how ugly a scripted string legato can also sound like. I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I really hope this one won't turn out as another "sketching tool" like it turned out with other libraries that were recorded with similar approach. I still have some faith in Aaron though, as (from what I experienced with IB), this guy has come up with his very own special voodoo that I haven't seen in other libraries before...!



I have my concerns about Infinite Strings as well. I've voiced that many times on this thread. However, after 1.4, poor vibrato is no longer one of them. The trumpets in 1.4 have excellent vibrato because they do something that other scripted vibrato algorithms don't seem to do. It's just a guess based on my ear, but other scripted vibrato algorithms seem to simply modulate the pitch of the output, but Infinite Brass' vibrato seems to modulate only certain aspects of the sound. So instead of the whole tone of the instrument wavering, only specific aspects of the sound moves while the rest remains the same. I know Aaron has said somewhere in this thread that you're almost always hearing multiple dynamic layers at once when you play an Infinite instrument. Perhaps he just modulates the "primary" layer, or the layer you're closest to? Either way, like you said, this dude is a magician and while I'm concerned about other aspects of Infinite Strings, I'm confident the vibrato will be at least usable.


----------



## Batrawi

El Buhdai said:


> after 1.4, poor vibrato is no longer one of them. The trumpets in 1.4 have excellent vibrato


well it's still a concern to me. I mean it sounds ok but definitely far from excellent. IMO the vibrato still needs at least couple of extra controls to sound better:
*1. Fade-in time (ms) control: *cause nothing sounds more unrealistic and annoying than an vibrato kicking in as soon as you play any note or any legato transition. some milliseconds (and they make a huge difference) are required before a note starts vibrating
*2. Vibrato randomness: *as another parameter over the vibrato rate to make it sound imperfect/less uniform which is more natural

I really hope Aaron adds these parameters in all Infinite Instruments cause I think these are essential to "break" the static nature of modelled vibrato


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I personally have few fears about Infinite Strings, Aaron has clearly shown he is very capable. Going by Aaron's previous track record he will also work on it till it's the best it can be, so even if it isn't perfect from the start it won't be abandoned.

There's been some alright fake vibrato - Joshua Bell comes to mind - and depending on what route he takes with creating the instruments he could very well do what El Buhdai said, and separate the different elements of the sound and modulating them when needed for something like vibrato. But that will also add more layers playing at the same and already having 16 individual patches to play x 4 dynamic layers playing at the same time is already 64 voices for only a single note on a full violin ensemble. So splitting the sound up into more parts would add to that number. But I have no doubt Aaron will find the most suitable way and still keeping it efficient.

The biggest problem is vibrato in ensembles. You can't just script a vibrato over a recorded ensemble because that's not how an ensemble plays vibrato. It would sound very fake. But since he's planning on recording each player separately that problem completely disappears.



El Buhdai said:


> I have my concerns about Infinite Strings as well. I've voiced that many times on this thread. However, after 1.4, poor vibrato is no longer one of them. The trumpets in 1.4 have excellent vibrato because they do something that other scripted vibrato algorithms don't seem to do. It's just a guess based on my ear, but other scripted vibrato algorithms seem to simply modulate the pitch of the output, but Infinite Brass' vibrato seems to modulate only certain aspects of the sound. So instead of the whole tone of the instrument wavering, only specific aspects of the sound moves while the rest remains the same. I know Aaron has said somewhere in this thread that you're almost always hearing multiple dynamic layers at once when you play an Infinite instrument. Perhaps he just modulates the "primary" layer, or the layer you're closest to? Either way, like you said, this dude is a magician and while I'm concerned about other aspects of Infinite Strings, I'm confident the vibrato will be at least usable.



What other concerns do you have about the instruments? There's so much filler in this thread that I don't have the energy to go looking for it. Could you give a short list of what concerns you have? I haven't thought too much about it myself since development is in more capable hands than my own.



Batrawi said:


> well it's still a concern to me. I mean it sounds ok but definitely far from excellent. IMO the vibrato still needs at least couple of extra controls to sound better:
> *1. Fade-in time (ms) control: *cause nothing sounds more unrealistic and annoying than an vibrato kicking in as soon as you play any note or any legato transition. some milliseconds (and they make a huge difference) are required before a note starts vibrating
> *2. Vibrato randomness: *as another parameter over the vibrato rate to make it sound imperfect/less uniform which is more natural
> 
> I really hope Aaron adds these parameters in all Infinite Instruments cause I think these are essential to "break" the static nature of modelled vibrato



Don't you program this in? Isn't that the whole point that you can control the vibrato exactly as you want? Though, giving the option to have the engine do more of the work is always a nice addition for when you are live playing.

And you don't think the automatic ramp-in options and the non-linear vibrato available now is enough, or at least to controllable enough?


----------



## Batrawi

Jonathan Moray said:


> Don't you program this in? Isn't that the whole point that you can control the vibrato exactly as you want? Though, giving the option to have the engine do more of the work is always a nice addition for when you are live playing.
> 
> And you don't think the automatic ramp-in options and the non-linear vibrato available now is enough, or at least to controllable enough?



Well, I can program this all in, but only if the purpose of the library is to be a solo instrument! This is not the case with Infinite instruments that are also designed for modular ensemble building... now tell me how I can randomize these manually for each and every instrument in the ensemble while playing live?! I think this is a good example of a "nice (or shall I say essential) addition" to have - no?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Batrawi said:


> Well, I can program this all in, but only if the purpose of the library is to be a solo instrument! This is not the case with Infinite instruments that are also designed for modular ensemble building... now tell me how I can randomize these manually for each and every instrument in the ensemble while playing live?! I think this is a good example of a "nice (or shall I say essential) addition" to have - no?



I guess you don't play each instrument separately than? But instead, play them all at the same time? Playing them separately would add a lot of variabilities, but also take a _long _time for larger ensembles.

Depending on what DAW you're using you can definitely add that variability automatically after recording. Sure, I would also say it's essential for ensemble work to have some randomization, going back and having to record different midi for each instrument would be tedious.

But you didn't answer the other statements. Doesn't the humanize feature, ramp-in vibrato, and non-linear vibrato do this already? Or am I missing something?


----------



## Batrawi

Jonathan Moray said:


> But you didn't answer the other statements. Doesn't the humanize feature, ramp-in vibrato, and non-linear vibrato do this already? Or am I missing something?


it affects the note timing and velocity, but not directly the vibrato parameters...I may be wrong but that's what I understood from the walkthrough (Ensemble part) and as far as my ears can tell


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Batrawi said:


> it affects the note timing and velocity, but not directly the vibrato parameters...I may be wrong but that's what I understood from the walkthrough (Ensemble part) and as far as my ears can tell




Yes, the humanize dose that. But I'm almost positive, or I might have misinterpreted it, that the vibrato is already semi-random and not perfectly linear. The walkthrough for 1.3 is private so can't check that and can't find it in the 1.4 walkthrough.

Edit:

I found it in the Woodwinds walkthrough.


----------



## I like music

I was sure there was randomisation in the vibrato. @Batrawi are you asking for some sort of vibrato delay setting (e.g. like the one that exists in SM strings) where you can define how many ms after note start the vibrato ramps in?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> I was sure there was randomisation in the vibrato. @Batrawi are you asking for some sort of vibrato delay setting (e.g. like the one that exists in SM strings) where you can define how many ms after note start the vibrato ramps in?



I guess that's what he's asking about since the features themselves already exist but they are not user-definable. I would be all about an "advanced" page of the engine where you can define variables for these kinds of things, but just as an extra for those who want it. Then have the defaults as they are so that for those that don't want to delve don't have to. I would definitely use it even if I like to mostly like to sculpt every part of the performance myself, it could be helpful in certain situations.


----------



## Batrawi

I like music said:


> I was sure there was randomisation in the vibrato. @Batrawi are you asking for some sort of vibrato delay setting (e.g. like the one that exists in SM strings) where you can define how many ms after note start the vibrato ramps in?


yes exactly!
for the vibrato randomness, @Jonathan Moray thankfully clarified that vibrato is already non-linear by default which I didn't know about..good to know, so it's only my 1st point then that I'm concerned about


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> yes exactly!
> for the vibrato randomness, @Jonathan Moray thankfully clarified that vibrato is already non-linear by default which I didn't know about..good to know, so it's only my 1st point then that I'm concerned about



Understood. And I see what you mean.

Right now I'm trying to work out a flow that works well for me. The main thing being that when I get the dynamics totally wrong on Horns 1, it usually means I've got them wrong on all the horns. This means that for each tweak and edit, I need to edit every single horn again.

I don't mind this since it creates a better performance in the end. I'm just wondering if I can mass-edit CCs with a mouse and keyboard or not. Seems Cubase doesn't allow me to act on ccs from 6 different midi tracks at once (using mouse and keyboard).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Understood. And I see what you mean.
> 
> Right now I'm trying to work out a flow that works well for me. The main thing being that when I get the dynamics totally wrong on Horns 1, it usually means I've got them wrong on all the horns. This means that for each tweak and edit, I need to edit every single horn again.
> 
> I don't mind this since it creates a better performance in the end. I'm just wondering if I can mass-edit CCs with a mouse and keyboard or not. Seems Cubase doesn't allow me to act on ccs from 6 different midi tracks at once (using mouse and keyboard).



Cubase does allow that with a feature that not a lot of people know about: carbon copy tracks / shared event track... or whatever they are actually called. Either way, if you hold alt and drag an event then before you release the event you also hold shift you will create a linked/shared copy of that event. Everything will be exactly the same between the two copies. Change midi cc in one event? It changes in the other. Change notes? It changes in the other. They are _*exactly *_the same.

This will be interacted by a small parallel line on the event. The event will also share the exact same name.

Like this:






A very handy feature to have sometimes.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Cubase does allow that with a feature that not a lot of people know about: carbon copy tracks / shared event track... or whatever they are actually called. Either way, if you hold alt and drag an event then before you release the event you also hold shift you will create a linked/shared copy of that event. Everything will be exactly the same between the two copies. Change midi cc in one event? It changes in the other. Change notes? It changes in the other. They are _*exactly *_the same.
> 
> This will be interacted by a small parallel line on the event. The event will also share the exact same name.
> 
> Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A very handy feature to have sometimes.



FUCK! That's beautiful! Thanks man. Amazing!!!

Does this mean that once they are linked, they are linked until I unlink them?

This is just what I needed.


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## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> FUCK! That's beautiful! Thanks man. Amazing!!!
> 
> Does this mean that once they are linked, they are linked until I unlink them?
> 
> This is just what I needed.



Yes. You can make as many linked copies as you want on different tracks or the same track. If you make a linked copy of an already linked copy they will all be linked. And when you feel like you don't want one or multiple of the events to be linked anymore you select and shift right-click the event(s) you want to unlink, go down to the functions tab and click "convert to real copy" now it is its own copy. If you have more than two linked events and only unlink one of the events the others will still be linked to each other.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes. You can make as many linked copies as you want on different tracks or the same track. If you make a linked copy of an already linked copy they will all be linked. And when you feel like you don't want one or multiple of the events to be linked anymore you select and shift right-click the event(s) you want to unlink, go down to the functions tab and click "convert to real copy" now it is its own copy. If you have more than two linked events and only unlink one of the events the others will still be linked to each other.



I'm mocking up ET's Adventures on Earth (also using it to balance my template). You have saved me days and days worth of messing around. Thanks!


----------



## aaronventure

Batrawi said:


> yes exactly!
> for the vibrato randomness, @Jonathan Moray thankfully clarified that vibrato is already non-linear by default which I didn't know about..good to know, so it's only my 1st point then that I'm concerned about


It's non-linear by default, yes. The amplitude is always changing a bit, and if you took two instruments and used the same Depth and Rate, they would never play in perfect sync. An oscillation now and then would overlap but it would really sound like they're _trying _to sync up.

As for adding too many vibrato controls, I don't think that's a good choice. If I go that way, it's never gonna be enough. And now you're spending time tweaking parameters again instead of playing. It really doesn't take long to do a pass over your entire clip with just CC/21 vibrato and manually dip it how much you need on each note. 

You can also use Kontakt's default Transformer multiscript to transform Aftertouch into CC21, and then Vibrato only happens on aftertouch, after you've already played a note. Try that and see if it works for you. My keyboard's got shitty aftertouch but otherwise it's a legit performance setup.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> It's non-linear by default, yes. The amplitude is always changing a bit, and if you took two instruments and used the same Depth and Rate, they would never play in perfect sync. An oscillation now and then would overlap but it would really sound like they're _trying _to sync up.
> 
> As for adding too many vibrato controls, I don't think that's a good choice. If I go that way, it's never gonna be enough. And now you're spending time tweaking parameters again instead of playing. It really doesn't take long to do a pass over your entire clip with just CC/21 vibrato and manually dip it how much you need on each note.
> 
> You can also use Kontakt's default Transformer multiscript to transform Aftertouch into CC21, and then Vibrato only happens on aftertouch, after you've already played a note. Try that and see if it works for you. My keyboard's got shitty aftertouch but otherwise it's a legit performance setup.



That's all well and good but when are you releasing the ethnic strings?


----------



## Batrawi

aaronventure said:


> It really doesn't take long to do a pass over your entire clip with just CC/21 vibrato and manually dip it how much you need on each note.


but that exactly is "taking time tweaking instead of playing"  that's why I thought it's actually essential to have such control. Besides, this is how real performance sounds like afterall in most cases right? I mean taking a violin as an example (I'm no violinist but anyone who is here, please correct me if I'm wrong) a player wouldn't naturally vibrate immediately on-the-start of a note or a legato transition except maybe if he's instructed to do so for more rare aggressive passages (playing Czardas style for ex.)...otherwise, it's just a second nature that it would take some split seconds for a player to vibrate in real world..so I want you to please take my words in the sense that it's a natural phenomena that is worth virtually emulating to improve the realism of our virtual instrument, rather than being just another luxurious control that may open the door for never-ending requests for other not so useful features. Anyhow, that's just my 2c that you have the complete freedom to take it or put at the bottom of your priorities. I thought it's something worth putting on the table at least.

I did not know about Kontakt's default Transformer multiscript (cause I'm a tech dummy) but will give this one a try. thx for the suggestion


----------



## x-dfo

aaronventure said:


> It's non-linear by default, yes. The amplitude is always changing a bit, and if you took two instruments and used the same Depth and Rate, they would never play in perfect sync. An oscillation now and then would overlap but it would really sound like they're _trying _to sync up.
> 
> As for adding too many vibrato controls, I don't think that's a good choice. If I go that way, it's never gonna be enough. And now you're spending time tweaking parameters again instead of playing. It really doesn't take long to do a pass over your entire clip with just CC/21 vibrato and manually dip it how much you need on each note.
> 
> You can also use Kontakt's default Transformer multiscript to transform Aftertouch into CC21, and then Vibrato only happens on aftertouch, after you've already played a note. Try that and see if it works for you. My keyboard's got shitty aftertouch but otherwise it's a legit performance setup.


I don't like futzing with SM's string vibrato controls tbh, it's just more cc drawing in the end, there's no way to get a good 'one value fits all' vibrato delay. SM's mapping vibrato to mod wheel is also a little bit mysterious.


----------



## aaronventure

Batrawi said:


> but that exactly is "taking time tweaking instead of playing"


Is it really? You're reacting in real time to your unique line and giving it exactly the amount of vibrato it needs in each moment, instead of fiddling about finding the optimal one-for-all setting. And it can only take as long as the length of the part. 

You can also go into the MIDI editor and just draw the curve once you get a feel for how vibrato feels like and what amount you usually go for, that only takes a second and you get a 100% tailored response instead of letting the script do it.



Batrawi said:


> Anyhow, that's just my 2c that you have the complete freedom to take it or put at the bottom of your priorities. I thought it's something worth putting on the table at least.


No worries, I'm always more than open for suggestions. Keep them coming. This is just one of the many, many things I've tried over the last 18 months and it was more bloat than useful, because you can always do what you need right from the MIDI editor or just punch it in.



Batrawi said:


> I did not know about Kontakt's default Transformer multiscript (cause I'm a tech dummy) but will give this one a try. thx for the suggestion


Yep, top right corner KSP > Presets > Factory > Transform > Transformer. Transform Mono AT to CC21. It will work for all instruments in that instance.


----------



## El Buhdai

Batrawi said:


> well it's still a concern to me. I mean it sounds ok but definitely far from excellent. IMO the vibrato still needs at least couple of extra controls to sound better:
> *1. Fade-in time (ms) control: *cause nothing sounds more unrealistic and annoying than an vibrato kicking in as soon as you play any note or any legato transition. some milliseconds (and they make a huge difference) are required before a note starts vibrating
> *2. Vibrato randomness: *as another parameter over the vibrato rate to make it sound imperfect/less uniform which is more natural
> 
> I really hope Aaron adds these parameters in all Infinite Instruments cause I think these are essential to "break" the static nature of modelled vibrato



Number 1 already exists kind of. There's a fade-in toggle, but you can't really choose the time with a control on the UI.

Number 2 already exists but it's subtle.

I don't think these are necessary features that need to be added because you can already do both of these things with CC on your own. IB (see: trombones), and especially IW, sound static if you don't form the phrases yourself with CC. That is both the main appeal and drawback of the libraries depending on who you ask, and the level of experience of the composer using the libraries.

In fact that's the main problem with IW right now compared to IB. There doesn't seem to be nearly as many changes to a sustained note as there are in IB 1.4, so the instruments sound almost frozen in time without moving the mod wheel at all.



Jonathan Moray said:


> I personally have few fears about Infinite Strings, Aaron has clearly shown he is very capable. Going by Aaron's previous track record he will also work on it till it's the best it can be, so even if it isn't perfect from the start it won't be abandoned.
> 
> There's been some alright fake vibrato - Joshua Bell comes to mind - and depending on what route he takes with creating the instruments he could very well do what El Buhdai said, and separate the different elements of the sound and modulating them when needed for something like vibrato. But that will also add more layers playing at the same and already having 16 individual patches to play x 4 dynamic layers playing at the same time is already 64 voices for only a single note on a full violin ensemble. So splitting the sound up into more parts would add to that number. But I have no doubt Aaron will find the most suitable way and still keeping it efficient.
> 
> What other concerns do you have about the instruments? There's so much filler in this thread that I don't have the energy to go looking for it. Could you give a short list of what concerns you have? I haven't thought too much about it myself since development is in more capable hands than my own.



Well if you pop the hood while playing a note, Infinite Brass and Winds already plays multiple layers at once when you play a note. but since the samples are phase-aligned it sounds like one voice. You can observe this in the "Group Editor" which lead to my hypothesis about the vibrato only modulating the dynamic layer you're closest to.

As for my concerns, I've never really gotten specific in the thread. It boils down to this:

1. I have no idea how vibrato will work for the recorded ensemble patches. As you said here, doing vibrato on the whole section just wouldn't work.

2. With all of the extended playing techniques that string sections are capable of, I'm worried about how we'll be able to do the ones that can't be performed like tremolos, pizzicatos, and so on without keyswitches.

3. Finally, the biggest one is that I currently use two traditional libraries to balance Infinite Brass and winds. I find that if you use the two alone, they combine in a very strange way and sound somewhat artificial, so I rely on a traditional strings and percussion library next to Infinite Brass and Woodwinds to provide the illusion of a more barebones sound. I fear that once the Infinite Orchestra is complete, it may be hard to get them to have the combined tone of a real, or even a more traditionally sampled orchestra. At least with the libraries as they are now. If IW gets a realism boost on par with IB, and Infinite Brass gets maybe one more tone touch-up for finishing touches, Infinite Orchestra might sound fine, but I'd add the Sony Room Tone and maybe some white noise to emulate a recorded sound to keep the illusion of the ensemble being grounded in reality.


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> It's non-linear by default, yes. The amplitude is always changing a bit, and if you took two instruments and used the same Depth and Rate, they would never play in perfect sync. An oscillation now and then would overlap but it would really sound like they're _trying _to sync up.
> 
> As for adding too many vibrato controls, I don't think that's a good choice. If I go that way, it's never gonna be enough. And now you're spending time tweaking parameters again instead of playing. It really doesn't take long to do a pass over your entire clip with just CC/21 vibrato and manually dip it how much you need on each note.



Right, I don't think this control would accomplish what Batrawi wants it to accomplish. It's far more preferable to just draw in the vibrato curve you need. You get the vibrato delay you want, and just as importantly, you get the vibrato you want on release. I tend to ramp down the vibrato towards the end of a note because it sounds just as jarring to keep it where it was at its peak. The result is a fairly natural-sounding vibrato that never really stays in one place. You could do even more by modulating the Vibrato Rate control at the same time and ramping that up as a note continues, but I like everyone else would rather try to do as much with as few controls as possible. Fortunately that's pretty easy with this library. Here's an example of what I mean:






I have much better examples, but I just don't happen to have any high-vibrato trumpet lines in the project I currently have open. This line uses vibrato very sparsely, mostly as an embellishment. I suspect @Batrawi might be moving it up to one set value for a phrase before moving it back down at the end of that phrase, and I think that might be the source of your anguish with the vibrato for this library. Without drawing some movement you can definitely have the problems with the vibrato that you outlined.


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> recorded ensemble patches


There will be ensemble patches, but they'll consist of individual instruments. How else would you be able to do divisi? 



El Buhdai said:


> With all of the extended playing techniques that string sections are capable of, I'm worried about how we'll be able to do the ones that can't be performed like tremolos, pizzicatos, and so on without keyswitches


Well, obviously you'll have to keyswitch for these. I'll map them to sostenuto and soft pedals by default so anyone with these should have very easy access. Currently the modes are Arco, Pizz and Col Legno. Pizz and CL are yet to be implemented. Perhaps Pizz and Col Legno can be in a single mode, with CC1 letting you switch between them. I'm still experimenting.

Tremolo is at the moment a switch on its own (now we're having too many switches), but it's easy to assign it to CC21 and set the limit to 50%, and then it only triggers when vibrato is pushed all the way up. I'm still experimenting with that as well. 



El Buhdai said:


> I find that if you use the two alone, they combine in a very strange way and sound somewhat artificial,


Well yeah, there's currently a pretty big sound quality gap between them. It'll all be seamless once the new spaces are implemented in the next WW update.


----------



## x-dfo

aaronventure said:


> There will be ensemble patches, but they'll consist of individual instruments. How else would you be able to do divisi?
> 
> 
> Well, obviously you'll have to keyswitch for these. I'll map them to sostenuto and soft pedals by default so anyone with these should have very easy access. Currently the modes are Arco, Pizz and Col Legno. Pizz and CL are yet to be implemented. Perhaps Pizz and Col Legno can be in a single mode, with CC1 letting you switch between them. I'm still experimenting.
> 
> Tremolo is at the moment a switch on its own (now we're having too many switches), but it's easy to assign it to CC21 and set the limit to 50%, and then it only triggers when vibrato is pushed all the way up. I'm still experimenting with that as well.
> 
> 
> Well yeah, there's currently a pretty big sound quality gap between them. It'll all be seamless once the new spaces are implemented in the next WW update.



I'm always a little sad to see keyswitching but the memory/cpu footprint is so small I'll be able to stack the articulations no problem in diff tracks.


----------



## Batrawi

El Buhdai said:


> Right, I don't think this control would accomplish what Batrawi wants it to accomplish. It's far more preferable to just draw in the vibrato curve you need. You get the vibrato delay you want, and just as importantly, you get the vibrato you want on release. I tend to ramp down the vibrato towards the end of a note because it sounds just as jarring to keep it where it was at its peak. The result is a fairly natural-sounding vibrato that never really stays in one place. You could do even more by modulating the Vibrato Rate control at the same time and ramping that up as a note continues, but I like everyone else would rather try to do as much with as few controls as possible. Fortunately that's pretty easy with this library. Here's an example of what I mean:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have much better examples, but I just don't happen to have any high-vibrato trumpet lines in the project I currently have open. This line uses vibrato very sparsely, mostly as an embellishment. I suspect @Batrawi might be moving it up to one set value for a phrase before moving it back down at the end of that phrase, and I think that might be the source of your anguish with the vibrato for this library. Without fine-tuning it you can definitely have the problems with the vibrato that you outlined.


thanks @El Buhdai for sharing these tips, but rest assured that I do already have a fair understanding of the physics of the instrument and the corresponding midi curves I should use as you suggested... but my point is THAT IS the problem, if you have to draw these with slight differences for each instrument say in an enesemble of 12 violins! that's why I thought an automated soultion, or a control where I can pre define the fade-in time for each instrument must be handy or at least should solve part of the problem. that's simply it or.....probably I'm a very lazy person and haven't discovered this until I knew you guys are ok with handling such amount of midi editing


----------



## El Buhdai

Batrawi said:


> thanks @El Buhdai for sharing these tips, but rest assured that I do already have a fair understanding of the physics of the instrument and the corresponding midi curves I should use as you suggested... but my point is THAT IS the problem, if you have to draw these with slight differences for each instrument say in an enesemble of 12 violins! that's why I thought an automated soultion, or a control where I can pre define the fade-in time for each instrument must be handy or at least should solve part of the problem. that's simply it or.....probably I'm a very lazy person and haven't discovered this until I knew you guys are ok with handling such amount of midi editing



I think you've misunderstood my position. When it comes to string ensembles, I'm with you. I have no desire to tune the vibrato of every instrument, haha!

In fact I've been testing a method that lets me dynamically control all instruments at once. It's a few pages back in the thread.

I wouldn't say I'm fine with a huge amount of midi editing, I'd just say I don't mind what we have to do with Infinite because CC is better than keyswitches for me every day of the week. I use FL and I hate that there seems to be no way to mark or color keys in the piano roll, and often the octaves don't match up, so programming keyswitches is a bunch of guesswork for me. Open the instrument, find the note, find the octave, etc. It gets tedious. It's even more annoying when you consider that the default order of the keyswitches for most libraries seems to follow no discernable pattern (ex: shorts, then longs, then effects) and memorizing the locations for all keyswitches in your orchestra takes tons of time. So with all the time I save by not having to do that with my entire brass and woodwinds sections, I don't mind taking a few seconds to lovingly craft the vibrato curves for lines that need it.

I'm pretty sure his string sections will make extensive use of a far more noticeable version of the humanization functionality we got with 1.4 to really help the strings blend together into a section, especially when playing vibrato.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I think you've misunderstood my position. When it comes to string ensembles, I'm with you. I have no desire to tune the vibrato of every instrument, haha!
> 
> In fact I've been testing a method that lets me dynamically control all instruments at once. It's a few pages back in the thread.
> 
> I wouldn't say I'm fine with a huge amount of midi editing, I'd just say I don't mind what we have to do with Infinite because CC is better than keyswitches for me every day of the week. I use FL and I hate that there seems to be no way to mark or color keys in the piano roll, and often the octaves don't match up, so programming keyswitches is a bunch of guesswork for me. Open the instrument, find the note, find the octave, etc. It gets tedious. It's even more annoying when you consider that the default order of the keyswitches for most libraries seems to follow no discernable pattern (ex: shorts, then longs, then effects) and memorizing the locations for all keyswitches in your orchestra takes tons of time. So with all the time I save by not having to do that with my entire brass and woodwinds sections, I don't mind taking a few seconds to lovingly craft the vibrato curves for lines that need it.
> 
> I'm pretty sure his string sections will make extensive use of a far more noticeable version of the humanization functionality we got with 1.4 to really help the strings blend together into a section, especially when playing vibrato.



Luckily in Reaper you can name the notes and map them to every track independently.



aaronventure said:


> Well, obviously you'll have to keyswitch for these. I'll map them to sostenuto and soft pedals by default so anyone with these should have very easy access. Currently the modes are Arco, Pizz and Col Legno. Pizz and CL are yet to be implemented. Perhaps Pizz and Col Legno can be in a single mode, with CC1 letting you switch between them. I'm still experimenting.
> 
> Tremolo is at the moment a switch on its own (now we're having too many switches), but it's easy to assign it to CC21 and set the limit to 50%, and then it only triggers when vibrato is pushed all the way up. I'm still experimenting with that as well.



So at the end even you will be forced to use KS. Well I cannot see other ways to go, using CCs to trigger a pizzicato would make no sense.

About the tremolo you are thinking about an ON/OFF solution aswell if I understand correctly even if you are trying to use a CC to trigger it. I was hoping for a blending solution (something similar to the Chris Hein approach) but maybe it doesn't work well, I don't know.


----------



## I like music

Super curious to know how you'd approach finger tremolos, with sections quickly alternating 4ths or 5ths. Because as I understand it, a section falls out of sync super quickly and you get that lovely shimmering effect. Tried doing it with SM strings but each transition stays together so hard to get the effect right.


----------



## Batrawi

DANIELE said:


> So at the end even you will be forced to use KS. Well I cannot see other ways to go, using CCs to trigger a pizzicato would make no sense.


well, if a string section can already play all kind of shorts, longs, legato, portamento, with all different dynamics, attacks variations etc...all in a single patch just like IB and IW, then this already goes a very long way, I would say more than 90% of what one would usually need from a strings section in most compositional situations! That said, I would look at all other articulations (piz, trem, col leg etc...) as embellishments where the strings are rather acting like any another/different instrument in the orchestra, which, luckily you will have access to via keyswitch 

So using keyswitch in the infinite series case is not a limitation, it actually means that the one-patch-instrument was used to its full potential


----------



## x-dfo

I like music said:


> Super curious to know how you'd approach finger tremolos, with sections quickly alternating 4ths or 5ths. Because as I understand it, a section falls out of sync super quickly and you get that lovely shimmering effect. Tried doing it with SM strings but each transition stays together so hard to get the effect right.


yep I found the same thing, better to do it manually with a few solo instruments layered in


----------



## DANIELE

Batrawi said:


> well, if a string section can already play all kind of shorts, longs, legato, portamento, with all different dynamics, attacks variations etc...all in a single patch just like IB and IW, then this already goes a very long way, I would say more than 90% of what one would usually need from a strings section in most compositional situations! That said, I would look at all other articulations (piz, trem, col leg etc...) as embellishments where the strings are rather acting like any another/different instrument in the orchestra, which, luckily you will have access to via keyswitch
> 
> So using keyswitch in the infinite series case is not a limitation, it actually means that the one-patch-instrument was used to its full potential



Don't misunderstand me, I'm totally fine with that. I was only joking (sort of) because the absence of ks is one of the points of infinite series. But with strings it is a different thing. I agree with you.

I'm totally happy to have this technology at my disposal.


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## I like music

x-dfo said:


> yep I found the same thing, better to do it manually with a few solo instruments layered in



Ah, of course. Yeah, a few solo instruments on top is a good idea! Hadn't thought of that in this context.


----------



## pierrevigneron

sincerely if Aaron provides us with strings allowing us to play "simply" short notes and long notes with divisi and legato with the flexibility of IB and a beautiful tone I will already be satisfied. I think we already all have bookstores offering harmonics, col legno, tremolo, pizzicato etc ... But in fact I don't know if Aaron has already said what he planned as different articulations. I thought that speaking of divisi, Aaron was going to make sets of 1,2,4,8,8 for example (which made it possible to make any number of combination going from 1 to 23 (8 + 8 + 4 + 2 + 1) but it seems that he opted for as many instruments as musicians? So an orchestra of about 40 to 60 strings ???


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

I did end up buying both Brass and WW a couple of days ago and I'm loving them so far! I noticed the timing sometimes needs a little massaging compared to my Samplemodeling Trumpet/Trombone (particularly on portamento), but I'm slowly getting used to the libraries & the best way to play & control them.
Can't wait for the woodwind update too - overtone/blow-strength control would be fab with super-realistic timbres.


----------



## Batrawi

pierrevigneron said:


> but it seems that he opted for as many instruments as musicians? So an orchestra of about 40 to 60 strings ???


I wish he'd take this route. but don't forget he's using the transposition trick and already have it built-in within the infinite series...so for each 5 instruments he may actually need to record only 1 (which can then be transpose +1,+2,-1,-2). But for someone like myself who can't get enough of strings, I'd wish to have every single instrument (of the 40-60 pieces of the orchestea or whatever what that number might be) recorded individually, then to have the freedom to combine them as I want and to create my own divisi's & ensembles.... crazy, but maybe that's just me


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> I wish he'd take this route. but don't forget he's using the transposition trick and already have it built-in within the infinite series...so for each 5 instruments he may actually need to record only 1 (which can then be transpose +1,+2,-1,-2). But for someone like myself who can't get enough of strings, I'd wish to have every single instrument (of the 40-60 pieces of the orchestea or whatever what that number might be) recorded individually, then to have the freedom to combine them as I want and to create my own divisi's & ensembles.... crazy, but maybe that's just me



The man went to the lengths of sampling the horn six times, and every single other instrument individually for brass/winds. It gives me hope for him sampling each string player individually, but I imagine that even in the craziest universe, that is simply an impossible task. So I'm curious to know how he approaches it. 

I expcet like Pierre said, sampling smaller sections and doing some magic with those. Perhps even something along the lines of what SM strings did. In any case, super excited about them.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Batrawi said:


> I wish he'd take this route. but don't forget he's using the transposition trick and already have it built-in within the infinite series...so for each 5 instruments he may actually need to record only 1 (which can then be transpose +1,+2,-1,-2).



No, no. I can't guarantee this 100%, but from what we've seen from Aaron this far that's not going to happen. Each player will be a single individual / unique sample set / recordings, not copied and transposed.



Richard Wilkinson said:


> I did end up buying both Brass and WW a couple of days ago and I'm loving them so far! I noticed the timing sometimes needs a little massaging compared to my Samplemodeling Trumpet/Trombone (particularly on portamento), but I'm slowly getting used to the libraries & the best way to play & control them.
> Can't wait for the woodwind update too - overtone/blow-strength control would be fab with super-realistic timbres.





Batrawi said:


> But for someone like myself who can't get enough of strings, I'd wish to have every single instrument (of the 40-60 pieces of the orchestea or whatever what that number might be) recorded individually, then to have the freedom to combine them as I want and to create my own divisi's & ensembles.... crazy, but maybe that's just me



That's seemingly what he's doing. Meaning there will be 60 individual players (65 with the first chairs). Stated in this quote:



aaronventure said:


> Yes. And strings will be 60 individual instruments as well (well, 65 if you count the first chairs).


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> No, no. I can't guarantee this 100%, but from what we've seen from Aaron this far that's not going to happen. Each player will be a single individual / unique sample set / recordings, not copied and transposed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's seemingly what he's doing. Meaning there will be 60 individual players (65 with the first chairs). Stated in this quote:



Oh shit, maybe we do live in that crazy universe I described. This sounds amazing already.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> The man went to the lengths of sampling the horn six times, and every single other instrument individually for brass/winds. It gives me hope for him sampling each string player individually, but I imagine that even in the craziest universe, that is simply an impossible task. So I'm curious to know how he approaches it.
> 
> I expcet like Pierre said, sampling smaller sections and doing some magic with those. Perhps even something along the lines of what SM strings did. In any case, super excited about them.



I doubt that's going to happen. Sampling sections negates a lot of the philosophy behind the series. There might be some magic he could do, sure, but most ways I can think of would give a horrendous end-product compared to just giving us individual players. Making the instruments as efficient as possible and then select the tracks / players you want and just play, effectively creating your own ensemble, would probably be the best option. There's so much going on between the individual players - slight intonation differences, pitch drift, vibrato speed, fluctuations dynamics, timings, etc - that would make it impossible to phase align - or at least phase align properly with any technology I know of.

Sample Modeling is using a different approach. To be honest, I'm baffled by their string ensembles, and I can't really wrap my head around how they work. I have some ideas but far from the full picture. Aaron's approach isn't really modelled, while Sample Modeling is more modelled, not fully, but more.

I don't own SM Strings so can't investigate further. However, I do believe the reason you get 3 instances of different instruments when loading up the ensemble is that they all contain different aspects of the sound. Those different parts of the sound are probably very carefully and precisely extracted and then put together in-engine. From comments made it seems like it's not recorded as an ensemble but an approximation of an ensemble using some voodoo. Probably why they've not given the precise size of the different ensemble sizes (small, medium, large). Not even sure if it's a continuous "morph" between the sizes or if there are just those three sizes.

This is also why you have to synchronize the patches when making a change directly in the interface: the same data needs to be sent to the other instances and then "reset" the samples in each instance to re-align them.

This is probably why Aaron stated that his flutes are "semi-modelled", if you want to call it that: he extracted parts of the sound - the harmonics - and then assembled the complete sound in-engine. We might get something similar for the stings, although I also think I remember him saying he wasn't happy with the result so he might stray away from that in the future. I guess we will just have to wait, won't we? Whatever he does, it's going to be really exciting to see.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I doubt that's going to happen. Sampling sections negates a lot of the philosophy behind the series. There might be some magic he could do, sure, but most ways I can think of would give a horrendous end-product compared to just giving us individual players. Making the instruments as efficient as possible and then select the tracks / players you want and just play, effectively creating your own ensemble, would probably be the best option. There's so much going on between the individual players - slight intonation differences, pitch drift, vibrato speed, fluctuations dynamics, timings, etc - that would make it impossible to phase align - or at least phase align properly with any technology I know of.
> 
> Sample Modeling is using a different approach. To be honest, I'm baffled by their string ensembles, and I can't really wrap my head around how they work. I have some ideas but far from the full picture. Aaron's approach isn't really modelled, while Sample Modeling is more modelled, not fully, but more.
> 
> I don't own SM Strings so can't investigate further. However, I do believe the reason you get 3 instances of different instruments when loading up the ensemble is that they all contain different aspects of the sound. Those different parts of the sound are probably very carefully and precisely extracted and then put together in-engine. From comments made it seems like it's not recorded as an ensemble but an approximation of an ensemble using some voodoo. Probably why they've not given the precise size of the different ensemble sizes (small, medium, large). Not even sure if it's a continuous "morph" between the sizes or if there are just those three sizes.
> 
> This is also why you have to synchronize the patches when making a change directly in the interface: the same data needs to be sent to the other instances and then "reset" the samples in each instance to re-align them.
> 
> This is probably why Aaron stated that his flutes are "semi-modelled", if you want to call it that: he extracted parts of the sound - the harmonics - and then assembled the complete sound in-engine. We might get something similar for the stings, although I also think I remember him saying he wasn't happy with the result so he might stray away from that in the future. I guess we will just have to wait, won't we? Whatever he does, it's going to be really exciting to see.



Agreed. The part where I'm confused is that are we saying that he'd sample 60-odd individual players? Wouldn't that be the most ambitious sampling thing we've ever heard? I imagine the costs would be astronomical! Even if we forget about that aspect, god, can you Imagine sampling that many instruments and then sorting them all out into a virtual instrument? The mind boggles...


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Agreed. The part where I'm confused is that are we saying that he'd sample 60-odd individual players? Wouldn't that be the most ambitious sampling thing we've ever heard? I imagine the costs would be astronomical! Even if we forget about that aspect, god, can you Imagine sampling that many instruments and then sorting them all out into a virtual instrument? The mind boggles...



Not really. Remember: Dry instruments mean no astronomically big-name-studio cost; not recording legato (he stated he might record re-bowing though, not sure if I remember that correctly), marcato, staccato, spiccato, vibrato, etc, also means a MUCH lower cost. We don't yet know exactly what he's recording, but since he's doing it the way he's doing it there definitely won't be as many articulations recorded as a standard library, but you will still be able to play most of them, but that's because of the crazy scripting, not the recordings; Dimension Strings also recorded individual players, not as many, but with the individual players and with all the traditional articulations.

It truly is mindboggling the amount of work that goes into making sampled instruments. If you never tried doing it, I recommend at least trying it. It will give you a newfound respect for the people behind these amazing tools.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not really. Remember: Dry instruments mean no astronomically big-name-studio cost; not recording legato (he stated he might record re-bowing though, not sure if I remember that correctly), marcato, staccato, spiccato, vibrato, etc, also means a MUCH lower cost. We don't yet know exactly what he's recording, but since he's doing it the way he's doing it there definitely won't be as many articulations recorded as a standard library, but you will still be able to play most of them, but that's because of the crazy scripting, not the recordings; Dimension Strings also recorded individual players, not as many, but with the individual players and with all the traditional articulations.
> 
> It truly is mindboggling the amount of work that goes into making sampled instruments. If you never tried doing it, I recommend at least trying it. It will give you a newfound respect for the people behind these amazing tools.



When you put it that way, it makes sense. I'm trying to envisage how the final 'instrument' would look e.g. how the engine would consolidate all those players from a single input.

I can't even begin to imagine the technical aspects involved. 

As for sampling, I did read an account by someone around all of the things it takes to get something simple, sampled. And to be honest, I don't know why people put themselves through that. This is why I stay away from criticising libraries, too much.


----------



## x-dfo

Jonathan Moray said:


> Sample Modeling is using a different approach. To be honest, I'm baffled by their string ensembles, and I can't really wrap my head around how they work. I have some ideas but far from the full picture. Aaron's approach isn't really modelled, while Sample Modeling is more modelled, not fully, but more.
> 
> I don't own SM Strings so can't investigate further. However, I do believe the reason you get 3 instances of different instruments when loading up the ensemble is that they all contain different aspects of the sound. Those different parts of the sound are probably very carefully and precisely extracted and then put together in-engine. From comments made it seems like it's not recorded as an ensemble but an approximation of an ensemble using some voodoo. Probably why they've not given the precise size of the different ensemble sizes (small, medium, large). Not even sure if it's a continuous "morph" between the sizes or if there are just those three sizes.
> 
> This is also why you have to synchronize the patches when making a change directly in the interface: the same data needs to be sent to the other instances and then "reset" the samples in each instance to re-align them.



SM Strings do almost have a pyschoacoustic 'feel' to the ensemble sound, but it can work very well with a bit of work.


----------



## I like music

x-dfo said:


> SM Strings do almost have a pyschoacoustic 'feel' to the ensemble sound, but it can work very well with a bit of work.



I'm getting closer and closer with SM strings. What I'm finding is that if I do something ever so slightly wrong in setting up the mix, it all goes bad. Slowly but surely getting there.

Main issue for me is in getting them to sit with the infinite series nicely.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

x-dfo said:


> SM Strings do almost have a pyschoacoustic 'feel' to the ensemble sound, but it can work very well with a bit of work.



I agree. SM Strings has been *very *hit and miss for me: sometimes it sounds great, other times, not so much. But it's to be excepted from a library like SM Strings; it's not the easiest, not the most userfriendly, not the best out-of-the-box library on the market, by a long shot, making it more sceptical to the user input, both mixing and performance, than other libraries.

I'm still waiting for someone close to be to buy it so I can give it a proper try.


----------



## x-dfo

Jonathan Moray said:


> I agree. SM Strings has been *very *hit and miss for me: sometimes it sounds great, other times, not so much. But it's to be excepted from a library like SM Strings; it's not the easiest, not the most userfriendly, not the best out-of-the-box library on the market, by a long shot, making it more sceptical to the user input, both mixing and performance, than other libraries.
> 
> I'm still waiting for someone close to be to buy it so I can give it a proper try.


Agreed, layering can help alot.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> When you put it that way, it makes sense. I'm trying to envisage how the final 'instrument' would look e.g. how the engine would consolidate all those players from a single input.
> 
> I can't even begin to imagine the technical aspects involved.
> 
> As for sampling, I did read an account by someone around all of the things it takes to get something simple, sampled. And to be honest, I don't know why people put themselves through that. This is why I stay away from criticising libraries, too much.



I guess it would be the same way you play all your six horns from Infinite Brass at the same time. He has stated that he will do ensemble patches and those might be more advanced than just the individual players playing, they might not.

A feature I like, that I sadly don't think we will see in Infinite Strings, is the expressive vibrato control in SM Strings, where the vibrato of the ensembles slightly synchronized to get a stronger sound / feeling vibrato. I believe this is more like the sound we hear in CSS.


----------



## x-dfo

Jonathan Moray said:


> I guess it would be the same way you play all your six horns from Infinite Brass at the same time. He has stated that he will do ensemble patches and those might be more advanced than just the individual players playing, they might not.
> 
> A feature I like, that I sadly don't think we will see in Infinite Strings, is the expressive vibrato control in SM Strings, where the vibrato of the ensembles slightly synchronized to get a stronger sound / feeling vibrato. I believe this is more like the sound we hear in CSS.


Actually I personally think layering IB/IW instruments works out better than SM, it's still a bit fake but it has a good body in space thing going on that SM does not have.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I guess it would be the same way you play all your six horns from Infinite Brass at the same time. He has stated that he will do ensemble patches and those might be more advanced than just the individual players playing, they might not.
> 
> A feature I like, that I sadly don't think we will see in Infinite Strings, is the expressive vibrato control in SM Strings, where the vibrato of the ensembles slightly synchronized to get a stronger sound / feeling vibrato. I believe this is more like the sound we hear in CSS.


I love that feature. I fear I abuse it though. Have had it cranked nice and high. On the smaller ensembles you can really hear it! I'm sure Aaron will have something planned.


----------



## El Buhdai

Did Aaron ever post that Oboe demo for IB 1.2?

EDIT: IW*. So used to talking about that excellent IB update


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## pierrevigneron

I also look forward to it ^^ 


El Buhdai said:


> Did Aaron ever post that Oboe demo for IB 1.2?


----------



## Batrawi

Any idea what the IW update will bring in terms of ethnic winds? I'm trying to save up for the strings but probably won't be able to resist until then if I see a Duduk


----------



## El Buhdai

Batrawi said:


> Any idea what the IW update will bring in terms of ethnic winds? I'm trying to save up for the strings but probably won't be able to resist until then if I see a Duduk



As far as I know, no new instruments are confirmed to be coming to 1.2. Ethnic winds are something Aaron has said he wants to do, but I don't think he's ever given a roadmap or time frame.

He did surprise us with a Piccolo trumpet alongside the massive IB 1.4 though so I wouldn't be surprised if he gave us something new with 1.2. I'll be more than satisfied if we just get a tone boost across the board for the library because woodwinds libraries often aren't nearly as agile as real woodwinds writing typically is. It's great having a bass clarinet, oboes, and clarinets that can play some truly fun stuff. Couple that same agility with a better tone and I'll be even more satisfied than I am now.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Okay too: if Aaron improves the set very simply as he does to go from IB1.3 to IB1.4, what does it matter if he doesn't add a new instrument: I will be very happy (and also if he improves these flutes a little below the other instruments from my point of view)


----------



## I like music

Super looking forward to that update. IB is fantastic, IW is good. Imagine if IW improves. I'll be insanely happy.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Super looking forward to that update. IB is fantastic, IW is good. Imagine if IW improves. I'll be insanely happy.



For 1.2 the main thing I'm looking for is some "woodiness" and grit to be added to the sound across the board. After using the library for months I'm finally starting to hear why some folks say they sound like synthesizers. Mostly on longer sustained notes though.

Instruments that need larger tone enhancements are the Bassoons (a little too "round" sounding? Vibrato can't be heard through other instruments. Legato transitions have a weird bump in them), English Horns (not nasally enough, and too dark), and of course all instruments in the flute family.

I think IW 1.1's instruments mostly do a great job at capturing the general character of the instruments they emulate. It's just the smaller things that are missing or are off.


----------



## Max Bonsi

Hi guys,
I have SM Brass bundle...
So now convince me to buy IB


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## I like music

Max Bonsi said:


> Hi guys,
> I have SM Brass bundle...
> So now convince me to buy IB



I'll post some naked examples of the trumpet in the next few days. To be fair, I see them both as excellent libraries. I will probably add SM to the arsenal.


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## Gauss

And you can support Aaron and he is an excellent developer!


----------



## vicontrolu

Hey i am just wondering..since this libraries are pretty dry..have you guys used them in a context other than orchestral? Big band, marching band, funk or other more modern genres? Is there any example to liste anywhere?


----------



## shawnsingh

Well I know it's still basically just orchestral, but I've been working on a fanfare/bouncy/march piece using IB. I finished sketching about 80% of it now, and I'm going to try orchestrating it soon.

For this I've been using sketch mode, which is great. One thing however, I seem to be running into a bug on the trumpets where it eventually stops automating dynamics with CC1 input. It seems to respond to CC1 when note-on initially starts a note, but can't seem to change the dynamics while the note is being held. Anyone else finding the same issue?

This seems to happen in both sketch and non-sketch mode, I've only found it happening on the trumpets so far, and so far I've had luck making it go away with restarting my template.

Other than this issue, I'm very excited about working on this piece with IB. With this piece I wanted very precise tailoring of note durations, which is much harder to achieve with other sample libraries that provide only a few types of shorts that have fixed one-shot durations. The trombones especially have turned out to sound really fantastic in sketch mode, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens now when I try to program it properly.


----------



## x-dfo

shawnsingh said:


> Well I know it's still basically just orchestral, but I've been working on a fanfare/bouncy/march piece using IB. I finished sketching about 80% of it now, and I'm going to try orchestrating it soon.
> 
> For this I've been using sketch mode, which is great. One thing however, I seem to be running into a bug on the trumpets where it eventually stops automating dynamics with CC1 input. It seems to respond to CC1 when note-on initially starts a note, but can't seem to change the dynamics while the note is being held. Anyone else finding the same issue?
> 
> This seems to happen in both sketch and non-sketch mode, I've only found it happening on the trumpets so far, and so far I've had luck making it go away with restarting my template.
> 
> Other than this issue, I'm very excited about working on this piece with IB. With this piece I wanted very precise tailoring of note durations, which is much harder to achieve with other sample libraries that provide only a few types of shorts that have fixed one-shot durations. The trombones especially have turned out to sound really fantastic in sketch mode, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens now when I try to program it properly.



What exactly is sketch mode??


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## I like music

x-dfo said:


> What exactly is sketch mode??


Must be the legato bypass.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Well I know it's still basically just orchestral, but I've been working on a fanfare/bouncy/march piece using IB. I finished sketching about 80% of it now, and I'm going to try orchestrating it soon.
> 
> For this I've been using sketch mode, which is great. One thing however, I seem to be running into a bug on the trumpets where it eventually stops automating dynamics with CC1 input. It seems to respond to CC1 when note-on initially starts a note, but can't seem to change the dynamics while the note is being held. Anyone else finding the same issue?
> 
> This seems to happen in both sketch and non-sketch mode, I've only found it happening on the trumpets so far, and so far I've had luck making it go away with restarting my template.
> 
> Other than this issue, I'm very excited about working on this piece with IB. With this piece I wanted very precise tailoring of note durations, which is much harder to achieve with other sample libraries that provide only a few types of shorts that have fixed one-shot durations. The trombones especially have turned out to sound really fantastic in sketch mode, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens now when I try to program it properly.


Not had the problem, sorry to say. When can we hear the piece?


----------



## Robert_G

I've talked myself out of this series for awhile, but I keep coming back to it. 
One of those reasons is I like getting full orchestras from one developer. 

Am I late to the party? When are the Strings going to be released? If there was good bundle sale on all 3 libs...I'd probably bite.


----------



## I like music

Robert_G said:


> I've talked myself out of this series for awhile, but I keep coming back to it.
> One of those reasons is I like getting full orchestras from one developer.
> 
> Am I late to the party? When are the Strings going to be released? If there was good bundle sale on all 3 libs...I'd probably bite.



You won't be disappointed! I feel they can blend well with other libs. Superb libraries. The world may end tomorrow (super duper missiles) etc etc

A great and flexible investment!

Have a feeling strings could be a while.


----------



## Robert_G

I like music said:


> You won't be disappointed! I feel they can blend well with other libs. Superb libraries. The world may end tomorrow (super duper missiles) etc etc
> 
> A great and flexible investment!
> 
> Have a feeling strings could be a while.



Yeah....no more partials for me. I got burned with CSS CSB....although they are so good, I can't really be that bitter.

I am surprised these guys are doing the strings last though.....seems everyone else does the strings first.


----------



## I like music

Robert_G said:


> Yeah....no more partials for me. I got burned with CSS CSB....although they are so good, I can't really be that bitter.
> 
> I am surprised these guys are doing the strings last though.....seems everyone else does the strings first.



Perhaps first-time devs (or ones that haven't done them too often beforehand, or are testing a new concept) find it lower risk? The way Aaron seems to be developing the strings, I imagine it takes way more time and money. Pure speculation, but I hadn't thought about it before.

That's right, a lot of them do strings first.


----------



## El Buhdai

Robert_G said:


> I am surprised these guys are doing the strings last though.....seems everyone else does the strings first.



And then those people never actually release their woodwinds library. 

Not naming names, mostly because there's so many who do this that it's basically a meme now. Glad we have our brass and especially woodwinds first. The last thing the world needs is another strings library at this point. Still excited for Infinite Strings, but the market needed a good woodwinds library, and a be library with more mutes and flexibility far more.


----------



## DANIELE

Robert_G said:


> Yeah....no more partials for me. I got burned with CSS CSB....although they are so good, I can't really be that bitter.
> 
> I am surprised these guys are doing the strings last though.....seems everyone else does the strings first.



The strings are the most difficult to realize. In the meantime Aaron learned different things to optimize the technology and to do the things better, the strings will benefit from this.


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> And then those people never actually release their woodwinds library.


Lol. True. Century Woodwinds!


----------



## Consona

Still no single instruments to buy? 

$450 / 26 instruments = $17,3 per instrument. I'm willing to pay triple that for one trumpet alone!  (Oh, that's without VAT, so I'm willing to pay like double and something close to triple for it. )


----------



## I like music

Consona said:


> Still no single instruments to buy?
> 
> $450 / 26 instruments = $17,3 per instrument. I'm willing to pay triple that for one trumpet alone!  (Oh, that's without VAT, so I'm willing to pay like double and something close to triple for it. )



No joke. I am messing around with an IB trumpet ensemble right this very second. I am not even writing anything because it is just so much fun to play the Indiana Jones thing again and again and again.


----------



## Robert_G

doctoremmet said:


> Lol. True. Century Woodwinds!



This one really bothers me. I friend of mine has Century Strings, Brass, and Ostinatos. They are fantastic libraries. They all go so well together.....but again....just ditch the woodwinds.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> No joke. I am messing around with an IB trumpet ensemble right this very second. I am not even writing anything because it is just so much fun to play the Indiana Jones thing again and again and again.



Can relate. IB 1.4 trumpets handle that theme with striking similarity to a live performance.


----------



## El Buhdai

Consona said:


> Still no single instruments to buy?
> 
> $450 / 26 instruments = $17,3 per instrument. I'm willing to pay triple that for one trumpet alone!  (Oh, that's without VAT, so I'm willing to pay like double and something close to triple for it. )



That business model wouldn't be good for Aaron at all, which is why I suspect he won't do it. The transpose and positioning feature of Infinite would allow you to buy one instrument from each section, duplicate, transpose, and position it, and make your own sections for extremely cheap.

I also find this request to be strange because from what I've seen, no one asks other developers to sell patches individually...


----------



## doctoremmet

Robert_G said:


> They are fantastic libraries.


Absolutely. A bit of a second tier / category it seems, as not many people here actually mention it much


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> Not had the problem, sorry to say. When can we hear the piece?



Will try to have it finished in a few weeks, perhaps by beginning of June. Barely able to work 30-45 minutes a day on music these days because of our 1 year old staying home due to COVID days. By the way, hope everyone is staying healthy and sane.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Can relate. IB 1.4 trumpets handle that theme with striking similarity to a live performance.



Exactly! I detuned a 4th trumpet (and have it as a 5th trumpet) so in an ensemble type setting I have it buzzing justttt a fraction off. Really adds a nice spice. And yeah, it handles that theme super well. Crazy good.


----------



## Consona

El Buhdai said:


> I also find this request to be strange because from what I've seen, no one asks other developers to sell patches individually...


I think OT's SINE a la carte is exactly that.



El Buhdai said:


> That business model wouldn't be good for Aaron at all, which is why I suspect he won't do it. The transpose and positioning feature of Infinite would allow you to buy one instrument from each section, duplicate, transpose, and position it, and make your own sections for extremely cheap.


You are probably right. So what could work? Making like a cheaper lite version with only normal trumpets, horns and trombones? I.e. no all those fancy piccolo, bass and contra trumpets, trombones, tubas and euphoniums? F**k, I'd buy just the normal trumpet and horn for like $150.


----------



## x-dfo

The most amazing part of the infinite series is it's just fun to play! It's so inspiring to noodle and come up with ideas compared to needing to keyswitch or use different channels/tracks with specific articulations. I just can't emphasize INSPIRATION AND FUN enough.


----------



## Øivind

I made a short fanfare based on a theme i made for another track.

I never finished this orchestral variant so there are issues here and there like dynamics, but i think maybe it turned out ok for my first fanfare. Strings and Percussion is BBCSO, all brass is Infinite Brass.

I love both IW and IB. So easy and fun to play.


----------



## I like music

oivind_rosvold said:


> I made a short fanfare based on a theme i made for another track.
> 
> I never finished this orchestral variant so there are issues here and there like dynamics, but i think maybe it turned out ok for my first fanfare. Strings and Percussion is BBCSO, all brass is Infinite Brass.
> 
> I love both IW and IB. So easy and fun to play.


Not used? You gotta use this in something. This is excellent


----------



## Øivind

Thank you <3 

I ended up making a shorter brass quartet style variant of it that i think wil be used. Pretty easy to do with Infinite as i just changed rooms and removed 2/3rd of the instruments.


----------



## Terry93D

I'm considering purchasing LA Scoring Strings, as they're on sale. Has anyone here used them in combination with the Infinite series? How do they sound together?


----------



## DivingInSpace

Terry93D said:


> I'm considering purchasing LA Scoring Strings, as they're on sale. Has anyone here used them in combination with the Infinite series? How do they sound together?


Honestly.. Aren't they always on sale? It might just be me who have only visited their website in sales periods, but i don't remember even seeing their products not on sale.


----------



## Terry93D

DivingInSpace said:


> Honestly.. Aren't they always on sale? It might just be me who have only visited their website in sales periods, but i don't remember even seeing their products not on sale.


They are always on sale, but they're more on sale then usual right now. XD


----------



## El Buhdai

@aaronventure I'd like to make a request for Infinite Strings. Since Infinite Brass and Winds extend to genres outside of orchestral with their extensive mutes, glides, and growl techniques, I would absolutely love it if Infinite Strings could be used in a pop setting for fun and playful writing like in this song:



You've told us that it would make use with sections of varying sizes so we already know a small section like this would be possible, but if I can do even half of the fun stuff the strings do in this pop song I'd be so happy. 😄


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> @aaronventure I'd like to make a request for Infinite Strings. Since Infinite Brass and Winds extend to genres outside of orchestral with their extensive mutes, glides, and growl techniques, I would absolutely love it if Infinite Strings could be used in a pop setting for fun and playful writing like in this song:
> 
> 
> 
> You've told us that it would make use with sections of varying sizes so we already know a small section like this would be possible, but if I can do even half of the fun stuff the strings do in this pop song I'd be so happy. 😄



That doesn't sound like anything too complex, sounds like you'd have a lot of pitch-bending going on.

Since at the core of the instruments are audio samples, pitch bending beyond 2 semitones always results in a not-so-great sound. The algorithm that pitch shifts audio simply cannot recreate formants correctly nor keep the timbre fully intact. 

I imagine with string sections it'll be more forgiving than with something like an oboe or a bassoon, though. Plus it's all really fast and in a mix so that would help as well. We'll see.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> That doesn't sound like anything too complex, sounds like you'd have a lot of pitch-bending going on.
> 
> Since at the core of the instruments are audio samples, pitch bending beyond 2 semitones always results in a not-so-great sound. The algorithm that pitch shifts audio simply cannot recreate formants correctly nor keep the timbre fully intact.
> 
> I imagine with string sections it'll be more forgiving than with something like an oboe or a bassoon, though. Plus it's all really fast and in a mix so that would help as well. We'll see.



I want to give you some more money. Got anything new to sell, on the horizon?


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> That doesn't sound like anything too complex, sounds like you'd have a lot of pitch-bending going on.
> 
> Since at the core of the instruments are audio samples, pitch bending beyond 2 semitones always results in a not-so-great sound. The algorithm that pitch shifts audio simply cannot recreate formants correctly nor keep the timbre fully intact.
> 
> I imagine with string sections it'll be more forgiving than with something like an oboe or a bassoon, though. Plus it's all really fast and in a mix so that would help as well. We'll see.



I wasn't expecting a response, just was hoping you would see it, so thanks! And I assume the runs won't be super hard given the current capabilities of the other libraries. The performance versatility has been very consistent across the libraries. One big thing I hope that will be different for strings is a way to control the tightness of the performance of the ensemble and be able to make the performance very, very loose. Kind of like the Always Sunny in Philadelphia theme song. I would love to be able to get a looser sound with a smaller ensemble, as CSS is just a little too tight.


----------



## Terry93D

Is Infinite Strings going to be coming soon? I don't want to spend my money on LASS only to have an infinitely (heh heh) superior option come along just a little while afterward.


----------



## El Buhdai

Terry93D said:


> Is Infinite Strings going to be coming soon? I don't want to spend my money on LASS only to have an infinitely (heh heh) superior option come along just a little while afterward.



Sadly I don't think it is. Up next is the Infinite Woodwinds update to bring that library up to the quality of Infinite Brass, and that update is still a few months out. Not to mention if Aaron didn't have everything recorded before the pandemic, that could be an even bigger hurdle. Crafting these instruments from the samples Aaron uses takes long enough on its own, but if he didn't finish the recording process before COVID-19, well... yeah.


----------



## Batrawi

Terry93D said:


> Is Infinite Strings going to be coming soon?


It's labelled '2020' on the website.. so even if this means it will come out on 31-Dec-20, then I would consider this soon enough for strings developed with the Infinite standards. I'm personally refraining from buying any string library


----------



## shawnsingh

shawnsingh said:


> Will try to have it finished in a few weeks, perhaps by beginning of June. Barely able to work 30-45 minutes a day on music these days because of our 1 year old staying home due to COVID days. By the way, hope everyone is staying healthy and sane.



OK so it's becoming clear that this piece will not be finished any time soon - too many other priorities taking over. So instead, here's the first minute and half, where I did finish orchestrating and programming the brass at least. It's 100% Infinite Brass.



Really, the rest of the piece is going to be more of the same anyway. There's a good chance I won't be able to make the composition climax and arc the way I'm hoping. In retrospect, I made a mistake focusing my initial sketch too much on the brass. So now I cornered myself into the awkward process of fishing for ways to fit strings and woodwinds into the piece as an afterthought, and it's not going very well in that way. 

Also, I don't think the the brass and strings are sitting well together in the mix, something is off. But I can't pinpoint how to improve it. So mix suggestions would be very welcome and appreciated!

But what REALLY matters in this thread - this library has exceeded my expectations and I don't have the right words to express how thrilled I am! I doubt that any other current library can accomplish this degree of controllable nuance and character while still sounding realistic and having a sane workflow. This is really a sweet spot among all the different ways to design orchestral virtual instruments. Thank you Aaron for such a wonderful brass library!


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> OK so it's becoming clear that this piece will not be finished any time soon - too many other priorities taking over. So instead, here's the first minute and half, where I did finish orchestrating and programming the brass at least. It's 100% Infinite Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, the rest of the piece is going to be more of the same anyway. There's a good chance I won't be able to make the composition climax and arc the way I'm hoping. In retrospect, I made a mistake focusing my initial sketch too much on the brass. So now I cornered myself into the awkward process of fishing for ways to fit strings and woodwinds into the piece as an afterthought, and it's not going very well in that way.
> 
> Also, I don't think the the brass and strings are sitting well together in the mix, something is off. But I can't pinpoint how to improve it. So mix suggestions would be very welcome and appreciated!
> 
> But what REALLY matters in this thread - this library has exceeded my expectations and I don't have the right words to express how thrilled I am! I doubt that any other current library can accomplish this degree of controllable nuance and character while still sounding realistic and having a sane workflow. This is really a sweet spot among all the different ways to design orchestral virtual instruments. Thank you Aaron for such a wonderful brass library!




This is _fantastic_, man! Very very good! The composition I love, and the brass does it justice. Are there still people who claim the tone isn't good? Tone is _excellent_!

I thought the strings sounded good. What strings are these btw? Right now I'm trying to bend SM strings to sound like they are in the same ambience as Mozarteum on IB. Struggling.


----------



## Terry93D

Batrawi said:


> It's labelled '2020' on the website.. so even if this means it will come out on 31-Dec-20, then I would consider this soon enough for strings developed with the Infinite standards. I'm personally refraining from buying any string library


That's what I was thinking. Better strings would be nice, but it is not a pressing need, so I'll wait for the Infinite Strings.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> This is _fantastic_, man! Very very good! The composition I love, and the brass does it justice. Are there still people who claim the tone isn't good? Tone is _excellent_!
> 
> I thought the strings sounded good. What strings are these btw? Right now I'm trying to bend SM strings to sound like they are in the same ambience as Mozarteum on IB. Struggling.



Thanks! I agree that the tone in the library is under-appreciated.

Strings used - OT Berlin Strings, occasionally OT First Chairs layered on top. I'm using tree-only mic position for those libraries. The vigoroso sustains are the sustain accent articulation. Percussion is a mix of OT Berlin and EWQL Hollywood.

Luckily for me, OT already had a tone that I prefer, so I could use that as a reference and bend IB sound to roughly match. By the way, I actually just tried to add a slight touch of algo reverb on the brass, and a bit more warmth in EQ, and the brass seems to sit much better with strings now. Please do share what you eventually come up with for making SM strings match the Mozarteum =)


----------



## CT

shawnsingh said:


> OK so it's becoming clear that this piece will not be finished any time soon - too many other priorities taking over. So instead, here's the first minute and half, where I did finish orchestrating and programming the brass at least. It's 100% Infinite Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, the rest of the piece is going to be more of the same anyway. There's a good chance I won't be able to make the composition climax and arc the way I'm hoping. In retrospect, I made a mistake focusing my initial sketch too much on the brass. So now I cornered myself into the awkward process of fishing for ways to fit strings and woodwinds into the piece as an afterthought, and it's not going very well in that way.
> 
> Also, I don't think the the brass and strings are sitting well together in the mix, something is off. But I can't pinpoint how to improve it. So mix suggestions would be very welcome and appreciated!
> 
> But what REALLY matters in this thread - this library has exceeded my expectations and I don't have the right words to express how thrilled I am! I doubt that any other current library can accomplish this degree of controllable nuance and character while still sounding realistic and having a sane workflow. This is really a sweet spot among all the different ways to design orchestral virtual instruments. Thank you Aaron for such a wonderful brass library!




This is good. I would like to hear more demos of the brass of this caliber. 

I hope that whatever updates are in store for the woodwinds will help me warm up to them. These two could be a must-have for me, if so.


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> OK so it's becoming clear that this piece will not be finished any time soon - too many other priorities taking over. So instead, here's the first minute and half, where I did finish orchestrating and programming the brass at least. It's 100% Infinite Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, the rest of the piece is going to be more of the same anyway. There's a good chance I won't be able to make the composition climax and arc the way I'm hoping. In retrospect, I made a mistake focusing my initial sketch too much on the brass. So now I cornered myself into the awkward process of fishing for ways to fit strings and woodwinds into the piece as an afterthought, and it's not going very well in that way.
> 
> Also, I don't think the the brass and strings are sitting well together in the mix, something is off. But I can't pinpoint how to improve it. So mix suggestions would be very welcome and appreciated!
> 
> But what REALLY matters in this thread - this library has exceeded my expectations and I don't have the right words to express how thrilled I am! I doubt that any other current library can accomplish this degree of controllable nuance and character while still sounding realistic and having a sane workflow. This is really a sweet spot among all the different ways to design orchestral virtual instruments. Thank you Aaron for such a wonderful brass library!




One thing I've struggled with in Infinite is that in some circumstances, the instruments combine to sound rather weird. The individual sections will sound great, but when they all come together, a strange lack of body and buzziness will pop up that I've been searching for the solution to. But your brass section sounds incredible. This has to be the best Infinite Brass demo we've seen so far!

How did you get Infinite Brass to combine so well? There's very little of the buzziness that comes from an Infinite-only ensemble. I'm absolutely blown away. I would love to hear any tips you can offer.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> One thing I've struggled with in Infinite is that in some circumstances, the instruments combine to sound rather weird. The individual sections will sound great, but when they all come together, a strange lack of body and buzziness will pop up that I've been searching for the solution to. But your brass section sounds incredible. This has to be the best Infinite Brass demo we've seen so far!
> 
> How did you get Infinite Brass to combine so well? There's very little of the buzziness that comes from an Infinite-only ensemble. I'm absolutely blown away. I would love to hear any tips you can offer.



I think Shawn tamed some of that with EQs. He detailed it in a post mid-April. I'm wondering if he kept some of that EQ on.


----------



## Batrawi

shawnsingh said:


> I doubt that any other current library can accomplish this degree of controllable nuance and character while still sounding realistic and having a sane workflow


I can't agree more on this.This is Infinite series in a nutshell. It really brings the best of both worlds: modelling playability + sampling warmth. I never came across a virtual instrument that nailed this equation THAT good!...all while being gentle on your hard space and cpu ram...all while sparing you the headache of mixing and virtual positioning with a few clicks..!
....It all makes sense now...the Nfinite series is putting an Nd to all problems we used to face with traditional VIs...Infinite series is "N"!


----------



## DANIELE

Batrawi said:


> I can't agree more on this.This is Infinite series in a nutshell. It really brings the best of both worlds: modelling playability + sampling warmth. I never came across a virtual instrument that nailed this equation THAT good!...all while being gentle on your hard space and cpu ram...all while sparing you the headache of mixing and virtual positioning with a few clicks..!
> ....It all makes sense now...the Nfinite series is putting an Nd to all problems we used to face with traditional VIs...Infinite series is "N"!



I think it is only the begiNning!


----------



## Batrawi

DANIELE said:


> I think it is only the begiNning!


It's the begiNning and Nd and Nything N betweeN


----------



## x-dfo

I like music said:


> I think Shawn tamed some of that with EQs. He detailed it in a post mid-April. I'm wondering if he kept some of that EQ on.


EQ helps IB and IW alot, actually moreso with IB, esp the tubas and trombones.


----------



## El Buhdai

I announced this a long time ago, and after putting it in a project and working with it a bit, I think it's ready to be shared. Here's my Infinite Ensembles for FL Studio!

Features:

- Control all instruments separately and at once with the click of a button. The button is MIDI-learnable and is on CC 22 by default.
- Write or control MIDI CC without clicking "Browse Parameters" and having to scroll for an eternity. Just open up the custom UI for the section, right click a control, and there you go!
- Save time by writing or playing a line once and having it played back by all instruments in the section (Make sure the "Ensemble" button is on!)
- Quickly shuffle through mutes or enable mixed mic on all instruments at once without having to do it individually.

Known Issues:
- If you toggle the "Ensemble" button off while a line is playing, the line will continue playing indefinitely on some instruments since they never recieved a MIDI OFF message from the script. I don't know KSP, so I have no idea how to fix this. It would be great if someone could fix this! I only did the routing and UI, my a composer/sample developer friend of mine made the script and I don't wanna keep bugging him to add more to it. 
- The keyboard on the custom UI doesn't work and I haven't been able to figure out how to make it work. Right now it's just there for looks I guess. :/

Even with those two quirks, the system has dramatically improved my ability to experiment and test things out on the fly. I've dropped it into one project and when I went to work on the others, the convenience that this system provided was sorely missed. I hope it can benefit you guys too. Attached are presets for the MIDI Out plugin in FL Studio 20, Patcher presets, a .txt containing the multi-script, and the project I created this system in so you can explore and understand how all of this works.

The included ensembles are as follows:

- 4 Trumpets
- 6 French Horns
- 4 Trombones (3 Tenor + Bass)
- 2 Euphoniums

*The multiscript comes courtesy of Patrik Herman of Herman Samples:





Herman Samples - Home







hermansamples.com





This is just the initial release. If necessary I can make a video explaining how things work and how to customize this system for your own use. I'm in a bit of a hurry but I at least wanted to get it out there because it's been way too long since I announced it. I'll be around to answer any questions you might have!


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I announced this a long time ago, and after putting it in a project and working with it a bit, I think it's ready to be shared. Here's my Infinite Ensembles for FL Studio!
> 
> Features:
> 
> - Control all instruments separately and at once with the click of a button. The button is MIDI-learnable and is on CC 22 by default.
> - Write or control MIDI CC without clicking "Browse Parameters" and having to scroll for an eternity. Just open up the custom UI for the section, right click a control, and there you go!
> - Save time by writing or playing a line once and having it played back by all instruments in the section (Make sure the "Ensemble" button is on!)
> - Quickly shuffle through mutes or enable mixed mic on all instruments at once without having to do it individually.
> 
> Known Issues:
> - If you toggle the "Ensemble" button off while a line is playing, the line will continue playing indefinitely on some instruments since they never recieved a MIDI OFF message from the script. I don't know KSP, so I have no idea how to fix this. It would be great if someone could fix this! I only did the routing and UI, my a composer/sample developer friend of mine made the script.
> - The keyboard on the custom UI doesn't work and I haven't been able to figure out how to make it work. Right now it's just there I guess. :/
> 
> Even with those two quirks, the system has dramatically improved my ability to experiment and test things out on the fly. I've dropped it into one project and when I went to work on the others, the convenience that this system provided was sorely missed. I hope it can benefit you guys too. Attached are presets for the MIDI Out plugin in FL Studio 20, Patcher presets, a .txt containing the multi-script, and the project I created this system in so you can explore and understand how all of this works.
> 
> The included ensembles are as follows:
> 
> - 4 Trumpets
> - 6 French Horns
> - 4 Trombones (3 Tenor + Bass)
> - 2 Euphoniums
> 
> *The multiscript comes courtesy of Patrik Herman of Herman Samples:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herman Samples - Home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hermansamples.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just the initial release. If necessary I can make a video explaining how things work and how to customize this system for your own use. I'm in a bit of a hurry but I at least wanted to get it out there because it's been way too long since I announced it. I'll be around to answer any questions you might have!



Makes me want FL Studio now...


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> One thing I've struggled with in Infinite is that in some circumstances, the instruments combine to sound rather weird. The individual sections will sound great, but when they all come together, a strange lack of body and buzziness will pop up that I've been searching for the solution to. But your brass section sounds incredible. This has to be the best Infinite Brass demo we've seen so far!
> 
> How did you get Infinite Brass to combine so well? There's very little of the buzziness that comes from an Infinite-only ensemble. I'm absolutely blown away. I would love to hear any tips you can offer.



If you're able to provide a video or description of what your workflow is, it might be easier to suggest after hearing it. Meanwhile, here's a few thoughts that might help...

(1) I did use Berlin Brass as a mix reference to try and EQ the IB sections to my preference. This helped immensely.
As expected, I ended up with similar EQ curves for horns/trumpets/tuba. In particular, they all have some kind of gradual rolloff of high frequencies starting around 2 kHz and dipping at around 10 kHz. 

For me personally, I felt that the default timbre of trumpets and trombones are not matched quite right. The trombones seem too solid and warm with less bite and power - not bright enough. But it took me a day of struggle trying to match IB trombones to Berlin trombones until I was able to identify this. So my EQ curve from trombones is notably different from the other sections - has a hump around 6 kHz. To my ear, this makes a huge difference in how nicely the trumpets and trombones match - since they can get similarly bright when they play at the top dynamics.

Horns, is a bit more of a forgiving wildcard, I think, since the bells point backwards, but sometimes maybe they're mic'ed from behind to catch that direct bell sound too, so I think we're used to hearing different ways of horns blending in an orchestra anyway.

(2) Another major important trick is that we can't abuse the bright power of top dynamics layer. In a traditional orchestral setting, player would rarely ever try to sustain that overblown power, not even when they are at climactic fff moments. Maybe in a jazz/big band settings they'd use that brightness more. Anyway, here are the possible ways that bright power could show up: (1) on an immediate sudden attack, which IB controls by note velocity (2) on an almost-immediate-but-not-quite attack, which you can draw as a quick CC hump at the start of a note - the middle of that hump will dip into the bright power dynamics, but will not stay there. (3) more rounded marcato bright power attacks, which can be drawn as wider CC humps that dip into those bright power dynamics, (4) on crescendos or swells. But the fifth option - starting with a bright attack, and sustaining that through the note - I think most of the time that will sound unnatural especially when exposed. It might work rarely when there's a lot of other sound happening at the same time.

(3) Having different CC curves and different note velocities / note durations / note-on timings for every solo player is essential for a more natural ensemble sound. I've found very often that short notes need to be programmed differently for different solo players in order to sound right. 

(4) proper orchestration probably matters, but I don't know how much. If you're just noodling around with all instruments playing in unison from your MIDI controller, with the same CC curves, it might sound awkward just because of that. Eventually when you orchestrate and assign individual notes to individual players, it might sound more normal.

Is it possible any of these ideas might help you get the sound you want?


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> If you're able to provide a video or description of what your workflow is, it might be easier to suggest after hearing it. Meanwhile, here's a few thoughts that might help...
> 
> (1) I did use Berlin Brass as a mix reference to try and EQ the IB sections to my preference. This helped immensely.
> As expected, I ended up with similar EQ curves for horns/trumpets/tuba. In particular, they all have some kind of gradual rolloff of high frequencies starting around 2 kHz and dipping at around 10 kHz.
> 
> For me personally, I felt that the default timbre of trumpets and trombones are not matched quite right. The trombones seem too solid and warm with less bite and power - not bright enough. But it took me a day of struggle trying to match IB trombones to Berlin trombones until I was able to identify this. So my EQ curve from trombones is notably different from the other sections - has a hump around 6 kHz. To my ear, this makes a huge difference in how nicely the trumpets and trombones match - since they can get similarly bright when they play at the top dynamics.
> 
> Horns, is a bit more of a forgiving wildcard, I think, since the bells point backwards, but sometimes maybe they're mic'ed from behind to catch that direct bell sound too, so I think we're used to hearing different ways of horns blending in an orchestra anyway.
> 
> (2) Another major important trick is that we can't abuse the bright power of top dynamics layer. In a traditional orchestral setting, player would rarely ever try to sustain that overblown power, not even when they are at climactic fff moments. Maybe in a jazz/big band settings they'd use that brightness more. Anyway, here are the possible ways that bright power could show up: (1) on an immediate sudden attack, which IB controls by note velocity (2) on an almost-immediate-but-not-quite attack, which you can draw as a quick CC hump at the start of a note - the middle of that hump will dip into the bright power dynamics, but will not stay there. (3) more rounded marcato bright power attacks, which can be drawn as wider CC humps that dip into those bright power dynamics, (4) on crescendos or swells. But the fifth option - starting with a bright attack, and sustaining that through the note - I think most of the time that will sound unnatural especially when exposed. It might work rarely when there's a lot of other sound happening at the same time.
> 
> (3) Having different CC curves and different note velocities / note durations / note-on timings for every solo player is essential for a more natural ensemble sound. I've found very often that short notes need to be programmed differently for different solo players in order to sound right.
> 
> (4) proper orchestration probably matters, but I don't know how much. If you're just noodling around with all instruments playing in unison from your MIDI controller, with the same CC curves, it might sound awkward just because of that. Eventually when you orchestrate and assign individual notes to individual players, it might sound more normal.
> 
> Is it possible any of these ideas might help you get the sound you want?


Nice summary. And the great thing is that these libraries allow for the control required to do that with the CC data. 

Did you pretty much stay close to the eq settings that you originally shared with us? I've been using those to good effect but curious if your changed anything subsequently


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> If you're able to provide a video or description of what your workflow is, it might be easier to suggest after hearing it. Meanwhile, here's a few thoughts that might help...
> 
> (1) I did use Berlin Brass as a mix reference to try and EQ the IB sections to my preference. This helped immensely.
> As expected, I ended up with similar EQ curves for horns/trumpets/tuba. In particular, they all have some kind of gradual rolloff of high frequencies starting around 2 kHz and dipping at around 10 kHz.
> 
> For me personally, I felt that the default timbre of trumpets and trombones are not matched quite right. The trombones seem too solid and warm with less bite and power - not bright enough. But it took me a day of struggle trying to match IB trombones to Berlin trombones until I was able to identify this. So my EQ curve from trombones is notably different from the other sections - has a hump around 6 kHz. To my ear, this makes a huge difference in how nicely the trumpets and trombones match - since they can get similarly bright when they play at the top dynamics.
> 
> Horns, is a bit more of a forgiving wildcard, I think, since the bells point backwards, but sometimes maybe they're mic'ed from behind to catch that direct bell sound too, so I think we're used to hearing different ways of horns blending in an orchestra anyway.
> 
> (2) Another major important trick is that we can't abuse the bright power of top dynamics layer. In a traditional orchestral setting, player would rarely ever try to sustain that overblown power, not even when they are at climactic fff moments. Maybe in a jazz/big band settings they'd use that brightness more. Anyway, here are the possible ways that bright power could show up: (1) on an immediate sudden attack, which IB controls by note velocity (2) on an almost-immediate-but-not-quite attack, which you can draw as a quick CC hump at the start of a note - the middle of that hump will dip into the bright power dynamics, but will not stay there. (3) more rounded marcato bright power attacks, which can be drawn as wider CC humps that dip into those bright power dynamics, (4) on crescendos or swells. But the fifth option - starting with a bright attack, and sustaining that through the note - I think most of the time that will sound unnatural especially when exposed. It might work rarely when there's a lot of other sound happening at the same time.
> 
> (3) Having different CC curves and different note velocities / note durations / note-on timings for every solo player is essential for a more natural ensemble sound. I've found very often that short notes need to be programmed differently for different solo players in order to sound right.
> 
> (4) proper orchestration probably matters, but I don't know how much. If you're just noodling around with all instruments playing in unison from your MIDI controller, with the same CC curves, it might sound awkward just because of that. Eventually when you orchestrate and assign individual notes to individual players, it might sound more normal.
> 
> Is it possible any of these ideas might help you get the sound you want?



Thank you so much for taking all this time to write this message. Yeah, so to address what you said in #4, I definitely find my problems with Infinite Brass in slower legato sections and long swells. I'm no master of orchestration of course, but I think in general my music isn't entirely lacking in that regard. I think the difference between your music and mine though is that you write very, very active parts. These kinds of phrases are the ones I've found that Infinite will play the best. Whereas I've been recently shying away from more complex writing in order to focus on letting a composition move slower and take its time. I'm still fresh off a project with much more technical writing and I wanted a change of pace. 

And to answer your final question, yes I think these are excellent tips! Infinite Brass' trumpets can get very bright, very fast (which you mentioned in #2). That's something I noticed immediately when I popped open the new update. To add to that, I'm a former Horn player myself and it's always been a petpeeve of mine when people write all of their brass parts to abuse certain dynamics when you could have done the same with lower dynamics. So I'm with you there. When things get louder, I typically try to stick to f or ff and reserve fff for very specific circumstances.

I've also noticed that, like you said, the trombones tend to be warmer by comparison. In my opinion, the French Horns have the perfect dynamics curve and get bright at the right times. I think one of the greater takeaways from your message for me was using a library with your preferred sound to sculpt the tone of Infinite Brass. I might get my hands dirty and use Hollywood Brass as my reference. I'll tame the highs on the trumpets a bit without making them as mellow as the ones in HB. I'll see if I can bring a little more air out of the horns put them in line with the HB horns, and finally, tone-match the bones a decent bit without making them as cold and brittle. So basically, starting with HB for each instrument, and then making small tweaks to improve upon the tone of HB.

As for #3, I may have to make sure that even with my new ensemble system for FL, I still program individual instruments for parts that make extensive use of short articulations.

I see that I just need to spend a day getting my hands dirty and really exploring the sound I wanna get out of Infinite Brass instead of using them out of the box as I've been doing for so long. It's just so tempting since, aside from the buzziness you get from the combined sound of the whole library, it already sounds so great out of the box. I'll get my hands dirty soon and I'll be using your tips as a bit of a guide along the way, cause I can't stress this enough, you made an excellent demo my friend. Thanks for your time! And please share the finished piece whenever it's ready. I don't care if it's 10 days or 100 days from now.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> Nice summary. And the great thing is that these libraries allow for the control required to do that with the CC data.
> 
> Did you pretty much stay close to the eq settings that you originally shared with us? I've been using those to good effect but curious if your changed anything subsequently



I just checked my old post, apparently I changed them a bit. Especially the trombone is quite different, and it made a huge difference in the perceived power and clarity of the trombone. I have been lazy but I think I really should use a separate EQ for bass trombones, too. 

Horns I changed the EQ too, but I'm not sure I've settled on how I want to EQ the horns in my template yet.

I'll post updated screenshots of EQ settings later today or tomorrow when I have the chance!


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> I just checked my old post, apparently I changed them a bit. Especially the trombone is quite different, and it made a huge difference in the perceived power and clarity of the trombone. I have been lazy but I think I really should use a separate EQ for bass trombones, too.
> 
> Horns I changed the EQ too, but I'm not sure I've settled on how I want to EQ the horns in my template yet.
> 
> I'll post updated screenshots of EQ settings later today or tomorrow when I have the chance!


This would be MOST gratefully received.


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> I'll post updated screenshots of EQ settings later today or tomorrow when I have the chance!



Please do! Can't wait!


----------



## El Buhdai

Oh, and we gotta make sure @doctoremmet heard that demo! It has to be included on that list. 😄


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> This would be MOST gratefully received.





El Buhdai said:


> Please do! Can't wait!



Attached screenshots of the EQ settings which match the music I had before.

Mic mixes: main + ambient mozarteum on all instruments, and trumpets I also had close mics on.

FYI as mentioned before, I think horn EQ can still be improved a bit, maybe needs to be warmer, or maybe I just need to increase the overall level relative to everything else in the mix. Need to experiment.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Attached screenshots of the EQ settings which match the music I had before.
> 
> Mic mixes: main + ambient mozarteum on all instruments, and trumpets I also had close mics on.
> 
> FYI as mentioned before, I think horn EQ can still be improved a bit, maybe needs to be warmer, or maybe I just need to increase the overall level relative to everything else in the mix. Need to experiment.


Absolute legend. Thank you. 
Due to my laptop being a slow as shit piece of shit, I'd want to try to get a mix going just on the mix mics (because I also have sample modeling strings running so I reckon my CPU would feel the strain). I'll see if this eq can also have application to the mix mic setup. If not, may just activate the app mics as you have done


----------



## Terry93D

@aaronventure, given the circumstances, that is, the pandemic, is the Infinite Strings still planned for a 2020 release? I have been contemplating getting a new strings library, but don't wish to spend unnecessary money if a better option is coming along later this year.


----------



## Batrawi

I rarely feel the urge to eq the IB instruments, except maybe for the trumpets as they sound as if they have a cup/mute modulation going on, no matter how I try to mess with the eq or try to tame the high frequencies...they still seem to be very sensitive to dynamics and can quickly sound too sharp & lose their body as soon as I move the modwheel up. I notice that Trumpet#4 though has more of a body and less of this issue compared to the other trumpets.. but still overall, I would be happy to see a boost in tone/warmth for all trumpets in the future. 

The way I like to use IB generally, is by making it studio-dry sounding (not bone-dry), then apply my own reverb. The way I do that is by 1)selecting the studio reverb 2)select mic mix#1 then 3)go into the effects and turn the "early" reflection all the way up, and the "late" all the way down. This overall make the instruments sound full and warm in a dry environment which can be ready to use as is in things like pop/jazz, but can also respond well to your own algo reverb if you to add deapth & tail for cinematic or orchestral sound


----------



## Batrawi

Terry93D said:


> @aaronventure, given the circumstances, that is, the pandemic, is the Infinite Strings still planned for a 2020 release? I have been contemplating getting a new strings library, but don't wish to spend unnecessary money if a better option is coming along later this year.


Aaron seems to be a perfectionist. so I assume the 2020 release date on the web site should be accurate (as long as it says so or until changed in case of unexpected circumstances). So just don't give Aaron the option or the impression that we are ready to wait more than that. Let's keep pretending that we are waiting patiently and politely without putting stress on him


----------



## TGV

I like music said:


> Absolute legend. Thank you.
> Due to my laptop being a slow as shit piece of shit, I'd want to try to get a mix going just on the mix mics (because I also have sample modeling strings running so I reckon my CPU would feel the strain). I'll see if this eq can also have application to the mix mic setup. If not, may just activate the app mics as you have done


Try mic mix 5; it's got the least amount of close, I think.


----------



## I like music

TGV said:


> Try mic mix 5; it's got the least amount of close, I think.


Ah, that's a very good point. Thanks!


----------



## El Buhdai

Batrawi said:


> I rarely feel the urge to eq the IB instruments, except maybe for the trumpets as they sound as if they have a cup/mute modulation going on, no matter how I try to mess with the eq or try to tame the high frequencies...they still seem to be very sensitive to dynamics and can quickly sound too sharp & lose their body as soon as I move the modwheel up. I notice that Trumpet#4 though has more of a body and less of this issue compared to the other trumpets.. but still overall, I would be happy to see a boost in tone/warmth for all trumpets in the future.
> 
> The way I like to use IB generally, is by making it studio-dry sounding (not bone-dry), then apply my own reverb. The way I do that is by 1)selecting the studio reverb 2)select mic mix#1 then 3)go into the effects and turn the "early" reflection all the way up, and the "late" all the way down. This overall make the instruments sound full and warm in a dry environment which can be ready to use as is in things like pop/jazz, but can also respond well to your own algo reverb if you to add deapth & tail for cinematic or orchestral sound



Agree on the trumpets. The bite is amazing. Please keep that bite at the highest dynamics, but the problem is just... said bite comes in too soon along the dynamics chain and unless you lower the dynamic range slider, move the trumpets closer, and/or do some clever EQ, I haven't found many ways to get the trumpets to sound really warm when I need to. But hey, it's much better than having trumpets that had barely any bite (at least compared to 1.4) like the ones in 1.3. It's easier to ease back on bite and brightness than to try and add bite to instruments that just aren't powerful enough.


----------



## aaronventure

Batrawi said:


> no matter how I try to mess with the eq or try to tame the high frequencies...they still seem to be very sensitive to dynamics and can quickly sound too sharp & lose their body as soon as I move the modwheel up.


You can assign multiple controllers to the Dynamics slider. Say you have multiple faders/controllers available or can change programs on your keyboard to re-assign your modwheel on the fly. You can map CC2 to Dynamics. You can then head over to the MIDI Automation tab on the left side of Kontakt, find that control under CC2 and set its upper limit to 93-96%. Now CC2 is only scaling for that percentage and when you open it fully, it won't push the Dynamics slider all the way up. 

You can think of this as your "soft" slider and use that when you definitely don't want to go all the way to _fff_, but still want to have the option to go loud. Use it interchangeably, because whichever one is received last will set the Dynamics (i.e. don't use CC1 if using CC2 and vice-versa).



Terry93D said:


> @aaronventure, given the circumstances, that is, the pandemic, is the Infinite Strings still planned for a 2020 release? I have been contemplating getting a new strings library, but don't wish to spend unnecessary money if a better option is coming along later this year.


COVID didn't interfere with the Strings schedule, only with Percussion, Ethnic Winds expansion and the addition of the fourth space/large 1600+ seat concert venue.


----------



## Terry93D

Sampling God Aaron Venture said:


> COVID didn't interfere with the Strings schedule, only with Percussion, Ethnic Winds expansion and the addition of the fourth space/large 1600+ seat concert venue.


That is wonderful to hear and thank you so much Aaron.  I'll hold off on any purchases until Infinite Strings arrives.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> You can assign multiple controllers to the Dynamics slider. Say you have multiple faders/controllers available or can change programs on your keyboard to re-assign your modwheel on the fly. You can map CC2 to Dynamics. You can then head over to the MIDI Automation tab on the left side of Kontakt, find that control under CC2 and set its upper limit to 93-96%. Now CC2 is only scaling for that percentage and when you open it fully, it won't push the Dynamics slider all the way up.
> 
> You can think of this as your "soft" slider and use that when you definitely don't want to go all the way to _fff_, but still want to have the option to go loud. Use it interchangeably, because whichever one is received last will set the Dynamics (i.e. don't use CC1 if using CC2 and vice-versa).
> 
> 
> COVID didn't interfere with the Strings schedule, only with Percussion, Ethnic Winds expansion and the addition of the fourth space/large 1600+ seat concert venue.



Super exciting to hear! I absolutely promise that you mentioning the words "Strings schedule" will not result in someone on this forum saying "...so you know the schedule. Please could we also know the schedule?"

Because saying "CAN YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?" is kind of rude and also presumptuous. So I am begging everyone on this forum, please don't say the words "AARON, COULD YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?" because that would sound ungrateful.

Lets just enjoy the brass and winds for now, and not say things like AARON, COULD YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?

It could get tiresome. So one last time. Please, no one ask about the strings or say "AARON,COULD YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?"


----------



## x-dfo

I like music said:


> Super exciting to hear! I absolutely promise that you mentioning the words "Strings schedule" will not result in someone on this forum saying "...so you know the schedule. Please could we also know the schedule?"
> 
> Because saying "CAN YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?" is kind of rude and also presumptuous. So I am begging everyone on this forum, please don't say the words "AARON, COULD YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?" because that would sound ungrateful.
> 
> Lets just enjoy the brass and winds for now, and not say things like AARON, COULD YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?
> 
> It could get tiresome. So one last time. Please, no one ask about the strings or say "AARON,COULD YOU PLEASE SHARE THE SCHEDULE?"


The last thing you want to do is give forum fanatics a deadline to stick to.


----------



## TGV

x-dfo said:


> The last thing you want to do is give forum fanatics a deadline to stick to.


Why? What could go wrong?


----------



## shawnsingh

I'm still stuck on Infinite Brass.

I finally got around to trying small bits of growl on trombones and horns. It works great. A little bit of growl to top off a sharp attack or an aggressive crescendo (ideally a slightly different amount of growl on different instruments, some with no growl at all) really adds a gratifying nasty tone. But it has to be done with very subtle amounts of growl.

Another trick which makes trumpets sound great as a unison ensemble is actually vibrato. I've set up my template so that each trumpet has slightly different vibrato rate, and I attached CC2 to vibrato depth. This works great for each trumpet as a soloist, but also has an added effect of making the trumpet section sound a little bit more like an ensemble - that subtle chorus-like effect comes out gloriously when pushing the vibrato depth to about 40% (I don't know for sure but I think it would be important that vibrato rate is slightly different for each player for this to work)

As an added bonus, I found that it's possible to get a wonderful Mexican (corrected, not Spanish) trumpet style pushing vibrato depth and dynamics both to 100%. Just try doing that with a mordent-ish embellishment in upper-mid register of the trumpet, and enjoy =)


----------



## vicontrolu

Thx for the tips shawnsings!

I guess you meant Mexican trumpet, not Spanish.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> I'm still stuck on Infinite Brass.
> 
> I finally got around to trying small bits of growl on trombones and horns. It works great. A little bit of growl to top off a sharp attack or an aggressive crescendo (ideally a slightly different amount of growl on different instruments, some with no growl at all) really adds a gratifying nasty tone. But it has to be done with very subtle amounts of growl.
> 
> Another trick which makes trumpets sound great as a unison ensemble is actually vibrato. I've set up my template so that each trumpet has slightly different vibrato rate, and I attached CC2 to vibrato depth. This works great for each trumpet as a soloist, but also has an added effect of making the trumpet section sound a little bit more like an ensemble - that subtle chorus-like effect comes out gloriously when pushing the vibrato depth to about 40% (I don't know for sure but I think it would be important that vibrato rate is slightly different for each player for this to work)
> 
> As an added bonus, I found that it's possible to get a wonderful spanish trumpet style pushing vibrato depth and dynamics both to 100%. Just try doing that with a mordent-ish embellishment in upper-mid register of the trumpet, and enjoy =)



Nice. I read somewhere that in trumpet ensembles, the 1st trumpet sometimes added vibrato (to taste) in strategic parts of phrases that generally didn't have vibrato. I think it was the Cinesamples Retro Trumpets page which mentioned this, when referring to the 90s trumpets and JW scores. I tried it myself it only one trumpet, and found that it added a lovely depth when I would push this higher towards the end of phrases. I'll try with all of them and see what happens.


----------



## shawnsingh

vicontrolu said:


> Thx for the tips shawnsings!
> 
> I guess you meant Mexican trumpet, not Spanish.



Mexican, yes! I thought this sound also existed in Spain but seems that was wrong.


----------



## oceanic714

Just threw together a little demo using only Infinite Brass, no external eq or reverb. It sounds surprisingly good by itself! Definitely can go far with a bit of tweaking.


----------



## aaronventure

oceanic714 said:


> Just threw together a little demo using only Infinite Brass, no external eq or reverb. It sounds surprisingly good by itself! Definitely can go far with a bit of tweaking.



This is nice! One advice I have is to take all the CC1 and velocity down by about 25. It'll sound much more musical. If you blow your load too early with _fff,_ you're reducing the impact of it later on.


----------



## oceanic714

aaronventure said:


> This is nice! One advice I have is to take all the CC1 and velocity down by about 25. It'll sound much more musical. If you blow your load too early with _fff,_ you're reducing the impact of it later on.


Yes, in hindsight I've noticed quite a bit that I can do to squeeze more realism out of it. As a brass musician myself I'll admit this would get exhausting quite fast...

Very excited to spend hours with the library!


----------



## RogiervG

aaronventure said:


> If you blow your load too early...




sorry couldn't help myself...


----------



## vicontrolu

Some fun with a midi file from the internet. I spent VEY little time with it, basically some minor tweaks on velocities here and there and setting up the trombone1 patch to sound very close, as in the original mix. I compressed a tad though with MJUC.

With more time spent tweaking i think it can sound really good and its deifnitely a nice improvement for out of the box sound, compared to Samplemodelling. No need to speak about the phrasing capabilities.

Excuse the crappy GM sound for the rest of the instruments


----------



## vicontrolu

Today I ve been creating ensembles with horns,trpts and bones an comparing to Caspian and to my surprise they sound as good or even better at fff ! 

Btw, and dont get angry at me for asking this, is there any teaser somewhere about the strings that maybe I ve missed?


----------



## doctoremmet

vicontrolu said:


> Btw, and dont get angry at me for asking this, is there any teaser somewhere about the strings that maybe I ve missed?


No worries, there is nothing you might have missed and we’re not angry


----------



## aaronventure

vicontrolu said:


> is there any teaser somewhere about the strings that maybe I ve missed


Yeah, I'd love to hear it as well!


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Yeah, I'd love to hear it as well!



You can't just drop comments like that and disappear.

Come on!


----------



## vicontrolu

Daammn..fun stuff! I just got tired of listening to the performance and continue tweaking but you can kinda copy literally each note/articulation just with the velocity and modwheel.

Congrats Aaron, i think this is a remarkable library.


----------



## AlainTH

is that a clarinet?


----------



## vicontrolu

No, its a piano


----------



## shawnsingh

It's actually an MP3.


----------



## RogiervG

it's data


----------



## I like music

Sound hitting your ears


----------



## doctoremmet

RogiervG said:


> it's data


To be more precise: it’s data that is visually represented by graphical data on your screen depicting a file folder icon, that can be interacted with in order to stream other data (in mp3 format) to an audio player, then making audible a piano, and a clarinet.


----------



## Denkii

Without knowing if that was an honest question because maybe the person who posted it didn't read the file's name - I feel like this escalated quickly.
What a wonderful and lovely place this is. I missed it when it was down yesterday.


----------



## doctoremmet

Hey guys. Since we’re amongst equals here, things are escalating off-topic anyway, and I know y’all have EXCELLENT taste. Any love for Ben Osterhouse’s stuff around here? I just created this new thread here and it would be lovely if you could spam it with loads and loads of Ben Osterhouse chamber strings pieces, of course ideally with liberal sprinkles of IB and IW on top. (I promise to finish my job on collecting any and all Infinite demos soon!)






The Ben Osterhouse (appreciation) thread


So it appears that the cosmos is ready for the music world to infuse lots of Ben Osterhouse string libraries in their compositions. Not that long ago I became aware of his excellent instruments. I went on and got Sospiro Strings, Viola da Gamba and English Bass. But there are more libraries...




vi-control.net


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> To be more precise: it’s data that is visually represented by graphical data on your screen depicting a file folder icon, that can be interacted with in order to stream other data (in mp3 format) to an audio player, then making audible a piano, and a clarinet.



So old school. I printed the 0s and 1s, and read the data that way. Judging by what I read, it was a piano, and a clarinet.


----------



## AlainTH

doctoremmet said:


> To be more precise: it’s data that is visually represented by graphical data on your screen depicting a file folder icon, that can be interacted with in order to stream other data (in mp3 format) to an audio player, then making audible a piano, and a clarinet.


a piano yes, a clarinet no


----------



## AlainTH

and this sounding is disapointing. i have already several woodwinds and brass libraries, (i use principally berlin legacy, several spitfire, csb and jxl) but i was interested by the 'playability' of the infinite series, for make quick 'rushes' explore ideas ... but the sounds i can hear in demos doesn't convince me ... for the moment, i keep an eye...


----------



## I like music

AlainTH said:


> and is is disapointing. i have already several woodwinds and brass libraries but i was interested by the 'playability' of the infinite series, for make quick 'rushes' explore ideas ... but the sounds i can hear in demos doesn't convince me... for the moment...



Hey Alain. I think the woodwinds can definitely improve in tone. Aaron has said so much himself. Have you been following the Brass updates for example? Aaron released 4 significant updates, and the tone of the brass instrument ended up being significantly better than the original release.

Keep an eye on these, since I expect there will be improvements to the woodwinds too (in terms of tone).


----------



## dadadave

AlainTH said:


> and is is disapointing. i have already several woodwinds and brass libraries, (i use principally berlin legacy, several spitfire, csb and jxl) but i was interested by the 'playability' of the infinite series, for make quick 'rushes' explore ideas ... but the sounds i can hear in demos doesn't convince me ... for the moment, i keep an eye...



Check out the demos on the website, and youtube videos (I remember there's a good review or first look video on infinite woodwinds. I'm not sure the midi programming of the clarinet/piano-piece quite takes advantage of all the library can do (no offense to whomever programmed this particular piece!).


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## doctoremmet

AlainTH said:


> a piano yes, a clarinet no


Sorry to have disappointed you with my joke. Thanks for correcting it! 😘


----------



## doctoremmet

dadadave said:


> I remember there's a good review or first look video on infinite woodwinds.


Yes that's likely Cory Pelizzari’s review. But if you don’t like it and are happy with your current libraries, maybe wait for v1.2, like you suggest yourself and keep an eye out for that. As for the playability, I can hardly ever go back to (arguably better sounding) libraries, because of the amount of after-care they need... so the playability leaves nothing to be desired really...


----------



## vicontrolu

dadadave said:


> Check out the demos on the website, and youtube videos (I remember there's a good review or first look video on infinite woodwinds. I'm not sure the midi programming of the clarinet/piano-piece quite takes advantage of all the library can do (no offense to whomever programmed this particular piece!).



None taken! Those snippets I posted are just me grabbing a midi file and doing very quick and simple modifications on the velocity/cc1. These are not programmed in detail and just proof of how easily and super fast you can get phrasing to work really well with this library. Tone wise, in the woodwind, there are better alternatives imo.

Having said that, I dare you guys to improve the clarinet bit  Maybe we all can learn to use the library from each other (I just got it a few days ago).


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## juliansader

Who else would be excited about Aaron releasing…
INFINITE CLASSICAL SAXOPHONES!

Infinite Woodwinds and Brass cover jazz saxophones and most of the orchestral woodwinds, except for one glaring omission: classical saxophones.

In fact, there is not even a single classical saxophone library yet by any developer, so Infinite Classical Saxophones will be unique, and can be a flagship product for Aaron.

Classical saxophones comprise the full family of soprano, alto, tenor and baritone (and others), but the soprano is by far the most commonly used, and often replaces the oboe in covers of classical music, so if the entire family is too big an untertaking, a single library of the classical soprano sax would have many thankful users.

Classical saxophones have such a beautiful sound:


----------



## El Buhdai

juliansader said:


> Who else would be excited about Aaron releasing…
> INFINITE CLASSICAL SAXOPHONES!
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds and Brass cover jazz saxophones and most of the orchestral woodwinds, except for one glaring omission: classical saxophones.
> 
> In fact, there is not even a single classical saxophone library yet by any developer, so Infinite Classical Saxophones will be unique, and can be a flagship product for Aaron.
> 
> Classical saxophones comprise the full family of soprano, alto, tenor and baritone (and others), but the soprano is by far the most commonly used, and often replaces the oboe in covers of classical music, so if the entire family is too big an untertaking, a single library of the classical soprano sax would have many thankful users.
> 
> Classical saxophones have such a beautiful sound:




We already have Altos, Tenors, and Basses in Infinite Woodwinds. If Aaron wants to add Sopranos then I suspect we'd have the kind of library you're requesting. He could even separate Infinite Woodwinds from Infinite Saxophones but price them both so that they cost the same as the current Infinite Woodwinds when bought together. Though I suspect that last part wouldn't be a popular idea and definitely wouldn't be something Aaron is likely to do given his aggressively pro-consumer business practices.


----------



## juliansader

The saxophones currently in Infinite Woodwinds are jazz saxophones, which are a very different beast than classical saxophones.


----------



## El Buhdai

juliansader said:


> The saxophones currently in Infinite Woodwinds are jazz saxophones, which are a very different beast than classical saxophones.



I didn't know that!


----------



## RogiervG

juliansader said:


> The saxophones currently in Infinite Woodwinds are jazz saxophones, which are a very different beast than classical saxophones.


how so? there are saxes, with all types of playing techniques a sax can do (dynamics, vibrato control, etc etc etc). its up to the player /performer to make it do "classical" or not. the only type of sax hat is missing is the soprano sax. sure, there are no demos of clasical usage of these saxes, but that doesnt mean they cannot be used in a classical setting.


----------



## juliansader

Classical saxes are not only played with a different embouchure, they are *physically* different: they use a narrower mouthpiece and a bore with less taper. The resulting sound is much cleaner and mellower than the raucous, raspy jazz saxes. (The videos that I linked to above demonstrate the sound of classical saxes beautifully.)

Classical saxophones and jazz saxophones may share the same name, but are wholly different instruments.


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## RogiervG

if it is how you stated: i don't think there is a good market for them (too niche), otherwise there would be plenty of classical sax libraries available, just like the other classical instruments are represented in big numbers.


----------



## I like music

For now, I'm most excited about classical strings.


----------



## Bollen

juliansader said:


> Classical saxes are not only played with a different embouchure, they are *physically* different: they use a narrower mouthpiece and a bore with less taper. The resulting sound is much cleaner and mellower than the raucous, raspy jazz saxes. (The videos that I linked to above demonstrate the sound of classical saxes beautifully.)
> 
> Classical saxophones and jazz saxophones may share the same name, but are wholly different instruments.


As a saxophone player I must thoroughly disagree. Sure, there's a particular school of classical saxophone that shares a certain (not very pleasant) philosophy of sound, but it's certainly not universal in the classical world. In terms of jazz however, there are hundreds of different sounds and techniques: from the Stan Getz spectrum, through the 50s/60s mainstream, all the way to the Brecker/Sanborn spectrum. Those are truly different animals! But the "mainstream" middle of the road sound is pretty much the same in both classical and jazz. The actual instruments are exactly the same, there's no such thing as "classical" saxophone. As previously stated it's how it's played that makes the difference (the great legends of classical saxophone played the same mouthpieces and sax brands/models as the jazz legends).

Now in terms of your needs (and as proof of what I just said), VSL has the whole family of saxophones, including a soprano, and they sampled a "classical" player. However, the library can also do jazz and other styles (perhaps not funk and pop), albeit not as well as a library devoted exclusively to that end.


----------



## AlainTH

i use saxos of Glory days Orchestral tools, Baryton Alto and Tenor.


----------



## juliansader

Bollen said:


> As a saxophone player I must thoroughly disagree. Sure, there's a particular school of classical saxophone that shares a certain (not very pleasant) philosophy of sound, but it's certainly not universal in the classical world. ... The actual instruments are exactly the same, there's no such thing as "classical" saxophone. As previously stated it's how it's played that makes the difference (the great legends of classical saxophone played the same mouthpieces and sax brands/models as the jazz legends).



I don't understand how a saxophone player can write this. "Classical" and "jazz" are standard, internationally understood terms used by every saxophonist and session player I have ever worked with, and used by major saxophone and mouthpiece manufacturers in their catalog descriptions and model names to denote intended timbres. Most professional session players own multiple mouthpieces and one of the very first questions they always ask is: "what kind of mouthpiece should I use?"

I don't know what is currently "mainstream" in your corner of the world, nor why you call some school of classical saxophone "not very pleasant", but that is irrelevant to my suggestion for a classical saxophone library.


----------



## Bollen

juliansader said:


> I don't understand how a saxophone player can write this. "Classical" and "jazz" are standard, internationally understood terms used by every saxophonist and session player I have ever worked with, and used by major saxophone and mouthpiece manufacturers in their catalog descriptions and model names to denote intended timbres. Most professional session players own multiple mouthpieces and one of the very first questions they always ask is: "what kind of mouthpiece should I use?"
> 
> I don't know what is currently "mainstream" in your corner of the world, nor why you call some school of classical saxophone "not very pleasant", but that is irrelevant to my suggestion for a classical saxophone library.


Of course dear Julian, you're absolutely correct about the terms and the players asking about "what mouthpiece". But as I said in my post, it's not about jazz Vs classical. Technically speaking it's about brightness (high baffle or low baffle mouthpiece). So-called jazz or classical tend to use dark or medium, pop and funk almost exclusively bright. Joe Henderson (a jazz legend) used a classical mouthpiece and I've met many classical player that use Otto Links, the most common mouthpiece in jazz. And before modern mouthpieces (say late 50s) everybody used the same thing pretty much.

It's a very complicated subject full of technicalities and difficult to discuss with non-players. It doesn't help that manufacturers play into the "myths" with marketing terminology that is just false. For composers and producers I always just recommend to think dark Vs bright, everything else is up to the player to produce (breathy, edgy, dirty, growly, etc) and all saxophones can/do play every style, it's only mouthpieces that make a difference.

PS: did you look into the VSL libraries?


----------



## Geocranium

juliansader said:


> Classical saxes are not only played with a different embouchure, they are *physically* different: they use a narrower mouthpiece and a bore with less taper. The resulting sound is much cleaner and mellower than the raucous, raspy jazz saxes. (The videos that I linked to above demonstrate the sound of classical saxes beautifully.)
> 
> Classical saxophones and jazz saxophones may share the same name, but are wholly different instruments.



I've been playing the saxophone for 15 years now and this is news to me. I didn't have any kind of different hardware for when I played jazz vs classical in college, and neither did my instructors. The difference was in style, technique, and attitude. I used the same Jody Jazz hard rubber mouthpiece for both Bach inventions and real book playing.


----------



## Bollen

A great example of this "mainstream", neutral sound is the one found on John Williams main theme for Catch Me If You Can. 

Notice how he/she simply changes the inflections and tonguing and suddenly it's "jazz"!


----------



## Brian Nowak

I would be ecstatic if somebody made a super high quality wind ensemble with percussion and piano all recorded in the same room. There's a lot of wind band music I'd love to write. I assume saxophone is also very difficult to sample properly. Because frankly, all the sampled saxophones I've heard pretty much suck.


----------



## Bollen

Brian Nowak said:


> I would be ecstatic if somebody made a super high quality wind ensemble with percussion and piano all recorded in the same room. There's a lot of wind band music I'd love to write. I assume saxophone is also very difficult to sample properly. Because frankly, all the sampled saxophones I've heard pretty much suck.


Saxophone is indeed extremely hard to sample! Not only does it have the biggest dynamic range of any woodwind, but unlike brass, it also has a huge timber change. It's a bit like the human voice in its ability to play a note in literary thousands of ways, all of which generates uniquely different acoustic stamps.

May I ask why you would want them recorded in the same room? Doesn't that limit the usability of the library, in terms of compatibility with other libraries or the type of production you're making?


----------



## oceanic714

Okay, I've spent more time with the Infinite series. The instruments sound particularly good under ff, and alternating between legato and double/triple tonguing is wonderful without having to use a keyswitch.

Here's an excerpt of a piece that I'm working on using Infinite Brass/Woodwinds, Berlin Strings, and Sample Modeling Strings.


----------



## shawnsingh

oceanic714 said:


> Okay, I've spent more time with the Infinite series. The instruments sound particularly good under ff, and alternating between legato and double/triple tonguing is wonderful without having to use a keyswitch.
> 
> Here's an excerpt of a piece that I'm working on using Infinite Brass/Woodwinds, Berlin Strings, and Sample Modeling Strings.



love it - which IR setting and mic mix did you use? Any other processing on top?


----------



## shawnsingh

Oh and enjoyed the composition too. I want to see the movie now.


----------



## oceanic714

shawnsingh said:


> love it - which IR setting and mic mix did you use? Any other processing on top?


I used the studio IR for all instruments, and turned all mics up. Valhalla Room was applied to all instruments. I used Sonar's panning to give each instrument some width.

The built-in room positioning is great for avoiding that synth-sounding effect that you can get by stacking instruments on top of each other, and I find the randomized tuning and articulations are great for recreating real performers. Even professional musicians are susceptible to inconsistent performance quality. 



shawnsingh said:


> Oh and enjoyed the composition too. I want to see the movie now.


No movie, just something that I threw together the other day. I'm fairly new to the media composition scene.


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## shawnsingh

Yeah that's what I like about your mix too, the precise localization. This motivated me to give the studio IRs a try some time soon!


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## juliansader

Bollen said:


> Of course dear Julian, you're absolutely correct about the terms and the players asking about "what mouthpiece". But as I said in my post, it's not about jazz Vs classical. Technically speaking it's about brightness (high baffle or low baffle mouthpiece).



The term "Classical" refers to more than just brightness. Perhaps the three most important characteristics are 1) pure, dark, mellow sound that 2) blends well with other symphonic winds — woodwinds as well as brass — and that 3) keeps a consistent timbre throughout the pitch and dynamic range.




Bollen said:


> It's a very complicated subject full of technicalities and difficult to discuss with non-players. ... For composers and producers I always just recommend to think dark Vs bright, everything else is up to the player to produce (breathy, edgy, dirty, growly, etc)



I recommend that composers know their instruments much more intimately than just dark vs bright, and should give detailed indications of articulations. This is also relevant to the Infinite Classical Saxophones sample library: Since classical saxophones are used most often as exposed, virtuoso instruments, the library will need to be very detailed, with extensive dynamic layers and articulations.




Bollen said:


> PS: did you look into the VSL libraries?



I only know the VSL library by its demos, but I don't enjoy the sound of the demos at all (to put it mildly). At soft dynamics, the timbre isn't bad, but it quickly gets "honking" when the dynamics get louder. Given that all the demos have the same timbre, I expect that it is inherent in the library, and not just due to a deliberate choice by the demo composers.




Bollen said:


> A great example of this "mainstream", neutral sound is the one found on John Williams main theme for Catch Me If You Can.



I suggested a Classical Saxophone library. If you prefer another timbre, you are welcome to suggest it for another library.




Geocranium said:


> I didn't have any kind of different hardware for when I played jazz vs classical in college, and neither did my instructors. The difference was in style, technique, and attitude. I used the same Jody Jazz hard rubber mouthpiece for both Bach inventions and real book playing.



This is beside the point. I can play flamenco on my electric guitar, or even Concierto de Aranjuez, but that doesn't change the commonly accepted meanings of "flamenco guitar" and "classical guitar". Did you manage to produce a beautifully pure sound that blended well with other symphonic winds and that kept a consistent timbre throughout the range? If yes, then good, you are a remarkable player. It not, you should consider expanding your tonal palette with different mouthpieces. Whatever the case may be, the only question that is relevant to this thread, is whether there is any sample library that can produce this classical timbre.

I'm not going to argue nomenclature any further. Anyone (including sax players) who wish to learn more about the amazing, beautiful classical saxophone can Google or read Wikipedia. If you Google "classical saxophone", you will find on your first page of results:
Why Saxophonists Need A Jazz and A Classical Saxophone Mouthpiece
Count Basie vs Glazunov: Why Saxophonists Need a Jazz and Classical Mouthpiece

Yamaha musical instrument guide: Jazz saxophones and classical saxophones
Vandoren: A Sound You Can Hear: Tom Walsh Explains the Difference Between Jazz and Classical Saxophone Setups


----------



## DivingInSpace

Guys, you might wanna move the sax discussion somewhere else, it is a shame that it clogs up a thread that can be super helpfull to new Infinite users and/or people looking into the libraries. It is already hard to navigate as is.


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## El Buhdai

juliansader said:


> The term "Classical" refers to more than just brightness. Perhaps the three most important characteristics are 1) pure, dark, mellow sound that 2) blends well with other symphonic winds — woodwinds as well as brass — and that 3) keeps a consistent timbre throughout the pitch and dynamic range.



At that point, I suspect "Classical" saxophones could just be implemented in a similar manner to the mutes in Infinite Brass. Some people could be purists and say that emulating it is not the same as having actual "classical" saxophones, but it's not like sampling separate saxophones for this would be a good use of time or money because most of the raw samples in both libraries just sound like primitive sine/saw waves (almost none of the character of the instruments is carried through to the samples, but is instead added later using convolution, advanced math, filtering, etc.), and if any of us were purists, we wouldn't be using half-modeled instruments. 

The Infinite Brass mutes are generally quite good considering they're just simulated with convolution iirc. I think the existing Infinite Woodwinds saxophones could have a setting that allows you to simulate either kind and still have it sound quite nice!

I agree with DivingInSpace though, I don't wanna cloud this space with that discussion. Figured it would be okay to post this given that my comment relates directly to the library though. Sorry if this message still bugs anyone.


----------



## ned3000

Just picked up Infinite Woodwinds the other day. It's good. The "no keyswitch" thing actually works pretty well. I found the tone comparable in quality to BWW (although that's subjective to some degree). The large selection of instruments is nice too (really like having alto+bass flute), even including jazz and/or classical saxophones.

After playing in some parts with that library, it's kind of jarring to go back to something with a bunch of keyswitches. Seems like a big hassle.

There are some quirks. I haven't quite figured out the best way to control vibrato yet. It's possible to get some fake sounding legato transitions, but that's entirely based on how it's played; it's not difficult to get nice legato either.


----------



## I like music

ned3000 said:


> Just picked up Infinite Woodwinds the other day. It's good. The "no keyswitch" thing actually works pretty well. I found the tone comparable in quality to BWW (although that's subjective to some degree). The large selection of instruments is nice too (really like having alto+bass flute), even including jazz and/or classical saxophones.
> 
> After playing in some parts with that library, it's kind of jarring to go back to something with a bunch of keyswitches. Seems like a big hassle.
> 
> There are some quirks. I haven't quite figured out the best way to control vibrato yet. It's possible to get some fake sounding legato transitions, but that's entirely based on how it's played; it's not difficult to get nice legato either.


Got the Brass? If you like the winds you'll love the Brass!


----------



## I like music

ned3000 said:


> Just picked up Infinite Woodwinds the other day. It's good. The "no keyswitch" thing actually works pretty well. I found the tone comparable in quality to BWW (although that's subjective to some degree). The large selection of instruments is nice too (really like having alto+bass flute), even including jazz and/or classical saxophones.
> 
> After playing in some parts with that library, it's kind of jarring to go back to something with a bunch of keyswitches. Seems like a big hassle.
> 
> There are some quirks. I haven't quite figured out the best way to control vibrato yet. It's possible to get some fake sounding legato transitions, but that's entirely based on how it's played; it's not difficult to get nice legato either.


I've found that I use a lot of detache and control the velocity to recreate a sort of retonguing. So half my legato is done by NOT overlapping the notes. Have you tried this with IW? works very well imo


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## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Got the Brass? If you like the winds you'll love the Brass!



Yes, I second this. The brass is quickly becoming one of my favorite libraries period. I always thought Euphoniums were the awkward middle child of orchestral brass that can do the job of the french horns in some cases and the trombones in others, but without its own clear identity. Infinite Brass has opened my eyes to the fun of the euphoniums and helped me realize that its ability to play with everything from the tuba to the horn section is what makes it so useful!

Not to mention the bite on those new trumpets and the excellent sense of depth and spacing on all instruments. That's all without even considering the convenience of their expressiveness and lack of keyswitches. I can't wait for IW 1.2 because if the incredible overhauls of IB 1.4 are any indication of what we might get, I think we're in for a real treat.

TL;DR - Get the brass!


----------



## oceanic714

I like music said:


> I've found that I use a lot of detache and control the velocity to recreate a sort of retonguing. So half my legato is done by NOT overlapping the notes. Have you tried this with IW? works very well imo


This is a pretty effective solution, coupled with occaisionally editing the lengths of the notes after recording them.



ned3000 said:


> There are some quirks. I haven't quite figured out the best way to control vibrato yet.


Not sure if it's in your budget, but assigning vibrato to a breath controller is very effective and satisfying during real-time playing. I will try to put out a YT video demonstrating this with the Infinite series.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Yes, I second this. The brass is quickly becoming one of my favorite libraries period. I always thought Euphoniums were the awkward middle child of orchestral brass that can do the job of the french horns in some cases and the trombones in others, but without its own clear identity. Infinite Brass has opened my eyes to the fun of the euphoniums and helped me realize that its ability to play with everything from the tuba to the horn section is what makes it so useful!
> 
> Not to mention the bite on those new trumpets and the excellent sense of depth and spacing on all instruments. That's all without even considering the convenience of their expressiveness and lack of keyswitches. I can't wait for IW 1.2 because if the incredible overhauls of IB 1.4 are any indication of what we might get, I think we're in for a real treat.
> 
> TL;DR - Get the brass!


I've only got one brass library on my computer now. IB... 

Those trumpets are insanely good. The rest too. But the trumpet improvement was just stratospheric!


----------



## I like music

oceanic714 said:


> This is a pretty effective solution, coupled with occaisionally editing the lengths of the notes after recording them.
> 
> 
> Not sure if it's in your budget, but assigning vibrato to a breath controller is very effective and satisfying during real-time playing. I will try to put out a YT video demonstrating this with the Infinite series.


Aye. I like the library's sensitivity to note-off or note length (variation). Love fiddling with those lengths.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Aye. I like the library's sensitivity to note-off or note length (variation). Love fiddling with those lengths.



It's great because when you release a note in many other libraries, you just get a fairly abrupt fade-out. At best, you get a release sample, but there are only so many releases you get with sampled releases. With Infinite though, it seems like you can alter note length by a few milliseconds and get a noticeable difference in performance. It's so great.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Damn. wishing I bought this in the sale. Been working on a mock-up where Infinite Brass would've made it so much easier and better.


----------



## Max Bonsi

Hi Folks!
Since a few days I'm in the family with my copy of Infinite Woodwinds!
What a wonderful library...
Stay Safe!


Max


----------



## Terry93D

Man, I sure do hope those Infinite Strings come out soon, 'cause it's a struggle not to go and purchase LASS Lite or the VSTBuzz EWQL Scoring Package deal...


----------



## I like music

Max Bonsi said:


> Hi Folks!
> Since a few days I'm in the family with my copy of Infinite Woodwinds!
> What a wonderful library...
> Stay Safe!
> 
> 
> Max


You're only a stepchild until you also buy the Brass. Welcome anyway!


----------



## I like music

Terry93D said:


> Man, I sure do hope those Infinite Strings come out soon, 'cause it's a struggle not to go and purchase LASS Lite or the VSTBuzz EWQL Scoring Package deal...


Hold off! Hold off! They'll be worth it.


----------



## Max Bonsi

I like music said:


> You're only a stepchild until you also buy the Brass. Welcome anyway!


Thank u!
I know, you're right
The fact is I'm evaluating it 'cause I already have the full SM Brass...
but I'm very very tempted by IB


----------



## vicontrolu

I feel like IB is the evolution of Samplemodelling. No more messing with IRs, Eqs and comps to get a decent sound. And, ofcourse, no keyswitches


----------



## oceanic714

vicontrolu said:


> I feel like IB is the evolution of Samplemodelling. No more messing with IRs, Eqs and comps to get a decent sound. And, ofcourse, no keyswitches


One thing that I believe SM has over IB is better sounding legato. But that issue is solved through some post-recording editing.

With SM I have yet to get an entire ensemble sounding like true individual musicians. IB corrects this with its variations of pitch and articulation.


----------



## goalie composer

oceanic714 said:


> One thing that I believe SM has over IB is better sounding legato. But that issue is solved through some post-recording editing.


I'm strongly considering purchasing IB. Would you mind clarifying this a little bit more? Is the legato not very good in IB or do you need to do something specific when programming legato to smooth it out?
Thanks for your input!


----------



## El Buhdai

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Damn. wishing I bought this in the sale. Been working on a mock-up where Infinite Brass would've made it so much easier and better.



How so? I'm curious.


goalie composer said:


> I'm strongly considering purchasing IB. Would you mind clarifying this a little bit more? Is the legato not very good in IB or do you need to do something specific when programming legato to smooth it out?
> Thanks for your input!



As a former horn player, I personally find the legato on those instruments to be pretty solid. I'm decently familiar with the trumpet sound too and I think the trumpets are done well too. The trombones may be a little too sterile in the legato department (and a little too clean and pitch-perfect overall to be honest). 

For the horns specifically, I know you can achieve that dramatic, sort of sucking-style legato as the instrument swings between two notes. You simply have to quickly bump up the modwheel right before a transition and ride it down directly after. This works because of the continuous dynamics and overall responsiveness of the instruments. I've tried that a couple times on the trumpets as well. As for the others, I haven't really tried it.

If you're not looking for that dramatic, flashy legato, you can do a more subtle version just by knowing when to use velocities in a specific range, as well as knowing when to do a retonguing style of legato by relying on the release of a note and leaving a very small gap between notes. Infinite, for better or for worse depending on your tastes, really benefits from you shaping your own phrases.


----------



## I like music

oceanic714 said:


> One thing that I believe SM has over IB is better sounding legato. But that issue is solved through some post-recording editing.
> 
> With SM I have yet to get an entire ensemble sounding like true individual musicians. IB corrects this with its variations of pitch and articulation.



IB brass is my favourite library. However, the legatos on SM do sound beautiful. That would be the only reason for me to purchase them, in addition. How do you solve the issue through post-recording editing?


----------



## oceanic714

I like music said:


> IB brass is my favourite library. However, the legatos on SM do sound beautiful. That would be the only reason for me to purchase them, in addition. How do you solve the issue through post-recording editing?


I occaisionally leave too much space between notes in a legato phrase, so I have to go back and edit note lengths to correct this.


----------



## I like music

oceanic714 said:


> I occaisionally leave too much space between notes in a legato phrase, so I have to go back and edit note lengths to correct this.


Got it, makes sense.


----------



## Bollen

oceanic714 said:


> One thing that I believe SM has over IB is better sounding legato. But that issue is solved through some post-recording editing.
> 
> With SM I have yet to get an entire ensemble sounding like true individual musicians. IB corrects this with its variations of pitch and articulation.


I don't have any of Aaron's libraries so I rather not comment on a comparison, but I do have all of SM and I can tell you they can be extremely realistic to the point of fooling real players. There are some tricks you have to use that mimic the real instruments. It involves riding the pitchbend and dynamics a lot.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

shawnsingh said:


> OK so it's becoming clear that this piece will not be finished any time soon - too many other priorities taking over. So instead, here's the first minute and half, where I did finish orchestrating and programming the brass at least. It's 100% Infinite Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, the rest of the piece is going to be more of the same anyway. There's a good chance I won't be able to make the composition climax and arc the way I'm hoping. In retrospect, I made a mistake focusing my initial sketch too much on the brass. So now I cornered myself into the awkward process of fishing for ways to fit strings and woodwinds into the piece as an afterthought, and it's not going very well in that way.
> 
> Also, I don't think the the brass and strings are sitting well together in the mix, something is off. But I can't pinpoint how to improve it. So mix suggestions would be very welcome and appreciated!
> 
> But what REALLY matters in this thread - this library has exceeded my expectations and I don't have the right words to express how thrilled I am! I doubt that any other current library can accomplish this degree of controllable nuance and character while still sounding realistic and having a sane workflow. This is really a sweet spot among all the different ways to design orchestral virtual instruments. Thank you Aaron for such a wonderful brass library!



Wow! Wow! This track should be among the audio demos on the official website. Great composition, sound and performance! Bravo!
*Infinite Series* - is definitely starting to get my attention more and more.


----------



## oceanic714

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Wow! Wow! This track should be among the audio demos on the official website. Great composition, sound and performance! Bravo!
> *Infinite Series* - is definitely starting to get my attention more and more.


I second this. The writing is very exposed, yet the instruments have so much life to them. Well done shawnsingh!


----------



## shawnsingh

Wow, thanks! Glad that you enjoyed it.

I've been spending a few minutes whenever I can, finishing the rest of the piece, but I think it will still take many more months because of other priorities. I'll share it on this thread when it's done!


----------



## oceanic714

I cannot get enough of how nimble these instruments are! My day flew by........thanks to the Infinite series.


----------



## Terry93D

This is by no means either the best thing ever written, or the best thing I've ever written, but this track uses the Infinite series: 




Infinite Woodwinds
Infinite Brass
Versilian Studios Chamber Orchestra 2 (percussion, Harp 1)
Best Service Complete Orchestral Collection, String Essentials (strings)
Kontakt Factory Library (Harp 2)


----------



## I like music

Found some money on the floor in the street. I wanted to go to the police station or the bank, to hand it in, like any good citizen should do. But then I had a change of heart, and thought about what I could buy with the money I had found.

I then started hearing this whisper (you know how The Ring whispers to Frodo?). It was probably Sauron (or whatever) and I think it kept saying "Infinite Rings" which makes no sense, because we know that Sauron didn't create an infinite amount of rings.

Wait a minute. Maybe it wasn't Sauron, and maybe he wasn't talking about rings.

I got it! Infinite Strings. That's what I kept hearing in the whispers.

Anyone know where I can get some?


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Found some money on the floor in the street. I wanted to go to the police station or the bank, to hand it in, like any good citizen should do. But then I had a change of heart, and thought about what I could buy with the money I had found.
> 
> I then started hearing this whisper (you know how The Ring whispers to Frodo?). It was probably Sauron (or whatever) and I think it kept saying "Infinite Rings" which makes no sense, because we know that Sauron didn't create an infinite amount of rings.
> 
> Wait a minute. Maybe it wasn't Sauron, and maybe he wasn't talking about rings.
> 
> I got it! Infinite Strings. That's what I kept hearing in the whispers.
> 
> Anyone know where I can get some?


These recent NI and 8dio solo instruments are like rings that I kind of want to put on my fingers, but you know... like Frodo I just KNOW I need to resist my urge and be strong. I. Need. To. Save. Up. For. Infinite. Powers......


----------



## Terry93D

I, too, struggle to wait. Placing my hands underneath my ass, and acting not, doing not. 'Tis troublesome, yet worthwhile.


----------



## vicontrolu

But..shouldn't the woodwind update come before the strings? Just trying to manage my own expectations here


----------



## I like music

vicontrolu said:


> But..shouldn't the woodwind update come before the strings? Just trying to manage my own expectations here



Oh yeah, I think that may be the case, cannot remember! Actually, personally yes I'm hoping that the woodwinds update comes first.


----------



## Batrawi

Terry93D said:


> I, too, struggle to wait. Placing my hands underneath my ass, and acting not, doing not. 'Tis troublesome, yet worthwhile.


that's a great method actually! and if you ever took your hands out by mistake, smell them so that you get them back in place immediately.


----------



## DANIELE

I think that we will see the strings in the fall or even winter...this is just my opinion.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I think that we will see the strings in the fall or even winter...this is just my opinion.



Would love to see the woods before then if at all possible. To get them into the same hall/IR space as the brass would be fantastic, and any timbre improvements would also be super welcome.


----------



## aaronventure

vicontrolu said:


> But..shouldn't the woodwind update come before the strings? Just trying to manage my own expectations here


In my world, updating released products takes priority over releasing new ones . Especially since it's an IB 1.4 level of quality jump.

Woodwinds are coming together nicely. More than halfway there; saxes and flutes are left.


----------



## decredis

aaronventure said:


> In my world, updating released products takes priority over releasing new ones . Especially since it's an IB 1.4 level of quality jump.


Much as I'm keen to see the strings, I really appreciate this attitude... many developers would rather make some quick new money off a new product than perfect one that's already selling.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Would love to see the woods before then if at all possible. To get them into the same hall/IR space as the brass would be fantastic, and any timbre improvements would also be super welcome.



Based on what Aaron said up here I think we could expect the woodwinds update after the summer (he will need vacation too) and maybe fall. So the strings could shift to 2021.


----------



## vicontrolu

aaronventure said:


> In my world, updating released products takes priority over releasing new ones . Especially since it's an IB 1.4 level of quality jump.



I think everybody should live in this world!



aaronventure said:


> Woodwinds are coming together nicely. More than halfway there; saxes and flutes are left.



Great! I also like the confidence saying its up to IB 1.4 update. Thats some serious statement!!


----------



## vicontrolu

Excuse me if that has been done already (76 pages are a lot for me to read through!) but wouldnt it be great to have a multiscript that sets all the Aaron Venture instruments inside a kontakt instance to the same hall preset? It would include a UI with the 3 sliders + the toggle for mixed mics + the 5 mixed options.

I´ve been going back and forth between marching band and orchestral arangements and this would have been very useful. Actually i am thinking to use only studio close position and do the placement/hall outside the instruments, but the truth is the convolution reverbs included with the instruments sound quite good. It would be a pity not to use them!

I guess its a fairly simple script to do, provided all the instruments are reacting to the same MIDI ccs (perhaps that can also be set in the multiscript?).


----------



## Batrawi

vicontrolu said:


> Excuse me if that has been done already (76 pages are a lot for me to read through!) but wouldnt it be great to have a multiscript that sets all the Aaron Venture instruments inside a kontakt instance to the same hall preset? It would include a UI with the 3 sliders + the toggle for mixed mics + the 5 mixed options.
> 
> I´ve been going back and forth between marching band and orchestral arangements and this would have been very useful. Actually i am thinking to use only studio close position and do the placement/hall outside the instruments, but the truth is the convolution reverbs included with the instruments sound quite good. It would be a pity not to use them!
> 
> I guess its a fairly simple script to do, provided all the instruments are reacting to the same MIDI ccs (perhaps that can also be set in the multiscript?).


you mean something like LASS stage & color? That'd be cool! But could be like a reverse engineering in the Infifinite series ecosystem where there is a lot going on under the hood... I'm no scripter but just my guess.... In all cases you can still create snapshots/custom patches for studio setting/orchestral setting etc... no?


----------



## aaronventure

vicontrolu said:


> Excuse me if that has been done already (76 pages are a lot for me to read through!) but wouldnt it be great to have a multiscript that sets all the Aaron Venture instruments inside a kontakt instance to the same hall preset? It would include a UI with the 3 sliders + the toggle for mixed mics + the 5 mixed options.
> 
> I´ve been going back and forth between marching band and orchestral arangements and this would have been very useful. Actually i am thinking to use only studio close position and do the placement/hall outside the instruments, but the truth is the convolution reverbs included with the instruments sound quite good. It would be a pity not to use them!
> 
> I guess its a fairly simple script to do, provided all the instruments are reacting to the same MIDI ccs (perhaps that can also be set in the multiscript?).


You can do it with any controller.

If you don't have any free controllers, any DAW that can do expression maps can also do it. And then you don't have to be opening Kontakt. I have a control track in my template that's sending MIDI to all Infinite Brass tracks and on that control track I have set up expression maps for different rooms. It's just sending CC 30, that's all.

I don't actually necessarily want all of the instruments with the same mic mix every time, so select Mixed Mic per-instrument.

But if you really want a multiscript, here. I'll take a beer 


Code:


on init
  set_script_title("Infinite Series - Space & Mix")
  set_ui_height(4)

  declare $i

  declare ui_label $title(4, 1)
  set_text($title,"Infinite Series - Space & Mix")
  move_control($title,2,1)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($title),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)

  declare ui_button $studio
  set_text($studio,"Studio")
  move_control($studio,2,2)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($studio),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  make_persistent($studio)

  declare ui_button $bersa
  set_text($bersa,"Bersa Hall")
  move_control($bersa,3,2)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($bersa),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  make_persistent($bersa)

  declare ui_button $mozarteum
  set_text($mozarteum,"Mozarteum")
  move_control($mozarteum,4,2)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mozarteum),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  make_persistent($mozarteum)

  declare ui_button $largehall
  set_text($largehall,"Large Hall")
  move_control($largehall,5,2)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($largehall),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  make_persistent($largehall)

  declare ui_button $mixedmic
  set_text($mixedmic,"Mixed Mic")
  move_control($mixedmic,4,4)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,120)
  make_persistent($mixedmic)

  declare ui_button $mixedmic1
  set_text($mixedmic1,"1")
  move_control_px($mixedmic1,276,85)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic1),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic1),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,20)
  make_persistent($mixedmic1)

  declare ui_button $mixedmic2
  set_text($mixedmic2,"2")
  move_control_px($mixedmic2,301,85)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic2),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic2),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,20)
  make_persistent($mixedmic2)

  declare ui_button $mixedmic3
  set_text($mixedmic3,"3")
  move_control_px($mixedmic3,326,85)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic3),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic3),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,20)
  make_persistent($mixedmic3)

  declare ui_button $mixedmic4
  set_text($mixedmic4,"4")
  move_control_px($mixedmic4,351,85)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic4),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic4),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,20)
  make_persistent($mixedmic4)

  declare ui_button $mixedmic5
  set_text($mixedmic5,"5")
  move_control_px($mixedmic5,376,85)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic5),$CONTROL_PAR_TEXT_ALIGNMENT,1)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic5),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,20)
  make_persistent($mixedmic5)

  declare ui_value_edit $space_ccnum(1, 127, 1)
  $space_ccnum := 30
  set_text($space_ccnum,"Space")
  move_control($space_ccnum,2,7)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($space_ccnum),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,100)
  make_persistent($space_ccnum)

  declare ui_value_edit $mixedmic_ccnum(1, 127, 1)
  $mixedmic_ccnum := 63
  set_text($mixedmic_ccnum,"MM Switch")
  move_control($mixedmic_ccnum,4,7)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic_ccnum),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,100)
  make_persistent($mixedmic_ccnum)

  declare ui_value_edit $mixedmic_slider_ccnum(1, 127, 1)
  $mixedmic_slider_ccnum := 25
  set_text($mixedmic_slider_ccnum,"MM Slider")
  move_control($mixedmic_slider_ccnum,6,7)
  set_control_par(get_ui_id($mixedmic_slider_ccnum),$CONTROL_PAR_WIDTH,100)
  make_persistent($mixedmic_slider_ccnum)
end on

on ui_control($studio)
  if ($studio=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$space_ccnum,15)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $bersa := 0
    $mozarteum := 0
    $largehall := 0
  else
    $studio := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($bersa)
  if ($bersa=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$space_ccnum,45)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $studio := 0
    $mozarteum := 0
    $largehall := 0
  else
    $bersa := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($mozarteum)
  if ($mozarteum=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$space_ccnum,75)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $studio := 0
    $bersa := 0
    $largehall := 0
  else
    $mozarteum := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($largehall)
  if ($largehall=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$space_ccnum,110)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $studio := 0
    $bersa := 0
    $mozarteum := 0
  else
    $largehall := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($mixedmic)
  if ($mixedmic=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$mixedmic_ccnum,100)
      inc($i)
    end while
  else
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$mixedmic_ccnum,0)
      inc($i)
    end while
  end if
end on

on ui_control($mixedmic1)
  if ($mixedmic1=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$mixedmic_slider_ccnum,1)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $mixedmic2 := 0
    $mixedmic3 := 0
    $mixedmic4 := 0
    $mixedmic5 := 0
  else
    $mixedmic1 := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($mixedmic2)
  if ($mixedmic2=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$mixedmic_slider_ccnum,30)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $mixedmic1 := 0
    $mixedmic3 := 0
    $mixedmic4 := 0
    $mixedmic5 := 0
  else
    $mixedmic2 := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($mixedmic3)
  if ($mixedmic3=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$mixedmic_slider_ccnum,60)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $mixedmic1 := 0
    $mixedmic2 := 0
    $mixedmic4 := 0
    $mixedmic5 := 0
  else
    $mixedmic3 := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($mixedmic4)
  if ($mixedmic4=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$mixedmic_slider_ccnum,85)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $mixedmic1 := 0
    $mixedmic2 := 0
    $mixedmic3 := 0
    $mixedmic5 := 0
  else
    $mixedmic4 := 1
  end if
end on

on ui_control($mixedmic5)
  if ($mixedmic5=1)
    $i := 0
    while ($i<=63)
      set_midi($i,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,$mixedmic_slider_ccnum,110)
      inc($i)
    end while
    $mixedmic1 := 0
    $mixedmic2 := 0
    $mixedmic3 := 0
    $mixedmic4 := 0
  else
    $mixedmic5 := 1
  end if
end on







Now, I've switched the order of spaces in Infinite Brass 1.4 (it made sense to have Studio be the lowest CC value) and that's how it's gonna be in Infinite Woodwinds 1.2. However, at the moment, in Infinite Woodwinds 1.1 it's the other way around (and, obviously, not the same names). So if you want to use the multiscript with that library until the update drops, just change the names of the spaces (look for set_text and change the string inside " " to whatever you want).

The fourth one I've just labeled Large Hall so when I'm finally able to record and add in the fourth space, the label can be changed.


----------



## Wenlone

vicontrolu said:


> Excuse me if that has been done already (76 pages are a lot for me to read through!) but wouldnt it be great to have a multiscript that sets all the Aaron Venture instruments inside a kontakt instance to the same hall preset? It would include a UI with the 3 sliders + the toggle for mixed mics + the 5 mixed options.
> 
> I´ve been going back and forth between marching band and orchestral arangements and this would have been very useful. Actually i am thinking to use only studio close position and do the placement/hall outside the instruments, but the truth is the convolution reverbs included with the instruments sound quite good. It would be a pity not to use them!
> 
> I guess its a fairly simple script to do, provided all the instruments are reacting to the same MIDI ccs (perhaps that can also be set in the multiscript?).



I made a basic multiscript while ago, i am working on more advanced version with features like auto-divisi and cluster builder. But i am still experimenting, needs time.

This is basically duplicates midi data to selected channels.


----------



## Batrawi

Wenlone said:


> I made a basic multiscript while ago, i am working on more advanced version with features like auto-divisi and cluster builder. But i am still experimenting, needs time.
> 
> This is basically duplicates midi data to selected channels.


is it possible to consider a "vibrato fade-in time" controller in this multiscript (if not there already)?


----------



## shawnsingh

So it is true? In Ireland, beer is used as currency?


----------



## Wenlone

Batrawi said:


> is it possible to consider a "vibrato fade-in time" controller in this multiscript (if not there already)?



There is no "vibrato fade-in time" controller in this multiscript. But new version that i am working on will have humanization features including vibrato fade-in time.


----------



## vicontrolu

Damn, that was fast! Thanks Aaron and Wenlone! I´ll give these a try


----------



## vicontrolu

aaronventure said:


> But if you really want a multiscript, here. I'll take a beer



Hey Aaron! I realized horns dont change when you select the different mix positions and also, for the rest of the brasses, number 5 mix doesnt change on any of them either. Thanks a lot!

EDIT: I have fixed it by adding 127 as the value sent by the "5" button on the script and replacing CC32 with CC25 as the control for the mixed mics slider in the horns, like the rest of the brass instruments.



Wenlone said:


> I made a basic multiscript while ago, i am working on more advanced version with features like auto-divisi and cluster builder. But i am still experimenting, needs time.



Thats awesome Wenlone. If you consider adding support for the mixed mics let us know 


For anyone using Reaper, i found quite convenient to have all of your brass family instruments in 1 track/kontakt instance. Here´s how i do it:

1. Assign each instrument to a different channel nside Kontakt (horn1 chn1, horn2 chn2, etc)
2. Turn on legato bypass on the first instrument in channel 1 (at this point i saved the track as a track template).
3. Create the arrangement using chords (only the first instrument will sound, polyphonically)
4. Once you have the arrangement ready run an action call a script called: kawa_MIDI_AssignChannelFromChordTone_Near (that basically routes every midi note to a different channel)
5. TaDAA! Your kontakt instance will now play each note with each instrument on each channel (multiple legato lines) and you keep the all the horns arrangement on a single sequence. 


Of course there are corner cases and i keep a separate track for unison, but i kinda prefer that since i can EQ a tad here and there. Also that script doesnt work well with fast tempos but i am working on another script to fix this (this will also turn off the legato bypass on the first instrument).


I am curious, any other Reaper users using Infinite series? Do you have a better workflow?

Cheers!


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> In my world, updating released products takes priority over releasing new ones . Especially since it's an IB 1.4 level of quality jump.
> 
> Woodwinds are coming together nicely. More than halfway there; saxes and flutes are left.



Wow, you work at the speed of sound for a one-man army! Last time we got a message about the woodwinds, only the oboes were done. Can't wait for the update and thank you so much for taking such good care of us (read: spoiling us). I can't wait to show my support when Infinite Strings comes out!


----------



## vicontrolu

I am working in some staccatisimo pattern with the trombones and i realized some of the tones were not sounding natural enough because the length of the MIDI notes was simply too short. 

Wouldn´t it make sense to add a toggle to the UI that sets a minimum note length? I guess a threshold exisist in a non-VI scenario due to the physical qualities of the instrument and the player, like you cant produce a note under 20ms or something similar.


----------



## Supremo

vicontrolu said:


> Hey Aaron! I realized horns dont change when you select the different mix positions and also, for the rest of the brasses, number 5 mix doesnt change on any of them either. Thanks a lot!
> 
> EDIT: I have fixed it by adding 127 as the value sent by the "5" button on the script and replacing CC32 with CC25 as the control for the mixed mics slider in the horns, like the rest of the brass instruments.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats awesome Wenlone. If you consider adding support for the mixed mics let us know
> 
> 
> For anyone using Reaper, i found quite convenient to have all of your brass family instruments in 1 track/kontakt instance. Here´s how i do it:
> 
> 1. Assign each instrument to a different channel nside Kontakt (horn1 chn1, horn2 chn2, etc)
> 2. Turn on legato bypass on the first instrument in channel 1 (at this point i saved the track as a track template).
> 3. Create the arrangement using chords (only the first instrument will sound, polyphonically)
> 4. Once you have the arrangement ready run an action call a script called: kawa_MIDI_AssignChannelFromChordTone_Near (that basically routes every midi note to a different channel)
> 5. TaDAA! Your kontakt instance will now play each note with each instrument on each channel (multiple legato lines) and you keep the all the horns arrangement on a single sequence.
> 
> 
> Of course there are corner cases and i keep a separate track for unison, but i kinda prefer that since i can EQ a tad here and there. Also that script doesnt work well with fast tempos but i am working on another script to fix this (this will also turn off the legato bypass on the first instrument).
> 
> 
> I am curious, any other Reaper users using Infinite series? Do you have a better workflow?
> 
> Cheers!


I'm using Reaper and do struggle with fast passages as the IWW doesn't respond quite well to the fast playing, unfortunately. Eager to see what script you can come up with.


----------



## shawnsingh

vicontrolu said:


> I am working in some staccatisimo pattern with the trombones and i realized some of the tones were not sounding natural enough because the length of the MIDI notes was simply too short.
> 
> Wouldn´t it make sense to add a toggle to the UI that sets a minimum note length? I guess a threshold exisist in a non-VI scenario due to the physical qualities of the instrument and the player, like you cant produce a note under 20ms or something similar.



For extremely short staccatissississimo notes:
Personally I think it's a feature that this happens, because it helps remind us that extremely short notes can't be as loud, but players can technically play so short that the sound doesn't even come out.

For short staccatissimo notes that should work realistically:
I feel like I was able to get super short notes as extreme as I needed. One possible thing to try: short notes with low CC dynamic setting can sound different than short notes with higher CC dynamic. I found that keeping CC higher made trombone staccatissimo sound more "correct" because it does take a few short milliseconds for that bite to kick in, and that's not part of the note-velocity attack. I know in theory that the library is set up so that note velocity affects attack, and CC affects sustained dynamics, but I've found that sculpting and trial-and-error with CC dynamics actually makes a big difference on attacks, and it's nice to have that second dimension of sculpting ability. I do agree this is a little awkward quirk of the library, but I actually appreciate it because I know that I would be able to sculpt other types of note attack when CC dynamics are low, and that flexibility is very useful.

One more thought - sometimes these very agile short passages have too much lag to feel "playable". If you take a leap of faith and try to program / post-edit the MIDI after recording it, you might find that it actually is realistic, it's just the feedback when playing isn't great because of the lag. At least for me, this has been true for many libraries including IB.

What do you think?


----------



## I like music

Curious about what attack time settings people have on their Infinite libraries.


----------



## vicontrolu

shawnsingh said:


> I found that keeping CC higher made trombone staccatissimo sound more "correct" because it does take a few short milliseconds for that bite to kick in, and that's not part of the note-velocity attack.



That´s exactly what i figured out last night! I had to lower my velocites and bring up CC1 to get something more realistic.

I attach an audio file including IB + session horns and also the MIDI data i used for IB. Session horns couldnt crossfade to a higher, more raspyu layer so they stay quite dull throughout the line. On the IB take, i can still hear how some lengths need to be increased to get a more natural sound, imo.


CC+velocity tweaking however dont change the fact that i think it would be very nice to not have to worry about note lengths when they are too short. I dont know, in my opinion, with all of the "plug´n´play" playability of this amazing library, i think it would be quite easy to at least add the option. 



shawnsingh said:


> If you take a leap of faith and try to program / post-edit the MIDI after recording it, you might find that it actually is realistic, it's just the feedback when playing isn't great because of the lag



Nah i dont think it was that. Iits 99% me not nowing how to use the library properly yet.


----------



## vicontrolu

Supremo said:


> I'm using Reaper and do struggle with fast passages as the IWW doesn't respond quite well to the fast playing, unfortunately. Eager to see what script you can come up with.



You mean using the Kawa script to send each note to a different channel? I tested yesterday again and had no issues with it. If you send me the midi file i can give it a go.


----------



## El Buhdai

Supremo said:


> I'm using Reaper and do struggle with fast passages as the IWW doesn't respond quite well to the fast playing, unfortunately. Eager to see what script you can come up with.



I noticed with 1.4 there's a slightly longer delay in the instruments' response to MIDI. It even broke a fast line I wrote for a solo muted trumpet in one of my projects.


----------



## Dmitry

Hello, Here mostly discuss IB. There is almost no examples of IW.
Maybe will can anyone do beginning of this composition?  or something like that.


----------



## I like music

Dmitry said:


> Hello, Here mostly discuss IB. There is almost no examples of IW.
> Maybe will can anyone do beginning of this composition?  or something like that.




Got a MIDI file?  
I can only read one note per minute (if reading from a score)


----------



## Dmitry

I like music said:


> Got a MIDI file?
> I can only read one note per minute (if reading from a score)


I found only for piano =) http://www.kunstderfuge.com/-/midi.asp?file=ravel_tombeau_de_couperin_1_(c)oguri.mid


----------



## vicontrolu

Found an orchestral one: http://www.el-atril.com/midis/Ravel/ravtomb1.mid

I wont dare..


----------



## I like music

vicontrolu said:


> Found an orchestral one: http://www.el-atril.com/midis/Ravel/ravtomb1.mid
> 
> I wont dare..



Shit. I said MIDI because I was sure no one would be able to find one.
Now I'm seriously considering it ...


----------



## ned3000

Dmitry said:


> Hello, Here mostly discuss IB. There is almost no examples of IW.
> Maybe will can anyone do beginning of this composition?  or something like that.




I started listening to this and was thinking damn, IW sounds better than I thought. I don't think I'm using it to its full potential. Kind of freaked me out, then I realized it was a *request* for a mockup.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Dmitry said:


> Hello, Here mostly discuss IB. There is almost no examples of IW.
> Maybe will can anyone do beginning of this composition?  or something like that.



I only quickly skimmed over you comment, thought it was a mock-up using IW and almost had a heart attack lol


----------



## vicontrolu

Ok guys, PLEASE...dont post such amazing music again and ask for mockups, really.. 

Jokes aside, its a very good exercise to know the library and i am glad i spent some minutes on this. Take aways:

- I am certainly missing a more beautiful legato, generally speaking
- Some of the very fast legatos play just fine with no overlapping (no legato)
- For fast detache notes in the middle of a phrase having low CC and high velocity works better (unlike the brasses wich seemed to work better the other way around)
- I think the library does really good on this type of passages with relatively few effort (i could have gone waaaay longer on this: there´s no vibrato added anywhere, velocities could be tweaked further, etc.)

Its the medium Hall, witht the default settings for the mixer, no effects anywhere but the limiter on the master.


----------



## I like music

vicontrolu said:


> Ok guys, PLEASE...dont post such amazing music again and ask for mockups, really..
> 
> Jokes aside, its a very good exercise to know the library and i am glad i spent some minutes on this. Take aways:
> 
> - I am certainly missing a more beautiful legato, generally speaking
> - Some of the very fast legatos play just fine with no overlapping (no legato)
> - For fast detache notes in the middle of a phrase having low CC and high velocity works better (unlike the brasses wich seemed to work better the other way around)
> - I think the library does really good on this type of passages with relatively few effort (i could have gone waaaay longer on this: there´s no vibrato added anywhere, velocities could be tweaked further, etc.)
> 
> Its the medium Hall, witht the default settings for the mixer, no effects anywhere but the limiter on the master.



Very nice! Apart from one or two instances in the legato, I loved it. Like you said, with low effort you can get these sorts of results. In terms of phrasing, this effort already beats out 99% of libraries. Also apart from some tonal issues I actually think the tone of this library isn't too bad either. Thanks for adding this here.

Interesting to note the difference between the two libraries in terms of velocity and cc. I looked at one of my projects (ET - Adventures on Earth which I was mocking up) and guess what? Without realising I've also done the same thing on shorts. Brass has CC up, winds have CC down.


----------



## Dmitry

vicontrolu said:


> Ok guys, PLEASE...dont post such amazing music again and ask for mockups, really..
> 
> Jokes aside, its a very good exercise to know the library and i am glad i spent some minutes on this. Take aways:
> 
> - I am certainly missing a more beautiful legato, generally speaking
> - Some of the very fast legatos play just fine with no overlapping (no legato)
> - For fast detache notes in the middle of a phrase having low CC and high velocity works better (unlike the brasses wich seemed to work better the other way around)
> - I think the library does really good on this type of passages with relatively few effort (i could have gone waaaay longer on this: there´s no vibrato added anywhere, velocities could be tweaked further, etc.)
> 
> Its the medium Hall, witht the default settings for the mixer, no effects anywhere but the limiter on the master.


Thanks!!! Sounds convincing, but still I would like to hear how sounds if get the most of IW.  
btw if you saved the project could you pls rendering it with the large hall with minimum of close mics.


----------



## vicontrolu

Dmitry said:


> btw if you saved the project could you pls rendering it with the large hall with minimum of close mics.



Sure. This is the mix. You can get more room if you want, boosting that last fader (spot fader is muted).









Dmitry said:


> Sounds convincing, but still I would like to hear how sounds if get the most of IW



I am sure the demos on the website would be the thing to listen to then.

It took a bit more than an hour to do these 4 instruments and that included a bunch of midi message cleaning from the MIDI file, setting the instruments, etc. Have in mind it was the first time i worked on something complex with this WWs so i wasnt particularly fast.
Its a pity i havent Berlin WWs here to run this same test although i can see the process being quite more frustrating with that library


----------



## x-dfo

very nice! I cannot wait for IW 1.4! they're so much fun to play!


----------



## DANIELE

x-dfo said:


> very nice! I cannot wait for IW 1.4! they're so much fun to play!



The next IW update should be 1.2


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> The next IW update should be 1.2



It'll say 1.2 on the tin, but It'll say 1.4 out of the speakers.


----------



## El Buhdai

x-dfo said:


> very nice! I cannot wait for IW 1.4! they're so much fun to play!



My biggest wish is that the bassoons, english horn, saxes, and especially flutes get a good overhaul. I would love to be able to finally have believable flute runs without having to dip back into Hollywood Orchestra


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> It'll say 1.2 on the tin, but It'll say 1.4 out of the speakers.


It'll say 2.0 out of the speakers


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> It'll say 2.0 out of the speakers



Aaron casually appears on this thread once every few weeks just to pour more petrol on the fire. Don't say things like this! I can't take it.

When's it happening? That's what I want to know!!!


----------



## doctoremmet

@Batrawi I have managed to still be sitting on my hands.

NI Stradivari: nope
Tableau strings: nope
Other OT cello thingy: nope
8dio Deep Solo Violin: nope
Spitfire whatever it may be called: nope

First (and likely last) string library is going to be Infinite Strings!

(I did buy the new Westwood ALT Piano which is lovely, but Infinite Piano has not been announced (yet) plus I had earned a reward for being such a good boy right?)


----------



## CT

vicontrolu said:


> Sure. This is the mix. You can get more room if you want, boosting that last fader (spot fader is muted).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure the demos on the website would be the thing to listen to then.
> 
> It took a bit more than an hour to do these 4 instruments and that included a bunch of midi message cleaning from the MIDI file, setting the instruments, etc. Have in mind it was the first time i worked on something complex with this WWs so i wasnt particularly fast.
> Its a pity i havent Berlin WWs here to run this same test although i can see the process being quite more frustrating with that library



This is an intriguing demo. I still have my reservations about these two libraries, but I'm just as eager as anyone else to see what updates will bring.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> @Batrawi I have managed to still be sitting on my hands.
> 
> NI Stradivari: nope
> Tableau strings: nope
> Other OT cello thingy: nope
> 8dio Deep Solo Violin: nope
> Spitfire whatever it may be called: nope
> 
> First (and likely last) string library is going to be Infinite Strings!
> 
> (I did buy the new Westwood ALT Piano which is lovely, but Infinite Piano has not been announced (yet) plus I had earned a reward for being such a good boy right?)



I actually feel quite happy about the state of things. For me, I want a virtual orchestra where a relatively cheap computer with little hard drive space and little RAM can be my orchestra.

One of the reasons I love these instruments (and sample modeling). I can basically get a 256gb hard drive and shove all my orchestra on there. And my computer doesn't need to be *amazing* to run all of it. To think that's where technology is these days. Amazing.


----------



## El Buhdai

Anyone else notice that Aaron has become quite a tease as of late?


----------



## Batrawi

doctoremmet said:


> @Batrawi I have managed to still be sitting on my hands.
> 
> NI Stradivari: nope
> Tableau strings: nope
> Other OT cello thingy: nope
> 8dio Deep Solo Violin: nope
> Spitfire whatever it may be called: nope
> 
> First (and likely last) string library is going to be Infinite Strings!
> 
> (I did buy the new Westwood ALT Piano which is lovely, but Infinite Piano has not been announced (yet) plus I had earned a reward for being such a good boy right?)


yep let's keep it up my friend! Even though I have to admit the itch is now killing me! Not that I'm going to buy another string library, but I was never in my life so excited about an anticipated string library as I am now, which makes me feel weak...
I wish Aaron could just release a quartet (he must have now 4 instruments ready out of those 60 pieces or so that he's recording) as something that can keep us patient and that we can upgrade from to the full library once ready


----------



## JoshuaM

I finally decided to dive into the woodwinds. I had a go at a short flute solo demonstration since that is one of the things I am using it for soon.


----------



## vicontrolu

One more. IB on the olympic fanfare by JW.

This time i set myself a 10m timer to work, when i had the midi file cleaned. (ok i might have worked a couple more minutes...)

I´d say its pretty good for that time! -only did trpts, horns and trbs - 

Have a nice weekedn y´all!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Aaron casually appears on this thread once every few weeks just to pour more petrol on the fire. Don't say things like this! I can't take it.
> 
> When's it happening? That's what I want to know!!!



He only meant 1.2.0


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> He only meant 1.2.0



That answers the _what_. We want the _when_. 😉


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> That answers the _what_. We want the _when_. 😉



2.0 is already the answer to that question, it contains all the answers.


----------



## Terry93D

aaronventure said:


> It'll say 2.0 out of the speakers


Hot damn.

I think I'm almost as excited for Winds 1.2 as for the Strings.


----------



## El Buhdai

Terry93D said:


> Hot damn.
> 
> I think I'm almost as excited for Winds 1.2 as for the Strings.



I'm more excited about the winds personally. Strings libraries are a dime a dozen but good woodwinds libraries are a dime a dozen. So many have fatal flawss Like who at Spitfire thought it was a good idea to omit the English Horn?!

Once the tone is where it could be, I reckon we'll have the best woodwinds library on the market.


----------



## vicontrolu

As for the strings..I wonder what will be the approach? How much is Aaron going to split the sections? Solo, divisi, ensemble?

My computer wont be a le to handle 16 first violins in a kontakt instance, for sure


----------



## El Buhdai

vicontrolu said:


> As for the strings..I wonder what will be the approach? How much is Aaron going to split the sections? Solo, divisi, ensemble?
> 
> My computer wont be a le to handle 16 first violins in a kontakt instance, for sure



I've gotten a lot of info from him about the strings publicly as well as some privately. He's said there will be soloists, ensemble patches, and extra surprises (which I won't mention here in case his plans have changed 😉). He's said the ensemble patches will be made up of solo instruments, but they will be ensemble *patches*, so I would assume you won't have to load those 16 instances of Kontakt for a symphonic 1st-violins section.

My guess is that he'll use some variation of the humanization functionality he added to Infinite Brass 1.4, but with more dramatic variation between instruments and combined into one patch.


----------



## vicontrolu

If this mesns he'll use mixdowns of the individual violins to create a single ensemble nki patch then I am down for it too. I am sure they'll sound fantastic 

If that's the approach to go, I cant help to question why he didn't provide ensemble patches for the wws and brass too. Perhaps in another update? Hah


----------



## ned3000

El Buhdai said:


> He's said the ensemble patches will be made up of solo instruments ...



Does that mean the string sections (like 1st. violins) will be made up of individual samples of (16?) solo violins? If so that seems like a pretty radical approach. Haven't heard of anyone doing that before.


----------



## Arthur Lewis

If I’m understanding correctly, I believe VSL Dimension Strings takes a similar approach.


----------



## Batrawi

ned3000 said:


> Does that mean the string sections (like 1st. violins) will be made up of individual samples of (16?) solo violins? If so that seems like a pretty radical approach. Haven't heard of anyone doing that before.


VSL, Chris Hein, SampleModeling (and probably more) have all used this approach.. so it's not uncommon.. heck it's already used in IB & IW that we've extensively been discussing throughout the dozens of pages in this very thread


----------



## decredis

aaronventure said:


> It'll say 2.0 out of the speakers


I suppose this (if taken seriously) has implications for Brass as well... if the Winds' sound has been improved *beyond* the 1.4 quality of the Brass... does that mean we also have a substantial improvement to the Brass sound to look forward to (is that even possible?).


----------



## Terry93D

decredis said:


> I suppose this (if taken seriously) has implications for Brass as well... if the Winds' sound has been improved *beyond* the 1.4 quality of the Brass... does that mean we also have a substantial improvement to the Brass sound to look forward to (is that even possible?).


Big if true.

No, but seriously. Until neural net-based instrument plugins are developed, the Infinite series may well become perhaps the finest sampled library out there, in terms of playability, flexibility, and tone.


----------



## Arthur Lewis

Terry93D said:


> the Infinite series may well become perhaps the finest sampled library out there, in terms of playability, flexibility, and tone.


I’ve been wondering about this. I don’t have many great orchestral instruments, and while I’d been thinking about starting my collection with VSL Special Edition, SM Brass, and SWAM Saxes, I’ve also been considering just waiting for Infinite Strings and starting with the resulting bundle.


----------



## El Buhdai

ned3000 said:


> Does that mean the string sections (like 1st. violins) will be made up of individual samples of (16?) solo violins? If so that seems like a pretty radical approach. Haven't heard of anyone doing that before.



I don't know if VI-C has an advanced thread search feature, but it's in here somewhere. If you could search the thread for all posts made by x user with y keyword, you could find the message where he mentioned that. Maybe he explained it more clearly than I did!


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> I don't know if VI-C has an advanced thread search feature, but it's in here somewhere. If you could search the thread for all posts made by x user with y keyword, you could find the message where he mentioned that. Maybe he explained it more clearly than I did!


Here it is, I think, at least I think this is the relevant post: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-4551532


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> Here it is, I think, at least I think this is the relevant post: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-4551532



That's exactly it!


----------



## Terry93D

And that is why I am so excited for the strings: divisi to the soloist level. That, combined with the presumably extensive repertoire of techniques and the magickal programming that Mr Venture does? I have been holding off for months for the Strings, and I will hold off some more. I do hope that the release date will be soon, but if it comes out the last day of December, then rest assured I will snap it up without a word of complaint regardless.


----------



## prodigalson

El Buhdai said:


> I'm more excited about the winds personally. Strings libraries are a dime a dozen but good woodwinds libraries are a dime a dozen. So many have fatal flawss Like who at Spitfire thought it was a good idea to omit the English Horn?!
> 
> Once the tone is where it could be, I reckon we'll have the best woodwinds library on the market.



which dedicated woodwind spitfire library omits the English horn? Both Studio woodwinds and symphonic woodwinds have one...


----------



## El Buhdai

prodigalson said:


> which dedicated woodwind spitfire library omits the English horn? Both Studio woodwinds and symphonic woodwinds have one...



I remember visiting the Studio Woodwinds page only to see that it's not listed in the included instruments. I've also seen someone else mention it on VI-C. I just checked the store page and it's still not listed in there. Maybe it doubles in the Oboes a3 patch? I can't find it listed in the store page. I certainly hope I'm either wrong or blind.

EDIT: I did another search halfway through writing this message. It's only in their $400 Studio Woodwinds Professional version. The base library doesn't get this instrument even though it's a standard part of the orchestral palette for woodwinds. At least it's included somewhere I guess.


----------



## prodigalson

El Buhdai said:


> I remember visiting the Studio Woodwinds page only to see that it's not listed in the included instruments. I've also seen someone else mention it on VI-C. I just checked the store page and it's still not listed in there. Maybe it doubles in the Oboes a3 patch? I can't find it listed in the store page. I certainly hope I'm either wrong or blind.
> 
> EDIT: I did another search halfway through writing this message. It's only in their $400 Studio Woodwinds Professional version. The base library doesn't get this instrument even though it's a standard part of the orchestral palette for woodwinds. At least it's included somewhere I guess.



Oh, I didn't realize that as I only use the pro version. Interesting that they only omitted the double reed doublers from the standard version; Eng Horn and Contrabassoon. The flute and single reed doublers are included. 

Also the Symphonic Woodwinds have it so it's only the standard version of the Studio Woodwinds that doesn't.


----------



## I like music

Shouldn't you be working on strings?


----------



## lljfnord

Hello! New owner of the Infinite Wind Ensemble Bundle here. I'm going to be using it with Cakewalk by Bandlab, and I was wondering if there were any tips buried within the thread or linked elsewhere for integrating the two smoothly. I'm more of a sequencer-style composer than a player, which is why I'm asking. Any pitfalls I need to be aware of? Thanks!


----------



## aaronventure

lljfnord said:


> Hello! New owner of the Infinite Wind Ensemble Bundle here. I'm going to be using it with Cakewalk by Bandlab, and I was wondering if there were any tips buried within the thread or linked elsewhere for integrating the two smoothly. I'm more of a sequencer-style composer than a player, which is why I'm asking. Any pitfalls I need to be aware of? Thanks!


The number one problem with sequencing is the fact that you _have_ _to _make each note a different duration (especially if you're doing shorts or repetitions). Infinite is accurate to a millisecond (it has to be in order for playing to feel good) and if you just click in repeated notes into a grid, it will do exactly that. It will definitely sound inhuman because there's just no way a horn player would ever play multiple notes with the exact same duration to a millisecond. Pitch differences, embouchure resonance etc. are taken care of for you. If you enable Humanize, timing and note velocity will be as well. But the actual note duration is the one thing you have to pay attention yourself.

Even if you're not much of a player (I'll assume you'll try and play lyrical phrases but would prefer to sequence faster ones), at least recording the notes themselves can help you get notes of different duration in real-time. You can then move them into place or even quantize them and as long as they don't have the exact same duration, you'll be fine.

If your sequencer can randomize note duration for a percentage, you're all good, just use that. If it doesn't, punching them in and in that way giving them a humanized duration is much, much faster than clicking them into the grid and then manually adjusting each one. It can be very time consuming when you have multiple tracks that you have to do this do, and have a piece with lots of short repetitions.

When dealing with multiple tracks: if it's buried in a mix and you're using Humanize (either inside the instrument or inside your MIDI editor), copy pasting/performing multiple at the same time will be fine. But if the line is exposed and the primary focus, your best bet is to give each its own parameters. Unique note lengths, unique velocities, unique CC1. Try both approaches and see whether the differences are something worth your time. It's all fast when you perform as you're taking care of all of these parameters in real-time, but sequencing can get a bit time consuming if you decide you want to really treat each and every track separately.


----------



## ChristianM

ned3000 said:


> Does that mean the string sections (like 1st. violins) will be made up of individual samples of (16?) solo violins? If so that seems like a pretty radical approach. Haven't heard of anyone doing that before.


Chris Hein Strings Ensemble


----------



## lljfnord

aaronventure said:


> The number one problem with sequencing is the fact that you _have_ _to _make each note a different duration (especially if you're doing shorts or repetitions). Infinite is accurate to a millisecond (it has to be in order for playing to feel good) and if you just click in repeated notes into a grid, it will do exactly that. It will definitely sound inhuman because there's just no way a horn player would ever play multiple notes with the exact same duration to a millisecond. Pitch differences, embouchure resonance etc. are taken care of for you. If you enable Humanize, timing and note velocity will be as well. But the actual note duration is the one thing you have to pay attention yourself.


Good thing I'm using Cakewalk, then. I'm not a player *at all* - never have been since getting started in the industry back in 1994. If I need to be that careful about humanizing my durations, I can most likely get a Cakewalk .CAL script going that will randomize the durations for me. I probably already have one ready to use in my script directory. (Edit - I do.)

Is there a certain threshold of accuracy that I need to comply with? For example, do the notes have to be a certain percentage different in duration in order to sound human?


----------



## aaronventure

lljfnord said:


> Good thing I'm using Cakewalk, then. I'm not a player *at all* - never have been since getting started in the industry back in 1994. If I need to be that careful about humanizing my durations, I can most likely get a Cakewalk .CAL script going that will randomize the durations for me. I probably already have one ready to use in my script directory. (Edit - I do.)
> 
> Is there a certain threshold of accuracy that I need to comply with? For example, do the notes have to be a certain percentage different in duration in order to sound human?


I wouldn't say there's an exact percentage, but a few miliseconds will do wonders. Try it out. Click in a repetition of a note, then compare vs the same thing with note lengths manually adjusted.


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> The number one problem with sequencing is the fact that you _have_ _to _make each note a different duration (especially if you're doing shorts or repetitions). Infinite is accurate to a millisecond (it has to be in order for playing to feel good) and if you just click in repeated notes into a grid, it will do exactly that. It will definitely sound inhuman because there's just no way a horn player would ever play multiple notes with the exact same duration to a millisecond. Pitch differences, embouchure resonance etc. are taken care of for you. If you enable Humanize, timing and note velocity will be as well. But the actual note duration is the one thing you have to pay attention yourself.
> 
> Even if you're not much of a player (I'll assume you'll try and play lyrical phrases but would prefer to sequence faster ones), at least recording the notes themselves can help you get notes of different duration in real-time. You can then move them into place or even quantize them and as long as they don't have the exact same duration, you'll be fine.
> 
> If your sequencer can randomize note duration for a percentage, you're all good, just use that. If it doesn't, punching them in and in that way giving them a humanized duration is much, much faster than clicking them into the grid and then manually adjusting each one. It can be very time consuming when you have multiple tracks that you have to do this do, and have a piece with lots of short repetitions.
> 
> When dealing with multiple tracks: if it's buried in a mix and you're using Humanize (either inside the instrument or inside your MIDI editor), copy pasting/performing multiple at the same time will be fine. But if the line is exposed and the primary focus, your best bet is to give each its own parameters. Unique note lengths, unique velocities, unique CC1. Try both approaches and see whether the differences are something worth your time. It's all fast when you perform as you're taking care of all of these parameters in real-time, but sequencing can get a bit time consuming if you decide you want to really treat each and every track separately.



As a non-player, I really like your tip to punch in the general rhythm of a passage and move the notes to the correct pitch after the fact. I had never considered that!

Now I just need a keyboard...


----------



## vicontrolu

I have a question regarding my current workflow with this library, although perhaps it would be more appropiate for the Kontakt smapling and Scripting subforum.

anyway, imagine you have a long chord written in a track which can send to multiple midi channels, sending each note to a different trombone for example (all of them inside the same kontakt instance). 

Then i want to do a p<f dynamics on the chord so i´d ride the CC using my MIDI controller, which is sending on midi channel 1. At this point i´d only have the dynamic shape on the first trombone, but then i use a multi script to send this same CC curve to channels 2 & 3.

While having humanization ON really helps with different attacks and legato transitions, the CC curve is still exactly the same for each trombone. I am having pretty convincing results already this way but i was thinking if perhaps there is a mulitscript available which sends "slightly different CC curves" to the different target channels. Something that would slighlty change the CC value and timing for each CC1 message, thus faking the deviations from player to player.

I know the thing to do for ultimate realism is just record manually each trombone on a separate track but having them on one track is really convenient for project structure and fast results, at least in my case (i kinda suck playing). I am not sure i wanna give up on this.


----------



## x-dfo

El Buhdai said:


> As a non-player, I really like your tip to punch in the general rhythm of a passage and move the notes to the correct pitch after the fact. I had never considered that!
> 
> Now I just need a keyboard...


This is actually a good secret to creating riffs and themes, rhythm gives a lot of feel to the passage.


----------



## campovsky

Another very happy new winds bundle owner over here!

I did notice some weirdness with the bass clarinet though on the first project I tried with it. It was randomly glitching on legato transitions, sudden bursts of loud, and silences. They wouldn’t happen at the same points either, the same section would be ok on a second playback.

Does this sound like a known issue? I’m 99% sure my CC info was all clean and ok.

Very excited about the woodwind update, and the strings... oh my... dreaming of them being the perfect library. I got SM strings and loved them but just found I couldn’t get them sounding right. When I went over to LASS it just sounded realer. I’m really hoping infinite strings will be to sm strings, what infinite brass is to sm brass!


----------



## I like music

campovsky said:


> Another very happy new winds bundle owner over here!
> 
> I did notice some weirdness with the bass clarinet though on the first project I tried with it. It was randomly glitching on legato transitions, sudden bursts of loud, and silences. They wouldn’t happen at the same points either, the same section would be ok on a second playback.
> 
> Does this sound like a known issue? I’m 99% sure my CC info was all clean and ok.
> 
> Very excited about the woodwind update, and the strings... oh my... dreaming of them being the perfect library. I got SM strings and loved them but just found I couldn’t get them sounding right. When I went over to LASS it just sounded realer. I’m really hoping infinite strings will be to sm strings, what infinite brass is to sm brass!



Weird you should mention the glitch. For the first time ever, yesterday I had this exact thing on horns. First playthrough it was as if it wasn't recognising the legato transition and playing the note attack that was set by velocity (as if detache). But then it went back to normal. 

Have you tried the brass, or just the woods? Brass is another level.


----------



## campovsky

I like music said:


> Weird you should mention the glitch. For the first time ever, yesterday I had this exact thing on horns. First playthrough it was as if it wasn't recognising the legato transition and playing the note attack that was set by velocity (as if detache). But then it went back to normal.
> 
> Have you tried the brass, or just the woods? Brass is another level.



Yeah I got the bundle, and yes the brass is an absolute delight especially. The woodwinds are really good, but can’t wait for them to be as good as the brass!

Strange you got it on the horns. On mine it kept happening randomly but only on the bass clarinet (I think). In the end I just muted the bass clarinet on what I was doing as it wasn’t really essential. Possible it was a CPU thing as I was doing full brass and woodwinds... but it happened even after I froze everything else.


----------



## I like music

campovsky said:


> Yeah I got the bundle, and yes the brass is an absolute delight especially. The woodwinds are really good, but can’t wait for them to be as good as the brass!
> 
> Strange you got it on the horns. On mine it kept happening randomly but only on the bass clarinet (I think). In the end I just muted the bass clarinet on what I was doing as it wasn’t really essential. Possible it was a CPU thing as I was doing full brass and woodwinds... but it happened even after I froze everything else.



Hmmm very odd. Did you try opening the bass clarinet up in a separate new kontakt instance and new track etc just to see if that had an impact?


----------



## campovsky

I like music said:


> Hmmm very odd. Did you try opening the bass clarinet up in a separate new kontakt instance and new track etc just to see if that had an impact?



Im afraid I didn’t as I was in just get it done mode. I’ll investigate, it was probably just a random thing, just wondered if it was a known thing. Even if it is a bug that never goes away, still super happy with the purchase!
At some point I’ll see if I can work it out, and report back on what’s going on


----------



## Batrawi

campovsky said:


> strings... oh my... dreaming of them being the perfect library.


same here. I'm sure Aaron will get the tone right, BUT... it's the scripted legato in such libraries that can make it or break it. That's my biggest fear since other libraries that followed this approach didn't end up sounding convincing at all IMHO including SM strings which I already have... The only exception where I heard a good scripted string legato is the 100% modelled AM strings. I hope Aaron can make something equivalent to this one at least, otherwise we'll hear that uncanny quality right away no matter how the tone was done right. And no... strings libraries do not react well to scripted legato as brass libraries which on contrary can sound great (SMB and IB for eg.) which would require a different kind of sorcery.


----------



## ned3000

campovsky said:


> Another very happy new winds bundle owner over here!
> 
> I did notice some weirdness with the bass clarinet though on the first project I tried with it. It was randomly glitching on legato transitions, sudden bursts of loud, and silences. They wouldn’t happen at the same points either, the same section would be ok on a second playback.
> 
> Does this sound like a known issue? I’m 99% sure my CC info was all clean and ok.
> 
> Very excited about the woodwind update, and the strings... oh my... dreaming of them being the perfect library. I got SM strings and loved them but just found I couldn’t get them sounding right. When I went over to LASS it just sounded realer. I’m really hoping infinite strings will be to sm strings, what infinite brass is to sm brass!



Not exactly the same problem, but I've had an issue where the instruments stop responding to CC1 during individual notes. Aaron suggested hitting the "!" icon in Kontakt to reset. Always works for that, might fix your problem as well.


----------



## dadadave

As I saw Nextmidi currently have a sale for Divisimate, it occurred to me that tool would make a good combination with Aaron's libraries, wouldn't you folks agree?


----------



## El Buhdai

campovsky said:


> Im afraid I didn’t as I was in just get it done mode. I’ll investigate, it was probably just a random thing, just wondered if it was a known thing. Even if it is a bug that never goes away, still super happy with the purchase!
> At some point I’ll see if I can work it out, and report back on what’s going on



Oh dang I'm sorry about that bug, as Infinites Bass Clarinet is what made me fall in love with the instrument and start using it in all my projects. Hope it smooths out for you!


----------



## Batrawi

dadadave said:


> As I saw Nextmidi currently have a sale for Divisimate, it occurred to me that tool would make a good combination with Aaron's libraries, wouldn't you folks agree?


I will repeat that again. You don't really need to spend some $$ on Divisimate so long you're orchestrating among kontakt instruments. Search for the "divisi multiscript" here and get it for free. The guy who developed (and keeps improving) it gives you the option to donate if you wish and I'd say he deserves all the support for this amzing little script he made available for us.


----------



## dadadave

Batrawi said:


> I will repeat that again. You don't really need to spend some $$ on Divisimate so long you're orchestrating among kontakt instruments. Search for the "divisi multiscript" here and get it for free. The guy who developed (and keeps improving) it gives you the option to donate if you wish and I'd say he deserves all the support for this amzing little script he made available for us.



Thanks for the tip, that looks interesting, I'll check it out! Kudos to the developer/author.

However, from what I can garner from the user guide, I don't think it really compares to the usability and functionality Divisimate offers (and of course *it doesn't have to compare*, being a free script vs. a commercial product). Of course it's already awesome to create divisi-capable Kontakt multis, but the option to have all sorts of instrument combinations and voicings at your fingertips is a different beast that I'm sure some people may find worth the price of admission (which I do agree is rather steep for Divisimate, but it seems very polished, keeps getting useful updates, comes with a companion app, video tutorials etc...)


----------



## Batrawi

dadadave said:


> Thanks for the tip, that looks interesting, I'll check it out! Kudos to the developer/author.
> 
> However, from what I can garner from the user guide, I don't think it really compares to the usability and functionality Divisimate offers (and of course *it doesn't have to compare*, being a free script vs. a commercial product). Of course it's already awesome to create divisi-capable Kontakt multis, but the option to have all sorts of instrument combinations and voicings at your fingertips is a different beast that I'm sure some people may find worth the price of admission (which I do agree is rather steep for Divisimate, but it seems very polished, keeps getting useful updates, comes with a companion app, video tutorials etc...)


Sure, Divisimate seems to offer a lot more...on paper. Practically though, it can be REALLY overwhelming, to the point that you may eventually find yourself leaning more to just go back for something that is more basic, faster to set and that JUST works without overcomplicating matters.. That said, my other advice is that you may wanna try both side by side first (I think Divisimate has a trial version?) and see for yourself what's more practically useful to you and whether the extra features are worth the extra cash.


----------



## campovsky

I love Aaron's genius idea of the sustain pedal legato bypass thingy. It's stopped me hunting for complicated divisi solutions. I'll just whack chords in on the first horn for example while I'm writing, and then later go back and play each part separately.

Bass clarinet was behaving well yesterday so I think it was a random thing. Probably my fault 

Did notice something else though with the legatos in general on Logic... things would play back slightly differently (better) if the track was in focus (ie in live playback mode), than if I had a different track selected. There seemed to be little problems on a fairly large (fifth or so) legato transition on a non-live track, that wouldn't be there when the track was 'live'. I solved it in this instance just by removing the overlap and all was dandy. I recall other mentions on this thread (I've been hovering for months!) of people using detache a lot more than legato with the winds... is this connected?

Do I recall improved legato being one of the things mentioned for the update as well?


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Just for the record, the latest 1.2 Divisi update walkthrough uses Aaron's Venture Brass Horns- and it sounds FANTASTIC 

divisimate Aaron Horns 

Seemed kinda fitting seems the topic and the way the discussion was going.


----------



## dadadave

Batrawi said:


> Practically though, it can be REALLY overwhelming, to the point that you may eventually find yourself leaning more to just go back for something that is more basic, faster to set and that JUST works without overcomplicating matters.. That said, my other advice is that you may wanna try both side by side first (I think Divisimate has a trial version?) and see for yourself what's more practically useful to you and whether the extra features are worth the extra cash.



good point, at the end of the day real-life efficiency is what what matters. A trial version would be awesome, considering the price.

Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread...


----------



## lljfnord

Batrawi said:


> I will repeat that again. You don't really need to spend some $$ on Divisimate so long you're orchestrating among kontakt instruments. Search for the "divisi multiscript" here and get it for free. The guy who developed (and keeps improving) it gives you the option to donate if you wish and I'd say he deserves all the support for this amzing little script he made available for us.


Is this for use within a specific DAW, or within Kontakt itself? I've never seen a .KSP script before, so I'm not familiar with its use. Please advise.


----------



## Batrawi

lljfnord said:


> Is this for use within a specific DAW, or within Kontakt itself? I've never seen a .KSP script before, so I'm not familiar with its use. Please advise.


It's within kontakt itself. Here's the thread where you can find all details






Multi Divisi Script v6.5


Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...




vi-control.net


----------



## Terry93D

I believe it's time for the regular "Boy I sure can't wait for the Strings" bump.

Boy, I sure can't wait for the Strings!


----------



## I like music

Terry93D said:


> I believe it's time for the regular "Boy I sure can't wait for the Strings" bump.
> 
> Boy, I sure can't wait for the Strings!


Have a feeling woodwinds are a couple of weeks away.


----------



## Terry93D

I like music said:


> Have a feeling woodwinds are a couple of weeks away.


Also exciting.


----------



## I like music

Terry93D said:


> Also exciting.


Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he also released another brass update. I think he mentioned wanting to improve another couple of small bits there?


----------



## I like music




----------



## aaronventure

Who's ready for some cimbassi this summer?


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Who's ready for some cimbassi this summer?


Fuck! No way!


----------



## SampleHoarder

aaronventure said:


> Who's ready for some cimbassi this summer?


That’s why I love my Infinite. It’s stuff you own that behaves like a subscription. Just make sure to put out new stuff so you can take some money from me.


----------



## Terry93D

aaronventure said:


> Who's ready for some cimbassi this summer?


Whoooooa.

Cimbassi. Hot damn.

That's gonna be really, really cool.

But to be honest... my heart's desire is a flugelhorn or two (or three). Not that I'm complaining, mind!


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Who's ready for some cimbassi this summer?



Yeah, finally!! I was waiting for them, even if I'm already loving Euphoniums so much.

Thank you.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Who's ready for some cimbassi this summer?



Demo, demo, demo, demo!


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Who's ready for some cimbassi this summer?



Awesome! Though at the risk of being a party pooper, I'm wondering if I'm the only one who would like to see the woodwinds update first this summer if it's also near completion. Like Terry93D said, I'm not complaining though! Seriously can't wait to support your work some more with future products.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Awesome! Though at the risk of being a party pooper, I'm wondering if I'm the only one who would like to see the woodwinds update first this summer if it's also near completion. Like Terry93D said, I'm not complaining though! Seriously can't wait to support your work some more with future products.



I think he'll be releasing both at the same time.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I think he'll be releasing both at the same time.



I don't think my heart would be able to handle that much excitement, haha! If he does that and I never come back to the thread, now you all will know why.


----------



## El Buhdai

Really starting to appreciate just how much fun Infinite Brass 1.4 is, even more than I already did. There's something very majestic about the way these instruments sound in the mp to mf range. The brass, especially the new trumpets, have a spine and command respect without having to constantly play above forte. In fact, in this demo, the modulation wheel for trumpets and horns hardly goes above half at all in the entire piece. Here's a short demo with some fairly lean orchestration. All brass are Infinite, and all woodwinds are Infinite except flutes (I'm sure that'll change soon with 1.2!). Only the Oboe, Bassoons and French Horns have some slight EQ to tame some resonance. Every other Infinite instrument is practically untouched by effects.

Brass:
4 Trumpets
6 French Horns
3 Tenor Trombones + Bass
1 Tuba

Woodwinds:
1 Flute (Hollywood Orchestra)
2 Clarinets
1 Oboe
2 Bassoons
1 Bass Clarinet

Strings and Percussion are CSS and Hollywood Percussion respectively.


----------



## campovsky

Nice! If we’re sharing stuff made with infinite, here’s one of mine. Very new to orchestral writing so appreciate any feedback! Though don’t wanna hijack the thread. (Although maybe at 82 pages that particular train has sailed!)
I wrote this piece a while ago with SM brass, but I don’t think I’m so great at getting the processing right, replaced with IB and the general sound was much better.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Really starting to appreciate just how much fun Infinite Brass 1.4 is, even more than I already did. There's something very majestic about the way these instruments sound in the mp to mf range. The brass, especially the new trumpets, have a spine and command respect without having to constantly play above forte. In fact, in this demo, the modulation wheel for trumpets and horns hardly goes above half at all in the entire piece. Here's a short demo with some fairly lean orchestration. All brass are Infinite, and all woodwinds are Infinite except flutes (I'm sure that'll change soon with 1.2!). Only the Oboe, Bassoons and French Horns have some slight EQ to tame some resonance. Every other Infinite instrument is practically untouched by effects.
> 
> Brass:
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 3 Tenor Trombones + Bass
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds:
> 1 Flute (Hollywood Orchestra)
> 2 Clarinets
> 1 Oboe
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 
> Strings and Percussion are CSS and Hollywood Percussion respectively.



Yessss! That range is beautiful!


----------



## I like music

campovsky said:


> Nice! If we’re sharing stuff made with infinite, here’s one of mine. Very new to orchestral writing so appreciate any feedback! Though don’t wanna hijack the thread. (Although maybe at 82 pages that particular train has sailed!)
> I wrote this piece a while ago with SM brass, but I don’t think I’m so great at getting the processing right, replaced with IB and the general sound was much better.


New to orchestral writing?! You have something good going on in your brain. Keep posting more!


----------



## I like music

I must say, my latest favourite library is actually the woods. The tone sounded good to me! To anyone who wants to know how the Infinite Series sounds, here's a 10 minute demo of John Williams at his best (ET Adventures on Earth). He makes the brass and the woodwinds to everything. Asks everything of them. You'll hear fanfares, nimble things, lyrical solos, massive tuttis, everything. 

Ignore my mixing capabilities. Still working on those SM Strings. I would *love to add IB Strings to this mockup.*


----------



## Terry93D

I like music said:


> I would *love to add IB Strings to this mockup.*


We *all* want the Infinite Strings! XD


----------



## El Buhdai

campovsky said:


> 82 pages



Nice piece! And yeah this bad boy is getting long, but thankfully it's not anywhere close to the length of some of the 200+ page Spitfire threads... well, at least not yet.


----------



## I like music

I like this thread because it is how I wish most threads regarding sample libraries would be. A wholesome thread, no real controversy, people willing to say when they like it, and others willing to say when they don't like it.

The fact that the developer is open to receiving critique and is responsive, probably makes a big difference. No one feels cheated. People are posting lots of examples. A helpful community in this thread. Long may it continue.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> I like this thread because it is how I wish most threads regarding sample libraries would be. A wholesome thread, no real controversy, people willing to say when they like it, and others willing to say when they don't like it.
> 
> The fact that the developer is open to receiving critique and is responsive, probably makes a big difference. No one feels cheated. People are posting lots of examples. A helpful community in this thread. Long may it continue.


This. Also @I like music allow me to observe that you are a great forum member, who contributes to a number of threads with nothing but well informed and constructive posts. And, I might add, with excellent and very musical mockups, that really showcase both the VIs used and your own talents. Much appreciated!


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> Really starting to appreciate just how much fun Infinite Brass 1.4 is, even more than I already did. There's something very majestic about the way these instruments sound in the mp to mf range. The brass, especially the new trumpets, have a spine and command respect without having to constantly play above forte. In fact, in this demo, the modulation wheel for trumpets and horns hardly goes above half at all in the entire piece. Here's a short demo with some fairly lean orchestration. All brass are Infinite, and all woodwinds are Infinite except flutes (I'm sure that'll change soon with 1.2!). Only the Oboe, Bassoons and French Horns have some slight EQ to tame some resonance. Every other Infinite instrument is practically untouched by effects.
> 
> Brass:
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 3 Tenor Trombones + Bass
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds:
> 1 Flute (Hollywood Orchestra)
> 2 Clarinets
> 1 Oboe
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 
> Strings and Percussion are CSS and Hollywood Percussion respectively.



This is so good, thanks for sharing!


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> This. Also @I like music allow me to observe that you are a great forum member, who contributes to a number of threads with nothing but well informed and constructive posts. And, I might add, with excellent and very musical mockups, that really showcase both the VIs used and your own talents. Much appreciated!



Many thanks, and likewise for you. I'm just keeping a civil facade until Aaron releases the strings, and then, once I have everything I need, I can finally tell you all how much I hate you, and quit these forums 

This reminds me. We can't be too far away from the woodwinds update


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Many thanks, and likewise for you. I'm just keeping a civil facade until Aaron releases the strings, and then, once I have everything I need, I can finally tell you all how much I hate you, and quit these forums
> 
> This reminds me. We can't be too far away from the woodwinds update


Knowing you and your expert knowledge of SM Strings, I bet Aaron will have asked you to beta test the heck out of IS. Nice try keeping up the facade, and throwing in confusing remarks about IW updates. We all know you are the only customer who already has IS. Or maybe @Batrawi and @El Buhdai are secret beta testers as well?


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Knowing you and your expert knowledge of SM Strings, I bet Aaron will have asked you to beta test the heck out of IS. Nice try keeping up the facade, and throwing in confusing remarks about IW updates. We all know you are the only customer who already has IS. Or maybe @Batrawi and @El Buhdai are secret beta testers as well?



My way of procrastinating is to do bad mockups. I've never actually written my own music!


----------



## Batrawi

doctoremmet said:


> Or maybe @Batrawi and @El Buhdai are secret beta testers as well?


Nope, just an owner of SM Strings here. Never actually beta-tested anything myself.


----------



## doctoremmet

Batrawi said:


> Nope, just an owner of SM Strings here. Never actually beta-tested anything myself.


I was having fun there, but I was aware that you are an SM Strings user - so that would qualify you as a beta tester


----------



## DivingInSpace

Imagine being a child and not exactly knowing how many days till your birthday and Christmas, just that both are somewhere in the near future. That's how i feel with the ww update and the strings.


----------



## doctoremmet

Batrawi said:


> Nope, just an owner of SM Strings here. Never actually beta-tested anything myself.


If you ever have the time and feel like it, eventually I’d be very interested in a Infinite Strings VS Sample Modeling Strings shootout video. @El Buhdai can do the same for IS VS Hollywood Strings (or HOOPUS, but let’s hope IS will be released before that one)... Wait! Maybe @El Buhdai is beta testing IS ALONGSIDE HOOPUS! Omg, mind blown.


----------



## decredis

Just wanted to pop in to briefly express appreciation for the effectively "infinite round robins" of the Infinite series... it's something highlighted in the walkthroughs of course, that if one has different velocity and length it will never sound machine-gunny... but it's remarkable how subtly effective it is.

I had a part in another company's semi-modelled instrument where a repeated note sounded machiney in that way, and I had intended to tweak various CCs to get some differences between the notes, but then I tried just swapping in an Infinite trumpet, and it sounded natural all by itself, bless it. Don't know what magic underlies it, but it's darn fine magic.

I couldn't tell you how the notes differ from each other, but I can tell you my auditory cortex isn't instinctively objecting to them, as it otherwise would.


----------



## aaronventure

decredis said:


> Don't know what magic underlies it, but it's darn fine magic


The blackest magic of them all—math.


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Many thanks, and likewise for you. I'm just keeping a civil facade until Aaron releases the strings, and then, once I have everything I need, I can finally tell you all how much I hate you, and quit these forums
> 
> This reminds me. We can't be too far away from the woodwinds update



Speak for yourself! I mean, I agree and all about the strings... but, it still boggles my mind what he'll do with percussion. 

Don't underestimate Aaron Venture, the black magic wizard.


----------



## doctoremmet

aaronventure said:


> The blackest magic of them all—math.


Only a matter of months before Trump will publicly declare a ban on math, to please certain anti-science demographics. Better hurry up with the models then!


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> The blackest magic of them all—math.


If you're that good, then can you do a quick calculation around how many more days are left till release? 😝


----------



## Sean J

doctoremmet said:


> Only a matter of months before Trump will publicly declare a ban on math, to please certain anti-science demographics. Better hurry up with the models then!



I mean no disrespect, but let's keep politics off this thread. I didn't vote for Trump. I wear a mask. I also believe a few of Obama's policies made his office one of the most destructive in history, but I don't mock him. Ridicule is the easiest vessel for fallacy and contention, especially if we accept it so casually.

Edit: I also want to say I didn't think you were malicious at all. I just think it gives room to derail this into something that can become such and off-topic, etc, etc. We all know how it is. One moment we're talking about cheese and the next we're talking about the Supreme Court.


----------



## doctoremmet

scoredfilms said:


> I mean no disrespect, but let's keep politics off this thread. I didn't vote for Trump. I wear a mask. I also believe a few of Obama's policies made his office one of the most destructive in history, but I don't mock him. Ridicule is the easiest vessel for fallacy and contention, especially if we accept it so casually.


Sure thing. I meant no disrespect either, so my apologies to y’all  - just a joke.


----------



## Laptoprabbit

Here's a snippet with Infinite French horn. Really playable - just banged the line right in


----------



## I like music

Laptoprabbit said:


> Here's a snippet with Infinite French horn. Really playable - just banged the line right in



Really nice!!! One of your own compositions? I like how it all sits together too. 

What strings are you using here? Have nice 'air' to them too.


----------



## Laptoprabbit

I like music said:


> Really nice!!! One of your own compositions? I like how it all sits together too.
> 
> What strings are you using here? Have nice 'air' to them too.



Thanks! It's mine, I'm using Bohemian cello and the violins from bbcso (sul tasto long)


----------



## Damarus

Guys I need more demos, I can't get over how great these libraries are. 

Definitely excited to get my hands on the bundle when the strings come out.


----------



## oceanic714

Damarus said:


> Guys I need more demos, I can't get over how great these libraries are.
> 
> Definitely excited to get my hands on the bundle when the strings come out.


Here's a sloppy little take on some Bruckner low brass.


----------



## mussnig

Some question for the experts: I've read in the Patch Notes for v1.4 that IB has an HQ Switch but I can't seem to find it.
Does anyone know more about this.

Also sorry if this has been discussed before - however, I didn't find anything with the search function.


----------



## I like music

mussnig said:


> Some question for the experts: I've read in the Patch Notes for v1.4 that IB has an HQ Switch but I can't seem to find it.
> Does anyone know more about this.
> 
> Also sorry if this has been discussed before - however, I didn't find anything with the search function.



I believe it exists for the Trumpet only. It should be quite prominent in the instrument panel. Literally just says "HQ" and you can click it to light it up/turn it off. Not near my machine but will try to get a screenshot when I have a chance.


----------



## mussnig

I like music said:


> I believe it exists for the Trumpet only. It should be quite prominent in the instrument panel. Literally just says "HQ" and you can click it to light it up/turn it off. Not near my machine but will try to get a screenshot when I have a chance.



Ahhh, thank you. So far I've only been using the low brass ... but from what I can tell, I am amazed by this library!


----------



## I like music

mussnig said:


> Ahhh, thank you. So far I've only been using the low brass ... but from what I can tell, I am amazed by this library!



Yeah, it is amazing! Do post anything you compose!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I believe it exists for the Trumpet only. It should be quite prominent in the instrument panel. Literally just says "HQ" and you can click it to light it up/turn it off. Not near my machine but will try to get a screenshot when I have a chance.



If I remember well it should be on trumpets, trombones and horns.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> If I remember well it should be on trumpets, trombones and horns.



What?! Why am I not seeing it on the other instruments?! Do you have any screenshots?!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> What?! Why am I not seeing it on the other instruments?! Do you have any screenshots?!


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


>


Thank you! Oh wait, I think I remember now. I think I might be misled by the fact that Aaron might have said that the HQ setting had the biggest impact on the Trumpets. So I turned it off and never paid attention to it on the other instruments.

I see you have the progressive vibrato and depth (mod) automation switched on. I could never work with the libraries that way. Do you wiggle the modwheel to create vibrato? How does it feel?


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Thank you! Oh wait, I think I remember now. I think I might be misled by the fact that Aaron might have said that the HQ setting had the biggest impact on the Trumpets. So I turned it off and never paid attention to it on the other instruments.
> 
> I see you have the progressive vibrato and depth (mod) automation switched on. I could never work with the libraries that way. Do you wiggle the modwheel to create vibrato? How does it feel?



Here I made a screenshot with the library at default, this is not from my template.

Anyway I had them turned on but I use a separate CC for vibrato. I use CC2 for dynamics (I have a breath controller) and CC1 for vibrato.


----------



## Chris Richter

He mentions the reasoning in the walkthrough Video on his YT Channel. Can’t remember though...


----------



## lettucehat

oceanic714 said:


> Here's a sloppy little take on some Bruckner low brass.



Oh man I've been waiting to hear a good mockup of exactly this for so long. I watch low brass videos on youtube all the time and this is my favorite little excerpt. Sounds really great.


----------



## Damarus

Anyone bold enough to make some large ensemble demos? I can only watch videos on the site so many times


----------



## I like music

Damarus said:


> Anyone bold enough to make some large ensemble demos? I can only watch videos on the site so many times



The ET demo I posted has six horns, 4 tpts etc. I think the library sounds very convincing in those ensemble sizes.


----------



## I like music

Do I smell a woods update soon?


----------



## Damarus

I like music said:


> The ET demo I posted has six horns, 4 tpts etc. I think the library sounds very convincing in those ensemble sizes.



Oh you posted the JW mockup? Yeah I *loved *it. Thought you did a great job!

I'm just being needy because I don't have these libraries yet


----------



## I like music

Damarus said:


> Oh you posted the JW mockup? Yeah I *loved *it. Thought you did a great job!
> 
> I'm just being needy because I don't have these libraries yet


Thanks. Ahhh shame. You must get them one day! Best library in my opinion. Waiting on finances or waiting for the Strings? 

I'm starting to save for the Strings already...


----------



## oceanic714

Damarus said:


> Anyone bold enough to make some large ensemble demos? I can only watch videos on the site so many times








Pictures at an Exhibition (Mussorgsky, Modest) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org










Swan Lake (ballet), Op.20 (Tchaikovsky, Pyotr) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org










Symphonie fantastique, H 48 (Berlioz, Hector) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org





I'd love to see these recreated with IB/IW. Plenty of great scores and parts available on IMSLP.


----------



## Damarus

I like music said:


> Thanks. Ahhh shame. You must get them one day! Best library in my opinion. Waiting on finances or waiting for the Strings?
> 
> I'm starting to save for the Strings already...



I think waiting for the strings. I'm known to impulse buy, so who knows


----------



## I like music

Damarus said:


> I think waiting for the strings. I'm known to impulse buy, so who knows



Don't wait! Who knows, the world might end tomorrow?!


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Don't wait! Who knows, the world might end tomorrow?!



Wrong. It already ended. We're just not aware of it yet. But I still agree. That's absolutely not a good reason to delay buying anything Infinite. I wanted to wait too, but I'm glad I didn't. Once you get the brass, you just can't stop playing with it.


----------



## mussnig

Another question to the Pros: How do you use IB for ensembles? E.g. a line that is played by 4 Horns together. Do you write/play-in the line for each Horn separately or do you create a multi (and use Humanize)?

Since I am using a laptop with a Core i7-1065g7, creating a Kontakt Multi with IB can at times be quite demanding for my CPU. However, using multiple instances of Kontakt and sending them all the same MIDI basically does the same but is less demanding on my CPU. This of course uses more RAM but this shouldn't be a concern with IB (even for me with "only" 16 GB).

In the approach above I am using a separate track just for the MIDI which is then sent to all the Kontakt tracks. However, this way I can also create more pure MIDI tracks, e.g. one for Horns a4 and one for Horns a6. This way, I can use different section sizes but also Solo parts by entering the MIDI directly in the Kontakt tracks. Is this a reasonable approach?

I usually don't really work with templates but for this scenario it would make sense to create one ...


----------



## Terry93D

on the subject of waiting, I dislike waiting for the Strings.  I kid, of course. I have the fullest confidence that when the website says 2020, it means it, and that Aaron's programming will be as intelligent and playable and flexible as the Brass and Winds are. It's just that the Brass and Winds are so good that waiting for Strings of comparable quality becomes painful, especially when my main Strings library right now dates to the early 2000s (the String Essentials included in Best Service's Complete Orchestral Collection of Siedlaczek's libraries)... which, it sounds very good for its age, which is why I use it, but its age means that there are some irritating quirks of programming and that there aren't too many articulations, and finer control, better sound, more sensible programming, and a greater nr. of articulations all make the Infinite Strings infinitely tempting (seewhatIdidthere) and so one becomes very excited and indeed impatient for them... and by "one" I of course mean "I".


----------



## aaronventure

Terry93D said:


> I have the fullest confidence that when the website says 2020, it means it









Jokes aside, some stuff you just can't know until you're in deep development. I'm optimistic, but I've gotten ambitious before and pushed releases back.

Whenever they're ready, they'll be glorious.




mussnig said:


> How do you use IB for ensembles?


Here's my current track template for Brass.






Horns 2-6 have Humanize enabled. Same for trumpets 2-3 and Tenor Trombone 2. I have loaded in additional copies of Bass Trombone and Contrabass Trombone which the Trombones a4 MIDI track points to, which have Humanize enabled and a lower Attack Accuracy setting. So when I'm using individual trombone tracks, these aren't playing (nor using any resources since it's the same patch as the individual ones and no CPU cycles are used while the instrument is not playing). 

You can do the same for horns and trumpets and have your individual MIDI tracks be non-humanized if you want to really play them all in. However, I often found myself copy-pasting notes and just reperforming CCs unless the lines were exposed, and so if I ever need to disable Humanize I just do it via MIDI/Expression maps really quickly.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Whenever they're ready, they'll be glorious.



No one cares about 'glorious'. We only care about ... NEXT GEN.

This is amazing to hear, though.


----------



## Ricgus3

aaronventure said:


> Jokes aside, some stuff you just can't know until you're in deep development. I'm optimistic, but I've gotten ambitious before and pushed releases back.
> 
> Whenever they're ready, they'll be glorious.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my current track template for Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horns 2-6 have Humanize enabled. Same for trumpets 2-3 and Tenor Trombone 2. I have loaded in additional copies of Bass Trombone and Contrabass Trombone which the Trombones a4 MIDI track points to, which have Humanize enabled and a lower Attack Accuracy setting. So when I'm using individual trombone tracks, these aren't playing (nor using any resources since it's the same patch as the individual ones and no CPU cycles are used while the instrument is not playing).
> 
> You can do the same for horns and trumpets and have your individual MIDI tracks be non-humanized if you want to really play them all in. However, I often found myself copy-pasting notes and just reperforming CCs unless the lines were exposed, and so if I ever need to disable Humanize I just do it via MIDI/Expression maps really quickly.


When i see there is no articulations: damn... I need this. How much RAM does this eat Up? I heard it is very easy on the cpu. Also if you are not a great piano player is it still good to write in the midi urself? For complicated runs or passage? I am a mediocre piano player


----------



## I like music

Ricgus3 said:


> When i see there is no articulations: damn... I need this. How much RAM does this eat Up? I heard it is very easy on the cpu. Also if you are not a great piano player is it still good to write in the midi urself? For complicated runs or passage? I am a mediocre piano player



Infinite libraries are the kind of libraries that I actually think are even better if you are writing the MIDI in (personal opinion). Because whatever you micro-tweak, you can hear the results. And tweaking DOES make a difference (in some libraries you can tweak for hours but there is a limit to what you can sculpt)


----------



## mussnig

I like music said:


> Infinite libraries are the kind of libraries that I actually think are even better if you are writing the MIDI in (personal opinion). Because whatever you micro-tweak, you can hear the results. And tweaking DOES make a difference (in some libraries you can tweak for hours but there is a limit to what you can sculpt)



RAM is very little: I just started Kontakt Standalone which takes 122,4 MB. Loading a Patch of IB increases this to 218,1 MB. There is no need to purge anything, since only about 12,5 MB of Samples are loaded. As a Comparison: When I load a Solo Horn Patch from Spitfire Studio Brass the RAM increases to 397,2 MB - after Purging it's 222,8 MB.

In my experience the CPU Hit is larger than with more traditional sampled libraries but I think it also depends on how much you "shape" the sound. But my experience is limited and I haven't used it too much yet.

Regarding Playability: I am a very bad keyboard player. But even for me it is very easy with IB to create the sounds I have in mind. It feels so natural, it's amazing.


----------



## DANIELE

Ricgus3 said:


> When i see there is no articulations: damn... I need this. How much RAM does this eat Up? I heard it is very easy on the cpu. Also if you are not a great piano player is it still good to write in the midi urself? For complicated runs or passage? I am a mediocre piano player



The RAM used is minimal, you need a good CPU to work well with many instruments at once but these libraries are very light on resources usage.

About the recording/writing in you can choose the way you want to compose something. Sometime I play live and record and then I do manual tweaks and so on, sometime I write right in the midi editor and do everything manually, sometime I write the notes and I record the automations and so on...

About the runs if you use Reaper there is an interesting plugin that makes glissandi for you. I also edited it to make scales quickly, you can choose the tonic and the scale type, if you want to make a custom run you can always do it manually.


----------



## stfciu

DANIELE said:


> The RAM used is minimal, you need a good CPU to work well with many instruments at once but these libraries are very light on resources usage.
> 
> About the recording/writing in you can choose the way you want to compose something. Sometime I play live and record and then I do manual tweaks and so on, sometime I write right in the midi editor and do everything manually, sometime I write the notes and I record the automations and so on...
> 
> About the runs if you use Reaper there is an interesting plugin that makes glissandi for you. I also edited it to make scales quickly, you can choose the tonic and the scale type, if you want to make a custom run you can always do it manually.


Do you recall the plugin name? Is it something from the JS library?


----------



## Ricgus3

DANIELE said:


> The RAM used is minimal, you need a good CPU to work well with many instruments at once but these libraries are very light on resources usage.
> 
> About the recording/writing in you can choose the way you want to compose something. Sometime I play live and record and then I do manual tweaks and so on, sometime I write right in the midi editor and do everything manually, sometime I write the notes and I record the automations and so on...
> 
> About the runs if you use Reaper there is an interesting plugin that makes glissandi for you. I also edited it to make scales quickly, you can choose the tonic and the scale type, if you want to make a custom run you can always do it manually.


Thanks! I actually am using reaper! When i loaded in Areia with sections and articulations, that alobr landed at 14 gb of ram usage... Which to me seems like alot! So if IB librariew just takes that small amount of ram that is amazing! I have been eyeing some dedicted brass and Woods library. This seems really good. Is there a demo of someone playing the force theme on a horn that I can listen to?wabt to hear that soft horn lines. I watcjed Cory perizzali and he mostly used full dynamics on the horn review


----------



## DANIELE

stfciu said:


> Do you recall the plugin name? Is it something from the JS library?



I don't know if I can post the link here so if you look for "HansTheMan's Reaper scripts" and you look at the last posts you can find my version that has all the useful additions I talked about. Let me know if you find it.


----------



## DANIELE

Ricgus3 said:


> Thanks! I actually am using reaper! When i loaded in Areia with sections and articulations, that alobr landed at 14 gb of ram usage... Which to me seems like alot! So if IB librariew just takes that small amount of ram that is amazing! I have been eyeing some dedicted brass and Woods library. This seems really good. Is there a demo of someone playing the force theme on a horn that I can listen to?wabt to hear that soft horn lines. I watcjed Cory perizzali and he mostly used full dynamics on the horn review



You could listen to my last track, I posted the link some time ago here, it is a Star Wars inspired track so maybe you could listen to a similar theme with horn low dynamics.

EDIT *here* you are. This is not the last mastering I did but it should be enough!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

DANIELE said:


> You could listen to my last track, I posted the link some time ago here, it is a Star Wars inspired track so maybe you could listen to a similar theme with horn low dynamics.
> 
> EDIT *here* you are. This is not the last mastering I did but it should be enough!


Sounds great. I enjoyed listening to it. If I myself can learn to write stuff like that in time, then I will be very happy


----------



## DANIELE

hbjdk said:


> Sounds great. I enjoyed listening to it. If I myself can learn to write stuff like that in time, then I will be very happy



Thank you.


----------



## Ricgus3

DANIELE said:


> You could listen to my last track, I posted the link some time ago here, it is a Star Wars inspired track so maybe you could listen to a similar theme with horn low dynamics.
> 
> EDIT *here* you are. This is not the last mastering I did but it should be enough!


Thanks! Sounds really good! are all brass from Infinite Brass?


----------



## Terry93D

aaronventure said:


> Jokes aside, some stuff you just can't know until you're in deep development. I'm optimistic, but I've gotten ambitious before and pushed releases back.
> 
> Whenever they're ready, they'll be glorious.


What can I say? I'm an optimist. If I have to wait, I'll wait. It's the quality of the end result that's of highest importance, after all.


----------



## DANIELE

Ricgus3 said:


> Thanks! Sounds really good! are all brass from Infinite Brass?



Yes, no layering with other brass instruments, I have only IB in my template. I use a spatialization plugin on them but nothing else.


----------



## PerryD

I sense brass & woodwinds updates are _very_ close. Mostly from Aaron's comments here.  Of course, I also thought the current US president could never have possibly won, so...


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> I sense brass & woodwinds updates are _very_ close. Mostly from Aaron's comments here.  Of course, I also thought the current US president could never have possibly won, so...



Have a feeling we're a few days away. Wishful thinking probably. No real evidence to back it up.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Have a feeling we're a few days away. Wishful thinking probably. No real evidence to back it up.


I do love these feelings!


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## doctoremmet

Aaron would seriously cause injuries and casualties if he were to drop 1.2, 1.5 (figuring that cembasso at least bumps up the version one decimal) AND IS1.0. The excitement would be unbearable!

In my mind this event would be remembered as August 15th, the Second Coming of the Holy Trinity.


----------



## I like music

I do remember Aaron saying, around a month ago, that the brass is going to "get even better" with more improvements. Didn't think it was really possible to improve, but clearly he's determined to really put his name behind these instruments.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> I do remember Aaron saying, around a month ago, that the brass is going to "get even better" with more improvements. Didn't think it was really possible to improve, but clearly he's determined to really put his name behind these instruments.


He is without a doubt the coolest developer I know.


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> Aaron would seriously cause injuries and casualties if he were to drop 1.2, 1.5 (figuring that cembasso at least bumps up the version one decimal) AND IS1.0. The excitement would be unbearable!
> 
> In my mind this event would be remembered as August 15th, the Second Coming of the Holy Trinity.



I believe we will not see the strings until the end of the year, and maybe even until first quarter 2021. Seriously he said many times he still has to work on them a lot.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> I believe we will not see the strings until the end of the year, and maybe even until first quarter 2021. Seriously he said many times he still has to work on them a lot.


I do realize that. This was merely a fun thing to conceptualize


----------



## El Buhdai

Damarus said:


> Anyone bold enough to make some large ensemble demos? I can only watch videos on the site so many times



Define "large". I might be able to arrange that. I'd have to toss CSS and pull out the old reliable Hollywood Strings though.


----------



## El Buhdai

mussnig said:


> Another question to the Pros: How do you use IB for ensembles? E.g. a line that is played by 4 Horns together. Do you write/play-in the line for each Horn separately or do you create a multi (and use Humanize)?
> 
> Since I am using a laptop with a Core i7-1065g7, creating a Kontakt Multi with IB can at times be quite demanding for my CPU. However, using multiple instances of Kontakt and sending them all the same MIDI basically does the same but is less demanding on my CPU. This of course uses more RAM but this shouldn't be a concern with IB (even for me with "only" 16 GB).
> 
> In the approach above I am using a separate track just for the MIDI which is then sent to all the Kontakt tracks. However, this way I can also create more pure MIDI tracks, e.g. one for Horns a4 and one for Horns a6. This way, I can use different section sizes but also Solo parts by entering the MIDI directly in the Kontakt tracks. Is this a reasonable approach?
> 
> I usually don't really work with templates but for this scenario it would make sense to create one ...



Some of us write each line individually. Others arm multiple tracks and record all the MIDI and automation at once. Others use multiscripts to form artificial ensembles. I personally use a combination of a multiscript and a custom UI to create my own ensemble patches that can all be controlled in three ways: as a section, as. A section with divisi, and with just the first chair. It's worked great for for my workflow thus far but unfortunately my method is exclusive to FL Studio.


----------



## aaronventure

Ricgus3 said:


> How much RAM does this eat Up?


If you're using Chrome, less than the tab you typed this question in. 

~15 MB/instrument. For the same patches loaded multiple times (the ones I loaded in order to have Humanize enabled when using a4, a6 tracks) RAM use doesn't stack.


----------



## TGV

aaronventure said:


> If you're using Chrome, less than the tab you typed this question in.


Take that, Google.

Excellent job, Aaron. Like so many others, I truly appreciate your dedication to your products and customers.


----------



## Leandro Gardini

aaronventure said:


> If you're using Chrome, less than the tab you typed this question in.
> 
> ~15 MB/instrument. For the same patches loaded multiple times (the ones I loaded in order to have Humanize enabled when using a4, a6 tracks) RAM use doesn't stack.


You are one of the very few game-changers on the market.


----------



## Wenlone

Ricgus3 said:


> How much RAM does this eat Up?





aaronventure said:


> If you're using Chrome, less than the tab you typed this question in.
> 
> ~15 MB/instrument. For the same patches loaded multiple times (the ones I loaded in order to have Humanize enabled when using a4, a6 tracks) RAM use doesn't stack.



RAM usage of Infinite Series is very low. But we can't ignore the real ram usage. Even if all the samples purged, every patch uses some amount of ram for scripts,effects etc. I think people need to know this too. Because it's not 15 mb per patch, it's 50+15 for each patch. Of course it's still extremely low. Espacially when compared to other libraries.Some of them uses 500-600 mb per patch even when fully purged.

EDIT: and don't forget that one patch of infinite series contains unlimited amount of articulations 



Spoiler: Screenshots


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> I do realize that. This was merely a fun thing to conceptualize



I know I know, I was just trying to cool you guys down!


----------



## Beans

Wenlone said:


> Because it's not 15 mb per patch, it's 50+15 for each patch. Of course it's still extremely low. Espacially when compared to other libraries.Some of them uses 500-600 mb per patch even when fully purged.
> 
> EDIT: and don't forget that one patch of infinite series contains unlimited amount of articulations



Thanks for the research! But yes, it's ridiculous how fast these load and how little RAM they take up. The first time I loaded up a horn, I thought something had gone wrong since it just sort of... appeared. Spooky fast.


----------



## Terry93D

Terry93D said:


> Finally made the plunge and purchased the brass and woodwinds. The prospect of a 30-person horn (thanks to transpositions) section was almost enough by itself to convince me even without adding in the prospect of a 9-person bassoon section or the saxophones and the bass oboe.
> 
> (Fingers crossed now for soprano saxes and flugelhorns!)


As it happens, I did actually make a nine-bassoon piece, and I simply didn't post it. I'm doing so now:



This was the first thing I ever made with the Infinite Winds. Listening to it now, I realize where it would sound better and more lively: detuning by a few cents so that it sounds more like there really are nine bassoons; and some vibrato control, as, especially at the end, with the sustained notes, it does sound a bit mechanical.


----------



## El Buhdai

leogardini said:


> You are one of the very few game-changers on the market.



Spitfire begs to differ. Well... At least their marketing team does.


----------



## El Buhdai

Terry93D said:


> As it happens, I did actually make a nine-bassoon piece, and I simply didn't post it. I'm doing so now:
> 
> 
> 
> This was the first thing I ever made with the Infinite Winds. Listening to it now, I realize where it would sound better and more lively: detuning by a few cents so that it sounds more like there really are nine bassoons; and some vibrato control, as, especially at the end, with the sustained notes, it does sound a bit mechanical.




The Bassoons are one of instruments where I feel a tone boost is sorely needed for 1.2. Can't wait to hear what they sound like!


----------



## Sean J

Infinite Strings = cellos.
Infinite cellos = happiness.
Infinite math = unlimited round robins.

Ergo, Infinite Strings = unlimited happiness.


----------



## DivingInSpace

scoredfilms said:


> Infinite Strings = cellos.
> Infinite cellos = happiness.
> Infinite math = unlimited round robins.
> 
> Ergo, Infinite Strings = unlimited happiness.


My body is absolutely ready.


----------



## shawnsingh

For me, the infinite excitement comes from:
- infinitely tweakable vibrato rate and depth
- sculptable attacks via two parts - note velocity and dynamics CC
- infinitely nuanced durations for short notes

I can see how round robins are important for a lot of people, but for me personally, being able to infinitely control vibrato, attacks, and durations is more alluring - it can make a night-and-day difference in the magic of a strings library. =)


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> The Bassoons are one of instruments where I feel a tone boost is sorely needed for 1.2. Can't wait to hear what they sound like!




Soon, folks. Can't wait to get it out to y'all. Just need to make sure the flutes are right.

EDIT: Here's the Bassoon as it currently is in 1.1 for comparison.


----------



## doctoremmet

aaronventure said:


> Soon, folks. Can't wait to get it out to y'all. Just need to make sure the flutes are right.



I want to play a song by the Smiths now, called “How soon is now?”. This sounds GOOD Aaron, thanks!


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Soon, folks. Can't wait to get it out to y'all. Just need to make sure the flutes are right.




YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!!!


----------



## Ricgus3

Can you tease us abit more Aaron?? Like, a clarinet tease :D Tease me like one of your french (horns) girls


----------



## Terry93D

aaronventure said:


> Soon, folks. Can't wait to get it out to y'all. Just need to make sure the flutes are right.



That sounds stunning.


----------



## mussnig

So here is my first track using Infinite Brass. There were a couple of different libs/patches that I wanted to try out, so in total it's a bit weird (I just wanted to write something using all of that stuff). There is not too much Brass going on - it starts with a rip (9 trombones) around the 1 min mark.


----------



## pierrevigneron

This new bassoon sounds very nice !!!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Hi Aaron ,

will the flutes be getting re done for 1.2 ?
Your stuff is excellent but I have been sold on the flutes, maybe it’s just me or a personal thing.

either way keep up the excellent work , and thanks for keeping us so informed !


----------



## DivingInSpace

aaronventure said:


> Soon, folks. Can't wait to get it out to y'all. Just need to make sure the flutes are right.





Paul Jelfs said:


> Hi Aaron ,
> 
> will the flutes be getting re done for 1.2 ?
> Your stuff is excellent but I have been sold on the flutes, maybe it’s just me or a personal thing.
> 
> either way keep up the excellent work , and thanks for keeping us so informed !


 In this QUOTE, it seems like he is working hard on making the flutes sound better. They've also been the most critisized part of the library, and it seems like Aaron really listens to his costumers, so i would be surprised if he didn't give them an overhaul.


----------



## Sean J

Paul Jelfs said:


> maybe it’s just me or a personal thing.



The flutes are being redone.

I posted this mock-up from Harry Potter a while back. It's still useful for composing, just not final output yet. The fact that we're even getting a redo, know about it in advance, and without paying $600 for new instruments played by a different famous orchestra in a new room w/ the same broken scripts. Yeah, we're getting a flute update, and it rocks that we are!


----------



## omc_29

Does Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwind show up in the Kontakt library tab or do you have to search for it in the file menu like 8dios libraries?


----------



## aaronventure

omc_29 said:


> Does Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwind show up in the Kontakt library tab or do you have to search for it in the file menu like 8dios libraries?


They don't. You need full Kontakt 5.7.0 or later. 

You can also map them to Quick-Load, which is a lot faster (right click empty rack area). 



scoredfilms said:


> The flutes are being redone.


Everything is being redone (well, most of it's already finished). What you heard above are not the same bassoon samples.


----------



## omc_29

aaronventure said:


> They don't. You need full Kontakt 5.7.0 or later.
> 
> You can also map them to Quick-Load, which is a lot faster (right click empty rack area).
> 
> 
> Everything is being redone (well, most of it's already finished). What you heard above are not the same bassoon samples.



I do have the full version of kontakt but do quite like libraries showing up in the Library tab rather than having to go through to the files section. Obviously not a big issues though.


----------



## El Buhdai

omc_29 said:


> I do have the full version of kontakt but do quite like libraries showing up in the Library tab rather than having to go through to the files section. Obviously not a big issues though.



The problem is, I believe there's some cost (revenue share, flat fee, etc.) to doing that unless I'm not remembering correctly or I'm mistaken. I just remember hearing there's some other barrier that makes it harder for smaller developers to do it. It would be great if someone with more knowledge could correct me.


----------



## Damarus

aaronventure said:


> Everything is being redone (well, most of it's already finished). What you heard above are not the same bassoon samples.



Name another developer that has done this, ill wait.


----------



## Sean J

Damarus said:


> Name another developer that has done this, ill wait.



I get the economics of making more. If I had millions I'd buy a tiny house and put every last dime into sampling. Money buys help, great AE's, and nice rooms. Aaron is doing genius things, but once his libraries get to a point to where the tone satisfies the most hardcore fanboys of other libraries, then I wouldn't mind if he expanded and ignored old libraries if it meant getting a few things I'd go crazy for. 

Infinite Pipe Organ
Infinite Choirs
Infinite Pianos
Infinite Harps
Infinite Ethnic Winds (Recorders, Digeridoo, Highland & Uilleann pipes, Duduk, Dizi, Alphorn, etc.)


----------



## DivingInSpace

scoredfilms said:


> Infinite Ethnic Winds (Recorders, Digeridoo, Highland & Uilleann pipes, Duduk, Dizi, Alphorn, etc.)


It actually says on his website that he wants to expand the woodwind library with ethnic winds.


----------



## mussnig

DivingInSpace said:


> It actually says on his website that he wants to expand the woodwind library with ethnic winds.



That sounds great - but where on the website does it say so?


----------



## DivingInSpace

mussnig said:


> That sounds great - but where on the website does it say so?


It used to say it on the woodwind page. Seems like it might have changed though. I am wondering if this means Aaron changed his mind about that?


----------



## szurcio

I would prefer to have the oboe d'amore and basset horn instead of ethnic winds.


----------



## decredis

scoredfilms said:


> I get the economics of making more. If I had millions I'd buy a tiny house and put every last dime into sampling. Money buys help, great AE's, and nice rooms. Aaron is doing genius things, but once his libraries get to a point to where the tone satisfies the most hardcore fanboys of other libraries, then I wouldn't mind if he expanded and ignored old libraries if it meant getting a few things I'd go crazy for.
> 
> Infinite Pipe Organ
> Infinite Choirs
> Infinite Pianos
> Infinite Harps
> Infinite Ethnic Winds (Recorders, Digeridoo, Highland & Uilleann pipes, Duduk, Dizi, Alphorn, etc.)


If I remember rightly, he intends "Ethnic" winds to be a free update to the existing winds somewhen down the line. All the rest would be wonderful to look forward to as new separate products though, for sure. 

EDIT: sorry I missed other posts already saying this


----------



## aaronventure

scoredfilms said:


> Infinite Ethnic Winds


Coming as a free expansion to Infinite Woodwinds at some point. Probably after strings. 



scoredfilms said:


> Infinite Pipe Organ


Not entirely too sure what could I offer here that other libraries don't do well already. VI organs don't run into the same issues that brass, woodwind and string instruments do. 



scoredfilms said:


> Infinite Choirs


I have a few ideas already. Some might take a couple of years to realize.



scoredfilms said:


> Infinite Pianos
> Infinite Harps


Also on the list to be looked into. Although there are a lot of pianos out there. Pianoteq sets the bar for playability and modeling, the only thing I would have to offer there is spaces.


----------



## DANIELE

Infinite Choirs and Infinite Percussion is what I miss to be a complete man.

Some harp would be great too!!


----------



## Sean J

Pianos and organs make sense. I just complain cause the only Organs I've liked are for Hauptwerk (not a composing UX) and VSL (not the best sound). I just want AV everything cause AV is good. 



aaronventure said:


> I have a few ideas already. Some might take a couple of years to realize.



Choirs...

Devs often underestimate the value of being able to choose choir size when writing. Solos, groups, choirs, and large choirs differ so dramatically. Small a cappella sizes do Whitacre brilliantly, a 300+ choir can handle Mahler, JW's winter Olympic theme, and O Magnum the small choir can't. Word building is neat, but Strezov's approach also works well. Personally, I feel that word building is wrong as long as it stays within Kontakt. Until protocols exist in notation or DAW for getting Lyrics into samplers, it it's a rather poor workflow. This may be an incredibly unpopular opinion, but...

I'd rather have SATB a1, a2, a6, a15, a40 and Boy & Girl a1 to a15. Size control extends a library's agility for writing across genres and anyone composing for real choral groups. I'd rather have that over word building that's Jazz-only. Just my two cents. I'd be curious to see what you could do though.


----------



## El Buhdai

Damarus said:


> Name another developer that has done this, ill wait.



Right? What's amazing is that this isn't even close to the first time he's done it (see: the early French Horn overhauls & the more recent Trumpet overhaul & rerecording). I don't know how often his overhauls include a full rerecording but regardless, it's enough to put Aaron's aggressive pro-consumerism in a league of its own. 

At this point, even if I have initial gripes with the tone of Infinite Strings 1.0, I'll be buying it to support his business as a thanks for how much he's spoiling us. IB 1.4 is practically a sequel library and from the sound of that bassoon, IW 1.2 is shaping up to be an update of the same quality.


----------



## aaronventure

scoredfilms said:


> Devs often underestimate the value of being able to choose choir size when writing. Solos, groups, choirs, and large choirs differ so dramatically. Small a cappella sizes do Whitacre brilliantly, a 300+ choir can handle Mahler, JW's winter Olympic theme, and O Magnum the small choir can't. Word building is neat, but Strezov's approach also works well. Personally, I feel that word building is wrong as long as it stays within Kontakt. Until protocols exist in notation or DAW for getting Lyrics into samplers, it it's a rather poor workflow. This may be an incredibly unpopular opinion, but...
> 
> I'd rather have SATB a1, a2, a6, a15, a40 and Boy & Girl a1 to a15. Size control extends a library's agility for writing across genres and anyone composing for real choral groups. I'd rather have that over word building that's Jazz-only. Just my two cents. I'd be curious to see what you could do though.


Well that's easy, I already know how I'd do that. I'd keep it at 20xM, 20xF, though. Everything else would be too much CPU-wise. 

Wordbuilding is what I meant when I said it would take a couple of years. And it wouldn't be in Kontakt.



El Buhdai said:


> Right? What's amazing is that this isn't even close to the first time he's done it (see: the early French Horn overhauls & the more recent Trumpet overhaul & rerecording). I don't know how often his overhauls include a full rerecording but regardless, it's enough to put Aaron's aggressive pro-consumerism in a league of its own.


"Be the change", as they say.


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> At this point, even if I have initial gripes with the tone of Infinite Strings 1.0, I'll be buying it to support his business as a thanks for how much he's spoiling us.


Absolutely. Aaron, if you’d ever need funding for new ideas or concepts, I’d happily preorder stuff months or years in advance at this point. The enthusiasm in this thread reflects real users who are happy fans of your beautiful instruments, with a lot of trust and confidence in your development skills. I bet a lot of us would be willing to preorder. I’d buy Infinite Strings 1.0 now, if I could.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Me too !


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> At this point, even if I have initial gripes with the tone of Infinite Strings 1.0, I'll be buying it to support his business...



Even if IS1 comes and Aaron gets hit by a meteor (something I pray will never happen), and IS2 never happened, I could at least sleep at night knowing IS1 was on my HD. David Hearn said he developed StaffPad because _it just needed to happen_. The world needs Infinite Libraries for the same reason.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Aaron Venture-Infinite Series, their users, and fans.

I don't have any of Aaron Venture, Infinite Series libraries at this time. 

I also notice that most of the discussions/topics about the AV libraries is kind of restricted to this long 88 page thread. I'm not sure why. I have also been noticing a lot of the positive feedback users of AV libraries are posting, which made me get interested in knowing more about this line of libraries, I noticed they are small in terms of memory requirements, compared to the larger GB sized libraries from other developers. So, they are kind of like what Sample Modeling libraries are, with Physical Modeling ? or some other form of instrument emulation that allows for this small sample core content to be sufficient to produce a highly expressive, efficient, realistic, and agile instruments without having tons of Keyswitches.

I would have expected this type of instruments to be running on a dedicated Player, rather than Kontakt, but it seems like Kontakt is able to deliver what the developer needs for now.

So.. When can we expect some Infinite Series Strings to be released ? That would be my main focus and interest.

I know there is already brass, and woodwinds. But, imho. Strings would be the real challenge.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## El Buhdai

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Aaron Venture-Infinite Series, their users, and fans.
> 
> I don't have any of Aaron Venture, Infinite Series libraries at this time.
> 
> I also notice that most of the discussions/topics about the AV libraries is kind of restricted to this long 88 page thread. I'm not sure why. I have also been noticing a lot of the positive feedback users of AV libraries are posting, which made me get interested in knowing more about this line of libraries, I noticed they are small in terms of memory requirements, compared to the larger GB sized libraries from other developers. So, they are kind of like what Sample Modeling libraries are, with Physical Modeling ? or some other form of instrument emulation that allows for this small sample core content to be sufficient to produce a highly expressive, efficient, realistic, and agile instruments without having tons of Keyswitches.
> 
> I would have expected this type of instruments to be running on a dedicated Player, rather than Kontakt, but it seems like Kontakt is able to deliver what the developer needs for now.
> 
> So.. When can we expect some Infinite Series Strings to be released ? That would be my main focus and interest.
> 
> I know there is already brass, and woodwinds. But, imho. Strings would be the real challenge.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp



For your first question:

From what I understand through watching the walkthroughs way too many times and actually popping the hood on these instruments as well, they're created by recording real samples recorded dry and extremely close to (or inside of) the bell. These samples barely sound like the actual instrument being recorded, and many of them honestly just sound like sine waves. Then, through the use of additional samples for other effects like attacks (which tbh just sound like Aaron making breath sounds in his microphone, kinda funny), tons of math, scripting, filtering, and some convolution, you have an Infinite instrument. Even though he's very open about his process, the whole thing is still very much like magic to me and I'd love to understand more.

Maybe one day I'll reach out and ask if he's willing do an interview to share more about how he does this. I'm particularly interested in the math that goes into these instruments (my main guess is tons of trig functions allowing for flutter, growl, etc.) I'd imagine an interview like that might help sell Infinite Strings if the sound turns out to be as impressive as all the work that goes into the creation of the library.

As for an Infinite Strings release date:

We don't have a projected release date for Infinite Strings. If I remember correctly we have a release _window_ from Aaron somewhere in this thread saying it might hopefully be out sometime early next year, but you may wanna do an advanced search on the thread. Don't take my word for it.

And finally, my question to you:

Why are you most interested in Infinite Strings? I can't think of a more saturated market for libraries other than pianos, and any established composer likely has more options than they really need for string ensembles. I only have Hollywood Strings and CSS (most composers have more than two strings libraries it seems) and I'm personally not as excited for Infinite Strings as I am for the upcoming updates for the existing libraries, but I know I'm in the minority there. What makes Infinite Strings more interesting to you than the other libraries?


----------



## Beans

El Buhdai said:


> Even though he's very open about his process, the whole thing is still very much like magic to me and I'd love to understand more.



I'd love to know, as well. I don't need to know, but I'm curious since, as you state, it's kind of like magic. It just _works_, with VERY fast loads. 

I've actually put IB and IW on my slowest drive, and I think load time of Horn 1 goes from, for example, one second on my SSD to 2.5 seconds on an old drive that I think is really just a piece of petrified wood that grew around a cable at some point.


----------



## doctoremmet

Not necessarily MORE interesting than the other two libraries, but absolutely very interesting, for very much the same reasons I figure you like the Infinite instruments yourself.

1. Highly modeled instruments fascinate me on a technical level. I have been following Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling for years, and like where they’re heading. Mockups by the likes of @I like music show their potential.

2. I like developers that strive for perfecting the “one” strings module better than those that crank out tons of different sampled quartets, ensembles, soloists, “hybrid”, “hollywood” or “trailer” string bands. Aaron is a perfectionist. He will make one strings library and perfect it and innovate it over the course of years. That feels good. The sound will be good and get better. It’s like I can be part of a journey.

3. IS will beautifully complement IB and IW. GUI wise, convolution / soundstage wise, playability and UX wise.

4. No keyswitches. Playability. TEControl2. Tweakability. Virtual ensembles AND soloists. It will be cool to find out where this path will lead us.

Some of my personal reasons to be excited about IS


----------



## muziksculp

El Buhdai said:


> What makes Infinite Strings more interesting to you than the other libraries?



Well, Strings are imho. a tough cookie when it comes to sample libraries/physical modeling, or any other type of emulation wizardry. I have a big collection of String Libraries, both Solo and Ensemble, and I'm a bit of an addict when it comes to buying String Libraries.  

I'm also very fond of using woodwinds, and brass. i.e. Woodwind ensembles are pretty good these days to add color, and texture to strings, and brass. Solo Woodwinds is another area that interests me, a very good Oboe, Eng. Horn, Flute, Oboe D'Amore, Bassoon, ...etc. I'm not a big fan of the Clarinet's sound, But I like the Bass Clarinet. 

I use Brass very conservatively, mainly to add some texture, and for rhytmic accenting duties, i.e. on percussion hits, ..etc. I'm not a big fan of loud walls of brass sustains, like the John Williams style, or Big Band type Brass. I use Brass very sparingly, and I think I have more than I need in terms of Brass Libraries. Although I'm interested in a very good Solo Trumpet, which I think Sample Modeling has, also Audio Modeling have good Solo Trumpets. But I haven't rushed to buy any Solo Trumpet yet.


----------



## John R Wilson

I'm currently trying to decide between CSB and IB. I'm still 50/50 on it! It's a shame theirs no way to demo libraries, especially for a library like IB or IW were its main attraction and feature is its playability.


----------



## stfciu

Well, I would wait for a sale but I don't recall any from the past. If it was 30% off I would buy it in a second. Infinite series in my opinion is a holy grail of present sampling and gives terrific results but the price point needs some savings


----------



## Zanshin

stfciu said:


> Well, I would wait for a sale but I don't recall any from the past. If it was 30% off I would buy it in a second. Infinite series in my opinion is a holy grail of present sampling and gives terrific results but the price point needs some savings



I think there was a sale when the last update came out for IB. Maybe again for the IW update?


----------



## lettucehat

John R Wilson said:


> I'm currently trying to decide between CSB and IB. I'm still 50/50 on it! It's a shame theirs no way to demo libraries, especially for a library like IB or IW were its main attraction and feature is its playability.



I second the idea of waiting for a sale, whichever way you go. Might not get one for CSB though.


----------



## John R Wilson

Zanshin said:


> I think there was a sale when the last update came out for IB. Maybe again for the IW update?



How much did it go on sale for?


----------



## Zanshin

Looks like 20% off:





__





Infinite Brass is 20% off in celebration of the 1.4 update!


Originally slated for its one year anniversary which happened to line up with Black Friday, Infinite Brass 1.4 is out and with it a 20% discount! I also remember promising hookers and blackjack, but who needs those when you have new spaces, new amazing trumpets, a piccolo trumpet, extended...




vi-control.net


----------



## John R Wilson

I am very tempted to go for IB over CSB! Does anyone have both CSB and IB and can advice on their opinions between these two libraries?


----------



## Beans

IB in a nutshell:

Way more control over your instruments than CSB, but...
... it pretty much _requires _you to control your instrument for it to not sound like a synth (mostly, some combination of mod wheel dynamics, care with the velocities, vibrato depth, and vibrato rate).
Even just slight adjustments, however, can work magic. My first few notes played made me sad, but once I learned to ride the controls a bit, I saw that the end results can be fantastic.
More instruments (and mutes, like crazy) than CSB.
Techniques like trills must be played (or written into your editor), which is a learning curve but obviously more flexible and fun to play than straight samples (note: "flutter" and "growl" are exceptions, as these are controlled with midi CC).
You can build the section size of your choosing (for Infinite Woodwinds, I think I saw some absurd pairing of a dozen bassoons, just to show off). EDIT: see correction in next post.
Extremely low footprint on RAM.
Several mic/room options (thank goodness, because I don't like one of them).
The developer seems highly committed to free updates.
The developer offers several midi files on the website to help you get through your first days with it.
CSB in a nutshell:

Very lovely tone out of the box with a super simple set of mic mixes. 
Proven success, with some _amazing _demos that have been posted here on VI-C (funny enough, several great CSB demos were posted in a Berlin Brass thread).
"Easy button" double tongue, trills, rips.
No fuss UI.
Probably more "inspiring" than IB, since you need almost no skill to play it, and it has the fun Full Ensemble patch.
If it doesn't quite "sound right," however, you're sort of stuck. If you wanted a different trill or rip, too bad.
The occasional imperfection can make it sound a bit more "human" without any effort.


----------



## Terry93D

Beans said:


> You can build the section size of your choosing (for Infinite Woodwinds, I think I saw some absurd pairing of a dozen bassoons, just to show off).


Nine, actually! :D


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> Not necessarily MORE interesting than the other two libraries, but absolutely very interesting, for very much the same reasons I figure you like the Infinite instruments yourself.
> 
> 1. Highly modeled instruments fascinate me on a technical level. I have been following Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling for years, and like where they’re heading. Mockups by the likes of @I like music show their potential.
> 
> 2. I like developers that strive for perfecting the “one” strings module better than those that crank out tons of different sampled quartets, ensembles, soloists, “hybrid”, “hollywood” or “trailer” string bands. Aaron is a perfectionist. He will make one strings library and perfect it and innovate it over the course of years. That feels good. The sound will be good and get better. It’s like I can be part of a journey.
> 
> 3. IS will beautifully complement IB and IW. GUI wise, convolution / soundstage wise, playability and UX wise.
> 
> 4. No keyswitches. Playability. TEControl2. Tweakability. Virtual ensembles AND soloists. It will be cool to find out where this path will lead us.
> 
> Some of my personal reasons to be excited about IS



1. Same, though I wasn't interested in them prior to discovering this lineup of libraries.

2. I definitely prefer Aaron's approach as well. I haven't bought anything from Spitfire (and don't plan to) precisely _because _of this. When I spend hundreds of dollars on a piece of software that could ultimately cease to exist at any moment, I'd rather feel like it'll be supported in the long term, not that it'll be rendered obsolete with permanent issues when the company behind it gets bored or wants to make more money. Unfortunately though, given the world we live in, I don't know how long Aaron's business model will be sustainable compared to the alternative, so I just want to enjoy it while it lasts and support it in the ways that I can.

3. I can't wait for the day when I load an entire orchestra, all under the Infinite name, with a RAM load under 10 gigs. Hopefully by then I'll have a CPU that's up to the task. My i7-7700K can keep up, but it does strain a bit at times.

4. Yes! Although unfortunately this time there might be one or two for specific things, and I believe there was a message in here somewhere where Aaron said as much. I know he won't compromise on the playability and flexibility that makes Infinite great though.


----------



## El Buhdai

John R Wilson said:


> I am very tempted to go for IB over CSB! Does anyone have both CSB and IB and can advice on their opinions between these two libraries?



I can't speak to what it's like to own CSB, but I'd like to emphasize something that folks keep saying about Infinite Brass. The extremely high sensitivity and flexibility of CC amazing. Being able to hear a noticeable difference between every 1 - 3 values between 0 and 127 as the mod wheel moves is something that nothing else I own offers. At least not on the same level.

When a composer buddy of mine first told me about Infinite and I first started checking out the store page and walkthroughs, the continuous dynamics blew my mind. I immediately knew it would open up so many expressive capabilities because I wouldn't have to bother with learning where the instrument crossfades were to avoid crossing them at specific moments (looking at you, Hollywood Brass trombones).

And keep in mind the tone for much of the brass at that time wasn't so good either (and I wouldn't notice for a very long time until we were approaching IB 1.4), but I was still infatuated by what it was trying to do. Now that we have every benefit that Infinite wants to provide for us AND the tone is getting closer and closer to traditional libraries? You can forget it. I haven't bought another brass library and probably never will unless it can beat Infinite's flexibility and tone at the same time.


----------



## Zanshin

Beans said:


> IB in a nutshell:
> 
> ... it pretty much _requires _you to control your instrument for it to not sound like a synth (mostly, some combination of mod wheel dynamics, care with the velocities, vibrato depth, and vibrato rate).



Is IB harder than SM to get a good sound out of? Of the SM instruments I only have experience with the trumpet. It sounds great (to me) with not all that much effort though and feels super expressive to play.

Edit: I'm convinced it CAN sound great from what I have heard. I'm just wondering how hard that is to achieve.


----------



## Beans

Zanshin said:


> Is IB harder than SM to get a good sound out of? Of the SM instruments I only have experience with the trumpet. It sounds great (to me) with not all that much effort though and feels super expressive to play.



I've never used one of the SM instruments, but it's not at all difficult with IB (in my opinion). It's just that playing with one arm behind your back in CSB gets you something that's... eh... almost acceptable. Whereas the same with IB is more rough.

You know how (almost) everyone loves Cinematic Studio Strings, but accepts that you have to mess with the timing to get the legato right? IB is similar in that it's just going to be "off" until you start touching the controls - but as soon as you lay a finger on even just one of them, it springs to life.


----------



## Zanshin

Yeah I'm one of the few who don't love CSS, but I understand what you are saying lol.


----------



## I like music

John R Wilson said:


> I am very tempted to go for IB over CSB! Does anyone have both CSB and IB and can advice on their opinions between these two libraries?


I think I replied in your other thread. Someone else just gave a better summary than I could a few posts ago. 

In a nutshell, I removed csb from my template once I got ib. Both are excellent. But the sheer control of this is unmatched. Vibrato control alone is enough for me in solo instruments. 

You'll be happy with either. Happier with ib since you can play everything with it, and there are tone and tons more instruments.


----------



## John R Wilson

I like music said:


> I think I replied in your other thread. Someone else just gave a better summary than I could a few posts ago.
> 
> In a nutshell, I removed csb from my template once I got ib. Both are excellent. But the sheer control of this is unmatched. Vibrato control alone is enough for me in solo instruments.
> 
> You'll be happy with either. Happier with ib since you can play everything with it, and there are tone and tons more instruments.



What is the sound/tone like in comparison to CSB?


----------



## VSriHarsha

No body talkin about the legatos? How would IB tackle that? I mean if the imported midi got Music which has legato notated.


----------



## I like music

John R Wilson said:


> What is the sound/tone like in comparison to CSB?


Csb personally had something special for me. Initially I preferred csb but now they are about par. Csb had this nice resonant room but which was a tiny bit better, but now since 1.4 they are very close. I can easily chuck a nice reverb onto ib and most people wouldn't know the difference. 

Lower brass, perhaps csb shaded it. But that I feel was because of the very naturally sampled articulations. 

Then again I've even heard detractors of csb's tone! So on pure tone, hard to say for me. 

As an overall package, IB no question.


----------



## I like music

VSriHarsha said:


> No body talkin about the legatos? How would IB tackle that? I mean if the imported midi got Music which has legato notated.


Super consistent. Easiest library to use when flicking between connected and non connected music. Most natural (except sample modeling)


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

Anyone know when 1.2 Woodwinds are coming for IWW?


----------



## doctoremmet

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Anyone know when 1.2 Woodwinds are coming for IWW?


No. Sooner rather than later. Aaron did recently say he is still actively working on some instruments (flutes). So I am thinking this summer / early autumn.


----------



## VSriHarsha

I like music said:


> Super consistent. Easiest library to use when flicking between connected and non connected music. Most natural (except sample modeling)


Wow! That's nice but sample modeling? I didn't get that. That's not a Sample Modeling product right? Or may be Aaron Ventures are sample modelled?


----------



## doctoremmet

VSriHarsha said:


> Wow! That's nice but sample modeling? I didn't get that. That's not a Sample Modeling product right? Or may be Aaron Ventures are sample modelled?


He means Sample Modeling instruments (such as The Trumpet) may sound even more natural / have an even more authentic tone. At least, that’s my interpretation.

Btw, yes: Aaron uses samples as core material but as he states himself a lot of the sound depends on maths! So literally a lot of modeling is at the heart of IB and IW.


----------



## I like music

I'm betting on an August release.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> I'm betting on an August release.


Yes, I'm getting that vibe. And didn't Aaron tease the possibility of cimbassi coming in the summer specifically? September often *feels* like summer, but semantically belongs to autumn.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> Yes, I'm getting that vibe. And didn't Aaron tease the possibility of cimbassi coming in the summer specifically? September often *feels* like summer, but semantically belongs to autumn.



Also his level of activity on the forum has increased. Usually that happens shortly before release. Also if he's dropped a bassoon demo then he's close.

Super excited to have the woods in the same space as tbe brass!


----------



## muziksculp

How good are the IW Oboe and English Horn ? 

Any demos where they are used as the featured melodic instrument, nicely exposed to easily evaluate i.e. in an orchestral context ?


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> his level of activity on the forum has increased. Usually that happens shortly before...



4 more uses of the word "release"
3 more demos
2 more replies saying "it's basically done"
Profile pic change, omg omg omg
silence for 3 days
OMG OMG OMG!!!!







I mean I'm not trying to call you a creep or anything. Really. But if anyone on this thread was found sitting outside AV's window waiting to see if he combed his hair differently and if that was a sign IS was done, I'm pretty sure we all know who it would be.


----------



## Sean J

And am I saying I also don't pay careful psychological attention to every word Aaron posts?

No, no I'm not.


----------



## I like music

muziksculp said:


> How good are the IW Oboe and English Horn ?
> 
> Any demos where they are used as the featured melodic instrument, nicely exposed to easily evaluate i.e. in an orchestral context ?


In my John Williams mockup you can hear them both in solos with some expression. 

I absolutely love them. Again, the expression you can get and control basically wins it for me.


----------



## I like music

scoredfilms said:


> 4 more uses of the word "release"
> 3 more demos
> 2 more replies saying "it's basically done"
> Profile pic change, omg omg omg
> silence for 3 days
> OMG OMG OMG!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean I'm not trying to call you a creep or anything. Really. But if anyone on this thread was found sitting outside AV's window waiting to see if he combed his hair differently and if that was a sign IS was done, I'm pretty sure we all know who it would be.


If it weren't for the restraining order, I'd still be camped outside his studio. 

That and the fact that I'm a conscientious creep/stalker, so I like to practise social distancing.


----------



## muziksculp

I like music said:


> In my John Williams mockup you can hear them both in solos with some expression.
> 
> I absolutely love them. Again, the expression you can get and control basically wins it for me.



Cool, but where is your JW demo ? Link ?


----------



## doctoremmet

scoredfilms said:


> 4 more uses of the word "release"
> 3 more demos
> 2 more replies saying "it's basically done"
> Profile pic change, omg omg omg
> silence for 3 days
> OMG OMG OMG!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean I'm not trying to call you a creep or anything. Really. But if anyone on this thread was found sitting outside AV's window waiting to see if he combed his hair differently and if that was a sign IS was done, I'm pretty sure we all know who it would be.


Remember we used to have “Kremlin watchers”? Remember those big journalistic high-brow newspaper articles about what it means when Kim Jung Un’s niece suddenly sits next to him when he launches a rocket? This is just as important if not way MORE important. We need to check Aaron’s haircut, we need to go through his trash to see if his pizza intake has recently increased and we need to monitor his sleep patterns. All these signs can tell us MORE! It’s a dirty job, yes. But we are the Kremlin watchers of this day and age. For the greater good.


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> Remember we used to have “Kremlin watchers”? Remember those big journalistic high-brow newspaper articles about what it means when Kim Jung Un’s niece suddenly sits next to him when he launches a rocket? This is just as important if not way MORE important. We need to check Aaron’s haircut, we need to go through his trash to see if his pizza intake has recently increased and we need to monitor his sleep patterns. All these signs can tell us MORE! It’s a dirty job, yes. But we are the Kremlin watchers of this day and age. For the greater good.


Aaronologists. Venture-theorists. Disciples of the Infinite Anticipation.


----------



## doctoremmet

I myself am part of a splinter faction called The True Infinitists. We have deciphered the TRUE meaning of Infinite Brass 1.3 and renounce 1.4. But we do still highly anticipate Infinite Strings.


----------



## Damarus

This thread is great. Can't imagine what Aaron thinks when skimming through all this


----------



## doctoremmet

muziksculp said:


> Cool, but where is your JW demo ? Link ?







__





LOL - I mocked up John Williams 'Adventures on Earth' (Infinite Series + SM strings)


Before you listen, please keep in mind: 1) I haven't sorted my mix out. I actually don't know how to. Still learning all that business. 2) I can't really read music, so copying 320 bars of absolutely furious John Williams' writing was fucking difficult. Transposing instruments can go fuck...




vi-control.net


----------



## Damarus

Aaannnd i think the updated version as well?


----------



## Sean J

doctoremmet said:


> Remember we used to have “Kremlin watchers”? Remember those big journalistic high-brow newspaper articles about what it means when Kim Jung Un’s niece suddenly sits next to him when he launches a rocket? This is just as important if not way MORE important. We need to check Aaron’s haircut, we need to go through his trash to see if his pizza intake has recently increased and we need to monitor his sleep patterns. All these signs can tell us MORE! It’s a dirty job, yes. But we are the Kremlin watchers of this day and age. For the greater good.



I initially typed "At least Doc Emmet just paces the sidewalk to pretend he's not watching" but I thought it would be better for you to chime in.

Like IS, worth the wait.


----------



## Sean J

Damarus said:


> This thread is great. Can't imagine what Aaron thinks when skimming through all this



Oh this isn't the first rodeo we've had together. The best of VI-Control is on here. Easily.


----------



## I like music

Damarus said:


> This thread is great. Can't imagine what Aaron thinks when skimming through all this


Scared, probably!


----------



## I like music

Damarus said:


> Aaannnd i think the updated version as well?




Thank you for finding it. I couldn't locate my own mockup @doctoremmet @Damarus 

@muziksculp both are the same mockup but with different reverbs/ambience. Looking forward to updating it with 1.2 Woods.


----------



## Damarus

@aaronventure do you suspect the price of IB/IW Bundle + IS strings upgrade would be the same price as all 3 bundled when IS comes out? 

That may give me more debt sooner rather than later.


----------



## muziksculp

I like music said:


> Thank you for finding it. I couldn't locate my own mockup @doctoremmet @Damarus
> 
> @muziksculp both are the same mockup but with different reverbs/ambience. Looking forward to updating it with 1.2 Woods.



Hi @I like music ,

I'm listening carefully to your first version JW mockup. Thanks. 

I will listen to the newer version as well. The brass,and the Sample Modeling Strings sound awesome. 

But, It is harder to evaluate the Solo Woodwinds in your demo, (Oboe, and Eng-Horn) in a large symphonic context like the JW Piece. I was thinking more of an intimate piece, more minimal orchestration, i.e. a Cello, Piano, and an Oboe (Trio), basically more exposed, up close, and intimate orchestration so the woodwinds are more exposed so one can hear the timbre, colors, dynamics of the Oboe, and Eng.Horn. and all the little details. 

Making this JW mockup using mostly modeled instruments is quite encouraging and makes me happy to see this type of technology catching up fast to the more traditional sample libraries. It's time we move forward, with modeling technology, which imho. is more flexible, less resource hungry in terms of memory has a very bright future.


----------



## I like music

muziksculp said:


> Hi @I like music ,
> 
> I'm listening carefully to your first version JW mockup. Thanks.
> 
> I will listen to the newer version as well. The brass,and the Sample Modeling Strings sound awesome.
> 
> But, It is harder to evaluate the Solo Woodwinds in your demo, (Oboe, and Eng-Horn) in a large symphonic context like the JW Piece. I was thinking more of an intimate piece, more minimal orchestration, i.e. a Cello, Piano, and an Oboe (Trio), basically more exposed, up close, and intimate orchestration so the woodwinds are more exposed so one can hear the timbre, colors, dynamics of the Oboe, and Eng.Horn. and all the little details.
> 
> Making this JW mockup using mostly modeled instruments is quite encouraging and makes me happy to see this type of technology catching up fast to the more traditional sample libraries. It's time we move forward, with modeling technology, which imho. is more flexible, less resource hungry in terms of memory has a very bright future.


Thank you! I should have mentioned that there are a couple of bits where you hear some English horn and oboe in that solo context. 

I also did a Jerry Goldsmith Mulan mockup where you hear much more of the oboe in a solo expressive context. Will try to find it and post. 

If you search for mulan in thread titles you'll find it on here in sure. 

Like you I'm also glad that this sort of tech is catching up very quickly for this kind of music.


----------



## I like music

muziksculp said:


> Hi @I like music ,
> 
> I'm listening carefully to your first version JW mockup. Thanks.
> 
> I will listen to the newer version as well. The brass,and the Sample Modeling Strings sound awesome.
> 
> But, It is harder to evaluate the Solo Woodwinds in your demo, (Oboe, and Eng-Horn) in a large symphonic context like the JW Piece. I was thinking more of an intimate piece, more minimal orchestration, i.e. a Cello, Piano, and an Oboe (Trio), basically more exposed, up close, and intimate orchestration so the woodwinds are more exposed so one can hear the timbre, colors, dynamics of the Oboe, and Eng.Horn. and all the little details.
> 
> Making this JW mockup using mostly modeled instruments is quite encouraging and makes me happy to see this type of technology catching up fast to the more traditional sample libraries. It's time we move forward, with modeling technology, which imho. is more flexible, less resource hungry in terms of memory has a very bright future.


Btw if you have any midi files you want mocked up with iw, post them here. I'm fairly sure one of us will put it through iw and post the results for you to hear


----------



## muziksculp

@I like music ,

Thanks. I will try to find your Mulan demo. 

I actually like the second version you posted with the different reverb/ambience better than the first one, it is more transparent, and you can hear the orchestral textures in more detail. 

Do you have any of the Audio Modeling Woodwind Instruments ?


----------



## aaronventure

Damarus said:


> @aaronventure do you suspect the price of IB/IW Bundle + IS strings upgrade would be the same price as all 3 bundled when IS comes out?


I 100% guarantee it. That's the whole deal with my bundles. Always be able to buy a single product and then crossgrade to a bundle and still pay the same (or less, if you bought something on sale).


----------



## I like music

muziksculp said:


> @I like music ,
> 
> Thanks. I will try to find your Mulan demo.
> 
> I actually like the second version you posted with the different reverb/ambience better than the first one, it is more transparent, and you can hear the orchestral textures in more detail.
> 
> Do you have any of the Audio Modeling Woodwind Instruments ?



Thanks. Yep, I prefer this version because the strings are clearer. I'm trying to find a middle ground between both versions. Very challenging! 

I used to have AM winds but I do not anymore. They were SUPER expressive. The tone wasn't right for me though. Tweakability was excellent but something was off in the tone for this kind of stuff. That said I'm sure I've heard others get good results with them oexhestrally.


----------



## muziksculp

I like music said:


> Thanks. Yep, I prefer this version because the strings are clearer. I'm trying to find a middle ground between both versions. Very challenging!
> 
> I used to have AM winds but I do not anymore. They were SUPER expressive. The tone wasn't right for me though. Tweakability was excellent but something was off in the tone for this kind of stuff. That said I'm sure I've heard others get good results with them oexhestrally.



Thanks for the feedback.

Do you know what the IW 1.2 updtate will improve, or add to the current version ? 

I don't have any AV Libraries at this time, but that could change.


----------



## doctoremmet

@I like music Your mastery of Sample Modeling strings is something else. This JW demo nearly caused me to buy them. However, I have promised @Batrawi ”no more string library purchases before IS1”
(I hope he has not noticed I did get Embertone stuff)


----------



## doctoremmet

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Do you know what the IW 1.2 updtate will improve, or add to the current version ?
> 
> I don't have any AV Libraries at this time, but that could change.


Basically, it will do for IW what 1.4 did to IB. So, sound stage improvements. Tonal improvements. In short: same playability, better sounding instruments. Better flutes, although I already quite like the 1.1 ones. Other people may be able to explain in more detail / better - I notice I’m getting tired (past my bedtime).


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> @I like music Your mastery of Sample Modeling strings is something else. This JW demo nearly caused me to buy them. However, I have promised @Batrawi ”no more string library purchases before IS1” (I hope he has not noticed I did get Embertone stuff)


Haha thanks but I'd beg to differ. I'm just stumbling through SM strings. Still have a million to things to learn about them. Hoping to see more updates from them on tone of Lower strings. They already did an overhaul which was appreciated but I feel the cellos are lacking a slight something... However, it is equally likely I'm messing up the tone a bit due to how I've set the strings up. Between is and sm I hope I have all the strings I ever need.


----------



## Batrawi

doctoremmet said:


> @I like music Your mastery of Sample Modeling strings is something else. This JW demo nearly caused me to buy them. However, I have promised @Batrawi ”no more string library purchases before IS1”
> (I hope he has not noticed I did get Embertone stuff)


you know what... a little cheap string library wouldn't really hurt to calm our impatience until IS is released...
(now let me go check those new 8dio deep quartet series)


----------



## doctoremmet

Batrawi said:


> you know what... a little cheap string library wouldn't really hurt to calm our impatience until IS is released...
> (now let me go check those new 8dio deep quartet series)


(8dio does have a flash sale, freebies when you spend >298, the bundler is still up and my beloved 1985 Passionate Piano (did I mention it is my favorite piano?) is only $48, so I would be easy on you...)


----------



## Batrawi

doctoremmet said:


> (8dio does have a flash sale, freebies when you spend >298, the bundler is still up and my beloved 1985 Passionate Piano (did I mention it is my favorite piano?) is only $48, so I would be easy on you...)


Actually that 1985 piano has been haunting me from the first time I heard it and I cannot get the beauty of its sound out of my head till date. I just saw the $48 sale today which is a steal that only an idiot can pass....yet due to constraints in budget, I just had to resist (yes I'm that idiot guy) cause I know I would be in need of those $48 once IS comes out...


----------



## ansthenia

Reading through this thread, I'm think I'm going to buy these infinite libraries simply to support Aaron. Prioritising updates for current libraries over pushing new ones out, and being super generous with what these free updates are offering.


----------



## El Buhdai

ansthenia said:


> Reading through this thread, I'm think I'm going to buy these infinite libraries simply to support Aaron. Prioritising updates for current libraries over pushing new ones out, and being super generous with what these free updates are offering.



Hooray! I hope you enjoy them as much as we do. Welcome to our small and ironically titled "Infinite Family".


----------



## Kent

I just got the brass myself (finally!) 

I’ve never been truly happy with a brass library I owned until this one. Always seem to encounter some weird inconsistencies between instruments, but not here. Very satisfied customer!!


----------



## Sean J

Batrawi said:


> you know what... a little cheap string library wouldn't really hurt to calm our impatience until IS is released...
> (now let me go check those new 8dio deep quartet series)



Performance Samples. Jasper does great things and never really does a "complete" library. That ought to wet the pallet without threatening to diminish one's desire to obtain Infinite Strings. 



kmaster said:


> I just got the brass myself (finally!)
> 
> I’ve never been truly happy with a brass library I owned until this one. Always seem to encounter some weird inconsistencies between instruments, but not here. Very satisfied customer!!



Exactly. Exactly exactly exactly!

That is EXACTLY how I felt once the download finished. There's just no looking back. Even the thought of it is laughable! No weird inconsistencies is putting it mildly though. I feel like it's as close any any library has ever been to what it feels like to pick up a trumpet and play.

Sigh............... exactly! lol


----------



## ansthenia

Is the 1.2 woodwind update going to be accompanied with a sale, similar to the earlier 1.4 update for the brass?


----------



## vicontrolu

Regarding strings..the solo & ensemble from Samplemodelling is the closest to what we'd expect from ISS right? Just heard demos and videos yesterday for the first time and was very impressed!

I am curious to check some opinions of users who have them (or Aaron himself ). What flaws on this library do you think could be improved in ISS, if any? In what possible way could ISS surpass samllemodeling features?

Looking forward to the woodwinds!


----------



## Batrawi

vicontrolu said:


> Regarding strings..the solo & ensemble from Samplemodelling is the closest to what we'd expect from ISS right? Just heard demos and videos yesterday for the first time and was very impressed!
> 
> I am curious to check some opinions of users who have them (or Aaron himself ). What flaws on this library do you think could be improved in ISS, if any? In what possible way could ISS surpass samllemodeling features?
> 
> Looking forward to the woodwinds!



I own SMS and with all due respect to it and SampleModeling team, I would never touch IS if it's anything like it. Here is some feedback & concerns I provided earlier in regards to SMS which should give you an idea why:



Batrawi said:


> So...I pulled the trigger and bought this one. I wasn't really putting high hopes but I knew that worst case scenario I was going to get a 'playdough' strings library which I can enjoy shaping and sketching with at the least... Truth is though, my expectations were exceeded! And unlike other libraries, this one does sound better under your fingers (when you shape it to your taste) than when you would usually hear it in other people's demos !
> 
> *Bottom line:*
> The library sounds very good as a solo strings library but still needs a lot of work in order to sound like real ensemble. Though the developers have really done a great job so far with the ensemble builder/randomizer engine, and I think it is really a good starting point for the better to come.
> 
> *Pros:*
> -amazing playability(stating the obvious)
> -the sound of the solo instruments is leaning to the natural side despite the technology that is heavily based on modelling (comparing it to AM's strings for example, the tone of this one is indeed a step forward)
> 
> *Things that annoy me (bugs ?):*
> -vibrato delay: no matter how I increase this delay towards the 127 value , I still randomly get an immediate vibrato with note attacks or legato transitions. Not sure what's causing this to happen or if this control could hiddenly/mistakenly be affected by velocity as well?
> -the bow noise works fine with the violin, however when increased with the viola and cello, I start hearing a very slight distortion/growling in the sound of the instruments itself.
> -Sometimes the vibrato affects/continues with the release noise/resonance, despite in reality it must immediately stop when lifting the fingers off the strings (I noticed this in the ensemble mode)
> -some pizz notes sound very thin as if hair is being plucked as opposed to strings. The pizz articulation is overall very nice though.
> 
> *Suggestion:*
> I think the main reason why this library can usually sound weird/synthy, is because -in concept- it is like a body with flesh but without bones!..In other words, the sound signature of the instruments may have been captured very well, yet without the natural "dirt" that would accompany it in real life. For example, the only noise layer we have in this library is the bow noise. I think other noise layers(with volume control) could have been added to increase realism. For example:
> -finger noise sliding on the string when searching/moving to the next note.
> -finger noise tapping/pressing the string against the instrument body at the start of each note.
> -maybe including a legato volume control would be nice to have
> -etc...
> Now someone may think "such tiny things will never be noticed/heard in context". True BUT, these tiny things in reality are an integral part of the context! You do not see the body's bones yet due to its hidden existence, you do see the body's structure/shape. These are the mechanic noises fused with the sonic signature in the real world and therefore should be added back when trying to replicate the instrument in the virtual world IMHO.
> 
> Overall, it is really a pleasant library to play and experiment with and I can see the potential of it becoming considerably better with future updates.
> 
> Good job SM, I really appreciate the effort done with this one even though I admit I wasn't very optimistic at the first impression



Here's also what I wish Aaron should be mindful of (and I'm sure he already is) when developing IS:




Batrawi said:


> same here. I'm sure Aaron will get the tone right, BUT... it's the scripted legato in such libraries that can make it or break it. That's my biggest fear since other libraries that followed this approach didn't end up sounding convincing at all IMHO including SM strings which I already have... The only exception where I heard a good scripted string legato is the 100% modelled AM strings. I hope Aaron can make something equivalent to this one at least, otherwise we'll hear that uncanny quality right away no matter how the tone was done right. And no... strings libraries do not react well to scripted legato as brass libraries which on contrary can sound great (SMB and IB for eg.) which would require a different kind of sorcery.


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> I own SMS and with all due respect to it and SampleModeling team, I would never touch IS if it's anything like it. Here is some feedback & concerns I provided earlier in regards to SMS which should give you an idea why:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's also what I wish Aaron should be mindful of (and I'm sure he already is) when developing IS:
> 
> 
> 
> I own SMS and with all due respect to it and SampleModeling team, I would never touch IS if it's anything like it. Here is some feedback & concerns I provided earlier in regards to SMS which should give you an idea why:



What do you think of cellos? Curious to see what Aaron does wit lower strings. 

Interesting about vibrato continuing on release! Perhaps this is what has been bugging me a bit (wonder if this affects transitions) 

Would love some "grit" and rasp from the strings!


----------



## Sean J

I hate sample modeling.

Are they terrible? No. Agile, sure. But a quality option? While many oppose the idea out of an idealist "but it aint real" mentality. I only do because the sound is off and I just can't get over that.







The new woodwinds are new samples, new methods, etc. Even where Aaron is starting out now is miles ahead of Sample Modeling IMHO.

I added reverb because I suspect that's the one of the biggest challenges in improving the tone. The way a room EQ's and modulates the sound over time is technically captured in convolution, but a real sense of depth and dimension, of living in the space, has never been achieved IMHO. If you played Infinite Brass dry... but inside Lyndhurst... I'm sure it would still sound better than reverb would. 

Rooms magnify the instrument's size and the sound is shaped over time. Many incorrectly say that modulation is missing. Convolution modulates the sound.... but the resulting depth is often way off, or very inconsistent at least. Aaron gets as close as anyone ever does. I still think he can improve here, especially for the sake of the ensemble results tone-wise, but Infinite 1.4 is a massive leap ahead of 1.0 in this regard. Someday Infinite 2 will happen. So I'm not worried about this at all. It's just worth noting why I think the two are related.

Infinite is just miles ahead of sample modeling for me, more for tone than agility, because of where it sits on the uncanny chart for me.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> I hate sample modeling.
> 
> Are they terrible? No. Agile, sure. But a quality option? While many oppose the idea out of an idealist "but it aint real" mentality. I only do because the sound is off and I just can't get over that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new woodwinds are new samples, new methods, etc. Even where Aaron is starting out now is miles ahead of Sample Modeling IMHO.
> 
> I added reverb because I suspect that's the one of the biggest challenges in improving the tone. The way a room EQ's and modulates the sound over time is technically captured in convolution, but a real sense of depth and dimension, of living in the space, has never been achieved IMHO. If you played Infinite Brass dry... but inside Lyndhurst... I'm sure it would still sound better than reverb would.
> 
> Rooms magnify the instrument's size and the sound is shaped over time. Many incorrectly say that modulation is missing. Convolution modulates the sound.... but the resulting depth is often way off, or very inconsistent at least. Aaron gets as close as anyone ever does. I still think he can improve here, especially for the sake of the ensemble results tone-wise, but Infinite 1.4 is a massive leap ahead of 1.0 in this regard. Someday Infinite 2 will happen. So I'm not worried about this at all. It's just worth noting why I think the two are related.
> 
> Infinite is just miles ahead of sample modeling for me, more for tone than agility, because of where it sits on the uncanny chart for me.



I find your first paragraph interesting because I had similar issues with IB 1.3 and the current IW (especially the weaker instruments in the library) after the honeymoon phase, but you weren't able to understand my criticisms of the tone until I pointed out that it wasn't the general shape of the instruments that was the issue, but the little things that were missing. The sound was off, and I couldn't get over it. 

This is still the case for most of Infinite Woodwinds 1.2, particularly the weakest/synthiest instruments like the English Horn, Bassoons, and Flutes of course. Infinite Brass 1.4 is a different story, as Aaron has captured the illusion of real instruments so well that I no longer care about the weaknesses in the sound of most of the instruments. 

As for your third paragraph, I'd like to disagree. Tone issues aside, Infinite provides a better sense of space and depth than sampled mic positions ever did for me. Everything just feels like it's in place. I've often found sampled mic positions to have differences so subtle that they're hardly worth the higher storage and RAM required to use them in larger projects. Even in walkthroughs for libraries where folks are hyped for specific mics, I always find myself saying "Wait, that's it? And I'm supposed to dedicate an extra 50 - 100 GB of storage for a difference that subtle?". 

This was especially how I felt when looking into the enormous BBCSO. The subtle differences aren't worth the hardware costs to me, nor would they be very noticeable to anyone other than composers.


----------



## Batrawi

I like music said:


> What do you think of cellos?



Don't know how to explain it, but playing a single note (either with cellos or any other SMS section) will sound acceptably natural... start moving CCs and connecting notes, it'll sound incredibly responsive but creepy at the same time.


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> I've often found sampled mic positions to have differences so subtle that they're hardly worth the higher storage and RAM required to use them in larger projects. Even in walkthroughs for libraries where folks are hyped for specific mics, I always find myself saying "Wait, that's it? And I'm supposed to dedicate an extra 50 - 100 GB of storage for a difference that subtle?".
> 
> This was especially how I felt when looking into the enormous BBCSO. The subtle differences aren't worth the hardware costs to me, nor would they be very noticeable to anyone other than composers.



This. Very much this.

I never understood the need for so many mic positions. They are rarely useful, considering most of us use reverb on top of the samples anyways? It also adds to the premium for something we didn't ask for?

I think we have some amazing sample libraries out there, and I own some of them. But really when it comes down to working on something, its really quite annoying to look past the play-ability of a library because of the "amazing tone" or simply because we accept that's how sampling is.


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> Don't know how to explain it, but playing a single note (either with cellos or any other SMS section) will sound acceptably natural... start moving CCs and connecting notes, it'll sound incredibly responsive but creepy at the same time.


I find that when matching tone with other libraries, individual lines sound indistinguishable. However I do hit the uncanny valley more often when I put an ensemble together. Still love the strings and will try till my dyng day to squeeze out every inch of realism that I can, whether that is spacialisation or performance. 

Curious to know of the SM team will release updates. 

Anyways back to Infinite, I am upping my bet and think they will be released within the next few days. 

Any comment on the above claim @aaronventure 

If I lose this bet, some gangsters will break my legs.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> I find your first paragraph interesting because I had similar issues with IB 1.3 and the current IW (especially the weaker instruments in the library) after the honeymoon phase, but you weren't able to understand my criticisms of the tone until I pointed out that it wasn't the general shape of the instruments that was the issue, but the little things that were missing. The sound was off, and I couldn't get over it.



Well, I'm semi-mixed on this. And my views change in time.

1) I don't feel like IB has tone issues, at the instrument level. With some IB recordings and some EQ, I was happy. Then I got IB 1.4 and everything was great.
2) When I A/B a Tuba or Horn, and play Spitfire and Infinite together, they blend brilliantly. But ensembles blend less brilliantly. Still CAN sound great IMHO, but due to the limits of convolution it can still take tweaking to get that right.

That said, I still stand by the early point of Rhapsody in Blue demo sounding like a recording. One made in Lyndhurst? No, but a recording. We grow accustomed to a "certain sound" we like. I'm a bit snobby about reverb and rooms. Lyndhurst isn't the only good room, but they capture it very well. I think Infinite could improve in that regard. I just don't think it's prohibitive. More IR's, and more work on making the most of convolution, might help. Don't know. I'm happy with IB 1.4 though.



El Buhdai said:


> As for your third paragraph, I'd like to disagree. Tone issues aside, Infinite provides a better sense of space and depth than sampled mic positions ever did for me. Everything just feels like it's in place. I've often found sampled mic positions to have differences so subtle that they're hardly worth the higher storage and RAM required to use them in larger projects. Even in walkthroughs for libraries where folks are hyped for specific mics, I always find myself saying "Wait, that's it? And I'm supposed to dedicate an extra 50 - 100 GB of storage for a difference that subtle?".
> 
> This was especially how I felt when looking into the enormous BBCSO. The subtle differences aren't worth the hardware costs to me, nor would they be very noticeable to anyone other than composers.



I agree with this... There's just more to it IMHO.

Spitfire has NEVER been as clear directionally as recordings I A/B'd it against. HA! No, in some favorite JW recordings I can point to the trumpet, easily. Most wet sample libraries are too wet for their own good. Eventually my Spitfire template was 100% close mic, 30% tree, and with the stereo width and panning tweaked until it matched my favorite recording for space, depth, panning, etc. (Raiders) Infinite is basically already there, and with less RAM. Couldn't love that more.

In that sense, I agree. Infinite is very pointed, very clear, very intimate in a way. But...

In the flute demos here, and here, there's a beautiful room to it. Infinite's (v1.1) flute, despite various issues, still sounds similar space wise. He does convolution very well. I'd say it's like 98% there, enough to not even care anymore. But brass in ensembles lose a little bit of the rich response of the room to me. It's then 90%. When I say "depth", I'm not talking about convincing depth. I'm talking about the richness of the tone of the depth in a room.

That said, it's Still VERY usable and enough for me to drop other libraries, because it's still very comparable to various recordings. But I think there's a slight drop. I just felt like some early complaints about tone were based entirely on wanting it to sound like Spitfire and I felt like that was unfair. So I probably argued a bit heavy handedly back then, sorry.

I'm not sure if I'm being very clear, but I still feel I agree with your points.

The only thing I'd really like to see improve in Infinite, to be honest, isn't with Infinite. It's Kontakt KSP. I'd like to have a way to humanize note lengths within Kontakt.


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure sorry one question regarding instrument positions. When the new woods are released, will position 3 of let's say oboe 1 be exactly the same in depth as horns or will it typically be slightly in front? Not sure if the question makes sense but I reckon you'll know what I'm trying to ask. I'm on a beach with no real Internet and running after the kids so cannot spend too long asking questions correctly!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> If I lose this bet, some gangsters will break my legs.
> 
> Anyways back to Infinite, I am upping my bet and think they will be released within the next few days.



I volunteer to be one of those gangsters. Maybe that'll be some encouragement for Aaron to make our dreams come true. 🤣

I think I speak for everyone when I say VI-C likes you, but I also know you'd gladly take some time in crutches to get our update faster, right? After all, you don't need legs to use Infinite Woodwinds 1.3.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I volunteer to be one of those gangsters. Maybe that'll be some encouragement for Aaron to make our dreams come true. 🤣
> 
> I think I speak for everyone when I say VI-C likes you, but I also know you'd gladly take some time in crutches to get our update faster, right? After all, you don't need legs to use Infinite Woodwinds 1.3.


I can't even play notes into DAW, and I use only a mouse, so only need one hand. I'd happily lose the left arm for a few weeks if it means getting the update faster.


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> @aaronventure sorry one question regarding instrument positions. When the new woods are released, will position 3 of let's say oboe 1 be exactly the same in depth as horns or will it typically be slightly in front? Not sure if the question makes sense but I reckon you'll know what I'm trying to ask. I'm on a beach with no real Internet and running after the kids so cannot spend too long asking questions correctly!


They're closer than brass. Also row 3 is gone, it's only 2 rows now. The old IRs were done way back before I had percussion in mind. So row 3 had to go.

There's still plenty of standard positions (36 per room).


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> I volunteer to be one of those gangsters. Maybe that'll be some encouragement for Aaron to make our dreams come true. 🤣
> 
> I think I speak for everyone when I say VI-C likes you, but I also know you'd gladly take some time in crutches to get our update faster, right? ... Right?



I sent *this pic* to him privately yesterday to avoid derailing the thread... we really should focus on Infinite. But it's worth saying that picking on ilikemusic is IMHO EQUALLY important to appreciating AV's efforts.

On that note, here's some Brass in a less traditional context for those who'd want to hear that.



The Brass was an after thought I added 30 minutes ago. It's fairly raw, not a polished demo at all... but it at least offers something else for the thread. I wanted to add this to share that while I think tone can improve, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Bösendorfers improve. Stradivarius improved at making violins. The models from the previous year were still utterly brilliant.  I'm very pleased with this tone-wise as well as agility.

There's a bass bone, contrabass bone, and Tuba, then 6 horns, and 18 other tracks for the thing I'm working on... on my Surface Book 2 15" (tablet specs, not laptop). Runs just fine.


----------



## El Buhdai

Your daily reminder that the Fantasy for Trumpet demo for IB 1.4 exists, uses one patch + zero keyswitches, and it somehow isn't taking VI-C (or virtual composing as a whole) by storm. Is there any justice in this world?

I mean just _listen_ to that thing! The fact I have libraries that can do that right now still doesn't feel real and hasn't felt real since Aaron first showed it off prior to the update.


----------



## Jamus

For me it's simple. I play piano, not mouse and keyboard. The playability is what I need to get the ideas out otherwise I'll just be clicking in articulations all day.

I really like the idea of having control over articulations based on how you play. Trying to recreate or compose anything with more intricate phrasing using traditional sample based libraries is torture. I tried to mockup Forlane from Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin and while some of it worked out okay, for the most part getting strings and wind phrases to sound natural and expressive was not going to happen.

I also believe the traditional sample libraries articulations list is what created trailer music to begin with, because programming is such a hassle that it's easier to just stick with punching in spiccato ostinatos and soaring legato melodies. 😂


----------



## dormusic

scoredfilms said:


> I hate sample modeling.
> 
> Are they terrible? No. Agile, sure. But a quality option? While many oppose the idea out of an idealist "but it aint real" mentality. I only do because the sound is off and I just can't get over that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new woodwinds are new samples, new methods, etc. Even where Aaron is starting out now is miles ahead of Sample Modeling IMHO.
> 
> I added reverb because I suspect that's the one of the biggest challenges in improving the tone. The way a room EQ's and modulates the sound over time is technically captured in convolution, but a real sense of depth and dimension, of living in the space, has never been achieved IMHO. If you played Infinite Brass dry... but inside Lyndhurst... I'm sure it would still sound better than reverb would.
> 
> Rooms magnify the instrument's size and the sound is shaped over time. Many incorrectly say that modulation is missing. Convolution modulates the sound.... but the resulting depth is often way off, or very inconsistent at least. Aaron gets as close as anyone ever does. I still think he can improve here, especially for the sake of the ensemble results tone-wise, but Infinite 1.4 is a massive leap ahead of 1.0 in this regard. Someday Infinite 2 will happen. So I'm not worried about this at all. It's just worth noting why I think the two are related.
> 
> Infinite is just miles ahead of sample modeling for me, more for tone than agility, because of where it sits on the uncanny chart for me.


I agree loads with this. This seems to be a very current topic here lately.

Some of the overcoming of the uncanny valley with SM (and IB though I don't have the money for that atm) still has to be making the sound "bloom" in the immediate sense of ER.

Also, I think someone should do a n emulation of the Quantec Yardstick to that effect. They describe this "hallelujah effect" where shorter notes resonate less (and become less muddy) and longer notes resonate more. This can only be simulated with an adaptive engine that counts what was already played and boost those frequencies accordingly. I say this because when mixing SM brass (even with their own room ER at the max) I either get crispy shorts that are too dry or smeared shorts with a somewhat satisfactory sound. The only way around that is a hallelujah effect, that might also help the sound bloom.






QUANTEC: Room Simulation


Room Simulation - reverb with a substantial distinction



www.quantec.com


----------



## Jamus

scoredfilms said:


> I hate sample modeling.



Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Sample Modelling and Audio Modelling different companies now? Between SWAM Strings (Audio Modelling) and Sample Modelling strings, I think the latter is the more convincing of the two probably due to being part sampled and part modelled, which as I understand is how Aaron is doing the Infinite series, yes?


----------



## doctoremmet

Jamus said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Sample Modelling and Audio Modelling different companies now? Between SWAM Strings (Audio Modelling) and Sample Modelling strings, I think the latter is the more convincing of the two probably due to being part sampled and part modelled, which as I understand is how Aaron is doing the Infinite series, yes?


All of your observations are correct, and/or I agree with all of them


----------



## doctoremmet

dormusic said:


> Also, I think someone should do a n emulation of the Quantec Yardstick to that effect. They describe this "hallelujah effect" where shorter notes resonate less (and become less muddy) and longer notes resonate more. This can only be simulated with an adaptive engine that counts what was already played and boost those frequencies accordingly.


Interesting! I was never aware of this effect. Will have to dive into this more, intriguing stuff - thanks for mentioning this.


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> Interesting! I was never aware of this effect. Will have to dive into this more, intriguing stuff - thanks for mentioning this.



Before I got Infinite Brass & Winds and was still using Hollywood Orchestra, I simulated this by having 2 reverb sends per section of the orchestra. One for shorter articulations, and one for longer. Infinite does this well enough that I haven't felt a strong impulse to do this for my current mixes.


----------



## dormusic

El Buhdai said:


> Before I got Infinite Brass & Winds and was still using Hollywood Orchestra, I simulated this by having 2 reverb sends per section of the orchestra. One for shorter articulations, and one for longer. Infinite does this well enough that I haven't felt a strong impulse to do this for my current mixes.


That's the first time I hear someone actually addressing this problem in actual practice.


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> and one for longer.


With conventional sample libraries, you're always at the mercy of release samples, which trigger whenever you release a note. That is physically incorrect 99% of the time as the final ring is not the same pitch (cent-accurate) as the note when you released it (nor does it have the same dynamic behavior), but rather it's always whatever was recorded as the release sample.

Very telling when playing vibrato.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> release


Only one type of release matters right now 😂

Just kidding. So this is why detache sounds so good with infinite.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Only one type of release matters right now 😂
> 
> Just kidding. So this is why detache sounds so good with infinite.


I notice when @I like music is on holiday, his joke frequency goes into an even higher gear. I like this!


----------



## Sean J

Jamus said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Sample Modelling and Audio Modelling different companies now? Between SWAM Strings (Audio Modelling) and Sample Modelling strings, I think the latter is the more convincing of the two probably due to being part sampled and part modelled, which as I understand is how Aaron is doing the Infinite series, yes?



Sorry, I wasn't talking about companies but the method. I'm not as familiar with them as they never impress me. I check them out on occasion, but that's about it.



dormusic said:


> Some of the overcoming of the uncanny valley with SM (and IB though I don't have the money for that atm) still has to be making the sound "bloom" in the immediate sense of ER.



Exactly. Trumpets slap. Floor toms grow. They all interact and bloom into the space instead of recycling the same sound against math. 2 reverbs doesn't work for me at all. Many do it, including great AE's at times. But real distortion if like a fresh peach off the tree next to plugins that taste like sandpaper. Physics is a lot more complex than simple algorithms. Good recordings involve deliberate decisions from players, AE's, where to put the mic, which mic to use, etc, etc. Infintie is great. But reverb isn't perfect. Not his fault, but something to address nonetheless.

That said, and in fairness to Aaron:

Compared that to experiences with wet libraries which have something up on reverb. What good is putting the greatest cellist in the greatest hall to play Bach's Cello Suite if they have to use a broken bow? Play louder! We'll try a new room! Let's charge more for a new set of trumpets that have the same articulations, or fewer, and market the crap out of it with big name endorsements!

I'll stick with Aaron and wait for reverb to improve.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> Sorry, I wasn't talking about companies but the method. I'm not as familiar with them as they never impress me. I check them out on occasion, but that's about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Trumpets slap. Floor toms grow. They all bloom into the space instead of recycling the same sound against math. 2 reverbs doesn't work for me at all. Many do it, including great AE's at times. But real distortion if like a fresh peach off the tree next to plugins that taste like sandpaper. Physics is a lot more complex than simple algorithms. Good recordings involve deliberate decisions from players, AE's, where to put the mic, which mic to use, etc, etc. Infintie is great. But reverb isn't perfect. Not his fault, but something to address nonetheless.
> 
> That said, and in fairness to Aaron:
> 
> Compared that to experiences with wet libraries which have something up on reverb. What good is putting the greatest cellist in the greatest hall to play Bach's Cello Suite if they have to use a broken bow? Play louder! We'll try a new room! Let's charge more for a new set of trumpets that have the same articulations, or fewer, and market the crap out of it with big name endorsements!
> 
> I'll stick with Aaron and wait for reverb to improve.



Interesting. I wouldn't expect someone as passionate about the physics of acoustics and room response to be interested in Infinite at all unless they love its sound partially due to the convolution like I do.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Only one type of release matters right now 😂
> 
> Just kidding. So this is why detache sounds so good with infinite.



I'm trying not to let Aaron's increased lurking and participation get me too excited. I must remain patient! 

Though I must admit I'm rewriting my music in my head with English Horn lines as I go about my day.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Interesting. I wouldn't expect someone as passionate about the physics of acoustics and room response to be interested in Infinite at all unless they love its sound partially due to the convolution like I do.



Like I've said, a great cellist in a great room doesn't mean squat if the bow is broken. The agility of the instruments is as essential as tone and no one is really getting that right except Aaron.



Even that can't be mocked up without artifacts in a wet library due to releases/legato issues.

Do I want a nice room? Yes. Almost more than anything else. Almost.


----------



## Sean J

Didn't use the mod-wheel in that. Just mouse in the piano roll with humanized velocity and note lengths. I did tweak the humanization, so it wasn't all automatic. But it took a lot less time than working with Spitfire has.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> Didn't use the mod-wheel in that. Just mouse in the piano roll with humanized velocity and note lengths. I did tweak the humanization, so it wasn't all automatic. But it took a lot less time than working with Spitfire has.



Just for fun, may I have the MIDI for that? I wanna I wanna mess with it myself since it's a fun line. I can even send an export of my version just for fun if you want. If not I'll just play with it on my own.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Just for fun, may I have the MIDI for that? I wanna I wanna mess with it myself since it's a fun line. I can even send an export of my version just for fun if you want. If not I'll just play with it on my own.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/16UFZA88G0G--8unCf5abWwrptPpx0VaG/view?usp=sharing (url)

I should probably turn it into a full piece, titled "Venture"... but ahem... I probably couldn't finish it... ahem... without an additional library or two.

Aaron, if you ever want a beta tester. 

Question: are flugelhorns (preferably 30 of them) possibly coming at some point? I'll settle for 4.


----------



## Sean J

Oh and don't mind the tempo and meter you'll have to change. I wrote it within another file just to fiddle.


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> https://drive.google.com/file/d/16UFZA88G0G--8unCf5abWwrptPpx0VaG/view?usp=sharing (url)
> 
> I should probably turn it into a full piece, titled "Venture"... but ahem... I probably couldn't finish it... ahem... without an additional library or two.
> 
> Aaron, if you ever want a beta tester.
> 
> Question: are flugelhorns (preferably 30 of them) possibly coming at some point? I'll settle for 4.



Thanks! And NO! I call first dibs on beta testing new Infinite products. After I like music of course. No one can overthrow him as the founder and president of the Aaron Venture fan club. I'm VP though, so.


----------



## CT

scoredfilms said:


> Even that can't be mocked up without artifacts in a wet library due to releases/legato issues.



I don't think the situation is quite that dire. I just knocked out something in the same spirit using one of those dreaded wet libraries (only a single patch needed, too), and its own weaknesses were, I think, about equal to the weaknesses in what you posted, albeit of a different type. If I were willing to give it a few more minutes of articulation management, and getting a punchier mic balance, it'd be even more fine.

Really, working with different articulations as opposed to a single patch isn't ideal, but set things up the right way and it's nowhere near the headache some people make it out to be. And you don't compromise on sound. But we will all weigh natural tonal/attack/release characteristics against "playability" and come to our own conclusions. Deepest apologies for sullying the thread with a dissenting opinion....


----------



## Damarus

Mike T said:


> Really, working with different articulations as opposed to a single patch isn't ideal, but set things up the right way and it's nowhere near the headache some people make it out to be. And you don't compromise on sound. But we will all weigh natural tonal/attack/release characteristics against "playability" and come to our own conclusions. Deepest apologies for sullying the thread with a dissenting opinion....



I think you made some good points. There is no denying the sound of more popular libraries that most of us have, and the play-ability isn't THAT bad. Its really the little things that add up, for me.

A good example that just blows my mind, is having a massive template for an orchestra and half of that be the different articulations. Not to mention you typically have to to balance the sounds between those articulations. Just seems very primitive.

These types of libraries are just a large step in the right direction I think.



aaronventure said:


> With conventional sample libraries, you're always at the mercy of release samples, which trigger whenever you release a note. That is physically incorrect 99% of the time as the final ring is not the same pitch (cent-accurate) as the note when you released it (nor does it have the same dynamic behavior), but rather it's always whatever was recorded as the release sample.
> 
> Very telling when playing vibrato.



This recent comment is another point to traditional samples. Again just the little things that add up to make you want something different.


----------



## Jamus

Mike T said:


> Really, working with different articulations as opposed to a single patch isn't ideal, but set things up the right way and it's nowhere near the headache some people make it out to be.



There's no sample library I've used that hasn't ended up dictating what I can and can't write, particularly concerning short articulations. Too often has it occurred that a marcato or portato sample was just that little bit too short, or not short enough and simply cannot be substituted with staccato.

To be fair I have not used every sample library on offer 😅


----------



## Damarus

Jamus said:


> There's no sample library I've used that hasn't ended up dictating what I can and can't write, particularly concerning short articulations.


+1

I'm convinced this is the reason we dont hear *convincing* John-Williams-type mock-ups / Clones very often.

Whats interesting is the 2 best JW mockups I heard on this forum were very recent, sounded amazing, and both using "Modeled Samples" in them.


----------



## El Buhdai

Mike T said:


> I don't think the situation is quite that dire. I just knocked out something in the same spirit using one of those dreaded wet libraries (only a single patch needed, too), and its own weaknesses were, I think, about equal to the weaknesses in what you posted, albeit of a different type. If I were willing to give it a few more minutes of articulation management, and getting a punchier mic balance, it'd be even more fine.
> 
> Really, working with different articulations as opposed to a single patch isn't ideal, but set things up the right way and it's nowhere near the headache some people make it out to be. And you don't compromise on sound. But we will all weigh natural tonal/attack/release characteristics against "playability" and come to our own conclusions. Deepest apologies for sullying the thread with a dissenting opinion....



Even though it goes against the reasons one might be a fan of these libraries, I would actually guess that your opinion is the popular opinion. The workflow of a traditional library is sometimes a headache, and it's sometimes a godsend. I do get tired of shaping every note from time to time and just want samples that play for me. Other times, I get sick of the stiff, totally unmusical sounding shorts and trying to figure out how to string them together despite the fact that they're almost always either too long, too short, too similar, or too different. This isn't as much of an issue with strings libraries in my experience but boy does it get annoying with woodwinds and brass...



Damarus said:


> I think you made some good points. There is no denying the sound of more popular libraries that most of us have, and the play-ability isn't THAT bad. Its really the little things that add up, for me.
> 
> A good example that just blows my mind, is having a massive template for an orchestra and half of that be the different articulations. Not to mention you typically have to to balance the sounds between those articulations. Just seems very primitive.
> 
> These types of libraries are just a large step in the right direction I think.



As someone who spent 600 hours on about 15 minutes of music to make it sound just right, these enormous templates full of dozens of articulations (some of which I would only use for a very short period of time in the music) got tiresome fast and Infinite was a breath of fresh air. It wouldn't be as much of an issue if the music I was writing at the time were closer to trailer music, but unfortunately it was ambitious enough that I often had to strongarm my samples into doing what I wanted. Some would call this a Hollywood Orchestra problem, but the often cited alternatives have some of the same issues so I was never impressed with them.



Jamus said:


> There's no sample library I've used that hasn't ended up dictating what I can and can't write, particularly concerning short articulations. Too often has it occurred that a marcato or portato sample was just that little bit too short, or not short enough and simply cannot be substituted with staccato.
> 
> To be fair I have not used every sample library on offer 😅



This is exactly what drove me mad about traditional libraries. It's exactly why I called Hollywood Woodwinds "unusable" in one thread and made some guy very upset. It's exactly why I fell in love right away with the consistency of these two libraries and didn't even pick up on the tone issues until later. Thankfully now they're being fixed. Short articulations are the most difficult MIDI-related aspects of mockups in my opinion. First you have to match them to the phrase in your head, then you have to match them to the sound of each other (volume, eq, sometimes envelopes), and then you have to try and figure out how to make it all sound musical. And don't even bother blending those shorts with sustains and trills in the middle of a melody unless you want to be up all night. Not fun.


----------



## CT

Damarus said:


> This recent comment is another point to traditional samples. Again just the little things that add up to make you want something different.



I can appreciate that problem, but I am not yet remotely convinced that solving this minor issue with release tuning, even taken along with the other benefits of this approach, is worth the overall sonic price. I think the philosophy of these libraries is commendable. I'm not sure what the actual future of them might be, at least in the context of "final draft" sound and realism.


----------



## shawnsingh

Mike T said:


> I don't think the situation is quite that dire. I just knocked out something in the same spirit using one of those dreaded wet libraries (only a single patch needed, too), and its own weaknesses were, I think, about equal to the weaknesses in what you posted, albeit of a different type. If I were willing to give it a few more minutes of articulation management, and getting a punchier mic balance, it'd be even more fine.
> 
> Really, working with different articulations as opposed to a single patch isn't ideal, but set things up the right way and it's nowhere near the headache some people make it out to be. And you don't compromise on sound. But we will all weigh natural tonal/attack/release characteristics against "playability" and come to our own conclusions. Deepest apologies for sullying the thread with a dissenting opinion....



Dissenting opinions are welcome. I like it because it challenges people to think more about the reasons we chose our own opinions (and to think about the quality of those reasons).

Seems like your perspective is about the "playability vs good tone" tradeoff, or the "no-keyswitches vs keyswitches" tradeoff. For me the comparison is quite different. For me it's about "capability to get realistic nuanced performance details the way I want" versus "capability to get a beautiful orchestral mix and room tone that I want".

For me, infinite (brass) is the first time that this tradeoff isn't forcing some kind of compromise for me. I feel like I can get 95% close to the mix I want thanks to the bespoke IRs (and more importantly, I feel optimistic I can still tweak it better over time, compared to other dry libraries I felt I reached a dead end long ago for various detail reasons), while I also feel it's been possible to MIDI-edit my way through all performance nuances I wanted, without feeling like I had to compose for samples.


----------



## Damarus

Mike T said:


> I can appreciate that problem, but I am not yet remotely convinced that solving this minor issue with release tuning, even taken along with the other benefits of this approach, is worth the overall sonic price. I think the philosophy of these libraries is commendable. I'm not sure what the actual future of them might be, at least in the context of "final draft" sound and realism.



Agreed, I don't think its one or the other at this moment but more more of a harmony of samples. Perfect example was the JW 'Speeder Chase' mockup. No one guessed the brass..


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> Some would call this a Hollywood Orchestra problem


----------



## El Buhdai

Mike T said:


> I can appreciate that problem, but I am not yet remotely convinced that solving this minor issue with release tuning, even taken along with the other benefits of this approach, is worth the overall sonic price. I think the philosophy of these libraries is commendable. I'm not sure what the actual future of them might be, at least in the context of "final draft" sound and realism.



It's not just the release tuning though. I actually somewhat disagree with Aaron and others that releases are the biggest issue with traditional libraries, or even a significant one at all. My issues with traditional libraries comes down to these things:

- The insane number of articulations required to even approach realistic musicality.
- The remarkably inconsistent volume, tone, and sound between those patches, even from the biggest sample developers in the game like Spitfire and EastWest.
- The amount of RAM and storage required to inject some depth into a mix via mic positions
- The loading times
- Noticeable crossfades
- Artificial-sounding dynamic range (think of how CSS' output gain usually sounds louder or quieter than what it might actually be if an ensemble played that way in real life)
- The fact that "playing to the samples" is a reality in most libraries that everyone mostly just accepts, which completely hinders creativity and expression
- The fact that most orchestral elements have to be hidden behind or blended with other lines in order for them to still sound natural, which prevents realistic music at lower dynamics that still moves, and can also prevent the creation of music that incorporates leaner orchestration or music with more exposed elements.

When it comes to choosing your sampling philosophy I think it all comes down to what bothers you most. Do you care about having the purest, cleanest tone possible even if the moment you connect two of those samples, it sounds blocky and unnatural?

Or do you care about having nearly infinite musicality, even if your music sounds like it's being written on a synthesizer?

For me, and presumably many others that use libraries like this, we're more bothered by the former. I personally don't care how perfect the tone of a library is if I have to spend dozens of hours to make it sound like music when I try to turn those recordings into a composition.

EDIT: Forgot to address one more point in my ramblings. 
I don't know what the future holds for these sorts of libraries either, but Aaron's efforts in this space are only getting better as the months go by, and the gap in tone between traditional libraries and semi-modeled/modeled libraries is growing smaller as well. I'm convinced that they will eventually find their place into the templates of at least a _few_ larger composers, but that will likely be many years down the line, and I don't think we'll see all composers appreciate these sorts of libraries because a lot of us are purists, and that's perfectly okay.


----------



## Sean J

Mike T said:


> set things up the right way and it's nowhere near the headache some people make it out to be.



I disagree. But I do see your point.

Create keyswitch maps in Sibelius, Notion, Dorico, Cubase, Studio One, Overture, FL Studio, and Logic. Or at least, try to survive the process.

Keyswitches are literally a jury-rig solution. It's a note, not a trigger. When you realize that, every post-hoc design from that will increase with issues. The Expression Map lane requires multiple edits when in StaffPad I move a note and the program understands the music in a musical way. Keyswitches aren't musical in the editing sense. And all of that isn't to mention that the staccato didn't fit, so maybe the staccitissimo will work instead. Or maybe the portato or Tenuto here cause the length sounds more natural in this context. OMG. I want to die. When I sit down at a piano, I can improv 30 minutes of music in exactly... 30 minutes. How long does it take to write a _well performed_ 1 minute horn line in a DAW? It should take exactly 1 minute at most (playback folks). For piano-roll mouse guys like me, sometimes I can write more duration in less time because I'm not relying on a tempo. In StaffPad I write more in a day than I ever can in a DAW. My use for Aaron Venture is basically to fill in all the gaps where other samples can't handle what I'm trying to write.

It's a first-world problem. The industry isn't idiotic (well, maybe), just not mature yet. Hans Zimmer thinks music software is great. I think we've only just begun... barely. Keyswitches were useful, but a thing of the past IMHO. Aaron Venture is telling other developers he's taking the training wheels off.


----------



## Sean J

Mike T said:


> and come to our own conclusions. Deepest apologies for sullying the thread with a dissenting opinion....



Of course. I forgot to say that I completely respect that point.

Whatever workflow best suits you, is the right one. I'm a bit... enthusiastic about my views sometimes. But all in respect.


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> Or do you care about having nearly infinite musicality, even if your music sounds like it's being written on a synthesizer?



I know what you were trying to say I think.. AV samples have come a long way because I remember not being convinced by the initial release of IB (I think it was), and now I can't believe all the features it has.


----------



## CT

shawnsingh said:


> Seems like your perspective is about the "playability vs good tone" tradeoff, or the "no-keyswitches vs keyswitches" tradeoff. For me the comparison is quite different. For me it's about "capability to get realistic nuanced performance details the way I want" versus "capability to get a beautiful orchestral mix and room tone that I want".



I think it's simpler than that for me. There are two problems that we can choose from: subpar sound, or difficulty sculpting a performance. The latter is not impossible to solve (within reasonable VI expectations) with standard samples, it just takes some work. I've yet to hear much proof that any degree of work can solve the former problem.

Also... keyswitches, expression maps, individual tracks... there are smoother, more musical ways to deal with switching between articulations.


----------



## doctoremmet

Damarus said:


> +1
> 
> I'm convinced this is the reason we dont hear *convincing* John-Williams-type mock-ups / Clones very often.
> 
> Whats interesting is the 2 best JW mockups I heard on this forum were very recent, sounded amazing, and both using "Modeled Samples" in them.


One of which at least was @I like music ’s. The man who just today again claimed to “have bad ears”


----------



## El Buhdai

Damarus said:


> I know what you were trying to say I think.. AV samples have come a long way because I remember not being convinced by the initial release of IB (I think it was), and now I can't believe all the features it has.



Yeah I heard some of the initial versions as well. I definitely wouldn't have bought it at the time and frankly after 1.4 I'm surprised I was impressed by Infinite Brass at 1.3.


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> Yeah I heard some of the initial versions as well. I definitely wouldn't have bought it at the time and frankly after 1.4 I'm surprised I was impressed by Infinite Brass at 1.3.



And this is the reason why these libraries are great investments. It just blows my mind that there are free updates. Some of those updates drastically altering the sound for the better. I know that most likely none of my libraries will ever get that.


..I'm literally talking myself into buying Infinite series.


----------



## El Buhdai

Damarus said:


> And this is the reason why these libraries are great investments. It just blows my mind that there are free updates. Some of those updates drastically altering the sound for the better. I know that most likely none of my libraries will ever get that.
> 
> 
> ..I'm literally talking myself into buying Infinite series.



I agree! A composer I talk with sometimes had a lot of criticisms of these libraries when I first got them. After the honeymoon phase, I soon came to agree with some of them and the trumpets, flutes, trombones, and english horn fell out of my template because I couldn't trick myself into thinking they sounded realistic anymore. Just when I was starting to wonder if I was stuck with libraries where almost half of the instruments didn't sound convincing, Aaron showed off the Infinite Brass 1.4 trumpet demo. One of the least convincing instruments in the series had become the best (at least to my ears), and everything else I already liked was still getting a facelift. Several months later and Infinite Brass was basically an entirely new library and now Infinite Woodwinds is edging closer to the same sequal-quality sound that will hopefully allow me to drag its flutes and english horn back into my templates. At this point I feel bad for requesting an educational discount.

Just do it man! I made an irresponsibly large purchase today myself and misery needs company.


----------



## doctoremmet

Psssst. Care to share which purchase?


----------



## CT

El Buhdai said:


> One of the least convincing instruments in the series had become the best



It is for this reason that I continue to follow the updates, to hear what becomes of many of the woodwinds and the low brass.


----------



## Damarus

doctoremmet said:


> Psssst. Care to share which purchase?


@El Buhdai Please respond


----------



## John R Wilson

I've got my mouse hovering over CSB and IB. However, I think currently I am going to go with CSB. The infinite series is really intriguing me though and I'll certainly be following his libraries to see how the woodwinds update turn out and also await for the strings!! I can imagine how unbelievable useful and amazing it would be to have an extremely playable full orchestra with no key-switching at all and all light on resources. If Aaron achieves this with a pretty good/convincing overall tone then ill be buying all of them!! Strings is going to be the most challenging one to get right!!


----------



## El Buhdai

doctoremmet said:


> Psssst. Care to share which purchase?





Damarus said:


> @El Buhdai Please respond



It's not a music-related thing at all so it's completely off topic and will completely derail this thread but here it goes...

Since I'm satisfied with my libraries at the moment, I bought a high-end electric longboard for the price of BBCSO Professional plus express shipping.

Can ya tell I'm a college kid?


----------



## El Buhdai

Mike T said:


> It is for this reason that I continue to follow the updates, to hear what becomes of many of the woodwinds and the low brass.



And like shawn said we're fine talking to you even though you're not sold on these types of sample libraries yet. I really enjoy talking to people I disagree with. It's the best way to learn something as long as you keep an open mind. And while I fanboy over these libraries pretty hard, I'm still open to criticizing them myself. In fact I need to send Aaron a feedback dump when IW 1.2 releases.

You made a nod at the low brass in this message and I think I see where you're coming from. I believe the trombones are currently the weakest brass instruments in the library as they're too pitch-perfect and clean for how difficult it is to play a trombone on pitch. Plus they just sound a bit synthy compared to the rest of the instruments in their current form. I've heard some classical recordings that sound remarkably similar to Aaron's approach to trombones in Infinite Brass (particularly at higher dynamics), but something still feels off about them to me.


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> It's not a music-related thing at all so it's completely off topic and will completely derail this thread but here it goes...
> 
> Since I'm satisfied with my libraries at the moment, I bought a high-end electric longboard for the price of BBCSO Professional plus express shipping.
> 
> Can ya tell I'm a college kid?



Totally a boosted board isnt it


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> - The insane number of articulations required to even approach realistic musicality.



A moment of silence to our fallen brothers and sisters who just finished up a giant template only to realise they overlooked something and the whole thing needs revision 🤣


----------



## CT

El Buhdai said:


> not sold on these types of sample libraries yet.



The thing that worries me is that I've paid attention to modeling and semi-modeling for quite a while now. Some years ago, I even used a few such VIs. And over that time, I haven't heard any radical improvement to the sound problem, and the playability dimension is also more or less unchanged (not that it necessarily needs improvement). We get new flavors of these instruments, new takes on the approach, but none seem to me to be a leap forward. One or two developers seem to actually be going _backwards_. The Sample Modeling horn, as an example... that's been around for a while. I haven't heard a better modeled/semi-modeled horn yet.


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> You made a nod at the low brass in this message and I think I see where you're coming from. I believe the trombones are currently the weakest brass instruments in the library as they're too pitch-perfect and clean for how difficult it is to play a trombone on pitch.



As I recall, in Aaron's overview video of IB 1.4 he mentions the aim of the library is to have players that perform completely to the will of the composer, and should you wish to further program errors such as pitch accuracy you can do so (using pitch bend). I suppose no matter what you do with sample libraries there is always going to be some programming involved.


----------



## Terry93D

scoredfilms said:


> Question: are flugelhorns (preferably 30 of them) possibly coming at some point? I'll settle for 4.


I really really want flugelhorns. I'll settle for two or three though. I ain't picky. Even with one, I could put together a section with transposition and slight detuning.


----------



## oceanic714

For those who feel the tone of these instruments is less than stellar, I feel like I have improved it by inserting saturation. Alan Meyerson seems to use it regularly.


----------



## Sean J

Terry93D said:


> I really really want flugelhorns. I'll settle for two or three though. I ain't picky. Even with one, I could put together a section with transposition and slight detuning.



Don't let him think that's enough. NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! Ugh. Aaron, have compassion. Pity me. Something. Flugelhorn ensembles are starting to be a thing. I'm pretty 8dio has one, and Orchestral Tools even did one (in an Arc?). They exist dang it! Will you really make me use keyswitches? 



Mike T said:


> The thing that worries me is that I've paid attention to modeling and semi-modeling for quite a while now. Some years ago, I even used a few such VIs. And over that time, I haven't heard any radical improvement to the sound problem...



Same boat for me exactly. I wonder what others hear in it. Infinite isn't perfect, but every update has been huge, even tone-wise. 1.4 had huge tone improvements. So definitely worth keeping an eye on it if you're unsure. For a critical opinion... There's a bit too much of a smack attack on each note. It's a bit sudden and instant, like a 2x4 slapping the player in the face on each note. Playing it in live helps more than the mouse here, but it's still a bit present for my taste.


----------



## doctoremmet

scoredfilms said:


> I'm pretty 8dio has one


Yep. My second favorite brass library is Century Brass 2.0.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jamus said:


> As I recall, in Aaron's overview video of IB 1.4 he mentions the aim of the library is to have players that perform completely to the will of the composer, and should you wish to further program errors such as pitch accuracy you can do so (using pitch bend). I suppose no matter what you do with sample libraries there is always going to be some programming involved.



This is true, but the problem is that even with that mind, you can play a Tuba note that's near the bottom of the instrument's range and you'll hear some nice subtle pitch variation that makes it sound like the player is struggling a bit, but without being so noticeable that the notes in that area become unusable. Even playing notes within the Tuba's comfortable range gives you a bit of variation when the note is sustained. The same is true for the other instruments in the library as well but I just used the Tuba as an example because it's the most noticeable. This is _not_ the case for the trombones_. _It's more similar to a synth than a trombone because the variation is so small, it's there, but it could use a bit more considering how difficult it is to maintain pitch on that instrument. It's a straight, unending note that swells and eventually starts to strain your ears with all the resonance if you leave it sitting too long on higher dynamics. Too sterile, too clean, and too thin. Infinite's underlying samples unfortunately peek through a little too well with the trombones. I've attached an audio example of what I mean.



Damarus said:


> Totally a boosted board isnt it



Backfire G3 Plus. Boosted went under and even when they were in business I didn't like their price to specs ratio.


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> Too sterile, too clean, and too thin. Infinite's underlying samples unfortunately peek through a little too well with the trombones. I've attached an audio example of what I mean



Oh yeah I guess I can hear what you mean in the given example. In the meantime you might be able to add pitch variation yourself? I know in Reaper you can assign random pitch wheel modulation as an input FX. Pro tip: this trick brings new life to old samples with little to no round robins like EWQLSO and Stormdrum 2 😉


----------



## decredis

Somebody on twitter described the Infinite Trumpet I used on my new track (a blues-rockish bit) as "swanky nasty" which I *think* was a compliment to the tone. :s


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> This is _not_ the case for the trombones_._


Fixed in 1.5.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Fixed in 1.5.


Not 1.4.1 but 1.5! Damn!


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Not 1.4.1 but 1.5! Damn!


New instruments warrant a decimal bump


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> New instruments warrant a decimal bump


Oh yeah! Forgot about the cimbassi. He released so much new free stuff I can't keep up


----------



## pierrevigneron

I think Aaron must have obtained the permissions for the large hall and took the opportunity to make some improvements so we will have the brass 1.5 brass version and the 1.2 winds. Super eager to hear them !!!


----------



## Sean J

aaronventure said:


> Fixed in 1.5.



And *THIS*... is why we support Aaron.


----------



## aaronventure

doctoremmet said:


> New instruments warrant a decimal bump


Well, this isn't just a quick patch. Even if cimbassi weren't coming, there will be some big improvements.



pierrevigneron said:


> I think Aaron must have obtained the permissions for the large hall


Not in this update, unfortunately. I had a date in June, then everything went to shit. Thanks, COVID!


----------



## Denkii

aaronventure said:


> Not in this update, unfortunately. I had a date in June, then everything went to shit. Thanks, COVID!



Maybe it's a sign. It seems as if the universe is giving it's best at not letting you capture that space. Maybe you should readjust and get the strings out. I am pretty sure that if you give us a date at least, the stars will align and you will magically be able to record the space. Ah? Ahhh?
Aahhhhhhhh?


----------



## pierrevigneron

I believe Aaron will get into a dangerous game by giving us a date aha. we are disappointed when a tv series we love comes to an end, we would like it to last longer. Even if the infinite series does not yet have its large hall, it does not matter because it makes it still "last" 😉


----------



## Denkii

All you guys can bingewait for the drums after we get the strings. Just give me the strings.
Give.
Strings.


----------



## I like music

I have no idea why I'm even begging for the Brass and winds release. I'm on vacation so cannot download them anyways...


----------



## oceanic714

Has anyone tried writing any swing tracks with these instruments? They seem to handle swing well when recorded at a slow tempo.


----------



## Damarus

oceanic714 said:


> Has anyone tried writing any swing tracks with these instruments? They seem to handle swing well when recorded at a slow tempo.



Haha love it.

Now on the flip side, can it HZ Batman brass...?


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Fixed in 1.5.



Dammit Aaron I love you.


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> Somebody on twitter described the Infinite Trumpet I used on my new track (a blues-rockish bit) as "swanky nasty" which I *think* was a compliment to the tone. :s




That trumpet fits surprisingly well into that mix. I'm having trouble believing it's Infinite, man. That's impressive! I've tried to use it almost dry in a studio context but my results haven't been nearly as good. Any tips?


----------



## oceanic714

Damarus said:


> Haha love it.
> 
> Now on the flip side, can it HZ Batman brass...?


Forgive my paraphrasing. Only layered some sine and low strings on this. I'm sure some mixing magic can be done to give it that iconic HZ crunch.


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> That trumpet fits surprisingly well into that mix. I'm having trouble believing it's Infinite, man. That's impressive! I've tried to use it almost dry in a studio context but my results haven't been nearly as good. Any tips?


So, I can only say what settings I used in this case: the trumpet is in the soloist position in the Mozarteum space, with close at one line below top, main at three below, and ambient at seven below. Got dynamic range down at about 35%. EQing: rolled off the bass below c200Hz, a narrow 3.2dB dip around 1330Hz, a wider 1.6dB boost around 2330Hz, and a 3.5dB shelf boost from around 7680.

Not sure how much of that is significant, how much very specific to my mix, and how much pure random superstition.

Possibly less relevant is that along with everything else in the mix it's finally going through a "bus mud remover" preset in cubase's passiveEQ which cuts a bit more at 180Hz and boosts high mids and highs some more; and finally cubase's reverence's "tokyo studio" reverb preset at 20%.

EDIT: weirdly, I originally improvised this part for SWAM flute, but I was really struggling to get it to work in the mix, switched the IB trumpet in, and there was very little more to do. Had to tweak the CCs a little but not much, and I was much happier with it than with the flute part straight away.


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> So, I can only say what settings I used in this case: the trumpet is in the soloist position in the Mozarteum space, with close at one line below top, main at three below, and ambient at seven below. Got dynamic range down at about 35%. EQing: rolled off the bass below c200Hz, a narrow 3.2dB dip around 1330Hz, a wider 1.6dB boost around 2330Hz, and a 3.5dB shelf boost from around 7680.
> 
> Not sure how much of that is significant, how much very specific to my mix, and how much pure random superstition.
> 
> Possibly less relevant is that along with everything else in the mix it's finally going through a "bus mud remover" preset in cubase's passiveEQ which cuts a bit more at 180Hz and boosts high mids and highs some more; and finally cubase's reverence's "tokyo studio" reverb preset at 20%.



The mic/positioning settings and EQ curves are more helpful than you thought, cause that's exactly what I was looking for!

The dynamic range slider is an important one too that I sometimes forget is essential when working with other genres. Because the area where there's no buzz (likely from blending the higher dynamic layers) in the Infinite 1.4 trumpets is very, very low. Maybe when the mod wheel is around 10% or less. 

The Dynamic Range slider helps you get a warmer tone before you even EQ it simply by allowing you to play at the lowest dynamics and still hear the instrument. Hopefully that'll be fixed in a future update. It's okay if it doesn't come with 1.5 even. The higher dynamics sound incredible in my opinion though.

Thanks for the tips!


----------



## Damarus

oceanic714 said:


> Forgive my paraphrasing. Only layered some sine and low strings on this. I'm sure some mixing magic can be done to give it that iconic HZ crunch.



That... Actually made me smile. That's damn nice sounding for a quick snippet!


----------



## I like music

How many of you have used the dynamic range slider to reduce the range?


----------



## oceanic714

Damarus said:


> That... Actually made me smile. That's damn nice sounding for a quick snippet!


Thanks! Libraries like IB and Sample Modeling have so much potential.

Sure, out of the box it is difficult to get the big cinematic sound that so many other libraries strive for. But if you spend a few hours building a template the end result is much more realistic and versatile.

The biggest downside to the other libraries is the fact that they are limited outside of their intended use. For example, Junkie Brass or CSB may not be able to pull off jazz or funk. At least not as naturally as IB can


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> How many of you have used the dynamic range slider to reduce the range?



I do it only when I need a soloist for other genres. Otherwise, I keep the maximum dynamic range because Infinite allows me to make extremely quiet music that sounds natural and still moves instead of having to resort to shifting chords. It's much harder to do that with other libraries, which might explain why most of the quiet VI music I hear is just that... chord progressions.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I have no idea why I'm even begging for the Brass and winds release. I'm on vacation so cannot download them anyways...



I will be soon and, as always, the update will came out in the exact moment I will go away from home.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I will be soon and, as always, the update will came out in the exact moment I will go away from home.



I just returned from mine yesterday and part of me was hoping it would release while I was gone so I could have something to look forward to on the way home.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I just returned from mine yesterday and part of me was hoping it would release while I was gone so I could have something to look forward to on the way home.


I'm back tomorrow but highly doubt update goes out on the weekend. Next week perhaps!


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I just returned from mine yesterday and part of me was hoping it would release while I was gone so I could have something to look forward to on the way home.



This is exactly what it will be for me. I'm in vacation right now so I'm waiting...


----------



## Jamus

Couldn't even count how many times I've refreshed AV webpage. I think the day i refresh the page and the greyed out strings are coloured I may just pass out from excitement 🤣


----------



## ansthenia

Jamus said:


> Couldn't even count how many times I've refreshed AV webpage. I think the day i refresh the page and the greyed out strings are coloured I may just pass out from excitement 🤣


I'm not expecting them to be very good at the initial release tbh, but I'm sure they will eventually be amazing after a few of Aaron's extremely generous free updates. If I'm completely wrong and I love them from the get-go then woohoo


----------



## El Buhdai

Jamus said:


> Couldn't even count how many times I've refreshed AV webpage. I think the day i refresh the page and the greyed out strings are coloured I may just pass out from excitement 🤣



You're not the first one and you certainly won't be the last of us to do that. It just goes to show that you don't need gimmicky marketing campaigns to keep people interested. Take care of your customers and they'll stick with you. 

Now release a new product so I can give you more money, Aaron.


----------



## El Buhdai

ansthenia said:


> I'm not expecting them to be very good at the initial release tbh, but I'm sure they will eventually be amazing after a few of Aaron's extremely generous free updates. If I'm completely wrong and I love them from the get-go then woohoo



I have the same feeling, though he seems to be getting better and better at his process. Updates seem to be getting done faster with better and better instruments. I wouldn't be surprised if Infinite Strings started off sounding better than IW & IB (which definitely shouldn't be hard to beat lol) sounded at 1.0.


----------



## Terry93D

El Buhdai said:


> Now release a new product so I can give you more money, Aaron.


This.


----------



## I like music

Right, I'm back from my vacation. Aaron, thank you for waiting. Feel free to release now.


----------



## Ricgus3

Ricgus3 said:


> When i see there is no articulations: damn... I need this. How much RAM does this eat Up? I heard it is very easy on the cpu. Also if you are not a great piano player is it still good to write in the midi urself? For complicated runs or passage? I am a mediocre piano player





aaronventure said:


> Jokes aside, some stuff you just can't know until you're in deep development. I'm optimistic, but I've gotten ambitious before and pushed releases back.
> 
> Whenever they're ready, they'll be glorious.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my current track template for Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horns 2-6 have Humanize enabled. Same for trumpets 2-3 and Tenor Trombone 2. I have loaded in additional copies of Bass Trombone and Contrabass Trombone which the Trombones a4 MIDI track points to, which have Humanize enabled and a lower Attack Accuracy setting. So when I'm using individual trombone tracks, these aren't playing (nor using any resources since it's the same patch as the individual ones and no CPU cycles are used while the instrument is not playing).
> 
> You can do the same for horns and trumpets and have your individual MIDI tracks be non-humanized if you want to really play them all in. However, I often found myself copy-pasting notes and just reperforming CCs unless the lines were exposed, and so if I ever need to disable Humanize I just do it via MIDI/Expression maps really quickly.


A question about your layout Aaron! After watching your walkthrough on youtube i was wondering how you would play in chords? Would you play in one note of each chord for each seperate "horn" for example. Meaning if you would play in a Cmaj7 chord you would play it in 4 times with each playing one of the chord notes? 

like:
Horn 1 E
Horn 2 C
Horn 3 B
Horn 4 G

Is there a way to play in the whole chords? You mentionend Legato Bypass but not as a recommended way to play chords.

If I would arm 4 tracks with 4 diffrent Horns, like above, and i woul record them all with the I would get 4 layered Cmaj7 chords right?Maybe that is more of a DAW question than a IB question


----------



## dormusic

Ricgus3 said:


> A question about your layout Aaron! After watching your walkthrough on youtube i was wondering how you would play in chords? Would you play in one note of each chord for each seperate "horn" for example. Meaning if you would play in a Cmaj7 chord you would play it in 4 times with each playing one of the chord notes?
> 
> like:
> Horn 1 E
> Horn 2 C
> Horn 3 B
> Horn 4 G
> 
> Is there a way to play in the whole chords? You mentionend Legato Bypass but not as a recommended way to play chords.
> 
> If I would arm 4 tracks with 4 diffrent Horns, like above, and i woul record them all with the I would get 4 layered Cmaj7 chords right?Maybe that is more of a DAW question than a IB question


Check out Divisimate.


----------



## aaronventure

Ricgus3 said:


> A question about your layout Aaron!


Depending on how exposed the horn chords are, I would either perform each one individually or perform one, then copy and paste it to other horns (which in this case have Humanize enabled) and just move the notes to the correct ones, in order to form the desired chord. You can also perform multiple and then just change the notes on the ones after the first.

Legato bypass I would only use to preview how chords would sound like. But I usually already know what the orchestration looks like as I'm never really composing directly with VIs. I compose on the piano and then the composition informs the orchestration. I work it out quickly in a sort of sketch way on paper and then it's really obvious which instruments are playing which notes.


----------



## pierrevigneron

If your Daw is cubase you also can do that with the logical editor


----------



## I like music

I'm having trouble assigning breath noise CC (default is CC 33). I'm trying to re-assign CC to CC9, but each time I try, it assigns CC1 to this.

Does anyone else have this issue with woodwinds? I cannot tell if its a my-Cubase problem or something specific to the woods library and breath noise.

For brass, and for other CCs, I have had no problems re-assigning.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> I'm having trouble assigning breath noise CC (default is CC 33). I'm trying to re-assign CC to CC9, but each time I try, it assigns CC1 to this.
> 
> Does anyone else have this issue with woodwinds? I cannot tell if its a my-Cubase problem or something specific to the woods library and breath noise.
> 
> For brass, and for other CCs, I have had no problems re-assigning.


It seems to work fine for me, whether by using the MIDI automation panel in Kontakt or by using MIDI learn from the IW interface. My Cubase version is 10.0.20 Pro, in Windows.


----------



## pierrevigneron

I use the right-click learn automation in the IW interface


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> It seems to work fine for me, whether by using the MIDI automation panel in Kontakt or by using MIDI learn from the IW interface. My Cubase version is 10.0.20 Pro, in Windows.


Thank you. Yeah midi learn is causing problems just for that specific one. Might just go via Kontakt


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> I use the right-click learn automation in the IW interface


This is what I do, except for on the woodwinds I try to learn but it automatically learns cc1. 

It makes me wonder if the instruments are receiving some sort of constant cc1 so that when I wiggle another cc eg cc9, it hears cc1 first. Frustrating!


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> This is what I do, except for on the woodwinds I try to learn but it automatically learns cc1.
> 
> It makes me wonder if the instruments are receiving some sort of constant cc1 so that when I wiggle another cc eg cc9, it hears cc1 first. Frustrating!


My old NI A61 keyboard sent not quite constant but very frequent CC1 data regardless of being touched, was a massive nuisance. To be fair, they gave me a voucher for more than its original worth once it became apparent (after several times sending out another A61 with the same fault) that they couldn't do anything about it.

Can you check with a midi monitor, eg MIDI-OX?

EDIT: (not that that sort of problem would make sense of it only being an issue with IW)


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> My old NI A61 keyboard sent not quite constant but very frequent CC1 data regardless of being touched, was a massive nuisance. To be fair, they gave me a voucher for more than its original worth once it became apparent (after several times sending out another A61 with the same fault) that they couldn't do anything about it.
> 
> Can you check with a midi monitor, eg MIDI-OX?
> 
> EDIT: (not that that sort of problem would make sense of it only being an issue with IW)


That's a great idea! Will look at a midi monitor. Thanks!


----------



## Ricgus3

aaronventure said:


> Depending on how exposed the horn chords are, I would either perform each one individually or perform one, then copy and paste it to other horns (which in this case have Humanize enabled) and just move the notes to the correct ones, in order to form the desired chord. You can also perform multiple and then just change the notes on the ones after the first.
> 
> Legato bypass I would only use to preview how chords would sound like. But I usually already know what the orchestration looks like as I'm never really composing directly with VIs. I compose on the piano and then the composition informs the orchestration. I work it out quickly in a sort of sketch way on paper and then it's really obvious which instruments are playing which notes.


Thanks for answering!


----------



## Ricgus3

pierrevigneron said:


> If your Daw is cubase you also can do that with the logical editor


My DAW is Reaper


----------



## ansthenia

1.2...1.2...1.2....1.2....1.2...


----------



## I like music

ansthenia said:


> 1.2...1.2...1.2....1.2....1.2...








1.5...1.5...1.5...1.5...1.5...


----------



## Sean J

I was tempted to play another prank with this. Decided we've had enough of that though.

Rather, I ask...

Aaron, will solo and chamber strings both be available in IS 1.0? Anything else? Less?


----------



## El Buhdai

scoredfilms said:


> I was tempted to play another prank with this. Decided we've had enough of that though.
> 
> Rather, I ask...
> 
> Aaron, will solo and chamber strings both be available in IS 1.0? Anything else? Less?



Glad you decided not to. I still don't forgive @I like music for his pranks around the release of IB 1.4. 

Just evil!


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> Glad you decided not to. I still don't forgive @I like music for his pranks around the release of IB 1.4.
> 
> Just evil!



Believe me... every particle in that thought was directed at fooling him. PM'ing would be too supicious. Fooling everyone else could theoretically hurt Aaron's library from getting attention later on. If it weren't for that, I might have even gone to much more extreme measures.


----------



## Jamus

scoredfilms said:


> Aaron, will solo and chamber strings both be available in IS 1.0? Anything else? Less?




I'm curious about this also!


----------



## Terry93D

If I remember right, the way the IS are being recorded is so that you could build anything from a solo to a symphonic strings section. Personally, I can't wait to write a piece that expands from string quartet to chamber strings to chamber orchestra to symphony orchestra.


----------



## Jamus

Terry93D said:


> If I remember right, the way the IS are being recorded is so that you could build anything from a solo to a symphonic strings section. Personally, I can't wait to write a piece that expands from string quartet to chamber strings to chamber orchestra to symphony orchestra.



Oh gawdd the dreaamm! All I've ever wanted was to be able to do divisi without sample build-up 😭


----------



## El Buhdai

Jamus said:


> Oh gawdd the dreaamm!



Who needs Aperture Strings, right? 



scoredfilms said:


> Aaron, will solo and chamber strings both be available in IS 1.0? Anything else? Less?



There's a very interesting thing he decided to add to Infinite Strings that I don't think anyone here is expecting, and I desperately hope I can spill the beans but I'm afraid to in case his plans have changed..


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> There's a very interesting thing he decided to add to Infinite Strings that I don't think anyone here is expecting, and I desperately hope I can spill the beans but I'm afraid to in case his plans have changed..



Octobass!? 😂


----------



## shawnsingh

I'm going to instabuy it.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jamus said:


> Octobass!? 😂



That would be super cool, but that's not it (unless he's decided to add that too, haha!). Maybe I'll shoot him a message one of these days with the info I was gonna share and ask him if he's still gonna do it, and if it's okay to post it here.


----------



## ummon

Brass (and woodwinds) demos on AV page are IMHO simply too baked with the ambience (low mid frequencies) in a bad way to hear any details. Are there any other demos with different room/mic settings (preferably as dry as possible) than the ones on their webpage?


----------



## El Buhdai

ummon said:


> Brass (and woodwinds) demos on AV page are IMHO simply too baked with the ambience (low mid frequencies) in a bad way to hear any details. Are there any other demos with different room/mic settings (preferably as dry as possible) than the ones on their webpage?



I don't have any demos where the instruments are heavily modified to be different than their sound out of the box. I mix them using a less is more philosophy, so they sound similar to what you might hear on the store page, minus a bit of harsh resonance in the mids. 

Maybe @doctoremmet can point you to a demo? Last I checked he was consolidating all the user demos for the libraries.


----------



## I like music

ummon said:


> Brass (and woodwinds) demos on AV page are IMHO simply too baked with the ambience (low mid frequencies) in a bad way to hear any details. Are there any other demos with different room/mic settings (preferably as dry as possible) than the ones on their webpage?



I'm pretty sure each demo is done with each room. You can for example listen to the same demo but with the Studio setting. Or have you listened to that and still feel the same?


----------



## Jamus

ummon said:


> Brass (and woodwinds) demos on AV page are IMHO simply too baked with the ambience (low mid frequencies) in a bad way to hear any details. Are there any other demos with different room/mic settings (preferably as dry as possible) than the ones on their webpage?



The demos with the "MORE" button to the right have the same demo rendered at different room perspectives. So you can check out the studio mix for the dryer sound 😁


----------



## ummon

Thanks for the info! Sounds much better now, although it would be nice to have few more examples to hear how the instruments blend together in more complex arrangement. I know this library has just begun to get more appreciation so I guess there's no mockups available yet or comprisons with the most popular libraries (csb, berlin ww...)


----------



## I like music

ummon said:


> Thanks for the info! Sounds much better now, although it would be nice to have few more examples to hear how the instruments blend together in more complex arrangement. I know this library has just begun to get more appreciation so I guess there's no mockups available yet or comprisons with the most popular libraries (csb, berlin ww...)



This thread has quite a few examples. Admittedly, it is 2000 msgs long, but if you go back through, you'll hear all kinds of arrangements, from simple to complex. Self-plug, there's a somewhat dry John Williams mockup, with the brass used in pretty much every way imaginable. 
PS Don't focus on demos from initial releases. The instruments that were released (and demos from v1) are VERY different from the ones now.


----------



## El Buhdai

ummon said:


> Thanks for the info! Sounds much better now, although it would be nice to have few more examples to hear how the instruments blend together in more complex arrangement. I know this library has just begun to get more appreciation so I guess there's no mockups available yet or comprisons with the most popular libraries (csb, berlin ww...)



If you do an advanced search in this thread you might be able to find some of them. Dan has some really mature sounding exposed lines and quick ensemble sketches. I have some fairly contemporary sounding stuff, with most (if not all) of my demos being made on the latest versions of both libraries.

One of these days I might skim through this thread and bookmark all the posts with demos so I can start referencing specific pages.


----------



## Kent

El Buhdai said:


> If you do an advanced search in this thread you might be able to find some of them. Dan has some really mature sounding exposed lines and quick ensemble sketches. I have some fairly contemporary sounding stuff, with most (if not all) of my demos being made on the latest versions of both libraries.
> 
> One of these days I might skim through this thread and bookmark all the posts with demos so I can start referencing specific pages.


Don't forget @shawnsingh's classic on page 71


----------



## El Buhdai

kmaster said:


> Don't forget @shawnsingh's classic on page 71



Yes! That's my personal favorite and I'm glad you found it before I did. I've felt tremendously uncomfortable posting any music of my own since that demo.


----------



## I like music

Also, check out his EQ settings. While the brass sounds amazing out of the box, Shawn managed to match the EQ settings to get it sounding pretty damn close to Berlin Brass. That's a pretty good alternative 'sound' to have!!!


----------



## Wenlone

ummon said:


> Thanks for the info! Sounds much better now, although it would be nice to have few more examples to hear how the instruments blend together in more complex arrangement. I know this library has just begun to get more appreciation so I guess there's no mockups available yet or comprisons with the most popular libraries (csb, berlin ww...)



Almost all the shared demos after IBrass1.4 on this thread are here. It's a bit mess but you'll have a better idea.






Infinite Series Demos - Google Drive







drive.google.com


----------



## I like music

Aaron's suddenly gone quiet. Based on my previous stalking, when we see a ramp in his activity, and then a sudden drop in his activity, we are approximately 32 hours from release (+/- 1hr)


----------



## I like music

Wenlone said:


> Almost all the shared demos after IBrass1.4 on this thread are here. It's a bit mess but you'll have a better idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Series Demos - Google Drive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com



Nice work! I'm assuming you couldn't include demos that were hosted on Soundcloud etc? Some of the longer efforts are on those sits I think.


----------



## Wenlone

I like music said:


> Nice work! I'm assuming you couldn't include demos that were hosted on Soundcloud etc? Some of the longer efforts are on those sits I think.


There are couple of pieces from soundcloud. There was other players as well but i couldn't download audio from them.


----------



## DANIELE

Il will upload my last track on you tube, then I will post it here to be downloaded.


----------



## Damarus

I like music said:


> Aaron's suddenly gone quiet. Based on my previous stalking, when we see a ramp in his activity, and then a sudden drop in his activity, we are approximately 32 hours from release (+/- 1hr)


----------



## Damarus

Anyone here using Divisimate with Infinite series? Actually thinking about getting it when I pickup this bundle..


----------



## PerryD

Damarus said:


>


 Fortune cookie say...


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> Yes! That's my personal favorite and I'm glad you found it before I did. I've felt tremendously uncomfortable posting any music of my own since that demo.



But in all seriousness, I feel the same way when listening to other people's demos too, this thread has had several great ones!

A few that I remember in particular, because I remember wanting to imitate more about the mixing style on these ones:

The one from @oceanic714. Good demo of the studio IRs plus reverb, IIRC. I feel like I could hear the trumpets wavering their embrochure on their staccato parts, felt quite real.

And the @I like music for the Williams ET treat, IMO became an instant legendary demo, up there with Andy Blaney's SSO demos. Well, I was originally waiting to say anything about it because I still haven't had a chance to hear this on my real headphones or monitors, only on boomy muffly laptop speakers with auto-spatialization that kills the stereo image, but through that, it sounds so great already. I especially admired the way that you get powerful brass throughout, but is still held back until later at the end when they finally unleash their full bore power. I usually struggle with this detail of programming virtual instruments - I often go full bore too soon because it sounds right at the time, but because of that I loose all dynamic impact at climaxes because there's not as much room to go on top of that anymore. =)


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> But in all seriousness, I feel the same way when listening to other people's demos too, this thread has had several great ones!
> 
> A few that I remember in particular, because I remember wanting to imitate more about the mixing style on these ones:
> 
> The one from @oceanic714. Good demo of the studio IRs plus reverb, IIRC. I feel like I could hear the trumpets wavering their embrochure on their staccato parts, felt quite real.
> 
> And the @I like music for the Williams ET treat, IMO became an instant legendary demo, up there with Andy Blaney's SSO demos. Well, I was originally waiting to say anything about it because I still haven't had a chance to hear this on my real headphones or monitors, only on boomy muffly laptop speakers with auto-spatialization that kills the stereo image, but through that, it sounds so great already. I especially admired the way that you get powerful brass throughout, but is still held back until later at the end when they finally unleash their full bore power. I usually struggle with this detail of programming virtual instruments - I often go full bore too soon because it sounds right at the time, but because of that I loose all dynamic impact at climaxes because there's not as much room to go on top of that anymore. =)



Hah, thanks for the kind words! I stopped listening to that version of the mockup, since I believe I may have got the strings in a better sounding room so they're a bit crisper now. Still lots of work to do on the strings but if IS comes through, man, I reallly want to test that mockup with those!

Yeah, left a bit in the tank with the brass because in the finale he gets the horns doing bells up. I thought to myself 'how the hell will I get that bells up sound?' Turned out you just whack the horns to 127 and you get a pretty good imitation!


----------



## Batrawi

Damarus said:


> Anyone here using Divisimate with Infinite series? Actually thinking about getting it when I pickup this bundle..


was it you or another guy?... sorry but I don't recall how much I've already recommeded this kontat multiscript:





Multi Divisi Script v6.5


Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...




vi-control.net





...give it a try before buying Divisimate


----------



## Simon Schrenk

Damarus said:


> Anyone here using Divisimate with Infinite series? Actually thinking about getting it when I pickup this bundle..


I do. Especially with the newly added Divisi Modes it's a killer imo...


----------



## dadadave

Damarus said:


> Anyone here using Divisimate with Infinite series? Actually thinking about getting it when I pickup this bundle..


I have it and plan to use it, but will wait to really get into it until I purchase Infinite Woodwinds (when the update comes, I have Infinite Brass atm).

Checking out that free multi-divisi script is surely a good idea, maybe it's all you need. But, as I have stated elsewhere, Divisimate brings a lot more to the table (as should be expected of an expensive commercial product).


----------



## Damarus

Batrawi said:


> was it you or another guy?... sorry but I don't recall how much I've already recommeded this kontat multiscript:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...give it a try before buying Divisimate



Nope not me! Thanks for this, havent seen it!



Simon Schrenk said:


> I do. Especially with the newly added Divisi Modes it's a killer imo...



Thats what really caught my interest again.


----------



## oceanic714

I just want to say that I dig everyone's admiration for one another on this thread, specifically regarding demos and tips/tricks. It shows that the product is good enough to inspire us to share what we're doing and how we do it. Not many products can sustain such interest


----------



## I like music

oceanic714 said:


> I just want to say that I dig everyone's admiration for one another on this thread, specifically regarding demos and tips/tricks. It shows that the product is good enough to inspire us to share what we're doing and how we do it. Not many products can sustain such interest



This thread represents the "musicians helping musicians" tag of VI Control really well.


----------



## Damarus

I like music said:


> This thread represents the "musicians helping musicians" tag of VI Control really well.



This is why we must remain on the front page at all times.


----------



## El Buhdai

New snippet from an orchestration of Jingle Bells I'm working on 

So I must admit, even though I've criticized the trombones in this library, they definitely have their uses, and when paired up with the basically perfect Euphoniums in this library, you can get really, really nice short articulations and a low brass section with body (see the second attachment for an isolated example). They're definitely growing on me. It's always a joy writing stuff like this without having to surf through patches or even keyswitch to get the exact length and phrasing that you want for each note. The line is organic and musical just as long as you're willing to make it so. Hope you all enjoy!

Strings:
- CSS
- Con Moto Violin

Brass (all Infinite):
- 4 Trumpets
- 6 French Horns
- 2 Euphoniums
- 3 Trombones (3 Tenor + Bass)
- Tuba

Woodwinds (all Infinite except flutes ):
1 Piccolo (Hollywood Woodwinds)
2 Flutes (1 Hollywood, 1 Infinite)
2 Oboes
2 Clarinets
2 Bassoons

Percussion:
- Hollywood Percussion
- Hollywood Harp

P.S.: I love the Piccolo to death. I really, really hope @aaronventure can nail its tone in IW 1.2, and the way it pierces through an orchestral hall so I can finally do the stuff I did with the HO Piccolo without keyswitches or sacrificing tone.


----------



## Sean J

Damarus said:


> This is why we must remain on the front page at all times.



See, I always thought RedBanned should have never existed... or the Mike Verta subforum on VI-Control (for those who know what I'm talking about). If anyone gets their own sub on VI-Control, it should be Aaron.

We certainly make enough noise. 

This is when Mike Greene bans the lot of us. Reason: cult getting too sketchy.
To be fair, Spitfire gets enough of a following on here that we're probably fine as long as we keep to ourselves (something that for the record, I don't do).


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> New snippet from an orchestration of Jingle Bells I'm working on



Its nice! but is is clipping lol? I hear static..


----------



## El Buhdai

Damarus said:


> Its nice! but is is clipping lol? I hear static..



Hmm, I don't see any peaks on the waveform. That's strange... I don't hear what you're talking about either, so I'm deaf, terrible at mixing, or both.


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> Hmm, I don't see any peaks on the waveform. That's strange... I don't hear what you're talking about either, so I'm deaf, terrible at mixing, or both.



WEIRD - I was on a different computer and heard clipping-like static. But on the DAW machine, definitely nothing..


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> New snippet from an orchestration of Jingle Bells I'm working on
> 
> So I must admit, even though I've criticized the trombones in this library, they definitely have their uses, and when paired up with the basically perfect Euphoniums in this library, you can get really, really nice short articulations and a low brass section with body (see the second attachment for an isolated example). They're definitely growing on me. It's always a joy writing stuff like this without having to surf through patches or even keyswitch to get the exact length and phrasing that you want for each note. The line is organic and musical just as long as you're willing to make it so. Hope you all enjoy!
> 
> Strings:
> - CSS
> - Con Moto Violin
> 
> Brass (all Infinite):
> - 4 Trumpets
> - 6 French Horns
> - 2 Euphoniums
> - 3 Trombones (3 Tenor + Bass)
> - Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds (all Infinite except flutes ):
> 1 Piccolo (Hollywood Woodwinds)
> 2 Flutes (1 Hollywood, 1 Infinite)
> 2 Oboes
> 2 Clarinets
> 2 Bassoons
> 
> Percussion:
> - Hollywood Percussion
> - Hollywood Harp
> 
> P.S.: I love the Piccolo to death. I really, really hope @aaronventure can nail its tone in IW 1.2, and the way it pierces through an orchestral hall so I can finally do the stuff I did with the HO Piccolo without keyswitches or sacrificing tone.



YES! Sounds absolutely wonderful. The brass has great punch and sensitivity.

What brass hall/settings are these? Also just mix position on CSS? And HWP is Gold or diamond?

Nice arrangement. Not overdone (like most of them are)


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> New snippet from an orchestration of Jingle Bells I'm working on
> 
> So I must admit, even though I've criticized the trombones in this library, they definitely have their uses, and when paired up with the basically perfect Euphoniums in this library, you can get really, really nice short articulations and a low brass section with body (see the second attachment for an isolated example). They're definitely growing on me. It's always a joy writing stuff like this without having to surf through patches or even keyswitch to get the exact length and phrasing that you want for each note. The line is organic and musical just as long as you're willing to make it so. Hope you all enjoy!
> 
> Strings:
> - CSS
> - Con Moto Violin
> 
> Brass (all Infinite):
> - 4 Trumpets
> - 6 French Horns
> - 2 Euphoniums
> - 3 Trombones (3 Tenor + Bass)
> - Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds (all Infinite except flutes ):
> 1 Piccolo (Hollywood Woodwinds)
> 2 Flutes (1 Hollywood, 1 Infinite)
> 2 Oboes
> 2 Clarinets
> 2 Bassoons
> 
> Percussion:
> - Hollywood Percussion
> - Hollywood Harp
> 
> P.S.: I love the Piccolo to death. I really, really hope @aaronventure can nail its tone in IW 1.2, and the way it pierces through an orchestral hall so I can finally do the stuff I did with the HO Piccolo without keyswitches or sacrificing tone.




Just curious did you use IB close mics at all?

Between this and a few other demos, I'm having second thoughts about eliminating the close mic in my own mix. Originally I removed it because it seemed to have minor phasing with the other mics, but I'm wondering if that will go unnoticed, or even feel correct, when things are performed like this =)


----------



## Batrawi

shawnsingh said:


> Just curious did you use IB close mics at all?
> 
> Between this and a few other demos, I'm having second thoughts about eliminating the close mic in my own mix.


My thoughts as well. IB sounds too upfront/overpunchy in this snippet... probably bcoz of the close mics


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Aaron, this thread is almost 2,000 posts.... congrats on being like 1/4 of a spitfire speculation thread 

You were always level headed, but I am curious to know how things have changed going from the customer to the developer


----------



## shawnsingh

Batrawi said:


> My thoughts as well. IB sounds too upfront/overpunchy in this snippet... probably bcoz of the close mics



Whoops I actually felt the other way. I previously did eliminate close mic and I'm thinking I should bring it back.


----------



## I like music

I think a bit of close mics adds a nice sheen. I had removed them for a few weeks, and then when I AB'ed them against the same basic set up with some close mics, I was converted again, and now keep the close mics in.

Actually, to be more accurate, I just use positions 3/4 in the Mix-Mic settings. Allows you to get a nice cut-through sharpness at the top dynamics.


----------



## Jamus

If it's any help to anyone I sometimes low shelf everything starting from the mids and chuck seventh heaven on there, using only close mics. The low end is what seems to make it feel too close.


----------



## doctoremmet

Babaghanoush said:


> I'm really interested in this product and the information about it in this thread. But at nearly 2000 posts it's unlikely I'll wade through the entire thing. I'm sure there's good info in here but it's so long and often wanders off-topic. Is there a fix?
> 
> Can it, should it be split, restarted, or other?


There is the Aaron Venture website with lots of information. And there are users here, ask away! Or start your own new thread with those questions, so they don’t get lost here.


----------



## doctoremmet

Because if you want to split this thread up in parts, what are the criteria and what topics would you want to split? And someone still has to put in the same amount of time as you would reading all 2000 posts. It’s how forum threads work over time, there are no fixes


----------



## gedlig

Babaghanoush said:


> I'm really interested in this product and the information about it in this thread. But at nearly 2000 posts it's unlikely I'll wade through the entire thing. I'm sure there's good info in here but it's so long and often wanders off-topic. Is there a fix?
> 
> Can it, should it be split, restarted, or other?


Took me like 1-2 weeks to read through everything when it was ~80-88 pages so it's not that bad :D Ain't no way in hell I'd read through the entirety of the BBCSO thread.


----------



## Sean J

1) I'm starting to get very uncomfortable by his silence.
2) As it's page 100, I want my name listed here. It's an Infinite historic moment.
3) I wrote a review of Infinite yesterday, which made me realize...

Aaron, have you thought about selling your libraries on Sweetwater or Splice? And while you're here, given that we're at pg 100, I think now is a good time to release a an update or library or both.


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> Because if you want to split this thread up in parts, what are the criteria and what topics would you want to split? And someone still has to put in the same amount of time as you would reading all 2000 posts. It’s how forum threads work over time, there are no fixes


And crucially, there is mathematically no point in splitting an Infinite thread. All the resulting sub-threads will be just as Infinite. If anything, you'll have just created *more* Infinity.


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> 1) I'm starting to get very uncomfortable by his silence.
> 2) As it's page 100, I want my name listed here. It's an Infinite historic moment.
> 3) I wrote a review of Infinite yesterday, which made me realize...
> 
> Aaron, have you thought about selling your libraries on Sweetwater or Splice? And while you're here, given that we're at pg 100, I think now is a good time to release a an update or library or both.



I'm on page 1 so I want to be on page 100 aswell!!


----------



## Sean J

Oh yeah, well I'm on page 100 TWICE now! BA HA HA HA!!!

Okay, I'll stop.

But with this waste of space, I'll at least promise to deliver a demo soon. I did 17 bars of HZ in StaffPad the other day (I was stranded and bored). I'll upload it with Infinite Brass today. It's not much, but it gets me a 2nd post in the Infinite hall of fame... so...


----------



## DANIELE

scoredfilms said:


> Oh yeah, well I'm on page 100 TWICE now! BA HA HA HA!!!
> 
> Okay, I'll stop.
> 
> But with this waste of space, I'll at least promise to deliver a demo soon. I did 17 bars of HZ in StaffPad the other day (I was stranded and bored). I'll upload it with Infinite Brass today. It's not much, but it gets me a 2nd post in the Infinite hall of fame... so...



Oh well I'm on page 1 twice, and now even on page 100 twice!! 

I'm still on the mountains so Aaron...take your time!!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> YES! Sounds absolutely wonderful. The brass has great punch and sensitivity.
> 
> What brass hall/settings are these? Also just mix position on CSS? And HWP is Gold or diamond?
> 
> Nice arrangement. Not overdone (like most of them are)



Thanks!

IB:
- Mozarteum & too many slightly different mic settings per instrument to lay it all out here.

CSS:
- 1st & 2nd Violins use ~6 dB of Close, 0 dB of Mid, and ~4.2 of Room mics.
- Violas use 6 dB of Close, 0 dB of Mid, and 3.9 dB of Room
- Celli use6 dB of Close, 0 dB of Mid, and -0.2 dB of Room

HWP is Gold.



Batrawi said:


> My thoughts as well. IB sounds too upfront/overpunchy in this snippet... probably bcoz of the close mics



Yeah I always tend to go for a fairly close, intimate mix. As you can imagine I get a lot of criticism for that from other composers because it's not exactly "realistic" depending on how far I take that philosophy.  That's fine though, I'm continuing to work on making sure the frequency response of my mix is as balanced and natural as possible, and then I just do whatever I want in terms of distance and reverb.



shawnsingh said:


> Just curious did you use IB close mics at all?
> 
> Between this and a few other demos, I'm having second thoughts about eliminating the close mic in my own mix. Originally I removed it because it seemed to have minor phasing with the other mics, but I'm wondering if that will go unnoticed, or even feel correct, when things are performed like this =)



Yes, plenty of close mics just like out of the box. I tend to use Infinite Brass fairly close to the way it sounds out of the box, making only minor enhancements to improve the way ensembles sound by adding extra depth between the individual instruments and eq'ing out harsh frequencies. So while many instruments use mixed mics in various positions, the ones that don't haven't really been tampered with that much. Load the default state of the patches and it should be same or close to it.

Also, hooray for 100 pages! I'm now in the history books as well.


----------



## Batrawi

Babaghanoush said:


> Is there a fix?


spend some cash and just get the libraries


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> I think a bit of close mics adds a nice sheen. I had removed them for a few weeks, and then when I AB'ed them against the same basic set up with some close mics, I was converted again, and now keep the close mics in.
> 
> Actually, to be more accurate, I just use positions 3/4 in the Mix-Mic settings. Allows you to get a nice cut-through sharpness at the top dynamics.



1 and 2's are here for me...







Then the rest is either more close or more ambient depending on the section.

By default the close is a bit much, but to be fair, many great scoring sessions sound as "in your face". A lot of demos I've heard are too wet for my taste.


----------



## Kent

scoredfilms said:


> 1 and 2's are here for me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the rest is either more close or more ambient depending on the section.
> 
> By default the close is a bit much, but to be fair, many great scoring sessions sound as "in your face". A lot of demos I've heard are too wet for my taste.


I think the spectrum between LASS and Hollywood Orchestra is the perfect amount of spatial information upon which to add an additional glue verb. IB can do that amount of ER material no problem.


----------



## Jamus

Will we see an Aaron Venture sample player in the future? "Infinite Stage"? Utilising concepts limited in Kontakt, such as being able to individually route those mic perspectives to their own stereo outs?


----------



## doctoremmet

Jamus said:


> Will we see an Aaron Venture sample player in the future? "Infinite Stage"? Utilising concepts limited in Kontakt, such as being able to individually route those mic perspectives to their own stereo outs?


2022, when IP has been released Aaron will go on and build a player, disrupting Kontakt, Falcon and all DAWs in the process.


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> 2022, when IP has been released Aaron will go on and build a player, disrupting Kontakt, Falcon and all DAWs in the process.


And that's just a staging post on the road to Infinite Mind, his forthcoming patented telepathic-implant MIDI-controller. No key-switches? No keys, mate.


----------



## Knomes

Message N. 2000!


----------



## Damarus

I think I had a dream about the update + IS last night. Yeah cause I remember seeing my bank account have a nice dip in it too


----------



## Sean J

Damarus said:


> I think I had a dream about the update + IS last night. Yeah cause I remember seeing my bank account have a nice dip in it too



A one time dip with genius updates...

I had a dream too. In mine I told you it was worth it.


----------



## Damarus

scoredfilms said:


> A one time dip with genius updates...
> 
> I had a dream too. In mine I told you it was worth it.



Oh 100%. Its more about budget timing right now


----------



## ansthenia

I missed my chance to be on page 100. For this reason, I am no longer interested in the Infinite series, nor do I care about writing music at all. This cut me deep guys....


----------



## Damarus

ansthenia said:


> I missed my chance to be on page 100. For this reason, I am no longer interested in the Infinite series, nor do I care about writing music at all. This cut me deep guys....



Quick, start reporting comments so they get deleted


----------



## doctoremmet

decredis said:


> Infinite Mind


AKA “The Singularity” when Infinite DAW reaches self awareness and fuses itself with Wintermute and Cyberdyne Systems.


----------



## Jamus

Damarus said:


> Quick, start reporting comments so they get deleted



This is clearly harrassment, delete this comment first!! 🙃

Now when Aaron says in IS you'll be able to build sections do you think it will be Solo+4+3+3 kind of setup or will he go so far as to build 8 violins with humanize functions? It seems clunky but honestly since the RAM usage is so low I'd still go for it 😂 Maybe a button that adds in unisons sort of like how Embertones solo strings ensemble mode works?


----------



## Kent

Knomes said:


> Message N. 2000!


----------



## doctoremmet

Jamus said:


> Maybe a button that adds in unisons sort of like how Embertones solo strings ensemble mode works?


I gather it will resemble this, yes.


----------



## Jamus

doctoremmet said:


> I gather it will resemble this, yes.



Darn, I was hoping for a 60 piece string ensemble with 60 individual players 🤣


----------



## El Buhdai

Damarus said:


> I think I had a dream about the update + IS last night. Yeah cause I remember seeing my bank account have a nice dip in it too



My irresponsibly large purchase arrived today. So should yours. 

Here, I'll help you out... 









Infinite Brass — Aaron Venture


Your personal live brass ensemble - playable virtual instruments for NI Kontakt. Perform all articulations with infinite variety. Build your own sections from 26 solo brass instruments and position them as you please in 3 different real spaces, then dial in your preferred mix of 3 different micropho




www.aaronventure.com












Infinite Woodwinds — Aaron Venture


Welcome to the Next Generation of Woodwinds - playable virtual instruments for NI Kontakt. Perform all articulations with infinite variety. Build your own sections from 27 solo woodwind instruments and position them as you please in 4 different real spaces, then dial in your preferred mix of 3 diffe




www.aaronventure.com


----------



## doctoremmet

Jamus said:


> Darn, I was hoping for a 60 piece string ensemble with 60 individual players 🤣


Just like Embertone....
except Aaron’s ensemble button goes up all the way to 60! (it’s a freakin’ HUGE button)


----------



## Damarus

El Buhdai said:


> My irresponsibly large purchase arrived today. So should yours.
> 
> Here, I'll help you out...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Brass — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> Your personal live brass ensemble - playable virtual instruments for NI Kontakt. Perform all articulations with infinite variety. Build your own sections from 26 solo brass instruments and position them as you please in 3 different real spaces, then dial in your preferred mix of 3 different micropho
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> Welcome to the Next Generation of Woodwinds - playable virtual instruments for NI Kontakt. Perform all articulations with infinite variety. Build your own sections from 27 solo woodwind instruments and position them as you please in 4 different real spaces, then dial in your preferred mix of 3 diffe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com



 

This thread and that site have become my most visited for a few weeks now..

Once I potentially close on a house here soon i'll join the club


----------



## Sean J

I posted a poll on some brass demos...

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/poll-brass-comparison-batman.97688

I won't say exactly what's what yet... but anyone's who's read this thread knows I use several libraries. There's some interesting comparisons to be made. It's not quite a simple A/B comparison.


----------



## Jamus

Regarding IS has there been any mention of things like Sul pont and Sul tasto? Since woodwinds have flutters and growls I wonder what these controls will be for strings. I'm imagining best case scenario things included: Con sordino, Sul tasto, Sul pont, harmonics, finger position or on X string.

Now I would be amazed if like the clarinets the strings would have a low velocity glide that equates to aleatoric glissandos, even more so if this can be applied to tremolos and Sul pont 🤤


----------



## doctoremmet

Jamus said:


> Regarding IS has there been any mention of things like Sul pont and Sul tasto? Since woodwinds have flutters and growls I wonder what these controls will be for strings. I'm imagining best case scenario things included: Con sordino, Sul tasto, Sul pont, harmonics, finger position or on X string.
> 
> Now I would be amazed if like the clarinets the strings would have a low velocity glide that equates to aleatoric glissandos, even more so if this can be applied to tremolos and Sul pont 🤤


Don’t push your luck. Also, don’t give Aaron any new ideas for IS1.1 before 1.0 is out, jeez!


----------



## vicontrolu

I always wished for a control to add "air" to the saxophones (i think brass could benefit from this too). I dont mean high frequency boost but clear air sound going through the instrument.

Any updates on the saxophones on this or other regards for the upcoming WW update?

Cant wait!


----------



## Terry93D

I imagine that the IS are going to, by necessity, include more CC controllers than the Brass or Woodwinds, and, again by necessity, include at least a few keyswitches.


----------



## doctoremmet

Terry93D said:


> I imagine that the IS are going to, by necessity, include more CC controllers than the Brass or Woodwinds, and, again by necessity, include at least a few keyswitches.


Please no keyswitches!


----------



## Jamus

doctoremmet said:


> Please no keyswitches!



I share this opinion 😁 Tremolo could go on sustain pedal, pizz could go on soft pedal with CC1 switching between pizz and col legno as Aaron mentioned he was considering 👍


----------



## Wenlone

doctoremmet said:


> Please no keyswitches!


I don't agree with that. Keeping keyswitches minimum as possible is great but "no keyswitch" goal could make things even more complicated. Especially when programming midi. Strings probably will need keyswitches for Arco,Pizzicato,Col legno etc.


----------



## I like music

I guess I'm not a dev, but I can't think of elegant ways to avoid keyswitches, when it comes to strings. 

You're almost talking about a different instrument when the technique goes from bowing to pizz. Would be like punching your french horn in the mouthpiece. I bet that'd need a keyswitch, no matter which library!

Aaron, can we punch the french horn on the mouthpiece in 1.5?


----------



## Beans

Yeah, I don't want any one method to become too complicated. I don't want 20 KSs, but I also don't want to manage 20 CCs.

I'm just hoping we get a new thread when an update arrives.


----------



## Jamus

If there are key switches I hope they can be the non latching type 👍 I really don't like having key switch notes in my piano roll though, and it's frustrating when I click somewhere in the piano roll and it activates an articulation.


----------



## decredis

Have to say, I'd prefer to have the option when controlling categorical variables (like pizz vs arco) to use CC (<64 vs >=64) or keyswitch.


----------



## Jamus

decredis said:


> Have to say, I'd prefer to have the option when controlling categorical variables (like pizz vs arco) to use CC (<64 vs >=64) or keyswitch.



This is why I was immediately sold on Berlin strings some years ago. The CAPSULE freedom to assign things however you wanted 👍


----------



## I like music

Imagine if he got so sick of this thread, that he decided not to continue developing the strings?


----------



## Batrawi

I'm only worried about the tone of the strings and the legatos.. that's the real beast Aaron will have challenges with.... otherwise things like keyswitches & ideal instrument design etc.. would be a piece of cake for Aaron, I'm sure he would make everyone happy


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> I'm only worried about the tone of the strings and the legatos.. that's the real beast Aaron will have challenges with.... otherwise things like keyswitches & ideal instrument design etc.. would be a piece of cake for Aaron, I'm sure he would make everyone happy



Have a feeling this will be a whole different tonal beast of a challenge compared to the woods and brass. I'm not letting myself get too excited. 




Wait, now I am.


----------



## Jamus

I'm not worried about it. I think Aaron's ways show great promise, and let's not forget this whole "future proof" deal. This gets my instant loyalty. Infinite Loyalty you might say? Aaron Ventures new Infinite Loyalty reward points plugin!? For every dashing woodwind run or brilliant brass fanfare you earn Venture points toward your next purchase! 🤣🤣


----------



## lettucehat

I like music said:


> I guess I'm not a dev, but I can't think of elegant ways to avoid keyswitches, when it comes to strings.
> 
> You're almost talking about a different instrument when the technique goes from bowing to pizz. Would be like punching your french horn in the mouthpiece. I bet that'd need a keyswitch, no matter which library!
> 
> Aaron, can we punch the french horn on the mouthpiece in 1.5?



Sample Modeling strings handles this pretty well. There's no way around needing a few keyswitches or CCs unfortunately, other than mind reading.


----------



## Sean J

You're all crazy.

What I'd do:

Tremolo and Flutter can be treated on the same CC number, but with trem speed being controlled. This is far more agile for performance than a keyswitch.
Pizz, whether keyswitch or not, ought to be a trem-pizz based on the same CC.

Keyswitches, sandbox, capsule, and most proprietary samplers out there all treat instruments as sound-slot recorded and confined collections... instead of as instruments. That's part of why I love Infinite so much. Modeling could obviously get so modular that you have too many controls. I'm not worried about this though. Aaron has been keen on balancing too much / too little from the start. As long as IS comes out before the end of the world (most likely Dec 31 2020), then we'll all be okay.

The "crazy" remark has no bearing on this current discussion. I just wanted to remind everyone we're part of an exclusive club here on VI-Control.


----------



## Jamus

Okay, so I was still thinking of it like it was a traditional sample library that had strictly recorded and not modelled articulations. Tremolo speed never even occurred to me. 😅


----------



## El Buhdai

I'm still being conservative about my excitement for this library personally, because there's so much about this that could go wrong, and in addition it's just going to be hard to do this as elegantly as he did the other two libraries all while preserving tone and a streamlined level of control.

I'll likely purchase it for soloists and the extra bit of rarer content that he told me about, but as for sections, I still have my doubts about it surpassing CSS, and definitely have doubts about it surpassing Hollywood Strings (I know it might be a bit of a hot take but I think HS sounds better than CSS... unless you're trying to write something too quiet haha). Though if the other libraries are any indication, I might not have to worry too much, and Infinite Strings might be able to sound like _both_ of my strings libraries.

I'll also be purchasing it as a donation and a "thank you" for all the incredible pro-consumerism on display with his free overhauls and updates, even if I don't like its sound at launch.


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> and the extra bit of rarer content that he told me about



You keep taunting. For shame!

I agree that strings seem like they'd be the hardest to pull off, but I'd have also guessed that the flute would have been easier than all of the brass. The strings could very well be his best library. Tomorrowland, whether one likes the film or not, had a great moral to the story. When you look for bad, you often find it.

Infinite Strings is going to make 2020 a great year!


----------



## Jamus

Aaron's "future proof" philosophy makes it an easy decision for me 😁


----------



## DivingInSpace

El Buhdai said:


> I'll likely purchase it for soloists and the extra bit of rarer content that he told me about, but as for sections, I still have my doubts about it surpassing CSS, and definitely have doubts about it surpassing Hollywood Strings (I know it might be a bit of a hot take but I think HS sounds better than CSS... unless you're trying to write something too quiet haha). Though if the other libraries are any indication, I might not have to worry too much, and Infinite Strings might be able to sound like _both_ of my strings libraries.


I personally doubt that it will sound as good as CSS, but a point where CSS is lacking and i'm sure IS will be exceptional is playability, which will make it a much better tool for the writing proces. I hate using CSS for writing, so even if eventually shift out IS with CSS in the end product, having it for the writing proces will be pure gold.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I'm still being conservative about my excitement for this library personally, because there's so much about this that could go wrong, and in addition it's just going to be hard to do this as elegantly as he did the other two libraries all while preserving tone and a streamlined level of control.
> 
> I'll likely purchase it for soloists and the extra bit of rarer content that he told me about, but as for sections, I still have my doubts about it surpassing CSS, and definitely have doubts about it surpassing Hollywood Strings (I know it might be a bit of a hot take but I think HS sounds better than CSS... unless you're trying to write something too quiet haha). Though if the other libraries are any indication, I might not have to worry too much, and Infinite Strings might be able to sound like _both_ of my strings libraries.
> 
> I'll also be purchasing it as a donation and a "thank you" for all the incredible pro-consumerism on display with his free overhauls and updates, even if I don't like its sound at launch.


HS to me has the best overall sound for me (though contextually so does CSS for me).


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I'm still being conservative about my excitement for this library personally, because there's so much about this that could go wrong, and in addition it's just going to be hard to do this as elegantly as he did the other two libraries all while preserving tone and a streamlined level of control.
> 
> I'll likely purchase it for soloists and the extra bit of rarer content that he told me about, but as for sections, I still have my doubts about it surpassing CSS, and definitely have doubts about it surpassing Hollywood Strings (I know it might be a bit of a hot take but I think HS sounds better than CSS... unless you're trying to write something too quiet haha). Though if the other libraries are any indication, I might not have to worry too much, and Infinite Strings might be able to sound like _both_ of my strings libraries.
> 
> I'll also be purchasing it as a donation and a "thank you" for all the incredible pro-consumerism on display with his free overhauls and updates, even if I don't like its sound at launch.



I'm optimistic about IS, I think that Aaron could reach a very high level, and even if the library doesn't sound so good with V 1.0 he already showed us how much care he puts into his work, I'm confident that he will push it to perfection even if he need to make a lot of updates to achieve the objective.

Actually I like SM Strings even if they need a lot of work to get a good sound out of it (and this is also what I like about the library). I know that SM will keep working on them to get better results and if a library like this already exist I think it is possible to get another great strings playable library.

I prefer to struggle to get a good sounding strings ensemble or solos, like real musicians do, that having something already cooked and ready to use. Here it is a matter of tastes I think.

I don't want to be the super hyped guy, I also try to stay with foot well placed on earth, but I'm also very curious to try the library and I'm confident about the result, I trust Aaron work because I already like what I bought and I love his support.


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> I prefer to struggle to get a good sounding strings ensemble or solos, like real musicians do, that having something already cooked and ready to use. Here it is a matter of tastes I think.



This is the reason I regret purchasing Cinestrings Solo. They're nice but so easily recognisable. It's more or less impossible to have an original sound with this library because the style of it is as baked in as it gets. The short notes are fun though 😁


----------



## DANIELE

Jamus said:


> This is the reason I regret purchasing Cinestrings Solo. They're nice but so easily recognisable. It's more or less impossible to have an original sound with this library because the style of it is as baked in as it gets. The short notes are fun though 😁



Yeah, this and the fact that you have total freedom.

I reached a good result with SM Strings by working on them a lot and I'm convinced that I could get a better one by keep working on them. The same will be with IS. There's no limit if you have the right amount of time and I can't wait to see what's coming next, even with choirs and his own sampler.


----------



## lettucehat

DANIELE said:


> I'm optimistic about IS, I think that Aaron could reach a very high level, and even if the library doesn't sound so good with V 1.0 he already showed us how much care he puts into his work, I'm confident that he will push it to perfection even if he need to make a lot of updates to achieve the objective.
> 
> Actually I like SM Strings even if they need a lot of work to get a good sound out of it (and this is also what I like about the library). I know that SM will keep working on them to get better results and if a library like this already exist I think it is possible to get another great strings playable library.
> 
> I prefer to struggle to get a good sounding strings ensemble or solos, like real musicians do, that having something already cooked and ready to use. Here it is a matter of tastes I think.
> 
> I don't want to be the super hyped guy, I also try to stay with foot well placed on earth, but I'm also very curious to try the library and I'm confident about the result, I trust Aaron work because I already like what I bought and I love his support.



I have too many string libraries at the moment so I won't be getting IS right away, but my hope is that between IS and SM strings, over time (or upon IS' release, who knows!) we will ultimately get the first realistic modeled cello and cello section. Basses too. I really like SM but my god do we have a long way to go with the timbre, for whatever esoteric reasons I could never begin to understand. SWAM isn't even close and you have to create your own ensemble if you wanted to as well. Hope one of the first two companies can really overcome this challenge, preferably the one I already own, but...


----------



## El Buhdai

Jamus said:


> This is the reason I regret purchasing Cinestrings Solo. They're nice but so easily recognisable. It's more or less impossible to have an original sound with this library because the style of it is as baked in as it gets. The short notes are fun though 😁



Same with CSS in regards to a "baked" sound, though it's slightly more flexible and can be twisted a bit depending on your writing. Write epic with it and it's a dead giveaway though..


----------



## PerryD

Ha! Typing "Aaron Venture" in Google here in Georgia brought up an Aaron's appliance store on Venture Drive.


----------



## Jamus

Let's start a fundraiser to purchase this location for Aaron 👍👍


----------



## pierrevigneron

Aaron, do you think you can tell us now if the price of IS will approach IB or a price beyond it ? (which would be quite justified given the greater complexity, and the number of instruments, flexibility etc ...)
Yours


----------



## Kent

That Aaron’s is in my hometown of Duluth, Georgia!


----------



## Beans

Do we have an ETA on Strings, even a rough one (next month vs end of year vs early 2021)? The thread is... unwieldy.

My budget for what I allow myself for new library purchases is on its last hurrah, and it feels like a lot is about to come out in the next couple of months.


----------



## pierrevigneron

second question: (and sorry if it has already been asked): will there be patches to distribute the notes of a three-note chord from three patches? (the highest at the top, and the lowest at the bottom patch)


----------



## Wenlone

pierrevigneron said:


> second question: (and sorry if it has already been asked): will there be patches to distribute the notes of a three-note chord from three patches? (the highest at the top, and the lowest at the bottom patch)


Yes. There will be auto-divisi with infinite strings. Aaron's himself said this a while ago.


----------



## Sean J

Beans said:


> ETA on Strings, even a rough one...



These posters were edited. They both used to say 2020.







1) Strings are still 2020, thus very likely
2) Aaron did say Covid isn't delaying it as _the strings are recorded_
3) Aaron's reasons have only to do with improving existing products first
4) Once everyone weighs in on their satisfaction of the Woodwind update...

Then we'll probably hear from Aaron on when. ilikemusic will most likely offer a highly calculated guess based on Aaron's eyebrow movements in the Woodwind video. Usually Aaron says what he's working on, so I'd ask a couple weeks after the IW update.



Beans said:


> The thread is... unwieldy.



To be fair, all of VI-Control gets unwieldy after page 3. Let's face the facts of what composers are.

We're creatures that get distrac


----------



## DANIELE

Sean J said:


> These posters were edited. They both used to say 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Strings are still 2020, thus very likely
> 2) Aaron did say Covid isn't delaying it as _the strings are recorded_
> 3) Aaron's reasons have only to do with improving existing products first
> 4) Once everyone weighs in on their satisfaction of the Woodwind update...
> 
> Then we'll probably hear from Aaron on when. ilikemusic will most likely offer a highly calculated guess based on Aaron's eyebrow movements in the Woodwind video. Usually Aaron says what he's working on, so I'd ask a couple weeks after the IW update.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, all of VI-Control gets unwieldy after page 3. Let's face the facts of what composers are.
> 
> We're creatures that get distrac



Yeah, he said that Percussion will require some more time due to covid and other things.

I won't expect strings before november and I'm optimistic.


----------



## TGV

I prefer a good product, even knowing that Aron is planning to keepin improving, than an early launch. Launching a buggy product can bring too much negative publicity, and scare people away forever. Let's not press too much.


----------



## Beans

I'm certainly not wanting anyone to rush, but it is nice to plan out purchases based on a rough idea of what may be coming and approximately when. It helps keep unexpected sales elsewhere from eating budget for someone I'm wanting to support once their release is ready.


----------



## PerryD

Hey Michelangelo! When is that darn ceiling gonna be done so we can start on the bathrooms?!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I was asking this in general, for all instruments, not specifically for IS


Wenlone said:


> Yes. There will be auto-divisi with infinite strings. Aaron's himself said this a while ago.


----------



## El Buhdai

kmaster said:


> That Aaron’s is in my hometown of Duluth, Georgia!



Multiple fellow Georgians here I see!


----------



## Jamus

pierrevigneron said:


> I was asking this in general, for all instruments, not specifically for IS



Oh gawdd pleaseee


----------



## El Buhdai

Sean J said:


> 2) Aaron did say Covid isn't delaying it as _the strings are recorded_



In light of this, I'm just gonna say it. I hope Aaron doesn't smite me for revealing this. If he had explicitly said it was a secret I'd never share it, but hopefully he's cool with this...

_Electric Strings_

Given how crazy this year has been, his plans could have changed, who knows? I don't hold him to this, and I don't think anyone else should either, but it would be very interesting if it made it to 1.0!


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> In light of this, I'm just gonna say it. I hope Aaron doesn't smite me for revealing this. If he had explicitly said it was a secret I'd never share it, but hopefully he's cool with this...
> 
> _Electric Strings_
> 
> Given how crazy this year has been, his plans could have changed, who knows? I don't hold him to this, and I don't think anyone else should either, but it would be very interesting if it made it to 1.0!



Honestly that was my first guess but I thought octobass was funnier 🤣


----------



## Sean J

El Buhdai said:


> _Electric Strings_



But why stop there when you we could have the AV definitive _*Prepared Strings*_ collection?



Aaron once shared something with me in an email and asked me not to share it. This was months back, and not about IS. It's now public info anyway. I never shared it. I still won't even say what it was simply cause he had asked. But if he didn't tell you not to share it, I'm sure you're fine. 

There's plenty of options to expand a string library. Electric isn't bad, I'd just hope ethnic options would make it in first honestly. They have far more emotive uses IMHO.

Erhu
Crwth / Lyre
Hardingfele
Viola da Gamba
Violones

All of those be great with AV's agility in mind. BUT... I'd personally rather IS come out sooner if it meant not having electric in 1.0, maybe that's just me.


----------



## Terry93D

Call me easy-to-please if you like but I'll be happy with the standard strings sections and a harp...


----------



## DANIELE

Terry93D said:


> Call me easy-to-please if you like but I'll be happy with the standard strings sections and a harp...



I'd like any addition but I'm also waiting for the standard sections in the first place. Then I'll love every addition Aaron will bring tu us (like the Cimbassi one).


----------



## Terry93D

DANIELE said:


> I'd like any addition but I'm also waiting for the standard sections in the first place. Then I'll love every addition Aaron will bring tu us (like the Cimbassi one).


Don't misunderstand me, I'd never say no to extras! Standard sections first is all, yes.


----------



## DANIELE

Terry93D said:


> Don't misunderstand me, I'd never say no to extras! Standard sections first is all, yes.



I understood what you said, for me is the same, if I have to wait to have extras then I prefer a standard V1.0 and then some tasty update after it, if I have to wait to have a better and refined product then I prefer to wait.


----------



## ansthenia

Sooo...is Aaron's silence on 1.2 a good or bad sign?


----------



## DANIELE

ansthenia said:


> Sooo...is Aaron's silence on 1.2 a good or bad sign?



Even Ilikemusic is silent now, something is happening!!


----------



## campovsky

Yeah I reckon he’s busy filming walk-throughs 🤞


----------



## El Buhdai

ansthenia said:


> Sooo...is Aaron's silence on 1.2 a good or bad sign?



It's a good sign. We experienced similar silence around the release of IB 1.4. Aaron gave a certain date, and that day came and went without a peep from him. IB 1.4 came the next day. I suspect he's in a similar crunch period, though I don't want to predict a release in the next few days because who knows what could happen at the last minute? Software development is unpredictable. Hence the reason I start my major projects weeks in advance. I never want to be frantically fixing bugs the whole day something is due ever again.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Even Ilikemusic is silent now, something is happening!!



I'm sorry. I was hitting refresh so hard on the website that I broke my hand. It got infected, and I spent 5 days in hospital. 

The Dr said the only way for me to survive is if I get to listen to the sweet sound of IW 1.2 and IB 1.5.

Aaron, will you not help a dying man?


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> The Dr said the only way for me to survive is if I get to listen to the sweet sound of IW 1.2 and IB 1.5.


I did say this - yes.

To be exact, I said: “I shall contact this shaman called Aaron Venture and I shall summon him to bestow on thee the healing and soothing tones of the 1.5 cembassi and the 1.2 double reeds in a gorgeous Mozarteum mix”

“If not thou will perish within a week”

So Aaron? Friday is fine! Cheers.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> I did say this - yes.
> 
> To be exact, I said: “I shall contact this shaman called Aaron Venture and I shall summon him to bestow on thee the healing and soothing tones of the 1.5 cembassi and the 1.2 double reeds in a gorgeous Mozarteum mix”



Thanks Doc!

Fingers crossed that your qualifications are enough to convince him to release in the next few hours!


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Thanks Doc!
> 
> Fingers crossed that your qualifications are enough to convince him to release in the next few hours!


Sure thing mate. He’s all squared-eyed from spending weeks behind his PC and malnourished from all those pizzas. He’ll never even know we were just taking the piss...


----------



## I like music

I like music said:


> Aaron's suddenly gone quiet. Based on my previous stalking, when we see a ramp in his activity, and then a sudden drop in his activity, we are approximately 32 hours from release (+/- 1hr)



My previous calculations were wrong! I updating the algorithm. Added Trump and Biden into the mix. It now says Aaron will release the libraries within 23hrs.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> My previous calculations were wrong! I updating the algorithm. Added Trump and Biden into the mix. It now says Aaron will release the libraries within 23hrs.


Damn. Of course, I can see all of that clearly now! It was always Biden.... how could we forget to include him in the models....


----------



## PerryD

doctoremmet said:


> Damn. Of course, I can see all of that clearly now! It was always Biden.... how could we forget to include him in the models....


 I play music to escape politics! It doesn't work but I try... :/ I want to play the updated woodwinds before some twisted "leader" presses the BIG delete button.


----------



## TGV

PerryD said:


> I want to play the updated woodwinds before some twisted "leader" presses the BIG delete button.


Make Woodwinds Great Again!


----------



## decredis

If we're doing political slogans, here's "Woods of the wind, update! You have nothing to lose but your chains, you have a timbre to gain!"


----------



## DANIELE

Dear Aaron, look at what is happening on this thread, please show us some mercy and post the updates so we can help all this people.


----------



## doctoremmet

“Ask not what Aaron can do for you, ask what you can do for Aaron!”

....

“Ok”

“Aaron, can we just pay you for IS. Like, now?!”


----------



## PerryD

I can only imagine the chaos if a single, short, tutti ensemble note from the updated woodwinds were posted here by Aaron. I apologize for my previous anxious humor posts here. I suppose it would be best to just envision music in my head that will be possible soon and stay away from the qwerty keyboard for now.


----------



## Beans

Someone needs to release something, because my wallet is ready for another Infinite release, HOOPUS, Cinematic Studio Woodwinds, or a VSL sale.

But not all of them.


----------



## doctoremmet

Beans said:


> Someone needs to release something, because my wallet is ready for another Infinite release, HOOPUS, Cinematic Studio Woodwinds, or a VSL sale.
> 
> But not all of them.


For some CSW reads as Century Woodwinds. I am one of those weird 8dio loving creatures. I use Century Brass alongside IB1.4, and would very much love to have a CW to accompany IB1.2. However, CW is merely a rumour - much like CSW at this point...


----------



## Jamus

doctoremmet said:


> For some CSW reads as Century Woodwinds. I am one of those weird 8dio loving creatures. I use Century Brass alongside IB1.4, and would very much love to have a CW to accompany IB1.2. However, CW is merely a rumour - much like CSW at this point...



For some CW reads as CineWinds 😂 I never know what acronyms to use for CineStrings Solo and Cinematic Studio Strings. CSS!? 😵 IW, IB and IS are a breeze.


----------



## Zanshin

I'm sorry guys I think it's my fault the new updates have not come out.

I've been trying to hold off buying the bundle in case there's a slight sale or whatever when the new version comes out. The keyword is trying, I'm getting weak though. I'm sure I'll break shortly, buy it, and then it'll be updated and on sale immediately after.


----------



## pierrevigneron

not very original but since the time I wanted to do it ... all winds are infinite brass and infinite woodwinds


----------



## pierrevigneron

here


----------



## doctoremmet

Zanshin said:


> I'm sorry guys I think it's my fault the new updates have not come out.
> 
> I've been trying to hold off buying the bundle in case there's a slight sale or whatever when the new version comes out. The keyword is trying, I'm getting weak though. I'm sure I'll break shortly, buy it, and then it'll be updated and on sale immediately after.


I remember thinking like you, afraid to miss out on deals... but Aaron is a fair guy. He’d never create one of those “haha you bought this one day too early” bundle deals.


----------



## Ricgus3

pierrevigneron said:


> here


Sounds amazing!! I think Infinite Series will be my next purchase. Everytime I hear the demos of the 1.4 brass i'm amazed by the sound for the playability. Was interested in Spitfires studio woodwinds at the sale. Cheaper, but like the Doctor answered me in the other thread: Will i just buy this later on anyway? and maybe I should just hold off until the woodiwnds update drops


----------



## doctoremmet

Ricgus3 said:


> Sounds amazing!! I think Infinite Series will be my next purchase. Everytime I hear the demos of the 1.4 brass i'm amazed by the sound for the playability. Was interested in Spitfires studio woodwinds at the sale. Cheaper, but like the Doctor answered me in the other thread: Will i just buy this later on anyway? and maybe I should just hold off until the woodiwnds update drops


Hi. We meet again today. Welcome to the REAL elite of VI-Control aka VIC Illuminati or the Infinitely Talented Chosen Ones


----------



## doctoremmet

Ricgus3 said:


> Sounds amazing!! I think Infinite Series will be my next purchase. Everytime I hear the demos of the 1.4 brass i'm amazed by the sound for the playability. Was interested in Spitfires studio woodwinds at the sale. Cheaper, but like the Doctor answered me in the other thread: Will i just buy this later on anyway? and maybe I should just hold off until the woodiwnds update drops


Honestly, at this point I’d wait for 1.2 to drop - so you can immediately incorporate all the Mozarteum goodness into your workflow right from the get-go. But there’s no telling when it actually sees a release, despite at least 10 pages of great fun about “imminent” release


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Honestly, at this point I’d wait for 1.2 to drop - so you can immediately incorporate all the Mozarteum goodness into your workflow right from the get-go. But there’s no telling when it actually sees a release, despite at least 10 pages of great fun about “imminent” release



For me, on equal footing with the possible tone improvements, is the fact that it'll be in the same spaces. Mozarteum sounds excellent with the brass. I'm wondering how it'll sound for the winds. Having it all placed in the same hall will be wonderful!


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> For me, on equal footing with the possible tone improvements, is the fact that it'll be in the same spaces. Mozarteum sounds excellent with the brass. I'm wondering how it'll sound for the winds. Having it all placed in the same hall will be wonderful!


Yes, basically I wanted to say this but didn’t express myself properly. Thanks!


----------



## unclecheeks

I like music said:


> For me, on equal footing with the possible tone improvements, is the fact that it'll be in the same spaces. Mozarteum sounds excellent with the brass. I'm wondering how it'll sound for the winds. Having it all placed in the same hall will be wonderful!



I don't think Aaron's libraries are locked, afaik, so if you already own IB you could probably batch resave the library as .wav, find the ir file, then drop it into convolver of your choice to use with IW.


----------



## Ricgus3

doctoremmet said:


> Hi. We meet again today. Welcome to the REAL elite of VI-Control aka VIC Illuminati or the Infinitely Talented Chosen Ones


Thankyou! Yes I have been reading this thread a little! Watching and listening to some Brass 1.4 and they sound alook super nice! i think your advice is right, even if I pay just about 120 for SstWW I will want to have this. No more keyswtiches, less Ram and Cpu heavy. So many good things.


----------



## doctoremmet

Ricgus3 said:


> Thankyou! Yes I have been reading this thread a little! Watching and listening to some Brass 1.4 and they sound alook super nice! i think your advice is right, even if I pay just about 120 for SstWW I will want to have this. No more keyswtiches, less Ram and Cpu heavy. So many good things.


It runs easily on my ancient laptop. I can just play for hours. It sounds good and will only get better. There’s much to love. Which doesn’t take anything away from the fact that SStW for $140 is a great deal.


----------



## Ricgus3

doctoremmet said:


> It runs easily on my ancient laptop. I can just play for hours. It sounds good and will only get better. There’s much to love. Which doesn’t take anything away from the fact that SStW for $140 is a great deal.


Would sstww and IW complement each other well?


----------



## El Buhdai

Ricgus3 said:


> Would sstww and IW complement each other well?



Anything with a good english horn, bassoons, and flutes will be a nice complement to IW.


----------



## DANIELE

Ricgus3 said:


> Would sstww and IW complement each other well?



I think every composer should aim at only one library for section, with the technology whe are seeing this days there's almost no reason to continue with the "ancient" layering method. When I discovered this it seemed to me a great technique to get a fuller and richer sound, today I almost avoid it as much as I can because it is almost like playing with Lego (and I love Lego so much) and not composing.

I also like already IW even if I feel that it needs some improvements. I'm waiting 1.2 to post my last track with IW updated, just for comparison purposes.

From what I see in IB 1.4 I already can tell you that you will use IW 1.2 alone and it will be great!!

PS this night I dreamed about Cimbassi, no kidding. I was listening to their great low sharp sound in my dreams and when I woke up I was convinced that I already had 1.5 on my PC. :D
Is it a bad sign?


----------



## stfciu

DANIELE said:


> I think every composer should aim at only one library for section, with the technology whe are seeing this days there's almost no reason to continue with the "ancient" layering method. When I discovered this it seemed to me a great technique to get a fuller and richer sound, today I almost avoid it as much as I can because it is almost like playing with Lego (and I love Lego so much) and not composing.
> 
> I also like already IW even if I feel that it needs some improvements. I'm waiting 1.2 to post my last track with IW updated, just for comparison purposes.
> 
> From what I see in IB 1.4 I already can tell you that you will use IW 1.2 alone and it will be great!!
> 
> PS this night I dreamed about Cimbassi, no kidding. I was listening to their great low sharp sound in my dreams and when I woke up I was convinced that I already had 1.5 on my PC. :D
> Is it a bad sign?



Contrary, I think it is a great sign  Well maybe a bad sign for wallets of the poor guys like me that don't have it yet


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> I think every composer should aim at only one library for section, with the technology whe are seeing this days there's almost no reason to continue with the "ancient" layering method. When I discovered this it seemed to me a great technique to get a fuller and richer sound, today I almost avoid it as much as I can because it is almost like playing with Lego (and I love Lego so much) and not composing.
> 
> I also like already IW even if I feel that it needs some improvements. I'm waiting 1.2 to post my last track with IW updated, just for comparison purposes.
> 
> From what I see in IB 1.4 I already can tell you that you will use IW 1.2 alone and it will be great!!
> 
> PS this night I dreamed about Cimbassi, no kidding. I was listening to their great low sharp sound in my dreams and when I woke up I was convinced that I already had 1.5 on my PC. :D
> Is it a bad sign?


But.... I like playing with LEGO!


----------



## DANIELE

stfciu said:


> Contrary, I think it is a great sign  Well maybe a bad sign for wallets of the poor guys like me that don't have it yet



I'm an early adopter, I bought the library the moment I read "playability" a few days after it went out. So I already did my part!! :D


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> But.... I like playing with LEGO!



I literally LOVE Lego but not Lego Music!!


----------



## Kent

DANIELE said:


> I literally LOVE Lego but not Lego Music!!


It’s the best kind of music for a block party though


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## doctoremmet

Now... these LEGO heads know how to review their stuff!

I am now intrigued by the phrase:
“The amount of SNOT work is astonishing”....

Also, I am inclined to find a piano review thread about the Spitfire Olafur Arnalds felt piano or whatever, and just copy/paste this entire review in there with some slight edits and see what happens. Lol.


----------



## stfciu

DANIELE said:


> I literally LOVE Lego but not Lego Music!!





I actually like this song


----------



## I like music

stfciu said:


> I actually like this song




I _love_ this song. Absolutely brilliant. Same goes for the "this song's gonna get stuck inside your head" one from no. 2!


----------



## DANIELE

OMG guys, I don't know what to say anymore.

I love THAT lego song but I don't love to build music like a Lego, music that has nothing to do with Lego.


----------



## stfciu

DANIELE said:


> OMG guys, I don't know what to say anymore.
> 
> I love THAT lego song but I don't love to build music like a Lego, music that has nothing to do with Lego.


Clear for me. Just teasing with you


----------



## DANIELE

stfciu said:


> Clear for me. Just teasing with you



Yeah don't worry, I'm joking too!!


----------



## doctoremmet

I heard that Aaron releases 1.2 as soon as we hit page 120 and we get the cembassi when we hit 150. So spam away your Lego and other songs...


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

And in this thread, people have long gone completely crazy.


----------



## I like music

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And in this thread, people have long gone completely crazy.


Nah man. We finally woke up. It is time others did the same.


----------



## Beans

At this point, I'm losing sleep over the potential decisions I'll have to make. My nightmare is a VSL sale when Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition, Aaron Ventures Infinite Strings, and Cinematic Studio Woodwinds are potentially around the corner. And then Berlin Strings SINE edition being announced, or something like that.


----------



## I like music

Beans said:


> At this point, I'm losing sleep over the potential decisions I'll have to make. My nightmare is a VSL sale when Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition, Aaron Ventures Infinite Strings, and Cinematic Studio Woodwinds are potentially around the corner. And then Berlin Strings SINE edition being announced, or something like that.



Yep. Bad days for everyone's wallet...


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Yep. Bad days for everyone's wallet...


I want to get:

- Century Strings 2.0 update | $28?
- Century Woodwinds | intro $198?
- 8dio Deep Studio Quartet | $ 280
- HOOPUS (does EWHO Gold qualify) | ?
- Infinite Strings | intro/bundle $299?
- more pianos (always)

Priority: IS and CW - then HOOPUS
#firstworldproblems
#whatsthedealwithhoopussolittleinfo!


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

I like music said:


> Nah man. We finally woke up. It is time others did the same.


What do you mean Morpheus? Should we all choose the right pills?


----------



## doctoremmet

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> What do you mean Morpheus? Should we all choose the right pills?


There is no right or wrong. There’s only Infinite Looking For Good Libraries But Never Finding Them versus Infinite Strings.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

I think Morpheus is right. We are close to having something really close to the real, only this, of course, will not suit everyone, because some people already live well in matrices.


----------



## I like music

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> What do you mean Morpheus? Should we all choose the right pills?



Eat all the pills and see what happens!
(Bad idea actually, I heard!)


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Eat all the pills and see what happens!
> (Bad idea actually, I heard!)


Yes. Where would one get those pills? Not suggesting you know, but maybe you heard that too? Asking for a friend.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

I like music said:


> Eat all the pills and see what happens!
> (Bad idea actually, I heard!)


Bad, of course, because some of them have nasty fillings. Several times I came across these and one of them was with a booger. so don't just look at the wrappers. The best advice is to ask a few friends who have tried them. And it seems this forum is one of the ludzhi places to do this.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Yes. Where would one get those pills? Not suggesting you know, but maybe you heard that too? Asking for a friend.



Ain't you the doctor? You should have a cabinet full of 'em


----------



## Smoy

Ok so this thread has gone completely crazy, hello all 😀

@aaronventure do you have any ETA for IW1.2? I'm just so hyped by the bassoon demo you released.
Any hint? This week? Next Week? Next month?
PLEEEEEAAAAAASE ahahahah
Thanks!


----------



## doctoremmet

I think I’ll just get my Legos out and build me a model of Mozarteum.

Edit: just looking at that magnificent organ makes me lust after an Infinite Organ - which will destroy Haupwerk and OrganTeq. 2022.


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I think every composer should aim at only one library for section, with the technology whe are seeing this days there's almost no reason to continue with the "ancient" layering method. When I discovered this it seemed to me a great technique to get a fuller and richer sound, today I almost avoid it as much as I can because it is almost like playing with Lego (and I love Lego so much) and not composing.
> 
> I also like already IW even if I feel that it needs some improvements. I'm waiting 1.2 to post my last track with IW updated, just for comparison purposes.
> 
> From what I see in IB 1.4 I already can tell you that you will use IW 1.2 alone and it will be great!!
> 
> PS this night I dreamed about Cimbassi, no kidding. I was listening to their great low sharp sound in my dreams and when I woke up I was convinced that I already had 1.5 on my PC. :D
> Is it a bad sign?



I know a guy who insists that layering is the only way to get a decent sound (especially when using Infinite) and can't imagine using one library per section. I can get behind having a couple of options per section to choose between when first starting a song since most libraries can't do all styles, but in general, once I pick the library for each section in the song, I stick with it and commit to its style for that piece.

It's easy to compensate for a library's shortcomings by layering 2 other libraries on top of it for each section, but I think it takes a truly skillful composer to know his tools so well that he can use them by themselves and still get a convincing result.


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## Batrawi

doctoremmet said:


>




I was a bit shocked coz the guy was really polite, then all of a sudden this jumped in my face...




I had to pause to read that again


----------



## Damarus

doctoremmet said:


>




lol I have so much less patience for videos like this these days


----------



## Geocranium

Batrawi said:


> I was a bit shocked coz the guy was really polite, then all of a sudden this jumped in my face...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had to pause to read that again



Julius Fucik (pronounced foo-chick, as I was taught in school), composer of the infamous _Entry of the Gladiators_!


----------



## Batrawi

Geocranium said:


> Julius Fucik (pronounced foo-chick, as I was taught in school), composer of the infamous _Entry of the Gladiators_!



yep, I have already googled the name as well...I just wanted to make sure this wasn't a misspelling ... thanks for the info


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I know a guy who insists that layering is the only way to get a decent sound (especially when using Infinite) and can't imagine using one library per section. I can get behind having a couple of options per section to choose between when first starting a song since most libraries can't do all styles, but in general, once I pick the library for each section in the song, I stick with it and commit to its style for that piece.
> 
> It's easy to compensate for a library's shortcomings by layering 2 other libraries on top of it for each section, but I think it takes a truly skillful composer to know his tools so well that he can use them by themselves and still get a convincing result.



I agree.

This was obviously just my opinion, for me it is a matter of composing, I'm not interested in the results alone, I also like to enjoy the composition and writing process and layering is a pain in the ass for me. I used it in the past a lot but I don't want to use it anymore. That said in general I keep two libraries per section too but I try to use only one of them per track (like you). My last tracks are using only Infinite libraries and SM Strings.

I also think that doing like this force you to try to use your instruments at their best. You are forced to avoid hiding things with layering. You feel exposed, this is why you should aim to perfection only with your instrument and this kind of libraries finally give you a lot of space to improve yourself.


----------



## I like music

Did anyone else get an email from Aaron/Infinite?!?!?!?!




Me neither.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Did anyone else get an email from Aaron/Infinite?!?!?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me neither.



Here we go again!!

Well, this time is softer!!


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Did anyone else get an email from Aaron/Infinite?!?!?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me neither.



Playing with fire my friend. Playing with fire.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Ain't you the doctor? You should have a cabinet full of 'em


Look! I’ve just fetched my new pills. One to lower heart rates, one to lower blood pressure, one to make your blood thinner and one that makes you pee *)

So I do have a bunch of pills! Yea!







*) every time I hear this word, I’m reminded of this ridiculous but funny song by two musical maniacs:


----------



## Sean J

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And in this thread, people have long gone completely crazy.



The Woodwind update isn't delayed. Aaron kept reading and eventually said "I've created a monster..." and can't bring himself to look at his computer anymore. We destroyed Infinite. ∞ = ∞/0


----------



## doctoremmet

Sean J said:


> The Woodwind update isn't delayed. Aaron kept reading and eventually said "I've created a monster..." and can't bring himself to look at his computer anymore. We destroyed Infinite.


Not so negative there pal! We destroyed Infinite MOMENTS before it got self-aware and was planning to merge itself with Cyberdyne Systems SKYNET, so we managed to prevent the world’s destruction by a ten storeys high contrabassoon emitting an extremely destructive bass note!


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> Not so negative there pal! We destroyed Infinite MOMENTS before it got self-aware and was planning to merge itself with Cyberdyne Systems SKYNET, so we managed to prevent the world’s destruction by a ten storeys high contrabassoon emitting an extremely destructive bass note!


Turns out Aaron Venture was Kate Bush all along. #ExperimentIV


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Look! I’ve just fetched my new pills. One to lower heart rates, one to lower blood pressure, one to make your blood thinner and one that makes you pee *)
> 
> So I do have a bunch of pills! Yea!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *) every time I hear this word, I’m reminded of this ridiculous but funny song by two musical maniacs:




Damn dude! In all seriousness, good that you're taking care of yourself. And good that you love music, rather than rugby/boxing etc. As safe a hobby as you'll find considering.


----------



## shawnsingh

Wow!! Have you all checked Aaron's web site today?


----------



## Ricgus3

shawnsingh said:


> Wow!! Have you all checked Aaron's web site today?


Can't load his site. this is good.... (updating site?)

First time every i get positivly excited that a site cannot load


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Damn dude! In all seriousness, good that you're taking care of yourself. And good that you love music, rather than rugby/boxing etc. As safe a hobby as you'll find considering.


Absolutely. One of the reasons I’m able to spam you lot with many meaningless messages here, is that I’m pretty ill and can’t really do a lot anymore. Boxing is out of the question, but music is my salvation - so yes, very happy to be here and to still being able to enjoy my hobby!


----------



## shawnsingh

doctoremmet said:


> Absolutely. One of the reasons I’m able to spam you lot with many meaningless messages here, is that I’m pretty ill and can’t really do a lot anymore. Boxing is out of the question, but music is my salvation - so yes, very happy to be here and to still being able to enjoy my hobby!



I'd say doing music is a lot too, just as much as boxing...


----------



## shawnsingh

Hm. That seemed a LOT more profound and funny in my head before I said it.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Wow!! Have you all checked Aaron's web site today?



You got me! I saw nothing different and it loaded fine.


----------



## doctoremmet

shawnsingh said:


> Hm. That seemed a LOT more profound and funny in my head before I said it.


No worries. Both posts made me laugh


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> You got me! I saw nothing different and it loaded fine.


Pranked


----------



## I like music

Woah ...


----------



## decredis

I'm trying to remember when the pranks started relative to the updates dropping last time. Wasn't it months from the first full-on prank to the actual release?


----------



## decredis

Infinite Prank: no keyswitches, just bash a prank out and blow as hard as you like, and a fully realistic and believable deception will emerge, that could fool even the most jaded of fellow enthusiasts.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> I'm trying to remember when the pranks started relative to the updates dropping last time. Wasn't it months from the first full-on prank to the actual release?



Cimbasso will do that to a man...


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

DANIELE said:


> Here we go again!!
> 
> Well, this time is softer!!


pp softer? Or just p?


----------



## Ricgus3

doctoremmet said:


> Absolutely. One of the reasons I’m able to spam you lot with many meaningless messages here, is that I’m pretty ill and can’t really do a lot anymore. Boxing is out of the question, but music is my salvation - so yes, very happy to be here and to still being able to enjoy my hobby!


take care!


----------



## doctoremmet

Ricgus3 said:


> take care!


Thanks! As a matter of fact, hanging out here has given me a lot of piece of mind. And fun! So thank Y’ALL!


----------



## DANIELE

hbjdk said:


> pp softer? Or just p?



I would say p.


----------



## I like music

Seriously, I need to know if it was a prank or if the website DID go down for a bit?


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Seriously, I need to know if it was a prank or if the website DID go down for a bit?



It just updated. Woodwinds are live, so we should see Aaron on the forum pretty soon I guess.


----------



## Sean J

Also, I'm sorry to throw more nonsense on a thread that has lots of it. But anyone annoyed can't really comprehend how much ilikemusic needs to have every possible false alarm thrown at him that we can muster.

I'm sure the site just flickered. Nothing to see here folks.


----------



## Beans

Please, someone, make a new thread when updates are actually live.


----------



## I like music

Sean J said:


> Also, I'm sorry to throw more nonsense on a thread that has lots of it. But anyone annoyed can't really comprehend how much ilikemusic needs to have every possible false alarm thrown at him that we can muster.
> 
> I'm sure the site just flickered. Nothing to see here folks.



You killed me.


----------



## Ricgus3

I like music said:


> Seriously, I need to know if it was a prank or if the website DID go down for a bit?


It did! I was not joking. I read above that one should have a look at the website. I did and for me it was unreachable. But now it is Up again


----------



## Jamus

The suspense is killing me 😖

The woodwind legato needs work on double reeds. If you play a very low velocity the transition is very noticeably synthetic and resembles portamento on a sine wave. It's been bugging me a lot, especially in the oboes higher range.

(STILL LOVE IW!)


----------



## I like music

I'm trying to mock up the 2nd movement of Dvorak's 9th symphony. I'm just laying down the notes, but I haven't done any playbacks. Once 1.2 is here I'll try to post the mockup using it...


----------



## ansthenia

I wish Aaron would say something  lol I neeeed to knowwwwww. Where art thou, oh 1.2...


----------



## Beans

Gosh, this thread is long.

Some of the demos are quite impressive, but have there been brass mockups more along the lines of modern, bombastic film scores? Danny Elfman's Batman, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Back to the Future, Indiana Jones, Avengers?


----------



## I like music

Beans said:


> Gosh, this thread is long.
> 
> Some of the demos are quite impressive, but have there been brass mockups more along the lines of modern, bombastic film scores? Danny Elfman's Batman, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Back to the Future, Indiana Jones, Avengers?



I'm about to start mocking this up. It will take a long time, but for me this definitely classifies as bombastic!!!


----------



## DANIELE

Beans said:


> Gosh, this thread is long.
> 
> Some of the demos are quite impressive, but have there been brass mockups more along the lines of modern, bombastic film scores? Danny Elfman's Batman, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Back to the Future, Indiana Jones, Avengers?



Did you listened at my Star Wars inspired soundtrack? It could gives you an idea.


----------



## Beans

DANIELE said:


> Did you listened at my Star Wars inspired soundtrack? It could gives you an idea.



I'll go take a look! After 109 pages in this thread alone, I'm struggling.


----------



## DANIELE

Beans said:


> I'll go take a look! After 109 pages in this thread alone, I'm struggling.



Look for it, there is another track of mine with a more epic style if you want to listen to it. This is what I did but there is a page containing all the demos uploaded in this thread.

When the IW update will be out I'll update the SW track with that and I'll do some comparison between the old and the updated one.


----------



## PerryD

A work in progress, waiting for the woodwinds update. Real flugelhorn, SM horn at the intro. IB trumpets, 6 horns and contrabass tuba. SM strings. Love playing runs with those! I intend to extend the intro with woodwinds. I did a fairly deep cut at around 4k on the trumpets...just a little edgy for my taste without the EQ cut. Fun stuff.


----------



## El Buhdai

Beans said:


> Please, someone, make a new thread when updates are actually live.



Booo. Spitfire can't have a monopoly on sensationalist marketing AND ultra along threads! 


PerryD said:


> A work in progress, waiting for the woodwinds update. Real flugelhorn, SM horn at the intro. IB trumpets, 6 horns and contrabass tuba. SM strings. Love playing runs with those! I intend to extend the intro with woodwinds. I did a fairly deep cut at around 4k on the trumpets...just a little edgy for my taste without the EQ cut. Fun stuff.




This is an incredibly fun composition! Can't say I'm a fan of what you did to trumpets though. They sound like they're using mutes (and were EQ'd even further after being muted) because of the aggressiveness of that 4k cut. I can't really complain too much about it though because my music has the opposite issue. I haven't cut out _enough_ mids, and my Infinite Brass can often sound far too resonant. It's something I'm still working on.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Booo. Spitfire can't have a monopoly on sensationalist marketing AND ultra along threads!
> 
> 
> This is an incredibly fun composition! Can't say I'm a fan of what you did to trumpets though. They sound like they're using mutes (and were EQ'd even further after being muted) because of the aggressiveness of that 4k cut. I can't really complain too much about it though because my music has the opposite issue. I haven't cut out _enough_ mids, and my Infinite Brass can often sound far too resonant. It's something I'm still working on.



Really enjoyed this. Would love to see a screenshot of those strings runs btw, if you had the inclination/time to share.


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Really enjoyed this. Would love to see a screenshot of those strings runs btw, if you had the inclination/time to share.


 Thanks! I rendered those tracks to audio but those string "runs" were literally just finger glisses to the target notes!


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> Thanks! I rendered those tracks to audio but those string "runs" were literally just finger glisses to the target notes!



Right, so you had cc64 switched on, and the velocity also fairly high? Just asking because they sounded sharper than what I've done before, so I wanted to see if you'd done something different.

Thanks for the response.


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Right, so you had cc64 switched on, and the velocity also fairly high? Just asking because they sounded sharper than what I've done before, so I wanted to see if you'd done something different.
> 
> Thanks for the response.


 Just default breath controller. Mixed Violin & Viola ensembles set to about 80 for ensemble size. I don't want to derail this thread too much. If you PM me, I could send a midi example later this afternoon.


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> Just default breath controller. Mixed Violin & Viola ensembles set to about 80 for ensemble size. I don't want to derail this thread too much. If you PM me, I could send a midi example later this afternoon.



Thank you - will PM you.

Will keep me occupied until 1.5 and 1.2 Infinites arrive.


----------



## Jamus

I'm suffering from AVD - Aaron Venture Deficiency

Need strings. Need brass. Need woodwinds. 🤒


----------



## Smoy

@aaronventure we can't stand it anymore, please give us a hint 😁


----------



## decredis

Smoy said:


> @aaronventure we can't stand it anymore, please give us a hint 😁


I gave up standing it long ago. I can barely sit it anymore, and I'm eyeing up the Infinite Chaise Longue.


----------



## I like music

Would happily take another bassoon demo right now.


----------



## shawnsingh

Even the Infinite Bump has research behind it [1]


References

[1] One of many search results from google - "On the existence of infinite bump solutions of nonlinear Schrödinger equations with periodic potentials" (link)


----------



## Beans

It seems that there's an infinite number of things I'm waiting/hoping for. In the least, OT Phoenix Orchestra; an update for JADE; EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition; Cinematic Studio Woodwinds; Berlin Strings in SINE; Infinite series updates; Infinite Strings; more VSL releases (or sales).

I recently lost my job (don't worry, I immediately got another one that pays more but has nothing to do with scoring), but it means I'm purely a hobbyist now and probably shouldn't be buying more than one or two of the new releases.


----------



## Kent

Beans said:


> I recently lost my job (don't worry, I immediately got another one that pays more but has nothing to do with scoring), but it means I'm purely a hobbyist now and probably shouldn't be buying more than one or two of the new releases.


Sorry to hear that, but glad you're already back on your feet.

What was your previous job, then?


----------



## Beans

kmaster said:


> What was your previous job, then?



I've been with one company for more than two decades. I started off as a software product manager, but they began a video production service (filming, editing, scoring) that they offered to their customers. I did that for six years.

An example of what we'd do is go on-site to a university (though we worked with other industries, too) and run some interviews for video packages and put in a pretty simple music track behind it. Often as easy as a "piano or string pad intro that transitions into their fight song" sort of thing. Occasionally, using live recordings, but rarely so due to logistics. These were often contracted to encourage high-end alumni fundraising, shown at galas, things like that. The music was a pretty small part of the process, all things considered.

Because of COVID, we no longer can travel on-site, so the service offer has shut down and the team redistributed (every last person, fortunately). They asked me to come back to the Products team, after a brief scare that they were potentially overstaffed.


----------



## Kent

Beans said:


> I've been with one company for more than two decades. I started off as a software product manager, but they began a video production service (filming, editing, scoring) that they offered to their customers. I did that for six years.
> 
> An example of what we'd do is go on-site to a university (though we worked with other industries, too) and run some interviews for video packages and put in a pretty simple music track behind it. Often as easy as a "piano or string pad intro that transitions into their fight song" sort of thing. Occasionally, using live recordings, but rarely so due to logistics. These were often contracted to encourage high-end alumni fundraising, shown at galas, things like that. The music was a pretty small part of the process, all things considered.
> 
> Because of COVID, we no longer can travel on-site, so the service offer has shut down and the team redistributed (every last person, fortunately). They asked me to come back to the Products team, after a brief scare that they were potentially overstaffed.


Dang. Good to know they wanted to keep you around in some capacity—that kind of company->employee loyalty is rare these days.


----------



## Beans

kmaster said:


> Dang. Good to know they wanted to keep you around in some capacity—that kind of company->employee loyalty is rare these days.



It's comforting, but it also means it's hard to move up. They have a lot of "lifers" cemented in middle or lower-upper management.

Now, back to Infinite...... when?!


----------



## Sean J

Jamus said:


> I'm suffering from AVD - Aaron Venture Deficiency



AVD has bee known to cause:

Irritable behavior
Mood swings
Upset Stomach
Involuntary jerking movements
Gnawing on one's own arm
Gnawing on your neighbor's arm
Irregular heart behavior
Heart attack
Seizure
Impatience
Inferior Agility in Composition
Severe, acute and contagious PTSD caused by all other symptoms, leading to excessive forum posting


----------



## Terry93D

Sean J said:


> AVD has bee known to cause:
> 
> Irritable behavior
> Mood swings
> Upset Stomach
> Involuntary jerking movements
> Gnawing on one's own arm
> Gnawing on your neighbor's arm
> Irregular heart behavior
> Heart attack
> Seizure
> Impatience
> Inferior Agility in Composition
> Severe, acute and contagious PTSD caused by all other symptoms, leading to excessive forum posting



Waiting for the Infinite Strings causes Infinite Frustration.


----------



## decredis

decredis said:


> Yes, I'm getting that vibe. And didn't Aaron tease the possibility of cimbassi coming in the summer specifically? September often *feels* like summer, but semantically belongs to autumn.


I suppose the very latest that one could construe as summer would be the last day before the autumnal equinox, so... cimbassi by 21 September?


----------



## Batrawi

_Aaron Venture left..._


----------



## doctoremmet

Batrawi said:


> _Aaron Venture left..._


Wait... he did not just emigrate to Australia or Tasmania or anything did he? Don’t those guys have different seasons or something? I’ve read something like that once.

It was either something weird going on with their seasons or with their shower drains. Can’t remember exactly...


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> Wait... he did not just emigrate to Australia or Tasmania or anything did he? Don’t those guys have different seasons or something? I’ve read something like that once.
> 
> It was either something weird going on with their seasons or with their shower drains. Can’t remember exactly...


I do hope our intense and relentless er... enthusiasm wasn't so much that he felt he had to move across the world just to ensure that his predicted cimbassi timescale would remain true on a technicality. 

Partly because that would be a terrible thing to do to a person, but mostly because we're several months away from Australian summer.


----------



## doctoremmet

decredis said:


> mostly because we're several months away from Australian summer.


This being mostly my point. Then again according to one of the best selling books of the universe the entire planet is mostly harmless. So the summer in the northern hemisphere is mostly done. And my money has been mostly spent on other VIs, despite promises to @Batrawi to not spend a dime until IS1.0 releases...


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> This being mostly my point. Then again according to one of the best selling books of the universe the entire planet is mostly harmless. So the summer in the northern hemisphere is mostly done. And my money has been mostly spent on other VIs, despite promises to @Batrawi to not spend a dime until IS1.0 releases...



I'm trying so hard not to buy PLCKD, but I think I'll end up caving before the 24th.

Did Aaron ever mention what or when the Large Hall space would become available?


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> I'm trying so hard not to buy PLCKD, but I think I'll end up caving before the 24th.
> 
> Did Aaron ever mention what or when the Large Hall space would become available?


Yes sorry to have posted that PLCK thread hehe. Like I told Batrawi, we’re likely 6 paychecks away from IS, so just cave in... lol!


----------



## DANIELE

I fear that if we keep doing what we are doing soon we will see 2021 on the site and maybe even TBA.


----------



## I like music

A watched pot never boils.

Perhaps Mike Green should put a temporary hold on this thread.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> I fear that if we keep doing what we are doing soon we will see 2021 on the site and maybe even TBA.


Nah. Just having a laugh. Twenty pages ago I have sincerely mentioned I’d be willing to pre-order and pay now for IS - regardless of the release date Aaron eventually deems fit. But you’re right... I’ll quit making stupid jokes. Because that’s all they are. I am a very happy Infinite user and AV customer. No pressure, no rush.


----------



## Zanshin

I like music said:


> Perhaps Mike Green should put a temporary hold on this thread.



Or you could personally stop watching the thread if it bugs you so much? LOL. I'd argue that this thread and the enthusiasm in it is a good 'advertisement' for AV's products.


----------



## decredis

Yeah: although for us who are always waiting for the next piece of Infinity (for there will never not be such) there is an element of scab-picking to these no-news bumps and speculation, I suspect it's all to the good for all concerned if people who haven't yet been inducted into the Way of Infinity keep seeing the thread and sometimes maybe looking into the Infinite Series that the fuss is about.


----------



## Jamus

No sale will ever convince me to lose sight of the goal. I have my eyes on the AV prize!


----------



## I like music

Zanshin said:


> Or you could personally stop watching the thread if it bugs you so much? LOL. I'd argue that this thread and the enthusiasm in it is a good 'advertisement' for AV's products.



I'll never stop watching this thread, hehe. You may have missed the joke/absurdity in my comment.

To be fair, it was never that obvious.


----------



## Zanshin

I like music said:


> I'll never stop watching this thread, hehe. You may have missed the joke/absurdity in my comment.
> 
> To be fair, it was never that obvious.



Okay, I did miss it, but I am happy you will continue to contribute


----------



## Zanshin

On a more serious note, there's been several saxophone threads recently, I don't see IW mentioned a ton. The saxs, how are they? Good enough for some Taxi Driver inspired stuff?


----------



## I like music

Zanshin said:


> Okay, I did miss it, but I am happy you will continue to contribute


Unfortunately, I will keep torturing myself by checking this thread every 5 minutes. Perhaps I should ask Mike Green to ban me for a couple of weeks.

On the saxes, they are the only instrument of Infinite I haven't tried! I don't have much cause to write for sax and don't know how.

I'm sure someone posted a demo here a while back. Good luck finding it on this thread though!


----------



## vicontrolu

They are a still a bit synthetic. I asked about them some pages ago but there was no reply.
hope they sound better with the upgrade!


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

So, as a relative newbie excited about the playability of the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds packages, I have a boring question:

On NKS-compatible instruments, I can adjust sound parameters in real time with the knobs on my NI S88. Since the _Infinite _instruments aren't NKS compatible, I presume that one has to adjust stuff like growl / flutter / etc. using just the mod wheel instead (along with, perhaps key velocity? aftertouch?) Or via a followup track, using the computer mouse?


----------



## decredis

ThatAdamGuy said:


> On NKS-compatible instruments, I can adjust sound parameters in real time with the knobs on my NI S88. Since the _Infinite _instruments aren't NKS compatible, I presume that one has to adjust stuff like growl / flutter / etc. using just the mod wheel instead (along with, perhaps key velocity? aftertouch?) Or via a followup track, using the computer mouse?


You can midi-learn each of those parameters (eg by right-click on the GUI knob, select midi learn, then move the physical slider or knob or whatever) to any midi input control (sliders, knobs, mod wheel, breath controller, pedal), or input the midi by hand if you prefer.

EDIT: I think the main difference is that with NKS-compatible you can expect the parameters to be ready-assigned to the most convenient knobs on your device. With this you'll just have to assign them once via midi-learn then save that version of the instrument to use in future.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ThatAdamGuy said:


> So, as a relative newbie excited about the playability of the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds packages, I have a boring question:
> 
> On NKS-compatible instruments, I can adjust sound parameters in real time with the knobs on my NI S88. Since the _Infinite _instruments aren't NKS compatible, I presume that one has to adjust stuff like growl / flutter / etc. using just the mod wheel instead (along with, perhaps key velocity? aftertouch?) Or via a followup track, using the computer mouse?


Midi learn

I hate NKS to be perfectly honest! Which is ironic because I absolutely LOVE my s88 mk1.

I use the controller editor, use certain CCs in a pretty uniform manner, and that's how I'd use that controller.


----------



## doctoremmet

ThatAdamGuy said:


> So, as a relative newbie excited about the playability of the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds packages, I have a boring question:
> 
> On NKS-compatible instruments, I can adjust sound parameters in real time with the knobs on my NI S88. Since the _Infinite _instruments aren't NKS compatible, I presume that one has to adjust stuff like growl / flutter / etc. using just the mod wheel instead (along with, perhaps key velocity? aftertouch?) Or via a followup track, using the computer mouse?


Infinite instruments are so extremely playable out of the box, you just midi learn a thing or two to your liking but mostly just play the keyboard and modwheel. There’s not much more to it. No keyswitching at all. This is why there’s so much love for Aaron’s instruments really.


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

decredits, thanks! I had forgotten about MIDI-learn. Your explanation makes sense.

And heh, ProfoundSilenc... you're the first person I've heard that expressed hatred (vs. just apathy) for NKS. Really curious now!

And yep, doctoremmet, it's in large part the no-keyswitching thing that got me really excited. As a hobbyist, ain't got much time or patience for that :D


----------



## pierrevigneron

Aaron Venture, do you have any news for us? Another demo maybe ...


----------



## Knomes

Hi,

does anyone know how infinite instruments behave with the Roli seaboards?
Thanks for the answers!


----------



## doctoremmet

Knomes said:


> Hi,
> 
> does anyone know how infinite instruments behave with the Roli seaboards?
> Thanks for the answers!


Hi. I’ve just purchased a Roli Blocks Studiokit, with every intention to play me some IW1.2 and IB1.5. In the mean time I’ll test it with the 1.1 and 1.4 variants and I’ll let you know sometime next week!


----------



## Knomes

doctoremmet said:


> Hi. I’ve just purchased a Roli Blocks Studiokit, with every intention to play me some IW1.2 and IB1.5. In the mean time I’ll test it with the 1.1 and 1.4 variants and I’ll let you know sometime next week!



Thanks!


----------



## doctoremmet

Knomes said:


> Thanks!


----------



## doctoremmet

ROLI have an IOS app called Noise. It has sound packs that include SWAM double reeds, saxes and the string quartets. I have to say they sound gorgeous out of the box. These soundpacks can only be used in the Noise app “sandbox” however, and not in third party apps like Cubasis. Shame but I get it - they do sound good! 

Conclusion: I need modelled / heavily scripted sampled strings in my life. Aka Infinite Strings. Cool segway, yes?


----------



## Smoy

Hi all
@aaronventure my F5 key is becoming loose 😉


----------



## D Halgren

doctoremmet said:


> ROLI have an IOS app called Noise. It has sound packs that include SWAM double reeds, saxes and the string quartets. I have to say they sound gorgeous out of the box. These soundpacks can only be used in the Noise app “sandbox” however, and not in third party apps like Cubasis. Shame but I get it - they do sound good!
> 
> Conclusion: I need modelled / heavily scripted sampled strings in my life. Aka Infinite Strings. Cool segway, yes?


Hey Doc, what's your set up thinking for the Infinite series with the Roli? I am thinking about getting these libraries, and I have a Seaboard 49. Just curious.


----------



## doctoremmet

D Halgren said:


> Hey Doc, what's your set up thinking for the Infinite series with the Roli? I am thinking about getting these libraries, and I have a Seaboard 49. Just curious.


Haven’t got the faintest clue at the moment. Having too much fun with the NOISE Swam sax improvising the Pink Panther theme. Once I have the hang of it, I’ll turn my brain back on to figure out how to best use this for Infinite brass and winds. I’m pretty sure this will rock! Moving your fingers upwards (on the key) should trigger flutters, that’s how the Swam sounds have been programmed - which is awesome (a lot of synth patches have resonance going up in that direction, or for instance crossfade a pad sound when moving your fingers up). Wiggle should definitely be vibrato. And basically then you’re almost good to go I guess... One thing I do know, Roli Seaboard playing is a lot of fun and way more intuitive than I initially thought...

And I guess I’ll program my Lightblock to have a fader that moves like the modwheel (crescendo / decrescendo)? The Rise has three of those on the left panel right? I guess you only have to look at how they programmed those SWAM reeds to get a pretty good design idea that would work for Infinite as well...


----------



## D Halgren

doctoremmet said:


> Haven’t got the faintest clue at the moment. Having too much fun with the NOISE Swam sax improvising the Pink Panther theme. Once I have the hang of it, I’ll turn my brain back on to figure out how to best use this for Infinite brass and winds. I’m pretty sure this will rock! Moving your fingers upwards (on the key) should trigger flutters, that’s how the Swam sounds have been programmed - which is awesome (a lot of synth patches have resonance going up in that direction, or for instance crossfade a pad sound when moving your fingers up). Wiggle should definitely be vibrato. And basically then you’re almost good to go I guess... One thing I do know, Roli Seaboard playing is a lot of fun and way more intuitive than I initially thought...
> 
> And I guess I’ll program my Lightblock to have a fader that moves like the modwheel (crescendo / decrescendo)? The Rise has three of those on the left panel right? I guess you only have to look at how they programmed those SWAM reeds to get a pretty good design idea that would work for Infinite as well...


Yes, the Rise has 3 strips that are assignable, although, I think that I would prefer a real wheel. Keep me posted on your progress! I'll keep checking in over here! Off to do some more research on Infinite!


----------



## doctoremmet

D Halgren said:


> Yes, the Rise has 3 strips that are assignable, although, I think that I would prefer a real wheel. Keep me posted on your progress! I'll keep checking in over here! Off to do some more research on Infinite!


A real wheel is a viable option, but I sort of want to see if I can keep it completely withing the Roli Blocks “domain”, at least as a concept. A fader box combined with the Seaboard is another option. Then there’s my TEC2 and I may even get a Touché at some point. Infinite lends itself to be played!


----------



## Sean J

** SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT **

If the thread bugs you... AV's website has a newsletter one can get an email on for updates. I've been called a problem solver before.  That said...

Threaded replies like blog/news comment platforms often employ would be amazing on VI-Control. Only people who care about Roli would see Roli, etc. It wouldn't group all the flute questions freckled throughout the pages, but it would at least make a 112 page thread a 15 page thread keeping most flute talk within a few replies. Mike may not have interest in adding features, such things cost money, etc, etc. I'm just saying it would help long threads be more useful to get past all the crazy talk.


----------



## I like music

Sean J said:


> ** SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT **
> 
> If the thread bugs you... AV's website has a newsletter one can get an email on for updates. I've been called a problem solver before.  That said...
> 
> Threaded replies like blog/news comment platforms often employ would be amazing on VI-Control. Only people who care about Roli would see Roli, etc. It wouldn't group all the flute questions freckled throughout the pages, but it would at least make a 112 page thread a 15 page thread keeping most flute talk within a few replies. Mike may not have interest in adding features, such things cost money, etc, etc. I'm just saying it would help long threads be more useful to get past all the crazy talk.



A fair point. What's interesting about the thread is that it all began with 'why doesn't the Infinite Series get a lot of coverage?' which is the great irony of just this thread.

Other thing that's quite interesting about this thread is that it can be a jumbled mess, but its partly because people tend not to create many AV threads on VI control that often. Not sure what explains it.

Perhaps if we created an 'General Infinite' thread (perhaps this one?) and then product/instrument specific ones where you would get more relevant examples etc?

Hard to say, but lately I am hearing many more people saying they can't necessarily keep up with all the seguays of the thread. This might actually be having a negative impact on the products themselves, since people can't evaluate the things they want to evaluate quickly.

The nested solution could be super interesting, though I don't know if the forum would consider or support it? Interesting.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Perhaps if we created an 'General Infinite' thread (perhaps this one?) and then product/instrument specific ones where you would get more relevant examples etc?


That would make a lot of sense. An Infinite Speculation or General Discussion thread would be the perfect house for both the occasional silliness and the more speculative future developments discussion, while other threads could be more technical and mock-ups/demos etc.


----------



## doctoremmet

Sean J said:


> ** SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT **
> 
> If the thread bugs you... AV's website has a newsletter one can get an email on for updates. I've been called a problem solver before.  That said...
> 
> Threaded replies like blog/news comment platforms often employ would be amazing on VI-Control. Only people who care about Roli would see Roli, etc. It wouldn't group all the flute questions freckled throughout the pages, but it would at least make a 112 page thread a 15 page thread keeping most flute talk within a few replies. Mike may not have interest in adding features, such things cost money, etc, etc. I'm just saying it would help long threads be more useful to get past all the crazy talk.


Sorry for bothering y’all with Roli. I’ll create every niche Infinite thread one can think of, so I’ll be sure to be always on topic. Also, this is by no means a commercial and/or “official” AV thread, so by definition it can’t be commercially ineffective, because that does not seem to be the objective of this thread. Or it is, in which case I have been completely ignorant / misinformed


----------



## decredis

*raises hand* I'm certainly always interested in hearing about Roli, and it's super-on-topic for any predominantly cc-controlled instruments. I'm in a constant battle with my conscience over whether to splash out on a Seaboard.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Sorry for bothering y’all with Roli. I’ll create every niche Infinite thread one can think of, so I’ll be sure to be always on topic. Also, this is by no means a commercial and/or “official” AV thread, so by definition it can’t be commercially ineffective, because that does not seem to be the objective of this thread. Or it is, in which case I have been completely ignorant / misinformed



I thought it was perfectly relevant, fwiw.


----------



## Zanshin

doctoremmet said:


> Sorry for bothering y’all with Roli. I’ll create every niche Infinite thread one can think of, so I’ll be sure to be always on topic. Also, this is by no means a commercial and/or “official” AV thread, so by definition it can’t be commercially ineffective, because that does not seem to be the objective of this thread. Or it is, in which case I have been completely ignorant / misinformed



I think he was just using the Roli posts as an example. They are relevant to the thread IMO and like you said, this is a 'Sample Talk'. I'm definitely interested in the Roli experience in regards to IB and IW!


----------



## doctoremmet

decredis said:


> *raises hand* I'm certainly always interested in hearing about Roli, and it's super-on-topic for any predominantly cc-controlled instruments. I'm in a constant battle with my conscience over whether to splash out on a Seaboard.


As long as there is no dedicated Infinite Roli thread, I’ll answer here: I have been fascinated by Roli for years. I have only played the damn “block” 24 key Seaboard for a couple of hours and I’m stunned by its coolness. Also, the Swam stuff on IOS is awesome, so this will be the next money sink for me I guess. No doubt there will be more purchases, either a second block to double my keys or a “proper” Rise. Incredibly intuitive well thought out design. With a learning curve, but the first results are encouraging enough to make you want to master it.... TBC for sure.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> I thought it was perfectly relevant, fwiw.


Ok thanks. To be clear, I was being slightly cynical but there is a point. Remember, months ago I was building this mobile app to gather all Infinite demos in one place? My intention was to somehow get some “commercial” focus on the AV stuff... I got sidetracked but may as well try and pick up where I left it... 

Another thread may be a good idea, but how on earth will THAT one NOT derail, because people are people, and you lot (myself included) are some of the funniest / silliest girls and boys around here....


----------



## rnb_2

ROLI was my introduction to this whole world a few years ago, when I saw some demos of a Seaboard on Youtube. A couple years later, after experimenting with the Seaboard 5D app on a 3D Touch-enabled iPhone (a feature since retired), I got a real inkling of what MPE could do. I eventually got a Lightpad Block - because I have almost no musical training, the ability to only light up "legal" notes made it more attractive than the Seaboard - and it's a very impressive little device. It can actually do just about everything the Seaboard can, and a bunch of other things via the ROLI Dashboard software.

I think that the question of how ROLI hardware would work with AV libraries is down to setting them up to work with Kontakt - there are instructions here and here, but I haven't tried to implement them.


----------



## doctoremmet

rnb_2 said:


> ROLI was my introduction to this whole world a few years ago, when I saw some demos of a Seaboard on Youtube. A couple years later, after experimenting with the Seaboard 5D app on a 3D Touch-enabled iPhone (a feature since retired), I got a real inkling of what MPE could do. I eventually got a Lightpad Block - because I have almost no musical training, the ability to only light up "legal" notes made it more attractive than the Seaboard - and it's a very impressive little device. It can actually do just about everything the Seaboard can, and a bunch of other things via the ROLI Dashboard software.
> 
> I think that the question of how ROLI hardware would work with AV libraries is down to setting them up to work with Kontakt - there are instructions here and here, but I haven't tried to implement them.


Awesome! The Light Block is indeed a cool thing. You can use it for various purposes. Can’t wait to hook this up with Kontakt. Thanks for the links!


----------



## Markrs

doctoremmet said:


> Also, the Swam stuff on IOS is awesome


Audio modelling is on iOS? That would be amazing if it was but I can't see in the app store.


----------



## Markrs

Markrs said:


> Audio modelling is on iOS? That would be amazing if it was but I can't see in the app store.


I should have looked at the earlier posts, it is in the roli app


----------



## rnb_2

Markrs said:


> I should have looked at the earlier posts, it is in the roli app



Yes, the SWAM instruments are amazingly-low-cost add-ons to the NOISE app, but ROLI's license seems to be pretty specific to keeping them ONLY in NOISE. While other soundpacks can be used in Garageband for iOS, the SWAM packs can't. Also, most of the iOS soundpacks have migrated to the desktop via the ROLI Studio Player, but the SWAM packs (unsurprisingly) have not.


----------



## Sean J

Any type of controller is relevant to an Infinite discussion. But as Roli's don't apply to everyone, nesting has a value. Plus it would accordion a lot of humor posts to make thread crawling easier. We could always create an "Infinite Peanut Gallery" thread, but I doubt it would work.

We all gravitate to this thread cause the thrill of knowing Aaron will post update magic here. If he builds it, we will come.


----------



## Terry93D

Recently ordered a MIDI keyboard so that I can perform lines in directly. Looking forward to the Infinite Strings *even more*, if such a thing was possible, since it'll be designed for performance in a way that most strings libraries simply aren't.


----------



## duringtheafter

I am loving this thread! I've read every post across the 112 (and counting) pages. Have been holding off on WW and brass library purchases pending the new IW and IB... 

While I have a 88-key weighted MIDI controller, I'm a plunk-plunk-plunk player at best (saxophonist by training, pianist by fumbling). If I went with IW and/or IB, how difficult is it to craft a compelling sound more by drawing than by playing? While not ancient, I still often compose via notation and then import into Cubase and tweak (a whole lot!).

Anyone here using IW or IB in this way with success?


----------



## I like music

duringtheafter said:


> I am loving this thread! I've read every post across the 112 (and counting) pages. Have been holding off on WW and brass library purchases pending the new IW and IB...
> 
> While I have a 88-key weighted MIDI controller, I'm a plunk-plunk-plunk player at best (saxophonist by training, pianist by fumbling). If I went with IW and/or IB, how difficult is it to craft a compelling sound more by drawing than by playing? While not ancient, I still often compose via notation and then import into Cubase and tweak (a whole lot!).
> 
> Anyone here using IW or IB in this way with success?


Drawing with it is the easiest thing in the world. I never play stuff in and this library is the best for responsiveness to drawing.


----------



## Beans

I'd say it's no different than drawing with any other library. That is, you just gotta learn what it expects out of you for each type of sound.


----------



## vicontrolu

You'll end up drawing unless you are really good at piano and a pro mldwheel rider.

As cool as it is to not have keyswitches, sometimes its hard to nail a performance and you need to draw and redraw.

But hey, wit great power comes great responsibility..


----------



## doctoremmet

Markrs said:


> Audio modelling is on iOS? That would be amazing if it was but I can't see in the app store.


In October (according to their online development roadmap) they’ll release their instruments for IOS... as AU3


----------



## Markrs

doctoremmet said:


> In October (according to their online development roadmap) they’ll release their instruments for IOS... as AU3


 if they do it at the right price, that would be amazing to enable composing Orchestra music on an iPad


----------



## doctoremmet

Markrs said:


> if they do it at the right price, that would be amazing to enable composing Orchestra music on an iPad


Very very curious about pricing. The SWAM stuff in the sandboxed Roli environment is €10.99 per “bundle” (strings, woodwinds, saxes, no brass) and cannot be used as plugin in Cubasis. So basically one can “only” use them as audio / live. Which still is incredibly cool. So I’m guessing these will at least be $99?


----------



## doctoremmet

Anyway... this IS an off-topic. I’ll segway this back to Aaron Venture with the remark that I love the Infinite series, and my hope that I will play some gorgeous cembasso soon! Cheers.


----------



## Jamus

duringtheafter said:


> I am loving this thread! I've read every post across the 112 (and counting) pages. Have been holding off on WW and brass library purchases pending the new IW and IB...
> 
> While I have a 88-key weighted MIDI controller, I'm a plunk-plunk-plunk player at best (saxophonist by training, pianist by fumbling). If I went with IW and/or IB, how difficult is it to craft a compelling sound more by drawing than by playing? While not ancient, I still often compose via notation and then import into Cubase and tweak (a whole lot!).
> 
> Anyone here using IW or IB in this way with success?



I'm in a similar boat. I took a leap of faith on IW and I am just completely sold on all things Aaron Venture 😆 I will wait til IS and pick up IB with that.

I'm a pianist so IW is a miracle to me. I just need to get ahold of a breath controller or leap motion for the many available CC controls. Speaking of CC controls, I believe drawing in music with any Infinite library is as effective, if not even more so than other libraries simply because there are more controllable parameters. You can really go to town on note lengths/velocities and legato transition times/attacks. Not to mention vibrato depth/speed, flutter and growls.

It's up to you how much work you want to put into it but if you put in the time and effort the library gives back 👍 Of course the ultimate goal for me is to play it in live 😁


----------



## El Buhdai

Aaron must be working incredibly hard at the moment. I can't wait to see (and hear) what he's coming up with.

Or ideally he's taking a vacation from spoiling his Infinite Children with Infinite value for their purchase.  Though the last time I mentioned a vacation here he laughed and said something along the lines of "good one" or "that's funny".


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Aaron must be working incredibly hard at the moment. I can't wait to see (and hear) what he's coming up with.
> 
> Or ideally he's taking a vacation from spoiling his Infinite Children with Infinite value for their purchase.  Though the last time I mentioned a vacation here he laughed and said something along the lines of "good one" or "that's funny".



In the meantime Aaron Venture...


----------



## Terry93D

MIDI keyboard arrived a week ahead of schedule.

I am now a proud owner of Aaron's very latest product, the Infinite Impatience.


----------



## pierrevigneron

our patience will be rewarded, you know


----------



## I like music

My marriage is in trouble. I wrote my wife a romantic piece of music for our anniversary. She laughed at me. She said "lol what's this oboe and harp crap? No cimbassi? I'm out, you n00b."

She moved out and is staying with her mother. If only I could rewrite the oboe part with a cimbasso, it might save my marriage. Aaron, only you can help.


----------



## DANIELE

October 2nd is my birthday...just saying...


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> October 2nd is my birthday...just saying...



And mine is on the 16th 😶

If a certain update (or two!) comes out, VI-C would no longer be required to buy me new sample libraries for my birthday.

Save these people's wallets, Aaron!


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> And mine is on the 16th 😶
> 
> If a certain update (or two!) comes out, VI-C would no longer be required to buy me new sample libraries for my birthday.
> 
> Save these people's wallets, Aaron!



Ehi my brother birthday is on the 20th, my wife one is on the 7th and I'm married on the 13th...plenty of dates available here...


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> My marriage is in trouble. I wrote my wife a romantic piece of music for our anniversary. She laughed at me. She said "lol what's this oboe and harp crap? No cimbassi? I'm out, you n00b."
> 
> She moved out and is staying with her mother. If only I could rewrite the oboe part with a cimbasso, it might save my marriage. Aaron, only you can help.


Hahahaha. This made my day! ❤


----------



## andreagiuseppe

I bit the bullet and purchased both IB and IW. Overall I'm very happy with it. I've only been working with it for a day but so far i'm loving the flexibility of it. I've mocked up a cue from Atlantis by James Newton Howard to balance it within my template. My only issue is that in the more active sections it's taxing my cpu to where I'm getting stutters and hangs and I have to restart the engine in Kontakt. It could very well be user error though.


----------



## I like music

andreagiuseppe said:


> I bit the bullet and purchased both IB and IW. Overall I'm very happy with it. I've only been working with it for a day but so far i'm loving the flexibility of it. I've mocked up a cue from Atlantis by James Newton Howard to balance it within my template. My only issue is that in the more active sections it's taxing my cpu to where I'm getting stutters and hangs and I have to restart the engine in Kontakt. It could very well be user error though.


At work so can't listen to this yet but on the CPU issue... Have you got all 3 mics active? If you use the mix mic setting (to my ears they are excellent) it cuts CPU usage by 40 percent. Worth trying that as a starter and seeing if you a) like the sound and B) your CPU likes the load or not. 

There's an HQ setting as well. If you turn this off (still sounds great without) I THINK that'll help too.


----------



## DANIELE

andreagiuseppe said:


> I bit the bullet and purchased both IB and IW. Overall I'm very happy with it. I've only been working with it for a day but so far i'm loving the flexibility of it. I've mocked up a cue from Atlantis by James Newton Howard to balance it within my template. My only issue is that in the more active sections it's taxing my cpu to where I'm getting stutters and hangs and I have to restart the engine in Kontakt. It could very well be user error though.



What CPU do you have and what buffer size?


----------



## Damarus

andreagiuseppe said:


> I bit the bullet and purchased both IB and IW. Overall I'm very happy with it. I've only been working with it for a day but so far i'm loving the flexibility of it. I've mocked up a cue from Atlantis by James Newton Howard to balance it within my template. My only issue is that in the more active sections it's taxing my cpu to where I'm getting stutters and hangs and I have to restart the engine in Kontakt. It could very well be user error though.



Very well done! Thanks for Sharing!


----------



## PerryD

Someone needs to do a *quick* mockup of this with IB.


----------



## oceanic714

PerryD said:


> Someone needs to do a *quick* mockup of this with IB.



I've been waiting for someone to post brass band footage.

You'd be hard pressed to find more difficult music than what Black Dyke plays. The day we can successfully recreate that will truly be the point of no return


----------



## duringtheafter

oceanic714 said:


> I've been waiting for someone to post brass band footage.
> 
> You'd be hard pressed to find more difficult music than what Black Dyke plays. The day we can successfully recreate that will truly be the point of no return


Who's up for it? The publisher has a free image of the entire score in PDF:
https://www.gramercymusic.com/image/Metrob.pdf


----------



## doctoremmet

duringtheafter said:


> Who's up for it? The publisher has a free image of the entire score in PDF:
> https://www.gramercymusic.com/image/Metrob.pdf


Why let others do it? Pick it up yourself!


----------



## duringtheafter

doctoremmet said:


> Why let others do it? Pick it up yourself!


Don't have IB yet... :(


----------



## doctoremmet

duringtheafter said:


> Don't have IB yet... :(


Gotcha!


----------



## I like music

andreagiuseppe said:


> I bit the bullet and purchased both IB and IW. Overall I'm very happy with it. I've only been working with it for a day but so far i'm loving the flexibility of it. I've mocked up a cue from Atlantis by James Newton Howard to balance it within my template. My only issue is that in the more active sections it's taxing my cpu to where I'm getting stutters and hangs and I have to restart the engine in Kontakt. It could very well be user error though.



This sounds great! It sounds nicely gelled with the strings too - what are those?

I have a pretty terrible and old cpu from like 6 years ago (some dodgy i5 shit) and can run iw, ib and SM strings fairly well. Hmmm odd.


----------



## Woodie1972

The required instruments for creating a Brassband mock-up are not in IB, as you need 9 Bb flat cornets, one soprano cornet, 3 Eb flat Horns, 2 Bb baritones, and 2 Eb + Bb Basses. And no, this specific sound can't be reproduced with a symphonic brass library


----------



## I like music

Woodie1972 said:


> The required instruments are not in IB, as you need 9 Bb flat cornets, one soprano cornet, Eb flat Horns Bb baritones, and Eb + Bb Basses. And no, this specific sound can't be reproduced with a symphonic brass library


1.6😂


----------



## DANIELE

andreagiuseppe said:


> I bit the bullet and purchased both IB and IW. Overall I'm very happy with it. I've only been working with it for a day but so far i'm loving the flexibility of it. I've mocked up a cue from Atlantis by James Newton Howard to balance it within my template. My only issue is that in the more active sections it's taxing my cpu to where I'm getting stutters and hangs and I have to restart the engine in Kontakt. It could very well be user error though.



Very good!! I like it. Bravo!


----------



## gedlig

oceanic714 said:


> I've been waiting for someone to post brass band footage.
> 
> You'd be hard pressed to find more difficult music than what Black Dyke plays. The day we can successfully recreate that will truly be the point of no return


From what I've heard, IB is pretty close to being able to do such stuff. Maybe a couple of bigger updates (and additional instruments, if IB doesn't have some that are used in that piece) and this will be the no brainer industry leader. And to fully push the realism over the edge we could use an Infinite Coughs library.


----------



## I like music

gedlig said:


> From what I've heard, IB is pretty close to being able to do such stuff. Maybe a couple of bigger updates (and additional instruments, if IB doesn't have some that are used in that piece) and this will be the no brainer industry leader. And to fully push the realism over the edge we could use an Infinite Coughs library.


I hate it when I have to keyswitch my coughs.


----------



## El Buhdai

Infinite Coughs 😂

I would love to a an April Fools library from Aaron when his main orchestra is all released and in a good place. I'd probably be laughing through the entire walkthrough of an Infinite Coughs.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

gedlig said:


> From what I've heard, IB is pretty close to being able to do such stuff. Maybe a couple of bigger updates (and additional instruments, if IB doesn't have some that are used in that piece) and this will be the no brainer industry leader. And to fully push the realism over the edge we could use an Infinite Coughs library.


The coughs out there have been overused IMO, so I started recording my own.


----------



## DANIELE

Today is the last day of summer, fall is coming.


----------



## Sean J

DANIELE said:


> Today is the last day of summer, fall is coming.



In Samoa, it's already 8 PM (they are in the earliest time zone). They only have 2 seasons, but as the time will advance to the 22nd in only a few short hours, and as I believe we're safe in rounding numbers up to the highest when it's important to one's survival or happiness, we can safely say that Fall has already arrived.

Aaron, hand over the sounds!


----------



## doctoremmet

Sean J said:


> In Samoa, it's already 8 PM (they are in the earliest time zone). They only have 2 seasons, but as the time will advance to the 22nd in only a few short hours, and as I believe we're safe in rounding numbers up to the highest when it's important to one's survival or happiness, we can safely say that Fall has already arrived.
> 
> Aaron, hand over the sounds!


And please Aaron, always use Sean J’s timezone from now on when making roadmaps. Thanks.


----------



## I like music

I mailed Aaron about something different (how to make a 6-trombone section) and also happened to ask him how the updates were coming along.

He replied.


----------



## goalie composer

I like music said:


> I mailed Aaron about something different (how to make a 6-trombone section) and also happened to ask him how the updates were coming along.
> 
> He replied.


And his reply was?


----------



## I like music

goalie composer said:


> And his reply was?


I made the mistake of asking him if I could quote him on here 😂

Since he's gone silent on my follow up I thought I'd wait to see if he said OK. 

In summary though, update was good. Looks like we're pretty close and he said he was pleased with the concert flute and piccolo!


----------



## Beans

Pretty close, excellent.

So...... tomorrow? Early evening today, US Eastern time zone?


----------



## DANIELE

Beans said:


> Pretty close, excellent.
> 
> So...... tomorrow? Early evening today, US Eastern time zone?



Pretty close in ATZ (Aaron Time Zone) means you have to wait another month at least.


----------



## I like music

haha. i think he just likes making his instruments as good as possible. So yeah, it'll take as long as it takes. Personally I feel 4 weeks. Gut feel.


----------



## goalie composer

I like music said:


> I made the mistake of asking him if I could quote him on here 😂
> 
> Since he's gone silent on my follow up I thought I'd wait to see if he said OK.
> 
> In summary though, update was good. Looks like we're pretty close and he said he was pleased with the concert flute and piccolo!


Thanks for the insight!


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> haha. i think he just likes making his instruments as good as possible. So yeah, it'll take as long as it takes. Personally I feel 4 weeks. Gut feel.


Prior to Black Friday sounds good, as does the news that he's happy with the flute! I'm hoping IW1.2 will persuade me to save money by not buying VSL Synchronized WW.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> Prior to Black Friday sounds good, as does the news that he's happy with the flute! I'm hoping IW1.2 will persuade me to save money by not buying VSL Synchronized WW.



I swear, watching you is like watching Truman in The Truman Show.

What's he going to do? Which way will it ultimately go?


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> I swear, watching you is like watching Truman in The Truman Show.
> 
> What's he going to do? Which way will it ultimately go?


I hope @decredis will buy both IW and VSL Synchron-ized Woodwinds. Like him I am curious about that Austrian goodness and I would like for him to do an A/B test. I promise I will do one too called “XSample Woodwinds meet Infinite Woodwinds 1.2” video.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> I swear, watching you is like watching Truman in The Truman Show.
> 
> What's he going to do? Which way will it ultimately go?


If this is the fake world that's been created for my benefit, I dread to imagine what lies behind the curtain.


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> I hope @decredis will buy both IW and VSL Synchron-ized Woodwinds. Like him I am curious about that Austrian good ess and I would like for him to do an A/B test. I promise I will do one too called “XSample Woodwinds meet Infinite Woodwinds 1.2” video.


I already have IW, it's just a question of whether IW1.2's tone is such that I don't crave the VSL sound... flute is the woodwind I use most at the moment, and I'm using the old VI flute rather than IW flute for the most part, although other IW winds I'm pretty happy with (even the sax, which sound great to my naive ears). Basically I'd like to upgrade the VI flute to synchronized all the woodwinds, but not if IW1.2 has as good a sound but with all the Infinite Flexibility.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> If this is the fake world that's been created for my benefit, I dread to imagine what lies behind the curtain.



Play Pro


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> haha. i think he just likes making his instruments as good as possible. So yeah, it'll take as long as it takes. Personally I feel 4 weeks. Gut feel.




Yeah I was just kidding, I confirm what I always say, I prefer he takes what he needs to bring us a great product.

I also hope that we will see the strings before 2020 ends. I can't wait to almost finally complete my playable orchestra.

And by the way 4 weeks = 1 month.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Yeah I was just kidding, I confirm what I always say, I prefer he takes what he needs to bring us a great product.
> 
> I also hope that we will see the strings before 2020 ends. I can't wait to almost finally complete my playable orchestra.
> 
> And by the way 4 weeks = 1 month.


Haha. Very true. Also, weeks feel shorter psychologically!


----------



## PerryD

Sweet! We are only seconds away then! Sometime within the next 25,920,000 seconds.


----------



## aaronventure

Just doing the finishing touches on the alto and bass flutes. Everything else is 100% ready to go. The wait is almost over!


----------



## Zanshin

aaronventure said:


> Just doing the finishing touches on the alto and bass flutes. Everything else is 100% ready to go. The wait is almost over!



Awesome!


----------



## Sean J

decredis said:


> If this is the fake world that's been created for my benefit, I dread to imagine what lies behind the curtain.



Hmm, he looks bored. Let's shake things up in 2020.

I've been saying 2020 is in fact a great year. 1) IB 1.4 2) the StaffPad update, omg, and 3) something I can't tell you about which is awesome, just trust me that there's something awesome out there waiting and 4) cause 2021 can't get worse.......................................... right?


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Just doing the finishing touches on the alto and bass flutes. Everything else is 100% ready to go. The wait is almost over!



Soooooooooooooo....how many weeks? I'm just asking to make @I like music happy!


----------



## doctoremmet

Kremlin watchers unite! I may have found a hidden message:






Choice of vst for Trance


Tbh sample-wise you don't need anything else other than a couple of loop packs (Vengeance was all the rage back in the day) where you'll get your perc and loops (and kicks, although I'd use Sonic Academy's KICK 2 for that). Of course you can go for various other sample libraries and expand your...




vi-control.net


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Kremlin watchers unite! I may have found a hidden message:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choice of vst for Trance
> 
> 
> Tbh sample-wise you don't need anything else other than a couple of loop packs (Vengeance was all the rage back in the day) where you'll get your perc and loops (and kicks, although I'd use Sonic Academy's KICK 2 for that). Of course you can go for various other sample libraries and expand your...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



Read the first letter of every line: "Updates are being released tomorrow" is what it says ...


----------



## doctoremmet

...which will induce a state of TRANCE. It all makes so much sense...


----------



## doctoremmet

...which is MASSIVE news...


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> ...which is MASSIVE news...



You've officially lost it ...


----------



## duringtheafter

aaronventure said:


> Just doing the finishing touches on the alto and bass flutes. Everything else is 100% ready to go. The wait is almost over!


Amazing! Curious to know if you've been switching back and forth between Woodwinds and Brass updates as you go ("I can't listen to this bass flute again today; let's see if I can make some progress with that cimbasso...") or if it's been all woodwinds, all the time...?


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> You've officially lost it ...



No man, he lost it a long time ago. After all, he is from the Netherlands.

j/k j/k I actually like a lot about the country, especially one of their laws I often reference to say that our laws desperately need to improve. I won't detail the political specifics on this thread. Just saying they do things halfway sane sometimes. Halfway. I mean, they do have a few crazies... 

Flute magic is on it's way.
Cimbassos are on their way.
An Alphorn is coming someday.

And best of all, a string library that if done right, will make all others pointless.


----------



## doctoremmet

Sean J said:


> No man, he lost it a long time ago. After all, he is from the Netherlands.
> 
> j/k j/k I actually like a lot about the country, especially one of their laws I often reference to say that our laws desperately need to improve. I won't detail the political specifics on this thread. Just saying they do things halfway sane sometimes. Halfway. I mean, they do have a few crazies...
> 
> Flute magic is on it's way.
> Cimbassos are on their way.
> An Alphorn is coming someday.
> 
> And best of all, a string library that if done right, will make all others pointless.


Largely agree with brief but meaningful assessment of my home country.

Completely agree with assessment I’ve lost it.

And YES those winds, cembassi and strings are going to be good! Come to daddy!


----------



## Jamus

So the updates are free for current owners, but I'm wondering if the base price will rise as more instruments are added? I've not yet acquired brass and have not budgeted for an price increase 🤔 If this were the case I would not hold it against Aaron, as it seems reasonable to be paid for all the extra work at some point 👍


----------



## unclecheeks

Jamus said:


> So the updates are free for current owners, but I'm wondering if the base price will rise as more instruments are added? I've not yet acquired brass and have not budgeted for an price increase 🤔 If this were the case I would not hold it against Aaron, as it seems reasonable to be paid for all the extra work at some point 👍



I have the same question, as I’m getting ready to take the plunge on IB/IW. Can any early adopters chime in? Did the price go up with the updates?


----------



## stfciu

unclecheeks said:


> I have the same question, as I’m getting ready to take the plunge on IB/IW. Can any early adopters chime in? Did the price go up with the updates?


This will be hard for you...but no. But I really count on some discount during BF.


----------



## DivingInSpace

stfciu said:


> This will be hard for you...but no. But I really count on some discount during BF.


Don't expect more than 20%. Aaron told me that the edu discount was the best discount you could get.


----------



## unclecheeks

DivingInSpace said:


> Don't expect more than 20%. Aaron told me that the edu discount was the best discount you could get.



... does being an eternal "student of life" qualify me?


----------



## al_net77

Finally pulled the trigger. Hope to have enough time in the WE to deep dive in these...


----------



## Beans

Dang, every time this gets bumped, I'm hoping for more Infinite Strings news (especially, before the Synchron Strings Pro introductory price ends). Not even a release, just news!


----------



## El Buhdai

And I'm hoping for Infinite Woodwinds to be updated.. I'm craving that English Horn and new Bassoons. I haven't used the EH in months because IW's doesn't cut it tone-wise, and I don't feel like trying to work with Hollywood Orchestra's.


----------



## Woodie1972

El Buhdai said:


> And I'm hoping for Infinite Woodwinds to be updated.. I'm craving that English Horn and new Bassoons. I haven't used the EH in months because IW's doesn't cut it tone-wise, and I don't feel like trying to work with Hollywood Orchestra's.


Seriously? I think those woodwinds are some of the best out there. Maybe VSL might be even better, but not having to use a ton of keyswitches makes this one a winner for me. I have more trouble getting the Infinity brass to sound not too buzzy. EQ helps with that, but still it's not easy to avoid in loud passages


----------



## El Buhdai

Woodie1972 said:


> Seriously? I think those woodwinds are some of the best out there. Maybe VSL might be even better, but not having to use a ton of keyswitches makes this one a winner for me. I have more trouble getting the Infinity brass to sound not too buzzy. EQ helps with that, but still it's not easy to avoid in loud passages



I actually agree that it's a top-tier library in its category, but after using them for a year in their current state, and after Infinite Brass 1.4, some instruments in the library have definitely held up better than others to my ears. The flexibility and agility is always nice though, hence the reason I can't bring myself to reintroduce key switches for my woodwinds with the English Horn from Hollywood Orchestra.


----------



## shawnsingh

Woodie1972 said:


> I have more trouble getting the Infinity brass to sound not too buzzy.



What's worked for me:

simply avoid the highest CC levels or highest note velocities and reserve that bite and power when it can really shine. Basically means mentally shifting all volume levels to lower on the CC scale, and maybe increase your channel volume instead to compensate
Even when sustained bright bite is desired, it sounds better to draw a very slight arc over the note, and not stay static. that bright bite comes just slightly after the initial attack (maybe sometimes with a more imediate attack) and then it should slightly fade back. experimenting with how quickly it fades back to non-bite can get different character of sound.
slight pitch bend and different CC curves for each instrument help a lot too. In real life, the chorusy effect of multiple players being slightly out of tune seems to smooth out that bite.

I've been making progress on my brass fanfare piece, when it's ready to share, I can try to point to some places where the right CC curves made a world of difference!


----------



## Kent

shawnsingh said:


> What's worked for me:
> 
> simply avoid the highest CC levels or highest note velocities and reserve that bite and power when it can really shine. Basically means mentally shifting all volume levels to lower on the CC scale, and maybe increase your channel volume instead to compensate
> Even when sustained bright bite is desired, it sounds better to draw a very slight arc over the note, and not stay static. that bright bite comes just slightly after the initial attack (maybe sometimes with a more imediate attack) and then it should slightly fade back. experimenting with how quickly it fades back to non-bite can get different character of sound.
> slight pitch bend and different CC curves for each instrument help a lot too. In real life, the chorusy effect of multiple players being slightly out of tune seems to smooth out that bite.
> 
> I've been making progress on my brass fanfare piece, when it's ready to share, I can try to point to some places where the right CC curves made a world of difference!


Your current piece is the gold-standard for what IB can sound like, as far as I am concerned. Looking forward to hearing your next one! (edit: and seeing how you make it work for you!)


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> What's worked for me:
> 
> simply avoid the highest CC levels or highest note velocities and reserve that bite and power when it can really shine. Basically means mentally shifting all volume levels to lower on the CC scale, and maybe increase your channel volume instead to compensate
> Even when sustained bright bite is desired, it sounds better to draw a very slight arc over the note, and not stay static. that bright bite comes just slightly after the initial attack (maybe sometimes with a more imediate attack) and then it should slightly fade back. experimenting with how quickly it fades back to non-bite can get different character of sound.
> slight pitch bend and different CC curves for each instrument help a lot too. In real life, the chorusy effect of multiple players being slightly out of tune seems to smooth out that bite.
> 
> I've been making progress on my brass fanfare piece, when it's ready to share, I can try to point to some places where the right CC curves made a world of difference!



Yep, these tips are exactly what I've found to help these instruments sound their best. Infinite doesn't shape its notes the way most libraries do. That responsibility falls on the user.

I can't emphasize the first tip enough. Infinite Brass gets very bitey at its max dynamics, especially its trumpets. You have tons and tons of headroom with bite so you basically never have to use CC1 at its max to get bite like you would with some other brass libraries. 75 - 85% is all that's needed to get the max bite of most other libraries. 

As for the second tip, that's just as important. Like I said, Infinite allows you to shape your own notes and phrases, so for Infinite Brass you should always have a slight fade-in on aggressive notes. Once the fade-in ends, you should shape a hump, and then a gradual decay towards the end of the note. When you listen to aggressive brass passages recorded with real players, you can hear this in action, and you should try to emulate that with this library because it won't do it for you.


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> I can't emphasize the first tip enough. Infinite Brass gets very bitey at its max dynamics, especially its trumpets. You have tons and tons of headroom with bite so you basically never have to use CC1 at its max to get bite like you would with some other brass libraries. 75 - 85% is all that's needed to get the max bite of most other libraries.



I actually find this to be the case with the bassoon in IW as well. I find treating about 100 on MOD wheel as the peak dynamic for most scenarios works like a charm, and to obviously always play as if you're sculpting portatos and marcatos. Might not be such a useful tips for anyone whose MIDI controller doesn't display CC values 😅


----------



## ansthenia

Aaron I was just wondering, sorry if you've already said, but the planned concert hall you want to eventually add as a new space, will it be the biggest one yet or is it smaller than the Mozarteum? Thanks!


----------



## I like music

ansthenia said:


> Aaron I was just wondering, sorry if you've already said, but the planned concert hall you want to eventually add as a new space, will it be the biggest one yet or is it smaller than the Mozarteum? Thanks!


Bigger I recall him saying


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> I actually find this to be the case with the bassoon in IW as well. I find treating about 100 on MOD wheel as the peak dynamic for most scenarios works like a charm, and to obviously always play as if you're sculpting portatos and marcatos. Might not be such a useful tips for anyone whose MIDI controller doesn't display CC values 😅


I think Aaron singled our the bassoon and said that the the top 25 percent was the overblow layer and to avoid it unless you knew why you were going there


----------



## I like music

This will be the week. I can feel it in my bones.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> This will be the week. I can feel it in my bones.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


>



Haha, happy monday morning.

*SIGH*


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Haha, happy monday morning.
> 
> *SIGH*


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> Haha, happy monday morning.
> 
> *SIGH*


This is the week as in... the Holy Infinity Trinity drops?!


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> This will be the week. I can feel it in my bones.


Hold on, are you saying we've got it all wrong and the next release is actually inexplicably the Infinite Percussion "ethnic percussion" expansion?


----------



## Smoy

*F5 intensifies*


----------



## I like music

Smoy said:


> *F5 intensifies*



Need more round robins on that F5.


----------



## Zanshin

hbjdk said:


> I love this forum!  So many people with a good sense of humour!



Sense of humor...


----------



## ansthenia

Zanshin said:


> Sense of humor...


----------



## John Longley

Dorks.


----------



## I like music

It is here...






... that I come to bump the thread from time to time, and annoy people.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> It is here...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... that I come to bump the thread from time to time, and annoy people.



Gah, I knew it was going to be an infinite bump, but I still fell for it...


----------



## Batrawi

*Here it is at last*
Youtube video uploaded where Aaron man is showing off Infinity wars


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> *Here it is at last*
> Youtube video uploaded where Aaron man is showing off Infinity wars



Haha Aaron Man!


----------



## yanwenli

The infinite wait is finally over! The release we've all been waiting for:






Infinite Chord Progression





Morricone and the Infinite Chord Progression.


I mean, the dude's a genius. So maybe thats the end of the conversation right there. :whistling: But seriously. Something that has plagued me for years has been understanding how pieces of music like the one in the video below come together, composition-wise. To me, one of the cornerstones of...




vi-control.net


----------



## DANIELE

OMG, it is like opening the Pandora's box!


----------



## al_net77

I don't want to create illusions, I only need to put a question... 

@aaronventure 
earlier in the thread you replied that to experiment with MIR you have to disable convolution : _"If you want to try MIR, your best bet would be to disable the built-in convolution and use it that way."_
Could you please elaborate on this? Do you mean internal Infinite's convolution(s)? If so, is there a suggest way (I find many convolutions and sends in the wrench).

Thanks


----------



## DANIELE

al_net77 said:


> I don't want to create illusions, I only need to put a question...
> 
> @aaronventure
> earlier in the thread you replied that to experiment with MIR you have to disable convolution : _"If you want to try MIR, your best bet would be to disable the built-in convolution and use it that way."_
> Could you please elaborate on this? Do you mean internal Infinite's convolution(s)? If so, is there a suggest way (I find many convolutions and sends in the wrench).
> 
> Thanks



I think he meant that you have to use the instrument as dry as possible (aka disable ambience mics). Another experienced user many posts ago wrote a guide on how to get a completely dry signal.

I use a combination of internal convolution and external one and I find it very good for my ears.


----------



## al_net77

DANIELE said:


> I think he meant that you have to use the instrument as dry as possible (aka disable ambience mics). Another experienced user many posts ago wrote a guide on how to get a completely dry signal.
> 
> I use a combination of internal convolution and external one and I find it very good for my ears.



Good to know. Do you have a reference to search for that guide? The thread begins to be a little long...


----------



## DANIELE

al_net77 said:


> Good to know. Do you have a reference to search for that guide? The thread begins to be a little long...



Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the user. Is a pretty known user, he does also youtube videos and reviews if I remember well.
I don't remember because I don't want to use a completely dry signal due to a possible loss of an important part of the sound.
I actually don't remember if he wrote in this thread on in another thread about specific infinite library. Maybe @doctoremmet could help you, I remember he is a fan of this other user.

I'm very sorry, if something comes to my mind I will let you know as soon as possible.


----------



## decredis

Just off the top of my head, the driest I can think to get it within the GUI is Studio room, Soloist position, and Close mic only? I'm sure someone may have a more thorough solution. I've no idea about messing under the hood in Kontakt tbh.


----------



## Zanshin

DANIELE said:


> Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the user. Is a pretty known user, he does also youtube videos and reviews if I remember well.
> I don't remember because I don't want to use a completely dry signal due to a possible loss of an important part of the sound.
> I actually don't remember if he wrote in this thread on in another thread about specific infinite library. Maybe @doctoremmet could help you, I remember he is a fan of this other user.
> 
> I'm very sorry, if something comes to my mind I will let you know as soon as possible.



Cory Pelizzari I assume?









Cory Pelizzari


I share handy tips for independent composers as well as host videos about the music I make.




www.youtube.com





Has he said what his set up is for using 7th Heaven for example? I can't remember.

Edit:


----------



## DANIELE

Zanshin said:


> Cory Pelizzari I assume?



YES!! There you are, it's him!


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> YES!! There you are, it's him!


And yes, I AM a fan of @Cory Pelizzari. He has been ill these past weeks, so I wish him well from this place ❤


----------



## Batrawi

This is how I do it myself as I posted earlier. This is not bone-dry (which I wouldn't recommend) but if you want that I think you just disable the early and late reflections.




Batrawi said:


> The way I like to use IB generally, is by making it studio-dry sounding (not bone-dry), then apply my own reverb. The way I do that is by 1)selecting the studio reverb 2)select mic mix#1 then 3)go into the effects and turn the "early" reflection all the way up, and the "late" all the way down. This overall make the instruments sound full and warm in a dry environment which can be ready to use as is in things like pop/jazz, but can also respond well to your own algo reverb if you to add deapth & tail for cinematic or orchestral sound


----------



## Beans

VI-Control has been moderately quiet today. Is this the calm before the storm?


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## John Longley

Sorry to interrupt this awkward lull, but can anybody fill me in on what we do know about Infinite Strings? Not the release date *please be today, or maybe tomorrow at worst*, but the details of the actual product.


----------



## I like music

John Longley said:


> Sorry to interrupt this awkward lull, but can anybody fill me in on what we do know about Infinite Strings? Not the release date *please be today, or maybe tomorrow at worst*, but the details of the actual product.



Seems quite ambitious. Trying to think about what I can remember, but there was an implication (or perhaps an interpretation by forum members) that the modules would be made up of individual strings, and that Aaron had sampled tons of strings to create the ensembles. I'm sure someone will remember where in this massive thread that discussion happened. I do believe it'll have both ensembles (of different sizes) and solo strings, too.


----------



## John Longley

I like music said:


> Seems quite ambitious. Trying to think about what I can remember, but there was an implication (or perhaps an interpretation by forum members) that the modules would be made up of individual strings, and that Aaron had sampled tons of strings to create the ensembles. I'm sure someone will remember where in this massive thread that discussion happened. I do believe it'll have both ensembles (of different sizes) and solo strings, too.


Ughhh, that sounds fantastic. If that's true, or mostly true, I will have to buy the entire bundle on release. Have been holding off as there are so many things pending (LASS 3 etc).


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> I think he meant that you have to use the instrument as dry as possible (aka disable ambience mics). Another experienced user many posts ago wrote a guide on how to get a completely dry signal.
> 
> I use a combination of internal convolution and external one and I find it very good for my ears.



Cori Pelizzari also posted his own custom dry patches.


----------



## John R Wilson

John Longley said:


> Ughhh, that sounds fantastic. If that's true, or mostly true, I will have to buy the entire bundle on release. Have been holding off as there are so many things pending (LASS 3 etc).



I'm awaiting for the strings before buying the infinite series. If Aaron gets the strings right and the upcoming woodwind update is good then ill probably end up buying the whole series. Does anyone know if there is any videos online showing the playability of the library, just someone playing it on a keyboard. I know there is a video with Aaron briefly playing some slower lines demonstrating Infinite Brass but it would be good to see someone playing Infinite Brass at a variety of speeds and playing.


----------



## El Buhdai

John R Wilson said:


> Does anyone know if there is any videos online showing the playability of the library, just someone playing it on a keyboard. I know there is a video with Aaron briefly playing some slower lines demonstrating Infinite Brass but it would be good to see someone playing Infinite Brass at a variety of speeds and playing.



Check out @Cory Pelizzari 's video on YouTube, or watch the other review videos out there.

EDIT: Hey, second time plugging Cory's contributions to the Infinite community in the same day! Nice.


----------



## DANIELE

John Longley said:


> Ughhh, that sounds fantastic. If that's true, or mostly true, I will have to buy the entire bundle on release. Have been holding off as there are so many things pending (LASS 3 etc).


----------



## Bluemount Score

I'm a little confused when it comes to short notes... how do you play them? Simply with high velocity and quick key releases? How well does this work, also when trying to achieve different short note lengths (sfz, staccato, staccatissimo..)?


----------



## I like music

Bluemount Score said:


> I'm a little confused when it comes to short notes... how do you play them? Simply with high velocity and quick releases? How well does this work, also fpr different short note lengths (sfz, staccato, staccatissimo..)?



Try both and you'll see a big difference! I often just use a relatively short note especially when buried in a mix and it is find. I think (I seem to recall but not sure) works better with brass this way, than woods.

However, even for short notes, if you jack up the dynamics (say your velocity is 100, and dynamics 10) you'll get a different sound compared with velocity 100 and dyamics 50. Assuming this is to do with how quickly the release goes from velocity and curve down to meet the dynamics value.

One thing to keep in mind is that very small changes to the _length_ of the short note will have a really noticeable effect. So keep those slightly randomised! 

I still have to post my Adventures on Earth MIDI here. Once I get around to it you'll see different places where I've done it totally differently e.g. on some quite short notes, I still drew a dynamic curve to replicate what I imagine would be the breathe of the player finally getting through the valves etc of the brass instrument.


----------



## Bluemount Score

I like music said:


> Try both and you'll see a big difference! I often just use a relatively short note especially when buried in a mix and it is find. I think (I seem to recall but not sure) works better with brass this way, than woods.
> 
> However, even for short notes, if you jack up the dynamics (say your velocity is 100, and dynamics 10) you'll get a different sound compared with velocity 100 and dyamics 50. Assuming this is to do with how quickly the release goes from velocity and curve down to meet the dynamics value.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that very small changes to the _length_ of the short note will have a really noticeable effect. So keep those slightly randomised!
> 
> I still have to post my Adventures on Earth MIDI here. Once I get around to it you'll see different places where I've done it totally differently e.g. on some quite short notes, I still drew a dynamic curve to replicate what I imagine would be the breathe of the player finally getting through the valves etc of the brass instrument.


Thank you. I just got a little more into this series and am fascinated by the flexibility (keyswitches be gone!) of the intruments which from what I can see is far beyond most other libraries of that kind... but it also leaves some questions...

Do all instruments have true legato? How is the consistency and playability across them?


----------



## I like music

Bluemount Score said:


> Thank you. I just got a little more into this series and am fascinated by the flexibility (keyswitches be gone!) of the intruments which from what I can see is far beyond most other libraries of that kind... but it also leaves some questions...
> 
> Do all instruments have true legato? How is the consistency and playability across them?



1) Consistency. Most consistent library I own. SM strings are consistent too, and so was the AM stuff I owned, so that sort of level.
2) Playability. Very playable, though I'm not a player. Got a breath controller or something in addition to a mod-wheel? Really helps if you're a play-it-in person.
3) I believe the legato might be modelled. Lots of maths involved as I understand it.

Feel free to post any MIDIs up here. I'm sure people will render soemthing for you!


----------



## Bluemount Score

I like music said:


> 1) Consistency. Most consistent library I own. SM strings are consistent too, and so was the AM stuff I owned, so that sort of level.
> 2) Playability. Very playable, though I'm not a player. Got a breath controller or something in addition to a mod-wheel? Really helps if you're a play-it-in person.
> 3) I believe the legato might be modelled. Lots of maths involved as I understand it.
> 
> Feel free to post any MIDIs up here. I'm sure people will render soemthing for you!


Thanks again. I heard there's a string library in the making too.
If the legato is modelled (which sooner or later might be the future of sampling anyways, I think...) this might explain how the patches are so unbelievably small. Sounded very good from what I heard so far. And I'm a CSS / CSB user, I have high legato sample standards


----------



## DANIELE

Bluemount Score said:


> I'm a little confused when it comes to short notes... how do you play them? Simply with high velocity and quick key releases? How well does this work, also when trying to achieve different short note lengths (sfz, staccato, staccatissimo..)?



The note will go on as long as you press the key, so short press = short note, long press = long note.

The other controls are useful to shape the note (attack etc...).


----------



## doctoremmet

Bluemount Score said:


> Thanks again. I heard there's a string library in the making too.
> If the legato is modelled (which sooner or later might be the future of sampling anyways, I think...) this might explain how the patches are so unbelievably small. Sounded very good so from what I heard so far. And I'm a CSS / CSB user, I have high legato sample standards


You’ll be pleasantly surprised with the agility / playability / agility of the Infinite libraries - meaning: no latency


----------



## DANIELE

Bluemount Score said:


> Thanks again. I heard there's a string library in the making too.
> If the legato is modelled (which sooner or later might be the future of sampling anyways, I think...) this might explain how the patches are so unbelievably small. Sounded very good so from what I heard so far. And I'm a CSS / CSB user, I have high legato sample standards



Don't worry, Aaron is very precise about the sounding results of his libraries, IB had a lot of improvements from 1.0 to the actual 1.4 and, as Aaron said, there are more improvements to come in the next update.


----------



## Bluemount Score

DANIELE said:


> The note will go on as long as you press the key, so short press = short note, long press = long note.
> 
> The other controls are useful to shape the note (attack etc...).


If that's how it works and it works just as good or even better than the typical keyswitch-articulation-stuff I own, I'm very impressed by the programming and might "loose" some money on these libraries


----------



## Bluemount Score

doctoremmet said:


> You’ll be pleasantly surprised with the agility / playability / agility of the Infinite libraries - meaning: no latency


I've been using Cinematic Studio stuff for years now (and hopefully will use it for many more years!), it will probably be more difficult for me to get rid of the latency after all


----------



## DANIELE

Bluemount Score said:


> If that's how it works and it works just as good or even better than the typical keyswitch-articulation-stuff I own, I'm very impressed by the programming and might "loose" some money on these libraries



It works a lot better of the articulation system. With short articulation you have only a predefined length, with these libraries you have virtually infinite lenghts possible.

Every cent I spent on these libraries worth it, every single one, if you like how they sound you have to buy them, you will throw away everything else (at least this is what I did).


----------



## Bluemount Score

DANIELE said:


> you will throw away everything else (at least this is what I did).


Perhaps, this is rather what I'm afraid of and keeps me away from buying them, lol


----------



## I like music

Bluemount Score said:


> And I'm a CSS / CSB user, I have high legato sample standards


Pretty much ruined every other library for me with the quality of their legatos and the consistency!


----------



## Bluemount Score

I like music said:


> Pretty much ruined every other library for me with the quality of their legatos and the consistency!


I just realized there is a discussion going on when the strings (in short: ISS lol) are getting released and everyone hopes it is... well, soon, perhaps this week. Just as with CSW. Yet another thing to look forward to and be frustrated by, week after week haha

I might wait for black friday though, maybe we get a nice offer...


----------



## I like music

Bluemount Score said:


> I just realized there is a discussion going on when the strings (in short: ISS lol) are getting released and everyone hopes it is... well, soon, perhaps this week. Just as with CSW. Yet another thing to look forward to and be frustrated by, week after week haha



Haha. Personally, my guess is Infinite Strings are a long way away. Though on his website it still says 2020, so one can hope!!!


----------



## BradHoyt

Any idea if the infinite series ever goes on sale at all?


----------



## doctoremmet

BradHoyt said:


> Any idea if the infinite series ever goes on sale at all?


On sale: no. On intro sale: yes, there have been bundle sales with some discounts. But no crazy sales, which I quite like really. A bit like Serum and Omnisphere. You know you’re getting your money’s worth...


----------



## Bluemount Score

doctoremmet said:


> On sale: no. On intro sale: yes, there have been bundle sales with some discounts. But no crazy sales, which I quite like really. A bit like Serum and Omnisphere. You know you’re getting your money’s worth...


_8DIO left the chat_


----------



## doctoremmet

Bluemount Score said:


> _8DIO left the chat_


Hahaha. Gotta say I do love a lot of 8dio stuff. Their Century Brass is revered around here


----------



## Bluemount Score

doctoremmet said:


> Hahaha. Gotta say I do love a lot of 8dio stuff. Their Century Brass is revered around here


yes, just to be clear, they make good libraries, was just about the sale politics


----------



## doctoremmet

Bluemount Score said:


> yes, just to be clear, they make good libraries, was just about the sale politics


I totally got the joke, it was a good one!


----------



## Beans

I like music said:


> I still have to post my Adventures on Earth MIDI here. Once I get around to it you'll see different places where I've done it totally differently e.g. on some quite short notes, I still drew a dynamic curve to replicate what I imagine would be the breathe of the player finally getting through the valves etc of the brass instrument.



How do I subscribe? Where do I throw my money?


----------



## I like music

Beans said:


> How do I subscribe? Where do I throw my money?



Haha, to be honest it was a ton of trial an error. Will post it here later. A friend of mine found about 20 errors (where I had copied the wrong chords etc from the score) so I need to fix that first. Once that's done, I'll make sure to tag you once the MIDI's posted.

Did you mean this post for me? Hah, my mockups are not nearly good enough for anyone to pay for them, especially when the music's JW's. I mean it is just MIDI data with a few lazy tweaks here and there. Honestly, it really was just trial and error and then move on.


----------



## amorphosynthesis

Bluemount Score said:


> _8DIO left the chat_


_Eastwest_ and _Waves_ joined the chat


----------



## ansthenia

Batrawi said:


> This is how I do it myself as I posted earlier. This is not bone-dry (which I wouldn't recommend) but if you want that I think you just disable the early and late reflections.


How do you turn off late reverb? I'm a kontakt newbie and can't figure out where it is after clicking the wrench.


----------



## BradHoyt

doctoremmet said:


> On sale: no. On intro sale: yes, there have been bundle sales with some discounts. But no crazy sales, which I quite like really. A bit like Serum and Omnisphere. You know you’re getting your money’s worth...


This is what I gathered, and respect this approach. I know that he comes out with significant updates which enhances the value. I suspect I'll be getting the bundle at some point. The playability factor is really appealing to me. The other libraries that I'm considering are Audiobro's Modern Scoring series. I have Genesis, and love the divisi features... Ah, future plans...


----------



## doctoremmet

BradHoyt said:


> This is what I gathered, and respect this approach. I know that he comes out with significant updates which enhances the value. I suspect I'll be getting the bundle at some point. The playability factor is really appealing to me. The other libraries that I'm considering are Audiobro's Modern Scoring series. I have Genesis, and love the divisi features... Ah, future plans...


This. It feels almost like a subscription. The updates are no mere bug fixes but real valuable expansions and improvements are on the table. That really feels good, as a customer and user.


----------



## BradHoyt

doctoremmet said:


> This. It feels almost like a subscription. The updates are no mere bug fixes but real valuable expansions and improvements are on the table. That really feels good, as a customer and user.


Absolutely. The only other company I know that has done this to the same degree is VirHarmonic. I got the Bohemian Violin and Cello when they were first released, and free updates included entirely new and improved instruments. Looking forward to when the Bohemian Viola is released...


----------



## doctoremmet

BradHoyt said:


> Absolutely. The only other company I know that has done this to the same degree is VirHarmonic. I got the Bohemian Violin and Cello when they were first released, and free updates included entirely new and improved instruments. Looking forward to when the Bohemian Viola is released...


Yes, they seem like a great developer too - I like how they share their roadmap and progress of development. Really cool sounding instruments too. I think they’re on one of your albums I have on Bandcamp. They sound good!


----------



## Smoy

*F5 intensifies more*


----------



## El Buhdai

Smoy said:


> *F5 intensifies more*



One day Aaron's website is gonna get unintentionally Ddos'd by the sheer enthusiasm of his users.


----------



## Jamus

On the subject of modelled legato, at this point, I am completely willing to sacrifice a small amount of realism for practicality. For sure there are libraries out there that blend the legato transitions well and some that don't (I'm looking at you Hollywood Orchestra 😶) but in the end it's just always a bad thing to have to scrap an idea because the library simply can't do it.

The same goes for natural attack vs envelope and so on. I mean once you slapped enough reverb and orchestration around something I don't think anyone is going to complain 😂 I suppose as far as an isolated flute or cello line goes it might become a bit more troublesome but I say bring it on.


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> On the subject of modelled legato, at this point, I am completely willing to sacrifice a small amount of realism for practicality. For sure there are libraries out there that blend the legato transitions well and some that don't (I'm looking at you Hollywood Orchestra 😶) but in the end it's just always a bad thing to have to scrap an idea because the library simply can't do it.
> 
> The same goes for natural attack vs envelope and so on. I mean once you slapped enough reverb and orchestration around something I don't think anyone is going to complain 😂 I suppose as far as an isolated flute or cello line goes it might become a bit more troublesome but I say bring it on.



Very good points. At this point I'm mocking stuff up with IW + IB + Sample Modeling strings. Now I have a super small template, and one track per instrument. So while there are SOME sacrifices, it is kind of worth it for me to have the simplicity.

I'll concede that some of the transitions on those CSB and CSS are incredible, but hey ... I prefer the ability to shape a note without keyswitching, to sound at this point in my life.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Very good points. At this point I'm mocking stuff up with IW + IB + Sample Modeling strings. Now I have a super small template, and one track per instrument. So while there are SOME sacrifices, it is kind of worth it for me to have the simplicity.
> 
> I'll concede that some of the transitions on those CSB and CSS are incredible, but hey ... I prefer the ability to shape a note without keyswitching, to sound at this point in my life.



I like CSS, but I feel that the library is overrated because of the quality of its legato, which carries most of the library's quality. If you need a melody with a certain amount of drama, CSS can be great.

However, when you try to go for more ambitious writing, CSS becomes a lot less appealing. The legatos and sustains have a totally different dynamic range, sound, and volume. The legato's vibrato is excessive at most dynamics which limits the amount of styles you can write in. Furthermore, it's surprisingly difficult to tie the articulations together into cohesive phrases due to the way they're played, and the lack of envelope controls on the GUI (are there any in CC?). The small selection of articulations doesn't help either.

TL;DR - I like CSS, but I have to give up a lot of ideas when writing with it due to its many limitations, but people overlook those limitations because of its legato.


----------



## Jamus

In addition to what I said, I think Aaron's approach of a perfect player where you make the mistakes yourself is undoubtedly the best approach, as opposed to built in mistakes which are compulsory when ever that round robin or legato sample is triggered. I mean it's way easier to make a good thing sound crap than make a crap thing sound good 😂


----------



## PerryD

I need some cimbassi to layer with these tenor & bass trombones. Anyone know where I can get some?


----------



## El Buhdai

PerryD said:


> I need some cimbassi to layer with these tenor & bass trombones. Anyone know where I can get some?




Hmmm.. Have you tried contacting Aaron Venture? I don't know much about his products but I hear his brass library was due for some Cimbassi. The name of the library is on the tip of my tongue... Was it... Infinus Brass?


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> I need some cimbassi to layer with these tenor & bass trombones. Anyone know where I can get some?




Absolutely no idea if anyone has sampled a cimbasso recently (anyone know?), but I do know that you should definitely share more of your music!!!

btw are those SM strings?


----------



## shawnsingh

Here's more progress on my fanfare thing. about 80% done. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/178TsnlaHXiVjq32iSKan1uf56q1mlYZH/view?usp=sharing (link to mp3))

I'm getting tired of hearing this little cliche fanfare riff... Hopefully I can tolerate it to at least complete this. The ending is incomplete still, and I still need to add woodwinds and fix up the orchestration in several places.

Feedback requested! How's the mix? I wonder if it needs a bit more reverb on the brass. I'd also greatly appreciate if people can point out places where they think the performance programming might sound awkward.

I know I've said it before, but I really don't think this piece could be programmed with any other virtual brass library out there... except maybe SM brass, but I don't have that.

cheers


----------



## Batrawi

PerryD said:


> I need some cimbassi to layer with these tenor & bass trombones. Anyone know where I can get some?



nice track. I was mesmerised by the percussions, what perc. libraries have you used?


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Here's more progress on my fanfare thing. about 80% done. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/178TsnlaHXiVjq32iSKan1uf56q1mlYZH/view?usp=sharing (link to mp3))
> 
> I'm getting tired of hearing this little cliche fanfare riff... Hopefully I can tolerate it to at least complete this. The ending is incomplete still, and I still need to add woodwinds and fix up the orchestration in several places.
> 
> Feedback requested! How's the mix? I wonder if it needs a bit more reverb on the brass. I'd also greatly appreciate if people can point out places where they think the performance programming might sound awkward.
> 
> I know I've said it before, but I really don't think this piece could be programmed with any other virtual brass library out there... except maybe SM brass, but I don't have that.
> 
> cheers



This is just _fantastic!_ For me, it is the best IB demo I've heard.

They have a nice rounded in-the-hall mix feel. Gelling pretty nicely with the strings too. And the percussion sits perfectly too (Truestrike?). I'd be super happy with this. Composition also excellent man!

I'm going to irritate you by asking the standard questions ...

1) I don't suppose you're able to share a MIDI for study purposes, are you?
2) In terms of your mix, is the brass EQ'ed roughly how you had done it beforehand when you kindly shared your settings?
3) Is that Mozarteum or did you go Studio > external convo? Not able to listen on my better speakers so can't quite tell!

Did you say you have the woodwinds parts written already, and are just waiting to stick them in there?


----------



## Smoy

Jamus said:


> The same goes for natural attack vs envelope and so on. I mean once you slapped enough reverb and orchestration around something I don't think anyone is going to complain 😂 I suppose as far as an isolated flute or cello line goes it might become a bit more troublesome but I say bring it on.



Attacks were the big concern when Infinite Brass first came and this it why didn't used it that much in the first year... but I have to say the 1.4 update definitely nailed it, it sounds awesome now. 
I still have the same problem on the woodwinds and from what I heard with the bassoon demo @aaronventure provided, it looks like the same quality will be achieved with the IW 1.2 (This is why I *intensify my F5* on Aaron's website! )

I'm also the owner of the Sample Modeling strings, and the hard truth is that I still can't rely solo on it for my everyday work. I use it where it really shines (repetitive legato, runs etc...) but if you try to put together a short note driven music, they really suck, the attacks are cheesy and squeaky... And the cello's tone sucks too. So I'm really eager to see what Aaron can do with his technology on a string ensemble, cause for now he's the closest dev out there to fulfill my dream of a one track / instrument template, with full divisi, performance driven, no KS etc...


----------



## I like music

Smoy said:


> And the cello's tone sucks too.



I slowly developed the opinion that the cello ensemble didn't at all sound like one. I love their strings, but the ensemble at least (haven't had the chance to drive the solo cello) is missing something, even after the update.

btw have you tried 1.2?

Completely with you regarding the attacks on the woods of IW (and also the crazy improvement we saw in 1.4 for the brass)


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

shawnsingh said:


> Feedback requested! How's the mix? I wonder if it needs a bit more reverb on the brass. I'd also greatly appreciate if people can point out places where they think the performance programming might sound awkward.


To my ears there are two problems:

1) The brass does not sound like it is playing in the same space as the rest of the orchestra.

2) The playing style where a note is hit with Brass instrument, then volume goes down, to slowly rise up again. I don't know what it's called  Sforzato, sforzando, something like that. This playing technique caught my ear in this piece to the point where it quickly became obnoxious. I'm not sure if it is the Infinite Brass that makes it sound the same all the time, or the MIDI programming - or maybe that the technique is simply heavily overused in the piece. Or a combination of all this.

The composition is interesting overall though.


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Absolutely no idea if anyone has sampled a cimbasso recently (anyone know?), but I do know that you should definitely share more of your music!!!
> 
> btw are those SM strings?


Yes. I just edited (raised their level) a few minutes ago. Version 1.2!


----------



## Bluemount Score

shawnsingh said:


> Here's more progress on my fanfare thing. about 80% done. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/178TsnlaHXiVjq32iSKan1uf56q1mlYZH/view?usp=sharing (link to mp3))
> 
> I'm getting tired of hearing this little cliche fanfare riff... Hopefully I can tolerate it to at least complete this. The ending is incomplete still, and I still need to add woodwinds and fix up the orchestration in several places.
> 
> Feedback requested! How's the mix? I wonder if it needs a bit more reverb on the brass. I'd also greatly appreciate if people can point out places where they think the performance programming might sound awkward.
> 
> I know I've said it before, but I really don't think this piece could be programmed with any other virtual brass library out there... except maybe SM brass, but I don't have that.
> 
> cheers


Hey I'm really liking the composition on this one!! Can't say much about the mix as I'm listening on cheap headphones right now


----------



## doctoremmet

Bluemount Score said:


> Hey I'm really liking the composition on this one!! Can't say much about the mix as I'm listening on cheap headphones right now


+1. This sounds GOOD but the composing makes it shine.


----------



## PerryD

Batrawi said:


> nice track. I was mesmerised by the percussions, what perc. libraries have you used?


Thanks! Addictive 2 Boutique Mallets, plus real bongos, congas, guiro, shakers and cymbals.


----------



## doctoremmet

PerryD said:


> Thanks! Addictive 2 Boutique Mallets, plus real bongos, congas, guiro, shakers and cymbals.


The word REAL is what made the difference here for sure!


----------



## Bluemount Score

After some more research about Infinite Brass / WWs, there are two more things that I noticed

First, the flute is the only instrument I didn't like so far. To me it just doesn't sound exactly like an actual concert flute and not very lyrical in tone, sustains and legato transitions, even after (what I think) latest update to 1.1:




Secondly, the overall vibrato control of both libraries. Please tell me that wiggling your mod weel up and down is not the best / only way to achieve a good vibrato sound.


----------



## I like music

Bluemount Score said:


> After some more research about Infinite Brass / WWs, there are two more things that I noticed
> 
> First, the flute is the only instrument I didn't like so far. To me it just doesn't sound exactly like an actual concert flute and not very lyrical in tone, sustains and legato transitions, even after (what I think) latest update to 1.1:
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, the overall vibrato control of both libraries. Please tell me that wiggling your mod weel up and down is not the best / only way to achieve a good vibrato sound.




Regarding vibrato, correct. You don't have to do the mod-wheel wiggle to get vibrato. There's a setting you can turn off and on. If you turn it off, then wiggling the modwheel will only affect dynamics. There will be a separate CC layer for vib speed and vib depth.


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> Yes. I just edited (raised their level) a few minutes ago. Version 1.2!



Can't wait to try them. I'll ask you about your views on 1.2 SM strings on the SM strings thread as I don't want to sidetrack this one.


----------



## doctoremmet

Bluemount Score said:


> To me it just doesn't sound exactly like an actual concert flute and not very lyrical in tone, sustains and legato transitions


This is pretty much the general concensus on here about the 1.1 flutes, I’d wager...

1.2 will likely bring huge improvements.


----------



## DANIELE

PerryD said:


> I need some cimbassi to layer with these tenor & bass trombones. Anyone know where I can get some?




They will be out tomorrow because it is my birthday.


----------



## Smoy

I like music said:


> btw have you tried [sample modeling strings] 1.2?



Yes I put my hands on it yesterday, 
The cello tone still sucks whatever the playing style no improvements here... and the improvements on the attacks they advertised in mail is REALLY subtle, even by manipulating the CC28 & CC29 as they mentioned. Playing shorts still sounds cheesy


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> 1) I don't suppose you're able to share a MIDI for study purposes, are you?



Happy to do so - are you itching for it now, or would it be OK to wait until I'm finished? But this is a side project and may still take another month or so. Barely able to put 4-5 hours a week on this.



I like music said:


> 2) In terms of your mix, is the brass EQ'ed roughly how you had done it beforehand when you kindly shared your settings?



I think so, but can't remember exactly. I might have improved the horns a bit. I think the trumpets are just a bit thin. I tried to fix it but lost the bright piercing tone. So I need to figure out how to balance that.



I like music said:


> 3) Is that Mozarteum or did you go Studio > external convo? Not able to listen on my better speakers so can't quite tell!



Mozarteum + EQ unique to each section. Actually based on @hbjdk's feedback I may experiment again with studio + external.



hbjdk said:


> 1) The brass does not sound like it is playing in the same space as the rest of the orchestra.



If you have a chance, can you please elaborate what quality are you hearing in the brass vs the rest of the orchestra, which makes it sound like a different space? That might help me hear the problem too. I've spent enough time on this mix and on this piece, I have no objectivity and can't hear my own mistakes now =)



hbjdk said:


> 2) The playing style where a note is hit with Brass instrument, then volume goes down, to slowly rise up again. I don't know what it's called  Sforzato, sforzando, something like that. This playing technique caught my ear in this piece to the point where it quickly became obnoxious. I'm not sure if it is the Infinite Brass that makes it sound the same all the time, or the MIDI programming - or maybe that the technique is simply heavily overused in the piece. Or a combination of all this.



I hear it now, too - I did overuse this technique. It's certainly not a problem with the library itself. I'll try not to overuse gimmicks like this in the next piece...


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Happy to do so - are you itching for it now, or would it be OK to wait until I'm finished? But this is a side project and may still take another month or so. Barely able to put 4-5 hours a week on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I think so, but can't remember exactly. I might have improved the horns a bit. I think the trumpets are just a bit thin. I tried to fix it but lost the bright piercing tone. So I need to figure out how to balance that.
> 
> 
> 
> Mozarteum + EQ unique to each section. Actually based on @hbjdk's feedback I may experiment again with studio + external.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a chance, can you please elaborate what quality are you hearing in the brass vs the rest of the orchestra, which makes it sound like a different space? That might help me hear the problem too. I've spent enough time on this mix and on this piece, I have no objectivity and can't hear my own mistakes now =)
> 
> 
> 
> I hear it now, too - I did overuse this technique. It's certainly not a problem with the library itself. I'll try not to overuse gimmicks like this in the next piece...



Take your sweet time! I won't be touching my computer for the next 4 weeks anyways!

Anyway, we do sometimes tend to focus a lot on the libraries used (and rightly so) but again, kudos on an excellent composition!


----------



## PerryD

DANIELE said:


> They will be out tomorrow because it is my birthday.


 My birthday was last week. I had hopes as well... I'm sure it will happen on _someone's_ birthday!


----------



## Beans

Mine is near the end of the month. I'll likely shrivel up into a husk by then, so hopefully this comes out early enough for me to send some money Aaron's way.


----------



## Jamus

I'd be disappointed to find out Aaron's middle name doesn't begin with D. A.D.Venture is a name that could create legends 🤘


----------



## El Buhdai

PerryD said:


> My birthday was last week. I had hopes as well... I'm sure it will happen on _someone's_ birthday!



I hope it comes out on or before October 16th, cause that'll be mine!


----------



## Kent

Does anybody else find IW very susceptible to hanging/stuck notes?


----------



## decredis

kmaster said:


> Does anybody else find IW very susceptible to hanging/stuck notes?


I've never had that issue in IW, but (in case this is relevant to your case) I used to have that when using a TEC breath controller on another library before I bought IW, in Cubase... it turned out to be a known issue with MIDI input from multiple sources in Cubase, with various workarounds: the one I settled on was to use LoopBe and MIDIOx to route the keyboard and the breath controller into Cubase; since then, no hanging notes.


----------



## Kent

decredis said:


> I've never had that issue in IW, but (in case this is relevant to your case) I used to have that when using a TEC breath controller on another library before I bought IW, in Cubase... it turned out to be a known issue with MIDI input from multiple sources in Cubase, with various workarounds: the one I settled on was to use LoopBe and MIDIOx to route the keyboard and the breath controller into Cubase; since then, no hanging notes.


Yeah I have a decently complex Logic>VEP setup which could be feeding into it. Just trying to pinpoint the cause. Thanks for your input!


----------



## shawnsingh

kmaster said:


> Does anybody else find IW very susceptible to hanging/stuck notes?



I only have IB, but also experience stuck notes...


----------



## I like music

kmaster said:


> Does anybody else find IW very susceptible to hanging/stuck notes?


All the time for me actually. Assumed it was my old setup.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> I only have IB, but also experience stuck notes...


Also with ib. Interesting. 

Are you on cubase?


----------



## DANIELE

PerryD said:


> My birthday was last week. I had hopes as well... I'm sure it will happen on _someone's_ birthday!



That's for sure!!


----------



## DANIELE

kmaster said:


> Does anybody else find IW very susceptible to hanging/stuck notes?



As far as I remember I never had stuck notes with Infinite Libraries (I had some with SM Strings) but I'm on Reaper.


----------



## Smoy

decredis said:


> I've never had that issue in IW, but (in case this is relevant to your case) I used to have that when using a TEC breath controller on another library before I bought IW, in Cubase... it turned out to be a known issue with MIDI input from multiple sources in Cubase, with various workarounds: the one I settled on was to use LoopBe and MIDIOx to route the keyboard and the breath controller into Cubase; since then, no hanging notes.



I had this problem all the time when I was on Cubase, but it's not IW-related, it's a cubase old / poor way to handle multiple midi devices and merging their datas. I used to use a MIDI virtual router too, but it was a pain. Probelm completely solved now I'm on Reaper.


----------



## I like music

Wait, are we saying stuck notes _may_ be attributable to multiple input signals coming through? e.g. my cheap Alesis 49 midi controller could be sending some kind of a random signal through (loose knob or something)?


----------



## DANIELE

Smoy said:


> I had this problem all the time when I was on Cubase, but it's not IW-related, it's a cubase old / poor way to handle multiple midi devices and merging their datas. I used to use a MIDI virtual router too, but it was a pain. Probelm completely solved now I'm on Reaper.



Reaper is a great DAW, even Aaron use it.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Wait, are we saying stuck notes _may_ be attributable to multiple input signals coming through? e.g. my cheap Alesis 49 midi controller could be sending some kind of a random signal through (loose knob or something)?


That's definitely the case for cubase, I've seen several report it and it solved it for me to use a virtual midi router, when I was having this problem with SWAM flutes. Not had a stuck note on anything since. And for sure your controller could be sending random data, I know my NI A61 used to send cc1 data randomly.


----------



## Markrs

decredis said:


> That's definitely the case for cubase, I've seen several report it and it solved it for me to use a virtual midi router, when I was having this problem with SWAM flutes. Not had a stuck note on anything since. And for sure your controller could be sending random data, I know my NI A61 used to send cc1 data randomly.


Which virtual midi router do you use?


----------



## decredis

Markrs said:


> Which virtual midi router do you use?


I use midi-ox, and loopbe is involved in some way too. I originally used the free version of loopbe but for some reason I can't remember went for the the paid version eventually. Sorry, not very helpful, I'll find the instructions I followed and edit them in

EDIT: here we go, this is the post describing the solution and linking to the thread that gave them the solution https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74155


----------



## Smoy

DANIELE said:


> Reaper is a great DAW, even Aaron use it.



Man, I love it but if you want to make the switch, I have to say the learning curve is steep and it's definitely not the most eye candy stuff out there... But once you master it, it's the most powerful freaking beast of a soft I ever had.

*F5 still intensifies* tho


----------



## Markrs

Smoy said:


> Man, I love it but if you want to make the switch, I have to say the learning curve is steep and it's definitely not the most eye candy stuff out there... But once you master it, it's the most powerful freaking beast of a soft I ever had.
> 
> *F5 still intensifies* tho


Still using reaper though I have cubase 10.5 pro, but I need to learn to use cubase more.


----------



## Markrs

decredis said:


> I use midi-ox, and loopbe is involved in some way too. I originally used the free version of loopbe but for some reason I can't remember went for the the paid version eventually. Sorry, not very helpful, I'll find the instructions I followed and edit them in
> 
> EDIT: here we go, this is the post describing the solution and linking to the thread that gave them the solution https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74155


Thank you for this can't believe how long this issue has been going for, you would think they would have resolved it.


----------



## decredis

Markrs said:


> Thank you for this can't believe how long this issue has been going for, you would think they would have resolved it.


Incredible isn't it. It's like, such an obvious thing that people are going to want to do, certainly in a professional set up. Bizarre to have to use third-party work arounds. V gratefully that those work arounds exist though.


----------



## I like music

If a stuck note plays in a forest, and no one is there to hear it because 1.2 hasn't been released, does it actually matter?


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> Also with ib. Interesting.
> 
> Are you on cubase?



Looks like conversation moved past this already, but yes I'm on Cubase 9.5


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Looks like conversation moved past this already, but yes I'm on Cubase 9.5



Going to try that midi router thingy. I have no idea what they do but if it fixes the issue and means I don't have to replay the same note to get it to shut up (or restart the engine) then I'm keen.

Weirdly though, mainly happens on the infinite libraries. I wonder if a certain secret CC that should be shielded, is triggering that affects some sort of sustain on those libraries?


----------



## Kent

I get it a lot when I am starting/stopping transport (as one would expect). I also get it when shifting notes around in the Piano Roll after they're already in there...which is odd to me.


----------



## I like music

kmaster said:


> I get it a lot when I am starting/stopping transport (as one would expect). I also get it when shifting notes around in the Piano Roll after they're already in there...which is odd to me.



That's exactly when I've had it. That exact behaviour.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

I like music said:


> If a stuck note plays in a forest, and no one is there to hear it because 1.2 hasn't been released, does it actually matter?


If a note is stuck under the door, do you then read it or hear it?


----------



## Zanshin

I like music said:


> This will be the week. I can feel it in my bones.



I'm filing a formal complaint against you! Another week ends in tears


----------



## doctoremmet

Zanshin said:


> I'm filing a formal complaint against you! Another week ends in tears


The week ends on saturday, no?


----------



## Zanshin

doctoremmet said:


> The week ends on saturday, no?



Has Aaron released on a Saturday in the past?


----------



## doctoremmet

Zanshin said:


> Has Aaron released on a Saturday in the past?


The dude like releases stuff on Saturdays like ALL the time, I’m tellin’ ya


----------



## Zanshin

doctoremmet said:


> The dude like releases stuff on Saturdays like ALL the time, I’m tellin’ ya



LOL, I might have to include your name in the complaint as well.


----------



## doctoremmet

Zanshin said:


> LOL, I might have to include your name in the complaint as well.


Please do, haha.


----------



## shawnsingh

As for cubase dropped notes, yes happens to me when starting/stopping transport a lot, too. Somehow I don't have this problem with other libraries either. For now, I'll assign MIDI reset to a keyboard shortcut =).


----------



## decredis

Differently from what you guys are having with dropped/hanging notes, the problems I used to have with cubase and SWAM (prior to midiox/loopbe solution) were mostly hanging notes when playing (keyboard+breath) fast passages only. Nothing to do with transport and never when playing back as opposed to performing/recording.

EDIT: oh I take it back about never getting hanging notes in anything now, I forgot: MODO Bass gives me hanging notes unpredictably, with only keyboard input and with midiox/loopbe running as normal


----------



## DANIELE

Zanshin said:


> I'm filing a formal complaint against you! Another week ends in tears



Don't worry, my birthday is not ended yet, there's still hope. I'm sure that Aaron is working hard to fulfill this task!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Anyone got any more demos to share using Infinite Brass?


----------



## ZeeCount

Here's a bit from a piece I wrote a while ago. All brass is Infinite Brass.


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

Okay, another n00b question here, sorry! Just bought Infinite Brass and am enjoying it. Recall folks mentioning the use of MIDI Learn when it comes to assigning MIDI controller knobs to stuff like flutter and growl.

Manual notes that "All controls within Infinite Brass can be remapped to any controller you desire. Simply right click on the control, click on “Learn…” and move the controller you wish to assign the
control to." Woo hoo!
So, with IB open in Komplete Kontrol, I right-click Flutter, see that MIDI automation for that is already assigned to cc #16.
I move the knob for CC16 on my keyboard. I see the corresponding digital knob move in KK. But no change in Flutter, no movement in the Flutter slider :(.
I've scoured the Komplete Kontrol manual but... I got nothin'. Also, I note that the MIDI LEARN option is grayed out in the KK menu :(

Thanks in advance for your insights, including "Dude, start a new thread, this is for being on the edge of our seats re Infinite String Theories!"


----------



## Sean J

kmaster said:


> I get it a lot when I am starting/stopping transport (as one would expect). I also get it when shifting notes around in the Piano Roll after they're already in there...which is odd to me.



I almost forgot to reply to this, but...

I've definitely had a lot of stuck notes, in brass mostly for me.


----------



## Jamus

ThatAdamGuy said:


> Okay, another n00b question here, sorry! Just bought Infinite Brass and am enjoying it. Recall folks mentioning the use of MIDI Learn when it comes to assigning MIDI controller knobs to stuff like flutter and growl.
> 
> Manual notes that "All controls within Infinite Brass can be remapped to any controller you desire. Simply right click on the control, click on “Learn…” and move the controller you wish to assign the
> control to." Woo hoo!
> So, with IB open in Komplete Kontrol, I right-click Flutter, see that MIDI automation for that is already assigned to cc #16.
> I move the knob for CC16 on my keyboard. I see the corresponding digital knob move in KK. But no change in Flutter, no movement in the Flutter slider :(.
> I've scoured the Komplete Kontrol manual but... I got nothin'. Also, I note that the MIDI LEARN option is grayed out in the KK menu :(
> 
> Thanks in advance for your insights, including "Dude, start a new thread, this is for being on the edge of our seats re Infinite String Theories!"



I've never used KK but I'd try removing the MIDI map and click the learn button and see if it responds to any control message. For sure using my M-Audio Code 61 with Kontakt 5 in Reaper I've never had any issues with mapping any MIDI CC. Strange!


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

Thanks, Jamus! I could swear I'm doin' everything right here. Clicked the lock icon to unlock, clicked the record button next to it, selected the cc16 knob and turned it, selected "Learn MIDI CC# Automation" in various orders to no avail <sigh>


----------



## I like music

ThatAdamGuy said:


> Thanks, Jamus! I could swear I'm doin' everything right here. Clicked the lock icon to unlock, clicked the record button next to it, selected the cc16 knob and turned it, selected "Learn MIDI CC# Automation" in various orders to no avail <sigh>


Not sure what menu that is, but in kontakt in literally just right click on the infinite GUI and it gives me that option. You shouldn't need to go to that menu you opened up. 

Try for example just to right click on the vibrato depth button. Can't remember if you click on the slider or on the text where it says vibrato depth.


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

Yeah, right clicking on any of those sliders gets me a pop-up that offers "Learn MIDI CC# articulation," which I click on to no avail. No matter what combination of knob futzing I do, it doesn't learn. So right-clicking again yields the same "Learn MIDI..." and then also "Cancel MIDI CC# articulation" :(

I suppose I could try doing this in Kontakt, though I've as of yet to actually do anything in that software; have just been using KK inside and outside of S1. Heh, sorry, this may well not be IB-related and so I probably should start a separate thread :\.


----------



## Jamus

ThatAdamGuy said:


> Yeah, right clicking on any of those sliders gets me a pop-up that offers "Learn MIDI CC# articulation," which I click on to no avail. No matter what combination of knob futzing I do, it doesn't learn. So right-clicking again yields the same "Learn MIDI..." and then also "Cancel MIDI CC# articulation" :(
> 
> I suppose I could try doing this in Kontakt, though I've as of yet to actually do anything in that software; have just been using KK inside and outside of S1. Heh, sorry, this may well not be IB-related and so I probably should start a separate thread :\.



It would be worth giving Kontakt a try just to be sure the issue isn't with your IB installation. If I had to guess I'd say it's something to do with Kontrol. Does KK run inside a DAW? Are your other libraries learning MIDI assignments how you would expect them to?


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

Well, dang, everything works out of the box in Konkakt! :o

So this definitely seems like a Komplete Kontrol oddness. I'll follow up with folks on the Native Instruments platform since it's pretty clear this isn't an Infinite Brass issue. Back to your regularly scheduled programming :D

(and thanks, Janus and I Like Music, for helping me troubleshoot here!)


----------



## I like music

ThatAdamGuy said:


> Yeah, right clicking on any of those sliders gets me a pop-up that offers "Learn MIDI CC# articulation," which I click on to no avail. No matter what combination of knob futzing I do, it doesn't learn. So right-clicking again yields the same "Learn MIDI..." and then also "Cancel MIDI CC# articulation" :(
> 
> I suppose I could try doing this in Kontakt, though I've as of yet to actually do anything in that software; have just been using KK inside and outside of S1. Heh, sorry, this may well not be IB-related and so I probably should start a separate thread :\.


Oh dear! I'm also having trouble with midi learn on a couple of knobs. When I wiggle anything else, it auto assigns it to cc1!


----------



## TGV

I like music said:


> Oh dear! I'm also having trouble with midi learn on a couple of knobs. When I wiggle anything else, it auto assigns it to cc1!


It could have been assigned that #1 before. Reload the patch and check what it says before you click learn.

Another reason might be that your modwheel moves/sends data often. The learn function picks the first midi message that arrives, so anything that accidentally moves can overtake the control that you're intending to assign.


----------



## decredis

TGV said:


> Another reason might be that your modwheel moves/sends data often. The learn function picks the first midi message that arrives, so anything that accidentally moves can overtake the control that you're intending to assign.


This is the problem I had with my old NI A61, mod wheel sending out cc1 data when not being touched. If you've not already tried running a midi monitor (eg midi-ox) worth doing that to rule it out/in.


----------



## DANIELE

I some of you are using Reaper may I advice you to use Midi Mapper X instead of remapping the controls through the library interface?

Since Aaron updates often his libraries you don't have to remap the CCs every time you update it.

I don't know if a plugin like this exists for other DAWs but I think you could find something similar.


----------



## I like music

TGV said:


> It could have been assigned that #1 before. Reload the patch and check what it says before you click learn.
> 
> Another reason might be that your modwheel moves/sends data often. The learn function picks the first midi message that arrives, so anything that accidentally moves can overtake the control that you're intending to assign.


Tried that thank you. Seemed not to work on some CCs but did on others! How random is that?


----------



## I like music

Aaron said he just had the alto and bass flute to go, right?

If we all just promise him that we won't use an alto or bass flute in our compositions, might be that we can get a release tonight.

I'll email him this great idea.


----------



## Keith Levenson

I. Simply. Can. Not. Wait.For. The. Woodwinds.


----------



## doctoremmet

I think I may be going mad. I have literally engaged in a conversation with much revered clarinet God José Herring about purchasing a real clarinet. My love for woodwinds is that deep. I am now actively involved in online searches for a hardware instrument, which unlike samples do not appear to have release dates but have next-day-delivery.


----------



## shawnsingh

doctoremmet said:


> I think I may be going mad. I have literally engaged in a conversation with much revered clarinet God José Herring about purchasing a real clarinet. My love for woodwinds is that deep. I am now actively involved in online searches for a hardware instrument, which unlike samples do not appear to have release dates but have next-day-delivery.



I don't understand. How can you assign different CC controls to it? Actually even further - I heard that real clarinets are not available in VST/AAX/AU, so how can you possibly use it at all?


----------



## doctoremmet

shawnsingh said:


> I don't understand. How can you assign different CC controls to it? Actually even further - I heard that real clarinets are not available in VST/AAX/AU, so how can you possibly use it at all?


Is is meant for standalone use and has a lot of keyswitching devices on something that looks like a PVC pipe... I think it’s more of a controller?


----------



## Kent

Batrawi said:


> I rarely feel the urge to eq the IB instruments, except maybe for the trumpets as they sound as if they have a cup/mute modulation going on, no matter how I try to mess with the eq or try to tame the high frequencies...they still seem to be very sensitive to dynamics and can quickly sound too sharp & lose their body as soon as I move the modwheel up. I notice that Trumpet#4 though has more of a body and less of this issue compared to the other trumpets.. but still overall, I would be happy to see a boost in tone/warmth for all trumpets in the future.
> 
> The way I like to use IB generally, is by making it studio-dry sounding (not bone-dry), then apply my own reverb. The way I do that is by 1)selecting the studio reverb 2)select mic mix#1 then 3)go into the effects and turn the "early" reflection all the way up, and the "late" all the way down. This overall make the instruments sound full and warm in a dry environment which can be ready to use as is in things like pop/jazz, but can also respond well to your own algo reverb if you to add deapth & tail for cinematic or orchestral sound


Can you elaborate on this a bit? Particularly point 3. There are a lot of room convolutions in the back...


----------



## El Buhdai

Keith Levenson said:


> I. Simply. Can. Not. Wait.For. The. Woodwinds.



You and me both, pal. When that update comes out I'm dropping everything to play around with them, no matter what's going on.


----------



## I like music

Curious question. Which instrument number do you use as your main solo instrument eg do you use trumpet 1, or trumpet 3 etc?

I never went looking for differences since I assumed there wouldn't be many but what @Batrawi said about trumpet 4 got me thinking.


----------



## Batrawi

kmaster said:


> Can you elaborate on this a bit? Particularly point 3. There are a lot of room convolutions in the back...


sure. will recheck and let you know tomorrow as I'm away from my studio currently.


----------



## I like music

Anyone else want to claim its their birthday today?


----------



## Batrawi

kmaster said:


> Can you elaborate on this a bit? Particularly point 3. There are a lot of room convolutions in the back...


there you go. under "Insert Effects", you just turn the "IR size" all the way up and all the way down for "Early" and "Late" respectively.


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

Well, it turns out that my issue with using the S88 knobs for IB articulations (flutter, growl, vibrato) is apparently a broader issue with Komplete Kontrol (for me at least), so I've started a separate thread in Tech Support for those who'd like to follow along / help with that issue.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Anyone else want to claim its their birthday today?



Nope, but I will in exactly 10 days


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Nope, but I will in exactly 10 days



Not good enough. We need a birthday today.


ThatAdamGuy said:


> Well, it turns out that my issue with using the S88 knobs for IB articulations (flutter, growl, vibrato) is apparently a broader issue with Komplete Kontrol (for me at least), so I've started a separate thread in Tech Support for those who'd like to follow along / help with that issue.



Interesting. I don't have Komplete Kontrol yet still having these issues. Might reinstall.


Batrawi said:


> there you go. under "Insert Effects", you just turn the "IR size" all the way up and all the way down for "Early" and "Late" respectively.


If you drag both of those down to zero, you basically get the bone-dry recording? At this point, assuming you then have to handle absolutely every aspect of spacialisation and verb etc, right?

Might be a good way for me to try fitting these in with SM strings.


----------



## PerryD

Well...it was Max's birthday today in 1888...he probably would have enjoyed infinite possibilities. 1888 Max Butting, German composer, born in Berlin (d. 1976)


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> Well...it was Max's birthday today in 1888...he probably would have enjoyed infinite possibilities. 1888 Max Butting, German composer, born in Berlin (d. 1976)


There you go @aaronventure. Do it for old Maxy boy!


----------



## Batrawi

I like music said:


> If you drag both of those down to zero, you basically get the bone-dry recording?


don't think so as there would still be some minimal value in the "IR Size". Just bypass/disable the convolution itself if you want bone-dry I guess


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> don't think so as there would still be some minimal value in the "IR Size". Just bypass/disable the convolution itself if you want bone-dry I guess


Got it. Actually I would only do it to experiment. Don't think I want to remove what Aaron has crafted at the end of it. Cheers


----------



## Smoy

Hello guys, is it normal my keyboard is looking like this?


----------



## I like music

Smoy said:


> Hello guys, is it normal my keyboard is looking like this?



Looks like the Darth Vader mask. This thread has truly taken us to the dark side.


----------



## DANIELE

Let's hope there isn't another "Reverb Gate" going on!!


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Aaron said he just had the alto and bass flute to go, right?
> 
> If we all just promise him that we won't use an alto or bass flute in our compositions, might be that we can get a release tonight.
> 
> I'll email him this great idea.


Alternatively, I mean, the SWAM alto and bass flutes are pretty nice, maybe AV could just sneak those into IW1.2, I don't reckon anyone would notice or mind much.


----------



## Zanshin

I like music said:


> There you go @aaronventure. Do it for old Maxy boy!



OMG, I can't believe I'm about to say this... but I got a good feeling about this!


----------



## I like music

Zanshin said:


> OMG, I can't believe I'm about to say this... but I got a good feeling about this!


High percentage play right? Definitely will work.


----------



## pierrevigneron

It's been exactly two weeks since Aaron told us about the imminent release of the next update so I tell myself that it is very likely that it will arrive in the next few hours ...


----------



## Beans

I'm struggling. I keep eyeing Century Brass and Modern Scoring Brass. I need a good update to curb my GAS.


----------



## DANIELE

pierrevigneron said:


> It's been exactly two weeks since Aaron told us about the imminent release of the next update so I tell myself that it is very likely that it will arrive in the next few hours ...



Aaron lives in another dimension where the time is different from our time. He is like Yoda and lives hundred of years so imminent could also means months. You have only a little hope to be still alive when the update will came out.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> Aaron lives in another dimension where the time is different from our time. He is like Yoda and lives hundred of years so imminent could also means months. You have only a little hope to be still alive when the update will came out.


It’s like we are all that one guy in Interstellar that didn’t join the crew to land on that planet near the black hole with all the time dilution (dilation? damn such a hard word) and the really slow ocean waves. Aaron comes back to the spaceship and we’re all old... maybe he lives near a black hole? It’s all deep and sh*t man....


----------



## PerryD

The list: https://www.onthisday.com/today/birthdays.php We must not forget King Wenceslaus! Cake will not be sufficient! 1289 Wenceslaus III of Bohemia, King of Hungary (1301-05) and King of Bohemia and Poland (1305-06), born in Prague, Czech Republic (d. 1306)


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> The list: https://www.onthisday.com/today/birthdays.php We must not forget King Wenceslaus! Cake will not be sufficient! 1289 Wenceslaus III of Bohemia, King of Hungary (1301-05) and King of Bohemia and Poland (1305-06), born in Prague, Czech Republic (d. 1306)


OK. It is definitely being released today...


----------



## doctoremmet

King friggin’ Wenceclaus!!! Didn’t he also invent the cembasso?


----------



## doctoremmet

Wait? He’s from Bohemia? Are we sure this does not signal the release of Virharmonic’s Bohemian Viola instead?

We may have a false positive on our hands here... Damnit


----------



## Zanshin

doctoremmet said:


> We may have a false positive on our hands here... Damnit



You are breaking my heart...


----------



## doctoremmet

Zanshin said:


> You are breaking my heart...


So sorry. But that’s ALSO the task of the true Kremlin Watcher...


----------



## Terry93D

I keep lookin' at the LASS Lite... and it's becoming, bit by bit, harder and harder to say no to it.


----------



## Batrawi

Actually I have no interest in the IW/update... but with the too much wait for IS already, I'm now starting to consider getting 8Dio's Century Solo Brass to fill in the void & satisfy my itching GAS.... what a crazy plot twist  (and I'm not joking)


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> Actually I have no interest in the IW/update... but with the too much wait for IS already, I'm now starting to consider getting 8Dio's Century Solo Brass to fill in the void & satisfy my itching GAS.... what a crazy plot twist  (and I'm not joking)


Not interested in iw update? How come? Assuming you don't have the woods at all?


----------



## Batrawi

I like music said:


> Not interested in iw update? How come? Assuming you don't have the woods at all?


yep


----------



## I like music

Batrawi said:


> yep


What do you use?


----------



## Batrawi

I like music said:


> What do you use?


I'm woodwindless  If I'll be getting any in the future then it would be the SWAM ones.


----------



## PerryD

Update soon or Wagner's Evil Bats will be set free! bwah ha ha....


----------



## ansthenia

Just applying the finishing touches to alto flutes and bass flutes before 1.2 is released sounds promising, but what Aaron failed to tell you all is that 1.2 includes 50 alto flutes and 77 bass flutes. So there's still a long way to go


----------



## Kent

ansthenia said:


> Just applying the finishing touches to alto flutes and bass flutes before 1.2 is released sounds promising, but what Aaron failed to tell you all is that 1.2 includes 50 alto flutes and 77 bass flutes. So there's still a long way to go


Finally we can do Mancini


----------



## Jamus

ansthenia said:


> Just applying the finishing touches to alto flutes and bass flutes before 1.2 is released sounds promising, but what Aaron failed to tell you all is that 1.2 includes 50 alto flutes and 77 bass flutes. So there's still a long way to go



Ahh the ol' Han Zimmer approach to making a flute library 🤘


----------



## DivingInSpace

Jamus said:


> Ahh the ol' Han Zimmer approach to making a flute library 🤘


I think you mean 8Dio  https://8dio.com/instrument/legion-series-66-tubas-for-kontakt-vst-au-aax-samples/


----------



## Dan

PerryD said:


> Well...it was Max's birthday today in 1888...he probably would have enjoyed infinite possibilities. 1888 Max Butting, German composer, born in Berlin (d. 1976)



If we're going by birthdays... Ralph Vaughan Williams was born on October 12th. He's one of Aaron's favorites, isn't he?


----------



## I like music

Dan said:


> If we're going by birthdays... Ralph Vaughan Williams was born on October 12th. He's one of Aaron's favorites, isn't he?


This has to be it. I reckon he launches the strings on this day with a Lark Ascending demo. You've nailed it!


----------



## I like music

Wait, is this the CSW thread or Infinite thread?

I'm so tired I can't even remember which one I'm supposed to be bumping.


----------



## I like music

You've all given up. Amateurs.
Only I know that it is being released tomorrow!


----------



## Zanshin

I like music said:


> You've all given up. Amateurs.
> Only I know that it is being released tomorrow!



my heart is too fragile at this point


----------



## ansthenia

My hype has gone down enough that I'm not checking everyday for 1.2, but of course I'll still be jumping straight on it when I see it's been released


----------



## I like music

ansthenia said:


> My hype has gone down enough that I'm not checking everyday for 1.2, but of course I'll still be jumping straight on it when I see it's been released


Same here. I only check every 1.2 days now


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

Greetings! I interrupt your gnashing and wailing with another annoying Adamquestion: is there any way to move the default IB MIDI automations (e.g., Flutter, Growl) --> *Host* automations? Asking because Studio One + Komplete Kontrol are thumbing their collective nose at MIDI automations and soundly ignoring them for non-NKS instruments :(

Which means I either need to figure out a nice way to bulk copy over MIDI --> Host automations, or manually recreate them in IB separately for each of the 26 instruments. Hoping someone here has a better idea


----------



## I like music

ThatAdamGuy said:


> Greetings! I interrupt your gnashing and wailing with another annoying Adamquestion: is there any way to move the default IB MIDI automations (e.g., Flutter, Growl) --> *Host* automations? Asking because Studio One + Komplete Kontrol are thumbing their collective nose at MIDI automations and soundly ignoring them for non-NKS instruments :(
> 
> Which means I either need to figure out a nice way to bulk copy over MIDI --> Host automations, or manually recreate them in IB separately for each of the 26 instruments. Hoping someone here has a better idea


I don't have an answer but if you do recreate them in instrument you'll likely have to do it again aftertouch downloading the next updates (I could be wrong but that's how I've understood it) so if you can do it another way, probably be more future-proof!


----------



## Jamus

ThatAdamGuy said:


> Greetings! I interrupt your gnashing and wailing with another annoying Adamquestion: is there any way to move the default IB MIDI automations (e.g., Flutter, Growl) --> *Host* automations? Asking because Studio One + Komplete Kontrol are thumbing their collective nose at MIDI automations and soundly ignoring them for non-NKS instruments :(
> 
> Which means I either need to figure out a nice way to bulk copy over MIDI --> Host automations, or manually recreate them in IB separately for each of the 26 instruments. Hoping someone here has a better idea



I'm not sure I fully understood what you were asking but I think I may have asked a similar question regarding Kontakt CC assignments. The best answer was to use a MIDI CC transformer plugin to remap CC data. For example, rather then changing the CC for each parameter on each IW instrument in Kontakt I could use Reapers MIDI CC Mapper plugin to convert CC 16 to CC 3 or whatever numbers they are. The benefits of this was that since all the IW CCs are consistent I would only need to save an FX chain to load onto any/all instruments.

I have very limited experience with Studio One so I'm not sure if it has a CC converter but I believe you could find plenty of free ones online 👍 I hope this was useful information.


----------



## mussnig

ThatAdamGuy said:


> Greetings! I interrupt your gnashing and wailing with another annoying Adamquestion: is there any way to move the default IB MIDI automations (e.g., Flutter, Growl) --> *Host* automations? Asking because Studio One + Komplete Kontrol are thumbing their collective nose at MIDI automations and soundly ignoring them for non-NKS instruments :(
> 
> Which means I either need to figure out a nice way to bulk copy over MIDI --> Host automations, or manually recreate them in IB separately for each of the 26 instruments. Hoping someone here has a better idea



I am also not completely sure that I understood the question correctly but if I want to have everything controllable via Host automation in Ableton Live (without assigning these controls everytime again), I can use some M4L-devices that provide Host automation for a (possibly predefined) set of Midi CCs.


----------



## aaronventure

Brass 1.5 is live. No point sitting on it anymore. I'll do a quick rundown this week, but the demos have all been updated. Woods are done, I just need to do the walkthrough.


----------



## Kent

aaronventure said:


> Brass 1.5 is live. No point sitting on it anymore. I'll do a quick rundown this week, but the demos have all been updated. Woods are done, I just need to do the walkthrough.


I knew there was a reason I couldn’t sleep!


----------



## goalie composer

Woohoo! Congrats, Aaron!


----------



## Kent

Should I be concerned?


----------



## rnb_2

All the Europeans are going to be so happy when they wake up!


----------



## PerryD




----------



## ProfoundSilence

kmaster said:


> Should I be concerned?


im all about infinit ass

#notreble


----------



## dormusic

Well somebody record that 1.5 trumpet already! Also howling legato is a huge deal.


----------



## aaronventure

dormusic said:


> Well somebody record that 1.5 trumpet already! Also howling legato is a huge deal.


Check out Arnold's Fantasy on the demo page. https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass-fantasy-for-trumpet


----------



## Kent

@aaronventure the cimbassi are truly stunning. The horns sound amazing! Everything is even better than before. Thank you for this update!


----------



## TGV

rnb_2 said:


> All the Europeans are going to be so happy when they wake up!


I don't know about the others: I guess some don't know about Infinite Brass yet, but this one was happily surprised.

One thing for those who still haven't received the email with the update links: the link still says 1.4, but when you open it, it downloads 1.5.


----------



## ThatAdamGuy

mussnig said:


> I am also not completely sure that I understood the question correctly but if I want to have everything controllable via Host automation in Ableton Live (without assigning these controls everytime again), I can use some M4L-devices that provide Host automation for a (possibly predefined) set of Midi CCs.



@mussnig and @Jamus sorry for not being clear.
Basically I'm just trying to be able to manipulate aspects of non-NKS instruments like IB (flutter, vibrato, growl) with the knobs on my keyboard, and Studio One is being annoying because it recognizes Host automations but not MIDI automations. 

This is NOT any fault or responsibility of Aaron's; it's an issue with all non-NKS VSTs I guess, and I'm trying to figure things out with Presonus and Native Instruments.

Remapping MIDI CC [x] to MIDI CC [y] isn't going to help, unfortunately, but hopefully there's something within Studio One that can help.


----------



## DANIELE

I wake up and see this...OMG...


----------



## DANIELE

kmaster said:


> @aaronventure the cimbassi are truly stunning. The horns sound amazing! Everything is even better than before. Thank you for this update!



I can't wait to try them...


----------



## axb312

kmaster said:


> @aaronventure the cimbassi are truly stunning. The horns sound amazing! Everything is even better than before. Thank you for this update!



Could you post a demo of the Cimbassi?


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Brass 1.5 is live. No point sitting on it anymore. I'll do a quick rundown this week, but the demos have all been updated. Woods are done, I just need to do the walkthrough.



Don't worry for the walkthrough, I know how to use them!!


----------



## ansthenia

aaronventure said:


> Brass 1.5 is live. No point sitting on it anymore. I'll do a quick rundown this week, but the demos have all been updated. Woods are done, I just need to do the walkthrough.


Thank you, Aaron!


----------



## pierrevigneron

Thanks you Aaron !!!


----------



## pierrevigneron

The demos have been updated with Infinite Woods 1.2 !!!


----------



## ansthenia

pierrevigneron said:


> The demos have been updated with Infinite Woods 1.2 !!!


Though I think only the brass demos contain the updated woodwind sounds. The demos on the woodwind page are still 1.1


----------



## pierrevigneron

Yes but Infinite brass demos use both 1.5 brass and 2.0 woods (i said 1.2 but they are in 2.0 now)


----------



## pierrevigneron

Woodwinds 2.0... really ? Maybe Aaron meant 1.2


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Awww Man, the wait for *BRASS 1.6* is killing me 

On a serious note, Congratz on the Update !


----------



## mussnig

ThatAdamGuy said:


> @mussnig and @Jamus sorry for not being clear.
> Basically I'm just trying to be able to manipulate aspects of non-NKS instruments like IB (flutter, vibrato, growl) with the knobs on my keyboard, and Studio One is being annoying because it recognizes Host automations but not MIDI automations.
> 
> This is NOT any fault or responsibility of Aaron's; it's an issue with all non-NKS VSTs I guess, and I'm trying to figure things out with Presonus and Native Instruments.
> 
> Remapping MIDI CC [x] to MIDI CC [y] isn't going to help, unfortunately, but hopefully there's something within Studio One that can help.



I am actually not talking about remapping the MIDI. There is litterally something like a MIDI device that I plug in the chain before Kontakt (similarly to a MIDI pitch shift), which just sends MIDI CCs and this device is automatically host automated. I don't know but maybe there is something similar around for Studio One?


----------



## ansthenia

I finally returned to my normal life, but now I'm back to checking Aaron's website every 5 mins for the update to drop. Helpp.....mee.....*crawling on the floor in agony*


----------



## pierrevigneron

I just tested for about an hour and allow me to give my opinion on this update. I am happy to be able to move on to the next update as I had purchased IB in version 1.4 and IW in 1.1. Everything seems to me to really gain in quality: the IR, the legato, the timbre 
The mutes seem to be of better quality but the change in timbre less pronounced than in the previous version, which is not a fault, it is a matter of taste... I may just have a reserve on the timbre of the trumpets that I find a little more """metallic""" (but I'm not even sure because I certainly lack of recoil and moreover it may be normal when they are moved back in space). In any case, they immediately work much better in unison. The cimbasso is very beautiful, its sound seems to lie between the tuba and the double bass trombone. Frankly, those who still criticized the Infinite Series for its timbre flaws are less and less legitimate. And of course as it has already been reminded many times, this series is one of the most malleable, reactive Vsti, for immediate results! So from my point of view a very good update and again a big thank you to Aaron who produces really beautiful little gems without having to go through the checkout again!


----------



## Woodie1972

I received an e-mail from the website with info about the brass 1.5 update, but as soon as I clicked on it, my phone said something like 'the e-mail has been deleted from your system'😳. The e-mail has indeed disappeared, also from the server, so I couldn't download it on my pc either, and now I'm afraid it contained the download link.


----------



## ansthenia

Woodie1972 said:


> I received an e-mail from the website with info about the brass 1.5 update, but as soon as I clicked on it, my phone said something like 'the e-mail has been deleted from your system'😳. The e-mail has indeed disappeared, also from the server and now I'm afraid it contained the download link.


If you have your old email with the infinite brass download link, when you purchased the library, then you can use that. The link will take you to 1.5 now, regardless of the version it was at the time.


----------



## pierrevigneron

You also can click on the "how do i update" button on the down which bring you to a page where you just have to entry some infos to have a new link


----------



## shawnsingh

Very excited to try this out!

One questions for Aaron about updating to 1.5 for existing projects. With new pitch bend range, does that mean we'll need to rescale existing pitch bend values in our MIDI data?


----------



## Nextmidi

We had the chance to play with the 1.5 update a bit.
Absolutely fantastic stuff and another step up from 1.4. Incredibly playable, beautiful sounding instruments.
I'll just leave this here:


(There's a breath controller used off-screen)


----------



## artinro

Nextmidi said:


> We had the chance to play with the 1.5 update a bit.
> Absolutely fantastic stuff and another step up from 1.4. Incredibly playable, beautiful sounding instruments.
> I'll just leave this here:
> 
> 
> (There's a breath controller used off-screen)




Great work folks! Would
You consider making some templates for the 1.5 version of IB?


----------



## duringtheafter

Nextmidi said:


> We had the chance to play with the 1.5 update a bit.
> Absolutely fantastic stuff and another step up from 1.4. Incredibly playable, beautiful sounding instruments.
> I'll just leave this here:
> 
> 
> (There's a breath controller used off-screen)



<picks jaw up off floor>


----------



## I like music

duringtheafter said:


> <picks jaw up off floor>



Mind getting mine too while you're there?


----------



## Beans

Oh, neat, now I want Divisimate and a breath controller. I guess I'll add these to the list of things competing for holiday/Black Friday monies. 

Excellent work!


----------



## DANIELE

Nextmidi said:


> We had the chance to play with the 1.5 update a bit.
> Absolutely fantastic stuff and another step up from 1.4. Incredibly playable, beautiful sounding instruments.
> I'll just leave this here:
> 
> 
> (There's a breath controller used off-screen)




I would like to have this ability to play like this. I own Divisimate but I'm not actually able to use it...sadly...


----------



## PerryD

Nice update! French horns made me think of Ron Goodwin's 633 Squadron theme. Very loose mock-up here without any sheet music reference. :/ Quarantine has obviously had very little effect on my sanity.


----------



## Sean J

Nextmidi said:


> We had the chance to play with the 1.5 update a bit.
> Absolutely fantastic stuff and another step up from 1.4. Incredibly playable, beautiful sounding instruments.



You're full of it. Sorry, but it's utterly unprofessional, if not disgraceful, to lie to everyone.

Show us the REAL video... the one of the brass ensemble in the next room.


----------



## Zanshin

DANIELE said:


> I would like to have this ability to play like this. I own Divisimate but I'm not actually able to use it...sadly...


Not to derail the thread but why not? I’m considering it as well.


----------



## oceanic714

PerryD said:


> Nice update! French horns made me think of Ron Goodwin's 633 Squadron theme. Very loose mock-up here without any sheet music reference. :/ Quarantine has obviously had very little effect on my sanity.



Love it. There's a lot of nuance in your technique that only a brass player would be able to capture. Keep posting demos!


----------



## oceanic714

This new update is fantastic. I whipped up a few bars of one of my favorite chamber pieces, Osteoblast for trombone octet. I can't think of any other brass library that can pull off fast passages so naturally.


----------



## duringtheafter

As an Infinite Newbie, I can't wait for the WW update so I can dive in to both the new brass and WWs... Besides, my muscle memory is to refresh the Infinite page often... so I can continue that for a while longer... (1.2? 2.0? Anything...?)


----------



## JoshuaM

oceanic714 said:


> This new update is fantastic. I whipped up a few bars of one of my favorite chamber pieces, Osteoblast for trombone octet. I can't think of any other brass library that can pull off fast passages so naturally.


That’s pretty impressive. I’ve actually performed this piece with an octet and it’s not easy!


----------



## oceanic714

JoshuaM said:


> That’s pretty impressive. I’ve actually performed this piece with an octet and it’s not easy!


Nice! You must have been part of a great ensemble, most choirs would probably not attempt it. I saw the University of Texas trombone choir perform it years ago and I've been obsessed with it since.

Score and parts are on their way on the mail. I can't wait to dive in further.


----------



## DANIELE

Zanshin said:


> Not to derail the thread but why not? I’m considering it as well.



Because I'm not a good player, unfortunately in my life I do another job and I had to choose between study music and play music so this is why.

I bought Divisimate so I know I will try it but actually I'm not so convinced I will put a good use out of it.

Plus...I have to rethink my template and this require a lot of time...but you know?! Speaking of it make me want to try it soon... 


Anyway...I tried the cimbassi, soooo good!! Using them in ensemble with CB Trombones is priceless (BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!).


----------



## Jamus

ThatAdamGuy said:


> @mussnig and @Jamus
> Remapping MIDI CC [x] to MIDI CC [y] isn't going to help, unfortunately, but hopefully there's something within Studio One that can help.



Oh darn. Sorry I could not help. I have no experience with Komplete Kontrol or any NI hardware at all 😞


----------



## Smoy

@aaronventure IB 1.5 is trully wonderfull, responsiveness, playability, attacks, overall tone, sense of space, it's close to perfection... I'm in love with the cimbassi (BRAAAAMMMMM).
Can't wait for IW 1.2 now, thank you for you hard work!


----------



## Woodie1972

Yesterday I posted my issues here with not being able to find my original invoice, so I was concerned about getting the brass update. Yesterday evening I wrote an e-mail to Aaron, using the contact form on the website, explaining my problem and provided some additional info as proof of purchase. This morning I received an e-mail with all info needed to get the update.
This is great customer service and I want to say a big thank you to Aaron and his people!


----------



## I like music

Woodie1972 said:


> Yesterday I posted here my issues with not being able to find my original invoice, so I was concerned about getting the brass update. Yesterday evening I wrote an e-mail to Aaron, using the contact form on tgev website, explaining my problem and provided some additional info as prove of purchase. This morning I received an e-mail with all info needed to get the update.
> This is great customer service and I want to say a big thank you to Aaron and his people!



You mean he spent so long finding your invoice that he's an extra day behind on IW 1.2? You're the real villain in this story.

PS let us know what you think of 1.5 - turns out I won't have a chance for another week at least :(


----------



## DANIELE

Now that IB 1.5 is out and IW 1.2 is almost out we can focus on waiting IS!!


----------



## al_net77

As pointed before, in the brass demo page we have:

"_ Brass and woodwinds in the demos are exclusively from *Infinite Brass 1.5* and *Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 (coming soon)*. Other instruments were added when necessary. "_

So, WW 1.2 or 2.0???


----------



## I like music

al_net77 said:


> As pointed before, in the brass demo page we have:
> 
> "_ Brass and woodwinds in the demos are exclusively from *Infinite Brass 1.5* and *Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 (coming soon)*. Other instruments were added when necessary. "_
> 
> So, WW 1.2 or 2.0???



I think he means to call them since he commented a while back, to the effect that "it may say 1.2 on the tin, but it'll sound like 2.0"

I may have misremembered this though. So I'm wondering if he'll call it 2.0 come the time!


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Was so surprised to see the email. I’ve not been able to keep up with this thread so it was completely unexpected. And Cimbassi! The one thing I’m still missing in my VIs. Wonderful. I haven’t had a chance to download the update yet and am snowed under with other things at the moment but I am working on a piece that I have just started adding brass to (IB 1.4), particularly low brass so this is close to perfect timing. Thank you Aaron for continuing to update and support your products.


----------



## El Buhdai

aaronventure said:


> Brass 1.5 is live. No point sitting on it anymore. I'll do a quick rundown this week, but the demos have all been updated. Woods are done, I just need to do the walkthrough.



WOAH! I was just about to go to sleep. It's 7am... Ummm... Sleep later?


----------



## I like music

Woah - did you see the email about the Woodwinds 1.2 release?















Me neither. Go back to your cimbassi and be happy!


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> WOAH! I was just about to go to sleep. It's 7am... Ummm... Sleep later?


I haven't had the chance to try the brass, but from a couple of things I've heard others do, I think the improvement mentioned about horns legato is actually audible. Need to double-check at some point!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I think he means to call them since he commented a while back, to the effect that "it may say 1.2 on the tin, but it'll sound like 2.0"
> 
> I may have misremembered this though. So I'm wondering if he'll call it 2.0 come the time!



I remember Aaron said that he wants to do some instruments from scratch because he was not satisfied with the method he used (he talked about flutes if I remember correctly) so maybe with 2.0 he means a fresh start for the library, a completely new iteration or starting point. Or maybe it is only a typo and we are wasting precious time guessing what it means.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I haven't had the chance to try the brass, but from a couple of things I've heard others do, I think the improvement mentioned about horns legato is actually audible. Need to double-check at some point!



I'm absolutely over the moon to try them. I actually noticed that the legato for the horns was a slight step down from 1.3 to 1.4 in terms of how much you could shape the sound with dynamics. Hopefully that's been fixed with 1.5!


----------



## El Buhdai

I think I speak for everyone when I say I would happily accept IW 1.2/2.0 with open arms and no walkthrough at launch. Surely we composers have learned tougher things on our own, eh?


----------



## matthieuL

Could somebody tell me how big are the nki files of Infinite Series instruments ? It's a matter when building a template (project file size, then saving time), for example the Orchestral Tools Kontakt instruments are very heavy (can be 10Mo for all articulations of an instrument), and as all is piling up it becomes almost unbearable. Thanks !


----------



## El Buhdai

Here's Infinite Brass 1.4. Is this what you were asking about?


----------



## aaronventure

matthieuL said:


> Could somebody tell me how big are the nki files of Infinite Series instruments ? It's a matter when building a template (project file size, then saving time), for example the Orchestral Tools Kontakt instruments are very heavy (can be 10Mo for all articulations of an instrument), and as all is piling up it becomes almost unbearable. Thanks !


You can load all 29 and project size barely increases by 4 MB. This is how my track presets for Reaper look, and these are slightly bigger sections (17 Brass, Woodwinds with all auxiliaries and saxes) with all the routing and some DSP in there as well (a bit of compression, tape and Retro Color).


----------



## matthieuL

El Buhdai said:


> Here's Infinite Brass 1.4. Is this what you were asking about?


Many thanks, exactly what I meant.
Exceptionnaly light, impressive !


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I think I speak for everyone when I say I would happily accept IW 1.2/2.0 with open arms and no walkthrough at launch. Surely we composers have learned tougher things on our own, eh?



Post *2543*.


----------



## El Buhdai

matthieuL said:


> Many thanks, exactly what I meant.
> Exceptionnaly light, impressive !



Older versions of IB, as well as the current IW 1.1 also have similar file sizes. I'm still downloading IB 1.5 so I can't speak to that, but generally you can expect 50 - 65KB.


----------



## lucor

Looking forward to the WW walkthrough, but it's getting harder and harder to resist these two. Any chance of having a sale soon? 
Oh and has somebody ever tried to use IW and IB with a notation program like Dorico? With them being so resource friendly and their built in humanization, I could imagine them faring quite well.


----------



## Terry93D

I don't think 2.0 is a typo. If you look at the Brass page on the website, it says


> Brass and woodwinds in the demos are exclusively from *Infinite Brass 1.5* and *Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 (coming soon)*. Other instruments were added when necessary.


----------



## ansthenia

Terry93D said:


> I don't think 2.0 is a typo. If you look at the Brass page on the website, it says


Well yeah, "Infinite Woodwinds 2.0" on the brass page is why people are curious in the first place  that's why we're even discussing it.


----------



## mcalis

shawnsingh said:


> Here's more progress on my fanfare thing. about 80% done. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/178TsnlaHXiVjq32iSKan1uf56q1mlYZH/view?usp=sharing (link to mp3))
> 
> I'm getting tired of hearing this little cliche fanfare riff... Hopefully I can tolerate it to at least complete this. The ending is incomplete still, and I still need to add woodwinds and fix up the orchestration in several places.
> 
> Feedback requested! How's the mix? I wonder if it needs a bit more reverb on the brass. I'd also greatly appreciate if people can point out places where they think the performance programming might sound awkward.
> 
> I know I've said it before, but I really don't think this piece could be programmed with any other virtual brass library out there... except maybe SM brass, but I don't have that.
> 
> cheers


Just wanted to drop in and congratulate you on this fantastic piece. I very much enjoyed listening to it! It reminded me a bit of Miklos Rosza's score to Ben Hur. To my ears the mix is very good, I didn't notice that the strings felt to be in a slightly different space than the brass until someone said it, but even then it really wasn't an issue. I think you've completely nailed the most important aspect of any "realistic" mockup, which is the expression, and this piece certainly is very expressive. Kudos to you!

I've already been tempted by IB before, but now I'm _really_ tempted


----------



## Kent

mcalis said:


> I've already been tempted by IB before, but now I'm _really_ tempted


There’s never been a better time to get it! 😉


----------



## DANIELE

Terry93D said:


> I don't think 2.0 is a typo. If you look at the Brass page on the website, it says



Yeah this is what I read, I'm talking about a typo on that description! I know that AV is never wrong but maybe it is the site maker that is wrong. 

(Guessing over 9000 here!!)


----------



## Smoy

Guys, the final F5 has come, go check the website


----------



## ansthenia

Smoy said:


> Guys, the final F5 has come, go check the website


I still can't stop hitting F5, the motion is burned into my brain. Go on without me guys, enjoy 2.0!


----------



## I like music

Something is happening. 1.1 video is now private, and the demos seem to have been updated (certainly the copy mentions 2.0)


----------



## I like music

Smoy said:


> Guys, the final F5 has come, go check the website


lol you weren't joking about hitting F5 all day eh? Good spot!


----------



## John R Wilson

I am getting more and more tempted to pick up both infinite brass and woodwind!! I am liking everything I am hearing about it and being free of key switching would be amazing. I also really like how Aaron is updating the libraries and constantly improving them.


----------



## John R Wilson

I like music said:


> Something is happening. 1.1 video is now private, and the demos seem to have been updated (certainly the copy mentions 2.0)



Might be uploading some new videos to the site maybe.


----------



## Smoy

I like music said:


> lol you weren't joking about hitting F5 all day eh? Good spot!


I was SLIGHTLY exaggerating


----------



## I like music




----------



## I like music

lol guys, I took a chance and just went to one of my old links from when I originally bought IW. Clicked on download and guess what? It tells me I'm downloading IW 2.0 ...


----------



## pierrevigneron

YES ! But... i can't see the video. "This video is private "


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> YES ! But... i can't see the video



I imagine that he's updating/replacing the video. So he probably made the 1.1 video private so no one can see that going forward, and soon he'll upload the other one.

In fact, I expect it'll be the case in the next minutes/hours ...


----------



## decredis

Oooh two soprano saxes added? Had that been trailed or is this a surprise bonus?


----------



## Zanshin

Edit: Sorry Aaron hah.


----------



## I like music

I like music said:


> In fact, I expect it'll be the case in the next minutes/hours ...



I'd like to claim that I'm a VI Nostradamus. The truth is I've been making daily predictions for about 6 months. So when this one comes off correct, I'll accept it graciously :D


----------



## vicontrolu

YES!!

I noticed all the audio files are wav instead of ncw. Any reason why to avoid the compressed format? I thought there was no difference in terms of performacen or anything else, really.


----------



## DANIELE

Smoy said:


> Guys, the final F5 has come, go check the website



For a moment I thinked that you was a clone of a troll named I like music but luckily I believed in you.


----------



## decredis

Oooh the flutes are sounding good on the walkthrough. I think the fluttertongue sounds closer to a proper fluttertongue than I've previously heard on IW or SWAM; and generally the breath/noisiness sounds a lot better.

Seven minutes till my download completes. Exciting times.


----------



## DANIELE

Wow wow wow, I just realized he uploaded the update without the walkthrough, guys, we were joking but he did it for real!! 

Aaron I'm speechless...


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

ohhh damn. might be time to buy it


----------



## decredis

Loving the flute (it has downloaded). The tone has more metal and air in it, and it responds very nicely to high velocity attacks in the sharp breathiness of the attack.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

where are the walkthroughs? I can only listen to the new demos on the site.


----------



## Beans

NeonMediaKJT said:


> where are the walkthroughs? I can only listen to the new demos on the site.



I imagine they'll be posted here, on the web site, and on Aaron's youtube channel once he's ready for them to be shared.


----------



## Zanshin

I'm about 75% through the "leaked" woodwinds walk-thru and I am convinced I wouldn't need to augment with VSL winds for example, it sounds fantastic to my ears  Now just wondering if I should wait for a potential BF sale, we are just a month away ...


----------



## pierrevigneron

Whhooooo the new flute and bassoon sound much better than in 1.1 ! I can't wait to have my download link from Aaron !


----------



## decredis

Zanshin said:


> I'm about 75% through the "leaked" woodwinds walk-thru and I am convinced I wouldn't need to augment with VSL winds for example, it sounds fantastic to my ears  Now just wondering if I should wait for a potential BF sale, we are just a month away ...


Same, having played around with the 2.0 for a little while I'm already thinking AV may have saved me the £200 for VSL's SyWW... I will have to try it out in particular contexts to be sure but I'm feeling very hopeful. 

I don't *think* AV does BF sales does he? Just intro prices for new libraries and crossgrades and bundle discounts. I may be wrong.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Clarinet too ! And for sure all others but i'm particular impressed by these three ones


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Whhooooo the new flute and bassoon sound much better than in 1.1 ! I can't wait to have my download link from Aaron !


You don't need the link! Just find an old link and click download on it. It will automatically download 2.0!


----------



## Zanshin

decredis said:


> I don't *think* AV does BF sales does he? Just intro prices for new libraries and crossgrades and bundle discounts. I may be wrong.



He did a "BF" sale this spring with the 1.4 Brass update lol.


----------



## decredis

Zanshin said:


> He did a "BF" sale this spring with the 1.4 Brass update lol.


Oh yeah, haha! Forgot about that.


----------



## DANIELE

Ehi @aaronventure where is the air knob in the flutes? I was using it a lot!! 

Did you remove it?


----------



## aaronventure

Alright folks, it's live. If you have your purchase notification, click on the old link and it will automatically download the latest update. 



DANIELE said:


> where is the air knob in the flutes? I was using it a lot!!


I don't think you'll need it, the flutes are decently noisy at their loudest.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Alright folks, it's live. If you have your purchase notification, click on the old link and it will automatically download the latest update.
> 
> 
> I don't think you'll need it, the flutes are decently noisy at their loudest.



Ah ok, I was using it mostly with runs because it was adding some power to the sound, I will try without it to listen how it sounds.

Thank you for the answer.


----------



## Zanshin

@aaronventure any plans for a sale yet in 2020? I want to pick up the bundle but I can be patient for my wallet's sake if one is coming (I think lol).


----------



## decredis

Can't get over the quality of the flutes' fluttertongue. I had started to think a decent semi-modelled fluttertongue was out of the question. Also, it's silly, but I've just spent the last few minutes doing absurdly long clarinet glides and bursting out laughing.


----------



## Damarus

Wow that flute update!


----------



## pierrevigneron

It's really impressive how the woodwinds in this version 2 sound so much better and actually gained that organic sound. Aaron is a wizard !


----------



## Max Bonsi

Hi!
Sorry for the maybe "stupid" question but I can't find the user's manual of the libraries.
It's only me?

Thanks guys


Max


----------



## Woodie1972

It's in the folder documentation


----------



## Max Bonsi

Woodie1972 said:


> It's in the folder documentation


yes of course
who knows why I was searching just on the site...
and yes it was a stupid question! 
thanks Woodie!


----------



## shawnsingh

Max Bonsi said:


> yes of course
> who knows why I was searching just on the site...
> and yes it was a stupid question!
> thanks Woodie!



If only I could count the number of times I needed a simple jump-start like this. No worries at all.


----------



## Max Bonsi

shawnsingh said:


> If only I could count the number of times I needed a simple jump-start like this. No worries at all.


Thanks man!!


----------



## DANIELE

I don't know if it is only me but I'm having strange notes hangs when humanize is enabled (I'm not sure if there is a precise threshold but the more I bring this up the worst it gets). If I play fast short notes some times the note hangs forever and I have to press it again to make it stop. Sometimes it plays longer than my press time and stops after it.

It is not easily reproducible but I was able to reproduce it many times, I didn't find the exact way in which it happens and I'll do further tests but it seems not happening with humanize disabled.

Look if you are able to reproduce it, maybe it is only on my side. It happened with flutes and bassoon but this is because I tried fast short notes only on them.


----------



## ansthenia

This update is amazinggggggg!

This is basically non-issue as it's very easy to change with a few clicks, but the default position (the ones they're already in when loaded) for Oboe 1 & Oboe 2 is exactly the same "1st Row CR 1" while Oboe 3 is "1st Row CR 2" and CR 3 isn't used. I feel like this was possibly intended to be Oboe 1 - CR 1, Oboe 2 - CR 2 and Oboe 3 - CR 3 as their default positions when loaded?

Again not a problem just something I noticed lol. The sound is such an improvement over 1.1!


----------



## BradHoyt

decredis said:


> Same, having played around with the 2.0 for a little while I'm already thinking AV may have saved me the £200 for VSL's SyWW... I will have to try it out in particular contexts to be sure but I'm feeling very hopeful.
> 
> I don't *think* AV does BF sales does he? Just intro prices for new libraries and crossgrades and bundle discounts. I may be wrong.


He may have saved you £200, but it looks like he might cost me about $349... lol


----------



## I like music

BradHoyt said:


> He may have saved you £200, but it looks like he might cost me about $349... lol



That 349 will theoretically also save you 200 somewhere down the line


----------



## CT

Finally listening to both the wind and brass demos/videos on proper speakers. I'm really glad my phone speakers weren't lying to me. These updates are great improvements on the sound. I'm very interested to hear where things will go from here.


----------



## El Buhdai

What an amazing surprise to wake up to. I see my week is gone.

In the one year I've owned these, Aaron has overhauled both of them and given 3 smaller updates in between. Unbelievable!

The value here is unparalleled on the market, and I can't wait to support any future libraries that come from this developer.


----------



## Jack McKenzie

Thoroughly impressed so far! I'm extremely happy that not only did @aaronventure take the time to update, redo and tweak elements he and others thought needed done but he also revamped the entire library! So much effort goes into these libraries, it's truly remarkable! And some awesome sounds too!


----------



## BradHoyt

I like music said:


> That 349 will theoretically also save you 200 somewhere down the line


You have a point... At some point, it might hypothetically actually turn out to be free.


----------



## DeCaffinated

That Rite of Spring demo absolutely blew my mind. Unparalled dexterity. That level of lightness and fluidity is something I've never been able to hear, or capture, with Virtual Instruments. I'm tempted to hear (or attempt) a mockup of Mercury with this update.

I'll concede, I think the Debussy and Tchaikovsky demos still sounded a bit artificial--but to my ears that was more the performance than the instruments themselves.

I've been waiting for a couple months to pull the trigger. But with these new updates, I am absolutely purchasing the bundle when I get my next paycheck!


----------



## Leandro Gardini

Massive improvement in all instruments. Especially the woodwinds.
I would dare to say that anyone can confidently retire a lot of sample libraries after adding Infinite Series to the template.
My only observation is about the horns. I am getting intonation problems with all horn of other libraries.
Have someone else noticed it?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

WTF. I checked earlier today and only saw the woodwinds update. I DID NOT SEE the brass update!!! It sounds so good! WOW


----------



## Dan

As others have said before: This update is simply amazing!
I was very excited to see that soprano saxophones were added – now for the first time I own a full saxophone quartet!
I couldn't wait to try it out with this old sketch I had lying around. What can I say... I'm always surprised anew by how agile everything is.


----------



## Jamus

I just had a play through IW 2.0. Outstanding work by Aaron!! The tone is so much thicker and the noise blends in to the instruments so naturally. I did a little a/b with 1.1 and it's safe to say the improvements are no small thing. Ensembles sound more realistic as do all the legato transitions. My confidence in the Infinite series continues to grow and I have every intention of picking up IB and IS when I can.

I. Am. Excited.


----------



## Batrawi

Dan said:


> As others have said before: This update is simply amazing!
> I was very excited to see that soprano saxophones were added – now for the first time I own a full saxophone quartet!
> I couldn't wait to try it out with this old sketch I had lying around. What can I say... I'm always surprised anew by how agile everything is.


I liked this piece a lot... so joyful! but the instruments, not so much. Is this a sax quartet (as labeled)? or are these mixed with some kind of synth


----------



## Saxer

What's the dryest signal you can get out of it? Is it the close mic in the studio room? Or is it possible to get a signal with no convolution at all?

I'm not asking because I don't like the rooms. But sometimes it's interesting to try own settings.


----------



## I like music

leogardini said:


> Massive improvement in all instruments. Especially the woodwinds.
> I would dare to say that anyone can confidently retire a lot of sample libraries after adding Infinite Series to the template.
> My only observation is about the horns. I am getting intonation problems with all horn of other libraries.
> Have someone else noticed it?



I haven't checked but will check tonight. Have you got any examples you can post? Will try to replicate tonight.


----------



## Batrawi

Saxer said:


> Or is it possible to get a signal with no convolution at all?


yes that's possible


----------



## Sean J

Hey everyone...

The Harry Potter Flute demo follow-up from much earlier in this thread is done. I felt it was best to post it in the Woodwind announcement thread and crosspost here.



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-woodwinds-2-0%E2%80%94welcome-to-the-next-generation.99627/page-2#post-4658726


----------



## vicontrolu

Didnt try it but if you turn off all the convolution and use the close mics youll probably end up with something ala sample modelling.

I quickly tried the flute and the brass and first impression is that is even more playable than before. Attacks a bit more under control, improved legato..This is the real deal!


----------



## decredis

Would it be fair to say that, of this fabulous smörgåsbord of wind, one weaker point is the oboe? 

I think I've noticed it's one of few instruments not being singled out for praise much; and, to my non-expert ears, it sounds somewhat thinner and blander compared with the robust organic character of the other IW2.0 instruments and IB1.5. 

I'd be curious to know what more experienced listeners think of the oboes.


----------



## Saxer

Batrawi said:


> yes that's possible


How?


----------



## CT

decredis said:


> Would it be fair to say that, of this fabulous smörgåsbord of wind, one weaker point is the oboe?
> 
> I think I've noticed it's one of few instruments not being singled out for praise much; and, to my non-expert ears, it sounds somewhat thinner and blander compared with the robust organic character of the other IW2.0 instruments and IB1.5.
> 
> I'd be curious to know what more experienced listeners think of the oboes.



I think, of the woodwinds, the weak points are still the flutes, especially the extended flute family, and the oboes, including that bass oboe....

Overall though, I think I now prefer the woodwinds to the brass. Like I said before, curious where things go from here.


----------



## mikeh-375

I'm still lurking here, trying to make my mind up. ATM it's either Berlin Percussion, or AV wind and brass.
I've just listened to the Malcom Arnold trumpet demo and that might well do the trick. I can't think of another sample set that can pull of with such verve, that brilliant piece. Finger on trigger, it's getting tense.
edit, I must agree with @Mike T above about the flutes, the Tchaikovsky just lacked a little sparkle for me.
EDIT 2...I'm back on board with the flute having just heard @Sean J and the Harry Potter example in the woodwind thread.

EDIT 3 - I don't know what to buy...aaaaaarrrgghhh


----------



## I like music

mikeh-375 said:


> I'm still lurking here, trying to make my mind up. ATM it's either Berlin Percussion, or AV wind and brass.
> I've just listened to the Malcom Arnold trumpet demo and that might well do the trick. I can't think of another sample set that can pull of with such verve, that brilliant piece. Finger on trigger, it's getting tense.
> edit, I must agree with @Mike T above about the flutes, the Tchaikovsky just lacked a little sparkle for me.
> EDIT 2...I'm back on board with the flute having just heard @Sean J and the Harry Potter example in the woodwind thread.



Percussion? pfffft!!!!


Just do it!


----------



## mikeh-375

I like music said:


> Percussion? pfffft!!!!
> 
> 
> Just do it!



aaarrrrgggghhhhh...


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Percussion? pfffft!!!!


I like music is right, you know, just sample that "pfffft!!!!", pitch-shift and time-stretch it a bit, and you've got all the percussion you need.


----------



## Dan

Batrawi said:


> I liked this piece a lot... so joyful! but the instruments, not so much. Is this a sax quartet (as labeled)? or are these mixed with some kind of synth



No, it's just the saxes, but to be honest they are mostly playing in the upper part of their range except for the contrabass sax. So I admit they sound a bit stressed and don't have that typical sound... should have transposed the whole thing I guess...


----------



## decredis

Mike T said:


> I think, of the woodwinds, the weak points are still the flutes, especially the extended flute family, and the oboes, including that bass oboe....


Yes, I think I've convinced myself that, for my needs (I'm quite happy with the flutes in IW now, but wherever they're not sufficient, I do already have VSL, in one direction, and SWAM, in the other) I don't 'need' the VSL SyWW package, but I might supplement IW with a couple of members of the VSL's old VI oboe family in their current 2 for 1 thing.

EDIT: I'm finding with the IW flute, if it's still not quite bright and airy enough for a given situation, it polishes up nicely with just a little eq boost around 3 or 4 kHz and a bit of an upper shelf boost above 10kHz.


----------



## decredis

@aaronventure A random gui bug: on some of the instruments some of the time (eg it just happened on Flute 1 for me, but doesn't happen all the time), the position menu initially comes up as the old style drop down menu then after one or a few further attempts eventually comes up with the new style graphical position selector.


----------



## DANIELE

DANIELE said:


> I don't know if it is only me but I'm having strange notes hangs when humanize is enabled (I'm not sure if there is a precise threshold but the more I bring this up the worst it gets). If I play fast short notes some times the note hangs forever and I have to press it again to make it stop. Sometimes it plays longer than my press time and stops after it.
> 
> It is not easily reproducible but I was able to reproduce it many times, I didn't find the exact way in which it happens and I'll do further tests but it seems not happening with humanize disabled.
> 
> Look if you are able to reproduce it, maybe it is only on my side. It happened with flutes and bassoon but this is because I tried fast short notes only on them.



Anyone?


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> @aaronventure A random gui bug: on some of the instruments some of the time (eg it just happened on Flute 1 for me, but doesn't happen all the time), the position menu initially comes up as the old style drop down menu then after one or a few further attempts eventually comes up with the new style graphical position selector.



I think it depends on where you click, the old menu should be there with the new GUI. If I remember correctly if you click on the symbol you have the old menu, if you click on the letters you have the new GUI. Both are useful.

I don't have it in front of me right now so I cannot try.


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> I think it depends on where you click, the old menu should be there with the new GUI. If I remember correctly if you click on the symbol you have the old menu, if you click on the letters you have the new GUI. Both are useful.
> 
> I don't have it in front of me right now so I cannot try.


Oh I see! Sorry, @aaronventure, not a bug. Yes, it seems clicking on symbol or word brings the new gui, clicking the very rightmost part of the text box brings up the drop down menu. Cheers!


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> Anyone?


I just spent a few minutes playing fast on flute and bassoon with maximum humanise and didn't get any hanging notes. (Cubase 10, breath controller and midi keyboard via loopbe and midi-ox.)


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Anyone?



No hanging notes sorry mate


----------



## I like music

Anyone know if the volume of 2.0 is similar to 1.1? Going to go over my old projects and so I'm curious what kind of adjustments to expect!


----------



## I like music

Please note: it sounds like pitch bend is much more sensitive (due to Aaron extending it to 3 semitones). Any old projects where you've used pitch-bend to give a bit of ensemble variation will now sound like it is way out of tune, so you'll have to reduce the bend value.


----------



## Jamus

I like music said:


> Anyone know if the volume of 2.0 is similar to 1.1? Going to go over my old projects and so I'm curious what kind of adjustments to expect!


2.0 sounds louder to me. I didn't compare the levels so it could just sound more powerful. I have a feeling compression was a big part of this update.

EDIT: Pro Q reports more high frequency (and I think noise in general) in 2.0. In 1.1 the instruments (atleast the flutes for certain) appeared to have a pretty steep cut nearing 20k. The reason I mention compression is because in 1.1 no matter where you put the breath noise setting it never quite sounds like it's apart of the sound source 🤔 I tried to remedy these thing with compressors and saturation but there's no need for this is 2.0. it is all smushed in together quite nicely!


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> I just spent a few minutes playing fast on flute and bassoon with maximum humanise and didn't get any hanging notes. (Cubase 10, breath controller and midi keyboard via loopbe and midi-ox.)





I like music said:


> No hanging notes sorry mate



It has to be a Reaper thing then!! I'll try with the standalone and see, I already tried with every plugin disabled on the track. I'll find out the cause and let you know. Thank you.


----------



## easynam

I think the hanging notes are due to humanization delaying note on events to after when note off events happen, so if you play a note thats too short sometimes it'll get stuck. Apparently note off events aren't moved so that you don't accidently trigger legato when you don't want it.

Anyway, this update sounds incredible! Really looking forward to the strings.


----------



## Jamus

decredis said:


> Would it be fair to say that, of this fabulous smörgåsbord of wind, one weaker point is the oboe?
> 
> I think I've noticed it's one of few instruments not being singled out for praise much; and, to my non-expert ears, it sounds somewhat thinner and blander compared with the robust organic character of the other IW2.0 instruments and IB1.5.
> 
> I'd be curious to know what more experienced listeners think of the oboes.



The oboe is quite thin indeed. EQ tells me it's fundamentals are low in comparison to other libraries. High shelf around 1k or so and adjust volume to make up for the loss seems to bring body back to the oboe, particularly in the low range 👍


----------



## pierrevigneron

I remade my model of the star wars opening with infinite woodwinds 2 and infinite brass 1.5. All woodwinds and brass come exclusively from this series. Do not hesitate to take a critical look because I want to use it for educational / promotional purposes


----------



## DANIELE

easynam said:


> I think the hanging notes are due to humanization delaying note on events to after when note off events happen, so if you play a note thats too short sometimes it'll get stuck. Apparently note off events aren't moved so that you don't accidently trigger legato when you don't want it.
> 
> Anyway, this update sounds incredible! Really looking forward to the strings.



Yeah I think the same thing! It is not a bug but more a "feature" that cause this, I have to try to write down the notes because I only tried to play them directly from my S88 MK1 and maybe it is the keyboard.


----------



## Batrawi

pierrevigneron said:


> I remade my model of the star wars opening with infinite woodwinds 2 and infinite brass 1.5. All woodwinds and brass come exclusively from this series. Do not hesitate to take a critical look because I want to use it for educational / promotional purposes


excellent job! the only thing I didn't like is how the brass plays in the 0:48 part, I guess it's a performance issue not the library's fault. There's also a weird sound coming in @ 0:53. not sure if that's a trumpet or what but it sounds obviously bad to me. As for the WW I have no particular remarks, but that because they were well buried in this inherently loud/brassy piece I guess


----------



## shawnsingh

It does sound great! Yeah, I was going to mention the same feedback around 0:50.

Also, I wonder if the balance between high/mid/low brass can be tweaked. The trumpets felt too quiet compared to the horns and upper-low brass (I guess trombones? I actually don't know what the instrumentation should be here). The low brass felt slightly weak too, like when the melody repeats the second time on the horns, and the low brass has syncopated bouncy rhythms with the timpani - it feels like they aren't as prominent as I'd expect.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Batrawi said:


> excellent job! the only thing I didn't like is how the brass plays in the 0:48 part, I guess it's a performance issue not the library's fault. There's also a weird sound coming in @ 0:53. not sure if that's a trumpet or what but it sounds obviously bad to me. As for the WW I have no particular remarks, but that because they were well buried in this inherently loud/brassy piece I guess



It's curious, I also find this passage a little curious. On my score they are triplets but when you listen to the original recording it's almost sixteenth notes. Finally it is perhaps not this defect that you noted?


----------



## pierrevigneron

I agree with these trumpets which sound less strong than other brass instruments, thank you for your comments


----------



## I like music

The trumpets in IB always sounded to me like the older recordings you got. Listening to a few JW and Jerry Goldsmith scores, you had a slightly thinner, crisper trumpet. Guessing it was to do with the recording style etc but I like them nontheless. I think the vibrato in 1.5 is slightly more pronounced e.g. can get more of a wobble?


----------



## I like music

PS got my trumpets 1db higher than the rest of the brass this time. Means you can still keep your body and hear them a bit better without getting to bright at the top.


----------



## Zanshin

I took the leap, bought the bundle just now. If it goes on sale during BF you'll have to put up with my grumpy old man complaining


----------



## K. Johnston

DANIELE said:


> It has to be a Reaper thing then!! I'll try with the standalone and see, I already tried with every plugin disabled on the track. I'll find out the cause and let you know. Thank you.



I am a Reaper user myself and I also have hanging notes when I updated IW. After tinkering around some, I think I found out why. It I had some note repetitions that had overlapping note events or the note off event is too close to the next note start of the same pitch, they hang. Perhaps the humanizing is causing them to hang like that as mentioned earlier. The solution was simply to disconnect the notes some and no more note hang. However, the notes do still hang if you stop playback right after the note on events for any IW tracks. This is more of a minor annoyance for me as it renders out well. 

Aaron... These runs are the best I’ve heard on a VI. Simply breathtaking. Thank you sir!


----------



## DANIELE

K. Johnston said:


> I am a Reaper user myself and I also have hanging notes when I updated IW. After tinkering around some, I think I found out why. It I had some note repetitions that had overlapping note events or the note off event is too close to the next note start of the same pitch. Perhaps the humanizing is causing them to hang like that. The solution was simply to disconnect the notes some and no more note hang. However, the notes do still hang if you stop playback Right after the note on events for any IW tracks. This is more of a minor annoyance for me.
> 
> Aaron... These runs are the best I’ve heard on a VI. Simply breathtaking. Thank you sir!



Thank you, makes sense, so is it a Reaper fault or IW fault? Aaron has Reaper too.


----------



## Woodie1972

Just played a bit with the IW 2.0 and I like it a lot! Overall positive changes, altough I have to agree on the sound of the Oboe, which sounds a bit thin to my ears too, especially in the lower register.

But what surpises me most is the sound of the Saxophones: really a thin sound, almost synthetic and no option anymore to change the character of the sound like it was possible in IW 1.1.... This is a strange decision IMO. Do I miss something?


----------



## Terry93D

K. Johnston said:


> Aaron... These runs are the best I’ve heard on a VI. Simply breathtaking. Thank you sir!


Now to wait for the Infinite Strings so I can have the string runs of my dreams!

Impatience aside, my gratitude to Aaron for the incredible quality of the VIs and the work he puts into them.


----------



## decredis

Woodie1972 said:


> Just played a bit with the IW 2.0 and I like it a lot! Overall positive changes, altough I have to agree on the sound of the Oboe, which sounds a bit thin to my ears too, especially in the lower register.
> 
> But what surpises me most is the sound of the Saxophones: really a thin sound, almost synthetic and no option anymore to change the character of the sound like it was possible in IW 1.1.... This is a strange decision IMO. Do I miss something?


Oooh yes actually, I agree, having just tried the saxes A/Bing between 1.1 and 2.0, 2.0 seem thinner, less organic, out of the box at least; a change in the opposite direction from most of the library.

EDIT: And looking at a frequency spectrum of the two side by side, it does look as though a lot of lower frequency content has been substantially attenuated in 2.0.


----------



## Woodie1972

I did the same as you did and there is a significant difference in tone, plus that you can't change the initial character of the instrument anymore.
Thinking about the massive amount of time Aaron Ventue must have put into developing version 2.0, one wouldn't expect such a stepback in sound for the saxes, at least to my taste it is a stepback. On the other hand, he must have heard this difference too after all the testing he has done and published it as it is, so probably this is how he wants it to be.


----------



## decredis

Woodie1972 said:


> I did the same as you did and there is a significant difference in tone, plus that you can't change the initial character of the instrument anymore.
> Thinking about the massive amount of time Aaron Ventue must have put into developing version 2.0, one wouldn't expect such a stepback in sound for the saxes, at least to my taste it is a stepback. On the other hand, he must have heard this difference too after all the testing he has done and published it as it is, so probably it is how he wants it to be.


Yeah, to be honest I don't trust my level of familiarity with any of these instruments to be a good judge of realism, but purely subjectively I think I prefer the 1.1 sax sound too.


----------



## Batrawi

Woodie1972 said:


> On the other hand, he must have heard this difference too after all the testing he has done and published it as it is, so probably this is how he wants it to be.


or it could be ear fatigue. It's an insane amount of efforts and instruments that have been re-done. even the best ears can get lost in all this chaos.


----------



## DANIELE

Terry93D said:


> Now to wait for the Infinite Strings so I can have the string runs of my dreams!
> 
> Impatience aside, my gratitude to Aaron for the incredible quality of the VIs and the work he puts into them.



The strings will be monumental in terms of effort, I can only imagine how much work he has to do for strings.


----------



## MisteR

Saxer said:


> How?


@aaronventure 
Just bumping this question. How, if possible, do you turn off all convolution to get a dry signal to use with your own external verbs?


----------



## Batrawi

MisteR said:


> @aaronventure
> Just bumping this question. How, if possible, do you turn off all convolution to get a dry signal to use with your own external verbs?


@Saxer , @MisteR 
From the GUI, make sure the Mixed Mic is On, then click on the wrench icon, find the "insert effects" tab and click the bypass button under convolution


----------



## John R Wilson

DANIELE said:


> The strings will be monumental in terms of effort, I can only imagine how much work he has to do for strings.



The strings are what I'm waiting for!!


----------



## Saxer

Batrawi said:


> @Saxer , @MisteR
> From the GUI, make sure the Mixed Mic is On, then click on the wrench icon, find the "insert effects" tab and click the bypass button under convolution


Ah, thanks a lot!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Very curious to hear some comparisons against something like Berlin Woodwinds (not necessarily for agility which IW will excel at but tonally).


----------



## MisteR

Batrawi said:


> @Saxer , @MisteR
> From the GUI, make sure the Mixed Mic is On, then click on the wrench icon, find the "insert effects" tab and click the bypass button under convolution


Thanks!


----------



## PerryD

Brass & WW updates are pretty sweet. Ha! I've lost direction on this W.I.P. arrangement but I'm having fun.


----------



## El Buhdai

I've seen the early criticisms of the new woodwinds. Guys, after dropping both updates into that old demo I made with the "wild" writing, I don't share any of those criticisms (though to be fair I haven't used the new saxes yet). For the first time, all brass and woodwinds are Infinite. Practically out of the box. I didn't need anything else.

This demo should show off Infinite's tone, about 80% of its writing capabilities, and about 60% of its instruments All standard orchestral instruments are covered except the piccolo and contrabassoon. Maybe I'll work them into a future version of this demo.

When it's done I hope it can be a comprehensive and extensive look at the library's capabilites, all within about 5 minutes of music. It's still a WIP, but after about 5 hours of work yesterday, I think it's still listenable.

Strings & Percussion:
- Hollywood Strings
- Hollywood Percussion
- Hollywood Solo Harp

Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):

4 Trumpets
6 French Horns
3 Tenor Trombones
1 Bass Trombone
2 Euphoniums
1 Tuba

Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):

2 Flutes
1 Alto Flute
1 Oboe
1 English Horn
2 Clarinets
2 Bassoons
1 Bass Clarinet
1 Contrabass Clarinet


----------



## mojamusic

PerryD said:


> Brass & WW updates are pretty sweet. Ha! I've lost direction on this W.I.P. arrangement but I'm having fun.




This sounds good!


----------



## PerryD

El Buhdai said:


> I've seen the early criticisms of the new woodwinds. Guys, after dropping both updates into that old demo I made with the "wild" writing, I don't share any of those criticisms (though to be fair I haven't used the new saxes yet). For the first time, all brass and woodwinds are Infinite. Practically out of the box. I didn't need anything else.
> 
> This demo should show off Infinite's tone, about 80% of its writing capabilities, and about 60% of its instruments All standard orchestral instruments are covered except the piccolo and contrabassoon. Maybe I'll work them into a future version of this demo.
> 
> When it's done I hope it can be a comprehensive and extensive look at the library's capabilites, all within about 5 minutes of music. It's still a WIP, but after about 5 hours of work yesterday, I think it's still listenable.
> 
> Strings & Percussion:
> - Hollywood Strings
> - Hollywood Percussion
> - Hollywood Solo Harp
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 2 Euphoniums
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 1 Oboe
> 1 English Horn
> 2 Clarinets
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet


 Lovely, frantic descent into insanity. Excellent work!


----------



## Markrs

El Buhdai said:


> I've seen the early criticisms of the new woodwinds. Guys, after dropping both updates into that old demo I made with the "wild" writing, I don't share any of those criticisms (though to be fair I haven't used the new saxes yet). For the first time, all brass and woodwinds are Infinite. Practically out of the box. I didn't need anything else.
> 
> This demo should show off Infinite's tone, about 80% of its writing capabilities, and about 60% of its instruments All standard orchestral instruments are covered except the piccolo and contrabassoon. Maybe I'll work them into a future version of this demo.
> 
> When it's done I hope it can be a comprehensive and extensive look at the library's capabilites, all within about 5 minutes of music. It's still a WIP, but after about 5 hours of work yesterday, I think it's still listenable.
> 
> Strings & Percussion:
> - Hollywood Strings
> - Hollywood Percussion
> - Hollywood Solo Harp
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 2 Euphoniums
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 1 Oboe
> 1 English Horn
> 2 Clarinets
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet


Sounds fantastic!


----------



## decredis

El Buhdai said:


> I've seen the early criticisms of the new woodwinds. Guys, after dropping both updates into that old demo I made with the "wild" writing, I don't share any of those criticisms (though to be fair I haven't used the new saxes yet). For the first time, all brass and woodwinds are Infinite. Practically out of the box. I didn't need anything else.
> 
> This demo should show off Infinite's tone, about 80% of its writing capabilities, and about 60% of its instruments All standard orchestral instruments are covered except the piccolo and contrabassoon. Maybe I'll work them into a future version of this demo.
> 
> When it's done I hope it can be a comprehensive and extensive look at the library's capabilites, all within about 5 minutes of music. It's still a WIP, but after about 5 hours of work yesterday, I think it's still listenable.
> 
> Strings & Percussion:
> - Hollywood Strings
> - Hollywood Percussion
> - Hollywood Solo Harp
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 2 Euphoniums
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 1 Oboe
> 1 English Horn
> 2 Clarinets
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet


That *is* shockingly good. *applauds AV, and applauds you*


----------



## El Buhdai

decredis said:


> That *is* shockingly good. *applauds AV, and applauds you*



Yeah I can see where there may still be minor gripes with some instruments, but frankly when it finally sounds this good, this human, this alive in a full orchestral context, I simply don't care about those gripes anymore.

Fantastic work, Aaron. I'm still in disbelief at how you've managed this.


----------



## Scamper

Nice, Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 sounds much better than the previous version. It seems like it has become a fantastic choice when it comes to woodwinds libraries and I'm getting interested now, but after the available demos, I'm still unsure about some of its capabilities.

First, exposed lyrical lines.
Haven't hear much of this so far, so I'd like to hear some lyrical lines, especially including the flute, oboe, english horn, clarinet and bassoon.

Also the shorts.
For example, in the "Dance of the Reed Flutes" demo at the beginning, the shorts in the flutes sounds like they lack some attack, aren't very snappy and sound almost organ-like. I'm not sure, if it's deliberate and therefore a matter of performance, but I'm interested in hearing more of the variety of the shorts and degrees of attack. 

Is anybody up to provide some demos?


----------



## I like music

Scamper said:


> Nice, Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 sounds much better than the previous version. It seems like it has become a fantastic choice when it comes to woodwinds libraries and I'm getting interested now, but after the available demos, I'm still unsure about some of its capabilities.
> 
> First, exposed lyrical lines.
> Haven't hear much of this so far, so I'd like to hear some lyrical lines, especially including the flute, oboe, english horn, clarinet and bassoon.
> 
> Also the shorts.
> For example, in the "Dance of the Reed Flutes" demo at the beginning, the shorts in the flutes sounds like they lack some attack, aren't very snappy and sound almost organ-like. I'm not sure, if it's deliberate and therefore a matter of performance, but I'm interested in hearing more of the variety of the shorts and degrees of attack.
> 
> Is anybody up to provide some demos?



Happy to - any particular lines you want us to mock up?

EDIT: I'll start with Dvorak's english horn thingy from new world symphony. will not have accompaniment. also will do gabriel's oboe. should take care of two lyrical and slow expressive lines for ya. anything specific you want for flute?


----------



## Scamper

I like music said:


> Happy to - any particular lines you want us to mock up?



Thanks.
Any line is fine for me, but it would be great, if you can also show various levels of dynamics in various registers.

But since you asked, if you can mockup the first 4 bars of flutes of the Dance of the Reed Pipes and get it more snappy and with marcato attacks like the recording, that would be stellar.


----------



## John R Wilson

Getting more and more tempted by these. Any chance if anyone could do a short video showing the playability of it. I know Aaron does a small demo playing on the keyboard at the beginning of his videos but would be good to just see someone playing a variety of playing including longs, runs and shorts so can establish how it reacts to playing on the piano.


----------



## I like music

Scamper said:


> Thanks.
> Any line is fine for me, but it would be great, if you can also show various levels of dynamics in various registers.
> 
> But since you asked, if you can mockup the first 4 bars of flutes of the Dance of the Reed Pipes and get it more snappy and with marcato attacks like the recording, that would be stellar.




I shall get to this within the next couple of days. Meanwhile, just exporting a rough first run-through of the English Horn line by Dvorak. Keep in mind that I just went iwth a vibrato speed and depth I felt was appropriate, but I've heard many a performance where it is more exaggerated. Let me know if you want it more flowery. English Horn is such a tricky one to sample I imagine!


----------



## CT

José Herring said:


> These sound really good.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no comparison. The Harry Potter example on any other sample flute would fall on its ass playing that. My only critique is that it's almost too perfect which makes it seem artificial. But, who really cares about that.



Quoting you over into this thread since that was the official developer thread. What do you make of this? I didn't edit the MIDI, just pasted it right in.


----------



## I like music

Scamper said:


> Thanks.
> Any line is fine for me, but it would be great, if you can also show various levels of dynamics in various registers.
> 
> But since you asked, if you can mockup the first 4 bars of flutes of the Dance of the Reed Pipes and get it more snappy and with marcato attacks like the recording, that would be stellar.






So this is quite literally Mozarteum, position 2, mixed mic, no other reverb or EQ etc. Let me know if you want it tweaking in any way. I'm sure I only got 30% out of it - still need to get to grips with the new instruments (especially the transitions as they are definitely different tonally and there's a trick to them I haven't yet twigged)


----------



## Markrs

What we need is some jazz flute! 😁


----------



## axb312

I like music said:


> So this is quite literally Mozarteum, position 2, mixed mic, no other reverb or EQ etc. Let me know if you want it tweaking in any way. I'm sure I only got 30% out of it - still need to get to grips with the new instruments (especially the transitions as they are definitely different tonally and there's a trick to them I haven't yet twigged)




Needs a limiter I think...


----------



## José Herring

Mike T said:


> Quoting you over into this thread since that was the official developer thread. What do you make of this? I didn't edit the MIDI, just pasted it right in.





Mike T said:


> Quoting you over into this thread since that was the official developer thread. What do you make of this? I didn't edit the MIDI, just pasted it right in.


Pretty damn Amazing! Jesus I'm really missing out on WW libraries. I'm set for brass and strings but way behind on ww. 

My only critic is that it gets a little bit of that butterfly effect at times. I never could figure out why that happens. 

Is this VSL?


----------



## CT

José Herring said:


> Jesus I'm really missing out on WW libraries.



Don't sweat it. You already own this flute. 

I know what you mean about "butterfly." I think it's just asking the transitions to go faster than they were recorded? Could be fixable by actually playing the line with this flute.


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> Quoting you over into this thread since that was the official developer thread. What do you make of this? I didn't edit the MIDI, just pasted it right in.


Pretty good! What woods are these?


----------



## José Herring

Mike T said:


> Don't sweat it. You already own this flute.


Now I'm curious because I've only been able to get through about 1/10th of my libraries atm.


----------



## CT

José Herring said:


> Now I'm curious because I've only been able to get through about 1/10th of my libraries atm.



Haha sorry man, it's the BBC flute.


----------



## José Herring

Mike T said:


> Haha sorry man, it's the BBC flute.


Would have never suspected that BBCSO could do that. 

Btw, do you have core or Pro? I was leaning against getting Pro but I find the baked in room in core to verge on the ridiculously too large. It's the first library I've owned where I felt the need to use close mics.


----------



## José Herring

I like music said:


> So this is quite literally Mozarteum, position 2, mixed mic, no other reverb or EQ etc. Let me know if you want it tweaking in any way. I'm sure I only got 30% out of it - still need to get to grips with the new instruments (especially the transitions as they are definitely different tonally and there's a trick to them I haven't yet twigged)



So soft that at first I thought it was the flute playing this solo. Only upon turning it up could I tell it's the english horn. Why so soft?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Mike T said:


> Haha sorry man, it's the BBC flute.



Tonally, this and the IW version sound like two totally different instruments (even instrument families). There's something about the sweetness of the BBCSO one I think I prefer.

Might I ask how long it took you to program that (even with the base MIDI file)? Well done!


----------



## CT

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Might I ask how long it took you to program that (even with the base MIDI file)? Well done!



Like a minute or two. Just had to bump the tempo up. The programming is thanks to whoever did the original MIDI file... and without all the usual junk CC information MIDI files usually are riddled with!


----------



## Zanshin

Mike T said:


> Like a minute or two. Just had to bump the tempo up. The programming is thanks to whoever did the original MIDI file... and without all the usual junk CC information MIDI files usually are riddled with!



Beware, Mike T has the magic touch, he could make a food processor sing


----------



## CT

José Herring said:


> Btw, do you have core or Pro? I was leaning against getting Pro but I find the baked in room in core to verge on the ridiculously too large. It's the first library I've owned where I felt the need to use close mics.



I have Pro. Crazy thing is last night I actually moved all the mics except Mix 1 off my drive. I've spent months messing with different combinations but ultimately that mix by Jake is pretty damn good for what I'm after. For my taste it's actually just a bit *too* present, if anything. And as I'm still on an ancient computer, I need to preserve storage space and also I value being able to just run a single mic for everything.

I'm sure though that you could get a less roomy sound. The close and mid mics are great, and leaning mostly on them with some tree in the background to hold it together might be more your speed.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> I've seen the early criticisms of the new woodwinds. Guys, after dropping both updates into that old demo I made with the "wild" writing, I don't share any of those criticisms (though to be fair I haven't used the new saxes yet). For the first time, all brass and woodwinds are Infinite. Practically out of the box. I didn't need anything else.
> 
> This demo should show off Infinite's tone, about 80% of its writing capabilities, and about 60% of its instruments All standard orchestral instruments are covered except the piccolo and contrabassoon. Maybe I'll work them into a future version of this demo.
> 
> When it's done I hope it can be a comprehensive and extensive look at the library's capabilites, all within about 5 minutes of music. It's still a WIP, but after about 5 hours of work yesterday, I think it's still listenable.
> 
> Strings & Percussion:
> - Hollywood Strings
> - Hollywood Percussion
> - Hollywood Solo Harp
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 2 Euphoniums
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 1 Oboe
> 1 English Horn
> 2 Clarinets
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet



Superb! Loved the writing here!!!


----------



## John R Wilson

Mike T said:


> Like a minute or two. Just had to bump the tempo up. The programming is thanks to whoever did the original MIDI file... and without all the usual junk CC information MIDI files usually are riddled with!



What articulations did you use for it?


----------



## CT

John R Wilson said:


> What articulations did you use for it?



Just the default flute performance legato.


----------



## John R Wilson

Mike T said:


> Just the default flute performance legato.



Sounds great. I do really like the BBCSO woodwinds!


----------



## Scamper

I like music said:


> So this is quite literally Mozarteum, position 2, mixed mic, no other reverb or EQ etc. Let me know if you want it tweaking in any way. I'm sure I only got 30% out of it - still need to get to grips with the new instruments (especially the transitions as they are definitely different tonally and there's a trick to them I haven't yet twigged)




Thanks, very helpful. The english horn sounds pretty good so far.
If you don't mind or for other demos, I'd rather like to hear the drier Bersa Hall, more dynamics and a higher output level to get a better impression of the sound. 


Otherwise, I found this small demo showing the saxes:


----------



## Nando Florestan

Saxer said:


> What's the dryest signal you can get out of it? Is it the close mic in the studio room? Or is it possible to get a signal with no convolution at all?
> 
> I'm not asking because I don't like the rooms. But sometimes it's interesting to try own settings.



It is possible to get the plain recording but it is so dry that I gave that up as soon as I heard it. Not sure if anything important would be missing even if you could remedy the poor quality of it. But the close studio mike is dry enough for most purposes. In some cases I am using that and then adding Valhalla Room.


----------



## unclecheeks

Nando Florestan said:


> It is possible to get the plain recording but it is so dry that I gave that up as soon as I heard it. Not sure if anything important would be missing even if you could remedy the poor quality of it. But the close studio mike is dry enough for most purposes. In some cases I am using that and then adding Valhalla Room.



I don't own either of the Infinites (yet), but my understanding is that there is only 1 mic, and all the other distance/room settings are simulated via convolution reverb, etc. I think the advantage of turning off the reverb processing is to save on CPU usage. That way you don't have an instance of a convo reverb running per instrument, just 1 (or more) reverbs as a send globally.

Out of curiosity, how much does the CPU drop if you disable the integrated Kontakt verbs?


----------



## Nando Florestan

unclecheeks said:


> I don't own either of the Infinites (yet), but my understanding is that there is only 1 mic, and all the other distance/room settings are simulated via convolution reverb, etc. I think the advantage of turning off the reverb processing is to save on CPU usage. That way you don't have an instance of a convo reverb running per instrument, just 1 (or more) reverbs as a send globally.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how much does the CPU drop if you disable the integrated Kontakt verbs?



Okay, where I said mike, I am sorry, I meant the studio impulse response. I don't know how much the CPU drops because the sound was so dry as to be unusable. One can go crazy trying to put that in a room, it's too hard. But if you are worried about CPU, don't. There are 5 distance presets for each room, and these use only one convolution, so they are very light on the CPU, while giving a full solution. This aspect is genius, and one of the major reasons I like Infinite.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Here's a simple composition of mine.


Strings almost alone in the first minute, then the new instruments start to appear.

All the brass is *Infinite Brass 1.5*. This is now becoming my go-to, however the horn needs to lose that prooloo that happens on many attacks, which was worse in 1.4, but still persists. Also, the Sample Modeling horn sings with affection much more easily for me, it's like this one wants to be epic only.

I found extremely useful the advice given in this thread by other users -- to avoid going over 100 in trumpet dynamics.

The following instruments are *Infinite Woodwinds 2.0*: Piccolo, flute, bass clarinet, second bassoon. The bass clarinet has a bit of that free Proximity plugin so it sounds more distant. The previous version needed this plugin (or a similar solution) in many instruments, but this situation has improved.

The oboe is generally Infinite, however I wanted the honking quality of the low B, so I used a sample library that delivers that: CineWinds. Just on that note. I think the Infinite oboe is artificially civilized in the bottom third.

The flutes are really good now, to the point that I might not even bother with CineWinds for them anymore.

I wanted to see if the Cine and Infinite bassoons could play together. They can.

The english horn sometimes is Infinite, sometimes CineWinds. I find the sound of CineWinds generally more interesting and beautiful, but it's one of those libraries that misbehave, cannot play fast, and is full of legato transitions and release samples that are way too loud to be believable. The UI would seem to offer all the tools to mitigate these problems, yet somehow they persist even at extreme settings. The samples of CineWinds are beautiful, but the programming is a nightmare.

The clarinet also alternates between Infinite and CineWinds. The timbre is very different between them. Again, the CineWinds timbre is more beautiful and classical, but the Infinite timbre is okayish and the programming is unparalleled. I wish there was a way to change that sound without killing it, but I seriously doubt it.

I was sorry to see there seems to be no glide anymore in the clarinet, even if it did not sound that great in the previous version.

Before anyone asks: if you are torn between CineSamples and Infinite, get Infinite. The sound might not be perfect today but that has been improving for 2 years now, and the upgrades are free. No DRM, you can go into the instrument and change things yourself if you know how to do it.


----------



## shawnsingh

I had never tried IW before. Bought it yesterday. Downloaded earlier today. Played with it for an hour just now. Tried most of the more common orchestra-setting instruments. Used main-mic only on studio IR to hear more detail of the scripting and performing itself.

Conclusion - at least for me personally - *this is pure gold !!!!*

With the infinite series, I catch myself grinning and thinking, what an amazing time to be making orchestral music with virtual instruments. It really is such a big difference to use these instruments versus the articulation switching paradigm. And the bespoke IRs on bone-dry libraries is really a great strategic choice that pays off.

Oh I do have plenty of minor nitpicks, but most of those nitpicks I have to admit I'm not even sure my view is "more realistic" than what the library does already. But the magic is that there's no obvious dealbreakers for accomplishing 99% of what I would be interested in doing with woodwinds. My performance skills are abysmal, so for me, if it seems like I can work around it with MIDI editing, that still counts for me.

Molto Bellissimo!!!

Congrats and thanks again Aaron!


----------



## Kent

Nando Florestan said:


> Here's a simple composition of mine.
> 
> 
> Strings almost alone in the first minute, then the new instruments start to appear.
> 
> All the brass is *Infinite Brass 1.5*. This is now becoming my go-to, however the horn needs to lose that prooloo that happens on many attacks, which was worse in 1.4, but still persists. Also, the Sample Modeling horn sings with affection much more easily for me, it's like this one wants to be epic only.
> 
> I found extremely useful the advice given in this thread by other users -- to avoid going over 100 in trumpet dynamics.
> 
> The following instruments are Infinite Woodwinds 2.0: Piccolo, flute, bass clarinet, second bassoon. The bass clarinet has a bit of that free Proximity plugin so it sounds more distant. The previous version needed this plugin (or a similar solution) in many instruments, but this situation has improved.
> 
> The oboe is generally Infinite, however I wanted the honking quality of the low B, so I used a sample library that delivers that: CineWinds. Just on that note. I think the Infinite oboe is artificially civilized in the bottom third.
> 
> The flutes are really good now, to the point that I might not even bother with CineWinds for them anymore.
> 
> I wanted to see if the Cine and Infinite bassoons could sound close to each other. They can.
> 
> The english horn sometimes is Infinite, sometimes CineWinds. I find the sound of CineWinds generally more interesting and beautiful, but it's one of those libraries that misbehave, cannot play fast, and is full of legato transitions and release samples that are way too loud to be believable. The UI would seem to offer all the tools to mitigate these problems, yet somehow they persist even at extreme settings. The samples of CineWinds are beautiful, but the programming is a nightmare.
> 
> The clarinet also alternates between Infinite and CineWinds. The timbre is very different between them. Again, the CineWinds timbre is more beautiful and classical, but the Infinite timbre is okayish and the programming is unparalleled. I wish there was a way to change that sound without killing it, but I seriously doubt it.
> 
> I was sorry to see there seems to be no glide anymore in the clarinet, even if it did not sound that great in the previous version.
> 
> Before anyone asks: if you are torn between CineSamples and Infinite, get Infinite. The sound might not be perfect today but that has been improving for 2 years now, and the upgrades are free. No DRM, you can go into the instrument and change things yourself if you know how to do it.



Change the clarinet legato amount to a lower number. It’s disabled by default but still there


----------



## El Buhdai

I was just thinking about this yesterday when Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 launched, but if you're like me and you keep older versions of the libraries, your ensemble sizes just doubled with these updates.






The tone changes are different enough that if you still like the way the older instruments sound, you now have 8+ trumpets, 12+ french horns (18 since I still like the 1.3.1 horns), 6 tenor trombones, etc. And you get it all for free.

That's even more added value on top of the fact that we have better sounding, agile woodwinds and brass for the low price of 0 dollars/euros.

Now, all we need is an Infinite Brass 1.4 + 1.5 demo that uses all of the instruments from both versions with transposing and everything to create one brass mega-section. The sound would be massive!

P.S.: To non-owners of the library, it's not expensive to keep old versions either since both libraries are under 15 gb each. My entire Aaron Venture folder of libraries is only 57 gigabytes, and that's for 3 versions of IB and two versions of IW, while standard libraries can often take up double or triple the storage space for one section of the orchestra.


----------



## Zanshin

El Buhdai said:


> P.S.: To non-owners of the library, it's not expensive to keep old versions either since both libraries are under 15 gb each. My entire Aaron Venture folder of libraries is only 57 gigabytes, and that's for 3 versions of IB and two versions of IW, while standard libraries can often take up double or triple the storage space for one section of the orchestra.



While this is good for early adopters, I bought the bundle this morning and don't have access to the prior versions.  

It's all good.


----------



## CT

John R Wilson said:


> Sounds great. I do really like the BBCSO woodwinds!



Yeah, they are really quite nice and those with performance legatos are especially playable. I even like using my breath controller with them. Often that feels unwieldy with conventional samples, but I like how BBCSO handles it.


----------



## Laptoprabbit

kmaster said:


> Does anybody else find IW very susceptible to hanging/stuck notes?



Yup, I'm getting this issue too. Pretty rare though


Mike T said:


> Yeah, they are really quite nice and those with performance legatos are especially playable. I even like using my breath controller with them. Often that feels unwieldy with conventional samples, but I like how BBCSO handles it.


Yup IW 2.0 was good enough to replace some of my BBC woodwinds -- except flutes with the performance legato, closer but not quite there yet


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Laptoprabbit said:


> Yup, I'm getting this issue too. Pretty rare though
> 
> Yup IW 2.0 was good enough to replace some of my BBC woodwinds -- except flutes with the performance legato, closer but not quite there yet



Do you have some examples of BBCSO woodwinds and then after you’ve replaced them with IW? Would love to listen to the comparison!


----------



## Laptoprabbit

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Do you have some examples of BBCSO woodwinds and then after you’ve replaced them with IW? Would love to listen to the comparison!


None for a full project sadly, I've just done it on an empty template


----------



## Sean J

About the Harry Potter comparison...

BBC Flute = not bad, but a bit like clean recordings compiled. Very clean.
IW 2.0 Flute = Airy in a way that feels like the original recording, making it come alive.
SSW = my preferred flute until IW 2.0. It's more airy, but I prefer IW 2.0 now, agility AND tone.

When you play the flute WITH the original recording, and A/B, fade in and out... it's just idiotic to even think I'd ever want another library. I'm not hating on people's preferences. I'm just saying that Infinite is enough for me personally to trash the rest. I mean, I already did for many instruments, but I can't get enough of the flute honestly. It makes up for the last 20 years of dealing with a variety of other developers messes. Human, not blaming or hating, it's understandable. But Aaron has set the bar for me.


----------



## CT

Yes, I found that a little EQ and reverb brought the BBC flute very close (over a crudely looped bit of the flute-less portion of the real recording).


----------



## DANIELE

Zanshin said:


> While this is good for early adopters, I bought the bundle this morning and don't have access to the prior versions.
> 
> It's all good.



Try to ask Aaron and maybe he could provide you the old versions. I have all of them, I bought 1.0 for both the libraries.


----------



## Jamus

I'm really hoping IS has something that no library I know of has, which is pizzicato damping/release simulation. This is something that I want the most when doing Tchaikovsky mockups from the Nutcracker where the basses essentially do some walking. The mud, oh the mud 😭


----------



## hayvel

Sean J said:


> About the Harry Potter comparison...
> 
> BBC Flute = not bad, but a bit like clean recordings compiled. Very clean.
> IW 2.0 Flute = Airy in a way that feels like the original recording, making it come alive.
> SSW = my preferred flute until IW 2.0. It's more airy, but I prefer IW 2.0 now, agility AND tone.
> 
> When you play the flute WITH the original recording, and A/B, fade in and out... it's just idiotic to even think I'd ever want another library. I'm not hating on people's preferences. I'm just saying that Infinite is enough for me personally to trash the rest. I mean, I already did for many instruments, but I can't get enough of the flute honestly. It makes up for the last 20 years of dealing with a variety of other developers messes. Human, not blaming or hating, it's understandable. But Aaron has set the bar for me.



Hey Sean, may I ask you if you would point me to the comparison examples? Somehow I have trouble to find them in this thread or via the search function, and I would love to hear this. Or did I get something wrong here? 

I am looking for a woodwind upgrade right now and I am somewhat torn between the VSL Synchronized and Aaron's Infinite Woodwinds. I really love the philosophy behind Aaron's products and the possibility for building individual sections seems like a nice bonus, but it comes at a higher price. I find it hard to judge the tonal qualities from the videos and examples I could find for version 2.0.


----------



## Erik

Hi,

For your interest 4x a fragment of the same piece with 3 different "mic-settings" + 1 extra (studio with external verb). Ginastera: Danza de la moza donosa in an own arrangement for wind quintet (originally for piano).

Used Flute1, Oboe1, Clarinet1, Horn1 and Bassoon1.

Personally I don't have such a problem with the (thin?) oboe, there are so many different manufacturers worldwide and internationally styles of playing and reeds. I just like this one as it is.

Anyway, I hope you'll enjoy enjoy this nice danza/cancion.


----------



## Kent

Erik said:


> Hi,
> 
> For your interest 4x a fragment of the same piece with 3 different "mic-settings" + 1 extra (studio with external verb). Ginastera: Danza de la moza donosa in an own arrangement for wind quintet (originally for piano).
> 
> Used Flute1, Oboe1, Clarinet1, Horn1 and Bassoon1.
> 
> Personally I don't have such a problem with the (thin?) oboe, there are so many different manufacturers worldwide and internationally styles of playing and reeds. I just like this one as it is.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you'll enjoy enjoy this nice danza/cancion.


Thanks for the comparison. Bersa is so clear and 3D!


----------



## Piotrek K.

hayvel said:


> I am somewhat torn between the VSL Synchronized and Aaron's Infinite Woodwinds



I'm on a similar boat but not soundwise (because what I've heard here is at times stunning) but workflow wise. I'm not a keyswitch fan but with BRSO articulate in FL I can easily create multiarticulation instruments and forget about any switches. So I'm afraid that this performance based approach will be too demanding for me performance wise. If there were possibility to download one demo instrument (for a fee) to check if the workflow is for me that would be awesome.


----------



## Montisquirrel

Are all instruments cohesive in volume? For example, when I build a template with the Woodwinds and use the in-build seating options, are the volumes from each instument matching to eacht other or do i need to adjust it by myself? Would like to know it about a single library but also about working with the woods and brasses together. 

I ask, because I often find it difficult to build a beliveable orchestral template. In some libraries with various instruments, but from one developer, the volumes of the single instruments are all over the place and thats very annoying. What about the Infinite Series? 

What is looks like is that I just pick a instrument, use the in-build seating system to place it and I am ready to go. With Infinite Strings and Percussion within this same system, all my mixing struggles could be gone.... or am I wrong?


----------



## Batrawi

ansthenia said:


> I still can't stop hitting F5, the motion is burned into my brain. Go on without me guys, enjoy 2.0!


@ansthenia while you're still at it and since Aaron is already done with the IB&IW updates, please keep hitting F5 for us in case anything pops up about the strings. (it's only less than 3 months till end of the year/release of IS, so we believe YOU CAN DO IT)


----------



## I like music

Montisquirrel said:


> Are all instruments cohesive in volume? For example, when I build a template with the Woodwinds and use the in-build seating options, are the volumes from each instument matching to eacht other or do i need to adjust it by myself? Would like to know it about a single library but also about working with the woods and brasses together.
> 
> I ask, because I often find it difficult to build a beliveable orchestral template. In some libraries with various instruments, but from one developer, the volumes of the single instruments are all over the place and thats very annoying. What about the Infinite Series?
> 
> What is looks like is that I just pick a instrument, use the in-build seating system to place it and I am ready to go. With Infinite Strings and Percussion within this same system, all my mixing struggles could be gone.... or am I wrong?



I found them to be internally consistent. However, I don't know _quite enough_ about an orchestra to say if the volumes are exactly right. Bassoon I do turn down just a bit because it has a lot of presence.

As for woods vs brass, I actually have the woods about 8db quieter than brass in an orchestra context. But as I hear it, if you move the instruments back and forth in their seats within the GUI, the volume is affected.

Very consistent, no sudden loud or quiet bits, so once you've set it all up, its good to go. I know a couple of other people here have their woods louder than mine, but for my ET mockup (I'll post it with the new woodwinds in a couple of hours) I had a difference of 8db between brass and woods and that a felt quite well balanced.


----------



## Montisquirrel

I like music said:


> I found them to be internally consistent. However, I don't know _quite enough_ about an orchestra to say if the volumes are exactly right. Bassoon I do turn down just a bit because it has a lot of presence.
> 
> As for woods vs brass, I actually have the woods about 8db quieter than brass in an orchestra context. But as I hear it, if you move the instruments back and forth in their seats within the GUI, the volume is affected.
> 
> Very consistent, no sudden loud or quiet bits, so once you've set it all up, its good to go. I know a couple of other people here have their woods louder than mine, but for my ET mockup (I'll post it with the new woodwinds in a couple of hours) I had a difference of 8db between brass and woods and that a felt quite well balanced.



Thanks for your answer. I am fine with changing the overall volume of the library for my needs. But at least I can choose the same amount for each instrument and dont have to find a perfect adjustment for very single instrument and every single articulation, is that what you mean?


----------



## hayvel

Erik said:


> Hi,
> 
> For your interest 4x a fragment of the same piece with 3 different "mic-settings" + 1 extra (studio with external verb). Ginastera: Danza de la moza donosa in an own arrangement for wind quintet (originally for piano).
> 
> Used Flute1, Oboe1, Clarinet1, Horn1 and Bassoon1.
> 
> Personally I don't have such a problem with the (thin?) oboe, there are so many different manufacturers worldwide and internationally styles of playing and reeds. I just like this one as it is.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you'll enjoy enjoy this nice danza/cancion.



Thank you for this comparison, sounds very nice. I really like the Bersa configuration here, to my ears it has a good balance between clarity and room impression.


----------



## Erik

I also had some time to have 2.0 in a Mozart flute concerto cadenza.
Only Bersa setting, but now with flutes 1,2 and 3. 
FYI I hope.


----------



## I like music

Montisquirrel said:


> Thanks for your answer. I am fine with changing the overall volume of the library for my needs. But at least I can choose the same amount for each instrument and dont have to find a perfect adjustment for very single instrument and every single articulation, is that what you mean?


Correct. Since there are no 'articulations' so to speak, once you've set your instrument volumes, you're good to go.


----------



## Kent

I'm surprised @doctoremmet hasn't weighed in yet!


----------



## Jamus

I like music said:


> Correct. Since there are no 'articulations' so to speak, once you've set your instrument volumes, you're good to go.



Ladies and gentlemen, this is why we choose Infinite!


----------



## Nando Florestan

Piotrek K. said:


> I'm on a similar boat but not soundwise (because what I've heard here is at times stunning) but workflow wise. I'm not a keyswitch fan but with BRSO articulate in FL I can easily create multiarticulation instruments and forget about any switches. So I'm afraid that this performance based approach will be too demanding for me performance wise. If there were possibility to download one demo instrument (for a fee) to check if the workflow is for me that would be awesome.



Anything you can do with keyswitches you can do with CCs. The reverse is not true because keyswitches are flags, they are either on or off. Do not choose your instrument based on one MIDI tool, find out about more MIDI tools.


----------



## I like music

This is NOT yet complete, but I redid my ET mockup through the new instruments. It turns out that there are still a lot of changes to make. Placing SM strings is still very difficult, but for those who care, you can hear how John Williams sounds through a version of IB and IW.

- I need to redo a lot of attacks + legato transitions since both brass and winds now handle them differently
- I removed ALL pitch bend data since new IB is much more sensitive to it, and redoing it would take me days. So the ensembles here are very much copy pasted.
- SM strings still need tone and placement work
- Orchestral balance now has to be redone since new rooms change the whole dynamic between the sections.

Anyways, somewhat indicative of how it should sound.

EDIT: what on earth does Soundcloud do to music? Do they apply some kind of EQ or something? I'm sure the balances in this version are different to what comes out of my music machine ...


----------



## DeCaffinated

I like music said:


> EDIT: what on earth does Soundcloud do to music? Do they apply some kind of EQ or something? I'm sure the balances in this version are different to what comes out of my music machine ...



SoundCloud's compression algorithm is one of the worst around: weird balancing issues, watery percussion, and more. The best solution I've found is just to leave a decent amount of headspace in your master and crank the volume up on playback.

My quick and dirty trick is just to take my final master and de-amplify by about -3.5 dB in Audacity. It's not perfect but it usually does the job.


----------



## I like music

DeCaffinated said:


> SoundCloud's compression algorithm is one of the worst around: weird balancing issues, watery percussion, and more. The best solution I've found is just to leave a decent amount of headspace in your master and crank the volume up on playback.
> 
> My quick and dirty trick is just to take my final master and de-amplify by about -3.5 dB in Audacity. It's not perfect but it usually does the job.



Had no idea! Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## CT

hayvel said:


> Hey Sean, may I ask you if you would point me to the comparison examples? Somehow I have trouble to find them in this thread or via the search function, and I would love to hear this. Or did I get something wrong here?



He is referring to my posts on the last few pages, #2,716 and #2,749. It's simply the MIDI used for the Infinite Woodwinds flute dropped on to the BBCSO flute. This is never a good way to utilize a virtual instrument, but I think it presents an interesting tonal contrast at the very least.

His original was posted in the other official thread.


----------



## Sean J

hayvel said:


> Hey Sean, may I ask you if you would point me to the comparison examples?



Infinite Woodwind 2.0 - Flute 1 (it's also attached)



This post has the BBCSO demo by Mike T (using my MIDI file without editing it)
SSW I didn't do for this demo. I just made the remark in general. I like SSW's flute, but IW more.

I used VSL's flute on one of my first short films. Spitfire came out around the same time I was recording a flautist to replace the mock-up. Anyone who plays knows how vastly different samples really are, but I instantly noticed how much closer Spitfire was to the woman I recorded. Spitfire has never been 100% for me due to wonky inconsistencies (legato issues, sampling inconsistencies, and limits of hodge-podging techniques together, stac, tenuto, portato... to get a closer result), and agility of general playback has lacked. They record slow and hard attacks and that's it. Sometimes they just use slow attacks and start out later in the attack when you play harder. It's all very faked and noticeable.

Harry Potter...

I attached the MP3 so you all can put that MP3 next to the original recording. Match the volume of the flutes, then A/B them, play them at the same time, just listen. My note lengths aren't always exact, but generally they sound similar enough that I really can't imagine any other sample library ever coming that close.

I can't stress this enough. A/B/ the mp3 with the original recording. Really. It will floor you.


----------



## hayvel

Sean J said:


> Infinite Woodwind 2.0 - Flute 1 (it's also attached)
> 
> 
> 
> This post has the BBCSO demo by Mike T (using my MIDI file without editing it)
> SSW I didn't do for this demo. I just made the remark in general. I like SSW's flute, but IW more.
> 
> I used VSL's flute on one of my first short films. Spitfire came out around the same time I was recording a flautist to replace the mock-up. Anyone who plays knows how vastly different samples really are, but I instantly noticed how much closer Spitfire was to the woman I recorded. Spitfire has never been 100% for me due to wonky inconsistencies (legato issues, sampling inconsistencies, and limits of hodge-podging techniques together, stac, tenuto, portato... to get a closer result), and agility of general playback has lacked. They record slow and hard attacks and that's it. Sometimes they just use slow attacks and start out later in the attack when you play harder. It's all very faked and noticeable.
> 
> Harry Potter...
> 
> I attached the MP3 so you all can put that MP3 next to the original recording. Match the volume of the flutes, then A/B them, play them at the same time, just listen. My note lengths aren't always exact, but generally they sound similar enough that I really can't imagine any other sample library ever coming that close.
> 
> I can't stress this enough. A/B/ the mp3 with the original recording. Really. It will floor you.



Thank you for taking the time Sean, really appreciated and helpful in my process. This sounds fabulous in every way and I will follow your advice regarding the A/B-Test against the original.

I can also relate to your attitude regarding inconsistencies, and have ruled out some contenders for this reason alone. It is precisely the reported quality, playability and overall customer treatment that put IW on the top of my list. What an achievement for Aaron to have reached this reputation.


----------



## Sean J

hayvel said:


> I can also relate to your attitude regarding inconsistencies, and have ruled out some contenders for this reason alone.



Right, the earlier question about volumes is another key thing I really enjoy about Infinite.

Spitfire doesn't just have a volume problem between articulations. Sometimes I've boosted the volume of a single velocity just cause it's the only way to make it realistic and convincing. I don't care what idealists say about that. If it sounds better and more convincing, then who cares? Except... that it's a hassle. The more I've had to do that, pick and choose articulations, time stretch a staccato to be able to do a fast passage correctly where staccatissimo doesn't sound right (if they've even sampled Staccatissimo for the instrument, which they've been inconsistent about)... and the Spitfire Trombone solo doesn't even have legato!?!?!? Spitfire is great. It really is. Most libraries have great things.

It's just the hodge-podging in libraries that bothers me most in each of them. Infinite has had improvements from day one until today and will keep improving... but hodge-podging is at very least a thing of the past, which is really nice.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Am I crazy or do Infinite horns v1.5 need to be tuned up by 0.02? (2 cents)

This number is not exact, I did not measure anything, I am just trying to get it to work pretty with other sounds... 

I understand that short notes are expected to occasionally sound out of tune if the Attack Accuracy knob is not at 100% -- that's not it...

I seem to remember someone else in this thread had a tuning issue, I think it was the horn...

*EDIT: Nothing wrong with the tuning. *The issue was in the other instrument I was using.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sean J said:


> Infinite Woodwind 2.0 - Flute 1 (it's also attached)
> 
> 
> 
> This post has the BBCSO demo by Mike T (using my MIDI file without editing it)
> SSW I didn't do for this demo. I just made the remark in general. I like SSW's flute, but IW more.
> 
> I used VSL's flute on one of my first short films. Spitfire came out around the same time I was recording a flautist to replace the mock-up. Anyone who plays knows how vastly different samples really are, but I instantly noticed how much closer Spitfire was to the woman I recorded. Spitfire has never been 100% for me due to wonky inconsistencies (legato issues, sampling inconsistencies, and limits of hodge-podging techniques together, stac, tenuto, portato... to get a closer result), and agility of general playback has lacked. They record slow and hard attacks and that's it. Sometimes they just use slow attacks and start out later in the attack when you play harder. It's all very faked and noticeable.
> 
> Harry Potter...
> 
> I attached the MP3 so you all can put that MP3 next to the original recording. Match the volume of the flutes, then A/B them, play them at the same time, just listen. My note lengths aren't always exact, but generally they sound similar enough that I really can't imagine any other sample library ever coming that close.
> 
> I can't stress this enough. A/B/ the mp3 with the original recording. Really. It will floor you.




Certainly from an agility standpoint, there is no match! I think the question is how many of us will write JW-esque woodwind solos  For the more standard fare of lyrical lines or the occasional run / trill, I think IW's agility is not quite as important as tone IMO. In your example, I did think the tone was nice though not as sweet as the recorded tone on the original recording. BBCSO and Berlin and VSL will have very different tones as well so I think it comes down to a matter of taste on that front - with the agility being the gravy on the top IMO (if and when you need to utilize it).

The recent Infinite Brass samples for example have a tone that just does not sound good to me compared to other brass libraries, so doesn't matter how agile they are in terms of my assessment.


----------



## shawnsingh

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Certainly from an agility standpoint, there is no match! I think the question is how many of us will write JW-esque woodwind solos  For the more standard fare of lyrical lines or the occasional run / trill, I think IW's agility is not quite as important as tone IMO. In your example, I did think the tone was nice though not as sweet as the recorded tone on the original recording. BBCSO and Berlin and VSL will have very different tones as well so I think it comes down to a matter of taste on that front - with the agility being the gravy on the top IMO (if and when you need to utilize it).
> 
> The recent Infinite Brass samples for example have a tone that just does not sound good to me compared to other brass libraries, so doesn't matter how agile they are in terms of my assessment.



I think it's not just about agility vs tone. It's about performance controllability, even for lyrical passages. Sculpting attacks, programming your own progressive vibrato that can be timed precisely for the music, having a more continuous spectrum of timbre across dynamic layers rather than phasey xfading between layers, etc. 

As for tone - it's completely fair to love the tone of other libraries more. BUT... between 3 venues, each with 3 mic positions, and the option to add any other panning, EQ, and reverb, there's a lot of options... it will take a lot of effort for anyone to exhaust the possibilities and prove to themselves that they can't get a tone they love out of Infinite, too.


----------



## Sean J

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The recent Infinite Brass samples for example have a tone that just does not sound good to me...



I can understand the brass point, especially after I posted a poll on a Dark Knight mock-up with Infinite and Spitfire. Few preferred either library alone. Most everyone liked both libraries layered together most of all.

But the flute demo? You're out of your mind. A nice guy? Probably. Crazy? Probably. j/k 

I didn't want to post this cause I got the audio off a video (I know, I know). *I do own the soundtrack* and the paper score, but all my files are a bit all over the place right now, different external hard drives, etc. Still, it's worth saying that this flute is on par AT A MINIMUM with the tone of the original. The exact same? Well, no... physics dictates that to be impossible. But...

Compared to Spitfire? No, sorry. Not for me anyway. To each their own.

A/B attached - Infinite and the original. I know Fair Use doesn't allow for much, so I've at least ducked out the original a couple times, panned it, and added Infinite. So it's hardly the same recording anymore, just enough to demonstrate this point.


----------



## Sean J

It's worth saying that Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets was recorded at Lyndhurst. Comparing tone to SSW would be a bit unreasonable based on that. BBC wasn't, but was still done by Spitfire. So I'm sure there's a case to saying that one likes certain mics and certain tones slightly more. But I think at that point we're talking about 2 4K TV's that are nearly equal in every way, with slight differences that the average human being would never notice.

Point is... if they are this close, then I think agility is all that matters. No?

Edit: and "this close" is, well... pretty dang close! lol


----------



## CT

Sean J said:


> But the flute demo? You're out of your mind.



I have hesitated to say so directly, but... I feel the same way, in reverse. Ah well. Of course, everyone's ears will lead them to different solutions. And, I do believe the Infinite Woodwinds will continue to be refined.


----------



## Markrs

One of the things I quickly learned after joining VI-C was that everyone hears something different when we all listen to the same thing. That in part why I am in the agility camp, as tone for me is more subjective.


----------



## Sean J

Mike T said:


> I have hesitated to say so directly, but... I feel the same way, in reverse. Ah well. Of course, everyone's ears will lead them to different solutions. And, I do believe the Infinite Woodwinds will continue to be refined.



Well, in it's own way that just speaks to my point about how we're talking about subtle preferences of composers, which most human beings would never care about.

I like the flute more.
You like it less.
We may like the Trumpet 3 differently.
I like Neumann 103's more than others do.

At the end of the day, as long as the tone is solid all around, then it doesn't matter. My wife and all her friends in the theatre don't care, don't know, couldn't hear it even if they were given A/B's all day long.

The old flute absolutely needed huge improvements. So I agree with the point about refining completely. But there's a difference between a necessary need and user preferences. I think the flute, at this point, is a matter of taste. And with the agility advantage, I honestly feel no need to ever load a Spitfire flute in my template anymore.


----------



## BradHoyt

Sean J said:


> Well, in it's own way that just speaks to my point about how we're talking about subtle preferences of composers, which most human beings would never care about.
> 
> I like the flute more.
> You like it less.
> We may like the Trumpet 3 differently.
> I like Neumann 103's more than others do.
> 
> At the end of the day, as long as the tone is solid all around, then it doesn't matter. My wife and all her friends in the theatre don't care, don't know, couldn't hear it even if they were given A/B's all day long.
> 
> The old flute absolutely needed huge improvements. So I agree with the point about refining completely. But there's a difference between a necessary need and user preferences. I think the flute, at this point, is a matter of taste. And with the agility advantage, I honestly feel no need to ever load a Spitfire flute in my template anymore.



This is my conundrum... Should I get Infinite Woodwinds so I have no need to load a Spitfire (or Orchestral tools?) flute in my template anymore.


----------



## Sean J

BradHoyt said:


> This is my conundrum... Should I get Infinite Woodwinds so I have no need to load a Spitfire (or Orchestral tools?) flute in my template anymore.



Yes. You should.

I've been called a problem solver.

Well, I've been called a problem maker too..... but we won't get into that on here.


----------



## BradHoyt

Sean J said:


> Yes. You should.
> 
> I've been called a problem solver.
> 
> Well, I've been called a problem maker too..... but we won't get into that on here.


You're simultaneously a problem maker and a problem solver.


----------



## El Buhdai

BradHoyt said:


> This is my conundrum... Should I get Infinite Woodwinds so I have no need to load a Spitfire (or Orchestral tools?) flute in my template anymore.



I'd get it. Even if you open it up and find yourself disliking the tone of the flutes, the other instruments are not something I can live without anymore in my template. The writing potential is simply too freeing. 

It finally allows me to bring the crazy ideas in my head to life like the Madness demo I posted a few pages back. Ornaments? No problem. High-interval or short-duration trills? Yawn. Runs? Who cares? Infinite will do it, and finally sound incredibly close to its competitors in tone while doing it.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sean J said:


> I can understand the brass point, especially after I posted a poll on a Dark Knight mock-up with Infinite and Spitfire. Few preferred either library alone. Most everyone liked both libraries layered together most of all.
> 
> But the flute demo? You're out of your mind. A nice guy? Probably. Crazy? Probably. j/k
> 
> I didn't want to post this cause I got the audio off a video (I know, I know). *I do own the soundtrack* and the paper score, but all my files are a bit all over the place right now, different external hard drives, etc. Still, it's worth saying that this flute is on par AT A MINIMUM with the tone of the original. The exact same? Well, no... physics dictates that to be impossible. But...
> 
> Compared to Spitfire? No, sorry. Not for me anyway. To each their own.
> 
> A/B attached - Infinite and the original. I know Fair Use doesn't allow for much, so I've at least ducked out the original a couple times, panned it, and added Infinite. So it's hardly the same recording anymore, just enough to demonstrate this point.



Great comparison! Really a much better way to compare than one recording at a time - you can certainly appreciate the agility...AND the tone  I do think the original still has a sweetness in the upper register that is not there in IW, but that might be the crazy part of me talking 

Regarding agility / performance expressibility though, I will still go back to my point that majority of folks won't be writing these intricate lines and in terms of playability, I would wager majority of folks are also tweaking MIDI after recording (even for IW to get it perfect). So in that sense, not sure there is THAT much workflow difference or time saved compared to other key switch libraries (especially if you have articulation maps) for a large percentage of the lines you would write. And tonally, well there are plenty of discussions here on the virtues of phase-aligned crossfades vs. simulated vibrato vs. recorded dynamic layers etc. All subjective choice.

But I think this really all comes down to what you write and how you work - and then you'll either prefer the very subtle (or not so subtle) tonal differences between libraries and recordings or you'll prefer the potentially large (or not so large) differences in agility based on the lines you write. Either way, very impressive from IW!


----------



## John R Wilson

Sean J said:


> Well, in it's own way that just speaks to my point about how we're talking about subtle preferences of composers, which most human beings would never care about.
> 
> I like the flute more.
> You like it less.
> We may like the Trumpet 3 differently.
> I like Neumann 103's more than others do.
> 
> At the end of the day, as long as the tone is solid all around, then it doesn't matter. My wife and all her friends in the theatre don't care, don't know, couldn't hear it even if they were given A/B's all day long.
> 
> The old flute absolutely needed huge improvements. So I agree with the point about refining completely. But there's a difference between a necessary need and user preferences. I think the flute, at this point, is a matter of taste. And with the agility advantage, I honestly feel no need to ever load a Spitfire flute in my template anymore.



How do you feel about the other instruments in Infinite Brass and Woodwinds beyond the flute. Do the rest of the brass and woods come close enough for you in tone and sound?


----------



## John R Wilson

Sean J said:


> I can understand the brass point, especially after I posted a poll on a Dark Knight mock-up with Infinite and Spitfire. Few preferred either library alone. Most everyone liked both libraries layered together most of all.
> 
> But the flute demo? You're out of your mind. A nice guy? Probably. Crazy? Probably. j/k
> 
> I didn't want to post this cause I got the audio off a video (I know, I know). *I do own the soundtrack* and the paper score, but all my files are a bit all over the place right now, different external hard drives, etc. Still, it's worth saying that this flute is on par AT A MINIMUM with the tone of the original. The exact same? Well, no... physics dictates that to be impossible. But...
> 
> Compared to Spitfire? No, sorry. Not for me anyway. To each their own.
> 
> A/B attached - Infinite and the original. I know Fair Use doesn't allow for much, so I've at least ducked out the original a couple times, panned it, and added Infinite. So it's hardly the same recording anymore, just enough to demonstrate this point.



You can really here the agility of IW in this and I like the tone. Very interesting when comparing it to the actual real recording!! How was the midi created for the IW version? Was it played in? I'm primarily a piano player and play everything in live on a piano so I'm wondering how much these libraries could really benefit me without the need for any key switching. But my one uncertainty is how much the tone and sound compares to things like Spitfire and samples recorded in a real room.


----------



## Kent

Sidebar: I’m really interested to hear how the completely dry Infinite instruments sound in a MIR convolution. Anyone able to demo?


----------



## Jamus

Sean J said:


> Yes. You should.
> 
> I've been called a problem solver.
> 
> Well, I've been called a problem maker too..... but we won't get into that on here.


Could Jesus make a problem so problematic that he himself could not solve it!? 🤔

I'm also in favour of IW over Berlin now. Infinite instruments are just ridiculously easy to load and play. Even if I feel like using other libraries I'm going be using an all Infinite sketch template. The funny thing about the all Infinite sketch template is that it could be the final product if it wanted 😂


----------



## John R Wilson

Jamus said:


> Could Jesus make a problem so problematic that he himself could not solve it!? 🤔
> 
> I'm also in favour of IW over Berlin now. Infinite instruments are just ridiculously easy to load and play. Even if I feel like using other libraries I'm going be using an all Infinite sketch template. The funny thing about the all Infinite sketch template is that it could be the final product if it wanted 😂



Would Infinite Brass + Winds mainly be used as a sketching tool and then still be replaced with other libraries or would it be something used in a final product? So far I am really liking the sound of it! and the demos I've heard all sound great. I'm just not sure I would want it just for sketching out thing for it to then be replaced!! I would want it because of its playability and agility making things sound more real and because of it being so much easy to program in with an ability to play in an actual performances that essentially allows you to play things that are harder to do with sampled libraries using key switching, but does Infinite brass and Winds achieve this level of playability and agility to really mould performances out of it? Can you get much more expressive performances out of this by playing it in live and as a result get more alive sounding parts in comparison to a sampled library with key switching?

Also, the other questionable thing is whether Infinite Brass and Winds sound and tone close enough to something recorded in an actual hall, this is something I'm unsure about and thus would IW and IB just end up getting replaced with other libraries which were recorded with real ensemble sizes and in real halls.


----------



## Sean J

John R Wilson said:


> How do you feel about the other instruments in Infinite Brass and Woodwinds beyond the flute. Do the rest of the brass and woods come close enough for you in tone and sound?



Yes, in every way... with only one exception. The horns don't vary as much as I'd like, like the Cimbassos do. Still great, I just can see improvement. The bassoons, contrabassoon, trumpets, tuba, cimbasso... all are really great. The saxes are 1,000 better than most. The bass flute sounds like most recordings ever have to me, but not like libraries that process the sound. Most bass flute libraries aren't nearly as agile as the real instrument though. VSL isn't bad, but I prefer IW more here. The only stipulation here is that I tend to up the low end of the lower brass more than Aaron does in his demos, and I saturate them a bit with a tape plugin. I generally avoid saturation. It's often crap to me. But sometimes it has a use in brass grit and bringing more out of the tail of the room with reverbs.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> majority of folks won't be writing these intricate lines...



Well, that may be because sample libraries often inhibit people's writing. With Infinite, I've played things in that were expressive enough that it reminded me of a bass clarinet bassoon thing I heard in Raider's. As a player and a composer, I respond to that. I start treating it like a voice, Ker-plunk. WraaaarummmPH!!!! and so on. It comes alive more, which makes for free-style writing.

The alternative of punching a switch, getting a sound, punching a different switch, getting a different sound... is not only less ideal to me, but less conducive to orchestral writing. Maybe most composers today aren't as familiar with the instruments. But the more people writing expressive mock-ups, the more it will challenge others to keep up. So no, not right now. But in time the bar will only raise.



John R Wilson said:


> How was the midi created for the IW version?



I found a midi transcription, corrected notes put in wrong, humanized the times and velocities, and left the library RAW (no processing, etc). I did change the mics a bit and tuned Kontakt down -0.03 to match the recording more, but that was it. Live playback input is already humanized, so you'd be fine method wise. The lack of keyswitching is remarkable, but hopefully you're a good player.  If not you can always edit things in (we all do anyway at times).

As for the tone, I guess we all view that differently. But we (myself included) should all really get away from comparing one library to another. Libraries generally.... suck. The Sacconi cello, Embertone Cello, and VSL's cello... all have been noticed by non-musician friends in my mock-ups until I recorded a cellist playing and everyone said "oh that sounds 10,000x better". Well, there's a reason. Real musicians bring life to our music (go figure). I know we all know that, so I'm not trying to talk down to anyone. Just saying we're probably better off focusing on those comparisons more than libraries. I'd rather listen to a real violinist before a Spitfire violin mock-up any day. Not even Itzhak Perlman. An average college violinist is still 1,000x better than any MIDI mock-up.


----------



## John R Wilson

Sean J said:


> As for the tone, I guess we all view that differently. But we (myself included) should all really get away from comparing one library to another. Libraries generally.... suck. The Sacconi cello, Embertone Cello, and VSL's cello... all have been noticed by non-musician friends in my mock-ups until I recorded a cellist playing and everyone said "oh that sounds 10,000x better". Well, there's a reason. Real musicians bring life to our music (go figure). I know we all know that, so I'm not trying to talk down to anyone. Just saying we're probably better off focusing on those comparisons more than libraries. I'd rather listen to a real violinist before a Spitfire violin mock-up any day. Not even Itzhak Perlman. An average college violinist is still 1,000x better than any MIDI mock-up.



Absolutely, I think no one is going to disagree that a real instrument recording sounds better than any sample library or MIDI mock-ups, No question of that!!

However, does Infinite brass / woodwinds bring a bit more of that life to a part because of its playability and ability to perform parts in without any key switching over other sample libraries using key switching.


----------



## Sean J

John R Wilson said:


> Absolutely, I think no one is going to disagree that a real instrument recording sounds better than any sample library or MIDI mock-ups, No question of that!!
> 
> However, does Infinite brass / woodwinds bring a bit more of that life to a part because of its playability and ability to perform parts in without any key switching at all over other sample libraries using key switching.



Yes absolutely. That's why I like Infinite as much as I do.

The second you play with the trumpet, you get a sense of this ability to bend to whatever you want to write, because the behavior of the instrument adapts to the note length and dynamics you've been playing. So it's nothing like a keyswitch at all in that regard. It's not pre-performed AT ALL, like Spitfire. It's also not super RAW like VSL has long been. I mean, it is... technically. But because it's 100% responsive to playback, nothing comes out RAW at all really. It comes out human. VSL does have chunks of agility, like velocity and speed triggers, but not on nearly as granular a level as Infinite, so it's not the same thing.

I own various libraries (including many full collections) from Spitfire, VSL, Orchestral Tools, CineSamples, 8dio, and who knows how many others. None of them even come close to comparing on this point. I'm not saying they all suck, so Infinite wins. Well..... I'm not NOT saying that either. lol No, I'm just saying that Infinite is agile BECAUSE it's not a keyswitch instrument... so much so that I've sliced apart my favorite string to do something vaguely similar.

Edited (shortened): I've edited my strings to have more instant attacks for notation, spiccato releases, or marc or sustain releases... *but without playing them on top of each other like the Spitfire solo violin does. It's staggered instead.* While playable, it's obvious and cheap to me. So I prefer doing it this way. CC1, 2, 3, and 4 handle xfade and xfade to Tremolo and trill intervals.

Here's an example:










This isn't nearly as robust as Infinite Strings will be, but... after using it I don't even like the default patches from the library anymore. This is simply far more agile, and without any scripting for that matter. I swear some kontakt devs just don't even know Kontakt that well. To be fair, I've only roughly done this and need to edit some of the samples still to make it seamless. But it's definitely more agile, which makes it much more natural to write with, lending to writing in more expressive ways I simply haven't been doing prior. I'm 100% convinced that keyswitches are a handicap and will eventually become a thing of the past. Hopefully that speaks to what you're wondering about with Infinite.

All the more reason why I can't wait for Infinite Strings. My example simply puts everything into a single agile patch, but I'm sure Infinite will be far more flexible in the end than what I've done. The point about how granular Infinite is vs VSL is still very valid, plus mine isn't a legato patch. Just a really really really good sustain, stac, portato/marc, trem, trill all-in-one. Mine is infinite-ish.


----------



## El Buhdai

Sean J said:


> All the more reason why I can't wait for Infinite Strings. My example simply puts everything into a single agile patch, but I'm sure Infinite will be far more flexible in the end than what I've done. The point about how granular Infinite is vs VSL is still very valid, plus mine isn't a legato patch. Just a really really really good sustain, stac, portato/marc, trem, trill all-in-one. Mine is infinite-ish.



I'm so pumped about the tone improvements in Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 that I'm not even looking forward to the strings right now. I'm too busy playing around with the woodwinds with a massive grin on my face to look ahead at any upcoming Infinite products/updates lol.

To be honest though, after the surprisingly night-and-day overhaul we got with IW 2.0, my concerns about the tone of Infinite Strings have faded into a distant memory. Now I'm... cautiously optimistic.

I'm so excited to one day have an entire Infinite Orchestra of any size I want, but for now, all I care about is mastering the new Infinite Woodwinds and bringing my ideas alive. It feels great not having to look forward with these libraries as much. After the fall updates, both of them are in a state that I would be comfortable calling "complete".


----------



## El Buhdai

Even the piccolo sounds good, which is honestly stunning to me because I wasn't sure it was possible for modeled instruments to mimic its piercing, deafening ring at the end of a loud full-octave run.

Despite my doubts prior to this update, it sounds even better than actual recorded piccolo runs I've been using for years. It's got that wonderful blend of clarity and blurriness that I've heard from the piccolo in live concerts. I thought for sure that Hollywood Woodwinds' piccolo runs wouldn't be replaced by Infinite Woodwinds in my template for a long time, but here we are.

@I like music You're our John Williams x Infinite mockup guy. Where's our Harry Potter mockup? You've got the piccolo for it now. 

Warning: I didn't tame the highs on it at all. This is what it sounds like in my master without extra mixing.


----------



## duringtheafter

Nando Florestan said:


> Am I crazy or do Infinite horns v1.5 need to be tuned up by 0.02? (2 cents)
> 
> This number is not exact, I did not measure anything, I am just trying to get it to work pretty with other sounds...
> 
> I understand that short notes are expected to occasionally sound out of tune if the Attack Accuracy knob is not at 100% -- that's not it...
> 
> I seem to remember someone else in this thread had a tuning issue, I think it was the horn...


Anyone else experiencing this?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Interesting comparison here of Infinite Brass 1.4 vs JXL, CSB, and SM. Would love to see something like this for Infinite Woodwinds 2.0.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Even the piccolo sounds good, which is honestly stunning to me because I wasn't sure it was possible for modeled instruments to mimic its piercing, deafening ring at the end of a loud full-octave run.
> 
> Despite my doubts prior to this update, it sounds even better than actual recorded piccolo runs I've been using for years. It's got that wonderful blend of clarity and blurriness that I've heard from the piccolo in live concerts. I thought for sure that Hollywood Woodwinds' piccolo runs wouldn't be replaced by Infinite Woodwinds in my template for a long time, but here we are.
> 
> @I like music You're our John Williams x Infinite mockup guy. Where's our Harry Potter mockup? You've got the piccolo for it now.
> 
> Warning: I didn't tame the highs on it at all. This is what it sounds like in my master without extra mixing.


woah, is that IW piccolo?


----------



## DANIELE

Sean J said:


> Well, that may be because sample libraries often inhibit people's writing. With Infinite, I've played things in that were expressive enough that it reminded me of a bass clarinet bassoon thing I heard in Raider's. As a player and a composer, I respond to that. I start treating it like a voice, Ker-plunk. WraaaarummmPH!!!! and so on. It comes alive more, which makes for free-style writing.
> 
> The alternative of punching a switch, getting a sound, punching a different switch, getting a different sound... is not only less ideal to me, but less conducive to orchestral writing. Maybe most composers today aren't as familiar with the instruments. But the more people writing expressive mock-ups, the more it will challenge others to keep up. So no, not right now. But in time the bar will only raise.



This!! I'm not a professional composer and I've still to come along the way of learing for a long time but I felt very limited with "old" sample libraries, many times I heard things I loved and I wasn't be able to reproduce them with KS.

I lost so much time in programming that sometimes I almost lost the music, I hated to be forced to this. I'm an engineer so I love tweaking but not so much when I'm talking of music.

I remember saying myself "well, I will not do this because my libraries aren't capable of it, let's get back to braaaaaaaaaaam, pooooooooooooooooooooo....piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii etc...." long notes, then some short notes, than some long notes again, let's all the things in between go away.

Now I feel like I have a little treasure on my PC and I cannot be grateful enough. A treasure also because of the continuous development Aaron is bringing to us. I love to keep developing my things so I love also who do the same.

Now I can think about music and I thrown away all the other libraries, I keep doing some modification in my template to adjust the instruments to my taste but I'm doing it because those instruments allow me to do it.


----------



## Sean J

Jamus said:


> Could Jesus make a problem so problematic that he himself could not solve it!? 🤔
> 
> I'm also in favour of IW over Berlin now. Infinite instruments are just ridiculously easy to load and play. Even if I feel like using other libraries I'm going be using an all Infinite sketch template. The funny thing about the all Infinite sketch template is that it could be the final product if it wanted 😂



I forgot to reply to this.

No, and I agree. Sketch to final. Very fluid.



DANIELE said:


> I lost so much time in programming that sometimes I almost lost the music... saying myself "well, I will not do this because my libraries aren't capable of it... Now I can think about music



Exactly. I get second opinions because sometimes I'll write a B theme to fill in what "should be" written, instead of thinking about where the piece really needs to go. Then I realize it's off. I ask for input. A friend said I started meandering. HZ once described some music as grazing cattle, a description I love. It shouldn't be boring. So I go back and get to work. It takes work. If it took 100x more work cause programming MIDI, then our writing is impacted by this. I'm not saying everything in life should be easy, but SOME tasks I value being made easier. The responsiveness of Infinite is instant and fluid, which is critical not only for workflow, but because real instruments are extensions of our bodies. We breathe into them, manipulate them, voice them. I can make a sax yell at you or sweetly romance you.

Keyswitches don't express. They toggle, then we craft an expression as best we can into what's been recalled, which leads to inconsistencies as we toggle new articulations and try to craft them all together. It's very unnatural by comparison.

Sorry if that feels like a very redundant post. I just found this very interesting based on what you said. BECAUSE it's expressive, it allows much more writing possibility, but it also does it with instant responsiveness, which is really good for writing workflow and fatigue. I've found myself often playing with the Infinite trumpet for hours, just fiddling around. Never once have I done that with another library. None of them. Definitely something to be grateful for.

Aaron, can we have Infinite Strings by Black Friday? 

No pressure.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> woah, is that IW piccolo?



Yes, and I _cannot_ believe it. Here's a shot of the MIDI if you're curious.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Yes, and I _cannot_ believe it. Here's a shot of the MIDI if you're curious.



I had tested the piccolo on a lower dynamic in the ET thing and thought it was one of the best sounding woods in the series. I still wanted to test it doing this kind of thing but guess you've done it! And actually it sounds amazing to my ears!

What rooms are you using, and any treatment on this and the brass? Because it sounds much roomier than mine.

EDIT: any chance I can see the trumpet midi too please? No bother if not.


----------



## DANIELE

Sean J said:


> Aaron, can we have Infinite Strings by Black Friday?
> 
> No pressure.



You may ask I Like Music when they came out, he apparently knows everything about them.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> You may ask I Like Music when they came out, he apparently knows everything about them.



Genuine guess is April next year.


----------



## Bluemount Score

El Buhdai said:


> Yes, and I _cannot_ believe it. Here's a shot of the MIDI if you're curious.


Ah, FL Studio. Good choice


----------



## porrasm

How consistent (mainly timings, velocity differences etc.) are these libraries? I use mainly Spitfire and while they sound great they are inconsistent af and I find then really difficult to use. Especially fast passages are super difficult to programs as I usually do everything manually with a mouse.

I wasn’t planning on buying anything in a long time but the Infinite Series looks really interesting.


----------



## Bluemount Score

porrasm said:


> How consistent (mainly timings, velocity differences etc.) are these libraries? I use mainly Spitfire and while they sound great they are inconsistent af and I find then really difficult to use. Especially fast passages are super difficult to programs as I usually do everything manually with a mouse.
> 
> I wasn’t planning on buying anything in a long time but the Infinite Series looks really interesting.


I'm in the same boat as you, but heard people saying here that IS is very consistent across intruments


----------



## I like music

porrasm said:


> How consistent (mainly timings, velocity differences etc.) are these libraries? I use mainly Spitfire and while they sound great they are inconsistent af and I find then really difficult to use. Especially fast passages are super difficult to programs as I usually do everything manually with a mouse.
> 
> I wasn’t planning on buying anything in a long time but the Infinite Series looks really interesting.





Bluemount Score said:


> I'm in the same boat as you, but heard people saying here that IS is very consistent across intruments



As consistent as it gets. Did you see the piccolo passage with MIDI example above? It is precise, but you can vary and humanise it within the GUI, but generally that's not needed since any changes you made will be audible. Since there are no technical dynamic layers (phase aligned) you can plonk a line from one instrument onto another instrument and be able to predict the behaviour with accuracy.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Genuine guess is April next year.



We will see...if the year will change from 2020 to 2021 then your guess is correct. I'm hoping to see the library before christmas but I also think we will see it later.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> We will see...if the year will change from 2020 to 2021 then your guess is correct. I'm hoping to see the library before christmas but I also think we will see it later.



Agreed. Like Aaron has alluded, each library he improves, he learns something from, so I imagine that with this latest release, he'd be implementing those learnings into the strings, and therefore we're likely to get a 1.2 or a 1.5 strings right off the bat. 

And as we know, he doesn't rush things, which we appreciate. So yeah, I expect mid-next year too!


----------



## decredis

I saw somewhere (FAQs on AV site?) that the estimate for IS is either last quarter 2020 or first quarter 2021 so April sounds plausible.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> I saw somewhere (FAQs on AV site?) that the estimate for IS is either last quarter 2020 or first quarter 2021 so April sounds plausible.



Ah, had never seen that. So in that case, would you say even 'likelier' than 2020? I would think so, given COVID, the room-related delays Aaron had to deal with etc. I'm sure that will have cost 3-6 months' worth of development time.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Ah, had never seen that. So in that case, would you say even 'likelier' than 2020? I would think so, given COVID, the room-related delays Aaron had to deal with etc. I'm sure that will have cost 3-6 months' worth of development time.


Yes, I assume the FAQs were updated more recently than the front page estimate, and — understandably given the nature of the work — reality tends to lag slightly behind AV's estimates rather than ahead of them. So slightly after the current pessimistic estimate of first quarter 2021 (ie April, at the earliest) seems most likely to me, in my role as novice student venture-theologian.


----------



## porrasm

I like music said:


> As consistent as it gets. Did you see the piccolo passage with MIDI example above? It is precise, but you can vary and humanise it within the GUI, but generally that's not needed since any changes you made will be audible. Since there are no technical dynamic layers (phase aligned) you can plonk a line from one instrument onto another instrument and be able to predict the behaviour with accuracy.



Sounds really promising. This has definitely piqued my interest and it goes on my wishlist for now. Perhaps I'll get in on my next spending spree...


----------



## I like music

porrasm said:


> Sounds really promising. This has definitely piqued my interest and it goes on my wishlist for now. Perhaps I'll get in on my next spending spree...


I don't have videos recording capabilities but might do a line or two, and share screen shots of anything you'd want to hear


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Agreed. Like Aaron has alluded, each library he improves, he learns something from, so I imagine that with this latest release, he'd be implementing those learnings into the strings, and therefore we're likely to get a 1.2 or a 1.5 strings right off the bat.
> 
> And as we know, he doesn't rush things, which we appreciate. So yeah, I expect mid-next year too!



We will get IS 3.0 for the first release.


----------



## I like music

decredis said:


> novice student venture-theologian


😂


----------



## ScoreFace

I have just had the possibility to test the Brass and Woodwinds and I really love most of it. French Horns are incredibly realistic and so much fun to play with, while I'm not a friend of the trombones yet. Woodwinds sound so good, especially the flutes! Definitely on my wishlist for 2021!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I had tested the piccolo on a lower dynamic in the ET thing and thought it was one of the best sounding woods in the series. I still wanted to test it doing this kind of thing but guess you've done it! And actually it sounds amazing to my ears!
> 
> What rooms are you using, and any treatment on this and the brass? Because it sounds much roomier than mine.
> 
> EDIT: any chance I can see the trumpet midi too please? No bother if not.



Brass and woodwinds are all Mozarteum. As for the roominess in the brass, I can only guess that it comes from the Ozone 8 Elements plugin on Master. Or it could be from the slightly different settings I used on each horn. Some have mixed mic, some are left with default mic settings (mixed mic off). Others are on mixed mic level 3, 4, or 2, etc. Those slight variations did wonders.

For the piccolo though, I did up the ambient mics to about 2 notches from the top. I felt that was necessary to get that delicious blend of blurriness and definition that I love to hear in live piccolo performances with an orchestra.

Here's the MIDI for the trumpet line in that snippet. I can send more if you want. The section with the falls, maybe? 






P.S.: Anyone else have tons and tons of muted experimental phrases in their compositions?


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> I saw somewhere (FAQs on AV site?) that the estimate for IS is either last quarter 2020 or first quarter 2021 so April sounds plausible.



I didn't noticed that before. He talks also about electric strings, as I guessed some time ago he will add them later in an update. It is better to have the core library and then the additions.

I love how he want to build the library, all these strings usable separately one at a time, so many strings will populate my template.


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> I didn't noticed that before. He talks also about electric strings, as I guessed some time ago he will add them later in an update. It is better to have the core library and then the additions.
> 
> I love how he want to build the library, all these strings usable separately one at a time, so many strings will populate my template.


Yeah the plans for the strings do sound amazing.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Some have mixed mic, some don't. Others are on mm level 3, 4, or 2, etc. Those slight variations did wonders.



OK I need to do this. Because I definitely heard the +ve effect this had on the sound! So if you're doing chords, do you snap them all into the same position e.g. mm3 etc but when going to unison, you might throw them into different distances?


El Buhdai said:


> For the piccolo though, I did up the ambient mics to about 2 notches from the top


Interesting. Due to computation limitations, I am limiting myself only to mix mics you see, so wanted to see how I might be able to replicate with just MMs. However, I guess I need to start making exceptions in some cases!

Thanks a million for this. And yes, the trumpet falls were lovely. Would love to see it.


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> Yeah the plans for the strings do sound amazing.



So much freedom and so much possibilities...truly monumental as Aaron said some time ago.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> So much freedom and so much possibilities...truly monumental as Aaron said some time ago.



Can't wait for the choirs ... nah, actually, lets not touch this!

PS has anyone checked about the horns needing re-pitched?


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> OK I need to do this. Because I definitely heard the +ve effect this had on the sound! So if you're doing chords, do you snap them all into the same position e.g. mm3 etc but when going to unison, you might throw them into different distances?



+ve? What does that mean? Also, for your other question, no. All instruments remain in the same position throughout the entire piece. There are some pieces where I steal the first trumpet from the orchestra (Soloist position, mixed mic off to finetune the sound a bit) to use for jazz writing, but I didn't do that here.



I like music said:


> Interesting. Due to computation limitations, I am limiting myself only to mix mics you see, so wanted to see how I might be able to replicate with just MMs. However, I guess I need to start making exceptions in some cases!



Yes, the piccolo is definitely a special case! I generally don't do manual mic tuning with Infinite because of how much I love the sound out of the box. I just use default or a mixed mic position. But given how much I just adore the piccolo as an instrument (I'm a huge John Williams fan, so you can thank him for that), I wanted mine to be just the way I like it. You can definitely replicate horn section depth with mixed mic. That's what I generally do. As for the piccolo, I'm not really sure since the ambience only goes up on mixed mic as the instrument gets further back. Definitely worth an attempt though! Let me know your results.



I like music said:


> Thanks a million for this. And yes, the trumpet falls were lovely. Would love to see it.



Sure thing. If you've got any more phrases or passages from any other timecode feel free to let me know and I'll send an image over. Infinite is so flexible that seeing and hearing the way others do things can really open one's mind. @shawnsingh 's legendary IB 1.4 demo and his advice did that for me.






I'm really proud of the little trick I did for the falls. Not only did I do quick legato runs downward, but I made sure each trumpet patch played a different number of notes at a different speed to make it sound more authentic.

Then I added a different amount of pitch bend (set to CC #59) to each one as they went down. Without that, it didn't sound as natural and sloppy as real falls should. You would always hear a distinct final pitch no matter how short you made the last note. That's not how real falls have ever sounded to my ear. The pitch is often ambiguous as it progresses and nearly impossible to determine by ear on the last note, and pitch bend solves that. Think of it as a sort of "secret sauce" for falls.

Also, using the Incredibles soundtracks as a reference, I made sure to start the pitch bend _before_ the first note of the falls on each trumpet. That way you can hear the trumpets starting to fall out of pitch on its current note before the fall begins.

Add a touch of pitch bend at the start of the note for a bit of dramatic flair and _voila!_ You get this:


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> +ve? What does that mean? Also, for your other question, no. All instruments remain in the same position throughout the entire piece. There are some pieces where I steal the first trumpet from the orchestra (Soloist position, mixed mic off to finetune the sound a bit) to use for jazz writing, but I didn't do that here.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the piccolo is definitely a special case! I generally don't do manual mic tuning with Infinite because of how much I love the sound out of the box. I just use default or a mixed mic position. But given how much I just adore the piccolo as an instrument (I'm a huge John Williams fan, so you can thank him for that), I wanted mine to be just the way I like it. You can definitely replicate horn section depth with mixed mic. That's what I generally do. As for the piccolo, I'm not really sure since the ambience only goes up on mixed mic as the instrument gets further back. Definitely worth an attempt though! Let me know your results.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing. If you've got any more phrases or passages from any other timecode feel free to let me know and I'll send an image over. Infinite is so flexible that seeing and hearing the way others do things can really open one's mind. @shawnsingh 's legendary IB 1.4 demo and his advice did that for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really proud of the little trick I did for the falls. Not only did I do quick legato runs downward, but I made sure each trumpet patch played a different number of notes at a different speed to make it sound more authentic.
> 
> Then I added a different amount of pitch bend (set to CC #59) to each one as they went down. Without that, it didn't sound as natural and sloppy as real falls should. You would always hear a distinct final pitch no matter how short you made the last note. That's not how real falls have ever sounded to my ear. The pitch is often ambiguous as it progresses and nearly impossible to determine by ear on the last note, and pitch bend solves that. Think of it as a sort of "secret sauce" for falls.
> 
> Also, using the Incredibles soundtracks as a reference, I made sure to start the pitch bend _before_ the first note of the falls on each trumpet. That way you can hear the trumpets starting to fall out of pitch on its current note before the fall begins.
> 
> Add a touch of pitch bend at the start of the note for a bit of dramatic flair and _voila!_ You get this:



Amazing info thank you! Any chance you can share the screenshot for the pitch-bend data so I can visualise what you've described, please? I think I get what you're saying and will try it msyelf but seeing it would be incredible.

Yeah, great soundtrack is the incredibles!

OK, interesting to know that you keep your horns at different depths through the piece. Soemthing about that notion makes me feel weird, as if I were doing a triad, it might feel like the horns are sitting in very different places. But I actually haven't tried this so I have no idea if it feels sonically weird. Certainly sounds good in your examples!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Amazing info thank you! Any chance you can share the screenshot for the pitch-bend data so I can visualise what you've described, please? I think I get what you're saying and will try it msyelf but seeing it would be incredible.
> 
> Yeah, great soundtrack is the incredibles!
> 
> OK, interesting to know that you keep your horns at different depths through the piece. Soemthing about that notion makes me feel weird, as if I were doing a triad, it might feel like the horns are sitting in very different places. But I actually haven't tried this so I have no idea if it feels sonically weird. Certainly sounds good in your examples!



The 1st trumpet pitch bend was in the image in the previous message. I have it set to CC# 59. Here are the other two:






I drew a line so you could see what I meant about starting the pitch bend before the first note of the fall.






Make sure each one is slightly different to get that chaotic randomness that you hear in real falls.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> The 1st trumpet pitch bend was in the image in the previous message. I have it set to CC# 59. Here are the other two:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I drew a line so you could see what I meant about starting the pitch bend before the first note of the fall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure each one is slightly different to get that chaotic randomness that you hear in real falls.


Ahhhhh sorry I didn't notice that's what the cc data here was. Excellent! Makes total sense!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Ahhhhh sorry I didn't notice that's what the cc data here was. Excellent! Makes total sense!



One thing I should clarify.. My third trumpet patch is actually two trumpets, so I'm only writing three times instead of four. If you wrote Pitch Bend data _and_ chromatic falls for all 4 trumpets and gave them each dramatically different timings, fall lengths, pitch bend data, and final notes, I think it could sound even better.

Not to mention I don't move CC1 that much at all when the sustained note starts. I'd imagine there's a lot you could do to make these falls sound eerily realistic. A touch of flutter on the attack, subtle growl and vibrato during the sustain, etc. Maybe you can show us in an Incredits 2 mockup someday...


----------



## PerryD

Some random sketching with infinite Brass, Infinite WW and SM Solo & Ensemble Strings. It's really nice to _play_, rather than _assemble_ music.


----------



## porrasm

I like music said:


> I don't have videos recording capabilities but might do a line or two, and share screen shots of anything you'd want to hear


Thanks. I'm interested in hearing what any fast passages (or double/triple tongues) or runs sound like.

Someone posted the Harry Potter flute solo on the infinite woodwinds 2.0 and it sounded really nice.

I checked out the overviews and other videos too. When I have the money to spare for them, I'll get them.


----------



## axb312

Could someone post some emotional oboe and clarinet lines?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Anyone got any clip showing the cimbasso? Haven’t heard it yet and would like to know how the low brass sounds.

also could someone explain the bundle crossgrade on the site? I can only afford to get one of the libraries for now so does that mean I would get some kind of a crossgrade to get the bundle at a later time?


----------



## decredis

NeonMediaKJT said:


> also could someone explain the bundle crossgrade on the site? I can only afford to get one of the libraries for now so does that mean I would get some kind of a crossgrade to get the bundle at a later time?


As I understand it, you'd pay for the bundle price minus what you paid for the first library. Essentially, the position is you'll never lose out as a result of the order in which you buy them (except obviously if you miss a temporary sale price on something).

EDIT: FAQ on this gives the exact position, I think this might be a better position than I thought, like, if you happen to get the first product at a sale price, and buy the bundle at non-sale price, you don't pay non sale bundle minus sale first product, you pay non sale bundle minus non sale first product, so your original discount isn't lost in the crossgrade... https://www.aaronventure.com/faq


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

decredis said:


> As I understand it, you'd pay for the bundle price minus what you paid for the first library. Essentially, the position is you'll never lose out as a result of the order in which you buy them (except obviously if you miss a temporary sale price on something).


Oh that’s great!!


----------



## Erik

kmaster said:


> Sidebar: I’m really interested to hear how the completely dry Infinite instruments sound in a MIR convolution. Anyone able to demo?



All winds _Studio_. MIR: _Synchron _wide, wet/dry: - 30%, no further plugins used.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Erik said:


> All winds _Studio_. MIR: _Synchron _wide, wet/dry: - 30%, no further plugins used.



I think that didn't go very well... Especially the oboe is in 2 rooms at once...

By the way, off topic now, can I share with you some truly great woodwind music?


----------



## lucor

@aaronventure and other Kontakt experts: Is there a way to get a normal sustain pedal behaviour with the Infinite instruments (as in sustain pedal = held note)? I don't really need the legato bypass, but the normal behaviour would make things much easier for me, especially when used with Divisimate.


----------



## Erik

Nando Florestan said:


> I think that didn't go very well... Especially the oboe is in 2 rooms at once...
> 
> By the way, off topic now, can I share with you some truly great woodwind music?



But of course!


----------



## aaronventure

lucor said:


> @aaronventure and other Kontakt experts: Is there a way to get a normal sustain pedal behaviour with the Infinite instruments (as in sustain pedal = held note)? I don't really need the legato bypass, but the normal behaviour would make things much easier for me, especially when used with Divisimate.


Legato Bypass isn't tied to CC64 in any way other than the MIDI mapping in the GUI. You can remove it in two clicks.

While there's no built in support for the CC64 = Sustain, I imagine you could write a multiscript for it. Queue midi note-offs until the pedal is released.


----------



## Kent

Erik said:


> All winds _Studio_. MIR: _Synchron _wide, wet/dry: - 30%, no further plugins used.


Thanks for this—feeding studio into another well-done convo sounds better than I thought it might! However... 

I meant a _completely _dry instrument, as in "going behind the wrench and bypassing all room convolution". In other words, instead of Studio/Bersa/Mozarteum, placement of the bone-dry signal within MIR itself.


----------



## Batrawi

lucor said:


> @aaronventure and other Kontakt experts: Is there a way to get a normal sustain pedal behaviour with the Infinite instruments (as in sustain pedal = held note)? I don't really need the legato bypass, but the normal behaviour would make things much easier for me, especially when used with Divisimate.


I use this script with pretty much everything and it works fine









The Blake Robinson Synthetic Orchestra - Tutorials » Spitfire Audio » The sustain pedal


Synthetic Orchestra. Now up to 736 pieces of music. That's 26 hours, 11 minutes of listening!




www.syntheticorchestra.com


----------



## lucor

Batrawi said:


> I use this script with pretty much everything and it works fine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Blake Robinson Synthetic Orchestra - Tutorials » Spitfire Audio » The sustain pedal
> 
> 
> Synthetic Orchestra. Now up to 736 pieces of music. That's 26 hours, 11 minutes of listening!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.syntheticorchestra.com



Works perfectly, thank you!


----------



## Geocranium

What I'd like to hear is how it handles an agile, exposed piccolo line, like the famous one from the Star Wars opening:




All my current woodwinds offerings seem to either be too sluggish to really pull it off, or just have a lackluster tone/lack of expressiveness when doing a line like this. I feel like IW could tackle something like this.


----------



## aaronventure

Geocranium said:


> What I'd like to hear is how it handles an agile, exposed piccolo line, like the famous one from the Star Wars opening:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All my current woodwinds offerings seem to either be too sluggish to really pull it off, or just have a lackluster tone/lack of expressiveness when doing a line like this. I feel like IW could tackle something like this.


----------



## John R Wilson

Was this played in live?


----------



## John R Wilson

@aaronventure Was that played in live?


----------



## duringtheafter

I'm super excited to purchase IB & IW soon... I'm holding off until I have a real break in work schedule because otherwise I'd neglect my paying job (not a good idea!).

I've realized recently how much I DON'T play in lines right now. I'm a good saxophonist but poor piano player, and I don't compose directly into my DAW. I'm often using music notation first, getting tempi and time signature changes etc. all set, and then importing MIDI into Cubase and tweaking away based on the sound libraries being used in the project.

I'm really intrigued by how folks are talking about the PLAYABILITY of Infinite. I posted a while back asking whether good sound can be achieved by programming MIDI, and all said an emphatic yes!--but I would like to try to get that extra human feel; even if half my notes go in wrong, having the rhythm and performance (velocity, modulation wheel, etc.) will obviously make a big difference.

But how do you handle playing in something from a score rather than a "fresh new idea"? (E.g., an Eb clarinet part played in from a transposed score will sound off vs. the other instruments, and how do you account for time signatures and tempi?) Do you have to preset your tempo map and set MIDI Transformations on each staff that has a transposing instrument to auto-transpose incoming data? I'd never seen that done on any Template Setups, so I'm very curious. I admit a huge blindspot in this area even though I've been sequencing for many, many years.

If this is too far OT, I'd love if someone can point me to other forums and/or any instructional videos that would be helpful.


----------



## aaronventure

John R Wilson said:


> @aaronventure Was that played in live?


Yeah.

It took me way longer to pull up the score and find the solo just to make sure I didn't miss the notes in the run. Turns out I did, so it's 10 seconds to play in the line + a couple more to pull up the MIDI editor and transpose the wrong notes.

That high C in the run got me.


----------



## aaronventure

duringtheafter said:


> but I would like to try to get that extra human feel;


Correcting the pitch is easy. 

*Honestly, you can just play two notes with two fingers to make sure you get your timings right. *

Transposing these notes to correct pitches afterwards will take you seconds in the midi editor, while adjusting timings note-by-note and manually drawing in controller data can take a while. I do this all the time for runs. Half of the Rite of Spring demo would be wrong notes if I hadn't corrected them. Some of the stuff happening there is crazy. So just play in whatever is comfortable and move the notes to correct pitches later. I use WASD in the MIDI editor to move the MIDI notes, I just use the mouse to select them, since moving them with a mouse can snap them to the grid and I don't want that.

It's faster than doing takes over and over again trying to hit the right notes (this isn't a concert, it's just you in your studio), and much faster than manually drawing in the whole thing.


----------



## John R Wilson

aaronventure said:


> Yeah.
> 
> It took me way longer to pull up the score and find the solo just to make sure I didn't miss the notes in the run. Turns out I did, so it's 10 seconds to play in the line + a couple more to pull up the MIDI editor and transpose the wrong notes.
> 
> That high C in the run got me.



Sounds brilliant and that kind of playability is selling it for me!! I am certainly getting more and more interested in picking up both the Brass and Woodwinds.


----------



## Geocranium

Oh my god so uh, I guess I'm gonna go ahead and get this.


----------



## I like music

Geocranium said:


> Oh my god so uh, I guess I'm gonna go ahead and get this.



You won't regret it.


----------



## Sean J

kmaster said:


> Thanks for this—feeding studio into another well-done convo sounds better than I thought it might! However...
> 
> I meant a _completely _dry instrument, as in "going behind the wrench and bypassing all room convolution". In other words, instead of Studio/Bersa/Mozarteum, placement of the bone-dry signal within MIR itself.



Missed the first post. You're just wanting a dry example? I've bypassed each of the convolution FX that contribute to the reverb here. Aaron also uses convolution in other ways, so I didn't disable all of them, just the ones that added roomness.



Sure, it's anechoic, dead, lifeless, too close for comfort, so intimate you can hear the thoughts of the trumpet player, wondering when he'll escape his foam cage... but just remember the first half is Bach, beautiful, and joyously acoustic.


----------



## Kent

Sean J said:


> Missed the first post. You're just wanting a dry example? I've bypassed each of the convolution FX that contribute to the reverb here. Aaron also uses convolution in other ways, so I didn't disable all of them, just the ones that added roomness.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it's anechoic, dead, lifeless, too close for comfort, so intimate you can hear the thoughts of the trumpet player, wondering when he'll escape his foam cage... but just remember the first half is Bach, beautiful, and joyously acoustic.



Not quite—I want to hear a completely dry example (like the second half of your post) spatialized within MIR (which I don't have).


----------



## Sean J

Unless one trusts themselves to convolve well, I'd suggest to most to either use the studio & add to it (not my ideal honestly) or just trust his spaces. You can dig into his posts about convolution on Red Banned if you stalk....... erm.... Google him, as... some people I know who have (not me of course). So do his reverb methods live up to a pretty good space? I think so.

I initially hesitated on the reverb, preferring my own IR's (I've made a few of my own Lyndhurst copycats for various uses) but the rooms and mics offer enough flexibility that I'm very content with them personally. And after reading into how Aaron matches mics (a conclusion I came to on my own just before reading his posts), I trust Aaron as much with reverb than I trust myself with MIR, Altiverb, etc. Anyone who's familiar with VSL knows how hard it can be to get dry to sound good and well placed. Infinite to me is actually better placed than a lot of libraries.

Raider's of the Lost Ark has some of my favorite examples of being able to point to the instrument. The space is great, clear, and not washed out. Infinite, whether you go big or small, is still very directional, where Spitfire is very very wide by default. Constraining the stereo width isn't quite the same thing to me.


----------



## Sean J

kmaster said:


> Not quite—I want to hear a completely dry example (like the second half of your post) spatialize within MIR (which I don't have).



Ah, sorry. I just sold MIR. lol


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Is a walkthrough of 1.5 brass going to be posted featuring the cimbassi?


----------



## Sean J

aaronventure said:


> It took me way longer to pull up the score...



You people are delaying Infinite Strings.

This thread needs to die. RIGHT... NOW!!! lol


----------



## CT

Sean J said:


> Infinite to me is actually better placed than a lot of libraries.



As resident space nitpicker, I agree that this isn't a weakness of these libraries.


----------



## Sean J

Geocranium said:


> Oh my god so uh, I guess I'm gonna go ahead and get this.



You have been assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

Resistance is futile.


----------



## I like music

Sean J said:


> You have been assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.
> 
> Resistance is futile.


That reminds me. Must try the horn flutters from First Contact. I'm sure there's a couple of cues with that articulation.


----------



## duringtheafter

aaronventure said:


> Correcting the pitch is easy.
> 
> *Honestly, you can just play two notes with two fingers to make sure you get your timings right. *
> 
> Transposing these notes to correct pitches afterwards will take you seconds in the midi editor, while adjusting timings note-by-note and manually drawing in controller data can take a while. I do this all the time for runs. Half of the Rite of Spring demo would be wrong notes if I hadn't corrected them. Some of the stuff happening there is crazy. So just play in whatever is comfortable and move the notes to correct pitches later. I use WASD in the MIDI editor to move the MIDI notes, I just use the mouse to select them, since moving them with a mouse can snap them to the grid and I don't want that.
> 
> It's faster than doing takes over and over again trying to hit the right notes (this isn't a concert, it's just you in your studio), and much faster than manually drawing in the whole thing.


Thanks, Aaron. That's a really good point and a nice approach to try. Can't wait to dive in... (Consider this a pre-sale - going to pull the trigger on Saturday!)


----------



## shawnsingh

So I played around a bit with mixes. Main-only studio paired with EWQL Spaces SF Hall FR feels like a good combination to me. I usually remove the predelay on the SF Hall preset, which makes it feel more like a large studio than a concert hall.


----------



## PerryD

Apologies to Mr. Williams...but you shouldn't write such memorable melodies.


----------



## FinGael

I have been interested in these from the day one, but I think I will be soon running out of excuses not to get them. Someone please help.

"Dear me, let me now forget that my composing is mostly based on playing and improvising..."


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> Apologies to Mr. Williams...but you shouldn't write such memorable melodies.



Could you please tell me the first name of this Williams guy please? I want to see if I can find any more of his stuff on Spotify.

Nice work! I'm _really_ enjoying the woodwinds update.


----------



## Max Bonsi

Hi all!
A question about Ensamble: do you use for example 4 separate horns tracks for a chord writing OR use just one patch with the transposition trick?
I know the second one is lighter on resources but I'd like to know soundwise...
thanks!

Max


----------



## I like music

Max Bonsi said:


> Hi all!
> A question about Ensamble: do you use for example 4 separate horns tracks for a chord writing OR use just one patch with the transposition trick?
> I know the second one is lighter on resources but I'd like to know soundwise...
> thanks!
> 
> Max



I always use separate. The reason is that if the lines ever move together or go apart e.g. two lines intersect, then I feel it'd be better to have the variety. 

In either case, each line will be on a separate track, with separate horns.


----------



## Max Bonsi

I like music said:


> I always use separate. The reason is that if the lines ever move together or go apart e.g. two lines intersect, then I feel it'd be better to have the variety.
> 
> In either case, each line will be on a separate track, with separate horns.


Of course man!
I agree and I'll do the same also cause different version of the same instrument bring different nuances on the table
Thank you!


----------



## I like music

Max Bonsi said:


> Of course man!
> I agree and I'll do the same also cause different version of the same instrument bring different nuances on the table
> Thank you!



Aye! Although, that said, it would be interesting to do a test and see if people can tell the difference. I believe that you can probably get away with it, even with experienced musicians, but just using the transposition trick, if saving resources was an issue. @aaronventure in your opinion, would it make a huge difference? Guessing not for chords, but perhaps for unison ensemble lines?


----------



## Erik

kmaster said:


> Thanks for this—feeding studio into another well-done convo sounds better than I thought it might! However...
> 
> I meant a _completely _dry instrument, as in "going behind the wrench and bypassing all room convolution". In other words, instead of Studio/Bersa/Mozarteum, placement of the bone-dry signal within MIR itself.


No problem, but how do I turn off the convo sounds in IW anyway?


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Sean J said:


> Resistance is futile



I initially read that as 'flutile', which would have been excellent.


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> @aaronventure in your opinion, would it make a huge difference? Guessing not for chords, but perhaps for unison ensemble lines?


Transposing up or down by 1 has minimal effects on the tone. By 2 is already noticeable. Compare and see what works for you, but don't forget to move the other ones to different positions.


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Could you please tell me the first name of this Williams guy please? I want to see if I can find any more of his stuff on Spotify.
> 
> Nice work! I'm _really_ enjoying the woodwinds update.


 His name is Johnny Williams, according to the music credits at the end of the "Lost in Space" TV series in the 1960's. I'm not sure if he has done anything since.


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> His name is Johnny Williams, according to the music credits at the end of the "Lost in Space" TV series in the 1960's. I'm not sure if he has done anything since.


Shame! Seems like he had talent...

Edit... Haha didn't realise he was credited as Johnny Williams! What an oddity. Is he known as that by anyone?


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Shame! Seems like he had talent...
> 
> Edit... Haha didn't realise he was credited as Johnny Williams! What an oddity. Is he known as that by anyone?


 It's funny. I loved that show as a kid. Theme song was awesome. You can definitely hear Star Wars elements in some of the incidental writing throughout. I had to laugh the first time I realized who "Johnny Williams" credited on that series really was.


----------



## FinGael

PerryD said:


> His name is Johnny Williams, according to the music credits at the end of the "Lost in Space" TV series in the 1960's. I'm not sure if he has done anything since.



Sir, I think you might have the wrong Williams.

My bet goes to a gentleman called Pharrell Williams.

You know the chap that did the Happy suite and Blurred Lines symphonic poem with the Thicke fellow. Famous mostly for somewhat minimalistic themes, but even he has the common problem that melodies can get out of the hand now and then.


----------



## PerryD

FinGael said:


> Sir, I think you might have the wrong Williams.
> 
> My bet goes to a gentleman called Pharrell Williams.
> 
> You know the chap that did the Happy suite and Blurred Lines symphonic poem with the Thicke fellow. Famous mostly for somewhat minimalistic themes, but even he has the common problem that melodies can get out of the hand now and then.


 Maybe it was Paul Williams? So many Williams!!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

How likely is a Black Friday sale for the Infinite series?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How likely is a Black Friday sale for the Infinite series?


Would love to know this too.


----------



## rnb_2

I like music said:


> Shame! Seems like he had talent...
> 
> Edit... Haha didn't realise he was credited as Johnny Williams! What an oddity. Is he known as that by anyone?



I believe there are stories about different directors working with him (definitely Lucas and Spielberg) where he is commonly referred to as Johnny.


----------



## I like music

rnb_2 said:


> I believe there are stories about different directors working with him (definitely Lucas and Spielberg) where he is commonly referred to as Johnny.



Cool. Just doesn't look like a Johnny, if that makes sense at all!


----------



## pierrevigneron

Geocranium said:


> What I'd like to hear is how it handles an agile, exposed piccolo line, like the famous one from the Star Wars opening:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All my current woodwinds offerings seem to either be too sluggish to really pull it off, or just have a lackluster tone/lack of expressiveness when doing a line like this. I feel like IW could tackle something like this.



I have posted it few days ago


----------



## pierrevigneron

pierrevigneron said:


> I remade my model of the star wars opening with infinite woodwinds 2 and infinite brass 1.5. All woodwinds and brass come exclusively from this series. Do not hesitate to take a critical look because I want to use it for educational / promotional purposes


Here


----------



## El Buhdai

Am I the only one excited for Infinite Percussion? Hollywood Percussion's low number of dynamic layers is really starting to show itself.

EDIT: All all the other quality percussion options are too expensive


----------



## pierrevigneron

By curiosity, El buhdai what are you consider as quality percussions options ?


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> Am I the only one excited for Infinite Percussion? Hollywood Percussion's low number of dynamic layers is really starting to show itself.
> 
> EDIT: All all the other quality percussion options are too expensive



In the case of IP, just like pizz in IS, I wish there to be simulated damping of bass drums and timpanis. That would be glorious!


----------



## aaronventure

Jamus said:


> In the case of IP, just like pizz in IS, I wish there to be simulated damping of bass drums and timpanis. That would be glorious!


The idea is to damp on key release, and have the sustain pedal work for sustaining, i.e. bypassing damping.

Infinite Percussion is still a long way off. If I run into any new discoveries while doing Strings that I think can be applied to Brass and Woodwinds... you know how the cycle goes.


----------



## goalie composer

aaronventure said:


> The idea is to damp on key release, and have the sustain pedal work for sustaining, i.e. bypassing damping.
> 
> Infinite Percussion is still a long way off. If I run into any new discoveries while doing Strings that I think can be applied to Brass and Woodwinds... you know how the cycle goes.


And a vicious cycle it is


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> while doing Strings



Music to my ears


----------



## Nando Florestan

shawnsingh said:


> OK so it's becoming clear that this piece will not be finished any time soon - too many other priorities taking over. So instead, here's the first minute and half, where I did finish orchestrating and programming the brass at least. It's 100% Infinite Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, the rest of the piece is going to be more of the same anyway. There's a good chance I won't be able to make the composition climax and arc the way I'm hoping. In retrospect, I made a mistake focusing my initial sketch too much on the brass. So now I cornered myself into the awkward process of fishing for ways to fit strings and woodwinds into the piece as an afterthought, and it's not going very well in that way.
> 
> Also, I don't think the the brass and strings are sitting well together in the mix, something is off. But I can't pinpoint how to improve it. So mix suggestions would be very welcome and appreciated!
> 
> But what REALLY matters in this thread - this library has exceeded my expectations and I don't have the right words to express how thrilled I am! I doubt that any other current library can accomplish this degree of controllable nuance and character while still sounding realistic and having a sane workflow. This is really a sweet spot among all the different ways to design orchestral virtual instruments. Thank you Aaron for such a wonderful brass library!




Shawn, now that Infinite Brass 1.5 is out, I await your finished piece, you gotta finish it!

And your EQ curves have been extremely useful to me. I wonder if you could tell us how you treat the new version, I don't think most of us are at your level yet. So far I have done little more than put the trumpets behind that wonderful, free Proximity plugin, which had a similar effect to the EQ curve you had for the trumpets.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Am I the only one excited for Infinite Percussion? Hollywood Percussion's low number of dynamic layers is really starting to show itself.
> 
> EDIT: All all the other quality percussion options are too expensive





aaronventure said:


> Infinite Percussion is still a long way off. If I run into any new discoveries while doing Strings that I think can be applied to Brass and Woodwinds... you know how the cycle goes.



I'm excited for every library that follows this principles so YES but I don't want to hurt myself to much because the percussions are so far away (as Aaron says) that waiting for them would be painful!

Let's concentrate on strings. I can fill the gap for the percussions even if I feel many shortcomings but I need strings so much!!

About percussions, for example, I'm dreaming off Timpani with full dynamic range and real dampening.


----------



## Montisquirrel

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How likely is a Black Friday sale for the Infinite series?



The update was just released without any intro price, and it's one month untill black friday.... so I think there is no sale soon regarding the Woods.


----------



## decredis

For what it's worth... I convinced myself that, although I definitely don't need the full VSL SyWW, I did want to supplement IW with VSL's old oboes (the French and the d'Amore, specifically) so I got them on the 2 for 1... and ...

... yes, having put them both in an equivalent context (both dry, in a cubase reverb, alongside a piano part) there are differences in tone but they are (to my relatively naive ears) *subtle* differences, yes maybe a little more warmth and rounded nasality in the VSL ones, but actually as I was A/Bing I got confused at times about which one I was listening to.

So, upshot is, I don't exactly regret the £45 for two extra oboes, a range of timbres is a good thing and it's not a big expense, but if I could go back in time an hour I might say to myself, "don't be silly: IW2.0 is all the woodwinds you need".


----------



## decredis

What I want to know is how long until we have Infinite Crumhorn and Infinite Sackbut and Infinite Bladder Pipe, and can I put off buying a mediaeval library until then?


----------



## easynam

If I get to play an infinite crumhorn I could die happy


----------



## Sean J

When people ask "is that even possible with sampled instruments", my official reply now:







On another note, Aaron snuck in brass and woodwinds together, right? Well...

MAYBE he's going to sneak in Infinite Strings for a Black Friday all-in-one discount sale. I mean, it would be smart as it would probably get all the people leaning to go full-hog and get it all. I think I'm just going to choose to believe this is what he's been secretly planning. I like thinking it's only a month away anyway. Makes me feel this inner feeling I like. Maybe it's the force. Probably is.



easynam said:


> If I get to play an infinite crumhorn I could die happy



Crumhorn would rock, plus recorders... so much possibility there. Recorders are likely, and w/ a solo violin I'd probably mock-up Diagon Alley and the Devil's dance. I'd have to do both. One way or another, great things are in the future just because Aaron is Aaroning.


----------



## FinGael

Sean J said:


> One way or another, great things are in the future just because Aaron is Aaroning.



Heh. A new way to describe success...

"The project was a major Aaron."
"We Aaroned to make something spectacular."


----------



## Nando Florestan

There's a woodwind topic going on. I wrote a long post about my history with woodwind sample libraries, recommending Infinite at the end, with a couple of caveats.





Best woodwinds library


Does VSL still need a dongle? Yes, same dongle required by Cubase for example.




vi-control.net





Aaron deserves success, he truly is a composer's friend.


----------



## Nando Florestan

@aaronventure

The Infinite libraries are great for playing things in -- this is unanimous. Now I have a question or feature request for people like me, who like to put the correct notes in first, and then later add a performance.

Suppose your dynamic CC is at 96 and you are starting a musical phrase. If you enter the first note with velocity 96, the attack will be at the same level as the note, sounding firm and lifeless. Usually you will want something like 76 for wind instruments in that case -- or 116 if you want an accent. That's all fine. But things get different on the second note of the phrase:

There is a feature that "understands" when the performer starts strong but continues the phrase in a lower dynamic, and corrects accordingly. The manual says this is something pianists commonly do. Okay, but this makes programming a performance more difficult, since velocities now depend on what came before -- they are not deterministic. Potentially, if you change your mind and change the beginning of a musical phrase, you might need to correct the velocities you already have at the end of the phrase. This is affecting me in practice -- I am often being surprised by how the instrument reacts, so I have to be correcting velocities constantly.

If that feature is a subsystem in the script, I would like someone to teach me to disable that subsystem. As soon as possible. I am a programmer, I have no fear of Kontakt scripts. If I can disable the subsystem by setting a flag at the beginning of the script, then great, please teach me.

If such a flag does not currently exist, then this is a feature request. At a minimum, a flag in the script, but maybe even a very small checkbox hidden somewhere in the UI.

Pretty please?

That's it for the question, now I have a tip for those like me. I wrote some MIDI middleware that allows me to program velocities independently of the dynamic CC value. In my example above, to enter the correct velocity, normally I would need to know that the dynamic CC is at 96. With my middleware I don't need that -- if I want the firm lifeless attack I set velocity to 64 and the script sets the final velocity for me. Consequently, I can make an entire phrase louder or softer by changing only the CC values and not changing any velocities -- the attacks remain with their musical meaning, which is one of the benefits of working this way.

This allows me to use notation software. I think the piano-roll is a profoundly amusical view of a composition and I insist on keeping notation until the end. Newer software is making this possible, and as you can see, I find my own solutions. But now I have this weird feature request.


----------



## Sean J

Nando Florestan said:


> if you change your mind and change the beginning of a musical phrase, you might need to correct the velocities you already have at the end of the phrase. This is affecting me in practice -- I am often being surprised by how the instrument reacts, so I have to be correcting velocities constantly.



Aaron designs it for playback, though he has listened to requests about humanize also. I both play/program Infinite. Some humanization is limited as Kontakt KSP is............ well, limited. So making a perfectly humanized instrument isn't possible without adding your own human touch to it. Thus playing it in works so well. As I said, I sometimes program it entirely. Spring action doesn't live up to triple tonguing. As a result, I program a trumpet the way I'd play a real one. One can play pianissimo with more or less force. One can play brass/cuivre at lower volumes. Instruments are extensions of our bodies really. We all know that, I know. But when you think about that in relation to velocity AND mod-wheel affecting each other, it makes sense that they do.

An X/Y pad in that it's 2 dimensional. Piano rolls in the DAW and Notation are very limited in their GUI as to how to edit a performance. I do pretty well despite this, but to me the problem is there more than it is with the instrument. We're talking about editing challenges. So my first thought here is...

Don't change the instrument. Change the editor.

My second thought is that you could always use a multiscript (as Aaron's script takes the first KSP slot) that would apply the most recent mod value as the velocity. This way you'd only use the mod-wheel for the entire performance. It's far less agile, but it seems to lead to the same result what you're asking for... no? You're last paragraphs made less sense to me.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Sean J said:


> Aaron designs it for playback, though he has listened to requests about humanize also. I both play/program Infinite. Some humanization is limited as Kontakt KSP is............ well, limited. So making a perfectly humanized instrument isn't possible without adding your own human touch to it. Thus playing it in works so well. As I said, I sometimes program it entirely. Spring action doesn't live up to triple tonguing. As a result, I program a trumpet the way I'd play a real one. One can play pianissimo with more or less force. One can play brass/cuivre at lower volumes. Instruments are extensions of our bodies really. We all know that, I know. But when you think about that in relation to velocity AND mod-wheel affecting each other, it makes sense that they do.
> 
> An X/Y pad in that it's 2 dimensional. Piano rolls in the DAW and Notation are very limited in their GUI as to how to edit a performance. I do pretty well despite this, but to me the problem is there more than it is with the instrument. We're talking about editing challenges. So my first thought here is...
> 
> Don't change the instrument. Change the editor.
> 
> My second thought is that you could always use a multiscript (as Aaron's script takes the first KSP slot) that would apply the most recent mod value as the velocity. This way you'd only use the mod-wheel for the entire performance. It's far less agile, but it seems to lead to the same result what you're asking for... no? You're last paragraphs made less sense to me.



I should not have mentioned that I use notation -- it leads to prejudice and people are not up-to-date with what contemporary notation programs can do. I will just ask you to trust that my notation software is powerful, closer to a DAW than you think. For instance, Notion allows me to record CC performance, edit velocities, randomize them, nudge the start of a note to the left or to the right etc. You can also write very deep rules about how to play your notation. You can write a rule in which a condition depends on several circumstances about the notation. For instance, use the spiccato patch only if there's a dot on top of the note and the note duration is less than X and the pitch is above E4 and there is no trill happening... In addition to Notion's features I have been developing my own software to enrich the performance.

That's all unimportant, I could be using a sequencer and it would not change my point: currently if you start changing your music, you will have to change velocities of neighbor notes (to those you changed) because that feature makes the result of velocities hard to reason about. Smart for playing in, but hard for editing a performance.

I expect a feature to be a subsystem, therefore it shouldn't be too hard to allow it to be turned off. This also benefits the diagnostic of bugs: When someone complains about something weird happening, you can divide and conquer the surface area of the suspect code by testing with some features disabled.

About your suggestion of bypassing velocities, it wouldn't work unless the instrument code allows it to work. Anyway, that's not what I want. I enjoy configuring the attack through velocity, independently of the dynamics. I wrote software that allows me to do this. I can change an entire phrase from f to ff (by changing CC1) without having to change any of the velocities. If the phrase has some accents, or slow legato moments, they remain as they were, no need to reprogram. I like that.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Has anyone used this software inside Dorico yet? Are the results superior to note performer or is the lack of cc movement no good?

@aaronventure


----------



## Sean J

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Has anyone used this software inside Dorico yet? Are the results superior to note performer or is the lack of cc movement no good?



Read the posts right above yours.



Nando Florestan said:


> About your suggestion of bypassing velocities, it wouldn't work unless the instrument code allows it to work.



Aaron can respond to that I guess. The only side note I'd add here, for Aaron really, is that messing with note lengths in KSP may be impossible to do right. Perhaps he could humanize his note attacks more even when they have the same note length...? I'd like that a lot, but it may not be possible still.



Nando Florestan said:


> I should not have mentioned that I use notation -- it leads to prejudice and people are not up-to-date with what contemporary notation programs can do.



I know these better than you'd guess. I'm sure of that. 

Cubase & Studio One vs Notion - An _Infinite _glance:

Vel Compression Handles (Cubase) and Transform (Studio One) allow one to quickly edit hundreds of velocities all at once, and in multiple ways. No non-DAW notation program has as fast a method. Studio One does, so it wins this point for me. If you are happy enough with velocity editing in Notion, then why does this issue come up?

StaffPad, Notion, Dorico, Sibelius, Finale, Overture, Music Time Deluxe, Noteworthy Composer, Noteflight, Note.io, Musescore... I've used all of them (probably more), own many, _*and know the limits and strengths*_ of Expression Maps, Notion Rules, Sibelius Sound Sets, all their MIDI editing, etc. StaffPad easily wins the notation workflow contest for me. After that, Notion is 1,000x faster than Dorico to work in... but Dorico is a bit better for out-of-box sound with Infinite. It's all trade-offs, depending on what which needs different composers value most. So no, I definitely don't underestimate Notion. Not at all. I love the program. It's a workflow masterpiece, outside the rules being the absolute wrong UX choice. I told most major devs years ago to create an in-app store with pre-mapped libraries and to quit handing composers configs, scripts, etc. We want to compose, not screw around with XML all day.

As I often mention StaffPad and Infinite as being my favorites, and as I've had some PM me on occasion about this as the two don't work together. Thus a quick note on my workflow:

1) Improv-sketch ideas with Infinite, as it's agile enough to write for instruments, not limited samples.
2) Write in StaffPad, as I write faster with it than I do in any DAW by far. Took finishing a song to get the hang of the writing rec, but now I fly in it.
3) Perform key parts with Infinite in Studio One afterward, to make up for where every other sample library just... can't do what humans can. I've imported the MIDI from StaffPad to Infinite, but performing it makes it much closer to what performers add to the piece afterward.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Sean J said:


> Read the posts right above yours.
> 
> 
> 
> Aaron can respond to that I guess. The only side note I'd add here, for Aaron really, is that messing with note lengths in KSP may be impossible to do right. Perhaps he could humanize his note attacks more even when they have the same note length...? I'd like that a lot, but it may not be possible still.
> 
> 
> 
> I know these better than you'd guess. I'm sure of that.
> 
> Cubase & Studio One vs Notion - An _Infinite _glance:
> 
> Vel Compression Handles (Cubase) and Transform (Studio One) allow one to quickly edit hundreds of velocities all at once, and in multiple ways. No non-DAW notation program has as fast a method. Studio One does, so it wins this point for me. If you are happy enough with velocity editing in Notion, then why does this issue come up?
> 
> StaffPad, Notion, Dorico, Sibelius, Finale, Overture, Music Time Deluxe, Noteworthy Composer, Noteflight, Note.io, Musescore... I've used all of them (probably more), own many, _*and know the limits and strengths*_ of Expression Maps, Notion Rules, Sibelius Sound Sets, all their MIDI editing, etc. StaffPad easily wins the notation workflow contest for me. After that, Notion is 1,000x faster than Dorico to work in... but Dorico is a bit better for out-of-box sound with Infinite. It's all trade-offs, depending on what which needs different composers value most. So no, I definitely don't underestimate Notion. Not at all. I love the program. It's a workflow masterpiece, outside the rules being the absolute wrong UX choice. I told most major devs years ago to create an in-app store with pre-mapped libraries and to quit handing composers configs, scripts, etc. We want to compose, not screw around with XML all day.
> 
> As I often mention StaffPad and Infinite as being my favorites, and as I've had some PM me on occasion about this as the two don't work together. Thus a quick note on my workflow:
> 
> 1) Improv-sketch ideas with Infinite, as it's agile enough to write for instruments, not limited samples.
> 2) Write in StaffPad, as I write faster with it than I do in any DAW by far. Took finishing a song to get the hang of the writing rec, but now I fly in it.
> 3) Perform key parts with Infinite in Studio One afterward, to make up for where every other sample library just... can't do what humans can. I've imported the MIDI from StaffPad to Infinite, but performing it makes it much closer to what performers add to the piece afterward.


Doesn't really answer any part of my question


----------



## Sean J

Btw... I only say I know them better than you think not to be a snob. It's a pain point. I've wasted WAYYY too much time trying to find programs that treat music... musically. StaffPad and Infinite do for me. Notion ALMOST does....... for me.


----------



## Sean J

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Doesn't really answer any part of my question



OH sorry... I initially typed something about Note Performer and didn't include it in the end. Geez!

Okay, so Dorico is VERY bland by default with Infinite, until you make a decent Exp. Map and tweak humanization. Then it's..... semi-bland. It plays right, but the note lengths is an issue still. I wrote a humanize multiscript that emphasizes beats effectively for common time signatures and in general. IMHO, it's very note-performer-esque in how it sounds. I've thought about selling my script in my store. While Dorico does do this, my script allows for more customization of how much beat emphasis there is. The only reason I haven't shared this yet is I've wanted to play with humanizing note lengths. With KSP this is a pill. I'm not really sure it's possible honestly. I did mention this to the Dorico dev team at one point, but I doubt it's a priority item as they've done so much with humanize already.

Edit: CC movement is important. But honestly, I've NOT moved the mod-wheel so many times and got great results. Velocity and note length enough can make great performances. Aaron would disagree with that. I'm sure he would. I'm just saying note length is essential and that's the big issue in notation for me.


----------



## CT

Sean J said:


> When people ask "is that even possible with sampled instruments", my official reply now:



...and that's just as trustworthy as Sidious' original comments were.


----------



## Sean J

Mike T said:


> ...and that's just as trustworthy as Sidious' original comments were.



You're trying to say Spitfire is as agile as Infinite? HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! no.

And look, he was absolutely able to do what he said. One could trust that. I'm not sure I'd trust Aaron to rule the universe. I probably wouldn't. But I DO trust him to be able to do what he says he can do, or rather, I trust his instruments to do what they CLEARLY say they can do.


----------



## CT

Sigh. Never mind.


----------



## Sean J

I finally got it. I'm slow sometimes. Dark, certainly. But also slow with the funnies.


----------



## Woodie1972

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Doesn't really answer any part of my question



I use both Infinite libraries in Dorico and I think it works pretty well, but the main problem with Dorico is that note velocity seem to change randomly, which affects playback of the library as you may know. If you don't know the library yet: the attack of the note, even if it's a legato line, will probably be not what you expect it to do (an ugly hard attack in piano dynamics f.e.), but from the 2nd note under the slur it's okay. Not a big deal and quite easily changed in the velocity lane in Dorico's playback window, but it gives unneccesary extra work, to have to set every note that starts the line under a slurred phrase to the right value. 
You can midi record in Dorico as well, not sure how the library and Dorico handle that, so I can't really speak about that, but since Dorico changes velocity once you hit playback, I guess it doesn't matter much if you play it in or use notation. 
You can revert this with the override playback changes, but all in all It's not the most elegant workflow.


----------



## lucor

I got both IB and IW a few days ago, and I'm completely over the moon, these libraries are so good! So much fun to play, amplified even more when combined with Divisimate, and the tonal drawbacks towards 'traditional' sample libraries are becoming more and more negligible.

So far the only instruments that bother me a bit are the Trombones, to me they are by far the weakest link in the whole line up, though I can't yet pinpoint exactly what bother me about their sound. Lower dynamics are better, but the higher you go in dynamics, the worse the sound gets.
They are still far from bad, but compared to the other instruments they definitely fall short for me.

If anyone has any tips/hacks to make them sound better (be it mixing or midi trickery), I'd appreciate it!


----------



## pierrevigneron

I think I remember that Aaron told us about an automatic divisi option for future updates. Do you remember like me? @aaronventure can you reconfirm that for us? I admit finding divisimate very interesting but expensive and otherwise not as useful in production as in live performance. 

Also he had spoken to us about wood ethnics but frankly we can absolutely not blame him as version 2 of Infinite woddwinds is so good

I was thinking of one thing that may not be unanimous but which should not be very complicated for Aaron: We often hear the noises of breaths on the traditional libraries of winds and brass it could reinforce the realism to have them optional. . On a set of woods all these little noises, even very discreet ones, could bring a little authenticity to these woods which are sometimes a little too perfect because of the technology used. 

I include here two small extracts played with infinite woodwinds, these are two extracts from concertos of which you will find the real performances in these two videos at respectively 1min38 and 3min12




And finally, once again: Thanks Aaron !!!


----------



## aaronventure

pierrevigneron said:


> automatic divisi option for future updates


For Strings yes, but not in plan for Brass and Woodwinds at the moment.


----------



## HereGiam

I'm now on the verge of getting both these libraries. I do have a couple questions which perhaps the collective expertise in this thread could help me with please.

For the mutes in IB, I see they are controlled by a slider in the interface. Can a MIDI CC be assigned to this slider? I'm specifically thinking of horns where hand-stopping can be required on a few notes in a phrase, so a CC would be the ideal way to achieve this. Still on the mutes, and horns in particular, does applying the stopping mute affect the pitch of the note? It's described as a pot-stop mute so presumably not? In reality stopping a horn does affect the pitch (up a semitone I believe) which the player has to compensate for.

Secondly, in IW the range of the 3 clarinets is given going down to D3. I assume then they are all Bb clarinets? Is it possible to achieve an A clarinet, which goes down to C#3?

Many thanks for any help.


----------



## Beans

HereGiam said:


> For the mutes in IB, I see they are controlled by a slider in the interface. Can a MIDI CC be assigned to this slider?



Yep. Right click to change.








HereGiam said:


> Still on the mutes, and horns in particular, does applying the stopping mute affect the pitch of the note?



The effect is applied without affecting the pitch.


----------



## aaronventure

HereGiam said:


> For the mutes in IB, I see they are controlled by a slider in the interface. Can a MIDI CC be assigned to this slider?


They're all mapped to CC26 by default, so you can set up expression maps or whatever you use. If you switch a mute while a note is playing, the mute will be applied after it stops (it will not apply during legato transitions). 



HereGiam said:


> Still on the mutes, and horns in particular, does applying the stopping mute affect the pitch of the note?


Mutes don't affect the pitch. That wouldn't be a very cool feature to work with :D



HereGiam said:


> Secondly, in IW the range of the 3 clarinets is given going down to D3. I assume then they are all Bb clarinets? Is it possible to achieve an A clarinet, which goes down to C#3?


Yeah they're Bb clarinets. You can transpose the instrument down by 1 semitone on the Tune knob. Infinite is chromatic so that will not really be noticeable. Any tuning and detuning happens at sample-level, so the script still applies its magic and the whole thing only then goes through convolution.


----------



## HereGiam

Thanks for the replies.



aaronventure said:


> Yeah they're Bb clarinets. You can transpose the instrument down by 1 semitone on the Tune knob. Infinite is chromatic so that will not really be noticeable. Any tuning and detuning happens at sample-level, so the script still applies its magic and the whole thing only then goes through convolution.



Is +/- 1 semitone of tune the most you could realistically get away with? I'm now thinking about the bassoons where going up to E5 would be nice.


----------



## aaronventure

HereGiam said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> 
> 
> Is +/- 1 semitone of tune the most you could realistically get away with? I'm now thinking about the bassoons where going up to E5 would be nice.


If you're using any of the conventional big name sample libraries (and probably the ones from smaller devs as well), half of your samples are already stretched by a semitone. Sampling is usually done diatonically, as this saves time, money, RAM and space at a relatively minor quality cost. At -2 you're still good, but the clarinets will now have a slightly deeper, thicker tone. Hell, maybe that's what's you want, so go right ahead. Do it for other instruments as well if you want. Again, transposing here works much better than with standard wet-sampled instruments, since the space goes after the pitch change and there is no noise (or rather it's inaudible) to be a giveaway. 

You can also not use transpose at all, and simply plonk the pitch bend all the way down (or up) and get 3 additional semitones when you need them.


----------



## Terry93D

HereGiam said:


> Is +/- 1 semitone of tune the most you could realistically get away with? I'm now thinking about the bassoons where going up to E5 would be nice.


We can always hope Aaron gets a hold of a tenoroon at some point... A G Tenoroon can reach F5, an F Tenoroon can reach Eb5. 

Really though as far as expansion go I'll be happy to have Recorders and Flugelhorns... after the Strings, of course.


----------



## ChristianM




----------



## Sean J

Multiphonics?
Tongue slaps?
Mouthpiece only?

Are we sure Infinite is agile enough? Tongue slaps & mouthpiece could be added like mutes are in the GUI. Will strings be able to do pizz tremolo (there are a few other names for this) on a CC like fluttertongue?

So many questions about possibilities keep coming up. I doubt anyone will sample a superball mallet on a contrabass anytime soon. I've dug quite deep into extended techniques. There's an endless supply. A violinist can trill JUST the tail of a left-handed pizz, for example. I'm not quite getting into these realms as much as I'm wondering about how expansive Aaron's approach can become. This is really nothing like all the other sample libraries out there. It could obviously get deeper (I imagine well after Aaron's finished the basics... and perhaps it never will if these aren't as interesting to him personally). If any library took the instrument more seriously, it would obviously be Infinite.

Has this been talked about at any point in the thread?


----------



## Nando Florestan

Woodie1972 said:


> I use both Infinite libraries in Dorico and I think it works pretty well, but the main problem with Dorico is that note velocity seem to change randomly, which affects playback of the library as you may know. If you don't know the library yet: the attack of the note, even if it's a legato line, will probably be not what you expect it to do (an ugly hard attack in piano dynamics f.e.), but from the 2nd note under the slur it's okay. Not a big deal and quite easily changed in the velocity lane in Dorico's playback window, but it gives unneccesary extra work, to have to set every note that starts the line under a slurred phrase to the right value.
> You can midi record in Dorico as well, not sure how the library and Dorico handle that, so I can't really speak about that, but since Dorico changes velocity once you hit playback, I guess it doesn't matter much if you play it in or use notation.
> You can revert this with the override playback changes, but all in all It's not the most elegant workflow.



Why would Dorico change note-on velocity randomly? I think something else is going on. I think you are getting bit by the smart velocity comprehension feature in Infinite libraries, just as I am.

@aaronventure as I asked before: can I hope for a way to turn that feature off when programming a performance rather than playing? Or am I misunderstanding something?


----------



## aaronventure

Nando Florestan said:


> as I asked before:


I'm not entirely too sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about dynamics behavior during legato?


----------



## Nando Florestan

aaronventure said:


> I'm not entirely too sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about dynamics behavior during legato?



@aaronventure 

Yes I am. I have noticed that the response to note-on velocities does not seem deterministic -- rather it depends on the velocity of previous notes. I believe this is due to the feature, described in the manual, that adapts to a pianist's habit of starting strong and playing subsequent notes less strongly. I would like to turn off this feature when programming a performance.

I noticed this in a french horn phrase. The behavior would be different depending on where I started the playback.


----------



## Woodie1972

Nando Florestan said:


> Why would Dorico change note-on velocity randomly? I think something else is going on. I think you are getting bit by the smart velocity comprehension feature in Infinite libraries, just as I am.
> 
> @aaronventure as I asked before: can I hope for a way to turn that feature off when programming a performance rather than playing? Or am I misunderstanding something?



No sorry, it has nothing to do with my misinterpretation of what Aaron's libraries do: I also discussed this on the Facebook page of Dorico. I thought I had figured it out what the problem was, but it keeps coming back. 
What happens is that, when you've entered some notes in Dorico, then hit playback whilst keeping an eye on the velocity lane, you will notice the velocity values change, most of the time either to 64 or 100. 
Since it doesn't happen every time, it's difficult to reproduce, but it absolutely happens on quite regular basis. 
No need to say this can give unexpected results.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Okay, I use Notion and it's full of bugs, but not that one...


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@aaronventure,

I do believe he means that he wants velocity 64 to be without any accent of crescendo into the note no matter what the CC value is. 64 would be like turning off the attack range.

Example: If I play a phrase where CC1 is at 100 and I play a velocity 64 that means that it will be without any accent or crescendo. Also if the CC is 40 and I play a velocity of 40 there's a small swoop-in determined by how far from the natural value (64) the velocity is. I guess it would be helpful when you are very happy with your accents and crescendos but only want to lower the dynamics without altering how hard the accents are.

I'm not entirely sure though. If this is not what you're looking for it might be better if you can show us @Nando Florestan?


----------



## Nando Florestan

Jonathan Moray said:


> @aaronventure,
> 
> I do believe he means that he wants velocity 64 to be without any accent of crescendo into the note no matter what the CC value is. 64 would be like turning off the attack range.
> 
> Example: If I play a phrase where CC1 is at 100 and I play a velocity 64 that means that it will be without any accent or crescendo. Also if the CC is 40 and I play a velocity of 40 there's a small swoop-in determined by how far from the natural value (64) the velocity is. I guess it would be helpful when you are very happy with your accents and crescendos but only want to lower the dynamics without altering how hard the accents are.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure though. If this is not what you're looking for it might be better if you can show us @Nando Florestan?



Nope. That's not what I want. To accomplish that I wrote a little script and it does that just fine. If I program a note with CC1=48 and velocity=64, my script translates the velocity to 48 before it reaches the virtual instrument. Problem solved.

If I program that note with velocity=54, that is 10 less than medium, so the script sees that CC1 is at 48 and outputs velocity 38. It works. My question is not related to this script in any way.

The manual talks about a feature to understand pianistic performances better. That feature hurts programming because it makes the result unpredictable. I want to disable it. I don't know anymore how to explain myself any better...

Unpredictable how? I have a long french horn phrase. I am auditioning it repeatedly in order to fine-tune those attacks and legato lengths. Now I am done with the first half of the phrase, so to save time, I only want to audition the second half. But if I do that, I hear something different than if I played back the entire phrase. That's bad. I don't need the feature, I want to turn it off.


----------



## gedlig

So you need it to sound the same when starting playback from a random spot in a section as that part would sound when starting playback from the beginning of the section. Like it was frozen/bounced/rendered.


----------



## Nando Florestan

gedlig said:


> So you need it to sound the same when starting playback from a random spot in a section as that part would sound when starting playback from the beginning of the section. Like it was frozen/bounced/rendered.



Sure, that's what normally happens with all *finite* libraries. *Infinite* libraries are unanimously great for playing something in, so evidently the programming is great. I just want to be able to turn off a feature that can make playback imprecise according to where it started.


----------



## gedlig

Nando Florestan said:


> Sure, that's what normally happens with all *finite* libraries. *Infinite* libraries are unanimously great for playing something in, so evidently the programming is great. I just want to be able to turn off a feature that can make playback imprecise according to where it started.


Gotcha. I don't own any of these libraries yet, saving up some funds to be left after the purchases. So don't know the notes would behave differently depending on the playback start point. I can imagine how this could be annoying when you want to start listening from the middle of a phrase, but I imagine it's made to work like an actual player would act as you generally start playing a section differently from how you would play it in succesion from a previous section.


----------



## Sean J

Nando Florestan said:


> @aaronventure
> 
> Yes I am. I have noticed that the response to note-on velocities does not seem deterministic -- rather it depends on the velocity of previous notes. I believe this is due to the feature, described in the manual, that adapts to a pianist's habit of starting strong and playing subsequent notes less strongly. I would like to turn off this feature when programming a performance.
> 
> I noticed this in a french horn phrase. The behavior would be different depending on where I started the playback.



AH! I get it now. Sorry, I just didn't understand the point. I did try to up the velocity on a legato note at one point, hoping I'd have an easier way to give emphasis to the note rather than changing the CC curve. So I see the value behind what you want. I'm not sure if it's the best answer, if it's a useful enough feature idea to matter, or bloat (as features pile up faster than most realize). That's a bigger question Aaron would have to get at. But I do think you have a decent point, at very least.


----------



## PerryD

Using a breath controller with the flute and oboe is very nice! Short test.


----------



## aaronventure

Nando Florestan said:


> The manual talks about a feature to understand pianistic performances better. That feature hurts programming because it makes the result unpredictable. I want to disable it. I don't know anymore how to explain myself any better...


"Smart Legato" only refers to speed. It detects if you're playing faster than the legato transitions themselves can execute, and speeds them up accordingly. It's for fast lines, as it's reactive and not predictive i.e. your last legato duration/note velocity is always whatever you play it, so that it's consistent. 

Non-leader instruments have Humanize enabled by default. You might wanna check out if that's enabled and messing with your input. If you plan to play in each instrument individually, disable Humanize. 

There's nothing different that happens on legato no matter how strong or soft your attack on the initial note is. If you play a really soft one then proceed to play a legato note shortly after, the soft attack carries over and will continue to execute on top of your legato transition. 

For a consistent response, velocities and legato timings are always whatever you play them as, unless Humanize is enabled.


----------



## Sean J

PerryD said:


> Using a breath controller with the flute and oboe is very nice! Short test.




It was so good that someone even commented on your SoundCloud saying they want to hook up for you if you're looking for a good time. I mean, I knew Infinite was great... but Aaron's wizardry truly does have hidden depths.


----------



## Geocranium

So I finally jumped onto the infinite train, and I'm very impressed so far. I found the sample modeling trumpet less than satisfactory, mainly because to me no matter what I did with it they always screamed "oh, that's the sample modeling trumpet," so I eventually sold it. The trumpets in infinite brass are so much better in my opinion. Just as playable but with a tone I actually like.

Here's a WIP of a cue I'm putting together currently. I don't think I could have done the trumpets better with any other library.


----------



## John R Wilson

How does Infinite Brass compare to something like Sample Modelings Brass bundle?


----------



## Woodie1972

John R Wilson said:


> How does Infinite Brass compare to something like Sample Modelings Brass bundle?


The approach is totally different, playability does overlap each other quite a bit.
IB comes with built in reverb, but can be set to dry, SM is bonedry by itself, no reverb options, except the option to use FX in Kontakt using the wrench menu.
Personally I love the trombone from SM a lot, trumpet and tuba are good too, I'm not so fond of the sound of French horn in loud passages, soft to medium is pretty nice. 
There are more articulations in SM than in IB: in IB you won't find things like fall, bend and half valve gliss.
The sound of IB is very good out of the box, much better than SM, although the library can sound buzzy at loud dynamics. But if you don't exceed CC1 over 100, you're safe. Of course you will have to find out for yourself what values work best for you, but as a starting point this is a good maximum value.
French horn is great, trumpet and tuba too, trombone is trickier, especially when using your own reverb. In IB there are much more instruments like Euphonium, contrabass trombone and Cimbasso.


----------



## John R Wilson

Woodie1972 said:


> The approach is totally different, playability does overlap each other quite a bit.
> IB comes with built in reverb, but can be set to dry, SM is bonedry by itself, no reverb options, except the option to use FX in Kontakt using the wrench menu.
> Personally I love the trombone from SM a lot, trumpet and tuba are good too, I'm not so fond of the sound of French horn in loud passages, soft to medium is pretty nice.
> There are more articulations in SM than in IB: in IB you won't find things like fall, bend and half valve gliss.
> The sound of IB is very good out of the box, much better than SM, although the library can sound buzzy at loud dynamics. But if you don't exceed CC1 over 100, you're safe. Of course you will have to find out for yourself what values work best for you, but as a starting point this is a good maximum value.
> French horn is great, trumpet and tuba too, trombone is trickier, especially when using your own reverb. In IB there are much more instruments like Euphonium, contrabass trombone and Cimbasso.



Which one out of SM and IB do you prefer for playability but also sound/tone? My interest in these libraries has certainly increased after downloading some of the MIDI files from Aaron site for the demos. It is indeed much harder to program the kind of parts that have been played in for these demos without many many key switches. Try playing in some of the lines from the rite of spring demo in something like the BBCSO. I think it would take so much longer, loads of key switching and i'm still not sure if you'd be able to get such a flowing and consistent performance out of it. BBCSO probably does have a better tone but if those midi parts from Aarons demos were played live on a single track without any key switching then that's pretty cool!!


----------



## aaronventure

Woodie1972 said:


> There are more articulations in SM than in IB: in IB you won't find things like fall, bend and half valve gliss.


There's no scripted keytrigger for these, but you can still play all the falls, rips and bends yourself and do them exactly how you want.


----------



## Woodie1972

aaronventure said:


> There's no scripted keytrigger for these, but you can still play all the falls, rips and bends yourself and do them exactly how you want.


Then my apologies: I didn't find this yet as I was indeed looking for keyswitches to perform this. I probably should watch a walkthrough again, or mess around until I found what I need.


----------



## aaronventure

Woodie1972 said:


> Then my apologies: I didn't find this yet as I was indeed looking for keyswitches to perform this. I probably should watch a walkthrough again, or mess around until I found what I need.


Just do what it actually is: a series of short notes ascending or descending. Experiment with a chromatic sequence or skipping certain tones. Experiment with the notes overlapping (triggering legato) or being separate (this way you have more control over attack dynamics). Do bends with the pitch bend. Same for clusters.

It's definitely easier to sequence rips and falls. It's hard to play them on the keyboard and have your notes be right one after another without overlapping or any bigger gaps. I try to play them in the walkthrough.

10:55 for bends, 11:05 for clusters.


----------



## Woodie1972

John R Wilson said:


> Which one out of SM and IB do you prefer for playability but also sound/tone? My interest in these libraries has certainly increased after downloading some of the MIDI files from Aaron site for the demos. It is indeed much harder to program the kind of parts that have been played in for these demos without many many key switches. Try playing in some of the lines from the rite of spring demo in something like the BBCSO. I think it would take so much longer, loads of key switching and i'm still not sure if you'd be able to get such a flowing and consistent performance out of it. BBCSO probably does have a better tone but if those midi parts from Aarons demos were played live on a single track without any key switching then that's pretty cool!!



Hmm, difficult question and not so easy to answer. What I like most about IB is the sound out of the box and the high responsiveness to what you play or have entered in your score. 
But Sample modeling does this great too, so it's more a matter of taste than which one is better. The downside of SM is the sound out of the box, which is pretty ugly, but with some tweaking this one can sound good too. 
Maybe the big plus for IB is the flexibility to be able to play jazz/big band as well as classical and epic stuff, where SM leans more towards the big band sound and is found to be a bit thin for epic music.


----------



## Woodie1972

aaronventure said:


> Just do what it actually is: a series of short notes ascending or descending. Experiment with a chromatic sequence or skipping certain tones. Experiment with the notes overlapping (triggering legato) or being separate (this way you have more control over attack dynamics). Do bends with the pitch bend. Same for clusters.


Thanks a lot, will give this a try!


----------



## pierrevigneron

SM (like SWAM instruments) is very dry, it is as if the microphone was really close to the horn, whereas with IB, even with the microphone closed and the Soloist position, you still feel a slight distance. I find on the contrary that SM is doing a marvel for jazzy music. on the other hand, try to place the SM or SWAM instruments in a large environment like a hall to recreate a symphony orchestra and there, even with very good reverbs we quickly feel the limitations of these vsti to recreate a coherent space


----------



## Geocranium

My biggest issue with Sample Modeling is that no matter what kind of tweaking I did, I could always immediately tell that it was the sample modeling trumpet, or the sample modeling horn, etc. The tone was so distinct and I didn't enjoy it for the most part. The trumpets always sounded too "thin" for my tastes, and the horns were very muffled. With IB I like the tone a lot more (though the trombones I think are the weakest part), and it has the same playability. 

Outside of the instruments themselves, IB's developer Aaron has shown that he's extremely passionate about virtual instrument technology and the longevity of this project/product. That's something that I definitely want to support.


----------



## vicontrolu

I've said it before: infinite is the evolution of sample modelling. I have no place for SM brass anymore. Not even for big band or jazzy stuff.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Sample Modeling is probably the result of deeper research and the detail shows in features such as Timbral Shaping, which allows you to change the intensity of each one of the 10 first harmonics. However, in practice I have been using Infinite Brass more often, for 3 reasons: better CPU usage, no bugs ever, and immediately useful sound out of the box, without much need for mixing.

Sample Modeling does come with an orchestral setting for their brass -- people writing that it doesn't just have overlooked it or forgotten it. However, Infinite Brass comes with 15 Mixed Mics (5 distances for each space) -- most often you can pick one and be done.

Infinite Brass does not improve on Sample Modeling brass in all aspects, but for most composers, it will be a better choice at the present time. And the instrument count is higher.

Another reason to support Infinite Brass is Aaron's openness. I can go behind the wrench in Infinite Brass, although maybe the script is obfuscated. All Sample Modeling instruments have the wrench locked away, you cannot see what's inside. The audio industry is terribly closed and Native Instruments is no exception, they even lock OUR data in secret file formats rather than using open file formats. Lots of products that WILL stop working without Internet access or an endpoint that responds... This should be a major concern for every user. For instance, so far I have managed to avoid buying a dongle. Do the same if you can... Take a look at those Hornet plugins without copy protection.


----------



## shawnsingh

Some more notes about finding a good mix for IW 2.0 and IB 1.5

I previously favored using only one mic position (which then logically ends up being Main, usually) because with IB 1.4 there was some slight phasing awkwardness when I tried to mix close along with.

I don't feel I've been able to reproduce that phasing again, at least not with woodwinds 2.0 and brass 1.5. On the other hand, now with woodwinds in the picture, I was feeling like one mic position only wasn't really creating the spatial "precision" in the stereo image, which I was hoping to get. Even the close mic by itself didn't feel like I was creating such an obvious stereo image difference.

Somehow, the combination of close mic and other mics is slightly more precise than either mic position alone. I suppose it has to do with the relative delay caused by each IR. It's still not as pin-pointy precise as I'd personally wish, but I think it's good enough to be happy with it for now.

And, sure enough the mix I ended up with can be approximated closely enough by Mic Mix #2. Using Studio IR, and then adding algorithmic reverb on top.

How are others trying to mix their winds?


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Some more notes about finding a good mix for IW 2.0 and IB 1.5
> 
> I previously favored using only one mic position (which then logically ends up being Main, usually) because with IB 1.4 there was some slight phasing awkwardness when I tried to mix close along with.
> 
> I don't feel I've been able to reproduce that phasing again, at least not with woodwinds 2.0 and brass 1.5. On the other hand, now with woodwinds in the picture, I was feeling like one mic position only wasn't really creating the spatial "precision" in the stereo image, which I was hoping to get. Even the close mic by itself didn't feel like I was creating such an obvious stereo image difference.
> 
> Somehow, the combination of close mic and other mics is slightly more precise than either mic position alone. I suppose it has to do with the relative delay caused by each IR. It's still not as pin-pointy precise as I'd personally wish, but I think it's good enough to be happy with it for now.
> 
> And, sure enough the mix I ended up with can be approximated closely enough by Mic Mix #2. Using Studio IR, and then adding algorithmic reverb on top.
> 
> How are others trying to mix their winds?



I haven't had the chance to try a lot of mixing. Work is just crazy right now. However, I found that in my mix mic setup (Mozarteum, Position 4 for brass) that woodwinds sounded best 1 position closer e.g. 3.

I did try to have them at 4 with the brass at 4, but I felt like it was too ambient at equivalent positions. So for now, just going with Mix mic 4 for brass and Mix mic 3 for winds.

That said, position 2 on winds gives a nice clean sound, and vibrato sounds better. But then brass at 3 isn't my favourite, so now I have to decide who is my favourite child. Going to go with Brass in this case just because I think that position 4 is a great mix between clean and resonant.

Actually haven't tried the studio IRs since the updates. Might look into that next.

PS I keep flicking between the EQ curves you had created, and not having an EQ. I still cannot decide which I prefer!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

So, if Woodwinds 2.0 was built upon learnings from Brass 1.4 / 1.5, does that mean Brass 2.0 is in the works or still a ways off?


----------



## Geocranium

I imagine we'll see strings before an update to either of the existing libraries.


----------



## I like music

Geocranium said:


> I imagine we'll see strings before an update to either of the existing libraries.



Aye. I have a feeling, both from the way aaron talked about the updates, and the way owners have reacted to them, that everyone considers them 'there' at least in the context of what they'd want next. So Strings I reckon it is.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Anyone got any tips on creating a scoring stage feel? I assume the Studio mix would work best?
Also, do you guys eq the trombones at all?


----------



## Kent

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Anyone got any tips on creating a scoring stage feel? I assume the Studio mix would work best?
> Also, do you guys eq the trombones at all?


I like to use Bersa, mic mix 3 (I think? don't have my template loaded up right now), standard seating, sample-delay the Horns a bit more left and the Trumpets a bit more right, and then insert the Seventh Heaven 'Scoring Stage' preset per instrument family (with a bit more bass multiplier as you go lower). I'm not 100% sold on the sound—I wish there were a set of IRs that could do a reasonable Sony or Teldex, hence my recent MIR questions—but it's the closest I've found so far for my ideal Scoring Stage setup.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I'm experiencing hanging notes and what sounds weird legato transitions when a second notes isn't being triggered. Not sure why. Anyone else having this?


----------



## Kent

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I'm experiencing hanging notes and what sounds weird legato transitions when a second notes isn't being triggered. Not sure why. Anyone else having this?


I had issues with this. I haven’t had any since 1.5/2.0, and I think it is because I now have Humanize disabled. Is yours on?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

kmaster said:


> I had issues with this. I haven’t had any since 1.5/2.0, and I think it is because I now have Humanize disabled. Is yours on?


ohhh i will try this

EDIT: Humanize is not enabled.


----------



## Kent

NeonMediaKJT said:


> ohhh i will try this
> 
> EDIT: Humanize is not enabled.


Ahh sorry! Wish I could help more.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

So, it is remarkably hard to find a comparison of the Infinite Series to other libraries (or even that many third-party demos / walkthroughs of Infinite compared to the usual suspects - perhaps that will change with the latest updates). However, I did find some that I thought would be useful to share here:

*BRASS - Copland's Fanfare*

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f8a71c236835c73a79a6806/1602908663851/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3/original/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3 (Infinite Brass 1.5)
CineBrass Core
https://youtu.be/omV2BbaCrRM (Spitfire Symphonic Brass)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN94g0rjZ80 (Cinematic Studio Brass vs. Sampling Modeling Brass)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ldhGc-8WhgDA-wq2SuaVZyoZkAz1Yzg4/view (Berlin Brass (courtesy of @shawnsingh))

*WOODS - Rite of Spring*

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f84806814861a26dd3a664b/1602512035487/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3/original/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3 (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt0ALmpNU2U (BBCSO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVe-TAyzNsY (Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrwW0MPvqY (VSL Woodwinds)

Haven't found the pieces mocked up in Berlin Woodwinds, JXL Brass, or in Hollywood Orchestra unfortunately.


----------



## shawnsingh

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So, it is remarkably hard to find a comparison of the Infinite Series to other libraries (or even that many third-party demos / walkthroughs of Infinite compared to the usual suspects - perhaps that will change with the latest updates). However, I did find some that I thought would be useful to share here:
> 
> *BRASS - Copland's Fanfare*
> 
> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f8a71c236835c73a79a6806/1602908663851/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3/original/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3 (Infinite Brass 1.5)
> CineBrass Core
> https://youtu.be/omV2BbaCrRM (Spitfire Symphonic Brass)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN94g0rjZ80 (Cinematic Studio Brass vs. Sampling Modeling Brass)
> 
> *WOODS - Rite of Spring*
> 
> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f84806814861a26dd3a664b/1602512035487/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3/original/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3 (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt0ALmpNU2U (BBCSO)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVe-TAyzNsY (Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrwW0MPvqY (VSL Woodwinds)
> 
> Haven't found the pieces mocked up in Berlin Series or in Hollywood Orchestra unfortunately.




Berlin Copland fanfare: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/i-cant-take-it-any-more.99428/post-4655890


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

shawnsingh said:


> Berlin Copland fanfare: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/i-cant-take-it-any-more.99428/post-4655890



Added! Thanks!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Here's a test I made today using only Infinite Brass and True Strike:


----------



## Sean J

kmaster said:


> I had issues with this. I haven’t had any since 1.5/2.0, and I think it is because I now have Humanize disabled. Is yours on?



KSP in my experience can be very problematic with messing with timing. I wrote a multiscript that humanizes CC1, tuning, velocity, and adds beat emphasis that works the way Dorico's works. I made it then requested on the Dorico forum that they add the same thing, which they did. It's all great, works awesome. Good stuff. Mess with timing? It's like everything falls apart. I don't trust KSP here, at all.

So if one wants to humanize start times or note lengths, I'd advise turning this off and using your DAW or notation program to do the humanizing. Just my two cents.

Edit: I also get hanging notes... often. All I have to do is hit stop on my transport and the 4th trumpet has a mind of it's own. It's not just that track. Disabling humanize didn't fix this for me. Just saying that I trust the host to humanize more than Kontakt.


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Here's a test I made today using only Infinite Brass and True Strike:




One of my all-time favourite melodies. And you caught the expression perfectly! I like the ambience here. What did you do?


----------



## Mikro93

I've been binge watching every possible review and technical walkthroughs of IB and IW. Consider me floored. The amount of thinking that went into this, to the last detail, is amazing.

Everything doesn't sound perfect to my ear, but most of the instruments seem spot on to me, and it will justify me getting it at some point. The tone, playability and control all in one patch are seriously groundbreaking, and I used to study acoustics and physical modelling, and attended several meetings on musical acoustics, so I'm not easily impressed. But bringing this kind of technology all the way to the public with such amazing sound and interface is nothing short of spectacular.

Aaron's kindness and openness regarding the updates and features of his babies has definitely been noticed  I can't wait for some kind of $699 gift from the skies to get it (+VAT, please, skies).

Keep the demos coming!


----------



## I like music

Mikro93 said:


> I've been binge watching every possible review and technical walkthroughs of IB and IW. Consider me floored. The amount of thinking that went into this, to the last detail, is amazing.
> 
> Everything doesn't sound perfect to my ear, but most of the instruments seem spot on to me, and it will justify me getting it at some point. The tone, playability and control all in one patch are seriously groundbreaking, and I used to study acoustics and physical modelling, and attended several meetings on musical acoustics, so I'm not easily impressed. But bringing this kind of technology all the way to the public with such amazing sound and interface is nothing short of spectacular.
> 
> Aaron's kindness and openness regarding the updates and features of his babies has definitely been noticed  I can't wait for some kind of $699 gift from the skies to get it (+VAT, please, skies).
> 
> Keep the demos coming!



Very nice music on your soundcloud by the way. Not the kind of stuff I go in for usually but somehow I'm still listening


----------



## timbit2006

Mikro93 said:


> I've been binge watching every possible review and technical walkthroughs of IB and IW. Consider me floored. The amount of thinking that went into this, to the last detail, is amazing.
> 
> Everything doesn't sound perfect to my ear, but most of the instruments seem spot on to me, and it will justify me getting it at some point. The tone, playability and control all in one patch are seriously groundbreaking, and I used to study acoustics and physical modelling, and attended several meetings on musical acoustics, so I'm not easily impressed. But bringing this kind of technology all the way to the public with such amazing sound and interface is nothing short of spectacular.
> 
> Aaron's kindness and openness regarding the updates and features of his babies has definitely been noticed  I can't wait for some kind of $699 gift from the skies to get it (+VAT, please, skies).
> 
> Keep the demos coming!


Maybe the gift will be an early black friday sale lasting all the way until december 25th    
Does anyone have any insight on their past sales? I'd probably end up with both Infinite Woodwinds and Brass if a good sale were to happen.


----------



## Martin S

I like music said:


> Very nice music on your soundcloud by the way. Not the kind of stuff I go in for usually but somehow I'm still listening



@Mikro93 : + 1 

Very interesting re-harmonization of Green Dolphin Street 

+ some nice bass playing on 'Africa' (sounds like a real electric bass to me - if not, it's damn good programming and you've managed to fool a conservatory educated bass player )


----------



## Mikro93

Thank you so much, @Martin S and @I like music  That is very kind of you!



timbit2006 said:


> Does anyone have any insight on their past sales?


I think there was an Anniversary event on the 27th of November last year, to celebrate Infinite Brass. Apart from that, I don't think Aaron has ever done any official black friday sales, but I might be wrong


----------



## gedlig

Wasn't in the loop back then, but if I remember correctly from reading all of this thread, that there were at least plans to do their own small black friday thing when IB 1.4 was released (I think) sometime in january/february


----------



## lljfnord

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So, it is remarkably hard to find a comparison of the Infinite Series to other libraries (or even that many third-party demos / walkthroughs of Infinite compared to the usual suspects - perhaps that will change with the latest updates). However, I did find some that I thought would be useful to share here:
> 
> *BRASS - Copland's Fanfare*
> 
> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f8a71c236835c73a79a6806/1602908663851/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3/original/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3 (Infinite Brass 1.5)
> CineBrass Core
> https://youtu.be/omV2BbaCrRM (Spitfire Symphonic Brass)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN94g0rjZ80 (Cinematic Studio Brass vs. Sampling Modeling Brass)
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ldhGc-8WhgDA-wq2SuaVZyoZkAz1Yzg4/view (Berlin Brass (courtesy of @shawnsingh))
> 
> *WOODS - Rite of Spring*
> 
> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f84806814861a26dd3a664b/1602512035487/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3/original/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3 (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt0ALmpNU2U (BBCSO)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVe-TAyzNsY (Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrwW0MPvqY (VSL Woodwinds)
> 
> Haven't found the pieces mocked up in Berlin Woodwinds, JXL Brass, or in Hollywood Orchestra unfortunately.


I listened through all of the examples, and here are my _personal_ opinions for top libraries (your mileage may vary):

Brass: Infinite Brass 1.5
Everything I heard is just *clean*. The trumpets were the only weak part, compared to several weaknesses with the other libraries.

Woodwinds: BBCSO
This library comes through mainly on the clarity of its clarinets. They were by far the cleanest of the lot, as were the oboes.

I give my ratings as an owner of IB 1.5 and IW 2.0, and I do so without buyer's remorse. I am happy with the purchases I made. I would merely like to see some improvements made to future versions in order for IW to catch up to BBCSO.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I like music said:


> One of my all-time favourite melodies. And you caught the expression perfectly! I like the ambience here. What did you do?


Mine too 🙂
The expression took me a while. I think that you really have to play with the velocity of each note to find the right accent/swell. I decided to follow advice given in this thread and use the hall (I forgot it’s name) and default mic settings and then just send everything through Valhalla room.


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Mine too 🙂
> The expression took me a while. I think that you really have to play with the velocity of each note to find the right accent/swell. I decided to follow advice given in this thread and use the hall (I forgot it’s name) and default mic settings and then just send everything through Valhalla room.



Yeah, the trumpet transitions were perfect for me, here. I shall try the same. I don't have valhalla, but will try the Studio IR + sending to a tail, and see what happens.


----------



## Mikro93

lljfnord said:


> Woodwinds: BBCSO
> This library comes through mainly on the clarity of its clarinets. They were by far the cleanest of the lot, as were the oboes.


Interesting! I dislike this version a lot, I hear phasing and legato transitions everywhere. VSL and IW take the cake for me. Each their own


----------



## Montisquirrel

You know what..... I just bought Infinite Woodwinds


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Ahh man, i'm getting really bad clicking sounds on playback when playing numerous instruments at once. I turned humanize off. CPU usage isn't spiking according to Reaper. Not sure why it does this.

EDIT: Became unplayable. All was fine until I stared recording and after that all I would get is the sounds covered in loud clicks and pops.


----------



## Jamus

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ahh man, i'm getting really bad clicking sounds on playback when playing numerous instruments at once. I turned humanize off. CPU usage isn't spiking according to Reaper. Not sure why it does this.
> 
> EDIT: Became unplayable. All was fine until I stared recording and after that all I would get is the sounds covered in loud clicks and pops.



Try raising your buffer size. My audio spazzes out as well when there are too many IW instruments at one time. If I raise the buffer from 64 to 128 I can get away with full IW tutti runs, not that I'd ever need to do that 😂

Also just a note on Reaper, if the piano roll is open with many tracks visible/editable it really messes up the audio. It never used to be that way. It makes me sad because for a time there I was able to get a lot of arranging done just by looking at the piano roll and editing every instrument on the go.

I actually worry about about how running a full Infinite template will go on the ol CPU, particularly something with a lot of notes going on 🤔


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

lljfnord said:


> I listened through all of the examples, and here are my _personal_ opinions for top libraries (your mileage may vary):
> 
> Brass: Infinite Brass 1.5
> Everything I heard is just *clean*. The trumpets were the only weak part, compared to several weaknesses with the other libraries.
> 
> Woodwinds: BBCSO
> This library comes through mainly on the clarity of its clarinets. They were by far the cleanest of the lot, as were the oboes.
> 
> I give my ratings as an owner of IB 1.5 and IW 2.0, and I do so without buyer's remorse. I am happy with the purchases I made. I would merely like to see some improvements made to future versions in order for IW to catch up to BBCSO.



Interesting! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I guess this is where it is all down to taste! For example, I thought IB sounded extremely thin and very synthy in the upper louder register for the Copland piece (compare it to Berlin Brass for example in that section). Cinebrass on the other hand sounded absolutely majestic to my ears - as many have commented over the years, brass on the Sony Stage is a match made in heaven. I don't think the Symphonic Brass mockup was particularly well done or mixed, so hard to say how good of a representation it is (the official demos on Spitfire's site sound phenomenal for example). I thought the CSB example was decent, but doesn't have the warmth of tone of some of the others (like CB, BB, or SSB), but I MUCH prefer the upper register of it to IB.

For the woodwinds, I think IW really shines in terms of agility here. It was a very clean (maybe too neutral) tone - certainly compared to something like BBCSO or SSW. Almost like a square wave without any fluctuation added. Something about the VSL programming / tone / mix bothered me, so wasn't digging that. Would probably choose BBCSO or SSW as my personal favorite here.

Anyway, this is why I mentioned tone is so important - you have to love the sound of the instrument you're working with. And luckily, we're spoiled for choice these days!


----------



## shawnsingh

ALittleNightMusic said:


> For example, I thought IB sounded extremely thin and very synthy in the upper louder register for the Copland piece (compare it to Berlin Brass for example in that section).



Actually, I think it might be tricky to compare pure-sampled libraries with these semi-modeled dry ones. The mixing and programming of the semi-modeled ones can make a huge difference in the style. From my use of IB, I do think 1.4 or 1.5 can be programmed to sound much more similar to Cinebrass or Berlin, if that's what the user wants.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

shawnsingh said:


> Actually, I think it might be tricky to compare pure-sampled libraries with these semi-modeled dry ones. The mixing and programming of the semi-modeled ones can make a huge difference in the style. From my use of IB, I do think 1.4 or 1.5 can be programmed to sound much more similar to Cinebrass or Berlin, if that's what the user wants.



Well, I’d love to hear that side by side across the register and dynamics if possible  Curious to know what adjustments are available for the tone (outside of the space IRs)?


----------



## shawnsingh

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well, I’d love to hear that side by side across the register and dynamics if possible  Curious to know what adjustments are available for the tone (outside of the space IRs)?



For this week, I already spent my quota of music time with mixing IW and IB  (I'll post something right now about that too) But I'll see about doing this over the weekend perhaps. It shouldn't take too long, since I already have MIDI from the Berlin version, it will mostly just be time of painting in CC1. I too am curious to see how it will sound!


----------



## shawnsingh

Here's a mix I think I like. I'd love to hear feedback, anything I should consider tweaking?

Attached mp3 files. quick riff on most of the solo instruments, followed by some toy ensemble examples to see how things sound together. Sorry, it gets louder at the end, please be careful with your ears.

Some notes:

The mix is Bersa mic mix #2.
Actually, I didn't use the mic mix, I just used the individual faders... because I think it might sound more natural to bump the faders inconsistently for the same instruments of an ensemble.
The version with reverb - I used Spaces 2 Hollywood scoring stage at around (-13 dB) -17 dB wet mix. I tried a few other verbs like Valhalla, Burbank scoring stage, and SF Hall. They all sound roughly similar, but there was something about the Hollywood stage that felt like it "melted" nicely into the existing Bursa sound.
I did use a "distance emulation" EQ, but it's just the same EQ for everything. The sound is fine without the EQ too but as a personal taste I just feel the non-EQ'd version has too much of a "proximity effect" due to the strong low mids. For me, the EQ'd version feels like it's at a more natural distance from the mics, and in turn, I feel this actually brings out some more nuance and "sweetness" instead of "body" to the tone. I get some of that "body" back with the choice of reverb that has a bit of emphasis on low-mids in the reverberation.
Eventually I would like to apply some "timbre sculpting" EQ on some of the individual instruments, too - the trombones don't feel like they get powerful and bright enough compared to the trumpets, alto and bass flute I wonder about. I think there's a good chance EQ can fix those issues.
A few minor places on low brass / oboe ensemble examples sound phasey, 100% my own laziness for not programming them individually or tweaking their CC separately.
I positioned the woodwinds more wide on the stage by using different IRs that the library provides (no other panning or anything). I know it's a bit wider than a natural orchestra but I think adds a very nice touch of depth when hearing the ensemble examples.

Overall, I'm really loving the woodwinds tone in Bersa. Brass is great too, I think, but I feel could be perfected even more, particularly balancing the bite.

Thoughts?


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Here's a mix I think I like. I'd love to hear feedback, anything I should consider tweaking?
> 
> Attached mp3 files. quick riff on most of the solo instruments, followed by some toy ensemble examples to see how things sound together. Sorry, it gets louder at the end, please be careful with your ears.
> 
> Some notes:
> 
> The mix is Bersa mic mix #2.
> Actually, I didn't use the mic mix, I just used the individual faders... because I think it might sound more natural to bump the faders inconsistently for the same instruments of an ensemble.
> The version with reverb - I used Spaces 2 Hollywood scoring stage at around (-13 dB) -17 dB wet mix. I tried a few other verbs like Valhalla, Burbank scoring stage, and SF Hall. They all sound roughly similar, but there was something about the Hollywood stage that felt like it "melted" nicely into the existing Bursa sound.
> I did use a "distance emulation" EQ, but it's just the same EQ for everything. The sound is fine without the EQ too but as a personal taste I just feel the non-EQ'd version has too much of a "proximity effect" due to the strong low mids. For me, the EQ'd version feels like it's at a more natural distance from the mics, and in turn, I feel this actually brings out some more nuance and "sweetness" instead of "body" to the tone. I get some of that "body" back with the choice of reverb that has a bit of emphasis on low-mids in the reverberation.
> Eventually I would like to apply some "timbre sculpting" EQ on some of the individual instruments, too - the trombones don't feel like they get powerful and bright enough compared to the trumpets, alto and bass flute I wonder about. I think there's a good chance EQ can fix those issues.
> A few minor places on low brass / oboe ensemble examples sound phasey, 100% my own laziness for not programming them individually or tweaking their CC separately.
> I positioned the woodwinds more wide on the stage by using different IRs that the library provides (no other panning or anything). I know it's a bit wider than a natural orchestra but I think adds a very nice touch of depth when hearing the ensemble examples.
> 
> Overall, I'm really loving the woodwinds tone in Bersa. Brass is great too, I think, but I feel could be perfected even more, particularly balancing the bite.
> 
> Thoughts?



Sounds like the sound I am always looking for in my mixes! So I shall be trying this at the weekend. btw that single EQ that you've got in place at this point ... I'm guessing that the previous EQs you had done to the different sections, those have gone for now and aren't in this mix?

Just checking because the biggest difference I see from memory is that the trombones here will have a very different sound since you haven't emphasised the highs (as its a catch-all type eq for now)


----------



## axb312

shawnsingh said:


> Here's a mix I think I like. I'd love to hear feedback, anything I should consider tweaking?
> 
> Attached mp3 files. quick riff on most of the solo instruments, followed by some toy ensemble examples to see how things sound together. Sorry, it gets louder at the end, please be careful with your ears.
> 
> Some notes:
> 
> The mix is Bersa mic mix #2.
> Actually, I didn't use the mic mix, I just used the individual faders... because I think it might sound more natural to bump the faders inconsistently for the same instruments of an ensemble.
> The version with reverb - I used Spaces 2 Hollywood scoring stage at around (-13 dB) -17 dB wet mix. I tried a few other verbs like Valhalla, Burbank scoring stage, and SF Hall. They all sound roughly similar, but there was something about the Hollywood stage that felt like it "melted" nicely into the existing Bursa sound.
> I did use a "distance emulation" EQ, but it's just the same EQ for everything. The sound is fine without the EQ too but as a personal taste I just feel the non-EQ'd version has too much of a "proximity effect" due to the strong low mids. For me, the EQ'd version feels like it's at a more natural distance from the mics, and in turn, I feel this actually brings out some more nuance and "sweetness" instead of "body" to the tone. I get some of that "body" back with the choice of reverb that has a bit of emphasis on low-mids in the reverberation.
> Eventually I would like to apply some "timbre sculpting" EQ on some of the individual instruments, too - the trombones don't feel like they get powerful and bright enough compared to the trumpets, alto and bass flute I wonder about. I think there's a good chance EQ can fix those issues.
> A few minor places on low brass / oboe ensemble examples sound phasey, 100% my own laziness for not programming them individually or tweaking their CC separately.
> I positioned the woodwinds more wide on the stage by using different IRs that the library provides (no other panning or anything). I know it's a bit wider than a natural orchestra but I think adds a very nice touch of depth when hearing the ensemble examples.
> 
> Overall, I'm really loving the woodwinds tone in Bersa. Brass is great too, I think, but I feel could be perfected even more, particularly balancing the bite.
> 
> Thoughts?



Trombones and Tuba sounded weird to me. Like they have to much attack or something (unnatural). Everything else sounded great. Particularly that Woodwinds bit after the individual instruments demo.


----------



## Max Bonsi

shawnsingh said:


> Actually, I think it might be tricky to compare pure-sampled libraries with these semi-modeled dry ones. The mixing and programming of the semi-modeled ones can make a huge difference in the style. From my use of IB, I do think 1.4 or 1.5 can be programmed to sound much more similar to Cinebrass or Berlin, if that's what the user wants.


I agree
In my opinion it's not totally correct to compare IB/IW to the famous ones pure-sampled lib
The joy of the Infinite series is that you have like a "real" instruments under your hands and not only samples loaded on a player; you have the freedom to play whatever is on your musical mind without k-switching, and for me this is priceless
Of course you have to sacrifice a percentage of sound, BUT if for having such a new way to compose virtual music on a daw this is the price, I am in!
And the beauty of this waste of percentage is that we all here are comparing this two types of libraries and nearly in the end the IB/IW instruments are almost identical in terms of sound to the pure-sampled ones, so, for me, I am sacrificing 10% (maybe less) to have such a wonderful opportunity
With a good use of just EQ and Reverbs you're in the business (in this case I highly recommend Mike Verta's Template Balancing)
Truth is I'm starting to put almost all the "old" libraries in the trash...and now my Template is only IW/(IB pretty soon)-Sample Modeling S&ES and Brass-MUsical Sampling Adventure Brass and Strings
But of course it's only me


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

I do not understand the logic in posting examples in MP3 format.
So much musical info is missing, making it hard to compare.
If you are trying to match the sound in another example that is MP3 then okay, I see it.
But to display how something sounds and then use MP3? No.

Not trying to start a “PC vs. Mac” debate btw.  I just always get frustrated when examples are posted in MP3. I want to hear everything, you know!


----------



## Scamper

shawnsingh said:


> Overall, I'm really loving the woodwinds tone in Bersa. Brass is great too, I think, but I feel could be perfected even more, particularly balancing the bite.



Thanks for those solo demos. I do like the sound here and Bersa hall sounds like a nice balance between size and detail. Looks like I'll be getting IB/IW at the next best opportunity.


----------



## I like music

Scamper said:


> Thanks for those solo demos. I do like the sound here and Bersa hall sounds like a nice balance between size and detail. Looks like I'll be getting IB/IW at the next best opportunity.



Bersa has a lovely clean sound. You get a good feeling for all the timbres of the instruments, I feel. It fell just short of the kind of ambience I tend to like in my virtual orchestras, so I went with Mozarteum for my last template. That also sounded great. Will be posting a full mockup of some cool Jerry Goldsmith in the next few weeks, using both Bersa, and separately Mozarteum, as tests.


----------



## DeCaffinated

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ahh man, i'm getting really bad clicking sounds on playback when playing numerous instruments at once. I turned humanize off. CPU usage isn't spiking according to Reaper. Not sure why it does this.
> 
> EDIT: Became unplayable. All was fine until I stared recording and after that all I would get is the sounds covered in loud clicks and pops.



Having just purchased, I have the same issue in FL Studio. However, it occurs only when I use Mozarteum Hall at a fast tempo. No spike in CPU usage, but it comes out drenched in clicks. Curious.


----------



## Sean J

My EQ settings with 1.5 are all about taming the trumpet bite and giving the horns, trumpets, and tenor bones more low body. Nothing dramatic like in the past. It's all very good, just a bit bright for my taste. I care more about having more room options honestly. Some slap back, some colorful modulating acoustic joy... it's not bad at all, but I notice the lack of room on some high dynamic accents.

It's worth saying I feel like a spoiled fat kid saying "well, it COULD use more butter if you want my honest opinion". I mean, these updates are brilliant. I notice these things because I have an ear, NOT because they are problems that can't be worked with. Compared to the issues I have with other libraries, I'm still QUITE happy.

Aaron, more butter... please.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

hbjdk said:


> I do not understand the logic in posting examples in MP3 format.
> So much musical info is missing, making it hard to compare.
> If you are trying to match the sound in another example that is MP3 then okay, I see it.
> But to display how something sounds and then use MP3? No.
> 
> Not trying to start a “PC vs. Mac” debate btw.  I just always get frustrated when examples are posted in MP3. I want to hear everything, you know!



Well, the sample developers themselves provide demos for their products as MP3s. But if you feel you will be able to tell the difference, please feel free to add WAV comparisons to this thread!

Also, re. the logic - it's because 99.9% of listeners won't be able to discern the difference between a high bitrate MP3 and a WAV file.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> Sounds like the sound I am always looking for in my mixes! So I shall be trying this at the weekend. btw that single EQ that you've got in place at this point ... I'm guessing that the previous EQs you had done to the different sections, those have gone for now and aren't in this mix?
> 
> Just checking because the biggest difference I see from memory is that the trombones here will have a very different sound since you haven't emphasised the highs (as its a catch-all type eq for now)



Yeah, gone for now. This is the only EQ so far. But I'm fairly certain I'll try to EQ a few individual instruments over time.



I like music said:


> Will be posting a full mockup of some cool Jerry Goldsmith in the next few weeks, using both Bersa, and separately Mozarteum, as tests.



Looking forward to it =) FYI if you use a MIDI controller to control the Studio/Bersa/Mozarteum choice for all instruments at once, beware I've had some issues where many instruments don't change to the correct IRs. The interface may say that it changed, but then somehow they're still playing a different venue IR. So it may be best to do each instrument manually and audition while changing them.



axb312 said:


> Trombones and Tuba sounded weird to me. Like they have to much attack or something (unnatural). Everything else sounded great. Particularly that Woodwinds bit after the individual instruments demo.



Thanks for the feedback! Will work on the low brass. Which specific time did you feel was unnatural?



hbjdk said:


> I do not understand the logic in posting examples in MP3 format.
> So much musical info is missing, making it hard to compare.
> If you are trying to match the sound in another example that is MP3 then okay, I see it.
> But to display how something sounds and then use MP3? No.
> 
> Not trying to start a “PC vs. Mac” debate btw.  I just always get frustrated when examples are posted in MP3. I want to hear everything, you know!



These mp3s are 320 kbps and already 8 MB each. 16-bit wav files will be 4x the file size. I could try FLAC, it'd probably be still 2-3x the file size? Too bad Cubase 9.5 doesn't support rendering to AAC ...

But, for what it's worth, I won't disagree about the risk of compression artifacts with mp3, even at 320 kbps, but it should be mostly benign and not lose musical info. To my ears, not specifically looking for compression artifacts, I can hear the mix details as clearly as I can on my DAW. =)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

shawnsingh said:


> Overall, I'm really loving the woodwinds tone in Bersa. Brass is great too, I think, but I feel could be perfected even more, particularly balancing the bite.
> 
> Thoughts?



Generally agree with this sentiment! I do think there is a tonal difference in the woodwinds to something like Berlin Woodwinds, Spitfire, etc. (as do they have a difference to each other). But some folks may prefer IW in that sense.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> I'll try to EQ a few individual instruments over tim


Very much like your ear, so if you do find individual EQs you'd like, I'd love to know what you've done.


shawnsingh said:


> The interface may say that it changed, but then somehow they're still playing a different venue IR.


Might explain a thing or two, haha!


shawnsingh said:


> Looking forward to it =)


Yeah, The Enterprise from TMP. Doesn't get much better than that (or daunting, when it comes to mockup)


----------



## Sean J

** WARNING, OPINIONS PRESENT **



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well, the sample developers themselves provide demos for their products as MP3s. But if you feel you will be able to tell the difference, please feel free to add WAV comparisons to this thread!



StaffPad isn't using high res WAV files. Why? Cause people don't care, don't know, can't hear, and so on. We like to claim we can, but no.

I have perfect pitch. I can also hear below 20Hz. Sure, our ears and brains all work differently to a point (not better, just different). But 8Hz and 10Hz are quite similar in a way. They both rumble more than they pronounce clear pitches. One just rumbles louder (to my ear, obviously) and cycles faster. My wife recognizes no difference at all.

Thing is, I hear more difference in an MP3 of Mahler's 8th, on a system with a good sub... where I can actually hear the organ do it's thing properly... more difference on a different pair of monitors, than I do from the 192kHz surround recording I have of it and the MP3 version. Sure, I notice ultra subtle details from time to time between various things people debate (not always, for that matter), but I tend to suspect anyone else hearing things is hearing at least some similar degree of subtle that just doesn't matter enough to worry about, whether it's for a product demo or listening enjoyment.

I'm not trying to sound like a snob, quite the opposite actually. I've heard more people without good pitch complain about accordions than people who recognize much more detail. If the accordion bothers someone, can they not enjoy a scale of 17 tones equally tempered, or Motet from who knows what century, where the 3rd isn't what we know today? I enjoy it all. And if I can note such detail and enjoy it, then surely someone who doesn't know what hit them can enjoy it too, no?

Sorry for all the philosophy, opinion, and contemplating... I just wonder what it is that people are having issues with. I just don't hear problems. I hear differences. Small, hardly mattering, differences.


----------



## I like music

Sean J said:


> ** WARNING, OPINIONS PRESENT **
> 
> 
> 
> StaffPad isn't using high res WAV files. Why? Cause people don't care, don't know, can't hear, and so on. We like to claim we can, but no.
> 
> I have perfect pitch. I can also hear below 20Hz. Sure, our ears and brains all work differently to a point (not better, just different). But 8Hz and 10Hz are quite similar in a way. They both rumble more than they pronounce clear pitches. One just rumbles louder (to my ear, obviously) and cycles faster. My wife recognizes no difference at all.
> 
> Thing is, I hear more difference in an MP3 of Mahler's 8th, on a system with a good sub... where I can actually hear the organ do it's thing properly... more difference on a different pair of monitors, than I do from the 192kHz surround recording I have of it and the MP3 version. Sure, I notice ultra subtle details from time to time between various things people debate (not always, for that matter), but I tend to suspect anyone else hearing things is hearing at least some similar degree of subtle that just doesn't matter enough to worry about, whether it's for a product demo or listening enjoyment.
> 
> I'm not trying to sound like a snob, quite the opposite actually. I've heard more people without good pitch complain about accordions than people who recognize much more detail. If the accordion bothers someone, can they not enjoy a scale of 17 tones equally tempered, or Motet from who knows what century, where the 3rd isn't what we know today? I enjoy it all. And if I can note such detail and enjoy it, then surely someone who doesn't know what hit them can enjoy it too, no?
> 
> Sorry for all the philosophy, opinion, and contemplating... I just wonder what it is that people are having issues with. I just don't hear problems. I hear differences. Small, hardly mattering, differences.



So are you saying that the strings will be released before December?
On an unrelated note, I'd love to have perfect pitch. At this point, I'd love to have decent relative pitch, which I just don't, so I envy those who _do _have problems!


----------



## Be_Sharp

I just did a quick mockup of 16 bars from Mike Verta's "The Race" using Infinite Brass, Infinite Woodwinds, Spitfire Symphonic Strings and Berlin Strings, and Spitfire Harp. 

For comparison, here is the link to the original recorded on the Newman Scoring Stage. The section i mocked up starts at about 36".


----------



## DANIELE

Is there someone able to reproduce this two runs here:




They are pretty simple but I'm not able to get this "feeling".

There is something in that sound I'm not able to reproduce, mine sounds fake. I don't know if it is a matter of position in the panorama, dinamycs and so on...

Those flutes are sharp, yuo can hear them clearly, mine seem muffled. In that track they are ringing, literally. I can't reach that level.

I tried already some advices I get in the other thread but since it is a commercial one I would like to keep studying for a solution here.

Maybe @aaronventure himself could be helpful in this pursuit for perfection.

Thank you.

EDIT

Maybe I get something, I was writing the notes legato but writing them staccato result in a more airy sound and, I'm not a flute player, I think they play a flute like this in real life for fast passages.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DeCaffinated said:


> Having just purchased, I have the same issue in FL Studio. However, it occurs only when I use Mozarteum Hall at a fast tempo. No spike in CPU usage, but it comes out drenched in clicks. Curious.


I emailed Aaron and he gave me a few things to try when it happens to occur again. I haven't used the low brass since then, but hopefully there's a fix.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Let's talk about the Infinite *oboes (version 2.0)*. I agree that they sound *too thin*. I think one of the reasons is a weak first partial, so I tried EQ.

Send the oboes (but not the cor anglais) to their own Kontakt output so you can put a 2-band EQ on them:

- 60 Hz, 0.33 octaves, -9 dB
- 200 Hz, 0.33 octaves, +18 dB

The above should raise the low frequencies and join the plateau at about 1 kHz.

Please let me know what you think of the result!

Since you are already there, add to the same Kontakt output a *TapeSaturator*. Use the factory preset "Soft Saturation HQ".

What do you hear? What if you combine it with the EQ?

If you hear an increase in low noise, add a high pass "SV HP4" at 80 Hz.

Changing the subject, here is how I am mixing the woodwinds right now.

a. If I had to choose a single microphone and no extra reverb, it would be the Mozarteum with main microphone. But it has a bit too much reverberation for my taste and Reaper reports 0.9% CPU usage.

b. The above sounds very close to Mixed Mic #3 of the Mozarteum. Same CPU usage.

c. Now if I can send to a Valhalla Room instance, then I choose Studio with the Ambient microphone. This uses only 0.7% CPU, probably because of a shorter impulse response. The sound is close to the above alternatives, but I have better control over the reverberation. Valhalla in Bright Room mode with 40 ms predelay and 1.90 sec decay sounds very good to me. I send an amount that makes it a bit less wet than the Mozarteum.

d. The above sounds very close to Mixed Mic #5 of the Studio, also with 0.7% CPU, sent to Valhalla Room, which is what I think I'll be using. The distant microphone helps civilize the oboe; for other instruments I might choose a closer microphone -- number 4 or even 3.

If I save 0.2% CPU times 12 woodwinds, that's 2.4% CPU, or the ability to play 3 extra woodwinds, or 2/3 of one Sample Modeling Strings section... Or instantiate 12 new Valhallas. So the savings are not negligible...

About sending MP3 files: *MP3 is a very obsolete format and codec*, we've had at least 3 new generations since MP3. Almost *any other format is preferable* because it will store better audio in half the file length: *ogg/vorbis, ogg/opus, aac...* your choice. I believe many browsers -- and all game engines -- support ogg/vorbis. The artifacts that are so easy to hear in MP3 if the track has drums are gone in all these formats at half the file size!

And if you want lossless audio, use FLAC. Why would you store anything in old WAV???

There is *no reason to generate an MP3 file* today. None.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Here's another little snippet of music I made using Infinite Brass.

By the way, I had experienced the crackling again when playing the brass in and recording, I tried pressing the large exclamation mark at the top right of kontakt as well as change the room to bersa hall instead and one of those seems to have fixed the problem for now...


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> So are you saying that the strings will be released before December?
> On an unrelated note, I'd love to have perfect pitch. At this point, I'd love to have decent relative pitch, which I just don't, so I envy those who _do _have problems!



Ha. Yes. Yes I am.

I rarely ever mention it as some get hostile as if I thought I was superior over it. Some people sight read fugues. Some people are Aaron, and have their own wizardry in music. To each their own. But I've heard soprano's go slightly sharp and for whatever reason it sounded more interesting for it given the musical context when it happened. Perfection is less about flawlessness as it is about rich complexity.

On a perfection-related note... ever heard of Infinite Woodwinds?


----------



## shawnsingh

About this mp3 debate. Actually, audio transcoding is my day job.  So of course I felt compelled to write a huge essay explaining my view and sharing knowledge. So I branched that to a separate thread, and I also created a listening example with a poll, so you can test yourself if you think you can hear the difference between the mp3 and the wav.

For that discussion, please go here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/mp3-discussion-branched-from-infinite-series-thread.100009/

Cheers!


----------



## Bluemount Score

shawnsingh said:


> About this mp3 debate. Actually, audio transcoding is my day job.  So of course I felt compelled to write a huge essay explaining my view and sharing knowledge. So I branched that to a separate thread, and I also created a listening example with a poll, so you can test yourself if you think you can hear the difference between the mp3 and the wav.
> 
> For that discussion, please go here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/mp3-discussion-branched-from-infinite-series-thread.100009/
> 
> Cheers!


Did my vote. Those samples in the demos you posted sound amazing btw


----------



## Bluemount Score

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Here's another little snippet of music I made using Infinite Brass.
> 
> By the way, I had experienced the crackling again when playing the brass in and recording, I tried pressing the large exclamation mark at the top right of kontakt as well as change the room to bersa hall instead and one of those seems to have fixed the problem for now...



Did you add an additional room tone layer?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Bluemount Score said:


> Did you add an additional room tone layer?


It all goes through one instance of Valhalla room


----------



## Bluemount Score

NeonMediaKJT said:


> It all goes through one instance of Valhalla room


Alright, but where does the constant white noise come from? The samples? I thought you added an "empty room-recording" over the whole track to make silent parts not sound 100% silent, which can feel odd / unrealistic in orchestral music.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Bluemount Score said:


> Alright, but where does the constant white noise come from? The samples? I thought you added an "empty room-recording" over the whole track to make silent parts not sound 100% silent, which can feel odd / unrealistic in orchestral music.


Ohhh sorry, yes that’s the cinesamples room tone. At first I thought you meant reverb.


----------



## Bluemount Score

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ohhh sorry, yes that’s the cinesamples room tone. At first I thought you meant reverb.


Guessed it! I would appreciate if more developers would offer a room tone recording of there spaces, just as Cinesamples did... but for somehow the simplest things are sometimes the hardest to be found. Nevermind, different topic.


----------



## MrHassanSan

So, two days ago I got Infinite Winds since I needed a new woods library for a project. .......

*GOODNESS.* I didn't realize just how much I *hate* working with keyswitches until I started playing around with IW. It's so intuitive. Loved it so much that I immediately went back and bought IB as well, which I also love dearly now.


----------



## I like music

Funny how this thread started as a kind of "why don't we hear so much about infinite?" and now it has probably become a sales channel because it is always on page 1 lol


----------



## Kent

I feel like somebody should mock this up


----------



## gedlig

kmaster said:


> I feel like somebody should mock this up



For some reason I immediately thought this would be an orchestral cover of Sum 41 fat lip


----------



## gedlig

Okay, so the graphic for IS changed to 2021


----------



## I like music

gedlig said:


> Okay, so the graphic for IS changed to 2021



Good spot! Had guessed it might happen. A shame but then it means I can spend more time learning IW and IB hopefully. Interesting that it doesn't get more specific than 2021. Makes me think it could be towards the end of the year, even!


----------



## gedlig

I like music said:


> Good spot! Had guessed it might happen. A shame but then it means I can spend more time learning IW and IB hopefully. Interesting that it doesn't get more specific than 2021. Makes me think it could be towards the end of the year, even!


While it's sad, it also means I won't have to spend 1k+ in a single purchase for all 3 libraries this year (damn 21% VAT and an eastern european public sector salary) :D

Even if it's released at the end of next year, maybe it will give Aaron enough time to nail the tone and funcionality for people to not write it off on release in favour of tradicional libraries only because of the tone


----------



## I like music

gedlig said:


> While it's sad, it also means I won't have to spend 1k+ in a single purchase for all 3 libraries this year (damn 21% VAT and an eastern european public sector salary) :D
> 
> Even if it's released at the end of next year, maybe it will give Aaron enough time to nail the tone and funcionality for people to not write it off on release in favour of tradicional libraries only because of the tone


Yep! Do it in bits and pieces. Existing owners always seem to get the package deal so there's no losing out even if you don't buy all at once. 

Fingers crossed on the tone etc. I believe this will be by far the hardest one to nail for Aaron!


----------



## DANIELE

gedlig said:


> Okay, so the graphic for IS changed to 2021


----------



## ansthenia

I like music said:


> Good spot! Had guessed it might happen. A shame but then it means I can spend more time learning IW and IB hopefully. Interesting that it doesn't get more specific than 2021. Makes me think it could be towards the end of the year, even!


The FAQ section says Q1 -

_"Infinite Strings are currently in development. Current estimate is Q1 2021. This may change during development"_









FAQ — Aaron Venture


Frequently asked questions about Infinite Series.




www.aaronventure.com





So even if his estimate does change, I doubt it will be so much as to be released at the end of 2021


----------



## I like music

ansthenia said:


> The FAQ section says Q1 -
> 
> _"Infinite Strings are currently in development. Current estimate is Q1 2021. This may change during development"_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FAQ — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> Frequently asked questions about Infinite Series.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So even if his estimate does change, I doubt it will be so much as to be released at the end of 2021



Completely missed that! Thanks for giving us some hope!


----------



## Kent

I like music said:


> Completely missed that! Thanks for giving us some hope!


Then again, we had a Black Friday 2019 sale in April 2020. 

Good thing the wait is always worth it


----------



## I like music

kmaster said:


> Then again, we had a Black Friday 2019 sale in April 2020.
> 
> Good thing the wait is always worth it



Absolutely! And so begins the constant bumping from now until April 2021!
My real question is: does this drop before CSW?


----------



## pierrevigneron

Sorry but... What does "q1" means?


----------



## Kent

pierrevigneron said:


> Sorry but... What does "q1" means?


first quarter of the year (January - March)


----------



## Jamus

Aw shoot. But honestly I enjoy the anticipation 😁


----------



## DANIELE

Speaking of waiting, where is @doctoremmet? We haven't seen it for some time now. I hope he is fine.


----------



## Sean J

DANIELE said:


> Speaking of waiting, where is @doctoremmet? We haven't seen it for some time now. I hope he is fine.



The news of IS was too much for him.


----------



## I like music

Hey guys - just heard from him.

His health deteriorated considerably it would seem, and he had to go in for more heart surgery. He said I was OK to mention all this. But he is on a rehab program and feeling better. Says he's very tired and cannot do activity for more than an hour, but that he's absolutely loving IW 2.0. He's working on a few things he wants to post on here, but it'll take time, given his condition.

Also, he mentioned he was banned. No idea why. I won't ask or go on about it here, as it could derail things massively and probably isn't something to be discussed here. Perhaps worth connecting with him directly to see how he's doing in terms of his health, as it sounds like he could use some good will and wishes.

Anyhow, he's enjoying the libraries which is the important part here.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Hey guys - just heard from him.
> 
> His health deteriorated considerably it would seem, and he had to go in for more heart surgery. He said I was OK to mention all this. But he is on a rehab program and feeling better. Says he's very tired and cannot do activity for more than an hour, but that he's absolutely loving IW 2.0. He's working on a few things he wants to post on here, but it'll take time, given his condition.
> 
> Also, he mentioned he was banned. No idea why. I won't ask or go on about it here, as it could derail things massively and probably isn't something to be discussed here. Perhaps worth connecting with him directly to see how he's doing in terms of his health, as it sounds like he could use some good will and wishes.
> 
> Anyhow, he's enjoying the libraries which is the important part here.



I remember he talked about some health problems, this is why I was concerned about him not showing up. Thank you for telling us and sorry for the OT.


----------



## MartinH.

I like music said:


> Hey guys - just heard from him.
> 
> His health deteriorated considerably it would seem, and he had to go in for more heart surgery. He said I was OK to mention all this. But he is on a rehab program and feeling better. Says he's very tired and cannot do activity for more than an hour, but that he's absolutely loving IW 2.0. He's working on a few things he wants to post on here, but it'll take time, given his condition.
> 
> Also, he mentioned he was banned. No idea why. I won't ask or go on about it here, as it could derail things massively and probably isn't something to be discussed here. Perhaps worth connecting with him directly to see how he's doing in terms of his health, as it sounds like he could use some good will and wishes.
> 
> Anyhow, he's enjoying the libraries which is the important part here.



Get well soon @doctoremmet! My best wishes for a quick and full recovery!
I can't imagine why you'd be banned. if you don't know either, it must have been some mistake, which I'm sure Mike would fix if you email him.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Any ideas how to make the horns sound a little less roomy but still sound like it's in a room? lol. I tried messing with the mic positions, but it seems I can only get a very roomy sound, or a sound that's just a dry sample in reverb.


----------



## shawnsingh

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Any ideas how to make the horns sound a little less roomy but still sound like it's in a room? lol. I tried messing with the mic positions, but it seems I can only get a very roomy sound, or a sound that's just a dry sample in reverb.



Well it will be subjective, but have you tried Bersa? I have fallen in love with mic mix 2 as a starting point.


----------



## shawnsingh

@doctoremmet wish you the best of health...


----------



## Kent

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Any ideas how to make the horns sound a little less roomy but still sound like it's in a room? lol. I tried messing with the mic positions, but it seems I can only get a very roomy sound, or a sound that's just a dry sample in reverb.


I do wish there were a stage setting more like Sony, Fox, or Abbey Road. I like big but not super-wet spaces—really helps with sound localization.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

kmaster said:


> I do wish there were a stage setting more like Sony, Fox, or Abbey Road. I like big but not super-wet spaces—really helps with sound localization.


Same. I love the sound of the horns from mid-low dynamics, but when you push them all the way, they have that dry sample caked in reverb kinda tone. I heard he was adding another convolution space, is that true?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

shawnsingh said:


> Well it will be subjective, but have you tried Bersa? I have fallen in love with mic mix 2 as a starting point.


I didn't even notice the mic mixes. I'd just been manually changing them.


----------



## Jamus

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I didn't even notice the mic mixes. I'd just been manually changing them.


These also save on CPU!


----------



## Jamus

Jamus said:


> These also save on CPU!



Also I want to mention that as far as audio breaking up goes it seems that if I remove Pro Q 3 from my Infinite Woodwinds tracks it makes a HUGE difference to the performance. Weird!?


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Hey guys - just heard from him.
> 
> His health deteriorated considerably it would seem, and he had to go in for more heart surgery. He said I was OK to mention all this. But he is on a rehab program and feeling better. Says he's very tired and cannot do activity for more than an hour, but that he's absolutely loving IW 2.0. He's working on a few things he wants to post on here, but it'll take time, given his condition.
> 
> Also, he mentioned he was banned. No idea why. I won't ask or go on about it here, as it could derail things massively and probably isn't something to be discussed here. Perhaps worth connecting with him directly to see how he's doing in terms of his health, as it sounds like he could use some good will and wishes.
> 
> Anyhow, he's enjoying the libraries which is the important part here.



He's banned...
Daniel James is back...
IS is delayed to 2021...

I think I finally get it. No, really. I see the pattern. 2020 = Groundhog day + April Fool's day.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Since a snippet from the flute solo for the Harry Potter score was posted using IW 2.0, I ran across this recent mockup of the same bit with VSL Synchronized Woodwinds, which may provide a helpful comparison.


----------



## I like music

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Since a snippet from the flute solo for the Harry Potter score was posted using IW 2.0, I ran across this recent mockup of the same bit with VSL Synchronized Woodwinds, which may provide a helpful comparison.




As an owner of Berlin and Infinite, I'd say the only other woodwinds that interest me are VSL's. I wouldn't actually buy them given that I have IW, but to me they must have some of the best in the market. In fact, if I could, I'd swap my Berlin ones out for VSL.


----------



## PerryD

I updated a WIP with Infinite English Horn, Clarinet, Flute, Bass Clarinet, French Horns and Trombones. Fun to play!


----------



## El Buhdai

I know I'm late to responding to this, but I hope @doctoremmet gets well soon. I can't imagine why he's banned because he's always been respectful, kind, and a joy to interact with on these forums. I wish him a speedy recovery and I hope we can hear from him again soon.


----------



## Jamus

Since IS has been pushed back I went ahead and picked up IB with bundle crossgrade discount! I feel like I've been cheated by other developers because I have this PC with more RAM than anyone other than a sample library enthusiast could need but now have little use for it 😂 The sample library an RAM industries were obviously collaborators in this conspiracy to make the big bucks 👽


----------



## John R Wilson

Ok, I've just purchased both Infinite Woods and Brass. After using Performance Samples Con Moto I've remembered how important and nice it is to just have some really playable libraries and after following Aarons libraries for quite some time I decided to go for it!! Wont be buying any more sample libraries for quite a long time now!!


----------



## shawnsingh

Well this test demo file served another purpose lately, since I started to check the tone in my car while taking my 20-month-old son to day care. Now he's been asking for "sym-ponic" music, and then I play him this demo he can recognize the instruments:

"flutt!" "cwaririrwet!" "baaaa...SOOOON!" "horn! beep beep!" "tooba!" 

He also likes "banana" (piano) music.


----------



## John R Wilson

Ok I've had a very brief play with it and dam this is brilliant, I was not expecting it to be as good sounding as this as well!! It all sounds great and considering its ram footprint its quite amazing. The playability is the best I have used of any library and gone is any issues with crossfades or bumpy legatos!! Its just a joy to play, this approach with more solid programming is the way forward in my view. You can actually interject your own performance and expression into it and that is probably one of the best ways to bring life and realism to a sample mock-up and Aaron libraries really fulfil this. I can probably run this thing on my small laptop, crazy!! As for tone and realism of sound, I do prefer some of my other libraries in this regard but considering these libraries footprint, playability and overall sound its pretty amazing.


----------



## Jamus

shawnsingh said:


> Well this test demo file served another purpose lately, since I started to check the tone in my car while taking my 20-month-old son to day care. Now he's been asking for "sym-ponic" music, and then I play him this demo he can recognize the instruments:
> 
> "flutt!" "cwaririrwet!" "baaaa...SOOOON!" "horn! beep beep!" "tooba!"
> 
> He also likes "banana" (piano) music.



The romantic/late romantic bananists were who inspired me to really start putting time and effort into my banana technique 👍


----------



## lucor

On a side note, does anyone know of any REAPER scripts that allow you to randomize/humanize _note lengths_ and add random subtle_ pitch bend_ data to a track?


----------



## Markrs

lucor said:


> On a side note, does anyone know of any REAPER scripts that allow you to randomize/humanize _note lengths_ and add random subtle_ pitch bend_ data to a track?


Reaper does have a built in humanise feature but I think that is positioning rather than length. I did find a forum thread that might be useful. Though again it doesn't mention note lengths https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=222188 it also mentions JS: IX/MIDI_Wobulator which effects pitch bend


----------



## stfciu

I like music said:


> Hey guys - just heard from him.
> 
> His health deteriorated considerably it would seem, and he had to go in for more heart surgery. He said I was OK to mention all this. But he is on a rehab program and feeling better. Says he's very tired and cannot do activity for more than an hour, but that he's absolutely loving IW 2.0. He's working on a few things he wants to post on here, but it'll take time, given his condition.
> 
> Also, he mentioned he was banned. No idea why. I won't ask or go on about it here, as it could derail things massively and probably isn't something to be discussed here. Perhaps worth connecting with him directly to see how he's doing in terms of his health, as it sounds like he could use some good will and wishes.
> 
> Anyhow, he's enjoying the libraries which is the important part here.


I must admit I am suprised as well. Mr Doctor was always polite and honest in his posts so I am keen to see some explanation from the Admin here, cause now I fear for myself 

I wish him quick recovery and hopefuly he will be back here as well.

Br 

Sebastian


----------



## Beans

stfciu said:


> I must admit I am suprised as well. Mr Doctor was always polite and honest in his posts so I am keen to see some explanation from the Admin here, cause now I fear for myself



I'm not really sure any of the admins owe us anything, much less in that regard. There was a bit of an ugly thread a few weeks ago. Offending posts (from multiple individuals, I believe) were removed. It was handled.


----------



## Jamus

lucor said:


> On a side note, does anyone know of any REAPER scripts that allow you to randomize/humanize _note lengths_ and add random subtle_ pitch bend_ data to a track?



Not sure about note lengths but for humanize "JS: MIDI Velocity and Timing Humanizer" and for pitch "JS: MIDI Tool V2". I believe these are both already included with Reaper.

I don't think the pitch is as random as it should be but it's okay. The humanizer is only okay as well and sometimes seems to have trouble when using more than one at a time? I could be using it wrong though. I typically use these as Input FX so that it records the cc data along with my M-Audio keyboard 👍 if you use them as a regular insert you will hear the effect but obviously not see what it's doing, which is fine if you won't be making edits.


----------



## RaztoR

Been quietly following this thread for a long time, seen it spiral towards pseudo-insanity as impatience and hype grew to an all-time high before the recent release of the library updates. It was rather amusing.

Now that I've gotten my hands on the libraries, I'm excited to implement them in an ongoing project of mine and test their capabilities. With that said, there's a brass technique that I wanted to try and replicate using IB:



0:00 - 0:17. Listen to those percussive brass hits marked with x on their note heads. Are the trombones using mutes? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time.


----------



## TGV

I've been playing a bit more with IB, on the more brassy side. I've taken a bit of a licence, an Infinite Licence you might say, with a certain, well known piece of film music.

One thing I found annoying over the course of mocking this up was that certain parts rarely play back in the same way. Especially the parts with high dynamics and short notes, or when mutes are involved. You can manipulate them until they sound perfect, but 10 seconds later, they can sound differently, often losing notes in a chord.

Anyway, I'm curious if you've got any good tips to improve it. Transcription was by ear and using a page with a few bars from another arrangement.


----------



## Geocranium

Once again singing my praises to IB. Here's the finished up version of the track I was writing. I don't think I have anything in my arsenal that could do the little trombone bit at the end convincingly.


----------



## shawnsingh

Geocranium said:


> Once again singing my praises to IB. Here's the finished up version of the track I was writing. I don't think I have anything in my arsenal that could do the little trombone bit at the end convincingly.



Hah, love this one =) Only thing, my whole body was itching to have the trumpets play just a bit more staccato on their eighth notes. And the timpani rolls broke my immersion. Great programming and flair though!


----------



## Geocranium

shawnsingh said:


> Hah, love this one =) Only thing, my whole body was itching to have the trumpets play just a bit more staccato on their eighth notes. And the timpani rolls broke my immersion. Great programming and flair though!



Thanks! I wanted to iterate more on it by my client needed it done the end of the weekend, so I'll have to live with it for the time being, haha.


----------



## shawnsingh

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well, I’d love to hear that side by side across the register and dynamics if possible  Curious to know what adjustments are available for the tone (outside of the space IRs)?



OK, as requested, a different version of Copland Fanfare for Infinite Brass attached. My EQ settings might still be making this slightly too bright sounding, not sure. OT percussion is almost the same as the Berlin version I made, but mixed with the same reverb used on the brass attempting to glue them a bit.

You're asking about adjustments to tone
- EQ: very gradual slopes across wide regions of frequency spectrum are useful to sculpt tone/distance
- Saving a few extra instruments for layering when you really need to pack a punch - in this case, I added piccolo trumpet and trumpet 4 near the climax and end.
- very slight pitch bend, more than the humanize gets us from Aaron's default settings.
- a bit of manual "modulation" on the pitch bend, like a chorus effect. literally like manually drawn slopes/oscillations. Especially on sustained notes, trying to emulate how the players continue to hunt for good intonation with each other. This helps get that more "brassy ensemble" sound in a few places.
- lots of little CC curves that dip into max levels to make nice marcato articulations.
- Used cubase logical editor to randomize note timings a bit, but I overdid it and manually had to reign it back in. In retrospect that worked out even better than just randomizing would have.


----------



## CT

I don't think that sounds too bright at all. The big stuff towards the end doesn't have the overwhelming buzz of the original demo. But I think it's all a bit too distant, especially compared to the percussion. Just seems like the perspective and balances are off. Promising sound though....



RaztoR said:


> Are the trombones using mutes?



Those are all samples of course, but yes I believe the brass is "muted," either sampled or EQ'd to sound like it.


----------



## DivingInSpace

shawnsingh said:


> - very slight pitch bend, more than the humanize gets us from Aaron's default settings.
> - a bit of manual "modulation" on the pitch bend, like a chorus effect. literally like manually drawn slopes/oscillations. Especially on sustained notes, trying to emulate how the players continue to hunt for good intonation with each other. This helps get that more "brassy ensemble" sound in a few places.


Can you maybe share a screenshot of this automation? I'd be curious to see how you did it. As a non brass player, details like these don't come easy, so this could be a huge help.


----------



## DANIELE

Mike T said:


> Those are all samples of course, but yes I believe the brass is "muted," either sampled or EQ'd to sound like it.



Yeah I think the same but I'm not a brass player nor a professional musician, they seems more EQed than muted. Anyway to do that kind of staccato/percussive sound I would use trombones stacked with cimbassi now that they are present. I already tried that and it sound so powerful. If you want a louder result you could think of layering them with BTrombones and CBTrombones. If you want the loudest layer them with tuba and euphonium too, then your monitors will explode.


----------



## CT

DANIELE said:


> Yeah I think the same but I'm not a brass player nor a professional musician, they seems more EQed than muted.



Yep, I can't say for sure right now, but some of those older brass samples Jeremy uses occasionally have that quasi-muted sound which I've always assumed was the result of mute emulation. Not sure.


----------



## Woodie1972

TGV said:


> I've been playing a bit more with IB, on the more brassy side. I've taken a bit of a licence, an Infinite Licence you might say, with a certain, well known piece of film music.
> 
> One thing I found annoying over the course of mocking this up was that certain parts rarely play back in the same way. Especially the parts with high dynamics and short notes, or when mutes are involved. You can manipulate them until they sound perfect, but 10 seconds later, they can sound differently, often losing notes in a chord.
> 
> Anyway, I'm curious if you've got any good tips to improve it. Transcription was by ear and using a page with a few bars from another arrangement.



I didn't listen yet to your mock-up, but what probably happens with missing notes is that they are repeated notes. The library needs a small gap between two repeated notes, otherwise it may not play the note properly. Sometimes it is okay, sometimes it simply doesn't sound. 

For me the library is more difficult to control with the attack of the notes, especially in notation software and secondly it's not always that easy to blend it well with other libraries in the mix. I've been messing with mic positions, late and early reflections under the hood, tried several brands of reverb, but it still sounds as if IB and IW are in a totally different room than my strings and percussion. 
The playability of the library is amazing, not to have to work with keyswitches is a relief, but there are a few things that make it difficult to work with.


----------



## DANIELE

Mike T said:


> Yep, I can't say for sure right now, but some of those older brass samples Jeremy uses occasionally have that quasi-muted sound which I've always assumed was the result of mute emulation. Not sure.



I like more the non-muted sound anyway, it is deeper and I think it gives more power to the staccatos.



Woodie1972 said:


> I didn't listen yet to your mock-up, but what probably happens with missing notes is that they are repeated notes. The library needs a small gap between two repeated notes, otherwise it may not play the note properly. Sometimes it is okay, sometimes it simply doesn't sound.
> 
> For me the library is more difficult to control with the attack of the notes, especially in notation software and secondly it's not always that easy to blend it well with other libraries in the mix. I've been messing with mic positions, late and early reflections under the hood, tried several brands of reverb, but it still sounds as if IB and IW are in a totally different room than my strings and percussion.
> The playability of the library is amazing, not to have to work with keyswitches is a relief, but there are a few things that make it difficult to work with.



I didn't experienced missing notes even with very fast repetitions. I had some unwanted sustained notes with IW due to the humanization feature but no missing notes.


----------



## mducharme

shawnsingh said:


> OK, as requested, a different version of Copland Fanfare for Infinite Brass attached. My EQ settings might still be making this slightly too bright sounding, not sure. OT percussion is almost the same as the Berlin version I made, but mixed with the same reverb used on the brass attempting to glue them a bit.



Your rhythm is wrong at 1:48 in the timpani. You have three triplet eighths while the score has two sixteenths followed by an eighth.


----------



## lljfnord

If you're using Cakewalk by Bandlab with Infinite Brass and/or Infinite Woodwinds, this might come in handy:






New "SUPER" CAL Script: HUMANIZE PLUS.CAL ! | Cakewalk Forums


I have been working on this script for several weeks, consuming dozens of hours of work, mainly to adapt a complex logic from POLYNOMIAL BICUBIC INTERPOLATION to all the technical limitations of CAL Script, besides all the time to learn this language.But now the first version is ready.The idea...



forum.cakewalk.com





It's a link to a Cakewalk forum post about a Cakewalk script that is supposedly a huge improvement over their original Humanize script. It's capable of randomizing the length of notes in a passage, something Aaron said was vital when mousing in notes instead of playing them in. According to the author, it uses "POLYNOMIAL BICUBIC INTERPOLATION" (his caps, not mine) to do the randomizing, and it works on ticks instead of a percentage of the notes.

I don't know if you'll need a forum account in order to access the post. If you're using CbB, it would be worth the trouble to set one up anyway.


----------



## LionLeo120

A question about Infinite Series, not sure if anyone has asked before.
Can infinite Series make perfect sound like walkthrough only use fader (control dynamic and expression)?
I have seen many people using leap motion or breath controller , but I only have a small fader to control...


----------



## Kent

LionLeo120 said:


> A question about Infinite Series, not sure if anyone has asked before.
> Can infinite Series make perfect sound like walkthrough only use fader (control dynamic and expression)?
> I have seen many people using leap motion or breath controller , but I only have a small fader to control...


Have you watched the walkthrough videos? Aaron says time and again that all you really need is a way to input note velocity and modulation data. Everything else can be automated, or drawn in if you need it (which you usually won't).


----------



## John R Wilson

LionLeo120 said:


> A question about Infinite Series, not sure if anyone has asked before.
> Can infinite Series make perfect sound like walkthrough only use fader (control dynamic and expression)?
> I have seen many people using leap motion or breath controller , but I only have a small fader to control...



Main control is CC1 for the dynamics and midi note velocities. It is also useful to have another controller or fader to control vibrato but you could draw that in after.


----------



## Sean J

LionLeo120 said:


> A question about Infinite Series, not sure if anyone has asked before.
> Can infinite Series make perfect sound like walkthrough only use fader (control dynamic and expression)?
> I have seen many people using leap motion or breath controller , but I only have a small fader to control...



Movement in general is more important than the exact shape of the movement, so the controller doesn't matter as much. A breath controller might get better results though. But any fader will be fine.


----------



## LionLeo120

kmaster said:


> Have you watched the walkthrough videos?


yes, I did. I'm asking here to seek more real experience.
Want to make sure that I can reach a good sound without buying additional equipment.


kmaster said:


> Aaron says time and again that all you really need is a way to input note velocity and modulation data. Everything else can be automated, or drawn in if you need it (which you usually won't).


Thanks for your reply!


----------



## LionLeo120

John R Wilson said:


> Main control is CC1 for the dynamics and midi note velocities. It is also useful to have another controller or fader to control vibrato but you could draw that in after.


Got it!
I use nanokontrol2 so I think I can control vibrato too.


----------



## LionLeo120

Sean J said:


> Movement in general is more important than the exact shape of the movement, so the controller doesn't matter as much. A breath controller might get better results though. But any fader will be fine.


Thanks for replying!


----------



## Kent

LionLeo120 said:


> yes, I did. I'm asking here to seek more real experience.
> Want to make sure that I can reach a good sound without buying additional equipment.


Aaron is somewhat rare among developers in that he addresses issues and potential issues with his instruments head-on instead of attempting to cover them up or push them into a corner.* In short, WYSIWYG! 

* (There are others of course... this isn't meant as an inflammatory statement or some sort of comparison per se, but rather just as an expression of trust in AV's marketing philosophy)


----------



## shawnsingh

DivingInSpace said:


> Can you maybe share a screenshot of this automation? I'd be curious to see how you did it. As a non brass player, details like these don't come easy, so this could be a huge help.



Sure, will do next time I'm at my music computer. I'm not a brass player either, the only reason I thought to do it was because I was trying to mix reference against Berlin Brass and Hollywood Brass. You can hear the instruments wavering in pitch, but in some odd way, it sounds less random and more like they're trying to stay in tune with each other.




LionLeo120 said:


> A question about Infinite Series, not sure if anyone has asked before.
> Can infinite Series make perfect sound like walkthrough only use fader (control dynamic and expression)?
> I have seen many people using leap motion or breath controller , but I only have a small fader to control...



For my workflow, I only use two faders for each Infinite instrument - dynamics on CC1, and vibrato (woodwinds, trumpets) or growl (other brass) on CC2. But my MIDI performance skills are terrible, so I end up spending a lot of time editing/drawing CC automation manually anyway. So from that perspective, two faders will be more than enough. Reasons to consider leap motion / breath control over that: (a) if you believe you want to control more CCs in real time (b) if you think it will be an easier way for you to perform MIDI and save yourself post-editing time.


----------



## shawnsingh

mducharme said:


> Your rhythm is wrong at 1:48 in the timpani. You have three triplet eighths while the score has two sixteenths followed by an eighth.



Very astute catch, I didn't realize. Part of me feels like I've grown up with recordings that had a slower timpani phrase there, but I can't find the recording now. In any case, easy to fix.


----------



## mducharme

shawnsingh said:


> Very astute catch, I didn't realize. Part of me feels like I've grown up with recordings that had a slower timpani phrase there, but I can't find the recording now. In any case, easy to fix.



You are probably thinking of the timpani figure that you hear about 30 seconds later - the same pitches, but regular eighths instead of sixteenths (not triplets).


----------



## Max Bonsi

LionLeo120 said:


> Got it!
> I use nanokontrol2 so I think I can control vibrato too.


The nanokontrol2 is my setup together with a digital piano
No problem at all with IW


----------



## aaronventure

LionLeo120 said:


> A question about Infinite Series, not sure if anyone has asked before.
> Can infinite Series make perfect sound like walkthrough only use fader (control dynamic and expression)?
> I have seen many people using leap motion or breath controller , but I only have a small fader to control...


For Dynamics alone, it's actually easier on the modwheel/stick since it's just finger movement instead of arm/wrist movement. 

You can transform Aftertouch to CC21 for Vibrato Depth with the built-in Transformer multiscript and use it that way. Lots of options.


----------



## PerryD

PerryD said:


> Nice update! French horns made me think of Ron Goodwin's 633 Squadron theme. Very loose mock-up here without any sheet music reference. :/ Quarantine has obviously had very little effect on my sanity.



I had to revisit that clip and tack on a full mix of that section at the end. Too much time in lockdown...yeah, that's my excuse.


----------



## LionLeo120

shawnsingh said:


> For my workflow, I only use two faders for each Infinite instrument - dynamics on CC1, and vibrato (woodwinds, trumpets) or growl (other brass) on CC2. But my MIDI performance skills are terrible, so I end up spending a lot of time editing/drawing CC automation manually anyway. So from that perspective, two faders will be more than enough. Reasons to consider leap motion / breath control over that: (a) if you believe you want to control more CCs in real time (b) if you think it will be an easier way for you to perform MIDI and save yourself post-editing time.


Thanks your advice!
I think I will grab additional controller in the future when I more sophisticated composing technology.


----------



## LionLeo120

aaronventure said:


> For Dynamics alone, it's actually easier on the modwheel/stick since it's just finger movement instead of arm/wrist movement.
> 
> You can transform Aftertouch to CC21 for Vibrato Depth with the built-in Transformer multiscript and use it that way. Lots of options.


Thanks!
Plan to buy IW in the end of 2020.
It is really a great library!


----------



## El Buhdai

Guys. I need a wider soundstage for a dense, full-orchestral mix. What's the best way to do stereo-imaging on Infinite instruments without ruining the sense of space and depth from the convolution? I've never felt the need to do my own stereo imaging before, but I have a client who needs trailer music and the writing in the climax is too dense for me not to spread things and still have a clear mix. Preferably using free or included plugins (I use FL Studio 20)


----------



## Kent

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/zonematrix-puts-kontakt-on-steroids.99921/ have y'all seen this?


----------



## Kent

El Buhdai said:


> Guys. I need a wider soundstage for a dense, full-orchestral mix. What's the best way to do stereo-imaging on Infinite instruments without ruining the sense of space and depth from the convolution? I've never felt the need to do my own stereo imaging before, but I have a client who needs trailer music and the writing in the climax is too dense for me not to spread things and still have a clear mix. Preferably using free or included plugins (I use FL Studio 20)


Put a bit of sample-delay on the wider instruments.


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> Guys. I need a wider soundstage for a dense, full-orchestral mix. What's the best way to do stereo-imaging on Infinite instruments without ruining the sense of space and depth from the convolution? I've never felt the need to do my own stereo imaging before, but I have a client who needs trailer music and the writing in the climax is too dense for me not to spread things and still have a clear mix. Preferably using free or included plugins (I use FL Studio 20)



Some ideas 

Change the stage position in the Infinite virtual instrument. Many of the principal player positions are closer to the center. Except - try to avoid reusing the same position for multiple instruments.
Fruity stereo delay or Voxengo sound delay are useful to add a tiny bit of delay between L and R channels. This can work effectively like "delay panning" as opposed to the conventional "level panning". But you need to control sub-millisecond differences to get the right effect. When I used it before, Fruity stereo delay didn't get precise enough, so I ended up using Voxengo sound delay, and there you can control sub-millisecond delays.
About stereo image - I wonder if "wide" is the only thing you need, or if it would also help to push the brass further back, i.e. "depth" Adding more reverb than expected may help, especially if it's a decent stage/hall sound.
I haven't played around too deeply with Studio vs Bersa vs Mozarteum, but I felt that Bersa had the widest stereo image to use as a starting point. More importantly, I felt that stereo image was the main criteria to choose between these. It's possible to sculpt the tone with post EQ and reverb, but the stereo image is way more convenient to get correct with the provided IRs instead of trying to mix our own.
Orchestration techniques can make a big difference in stereo image too. Making use of Horns on the opposite side of stage from trombones, for example. Or, many times I found it useful to layer Horns, strings, choir, and other brass - not to create some overkill epic tone, but rather just to intentionally make the stereo image more vague. It can work to create a "chord bed" under some melodies. And counterintuitively it works really well the other way around too - if you make melody more vaguely stereo center with layering, it can potentially leave the width for more active background parts of the sound.


----------



## Nando Florestan

What Shawn said, plus one thing: try panning higher-pitched instruments outside (the opposite of the Infinite default), e. g. horn 1 more to the left, horn 6 more to the center.

See if your track benefits from *antiphonal sitting of violins*:

_Johannes Muller-Stosch, conductor of the Holland Symphony Orchestra, experiments when doing different repertoires. ― In Mozart with a lot of back and forth between 1st and 2nd violins I have 1st on the left, then in the middle: cellos, violas, and 2nd on the right. When the 2nd violins are more or less harmonic and play in thirds with the 1st (in a lot of late Romantic repertoire that is very harmonically oriented), placing the 2nds next to the 1st makes more sense._
https://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1793&context=theses
But American seating only originated after the end of the 2nd World War. Tchaikovsky and Mahler are usually recorded with antiphonal seating.

Finally, do not get obsessed with such things. Music should not be clear all the time, often it should be a bit unclear too. It should not be balanced in frequency all the time, it should be muddy sometimes too etc.

Music is about contrast.


----------



## aaronventure

Delay the weaker channel by ~20ms. If your horn is somewhere on the left, delay the right channel. If your trumpet is on the right, delay the left one.

Experiment with the exact number. You may want ~25 on horns and ~15 on trumpets/trombones.


----------



## Ivan Duch

Hi there! 

I purchased Infinite Woodwinds yesterday. Incredible work @aaronventure ! I own a leap motion as well and I'm getting used to the controls but the expression, workflow and sound quality are over the top. I'm looking forward to many projects with IW as my main woodwinds library and I'm already saving for IB. 


That said, I'm having an issue with glides which I'm starting to think might be an issue with Kontakt, not sure. I can't play glides on clarinets, I even donwloaded the midi files for Rhapsody in Blue and they don't sound. I made sure to set up legato min at 41 as well. 

Did anyone experience the same problem? Any ideas about how to solve it?

Thanks!


----------



## Nando Florestan

Ivan Duch said:


> Hi there!
> 
> I purchased Infinite Woodwinds yesterday. Incredible work @aaronventure ! I own a leap motion as well and I'm getting used to the controls but the expression, workflow and sound quality are over the top. I'm looking forward to many projects with IW as my main woodwinds library and I'm already saving for IB.
> 
> 
> That said, I'm having an issue with glides which I'm starting to think might be an issue with Kontakt, not sure. I can't play glides on clarinets, I even donwloaded the midi files for Rhapsody in Blue and they don't sound. I made sure to set up legato min at 41 as well.
> 
> Did anyone experience the same problem? Any ideas about how to solve it?
> 
> Thanks!



I am not at my studio computer right now but if you look real close at the UI of the clarinet there should be a setting clamping the velocity to a minimum of 41 in order to avoid glides. Turn that to one and glides are back on velocities 1-40.


----------



## Ivan M.

I know that Aaron's libraries are great for performing. How easy are they for programming (when I don't feel like playing, just drawing notes and CC in)?


----------



## I like music

Ivan M. said:


> I know that Aaron's libraries are great for performing. How easy are they for programming (when I don't feel like playing, just drawing notes and CC in)?


Super easy. Since there are no key switches, you just focus on the note and the CC lanes.


----------



## Ivan M.

I like music said:


> Super easy. Since there are no key switches, you just focus on the note and the CC lanes.



Thank you! And from the demo videos I understand that dynamics CC is mostly used, and others are used rarely and for effects only, is that right? So 99% of the time you only need velocity and dynamics


----------



## I like music

Ivan M. said:


> Thank you! And from the demo videos I understand that dynamics CC is mostly used, and others are used rarely and for effects only, is that right? So 99% of the time you only need velocity and dynamics


Correct. I draw it in, set mod cc data, quickly tweak velocity and in 90 percent there. Then I just go and draw vibrato in if needed. Takes me seconds!


----------



## aileero

Hey, I've had infinite woodwinds for a while and have been thinking about getting infinite brass but I want to ask, does IB blend well with sample modeling brass? I have SM Brass and quite like it but I thought it would be a good idea to mix the two together. I've tried mixing together SWAM solo strings with SM Strings to mixed results so I was wondering if these two would be different. 

My idea was that mixing together two different methods of "modeling" would add some depth and realism while keeping the agility.


----------



## Ivan Duch

Thanks @Nando Florestan! The issue was the velocity trigger as you mentioned. I misunderstood the video tutorial.


----------



## Ivan M.

I like music said:


> Correct. I draw it in, set mod cc data, quickly tweak velocity and in 90 percent there. Then I just go and draw vibrato in if needed. Takes me seconds!


Great, thank you. I love simplicity, and Aaron has done this fantastically


----------



## ccook

aileero said:


> Hey, I've had infinite woodwinds for a while and have been thinking about getting infinite brass but I want to ask, does IB blend well with sample modeling brass? I have SM Brass and quite like it but I thought it would be a good idea to mix the two together. I've tried mixing together SWAM solo strings with SM Strings to mixed results so I was wondering if these two would be different.
> 
> My idea was that mixing together two different methods of "modeling" would add some depth and realism while keeping the agility.


Hi aileero, I've been recently experimenting with a single SM Horn blended with a section of 4 Infinite 1.5 horns and I've found them to blend fantastically well as long as I used a wraparound (100%wet) reverb like 7th heaven with the SM Horn. I would say this blend of two different methods of "modelled" instruments definitely works as you might imagine.


----------



## aileero

ccook said:


> Hi aileero, I've been recently experimenting with a single SM Horn blended with a section of 4 Infinite 1.5 horns and I've found them to blend fantastically well as long as I used a wraparound (100%wet) reverb like 7th heaven with the SM Horn. I would say this blend of two different methods of "modelled" instruments definitely works as you might imagine.


Nice! thanks for the answer, I always felt that the SM horns felt good but a little weak so its nice to hear it blends well with infinite


----------



## ccook

aileero said:


> Nice! thanks for the answer, I always felt that the SM horns felt good but a little weak so its nice to hear it blends well with infinite


The weakest part of SM horns for me is definitely at the higher CC11 values/velocities, which IB handles fanstastically well.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Just this week I decided to keep 5 Infinite horns in the template. The 6th one is a single Sample Modeling horn which is preferred for lyrical, tender passages. To better merge with the IB horns, one needs to dial in a moderate amount of distance. Between 16 and 32 I think.


----------



## shawnsingh

Ivan M. said:


> Thank you! And from the demo videos I understand that dynamics CC is mostly used, and others are used rarely and for effects only, is that right? So 99% of the time you only need velocity and dynamics



I think it's useful to control vibrato depth on a secondary CC.

Can you edit multiple lanes of CC at the same time in your DAW? In Cubase it's easily possible, so it's just as convenient to have many lanes as it is to have only one lane. I usually have note velocity, two CC controls, and even pitch bend, all in the note editor simultaneously.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> I think it's useful to control vibrato depth on a secondary CC.
> 
> Can you edit multiple lanes of CC at the same time in your DAW? In Cubase it's easily possible, so it's just as convenient to have many lanes as it is to have only one lane. I usually have note velocity, two CC controls, and even pitch bend, all in the note editor simultaneously.


Aye. I have it set up so that there's a shortcut for different lane combinations. Press 1 and I get velocity + modulation. 
Press 2 and I get vibrato depth and speed 
Etc etc 

Makes life so easy. Ps I even managed, with someone's help on this forum, to get it so that if I press a key, it opens up all the flutes in the editor (same for other instruments) 

Drawing it in couldn't get easier. Now I just need to try to get cubase through my touchscreen pen tablet that I can use a pen to draw.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

I like music said:


> Makes life so easy. Ps I even managed, with someone's help on this forum, to get it so that if I press a key, it opens up all the flutes in the editor (same for other instruments)


how'd you manage that?


----------



## shawnsingh

So, Infinite Woodwinds is just kicking and screaming for some Ravel, right? Here's a 20-second quick one for you. Enjoy!


----------



## I like music

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> how'd you manage that?


I will post some screenshots of the logical editor that allows you to do that. Truth is, I have no idea how to do it, but a few forum members solved it for me! I'm not in the same city as my computer right now so might take a few days. However, there is a thread here where they made the instructions for me, so I'll link you to that sooner. SUPER time saver!


----------



## mikeh-375

shawnsingh said:


> So, Infinite Woodwinds is just kicking and screaming for some Ravel, right? Here's a 20-second quick one for you. Enjoy!



...thanks for that @shawnsingh. I really appreciate that as I am about to buy _something_ and it's come down to AV IB and Winds or SynchronPro. I have until Monday to decide.
Snippets like that are incredibly helpful to me as I am writing concert music these days. The Ravel is a favourite work of mine.


----------



## Mikro93

Could somebody render me some lines with the saxophones from IW?
Nothing fancy, just to have an idea of how it sounds for some lyrical stuff (maybe some Shostakovitch?), and some jazzy, punchy lines, staccato stuff? That would be very appreciated


----------



## Woodie1972

I'm a bit at the end of my options at the moment. I have to admit I'm not the best in mixing, but I know my way around the plug-ins quite well, but here goes:

Although I love the playability of the library, what bothers me is the overall sound of the libraries, especially IW. I've tried EQ, different settings in Kontakt for the instruments (mics, halls, studio with my own reverb), played with early and late reflections under the hood, but I can't get it to sound right. 
For IB I have to say that trumpets, horns and tuba are okay, but I simply can't get the Trombone to sound right in louder phrases, even when I don't exceed CC1 at a max of 100.

The woodwinds are much more difficult as I think almost all instruments (except English horn, the bassoon family and the bass clarinet), do have a thin sound, or don't have the piercing high register you would expect for flute, piccolo, and clarinets. The oboe lacks body and the clarinets and soprano and alto saxophone sound synthetic.

Personally I really love the sound of the VSL Woodwinds, it would be a dream come true if I could get IW to sound the same, or at least something comparable.

Please don't read my post as a complaint to Aaron and the great job he does, but as a request for tips to get a great sound.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Woodie1972 said:


> I'm a bit at the end of my options at the moment. I have to admit I'm not the best in mixing, but I know my way around the plug-ins quite well, but here goes:
> 
> Although I love the playability of the library, what bothers me is the overall sound of the libraries, especially IW. I've tried EQ, different settings in Kontakt for the instruments (mics, halls, studio with my own reverb), played with early and late reflections under the hood, but I can't get it to sound right.
> For IB I have to say that trumpets, horns and tuba are okay, but I simply can't get the Trombone to sound right in louder phrases, even when I don't exceed CC1 at a max of 100.
> 
> The woodwinds are much more difficult as I think almost all instruments (except English horn, the bassoon family and the bass clarinet), do have a thin sound, or don't have the piercing high register you would expect for flute, piccolo, and clarinets. The oboe lacks body and the clarinets and soprano and alto saxophone sound synthetic.
> 
> Personally I really love the sound of the VSL Woodwinds, it would be a dream come true if I could get IW to sound the same, or at least something comparable.
> 
> Please don't read my post as a complaint to Aaron and the great job he does, but as a request for tips to get a great sound.



Why not post an example? It's much easier for us to assess what the problems you are having might be and how you might remedy them if we might actually hear the problems.

I do see this _a lot_; people complain or say that they are having trouble and then they don't even post any audio examples of the issues they are having, making it almost impossible to know if it's a mix problem, an instrument problem, or a user problem. Why not just do a few quick examples with the instruments you want help with and see if someone can help you?


----------



## Ivan Duch

Woodie1972 said:


> I'm a bit at the end of my options at the moment. I have to admit I'm not the best in mixing, but I know my way around the plug-ins quite well, but here goes:
> 
> Although I love the playability of the library, what bothers me is the overall sound of the libraries, especially IW. I've tried EQ, different settings in Kontakt for the instruments (mics, halls, studio with my own reverb), played with early and late reflections under the hood, but I can't get it to sound right.
> For IB I have to say that trumpets, horns and tuba are okay, but I simply can't get the Trombone to sound right in louder phrases, even when I don't exceed CC1 at a max of 100.
> 
> The woodwinds are much more difficult as I think almost all instruments (except English horn, the bassoon family and the bass clarinet), do have a thin sound, or don't have the piercing high register you would expect for flute, piccolo, and clarinets. The oboe lacks body and the clarinets and soprano and alto saxophone sound synthetic.
> 
> Personally I really love the sound of the VSL Woodwinds, it would be a dream come true if I could get IW to sound the same, or at least something comparable.
> 
> Please don't read my post as a complaint to Aaron and the great job he does, but as a request for tips to get a great sound.



My first impression with the flutes was similar to that. I was comparing it to Hollywood Winds which have way more air noise in the samples and that was kind of my subjective realism standard.

Then I started listening to several recordings I wanted to emulate with IW and realized flute tones varies a lot from recording to recording and many times it sounds closer to what I hear in IW rather than HWW.

So, I think maybe the realistic tone is a bit of a subjective perception based on the samples we are used to hearing.

Then, there's the realistic expression factor. IW lacking much of the baked in expression in most libraries requires you to play/program it more carefully. The first step I took was to download many of the midi files present in this thread and Aaron's site. I was amazed at how expressive and real sounding the library can be after loading those midi files on my DAW.

I'm currently trying to emulate the phrases used in the Bogano theme from Fallen Order. I'm getting closer with IW than anything I tried before. Here is the track, I think it has an amazing use of winds.

As a last word and a testament to the subjectivity of the topic: Many of the instruments you name in IW as realistic were named by a few as the more unrealistic.


----------



## Terry93D

Quick random question: will the Infinite Strings include a harp or two?


----------



## lucor

Anyone else having severe performance issues in REAPER when playing in several instruments at the same time?
I can't even play in all 6 horns at once without REAPER starting to crackle at 256 samples (in Cubase I can do the same thing at 128 samples at it doesn't even break a sweat).

I remember REAPER having severe performance issues when record arming multiple tracks, but not being able to record at least 6-8 instruments at once would be quite a limitation.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

lucor said:


> Anyone else having severe performance issues in REAPER when playing in several instruments at the same time?
> I can't even play in all 6 horns at once without REAPER starting to crackle at 256 samples (in Cubase I can do the same thing at 128 samples at it doesn't even break a sweat).
> 
> I remember REAPER having severe performance issues when record arming multiple tracks, but not being able to record at least 6-8 instruments at once would be quite a limitation.


Yeah, it seems to be Mozarteum that's doing it. when I switch to Bersa the issue seems to go away.


----------



## lucor

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Yeah, it seems to be Mozarteum that's doing it. when I switch to Bersa the issue seems to go away.


Not for me unfortunately, but I'm also 99.9% sure that it's a REAPER issue and not one of the library.

Does anyone know of any secret options in the REAPER preferences that will improve performance with multiple armed tracks?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

lucor said:


> Not for me unfortunately, but I'm also 99.9% sure that it's a REAPER issue and not one of the library.
> 
> Does anyone know of any secret options in the REAPER preferences that will improve performance with multiple armed tracks?


Aaron told me to make sure multithreading was enabled, but I don't really know what that is and how to turn it on.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Reaper is the most performant host of VST that I have ever tried. If you haven't messed up your Preferences, there's nothing you need to do in Reaper.

In Kontakt / Options / Engine / Multiprocessor support (when running as a VST): I have that set to off right now.

This means when one audio cycle starts, Reaper is in charge of distributing the workload among the CPU cores -- each Kontakt instance will run in its own core and will do no attempt to use others by itself. When running this way, it is very important to keep few instruments in a Kontakt instance. For instance, I believe I can run 5 or 6 Infinite Brass in one Kontakt instance (meaning one core), but certainly not 7. This is with only one impulse response -- I always use the mixed mics to save CPU. The number of instruments may be different according to your CPU.

Maximum performance would come from one Kontakt instance, one instrument playing. This would allow more flexibility for Reaper to distribute work to the CPU cores.

The CPU usage I see in the Kontakt instance is the usage of a single core. But when it reaches 60% I get crackles. This is because Windows is not a real-time operating system and it interrupts audio processing to do other things. So you must not count on using more than 60%. Interrupts become less of an issue when one raises the buffer size.

How many cores does your machine have? If you are running on a laptop with 2 cores and 4 threads (ignore the number of threads), 10 or 12 Infinite instruments would definitely max it out.

I went into the BIOS and disabled multithreading (AMD calls this by a different name) in the CPU because it does not help audio. At least watching usage of the cores is now simpler (half the information).

For those running Windows, there's a setting in the operating system that is very important, for it to favor background rather than foreground tasks. Audio counts as background.

There's a famous video that explains the real-time stuff to normal humans in about 30 minutes. I might find that for you later if you think you want it.


----------



## Ivan Duch

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Aaron told me to make sure multithreading was enabled, but I don't really know what that is and how to turn it on.



The option is in Preferences -> Audio -> Buffering. It's related to the amount of CPUs being used. 

I have Reaper and IW. I just tested recording on 10 instruments, had to change the buffer from 128 to 512 (not ideal at all for recording) but it's working fine.


----------



## shawnsingh

Is there an analogous feature in Reaper like Asio Guard in Cubase?

I get breaks and spikes a lot, but if I de-select all tracks (or select a completely unrelated track that doesn't play any MIDI or audio at that time), all the audio processing goes into the "non-priority" buffer and works without problems.


----------



## lucor

Thanks everyone, "Allow live FX multiprocessing" was turned off for me. Just turned it on and now I can easily play all 6 Horns plus several other instruments at the same time at 128 samples!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

lucor said:


> Thanks everyone, "Allow live FX multiprocessing" was turned off for me. Just turned it on and now I can easily play all 6 Horns plus several other instruments at the same time at 128 samples!


I was gonna ask if i should turn that on because mine was also off. Good to hear it works for you. I'll try it later tonight!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

shawnsingh said:


> OK, as requested, a different version of Copland Fanfare for Infinite Brass attached. My EQ settings might still be making this slightly too bright sounding, not sure. OT percussion is almost the same as the Berlin version I made, but mixed with the same reverb used on the brass attempting to glue them a bit.
> 
> You're asking about adjustments to tone
> - EQ: very gradual slopes across wide regions of frequency spectrum are useful to sculpt tone/distance
> - Saving a few extra instruments for layering when you really need to pack a punch - in this case, I added piccolo trumpet and trumpet 4 near the climax and end.
> - very slight pitch bend, more than the humanize gets us from Aaron's default settings.
> - a bit of manual "modulation" on the pitch bend, like a chorus effect. literally like manually drawn slopes/oscillations. Especially on sustained notes, trying to emulate how the players continue to hunt for good intonation with each other. This helps get that more "brassy ensemble" sound in a few places.
> - lots of little CC curves that dip into max levels to make nice marcato articulations.
> - Used cubase logical editor to randomize note timings a bit, but I overdid it and manually had to reign it back in. In retrospect that worked out even better than just randomizing would have.



Finally was able to compare this ABing with your Berlin version (using automation to switch between the versions). Once level-matched, must say you got very close to matching the Berlin tone! The IB one doesn't quite have the upper range bite in some passages but that may be just due to the modulation data differences. Well done!


----------



## Jamus

shawnsingh said:


> So, Infinite Woodwinds is just kicking and screaming for some Ravel, right? Here's a 20-second quick one for you. Enjoy!


This is literally the first piece I mocked up with IW 😂 I was so hoping strings would be out soon so that I could have a go at all the divisi parts in Daphnis et Chloe


----------



## I like music

Woodie1972 said:


> I'm a bit at the end of my options at the moment. I have to admit I'm not the best in mixing, but I know my way around the plug-ins quite well, but here goes:
> 
> Although I love the playability of the library, what bothers me is the overall sound of the libraries, especially IW. I've tried EQ, different settings in Kontakt for the instruments (mics, halls, studio with my own reverb), played with early and late reflections under the hood, but I can't get it to sound right.
> For IB I have to say that trumpets, horns and tuba are okay, but I simply can't get the Trombone to sound right in louder phrases, even when I don't exceed CC1 at a max of 100.
> 
> The woodwinds are much more difficult as I think almost all instruments (except English horn, the bassoon family and the bass clarinet), do have a thin sound, or don't have the piercing high register you would expect for flute, piccolo, and clarinets. The oboe lacks body and the clarinets and soprano and alto saxophone sound synthetic.
> 
> Personally I really love the sound of the VSL Woodwinds, it would be a dream come true if I could get IW to sound the same, or at least something comparable.
> 
> Please don't read my post as a complaint to Aaron and the great job he does, but as a request for tips to get a great sound.



Hey! If you post a few examples I am sure people will be able to help in some way (at least hopefully!). Also perhaps an example of what your target sound is.


----------



## Woodie1972

I like music said:


> Hey! If you post a few examples I am sure people will be able to help in some way (at least hopefully!). Also perhaps an example of what your target sound is.


As we speak working on Henri Tomasi's 'Fanfares Liturgiques' to get to know the library better. Once I've entered the 2nd movement in Cubase (the one with the trombone cadenza), I will post it here.


----------



## I like music

Woodie1972 said:


> As we speak working on Henri Tomasi's 'Fanfares Liturgiques' to get to know the library better. Once I've entered the 2nd movement in Cubase (the one with the trombone cadenza), I will post it here.


Got it. Haven't heard that piece but will Google it. Let me know if you have a particular recording in mind. I'm pretty bad at mixing etc but am keen to hear what your target sound is. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.


----------



## Geocranium

shawnsingh said:


> So, Infinite Woodwinds is just kicking and screaming for some Ravel, right? Here's a 20-second quick one for you. Enjoy!



Stuff like this is really what I think the Infinite series is for. It may not sound as good as the real deal, but it works so much better than any other library with swift, expressive music like that of Ravel, which is my favorite to write. Imagine trying to do with something like Spitfire, it just wouldn't be possible.

It almost feels like a reaction to how sample library music has developed, but the more I write, the more I try to write things that a traditional sample library couldn't pull off easily. The infinite series feels like the perfect tool for this.


----------



## Jamus

Can confirm that in my personal case using 4 instances of Kontakt as opposed to 2 significantly decreased crackling with 128 buffer, however any more Kontakt instances seem to have no effect.

Can also confirm yet again that for Reaper users the best condition for playback is to have piano roll closed and all tracks unarmed 👍

On a side note I'd be curious to know what audio interfaces any of you are using, if it's USB 3 and whether that might make a difference? I've had the same Focusrite 2i4 (gen 1?) for years and it often gives me blue screens on startup "DRIVER_POWER_STATE_FAILURE". Might be time for an upgrade 😂


----------



## PerryD

I am getting some crackling with several instances of Kontakt IWW loaded. CPU load is low and I have 64gb of ram. Quantum 2626 with Thunderbolt 3 has low latency. I temp freeze tracks if I have to. This was a test with Solo & Ensemble Strings plus IWW. A bit heavy on the double basses in this mix.


----------



## eli0s

Ivan Duch said:


> I'm currently trying to emulate the phrases used in the Bogano theme from Fallen Order. I'm getting closer with IW than anything I tried before. Here is the track, I think it has an amazing use of winds.


Amazing job!!! Congratulations! The winds and brass sound terrific! 
What library did you used for the strings? They also sound amazing!


----------



## DANIELE

I can almost play all the brass together at 256 samples without drops. I'm using both multi-processing active in Kontakt and Reaper and I'm using one instance of Kontakt per instrument. This settings cause an higher RAM utilization but since Infinite Series are very light there is no problem for me, and with 128 GB of RAM I think I would have no problems anyway.


----------



## CT

Geocranium said:


> Imagine trying to do with something like Spitfire, it just wouldn't be possible.



Not really. It's actually possible to get something decent-for-VIs in as much time as it takes to play each part, as it turns out. Double that time to replay each part with more nuance than I did, and you'll have something more than just decent, but I'm up too late as it is.


----------



## Kent

Mike T said:


> Not really. It's actually possible to get something decent-for-VIs in as much time as it takes to play each part, as it turns out. Double that time to replay each part with more nuance than I did, and you'll have something more than just decent, but I'm up too late as it is.



Interesting. No word about your mockup, but speaking about the utility of the instruments alone:

Both have good—though different—base 'sus' tones, but this example overall is phasey and a bit sluggish in nearly every legato transition. I'm sure the sluggishness can be mitigated somewhat by more nuanced massaging, as you say @Mike T (and again this is not about the quality of the mockup, but the ease of use and the resultant tone quality in proportion to the amount of time spent on things), but the phasey is baked-in. It would take some clever thinking to mask that aspect.

Curious to know what you used here. I think this excerpt clearly favors the strengths of IW as shown by @shawnsingh 's mockup.


----------



## CT

Both approaches are blessings and curses. Do you want something to be nimble and "clean," or to sound more like real people playing real instruments? Neither is a perfect solution. I merely wanted to demonstrate that it's not at all "impossible" to get something with an equal measure of good/bad from traditional samples. I should also add that this is Mix 1 of BBCSO, which does not necessarily offer the most clean, nimble sound for the woodwinds. To more closely match the aesthetic of IW I would probably rely only on the close and mid mics.

I went between the two examples and a real recording several times. I will trust my ears on which is ultimately a more natural musical experience, though I don't expect much agreement in this thread.


----------



## Kent

Mike T said:


> Both approaches are blessings and curses. Do you want something to be nimble and "clean," or to sound more like real people playing real instruments?


I just don't (personally) see hear that dichotomy here 🤷‍♂️



Mike T said:


> Neither is a perfect solution.


Agreed!


----------



## CT

kmaster said:


> I just don't (personally) see hear that dichotomy here



I am always let down by virtual instruments when using or hearing them, one way or another, and I am especially hard on those which are purported to be "better" or which seem to genuinely have the potential but don't fully realize it.

These sound better than they did, certainly, but there's still no comparison I think. But I'm always watching, to see where things go....

skinnerprovemewrongkids.png

Also, this has made me wonder about "average ears" and what they prefer. Going to be asking some friends of mine who are into music but don't have the myopia that we here do to listen to the two different takes of Ravel.


----------



## Ivan Duch

eli0s said:


> Amazing job!!! Congratulations! The winds and brass sound terrific!
> What library did you used for the strings? They also sound amazing!



Sorry! I think I wasn't clear enough. That's the actual recording, not my work.


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> I am always let down by virtual instruments when using or hearing them, one way or another, and I am especially hard on those which are purported to be "better" or which seem to genuinely have the potential but don't fully realize it.
> 
> These sound better than they did, certainly, but there's still no comparison I think. But I'm always watching, to see where things go....
> 
> skinnerprovemewrongkids.png
> 
> Also, this has made me wonder about "average ears" and what they prefer. Going to be asking some friends of mine who are into music but don't have the myopia that we here do to listen to the two different takes of Ravel.


I'm super interested in this. I had a worry that the average ear would FEEL that something was off in the energy of a phrase if it didn't flow naturally (but that they wouldn't be able to pinpoint what was wrong) even if the core tone was great. 

Then I thought that the very opposite could be true: that a really great tone that sits in a hall really well might give the average ear more satisfaction than a well phrased line which doesn't have a natural space. 

Then I confused myself further by thinking "what is the average ear?" Is it better than I give it credit for or worse? 

Now I'm doubting everything, but definitely interested in your test, regardless.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> I'm super interested in this. I had a worry that the average ear would FEEL that something was off in the energy of a phrase if it didn't flow naturally (but that they wouldn't be able to pinpoint what was wrong) even if the core tone was great.
> 
> Then I thought that the very opposite could be true: that a really great tone that sits in a hall really well might give the average ear more satisfaction than a well phrased line which doesn't have a natural space.
> 
> Then I confused myself further by thinking "what is the average ear?" Is it better than I give it credit for or worse?
> 
> Now I'm doubting everything, but definitely interested in your test, regardless.



My take on this - it depends on the actual music whether phrasing is more important or whether tone is more important.

And maybe even more importantly, both "room tone" and "performance nuances" need to be at some minimum level of acceptable for the other aspect to shine at all. It won't matter how good the room tone is if you hear machine gun spiccato. And it won't matter how beautiful a performance is if the tone sounds blatantly unrealistic. It's that "baseline level of both tone and performance nuance" that I think we should want developers to keep pushing forward in their own ways.

I keep flipping back and forth between the wet vs dry schools of thought. But I think Infinite's approach - bespoke IRs + dry sampled / modeled instruments - is more of a middle-ground approach. The bespoke IRs have an opportunity to be tailored precisely to match an instrument and seating position, which can make mixing a LOT easier than traditional dry libraries. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough with mixing but that's been the main reason I started to give up on dry libraries for a traditional virtual orchestra - but with Infnite I feel I can mix it almost 95% to my satisfaction. (That last 5% - I do feel like the IRs Aaron has captured still leave a slightly vague stereo localization. But I also think this can get better over time, and it's still already pretty good)


----------



## eli0s

Ivan Duch said:


> That's the actual recording, not my work


Ouuuups, my bad
They sounded so good I wanted them to be VI I guess...
Oh well... Amazing music anyway 😁


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I wonder how VSL Woodwinds would do with this Ravel example given that VSL tends to focus quite a bit on demoing classical pieces.


----------



## CT

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wonder how VSL Woodwinds would do with this Ravel example given that VSL tends to focus quite a bit on demoing classical pieces.



Those are the only woodwinds, handled well, that I'd expect to be able to do this kind of passage with little difficulty.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Hello dears ! Sorry I'm leaving the subject (very temporarily it is promised) but as I am sure to find enthusiasts and competents amateurs here, I take advantage: I have some problems with libraries which take a long time to load in Kontakt. Once the batch re-save function has been performed, and after having waited a few minutes everything goes much faster ... BUT, if I restart my computer it looks like everything is reset as before. Thank you for your help


----------



## Jamus

pierrevigneron said:


> Hello dears ! Sorry I'm leaving the subject (very temporarily it is promised) but as I am sure to find enthusiasts and competents amateurs here, I take advantage: I have some problems with libraries which take a long time to load in Kontakt. Once the batch re-save function has been performed, and after having waited a few minutes everything goes much faster ... BUT, if I restart my computer it looks like everything is reset as before. Thank you for your help



Running things as administrator is always a good starting point. Which libraries in particular? Check any firewall exceptions also, as I've had issues with EW PLAY as far as firewalls go. For me the Embertone solo strings have just always been insanely slow to load no matter what I do 🙁


----------



## Woodie1972

Check if your antivirus is scanning the folders of your samples. In my case it was and it took very long for the libraries to load. Once I excluded them from the scan, loading the samples took only a few seconds.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Great ! I created an exception in windows defender for my samples folder and everything works wonderfully thank you !


----------



## I like music

Anyone using IB or IW with CSS? Trying to make an effort to utilise CSS as my main library (taking a bit of a break from SM strings for now). Curious to know what people have learned about CSS with the Infinite libraries.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Jamus said:


> Can confirm that in my personal case using 4 instances of Kontakt as opposed to 2 significantly decreased crackling with 128 buffer, however any more Kontakt instances seem to have no effect.
> 
> Can also confirm yet again that for Reaper users the best condition for playback is to have piano roll closed and all tracks unarmed 👍
> 
> On a side note I'd be curious to know what audio interfaces any of you are using, if it's USB 3 and whether that might make a difference? I've had the same Focusrite 2i4 (gen 1?) for years and it often gives me blue screens on startup "DRIVER_POWER_STATE_FAILURE". Might be time for an upgrade 😂


I have a Zoom u24. It doesn't seem to get many updates driver-wise. Is that normal for an interface?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I was wondering if anyone had any idea how I can get the horns to sound a little warmer when playing triads? It can sound a little thin/metallic especially when I’m not playing the horns in unison.


----------



## Kent

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I was wondering if anyone had any idea how I can get the horns to sound a little warmer when playing triads? It can sound a little thin/metallic especially when I’m not playing the horns in unison.


Lower dynamics


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

kmaster said:


> Lower dynamics


Well in a test earlier the dynamics were mostly low. But obviously I’d want them to swell and get louder.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Anyone using IB or IW with CSS? Trying to make an effort to utilise CSS as my main library (taking a bit of a break from SM strings for now). Curious to know what people have learned about CSS with the Infinite libraries.



Yes. I've learned that if you're going to use it with CSS, you need to be very careful with managing resonance across those three libraries, especially if you want to get rid of CSS' excessive darkness and widen its tiny soundstage. I can't give specific advice beyond that since my best IB/IW mixes have used Hollywood Strings, and the quest for my ideal CSS + Infinite sound continues.


----------



## Jamus

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Well in a test earlier the dynamics were mostly low. But obviously I’d want them to swell and get louder.


I find the Dynamic curve to feel "exponential" I guess. I kind of like setting the dynamic range to somewhere like 50-70 so that the mod wheel doesn't feel so drastically different once it gets to 90-100 in volume or dynamics. Still sorting out a workflow really. I've been slacking pretty hard 😅

EDIT: So I think there is an illusion created when 0-127 volume is from silence to maximum loudness where you often feel it's too quiet so you end up riding the mod wheel too high but as a result get higher dynamic layers. I think the solution is narrowing the volume range between dynamic layers a little but it's a tough thing to balance. Not only that, but often when you can't reach 0 on modwheel I get frustrated when dealing with pianissimo passages so it's a pickle.

If all else fails high shelf like there's no tomorrow 👍


----------



## Nando Florestan

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I was wondering if anyone had any idea how I can get the horns to sound a little warmer when playing triads? It can sound a little thin/metallic especially when I’m not playing the horns in unison.



I feel the same thing, that is why I brought back one Sample Modeling horn into the sextet. No EQ or warming has helped make the Infinite horns sound more interesting when playing piano or pianissimo. The sound is rather dull. For the horns I am using Bersa Hall, mixed mic #5.

Maybe things improved right now by raising the volume of the extra reverberation. The send was too low in my case.


----------



## lljfnord

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I was wondering if anyone had any idea how I can get the horns to sound a little warmer when playing triads? It can sound a little thin/metallic especially when I’m not playing the horns in unison.


Has anyone tried mixing in just a touch of an old-style ROMpler instrument, down below IB's horns, when faced with a situation like this? I have a vintage Roland SC-88Pro that has good horn sounds on it. I wonder how they'd blend behind IB's horns as a "supporting character," especially considering that you can adjust the reverb and pan position of them manually.


----------



## Leandro Gardini

I like music said:


> Anyone using IB or IW with CSS? Trying to make an effort to utilise CSS as my main library (taking a bit of a break from SM strings for now). Curious to know what people have learned about CSS with the Infinite libraries.


I am. I've learned that you can match them smoothly by using the Bersa Hall and a final reverb on the top of them all. It's a marvelous combination.


----------



## I like music

leogardini said:


> I am. I've learned that you can match them smoothly by using the Bersa Hall and a final reverb on the top of them all. It's a marvelous combination.


Thanks a ton Leo. Great timing, since the very latest thing I tried a few hours ago was Bersa, and it already started to sound much better 

Good to get advice from the pros


----------



## aaronventure




----------



## Kent

aaronventure said:


>



very impressive, @aaronventure


----------



## Beans

Wow.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


>









Amazing. BTW which DAW is that?


----------



## Ivan Duch

Impressive indeed. Congratulations Aaron!



I like music said:


> Amazing. BTW which DAW is that?



That's Reaper.


----------



## I like music

Ivan Duch said:


> Impressive indeed. Congratulations Aaron!
> 
> 
> 
> That's Reaper.


Thanks @Ivan Duch - do you use it? And do you have Infinite?


----------



## daan1412

aaronventure said:


>



Hah, what a flex - I love it! Great job, Aaron.

PS. Is that a sneak peek for Infinite Strings?


----------



## Ivan Duch

I like music said:


> Thanks @Ivan Duch - do you use it? And do you have Infinite?



Yes, I purchased IW last week and have been using Reaper for 2 years.


----------



## Jack McKenzie

Having been an extremely satisfied user of both Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, the addition of the recent updates to both libraries has really blown me away. Here’s a short mock-up to test my new orchestral template. All brass and woodwind used in this test are all from the AV Infinite series!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

aaronventure said:


>



What strings are you using there, Aaron? They blend nicely with the Infinite stuff.


----------



## Bollen

NeonMediaKJT said:


> What strings are you using there, Aaron? They blend nicely with the Infinite stuff.


SampleModelling....? 😜


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Bollen said:


> SampleModelling....? 😜


Is that what they are?


----------



## CT

I like music said:


> I'm super interested in this. I had a worry that the average ear would FEEL that something was off in the energy of a phrase if it didn't flow naturally (but that they wouldn't be able to pinpoint what was wrong) even if the core tone was great.
> 
> Then I thought that the very opposite could be true: that a really great tone that sits in a hall really well might give the average ear more satisfaction than a well phrased line which doesn't have a natural space.
> 
> Then I confused myself further by thinking "what is the average ear?" Is it better than I give it credit for or worse?
> 
> Now I'm doubting everything, but definitely interested in your test, regardless.



Just remembered this. Of the eight non-musical people I asked, five preferred the non-IW example, but all agreed that both seemed to have different strengths instead of it being a matter of absolute good/bad.

I also asked three more people, actual musicians (a mezzo soprano, saxophonist, and organist/choirmaster), none of whom are very versed in the world of virtual instruments, and their feelings were less moderate, all describing IW as more "computerized." The saxophonist took particular issue with the nuances of the performance (slurs/tonguing etc.), which surprised me. Maybe too much uncanny valley?


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> Just remembered this. Of the eight non-musical people I asked, five preferred the non-IW example, but all agreed that both seemed to have different strengths instead of it being a matter of absolute good/bad.
> 
> I also asked three more people, actual musicians (a mezzo soprano, saxophonist, and organist/choirmaster), none of whom are very versed in the world of virtual instruments, and their feelings were less moderate, all describing IW as more "computerized." The saxophonist took particular issue with the nuances of the performance, which surprised me. Maybe too much uncanny valley?



Really interesting. I'd love to see more tests like these, across a variety of examples (styles of music etc). Recently I've fallen back into liking the more traditional libraries a bit more (adding CSS back into the mix, not just using SM strings). Being really cold and clinical, I realised that a lot of stuff I was writing could be done more than just fine (and actually more quickly) using CSS. In some instances I'd still go to SM strings, but ultimately I'm not able to get them all to sit in the room correctly. I do feel that IB and IW has done a fantastic job of closing that gap considerably. Quite a nice surprise, especially given that it is coming from a one-man army.

In the future I'm going to invest in a good computer rather than too many more libraries. I feel that between IB, CSB, HWB, CSS, SM Strings, HWS, BWW and IW I should have have five lifetimes' worth of music to write. And in fact I just need to really spend time with those libraries to get the most out of them.

I wonder where we'll be in 10 years. Whether the approaches Aaron is taking will be more the norm, or not.

PS Saxophonists ... what else would you expect? That said, I know very little about saxes, but I do know that from examples I've heard of all virtual saxes, I've failed to be convinced. I have no idea what it is, but the tradeoff is always too much (either tone or expression)


----------



## CT

I like music said:


> Really interesting. I'd love to see more tests like these, across a variety of examples (styles of music etc). Recently I've fallen back into liking the more traditional libraries a bit more (adding CSS back into the mix, not just using SM strings). Being really cold and clinical, I realised that a lot of stuff I was writing could be done more than just fine (and actually more quickly) using CSS. In some instances I'd still go to SM strings, but ultimately I'm not able to get them all to sit in the room correctly. I do feel that IB and IW has done a fantastic job of closing that gap considerably. Quite a nice surprise, especially given that it is coming from a one-man army.
> 
> In the future I'm going to invest in a good computer rather than too many more libraries. I feel that between IB, CSB, HWB, CSS, SM Strings, HWS, BWW and IW I should have have five lifetimes' worth of music to write. And in fact I just need to really spend time with those libraries to get the most out of them.
> 
> I wonder where we'll be in 10 years. Whether the approaches Aaron is taking will be more the norm, or not.
> 
> PS Saxophonists ... what else would you expect? That said, I know very little about saxes, but I do know that from examples I've heard of all virtual saxes, I've failed to be convinced. I have no idea what it is, but the tradeoff is always too much (either tone or expression)



Another very weird wrinkle to consider is how many average ears have become attuned to *samples* rather than real instruments as "normal," that is, traditional samples, and how that will even more color responses to hybrid approaches.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Anyone else get mad anxiety having more than one library of a specific section ie strings, brass, woodwinds? 
Now I have IB, the fact it's so different in its approach makes me anxious that I'm going to forget how to use traditional libraries that I have etc. Sounds dumb, I know lol. When I made a bunch of tests using IB, I tried going back to CSB and found I was forgetting how to use it efficiently and I also found I was noticing the crossfade a lot more which was really bugging me.


----------



## Bollen

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Is that what they are?


I was just kidding, I have no idea...


Mike T said:


> Another very weird wrinkle to consider is how many average ears have become attuned to *samples* rather than real instruments as "normal," that is, traditional samples, and how that will even more color responses to hybrid approaches.


That is sOOoo true...!


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## I like music

Mike T said:


> Another very weird wrinkle to consider is how many average ears have become attuned to *samples* rather than real instruments as "normal," that is, traditional samples, and how that will even more color responses to hybrid approaches.



Hadn't even considered this. In fact, even though I like to listen to what I'd consider _standard_ orchestral music (mainly symphonies from 19th and 20th centuries) and tend to think that I have a semi-decent idea of what the orchestra should sound like, I am always surprised and blown away by how different it sounds when listening to it live, which I don't get to do very often. If anything, the first 5-10 minutes of a concert are a weird period of readjustment where I feel a bit disappointed in the sound. And then I settle in, and never want to hear even a good recording of the piece again.

But 99.9% of what I listen to is music recorded in studios etc so that's my reference. I can only imagine how odd the hybrid approach might sound (instinctively) to the people you described, who are attunded to the sampled sound.



NeonMediaKJT said:


> Anyone else get mad anxiety having more than one library of a specific section ie strings, brass, woodwinds?
> Now I have IB, the fact it's so different in its approach makes me anxious that I'm going to forget how to use traditional libraries that I have etc. Sounds dumb, I know lol. When I made a bunch of tests using IB, I tried going back to CSB and found I was forgetting how to use it efficiently and I also found I was noticing the crossfade a lot more which was really bugging me.



150% - I just brought CSS back into the mix, and now I cannot use it. I have forgotten how. The workflow is sending me loopy.


----------



## CT

I like music said:


> I can only imagine how odd the hybrid approach might sound (instinctively) to the people you described, who are attunded to the sampled sound.



Yeah. I think we've gotten to a point where people have instinctively accepted the way in which samples aren't quite there, and anything new will require adjusting to a new way in which things aren't quite there.


----------



## John R Wilson

Mike T said:


> Just remembered this. Of the eight non-musical people I asked, five preferred the non-IW example, but all agreed that both seemed to have different strengths instead of it being a matter of absolute good/bad.
> 
> I also asked three more people, actual musicians (a mezzo soprano, saxophonist, and organist/choirmaster), none of whom are very versed in the world of virtual instruments, and their feelings were less moderate, all describing IW as more "computerized." The saxophonist took particular issue with the nuances of the performance (slurs/tonguing etc.), which surprised me. Maybe too much uncanny valley?



What examples did you use to compare IW with and which were the other libraries used?


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## ALittleNightMusic

So apart from Aaron’s great walkthroughs, I don’t see too many other newer videos about these libraries but then I ran across this one and he does a pretty great job going through Infinite Brass and highlighting its strengths:


----------



## Jamus

Mike T said:


> Yeah. I think we've gotten to a point where people have instinctively accepted the way in which samples aren't quite there, and anything new will require adjusting to a new way in which things aren't quite there.



To be fair I don't think any sample/modelled library is intended to be a replacement of real players, just an approximation delivered in a relatively affordable package for bedroom musicians such as myself, and professionals who should require a rough draft before spending the money for players and studio time. I think we all understand this anyway.


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## tabulius

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So apart from Aaron’s great walkthroughs, I don’t see too many other newer videos about these libraries but then I ran across this one and he does a pretty great job going through Infinite Brass and highlighting its strengths:




Yeah, I just saw this a few days ago and loved how the guy was so excited about the Infinite series. I really hope that there is a Black Friday sale of the bundle. I'm middle of building and updating my template and I'm balancing all the instruments. More and more I appreciate Sample Modeling, Performance Samples, and others that have great playability. So Infinite series is definitely on my radar.


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## El Buhdai

Currently working on my newest version of Infinite Sections, my custom ensemble manager for Patcher in FL Studio 20 using Infinite Brass 1.5 and Infinite Woodwinds 2.0. I've been using this privately ever since Infinite Brass 1.4. After that update I released a basic version on VI-C. I've still been making changes to it for my own work. It allows me to control every instrument in a section as an ensemble or split to divisi with the click of a button or the use of CC, as well as allowing you to add CC messages to Playlist clips without having to scroll past 500 other options (not an exaggeration). It's a huge time saver for quick writing. Play or write the part in once, and if the ensemble button is on, the part will be played on all instruments in the section.

Hopefully I can get it out to Infinite fans on FL Studio in the coming weeks, provided I can find time after meeting my other responsibilities. Here are some screenshots of what the custom ensemble UI looks like now:










For this update I ported this system to the woodwinds, added a handy visual display of the divisi in the top left corner, and will be adding a knob that accepts CC and passes those messages to Kontakt as pitch bend. Great for people like me who program their music instead of playing and don't have a keyboard or access to a pitch wheel.


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## Leandro Gardini

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So apart from Aaron’s great walkthroughs, I don’t see too many other newer videos about these libraries but then I ran across this one and he does a pretty great job going through Infinite Brass and highlighting its strengths:



So far I have watched only the 10 minutes of your video and I can say that I have exactly the same impression and feeling as you do.


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## shawnsingh

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I was wondering if anyone had any idea how I can get the horns to sound a little warmer when playing triads? It can sound a little thin/metallic especially when I’m not playing the horns in unison.



Next time I'm at my music computer I'll grab a screenshot of my IB 1.5 horns EQ, which I felt made the horn' feel "warm". Mainly I think it just required reducing higher frequencies relative to mids and lows.


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## NeonMediaKJT

shawnsingh said:


> Next time I'm at my music computer I'll grab a screenshot of my IB 1.5 horns EQ, which I felt made the horn' feel "warm". Mainly I think it just required reducing higher frequencies relative to mids and lows.


thanks, mate!


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## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Next time I'm at my music computer I'll grab a screenshot of my IB 1.5 horns EQ, which I felt made the horn' feel "warm". Mainly I think it just required reducing higher frequencies relative to mids and lows.


While you're at it, mind throwing in the other brass EQs? 

I used your EQ v2 that you had done for 1.4, and am still using that EQ profile exactly as you had it. I love it, and would love to know what you've changed!


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## duringtheafter

I like music said:


> While you're at it, mind throwing in the other brass EQs?
> 
> I used your EQ v2 that you had done for 1.4, and am still using that EQ profile exactly as you had it. I love it, and would love to know what you've changed!


Newbie question, but WHERE exactly do you modify the IB instruments' EQ in your DAW - directly in Kontakt? As an insert or something? I'm confused.


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## I like music

duringtheafter said:


> Newbie question, but WHERE exactly do you modify the IB instruments' EQ in your DAW - directly in Kontakt? As an insert or something? I'm confused.


I do it in the channel strip in cubase personally using their own eq (frequency) 

What daw you using?


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## duringtheafter

I like music said:


> I do it in the channel strip in cubase personally using their own eq (frequency)
> 
> What daw you using?


That's helpful! I'm using Cubase 9.5.


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## I like music

duringtheafter said:


> That's helpful! I'm using Cubase 9.5.


Got it. Lots of people who are vastly more experienced than me, do it in various places (on their verbs, IN their verbs, individual instruments, whole sections, (perhaps in Kontakt? I imagine there is an EQ somewhere there too) etc. but I've found it easiest on the channel strip. Keep in mind that I'm an amateur, but it seems to work.

Yeah, I just stick it as an Insert on the whole section. I've got my tpts, horns, bones, and tuba set up as different rack instruments in Kontakt. And on that channel, Frequency is pretty flexible for me.


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## Max Bonsi

Hi guys, a question:
With IW if I set up a Flute patch, choose the blend of the mics and all the other parameters then is it possible to save these settings and start with another instrument (for ex an Oboe) and have it in the same exact space/settings?
Maybe it has something to do with the "save instrument as" in kontakt but I'm not sure...
Any ideas?

Thanks!
Max


----------



## Kent

Max Bonsi said:


> Hi guys, a question:
> With IW if I set up a Flute patch, choose the blend of the mics and all the other parameters then is it possible to save these settings and start with another instrument (for ex an Oboe) and have it in the same exact space/settings?
> Maybe it has something to do with the "save instrument as" in kontakt but I'm not sure...
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks!
> Max


No, it doesn’t work that way. But you can take a screenshot or write down some notes and conform each patch to the degree that you wish. If you save them as presets or as part of a template then you won’t have to do that again!...until 2.1 comes out 😏


----------



## I like music

Max Bonsi said:


> Hi guys, a question:
> With IW if I set up a Flute patch, choose the blend of the mics and all the other parameters then is it possible to save these settings and start with another instrument (for ex an Oboe) and have it in the same exact space/settings?
> Maybe it has something to do with the "save instrument as" in kontakt but I'm not sure...
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks!
> Max


I have a midi track on like bar 200 (further on than even the longest piece I'd compose) 

Thta track has all the CC lanes visible which affect the instruments eg cc 25 is mix position etc. I then just tweak one and paste it to the others. I believe in cubase you can link tracks so that if you change cc in one, it'll change it in all others. Weird workaround but actually very very useful!


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## Max Bonsi

kmaster said:


> No, it doesn’t work that way. But you can take a screenshot or write down some notes and conform each patch to the degree that you wish. If you save them as presets or as part of a template then you won’t have to do that again!...until 2.1 comes out 😏


thank u
problem is that snapshots are useful only for one specific instrument
How can I save them as presets like u suggest me?
And yes once my template will be done there will be no more need for this


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## Max Bonsi

I like music said:


> I have a midi track on like bar 200 (further on than even the longest piece I'd compose)
> 
> Thta track has all the CC lanes visible which affect the instruments eg cc 25 is mix position etc. I then just tweak one and paste it to the others. I believe in cubase you can link tracks so that if you change cc in one, it'll change it in all others. Weird workaround but actually very very useful!


Thanks I will keep this in mind


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## Kent

Max Bonsi said:


> thank u
> problem is that snapshots are useful only for one specific instrument
> How can I save them as presets like u suggest me?
> And yes once my template will be done there will be no more need for this


It’s still per-instrument, but there are only ~2 dozen, so it takes less than 5 min for setting and saving the whole batch.


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## Woodie1972

I like music said:


> I have a midi track on like bar 200 (further on than even the longest piece I'd compose)
> 
> Thta track has all the CC lanes visible which affect the instruments eg cc 25 is mix position etc. I then just tweak one and paste it to the others. I believe in cubase you can link tracks so that if you change cc in one, it'll change it in all others. Weird workaround but actually very very useful!


What you mean with controlling several midi channels at once is done through midi sends. Here's a video explaining how it works, saves a lot of time. 

Midi sends


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## Denkii

I am looking into setting up midi transform so that I can have cc1, 11, 17 and 18 on my modwheel and have everything but 1 stay a bit under 1 and have it randomly modulate in between a range for each.
Maybe I can make something work that is good enough.


----------



## I like music

Woodie1972 said:


> What you mean with controlling several midi channels at once is done through midi sends. Here's a video explaining how it works, saves a lot of time.
> 
> Midi sends


Ah this is amazing! I had seen another way where it creates a copy of a master track, but this might be easier. Thanks!


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## shawnsingh

You can also just set up a temporary midi control for CC22, 23 and 24, which are the close/main/ambient level controls, and select all tracks and set them as desired.


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## Woodie1972

Denkii said:


> I am looking into setting up midi transform so that I can have cc1, 11, 17 and 18 on my modwheel and have everything but 1 stay a bit under 1 and have it randomly modulate in between a range for each.
> Maybe I can make something work that is good enough.


Have you tried midimap by cinesamples? Not sure if it's what you're after, but it is a nice Kontakt script.


----------



## Max Bonsi

shawnsingh said:


> You can also just set up a temporary midi control for CC22, 23 and 24, which are the close/main/ambient level controls, and select all tracks and set them as desired.


thank u
very interesting
i will try


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## shawnsingh

DivingInSpace said:


> Can you maybe share a screenshot of this automation? I'd be curious to see how you did it. As a non brass player, details like these don't come easy, so this could be a huge help.



Attached an example of a brass chorale with and without pitch bend on trumpets 1 and 3, and screenshot of the pitch bend for both trumpets. Many thoughts to point out:

There are two parts to the trick: (a) instruments have generally slightly detuned pitches relative to each other, and (b) some very minor modulation, analogous to how a chorus FX would behave.
I only bothered to add pitch bend for trumpet 1 and 3, because they're the only two instruments that play in unison most of the time. Other instruments aren't doubling so pitch bend isn't necessary. I also feel like the pitch bend trick isn't necessary for different instruments that may double. Like piccolo trumpet + B-flat trumpet don't need this trick to be doubled.
Honestly, it sounds fine without the pitch-bend trick too - I'm sure a lot of people may prefer the sound without pitch bend in fact. But for my taste on this piece, I did want the more "ensemble-ish" sound.
A good example of where the ensemble effect is most audible is around 0:20-0:25. It's borderline out of tune, I know I didn't do a perfect job of getting it right. It's already painstaking enough to try doing this, because I'm using only a computer mouse for this and it requires editing very small pitch bend differences.
I have to admit I haven't yet tried increasing humanize in the Infinite instruments yet. There's a very high chance that will do just as well and this whole bother with editing pitch bend manually might be unnecessary. On the other hand, I like having the more precise humanization as a default, and just using this trick on some strategic spots where detuning can make things sound more brassy, and having specific manual control over how that detune sounds.
A reference for why this pitch bend technique is worth considering at all - listen to sustain ensemble notes on Berlin Brass trumpet ensemble patch. It's very clear to me that each player is trying to stay in tune with other players but there's a natural inaccuracy that even pro players have (at least in a arduous sampling session)
For IB 1.4 at least, slight different detune of each horn made the 6-horn ensemble sound more huge and epic. I think this is one of the secrets to why people feel like sampled instruments usually need twice the number of brass players to sound as epic as live recordings. I haven't bothered to try this for 1.5, the humanization seems good enough for me so far, but I still think it's an idea to keep in our toolbox for epic horns and a very brassy sound.
I don't know if this will sound right to real brass players, I think there will be some specific ways that professional players waver their pitch (like trying to stay in tune with each other) that would require specific pitch bend curves, and a real brass player may pick up on that difference.


----------



## shawnsingh

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I was wondering if anyone had any idea how I can get the horns to sound a little warmer when playing triads? It can sound a little thin/metallic especially when I’m not playing the horns in unison.



Attached a horn example and screenshot of MIDI editor.
0:00 - 0:40 solo horn
0:40 - 1:12 6-horns unison
1:12 - 1:18 two horns divisi
1:18 - end four horns playing triads, top line doubled


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## stfciu

shawnsingh said:


> Attached an example of a brass chorale with and without pitch bend on trumpets 1 and 3, and screenshot of the pitch bend for both trumpets. Many thoughts to point out:
> 
> There are two parts to the trick: (a) instruments have generally slightly detuned pitches relative to each other, and (b) some very minor modulation, analogous to how a chorus FX would behave.
> I only bothered to add pitch bend for trumpet 1 and 3, because they're the only two instruments that play in unison most of the time. Other instruments aren't doubling so pitch bend isn't necessary. I also feel like the pitch bend trick isn't necessary for different instruments that may double. Like piccolo trumpet + B-flat trumpet don't need this trick to be doubled.
> Honestly, it sounds fine without the pitch-bend trick too - I'm sure a lot of people may prefer the sound without pitch bend in fact. But for my taste on this piece, I did want the more "ensemble-ish" sound.
> A good example of where the ensemble effect is most audible is around 0:20-0:25. It's borderline out of tune, I know I didn't do a perfect job of getting it right. It's already painstaking enough to try doing this, because I'm using only a computer mouse for this and it requires editing very small pitch bend differences.
> I have to admit I haven't yet tried increasing humanize in the Infinite instruments yet. There's a very high chance that will do just as well and this whole bother with editing pitch bend manually might be unnecessary. On the other hand, I like having the more precise humanization as a default, and just using this trick on some strategic spots where detuning can make things sound more brassy, and having specific manual control over how that detune sounds.
> A reference for why this pitch bend technique is worth considering at all - listen to sustain ensemble notes on Berlin Brass trumpet ensemble patch. It's very clear to me that each player is trying to stay in tune with other players but there's a natural inaccuracy that even pro players have (at least in a arduous sampling session)
> For IB 1.4 at least, slight different detune of each horn made the 6-horn ensemble sound more huge and epic. I think this is one of the secrets to why people feel like sampled instruments usually need twice the number of brass players to sound as epic as live recordings. I haven't bothered to try this for 1.5, the humanization seems good enough for me so far, but I still think it's an idea to keep in our toolbox for epic horns and a very brassy sound.
> I don't know if this will sound right to real brass players, I think there will be some specific ways that professional players waver their pitch (like trying to stay in tune with each other) that would require specific pitch bend curves, and a real brass player may pick up on that difference.


The difference is very obvious. Thank you for the tip.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> While you're at it, mind throwing in the other brass EQs?
> 
> I used your EQ v2 that you had done for 1.4, and am still using that EQ profile exactly as you had it. I love it, and would love to know what you've changed!



@NeonMediaKJT forgot to attach EQ screenshot and mix details on previous post, it's here.

Here's my latest mix. I still want to tweak it further over time. I think trombones could use more work, a bit more brightness perhaps. Trumpets, I'm inclined to reduce the 10k band (#4) by another dB or two.

All Infinite instruments use Bersa venue, basically mic mix 2
I added EWQL Spaces 2, Hollywood scoring stage FR, at -20 or -21 dBFS wet. I kept the default predelay.
Each instrument group has a different EQ, all shown in the attached screenshot
Without reverb, I found that Bersa alone sounded great, with or without my EQ settings, then it's just a matter of taste. With the added reverb, however, I felt my EQ added an important aspect of feeling more "distant" that really helped sell the illusion.

Bersa-only --> I love this drier sound. Crisp and detailed.
Bersa-only + the Hollywood scoring stage reverb + the EQ settings --> feels like a larger sound stage that still has some brightness to it.

At -20 dBFS, the Hollywood scoring stage reverb preset somehow really "melted into" the Bersa sound. It adds a bit of the mid range energy back, but in the form of reverberation instead of dry signal, which I feel helps keep the clarity while still keeping the nice solid "warm" tone of the mids.


----------



## Jamus

Max Bonsi said:


> Hi guys, a question:
> With IW if I set up a Flute patch, choose the blend of the mics and all the other parameters then is it possible to save these settings and start with another instrument (for ex an Oboe) and have it in the same exact space/settings?
> Maybe it has something to do with the "save instrument as" in kontakt but I'm not sure...
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks!
> Max


If you have a MIDI controller just arm your entire Infinite template and set the mic for all of them at the same time 👍


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

shawnsingh said:


> @NeonMediaKJT forgot to attach EQ screenshot and mix details on previous post, it's here.
> 
> Here's my latest mix. I still want to tweak it further over time. I think trombones could use more work, a bit more brightness perhaps. Trumpets, I'm inclined to reduce the 10k band (#4) by another dB or two.
> 
> All Infinite instruments use Bersa venue, basically mic mix 2
> I added EWQL Spaces 2, Hollywood scoring stage FR, at -20 or -21 dBFS wet. I kept the default predelay.
> Each instrument group has a different EQ, all shown in the attached screenshot
> Without reverb, I found that Bersa alone sounded great, with or without my EQ settings, then it's just a matter of taste. With the added reverb, however, I felt my EQ added an important aspect of feeling more "distant" that really helped sell the illusion.
> 
> Bersa-only --> I love this drier sound. Crisp and detailed.
> Bersa-only + the Hollywood scoring stage reverb + the EQ settings --> feels like a larger sound stage that still has some brightness to it.
> 
> At -20 dBFS, the Hollywood scoring stage reverb preset somehow really "melted into" the Bersa sound. It adds a bit of the mid range energy back, but in the form of reverberation instead of dry signal, which I feel helps keep the clarity while still keeping the nice solid "warm" tone of the mids.


Thank you for taking the time to show me all this!
So you add EQ on the whole Brass section as a whole? Do you do any individual EQ'ing? I would like to use Bersa Hall, however I've found that Valhalla Room doesn't really mesh well with it. I feel like Valhalla Room can make it sound even more metallic (maybe because of the fizzy tail). Perhaps I need a convolution reverb to work better with Infinite.


----------



## aaronventure

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Perhaps I need a convolution reverb to work better with Infinite.


FabFilter Pro-R is what I use. They have a 30-day trial.


----------



## Denkii

@aaronventure any chance you'd explain how to set up the leap motion controller + geco the way you use it for your libraries?
It is not super expensive and I would be interested in it if it doesn't require too much of a NASA-brain.


----------



## aaronventure

Denkii said:


> @aaronventure any chance you'd explain how to set up the leap motion controller + geco the way you use it for your libraries?
> It is not super expensive and I would be interested in it if it doesn't require too much of a NASA-brain.


Install Leap Motion V2 software (Geco doesn't support newer), install LoopMIDI, set up a virtual port, set the Sysex buffer to 512 (otherwise it mutes the port on 4+ simultaneous controllers), install Geco and route it the virtual port. Enable the port in your DAW as an input.

Here's my Geco settings file.


----------



## ccook

I just wanted to commend @aaronventure for his continued work on these incredible instruments(in the truest sense of the word). They are really bringing us close to bridging the gap between paper/the flexibility of western notation and DAW. I'd like to share a short fanfare piece I'm working on using Infinite Brass 1.5 and VSL Synchron Timpani 1 - any feedback would be much appreciated.


----------



## unclecheeks

Can anyone comment on load times for the Infinite instruments? I recently got 8dio intimate woodwinds (and intimate strings as a frebie) and the load times are in the neighborhood of 15-20s. Since I don't use a template and load instruments in dynamically via mac spotlight/Ableton rack presets, these load times can be a real inspiration killer. 

I keep watching the Infinite walkthroughs and really enjoying Aaron's approach to these. I know there's a lot of stuff going on under-the-hood, but the end-user presentation is consistent and simple. Not to mention the insane playability of course. After lurking around for a couple of months, I think I might finally take the plunge... which may effectively mean that I'll no longer be coming around here to feed my GAS! 

@aaronventure - I understand the legato bypass is only recommended for sketching, due to all voices inheriting the same performance and therefore sounding "synthy", which makes sense. Have you considered adding some random scaling to dynamics and vibrato to expand this feature? For example, each note press / voice above 1 could generate a random scaling factor for that voice's dyn & vib min/max ranges to create subtle variations between the sustained voices. Of course, there's still the issue of all voices originating from same position, but maybe that could also be solved behind-the-scenes with some slight panning and volume randomization. Maybe each additional voice gradually fans out from the position specified in the position pane.


----------



## Denkii

Load times are like...2-3 seconds.
The patches are tiny. Same goes for multis.
I don't think I have any Kontakt libraries that load faster than these.

Edit: that specifically refers to enabling disabled Kontakt Tracks with the patches already inserted since that's how I run my template. I don't know if that makes any difference but the point that I don't have anything that loads faster than these is still holding.


----------



## shawnsingh

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Thank you for taking the time to show me all this!
> So you add EQ on the whole Brass section as a whole? Do you do any individual EQ'ing? I would like to use Bersa Hall, however I've found that Valhalla Room doesn't really mesh well with it. I feel like Valhalla Room can make it sound even more metallic (maybe because of the fizzy tail). Perhaps I need a convolution reverb to work better with Infinite.



Actually the EQ screenshot I gave actually has 8 separate EQs, one for each instrument group - flutes/oboes/clarinets/bassoons/horns/trumpets/trombones/tubas. In each Kontakt instrument I routed each group of instruments to a separate output, so in Cubase they're in different channels and I can insert different EQs for each.

I did try Valhalla Room, too, at first, and I didn't feel it worked for me either. Also, I don't think it matters whether you use convolution or algorithmic reverb. Fabfilter Pro-R could be a pretty great option.

Hope that answered your questions?


----------



## Beans

Denkii said:


> I don't think I have any Kontakt libraries that load faster than these.



Totally agreed.


----------



## aaronventure

unclecheeks said:


> Can anyone comment on load times for the Infinite instruments?


After batch resaving it's... instant? If you load all 29 your project size won't increase more than 4 MB. 



unclecheeks said:


> I understand the legato bypass is only recommended for sketching, due to all voices inheriting the same performance and therefore sounding "synthy", which makes sense. Have you considered adding some random scaling to dynamics and vibrato to expand this feature? For example, each note press / voice above 1 could generate a random scaling factor for that voice's dyn & vib min/max ranges to create subtle variations between the sustained voices. Of course, there's still the issue of all voices originating from same position, but maybe that could also be solved behind-the-scenes with some slight panning and volume randomization. Maybe each additional voice gradually fans out from the position specified in the position pane.


The thing is that the whole engine is designed for monophonic playback. The layers are phase-aligned samples across 4 groups which you crossfade between.

What you're talking about would require at least a partial rewrite, and is something I'm doing for Strings. It's a bit of a different story there because I'm approaching the whole thing from the ground up with that in mind (ensemble patches). 

As for having a single instrument play a fully non-linear chord with Legato Bypass... I don't think it's worth the headache, sorry. 

The Legato Bypass workflow is you decide the voicing after previewing it, record the top/bottom line, then either record other lines or, if you're gonna be taking a shortcut with humanization, copy and paste MIDI and just move the notes to form the chords you want.


----------



## unclecheeks

aaronventure said:


> After batch resaving it's... instant? If you load all 29 your project size won't increase more than 4 MB.
> 
> 
> The thing is that the whole engine is designed for monophonic playback. The layers are phase-aligned samples across 4 groups which you crossfade between.
> 
> What you're talking about would require at least a partial rewrite, and is something I'm doing for Strings. It's a bit of a different story there because I'm approaching the whole thing from the ground up with that in mind (ensemble patches).
> 
> As for having a single instrument play a fully non-linear chord with Legato Bypass... I don't think it's worth the headache, sorry.
> 
> The Legato Bypass workflow is you decide the voicing after previewing it, record the top/bottom line, then either record other lines or, if you're gonna be taking a shortcut with humanization, copy and paste MIDI and just move the notes to form the chords you want.



Makes sense, thanks for taking the time to respond.

I might experiment with racking up several instances in an Ableton instrument rack, then using dyn/vib cc scaling via Max For Live on each rack lane to add this randomization. I already have a M4L device that splits each voice from a polyphonic midi chord and sends it to a different downstream instrument. Would be nice to write chords from a single midi track, so I’m curious to hear if/how this works. 

Looking forward to seeing how you tackle the strings. Good luck!


----------



## aaronventure

unclecheeks said:


> Would be nice to write chords from a single midi track, so I’m curious to hear if/how this works.


You can look into this multiscript. Or Divisimate, which will let you do a lot more than that.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

So what are the odds that there will be a sale soon, as in this month?


----------



## timbit2006

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So what are the odds that there will be a sale soon, as in this month?


I was just sitting here listening to the woodwinds demos on the page wondering when and hoping there would be a sale this month then got the e-mail about your comment here.
Hopefully that's some sort of a good omen


----------



## stfciu

Hi,

I am lurking on the Infinite Series for a long while now and I am really impressed.
The approach for the playability and the scripting details that Aaron brought into attention.
The tone maybe is not fully my kind of story but is very fine. I believe this comes from the fact of using the convo approach which for me at least will never get the same characteristics as real recordings but I am really interested what may come next beside the three stages that could widen the tone alternatives.
The lighweight also is very significant factor that makes the libraries shine.

The fact that Aaron constantly works on getting his product better and better is really admirable.

As now is very good time for detailed analysis of different options the market gives us I strongly consider buying the series (in the same time I also hope on some discount during BF) as I am still looking for some cohesive all round orchestral libraries to complement my beloved BHCT and Project SAM stuff.

I nearly went through all of the thread pages (really though taks ) but still would like to ask a couple of questions (I am sorry if I missed something that already answers my questions):

1. There are a lot of demos with the new Mozarteum convo but I can't find much about the dry studio. Maybe I am missing something. Would like to check how close can I get to the BHCT and whether I could enhance it with the flexibility of Infinite Series.

2. Though there is no real legato my ears say the legato transitions though they are scripted "fool my brain" very cleverly. However there is always a thought at the back of my head "it is scripted stuff" suggesting this products may be somewhere condemned. Could you please tell me what are your experience about it and how much do you care about that fact? Does it bother you during using the library?

3. As there were couple of updates both for brass and woodwinds I would like to ask how presently the ensembles sound stands. Is it actually possible to achieve similar characteristics to real ensemble recordings? I know the approach here is different than regulary found in other libraries (combining singular patches into ensembles rather than having ensemble recording) and I heard both cons and pros on that.

edit:
4. How well the library is liable on the mixing techniques. Especially as the implemented convolution system is actually inside the library I am wondering how to use tape or saturation for example to get "that" sound I want. In normal situation I put this before any reverb or stage positioning but maybe it's not the case here. Would like to know what are your experience on this.

Will be grateful for response.

BR
Seba


----------



## Markrs

unclecheeks said:


> Can anyone comment on load times for the Infinite instruments? I recently got 8dio intimate woodwinds (and intimate strings as a frebie) and the load times are in the neighborhood of 15-20s. Since I don't use a template and load instruments in dynamically via mac spotlight/Ableton rack presets, these load times can be a real inspiration killer.
> 
> I keep watching the Infinite walkthroughs and really enjoying Aaron's approach to these. I know there's a lot of stuff going on under-the-hood, but the end-user presentation is consistent and simple. Not to mention the insane playability of course. After lurking around for a couple of months, I think I might finally take the plunge... which may effectively mean that I'll no longer be coming around here to feed my GAS!
> 
> @aaronventure - I understand the legato bypass is only recommended for sketching, due to all voices inheriting the same performance and therefore sounding "synthy", which makes sense. Have you considered adding some random scaling to dynamics and vibrato to expand this feature? For example, each note press / voice above 1 could generate a random scaling factor for that voice's dyn & vib min/max ranges to create subtle variations between the sustained voices. Of course, there's still the issue of all voices originating from same position, but maybe that could also be solved behind-the-scenes with some slight panning and volume randomization. Maybe each additional voice gradually fans out from the position specified in the position pane.


It has been mentioned in a few threads but make sure any virus protection is not scanning the library when you try to use it. You can stop it from scanning it by adding an exception to where you sample libraries are located.


----------



## I like music

My computer was built for about £500 TWO AMERICAN PRESIDENTS ago, that's how old it is. And these instruments load within a microsecond. Can also somehow run them all at the same time (Mix Mic positions). Pretty easygoing library as far as resource is concerned, I feel. Certainly for RAM.


----------



## Denkii

Can confirm that it loads pretty much instantly if the track is enabled and Kontakt is already loaded.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Still loving the new Brass and Winds. One extra bonus is that I'm mocking stuff up for a session, and there's far less prep to do for orchestration & copying since everything is just one track per instrument.
I feel like I get a phasing sound sometimes on the brass in particular - I wonder if that's just how it sounds when you don't modulate frequently enough? I'm talking solo instruments here, not phasing between two competing horns, for example.


----------



## Saxer

I depends on the phasing. There's a technical phasing between identical signals/samples that sounds very unnatural and ugly. And there's natural phasing. Having two trumpet players in a room playing in unison are phasing too. That's what makes the ensemble sound. But the phasing isn't static. If it starts to sound unnatural I'd look into modulation, humanisation amount, and room placing.


----------



## aaronventure

stfciu said:


> There are a lot of demos with the new Mozarteum convo but I can't find much about the dry studio. Maybe I am missing something. Would like to check how close can I get to the BHCT and whether I could enhance it with the flexibility of Infinite Series.


If you go to the webpage and click on "MORE" next to each demo, you'll find a render of it in each space.



stfciu said:


> Though there is no real legato my ears say the legato transitions though they are scripted "fool my brain" very cleverly. However there is always a thought at the back of my head "it is scripted stuff" suggesting this products may be somewhere condemned. Could you please tell me what are your experience about it and how much do you care about that fact? Does it bother you during using the library?


I might not be the one you're looking to answer this question but personally I was always incredibly bothered by piss-poor programming of legato in other libraries. Whether or not the fact that it was recorded live is somehow better, even if it's only within 1 speed/context and poorly programmed, is down to your personal preference. For me, the only thing that matters is the end result.



stfciu said:


> 4. How well the library is liable on the mixing techniques. Especially as the implemented convolution system is actually inside the library I am wondering how to use tape or saturation for example to get "that" sound I want. In normal situation I put this before any reverb or stage positioning but maybe it's not the case here. Would like to know what are your experience on this.


There's always tape on the master for each demo I did. There's very little noise/hiss in the samples. Not nearly the amount you get when you record an instrument in situ in a hall. Not to even mention how in that case noise stacks up when you're playing multiple samples at the same time. Convolution cannot apply noise/hiss, it only superimposes one sound on top of another. It's a bit of an uncanny valley if you turn your mix up and there's just no noise at all during soft parts. Plugins which are emulations of vintage gear often add some hiss to the final output. You can also look into RC-20 Retro Color and pick one out of many noise patterns they have, then shape it, modulate it etc. If you wanna have your piece sound like a dated 1950s recording, RC-20 will also let you do that in a couple of clicks.

I find it to be a good thing that Infinite has no audible hiss in the final output. It doesn't result in awkward-sounding moments when a noisy sample fades out and the noise level/floor is suddenly changed in the middle of a piece.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> If you go to the webpage and click on "MORE" next to each demo, you'll find a render of it in each space.
> 
> 
> I might not be the one you're looking to answer this question but personally I was always incredibly bothered by piss-poor programming of legato in other libraries. Whether or not the fact that it was recorded live is somehow better, even if it's only within 1 speed/context and poorly programmed, is down to your personal preference. For me, the only thing that matters is the end result.
> 
> 
> There's always tape on the master for each demo I did. There's very little noise/hiss in the samples. Not nearly the amount you get when you record a instrument in situ in a hall. Not to even mention how in that case noise stacks up when you're playing multiple instruments at the same time. Convolution cannot apply noise/hiss, it only superimposes one sound on top of another. It's a bit of an uncanny valley if you turn your mix up and there's just no noise at all during soft parts. Plugins which are emulations of vintage gear often add some hiss to the final output. You can also look into RC-20 Retro Color and pick one out of many noise patterns they have, then shape it, modulate it etc. If you wanna your piece sound like a dated 1950s recording, RC-20 will also let you do that in a couple of clicks.
> 
> I find it to be a good thing that Infinite has no audible hiss in the final output. It doesn't result in awkward-sounding moments when a noisy sample fades out and the noise level/floor is suddenly changed in the middle of a piece.



Really useful information! Assuming the same principle applies regarding noise for strings which will be released by the end of November? But on a serious note, we're talking about many, many more instrument recordings here than with the woods and brass right? So in each case, you'd be removing that noise. Is it the same process you used on the brass and woods or is there something different about strings when it comes to capturing the sound? Any quirks of the section/ensembles that mean that you have to apply fundamentally different processes?


----------



## DivingInSpace

stfciu said:


> 2. Though there is no real legato my ears say the legato transitions though they are scripted "fool my brain" very cleverly. However there is always a thought at the back of my head "it is scripted stuff" suggesting this products may be somewhere condemned. Could you please tell me what are your experience about it and how much do you care about that fact? Does it bother you during using the library?
> 
> 3. As there were couple of updates both for brass and woodwinds I would like to ask how presently the ensembles sound stands. Is it actually possible to achieve similar characteristics to real ensemble recordings? I know the approach here is different than regulary found in other libraries (combining singular patches into ensembles rather than having ensemble recording) and I heard both cons and pros on that.


While i am by no means a pro, i personally can't hear that the legato is scripted, and especially in a mix i highly doubt that most people would hear it and think "Oh, that is not recorded legato". I actually think this beats a lot of recorded legato because it isn't limited by the amount of recorded transitions, it just works imo.

When it comes to ensembles, you might be able to hear that they are not recorded when playing soloed, but again i doubt that too many people would recognise that in a mix.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

shawnsingh said:


> Actually the EQ screenshot I gave actually has 8 separate EQs, one for each instrument group - flutes/oboes/clarinets/bassoons/horns/trumpets/trombones/tubas. In each Kontakt instrument I routed each group of instruments to a separate output, so in Cubase they're in different channels and I can insert different EQs for each.
> 
> I did try Valhalla Room, too, at first, and I didn't feel it worked for me either. Also, I don't think it matters whether you use convolution or algorithmic reverb. Fabfilter Pro-R could be a pretty great option.
> 
> Hope that answered your questions?


Thanks mate! 
Yeah, I ended up trying the 30-day trial for pro-R that Aaron recommended and it is much, much better. I doubt I'll be buying the full version, maybe I will go for Seventh Heaven as it is cheaper and I've heard the tail is very smooth..


----------



## stfciu

aaronventure said:


> If you go to the webpage and click on "MORE" next to each demo, you'll find a render of it in each space.
> 
> 
> I might not be the one you're looking to answer this question but personally I was always incredibly bothered by piss-poor programming of legato in other libraries. Whether or not the fact that it was recorded live is somehow better, even if it's only within 1 speed/context and poorly programmed, is down to your personal preference. For me, the only thing that matters is the end result.
> 
> 
> There's always tape on the master for each demo I did. There's very little noise/hiss in the samples. Not nearly the amount you get when you record an instrument in situ in a hall. Not to even mention how in that case noise stacks up when you're playing multiple samples at the same time. Convolution cannot apply noise/hiss, it only superimposes one sound on top of another. It's a bit of an uncanny valley if you turn your mix up and there's just no noise at all during soft parts. Plugins which are emulations of vintage gear often add some hiss to the final output. You can also look into RC-20 Retro Color and pick one out of many noise patterns they have, then shape it, modulate it etc. If you wanna have your piece sound like a dated 1950s recording, RC-20 will also let you do that in a couple of clicks.
> 
> I find it to be a good thing that Infinite has no audible hiss in the final output. It doesn't result in awkward-sounding moments when a noisy sample fades out and the noise level/floor is suddenly changed in the middle of a piece.



Thank you very much Aaron for your direct input. I too agree the end effect is the most important thing and I really like what I hear from Infinite series.

I am really impressed what you have done with the legato scripting and your explanation confirms that even if you have legato transitions recorded well you may waste it in the end product. So little products have this done right, even the newest one frequently including the 'big guys".

I am also impressed how you sculpt the sound of your libraries from update to update and you take into consideration all of the suggestions that were made here.

I do use RC-20 very heavily in my productions and I confirm you can do miracles with it. 
The tape I use mostly to make the upper frequency more gentle for ears. 
Thank you for the explanation regarding this subject as well. That makes sense.

Now I am just waiting for some hint if you consider any discount during BF to make my final decision


----------



## DeCaffinated

stfciu said:


> 2. Though there is no real legato my ears say the legato transitions though they are scripted "fool my brain" very cleverly. However there is always a thought at the back of my head "it is scripted stuff" suggesting this products may be somewhere condemned. Could you please tell me what are your experience about it and how much do you care about that fact? Does it bother you during using the library?



As time has gone on, I've found myself less and less impressed by "True Legato" in many libraries, including my favorites. Aside from massively inflating library sizes, the reality I've found is that even the best sounding ones leave a lot to be desired. Scripting is a huge weak spot for many developers who focus more on just dumping as many (admittedly excellent) recorded samples as they can.

Aaron's approach to legato does a much better job at sounding convincing. Agile things I'd never been able to perform with something like BWW now are a breeze. It requires a bit of a learning curve to figure out how to shape your velocities to get the right sound, but it's not intensive, and it's totally worth the extra work.



stfciu said:


> 3. As there were couple of updates both for brass and woodwinds I would like to ask how presently the ensembles sound stands. Is it actually possible to achieve similar characteristics to real ensemble recordings? I know the approach here is different than regulary found in other libraries (combining singular patches into ensembles rather than having ensemble recording) and I heard both cons and pros on that.



I think this is still one of the weaker areas of the libraries, but it's excellent. I've only used IW 2.0 and IB 1.5, so I can't speak to previous versions, but my current experience (working on a mockup of the very woodwind-heavy Mercury from the Planets) is that it's ultimately situational. Across the board, these are the best library for shorts I've ever seen. The variety and color on every instrument when they play shorts is amazing, and they sound breathtakingly real together, to my ears. I think the woodwinds are a bit stronger than the brass in this area, but it's subjective.

Agile and dovetailed stuff is also a dream in this, which makes sense given the thrust of the library.

The real weakspot is in more sustained notes. Individual instruments can sound great, but as you start to layer them, they can sound very plastic and synthetic. I've noticed this more with layering families (flutes with clarinets, for example) than I have in individual families. Bassons and Clarinets generally sound great in ensemble, but flutes and oboes can be hit or miss. I've not encountered anything insurmountable yet, but it definitely can require a lot of finessing, especially if you're working with big blocky chords and things like that. Shaping the attack and vibrato very carefully has helped.

That said I am very much an amateur, so in experienced hands these might be less of a problem.


----------



## stfciu

DeCaffinated said:


> As time has gone on, I've found myself less and less impressed by "True Legato" in many libraries, including my favorites. Aside from massively inflating library sizes, the reality I've found is that even the best sounding ones leave a lot to be desired. Scripting is a huge weak spot for many developers who focus more on just dumping as many (admittedly excellent) recorded samples as they can.
> 
> Aaron's approach to legato does a much better job at sounding convincing. Agile things I'd never been able to perform with something like BWW now are a breeze. It requires a bit of a learning curve to figure out how to shape your velocities to get the right sound, but it's not intensive, and it's totally worth the extra work.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is still one of the weaker areas of the libraries, but it's excellent. I've only used IW 2.0 and IB 1.5, so I can't speak to previous versions, but my current experience (working on a mockup of the very woodwind-heavy Mercury from the Planets) is that it's ultimately situational. Across the board, these are the best library for shorts I've ever seen. The variety and color on every instrument when they play shorts is amazing, and they sound breathtakingly real together, to my ears. I think the woodwinds are a bit stronger than the brass in this area, but it's subjective.
> 
> Agile and dovetailed stuff is also a dream in this, which makes sense given the thrust of the library.
> 
> The real weakspot is in more sustained notes. Individual instruments can sound great, but as you start to layer them, they can sound very plastic and synthetic. I've noticed this more with layering families (flutes with clarinets, for example) than I have in individual families. Bassons and Clarinets generally sound great in ensemble, but flutes and oboes can be hit or miss. I've not encountered anything insurmountable yet, but it definitely can require a lot of finessing, especially if you're working with big blocky chords and things like that. Shaping the attack and vibrato very carefully has helped.
> 
> That said I am very much an amateur, so in experienced hands these might be less of a problem.


Thanks a lot for your insight that brings me closer and closer to Infinite realm


----------



## Ivan Duch

I purchased the libraries last week so I have little experience myself. I'm working on a few pieces of music, mostly inspired by John Williams and Howard Shore but I have yet to finish them.

That said, the brass ensembles sounded great to my ears. I wasn't expecting them to sound that good to be honest. And slight detuning of individual instruments also improves the results in some situations.

With the winds I'm still doing experiments, but the initial results are similar to what @DeCaffinated mentioned. I haven't tested anything that combines realism + expression this well.


----------



## ChristianM

@Aaron your store adds VAT to me, in which country are you in? (I'm in France)


----------



## Mikro93

ChristianM said:


> @Aaron your store adds VAT to me, in which country are you in? (I'm in France)


If I may: the prices on the website do indicate (excl. VAT/GST) at the bottom  I'm in France, and I'm pretty sure he's in the US. But I'm also pretty sure he will answer himself, after all


----------



## aaronventure

Contact — Aaron Venture







www.aaronventure.com


----------



## PerryD

A chamber orchestra test. IB Contrabass tuba, French horns and trumpets with S&ES.


----------



## pierrevigneron

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Thanks mate!
> Yeah, I ended up trying the 30-day trial for pro-R that Aaron recommended and it is much, much better. I doubt I'll be buying the full version, maybe I will go for Seventh Heaven as it is cheaper and I've heard the tail is very smooth..


My favorite reverb for placing in space is Eareverb 2, maybe can you say me what do you think about it ?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Nice to see some more demos. Not that many user demos or walkthroughs of IB and IW (especially the latest versions) I've noticed. Compare that to how many demo tracks are being posted with AR1 for example or how many YT videos there are about CineBrass or EW.


----------



## I like music

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Nice to see some more demos. Not that many user demos or walkthroughs of IB and IW (especially the latest versions) I've noticed. Compare that to how many demo tracks are being posted with AR1 for example or how many YT videos there are about CineBrass or EW.



Probably because CineBrass and EW are very very very well established and have HUGE user bases. I still think that there are quite a few demos of the IB and IW libraries given that they are quite young. btw @ALittleNightMusic did you see the Swan Lake A/B comparison Aaron did? Really good mix of solo expressive use of woods and also bombastic brass ensembles.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I like music said:


> Probably because CineBrass and EW are very very very well established and have HUGE user bases. I still think that there are quite a few demos of the IB and IW libraries given that they are quite young. btw @ALittleNightMusic did you see the Swan Lake A/B comparison Aaron did? Really good mix of solo expressive use of woods and also bombastic brass ensembles.



I did! Was great - and a good example of how IB / IW tone can be adjusted to match a recording. It'd be interesting to see how it could be done with a more recent recording or something like a modern film score.


----------



## I like music

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I did! Was great - and a good example of how IB / IW tone can be adjusted to match a recording. It'd be interesting to see how it could be done with a more recent recording or something like a modern film score.



I'm mocking up The Enterprise by Jerry Goldsmith. I know it isn't 'modern' in terms of film scores over the last 10 years or so. If anything, closer to Swan Lake than modern film scores, but I do consider it very hollywood. Will try to post it by next week.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I like music said:


> I'm mocking up The Enterprise by Jerry Goldsmith. I know it isn't 'modern' in terms of film scores over the last 10 years or so. If anything, closer to Swan Lake than modern film scores, but I do consider it very hollywood. Will try to post it by next week.


Can't wait for that!


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Can't wait for that!



I might have mentioned before, a friend of mine mocked it up using EWHO + VSL woodwinds + SM trumpet. One of the best mockups I've ever ever heard. So I'm trying to reach his level with it. Very very hard to do. It is such a dynamic piece. Really really pushes samples to - and beyond - their limits!


----------



## pierrevigneron

What do you think of my infinite trumpets sound ensemble ?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Anyone else experiencing crashes editing midi track in reaper using ib?
In a project I’m working on I’m getting a crash 10/10 whenever editing the midi of infinite brass horns. I’m using mic mix 3 on bersa and I’m using 1024 buffer size.
I assume this is infinite but if there’s a way I can find out which plug-in is causing this for sure, that’s be great..

EDIT:
It has gotten to the point where I can't click the buttons on the UI of Infinite Brass without being greeted with this:

Then it crashes. I have absolutely no idea what to do.


----------



## TGV

pierrevigneron said:


> What do you think of my infinite trumpets sound ensemble ?


The tone in the sustain phase of the chords is a bit too clean, I think.


----------



## pierrevigneron

TGV said:


> The tone in the sustain phase of the chords is a bit too clean, I think.


In terms of pitch, vibrato, intensity...?


----------



## Ivan Duch

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Anyone else experiencing crashes editing midi track in reaper using ib?
> In a project I’m working on I’m getting a crash 10/10 whenever editing the midi of infinite brass horns. I’m using mic mix 3 on bersa and I’m using 1024 buffer size.
> I assume this is infinite but if there’s a way I can find out which plug-in is causing this for sure, that’s be great..
> 
> EDIT:
> It has gotten to the point where I can't click the buttons on the UI of Infinite Brass without being greeted with this:
> 
> Then it crashes. I have absolutely no idea what to do.



I haven't experienced any crashes while playing or editing infinite libraries and I'm normally working at 256.

That said, I have experienced crashes in very CPU intensive projects within Reaper while opening the midi editor (for some reason it increases the CPU load). How is your CPU usage? Is still high at 1024?


----------



## Tonda

A midi mockup with IW and IB. All parts are played live with a breath controller and post processed to improve timing and phrasing. I love these libraries!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Ivan Duch said:


> I haven't experienced any crashes while playing or editing infinite libraries and I'm normally working at 256.
> 
> That said, I have experienced crashes in very CPU intensive projects within Reaper while opening the midi editor (for some reason it increases the CPU load). How is your CPU usage? Is still high at 1024?


Yeah i noticed that.

It's hovering from 25-40 but when i switch window or load another window, it shoots up to about 60/70.

QUICK EDIT: I decided to try changing my Asio driver from my Zoom U-24 Interface driver to the ASIO4ALL driver and that allowed me to get through more work. I'm wondering if my interface is just not liking Infinite Brass...
Perhaps a new interface is something I should look into?


----------



## vicontrolu

Hey, a happy Infinite user here. One that doesnt have the time to record each part when doing divisi though. 

I was wondering if anyone here had KSP skills to write a script that could add randomization to incoming CC values, so that i could draw a CC ramp in Ch1 (horn1) and the other instruments (horn2,3,4..) on different channels assigned to the different chord notes would get a slightly different curve. I am assuming the script could only delay the CC data since it cant do anything before it actually happens 

Cheers


----------



## timbit2006

black friday 





vicontrolu said:


> Hey, a happy Infinite user here. One that doesnt have the time to record each part when doing divisi though.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone here had KSP skills to write a script that could add randomization to incoming CC values, so that i could draw a CC ramp in Ch1 (horn1) and the other instruments (horn2,3,4..) on different channels assigned to the different chord notes would get a slightly different curve. I am assuming the script could only delay the CC data since it cant do anything before it actually happens
> 
> Cheers


I haven't looked into it enough to give further advise but I believe someone made a solution for that using JSscript for SWAM instruments or at least there's for sure tools to assist in humanizing the automation


----------



## I like music

vicontrolu said:


> Hey, a happy Infinite user here. One that doesnt have the time to record each part when doing divisi though.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone here had KSP skills to write a script that could add randomization to incoming CC values, so that i could draw a CC ramp in Ch1 (horn1) and the other instruments (horn2,3,4..) on different channels assigned to the different chord notes would get a slightly different curve. I am assuming the script could only delay the CC data since it cant do anything before it actually happens
> 
> Cheers



I would love something like this!


----------



## stfciu

stfciu said:


> 1. There are a lot of demos with the new Mozarteum convo but I can't find much about the dry studio. Maybe I am missing something. Would like to check how close can I get to the BHCT and whether I could enhance it with the flexibility of Infinite Series.



Ok, sometimes my brain does not work the proper way. I looked at the website again and was wondering what the "more" button means (mainly cause my mommy always said not to push any buttons you don't know what they do ) Now I have my answer. Silly me.

As for my preferences the bersa hall sounds way better and more natural than mozarteum. The studio is really good base for fine sculpting and will be a great supplement for BHCT imo.

What bothered me lately when I was investigating IB was that mozarteum "space" at the higher frequencies and lack in the same time of the resonance at the bottom as you would expect from concert hall. I find it also not that cohesive as bersa. Maybe it is just the actual charasteristics of the hall, I don't know, I haven't been there...yet 

I don't say it is bad but you can hear that for example in the swam lake A/B video. While the tone is really really close to the original I would expect more of that low end sparks and that "space glue" 
This always was/is a problem with brass libraries to capture these resonances/cohesivness and few of them grabbed it (Cinesamples is the best example, I would buy it in terms of the sound but the lack of flexibility for that price :|)

But as I compared the recordings between mozarteum, bersa and studio despite the fact I am not a fan of the first one the bersa and studio examples have proven me how flexible the library is in terms of the tone and actually the bersa gave me the answer I was looking for. The moment I will buy it (hopefully soon) I will cross my fingers so that Aaron will be still considering to give us more spaces to play with these beauties even as a add-on or something


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Anyone else experiencing crashes editing midi track in reaper using ib?
> In a project I’m working on I’m getting a crash 10/10 whenever editing the midi of infinite brass horns. I’m using mic mix 3 on bersa and I’m using 1024 buffer size.
> I assume this is infinite but if there’s a way I can find out which plug-in is causing this for sure, that’s be great..
> 
> EDIT:
> It has gotten to the point where I can't click the buttons on the UI of Infinite Brass without being greeted with this:
> 
> Then it crashes. I have absolutely no idea what to do.



I never had a crash with Infinite libraries in Reaper, I had some crashes in the past but that was more due to the heavy projects involved.
Actually with the CPU I bought two or three months ago I noticed a huge step in terms of performances and usability. I'm able to use a buffer of 256 and I can use many items opened in midi editor at the same time without any issue. I didn't expect to have all this when I bought the 10940X, I'm impressed from how well it performs in every software.

You should look at Audio Media Buffering settings. There is one setting that disable the media buffering for tracks with open MIDI editors and another one on the same page that allows the anticipative FX processing on tracks with open MIDI editors. I enabled this last option and I didn't notice any preview latency in the editor.
Look at them and see if it changes anything.


----------



## Ivan Duch

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Yeah i noticed that.
> 
> It's hovering from 25-40 but when i switch window or load another window, it shoots up to about 60/70.
> 
> QUICK EDIT: I decided to try changing my Asio driver from my Zoom U-24 Interface driver to the ASIO4ALL driver and that allowed me to get through more work. I'm wondering if my interface is just not liking Infinite Brass...
> Perhaps a new interface is something I should look into?



The midi editor is a general thing, though. And I haven't noticed it with the projects I'm using Infinite Series on. Just stuff with lots of FXs and so on. 

Seems related to CPU overload to me. It could be that the U-24 drivers are not that good and overload the CPU more than necessary compared to ASIO4ALL. What CPU do you have? 

I'm using an Audient id4 myself and have an i7 8700 processor.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Ivan Duch said:


> The midi editor is a general thing, though. And I haven't noticed it with the projects I'm using Infinite Series on. Just stuff with lots of FXs and so on.
> 
> Seems related to CPU overload to me. It could be that the U-24 drivers are not that good and overload the CPU more than necessary compared to ASIO4ALL. What CPU do you have?
> 
> I'm using an Audient id4 myself and have an i7 8700 processor.


hmmmm. I'm using an 8700k which I got last year. I mean, FX-wise I have some EQ, Panagement 2 for panning, one Reverb bus and OTT on the master. That's about it. I would like to think an 8700k would handle it perfectly fine which is what makes this so frustrating.

Is the CPU usage I'm experiencing abnormal? from 30-60%?


----------



## shawnsingh

vicontrolu said:


> I am assuming the script could only delay the CC data since it cant do anything before it actually happens



If anyone wants to try scripting it, I wanted to propose that the "speed of CC change" could be one part of it that gets humanized. That seems like it could make it a more natural and rich humanization than just humanizing the delay of the CC.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Tonda said:


> A midi mockup with IW and IB. All parts are played live with a breath controller and post processed to improve timing and phrasing. I love these libraries!




Is that the default tone of the instruments or did you manipulate them?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I decided to cut my track short and hopefully figure out a fix for the problems I'm having for the future. I really wanted to try and make Infinite Brass work in a more modern/horror context so I made a fan-made 'Scream' cue.
All the brass except the little bit of brassy chaos at the start is Infinite.


----------



## Ivan Duch

NeonMediaKJT said:


> hmmmm. I'm using an 8700k which I got last year. I mean, FX-wise I have some EQ, Panagement 2 for panning, one Reverb bus and OTT on the master. That's about it. I would like to think an 8700k would handle it perfectly fine which is what makes this so frustrating.
> 
> Is the CPU usage I'm experiencing abnormal? from 30-60%?




Same CPU then. How many instruments are playing simulatenously? You might have to start freezing tracks. 

Is that last post a mockup of yours? Sounds awesome. I didn't get too crazy with the orchestrations yet, I might encounter the same problem as I keep adding more stuff.

What reverb are you using? I like it.


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I decided to cut my track short and hopefully figure out a fix for the problems I'm having for the future. I really wanted to try and make Infinite Brass work in a more modern/horror context so I made a fan-made 'Scream' cue.
> All the brass except the little bit of brassy chaos at the start is Infinite.




Amazing work! You're on fire.


----------



## fakemaxwell

Ivan Duch said:


> I haven't experienced any crashes while playing or editing infinite libraries and I'm normally working at 256.
> 
> That said, I have experienced crashes in very CPU intensive projects within Reaper while opening the midi editor (for some reason it increases the CPU load). How is your CPU usage? Is still high at 1024?



Go to preferences and search for "open MIDI editors," there are two settings that you can toggle to fix this. By default, anticipative FX and media buffering is turned off on tracks with open MIDI editors to allow for faster input. With difficult CPU tracks or multiple MIDI editors opened/visible that you aren't performing in turn toggle one or both of those settings and you'll have a better time. 

I don't think it's currently an action, have been meaning to set it as a feature request but keep forgetting.


----------



## stfciu

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I decided to cut my track short and hopefully figure out a fix for the problems I'm having for the future. I really wanted to try and make Infinite Brass work in a more modern/horror context so I made a fan-made 'Scream' cue.
> All the brass except the little bit of brassy chaos at the start is Infinite.



Well...amm...yyy...I am out of words. This is one of the best mockups I heard...ever, really. Great job man!

Can you tell me if you did some mixing over it? Additional reverb, eq etc. The brass sounds really good but the sound is different then what I hear in the demos. Maybe it is the result of using the library in full context. 
Also what was the starting point, mozarteum, bersa?


----------



## stfciu

stfciu said:


> Well...amm...yyy...I am out of words. This is one of the best mockups I heard...ever, really. Great job man!
> 
> Can you tell me if you did some mixing over it? Additional reverb, eq etc. The brass sounds really good but the sound is different then what I hear in the demos. Maybe it is the result of using the library in full context.
> Also what was the starting point, mozarteum, bersa?


Btw what strings did you use?


----------



## shawnsingh

pierrevigneron said:


> What do you think of my infinite trumpets sound ensemble ?



The tone seems great, how did you mix this? A few programming ideas though:

The sfz "bite" sound on attacks feels like it's overused on every note. I think the shorter note could use that bite, but the following longer note shouldn't, at least not an immediate attack like that. Also, I wonder if it may sound more natural with some more separation between notes, especially in places where you imagine the players are taking a breath after the longer note

The tone seems similar to the original soundtrack's trumpets, but I can't find where in the album trumpets play this specific motif?


----------



## Tonda

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Is that the default tone of the instruments or did you manipulate them?



It is the default tone (more or less), except for the trumpet which originally was written for 'cornet a piston', which sounds a bit warmer than trumpet. 

However I did change some parameters... I used the studio space, but without the ambient mic. All the instruments are on the conductors place, to set them in front. I panned the instruments within the DAW. I used an algorithmic reverb; LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven (Boston Hall preset), but only the late reflections, because the early reflections are coming from the library space. 

I mastered it with a compressor to get some glueing and a limiter (Fabfilter Pro-L). 

Thats it!


----------



## vicontrolu

shawnsingh said:


> If anyone wants to try scripting it, I wanted to propose that the "speed of CC change" could be one part of it that gets humanized. That seems like it could make it a more natural and rich humanization than just humanizing the delay of the CC.



I dont quite understand. Speed is the time it takes to get between 2 points (CC points in this case). How would vary speed between points that havent been input yet?

Just to be clear, i am talking about a realtime Kontakt multiscript


----------



## Mikro93

You can have some interpolation (smoothing) happening when a CC values changes from A to B. When the controler changes to B, the library could make it so that the parameter does not jump to B straight away, but rather have a smooth curve going from A to B in a given duration, starting when the user inputs B. If that makes sense  



vicontrolu said:


> I dont quite understand. Speed is the time it takes to get between 2 points (CC points in this case). How would vary speed between points that havent been input yet?
> 
> Just to be clear, i am talking about a realtime Kontakt multiscript


----------



## CT

Any Mahler fans among you users of this stuff?


----------



## vicontrolu

Mikro93 said:


> but rather have a smooth curve going from A to B in a given duration, starting when the user inputs B.



Oh i see. Sounds good although smoother curves means more CC points in the middle of 2 points which might be already close. I wonder how the CPU would feel about it.


----------



## Sean J

Mike T said:


> Any Mahler fans among you users of this stuff?



I certainly own more copies of the 8th than anyone else here. I can assure you of that.


----------



## Mikro93

vicontrolu said:


> Oh i see. Sounds good although smoother curves means more CC points in the middle of 2 points which might be already close. I wonder how the CPU would feel about it.


Well, Kontakt patches are actually aready full of interpolations to smoothen the transitions  Basically every parameter that is subject to change has a smoothing value. It just adds a few multiplications by a factor along the way, nothing complex compared to other audio processing tasks


----------



## shawnsingh

vicontrolu said:


> I dont quite understand. Speed is the time it takes to get between 2 points (CC points in this case). How would vary speed between points that havent been input yet?
> 
> Just to be clear, i am talking about a realtime Kontakt multiscript



I think it can still work in real time. The script can keep track of some small window of past CC values, and compute things like speed and even acceleration.

A crude analogy would be a damped mass-spring model. Imagine a spring attached between the original CC and the humanized CC. So as you move the original CC, the humanized CC gets dragged along with, but not precisely. It would lag+accelerate differently. And this can be implemented with an "update" function that gets called on every next MIDI event over time.

But mass-spring is just an analogy - I'm pretty sure we'd need a better model than mass-spring to humanize CC values - mass-spring can only simulate "lag+accelerate". But for humanization we'd probably also want "act-too-quickly + deccelerate", and maybe some other ideas can be added. But the paradigm would be the same - some small amount of state that characteirzes how the original CC behaves, along with an "update" function that decides how the humanized CC should behave.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Ivan Duch said:


> Same CPU then. How many instruments are playing simulatenously? You might have to start freezing tracks.
> 
> Is that last post a mockup of yours? Sounds awesome. I didn't get too crazy with the orchestrations yet, I might encounter the same problem as I keep adding more stuff.
> 
> What reverb are you using? I like it.



I had 6 horns, 3 trombones, 3 bass trombones, 3 contrabass trombones, tuba, 3 cimbassi and 3 trumpets. Not necessarily all playing at the same time.

Thanks for that! The reverb is Valhalla Room, but I'm not too keen on it with IB. I had to really EQ it to get rid of the fizzy tail. Sounded very digital without it.




stfciu said:


> Well...amm...yyy...I am out of words. This is one of the best mockups I heard...ever, really. Great job man!
> 
> Can you tell me if you did some mixing over it? Additional reverb, eq etc. The brass sounds really good but the sound is different then what I hear in the demos. Maybe it is the result of using the library in full context.
> Also what was the starting point, mozarteum, bersa?



Thank you, that means a lot! I did EQ on some. The reverb is all one instance of Valhalla Room with an EQ to get rid of the fizzy tail. I'll say this; the brass sounds very pushed back and live when played standalone, but as soon as it enters a busy mix, it begins to sound right in your face which is why I'm looking at getting a better reverb at some point. I wanted to use a Bersa, but found some instruments needed pushing back, so I ended up with a mixture of both Mozarteum and Bersa on some instruments, however, in the end I had to compromise for the sake of all the crashes I was experiencing and switch some of the instruments to Bersa hall (I assumed this would help ease the crashing). Basically, whatever seemed to sound better in the mix itself, I used it rather than using exclusively one room.



stfciu said:


> Btw what strings did you use?


The strings were Hollywood Strings and the free Con Motto test patch from Performance Samples. I usually use CSS, but CSS is way too dark and filled with vibrato for action music, imo. For FX, it was a mixture of the Cage Unleashed and CASE libs from 8dio as well as the free Project Sam stuff and EWQL SO.




fakemaxwell said:


> Go to preferences and search for "open MIDI editors," there are two settings that you can toggle to fix this. By default, anticipative FX and media buffering is turned off on tracks with open MIDI editors to allow for faster input. With difficult CPU tracks or multiple MIDI editors opened/visible that you aren't performing in turn toggle one or both of those settings and you'll have a better time.
> 
> I don't think it's currently an action, have been meaning to set it as a feature request but keep forgetting.



Thanks a bunch! I will definitely try this next time. I sure hope I can get this sorted in the end because I love how versatile this library is. I never would have tried doing so many trumpet staccatos with any other brass library.


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I decided to cut my track short and hopefully figure out a fix for the problems I'm having for the future. I really wanted to try and make Infinite Brass work in a more modern/horror context so I made a fan-made 'Scream' cue.
> All the brass except the little bit of brassy chaos at the start is Infinite.




Excellent work, I loved it.

Some questions if you don't mind:

1) The rip (barely audible) at 0:50 is done with IB?

2) What instruments did you used for the staccatos starting at 0:50 and 1:07 (all the instrument used, I think Brass and Strings), they sounds very convincing. Are they simple staccatos or did you use some figure here and there?

3) Did you used IW too here?



NeonMediaKJT said:


> Thank you, that means a lot! I did EQ on some. The reverb is all one instance of Valhalla Room with an EQ to get rid of the fizzy tail. I'll say this; the brass sounds very pushed back and live when played standalone, but as soon as it enters a busy mix, it begins to sound right in your face which is why I'm looking at getting a better reverb at some point. I wanted to use a Bersa, but found some instruments needed pushing back, so I ended up with a mixture of both Mozarteum and Bersa on some instruments, however, in the end I had to compromise for the sake of all the crashes I was experiencing and switch some of the instruments to Bersa hall (I assumed this would help ease the crashing). Basically, whatever seemed to sound better in the mix itself, I used it rather than using exclusively one room.




I'm writing a more modern piece too and I also noticed that I had to push back the brass a lot while by playing them alone sounded good to me in the template configuration phase.
I had level 3 mixed mics and studio because I'm using the 2CAudio solution for space positioning but I had to push them at level 4 with Bersa Hall.


----------



## lljfnord

Mike T said:


> Any Mahler fans among you users of this stuff?


Mahler's 3rd is one of the greatest pieces ever written.


----------



## VVEremita

I made some quick, random improvisations in an expressive contemporary style (Neue Musik) with bends and atonality. Surely not everyone's cup of tea, but even this brief first encounter speaks of the expressive nature of those instruments. I am really happy with them.


----------



## Mikro93

VVEremita said:


> I made some quick, random improvisations in an expressive contemporary style (Neue Musik) with bends and atonality. Surely not everyone's cup of tea, but even this brief first encounter speaks of the expressive nature of those instruments. I am really happy with them.


It's very clear to me that no other sample library can pull off these sounds. God job!


----------



## pierrevigneron

Here is the original, the Cinematic Studio Brass, Hollywood Brass and Infinite Brass version with screenshots of the effects for the last two (plus a virtual tape machine on IB)


----------



## pierrevigneron

the audios


----------



## Terry93D

I'm suddenly reminded of a demo I want to put together for the Infinite Brass. Give me a week and I'll be back with it.


----------



## pierrevigneron

And finally a parameterized Infinite version (+ 0.1, + 0.2 and +0.3 in the pitch, modification of the crescendo curves and very light vibrato)


----------



## aaronventure

pierrevigneron said:


> And finally a parameterized Infinite version (+ 0.1, + 0.2 and +0.3 in the pitch, modification of the crescendo curves and very light vibrato)


Nice. 

The dynamics should dip lower. The attacks will be more pronounced and you'll get more of a crescendo. Compare to the original. The first two fortepianos especially. 

Bring the overall volume up by a couple of dB, if that's what's throwing you off.


----------



## ZeeCount

Here's a snippet from a piece I wrote using Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwind. EDIT: I just realised I posted the wrong version of this snippet. The original was the writing one I made using Caspian and Angry Brass Pro. I've attached both to fix it.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Totally agree with you Aaron. Here is the new version. I also tweaked my EQ a bit, since the "center of gravity" of my dynamics has been lowered


----------



## pierrevigneron

ZeeCount said:


> Here's a snippet from a piece I wrote using Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwind.



Good ! Can you tell us your eq profil ? I like your settings even if i think it's too dark


----------



## CT

Anyway my Mahler question was a subtle suggestion that someone try to mock-up a bit of him....


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

pierrevigneron said:


> Totally agree with you Aaron. Here is the new version. I also tweaked my EQ a bit, since the "center of gravity" of my dynamics has been lowered



Pretty good! Though the tone of the original seems unmatched by all 3 libraries. Maybe it is the natural ambience?


----------



## stfciu

pierrevigneron said:


> And finally a parameterized Infinite version (+ 0.1, + 0.2 and +0.3 in the pitch, modification of the crescendo curves and very light vibrato)


Glad you posted this too. The first example was not the one I would choose among the others  Now it is much better. The first example for me was a bit too static in the sustains and sounded a little bit "synthy". The second one is better. However I wonder is there still room for tweaking the performance to achieve better "human" perception.

To my feeling HB suprisingly did not sound as I thought it should. For many of the members is the go to library for brass.

I presume you don't have Cinebrass or Century brass  Could you please post the midi file so maybe some of the members would be keen to render it through this libraries as well.


----------



## pierrevigneron

here they are


----------



## pierrevigneron

I will try tomorrow to make the Hollywood Brass sound better, but I admit that since I have Infinite Brass I think of them as a priority when it comes to brass instruments.


----------



## stfciu

pierrevigneron said:


> here they are


Thank you. If anyone have either CB or Century Brass could you please post your example? Pretty please


----------



## Mikro93

I'll start working on the CineBrass Core version


----------



## stfciu

Mikro93 said:


> I'll start working on the CineBrass Core version


Thank you @Mikro93 ! Much appreciated.


----------



## Mikro93

What are the instruments supposed to be, top to bottom? I don't have the info at hand's reach. Like, trumpet, trumpet, french horn, french horn ?


----------



## Mikro93

Okay, here's my humble contribution 

Attached here are CineBrass, Jaeger and the original one. I rendered them all in a normalized fashion, to be able to compare the three extracts. Two trumpet patches, two horn patches.

CineBrass uses the "Articulations" patches, which allows to overlay an accented note (short 1/8th) to a sustained note. Very useful in this situation. I had to add quite a lot of high frequencies with a high shelf, on top of the already brighter-ish "Bright JW" preset, and it is definitely still not as bright an fff as the original.

Jaeger does the accent thing too, in a way. I used keyswitches to alternate between Stacatissimo and longs. I believe the velocity adds an accent to the long notes, but I wasn't fully satisfied with the results, so I added another track with trumpets staccato notes. I just used the Modern Mix for all tracks.

I had to make a compromise between trying to replicate the dynamics of the original, and getting a believable, realistic sound. CineBrass is not easy to work with IMO, because the dynamic layers are very distinct from each other, and they tend to cut the reverb tails too, which is what happens when room samples are used (Infinite Brass would not do that! :D). Which is a shame, because the room is gorgeous. I much prefer working with Jaeger, although I did, sometimes, add a filter under the hood that would be controlled by CC1 to smoothen out the transitions between the layers, especially for horns and trombones (not in this case, though).

I don't think any of my versions really match the original tone of the actual players, with these oh-so-bright-and-loud fff. Maybe layering something like Strezov's fff trumpet would help. I did not try to match the EQ either.
I will also report that matching the dynamics of real, recorded instruments is a proper pain in the butt. I can often hear when I went wrong, which is most of the time, but it is very inconvenient to closely match the expression of a classically-trained professional player with 20 years of experience. That being said, I'm happy with Jaeger's Brass outside of any comparison context 

Hope that helps!


----------



## shawnsingh

I've had nothing but "bum, bum, ba-da-bum" in my head now for the past day...

EDIT: along with occasional fff operatic choir showing up singing the intro phrase, and it comes along with a dozen Van Gogh's screaming heads in my mind, too. Quite the torture


----------



## Mikro93

shawnsingh said:


> I've had nothing but "bum, bum, ba-da-bum" in my head now for the past day...


Ah yes, a well-known psychoacoustic phenomenon known as the John Williams effect. Bum, bum, ba-da-bum indeed, my friend.


----------



## PerryD

Mikro93 said:


> Ah yes, a well-known psychoacoustic phenomenon known as the John Williams effect. Bum, bum, ba-da-bum indeed, my friend.


 Sometimes associated with Gear Acquisition Syndrome and chronic Mockupitis.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Mikro93 said:


> Okay, here's my humble contribution
> 
> Attached here are CineBrass, Jaeger and the original one. I rendered them all in a normalized fashion, to be able to compare the three extracts. Two trumpet patches, two horn patches.
> 
> CineBrass uses the "Articulations" patches, which allows to overlay an accented note (short 1/8th) to a sustained note. Very useful in this situation. I had to add quite a lot of high frequencies with a high shelf, on top of the already brighter-ish "Bright JW" preset, and it is definitely still not as bright an fff as the original.
> 
> Jaeger does the accent thing too, in a way. I used keyswitches to alternate between Stacatissimo and longs. I believe the velocity adds an accent to the long notes, but I wasn't fully satisfied with the results, so I added another track with trumpets staccato notes. I just used the Modern Mix for all tracks.
> 
> I had to make a compromise between trying to replicate the dynamics of the original, and getting a believable, realistic sound. CineBrass is not easy to work with IMO, because the dynamic layers are very distinct from each other, and they tend to cut the reverb tails too, which is what happens when room samples are used (Infinite Brass would not do that! :D). Which is a shame, because the room is gorgeous. I much prefer working with Jaeger, although I did, sometimes, add a filter under the hood that would be controlled by CC1 to smoothen out the transitions between the layers, especially for horns and trombones (not in this case, though).
> 
> I don't think any of my versions really match the original tone of the actual players, with these oh-so-bright-and-loud fff. Maybe layering something like Strezov's fff trumpet would help. I did not try to match the EQ either.
> I will also report that matching the dynamics of real, recorded instruments is a proper pain in the butt. I can often hear when I went wrong, which is most of the time, but it is very inconvenient to closely match the expression of a classically-trained professional player with 20 years of experience. That being said, I'm happy with Jaeger's Brass outside of any comparison context
> 
> Hope that helps!



Nice job! Is this Cinebrass Pro / Core? Or Sonore?


----------



## ZeeCount

pierrevigneron said:


> Good ! Can you tell us your eq profil ? I like your settings even if i think it's too dark



I'll have to look at the project again but I'm pretty sure it was just light compression into Gulfoss on each section (horns, trumpets, trombones, low brass (tubas + euphoniums).


----------



## Mikro93

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Nice job! Is this Cinebrass Pro / Core? Or Sonore?


It is CineBrass Core, so section patches


----------



## pierrevigneron

Mikro93 said:


> Okay, here's my humble contribution
> 
> Attached here are CineBrass, Jaeger and the original one. I rendered them all in a normalized fashion, to be able to compare the three extracts. Two trumpet patches, two horn patches.
> 
> CineBrass uses the "Articulations" patches, which allows to overlay an accented note (short 1/8th) to a sustained note. Very useful in this situation. I had to add quite a lot of high frequencies with a high shelf, on top of the already brighter-ish "Bright JW" preset, and it is definitely still not as bright an fff as the original.
> 
> Jaeger does the accent thing too, in a way. I used keyswitches to alternate between Stacatissimo and longs. I believe the velocity adds an accent to the long notes, but I wasn't fully satisfied with the results, so I added another track with trumpets staccato notes. I just used the Modern Mix for all tracks.
> 
> I had to make a compromise between trying to replicate the dynamics of the original, and getting a believable, realistic sound. CineBrass is not easy to work with IMO, because the dynamic layers are very distinct from each other, and they tend to cut the reverb tails too, which is what happens when room samples are used (Infinite Brass would not do that! :D). Which is a shame, because the room is gorgeous. I much prefer working with Jaeger, although I did, sometimes, add a filter under the hood that would be controlled by CC1 to smoothen out the transitions between the layers, especially for horns and trombones (not in this case, though).
> 
> I don't think any of my versions really match the original tone of the actual players, with these oh-so-bright-and-loud fff. Maybe layering something like Strezov's fff trumpet would help. I did not try to match the EQ either.
> I will also report that matching the dynamics of real, recorded instruments is a proper pain in the butt. I can often hear when I went wrong, which is most of the time, but it is very inconvenient to closely match the expression of a classically-trained professional player with 20 years of experience. That being said, I'm happy with Jaeger's Brass outside of any comparison context
> 
> Hope that helps!


Wha! A magnificent tone for cinebrass. Did you modify the midi file a lot?


----------



## yiph2

Does anyone have demos of IW/IB for big band? Curious if it can do jazz...


----------



## Mikro93

pierrevigneron said:


> Wha! A magnificent tone for cinebrass. Did you modify the midi file a lot?



Thank you  
Yes, I did, quite a lot  The dynamics react in quite a different way, which is honestly to be expected. CineBrass also uses the sustain pedal to switch from shorts to longs/legato.



yiph2 said:


> Does anyone have demos of IW/IB for big band? Curious if it can do jazz...


Yeah, I'd like to know too!


----------



## I like music

Just a regular reminder to all of how wholesome and helpful this thread is. Learning a lot, here.


----------



## gedlig

PerryD said:


> Sometimes associated with Gear Acquisition Syndrome and chronic Mockupitis.


In more severe cases Brokehoboitis is also reported.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Mikro93 said:


> Thank you
> Yes, I did, quite a lot  The dynamics react in quite a different way, which is honestly to be expected. CineBrass also uses the sustain pedal to switch from shorts to longs/legato.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'd like to know too!


Can you give me your midi file, for my curiosity


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## pierrevigneron

Here is what to understand Cinebrass, Hollywood brass, Cinematic studio Brass and Infinite brass in this passage using 2 trumpets and 2 horns. Take into account that Mikro93's programming is better than mine on Cinebrass (we hear a loss of dynamic after the first two strokes in order to leave a nice crescendo behind where it is more "flat" at home)


----------



## Mikro93

pierrevigneron said:


> Can you give me your midi file, for my curiosity


There you go!
I'm using Ableton Live, which is not able to export type 1 MIDI files (multi-track), so here are the individual tracks for CB Core.


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## pierrevigneron

And one last and promised after I stop polluting this post aha but because it's the best I can do with IB I think I'm pretty happy with my eq


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## vicontrolu

Cinebrass and IB clearly the winners. Cinebrass has a thicker tone which is very likeable, but after listening to the original it looks like IB is closer to the tone. 

I am convinced that if anything can be improved now in IB/IW is the tone part that comes with the room, as several people have already mentioned. Personally, the infinite series has gotten into a point where i cant care about that 5% tone improvement anymore. The benefits overweight the disadvantages for me


----------



## vicontrolu

Btw its curious that we mention quite a lot about keeping cc1 low on the trumpets, but if you listen to the original its raspy and bright as hell. 

I think the Infinite mockup should have higher CC1 and probably higher velocities too.


----------



## Beans

What other libraries should even be considered for that specific trumpet tone and strength? Whom from VI-C can we recruit for this particular challenge?


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## Jonathan Moray

Not exactly right, but I'm a bit strapped for time at the moment, so it will have to do.


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## Mikro93

vicontrolu said:


> Cinebrass and IB clearly the winners. Cinebrass has a thicker tone which is very likeable, but after listening to the original it looks like IB is closer to the tone.



Interesting! I prefer the sound of Jaeger over CineBrass for this passage, but I might be biased because I programmed around CB's caveats to the best of my abilities. Jaeger was more straightforward. That being said, it feels to me that, even though I don't own IB, it will shine in so many contexts when programmed correctly. I'm extremely curious of its versatility!



vicontrolu said:


> Btw its curious that we mention quite a lot about keeping cc1 low on the trumpets, but if you listen to the original its raspy and bright as hell.



I do agree with that. I would have experimented with a tiny tiny amount of flutter or growl, to add an extra bite to the fff. I would have tried to reduce the dynamic range too, just to see what happens. The extra raspy tone of the original is particularly strong because of the dips that immediately follow.



Beans said:


> What other libraries should even be considered for that specific trumpet tone and strength? Whom from VI-C can we recruit for this particular challenge?


Maybe @doctoremmet could offer a Century Brass version? Given that he openly enjoys Century Brass and IB


----------



## Mikro93

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not exactly right, but I'm a bit strapped for time at the moment, so it will have to do.


Pretty cool! Which library did you use?


----------



## doctoremmet

Mikro93 said:


> Maybe @doctoremmet could offer a Century Brass version? Given that he openly enjoys Century Brass and IB


Haha. I’m not really into the mocking up business  but I do pretty much adore those two libraries, correct.

EDIT: and yes, the CB trumpets are great (as are the flugelhorns btw). I rank them among the best ones out there. So I’m lazy... what piece are we talking about and is there a MIDI file readily available? Not making any promises....


----------



## pierrevigneron

vicontrolu said:


> Cinebrass and IB clearly the winners. Cinebrass has a thicker tone which is very likeable, but after listening to the original it looks like IB is closer to the tone.
> 
> I am convinced that if anything can be improved now in IB/IW is the tone part that comes with the room, as several people have already mentioned. Personally, the infinite series has gotten into a point where i cant care about that 5% tone improvement anymore. The benefits overweight the disadvantages for me


in fact, overall I like to remove a lot of high mids that I find a little garish on the Infinite series (for woods as for brass) but when we know and we created our eq presets, everything is ok for me.


----------



## doctoremmet

doctoremmet said:


> Haha. I’m not really into the mocking up business  but I do pretty much adore those two libraries, correct.
> 
> EDIT: and yes, the CB trumpets are great (as are the flugelhorns btw). I rank them among the best ones out there. So I’m lazy... what piece are we talking about and is there a MIDI file readily available? Not making any promises....


Ah found it. Honestly, I prefer @Mikro93 ‘s original Cinebrass clip - by a landslide. I’m guessing this is EQ’ing and reverb settings, but the original samples’ tone is also very convincing. Of the other versions I prefer IB and Cinebrass as well, the latter being the winner there for me. My gut tells me Century Brass trumpet can pull this off. I may get back to you on this one, but it will take a couple of days.


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## pierrevigneron

I think it's much better now, even if I did too much and now my intensity drops too much just after the second notes but hey, we have to find a happy medium. The interesting thing about Infinite Brass is that a little change has a real impact on your sound.


----------



## doctoremmet

pierrevigneron said:


> I think it's much better now, even if I did too much and now my intensity drops too much just after the second notes but hey, we have to find a happy medium. The interesting thing about Infinite Brass is that a little change has a real impact on your sound.


It does sound very good to my ears.


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## vicontrolu

Century is not going to make those crescendos convingly without phasing. You can use your pre recorded swells and adjust the speed on those to match the ones on the recording, perhaps...but i hope you guys enjoy doing that more than me.

Tone will be nice tho.


----------



## Beans

pierrevigneron said:


> I think it's much better now, even if I did too much and now my intensity drops too much just after the second notes but hey, we have to find a happy medium. The interesting thing about Infinite Brass is that a little change has a real impact on your sound.



I think at this point, some focus on EQ and finding the right room+reverb is going to make the most difference. Your CCs seem to be reaching a really good place.


----------



## doctoremmet

vicontrolu said:


> Century is not going to make those crescendos convingly without phasing. You can use your pre recorded swells and adjust the speed on those to match the ones on the recording, perhaps...but i hope you guys enjoy doing that more than me.
> 
> Tone will be nice tho.


Out or curiosity, why do you think will Century Brass suffer more from phasing than let’s say Cinebrass? I have never really noticed a particularly excessive amount of phasing myself. If I can find the energy and try this midi file on them, I will see if I can run the Chris Hein trumpets as well. Those samples have all been phase aligned. I guess that’s the technical spec that would make the difference? So for instance JXL would also suffer?


----------



## pierrevigneron

doctoremmet said:


> Out or curiosity, why do you think will Century Brass suffer more from phasing than let’s say Cinebrass? I have never really noticed a particularly excessive amount of phasing myself. If I can find the energy and try this midi file on them, I will see if I can run the Chris Hein trumpets as well. Those samples have all been phase aligned. I guess that’s the technical spec that would make the difference? So for instance JXL would also suffer?


Oh yes, the same with Chris hein brass, i'm curious...


----------



## stfciu

doctoremmet said:


> Ah found it. Honestly, I prefer @Mikro93 ‘s original Cinebrass clip - by a landslide. I’m guessing this is EQ’ing and reverb settings, but the original samples’ tone is also very convincing. Of the other versions I prefer IB and Cinebrass as well, the latter being the winner there for me. My gut tells me Century Brass trumpet can pull this off. I may get back to you on this one, but it will take a couple of days.


Yes please. I know you are a fan of both of it. Do you use it complementary or separately? If the latter when you reach for IB or Century Brass?


----------



## vicontrolu

doctoremmet said:


> Out or curiosity, why do you think will Century Brass suffer more from phasing than let’s say Cinebrass?



I am not saying it will suffer more from phasing than cinebrass. I am just saying that it suffers from phasing, like Cinebrass.

I used Century for a while. The tone is supernice but it was a pain to use. I havent heard the v2 upgrade though, perhaps they improved the crossfades.


----------



## doctoremmet

vicontrolu said:


> I am not saying it will suffer more from phasing than cinebrass. I am just saying that it suffers from phasing, like Cinebrass.
> 
> I used Century for a while. The tone is supernice but it was a pain to use. I havent heard the v2 upgrade though, perhaps they improved the crossfades.


Gotcha. It was a genuine question. I’m a pretty naive piano playing arranger, so don’t get too technical with me. I pretty much approach everything pretty musically and don’t have templates, expression maps and always start a track with a blank canvas.


----------



## doctoremmet

stfciu said:


> Yes please. I know you are a fan of both of it. Do you use it complementary or separately? If the latter when you reach for IB or Century Brass?


Simply put:
- when I need one very expressive good sounding brass instrument: IB
- when I want to have fun playing: only Aaron Venture stuff
- when I want great sounding ensembles that speak to me emotionally and are fairly easy to play: 8dio
- when I want to geek out: Chris Hein (somehow I usually also then switch from Live to Cubase and go all out on automation lanes and note-heads, lol)
- when I want gorgeous sounds that are to my ears still a notch above all other developers’ tone quality (woodwinds and solo strings): XSample


----------



## Montisquirrel

Hi everyone,

I own the Woodwinds and want to get the Brass as well in the future.
I am also looking at Performance Samples Caspian, which is on sale right now. Anyone here has both, IB and Caspian and is still using Caspian? Both are very playable and I know that IB goes much deeper but is also much more expensive. Or sould I wait and save up for IB ?


----------



## ZeeCount

ZeeCount said:


> Here's a snippet from a piece I wrote using Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwind.



Well, this is embarrassing, but I just realised that I posted the sketch version of this piece using performance samples, not the finished version that had Infinite Brass and Woodwind. I've updated that post.


----------



## Sean J

I've been PM'd a few times about different kinds of examples of Infinite, so I thought I'd post the latest one here. I don't mind the PM's, it's nice to meet people directly. I just figure others may be looking for similar info.

Here's the latest, regarding more lyrical playback:



The trumpet attack seemed a little less consistently soft than I'd like at lower velocities. It gets soft... it just seems to be less consistent (as heard at the start of the lines here). I messed with the attack knobs. Not entirely sure if it's me or Infinite. Still, I was happy with how it sounded most of the time here. It may not the best example of an exposed lyrical line... but I figured it might speak to it.

It's also worth noting that with Infinite, I almost never mess with volume or dynamic range. With Spitfire, I find I need to constantly. But with this example, I did do a little bit of tweaking there (very minimal), to have more blend/balancing control over each instrument while playing at softer dynamics.


----------



## Sean J

Also, I didn't touch EQ or process the sounds. I changed mics/placement a little, but that's it.


----------



## duringtheafter

Here's my first foray (with time spent refining the cc's) into IW/IB - the first minute of "Can You Read My Mind" (the Superman love theme) that features some soft horns and a lovely oboe line that then gets doubled by flute et al. (The last few measures are missing the string arpeggios as I forgot to put them in.)

A bit of EQ to smooth out all the Infinite instruments, and then across all instruments I added Altiverb Teldex (tails only, at 30% wet) and a tiny bit of tape noise. 

Played a lot of it in, then fiddled with cc1, velocities and vibrato rate/depths where needed. Also did some copy-paste-tweak to compare results. As others have reported, small tweaks make big sonic differences, which is kind of, well, awesome. This library has finally given me the ability to think more about the sound of sections in my mockups (whereas with many other libraries, the best I could do was layer on the instruments and then try to stop certain lines or notes from pulling too much focus).

Comments / suggestions welcome. (Cruel to be kind is okay. )


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Montisquirrel said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I own the Woodwinds and want to get the Brass as well in the future.
> I am also looking at Performance Samples Caspian, which is on sale right now. Anyone here has both, IB and Caspian and is still using Caspian? Both are very playable and I know that IB goes much deeper but is also much more expensive. Or sould I wait and save up for IB ?


I will still use Caspian as it is just a really good library regardless. Good Trombones and Trumpets. Perfect for layering.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DANIELE said:


> Excellent work, I loved it.
> 
> Some questions if you don't mind:
> 
> 1) The rip (barely audible) at 0:50 is done with IB?
> 
> 2) What instruments did you used for the staccatos starting at 0:50 and 1:07 (all the instrument used, I think Brass and Strings), they sounds very convincing. Are they simple staccatos or did you use some figure here and there?
> 
> 3) Did you used IW too here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm writing a more modern piece too and I also noticed that I had to push back the brass a lot while by playing them alone sounded good to me in the template configuration phase.
> I had level 3 mixed mics and studio because I'm using the 2CAudio solution for space positioning but I had to push them at level 4 with Bersa Hall.




Sorry for this late reply!
The rip was Not Infinite. I think it was CSB. I should also mention that at the end when the trumpets kick in, that is Infinite doubled with Sample Modeling.

For staccatos that is a combion of Fluid shorts, CSS and Holywood Strings for strings and then Infinite Brass for the brass.

I don't have Infinite Woodwinds yet. If I manage to get the issues I'm having with the brass sorted, I'll definitely buy the woodwinds at some point!


----------



## I like music

duringtheafter said:


> Here's my first foray (with time spent refining the cc's) into IW/IB - the first minute of "Can You Read My Mind" (the Superman love theme) that features some soft horns and a lovely oboe line that then gets doubled by flute et al. (The last few measures are missing the string arpeggios as I forgot to put them in.)
> 
> A bit of EQ to smooth out all the Infinite instruments, and then across all instruments I added Altiverb Teldex (tails only, at 30% wet) and a tiny bit of tape noise.
> 
> Played a lot of it in, then fiddled with cc1, velocities and vibrato rate/depths where needed. Also did some copy-paste-tweak to compare results. As others have reported, small tweaks make big sonic differences, which is kind of, well, awesome. This library has finally given me the ability to think more about the sound of sections in my mockups (whereas with many other libraries, the best I could do was layer on the instruments and then try to stop certain lines or notes from pulling too much focus).
> 
> Comments / suggestions welcome. (Cruel to be kind is okay. )



Wonderful love theme by JW, and a really nice mockup here!


----------



## prodigalson

Just finished a rough draft of a mockup of 'Anakin's Theme' from Phantom Menace to see how Infinite Woodwinds deals with the chorale at the top.

All Woodwinds and Brass are Infinite. I think they blend in this orchestral context quite well!

Check it out!


----------



## stfciu

duringtheafter said:


> Here's my first foray (with time spent refining the cc's) into IW/IB - the first minute of "Can You Read My Mind" (the Superman love theme) that features some soft horns and a lovely oboe line that then gets doubled by flute et al. (The last few measures are missing the string arpeggios as I forgot to put them in.)
> 
> A bit of EQ to smooth out all the Infinite instruments, and then across all instruments I added Altiverb Teldex (tails only, at 30% wet) and a tiny bit of tape noise.
> 
> Played a lot of it in, then fiddled with cc1, velocities and vibrato rate/depths where needed. Also did some copy-paste-tweak to compare results. As others have reported, small tweaks make big sonic differences, which is kind of, well, awesome. This library has finally given me the ability to think more about the sound of sections in my mockups (whereas with many other libraries, the best I could do was layer on the instruments and then try to stop certain lines or notes from pulling too much focus).
> 
> Comments / suggestions welcome. (Cruel to be kind is okay. )


So let me be a little cruel...I hate your mock up is better than I ever attempted


----------



## stfciu

@Cory Pelizzari just uploaded his new video bout IW, weheee


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mikro93 said:


> Pretty cool! Which library did you use?



Sample Modeling.

But, honestly, I think I could make Infinite Brass sound at least as good or better. For those who are thinking about getting SM, I would advise you to think twice. Really good library, hard to mix, and some of the functions are a bit different between Trumpets, Horns, and Trombones.

Anyway, I spent a little more time and refined the mix slightly.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Jonathan Moray said:


> Sample Modeling.
> 
> But, honestly, I think I could make Infinite Brass sound at least as good or better. For those who are thinking about getting SM, I would advise you to think twice. Really good library, hard to mix, and some of the functions are a bit different between Trumpets, Horns, and Trombones.
> 
> Anyway, I spent a little more time and refined the mix slightly.


In my opinion, a very nice sound of proximity, and detailed. But I will be curious to hear what it gives when mixed to simulate an orchestral positioning ...


----------



## Beans

prodigalson said:


> Just finished a rough draft of a mockup of 'Anakin's Theme' from Phantom Menace to see how Infinite Woodwinds deals with the chorale at the top.
> 
> All Woodwinds and Brass are Infinite. I think they blend in this orchestral context quite well!
> 
> Check it out!




They blend in pretty well, indeed! Obvious questions: what are the strings, and what were your major changes (EQ, reverb, etc.) to make them play nice together? Or, did they sit well without much fuss?


----------



## Mikro93

stfciu said:


> @Cory Pelizzari just uploaded his new video bout IW, weheee



Sounds really gooooooood!


----------



## HannesH

Did you see? IB and IW are ~15% off now.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

stfciu said:


> @Cory Pelizzari just uploaded his new video bout IW, weheee




I feel he played a lot of non-realistic / non-idiomatic lines though, no? Maybe that’s one of the traps you can fall into with IW / IB because they are so flexible from a playability standpoint while with other libraries you need to stick to piecing together the recorded articulations.


----------



## Mikro93

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I feel he played a lot of non-realistic / non-idiomatic lines though, no? Maybe that’s one of the traps you can fall into with IW / IB because they are so flexible from a playability standpoint while with other libraries you need to stick to piecing together the recorded articulations.


Do you have specific timecodes for that? Maybe I wasn't paying attention. But it's definitely going to be one of those libraries where the programming is more important for that reason


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Mikro93 said:


> Do you have specific timecodes for that? Maybe I wasn't paying attention. But it's definitely going to be one of those libraries where the programming is more important for that reason



It sounded like that for most of the review IMO.


----------



## Mikro93

I feel like it's the case for any review when the player just uses the keyboard without programming, but IW is much beter than the others at handling that. My opinion  Given that I'm not a woodwinds player!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

pierrevigneron said:


> In my opinion, a very nice sound of proximity, and detailed. But I will be curious to hear what it gives when mixed to simulate an orchestral positioning ...



Not sure I follow. Could you elaborate? Do you mean that you don't like the seating position? It is panned like a lot of orchestras; trumpets slightly left, horns slightly right. The only thing I can say is that one of the versions is messed up (seating is reversed).

I used a larger room making the positioning for something as far away as brass get lost in the room and early reflections, so it might be harder to pinpoint. There's also not much direct signal left that I could have panned since they are so far away.

But since SM and AV are both dry you can pan them however you like, which is one of the many charms of these types of libraries. So, you could very well try different seatings if you wanted to.


----------



## prodigalson

Beans said:


> They blend in pretty well, indeed! Obvious questions: what are the strings, and what were your major changes (EQ, reverb, etc.) to make them play nice together? Or, did they sit well without much fuss?



The strings are Century Strings with a little Soaring Strings on the outer voices (Violins 1 and Cellos only) for a little added weight and size. I generally dont use Century because its a little harsh and boxy for me but for this amount of detailed divisi and "JW" expression, it was the only thing that would cut it and I was pretty pleased with it. The legatos have a lot of life

I EQd Century a bit to take a little harshness and boxiness off them and match them to Soaring Strings. Everything is going to an instance of Altiverb Mechanics Hall and there is a little UAD Lex 480L.

Harp and Timp is BBCSO and Cymbals are Abbey Road

Oh and I EQd the master bus to try to match an LSO reference recording


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

So a 25% off sale on the site now through end of November. Time to buy the bundle?


----------



## Bluemount Score




----------



## Bluemount Score

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So a 25% off sale on the site now through end of November. Time to buy the bundle?


Yes, now I may fall for it too!


----------



## daan1412

Very cool. I'm like 90% sure I'm getting the bundle... I just wish NI hurried up with Kontakt 6 sale because I have to get that too!


----------



## Beans

prodigalson said:


> I generally dont use Century because its a little harsh and boxy for me but for this amount of detailed divisi and "JW" expression, it was the only thing that would cut it and I was pretty pleased with it.



Thanks for all the explanation here. I've avoided Century Strings due to that same description of their sound, but they worked really well here and you did a great job with them. Maybe I'll give the new ones a good look. 

My old job never needed "realistic" strings, so I'm only just now picking up how to work with them in such a context. This was helpful.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

For owners, one thing I'm wondering is though playability seems very advanced, how is the tweakability after recording the line in? Is it easy to adjust everything to get it sounding like you want? I've noticed with other libraries' performance patches that they obscure too much so when it comes to refining the MIDI, it is hard to understand what is going on under the hood.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> For owners, one thing I'm wondering is though playability seems very advanced, how is the tweakability after recording the line in? Is it easy to adjust everything to get it sounding like you want? I've noticed with other libraries' performance patches that they obscure too much so when it comes to refining the MIDI, it is hard to understand what is going on under the hood.



Yes, really easy compared to traditional libraries. You can tweak to your heart's content. Want it to just slightly less "bitey" at the top? Lower the CC and it reflects in the playback without phasing or any other oddness. A legato transition sounds too harsh? Lower the velocity or dip the CC at the transition. Want the line to fade out faster or slower, crescendo or decresendo? just draw the CC the way you want it and it will all sound "correct" since it won't mess with the reverb like wet libraries.


----------



## shawnsingh

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes, really easy compared to traditional libraries. You can tweak to your heart's content. Want it to just slightly less "bitey" at the top? Lower the CC and it reflects in the playback without phasing or any other oddness. A legato transition sounds too harsh? Lower the velocity or dip the CC at the transition. Want the line to fade out faster or slower, crescendo or decresendo? just draw the CC the way you want it and it will all sound "correct" since it won't mess with the reverb like wet libraries.



Different perspective over here. 

It does feel like a breeze and is quite pleasant to tweak MIDI compared to other libraries. It's more like "stay away from blatantly unrealistic extremes, and otherwise focus on sculpting the sound the way you want". Other libraries are more like "find the right way to coax the library to sound tolerably realistic and avoid phasing" which is not as pleasant.

But, if I were to estimate the objective time spent on post-MIDI editing, I think it's more than other libraries. Three reasons, I think: (a) because that time spent tweaking the MIDI results in meaningfully better expressive performances than some other sample-based libraries, so it feels worthwhile to spend that extra time (b) because Infinite has individual instruments per track, at least I want to edit velocities/durations/CC uniquely for each instrument, but other libraries may have ensemble patches for unison playing. And (c) because Infinite doesn't have "articulations" - other libraries, articulations at least did have the advantage of some performance details not requiring more CC programming. But with Infinite tweaking articulations ends up being MIDI editing.

I was thinking of saving up to buy a Wacom tablet to speed up editing workflow. With a tablet like that, seems like it would be really easy to use a pen to edit automation. Compared to the 20 tries it takes to edit each CC curve with the mouse. But they're pricey, ouch!


----------



## Bluemount Score

Any idea on how long the current sale is gonna last? I couldn't find anything


----------



## Jonathan Moray

shawnsingh said:


> Different perspective over here.
> 
> It does feel like a breeze and is quite pleasant to tweak MIDI compared to other libraries. It's more like "stay away from blatantly unrealistic extremes, and otherwise focus on sculpting the sound the way you want". Other libraries are more like "find the right way to coax the library to sound tolerably realistic and avoid phasing" which is not as pleasant.
> 
> But, if I were to estimate the objective time spent on post-MIDI editing, I think it's more than other libraries. Three reasons, I think: (a) because that time spent tweaking the MIDI results in meaningfully better expressive performances than some other sample-based libraries, so it feels worthwhile to spend that extra time (b) because Infinite has individual instruments per track, at least I want to edit velocities/durations/CC uniquely for each instrument, but other libraries may have ensemble patches for unison playing. And (c) because Infinite doesn't have "articulations" - other libraries, articulations at least did have the advantage of some performance details not requiring more CC programming. But with Infinite tweaking articulations ends up being MIDI editing.
> 
> I was thinking of saving up to buy a Wacom tablet to speed up editing workflow. But they're pricey - ouch!. With a tablet like that, seems like it would be really easy to use a pen to edit automation. Compared to the 20 tries it takes to edit each CC curve with the mouse. But they're pricey, ouch!



Oh, yes, I absolutely agree. The first draft of my post actually had a little paragraph about it being both a blessing and a curse. I feel like it's great that you can edit and perfect the performance, but it's also another thing to fuss over. With more traditional libraries I'm more inclined to accept that "Ok, this is the best it's going to get and I might as well move on. This library wasn't meant for this tempo or this type of phrasing, and I've done all I can without going crazy". Maybe that's just me though.

Although, libraries like these I've found are more fun to write for since there's actually a bigger chance that they can play what I want, while traditional libraries make me want to pull my hair out when they can't play the phrase I have in mind.

I would recommend looking on Amazon for _HUION H640P_, great little tablet for a great price.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Different perspective over here.
> 
> It does feel like a breeze and is quite pleasant to tweak MIDI compared to other libraries. It's more like "stay away from blatantly unrealistic extremes, and otherwise focus on sculpting the sound the way you want". Other libraries are more like "find the right way to coax the library to sound tolerably realistic and avoid phasing" which is not as pleasant.
> 
> But, if I were to estimate the objective time spent on post-MIDI editing, I think it's more than other libraries. Three reasons, I think: (a) because that time spent tweaking the MIDI results in meaningfully better expressive performances than some other sample-based libraries, so it feels worthwhile to spend that extra time (b) because Infinite has individual instruments per track, at least I want to edit velocities/durations/CC uniquely for each instrument, but other libraries may have ensemble patches for unison playing. And (c) because Infinite doesn't have "articulations" - other libraries, articulations at least did have the advantage of some performance details not requiring more CC programming. But with Infinite tweaking articulations ends up being MIDI editing.
> 
> I was thinking of saving up to buy a Wacom tablet to speed up editing workflow. With a tablet like that, seems like it would be really easy to use a pen to edit automation. Compared to the 20 tries it takes to edit each CC curve with the mouse. But they're pricey, ouch!


Exactly my view. 

BTW try a Huion. Much much cheaper than a wacom. I have one but haven't yet tried it. Will do it in the next few weeks and see if it works better than a mouse.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Exactly my view.
> 
> BTW try a Huion. Much much cheaper than a wacom. I have one but haven't yet tried it. Will do it in the next few weeks and see if it works better than a mouse.



I use a pen to edit the cc curves from a long time now and I must say it is a very good workflow improvement, you can find very good and very cheap tablet out there to do the job.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Wish there were more demos available of IB 1.4 and IW 2.0. Even the Member's Composition section seems pretty light on these libraries.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I use a pen to edit the cc curves from a long time now and I must say it is a very good workflow improvement, you can find very good and very cheap tablet out there to do the job.


Agreed! I just need a bigger desk now to house this extra screen. Will the purchasing ever stop?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I'm assuming the sale discount doesn't stack on top of the crossgrade discount?


----------



## unclecheeks

shawnsingh said:


> Different perspective over here.
> 
> It does feel like a breeze and is quite pleasant to tweak MIDI compared to other libraries. It's more like "stay away from blatantly unrealistic extremes, and otherwise focus on sculpting the sound the way you want". Other libraries are more like "find the right way to coax the library to sound tolerably realistic and avoid phasing" which is not as pleasant.
> 
> But, if I were to estimate the objective time spent on post-MIDI editing, I think it's more than other libraries. Three reasons, I think: (a) because that time spent tweaking the MIDI results in meaningfully better expressive performances than some other sample-based libraries, so it feels worthwhile to spend that extra time (b) because Infinite has individual instruments per track, at least I want to edit velocities/durations/CC uniquely for each instrument, but other libraries may have ensemble patches for unison playing. And (c) because Infinite doesn't have "articulations" - other libraries, articulations at least did have the advantage of some performance details not requiring more CC programming. But with Infinite tweaking articulations ends up being MIDI editing.
> 
> I was thinking of saving up to buy a Wacom tablet to speed up editing workflow. With a tablet like that, seems like it would be really easy to use a pen to edit automation. Compared to the 20 tries it takes to edit each CC curve with the mouse. But they're pricey, ouch!



I use a Wacom Cintiq monitor for midi editing and it’s amazingly fast. A regular Wacom tablet is also faster than a mouse (and less stressful on the hand), but being able to do it right on the monitor is even better.

Knockoff Cintiqs can also be had for cheap on amazon.


----------



## I like music

unclecheeks said:


> I use a Wacom Cintiq monitor for midi editing and it’s amazingly fast. A regular Wacom tablet is also faster than a mouse (and less stressful on the hand), but being able to do it right on the monitor is even better.
> 
> Knockoff Cintiqs can also be had for cheap on amazon.


One comes to a VI forum expecting to leave perhaps wanting to buy a library. One leaves having purchased a pen tablet 😂


----------



## Montisquirrel

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I'm assuming the sale discount doesn't stack on top of the crossgrade discount?



Would like to know that, too. 
Also, on that Crossgrade page I can only select "Crossgrade to woods", there is no Brass option.


----------



## Sean J

daan1412 said:


> Very cool. I'm like 90% sure I'm getting the bundle... I just wish NI hurried up with Kontakt 6 sale because I have to get that too!



FYI... Kontakt 6 has a 100x better reverb than K5, if you want a dark splashy Lyndhurst quality.







With the EQ and those reverb settings (time I changed between 1.4 and 2.4k), you really add some hall to the sound. I'm not usually a fan of layering verbs, but I mention this as this reverb really surprised me coming from Kontakt (as I've never loved Kontakt's FX), but also with Infinite especially. I used these settings, messed with the mics a bit, and tried Horn, Cimbasso, and Tuba... all sounding great.



I like music said:


> One comes to a VI forum expecting to leave perhaps wanting to buy a library. One leaves having purchased a pen tablet 😂



Have you used your Huion with StaffPad? Good results?


----------



## I like music

Sean J said:


> Have you used your Huion with StaffPad? Good results


Don't have staff pad but want it. I hadn't even considered this! Ooo!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I'm assuming the sale discount doesn't stack on top of the crossgrade discount?





Montisquirrel said:


> Would like to know that, too.
> Also, on that Crossgrade page I can only select "Crossgrade to woods", there is no Brass option.



You will have to go into the bundle and down at the bottom, there's the cross-grade section. Fill everything in and select "Crossgrading to *" then "Infinite Wind Ensemble" (should be the only option), that means that you are crossgrading up the bundle with both Brass & Woodwinds in it, and you get the difference knocked off.

Or write to Aaron and ask, then you will surely get the correct answer.


----------



## Montisquirrel

Jonathan Moray said:


> You will have to go into the bundle and down at the bottom, there's the cross-grade section. Fill everything in and select "Crossgrading to *" then "Infinite Wind Ensemble" (should be the only option), that means that you are crossgrading up the bundle with both Brass & Woodwinds in it, and you get the difference knocked off.
> 
> Or write to Aaron and ask, then you will surely get the correct answer.



Yes. Stupid me. It surely says Wind Ensemble. As a non native speaker I mixed up that word with only woodWINDs.


----------



## tabulius

Downloading the brass and woodwinds now! I would like to thank everyone that has shared tests and demos here. It's been really helpful to make a decision. I don't know if anyone has posted comparisons between IB and JXL Brass, but I'm interested in testing the lower brass section and compare will I miss some of that power and low end in JXLB. I have some projects to be done, but when I have time, I'll post my results here. Looking forward to adding Infinite to my template!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Here's another version, this time with IB. It took me all of five minutes to transfer the midi to IB, do a few tweaks to fit IB better, and render.

I've also attached two more versions: one where IB is unprocessed/unmixed, and one where SM is unprocessed/unmixed. Just to show you how stark the difference is between the out-of-the-box sound. Both are great tools and excel at different things, you just need different strengths to use them effectively. To be fair, I do think the SM version is with the internal ER turned down all the way, not sure, but it makes little difference.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not sure I follow. Could you elaborate? Do you mean that you don't like the seating position? It is panned like a lot of orchestras; trumpets slightly left, horns slightly right. The only thing I can say is that one of the versions is messed up (seating is reversed).
> 
> I used a larger room making the positioning for something as far away as brass get lost in the room and early reflections, so it might be harder to pinpoint. There's also not much direct signal left that I could have panned since they are so far away.
> 
> But since SM and AV are both dry you can pan them however you like, which is one of the many charms of these types of libraries. So, you could very well try different seatings if you wanted to.


I have the feeling that the trumpets stay close because of their clarity, but if your whole orchestra were playing at the same time I might not have said the same thing.


----------



## pierrevigneron

tabulius said:


> Downloading the brass and woodwinds now! I would like to thank everyone that has shared tests and demos here. It's been really helpful to make a decision. I don't know if anyone has posted comparisons between IB and JXL Brass, but I'm interested in testing the lower brass section and compare will I miss some of that power and low end in JXLB. I have some projects to be done, but when I have time, I'll post my results here. Looking forward to adding Infinite to my template!


Welcome to the club


----------



## pierrevigneron

Sean J said:


> FYI... Kontakt 6 has a 100x better reverb than K5, if you want a dark splashy Lyndhurst quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the EQ and those reverb settings (time I changed between 1.4 and 2.4k), you really add some hall to the sound. I'm not usually a fan of layering verbs, but I mention this as this reverb really surprised me coming from Kontakt (as I've never loved Kontakt's FX), but also with Infinite especially. I used these settings, messed with the mics a bit, and tried Horn, Cimbasso, and Tuba... all sounding great.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you used your Huion with StaffPad? Good results?


Can you send demos with/without this eq and reverb please ?


----------



## pierrevigneron

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's another version, this time with IB. It took me all of five minutes to transfer the midi to IB, do a few tweaks to fit IB better, and render.
> 
> I've also attached two more versions: one where IB is unprocessed/unmixed, and one where SM is unprocessed/unmixed. Just to show you how stark the difference is between the out-of-the-box sound. Both are great tools and excel at different things, you just need different strengths to use them effectively. To be fair, I do think the SM version is with the internal ER turned down all the way, not sure, but it makes little difference.


Jonathan Moray, I would be curious to know your eq on the IB trumpets, for my part it was mainly an attenuation around 3KHz with wide Q. Also I find your midi programming better than mine, please can you send me the midi?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

pierrevigneron said:


> Jonathan Moray, I would be curious to know your eq on the IB trumpets, for my part it was mainly an attenuation around 3KHz with wide Q. Also I find your midi programming better than mine, please can you send me the midi?



For the mixed version, I had to add a lot of highs/air (8-10k+). I also remove some of the body at 250hz because the Star Wars recording is very bright and piercing and it doesn't have a lot of body. Other than that I just added a slight dip at 1.5-2k to round out the sound.

I used the midi file you sent just modified it a little bit. I didn't save the project, just rendered it to audio and mixed it.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Jonathan Moray said:


> For the mixed version, I had to add a lot of highs/air (8-10k+). I also remove some of the body at 250hz because the Star Wars recording is very bright and piercing and it doesn't have a lot of body. Other than that I just added a slight dip at 1.5-2k to round out the sound.
> 
> I used the midi file you sent just modified it a little bit. I didn't save the project, just rendered it to audio and mixed it.


Thank you ! For the brilliance on IB trumpets I also like to raise the 8KHz


----------



## Sean

Wondering what strings you guys use with IB/IW? Any particular libraries that blend exceptionally well with it?


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Don't have staff pad but want it. I hadn't even considered this! Ooo!



Yeah, StaffPad requires a screen that's both 1) _active_ pen supporting & 2) multitouch. Huion fits, and would essentially allow you to have a Surface Studio setup, but with any hardware.



pierrevigneron said:


> Can you send demos with/without this eq and reverb please ?



Yeah, I thought someone would ask, but was too tired to not be lazy, sorry. In a couple hours I'll be back and do an A/B with several instruments.


----------



## TintoL

Hi all, 

It has been great to go through this thread. Very good audio examples of the library here. 

I wanted to ask everyone here if you know if the trumpet solo in Infinite brass is able to get to a good jazz solo tone with and without mutes?

The Rahpsody in blue example in the website seems to show that it's possible. 

Thanks in advance for the info.


----------



## Mikro93

Yeah, I'd love to hear some Mancini-like stuff 
I believe that Cory Pelizzari's last example from the IB video showcases that vibe:


----------



## TintoL

Mikro93 said:


> Yeah, I'd love to hear some Mancini-like stuff
> I believe that Cory Pelizzari's last example from the IB video showcases that vibe:


WOWWW MAN.... YESS.... that is the feel I am kind of looking for.... thanks for posting that video.... This library is very flexible.... 

Thanks again


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

So close to buying both of these, but wondering if I really will utilize them given I have CineBrass (full), Cinematic Studio Brass, and JXL, along with Berlin Woodwinds. Part of my concern is how much controller data needs to be "played in" (I don't have a Leap Motion or a breath controller) vs. how much outside of CC1 I will need to be tweaking in programming.

And then, despite the nice demos that have been shared, there's just something about the tone that hasn't pushed me over the edge compared to those other libraries, specifically the "out of box" tone (without going through the various eq, pitch tweaking, reverb manipulation to try and get it to match another library or recording). I keep going back to these comparisons (given there aren't a lot of IB / IW demos out there relatively speaking).



ALittleNightMusic said:


> So, it is remarkably hard to find a comparison of the Infinite Series to other libraries (or even that many third-party demos / walkthroughs of Infinite compared to the usual suspects - perhaps that will change with the latest updates). However, I did find some that I thought would be useful to share here:
> 
> *BRASS - Copland's Fanfare*
> 
> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f8a71c236835c73a79a6806/1602908663851/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3/original/Aaron+Copland+-+Fanfare+for+the+Common+Man.mp3 (Infinite Brass 1.5)
> CineBrass Core
> https://youtu.be/omV2BbaCrRM (Spitfire Symphonic Brass)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN94g0rjZ80 (Cinematic Studio Brass vs. Sampling Modeling Brass)
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ldhGc-8WhgDA-wq2SuaVZyoZkAz1Yzg4/view (Berlin Brass (courtesy of @shawnsingh))
> 
> *WOODS - Rite of Spring*
> 
> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a7d8597268b968b7aa2f870/t/5f84806814861a26dd3a664b/1602512035487/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3/original/Stravinsky+-+Rite+of+Spring+%5BMozarteum%5D+.mp3 (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt0ALmpNU2U (BBCSO)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVe-TAyzNsY (Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lrwW0MPvqY (VSL Woodwinds)
> 
> Haven't found the pieces mocked up in Berlin Woodwinds, JXL Brass, or in Hollywood Orchestra unfortunately.


----------



## Sean

I think someone mentioned it earlier in this thread but it’d be really cool if you could buy just one instrument from Aaron to see if these libraries work with you. I have no clue if the playability and tweakability of this library would actually be a pro for me or not.


----------



## stfciu

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So close to buying both of these, but wondering if I really will utilize them given I have CineBrass (full), Cinematic Studio Brass, and JXL, along with Berlin Woodwinds. Part of my concern is how much controller data needs to be "played in" (I don't have a Leap Motion or a breath controller) vs. how much outside of CC1 I will need to be tweaking in programming.
> 
> And then, despite the nice demos that have been shared, there's just something about the tone that hasn't pushed me over the edge compared to those other libraries, specifically the "out of box" tone (without going through the various eq, pitch tweaking, reverb manipulation to try and get it to match another library or recording). I keep going back to these comparisons (given there aren't a lot of IB / IW demos out there relatively speaking).



On the same boat here. I really love the library and its approach and the tone is really good but I have the same feelings as you. Its not a case of the sound solely but more of the feeling of the sound and the brain its not easy to fool.
Right now I am between the devil and the angel on the other shoulder.


----------



## skythemusic

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's another version, this time with IB. It took me all of five minutes to transfer the midi to IB, do a few tweaks to fit IB better, and render.
> 
> I've also attached two more versions: one where IB is unprocessed/unmixed, and one where SM is unprocessed/unmixed. Just to show you how stark the difference is between the out-of-the-box sound. Both are great tools and excel at different things, you just need different strengths to use them effectively. To be fair, I do think the SM version is with the internal ER turned down all the way, not sure, but it makes little difference.


Woah...SM sounds super weird and NOT just because it's dry. The first IB is a little synthy but the 2nd one sounds better.


----------



## Sean J

I had a million delays today, but here's the Kontakt 6 reverb comparison.

"Dry" = 100% Close & Tree, 70% Ambient


Wet = Dry + Kontakt 6 reverb (settings shown here)


Amb = Dry + 100% Ambient to show the difference from Infinite to Kontakt's new reverb


----------



## Sean J

The metalic issue is masked a bit. On the CB Bone example, if you listen to just the tail of the LOTR example on the Amb & Wet, the convolution example (AMB) reminds me of a pixelated edge in photoshop. It's harsh. While I usually don't mix reverbs, the Kontakt reverb seems to "feather" that edge a bit. Also, sorry for calling it dry. Sometimes my brain w/o sleep and the words.... oy.

Anyway, for me the Horn & Trumpet are enough for me to prefer it with the K6 verb left on. The extra size added is nice.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Sean J said:


> I had a million delays today, but here's the Kontakt 6 reverb comparison.
> 
> "Dry" = 100% Close & Tree, 70% Ambient
> 
> 
> Wet = Dry + Kontakt 6 reverb (settings shown here)
> 
> 
> Amb = Dry + 100% Ambient to show the difference from Infinite to Kontakt's new reverb




Maybe also that this manipulation has the effect of making hear more bass overall in the reverb, which, I believe, helps to bring a more natural ambient sound, especially since I find the series infinite a little loaded in the upper midrange


----------



## Jonathan Moray

skythemusic said:


> Woah...SM sounds super weird and NOT just because it's dry. The first IB is a little synthy but the 2nd one sounds better.



Could you elaborate on why you think the dry SM version sounds 'weird'? That's what I had to work with.

I agree the mixed version of IB is extremely bright. If you had wanted and had the time, you could spend more time on it and make the performance better. Honestly, I don't think I would mix my brass like this usually but to match the Star Wars recording I had to because the Star Wars recording almost sounds synthetically bright as well. I can almost guarantee this is the remastered version of the soundtrack.


----------



## pierrevigneron

@aaronventure, do you think you can tell us at this point (and really sorry if it has already been mentioned) if infinite strings will have the following articulations: pizzicato, tremolo, harmonic, sul pont / tasto

Star Wars : Yes it is the remastered version 😉


----------



## Sean J

pierrevigneron said:


> Maybe also that this manipulation has the effect of making hear more bass overall in the reverb, which, I believe, helps to bring a more natural ambient sound, especially since I find the series infinite a little loaded in the upper midrange



I agree.

1) I actually forgot I changed the EQ slightly so I could leave it on all instruments in a sort of happy medium. Less air, more warmth, tamed mid... but nothing dramatic. The trumpets are very abrasive out-of-box, so I agree completely here. And yes, the EQ is only part of why it's less bright.







2) The reverb settings modulate and darken a bit... plus carefully chosen pre-delay

3) The closer bite emphasis of the mic mix + point 2 (darken & delayed) made for most of the brightness being just in the attack. Thus it sounds much more like a truer ambient sound to me, less IR metallic.

Edit: the ambient mix is why my big metallic complaints are. A less convolution-heavy mic mix is pretty solid, but if I want a wetter sound, my point is that I'd rather use the algo verb instead of the ambient mic.


----------



## timbit2006

Jonathan Moray said:


> Could you elaborate on why you think the dry SM version sounds 'weird'? That's what I had to work with.
> 
> I agree the mixed version of IB is extremely bright. If you had wanted and had the time, you could spend more time on it and make the performance better. Honestly, I don't think I would mix my brass like this usually but to match the Star Wars recording I had to because the Star Wars recording almost sounds synthetically bright as well. I can almost guarantee this is the remastered version of the soundtrack.


SM sounded way better to me to be honest. It had details in the sputtering and bell resonance that IB just doesn't have. Your demo just needs early reflections and convolution.

Has there been any mention of the big ol black friday yet? I'd be pretty happy ending up with Infinite Woodwinds.


----------



## I like music

timbit2006 said:


> SM sounded way better to me to be honest. It had details in the sputtering and bell resonance that IB just doesn't have. Your demo just needs early reflections and convolution.
> 
> Has there been any mention of the big ol black friday yet? I'd be pretty happy ending up with Infinite Woodwinds.



Even though I'm an IB fanboy, SM is one of the few other libraries I'm going to invest in. Yep, IW and IB are discounted now. Might have been a 25% discount (perhaps 15%). Someone correct me if I got that wrong.


----------



## timbit2006

I like music said:


> Even though I'm an IB fanboy, SM is one of the few other libraries I'm going to invest in. Yep, IW and IB are discounted now. Might have been a 25% discount (perhaps 15%). Someone correct me if I got that wrong.


Nice!
IB and SM are pretty similar to the same philosophy with playability but I think SM for sure focuses more on giving that extra bit of control but also needs more work and experience using it. Unfortunately they don't do woodwinds and Audio Modeling woodwinds is very expensive so other than Reaktor user instruments there's not many other woodwind VIs that allow live control on an advanced CC level.
Has anyone messed around with the settings of any of the Infinite instruments and found some hidden controls that are useful to map to a CC? Legato trans speed, attack/decay and whatnot. I'm buying it at the end of the month here for sure so I guess I'll find out as well eventually.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's another version, this time with IB. It took me all of five minutes to transfer the midi to IB, do a few tweaks to fit IB better, and render.
> 
> I've also attached two more versions: one where IB is unprocessed/unmixed, and one where SM is unprocessed/unmixed. Just to show you how stark the difference is between the out-of-the-box sound. Both are great tools and excel at different things, you just need different strengths to use them effectively. To be fair, I do think the SM version is with the internal ER turned down all the way, not sure, but it makes little difference.



Do you have a MIDI for this? I'd like to try in JXL if possible.


----------



## Mikro93

I like music said:


> Yep, IW and IB are discounted now. Might have been a 25% discount (perhaps 15%).


It's indeed 15% off of the individual prices, and 25% off of the bundle price when compared to the separate, non discounted prices


----------



## Jonathan Moray

timbit2006 said:


> SM sounded way better to me to be honest. It had details in the sputtering and bell resonance that IB just doesn't have. Your demo just needs early reflections and convolution.
> 
> Has there been any mention of the big ol black friday yet? I'd be pretty happy ending up with Infinite Woodwinds.



Thank you. Mixing SM has always been something of a staple for me. It can be quite the challenge but when you get it right, it's very rewarding. The first time I got stems of SM I was surprised and not really sure where to begin.

There's a lot of early reflections and tail in the mixed version. I didn't want to push them too far back or it would be unrealistic and not fit the original recording, in which you can hear the trumpets have some direct/close signal as well. Can it be done better? Absolutely!


----------



## BradHoyt

prodigalson said:


> Just finished a rough draft of a mockup of 'Anakin's Theme' from Phantom Menace to see how Infinite Woodwinds deals with the chorale at the top.
> 
> All Woodwinds and Brass are Infinite. I think they blend in this orchestral context quite well!
> 
> Check it out!



Just wanted to say... Anakin's Theme is an underrated masterpiece.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Do you have a MIDI for this? I'd like to try in JXL if possible.


 
I used one of these (think it's the first link) -- just modified it to fit the library better.






Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


I made some quick, random improvisations in an expressive contemporary style (Neue Musik) with bends and atonality. Surely not everyone's cup of tea, but even this brief first encounter speaks of the expressive nature of those instruments. I am really happy with them.




vi-control.net










Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


I've had nothing but "bum, bum, ba-da-bum" in my head now for the past day... EDIT: along with occasional fff operatic choir showing up singing the intro phrase, and it comes along with a dozen Van Gogh's screaming heads in my mind, too. Quite the torture :faint:




vi-control.net


----------



## timbit2006

Jonathan Moray said:


> Thank you. Mixing SM has always been something of a staple for me. It can be quite the challenge but when you get it right, it's very rewarding. The first time I got stems of SM I was surprised and not really sure where to begin.
> 
> There's a lot of early reflections and tail in the mixed version. I didn't want to push them too far back or it would be unrealistic and not fit the original recording, in which you can hear the trumpets have some direct/close signal as well. Can it be done better? Absolutely!


I actually missed your earlier post with the mixed versions, it sounds very good! Are you using the timbral shaping at all? I've found that to be an incredible way to add realism to SM


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Here's a very poor translation to JXL Brass - I spent very little time with minor CC adjustments, using the staccato and marcato long patches. 2 solo trumpets (which of course are the same samples) and 2 French horns (which again are the same samples). Default mix (I think AMXL Tree).

Certainly lacks the expressiveness of IB (despite having the 5 dynamic layers - couldn't seem to get that top end bite with modulation).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

timbit2006 said:


> I actually missed your earlier post with the mixed versions, it sounds very good! Are you using the timbral shaping at all? I've found that to be an incredible way to add realism to SM



Yes, timbral shaping is very handy. I hope for something like it in a future update of the Infinite Series; something where you can change the individual harmonics/overtones of the harmonic series. Don't know too much about the capabilities of Kontakt, but shouldn't be too hard I hope. A poor man's version would just be a key-tracking eq.

For this example, I don't think we used it very much. Trumpet 1 & 2/Horn 1 & 2 already have different timbral settings, and I believe we just kept them as is.


----------



## SirKen

Hey everyone,

I am interested in the Infinite series and I was wondering if the owners could help me understand it a bit better.


Does it use IRs to duplicate instruments or are there different samples for instruments of the same type? For example, Infinite Brass lists 6 horns. Are they using a shared sample set or is it 6 different horns captured individually?
From the search, I gathered that the IR for the early reflections can be kept while the tail and the room reverb disabled, so that we can use our own reverbs. Does this impact instrument positioning and depth (sound stage) negatively?
Was anyone able to use the included instruments for non-orchestral contexts?
Would appreciate any and all answers


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I love the shorts in JXL, but I hate the crossfades. They might be the worst crossfades I've heard in a while, tbh.


----------



## I like music

SirKen said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am interested in the Infinite series and I was wondering if the owners could help me understand it a bit better.
> 
> 
> Does it use IRs to duplicate instruments or are there different samples for instruments of the same type? For example, Infinite Brass lists 6 horns. Are they using a shared sample set or is it 6 different horns captured individually?
> From the search, I gathered that the IR for the early reflections can be kept while the tail and the room reverb disabled, so that we can use our own reverbs. Does this impact instrument positioning and depth (sound stage) negatively?
> Was anyone able to use the included instruments for non-orchestral contexts?
> Would appreciate any and all answers



I can only answer number 1. I believe they are separate samples. Also they are chromatically sampled. Also, the positioning is done in such a way apparently that you can create massive sections by repositioning instruments + using the transposition options Aaron gives.


----------



## Tonda

SirKen said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am interested in the Infinite series and I was wondering if the owners could help me understand it a bit better.
> 
> Would appreciate any and all answers



2. Is is indeed possible to disable only the tail of the reverb. This does have a little impact the instrument positioning and depth, but negligible. The advantage is you can use your own favourite reverb. Actually, this is the way I usually work. Another advantage is that all my other instruments (strings and percussion) have the same reverb. By the way, I only use the late reflections of the reverb.

3. In this thread I posted an example of non-orchestral context. It is a mockup of Marche du Soldat (Igor Stravinsky). The composition is for a small ensemble; violin, doublebass, clarinet, bassoon, trumpet, trombone and percussion. I did not use the positioning of the instrument, but did it in my DAW to get an upfront, close sound.


----------



## ChristianM

SirKen said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am interested in the Infinite series and I was wondering if the owners could help me understand it a bit better.
> 
> 
> Does it use IRs to duplicate instruments or are there different samples for instruments of the same type? For example, Infinite Brass lists 6 horns. Are they using a shared sample set or is it 6 different horns captured individually?
> From the search, I gathered that the IR for the early reflections can be kept while the tail and the room reverb disabled, so that we can use our own reverbs. Does this impact instrument positioning and depth (sound stage) negatively?
> Was anyone able to use the included instruments for non-orchestral contexts?
> Would appreciate any and all answers
> [/CITATION]
> :



For 1 :


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

uh sorry if this has been covered, search turned up nothing and i did try and skim through (172 pages tho... cut me some slack)

Trumpet 1 and 2 have insane phasing problems (2 less pronounced at lower dynamics but present), I see that 1.5 update mentioned some reworking on mic positions/tone, has that been addressed in this update?


----------



## shawnsingh

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> uh sorry if this has been covered, search turned up nothing and i did try and skim through (172 pages tho... cut me some slack)
> 
> Trumpet 1 and 2 have insane phasing problems (2 less pronounced at lower dynamics but present), I see that 1.5 update mentioned some reworking on mic positions/tone, has that been addressed in this update?



I had never felt this way with 1.4 or 1.5. Is it possible your setup accidentally has them using the same positional IR? I had this problem with trombones and the phasing was greatly reduced after fixing that.


----------



## shawnsingh

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> uh sorry if this has been covered, search turned up nothing and i did try and skim through (172 pages tho... cut me some slack)
> 
> Trumpet 1 and 2 have insane phasing problems (2 less pronounced at lower dynamics but present), I see that 1.5 update mentioned some reworking on mic positions/tone, has that been addressed in this update?



Another thought - is humanization accidentally off for both? I think by default, humanization is usually on for non-principal instruments.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

shawnsingh said:


> I had never felt this way with 1.4 or 1.5. Is it possible your setup accidentally has them using the same positional IR? I had this problem with trombones and the phasing was greatly reduced after fixing that.
> 
> Another thought - is humanization accidentally off for both? I think by default, humanization is usually on for non-principal instruments.



if I understand you, I think you're inferring that I mean when playing both together that they phase with each other, I could see how that's unclear from my wording but I mean that when I play trumpet 1 alone I get serious phasing, definitely at middle C. 

i've tried solo mics etc... thinking maybe that was the issue but nada 

and i did play with humanization yes


----------



## shawnsingh

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> if I understand you, I think you're inferring that I mean when playing both together that they phase with each other, I could see how that's unclear from my wording but I mean that when I play trumpet 1 alone I get serious phasing, definitely at middle C.
> 
> i've tried solo mics etc... thinking maybe that was the issue but nada
> 
> and i did play with humanization yes



whoops, I did misunderstand, sorry for the unnecessary noise then =)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I remember Aaron had said not to click notes into a MIDI editor and that potentially doing so via a score editor (or importing from something like Dorico) would also not sound good. Does that mean the library doesn't have round robins recorded? Or how much variation in velocity and note length is needed to avoid the machine gun effect? If I wrote in a phrase comprised of 8th notes or 16th notes in the score editor, I'm guessing that would not sound good by default, so trying to understand how much MIDI massaging would be necessary.


----------



## Sean

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I remember Aaron had said not to click notes into a MIDI editor and that potentially doing so via a score editor (or importing from something like Dorico) would also not sound good. Does that mean the library doesn't have round robins recorded? Or how much variation in velocity and note length is needed to avoid the machine gun effect? If I wrote in a phrase comprised of 8th notes or 16th notes in the score editor, I'm guessing that would not sound good by default, so trying to understand how much MIDI massaging would be necessary.


I was just watching the technical walkthrough and he said the way it works is it's basically impossible to get a machine gun effect. He can explain better than I can, so I'd recommend watching that again. He mentions it around here


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sean said:


> I was just watching the technical walkthrough and he said the way it works is it's basically impossible to get a machine gun effect. He can explain better than I can, so I'd recommend watching that again. He mentions it around here




That's great! Thank you. I wonder why it would be bad to then input notes via a score editor?


----------



## Sean

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That's great! Thank you. I wonder why it would be bad to then input notes via a score editor?


I'm not sure why. I imagine the way a score editor would output the midi would not take advantage of the features of this library very well I suppose, compared to playing it all in? Maybe he means just using the midi from a score editor without editing the midi a bit will make it sound bad.


----------



## aaronventure

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wonder why it would be bad to then input notes via a score editor?


It's not bad, it just takes forever because you don't want every note to the exact same length. 

Playing it in, you get humanized timings, note lengths and velocities. If you make sure you have that as well when sequencing, it's the exact same thing. One is just way, way faster.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

aaronventure said:


> It's not bad, it just takes forever because you don't want every note to the exact same length.
> 
> Playing it in, you get humanized timings, note lengths and velocities. If you make sure you have that as well when sequencing, it's the exact same thing. One is just way, way faster.



Got it - I suppose I could always throw the score MIDI through a humanize function too in Logic.


----------



## aaronventure

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Got it - I suppose I could always throw the score MIDI through a humanize function too in Logic.


Absolutely. If it does note length humanization, all the better. Otherwise, adjusting that by hand's gonna take a bit. Also, short notes (e.g. 16ths) aren't really that long, you'll most likely have to shorten them.

The simplest part of MIDI editing is moving the notes up and down. So even if you were to slow your recording speed down to 0.5x, as long as you focus on trying to hit the timing and length, even if you just play two neighboring notes with two fingers and then move the notes to the correct pitches, it's gonna be much faster than manually doing everything.


----------



## Sean J

aaronventure said:


> Absolutely. If it does note length humanization, all the better. Otherwise, adjusting that by hand's gonna take a bit. Also, short notes (e.g. 16ths) aren't really that long, you'll most likely have to shorten them.
> 
> The simplest part of MIDI editing is moving the notes up and down. So even if you were to slow your recording speed down to 0.5x, as long as you focus on trying to hit the timing and length, even if you just play two neighboring notes with two fingers and then move the notes to the correct pitches, it's gonna be much faster than manually doing everything.



For those interested...

Dorico really is the best Infinite option for click-it-in users on these points.

1 - Humanize timing only changes start times, so length is humanized.
2 - Humanize velocity has a downbeat emphasis option. Very convincing 90% of the time.
3 - I brought up CC preset programming and the project manager agreed with me to add it...

Once #3 is done, Dorico will have a conditional rule system for humanized CC behavior. IF non-leg AND whole-note+ length AND pp dynamics... then swell CC1. For ff, dip a bit then swell. You can program in the way humans would interpret each performance. Clearly one might over-ride this and draw their own performance... but Dorico will certainly never sound "flat" out-of-box with Infinite. This is the only limitation I've found with Infinite & Dorico right now. Everything else is remarkably useful once you tie dynamics in Dorico to both CC1 and velocity (a simple task).

Studio One has faster access to humanize settings than Cubase, and better mass-edit tools for notes in the piano roll. So it's a great alternative here. not as good of humanize settings, but better than other DAWs IMHO. Plus, the notation editor is much faster to work in than Dorico. So it's a trade-off, but one worth saying here if someone doesn't want to jump out of the DAW world.


----------



## Sean

I ended up biting the bullet and bought Infinite Brass. I quite like it so far, my only complaint atm is the tone of the euphonium, it's much too brassy in my opinion. I'm highly considering getting the woodwinds now too.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sean said:


> I ended up biting the bullet and bought Infinite Brass. I quite like it so far, my only complaint atm is the tone of the euphonium, it's much too brassy in my opinion. I'm highly considering getting the woodwinds now too.



What other brass libraries do you have?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

In my ongoing comparative quest, here is Berlin Woodwinds' (legacy) Clarinet 1 doing the opening to Saint-Saens sonata that Aaron graciously posted the MIDI of. And here is IW 2.0 doing it https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-woodwinds-saint-saens-clarinet-sonata

Couple things I noticed:
- BWW has no vibrato control for Clarinets. Maybe Revive added it.
- No way to control attacks with BWW, while with IW you can use velocity and I think it is apparent in the demo (is there a way to control releases in IW?)
- IW is smoother in terms of note transitions (especially noticeable at the end). Maybe too smooth? But I noticed there is a "key noise" option so maybe that will make a difference along with not overlapping the notes?
- BWW has "noise" in each sample (I've noticed Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds have that as well, especially with more vibrato). IW seems to be very clean - I wonder if that gives the impression of realism vs. not realism. Perhaps having some of that or breath noises in the future you can dial in would help balance it out?


----------



## Sean

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What other brass libraries do you have?


Hollywood Brass is my only other dedicated brass library. I do have Jaeger and Albion ONE as well.


----------



## Woodie1972

Sean said:


> Wondering what strings you guys use with IB/IW? Any particular libraries that blend exceptionally well with it?


I use VSL Orchestral Strings (and sometimes Appasionata strings), they blend pretty good.


----------



## Woodie1972

Composed last week using IW and IB and Orchestral Strings, Harp and Percussion by VSL


----------



## Tonda

I have posted an example where Dorico performs an orchestration I did recently. 
I used IW, IB and Sample Modeling Strings & Ensemble. 






Dorico plays Cordoba from I. Albeniz with my favorite orchestral VST’s


I was using the trial version of Dorico and I have to admit I'm quite impressed with the playing quality. It is truly an impressive piece of software! In order to test and get to know the notation program well, I’ve chosen to orchestrate Isaac Albeniz's piano piece Cordoba. I love the piece; I...




vi-control.net


----------



## Woodie1972

Tonda said:


> I have posted an example where Dorico performs an orchestration I did recently.
> I used IW, IB and Sample Modeling Strings & Ensemble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dorico plays Cordoba from I. Albeniz with my favorite orchestral VST’s
> 
> 
> I was using the trial version of Dorico and I have to admit I'm quite impressed with the playing quality. It is truly an impressive piece of software! In order to test and get to know the notation program well, I’ve chosen to orchestrate Isaac Albeniz's piano piece Cordoba. I love the piece; I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



Mine above is also composed in Dorico.

Only thing I had to do was some tweaking for the attack of the notes for both IW & IB and some EQ-ing..
The solo oboe is btw from IW 1.1; the oboe from 2.0 is not constant enough IMO in terms of sound. This is of course my personal opinion, not a bad word about the overall quality of the library as it is very good.

Instrumentation is:

2 Flutes
2 oboes
1 English horn
2 clarinets
2 bassoons
4 french horns
3 trombones
1 tuba
Timpani, suspended cymbal and bass drum
Harp
Full string section


----------



## Tonda

Woodie1972 said:


> Mine above is also composed in Dorico...



Which proves how impressive Dorico is! I like your composition, btw!
I used IW 2.0 together with IB 1.5 due the consistency in spaces. But I will compare the oboe from 1.1 with the latest version.


----------



## Sean

Does anyone know if Finale can do some similar humanization like Dorico for IB? I can't bring myself to switch to Dorico, it just doesn't click with me.


----------



## Trash Panda

Bought the bundle yesterday and plugged it into a few pieces without any editing. I think my GAS for brass and woodwind libraries is forever fulfilled now.


----------



## Woodie1972

Sean said:


> Does anyone know if Finale can do some similar humanization like Dorico for IB? I can't bring myself to switch to Dorico, it just doesn't click with me.


It's been a while since I used finale, but with good settings in HP and some tweaking in midi I think you can get a pretty decent result as well. 
Dorico has the great option of setting timing accuracy to a certain amount, which is comparable with Humanization in a DAW. I don't think finale has this, which makes a huge difference.


----------



## Sean

I'm having a lot of fun messing around with IB. It's certainly exposing my poor piano skills.


----------



## Nando Florestan

If you're not careful with your timing you are gonna be compared to Blakus' Star Wars mockup. (See Latest Posts)


----------



## PerryD

I was experimenting with 4 IB trumpets plus a Samplemodeling trumpet. I actually set up the IB trumpets for breath control and just copied the midi from the SM tracks. They respond in a very similar way via BC. IB plus SM French Horn also works well. I would mess with EQ and balance for an actual full piece.


----------



## unclecheeks

How do IW owners feel about the library in more lyrical, non-orchestral contexts, as compared to the Fluffy Woodwinds or the 8dio Claire Woodwinds, which are both currently on sale?


----------



## Nando Florestan

Well, in order to play something lyrical you need long notes, therefore 8dio is out of the question, right? About Fluffy I also want to know.


----------



## Stevie

Yeah, 8dio doesn’t go the extra mile to loop legato notes. Same issue on Studio Woodwinds, nice tone, awful playability. Deeply sampled doesn’t help if shitty programmed. 

I have the Fluffy Woodwinds and I’m highly disappointed with the shorts. When you want to keep the short notes at like velocity 40, random notes break out and play at a higher velocity. The library is unusable for me that way. You can’t create a homogenous shorts pattern. 
Contacted the dev, he said he would look into it. I think that was 1 year ago. He never got back to me about it.


----------



## unclecheeks

Nando Florestan said:


> Well, in order to play something lyrical you need long notes, therefore 8dio is out of the question, right? About Fluffy I also want to know.





Stevie said:


> Yeah, 8dio doesn’t go the extra mile to loop legato notes. Same issue on Studio Woodwinds, nice tone, awful playability. Deeply sampled doesn’t help if shitty programmed.
> 
> I have the Fluffy Woodwinds and I’m highly disappointed with the shorts. When you want to keep the short notes at like velocity 40, random notes break out and play at a higher velocity. The library is unusable for me that way. You can’t create a homogenous shorts pattern.
> Contacted the dev, he said he would look into it. I think that was 1 year ago. He never got back to me about it.



True that.... I do have the 8dio intimate winds and noticed that as well. If you drench them in reverb, it helps obscure the lack of sustains after legato transitions.... but then you're drenching them in reverb which sort of goes against the whole intimate thing! 

Good to know about the shorts in the Fluffys. Not to keen on having to keyswitch anyway, and that's of course a big plus for IW... (Assuming that the Fluffys are unlocked, maybe you can open up the wrench and bring down the offending short notes then resave?) 

I'm just wondering if the IW tone can get sweet enough for doing more exposed, non-orchestral music. Despite the lack of sustains in the 8dios, the Claire Alto Flute that I do have just sounds so lovely. Can IW get anywhere close to this?


----------



## unclecheeks

Nando Florestan said:


> Well, in order to play something lyrical you need long notes, therefore 8dio is out of the question, right? About Fluffy I also want to know.



If I recall correctly, the fluffys do have looped sustains after legato, though from Cory Pelizzari's review I also recall there being some phasing on the transition. Not 100% sure on this though.


----------



## Nando Florestan

unclecheeks said:


> True that.... I do have the 8dio intimate winds and noticed that as well. If you drench them in reverb, it helps obscure the lack of sustains after legato transitions.... but then you're drenching them in reverb which sort of goes against the whole intimate thing!
> 
> Good to know about the shorts in the Fluffys. Not to keen on having to keyswitch anyway, and that's of course a big plus for IW... (Assuming that the Fluffys are unlocked, maybe you can open up the wrench and bring down the offending short notes then resave?)
> 
> I'm just wondering if the IW tone can get sweet enough for doing more exposed, non-orchestral music. Despite the lack of sustains in the 8dios, the Claire Alto Flute that I do have just sounds so lovely. Can IW get anywhere close to this?



I just checked the out Fluffy oboe. Sounds nasty even in their demos.

Let me just ask you this. Have you seen a lot of mockups out there using Fluffy woods? Don't make the classic mistake of buying something based on the developer's demos...


----------



## Stevie

Well, I’m also hugely disappointed by Cory’s videos. That was the point I decided not to rely his opinion anymore. He basically made it look like the library was some super weapon. It’s not.


----------



## DANIELE

I tried to write a pretty modern piece using IB 1.5 and IW 2.0. If someone is interested in less classic stuff and more "epic" one I'll post it.

I know I know, EPIC today is too overused but I write many genres of orchestral music and I think it could be useful to someone to see how these libraries perform in this kind of music.

Anyway I promise it is not a BUM - BRAAAAAAAAM - BUM etc...kind of track.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I tried to write a pretty modern piece using IB 1.5 and IW 2.0. If someone is interested in less classic stuff and more "epic" one I'll post it.
> 
> I know I know, EPIC today is too overused but I write many genres of orchestral music and I think it could be useful to someone to see how these libraries perform in this kind of music.
> 
> Anyway I promise it is not a BUM - BRAAAAAAAAM - BUM etc...kind of track.



Post it, you ass. Keen for a listen!!!


----------



## Mikro93

Stevie said:


> Well, I’m also hugely disappointed by Cory’s videos. That was the point I decided not to rely his opinion anymore. He basically made it look like the library was some super weapon. It’s not.


Wait, are you talking about Fluffy's woodwinds, or IW?


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Post it, you ass. Keen for a listen!!!



The track is almost finished, I still need to do the mastering so give me a couple of days and I'll post it. Maybe I'll try a quick mastering just to show how the library performs and then I'll work on the final one.


----------



## Stevie

Mikro93 said:


> Wait, are you talking about Fluffy's woodwinds, or IW?


Fluffy


----------



## tabulius

I had some time today to mix and match Infinite Brass with Berlin/JXL Brass. I think by doing so, the Teldex stage gives instruments a bit more body and 3d space that I like.

Here is a quick (badly played) example. What you hear is:
IB horns naked -> IB horns mixed with BB Horn 1
IB Trombones & Bass Trombones naked -> IB with JXL solo trombone and bass trombones a3
IB trumpets -> IB mixed with BB solo trumpet.

I build "performance" patches from BB and JXL so I can play these together with IB without key switching. I think this is working pretty well. CPU is rising on my old i7 6700K tho, and it might struggle with full orchestra projects.


----------



## shawnsingh

tabulius said:


> I had some time today to mix and match Infinite Brass with Berlin/JXL Brass. I think by doing so, the Teldex stage gives instruments a bit more body and 3d space that I like.
> 
> Here is a quick (badly played) example. What you hear is:
> IB horns naked -> IB horns mixed with BB Horn 1
> IB Trombones & Bass Trombones naked -> IB with JXL solo trombone and bass trombones a3
> IB trumpets -> IB mixed with BB solo trumpet.
> 
> I build "performance" patches from BB and JXL so I can play these together with IB without key switching. I think this is working pretty well. CPU is rising on my old i7 6700K tho, and it might struggle with full orchestra projects.



Would love to know how you mixed IB to match them together. What mic mix did you use for BB and JXL, too?

I tried the same with IB 1.4 to match tree-only BB and JXL, I think it worked quite well. I ended up with Mozarteum + EQs for each group of instruments, which got 80% of the way there. That was more than enough for layering the instruments. But if the instruments were compared solo vs solo, it was obvious they weren't matched in the same space - it was still fine to swap them or use them together in divisi. For IB 1.5 I haven't tried that yet.


----------



## tabulius

I didn't try to match the space / hall at all. I think it's not needed because in a full mix you can't really distinguish different tails imo. Also, I think of mixing libraries as adding new microphones to bring something new to the mix (frequencies and more close, stage or hall sound). So my main goal was to have more of that fuller sound, low end, and Teldex stage sound. Another goal was playability and I tried to match it with IB in that regard. I tried my best to balance triggering shorts vs longs. BB and JXL instruments don't sound particularly good on their own, because I've disabled releases from longs and legatos, but blending in they are doing the job. In JXL I used only the tree mics for longs, for shorts I used premixed blend to include the full early reflections and Teldex tail sound. For BB I had, if I remember correctly, -7dB of Tree, ortf 0db. In horns, I also added close for the bite. Again this wasn't for matching the hall sound, but it had the frequencies that I liked using with IB.

For my taste Mozarteum is too wet for me, so I went for Bersa hall that has a smaller "scoring studio" sound. 100% mains and around 60% of the ambient. All brass is sent into Seventh Heaven hall reverb. I tamed the higher frequencies with EQ and Fabfilter MB - IB had too much of it for my taste.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

tabulius said:


> I had some time today to mix and match Infinite Brass with Berlin/JXL Brass. I think by doing so, the Teldex stage gives instruments a bit more body and 3d space that I like.
> 
> Here is a quick (badly played) example. What you hear is:
> IB horns naked -> IB horns mixed with BB Horn 1
> IB Trombones & Bass Trombones naked -> IB with JXL solo trombone and bass trombones a3
> IB trumpets -> IB mixed with BB solo trumpet.
> 
> I build "performance" patches from BB and JXL so I can play these together with IB without key switching. I think this is working pretty well. CPU is rising on my old i7 6700K tho, and it might struggle with full orchestra projects.



Even the IB stuff by itself sounded quite good! Well done. What did your JXL performance patch setup look like if I may ask?


----------



## Ivan M.

Tonda said:


> I have posted an example where Dorico performs an orchestration I did recently.
> I used IW, IB and Sample Modeling Strings & Ensemble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dorico plays Cordoba from I. Albeniz with my favorite orchestral VST’s
> 
> 
> I was using the trial version of Dorico and I have to admit I'm quite impressed with the playing quality. It is truly an impressive piece of software! In order to test and get to know the notation program well, I’ve chosen to orchestrate Isaac Albeniz's piano piece Cordoba. I love the piece; I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



Great! What processor do you have? Does it play smoothly? This combination of VIs, especially SM strings, are quite heavy on my cpu


----------



## Ivan M.

A new IB and IW owner here and quite happy with both! 
I like not having to tinker with keyswitches, and found I enjoy creating my own phrasing with a breath controller. Way faster than with traditional sampled libs.

This was done quickly, given the midi (I did my own CC phrasing), and it is all infinite brass (+ SM strings and NI timpani):






Which One Do You Like Better and Why?


All on first listen... First: Don't quite dig the tone... I guess it's supposed to be silky and smooth and open up but don't really hear it. Weird releases and attacks as if the notes aren't articulated properly. Weird "watery" tail (not very smooth). Feels static overall. Spatialization feels...




vi-control.net


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

PerryD said:


> I was experimenting with 4 IB trumpets plus a Samplemodeling trumpet. I actually set up the IB trumpets for breath control and just copied the midi from the SM tracks. They respond in a very similar way via BC. IB plus SM French Horn also works well. I would mess with EQ and balance for an actual full piece.


How are you laying out these chords? Is SM playing the top note and IB playing the others?


----------



## PerryD

NeonMediaKJT said:


> How are you laying out these chords? Is SM playing the top note and IB playing the others?


 Separate (layered) tracks for chords.


----------



## Tonda

Ivan M. said:


> Great! What processor do you have? Does it play smoothly? This combination of VIs, especially SM strings, are quite heavy on my cpu



Thanks!

I have an Intel i9-10900x. Yes, it plays smoothly, the processor uses about 40% of its capacity.


----------



## Trash Panda

These libraries are so much fun. Here's a quick little rendition of the intro to the big band classic Sing Sing Sing (BBC version). I just pulled in the MIDI from Musescore and made some tweaks on dynamics, velocities, growls and a little pitch bending.


----------



## PerryD

IB holds its own with JXL brass. IB Trumpets, Trombones and French horns here, using JXL mixed ensemble for whole notes.


----------



## DANIELE

Tonda said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I have an Intel i9-10900x. Yes, it plays smoothly, the processor uses about 40% of its capacity.



Yeah I also think it is a great CPU, my last project is very big and heavy but I managed to build it smoothly, same with video render and so on.


----------



## Sean

It seems like for euphoniums, during legato if you play the notes at high enough velocity it rearticulates the note instead of playing a smooth legato. It's not something that appears to happen with other instruments. Is this intended or a bug? The only thing I could think of is it's supposed to be the sound of the valves but the other instruments don't include this, and you normally wouldn't really hear this in most euphonium recordings.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about, euphonium and horn playing the exact same midi.





Maybe @aaronventure can weigh in?

Also apologies if this is a known problem.


----------



## shawnsingh

Almost done with my fanfare piece. I updated the template to IB 1.5 and I also finally added woodwinds using IW 2.0. Only missing piece is the ending. Otherwise, I'm going to stop tweaking this piece (despite endless changes I want to make...) I'll update this same link with final version eventually.

As always, feedback is welcome, especially about the mix and MIDI programming. Does anywhere (or everywhere?) sound obviously fake? Any suggestions about improving the mix?


----------



## Trash Panda

shawnsingh said:


> Almost done with my fanfare piece. I updated the template to IB 1.5 and I also finally added woodwinds using IW 2.0. Only missing piece is the ending. Otherwise, I'm going to stop tweaking this piece (despite endless changes I want to make...) I'll update this same link with final version eventually.
> 
> As always, feedback is welcome, especially about the mix and MIDI programming. Does anywhere (or everywhere?) sound obviously fake? Any suggestions about improving the mix?



Percussion drowns out the brass at a few points where the mix gets busy. Also felt a little weird doing a complete reset to the opening line in silence after things started to get going. Might be a good opportunity to start the evolution of the motif there.

Programming sounds good to my novice ears.


----------



## Trash Panda

@aaronventure some of the brass instruments only seem to have a decent amount of cuivre at FFF dynamics (low brass in particular). Is this a value we can tweak to force more aggressive cuivre or is it sampled?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

shawnsingh said:


> Almost done with my fanfare piece. I updated the template to IB 1.5 and I also finally added woodwinds using IW 2.0. Only missing piece is the ending. Otherwise, I'm going to stop tweaking this piece (despite endless changes I want to make...) I'll update this same link with final version eventually.
> 
> As always, feedback is welcome, especially about the mix and MIDI programming. Does anywhere (or everywhere?) sound obviously fake? Any suggestions about improving the mix?



Man... Your cue is what pushed me to get this lib. It so good


----------



## Kent

shawnsingh said:


> Almost done with my fanfare piece. I updated the template to IB 1.5 and I also finally added woodwinds using IW 2.0. Only missing piece is the ending. Otherwise, I'm going to stop tweaking this piece (despite endless changes I want to make...) I'll update this same link with final version eventually.
> 
> As always, feedback is welcome, especially about the mix and MIDI programming. Does anywhere (or everywhere?) sound obviously fake? Any suggestions about improving the mix?



Watching a lot of early 60s epics?? This is great!


----------



## aaronventure

Sean said:


> It seems like for euphoniums, during legato if you play the notes at high enough velocity it rearticulates the note instead of playing a smooth legato. It's not something that appears to happen with other instruments. Is this intended or a bug? The only thing I could think of is it's supposed to be the sound of the valves but the other instruments don't include this, and you normally wouldn't really hear this in most euphonium recordings.
> 
> Here is an example of what I'm talking about, euphonium and horn playing the exact same midi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe @aaronventure can weigh in?
> 
> Also apologies if this is a known problem.


It makes sense if you want your runs to be clean. I would not play normal lyrical passages with >100 velocities. Also keep in mind that all instruments of the tuba family have a full dynamic range. But given how they're normally played, a lyrical passage marked _ff _would not be played with Infinite at Dynamics 100-120, but rather at 60-70. Tubas need a lot of air.


----------



## Sean

aaronventure said:


> It makes sense if you want your runs to be clean. I would not play normal lyrical passages with >100 velocities. Also keep in mind that all instruments of the tuba family have a full dynamic range. But given how they're normally played, a lyrical passage marked _ff _would not be played with Infinite at Dynamics 100-120, but rather at 60-70. Tubas need a lot of air.


I agree but even with dynamics at 64, it still has this rearticulation trigger during an intended legato phrase. It doesn't seem to happen with tuba either. If that's still the intended behavior then I understand and I'll try to work around it.


----------



## lljfnord

aaronventure said:


> But given how they're normally played, a lyrical passage marked _ff _would not be played with Infinite at Dynamics 100-120, but rather at 60-70.


You bring up something interesting here. Would you happen to have a chart of suggested velocities for common dynamics markings for each of your brass instruments? It's got to be different for a euphonium than it is for a trumpet, right?


----------



## Geocranium

Loving the brass! Here's a work in progress of an all-brass cue I'm making for a friend.


----------



## CT

Hmm, I like that a lot more than almost anything else I've heard from Infinite Brass, although the trombone is still a little dodgy.


----------



## rmak

does anyone know when the sale end for infinite vst s?

With the woodwind articulations (I guess brass too? I only looked WW so far), it looks like you play them or trigger them depending on how you use the vst? There's no explicit patches for articulations? Are articulations pretty much covered with this approach? Marcatos, staccatos, porta. are there trills? I see flutter under articulate on UI.


----------



## Sean

rmak said:


> does anyone know when the sale end for infinite vst s?
> 
> With the articulations, it looks like you play them or trigger them depending on how you use the vst? There's no explicit patches for articulations? Are articulations pretty much covered with this approach? Marcatos, staccatos, porta. are there trills?


Watch the technical walkthrough, it goes over articulations. Sale lasts through November.


----------



## aaronventure

Sean said:


> I agree but even with dynamics at 64, it still has this rearticulation trigger during an intended legato phrase. It doesn't seem to happen with tuba either. If that's still the intended behavior then I understand and I'll try to work around it.


You don't have to play high velocity legato notes. I mean I could limit/soften it but then runs/rips/falls become harder to pull off. 



rmak said:


> Are articulations pretty much covered with this approach?


Yes, think of the Dynamics slider as "breath amount" and you play these articulations like a wind player would. 



rmak said:


> are there trills?


Just hold one note and repeatedly press the other one. You can even do octave trills! Or two-octave trills! Not that you should, but you can.


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> Hmm, I like that a lot more than almost anything else I've heard from Infinite Brass, although the trombone is still a little dodgy.



Though I'm a fanboy through and through, the trombone tone is the only thing I have a few questions about. However, since I don't hear them in solo settings so often, and quite often in the music I listen to they're a _bit_ more buried than trumpets or horns, I'm never sure of what they _should_ sound like.

Can you articulate what you're hearing or not hearing? I want to know if I'm imagining something that's not there.

For example, I've heard a couple people talk about the trumpet's tone not being rounded or heavy, and it getting thin at the top end of its dynamics. However, I've listened to a few more classical recordings and of composers whose music I liked (Goldsmith, Williams) recently and I actually thought that the trumpet had a closer concept/tone to those recordings than samples I hear from other developers.

So yeah, would love to know what sounds a little dodgy on the trombones, as I'm getting a little niggle with those too.

Anyhow, I hope lots of people pick these libraries up. Currently my all-time favourites. Absolute joy.


----------



## CT

I like music said:


> Can you articulate what you're hearing or not hearing?



Probably not very well. The sustained tone is sort of robotic, as if you're hearing a very thin slice of the sound of a real trombone stretched way too much. Attacks are occasionally odd too but I think the attack wonkiness I hear from all the instruments might be a performance thing.


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> Probably not very well. The sustained tone is sort of robotic, as if you're hearing a very thin slice of the sound of a real trombone stretched way too much. Attacks are occasionally odd too but I think the attack wonkiness I hear from all the instruments might be a performance thing.



Got it, thanks. I might go and try to mock up a few bars from something that is very trombone-heavy in an exposed context. Probably the easiest way for me to check or compare. Problem is I don't know any such music.


----------



## CT

This is an old favorite from high school band. We had a lot of fun in the trombone section... perhaps too much fun. Probably not useful for what you're after but I'm going down memory lane apparently.


----------



## Mikro93

Geocranium said:


> Loving the brass! Here's a work in progress of an all-brass cue I'm making for a friend.



This is amazing! And that's were IB seems to really shine 

In my humble opininon of somebody who doesn't own the library, IB can be as humanized as you can make it, and you did that very well!

EDIT: upon listening again, I love how everything sounds "performed" in your cue, as Aaron would advise. The trombone shorts sound as messy as they should, the trumpet has the occasional wonkiness in its line, it's great!


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> This is an old favorite from high school band. We had a lot of fun in the trombone section... perhaps too much fun. Probably not useful for what you're after but I'm going down memory lane apparently.




Thanks - will see if I can find snippets of the score to mock up some bits and see how the trombones go.


----------



## CT

I checked to see if I still had my trombone parts to upload but they're lost to the ages. :(


----------



## ChristianM

rmak said:


> does anyone know when the sale end for infinite vst s?
> 
> With the woodwind articulations (I guess brass too? I only looked WW so far), it looks like you play them or trigger them depending on how you use the vst? There's no explicit patches for articulations? Are articulations pretty much covered with this approach? Marcatos, staccatos, porta. are there trills? I see flutter under articulate on UI.


I asked aaron the question but I didn't get an answer, so I rushed


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> I checked to see if I still had my trombone parts to upload but they're lost to the ages. :(


Thanks for looking! Will try to find something to mock up in any case


----------



## Sean

aaronventure said:


> You don't have to play high velocity legato notes. I mean I could limit/soften it but then runs/rips/falls become harder to pull off.


Yea honestly I think the main problem is my midi keyboard is not very good at differentiating between how hard I hit the keys. With some tweaking of the midi I got a good sound out of the euphonium. Thanks for the answers, IB is definitely my favorite sample library purchase!


----------



## rmak

ChristianM said:


> I asked aaron the question but I didn't get an answer, so I rushed


He answered above 🙂


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> Though I'm a fanboy through and through, the trombone tone is the only thing I have a few questions about. However, since I don't hear them in solo settings so often, and quite often in the music I listen to they're a _bit_ more buried than trumpets or horns, I'm never sure of what they _should_ sound like.
> 
> Can you articulate what you're hearing or not hearing? I want to know if I'm imagining something that's not there.
> 
> For example, I've heard a couple people talk about the trumpet's tone not being rounded or heavy, and it getting thin at the top end of its dynamics. However, I've listened to a few more classical recordings and of composers whose music I liked (Goldsmith, Williams) recently and I actually thought that the trumpet had a closer concept/tone to those recordings than samples I hear from other developers.
> 
> So yeah, would love to know what sounds a little dodgy on the trombones, as I'm getting a little niggle with those too.
> 
> Anyhow, I hope lots of people pick these libraries up. Currently my all-time favourites. Absolute joy.


I would like more bite in the attacks and cuivre in the sustains in f to ff range on all the brass and a heavier amount at fff. I love aggressive brass. It may be easier to get more with a different IR or mic mix, but I haven’t found a happy setting quite yet.

If it could even be dialed in like with flutter and growl, that would be amazing.


----------



## K. Johnston

I am absolutely enamored with Infinite Woodwinds! I have been working on a Jurassic Park mockup for months and finally finished. This library has been a breeze to work with. Then the 2.0 update hit... Phew! The runs are stellar, it's nimble, the tone sounds great in the mix and exposed. I can't thank you enough Aaron for your painstaking dedication to this product.


----------



## aaronventure

The Serinator said:


> I would like more bite in the attacks and cuivre in the sustains in f to ff range on all the brass and a heavier amount at fff.



You can actually just do a high shelf EQ, and that's because there's very little hiss in Infinite Brass. Plus I doubt you're really after more than couple of dB. 

You can link its gain knob to a controller, and then it's just like flutter and growl!


----------



## vicontrolu

If anything IB has to much bites in the attacks and too much of the fff sound. That's why more than one here has suggested to work at low modwheel values even in ff passages.

Are you sure you don't just like some other tone/brass combo? Can you add an example of some other library that does this cuivre thing as you' d expect?

I remember I played Caspian and IB horns and trumpets one after the other and IB got the grittier, brightest fff there


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

K. Johnston said:


> I am absolutely enamored with Infinite Woodwinds! I have been working on a Jurassic Park mockup for months and finally finished. This library has been a breeze to work with. Then the 2.0 update hit... Phew! The runs are stellar, it's nimble, the tone sounds great in the mix and exposed. I can't thank you enough Aaron for your painstaking dedication to this product.




Did you use IB for the brass too? Great job!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

aaronventure said:


> You don't have to play high velocity legato notes. I mean I could limit/soften it but then runs/rips/falls become harder to pull off.
> 
> 
> Yes, think of the Dynamics slider as "breath amount" and you play these articulations like a wind player would.
> 
> 
> Just hold one note and repeatedly press the other one. You can even do octave trills! Or two-octave trills! Not that you should, but you can.


Aaron, the current sale doesn't stack on top of the crossgrade price does it?


----------



## K. Johnston

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Did you use IB for the brass too? Great job!



I did not. I don't have IB as of yet. From everything I hear, it sounds awesome. If it's anything like IW in terms of versatility, it will be part of my collection soon. I used CSB for all brass parts layered with Sample Modeling trumpets, trombones, and horns. It took some time to get SM brass to sit in the mix right. It was an absolute pain to get CSB to line up timewise. But the results are good but I would prefer a workflow that did not include so much nudging.

Thanks for the comment!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

K. Johnston said:


> I did not. I don't have IB as of yet. From everything I hear, it sounds awesome. If it's anything like IW in terms of versatility, it will be part of my collection soon. I used CSB for all brass parts layered with Sample Modeling trumpets, trombones, and horns. It took some time to get SM brass to sit in the mix right. It was an absolute pain to get CSB to line up timewise. But the results are good but I would prefer a workflow that did not include so much nudging.
> 
> Thanks for the comment!



Thanks! SM brass seems like it would be more difficult to program than IB but curious what you think? IB demos have more of that orchestral sound to me as well.


----------



## Sean

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Aaron, the current sale doesn't stack on top of the crossgrade price does it?


It does I believe, if you look at the Bundle page it shows the crossgrade prices for this sale: 
Infinite Brass X = $299
Infinite Woodwinds X = $199


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Sean said:


> It does I believe, if you look at the Bundle page it shows the crossgrade prices for this sale:
> Infinite Brass X = $299
> Infinite Woodwinds X = $199


👀I was hoping not so I had time to wait 🤣


----------



## Sean

NeonMediaKJT said:


> 👀I was hoping not so I had time to wait 🤣


Yea I just bought IW too because I like the brass so much. Wasn't really planning on it before getting the brass though lol


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Sean said:


> Yea I just bought IW too because I like the brass so much. Wasn't really planning on it before getting the brass though lol


Hahaha, yeah, I actually intended on getting woodwinds first because I've been needing a more comprehensive woodwind lib for years now, but the brass was too tempting. 

So it sounds like the sale runs through November and will probably end December, right? Now I've seen the crossgrade price is stacked on the sale price I NEED IT haha


----------



## Sean

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hahaha, yeah, I actually intended on getting woodwinds first because I've been needing a more comprehensive woodwind lib for years now, but the brass was too tempting.
> 
> So it sounds like the sale runs through November and will probably end December, right? Now I've seen the crossgrade price is stacked on the sale price I NEED IT haha


Yea I believe Aaron said the last day of the sale is the last day of November. I also wanted to get the woodwinds so I could get the best crossgrade price on Strings once those come out too.


----------



## aaronventure

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Aaron, the current sale doesn't stack on top of the crossgrade price does it?


It does. Ends Dec 1.


----------



## Peros

Hey!!! can you guys leave Aaron alone and stop asking him questions plz - he has some strings to be working on  

I"M JOKING OBVIOUSLY!!!


----------



## aaronventure

Peros said:


> Hey!!! can you guys leave Aaron alone and stop asking him questions plz - he has some strings to be working on


Every time I post, Strings get delayed by another mothn


----------



## aaronventure

*month


----------



## Ivan M.

aaronventure said:


> Every time I post, Strings get delayed by another mothn


Moth, haha! The first program bug that caused all software bugs to be called bugs was a moth!


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> *month



Your spelling mistake meant that you had to post again, just to correct yourself. So you basically cost us an extra ****ing month.

Come on man!

Hehe, anyways ... can you give us any view on how Strings are coming along? Would love any insight on what you're learning, what you're excited about ... perhaps even some updated timeframes?


----------



## Ivan M.

Working on a mockup, using Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, and wanted to share the work in progress, because I'm happy with it. 
Still working on it, yet to remove that synthiness, and add more woodwind parts.
That score has way too many notes, and all those transposed instruments! My head hurts!

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Agb-Io3aI4h_lSZ2q2LRmu5GsIxq?e=lhGGUH


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

Ivan M. said:


> Working on a mockup, using Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, and wanted to share the work in progress, because I'm happy with it.
> Still working on it, yet to remove that synthiness, and add more woodwind parts.
> That score has way too many notes, and all those transposed instruments! My head hurts!
> 
> https://1drv.ms/u/s!Agb-Io3aI4h_lSZ2q2LRmu5GsIxq?e=lhGGUH


If you're on Cubase you can use a midi modifier to have all the notes you play transposed, so you can read each line as if it were in C. So for a Bb clarinet, you would set the modifier on the clarinet track to play down 2 semi tones, and then if you play the part the way it's written it will be correct!


----------



## Ivan M.

ChickenAndARoll said:


> If you're on Cubase you can use a midi modifier to have all the notes you play transposed, so you can read each line as if it were in C. So for a Bb clarinet, you would set the modifier on the clarinet track to play down 2 semi tones, and then if you play the part the way it's written it will be correct!


I know, I'm on Reaper, can do anything, but I was just stubborn


----------



## Trash Panda

Reaper has transposition in notation view. Very handy until you’re looking at a John Williams score in concert pitch and wondering why all the transposed instruments sound wrong.


----------



## Jamus

The Serinator said:


> Reaper has transposition in notation view. Very handy until you’re looking at a John Williams score in concert pitch and wondering why all the transposed instruments sound wrong.



That would be a time saver though not doing all the extra brain work 😴


----------



## stfciu

K. Johnston said:


> I am absolutely enamored with Infinite Woodwinds! I have been working on a Jurassic Park mockup for months and finally finished. This library has been a breeze to work with. Then the 2.0 update hit... Phew! The runs are stellar, it's nimble, the tone sounds great in the mix and exposed. I can't thank you enough Aaron for your painstaking dedication to this product.



What brass did you use?


----------



## Ivan M.

Here's the final version of Raiders March mockup, I can't fiddle with it any more, it's good enough, brass needs pitch variation in order not to sound synthy, especially in chords:






Indiana Jones Raiders March [Mockup]


-




vi-control.net


----------



## mikeh-375

...so I was listening and following the score to Britten's 'Prince of the Pagodas' and realised that in order to write in such a manner without programming hassle, the only game in town is Infinite...I am now an official member of this family and downloading.
BTW if anyone hasn't heard Pagodas, I recommend the piece as Britten was a sensational scorer and his trademark musical invention is dazzling in this work.


----------



## Ivan M.

A quick test of woodwinds:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Agb-Io3aI4h_lSgfPK-m1yGi9AxN?e=QCBe2X


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Every time I post, Strings get delayed by another mothn





aaronventure said:


> *month



So guys, two months already only here. Stop asking, I WANT STRINGS!!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Ivan M. said:


> Here's the final version of Raiders March mockup, I can't fiddle with it any more, it's good enough, brass needs pitch variation in order not to sound synthy, especially in chords:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indiana Jones Raiders March [Mockup]
> 
> 
> -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



What do you mean by pitch variation? How much programming did you need to do to get to this point?


----------



## Ivan M.

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What do you mean by pitch variation? How much programming did you need to do to get to this point?



It didn't take that much programming at all! You can find the midi file in that thread. 

I used a breath controller to record dynamics, and added some small pitch CC variations in certain places by hand. So when there's a blast of brass, I added some pitch CC to make the highest note a tiny bit sharper. Also added small pitch variations in longer chords. And that's it, CC 1, pitch CC, and note velocities.

If you listen to live brass, their pitch is not perfectly flat. There's always some bending to the notes. If they play louder, the instrument seems to play a bit sharper, expecially on the strong, attack notes. And when they play in unison, you can hear small variation in the tone, the chorusing/detune effect. 

The problem with out of the box patches is that they are flat, a perfect tone, and that's why they sound synthy sometimes. But, they don't have to, if you introduce some randomness. 

To further improve the sound, I've also added some subtle vibrato with different speeds for all instruments (static, in the instrument settings, not automated with CC), and dynamic EQ ducking 10kHz to control that brass "bite".


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Ivan M. said:


> If you listen to live brass, their pitch is not perfectly flat. There's always some bending to the notes. If they play louder, the instrument seems to play a bit sharper, expecially on the strong, attack notes. And when they play in unison, you can hear small variation in the tone, the chorusing/detune effect.
> 
> The problem with out of the box patches is that they are flat, a perfect tone, and that's why they sound synthy sometimes. But, they don't have to, if you introduce some randomness.



Thanks! Doesn't the humanize function do this though? If not, I wonder if this is something Aaron may want to add automatically in the next update.


----------



## Trash Panda

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks! Doesn't the humanize function do this though? If not, I wonder if this is something Aaron may want to add automatically in the next update.


According to the technical walkthrough videos, the humanize function plays with the start time and velocity only to make ensembles sound more authentic. The pitch bend, note duration, etc. all require user input.


----------



## Ivan M.

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks! Doesn't the humanize function do this though? If not, I wonder if this is something Aaron may want to add automatically in the next update.



Just checked, humanize - note velocity and timing only. However, attack accuracy, does the detuning thing, when brought all the way down, and it's random, so it helps. But, on blast notes, I want it to always go sharper. 
I don't usually read manuals! RTFM was made for people like me haha :D


----------



## Minsky

pipedr said:


> I've been following the Woodwinds videos, and have been very tempted to purchase. I'm also very impressed by the developer and how he responds to concerns. For example, one thing I missed in the flutes was that breathy sound with the vibrato. With the update, I thought that sounded much better. Also, the free updates are impressive, as several instruments have already been added, and there might be ethnic winds added as well, as mentioned in other threads.
> 
> Cory Pelizzari did an excellent review of the woodwinds, commenting especially on the excellent consistency:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Library Spotlight - Infinite Woodwinds
> 
> 
> Get it here: https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-woodwinds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really interested in the saxophones in particular, which I think really benefit from the smooth dynamic changes and controllable growl compared to the conventionally sampled approach. Plus, I like the sound and the attack better than the demos I've heard from SWAM, for example.
> 
> What's held me back is what I already own: OT Berlin Woodwinds and 8dio Claire, as well as my own workflow and limitations. The soundstage tools and IR reverb sound very good to me, and it seems pretty easy to switch from a studio to hall to scoring stage sound. However, nothing beats recording in a real hall, and I must say I love the sound of flute long notes, or bassoon shorts, etc. bouncing around at Teldex. Also, I'm a keyboard player and not a woodwind player, so at this point, I don't think I could beat the players in those libraries, even with complete control of vibrato and dynamics. With Claire, for example, I'll select one or another of the arcs or legatos, and think--oh, that's really nice, but there's no way I would have thought of playing the notes that way or even maybe even comprehend the difference in what the sampled player is doing.
> 
> And then, there's a few things that maybe don't really matter in the mix, but the trill on the clarinet (as heard in the Gershwin example) sounds good to me, and not synthesized or choppy. BUT...it doesn't have that wooshy flutter of a real or sampled clarinet doing a trill (real clarinet players, help me out here to identify what I'm trying to describe...). And that high note---not quite the strength there that you might get in, say, the Fluffy Audio clarinet--so I suppose in the end, you are a bit limited by what the sampled player can play.
> 
> I think the developer has done something new and very interesting in this series, though, so a big Black Friday sale might push me over the fence.
> 
> Another tactic which might work could be to release a freebie--for example, I bought Century Brass based on the strength of the freebie legato brass patches.



Really interesting points. Btw do you like Century Brass? Worth getting?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

How is the low brass with Infinite Brass? How would it compare to something like JXL in terms of power and force?


----------



## shawnsingh

Compared to JXL is a difficult comparison.

Infinite low brass can be just as powerful, but takes some thought and effort to get the right sounds from it.

For traditional brass power, CC1 needs to be done carefully to sculpt attacks correctly, i.e. to control how/when the power brightness appears in the note, and uniquely for each instrument. But when that's done right, it can sound very superb in my opinion.

For modern/hybrid brass power, I haven't tried infinite brass, but it certainly has the dynamic range and the instruments, so seems like it could be capable of a hybrid epic sound. The powerful bright overtones on many of the low brass seem to happen at higher frequencies than other libraries, which could be something to consider in this context.

Compared to JXL, I think the real question would be about the tone and the workflow that someone prefers. IB would likely require more mixing effort, but at the same time it also has different venue IRs and positional IRs to help with that. JXL would require key switching, but has the polyswitch to help make combi patches.

If all you want are braaams, either would be good with reverb and a synth layered on top.


----------



## tabulius

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How is the low brass with Infinite Brass? How would it compare to something like JXL in terms of power and force?



There is something about JXL low-end brass that I still like and feel adds to the Infinite. I like how loud shorts bounce from the walls and you still can't simulate that perfectly with artificial reverbs imo. Some cases Infinite brass will do just fine and there is a nice fat low-end in tuba, cimbassos and bass trombones. I tried boosting it even more with eq, and low end power is there. That can't be said of Sample modeling brass. For me personally, sometimes I like to blend the JXL to hype the low-end even more and as I said, the Teldex stage is heard from the shorts in a way that adds to the 3d space.

I'm currently putting Infinite brass and woodwinds into an ultimate test and I'm doing a mockup of Star Trek theme. Even there I added the JXL bass trombones and solo trombone to the mix to give it a little extra something.

EDIT: And I just remembered I tried to build a 12-horn ensemble with Infinite that filled the whole stage. It sounded huge! You really can build ridiculous 6-cimbasso / 6-bass trombones ensembles with this for a more hyped sound.


----------



## Fox

I'm the proud new owner of the bundle! Just gave the woodwinds and brass a quick walk through, and wow, I'm surprised just how good it sounds. I was debating between this and Berlin WW as my big BF purchase, and decided I really needed libraries that are easy to write lines with (and light on CPU), so I figured I'd be taking a bit of a hit with sound quality. Perhaps that is true, but it is so fun to write lines with these libraries. Nice!!!!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Fox said:


> I'm the proud new owner of the bundle! Just gave the woodwinds and brass a quick walk through, and wow, I'm surprised just how good it sounds. I was debating between this and Berlin WW as my big BF purchase, and decided I really needed libraries that are easy to write lines with (and light on CPU), so I figured I'd be taking a bit of a hit with sound quality. Perhaps that is true, but it is so fun to write lines with these libraries. Nice!!!!



I think I'm about to join you. Still wish there were more reviews and/or demos.


----------



## Nextmidi

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Still wish there were more reviews and/or demos.


We can help with that.

In case you're wondering about mixing with other libraries and a larger orchestral setting:


Brass and woodwinds here are 100% Infinite Series. Loving the new flute especially!


----------



## I like music

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I think I'm about to join you. Still wish there were more reviews and/or demos.



You should make a demo :D
I believe you have signed up to Leo's course, right? I think he's a fan of IW and IB and has used them in at least something, but I could be wrong.
If anything, it could help you with the course


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Nextmidi said:


> We can help with that.
> 
> In case you're wondering about mixing with other libraries and a larger orchestral setting:
> 
> 
> Brass and woodwinds here are 100% Infinite Series. Loving the new flute especially!




Incredible! Thanks for sharing. How much did you tweak the default sound if I may ask?

Also, your desk and keyboard integration is a dream.


----------



## Nextmidi

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How much did you tweak the default sound if I may ask?


There's actually almost no external processing and very little in-the-box tweaking.
The instruments are all set to Mixed Mic 3 to save on CPU (playing a template like that live with a low buffer size is pretty brutal) and some adjustments to the humanization value, because Divisimate does some of that in an ensemble context. So lowered that value for the "supporting" players, and turned it on for the leading players, so everyone in the orchestra can be equally "wrong". 
The only thing outside of Kontakt was some reverb to get everything to blend and some light limiting on the master.

So all in all for the Infinite instruments this is actually pretty close to out-of-the-box sound. The same is true for our infinite brass video we posted a couple weeks ago.
These instruments are just really really good.


----------



## pierrevigneron

With the reduction I hesitate to take the leap with Divisimate but what a disappointment not to have a trial version. This is the kind of tool that for me could prove to be disappointing or on the contrary quite miraculous


----------



## Fox

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I think I'm about to join you. Still wish there were more reviews and/or demos.


I wished the same, but I took the plunge anyways. Frankly, the demos didn't wow me. They were good, mind you, but not AWESOME (imo).

But what did make a huge impression on me was the many people exclaiming (throughout many threads here on VI, and one one excellent YouTube video also linked above) the virtues of being able to "play" or "perform" lines with these libraries. My brief explorations have confirmed this, though I need to have a lot more experience with these libraries.

Regardless, if I find myself needing or wanting better sounds, I can go buy those later, but in the meantime, these libraries will still sound very, very good (if not great at times), and more important, I will so enjoy writing pieces with them. And that is what I want to be doing....writing!!!!!


----------



## skythemusic

I am wondering if there will be a better discount for the whole package once the strings come out.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Yesterday I had to watch almost all of the divisimate videos. The interesting functions plus the reduction make me really hesitate ... I have a few questions for those who have this plug or for Netxmidi member:
1 - If I save a divisimate preset that distributes notes to channels 1, 2, 3 and 4 in a string quartet project and reuse that preset in a symphonic project, I imagine that obviously Divisimate is wrong " look for "the four tracks of my quartet in the whole orchestra?
2 - Is it possible to go further into the details of humanization: for example assign the "CC val" only to my dynamic and to my vibrato deph
3 - Can we use several instances of Divisimate in a project (1 per subgroups Strings, woodwinds, brass etc ...)
4- Isn't there a way to automatically retrieve the name of the tracks corresponding to the channel (it's a bit painful to have to rename everything manually)
Thank you very much to those who will take the time to answer me


----------



## LionLeo120

I seem to find a bug, not sure if anyone mentioned it before. I buy IW for my very first woodwind library, and I surely love the sound, legato and flexible control of IW.
But when I turn on the "Neighbour RR" and play notes wider than 8va, it will randomly turn out to be upper or lower half notes. Wanna know that is this a bug or a real design of nature instruments?


----------



## aaronventure

LionLeo120 said:


> Wanna know that is this a bug


It's a bug. And a pretty funny one at that, because I fixed something similar in one of the previous brass updates and now it's creeping up again, but only on octave+ legato. I'll look into it, thanks.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

LionLeo120 said:


> I seem to find a bug, not sure if anyone mentioned it before. I buy IW for my very first woodwind library, and I surely love the sound, legato and flexible control of IW.
> But when I turn on the "Neighbour RR" and play notes wider than 8va, it will randomly turn out to be upper or lower half notes. Wanna know that is this a bug or a real design of nature instruments?



You're right, it's a bug. When doing legato of an octave or more, it will not pitch the notes correctly and play the Neighbouring RRs in their original pitch.

For now, just avoid doing larger intervals for the legato and you should be fine, or turn off the Neighbour RR. With this library, I see very little point in using Neighbouring RRs except for maybe trills, but a bug is a bug.

I actually have a _*very *_short list of bugs and features I would like to see, but I will wait until at least strings (preferably percussion as well) are released before negging him about it. I think Aaron is going to need some long-deserved rest before going for another round of updates, and I also think he will learn a lot by doing strings that will carry over to the other products in the series.

Edit: I see Aaron already answered, but I'm posting this anyway. If you're going to make a quick fix for the Neighoubouring RR you could also look into the un-pitched release for Neighbour RR. Not sure if this is present in any other instruments but definitely in my version of the Clarinet 1.


----------



## aaronventure

Jonathan Moray said:


> When doing legato of an octave or more, it will not pitch the notes correctly and play the Neighbouring RRs in their original pitch.


It appears to be affecting the flutes only.



Jonathan Moray said:


> rest


haha



Jonathan Moray said:


> If you're going to make a quick fix for the Neighoubouring RR you could also look into the un-pitched release for Neighbour RR. Not sure if this is present in any other instruments but definitely in my version of the Clarinet 1.


That's even more interesting.


----------



## Trash Panda

@aaronventure in your opinion, what is a practical limit on how fast of a trill can be played on the woodwinds?

I was mocking up a piece that called for 32nd trills at a tempo of 108 and the flutes handled it pretty well, but the oboes sounded... funny.


----------



## aaronventure

aaronventure said:


> bugs


Alright, I figured out the causes for both. Fixed in the next update, cheers guys. 



The Serinator said:


> I was mocking up a piece that called for 32nd trills at a tempo of 108 and the flutes handled it pretty well, but the oboes sounded... funny.


Varying trill note velocities helps. Don't even try doing it live, it's much easier to pull up the MIDI editor afterwards and just randomize them somewhat.


----------



## LionLeo120

aaronventure said:


> It's a bug. And a pretty funny one at that, because I fixed something similar in one of the previous brass updates and now it's creeping up again, but only on octave+ legato. I'll look into it, thanks.


Thanks for replying! I'm very satisfied with the quality of your library and I'm recommended Infinite Series to my friends now haha. Hopes to see more product from your hands!


----------



## LionLeo120

Jonathan Moray said:


> I think Aaron is going to need some long-deserved rest before going for another round of updates, and I also think he will learn a lot by doing strings that will carry over to the other products in the series.


Totally agree with you. This library can keep me studying for a long time.


----------



## tabulius

Here is my mockup of Star Trek (The Next Generation) Main Titles. Brass and WW is Infinite. I doubled Infinite with BB solo trumpet, JXL solo trombone, and bass trombones. Strings are CSS and CSSS, doubled with Bohemian Violin, Ark1 slurred shorts for runs & Cornucopia strings. Perc is Cinesamples.

I had a lot of fun with this. This was actually my first "real mockup" so it was a challenge. Surely this is not a 1:1 perfect copy of the original, but I think I got around 70-80% there and I'm happy with the result. Infinite was really great making this happen with all the divisi writing going on.

EDIT: I wanted to make a few mixing tweaks and I also uploaded this track to Youtube. Check it out!


----------



## Trash Panda

tabulius said:


> Here is my mockup of Star Trek (The Next Generation) Main Titles. Brass and WW is Infinite. I doubled Infinite with BB solo trumpet, JXL solo trombone, and bass trombones. Strings are CSS and CSSS, doubled with Bohemian Violin, Ark1 slurred shorts for runs & Cornucopia strings. Perc is Cinesamples.
> 
> I had a lot of fun with this. This was actually my first "real mockup" so it was a challenge. Surely this is not a 1:1 perfect copy of the original, but I think I got around 70-80% there and I'm happy with the result. Infinite was really great making this happen with all the divisi writing going on.


Ahh, childhood memories sitting on the floor of the living room as the whole family gathered to watch. Great job! 

The staccato notes seem just a tiny BIT too short to my ears, but that's probably 30 years of time muddying the memories.

Edit:30 years. Not 20. Holy crap.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

tabulius said:


> Here is my mockup of Star Trek (The Next Generation) Main Titles. Brass and WW is Infinite. I doubled Infinite with BB solo trumpet, JXL solo trombone, and bass trombones. Strings are CSS and CSSS, doubled with Bohemian Violin, Ark1 slurred shorts for runs & Cornucopia strings. Perc is Cinesamples.
> 
> I had a lot of fun with this. This was actually my first "real mockup" so it was a challenge. Surely this is not a 1:1 perfect copy of the original, but I think I got around 70-80% there and I'm happy with the result. Infinite was really great making this happen with all the divisi writing going on.


Is that theme not one of the greatest TV/movie themes ever made? 😂Love it.


----------



## Sean

This is still a work in progress and I'm still an amateur when it comes to orchestral programming but I'm having a lot of fun with the Infinite Series.

Strings are SSS, percussion is True Strike + 8dio Dhols.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I absolutely love this library for creating clusters and swells. Can create such brooding, creepy textures with it. Add very slight shifts with pitch wheel and it sounds so good.


----------



## VVEremita

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I absolutely love this library for creating clusters and swells. Can create such brooding, creepy textures with it. Add very slight shifts with pitch wheel and it sounds so good.



Isn't that stunning? All my orchestral FX libraries going out of business. Well, some at least.

Especially the brass can do so much. I revisit Albion IV just to reproduce these clusters by myself, finally. .

Then I look at comprehensive libraries like Spitfire Studio Brass and I see that I have it all in one patch with Infinite Brass. I can intuitively do anything I want with the Infinite Series, apart from my truly eclectic extended articulation needs like air noises, multiphonics or key click tremolos for winds 

I am really curious on how complete Infinite Strings will be in that regard.


----------



## DANIELE

For the track I promised to post I didn't forget, I need some more time because I'm working on the mastering but I will do it.


----------



## DANIELE

tabulius said:


> Here is my mockup of Star Trek (The Next Generation) Main Titles. Brass and WW is Infinite. I doubled Infinite with BB solo trumpet, JXL solo trombone, and bass trombones. Strings are CSS and CSSS, doubled with Bohemian Violin, Ark1 slurred shorts for runs & Cornucopia strings. Perc is Cinesamples.
> 
> I had a lot of fun with this. This was actually my first "real mockup" so it was a challenge. Surely this is not a 1:1 perfect copy of the original, but I think I got around 70-80% there and I'm happy with the result. Infinite was really great making this happen with all the divisi writing going on.



Very well done, I like it. What did you use for the harp?


----------



## shawnsingh

Surprised no one has done this yet? Infinite is just screaming to do excerpts like this... (attached)

I checked a few different clips on youtube, seems like there's some different interpretaitons of whether to do staccato or slurs in some places. The vibrato was in every performance though.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Ok, I grabbed the bundle in the end - partially as an investment / encouragement in Aaron's continued advancement of sampled instruments! I've only briefly dabbled with it so a few "out of the box" observations about Infinite Brass so far (need to dive into IW more):

- Definitely a different tone to JXL, CineBrass, CSB. Not sure I would say it wows you in the same way, tonally, as something like Sonore or JXL. Could be due to the IRs included.
- Something like JXL has this clarity to it without getting overly harsh or bright in the top end. IB seems quite sensitive in the upper half of the mod wheel range in terms of getting very bright very quickly. At least it does get bright, unlike CineBrass's Solo Horn.
- IB instruments are SO quiet. I have to add 6db of gain to get them into the same range as the other brass libraries. Not a huge issue since their noise floor is low, but I wonder why they don't come louder out of the box.
- The "simulated" ensemble sound is not bad - wish there was pre-made patches but I guess you can do that on your own. I also wish this was a Kontakt Player library so it could show up nicely in the left tab.
- Playability-wise, it certainly is very flexible. I wouldn't say something like JXL or CSB have bad legato though - they don't and are also pretty easy to program after the fact. The nice thing about IB is you have great control over the attacks and vibrato (along with growl and flutter) - which other libraries do not give you.
- Yes, it is easy to play trills vs. other libraries (only CSB has it recorded from what I can tell). The CSB recorded trills do sound similar to IB's so, that's great. The question is how often will I need to use these special techniques in day to day writing (probably not often). Double and triple tonguing though is quite easy to play on IB, which is handy if you need that.

Few initial questions:
- Is there a way to remap the C8 soft re-tongue feature?
- How do I play articulations like a fall or a rip? I tried a variety of things on the keyboard but couldn't get it.


----------



## Jamus

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ok, I grabbed the bundle in the end - partially as an investment / encouragement in Aaron's continued advancement of sampled instruments! I've only briefly dabbled with it so a few "out of the box" observations about Infinite Brass so far (need to dive into IW more):
> 
> - Definitely a different tone to JXL, CineBrass, CSB. Not sure I would say it wows you in the same way, tonally, as something like Sonore or JXL. Could be due to the IRs included.
> - Something like JXL has this clarity to it without getting overly harsh or bright in the top end. IB seems quite sensitive in the upper half of the mod wheel range in terms of getting very bright very quickly. At least it does get bright, unlike CineBrass's Solo Horn.
> - IB instruments are SO quiet. I have to add 6db of gain to get them into the same range as the other brass libraries. Not a huge issue since their noise floor is low, but I wonder why they don't come louder out of the box.
> - The "simulated" ensemble sound is not bad - wish there was pre-made patches but I guess you can do that on your own. I also wish this was a Kontakt Player library so it could show up nicely in the left tab.
> - Playability-wise, it certainly is very flexible. I wouldn't say something like JXL or CSB have bad legato though - they don't and are also pretty easy to program after the fact. The nice thing about IB is you have great control over the attacks and vibrato (along with growl and flutter) - which other libraries do not give you.
> - Yes, it is easy to play trills vs. other libraries (only CSB has it recorded from what I can tell). The CSB recorded trills do sound similar to IB's so, that's great. The question is how often will I need to use these special techniques in day to day writing (probably not often). Double and triple tonguing though is quite easy to play on IB, which is handy if you need that.
> 
> Few initial questions:
> - Is there a way to remap the C8 soft re-tongue feature?
> - How do I play articulations like a fall or a rip? I tried a variety of things on the keyboard but couldn't get it.



Around 90-100 on IB is about where you'll find Berlin Brass gets to in terms of the high end brass buzz. It's nice to have that extra savagery just incase 😂 I agree of the sensitive touch as you reach the higher range. This can be overcome just by getting used to the instruments. Oh and also adjusting the volume range so that the instruments don't reach total silence also alleviates some of the feeling of sensitivity and quietness!

The "humanize" settings for any non section leader works fairly well, though it leads to hung notes alot form me? I recommend a plugin by the Cable Guys called MidiShaper. It's a CC automating plugin that allows you to add tempo synced or Hertz speed LFOs to MIDI CCs. While it's best to edit each individual instrument as if it were a real player, setting some continuous automation to vibrato speed/depth, pitch or whatever in order to create a sense of random movement between say all 6 horns can break the monotony. Admittedly not the ideal solution but fun nonetheless. Also it's a blast for other things like setting a dynamic swell pattern and playing with two hands for those who don't have an expression pedal or breath controller!


----------



## tabulius

DANIELE said:


> Very well done, I like it. What did you use for the harp?



Thanks! The harp was Cinesamples. Today I did a quick mix tweak and I'll upload the final track walkthrough to Youtube. I'll post the link into my earlier post when I'm done, if you are interested in seeing messy unreadable midi data :D


----------



## I like music

tabulius said:


> Thanks! The harp was Cinesamples. Today I did a quick mix tweak and I'll upload the final track walkthrough to Youtube. I'll post the link into my earlier post when I'm done, if you are interested in seeing messy unreadable midi data :D


Fantastic, loved it!

I'm currently trying to match my IW and IB to my CSS. However, due to RAM limitations, I can only stick with the Mix mic on CSS. What sort of mic mix did you use here? I liked the clarity.

And did you chuck any or much reverb on CSS?

Nice performance by the way!


----------



## tabulius

I like music said:


> Fantastic, loved it!
> 
> I'm currently trying to match my IW and IB to my CSS. However, due to RAM limitations, I can only stick with the Mix mic on CSS. What sort of mic mix did you use here? I liked the clarity.
> 
> And did you chuck any or much reverb on CSS?
> 
> Nice performance by the way!



My limits were not RAM but CPU. With only brass and strings my CPU was peaking over 80% and audio was cracking. So I composed using CSS close mics only, but when started mixing, I included the main mics with the close. No room mics this time on CSS. I only used one master reverb, Seventh Heaven Berlin hall for everything.

Edit: And the Bohemian violin doubling does wonders. I like using it with CSS.


----------



## I like music

tabulius said:


> My limits were not RAM but CPU. With only brass and strings my CPU was peaking over 80% and audio was cracking. So I composed using CSS close mics only, but when started mixing, I included the main mics with the close. No room mics this time on CSS. I only used one master reverb, Seventh Heaven Berlin hall for everything.
> 
> Edit: And the Bohemian violin doubling does wonders. I like using it with CSS.



Great! I'm starting to throw in SM solo violin into my ensemble lines. Helps a lot!
Thanks for the tips and once again, nice work.


----------



## Pantonal

I was reading the CSW thread (I have CSS, CSSS and CSB) when I saw AV IW for $299. I looked at the included instruments 3 flutes plus piccolo, alto and bass flute, and that diversity extended throughout the woodwinds (3 clarinets, plus Eb, bass and contrabass clarinet). I'd never heard of a bass oboe, but it's in there. Finally, the entire range of saxophones is in there as well. So I bought it downloaded and installed IW and really enjoyed the sound of my initial noodlings. Prior to this my woodwinds were a grab bag of HOW, 8DiOboe, Sonokinetic (ensemble woods) and Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Ensembles. That's all admittedly crap so perhaps my perspective is tarnished but nothing I heard from OT or SA really convinced me to part with my hard earned cash. Yesterday I saw the Berlin Woods for $349 and then AV for $299. I listened and compared and made a choice to part with my Black Friday budget. Later this morning I'll replace all the woods in my symphony with IW and see how well the programming holds up.


----------



## PerryD

Maybe one too many biscuits as well. Just some random writing with IB.


----------



## Jamus

Pantonal said:


> I was reading the CSW thread (I have CSS, CSSS and CSB) when I saw AV IW for $299. I looked at the included instruments 3 flutes plus piccolo, alto and bass flute, and that diversity extended throughout the woodwinds (3 clarinets, plus Eb, bass and contrabass clarinet). I'd never heard of a bass oboe, but it's in there. Finally, the entire range of saxophones is in there as well. So I bought it downloaded and installed IW and really enjoyed the sound of my initial noodlings. Prior to this my woodwinds were a grab bag of HOW, 8DiOboe, Sonokinetic (ensemble woods) and Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Ensembles. That's all admittedly crap so perhaps my perspective is tarnished but nothing I heard from OT or SA really convinced me to part with my hard earned cash. Yesterday I saw the Berlin Woods for $349 and then AV for $299. I listened and compared and made a choice to part with my Black Friday budget. Later this morning I'll replace all the woods in my symphony with IW and see how well the programming holds up.



Now that I have IW and IB I would happily return my Berlin stuff 😂 and 48gb of RAM I no longer need.. 🤣🤣


----------



## aaronventure

Jamus said:


> 48gb of RAM I no longer need



At least you can now browse in Chrome and have your template open at the same time.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

@aaronventure A few initial questions for Infinite Brass if possible:
- Is there a way to remap the C8 soft re-tongue feature? Say to the sustain pedal?
- How do I play articulations like a fall or a rip? I tried a variety of things on the keyboard but couldn't get it.


----------



## pipedr

Minsky said:


> Really interesting points. Btw do you like Century Brass? Worth getting?


I really like Century Brass. From VSL SE, I first got Samplemodeling. Those are great instruments with the trumpet the standout. They can handle many different lines without the note transition artifacts you can get with sampled libraries, and they handle dynamics really well. However, I never felt that I could get them to sound like an ensemble in a real hall. There's something about multiple brass instruments bouncing around in a hall that is very different from multiple instances of a solo instrument. Century Brass gives that to me; now I mostly use that library, and go to Samplemodeling for any particularly challenging trumpet line, or to layer.


----------



## DANIELE

Jamus said:


> Now that I have IW and IB I would happily return my Berlin stuff 😂 and 48gb of RAM I no longer need.. 🤣🤣



Well, I have 128 GB of RAM and now I barely use a little part of it.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> browse


Only need one tab open, and that's the Infinite Strings page. Not much RAM needed for this activity.


----------



## HereGiam

I've just bought both IW and IB a couple of days ago and I'm really enjoying learning how to use them.

I'm very much a beginner, so one paw on the keyboard with the mod wheel for CC1 is about my limit. But I do want to have more control on the vibrato, so could I ask for collective advice on how best to control it please.

I'm trying to record concentrating on the phrasing and rhythm using CC1 to follow how the player would breathe. I can then correct individual note mistakes in the MIDI. I can also adjust velocity in the MIDI editor if I feel a note has too much or too little attack.

But when I watch Aaron's walkthrough videos, I often see both vibrato sliders moving continuously. And from downloading the MIDI of his examples, there is a lot of automation on CC20 and CC21. Has this all been drawn in manually later? Or recorded over the top afterwards? (I use Logic so I think this is possible.).

I appreciate any help! Whilst I'm really asking how Aaron did this in his examples, I don't want to direct a question specifically to him and be responsible for Strings being delayed a month


----------



## Tonda

HereGiam said:


> I've just bought both IW and IB a couple of days ago and I'm really enjoying learning how to use them.
> 
> I'm very much a beginner, so one paw on the keyboard with the mod wheel for CC1 is about my limit. But I do want to have more control on the vibrato, so could I ask for collective advice on how best to control it please.
> 
> I'm trying to record concentrating on the phrasing and rhythm using CC1 to follow how the player would breathe. I can then correct individual note mistakes in the MIDI. I can also adjust velocity in the MIDI editor if I feel a note has too much or too little attack.
> 
> But when I watch Aaron's walkthrough videos, I often see both vibrato sliders moving continuously. And from downloading the MIDI of his examples, there is a lot of automation on CC20 and CC21. Has this all been drawn in manually later? Or recorded over the top afterwards? (I use Logic so I think this is possible.).
> 
> I appreciate any help! Whilst I'm really asking how Aaron did this in his examples, I don't want to direct a question specifically to him and be responsible for Strings being delayed a month



Congratulations with these fabulous libraries!

Aaron uses a Leap Motion controller with GecoMidi software and controls CC1, CC21 and CC20 together with movements of his left hand. I have the same controller and got his settings. 

However, I also use a breath controller and that works even better with wind instruments. 

Of course you can always draw in these values later manually. Actually, if I really want the best realistic sound I always correct these values manually.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I had to get the woodwinds while the cross grade and the sale discounts stacked. I've been waiting to buy a woodwind library for about 3 years. I just want to say how much I love the bass clarinet and bassoons. I always wanted to add more decorative, fast phrases (the sort of stuff you hear in Jurassic Park etc) but Cinewinds could never do it because of the sluggish legato. 

The only part that I'm not that into are the flutes. Something about the transition sounds a bit strange. Like there's a very, very slight bend in pitch whenever it transitions to the next note. I don't know how to explain it. But if you really exaggerate the modwheel for every transition, it sounds a lot better.

Love these libraries.


----------



## aaronventure

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Is there a way to remap the C8 soft re-tongue feature? Say to the sustain pedal?


You can remap it with a factory multiscript called Change Keys.

But to map it to the sustain pedal... You'd need to write a multiscript for that, if there already isn't one floating around somewhere. Essentially you want the script to send MIDI to C8 after it detects a change in CC64 from 63 or less to 64 or more, that way it only triggers when you press it. Unless you're also gonna have a sort of delay/window which lets you not press the pedal all the way down (if your pedal is actually an expression pedal, that is) and detect the value of the controller between 64 and 127 when it closes, you're only gonna have access to one velocity value, and the re-tongue has 127 different speeds.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> How do I play articulations like a fall or a rip? I tried a variety of things on the keyboard but couldn't get it.


It's usually easier to sequence these. Overlapping notes in short succession along with a crescendo or diminuendo in CC1. Try varying the velocity there. Alternatively (and this you definitely need to sequence), don't have them overlapping but ending just short of the next note, and this way you can control the roughness of each note as you're not triggering the legato part of the script, but each note actually starts individually and velocity determines how strong the attack is.



HereGiam said:


> I don't want to direct a question specifically to him and be responsible for Strings being delayed a month


Too late! Btw, you can always send me an email via the website, I don't have temporal charges for emails 

I'm using a Leap Motion controller which lets me control up to 5 parameters at once. A breath controller also works. You can also just set the vibrato to a fixed amount and draw it in later. You can also map it to Aftertouch with the Transformer multiscript (top right corner KSP > Presets > Factory > Transform > Transformer)


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I had to get the woodwinds while the cross grade and the sale discounts stacked. I've been waiting to buy a woodwind library for about 3 years. I just want to say how much I love the bass clarinet and bassoons. I always wanted to add more decorative, fast phrases (the sort of stuff you hear in Jurassic Park etc) but Cinewinds could never do it because of the sluggish legato.
> 
> The only part that I'm not that into are the flutes. Something about the transition sounds a bit strange. Like there's a very, very slight bend in pitch whenever it transitions to the next note. I don't know how to explain it. But if you really exaggerate the modwheel for every transition, it sounds a lot better.
> 
> Love these libraries.



Try lower velocity values on the flute. The exaggeration disappears in this sort of goldilocks zone, I believe.


----------



## I like music

I'm not far from finishing The Enterprise mockup, using IB, IW and CSS (+SM strings). But then this is the part that often takes the longest. IW performs really well.


----------



## SirKen

aaronventure said:


> You can remap it with a factory multiscript called Change Keys.
> 
> But to map it to the sustain pedal... You'd need to write a multiscript for that, if there already isn't one floating around somewhere. Essentially you want the script to send MIDI to C8 after it detects a change in CC64 from 63 or less to 64 or more, that way it only triggers when you press it. Unless you're also gonna have a sort of delay/window which lets you not press the pedal all the way down (if your pedal is actually an expression pedal, that is) and detect the value of the controller between 64 and 127 when it closes, you're only gonna have access to one velocity value, and the re-tongue has 127 different speeds.



I think throwing one of the pizmidi plugins in front of the Kontakt instruments can also accomplish this in a much easier way. I believe MidiCCModulator might be the right one to use in this case.

Here is a quick index of pizmidi plugins:








KVR Forum: Piz MIDI Plugins - Insert Piz Here Forum


KVR Audio Forum - Piz MIDI Plugins - Insert Piz Here Forum




www.kvraudio.com





Here is the updated download link:





Google Code Archive - Long-term storage for Google Code Project Hosting.







code.google.com


----------



## Mikro93

stfciu said:


> Thank you. If anyone have either CB or Century Brass could you please post your example? Pretty please


So.

I wish I could afford IB right now. But pandemic, job got delayed, blah blah. I'm OK, though 

It just so happens that Century Brass Solo bundle was insanely cheap, and I've wanted it for years, so I chipped in and got it.

Here is a very quick version of the Star Wars line (hi @pierrevigneron !). I used two track per instrument, but it's actually staccatissimo stacked with sustains. Not ideal, you have to match the crossfades, and I'm not a fan of the dip I've implemented, but it is something. I've EQ'ed the bass out and the highs way up. Valhalla Room on a send channel.

The crossfades are not the smoothest, and I briefly tried to add a filter to it, but I can do better. I find it lacks a bit in the cuivre register - one would say that the loudest dynamics are not Century Brass'... _forte_.

Enjoy!


----------



## D Halgren

Tonda said:


> Congratulations with these fabulous libraries!
> 
> Aaron uses a Leap Motion controller with GecoMidi software and controls CC1, CC21 and CC20 together with movements of his left hand. I have the same controller and got his settings.
> 
> However, I also use a breath controller and that works even better with wind instruments.
> 
> Of course you can always draw in these values later manually. Actually, if I really want the best realistic sound I always correct these values manually.


I'm just buying a Tec BBC2 for these libraries and was wondering, can you just control the vibrato with the breath? How about the flutter? I mean by actually breathing correctly for those techniques with the breath input set to cc1, not through sending out certain cc's. I was thinking of putting the growl on the bite. Anybody have any thoughts on these?


----------



## aaronventure

D Halgren said:


> can you just control the vibrato with the breath?


Playable Vibrato is enabled by default (the play icon on the right side), and the script will monitor your CC1 pattern and when it detects you're playing a vibrato-like pattern (sine motions), it will start to apply pitch changes to it as well. This was always a bit experimental, and it's gotten better with the recent updates. It'll get even better in the next update (it'll fire more quickly and more reliably). 

Right now, I would still suggest using the Vibrato Depth control, as that's 100% reliable. If you're using a breath controller, your left hand is free and you can use the modwheel/another controller for that. Also BBC2 has head tilt (if I'm not wrong), so you can see how you feel about controlling vib depth/rate with tilt.

There's a bit more to flutter than just oscillation of CC1, so I'd definitely recommend the Flutter slider for it.


----------



## D Halgren

aaronventure said:


> Playable Vibrato is enabled by default (the play icon on the right side), and the script will monitor your CC1 pattern and when it detects you're playing a vibrato-like pattern (sine motions), it will start to apply pitch changes to it as well. This was always a bit experimental, and it's gotten better with the recent updates. It'll get even better in the next update (it'll fire more quickly and more reliably).
> 
> Right now, I would still suggest using the Vibrato Depth control, as that's 100% reliable. If you're using a breath controller, your left hand is free and you can use the modwheel/another controller for that. Also BBC2 has head tilt (if I'm not wrong), so you can see how you feel about controlling vib depth/rate with tilt.
> 
> There's a bit more to flutter than just oscillation of CC1, so I'd definitely recommend the Flutter slider for it.


Thanks Aaron, great information! Cheers!


----------



## Tonda

D Halgren said:


> I'm just buying a Tec BBC2 for these libraries and was wondering, can you just control the vibrato with the breath? How about the flutter? I mean by actually breathing correctly for those techniques with the breath input set to cc1, not through sending out certain cc's. I was thinking of putting the growl on the bite. Anybody have any thoughts on these?


I have the TEC BBC2. It lets you control up to 4 parameters at once. Beside breath, it has a bite, nod and tilt function.

Breath is set to standard value CC2 (remap dynamics to CC2). I use bite for Vibrato intensity. Nod to Vibrato rate and Tilt for growl or flutter. But you still can use your modulation weel (CC1) for vibrato control.


----------



## Laptoprabbit

D Halgren said:


> I'm just buying a Tec BBC2 for these libraries and was wondering, can you just control the vibrato with the breath? How about the flutter? I mean by actually breathing correctly for those techniques with the breath input set to cc1, not through sending out certain cc's. I was thinking of putting the growl on the bite. Anybody have any thoughts on these?



Sorry to go off topic - was thinking to get one for Infinite as well, but was wondering if anyone had experience with the US shipping?


----------



## Trash Panda

HereGiam said:


> I've just bought both IW and IB a couple of days ago and I'm really enjoying learning how to use them.
> 
> I'm very much a beginner, so one paw on the keyboard with the mod wheel for CC1 is about my limit. But I do want to have more control on the vibrato, so could I ask for collective advice on how best to control it please.
> 
> I'm trying to record concentrating on the phrasing and rhythm using CC1 to follow how the player would breathe. I can then correct individual note mistakes in the MIDI. I can also adjust velocity in the MIDI editor if I feel a note has too much or too little attack.
> 
> But when I watch Aaron's walkthrough videos, I often see both vibrato sliders moving continuously. And from downloading the MIDI of his examples, there is a lot of automation on CC20 and CC21. Has this all been drawn in manually later? Or recorded over the top afterwards? (I use Logic so I think this is possible.).
> 
> I appreciate any help! Whilst I'm really asking how Aaron did this in his examples, I don't want to direct a question specifically to him and be responsible for Strings being delayed a month


There is a playable vibrato button that is normally on by default. Jiggle the mod wheel while playing and the vibrato will react accordingly.


----------



## D Halgren

Laptoprabbit said:


> Sorry to go off topic - was thinking to get one for Infinite as well, but was wondering if anyone had experience with the US shipping?


I just ordered mine yesterday, but they already shipped today, and gave me tracking. So, I would say, so far, so good! It's UPS.


----------



## brianapp

D Halgren said:


> I just ordered mine yesterday, but they already shipped today, and gave me tracking. So, I would say, so far, so good! It's UPS.


Bought one a couple of months ago, it came (to Canada) in a few days.


----------



## HereGiam

Tonda said:


> I have the TEC BBC2. It lets you control up to 4 parameters at once. Beside breath, it has a bite, nod and tilt function.
> 
> Breath is set to standard value CC2 (remap dynamics to CC2). I use bite for Vibrato intensity. Nod to Vibrato rate and Tilt for growl or flutter. But you still can use your modulation weel (CC1) for vibrato control.


Thank you all for the advice. I'm now thinking more about a breath controller. I used to play bassoon so it's kind of natural to think of phrasing in terms of breath.


----------



## DANIELE

I use the breath controller regularly to record some very dynamic phrases.


----------



## Jamus

Alternatively for cheap skates like me, the Korg NanoPAD2 has an XY pad which is handy for playing dynamics and vibrato depth at the same time with one finger. If you also have an expression pedal you'll have 3 CCs immediately reachable. This makes a big difference!


----------



## Sean

@aaronventure Is there any way to disable glisses on low velocity? Other than setting Attack Range to 0? My keyboard's velocity response isn't great and it's easy to accidentally trigger a gliss while just trying to play softly.


----------



## aaronventure

Sean said:


> @aaronventure Is there any way to disable glisses on low velocity? Other than setting Attack Range to 0? My keyboard's velocity response isn't great and it's easy to accidentally trigger a gliss while just trying to play softly.


Adjust the Legato Minimum value.


----------



## Sean

aaronventure said:


> Adjust the Legato Minimum value.


Thank you that did the trick!


----------



## PerryD

I would love to see a slightly wider range of vibrato depth in the flutes. It would not be natural, except to "dip into" it a bit for some nuanced expression. It would be cool in this short piece.


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> I would love to see a slightly wider range of vibrato depth in the flutes. It would not be natural, except to "dip into" it a bit for some nuanced expression. It would be cool in this short piece.



Really nice @PerryD - lovely expression on the flute. Also agree with that you said. Also tone sounds great to my ears.

Btw what strings are you using here? Feels nicely glued together with the flute.


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Really nice @PerryD - lovely expression on the flute. Also agree with that you said. Also tone sounds great to my ears.
> 
> Btw what strings are you using here? Feels nicely glued together with the flute.


S&ES  Thanks!


----------



## shawnsingh

Also agree about the flute vibrato!


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> S&ES  Thanks!



Nice! Do you mind giving a very quick idea of how you spacialised them? In particular, do you use the Dry strings, and if so, do you add any ER within SM's own engine? Assuming that for IW you had Bersa there?

Sounds very good!


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Nice! Do you mind giving a very quick idea of how you spacialised them? In particular, do you use the Dry strings, and if so, do you add any ER within SM's own engine? Assuming that for IW you had Bersa there?
> 
> Sounds very good!


 Thanks! S&ES is dry. Only FabFilter ProR Vienna hall for 'verb. Violins left, Violas slightly left, Celli slightly right, Basses right. IWW Flute was in Mozarteum, default IWW posistion.


----------



## Trace

So, I purchased the Infinite bundle.

And...I really really want to like these librarians. But, I don’t think that I do.

I am a trained pianist and so, my playing skills are pretty good. I find these samples respond strangely sometimes, I’ve watched the walkthroughs and grok the playing philosophy.

Aside from this, solo instruments, with the exception of the flutes, sound pretty good by themselves. But, when you stack them, they sound very synthetic to me.

Also, it is impossible to get a close sound from these libs. There is always a long release tail. And ic you use only the code mic, the samples sound very synthetic. 

I very much respect the opinions of others here, but I felt compelled to give my honest appraisal so that others can read it when making a decision weather or not to drop a lot of dosh on these libs.

I doubt these will work their way into very many of my projects and that is a bummer.

I have CSL and Berlin as my primary WWs. I also own several other niche libraries and Hollywood WWs and brass. Plus, Cinebrass.

I was hoping Infinite Would be the next level.:(


----------



## Trash Panda

Just out of curiosity, are you playing in the ensembles separately or copy pasting?

Have you tried changing the room IR from Mozarteum to Bersa or Studio?


----------



## Laptoprabbit

Trace said:


> So, I purchased the Infinite bundle.
> 
> And...I really really want to like these librarians. But, I don’t think that I do.
> 
> I am a trained pianist and so, my playing skills are pretty good. I find these samples respond strangely sometimes, I’ve watched the walkthroughs and grok the playing philosophy.
> 
> Aside from this, solo instruments, with the exception of the flutes, sound pretty good by themselves. But, when you stack them, they sound very synthetic to me.
> 
> Also, it is impossible to get a close sound from these libs. There is always a long release tail. And ic you use only the code mic, the samples sound very synthetic.
> 
> I very much respect the opinions of others here, but I felt compelled to give my honest appraisal so that others can read it when making a decision weather or not to drop a lot of dosh on these libs.
> 
> I doubt these will work their way into very many of my projects and that is a bummer.
> 
> I have CSL and Berlin as my primary WWs. I also own several other niche libraries and Hollywood WWs and brass. Plus, Cinebrass.
> 
> I was hoping Infinite Would be the next level.:(



Ensembles do sound a bit synthy out the box using the same midi. Maybe it's the similar vibrato for each instrument doing it? I put a noisy tube saturator on the bus and try to vary a few mic positions within the ensembles, although I agree this is one of the weaker points.


----------



## Trace

The Serinator said:


> Just out of curiosity, are you playing in the ensembles separately or copy pasting?
> 
> Have you tried changing the room IR from Mozarteum to Bersa or Studio?



yes, I’ve changed the irs and I play everything in.


----------



## Trace

the flutes sound especially synthy to me.


----------



## Jamus

Trace said:


> the flutes sound especially synthy to me.



Blasphemy!

Well, I guess it's not everyone's cup of tea. One thing to keep in mind about Infinite is that it will improve over time as AV improves his methods! Personally I'm steering away from traditional sample libraries in favour of modelled libraries.


----------



## I like music

Trace said:


> the flutes sound especially synthy to me.


Really sorry to hear you were disappointed! It's an absolute kick in the teeth when that happens with a sample library. 

I never play anything in but do lots of tweaking afterwards with the mouse. I'm assuming you've done cc massaging later? I've found that even single digit differences in the cc value can make a difference. Regarding stacked woods, I think i know where you're coming from. I don't have as much a problem with it but if it bothers you, then it bothers you. Try exaggerating the movement in those sections perhaps? A bit more than you'd expect? 

Sorry if I'm just suggesting things you've already tried! BTW you referring only to woodwinds or also brass?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

It's funny you would mention the flute because I recently conducted a small comparison between different flutes with a few other people. We managed to get most of the bigger names. Of course, there are more libraries out there and some of them might be added later if someone does them.

What was most important for this comparison was the performance. Since I didn't want the library to dictate too much of what I wrote or how I wrote it there might be some oddness in a few of the examples where one of the libraries can't play what we wanted without changing the phrasing/performance. Some of them didn't even have the proper articulations to do what we had in mind and a few just sounded plain bad playing something like non-vib legato, but we tried to mimic the original performance so it stayed in because that's the kind of thing I want to know about before diving headfirst into a library and spending my hard-earned money.

I should also add a small disclaimer that I know a comparison like this is unfair and having different people with different preferences do the comparison like this is flawed at best and people don't want to spend all day trying to get the best possible performance from a library for a simple comparison. At least it's something and might be helpful, or maybe not.

In an exposed example like this, it should be pretty easy to hear what's what.

Edit: Corrected. Uploaded the wrong numbered archive.


----------



## shawnsingh

I just stumbled across a gold mine of information from UNSW about the acoustics of various instruments - https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/basics.html. I wonder how much of this information is used in IW/IB/SWAM/SM ...


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> It's funny you would mention the flute because I recently conducted a small comparison between different flutes with a few other people. We managed to get most of the bigger names. Of course, there are more libraries out there and some of them might be added later if someone does them.
> 
> What was most important for this comparison was the performance. Since I didn't want the library to dictate too much of what I wrote or how I wrote it there might be some oddness in a few of the examples where one of the libraries can't play what we wanted without changing the phrasing/performance. Some of them didn't even have the proper articulations to do what we had in mind and a few just sounded plain bad playing something like non-vib legato, but we tried to mimic the original performance so it stayed in because that's the kind of thing I want to know about before diving headfirst into a library and spending my hard-earned money.
> 
> I should also add a small disclaimer that I know a comparison like this is unfair and having different people with different preferences do the comparison like this is flawed at best and people don't want to spend all day trying to get the best possible performance from a library for a simple comparison. At least it's something and might be helpful, or maybe not.
> 
> In an exposed example like this, it should be pretty easy to hear what's what.
> 
> Edit: Corrected. Uploaded the wrong numbered archive.


Happy to say they all sound like flutes. Wondering how many people could pick it out. So the only thing remaining is which one could now go on to peform any other line you threw at it. That's where we know IW would do well. 

That said, the more instruments you stack (like chords in some sort of chorale) the easier it might get to detect. Not sure why, but that's my feeling. 

Anyhow, nice test and it tells me that the tone is good enough!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Happy to say they all sound like flutes. Wondering how many people could pick it out. So the only thing remaining is which one could now go on to peform any other line you threw at it. That's where we know IW would do well.
> 
> That said, the more instruments you stack (like chords in some sort of chorale) the easier it might get to detect. Not sure why, but that's my feeling.
> 
> Anyhow, nice test and it tells me that the tone is good enough!



Maybe because in a true ensemble the air vibration produced by every instrument affect each other in some way. Stacking solo instruments is not the same, but even if I'm still palying to sit the instruments better in my space I'm pretty satisfied with the sound I get and every track I do brings me new ideas to do better and better. Plus we must remember that Aaron keeps developing his libraries so as the tecnology improves he also improves. This is a great money investment.


----------



## dcgrp

Hi all, I just got Infinite WW and BR and I'm using them in Reaper. I'm somewhat new to this game in the sense that I'm using Infinite to mock up exercises for my music students. Can someone clue me in on some best practices for Kontakt inside Reaper (or any DAW really) when the project is essentially a full wind ensemble?

One instance of Kontakt handling lots of different Infinite instruments spread out over multiple tracks?

Each individual instrument getting its own track and its own instance of Kontakt/Infinite?

What are the best practices from a conserving CPU resources and practicality perspective?


----------



## Stevie

I like music said:


> Happy to say they all sound like flutes. Wondering how many people could pick it out. So the only thing remaining is which one could now go on to peform any other line you threw at it. That's where we know IW would do well.
> 
> That said, the more instruments you stack (like chords in some sort of chorale) the easier it might get to detect. Not sure why, but that's my feeling.
> 
> Anyhow, nice test and it tells me that the tone is good enough!



#3 is Infinite Woodwinds, unless I’m completely wrong (you can hear it in the chewing gum like legato)
#1 and 7 must be an 8dio Flute, because the decay doesn’t loop after the legato.
#6: CineWinds Flute


----------



## SirKen

Trace said:


> So, I purchased the Infinite bundle.
> 
> And...I really really want to like these librarians. But, I don’t think that I do.
> 
> I am a trained pianist and so, my playing skills are pretty good. I find these samples respond strangely sometimes, I’ve watched the walkthroughs and grok the playing philosophy.
> 
> Aside from this, solo instruments, with the exception of the flutes, sound pretty good by themselves. But, when you stack them, they sound very synthetic to me.
> 
> Also, it is impossible to get a close sound from these libs. There is always a long release tail. And ic you use only the code mic, the samples sound very synthetic.
> 
> I very much respect the opinions of others here, but I felt compelled to give my honest appraisal so that others can read it when making a decision weather or not to drop a lot of dosh on these libs.
> 
> I doubt these will work their way into very many of my projects and that is a bummer.
> 
> I have CSL and Berlin as my primary WWs. I also own several other niche libraries and Hollywood WWs and brass. Plus, Cinebrass.
> 
> I was hoping Infinite Would be the next level.:(


Would it be possible to hear a small snippet?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Stevie said:


> #3 is Intimate, unless I’m completely wrong (you can hear it in the chewing gum like legato)
> #1 and 7 must be an 8dio Flute, because the decay doesn’t loop after the legato.
> #6: CineWinds Flute



Thanks, Stevie. I will reveal the libraries at some point, but I will give others the chance to guess if they want to. Did you mean #3 = Infinite or are you talking about 8Dio Intimate Woodwinds?

Did you have a preference for this particular phrase?


----------



## Stevie

Sorry, I meant Infinite! Will correct it.
Sure, take your time. Do you have a thread with these examples?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Stevie said:


> Sorry, I meant Infinite! Will correct it.
> Sure, take your time. Do you have a thread with these examples?



No, I didn't do an exclusive thread for these ones -- didn't even post them in the comparison thread I started a while back. To be frank, I actually wasn't sure if I _wanted _to post these and did this comparison mostly for my own sake. Then people started talking about the flute and I thought "Hey, might as well post that comparison I compiled."

It extremely hard to do a just comparison between libraries; they are all tools for different tasks and excel at different things, and a bad demo by someone could wrongly portray that library. Although, I still find them somewhat informational. And in this case, it's mostly just to hear the tone and performance.


----------



## xenos

Hello. Sorry about my English. I know it is not perfect but I will do my best. 
Get to the point. 
The last two days (I'm writing from Polish) to buy bundles on sale. My question is short. Is it worth choosing this bundle? I'd like to add that I don't usually write "epic" music. Only more classic "Goldsmith" style I already have Berlin Brass (basic without EXP) and Berlin Woodwins Revive and Junkie XL Brass. My question is whether it is worth investing in this package? I have been wondering about it for a long time and either now or never :D. I know that everyone has a different opinion but my question is addressed to people who already have and think it is a good investment. Once again, I apologize for my English and thank you all in advance for your help


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

xenos said:


> Hello. Sorry about my English. I know it is not perfect but I will do my best.
> Get to the point.
> The last two days (I'm writing from Polish) to buy bundles on sale. My question is short. Is it worth choosing this bundle? I'd like to add that I don't usually write "epic" music. Only more classic "Goldsmith" style I already have Berlin Brass (basic without EXP) and Berlin Woodwins Revive and Junkie XL Brass. My question is whether it is worth investing in this package? I have been wondering about it for a long time and either now or never :D. I know that everyone has a different opinion but my question is addressed to people who already have and think it is a good investment. Once again, I apologize for my English and thank you all in advance for your help



What are you missing from your current libraries? Only you can answer that - not the rest of us.


----------



## I like music

xenos said:


> Hello. Sorry about my English. I know it is not perfect but I will do my best.
> Get to the point.
> The last two days (I'm writing from Polish) to buy bundles on sale. My question is short. Is it worth choosing this bundle? I'd like to add that I don't usually write "epic" music. Only more classic "Goldsmith" style I already have Berlin Brass (basic without EXP) and Berlin Woodwins Revive and Junkie XL Brass. My question is whether it is worth investing in this package? I have been wondering about it for a long time and either now or never :D. I know that everyone has a different opinion but my question is addressed to people who already have and think it is a good investment. Once again, I apologize for my English and thank you all in advance for your help


In my personal opinion these libraries are more Goldsmith friendly than many others. That's because he asked his woodwinds and his brass to play more than just epic stuff. So I'd say perfect. (good choice of composer to emulate 

However, you also have some excellent tools in your arsenal already! So do you think something is missing in how you write?


----------



## Jamus

xenos said:


> Hello. Sorry about my English. I know it is not perfect but I will do my best.
> Get to the point.
> The last two days (I'm writing from Polish) to buy bundles on sale. My question is short. Is it worth choosing this bundle? I'd like to add that I don't usually write "epic" music. Only more classic "Goldsmith" style I already have Berlin Brass (basic without EXP) and Berlin Woodwins Revive and Junkie XL Brass. My question is whether it is worth investing in this package? I have been wondering about it for a long time and either now or never :D. I know that everyone has a different opinion but my question is addressed to people who already have and think it is a good investment. Once again, I apologize for my English and thank you all in advance for your help


Buy one of every everything in existence!


----------



## xenos

Jamus said:


> Buy one of every everything in existence!



Thank you for your invaluable advice. That is what I needed. 



I like music said:


> In my personal opinion these libraries are more Goldsmith friendly than many others. That's because he asked his woodwinds and his brass to play more than just epic stuff. So I'd say perfect. (good choice of composer to emulate
> 
> However, you also have some excellent tools in your arsenal already! So do you think something is missing in how you write?



You know, it is not exactly that I am missing something. To tell you the truth, I do not feel any pressing need for change, so to speak. The JXL, for example, is great, but the solo trumpet sounds very synthetic. I've seen and heard a lot of things about the Infinite Series. And there is something about it that makes me very tempted. I am aware that 99% of the sound will be hmm 'synth'. Probably not like the samples. But listening to the demo and watching the tutorials I have an irresistible impression that this is a step forward, especially the lack of annoying KS that programming "eat" a lot of time. Here we just have Trumpet 1 and that's it. No leg, stacc, fx, no million parts. In addition, I have the impression that the sound, although it will probably be synthetic, although of course I am not sure. despite this, the Infinite series has something in it that makes it sound extremely realistic overall. I don't know I have no idea how it is done I have no idea, but I have this impression. I'm a french horn player myself so I pay a lot of attention to the Brass sound. In this case I have the impression that Infinite series is such a 'train to the future' and I just wonder whether to get into it  I have an impression that Aaron will be developing this project and if it's true it's probably worth to be on board  I'm sorry for the long attitude and my English


----------



## Jamus

xenos said:


> Thank you for your invaluable advice. That is what I needed.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, it is not exactly that I am missing something. To tell you the truth, I do not feel any pressing need for change, so to speak. The JXL, for example, is great, but the solo trumpet sounds very synthetic. I've seen and heard a lot of things about the Infinite Series. And there is something about it that makes me very tempted. I am aware that 99% of the sound will be hmm 'synth'. Probably not like the samples. But listening to the demo and watching the tutorials I have an irresistible impression that this is a step forward, especially the lack of annoying KS that programming "eat" a lot of time. Here we just have Trumpet 1 and that's it. No leg, stacc, fx, no million parts. In addition, I have the impression that the sound, although it will probably be synthetic, although of course I am not sure. despite this, the Infinite series has something in it that makes it sound extremely realistic overall. I don't know I have no idea how it is done I have no idea, but I have this impression. I'm a french horn player myself so I pay a lot of attention to the Brass sound. In this case I have the impression that Infinite series is such a 'train to the future' and I just wonder whether to get into it  I have an impression that Aaron will be developing this project and if it's true it's probably worth to be on board  I'm sorry for the long attitude and my English



Infinite is worth it! Especially when you take into account future updates and just the sheer convenience of not needing a million tracks for articulations, the amount of instruments included, and how ridiculously light on RAM it is! It is the future!


----------



## Trace

I like music said:


> Happy to say they all sound like flutes. Wondering how many people could pick it out. So the only thing remaining is which one could now go on to peform any other line you threw at it. That's where we know IW would do well.
> 
> That said, the more instruments you stack (like chords in some sort of chorale) the easier it might get to detect. Not sure why, but that's my feeling.
> 
> Anyhow, nice test and it tells me that the tone is good enough!


Yes, exactly


----------



## Trace

Jamus said:


> Infinite is worth it! Especially when you take into account future updates and just the sheer convenience of not needing a million tracks for articulations, the amount of instruments included, and how ridiculously light on RAM it is! It is the future!


It would be if it sounded good. 

I will post examples, when I get a chance. 

I recently did a piece with Berlin WW, Time Micto and NI session horns pro doing the flugal horn solo. I do not believe that any of the Infinite instruments, save perhaps the clarinet, would sound as real as that horn performance.


----------



## Sean

Trace said:


> It would be if it sounded good.
> 
> I will post examples, when I get a chance.
> 
> I recently did a piece with Berlin WW, Time Micto and NI session horns pro doing the flugal horn solo. I do not believe that any of the Infinite instruments, save perhaps the clarinet, would sound as real as that horn performance.


As a brass player I think they sound quite good, as far as sample libraries go. Maybe not as good as the absolute top options, but the tradeoff for playability, no keyswitches, etc. is worth it for me. I would like to hear the piece with session horns, not as familiar with those but I think session strings is pretty bad.


----------



## Stevie

Jonathan Moray said:


> Did you have a preference for this particular phrase?



To be honest, no.


----------



## DANIELE

xenos said:


> You know, it is not exactly that I am missing something. To tell you the truth, I do not feel any pressing need for change, so to speak. The JXL, for example, is great, but the solo trumpet sounds very synthetic. I've seen and heard a lot of things about the Infinite Series. And there is something about it that makes me very tempted. I am aware that 99% of the sound will be hmm 'synth'. Probably not like the samples. But listening to the demo and watching the tutorials I have an irresistible impression that this is a step forward, especially the lack of annoying KS that programming "eat" a lot of time. Here we just have Trumpet 1 and that's it. No leg, stacc, fx, no million parts. In addition, I have the impression that the sound, although it will probably be synthetic, although of course I am not sure. despite this, the Infinite series has something in it that makes it sound extremely realistic overall. I don't know I have no idea how it is done I have no idea, but I have this impression. I'm a french horn player myself so I pay a lot of attention to the Brass sound. In this case I have the impression that Infinite series is such a 'train to the future' and I just wonder whether to get into it  I have an impression that Aaron will be developing this project and if it's true it's probably worth to be on board  I'm sorry for the long attitude and my English




For me these are the go to libraries, overall they are so much fun to play with as much as the "old libraries" was a pain in the ass with KS switching.
I like to find new ways to make them sit in the space, to make them sound better and most of all I like to be able to do everything I want without being forced to avoid things because of the KS consistency lacking.

I have to say I'm not a brass player at all but I love the sound of the library out of the box and finally Aaron is always here to listen to users complaints (the useful ones) to do a better job with the future updates, I mean, how many developers do you know that show this love to their work?
Plus he doesn't only fix or update his instruments, he also add new instruments here and there...

Listen to the demos and if you like the sound buy the libraries. For me they are gold. I really hope that the technology will go this way for other devs in the future.

PS don't let Aaron step in too often here, because each post from him is an extra month late for the strings.


----------



## vicontrolu

xenos said:


> Thank you for your invaluable advice. That is what I needed.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, it is not exactly that I am missing something. To tell you the truth, I do not feel any pressing need for change, so to speak. The JXL, for example, is great, but the solo trumpet sounds very synthetic. I've seen and heard a lot of things about the Infinite Series. And there is something about it that makes me very tempted. I am aware that 99% of the sound will be hmm 'synth'. Probably not like the samples. But listening to the demo and watching the tutorials I have an irresistible impression that this is a step forward, especially the lack of annoying KS that programming "eat" a lot of time. Here we just have Trumpet 1 and that's it. No leg, stacc, fx, no million parts. In addition, I have the impression that the sound, although it will probably be synthetic, although of course I am not sure. despite this, the Infinite series has something in it that makes it sound extremely realistic overall. I don't know I have no idea how it is done I have no idea, but I have this impression. I'm a french horn player myself so I pay a lot of attention to the Brass sound. In this case I have the impression that Infinite series is such a 'train to the future' and I just wonder whether to get into it  I have an impression that Aaron will be developing this project and if it's true it's probably worth to be on board  I'm sorry for the long attitude and my English



You got all of your facts right and this thread is 182 pages, full of demos and honest thoughts on the library. Its only up to you to drop the bucks now. Dont put that decision on us


----------



## skythemusic

xenos said:


> Thank you for your invaluable advice. That is what I needed.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, it is not exactly that I am missing something. To tell you the truth, I do not feel any pressing need for change, so to speak. The JXL, for example, is great, but the solo trumpet sounds very synthetic. I've seen and heard a lot of things about the Infinite Series. And there is something about it that makes me very tempted. I am aware that 99% of the sound will be hmm 'synth'. Probably not like the samples. But listening to the demo and watching the tutorials I have an irresistible impression that this is a step forward, especially the lack of annoying KS that programming "eat" a lot of time. Here we just have Trumpet 1 and that's it. No leg, stacc, fx, no million parts. In addition, I have the impression that the sound, although it will probably be synthetic, although of course I am not sure. despite this, the Infinite series has something in it that makes it sound extremely realistic overall. I don't know I have no idea how it is done I have no idea, but I have this impression. I'm a french horn player myself so I pay a lot of attention to the Brass sound. In this case I have the impression that Infinite series is such a 'train to the future' and I just wonder whether to get into it  I have an impression that Aaron will be developing this project and if it's true it's probably worth to be on board  I'm sorry for the long attitude and my English



Your English is excellent.

This is essentially how I feel. I don't have a good brass library. What I have used most like SST and BHCT aren't great. I haven't heard anything I liked from solo instruments, even Sample Modeling seems a mixed bag. There is something about the playability of this and something about it that seems strangely realistic. Maybe I'm wrong about the tone but I like to play and not program so even if it just beat SST, which can't be hard, I'd be pretty stoked.


----------



## shawnsingh

dcgrp said:


> Hi all, I just got Infinite WW and BR and I'm using them in Reaper. I'm somewhat new to this game in the sense that I'm using Infinite to mock up exercises for my music students. Can someone clue me in on some best practices for Kontakt inside Reaper (or any DAW really) when the project is essentially a full wind ensemble?
> 
> One instance of Kontakt handling lots of different Infinite instruments spread out over multiple tracks?
> 
> Each individual instrument getting its own track and its own instance of Kontakt/Infinite?
> 
> What are the best practices from a conserving CPU resources and practicality perspective?



It's probably best to try all ways and see what happens. I think you will probably see best performance with just a few instruments per Kontakt instance, but it might not be necessary to have a separate instance for each.

In addition to your DAW, Kontakt also has an option for multi-threading. Sometimes, turning on/off the multi-threading capability in Kontakt can help. I think the multi-threading in Kontakt can conflict with the multi-threading in the DAW (i.e. the DAW's multi-threading logic might assume that each task mainly a single thread, but if Kontakt multi-threading is on, it might be a bad assumption), so in that case, turning off multi-threading in Kontakt may be helpful.

For conserving CPU resources, you may want to use Infinite's mic mix options, instead of setting the three different close/main/ambient individually.

Also, for conserving CPU resources, audio output buffer settings matter a lot. To a certain extent, larger buffer settings will reduce CPU usage. There are two buffer-related things to try tweaking: (1) Some DAWs have a feature that intelligently uses a larger audio buffer for tracks that are not actively selected, and uses more real-time settings for selected tracks. In Cubase this is called AsioGuard. I don't know if Reaper has such a feature, but if it does, then enabling that and de-selecting all tracks will help playback go smoothly. and (2) if you can tolerate playback lag, directly increasing your audio output's buffer size should also help improve CPU usage. Most people don't like this, though, because it does create annoying uncomfortable lag for real-time playback when using a MIDI controller.

Hope that helps! Or at least, I hope this doesn't make your settings worse


----------



## SirKen

Trace said:


> It would be if it sounded good.
> 
> I will post examples, when I get a chance.
> 
> I recently did a piece with Berlin WW, Time Micto and NI session horns pro doing the flugal horn solo. I do not believe that any of the Infinite instruments, save perhaps the clarinet, would sound as real as that horn performance.



That is quite troubling. I am hoping that you get a chance to post some of those bad examples here before the sale is over.


----------



## Sean

Further progress on Test Drive from HTTYD. If anyone has any advice on mixing it I'd appreciate it (I don't have monitors, just a pair of headphones)


----------



## Stevie

Sean said:


> Further progress on Test Drive from HTTYD. If anyone has any advice on mixing it I'd appreciate it (I don't have monitors, just a pair of headphones)


Is that Infinite Brass?


----------



## Sean

Stevie said:


> Is that Infinite Brass?


Yes, IB and IW (I haven't put most of the winds in yet, you can sort of hear a flute run in the middle)


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I started experiencing clicks/pops again during playback with a very small project:



I'm lost, tbh. Not sure how to get it to behave normally. Last time this happened, I changed from my u-24 audio driver to ASIO4ALL and that let me continue, but this time it makes no difference.
As you can see in the video, the CPU meter is barely going past 10%.


----------



## Stevie

Sean said:


> Yes, IB and IW (I haven't put most of the winds in yet, you can sort of hear a flute run in the middle)



My feeling is that you need to ride the controllers way more. It sounds too static. 
And I would try to put the Brass more in the background. It's too close compared to the other instruments.


----------



## Sean

Stevie said:


> My feeling is that you need to ride the controllers way more. It sounds too static.
> And I would try to put the Brass more in the background. It's too close compared to the other instruments.


Agreed on it needing to be a bit more in the background. For riding the controllers more, are you referring to mainly the Horn/Trumpets in the melody, or also the low brass?


----------



## Ivan M.

A thought (don't know if this was already asked)
Seems that NI take their time to update stuff, with each macos release and especially now the apple M1 thing. Also there are some possible performance issues @ tack found in kontakt that's still unchanged in v6. 
Given the above, is there a slight possibility to use a sampler platform other than NI?


----------



## Saxer

Brass close to always plays BAUuuuuuu and never BAAAAAAAAA.


----------



## DCPImages

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I started experiencing clicks/pops again during playback with a very small project:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm lost, tbh. Not sure how to get it to behave normally. Last time this happened, I changed from my u-24 audio driver to ASIO4ALL and that let me continue, but this time it makes no difference.
> As you can see in the video, the CPU meter is barely going past 10%.




The problem might be related to windows. I find this YouTube channel has useful information on tweaking windows to avoid glitches: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzLl8NF-hiP2HMq5dL2NQOQ 

Hope this helps,
D


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Here's a version of the Test Drive horns that I did just now.

As you can probably hear it suffers the usual problem with sampled horns (especially with solo instruments stacked), twelve horns don't sound like twelve horns. Although, in this case, it's somewhat my fault.

Firstly, I just pitched one-half of the twelve horns down 2 semitones by adding a pitch effect on my FX channel and then played I played them 2 semitones up as a group. I also inverted the stereo field (this creates a slight bit of phasing because the same impulses are used by both halves of the twelve horns).

Secondly, I used the same midi data for all twelve horns and didn't do any additional pitch automation, only used the built-in humanize. This is actually one of the bigger things I think is missing in IB and IW; a nice little Sustain Accuracy next to the Attack Accuracy. Something that would add slight pitch drift during the sustain note and that I can control the amount of. I really hope this gets added at some point, but I don't want to bug Aaron about it before he has finished the series.

All in all, this took me about five minutes. I listened to the part once and then put it into my daw.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's a version of the Test Drive horns that I did just now.
> 
> As you can probably hear it suffers the usual problem with sampled horns (especially with solo instruments stacked), twelve horns don't sound like twelve horns. Although, in this case, it's somewhat my fault.
> 
> Firstly, I just pitched one-half of the twelve horns down 2 semitones by adding a pitch effect on my FX channel and then played I played them 2 semitones up as a group. I also inverted the stereo field (this creates a slight bit of phasing because the same impulses are used by both halves of the twelve horns).
> 
> Secondly, I used the same midi data for all twelve horns and didn't do any additional pitch automation, only used the built-in humanize. This is actually one of the bigger things I think is missing in IB and IW; a nice little Sustain Accuracy next to the Attack Accuracy. Something that would add slight pitch drift during the sustain note and that I can control the amount of. I really hope this gets added at some point, but I don't want to bug Aaron about it before he has finished the series.
> 
> All in all, this took me about five minutes. I listened to the part once and then put it into my daw.



Sounds very different from Sean's demo, almost like a different library! Using different patches perhaps?


----------



## DANIELE

Saxer said:


> Brass close to always plays BAUuuuuuu and never BAAAAAAAAA.




This is why I always draw automations like this, also when I record the line even if I'm not a brass player this shape comes naturally.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Sounds very different from Sean's demo, almost like a different library! Using different patches perhaps?



There's only one patch per instrument, so no, I don't think so. There's also barely any settings to change and my example is almost right out of the box (add some more humanization to some of the horns). Libraries like this are very dependent on the user and won't hold your hand as much which in this case gives you more flexibility.

Keep in mind, this is barely mixed. I think that's something a lot of people overlook when they go for a library like this; it's not mixed by a world-renowned engineer that has his name on hundreds of records, instead, you have to be the mix engineer. This gives you a lot more of freedom and options but it also gives you a lot more to know to get it to sound right, especially in a mix with competing instruments.


----------



## PerryD

PerryD said:


> I would love to see a slightly wider range of vibrato depth in the flutes. It would not be natural, except to "dip into" it a bit for some nuanced expression. It would be cool in this short piece.


 I fleshed out the piece with a few more instruments. IWW Clarinets, English Horn and IB French Horns. I love playing much more than programming.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> There's only one patch per instrument, so no, I don't think so. There's also barely any settings to change and my example is almost right out of the box (add some more humanization to some of the horns). Libraries like this are very dependent on the user and won't hold your hand as much which in this case gives you more flexibility.
> 
> Keep in mind, this is barely mixed. I think that's something a lot of people overlook when they go for a library like this; it's not mixed by a world-renowned engineer that has his name on hundreds of records, instead, you have to be the mix engineer. This gives you a lot more of freedom and options but it also gives you a lot more to know to get it to sound right, especially in a mix with competing instruments.



Sounds good, as does your stuff usually. Did you use Bersa + some other reverb here or is this Mozarteum? Can't tell because of my laptop speakers.


----------



## Sean

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Sounds very different from Sean's demo, almost like a different library! Using different patches perhaps?


I'm only using 3 horns in my demo, no pitch shifting atm. He's also playing in a different key.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Sounds good, as does your stuff usually. Did you use Bersa + some other reverb here or is this Mozarteum? Can't tell because of my laptop speakers.



Thanks.

This is right out of the box, so, Mozarteum I belive. The only thing I added was some VERY slight saturation on the top and scooped out a bit of the mud @700Hz to make it sound better with a large ensemble like this and to closer fit the original. Only listening on headphones right now but I would say the original is even more scooped because it has to give the room the rest of the instruments.


----------



## Sean

Here's the horns exposed, no processing.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sean said:


> Here's the horns exposed, no processing.



Despite the key difference, there is a significant tonal difference too and are you using Mozarteum as well, because the space sounds different to Jonathan's.

Could be all down to mixing if the programming is very similar between the examples. Though, it does emphasize Jonathan's point then that this library "requires" you to be more of a mix engineer than some of libraries.


----------



## Sean

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Despite the key difference, there is a significant tonal difference too and are you using Mozarteum as well, because the space sounds different to Jonathan's.
> 
> Could be all down to mixing if the programming is very similar between the examples. Though, it does emphasize Jonathan's point then that this library "requires" you to be more of a mix engineer than some of libraries.


Mozarteum, mic mix 3, humanize on for horns 2 and 3. Jonathan's sounds like it has way more reverb to me, maybe it's because he's using 12 horns instead of 3? On my headphones I think mine sounds a lot brighter and clearer, his sounds muddy. Of course this makes sense with the size difference. But I'm not sure if I'm missing something due to my headphones. I agree it sounds different, but mine sounds good to me.

Edit: The midi is also different on mine, I played in each part.


----------



## I like music

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Despite the key difference, there is a significant tonal difference too and are you using Mozarteum as well, because the space sounds different to Jonathan's.
> 
> Could be all down to mixing if the programming is very similar between the examples. Though, it does emphasize Jonathan's point then that this library "requires" you to be more of a mix engineer than some of libraries.



In my experience, once you start stacking the instruments, the overall tone changes substantially. Even 4 horns to 6 horns (from memory) is really different, which is one reason I like the library so much. 3 horns vs 12 horns in Mozarteum will explain much of what you might be hearing. Also, if Jonathan used mix positions 4 or 5 (as opposed to Sean's 3) then that would also provide _much_ more ambience, in my experience. In particular, with horns I find this to be very noticeable in the library.


----------



## Jamus

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I started experiencing clicks/pops again during playback with a very small project:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm lost, tbh. Not sure how to get it to behave normally. Last time this happened, I changed from my u-24 audio driver to ASIO4ALL and that let me continue, but this time it makes no difference.
> As you can see in the video, the CPU meter is barely going past 10%.



I have no clue ☹️

There's a Kontakt setting in the 'Memory' section called 'preload buffer size'. This I think has an effect on whether more RAM or streaming from disc is used. Default is 60.00kb I believe. Probably won't do anything but it couldn't hurt to try lowering or raising it.


----------



## aaronventure

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I started experiencing clicks/pops again during playback


Can you post a screenshot of your Preferences/Buffering page?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

aaronventure said:


> Can you post a screenshot of your Preferences/Buffering page?


Hi Aaron,

I remember the email from before where you told me to turn on FX Processing which I did do, however, returning to that Email, I realised I hadn't also checked the two options under it that I've underlined in red. I have checked those now so I'm hoping this will fix the clicking problem I've been having.


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I remember the email from before where you told me to turn on FX Processing which I did do, however, returning to that Email, I realised I hadn't also checked the two options under it that I've underlined in red. I have checked those now so I'm hoping this will fix the clicking problem I've been having.



Look if you have also enabled it on single tracks. It could also be an HDD problem, it doesn't seem related to cpu or ram, look at the task manager while you are playing to see if your HDD is chocking.

From the video I don't see an opened midi editor so the option you checked shouldn't change anything.

Look also at kontakt HDD utilization, if it became red and goes to 100% there's something wrong on your HDD.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> In my experience, once you start stacking the instruments, the overall tone changes substantially. Even 4 horns to 6 horns (from memory) is really different, which is one reason I like the library so much. 3 horns vs 12 horns in Mozarteum will explain much of what you might be hearing. Also, if Jonathan used mix positions 4 or 5 (as opposed to Sean's 3) then that would also provide _much_ more ambience, in my experience. In particular, with horns I find this to be very noticeable in the library.



Yes, stacking instruments create a few challenges compared to solo instruments and a different sound. I do belive IB sounds quite good when stackaded without much extra work.

Honestly, I agree with Sean, my mix is quite muddy. There's still too much build-up in the lower-mids all the way up to around 1k. I cut less than 3dB @700Hz and for a real mix I would cut more and lower.

I tried to post the example as much straight out-of-the-box as possible, with only minimal changes, because that's what I think most people want to hear in a small snippet like the one I posted. While if I were to post a full track I think most people would be interested in hearing what the library is capable of with prioer mixing and some more work.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes, stacking instruments create a few challenges compared to solo instruments and a different sound. I do belive IB sounds quite good when stackaded without much extra work.
> 
> Honestly, I agree with Sean, my mix is quite muddy. There's still too much build-up in the lower-mids all the way up to around 1k. I cut less than 3dB @700Hz and for a real mix I would cut more and lower.
> 
> I tried to post the example as much straight out-of-the-box as possible, with only minimal changes, because that's what I think most people want to hear in a small snippet like the one I posted. While if I were to post a full track I think most people would be interested in hearing what the library is capable of with prioer mixing and some more work.


Quite liked your version. But I was on laptop speakers so it didn't sound muddy! Which goes to show, you just don't know who will listen to your mix thru which device!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@NeonMediaKJT,

I would say that it's your Audio Interface. I know you use the Zoom-something (u-24?). I'm not sure, but I do believe that's not the most high-end interface for production. When researching interfaces I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention Zoom for their rock-solid drivers.

What I would recommend is download LatencyMon and check to make sure nothing else in your system that's causing the interrupts -- faulty drivers or another program in the background. Then I would also check the ASIO meter (Not sure if there's something like that in Reaper, there is in Cubase) where you can see if the ASIO drivers are overloaded and cause the interrupts and pops/crackle.

From the image you posted you're using Fl Studio ASIO drivers, not ASIO4ALL.


----------



## Stevie

Sean said:


> Here's the horns exposed, no processing.


Could it be that you are playing this with the mod wheel all the way up?
The transients of the Horn always sound the same (static).


----------



## Sean

Stevie said:


> Could it be that you are playing this with the mod wheel all the way up?
> The transients of the Horn always sound the same (static).



Here's the modulation for one of the horns, they're all roughly the same. Please clarify for me, the transient is the initial sound of the instrument following the articulation right? The mod yea, but the part is played at FF. I think it sounds fine, especially when not exposed. I am by no means a midi programming expert at all, but I have played in concert bands and orchestras as a brass player.

Edit: And I apologize if I'm sounding defensive lol, I'm more just not quite understanding the issue with this particular bit.


----------



## aaronventure

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I remember the email from before where you told me to turn on FX Processing which I did do, however, returning to that Email, I realised I hadn't also checked the two options under it that I've underlined in red. I have checked those now so I'm hoping this will fix the clicking problem I've been having.


Send me an email so we can try and get to the bottom of this.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DANIELE said:


> Look if you have also enabled it on single tracks. It could also be an HDD problem, it doesn't seem related to cpu or ram, look at the task manager while you are playing to see if your HDD is chocking.
> 
> From the video I don't see an opened midi editor so the option you checked shouldn't change anything.
> 
> Look also at kontakt HDD utilization, if it became red and goes to 100% there's something wrong on your HDD.


The library is currently being ran from an M.2 SSD (where I store all my libraries, except East West stuff). I don't think I've noticed anything go red in the UI of Kontakt while this has been happening. 
I did, however, have the library tell me this in the picture I've attached:



Jonathan Moray said:


> @NeonMediaKJT,
> 
> I would say that it's your Audio Interface. I know you use the Zoom-something (u-24?). I'm not sure, but I do believe that's not the most high-end interface for production. When researching interfaces I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention Zoom for their rock-solid drivers.
> 
> What I would recommend is download LatencyMon and check to make sure nothing else in your system that's causing the interrupts -- faulty drivers or another program in the background. Then I would also check the ASIO meter (Not sure if there's something like that in Reaper, there is in Cubase) where you can see if the ASIO drivers are overloaded and cause the interrupts and pops/crackle.
> 
> From the image you posted you're using Fl Studio ASIO drivers, not ASIO4ALL.


Yeah, I am leaning towards that, tbh. I am using FL studio drivers in the video, but I did try all 3 drivers available to me, including ASIO4ALL and it made no difference. I do have LatencyMon installed so i'll try that.
I've also been through and made any necessary changes to my Windows settings following advice earlier in the thread.



aaronventure said:


> Send me an email so we can try and get to the bottom of this.


Will do!


----------



## SirKen

NeonMediaKJT said:


> The library is currently being ran from an M.2 SSD (where I store all my libraries, except East West stuff). I don't think I've noticed anything go red in the UI of Kontakt while this has been happening.
> I did, however, have the library tell me this in the picture I've attached:
> 
> 
> Yeah, I am leaning towards that, tbh. I am using FL studio drivers in the video, but I did try all 3 drivers available to me, including ASIO4ALL and it made no difference. I do have LatencyMon installed so i'll try that.
> I've also been through and made any necessary changes to my Windows settings following advice earlier in the thread.
> 
> 
> Will do!



Here are a few more things that can potentially help:

Changing CPU settings on the BIOS to disable throttling
Ensuring that you are not using one of those buggy Marvell SATA controller for any of your HDDs and disabling this interface if you can
Graphics card drivers from NVIDIA are known to cause issues as well
Disabling onboard audio card in the BIOS (if you have a separate interface)
These were some of the things that gave me grief in the past. Hope you can resolve your issues.


----------



## El Buhdai

SirKen said:


> Graphics card drivers from NVIDIA are known to cause issues as well





Errrr... what kinds of issues? Should I be concerned?


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> Errrr... what kinds of issues? Should I be concerned?



probably referring to DPC latency which nvidia drivers have a reputation for being a bit slower. Here's one of many pages that explain DPC latency - https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/208360865-Troubleshooting-DPC-latency

There's a few threads around vi-control where people switched to AMD or intel graphics and found that it relieved their audio buffer problems a lot.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Errrr... what kinds of issues? Should I be concerned?


lol mine crashes my cubase. so i have to use my onboard stuff. honestly, if using the graphics card, i try to resize a window in cubase or click on something while it is playing something, bang, "Cubase has stopped working" but I don't think that's the problem 99% of people face. Theirs is some latency issue that Shawn described.


----------



## HereGiam

Jamus said:


> Alternatively for cheap skates like me, the Korg NanoPAD2 has an XY pad which is handy for playing dynamics and vibrato depth at the same time with one finger. If you also have an expression pedal you'll have 3 CCs immediately reachable. This makes a big difference!



An XY pad was a great suggestion - thank you! I use a MacBook which has a big trackpad so I picked up AudioSwift last night (well worth it with a 50% discount) and now have CC1 on the X and CC21 on the Y. It's so much easier to use than just a mod wheel. I find having it in absolute mode makes it even better.

There's an added bonus as, for my taste, I find the default vibrato a bit much in some of the woodwind instruments so instead of having to adjust them down I can just use the trackpad at the foot where CC21 is at its lower values, and move further up on the trackpad when I want a bit more.


----------



## Øivind

El Buhdai said:


> Errrr... what kinds of issues? Should I be concerned?




I believe this issue has been fixed, or at least improved, by using the Studio drivers from Nvidia. Tho i can't remember where i read it, so take it with a pinch of salt XD


----------



## campovsky

Howdy all, thought I’d share the latest thing I’ve made with IW and IB. Interested to hear reactions from people familiar with or interested in these libraries! There’s some really clever mockupperers on this thread, and it seems a nice place in general to share stuff for hints and tips


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> The library is currently being ran from an M.2 SSD (where I store all my libraries, except East West stuff). I don't think I've noticed anything go red in the UI of Kontakt while this has been happening.
> I did, however, have the library tell me this in the picture I've attached:



Oh ok, so it seems not hard disk related, then, as others said, I also think it is your audio interface the problem. I think you have to do a "trial and error" process to find the cause. Aaron will help you for sure.



El Buhdai said:


> Errrr... what kinds of issues? Should I be concerned?



I had a 1080 Ti and now a 3090 and never had a problem related to nvidia drivers, I think it depends on the overall config and other variables.


----------



## Gingham Jones

Hey there everybody, I love being and debt and fearing the future of my homestead's stability so I decided to by the Infinite bundle while it's on sale. I'm always a little upset at the lack of dry demos of these libraries so it was a risk. I don't write symphonies, I just like symphonic instruments in my music. So I've spent the last 6 hours or so playing around with this library and came up with my own show-off song in a more pop/rock like setting. And good god, I think it sounds amazing! 'Tis still the honeymoon phase for me with these instruments but I have absolutely no complaints or regrets so far. We'll see about the regrets if I'm relocated to the side of Main St in the near future but complaints wise, I can't find anything. The tone is amazing. Playing it is so easy too, I feel like a musician rather than an editor. The variety of instruments rivals most other libraries too especially for the cost. And the interface is just so wonderful to look at and navigate.... Okay, anyway, here's my video:


----------



## Stevie

Sean said:


> Here's the modulation for one of the horns, they're all roughly the same. Please clarify for me, the transient is the initial sound of the instrument following the articulation right? The mod yea, but the part is played at FF. I think it sounds fine, especially when not exposed. I am by no means a midi programming expert at all, but I have played in concert bands and orchestras as a brass player.
> 
> Edit: And I apologize if I'm sounding defensive lol, I'm more just not quite understanding the issue with this particular bit.



Yes, the transient is the initial attack of the instrument that is crucial for distinguishing instruments in general. 

It's all good, you don't sound defensive. The issue is, I don't own any Infinite Series instrument, otherwise I would take a look at it how you can make it sound more realistic.
Maybe someone in the thread here can give some more advice on that.


----------



## Sean

Stevie said:


> Yes, the transient is the initial attack of the instrument that is crucial for distinguishing instruments in general.
> 
> It's all good, you don't sound defensive. The issue is, I don't own any Infinite Series instrument, otherwise I would take a look at it how you can make it sound more realistic.
> Maybe someone in the thread here can give some more advice on that.


Hmm. I was trying to exaggerate the modulation more but it ended up sounding more like the horns were playing fp at that point. Maybe there's a sweet spot between the two but I'm having trouble finding it.


----------



## DANIELE

Gingham Jones said:


> And good god, I think it sounds amazing! 'Tis still the honeymoon phase for me with these instruments but I have absolutely no complaints or regrets so far.



I have long since passed the honeymoon but I'm still in love with the libraries, the fun thing is that I'm still playing with them to place them in better space, to make them sound the way I want and so on and I keep hearing the results of every change I made, I feel like there still a lot of room to play with. With other libraries often it happened that they was already dead after a very short playing time, and in some cases a very big waste of money.


----------



## shawnsingh

Yeah, I've also been having way too much fun with just noodling and enjoying the sound... it's draining the short amount of time I've allocated to music stuff every week


----------



## Jamus

shawnsingh said:


> Yeah, I've also been having way too much fun with just noodling and enjoying the sound... it's draining the short amount of time I've allocated to music stuff every week



I have plenty of free time but still find myself just goofing off playing with mellow bassoon solos. It's amazing really, I actually play IW and IB frequently like I would piano or guitar. It's become an instrument of its own for me. Never did that often with sample libraries except occasionally on something like Berlin multipatch velocity switching staccato and sustain. Infinite is something else entirely for me, in the best possible way. 😁


----------



## Loïc D

Seems like I missed the BF sales price. *sobs sobs*
I'll wait for next opportunity since it seems an outstanding collection.


----------



## Jamus

A criticism I still have in 2.0 from 1.1 is that the oboe legato still has a synth portamento quality, particularly in the high register. I still love playing it though 🤣


----------



## HereGiam

I've just found a slight strangeness in the sound of the piccolo on just one note (C6). I seem to be hearing a too much of C7 and not enough C6 if that makes sense.

Attached is a little chromatic scale example going through C6 to show the difference in sound for just this one note. For simplicity CC1 is around 40 - the scale up is velocity 1, the scale down is velocity 40. I've not made any changes at all in Kontakt, it's just the piccolo patch at its defaults.

Messing around with all different velocity/dynamic combinations, this note always seems to stand out, especially compared to the B and C# on either side. I know it's probably not going to be noticeable in a mix.


----------



## shawnsingh

HereGiam said:


> I've just found a slight strangeness in the sound of the piccolo on just one note (C6). I seem to be hearing a too much of C7 and not enough C6 if that makes sense.
> 
> Attached is a little chromatic scale example going through C6 to show the difference in sound for just this one note. For simplicity CC1 is around 40 - the scale up is velocity 1, the scale down is velocity 40. I've not made any changes at all in Kontakt, it's just the piccolo patch at its defaults.
> 
> Messing around with all different velocity/dynamic combinations, this note always seems to stand out, especially compared to the B and C# on either side. I know it's probably not going to be noticeable in a mix.



Does this happen with different IRs? e.g. Studio close mic? Also what if you change speakers or headphones?

I can hear what you're talking about even on my laptop speakers. I feel I've heard this kind of difference often on many other libraries too, especially when I've tried to use convolution reverb on top. I never proved it to myself definitively, but I think somehow convolution IRs tend to cause more fixed resonances like this than properly sampled rooms or algorithmic reverbs do. I wonder maybe the room IR resonance combined with your speaker's/room's frequency response just happen to make it feel more glaring in your listening setup?


----------



## HereGiam

shawnsingh said:


> Does this happen with different IRs? e.g. Studio close mic? Also what if you change speakers or headphones?



I hear this in all of Mozarteum, Bersa and Studio, and on different headphones and speakers. The example MP3 is using Mozarteum as that's just the default setting. Hearing the octave above I guess is coming from the harmonics, it's just it sticks out compared to the notes on either side. Also, I don't hear this with C5 or C7.


----------



## Loïc D

@aaronventure do you plan any Holidays Season sales ? 
I’ve missed the BF sales and tbh, Spitfire Studio Ww is driving me mad


----------



## dadadave

I'm pretty new to all this and I'd like to incorporate IW and IB into my template (along with Divisimate). What I wonder is this:

How do you guys decide: "Oh, boy, this piece needs 3 Bassoons and 3 Clarinets etc., 2 won't be enough!" In a real setting, I'd imagine that might depend on general section sizes, but I wonder how people handle it with Infinite Wind and Brass in the sample world. I mean, I guess if you write 3 voices for the flutes, you know you'll need at least 3 instruments, but that's not very common, is it?

(considering these are cpu-intensive, just going with 2 (instead of 3) of each might make a difference in a tutti part with (infinite) brass and winds, right?)

Thanks for any pointers on how to best set this up (I could just go ahead and incorporate everything I have in my template just in case, but I'm not sure that's an efficent approach. Likewise, I'll likely leave out the saxes from my orchestral template, since I don't see myself advanced enough to go "hmmm, great piece, but it really should be a saxophone that has this part, that would make it even better!"


----------



## DavidRubenstein

dadadave said:


> I'm pretty new to all this and I'd like to incorporate IW and IB into my template (along with Divisimate). What I wonder is this:
> 
> How do you guys decide: "Oh, boy, this piece needs 3 Bassoons and 3 Clarinets etc., 2 won't be enough!" In a real setting, I'd imagine that might depend on general section sizes, but I wonder how people handle it with Infinite Wind and Brass in the sample world. I mean, I guess if you write 3 voices for the flutes, you know you'll need at least 3 instruments, but that's not very common, is it?



To answer this question, I would approach it like a classical composer. Should a melody line for flute (for example) be a solo, or unison for 3 flutes? (Or should each flute get a distinct melody line?) Do you want to highlight a solo line, where subtle nuances come through, while the rest of the orchestra serves as a quiet accompaniment? Or is the orchestra playing tutti, for which 3 flutes in unison may be preferred?

Take a listen to this short excerpt from Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", produced with Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass:








Infinite Woodwinds - Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" — Aaron Venture


Listen to Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" performed with Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass! Preview all the rooms, download the MIDI and learn more about the performance in general.




www.aaronventure.com




Every instrument is played as a solo; no two instruments double at any time. That web page allows you to download the MIDI file, assign the tracks to the IW and IB instruments. I did this, and it sounds just like the recording on that page. It is a wonderful example of achieving variety through tone color.


----------



## Zane Smith

Here's something I wrote a while back and wanted to test Infinite Brass with. Nothing fancy, super basic programming.


----------



## Nextmidi

dadadave said:


> How do you guys decide: "Oh, boy, this piece needs 3 Bassoons and 3 Clarinets etc., 2 won't be enough!" In a real setting, I'd imagine that might depend on general section sizes, but I wonder how people handle it with Infinite Wind and Brass in the sample world. I mean, I guess if you write 3 voices for the flutes, you know you'll need at least 3 instruments, but that's not very common, is it?


From a template building perspective with Divisimate I'd recommend just always having three woodwind "Players" in your template and just leave out instruments selectively depending on what you're writing.

With Divisimate the layout could look like this:

Port 1: Piccolo / (Flute 3 on Channel 2*)
Port 2: Flute 1
Port 3: Flute 2 / (Alto Flute on Channel 2)
Port 4: Oboe 1
Port 5: Oboe 2
Port 6: English Horn (Oboe 3 on Channel 2)
Port 7: Clarinet in Bb 1
Port 8: Clarinet in Bb 2
Port 9: Bass Clarinet (Clarinet 3 on Channel 2)
Port 10: Bassoon 1
Port 11: Bassoon 2
Port 12: Contrabassoon (Bassoon 3 on Channel 2)
*That kind of multi-channel approach is unfortunately not possible in Logic

This way you could also download the orchestration presets that are included in the SWAM Orchestral Template and just use them directly with Infinite Woodwinds. That's a whole bunch of standard orchestrations that you don't have to set up yourself.

Yes, the instruments are heavy on CPU, but only if they are actually playing - so having them loaded doesn't do much harm, especially since they are so light on RAM. 
But it gives you that extra flexibility to maybe still bring in that third clarinet player late in the game. If you're writing for 2-2-2-2 you also get all the flexibility of the auxiliaries, having one player switching to English Horn mid-piece.
Once you have made your decision about the instruments, you can still just deactivate the tracks you don't need. But this way you don't have to create separate Divisimate presets for 2-2-2-2 and 3-3-3-3 and you can reuse every orchestration you set up in all your other projects.



dadadave said:


> I mean, I guess if you write 3 voices for the flutes, you know you'll need at least 3 instruments, but that's not very common, is it?


Not very common, but not that *un*common either. For me the main reason to actually have three flutes would be to be able to do homogenous flute triads without splitting the chord with another color. (You can hear this for example here in Reys Theme )
I'd say having three flutes play in unison is usually more of a volume thing and less of a color choice (but maybe someone will fight me on this). If I'm doing a mockup, having two flutes and turning up the volume a bit might just sound close enough.

So I'm going with the layout described above because I think it offers the best of both words. 
Piccolo+Flute 1+Flute 2 gives me the ability to write complete flute-only chords, while also giving me the additional color potential of the piccolo. The same goes for English Horn, Bass Clarinet and Contrabassoon.
Each section can play homogenous triads well enough, but there's even more I can do with the auxiliaries on top of that.
There are only very few situations that I can't manage with this layout - for example low triads with the flutes, as the piccolo's range of course stops an octave higher than the flute. But in those rare cases I can additionally load up Flute 3, and use it instead of the piccolo on the same port.

A lot of this is just personal preference, but I hope it is still helpful!

- Steffen


----------



## antames

Would you say the Infinite Series is more geared towards midi/live players and probably not suitable to those that spend more time programming the notes and articulations in one mouse and keyboard click at a time? Although I've always liked the CineSamples articulation style which also relies on velocities to affect articulations. I think it makes life so much easier this way. I guess my question is, would I not benefit as much with Infinite as I primarily program my notes in as opposed to playing them with a keyboard.


----------



## Terry93D

antames said:


> Would you say the Infinite Series is more geared towards midi/live players and probably not suitable to those that spend more time programming the notes and articulations in one mouse and keyboard click at a time? Although I've always liked the CineSamples articulation style which also relies on velocities to affect articulations. I think it makes life so much easier this way. I guess my question is, would I not benefit as much with Infinite as I primarily program my notes in as opposed to playing them with a keyboard.


It's absolutely usable that way. I effectively exclusively program my notes and I find Infinite easier to work with than keyswitched libraries. There's a learning curve, yes, but this is true even with keyswitched libraries.


----------



## Trash Panda

antames said:


> Would you say the Infinite Series is more geared towards midi/live players and probably not suitable to those that spend more time programming the notes and articulations in one mouse and keyboard click at a time? Although I've always liked the CineSamples articulation style which also relies on velocities to affect articulations. I think it makes life so much easier this way. I guess my question is, would I not benefit as much with Infinite as I primarily program my notes in as opposed to playing them with a keyboard.


Naw, Infinite is plenty easy to use without performing parts. It's more convincing if you do play it in, but you can still get plenty of mileage out of programming CC data.


----------



## dadadave

DavidRubenstein said:


> [...]Take a listen to this short excerpt from Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", produced with Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass:
> That web page allows you to download the MIDI file, assign the tracks to the IW and IB instruments. I



Good points, and thanks for reminding me about the MIDI on Aaron's website, I had completely forgotten about that!



Nextmidi said:


> From a template building perspective with Divisimate I'd recommend just always having three woodwind "Players" in your template and just leave out instruments selectively depending on what you're writing.
> 
> With Divisimate the layout could look like this:
> 
> Port 1: Piccolo / (Flute 3 on Channel 2*)
> Port 2: Flute 1
> Port 3: Flute 2 / (Alto Flute on Channel 2)
> Port 4: Oboe 1
> Port 5: Oboe 2
> Port 6: English Horn (Oboe 3 on Channel 2)
> Port 7: Clarinet in Bb 1
> Port 8: Clarinet in Bb 2
> Port 9: Bass Clarinet (Clarinet 3 on Channel 2)
> Port 10: Bassoon 1
> Port 11: Bassoon 2
> Port 12: Contrabassoon (Bassoon 3 on Channel 2)
> *That kind of multi-channel approach is unfortunately not possible in Logic
> 
> This way you could also download the orchestration presets that are included in the SWAM Orchestral Template and just use them directly with Infinite Woodwinds. That's a whole bunch of standard orchestrations that you don't have to set up yourself.
> 
> Yes, the instruments are heavy on CPU, but only if they are actually playing - so having them loaded doesn't do much harm, especially since they are so light on RAM.
> But it gives you that extra flexibility to maybe still bring in that third clarinet player late in the game. If you're writing for 2-2-2-2 you also get all the flexibility of the auxiliaries, having one player switching to English Horn mid-piece.
> Once you have made your decision about the instruments, you can still just deactivate the tracks you don't need. But this way you don't have to create separate Divisimate presets for 2-2-2-2 and 3-3-3-3 and you can reuse every orchestration you set up in all your other projects.
> 
> 
> Not very common, but not that *un*common either. For me the main reason to actually have three flutes would be to be able to do homogenous flute triads without splitting the chord with another color. (You can hear this for example here in Reys Theme )
> I'd say having three flutes play in unison is usually more of a volume thing and less of a color choice (but maybe someone will fight me on this). If I'm doing a mockup, having two flutes and turning up the volume a bit might just sound close enough.
> 
> So I'm going with the layout described above because I think it offers the best of both words.
> Piccolo+Flute 1+Flute 2 gives me the ability to write complete flute-only chords, while also giving me the additional color potential of the piccolo. The same goes for English Horn, Bass Clarinet and Contrabassoon.
> Each section can play homogenous triads well enough, but there's even more I can do with the auxiliaries on top of that.
> There are only very few situations that I can't manage with this layout - for example low triads with the flutes, as the piccolo's range of course stops an octave higher than the flute. But in those rare cases I can additionally load up Flute 3, and use it instead of the piccolo on the same port.
> 
> A lot of this is just personal preference, but I hope it is still helpful!
> 
> - Steffen



Thank you Steffen, that is very helpful, indeed! I appreciate you taking the time to write such a comprehensive post. (and great job on Divisimate!)


----------



## PerryD

Not the Salvation Army band...The _Sali_vation Army band.


----------



## Tfis

Hi,
has someone any hints how to blend IB/IW with CSS?


----------



## Jamus

As has been pointed out, the RAM footprint of Infinite is so small that you may as well load them all up regardless of whether you use them or not ✌️


----------



## John Longley

Jamus said:


> As has been pointed out, the RAM footprint of Infinite is so small that you may as well load them all up regardless of whether you use them or not ✌


How is CPU? Can you run them at a low buffer?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

John Longley said:


> How is CPU? Can you run them at a low buffer?



I find the CPU to be quite high, though you can help it by choosing a mic mix. Even still, I see it go pretty high.


----------



## Jamus

John Longley said:


> How is CPU? Can you run them at a low buffer?



I suppose it depends on your CPU, but my i7-7700k can take on (so far) all practical applications of instruments with a 128 buffer. One of each woodwind doing fast runs in unisons and octaves is the (tested) tipping point for my PC. I use the Mozartium 3 mix and have humanize disabled.


----------



## John Longley

Jamus said:


> I suppose it depends on your CPU, but my i7-7700k can take on (so far) all practical applications of instruments with a 128 buffer. One of each woodwind doing fast runs in unisons and octaves is the (tested) tipping point for my PC. I use the Mozartium 3 mix and have humanize disabled.


With a full template, or just IW? I am on a 3950x as my main machine.


----------



## Jamus

John Longley said:


> With a full template, or just IW? I am on a 3950x as my main machine.



Tested with just IW. I can't think of a time when I'd be doing full wind tutti 32nd runs so I think this goes beyond practical use. I'm not sure whether it's better to have more cores or higher single core speed, as far as Infinite goes 🤔


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I know Aaron uses a Leap Motion, but I've been testing out a Genki Wave ring controller with IB and IW, and must say, it's pretty awesome! The multi-dimensional control makes it fun to play in and you can be quite expressive.

Would be curious how Aaron has set up his Leap Motion. I've found controlling more than 2 dimensions at once is quite tricky. Probably needs a lot more practice.


----------



## DANIELE

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I know Aaron uses a Leap Motion, but I've been testing out a Genki Wave ring controller with IB and IW, and must say, it's pretty awesome! The multi-dimensional control makes it fun to play in and you can be quite expressive.
> 
> Would be curious how Aaron has set up his Leap Motion. I've found controlling more than 2 dimensions at once is quite tricky. Probably needs a lot more practice.



Those are quite impressive controllers but I think the best one is the breath controller, just because you have to hands free to play what you want. I know that you will use them mostly for playing solo instruments and one hand should be enough but the advantage to have both the hands free is priceless.

I'd like to use also the tilt and pan function of my breath controller but I only manage to use breath and bite because I found unnatural to move the head around while I'm playing.


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> Those are quite impressive controllers but I think the best one is the breath controller, just because you have to hands free to play what you want. I know that you will use them mostly for playing solo instruments and one hand should be enough but the advantage to have both the hands free is priceless.
> 
> I'd like to use also the tilt and pan function of my breath controller but I only manage to use breath and bite because I found unnatural to move the head around while I'm playing.


+1 re: usefulness of keeping hands free... I actually haven't got into using even the bite function, as it seems I can't get a fine enough resolution on it to be worth it, but breath for dynamics, pedals for vibrato speed and depth, leaving a spare hand for pitch-bend or to control sliders for flutter or growl, works nicely for me.

For sure if I could get into bite, tilt, or nod, so I can pitch bend, flutter and growl all at once, that'd be cool. (I can flutter and growl at once, with two adjacent sliders and two fingers, but they are nowhere near my pitch wheel.)


----------



## DANIELE

decredis said:


> +1 re: usefulness of keeping hands free... I actually haven't got into using even the bite function, as it seems I can't get a fine enough resolution on it to be worth it, but breath for dynamics, pedals for vibrato speed and depth, leaving a spare hand for pitch-bend or to control sliders for flutter or growl, works nicely for me.
> 
> For sure if I could get into bite, tilt, or nod, so I can pitch bend, flutter and growl all at once, that'd be cool. (I can flutter and growl at once, with two adjacent sliders and two fingers, but they are nowhere near my pitch wheel.)



I actually use the bite for vibrato because it feels almost natural to me, the only downside is that after a while I start feeling some fatigue of the mandibular muscle.
Luckily I'm not a professional player so usually I record short phrases, the real problem is when I start to play for fun with the libraries, there is where I fall...


----------



## D Halgren

DANIELE said:


> I actually use the bite for vibrato because it feels almost natural to me, the only downside is that after a while I start feeling some fatigue of the mandibular muscle.
> Luckily I'm not a professional player so usually I record short phrases, the real problem is when I start to play for fun with the libraries, there is where I fall...


I've just started using the BBC2, do you guys have any suggestions on how closed the valve should be? Right now I set it up to be very closed so I can reach the max easily, but I do run into some fatigue, and it's a bit touchy. I was wondering if maybe I should open the valve a bit and change the sensitivity of the sensor?


----------



## D Halgren

I also haven't found a good setting for the tilt and nod, either. Need to work with that a bit more.


----------



## DANIELE

D Halgren said:


> I've just started using the BBC2, do you guys have any suggestions on how closed the valve should be? Right now I set it up to be very closed so I can reach the max easily, but I do run into some fatigue, and it's a bit touchy. I was wondering if maybe I should open the valve a bit and change the sensitivity of the sensor?



This is a matter of taste, I opened the valve at minimun just to feel the pressure but not so much.


----------



## DANIELE

D Halgren said:


> I also haven't found a good setting for the tilt and nod, either. Need to work with that a bit more.



Well maybe with some center offset they could be useful but playing looking at the ceiling or looking at your display at 90° is not so good for me, I think it could be good for the people that usually play without looking at the keyboard.


----------



## D Halgren

DANIELE said:


> Well maybe with some center offset they could be useful but playing looking at the ceiling or looking at your display at 90° is not so good for me, I think it could be good for the people that usually play without looking at the keyboard.


Yes, I was thinking of changing the range on these, but I still need to play with it a bit and see how useful I can make it.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

This is my first attempt at using the brass and woodwinds together since purchasing the woodwinds last week. A simple two-chord swell thingy. Not sure I can even hear the woodwinds, but I guess you wouldn't over the percussion and brass at this loudness?

I doubled brass with Caspian trombones and horns and doubled the Trumpets with Sample Modeling.


----------



## shawnsingh

I've been experimenting more with low dynamics levels and discovering a lot of great sound down there. I don't just mean ppp-pp, either... From 0-90 CC is still full of nice range of timbre


----------



## DANIELE

Is someone be able to explain me ho to achieve this run with IW:




I mean, I already did it but it sounds too loud in my orchestra and I already tried to lower the dynamics, put them very far in precedence, using the position 5 of mixed mic and so on...

The overall sound is pretty good but there is something I don't understand which prevents me from achieving exactly this sound.

Everything I tried took me near to the result I want but not enough. In the track I posted the run sounds very well placed in the orchestra, is there someone able to replicate this sound?

I used pretty much the same instruments in a 3 octave span.

The one I did is not exactly the same but it is very similar and it is an A minor harmonic run.

Thank you.


----------



## shawnsingh

Yeah I also have been trying to get woodwinds to sound better placed in the like this.

I wonder if the way you are arranging instruments across octaves might be different than the example. On the video it sounds like one section of strings does play on the higher octave. 

Also maybe experiment with piccolo as the only wind player on the highest octave, with other woodwinds on lower octave. Or on the other extreme, experiment with two players on each instrument playing in octaves (if the instruments can play that high depending on the notes in the run)

As for the mix, hard to know without hearing your version in context. On my own fanfare piece, I think I need to reduce the highest frequencies in the flutes and oboes to blend better, haven't tried that yet.


----------



## DANIELE

shawnsingh said:


> Yeah I also have been trying to get woodwinds to sound better placed in the like this.
> 
> I wonder if the way you are arranging instruments across octaves might be different than the example. On the video it sounds like one section of strings does play on the higher octave.
> 
> Also maybe experiment with piccolo as the only wind player on the highest octave, with other woodwinds on lower octave. Or on the other extreme, experiment with two players on each instrument playing in octaves (if the instruments can play that high depending on the notes in the run)
> 
> As for the mix, hard to know without hearing your version in context. On my own fanfare piece, I think I need to reduce the highest frequencies in the flutes and oboes to blend better, haven't tried that yet.



Yeah I know that putting it in context would be useful but the context actually is incomplete and I'd like to solve it with the run exposed.

I think that we could extrapolate the run in the JW track without many difficulties because there are few instruments in the background and only the trumpets tonic triad is sharing the same register.
I also thinked about the context but the more I listen to it the less I'm convinced is a matter of context.

I think it is mostly a matter of position and space, if I use IR different from studio I hear a tail to long for the upper note so I reverted back to Studio. Same thing if I put the instruments too far away in precedence.

I already tried to change the orchestration too, the run start from C, goes to the tonic and then goes up to E, I wrote it in 3 octaves:


The Piccolo is the only one able to reach the higher E so all the other instruments are below;
The flutes are one octave below;
The clarinets are one in the same octave as flutes and one another octave below;
The oboes share the same flutes octave;
Same for the violins (I and II), I didn't use the Violas here because they are doubling the cello with a rhythmic pattern underneath. I could try to put them an octave above together with the Piccolo but I'm not sure it would solve the issue.
Unfortunately I don't have the entire orchestra sheet so I have to guess. I looked at the main theme orchestral sheet (the first run after the tutti) and I saw that he puts the violins an octave below the piccolo. There are some pieces where there are 2 piccolos but I still don't think it would solve this because the piccolo already have a very piercing sound alone and in a place like this it would be too loud to use two piccolos. He uses two of them in very loud "tutti" or similar parts.

In the end if I try to put the run farther from the listener it sounds too muddy and too less definded (while in the Coruscant track is pretty clear), if I put it closer then it is clear enough but it sounds too present. I don't know how to explain myself.

Maybe we need a more advanced way to move the instruments in the library itself? For example I found out that in SM strings there is a Distance knob in the Virtual Space settings that is very useful to blend the strings in the orchestra, lately I experimented a lot with it.

I'm struggling to get this result because I feel I could, I could try also with less instruments, maybe flutes only but I want to use the same ones.


----------



## Jack McKenzie

Anyone still on the fence about Infinite Brass? I've finally managed to find the time to really dive into this awesome product! 

Infinite Brass by Aaron Venture:


----------



## shawnsingh

I posted these in the member compositions section, but I figured people looking at this thread may be interested to hear ever more examples. So here is a solo flute example and solo trumpet example, both the same song.

solo flute version
solo trumpet version


----------



## mussnig

shawnsingh said:


> I posted these in the member compositions section, but I figured people looking at this thread may be interested to hear ever more examples. So here is a solo flute example and solo trumpet example, both the same song.
> 
> solo flute version
> solo trumpet version



The trumpet sounds really great and to my ears very realistic. The only giveaway (at least to me) was the Vibrato, which was a bit too uniform ...


----------



## Markrs

shawnsingh said:


> I posted these in the member compositions section, but I figured people looking at this thread may be interested to hear ever more examples. So here is a solo flute example and solo trumpet example, both the same song.
> 
> solo flute version
> solo trumpet version


This top quality, sounds very real to me!


----------



## Geocranium

Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.


----------



## shawnsingh

Geocranium said:


> Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.



My son said "again! again!" to listen to it again. Love the bouncy character!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Geocranium said:


> Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.


Wow... You got it sounding super real


----------



## Markrs

Geocranium said:


> Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.


That is top quality!


----------



## Loïc D

Geocranium said:


> Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.


Do something, Gromit !

Top quality indeed


----------



## I like music

Geocranium said:


> Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.



Top notch.


----------



## Geocranium

Loïc D said:


> Do something, Gromit !
> 
> Top quality indeed



Haha yep. They wanted big Julian Nott vibes, the original track being from W&G.


----------



## shawnsingh

Jack McKenzie said:


> Anyone still on the fence about Infinite Brass? I've finally managed to find the time to really dive into this awesome product!
> 
> Infinite Brass by Aaron Venture:




Please do post your woodwinds video when it comes out, too!


----------



## I like music

I created a new thread, but also copy/pasting my post here for those interested in a filmic test of the infinite series. Woodwinds don't get too many exposed bits, but the brass certainly does.



What do you get when you try to mock up what might be the _finest_ 6 minutes of film music written by one of the finest composers who ever lived?

A shattered ego, crushing guilt that you tried to get a machine to play music that maybe only angels should play, and a constant desire to throw your keyboard at the computer screen.

I used only modulation for dynamics. I didn't touch expression or volume, as I wanted to get my orchestra as 'naturally' balanced as possible. I also didn't use compression etc (I don't know how, or why I should use it) and I certainly don't know how to mix/master. So this is just a straight audio export. Tips on these elements gratefully received.

*Some things I learned:*

1) If you don't have a dedicated sample for finger tremolos, you are truly up shit's creek with no paddle. *Do not try that shit at home. *Also, your wife absolutely couldn't care less, and no, you cannot buy OT's Symphonic Sphere _just_ to get those samples for a mockup.
2) Though I'm a complete musical amateur, looking at this music makes me realise just what a high level Goldsmith tended to operate on. And he wrote this shit on _paper?!_
3) I only have Hollywood Percussion Gold, so 'placing' percussion was basically impossible. I had to make do.
4) There's a cymbal roll which a friend kindly donated to me. So don't get excited thinking that HWP has this articulation.

I will say, a friend mocked the same piece up using HWO + VSL and his mockup is probably the best mockup I've ever heard. He's quite private so unfortunately I can't share his (superior) version.

*Libraries used*:

1) Infinite Brass
2) Infinite Woodwinds
3) Hollywood Percussion
4) CSS doing most of the work (sample modeling chipping in as layers in some of the faster moving stuff which CSS couldn't quite do)
5) Tears.


----------



## Supremo

Guys, 

I'm a Reaper user and have an annoying issue with note hanging in both IW and IB instruments every time I press the play button when the edit cursor is on the midi item. It doesn't happen only if I press play before the midi item starts, which is a bit inconvenient because there may be a lot of items in different tracks with Infinite instruments loaded, each such item having its own position in the project. 

I know @aaronventure is on Reaper too, so I'm curious if you have the same issue and know how to deal with it?

Thanks!


----------



## DANIELE

Supremo said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm a Reaper user and have an annoying issue with note hanging in both IW and IB instruments every time I press the play button when the edit cursor is on the midi item. It doesn't happen only if I press play before the midi item starts, which is a bit inconvenient because there may be a lot of items in different tracks with Infinite instruments loaded, each such item having its own position in the project.
> 
> I know @aaronventure is on Reaper too, so I'm curious if you have the same issue and know how to deal with it?
> 
> Thanks!



I don't have hanging notes, except for some rare cases. I had some with humanization enabled and I had one trying to build a very fast horn rip, I managed to solve this by shortening the notes.

I think you have to play with options, write to AV and he will be able to give you some advice.


----------



## Jamus

Supremo said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm a Reaper user and have an annoying issue with note hanging in both IW and IB instruments every time I press the play button when the edit cursor is on the midi item. It doesn't happen only if I press play before the midi item starts, which is a bit inconvenient because there may be a lot of items in different tracks with Infinite instruments loaded, each such item having its own position in the project.
> 
> I know @aaronventure is on Reaper too, so I'm curious if you have the same issue and know how to deal with it?
> 
> Thanks!



What is the note off data like? I believe there's a plugin somewhere in Reaper that sends note off messages on playback stop, which could help while you troubleshoot the issue. I do note have this issue, and I also use Reaper.


----------



## xenos

I like music said:


> I created a new thread, but also copy/pasting my post here for those interested in a filmic test of the infinite series. Woodwinds don't get too many exposed bits, but the brass certainly does.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you get when you try to mock up what might be the _finest_ 6 minutes of film music written by one of the finest composers who ever lived?
> 
> A shattered ego, crushing guilt that you tried to get a machine to play music that maybe only angels should play, and a constant desire to throw your keyboard at the computer screen.
> 
> I used only modulation for dynamics. I didn't touch expression or volume, as I wanted to get my orchestra as 'naturally' balanced as possible. I also didn't use compression etc (I don't know how, or why I should use it) and I certainly don't know how to mix/master. So this is just a straight audio export. Tips on these elements gratefully received.
> 
> *Some things I learned:*
> 
> 1) If you don't have a dedicated sample for finger tremolos, you are truly up shit's creek with no paddle. *Do not try that shit at home. *Also, your wife absolutely couldn't care less, and no, you cannot buy OT's Symphonic Sphere _just_ to get those samples for a mockup.
> 2) Though I'm a complete musical amateur, looking at this music makes me realise just what a high level Goldsmith tended to operate on. And he wrote this shit on _paper?!_
> 3) I only have Hollywood Percussion Gold, so 'placing' percussion was basically impossible. I had to make do.
> 4) There's a cymbal roll which a friend kindly donated to me. So don't get excited thinking that HWP has this articulation.
> 
> I will say, a friend mocked the same piece up using HWO + VSL and his mockup is probably the best mockup I've ever heard. He's quite private so unfortunately I can't share his (superior) version.
> 
> *Libraries used*:
> 
> 1) Infinite Brass
> 2) Infinite Woodwinds
> 3) Hollywood Percussion
> 4) CSS doing most of the work (sample modeling chipping in as layers in some of the faster moving stuff which CSS couldn't quite do)
> 5) Tears.




Hey , this is insane work ! , Sounds really fantastic for me ! Wow. By the way Jerry is one of my favourite composers maybe even number 1 . Can i as You is it possible to get midi from Your track ? Of course only for studying purposes? That would be great. 
Anyways . Once again , Really sounds great but its only my opinion


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I created a new thread, but also copy/pasting my post here for those interested in a filmic test of the infinite series. Woodwinds don't get too many exposed bits, but the brass certainly does.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you get when you try to mock up what might be the _finest_ 6 minutes of film music written by one of the finest composers who ever lived?
> 
> A shattered ego, crushing guilt that you tried to get a machine to play music that maybe only angels should play, and a constant desire to throw your keyboard at the computer screen.
> 
> I used only modulation for dynamics. I didn't touch expression or volume, as I wanted to get my orchestra as 'naturally' balanced as possible. I also didn't use compression etc (I don't know how, or why I should use it) and I certainly don't know how to mix/master. So this is just a straight audio export. Tips on these elements gratefully received.
> 
> *Some things I learned:*
> 
> 1) If you don't have a dedicated sample for finger tremolos, you are truly up shit's creek with no paddle. *Do not try that shit at home. *Also, your wife absolutely couldn't care less, and no, you cannot buy OT's Symphonic Sphere _just_ to get those samples for a mockup.
> 2) Though I'm a complete musical amateur, looking at this music makes me realise just what a high level Goldsmith tended to operate on. And he wrote this shit on _paper?!_
> 3) I only have Hollywood Percussion Gold, so 'placing' percussion was basically impossible. I had to make do.
> 4) There's a cymbal roll which a friend kindly donated to me. So don't get excited thinking that HWP has this articulation.
> 
> I will say, a friend mocked the same piece up using HWO + VSL and his mockup is probably the best mockup I've ever heard. He's quite private so unfortunately I can't share his (superior) version.
> 
> *Libraries used*:
> 
> 1) Infinite Brass
> 2) Infinite Woodwinds
> 3) Hollywood Percussion
> 4) CSS doing most of the work (sample modeling chipping in as layers in some of the faster moving stuff which CSS couldn't quite do)
> 5) Tears.




I loved this track, and I love it again. Outstanding work!!

I would like to write like this, it is one of the purposes of my life.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I loved this track, and I love it again. Outstanding work!!
> 
> I would like to write like this, it is one of the purposes of my life.


Exactly! If I could be on my deathbed and I wrote something like this (even if 10 percent of the quality) I'd die happy!


----------



## El Buhdai

Geocranium said:


> Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.



Jeeeeeeeez! That's awesome!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> Exactly! If I could be on my deathbed and I wrote something like this (even if 10 percent of the quality) I'd die happy!



Your mockups continue to impress, my friend. I can't wait to hear the next one!


----------



## duringtheafter

Geocranium said:


> Pending any minor tweaks my client asks for, my brass band piece is finished. All brass heard is IB.


How did you program those fast/loud trombone slides (velocity vs. cc1)? I seem to only be able to generate a very slow glissando at lower velocity.


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> Jeeeeeeeez! That's awesome!



I'm envisioning you had your jaw dropped open for 9 days, speechless. Glad you recovered now!


----------



## Geocranium

duringtheafter said:


> How did you program those fast/loud trombone slides (velocity vs. cc1)? I seem to only be able to generate a very slow glissando at lower velocity.



The trombone glisses that are a half step are done with the mod wheel, and the ones that are bigger leaps than that are done with a very low velocity and bumping up CC1 during the transition.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I've found manually controlling the vibrato to increase on slower passages to get a nice sound. Works especially nice on the Oboe and Clarinet. It somehow makes the legato transition sound more natural to may ears. Very cool.


----------



## Pontus Rufelt

Wrote this short piece today and thought I’d share it here since I’m using quite a lot of infinite woodwinds and brass, layered with a lot of Abbey Road One which helps a lot to add some color, room and liveliness. Really enjoying how playable the infinite stuff is.


----------



## I like music

Pontus Rufelt said:


> Wrote this short piece today and thought I’d share it here since I’m using quite a lot of infinite woodwinds and brass, layered with a lot of Abbey Road One which helps a lot to add some color, room and liveliness. Really enjoying how playable the infinite stuff is.



Will check this out once I'm not on my phone. You've already got everyone's curiosity with that title! Tell us more about the Sgt!


----------



## TGV

Pontus Rufelt said:


> Wrote this short piece today


That's a good tune for a Aardman-type movie, and a great sound, too. Strings could be pulled a bit earlier, perhaps.


----------



## nabemon

Hi.

I made manual divisi KSP script for Infinite Brass / Woodwinds.
With Expression Maps, you can assign each note to the part you want to play.
It's a simple and not as flexible as existing great scripts but lighter and more accurate in dividing notes.

I'm not confident it's helpful for other users.
But if it serves you, I'm so happy.

You can download manual divisi script and Expression Maps from GitHub.
Here's URL:









GitHub - nabemon/KSP_InfiniteRouter: KSP Multi Script for manual divisi of Infinite Brass/Woodwinds


KSP Multi Script for manual divisi of Infinite Brass/Woodwinds - GitHub - nabemon/KSP_InfiniteRouter: KSP Multi Script for manual divisi of Infinite Brass/Woodwinds




github.com


----------



## porrasm

How do you think the Infinite Brass compares against other brass flagships (Spitfire symphony, Modern scoring brass which is 50% off!)? I currently have Cinebrass Core and BBCSO but neither feels "right" for me, so I'm looking for a new brass library.


----------



## Sean

porrasm said:


> How do you think the Infinite Brass compares against other brass flagships (Spitfire symphony, Modern scoring brass which is 50% off!)? I currently have Cinebrass Core and BBCSO but neither feels "right" for me, so I'm looking for a new brass library.


Spitfire Symphony Brass and BBCSO brass feel similar to me, they lack the louder dynamics and have a lot of room sound. Can't comment on MSB


----------



## DANIELE

porrasm said:


> How do you think the Infinite Brass compares against other brass flagships (Spitfire symphony, Modern scoring brass which is 50% off!)? I currently have Cinebrass Core and BBCSO but neither feels "right" for me, so I'm looking for a new brass library.



They don't imho. Infinite Brass is all another kind of library, I recently finished another Star Wars inspired track (Battle Over Coruscant) and I'm amazed on what I was able to do with IB.

I'll post the track and the other ones I promised soon I hope, I have to upload them on YouTube first.


----------



## porrasm

DANIELE said:


> They don't imho. Infinite Brass is all another kind of library, I recently finished another Star Wars inspired track (Battle Over Coruscant) and I'm amazed on what I was able to do with IB.
> 
> I'll post the track and the other ones I promised soon I hope, I have to upload them on YouTube first.


Do you think IB is easier to use than other libraries?


----------



## Sean

porrasm said:


> Do you think IB is easier to use than other libraries?


I think it is. It's a lot easier to not have to worry about keyswitches or having different tracks for different articulations. Even if you don't want to play everything in it's still easier to input notes and program them.


----------



## Woodie1972

nabemon said:


> Hi.
> 
> I made manual divisi KSP script for Infinite Brass / Woodwinds.
> With Expression Maps, you can assign each note to the part you want to play.
> It's a simple and not as flexible as existing great scripts but lighter and more accurate in dividing notes.
> 
> I'm not confident it's helpful for other users.
> But if it serves you, I'm so happy.
> 
> You can download manual divisi script and Expression Maps from GitHub.
> Here's URL:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GitHub - nabemon/KSP_InfiniteRouter: KSP Multi Script for manual divisi of Infinite Brass/Woodwinds
> 
> 
> KSP Multi Script for manual divisi of Infinite Brass/Woodwinds - GitHub - nabemon/KSP_InfiniteRouter: KSP Multi Script for manual divisi of Infinite Brass/Woodwinds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> github.com


This looks interesting. Can you tell a bit more about how this script works in Cubase? Not the technical part, but in every days work.
TIA!


----------



## nabemon

Woodie1972 said:


> This looks interesting. Can you tell a bit more about how this script works in Cubase? Not the technical part, but in every days work.
> TIA!



Thank you for having interest in this tool.
Usually I write a rough sketch by playing sketching instrument such as The Orchestra. Then make detailed arrangement in each instrument by copying and editing MIDI notes. (Actually I'm not good at playing keyboard)

Using this script and maps, I can almost handle copied notes like an ensemble instruments like CSB or CineBrass. The difference is setting which part the notes should be played in by Note Attribute of Expression Maps. The script also follows MIDI CC and routes it into each part. Without it, I must copy and paste notes or and draw CC in every tracks. That's a tough work for me.

The attached images is a simple example of how it worked in my production.






Actually there are a lot of KSP MIDI Router or AutoDivisi tools that are much better and more flexible than mine. But they are so complex that they frequently cause note and CC dropping when using them in Infinite Series. Another option is DivisiMate but it seems to assume realtime playing I'm not good at. That's why I made my own simple tool.

I think this script may not be so useful for most composers.
But if this information is helpful for you, I'm so glad.


----------



## Woodie1972

Thanks for your reply. I will download it and see if I can use it. Most of the time I write a piano score and orchestrate from that, maybe it's handy for distributing chords or polyphonic phrases as well.


----------



## DANIELE

porrasm said:


> Do you think IB is easier to use than other libraries?



As Sean already told you it is easier because you don't have to mess with keyswitches so the composing process is much more linear from your brain to the midi editor or notation editor.

But, that said, you don't have the sound you want out of the box, you have to work mainly with note length, dynamics and vibrato. After you learned to use the library to get the sound you want it will give you a huge satisfaction.

The other libraries have everything already baked in and you cannot get all the shades in between.


----------



## porrasm

DANIELE said:


> As Sean already told you it is easier because you don't have to mess with keyswitches so the composing process is much more linear from your brain to the midi editor or notation editor.
> 
> But, that said, you don't have the sound you want out of the box, you have to work mainly with note length, dynamics and vibrato. After you learned to use the library to get the sound you want it will give you a huge satisfaction.
> 
> The other libraries have everything already baked in and you cannot get all the shades in between.


Thanks for the response. From this it sounds like the workflow is in between of a traditional sample library and SWAM. I will now seriously consider buying IB, my other option is the Modern Scoring Brass.


----------



## ScoringFilm

I have just updated my Divisi MultiScript to include 6 parts and humanising Velocity or CC1. After reading through some of the posts here this should be useful to Infinite Brass users.

J


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I made a very short test with the trumpets layering one instance of the Solo CSB Trumpet and an instance of 1 trumpet from sample modeling on top, quietly. I sent them all to the same instance of Seventh Heaven and EQ's the entire trumpet group removing t=some of the mid and all the lows. Then I placed them right with panagement 2. 
How do you guys place and layer IB? Sometimes I feel I need to layer with something else just to get a grittier, less clean room sound.


----------



## Raab

So I just jumped aboard the Infinite train and got myself Infinite Brass.
I'm really happy so far and totally embrace the sound and playability. It feels like finally coming home.

Lots of people (VI composers, mockup guys) recommend to set up a negative track delay for all the orchestral tracks inside the DAW to make it tighter. I can see that it might be necessary if you just copy & paste MIDI files for mockups but not really for playing everything in manually, which is what I do. Any specific thought on that regarding IB?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Raab said:


> So I just jumped aboard the Infinite train and got myself Infinite Brass.
> I'm really happy so far and totally embrace the sound and playability. It feels like finally coming home.
> 
> Lots of people (VI composers, mockup guys) recommend to set up a negative track delay for all the orchestral tracks inside the DAW to make it tighter. I can see that it might be necessary if you just copy & paste MIDI files for mockups but not really for playing everything in manually, which is what I do. Any specific thought on that regarding IB?



I would recommend a small general track delay for all tracks. I would set it somewhere around -40ms. There's always a bit of "pre-noise" before the actual note in pretty much all instruments. The caveat with the Infinite series is that has no recorded legato and instead between the 127 velocities there's a different length legato for each one that varies in length and intensity. Meaning you can't really set up a general midi delay for the legato and instead has to do that by ear on a case by case basis.


----------



## Pontus Rufelt

I like music said:


> Will check this out once I'm not on my phone. You've already got everyone's curiosity with that title! Tell us more about the Sgt!


It’s a fictional character my girlfriend and I came up with!


----------



## duringtheafter

Happy almost New Year!
With a couple weeks off work, I decided to dig in to Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and see how it could handle something a bit bombastic (thank you for those fff's and ffff's and sfff's, Mr. Stravinsky!) by mocking up the Finale to _The Firebird Suite._ I used a free MIDI file (a pretty good one, publicly available) as a starting place. Everything here was programmed, not played.

View attachment Infinite Firebird Finale 24bit.mp3


ALL FEEDBACK WELCOME!

Longer details:
All brass and WW are Infinite (no other libraries layered in). LASS 2.0 for strings except where I needed more complicated patches (e.g., minor third or perfect fourth trills) in which case I turned to Spitfire Studio Strings. True Strike for all percussion. 
A little bit of EQ on IW & IB by section (although I may remove it and see how it sounds); some Altiverb Teldex to add some tails, a bit of tape noise. That's it.

I did not change vibrato rates/depths at all, but might if I develop more patience to go back to it. That said, there is not too much that is exposed in the piece in a way that needs much vibrato variation (YMMV). Even the horn solo at the beginning plays nicely without it.

Lessons learned:
- the libraries are pretty friggin' awesome. 
- I probably spent a bit more time programming this than I would with other libraries, simply because there are so many (infinite?) ways to tweak. As others have mentioned, it's akin to being able to ask a specific player to hit a note a tiny bit shorter / softer / brassier / what-have-you and having them do it, as opposed to cycling through 3 dynamic layers and calling it a day. (Related note: learning how velocities and modulation interact is a big key to the library and how to tame the 'buzziness' of the upper brass dynamics - except when you want it there.)
- timpani rolls at ff with an fff orchestra are going to be muddy. At first I kept scaling back the volume (despite the ff and fff dynamics in the parts), but listening to real recordings confirm that the louder timpani rolls in my mockup are close to what happens in orchestral settings when the whole ensemble is wailing away at high dynamics. (If you have beliefs/suggestions otherwise, please share!)
- After completing the mockup, I listened to the VSL version... While completed long before the modern tweaks to their libraries, I was struck by how not-great the VSL version is (and the more 'separate' timpani didn't work for me... sounds like it's in another space ).

For those still thinking about the library, I wholeheartedly endorse it. 

Random stats:
I'm loading almost all IW & IB instruments into my template (including saxes); by themselves, they're taking ~8GB of RAM (the perc + strings add another ~16GB). Load time for just IW & IB instruments into Cubase 9.5 is about 30 seconds.


----------



## vicontrolu

Just imagine when we get the strings. No more looking for min3rd trills here and there. Cant wait!


----------



## Jamus

vicontrolu said:


> Just imagine when we get the strings. No more looking for min3rd trills here and there. Cant wait!


Seriously! I expect I'll go overboard with third/fourth trills Ravel style simply because I will be able to 🤣😂 Never have been able to recreate those string trill soundbeds 😟 But when IS comes.. It's going to get lush up in here.


----------



## DANIELE

I don't know where you live and I'm not a "whishes person" but I'd like to wish you happy new year, to all the infinite people out here!! Thank you for this thread, one of the best thread ever in my forum experience (all the forum I'm subscribed to).


----------



## I like music

We need csw levels of speculation on this thread. Sooooo @aaronventure we releasing in Jan? 😁


----------



## Woodie1972

Jamus said:


> Seriously! I expect I'll go overboard with third/fourth trills Ravel style simply because I will be able to 🤣😂 Never have been able to recreate those string trill soundbeds 😟 But when IS comes.. It's going to get lush up in here.


Aren't those trills included in Berlin strings?


----------



## vicontrolu

Maybe but can you go from ppp to fff convincingly while trilling? Imagine those waves coming at you


----------



## Woodie1972

Haha, I see your point! Apart from the fact Berlin strings isn't the loudest out there, compared to some other libraries, this is indeed pretty difficult to achieve. Maybe a library like Lass and then in Dorico, where Dorico generates the trills for you in case there aren't any pre-programmed available.


----------



## Jamus

Woodie1972 said:


> Aren't those trills included in Berlin strings?


Only whole/half tone for strings 😟


----------



## I like music

Though the symphonic sphere provides them upto a 4th (maybe 5th?)

Thst said, bring it on with the strings here!


----------



## prodigalson

I like music said:


> Though the symphonic sphere provides them upto a 4th (maybe 5th?)
> 
> Thst said, bring it on with the strings here!


Also Afflatus, SCS and SStS all have 3rd and 4th trills.


----------



## I like music

prodigalson said:


> Also Afflatus, SCS and SStS all have 3rd and 4th trills.


Would love for CSS to add more articulations + have IS. I'd be sorted.


----------



## porrasm

Jamus said:


> Only whole/half tone for strings 😟


SSS has 3rd minor trills, but if you're looking for dry sound it's pretty rare.


----------



## DivingInSpace

So, it is 2021. Is the strings out yet? Maybe later today?


----------



## Raab

You all have a great new year 2021!
Does anybody know how you can assign the humanization in IB to respond to a pedal? I've of course assigned the pedal on my Kurzweil to CC65 but I'd like it to be temporarily. If I release the pedal, the humanization stays on and I've got to manually switch it off through the GUI.
That way I could decide whether I'd like to play a unison line with all trombones (humanization on) or all parts on my own (humanization off) with my own sloppy "human"-humanization.


----------



## Jamus

porrasm said:


> SSS has 3rd minor trills, but if you're looking for dry sound it's pretty rare.


I was close to committing to one of the libraries with those fancy trills last year right before I discovered Infinite. Now I'm committed to never purchasing a purely sample based library ever again. Too much fiddling for my ADD brain 😂 just let my hands do the work on the fly otherwise I'll get nowhere!


----------



## DANIELE

DivingInSpace said:


> So, it is 2021. Is the strings out yet? Maybe later today?


I'm sure we will have to wait only a few days and...here we go again!!


----------



## shawnsingh

I wouldn't get hopes up. I suspect it's a tough task for a one person army.


----------



## DivingInSpace

shawnsingh said:


> I wouldn't get hopes up. I suspect it's a tough task for a one person army.


It definitely is, but it is fun to be impatient!


----------



## PerryD

A short IB ensemble arranging experiment. * Real flugelhorn & Trumpet added. *


----------



## RogiervG

PerryD said:


> A short IB ensemble arranging experiment.



Nice attempt, but I hate to say it: it needs more work, it sounds not very realistic (more synthy) Especially the beginning till the tutti brass ensemble starts (near 0:29 seconds in).


----------



## shawnsingh

RogiervG said:


> Nice attempt, but I hate to say it: it needs more work, it sounds not very realistic (more synthy) Especially the beginning till the tutti brass ensemble starts (near 0:29 seconds in).



Partly agree, though I only listened on my phone yet. Still, we have to acknowledge the number of good quality infinite examples PerryD has done, more prolific than anyone else here and most sound really great and also very creative.


----------



## RogiervG

shawnsingh said:


> Partly agree, though I only listened on my phone yet. Still, we have to acknowledge the number of good quality infinite examples PerryD has done, more prolific than anyone else here and most sound really great and also very creative.


Sure, that's totally true.. Perry did some very nice examples.
But this time it's (for the first part) not that good sounding.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I couldn't resist.

Here's my kinda-quick version of Love Theme by Nino Rota. It's not perfect and Infinite Brass wouldn't be my first choice for something like this. The arrangement is a lot simpler and not as nice as Perry's.


----------



## PerryD

RogiervG said:


> Sure, that's totally true.. Perry did some very nice examples.
> But this time it's (for the first part) not that good sounding.


I think everyone here loves to hear nice comments about their music efforts. This is also a great place to learn from well placed criticism. A good place to hang out with fellow music folks.


----------



## Jamus

RogiervG said:


> Sure, that's totally true.. Perry did some very nice examples.
> But this time it's (for the first part) not that good sounding.


For all that is good about Infinite, it's damn hard to tame the buzz of those higher dynamics.

I wonder, PerryD if you had the HQ button activated? If I recall that is supposed to add definition to the high end at the cost of CPU. Could help?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Sometimes it feels like there's a threshold on getting that buzz and anything below that threshold sounds too smooth or silky. Anyone else feel that way? lol. Like, the buzz doesn't really come in until your really far up the modwheel.


----------



## Woodie1972

I agree with you: when I'm able to tame the buzz, it's always at the cost of overall sound, which easily ends up being dull. Avoiding the highest dynamics is a good way to get rid of this too, so both in Cubase and Dorico I will never go higher then 80%/ff in written dynamics, where both go up top ffff, which luckily leaves a bit of headroom for these kind of libraries.


----------



## PerryD

RogiervG said:


> Nice attempt, but I hate to say it: it needs more work, it sounds not very realistic (more synthy) Especially the beginning till the tutti brass ensemble starts (near 0:29 seconds in).


I added real flugelhorn & trumpet. Perhaps a _touch_ better. It was just an experiment anyway.


----------



## porrasm

I just got Infinite Brass but I've no clue what would be the best way to set it up in a template. Do you have any examples? I want the possibility to play the 6 horns at the same time but also I want to be able to use all the instruments individually as well. Is the best option to just load up the (e.g. in the case of horns) all the horns twice, once for an ensemble MIDI channel and once for a solo MIDI channel?


----------



## mussnig

porrasm said:


> I just got Infinite Brass but I've no clue what would be the best way to set it up in a template. Do you have any examples? I want the possibility to play the 6 horns at the same time but also I want to be able to use all the instruments individually as well. Is the best option to just load up the (e.g. in the case of horns) all the horns twice, once for an ensemble MIDI channel and once for a solo MIDI channel?


I am thinking about the same question. In general however, IB instruments use so little RAM that it shouldn't matter much if your solution in the end will have certain patches loaded multiple times.

The thing I am wondering about the most is how to make realistic Ensembles without the need to play everything multiple times. Obviously I should use the humanize feature of IB but afaik it doesn't humanize Midi CCs (please correct me if I am wrong). So in particular I am looking for a way to humanize my Midi CC curves ...


----------



## porrasm

mussnig said:


> I am thinking about the same question. In general however, IB instruments use so little RAM that it shouldn't matter much if your solution in the end will have certain patches loaded multiple times.
> 
> The thing I am wondering about the most is how to make realistic Ensembles without the need to play everything multiple times. Obviously I should use the humanize feature of IB but afaik it doesn't humanize Midi CCs (please correct me if I am wrong). So in particular I am looking for a way to humanize my Midi CC curves ...


I have played with IB for 5 minutes now as I refuse to touch it before it's in my template so I'm not an expert on it :D. But currently maybe the best way would be to just record once, copy the MIDI and apply humanization using randomization on the curves etc? As for the RAM and CPU usage, they are very low indeed. So probably the dozens of patches I will use will still take less resources than a few Spitfire patches.

I got an idea for a program in which you would play MIDI on a single channel (e.g. 1) and it would then send out humanized outputs on channels 1-6 (or 1-3 or any other combination of channels) either immediately, or as playback. I might do something like this if I have the time and need for it in the future. I've played with MIDI programming a little, in fact I made microphone whistling to SWAM Violin converter but it ended up horribly.


----------



## yiph2

What about just putting the instruments individually, and then select multiple tracks to play/record?


----------



## mussnig

yiph2 said:


> What about just putting the instruments individually, and then select multiple tracks to play/record?


Not enough huamnization. At least I don't know how to achieve humanization of Midi CC without humanizing each individually


----------



## Trash Panda

mussnig said:


> Not enough huamnization. At least I don't know how to achieve humanization of Midi CC without humanizing each individually


ReaPlugs can achieve that. The MIDI JS plugins can apply LFOs to any MIDI CC, humanize timing and velocity and a bunch of other stuff all in real time. Works with any host that can use VSTs.

Load up some of these ahead of the instrument in Kontakt and apply it to things like CC1 and if you're feeling particularly adventurous, the tuning knob to create minor variations in pitch, and it should do the job. I kinda want to experiment with this when I'm done with work. 



REAPER | ReaPlugs


----------



## mussnig

Trash Panda said:


> ReaPlugs can achieve that. The MIDI JS plugins can apply LFOs to any MIDI CC, humanize timing and velocity and a bunch of other stuff all in real time. Works with any host that can use VSTs.
> 
> Load up some of these ahead of the instrument in Kontakt and apply it to things like CC1 and if you're feeling particularly adventurous, the tuning knob to create minor variations in pitch, and it should do the job. I kinda want to experiment with this when I'm done with work.
> 
> 
> 
> REAPER | ReaPlugs


Thank you - now if something like this would exist for Ableton it would be perfect. I've been looking at Max4Live devices but unfortunately, many of them don't have very informative descriptions ...

EDIT: Sorry, just saw that it probably works with every DAW. Thank you again, I will definitely try it!


----------



## DANIELE

Finally I managed to upload the first of the last three track I made with IB 1.5 and IW 2.0.

The video took almost 6 hours of rendering but I hope that you find the track useful, especially for the ones that need to know what those libraries are capable of. I'll post the other two tracks as soon as possible. The Star Wars one is very useful to see those instruments in action.



I hope you will enjoy it.


----------



## Jamus

mussnig said:


> I am thinking about the same question. In general however, IB instruments use so little RAM that it shouldn't matter much if your solution in the end will have certain patches loaded multiple times.
> 
> The thing I am wondering about the most is how to make realistic Ensembles without the need to play everything multiple times. Obviously I should use the humanize feature of IB but afaik it doesn't humanize Midi CCs (please correct me if I am wrong). So in particular I am looking for a way to humanize my Midi CC curves ...


Apply LFOs or CC curve change plugins in your FX chain before the Kontakt. I use a plugin called MidiShaper by Cable Guys which lets you add envelopes or LFOs to CCs which helps with randomising CCs.

I frequently use Reaper plugins like the velocity and humanization tool, midi tool for random pitch variance, Midi delays with LFOs on the delay time to create ever changing attack times. Helpful with SWAM string ensembles, since so much randomness is needed.


----------



## Trash Panda

mussnig said:


> Thank you - now if something like this would exist for Ableton it would be perfect. I've been looking at Max4Live devices but unfortunately, many of them don't have very informative descriptions ...
> 
> EDIT: Sorry, just saw that it probably works with every DAW. Thank you again, I will definitely try it!


I did some experimenting and found that just altering the Tune parameter between -0.03 to 0.03 for each additional instrument and tweaking the humanization values was enough to help the ensemble sound huge without having to mess with velocity or CC1 randomization.


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> I did some experimenting and found that just altering the Tune parameter between -0.03 to 0.03 for each additional instrument and tweaking the humanization values was enough to help the ensemble sound huge without having to mess with velocity or CC1 randomization.



That figure you gave, is a static detune/tweak in Kontakt?

I was doing it the long/slow way around. Basically altering the pitchbend depending on the phrase and how "tired" I believe the player would be!


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> That figure you gave, is a static detune/tweak in Kontakt?
> 
> I was doing it the long/slow way around. Basically altering the pitchbend depending on the phrase and how "tired" I believe the player would be!


Yeah. Shift+click and drag on the Tune knob. I try to give each instrument its own value (horn 1 at 0, horn 2 at 0.01, horn 3 at -0.01, etc.). You can start to hear the detuning at values beyond +/- 0.05, but that gets you up to 11 instances without duplicate tuning values.


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> Yeah. Shift+click and drag on the Tune knob. I try to give each instrument its own value (horn 1 at 0, horn 2 at 0.01, horn 3 at -0.01, etc.). You can start to hear the detuning at values beyond +/- 0.05, but that gets you up to 11 instances without duplicate tuning values.


Great! Will try that for sure!


----------



## Ivan Duch

Anyone using BBCSO as well? I wonder what tips you might have for mixing the infinite series with it? 

Studio mics + reverbs + eq?


----------



## Zane Smith

Ivan Duch said:


> Anyone using BBCSO as well? I wonder what tips you might have for mixing the infinite series with it?
> 
> Studio mics + reverbs + eq?


I do in fact use BBCSO but haven't used it with the infinite series yet. Hoping to do so soon and wishing upon god I can salvage the brass from BBCSO


----------



## Ivan Duch

Zane Smith said:


> I do in fact use BBCSO but haven't used it with the infinite series yet. Hoping to do so soon and wishing upon god I can salvage the brass from BBCSO


The solo horn pp dynamic sounds nice, the other dynamic layer has a nice timbre but the legato transitions seem quite broken, the rest is decent for what it does, the main issue is the lack of dynamic layers and bad transitions. My idea was to use infinite brass as the main one and layer the other one. I quite like the room in BBCSO.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Finally I managed to upload the first of the last three track I made with IB 1.5 and IW 2.0.
> 
> The video took almost 6 hours of rendering but I hope that you find the track useful, especially for the ones that need to know what those libraries are capable of. I'll post the other two tracks as soon as possible. The Star Wars one is very useful to see those instruments in action.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you will enjoy it.



Awesome!


----------



## PerryD

I had really looked forward to the release of CSW. I have all of Alex's other libraries. Great stuff. I think I'm pretty happy with IWW though. I added a woodwinds intro to a piece I have been playing with. This is just IWW, IB and S&ES. All using a breath controller. I have more fun playing parts than programming them.


----------



## FireGS

There's a comparison between CSW, BWW, and IW on the CSW thread here:





__





Cinematic Studio Woodwinds


I almost bought Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds last month, but finally decided to wait for CSW... I hope I made the correct decision! I can't wait to have it! Duuuhuhudeee you saved yourself a big throwaway. The legato on SSW is very bad. We'll all wait for CSW together. Kumbaya




vi-control.net





I really think IW is still as good, if not better for its flexibility. The tone is really good on IW, and I think the demo posted in that thread needed better programming, and it would have easily beaten the other two with CSW in close second. I own neither library yet, I'm just going by my ears. I have loyalty discounts from both vendors burning a hole in my pocket.


----------



## Ivan Duch

PerryD said:


> I had really looked forward to the release of CSW. I have all of Alex's other libraries. Great stuff. I think I'm pretty happy with IWW though. I added a woodwinds intro to a piece I have been playing with. This is just IWW, IB and S&ES. All using a breath controller. I have more fun playing parts than programming them.



Sounds awesome! S&ES sounds particularly good in this but I've heard bad demos of it, what's your experience with that library?


----------



## styledelk

I searched in the thread, but has anyone been using IW/IB with a Roland Aerophone? I have one arriving soon. How well does it work?
I have the teControl BBC2 already, but I haven't really been happy with it with other libraries yet.


----------



## PerryD

Ivan Duch said:


> Sounds awesome! S&ES sounds particularly good in this but I've heard bad demos of it, what's your experience with that library?


Thanks! For lyrical passages, S&ES is the best of the string libraries I own, including BBCSO, SCS and CSS. I am biased to libraries that respond well to real time playing with breath control and minimal keyswitches. I use external reverb, usually Liquidsonics or FabFilter.


----------



## matthieuL

How do Infinite instruments sound with raw samples (without the provided reverb) in MIR pro ? Are there examples ?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

matthieuL said:


> How do Infinite instruments sound with raw samples (without the provided reverb) in MIR pro ? Are there examples ?



I don't think there are any specific examples of MIR. Not sure I would recommend using IB without the supplied IRs. If you want to use it with an external reverb I would use the studio room with the closest setting. It's not that Infinite is recorded in a small/silent stage (like VSL) it recorded BONEDRY and extremely close, as close as you can get and still capture the general character of the instrument without anything else. Then in conjunction with the IRs and the programming, it's kind of been stitch back together to get the proper sound and playability. With the studio room and close setting, you might get something closer to VSL that could work better with MIR than without any IRs at all.

If you have MIR and want to test it yourself I can send a very quick dry recording that you could experiment with.


----------



## FireGS

So here's a little demo I did with everything you hear in MIR's Sage hall. I contacted Aaron a few weeks back specifically asking how one could get nearly an "anechoic" sound out of IB/IW for use in MIR - and his solution was this:

You can disable the built-in IRs by going into the Edit Mode (wrench icon).

1. Enable Mixed Mic (this disables the triple convolution system)
2. Click the wrench icon.
3. Bypass the convolution unit on the Insert Effects tab.

If you wish to revert to Infinite's convolution, simply disable Mixed Mic.

I've done the above with the track you hear, and all brass and winds are AV. Here's a look at MIR:


----------



## Beans

FireGS said:


>



My kid just screamed "ZELDA!" from two rooms over and ran into my office.


----------



## FireGS

Beans said:


> My kid just screamed "ZELDA!" from two rooms over and ran into my office.


Baaaaahahahaha, I don't know you, but I love your kiddo. In a non-creepy way


----------



## Mikro93

@FireGS this is such a nice cover, thanks!


----------



## matthieuL

Jonathan Moray said:


> I don't think there are any specific examples of MIR. Not sure I would recommend using IB without the supplied IRs. If you want to use it with an external reverb I would use the studio room with the closest setting. It's not that Infinite is recorded in a small/silent stage (like VSL) it recorded BONEDRY and extremely close, as close as you can get and still capture the general character of the instrument without anything else. Then in conjunction with the IRs and the programming, it's kind of been stitch back together to get the proper sound and playability. With the studio room and close setting, you might get something closer to VSL that could work better with MIR than without any IRs at all.
> 
> If you have MIR and want to test it yourself I can send a very quick dry recording that you could experiment with.


Thanks for your advice. Yes, if you have time, a dry recording could interest me, many thanks !


----------



## matthieuL

FireGS said:


> So here's a little demo I did with everything you hear in MIR's Sage hall. I contacted Aaron a few weeks back specifically asking how one could get nearly an "anechoic" sound out of IB/IW for use in MIR - and his solution was this:
> 
> You can disable the built-in IRs by going into the Edit Mode (wrench icon).
> 
> 1. Enable Mixed Mic (this disables the triple convolution system)
> 2. Click the wrench icon.
> 3. Bypass the convolution unit on the Insert Effects tab.
> 
> If you wish to revert to Infinite's convolution, simply disable Mixed Mic.
> 
> I've done the above with the track you hear, and all brass and winds are AV. Here's a look at MIR:



Thank you too !


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@matthieuL here's a very quick thing with one horn and one trumpet. A few short notes, some marcato, and some longer more lyrical lines. Hope it's enough. I might remove this later because I don't want to put IB in a bad light since this is not what it sounds like usually and if someone stumbles upon this without reading the full context...


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Been comparing IW to some of the samples coming out of the CSW thread and as much as IW is leading the way in terms of playability (though the CSW legato seems pretty flexible), I think it has some ways to go on tone. Hopefully Aaron continues to improve that aspect (one benefit of buying it is you know you'll get improvements for life!).


----------



## Ziffles

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Been comparing IW to some of the samples coming out of the CSW thread and as much as IW is leading the way in terms of playability (though the CSW legato seems pretty flexible), I think it has some ways to go on tone. Hopefully Aaron continues to improve that aspect (one benefit of buying it is you know you'll get improvements for life!).


Yep. I feel like IW still definitely has more room for improvement than the brass, but I'm looking forward to improvements to both of them. More effects (shakes, doit/falls, overblow for winds), faster note transitions for pop/jazz stuff, and more rooms are on my wishlist.

That said, if he also makes a separate studio brass/sax set that's completely re-recorded I'll still be all over that.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Been comparing IW to some of the samples coming out of the CSW thread and as much as IW is leading the way in terms of playability (though the CSW legato seems pretty flexible), I think it has some ways to go on tone. Hopefully Aaron continues to improve that aspect (one benefit of buying it is you know you'll get improvements for life!).



Yes, if tone is your main concern I would probably say you're better off with something else. I wouldn't say the tone in IW is bad, it's just different and not directly what you would associate with most sample libraries.

But, if you are more interested in composition, orchestration, flexibility, and writing I would say IW is the better option. Less fiddling with bugs, bad samples and transitions, inconsistencies, etc.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes, if tone is your main concern I would probably say you're better off with something else. I wouldn't say the tone in IW is bad, it's just different and not directly what you would associate with most sample libraries.
> 
> But, if you are more interested in composition, orchestration, flexibility, and writing I would say IW is the better option. Less fiddling with bugs, bad samples and transitions, inconsistencies, etc.


Aye. Also, for solo lines now I cannot use any other library. The vibrato speed and depth cannot be baked in. I need that control for solo lines and even the best sounding libraries have vibrato done slightly differently to how I'd want it in that particular phrase. With IW, my terrible music can be terrible, but it is terrible MY way.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes, if tone is your main concern I would probably say you're better off with something else. I wouldn't say the tone in IW is bad, it's just different and not directly what you would associate with most sample libraries.
> 
> But, if you are more interested in composition, orchestration, flexibility, and writing I would say IW is the better option. Less fiddling with bugs, bad samples and transitions, inconsistencies, etc.


I don't think IW has any advantage in composition, orchestration, or writing  That's up to the composer not the tool. It does have superior playability...up to a point (not always I've found), but if the tone is not what you hear in your head, you don't save much production time vs. other libraries if you need to massage that anyway.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I don't think IW has any advantage in composition, orchestration, or writing  That's up to the composer not the tool. It does have superior playability...up to a point (not always I've found), but if the tone is not what you hear in your head, you don't save much production time vs. other libraries if you need to massage that anyway.



Sure... If you're writing for a real orchestra with pen and paper, I might agree, but if your writing for samples I have to disagree. I feel like you are very limited with most libraries and that takes away control from the composer.

How many libraries give you 6 individual horns (up to 30 with the inbuilt transpose trick) that you can combine in any way you want and do any type of divisi. Where you can play whatever clusters you want or do long glissandos. Or just something as simple as playing any length note at any dynamic and do crescendo/decresendo that sounds great without phasing. You can mould the vibrato to fit just perfectly to your phrase.

Which library gives you the incredibly extensive single instrument list that IW does and where you can create all sorts of different combinations of textures and sounds with any interval trill you can imagine at any dynamic.

The list is long.

I'm sorry, there's no competition for the Infinite series at the moment, it's playing in its own league when it comes to general flexibility and getting out of the way of the composer. As I said before, it might not have the tone that everyone is looking for, but it can't be beaten in most other regards.


----------



## Raab

To be honest: IB is just the thing I’ve been searching for. Sound-wise, it pretty much tops everything else I’ve been used too (VSL, EW, Project SAM).
Should be finished with an Williams-esque piece soon and will share it here. IB really shines for those quick snappy lines.

Now the programming/playing with separate tracks for each player in the ensemble takes a while getting used to but it takes realism up to a new level - IF not just copy/pasted but recorded live. That’s one of the most important points in my opinion. Pasting in MIDI won’t do the trick. After finding the right workflow, I’ve found this to be more musical and creative than programming endless keyswitches afterwards.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Jonathan Moray said:


> Sure... If you're writing for a real orchestra with pen and paper, I might agree, but if your writing for samples I have to disagree. I feel like you are very limited with most libraries and that takes away control from the composer.
> 
> How many libraries give you 6 individual horns (up to 30 with the inbuilt transpose trick) that you can combine in any way you want and do any type of divisi. Where you can play whatever clusters you want or do long glissandos. Or just something as simple as playing any length note at any dynamic and do crescendo/decresendo that sounds great without phasing. You can mould the vibrato to fit just perfectly to your phrase.
> 
> Which library gives you the incredibly extensive single instrument list that IW does and where you can create all sorts of different combinations of textures and sounds with any interval trill you can imagine at any dynamic.
> 
> The list is long.
> 
> I'm sorry, there's no competition for the Infinite series at the moment, it's playing in its own league when it comes to general flexibility and getting out of the way of the composer. As I said before, it might not have the tone that everyone is looking for, but it can't be beaten in most other regards.


How many times do you plan on writing individually for 6 horns? Or if the tone isn't there, what's the benefit to the end product vs. layering other libraries. Writing a lot of bass oboe parts these days?

I appreciate the positives on the Infinite series (I did buy both after all), but I am not blind / deaf to their flaws either. To ignore them means there is no room for improvement which of course there is - including when looking at the competition. Flexibility is not the be all end all for sample libraries.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How many times do you plan on writing individually for 6 horns? Or if the tone isn't there, what's the benefit to the end product vs. layering other libraries. Writing a lot of bass oboe parts these days?
> 
> I appreciate the positives on the Infinite series (I did buy both after all), but I am not blind / deaf to their flaws either. To ignore them means there is no room for improvement which of course there is - including when looking at the competition. Flexibility is not the be all end all for sample libraries.



Really depends. Usually, I like to write three-way divisi for horns (2 horns for each line), or if I want a bigger sound I write two-way divisi for horns (3 horns for each line) and have the trombones take the lowest part. At least now I have the option.

That's true, I rarely write for the extremely low instruments very often, since they are so rare in the sample world and that's usually where my projects start. My music will definitely see much more Contrabass Clarinet, Contrabassoon, and maybe even more Bass Oboe in the future. I will also try and work more saxes into my work.

I, still, agree. There is room for improvement regarding the tone of Infinite, never said anything else. What I'm getting at is that deciding between Infinite or a more traditional library should be rather easy because they meet very, very different criteria. Do you value tone or flexibility? Flexibility; there's really only one choice I reckon.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Does anyone have any custom settings to get the best out of Infinite Series with Seventh Heaven?


----------



## Raab

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Does anyone have any custom settings to get the best out of Infinite Series with Seventh Heaven?


I’ve initially used Seventh Heaven for placing IB in a place with VSL and EW, so more on the Early Reflection and short reverb side.
Try starting with the “Clear Ambience” preset in SH and turn the lower right knob towards the ER. Depth can be adjusted by using Pre-Delay and LF/HF damping.

This worked for me for a while and I’ve been using the build in Scoring Stage IRs for Infinite together with Seventh Heaven.
Recently, I’ve changed for the algorithmic Sonnix Reverb with just the ERs because I’ve got more control. 😉


----------



## elliebean

FireGS said:


> So here's a little demo I did with everything you hear in MIR's Sage hall. I contacted Aaron a few weeks back specifically asking how one could get nearly an "anechoic" sound out of IB/IW for use in MIR - and his solution was this:
> 
> You can disable the built-in IRs by going into the Edit Mode (wrench icon).
> 
> 1. Enable Mixed Mic (this disables the triple convolution system)
> 2. Click the wrench icon.
> 3. Bypass the convolution unit on the Insert Effects tab.
> 
> If you wish to revert to Infinite's convolution, simply disable Mixed Mic.
> 
> I've done the above with the track you hear, and all brass and winds are AV. Here's a look at MIR:



Wind Waker, hell yeah! Nice job on this one!


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> How many libraries give you 6 individual horns (up to 30 with the inbuilt transpose trick) that you can combine in any way you want and do any type of divisi. Where you can play whatever clusters you want or do long glissandos. Or just something as simple as playing any length note at any dynamic and do crescendo/decresendo that sounds great without phasing. You can mould the vibrato to fit just perfectly to your phrase.


Think to the strings where you will be able to control al the 60 individual instruments alone or as an ensemble with true autodivisi.

From the faq: 
_
Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. All 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch._

I'm reading it every day, cannot wait to play with it. I have just to remake two old tracks of mine with a lot of strings parts.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

DANIELE said:


> Think to the strings where you will be able to control al the 60 individual instruments alone or as an ensemble with true autodivisi.
> 
> From the faq:
> _
> Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. All 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch._
> 
> I'm reading it every day, cannot wait to play with it. I have just to remake two old tracks of mine with a lot of strings parts.



I know and I'm so fucking excited for the strings! I usually keep my excitement in check and try to be more rational about libraries, but this is going to be groundbreaking for me and I can't wait. The consistency paired with the ability to create my own sized sections in whatever sized room I want. Yeah, I think most people see why that's insanely good.


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure when


DANIELE said:


> Think to the strings where you will be able to control al the 60 individual instruments alone or as an ensemble with true autodivisi.
> 
> From the faq:
> _
> Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. All 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch._
> 
> I'm reading it every day, cannot wait to play with it. I have just to remake two old tracks of mine with a lot of strings parts.


@aaronventure I'm ready to hear DANIELE's strings piece! How about you? 😁


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> I know and I'm so fucking excited for the strings! I usually keep my excitement in check and try to be more rational about libraries, but this is going to be groundbreaking for me and I can't wait. The consistency paired with the ability to create my own sized sections in whatever sized room I want. Yeah, I think most people see why that's insanely good.


I usually do the same, I don't like to be hyped about something I don't know but here we are pretty sure of the results and the support.
We are already playing with Infinite instruments and we could already think of what we could expect from IS.

Plus, there are some other companies that are already working on similar products and they are pretty good so we know it is possible.

Everything is possible but I think we could be hyped this time, we know how much care Aaron takes in his work.


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> @aaronventure when
> @aaronventure I'm ready to hear DANIELE's strings piece! How about you? 😁


+1 month


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> +1 month


I knew it, *I like Music* you must stop summoning Aaron from his Infinite Kingdom.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Listen, listen. We don't know what the wizard actually means with his riddles and dark magic, let's not jump to any conclusions.

Although, I do think he means that it's +1 months in development time because of the summon. @I like music


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> +1 month


I've deleted my post! Feel free not to reply to this...


----------



## Nullhertz

Just pulled the trigger on IWW and so far I'm really impressed!
Getting used to the workflow and definitely need to learn how to properly program woodwinds, but so far I really like the overall flexibility and tone.

Started to rework some Zelda music with the new lib. :D

View attachment KokiriForest_02.mp3


----------



## Loïc D

Reasy said:


> Just pulled the trigger on IWW and so far I'm really impressed!
> Getting used to the workflow and definitely need to learn how to properly program woodwinds, but so far I really like the overall flexibility and tone.
> 
> Started to rework some Zelda music with the new lib. :D
> 
> View attachment KokiriForest_02.mp3


Beings immediate smile on my face.

I bought IW as well yesterday, in replacement of Spitfire Studio WW.
Keyboard in one hand, faderbox in the other, what a immense pleasure to be able to play anything. It’s really pushing the walls of my WW writing.
I feel like I just scratched the surface.

Congratulations to Aaron.


----------



## Trash Panda

In addition to Infinite Strings, I’m really looking forward to the updates to IB and IWW that bring the ensemble tool to those instruments.


----------



## porrasm

Here's my first real test with Infinite Brass (+ Spitfire Symphonic Strings & Woods). It's very much a work in progress but still wanted to share it. I've been avoiding writing anything brass heavy because my previous libraries have been pretty difficult to work with but Infinite Brass isn't. I'm really enjoying it.


----------



## FireGS

Trash Panda said:


> In addition to Infinite Strings, I’m really looking forward to the updates to IB and IWW that bring the ensemble tool to those instruments.


First I've heard that's happening. Source?


----------



## Trash Panda

FireGS said:


> First I've heard that's happening. Source?


I thought I saw Aaron mention it somewhere in this thread. Might be a quarantine mirage though.


----------



## DANIELE

FireGS said:


> First I've heard that's happening. Source?





Trash Panda said:


> I thought I saw Aaron mention it somewhere in this thread. Might be a quarantine mirage though.



I remember Aaron saying that for IB and IW there's not ensemble in the schedule at the moment. I think he will think about it but not in the near future and actually I think that the strings need ensemble patches while with IB and IW I feel pretty fine to write for solo instruments, even for 6 horns one at a time.

I don't know how the ensemble patches will work but I could change my mind when I'll see them.


----------



## dcgrp

Hi all, not sure if this is posted anywhere, but does anyone know if the IR files are available for use? I'm not super Kontakt skilled and so maybe they are just sitting in a folder somewhere on my computer.. I'm doing some wind ensemble stuff in Mozarteum, but I'm recording the trumpet parts myself since I'm a trumpet player and the IB trumpets seem challenging to dial in the sound compared to the rest of the library. I've found some IRs that get close, but it would be cool to get it perfect.

Or, is there a way to send audio into the Kontakt instance and have it run through the infinite series IRs directly?


----------



## FireGS

Let's continue the Zelda train!

IB, IW, Berlin Strings, Piano, Harp, and Perc.

I'd like to hear CSB and CSW do that end crescendo


----------



## I like music

FireGS said:


> Let's continue the Zelda train!
> 
> IB, IW, Berlin Strings, Piano, Harp, and Perc.
> 
> I'd like to hear CSB and CSW do that end crescendo



The end of that crescendo is loveeeeely


----------



## Jamus

FireGS said:


> Let's continue the Zelda train!
> 
> IB, IW, Berlin Strings, Piano, Harp, and Perc.
> 
> I'd like to hear CSB and CSW do that end crescendo



Yooooooo that was raddd


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Yes, let's continue the Zelda train. So much great music to choose from for those games.

Here's a quick-ish mock-up of a small section from the 25th Anniversary Medley. Both the mix and programing is all over the place. I would like to spend more time and make a better version at some point, but this is all the time I have at the moment. Wish I had Infinite Strings when I did this.

It gets pretty bright and loud at the end.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Wish I had Infinite Strings when I did this.


Awesome!!! Love the bite on those trumpets. Would love to see you work a bit more on it.

@aaronventure Not my words, but look at this, even more people wishing for the strings! Go on, "+1 month" me again. I don't care. This deserves IS.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Awesome!!! Love the bite on those trumpets. Would love to see you work a bit more on it.
> 
> @aaronventure Not my words, but look at this, even more people wishing for the strings! Go on, "+1 month" me again. I don't care. This deserves IS.


Please guys do some posts so Aaron doesn't read this!! Quick!!!


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes, let's continue the Zelda train. So much great music to choose from for those games.
> 
> Here's a quick-ish mock-up of a small section from the 25th Anniversary Medley. Both the mix and programing is all over the place. I would like to spend more time and make a better version at some point, but this is all the time I have at the moment. Wish I had Infinite Strings when I did this.
> 
> It gets pretty bright and loud at the end.


I'd watch out how much legato you're using on the solo winds. Legato is a demarcated notation in written scores, and unless it's specifically written, it shouldn't be used. I know the 25th Anniversary score quite well, and there's a few too many legato transitions in your mockup. Take close care to A/B the recording to your mockup, and listen carefully for when legato transitions _are_ used, but more importantly, when they're *not* used.

But please, do that, and let's hear version 2


----------



## servandus

Aaron's work with IW & IB has given me strength to ignore Vista, Nashville, Berlin...

So, let him read that we don't want him to read that *we're desperately craving for IS. *



DANIELE said:


> Please guys do some posts so Aaron doesn't read this!! Quick!!!


I guess this is not the kind of post you were asking for... but at least I tried to be quick


----------



## I like music

servandus said:


> Aaron's work with IW & IB has given me strength to ignore Vista, Nashville, Berlin...
> 
> So, let him read that we don't want him to read that *we're desperately craving for IS. *
> 
> 
> I guess this is not the kind of post you were asking for... but at least I tried to be quick


Exactly. We're not asking him about WHEN IS IS BEING RELEASED.


----------



## FireGS




----------



## servandus

I like music said:


> Exactly. We're not asking him about WHEN IS IS BEING RELEASED.


Not at all. Who's asking that? Nor is anyone asking for a teaser like the one he did with the trumpet (remember that M. Arnold fantasy?)

No. We know how to behave and be patient.


----------



## FireGS

Interesting. I just tried a slightly new mixing technique for IB - First chair uses mixed mic setting 1 (close mics prominent), and the rest of the chairs on mixed mic 2 - to simulate their distance from the trumpet spot mic. Did the same with Horns. Bones and Tuba I kept at the default mix to simulate being a bit further back, but I may do this trick with Woodwinds, too. Thoughts?

Compare Brass from my v28 with previous v26:


----------



## I like music

FireGS said:


> Interesting. I just tried a slightly new mixing technique for IB - First chair uses mixed mic setting 1 (close mics prominent), and the rest of the chairs on mixed mic 2 - to simulate their distance from the trumpet spot mic. Did the same with Horns. Bones and Tuba I kept at the default mix to simulate being a bit further back, but I may do this trick with Woodwinds, too. Thoughts?
> 
> Compare Brass from my v28 with previous v26:



To my amateur ear (and through terrible headphones) it sounds 5x better.

So that I understand:

Trumpet 1 = Mic Mix 1
Trumpets 2/3 = Mic Mix 2?


----------



## FireGS

I like music said:


> To my amateur ear (and through terrible headphones) it sounds 5x better.
> 
> So that I understand:
> 
> Trumpet 1 = Mic Mix 1
> Trumpets 2/3 = Mic Mix 2?


Exactly. That said, I did also improve some of the trumpet lines by fiddling with velocity. I'm still so used to having to ride velocity with other libs to sound convincing and it's just not needed with Infinite series..


----------



## I like music

FireGS said:


> Exactly. That said, I did also improve some of the trumpet lines by fiddling with velocity. I'm still so used to having to ride velocity with other libs to sound convincing and it's just not needed with Infinite series..


Right! I found that adding a bit of additional vibrato to 1st trumpet (even if other trumpets aren't playing vibrato) really helps.

Picked up that tip from the Cinesamples page where they described the lead trumpet having more discretion and ending phrases with an extra oomphy bit of vibrato (when they're playing unison)


----------



## FireGS

I like music said:


> Right! I found that adding a bit of additional vibrato to 1st trumpet (even if other trumpets aren't playing vibrato) really helps.
> 
> Picked up that tip from the Cinesamples page where they described the lead trumpet having more discretion and ending phrases with an extra oomphy bit of vibrato (when they're playing unison)


Yes, I tend to do that with all of my first chair players. They're all prima donnas!


----------



## I like music

FireGS said:


> Yes, I tend to do that with all of my first chair players. They're all prima donnas!


If you don't do that, your first chair will start to crash every time you open Kontakt.


----------



## DeCaffinated

I have a 3/4 finished mockup of Mercury sitting in my Scores folder just waaaaiting for IS to make it whole. The excitement is definitely palpable.


----------



## I like music

DeCaffinated said:


> I have a 3/4 finished mockup of Mercury sitting in my Scores folder just waaaaiting for IS to make it whole. The excitement is definitely palpable.


You have to tag @aaronventure if you want to complete Mercury!!! Them's the rules. Aaron sounds like the sort of guy that would enjoy Mercury. And being pestered on a forum.


----------



## Loïc D

DeCaffinated said:


> I have a 3/4 finished mockup of Mercury sitting in my Scores folder just waaaaiting for IS to make it whole. The excitement is definitely palpable.


@aaronventure : give this guy a beta please !


----------



## I like music

Loïc D said:


> @aaronventure : give this guy a beta please !


I'll take an alpha...


----------



## DANIELE

All this will cost + two months. Please Aaron be in a part of the world without internet, but with your workstation to work hard on IS.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> I'd watch out how much legato you're using on the solo winds. Legato is a demarcated notation in written scores, and unless it's specifically written, it shouldn't be used. I know the 25th Anniversary score quite well, and there's a few too many legato transitions in your mockup. Take close care to A/B the recording to your mockup, and listen carefully for when legato transitions _are_ used, but more importantly, when they're *not* used.
> 
> But please, do that, and let's hear version 2



Thanks for the feedback.

I agree. I listened back to my upload before I had to leave and the legatos, especially in the Bassoon, stood out to me. I can hear that I'm fading out one note and then I fade it back up right in a legato transition, it doesn't sound very good but I had no time to change it. I will AB it against my mock-up when I've got the time.

Would you happen to have the score at hand? I would very much like to have look at it.


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I agree. I listened back to my upload before I had to leave and the legatos, especially in the Bassoon, stood out to me. I can hear that I'm fading out one note and then I fade it back up right in a legato transition, it doesn't sound very good but I had no time to change it. I will AB it against my mock-up when I've got the time.
> 
> Would you happen to have the score at hand? I would very much like to have look at it.


I do. I'll send you a PM.

Take a look at the flute solo, for instance:





First three notes are not legato. The two 16th notes are legato, but the next note is not connected. The first two quarter notes of the second measure ARE legato, but is not connected to the triplet. This kind of thing is super crucial for creating realistic performances, and it's shocking how many people don't grasp the fact that not everything has to be legato to sound real - in fact, it's usually the opposite.

What I do with IB/IW is to actually disconnect the notes where there is not legato and I disconnect them by a fair bit (maybe a 16th or dotted 8th) to simulate a retonguing. The release sample and reverb take care of the gap and produce a fairly accurate retonguing.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> I do. I'll send you a PM.
> 
> Take a look at the flute solo, for instance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First three notes are not legato. The two 16th notes are legato, but the next note is not connected. The first two quarter notes of the second measure ARE legato, but is not connected to the triplet. This kind of thing is super crucial for creating realistic performances, and it's shocking how many people don't grasp the fact that not everything has to be legato to sound real - in fact, it's usually the opposite.
> 
> What I do with IB/IW is to actually disconnect the notes where there is not legato and I disconnect them by a fair bit (maybe a 16th or dotted 8th) to simulate a retonguing. The release sample and reverb take care of the gap and produce a fairly accurate retonguing.



Ah, yes! That's very clear.

My flute part:





I'm surprised that there's legato between the B and D in the second bar. Listening back to the recording it almost sounds like a retounging. I'm also surprised there's legato between the last B-A-B-D notes, I though the last D was a retounging. Could be because more of the arrangement comes in as the phrase ends and make it sound more like a retounging than it is.

I will try leaving a bigger gap for a more prominent retounging. The way I usualy do it is to give it the note preceding a small and quick dynamic fade before the retounging as if in anticipation of it. I think it give the same effect just less jarring. As most things: It depends on the context. I will try a bigger gap.

As most of you can probably also see, the mock-up is super simple. I've not done too much to the programming to try and make it sound human (velocity, length, timing, CC values, etc), at least not at moment, that's a whole separate process, and I don't want to have to deal with "Does velocity 56 or 60 sound better? Hmm..." when writing. Of course, I still need it to sound somewhat decent when writing so that I know if it will actually work in context, but I don't obsess over it.

I quickly glanced over the score and also noticed a few differences between the Bassoons as well.

Correct Bassoon part:





My Bassoon part:





Here I had zero space between the E-G going from the first bar to the second bar.

I will look through the score more thoroughly when I have more time. I need a clear mind and more patience than what I have at the moment... reading transposed scores does my head in.

Once again, thank you very much for the feedback.


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> Ah, yes! That's very clear.
> 
> My flute part:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised that there's legato between the B and D in the second bar. Listening back to the recording it almost sounds like a retounging. I'm also surprised there's legato between the last B-A-B-D notes, I though the last D was a retounging. Could be because more of the arrangement comes in as the phrase ends and make it sound more like a retounging than it is.
> 
> I will try leaving a bigger gap for a more prominent retounging. The way I usualy do it is to give it the note preceding a small and quick dynamic fade before the retounging as if in anticipation of it. I think it give the same effect just less jarring. As most things: It depends on the context. I will try a bigger gap.
> 
> As most of you can probably also see, the mock-up is super simple. I've not done too much to the programming to try and make it sound human (velocity, length, timing, CC values, etc), at least not at moment, that's a whole separate process, and I don't want to have to deal with "Does velocity 56 or 60 sound better? Hmm..." when writing. Of course, I still need it to sound somewhat decent when writing so that I know if it will actually work in context, but I don't obsess over it.
> 
> I quickly glanced over the score and also noticed a few differences between the Bassoons as well.
> 
> Correct Bassoon part:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Bassoon part:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here I had zero space between the E-G going from the first bar to the second bar.
> 
> I will look through the score more thoroughly when I have more time. I need a clear mind and more patience than what I have at the moment... reading transposed scores does my head in.
> 
> Once again, thank you very much for the feedback.


We're all here to learn! And I cannot recommend score study more. It's propelled a lot of the work I do in ways I never thought imagined. You're right, context matters, and we're all humans (i think), just as were the players on the recording. Humanization is crucial, but so is knowing the right dynamics, attacks, and articulations. Treat a score like a recipe, and be ready to alter it (slightly) if needed - but stick as close as you can to it, otherwise your bread falls flat.


----------



## Raab

I'm finally done with my little but very busy JW-style mock up, cunningly entitled "Fighter Attack" . Quite fan boy-ish but that title just stuck in my head. Tell you what you think. I've spend a lot of time on the right placement for getting a wide and spaced sound.
Even though I've been using the Mozarteum IRs for IB, a Sonnox Oxford Reverb instance was put on every instrument group (strings, brass etc.) with only ERs activated and carefully edited to create a sense of space and depthness. The final result has a slight hint of Seventh Heaven with just the tails mixed in very low to glue it all together.

Don't kill me but strings and woodwinds are basically VSL SE Vol. 1 (Plus), layered with EWQL SO so yeah, pretty old stuff but it works fine for me. Percussion is a mix of VSL, EWQL and Superior Drummer 3 Orchestral Percussion.

View attachment Fighter Attack.mp3


----------



## Loïc D

I’ve got plenty of stuck notes when I hit Stop on Logic. Anyone has a tip to get rid of it?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Loïc D said:


> I’ve got plenty of stuck notes when I hit Stop on Logic. Anyone has a tip to get rid of it?


Remove the humnazation or lower the value. The higher the value is the greater the chanse for stuck notes. At least that's what seems to be happening on my system.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Here's a very crude and uneducated explanation of what I think is happening.

The humanize function does a few things, randomize note on is one of them, but I don't think it does anything with note off. So if you have it activated it can delay the note on anywhere from zero to whatever value you've chosen (I think its in ms, but I'm not sure). Meaning if you have a larger value there's a greater chanse that the humanize function delays the note start until after you've already stopped playback and given the note off signal for all tracks. The note then starts playing when playback has stopped and then never gets the note off, making it play until it gets it.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> Remove the humnazation or lower the value. The higher the value is the greater the chanse for stuck notes. At least that's what seems to be happening on my system.


I disabled the humanization just because of this and I'm now using a combination of manual recording every instrument, midi note humanization in midi editor and track offset delay per track. Plus some little detuning and different space placement per instrument.


----------



## I like music

Got all my humanisations turned off. I usually fuck with MIDI data so much individually that I might as well not have humanisation on there.

Also, personal opinion, they sound good enough without.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Got all my humanisations turned off. I usually fuck with MIDI data so much individually that I might as well not have humanisation on there.
> 
> Also, personal opinion, they sound good enough without.


Yes indeed, they already sound good even if you copy/paste midi, obviously you have to do some post processing if you want to get the best result.
I remember humanization was more useful with older versions of IB.

Anyway, for me, options are always the best answer to user needs.


----------



## Loïc D

Jonathan Moray said:


> Remove the humnazation or lower the value. The higher the value is the greater the chanse for stuck notes. At least that's what seems to be happening on my system.


I don’t have humanization on.
Funny enough, I can also have triggered notes / stuck notes on-off when I edit the midi data... of other tracks.
So maybe a broader Logic issue, whi knows?...


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Loïc D said:


> I don’t have humanization on.
> Funny enough, I can also have triggered notes / stuck notes on-off when I edit the midi data... of other tracks.
> So maybe a broader Logic issue, whi knows?...


Could very well be. The Cinematic Studios series also seems to get more stuck notes in Logic than in other daws.

Do you have the latest version of KONTAKT 6? They fixed something regarding stuck notes for Cinematic Studio a few months ago. That might also spill over into other libraries with the same type of problem?


----------



## Loïc D

Jonathan Moray said:


> Could very well be. The Cinematic Studios series also seems to get more stuck notes in Logic than in other daws.
> 
> Do you have the latest version of KONTAKT 6? They fixed something regarding stuck notes for Cinematic Studio a few months ago. That might also spill over into other libraries with the same type of problem?


Yes, I keep Kontakt up to date. I’ll fiddle around with Midi settings in Logic. And Kontakt Aaron if I’m still stuck. Sorry guys, one more month delay...


----------



## I like music

Aaron's "I'm keeping my mouth shut about how the library is coming along" game is as good as Alex Wallbank's.


----------



## Jamus

I like music said:


> Aaron's "I'm keeping my mouth shut about how the library is coming along" game is as good as Alex Wallbank's.


The library is actually done and Aaron is sitting at his desk with his feet up just having a laugh at us 😂

Dance puppets, dance!


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> The library is actually done and Aaron is sitting at his desk with his feet up just having a laugh at us 😂
> 
> Dance puppets, dance!


Doesn't he know that most waltzes need some nice strings?


----------



## DANIELE

Loïc D said:


> Yes, I keep Kontakt up to date. I’ll fiddle around with Midi settings in Logic. And Kontakt Aaron if I’m still stuck. Sorry guys, one more month delay...


Well, I think you could survive to some hanging notes, maybe they are even fun if you change your point of view, no need to call Aaron for help.


----------



## gedlig

I like music said:


> Doesn't he know that most waltzes need some nice strings?


Maybe he prefers waltzes on accordion


----------



## I like music

gedlig said:


> Maybe he prefers waltzes on accordion


Touche


----------



## Loïc D

DANIELE said:


> Well, I think you could survive to some hanging notes, maybe they are even fun if you change your point of view, no need to call Aaron for help.



I only write tutti with vibrato, flutter and growl to the max. Gotta call Aaron now, I think he’s ok with this.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

With the guidance from the score thanks to @FireGS I made a few changes all over the mock-up because, well, my first version didn't get everything right. Although, I didn't follow the score to a T and took a few liberties with my version.

I'm somewhat happy with the first climax/crescendo but I can't get the second one to sound decent without resorting to a few tricks that I want to avoid.

Since this was more of an exercise for working with Infinite, I didn't want to resort to any other libraries or layer Infinite with anything -- if the instrument existed in the Infinite series that's what I used. I also wanted to keep the ensemble size realistic so there are no extra players for the louder parts just to get a wider and thicker sound. It's a small ensemble and it stays the same size all the way through. The mock-up even uses fewer players than the score, this is something I might change later.

The instruments outside of IB and IW are just filler and I didn't spend much time on those.


----------



## FireGS

See how those solos sound immediately better and more real when thinking about when not to use legatos? Bravo. Keep going, I wanna hear the rest. ♥️


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> See how those solos sound immediately better and more real when thinking about when not to use legatos? Bravo. Keep going, I wanna hear the rest. ♥️


Thanks!

Yeah, it sounds better. Although I still struggle with getting a good flow for the Bassoons in the beginning and listening back to the track I actually deviated from the score a bit and didn't follow the slur markings exactly because I just simply believed it sounded better and closer to the recording. Still, the score makes it a ton easier.

I might continue and do the more brass-heavy parts but it's not as fun to do the parts with string and percussion _hint, hint_


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> I might continue and do the more brass-heavy parts but it's not as fun to do the parts with string and percussion _hint, hint_


Needs increasing!!


----------



## Supremo

Loïc D said:


> I don’t have humanization on.
> Funny enough, I can also have triggered notes / stuck notes on-off when I edit the midi data... of other tracks.
> So maybe a broader Logic issue, whi knows?...


I have the same issue with Infinite libraries (I own both IB and IW) on Reaper. And no, disabling humanization feature doesn't help either.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Supremo said:


> I have the same issue with Infinite libraries (I own both IB and IW) on Reaper. And no, disabling humanization feature doesn't help either.


In Reaper? Can you replicate this somehow? I use Reaper and have minimal hanging notes so would be interesting to test.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Serious question, what specifically do you guys find wrong with the timber of the Infinite Series? I'm just wondering. People keep saying it's subpar in the sound department but can you pinpoint what is missing exactly?

For me, I believe the woodwinds lack a sort of hollow and "woody" character that most woodwinds have. Not sure and I can't explain it any better. I've yet to find a way to fake this.

I'm a big fan of the Bassoons and Clarinets, but the Flutes and Oboes lack a certain something and I can't explain what exactly.


----------



## Jamus

Supremo said:


> I have the same issue with Infinite libraries (I own both IB and IW) on Reaper. And no, disabling humanization feature doesn't help either.


Strange. I also use Reaper but rarely ever get stuck notes with the humanization disabled 🤔


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> Serious question, what specifically do you guys find wrong with the timber of the Infinite Series? I'm just wondering. People keep saying it's subpar in the sound department but can you pinpoint what is missing exactly?
> 
> For me, I believe the woodwinds lack a sort of hollow and "woody" character that most woodwinds have. Not sure and I can't explain it any better. I've yet to find a way to fake this.
> 
> I'm a big fan of the Bassoons and Clarinets, but the Flutes and Oboes lack a certain something and I can't explain what exactly.


Only thing I actually dislike, so far, is the sound of the Contrabassoon. Sounds too much like a Saxophone. And I haven't used the Saxes at all, so I can't really comment on those. I think a LOT of it has to do with how people use/play woods and write for them. There's a great comparison someone did on the CSW thread comparing CSW, Berlin, and AV's woods, and for the life of me, I think the AV winds sound as good, if not more musical than CSW. I'll post them here:

#1 is CSW, #2 is Berlin, #3 is AV's IW. 

I think #3 could have used better velocity programming, but barring that - it sounds so similar to CSW to me, that all of the additional flexibility of IW made the choice a no brainer for me. NV-V with no phasing. pp-ff no phasing. Flutter and growl on everything. Glides in Clarinets. ACTUAL SOLOISTS (so Divisi is a real thing). Oddball instruments (I didn't even know there was a Bass Oboe, but a'iight.). How anyone could pick CSW _OVER_ IW is beyond me.


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> I'm a big fan of the Bassoons and Clarinets, but the Flutes and Oboes lack a certain something and I can't explain what exactly.


I understand and agree on the 'hollow' quality. The flutes improved a heck of a lot in 2.0, to my ears however in the lower register can sometimes sound like more of a Reed punch than a tubular wind tunnel ??!🤔🤓😵🥴


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> Only thing I actually dislike, so far, is the sound of the Contrabassoon. Sounds too much like a Saxophone. And I haven't used the Saxes at all, so I can't really comment on those. I think a LOT of it has to do with how people use/play woods and write for them. There's a great comparison someone did on the CSW thread comparing CSW, Berlin, and AV's woods, and for the life of me, I think the AV winds sound as good, if not more musical than CSW. I'll post them here:
> 
> #1 is CSW, #2 is Berlin, #3 is AV's IW.
> 
> I think #3 could have used better velocity programming, but barring that - it sounds so similar to CSW to me, that all of the additional flexibility of IW made the choice a no brainer for me. NV-V with no phasing. pp-ff no phasing. Flutter and growl on everything. Glides in Clarinets. ACTUAL SOLOISTS (so Divisi is a real thing). Oddball instruments (I didn't even know there was a Bass Oboe, but a'iight.). How anyone could pick CSW _OVER_ IW is beyond me.


Right. I saw those and I agree that IW is not far behind, and in many aspects better. When it comes to musicality there's not much competition since you can't really make a performance with any of the other libraries and is left stitching pieces of smaller performances together missing the whole chorency of a singular performance.

The fact that you also get different rooms or can even apply your own reverb also adds a whole other level of flexibility.

Tone-wise, I think IW is really good and I have very little to complain about. As I said before, maybe the three flutes are a bit to close in tone and I would like something a bit more "hollow" and the attacks on some of the instruments (flutes especially) are a bit odd at times. The Oboe also lacks a certain hollow-ness and that duck-like squeaking quality in the transitions... Is it unusable? Absolutely not!

I will post an example of what I like some of my Oboes to sound like for exposed lines.

Heres also a post I did a few months ago where I and a few others compared IW to a plethora of other flutes, might be somewhat interesting for those wondering about the tone.





__





Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


S&ES :) Thanks! Nice! Do you mind giving a very quick idea of how you spacialised them? In particular, do you use the Dry strings, and if so, do you add any ER within SM's own engine? Assuming that for IW you had Bersa there? Sounds very good!




vi-control.net


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> Right. I saw those and I agree that IW is not far behind, and in many aspects better. When it comes to musicality there's not much competition since you can't really make a performance with any of the other libraries and is left stitching pieces of smaller performances together missing the whole chorency of a singular performance.
> 
> The fact that you also get different rooms or can even apply your own reverb also adds a whole other level of flexibility.
> 
> Tone-wise, I think IW is really good and I have very little to complain about. As I said before, maybe the three flutes are a bit to close in tone and I would like something a bit more "hollow" and the attacks on some of the instruments (flutes especially) are a bit odd at times. The Oboe also lacks a certain hollow-ness and that duck-like squeaking quality in the transitions... Is it unusable? Absolutely not!
> 
> I will post an example of what I like some of my Oboes to sound like for exposed lines.
> 
> Heres also a post I did a few months ago where I and a few others compared IW to a plethora of other flutes, might be somewhat interesting for those wondering about the tone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread
> 
> 
> S&ES :) Thanks! Nice! Do you mind giving a very quick idea of how you spacialised them? In particular, do you use the Dry strings, and if so, do you add any ER within SM's own engine? Assuming that for IW you had Bersa there? Sounds very good!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Yo, I totally forgot about the Oboe issue. Yes, I think for completely exposed lines, the Oboe is exactly as you said - not hollow or ducklike. But if you're using them a2 in unison or divisi, and playing tutti with winds or with other players, they sound perfectly fine. I'm actually pretty impressed with how piercing they are at higher registers - which they really are.


----------



## FireGS

FireGS said:


> Yo, I totally forgot about the Oboe issue. Yes, I think for completely exposed lines, the Oboe is exactly as you said - not hollow or ducklike. But if you're using them a2 in unison or divisi, and playing tutti with winds or with other players, they sound perfectly fine. I'm actually pretty impressed with how piercing they are at higher registers - which they really are.


Here's a really good example of ducky-like transitions. I found this old demo of the VSL French Oboe by Thomas J. Bergerson (!?). Just take a listen to those opening notes and the transitions at 0:43. Gimme that transition on IW and I'll cream myself. Oh, and check out 2:43.


----------



## Evans

FireGS said:


> Here's a really good example of ducky-like transitions. I found this old demo of the VSL French Oboe by Thomas J. Bergerson (!?). Just take a listen to those opening notes and the transition. Gimme that transition on IW and I'll cream myself. Oh, and check out 2:43.


That's an old favorite of mine. Love that part at 1:23; it's so soothing.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

FireGS said:


> Only thing I actually dislike, so far, is the sound of the Contrabassoon. Sounds too much like a Saxophone. And I haven't used the Saxes at all, so I can't really comment on those. I think a LOT of it has to do with how people use/play woods and write for them. There's a great comparison someone did on the CSW thread comparing CSW, Berlin, and AV's woods, and for the life of me, I think the AV winds sound as good, if not more musical than CSW. I'll post them here:
> 
> #1 is CSW, #2 is Berlin, #3 is AV's IW.
> 
> I think #3 could have used better velocity programming, but barring that - it sounds so similar to CSW to me, that all of the additional flexibility of IW made the choice a no brainer for me. NV-V with no phasing. pp-ff no phasing. Flutter and growl on everything. Glides in Clarinets. ACTUAL SOLOISTS (so Divisi is a real thing). Oddball instruments (I didn't even know there was a Bass Oboe, but a'iight.). How anyone could pick CSW _OVER_ IW is beyond me.


Tonally, IW is last of the three IMO. Synthy quality to it, like a square / pulse wave. Does not sound the same as CSW. Lot of benefits with IW though as you stated, but tone is not one of them.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Tonally, IW is last of the three IMO. Synthy quality to it, like a square / pulse wave. Does not sound the same as CSW. Lot of benefits with IW though as you stated, but tone is not one of them.


You are more than welcome to tell us which is IW and guess what the other libraries are in my comparisons. It should be easy. Or at least which is IW and what version you like the best.





__





Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


S&ES :) Thanks! Nice! Do you mind giving a very quick idea of how you spacialised them? In particular, do you use the Dry strings, and if so, do you add any ER within SM's own engine? Assuming that for IW you had Bersa there? Sounds very good!




vi-control.net


----------



## Jamus

To me IW Flutes sometimes sound like A, but they should sound like B 😑


----------



## FireGS

Jamus said:


> To me IW Flutes sometimes sound like A, but they should sound like B 😑


I... don't really know what that means, but hey


----------



## FireGS

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Tonally, IW is last of the three IMO. Synthy quality to it, like a square / pulse wave. Does not sound the same as CSW. Lot of benefits with IW though as you stated, but tone is not one of them.


Im pretty sure I said the tone is good, but not better. When you wrap all of the benefits together, it outweighs (heavily) the drawbacks in CSW.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> Here's a really good example of ducky-like transitions. I found this old demo of the VSL French Oboe by Thomas J. Bergerson (!?). Just take a listen to those opening notes and the transitions at 0:43. Gimme that transition on IW and I'll cream myself. Oh, and check out 2:43.


For me, it's mostly the tone. I can somewhat get those duck-like transitions with IW. It's not as nuanced as the real thing.

Here's a very quick example I had lying around that shows a quacky-like transition. I also added a quick version of the TJB Oboe to show the vast difference in tone. I also couldn't get it to sound especially good.


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> For me, it's mostly the tone. I can somewhat get those duck-like transitions with IW. It's not as nuanced as the real thing.
> 
> Here's a very quick example I had lying around that shows a quacky-like transition. I also added a quick version of the TJB Oboe to show the vast difference in tone. I also couldn't get it to sound especially good.


Yep, I like what you did there with IW Oboe 1 Track7 Snippet. I see whatcha did, and that seems like you're trying too hard to get that sound (NOT your fault, its clearly a limitation of the library). BWW certainly has the transition and tone, but not the benefits of IW.


----------



## RogiervG

Jonathan Moray said:


> For me, it's mostly the tone. I can somewhat get those duck-like transitions with IW. It's not as nuanced as the real thing.
> 
> Here's a very quick example I had lying around that shows a quacky-like transition. I also added a quick version of the TJB Oboe to show the vast difference in tone. I also couldn't get it to sound especially good.


BWW beats them both, sonically.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

RogiervG said:


> BWW beats them both, sonically.


Yeah, obviously there's a big difference. The Oboes in IW are the weakest part at the moment I would say.


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> For me, it's mostly the tone. I can somewhat get those duck-like transitions with IW. It's not as nuanced as the real thing.
> 
> Here's a very quick example I had lying around that shows a quacky-like transition. I also added a quick version of the TJB Oboe to show the vast difference in tone. I also couldn't get it to sound especially good.


I believe I've talked about this a little earlier in the thread. The Oboe legato is more of a synth portamento (like you'd hear in FM8 or Serum) than a key changing clunk on the instrument. It glides more than it smacks I guess? Most noticeable with soft velocity legato in high register with Oboe.

This reminds me that I actually have a request for IW: It would be rad if the key noise was not affected by the dynamic transitions of the instrument. So quiet trills can be drenched in key clickage 😁


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> I believe I've talked about this a little earlier in the thread. The Oboe legato is more of a synth portamento (like you'd hear in FM8 or Serum) than a key changing clunk on the instrument. It glides more than it smacks I guess? Most noticeable with soft velocity legato in high register with Oboe.


Interesting way to explain it, but I think I get the picture and I agree.



Jamus said:


> This reminds me that I actually have a request for IW: It would be rad if the key noise was not affected by the dynamic transitions of the instrument. So quiet trills can be drenched in key clickage 😁


Isn't IW unlocked? If you click the wrench you get access to a whole lot of under-the-hood controls (turning off the convolution and also crossfades) you should be able to change it there and get all the clickage you want.

Disclaimer: If you're going to be messing under-the-hood like that it's always a good idea to back up your instruments and not save the changes you do as the default in case you break something.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Jonathan Moray said:


> You are more than welcome to tell us which is IW and guess what the other libraries are in my comparisons. It should be easy. Or at least which is IW and what version you like the best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread
> 
> 
> S&ES :) Thanks! Nice! Do you mind giving a very quick idea of how you spacialised them? In particular, do you use the Dry strings, and if so, do you add any ER within SM's own engine? Assuming that for IW you had Bersa there? Sounds very good!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Why do I need to validate my preference? Or pick out IW from a selection? Blind tests are the defense mechanism of zealots and fan boys. I own IW (and BWW and CineWinds and HOW). I do comparisons daily when I am working. Tonal preference is subjective. I almost never choose IW in the end due to tone. Even programming-wise, it is easier in many scenarios to use key switches to get the library to do exactly what you want, quickly. IW is not the be all and end all as some on this thread would claim. It's good, but not without its flaws. I will provide my opinion here as an owner of it for other potential buyers.


----------



## shawnsingh

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Why do I need to validate my preference? Or pick out IW from a selection? Blind tests are the defense mechanism of zealots and fan boys. I own IW (and BWW and CineWinds and HOW). I do comparisons daily when I am working. Tonal preference is subjective. I almost never choose IW in the end due to tone. Even programming-wise, it is easier in many scenarios to use key switches to get the library to do exactly what you want, quickly. IW is not the be all and end all as some on this thread would claim. It's good, but not without its flaws. I will provide my opinion here as an owner of it for other potential buyers.


Ah, please forgive any of us fanboys if we push too hard to sell our own opinion. We're just excited. But we can still have fun drilling into details about why we disagree and see what comes up. And that'd be useful for people considering to buy it. So I give more rationale about my opinion below

But first - I really don't want us to dismiss "blind testing" as a defense mechanism, just because of a minor flare-up of emotions on a discussion thread. For their purpose, blind testing is a very sound (pun intended?) tool that can bring more objectivity to an issue like this that is extremely prone to bias and placebo. To be clear, I'm not saying that you or anyone has such bias or placebo. Just want to defend the very real value of blind testing. If someone wants to test whether IW can be just as realistic/expressive/preferred tone as other well-regarded libraries, a blind test is a very reasonable thing to propose. This can happily coexist with anyone's preferences.

About the programming - I'm sure you'd agree this aspect is also extremely subjective. I personally feel the opposite of you - With Infinite series workflow, I find it way easier to get to an equivalent level of quality compared to the tweaking and fidgeting with an articulation-switching workflow. It's not about playability for me actually, it's about the way of thinking that Infinite's control scheme has for me. The "note velocity/duration + 2 CCs" control scheme in IW is more direct to the way I think about how to get an expressive performance, while articulation choices require more cognitive overhead for me, constantly having to "translate" the choices of articulations into the expressive arc I want to get out of it.

As for tone, I agree there are some tone issues and legato transitions (and short note releases) don't have all the right details - but for my way of doing things, these problems don't break my immersion as badly as the opposite set of problems with other libraries - the phasiness that happens all-too-often with crossfading dynamics/vibrato, or the limitations of sculpting attacks and durations with one-shot articulations. So for me, the tradeoff favors IW significantly.


----------



## FireGS

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Blind tests are the defense mechanism of zealots and fan boys.


Silliest thing I've read on VI-Control.

I guess the entire scientific community is a bunch of zealots for doing blind and double blind testing, right?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Why do I need to validate my preference? Or pick out IW from a selection? Blind tests are the defense mechanism of zealots and fan boys. I own IW (and BWW and CineWinds and HOW). I do comparisons daily when I am working. Tonal preference is subjective. I almost never choose IW in the end due to tone. Even programming-wise, it is easier in many scenarios to use key switches to get the library to do exactly what you want, quickly. IW is not the be all and end all as some on this thread would claim. It's good, but not without its flaws. I will provide my opinion here as an owner of it for other potential buyers.



You couldn't pick out IW from the list then?

Blind tests are a great way to remove the bias and prejudice that a lot of people have. Why do you think blind tests are commonly used in the real world to remove as much of the superfluous fluff and leave the important parts? Even in the music industry.

You don't. This is the internet and you are free to do and say whatever you want without backing anything up or validating it. If you have a preference then that's great. You've made it sound as if the tone of IW is so obviously worse than the others, so it would be interesting to see what you would choose and what your preference in those winds would be.

Saying it's bad doesn't really help anyone: not the developer, not those with the libraries, not those planning to buy the library, so it's a pretty pointless statement -- but pointless statements and unwarranted/unfounded claims are something the internet excels at. Saying why it's bad helps a lot more. Giving specific and constructive criticism. I could very well have missed where you gave your constructive criticism, but I've not seen it.


----------



## shawnsingh

Oy hold on ...

I was sincerely trying to make someone who disagreed with Infinite-lovers feel like their opinion is valued and respected. @ALittleNightMusic and @FireGS and @Jonathan Moray I'm sorry if my post had the opposite effect to polarize us more.

I'll come back later, sincerely no hard feelings on my part. Cheers!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

shawnsingh said:


> Oy hold on ...
> 
> I was sincerely trying to make someone who disagreed with Infinite-lovers feel like their opinion is valued and respected. @ALittleNightMusic and @FireGS and @Jonathan Moray I'm sorry if my post had the opposite effect to polarize us more.
> 
> I'll come back later, sincerely no hard feelings on my part. Cheers!


Your response was wonderfully respectful. Others here are the ones that are trying to convince folks that tone is somehow objective and if you can’t pick from a random blind sampling, your opinion of tone is invalidated. Which is actually the stupidest thing I’ve read on Vi-C. Blind tests are great when you are making the right comparison, unlike in this scenario.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

shawnsingh said:


> Oy hold on ...
> 
> I was sincerely trying to make someone who disagreed with Infinite-lovers feel like their opinion is valued and respected. @ALittleNightMusic and @FireGS and @Jonathan Moray I'm sorry if my post had the opposite effect to polarize us more.
> 
> I'll come back later, sincerely no hard feelings on my part. Cheers!


Of course.

I totally understand why someone would value other libraries higher than Infinite and that's up to each and everyone to decide what fits them the best. Now this being a thread about Infinite you are bound to get a few questions asked if you keep saying something negative about the libraries without validating or backing it up.

Having a discussion and learning new things is great, that's one of the many reasons I like the internet. One of the reasons I don't like the internet is that good discussions are hard to come by and people just state and say things without any substance and that just doesn't do for a good discussion.

Having an opinion is fine, having an opinion without any ground for that opinion is less fine, having an opinion without any ground for that opinion and going around unprompted telling people about it and then getting defensive when you challenge that opinion is not fine. It's not going to help anyone.

It's not as if ALittleNightMusic said that he hated the libraries or anything, it's just not his cup of tea and he rather use other libraries and that's fine. I just wanted to know what specifically he found to be wrong with the tone.


----------



## FireGS

shawnsingh said:


> Oy hold on ...
> 
> I was sincerely trying to make someone who disagreed with Infinite-lovers feel like their opinion is valued and respected. @ALittleNightMusic and @FireGS and @Jonathan Moray I'm sorry if my post had the opposite effect to polarize us more.
> 
> I'll come back later, sincerely no hard feelings on my part. Cheers!


No man, you're spot on. @ALittleNightMusic is the one in here calling people names. Not sure why people are reading more into what I say than exactly what's written, but you do you.


FireGS said:


> Only thing I actually dislike, so far, is the sound of the Contrabassoon. Sounds too much like a Saxophone.





FireGS said:


> Yes, I think for completely exposed lines, the Oboe is exactly as you said - not hollow or ducklike.





FireGS said:


> I think #3 could have used better velocity programming





FireGS said:


> I see whatcha did, and that seems like you're trying too hard to get that sound (NOT your fault, its clearly a limitation of the library).



Whoa there, nelly. Look at me being critical of IW. I guess that's not enough criticism for the praise I gave it:



FireGS said:


> for the life of me, I think the AV winds sound as good, if not more musical than CSW.
> 
> it sounds so similar to CSW to me, that all of the additional flexibility of IW made the choice a no brainer for me. NV-V with no phasing. pp-ff no phasing. Flutter and growl on everything. Glides in Clarinets. ACTUAL SOLOISTS (so Divisi is a real thing). Oddball instruments (I didn't even know there was a Bass Oboe, but a'iight.). How anyone could pick CSW _OVER_ IW is beyond me.





FireGS said:


> BWW certainly has the transition and tone, but not the benefits of IW.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We all make either informed or ill-informed decisions. I made the decision to wait on CSW (while being an existing CS customer) until I heard demos and reviews. The cons of CSW outweighed any perceived extra value it's tone had over IW -- _to me._

Guess we're not allowed to have opinions that differ from @ALittleNightMusic. And if @ALittleNightMusic is offended by being called silly, I'm not sure what to tell you besides get off the internet. Not apologizing for standing up to being called a fanboy or a zealot.


----------



## I like music

I like the tone of IW just fine. The transitions are where I sometimes lose a bit of immersion with regards to the tone. That I expect will always be Aaron's biggest challenge. Same with the brass. That said, the net benefit of the libraries for me is way above what else is available (CSB, HWB, BWW etc)


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> I like the tone of IW just fine. The transitions are where I sometimes lose a bit of immersion with regards to the tone. That I expect will always be Aaron's biggest challenge. Same with the brass. That said, the net benefit of the libraries for me is way above what else is available (CSB, HWB, BWW etc)



Agreed.

Aaron's approach is more simplistic than something like Sample Modeling and I think a lot of what we hear (or don't hear in this case) is how the overtones and harmonics change and shift as the keys are pressed and the valves redirect the air flow in the instruments. I think a lot of it is in that small time-frame where the key is being pressed but not fully down. It's not a totally smooth glide from A to B.

Needless to say, there's a lot of nuance in playing an instrument and getting it right this way must be extremely hard... Even some of those sampling traditionally don't always get the overall sound right and they are just stitching recordings togather. It very subjective but there seems to be at least a range that most can agree upon is the desired sound for a certain instrument.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Aaron's approach is more simplistic than something like Sample Modeling and I think a lot of what we hear (or don't hear in this case) is how the overtones and harmonics change and shift as the keys are pressed and the valves redirect the air flow in the instruments. I think a lot of it is in that small time-frame where the key is being pressed but not fully down. It's not a totally smooth glide from A to B.
> 
> Needless to say, there's a lot of nuance in playing an instrument and getting it right this way must be extremely hard... Even some of those sampling traditionally don't always get the overall sound right and they are just stitching recordings togather. It very subjective but there seems to be at least a range that most can agree upon is the desired sound for a certain instrument.


Aye. I've had a chance to do some side-by-side tests with Sample Modeling. While I prefer the overall offering of IB compared to SM, the one area where I can notice a difference in SM's favour is in the transitions. This must be because they aren't limited by Kontakt? And the way their engine deals with overtones etc is presumably hard to do in Kontakt. Again, I know very little of these things but this is an area where I think Aaron has the chops, but maybe Kontakt is somewhat limited.

Strings will be super interesting, and probably the ones that divide opinion the most!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

FireGS said:


> Guess we're not allowed to have opinions that differ from @ALittleNightMusic. And if @ALittleNightMusic is offended by being called silly, I'm not sure what to tell you besides get off the internet. Not apologizing for standing up to being called a fanboy or a zealot.


Actually it’s the opposite. I contributed by saying I don’t prefer the tone of IW compared to other libraries (which is entirely subjective). And then because you said you had no idea how somebody could choose CSW over IW, I mentioned that there were reasons such as tone and programming. What was the response to that? “Prove it by taking this blind study!” So I guess I’m not allowed to have an opinion outside of AV’s libraries are amazing before the usual fan boys jump on me in this thread. But that’s ok - I don’t need to defend my subjective opinions. I’m not trying to convince you of them either. If you think IW is great, good for you. For others that might be reading this thread, they can make their own decisions on tone based on examples and I’ll say that no key switch programming isn’t all that it is cracked up to be - can be much slower in fact.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Aye. I've had a chance to do some side-by-side tests with Sample Modeling. While I prefer the overall offering of IB compared to SM, the one area where I can notice a difference in SM's favour is in the transitions. This must be because they aren't limited by Kontakt? And the way their engine deals with overtones etc is presumably hard to do in Kontakt. Again, I know very little of these things but this is an area where I think Aaron has the chops, but maybe Kontakt is somewhat limited.
> 
> Strings will be super interesting, and probably the ones that divide opinion the most!


I wasn't talking about Audio Modeling, I was talking about Sample Modeling. I still can't believe they named their company something so similar to Sample Modeling, especially when they do pretty much the same thing and cater to the same group of people. There's always confusion when someone brings either of the companies up. SM uses Kontakt as their engine. You're probably right that AM, who uses their own proprietary engine specially made for this, has an even more advanced system in place.

Once again I agree. AV certainly has the bigger collection of instruments to choose from and that's a big reason it will be my workhorse library. SM on the other hand has the better and more developed technology and what I will reach for on exposed lines or as a lead to layer with the others. It has something a little extra, but it's also much more taxing on the CPU and I wouldn't be able to run a full template with SM even if it existed.

Aaron has shown to be very prone to improving and wants to have the best possible product he can make, so I don't doubt we will see more improvements. My guess is that he's at a place with IW and IB that he think's they are fine for now and instead he wants to focus on finished and strings and maybe the percussion before he tackles the next set of updates. As stated before, I believe what he will learn from doing strings will be huge and much of it might carry over to IW and IB.


----------



## FireGS

ALittleNightMusic said:


> And then because you said you had no idea how somebody could choose CSW over IW, I mentioned that there were reasons such as tone and programming. What was the response to that? “Prove it by taking this blind study!”





FireGS said:


> There's a great comparison someone did on the CSW thread comparing CSW, Berlin, and AV's woods, and for the life of me, I think the AV winds sound as good, if not more musical than CSW. I'll post them here:
> 
> #1 is CSW, #2 is Berlin, #3 is AV's IW.



"blind"


----------



## FireGS

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So I guess I’m not allowed to have an opinion outside of AV’s libraries are amazing before the usual fan boys jump on me in this thread. But that’s ok - I don’t need to defend my subjective opinions. I’m not trying to convince you of them either.


Orly? So here we were, expressing our opinions, showing examples, then you come in name calling - but we're the ones persecuting you? oook.


----------



## Jamus

For the record SWAM strings are insanely good for having no samples. Just wish I could make a good section out of them 🙁 I kind of wish I had gone with SM strings instead.

But looking forward, like super forward to IS 🎻🎻


----------



## FireGS

@aaronventure or anyone else know if the IS section sizes will be CC editable? Like, if I want to start a melodic line with a solo violin, and then ride CC whatever to dynamically add additional players one by one? How freakin' sweet would that be?


----------



## Jamus

FireGS said:


> @aaronventure or anyone else know if the IS section sizes will be CC editable? Like, if I want to start a melodic line with a solo violin, and then ride CC whatever to dynamically add additional players one by one? How freakin' sweet would that be?


That would be cool. My plan is to do a sort of LASS thing with first chair and a few desks for divisi. Obviously this setup will help to further enhance immersion into my imaginary world of being an actual composer lmao 🤫


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I wasn't talking about Audio Modeling, I was talking about Sample Modeling. I still can't believe they named their company something so similar to Sample Modeling, especially when they do pretty much the same thing and cater to the same group of people. There's always confusion when someone brings either of the companies up. SM uses Kontakt as their engine. You're probably right that AM, who uses their own proprietary engine specially made for this, has an even more advanced system in place.
> 
> Once again I agree. AV certainly has the bigger collection of instruments to choose from and that's a big reason it will be my workhorse library. SM on the other hand has the better and more developed technology and what I will reach for on exposed lines or as a lead to layer with the others. It has something a little extra, but it's also much more taxing on the CPU and I wouldn't be able to run a full template with SM even if it existed.
> 
> Aaron has shown to be very prone to improving and wants to have the best possible product he can make, so I don't doubt we will see more improvements. My guess is that he's at a place with IW and IB that he think's they are fine for now and instead he wants to focus on finished and strings and maybe the percussion before he tackles the next set of updates. As stated before, I believe what he will learn from doing strings will be huge and much of it might carry over to IW and IB.


I did mean SM but I forgot they used Kontakt! For some reason I had it in my head that after the sm/am split, they both developed their own engines.

This is even better news because it means that Kontakt isn't the bottleneck here. Yeah, think I'm going to buy the SM trumpets, because I've heard examples where ppl have combined them with IB and the combo has sounded excellent. And yes, their vibrato + transitions are very nuanced. 

From memory, their horns in forte or ff started to lose out to IB bit. Is that your impression too?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> I did mean SM but I forgot they used Kontakt! For some reason I had it in my head that after the sm/am split, they both developed their own engines.
> 
> This is even better news because it means that Kontakt isn't the bottleneck here. Yeah, think I'm going to buy the SM trumpets, because I've heard examples where ppl have combined them with IB and the combo has sounded excellent. And yes, their vibrato + transitions are very nuanced.
> 
> From memory, their horns in forte or ff started to lose out to IB bit. Is that your impression too?



I find SM harder to work with generally, espically in the louder dynamics. The fff is not as consistent across the whole range as IBs trumpets and something about the sizzle is very, very piercing. But if you need solo brass they are the best there is hands down, no competition.

IB sounds tons better as an ensemble and you have much more options because of the extensive list of instruments, but they lose out on the solo work.

The horn is also great and I would highly recommend it. You are correct that the loudest dynamics in the horn are not as good as IB and has some of that almost digital highend that the trumpet also has a little bit of, but it's worse in the horns. But the roundness/fatness of SM horn is so sweet.

The horn is the hardest to create a good ensemble sound from.

You will need to know a bit of mixing to get the most out of them. If your not planing on going into fff a lot and just keep them for solo lines they are A LOT simpler to mix. I would even say the trumpet is quite easy to mix.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> @aaronventure or anyone else know if the IS section sizes will be CC editable? Like, if I want to start a melodic line with a solo violin, and then ride CC whatever to dynamically add additional players one by one? How freakin' sweet would that be?


If I remember correctly, I belive Aaron said that the ensemble patch will have controllable section size (since it still loads the instruments individually) and divisi. I might be misremembering or things might have changed.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I find SM harder to work with generally, espically in the louder dynamics. The fff is not as consistent across the whole range as IBs trumpets and something about the sizzle is very, very piercing. But if you need solo brass they are the best there is hands down, no competition.
> 
> IB sounds tons better as an ensemble and you have much more options because of the extensive list of instruments, but they lose out on the solo work.
> 
> The horn is also great and I would highly recommend it. You are correct that the loudest dynamics in the horn are not as good as IB and has some of that almost digital highend that the trumpet also has a little bit of, but it's worse in the horns. But the roundness/fatness of SM horn is so sweet.
> 
> The horn is the hardest to create a good ensemble sound from.
> 
> You will need to know a bit of mixing to get the most out of them. If your not planing on going into fff a lot and just keep them for solo lines they are A LOT simpler to mix. I would even say the trumpet is quite easy to mix.


Great thank you! Really helps clarify the picture for me


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> If I remember correctly, I belive Aaron said that the ensemble patch will have controllable section size (since it still loads the instruments individually) and divisi. I might be misremembering or things might have changed.



It will be CC editable for sure, Aaron usually tries to avoid KS at all costs. I think it will be similar to SM Strings section size CC so you can start with a very small section (I don't know if it will start with a solo instrument) and make it grow with the developing of the track you are using.

To answer to the rest of the last posts I think that the things I'm able to do with Infinite Libraries are unprecedented except for some big names out there (SM and AM again).
I find the KS system to be outdated and the exact opposite of composing. It is so limiting and even boring that I think I can say "f*ck the tone flaws!". It is only my personal opinion based on my personal experience. Plus, we all know that Aaron keeps developing their libraries trying to get always the best out of them, so I think we will see other improvements in the future.

It is not a matter of being Aaron fanboys, it is a matter of praising the courage to finally do something different and something playable. I remember he once said that he did it for himself in the first place, and I'm very happy that he shared it with us too.

And finally I think that a blind test to understand what could be the better libary tone-wise is the better way to avoid placebo or fanboys because only the sound and the tone matter. There you cannot be influenced by your personal opinions or preferences. I could also do the test and find out that tone-wise I think that another library is better than AV one, this could open my eyes and let me be more careful about it, so only good achievement come from it.

This is only my opinion, I don't want to make it a war or an opinion battle. 

Cheers.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I continued my mock-up of the Zelda medley and tried a different mix for the brass. I pushed it a bit further back. Although, I didn't lower the volume so it might sound a bit odd that there's more early reflections and reverb while it still being loud and upfront.

I can't decide which I like the best for the brass. It's a subtle difference.

The first version is the original mix that I posted a few pages ago and it's closer and more upfront. It fits a bit better with the whole aesthetic that suites a Zelda game -- more intimate and close.

The second version is pushed back slightly and gives a wide and more grand feeling because of the added width. This setting fits better for larger crescendos and tuttis because it's more encompassing and feels bigger even if it's still the same ensemble size.

Which do you prefer?


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I continued my mock-up of the Zelda medley and tried a different mix for the brass. I pushed it a bit further back. Although, I didn't lower the volume so it might sound a bit odd that there's more early reflections and reverb while it still being loud and upfront.
> 
> I can't decide which I like the best for the brass. It's a subtle difference.
> 
> The first version is the original mix that I posted a few pages ago and it's closer and more upfront. It fits a bit better with the whole aesthetic that suites a Zelda game -- more intimate and close.
> 
> The second version is pushed back slightly and gives a wide and more grand feeling because of the added width. This setting fits better for larger crescendos and tuttis because it's more encompassing and feels bigger even if it's still the same ensemble size.
> 
> Which do you prefer?


Hmmm tough one. I THINK I prefer the pushed back version, but this is one of those where it is a "how am I feeling in this moment?" kind of preference. Very tough to pick one.


----------



## Nullhertz

Jonathan Moray said:


> I continued my mock-up of the Zelda medley and tried a different mix for the brass. I pushed it a bit further back. Although, I didn't lower the volume so it might sound a bit odd that there's more early reflections and reverb while it still being loud and upfront.
> 
> I can't decide which I like the best for the brass. It's a subtle difference.
> 
> The first version is the original mix that I posted a few pages ago and it's closer and more upfront. It fits a bit better with the whole aesthetic that suites a Zelda game -- more intimate and close.
> 
> The second version is pushed back slightly and gives a wide and more grand feeling because of the added width. This setting fits better for larger crescendos and tuttis because it's more encompassing and feels bigger even if it's still the same ensemble size.
> 
> Which do you prefer?


Yeah tough to choose, but if I had to, I'd pick the second one (pushed back) as well, because it sounds somewhat more natural and spatial to me. Nice work!


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> I continued my mock-up of the Zelda medley and tried a different mix for the brass. I pushed it a bit further back. Although, I didn't lower the volume so it might sound a bit odd that there's more early reflections and reverb while it still being loud and upfront.
> 
> I can't decide which I like the best for the brass. It's a subtle difference.
> 
> The first version is the original mix that I posted a few pages ago and it's closer and more upfront. It fits a bit better with the whole aesthetic that suites a Zelda game -- more intimate and close.
> 
> The second version is pushed back slightly and gives a wide and more grand feeling because of the added width. This setting fits better for larger crescendos and tuttis because it's more encompassing and feels bigger even if it's still the same ensemble size.
> 
> Which do you prefer?


Hmm. I'm not sure either. What's the mic setup you're using in both?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Hmmm tough one. I THINK I prefer the pushed back version, but this is one of those where it is a "how am I feeling in this moment?" kind of preference. Very tough to pick one.


Yeah, it's not easy. It's a rather subtle change and I agree that either works and one might work better than the other for different situations.

I'm planing my new template at the moment so I'm trying to figure a few things out. I've been referencing the recording for this mock-up and it has a closer sound that I quite like while still being wide and encompassing, but the closer setting in IB removes some of the grandiose and expansive impression. Still not sure which I like the most.

The way I hope to do it would be to have a closer sound in IB with the mixed mics and add another dimension with reverbs. My hope would be to try and get a template that mimics what a real recording session usually looks like, at least somewhat.



Reasy said:


> Yeah tough to choose, but if I had to, I'd pick the second one (pushed back) as well, because it sounds somewhat more natural and spatial to me. Nice work!


Thanks for your input, much appreciated.



FireGS said:


> Hmm. I'm not sure either. What's the mic setup you're using in both?


Simple really: Bersa, Mixed mic (3 for mid, 4 for far), a small dash of some reverb to add a bit more tail to the rather short Bersa Hall. That's it.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> The way I hope to do it would be to have a closer sound in IB with the mixed mics and add another dimension with reverbs. My hope would be to try and get a template that mimics what a real recording session usually looks like, at least somewhat.


Hehe, funny you should mention this. I had finally (FINALLY) after years, settled on a template that I liked. It was essentially the one I used to do that Enterprise mockup.

However, yesterday, I turned on my music machine after about 3 weeks (genuinely haven't had a chance in that long) and played through my template. Turns out that the latest thing I want to do is exactly what you've described in this paragraph. So get a closer sound, but adding that other dimension.

I have actually never tried Studio in 1.5. So I think I'm going to start with positions 4 or 5 in the Studio, and try adding a fair bit of ERs from a reverb, to give it that larger studio sound. Only issue is that I think brass and woods will sound too close compared with CSS, which I cannot get a 'close up to the mic' sound with. Even with the close mics, I get the feeling that the strings are sitting quite far back in the room.

Let me know how your experiment goes.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Hehe, funny you should mention this. I had finally (FINALLY) after years, settled on a template that I liked. It was essentially the one I used to do that Enterprise mockup.
> 
> However, yesterday, I turned on my music machine after about 3 weeks (genuinely haven't had a chance in that long) and played through my template. Turns out that the latest thing I want to do is exactly what you've described in this paragraph. So get a closer sound, but adding that other dimension.
> 
> I have actually never tried Studio in 1.5. So I think I'm going to start with positions 4 or 5 in the Studio, and try adding a fair bit of ERs from a reverb, to give it that larger studio sound. Only issue is that I think brass and woods will sound too close compared with CSS, which I cannot get a 'close up to the mic' sound with. Even with the close mics, I get the feeling that the strings are sitting quite far back in the room.
> 
> Let me know how your experiment goes.


I see.

My template is a bit convoluted and I'm still waiting for at least strings to really dig in, but I'll try and explain the basics.

IB & IW uses Bersa as the main hall because I like the sound and I think it's close enough to Trackdown making it easy to mix with CSS, CSB, CSW, and CSP whenever that gets released.

So, in Kontakt I try to get as close of a sound to the Bersa Hall as I can for all instruments by using close mics or any other tool at my disposal. If the instruments are too dry I'm planning on having a reverb that sounds like Bersa Hall that I can add as an insert and adjust to get the proper room sound and positioning in relation to the other instruments. (Still tweaking and looking at different reverbs to get what I'm looking for)

After that, I route all instruments to one of the three main reverb Close, Mid, Far (Reverbs for surround/quad not include for simplicities sake). In these reverbs I make sure that all instruments have the correct/proper volume, and when I'm happy that volume relation between the instruments and sections never changes, like the tree mics when you record a full orchestra together. Depending on the setup if you record an orchestra together in a room you can't just raise the tree mics for certain instruments.

The only way to raise an instrument or section would be to raise the close and/or spot mics -- meaning, raising the close/spot mics post-sends so that it doesn't raise the signal sent to the reverbs.

That's the gist of it.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Close, Mid, Far


Did I understand correctly that you have 3 sends for 3 separate reverbs? And by close, mid, far, do you mean that you're using convolution for each in which the natural placement of the IR is such that it gives the impression of different distance (depending on which reverb you sent it to?).

I thin I'm confused (but very curious) about what you mean when you say having the correct volume. What I have at the moment is that if I change the send amount to the reverb, the volume of that section changes. I think what you're describing avoids this issue.

Not quite sure how I can raise close mics post-send? I thought that whatever I did in the instrument, would also be sent to the Reverb, and therefore amplify its sound? Have I missed something basic?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Did I understand correctly that you have 3 sends for 3 separate reverbs? And by close, mid, far, do you mean that you're using convolution for each in which the natural placement of the IR is such that it gives the impression of different distance (depending on which reverb you sent it to?).


That is correct. You could probably do it with just one reverb if you wanted but I want to be able to change a few settings for the different distances and for me using multiple reverbs give a thicker and more interesting sound.

I haven't decided if I want to use IRs or a algo reverb. Right now I have a couple of custom IRs that I might use but I do like algo reverbs more because of their non-linear nature and the customizability. The three reverbs are just there to add a bigger sense of space and room. But before any library hit the reverbs they will already have been "mixed" and made to fit in with the other libraries I use. So these reverbs work more as glue not to make dryer libraries fit with the wet ones.

These three reverbs don't necessarily need to be "real" sounding depending on what sound I'm going for.



I like music said:


> I thin I'm confused (but very curious) about what you mean when you say having the correct volume. What I have at the moment is that if I change the send amount to the reverb, the volume of that section changes. I think what you're describing avoids this issue.


By correct volume I mean that if you listen to something solely through the tree mics everything has a certain volume. So the three reverbs when combined will serve as something like the decca tree mics or surround mics.

If you are recording an orchestra with only tree mics and surround you are very limited in what you can do. For example, if you want to raise the strings to be heard over the fff brass you can't just raise the decca tree or surround since those mics are also capturing the brass if you did you would effectively raise the whole orchestra volume, you will need to raise the close mics for that specific section.

If I'm using VSL (the old pre-synchron series) and SSS which both have very different rooms I wouldn't send more of VSL to the three reverbs to make it fit with SSS. Making it fit and sound the same would already be done before it hits one of the three reverbs. They would both hit the reverb at the same volume as if they are playing in the same room and the decca tree/surround is picking up them up.



I like music said:


> Not quite sure how I can raise close mics post-send? I thought that whatever I did in the instrument, would also be sent to the Reverb, and therefore amplify its sound? Have I missed something basic?


Not quite. It's usually called pre-fader sends. It sends the signal before it hits the fader on your mixer. So if you lower the fader all the way it will still send the signal to the reverb but you won't have any close mics.

If you're using Cubase it's possible to switch between pre- and post-fader. I just don't remember exactly how. If you right-click the send in the send list below the fx you should be able to change it. I think most daws allow for this. Reaper even allows for a lot more options.

This doesn't mean that you can change things in Kontakt or in your FX and not have them be sent to the Reverb.

It goes something like this:

---------- Reverb Send
---------------- ↑
Kontakt → FX → Fader → Section Group

So everything beyond the fader doesn't affect what is being sent to the reverb. I can raise or lower the whole section without it sending more or less of that section to the reverb. I can also EQ or compress the whole section it without it sending that to the reverb.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Hehe, funny you should mention this. I had finally (FINALLY) after years, settled on a template that I liked. It was essentially the one I used to do that Enterprise mockup.
> 
> However, yesterday, I turned on my music machine after about 3 weeks (genuinely haven't had a chance in that long) and played through my template. Turns out that the latest thing I want to do is exactly what you've described in this paragraph. So get a closer sound, but adding that other dimension.
> 
> I have actually never tried Studio in 1.5. So I think I'm going to start with positions 4 or 5 in the Studio, and try adding a fair bit of ERs from a reverb, to give it that larger studio sound. Only issue is that I think brass and woods will sound too close compared with CSS, which I cannot get a 'close up to the mic' sound with. Even with the close mics, I get the feeling that the strings are sitting quite far back in the room.
> 
> Let me know how your experiment goes.


I tried with Bersa and Mozarteum but I always went back to Studio because of to much wetness in my template. So I finally set almost everything to mixed mic 5 and Studio, then I put them in the panorama with Precedence and Breeze.
I like what I got.


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> If I remember correctly, I belive Aaron said that the ensemble patch will have controllable section size (since it still loads the instruments individually) and divisi. I might be misremembering or things might have changed.


I like the idea of auto-divisi very much, though I am also hoping for the option to have a few small sections on their own tracks. Let's say First chair, and 8, 4, 4. Or maybe even 4x4 for first violins though not sure how often I would use all 4 sections as individual voices. Even so having the ability to half the section in softer passages would be 👌


----------



## DANIELE

Jamus said:


> I like the idea of auto-divisi very much, though I am also hoping for the option to have a few small sections on their own tracks. Let's say First chair, and 8, 4, 4. Or maybe even 4x4 for first violins though not sure how often I would use all 4 sections as individual voices. Even so having the ability to half the section in softer passages would be 👌


I will probably build my template like this, at least 3 sections for every strings section plus the first chairs. I will probably add 3 or 4 solos tracks for section (maybe only 2 in violas and basses).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> I like the idea of auto-divisi very much, though I am also hoping for the option to have a few small sections on their own tracks. Let's say First chair, and 8, 4, 4. Or maybe even 4x4 for first violins though not sure how often I would use all 4 sections as individual voices. Even so having the ability to half the section in softer passages would be 👌


I too like the idea of auto-divis, I just don't like the execution. Never been a big fan of the way it's been implemented, and it's understandable it can't exactly read my mind so there will be some guessing and interpretation that I might not agree with. I rather have the control myself. It's going to be interesting to see what Aaron comes up with.

I'll probably have each instrument separated with its own midi channel and then have a midi track that sends to multiple of those tracks for the different sections.

So I'll have,
Violin Lead
Violin 1
Violin 2
Violin 3
... etc

Then I'll have a track called something like "Violins A (a8)" that sends midi to the first eight tracks and then maybe "Violins B (a4)" that sends to the next four and so on. That way I can easily have different sections at hand while still only loading them once.


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> I too like the idea of auto-divis, I just don't like the execution. Never been a big fan of the way it's been implemented, and it's understandable it can't exactly read my mind so there will be some guessing and interpretation that I might not agree with. I rather have the control myself. It's going to be interesting to see what Aaron comes up with.
> 
> I'll probably have each instrument separated with its own midi channel and then have a midi track that sends to multiple of those tracks for the different sections.
> 
> So I'll have,
> Violin Lead
> Violin 1
> Violin 2
> Violin 3
> ... etc
> 
> Then I'll have a track called something like "Violins A (a8)" that sends midi to the first eight tracks and then maybe "Violins B (a4)" that sends to the next four and so on. That way I can easily have different sections at hand while still only loading them once.


This doesnt make a ton of sense, from a logistics point of view. If theres an ensemble patch that can load, say, 8 Violins in one patch that contains all of the same details that 8x solos would (humanization, spatial, etc) - then why bother sending the exact same MIDI data to 8 seperate tracks instead of just one a8 ensemble patch?


----------



## Jamus

FireGS said:


> This doesnt make a ton of sense, from a logistics point of view. If theres an ensemble patch that can load, say, 8 Violins in one patch that contains all of the same details that 8x solos would (humanization, spatial, etc) - then why bother sending the exact same MIDI data to 8 seperate tracks instead of just one a8 ensemble patch?


So you have a choice between recording each individual of the 8 or simply arm the one track for a section of 8 rather than arming all 8 tracks. I did a similar thing with SWAM (until i gave up on making a section 😂)

This can actually be useful for other things. You could have a cello and a bass, and also a separate track that sends midi to both but transposes one channel (presumably bass) so you can have instant octaves on it's own track. How fun! Saves time on scrolling across a template to arm two tracks in different instrument sections 👍


----------



## FireGS

Yeah, but no - he says having..



Jonathan Moray said:


> I'll probably have each instrument separated with its own midi channel and then have a midi track that sends to multiple of those tracks for the different sections.


So 8x tracks, all with violins all them, all on different midi channels and a single MIDI track that sends to all of them - which would be all identical notes, timings, CC's, etc. Theres no reason to do that - just load an a8 ensemble and one midi track. 



Jamus said:


> So you have a choice between recording each individual of the 8 or simply arm the one track for a section of 8 rather than arming all 8 tracks. I did a similar thing with SWAM (until i gave up on making a section 😂)


That makes more sense, but not if you're feeding all 8 solos with the same MIDI data, which is what he said.


----------



## Jamus

FireGS said:


> That makes more sense, but not if you're feeding all 8 solos with the same MIDI data, which is what he said.


True, but I'm imagining with the way Infinite instruments are programmed to not machine gun, humanization active and perhaps more than one stage perspective for each section to spread the stereo field it may work quite nicely 👍 plus it could be fun to EQ each divisi section a bit different to get some tone variety in the section. Different mic mix even? Half Con Sordino!? Half harmonics!? Half Sul pont!!??. Man, so psyched 😁


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> So you have a choice between recording each individual of the 8 or simply arm the one track for a section of 8 rather than arming all 8 tracks. I did a similar thing with SWAM (until i gave up on making a section 😂)
> 
> This can actually be useful for other things. You could have a cello and a bass, and also a separate track that sends midi to both but transposes one channel (presumably bass) so you can have instant octaves on it's own track. How fun! Saves time on scrolling across a template to arm two tracks in different instrument sections 👍


Exactly. It's very useful. Yeah, I could, with some work, have different pre-made orchestration ready to go if I wanted. Violins and Flutes in unison, Celllo and Contrabass 8va and so on.

Usually, I like them to have their own midi info so that I can balance them better and give them slight differences, but it's much easier for writing.

My guess is that it didn't work very well with SWAM because it doesn't automatically humanize the tracks enough?

@FireGS, I think you're misunderstanding me or I'm misunderstanding you. Jamus actually seemed to have got I right.

They wouldn't be on different midi channels, they would probably be in their own instance of Kontakt. I know, I know, a bit wasteful but I like one instance per instrument better and it's easier to manage.

The reason I wouldn't use an Ensemble patch is because I would have to load an ensemble patch for each of the sizes I want and then also load every single instrument if I wanted them separate, which I do. When mixing I would have to either eq the string group or eq the individual strings + the ensemble. I also wouldn't be able to render each individual string player when it's playing the ensemble patch. It would clutter up the mixer needlessly, and I really adore the approach of one track per instrument.

I usually want to focus on the writing first and the mock-up second, so in the end, I would probably separate each section patch to their corresponding solo instrument and give them slight variations.


----------



## DANIELE

Here for you only as a preview the Star Wars Episode III Battle Of Coruscant rescored with IB and IW:




The video here is useful only for reference, I didn't sync everything, I used the video to think and write the music. I used part of a theme I already used in another Star Wars themed track.

I'm sorry for the very poor video quality but I ripped it off from YouTube, the scene sequence should not be the same of the movie but it was rearranged by the original video author. I choosed it because it has the length that I needed. It is an experiment and it served me well.

Writing this track was the most painful bunch of moments of my composing life (but also the funniest), I tried to do my real best at the moment but I'm confident I'll do better in the future. 

Enjoy and I hope it could be useful as always.


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> Here for you only as a preview the Star Wars Episode III Battle Of Coruscant rescored with IB and IW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The video here is useful only for reference, I didn't sync everything, I used the video to think and write the music. I used part of a theme I already used in another Star Wars themed track.
> 
> I'm sorry for the very poor video quality but I ripped it off from YouTube, the scene sequence should not be the same of the movie but it was rearranged by the original video author. I choosed it because it has the length that I needed. It is an experiment and it served me well.
> 
> Writing this track was the most painful bunch of moments of my composing life (but also the funniest), I tried to do my real best at the moment but I'm confident I'll do better in the future.
> 
> Enjoy and I hope it could be useful as always.



👏👏👏👏 Outstanding!


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Here for you only as a preview the Star Wars Episode III Battle Of Coruscant rescored with IB and IW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The video here is useful only for reference, I didn't sync everything, I used the video to think and write the music. I used part of a theme I already used in another Star Wars themed track.
> 
> I'm sorry for the very poor video quality but I ripped it off from YouTube, the scene sequence should not be the same of the movie but it was rearranged by the original video author. I choosed it because it has the length that I needed. It is an experiment and it served me well.
> 
> Writing this track was the most painful bunch of moments of my composing life (but also the funniest), I tried to do my real best at the moment but I'm confident I'll do better in the future.
> 
> Enjoy and I hope it could be useful as always.



Yes, absolutely fantastic!

@DANIELE since I know you're a perfectionist, and this isn't a critique, but more of a query. Those picc and flute runs (can't remember what you were doing). They felt a bit in the background/a bit lacking air. I've had this exact same problem. Either they're too up front, or when I push them back into the mix so that they sound right, then the runs suffer a little bit.

I wonder if in film scores they simply raise close mics for those moments?

Anyways, absolutely fantastic composition and superbly handled all the libraries. Which strings did you use again?


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Yes, absolutely fantastic!
> 
> @DANIELE since I know you're a perfectionist, and this isn't a critique, but more of a query. Those picc and flute runs (can't remember what you were doing). They felt a bit in the background/a bit lacking air. I've had this exact same problem. Either they're too up front, or when I push them back into the mix so that they sound right, then the runs suffer a little bit.
> 
> I wonder if in film scores they simply raise close mics for those moments?
> 
> Anyways, absolutely fantastic composition and superbly handled all the libraries. Which strings did you use again?


Yeah you are right, I'm just asking myself the same thing. If I set them louder then they are too upfront, if I set them quieter they seems too weak. On all the flute I raised high frequencies to give them more air (I miss the breath noise knob), I worked on them a lot by listening and looking at many scores and I think I got a pretty good result but I'm still not fully satisfied. You touched one of the thing is bothering me the most.

Here I put them at 5 with mixed mic in the studio enviroment because I felt them too loud with every other setting. On every track I make I try to improve the flute+picc runs but I'm start to thinking I'm really missing something only a real orchestra conductor/composer/player/musician could tell me.

If someone out there is reading this please give me some advices.

About the strings I only use SM Strings so those are the strings I'm using. The only strings I'll add to my template will be the Aaron ones and I'll complement them with SM Strings.


----------



## SirKen

@DANIELE @I like music
I remember reading how Alex added the OH mics to CSW for these purposes. I wonder if it would be possible to emulate the OH mics by sending the audio to another track with different reverb settings and then mix it back to simulate this behaviour.

@DANIELE Wonderful composition by the way. It might be just me but I felt like the percussion has a tighter stereo image than the rest of the instruments. It might be just me though.

Super impressed with the Brass though. Makes me regret passing on IB/IW combo during the sale. Will definitely pick them up when my finances are a bit better.


----------



## I like music

SirKen said:


> @DANIELE @I like music
> I remember reading how Alex added the OH mics to CSW for these purposes. I wonder if it would be possible to emulate the OH mics by sending the audio to another track with different reverb settings and then mix it back to simulate this behaviour.
> 
> @DANIELE Wonderful composition by the way. It might be just me but I felt like the percussion has a tighter stereo image than the rest of the instruments.
> 
> Super impressed with the Brass though. Makes me regret passing on IB/IW combo during the sale. Will definitely pick them up when my finances are a bit better.


Yes! I now remember about Alex's explanation. This is the avenue well worth exploring for those circumstances. Someone with better chops than mine can surely figure out how to simulate this through IW


----------



## DANIELE

SirKen said:


> @DANIELE @I like music
> I remember reading how Alex added the OH mics to CSW for these purposes. I wonder if it would be possible to emulate the OH mics by sending the audio to another track with different reverb settings and then mix it back to simulate this behaviour.
> 
> @DANIELE Wonderful composition by the way. It might be just me but I felt like the percussion has a tighter stereo image than the rest of the instruments. It might be just me though.
> 
> Super impressed with the Brass though. Makes me regret passing on IB/IW combo during the sale. Will definitely pick them up when my finances are a bit better.


I missed that explanation, I'm not following Alex libraries, I loved Cinematic Strings in the past, I used them a lot.
Maybe this could be the right explanation, I didn't think about that. I was always thinking about listening from the conductor (or audience) perspective but a recording is different, because of the mics positions.

I'll look at the percussions for the future tracks, my template is too big to try balance it without using it. I tried many times to balance it, I was satisfied and then not happy when I used it to compose. So actually I do it while I'm using it. Many percussions are unbalanced or need some adjustements, maybe this could be the case, I'll try to listen carefully to it. Could you tell me if it is a sensation through all the piece or maybe just in some spots?

Thank you for the compliments, I'm very happy with these instruments, I don't know if someone noticed the horns rip in the second half of the track. I was so excited to be able to realize it.



I like music said:


> Yes! I now remember about Alex's explanation. This is the avenue well worth exploring for those circumstances. Someone with better chops than mine can surely figure out how to simulate this through IW


I feel a disturbance in the force...in some way I feel like Aaron is thinking about something to improve that.

A thing I noticed by studying the scores is that in some particular loud runs there si some chord in the same register, for example a trumped chord. This trick let the winds to be louder while the trumpets "eat" some of the sound, I noticed it works well when I tried it.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> I don't know if someone noticed the horns rip in the second half of the track. I was so excited to be able to realize it.


Yes I did. Are you able to take a screenshot of how you achieved that?



DANIELE said:


> A thing I noticed by studying the scores is that in some particular loud runs there si some chord in the same register, for example a trumped chord. This trick let the winds to be louder while the trumpets "eat" some of the sound, I noticed it works well when I tried it.


I love little things like these. Interesting to hear. Might experiment with it and see.


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Yes I did. Are you able to take a screenshot of how you achieved that?
> 
> 
> I love little things like these. Interesting to hear. Might experiment with it and see.


Sure, here you are:






I found a lot of tricks by studying the scores, but I didn't understand them instantly. The JW scores (as many other composers ones) are fully of useful knowledge.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Sure, here you are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found a lot of tricks by studying the scores, but I didn't understand them instantly. The JW scores (as many other composers ones) are fully of useful knowledge.


Thanks so much!


----------



## mussnig

Hey there,

I have been toying around with IB and Seventh Heaven lately, especially since the video by Cory Pelizzari convinced me of this combo. So this means, that I use the dry signals from IB (by turning off the internal convolution reverb), use some stereo placement + EQ and then feed it into 7H. Now for single instruments this sounds really great to my ears.

However, when I want to build a Brass section, I always seem to get some phasing on the initial attacks (I'm not really an expert to tell if it's really phasing but anyways the combined attacks always sound weird to me - attacks of ensemble patches from other Brass libraries don't have this problem in my ears). I've played around with Humanization, Midi Delays, nudging Velocities and CCs etc. but I couldn't really solve the problem (it also doesn't seem to really improve when I play the parts in separately for each individual instrument). By the way, I am using 7H as a send because I am running on a laptop and usually need to be conservative with my resources once projects become larger (so maybe the issue is that I'm feeding both dry signals into the same verb?).

Did anyone experience something similar or knows some tricks?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

mussnig said:


> Hey there,
> 
> I have been toying around with IB and Seventh Heaven lately, especially since the video by Cory Pelizzari convinced me of this combo. So this means, that I use the dry signals from IB (by turning off the internal convolution reverb), use some stereo placement + EQ and then feed it into 7H. Now for single instruments this sounds really great to my ears.
> 
> However, when I want to build a Brass section, I always seem to get some phasing on the initial attacks (I'm not really an expert to tell if it's really phasing but anyways the combined attacks always sound weird to me - attacks of ensemble patches from other Brass libraries don't have this problem in my ears). I've played around with Humanization, Midi Delays, nudging Velocities and CCs etc. but I couldn't really solve the problem (it also doesn't seem to really improve when I play the parts in separately for each individual instrument). By the way, I am using 7H as a send because I am running on a laptop and usually need to be conservative with my resources once projects become larger (so maybe the issue is that I'm feeding both dry signals into the same verb?).
> 
> Did anyone experience something similar or knows some tricks?


If you really want help, it would be easier to help if you post audio examples, screenshots of your settings, a midi file to try it on our systems, etc.

Turning off the internal IRs are NOT recommended. That will create a lot of issues, especially if you don't put a very good reverb with different settings on each instrument. Bunching them together and sending them to 7H as a send is most likely going to sound bad and introduce a lot of phasing.


----------



## mussnig

Jonathan Moray said:


> If you really want help, it would be easier to help if you post audio examples, screenshots of your settings, a midi file to try it on our systems, etc.
> 
> Turning off the internal IRs are NOT recommended. That will create a lot of issues, especially if you don't put a very good reverb with different settings on each instrument. Bunching them together and sending them to 7H as a send is most likely going to sound bad and introduce a lot of phasing.


Thank you!

I will play around more with it and eventually post something. The only reason why I don't want to use the internal IRs is in order to save CPU ... but maybe I will just have to deal with it (anyways, I see my IB tracks more like real performances and find it ok to eventually bounce them to audio).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

mussnig said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I will play around more with it and eventually post something. The only reason why I don't want to use the internal IRs is in order to save CPU ... but maybe I will just have to deal with it (anyways, I see my IB tracks more like real performances and find it ok to eventually bounce them to audio).


Depending on how many instruments you use, a few IRs are probably more efficient than 7H, but I'm not sure.

If you're not already using the mixed IRs I would recommend that. It saves something like 40% of CPU.


----------



## mussnig

Jonathan Moray said:


> Depending on how many instruments you use, a few IRs are probably more efficient than 7H, but I'm not sure.
> 
> If you're not already using the mixed IRs I would recommend that. It saves something like 40% of CPU.


Yes, you are probably right. But the thing is, that at the moment my usual approach (for the whole orchestra/project) is to use three instances of 7H (basically with different early/late settings) and one instance of R4 (only tail), each on individual sends. Now with all my other libraries (which were recorded in all kinds of places), this usually gives me enough flexibility to blend them together convincingly (at least to my amateur ears) and it doesn't need a lot of CPU in total (because I am not using any additional reverbs and turn off all built-in reverbs of my libs).


----------



## Loïc D

mussnig said:


> Hey there,
> 
> I have been toying around with IB and Seventh Heaven lately, especially since the video by Cory Pelizzari convinced me of this combo. So this means, that I use the dry signals from IB (by turning off the internal convolution reverb), use some stereo placement + EQ and then feed it into 7H. Now for single instruments this sounds really great to my ears.
> 
> However, when I want to build a Brass section, I always seem to get some phasing on the initial attacks (I'm not really an expert to tell if it's really phasing but anyways the combined attacks always sound weird to me - attacks of ensemble patches from other Brass libraries don't have this problem in my ears). I've played around with Humanization, Midi Delays, nudging Velocities and CCs etc. but I couldn't really solve the problem (it also doesn't seem to really improve when I play the parts in separately for each individual instrument). By the way, I am using 7H as a send because I am running on a laptop and usually need to be conservative with my resources once projects become larger (so maybe the issue is that I'm feeding both dry signals into the same verb?).
> 
> Did anyone experience something similar or knows some tricks?


I had the same routing as yours, using auxes for reverb (Pro-R at the time).

This created a lot of issues : using sends adds to the volume and it’s a hell to mix ending up with volume differences between instruments and a muddy sound.

I’ve switched to a much simpler setup : instruments in sections are placed in IW (I only own this one) using Bersa IR and the instrument placement. They are routed to a bus. 7H Pro is inserted on the bus using ER only. I balance everything to feel like a room.
Then on my music master bus I add another instance of 7H for tails.

The outcome is way better than my previous setup. And it doesn’t much more resources than auxes routing.


----------



## mussnig

Loïc D said:


> I had the same routing as yours, using auxes for reverb (Pro-R at the time).
> 
> This created a lot of issues : using sends adds to the volume and it’s a hell to mix ending up with volume differences between instruments and a muddy sound.
> 
> I’ve switched to a much simpler setup : instruments in sections are placed in IW (I only own this one) using Bersa IR and the instrument placement. They are routed to a bus. 7H Pro is inserted on the bus using ER only. I balance everything to feel like a room.
> Then on my music master bus I add another instance of 7H for tails.
> 
> The outcome is way better than my previous setup. And it doesn’t much more resources than auxes routing.


Thank you, I will try that.

The mixing with sends is usually not a problem for me. The sends for 7H are set to pre-fader, which for me makes balancing easier (so this means that the tracks volume control will only have an effect on the dry signal). For general volume control (which will affect both the dry signal and the sends at the same time), I insert a simple utility/gain effect on the track (so the signal runs through this before the sends).


----------



## Supremo

Loïc D said:


> I had the same routing as yours, using auxes for reverb (Pro-R at the time).
> 
> This created a lot of issues : using sends adds to the volume and it’s a hell to mix ending up with volume differences between instruments and a muddy sound.
> 
> I’ve switched to a much simpler setup : instruments in sections are placed in IW (I only own this one) using Bersa IR and the instrument placement. They are routed to a bus. 7H Pro is inserted on the bus using ER only. I balance everything to feel like a room.
> Then on my music master bus I add another instance of 7H for tails.
> 
> The outcome is way better than my previous setup. And it doesn’t much more resources than auxes routing.


Why would you use an extra ER on IW instruments bus if Bersa IR already contains a good amount of early reflections?


----------



## imusic

another question ...

did Aaron ever do a "sale" on the "bundle" (brass/woodwinds) ? I am waiting for it and I will join in then ...


----------



## M0rdechai

599 dollars (excl tax) for IB+IW is the lowest I've seen it

Ow hello page 200. I believe my initial post has been somewhat answered.


----------



## I like music

M0rdechai said:


> 599 dollars (excl tax) for IB+IW is the lowest I've seen it
> 
> Ow hello page 200. I believe my initial post has been somewhat answered.


You really did start something ...


----------



## Trash Panda

imusic said:


> another question ...
> 
> did Aaron ever do a "sale" on the "bundle" (brass/woodwinds) ? I am waiting for it and I will join in then ...


I've only seen Black Friday sales. I guess we'll see if that changes this year.


----------



## Loïc D

Supremo said:


> Why would you use an extra ER on IW instruments bus if Bersa IR already contains a good amount of early reflections?


Ah good one!
Actually I deactivated 7H on my woodwinds bus thanks to Bersa. 
Are you looking over my shoulder ? :o


----------



## Supremo

Loïc D said:


> Ah good one!
> Actually I deactivated 7H on my woodwinds bus thanks to Bersa.
> Are you looking over my shoulder ? :o


Number one rule in mixing sample libraries: never add ER on top of another ER.


----------



## I like music

Supremo said:


> Number one rule in mixing sample libraries: never add ER on top of another ER.


Ah crap. There goes half my stuff. So does this mean that anything that wasn't done anechoically has ERs and therefore qualifies for tjis statement?


----------



## DANIELE

Supremo said:


> Number one rule in mixing sample libraries: never add ER on top of another ER.


...unless it sounds good.


----------



## DANIELE

M0rdechai said:


> 599 dollars (excl tax) for IB+IW is the lowest I've seen it
> 
> Ow hello page 200. I believe my initial post has been somewhat answered.


OMG, I actually noticed I'm on page 1, page 100 and now on page 200. Now some form of responsibility is taking shape.


----------



## Supremo

I like music said:


> Ah crap. There goes half my stuff. So does this mean that anything that wasn't done anechoically has ERs and therefore qualifies for tjis statement?


In most cases yes.


----------



## Raab

@aaronventure As we’re on page 200 now and this is kind of an anniversary, would it be ok to ask about Infinite Strings? 😬

I’m so fed up with all my strings and am soon pulling the trigger on the woodwinds.


----------



## Jamus

Supremo said:


> Number one rule in mixing sample libraries: never add ER on top of another ER.


What if my goal is too create a room within a room, within a room on top of a mountain inside of a train tunnel for my solo oboe? Ya know, to reflect the protagonists loneliness or whatever 😶


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I'm sick of not being able to perform runs, glisses, measured tremolos with my current string libs 😢


----------



## Raab

Jamus said:


> What if my goal is too create a room within a room, within a room on top of a mountain inside of a train tunnel for my solo oboe? Ya know, to reflect the protagonists loneliness or whatever 😶


For the right soundtrack of something inside something inside something, you might want to create your BRAAAAM patch with IBs bass trombones, contrabass tubas and cimbassi. 😄

Joking aside and not answering anyone’s questions but: IB actually works well for that nasty modern over the top hybrid scoring and I really dig the stage placement. You can achieve a great width by separately placing the instruments in the stereo field.


----------



## Trash Panda

Raab said:


> For the right soundtrack of something inside something inside something, you might want to create your BRAAAAM patch with IBs bass trombones, contrabass tubas and cimbassi. 😄
> 
> Joking aside and not answering anyone’s questions but: IB actually works well for that nasty modern over the top hybrid scoring and I really dig the stage placement. You can achieve a great width by separately placing the instruments in the stereo field.


No love for the contrabass trombone?


----------



## Raab

Trash Panda said:


> No love for the contrabass trombone?


Oh sorry, missed that one. I’ve indeed got it in my patch called „Deep Low End Brass“.


----------



## sctaylorcan

Jamus said:


> What if my goal is too create a room within a room, within a room on top of a mountain inside of a train tunnel for my solo oboe? Ya know, to reflect the protagonists loneliness or whatever 😶


Clearly some kind of mashup of Minecraft and Mixbus is needed in such a situation!! 🤣


----------



## Secret Soundworks

Raab said:


> For the right soundtrack of something inside something inside something, you might want to create your BRAAAAM patch with IBs bass trombones, contrabass tubas and cimbassi. 😄
> 
> Joking aside and not answering anyone’s questions but: IB actually works well for that nasty modern over the top hybrid scoring and I really dig the stage placement. You can achieve a great width by separately placing the instruments in the stereo field.


Do you have any example of Infinite Brass being used in a hybrid track, mainly at the higher dynamics, with ensembles made out of the individual instruments? I only came across very classical or traditional orchestral demos and showcases of it, but have never heard it used in that context, so just wondering how big it can get and how versatile it is. Would love to see how big mainly the horns and low brass can get when stacked up.


----------



## I like music

Secret Soundworks said:


> Do you have any example of Infinite Brass being used in a hybrid track, mainly at the higher dynamics, with ensembles made out of the individual instruments? I only came across very classical or traditional orchestral demos and showcases of it, but have never heard it used in that context, so just wondering how big it can get and how versatile it is. Would love to see how big mainly the horns and low brass can get when stacked up.


There are a few examples on this thread but its such a big thread that I can't even remember how far back that was. I definitely know that a couple of people have put such demos up. I'm sure someone will pop up and put them back on here soon.


----------



## DANIELE

Secret Soundworks said:


> Do you have any example of Infinite Brass being used in a hybrid track, mainly at the higher dynamics, with ensembles made out of the individual instruments? I only came across very classical or traditional orchestral demos and showcases of it, but have never heard it used in that context, so just wondering how big it can get and how versatile it is. Would love to see how big mainly the horns and low brass can get when stacked up.


I still didn't try this libraries in Hybrid Tracks, I should try maybe by remaking some old track of mine. Actually I did a more epic style track if it could be useful to you:



I think that IB and IW could perform very well in hybrid track too anyway, it only depends how you use them.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Secret Soundworks said:


> Do you have any example of Infinite Brass being used in a hybrid track, mainly at the higher dynamics, with ensembles made out of the individual instruments? I only came across very classical or traditional orchestral demos and showcases of it, but have never heard it used in that context, so just wondering how big it can get and how versatile it is. Would love to see how big mainly the horns and low brass can get when stacked up.


I think most people who gravitate towards these types of instruments aren't doing much hybrid/epic, so you might not get a lot of response and demos in that genre.

With that said, I think they would work very well for the more bombastic epic genre. They go loud, ver, loud in fact; they have great playability; you can create really big section sizes. If I were to use IB for something epic I would probably layer it with something else as well, which is not uncommon for the hybrid/epic genre anyway, just to add a bit extra thickness and dimension to the sound. But they would probably work quite well by themselves as well.


----------



## shawnsingh

I haven't put it through any epic-genre paces yet, but I do think it can do it just fine. The reason I feel confident about that is because of the similarities to some of my go-to epic brass libraries when I've compared them.

Compared to Hollywood Brass - Infinite, sounds a bit more "pure" and that makes it sound weird if you don't move CC dynamics around, but when adding the right CC sculpting to get good marcato and crescendos, it comes to life just like Hollywood Brass. Also, when it comes to the brightness you get from fff brass - I feel like Infinite's bright power, especially for trombones, feels a little higher frequency than other libraries. It doesn't feel wrong, but it's noticeably different and keeping that in mind can help when mixing.

Low brass, I've spent literally several hours just playing this combo and enjoying it:
- trombone 1 + trombone 3
- bass trombone 1
- bass trombone 3, 8ba
- optional contrabass trombone 1, 8ba
- tuba (or if you want more solid thundering bass, contrabass tuba), also 8ba.
- Bersa Hall, mic mix 2, with my own tuned EQs per instrument group. I'm sure Studio would work great for epic genre too, if you want your own reverbs.
- make sure to significantly ride CC dynamics. crescendos from 1 all the way to 127. Sharp Marcatos can be played in realtime by starting CC at 120 and pulling down as you hit the note. Rounded Marcato can start CC around 90, and having a bump up to 120, then back to 90-ish, all in quick succession . And you can experiment with note velocity accenting versus not accenting in that way too.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

DANIELE said:


> I still didn't try this libraries in Hybrid Tracks, I should try maybe by remaking some old track of mine. Actually I did a more epic style track if it could be useful to you:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that IB and IW could perform very well in hybrid track too anyway, it only depends how you use them.



Nice, thanks! Sounds good. 

My main concern was how it would sound for that ensemble sound, when you stack the horns for example to make an a6 patch or if you want to make a big low brass ensemble patch out of the various low brass instruments for that big wall of brass sound or some nice low braams and marcatos. If you happen to have any more demos or naked examples of how big it can get (just sustains or marcato style playing for example) then would love to hear them!


----------



## Secret Soundworks

Jonathan Moray said:


> I think most people who gravitate towards these types of instruments aren't doing much hybrid/epic, so you might not get a lot of response and demos in that genre.
> 
> With that said, I think they would work very well for the more bombastic epic genre. They go loud, ver, loud in fact; they have great playability; you can create really big section sizes. If I were to use IB for something epic I would probably layer it with something else as well, which is not uncommon for the hybrid/epic genre anyway, just to add a bit extra thickness and dimension to the sound. But they would probably work quite well by themselves as well.



Yeah that's true, it seems to be made more for classical or more traditional stuff with more control over each instrument. But the dynamic range is impressive, so I think with good layering of the instruments and orchestration it could do well in the more "epic" genres too.



shawnsingh said:


> I haven't put it through any epic-genre paces yet, but I do think it can do it just fine. The reason I feel confident about that is because of the similarities to some of my go-to epic brass libraries when I've compared them.
> 
> Compared to Hollywood Brass - Infinite, sounds a bit more "pure" and that makes it sound weird if you don't move CC dynamics around, but when adding the right CC sculpting to get good marcato and crescendos, it comes to life just like Hollywood Brass. Also, when it comes to the brightness you get from fff brass - I feel like Infinite's bright power, especially for trombones, feels a little higher frequency than other libraries. It doesn't feel wrong, but it's noticeably different and keeping that in mind can help when mixing.
> 
> Low brass, I've spent literally several hours just playing this combo and enjoying it:
> - trombone 1 + trombone 3
> - bass trombone 1
> - bass trombone 3, 8ba
> - optional contrabass trombone 1, 8ba
> - tuba (or if you want more solid thundering bass, contrabass tuba), also 8ba.
> - Bersa Hall, mic mix 2, with my own tuned EQs per instrument group. I'm sure Studio would work great for epic genre too, if you want your own reverbs.
> - make sure to significantly ride CC dynamics. crescendos from 1 all the way to 127. Sharp Marcatos can be played in realtime by starting CC at 120 and pulling down as you hit the note. Rounded Marcato can start CC around 90, and having a bump up to 120, then back to 90-ish, all in quick succession . And you can experiment with note velocity accenting versus not accenting in that way too.


Good to hear that it can be up there with Hollywood Brass. Would love to hear that combo you made for the Low Brass if you happen to have any demos or even short raw playing of them!


----------



## shawnsingh

Secret Soundworks said:


> Good to hear that it can be up there with Hollywood Brass. Would love to hear that combo you made for the Low Brass if you happen to have any demos or even short raw playing of them!


Sure, will try to record a few examples of horns, low brass, etc.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Secret Soundworks said:


> Yeah that's true, it seems to be made more for classical or more traditional stuff with more control over each instrument. But the dynamic range is impressive, so I think with good layering of the instruments and orchestration it could do well in the more "epic" genres too.
> 
> 
> Good to hear that it can be up there with Hollywood Brass. Would love to hear that combo you made for the Low Brass if you happen to have any demos or even short raw playing of them!


Here's a very quick example of six horns playing in the biggest hall. Recorded in one pass (all horns share the same midi) so it might be a bit static and not dynamic enough, but at least it shows the louder dynamics and what it is capable of. With editing, it could sound lots better.

So just because you have all the individual instruments it doesn't mean you really need to use them individually.


----------



## Trash Panda

Maybe this example will help for evaluating epic and hybrid possibilities? It's a super early sketch of an FF7 Remake song that I threw Infinite Brass into for fun. MIDI programming is crap and super high on the dynamics for maximum obnoxiousness.

I did nothing more than stack up several instruments into single Kontakt instances as outlined below. It would probably sound better with playing in the parts separately instead of programming them as a single VI.

I had to turn down the tracks with Infinite Brass by -12 to -15 dB because they were drowning out everything else.

Only effect is a limiter on the master bus.

Intro braams (1 Kontakt instance all set to Channel 1):
3 bass trombones
3 contrabass trombones
3 cimbassos
1 tuba
1 contrabass tuba
2 euphoniums

Intro horns:
6 french horns

Main brass ensemble:
6 french horns
3 tenor trombones
3 bass trombones
1 tuba
1 contrabass tuba
2 cimbasso (ran out of instrument slots)


----------



## Secret Soundworks

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's a very quick example of six horns playing in the biggest hall. Recorded in one pass (all horns share the same midi) so it might be a bit static and not dynamic enough, but at least it shows the louder dynamics and what it is capable of. With editing, it could sound lots better.
> 
> So just because you have all the individual instruments it doesn't mean you really need to use them individually.


Thanks! Sounds nice, big dynamic range. Played alongside it with my Century Brass Horns a6 (which is even brighter sounding), and IB definitely holds up well in comparison.



Trash Panda said:


> Maybe this example will help for evaluating epic and hybrid possibilities? It's a super early sketch of an FF7 Remake song that I threw Infinite Brass into for fun. MIDI programming is crap and super high on the dynamics for maximum obnoxiousness.
> 
> I did nothing more than stack up several instruments into single Kontakt instances as outlined below. It would probably sound better with playing in the parts separately instead of programming them as a single VI.
> 
> I had to turn down the tracks with Infinite Brass by -12 to -15 dB because they were drowning out everything else.
> 
> Only effect is a limiter on the master bus.
> 
> Intro braams (1 Kontakt instance all set to Channel 1):
> 3 bass trombones
> 3 contrabass trombones
> 3 cimbassos
> 1 tuba
> 1 contrabass tuba
> 2 euphoniums
> 
> Intro horns:
> 6 french horns
> 
> Main brass ensemble:
> 6 french horns
> 3 tenor trombones
> 3 bass trombones
> 1 tuba
> 1 contrabass tuba
> 2 cimbasso (ran out of instrument slots)



Nice! I like the horns, but something sounds a bit off to me on the low brass. It was mentioned here before but I guess its that the trombones for example are brighter or more emphasized in the higher frequencies + the very dry upfront sound. Love the playability though from what I've seen.


----------



## Trash Panda

Secret Soundworks said:


> Nice! I like the horns, but something sounds a bit off to me on the low brass. It was mentioned here before but I guess its that the trombones for example are brighter or more emphasized in the higher frequencies + the very dry upfront sound. Love the playability though from what I've seen.


It probably doesn't help that the MIDI programming isn't very well done. 

It's all super high velocity and CC1.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

Trash Panda said:


> It probably doesn't help that the MIDI programming isn't very well done.
> 
> It's all super high velocity and CC1.


Hmm yeah. Would it be possible to send some audio for that low brass setup with just some sustains CC rising in a linear way from 0-127 to the max dynamics and then holding at 127 for some seconds? (not realistic, but just want to hear the buzz and max power of the brass).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Secret Soundworks said:


> Hmm yeah. Would it be possible to send some audio for that low brass setup with just some sustains CC rising in a linear way from 0-127 to the max dynamics and then holding at 127 for some seconds? (not realistic, but just want to hear the buzz and max power of the brass).


The bite is insane. I mean it's ear fatiguingly aggressive and will cut through. I didn't use the max of anything on the horns cc120-125 and the attack much lower than that. I might be able to a quick rise in a minute.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Secret Soundworks, here's a simple rise.

View attachment JustACoupleOfTrombonesFFF.mp3


A couple of tenor trombones and one contrabass trombone 8vb. There are a lot more trombones to choose from if you want an even bigger sound.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

Jonathan Moray said:


> @Secret Soundworks, here's a simple rise.
> 
> View attachment JustACoupleOfTrombonesFFF.mp3
> 
> 
> A couple of tenor trombones and one contrabass trombone 8vb. There are a lot more trombones to choose from if you want an even bigger sound.


Awesome thanks. Sounds great


----------



## Trash Panda

Secret Soundworks said:


> Hmm yeah. Would it be possible to send some audio for that low brass setup with just some sustains CC rising in a linear way from 0-127 to the max dynamics and then holding at 127 for some seconds? (not realistic, but just want to hear the buzz and max power of the brass).


Sure. Here's 6 bars of each set (0 to 127, 127, 127 to 0 and repeat an octave lower), 1 bar of silence.

3x Tenor Bones
3x Bass Bones
3x Contrabass Bones
3x Cimbassi
2x Euphoniums
1x Tuba
1x Contrabass Tuba


----------



## DANIELE

Secret Soundworks said:


> Nice, thanks! Sounds good.
> 
> My main concern was how it would sound for that ensemble sound, when you stack the horns for example to make an a6 patch or if you want to make a big low brass ensemble patch out of the various low brass instruments for that big wall of brass sound or some nice low braams and marcatos. If you happen to have any more demos or naked examples of how big it can get (just sustains or marcato style playing for example) then would love to hear them!


In that track I was using IB 1.4, IB 1.5 is even better and you have a lot of instrument you can use to give power to the brass. Don't forget you also have Cimbassi and you can also set up 6 Cimbassi, 6 BTrombones, 6 CBTrombones, 2 Tubas, 2 CBTubas and maybe even 2 Euphonium on low register to achieve a HUGE low brass sound if you want. You can also exceed those numbers by adding even more of them.

I'm thinking about remaking this old track (it would be a remake of a remake, a double remake ):



It could be useful to get that kind of usage for the brass.

As I said I didn't compose any hybrid track with IB but maybe the last part of this track could be useful to you, it is mostly a fanfare kind of track but with an Epic feeling, in the beginning I'm also using some synth and the brass creates some kind of dark effects. Useful if you would like to understand what you can do with them. In the first part with the low ominus synth you can listen to low brass growling.


----------



## Trash Panda

And here is C2 > C1 > C0 for the full low brass ensemble minus tenor bones (they don't go to C0).


----------



## Secret Soundworks

Trash Panda said:


> And here is C2 > C1 > C0 for the full low brass ensemble minus tenor bones (they don't go to C0).


Thanks so much! These examples are very helpful! There seems to be a good amount of different colours in the various low brass instruments.


DANIELE said:


> In that track I was using IB 1.4, IB 1.5 is even better and you have a lot of instrument you can use to give power to the brass. Don't forget you also have Cimbassi and you can also set up 6 Cimbassi, 6 BTrombones, 6 CBTrombones, 2 Tubas, 2 CBTubas and maybe even 2 Euphonium on low register to achieve a HUGE low brass sound if you want. You can also exceed those numbers by adding even more of them.
> 
> I'm thinking about remaking this old track (it would be a remake of a remake, a double remake ):
> 
> 
> 
> It could be useful to get that kind of usage for the brass.
> 
> As I said I didn't compose any hybrid track with IB but maybe the last part of this track could be useful to you, it is mostly a fanfare kind of track but with an Epic feeling, in the beginning I'm also using some synth and the brass creates some kind of dark effects. Useful if you would like to understand what you can do with them. In the first part with the low ominus synth you can listen to low brass growling.



Thanks for sharing! At times it does sound a bit off or weird to me in the tone (mostly trombones) and the dryness, but I love the playability it offers and ditching keyswitches would be awesome. So a bit torn on it, but all these examples from you guys are tempting me haha.


----------



## Trash Panda

BTW, none of this includes doing something totally bonkers like 18 french horns or 16 cimbassi, which is something you can totally do with Infinite Brass (hence the infinite).


----------



## DANIELE

Secret Soundworks said:


> Thanks for sharing! At times it does sound a bit off or weird to me in the tone (mostly trombones) and the dryness, but I love the playability it offers and ditching keyswitches would be awesome. So a bit torn on it, but all these examples from you guys are tempting me haha.


As many of us said many times Aaron also keeps developing his libraries so you may see this as an investment too. You obviously need to like the library already but keep this in mind if you want to buy it.

You have to see at those libraries as something to shape to your need, but once you found the right shape then is a full music journey.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

DANIELE said:


> As many of us said many times Aaron also keeps developing his libraries so you may see this as an investment too. You obviously need to like the library already but keep this in mind if you want to buy it.
> 
> You have to see at those libraries as something to shape to your need, but once you found the right shape then is a full music journey.


Yeah that's a good point. Nice to have free updates. Interested to see how the strings turn out. A full playable orchestra is the dream, would make workflow so much better


----------



## Raab

Secret Soundworks said:


> Do you have any example of Infinite Brass being used in a hybrid track, mainly at the higher dynamics, with ensembles made out of the individual instruments? I only came across very classical or traditional orchestral demos and showcases of it, but have never heard it used in that context, so just wondering how big it can get and how versatile it is. Would love to see how big mainly the horns and low brass can get when stacked up.


Well, I’m mostly doing the more classical soundtrack approach and currently only have one hybrid track almost finished which is rather slow and ambient.

Let me see, if I can do something later that day. 😉


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Almost finished my Score Relief entry. Used lots of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds and I'm very happy with how it all ended up sounding. Infinite Trumpets combined with Sample Modeling Trumpets can be so lethal.
I used Cinewinds flutes with Infinite Woodwinds and it went together quite nicely. 

I did experience a lot of hanging notes throughout making this track, however.

I found layering Infinite libraries with standard libraries helps get that dynamic range and bite as well as a rounded room sound overall. I'll post here when it's definitely finished..


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Almost finished my Score Relief entry. Used lots of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds and I'm very happy with how it all ended up sounding. Infinite Trumpets combined with Sample Modeling Trumpets can be so lethal.
> I used Cinewinds flutes with Infinite Woodwinds and it went together quite nicely.
> 
> I did experience a lot of hanging notes throughout making this track, however.
> 
> I found layering Infinite libraries with standard libraries helps get that dynamic range and bite as well as a rounded room sound overall. I'll post here when it's definitely finished..


Looking forward to it! Man, I hope I get some sort of bonus this year because every time I've heard that IB + SM trumpet combination, it has blown my face off.


----------



## Raab

Ok well, inspiration didn't let me finish my hybrid piece but instead start with a new one.

This time almost exclusively brass. Note that I slightly layer the tenor trombones with bass trumpets. I don't know why but it just gives the trombones some more brassy quality.

View attachment The Troopers Are Marching.mp3


So that's in my case: 4 trumpets (none in this though), 4 horns, 4 tenor trombones (w. bass trumpets) and 2 bass trombones.

I can't stop saying how much I love IB.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Here's the entry using Infinite Brass and Woodwinds layered with other libraries. I'll post a isolated score version at some point.

Edit: Here's the isolated version:


----------



## campovsky

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Here's the entry using Infinite Brass and Woodwinds layered with other libraries. I'll post a isolated score version at some point.
> 
> Edit: Here's the isolated version:



Fantastic job! One of the best I’ve heard, very controlled/sensitive 

Here’s mine, clarinet, bassoon, and all brass are infinite (no layering at all, wanted to limit myself to as exactly the 27 players as possible!)

Not much experience with orchestration or mocking-up so feedback always welcome!


----------



## Jamus

Whew, some really good work here. Got me feeling like I need to practice more 😁


----------



## Arviwan

Hello you all 
I took advantage of the BlackFriday/Xmas sale and bought Brass & Woodwinds from Aaron Venture, and i must say i'm amazed ! 
I used them to score my version of Spring for the #scorerelief2021 and here is what it sounds like.
Any comments are welcome


----------



## shawnsingh

Secret Soundworks said:


> Do you have any example of Infinite Brass being used in a hybrid track, mainly at the higher dynamics, with ensembles made out of the individual instruments? I only came across very classical or traditional orchestral demos and showcases of it, but have never heard it used in that context, so just wondering how big it can get and how versatile it is. Would love to see how big mainly the horns and low brass can get when stacked up.



Another quick hybrid epic sketch. User errors - the low brass is mixed a little too bright and overpowers the melody at the end (EDIT - and also could use more reverb I think). I left my own personal "traditional scoring orchestral" EQ on, but I have a feeling the track will sound better with that off. But still the point gets across about the dynamic range of those trombones/tuba/cimbassi.

At a glance these Score Relief entries sound awesome! Going to listen more closely later.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

shawnsingh said:


> Another quick hybrid epic sketch. User errors - the low brass is mixed a little too bright and overpowers the melody at the end (EDIT - and also could use more reverb I think). I left my own personal "traditional scoring orchestral" EQ on, but I have a feeling the track will sound better with that off. But still the point gets across about the dynamic range of those trombones/tuba/cimbassi.
> 
> At a glance these Score Relief entries sound awesome! Going to listen more closely later.


Nice, thanks for the demo!


----------



## shawnsingh

"Infinite Strings: predictions from an optimist"

There's a lot of heavyweight competition in string libraries right now! A lot of recent/upcoming library updates and new libraries. Despite all this, I think Infinite Strings has a good chance to be one of the top ultimate libraries, especially with Aaron's tendency to iterate and greatly improve the products over time.

Most other libraries are squarely in the "wet-sampled, articulation-based" camp. That approach has some fundamental limitations that have always gnawed at me. There's only a limited number of short durations and attack styles to choose from. Realistic agile passages can have 3-4 notes overlapping (plus the reverb of many other notes), and also, sample libraries usually have a "weird precise" quality to agile legato, being only able to overlap 2 notes at a time and often without the lingering reverberation of previous notes. And, after having had a more direct taste of the workflow with libraries like Infinite, articulation switching starts to feel like a chore.

Dry samples and modeling seem to have better luck with agile legato and options to sculpt shorts (like using ADSR or MIDI note durations, neither of which work well enough when reverb is baked in), and the tradeoff had been that they're harder to mix.

The fully divisi approach, in my opinion, solves a lot of problems with getting realistic legato and realistic agility. Individual players can play with human-like authentic inaccuracy with 3-4 notes overlapping in agile passages. And in the future, eventually, the workflow can be just as easy as working with ensemble patches - auto-divisi is just the beginning of the "revolution". I personally believe there's a lot of undiscovered potential for humanization scripting on top of a modeling approach: (a) CC dynamics humanization based on the "speed" of CC change, (b) tempo/rhythm-aware note timing and velocity, (c) human-like vibrato depth/rate modulations, (d) intelligent finger/hand position simulations, which can be overridden by users when necessary, or generally controlled by "style" parameters, can help an engine play samples from the right string, and to emulate the right combination of legato "transition effects", i.e. finger-change vs finger-slide vs hand shifting up and down the neck + finger-change, transitions that cross strings, connected-bow-change transitions, and more.

Combine that with bespoke IRs... this helps remove the "add reverb and panning mixing challenge" that usually comes along with dry libraries. I have some vague ideas of the technical methods, and they are gong to be very challenging and tricky, but it is theoretically possible to sample the instrument and the venue IRs in such a way that we can perfectly represent how the instrument produces sound in all directions in 3d (i.e. the directivity pattern of the instrument), and even though I think the method would be advanced and hard, for the end-user, this can all be represented as mono or stereo samples (or multi-channel if that ends up being more practical), plus a single IR per instrument and per stage location. MIR is the best example so far of this approach but Infinite series bespoke IR approach could also be capable of this.

And the control scheme that Aaron has chosen, at least for my personal taste, matches very much the way of thinking I have when I want to sculpt a MIDI performance. I do think in terms of basically dynamics and vibrato, and dynamics can fall into subcategories like "attack sculpting" and "how dynamics continue across the sustain and release". And that's exactly the control that Infinite series provides. And the precision of control is also higher - "I want this note to be just a bit longer than the others" or "I want a burst of vibrato at the beginning of the note before it comes back to normal vibrato" - these are performance nuances that come naturally to my mind but not so easy to program in an articulation-based world.

And the last big selling point for me is Aaron's approach of continuing to work on the tone and performance characteristics of these instruments. I know I'm touting a lot of theoretical advantages of the modeling+bespokeIR approach, when it's arguably unproven yet. But maybe it's not completely unproven, with examples like Infinite Brass and Woodwinds and some legendary examples of string ensembles being painstakingly constructed from solo string virtual instruments. I think a lot of why the tech isn't fully there yet is because most companies are focusing on articulation-driven wet sampling. So, knowing that Aaron will be continuing to improve and perfect the Infinite Series, and also considering some of the competition looming on the horizon, makes me feel that the dry modeling + bespoke IR approach is gaining more momentum now. Especially for strings, where we love to hear the beauty of individuals within the ensemble, is where I would predict this approach can really shine and win people's hearts much more than brass and woodwinds.

So yeah, done rambling. I'm going to insta-buy Infinite Strings to support this vision!

Cheers!


----------



## Jamus

I'm all in with infinite. I've had enough of samples alone. What am I, a bloody DJ? I want to write the story with my hands, not cut and paste pre printed words from a newspaper 😂😂


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> "Infinite Strings: predictions from an optimist"
> 
> There's a lot of heavyweight competition in string libraries right now! A lot of recent/upcoming library updates and new libraries. Despite all this, I think Infinite Strings has a good chance to be one of the top ultimate libraries, especially with Aaron's tendency to iterate and greatly improve the products over time.
> 
> Most other libraries are squarely in the "wet-sampled, articulation-based" camp. That approach has some fundamental limitations that have always gnawed at me. There's only a limited number of short durations and attack styles to choose from. Realistic agile passages can have 3-4 notes overlapping (plus the reverb of many other notes), and also, sample libraries usually have a "weird precise" quality to agile legato, being only able to overlap 2 notes at a time and often without the lingering reverberation of previous notes. And, after having had a more direct taste of the workflow with libraries like Infinite, articulation switching starts to feel like a chore.
> 
> Dry samples and modeling seem to have better luck with agile legato and options to sculpt shorts (like using ADSR or MIDI note durations, neither of which work well enough when reverb is baked in), and the tradeoff had been that they're harder to mix.
> 
> The fully divisi approach, in my opinion, solves a lot of problems with getting realistic legato and realistic agility. Individual players can play with human-like authentic inaccuracy with 3-4 notes overlapping in agile passages. And in the future, eventually, the workflow can be just as easy as working with ensemble patches - auto-divisi is just the beginning of the "revolution". I personally believe there's a lot of undiscovered potential for humanization scripting on top of a modeling approach: (a) CC dynamics humanization based on the "speed" of CC change, (b) tempo/rhythm-aware note timing and velocity, (c) human-like vibrato depth/rate modulations, (d) intelligent finger/hand position simulations, which can be overridden by users when necessary, or generally controlled by "style" parameters, can help an engine play samples from the right string, and to emulate the right combination of legato "transition effects", i.e. finger-change vs finger-slide vs hand shifting up and down the neck + finger-change, transitions that cross strings, connected-bow-change transitions, and more.
> 
> Combine that with bespoke IRs... this helps remove the "add reverb and panning mixing challenge" that usually comes along with dry libraries. I have some vague ideas of the technical methods, and they are gong to be very challenging and tricky, but it is theoretically possible to sample the instrument and the venue IRs in such a way that we can perfectly represent how the instrument produces sound in all directions in 3d (i.e. the directivity pattern of the instrument), and even though I think the method would be advanced and hard, for the end-user, this can all be represented as mono or stereo samples (or multi-channel if that ends up being more practical), plus a single IR per instrument and per stage location. MIR is the best example so far of this approach but Infinite series bespoke IR approach could also be capable of this.
> 
> And the control scheme that Aaron has chosen, at least for my personal taste, matches very much the way of thinking I have when I want to sculpt a MIDI performance. I do think in terms of basically dynamics and vibrato, and dynamics can fall into subcategories like "attack sculpting" and "how dynamics continue across the sustain and release". And that's exactly the control that Infinite series provides. And the precision of control is also higher - "I want this note to be just a bit longer than the others" or "I want a burst of vibrato at the beginning of the note before it comes back to normal vibrato" - these are performance nuances that come naturally to my mind but not so easy to program in an articulation-based world.
> 
> And the last big selling point for me is Aaron's approach of continuing to work on the tone and performance characteristics of these instruments. I know I'm touting a lot of theoretical advantages of the modeling+bespokeIR approach, when it's arguably unproven yet. But maybe it's not completely unproven, with examples like Infinite Brass and Woodwinds and some legendary examples of string ensembles being painstakingly constructed from solo string virtual instruments. I think a lot of why the tech isn't fully there yet is because most companies are focusing on articulation-driven wet sampling. So, knowing that Aaron will be continuing to improve and perfect the Infinite Series, and also considering some of the competition looming on the horizon, makes me feel that the dry modeling + bespoke IR approach is gaining more momentum now. Especially for strings, where we love to hear the beauty of individuals within the ensemble, is where I would predict this approach can really shine and win people's hearts much more than brass and woodwinds.
> 
> So yeah, done rambling. I'm going to insta-buy Infinite Strings to support this vision!
> 
> Cheers!


@aaronventure 
You can't +1 month this. Surely the quoted text is worth of -1 month.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I like music said:


> @aaronventure
> You can't +1 month this. Surely the quoted text is worth of -1 month.


Don't jinx us any further!


----------



## I like music

Ethan Toavs said:


> Don't jinx us any further!


2028 release by now


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I like music said:


> 2028 release by now


If you keep this up, we won't see it until 2121.


----------



## I like music

Ethan Toavs said:


> If you keep this up, we won't see it until 2121.


Better start saving up, because that's the year EW OPUS gets released, too.


----------



## ManOn1st

Hi everyone. I'm relatively new to this site. I'm a pianist and I'm just starting to delve more into composition and orchestration. I bought the Aaron Venture wind and brass bundle (though I'm still learning it) and am psyched about the strings library. I'm a late comer to modeled instruments (outside of Pianoteq of course!), but so wish I would have found them sooner, before spending so much cheddar on bulky sample-based instruments. Though modeled instruments may not be fully there yet sound-wise, I consider my purchase partly a donation to encourage future development down this path.

The development of modeled instruments reminds me of a game I play with my kids to encourage their sense of invention. I say, "when you're 60 years old, you'll be telling your grandkids that when _you_ were a child, you had to....." and they fill in the blank with something they think will have their grandchildren looking at them bewildered or laughing. Like, "when I was a child, we actually had to mine this liquid made from dinosaur fossils, and feed that liquid into our cars to make them go, and people actually fought wars over this stuff because there wasn't enough to go around! Can you believe it?" Or "when I was a kid, we actually had to plug long wires into these sockets in the wall in order to get our televisions to work!" 

Or - "I remember when a guy would have to sit and record every single note, transition, and articulation of a real performer of an instrument - sometimes taking several years - in order to create a half way decent emulation of that instrument. And that "sampled instrument" would end up being so large, spanning so many gigabytes or terabytes, that users would have to run slave computers in order host so much data. And you had to load a different patch or track for each articulation (of the same instrument!), which would further risk crashing your system" LOL. And then our grandchildren would look at us like the dinosaurs we are, and laugh, before going back to play their modeled instruments on their sleek little computers!

I can't imagine sample-based instruments will be around beyond 1 or 2 more generations. The technology is horrendous, but served its purpose while we needed it. I hope the smaller innovators like Aaron Venture are able to fend off the intense competition that is likely to come once the big players decide to jump in, and that they'll be rewarded financially for moving the ball forward.


----------



## Evans

ManOn1st said:


> I can't imagine sample-based instruments will be around beyond 1 or 2 more generations.


This is a tough statement. It's been drilled into our heads for so long how cool it is for recordings to occur at Sony or AIR or Abbey Road or Teldex and so on, that we may need a _ridiculously _capable, flexible solution to supplant live recordings.

Our ears already struggle with the sound of combining multiple patches into a cohesive ensemble. It's partially why some releases like Albion ONE or "full orchestra" patches in other libraries exist (see: BBO Andromeda). It's a difficult sound to recreate.


----------



## Jamus

Evans said:


> This is a tough statement. It's been drilled into our heads for so long how cool it is for recordings to occur at Sony or AIR or Abbey Road or Teldex and so on, that we may need a _ridiculously _capable, flexible solution to supplant live recordings.
> 
> Our ears already struggle with the sound of combining multiple patches into a cohesive ensemble. It's partially why some releases like Albion ONE or "full orchestra" patches in other libraries exist (see: BBO Andromeda). It's a difficult sound to recreate.


One reverb to rule them all, one reverb to find them, one reverb to bring them all and in the mix bind them.


----------



## Zane Smith

Here's another Infinite Brass mockup, excerpt of Joe Hisaishi's "Water Traveller". Still have to clean up the horns in the opening measures, but I was really surprised with how well everything responded to the eight-note triplets.


----------



## Raab

Does anybody know if we'll get a new bundle with IB, IW and IS and some crossgrade possibilities? I highly assume so, regarding AV's policy at the moment.

EDIT: Just saw this. What does that mean? *hyped*


----------



## I like music

Zane Smith said:


> Here's another Infinite Brass mockup, excerpt of Joe Hisaishi's "Water Traveller". Still have to clean up the horns in the opening measures, but I was really surprised with how well everything responded to the eight-note triplets.


Hey! Is it possible to see a screenshot of the horns perhaps?

Really nice.


----------



## I like music

Raab said:


> Does anybody know if we'll get a new bundle with IB, IW and IS and some crossgrade possibilities? I highly assume so, regarding AV's policy at the moment.
> 
> EDIT: Just saw this. What does that mean? *hyped*


When one stalker is sleeping, another stalker keeps watch.

I salute you.

This can only mean strings.

You may sleep now, for I will camp outside Aaron's house and keep an eye on this.


----------



## I like music

I like music said:


> This can only mean strings.


Disclaimer: This has never been confirmed.

But basically it has to be, right?


----------



## DANIELE

Raab said:


> Does anybody know if we'll get a new bundle with IB, IW and IS and some crossgrade possibilities? I highly assume so, regarding AV's policy at the moment.
> 
> EDIT: Just saw this. What does that mean? *hyped*


I think it is only what it say, a maintenance. I feel that we won't see strings anytime soon, but I must say I'm still a padawan so my sensing of the force could be not so powerful.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Everyone keep calm. Aaron doesn't maintain the actual store himself he uses Fastspring for that so I would guess it's just standard maintenance from Fastspring.

Being optimistic it could also have something to do with the Strings. Still says Q1 in the FAQ and the last month of Q1 is March. A little more than a month left if everything goes according to plan.


----------



## Raab

Jonathan Moray said:


> Everyone keep calm. Aaron doesn't maintain the actual store himself he uses Fastspring for that so I would guess it's just standard maintenance from Fastspring.
> 
> Being optimistic it could also have something to do with the Strings. Still says Q1 in the FAQ and the last month of Q1 is March. A little more than a month left if everything goes according to plan.


I was kind of exaggerating it in a ironic way. 

But yeah, I'm just optimistic and quite excited about it.


----------



## Trash Panda

Raab said:


> EDIT: Just saw this. What does that mean? *hyped*


It is likely some kind of boring back end maintenance. I wouldn’t read too much into it.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> Everyone keep calm. Aaron doesn't maintain the actual store himself he uses Fastspring for that so I would guess it's just standard maintenance from Fastspring.
> 
> Being optimistic it could also have something to do with the Strings. Still says Q1 in the FAQ and the last month of Q1 is March. A little more than a month left if everything goes according to plan.


A little more than a month is almost two month here. 
Unless you think that strings are coming in mid-March, but I think it will be March 32th.

Let's hope the FAQ doesn't became "Q2".


----------



## Raab

Trash Panda said:


> It is likely some kind of boring back end maintenance. I wouldn’t read too much into it.


Yep, probably. Like I said, I was just making fun of my own optimistic hype and over exaggerating. 😄

But one shouldn’t stop dreaming.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

DANIELE said:


> Let's hope the FAQ doesn't change in "Q2".


You all really need to stop giving him ideas.


----------



## Zane Smith

I like music said:


> Hey! Is it possible to see a screenshot of the horns perhaps?
> 
> Really nice.


Here you go! I used Bersa Hall and kept every instrument in their default stage position, with a bit of panning.


----------



## DANIELE

Ethan Toavs said:


> You all really need to stop giving him ideas.


It was more an attempt to pity him.


----------



## I like music

Zane Smith said:


> Here you go! I used Bersa Hall and kept every instrument in their default stage position, with a bit of panning.


Many thanks! So you achieved that sound just with that and no other massaging? Nice. I assumed you had applied some heavy 'humanisation' and some pitch bending etc.


----------



## Zane Smith

I like music said:


> Many thanks! So you achieved that sound just with that and no other massaging? Nice. I assumed you had applied some heavy 'humanisation' and some pitch bending etc.


Yeah, fairly little fiddling. I applied a tiny bit of mid boost to the horns and some other small EQ-ing to the other instruments. With humanization I kept it pretty low actually, around 10-20 and didn’t add any pitch modulation. It’s practically an out of the box sound.


----------



## Chris Richter

@Zane Smith Nice! Did I get that right, that you "clicked it in" and humanized the note start by 10-20%? Or the velocity, too?


----------



## Zane Smith

CQrity said:


> @Zane Smith Nice! Did I get that right, that you "clicked it in" and humanized the note start by 10-20%? Or the velocity, too?


Yep that's right. I barley touched the velocity, I kept most of it all from my performance into the DAW.


----------



## Chris Richter

Thanks for teaking the time to respond!
So you didn't click it in by mouse but play it in then?


----------



## Zane Smith

CQrity said:


> Thanks for teaking the time to respond!
> So you didn't click it in by mouse but play it in then?


Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Click in this context made me think click track lol.


----------



## Chris Richter

Never mind. Thanks buddy!


----------



## I like music

Zane Smith said:


> Yeah, fairly little fiddling. I applied a tiny bit of mid boost to the horns and some other small EQ-ing to the other instruments. With humanization I kept it pretty low actually, around 10-20 and didn’t add any pitch modulation. It’s practically an out of the box sound.


Nice. Yeah, my favourite brass.


----------



## Jamus

So I'm thinking of the possibilities with IP.. As it is with flutters and growls in IB and IW I can see rolls being completely controllable speed and all whether it be timpani, cymbals, marimba or the enigmatic triangle. Modelled drum damping and cymbal chokes using pedal would be next level convenience. Maybe a slider that models moving from center drum to edge? Like IB with the mutes slider there may be a hard/soft/brush sticks slider? Tom ensembles with humanize enabled would be epic. Or perhaps there will be a section size slider? I imagine timpani tuning will be a thing for when you need to compose circus music 🤣


----------



## DANIELE

Jamus said:


> So I'm thinking of the possibilities with IP.. As it is with flutters and growls in IB and IW I can see rolls being completely controllable speed and all whether it be timpani, cymbals, marimba or the enigmatic triangle. Modelled drum damping and cymbal chokes using pedal would be next level convenience. Maybe a slider that models moving from center drum to edge? Like IB with the mutes slider there may be a hard/soft/brush sticks slider? Tom ensembles with humanize enabled would be epic. Or perhaps there will be a section size slider? I imagine timpani tuning will be a thing for when you need to compose circus music 🤣


Yeah the damping is what I'd really like to see from IP, especially for timpani. Same thing for the sticks type, it would be awesome to have that amount of control. But we are very far from IP now, let's focus on waiting for IS.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Hey guys, which of these do you prefer? It's Infinite Brass and Sample Modeling layered. the one labelled ALT has less dramatic EQ shape. The one without ALT has heavy EQ cutting out the low/mid frequencies (I find that usually sounds better in a busy mix).


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey guys, which of these do you prefer? It's Infinite Brass and Sample Modeling layered. the one labelled ALT has less dramatic EQ shape. The one without ALT has heavy EQ cutting out the low/mid frequencies (I find that usually sounds better in a busy mix).



Think I like the 2nd one more, but perhaps it is context-dependant like you said. Also I'm on my laptop speakers so that probably removes most of the credibility of this answer.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

here is the same trumpets layered with Horns (Infinite and Caspian) and Trombones (Infinite and Caspian)


----------



## Secret Soundworks

NeonMediaKJT said:


> here is the same trumpets layered with Horns (Infinite and Caspian) and Trombones (Infinite and Caspian)



Sounds nice! I have Caspian and ABP, how would you say they play along with Infinite Brass? For a fully playable brass setup. I think they could give nice ambience to the drier sound of IB


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Secret Soundworks said:


> Sounds nice! I have Caspian and ABP, how would you say they play along with Infinite Brass? For a fully playable brass setup. I think they could give nice ambience to the drier sound of IB


That's exactly why I layer it with Caspian! 😊 Since Caspian is so playable in itself and has a full, roomy sound, you can add is at a quieter level behind infinite and it'll make it feel more spacious. Infinite and Sample modeling for the sharp, crispiness and Caspian for the warmness, I suppose.


----------



## Nullhertz

Just started a new track featuring IWW. This is my first dedicated woodwinds lib so I'm getting used to implement them properly, but so far I really like the workflow and sound. 
View attachment Winding through Grasslands_v03.mp3


----------



## Dan

I wanted to share the music to my entry in the ScoreRelief Competition. All the woodwinds and brass are from Infinite, the rest is Spitfire Chamber Strings, CSS for some legatos, BBCSO Core for Percussion, Ravenscroft for Piano and Sample Modeling for the solo cello part. I wrote this specifically for the 27-piece orchestra that was specified in the competition, so there are only 2 horns, and one each of trumpet, trombone, flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon. I tried to really use the flexibility of the Infinite libraries to my advantage, and it was just a joy to work with them. I especially loved the range I could get from the horns. My mixing is probably not the best though...

View attachment ScoreRelief-Dan.mp3


----------



## I like music

Dan said:


> I wanted to share the music to my entry in the ScoreRelief Competition. All the woodwinds and brass are from Infinite, the rest is Spitfire Chamber Strings, CSS for some legatos, BBCSO Core for Percussion, Ravenscroft for Piano and Sample Modeling for the solo cello part. I wrote this specifically for the 27-piece orchestra that was specified in the competition, so there are only 2 horns, and one each of trumpet, trombone, flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon. I tried to really use the flexibility of the Infinite libraries to my advantage, and I was just a joy to work with them. I especially loved the range I could get from the horns. My mixing is probably not the best though...
> 
> View attachment ScoreRelief-Dan.mp3


I'm on shite speakers so won't even try to comment on the libraries (though they do sound great and well balanced). But I do want to congratulate you on the amazing music! Very nice work.


----------



## Loïc D

Dan said:


> I wanted to share the music to my entry in the ScoreRelief Competition. All the woodwinds and brass are from Infinite, the rest is Spitfire Chamber Strings, CSS for some legatos, BBCSO Core for Percussion, Ravenscroft for Piano and Sample Modeling for the solo cello part. I wrote this specifically for the 27-piece orchestra that was specified in the competition, so there are only 2 horns, and one each of trumpet, trombone, flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon. I tried to really use the flexibility of the Infinite libraries to my advantage, and I was just a joy to work with them. I especially loved the range I could get from the horns. My mixing is probably not the best though...
> 
> View attachment ScoreRelief-Dan.mp3


Excellent writing skills !
Totally loved it, I don’t even need the pictures


----------



## Luka

Does Aaron Venture usually have sales for the Infinite Series? Like during Black Friday…?
Sorry if it's been asked before, I couldn't find the information.


----------



## doctoremmet

Luka said:


> Does Aaron Venture usually have sales for the Infinite Series? Like during Black Friday…?
> Sorry if it's been asked before, I couldn't find the information.


Definitely not regularly. Realistically, I have only seen discounts on releases.


----------



## FireGS

Hey remember we were talking about "ducky" Oboe? Take a listen to this:

View attachment Oboe Test 1-21.mp3


Too bad this is a real player LOL...

Now, with some MIR:

View attachment WindWaker Edit 8 Export 1.mp3


----------



## Luka

Also, I'm wondering how the library does for someone who isn't a piano player and pretty much has to enter every note manually instead of playing them. I get that the point of the library is to be able to play it in, but even if I were to enter the notes manually, wouldn't it still be a joy to not have to keyswitch the articulations and just play with the velocity and modulation (which you have to do with other libraries too anyway)?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Luka said:


> Also, I'm wondering how the library does for someone who isn't a piano player and pretty much has to enter every note manually instead of playing them. I get that the point of the library is to be able to play it in, but even if I were to enter the notes manually, wouldn't it still be a joy to not have to keyswitch the articulations and just play with the velocity and modulation (which you have to do with other libraries too anyway)?


I lazily play it in and do a lot of mouse modifications because I suck at playing, lol. It's easy to use mouse, so should be fine


----------



## I like music

Luka said:


> Also, I'm wondering how the library does for someone who isn't a piano player and pretty much has to enter every note manually instead of playing them. I get that the point of the library is to be able to play it in, but even if I were to enter the notes manually, wouldn't it still be a joy to not have to keyswitch the articulations and just play with the velocity and modulation (which you have to do with other libraries too anyway)?


I never play a single thing in. It is super super easy to click it in. Easiest library for me in that regard


----------



## Woodie1972

Luka said:


> Also, I'm wondering how the library does for someone who isn't a piano player and pretty much has to enter every note manually instead of playing them. I get that the point of the library is to be able to play it in, but even if I were to enter the notes manually, wouldn't it still be a joy to not have to keyswitch the articulations and just play with the velocity and modulation (which you have to do with other libraries too anyway)?


 I'm not good at the piano, so I need to enter the notes in the score editor of Cubase, or enter them with the mouse as you do. Not the best way, I admit, but it works. 
When I use Dorico and enter the notes and use articulations like legato and staccato, then playback is immediately right.


----------



## Dan

Luka said:


> Also, I'm wondering how the library does for someone who isn't a piano player and pretty much has to enter every note manually instead of playing them. I get that the point of the library is to be able to play it in, but even if I were to enter the notes manually, wouldn't it still be a joy to not have to keyswitch the articulations and just play with the velocity and modulation (which you have to do with other libraries too anyway)?


I edit my melodic lines a LOT after awkwardly playing in some notes. I also enter whole parts via mouse if they exceed my playing skills, which they often do. But even if I manage to play and record a melody with CC1 and everything, I always go back and edit some of the data because my performances are far from perfect.

So in my case, entering more complicated parts via mouse is not too much of an extra step, it works very well for me. You just have to know what kind of performance you want and how you can achieve it by manually editing velocity and CC1 – then it's really just an absolute joy to see how responsive these libraries are to the tiniest of changes. 

For me Infinite isn't really playing and capturing a performance as much as meticulously shaping a performance down to the tiniest detail, and conventional libraries with keyswitches can't offer that right now in my opinion.


----------



## Jamus

Dan said:


> I wanted to share the music to my entry in the ScoreRelief Competition. All the woodwinds and brass are from Infinite, the rest is Spitfire Chamber Strings, CSS for some legatos, BBCSO Core for Percussion, Ravenscroft for Piano and Sample Modeling for the solo cello part. I wrote this specifically for the 27-piece orchestra that was specified in the competition, so there are only 2 horns, and one each of trumpet, trombone, flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon. I tried to really use the flexibility of the Infinite libraries to my advantage, and it was just a joy to work with them. I especially loved the range I could get from the horns. My mixing is probably not the best though...
> 
> View attachment ScoreRelief-Dan.mp3


Dude.. Dude.. You can't just go making the rest of us look bad like that 😂

Seriously though that was phenomenal 👏


----------



## shawnsingh

Dan said:


> For me Infinite isn't really playing and capturing a performance as much as meticulously shaping a performance down to the tiniest detail, and conventional libraries with keyswitches can't offer that right now in my opinion.


Yes! Well said!


----------



## shawnsingh

Actually I think "playability" is a very tricky thing in libraries. When something responds immediately and satisfies our desire for a tight feedback loop between playing and hearing, it's too easy to mistake that for "realism". I'm not saying this happens all the time, but it's often enough that I've stopped trying to judge the realism and expressiveness of something while playing it live, instead it's better to record and tweak the midi to the extent you think is fair and then listen to it compared with references.


----------



## FireGS

Update for everyone in regards to Infinite Brass 1.6 update, straight from AV, with permission to post. Current changelog for 1.6:

Global​∞ Playable vibrato improvements

∞ Improved release handling on longer notes

∞ Attack Accuracy renamed to Pitch Accuracy and now affects sustained pitch drift as well ("It will affect pitch drift mildly. It won't be crazily out of tune. All within musical limits.")

∞ Humanize not enabled by default anymore

Horns​∞ Fixed playable vibrato engagement (oops)

Trumpets​∞ Lower octave attack improvements

∞ Lower octave _pp-mp_ tone improvements

∞ Studio, Bersa and Mozarteum mics remixed (more clarity and less mud)

Trombones​∞ Tone improvements

∞ Mozarteum mics remixed (again)

∞ Mozarteum Close mic stereo width change from 1.5 reverted


----------



## DANIELE

FireGS said:


> Update for everyone in regards to Infinite Brass 1.6 update, straight from AV, with permission to post. Current changelog for 1.6:
> 
> Global​∞ Playable vibrato improvements
> 
> ∞ Improved release handling on longer notes
> 
> ∞ Attack Accuracy renamed to Pitch Accuracy and now affects sustained pitch drift as well ("It will affect pitch drift mildly. It won't be crazily out of tune. All within musical limits.")
> 
> ∞ Humanize not enabled by default anymore
> 
> Horns​∞ Fixed playable vibrato engagement (oops)
> 
> Trumpets​∞ Lower octave attack improvements
> 
> ∞ Lower octave _pp-mp_ tone improvements
> 
> ∞ Studio, Bersa and Mozarteum mics remixed (more clarity and less mud)
> 
> Trombones​∞ Tone improvements
> 
> ∞ Mozarteum mics remixed (again)
> 
> ∞ Mozarteum Close mic stereo width change from 1.5 reverted


Great, another update is coming, and what he said about IS?


----------



## FireGS

DANIELE said:


> Great, another update is coming, and what he said about IS?


"Slow and steady wins the race "


----------



## Trash Panda

DANIELE said:


> Great, another update is coming, and what he said about IS?


+1 month


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> +1 month


No because I asked FireGS about the time and not Aaron himself.


----------



## Trash Panda

DANIELE said:


> No because I asked FireGS about the time and not Aaron himself.


That’s what Aaron told him for asking.


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> That’s what Aaron told him for asking.


I thought it was only valid when he answers in public.


----------



## I like music

FireGS said:


> Update for everyone in regards to Infinite Brass 1.6 update, straight from AV, with permission to post. Current changelog for 1.6:
> 
> Global​∞ Playable vibrato improvements
> 
> ∞ Improved release handling on longer notes
> 
> ∞ Attack Accuracy renamed to Pitch Accuracy and now affects sustained pitch drift as well ("It will affect pitch drift mildly. It won't be crazily out of tune. All within musical limits.")
> 
> ∞ Humanize not enabled by default anymore
> 
> Horns​∞ Fixed playable vibrato engagement (oops)
> 
> Trumpets​∞ Lower octave attack improvements
> 
> ∞ Lower octave _pp-mp_ tone improvements
> 
> ∞ Studio, Bersa and Mozarteum mics remixed (more clarity and less mud)
> 
> Trombones​∞ Tone improvements
> 
> ∞ Mozarteum mics remixed (again)
> 
> ∞ Mozarteum Close mic stereo width change from 1.5 reverted


At this point I feel guilty for getting these updates for free.


----------



## vicontrolu

FireGS said:


> Update for everyone in regards to Infinite Brass 1.6 update, straight from AV, with permission to post. Current changelog for 1.6:
> 
> Global​∞ Playable vibrato improvements
> 
> ∞ Improved release handling on longer notes
> 
> ∞ Attack Accuracy renamed to Pitch Accuracy and now affects sustained pitch drift as well ("It will affect pitch drift mildly. It won't be crazily out of tune. All within musical limits.")
> 
> ∞ Humanize not enabled by default anymore
> 
> Horns​∞ Fixed playable vibrato engagement (oops)
> 
> Trumpets​∞ Lower octave attack improvements
> 
> ∞ Lower octave _pp-mp_ tone improvements
> 
> ∞ Studio, Bersa and Mozarteum mics remixed (more clarity and less mud)
> 
> Trombones​∞ Tone improvements
> 
> ∞ Mozarteum mics remixed (again)
> 
> ∞ Mozarteum Close mic stereo width change from 1.5 reverted


Wonderful! Eager to check the new bones tone!


----------



## FireGS

Bone tone, and Trumpet tone is what I'm most looking forward to seeing/hearing.

One thing I recommend, wherever this goes live, save a copy of 1.5 in the event there's anything you don't like. Not saying there will, but considering how much the tone changed from 1.0 to 1.4, and 1.5, it may be worth having backup copies.


----------



## DANIELE

FireGS said:


> Bone tone, and Trumpet tone is what I'm most looking forward to seeing/hearing.
> 
> One thing I recommend, wherever this goes live, save a copy of 1.5 in the event there's anything you don't like. Not saying there will, but considering how much the tone changed from 1.0 to 1.4, and 1.5, it may be worth having backup copies.


I always backup the library before updating. It could also be useful just in case of something went wrong during the update process.


----------



## Luka

Does anyone know around when can we expect Infinite Strings?


----------



## DANIELE

Luka said:


> Does anyone know around when can we expect Infinite Strings?


March 32th


----------



## FireGS

Luka said:


> Does anyone know around when can we expect Infinite Strings?


From what I can gather, it may be a bit yet.


----------



## doctoremmet

Luka said:


> Does anyone know around when can we expect Infinite Strings?


No


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Luka said:


> Does anyone know around when can we expect Infinite Strings?


2021 according to the website.

For a more specific estimate: "Infinite Strings are currently in development. Current estimate is Q1 2021. This may change during development". Sadly, I think there's a very likely chance that it won't be out by Q1 but that's the most specific estimate we've got.


----------



## FireGS

I have a quote from Aaron, that I dont want to post verbatim, but as I said, I dont think Q1 is likely.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> I have a quote from Aaron, that I dont want to post verbatim, but as I said, I dont think Q1 is likely.


That's fine. I'm just relaying the latest official and public information available.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Something I hope is that Aaron decided to record each string chromatically so that you can play e.g. a high G on both the E string and the A string. What string something is played on has a big influence on the sound, just as much as having the cellos play a higher line instead of the Violas or even Violins. That would be something unique that not a lot of libraries have.

Getting away from keyswitches is a blessing but having them for very specific things is still fine if you ask me, otherwise I see no manageable way to actually have more options without multiple instances -- even something like switching between pizz, col, etc. So I would opt to have something like momentary keyswitches to force a certain string. This means I would be able to play the phrase I want and then when going back and refining the programming I can add a couple of easy Keyswitches to override fingering and position if the code and I disagree.

Also maybe have the programming determine if you play a port or gliss it will automatically favour the same string if possible or if playing something fast it will play the closest possible fingering to not have big jumps.

Still, the library will probably be great and this is just wishful thinking.


----------



## DANIELE

FireGS said:


> I have a quote from Aaron, that I dont want to post verbatim, but as I said, I dont think Q1 is likely.


So, how many +1 Month has he accumulated?


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> So, how many +1 Month has he accumulated?


Enough to put this into CSW waiting territory


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> Something I hope is that Aaron decided to record each string chromatically so that you can play e.g. a high G on both the E string and the A string. What string something is played on has a big influence on the sound, just as much as having the cellos play a higher line instead of the Violas or even Violins. That would be something unique that not a lot of libraries have.
> 
> Getting away from keyswitches is a blessing but having them for very specific things is still fine if you ask me, otherwise I see no manageable way to actually have more options without multiple instances -- even something like switching between pizz, col, etc. So I would opt to have something like momentary keyswitches to force a certain string. This means I would be able to play the phrase I want and then when going back and refining the programming I can add a couple of easy Keyswitches to override fingering and position if the code and I disagree.
> 
> Also maybe have the programming determine if you play a port or gliss it will automatically favour the same string if possible or if playing something fast it will play the closest possible fingering to not have big jumps.
> 
> Still, the library will probably be great and this is just wishful thinking.


As long as there is an option to disable keyswitches, or that they're consistent across all instruments. For me personally I prefer CC switching over keyswitching, as keys are for notes and pedals are for articulations. I cannot tell you how many times on Embertone solo strings I've accidentally activated some random keyswitch and had to go through the plugin to figure out what does what again to get it back to normal 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> As long as there is an option to disable keyswitches, or that they're consistent across all instruments. For me personally I prefer CC switching over keyswitching, as keys are for notes and pedals are for articulations. I cannot tell you how many times on Embertone solo strings I've accidentally activated some random keyswitch and had to go through the plugin to figure out what does what again to get it back to normal 🤦‍♂️


Momentary keyswitches mean that they are only active for the duration they are pressed which seems the most logical for something like forcing a certain string. For switching between articulations, mutes, and so on, I don't care either way if its keyswitches or CC. CC work better since most daws chase the events unless you use something like expression maps then it usually chases both notes and other events.

The more options to customize for a specific workflow, the better.


----------



## DANIELE

So here we are guys, Q1 is definitely gone, at least we know the price.

Let's hope that 2021 doesn't change into 2022.



It must be very monumental, the strings are another beast than the brass or the woods.


----------



## ansthenia

DANIELE said:


> So here we are guys, Q1 is definitely gone


? He has confirmed it won't be out Q1? We still have until the end of March yet.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> at least we know the price


We do?


----------



## Iosonopie

doctoremmet said:


> We do?


"Infinite Strings are currently in development. The price will be $399, and owners of Infinite Brass and/or Infinite Woodwinds will be able to crossgrade for $299." from FAQ


----------



## DANIELE

ansthenia said:


> ? He has confirmed it won't be out Q1? We still have until the end of March yet.





doctoremmet said:


> We do?



Iosonopie already answered the question.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Sadly, kind of what I excepted. I thought the FAQ would be updated if we kept bringing it up and if Aaron saw that he wouldn't make the Q1 release. Hope it's not delayed by an outrageous amount, like 2022, but if that what it takes for perfection, then so be it. SO it's totally fine, sad, but still definitely fine... yes, fine...

My true feelings about the changed release when my family asks:


----------



## Jonathan Moray

That pricing is amazing though. It's much less than I excepted.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> That pricing is amazing though. It's much less than I excepted.


Yeah same for me, great price, especially for the owners of the winds or the brass.

However, do not despair, maybe it will be out on April 1st...oh wait...


----------



## I like music




----------



## I like music

Found a really nice mockup of Alan Silvestri's "Contact" titles here. Only using IB and IW (+ Afflatus Strings ... boy do they sound _good_). But whoever this chap is, he knows how to do a mockup. I think the libraries shine here (and I don't think this is the woods 2.0 but you can just hear the expression). Also that horn solo, I don't think they get much better than that in VI world?

Anyone know who this mockup artist is?


----------



## Dan

I like music said:


> Found a really nice mockup of Alan Silvestri's "Contact" titles here. Only using IB and IW (+ Afflatus Strings ... boy do they sound _good_). But whoever this chap is, he knows how to do a mockup. I think the libraries shine here (and I don't think this is the woods 2.0 but you can just hear the expression). Also that horn solo, I don't think they get much better than that in VI world?
> 
> Anyone know who this mockup artist is?



Wow, this is incredible!


----------



## Arviwan

Dan said:


> I wanted to share the music to my entry in the ScoreRelief Competition. All the woodwinds and brass are from Infinite, the rest is Spitfire Chamber Strings, CSS for some legatos, BBCSO Core for Percussion, Ravenscroft for Piano and Sample Modeling for the solo cello part. I wrote this specifically for the 27-piece orchestra that was specified in the competition, so there are only 2 horns, and one each of trumpet, trombone, flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon. I tried to really use the flexibility of the Infinite libraries to my advantage, and it was just a joy to work with them. I especially loved the range I could get from the horns. My mixing is probably not the best though...
> 
> View attachment ScoreRelief-Dan.mp3


Hello Dan, could you put a link to your video entry ?
I really loved your piece !!!
Thanks


----------



## ManOn1st

The delay is better for my wallet...SWAM Strings V3 is supposed to also drop in March. I was wondering how I could sneak a purchase of both past my wife at the same time  

The modeled string competition is intensifying! Exciting for us all!


----------



## I like music

ManOn1st said:


> The delay is better for my wallet...SWAM Strings V3 is supposed to also drop in March. I was wondering how I could sneak a purchase of both past my wife at the same time
> 
> The modeled string competition is intensifying! Exciting for us all!


SM say they are making some big improvements to their strings.
SWAM coming out with v3.
Aaron, as of yet the unknown quantity (but of known quality) with the strings.

It is a good time to be alive (as long as you don't have a wife)


----------



## DANIELE

ManOn1st said:


> The delay is better for my wallet...SWAM Strings V3 is supposed to also drop in March. I was wondering how I could sneak a purchase of both past my wife at the same time
> 
> The modeled string competition is intensifying! Exciting for us all!


True but SWAM Strings V3 are only solos so I must say better for the wallet but worst for the heart.

As I said in the past I prefer to receive a well refined library that a buggy one so let's wait with patience. Yeah I can wait until tomorrow, no problem!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> SM say they are making some big improvements to their strings.
> SWAM coming out with v3.
> Aaron, as of yet the unknown quantity (but of known quality) with the strings.
> 
> It is a good time to be alive (as long as you don't have a wife)


My wife is my muse and my inspiration!


----------



## soulofsound

I like music said:


> Found a really nice mockup of Alan Silvestri's "Contact" titles here. Only using IB and IW (+ Afflatus Strings ... boy do they sound _good_). But whoever this chap is, he knows how to do a mockup. I think the libraries shine here (and I don't think this is the woods 2.0 but you can just hear the expression). Also that horn solo, I don't think they get much better than that in VI world?
> 
> Anyone know who this mockup artist is?



The brass sounds really impressive, i think. Woodwinds less so. I fear brass might be easier to do than winds and strings, but i hope i'm wrong.


----------



## Markrs

DANIELE said:


> True but SWAM Strings V3 are only solos so I must say better for the wallet but worst for the heart.
> 
> As I said in the past I prefer to receive a well refined library that a buggy one so let's wait with patience. Yeah I can wait until tomorrow, no problem!


They can sound amazing. The video was done by a SWAM beta tester to show off the Piccolo Trumpet, but it is the strings that blow you away. The 13 string instruments sound incredibly real.




Here is the thread (further into the thread it is explained how he got such a great sound from the strings, using just imported midi, not playing it in):






Audio Modeling Solo Brass "Piccolo Trumpet" test


hello to all friends of VI Control I post this video with a demo made with SWAM Solo Brass "Little Trumpet" ALPHA release. With the exception of the trumpet, on which I used an EQ to imitate the sound of the talented Alison Balsom as much as possible, everything else comes out flat from...




vi-control.net


----------



## Markrs

My problem is I want both the Infinite Series by Aaron and the SWAM instruments, though will be very excited to see how the ensembles turn out.


----------



## ManOn1st

While we wait, has anyone made any big band or other types of Jazz mockups using Infinite? Something along the lines of Ellington or Basie? Many of the woodwinds and brass libraries I hear sound a bit "tame", so I wonder how it would fair really pushing the envelope. I love how Infinite has the "growl" and "mutes" feature. But I'd love to hear some of the experts on this board try to use it to model like a Louie Armstrong or Miles Davis trumpet, or a John Coltrane sax. I'm fairly new to this so don't want to waste a lot of energy if this is stuff that even the experts on this board can't do with these libraries. Has anyone tried or can share anything? This is my aspiration - if I can get good enough. (and sorry if there was an example somewhere that I missed, the thread is getting fairly long to read through).


----------



## Dan

Arviwan said:


> Hello Dan, could you put a link to your video entry ?
> I really loved your piece !!!
> Thanks


I'm glad you liked it!
Here is the video:


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> Anyone know who this mockup artist is?


That's a pretty cool demo, I remember Jan sending it to me soon after posting it!



soulofsound said:


> The brass sounds really impressive, i think. Woodwinds less so.


These are Woods 1.1, note the date.  



Jonathan Moray said:


> Q1


Q1 was never a confirmed window, just a pretty rough estimate made before development even started. It was very optimistic 😂



Jonathan Moray said:


> Something I hope is that Aaron decided to record each string chromatically so that you can play e.g. a high G on both the E string and the A string. What string something is played on has a big influence on the sound, just as much as having the cellos play a higher line instead of the Violas or even Violins. That would be something unique that not a lot of libraries have.


It's something I definitely took into consideration, but have decided to leave out. At least in v1.0. It complicates the overall execution and massively complicates the overall maintenance, I'll happily consider it again once all the kinks are ironed out.

How many people would even use that?

My feelings about that feature right now are if it's gonna have a significant impact, it would be in first chairs. So if it does ever appear, that's the first place it'll be.


----------



## Woodie1972

It's not my intention to insult someone, but personally I think this kind of detailed tweaking, like which string is used for a specific tone, is only interesting for the one composing the piece, or creating the mock-up. I don't think anyone else will listen and think: "that note would 've sounded much better if there was used another string".

My mock-ups aren't the best out there, so there's room for improvement, but listeners don't care how you did it, they just want it to sound good and convincing as much as possible. They don't care for all these kind of details, it's not interesting for them.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@aaronventure, nice to see that you have time to get out of your dungeon once in a while.

Yeah, the Q1 seemed to be a very rough estimate and most of us seemed to expect it to be delayed. I think it saddens us all that that won't be happening but I also think we can all agree that we want a proper release, not a buggy mess. Something that can get the Aaron QA seal of approval.

I'm just unreasonable excited to be able to finish the "main" part of the orchestra -- which is something I rarely am. (Percussion is not as pressing for me) I don't even think my current setup will run a full orchestra, or even just the full 60p strings, at the moment.

I might bug you about some of your computer specs later when IS has been released and I'm getting more serious about an upgrade. If I remember correctly you used one of the newer AMD processors but not sure if it's just the new ZEN or EPIC. So it would be great to see what performance you get with your setup running the full Infinite Series.

Honestly, I find it harder to use other libraries nowadays and find myself trying to write more woodwind and brass focused stuff now because I'm much more productive and less restricted with the Infinite Series. Even if they get layered or even replaced in the end, these tools have liberated and removed the boundary that is the technology between me and the music. I'm extremely grateful for that.



aaronventure said:


> It's something I definitely took into consideration, but have decided to leave out. At least in v1.0. It complicates the overall execution and massively complicates the overall maintenance, I'll happily consider it again once all the kinks are ironed out.
> 
> How many people would even use that?
> 
> My feelings about that feature right now are if it's gonna have a significant impact, it would be in first chairs. So if it does ever appear, that's the first place it'll be.


That's definitely a real question you should ask.

I don't know if you asked the musicians to play a chromatic scale in the way they would most naturally play it or if you've already recorded all the possible notes on all the possible strings. If you don't already have the recordings that would mean you would have to get the same musician with the same instrument with the same mic setup to come and record the missing notes, only that is quite a bit of work and that's before we get to the extra time it would take to phase align all the samples and program them into the engine.

If you already have the samples it's at least something you could play around with and see if you can get some good results - first chairs sounds like a good place to start.

Personally, I really like the idea (maybe I'm biased because I proposed it) and I think I would use it from time to time when I knew exactly what sound I'm after.

Even if I like the idea I agree that keeping 1.0 to the "basics" and not adding extra features right now is a good idea, just something to maybe keep in mind for the future.


----------



## tabulius

I'm sad to tell that although I like the Infinite Brass & Woodwinds, currently they are totally unusable for me. Anyone else having an issue with high CPU, crackling and stuck notes? On my 4-core 6700K, Studio One, and RME UC soundcard with a buffer of 256 I can't use the full Infinite orchestra (or even half of it) in my template. My computer just cannot handle the CPU spikes, even when using the mixed mics.

What system specs do you have for a full orchestra setup? Anyone else using the 6700K without problems? I don't know if there are any quick fixes for my problem, system cleaning, drivers optimization etc. It sucks when I've written a part for a full brass section and in playback all I hear is crackles. When using 6 horns, 3 trombones, 4 trumpets, 1 bass trombone, tuba, flute and clarinet at the same time, my CPU hits 90-100%.


----------



## Saxer

I'm a Logic user and the active channel (recording armed) uses more CPU for realtime playing. A lot of Kontakt instruments hit the CPU hard or even clip it (like Spitfire SCS performance legatos) but never any of the Infinite Instruments. Not even stacked. For playback it's below most Kontakt patches. They belong to the CPU easiest legato instruments on my system.


----------



## Woodie1972

That's not funny, when the hardware gives you this trouble.
I have another processor (i7 4790), but do use VE pro to host all my instruments. This takes a lot of stress of the system, even when you do it like me without a slave setup with VE pro on the same pc as the DAW and samples. Samples are on a different SSD bytheway, that helps too.


----------



## doctoremmet

tabulius said:


> Anyone else using the 6700K without problems


I have an i5 6600K, 32 Gb RAM desktop and an i7 6700HQ, 24 Gb RAM laptop. Both Infinite libraries run very well on those specs, using an ancient Presonus AudioBox USB interface, set to 44.100 / 512. No latency whatsoever, nor any crackles / pops.


----------



## tabulius

Ok thanks for the info. So it seems, my processor should handle these without issues. I'll run some tests in Cubase as well, if this is a Studio One thing. And try to find a way to optimize my system.


----------



## lljfnord

tabulius said:


> Ok thanks for the info. So it seems, my processor should handle these without issues. I'll run some tests in Cubase as well, if this is a Studio One thing. And try to find a way to optimize my system.


If you do need to optimize your system, a good place to start is the Cakewalk Windows Optimization Guide. It'll walk you through the steps you should consider trying, all the way up to and including BIOS/UEFI optimization. Here's the link:






Cakewalk - Knowledge Base - Windows Optimization Guide


Cakewalk - Knowledge Base - Windows Optimization Guide




www.cakewalk.com


----------



## zimm83

One question please : I don't understand : are those libs not velocity sensitive ? Must we use the modwheel for the dynamics ? Can't use finger dynamics ? Thanks.


----------



## Saxer

zimm83 said:


> One question please : I don't understand : are those libs not velocity sensitive ? Must we use the modwheel for the dynamics ? Can't use finger dynamics ? Thanks.


You need both. Velocity to control the attacks and mod wheel for the sustained part.


----------



## zimm83

Saxer said:


> You need both. Velocity to control the attacks and mod wheel for the sustained part.


ok thanks.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

tabulius said:


> I'm sad to tell that although I like the Infinite Brass & Woodwinds, currently they are totally unusable for me. Anyone else having an issue with high CPU, crackling and stuck notes? On my 4-core 6700K, Studio One, and RME UC soundcard with a buffer of 256 I can't use the full Infinite orchestra (or even half of it) in my template. My computer just cannot handle the CPU spikes, even when using the mixed mics.
> 
> What system specs do you have for a full orchestra setup? Anyone else using the 6700K without problems? I don't know if there are any quick fixes for my problem, system cleaning, drivers optimization etc. It sucks when I've written a part for a full brass section and in playback all I hear is crackles. When using 6 horns, 3 trombones, 4 trumpets, 1 bass trombone, tuba, flute and clarinet at the same time, my CPU hits 90-100%.


Contact Aaron.
I was having bad crackling on an 8700k in Reaper and Aaron gave me some advice to help and I've not experienced it since.
There was a setting in reaper that I hadn't set. Perhaps there's something similar in Studio One.


----------



## b_elliott

ManOn1st said:


> While we wait, has anyone made any big band or other types of Jazz mockups using Infinite? Something along the lines of Ellington or Basie? Many of the woodwinds and brass ....


@ChrisSiuMusic would be the man to answer as he does score for big band amongst other genres. 

He mentionef in a YT video having the AV series as well as OTs Glory Days. 

I too am curious about Chris' evaluation as I would take the jump for the Infinite Series if I knew it could handle something like The Atomic Mr Basie (1958) or how Zappa uses horns/WW.


----------



## Supremo

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Contact Aaron.
> I was having bad crackling on an 8700k in Reaper and Aaron gave me some advice to help and I've not experienced it since.
> There was a setting in reaper that I hadn't set. Perhaps there's something similar in Studio One.


Mind to elaborate what setting that is? I’m on Reaper too and I do experience crackles at times. Thanks!


----------



## MrHassanSan

There is a setting in Studio One that may help: Dropout Protection. Try setting it to High and see if that improves the issue.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

b_elliott said:


> @ChrisSiuMusic would be the man to answer as he does score for big band amongst other genres.
> 
> He mentionef in a YT video having the AV series as well as OTs Glory Days.
> 
> I too am curious about Chris' evaluation as I would take the jump for the Infinite Series if I knew it could handle something like The Atomic Mr Basie (1958) or how Zappa uses horns/WW.


I actually don't own the AV stuff! For big band I've used Glory Days and Screaming Trumpet from Realitone. Occasionally I'll also spice it up with Swing/Swing More.  

Here's an example:


----------



## shawnsingh

b_elliott said:


> @ChrisSiuMusic would be the man to answer as he does score for big band amongst other genres.
> 
> He mentionef in a YT video having the AV series as well as OTs Glory Days.
> 
> I too am curious about Chris' evaluation as I would take the jump for the Infinite Series if I knew it could handle something like The Atomic Mr Basie (1958) or how Zappa uses horns/WW.


 +1 Chris what do you think.

I've never actually tried any big band stuff in virtual instruments, but I think one notable missing sound is tongue-stopped releases. Even for orchestral stuff, tongue-stopped release has a certain sound that works better for double tonguing really fast notes - but with concert-hall type reverb, it matters less. But for big band sound, the re-tongue and tongue stopped seem more common I think would be a nice request to add to Infinite series.


----------



## shawnsingh

Ah, Chris you already replied =)


----------



## ManOn1st

Wow Chris, great job. I'm going to try to push the limits with this AV stuff to see what I can do. But I imagine there are some special articulations that would be needed to get a really authentic sound. What drum kit did you use?


----------



## DANIELE

tabulius said:


> I'm sad to tell that although I like the Infinite Brass & Woodwinds, currently they are totally unusable for me. Anyone else having an issue with high CPU, crackling and stuck notes? On my 4-core 6700K, Studio One, and RME UC soundcard with a buffer of 256 I can't use the full Infinite orchestra (or even half of it) in my template. My computer just cannot handle the CPU spikes, even when using the mixed mics.
> 
> What system specs do you have for a full orchestra setup? Anyone else using the 6700K without problems? I don't know if there are any quick fixes for my problem, system cleaning, drivers optimization etc. It sucks when I've written a part for a full brass section and in playback all I hear is crackles. When using 6 horns, 3 trombones, 4 trumpets, 1 bass trombone, tuba, flute and clarinet at the same time, my CPU hits 90-100%.


My setup is a little bit powerful than yours but it is very strange you have that behavior. I think that for your setup you should raise the buffer size from 256 to 512 anyway, with my previous CPU (7820X) I had to. Try that and see if it gets better.

I quote other users by saying that it should be some settings to check to optimize the experience. Reaper has a lot of settings to touch.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

ManOn1st said:


> Wow Chris, great job. I'm going to try to push the limits with this AV stuff to see what I can do. But I imagine there are some special articulations that would be needed to get a really authentic sound. What drum kit did you use?


Thank you so much! Stopped accents, rips, falls, and shakes are my favourites :D


----------



## Ethan Toavs

ManOn1st said:


> While we wait, has anyone made any big band or other types of Jazz mockups using Infinite? Something along the lines of Ellington or Basie? Many of the woodwinds and brass libraries I hear sound a bit "tame", so I wonder how it would fair really pushing the envelope. I love how Infinite has the "growl" and "mutes" feature. But I'd love to hear some of the experts on this board try to use it to model like a Louie Armstrong or Miles Davis trumpet, or a John Coltrane sax. I'm fairly new to this so don't want to waste a lot of energy if this is stuff that even the experts on this board can't do with these libraries. Has anyone tried or can share anything? This is my aspiration - if I can get good enough. (and sorry if there was an example somewhere that I missed, the thread is getting fairly long to read through).


I did actually recently compose this piece for jazz band. It is not quite a traditional jazz piece in the styles of the composers that you mentioned, but hopefully it might answer the questions you had about how these libraries sound in such an application. 3:40 to the end is where most of the brass action happens.


----------



## shawnsingh

aaronventure said:


> It's something I definitely took into consideration, but have decided to leave out. At least in v1.0. It complicates the overall execution and massively complicates the overall maintenance, I'll happily consider it again once all the kinks are ironed out.
> 
> How many people would even use that?
> 
> My feelings about that feature right now are if it's gonna have a significant impact, it would be in first chairs. So if it does ever appear, that's the first place it'll be.



This is too bad =) I would have loved to use it, for example in the form of generic options like "favor sul G", "favor sul A", and "favor lowest hand position", and "favor lowest hand position with open strings". On the other hand, in other libraries I found I could get a similar effect with EQ automation to reduce the brightness of E string... this would probably only work for ensembles, not solo players.

Per-string was also an underpinning to my wishful idea of having three different types of note transitions for strings - string change that requires bow arm movement, hand-position change that may incur some sliding sounds, and fingered changes that sound clean and crisp, and all three can happen to varying degrees at the same time, and they'd all be tied together by fingering scripting logic.

Still, it's completely understandable if it's an execution/maintenance nightmare. These ideas - the fingering simulation, note transitions, and another idea I've mentioned earlier about sampling 3-d directivity of instrument and venue - if in the future you have time and if are interested to evaluate these ideas further, I would be very happy to elaborate in far more detail how I imagine they could work.

Cheers and thank you for Infinite everything!


----------



## Ethan Toavs

shawnsingh said:


> This is too bad =) I would have loved to use it, for example in the form of generic options like "favor sul G", "favor sul A", and "favor lowest hand position", and "favor lowest hand position with open strings". On the other hand, in other libraries I found I could get a similar effect with EQ automation to reduce the brightness of E string... this would probably only work for ensembles, not solo players.
> 
> Per-string was also an underpinning to my wishful idea of having three different types of note transitions for strings - string change that requires bow arm movement, hand-position change that may incur some sliding sounds, and fingered changes that sound clean and crisp, and all three can happen to varying degrees at the same time, and they'd all be tied together by fingering scripting logic.
> 
> Still, it's completely understandable if it's an execution/maintenance nightmare. These ideas - the fingering simulation, note transitions, and another idea I've mentioned earlier about sampling 3-d directivity of instrument and venue - if in the future you have time and if are interested to evaluate these ideas further, I would be very happy to elaborate in far more detail how I imagine they could work.
> 
> Cheers and thank you for Infinite everything!


I am curious - what, exactly, would be the use of such a feature? Would anyone aside from you even notice that in the final mockup?


----------



## servandus

Ethan Toavs said:


> I am curious - what, exactly, would be the use of such a feature? Would anyone aside from you even notice that in the final mockup?


Sure, anyone who knows how real string instruments work. Like @shawnsingh, I'm still waiting for a string library that can handle the very basics of string technique properly.

Legato transitions in string instruments can be produced in a number of ways, and they all sound completely different. Main factors are:

1) what the left hand does:

finger attack, no position change (produces a clean, fast transition; if close mics are used with solo strings, or you're close enough to a real player, you can even hear the finger attacks)
position change, full one finger slide to the target note (no finger attack). Depending on the musical context, you can slide as quickly as possible for a normal transition (what most libraries call "legato"), in a little slower, more expressive way (portamento), or clearly emphasizing a wider slide (glissando)
position change, partial initial finger slide plus final finger attack. Similar to the previous one, but the slide is not performed up to the target note, but only to the extent where you can reach the target note with other finger. So, there're in fact two parts to this legato transition (partial slide, then attack). Even if this is the regular, most common position change technique, the transition is apparently tricky to model for library developers due to the misconception that legato is always the connection between 2 actual notes. In string playing it is not. Only in the previous case it's like that.
2) what the right hand does:

same bow direction, same string.
same bow direction, string crossing.
bow change (with or without string crossing)
String players spend their whole lives trying to master their bowing technique, so that they can play a detaché from almost no attack (as if there was no bow change) to the most aggresive accents, and everything in between.

The crucial point here is that these left and right hand techniques are completely independent from each other, so you really have at least 3x3 completely different transtions to model. There's no library which can even approximate this. Currently, most libraries offer just "legato/portamento" (which means a neverending slide up and down the strings) or "bow legato" articulations (which usually means just a non or lightly accented detaché transition), with no or little control over the different aspects involved. Even the most fundamental and basic detaché stroke is missing in most libraries, which is why some of us are desperately waiting for a library with which you can write just music for strings, not for a particular sample library.

In fact, there are many other aspects affecting those legato transitions, being maybe bow speed one of the most important ones, because it lets you articulate different notes within the same bow direction (which is the basis of louré). And that's without even talking about how the bow gets in contact with the strings in every non legato bowing, because, even if these are discrete bowing movements, they can leave the string resonating, so there's actually kind of a "legato" transition involved between notes (that's why all those release samples which can sometimes sound like double attacks in Jasper Blunk's libraries, for example).

AM did this right, because, even if in a basic way, you can simulate on- (staccato) and off-the-string (spiccato) bowings, and also mimic on- and off-the-string releases for staccato or bow landings. I wish Aaron could include a "vertical-horizontal" controller for the spiccato, so that you can play everything from a brush to a tapped spiccato (even ideally a jeté) and a collé controller to model the bite in the staccato, from wild to nimble.

I can imagine why strings are a true nightmare for developers to capture/model... but right now, if someone is able to do it, I think that's Aaron.

Let's see what IS brings to the table. It's actually fantastic that some of these things are being discussed in this thread in a constructive way, so thanks @shawnsingh for that.


----------



## Woodie1972

I agree with the comment of Ethan Toavs, as I wrote something simular in a comment about requests like this. 
It's not that I don't understand your request as indeed string players can play with a lot of details to get the sound they want and that for some people it is interesting to have the option in a library to control that. But as I said in my comment: nobody is going to listen to it that way. Maybe only a few diehard mock-up creators, but the average listeners will only listen if it sounds convincing enough, not if the note should have had slightly more left hand finger attack, or one of the other really specific requests you make. And still then, imagine all the hours of extra work you have to put into it to tweak such details which next to no person will notice. 

Even Aaron Venture asked this question in reply to a request like yours, if there would be people out there who would use such in-depth tweaking options.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

servandus said:


> Sure, anyone who knows how real string instruments work. Like @shawnsingh, I'm still waiting for a string library that can handle the very basics of string technique properly.
> 
> Legato transitions in string instruments can be produced in a number of ways, and they all sound completely different. Main factors are:
> 
> 1) what the left hand does:
> 
> finger attack, no position change (produces a clean, fast transition; if close mics are used with solo strings, or you're close enough to a real player, you can even hear the finger attacks)
> position change, full one finger slide to the target note (no finger attack). Depending on the musical context, you can slide as quickly as possible for a normal transition (what most libraries call "legato"), in a little slower, more expressive way (portamento), or clearly emphasizing a wider slide (glissando)
> position change, partial initial finger slide plus final finger attack. Similar to the previous one, but the slide is not performed up to the target note, but only to the extent where you can reach the target note with other finger. So, there're in fact two parts to this legato transition (partial slide, then attack). Even if this is the regular, most common position change technique, the transition is apparently tricky to model for library developers due to the misconception that legato is always the connection between 2 actual notes. In string playing it is not. Only in the previous case it's like that.
> 2) what the right hand does:
> 
> same bow direction, same string.
> same bow direction, string crossing.
> bow change (with or without string crossing)
> String players spend their whole lives trying to master their bowing technique, so that they can play a detaché from almost no attack (as if there was no bow change) to the most aggresive accents, and everything in between.
> 
> The crucial point here is that these left and right hand techniques are completely independent from each other, so you really have at least 3x3 completely different transtions to model. There's no library which can even approximate this. Currently, most libraries offer just "legato/portamento" (which means a neverending slide up and down the strings) or "bow legato" articulations (which usually means just a non or lightly accented detaché transition), with no or little control over the different aspects involved. Even the most fundamental and basic detaché stroke is missing in most libraries, which is why some of us are desperately waiting for a library with which you can write just music for strings, not for a particular sample library.
> 
> In fact, there are many other aspects affecting those legato transitions, being maybe bow speed one of the most important ones, because it lets you articulate different notes within the same bow direction (which is the basis of louré). And that's without even talking about how the bow gets in contact with the strings in every non legato bowing, because, even if these are discrete bowing movements, they can leave the string resonating, so there's actually kind of a "legato" transition involved between notes (that's why all those release samples which can sometimes sound like double attacks in Jasper Blunk's libraries, for example).
> 
> AM did this right, because, even if in a basic way, you can simulate on- (staccato) and off-the-string (spiccato) bowings, and also mimic on- and off-the-string releases for staccato or bow landings. I wish Aaron could include a "vertical-horizontal" controller for the spiccato, so that you can play everything from a brush to a tapped spiccato (even ideally a jeté) and a collé controller to model the bite in the staccato, from wild to nimble.
> 
> I can imagine why strings are a true nightmare for developers to capture/model... but right now, if someone is able to do it, I think that's Aaron.
> 
> Let's see what IS brings to the table. It's actually fantastic that some of these things are being discussed in this thread in a constructive way, so thanks @shawnsingh for that.


I am well aware of how string instruments work - I am an upright bass player myself. That being said, the average listener will not notice any of these, and I do not see any way that such a feature will improve the ease of use of this library.


----------



## Markrs

servandus said:


> Sure, anyone who knows how real string instruments work. Like @shawnsingh, I'm still waiting for a string library that can handle the very basics of string technique properly.
> 
> Legato transitions in string instruments can be produced in a number of ways, and they all sound completely different. Main factors are:
> 
> 1) what the left hand does:
> 
> finger attack, no position change (produces a clean, fast transition; if close mics are used with solo strings, or you're close enough to a real player, you can even hear the finger attacks)
> position change, full one finger slide to the target note (no finger attack). Depending on the musical context, you can slide as quickly as possible for a normal transition (what most libraries call "legato"), in a little slower, more expressive way (portamento), or clearly emphasizing a wider slide (glissando)
> position change, partial initial finger slide plus final finger attack. Similar to the previous one, but the slide is not performed up to the target note, but only to the extent where you can reach the target note with other finger. So, there're in fact two parts to this legato transition (partial slide, then attack). Even if this is the regular, most common position change technique, the transition is apparently tricky to model for library developers due to the misconception that legato is always the connection between 2 actual notes. In string playing it is not. Only in the previous case it's like that.
> 2) what the right hand does:
> 
> same bow direction, same string.
> same bow direction, string crossing.
> bow change (with or without string crossing)
> String players spend their whole lives trying to master their bowing technique, so that they can play a detaché from almost no attack (as if there was no bow change) to the most aggresive accents, and everything in between.
> 
> The crucial point here is that these left and right hand techniques are completely independent from each other, so you really have at least 3x3 completely different transtions to model. There's no library which can even approximate this. Currently, most libraries offer just "legato/portamento" (which means a neverending slide up and down the strings) or "bow legato" articulations (which usually means just a non or lightly accented detaché transition), with no or little control over the different aspects involved. Even the most fundamental and basic detaché stroke is missing in most libraries, which is why some of us are desperately waiting for a library with which you can write just music for strings, not for a particular sample library.
> 
> In fact, there are many other aspects affecting those legato transitions, being maybe bow speed one of the most important ones, because it lets you articulate different notes within the same bow direction (which is the basis of louré). And that's without even talking about how the bow gets in contact with the strings in every non legato bowing, because, even if these are discrete bowing movements, they can leave the string resonating, so there's actually kind of a "legato" transition involved between notes (that's why all those release samples which can sometimes sound like double attacks in Jasper Blunk's libraries, for example).
> 
> AM did this right, because, even if in a basic way, you can simulate on- (staccato) and off-the-string (spiccato) bowings, and also mimic on- and off-the-string releases for staccato or bow landings. I wish Aaron could include a "vertical-horizontal" controller for the spiccato, so that you can play everything from a brush to a tapped spiccato (even ideally a jeté) and a collé controller to model the bite in the staccato, from wild to nimble.
> 
> I can imagine why strings are a true nightmare for developers to capture/model... but right now, if someone is able to do it, I think that's Aaron.
> 
> Let's see what IS brings to the table. It's actually fantastic that some of these things are being discussed in this thread in a constructive way, so thanks @shawnsingh for that.


This actually very educational for me as I really didn't know there were so many ways to create legato. As to whether anyone would use it, hard to say. It would bring micro realism which can mount up to something sounding more real overall. On the negative side is complexity, such as with EastWest Hollywood Strings which are criticized for the number of variations, as it makes it harder to use.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

servandus said:


> Sure, anyone who knows how real string instruments work. Like @shawnsingh, I'm still waiting for a string library that can handle the very basics of string technique properly.
> 
> Legato transitions in string instruments can be produced in a number of ways, and they all sound completely different. Main factors are:
> 
> 1) what the left hand does:
> 
> finger attack, no position change (produces a clean, fast transition; if close mics are used with solo strings, or you're close enough to a real player, you can even hear the finger attacks)
> position change, full one finger slide to the target note (no finger attack). Depending on the musical context, you can slide as quickly as possible for a normal transition (what most libraries call "legato"), in a little slower, more expressive way (portamento), or clearly emphasizing a wider slide (glissando)
> position change, partial initial finger slide plus final finger attack. Similar to the previous one, but the slide is not performed up to the target note, but only to the extent where you can reach the target note with other finger. So, there're in fact two parts to this legato transition (partial slide, then attack). Even if this is the regular, most common position change technique, the transition is apparently tricky to model for library developers due to the misconception that legato is always the connection between 2 actual notes. In string playing it is not. Only in the previous case it's like that.
> 2) what the right hand does:
> 
> same bow direction, same string.
> same bow direction, string crossing.
> bow change (with or without string crossing)
> String players spend their whole lives trying to master their bowing technique, so that they can play a detaché from almost no attack (as if there was no bow change) to the most aggresive accents, and everything in between.
> 
> The crucial point here is that these left and right hand techniques are completely independent from each other, so you really have at least 3x3 completely different transtions to model. There's no library which can even approximate this. Currently, most libraries offer just "legato/portamento" (which means a neverending slide up and down the strings) or "bow legato" articulations (which usually means just a non or lightly accented detaché transition), with no or little control over the different aspects involved. Even the most fundamental and basic detaché stroke is missing in most libraries, which is why some of us are desperately waiting for a library with which you can write just music for strings, not for a particular sample library.
> 
> In fact, there are many other aspects affecting those legato transitions, being maybe bow speed one of the most important ones, because it lets you articulate different notes within the same bow direction (which is the basis of louré). And that's without even talking about how the bow gets in contact with the strings in every non legato bowing, because, even if these are discrete bowing movements, they can leave the string resonating, so there's actually kind of a "legato" transition involved between notes (that's why all those release samples which can sometimes sound like double attacks in Jasper Blunk's libraries, for example).
> 
> AM did this right, because, even if in a basic way, you can simulate on- (staccato) and off-the-string (spiccato) bowings, and also mimic on- and off-the-string releases for staccato or bow landings. I wish Aaron could include a "vertical-horizontal" controller for the spiccato, so that you can play everything from a brush to a tapped spiccato (even ideally a jeté) and a collé controller to model the bite in the staccato, from wild to nimble.
> 
> I can imagine why strings are a true nightmare for developers to capture/model... but right now, if someone is able to do it, I think that's Aaron.
> 
> Let's see what IS brings to the table. It's actually fantastic that some of these things are being discussed in this thread in a constructive way, so thanks @shawnsingh for that.


Sadly, I don't think Aaron is the right person for something like this nor the Infinite Series. The Infinite Series isn't actually modelled like AM where you can control every minuscule detail of the playing with e.g. bow-pressure, bow-position, bow-speed.

I hope there will be at least an IR for sul-tasto as I suspect there will be for sordinos, to mimic where you play on the strings. Although, I'm not sure if that would be possible for sul-ponticello since that is such a different sound with a lot of extra harmonics and what not. The ability to morph between normale and sul-tasto would be great but not sure how that would work (just a dry and wet knob for the IR? Would that even sound good?) without once again over complicating things and keeping everything lean for both the user and the CPU.

The legato transition on the other hand will most likely all be there. Those would be quite easy to fake in my mind.

The highest velocity would be bow-change with an accent. Or he might opt to just make it so when you leave the notes unconnected it would a fake bow-change legato.
Below that normal bow-change.
Below that heavy fingered.
Below that normal fingered.
Below that portamento and glissandos.
Then you would easily be able to combine those how every you want. Portamento into fingered legato, no problem. Portamento into accented bow-change, easy.

The problem would be with the right hand and having direct control over direction, speed, and pressure. Aaron is smart and might figure something out, but he also appreciates the simplicity of the Infinite Series and I think I remember him saying like a 100 pages ago that he doesn't want to add to many options and keep it simpler. Something that works for 95% or the cases. I'm paraphrasing, of course, and I could be remembering completely incorrectly.

I have no idea how the shorts would work with all those options. Looking at winds and brass I think we will just see different midi note lengths mimic the different length shorts. A really short one might be something akin to off-the-string sautillé or spiccato, longer gets into on-the-string arts/strokes like staccato and shorter marcatos - as is present in the other libraries - but complete control over on-the-string and off-the-string and be able to "mimic on- and off-the-string releases for staccato or bow landings" is something I doubt will possible with IS. One can always dream, of crouse.

The instruments in the string section are very nuanced and there's a lot you can do with the real instruments - _a lot_. Being realistic I doubt we will see most of those options and nuances in anything other than a completely modelled instrument and even then you would be quite limited.

But I would also reaffirm what others have said. How often would one use those more niche articulations and options? How noticeable would the difference be? Sure, we nerds would love to have the control and be able to change every single little thing about the performance and all the settings, but without them, we will still get something like 90-95% of the way there and I would say, and those 90% for us is like 98% for the average Joe listening.


----------



## shawnsingh

Ethan Toavs said:


> I am curious - what, exactly, would be the use of such a feature? Would anyone aside from you even notice that in the final mockup?



I do feel that a lot of features that virtual instruments are competing about these days are things that might not be noticed in final mockups. But we still value them because they can bring something - more realism, more expressiveness, more control over musicality, more efficient workflow.

So yeah, for this feature, it's not so much about being able to hear the exact differences in a final mockup. It's more about how these details can add up to more musicality and expressiveness than what is possible in a virtual instrument currently.

Take some examples of where these nuances would be quite essential for musicality:
- This Perlman performance of Schindler's List - various schmoozy portamento slides. Libraries that provide separate legato and portamento samples, there's often a very awkward timbre change just after a portamento, because the next note transition makes a bad assumption that the previous note was on a different string. There would be no way to create such well connected but precisely controlled schmooziness.
- Recently I mocked up Adagio for Strings with BSS, and the violins 1 part has some parts that should be performed sul A to avoid crossing back and forth between the A and E strings. But virtual instrument legato doesn't have this control, and there's no way to control it so this Adagio for Strings passage has glaring timbre change that really distracts and kills the immersion. I've encountered this very regularly and really wish more libraries could have optional sul-A legato transitions instead of switching to the E string.
- Often times a library has slight portamento/slurred sound (i.e. hand position slid along the neck of the instrument) on some intervals, instead of fingered legato. This can sound good out of context, but it's especially frustrating when musically it should be a fingered note transition sound, or if the transition needs to be repeated in an ostinato, even if the portamento transition is round robin sampled, it's just plain odd to have multiple portamento like that in a row. It's analogous to making a wind part that never breathes. On the other extreme, a library that only samples a pure clean fingered legato can feel quite less expressive, and the occasional intentional portamento slide in the right place can make all the difference in musicality.




Woodie1972 said:


> Even Aaron Venture asked this question in reply to a request like yours, if there would be people out there who would use such in-depth tweaking options.





Ethan Toavs said:


> That being said, the average listener will not notice any of these, and I do not see any way that such a feature will improve the ease of use of this library.


It certainly is complication for the library developer - actually I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being impossibly complex due to some details that we can't think of when discussing superficially like this. But on the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily more complicated for the user. From my own introspection in sight-reading violin long ago, and figuring out how to place my hand and fingers on-the-fly, I really think it could be possible to get 90% of such string/fingering choices chosen correctly by a real-time script that doesn't even need any lookahead, and another 7-8% of suboptimal choices that wouldn't really necessitate overriding by the user. Only the last 1-2 % would need a keyswitch or CC control to override the script to a specific string or to set a different "playing style". But I could be wrong, too, maybe this isn't so easy to implement.


----------



## shawnsingh

By the way, I also have to admit, while trying to come up with examples and taking half a day to think over it before replying, I believe it is absolutely the right thing to NOT include these ideas in the first versions of infinite strings. At least for myself, the only way I feel I can judge "how important is this effect for the typical listener" is to have the library loaded and to experiment with it first. It's very possible I wouldn't feel that this fingering simulation idea is missing.


----------



## vicontrolu

C mon guys..let's wish for something as good sounding and as playable as the rest of the series. 

I wouldnt even mind having extended articulations on an update later.


----------



## servandus

Maybe you guys are right, and nobody except nerds would notice the difference between those techniques, but I really think most people do hear the difference even if they can't explain exactly what it's all about (see the threads about SyS, BSS, MSS, NSS etc. and you can read all kinds of negative comments particularly about the legato transitions: bumpy, synthy, sterile and what not). Leaving aside sampling/programming issues, I think those comments arise only because of the musical context in which those legato transitions are wrongly used (exactly what @shawnsingh is mentioning about all these Schindler's List mockups posted)

We've been discussing for ages in this forum how akward it is to get even the most simple, common string gestures done with samples (using regular sustains for ondulating ostinati instead of legato samples, layering sustains and staccato for fast detaché strokes, and this kind of stuff). I certainly don't expect IS 1.0 to handle all the nuances of string playing, but I really hope it solves at least some of these common problems.



Jonathan Moray said:


> The legato transition on the other hand will most likely all be there. Those would be quite easy to fake in my mind.
> 
> The highest velocity would be bow-change with an accent. Or he might opt to just make it so when you leave the notes unconnected it would a fake bow-change legato.
> Below that normal bow-change.
> Below that heavy fingered.
> Below that normal fingered.
> Below that portamento and glissandos.
> Then you would easily be able to combine those how every you want. Portamento into fingered legato, no problem. Portamento into accented bow-change, easy.


That indeed would be a great approach to handle this, and would offer much more than what it's actually possible with most current libraries.

However, I would still prefer having two separate controllers for the left and right hands. Say CCx controls the left hand movements (no slide/fingered transitions -> normal legato (partial slide) -> one finger, fast slide legato -> portamento -> glissando), and CCy the right hand (one bow slur -> unaccented detaché -> one bow legato accent -> accented detaché -> heavy sffz accent simulating collé/martelé/bow landings/etc.). This would very easily allow all possible combinations, while also ensuring maximum playability for quick mockups or live performance (you would just set CCx to normal legato and CCy to one bow slur and just play).

The task is obviously complex, but this doesn't mean it the user interface should be. There're multiple ways to do it, and there's no need at all to sacrifice playability for nuance and control, nor the other way around.

EDIT: I mean, even if Aaron keeps the same approach he's used for IB & IW, we will have a dedicated CC for "legato speed" (simulating left hand movements), and indipendent attack control for the target note via CC/velocity (simulating bow change accents). That itself would be enough to make a huge difference and allow a lot of flexibility. That's why I'm so optimistic about IS.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

servandus said:


> Maybe you guys are right, and nobody except nerds would notice the difference between those techniques, but I really think most people do hear the difference even if they can't explain exactly what it's all about (see the threads about SyS, BSS, MSS, NSS etc. and you can read all kinds of negative comments particularly about the legato transitions: bumpy, synthy, sterile and what not). Leaving aside sampling/programming issues, I think those comments arise only because of the musical context in which those legato transitions are wrongly used (exactly what @shawnsingh is mentioning about all these Schindler's List mockups posted)
> 
> We've been discussing for ages in this forum how akward it is to get even the most simple, common string gestures done with samples (using regular sustains for ondulating ostinati instead of legato samples, layering sustains and staccato for fast detaché strokes, and this kind of stuff). I certainly don't expect IS 1.0 to handle all the nuances of string playing, but I really hope it solves at least some of these common problems.
> 
> 
> That indeed would be a great approach to handle this, and would offer much more than what it's actually possible with most current libraries.
> 
> However, I would still prefer two separate controllers for left and right hand. Say CCx controls the left hand movements (no slide/fingered transitions -> normal legato (partial slide) -> one finger, fast slide legato -> portamento -> glissando), and CCy the right hand (one bow slur -> unaccented detaché -> one bow legato accent -> accented detaché -> heavy sffz accent simulating collé/martelé/bow landings/etc.). This would very easily allow all possible combinations, while also ensuring maximum playability for quick mockups or live performance (you would just set CCx to normal legato and CCy to one bow slur and just play).
> 
> The task is obviously complex, but this doesn't mean it the user interface should be. There're multiple ways to do it, and there's no need at all to sacrifice playability for nuance and control, nor the other way around.


The whole point of these libraries is to be able to almost everything that you need to do simply with a combination of note velocity, note duration, and mod wheel. You claim that we "don't need to sacrifice playability," but then you propose that we add even more parameters to operate while playing. Adding all of these different options and controllers will just needlessly complicate things. The hallmark of these libraries is in their ease of use.


----------



## Markrs

In UX (my day job) this is a common issue, balancing Features/Complexity with Simplicity of use. It is very hard to do. Normally with high features and complexity I am designing for power users so simplicity is less important that utilising built in knowledge. That is why very powerful software (i.e. Photoshop) can be daunting to new users. As mentioned before Hollywood Orchestra is a good example of this when it comes to VST where it benefits learning it very well, to the point you become a power user. I personally think Reaper is also in that category (annoyingly HO was my first orchestra and reaper my first DAW as a beginner, which has lead to a steep learning curve).

I do agree though as sample libraries continue to grow more and more developers will try to tackle the desire for increased realism/expression/emotion/variety in libraries whilst keeping them simple to use.


----------



## servandus

Ethan Toavs said:


> The whole point of these libraries is to be able to almost everything that you need to do simply with a combination of note velocity, note duration, and mod wheel. You claim that we "don't need to sacrifice playability," but then you propose that we add even more parameters to operate while playing. Adding all of these different options and controllers will just needlessly complicate things. The hallmark of these libraries is in their ease of use.


No, that's not what I'm proposing for IS. Adding options does not necessarily mean you're forced to use them if you think you don't need them. I wrote this:



servandus said:


> This would very easily allow all possible combinations, while also ensuring maximum playability for quick mockups or live performance (you would just set CCx to normal legato and CCy to one bow slur and just play).


That is, if you do absolutely nothing with those CCs, you would still get what most libraries call legato.

I fully understand your point, and I certainly don't expect (or want) IS to bring the same level of control that other synthetic models already offer (bow pressure, bow speed, bow tilt, harmonic shifts, etc) because, as you say, that would inevitably complicate things too much (although I would expect some degree of control over bow placement, from sul tasto to sul ponticello). We already have AM for this, and there'll be an update soon which will hopefully improve the legato and timbre of their instruments, and then another one with sections later this year.

But, apart from what you mention about dynamics and note duration control (which wouldn't be enough even for brass and winds), we already have indipendent CCs in the infinite series to control vibrato depth/rate, legato speed, note attack, and even key noises, and these are more than enough to simulate what I'm talking about. It "just" a matter of getting the legato engine right, and a good model for the attacks of the different bow strokes. 

I don't know. I might be overly optimistic, but I'm quite confident that Aaron will do a good job with IS, and a better simulattion of string playing than what is currently possible with traditional sample libraries will finally become a reality, at least to a reasonable degree (nobody is obviously asking here for a virtual Itzhak Perlman anyway).


----------



## Denkii

Who would want to automate all those parameters?
People are already losing it over the features of MSS. This sounds like a terrible idea with regards to what the whole infinite series stands for - mainly playability.

I assume the strings will probably be the library of the infinite series that have the most controls involved to achieve certain things and all I hope for is that it sounds good enough but doesn't create a huge UX gap between woodwinds, brass and then strings.

To me personally the series lives from it's "easy to use yet respectable results" paradigm. It doesn't try to be the uber end it all realistic result and I would not want that to change midway through the series.

As much as we would love to have something that could live up to that standard, I think that for the majority of users, having the ability to tweak every minute detail is only something that sounds good in theory. People on a deadline won't have the time to do it or you would need to be a keyboard+controller virtuoso which again reduces the target audience for a product like that.
And if you can't get it to work properly because instead of playing/programming in your music now you also have to spend triple that amount of time to play around with controls, most people will instead opt in for something that's just recorded close enough to what they envisioned.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Denkii said:


> Who would want to automate all those parameters?
> People are already losing it over the features of MSS. This sounds like a terrible idea with regards to what the whole infinite series stands for - mainly playability.
> 
> I assume the strings will probably be the library of the infinite series that have the most controls involved to achieve certain things and all I hope for is that it sounds good enough but doesn't create a huge UX gap between woodwinds, brass and then strings.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## shawnsingh

Denkii said:


> Who would want to automate all those parameters?
> People are already losing it over the features of MSS. This sounds like a terrible idea with regards to what the whole infinite series stands for - mainly playability


Different courses... or was it horses? or something like that. For me infinite series is actually not about playability, though I completely agree it does that for others. For me it's about being able to achieve a new degree of expressiveness (and decent realism along with) with a very simple workflow.

So when I talk so much about choosing the right string and the right legato transition, I am imagining that scripting will actually do 95% of the work, and the way of controlling portamento could still be the same as infinite series already does it. There may be a need for a few additional controls that are not needed most of the time until user really wants to override what scripting does.

And of course, maybe you're right, there's always the chance that what I'm dreaming of is just too complicated to implement or maybe it isn't going to be as good a workflow as I think it could be... So for that reason I'm convinced it's not something to request or to worry about for the first versions of IS. Just having fun dreaming about what could be in the future.


----------



## Denkii

shawnsingh said:


> For me it's about being able to achieve a new degree of expressiveness (and decent realism along with) with a very simple workflow.


That's super fair and maybe I chose the wrong words. I was also thinking of that aspect.

I believe it's a fine line when it comes to what you're after. What I tried to focus on with my statement is that giving users all the controls to alter the sound sounds good in theory but is only a good thing for as long as people are still able (or willing) to handle all those things.

If you need to pour in five hours of automation work to achieve the expressiveness you're after, you might not be willing to do it at all.
If you give too little control, you lose a lot of control over the expressiveness and the product gets pushed into a specific segment of string libraries. I think this problem is more prevalent with strings than it is for brass and woodwinds and it will be hard to keep the same feel for using infinite strings with regards to how winds and brass are already working.

Maybe that's why I focus more on playability with my words because when it comes to extremely detailed control, that's more covered by purely modelled strings already and compared to infinite series libraries, their purely modelled counterparts are infinitely (HA!) harder to work with.

Edit: and when you say "I expect it to do 95% of what I want automatically"...that's the part that won't work for everyone. What works for you and the part you're writing might not work for someone else. So what would you do? Dictate more parameters at the expense of expressiveness or give more control at the expense of ease of use? Seeing how woodwinds and brass turned out so far, either drawback would not speak for this series. But giving all the controls makes it way harder to work with than the rest of the series (which is a concern of mine because I love how easy they are to work with).


----------



## FireGS

I sent Aaron a copy of that real Oboe I posted a few days ago, asking about potentially a more ducky-sounding oboe, with the transitions in the higher registers. He noticed as well, and agrees, and said he's going to see what can be done. Huzzah!


----------



## Denkii

That reminds me: Aaron mentioned he'd be looking into creating some sort of character EQ presets for instruments. It was a long time ago though so I don't know what the status on that is.

@aaronventure sorry for tagging you but could you tell us if that idea is still WIP or has it been dropped?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

FireGS said:


> I sent Aaron a copy of that real Oboe I posted a few days ago, asking about potentially a more ducky-sounding oboe, with the transitions in the higher registers. He noticed as well, and agrees, and said he's going to see what can be done. Huzzah!


Interesting. I wonder what tricks he has up his sleeve. I've tried everything to get a more hollow-sounding Oboe with a bit more of that duck-like quality, but I've found nothing I'm satisfied with.

Sound-wise I think the current instruments, mostly Flutes and Oboes, work fine for certain things, i.e. when they are in the context of an arrangement, but not so much for solo work. Would be nice to maybe get an extra "player" for each of the most soloistic instruments (Flute/Oboe/Clarinet/Bassoon) which focuses on working more as solos with a different timbre compared to the section players. There's probably a few things he can do to improve the current line up but I think there's only so much he can without recording new material, and since the sound I personally like for my solos are rather far from what's already there I don't think he will be able to make that drastic of a change without new material.

As most here, I have a lot of faith in Aaron and it's very reassuring when he continually keeps improving upon his instruments. I just hope he waits until after Infinite Strings and maybe Infinite Percussion to go all-in on a new round of improvements.


----------



## FireGS

Jonathan Moray said:


> As most here, I have a lot of faith in Aaron and it's very reassuring when he continually keeps improving upon his instruments. I just hope he waits until after Infinite Strings and maybe Infinite Percussion to go all-in on a new round of improvements.


He's doing a 1.6 in Brass and a 2......1? in Woodwinds while working on IS :D


----------



## shawnsingh

He must be waiting for the string players to tune their instruments. Could take a while.


----------



## Trevor Meier

aaronventure said:


> It's something I definitely took into consideration, but have decided to leave out. At least in v1.0. It complicates the overall execution and massively complicates the overall maintenance, I'll happily consider it again once all the kinks are ironed out.
> 
> How many people would even use that?
> 
> My feelings about that feature right now are if it's gonna have a significant impact, it would be in first chairs. So if it does ever appear, that's the first place it'll be.


Being able to specify the string (or some other method to select the string via e.g. a timbre control) is definitely something I would use. It allows the expressiveness of the instrument to come through in the natural timbre rather than through other methods like EQ etc. and allows for more variety and realism in the sounds available.


----------



## aaronventure

Infinite Series isn't about utter UI simplicity in order to appeal to as wide audience as possible, promising you have to press as few keys as possible to get your music out.

It's about _being able to _perform your music in real time, where the samples serve _you_ and you don't have to fight them, where you don't have to think about which recorded articulation from which library you need to complete the line you have in your head and what mixing tricks you then need to pull in order to match the sounds. All of that used to drain me so much and I found myself hating doing virtual orchestral music because of it.

But that's just me, there's nothing wrong with preferring to work with keyswitches and conventional samples, it's just that _I _found it to take too much time and still be limiting in terms of expression and writing. I wanted it to be you, your keyboard/sequencer, orchestration as it is for live orchestra, and whatever it is you have to say. No bullshit, just music.

So even though it wasn't about simplicity, it just so happens that it's also the quickest, simplest way of getting your music done, if you know what you're doing.

It's also why I would always recommend to anyone who wants to get into writing music for orchestra to learn to write idiomatically for each instrument, learn about the instruments, because then you have full control and know exactly what you're getting into once you grab that horns a12 patch. In my opinion it's much harder if you learn to work with ensemble patches and then start breaking it down to single instruments and idiomatic writing. Of course, it comes down to what target you're imagining for a beginner, and in this case I'm talking about being able to, at some point, write a piece of music and then be pretty confident about what you're gonna get when you put it on the stands in front of live players, not slamming brass ensemble patches along with string staccatos to write cheap knockoffs of popular trailer tracks. Because once you know the former, the latter becomes infinitely easier to do.

So now you know what you're doing, and you can get your music out on the fly, you just need the tools that let you do it.

There's so much stuff happening in the backend of Infinite I could create pages and pages of options and let you all tweak it to your heart's desire. But I'm also well aware that when an average user sees a bunch of options, they're inclined to think they have to make use of them all in order to get the full experience. It all gives you the idea that instead of working on your writing and orchestration and learning phrasing for specific instruments, what you need to make your music better is to find just the right setting for your VIs.

And now we've come full circle; we're not keyswitching articulations anymore, we're just tweaking knobs and parameters.

The same idea will apply to strings. Sit down, and be able to get your string music out in real time. Strings will naturally have more switches and sliders than brass/woods due to the sheer amount of techniques available, but the core experience will be the same. Which is why I'm hesitant to spend as much time as necessary for both development and maintenance of individual string options.



Jonathan Moray said:


> The highest velocity would be bow-change with an accent. Or he might opt to just make it so when you leave the notes unconnected it would a fake bow-change legato.
> Below that normal bow-change.
> Below that heavy fingered.
> Below that normal fingered.
> Below that portamento and glissandos.


I agree with the need for different legato techniques and this is pretty much what I had in mind. Due to full dynamic expressiveness, a user can inflect the notes themselves so velocity is then a viable parameter for choosing different types of legato. It's still early to tell what will be final. I have some other ideas I want to test out as well, I just wanted to say we're on the same page when it comes to this.



servandus said:


> However, I would still prefer having two separate controllers for the left and right hands. Say CCx controls the left hand movements (no slide/fingered transitions -> normal legato (partial slide) -> one finger, fast slide legato -> portamento -> glissando), and CCy the right hand (one bow slur -> unaccented detaché -> one bow legato accent -> accented detaché -> heavy sffz accent simulating collé/martelé/bow landings/etc.). This would very easily allow all possible combinations, while also ensuring maximum playability for quick mockups or live performance (you would just set CCx to normal legato and CCy to one bow slur and just play).


You know, this _sounds_ cool to me. As I said, it's still early and I don't know what exactly will be the final look of things, and while it certainly won't be this, I wouldn't mind experimenting with this down the line after release. The controllers could easily be pedals and while it would require you to have two continuous pedals and a decent amount of practice, it sounds doable.

No promise anything will come out of it, but like I said it sounds cool and if it turns out to be as cool as it sounds and actually brings something to the table i.e. it turns out the results _can _be noticeably better using this setup, I'll happily include a "servandus" button that changes the whole legato setup to this and push it to live.



Denkii said:


> character EQ presets


Added in Infinite Brass 1.2, removed with Infinite Brass 1.4 and Woodwinds 2.0. It was a band aid solution to tone issues that were plaguing Infinite with old IRs. It was the 5 most common curves I found myself using for various instruments in different contexts and mic mixes so it was useful having them a click away. Still, it was a band aid and not by any means a full solution. The only actual solution was to go back to square one and do the whole thing over again, which is what happened in 1.4. Once I introduced the new spaces, character presets became redundant.

They won't be making a comeback. After all, you're all big boys and girls, you should be able to pull up an EQ and dial in any curve you want without relying on a few awfully simple ones based on name alone. It'll be less performance-costly, too!


----------



## servandus

aaronventure said:


> No promise anything will come out of it, but like I said it sounds cool and if it turns out to be as cool as it sounds and actually brings something to the table i.e. it turns out the results _can _be noticeably better using this setup, I'll happily include a "servandus" button that changes the whole legato setup to this and push it to live.


Oh, that wouldn't be just an ordinary "servandus" button; that'd be a "servandus in heaven" button  I already can see myself clicking on it like an addict. Pure compulsion, no regrets, you know... just pecking it like Woody Woodpecker  You have no idea how much I'm craving for such a button! 

Now, in all seriousness. Just a little example of my sorrows (which, after reading your post, we probably share). Portamento. As sweet as dangerous, yes, we know. You'd only use it sparingly, just to bring expression to the peak in certain moments, right? OK, imagine those celli reaching a climax, just about to get to the highest note of a long, torturous crescendo line. And there you are, staring at Kontakt, forced to choose between portamento and a accented bow change. It's like asking a chlid "who do you love more, daddy or mommy?" 

That's just a crude example of many, many situations (fairly basic, nothing fancy) which make you suffer the limitations of current sample libraries, and that's also why Jonathan Moray's suggestion (even if it would be much better than what most traditional libraries offer), wouldn't work either (portamento or glissando would exclude an accented detaché, for example). That is, it's still mixing left hand techinques (slides, port., gliss, etc.) with right hand ones (one bow legato, normal/accented bow change, etc). That's extremely limiting for a string player.

However, as I said, there're multiple ways in which this could be implemented, and for that ideal balance between simplicity and control/expressiveness you talk about, using velocity as a general bow attack control (127 for the most brutal downbow landing possible, 0 for the smoothest one bow legato, and everything in between), and a dedicated CC for left hand movements (as described in my previous post) might be even better than 2 CCs to ensure maximum playability, and would probably be seen by users as the "logical string version" of the velocity/tonguing attack plus legato speed CC controls implemented in the brass and woodwinds (but please, don't discard that "servandus button" too soon; if it works well, then I'll ask for more )

In any case, a pleasure to have the opportunity to discuss this while you're still working on it, and more than happy if any of our suggestions ends up being something you can use in IS. Truth is, a good sounding string library offering that deegree of expressiveness and control is nothing short of a dream for many of us.


----------



## FireGS

servandus said:


> OK, imagine those celli reaching a climax, just about to get to the highest note of a long, torturous crescendo line. And there you are, staring at Kontakt, forced to choose between portamento and a accented bow change. It's like asking a chlid "who do you love more, daddy or mommy?"


This is beyond relatable, and I think I love you for this analogy.


----------



## Trevor Meier

servandus said:


> In any case, a pleasure to have the opportunity to discuss this while you're still working on it, and more than happy if any of our suggestions ends up being something you can use in IS. Truth is, a good sounding string library offering that deegree of expressiveness and control is nothing short of a dream for many of us.


I think there’s a real opportunity to revamp not only the articulations and control scheme, but also the nomenclature and way of thinking about how to play strings in a DAW. Sampled string libraries today use specific terms chosen ages ago when articulations were sparse (eg legato and spiccato) that today have many overlapping and conflicting meanings, often unrelated to the real world of string players and orchestrated music. For some things that’s OK, but with @aaronventure strings there’s an opportunity to re-think it.

In other words, the control scheme and available articulations can relate directly to how a string player interacts with their instrument. No more generic terms like “legato” that could mean so many things. Instead, specific terms relating to left hand playing like slur or finger pressure, and to right hand techniques like bow change, crescendo, detaché etc. Having more clear and precise language with both musical meaning and a playable interface would help our community evolve in a positive way.


----------



## Wendolinny

I (as a string player myself) want to point out that the problem of the fingered vs. bow-slur legato is highly coupled with string choice.

Consider the following two notes on the cello, E3 and F3. It is very impractical to _not _play those two on the same string (i). Now imagine we had this proposed string change/finger control. The user plays an E3. Let’s assume the engine would pick the sample played on the D string. The user sets the left-hand CC to fingered (i.e. non-portamento) and the right-hand CC to string change legato and plays an F3. The engine would now be forced to play the F3 on the G string. That would sound funny, because logically, this would force a very large leap of the left hand (and thus a hearable portamento in conflict with the left-hand CC). Plus, no-one would expect to hear a bow cross strings because of a half step and perhaps feel estranged.

I would propose that in order for this to be implemented in a logical and reasonably useable way, we would need three controls: *(1)* desired string, *(2)* left-hand speed/movement and *(3)* right-hand force/movement.

*(1)* could be some CC, equally divided into four sections representing the four strings (ii). This CC could be auto-guessed by the engine most of the time, so the user would not need to worry about that and only override it when necessary.
I would assign *(2)* to attack velocity, as we’re already used to from the other Infinite instruments. (Low attack means glissando ~> portamento ~> “portamento with finger switch” (iii) ~> purely fingered transition on mid to high attacks. (iv))
Finally, I would assign *(3)* to attack velocity and note overlapping, as we’re already used to from the other Infinite instruments: If two notes overlap, we hear a legato transition (i.e. the bow doesn’t change direction). Whether a string change should be audible is entirely determined by (1). If two notes do not overlap but are connected, the bow changes direction and the power of the new bow stroke will be determined by the attack of the new note, in consistency with (you guessed it) the rest of the series.
In addition, “interrupting” an on-going portamento at the right time with a high-velocity keystroke should yield a juicy portamento culminating in an accented bow change; one could realise servandus’ example easily by triggering a portamento with a very soft keystroke and time the repeated hard keystroke with the final moment of the portamento.

I believe that with this approach, we should be able to easily model anything within the realm of possibility and have the desired un-cluttered-ness of non-string player users who don’t care for all that. Plus, playability is not at risk. (I hope, I have not missed anything.  )

Aaron, I know you said implementing string choice in any manner could be very tricky and might not work/sound as satisfying as imagined. I completely understand if this issue is of minor importance to you for the first release. However, I’m afraid at least trying for some later update is necessary because with “hard-coded” string choices for every note, slow and fast trills on the wrong notes could derail the authenticity of a performance. If for example I want to play a B3–A3 ostinato or trill and B3 will only be available on the A string and A3 only on the D string (to avoid empty strings, let’s say), we would get a rather harsh timbre change that would make the result sound very synthetic, especially if the change is repeated.

(i) You could play the E on the G string and the F on the D string, but that would either involve a very tricky jump or thumb fingering. One would most certainly not play trills like that.
(ii) Naturally, some notes aren’t available on all strings. In that case, too high CC values default to the highest possible string.
(iii) meaning position change with finger switch, consider E3–A3 on the cello’s D string with the fingering 1–4, you slide with your index finger but put your pinky down hard on the destination. This will kind of sound like an interrupted portamento.
iv) Ideally, we could have a maximum gliss velocity control like with the trombones.

I’m really sorry for this wall of text, I wanted to make this at least _somewhat _understandable for everyone. 

EDIT: Fixed messed up formatting.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Great discussions. Although, for me, it's honestly getting a bit convoluted and I'm not sure I follow so I would like to clear a few things up.



servandus said:


> Oh, that wouldn't be just an ordinary "servandus" button; that'd be a "servandus in heaven" button  I already can see myself clicking on it like an addict. Pure compulsion, no regrets, you know... just pecking it like Woody Woodpecker  You have no idea how much I'm craving for such a button!
> 
> Now, in all seriousness. Just a little example of my sorrows (which, after reading your post, we probably share). Portamento. As sweet as dangerous, yes, we know. You'd only use it sparingly, just to bring expression to the peak in certain moments, right? OK, imagine those celli reaching a climax, just about to get to the highest note of a long, torturous crescendo line. And there you are, staring at Kontakt, forced to choose between portamento and a accented bow change. It's like asking a chlid "who do you love more, daddy or mommy?"
> 
> That's just a crude example of many, many situations (fairly basic, nothing fancy) which make you suffer the limitations of current sample libraries, and that's also why Jonathan Moray's suggestion (even if it would be much better than what most traditional libraries offer), wouldn't work either (portamento or glissando would exclude an accented detaché, for example). That is, it's still mixing left hand techinques (slides, port., gliss, etc.) with right hand ones (one bow legato, normal/accented bow change, etc). That's extremely limiting for a string player.
> 
> However, as I said, there're multiple ways in which this could be implemented, and for that ideal balance between simplicity and control/expressiveness you talk about, using velocity as a general bow attack control (127 for the most brutal downbow landing possible, 0 for the smoothest one bow legato, and everything in between), and a dedicated CC for left hand movements (as described in my previous post) might be even better than 2 CCs to ensure maximum playability, and would probably be seen by users as the "logical string version" of the velocity/tonguing attack plus legato speed CC controls implemented in the brass and woodwinds (but please, don't discard that "servandus button" too soon; if it works well, then I'll ask for more )
> 
> In any case, a pleasure to have the opportunity to discuss this while you're still working on it, and more than happy if any of our suggestions ends up being something you can use in IS. Truth is, a good sounding string library offering that deegree of expressiveness and control is nothing short of a dream for many of us.


Are you saying you would like to be able to change bow-direction in the middle of a portamento slide? Or are you talking about bow-change at the start or end of a portamento slide? Both of those should be doable with what I proposed combined with the current setup of the Infinite libraries. I don't really understand why it would be limiting.

As I stated before, I rather leave legato to be playable (switching between the different types of legato without keeping track of multiple CCs and if I remember you correctly you said that this would be automatic if you didn't touch the CCs?) and more niche effects and parameters to be tweakable in post. I'm not sure how you guys can tweak this many CCs while playing without using something like a Leap, and even then it's a lot to keep track of.



Wendolinny said:


> I (as a string player myself) want to point out that the problem of the fingered vs. bow-slur legato is highly coupled with string choice.
> 
> Consider the following two notes on the cello, E3 and F3. It is very impractical to _not _play those two on the same string (i). Now imagine we had this proposed string change/finger control. The user plays an E3. Let’s assume the engine would pick the sample played on the D string. The user sets the left-hand CC to fingered (i.e. non-portamento) and the right-hand CC to string change legato and plays an F3. The engine would now be forced to play the F3 on the G string. That would sound funny, because logically, this would force a very large leap of the left hand (and thus a hearable portamento in conflict with the left-hand CC). Plus, no-one would expect to hear a bow cross strings because of a half step and perhaps feel estranged.
> 
> I would propose that in order for this to be implemented in a logical and reasonably useable way, we would need three controls: *(1)* desired string, *(2)* left-hand speed/movement and *(3)* right-hand force/movement.
> 
> *(1)* could be some CC, equally divided into four sections representing the four strings (ii). This CC could be auto-guessed by the engine most of the time, so the user would not need to worry about that and only override it when necessary.
> I would assign *(2)* to attack velocity, as we’re already used to from the other Infinite instruments. (Low attack means glissando ~> portamento ~> “portamento with finger switch” (iii) ~> purely fingered transition on mid to high attacks. (iv))
> Finally, I would assign *(3)* to attack velocity and note overlapping, as we’re already used to from the other Infinite instruments: If two notes overlap, we hear a legato transition (i.e. the bow doesn’t change direction). Whether a string change should be audible is entirely determined by (1). If two notes do not overlap but are connected, the bow changes direction and the power of the new bow stroke will be determined by the attack of the new note, in consistency with (you guessed it) the rest of the series.
> In addition, “interrupting” an on-going portamento at the right time with a high-velocity keystroke should yield a juicy portamento culminating in an accented bow change; one could realise servandus’ example easily by triggering a portamento with a very soft keystroke and time the repeated hard keystroke with the final moment of the portamento.
> 
> I believe that with this approach, we should be able to easily model anything within the realm of possibility and have the desired un-cluttered-ness of non-string player users who don’t care for all that. Plus, playability is not at risk. (I hope, I have not missed anything.  )
> 
> Aaron, I know you said implementing string choice in any manner could be very tricky and might not work/sound as satisfying as imagined. I completely understand if this issue is of minor importance to you for the first release. However, I’m afraid at least trying for some later update is necessary because with “hard-coded” string choices for every note, slow and fast trills on the wrong notes could derail the authenticity of a performance. If for example I want to play a B3–A3 ostinato or trill and B3 will only be available on the A string and A3 only on the D string (to avoid empty strings, let’s say), we would get a rather harsh timbre change that would make the result sound very synthetic, especially if the change is repeated.
> 
> (i) You could play the E on the G string and the F on the D string, but that would either involve a very tricky jump or thumb fingering. One would most certainly not play trills like that.
> (ii) Naturally, some notes aren’t available on all strings. In that case, too high CC values default to the highest possible string.
> (iii) meaning position change with finger switch, consider E3–A3 on the cello’s D string with the fingering 1–4, you slide with your index finger but put your pinky down hard on the destination. This will kind of sound like an interrupted portamento.
> iv) Ideally, we could have a maximum gliss velocity control like with the trombones.
> 
> I’m really sorry for this wall of text, I wanted to make this at least _somewhat _understandable for everyone.
> 
> EDIT: Fixed messed up formatting.


Is there a reason you'd rather have CCs control string choice rather than momentary keyswitches? Also, "The user sets the left-hand CC to fingered (i.e. non-portamento) and the right-hand CC to string change legato and plays an F3", wouldn't it be better to just leave that to be velocity based? Just changing those two settings in real-time and getting the correct value to get the string you want would be somewhat of a pain in my opinion. Or is that the same idea that you bring up again when talking about "*(2)* left-hand speed/movement" and propose velocity?

This is the way I would suggest it be done for the easiest setup and it's the closest to the current Infinite Series layout. The only really new parameter would be the momentary keyswitches.

*(1)* desired string
Momentary keyswitches

*(2)* left-hand speed/movement
Velocity

*(3)* right-hand force/movement
Modwheel combined with Velocity

If by right-hand force/movement you mean dynamics.

I think it would also be better to have the user determine the legato transition at all times. Even if the user does something impossible like play a slide or fingered transition where a real player wouldn't or even couldn't do it. Then it would be up to you as a mock-up artist to make the correct choice that you want. In your case that would be knowledge of what's possible and what's not in the real world, in other cases that might be what they think sounds the best. This wouldn't take away anything from the user but still, the option would be there.


----------



## Wendolinny

Jonathan Moray said:


> Is there a reason you'd rather have CCs control string choice rather than momentary keyswitches?


I like CCs more than keyswitches.  With keyswitches, I have to remember where they are; also, for consistency reasons, I’d like the keyswitches to be at the same place for all instruments which will prove difficult, given the vastly disjoint ranges of all the string instruments. (And CCs are chased by DAWs by default.) But everyone has their preference, of course, it should be quite easy to write a REAPER JS script to convert keyswitches into CCs. And with ReaPlugs, that script could be used regardless of DAW choice. Heck, I’d even write one myself when the time comes.


Jonathan Moray said:


> Also, "The user sets the left-hand CC to fingered (i.e. non-portamento) and the right-hand CC to string change legato and plays an F3", wouldn't it be better to just leave that to be velocity based?


Sure, that’s what I proposed later in that post (and you did too, a few pages ago...). I just set up this example in accordance with earlier suggestions of this thread to showcase where I see problems with a one-CC-for-each-hand approach.


Jonathan Moray said:


> Just changing those two settings in real-time and getting the correct value to get the string you want would be somewhat of a pain in my opinion.


My thoughts exactly.


Jonathan Moray said:


> The only really new parameter would be the momentary keyswitches.


...or CCs, yes. 


Jonathan Moray said:


> I think it would also be better to have the user determine the legato transition at all times.


If I did not miss anything, with the “only string choice as a new control” concept, one should be able to do anything they want. In my opinion, controlling two different CCs for the string player’s hands and the modwheel plus playing a line, everything in real-time, seems a bit much. Sure, you would get access to every possible combination, but I’d argue you can get that as well if you base your controls differently and IMHO a bit more user friendly. With said approach, one could even recreate that non-sense example of playing a trill while crossing strings, it’s just that it would make that a more conscious decision and there would be less chance of being easily misled.


----------



## Dan

Perhaps the best way to do it would be to leave all parameters directly to the user for maximum flexibility. Aaron should split the library up into different solo instruments that each ship as a dedicated physical unit made out of beautifully varnished wood – totally analogue for the best sound quality. It would offer users the possibility to tweak legato transitions, note attacks, finger position etc. down to the last detail by using a smart combination of four strings and a bow, played in real time with their own two hands. It would be a bit difficult to master for beginners of course, but oh, the realism!

Joking aside... it was actually very interesting and insightful to read all your thoughts on strings. Can't wait to see how Infinite Strings handles all this.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Dan, I agree. It's been very interesting to read what people would deem to be their prefered way of working and what their "perfect" library would look like.

@Wendolinny, thanks I understand it all a bit better now. True, it wouldn't be too hard to hack something together in Reaper. We already have a keyswitch high up for re-tonguing, and since we don't have any other keyswitches yet we have a lot of space below the instrument's range.

I guess Aaron already has a pretty good idea of what he's going to do about all this for a 1.0 release and he might surprise us all with something that works great for at least most of us. The list of things I would like to change in Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass is _very short_. They just work great 99% of the time for my workflow.


----------



## servandus

Wendolinny said:


> I (as a string player myself) want to point out that the problem of the fingered vs. bow-slur legato is highly coupled with string choice.



Exactly, and that's why I said shawnsingh's post about string control was relevant.



> The user sets the left-hand CC to fingered (i.e. non-portamento) and the right-hand CC to string change legato and plays an F3. The engine would now be forced to play the F3 on the G string.



However, I don't follow you here. Why would anyone do that? (setting the right-hand CC to string change?).



> Jonathan Moray said:
> 
> Then it would be up to you as a mock-up artist to make the correct choice that you want. In your case that would be knowledge of what's possible and what's not in the real world, in other cases that might be what they think sounds the best. This wouldn't take away anything from the user but still, the option would be there.



Exactly my thoughts.



> Jonathan Moray said:
> 
> Are you saying you would like to be able to change bow-direction in the middle of a portamento slide? Or are you talking about bow-change at the start or end of a portamento slide?



No, never in the middle of a slide. In the traditional classical technique, you change bow direction right at the start of the target note, after the portamento slide. However in other styles (folk, jazz, etc.) you might want to start the portamento at the start of the slide. It'd be great if Aaron could implement both.




> Jonathan Moray said:
> 
> Both of those should be doable with what I proposed combined with the current setup of the Infinite libraries. I don't really understand why it would be limiting.



Then, I'm probably missing something here. If you say "The highest velocity would be bow-change with an accent", and then "Below that portamento and glissandos", how could you have both at the same time? Maybe you're talking about retriggering the target note with an accent after the portamento has been previously performed? It could work, but wouldn't it be more akward? 

@Wendolinny & @Jonathan Moray: I agree 2 different CCs is not the best idea for optimum real time performance, but my whole point is that there should be some way to control left and right hand techniques separately. Velocity for bowing control plus CC for left hand movements (or the other way around) is clearly better for real time playing, and allows exactly the same degree of control.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

servandus said:


> Exactly, and that's why I said shawnsingh's post about string control was relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I don't follow you here. Why would anyone do that? (setting the right-hand CC to string change?).
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> No, never in the middle of a slide. In the traditional classical technique, you change bow direction right at the start of the target note, after the portamento slide. However in other styles (folk, jazz, etc.) you might want to start the portamento at the start of the slide. It'd be great if Aaron could implement both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then, I'm probably missing something here. If you say "The highest velocity would be bow-change with an accent", and then "Below that portamento and glissandos", how could you have both at the same time? Maybe you're talking about retriggering the target note with an accent after the portamento has been previously performed? It could work, but wouldn't it be more akward?
> 
> @Wendolinny & @Jonathan Moray: I agree 2 different CCs is not the best idea for optimum real time performance, but my whole point is that there should be some way to control left and right hand techniques separately. Velocity for bowing control plus CC for left hand movements (or the other way around) is clearly better for real time playing, and allows exactly the same degree of control.


Alright, then we are on the same page. I thought it sounded odd if you wanted a bow-change in the middle of a portamento, it's not impossible, just very uncommon - unless done for a special effect.

That's why I also said "Or he might opt to just make it so when you leave the notes unconnected it would a fake bow-change legato" because that's what he does now for re-tonguing. If I want the trombones to do a slide and re-tongue before they hitting the target note I would do something like this:






Just leave a small gap just before the transition ends and the new note starts to do a re-tounge, then you can change the intensity of the new note (re-tounge / re-bow intensity) with the velocity of the new note. Or if you want a bow-change / re-tounge before the slide you just add the gap before.


----------



## BasariStudios

Is there any demo mp3 of this Library?


----------



## I like music

BasariStudios said:


> Is there any demo mp3 of this Library?


Literally 100s. Quite a lot of posts to sift through, but you'll find lots of examples.


----------



## Denkii

@doctoremmet Do you still have that thing where you started collecting infinite series demos?


----------



## doctoremmet

I do actually. But then IB1.5 and IW2.0 were released and I figured that I’d better wait for new demos to appear and present just those. And then stuff happened... yada yada... never finished it. Shame really.

I still have it though, so I could theoretically revive it. Just checked. It appears to be still on my phone and looks functional 

Figure there’s still some interest?


----------



## doctoremmet

If some of you could point me *) to like a Top 25 of übercool demos and mockups for IB and IW (current versions) I’ll happily create an updated “version 2” and share that here. This thing will only work on phones.

*) posts in this thread, SoundCloud & YT (hyperlinked)


----------



## Wendolinny

servandus said:


> However, I don't follow you here. Why would anyone do that? (setting the right-hand CC to string change?).


I believe someone earlier suggested including a string change option into the right-hand CC. (Could also be my imagination...) By pointing out the problems with this idea, I wanted to make a point in favour of a string choice CC.


Jonathan Moray said:


> I guess Aaron already has a pretty good idea of what he's going to do about all this for a 1.0 release and he might surprise us all with something that works great for at least most of us. The list of things I would like to change in Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass is _very short_. They just work great 99% of the time for my workflow.


True. He didn’t disappoint us with the winds, I’m confident he won’t with the strings either.


----------



## shawnsingh

OK, sorry for the mini-novel here. This isn't really a request for Infinite Strings v1.0, but I did want to share my idea about a next-gen control scheme for strings instruments. If the idea is interesting enough, then perhaps maybe something like this in the long term like Infinite Strings v3.0?

The key idea is that we should think about having abstractions between the instrument's physical actions sound generating parameters and the user control scheme. We should give a control scheme to users that is entirely about controlling the expressiveness of the performance. Some (but not all) bow stroke options would still be meaningful in an abstract expression-oriented control scheme. But left-hand fingering choices can be automated instead. So the user won't need to micromanage the string choice or legato transition style. Instead, the user can control these things by setting a "style" or "strategy" of the simulation.

More details:

About the fingering simulator:
Keeps track of hand position along the neck of the instrument and which string is being played. Uses this info, combined with (a) user's previous and next note, (b) user MIDI signals, (c) and "fingering style" to make decisions about the following:
which string(s) to sound for the next note
how to perform the transition from previous to next note

*"finger style" options would work in real-time, but that wouldn't be the intended primary use. The main use would be to set-it-and-forget for a particular passage, or even for a whole song or an entire template. Then, one additional CC control can be used to change the style as needed, typically in post-editing if the script doesn't do what user wanted.*
Here are examples of "fingering style" options that user can select for violin:
Four main options
Default - favor 1st position on G and D and A strings, no open strings, and favor 3rd position on A string before going to E string
favor string crossing instead of hand shift
favor hand shift instead of string crossing
favor sul-G (i.e. up to an octave+fifth above the open string)

And some "advanced" options
favor 5th position (i.e. up to a 9th interval above the open string)
favor 3rd position (i.e. up to a 7th interval above open string)
favor 1st position (i.e. up to a 5th interval above open string)
favor 1st position + open strings


here's a crude proposal of how the fingering simulation would work:
If user indicated a glissando
If next note can be reached on the same string
do a glissando transition, shift hand and stay on same string

If next note cannot be reached on the same string
this is an example of something less realistic that a user asked for in the first place, so it's OK to compromise.
If any string can reach both the previous and next note, switch to that string and perform the glissando, accepting the timbre change.
Otherwise, perform a "partial portamento" instead of glissando. (portamento on the previous string combined with string crossing)


If user indicated an expressive schmoozy transition, i.e. a "partial portamento"
use the current "finger style" and current finger position to decide where to place the next note. If the style rule cannot be satisfied due to the simulator's current position, fall back to a decision that gets closer to the style's preference.
So now, the fingering position of the next note is decided, then the next logic has to decide how to perform the transition.
if on same string:
slide to approximately a 4th/3rd interval away from the target note, then apply a cleaner finger-legato transition after that.

if on a different string:
do some interval math to figure out how far to do a portamento slide up the previous string, then do a bow change transition after that.


If user indicated a normal overlapped transition
use the current "finger style" and current finger position to decide where to place the next note. If the style rule cannot be satisfied due to the simulator's current position, fall back to a decision that gets closer to the style's preference.
So now, the fingering position of the next note is decided, then the next logic has to decide how to perform the transition.
if sustain pedal CC64 is OFF, do a legato transition:
Based on the previous note position and next note position, the simulator can decide how to perform the transition: An optional a brief slide to simulate hand position changing (i.e. a fast cleaner partial portamento), followed by either a fingered same-string transition or a string-crossing transition.
the speed of notes being played, along with humanization, will indicate how messy or clean the hand position slide will sound.

if sustain pedal CC64 is ON, do a bow-change transition
similar logic as OFF, including hand position sliding, except, using a bow-change-same-string or bow-change-string-crossing transition instead. hand position sliding can be scripted even cleaner or skipped entirely in this case.


Similar logic can be applied to double-stops
The fingering simulation "resets" if there is no note played for more than X milliseconds (maybe 1000?)
"Reset" does NOT mean that it doesn't play correct note transitions. It just means that the next finger position is not dependent on the previous finger position, only depends on the fingering style.
The user can trigger finger style change (or retrigger the same style) as a way of overriding the simulation if needed.


OK so after explaining all that, the control scheme can be very similar to infinite woodwinds/brass already:
Note velocity controls note attack or transition style
transition style can be either full-on gliss, schoomzy legato/bow-change, or clean legato/bow-change

Note velocity + CC dynamics curve - sculpt attack very flexibly
CC dynamics and CC vibrato - control the shape of the sustain part of the sound
<new for strings> Sustain pedal CC64 on: use on-the-bow stopped sound for both attacks and releases, and bow change for overlapping notes
<new for strings> Sustain pedal CC64 off: use attacks that start from the air off-the-bow, and also off-the-bow resonanting sound for releases, and legato transitions for overlapping notes
<new for strings> CC required to control finger simulator style option
<new for strings> CC or keyswitch required for special articulation control like sul pont, tremolo, pizz, col legno
This is only 2 extra CC's + additional use of CC64 sustain pedal compared to what most people would use in Infinite Brass and Infinite WW already (if people usually use two CCs and note velocity) - maybe tolerable?


If anyone really does read this... would love to hear your thoughts. Cheers!


----------



## servandus

Jonathan Moray said:


> Just leave a small gap just before the transition ends and the new note starts to do a re-tounge, then you can change the intensity of the new note (re-tounge / re-bow intensity) with the velocity of the new note. Or if you want a bow-change / re-tounge before the slide you just add the gap before.


Thanks for the screenshot. No doubts now. I can see what you meant.



Wendolinny said:


> I believe someone earlier suggested including a string change option into the right-hand CC. (Could also be my imagination...) By pointing out the problems with this idea, I wanted to make a point in favour of a string choice CC.


Oh, I missed that. If IS would finally give us control over the string choice, I'm also for dedicated CC (or KS, I'd really have no preference here). 



shawnsingh said:


> OK so after explaining all that, the control scheme can be very similar to infinite woodwinds/brass already:
> 
> Note velocity controls note attack or transition style
> transition style can be either full-on gliss, schoomzy legato/bow-change, or clean legato/bow-change
> 
> Note velocity + CC dynamics curve - sculpt attack very flexibly


Great mini novel  I'd be more than happy if I could control string changes myself via CC/KS, but if that eventually becomes a reality in future versions, I agree that some kind of automatic/default behavior should then also be included for real time performance.

However, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean about note velocity in the part I quote. In the case of strings, I don't think note velocity should be allowed to affect more than one aspect of the performance: either left hand transitions (as in the rest of the series) or amount/types of bow accent affecting the overall dynamics (if a CC is then set to control left hand transitions), but not both at the same time for the reasons mentioned in previous posts. Not sure if that is what you mean, though.


----------



## shawnsingh

servandus said:


> However, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean about note velocity in the part I quote. In the case of strings, I don't think note velocity should be allowed to affect more than one aspect of the performance: either left hand transitions (as in the rest of the series) or amount/types of bow accent affecting the overall dynamics (if a CC is then set to control left hand transitions), but not both at the same time for the reasons mentioned in previous posts. Not sure if that is what you mean, though.



Wow, thanks for actually reading it =) You're right, I was unclear - I didn't mean that velocity would control twi different aspects of the same note. I meant that (a) midi velocity could control attack for the first note, i.e that doesn't have a previous overlapping midi note, and (b) would control the type of transition used for for subsequent notes that overlap the first (i.e. legato). For the type of transition, accent style might be part of it (e.g. for bow-change legato), but not necessarily. It's just the same idea of how IB and IW work now, only additional idea was bow change and on-the-string style with CC64.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

shawnsingh said:


> OK, sorry for the mini-novel here. This isn't really a request for Infinite Strings v1.0, but I did want to share my idea about a next-gen control scheme for strings instruments. If the idea is interesting enough, then perhaps maybe something like this in the long term like Infinite Strings v3.0?
> 
> The key idea is that we should think about having abstractions between the instrument's physical actions sound generating parameters and the user control scheme. We should give a control scheme to users that is entirely about controlling the expressiveness of the performance. Some (but not all) bow stroke options would still be meaningful in an abstract expression-oriented control scheme. But left-hand fingering choices can be automated instead. So the user won't need to micromanage the string choice or legato transition style. Instead, the user can control these things by setting a "style" or "strategy" of the simulation.
> 
> More details:
> 
> About the fingering simulator:
> Keeps track of hand position along the neck of the instrument and which string is being played. Uses this info, combined with (a) user's previous and next note, (b) user MIDI signals, (c) and "fingering style" to make decisions about the following:
> which string(s) to sound for the next note
> how to perform the transition from previous to next note
> 
> *"finger style" options would work in real-time, but that wouldn't be the intended primary use. The main use would be to set-it-and-forget for a particular passage, or even for a whole song or an entire template. Then, one additional CC control can be used to change the style as needed, typically in post-editing if the script doesn't do what user wanted.*
> Here are examples of "fingering style" options that user can select for violin:
> Four main options
> Default - favor 1st position on G and D and A strings, no open strings, and favor 3rd position on A string before going to E string
> favor string crossing instead of hand shift
> favor hand shift instead of string crossing
> favor sul-G (i.e. up to an octave+fifth above the open string)
> 
> And some "advanced" options
> favor 5th position (i.e. up to a 9th interval above the open string)
> favor 3rd position (i.e. up to a 7th interval above open string)
> favor 1st position (i.e. up to a 5th interval above open string)
> favor 1st position + open strings
> 
> 
> here's a crude proposal of how the fingering simulation would work:
> If user indicated a glissando
> If next note can be reached on the same string
> do a glissando transition, shift hand and stay on same string
> 
> If next note cannot be reached on the same string
> this is an example of something less realistic that a user asked for in the first place, so it's OK to compromise.
> If any string can reach both the previous and next note, switch to that string and perform the glissando, accepting the timbre change.
> Otherwise, perform a "partial portamento" instead of glissando. (portamento on the previous string combined with string crossing)
> 
> 
> If user indicated an expressive schmoozy transition, i.e. a "partial portamento"
> use "finger style" setting to decide whether it should be performed on the same string or with a string crossing
> if on same string:
> slide to approximately a 4th/3rd interval away from the target note, then apply a cleaner finger-legato transition after that.
> 
> if on a different string:
> do some interval math to figure out how far to do a portamento slide up the previous string, then do a bow change transition after that.
> 
> 
> If user indicated a normal overlapped transition
> use the current "finger style" and current finger position to decide where to place the next note. If the style rule cannot be satisfied due to the simulator's current position, fall back to a decision that gets closer to the style's preference.
> So now, the fingering position of the next note is decided, then the next logic has to decide how to perform the transition.
> if sustain pedal CC64 is OFF, do a legato transition:
> Based on the previous note position and next note position, the simulator can decide how to perform the transition: An optional a brief slide to simulate hand position changing (i.e. a fast cleaner partial portamento), followed by either a fingered same-string transition or a string-crossing transition.
> the speed of notes being played, along with humanization, will indicate how messy or clean the hand position slide will sound.
> 
> if sustain pedal CC64 is ON, do a bow-change transition
> similar logic as OFF, including hand position sliding, except, using a bow-change-same-string or bow-change-string-crossing transition instead. hand position sliding can be scripted even cleaner or skipped entirely in this case.
> 
> 
> Similar logic can be applied to double-stops
> The fingering simulation "resets" if there is no note played for more than X milliseconds (maybe 1000?)
> "Reset" does NOT mean that it doesn't play correct note transitions. It just means that the next finger position is not dependent on the previous finger position, only depends on the fingering style.
> The user can trigger finger style change (or retrigger the same style) as a way of overriding the simulation if needed.
> 
> 
> OK so after explaining all that, the control scheme can be very similar to infinite woodwinds/brass already:
> Note velocity controls note attack or transition style
> transition style can be either full-on gliss, schoomzy legato/bow-change, or clean legato/bow-change
> 
> Note velocity + CC dynamics curve - sculpt attack very flexibly
> CC dynamics and CC vibrato - control the shape of the sustain part of the sound
> <new for strings> Sustain pedal CC64 on: use on-the-bow stopped sound for both attacks and releases, and bow change for overlapping notes
> <new for strings> Sustain pedal CC64 off: use attacks that start from the air off-the-bow, and also off-the-bow resonanting sound for releases, and legato transitions for overlapping notes
> <new for strings> CC required to control finger simulator style option
> <new for strings> CC or keyswitch required for special articulation control like sul pont, tremolo, pizz, col legno
> This is only 2 extra CC's + additional use of CC64 sustain pedal compared to what most people would use in Infinite Brass and Infinite WW already (if people usually use two CCs and note velocity) - maybe tolerable?
> 
> 
> If anyone really does read this... would love to hear your thoughts. Cheers!


Woah... I looked through it and it seems even _more _convoluted than the previous suggestions. It seems interesting but I will most likely need to go through it a few times to absorb it all. Luckily going off the last bullet point's summarises it pretty nicely.

First off, this seems like hell to program. I really don't care about adding things like this at a later date as long as they are optional (it can be overwritten at any time), doesn't degrade the performance (both playability and the CPU cycles needed), and as long as it's hidden well so it doesn't clutter up the main interface.

I would say, someone that cares this much about these sorts of things and can hear the difference in timber or playing portamento between two notes where a real player actually can't, will probably want to micromanage either way. I understand it would be nice to have for the ultimate realism and convenience.

Of course, I wouldn't be against something like this for a later version as long as it doesn't make it too cluttered, too performance-intensive, or limits user intervention/takes away control from the user.



shawnsingh said:


> If next note can be reached on the same string
> do a glissando transition, shift hand and stay on same string
> 
> If next note cannot be reached on the same string
> this is an example of something less realistic that a user asked for in the first place, so it's OK to compromise.
> If any string can reach both the previous and next note, switch to that string and perform the glissando, accepting the timbre change.
> Otherwise, perform a "partial portamento" instead of glissando. (portamento on the previous string combined with string crossing)


This was pretty much the extent of "intelligence" I suggested for the program to determine under the hood with the choice to overwrite - giving the user the choice to force a certain string via momentary keyswitches (or CCs...) you could do all of this. You just need to have a deep understanding of the instrument to choose the correct string paired with the right transition, and if you don't already have that understanding and relationship with the instrument, I don't think the nuanced difference in an intelligent engine like the one you suggested would make much difference for most people. Of crouse, I could be wrong.

We often hear that virtual instruments won't measure up to the real thing, true, but sometimes the real thing won't always measure up to virtual instruments - they both have strengths and weaknesses and sometimes something that's not especially realistic will sound the best. That's why I keep reiterating to still give the user the choice of doing something totally unrealistic and not box them in with an "intelligent" system that makes the choices for you. Not saying that's what you are suggesting because I didn't get that from what you wrote, I just want to raise that point again because I feel it is important.


----------



## shawnsingh

@Jonathan Moray great feedback, thanks. If anyone needs to make their life more convoluted, I can help.

It's very fair argument of "will people really hear it, does it really matter for the complexity". But I do think people will hear it. It may not be obvious why it sounds better initially, but it will feel like "this sounds more realistic, I can't pinpoint why". The analogy is 4k vs 1080p video. A lot of scenarios it doesn't matter. Some scenarios it's obviously better, and that's enough to make 4k an essential feature everywhere. There was the eye-rolling factor years ago where a lot of people asked "isn't 1080p good enough?".

So how about instead, "why not do this, if it doesn't complicate a user's life?" 
I think virtual instrument tech has already reached the level of sophistication where this kind of complexity is necessary to stay competitive and reach the next level of awesome.

Borodin Polovtsian dances is another excellent example of why finger-simulation would be great. Here's a link to a specific time on a decent recording - this melody keeps going back and forth between E and F-sharp and some lower notes, most sample libraries would only have sampled F-sharp on the E string, so it would be notably brighter and more nasal than all the other notes. Some libraries even sampled open E-string instead of the softer E being played on the A string. This completely defeats the the beauty of this melody. So we either say (a) "this is good enough", or (b) we provide users extremely low level controls and expect them to tediously manage all the mechanics of playing the violin expressively - assuming users even know enough about violin to do that, or (c) users can benefit from scripting to do the heavy lifting and get a far more realistic and expressive result without spending ridiculous time.


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure - NOPE not asking about Infinite Strings. You may already have answered this, but in your A/B comparison you did for Swan Lake (Vienna Philharmonic) what sort of settings did you have in place (Mozarteum, mic etc)? And was there much processing going on beyond?

https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass-swan-lake


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> @aaronventure - NOPE not asking about Infinite Strings. You may already have answered this, but in your A/B comparison you did for Swan Lake (Vienna Philharmonic) what sort of settings did you have in place (Mozarteum, mic etc)? And was there much processing going on beyond?
> 
> https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass-swan-lake


Everything is default, the horns have a bit more close mic in the mix. The brass is overall mixed a couple dB louder than woodwinds. There's tape saturation on the master, a compressor shaving 1-2 dB on the loudest parts only, and an EQ at ~2 kHz ~-6 dB bell curve for the oboe solo. 

I think this is the only demo where I had an EQ for any IW/IB instrument. Beyond these 3 things, there's nothing else.

Doing stuff like this is amazing for learning, you pick up so much not only on orchestration and composition, but performance, tempo and phrasing as well. I always start off with the tempo map (set the reference to be time-dependent, not beats/measures), then perform to click.


----------



## tabulius

After some optimizations and Bios tweaking (and rising the buffer to 512) I managed to keep CPU around 70-80 and no severe crackles. I hope to upgrade my PC within this year, but I'm happy that I can use most of the Infinite instruments in my template.

Here is an epic fantasy adventure music featuring Cinematic Studio Strings, Performance Samples Vista & Caspian, Infinite Woodwinds & Brass, Berlin Brass, Musical Sampling Atelier Series Amy, Fluid Shorts, Bohemian Violin, Ark1 Choir, Cinesamples Percussion, Action Strikes.


----------



## Loïc D

Allow me to post here a mockup of Rimsky Korsakov's Sheherazade, taken from Mvt I.




Woodwinds were done exclusively using *Infinite Woodwinds*.

It's sooooo convenient to work with them, and I don't see myself going back the keyswitch route.

All parts were actually played, then edited, which ends up with a more natural sounding.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Everything is default, the horns have a bit more close mic in the mix. The brass is overall mixed a couple dB louder than woodwinds. There's tape saturation on the master, a compressor shaving 1-2 dB on the loudest parts only, and an EQ at ~2 kHz ~-6 dB bell curve for the oboe solo.
> 
> I think this is the only demo where I had an EQ for any IW/IB instrument. Beyond these 3 things, there's nothing else.
> 
> Doing stuff like this is amazing for learning, you pick up so much not only on orchestration and composition, but performance, tempo and phrasing as well. I always start off with the tempo map (set the reference to be time-dependent, not beats/measures), then perform to click.


Fantastic, thank you so much! I'm always impressed by this test/mockup. Gets very close in many ways.


----------



## Dmitry

Hello, here wrote about a update... It's not released yet? or I misunderstood something...Thanks!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

tabulius said:


> After some optimizations and Bios tweaking (and rising the buffer to 512) I managed to keep CPU around 70-80 and no severe crackles. I hope to upgrade my PC within this year, but I'm happy that I can use most of the Infinite instruments in my template.
> 
> Here is an epic fantasy adventure music featuring Cinematic Studio Strings, Performance Samples Vista & Caspian, Infinite Woodwinds & Brass, Berlin Brass, Musical Sampling Atelier Series Amy, Fluid Shorts, Bohemian Violin, Ark1 Choir, Cinesamples Percussion, Action Strikes.



it's incredible


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Supremo said:


> Mind to elaborate what setting that is? I’m on Reaper too and I do experience crackles at times. Thanks!


I think this is it:





There may have been more things I did, but I can't remember exactly. But I do remember this being what Aaron told me to turn on.


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I think this is it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There may have been more things I did, but I can't remember exactly. But I do remember this being what Aaron told me to turn on.


Yes, those are the settings you want to turn on. Except that I have unchecked "Allow on tracks without FX".
How many cores do you have?


----------



## Supremo

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I think this is it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There may have been more things I did, but I can't remember exactly. But I do remember this being what Aaron told me to turn on.


I'm actually having the same settings turned on except for the "Allow on tracks without FX" one, as I thought it shouldn't make any difference. Will test again having that box turned on too.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I've been trying to recreate one of my favourite tracks from Don Davis' Jurassic Park 3. I love how expressive the horns can get. It's taking longer to sculpt, but I can get super specific.


----------



## FireGS

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I've been trying to recreate one of my favourite tracks from Don Davis' Jurassic Park 3. I love how expressive the horns can get. It's taking longer to sculpt, but I can get super specific.



I really don't know of any other library that can get this tone, or performance with such ease (relative term).


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

FireGS said:


> I really don't know of any other library that can get this tone, or performance with such ease (relative term).


The library has got me (a non play-it-live guy) performing the notes so much better. Composing is getting fun again 😁


----------



## soulofsound

FireGS said:


> I really don't know of any other library that can get this tone, or performance with such ease (relative term).


Caspian perhaps.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Another feature I hope we will see in Infinite Strings at some point is a romantic/expressive/synchronous/asynchronous slider for the vibrato.

If you are not sure what I'm on about I will try and explain. Let's say the vibrato is a perfect sine with slight non-linearity/randomization making it drift out of its perfect uniformity - this is of course natural for players since we are all human, even the world-class players although it doesn't always seem so.

So, when you then stack players, that drift can go from perfectly in-phase/synchronous to 180' out of phase if it's completely random. I'm not talking about the audio going out of phase but the vibrato. If you were to add some sort of arbitrary randomness to the vibrato it will never try and get back in sync with the other players, it might just drift further apart.

Having players play very synchronous gives the impression of a stronger and more coherent vibrato in sections, while having a very asynchronous vibrato gives the impression of width and size. A slider to control this would be handy, and like with everything else, not perfect sync but within the human realm.


----------



## Jamus

Let's have one player that breathes too heavy with a subtle nose whistle and another that keeps making their chair squeak on the floor. A bit experimental but we should get a nice capture of the empty chair of the player who didn't bother to turn up 👌

I'm wondering how the ensemble function would differ from solo instruments. If we were to write for five celli with the intention of using both unisons and five voice chords would it be the same to combine five solo cello as it would to adjust ensemble size for one cello?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> I'm wondering how the ensemble function would differ from solo instruments. If we were to write for five celli with the intention of using both unisons and five voice chords would it be the same to combine five solo cello as it would to adjust ensemble size for one cello?


I would hope so. The ensemble patch will have a couple more features it seems like (auto divis as an example) but I hope the general workflow will still revolve around being able to use the single players and get as good of a result not matter if they play unison or divis.

Personally, I don't think I will be using the ensemble patch at all, not really my workflow and I rather have control over the individual players, so I really hope I won't be cripple by doing so.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I would hope so. The ensemble patch will have a couple more features it seems like (auto divis as an example) but I hope the general workflow will still revolve around being able to use the single players and get as good of a result not matter if they play unison or divis.
> 
> Personally, I don't think I will be using the ensemble patch at all, not really my workflow and I rather have control over the individual players, so I really hope I won't be cripple by doing so.


I hope you like writing for small chamber ensembles and not full symphony orchestras lol


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> I hope you like writing for small chamber ensembles and not full symphony orchestras lol


I do! But I rarely get the chance when using VIs because it often ends up having to be recorded to sound decent and not having VIs that adequately works for those types of mockups is a hassle to work with.

I've been listening to a lot of soundtracks that I adore and realized that there's something special I really like about smaller ensembles that I wish I could at least mimic with VIs.

But I do understand why this might seem odd and it's not as if I micromanage every single player. I like to have the option but I don't necessarily exercise it all the time. Most of than not I micromanage individual desks instead of individual players for larger ensembles.

My template looks something like this. So for a really big horn section, I really only need to use the three A B C tracks and if I find that cumbersome I can also opt to just have a Horns a12 track to control all of them at once if I don't feel like doing any individual adjustments or chords. It still leaves me access to the single players at all times if needed.

The five first tracks only have their midi routed to the single instrument tracks so there's no FX/VSTi loaded on them just midi sends. This way I can easily make changes to individual instruments and have that reflected in both the single instruments and ensembles without having to make the same adjustments across multiple patches/track.


----------



## PerryD

What good is a library if you can't abuse it once in awhile?  IB Contra Tuba & Trombones. (real trumpet with a SoloTone mute). Nothing better than doing something silly to help with writer's block.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I do! But I rarely get the chance when using VIs because it often ends up having to be recorded to sound decent and not having VIs that adequately works for those types of mockups is a hassle to work with.
> 
> I've been listening to a lot of soundtracks that I adore and realized that there's something special I really like about smaller ensembles that I wish I could at least mimic with VIs.
> 
> But I do understand why this might seem odd and it's not as if I micromanage every single player. I like to have the option but I don't necessarily exercise it all the time. Most of than not I micromanage individual desks instead of individual players for larger ensembles.
> 
> My template looks something like this. So for a really big horn section, I really only need to use the three A B C tracks and if I find that cumbersome I can also opt to just have a Horns a12 track to control all of them at once if I don't feel like doing any individual adjustments or chords. It still leaves me access to the single players at all times if needed.
> 
> The five first tracks only have their midi routed to the single instrument tracks so there's no FX/VSTi loaded on them just midi sends. This way I can easily make changes to individual instruments and have that reflected in both the single instruments and ensembles without having to make the same adjustments across multiple patches/track.


That's pretty cool! I'll be doing something like this when I can find the time. Depending on what the strings ultimately allow us to do (in terms of splitting control over 'individual' players) I'll probably have 1 or 2 controllable individuals, and then split the rest out into larger chunks. And then have one final controllable section (for laying down and sketching the first line). If the music itself is one that I want to put more effort into, then I'd probably start pasting that data into the different 'building up' sections, and tweak all those later.


----------



## Loïc D

PerryD said:


> What good is a library if you can't abuse it once in awhile?  IB Contra Tuba & Trombones. (real trumpet with a SoloTone mute). Nothing better than doing something silly to help with writer's block.



Those slides, wow. Is it IB?


----------



## PerryD

Loïc D said:


> Those slides, wow. Is it IB?


Yes.


----------



## Loïc D

PerryD said:


> Yes.


Thanks. Starting to save for IB now (I'm already fond of IW).


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds playing low brooding chords. Ignore the ending lol, that wasn't supposed to be there 😂


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds playing low brooding chords. Ignore the ending lol, that wasn't supposed to be there 😂



Seems I can't access it!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I like music said:


> Seems I can't access it!


Updated 😁


----------



## matthieuL

Hello,

I own Infinite Woodwinds, it's really great, but I can't manage to do glissandi on Clarinets. I read the manual, and tried low velocities, but I always have attacks on each note, not at all glissando effect. I tried different velocities and CC1 combination, no success. 
What am I missing ? Is there a video tutorial ?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

matthieuL said:


> Hello,
> 
> I own Infinite Woodwinds, it's really great, but I can't manage to do glissandi on Clarinets. I read the manual, and tried low velocities, but I always have attacks on each note, not at all glissando effect. I tried different velocities and CC1 combination, no success.
> What am I missing ? Is there a video tutorial ?


You need to set the legato min to a lower value than 41 and only after that can you use a velocity below 41 for gliss. The legato min limits how low the velocity for legato can go.


----------



## matthieuL

Ah ok, thanks !!


----------



## Terry93D

Every time I look at LASS, I have to remind myself: consider the difficulty of learning that A.R.C. thing. consider that the Infinite Strings will sound better, and have more options for the size of your ensemble. consider how playable and flexible it will be from the get-go.

Gentlefolk, it is still difficult indeed to resist the urge to toss a little bit of money to Audiobro; and I am tempted still to spring for LASS Lite.


----------



## Kent

Terry93D said:


> consider the difficulty of learning that A.R.C. thing.


It takes about 15 minutes of passive video-watching. Don't let it scare you!


----------



## Terry93D

kmaster said:


> It takes about 15 minutes of passive video-watching. Don't let it scare you!


I also don't want to invest several hundred into a library that very soon will be replaced -- from what I hear, LASS 3 is going to be 2.5 w/ a considerably friendlier interface, with release later this year. So probably if I were to purchase something from AudioBro it'd be LASS Lite.


----------



## Jamus

Terry93D said:


> I also don't want to invest several hundred into a library that very soon will be replaced -- from what I hear, LASS 3 is going to be 2.5 w/ a considerably friendlier interface, with release later this year. So probably if I were to purchase something from AudioBro it'd be LASS Lite.


I know how that goes! Recently took the plunge on SWAM strings, now V3 is coming and I'll have to pay again if I want it 😂

Won't have that problem with Infinite 👍


----------



## Staw

Jamus said:


> I know how that goes! Recently took the plunge on SWAM strings, now V3 is coming and I'll have to pay again if I want it 😂
> 
> Won't have that problem with Infinite 👍



If it's recent (I think past month or so?), wouldn't Audio Modeling upgrade yours to V3 for free?


----------



## Jamus

Staw said:


> If it's recent (I think past month or so?), wouldn't Audio Modeling upgrade yours to V3 for free?


More like 6 months recent 🙁


----------



## gedlig

*DISCLAIMER* Not directed specifically to Aaron, don't add +1 month to release for the people waiting :D

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere, so I reckon there won't be any kind of slider or something to naturally transition between normal and sul pont bowing or normal and harmonic notes, right? To do something like the occasional dipping into harmonics in the assassin's creed black flag theme or some apocalyptica style things.


----------



## DANIELE

gedlig said:


> *DISCLAIMER* Not directed specifically to Aaron, don't add +1 month to release for the people waiting :D
> 
> I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere, so I reckon there won't be any kind of slider or something to naturally transition between normal and sul pont bowing or normal and harmonic notes, right? To do something like the occasional dipping into harmonics in the assassin's creed black flag theme or some apocalyptica style things.


I think no one but Aaron knows what the library controls will look like. Generally speaking Aaron tends to avoid keyswitches but with strings it could be something different due to the large amount of techniques available. I think Aaron will try to follow it's nature so we will have more sliders then keyswitches but he will do what he will think it would be better for the workflow. Only Aaron could answer your question. Maybe he is still testing some workflows.

So to try to give you an answer the library could have a slider to perform what you said.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

gedlig said:


> *DISCLAIMER* Not directed specifically to Aaron, don't add +1 month to release for the people waiting :D
> 
> I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere, so I reckon there won't be any kind of slider or something to naturally transition between normal and sul pont bowing or normal and harmonic notes, right? To do something like the occasional dipping into harmonics in the assassin's creed black flag theme or some apocalyptica style things.


We can always hope but I think it will be hard to fake something like that. Since the Infinite Series isn't exactly modeled it will be hard to give the huge amount of control as a modeled instrument would. Aaron has done impressive stuff with his instruments so I have faith.

But blending between sul pont or harmonics might be hard via something like IRs, I think new samples would be required for that since the sounds are so different from each other. And if you want to be able to blend when ever you want then you would have to have the samples play underneath the normal samples (like a couple of devs do for their vibrato samples) that would mean 3x the voices for a simple Sustain (normal, sul pont, harmonics).

I hope we at least get the samples for for harmonics and maybe sul pont, because then I would be able to render a phrase with each technique and then blend them in the daw/offline.

Or maybe Aaron will surprise us all with his wizardry.


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> I think no one but Aaron knows what the library controls will look like. Generally speaking Aaron tends to avoid keyswitches but with strings it could be something different due to the large amount of techniques available. I think Aaron will try to follow it's nature so we will have more sliders then keyswitches but he will do what he will think it would be better for the workflow. Only Aaron could answer your question. Maybe he is still testing some workflows.
> 
> So to try to give you an answer the library could have a slider to perform what you said.


Thanks for the answer  Ye, I imagine it's a massive pain figuring out how to do all the options with strings while also trying to make it as good as possible out of the gate. Can't really imagine it. And this is only doing classical strings. Imagine trying to make it with both classical and looser folk style fiddling with additional noises and stuff at the same time :D


----------



## gedlig

Jonathan Moray said:


> We can always hope but I think it will be hard to fake something like that. Since the Infinite Series isn't exactly modeled it will be hard to give the huge amount of control as a modeled instrument would. Aaron has done impressive stuff with his instruments so I have faith.
> 
> But blending between sul pont or harmonics might be hard via something like IRs, I think new samples would be required for that since the sounds are so different from each other. And if you want to be able to blend when ever you want then you would have to have the samples play underneath the normal samples (like a couple of devs do for their vibrato samples) that would mean 3x the voices for a simple Sustain (normal, sul pont, harmonics).
> 
> I hope we at least get the samples for for harmonics and maybe sul pont, because then I would be able to render a phrase with each technique and then blend them in the daw/offline.
> 
> Or maybe Aaron will surprise us all with his wizardry.


Sure would be difficult with the way he makes these libraries (not being fully modeled). And it's not just another sample underneath, but the transition itself really should be a completely unique sound and noise, not a simple cross fade. So yeah, hoping for the best, but not going to be disappointed if a natural switch between these kinds of techniques wouldn't be possible.

In reality, it's probably too niche of a feature for most people.


----------



## Trash Panda

I’m afraid to say for those still hoping for Q1 2021, you might want to change your expectations.


----------



## FireGS

_rip my hope_


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> I’m afraid to say for those still hoping for Q1 2021, you might want to change your expectations.


We already know that it will not be available in Q1 2021, Aaron himself told that to us a few pages ago. Plus he changed the faq about the strings from Q1 to "...are actually in development...".

Is there something new I missed?


----------



## Jish

DANIELE said:


> We already know that it will not be available in Q1 2021, Aaron himself told that to us a few pages ago. Plus he changed the faq about the strings from Q1 to "...are actually in development...".
> 
> Is there something new I missed?


Nah, don't think so atleast. IMO it would be a bid old Space Jam _Swoosh_ if it landed Pre Q4!


----------



## sctaylorcan

Jish said:


> Nah, don't think so atleast. IMO it would be a bid old Space Jam _Swoosh_ if it landed Pre Q4!


Now I have to finally watch Space Jam so I will recognize the sound of AVIS landing


----------



## Trash Panda

DANIELE said:


> We already know that it will not be available in Q1 2021, Aaron himself told that to us a few pages ago. Plus he changed the faq about the strings from Q1 to "...are actually in development...".
> 
> Is there something new I missed?


Apparently I missed it.


----------



## Jamus

Obviously AV wakes up every morning struck with brilliant new ideas and solutions. No doubt IS will be the real deal 🤘 The demand for certain features might be a contributing factor to these delays 😅


----------



## I like music

Any comment @aaronventure?

Other than +1 month hehe


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> Apparently I missed it.


Here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-4768009



It was a very sad day.


----------



## xenos

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I've been trying to recreate one of my favourite tracks from Don Davis' Jurassic Park 3. I love how expressive the horns can get. It's taking longer to sculpt, but I can get super specific.



It looks like i can`t acces into this track anymore . Could You be so kind and try to upload again ? Im very curious , it sounds . Thanks


----------



## Luka

I'm surprised they will be cheaper than the brass


----------



## DANIELE

Luka said:


> I'm surprised they will be cheaper than the brass


It is because the brass are made of gold and the strings are made of wood.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

xenos said:


> It looks like i can`t acces into this track anymore . Could You be so kind and try to upload again ? Im very curious , it sounds . Thanks


sorry about that i keep forgetting i have it on vi control, lol


----------



## Luka

I get Infinite Series ads on Facebook and Instagram now and every time it reminds me how excited I am about Infinite Strings. Can't wait!!!


----------



## shawnsingh

DANIELE said:


> It is because the brass are made of gold and the strings are made of wood.


Wait... isn't brass made of brass?


----------



## DANIELE

shawnsingh said:


> Wait... isn't brass made of brass?


No no, they are made of gold, pure gold!


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Wait... isn't brass made of brass?


I think French horns are made of wood which is cheap, and wind, which is free.


----------



## Mikro93

I don't currently own any Infinite library, but every time I write something with my libraries and have to use keyswitches, I come back to this thread and the demos... And sometimes, the tone isn't completely convincing to me, but other times, I feel like it's just perfect on every level.

I've been listening to more orchestral stuff recently than I ever have before, John Williams, Joe Hisaishi, Rimsky-Korsakov, etc. And the expressivity permitted by actual musicians is often not allowed by traditional sample libraries, but with IB and IW... I wonder. Isn't it interesting how our ear can change?


----------



## Woodie1972

I know what you mean and for me the tone of the AV libraries is the difficult part too, like you mention as well. I love the way the instruments respond to playback, but since I'm a mediocre keyboard player at best, most of the time I find myself entering notes with the pencil (Cubase) or with step input (Cubase and Dorico), creating a piano score which I orchestrate then. 
Of course the best way to get the best results is playing every instrument live in Cubase, but there again my not so good piano skills are a downside to that. Take piano lessons would be great, but I already study composition at the moment, next to my daily job and having a family, so that's not an option, at least for now. 
Brings me back to the use of the AV libraries: orchestration of a piano score gives other options and for me all the options and the tone of the VSL libraries give me the best results. Also because the AV libraries respond to velocity and Dorico automatically changes the velocity of the i notes to 100, you can imagine all the post editing there has to be done. I've asked why this is at the Steinberg forum, but there's not really an explanation for it. 
Anyway, I love the design and idea behind the AV libraries, but since I do use them in the 'old fashioned' way, mainly in Dorico, there is not much advantage for me, so I prefer the quality of the tone. 
And yes, I've tried EQ-ing the instruments, especially trombones and horns, but this didn't bring that much improvement, so for now I stick with my VSL libraries.


----------



## Jackdnp121

Hey guys , not sure if any one have asked this question yet 🙂
but is there any tips on playing slow lyrical solo line ? ( solo trumpet ) 

the sustain seems to be have unnatural high frequency ( phasing kind sound ? ) that bothers me alot 

and if any one have tried to put them in mir pro ? ive got a bunch of VSL library ... so .... make sense to try to put them together 

thanks all !

Jack


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Anybody else get TONS of hanging notes with Infinite Brass via VEP? It's like non-stop for me. It's the _only _library I own that this happens with in a perpetual way on every other play through. If I didn't love the sound and ease of programming I would just never use it at this point.


----------



## shawnsingh

Jackdnp121 said:


> Hey guys , not sure if any one have asked this question yet 🙂
> but is there any tips on playing slow lyrical solo line ? ( solo trumpet )
> 
> the sustain seems to be have unnatural high frequency ( phasing kind sound ? ) that bothers me alot
> 
> and if any one have tried to put them in mir pro ? ive got a bunch of VSL library ... so .... make sense to try to put them together
> 
> thanks all !
> 
> Jack


What dynamics cc level are you usually at? Staying below some level (maybe 100?) May avoid some brightness that is usually only associated with playing cuivre.

Other tips for slow lyrical line - definitely use controls for vibrato rate and depth. Depth is more obvious as a necessary control, but rate needs to be varied a bit too, in order to avoid a weirdly consistent vibrato. This I found out from my own lyrical trumpet attempt and great feedback from this thread.


----------



## Jackdnp121

shawnsingh said:


> What dynamics cc level are you usually at? Staying below some level (maybe 100?) May avoid some brightness that is usually only associated with playing cuivre.
> 
> Other tips for slow lyrical line - definitely use controls for vibrato rate and depth. Depth is more obvious as a necessary control, but rate needs to be varied a bit too, in order to avoid a weirdly consistent vibrato. This I found out from my own lyrical trumpet attempt and great feedback from this thread.


Hey thanks for reply !

Yeah I did kept my dynamics in the mid high area 

I figured it might be the vibrato rate and depth , need to practice more I guess 

don’t think I’ll be able to get rid of the occasion phasing high frequency. So I think I’ll just keep it down for now.

however the multi trumpet patches sounded great !


----------



## DANIELE

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Anybody else get TONS of hanging notes with Infinite Brass via VEP? It's like non-stop for me. It's the _only _library I own that this happens with in a perpetual way on every other play through. If I didn't love the sound and ease of programming I would just never use it at this point.


I don't know if it could be the cause but look if you have humanization enabled on every instrument, sometimes it could cause that behavior.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

DANIELE said:


> I don't know if it could be the cause but look if you have humanization enabled on every instrument, sometimes it could cause that behavior.


i'll definitely check that out, thanks for the tip


----------



## Loïc D

Woodie1972 said:


> I know what you mean and for me the tone of the AV libraries is the difficult part too, like you mention as well. I love the way the instruments respond to playback, but since I'm a mediocre keyboard player at best, most of the time I find myself entering notes with the pencil (Cubase) or with step input (Cubase and Dorico), creating a piano score which I orchestrate then.
> Of course the best way to get the best results is playing every instrument live in Cubase, but there again my not so good piano skills are a downside to that. Take piano lessons would be great, but I already study composition at the moment, next to my daily job and having a family, so that's not an option, at least for now.
> Brings me back to the use of the AV libraries: orchestration of a piano score gives other options and for me all the options and the tone of the VSL libraries give me the best results. Also because the AV libraries respond to velocity and Dorico automatically changes the velocity of the i notes to 100, you can imagine all the post editing there has to be done. I've asked why this is at the Steinberg forum, but there's not really an explanation for it.
> Anyway, I love the design and idea behind the AV libraries, but since I do use them in the 'old fashioned' way, mainly in Dorico, there is not much advantage for me, so I prefer the quality of the tone.
> And yes, I've tried EQ-ing the instruments, especially trombones and horns, but this didn't bring that much improvement, so for now I stick with my VSL libraries.


I would definitely advise against this method. Did you try to slow the tempo down so that it becomes manageable to play it.
Since the performance is not embedded in the sample, unlike most libraries, AV needs a lot of life to sound right. Velocities, note length play a huge role, so as modulation and vibrato. Add key noise automation and vibrato speed changes and it will drastically change the rendering in a good way.

Don’t copy paste parts from an instrument to another without doing changes in timing, velocity and length. Even with tiny changes the ensemble will sound far better.

The key for a good AV part is movement.
Since it totally fits my workflow, I’m very happy with this library (I own WW only, saving for Brass).


----------



## Supremo

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Anybody else get TONS of hanging notes with Infinite Brass via VEP? It's like non-stop for me. It's the _only _library I own that this happens with in a perpetual way on every other play through. If I didn't love the sound and ease of programming I would just never use it at this point.


That's what I also reported here some time ago. Nothing helps to resolve that issue, even when the humanization is disabled.


----------



## DivingInSpace

Supremo said:


> That's what I also reported here some time ago. Nothing helps to resolve that issue, even when the humanization is disabled.


I am getting hanging notes when stopping playback in Logic too. It is kind of a pain tbh


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Supremo said:


> That's what I also reported here some time ago. Nothing helps to resolve that issue, even when the humanization is disabled.


yep, I actually had it turned off on all of them already, so no dice. 

Yo Aaron! Love your instruments my dude but holy hell if you've got any suggestions here, I have to bounce down parts just to get any work done and it's really throwing a wrench in my workflow!


----------



## aaronventure

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Anybody else get TONS of hanging notes with Infinite Brass via VEP? It's like non-stop for me. It's the _only _library I own that this happens with in a perpetual way on every other play through. If I didn't love the sound and ease of programming I would just never use it at this point.


Does it happen during playback or only on playback stop? If it happens during playback, try disabling Humanize as it only moves note-ons and not note-offs (otherwise it becomes very clunky), so if you have very short notes, your note-off can be registered before the corresponding note-on and the note, when it plays, is left hanging.

If it happens on playback stop, Brass 1.6 and the next Woodwinds update will have improved note-off handling for these situations.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

aaronventure said:


> Does it happen during playback or only on playback stop? If it happens during playback, try disabling Humanize as it only moves note-ons and not note-offs (otherwise it becomes very clunky), so if you have very short notes, your note-off can be registered before the corresponding note-on and the note, when it plays, is left hanging.
> 
> If it happens on playback stop, Brass 1.6 and the next Woodwinds update will have improved note-off handling for these situations.


It's kind of both, but mostly on stop. Ok great to know! Looking forward to it man.


----------



## DANIELE

Sorry to hear that you have this problem, I had some note hanging problem but disabling humanization solved the issue.


----------



## Jackdnp121

same over here, both disable/lower humanisation helped mine hanging note. Cheers


----------



## I like music

Damn. We ignoring the fact that he's still producing updates to the Brass and Woods? Can't wait! Any ETAs?

PS hope you get your note hanging problems sorted!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Damn. We ignoring the fact that he's still producing updates to the Brass and Woods? Can't wait! Any ETAs?
> 
> PS hope you get your note hanging problems sorted!


Well actually I hope that he keeps working on the strings and after the first release he put out those updates. Unless the updates are only bug fixing ones and require not so much time to be completed, but we know Aaron and every update is a major one.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Well actually I hope that he keeps working on the strings and after the first release he put out those updates. Unless the updates are only bug fixing ones and require not so much time to be completed, but we know Aaron and every update is a major one.


Actually I now remember that the update for brass at least had some tone improvements planned for lower dynamics in trumpet perhaps and some changes to bones. So I'm very much keen on seeing what happens.

And of course, then the strings!


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> Actually I now remember that the update for brass at least had some tone improvements planned for lower dynamics in trumpet perhaps and some changes to bones. So I'm very much keen on seeing what happens.
> 
> And of course, then the strings!


I remember that too. But maybe they still are little improvements that don't require a lot of work, I'm talking about big things like renewing some instrument from scratch or maybe adding some new intruments.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I'm so excited to hear the new Trombone tone updates


----------



## vicontrolu

I feel almost bad for asking but..has there been any news on the ETA for the Brass update?


----------



## Conor

Last night I had a dream that the Infinite Brass + Woodwinds bundle was on sale, for $599 instead of $699. It felt so real.

Maybe I should just buy it.

Definitely I should stop browsing VI-C before bed.


----------



## Jamus

Conor Brace Music said:


> Last night I had a dream that the Infinite Brass + Woodwinds bundle was on sale, for $599 instead of $699. It felt so real.
> 
> Maybe I should just buy it.
> 
> Definitely I should stop browsing VI-C before bed.


Patience! The IS+IB+IW bundle will surely be a steal 😉

Are we allowed to call it Infinite Orchestra at that point, or do we need the percussion before it qualifies? 🤔


----------



## DANIELE

Conor Brace Music said:


> Last night I had a dream that the Infinite Brass + Woodwinds bundle was on sale, for $599 instead of $699. It felt so real.
> 
> Maybe I should just buy it.
> 
> Definitely I should stop browsing VI-C before bed.


Well I often dream about having a motorcycle, then I wake up and I still thinking about it, then, after some minutes I realize that it was only a dream and the sadness pervades me. I feel you...



Jamus said:


> Patience! The IS+IB+IW bundle will surely be a steal 😉
> 
> Are we allowed to call it Infinite Orchestra at that point, or do we need the percussion before it qualifies? 🤔


Well, only Aaron could answer to this question, I think at this point we should wait for IP to call it Infinite Orchestra even if all the instruments (IW+IB+IS) already do the biggest part.


----------



## Mikro93

Could someone who owns the library tell me a bit about the attacks in IW? In particular, how aggressive can they be at maximum velocity (when in velocity mode)?


----------



## decredis

Jamus said:


> Patience! The IS+IB+IW bundle will surely be a steal 😉
> 
> Are we allowed to call it Infinite Orchestra at that point, or do we need the percussion before it qualifies? 🤔


I don't see why not... I feel that a piece that uses strings, winds, and brass would seem like a full orchestral (or chamber-orchestral, depending on size) piece, percussion or no percussion.


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

Conor Brace Music said:


> Last night I had a dream that the Infinite Brass + Woodwinds bundle was on sale, for $599 instead of $699. It felt so real.
> 
> Maybe I should just buy it.
> 
> Definitely I should stop browsing VI-C before bed.


I'm pretty sure if you leave an item in your cart but don't buy it, you'll get an email for a discount code after a couple days if you sign up for the email newsletter list first


----------



## Ziffles

Mikro93 said:


> Could someone who owns the library tell me a bit about the attacks in IW? In particular, how aggressive can they be at maximum velocity (when in velocity mode)?


Well IW doesn't have the overblowing effects like SWAM winds, so they hit a bit of a ceiling in that regard. They can still be nice and punchy, though.


----------



## Raab

Just added IW to IB. Easter holidays can come to create a new template - again. 👌

How do you guys use the mic mixer or preset mixes?

I just found that most were to dry to my liking and lots of brass instruments now only got the ambient mics activated or some slight amount of main mics. Am I going insane over mixing?

Trying to set IB & IW right in depth with some VSL/Audio Imperia strings and various percussion is harder than I thought, while the AV instruments are totally fine with just each other. Any hot tips on that?


----------



## Jamus

Raab said:


> Just added IW to IB. Easter holidays can come to create a new template - again. 👌
> 
> How do you guys use the mic mixer or preset mixes?
> 
> I just found that most were to dry to my liking and lots of brass instruments now only got the ambient mics activated or some slight amount of main mics. Am I going insane over mixing?
> 
> Trying to set IB & IW right in depth with some VSL/Audio Imperia strings and various percussion is harder than I thought, while the AV instruments are totally fine with just each other. Any hot tips on that?


Call me crazy but I feel that Infinite can benefit from some EQ trickery to create distance. Sort of a low shelf cut from the mids down can push them further back. The low end seems to keep an instrument up close🤘


----------



## shawnsingh

Raab said:


> Just added IW to IB. Easter holidays can come to create a new template - again. 👌
> 
> How do you guys use the mic mixer or preset mixes?
> 
> I just found that most were to dry to my liking and lots of brass instruments now only got the ambient mics activated or some slight amount of main mics. Am I going insane over mixing?
> 
> Trying to set IB & IW right in depth with some VSL/Audio Imperia strings and various percussion is harder than I thought, while the AV instruments are totally fine with just each other. Any hot tips on that?





Jamus said:


> Call me crazy but I feel that Infinite can benefit from some EQ trickery to create distance. Sort of a low shelf cut from the mids down can push them further back. The low end seems to keep an instrument up close🤘


Yes, I totally agree the solid low end of the sound makes it feel close, and I do prefer to reduce that. But I don't mind that it is the default tone provided, eq works fine to adjust it.

For my taste, a gradual rolloff rather than a shelf works better. "Tilt", if your EQ has it, or extremely shallow 3db/octave if your EQ has it, otherwise just one or two broad wide EQ bands that have a similar gradual rolloff effect.

With that, I have really fallen in love with sound of the Bersa venue. as of 1.5, I do feel it misses a little bit of spatial precision, I think that could be fixed if I felt strongly about it by routing a dry mix and positioned that with delay panning. But I haven't tried that yet, it's definitely a perfectionist thing that maybe doesn't matter that much in a full orchestration.

My setup is oriented around mic mix 2, to save cpu, but for more varied tone per individual instrument, it helps to have some instruments with different mic mixes and transpose settings, too. But that might not help if you're trying to mix it to match your other libraries, in that case I think an additional neutral reverb could help. So, EQ to get the tone closer, and the additional reverb to better match the sense of space. For me, adding EWQL spaces, hollywood scoring stage FR, added enough sense of space to work well with OT libraries that I liked to use, too.


----------



## Raab

Oh great guys, thanks for the tips.
Actually, I never thought about the low end for depth placement. I usually tried to roll off the high end to make the instruments seem farther in the back of the room.

I’m currently using Seventh Heaven to place everything in the same room. Although I love the sound of it, it doesn’t seem to work for me for placement. I’ve now pushed it back and am just using it for a master „glue“ reverb at the end.


----------



## Woodie1972

Recently I did an experiment with the brass and found out that the Bersia hall with mic mix 3 works pretty nice with the Lexicon LXPlate large room, first option. There are five different options, but some others are too wet. This reverb is very neutral, which is what a good reverb should be in the first place IMO. 
Other people say reverbs from Exponential audio like R4 and Nimbus are great as well, but I don't have these, so can't comment on that.


----------



## Mikro93

ChickenAndARoll said:


> I'm pretty sure if you leave an item in your cart but don't buy it, you'll get an email for a discount code after a couple days if you sign up for the email newsletter list first


I'm doing that right now. So far, I just got a reminder  Honestly, if it works, I'd be happy, but also, I would find that strange given what I know of Aaron's sales habits  (which is once per year for birthdays/BF)


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

Mikro93 said:


> I'm doing that right now. So far, I just got a reminder  Honestly, if it works, I'd be happy, but also, I would find that strange given what I know of Aaron's sales habits  (which is once per year for birthdays/BF)


Yeah that happened to me too, first you get a reminder, then you might get another reminder if I remember correctly, then you'll get a discount.


----------



## morganwable

First post here, eagerly watching the Infinite series as I look to not expand, but actually shrink my library collection.

*Has anybody tried using IB and IW with Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings? *I keep listening to as many demos as I can find, and the more I hear, the more I'm convinced that upon buying the Infinite series, I will never need other, bulkier libraries again - but I have not heard any mockups that specifically use the above three libraries - at least not ones that don't also use traditional samples to sweeten the mix. I want to hear _just_ those three plus some percussion, as that (or just Infinite) is my preferred workflow in the coming months.

I'm very impatient (and indecisive), and I'm _somewhat _considering getting that (sample modeling strings) instead of waiting for Infinite Strings, but not if the three won't sound good together. I just wish we had a _rough_ time estimate now that the Q1 thing is out the window.  I was _really _banking on that...

Follow-up question - to owners of IB and IW, how often do you find yourself _needing _to break into a larger, articulation-based library for the finished track? For tone _or_ articulation reasons. How much is there that the Infinite series is currently widely known to not be able to handle? Follow-up follow-up question - if either of the two _do_ have any significant blind spots; what are they, what libraries have you successfuly used to cover for them, and how likely do you feel it is that they will be addressed in an update?


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

morganwable said:


> the more I hear, the more I'm convinced that upon buying the Infinite series, I will never need other, bulkier libraries again... how often do you find yourself _needing _to break into a larger, articulation-based library for the finished track? For tone _or_ articulation reasons.


personally i find myself needing to thicken IB up with CSB for bones and horns, just because they don't have that warm hyped hollywood sound i need for the kinds of things I write on and i try to avoid too much processing on those, but the low brass with some compression (and tiny bit of saturation) and they really fill that up. the trumpets sounds great, but again I just end up blending with CSB on staccatos pretty often. I still use CBS for tuba thump but yeah the cimbasso and bass/ctrabss bones in here really snap. idk why, the tenor trombones in here are just a bit wimpy. BUT it really depends on the context. these horns sound pretty great on williamsy stuff. 

i think this is generally agreed upon by people who do really great mockups that i've heard talk about it that there really isn't a single library that will do all things all the time, and there are a few reasons for that (like how they're recorded etc...), and its certainly something i've noticed for myself, that my mockups are way better when i'm not trying to make one library do all the work but am good at getting a few different libraries for an instrument to work well together (and i don't mean just caking them on top of each other). 

You could like mess with them on every project to get the sound you need but the cost basis for time vs money is something you have to decide for yourself and do you want to have a general template or several smaller templates with processing built in for that kind of style. just my .02


----------



## morganwable

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> there really isn't a single library that will do all things all the time


Yeah, definitely agreed. I guess it's less that I expect them to do everything, it's just that I'm expecting them to grant me a greater deal of freedom - the goal is simply to go through significantly less tweaking and layering than I'm doing now. But hey, the more I can get away with using these semi-modeled libraries for the final mix, the better. Even if I have to occasionally layer things for impact or clarity, I imagine it'll still be lightyears ahead of having to cobble together passages from dozens of articulations sourced from a hard drive full (literally full) of different libraries.

Seconding any and all praise for cinematic studio brass. I'd have loved CSB for the "repetition" shorts and the mutes alone, and will also likely use those even after incorporating IB into my work flow. I do wish the mutes were library-wide like the sordinos are for CSS. Another reason I'm looking at IB. Absolutely genius library, though, even more brilliant than CSS. In fact, I kinda dislike CSS. If it weren't for the delicious hollow sound of the violin 2 section when playing low notes, and the rebows, I would delete it from my hard drive altogether.

But I'm getting off topic. As it stands, my go-to template is Spitfire Symphonic for strings and woodwinds, and CSB for brass - the problem is that the above only gets me 60-75% of the way there. I have to dip into other libraries far too often for my liking. So the question at the core of this rambling train of thought is - disregarding percussion and specialty instruments, how far _can _you get with Infinite and samplemodeling? If I can get 90% of the way there (or more?) for most compositions, I'll be more than happy. Even 85% would be an improvement. Maybe not an immediate buy, but at least a Christmas thing. I don't know. I've gone on long enough.



> these horns sound pretty great on williamsy stuff.


The IB horns? If so, that is great to hear - Williams-esque is what I'm usually striving for. I've been told my music tends to sound like it was written in the 90s, and I take that as an invaluable compliment. I'd send you a recent mockup, but it wouldn't belong in this thread whatsoever (not infinite), and my current favorite is an incomplete cue that I actually plan on restarting from scratch. Unfortunately, the orchestral mockups I'm presently comfortable sharing publicly are mostly very old.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

morganwable said:


> I do wish the mutes were library-wide like the sordinos are for CSS. Another reason I'm looking at IB. Absolutely genius library, though, even more brilliant than CSS. In fact, I kinda dislike CSS. If it weren't for the delicious hollow sound of the violin 2 section when playing low notes, and the rebows, I would delete it from my hard drive altogether.


thing is, the mutes on CSS aren't real it's simulated, so I think for their brass to keep the cost down they only did a few. 

the mutes are one of the areas that make IB worthwhile IMO

I like CSS, I think it takes more finagling than people are willing to admit (it's a lot of people's workhorse) but I also use it all the time because it's the favorite library for bigger strings for the person I write for (generally). I just got MSS and it's quickly become my workhorse, but I still layer CSS. The staccatos in CSS are for sure one of the best, just sit down and play the polychord from Augurs of Spring on CSS staccatos and tell me it doesn't sound great.


----------



## DANIELE

morganwable said:


> First post here, eagerly watching the Infinite series as I look to not expand, but actually shrink my library collection.
> 
> *Has anybody tried using IB and IW with Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings? *I keep listening to as many demos as I can find, and the more I hear, the more I'm convinced that upon buying the Infinite series, I will never need other, bulkier libraries again - but I have not heard any mockups that specifically use the above three libraries - at least not ones that don't also use traditional samples to sweeten the mix. I want to hear _just_ those three plus some percussion, as that (or just Infinite) is my preferred workflow in the coming months.
> 
> I'm very impatient (and indecisive), and I'm _somewhat _considering getting that (sample modeling strings) instead of waiting for Infinite Strings, but not if the three won't sound good together. I just wish we had a _rough_ time estimate now that the Q1 thing is out the window.  I was _really _banking on that...
> 
> Follow-up question - to owners of IB and IW, how often do you find yourself _needing _to break into a larger, articulation-based library for the finished track? For tone _or_ articulation reasons. How much is there that the Infinite series is currently widely known to not be able to handle? Follow-up follow-up question - if either of the two _do_ have any significant blind spots; what are they, what libraries have you successfuly used to cover for them, and how likely do you feel it is that they will be addressed in an update?


You're welcome 











All IB + IW + SMS.

I don't want to use other libraries anymore, I bought the last AM Strings V3 and I'll buy IS as I'll buy other AM products but for my future playability is my muse.

I hope it helps.


----------



## Maarten

DANIELE said:


> You're welcome
> 
> <snip>
> 
> All IB + IW + SMS.
> 
> I don't want to use other libraries anymore, I bought the last AM Strings V3 and I'll buy IS as I'll buy other AM products but for my future playability is my muse.
> 
> I hope it helps.


Yes it does. Incredible musical mock-ups and exactly what I was hoping for.
I already knew that IB & IW where perfectly suited for classical music mock-ups - the briljant AV-intro of the Rite of Spring for example, but they work also in your epic mock-ups. Also I didn't know that the SMS ensembles were this good. Playability is also key for me, I have also the latest AM strings V3, do you think IB + IW + SMS are just as playable?


----------



## DANIELE

Maarten said:


> Yes it does. Incredible musical mock-ups and exactly what I was hoping for.
> I already knew that IB & IW where perfectly suited for classical music mock-ups - the briljant AV-intro of the Rite of Spring for example, but they work also in your epic mock-ups. Also I didn't know that the SMS ensembles were this good. Playability is also key for me, I have also the latest AM strings V3, do you think IB + IW + SMS are just as playable?


I think they are very very playable, not as much as AM products maybe (just beacuse they are pure modeled instruments and you have more control over them) but I enjoy so much to use them that I don't feel limited anymore, I mean, I managed to do a horns rip if you listen to the last track (the one with the video), there are things that you cannot do for sure but I still have to find them and as I said all the times:

1) Aaron keeps upgrading his libraries by fixing things, adding new functions, adding instruments and so on so maybe you cannot do a thing now but maybe you will in the future;
2) Also SM is working on a new update for SMS and I feel they really care about this so I'm confident about what is coming;
3) Those instruments are unmatched in the virtual instruments world, the amount of control and playability you have is the core of the libraries.

I don't layer them with "old" libraries because I want to go deep in those instruments, they have a lot of options and settings plus a lot of controls available. It's almost like to have a real intruments, you have to learn how play it to make it sound better, you have to train yourself to use it, it is not limited by devs decisions or articulations but you can go very far with them.

I love that technology and I hope it will develop further in the future, this is why I love to support those developers and for me it is often an insta-buy, I still have to find one of these libraries that for me doesn't worth it.


----------



## Maarten

DANIELE said:


> I think they are very very playable, not as much as AM products maybe (just beacuse they are pure modeled instruments and you have more control over them) but I enjoy so much to use them that I don't feel limited anymore, I mean, I managed to do a horns rip if you listen to the last track (the one with the video), there are things that you cannot do for sure but I still have to find them and as I said all the times:
> 
> 1) Aaron keeps upgrading his libraries by fixing things, adding new functions, adding instruments and so on so maybe you cannot do a thing now but maybe you will in the future;
> 2) Also SM is working on a new update for SMS and I feel they really care about this so I'm confident about what is coming;
> 3) Those instruments are unmatched in the virtual instruments world, the amount of control and playability you have is the core of the libraries.
> 
> I don't layer them with "old" libraries because I want to go deep in those instruments, they have a lot of options and settings plus a lot of controls available. It's almost like to have a real intruments, you have to learn how play it to make it sound better, you have to train yourself to use it, it is not limited by devs decisions or articulations but you can go very far with them.
> 
> I love that technology and I hope it will develop further in the future, this is why I love to support those developers and for me it is often an insta-buy, I still have to find one of these libraries that for me doesn't worth it.


Thank you for your insightful remarks. I'll agree that you have to invest a lot of time into these (partially) modeled instruments. But it's worth it, the flexibility seems unsurpassed. My experience with AM is the same, you learn the best way to play them and everytime you discover something new. 

The 'classic' way of sampling seems dead to me, except maybe for 'choirs' & vocals & specialized articulations & rare instruments....

But! It also depends if you're more of a player or a constructor of course. And some people prefer the sound of samples above the modeled sounds.


----------



## Tfis

Hanging notes with ww saxes is a little bit annoying...


----------



## John R Wilson

DANIELE said:


> I think they are very very playable, not as much as AM products maybe (just beacuse they are pure modeled instruments and you have more control over them) but I enjoy so much to use them that I don't feel limited anymore, I mean, I managed to do a horns rip if you listen to the last track (the one with the video), there are things that you cannot do for sure but I still have to find them and as I said all the times:
> 
> 1) Aaron keeps upgrading his libraries by fixing things, adding new functions, adding instruments and so on so maybe you cannot do a thing now but maybe you will in the future;
> 2) Also SM is working on a new update for SMS and I feel they really care about this so I'm confident about what is coming;
> 3) Those instruments are unmatched in the virtual instruments world, the amount of control and playability you have is the core of the libraries.
> 
> I don't layer them with "old" libraries because I want to go deep in those instruments, they have a lot of options and settings plus a lot of controls available. It's almost like to have a real intruments, you have to learn how play it to make it sound better, you have to train yourself to use it, it is not limited by devs decisions or articulations but you can go very far with them.
> 
> I love that technology and I hope it will develop further in the future, this is why I love to support those developers and for me it is often an insta-buy, I still have to find one of these libraries that for me doesn't worth it.


I feel similar regarding Aaron Ventures libraries and like to support those developers that are moving towards playable and expressive libraries. Aaron Ventures Infinite Strings will be an instant purchase for me! 

I have considered Sample modelling strings in the past but have been a little unsure on them. Sounds brilliant in your pieces but it is quite expensive, plus Infinite strings might be due for release soon.


----------



## PerryD

I am curious about IS as well. I REALLY love the playability & sound of SM S&ES. They are apparently working on another update. Ha! I recently got an ASM Hydrasynth. The first thing I recorded as an experiment was a bit over the top...then I added IB Horns & Trumpets. They held their own in an already over-saturated mix.


----------



## sctaylorcan

PerryD said:


> I am curious about IS as well. I REALLY love the playability & sound of SM S&ES. They are apparently working on another update. Ha! I recently got an ASM Hydrasynth. The first thing I recorded as an experiment was a bit over the top...then I added IB Horns & Trumpets. They held their own in an already over-saturated mix.



I love the close encounters nod at the end :D 
I'm in the same boat as some earlier posters... I've been resisting buying any strings in anticipation of IS, and made it to Q1 2021, but SM strings is calling my name!

Is there a post or email or something describing the SM update that they might be working on? Thx!


----------



## PerryD

sctaylorcan said:


> I love the close encounters nod at the end :D
> I'm in the same boat as some earlier posters... I've been resisting buying any strings in anticipation of IS, and made it to Q1 2021, but SM strings is calling my name!
> 
> Is there a post or email or something describing the SM update that they might be working on? Thx!


Thanks, I had fun. I don't want to hijack Aaron's thread...I had contacted SM support and they mentioned a significant free update was on the way. They were tight lipped about any details though. I am a fan of any library that works well with a breath controller. AV and SM are at the top of my list.


----------



## sctaylorcan

PerryD said:


> Thanks, I had fun. I don't want to hijack Aaron's thread...I had contacted SM support and they mentioned a significant free update was on the way. They were tight lipped about any details though. I am a fan of any library that works well with a breath controller. AV and SM are at the top of my list.


Thx ... I will def buy IS when it's out. I enjoy real time playing with my Leap. Go go IS !


----------



## DANIELE

John R Wilson said:


> I feel similar regarding Aaron Ventures libraries and like to support those developers that are moving towards playable and expressive libraries. Aaron Ventures Infinite Strings will be an instant purchase for me!
> 
> I have considered Sample modelling strings in the past but have been a little unsure on them. Sounds brilliant in your pieces but it is quite expensive, plus Infinite strings might be due for release soon.


I feel like SMS and IS will be two different products, I mean, both of them are strings libraries but everyone of them will have his own shining points. I'll put both of them in my template and I'll match them in my space just to give more thickness to my strings section.

I don't think we will see IS so soon, I think it will be out in 2021 but maybe summer or even fall. The end of this year will be epic anyway, AM strings ensemble, IS and the new update of SMS (well I hope to see it earlier this year). Oh I almost forgot AM woodwinds update this summer.

Great year for these libraries, I hope the world will not end in 2021.


----------



## John R Wilson

DANIELE said:


> I feel like SMS and IS will be two different products, I mean, both of them are strings libraries but everyone of them will have his own shining points. I'll put both of them in my template and I'll match them in my space just to give more thickness to my strings section.
> 
> I don't think we will see IS so soon, I think it will be out in 2021 but maybe summer or even fall. The end of this year will be epic anyway, AM strings ensemble, IS and the new update of SMS (well I hope to see it earlier this year). Oh I almost forgot AM woodwinds update this summer.
> 
> Great year for these libraries, I hope the world will not end in 2021.


Yeah I agree, I have heard some really good things from SMB and SMS! If I knew IS was going to be out later in 2021 then I would be more inclined to pick up SMS while waiting for IS.


----------



## morganwable

sctaylorcan said:


> I love the close encounters nod at the end :D
> I'm in the same boat as some earlier posters... I've been resisting buying any strings in anticipation of IS, and made it to Q1 2021, but SM strings is calling my name!
> 
> Is there a post or email or something describing the SM update that they might be working on? Thx!


Re: the mockup... wow. The IB horns and bones are just BUTTERY smooth every time, even in non-traditional stuff like this. I know a lot of people have tone complaints but honestly, I find myself _prefering_ the tone of the infinite series to a lot of traditional libraries, even workhorse mainstays. Phenomenal stuff.

And... I'm in the same boat. I held out until the end of March but now the constant trickle of linear time has resumed and we're careening into May without so much as a release _quarter_. The only thing keeping me patient enough to wait at this point is the fear that, when it _does_ come out, IS might blow SMS out of the water to the degree that I'll regret buying the latter altogether. But...



DANIELE said:


> I'll put both of them in my template and I'll match them in my space just to give more thickness to my strings section.


This is keeping my spirits up a little. I guess it's not just possible, but highly likely that I will eventually end up getting _both_ of these libraries, and I won't end up regretting buying either. I suppose that would be the best outcome after all.

...Which, unfortunately, means that I'll probably be buying SMS some time this month... and should Infinite Strings miraculously be released Q2, I'll have to wait before I can afford it as well... and I'll probably end up with a slight, temporary amount of buyer's remorse. For not having waited. But I'll live. 

I have to take into consideration the fact that I would also like to add the SWAM V3 collection as well as the rest of the Infinite and Sample Modeling lines to my template eventually, too. What would the total cost of that end up being? Probably just shy of $3k? Just over? Sounds like a lot, but with the insane amount of deep sampled libraries it would take to match the sheer, insane amount of flexibility having those three collections will grant me... not to mention the storage space... I suppose it'll be well worth it in the long run.

With my luck, though, I'll end up buying all of the above only to discover a fourth, even more amazing semi-modeled library is just around the corner. Why do I even _have_ a savings account at this point?

Anyway, @DANIELE - those mockups you tagged me in are *incredible*. The Star Wars one in particular. If I were in the mood to squeeze juice out of a stone, could pinpoint a few things I would have (maybe) done differently in the mix... and a few select moments I personally would have layered in some traditional shorts/textures for impact, but like, I'm utterly blown away. I could not dream of getting that seamless of a sound using traditional xfade + articulation patches alone. 

Side note - has anybody seen this person (

_ All for Unknown, Unknown for All_ )
around VI-Control? They don't seem very well known yet, but their AV mockups on Youtube have been nothing short of jaw-dropping as well.


I'm going to have to start getting paid music work if I'm going to keep up with all of this hype. I'm also going to have to talk to my therapist about developing more patience.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Tfis said:


> Hanging notes with ww saxes is a little bit annoying...


hanging notes annoying with all of them... haha

but Aaron says it's getting fixed!


----------



## Kent

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> hanging notes annoying with all of them... haha
> 
> but Aaron says it's getting fixed!


I only experience a lot of hangs with the Humanization feature engaged. Are you running that?


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

kmaster said:


> I only experience a lot of hangs with the Humanization feature engaged. Are you running that?


heh we actually just went over this shpiel on the last page (or two pages ago?), unfortunately that is not the culprit :/

but i'm not really complaining, was only responding to pass along the response from Aaron that he is aware of the issue and is hoping a fix in 1.6 takes care of it


----------



## DANIELE

morganwable said:


> ...Which, unfortunately, means that I'll probably be buying SMS some time this month... and should Infinite Strings miraculously be released Q2, I'll have to wait before I can afford it as well... and I'll probably end up with a slight, temporary amount of buyer's remorse. For not having waited. But I'll live.


Well you could ask Aaron directly if he has an idea (and if he could share it) about the release date. Usually if he can help you about this he does. Maybe he is still in mid development and he doesn't know about a precise release date and he doesn't give you anyway but he could tell you a guessed date.

I'm waiting for the new SMS patch and for Aaron IS to came out to write at least other 3 tracks I have in mind so my inner musical fire is burning in an empty void right now, he needs to be fed or he will eat my mind!


----------



## Trash Panda

Don’t ask him about the release date or he’ll add +1 month!


----------



## doctoremmet

Hi Aaron, since I’m planning to use my savings so far to purchase 8dio Century Woodwinds stuff in april, I was just wondering... how’s IS coming along?


----------



## Woodie1972

Oh Dear, too late.....


----------



## doctoremmet

Woodie1972 said:


> Oh Dear, too late.....


Or I may have reverse-jinxed my 8dio purchase and IS drops this afternoon. There’s no telling when you start cross-jinxing stuff and wavefunctions start to collapse, what alternative multiverse we’ll enter really....


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## Akora

A question for anyone here who owns IB and IW - when the strings come out one day and you get the full bundle, would you think that these libraries could work as your main, dedicated strings/brass/woodwinds (not layering with other libraries) for cinematic and orchestral music?

I ask because I don't have any dedicated libraries yet and after finding out about the Infinite series, I feel like banking on getting the bundle when the strings come out. It will however cost all savings I have so far, so I will be "stuck" with this choice for a long time afterwards.


----------



## I like music

Kenneth Malm said:


> A question for anyone here who owns IB and IW - when the strings come out one day and you get the full bundle, would you think that these libraries could work as your main, dedicated strings/brass/woodwinds (not layering with other libraries) for cinematic and orchestral music?
> 
> I ask because I don't have any dedicated libraries yet and after finding out about the Infinite series, I feel like banking on getting the bundle when the strings come out. It will however cost all savings I have so far, so I will be "stuck" with this choice for a long time afterwards.


Personally, they already have. Strings remain to be seen. Maybe it's my ocd but I just want a clean template where the Brass and Woods can play most articulations. This allows me to do that. And I'm good with the tone. 

And this stuff is easy on the template size and resources.

As far as a single choice goes, you're likelier to like it than not.

Can I ask, what kind of music do you write?


----------



## DANIELE

Kenneth Malm said:


> A question for anyone here who owns IB and IW - when the strings come out one day and you get the full bundle, would you think that these libraries could work as your main, dedicated strings/brass/woodwinds (not layering with other libraries) for cinematic and orchestral music?
> 
> I ask because I don't have any dedicated libraries yet and after finding out about the Infinite series, I feel like banking on getting the bundle when the strings come out. It will however cost all savings I have so far, so I will be "stuck" with this choice for a long time afterwards.


I don't want to post them again, look at the previous page and you will have my answer about this.


----------



## Markrs

Kenneth Malm said:


> A question for anyone here who owns IB and IW - when the strings come out one day and you get the full bundle, would you think that these libraries could work as your main, dedicated strings/brass/woodwinds (not layering with other libraries) for cinematic and orchestral music?
> 
> I ask because I don't have any dedicated libraries yet and after finding out about the Infinite series, I feel like banking on getting the bundle when the strings come out. It will however cost all savings I have so far, so I will be "stuck" with this choice for a long time afterwards.





DANIELE said:


> I don't want to post them again, look at the previous page and you will have my answer about this.


This is the post @DANIELE is refering to (just in case you weren't sure which one it was):

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-4801165

Some really amazing tracks and really helps show off what the infinite series can do


----------



## Akora

I like music said:


> Personally, they already have. Strings remain to be seen. Maybe it's my ocd but I just want a clean template where the Brass and Woods can play most articulations. This allows me to do that. And I'm good with the tone.
> 
> And this stuff is easy on the template size and resources.
> 
> As far as a single choice goes, you're likelier to like it than not.
> 
> Can I ask, what kind of music do you write?


I feel the same way, I would rather have few but great libraries for each instrumentation, than a ton of different ones. The Infinity seems like a great combination of playablility, sound and price. I don't really write much yet since it's a hobby, mainly have free libraries. But I want to write film/game music and just orchestral in general. 




DANIELE said:


> I don't want to post them again, look at the previous page and you will have my answer about this.


Those tracks are amazing! I have had trouble finding anything using these instruments alone - I misread your post because I thought SMS was something you layered it with, until i realized it was the strings.


----------



## DANIELE

Kenneth Malm said:


> Those tracks are amazing! I have had trouble finding anything using these instruments alone - I misread your post because I thought SMS was something you layered it with, until i realized it was the strings.


Thank you, as I said many times I think the same way, I deleted all my other instruments from my template by keeping only these libraries the SM one and the AM ones because I can easily play all of them with a breath controller and I can also copy/paste every midi item from one instrument to another without having to mess with articulations etc...

This is why I forced myself to do the best with those libraries alone, and I still have a lot of room for improvement.


----------



## Composer 2021

How many mockups of the Infinities Series use the studio room? The Mozarteum hall sounds nice for a concert hall sound and sets this series apart from the rest. But obviously the studio sounds more cinematic. Thinking about getting these over Cinematic Studio series so I can mockup concept band music too.


----------



## shawnsingh

Composer 2021 said:


> How many mockups of the Infinities Series use the studio room? The Mozarteum hall sounds nice for a concert hall sound and sets this series apart from the rest. But obviously the studio sounds more cinematic. Thinking about getting these over Cinematic Studio series so I can mockup concept band music too.


I actually wanted to give Studio a deeper try, but I ran into one thing which made the Studio IRs less useful for my personal preference - the close mic isn't panned to match the tree or ambient position, and I didn't see any way to try panning the close mic sound directly from the instrument interface. So as a result, adding close mic seemed to reduce the stereo image significantly. What I really want is to use delay panning (i.e. a small delay between L and R channels) on close mic and combine that with the other mic positions.

There's a good chance I could learn more kontakt and do this under the hood, but I'm not familiar enough with kontakt yet, I hadn't yet bothered to spend the time to figure it out.

Bersa, by the way, feels really great to my ear. A really nice middle ground between dry and wet, which gives it almost a scoring stage quality. Good for many definitions of "cinematic". I still feel that something about the stereo image is slightly blurred compared to what you might hear on a real recording, but it's still wonderful enough that I spent hours noodling with the instruments just to enjoy the Bersa tone!


----------



## DANIELE

I personally use Studio only because I use an external plugin to put the instruments in the panorama.


----------



## Woodie1972

I use Bersia combined with a large room from LXPlate, not too wet, which gives a good sound IMO. Trombone sound is better that way (mic mix 4, which gives also room sound). Well, at least to my taste it sounds good.


----------



## aaronventure

shawnsingh said:


> the close mic isn't panned to match the tree or ambient position


Actually addressed in Brass 1.6! (the overall consistency of Close mic panning following the position)

Before y'all ask, it's 95% done.


----------



## Evans

aaronventure said:


> Before y'all ask, it's 95% done.


Strings is 95% done? Yessssss.


----------



## FireGS

Evans said:


> Strings is 95% done? Yessssss.


Pretty sure he meant Brass 1.6


----------



## Evans

FireGS said:


> Pretty sure he meant Brass 1.6


It was a joke.


----------



## doctoremmet

Evans said:


> It was a joke.


FireGS needs IS in his life - hitting F5 every 5 minutes for days ain’t funny


----------



## FireGS

Evans said:


> It was a joke.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> 95% done.


Are we at 96% yet?


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> Are we at 96% yet?


+1 month


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> +1 month


I'm well versed in the laws of +1 month. 

I know that they refer to strings only! Aaron has no let to stand on with this one!

Loop hole for the win.


----------



## Tralen

Hello,

I'm saving to buy this series (for a while now), I'm really impressed with the videos and overall concept.

How does the performance compare in relation to other modeled offerings (SWAM, Sample Modeling). I'm concerned mostly about CPU usage and latency, in particular for live performance.


----------



## doctoremmet

Hardly any latency, no real CPU strain. On my old i7 6700 laptop with 24 GB RAM. Not that memory is of any concern with these excellent libraries. So, very suitable for (live) performance on smaller more portable hardware.


----------



## Tralen

Thank you, that is really similar to my setup.


----------



## Trash Panda

CPU and RAM usage are fine until you start to stack up absurd amounts of instruments (think 24 horns absurd) or use custom mic mixes with loads of instruments. Even my Surface Book 2 holds up pretty well to it.


----------



## Composer 2021

How does the CPU and RAM usage on a full orchestra compare to a Spitfire library?


----------



## doctoremmet

Composer 2021 said:


> How does the CPU and RAM usage on a full orchestra compare to a Spitfire library?


We can only know as soon as IS drops. Make sure to stop by next wednesday!


----------



## Ziffles

It would be interesting to see the Infinite Series become a good benchmark for single computer orchestral sessions, since they're not really that hard disk dependent.


----------



## I like music

Ziffles said:


> It would be interesting to see the Infinite Series become a good benchmark for single computer orchestral sessions, since they're not really that hard disk dependent.


I have the libraries on a laptop for this very reason! The bang for buck is great!


----------



## AlainTH

for sure it is good for use on laptop. Simplicity and agility and lightness are the principal good reasons for me to use it as keyboardist, the tone is not good when used as solo but it permits a good 'realism touch' when layered with synths.


----------



## tritonely

doctoremmet said:


> We can only know as soon as IS drops. Make sure to stop by next wednesday!


Wow do you have more information when it releases DoctorEmmet?


----------



## doctoremmet

tritonely said:


> Wow do you have more information when it releases DoctorEmmet?


Nope. Just trolling. Sorry.


----------



## tritonely

doctoremmet said:


> Nope. Just trolling. Sorry.


Oh haha you got me! Really looking out for Infinite Strings


----------



## Woodie1972

I think you're not the only one, a lot of people are very much looking forward to get a copy to complete their playable orchestra.


----------



## tritonely

Woodie1972 said:


> I think you're not the only one, a lot of people are very much looking forward to get a copy to complete their playable orchestra.


Absolutely! Do you/anyone think we only get 1 string instrument per patch? I remember in a previous post we will get those detailed patches of Aaron Venture. Or also ensemble or per string instrument group patches? That's the only thing I find a pity about IW and IB, that if I want 4 trumpets, I have to load 4 patches (with 4 times the amount of CPU). I hope IS doesn't need to have 16 violins patches if I want a full V1 group.


----------



## tritonely

tritonely said:


> Absolutely! Do you/anyone think we only get 1 string instrument per patch? I remember in a previous post we will get those detailed patches of Aaron Venture. Or also ensemble or per string instrument group patches? That's the only thing I find a pity about IW and IB, that if I want 4 trumpets, I have to load 4 patches (with 4 times the amount of CPU). I hope IS doesn't need to have 16 violins patches if I want a full V1 group.


Or maybe I use IW and IB wrong all this time haha


----------



## Jonathan Moray

tritonely said:


> Absolutely! Do you/anyone think we only get 1 string instrument per patch? I remember in a previous post we will get those detailed patches of Aaron Venture. Or also ensemble or per string instrument group patches? That's the only thing I find a pity about IW and IB, that if I want 4 trumpets, I have to load 4 patches (with 4 times the amount of CPU). I hope IS doesn't need to have 16 violins patches if I want a full V1 group.


It's a bit more complex than that.

The way IS is said to work - keep in mind we know very little and won't know for sure until it's released - is that it will consist of single instruments. Looking at the way the Infinite Series is created, there's not really any way to sample a group of musicians (or even solo instruments in a wet room) and phase align them with satisfactory results. So even if we might get ensemble patches for IS there will still be X number of violins playing under the hood. It might help somewhat with CPU usage, but I doubt there will be a huge difference. The samples of the solo players won't be combined to create an ensemble patch, or at least, I highly doubt it because that would defeat much of the purpose of the Infinite Series.

The whole point is that each player (each instrument) has its own quirks and doesn't play perfectly with each other (i.e. timing and pitch) creating the sense of a group of players. If multiple players/instruments were combined and rendered into static ensemble patches/samples to reduce CPU load, you would lose A LOT of the sound created by that. It would be too homogeneous since all instruments would have the exact same pitch drift, vibrato, dynamics, and so on.


----------



## Woodie1972

Strings will have ensemble patches as well as solo. Aaron Venture will even add electric strings in a future update. 
If you go to his FAQ page, you can read in more detail about IS.


----------



## vicontrolu

It would be nuts to have so many individual patches Combined to create a 40 piece ensemble. 

Ibthink aaron will provide us with the approproiate patches. Trust him 100%!


----------



## tritonely

Ah oke thanks Jonathan Moray, Woodie1972 and vicontrolu, then I'm looking forward to it even more! Good luck Aaron Venture!


----------



## I like music

97%


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## Tfis

Big Band test WIP


----------



## Ivan M.

Tfis said:


> Big Band test WIP


Just needs more attack on the notes, crank up those velocities, also a breath controller if you're not using one already, and it will be perfect


----------



## ModalRealist

I finally pulled the trigger on Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds after spending a week wrestling with dodgy release trails on Kontakt libraries, and wishing VSL libraries were fully phase-aligned...

...well, holy crap, I am in love with this thing after one afternoon. Yes, misuse it and you get a Casio keyboard. That's true of _literally every VST, including all the synths!_ 

But beyond the playability, the other thing I am really blown away by is how many different _recording styles_ you can eke out of this thing. The following ten-minute noodle is mixed pretty much out-of-the-box. I slapped a tiny bit of tape compression on the master bus. Anything else added is noted in the track titles.



Aaron is a frickin' genius. Can't wait to add the strings and percussion in due course.


----------



## Ivan M.

Yep, modeled VIs are the future


----------



## I like music

98%


----------



## tabulius

doctoremmet said:


> Hardly any latency, no real CPU strain. On my old i7 6700 laptop with 24 GB RAM. Not that memory is of any concern with these excellent libraries. So, very suitable for (live) performance on smaller more portable hardware.


No real CPU strain? I have been struggling with maxing out my CPU since I got Infinite. Sure, they are relatively easy on CPU when speaking of an instrument or two, but when you start stacking up, it brings my desktop i7 6700K to its knees. Here is a screenshot where I tested the Infinite WW and Brass orchestra, no other instruments or plugins loaded. Bus and master fx disabled. With mixed mic 3 (Bersa) these instruments hover around 50% and with three mics 60-70%. I had to raise my buffer up to 512 to make the library more usable. Those numbers would be ok, but when I start adding strings, percussion, choir, synths etc. I start to have a really bad time. But I don't blame the Infinite series for this. I think I would just need a computer with more cores and power to get the full orchestra up and running. And with 128-256 buffer! I tried running the same test with 128 and the meter jumped to 100% red. Totally unusable with low buffer sizes for me at least.


----------



## doctoremmet

Sorry to hear that. For me the instruments are perfectly usable. I don’t tend to use a lot of instances though, so that may explain my different experience. Since the original question pertains to a live use case, I’d argue that Infinite instruments are very usable and do not really strain the CPU. But I’m curious to hear other people’s experiences too?


----------



## aaronventure

tabulius said:


> 128


128 buffer size is a tall order for that CPU given how many real-time convolution reverbs are running with a standard Infinite woodwind and brass ensemble, even with Mixed Mic. 3900X has no trouble running an entire IW + IB + other stuff template along with processing at 256 even with Mixed Mic off, but back on my old i5 4690 I had to bump it up to 1024 when mixing, and Mixed Mic had to be used. 

Honestly, I think 512 is still alright (also depending on your interface, but mostly it's fine). Even 1024 is manageable, but definitely takes a bit of getting used to.


----------



## Ziffles

tabulius said:


> No real CPU strain? I have been struggling with maxing out my CPU since I got Infinite. Sure, they are relatively easy on CPU when speaking of an instrument or two, but when you start stacking up, it brings my desktop i7 6700K to its knees. Here is a screenshot where I tested the Infinite WW and Brass orchestra, no other instruments or plugins loaded. Bus and master fx disabled. With mixed mic 3 (Bersa) these instruments hover around 50% and with three mics 60-70%. I had to raise my buffer up to 512 to make the library more usable. Those numbers would be ok, but when I start adding strings, percussion, choir, synths etc. I start to have a really bad time. But I don't blame the Infinite series for this. I think I would just need a computer with more cores and power to get the full orchestra up and running. And with 128-256 buffer! I tried running the same test with 128 and the meter jumped to 100% red. Totally unusable with low buffer sizes for me at least.


Yeah even my older 6-core i7 5930k has problems with a full load, so much that I have to sub IW/IB instruments out to my Vienna rig. Then again, both of our CPUs are completely trounced by even a mid level Ryzen 5 now, so I'm looking to upgrade.


----------



## Nullhertz

Just pulled the trigger for IB as well, after getting addicted to the IWW workflow. :D
Did a first test-sketch and I think the sound of IB blends surprisingly well with my other libs.

View attachment fanfare_04.mp3


----------



## Ziffles

I noticed that IB instruments don't always sound very good in mono and have a lot of phase cancelation issues, and I couldn't figure out why. I thought maybe it was the instrument's impulse reverbs doing it, but even after disabling them in kontakt, I was still having mono phasing issues with the raw instruments.

So I looked at the raw waveforms themselves in the sample directory. Oddly enough, a lot of these waveforms, even though technically they're properly stereo correlated for the most part, seem to lose a lot of upper frequency information when they're converted to mono, and thus are not very mono friendly. Rather than play the waveforms in here and destroy everyone's ears, I'll just show a raw IB Trumpet 1 playing an F scale as an example.

Here it is normally in the Bersa hall:








trumpet-BERSA-STEREO.mp3


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com




And Bersa mono:








trumpet-BERSA-MONO.mp3


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





You can already hear the phasing going on in mono, so here is the raw trumpet with no impulses on, in stereo (!!! VOLUME WARNING!!!!!):








trumpet-RAW-STEREO.mp3


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com




and mono:








trumpet-RAW-MONO.mp3


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





As you can hear, this trumpet sounds nice and full in stereo, but in mono it loses a lot of the high end, and what's left is kind of smeared and odd sounding, kind of like the player is waving their hand around in front of the bell or something. It gets a very pronounced dip in mono around 7k, especially when played loudly, and on certain notes.

True, some of this is inevitable when summing to mono, but this is usually minimized by careful recording and mixing. This explains why IB instruments don't always "sit well" in mono. Hopefully this can be fixed, because otherwise I absolutely love these samples. Just a bit of a monkey's paw right now.


----------



## FireGS

Ziffles said:


> I noticed that IB instruments don't always sound very good in mono and have a lot of phase cancelation issues, and I couldn't figure out why. I thought maybe it was the instrument's impulse reverbs doing it, but even after disabling them in kontakt, I was still having mono phasing issues with the raw instruments.
> 
> So I looked at the raw waveforms themselves in the sample directory. Oddly enough, a lot of these waveforms, even though technically they're properly stereo correlated for the most part, seem to lose a lot of upper frequency information when they're converted to mono, and thus are not very mono friendly. Rather than play the waveforms in here and destroy everyone's ears, I'll just show a raw IB Trumpet 1 playing an F scale as an example.
> 
> Here it is normally in the Bersa hall:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trumpet-BERSA-STEREO.mp3
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Bersa mono:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trumpet-BERSA-MONO.mp3
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can already hear the phasing going on in mono, so here is the raw trumpet with no impulses on, in stereo (!!! VOLUME WARNING!!!!!):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trumpet-RAW-STEREO.mp3
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and mono:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trumpet-RAW-MONO.mp3
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can hear, this trumpet sounds nice and full in stereo, but in mono it loses a lot of the high end, and what's left is kind of smeared and odd sounding, kind of like the player is waving their hand around in front of the bell or something. It gets a very pronounced dip in mono around 7k, especially when played loudly, and on certain notes.
> 
> True, some of this is inevitable when summing to mono, but this is usually minimized by careful recording and mixing. This explains why IB instruments don't always "sit well" in mono. Hopefully this can be fixed, because otherwise I absolutely love these samples. Just a bit of a monkey's paw right now.


Whats your usecase for them 100% dry and in mono?


----------



## Ziffles

FireGS said:


> Whats your usecase for them 100% dry and in mono?


Well, I'm a composer and I work on a lot of mobile games and other media where people won't necessarily be listening with headphones or high end monitors, so I need my stuff to sound as good in mono (or a reduced stereo field) as it does in full stereo, as much as possible. Even with the instrument's impulse reverbs on, it still gets the upper frequency smearing in mono to a certain degree. Sometimes it's masked by the impulses, other times it isn't. Bottom line is, that smeary mono signal is being fed through the reverbs and can be very noticeable on louder, brassier stuff. This is something I don't have to worry about with other samples nearly as much, but with IB/IW stuff I have to check it constantly.

Second, sometimes it's nice to have a tight, focused mono signal that I can put through my own reverbs, such as VirtualSoundStage or whatever else. Infinite Brass and Winds are _very_ wide sounding, which is nice if I want a wide signal, but if it doesn't sum down to mono well enough then yeah there's gonna be issues.


----------



## ModalRealist

Ziffles said:


> Well, I'm a composer and I work on a lot of mobile games and other media where people won't necessarily be listening with headphones or high end monitors, so I need my stuff to sound as good in mono (or a reduced stereo field) as it does in full stereo, as much as possible. Even with the instrument's impulse reverbs on, it still gets the upper frequency smearing in mono to a certain degree. Sometimes it's masked by the impulses, other times it isn't. Bottom line is, that smeary mono signal is being fed through the reverbs and can be very noticeable on louder, brassier stuff. This is something I don't have to worry about with other samples nearly as much, but with IB/IW stuff I have to check it constantly.
> 
> Second, sometimes it's nice to have a tight, focused mono signal that I can put through my own reverbs, such as VirtualSoundStage or whatever else. Infinite Brass and Winds are _very_ wide sounding, which is nice if I want a wide signal, but if it doesn't sum down to mono well enough then yeah there's gonna be issues.


Could you not feed either the right or left signal as a mono input to a spatialisation plugin?


----------



## Ziffles

ModalRealist said:


> Could you not feed either the right or left signal as a mono input to a spatialisation plugin?


You can, and I've done that already with a pretty good result. But the thing is you can only do that with the raw, dry signal. Once the impulses are engaged that won't help.

I'm actually considering doing a batch mono channel conversion somehow with the raw wav samples signals on an instrument, just to test it out and see if it works.


----------



## Tralen

Ziffles said:


> You can, and I've done that already with a pretty good result. But the thing is you can only do that with the raw, dry signal. Once the impulses are engaged that won't help.
> 
> I'm actually considering doing a batch mono channel conversion somehow with the raw wav samples signals on an instrument, just to test it out and see if it works.


If you batch mono convert the samples, won't you just imprint exactly the effect you are trying to avoid?


----------



## Ziffles

Tralen said:


> If you batch mono convert the samples, won't you just imprint exactly the effect you are trying to avoid?


Oh definitely, and to clarify I mean I would have to do a L or R signal to mono, not a stereo to mono sum. Which is why I'm wondering if I could even do a batch conversion like that.

Also (to everyone), I hope I'm not giving the impression that I don't like the Infinite series, because I absolutely adore these samples. They're like a dream come true for me, even with the mono issues.


----------



## Tralen

Ziffles said:


> Oh definitely, and to clarify I mean I would have to do a L or R signal to mono, not a stereo to mono sum. Which is why I'm wondering if I could even do a batch conversion like that.
> 
> Also to reiterate, I hope I'm not giving the impression that I don't like the Infinite series, because I absolutely adore these samples. They're like a dream come true for me, even with the mono issues.


If you have access to Linux, this is pretty easy to do in the command line, with the *sox* tool. To select the left channel:
sox input.wav output.wav remix 1 

You would just run a loop to convert all the files.

Still, I think you should talk to Aaron about this, before taking such drastic measures.


----------



## aaronventure

Ziffles said:


> mono


Doing them that way was my way of attempting to tackle the static factor of impulse responses since Kontakt's IR doesn't offer any type of modulation. I sacrificed a bit of mono quality for a better stereo sound.

That being said, please send me an email via the website as I have an idea for an implementation which would be painless and could allow the user to enable mono compatibility with a click. 1.6 is done and in testing, but if I could test this thing out with you, I can still squeeze it into the update.


----------



## Denkii

99.9%


----------



## DANIELE

Denkii said:


> 99.9%


No the right number about the completion of the patch is 100%, now the test phase began so you have to start from 0% again.


----------



## I like music

@Ziffles just added another week to the release. Lets boo Ziffles!

Just kidding. And great to know that 1.6 is around the corner!


----------



## Ethan Toavs

DANIELE said:


> No the right number about the completion of the patch is 100%, now the test phase began so you have to start from 0% again.


+ 1 Month.


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> @Ziffles just added another week to the release. Lets boo Ziffles!
> 
> Just kidding. And great to know that 1.6 is around the corner!


Awww man... Skip the brass already. I need IS1.0. Boo!


----------



## Loïc D

Crossing fingers to have a sales period at the release of 1.6


----------



## Trash Panda

doctoremmet said:


> Awww man... Skip the brass already. I need IS1.0. Boo!


Hey! Leave the trombone improvements alone!


----------



## vicontrolu

A big +1 for mono compatibility. Also working for mobile and noticing the issue


----------



## pierrevigneron

aaronventure said:


> Actually addressed in Brass 1.6! (the overall consistency of Close mic panning following the position)
> 
> Before y'all ask, it's 95% done.


is this the percentage for IB update or IS ?Whatever happens i'm excited


----------



## DANIELE

pierrevigneron said:


> is this the percentage for IB update or IS ?Whatever happens i'm excited


IB 1.6


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> is this the percentage for IB update or IS ?Whatever happens i'm excited


101% for IS


----------



## doctoremmet

Anyone familiar with the so called SIPGAS phenomenon?

I have it.

It’s Self Induced Phantom GAS, where you deliberately fake to want to purchase something new because the thing you actually want isn’t there yet. 

Out of sheer SIPGAS I now went to the Modartt website, to look at physically modelled pianos I don’t really need. Someone help me. Please.

“Sip” is also a Dutch word that perfectly describes my feelings about it.


----------



## Markrs

doctoremmet said:


> Anyone familiar with the so called SIPGAS phenomenon?
> 
> I have it.
> 
> It’s Self Induced Phantom GAS, where you deliberately fake to want to purchase something new because the thing you actually want isn’t there yet.
> 
> Out of sheer SIPGAS I now went to the Modartt website, to look at physically modelled pianos I don’t really need. Someone help me. Please.
> 
> “Sip” is also a Dutch word that perfectly describes my feelings about it.


I can't help you as I ended up getting Pianoteq, though I got it at a _very_ good price on knobcloud (bought v5 standard, then upgraded to v7, and it still came in at 69% off the current retail price). It is really nice, but I am so happy with SSS Sig Grand along with all the other pianos I have, not sure if I would have got it if it was not for the high discount. 

Unless it is priced really high I will get Pianoteq for iOS when it comes out, as it is ideal for devices like ipads, with limited storage and RAM.


----------



## John R Wilson

pierrevigneron said:


> is this the percentage for IB update or IS ?Whatever happens i'm excited


Both, but its at 99.99 percent now


----------



## doctoremmet

Markrs said:


> I can't help you as I ended up getting Pianoteq, though I got it at a _very_ good price on knobcloud (bought v5 standard, then upgraded to v7, and it still came in at 69% off the current retail price). It is really nice, but I am so happy with SSS Sig Grand along with all the other pianos I have, not sure if I would have got it if it was not for the high discount.
> 
> Unless it is priced really high I will get Pianoteq for iOS when it comes out, as it is ideal for devices like ipads, with limited storage and RAM.


Another piano thread reminded me of my ridiculous yet fun quest to own any and all Steinway B samples. I used to have piano lessons on one. (I now have: Xsample, Synthogy, Versillian Joachim’s Piano, ArtVista VirtualGrandPiano 3, AIR Mini Grand). Anyway, Pianoteq obviously has a B. So... hoard away! (I believe I also still need the EZKeys one and the Fluffy Audio one - so I can always SIDE-SIPGAS to those - as I agree with your concept of getting stuff on sale).

And all this because someone HAD to ask about IB1.6, which has distracted Aaron from finishing IS!!!


----------



## Jamus

doctoremmet said:


> Anyone familiar with the so called SIPGAS phenomenon?
> 
> I have it.
> 
> It’s Self Induced Phantom GAS, where you deliberately fake to want to purchase something new because the thing you actually want isn’t there yet.
> 
> Out of sheer SIPGAS I now went to the Modartt website, to look at physically modelled pianos I don’t really need. Someone help me. Please.
> 
> “Sip” is also a Dutch word that perfectly describes my feelings about it.


Literally why I purchased SWAM Strings when IS was pushed to 2021 🤣


----------



## Trash Panda

doctoremmet said:


> Anyone familiar with the so called SIPGAS phenomenon?
> 
> I have it.
> 
> It’s Self Induced Phantom GAS, where you deliberately fake to want to purchase something new because the thing you actually want isn’t there yet.
> 
> Out of sheer SIPGAS I now went to the Modartt website, to look at physically modelled pianos I don’t really need. Someone help me. Please.
> 
> “Sip” is also a Dutch word that perfectly describes my feelings about it.


Yes, but moreso for plugins as I’m content to wait for AI’s Solos and better learn to use the bajillion libraries I bought last year. And one vocal course involving Spencer Sotelo from Periphery.


----------



## gedlig

Trash Panda said:


> Yes, but moreso for plugins as I’m content to wait for AI’s Solos and better learn to use the bajillion libraries I bought last year. And one vocal course involving Spencer Sotelo from Periphery.


dj0nt 🤘🏻


----------



## RogiervG

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Interesting comparison here of Infinite Brass 1.4 vs JXL, CSB, and SM. Would love to see something like this for Infinite Woodwinds 2.0.



Not a very good compare though..


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Hey Aaron! Any news on that 1.6 update?

The hanging notes are starting to make my brain rattle, I fear insanity is closing in on me.

(love the library sorry to bug ya 🙊)


----------



## DANIELE

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Hey Aaron! Any news on that 1.6 update?
> 
> The hanging notes are starting to make my brain rattle, I fear insanity is closing in on me.
> 
> (love the library sorry to bug ya 🙊)


We are at -10%.


----------



## El Buhdai

I'm alive!

Haven't had much to say here because, well, I'm 100% satisfied with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, and word about the library has spread enough that I don't necessarily feel the need to contribute my own praise very much anymore. Sure, I still have minor gripes with the trombones and the oboes, but it doesn't really matter to me that much when the libraries sound so great compared to when I bought them. I mean, just listen to them! I've posted a piece I'm working on below.

That said, I'm excited about any improvements 1.6 might bring to the trombones. Outside of that I can't really see myself adding the new instruments to my ongoing projects because the current libraries are simply that strong.

All brass and woodwinds are Infinite. It's mostly out of the box with some minor eq on some instruments, but I did up the ambience on the piccolo a bit for that adventurous sound, and I created by own early reflections using delay for the brass just to give them a bunch of air and space. Just felt it was fair to disclose that there _were_ adjustments made to the sound, even if they were minor. Enjoy!

Full piece:
View attachment Survival Showdown Music.mp3

Main Theme (French Horns Only):
View attachment Horns Only.mp3

Main Theme (Trumpets Only)
View attachment Trumpets Only.mp3


TL;DR: In my mind, Infinite Brass is finished, and I don't have much left to say on these libraries that I haven't already said many times throughout this thread's life. I'll probably be fairly inactive here until we get another update... or another library?


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> I'm alive!
> 
> Haven't had much to say here because, well, I'm 100% satisfied with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, and word about the library has spread enough that I don't necessarily feel the need to contribute my own praise very much anymore. Sure, I still have minor gripes with the trombones and the oboes, but it doesn't really matter to me that much when the libraries sound so great compared to when I bought them. I mean, just listen to them! I've posted a piece I'm working on below.
> 
> That said, I'm excited about any improvements 1.6 might bring to the trombones. Outside of that I can't really see myself adding the new instruments to my ongoing projects because the current libraries are simply that strong.
> 
> All brass and woodwinds are Infinite. It's mostly out of the box with some minor eq on some instruments, but I did up the ambience on the piccolo a bit for that adventurous sound, and I created by own early reflections using delay for the brass just to give them a bunch of air and space. Just felt it was fair to disclose that there _were_ adjustments made to the sound, even if they were minor. Enjoy!
> 
> Full piece:
> View attachment Survival Showdown Music.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (French Horns Only):
> View attachment Horns Only.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (Trumpets Only)
> View attachment Trumpets Only.mp3
> 
> 
> TL;DR: In my mind, Infinite Brass is finished, and I don't have much left to say on these libraries that I haven't already said many times throughout this thread's life. I'll probably be fairly inactive here until we get another update... or another library?


I did miss you! ❤️


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I'm alive!
> 
> Haven't had much to say here because, well, I'm 100% satisfied with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, and word about the library has spread enough that I don't necessarily feel the need to contribute my own praise very much anymore. Sure, I still have minor gripes with the trombones and the oboes, but it doesn't really matter to me that much when the libraries sound so great compared to when I bought them. I mean, just listen to them! I've posted a piece I'm working on below.
> 
> That said, I'm excited about any improvements 1.6 might bring to the trombones. Outside of that I can't really see myself adding the new instruments to my ongoing projects because the current libraries are simply that strong.
> 
> All brass and woodwinds are Infinite. It's mostly out of the box with some minor eq on some instruments, but I did up the ambience on the piccolo a bit for that adventurous sound, and I created by own early reflections using delay for the brass just to give them a bunch of air and space. Just felt it was fair to disclose that there _were_ adjustments made to the sound, even if they were minor. Enjoy!
> 
> Full piece:
> View attachment Survival Showdown Music.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (French Horns Only):
> View attachment Horns Only.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (Trumpets Only)
> View attachment Trumpets Only.mp3
> 
> 
> TL;DR: In my mind, Infinite Brass is finished, and I don't have much left to say on these libraries that I haven't already said many times throughout this thread's life. I'll probably be fairly inactive here until we get another update... or another library?


Awesome!!


----------



## Loïc D

El Buhdai said:


> It's mostly out of the box with some minor eq on some instruments, but I did up the ambience on the piccolo a bit for that adventurous sound, and I created by own early reflections using delay for the brass just to give them a bunch of air and space.


Very impressive !
Would you care to elaborate a bit your settings ?


----------



## DivingInSpace

So, Performance samples are discontinuing their Caspian Brass. Does anybody here use it with Infinite Brass? Or do those who own both think it isn't worth adding to your arsenal when you already have Infinite Brass?


----------



## Chris Richter

El Buhdai said:


> Full piece:
> View attachment Survival Showdown Music.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (French Horns Only):
> View attachment Horns Only.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (Trumpets Only)
> View attachment Trumpets Only.mp3


Love the moment at 0:10 in both Horns and Trumpets.


----------



## pierrevigneron

El Buhdai said:


> I'm alive!
> 
> Haven't had much to say here because, well, I'm 100% satisfied with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, and word about the library has spread enough that I don't necessarily feel the need to contribute my own praise very much anymore. Sure, I still have minor gripes with the trombones and the oboes, but it doesn't really matter to me that much when the libraries sound so great compared to when I bought them. I mean, just listen to them! I've posted a piece I'm working on below.
> 
> That said, I'm excited about any improvements 1.6 might bring to the trombones. Outside of that I can't really see myself adding the new instruments to my ongoing projects because the current libraries are simply that strong.
> 
> All brass and woodwinds are Infinite. It's mostly out of the box with some minor eq on some instruments, but I did up the ambience on the piccolo a bit for that adventurous sound, and I created by own early reflections using delay for the brass just to give them a bunch of air and space. Just felt it was fair to disclose that there _were_ adjustments made to the sound, even if they were minor. Enjoy!
> 
> Full piece:
> View attachment Survival Showdown Music.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (French Horns Only):
> View attachment Horns Only.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (Trumpets Only)
> View attachment Trumpets Only.mp3
> 
> 
> TL;DR: In my mind, Infinite Brass is finished, and I don't have much left to say on these libraries that I haven't already said many times throughout this thread's life. I'll probably be fairly inactive here until we get another update... or another library?





El Buhdai said:


> I'm alive!
> 
> Haven't had much to say here because, well, I'm 100% satisfied with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, and word about the library has spread enough that I don't necessarily feel the need to contribute my own praise very much anymore. Sure, I still have minor gripes with the trombones and the oboes, but it doesn't really matter to me that much when the libraries sound so great compared to when I bought them. I mean, just listen to them! I've posted a piece I'm working on below.
> 
> That said, I'm excited about any improvements 1.6 might bring to the trombones. Outside of that I can't really see myself adding the new instruments to my ongoing projects because the current libraries are simply that strong.
> 
> All brass and woodwinds are Infinite. It's mostly out of the box with some minor eq on some instruments, but I did up the ambience on the piccolo a bit for that adventurous sound, and I created by own early reflections using delay for the brass just to give them a bunch of air and space. Just felt it was fair to disclose that there _were_ adjustments made to the sound, even if they were minor. Enjoy!
> 
> Full piece:
> View attachment Survival Showdown Music.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (French Horns Only):
> View attachment Horns Only.mp3
> 
> Main Theme (Trumpets Only)
> View attachment Trumpets Only.mp3
> 
> 
> TL;DR: In my mind, Infinite Brass is finished, and I don't have much left to say on these libraries that I haven't already said many times throughout this thread's life. I'll probably be fairly inactive here until we get another update... or another library?


I like it ! Possible to have the score/midi?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DivingInSpace said:


> So, Performance samples are discontinuing their Caspian Brass. Does anybody here use it with Infinite Brass? Or do those who own both think it isn't worth adding to your arsenal when you already have Infinite Brass?


I use it all the time with Caspian


----------



## DivingInSpace

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I use it all the time with Caspian


How do you use them together? Layering or just supplementing each other? Maybe both? Do you have any examples where you use both?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DivingInSpace said:


> How do you use them together? Layering or just supplementing each other? Maybe both? Do you have any examples where you use both?


I sorta stack them. I find Caspian can add that extra bit of room tone. I don't use a template, however, so I end up using them slightly different each time. Sometimes starting with Caspian and layering Infinite over it for extra detail, sometimes starting with Infinite and adding Caspian or CSB if I feel I need it.

Here are some demos (keep in mind these demos include bits from other brass libraries too):












https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a-Acx-zHUA


----------



## DivingInSpace

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I sorta stack them. I find Caspian can add that extra bit of room tone. I don't use a template, however, so I end up using them slightly different each time. Sometimes starting with Caspian and layering Infinite over it for extra detail, sometimes starting with Infinite and adding Caspian or CSB if I feel I need it.


Thanks a lot man, some great sounding stuff in there. I think i might pull the trigger and pick it up


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DivingInSpace said:


> Thanks a lot man, some great sounding stuff in there. I think i might pull the trigger and pick it up


Caspian is definitely worth it. I honestly can't believe he's discontinuing it.


----------



## RogiervG

it's very tempting, freedom in playing, not bound to sampled articulations and the likes.
no key switches either.. *yay*

However, there is still something synthetic in many pieces i've heard (IB and IW).
a sort of squashed, compressed, part sample, part synth thing.
It seems (i might be wrong!) you need to tweak a lot afterwards, to get rid of it. That is what holds me back, because i am afraid of this side effect. in using it in context, say, not exposed or soloistic use, it is a lot better though.
Note: there are ofcourse good examples too, where it is non existing (or not really audible). but again i bet there is a lot of tweaking going on (dynamic curves, vibrato adjustments, etc etc) 

note2: it seems quite a few users, layer it with other libraries, for tone (getting rid of the synthy sound i guess?) mostly (and yes it sounds good). 
This gives a bit of clouded sound, because it becomes unclear what you are listening to: samples or IB/W?


----------



## tritonely

Really interested in what your usecases are for IB and IW. What I'm a little bit worried about is to open 4 Kontakt patches for the four trumpets of IB, especially if I want ensemble work for the whole orchestra (hopefully IS soon). With IS I heard it has ensemble patches, but users of IB and IW, how do you build an Aaron Venture orchestra with all the instruments for grand or epic sound? Just load in 50+ patches in a few Kontakts? I was (and am) really excited about the playablility, but with loading so many patches for a big orchestra I'm a little bit hesitant to use IB and IW.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

tritonely said:


> Really interested in what your usecases are for IB and IW. What I'm a little bit worried about is to open 4 Kontakt patches for the four trumpets of IB, especially if I want ensemble work for the whole orchestra (hopefully IS soon). With IS I heard it has ensemble patches, but users of IB and IW, how do you build an Aaron Venture orchestra with all the instruments for grand or epic sound? Just load in 50+ patches in a few Kontakts? I was (and am) really excited about the playablility, but with loading so many patches for a big orchestra I'm a little bit hesitant to use IB and IW.


it is probably one of the least resource intensive libraries for the quality of the samples that I've ever used. it's really amazing what he's done. 

it's just those damn hanging notes......... was doing something heavy on brass and winds last night, every 2 minutes right in my ear BRRAAAAAAAAAAAA while other stuff is playing. at 2 AM trying to finish a cue and I can't finish a mix because of how much it was holding me up, i really was about to smash my computer

it's mostly the cimbasso and trombones and it's shorts. think the issue is that you have to actually write super short notes to get shorts (which is great) but the note off is more likely to miss somehow

I will say though it's super cool how to do things like falls and rips you have to actually write them as if you were playing them. the one downside is it's hard to get that cuivre/brassy rip sound that you get from a pre-recorded patch. 

also the winds don't rip as well as the brass.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> it is probably one of the least resource intensive libraries for the quality of the samples that I've ever used. it's really amazing what he's done.
> 
> it's just those damn hanging notes......... was doing something heavy on brass and winds last night, every 2 minutes right in my ear BRRAAAAAAAAAAAA while other stuff is playing. at 2 AM trying to finish a cue and I can't finish a mix because of how much it was holding me up, i really was about to smash my computer
> 
> it's mostly the cimbasso and trombones and it's shorts. think the issue is that you have to actually write super short notes to get shorts (which is great) but the note off is more likely to miss somehow
> 
> I will say though it's super cool how to do things like falls and rips you have to actually write them as if you were playing them. the one downside is it's hard to get that cuivre/brassy rip sound that you get from a pre-recorded patch.
> 
> also the winds don't rip as well as the brass.


And you are sure you have humanization turn-off on all of them?


----------



## DANIELE

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> it is probably one of the least resource intensive libraries for the quality of the samples that I've ever used. it's really amazing what he's done.
> 
> it's just those damn hanging notes......... was doing something heavy on brass and winds last night, every 2 minutes right in my ear BRRAAAAAAAAAAAA while other stuff is playing. at 2 AM trying to finish a cue and I can't finish a mix because of how much it was holding me up, i really was about to smash my computer
> 
> it's mostly the cimbasso and trombones and it's shorts. think the issue is that you have to actually write super short notes to get shorts (which is great) but the note off is more likely to miss somehow
> 
> I will say though it's super cool how to do things like falls and rips you have to actually write them as if you were playing them. the one downside is it's hard to get that cuivre/brassy rip sound that you get from a pre-recorded patch.
> 
> also the winds don't rip as well as the brass.


About rips I think he needs to do something about IW, the runs I try to do, especially with the flutes, are not exactly on point, there is still something missing even if I think they behave pretty good already.


----------



## El Buhdai

pierrevigneron said:


> I like it ! Possible to have the score/midi?





Loïc D said:


> Very impressive !
> Would you care to elaborate a bit your settings ?


Of course! For both of you, which sections, parts, or instruments are you interested in?


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Jonathan Moray said:


> And you are sure you have humanization turn-off on all of them?


yeah, it's not that unfortunately. Aaron is aware, he is working on it for the fix. Just being crabby!


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

DANIELE said:


> About rips I think he needs to do something about IW, the runs I try to do, especially with the flutes, are not exactly on point, there is still something missing even if I think they behave pretty good already.


yeah the runs are pretty good if you mess with them for a while, they're still not as good as some of the sample based runs in terms of that kind of almost over blown quality you tend to get, but the ability to actually write more flexibly (imo) is what makes the modeling stuff so great. if there were a sort of runs detection or runs SWITCH (like he has for flutter) that lets you ride in the brassiness or reedines/airiness that would really add to the depth of the library.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> yeah, it's not that unfortunately. Aaron is aware, he is working on it for the fix. Just being crabby!


So I heard. I just find it strange that it such a stark contrast. I, and many others, have zero hanging notes after turning of humnazation while some still have hanging notes, and in your case, they are so bad that the library becomes near unusable. Such a strange and individualistic problem.

It's unusual for libraries to be that different between users, so I wonder what the under lying problem could be.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Jonathan Moray said:


> So I heard. I just find it strange that it such a stark contrast. I, and many others, have zero hanging notes after turning of humnazation while some still have hanging notes, and in your case, they are so bad that the library becomes near unusable. Such a strange and individualistic problem.
> 
> It's unusual for libraries to be that different between users, so I wonder what the under lying problem could be.


Well, I mean there are other factors at play that may exacerbate the issue. For example, are you on VEP? Pro Tools is also... not the BEST midi engine afaik, but also I legitimately do not have this problem with ANY other libraries besides for the SINE engine stuff which I never use and for which this is a known bug/issue that they are working on. 

Believe me it's beyond frustrating because I love this library so much I'm so attached to it I can't just move on to something else, it is my workhorse for brass and winds (though I still favor the CSB Tuba).


----------



## DANIELE

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> yeah the runs are pretty good if you mess with them for a while, they're still not as good as some of the sample based runs in terms of that kind of almost over blown quality you tend to get, but the ability to actually write more flexibly (imo) is what makes the modeling stuff so great. if there were a sort of runs detection or runs SWITCH (like he has for flutter) that lets you ride in the brassiness or reedines/airiness that would really add to the depth of the library.


The brass work better, I was able to perform rips and trills very convincingly, the thing I miss a bit from IW is a bit more of airness with the flutes while performing the runs. If you listen to the runs performed in almost every John Williams track they are bright and airy, I find a little bit difficult to get the same result with IW, unless I'm missing something.




donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Well, I mean there are other factors at play that may exacerbate the issue. For example, are you on VEP? Pro Tools is also... not the BEST midi engine afaik, but also I legitimately do not have this problem with ANY other libraries besides for the SINE engine stuff which I never use and for which this is a known bug/issue that they are working on.
> 
> Believe me it's beyond frustrating because I love this library so much I'm so attached to it I can't just move on to something else, it is my workhorse for brass and winds (though I still favor the CSB Tuba).


Did you try to troubleshoot the problem with Aaron?


----------



## aaronventure

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> those damn hanging notes





Jonathan Moray said:


> Such a strange and individualistic problem


Yeah, it can be down to DAWs. 1.6 testing so far shows a lot of promise on this front. 

Donny, until that and the next woodwinds update drops, look into your DAW settings and see if it can be set to send global note-offs on transport stop. That helped some users in the past.


----------



## Tralen

@donnyluvd2bowl, if your DAW doesn't have an option to send Note Offs with the transport, see if 
you can set a keybinding to send global Note Offs manually. That is very useful for any library, as a global safety measure.

In Reaper, there is an action that you can assign, and I believe other DAWs have a MIDI panic feature.


----------



## shawnsingh

For cubase, I believe the command is called "midi reset".


----------



## Trash Panda

DANIELE said:


> If you listen to the runs performed in almost every John Williams track they are bright and airy, I find a little bit difficult to get the same result with IW, unless I'm missing something.


Did turning up the dynamics not add it in? AFAIK the 2.0 update tied in that breathy noise to dynamics.


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> The brass work better, I was able to perform rips and trills very convincingly, the thing I miss a bit from IW is a bit more of airness with the flutes while performing the runs.


That, and the key noise volume not being linked to the dynamics volume. To be fair here, the breath noise in 2.0 sounds more apart of the instrument than previous version. When I first picked up IW I had an issue with the breath noise sounding too much like it wasn't apart of the flute.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

aaronventure said:


> Yeah, it can be down to DAWs. 1.6 testing so far shows a lot of promise on this front.
> 
> Donny, until that and the next woodwinds update drops, look into your DAW settings and see if it can be set to send global note-offs on transport stop. That helped some users in the past.


can't wait!

there is a note-off shortcut yes, but can't press it during an online bounce so I may try via Bome if the update doesn't solve it. 

Thanks!


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

DANIELE said:


> The brass work better, I was able to perform rips and trills very convincingly, the thing I miss a bit from IW is a bit more of airness with the flutes while performing the runs. If you listen to the runs performed in almost every John Williams track they are bright and airy, I find a little bit difficult to get the same result with IW, unless I'm missing something.


100% on rips although I think trills work great, and the one thing I'll say about rips on both IW and IB is if you tie all *except* the target note and give it 127 velocity it will give a bit of that pop tonally at the end


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> Did turning up the dynamics not add it in? AFAIK the 2.0 update tied in that breathy noise to dynamics.


Raising up the dynamics helped a bit but not as much as I hoped. If you listen to the "Battle Over Coruscant" track I did you can hear what I mean. I also added a bit of EQ on the high frequencies to get a bit more air on the flutes and piccolo but it still lack something.


----------



## DANIELE

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> 100% on rips although I think trills work great, and the one thing I'll say about rips on both IW and IB is if you tie all *except* the target note and give it 127 velocity it will give a bit of that pop tonally at the end


I tried many things and some work better, some other worse. I did a little run test a while ago where I tried to tie the notes or divide them all with different results. I also tried to do what you say and I have good results but there is still something missing.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

DANIELE said:


> I tried many things and some work better, some other worse. I did a little run test a while ago where I tried to tie the notes or divide them all with different results. I also tried to do what you say and I have good results but there is still something missing.


no i agree, that's what i was saying earlier, it would be great if they could figure that out, but for now I just layer the brass with rips from CSB and stacc from bbc for winds (or just have the run on stacc and fade it in towards the top)


----------



## Ziffles

I like music said:


> @Ziffles just added another week to the release. Lets boo Ziffles!
> 
> Just kidding. And great to know that 1.6 is around the corner!


Noooo!! 

I missed Aaron's reply last week, so I'll send him an email. I actually tried my own mono hack and batch converted the samples of one of the trumpet patches using Wavosaur (stereo to mono using one channel, then convert back to stereo again to work properly with the kontakt patch) and it worked! The results were... mixed.

It actually didn't wind up sounding a whole lot different than the regular stereo patch. It seems like the impulses are indeed imparting a lot of their own sound onto it moreso than I thought they were. Go figure, they're impulses after all.

I think I'm just gonna live with it for now and not hold Aaron up any more, haha! I can't wait for 1.6!


----------



## I like music

Ziffles said:


> Noooo!!
> 
> I missed Aaron's reply last week, so I'll send him an email. I actually tried my own mono hack and batch converted the samples of one of the trumpet patches using Wavosaur (stereo to mono using one channel, then convert back to stereo again to work properly with the kontakt patch) and it worked! The results were... mixed.
> 
> It actually didn't wind up sounding a whole lot different than the regular stereo patch. It seems like the impulses are indeed imparting a lot of their own sound onto it moreso than I thought they were. Go figure, they're impulses after all.
> 
> I think I'm just gonna live with it for now and not hold Aaron up any more, haha! I can't wait for 1.6!


Haha was just kidding of course! I hope you find a solid solution soon.


----------



## Pontus Rufelt

Used a ton of the horns on this trailer recently. Thought I’d share.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Several here had asked to see the Infinite series in a Jazz context. Here all the winds are IB and IW


----------



## Tralen

pierrevigneron said:


> Several here had asked to see the Infinite series in a Jazz context. Here all the winds are IB and IW


Thank you for that. I was looking to hear something in this style.


----------



## Terry93D

Quite good as LASS Lite is... I still want the Infinite Strings. I want that customization of section size!

(If you're wondering how they sound together, they sound like this:  Alongside LASS Lite and the Infinite Brass and Winds, a mix of VSCO2, G-Town, and Best Service COC provide percussion.)


----------



## PerryD

I was experimenting with an ASM Hydrasynth and created some cheesy robotic bird chirping. Ha! I threw on some Infinite French horns, Trombones & Trumpets. Now it sounds like a cheesy SciFi TV track.


----------



## Saxer

Cool track!


----------



## shawnsingh

Oh yeah this is from Season 1, Episode 3, of "Infinite Trek", that new hit show on VentureFlix!


----------



## Jamus

PerryD said:


> I was experimenting with an ASM Hydrasynth and created some cheesy robotic bird chirping. Ha! I threw on some Infinite French horns, Trombones & Trumpets. Now it sounds like a cheesy SciFi TV track.



Bravo 👏


----------



## Loïc D

@PerryD Congrats, that sounds utterly cool & funny.
FWIW, you are the best salesperson of Infinite range


----------



## PerryD

Loïc D said:


> @PerryD Congrats, that sounds utterly cool & funny.
> FWIW, you are the best salesperson of Infinite range


Awesome. Thank you!


----------



## Toecutter

PerryD said:


> I was experimenting with an ASM Hydrasynth and created some cheesy robotic bird chirping. Ha! I threw on some Infinite French horns, Trombones & Trumpets. Now it sounds like a cheesy SciFi TV track.



 this was fun! The more I hear AV horns the more I like them.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Today, I composed a fanfare for brass and percussion, using only IB for the brass. Two years after buying this library, I am still very pleased with how playable it is. The recent updates to the tone of the instruments have only solidified my opinion. I still, without hesitation, stand by my own testimony that can be seen on the Aaron Venture website.


----------



## AlainTH

very specific sounding


----------



## Ethan Toavs

AlainTH said:


> very specific sounding


What do you mean?


----------



## Jamus

Teaser trailer for IS??? Gimme something, I'm itchin' 😭


----------



## Akora

Jamus said:


> Teaser trailer for IS??? Gimme something, I'm itchin' 😭


Uh oh, you just made a crucial mistake. You cannot make requests of Lord Aaron. +1 month


----------



## RogiervG

Kenneth Malm said:


> Uh oh, you just made a crucial mistake. You cannot make requests of Lord Aaron. +1 month


Well.. he just did


----------



## doctoremmet

Kenneth Malm said:


> Uh oh, you just made a crucial mistake. You cannot make requests of Lord Aaron. +1 month


Pretty sure Jamus is Aaron. He just bought himself some time, smart fellow. The name is a dead give-away isn't it?






Threw the door to IS right in our faces. You have to watch for signs Kenneth, you have to watch for signs.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Kenneth Malm said:


> Uh oh, you just made a crucial mistake. You cannot make requests of Lord Aaron. +1 month


I think you mean, "2022."


----------



## Dmitry

I don't believe in IS, will sounds very synth and lifeless. it is not possible today make a beautiful strings, only samples.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Dmitry said:


> I don't believe in IS, will sounds very synth and lifeless. it is not possible today make a beautiful strings, only samples.


It has not even been released yet. What are your reasons for thinking this? Let us withhold our judgements on the tone of the instruments until we actually hear official demos for them.


----------



## doctoremmet

Deleted a slightly irritated yet useless post.


----------



## Dmitry

Ethan Toavs said:


> It has not even been released yet. What are your reasons for thinking this? Let us withhold our judgements on the tone of the instruments until we actually hear official demos for them.


I heard AM and SM strings - sounds poor, and the IR technology doesn't get that quality like real recording strings in hall. However i like IB, but strings is too hard. I will be glad if this is not so.


----------



## Dan

Dmitry said:


> I don't believe in IS, will sounds very synth and lifeless. it is not possible today make a beautiful strings, only samples.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Dmitry said:


> I heard AM and SM strings - sounds poor, and the IR technology doesn't get that quality like real recording strings in hall. However i like IB, but strings is too hard. I will be glad if this is not so.


Deleted a redundant post that would only feed the troll.


----------



## doctoremmet

Don’t feed the troll...


----------



## Dmitry

I'm not allowed to have that opinion ? why troll? I know a little bit about how it works and therefore I think so or maybe they surprise me.


----------



## doctoremmet

What makes you think it is in any way constructive to declare an upcoming sample library will sound lifeless and synthy? Or what is the actual point really?

It would matter if you are a highly respected forum member whose experience and track record for creating very sparkling and beautiful orchestral demos using VIs is well known. In that case I would be interested in your opinion. 

As it is, it is a bit random to encounter someone who is relatively unknown on here in a thread posting a totally unresearched opinion about a library that isn’t even released yet. In that case a “who cares” reaction is kind of warranted or at least to be expected. Also, consider it an act of kindness and maybe as a likely failed attempt to educate you, that I even react. I am not looking for any further discussion about this. Feel free to post more pointless opinions. I’ll hit the ignore button and look forward to continue a more constructive (and fun) dialogue with the other people in this thread.


----------



## I like music

Dmitry said:


> I heard AM and SM strings - sounds poor, and the IR technology doesn't get that quality like real recording strings in hall. However i like IB, but strings is too hard. I will be glad if this is not so.


I have a feeling it'll sound decent (in timbre). Perhaps not QUITE the same as a traditionally sampled-only library, but I have a feeling it'll surprise us.


----------



## Toecutter

Dan said:


>



That got me XD


----------



## doctoremmet

I am looking forward to see and experience what IS will bring to the table. Most of us have a bunch of string libraries, and personally I think I will find use for IS in combination with those.


----------



## Loïc D

Dmitry said:


> I don't believe in IS, will sounds very synth and lifeless. it is not possible today make a beautiful strings, only samples.


You are free to believe it but we’ll see if IS is a game changer that proves you wrong.
Aaron did a splendid job with woodwinds and brass, so why not.
The sole benefit of lightweight expressive instruments alone would justify a potential tradeoff in tone IMHO.
And samples are far from ideal solution with noises, RAM hog, inconsistencies, tradeoff with layers, baked in lengths and high dependency to what articulations have been recorded.

Eventually, whatever the technology, what’s most important is the composer’s/programmer’s skillset.


----------



## Tralen

Dmitry said:


> I heard AM and SM strings - sounds poor, and the IR technology doesn't get that quality like real recording strings in hall. However i like IB, but strings is too hard. I will be glad if this is not so.


I think AM and SM sound better than most sample libraries. Some people, such as yourself, care more about tone quality, others, such as myself, care more about transitions and playability.

Your statements in the thread might sound too dismissive in this regard, but I'm sure that is due to a language barrier.


----------



## mussnig

doctoremmet said:


> It would matter if you are a highly respected forum member whose experience and track record for creating very sparkling and beautiful orchestral demos using VIs is well known. In that case I would be interested in your opinion.



Usually I agree with you but I am afraid not in that particular point. One's ability to judge the tone of a product should not be determined by their ability to create music. Obviously, opinions are usually subjective anyways (unless, of course, one points out something like phasing etc. which you can measure). But in general you also don't require food critics to be good chefs, movie critics to be good filmmakers, ...

Sure, we don't know how "good" @Dmitry's ears are and if the general audience here would approve of their taste. Also, judging IS without any demos is obviously ridiculous. But it shoudln't matter how good someone is at making music to respect their opinion or taste.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Version 1 of IS will surely be far from perfect but when we see the difference between the first and the last versions of IW and IB there is something to be enthusiastic about. Especially since we know that Aaron does not drop his products!

Regarding SM strings, they are also far from perfect (notably the cello solo, the tone in the low register, the staccato and the fact that they have difficulty giving the feeling of a very large orchestra). For the rest they are very good in my opinion. For example, the agility of violins is unparalleled for example.


----------



## I like music

mussnig said:


> Usually I agree with you but I am afraid not in that particular point. One's ability to judge the tone of a product should not be determined by their ability to create music. Obviously, opinions are usually subjective anyways (unless, of course, one points out something like phasing etc. which you can measure). But in general you also don't require food critics to be good chefs, movie critics to be good filmmakers, ...
> 
> Sure, we don't know how "good" @Dmitry's ears are and if the general audience here would approve of their taste. Also, judging IS without any demos is obviously ridiculous. But it shoudln't matter how good someone is at making music to respect their opinion or taste.


Aye, agreed here. Also, Dmitry did say that he was hoping he was proved wrong. I don't think he was crapping on it personally, merely saying that he has reservations. Reservations that I also have to some extent.

But you know, I also have "The Belief" so I can put the reservations to the side very easily.


----------



## Toecutter

Dmitry said:


> I heard AM and SM strings - sounds poor, and the IR technology doesn't get that quality like real recording strings in hall. However i like IB, but strings is too hard. I will be glad if this is not so.


Yep you heard AM and SM strings but not IS? I don't like AM and SM strings but we're talking Aaron Venture... the developer who did this 

Listen to the strings (not even close to being a finished product) and tell me if they have any resemblance to AM or SM strings.


----------



## I like music

Toecutter said:


> Yep you heard AM and SM strings but not IS? I don't like AM and SM strings but we're talking Aaron Venture... the developer who did this
> 
> Listen to the strings (not even close to being a finished product) and tell me if they have any resemblance to AM or SM strings.



Wait, what? Those are IS you think?


----------



## I like music

Toecutter said:


> Yep you heard AM and SM strings but not IS? I don't like AM and SM strings but we're talking Aaron Venture... the developer who did this
> 
> Listen to the strings (not even close to being a finished product) and tell me if they have any resemblance to AM or SM strings.



Hold up, wait a minute. I've heard this demo many times but it didn't have strings in it I'm sure? Soooo....


----------



## Toecutter

I like music said:


> Wait, what? Those are IS you think?


I assumed they were? How hilarious it would be if those turned out to be AM or SM strings... brb gonna have a small nervous breakdown.


----------



## Toecutter

I like music said:


> Hold up, wait a minute. I've heard this demo many times but it didn't have strings in it I'm sure? Soooo....


Exactly why I assumed they were AV strings


----------



## I like music

Toecutter said:


> I assumed they were? How hilarious it would be if those turned out to be AM or SM string... brb gonna have e small nervous breakdown.


Hilarious! I think Aaron's got a shitload of other libraries that he supplements until he develops his own, I'm guessing!


----------



## I like music

Toecutter said:


> Exactly why I assumed they were AV strings


Someone wanna ask him? Worth a +1 I reckon...


----------



## mussnig

Toecutter said:


> I assumed they were? How hilarious it would be if those turned out to be AM or SM string... brb gonna have e small nervous breakdown.



I never thought it was IS. Same as I wouldn't assume that he is using IP here ...


----------



## doctoremmet

mussnig said:


> Usually I agree with you but I am afraid not in that particular point. One's ability to judge the tone of a product should not be determined by their ability to create music. Obviously, opinions are usually subjective anyways (unless, of course, one points out something like phasing etc. which you can measure). But in general you also don't require food critics to be good chefs, movie critics to be good filmmakers, ...
> 
> Sure, we don't know how "good" @Dmitry's ears are and if the general audience here would approve of their taste. Also, judging IS without any demos is obviously ridiculous. But it shoudln't matter how good someone is at making music to respect their opinion or taste.


I get your point but you may not have understood me correctly. Or let me rephrase: I may not have formulated that clearly.

My claim is not that you have to be a chef to be able to talk about food, dishes and your own taste. I totally agree with you.

My point is: in the case that someone I have never heard of before - who MAY even be a chef - declares out of the blue “this restaurant called IS that is about to open in a couple of months serves tasteless food, because I have eaten in two totally different restaurants” I register a disconnect —> my question immediately becomes “ok, who is this person and is it remotely possible his or her opinion matters, even though he or she cannot possibly have tried the food in restaurant IS yet”.

Now, in THAT specific case, it would maybe matter whether or not the opinion was expressed by a well known chef. I’d still ask myself how on earth that chef would be able to have an opinion, but the comment would definitely register with me, and maybe I would ask more questions....

In this case it MAY be a chef, but I am not aware it is. So now.... it is nothing more than just another opinion on the internet. Of course I myself am not a chef, nor able to create anything remotely sparkling, beautiful and orchestral, and I have posted lots of opinions on food and on sample libraries... howcome? Well, as far as I am concerned, everybody (chefs, and us ordinary folk who just eat) is entitled to an opinion. But it does help if an opinion is actually based on something resembling actual experience. Which in this case, arguably, is not possible.

Well then, that reduces the opinion to somewhat of a pointless one in my book.


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure this is NOT (I repeat) NOT an Infinite Strings query. This is merely an open-ended question:

"Which strings library did you use in Sustenuto demo?"

You can't +1 that.


----------



## Evans

What if the +1 thing is reverse psychology and we should actually be asking every day?


----------



## Toecutter

I like music said:


> Someone wanna ask him? Worth a +1 I reckon...


I already annoyed Fluffy for the day, anyone else please shoot Aaron a message...

But we can all agree that the brass and winds sound fantastic in the Sustineo demo? If there's one guy who can get this right is Aaron. "I still believe"


----------



## I like music

Evans said:


> What if the +1 thing is reverse psychology and we should actually be asking every day?


Drunk or high? :D


----------



## Tralen

I like music said:


> @aaronventure this is NOT (I repeat) NOT an Infinite Strings query. This is merely an open-ended question:
> 
> "Which strings library did you use in Sustenuto demo?"
> 
> You can't +1 that.


Now that you called it "Sustenuto" we will get another +6 months!


----------



## Evans

I like music said:


> Drunk or high? :D


Lead paint.


----------



## I like music

Tralen said:


> Now that you called it "Sustenuto" we will get another +6 months!


Oh shit! Oh well, I'm going to have to leave it there and not do a dirty edit.


----------



## DANIELE

I remember in the past he used other libraries to complement IB and IW in some demos, I don't remembere where. I think there is the same, he will not use the library until is out.


----------



## Akora

Evans said:


> What if the +1 thing is reverse psychology and we should actually be asking every day?


Don't you dare put that evil upon us


----------



## Jish

I like music said:


> Someone wanna ask him? Worth a +1 I reckon...


Similar question was already posed many, many pages ago in this very thread- however, we never received an answer....making it a yet, _unsolved sample mystery_....


----------



## I like music

Jish said:


> Similar question was already posed many, many pages ago in this very thread- however, we never received an answer....making it a yet, _unsolved sample mystery_....


You don't just poke a bear once! You have to do it repeatedly in order to get mauled!!!


----------



## Denkii

I'd say Dmitry's comment about IS ending up sub par was a smart way to trigger Aaron's pride and getting him to finally releasing an IS snippet.
Do it...do it do it do it...


----------



## Toecutter

DANIELE said:


> I remember in the past he used other libraries to complement IB and IW in some demos, I don't remembere where. I think there is the same, he will not use the library until is out.


I can't wait for his response saying it's either AM or SM. It's not like I can possibly look more stupid than usual so whatever #donttagme #pleasebeIS


----------



## RogiervG

Mr. Venture, provide us some Audio examples/snippets or IS is a lie  

*don't hit me, i made a joke...*


----------



## Toecutter

RogiervG said:


> Mr. Venture, provide us some Audio examples/snippets or IS is a lie


Excerpt from the recording sessions



Prove me wrong!


----------



## pierrevigneron

Look at the right, down, he uses two libs for layering them


----------



## RogiervG

Toecutter said:


> Excerpt from the recording sessions
> 
> 
> 
> Prove me wrong!



beautiful tone, very good legatos (even for a recording session). those tree mics sound very good.


----------



## ManOn1st

Well, I'm tapped out guys, gotta fold 'em...spent most of my IS strings budget shoring up other aspects of my library while waiting...my money was burning a hole in my pocket and some other spring deals came up, lol! Well, you know how it goes... 

Wishfully hoping for a nice and deep intro discount for current customers given the wait  Else, I'll see you guys on black friday!


----------



## Woodie1972

Owners of IB or IW can buy IS for $299 instead of the regular $399.


----------



## Loïc D

Toecutter said:


> Excerpt from the recording sessions
> 
> 
> 
> Prove me wrong!



See what happens when you use sample libraries ! Inconsistencies everywhere.


----------



## Akora

Woodie1972 said:


> Owners of IB or IW can buy IS for $299 instead of the regular $399.


I couldn't find an answer to this, but does Aaron ever have any sales on his products? Like a special launch price for the full IW+IB+IS bundle when the strings come out perhaps?
Or is the biggest saving to get the current bundle and then crossgrade the strings?


----------



## Dan

Yes, there are occasional sales. Last year in April when IB 1.4 came out, there was a sale with 20% off. In October there also was a 2nd Anniversary Sale with 25% off for the IW/IB bundle.

So I would be surprised if IS came out without a sale.


----------



## DivingInSpace

mussnig said:


> I never thought it was IS. Same as I wouldn't assume that he is using IP here ...


I am going to assume that he is using IP here, just for the sake of it.


----------



## FireGS

Just to calm everyone down a bit, last time I talked to Aaron, and asked him the status of IS, he said it was going well, but nothing was really playable yet. That was in February. It's not IS in those demos. IP isn't even being recorded yet.


----------



## doctoremmet

Ahhhhh.....













That was calming!


----------



## doctoremmet

(sorry about that, my wallet had grabbed my phone there for a second)


----------



## martingeyer

I remember Aaron sent me an email saying he usually uses Cinematic studio strings in the demos and he also mentioned Spitfire symphonic strings. I also want infinite strings very much, please.


----------



## DANIELE

martingeyer said:


> I remember Aaron sent me an email saying he usually uses Cinematic studio strings in the demos and he also mentioned Spitfire symphonic strings. I also want infinite strings very much, please.


I remember also Aaron did a mixing course about Spitifire libraries. Anyway I think IS still need a lot of time to be seen. Maybe after the summer if you live in the Boreal Emisphere.

Let's hope he will surprise us all.


----------



## ModalRealist

If it can do repeating slurred 16th note patterns at Presto (and I bet it will be able to, because IW and IB sure can) then I’d be pretty fine with a synth-y-ish feel. Frankly, there are barely any string sample libraries which sound to me like the real thing in action,no matter how good the tone when listening to a single chord.

If it can also do convincing fast detache to get that driving up-and-down-bow vibe then I will be in heaven.


----------



## I like music

Reckon this could be a 2022 thing?


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I like music said:


> Reckon this could be a 2022 thing?


Don't tempt him.


----------



## Jamus

ModalRealist said:


> If it can do repeating slurred 16th note patterns at Presto (and I bet it will be able to, because IW and IB sure can) then I’d be pretty fine with a synth-y-ish feel. Frankly, there are barely any string sample libraries which sound to me like the real thing in action,no matter how good the tone when listening to a single chord.
> 
> If it can also do convincing fast detache to get that driving up-and-down-bow vibe then I will be in heaven.


Agreed. I mean samples sound good doing the thing each individual patch is designed to do, but beyond that you can tell it's all chopped up and unnatural. Modelling is the way, I'm convinced of it 👍


----------



## PerryD

Kind of crazy that the US has dropped mask wearing. Immediately made me think of Disneyland crowds, near where I grew up. Did a few bars from the Pirates of the Carribean ride using IB brass and woodwinds. Stupid song is still in my head after 40+ years...


----------



## ModalRealist

PerryD said:


> Kind of crazy that the US has dropped mask wearing. Immediately made me think of Disneyland crowds, near where I grew up. Did a few bars from the Pirates of the Carribean ride using IB brass and woodwinds. Stupid song is still in my head after 40+ years...



See this is why so love IW and IB (and @PerryD’s programming with most instruments, or course!): it doesn’t sound like Le Epic Film Orchestra in Le Epic Cathedral Concert Hall in an Ice Cavern Exclusive Space... it simply sounds just enough like a bunch of real musicians in front of some mics or other that you could be listening - if you don’t squint too much - to a bunch of musicians playing.

And what else should a mock-up even be? There’s a reason everyone records live players, even if it’s then overdubbed with extra samples.


----------



## PerryD

ModalRealist said:


> See this is why so love IW and IB (and @PerryD’s programming with most instruments, or course!): it doesn’t sound like Le Epic Film Orchestra in Le Epic Cathedral Concert Hall in an Ice Cavern Exclusive Space... it simply sounds just enough like a bunch of real musicians in front of some mics or other that you could be listening - if you don’t squint too much - to a bunch of musicians playing.
> 
> And what else should a mock-up even be? There’s a reason everyone records live players, even if it’s then overdubbed with extra samples.


Thank you. I have fun. As a "real" trumpet player, I really appreciate instruments that respond well to a breath controller.


----------



## Terry93D

I like music said:


> Reckon this could be a 2022 thing?


I mean being real it seems more likely than not.


----------



## Composer 2021

2022 is...next year. What happened to time?


----------



## El Buhdai

Composer 2021 said:


> 2022 is...next year. What happened to time?



It has a pretty annoying habit of only moving in one direction.


----------



## Trash Panda

El Buhdai said:


> It has a pretty annoying habit of only moving in one direction.


Only for those who haven’t figured out how to use the remote control.


----------



## Woodie1972

Being aware of the risk with my question, that IS release is now +1 month, is there any news on the IB 1.6 update?


----------



## vicontrolu

Like nobody was wondering...


----------



## Akora

Woodie1972 said:


> Being aware of the risk with my question, that IS release is now +1 month, is there any news on the IB 1.6 update?


Well, following the percentage calculations from previous posters, combined with Aaron's own mention of it being 95% done from a while back, the estimate completion of IB 1.6 should now be about 99.9995875% by my calculations. We are likely working with an exponential function here.


----------



## Getsumen

To get the best quality out of the infinite series, they must pack as much infinity as they can, therefore requiring an infinite amount of time.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Getsumen said:


> To get the best quality out of the infinite series, they must pack as much infinity as they can, therefore requiring an infinite amount of time.


With our luck, Aaron will abide by this methodology down to the letter.


----------



## Trash Panda

Maybe he’s sneaking in the fabled 4th large hall venue into this update? If not, he’ll at least have to comment now to avoid the rumor train from gathering steam.


----------



## El Buhdai

Trash Panda said:


> Maybe he’s sneaking in the fabled 4th large hall venue into this update? If not, he’ll at least have to comment now to avoid the rumor train from gathering steam.


I see what you're doing there. Cheeky.


----------



## Getsumen

Trash Panda said:


> Maybe he’s sneaking in the fabled 4th large hall venue into this update? If not, he’ll at least have to comment now to avoid the rumor train from gathering steam.


I heard the library actually has 5 new IR's, Poly Legato, A wordbuilder (First string library to ever have one. Groundbreaking stuff), and auto divisi


----------



## Tralen

Getsumen said:


> I heard the library actually has 5 new IR's, Poly Legato, A wordbuilder (First string library to ever have one. Groundbreaking stuff), and auto divisi


I demoed the wordbuilder with the pizzicato, I had the cellos say "bar" and the basses say "tók".


----------



## Bollen

Oh man... You guys crack me up!


----------



## DANIELE

I love when you guys start posting again, it always feels like something is going to happen, then nothing happens but at least we hoped for a while.


----------



## ChristianM

this thread is infinite…


----------



## decredis

ChristianM said:


> this thread is infinite…


It's true. I'm not even keyswitching to type this post, I'm just thinking thoughts, blowing into a breath controller, and pedalling away on an expression pedal.


----------



## vicontrolu

It would be cool if anyone has the time to upload some naked trombone solo parts (and midi maybe) to compare them to the 1.6 once its out. 

Just another idea to keep the thread alive and useful. If I have time I'll give it a stab tomorrow


----------



## Terry93D

I've got my fingers crossed that we'll get lucky and there'll be a flugelhorn with 1.6.


----------



## Tralen

Terry93D said:


> I've got my fingers crossed that we'll get lucky and there'll be a flugelhorn with 1.6.


I would certainly love a Flugel. I still use my old one from VSL, purchased in 2011.


----------



## aaronventure

No new instruments in 1.6.

If I could sum up Brass 1.6, it would be "Low Brass Refresh and New Horn Mics". I have included the ditched instrument mic for horns in the form of a switch, so you can get the really nice detail if you wish. You just click the Close/Inst label in the mixer and switch back and forth between close and inst. mics. Works while mixed mic is enabled, too, and the mixes change accordingly.

All trombones got a bit of a tone refresh, mostly in the form of remixed IRs/spaces, they'll now sound snappier and have much less low-mid buildup in the tail. Also, the low end behavior has been massively improved and legato has been updated for all instruments. 

The update is in the final stages of testing. I want to make sure the phasing issue a couple of users have experienced is 100% gone.


----------



## DANIELE

Hi Aaron, in the end something happened. 

Are you planning to work on a WW update too? About the little flaws experienced by some users.

Thank you.


----------



## aaronventure

Of course.


----------



## Batrawi

...so when the strings will come out?


----------



## doctoremmet

Since today already brought me the instabuy moments for Tracktion f ‘em and Straightahead Samples Tenor Colossus (after getting BHCT yesterday) it would be ironic for them to be released later today.

While I’m broke.


----------



## Batrawi

doctoremmet said:


> Since today already brought me the instabuy moments for Tracktion f ‘em and Straightahead Samples Tenor Colossus (after getting BHCT yesterday) it would be ironic for them to be released later today.
> 
> While I’m broke.


no worries ma friend... that's why I asked the question so that ur wallet gets a +1 month at least to recover


----------



## doctoremmet

Batrawi said:


> no worries ma friend... that's why I asked the question so that ur wallet gets a +1 month at least to recover


Phew... I see what you did there.., appreciated pal


----------



## Batrawi

...meanwhile these HR Strings sound so good (to my ears even better than something like SM or Simulation strings) but what keeps me from buying is the steep price and absence of transparent walkthroughs by the developer.. don't know how long I'll be able to resist so really hope it shouldn't be too far for Aaron to release the strings...


----------



## Tralen

Batrawi said:


> ...meanwhile these HR Strings sound so good (to my ears even better than something like SM or Simulation strings) but what keeps me from buying is the steep price and absence of transparent walkthroughs by the developer.. don't know how long I'll be able to resist so really hope it shouldn't be too far for Aaron to release the strings...



$550...

And I couldn't even find which instruments are included.


----------



## ansthenia

Batrawi said:


> ...meanwhile these HR Strings sound so good (to my ears even better than something like SM or Simulation strings) but what keeps me from buying is the steep price and absence of transparent walkthroughs by the developer.. don't know how long I'll be able to resist so really hope it shouldn't be too far for Aaron to release the strings...



Great sound! But yeah, too much of a blind buy, not enough info.


----------



## Batrawi

Tralen said:


> $550...
> 
> And I couldn't even find which instruments are included.


yep, these kinds of things and the lack of walkthroughs is what makes one so skeptical... that guy in the video seemed so happy though and so were my ears 😄 but not yet to the extent of gambling with $550..


----------



## Woodie1972

There's also a 'black edition', can't find what the difference with the HR strings is, but have to admit I didn't look that thoroughly.


----------



## DANIELE

Well at least those videos show how much more developers are moving in that direction and that the technology to make this happen is already here.


----------



## Batrawi

Woodie1972 said:


> There's also a 'black edition', can't find what the difference with the HR strings is, but have to admit I didn't look that thoroughly.


from what I understood from the videos is that black only consists of those 5 (?) violins instances and a patch of solo cello with viola overlay (in the higher registers)... the full version contains those and full-sized ensembles as well. again that's what I understood and don't know if there are official/documented info to support that


----------



## John R Wilson

Hopefully Infinite strings is due for release soon. Been awaiting these for a while. Maybe the strings will get released alongside the Brass update.


----------



## vicontrolu

Damn..those HR strings sound really good and look really playable!


----------



## DANIELE

John R Wilson said:


> Hopefully Infinite strings is due for release soon. Been awaiting these for a while. Maybe the strings will get released alongside the Brass update.


I highly doubt it, I think we still have a few months to wait for the release.


----------



## I like music

What's HR Strings?


----------



## Terry93D

I like music said:


> What's HR Strings?








HR Sounds – Instrument made by professionals for professionals







hrsounds.com


----------



## I like music

Terry93D said:


> HR Sounds – Instrument made by professionals for professionals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hrsounds.com


Thank you! Interesting. Not totally enamoured by the sound, but then my frame of reference with this kind of playing of the instrument is super limited.


----------



## Woodie1972

Based on the demos one would think they aim at the Bollywood style and sound. Of course they should be able to be used in more orchestral music, but there was no demo that went really that way, at least not one of the >15 I listened to, nor in the video of the guy demonstrating the library.


----------



## Batrawi

yeah but this HR strings, Sim. strings and SM strings are all meant to set what we might expect from Infinit strings, since they all seem to share a very similar concept... but yeah I do hope Aaron can come up with something better, even though I think it would only be slightly better since the approach itself has its limitation (in tone) as we can all tell...


----------



## ModalRealist

Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but having watched some of the video demos of HR Strings on YouTube, it's not obvious to me that they are Infinite/SM/AM-style, judging by the patch names, but I might be wrong! I found videos of the demos here, with some showing of the Kontakt interface: https://www.youtube.com/user/raidmarji/videos

Edit: having looked at a few more videos, I think there are some pretty playable patches in there! Clearly there's a lot of sample manipulation going on to achieve legatos etcetera. Not quite the sound I'd be hoping for from Infinite Strings, but definitely a cool sound.


----------



## Getsumen

Funny how this has somehow become a HR thread lol.

and yeah I definitely agree that sound is definitely... not for me. Doesn't sound remotely like real strings, but it's still something interesting ig. Almost sounds like the default Kontakt portamento script trying to curve the pitches between notes.

Really confused as to how someone would spend over 500 on this one ngl. 

example for off sounding transitions (at least for me): 

Anyway how did we get here again? lol


----------



## Jamus

I'm just lurking waiting for any mention, just a teensy-weensy, itty-bitty wee little mention of IS. Just a little one 🤏


----------



## Soundbed

Getsumen said:


> I definitely agree that sound is definitely... not for me


But according to the website they are “the most realistic strings you will ever hear”.


----------



## Batrawi

Soundbed said:


> But according to the website they are “the most realistic strings you will ever hear”.


according to the website these strings are the "most" in everything... litterally😄! But I found them important to mention here alongside SM and Sim strings, since these are the only 3 libraries thay I know of that seem to have a base-approach like the yet to come IS.... so they are relevant for our speculation/musing until Aaron gives us..


Jamus said:


> just a teensy-weensy, itty-bitty wee little mention of IS.


----------



## vicontrolu

hr strings sound gorgeous. Sure, a very processed sound but still supernice. I wouldnt mind having a pop/modern IR or preset in IS


----------



## Woodie1972

Batrawi said:


> according to the website these strings are the "most" in everything... litterally😄! But I found them important to mention here alongside SM and Sim strings, since these are the only 3 libraries thay I know of that seem to have a base-approach like the yet to come IS.... so they are relevant for our speculation/musing until Aaron gives us..


What are these so-called *Sim Strings* I sometimes read about? When I googeled on that term I came across software developing software (or something like that) and a real string ensemble and things like that.


----------



## Batrawi

Woodie1972 said:


> What are these so-called *Sim Strings* I sometimes read about? When I googeled on that term I came across software developing software (or something like that) and a real string ensemble and things like that.


----------



## Bollen

Batrawi said:


>



Interesting.... . Never heard of these before...


----------



## DANIELE

Bollen said:


> Interesting.... . Never heard of these before...


I listened to them but they have something that is not fully convincing me.


----------



## Bollen

DANIELE said:


> I listened to them but they have something that is not fully convincing me.


Don't they all...?


----------



## Toecutter

DANIELE said:


> I listened to them but they have something that is not fully convincing me.


Yea still not for me but certainly a major improvement over their Hybrid Strings.


----------



## Tralen

Batrawi said:


>



What this video really shows is that the developer is an _amazing_ player.


----------



## Batrawi

DANIELE said:


> I listened to them but they have something that is not fully convincing me.


Unlike brass & winds, all strings with hybrid sampling/modeling techniques that are available in the market to date do have a very obvious weird sound. Of course they're all incredibly playable but how I rate their tones from worse to better is as follows:
-CH Ens. Strings (totally forgot about this one)
-Sim. Strings
-SM Strings
-HR Strings

And that's basically how my wait & hope is building up for Infinite Strings.. I hope they'll improve the tone a notch or two in this category


----------



## Tralen

Batrawi said:


> Unlike brass & winds, all strings with hybrid sampling/modeling techniques that are available in the market to date do have a very obvious weird sound. Of course they're all incredibly playable but how I rate their tones from worse to better is as follows:
> -CH Ens. Strings (totally forgot about this one)
> -Sim. Strings
> -SM Strings
> -HR Strings
> 
> And that's basically how my wait & hope is building up for Infinite Strings.. I hope they'll improve the tone a notch or two in this category


Do you really think the tone of CH Strings is worse than HR Strings? Can you elaborate?

(Serious question, I don't have any of these and was interested in CH).


----------



## DANIELE

Bollen said:


> Don't they all...?


Well, actually AV libraries convince me a lot, let's say 95% but maybe even 99%. With the incoming updates I think I'll go up to 99,99%. It is enough for me.


----------



## DANIELE

Batrawi said:


> Unlike brass & winds, all strings with hybrid sampling/modeling techniques that are available in the market to date do have a very obvious weird sound. Of course they're all incredibly playable but how I rate their tones from worse to better is as follows:
> -CH Ens. Strings (totally forgot about this one)
> -Sim. Strings
> -SM Strings
> -HR Strings
> 
> And that's basically how my wait & hope is building up for Infinite Strings.. I hope they'll improve the tone a notch or two in this category


Yeah but SM is working on a big update too.


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> Well, actually AV libraries convince me a lot, let's say 95% but maybe even 99%. With the incoming updates I think I'll go up to 99,99%. It is enough for me.


And when you're just in the zone, fully immersed in the music you're not even thinking about whether those strings are real or not anyway 👍👍


----------



## Batrawi

Tralen said:


> Do you really think the tone of CH Strings is worse than HR Strings? Can you elaborate?


absolutely I think they are worse, but that's what "my ears" are telling me, so not sure how to elaborate this in words but I can recommend you to check this walkthrough, and let me know what you think... especially @8:30... I honestly never heard anything worse than that.. this thing sounds more like a sin child of an accordion and a harmonica


----------



## doctoremmet

Batrawi said:


> absolutely I think they are worse, but that's what "my ears" are telling me, so not sure how to elaborate this in words but I can recommend you to check this walkthrough, and let me know what you think... especially @8:30... I honestly never heard anything worse than that.. this thing sounds more like a sin child of an accordion and a harmonica



Wait. I thought you hated 8Dio Intimate Studio Strings even more


----------



## SirKen

Batrawi said:


> absolutely I think they are worse, but that's what "my ears" are telling me, so not sure how to elaborate this in words but I can recommend you to check this walkthrough, and let me know what you think... especially @8:30... I honestly never heard anything worse than that.. this thing sounds more like a sin child of an accordion and a harmonica



I find that libraries like Chris Hein are very flexible and this means that it is very easy to make them sound terrible if you don't know what you are doing. I can tell that he was riding that modwheel hard in this video.


----------



## Batrawi

doctoremmet said:


> Wait. I thought you hated 8Dio Intimate Studio Strings even more


naaah, these are purely sample-based after all, and they do actually sound sweet. I particularly hated their shorts though.


----------



## aaronventure




----------



## DANIELE

Batrawi said:


> absolutely I think they are worse, but that's what "my ears" are telling me, so not sure how to elaborate this in words but I can recommend you to check this walkthrough, and let me know what you think... especially @8:30... I honestly never heard anything worse than that.. this thing sounds more like a sin child of an accordion and a harmonica



CH Ens Strings are all another concept, I think that they shouldn't be compared with AV IS, SM Strings and so on. CHS library use the more classic KS approach with some new interesting concept to be more playable but you have to use KS anyway.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


>



Wait, am I listening to IS? 

IB 1.6 sounds great anyway!!!!


----------



## Getsumen

aaronventure said:


>



Oh man that sounds incredible.


----------



## Christianus

DANIELE said:


> Wait, am I listening to IS?
> 
> IB 1.6 sounds great anyway!!!!


+1 month


----------



## doctoremmet

aaronventure said:


>



.....
whoa

Nice one @aaronventure !


----------



## FireGS

Tone sounds great, and this mockup is seriously awesome, but it sounds _really_ compressed. Like, 10:1, or 20:1 compression ratio. What's up with that, @aaronventure ?


----------



## ansthenia

aaronventure said:


>



Sounds super thin and awful, what the hell you playing at dude

EDIT: oops my bad I had my audio coming out in mono, wow sounds amazing!


----------



## Batrawi

aaronventure said:


>



how & when the heck did that slip in? Infinite Sneak... sounds great!


----------



## Evans

Knowing Aaron, this was also played live. All instruments at once. While baking some bread.


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


>



Very nice! Is that Infinite Guitars I hear in there?


----------



## aaronventure

FireGS said:


> sounds _really_ compressed


On the master, there's a MU shaving 2-3 dB in the chorus. That's also where the Distressor kicks in, but that thing is only at 30% wet. There's compression all over the individual busses (low brass, horns, drums etc.). 

It's just that kind of piece; it does not sound good without the compression. Compared to the rest of the demos, this one is really smacked. Sustineo has none, this one has a decent amount. All subjective, of course. 



Trash Panda said:


> Very nice! Is that Infinite Guitars I hear in there?


Haha, it's Kontakt Factory Library. I don't have that many guitar samples and this was the first thing I grabbed and I feel it works fine. 

But I think we'll see Infinite Guitars at one point, at least in some form.


----------



## aaronventure

Evans said:


> Knowing Aaron, this was also played live.


In fact, this also served as a test to see how much easier the new legato tweaks make it to sequence Infinite Brass instead. Of course, I hold shift when I draw the notes in so they don't snap to grid and each one has its own timing and length. It's slower than playing in live, but it was all sequenced. 

And the CC line looks very simple, just a few points with curves, representing breath amount. 

Take a look at the horn, for example. 





Of course, something slower and more lyrical will need more attention, but I'm pretty happy with this development. Opens some new doors for the future of Infinite.


----------



## DANIELE

Well...guitars are stringed instruments technically speaking, soooooooooooooo....

I'll try again with my question: are you using IS or it is another sample library you own?


----------



## aaronventure

DANIELE said:


> are you using IS


IS is not ready for a public showing, and will not be for some time. When there's a demo featuring Infinite Strings, it'll be made perfectly clear in the title. Also won't be James Bond, but something that shows off its strengths. Maybe something like Vaughan Williams' 5th Symphony 3rd Mov, there's an insane amount of divisi there. 

I mean, check out the first few bars of it.





Anyway, I'm just musing, all that is still pretty far off.


----------



## DANIELE

Ok, I didn't think about a showing of IS but more like some subtle teaser. My mistake.

Thank you for clarification.

Yeah pretty good piece to show off strings all together. I don't understand why high-mid strings are named in english and low ones are in my native language. :D


----------



## FireGS

aaronventure said:


> On the master, there's a MU shaving 2-3 dB in the chorus. That's also where the Distressor kicks in, but that thing is only at 30% wet. There's compression all over the individual busses (low brass, horns, drums etc.).
> 
> It's just that kind of piece; it does not sound good without the compression. Compared to the rest of the demos, this one is really smacked. Sustineo has none, this one has a decent amount. All subjective, of course.
> 
> 
> Haha, it's Kontakt Factory Library. I don't have that many guitar samples and this was the first thing I grabbed and I feel it works fine.
> 
> But I think we'll see Infinite Guitars at one point, at least in some form.


Thanks for that reply. Take a listen to 0:35, specifically the cymbals and then the ride. Upper frequencies are kind of going haywire there, mainly due to the compression. You can hear that the sustained part of the high frequencies are actually louder than the initial transient - not sure if that's intended or not, but its making a lot of the high end in the brass sound pumpy. 



DANIELE said:


> I don't understand why high-mid strings are named in english and low ones are in my native language. :D


Da dove viene Lei?


----------



## Duncan Formosa

aaronventure said:


> IS is not ready for a public showing, and will not be for some time. When there's a demo featuring Infinite Strings, it'll be made perfectly clear in the title. Also won't be James Bond, but something that shows off its strengths. Maybe something like Vaughan Williams' 5th Symphony 3rd Mov, there's an insane amount of divisi there.
> 
> I mean, check out the first few bars of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm just musing, all that is still pretty far off.


If there was a little cry button I would have put one in lol.

But in all seriousness just wanna show some appreciation for all the work you put into these libraries. For 5 years I've been trying to write music in DAWs and I'd never finish the pieces I started because I hated the process of using the libraries and since I bought your libraries I've managed to do so much more.

So nice not stopping every 5 mins gritting my teeth going "argh I hate this." I can just play the lines and get into the mood. Just a shame my lack of mixing skills let's everything down a bit. Would love to be able to get them to sound like your demos!

Looking forward to seeing what comes next! That IB 1.6 demo had me and my three brothers jaws hit the floor.


----------



## aaronventure

Duncan Formosa said:


> Just a shame my lack of mixing skills let's everything down a bit. Would love to be able to get them to sound like your demos!


Hey Duncan, most of the demos have little to no mixing trickery. If there's anything out of the ordinary done, I described it on the webpage. Otherwise it's just an initial volume setup, and then it's CC1. This one has by far the most "production" on it.


----------



## Duncan Formosa

aaronventure said:


> Hey Duncan, most of the demos have little to no mixing trickery. If there's anything out of the ordinary done, I described it on the webpage. Otherwise it's just an initial volume setup, and then it's CC1. This one has by far the most "production" on it.


I might be over complicating my template then and botching it up. Will try re-work my template and simplify it then. Thanks!


----------



## Toecutter

aaronventure said:


>


----------



## Toecutter

Duncan Formosa said:


> But in all seriousness just wanna show some appreciation for all the work you put into these libraries. For 5 years I've been trying to write music in DAWs and I'd never finish the pieces I started because I hated the process of using the libraries and since I bought your libraries I've managed to do so much more.


This makes me really happy to read  That's what this is all about, isn't it?


----------



## Trash Panda

Anyone have a good approach to brightening up the brass without making it thin or harsh? It’s fine on its own, but any time I’m auditioning brass libraries, I notice a darker tone, which is awesome for Bloodborne type stuff, but not appropriate for more modern pieces.


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> Anyone have a good approach to brightening up the brass without making it thin or harsh? It’s fine on its own, but any time I’m auditioning brass libraries, I notice a darker tone, which is awesome for Bloodborne type stuff, but not appropriate for more modern pieces.


If a standard EQ doesn't do it for you, Slate Digital Revival (free/was free) or Soundtheory Gullfoss (not free).


----------



## Tralen

Trash Panda said:


> Anyone have a good approach to brightening up the brass without making it thin or harsh? It’s fine on its own, but any time I’m auditioning brass libraries, I notice a darker tone, which is awesome for Bloodborne type stuff, but not appropriate for more modern pieces.


I like to add a subtle tilt EQ to the Brass bus, it helps to maintain the overall balance. (I still don't own IB yet, mostly using VSL)


----------



## John Longley

Trash Panda said:


> Anyone have a good approach to brightening up the brass without making it thin or harsh? It’s fine on its own, but any time I’m auditioning brass libraries, I notice a darker tone, which is awesome for Bloodborne type stuff, but not appropriate for more modern pieces.


Not always appropriate, but try eqing into your compression. You can push the high shelf (or upper mid bell) a little further and the compressor will clamp down on harshness. You can always just run Soothe or similar, but for modern bright sound simple EQ into comp should help.


----------



## Tralen

Batrawi said:


> absolutely I think they are worse, but that's what "my ears" are telling me, so not sure how to elaborate this in words but I can recommend you to check this walkthrough, and let me know what you think... especially @8:30... I honestly never heard anything worse than that.. this thing sounds more like a sin child of an accordion and a harmonica



That was really odd, indeed.

But let's not derail the thread after Aaron's amazing demo.


----------



## I like music

That demo was insanely good! Tone great, phrasing great. Don't need any more brass libraries after this.

Aaron, does this mean release is imminent? Congratulations, 1.6 sounds fantastic!


----------



## DANIELE

FireGS said:


> Da dove viene Lei?


Vengo dall'Italia, precisamente dalla Toscana, precisamente da Firenze.  

Non c'è bisogno di darmi del Lei, va bene darmi del tu.


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> Anyone have a good approach to brightening up the brass without making it thin or harsh? It’s fine on its own, but any time I’m auditioning brass libraries, I notice a darker tone, which is awesome for Bloodborne type stuff, but not appropriate for more modern pieces.


I personally try to avoid as much as I can to do postprocessing on the instruments, I do some compression in the final mix only because of the too large dynamic range but if I'm able to avoid it on the single instrument/busses I'm happier.


----------



## Dmitry

Anyone try to use Inspirata Reverb Pro instead stock IR? Demos sounds very well.


----------



## Toecutter

I like music said:


> Don't need any more brass libraries after this.


That's a bold statement and the only reason I'm not vouching for it atm is that I'm confident IB 1.7 will be even better. Oh no just wait until 1.8... errr 1.9 will...... nope 2.0 is the one, when Aaron finally unleashes the technology to summon the Infinite players in our studios (earplugs not included). Yep that's the one I'm looking forward to XD


----------



## I like music

Toecutter said:


> That's a bold statement and the only reason I'm not vouching for it atm is that I'm confident IB 1.7 will be even better. Oh no just wait until 1.8... errr 1.9 will...... nope 2.0 is the one, when Aaron finally unleashes the technology to summon the Infinite players in our studios (earplugs not included). Yep that's the one I'm looking forward to XD


When they start unionising and and demanding to be paid? Too realistic!


----------



## Toecutter

I like music said:


> When they start unionising and and demanding to be paid? Too realistic!


That's when you know you've made it big time!


----------



## mutex

OK. I got Kontakt Full Version now. When is the AV sale happening?


----------



## Frederick

Thanks to the 1.6 demo I'm getting convinced of the possibities of Infinite Brass. If the strings are going to turn out just as well, then I guess I won't have any other choice then to buy all three. 

(I should mention I'm not in it for playability, because I have zero talent for that. So maybe it's still quite possible these libs are not suitable for someone like me.)


----------



## mussnig

Frederick said:


> (I should mention I'm not in it for playability, because I have zero talent for that. So maybe it's still quite possible these libs are not suitable for someone like me.)



Have a look at the Infinite Series thread. After with the newest demo Aaron Venture posted a screenshot which shows that he programmed some stuff in and that he wants to improve IB also for people who don't play it in.


----------



## Trash Panda

mutex said:


> OK. I got Kontakt Full Version now. When is the AV sale happening?


I’ve only seen AV do sales on Black Friday. Usually around 20%-25% off. Like the Cinematic Studio Series, he seems to focus more on the cross-product loyalty discounts once you’ve bought into the ecosystem than the constant sales others do.


----------



## DANIELE

Frederick said:


> Thanks to the 1.6 demo I'm getting convinced of the possibities of Infinite Brass. If the strings are going to turn out just as well, then I guess I won't have any other choice then to buy all three.
> 
> (I should mention I'm not in it for playability, because I have zero talent for that. So maybe it's still quite possible these libs are not suitable for someone like me.)


Playability is not meant only for the people with good piano skills, it is meant for user that wrote in midi only, the good thing about playability is that you shape everything, you don't need multy patches or keyswitches, you do everything in one track as you would do with the real instrument. This is playability, then if you have good piano skills you will benefit from it a lot more.


----------



## Bollen

I only ever use notation and I've recently added SM strings to my workflow and I have to say it's a life changer! KS are definitely an inspiration killer....

_*note: I don't use expression maps or the like, everything manually adjusted.*_


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> the good thing about playability is that you shape everything,


This is the main point anyone with questions about programming Infinite. One could easily argue that Infinite is superior for programming than traditional sample libraries because of the simple fact that every little thing you do to the MIDI data makes a difference.

Programming staccato notes for example, you can get widely varied phrasing purely based on small differences in MIDI note length and velocity. It's amazing really.

Essentially you can think of Infinite as rather than having one patch for staccato and one for staccatissimo, you simply get these articulations by adjusting the note length! Even then your 'staccato' range of length can be varied. The Waltz Of The Flowers demo is a good example.


----------



## Bollen

Jamus said:


> This is the main point anyone with questions about programming Infinite. One could easily argue that Infinite is superior for programming than traditional sample libraries because of the simple fact that every little thing you do to the MIDI data makes a difference.
> 
> Programming staccato notes for example, you can get widely varied phrasing purely based on small differences in MIDI note length and velocity. It's amazing really.
> 
> Essentially you can think of Infinite as rather than having one patch for staccato and one for staccatissimo, you simply get these articulations by adjusting the note length! Even then your 'staccato' range of length can be varied. The Waltz Of The Flowers demo is a good example.


Guys please stop! I just finished a 12 hour session with VSL and these types of messages just make me want to jump out the window...!


----------



## shawnsingh

oy, fine time for me to somehow not receive notifications on this thread for so many days...

In Aaron's demo, there were some rip-like note attacks (or were they legato transitions?) on trumpets e.g. around 1:36.

were these possible in previous versions of IB? if so, how was it programmed? Or is this a thing with 1.6?

also same question for the E-G legato on the horns around 1:21 and 1:29?

very excited for the updates!


----------



## aaronventure

shawnsingh said:


> also same question for the E-G legato on the horns around 1:21 and 1:29?


Yes, but it sounds better with legato tweaks in 1.6. Same with rips and portamentos.



shawnsingh said:


> In Aaron's demo, there were some rip-like note attacks (or were they legato transitions?) on trumpets e.g. around 1:36.


More or less, yeah, but it can be more pronounced in 1.6 because 1.6 will add adjustable pitch bend range. Pitch bend here is set to 8.


----------



## Trash Panda

@aaronventure is it possible to extend the range of instruments or are they locked into their range by the scripts used? I tried playing with the mapping editor to extend the range up to a C#5 on the alto sax, but no sound came out above the standard range.


----------



## mutex

Trash Panda said:


> @aaronventure is it possible to extend the range of instruments or are they locked into their range by the scripts used? I tried playing with the mapping editor to extend the range up to a C#5 on the alto sax, but no sound came out above the standard range.


The samples were chromatically recorded. So, no pitch shifting being used to fill out the gaps between missing samples. Pitch shifting is what would be necessary to allow extended ranges for the instrument AFAIK.


----------



## Tralen

Trash Panda said:


> @aaronventure is it possible to extend the range of instruments or are they locked into their range by the scripts used? I tried playing with the mapping editor to extend the range up to a C#5 on the alto sax, but no sound came out above the standard range.


There is that transposition system for making ensembles, perhaps that could be used to increase the range by +2/-2 semitones.


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> @aaronventure is it possible to extend the range of instruments or are they locked into their range by the scripts used? I tried playing with the mapping editor to extend the range up to a C#5 on the alto sax, but no sound came out above the standard range.


The ranges are locked. There is a way and it's a bit more convoluted. If you really want/need to do it, send me an email and I'll help you out.


----------



## PerryD

Messing with some western theme ideas. IB does a nice job, just "played in" with a BC.


----------



## FireGS

1.6 LEAK


----------



## Trash Panda

FireGS said:


> 1.6 LEAK


Oh man. You can REALLY hear the improvement in the tone. AV is a verifiable genius!


----------



## PerryD

Trash Panda said:


> Oh man. You can REALLY hear the improvement in the tone. AV is a verifiable genius!


And it is a remarkably noise free recording! Beat _that_ VSL silent stage!


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> 1.6 LEAK



...another leak!


----------



## FireGS

Batrawi said:


> ...another leak!


That's borderline inappropriate. You go on timeout. (until 1.6 is released)


----------



## DANIELE

FireGS said:


> 1.6 LEAK


Wow, the Dynamics slider seems a little bit longer, overblown incoming?


----------



## Gauss

It gives you better control over adjusting dynamics!


----------



## Consona

PerryD said:


> Messing with some western theme ideas. IB does a nice job, just "played in" with a BC.


Cool stuff! I'm listening to it on repeat. But you know the rule... What are the other libraries in the piece?

I'm totally saving my money waiting on the next IB sale. I feel like it's gonna be the only brass library I'll ever use. Aaron's great decision to re-record some stuff made it sound really good and the playability is mind-blowing, plus the continuous updates, this library is ace!


I hope it sounds as good in a solo dry context, like doing some blues or jazz. Anyone has any demos of these?


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> Wow, the Dynamics slider seems a little bit longer, overblown incoming?


It goes to 11


----------



## PerryD

Consona said:


> Cool stuff! I'm listening to it on repeat. But you know the rule... What are the other libraries in the piece?
> 
> I'm totally saving my money waiting on the next IB sale. I feel like it's gonna be the only brass library I'll ever use. Aaron's great decision to re-record some stuff made it sound really good and the playability is mind-blowing, plus the continuous updates, this library is ace!
> 
> 
> I hope it sounds as good in a solo dry context, like doing some blues or jazz. Anyone has any demos of these?


Thanks! It's a test piece at the moment. OTS Texas Twang guitar. Superior Drummer 3. NI timpani & tubular bells. IB french horns, trumpets & trombones. As a trumpet player myself, I like Samplemodeling for solo & jazz stuff.


----------



## PerryD

PerryD said:


> Messing with some western theme ideas. IB does a nice job, just "played in" with a BC.


I played real flugelhorn and trumpet short solos on this version. Man, Soundcloud throws a blanket over the hi-mids, even with a 24/48k source track. :/


----------



## PerryD

PerryD said:


> I played real flugelhorn and trumpet short solos on this version. Man, Soundcloud throws a blanket over the hi-mids, even with a 24/48k source track. :/



I watched a YT video today about SampleOne in Studio One. I used to be adept at Roland & Akai samplers in the old days. My vision sucks now, so I never really got very deep into Kontakt. I actually took one "G" from my flugelhorn track and dragged it into SampleOne. Took me back to the days of the Ensoniq Mirage. Instead of the Infinite series, I should start the "limitations" series.  One note, no loops, no legato...ah, the good old days. I'm glad people on VI-C have a sense of humor.


----------



## Jamus

PerryD said:


> I watched a YT video today about SampleOne in Studio One. I used to be adept at Roland & Akai samplers in the old days. My vision sucks now, so I never really got very deep into Kontakt. I actually took one "G" from my flugelhorn track and dragged it into SampleOne. Took me back to the days of the Ensoniq Mirage. Instead of the Infinite series, I should start the "limitations" series.  One note, no loops, no legato...ah, the good old days. I'm glad people on VI-C have a sense of humor.


Release date for Limited Strings!?


----------



## PerryD

Jamus said:


> Release date for Limited Strings!?


My wife has a violin (music teacher). I should have the violins ready for NI by tomorrow afternoon if I can record one note by then.


----------



## FireGS

PerryD said:


> My wife has a violin (music teacher). I should have the violins ready for NI by tomorrow afternoon if I can record one note by then.


So a few extra months while you "polish" the library, and go AWOL for a few weeks? 👀


----------



## Batrawi

PerryD said:


> I watched a YT video today about SampleOne in Studio One. I used to be adept at Roland & Akai samplers in the old days. My vision sucks now, so I never really got very deep into Kontakt. I actually took one "G" from my flugelhorn track and dragged it into SampleOne. Took me back to the days of the Ensoniq Mirage. Instead of the Infinite series, I should start the "limitations" series.  One note, no loops, no legato...ah, the good old days. I'm glad people on VI-C have a sense of humor.


Don't y'all think it's a good idea that we all start aggressively mailing Aaron with similar pieces so that he freaks out and rush with releasing the remaining of his Infinite series?


----------



## PerryD

Batrawi said:


> Don't y'all think it's a good idea that we all start aggressively mailing Aaron with similar pieces so that he freaks out and rush with releasing the remaining of his Infinite series?


I just thought some good natured fun would be better than, "are we there yet?!" I was showing the results of a rushed library. Art takes time!


----------



## Batrawi

PerryD said:


> I just thought some good natured fun would be better than, "are we there yet?!" I was showing the results of a rushed library. Art takes time!


I was just being sarcastic.. in fact I did enjoy the piece very much and it drew a smile on my face! I wouldn't have enjoyed it that much had it been done with something like IB 😄... the sound of this LB (Limited Brass) is an integral part of such kind of joyful/funny compositions... so keep'em coming 🙂


----------



## Tralen

@PerryD, When will Limited Brass be available? Does it offer a crossgrade for Infinite Brass? Do I still qualify if I only have the Hampered version or do I need the full Handicapped version?


----------



## PerryD

Tralen said:


> @PerryD, When will Limited Brass be available? Does it offer a crossgrade for Infinite Brass? Do I still qualify if I only have the Hampered version or do I need the full Handicapped version?


There will be an early adopter 10% discount. Followed in two weeks by a 90% off flash sale.


----------



## Batrawi

Tralen said:


> @PerryD, When will Limited Brass be available? Does it offer a crossgrade for Infinite Brass?


I heard that those who own LB will have pay a crossgrade amount that costs more than IB's regular price itself


----------



## Tralen

PerryD said:


> There will be an early adopter 10% discount. Followed in two weeks by a 90% off flash sale.


For Infinite Brass? Nice! I'm certain Aaron will approve this.


----------



## PerryD

Tralen said:


> For Infinite Brass? Nice! I'm certain Aaron will approve this.


I should retract my comments and go into my vocal booth until my drugs wear off.


----------



## Trash Panda

Tralen said:


> @PerryD, When will Limited Brass be available? Does it offer a crossgrade for Infinite Brass? Do I still qualify if I only have the Hampered version or do I need the full Handicapped version?


Forget Limited Brass! You can achieve the same sound with Xpand! 2 and some EQ.


----------



## Jazzaria

Tralen said:


> @PerryD, When will Limited Brass be available? Does it offer a crossgrade for Infinite Brass? Do I still qualify if I only have the Hampered version or do I need the full Handicapped version?


Not sure about release, but here's a demo track I found -


----------



## DivingInSpace

Trash Panda said:


> Forget Limited Brass! You can achieve the same sound with Xpand! 2 and some EQ.


Don't mess with Xpand! 2. No library has paid for itself as many times as that one for me.


----------



## doctoremmet

Yeah, I second this. No jokes about Xpand! My precious little rompler with way too good sounds for its specs. Everyone should own it and will find a use for it.


----------



## Ziffles

Jazzaria said:


> Not sure about release, but here's a demo track I found -



I'm really digging the micing of these brass. It feels like I'm really sitting in front of computer speakers.


----------



## Jamus

doctoremmet said:


> Yeah, I second this. No jokes about Xpand! My precious little rompler with way too good sounds for its specs. Everyone should own it and will find a use for it.


What is that synth in your display picture? It looks like fm8 but evidently is not.


----------



## doctoremmet

Jamus said:


> What is that synth in your display picture? It looks like fm8 but evidently is not.


My new toy: Tracktion f ‘em!


----------



## I like music

I'm less interested in Infinite Strings and more interested in Definite Strings.


----------



## Mikro93

I like music said:


> I'm less interested in Infinite Strings and more interested in Definite Strings.


Why not both?
I n d e f i n i t e S t r i n g s


----------



## I like music

Mikro93 said:


> Why not both?
> I n d e f i n i t e S t r i n g s


Haha, amazing!


----------



## Jish

DivingInSpace said:


> Don't mess with Xpand! 2. No library has paid for itself as many times as that one for me.





doctoremmet said:


> Yeah, I second this. No jokes about Xpand! My precious little rompler with way too good sounds for its specs. Everyone should own it and will find a use for it.


Guys, uh...I thought we mentioned at the Xpand Composer's bi-monthly society that no further mention of this....'synth', would be made in public- this came from the big cheese himself, straight from the top.

Nobody's gotta know...._no-body_...


----------



## doctoremmet

Jish said:


> Guys, uh...I thought we mentioned at the Xpand Composer's bi-monthly society that no further mention of this....'synth', would be made in public- this came from the big cheese himself, straight from the top.
> 
> Nobody's gotta know...._no-body_...


----------



## Jamus

doctoremmet said:


> My new toy: Tracktion f ‘em!


Omg I want it 😲


I like music said:


> I'm less interested in Infinite Strings and more interested in Definite Strings.


I'd settle for Confirmed-Release-Date Strings 😭


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> Omg I want it 😲
> 
> I'd settle for Confirmed-Release-Date Strings 😭


+1nfinite Strings


----------



## ansthenia

There should be a cheaper version of these libraries, that are more limiting, called finite brass and finite winds.


----------



## Jamus

ansthenia said:


> There should be a cheaper version of these libraries, that are more limiting, called finite brass and finite winds.


I cannot even begin to imagine how little RAM these Finite instruments would use given that Infinite is already next to nothing 😂


----------



## shawnsingh

infinite curves can fill a finite space, but it's possible to create infinite sequences of finite things. So I don't think we can assume that Finite Instruments will take less memory than IB and IW.


----------



## doctoremmet

shawnsingh said:


> infinite curves can fill a finite space, but it's possible to create infinite sequences of finite things


----------



## Tralen

shawnsingh said:


> infinite curves can fill a finite space, but it's possible to create infinite sequences of finite things. So I don't think we can assume that Finite Instruments will take less memory than IB and IW.


They should take all memory that Infinite _doesn't _take, if I'm correct. All of it.


----------



## mussnig

When naming the libraries Infinite Brass/WWs/Strings/Percussion, did Aaron mean countably infite or uncountably infinite instruments? Also, do we assume the continuum hypothesis to be true?


----------



## I like music

Ah crap. I'm on my laptop and I need to redownload the 2.0 woodwinds. The trick of downloading from the original purchase link isn't working (redirects to a page that doesn't exist).

What's the best way to redownload, does anyone know? Do I have to ask fastspring for a new link?


----------



## DivingInSpace

I like music said:


> Ah crap. I'm on my laptop and I need to redownload the 2.0 woodwinds. The trick of downloading from the original purchase link isn't working (redirects to a page that doesn't exist).
> 
> What's the best way to redownload, does anyone know? Do I have to ask fastspring for a new link?


Write Aaron a mail


----------



## Tralen

Can anyone that owns IW share an excerpt of each of the saxes playing by itself?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Trash Panda

Tralen said:


> Can anyone that owns IW share an excerpt of each of the saxes playing by itself?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Sure. Got a MIDI file or something specific you want to hear?


----------



## philthevoid

Tralen said:


> Can anyone that owns IW share an excerpt of each of the saxes playing by itself?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


You could ask the Aaron man himself:


----------



## Tralen

philthevoid said:


> You could ask the Aaron man himself:



I watched the walkthrough (over and over, actually), but it goes over the saxes a bit fast.


----------



## Tralen

Trash Panda said:


> Sure. Got a MIDI file or something specific you want to hear?


I don't want to give you trouble. I will record a midi line on the EWI tomorrow and post it here (it is almost midnight!). Thanks, Panda.


----------



## mutex

mussnig said:


> When naming the libraries Infinite Brass/WWs/Strings/Percussion, did Aaron mean countably infite or uncountably infinite instruments?


Aleph-Zero infinity of course. I guess the other infinities just consume too much RAM.


----------



## aaronventure

mussnig said:


> When naming the libraries Infinite Brass/WWs/Strings/Percussion, did Aaron mean countably infite or uncountably infinite instruments?


Yes.


----------



## Tralen

Trash Panda said:


> Sure. Got a MIDI file or something specific you want to hear?


Here is the MIDI file from the EWI, it is a bit dirty, but it is already set to IWs default CCs.

If anyone wants to give it a try with another instrument, please do!

Thanks!


----------



## Trash Panda

Tralen said:


> Here is the MIDI file from the EWI, it is a bit dirty, but it is already set to IWs default CCs.
> 
> If anyone wants to give it a try with another instrument, please do!
> 
> Thanks!


Here you go. No processing at all and out of the box settings on each. Only alteration I made was transposing notes into a proper octave for each instrument.

No idea how it's supposed to sound, so I didn't adjust the MIDI, but typically higher velocities are used for fast legatos, so some parts may sound a little off.


----------



## Tralen

Trash Panda said:


> Here you go. No processing at all and out of the box settings on each. Only alteration I made was transposing notes into a proper octave for each instrument.
> 
> No idea how it's supposed to sound, so I didn't adjust the MIDI, but typically higher velocities are used for fast legatos, so some parts may sound a little off.


Thanks a lot!

I wanted to know how it would come out played straight from the EWI, so that was perfect. I can tell I would need to adjust a lot of my playing, it is much more sensitive than I was expecting (specially the legato and growl).


----------



## Jamus

Tralen said:


> Thanks a lot!
> 
> I wanted to know how it would come out played straight from the EWI, so that was perfect. I can tell I would need to adjust a lot of my playing, it is much more sensitive than I was expecting (specially the legato and growl).


The editing ability is quite.. Infinite 😏

No regrets for me. Infinite is my jam, and I'm excited by the thought of all future AV instruments. I want Infinite everything!


----------



## El Buhdai

I don't know if you guys remember Madness, my piece with the wild writing, but I have finally... FINALLY finished it. All brass and woodwinds are Infinite only. I'm fairly certain this piece wouldn't have been possible without Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds or an extremely wide selection of libraries, so I would like to extend a personal thank you to @aaronventure for making my dream libraries a reality.

From the piccolo all the way down to the contrabassoon, almost every traditional orchestral instrument is used at some point during the song, and almost every playing style possible (including growl) with the libraries is also utilized at least once. I hope it's done well enough that it can act as a definitive, full-ensemble demo that shows off Infinite's capabilities and pushes the libraries to their limits.

Instrument List​Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
1 Piccolo
2 Flutes
1 Alto Flute
2 Bassoons
2 Oboes
1 English Horn
1 Bass Clarinet
1 Contrabass Clarinet
1 Contrabassoon

Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
4 Trumpets
6 French Horns
2 Euphoniums
3 Tenor Trombones
1 Bass Trombone
1 Tuba

Ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to present MADNESS! If anyone's interested, I'll tell you all about the inspiration and story behind this song but this message is already getting long so I'll save it for if it someone asks.


----------



## Trash Panda

Tralen said:


> Thanks a lot!
> 
> I wanted to know how it would come out played straight from the EWI, so that was perfect. I can tell I would need to adjust a lot of my playing, it is much more sensitive than I was expecting (specially the legato and growl).


Sensitive, yet flexible and powerful. While the attached sax solo from Ghost's Miasma is by no means a perfect reproduction, I don't believe ANY straight sample library could handle this. Only modeling instruments like Infinite series and potentially SWAM/SM saxes.

View attachment Ghost Miasma Sax Solo.mp3


----------



## Markrs

El Buhdai said:


> I don't know if you guys remember Madness, my piece with the wild writing, but I have finally... FINALLY finished it. All brass and woodwinds are Infinite only. I'm fairly certain this piece wouldn't have been possible without Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds or an extremely wide selection of libraries, so I would like to extend a personal thank you to @aaronventure for making my dream libraries a reality.
> 
> From the piccolo all the way down to the contrabassoon, almost every traditional orchestral instrument is used at some point during the song, and almost every playing style possible (including growl) with the libraries is also utilized at least once. I hope it's done well enough that it can act as a definitive, full-ensemble demo that shows off Infinite's capabilities and pushes the libraries to their limits.
> 
> Instrument List​Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 2 Bassoons
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabassoon
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to present MADNESS! If anyone's interested, I'll tell you all about the inspiration and story behind this song but this message is already getting long so I'll save it for if it someone asks.


That sounded amazing, was blown away by it! Great work!


----------



## Trash Panda

El Buhdai said:


> I don't know if you guys remember Madness, my piece with the wild writing, but I have finally... FINALLY finished it. All brass and woodwinds are Infinite only. I'm fairly certain this piece wouldn't have been possible without Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds or an extremely wide selection of libraries, so I would like to extend a personal thank you to @aaronventure for making my dream libraries a reality.
> 
> From the piccolo all the way down to the contrabassoon, almost every traditional orchestral instrument is used at some point during the song, and almost every playing style possible (including growl) with the libraries is also utilized at least once. I hope it's done well enough that it can act as a definitive, full-ensemble demo that shows off Infinite's capabilities and pushes the libraries to their limits.
> 
> Instrument List​Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 2 Bassoons
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabassoon
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to present MADNESS! If anyone's interested, I'll tell you all about the inspiration and story behind this song but this message is already getting long so I'll save it for if it someone asks.


That was incredible. Thank you for sharing!


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> I don't know if you guys remember Madness, my piece with the wild writing, but I have finally... FINALLY finished it. All brass and woodwinds are Infinite only. I'm fairly certain this piece wouldn't have been possible without Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds or an extremely wide selection of libraries, so I would like to extend a personal thank you to @aaronventure for making my dream libraries a reality.
> 
> From the piccolo all the way down to the contrabassoon, almost every traditional orchestral instrument is used at some point during the song, and almost every playing style possible (including growl) with the libraries is also utilized at least once. I hope it's done well enough that it can act as a definitive, full-ensemble demo that shows off Infinite's capabilities and pushes the libraries to their limits.
> 
> Instrument List​Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 2 Bassoons
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabassoon
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to present MADNESS! If anyone's interested, I'll tell you all about the inspiration and story behind this song but this message is already getting long so I'll save it for if it someone asks.


It's a shame not to hear IS too in this piece. Make sure you will once IS is out.


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> It's a shame not to hear IS too in this piece. Make sure you will once IS is out.


We're all going to have a lot of string reprogramming to do when IS drops 😂😂


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> I don't know if you guys remember Madness, my piece with the wild writing, but I have finally... FINALLY finished it. All brass and woodwinds are Infinite only. I'm fairly certain this piece wouldn't have been possible without Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds or an extremely wide selection of libraries, so I would like to extend a personal thank you to @aaronventure for making my dream libraries a reality.
> 
> From the piccolo all the way down to the contrabassoon, almost every traditional orchestral instrument is used at some point during the song, and almost every playing style possible (including growl) with the libraries is also utilized at least once. I hope it's done well enough that it can act as a definitive, full-ensemble demo that shows off Infinite's capabilities and pushes the libraries to their limits.
> 
> Instrument List​Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 2 Bassoons
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabassoon
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to present MADNESS! If anyone's interested, I'll tell you all about the inspiration and story behind this song but this message is already getting long so I'll save it for if it someone asks.


Story behind it please?

Also would love to hear about the mix details if you are willing?

The piece really remind me of Kachaturian especially near the end around 4:30... Classic accelerando mayhem with dancing brass and polka rhythm. Love it!


----------



## Batrawi

..ok I'll ask the question a bit differently (and I hope it's fair not to apply the +1 month penalty here): @aaronventure , do you still see this picture somehow accurate?


----------



## Jamus

Batrawi said:


> ..ok I'll ask the question a bit differently (and I hope it's fair not to apply the +1 month penalty here): @aaronventure , do you still see this picture somehow accurate?


Playing with fire 😂


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> Story behind it please?


WARNING: This story gets a little personal

Here's the story. It started as my first orchestral piece, hence the strange strings melody at the beginning which doesn't follow any common scale. That melody was actually my amateur attempt at runs, which as you can tell I later learned how to write as I made the song. I chose the name Madness simply because the writing was kind of strange due to how new I was to orchestral music. A lot of the first half of the song was written when I was a total beginner to composing, but it was a lot more barebones since I didn't have Infinite Brass/Woodwinds or the writing capabilities to pull the song off. I was given some very harsh feedback from a more experienced composer on the piece at the time, and on the opposite end, I was given the equally disappointing "compliment" that I would never make anything that could top this piece even though it was only my first (spoiler alert: I've written many things that are better than this piece was at the time, though maybe now it is my best piece).

Fast forward to the release of Infinite Brass 1.5 and I tested Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds on the piece after letting it collect dust for a couple of years. This was when I did a major overhaul to the song which had initially been written entirely with Hollywood Orchestra.

Fast forward to Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 and I did an even more extensive overhaul to the piece with the new tone improvements. That was around the time I started the second half of the piece where it gets really quiet again for the second buildup. Right after writing most of that buildup, I had an intense mental break and almost ended my life. Prior to this, suicide had never even been a thought of mine no matter how bad things got. I didn't make music or do much of anything for months, but I eventually mostly recovered my mental state. Something seemed to have broken for good though. I no longer feared death and medication was the only thing keeping me sane.

Fast forward again to a week or so ago, and my mental health issues came back again after a pretty major stressor. I made a very serious attempt on my life after things just started building up one after the other (much like the buildup in the second half of of the song ironically where the madness never truly goes away but just fades into the background). Mind you, I had never truly ditched my suicidal ideation after my first mental break, it just faded into the background as an option for whenever things get too tough, hence the madness melody remaining present during even the really quiet parts of the second buildup.

Madness had crept its way into my mental state and finishing this piece had become a mission of mine, a therapy of sorts. I was no longer just writing a fun song about a crazy adventure where I pull out every writing trick I know, I was now writing Madness as an expression of the state of my mental health over the past 6+ months. That's when I started injecting all sorts of meaning into each part of the piece and I think it became truly unique and special because of it.

The entirety of the creation process of Madness has been full of pain, rejection, and disappointment from multiple people and life events, and I think that's what has made it such a special piece for me, and ultimately what drove me to make it so, well... mad! And I think that continuing to work on it after all the pain, rejection, and disappointment involved in the creation process of the song has made me a much stronger person. And in case anyone was worried, I'm now almost entirely free of my suicidal thoughts after a lot of very, very hard work on my mental health. Finishing Madness after around 4 years of on and off writing also helped in no small measure.

Thank you so much for allowing me to share this story and I hope you enjoyed reading it.

P.S.: As for the mix, point me towards some things you'd be interested in knowing and I can get started sharing it with you that way.


----------



## Consona

Vortioxetin + Alprazolam. 

@El Buhdai I hope you'll share more of your music! It's way better than what we get in movies these days.

Can't wait to get the money together and buy IB, nothing I have can come even close when it comes to handling the truly musical stuff I want to write. Normal sample libraries feel so stiff and awkward.


----------



## Markrs

El Buhdai said:


> WARNING: This story gets a little personal
> 
> Here's the story. It started as my first orchestral piece, hence the strange strings melody at the beginning which doesn't follow any common scale. That melody was actually my amateur attempt at runs, which as you can tell I later learned how to write as I made the song. I chose the name Madness simply because the writing was kind of strange due to how new I was to orchestral music. A lot of the first half of the song was written when I was a total beginner to composing, but it was a lot more barebones since I didn't have Infinite Brass/Woodwinds or the writing capabilities to pull the song off. I was given some very harsh feedback from a more experienced composer on the piece at the time, and on the opposite end, I was given the equally disappointing "compliment" that I would never make anything that could top this piece even though it was only my first (spoiler alert: I've written many things that are better than this piece was at the time, though maybe now it is my best piece).
> 
> Fast forward to the release of Infinite Brass 1.5 and I tested Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds on the piece after letting it collect dust for a couple of years. This was when I did a major overhaul to the song which had initially been written entirely with Hollywood Orchestra.
> 
> Fast forward to Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 and I did an even more extensive overhaul to the piece with the new tone improvements. That was around the time I started the second half of the piece where it gets really quiet again for the second buildup. Right after writing most of that buildup, I had an intense mental break and almost ended my life. Prior to this, suicide had never even been a thought of mine no matter how bad things got. I didn't make music or do much of anything for months, but I eventually mostly recovered my mental state. Something seemed to have broken for good though. I no longer feared death and medication was the only thing keeping me sane.
> 
> Fast forward again to a week or so ago, and my mental health issues came back again after a pretty major stressor. I made a very serious attempt on my life after things just started building up one after the other (much like the buildup in the second half of of the song ironically where the madness never truly goes away but just fades into the background). Mind you, I had never truly ditched my suicidal ideation after my first mental break, it just faded into the background as an option for whenever things get too tough, hence the madness melody remaining present during even the really quiet parts of the second buildup.
> 
> Madness had crept its way into my mental state and finishing this piece had become a mission of mine, a therapy of sorts. I was no longer just writing a fun song about a crazy adventure where I pull out every writing trick I know, I was now writing Madness as an expression of the state of my mental health over the past 6+ months. That's when I started injecting all sorts of meaning into each part of the piece and I think it became truly unique and special because of it.
> 
> The entirety of the creation process of Madness has been full of pain, rejection, and disappointment from multiple people and life events, and I think that's what has made it such a special piece for me, and ultimately what drove me to make it so, well... mad! And I think that continuing to work on it after all the pain, rejection, and disappointment involved in the creation process of the song has made me a much stronger person. And in case anyone was worried, I'm now almost entirely free of my suicidal thoughts after a lot of very, very hard work on my mental health. Finishing Madness after around 4 years of on and off writing also helped in no small measure.
> 
> Thank you so much for allowing me to share this story and I hope you enjoyed reading it.
> 
> P.S.: As for the mix, point me towards some things you'd be interested in knowing and I can get started sharing it with you that way.


Thank you for sharing this @El Buhdai I am very pleased to hear you are now much recovered.


----------



## Tralen

El Buhdai said:


> WARNING: This story gets a little personal
> 
> Here's the story. It started as my first orchestral piece, hence the strange strings melody at the beginning which doesn't follow any common scale. That melody was actually my amateur attempt at runs, which as you can tell I later learned how to write as I made the song. I chose the name Madness simply because the writing was kind of strange due to how new I was to orchestral music. A lot of the first half of the song was written when I was a total beginner to composing, but it was a lot more barebones since I didn't have Infinite Brass/Woodwinds or the writing capabilities to pull the song off. I was given some very harsh feedback from a more experienced composer on the piece at the time, and on the opposite end, I was given the equally disappointing "compliment" that I would never make anything that could top this piece even though it was only my first (spoiler alert: I've written many things that are better than this piece was at the time, though maybe now it is my best piece).
> 
> Fast forward to the release of Infinite Brass 1.5 and I tested Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds on the piece after letting it collect dust for a couple of years. This was when I did a major overhaul to the song which had initially been written entirely with Hollywood Orchestra.
> 
> Fast forward to Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 and I did an even more extensive overhaul to the piece with the new tone improvements. That was around the time I started the second half of the piece where it gets really quiet again for the second buildup. Right after writing most of that buildup, I had an intense mental break and almost ended my life. Prior to this, suicide had never even been a thought of mine no matter how bad things got. I didn't make music or do much of anything for months, but I eventually mostly recovered my mental state. Something seemed to have broken for good though. I no longer feared death and medication was the only thing keeping me sane.
> 
> Fast forward again to a week or so ago, and my mental health issues came back again after a pretty major stressor. I made a very serious attempt on my life after things just started building up one after the other (much like the buildup in the second half of of the song ironically where the madness never truly goes away but just fades into the background). Mind you, I had never truly ditched my suicidal ideation after my first mental break, it just faded into the background as an option for whenever things get too tough, hence the madness melody remaining present during even the really quiet parts of the second buildup.
> 
> Madness had crept its way into my mental state and finishing this piece had become a mission of mine, a therapy of sorts. I was no longer just writing a fun song about a crazy adventure where I pull out every writing trick I know, I was now writing Madness as an expression of the state of my mental health over the past 6+ months. That's when I started injecting all sorts of meaning into each part of the piece and I think it became truly unique and special because of it.
> 
> The entirety of the creation process of Madness has been full of pain, rejection, and disappointment from multiple people and life events, and I think that's what has made it such a special piece for me, and ultimately what drove me to make it so, well... mad! And I think that continuing to work on it after all the pain, rejection, and disappointment involved in the creation process of the song has made me a much stronger person. And in case anyone was worried, I'm now almost entirely free of my suicidal thoughts after a lot of very, very hard work on my mental health. Finishing Madness after around 4 years of on and off writing also helped in no small measure.
> 
> Thank you so much for allowing me to share this story and I hope you enjoyed reading it.
> 
> P.S.: As for the mix, point me towards some things you'd be interested in knowing and I can get started sharing it with you that way.


Stay strong.

Your music is marvelous and the world is much better with you in it.


----------



## El Buhdai

Thank you all for the love and support. It really means the world to me. You guys have no idea how good it feels to be supported like this by my fellow composers. Mental health is very important and I hope if any of you have any similar issues you won't hesitate to shoot me a private message.


----------



## Loïc D

That would be a shame to miss such a wonderful music.
Stay motivated and keep ip the good work.


----------



## Trash Panda

@El Buhdai and @DANIELE, the sound you have gotten out of IB and IW has inspired me to dig back into tone wrangling these libraries and potentially killing any leftover GAS that’s been percolating for more brass libraries.

Early results with PBJ using the AR1 emulation I built in Breeze and the studio IR with mix mic 5 are very promising. I might hit you up for ideas on what kind of spaces you place them into if that’s ok.


----------



## Jamus

Hi, my name is Jamus and uh, I'm a gearaholic. It's been a year since my last vst library purchase and I really think with Infinite I can take back control of my bank account. 🎺📯🎷


----------



## Loïc D

Hi Jamus,
I started as a teenager by buying EWQLSO Silver. I was weak at the time.


----------



## Toecutter

El Buhdai said:


> I don't know if you guys remember Madness, my piece with the wild writing, but I have finally... FINALLY finished it. All brass and woodwinds are Infinite only. I'm fairly certain this piece wouldn't have been possible without Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds or an extremely wide selection of libraries, so I would like to extend a personal thank you to @aaronventure for making my dream libraries a reality.
> 
> From the piccolo all the way down to the contrabassoon, almost every traditional orchestral instrument is used at some point during the song, and almost every playing style possible (including growl) with the libraries is also utilized at least once. I hope it's done well enough that it can act as a definitive, full-ensemble demo that shows off Infinite's capabilities and pushes the libraries to their limits.
> 
> Instrument List​Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 2 Bassoons
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabassoon
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to present MADNESS! If anyone's interested, I'll tell you all about the inspiration and story behind this song but this message is already getting long so I'll save it for if it someone asks.


Well done lad, reading the story behind the piece while listening to it was touching. Glad you found a catalyst in music, please keep sharing! 

The fast phrase 2:00 in the piece is a fine example of IB's flexibility and why I keep recommending it to anyone starting fresh... what other library can pull this off so well and effortlessly?


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> @El Buhdai and @DANIELE, the sound you have gotten out of IB and IW has inspired me to dig back into tone wrangling these libraries and potentially killing any leftover GAS that’s been percolating for more brass libraries.
> 
> Early results with PBJ using the AR1 emulation I built in Breeze and the studio IR with mix mic 5 are very promising. I might hit you up for ideas on what kind of spaces you place them into if that’s ok.


Sure!!


----------



## shawnsingh

El Buhdai said:


> WARNING: This story gets a little personal
> 
> Here's the story. It started as my first orchestral piece, hence the strange strings melody at the beginning which doesn't follow any common scale. That melody was actually my amateur attempt at runs, which as you can tell I later learned how to write as I made the song. I chose the name Madness simply because the writing was kind of strange due to how new I was to orchestral music. A lot of the first half of the song was written when I was a total beginner to composing, but it was a lot more barebones since I didn't have Infinite Brass/Woodwinds or the writing capabilities to pull the song off. I was given some very harsh feedback from a more experienced composer on the piece at the time, and on the opposite end, I was given the equally disappointing "compliment" that I would never make anything that could top this piece even though it was only my first (spoiler alert: I've written many things that are better than this piece was at the time, though maybe now it is my best piece).
> 
> Fast forward to the release of Infinite Brass 1.5 and I tested Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds on the piece after letting it collect dust for a couple of years. This was when I did a major overhaul to the song which had initially been written entirely with Hollywood Orchestra.
> 
> Fast forward to Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 and I did an even more extensive overhaul to the piece with the new tone improvements. That was around the time I started the second half of the piece where it gets really quiet again for the second buildup. Right after writing most of that buildup, I had an intense mental break and almost ended my life. Prior to this, suicide had never even been a thought of mine no matter how bad things got. I didn't make music or do much of anything for months, but I eventually mostly recovered my mental state. Something seemed to have broken for good though. I no longer feared death and medication was the only thing keeping me sane.
> 
> Fast forward again to a week or so ago, and my mental health issues came back again after a pretty major stressor. I made a very serious attempt on my life after things just started building up one after the other (much like the buildup in the second half of of the song ironically where the madness never truly goes away but just fades into the background). Mind you, I had never truly ditched my suicidal ideation after my first mental break, it just faded into the background as an option for whenever things get too tough, hence the madness melody remaining present during even the really quiet parts of the second buildup.
> 
> Madness had crept its way into my mental state and finishing this piece had become a mission of mine, a therapy of sorts. I was no longer just writing a fun song about a crazy adventure where I pull out every writing trick I know, I was now writing Madness as an expression of the state of my mental health over the past 6+ months. That's when I started injecting all sorts of meaning into each part of the piece and I think it became truly unique and special because of it.
> 
> The entirety of the creation process of Madness has been full of pain, rejection, and disappointment from multiple people and life events, and I think that's what has made it such a special piece for me, and ultimately what drove me to make it so, well... mad! And I think that continuing to work on it after all the pain, rejection, and disappointment involved in the creation process of the song has made me a much stronger person. And in case anyone was worried, I'm now almost entirely free of my suicidal thoughts after a lot of very, very hard work on my mental health. Finishing Madness after around 4 years of on and off writing also helped in no small measure.
> 
> Thank you so much for allowing me to share this story and I hope you enjoyed reading it.
> 
> P.S.: As for the mix, point me towards some things you'd be interested in knowing and I can get started sharing it with you that way.


Well part of me feels guilty to have put you on the spot asking you to share this deeply personal back story, but at the same time thanks for sharing. Wish you and everyone good health. It's funny how a mode of expression can also be a lifeline for triumphing over difficulties.

For mix, would be happy to know what IRs you used from infinite library, and any EQ/reverb/other post processing, maybe a bit about your thought process behind those decisions?

Cheers and thanks for sharing!


----------



## El Buhdai

shawnsingh said:


> Well part of me feels guilty to have put you on the spot asking you to share this deeply personal back story, but at the same time thanks for sharing. Wish you and everyone good health. It's funny how a mode of expression can also be a lifeline for triumphing over difficulties.
> 
> For mix, would be happy to know what IRs you used from infinite library, and any EQ/reverb/other post processing, maybe a bit about your thought process behind those decisions?
> 
> Cheers and thanks for sharing!


Oh don't feel guilty. I wanted to share because I feel like, aside from the composition itself, the story behind the piece is what makes it one of the more noteworthy things I've done. I was actually _hoping_ someone would be interested in hearing such a deeply personal tale on a public forum, so thanks for giving it a read. 

As for the mix, all brass are in Mozarteum and I believe they're routed to a bit of extra reverb from EastWest Spaces II. Finally, for the last bit of air, I add a basic delay built into FL Studio with very early timing to simulate early reflections. Depending on the instrument I highpass, lowpass, or bandpass the delayed output and stagger the reflections by a few milliseconds depending on where the instruments are in the room. If you're not careful with how you tweak this it can sound like a standard delay, but if you do it right and tune it slightly differently for each brass instrument (and other highly resonant instruments like the piccolo for instance), it really makes things sound airy and spacious. The difference is small on each individual section, but it really adds up, especially when it's finally sent to Spaces II.

Prior to using this trick, I thought the IB/WW convolution sounded nearly perfect, but now I can't live without those simulated early reflections.

In addition, I'm still using the trick where I turn on mixed mic for each instrument in each brass section and place them on slightly different numbers for increased depth and dimension. For instance, if I have 6 French Horns, I'd turn on mixed mic for each one and I might set the horns like so:

Horn 1 - Mic position 2
Horn 2 - Mic position 2
Horn 3 - Mic position 3
Horn 4 - Mic Position 4
Horn 5 - Mic Position 3
Horn 6 - Mic Position 4

With this configuration, you have two horns up front for detail, 2 in the middle for body, and two in the back for air and space. The resulting sound is very good to my ears.

I do the same for the trumpets and will sometimes do it for trombones too, but for trombones, pitchiness is a better way to achieve a natural sound as the IB trombones are too clean for such a notoriously difficult instrument to keep on pitch.

Finally, I hit each instrument with a tiny bit of pitch shift (especially for french horns and trombones), particularly leaning towards the flat range for some of the extra character I hear in recordings and aggressively reduce the attack accuracy (especially for french horns and trumpets) for some added player struggle on relatively difficult passages.

All of these tweaks exist in Madness but are relatively toned down at this time (which probably explains the synthiness in some places). I still have to hit it with a final mix. I have another piece that makes full use of my tweaked versions of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds.

I've posted an example of my mix with all of my tweaks compared to IB out of the box. You can decide which you like better, but I prefer my mix. The audio clip will also include the same passage with my tweaks in a fully orchestrated context. This example sounds even less synthy/more natural than Madness, which frankly despite my best efforts still has some very synthy moments during certain climaxes.

P.S.: Don't be fooled. The horns don't sound so grand on their own. They're doubling Euphoniums in this example.


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> Prior to using this trick, I thought the IB/WW convolution sounded nearly perfect, but now I can't live without those simulated early reflections.


Could you tell me more about this delay trick?


----------



## shawnsingh

Do you use regular delay + FL Studio stereo delay, or literally just a basic delay that delays L and R channels the same amount?

(For any non-FL Studio folks - the stereo delay in FL Studio allows adjusting the relative delay between L and R channels, which works like a way of delay panning. Vienna Ensemble Pro has a matrix mixer feature that can work the same way, or Voxengo Sound Delay.)


----------



## mussnig

El Buhdai said:


> Oh don't feel guilty. I wanted to share because I feel like, aside from the composition itself, the story behind the piece is what makes it one of the more noteworthy things I've done. I was actually _hoping_ someone would be interested in hearing such a deeply personal tale on a public forum, so thanks for giving it a read.
> 
> As for the mix, all brass are in Mozarteum and I believe they're routed to a bit of extra reverb from EastWest Spaces II. Finally, for the last bit of air, I add a basic delay built into FL Studio with very early timing to simulate early reflections. Depending on the instrument I highpass, lowpass, or bandpass the delayed output and stagger the reflections by a few milliseconds depending on where the instruments are in the room. If you're not careful with how you tweak this it can sound like a standard delay, but if you do it right and tune it slightly differently for each brass instrument (and other highly resonant instruments like the piccolo for instance), it really makes things sound airy and spacious. The difference is small on each individual section, but it really adds up, especially when it's finally sent to Spaces II.
> 
> Prior to using this trick, I thought the IB/WW convolution sounded nearly perfect, but now I can't live without those simulated early reflections.
> 
> In addition, I'm still using the trick where I turn on mixed mic for each instrument in each brass section and place them on slightly different numbers for increased depth and dimension. For instance, if I have 6 French Horns, I'd turn on mixed mic for each one and I might set the horns like so:
> 
> Horn 1 - Mic position 2
> Horn 2 - Mic position 2
> Horn 3 - Mic position 3
> Horn 4 - Mic Position 4
> Horn 5 - Mic Position 3
> Horn 6 - Mic Position 4
> 
> With this configuration, you have two horns up front for detail, 2 in the middle for body, and two in the back for air and space. The resulting sound is very good to my ears.
> 
> I do the same for the trumpets and will sometimes do it for trombones too, but for trombones, pitchiness is a better way to achieve a natural sound as the IB trombones are too clean for such a notoriously difficult instrument to keep on pitch.
> 
> Finally, I hit each instrument with a tiny bit of pitch shift (especially for french horns and trombones), particularly leaning towards the flat range for some of the extra character I hear in recordings and aggressively reduce the attack accuracy (especially for french horns and trumpets) for some added player struggle on relatively difficult passages.
> 
> All of these tweaks exist in Madness but are relatively toned down at this time (which probably explains the synthiness in some places). I still have to hit it with a final mix. I have another piece that makes full use of my tweaked versions of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds.
> 
> I've posted an example of my mix with all of my tweaks compared to IB out of the box. You can decide which you like better, but I prefer my mix. The audio clip will also include the same passage with my tweaks in a fully orchestrated context. This example sounds even less synthy/more natural than Madness, which frankly despite my best efforts still has some very synthy moments during certain climaxes.
> 
> P.S.: Don't be fooled. The horns don't sound so grand on their own. They're doubling Euphoniums in this example.


Do you also use some special EQ settings?


----------



## Loïc D

Actually, I love all the renditions but your mixes have more of that Hollywood feeling.
This is truly an incredible demo for Infinite series, very impressive.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Oh don't feel guilty. I wanted to share because I feel like, aside from the composition itself, the story behind the piece is what makes it one of the more noteworthy things I've done. I was actually _hoping_ someone would be interested in hearing such a deeply personal tale on a public forum, so thanks for giving it a read.
> 
> As for the mix, all brass are in Mozarteum and I believe they're routed to a bit of extra reverb from EastWest Spaces II. Finally, for the last bit of air, I add a basic delay built into FL Studio with very early timing to simulate early reflections. Depending on the instrument I highpass, lowpass, or bandpass the delayed output and stagger the reflections by a few milliseconds depending on where the instruments are in the room. If you're not careful with how you tweak this it can sound like a standard delay, but if you do it right and tune it slightly differently for each brass instrument (and other highly resonant instruments like the piccolo for instance), it really makes things sound airy and spacious. The difference is small on each individual section, but it really adds up, especially when it's finally sent to Spaces II.
> 
> Prior to using this trick, I thought the IB/WW convolution sounded nearly perfect, but now I can't live without those simulated early reflections.
> 
> In addition, I'm still using the trick where I turn on mixed mic for each instrument in each brass section and place them on slightly different numbers for increased depth and dimension. For instance, if I have 6 French Horns, I'd turn on mixed mic for each one and I might set the horns like so:
> 
> Horn 1 - Mic position 2
> Horn 2 - Mic position 2
> Horn 3 - Mic position 3
> Horn 4 - Mic Position 4
> Horn 5 - Mic Position 3
> Horn 6 - Mic Position 4
> 
> With this configuration, you have two horns up front for detail, 2 in the middle for body, and two in the back for air and space. The resulting sound is very good to my ears.
> 
> I do the same for the trumpets and will sometimes do it for trombones too, but for trombones, pitchiness is a better way to achieve a natural sound as the IB trombones are too clean for such a notoriously difficult instrument to keep on pitch.
> 
> Finally, I hit each instrument with a tiny bit of pitch shift (especially for french horns and trombones), particularly leaning towards the flat range for some of the extra character I hear in recordings and aggressively reduce the attack accuracy (especially for french horns and trumpets) for some added player struggle on relatively difficult passages.
> 
> All of these tweaks exist in Madness but are relatively toned down at this time (which probably explains the synthiness in some places). I still have to hit it with a final mix. I have another piece that makes full use of my tweaked versions of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds.
> 
> I've posted an example of my mix with all of my tweaks compared to IB out of the box. You can decide which you like better, but I prefer my mix. The audio clip will also include the same passage with my tweaks in a fully orchestrated context. This example sounds even less synthy/more natural than Madness, which frankly despite my best efforts still has some very synthy moments during certain climaxes.
> 
> P.S.: Don't be fooled. The horns don't sound so grand on their own. They're doubling Euphoniums in this example.


Are you using IW in this example (I mean in the full orchestrated part)?


----------



## Consona

El Buhdai said:


> Oh don't feel guilty. I wanted to share because I feel like, aside from the composition itself, the story behind the piece is what makes it one of the more noteworthy things I've done. I was actually _hoping_ someone would be interested in hearing such a deeply personal tale on a public forum, so thanks for giving it a read.
> 
> As for the mix, all brass are in Mozarteum and I believe they're routed to a bit of extra reverb from EastWest Spaces II. Finally, for the last bit of air, I add a basic delay built into FL Studio with very early timing to simulate early reflections. Depending on the instrument I highpass, lowpass, or bandpass the delayed output and stagger the reflections by a few milliseconds depending on where the instruments are in the room. If you're not careful with how you tweak this it can sound like a standard delay, but if you do it right and tune it slightly differently for each brass instrument (and other highly resonant instruments like the piccolo for instance), it really makes things sound airy and spacious. The difference is small on each individual section, but it really adds up, especially when it's finally sent to Spaces II.
> 
> Prior to using this trick, I thought the IB/WW convolution sounded nearly perfect, but now I can't live without those simulated early reflections.
> 
> In addition, I'm still using the trick where I turn on mixed mic for each instrument in each brass section and place them on slightly different numbers for increased depth and dimension. For instance, if I have 6 French Horns, I'd turn on mixed mic for each one and I might set the horns like so:
> 
> Horn 1 - Mic position 2
> Horn 2 - Mic position 2
> Horn 3 - Mic position 3
> Horn 4 - Mic Position 4
> Horn 5 - Mic Position 3
> Horn 6 - Mic Position 4
> 
> With this configuration, you have two horns up front for detail, 2 in the middle for body, and two in the back for air and space. The resulting sound is very good to my ears.
> 
> I do the same for the trumpets and will sometimes do it for trombones too, but for trombones, pitchiness is a better way to achieve a natural sound as the IB trombones are too clean for such a notoriously difficult instrument to keep on pitch.
> 
> Finally, I hit each instrument with a tiny bit of pitch shift (especially for french horns and trombones), particularly leaning towards the flat range for some of the extra character I hear in recordings and aggressively reduce the attack accuracy (especially for french horns and trumpets) for some added player struggle on relatively difficult passages.
> 
> All of these tweaks exist in Madness but are relatively toned down at this time (which probably explains the synthiness in some places). I still have to hit it with a final mix. I have another piece that makes full use of my tweaked versions of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds.
> 
> I've posted an example of my mix with all of my tweaks compared to IB out of the box. You can decide which you like better, but I prefer my mix. The audio clip will also include the same passage with my tweaks in a fully orchestrated context. This example sounds even less synthy/more natural than Madness, which frankly despite my best efforts still has some very synthy moments during certain climaxes.
> 
> P.S.: Don't be fooled. The horns don't sound so grand on their own. They're doubling Euphoniums in this example.


That demo






Can't believe this is possible with a fricking sample library. @aaronventure You are a wizard!

(I'm frustrated again I can't resell all that expensive junk I have on my hard drive.)

Btw, what pitch shifter do you use? Never occurred to me to use such plugin on orchestral instruments.


----------



## doctoremmet

Consona said:


> That demo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't believe this is possible with a fricking sample library. @aaronventure You are a wizard!
> 
> (I'm frustrated again I can't resell all that expensive junk I have on my hard drive.)
> 
> Btw, what pitch shifter do you use? Never occurred to me to use such plugin on orchestral instruments.


Love the reply. And as a lover of GIFs, love the GIF.


----------



## Jamus

mussnig said:


> Do you also use some special EQ settings?


I was wondering this also. I can definitely hear a difference between the mixes. Els mix is mad thick, which I think complements Infinite a great deal it seems. I simply must know how this works! 🤘


----------



## martingeyer

Does anyone use infinite libraries with Dorico? Does it work nicely?
I have the infinite libraries and was thinking about changing from Finale to Dorico. 
Infinite series is amazing and I hope to see IS soon.


----------



## jamwerks

I might have to pick-up the WW-Brass bundle! Maybe a Summer sale?


----------



## Consona

I've managed to get the money together, once there's a sale I'm buying IB. 
Maybe the rest of the libraries later.

I was waiting for the new line of CineBrass, but there's no more any reason for that. It will never do what IB can.


----------



## jamwerks

IB is already awesome but wouldn't mind if it had both a Flugelhorn and a Cornet.


----------



## Woodie1972

martingeyer said:


> Does anyone use infinite libraries with Dorico? Does it work nicely?
> I have the infinite libraries and was thinking about changing from Finale to Dorico.
> Infinite series is amazing and I hope to see IS soon.


Yes, I do use them in Dorico. You can choose from two different settings in the expression map: modwheel+velocity or modwheel only. Both do have its pro's and cons and let me try to explain what my experience with these settings are:
1) modwheel+velocity: Dorico will change the velocity values of the notes according to the dynamics entered in the score once you hit playback. This has the advantage that the attack of the note is more or less fixed for the used dynamics. Downside can be that the notes are starting to slow, so you get sloppy playback. Of course this can be fixed in the playback window, or even with a tool in Kontakt to lower/heighten maximum velocity.
2) modwheel only: Dorico changes all velocities to 100 once you hit playback. This is good for loud passages, but with soft(er) lines this will result in fp notes or only tenuto notes. Again, this can be changed in the playback window to fit your idea. 

Personally I prefer option 1 as this gives you less tweaking than option 2, but that's a personal thing.


----------



## Consona

Consona said:


> I was waiting for the new line of CineBrass, but there's no more any reason for that. It will never do what IB can.


Or do you think companies like CineSamples or Spitfire will adopt some new approaches?

IB makes all of them look kinda silly...


----------



## shawnsingh

Consona said:


> Or do you think companies like CineSamples or Spitfire will adopt some new approaches?
> 
> IB makes all of them look kinda silly...


I certainly hope Infinite is just the beginning of a newer generation of libraries that play around more with workflow ideas, deep scripting, and semi modeling. May not be good for our budget, though...


----------



## Loïc D

Consona said:


> I've managed to get the money together, once there's a sale I'm buying IB.
> Maybe the rest of the libraries later.
> 
> I was waiting for the new line of CineBrass, but there's no more any reason for that. It will never do what IB can.


Same boat here.
Aaron, release the 1.6 kraken !


----------



## DANIELE

Consona said:


> Or do you think companies like CineSamples or Spitfire will adopt some new approaches?
> 
> IB makes all of them look kinda silly...


I think we are not yet at this point for the other developers, there are still a lot of musicians that use the "old style" libraries and so there is still room for selling those. Also, you have to think that developing an all new technology costs a lot of money and a lot of time and all the developers wants to be able to have enough incomes to justify the expense.
Look at Spitfire, they keep throwing out libraries but in the end under the hood it is always the same kind of technology.

That said I also hope that more devs start to think the same as AV. I prefer less libraries that cover every need I could have.
I'm curious to see what the future will bring to us and I will not go back to ks and articulations for sure.


----------



## I like music

The biggest difference between the other developers and Aaron is that they have strings 

[EDIT] strings that can't do what IS will be able to do I'm sure. But technically, it IS the biggest difference hehe.

I fear this will cost us more than just +1 month


----------



## mussnig

Consona said:


> Or do you think companies like CineSamples or Spitfire will adopt some new approaches?
> 
> IB makes all of them look kinda silly...


I don't see Spitfire releasing a sample modelling type library anytime soon. If I understand correctly, for this to work convincingly you need bone dry samples. And Spitfire is all about recording in the same halls/rooms where A list soundtracks are recorded. I still hope for them to make things more playable (extended legato being a good step in the right direction) but until now many of their libraries don’t even have consistent short note timings ... 

In my opinion the raw sound is still something were libraries like IB need to catch up, in particular when it comes to sections playing in unison (e.g. horns a4 etc.). Although it's already very good and I guess most people can't tell that it's not a live performance - however IB plays like a real instrument, so I consider it probably half-live (no pun intended) if it was played in on a midi controller (with an extra + if a breath controller is used). Then again, a good performance is obviously a key ingredient for something to sound real ...


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> The biggest difference between the other developers and Aaron is that they have strings
> 
> [EDIT] strings that can't do what IS will be able to do I'm sure. But technically, it IS the biggest difference hehe.
> 
> I fear this will cost us more than just +1 month


As long as it doesn't push back Brass 1.6. Otherwise, we got problems.


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> As long as it doesn't push back Brass 1.6. Otherwise, we got problems.


I fear it may just have done that!

BTW one random thing I thought of. Do you think the numbering system will align between the woods and brass at some point? I know that the learning that Aaron does from each update, feeds into the other products. So I'm curious if he'll ever feel that they somehow 'align'?

I'm just thinking from a new customer's perspective, what it means. @aaronventure?


----------



## vicontrolu

1.6 must be at 99.99999% now


----------



## Consona

mussnig said:


> In my opinion the raw sound is still something were libraries like IB need to catch up


I think IW needs some work, but IB sounds really good already. At least in the orchestral context. I still haven't heard any small scale jazz/bluegrass demo.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jamus said:


> Could you tell me more about this delay trick?





shawnsingh said:


> Do you use regular delay + FL Studio stereo delay, or literally just a basic delay that delays L and R channels the same amount?
> 
> (For any non-FL Studio folks - the stereo delay in FL Studio allows adjusting the relative delay between L and R channels, which works like a way of delay panning. Vienna Ensemble Pro has a matrix mixer feature that can work the same way, or Voxengo Sound Delay.)


I should clarify it's not a Haas delay or any other stereo enhancing delay. It's a standard echo style delay. Specifically, I use Fruity Delay Bank. The goal is to simulate the early reflections created by real brass instruments.

To do this, you make the feedback (echo) volume low enough to only be truly noticeable at high dynamics when the timbre of the instruments opens up. Next, you set the delay to be fast enough enough it sounds like it's bouncing off a nearby wall and not like the sort of echo you'd put on a synth. Be sure to apply different amounts of this effect to each section and make minor adjustments to the timing and volume so they're not all reflecting at the same time or strength. The timing doesn't have to be tempo synced, and probably shouldn't. Also make sure to pan the feedback to the opposite side of the hall from the whatever section you're applying it to. 

Then, depending on the instrument, you bandpass, highpass, or lowpass the echo to taste (ex: Trumpets might require a bandpass or a highpass, while a tuba's early reflections would require a lowpass filter because the brighter aspects of their sound don't resonate so much). I recommend listening to real recordings with the sound you're after to figure out what to do here. This step is crucial to making it sound like hall early reflections instead of a regular echo. 

Finally, you'll wanna glue that echo to the rest of the sound of the instrument and its convolution by dropping a hall reverb of your choice onto the end of the effects chain. I use EastWest Spaces II. This will add extra reverb and space to your early reflection (further reducing any remaining synthetic qualities), open up the soundstage of IB's convolution reverb, and make the whole thing come together nicely.

Here's an image of my trumpet preset to help you visualize those tips:






If you've done it right, you'll have a thicker, more brassy sound at higher dynamics, and a fuller, warmer sound at lower dynamics. The delay still improves things even when when the music is quieter, it just adds to the resonance and space in a very subtle way.



mussnig said:


> Do you also use some special EQ settings?


Nope! Sometimes if I need to fit a bunch into a mix I'll cut the mids on the horns a bit and cut the highs on the trumpets. But the only thing I did for that demo in regards to EQ was a slight boost to the lows on the French Horns. If you or anyone else have any more questions about my mixes, I'd be happy to answer them!


----------



## El Buhdai

Consona said:


> That demo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't believe this is possible with a fricking sample library. @aaronventure You are a wizard!
> 
> (I'm frustrated again I can't resell all that expensive junk I have on my hard drive.)
> 
> Btw, what pitch shifter do you use? Never occurred to me to use such plugin on orchestral instruments.


Thanks 

I just use the one built into FL Studio. The pitch knob that's on every plugin in the DAW


DANIELE said:


> Are you using IW in this example (I mean in the full orchestrated part)?


Of course! 

I love IW so much that I haven't even bothered with the Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition woodwinds yet despite the improved tone I heard in the announcement trailer. So yeah, I'm still Infinite Woodwinds all the way.

The fact that I was able to get the flute + piccolo runs to sound that nice in that demo was really satisfying to me considering it was less than a year ago that I thought the tone issues with the IW flutes made them unusable. They've come a long way.


----------



## ansthenia

vicontrolu said:


> 1.6 must be at 99.99999% now


He's just adding the finishing touches to the finishing touches.


----------



## Trash Panda

mussnig said:


> In my opinion the raw sound is still something were libraries like IB need to catch up, in particular when it comes to sections playing in unison (e.g. horns a4 etc.).


Have you tried combining Infinite Brass with a Precedence and Breeze? Once you find a room in Breeze that you like, holy crap these libraries sound good.


----------



## mussnig

Trash Panda said:


> Have you tried combining Infinite Brass with a Precedence and Breeze? Once you find a room in Breeze that you like, holy crap these libraries sound good.


I don't have these but I have 7H and R4 and experimented a bit. With IB the most convincing results for sections playing in unison are probably obtained by playing each instrument individually but it's still not completely the same as a number of players really recorded together in a nice room, imho. If you want to have e.g. 6 horns, then a usual sample library has an advantage in terms of workflow.

That being said, I haven't seen any traditional sample library that comes even close to the playability of IB.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> Of course!
> 
> I love IW so much that I haven't even bothered with the Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition woodwinds yet despite the improved tone I heard in the announcement trailer. So yeah, I'm still Infinite Woodwinds all the way.
> 
> The fact that I was able to get the flute + piccolo runs to sound that nice in that demo was really satisfying to me considering it was less than a year ago that I thought the tone issues with the IW flutes made them unusable. They've come a long way.


They sound really great, may I ask what you did to make them sound so good? I mean, regarding dynamics, velocities, settings and finally note lengths/midi writing.
I got very good results with my attempts but I feel like there's always something missing.



ansthenia said:


> He's just adding the finishing touches to the finishing touches.


Sometime in the past he found some bug during the final testing process, maybe this is the case. The only certainty we have is that he will give us a pristine update for an already pristine library.


----------



## vicontrolu

@El Buhdai stunning demo man! Fuck depression or whatever, you need to be here with us ! Looking forward to your next piece! Thanks


----------



## Consona

I hope @aaronventure will make some tutorials, like how did he do that Bond piece, etc.


----------



## Jamus

mussnig said:


> I don't have these but I have 7H and R4 and experimented a bit. With IB the most convincing results for sections playing in unison are probably obtained by playing each instrument individually but it's still not completely the same as a number of players really recorded together in a nice room, imho. If you want to have e.g. 6 horns, then a usual sample library has an advantage in terms of workflow.
> 
> That being said, I haven't seen any traditional sample library that comes even close to the playability of IB.


It's a trade I'm willing to make 😁


----------



## Woodie1972

El Buhdai said:


> I don't know if you guys remember Madness, my piece with the wild writing, but I have finally... FINALLY finished it. All brass and woodwinds are Infinite only. I'm fairly certain this piece wouldn't have been possible without Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds or an extremely wide selection of libraries, so I would like to extend a personal thank you to @aaronventure for making my dream libraries a reality.
> 
> From the piccolo all the way down to the contrabassoon, almost every traditional orchestral instrument is used at some point during the song, and almost every playing style possible (including growl) with the libraries is also utilized at least once. I hope it's done well enough that it can act as a definitive, full-ensemble demo that shows off Infinite's capabilities and pushes the libraries to their limits.
> 
> Instrument List​Woodwinds (Infinite Woodwinds 2.0):
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 1 Alto Flute
> 2 Bassoons
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabassoon
> 
> Brass (Infinite Brass 1.5):
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 3 Tenor Trombones
> 1 Bass Trombone
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to present MADNESS! If anyone's interested, I'll tell you all about the inspiration and story behind this song but this message is already getting long so I'll save it for if it someone asks.


Amazing demo!!!


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> Here's an image of my trumpet preset to help you visualize those tips:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you've done it right, you'll have a thicker, more brassy sound at higher dynamics, and a fuller, warmer sound at lower dynamics. The delay still improves things even when when the music is quieter, it just adds to the resonance and space in a very subtle way.


Luckily I have FL so I was able to replicate this example, and I see (hear) exactly what you mean. Subtle, but it definitely adds extra dimension to the space and noticeable thickness 👏

I have questions about your mic positions and what you do for distancing instruments. Do you go for a close mix in Infinite before adding on the delay and final reverb to glue the section together or is using mozartium no problem with this method? When dealing with the horn section for example if you use 6 horns, do you add distance simply by increasing the delay time?

Most of all I would like to know how you or anyone uses reverb? I normally chuck seventh heaven on a section master and adjust wet/dry early/late in the plugin but I know some people use a send and adjust send levels for each instrument. Either way have more benefit? I have considered setting up 2 sends, one completely early and one late reflections and using send levels to sort of have a pseudo mic positioning setup but I thought maybe I'm over complicating it.


----------



## mussnig

Jamus said:


> Luckily I have FL so I was able to replicate this example, and I see (hear) exactly what you mean. Subtle, but it definitely adds extra dimension to the space and noticeable thickness 👏
> 
> I have questions about your mic positions and what you do for distancing instruments. Do you go for a close mix in Infinite before adding on the delay and final reverb to glue the section together or is using mozartium no problem with this method? When dealing with the horn section for example if you use 6 horns, do you add distance simply by increasing the delay time?
> 
> Most of all I would like to know how you or anyone uses reverb? I normally chuck seventh heaven on a section master and adjust wet/dry early/late in the plugin but I know some people use a send and adjust send levels for each instrument. Either way have more benefit? I have considered setting up 2 sends, one completely early and one late reflections and using send levels to sort of have a pseudo mic positioning setup but I thought maybe I'm over complicating it.


In general using sends has the advantage that you will most likely need less instances of your reverb and will thus save resources. 7H is pretty light on resources though, at least in my experience.

For some time I have used the second approach you are mentioning (e.g. one reverb only early, one only late).

Now, I am just using about three different sends but each instrument will usually only be sent to one of them. Each reverb send has different settings for early/late and predelay. So each send represents a different distance. Simplifies things and it's more than good enough for my ears - composition and general handling of your VIs are way more important for the end result than some minuscule reverb adjustments.


----------



## lljfnord

jamwerks said:


> IB is already awesome but wouldn't mind if it had both a Flugelhorn and a Cornet.


Motion seconded! Flugelhorn and Cornet definitely needed in a future release.


----------



## decredis

I'm still holding out for Infinite Crumhorn, tbh.


----------



## DANIELE

mussnig said:


> In general using sends has the advantage that you will most likely need less instances of your reverb and will thus save resources. 7H is pretty light on resources though, at least in my experience.
> 
> For some time I have used the second approach you are mentioning (e.g. one reverb only early, one only late).
> 
> Now, I am just using about three different sends but each instrument will usually only be sent to one of them. Each reverb send has different settings for early/late and predelay. So each send represents a different distance. Simplifies things and it's more than good enough for my ears - composition and general handling of your VIs are way more important for the end result than some minuscule reverb adjustments.


I used to use sends but in the end I found that is even simpler to use inserts without sends at all with Precedence and Breeze, the combo is light as hell on the CPU even if I use a lot of instances and once I estabilished the right room I only have to move the instruments in Precedence if I don't like where they are. The process is light and fast.


----------



## mussnig

DANIELE said:


> I used to use sends but in the end I found that is even simpler to use inserts without sends at all with Precedence and Breeze, the combo is light as hell on the CPU even if I use a lot of instances and once I estabilished the right room I only have to move the instruments in Precedence if I don't like where they are. The process is light and fast.


How do they perform if you want to combine both wet and dry libraries?


----------



## Loïc D

DANIELE said:


> I used to use sends but in the end I found that is even simpler to use inserts without sends at all with Precedence and Breeze, the combo is light as hell on the CPU even if I use a lot of instances and once I estabilished the right room I only have to move the instruments in Precedence if I don't like where they are. The process is light and fast.


Same here, I walked back from sends because I found it hard to balance and the outcome sounds eventually less defined.
I’m no mixing expert though.
I’ve come up with putting reverbs on my busses.


----------



## DANIELE

mussnig said:


> How do they perform if you want to combine both wet and dry libraries?


They perform very well because you can always put wet libraries more in front of you and dry libraries far from you. You have many things you can tweak, if near/far is not enough you can always choose a bigger room for example, so you have no limits in what you can do.

You can use more built-in reverb in your libraries and put the instruments more in front of you if you like the sound you get with it.
For some libraries I prefer to add P&B to a dry sound, with others I do the opposite.

All of my tracks are using P&B combo.


----------



## DANIELE

Loïc D said:


> Same here, I walked back from sends because I found it hard to balance and the outcome sounds eventually less defined.
> I’m no mixing expert though.
> I’ve come up with putting reverbs on my busses.


Exactly, in the past I used to struggle a lot with balance and sends levels and I was always unhappy with the result. Now I don't even think about it.


----------



## PerryD

I got some nice Black Swamp cocobolo orchestral castanets. Experimenting with different mics. (Rode active ribbon here) Trying something Spanish sounding. Infinite Brass is _loud_ when it comes in at 00:18.  BC used on IB. Solo trumpet is real and is bit too dark through the ribbon...


----------



## PerryD

PerryD said:


> I got some nice Black Swamp cocobolo orchestral castanets. Experimenting with different mics. (Rode active ribbon here) Trying something Spanish sounding. Infinite Brass is _loud_ when it comes in at 00:18.  BC used on IB. Solo trumpet is real and is bit too dark through the ribbon...


Ha! Remixed drum corps version.


----------



## Trash Panda

OK, so I know there's been a lot of hoopla about the FFF layer on many of the brass instruments.

You know, that buzz that swoops in sounding like an endless swarm of bees fighting a cloud of hornets under the blades of an idling helicopter when you ride the mod wheel too hard? That sound.

Someone will likely mention how obvious this is, but I think I may have found a way to tame that without effecting the lower dynamics. Curious if anyone else has tried the below in some fashion and what kind of results they've gotten? I can post some examples later tonight if needed.


High shelf (analog in Neutron 3) set at around 3.2k-3.6k, -3 to -6 dB, dynamic mode engaged set to a threshold of -40 dB
On anything besides trumpets, set a low pass filter with a 6-12 dB roll off at 10k-12k.
The above two need to be part of the same plugin so the low pass pulls down when the dynamic high shelf is activated. Should be able to do it with any other EQs that offer both static and dynamic EQ, like Hornet Total EQ, FF ProQ3 and others.

This seems to my ears to do the job of taming the chainsaw that emerges from these VIs when you ride the dynamics into the red zone without muffling the tone of them at levels before the top level cuivre kicks in.

More notes: setup is using Studio IR, running through Precedence and Breeze before hitting Neutron 3 EQ.

P.S. - The French horns sound gorgeous in their upper range with CC1 at 127 doing this.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I didn't know people didn't like the top FFF layer of the brass. I personally really like it and see little problem with it. If it's too brassy, I lower the dynamics. But the problem I do have is that sometimes, at least in the horns, it feels hard to get the right balance with the right amount of brassiness; either it's too much or not enough, but often I can get good enough results for it to not be too much of a problem.

Here's a quick little something I worked on a few days ago. Not much mixing done on this. First it the original version I did and then a version with the dynamics turned up to 11 just to showcase (I should probably have to change the midi a little bit when raising it, but oh well, sounds alright either way).


----------



## duringtheafter

Jonathan Moray said:


> I didn't know people didn't like the top FFF layer of the brass. I personally really like it and see little problem with it. If it's too brassy, I lower the dynamics. But the problem I do have is that sometimes, at least in the horns, it feels hard to get the right balance with the right amount of brassiness; either it's too much or not enough, but often I can get good enough results for it to not be too much of a problem.
> 
> Here's a quick little something I worked on a few days ago. Not much mixing done on this. First it the original version I did and then a version with the dynamics turned up to 11 just to showcase (I should probably have to change the midi a little bit when raising it, but oh well, sounds alright either way).


Both sound great (albeit a bit different) to me!

It's interesting - folks complain about lack of ff or fff with other libraries, but here it's available in spades. I think the 110-127 on cc1 is where you get the buzzy sound -- but I find it _realistic _to what happens with brass instruments (anyone remember their marching band days? The ffff sounds that could come out of the brass -- hoo, boy...).

At any rate, I understand sometimes you want SUPER LOUD(!) without the buzz - but how realistic is that...? At some point it's inevitable, and a clarion forte trumpet should be enough to ride over an orchestra unless everyone else is at fff - in which case the trumpet section would have to overblow, no?

(In other libraries, their "ff" sounds like mf with the volume turned up... especially trombones. If it doesn't have that rattle, it sounds fake to my ears.)


----------



## shawnsingh

I don't know for sure, but my feeling is that professional brass players do have a certain amount of separation in controlling the brightness versus the volume level. They're naturally correlated, but I think it's possible to play fairly loudly with a pure rounded tone (but player may run out of breath more quickly I guess?). A great example is some recordings of Scheherezade movement 4, the climax of waves crashing - the trombone part there soars above the ocean orchestration with a powerful rounded tone (though the short accent notes may be played with a lot more bite).


----------



## Jamus

shawnsingh said:


> (though the short accent notes may be played with a lot more bite).


This is what I've been using the top layer for. Sort of imitating libraries like Berlin Brass where the brassy tone may on be present for a short time before what I imagine is the brass players controlling their breathing rather than blasting it for a few seconds. I'm not a brass or woodwinds player though so I'm totally keen for a real player to tell me about it 😁


----------



## Trash Panda

Cuivre (the brassy buzz) is a technique achieved by blowing a certain way, and with a French Horn changing your bell hand position. You can have a brass player hitting FFF volume with a clean sound.

I’m actually kind of surprised the cuivre is built into the dynamic layer and not an adjustable option like growl and flutter. That would let you get the edge at lower dynamics, which while not common, is possible.


----------



## duringtheafter

shawnsingh said:


> I don't know for sure, but my feeling is that professional brass players do have a certain amount of separation in controlling the brightness versus the volume level. They're naturally correlated, but I think it's possible to play fairly loudly with a pure rounded tone (but player may run out of breath more quickly I guess?). A great example is some recordings of Scheherezade movement 4, the climax of waves crashing - the trombone part there soars above the ocean orchestration with a powerful rounded tone (though the short accent notes may be played with a lot more bite).


Shawn - are you referring to this?


Because I hear cuivre kicking in on the 'bones, and then when the rest of the section comes in as well. (Perhaps I chose a poor example for what you're thinking of - it was the first one that came up on YouTube.)


----------



## I like music

duringtheafter said:


> Shawn - are you referring to this?
> 
> 
> Because I hear cuivre kicking in on the 'bones, and then when the rest of the section comes in as well. (Perhaps I chose a poor example for what you're thinking of - it was the first one that came up on YouTube.)



Never heard this before. What a piece of music!


----------



## Loïc D

I like music said:


> Never heard this before. What a piece of music!


Ha, one of my all-time favorites…
I mockuped it a bit, I shall try to pursue this effort.
The recording above is of poor quality and lacks the body of the instruments.
I’m pretty sure the actual sound of the bones is far less cuivré/buzzy than the what the recording catched.

EDIT : I remember why I didn’t work more on my mockup. It’s because I’m waiting for IB 1.6 ! Aaaaaaaron, pleaaaaaaase !


----------



## I like music

Loïc D said:


> Ha, one of my all-time favorites…
> I mockuped it a bit, I shall try to pursue this effort.
> The recording above is of poor quality and lacks the body of the instruments.
> I’m pretty sure the actual sound of the bones is far less cuivré/buzzy than the what the recording catched.
> 
> EDIT : I remember why I didn’t work more on my mockup. It’s because I’m waiting for IB 1.6 ! Aaaaaaaron, pleaaaaaaase !


I'm waiting to revamp my Goldsmith Enterprise mockup and Williams 'Adventures on Earth' one too. Both get a good amount of brass time, so yeah, 1.6 would be amazing this weekend 
Tag me when you upload it! Would love to hear the mockup.


----------



## Loïc D

I like music said:


> I'm waiting to revamp my Goldsmith Enterprise mockup and Williams 'Adventures on Earth' one too. Both get a good amount of brass time, so yeah, 1.6 would be amazing this weekend
> Tag me when you upload it! Would love to hear the mockup.


I already put 2 versions on my Soundcloud (the latter being better).
So far, brass are done with JXL, ww are IW2.0 and strings are SCS mostly.


----------



## shawnsingh

duringtheafter said:


> Shawn - are you referring to this?
> 
> 
> Because I hear cuivre kicking in on the 'bones, and then when the rest of the section comes in as well. (Perhaps I chose a poor example for what you're thinking of - it was the first one that came up on YouTube.)




Around 7:20, you feel that's cuivre? I disagree, maybe any knowledgable brass players can help clear it up please? For me, this is normal brightness from brass players playing loud. Cuivre / overblown is two notches brighter and buzzier, I think. Perhaps 8:00 in the video might be an example of that cuivre brightness, what do you think? But on the other hand maybe it could be just the clever orchestration, the way that horns and trumpets double in octaves on that high A creates a gratifying combination of overtones.

Some other links I found, trying to learn more about this:

Here's a Q&A answer at 2:10 from a euphonium player - "three physical factors"

And here's a brief discussion from some trumpet player forum. Note that "volume" can mean multiple things, i.e. loudness or amount of air flowing.

So it feels to me that yes, loud does get bright, but other ways of controlling the sound can also make things bright, whether playing loudly or not-as-loudly. Jazz trumpet tone vs classical orchestral tone is another example of this, I think.

Also, disclaimer - I'm just a strings player who shouldn't really be entitled to an opinion about brass playing. It'd be much better for pro brass players to weigh in about this question. =)


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> Never heard this before. What a piece of music!


The back story makes it even more vivid and compelling. This is a climactic point where Sinbad and crew are battling chaotic seas and crash into rocks and get shipwrecked in the middle of sea. You can hear the waves rolling and crashing, the immovable majesty of the rocks, and the struggle of the situation. On the chance you might listen to the first 3 movements, there's also superbly done motific play that makes the fourth movement even more brilliant seeing how everything ties together.

I have great memories of being placed in first chair when the pro symphony had a joint event with my high school regional orchestra, and I got to play the solos and got to experience a larger-than-usual professional venue gig as a high school student. And nowadays, it gives me chills and tears every time when I try to enact the thrilling drama and action to my kids while they hear the music.


----------



## Toecutter

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's a quick little something I worked on a few days ago. Not much mixing done on this. First it the original version I did and then a version with the dynamics turned up to 11 just to showcase (I should probably have to change the midi a little bit when raising it, but oh well, sounds alright either way).


Sounding really good Jonathan  IB F & what? I can't read the rest of the file, I get a bunch of numbers.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Toecutter said:


> Sounding really good Jonathan  IB F & what? I can't read the rest of the file, I get a bunch of numbers.


Thanks!

It's too bad that file names change when you upload and you can only see a very small portion in the preview. It happened when they moved to a new system I believe.

Either way, I had to look up the name because I couldn't remember. It's just "MH - Proof of a Hero (IB F & FFF test)".


----------



## Toecutter

Jonathan Moray said:


> Thanks!
> 
> It's too bad that file names change when you upload and you can only see a very small portion in the preview. It happened when they moved to a new system I believe.
> 
> Either way, I had to look up the name because I couldn't remember. It's just "MH - Proof of a Hero (IB F & FFF test)".


Thanks! Just wanted to confirm you didn't have another library stacked, IB sounds punchy and natural in your example, very pleasing, not a combination I often hear done right. You said "not much mixing done" but other than the natural balance of the instruments, what did you do here?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Toecutter said:


> Thanks! Just wanted to confirm you didn't have another library stacked, IB sounds punchy and natural in your example, very pleasing, not a combination I often hear done right. You said "not much mixing done" but other than the natural balance of the instruments, what did you do here?


IB can be pretty punchy - or rather, _very_ punchy.

I started this project because I wanted to try and see if I could get a large and satisfying sound out of just 4 Horns instead of the usual 6-12.

In the project, I did have another library that I used to test as a layer. But I do believe I disable it before rendering and posting. Nothing major, just another library really quiet in the background. It didn't add much to the sound.

As for mixing, the major part of the test was to try and get a bit more with and size to the sound so I used a simple delay with a short delay time (almost mimicking extra early reflections). A common trick. It was talked about a few pages back. On some of the instruments I also added a very gentle EQ with wide curves for a fuller and warmer sound.

Here's the same thing without anything other than IB; no layers, no percussion, no effects. I still think it sounds great.


----------



## Toecutter

Jonathan Moray said:


> IB can be pretty punchy - or rather, _very_ punchy.
> 
> I started this project because I wanted to try and see if I could get a large and satisfying sound out of just 4 Horns instead of the usual 6-12.
> 
> In the project, I did have another library that I used to test as a layer. But I do believe I disable it before rendering and posting. Nothing major, just another library really quiet in the background. It didn't add much to the sound.
> 
> As for mixing, the major part of the test was to try and get a bit more with and size to the sound so I used a simple delay with a short delay time (almost mimicking extra early reflections). A common trick. It was talked about a few pages back. On some of the instruments I also added a very gentle EQ with wide curves for a fuller and warmer sound.
> 
> Here's the same thing without anything other than IB; no layers, no percussion, no effects. I still think it sounds great.


Nice! Yea I find IB a bit harsh out of the box when you push it too hard, so the small tweaking you did in the previous audio (the F one) was the sweet spot for me


----------



## Markrs

duringtheafter said:


> Shawn - are you referring to this?
> 
> 
> Because I hear cuivre kicking in on the 'bones, and then when the rest of the section comes in as well. (Perhaps I chose a poor example for what you're thinking of - it was the first one that came up on YouTube.)





I like music said:


> Never heard this before. What a piece of music!


I love Rimsky Korsakov's Scheherazade so much. One of my favourite pieces of classical music of all time


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Toecutter said:


> Nice! Yea I find IB a bit harsh out of the box when you push it too hard, so the small tweaking you did in the previous audio (the F one) was the sweet spot for me


Agreed. The top 110-127 is not really for sustains if you going for a more realistic and not-overhyped sound but am instead aiming for a more pleasant and rounded tone. If you can't make it big and epic without turning it up to 11 all the time, you're doing something wrong and need to revisit your writing and orchestration.

The top is, on the other hand, amazing for the occasional accent or marcato, or if you're doing hybrid music and don't care about being too realistic to begin with then too it's great for sustains to cut through a dense mix.


----------



## PerryD

Over enthusiastic Broadway band. Mess of LaMancha. "Guys, you're over-blowing again!"


----------



## Loïc D

PerryD said:


> Over enthusiastic Broadway band. Mess of LaMancha. "Guys, you're over-blowing again!"


Sounds really like opening credits of a 60s series. Nice !


----------



## PerryD

I love doing these short style exercises. The flugelhorn is real but I think it blends pretty well with IB.


----------



## jamwerks

PerryD said:


> I love doing these short style exercises. The flugelhorn is real but I think it blends pretty well with IB.


Cool work. I must say though that the Flugelhorn and samples sound coming from totally different spaces. Maybe that was your intension?


----------



## PerryD

jamwerks said:


> Cool work. I must say though that the Flugelhorn and samples sound coming from totally different spaces. Maybe that was your intension?


Yeah, it was meant to be more up front as a solo thing. Ha! It was a late night headphone mix. I'll have to give a listen on my monitors.


----------



## oceanic714

I put together a quick and dirty snippet from John Powell's Test Drive this morning, really trying to give the instruments life by panning and keeping the dynamics below FFF as much as possible.

Forgive my musical paraphrasing, hah.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jonathan Moray said:


> IB can be pretty punchy - or rather, _very_ punchy.
> 
> I started this project because I wanted to try and see if I could get a large and satisfying sound out of just 4 Horns instead of the usual 6-12.
> 
> In the project, I did have another library that I used to test as a layer. But I do believe I disable it before rendering and posting. Nothing major, just another library really quiet in the background. It didn't add much to the sound.
> 
> As for mixing, the major part of the test was to try and get a bit more with and size to the sound so I used a simple delay with a short delay time (almost mimicking extra early reflections). A common trick. It was talked about a few pages back. On some of the instruments I also added a very gentle EQ with wide curves for a fuller and warmer sound.
> 
> Here's the same thing without anything other than IB; no layers, no percussion, no effects. I still think it sounds great.



Very warm and round. I like. 

It somehow manages to sound bigger than my 6-horn ensembles.


----------



## El Buhdai

vicontrolu said:


> @El Buhdai stunning demo man! Fuck depression or whatever, you need to be here with us ! Looking forward to your next piece! Thanks


By the way, I know I'm extraordinarily late to reply to this. I've been super busy. But this made me laugh so hard and basically made my whole week when I first read it, so thank you. It helped a lot.


----------



## campovsky

Am I first to say “woo! Brass 1.6 time!”?

woo! Brass 1.6 time!


----------



## FireGS

ITS LIVE HERE WE GO BOYS


----------



## FireGS

also..


----------



## aaronventure

I figured I could post this here as well. @Dan 's piece for ScoreRelief 2021, but with Brass 1.6.



This is more of a contextual demo for Infinite Brass, there are only 4 brass instruments in the whole piece (2 horns, 1 trumpet, 1 contrabass trombone)! The whole thing is a 27-piece ensemble.


----------



## Ziffles

Aw shit, here we go!!!



Listening to the video I can hear a marked improvement in the low brass. The 1.5 stuff sounds kinda wispy and tinny in comparison to 1.6, which sound like *BRASS* now. Cant wait for my download to finish.


----------



## DANIELE

Obviously I'm at work now and I can't try the update, now I have to suffer for the entire day until I will be back to my home studio.


----------



## DANIELE

Ziffles said:


> Aw shit, here we go!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Listening to the video I can hear a marked improvement in the low brass. The 1.5 stuff sounds kinda wispy and tinny in comparison to 1.6, which sound like *BRASS* now. Cant wait for my download to finish.



Great improvements, I can't wait to see the improvements in IW next update.


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> Great improvements, I can't wait to see the improvements in IW next update.


Fantastic improvements. Can’t wait to see IS in the next release round.


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> Fantastic improvements. Can’t wait to see IS in the next release round.


I also hope for IS to be released as soon as possible but I fear we still have to wait months for it.

In the meantime I'd like to see those little things solved in IW. I know it will take time from the IS schedule but this is the AV way, he always said that "I think it is better to keep updated what customers already have as a priority instead of leaving flaws here and there and try to sell new products".

I'm obviously on the edge because I think IB and IW are already great and I'd like to see IS more. Well, as always I'll enjoy what I already have and wait for what is to come.


----------



## Loïc D

aaronventure said:


> I figured I could post this here as well. @Dan 's piece for ScoreRelief 2021, but with Brass 1.6.
> 
> 
> 
> This is more of a contextual demo for Infinite Brass, there are only 4 brass instruments in the whole piece (2 horns, 1 trumpet, 1 contrabass trombone)! The whole thing is a 27-piece ensemble.



I totally missed this entry. 
Brilliant, congrats @Dan


----------



## Nimrod7

Aaron Venture stuff are too good not to be on Kontakt Player... :(


----------



## I like music

The brass improvements sound GREAT (from your walkthroughs). Clear difference, especially in the low stuff. Also keen to try out the trumpets in the low dynamics and see how the legato has changed. Horns sounded beautiful. Bones are a different instrument now.

No wonder Aaron was smiling when showing it off.


----------



## Max Bonsi

I can now definitely hear more punch/bite and also definition over all instruments


----------



## Jonathan Moray

This update was pretty well-timed. I saw the post right as I was finishing up a little test. I will be away for the weekend so won't have too much time to test it out, but I might have time to do a few comparisons before then.

Here's a little snippet of the Trombone solo in the track "Theater" from King Kong. I planned on doing the whole orchestra when I get my greedy hands on the strings, but until then this is all I will probably do.

The first one is 1.5.
The second one is 1.6.

Reverb disabled and run through an external one, both are EQ the same and have the exact same signal chain. Keep in mind that the change won't be that noticeable, if at all, between the two since most of the re-mixing Aaron has done has probably been in the IRs and I've disabled those. But I wanted to post a version of both 1.5 and 1.6 eitherway.


----------



## vicontrolu

Big difference between 1.5 and 1.6. Congrats Aaron!


----------



## floego

Hi there, 
About the IB's new version, someone knows what 'PB' stands for?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

This is a *BIG* update. The low end is much, much improved and so is the legato engine. I've only tried the Horns and little of the Trombones yet, and in those, the update has been a substantial upgrade in tonal quality and legato.

Buzzy, sawy, beey sound of the horns in 1.5 when playing loud dynamics has been smoothed out in the 1.6 update and they sound thicker, warmer, and more cohesive. As well as the legato in the horns has been improved as heard in the second example. It's not the best. I'm still trying to find the new sweet spots with the new legato and dynamics.

This is Horns a4 with the exact same midi, so no individual midi for each horn. Quick little improve with shitty timing.

1: Main Theme 1.5
2: Main Theme 1.6
3: Far Horizons 1.5
4: Far Horizons 1.6

Edit: Uploaded the wrong files. Fixed.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

floego said:


> Hi there,
> About the IB's new version, someone knows what 'PB' stands for?


Pitch bend. It sets the range for the pitch bend.


----------



## DANIELE

floego said:


> Hi there,
> About the IB's new version, someone knows what 'PB' stands for?


Look at the update walkthrough, he explain the meaning of that part.


----------



## Tag

Wow ... first I though _"Eh ... the horns totally sound different"_ ... then I re-watched the walkthrough video (not on my handy this time) noticing that the horns now have an instrument mic and a close mic. With the close mic they sound more like the 1.5 horns ... but better.

Everything sounds better. Just thank you so much, Aaron! I really like the update. Also CPU usage seems the same, which I like as well. (=


----------



## Jamus

Horn rips are definitely a thing now 👍


----------



## PerryD

Definitely more brassy. A quick fff test. I only wish the fonts were larger in Kontakt. My vision is very poor and setting up multis for breath controller is torture, even with windows magnifier. Not your fault Aaron. I am glad it is a one window GUI!


----------



## ansthenia

Amazing update, thank you Aaron!


----------



## PerryD

I don't typically use it this way but poly mode (sustain pedal) even feels a little more natural. I prefer playing individual parts but this is great for sketching. Using a BC with humanize on.


----------



## shawnsingh

DANIELE said:


> Obviously I'm at work now and I can't try the update, now I have to suffer for the entire day until I will be back to my home studio.



Bah, entire day? Wife's maternity leave just ended and now I'm on baby+toddler duty for the next 3 months with no time for music endeavors. On one hand, a lot of things that would have been GAS purchases, I decided to pass. But this one, I'm really feeling the sting of not being able to try it for several more months. And right on cue... baby waking up now. Enjoy your 1.6 I will be living vicariously through all of you right now =)


----------



## Nimrod7

shawnsingh said:


> I'm on baby+toddler duty for the next 3 months with no time for music endeavors.


You can always play a nice horn solo to get the baby to sleep.
ff trumpet to wake it up to feed.


----------



## Trash Panda

shawnsingh said:


> Bah, entire day? Wife's maternity leave just ended and now I'm on baby+toddler duty for the next 3 months with no time for music endeavors. On one hand, a lot of things that would have been GAS purchases, I decided to pass. But this one, I'm really feeling the sting of not being able to try it for several more months. And right on cue... baby waking up now. Enjoy your 1.6 I will be living vicariously through all of you right now =)


Be strong, brother! I was there at the 6 month mark when the wifey went back to work. We eventually had to accept the crushing monthly cost of daycare as it was impossible for me to handle being full time dad and full time worker bee, even when WFH.


----------



## Dex

I guess my wallet is ready. This is as cheap as the bundle has ever been, right?


----------



## Trash Panda

Dex said:


> I guess my wallet is ready. This is as cheap as the bundle has ever been, right?


Same price as what I spent last Black Friday.


----------



## ansthenia

So like, where's 1.7 Aaron? Eh? EH!?


----------



## DANIELE

shawnsingh said:


> Bah, entire day? Wife's maternity leave just ended and now I'm on baby+toddler duty for the next 3 months with no time for music endeavors. On one hand, a lot of things that would have been GAS purchases, I decided to pass. But this one, I'm really feeling the sting of not being able to try it for several more months. And right on cue... baby waking up now. Enjoy your 1.6 I will be living vicariously through all of you right now =)


+many months for you. 

Look at the positive side of the thing, once you will be at the end of your journey IS will be out for sure.



ansthenia said:


> So like, where's 1.7 Aaron? Eh? EH!?


1.7 will bring -20 Hz frequencies to low brass so they will be as low as below 0 Hz.


----------



## EvilDragon

Nimrod7 said:


> Aaron Venture stuff are too good not to be on Kontakt Player... :(


QFT!


----------



## Dex

What's the CPU usage like for 6 infinite french horns, as compared to the EW Holywood brass gold 6FH sus patch (with reverb turned off)? It would be helpful to have comparisons both while idle and while playing a passage.


----------



## Captain Oveur

Nimrod7 said:


> Aaron Venture stuff are too good not to be on Kontakt Player... :(


This has been addressed before


aaronventure said:


> I'll consider offering a player version once I get all the instruments out. I'm kind of trailblazing here, at least in some aspects and so far development of new products always impacted the released ones, and I would go back and do some heavy updating. I mean, Infinite Brass 1.0 and 1.5 are basically two different libraries in terms of sound and actual output quality. Woodwinds 2.0 is, bar a couple of noise samples and the GUI assets, an entirely new library. And it was because of development of 2.0 that I made the changes now present in Brass 1.5.
> 
> I'm sure there'll be a lightbulb moment or 5 while I'm developing Infinite Strings. So with that in mind, I'd much prefer focusing on development right now and my freedom to change things on a moment's notice and push it to users whenever, then make that move when I feel the whole thing is ironed out and ready for it.


----------



## decredis

DANIELE said:


> 1.7 will bring -20 Hz frequencies to low brass so they will be as low as below 0 Hz.


Infinite Wavelength


----------



## aaronventure

Dex said:


> What's the CPU usage like for 6 infinite french horns, as compared to the EW Holywood brass gold 6FH sus patch (with reverb turned off)? It would be helpful to have comparisons both while idle and while playing a passage.


More compared to a conventional single a6 patch. Unless the Hollywood Brass instrument does some crazy stuff under the hood (I doubt it), Infinite will hit more. In terms of voice count, you get 5 voices per instrument, so 30 for 6 horns. In terms of DSP (which I imagine Hollywood does very little of), Infinite will be doing 18 convolution operations. 6 if you enable Mixed Mic. 

The voice count shouldn't be an issue with modern CPUs but compared to sample playback with maybe some legato scripting, you'll feel the DSP hit, especially on lower buffer sizes. 

While idle, Infinite doesn't do anything, other than checking whether you played a note


----------



## Conor

Man, I would have saved so much money (on _other_ libs) if I'd paid full price for Infinite Brass + Woodwinds a few months ago.


----------



## El Buhdai

I am stunned at the improvements this time around. Here are my thoughts.

Disclaimer: These are just my thoughts after placing 1.6 onto _existing MIDI created with 1.5._ Any adjustments made were very minor. Seeing as it's not original MIDI created for the update specifically, my thoughts are subject to change when I've finally "written to the samples", as they say.

- If I had to pick just one word to describe IB 1.6, it would be "precision". The trumpets and french horns can play with extraordinary precision even during phrases with incredibly fast repetitions, and even with humanize enabled. In fact, I'd almost say that this is a step backwards compared to 1.5, but I suspect that it'll just take me some time to adjust. Thanks to the flexibility of these libraries, a simple increase in humanization coupled with slightly less precise MIDI should do the trick.
- The new attacks are awesome, particularly with the horns. I thought 1.5 breathed new life into these instruments, but 1.6 makes them sound more natural than ever in this regard. More dynamic as well. Trumpet attacks also have a more natural growth in intensity as the dynamics grow, with a wider variety of levels in between pp and ff. It's hard to describe what I'm getting at here, but I think if you use 1.6 and compare it to 1.5, you'll hopefully get what I mean.
- It's much easier to layer and combine multiple sections at once without things sounding as synthy as they used to, even in 1.5.
- The instruments sound more rounded than ever.
- I'm not a fan of the seemingly dryer sound. I had just nailed the perfect blend of roominess and detail in my previous templates. I think this is just another case of "you'll get used to it/rework your templates around it", but I'm definitely noticing a difference here.
- The trombones used to be the "Infinite Woodwinds flutes" of Infinite Brass. No more. I'm happy to say that, while they were only a half-step above usable in 1.5 (from a tone perspective anyway), they are now respectable. Still a bit more work to be done I think, but definitely no longer the worst of the library by a noticeable margin.
- A general reduction in synthiness from the trumpets when playing sustained.
- The "attack accuracy" knob being turned into a "pitch accuracy" knob that now affects the entirety of a note instead of just the attack is a very welcome change. It really adds to the sound, and I think it'll let me be slightly less aggressive with CC#1 while still enjoying somewhat natural phrasing.
- The legato improvements discussed in the update video are definitely noticeable in the final product. It all sounds excellent... except the fact that the trumpet legato glitches out a fair bit on my end. Hopefully that'll be patched with a hotfix.

There's more I could say, but I've only played with the update for about a half hour. All in all, I continue to be impressed with how @aaronventure continues to make improvements to these libraries every 6 to 8 months, while hardly ever making changes to the overall sound that make things worse. I think we should all just take a moment and recognize how insane that is. We've certainly all "mixed" a track, only to make it sound worse than it did out of the box, so it's remarkable to me that Aaron continues to do nothing but improve the sound year after year with no missteps when he's essentially building these instruments from nothing but awful sounding samples, math, and convolution reverb. Congrats on another wonderful update and I'm so happy to see these libraries continue to grow in quality, acclaim, and popularity since I bought them in fall of 2019.


----------



## Dex

aaronventure said:


> More compared to a conventional single a6 patch. Unless the Hollywood Brass instrument does some crazy stuff under the hood (I doubt it), Infinite will hit more. In terms of voice count, you get 5 voices per instrument, so 30 for 6 horns. In terms of DSP (which I imagine Hollywood does very little of), Infinite will be doing 18 convolution operations. 6 if you enable Mixed Mic.
> 
> The voice count shouldn't be an issue with modern CPUs but compared to sample playback with maybe some legato scripting, you'll feel the DSP hit, especially on lower buffer sizes.
> 
> While idle, Infinite doesn't do anything, other than checking whether you played a note


I appreciate the response. I expect Infinite Brass will take more CPU than the Hollywood Brass patch during playback, although Play has a ton of overhead so who knows.

For what it's worth, on my system (i5 6600) the 6FH Sus Hollywood Brass gold patch uses 0.54% CPU while idling, and during a monophonic phrase playback (nothing faster than 8th notes at 120 BPM) I see up to 13 simultaneous voices and it tops out around 1.03% CPU. (All CPU measurements are according to Reaper.) If someone could chime in with the CPU measurements from HO Brass and Infinite Brass on their system I figure I could scale that to my system to give me an idea of exactly what I'd be getting into here.


----------



## Markrs

EvilDragon said:


> QFT!


Had to Google "QFT" as I am clearly out of the loop when it comes to online acronyms! For those like me who don't what it means, it stands for "Quoted For Truth" 😁


----------



## Trash Panda

I couldn't help but slap this together tonight to test out IB 1.6 in my template. 

No strings are present and it's only a rough first pass, but I'm excited for what 1.6 brings to the table.

Infinite Brass:
Trumpets a3
Horns a4
Tenor Bones a2
Bass Trombone
Tuba

Infinite Woodwinds:
Flutes a2
Oboes a2
Clarinets a2
Bassoons a2


----------



## Jonathan Moray

In my hazed euphoria over the new update, I managed to upload the wrong files in the previous post.

I've updated the previous post, and I will also post the proper files here. They were supposed to show the FFF layers in 1.5 and 1.6 to better auralize what I meant by a warmer, less metallic, and more cohesive sound.

1: Main Theme 1.5
2: Main Theme 1.6


----------



## Consona

Trash Panda said:


> I couldn't help but slap this together tonight to test out IB 1.6 in my template.
> 
> No strings are present and it's only a rough first pass, but I'm excited for what 1.6 brings to the table.
> 
> Infinite Brass:
> Trumpets a3
> Horns a4
> Tenor Bones a2
> Bass Trombone
> Tuba
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds:
> Flutes a2
> Oboes a2
> Clarinets a2
> Bassoons a2


Just for the sake of comparison:


He didn't use horns though.


----------



## DANIELE

I played a bit with the update yesterday and I must say that, even if I already like the 1.5, 1.6 bring a bit of fresh air, especially in horns and trombones, I loved to play with trombones a lot, I love how they sound now and I also love ho the low brass sound in general. If you try to double horns, trombones, b trombones, cb trombones and cimbassi (add a tuba and cb tuba if you want and...why not...an euphonium too) and you play some low note then your chest will almost explode.

I felt like this:






And then:


----------



## Nimrod7

Sorry if it has been asked before,

Any way to turn off the reverb?


----------



## doctoremmet

Nimrod7 said:


> Sorry if it has been asked before,
> 
> Any way to turn off the reverb?


Yes.


----------



## mussnig

Nimrod7 said:


> Sorry if it has been asked before,
> 
> Any way to turn off the reverb?


Yes - easiest way is to choose one of the premade Mic Mixes and then turn off the single convolution reverb that you can access when you click on the wrench on the top left (the way you usually edit Kontakt instruments).

Be advised though, that while this sometimes works quite well for single instruments (that is, with a good external reverb), I found to get very mixed results when trying to work with sections (mostly phasing and other issues). The IRs that are provided with IB seem to be carefully taylored to make things work.


----------



## Nimrod7

doctoremmet said:


> Yes.


In the UI or the backend of Kontakt? 
Can't find something in the manual and the backend have too many stuff, but I will keep looking


----------



## doctoremmet

What @mussnig said


----------



## Nimrod7

mussnig said:


> Be advised though, that while this sometimes works quite well for single instruments (that is, with a good external reverb), I found to get very mixed results when trying to work with sections (mostly phasing and other issues). The IRs that are provided with IB seem to be carefully taylored to make things work.


Thanks @mussnig

That was the intention to use the reverb I have in the template (Cinematic Rooms) and save some CPU also.
It's working well with VSL Syncronized and OPUS which have dry samples, but I will take your advice and do some testing in this case to see if it's working or stick with the provided IR's.


----------



## Marcube

FireGS said:


> also..


My email offers a 20% (not 25%) sale on Infinite Brass (not IW, but does affect the bundle).

Is $599 for the bundle what you're all seeing?


----------



## Nimrod7

Marcube said:


> Is $599 for the bundle what you're all seeing?


Yep


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Nimrod7 said:


> Thanks @mussnig
> 
> That was the intention to use the reverb I have in the template (Cinematic Rooms) and save some CPU also.
> It's working well with VSL Syncronized and OPUS which have dry samples, but I will take your advice and do some testing in this case to see if it's working or stick with the provided IR's.


I personally think you will get mediocre results at best using Cinematic Rooms. It's a great reverb, amazing even, but I don't think it would be up to the task of replacing the built in IRs, especially when I comes to ensembles, as stated by mussnig.

It sounds like you are planing on sending all the instruments to the same reverb, this will most likely not sound very good at all. You would have to load a different instance of Cinematic Rooms for each instrument to get a somewhat decent sound, and at that point it might be heavier than using the built in IRs.

Keep in mind that although EW and VSL are considered "dry" they are far from it. They still have a lot of early reflections.

The best way to do it would be to find one of the mix mics you like and go with that. And if you want it to sound like EW or VSL, go with the studio room, find a good mix with similar early reflections and send that to the common Cinematic Roos reverb.

Infinite is not that extemly cpu intensive when compared to many other alternatives, but cpu utilisation a bit high in heavier arrangements.

Whatever you do, please keep us posted so we can compare different techniques. These are just my thoughts about it, and I hope I'm wrong about some of it. I'm writing this on my phone as I'm away from my studio so can't test it myself right now.


----------



## Nimrod7

Jonathan Moray said:


> It sounds like you are planing on sending all the instruments to the same reverb,


Hey Jonathan, thanks for the writeup, it reinforces the original opinion to keep the IRs
The template is actually 4 reverbs, different sizes, mostly separated for for Shorts, Longs, Solos etc.
In case something doesn't work with any of those it gets a new reverb on the bus, but usually it's late anyhow in the mixing process, where you figure out how everything fits together (or not).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Nimrod7 said:


> Hey Jonathan, thanks for the writeup, it reinforces the original opinion to keep the IRs
> The template is actually 4 reverbs, different sizes, mostly separated for for Shorts, Longs, Solos etc.
> In case something doesn't work with any of those it gets a new reverb on the bus, but usually it's late anyhow in the mixing process, where you figure out how everything fits together (or not).


I complete agree. I try to have a template with an approximation of the sound I want and then it will get a final mix-down in another project to dial in and nail the sound in detail. It's necessary since not only do I have a pretty old workstation at this point, but I also tend to use a few high latency plugins. 

I've seen the set up your talking about quite a bit: separating reverb by shot & long, and I can see the reasoning behind it. Personally, I try and keep my mixing as clean and as realistic as possible, especially now after acquiring Infinite. So I don't split my reverbs by long or short notes, which might be stupid since it just gives me more work later.

How would you handle long and short notes with Infinite in the current setup? Since in traditional libraries they are already separated by long & short it's easy to route, but Infinite doesn't have that. So do you have any tips on how you would route it in a situation like this?


----------



## Ziffles

I just did music for a promo of an upcoming game, in the style of a hyped-up breaking news bumper. The brass is all Infinite Brass (1.5):


----------



## Nimrod7

Jonathan Moray said:


> How would you handle long and short notes with Infinite in the current setup?


I didn't figured that out yet. Infinite is quite a unique case.
I am planning to test the template rooms first, then different rooms in different reverbs to see if something can work for infinite Brass / Woodwinds.
Kind of defeats the purpose of saving CPU, but the reasoning is if there is something that is reasonably ok with Brass /Woods could might be possibly also used for the upcoming Strings.

I have a few reverbs I want to try out apart from Cinematic Rooms, Seventh Heaven, and Altiverb.

Again that's just to compose and have something to hear that sounds good but not necessarily how the final will be.

I think when there is a piece in place that I need to mix, it's a huge torture to open each Kontakt or VSL instance and kill the reverbs in order to mix it, but with this approach it's very easy to just disable the busses that they are forwarded, and try something else.


----------



## doctoremmet

Ziffles said:


> I just did music for a promo of an upcoming game, in the style of a hyped-up breaking news bumper. The brass is all Infinite Brass (1.5):



Nice! Game looks cool too (shmup lover here).


----------



## axb312

looking forward to more user demos...whatever I've heard so far sounds great...


----------



## Nimrod7

Ziffles said:


> I just did music for a promo of an upcoming game, in the style of a hyped-up breaking news bumper. The brass is all Infinite Brass (1.5):


I can't unsee this fish. 
Well done @Ziffles, sounds great!


----------



## PerryD

PerryD said:


> Definitely more brassy. A quick fff test. I only wish the fonts were larger in Kontakt. My vision is very poor and setting up multis for breath controller is torture, even with windows magnifier. Not your fault Aaron. I am glad it is a one window GUI!


I turned that test into a short cue. IB with IWW.


----------



## aaronventure

El Buhdai said:


> These are just my thoughts after placing 1.6 onto _existing MIDI created with 1.5._


Hey, that's a nice write-up and I'm super happy to see my intentions come across so well. Yes, the legato tweaks now allow more musicality (or can sound musical more easily, should I say), but also more precision with higher velocities. 

What you're experiencing in humanize is due to increased clarity. You're now clearly hearing what's going on. Just crank it up to 70, I know I do. Hell, I might have to increase the limit past 70 next time around :D You've noticed a single instrument mic in a horn ensemble can profoundly change how the whole thing comes across. 

Yep, the trombones were the last on the list for a refresh. They can now sit in the mix much more easily. The horns' attack changes are very important overall, even more than the inst mics, I'd say. It's very obvious when you play a single horn back to back with 1.5. No need to be afraid of higher velocities now. 



El Buhdai said:


> There's more I could say, but I've only played with the update for about a half hour. All in all, I continue to be impressed with how @aaronventure continues to make improvements to these libraries every 6 to 8 months, while hardly ever making changes to the overall sound that make things worse.


Yeah, that's the hard part. Logging every change, versioning and constantly checking myself is how I remain sane. These serve not as precautions, but as actual methods of development because I can't tell you how many times I've made a change, went away for a couple of days only to come back and be puzzled as to what I did and why the fuck did I even do it in the first place. So with logging and versioning it's easy to go back, not waste time and nerves. It's not all highways; lots of tall grass, mud and quicksand.

Again, cheers for the words.

I'd only ask if you could be bothered to post that write-up in a separate thread (maybe in the reviews section), otherwise it'll get lost in this megathread like so many other great things people here have posted.



Dex said:


> If someone could chime in with the CPU measurements from HO Brass and Infinite Brass on their system


It really depends on your buffer size. I initially made the whole thing on an old i5 from 2014, but the template was running at 1024 buffer back then, and it could get slightly choppy in tuttis. Now, I have a Ryzen 3900X, and the full template runs at buffer 256.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> the full template runs at buffer 256


I use the same buffer size.


----------



## Terry93D

I don't have a cool 1.6 thing to share, but I just realized that I never shared this piece - brass and winds both Infinite, strings LASS, percussion a mix of VSCO2 and Best Service COC. Reverb on the percussion is PhoenixVerb; reverb on the rest of the orchestra is Convology XT with one of the free Samplicity M7 IRs, an instance each on strings, brass, and winds (tweaked to suit each to my liking).


----------



## Consona

Can IB do nice attacks like these?


----------



## FireGS

Consona said:


> Can IB do nice attacks like these?



Probably better than most libraries.


----------



## Wendolinny

Consona said:


> Can IB do nice attacks like these?



Quick test (Mic mix 2, Bersa, out of the box):
View attachment IB 1.6 Anakin Fast Tonguing Example.mp3


----------



## axb312

@aaronventure Any chance you could release a demo patch or something for users to try before they buy?


----------



## Trash Panda

Full Universal Logo Theme. Took longer to balance levels and transcribe it than it did to get these brass beauties to shine.

Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, Freyja/Wotan, CinePerc and CSS/CSSS.


----------



## porrasm

Does anyone have experience mixing Cinematic Studio String with Infite Woods/Brass? I want a more intimate piece and my SF Symphonic String don't really fit for what I have in mind.


----------



## Consona

Wendolinny said:


> Quick test (Mic mix 2, Bersa, out of the box):
> View attachment IB 1.6 Anakin Fast Tonguing Example.mp3


Wow! Thank you! No matter what I do with CineBrass I can't get anywhere near this!

Would love to hear Samplemodeling version of this. Anyone? 



Trash Panda said:


> Full Universal Logo Theme. Took longer to balance levels and transcribe it than it did to get these brass beauties to shine.
> 
> Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, Freyja/Wotan, CinePerc and CSS/CSSS.






I mean... Great job Aaron and Panda!


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> Full Universal Logo Theme. Took longer to balance levels and transcribe it than it did to get these brass beauties to shine.
> 
> Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, Freyja/Wotan, CinePerc and CSS/CSSS.



Wow!!! Very nice. Much processing here? I liked how 'big' the strings sounded here. My CSS always sounds a bit smaller.


----------



## Consona

I hope we'll get 1.6 version of this demo. 1.5 sounded great already. Would be really interesting to hear the difference.


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> Wow!!! Very nice. Much processing here? I liked how 'big' the strings sounded here. My CSS always sounds a bit smaller.


Infinite Brass and Winds are running through the Bersa Hall with mix mic 5. Only effects on them are Hornet Tape and a Cinematic Rooms instance.

Strings are CSS and CSSS layered with the Project Colossal EQs along with Hornet Tape, Hornet ThirtyOne in static mode and Cinematic Rooms on the string bus.

Master Bus effects are Hornet Tape, Smooth Operator, Hornet ThirtyOne in continuous mode, and Ozone.

The Project Colossal EQs are doing the heavy lifting for the strings. @ricoderks really knocked it out of the park with his settings.


----------



## novaburst

Not sure how i missed this library all this time but all i can say its an experience of excellence from the Developer 

Why is this library so hidden


----------



## Consona

novaburst said:


> Why is this library so hidden


Once people start to appreciate Williams/Goldsmith/Horner style orchestral writing over ePiC staccati and sustains, Infinite Brass will be the most sought-after brass library on the market.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

novaburst said:


> Not sure how i missed this library all this time but all i can say its an experience of excellence from the Developer
> 
> Why is this library so hidden


Not sure, could be that I already know about it, but the last year it has showed up in most threads I read in one form or another.

Also, Aaron is a one man powerhouse and doesn't really do marketing so rely much more on word-of-mouth.

Furthermore, it is not a traditional library and requires a bit of a different workflow, and most people don't like change. Some find having baked-in reverb a must because of realism and dislike the tone of "modeled" instruments.

Seems like a lot of people just glance over it.


----------



## novaburst

Consona said:


> Once people start to appreciate Williams/Goldsmith/Horner style orchestral writing over ePiC staccati and sustains, Infinite Brass will be the most sought-after brass library on the market.


just cant believe the sound and playability


Jonathan Moray said:


> Seems like a lot of people just glance over it.


i think this was my attitude too yes i have herd of it but never paid any attention, 

Any wayz i think there is a time and place for every thing and now could not be a more perfect time 

big shout to the developer


----------



## novaburst

i am over the moon on this library but so is this guy


----------



## Denkii

@novaburst welcome to the cult.


----------



## novaburst

Denkii said:


> @novaburst welcome to the cult.


----------



## El Buhdai

Consona said:


> Once people start to appreciate Williams/Goldsmith/Horner style orchestral writing over ePiC staccati and sustains, Infinite Brass will be the most sought-after brass library on the market.



It's definitely the Williams wannabe in me that draws me to these libraries. They're so worthy of his technical writing style.


----------



## novaburst

Jonathan Moray said:


> it is not a traditional library and requires a bit of a different workflow, and most people don't like change.


haha i was looking for staccatos for quite a while and thought it got missed in the download 
then realized its velocity triggered, that works for me and i think easy to get used to, 

instruments load lightning fast and ram footprint is a bliss, sound tone is out of this world


----------



## Jonathan Moray

novaburst said:


> haha i was looking for staccatos for quite a while and thought it got missed in the download
> then realized its velocity triggered, that works for me and i think easy to get used to,
> 
> instruments load lightning fast and ram footprint is a bliss, sound tone is out of this world


For sure. It is crazy what these little instruments can accomplish with such a grace and ease once you know them and with such a small footprint. I can't think of much in the common repertoire that they can't do, only more uncommon playing techniques.

To be honest, super glad people start opening their eyes to these, especially for Aaron and the continuation of their development, but I'm also kind of bummed that my secret weapons are getting out there.


----------



## novaburst

Jonathan Moray said:


> but I'm also kind of bummed that my secret weapons are getting out there.


was going to be mine too but could not keep quite about this there is a lot of love gone into this library, i just hope the developer does not do a string library any time soon or at least for the rest of this year,


----------



## Trash Panda

novaburst said:


> i just hope the developer does not do a string library any time soon or at least for the rest of this year,


----------



## Jonathan Moray

novaburst said:


> was going to be mine too but could not keep quite about this there is a lot of love gone into this library, i just hope the developer does not do a string library any time soon or at least for the rest of this year,


Hrhm... 



Trash Panda said:


>



Couldent say it better myself.

I've been waiting for Infinite Strings since when the release said 2019.


----------



## novaburst

haha


----------



## clonewar

Trash Panda said:


> Infinite Brass and Winds are running through the Bersa Hall with mix mic 5. Only effects on them are Hornet Tape and a Cinematic Rooms instance.
> 
> Strings are CSS and CSSS layered with the Project Colossal EQs along with Hornet Tape, Hornet ThirtyOne in static mode and Cinematic Rooms on the string bus.
> 
> Master Bus effects are Hornet Tape, Smooth Operator, Hornet ThirtyOne in continuous mode, and Ozone.
> 
> The Project Colossal EQs are doing the heavy lifting for the strings. @ricoderks really knocked it out of the park with his settings.


Curious if you’re using any Project Colossal brass settings with the IB instruments?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Looking forward to updates to Infinite Woodwinds next hopefully. The instruments could certainly use some massaging in terms of tone.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I think the new legato engine will be even more of a drastic and positive change in the woodwinds. And can't wait to hear what Aaron can coax out of the woodwinds in terms of tone. It seems like an impossible task to get the perfect tone I personally want out of woodwinds. But without going live, that's a tall ask of any library. Although if anyone can do it, it is Aaron.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again.

I think they already sound quite good, but there's a certain something I find missing, a hollowness to the tone is the best way I can describe it. And I find that the individual players sound too much alike. Would be nice with some more tonal variation between the players.

But like most here, I hope we get to see Infinite Strings before another huge update.


----------



## Trash Panda

clonewar said:


> Curious if you’re using any Project Colossal brass settings with the IB instruments?


Just the Cinematic Rooms insert on the brass bus and Hornet Tape. I haven’t tried the PC brass EQs, but I don’t think they’d work since IB and CSB sound very different out of the box.


----------



## Terry93D

Jonathan Moray said:


> I hope we get to see Infinite Strings before another huge update.


Seconded, seconded, seconded!

I want those divisi strings, that ability to control on a player-by-player level the number of instruments in my strings sections. And I want that flexibility of shorts - I would argue that a wide range of shorts being available is one of the biggest strong points of the Infinite libraries.


----------



## clonewar

Trash Panda said:


> Just the Cinematic Rooms insert on the brass bus and Hornet Tape. I haven’t tried the PC brass EQs, but I don’t think they’d work since IB and CSB sound very different out of the box.


Thanks. I figured the same EQs wouldn't necessarily work out of the box, just wondering about adding and adapting other libraries to the PC template, including IB.


----------



## Flyo

This is the best Brass library yet? What else? Cinesamples - OT JXL - or the new VSL Brass?


----------



## novaburst

Flyo said:


> This is the best Brass library yet? What else


i think a close 2nd is sample modelling, what makes IB unique is your not scrambling for staccato portamento or even runs, you just play it in place or as your mind tells you after using for a few hours this playability becomes very convenient,

also using a library like this you will not need round robins i think this is a hint of the way forward for library's to day and the future its obvious what ever this developer is doing is working very well weather modelling call it what ever this one comes with a fat tone and sound and liveliness.

there is a lot of movement so closing the library then open it up again and try to play a melody you did before it will not be the same, it could be better or worse, so its very close to playing live all the time,

some library's make you feel your stock on rails


----------



## Trash Panda

Trash Panda said:


> Full Universal Logo Theme. Took longer to balance levels and transcribe it than it did to get these brass beauties to shine.
> 
> Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, Freyja/Wotan, CinePerc and CSS/CSSS.



Updated after having a second set of ears help balance levels a bit further and some time A/Bing against the reference track. Not perfect, but I think 95% close enough. 

Below is my mockup, the reference video and attached is the MIDI for anyone who wants to play around with it.


----------



## ricoderks

Trash Panda said:


> Infinite Brass and Winds are running through the Bersa Hall with mix mic 5. Only effects on them are Hornet Tape and a Cinematic Rooms instance.
> 
> Strings are CSS and CSSS layered with the Project Colossal EQs along with Hornet Tape, Hornet ThirtyOne in static mode and Cinematic Rooms on the string bus.
> 
> Master Bus effects are Hornet Tape, Smooth Operator, Hornet ThirtyOne in continuous mode, and Ozone.
> 
> The Project Colossal EQs are doing the heavy lifting for the strings. @ricoderks really knocked it out of the park with his settings.


Many many thanks man!


Trash Panda said:


> Just the Cinematic Rooms insert on the brass bus and Hornet Tape. I haven’t tried the PC brass EQs, but I don’t think they’d work since IB and CSB sound very different out of the box.


Agree, that would not make sense. You can route them directly from a new kontakt instance to the stems output! On the kontakt strip you could eventually do some eq if needed. 
Maybe IB is gonna be an expansion too. Really like the 1.6 update and snippets i'm hearing here.


----------



## Consona

Some dryer demos anyone? 



Flyo said:


> This is the best Brass library yet? What else? Cinesamples - OT JXL - or the new VSL Brass?


If I was starting over, I'd buy IB and SampleModeling, and that's that.

Now I have a lot of stuff I can't resell and neither IB, nor SM, noreither money for both. F**********ck.  (But I'm gonna get both eventually for sure anyway. )



Trash Panda said:


> Updated after having a second set of ears help balance levels a bit further and some time A/Bing against the reference track. Not perfect, but I think 95% close enough.
> 
> Below is my mockup, the reference video and attached is the MIDI for anyone who wants to play around with it.



Thx for the midi!


----------



## El Buhdai

It's time for another one of my demos. I've shared snippets of this piece here before, but I've finally made the B section listenable enough to share the whole piece. Still some roughness here and there, but I think it shows off the libraries well from a MIDI programming and mockup perspective for people like me who can't play keyboard. All brass are Infinite Brass 1.6, all woodwinds are Infinite Woodwinds 2.0. Strings are mostly Hollywood Strings, some OPUS, most are legacy. Sometimes HS is doubled with CSS for legato melodies. All percussion are Hollywood Percussion & Hollywood Harp. There's a hint of a children's choir, which is Genesis.

Here's the list of Infinite instruments:

Infinite Brass 1.6:
4 Trumpets
6 French Horns
2 Euphoniums
4 Trombones
1 Tuba

Infinite Woodwinds 2.0:
1 Piccolo
3 Flutes
3 Clarinets
1 Bass Clarinet
1 Contrabass Clarinet
2 Oboes
1 English Horn
2 Bassoons

I continue to be impressed with how Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds can keep up with whatever is in my head, particularly stuff like the Piccolo x Flute runs at 1:39.

Enjoy!


----------



## Maarten

El Buhdai said:


> It's time for another one of my demos.<snip>
> 
> Enjoy!


I certainly did. Fantastic!


----------



## DivingInSpace

El Buhdai said:


> Enjoy!


Thanks, i just lost all my self esteem. This sounds amazing.


----------



## PerryD

Once you try a _playable_ and realistic instrument like those created by Aaron Venture or Samplemodeling, it feels very tedious to use a library with alternate keyswitches. A bit like doing a puzzle picture compared to creating a painting. I am kind of a brass junkie, being a real trumpet player and owning a ridiculous amount of brass libraries. I even have JXL...amazing sound but nowhere near the playability of IB or SM brass.


----------



## Consona

PerryD said:


> Once you try a _playable_ and realistic instrument like those created by Aaron Venture or Samplemodeling, it feels very tedious to use a library with alternate keyswitches. A bit like doing a puzzle picture compared to creating a painting. I am kind of a brass junkie, being a real trumpet player and owning a ridiculous amount of brass libraries. I even have JXL...amazing sound but nowhere near the playability of IB or SM brass.


You own both IB and SM? Any conclusions?


----------



## PerryD

Consona said:


> You own both IB and SM? Any conclusions?


I _love_ Samplemodeling for solo instruments. I wish they had as many different instruments as IB. I think the libraries compliment each other very well. I use a breath controller for both.


----------



## Consona

PerryD said:


> I _love_ Samplemodeling for solo instruments. I wish they had as many different instruments as IB. I think the libraries compliment each other very well. I use a breath controller for both.


How do you feel about SM ensemble/orchestral use?
I read people saying french horns don't sound as good as the other instruments, can the timbral shaping make them sound less saxophony and more brassy?


----------



## PerryD

Consona said:


> How do you feel about SM ensemble/orchestral use?
> I read people saying french horns don't sound as good as the other instruments, can the timbral shaping make them sound less saxophony and more brassy?


I did a video about breath controllers and Samplemodeling about 7 (!) years ago. I never thought the French horns sounded remotely saxophone like. ?


----------



## Consona

PerryD said:


> I did a video about breath controllers and Samplemodeling about 7 (!) years ago. I never thought the French horns sounded remotely saxophone like. ?



Wow, that horn there sounds so good! What does the "Perry Solo Horn" mean?





Some people there said:
- "I'm a trumpet player by profession. The trumpets and trombones sound so good here. Wow! I'm a little less impressed with the fr.horn sound as there isn't much brasslike quality to the sound and the mellowness sounds a bit sinusoidal, but my goodness everything else is topnotch! Great muted sounds too! Bravo!"
- "I agree. Further, the French horn sounds like a bit like an alto/tenor saxophone. The other instruments sound right on point."
hence me wondering


----------



## Akora

El Buhdai said:


> It's time for another one of my demos. Enjoy!


Me all the way through:







Love your demos, @El Buhdai and thanks for all the tips you have shared throughout this thread on how you setup your Infinite instruments, I'm trying to incorporate some of those tricks myself.


----------



## PerryD

Consona said:


> Wow, that horn there sounds so good! What does the "Perry Solo Horn" mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some people there said:
> - "I'm a trumpet player by profession. The trumpets and trombones sound so good here. Wow! I'm a little less impressed with the fr.horn sound as there isn't much brasslike quality to the sound and the mellowness sounds a bit sinusoidal, but my goodness everything else is topnotch! Great muted sounds too! Bravo!"
> - "I agree. Further, the French horn sounds like a bit like an alto/tenor saxophone. The other instruments sound right on point."
> hence me wondering



I just saved a preset that used a breath controller CC2 instead of CC11 and renamed it Perry Solo horn. No tweaks aside from changing CC11 to CC2.


----------



## DANIELE

El Buhdai said:


> It's time for another one of my demos. I've shared snippets of this piece here before, but I've finally made the B section listenable enough to share the whole piece. Still some roughness here and there, but I think it shows off the libraries well from a MIDI programming and mockup perspective for people like me who can't play keyboard. All brass are Infinite Brass 1.6, all woodwinds are Infinite Woodwinds 2.0. Strings are mostly Hollywood Strings, some OPUS, most are legacy. Sometimes HS is doubled with CSS for legato melodies. All percussion are Hollywood Percussion & Hollywood Harp. There's a hint of a children's choir, which is Genesis.
> 
> Here's the list of Infinite instruments:
> 
> Infinite Brass 1.6:
> 4 Trumpets
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 4 Trombones
> 1 Tuba
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds 2.0:
> 1 Piccolo
> 3 Flutes
> 3 Clarinets
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 1 Contrabass Clarinet
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 2 Bassoons
> 
> I continue to be impressed with how Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds can keep up with whatever is in my head, particularly stuff like the Piccolo x Flute runs at 1:39.
> 
> Enjoy!


Soooo good!!

It remembers me a lot of How To Train Your Dragon!


----------



## El Buhdai

DANIELE said:


> Soooo good!!
> 
> It remembers me a lot of How To Train Your Dragon!


Thanks! That's an interesting one. I've heard from more than one person that it reminds then of Treasure Planet.


----------



## Mikro93

El Buhdai said:


> Thanks! That's an interesting one. I've heard from more than one person that it reminds then of Treasure Planet.


Yep, I would agree, Treasure Planet all the way :D

And this:


----------



## Tralen

Being unable to work my music for a while now, I'm very thankful for the people posting demos here, in particular @Jonathan Moray, @Trash Panda, @PerryD and @El Buhdai.

This thread is not only a testament to the quality of the instruments, but also to the quality of its users, beautiful demos!


----------



## Conor

Possible bug: when I have Kontakt instances set to "omni" rather than a specific MIDI channel, all instruments not on Channel 1 have weird release behavior, adding a little stinger on everything. Example below.

(This is with Cubase 11, VEPro 7, Kontakt 6.6, Infinite Brass 1.6)

Easily worked around if I'm not lazy setting up my instances, though.


----------



## duringtheafter

Conor Brace Music said:


> Possible bug: when I have Kontakt instances set to "omni" rather than a specific MIDI channel, all instruments not on Channel 1 have weird release behavior, adding a little stinger on everything. Example below.
> 
> (This is with Cubase 11, VEPro 7, Kontakt 6.6, Infinite Brass 1.6)
> 
> Easily worked around if I'm not lazy setting up my instances, though.


Send Aaron an email for him to check it out. I flagged a pitch bend issue to him (notes on certain instruments released when pitch bend is engaged would "snap" back to pitch = 0 and release at base pitch), and he made a hotfix.


----------



## aaronventure

Conor Brace Music said:


> Possible bug: when I have Kontakt instances set to "omni" rather than a specific MIDI channel, all instruments not on Channel 1 have weird release behavior, adding a little stinger on everything. Example below.
> 
> (This is with Cubase 11, VEPro 7, Kontakt 6.6, Infinite Brass 1.6)
> 
> Easily worked around if I'm not lazy setting up my instances, though.


Unable to replicate. 

It shouldn't be related to instruments, anyway.

Check your MIDI monitor before Kontakt, could be your keyboard, DAW or whatever is sending additional MIDI notes on note-off or something.


----------



## Simon Schrenk

Just tried to unpack the 1.6 rar but unfortunately it doesn't unpack successful. Anyone else had a similar issue? 
Re-downloaded already to try if it was due to a faulty download, but that doesn't seem to be the case...


----------



## Zanshin

No issues for me. I used 7zip to unpack.


----------



## Saxer

Simon Schrenk said:


> Just tried to unpack the 1.6 rar but unfortunately it doesn't unpack successful. Anyone else had a similar issue?
> Re-downloaded already to try if it was due to a faulty download, but that doesn't seem to be the case...


I had that a few years ago on Mac. Can't remember exactly but it was the Unrar or something I had to update. I never had issues with unpacking other software but IB is probably zipped with the newest stuff!


----------



## Simon Schrenk

Saxer said:


> I had that a few years ago on Mac. Can't remember exactly but it was the Unrar or something I had to update. I never had issues with unpacking other software but IB is probably zipped with the newest stuff!


That's exactly what it was, there was an updated Keka version. Thanks so much!


----------



## Ethan Toavs

For someone whose review of Infinite Brass is on Aaron Venture's website, I have not been using the library nearly as much as I could be. As such, I decided to use Infinite Brass almost exclusively for brass in my newest album, "Mare Nostrum." This music is an excerpt from the album's final piece, "Onwards." You can hear how it sounds in a larger orchestral context. I am quite pleased with how the agility of Infinite Brass allows me to create some very characterful melodic lines and fanfares - ones that would just not nearly as effective or easy to program with other libraries. I especially enjoy how well Infinite Brass works in creating ensembles - all of these horns playing in unison has quite the broad sound. A testament to some truly wonderful instruments.


----------



## I like music

Ethan Toavs said:


> For someone whose review of Infinite Brass is on Aaron Venture's website, I have not been using the library nearly as much as I could be. As such, I decided to use Infinite Brass almost exclusively for brass in my newest album, "Mare Nostrum." This music is an excerpt from the album's final piece, "Onwards." You can hear how it sounds in a larger orchestral context. I am quite pleased with how the agility of Infinite Brass allows me to create some very characterful melodic lines and fanfares - ones that would just not nearly as effective or easy to program with other libraries. I especially enjoy how well Infinite Brass works in creating ensembles - all of these horns playing in unison has quite the broad sound. A testament to some truly wonderful instruments.


My question is, where can I hear the rest of the album?


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I like music said:


> My question is, where can I hear the rest of the album?


I have not released the album yet. This is actually the first time that I have shown anyone else any of it. I am still releasing another album right now, and am waiting an artwork for this one. I should be releasing "Mare Nostrum" by early September. Regardless, I am glad that you enjoy this music!


----------



## I like music

Ethan Toavs said:


> I have not released the album yet. This is actually the first time that I have shown anyone else any of it. I am still releasing another album right now, and am waiting an artwork for this one. I should be releasing "Mare Nostrum" by early September. Regardless, I am glad that you enjoy this music!


Very much so. Ping us when you do release them as I'd love to hear more. Nice work.


----------



## Loïc D

I like music said:


> Very much so. Ping us when you do release them as I'd love to hear more. Nice work.


+1


----------



## DANIELE

Ethan Toavs said:


> For someone whose review of Infinite Brass is on Aaron Venture's website, I have not been using the library nearly as much as I could be. As such, I decided to use Infinite Brass almost exclusively for brass in my newest album, "Mare Nostrum." This music is an excerpt from the album's final piece, "Onwards." You can hear how it sounds in a larger orchestral context. I am quite pleased with how the agility of Infinite Brass allows me to create some very characterful melodic lines and fanfares - ones that would just not nearly as effective or easy to program with other libraries. I especially enjoy how well Infinite Brass works in creating ensembles - all of these horns playing in unison has quite the broad sound. A testament to some truly wonderful instruments.


Very good piece, it remembers me a bit of Ice Age.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I like music said:


> Very much so. Ping us when you do release them as I'd love to hear more. Nice work.


I will gladly do so. Thank you for your interest! In the meantime, though, you can follow me on my YouTube channel if you want to be notified as soon as they are released. https://www.youtube.com/ethantoavs


----------



## Ethan Toavs

DANIELE said:


> Very good piece, it remembers me a bit of Ice Age.


Thank you!


----------



## Supremo

Hi @aaronventure !

I own both IB and IW and am desperately looking forward for the IS release. That's how much I like your libs for their instant playability and meticulous scripting making these series one of the best and most unique in the current market. 
Having said that, I'm just curious whether you have ever considered adding "ensemble" patches for each instrument section that would ease the CPU footprint when played altogether? Let's say a 3-horns patch, a 3-trombones patch, etc?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Supremo said:


> Hi @aaronventure !
> 
> I own both IB and IW and am desperately looking forward for the IS release. That's how much I like your libs for their instant playability and meticulous scripting making these series one of the best and most unique in the current market.
> Having said that, I'm just curious whether you have ever considered adding "ensemble" patches for each instrument section that would ease the CPU footprint when played altogether? Let's say a 3-horns patch, a 3-trombones patch, etc?


He will be doing "ensemble" patches for strings but said he's not considered it for the other sections yet. From what I understand, they won't be made to lower the CPU usage, at least not much, because under the hood they will still be individual instruments, not rendered ensembles because that would defeat the purpose of the Infinite Series, and each player will need their own reverb as with individual instruments.

Or maybe he's decided to offer a rendered ensemble patch where if you play one note you get 4-5 voices with baked-in reverb (I doubt it) instead of the Y x 4-5 voices where Y is the number of active players.

Having baked in reverb and a rendered ensemble will make it closer to a traditional library; phasing, much fewer micro-imperfections, and so on.

Personally, I don't find Infinite that CPU hungry. Of course, when playing a big section it can get a bit heavy, but not terribly so. I can always use the mixes and scale down the number of instruments until I'm ready to render.


----------



## aaronventure

Supremo said:


> Hi @aaronventure !
> 
> I own both IB and IW and am desperately looking forward for the IS release. That's how much I like your libs for their instant playability and meticulous scripting making these series one of the best and most unique in the current market.
> Having said that, I'm just curious whether you have ever considered adding "ensemble" patches for each instrument section that would ease the CPU footprint when played altogether? Let's say a 3-horns patch, a 3-trombones patch, etc?





Jonathan Moray said:


> He will be doing "ensemble" patches for strings but said he's not considered it for the other sections yet. From what I understand, they won't be made to lower the CPU usage, at least not much, because under the hood they will still be individual instruments, not rendered ensembles because that would defeat the purpose of the Infinite Series, and each player will need their own reverb as with individual instruments.


This is pretty much the answer. The CPU hit lies primarily in the convolution units. 

Perhaps after I have fully developed the ensemble tech which will first be implemented in Strings, I'll see about implementing it in Brass. All depends on how much work would backporting be, as Strings have been conceived with this in mind, Brass was not.

From the start, the biggest problem I saw in developing Strings was "not murdering the user's CPU", because if the design paradigm were to remain the same as for Brass and Woodwinds, you'd be running 180 (or 60 with Mixed Mic) convolution units for a symphonic string section. So the overall process and dev pipeline differs from the one in Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, as that would just not be feasible because I really don't want a 32-core Threadripper to be a requirement for Strings. 

So whether we see ensemble patches with significant CPU usage improvements in Brass and Woodwinds depends on how easy it will be for me to apply the new process to them.


----------



## DANIELE

I actually don't feel the need of ensemble patches for brass and woodwinds (but they will be very welcome if AV will decide to build them). On the contrary, I think it is necessary for the strings.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> Strings have been conceived


Great news! Now we just need to know when they will be born


----------



## gedlig

I like music said:


> Great news! Now we just need to know when they will be born


+9 months?


----------



## I like music

gedlig said:


> +9 months?


Amazing.


----------



## shawnsingh

gedlig said:


> +9 months?


But this is assuming strings are humanized. If strings are not humanized on first launch, we can't assume it'll be 9 months from conception... for example some elephants can have a gestation period of 22 months.

So perhaps the elephant in the room is how strings will be humanized and whether that affects release date.


----------



## Tfis

aaronventure said:


> All depends on how much work would backporting


WORK HARDER!!!


----------



## FireGS

aaronventure said:


> I really don't want a 32-core Threadripper to be a requirement for Strings


I'm fine with this :D :D :D


----------



## TimCox

Just picked up IB, I'm loving this library.

Sorry to hijack, just wanted to share this little test run:


----------



## bradleybboone

Bought IS bundle a week or two ago. Testing it out on Colonial Song by Grainger, a core piece of the wind band repertoire.

2 piccs, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 7 clarinets, 2 bass clarinets, 1 of each sax, 7 trumpets, 4 horns, 3 bones, 1 euph, 2 tubas.
Humanize off, mics on mix #5 in Mozarteum hall, duplicate instruments transposed and detuned +/- 5 cents.


----------



## phil_wc

I just uploaded Debussy prelude mock up featuring this library solo in the second half. (For Brass is only 4 horns)


----------



## zimm83

IS......when ???


----------



## John R Wilson

zimm83 said:


> IS......when ???


Today!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

zimm83 said:


> IS......when ???


I have insider knowledge, so Please do not let this spread past these 4 (virtual) walls. 

You can derive the Release year, by Taking the Current thread Page count (of this very thread), and adding a Zero after the First Digit in that Number. 

Furthermore, if you minus 10 from the current thread page number, it will also give you the exact amount of individual string players. 

Never mind the amazing sound and playability , I think the genius of Aaron in factoring all this in to his schedule of sampling, programming and editing is nothing short of God like. 

Lastly, if you take the First letter, from each and every post Aaron has made in this thread, and combine them to make a sentence - It will give you the solution to global poverty. 

I trust you guys won't let this go any further, otherwise I am out as Aaron's inside source. 
Also it will have shorts and legato. Probably.


----------



## Loïc D

Paul Jelfs said:


> I have insider knowledge, so Please do not let this spread past these 4 (virtual) walls.
> 
> You can derive the Release year, by Taking the Current thread Page count (of this very thread), and adding a Zero after the First Digit in that Number.
> 
> Furthermore, if you minus 10 from the current thread page number, it will also give you the exact amount of individual string players.
> 
> Never mind the amazing sound and playability , I think the genius of Aaron in factoring all this in to his schedule of sampling, programming and editing is nothing short of God like.
> 
> Lastly, if you take the First letter, from each and every post Aaron has made in this thread, and combine them to make a sentence - It will give you the solution to global poverty.
> 
> I trust you guys won't let this go any further, otherwise I am out as Aaron's inside source.
> Also it will have shorts and legato. Probably.


Western or Maya calendar?…


----------



## Tralen

Paul Jelfs said:


> ...it will also give you the exact amount of individual string players.


This is a lie, the exact amount of individual string players is Infinite™!


----------



## Trash Panda

zimm83 said:


> IS......when ???


Sometime between now and the eventual heat death of the universe.


----------



## decredis

Trash Panda said:


> Sometime between now and the eventual heat death of the universe.


Some have speculated that it may even be the cause of the heat death of the universe, as it uses the last remaining free energy to perform one final convolution.


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> Sometime between now and the eventual heat death of the universe.


Hear, hear.


----------



## Jish

decredis said:


> Some have speculated that it may even be the cause of the heat death of the universe, as it uses the last remaining free energy to perform one final convolution.


An alternate theory is that the affects of trying to hone and create the next truly 'whoa' type of string library are likely referenced best by the truly awful fate of the original crew members on the _Event Horizon_. The last recollected words of AV will involve staring at the old _Grav Drive_ for a bit too long...

"_Where we're gong, we won't need samples_...."


----------



## doctoremmet

Jish said:


> An alternate theory is that the affects of trying to hone and create the next truly 'whoa' type of string library are likely referenced best by the truly awful fate of the original crew members on the _Event Horizon_. The last recollected words of AV will involve staring at the old _Grav Drive_ for a bit too long...
> 
> "_Where we're gong, we won't need samples_...."


----------



## Tralen

doctoremmet said:


>


When will be the release of Space Strings, with perfectly silent samples?


----------



## DANIELE

Tralen said:


> When will be the release of Space Strings, with perfectly silent samples?


You can download them here:


----------



## doctoremmet

Space jokes?


----------



## lljfnord

I'm trying to budget for the release of Infinite Strings. I've got the Infinite Wind Ensemble bundle. How much will it cost to crossgrade to the "Infinite Orchestra" bundle (brass + woodwinds + strings)? I think I've seen it somewhere, but I can't find it. Does anyone know? @aaronventure , do you have a price already mapped out for us?


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

lljfnord said:


> I'm trying to budget for the release of Infinite Strings. I've got the Infinite Wind Ensemble bundle. How much will it cost to crossgrade to the "Infinite Orchestra" bundle (brass + woodwinds + strings)? I think I've seen it somewhere, but I can't find it. Does anyone know? @aaronventure , do you have a price already mapped out for us?


I vaguely remember Aaron saying earlier in this thread if you have any of his previous products, you can get the strings for $299


----------



## PerryD

So I downloaded the VSL free Big bang Orchestra last night and did a very quick play. Tutti patches aren't the best thing to write with. I was curious how IB would blend with the Synchron hall sound. Second pass adds IB trumpets, horns & bones. Bersa Hall seems pretty close...


----------



## John R Wilson

PerryD said:


> So I downloaded the VSL free Big bang Orchestra last night and did a very quick play. Tutti patches aren't the best thing to write with. I was curious how IB would blend with the Synchron hall sound. Second pass adds IB trumpets, horns & bones. Bersa Hall seems pretty close...


Sounds like it will blend nicely with Synchron hall.


----------



## Soundbed

User demos and all the words in this thread are beginning to win me over on the brass. I appreciated the flexibility and agility before, but something seemed off about the tone. Less so in the more recent examples. That or I’m simply getting converted (indoctrinated?).


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Soundbed said:


> User demos and all the words in this thread are beginning to win me over on the brass. I appreciated the flexibility and agility before, but something seemed off about the tone. Less so in the more recent examples. That or I’m simply getting converted (indoctrinated?).


The tone is improved massively. The short notes you can play now are more realistic. I use Bersa Hall now because it has a sort of scoring stage sound to it. Add on to that the new clarity of the trumpets. You can get that super sharp sound in brass swells or stabs. This is by far one of my most satisfying purchases so far.


----------



## Trash Panda

Soundbed said:


> User demos and all the words in this thread are beginning to win me over on the brass. I appreciated the flexibility and agility before, but something seemed off about the tone. Less so in the more recent examples. That or I’m simply getting converted (indoctrinated?).


----------



## Bollen

Soundbed said:


> User demos and all the words in this thread are beginning to win me over on the brass. I appreciated the flexibility and agility before, but something seemed off about the tone. Less so in the more recent examples. That or I’m simply getting converted (indoctrinated?).


It's called brainwashed... Welcome to the cult!


----------



## John R Wilson

Soundbed said:


> User demos and all the words in this thread are beginning to win me over on the brass. I appreciated the flexibility and agility before, but something seemed off about the tone. Less so in the more recent examples. That or I’m simply getting converted (indoctrinated?).


I don't think you would be disappointed by Infinite Brass


----------



## El Buhdai

Soundbed said:


> User demos and all the words in this thread are beginning to win me over on the brass. I appreciated the flexibility and agility before, but something seemed off about the tone. Less so in the more recent examples. That or I’m simply getting converted (indoctrinated?).


I initially thought some of the new instruments simply sounded different rather than better, but after some A/B comparisons, I've noticed that synthiness is at an all-time low (particularly on sustained notes), clarity is at an all-time high, instruments sound more rounded/full rather than tinny/thin (by comparison), and player precision and legato are much improved. It's not in your imagination. Infinite Brass is slowly closing in on traditional libraries in tone. I'm finding less and less to criticize with each iteration.

You will love Infinite Brass. I can say that with nearly absolute confidence.


----------



## Soundbed

El Buhdai said:


> I initially thought some of the new instruments simply sounded different rather than better, but after some A/B comparisons, I've noticed that synthiness is at an all-time low (particularly on sustained notes), clarity is at an all-time high, instruments sound more rounded/full rather than tinny/thin (by comparison), and player precision and legato are much improved. It's not in your imagination. Infinite Brass is slowly closing in on traditional libraries in tone. I'm finding less and less to criticize with each iteration.
> 
> You will love Infinite Brass. I can say that with nearly absolute confidence.





John R Wilson said:


> I don't think you would be disappointed by Infinite Brass





NeonMediaKJT said:


> The tone is improved massively. The short notes you can play now are more realistic. I use Bersa Hall now because it has a sort of scoring stage sound to it. Add on to that the new clarity of the trumpets. You can get that super sharp sound in brass swells or stabs. This is by far one of my most satisfying purchases so far.


wow, wow and wow ... ok thanks everyone!!


----------



## Trash Panda

@Soundbed bear in mind I’m a clueless nitwit with a brass addiction who just got into this sample Library scene a year ago.

After acquiring all of the brass/all-in-one libraries below, all I use them for any more is if I want a reference EQ curve to tone shape Infinite Brass. After the 1.6 update, I don’t even feel the need to do that any more. I don’t even think I’m going to waste money on Cinebrass or JXL Brass now, and I was GASing pretty hard for them pre-1.6.

Audio Imperia Nucleus/Jaeger/Talos
Spitfire BBCSO/AROOF
East West Hollywood Brass Gold and Diamond
Cinematic Studio Brass (with Project Colossal)
Performance Samples Caspian/Angry Brass
8dio Century Brass bundle and Majestica 
Adventure Brass
Heavyocity Forzo


----------



## khollister

Just purchased & installed the brass & winds - wow! Only 1 concern, which is there is an incredibly long delay (way more than the 30ms mentioned in the docs) on the brass legatos. It feels more like a few hundred ms. Is this normal? I don't get this on the woodwinds


----------



## khollister

khollister said:


> Just purchased & installed the brass & winds - wow! Only 1 concern, which is there is an incredibly long delay (way more than the 30ms mentioned in the docs) on the brass legatos. It feels more like a few hundred ms. Is this normal? I don't get this on the woodwinds


Might help to RTFM first - brass legato things appears to be triggered by velocity.


----------



## Markrs

Trash Panda said:


> @Soundbed bear in mind I’m a clueless nitwit with a brass addiction who just got into this sample Library scene a year ago.
> 
> After acquiring all of the brass/all-in-one libraries below, all I use them for any more is if I want a reference EQ curve to tone shape Infinite Brass. After the 1.6 update, I don’t even feel the need to do that any more. I don’t even think I’m going to waste money on Cinebrass or JXL Brass now, and I was GASing pretty hard for them pre-1.6.
> 
> Audio Imperia Nucleus/Jaeger/Talos
> Spitfire BBCSO/AROOF
> East West Hollywood Brass Gold and Diamond
> Cinematic Studio Brass (with Project Colossal)
> Performance Samples Caspian/Angry Brass
> 8dio Century Brass bundle and Majestica
> Adventure Brass
> Heavyocity Forzo


I got into it a year ago and went a bit crazy and bought lots. I don’t mind though, it got me through lockdown. I have avoided buying Infinite Brass and Woodwind due to having quite a few libraries, but it is very tempting.

The other aspect that stops me is that I have gone back to basics and I am learning more about composition just using a piano or with Staffpad.

It is on my list, though I imagine I will wait for the strings to come out before going for it. The other option is the SWAM bundle especially when string ensembles is released, but I like the sound of this more, it is just the flexibility I like with SWAM (I use it on iOS, works great with MPE and Musikraken/LEAP controller).


----------



## El Buhdai

khollister said:


> Just purchased & installed the brass & winds - wow! Only 1 concern, which is there is an incredibly long delay (way more than the 30ms mentioned in the docs) on the brass legatos. It feels more like a few hundred ms. Is this normal? I don't get this on the woodwinds


This appears to be the result of the new, more dynamic legato from the 1.6. update. It's not the same for the woodwinds because he hasn't ported the same legato improvements to that library yet. Ive noticed the same increase in delay. Since consistency across instruments is part of the appeal of these libraries, I have no doubt that the new, longer delay will be ported to Infinite Woodwinds in the next update, for better or for worse.


----------



## Tralen

Markrs said:


> I got into it a year ago and went a bit crazy and bought lots. I don’t mind though, it got me through lockdown. I have avoided buying Infinite Brass and Woodwind due to having quite a few libraries, but it is very tempting.
> 
> The other aspect that stops me is that I have gone back to basics and I am learning more about composition just using a piano or with Staffpad.
> 
> It is on my list, though I imagine I will wait for the strings to come out before going for it. The other option is the SWAM bundle especially when string ensembles is released, but I like the sound of this more, it is just the flexibility I like with SWAM (I use it on iOS, works great with MPE and Musikraken/LEAP controller).


My brass library is VSL, which I purchased in 2011. From there to now I have not felt the need to buy any other brass library because, even if the "tone" was improved in comparison to VSL, there were mediocre improvements to the overall usability of the libraries.

The "tone", I found, was something I could shape or even, that was lost in a full mix, but usability is something that actually damages my ability and motivation to create music.

I'm planning on buying Infinite Brass this month, to take advantage of the discount. Even if the "tone" is inferior to my VSL collection (which I don't think it is), I'm certain it will bring back the freedom and pleasure I expect of actually making music.

It makes no sense to have a library with great "tone" if I'm not motivated to use it.


Edit: was replying to @Soundbed, apologies.


----------



## El Buhdai

Tralen said:


> The "tone", I found, was something I could shape or even, that was lost in a full mix, but usability is something that actually damages my ability and motivation to create music.
> 
> It makes no sense to have a library with great "tone" if I'm not motivated to use it.
> 
> 
> Edit: was replying to @Soundbed, apologies.


I would put it similarly, but not quite the same. Usability doesn't damage my ability or desire to make music, but it does make me wanna rip my hair out when I try to power through using certain libraries.

In addition, to me it makes no sense to have a library with the best tone in the world if the "music" you make with it sounds like a bunch of recordings stitched together. The way samples interact with each other within the same patch, articulation, and instrument is infinitely (heh) more important to me than where, how, or with how many mics you recorded your library. Sure, realism can be aided by tone, but musicality is achieved through the versatility (what the library can perform convincingly) and consistency (how well the samples can form musical phrases naturally) of a library, and musicality also aids realism in my book.


----------



## PerryD

El Buhdai said:


> I would put it similarly, but not quite the same. Usability doesn't damage my ability or desire to make music, but it does make me wanna rip my hair out when I try to power through using certain libraries.
> 
> In addition, to me it makes no sense to have a library with the best tone in the world if the "music" you make with it sounds like a bunch of recordings stitched together. The way samples interact with each other within the same patch, articulation, and instrument is infinitely (heh) more important to me than where, how, or with how many mics you recorded your library. Sure, realism can be aided by tone, but musicality is achieved through the versatility (what the library can perform convincingly) and consistency (how well the samples can form musical phrases naturally) of a library, and musicality also aids realism in my book.


Yep. Kind of like a blank canvas compared to a box of puzzle pieces. I am a big fanboy for Samplemodeling and AV Infinite Series.


----------



## Tralen

El Buhdai said:


> I would put it similarly, but not quite the same. Usability doesn't damage my ability or desire to make music, but it does make me wanna rip my hair out when I try to power through using certain libraries.
> 
> In addition, to me it makes no sense to have a library with the best tone in the world if the "music" you make with it sounds like a bunch of recordings stitched together. The way samples interact with each other within the same patch, articulation, and instrument is infinitely (heh) more important to me than where, how, or with how many mics you recorded your library. Sure, realism can be aided by tone, but musicality is achieved through the versatility (what the library can perform convincingly) and consistency (how well the samples can form musical phrases naturally) of a library, and musicality also aids realism in my book.


Good point about transitions as pertaining to realism. I think this is very often overlooked. The tone can be perfect but if there is a sudden change from articulation to articulation, it can throw the immersion off instantly.

I also began to appreciate that realism, in relation to "sounding like a real orchestra", has very little importance to the people that will listen to my music in the end. They simply don't care, and probably wouldn't even care to understand if I was to explain that I used samples.


----------



## El Buhdai

PerryD said:


> Yep. Kind of like a blank canvas compared to a box of puzzle pieces. I am a big fanboy for Samplemodeling and AV Infinite Series.


Thank you for saying it concisely. I can never seem to do that, Ha! I like the analogies


----------



## El Buhdai

Tralen said:


> I also began to appreciate that realism, in relation to "sounding like a real orchestra", has very little importance to the people that will listen to my music in the end. They simply don't care, and probably wouldn't even care to understand if I was to explain that I used samples.


I think if more people came to this conclusion, GAS would mostly die out overnight. But of course you'll just have people spouting the usual "x sample library got me paid more for a score" or "x library got me more gigs" rhetoric that a lot of experienced composers like to push. Despite heavily preferring Infinite over others, to me, someone's libraries of choice is far less significant than the sound they manage to get out of it. We've all heard amazing demos with "bad" libraries, and amateur demos with good ones. To a certain extent, it's all a matter of skill.


----------



## khollister

El Buhdai said:


> This appears to be the result of the new, more dynamic legato from the 1.6. update. It's not the same for the woodwinds because he hasn't ported the same legato improvements to that library yet. Ive noticed the same increase in delay. Since consistency across instruments is part of the appeal of these libraries, I have no doubt that the new, longer delay will be ported to Infinite Woodwinds in the next update, for better or for worse.


I admit I don't quite see the point of the very slow transitions that don't seem to have any portamento with them (e.g. horn). The 'bones work as expected and the euphonium (yea!) has some portamento it seems. In any case, it is easy enough to dial up the Legato Minimum setting to force the quicker transitions. My personal problem is that I tend to play at low velocity when playing quiet passages (you know, the piano thing) and playing with low dynamics but high velocity is really counter intuitive for me at least. I really need to watch Aaron's 1.6 video again to get some of the fine points I guess.

That aside, the entire approach is quite refreshing without the need to futz with articulation maps. So far nothing sounds "synthy" at all. I was very close to buying VSL Synchron Brass (I have Strings Pro, BBO and Synchronized Woodwinds) but now I'm looking forward to Infinite Strings. If it is as impressive and playable as the winds, there will be a bunch of libraries getting relegated to archive drives.

A big plus is it is very M1 laptop compatible due to disk and RAM footprint. And no bullshit authorization schemes or funky proprietary players (although the Synchron player is quite nice).


----------



## novaburst

khollister said:


> I admit I don't quite see the point of the very slow transitions that don't seem to have any portamento with them (e.g. horn). The 'bones work as expected and the euphonium (yea!) has some portamento it seems. In any case, it is easy enough to dial up the Legato Minimum setting to force the quicker transitions. My personal problem is that I tend to play at low velocity when playing quiet passages (you know, the piano thing) and playing with low dynamics but high velocity is really counter intuitive for me at least. I really need to watch Aaron's 1.6 video again to get some of the fine points I guess.
> 
> That aside, the entire approach is quite refreshing without the need to futz with articulation maps. So far nothing sounds "synthy" at all. I was very close to buying VSL Synchron Brass (I have Strings Pro, BBO and Synchronized Woodwinds) but now I'm looking forward to Infinite Strings. If it is as impressive and playable as the winds, there will be a bunch of libraries getting relegated to archive drives.
> 
> A big plus is it is very M1 laptop compatible due to disk and RAM footprint. And no bullshit authorization schemes or funky proprietary players (although the Synchron player is quite nice).


Have got a foot pedal if so, you can press it while dropping mod wheel then play soft and move mod wheel, you can adjust mic volume to get an even more quite start for portamento


----------



## khollister

novaburst said:


> Have got a foot pedal if so, you can press it while dropping mod wheel then play soft and move mod wheel, you can adjust mic volume to get an even more quite start for portamento


I'm not following you


----------



## novaburst

Haha I could not make sense too when I just read, if you have like a sustain pedal press it , then move your mod wheel all the way down then you should be able to play soft, and mimick a portamento riding the mod wheel


----------



## PerryD

A quick brass ensemble test. 1.6 Brassy!


----------



## Jamus

El Buhdai said:


> This appears to be the result of the new, more dynamic legato from the 1.6. update. It's not the same for the woodwinds because he hasn't ported the same legato improvements to that library yet. Ive noticed the same increase in delay. Since consistency across instruments is part of the appeal of these libraries, I have no doubt that the new, longer delay will be ported to Infinite Woodwinds in the next update, for better or for worse.


I'm thinking a natural consequence of improved scripting could be longer processing times. I know nothing about any of this computer stuff though 😁


----------



## Fibigero

I recently bought infinite brass and have a question: 
I see there is no horn ensemble patch. Let's say I have a unisono line and want 6 horns play the same line for a while. if I create an individual track for each horn will it sound like 6 horns are playing it? Or rather six times one horn? I mean for strings for example, if you wanna have 14 violins play unisono, the violins ensemble patch obviously sounds completely different than having 14 tracks in your DAW with a solo violin loaded into each one. So my question is, how is infinite brass solving it making it not sound like individual horns?


----------



## Loïc D

Each horn is different so you won’t get phasing issue, so it won’t be 6 times same horn.
Still, 6 different horns are not exactly sounding like 6 horns together in the same room.
My opinion : in the mix, I don’t care much and I appreciate immensely to have 6 horns to write to.
If I want a big fat sound, I add a pinch of Junxie XL.


----------



## Saxer

Make sure to switch on the humanize button for all horns but #1. That adds variations in timing and tuning For a more realistic ensemble sound. Since update 1.6 it’s switched off by default.


----------



## shawnsingh

In addition to humanize - or even in replacement -

Also experiment with a small amount of pitch bend or a very slow vibrato rate and low depth, different for each instrument. I guess with 1.6 you could more directly do it with the pitfh accuracy setting.

Also experiment with transposition trickjv

And also experiment with unique recorded midi performances for each track.

And also experiment with different mic mix on each instrument too. Seems drastic until you really hear the different sound of two different soloists playing next to each other, the really do sound reasonable different.

And importantly, make sure each horn is not using the same positional IR.

With those the tricks, it should be possible to get a very nice thick and brassy sound from ensembles in unison!


----------



## Tralen

shawnsingh said:


> In addition to humanize - or even in replacement -
> 
> Also experiment with a small amount of pitch bend or a very slow vibrato rate and low depth, different for each instrument. I guess with 1.6 you could more directly do it with the pitfh accuracy setting.
> 
> Also experiment with transposition trickjv
> 
> And also experiment with unique recorded midi performances for each track.
> 
> And also experiment with different mic mix on each instrument too. Seems drastic until you really hear the different sound of two different soloists playing next to each other, the really do sound reasonable different.
> 
> And importantly, make sure each horn is not using the same positional IR.
> 
> With those the tricks, it should be possible to get a very nice thick and brassy sound from ensembles in unison!


Great tips, thanks.

To make individual instruments sound more like an ensemble, I also like to saturate them together. In the case of brass, I like to add some bassy tape saturation to make them sound heavier.


----------



## TimCox

Just to pop in here with some ensemble tips: I get the most believable sound for the brass ensembles by running the studio IR for everything and then feeding the entire brass section into Teldex in Altiverb. You can use whatever scoring stage/hall you want, I use Teldex so I can blend my strings and brass nicely with Berlin Winds


----------



## Bollen

Fibigero said:


> the violins ensemble patch obviously sounds completely different than having 14 tracks in your DAW with a solo violin loaded into each one.


That's not necessarily true, I refer you to: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/50-independently-programmed-strings-is-it-worth-it.98797/

And full ensemble for comparison: https://vi-control.net/community/th...med-strings-is-it-worth-it.98797/post-4647273


----------



## Jamus

Fibigero said:


> I recently bought infinite brass and have a question:
> I see there is no horn ensemble patch. Let's say I have a unisono line and want 6 horns play the same line for a while. if I create an individual track for each horn will it sound like 6 horns are playing it? Or rather six times one horn? I mean for strings for example, if you wanna have 14 violins play unisono, the violins ensemble patch obviously sounds completely different than having 14 tracks in your DAW with a solo violin loaded into each one. So my question is, how is infinite brass solving it making it not sound like individual horns?


In short, Infinite is designed with building sections in mind. Each horn has its own variations in the tone, pitch, timing and controls before you even start entering your own MIDI data. Do not forget also that the IR stage positions of each horn is different, as is every other instrument in IB and IW. It's so good 😁


----------



## Soundbed

I’m looking for some exposed French horn solo lines. Any user demos? (Preferably with 1.6 in case there were any improvements.)


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Soundbed said:


> I’m looking for some exposed French horn solo lines. Any user demos? (Preferably with 1.6 in case there were any improvements.)


I did a small test of the Prometheus theme if that counts


Come to think of it, this might've been a couple of horns, not just solo.


----------



## Trash Panda

Soundbed said:


> I’m looking for some exposed French horn solo lines. Any user demos? (Preferably with 1.6 in case there were any improvements.)


Got anything in particular in mind? Preferably something with MIDI so only minimal tweaking is involved.


----------



## Soundbed

Trash Panda said:


> Got anything in particular in mind? Preferably something with MIDI so only minimal tweaking is involved.


Twist my arm. 

Well, since you asked, I guess the first thing I'd throw at it would be this, and compare / contrast with the results from Majestic Horn.

Minimal tweaking.

First pass is the "default" Legato patch as soon as you load it up. The 2nd pass enables some more mics, round robins, convolution and "Longer".


----------



## PerryD

Love my Samplemodeling S&ES but I got a great deal on a second hand license for Synchron Strings Pro. I am happy with how IB and IWW blend with the Synchron stage when using the Bersa hall. This was my _first_ play with SSP so I unfortunately only used some tutti presets. IB & IWW were fun in this context.


----------



## Trash Panda

Soundbed said:


> Twist my arm.
> 
> Well, since you asked, I guess the first thing I'd throw at it would be this, and compare / contrast with the results from Majestic Horn.
> 
> Minimal tweaking.
> 
> First pass is the "default" Legato patch as soon as you load it up. The 2nd pass enables some more mics, round robins, convolution and "Longer".



Here's a quick and dirty edit (MP3 and MIDI). Had to add some modulation data so it didn't sound too flat. I did add a little touch of vibrato in a few spots too (CC21) for fun. 

All three examples are Horn 1 default settings, no changing of seating positions or mic levels.

View attachment Star Wars French Horn - IB 1.6.mp3


#1 Mozarteum (RT 1.5)
#2 Bersa Hall (RT 0.9)
#3 Studio RT (0.5)

@aaronventure does a better job on this line than me in his 1.4 Brass walkthrough (4:56)


----------



## Wendolinny

Soundbed said:


> Twist my arm.
> 
> Well, since you asked, I guess the first thing I'd throw at it would be this, and compare / contrast with the results from Majestic Horn.
> 
> Minimal tweaking.
> 
> First pass is the "default" Legato patch as soon as you load it up. The 2nd pass enables some more mics, round robins, convolution and "Longer".



EDIT: Too late... 
I found the Soloist position especially intriguing for this kind of work, so I chose that. (My MIDI massageing could also use a bit more work, I guess...)
File A – Solo position, Mics out of the box, Mozarteum
View attachment IB1.6-Force-A.mp3

File B – Solo position, Mixed mic 4, Bersa
View attachment IB1.6-Force-B.mp3




Trash Panda said:


> Here's a quick and dirty edit (MP3 and MIDI). Had to add some modulation data so it didn't sound too flat. I did add a little touch of vibrato in a few spots too (CC21) for fun.
> 
> All three examples are Horn 1 default settings, no changing of seating positions or mic levels.
> 
> #1 Mozarteum (RT 1.5)
> #2 Bersa Hall (RT 0.9)
> #3 Studio RT (0.5)


Cool idea with the vibrato! It adds to the realism, sounding almost like that slightly quivered breath flow which brass players sometimes encounter.


----------



## Trash Panda

Amazing how you can have three different people do the exact same part with the same library and it comes out in three distinctive flavors. These libraries are the End Game for me.


----------



## aaronventure

Soundbed said:


> Twist my arm.
> 
> Well, since you asked, I guess the first thing I'd throw at it would be this, and compare / contrast with the results from Majestic Horn.
> 
> Minimal tweaking.
> 
> First pass is the "default" Legato patch as soon as you load it up. The 2nd pass enables some more mics, round robins, convolution and "Longer".



I'm never gonna say no to this theme 



MIDI attached. Obviously, direct MIDI from your instrument doesn't work with Infinite, so you'll find different CC1 and Vibrato (CC20/21). Notes and timing are the same.


----------



## Soundbed

Wow so interesting to hear how each sounds different. I think I'm beginning to catch on to the "infinite" side of things.


Trash Panda said:


> Amazing how you can have three different people do the exact same part with the same library and it comes out in three distinctive flavors. These libraries are the End Game for me.


Yes agreed.



aaronventure said:


> I'm never gonna say no to this theme
> 
> 
> 
> MIDI attached. Obviously, direct MIDI from your instrument doesn't work with Infinite, so you'll find different CC1 and Vibrato (CC20/21). Notes and timing are the same.



Thank you for doing this! I'm more than intrigued now.


----------



## Max Bonsi

I did a little test trying to recreate this woodwinds combo
Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon are IW
Horn is SM

It's just the very first bars of this link



Infinite experiments...


Max
View attachment IW test.mp3


----------



## Bollen

Max Bonsi said:


> I did a little test trying to recreate this woodwinds combo
> Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon are IW
> Horn is SM
> 
> It's just the very first bars of this link
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite experiments...
> 
> 
> Max
> View attachment IW test.mp3



I love Carion!!! I've been following them for years, you should look up the Ligeti Six Bagatelles!


----------



## Soundbed

Wendolinny said:


> My MIDI massageing could also use a bit more work, I guess...


I actually really liked your interpretations(s)


----------



## Toecutter

Wendolinny said:


> EDIT: Too late...
> I found the Soloist position especially intriguing for this kind of work, so I chose that. (My MIDI massageing could also use a bit more work, I guess...)
> File A – Solo position, Mics out of the box, Mozarteum
> View attachment IB1.6-Force-A.mp3
> 
> File B – Solo position, Mixed mic 4, Bersa
> View attachment IB1.6-Force-B.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> Cool idea with the vibrato! It adds to the realism, sounding almost like that slightly quivered breath flow which brass players sometimes encounter.


Aaron is our master but yours is darn cool too. I like the dark bassy sound you went with. Just shows how flexible IB can be. I only miss some subtle progressive vibrato here and there to add even more expression... like a real player would do  (careful to not over do it, you don't want to sound like a synth XD)


----------



## Max Bonsi

Bollen said:


> I love Carion!!! I've been following them for years, you should look up the Ligeti Six Bagatelles!


I did...
Fantastic!!

thanks man


----------



## PerryD

Still doing some Synchron SSP / Infinite blending tests. Ha! There's some IWW Contra Bassoon under the Basses. This is a quick test, so not a lot of attention for the "orchestration". Sounds like a 1950's SciFi track.


----------



## Toecutter

PerryD said:


> Still doing some Synchron SSP / Infinite blending tests. Ha! There's some IWW Contra Bassoon under the Basses. This is a quick test, so not a lot of attention for the "orchestration". Sounds like a 1950's SciFi track.


Getting better and better... you will soon master the arts of the Infinite


----------



## DivingInSpace

Toecutter said:


> Getting better and better... you will soon master the arts of the Infinite


Can you ever really master infinite possibilites?


----------



## lljfnord

Divisimate is on sale for 15% off for two weeks:









Nextmidi Divisimate 15% Off - 1.3 Update Special Offer


KVR Audio News: To celebrate the release of the major 1.3 update, Nextmidi's Divisimate can be ordered at a reduced price for two weeks. Divisimate 1.3 introduced a number of new features to the orchestration softwar...




www.kvraudio.com


----------



## Jorf88

Alright, alright... You've won. I submit. I've joined the cult.

I've been playing with these instruments for all of about 45 minutes and I've realized two things:

1. I wish I would have started with AV instead of "wasting" money elsewhere.
2. I hate my MIDI keyboard. It is not even close to sufficient for me to articulate what I'm trying to play properly. It's not a problem with these instruments, it's definitely my keyboard. Gah. The classic "fixing the lightbulb".

Really, though. As a classically trained performance musician (I'm a cellist but have also picked up guitar and piano), I don't know how else to put it than that the Infinite instruments just "make sense". 
If you understand the basic mechanics of how playing something on one of these instruments would actually need to be done, and you're comfortable in front of a keyboard, your hands will do the right thing for you (most of the time) without a second thought. I'm still getting used to blipping my mod up high when I want an sFzp horn blare. 

This is one of the first libraries that I'm actually really eager to set up my aftertouch to do something. Having growl on hooked to after touch for low brass might be fantastic. I understand the hype with breath controllers and such with this library more than any other that I own because I can feel the granular impact of CC changes much more readily here than I can with anything else.

Now, back to "real" work until I can play with these toys again later today.


----------



## Martin S

Regarding MIDI keyboards and Infinite series… I guess a keyboard with good velocity sensitivity is an advantage with Infinite. In Aaron’s videos he’s using a studiologic with hammer weighted keybed (I think). As I’m not interested in hammer weighted keys (too heavy for me), can any of you recommend a semi-weighted 88 keys that works well with Infinite, in terms of velocity response?

I plan to go all-in once the Infinite Strings are released and would like to be prepared, and have a reasonably priced semi-weighted 88 keys that is proven to work well with Infinite series.


----------



## DANIELE

Jorf88 said:


> Alright, alright... You've won. I submit. I've joined the cult.
> 
> I've been playing with these instruments for all of about 45 minutes and I've realized two things:
> 
> 1. I wish I would have started with AV instead of "wasting" money elsewhere.
> 2. I hate my MIDI keyboard. It is not even close to sufficient for me to articulate what I'm trying to play properly. It's not a problem with these instruments, it's definitely my keyboard. Gah. The classic "fixing the lightbulb".
> 
> Really, though. As a classically trained performance musician (I'm a cellist but have also picked up guitar and piano), I don't know how else to put it than that the Infinite instruments just "make sense".
> If you understand the basic mechanics of how playing something on one of these instruments would actually need to be done, and you're comfortable in front of a keyboard, your hands will do the right thing for you (most of the time) without a second thought. I'm still getting used to blipping my mod up high when I want an sFzp horn blare.
> 
> This is one of the first libraries that I'm actually really eager to set up my aftertouch to do something. Having growl on hooked to after touch for low brass might be fantastic. I understand the hype with breath controllers and such with this library more than any other that I own because I can feel the granular impact of CC changes much more readily here than I can with anything else.
> 
> Now, back to "real" work until I can play with these toys again later today.


You could try a breath controller for dynamics and vibrato, as a trained musician you would feel a great improvement with this libraries.


----------



## El Buhdai

Jorf88 said:


> Alright, alright... You've won. I submit. I've joined the cult.
> 
> I've been playing with these instruments for all of about 45 minutes and I've realized two things:
> 
> 1. I wish I would have started with AV instead of "wasting" money elsewhere.
> 2. I hate my MIDI keyboard. It is not even close to sufficient for me to articulate what I'm trying to play properly. It's not a problem with these instruments, it's definitely my keyboard. Gah. The classic "fixing the lightbulb".
> 
> Really, though. As a classically trained performance musician (I'm a cellist but have also picked up guitar and piano), I don't know how else to put it than that the Infinite instruments just "make sense".
> If you understand the basic mechanics of how playing something on one of these instruments would actually need to be done, and you're comfortable in front of a keyboard, your hands will do the right thing for you (most of the time) without a second thought. I'm still getting used to blipping my mod up high when I want an sFzp horn blare.
> 
> This is one of the first libraries that I'm actually really eager to set up my aftertouch to do something. Having growl on hooked to after touch for low brass might be fantastic. I understand the hype with breath controllers and such with this library more than any other that I own because I can feel the granular impact of CC changes much more readily here than I can with anything else.
> 
> Now, back to "real" work until I can play with these toys again later today.


Welcome to the family. These libraries have changed my music forever. I've got another demo coming soon!


----------



## aaronventure

Jorf88 said:


> This is one of the first libraries that I'm actually really eager to set up my aftertouch to do something.


You can do that with the built in KSP Multiscript called Transformer. You don't even have to do any remapping in the instrments' GUI, just set the the Transformer multiscript to send mono AT to any CC you want (21 for vibrato, 16 for flutter, 17 for growl etc). It's pretty cool.


----------



## Toecutter

Jorf88 said:


> 1. I wish I would have started with AV instead of "wasting" money elsewhere.


XD search this forum and see how many times I've said that. Glad to have you


----------



## Trash Panda

Jorf88 said:


> Alright, alright... You've won. I submit. I've joined the cult.
> 
> I've been playing with these instruments for all of about 45 minutes and I've realized two things:
> 
> 1. I wish I would have started with AV instead of "wasting" money elsewhere.
> 2. I hate my MIDI keyboard. It is not even close to sufficient for me to articulate what I'm trying to play properly. It's not a problem with these instruments, it's definitely my keyboard. Gah. The classic "fixing the lightbulb".
> 
> Really, though. As a classically trained performance musician (I'm a cellist but have also picked up guitar and piano), I don't know how else to put it than that the Infinite instruments just "make sense".
> If you understand the basic mechanics of how playing something on one of these instruments would actually need to be done, and you're comfortable in front of a keyboard, your hands will do the right thing for you (most of the time) without a second thought. I'm still getting used to blipping my mod up high when I want an sFzp horn blare.
> 
> This is one of the first libraries that I'm actually really eager to set up my aftertouch to do something. Having growl on hooked to after touch for low brass might be fantastic. I understand the hype with breath controllers and such with this library more than any other that I own because I can feel the granular impact of CC changes much more readily here than I can with anything else.
> 
> Now, back to "real" work until I can play with these toys again later today.


Welcome to the Dark Side. Infinite Series allows samples to do things that some would consider…unnatural.


----------



## FireGS

Trash Panda said:


> Welcome to the Dark Side. Infinite Series allows samples to do things that some would consider…unnatural.




I'll crawl back into my hole now.


----------



## aaronventure

FireGS said:


> I'll crawl back into my hole now.



Man, Oscar Isaac looks like he's dying inside saying that line.


----------



## FireGS

aaronventure said:


> Man, Oscar Isaac looks like he's dying inside saying that line.


He knew. We all knew, too.


----------



## El Buhdai

Toecutter said:


> XD search this forum and see how many times I've said that. Glad to have you


I consider myself lucky to have heard the potential in these libraries when they sounded uhhh... let's just say... less than stellar (compared to now anyway. At the time I still thought they were amazing). I purchased them when Infinite Brass was at 1.3.1 and Infinite Woodwinds was at 1.1.

Based on what the rest of you guys have said here, I've potentially saved thousands of dollars on redundant libraries in search of just that tiny extra bit of color or style that my existing collection libraries just can't achieve. Infinite Brass does it all for me, even smooth jazz (yes... demo coming soon). Infinite Woodwinds needs a bit of extra work to catch up to where the brass are, but they sound great too.

On that note...

P.S.: Dear Aaron Venture, all I want for Infinite Christmas are improved saxophones with more bite and a higher dynamics limit. For the time being I think I've squeezed a sound out of them that you all might find to be quite impressive, or at least I hope so!


----------



## Denkii

El Buhdai said:


> P.S.: Dear Aaron Venture, all I want for Infinite Christmas are improved saxophones with more bite and a higher dynamics limit. And I would love strings for black friday.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## Tralen

I finally joined the Infinite Club yesterday. Now I'm off to play.

If I disappear from VI-C during the following weeks, do send help.


----------



## Trash Panda

Tralen said:


> I finally joined the Infinite Club yesterday. Now I'm off to play.
> 
> If I disappear from VI-C during the following weeks, do send help.


Check out the shared MIDI files of the demos. It will be the best crash course you can find in making these libraries sing. Enjoy!


----------



## Jorf88

aaronventure said:


> You can do that with the built in KSP Multiscript called Transformer. You don't even have to do any remapping in the instrments' GUI, just set the the Transformer multiscript to send mono AT to any CC you want (21 for vibrato, 16 for flutter, 17 for growl etc). It's pretty cool.


To make a random remark on this forum and get an answer direct from the creator is unreal. I work in a computation-based, software-heavy field and that's like a dream come true, even if it's just a hobby.

Thanks for everything you've done here, including that pointer! I'll definitely give that a try tonight. Growl-y low brass ensemble, here we goooooooo!

I feel obligated, of course, to give into the forum memes. I am a string player, after all.... so IS when? 
(I will wait patiently. I would rather have it "right", than have it "right now.")

Thanks again.


----------



## Captain Oveur

Mods need to add a +1 emoji to the react list so AV can delay IS more efficiently.


----------



## El Buhdai

Time for another demo!

I think I posted a really old version of this a couple years ago, but it was only a third of what exists now. Recently I added a whole bunch to it.

I wanted to take some more time to polish the MIDI and mix, but I was too excited and proud of the genre blending I did in this one to wait any longer. I won't spoil anything. If you've read this cryptic message and are even remotely curious, I'd be honored if you'd give it a listen. It's a pretty ambitious WIP track of mine that I've been slowly testing and iterating on for years between other musical projects.

P.S.: I think the end is one of the most beautiful things I've ever written. I hope you all enjoy!

Instruments are as follows...

*Infinite Woodwinds 2.0*
1 Piccolo
2 Flutes
2 Oboes
1 English Horn
2 Clarinets + Soloist/Maestro
1 Bass Clarinet
2 Bassoons
1 Tenor Sax

*Infinite Brass 1.6*
4 Trumpets + Soloist/Maestro
6 French Horns
2 Euphoniums
1 Tuba

*Strings:*
About 80% CSS & 20% Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition
Performance Samples' Con Moto Violin

*Percussion:*
A mix of Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition Percussion 
& legacy Hollywood Orchestra Percussion

As usual, any questions are welcome.


----------



## Bollen

El Buhdai said:


> Time for another demo!
> 
> I think I posted a really old version of this a couple years ago, but it was only a third of what exists now. Recently I added a whole bunch to it.
> 
> I wanted to take some more time to polish the MIDI and mix, but I was too excited and proud of the genre blending I did in this one to wait any longer. I won't spoil anything. If you've read this cryptic message and are even remotely curious, I'd be honored if you'd give it a listen. It's a pretty ambitious WIP track of mine that I've been slowly testing and iterating on for years between other musical projects.
> 
> P.S.: I think the end is one of the most beautiful things I've ever written. I hope you all enjoy!
> 
> Instruments are as follows...
> 
> *Infinite Woodwinds 2.0*
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 2 Clarinets + Soloist/Maestro
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Tenor Sax
> 
> *Infinite Brass 1.6*
> 4 Trumpets + Soloist/Maestro
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 1 Tuba
> 
> *Strings:*
> About 80% CSS & 20% Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition
> Performance Samples' Con Moto Violin
> 
> *Percussion:*
> A mix of Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition Percussion
> & legacy Hollywood Orchestra Percussion
> 
> As usual, any questions are welcome.


Very nice! But I think those strings have a bit too much Moto...😜


----------



## El Buhdai

Bollen said:


> Very nice! But I think those strings have a bit too much Moto...😜


Heh. That's CSS for ya! 

There's a reason I only use them when I want a very specific sound.


----------



## Trash Panda

El Buhdai said:


> Time for another demo!
> 
> I think I posted a really old version of this a couple years ago, but it was only a third of what exists now. Recently I added a whole bunch to it.
> 
> I wanted to take some more time to polish the MIDI and mix, but I was too excited and proud of the genre blending I did in this one to wait any longer. I won't spoil anything. If you've read this cryptic message and are even remotely curious, I'd be honored if you'd give it a listen. It's a pretty ambitious WIP track of mine that I've been slowly testing and iterating on for years between other musical projects.
> 
> P.S.: I think the end is one of the most beautiful things I've ever written. I hope you all enjoy!
> 
> Instruments are as follows...
> 
> *Infinite Woodwinds 2.0*
> 1 Piccolo
> 2 Flutes
> 2 Oboes
> 1 English Horn
> 2 Clarinets + Soloist/Maestro
> 1 Bass Clarinet
> 2 Bassoons
> 1 Tenor Sax
> 
> *Infinite Brass 1.6*
> 4 Trumpets + Soloist/Maestro
> 6 French Horns
> 2 Euphoniums
> 1 Tuba
> 
> *Strings:*
> About 80% CSS & 20% Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition
> Performance Samples' Con Moto Violin
> 
> *Percussion:*
> A mix of Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition Percussion
> & legacy Hollywood Orchestra Percussion
> 
> As usual, any questions are welcome.


How the fuck does one go from a classical sound into smooth jazz sound so effortlessly? Bravo!


----------



## Soundbed

Tralen said:


> I finally joined the Infinite Club yesterday. Now I'm off to play.
> 
> If I disappear from VI-C during the following weeks, do send help.


Did you get a breath controller?


----------



## PerryD

Great writing and performance! That last note fade ending would be perfect film music as is, for an abrupt scene change.


----------



## Tralen

Soundbed said:


> Did you get a breath controller?


I use an EWI. That's how I usually record.

I'm still at a very early stage with these libraries, though, I don't know if the combination will work.


----------



## Woodie1972

I don't use an EVI, but from what I read here, people are very positive about it, or the use of a BC


----------



## Denkii

I want soundbed to get these. I'd be so interested about the videos that would follow.


----------



## Soundbed

Denkii said:


> I want soundbed to get these. I'd be so interested about the videos that would follow.


Thanks so much! 

Off topic about my videos:



Spoiler: Off topic about my videos… click to read. 



My channel currently has over 2,000 subscribers and as of this post I’m just over 100 “watch hours” away from 4,000 hours in the past 365 days, which is the requirement for monetizing a YouTube channel. 
(YouTube puts ads in videos on channels that aren’t monetized, so it’s no longer an indicator of whether or not the channel is monetized.) 
I have been trying to think of ways to kick things up a notch.


 I can definitively see myself spending a lot of time with IB. But I am nervous about the controller cost; I played French horn for four years in Jr. High and high school so I assume the keyboard would not feel like enough.


----------



## Denkii

Message received. I will make sure to *YouTuber voice* SSSSSMASH THAT LIKE BUTTON AND HIT THE BELL SO I GET NOTIFICATIONS FOR YOUR CHANNEL.

Jokes aside: I think you are overthinking it. Using infinite series with an extra controller whether it be a BC or one of those midi rings etc. Seems like a nice addition but it is totally not necessary.

There are numerous people who love these libraries and even program the midi in with a mouse.
Me personally, I cannot really play piano. I use the keyboard to record simple chords and melodies with one hand while riding some faders with the other and still in terms of ease of use to make this library do what I want, I would choose these over conventional key switch libraries any day all day.

Whether or not you have one of those more sophisticated controllers does not change the fact that working with infinite is more about getting midi data down in a way where it would resemble how you would play the real instrument in order to achieve what you want instead of choosing the right puzzle pieces to create a performance. Personally although I can't play the piano well I still find it faster to play something in, edit it with the mouse if need be and maybe do a second pass with more faders for additional CCs than trying to make some articulations fit together. It's a different workflow than anything else for sure but once you're getting used to it you will be so annoyed that you cannot just play in what you hear in your head but instead have to refer back to articulations with other libraries.

And the expression your can achieve with these is often something that you cannot get done with key switch libraries. This one spoils you. Trust the lemmings.


----------



## Trash Panda

Soundbed said:


> Thanks so much!
> 
> Off topic about my videos:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Off topic about my videos… click to read.
> 
> 
> 
> My channel currently has over 2,000 subscribers and as of this post I’m just over 100 “watch hours” away from 4,000 hours in the past 365 days, which is the requirement for monetizing a YouTube channel.
> (YouTube puts ads in videos on channels that aren’t monetized, so it’s no longer an indicator of whether or not the channel is monetized.)
> I have been trying to think of ways to kick things up a notch.
> 
> 
> I can definitively see myself spending a lot of time with IB. But I am nervous about the controller cost; I played French horn for four years in Jr. High and high school so I assume the keyboard would not feel like enough.


I played trombone and French Horn in junior high. You don’t need a bath controller to use these.

The hardest part to get used to with these is just HOW responsive the dynamics are. You can fake a new note attack on a long continuous note with a quick flick of CC1.


----------



## ricoderks

Man.... I'm crazy late on this train. Infinite Brass is SO, SO good. Its insane!
I know this is not an exact recreation... All sorts of mistakes, but holy moly...


----------



## Evans

It's the amount of micro-level control I have over short notes without having to really think about it - just effing _play _it _- _that makes me love IB.

I've never used any proper modeling-based products, but being free from keyswitch hell really makes me feel repulsed by other products that I won't name here.


----------



## FireGS

I probably shouldn't share this, but its a snippit of something I'm working on. All the brass is IB.

View attachment DR_24_7_2021(3).mp3


----------



## doctoremmet

That sounds simply fantastic!


----------



## Jorf88

ricoderks said:


> Man.... I'm crazy late on this train. Infinite Brass is SO, SO good. Its insane!
> I know this is not an exact recreation... All sorts of mistakes, but holy moly...


I could say a lot of things, but I'll sum it up as: Excellent.

I can't get over these VIs. I really can't. I just sit down and play. I don't have to think about switching patches, I don't have to think about how to approximate an accented sfz pp articulation that I want at a slightly elongated marcato length... I just play it. How many patches would that take with any other regular library, and how much dynamic blending to ensure that it didn't suddenly sound phase-y or like you added instruments?

Even if, for some unknown reason, I was dead set on using some other library's instrument for the "final" version of something, then Infinite series is at least the best sketching tool that exists. I'm not disappointed with the sound of any of the instruments. A few of the woodwinds and brass sound a tad off at the very highest of their registers, but that could literally be down to the exact instrument/player that was sampled, because embouchure becomes so finnicky at that point. 

Time to remake my entire template.... again.
If I had any other desire, it would be for Aaron to sort of package up the reverb/instrument placement on a stage into its own product (which I would happily pay for separately) so that I could feed other VIs to that where there is no Infinite equivalent (yet). I could probably find bones to pick with the Mozarteum if I wanted to, but I enjoy that room. My biggest issue now is trying to figure out how to put my other instruments into that room.

I'm admittedly still not that great at reverb incorporation to reproduce a realistic room on my own. More practice necessary, I suppose.


----------



## novaburst

Evans said:


> It's the amount of micro-level control I have over short notes without having to really think about it - just effing _play _it _- _that makes me love IB.
> 
> I've never used any proper modeling-based products, but being free from keyswitch hell really makes me feel repulsed by other products that I won't name here.


This


----------



## Trash Panda

ricoderks said:


> Man.... I'm crazy late on this train. Infinite Brass is SO, SO good. Its insane!
> I know this is not an exact recreation... All sorts of mistakes, but holy moly...


Welcome to the family! Do I sense an Infinite Brass expansion for Colossal?


----------



## ricoderks

Trash Panda said:


> Welcome to the family! Do I sense an Infinite Brass expansion for Colossal?


Hell yeah!


----------



## muziksculp

Hi, 

I don't own any IB, or IW. Which one would you recommend to be my first Infinite Library ? They have a sale, I think today is the last day of the sale. So, I'm excited to get one of these two libraries, which one would it be ? IB or IW ? 

Thanks.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't own any IB, or IW. Which one would you recommend to be my first Infinite Library ? They have a sale, I think today is the last day of the sale. So, I'm excited to get one of these two libraries, which one would it be ? IB or IW ?
> 
> Thanks.


IB.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> IB.


OK, That's good enough. I'm going for it. 

Thanks.


----------



## muziksculp

Oh.. can someone confirm that the sale ends today ?


----------



## DivingInSpace

FireGS said:


> I probably shouldn't share this, but its a snippit of something I'm working on. All the brass is IB.
> 
> View attachment DR_24_7_2021(3).mp3


Ooooh, this is one of my absolute favorite pieces from the LoZ games, and this rendition is sounds freaking amazing! Great job man!


----------



## Markrs

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. can someone confirm that the sale ends today ?


2021 Summer Promotion​ 
Infinite Brass just received another big update, featuring new horn mics, low brass refresh and more.
Save up to 25% on Infinite Series through July!
Lasts until Jul 31, 11:59 pm PST.


----------



## muziksculp

Markrs said:


> 2021 Summer Promotion​
> Infinite Brass just received another big update, featuring new horn mics, low brass refresh and more.
> Save up to 25% on Infinite Series through July!
> Lasts until Jul 31, 11:59 pm PST.


Thanks @Markrs . 

Yeah.. I saw this somewhere, but don't see it on the Aaron.venture website. Where did you find this info. ?


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Thanks @Markrs .
> 
> Yeah.. I saw this somewhere, but don't see it on the Aaron.venture website. Where did you find this info. ?


----------



## Markrs

muziksculp said:


> Thanks @Markrs .
> 
> Yeah.. I saw this somewhere, but don't see it on the Aaron.venture website. Where did you find this info. ?


It was a pop up that appeard when you first go to the site. Might only appear once. Try going to the site using incognito/privacy window


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


>


Hmmm.. I don't get that message when I visit their site.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Hmmm.. I don't get that message when I visit their site.





Markrs said:


> Try going to the site using incognito/privacy window


----------



## muziksculp

Markrs said:


> It was a pop up that appeard when you first go to the site. Might only appear once. Try going to the site using incognito/privacy window


Yes, that's it. I got the message going incognito. 

Thanks


----------



## muziksculp

What about IW ? How good are they ? worth getting ? or they still need to be improved to make them compete with other Woodwind Sample libraries ?


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> What about IW ? How good are they ? worth getting ? or they still need to be improved to make them compete with other Woodwind Sample libraries ?


I think on the whole, they're nearly better than every other library simply because of the range of expression (dynamics, vibrato, growl, etc), paired with the excellent triple convolution engine. However, there's still some tone issues that I know for a fact Aaron is working on for an update. While IB has completely, and entirely, replaced everything in my template, not everything in IW has. Damn close, but some things not. 

IMO, if you can swing it, get the bundle. I think they're both worth it, especially with the forever-updates. 

But you did say pick one  I'd pick both. And I have.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> I think on the whole, they're nearly better than every other library simply because of the range of expression (dynamics, vibrato, growl, etc), paired with the excellent triple convolution engine. However, there's still some tone issues that I know for a fact Aaron is working on for an update. While IB has completely, and entirely, replaced everything in my template, not everything in IW has. Damn close, but some things not.
> 
> IMO, if you can swing it, get the bundle. I think they're both worth it, especially with the forever-updates.
> 
> But you did say pick one  I'd pick both. And I have.


Yes, that's why I was asking, I might just get the bundle. Especially knowing that the IW will be further improved. I really love the fact that I can trash keyswitches with these libraries. Makes using Virtual Instruments so much more fun, and producing a lot more efficient.

What do you think are the weak points in the woodwinds ? i.e. Timbre of which woodwind instrument/s ? i.e. how good are the oboe, and eng.horn timbres ?

Plus the small footprint of these libraries is another huge advantage.


----------



## doctoremmet

I love both IB and IW. Sure, maybe there are libraries that have a tone I prefer (there are). But Infinite series instruments are SO MUCH MORE flexible, well maintained, continually developed further and brilliantly supported that I can hardly think of any other developer giving his users THIS MUCH bang for the buck.

Maybe the brass is slightly easier to model, and sounds a bit better, but do not underestimate IW. They’re great, offer a wide range of instruments, and most importantly: easy and FUN to play. If you can afford it, I second the sentiment that the bundle will make you happy.

Oh, and of course eventually you’ll join us in our Infinite Strings anticipation - as the true strings lover you are


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

OK, got the IW + IB Bundle at the current discount.  

I feel like these instruments will spoil me, and make using Key-switched instruments a thing of the past. But so many of our current libraries are based on Key-Switching. Oh ..well maybe one day all developers will get rid of Key-switches. But Aaaron Venture is ahead of them. 

OH.. and What is the status of Infiniite Strings ?


----------



## doctoremmet

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, got the IW + IB Bundle at the current discount.
> 
> I feel like these instruments will spoil me, and make using Key-switched instruments a thing of the past. But so many of our current libraries are based on Key-Switching. Oh ..well maybe one day all developers will get rid of Key-switches. But Aaaron Venture is ahead of them.
> 
> OH.. and What is the status of Infiniite Strings ?


Welcome to the team buddy!


----------



## muziksculp

doctoremmet said:


> Welcome to the team buddy!


Thanks.. I thought it is a secret cult.


----------



## doctoremmet

muziksculp said:


> Thanks.. I thought it is a secret cult.


Well… we do have shifts where we take turns to dig into Aaron’s garbage containers looking for clues about the IS release. We have a shared spreadsheet that signals trends in the number of pizza boxes and energy drink cans we count. But other than that we’re pretty civilized.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> OH.. and What is the status of Infiniite Strings ?


+1 month for asking.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> +1 month for asking.


LOL.. OK, I won't even mention them anymore.


----------



## Trash Panda

muziksculp said:


> LOL.. OK, I won't even mention them anymore.


Don’t worry. It’s only officially +1 month if it comes from the man himself.


----------



## doctoremmet

Trash Panda said:


> Don’t worry. It’s only officially +1 month if it comes from the man himself.


You clueless nitwit, who told you that! The only ones allowed to ask questions about you-know-what are true Venturistas, like @El Buhdai and @FireGS - all regular folk asking anything immediately slaps on +1m


----------



## Trash Panda

doctoremmet said:


> You clueless nitwit, who told you that! The only ones allowed to ask questions about you-know-what are true Venturistas, like @El Buhdai and @FireGS - all regular folk asking anything immediately slaps on +1m


He didn’t tag @aaronventure in his question, so we’re safe.


----------



## FireGS

Trash Panda said:


> He didn’t tag @aaronventure in his question, so we’re safe.


You _bastard._


----------



## doctoremmet

Trash Panda said:


> He didn’t tag @aaronventure in his question, so we’re safe.


Thank goodness. I may ask Mike to add a “relief” emoji.


----------



## Trash Panda

FireGS said:


> You _bastard._


What? No one has said “ @aaronventure when are Infinite Strings coming out?”

All is well! Y’all need to relax a bit. He’s gotta apply his IB 1.6 magic to the woodwinds before he can go back to work on strings.


----------



## doctoremmet

FireGS said:


> You _bastard._








Glad you asked. Yes I recommend the library. Remember though, it has gone on sale for $18, so never pay more.


----------



## muziksculp

I'm also delighted that IB includes Saxes, so I won't have to bother getting OT's-latest Sax library, Actually I don't have any dedicated Sax libraries. IB is going to be so useful


----------



## FireGS

Trash Panda said:


> What? No one has said “ @aaronventure when are Infinite Strings coming out?”


----------



## doctoremmet

FireGS said:


>


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Soundbed

All right I got it, installed it, recorded an hour of playing with it. Very impressed. Definitely recommended based on my initial impressions. I also got the Woodwinds and need to find the (right) notes to Rhapsody in Blue to make my afternoon complete.


----------



## Trash Panda

Soundbed said:


> All right I got it, installed it, recorded an hour of playing with it. Very impressed. Definitely recommended based on my initial impressions. I also got the Woodwinds and need to find the (right) notes to Rhapsody in Blue to make my afternoon complete.


There’s a MIDI file here. https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-woodwinds-rhapsody-in-blue

Just saying.


----------



## muziksculp

Soundbed said:


> All right I got it, installed it, recorded an hour of playing with it. Very impressed. Definitely recommended based on my initial impressions. I also got the Woodwinds and need to find the (right) notes to Rhapsody in Blue to make my afternoon complete.


Congrats. 

So, You got the Infinite Woodwinds, didn't go for the Infinite Brass ?


----------



## Futchibon

Jorf88 said:


> As a classically trained performance musician (I'm a cellist but have also picked up guitar and piano), I don't know how else to put it than that the Infinite instruments just "make sense".


What do you think of cello vsts? Do you have a favourite?


----------



## rnb_2

muziksculp said:


> Congrats.
> 
> So, You got the Infinite Woodwinds, didn't go for the Infinite Brass ?


I took that as meaning that he got the bundle, as he’d previously only mentioned IB.


----------



## Soundbed

here's a moment when I extracted the clarinet (in the middle of playing with the trombones) because I discovered how to "bend" notes and it caught me completely off guard.

watch your ears because i end up laughing much louder than the music!  

View attachment Infinite Brass Audio Extract.mp3



Trash Panda said:


> There’s a MIDI file here. https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-woodwinds-rhapsody-in-blue
> 
> Just saying.


so much to learn!


muziksculp said:


> Congrats.
> 
> So, You got the Infinite Woodwinds, didn't go for the Infinite Brass ?


got both / bundle


rnb_2 said:


> I took that as meaning that he got the bundle, as he’d previously only mentioned IB.


yep


----------



## muziksculp

Trilling with these type of libraries, (i.e. IB, IW, SM Brass, SM Solo & Ens. Strings, AM Brass, AM Solo Strings) is so much more realistic, and flexible than using the Trill Articulations in many Sample Libraries which I dislike, they always sound very rigid, and robotic, and lack smooth connectivity to the notes played before and after the trill .


----------



## aaronventure

Soundbed said:


> here's a moment when I extracted the clarinet (in the middle of playing with the trombones) because I discovered how to "bend" notes and it caught me completely off guard.


Don't forget to set the Legato Minimum below 41 if you wish to play gliss (left side of the interface).


----------



## Trash Panda

Uh oh! Omar coming! Everybody hide!


----------



## Denkii

Soundbed said:


> View attachment Infinite Brass Audio Extract.mp3


WE GOT HIM BOYS!


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

muziksculp said:


> Trilling with these type of libraries, (i.e. IB, IW, SM Brass, SM Solo & Ens. Strings, AM Brass, AM Solo Strings) is so much more realistic, and flexible than using the Trill Articulations in many Sample Libraries which I dislike, they always sound very rigid, and robotic, and lack smooth connectivity to the notes played before and after the trill .


This is one thing I love about modeled libraries. It allows you to do things such as trilling effects in a more realistic manner (e.g. having multiple clarinets trilling as a background motion texture), since the slight variations in how fast you play the trills sounds more natural than simply stacking pre-baked trill samples


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> Uh oh! Omar coming! Everybody hide!


Spread the word, darlin’.


----------



## doctoremmet

aaronventure said:


> Spread the word, darlin’.


Wait… is it… TIME?!


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> Spread the word, darlin’.


A man got to have a code.


----------



## FireGS

Soundbed said:


> here's a moment when I extracted the clarinet (in the middle of playing with the trombones) because I discovered how to "bend" notes and it caught me completely off guard.
> 
> watch your ears because i end up laughing much louder than the music!
> 
> View attachment Infinite Brass Audio Extract.mp3
> 
> 
> so much to learn!
> 
> got both / bundle
> 
> yep


Be sure to try the pitch-bend wheel, and you can set the PB range in the lower left.


muziksculp said:


> Trilling with these type of libraries, (i.e. IB, IW, SM Brass, SM Solo & Ens. Strings, AM Brass, AM Solo Strings) is so much more realistic, and flexible than using the Trill Articulations in many Sample Libraries which I dislike, they always sound very rigid, and robotic, and lack smooth connectivity to the notes played before and after the trill .


Be sure that you're playing trills the "right" way with these libs - hold the fundamental note, and tap (while holding) the interval, and release. Ex, hold C, and tap repeatedly C#. Don't press C, then C#, then C, then C#, etc. You can do variable-length trills that way from almost ostinato-like slow to ridiculously fast.


----------



## muziksculp

Now... Who is Omar ?


----------



## h.s.j.e

Trash Panda said:


> A man got to have a code.


----------



## aaronventure

FireGS said:


> Don't press C, then C#, then C, then C#, etc.


Actually, you can do another style of trilling this way. Play C then C# overlapping/legato, then again C but not overlapping. So essentially overlap, followed by no overlap. You can get more control over the accents in lower dynamics this way. Of course, this way is very hard to pull of while playing, so it's easier to click it in. 







How close together the non-overlapping notes are will also have a big impact on how this sounds.


----------



## Denkii

Could you also tell us a trick for speeding up IS development?
Asking for a friend.


----------



## FireGS

aaronventure said:


> Actually, you can do another style of trilling this way. Play C then C# overlapping/legato, then again C but not overlapping. So essentially overlap, followed by no overlap. You can get more control over the accents in lower dynamics this way. Of course, this way is very hard to pull of while playing, so it's easier to click it in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How close together the non-overlapping notes are will also have a big impact on how this sounds.








*I


----------



## artomatic

My first AV purchase! Got the IB before the sale ends! Was close to purchasing VSL's SB
but I love that Aaron keeps improving and adding to his releases.
I've been reading this thread for quite some time now and 
have been impressed with user feedback on Aaron's libs as well as hearing the demos.
Looking forward to incorporating IB in my projects!


----------



## Jorf88

Hour 12 update:
IB and IW are the most expensive purchase I've made. Due to their own price? No, of course not.

No, it's because now every other friggn VI I own feels like a damn chore to use and thus a complete waste of a purchase. I also feel like my MIDI controller is too inferior to articulate what I want (because previously, it was just a sketching tool, where I'd go back and pen everything in the piano roll anyway). 

BLAST YOU AARON. You wonderful developer, never change. Keep your vision. I'll figure out my own misfortunes while my pocket book sobs quietly in the corner. That's the reason I chose to be a scientist... to fund expensive hobbies like fast exotic ca-- no, wait, more VIs. That's right, more VIs and gear.

Now, to find a way to get my FP90 onto my desk, and to find a set of faders to make it fully functional for CC control...


----------



## morganwable

Man, every time I'm only gone for a day or two and I check in to see a bunch of new pages got added to the discussion I get my hopes up... it feels like it's been *years *since "Q1 2021". How do you people stay sane??? 

Even if he flat-out said, "it's gonna be Q1 2023 now, sorry guys" it'd still be a lot better than _not knowing!!!_

At least then I could short-term buy Sample Modeling strings without the paranoia that I'd have retroactively wasted that money a month or two later once IS does actually come out. For all I know, it could come out the day after I buy SM strings.

I mean, given my luck, it probably would.

...Maybe once my next paycheck hits I'll have to take one for the team?


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> How do you people stay sane???


We didn’t.


----------



## El Buhdai

So excited seeing all these people joining the Infinite Cult. At this rate, I think the libraries will finally have the attention they deserve within a year, and become mainstream within two. I've already started seeing them mentioned more often in other threads where people are asking for library recommendations.


----------



## Frederick

Influenced heavily by Soundbed's enthusiasm I also jumped the bandwagon, taking advantage of the sales price for the bundle last minute. Before, I was planning on waiting for the strings first.


----------



## constaneum

I've bought IB and i really love it. Using it in one of my current gaming projects with a bit of big band sound and i have to say the Trumpets really nail it. Here's a portion of the game music featuring IB. Loving the trumpets the most. As for the trombones, i'm still trying to get the best tweak for the sound. what's the preferred tweaks for you guys ?


----------



## Saxer

morganwable said:


> At least then I could short-term buy Sample Modeling strings without the paranoia that I'd have retroactively wasted that money a month or two later once IS does actually come out. For all I know, it could come out the day after I buy SM strings.


Can you buy it today? Maybe we all can chip in?


----------



## DANIELE

morganwable said:


> Man, every time I'm only gone for a day or two and I check in to see a bunch of new pages got added to the discussion I get my hopes up... it feels like it's been *years *since "Q1 2021". How do you people stay sane???
> 
> Even if he flat-out said, "it's gonna be Q1 2023 now, sorry guys" it'd still be a lot better than _not knowing!!!_
> 
> At least then I could short-term buy Sample Modeling strings without the paranoia that I'd have retroactively wasted that money a month or two later once IS does actually come out. For all I know, it could come out the day after I buy SM strings.
> 
> I mean, given my luck, it probably would.
> 
> ...Maybe once my next paycheck hits I'll have to take one for the team?


Look at this thread...I mean, do you really think we are staying sane?!

Anyway the strings will take other months before we could use them, I think end of this year, maybe Q1 2022. You can buy SM strings if you like them (they are working hard on a new big update) and then you will buy IS. I already have SM strings and I'll get IS once is out.

I can't wait for them to come because I already cleaned my template from all the "old" libraries and I never had the need to use them anymore.

Unfortunately the months from now on to the end of the year will also be a big pain for me because I'll wait for another terrible thing. Well, at least the wait for IS will take me up sometime.


----------



## Loïc D

IB has replaced all other brass libraries, save JXL when I want a big brassy trailer sound.
IW too actually.
After weeks of programming my own keyswitching interface, I find out it’s not really necessary anymore.
Can’t wait for the Strings… and why not other instruments (I guess the AV core programming would shine on ethnic winds & brass).


----------



## constaneum

Loïc D said:


> IB has replaced all other brass libraries, save JXL when I want a big brassy trailer sound.
> IW too actually.
> After weeks of programming my own keyswitching interface, I find out it’s not really necessary anymore.
> Can’t wait for the Strings… and why not other instruments (I guess the AV core programming would shine on ethnic winds & brass).


Yes. Something about its sound especially the trumpets when you want them to sound bright like those big brass band sound we always hear. It's something I can't even get with CSB even though I love CSB a lot. And I love IB's flexibility in terms of shaping your own trills or even falls . IB definitely excels in those contexts. Kudos to @aaronventure


----------



## DANIELE

Loïc D said:


> IB has replaced all other brass libraries, save JXL when I want a big brassy trailer sound.
> IW too actually.
> After weeks of programming my own keyswitching interface, I find out it’s not really necessary anymore.
> Can’t wait for the Strings… and why not other instruments (I guess the AV core programming would shine on ethnic winds & brass).


AV should bring ethnic winds to IW sometime in the future, I don't know when but he talked about them in the past.


----------



## constaneum

DANIELE said:


> AV should bring ethnic winds to IW sometime in the future, I don't know when but he talked about them in the past.


I rather ethnic to be released under ethnic. Lol


----------



## aaronventure

constaneum said:


> I rather ethnic to be released under ethnic. Lol


So there's no alpenhorn in your standard orchestra? 

Nonsense.


----------



## constaneum

aaronventure said:


> So there's no alpenhorn in your standard orchestra?
> 
> Nonsense.


Ahahah... 😝


----------



## Evans

constaneum said:


> I rather ethnic to be released under ethnic. Lol


It's called Infinite Woodwinds, not Some Woodwinds.


----------



## Denkii

Not gonna lie...I would kill for an infinite Duduk.


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> Not gonna lie...I would kill for an infinite Duduk.


I'd kill to have all of the winds from EastWest Ra and Silk in the ethnic winds expansion.


----------



## Christianus

Denkii said:


> Not gonna lie...I would kill for an infinite Duduk.


It really becomes a cult when he has to kill himself for other instruments. I hope that AV will keep its current payment method and continue to pay with money, not blood. :D
This market probably does not have enough influence on the invitation to certain Gnostic cults.





Although Paul seemed to have rejuvenated for the last time ...


----------



## Soundbed

Frederick said:


> Influenced heavily by Soundbed's enthusiasm I also jumped the bandwagon, taking advantage of the sales price for the bundle last minute. Before, I was planning on waiting for the strings first.


Hope you’re not disappointed!


----------



## Fibigero

I wonder how (or if?) they will have short and long notes in the same patch for strings so they can be played the same way as the other infinite series and be just as playable. I feel like with strings it has to be really hard to code/implement it that way since something like a spiccato sounds so much more different than an expressive long note. I guess can be done with different CCs/velocities..

But imagine, just imagine, the strings will be as playable and awesome sounding as the other infinite ones and replace CSS and other string libraries. And they already said that there will be true auto-divisi which alone is already a gamechanging function!
Eventually the whole orchestral template just 1 track per instrument 🥲


----------



## Vlzmusic

Fibigero said:


> I wonder how (or if?) they will have short and long notes in the same patch for strings so they can be played the same way as the other infinite series and be just as playable. I feel like with strings it has to be really hard to code/implement it that way since something like a spiccato sounds so much more different than an expressive long note.


Good point, as in bow you have both strength and speed, both of which correlate in various ways, so its not a simple "intensity". I guess Aaron will come up with a musically sounding approximation of the whole thing, so it will sound cool, first and foremost. Frankly, I am more worried about the vibrato.


----------



## PerryD

Now for something different... Looking for a good place for 4 unison trumpets to blast away. I redid an older cover with all IB. *I replaced the mp3. There was some weird string doubling / phasing.*


----------



## Soundbed

Because of another thread, I tried the opening few notes of a game OST this morning.

Final comparison starts at 1:34



Because:






VSL Synchron Brass - intro offer through August 2, 2021


Im just saying that people seem to confuse legato with slurred when it comes to brass. Are you saying that those are mutually exclusive? I'm trying to get over language barriers, as English isn't my first and despite decades of it I do still goof.




vi-control.net


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Soundbed said:


> Because of another thread, I tried the opening few notes of a game OST this morning.
> 
> Final comparison starts at 1:34
> 
> 
> 
> Because:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSL Synchron Brass - intro offer through August 2, 2021
> 
> 
> Im just saying that people seem to confuse legato with slurred when it comes to brass. Are you saying that those are mutually exclusive? I'm trying to get over language barriers, as English isn't my first and despite decades of it I do still goof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



You are fiddling so much it makes me nervous. It makes seem like a lot of work to get a good sound. Form your initial impression, do you think it's a lot of work to get a good sound compared to what you first thought?

Sounds good though. One of my go-to lines when playing horns. I do believe most of the Skyrim soundtrack is samples which means you are probably comparing IB and SM here.


----------



## Soundbed

Jonathan Moray said:


> You are fiddling so much it makes me nervous. It makes seem like a lot of work to get a good sound. Form your initial impression, do you think it's a lot of work to get a good sound compared to what you first thought?
> 
> Sounds good though. One of my go-to lines when playing horns. I do believe most of the Skyrim soundtrack is samples which means you are probably comparing IB and SM here.


No I wouldn't say it takes a lot of work to get a good sound at all.

I played it in and it sounded very close with no edits.

It takes a lot of work to make anything sound "EXACTLY" like something else.

So, all my fiddling was to sculpt what I started with, which was already very good, to sound closer and closer and closer and closer and closer to the OST reference. I was listening and trying to mimic each nuance I was hearing in THAT recording.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Soundbed said:


> No I wouldn't say it takes a lot of work to get a good sound at all.


I agree. A lot of people who are on the fence seems to think that instruments like IB will take a *tremendous *amount of work to make sound good and have the right performance. And in some cases it might be true that IB will take more "massaging" to get the sound your after compared to a sampled one where the performance and tone are already baked in, but I find that in all the other cases, IB is miles ahead getting the sound and performance I want if I don't have a library that matches with what I have in mind.



Soundbed said:


> So, all my fiddling was to sculpt what I started with, which was already very good, to sound closer and closer and closer and closer and closer to the OST reference. I was listening and trying to mimic each nuance I was hearing in THAT recording.


You got pretty close I gotta say for having spent less than a day with the instruments. One thing to keep in mind (I saw you said the same thing in the VSL thread, but it's good to reiterate) is that each performance is slightly different so you might have the perfect sound and performance, but it might have changed slightly the next time around. Like the small gliss on the horn you kept changing. It might be shorter or louder and changing with each playback which can be a bit hard to work with at times when you have the absolute sound in mind already.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

On the topic of ethnic instruments. I think it was in one of the walkthrough Brass 1.4 maybe where he said he was working on the woodwinds ethnic instruments. This is actually something I've been thinking about a lot and hope that Aaron will take on other, more niche instruments eventually.

I personally really hope for a lot of the instruments from something like what's in Dark Era (most of the instruments in the era series to be honest) because most of them are impossible to sample traditionally and have sound realistic without loops or phrases. There's just too many bow changes in something like a taglharpe with bends and noise variation and whatnot, or too many grace notes and flourishes in a lot of ethnic flutes. Doing slides on any of these instruments with the current libraries available? Forget about it...

Or another one of my favourites which seems very hard to sample properly where there's like one or two libraries currently available, the hurdy-gurdy, especially with the buzzing rhythm you can get by "over-pressuring" the string. Or a proper bagpipe. There's just too much potential for this technology to stop at the traditional orchestra!


----------



## Soundbed

Jonathan Moray said:


> each performance is slightly different


yeah it's sort of disorienting but it's more like working with a live player (who has no ego) when those features are enabled. i could have turned them off for a slightly easier workflow i guess.


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> No I wouldn't say it takes a lot of work to get a good sound at all.
> 
> I played it in and it sounded very close with no edits.
> 
> It takes a lot of work to make anything sound "EXACTLY" like something else.
> 
> So, all my fiddling was to sculpt what I started with, which was already very good, to sound closer and closer and closer and closer and closer to the OST reference. I was listening and trying to mimic each nuance I was hearing in THAT recording.


Curious to hear what else you get up to with these. It's true that the horn is the most effective in the collection I think, and doesn't sound too bad in the Skyrim context. I might get them on their own if I could. Long way to go with the rest of the instruments though, it seems.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Soundbed said:


> yeah it's sort of disorienting but it's more like working with a live player (who has no ego) when those features are enabled. i could have turned them off for a slightly easier workflow i guess.


That's exactly the way I see it, and it become even more apparent when dealing with solo lines likes this. But as you say: it's no worse than working with real players. If it's an especially important line then you could just render the line a couple of times and chose the best one - like with real players. In context with a more buried instrument, I've not found it worth it to render multiple takes because each one works they are just humanly different without one being better or worse.

Disabling the humanize feature doesn't mitigate this completely, of course. You still have some human-like differences with each performance and might still have to go through a couple of takes to get the best one for solo work.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mike T said:


> Curious to hear what else you get up to with these. It's true that the horn is the most effective in the collection I think, and doesn't sound too bad in the Skyrim context. I might get them on their own if I could. Long way to go with the rest of the instruments though, it seems.


Definitely not, the euphoniums are the best. Or maybe the trumpets. Or actually, maybe the horns actually are the best. Honestly, IB has very few weak spots anymore. Maybe the trombones still have a little way to go, but with the latest update, all of the instruments have been raise to the same very high standard.


----------



## Wenlone

Hello,

Is it possible to extract the impulse responses from Infinite Series? You can't output the mic positions due to limitations in Kontakt. I would really like to process individual mic positions.

If it's not possible, maybe Aaron Venture could share impulse response files with the library. So we can use our own convolution engine. That way we can process individual mics. Even tweak the impulse responses.

:


----------



## doctoremmet

Wenlone said:


> Hello,
> 
> Is it possible to extract the impulse responses from Infinite Series? You can't output the mic positions due to limitations in Kontakt. I would really like to process individual mic positions.
> 
> If it's not possible, maybe Aaron Venture could share impulse response files with the library. So we can use our own convolution engine. That way we can process individual mics. Even tweak the impulse responses.
> 
> :


I bet Aaron has paid the venues some money to be able to use the IRs, so maybe that wont be a (legal) option for him. I remember there having been some IR licensing issues a year ago - causing a delay in the release of an earlier version.

My 2 cents: great idea, unlikely to materialize.

Added: third cent -> I doubt the licensing agreement allows extracting IRs but haven’t checked


----------



## FireGS

El Buhdai said:


> So excited seeing all these people joining the Infinite Cult. At this rate, I think the libraries will finally have the attention they deserve within a year, and become mainstream within two. I've already started seeing them mentioned more often in other threads where people are asking for library recommendations.


We should stop that. The secret is getting out!!


----------



## Tralen

doctoremmet said:


> I bet Aaron has paid the venues some money to be able to use the IRs, so maybe that wont be a (legal) option for him. I remember there having been some IR licensing issues a year ago - causing a delay in the release of an earlier version.
> 
> My 2 cents: great idea, unlikely to materialize.
> 
> Added: third cent -> I doubt the licensing agreement allows extracting IRs but haven’t checked





> "The license forbids re-sale or re-distribution of Software in part or in whole, as well as usage of Software in other sample library products or virtual instruments."


It seems to prohibit using it to create other instruments, but not using with plugins such as a convolver.

It would be good to know. I'm struggling to sit the instruments with other libraries and using the IRs would help a lot.


----------



## CT

Jonathan Moray said:


> Definitely not, the euphoniums are the best. Or maybe the trumpets. Or actually, maybe the horns actually are the best. Honestly, IB has very few weak spots anymore. Maybe the trombones still have a little way to go, but with the latest update, all of the instruments have been raise to the same very high standard.


Hmm... trombones definitely need work. Most of the woodwinds too it sounds like.

I've recently gotten back into some similar "not quite sampled" VIs I used years ago. It's certainly bewitching to be free of some limitations of working with static samples. Less encouraging though is how little difference there seems to be between what developers could do with timbre in, say, 2008, and what they can do now. Would love to see some very big leaps taken in this regard.


----------



## Jamus

No joke I would be thrilled if some future IW update included recorders. I started watching a recorder player by the name of Sarah Jeffery a couple years ago and it came to my attention that the recorder is beyond underrated.


----------



## doctoremmet

Jamus said:


> No joke I would be thrilled if some future IW update included recorders. I started watching a recorder player by the name of Sarah Jeffery a couple years ago and it came to my attention that the recorder is beyond underrated.


Maybe watch this:


----------



## muziksculp

Mike T said:


> Less encouraging though is how little difference there seems to be between what developers could do with timbre in, say, 2008, and what they can do now. Would love to see some very big leaps taken in this regard.


+1000


----------



## ansthenia

I'm going to be so disappointed if Aaron doesn't do at least three "+1 month" posts leading up to IS release.


----------



## doctoremmet

muziksculp said:


> +1000


Wait. That’s….






years?!

You fool. I’ll never make it until the year 2104.


----------



## FireGS

doctoremmet said:


> Wait. That’s….
> 
> 83.33 years?!
> 
> You fool. I’ll never make it until the year 2104.


It's name shall be passed on from father to son, mother to daughter - down through generations. One day, somewhere, someone will know the truth.


----------



## Soundbed

Jonathan Moray said:


> Disabling the humanize feature doesn't mitigate this completely, of course. You still have some human-like differences with each performance and might still have to go through a couple of takes to get the best one for solo work.


Oh really? Even with pitch accuracy at full? I wonder why that would be.



Mike T said:


> Long way to go with the rest of the instruments though, it seems.


That sounds like a challenge.  Do you have an instrument and a part in mind that someone could try to recreate with v1.6?


Mike T said:


> trombones definitely need work


Ok. Do you have a trombone line (live players) we could try to recreate?



Wenlone said:


> Is it possible to extract the impulse responses from Infinite Series?


I read that there are around 2700 impulse responses. Not sure how exactly they are used or why there are so many but I don’t think it’s typical convolution if that many are integral to the engine.
“The library features a total of over 2700 bespoke impulse responses, all curated to bring the dream of a fully modular virtual brass ensemble to life.”



Tralen said:


> using with plugins such as a convolver.





doctoremmet said:


> to use the IRs


see above comment on 2700 IRs and let me know if there is a subset that would make sense to use in traditional convolution. I’m guessing the high number of IRs has something to do with the sound.


Wenlone said:


> I would really like to process individual mic positions.
> 
> If it's not possible, maybe Aaron Venture could share impulse response files with the library. So we can use our own convolution engine. That way we can process individual mics. Even tweak the impulse responses.


I’m trying to understand what you’d gain. There is a mixer that lets you get a pretty dry sound already, in a studio. You can send the ambient signal to a separate channel already. The other two signals can be mixed already (and the instrument can change to a “close” mic as I understood it although I didn’t play with it much yet as it was extremely bone dry. Aren’t these options “enough”?


----------



## Tralen

Soundbed said:


> see above comment on 2700 IRs and let me know if there is a subset that would make sense to use in traditional convolution. I’m guessing the high number of IRs has something to do with the sound.


I really don't know. I was just expecting that the room IRs (not the instrument) would be something compatible with a convolver.


----------



## doctoremmet

Soundbed said:


> see above comment on 2700 IRs and let me know if there is a subset that would make sense to use in traditional convolution.


Since you quote me, my reaction was to someone else’s suggestion to “use the IRs”. To be clear: I don’t think it can be done legally, nor practically. Nor do I think it makes much sense. Like you said one could opt to use the dry studio signal, or just mix the halls with the rest of one’s track with either a convolution reverb or an algo one.


----------



## Soundbed

doctoremmet said:


> Since you quote me, my reaction was to someone else’s suggestion to “use the IRs”. To be clear: I don’t think it can be done legally, nor practically. Nor do I think it makes much sense. Like you said one could opt to use the dry studio signal, or just mix the halls with the rest of one’s track with either a convolution reverb or an algo one.


Yeah I gotchya. I quoted you simply to augment your legality obstacle with a further (possible) technical complication. Even if one wanted to skirt the law, I’m not sure how they’d accomplish what they intended… with 2700 IRs which ones would they put in their external convolution engine? You get it.


----------



## aaronventure

Soundbed said:


> Because of another thread, I tried the opening few notes of a game OST this morning.
> 
> Final comparison starts at 1:34
> 
> 
> 
> Because:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSL Synchron Brass - intro offer through August 2, 2021
> 
> 
> Im just saying that people seem to confuse legato with slurred when it comes to brass. Are you saying that those are mutually exclusive? I'm trying to get over language barriers, as English isn't my first and despite decades of it I do still goof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



Just a quick hint: Try pushing into the note transitions more. A quick crescendo right before the note ends. You can hear in the original example how the player pushes into the note more right before transitioning to the next one. You can check the MIDI for some of the pieces to see more closely what I mean.

Here's a quick dirty play-in. If you're sequencing instead of playing in, when it comes to CC data, it's easier if you draw it in with the pencil tool.



MIDI attached. Also, note two things: 

in this type of playing, higher velocity = more dip
notes need not always overlap—them being very close is enough for them to feel connected, but without the slur


----------



## aaronventure

Soundbed said:


> Oh really? Even with pitch accuracy at full? I wonder why that would be.


CC1 and note duration. The timing might differ, but the actual duration will be the same down to a millisecond. Vibrato depth as well (rate will differ as it's non-linear).


----------



## Soundbed

aaronventure said:


> higher velocity = more dip


Thanks for replying!
What are you calling a “dip,” using a more brass technique vocabulary word/ description?

Because higher velocities were doing two things for me: 1-changing _when_ the note transition happened (moving it earlier) and 2-changing how quickly a note transition happened (making it _shorter_). I wouldn’t call either of these a “dip”.



aaronventure said:


> Try pushing into the note transitions more.


ok I’ll try that. Your CC 1 is mostly hovering lower than mine in general I think. I was starting higher and not moving it nearly as much as you. I’ll try it your way.




aaronventure said:


> CC1 and note duration. The timing might differ, but the actual duration will be the same down to a millisecond. Vibrato depth as well (rate will differ as it's non-linear).


I don’t understand what you’re saying. My question was: If I don’t change any MIDI, and keep note accuracy to highest and humanization off, will the performance be identical during every playback?
If not, is there any way to get the performance to be identical during every playback (e.g., by turning other features off; like no vibrato)?
If your answer is that vibrato has some randomization, then ok. If there are other randomizations I could disable, what are they?


----------



## aaronventure

Soundbed said:


> What are you calling a “dip,” using a more brass technique vocabulary word/ description?


Inflection.

What I meant was if you went for a higher velocity in these lyrical lines, you'll likely need to dip the dynamics more during the transition to offset for the accent introduced in higher velocity transitions.



Soundbed said:


> Your CC 1 is mostly hovering lower than mine in general I think. I was starting higher and not moving it nearly as much as you. I’ll try it your way.


That's perfectly fine, you're relying more on the Soft Attack (lower velocity than CC1). If you were to flatten out the start of my notes in CC1 and lower the dynamics, you'd get a pretty similar result. I'm just used to playing it in that way.



Soundbed said:


> If I don’t change any MIDI, and keep note accuracy to highest and humanization off, will the performance be identical during every playback?


Ah, sorry, I thought you were asking about the other way around.

Humanize off and Pitch Accuracy at 100% will get you a consistent playback.

There is no way to have the output be 100% the same in a way that if you render it twice and invert phase on one render, it fully cancels out (like it does with conventional libraries). With humanize off and pitch accuracy at 100% it will _sound_ the same, but the miniscule, imperceptible pitch fluctuations and attack artifacts will be different every time (which is why there's no machine-gunning effect).


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> That sounds like a challenge.  Do you have an instrument and a part in mind that someone could try to recreate with v1.6?
> Ok. Do you have a trombone line (live players) we could try to recreate?


Hmm, good question. I've been VERY roughly testing another modeled wind/brass library with some excerpts I'll attach here. Don't have the MIDI handy, so don't go out of your way to duplicate anything, this is just what I'm comparing things to.


As for the trombones, this passage, from the soft start to the big crescendo, is, I think, a great litmus test for them and the brass as a whole. Again, I don't have any MIDI, I prefer to just look at the score and play, but it's a useful test passage whether or not anyone wants to bother trying it.


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> this passage, from the soft start to the big crescendo, is, I think, a great litmus test for them and the brass as a whole


well then. you, uh ... sure know how to set the bar low.  (sarcasm)


----------



## CT

Hey, if we're gonna be serious about virtual instruments and the standards we hold them to, can't pull any punches!


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> Hey, if we're gonna be serious about virtual instruments and the standards we hold them to, can't pull any punches!


Absolutely. That recording has a lot going on. Including being a performance "of a period." And certain aspects of recording techniques from the year I was born.


----------



## emilio_n

I Got Infinite Brass!! I just tried after download, and it is great! 
I am in the club of Aaron Venture fans!!


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> Absolutely. That recording has a lot going on. Including being a performance "of a period." And certain aspects of recording techniques from the year I was born.


Oh yeah, not focused on duplicating the recording characteristics or even that specific performance, that's just the excerpt I had in mind, and my favorite example of it.


----------



## Jorf88

Mike T said:


> Hmm, good question. I've been VERY roughly testing another modeled wind/brass library with some excerpts I'll attach here. Don't have the MIDI handy, so don't go out of your way to duplicate anything, this is just what I'm comparing things to.
> 
> View attachment 54240
> 
> View attachment 54243
> 
> View attachment 54241
> 
> View attachment 54242
> 
> 
> As for the trombones, this passage, from the soft start to the big crescendo, is, I think, a great litmus test for them and the brass as a whole. Again, I don't have any MIDI, I prefer to just look at the score and play, but it's a useful test passage whether or not anyone wants to bother trying it.



I might be interested in trying to write up that Mahler passage... though I'm always particular with exercises like that. I never try to perfectly match a reference recording, I try to create a believable sounding mockup. Trying to exactly match the timbre/tone of an old recording is more of a representation of the recording equipment used than it is the actual sound that was recorded (less true for newer recordings, obviously).

That linked passage is demarked as header 10, measure 142 (brass come in at 143) in the 5th movement of Mahler 2, page 148 in the score I have (I probably got it from IMSLP, who knows when, I score read for fun sometimes because I'm a nerd). The orchestration for the entrance of that short chorale is 4 bones, tuba, and contrabassoon.

That old Bernstein recording is a brilliant interpretation, but somewhat poor quality for sound (in terms of low-end fidelity). You can barely even hear the contrabassoon in that entrance... Anyone who's ever been in the same room as a contra knows that their pp can only be so quiet, it's still a mammoth instrument and a lot of air movement is necessary through that fan of a reed.

I obviously haven't done it yet, but I don't hear anything there that I don't think IB/IW can't do.
The more I play with these instruments, the more they appeal to me because they literally are instruments. You can sit and practice playing them, and it's time well-spent, because then you can more quickly get what you want out of them when it comes time to actually play in a part that you have in your head.


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> Oh yeah, not focused on duplicating the recording characteristics or even that specific performance, that's just the excerpt I had in mind, and my favorite example of it.


It’s a good example of real musicians.


----------



## CT

Jorf88 said:


> I never try to perfectly match a reference recording


Agreed, like I said, that was just me pointing to the excerpt in question, not a particular performance to emulate down to the creak of a chair.



Jorf88 said:


> I obviously haven't done it yet, but I don't hear anything there that I don't think IB/IW can't do.


I have no doubt they can get the parts performed. What I wonder about is how it will sound.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mike T said:


> Hmm... trombones definitely need work. Most of the woodwinds too it sounds like.


"Definitely" is not the word I would use. They could use some work, but right now they are as good for 90% of the work I need them for as any other library I've tried. The only time I would reach for something else would be super intimate jazz or big bombastic over the top larger-than-life epic scores.

Try getting this sort of sound and performance with any other library (except SM). I think the bones sound perfectly fine.






Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


Aaron Venture stuff are too good not to be on Kontakt Player... :(




vi-control.net







Mike T said:


> Hmm, good question. I've been VERY roughly testing another modeled wind/brass library with some excerpts I'll attach here. Don't have the MIDI handy, so don't go out of your way to duplicate anything, this is just what I'm comparing things to.
> 
> View attachment 54240
> 
> View attachment 54243
> 
> View attachment 54241
> 
> View attachment 54242
> 
> 
> As for the trombones, this passage, from the soft start to the big crescendo, is, I think, a great litmus test for them and the brass as a whole. Again, I don't have any MIDI, I prefer to just look at the score and play, but it's a useful test passage whether or not anyone wants to bother trying it.



Here's my very quick test. It took me a couple of minutes and most of that was spent finding the sheet music and inputting it into my daw. Thanks to @Jorf88 who could actually point out the exact spot otherwise it would have taken quite a bit longer.

I think it's passable. There are probably things that could be improved, but this is where I'm at right now. I hope we get to see a few other versions as well from some other people.

First version is pp the second is mp. The beauty of these instruments is that they work in any range. I didn't do anything different to the midi exact straight up raised it and it still sounds great. No odd spots between two dynamic layers, no phasing, not strange legato.


----------



## vicontrolu

aaronventure said:


> Just a quick hint: Try pushing into the note transitions more. A quick crescendo right before the note ends. You can hear in the original example how the player pushes into the note more right before transitioning to the next one. You can check the MIDI for some of the pieces to see more closely what I mean.
> 
> Here's a quick dirty play-in. If you're sequencing instead of playing in, when it comes to CC data, it's easier if you draw it in with the pencil tool.
> 
> 
> 
> MIDI attached. Also, note two things:
> 
> in this type of playing, higher velocity = more dip
> notes need not always overlap—them being very close is enough for them to feel connected, but without the slur



This is interesting. Quite a lot of work to get a soaring line though. This made me think of something which is awesome and atrocious at the same time: infinite presets!

The idea is you could have a toggle in the instrument (which you can control via midi, ofc) so that if you are doing this kinda line, you activate the "Soaring" preset and it would do the little crescendos and (maybe even correct velocities) at the end of the notes for you whenever its necessary, so you´ll get the nice transition you are looking for without having to micro-ride the modwheel like that.

I am sure there could be presets for other playing styles and there could be different for each instrument as well. But that should be te ultimate boost in speed when doing something with this library cause..lets be honest, sometimes it takes a lot of fiddling to get things right.

I know this defeats the purpose of having a instrument that reacts to your playing, since its kind of limiting it but hey...just crossed my mind. Not sure if its even possible technically. 

Thoughts?


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## mutex

!!!!!!!!!!!! Why didn't you tell me that there was a discount?! I almost missed it!


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## Piotrek K.

vicontrolu said:


> This is interesting. Quite a lot of work to get a soaring line though. This made me think of something which is awesome and atrocious at the same time: infinite presets!


Depends how you look at it. Is this a bit of CC work - well, yes. But with for example Hollywood brass I need to: choose correct patch, massage dynamics and velocity for legato transition or attack, if transition sticks out I need to... change patch ;( etc. So it's not more work. It's different type of work. More streamlined imo, without extra distractors.


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## Jorf88

Piotrek K. said:


> Depends how you look at it. Is this a bit of CC work - well, yes. But with for example Hollywood brass I need to: choose correct patch, massage dynamics and velocity for legato transition or attack, if transition sticks out I need to... change patch ;( etc. So it's not more work. It's different type of work. More streamlined imo, without extra distractors.


This... and my argument for pro-Infinite is that Aaron has essentially provided us fully functional instruments that we can _practice _with. The better you learn these instruments, the easier it becomes to lay down any kind of line with them. I've generally found that what I learn with one instrument will translate to most of the others pretty well, too.

I suppose the same could be said for familiarity with other libraries, but trying to "practice" anything that involves keyswitching is a horrid experience.

I might get around to the Mahler thing later today after work. 


Jonathan Moray said:


> "Definitely" is not the word I would use. They could use some work, but right now they are as good for 90% of the work I need them for as any other library I've tried. The only time I would reach for something else would be super intimate jazz or big bombastic over the top larger-than-life epic scores.
> 
> Try getting this sort of sound and performance with any other library (except SM). I think the bones sound perfectly fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread
> 
> 
> Aaron Venture stuff are too good not to be on Kontakt Player... :(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my very quick test. It took me a couple of minutes and most of that was spent finding the sheet music and inputting it into my daw. Thanks to @Jorf88 who could actually point out the exact spot otherwise it would have taken quite a bit longer.
> 
> I think it's passable. There are probably things that could be improved, but this is where I'm at right now. I hope we get to see a few other versions as well from some other people.
> 
> First version is pp the second is mp. The beauty of these instruments is that they work in any range. I didn't do anything different to the midi exact straight up raised it and it still sounds great. No odd spots between two dynamic layers, no phasing, not strange legato.


This was great. I think I'd like to get the entrances to have a little bit more softness to them, which probably just a personal preference. I might also opt for a little more humanization instead of having it quite so locked in.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jorf88 said:


> This was great. I think I'd like to get the entrances to have a little bit more softness to them, which probably just a personal preference. I might also opt for a little more humanization instead of having it quite so locked in.


I tried to match the recording while also reading the sheet music which has accent markings for the solo trombone that almost seems to be omitted in the recording. But I agree, it sounds better with softer entrances. There's very little humanization in this one. Only pitch accuracy knob and a few changes here and there for each of the instruments, but it was a very quick job so didn't want to record each part individually with my current controller. I even realized that I forgot to turn on the humanize feature inside of IB for any of the instruments. Probably out of habit of always having it disabled in the earlier version of IB.

Either way, here's attempt #2 with a few minor changes. If I want even softer entrances, I would have to use CC11 since I'm already down in the 20% range for CC1. I rendered it a couple of times and took the take I like the most. Although, it's not perfect. There are few parts that stick out.


----------



## DANIELE

Even if a breath controller (or similar) is not needed to perform well with these libraries I think it could be very useful to understand how to correctly shape CC curves.

I use to play randomly with the instruments, the keyboard and the breath controller I have, sometime I play over some well known soundtrack I like and I try to reproduce the same feeling.

Then I try to record some lines and I look at the CC shapes. This is the faster way I found to learn how to write for these instruments. After that I must say it is very fast to write for them, without using any controller or any keyboard. Using keyswitches on the other side is terrible, I kept loosing the music due to the time spent in programming the line.

Now I already almost instantly know how to write down the note speaking of length, velocity, dynamics and so on...


----------



## Fibigero

i have a question: In this video of Infinite Brass at this point:  he is playing chords, having multiple patches in one kontakt instance, each going to different midi outs. I tried to set it up the same so I'd be able to play chords this way, but unable to make the routing work. Can anyone tell me how to do it correctly in Logic or Studio one? Or does anyone have a youtube link where it's well demonstrated?


----------



## Woodie1972

You can play chords with the sustain pedal down, I guess this is how Aaron does it. Or he has pre-programmed this line in his DAW, distributed over the instruments and plays that for the demo.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Fibigero said:


> i have a question: In this video of Infinite Brass at this point:  he is playing chords, having multiple patches in one kontakt instance, each going to different midi outs. I tried to set it up the same so I'd be able to play chords this way, but unable to make the routing work. Can anyone tell me how to do it correctly in Logic or Studio one? Or does anyone have a youtube link where it's well demonstrated?



Sorry, that's not how it works. There's no built-in auto-divisi function in Infinite Brass and you would have to either play each line individually; use the sustain pedal to deactivate legato and play chords (this will only apply to the midi channel and instrument you are currently playing on); or use something like divisimate to play through so that divisimate intelligently assigns each note to a midi channel.


----------



## Fibigero

I see.. would be great to have one ensemble patch that does auto divisi. The sustain pedal way doesn't create a good sound. For sketching purposes I use a different library now where I use ensemble patches to get ideas down.


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## doctoremmet

DivisiMate is on sale, 15% off.




(Note: dynamics are controlled with a BC)


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## mutex

I'm downloading IB right now. But why is the download so slow? 650 KB/s is a real pain on a 9.9GB file :(


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## Soundbed

Jonathan Moray said:


> here's attempt #2 with a few minor changes.


needs more chair movements and bows accidentally knocking stands in the background.

/feeling punchy, sorry


mutex said:


> I'm downloading IB right now. But why is the download so slow? 650 KB/s is a real pain on a 9.9GB file :(


download was super fast for me, completed IB and IW in a couple handfuls of minutes each.


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## NeonMediaKJT

Someone should legit create a library of hall sounds to decorate virtual orchestrations with 😂


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## Trash Panda

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Someone should legit create a library of hall sounds to decorate virtual orchestrations with 😂


Like the Cinesamples room tone? There's a nice big THUMP right at the beginning of it.


----------



## duringtheafter

Soundbed said:


> needs more chair movements and bows accidentally knocking stands in the background.
> 
> /feeling punchy, sorry
> 
> download was super fast for me, completed IB and IW in a couple handfuls of minutes each.


Take your pick!


----------



## Martin S

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Someone should legit create a library of hall sounds to decorate virtual orchestrations with 😂


Find a good recording of John Cage 4:33, and Bob’s yer Uncle… All the hall sounds you’ll ever need


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## CT

Jonathan Moray said:


> "Definitely" is not the word I would use.


That's fair enough. It is, however, the word I'd use.

Listened to your examples, and I wonder how "straight" your dynamic CC lanes are; I find myself wanting to hear just a little more breathing quality on each chord. I also miss the natural way trombonists tune to each other in such a passage, and given the nature of this library, I think it would be possible to approximate that which is an interesting prospect.

In any case, what I envisioned as the tricky spot is the later crescendo, as that's seemingly when Infinite Brass, mostly the low brass, falls apart to my ears into something extremely robotic. If anyone else takes the time, that will be the real test. I will give it a shot with a few other libraries in the meantime.


----------



## vicontrolu

Mike T said:


> If anyone else takes the time


Maybe if you post the midi with the parts and the notes there are more chances for people to take the time.

I am curious about this too


----------



## HannesH

Fibigero said:


> i have a question: In this video of Infinite Brass at this point:  he is playing chords, having multiple patches in one kontakt instance, each going to different midi outs. I tried to set it up the same so I'd be able to play chords this way, but unable to make the routing work. Can anyone tell me how to do it correctly in Logic or Studio one? Or does anyone have a youtube link where it's well demonstrated?



You could try out the Multi Divisi Kontakt script: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/multi-script-tools-free-divisi-scripts.59985/. With it, you can send chords to the script on one midi channel and it will split it up into different voices on other midi channels in the same Kontakt instance.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mike T said:


> Listened to your examples, and I wonder how "straight" your dynamic CC lanes are


They are pretty straight. Maybe a bit too straight in places, but that's the trade-off when working in such a limited range without resorting to using CC11.



Mike T said:


> I also miss the natural way trombonists tune to each other in such a passage, and given the nature of this library, I think it would be possible to approximate that which is an interesting prospect.


Absolutely, and with Infinite Brass you can. You can have them tune to each other as much as you want, or have them not tune to each other like the worst school band you've ever heard.



Mike T said:


> I find myself wanting to hear just a little more breathing quality on each chord.


You could always add a bit more breath to them.


----------



## CT

vicontrolu said:


> Maybe if you post the midi with the parts and the notes there are more chances for people to take the time.
> 
> I am curious about this too


I'm not a big believer in relying on MIDI for comparisons, with any degree of tweaking. There are just too many variables unique to particular VIs. That said, if I get around to testing it myself, I could put it here if anyone wants it.


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## HereGiam

I've had a bash at that Mahler excerpt. There's minimal humanization on trombone 1, and a little more on the others. Attack/Pitch Accuracy is default.

It's not perfect but I'm just starting to learn how to play these instruments. I find it fascinating how making very small variations to velocity and CC1 can make such a difference to the sound.

View attachment Mahler - Symphony No. 2 - 5. Im Tempo des Scherzos - 10. Excerpt.mp3


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## Trash Panda

Meanwhile, at Aaron Venture HQ...

Just a little something I slapped together over the lunch break.

Dressed:
View attachment AV IB 1.6 Imperial March (dressed).mp3


Birthday Suit:
View attachment AV IB 1.6 Imperial March (naked).mp3


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## Soundbed

vicontrolu said:


> Maybe if you post the midi with the parts and the notes there are more chances for people to take the time.
> 
> I am curious about this too


You mean like here?

https://gustavmahler.com/midi.html 

Symphony No. 2
MIDI: 1. First Movement
MIDI: 2. Second Movement
MIDI: 3. Third Movement
MIDI: 4. Fourth Movement
MIDI: 5. Fifth Movement <<<

I have not checked these myself for accuracy, it was only the first Google result I got.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

When was Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 released ? 

Are we expecting another update for the Woodwinds this year ?


----------



## Getsumen

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> When was Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 released ?
> 
> Are we expecting another update for the Woodwinds this year ?


uh oh. Strings delayed to 2047 now

Most likely not I presume since Brass just finished and Strings is still in the works


----------



## muziksculp

Getsumen said:


> uh oh. Strings delayed to 2047 now
> 
> Most likely not I presume since Brass just finished and Strings is still in the works


LOL... But you didn't answer my question. 

When was IW 2.0 released ?


----------



## Trash Panda

muziksculp said:


> LOL... But you didn't answer my question.
> 
> When was IW 2.0 released ?


Q4 2020. We may see a woodwinds update, but I haven’t seen any kind of public talk about it yet.


----------



## muziksculp

Trash Panda said:


> Q4 2020. We may see a woodwinds update, but I haven’t seen any kind of public talk about it yet.


OK. Thanks


----------



## Tralen

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks


If I recall, Aaron did say he would apply the recent improvements of the Brass to the Woodwinds. So I would guess there is an update coming.


----------



## Trash Panda

Tralen said:


> If I recall, Aaron did say he would apply the recent improvements of the Brass to the Woodwinds. So I would guess there is an update coming.


The Infinite Cycle. One library gets an update, then the same improvements are made to the other, then everyone asks “WHAT ABOUT STRINGS???”

+1 month

Repeat.


----------



## aaronventure

muziksculp said:


> When was Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 released ?


Oct 12, 2020.



muziksculp said:


> Are we expecting another update for the Woodwinds this year ?


I hope so.


----------



## muziksculp

@aaronventure ,

Thank You for the feedback.


----------



## Jorf88

Alright, finally got around to writing up that Mahler bit.
All MIDI parts recorded individually.
I started with the contra, then top down in terms of voices, and then re-recorded the contra (I always find that the first recording just to the click is very un-musical and just a starting point).
I then found that my playing was a bit more towards a strong piano, so I scaled my midi shape down directly by like ~30%.

I've never actually posted any audio on this forum before, so you guys get to be the first to hear. I love IB/IW that much.

I put a tiny bit of compression on it just to bring everything together.

View attachment Mahler_II_Excerpt_IB_210802.mp3


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## CT

Here's what I managed with the modeled winds/brass I've been experimenting with. Dodgy performance for sure, and I think this library struggles with good trombone tone as I feel Infinite Brass does, but there is potential here. Also I've gotten pretty rusty with spatializing super dry stuff. I'm actually really pleased with how that crescendo works though.

If I find the motivation to improve the performance I'll put the MIDI here for any future tests.


----------



## Jorf88

Mike T said:


> Here's what I managed with the modeled winds/brass I've been experimenting with. Dodgy performance for sure, and I think this library struggles with good trombone tone as I feel Infinite Brass does, but there is potential here. Also I've gotten pretty rusty with spatializing super dry stuff. I'm actually really pleased with how that crescendo works though.
> 
> If I find the motivation to improve the performance I'll put the MIDI here for any future tests.
> 
> View attachment 54320


There are moments in there that do sound more clear... there's something weird going on at like 0:48 and more distinctly at the big crescendo at 0:58-1:03. Seems like slightly phase-y early reflections. Essentially like the horn bells are pointed into a giant copper tube.

Maybe I'll write out the rest of that passage with IB so you can hear the cresc. It'll have to wait until tomorrow, though.


----------



## CT

Yes, I think that's just a relatively poor quality IR. If I continue down this road I will need to invest in Altiverb or something.


----------



## Bollen

Mike T said:


> Here's what I managed with the modeled winds/brass I've been experimenting with. Dodgy performance for sure, and I think this library struggles with good trombone tone as I feel Infinite Brass does, but there is potential here. Also I've gotten pretty rusty with spatializing super dry stuff. I'm actually really pleased with how that crescendo works though.
> 
> If I find the motivation to improve the performance I'll put the MIDI here for any future tests.
> 
> View attachment 54320


Well... I don't have any of the Infinite library, but right off the bat I can tell you what you're doing wrong. First of all, all your curves are too similar. Winds (brass included) never swell together. It's not just because humans can't do it perfectly, but also because resistance changes enormously between instrument makes and mouthpieces and also hugely between notes and different registers i.e. you don't actually have the same dynamic range throughout the instrument. Also, your tuning is too perfect! If you notice in the video posted previously, when they go up they tend to be sharp and when they leap down they tend to play flat and they are all adjusting to each other at different rates. 

Also, you should get 7heaven, it makes life sOOoooo much easier!


----------



## CT

Bollen said:


> Well... I don't have any of the Infinite library, but right off the bat I can tell you what you're doing wrong. First of all, all your curves are too similar. Winds (brass included) never swell together. It's not just because humans can't do it perfectly, but also because resistance changes enormously between instrument makes and mouthpieces and also hugely between notes and different registers i.e. you don't actually have the same dynamic range throughout the instrument. Also, your tuning is too perfect! If you notice in the video posted previously, when they go up they tend to be sharp and when they leap down they tend to play flat and they are all adjusting to each other at different rates.
> 
> Also, you should get 7heaven, it makes life sOOoooo much easier!


This is not Infinite Brass. And Seventh Heaven is involved, after another IR for more body and ER which is not great.

You're right that the tuning and weight of different instruments is difficult to account for with such libraries where everything is a little too perfect. You can hear the same issues in the examples using Infinite Brass. I'm aware of all this, I played brass instruments for years, and this is why I'm skeptical of this type of library: at what point does the convenience of playability become outweighed by the amount of tinkering that has to happen to simulate these things which are captured naturally, to some extent, in real samples?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Jorf88 said:


> Alright, finally got around to writing up that Mahler bit.
> All MIDI parts recorded individually.
> I started with the contra, then top down in terms of voices, and then re-recorded the contra (I always find that the first recording just to the click is very un-musical and just a starting point).
> I then found that my playing was a bit more towards a strong piano, so I scaled my midi shape down directly by like ~30%.
> 
> I've never actually posted any audio on this forum before, so you guys get to be the first to hear. I love IB/IW that much.
> 
> I put a tiny bit of compression on it just to bring everything together.
> 
> View attachment Mahler_II_Excerpt_IB_210802.mp3




This is nice. Very natural and you've made it feel humanised. How've you managed it?


----------



## Tralen

Mike T said:


> This is not Infinite Brass. And Seventh Heaven is involved, after another IR for more body and ER which is not great.
> 
> You're right that the tuning and weight of different instruments is difficult to account for with such libraries where everything is a little too perfect. You can hear the same issues in the examples using Infinite Brass. I'm aware of all this, I played brass instruments for years, and this is why I'm skeptical of this type of library: at what point does the convenience of playability become outweighed by the amount of tinkering that has to happen to simulate these things which are captured naturally, to some extent, in real samples?


What happens when the performance you want is not captured in the real samples? What do you do then?


----------



## Jorf88

NeonMediaKJT said:


> This is nice. Very natural and you've made it feel humanised. How've you managed it?


I managed it easily because I didn't program it and then attempt to humanize it. It's literally me playing it. I hit record and played it in on my MIDI midi keyboard with modwheel for dynamics and a little bit of tweaking for vibrato speed/depth for different voices. 

I played it exactly how I would if I were holding the instrument (given what I know about brass technique from education and interaction with former colleagues/friends, I'm a string player). 

This is why Aaron asks us to "please play it in" in his technical reviews. It sounds that much better, and once you experience the control that you get by playing the instrument in yourself, it's tough to want to go back to drawing it in. 

In a case like this where you're playing from a score, understand where your notes sit in the chordal context. Thirds need to be either slightly sharp or flat (I didn't do this here, but I could technically go back through and record pitch wheel as a separate CC track to modulate the MIDI that I already have), and at least slightly stronger/weaker than the dynamics written on the page to elicit a certain musical effect. 

Some of my knowledge here also comes from having played Mahler symphonies. I haven't actually played this one, but I have an understanding of how to interpret some of the markings there. The martellato horn melody needs to be strong and detached, but this is still all written in piano dynamics, so you have to keep any accenting within a reasonable range. The Tenuto marking of the middle voices need to be elongated to connect the phrasing together, but keep in mind that nothing here is marked legato. There should always be some space between the notes. It's solemn and regal. Quiet but distinct and strong.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Jorf88 said:


> I managed it easily because I didn't program it and then attempt to humanize it. It's literally me playing it. I hit record and played it in on my MIDI midi keyboard with modwheel for dynamics and a little bit of tweaking for vibrato speed/depth for different voices.
> 
> I played it exactly how I would if I were holding the instrument (given what I know about brass technique from education and interaction with former colleagues/friends, I'm a string player).
> 
> This is why Aaron asks us to "please play it in" in his technical reviews. It sounds that much better, and once you experience the control that you get by playing the instrument in yourself, it's tough to want to go back to drawing it in.
> 
> In a case like this where you're playing from a score, understand where your notes sit in the chordal context. Thirds need to be either slightly sharp or flat (I didn't do this here, but I could technically go back through and record pitch wheel as a separate CC track to modulate the MIDI that I already have), and at least slightly stronger/weaker than the dynamics written on the page to elicit a certain musical effect.
> 
> Some of my knowledge here also comes from having played Mahler symphonies. I haven't actually played this one, but I have an understanding of how to interpret some of the markings there. The martellato horn melody needs to be strong and detached, but this is still all written in piano dynamics, so you have to keep any accenting within a reasonable range. The Tenuto marking of the middle voices need to be elongated to connect the phrasing together, but keep in mind that nothing here is marked legato. There should always be some space between the notes. It's solemn and regal. Quiet but distinct and strong.


I usually tend to avoid vibrato on trombones specifically. Did you use some there?


----------



## Trash Panda

Tralen said:


> What happens when the performance you want is not captured in the real samples? What do you do then?


Prior to discovering Infinite Brass/Winds, I bought more libraries, hoping they would capture that performance. The VIC way!  

Hmm, maybe that's the problem with the Infinite series. It's antithetical to the Sample Library Spendsortium's goals.


----------



## sound team apk

My own test for quiet trombones (plus some horns and bassoons) has been the chorale from the 4th movement of the Brahms C minor symphony. It provides similar challenges in terms of "quiet but distinct and strong" playing at low dynamics. This thread inspired me to update an old experiment to IW 2 (I didn't have IW at the time) and IB 1.6. Maybe my attempt will interest people. I hope I'm not embarrassing Aaron's libraries... 

It could be a lot better and have more variation in the attacks and swells (some bits are better humanized than others -- it sounds like I hard quantized the first chord wth???), but I already spent too much time obsessing about the attacks on the bassoons and the breath points -- and my desire to mess even more with the tempo track. I stopped when I felt convinced that the libraries actually provide control over the tenutos at this dynamic. (Jorf88's post wonderfully shows why this level of detail matters, though I'm just a pianist doing random stuff by ear.)

I wasn't emulating a particular recording. This is the default Mozarteum setup for all instruments. I did not touch a vibrato CC, so vibrato's default too. I added enough gain on the master to peak at -10 or so, but otherwise no processing at all. (It won't blow out your ears, but beware that I think the volume is higher than some of the prior examples.) 

View attachment Brahms - Chorale from 4th Movement of Symphony #1.mp3


For me, the "playability" isn't a "convenience." It's about more control over attack, legato speed, and vibrato (among other parameters) when I want that degree of performance detail.


----------



## Jorf88

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I usually tend to avoid vibrato on trombones specifically. Did you use some there?


Every single one of those instruments has a non-zero value for vibrato depth and speed. 
Not all of them actually have moving CC values for those, horn 1 and contrafag have moving amounts for sure, and I think I might have done it for tuba as well (it's very minute). As a string player, vibrato is very important to me... the effect you can have on "leaning into a note" by increasing your vibrato speed/depth just a tiny bit is absolutely astonishing.

It's that "leaning into notes" that you get with performable instruments, that you'll never have with other libraries.


----------



## Jorf88

sound team apk said:


> My own test for quiet trombones (plus some horns and bassoons) has been the chorale from the 4th movement of the Brahms C minor symphony. It provides similar challenges in terms of "quiet but distinct and strong" playing at low dynamics. This thread inspired me to update an old experiment to IW 2 (I didn't have IW at the time) and IB 1.6. Maybe my attempt will interest people. I hope I'm not embarrassing Aaron's libraries...
> 
> It could be a lot better and have more variation in the attacks and swells (some bits are better humanized than others -- it sounds like I hard quantized the first chord wth???), but I already spent too much time obsessing about the attacks on the bassoons and the breath points -- and my desire to mess even more with the tempo track. I stopped when I felt convinced that the libraries actually provide control over the tenutos at this dynamic. (Jorf88's post wonderfully shows why this level of detail matters, though I'm just a pianist doing random stuff by ear.)
> 
> I wasn't emulating a particular recording. This is the default Mozarteum setup for all instruments. I did not touch a vibrato CC, so vibrato's default too. I added enough gain on the master to peak at -10 or so, but otherwise no processing at all. (It won't blow out your ears, but beware that I think the volume is higher than some of the prior examples.)
> 
> View attachment Brahms - Chorale from 4th Movement of Symphony #1.mp3
> 
> 
> For me, the "playability" isn't a "convenience." It's about more control over attack, legato speed, and vibrato (among other parameters) when I want that degree of performance detail.


Yeah, avoiding that quantized kind of sound requires quite a lot of offset for note start locations. I realize your start might have been some kind of an error, since you seem surprised that it sounds that way.







There's what some of my MIDI looks like. Some of the note starts are dramatically early. Lower tone instruments need longer to fully project their notes, and AV has done a pretty great job of reproducing that in the way these instruments play. 

The other key detail that I didn't mention is that I turned the glide volumes all the way to zero for all of the bones. I might experiment with that, maybe it should have a tiny bit of slide volume, but definitely not full.


----------



## ricoderks

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Someone should legit create a library of hall sounds to decorate virtual orchestrations with 😂


Found it!









Scoring Noise Pro


Scoring Noise Pro is a creation of sixteen, 30-second noise floors. The noise floors are divided into categories based on distinguishing characteristics such as a “cough”, or a “chair squeak”, or any other occurrence made by an audience member or performer. Adding realism to your mix!



shopbeladmedia.com


----------



## Fibigero

I am wondering if I'm doing something completely wrong here... I used the 4 horns (each one played in seperately) for a 4-bar chord progression but it kind of sounds really synthy and bad compared to East West Hollywoods Brass when I played it with their solo horn patch. I have attached an audio file and the midi. Audio file starts with the chord progression played with EW Brass first and then two versions I made with Infinite Brass (second one with modwheel in a higher position). It really doesn't soudn the way I thought it would when having chords... am I missing something here?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

ricoderks said:


> Found it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scoring Noise Pro
> 
> 
> Scoring Noise Pro is a creation of sixteen, 30-second noise floors. The noise floors are divided into categories based on distinguishing characteristics such as a “cough”, or a “chair squeak”, or any other occurrence made by an audience member or performer. Adding realism to your mix!
> 
> 
> 
> shopbeladmedia.com


wtf!!!!

Why am i this excited about something like this 😂


----------



## Trash Panda

Fibigero said:


> I am wondering if I'm doing something completely wrong here... I used the 4 horns (each one played in seperately) for a 4-bar chord progression but it kind of sounds really synthy and bad compared to East West Hollywoods Brass when I played it with their solo horn patch. I have attached an audio file and the midi. Audio file starts with the chord progression played with EW Brass first and then two versions I made with Infinite Brass (second one with modwheel in a higher position). It really doesn't soudn the way I thought it would when having chords... am I missing something here?


Looking at the MIDI, you have a lot of flat CC1 data. While traditional sampled instruments have the natural volume swells and decrescendos built in, you have to supply these via CC1 or it can sound flat.

You will also need to leave space between the notes if you do not want them to be connected, as these libraries do not have release samples that normally occur to show a note's end.

I highly recommend downloading the available MIDI files from the demos posted on the AV site to get a good idea of how to program/play these as it is immensely helpful.

The MIDI you shared also has something very weird going on that is causing notes to play that aren't showing in the piano roll (at least in Reaper).


----------



## CT

Jorf88 said:


> I managed it easily because I didn't program it and then attempt to humanize it. It's literally me playing it. I hit record and played it in on my MIDI midi keyboard with modwheel for dynamics and a little bit of tweaking for vibrato speed/depth for different voices.
> 
> I played it exactly how I would if I were holding the instrument (given what I know about brass technique from education and interaction with former colleagues/friends, I'm a string player).
> 
> This is why Aaron asks us to "please play it in" in his technical reviews. It sounds that much better, and once you experience the control that you get by playing the instrument in yourself, it's tough to want to go back to drawing it in.
> 
> In a case like this where you're playing from a score, understand where your notes sit in the chordal context. Thirds need to be either slightly sharp or flat (I didn't do this here, but I could technically go back through and record pitch wheel as a separate CC track to modulate the MIDI that I already have), and at least slightly stronger/weaker than the dynamics written on the page to elicit a certain musical effect.
> 
> Some of my knowledge here also comes from having played Mahler symphonies. I haven't actually played this one, but I have an understanding of how to interpret some of the markings there. The martellato horn melody needs to be strong and detached, but this is still all written in piano dynamics, so you have to keep any accenting within a reasonable range. The Tenuto marking of the middle voices need to be elongated to connect the phrasing together, but keep in mind that nothing here is marked legato. There should always be some space between the notes. It's solemn and regal. Quiet but distinct and strong.


I think yours is the most convincingly phrased etc. of the IB examples, but there is something strange going on with some of the note attacks. That's controlled by velocity, yes?



Tralen said:


> What happens when the performance you want is not captured in the real samples? What do you do then?


I think people overestimate how rigid traditional samples are. Sure, some are extremely "performed" and hard to shape, but most can be very flexible if you handle them right.


----------



## Tralen

Mike T said:


> I think yours is the most convincingly phrased etc. of the IB examples, but there is something strange going on with some of the note attacks. That's controlled by velocity, yes?
> 
> 
> I think people overestimate how rigid traditional samples are. Sure, some are extremely "performed" and hard to shape, but most can be very flexible if you handle them right.


I agree, but currently, I'm playing mostly live, with an EWI, so I have no reliable way to handle different articulations. This is the performance I was talking about, something that needs to work right away, impromptu.

I also agree about the attacks, this is something I'm noticing and struggling with.


----------



## CT

Tralen said:


> I agree, but currently, I'm playing mostly live, with an EWI, so I have no reliable way to handle different articulations. This is the performance I was talking about, something that needs to work right away, impromptu.
> 
> I also agree about the attacks, this is something I'm noticing and struggling with.


Oh, well if you're relying on something like an EWI for live playing, you are definitely better off with a Samplemodeling type library, absolutely. I use a regular TEC breath controller for them, and sometimes with normal samples as well, though I think it can be a bit much with real dynamic layers/releases etc., and cleaner to just use a wheel or fader in those cases. 

I also have controls set up for vibrato, ways of switching between short note lengths for rapid changes of phrasing, pedals set to control release length, and on and on... this way, the "static" samples are always forced into some kind of motion appropriate for a given moment. There are still limits, but for me they're mitigated by the strengths of those libraries.


----------



## Fibigero

Trash Panda said:


> Looking at the MIDI, you have a lot of flat CC1 data. While traditional sampled instruments have the natural volume swells and decrescendos built in, you have to supply these via CC1 or it can sound flat.
> 
> You will also need to leave space between the notes if you do not want them to be connected, as these libraries do not have release samples that normally occur to show a note's end.
> 
> I highly recommend downloading the available MIDI files from the demos posted on the AV site to get a good idea of how to program/play these as it is immensely helpful.
> 
> The MIDI you shared also has something very weird going on that is causing notes to play that aren't showing in the piano roll (at least in Reaper).


would love to hear how it could potentially sound when done 'properly'. If anyone has the time to play in those four chords and share an mp3 here I'd be really thankful!


----------



## Bollen

Mike T said:


> at what point does the convenience of playability become outweighed by the amount of tinkering that has to happen to simulate these things which are captured naturally, to some extent, in real samples?


Well, as some one that has slowly been replacing my VSL collection with modelled instruments, I would say never. I find it ten times quicker to get the right performance out of modelled than samples, where you can spend an absurd amount of time trying to find the right patch! And certain things will just never sound right with samples... Sigh! If I only I could find a good replacement for the woodwinds...


----------



## Jorf88

Fibigero said:


> I am wondering if I'm doing something completely wrong here... I used the 4 horns (each one played in seperately) for a 4-bar chord progression but it kind of sounds really synthy and bad compared to East West Hollywoods Brass when I played it with their solo horn patch. I have attached an audio file and the midi. Audio file starts with the chord progression played with EW Brass first and then two versions I made with Infinite Brass (second one with modwheel in a higher position). It really doesn't soudn the way I thought it would when having chords... am I missing something here?


Alright, I did this in one quick take... so it might not be exactly as you intended.

I played your chords twice in a row. The first time is completely programmed by hand drawing in notes and dynamics CC, the second time is actually performed by me via midi keyboard.

View attachment IB_horn_demo_v1_210803.mp3


I wish I'd done the velocities a little cleaner on my self performance, but the final crescendo is WAY more authentic in the performed one.


----------



## CT

Bollen said:


> Well, as some one that has slowly been replacing my VSL collection with modelled instruments, I would say never. I find it ten times quicker to get the right performance out of modelled than samples, where you can spend an absurd amount of time trying to find the right patch! And certain things will just never sound right with samples... Sigh! If I only I could find a good replacement for the woodwinds...


Perhaps not in this thread as it's getting off topic, but do you have anything you could demonstrate which you feel is an acceptable chamber or symphonic virtual performance executed with modeled instruments in a reasonable amount of time? For all the talk that goes on about this subject, there are precious few audible results, or at least, good ones, so I'm always looking for more.


----------



## Trash Panda

Mike T said:


> Perhaps not in this thread as it's getting off topic, but do you have anything you could demonstrate which you feel is an acceptable chamber or symphonic virtual performance executed with modeled instruments in a reasonable amount of time? For all the talk that goes on about this subject, there are precious few audible results, or at least, good ones, so I'm always looking for more.


Are you really shitting all over the good examples the people in this thread have been posting?


----------



## CT

Trash Panda said:


> Are you really shitting all over the good examples the people in this thread have been posting?


I don't think Bollen was referring to Infinite Brass or Woodwinds. Take a breath.


----------



## Trash Panda

Mike T said:


> I don't think Bollen was referring to Infinite Brass or Woodwinds. Take a breath.


But I just sharpened my pitch fork and lit this torch…


----------



## aaronventure

Fibigero said:


> would love to hear how it could potentially sound when done 'properly'. If anyone has the time to play in those four chords and share an mp3 here I'd be really thankful!




All 4 horns:


----------



## sound team apk

Jorf88 said:


> I realize your start might have been some kind of an error, since you seem surprised that it sounds that way.


It was mock surprise that I would make -- and then leave in! -- such an obvious mistake.



Jorf88 said:


> There's what some of my MIDI looks like. Some of the note starts are dramatically early. Lower tone instruments need longer to fully project their notes, and AV has done a pretty great job of reproducing that in the way these instruments play.


I might have noticed if I'd referenced a recording instead of just reading the score. Now I'm looking forward to listening more carefully for some of these details. Thanks


----------



## CT

Trash Panda said:


> But I just sharpened my pitch fork and lit this torch…


Yes, and I genuinely consider the possibility of that reaction every time I think about ducking into this thread, since I know I will not be able to supply the effusive enthusiasm that is perhaps expected. Rest assured, I'll go back to following the progress of this type of VI from the sidelines, with no uncomfortably critical input. Great work, everyone!


----------



## Trash Panda

Mike T said:


> Yes, and I genuinely consider the possibility of that reaction every time I think about ducking into this thread, since I know I will not be able to supply the effusive enthusiasm that is perhaps expected. Rest assured, I'll go back to following the progress of this type of VI from the sidelines, with no uncomfortably critical input. Great work, everyone!


I'm just busting your balls.  

Stay awhile and listen!


----------



## Bollen

Mike T said:


> Perhaps not in this thread as it's getting off topic, but do you have anything you could demonstrate which you feel is an acceptable chamber or symphonic virtual performance executed with modeled instruments in a reasonable amount of time? For all the talk that goes on about this subject, there are precious few audible results, or at least, good ones, so I'm always looking for more.


Sure, send me the Mahler MIDI and we'll continue in PM...


----------



## shawnsingh

Mike T said:


> I think people overestimate how rigid traditional samples are. Sure, some are extremely "performed" and hard to shape, but most can be very flexible if you handle them right.





Mike T said:


> At what point does the convenience of playability become outweighed by the amount of tinkering that has to happen to simulate these things which are captured naturally, to some extent, in real samples?



I think there's room for both opinions because it depends on what kind of music the person makes as well as their thought process about "articulation" and "phrasing". Someone that uses strings only for hybrid epic ostinatos or for soaring melodic lines may not need so much modeled flexibility. On the other hand, someone that wants to recreate performances of traditional symphonic works will regularly encounter phrases where they wished it was possible to tweak a performance in ways that their articulations can't go.

There's also the question of whether the realism of the tone is more important or whether the richness of fully controllable performance is more important. I think samples have gone way too far on the "tone is more important" side of progress, and modelling has generally been on the exact opposite stance. But this is also a highly individual preference thing.

And when "samples can be very flexible if you handle them right" --> Is it possible that "handling them right" would add as much "tweaking" for an articulation library that you're saying the modelling approach has? I'd be interested to know if there's any specific examples (libraries and how to use them?) you have in mind where articulations can give you a lot of flexible mileage - there could be some interesting workflow and MIDI programming tricks we could learn from your perspective.

I'm thinking back to some sketches I've made in the past with articulation based libraries - the workflow of Hollywood Brass and Strings really made an imprression on me and was a much better workflow than just raw keyswitching: "velocity controlled marcato/accent with CC controlled sustain dynamics and vibrato xfade" --> this really is a very similar workflow to some modelled instruments already. For me, it's that workflow that is what makes Infinite great - how to sculpt attacks, sustains, releases, with a compact number of controls.



Mike T said:


> I'll go back to following the progress of this type of VI from the sidelines, with no uncomfortably critical input



I think it's healthy for all of us to hear opinions that seem hard to reconcile with our own understanding of the world. =)


----------



## Gingham Jones

Is anyone else having the sound panned to the right when you activate mono mode in IB 1.6?


----------



## Fibigero

aaronventure said:


> All 4 horns:



Thank you so much, and Jorf88, too! This helps me a lot! Now I'm very happy with how it sounds


----------



## CT

shawnsingh said:


> I think there's room for both opinions because it depends on what kind of music the person makes as well as their thought process about "articulation" and "phrasing". Someone that uses strings only for hybrid epic ostinatos or for soaring melodic lines may not need so much modeled flexibility. On the other hand, someone that wants to recreate performances of traditional symphonic works will regularly encounter phrases where they wished it was possible to tweak a performance in ways that their articulations can't go.
> 
> There's also the question of whether the realism of the tone is more important or whether the richness of fully controllable performance is more important. I think samples have gone way too far on the "tone is more important" side of progress, and modelling has generally been on the exact opposite stance. But this is also a highly individual preference thing.


Sure, this is always the question/distinction, which I'm frankly sick of, because any sensible person dealing in interesting music and using virtual instruments for a "final draft" product should not want to sacrifice one of these qualities for the other. I find it immensely frustrating that VI developers for the most part are too comfortable in their ways and are not doing more to bridge this gap. In the meantime, I've explored both sides and found that one is simply a more satisfying compromise than the other. It doesn't mean I don't pay attention to progress being made, if any, on the other end of things.



shawnsingh said:


> And when "samples can be very flexible if you handle them right" --> Is it possible that "handling them right" would add as much "tweaking" for an articulation library that you're saying the modelling approach has? I'd be interested to know if there's any specific examples (libraries and how to use them?) you have in mind where articulations can give you a lot of flexible mileage - there could be some interesting workflow and MIDI programming tricks we could learn from your perspective.
> 
> I'm thinking back to some sketches I've made in the past with articulation based libraries - the workflow of Hollywood Brass and Strings really made an imprression on me and was a much better workflow than just raw keyswitching: "velocity controlled marcato/accent with CC controlled sustain dynamics and vibrato xfade" --> this really is a very similar workflow to some modelled instruments already. For me, it's that workflow that is what makes Infinite great - how to sculpt attacks, sustains, releases, with a compact number of controls.


I don't find the amount of tweaking to be equivalent, no.

If I set up a typical sample-based VI to play as naturally as possible, as you describe Hollywood Strings and Brass being set up to allow maximum flexibility based on a few controls, the playing experience feels about equivalent to working with something modeled. The _responsiveness_ is of course not equivalent, but the gap is never as wide as I expect it to be. The typical shortcomings are in attack variations, note length, and vibrato adjustment, and the first two can be somewhat worked around. Otherwise, a good representative dynamic range which has been well-programmed (and which doesn't include a stretch up at the top which is best avoided but still sits there taking up CC real estate for some reason), and at least somewhat adjustable releases, are not impossible to find in samples. Coupled with smart management of articulations, whether live during performance via keyswitch, CC, whatever, or by retrospective assignment of articulation IDs, I can pretty easily bypass many of the perceived headaches of working with samples in the performance phase. It might sound clumsy in spots even once finalized, but that is something which ideally is eclipsed in the overall musical impression by good writing and a good lively sound, the latter of which, at least, is assured with good samples.

That's where the difference is, of course. A good lively sound is _not_ assured with modeled instruments, for more than one reason, and this is where all the additional tweaking comes in. It isn't just the trick of getting a good impression of space, or making adjustments to get a core timbre which isn't weird or unidentifiable as the instrument it's posing as, but also the more esoteric things mentioned in earlier posts: the breathing characteristics associated with particular ranges, at particular dynamics, which are not uniform between instruments and thus need to be approached with a lot of specific knowledge and technique if being simulated from scratch. Tuning imperfections as well, and not just randomized tuning imperfections, but imperfections that again are specific to instruments, ranges, dynamics, speed and direction of playing, to say nothing of harmonic context.

I sat in a brass section for years, but that doesn't make me any more eager to have to account for all of these largely unconscious-in-reality things with a bunch of different controllers while playing in a part with a fake trombone, or editing it after the fact. With samples, you at least have an honest (if the developer is honest) representation of some degree of these subtler bits of instrumental character and don't need to take on that dimension of tweaking as well to prevent a totally sterile and lifeless sound. You will actually hear how the person holding the tuba blows into the instrument, how the weight and tone of it changes across its register, and you'll hear something other than laser-focused pitch; granted, it's still not the naturally fluctuating/balancing pitch that happens between players in real time (though you can simulate this), but it's also not just a randomized effect: it represents the nature of the instrument, and the ability of the player, which I do not mind at all. Of course, with samples, you also have the less subtle things taken care of. A flute sounds like a flute, and it sounds like it's in a real space, moving real air.

I don't think it's impossible to build some of these finer variations into a modeled instrument. The developers of such VIs may have been taking all of this into consideration 10, 15 years ago. The question is, does it yield positive audible results? I largely don't think so. I've said this before, but speaking of timbre, it seems to me that modeled instruments have not made that much progress since around 2010 give or take. Meanwhile, samples are receiving better, more flexible programming all the time. That's just how I see it, of course.

You might also say... why worry about such minute things at all? Which is fair, maybe you don't mind the absence of some of that tonal realism. Why, then, worry about minute details of performance and phrasing realism instead? As you said, unfortunately you just have to pick one. For my part, I don't feel like the supposed performance benefits of modeling are pronounced enough to make it worth sacrificing the tonal stuff, and taking on the additional work to partially mitigate its absence sort of goes against the point of an easier, more musical, less tweaky experience, and in my estimation makes them ultimately _more_ tweaky than samples need be when everything is added together.

Yada yada yada. I hope nobody bothered to read all that.


----------



## Loïc D

I don’t think AV range requires more tweaking than “sample-based” libraries which also require CC/Vel massaging -plus sometimes trying articulations to find the best one is a dull painstaking job. 
And once you find one, you need to CC/Vel massage again because of discrepancies.

This was my life with Spitfire Studio range that I happily dropped for some more consistency with AV range.
I’m more productive this way and YES it takes less time to record/program/tweak 4 individual horns than pulling my hair with articulations on a A4 patch.

As for the tonal topic, it’s quite subjective but I’d happily drop a bit of “tonal realism” for a leaner experience with VI. And the directors / producers I work with value a planning under control and don’t care much about realism.

Disclaimer : I’m hobbyist and totally understand opposite opinions given one’s experience/workflow/pressure/music culture.


----------



## CT

Loïc D said:


> a leaner experience with VI


Ah, see that's the point of disagreement. Far more succinct than my pontification above: I wish I felt like working with modeled libraries _were_ a leaner experience, but I don't. It just shifts the weight somewhere else. I suspect most others in this thread identify with your concerns though.


----------



## DANIELE

I'm also an hobbyist and not a trained musician but, as I stated many times, I must say that using libraries with articulations literally kills my inner music ideas. I always found myself shaping the piece I was writing based on the libraries limitations, now I mainly think about the music and then I perform it, that's all.

I learned how to use these instruments (and I still have to learn) and now I'm able to write many things very fast. Between the two worlds there's an abyss for me, the modeled/playable method is a huge way faster than the other one.

I think that it is a matter of workflow and ear in the end. I study the best I can and from what I know and what I hear I'm very pleased with AV, SM and AM. I understand your point but I really cannot approach it anymore.

I found myself hating the articulation libraries, long before I was introduced to this kind of instruments. I remember I asked in this forum if someone knew some modeled libraries on the style of SM Brass (I only knew those modeled instruments at the time) because I felt bad with the libraries I had. I remember that a kind user pointed me to the AV IB anticipation thread, I felt in love with it almost instantly and I was an early adopter of the library, I have all the versions of it.

He was listening to the users (me included) and he took many suggestions and he tried to apply them. He promised to deliver a long time support and this is what he did. "I mean, how much developers are doing that!!" I told to myself, I was used to libraries with known issues that was never be addressed, to developers that prefer to sell always new product instead of updating the already existing ones etc...for me it was a lifechanger and today I still have the same opinion.

I know that this is not all on the point you talked about but for me is a very precious added value. I remember I expressed some concerns about the tone of some instruments in the earlier versions buy he solved all of them and he keeps doing it.

This is only my humble opinion.


----------



## CT

Yes, given how Infinite Brass and Woodwinds have been improved so far, I'm curious to see where things go in the future.


----------



## DANIELE

Mike T said:


> Yes, given how Infinite Brass and Woodwinds have been improved so far, I'm curious to see where things go in the future.


I actually pretty happy with the brass, I feel that IW need some more work (not so much though), especially with the flutes where I had some issues trying to perform some kind of runs but I know he is working on it and I'm also very pleased with IW anyway.

One point I forgot to mention that I like is that you have to learn to use these libraries as you do with real instruments (you obviously need a lot less time and work to accomplish it) and the more you learn to use them the more you are able to do a better job. This means that the time/work needed to get a good result is less and less every time you use them.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

As stated before in this thread: it comes down to personal preference and if you prioritize performance or tonality.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist (more so a few years ago) so key-switching libraries have always been less than great for me. Like hearing the switch from mp to mf when raising the velocity by just 1 click. Not having the right length short for X phrase, and having to render out a phrase at Y tempo to then time stretch it to fit the context better. Crossfading too fast and hearing the whole room/reverb disappear with the instruments. Having one legato transition being more prominent than all the others. Imperfections in the samples themselves that drive you mad because they keep repeating every single time you play that goddamn F, and in the end opting to render out the G instead and transposing it down then crossfading it into the performance to remove the artefact. I can go on... but I won't because it's bringing back some repressed memories.

But yes, these imperfections are real in a way that's hard to fake in simulated instruments and are things that might happen in a real performance, but it's just not worth it for most of us. I'm much more productive and inspired now than I've ever been before.


----------



## vicontrolu

You guys are talking like its one or the other. I´ve you´ve been composing for a while you already have those "tone" libraries.

AV is exceptional because of the awesome free constant updates, the instruments get better and better and nobody cant deny that. For me the tone difference is just too close to justify dealing with keyswitches again. 

Anoher thing is flexibility: i dont have to think about that mariachi trumpet library, or big band library or pop library. I can get a very decent sound out of AV everytime. So i just go for the trumpet patch, thats it.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

vicontrolu said:


> You guys are talking like its one or the other. I´ve you´ve been composing for a while you already have those "tone" libraries.
> 
> AV is exceptional because of the awesome free constant updates, the instruments get better and better and nobody cant deny that. For me the tone difference is just too close to justify dealing with keyswitches again.
> 
> Anoher thing is flexibility: i dont have to think about that mariachi trumpet library, or big band library or pop library. I can get a very decent sound out of AV everytime. So i just go for the trumpet patch, thats it.


But AV isn't real: the recordings aren't real, the performances aren't real, the reverb isn't real. For most, this approximation of the real thing is more than good enough, but it's still not "real" and I believe that's what's being discussed here. Which is also technically what a recording is: an approximation of what the instruments sound like. It seems as if the argument is that in these instruments that last 5% of realism is missing. And I believe that most people will never notice the difference. Personally, I often get more pointers about performance than tone. "Can they play louder?" "Could these notes be quicker?" "That transition sounded odd. Can it be removed?" "Could we have a more forceful entrance?" Most of these things can be fixed with different types of workarounds in most libraries, but not the way I like to work.

I combine both traditional libraries and modelled ones because I want the best of both worlds, but the traditional ones have, admittedly, been toned tone quite a bit.


----------



## Martin S

vicontrolu said:


> Anoher thing is flexibility: i dont have to think about that mariachi trumpet library, or big band library or pop library. I can get a very decent sound out of AV everytime. So i just go for the trumpet patch, thats it.


I’ve looked everywhere for a demo that showcase Infinite Brass in a big band setting, but can’t seem to find any. I’m really interested to know how IB sounds for jazz, especially Big Band. Do you have a demo you want to share, or maybe point me in the right direction? Thanks


----------



## vicontrolu

> 5% of realism is missing


I can deal with that, specially considering there are cases with traditional libraries where the phrase just doesnt work or the crossfade between dynamic layers is obvious. In this case it sounds bad..like 40% of realism is missing. But hey thats me



> especially Big Band. Do you have a demo you want to share, or maybe point me in the right direction?


Cant share much since i dont own the music i write but there have been numerous demos in this thread. I am sure there are some nice brassy big band demos here

EDIT: Also check the first James Bond demo on AV Infinite website


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> Yes, and I genuinely consider the possibility of that reaction every time I think about ducking into this thread, since I know I will not be able to supply the effusive enthusiasm that is perhaps expected. Rest assured, I'll go back to following the progress of this type of VI from the sidelines, with no uncomfortably critical input. Great work, everyone!


Probably the only time I'd disagree with you here (that the effusive enthusias is an expectation). I think this thread is pretty cool, because despite the fact that there's a lot of happy-clappy we-love-it stuff going on, it is one where at its core, there is a lot of measured critique. A lot of it from the biggest fans of the series.

And I think that more critique/criticism should be levelled here from people with different ears, because it'll ultimately ensure a balance. Finally, Aaron seems to be in a phase where he actually is able (and wiling) to update the libraries and improve them, and so long as he's making these improvements, people need to give him guidance. Who knows how long it'll last? I'm sure he - like many other sample developers - have other projects that they want to kick off.

So the last thing most of us serious Infinite Series lovers would want is for everyone to say "Yep, it is perfect" and for progress to stall. I can't actually speak for "most of us" but that's the feeling I get from this thread.


----------



## Tralen

I like music said:


> Probably the only time I'd disagree with you here (that the effusive enthusias is an expectation). I think this thread is pretty cool, because despite the fact that there's a lot of happy-clappy we-love-it stuff going on, it is one where at its core, there is a lot of measured critique. A lot of it from the biggest fans of the series.
> 
> And I think that more critique/criticism should be levelled here from people with different ears, because it'll ultimately ensure a balance. Finally, Aaron seems to be in a phase where he actually is able (and wiling) to update the libraries and improve them, and so long as he's making these improvements, people need to give him guidance. Who knows how long it'll last? I'm sure he - like many other sample developers - have other projects that they want to kick off.
> 
> So the last thing most of us serious Infinite Series lovers would want is for everyone to say "Yep, it is perfect" and for progress to stall. I can't actually speak for "most of us" but that's the feeling I get from this thread.


This thread has served to document the progress of the libraries and also for the users to present their experiences, frustrations and expectations. I wish every library had a thread like this. To give an example, recently there was the mono issue which Aaron promptly addressed in the last IB update.


----------



## decredis

I like music said:


> Probably the only time I'd disagree with you here (that the effusive enthusias is an expectation). I think this thread is pretty cool, because despite the fact that there's a lot of happy-clappy we-love-it stuff going on, it is one where at its core, there is a lot of measured critique. A lot of it from the biggest fans of the series.
> 
> And I think that more critique/criticism should be levelled here from people with different ears, because it'll ultimately ensure a balance. Finally, Aaron seems to be in a phase where he actually is able (and wiling) to update the libraries and improve them, and so long as he's making these improvements, people need to give him guidance. Who knows how long it'll last? I'm sure he - like many other sample developers - have other projects that they want to kick off.
> 
> So the last thing most of us serious Infinite Series lovers would want is for everyone to say "Yep, it is perfect" and for progress to stall. I can't actually speak for "most of us" but that's the feeling I get from this thread.


I'm only an occasional resident of this thread, but I have to agree... we're fans of these libraries but part of that fandom is the knowledge that we can be open about flaws, and the developer is incredibly cool about iteratively listening and improving (ad infinitum?), so the more critique the merrier.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I like music said:


> Probably the only time I'd disagree with you here (that the effusive enthusias is an expectation). I think this thread is pretty cool, because despite the fact that there's a lot of happy-clappy we-love-it stuff going on, it is one where at its core, there is a lot of measured critique. A lot of it from the biggest fans of the series.
> 
> And I think that more critique/criticism should be levelled here from people with different ears, because it'll ultimately ensure a balance. Finally, Aaron seems to be in a phase where he actually is able (and wiling) to update the libraries and improve them, and so long as he's making these improvements, people need to give him guidance. Who knows how long it'll last? I'm sure he - like many other sample developers - have other projects that they want to kick off.
> 
> So the last thing most of us serious Infinite Series lovers would want is for everyone to say "Yep, it is perfect" and for progress to stall. I can't actually speak for "most of us" but that's the feeling I get from this thread.


While I think this is a nice sentiment to aspire to, last time I had some honest feedback in this thread (months ago), it was met with a challenge to do a blind listening test to prove my *opinion* that tonally, IW and IB could be improved compared to other libraries. I also had some feedback on the usability (which to be fair is more of a philosophical debate and I don't expect AV to change his stance - though it would potentially help from a workflow perspective). If feedback from a paying customer is met with that type of resistance, then I fear this thread is simply an echo chamber for positive affirmations. Keep in mind, this was _before_ 1.6 was released and so clearly changed the tone of IB from 1.5.


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> Who knows how long it'll last? I'm sure he - like many other sample developers - have other projects that they want to kick off.


That's true. But as long as I can make it better, it'll keep getting better.



I like music said:


> for progress to stall


Even if everyone liked the instruments 100% the way they currently are (which is never going to happen no matter how good they become, and that's not my target either), the progress won't stall. 

I have grand plans for Infinite and while they might not be realized tomorrow or even next year, when it happens it'll be fucking legendary.


----------



## mutex

aaronventure said:


> ...fucking legendary.


This ^^


----------



## vicontrolu

The hell does legendary plans mean here? Oh boy..


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ALittleNightMusic said:


> While I think this is a nice sentiment to aspire to, last time I had some honest feedback in this thread (months ago), it was met with a challenge to do a blind listening test to prove my *opinion* that tonally, IW and IB could be improved compared to other libraries. I also had some feedback on the usability (which to be fair is more of a philosophical debate and I don't expect AV to change his stance - though it would potentially help from a workflow perspective). If feedback from a paying customer is met with that type of resistance, then I fear this thread is simply an echo chamber for positive affirmations. Keep in mind, this was _before_ 1.6 was released and so clearly changed the tone of IB from 1.5.


If I remember correctly, you said you didn't like the tone of IW and didn't find it to have many advantages except for playability. I agreed that - as most here do - IW could do with some tonal improvements. I also seem to remember you not really giving any constructive critisim only saying "it sounds synthy". Not sure if I would call that "feedback" when it is so very broad because I think Aaron is always trying to make the instruments sounds less synthy making that type of feedback somewhat moot. There's no problem stating it and adding your voice to the choir, but saying "it's synthy" as the criticisms. I even openly asked what you specifically found odd with the sounds of the instruments. For me, it's a couple of things, but a lack of hollowness is the main one. I understand it might be hard to put into words what you find wrong with the sound, and that's fine.

And I put forth the test to try your ears in a blind test because you picked IW as the worst in another, non-blind test. Then when it came to doing a blind test you apparently got offended and scared to voice your opinion here anymore. That was not my intention. I genuinely wanted to see if you could tell the instruments apart and how much of a difference there was in the tonal quality between them.


----------



## Bluemount Score

aaronventure said:


> That's true. But as long as I can make it better, it'll keep getting better.
> 
> 
> Even if everyone liked the instruments 100% the way they currently are (which is never going to happen no matter how good they become, and that's not my target either), the progress won't stall.
> 
> I have grand plans for Infinite and while they might not be realized tomorrow or even next year, when it happens it'll be fucking legendary.


Where can I buy your stock?


----------



## muziksculp

Bluemount Score said:


> Where can I buy your stock?


I'm ready to buy the company


----------



## CT

The advantage of developing a library like this is that iterative improvements and feedback-based changes are indeed relatively straightforward to make from a practical standpoint, since they will likely not involve additional recording sessions/editing and the time and money entailed therein. It's under the hood stuff, at least I'd assume it's mostly that. That certainly makes future prospects intriguing. 

"Fucking legendary" is big talk, and I think we've seen that big talk can get developers in more trouble than anything else, but we'll see!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

If you think of this thread of an echo chamber you should visit the performance samples thread 😂


----------



## Evans

NeonMediaKJT said:


> If you think of this thread of an echo chamber you should visit the performance samples thread 😂


NEWSFLASH! Excellent writer creates lovely sound from his own sample collection. More on this breaking story at the top of the evening news.


----------



## Tralen

Mike T said:


> The advantage of developing a library like this is that iterative improvements and feedback-based changes are indeed relatively straightforward to make from a practical standpoint, since they will likely not involve additional recording sessions/editing and the time and money entailed therein. It's under the hood stuff, at least I'd assume it's mostly that. That certainly makes future prospects intriguing.
> 
> "Fucking legendary" is big talk, and I think we've seen that big talk can get developers in more trouble than anything else, but we'll see!


Well, there have been additional recordings. Aaron has added new instruments frequently, and even a new room, which involve recording IRs. And there was another room being developed if I recall, someone could confirm that.


----------



## CT

Tralen said:


> Well, there have been additional recordings. Aaron has added new instruments frequently, and even a new room, which involve recording IRs. And there was another room being developed if I recall, someone could confirm that.


I see, though I imagine the amount of recording necessary even for new instruments is nowhere near what traditional libraries require. Makes the process more streamlined.



NeonMediaKJT said:


> If you think of this thread of an echo chamber you should visit the performance samples thread 😂





Evans said:


> NEWSFLASH! Excellent writer creates lovely sound from his own sample collection. More on this breaking story at the top of the evening news.


That's a bit silly and unnecessarily snarky, I think. There are zealots around every library, because that's how people are, but maybe the best way to paint this particular thread's ardent enthusiasm as balanced and considered is not to cast aspersions on the enthusiasms of others on the forum.


----------



## Evans

Mike T said:


> That's a bit silly and unnecessarily snarky, I think.


Thanks, I was going for "a bit silly." 50% success ain't bad.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Wasn’t at all meant to be snarky.


----------



## CT

The "cry laugh" emoji is redolent of snark for me, but fair enough.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Mike T said:


> The "cry laugh" emoji is redolent of snark for me, but fair enough.


Hmm I usually read it as friendly. We read it differently no worries.


----------



## CT

What'd you mean by the comment then, if not snark? Just wondering.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Mike T said:


> What'd you mean by the comment then, if not snark? Just wondering.


Basically to check the performance samples thread for a full dose of sample library drooling and nothing else.


----------



## CT

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Basically to check the performance samples thread for a full dose of sample library drooling and nothing else.


Right, that's more or less how I interpreted it though, and whether intended as snark or not, I think that's a somewhat unfair categorization, as unfair as I imagine some found my categorization of this thread as the same.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Mike T said:


> Right, that's more or less how I interpreted it though, and whether intended as snark or not, I think that's a somewhat unfair categorization, as unfair as I imagine some found my categorization of this thread as the same.


Ok. Well, let’s just leave it at that then.


----------



## CT

I'd prefer to poke and prod you a little more, but I'll resist for the benefit of the forum.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Yes, please don’t.


----------



## CT

Only because you asked nicely.


----------



## FireGS

HEY! I heard there was pokin' and prodin' goin' on in here! Am I too late?


----------



## CT

Get your mind out of the gutter.


----------



## FireGS

Mike T said:


> Get your mind out of the gutter.


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> Here's what I managed with the modeled winds/brass I've been experimenting with. Dodgy performance for sure, and I think this library struggles with good trombone tone as I feel Infinite Brass does, but there is potential here. Also I've gotten pretty rusty with spatializing super dry stuff. I'm actually really pleased with how that crescendo works though.
> 
> If I find the motivation to improve the performance I'll put the MIDI here for any future tests.


You removed it?


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> You removed it?


Ah sorry, I usually remove stuff soon anyway, but that one especially was crap.


----------



## mutex

So now that I own IB I wonder what's the best way to work with it when you don't have a breath controller?

For example, I found that when playing in, I don't always hit the correct key velocity to produce the attack velocity I want, which I guess would be straight forward with a breath controller.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

mutex said:


> So now that I own IB I wonder what's the best way to work with it when you don't have a breath controller?
> 
> For example, I found that when playing in, I don't always hit the correct key velocity to produce the attack velocity I want, which I guess would be straight forward with a breath controller.


You would have the exact same problem if you use the same keyboard because even with a breath controller you still control the attack with velocity. That is something you would have to go back and edit in post if you can't play it perfectly from the get-go.


----------



## Saxer

It‘s practise or luck or editing or a combination of all that to get the performance right. I use a breath controller most of the time, have to edit some velocity data. For longer notes I use the mod wheel. Both works. Mimicking instruments is a bit like talking with a foreign accent or imitating a voice. Takes some time to get convincing results. Most important is to have a clear vision of the result. The rest is try and error, recognizing what works and routine.


----------



## aaronventure

mutex said:


> So now that I own IB I wonder what's the best way to work with it when you don't have a breath controller?
> 
> For example, I found that when playing in, I don't always hit the correct key velocity to produce the attack velocity I want, which I guess would be straight forward with a breath controller.


Even if you intend to sequence Infinite, I still recommend at least playing the notes in. Don't worry about hitting the correct notes either, worry just about the timing and note duration, as manually randomizing and adjusting these two parameters is actually the most time-consuming aspect of the sequencing workflow. 

Then you just pop into the MIDI editor, put correct the note pitches and adjust the velocity and CC1 with a pen tool.

It's really fast.


----------



## Luka

What is the hand-in-the-air controller Aaron uses in his walkthroughs?


----------



## Martin S

Luka said:


> What is the hand-in-the-air controller Aaron uses in his walkthroughs?


Leap Motion controller









Tracking | Leap Motion Controller | Ultraleap


Small. Fast. Accurate. The LeapMotion Controller is an optical hand tracking module that captures the movements of your hands with unparalleled accuracy.




www.ultraleap.com


----------



## Martin S

Alternatively, you might want to try Musikraken:



MusiKraken


----------



## Luka

Thanks @Martin S !


----------



## sctaylorcan

Martin S said:


> Leap Motion controller
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tracking | Leap Motion Controller | Ultraleap
> 
> 
> Small. Fast. Accurate. The LeapMotion Controller is an optical hand tracking module that captures the movements of your hands with unparalleled accuracy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ultraleap.com


I actually wrote my own Windows software for Leap Motion 100% *because *I bought AV's instruments and wanted to play them as expressively as possible. It actually turned out quite well so I made it available free at www.midipaw.com if any Windows/LeapMotion folks cared to try.

The experience of playing this way with Aaron's libraries is so natural and immersive to me, that now I often spend what little time I find for music simply playing the trumpet or whatever, and get nothing recorded  They are remarkable libraries to simply *play* !


----------



## Luka

sctaylorcan said:


> I actually wrote my own Windows software for Leap Motion 100% *because *I bought AV's instruments and wanted to play them as expressively as possible. It actually turned out quite well so I made it available free at www.midipaw.com if any Windows/LeapMotion folks cared to try.
> 
> The experience of playing this way with Aaron's libraries is so natural and immersive to me, that now I often spend what little time I find for music simply playing the trumpet or whatever, and get nothing recorded  They are remarkable libraries to simply *play* !


Do you think there will be a possibility to bring it to Mac one day?


----------



## muziksculp

@sctaylorcan ,

I love using your MidiPaw Software with Leap-Motion. Amazing stuff.  

Q. What did the latest update of MidiPaw add in terms of features. Is there a documentation of that ? 

Thanks.


----------



## sctaylorcan

Luka said:


> Do you think there will be a possibility to bring it to Mac one day?


A possibility but a good ways off -- the Leap Motion SDK for Mac is behind a few versions (though I saw a guy from Leap Motion on VIControl recently suggesting that would change) *and* I'd have to buy a Mac and learn how  But hey - an excuse to buy some more technology doesn't sound bad!

OH - and the software Mac folks use with Leap is GECO. Very widely used as far as I can tell!

Edit2: This https://mimugloves.com/glover/ was recently released and looks pretty interesting too!


----------



## sctaylorcan

muziksculp said:


> @sctaylorcan ,
> 
> I love using your MidiPaw Software with Leap-Motion. Amazing stuff.
> 
> Q. What did the latest update of MidiPaw add in terms of features. Is there a documentation of that ?
> 
> Thanks.


Awesome, thx!! Yes, there's a version history link on the site. The last update was just a bug fix where the input and output midi channel were misaligned in certain modes, ooops !


----------



## Gingham Jones

Sooo... Anyone having an issue with IB 1.6 instruments panning to the right in mono mode?


----------



## Tralen

Gingham Jones said:


> Sooo... Anyone having an issue with IB 1.6 instruments panning to the right in mono mode?


All instruments?

I did a quick test and can't confirm on Reaper 6.27, everything is working.

Are you using a DAW that distinguishes between Mono and Stereo tracks? If you are sending a Mono signal to a Stereo track, it will probably shift to one side.


----------



## Gingham Jones

Tralen said:


> All instruments?
> 
> I did a quick test and can't confirm on Reaper 6.27, everything is working.
> 
> Are you using a DAW that distinguishes between Mono and Stereo tracks? If you are sending a Mono signal to a Stereo track, it will probably shift to one side.


Ah, it turns out it happened on a project that was using the old 1.5 horns. I reloaded the instruments and it works now. Strange, but I'll take it!


----------



## DANIELE

Gingham Jones said:


> Ah, it turns out it happened on a project that was using the old 1.5 horns. I reloaded the instruments and it works now. Strange, but I'll take it!


On every update Aaron advice to reload every instrument from scratch to avoid issues.


----------



## PerryD

I was testing a new set of (real) congas and I threw in some IB and IWW. Bad arrangement & mix but I thought it was interesting. I bounced to audio as I went, so not much room to fix much.


----------



## Martin S

PerryD said:


> I was testing a new set of (real) congas and I threw in some IB and IWW. Bad arrangement & mix but I thought it was interesting. I bounced to audio as I went, so not much room to fix much.


I like the brass; would probably suit big band stuff better than I expected  The saxes I’m not so sure about, though. But for quick sketching w/o keyswitching they could probably do..


----------



## PerryD

Martin S said:


> I like the brass; would probably suit big band stuff better than I expected  The saxes I’m not so sure about, though. But for quick sketching w/o keyswitching they could probably do..


Yeah, the saxes still need some work I think. Aaron seems to make nice strides with each update though...


----------



## Denkii

@Soundbed can we expect some nice little soundbed youtube features from you? I would be so interested in your thoughts.


----------



## Soundbed

Denkii said:


> @Soundbed can we expect some nice little soundbed youtube features from you? I would be so interested in your thoughts.


Yes but not sure when. I've got a few extra things on my plate currently. And we will be on family vaca next week. What would you like to see, anything specific?


----------



## Denkii

Nothing specific for me personally, I'd just enjoy watching you playing around with it. Maybe some comparisons to other libraries (conventional, not modeled).
But others can probably state some things they would particularly be interested in.


----------



## Tralen

Denkii said:


> Nothing specific for me personally, I'd just enjoy watching you playing around with it. Maybe some comparisons to other libraries (conventional, not modeled).
> But others can probably state some things they would particularly be interested in.


@Soundbed @doctoremmet 

Saxophones!


----------



## Soundbed

Tralen said:


> @Soundbed @doctoremmet
> 
> Saxophones!


wow even that list looks ambitious.

i haven't even loaded any of these yet.


----------



## Jorf88

Today, I spent a few hours playing with a few other different brass libraries. I won't name them, I don't want to sit here and throw shade. But... the crossfade between dynamic layers.

It was atrocious. AVIB is so smooth across different dynamic levels and the tone that's produced (this was mostly assessed with horns and trumpets) is mostly even, without including a lot of brassiness (unless you deliberately include flutter or growl). The other libraries had _very _obvious shift points between dynamic layers. I'd be in the middle of a crescendo and suddenly hit the brassy braam, when I was just trying to increase volume... because that's the last dynamic layer.

I've never felt like such a shill, but AVIB is just... intuitive. The bright brassy buzz doesn't come into the AVIB horns until like ~110 CC1, and in these other libraries it would pop in way down at 80-90, way down at the beginning of their last dynamic layer. It's disruptive to be in the middle of a crescendo and then go full brass when you're just trying to get some more emphasis and volume.

I dunno what I intended with this post... probably mostly just appreciation for this wonderful library.


I'm contemplating either doing a mockup of the John Williams Superman theme, or Holst's Jupiter from the planets. Either is going to be a lot of work, but would showcase these libraries beautifully.


----------



## shawnsingh

Jorf88 said:


> John Williams Superman theme


Interesting you bring this up, I vaguely remember thinking that theme used C trumpets, not B flat. I used to be better at hearing the difference, 10 years ago it was obvious to me when I first got VSL special edition that had C trumpets instead of B flat, but now after living with virtual orchestras so much I'm not so sure I could hear the difference anymore. I wonder if C trumpets could be something future for infinite brass.


----------



## DANIELE

Jorf88 said:


> Today, I spent a few hours playing with a few other different brass libraries. I won't name them, I don't want to sit here and throw shade. But... the crossfade between dynamic layers.
> 
> It was atrocious. AVIB is so smooth across different dynamic levels and the tone that's produced (this was mostly assessed with horns and trumpets) is mostly even, without including a lot of brassiness (unless you deliberately include flutter or growl). The other libraries had _very _obvious shift points between dynamic layers. I'd be in the middle of a crescendo and suddenly hit the brassy braam, when I was just trying to increase volume... because that's the last dynamic layer.
> 
> I've never felt like such a shill, but AVIB is just... intuitive. The bright brassy buzz doesn't come into the AVIB horns until like ~110 CC1, and in these other libraries it would pop in way down at 80-90, way down at the beginning of their last dynamic layer. It's disruptive to be in the middle of a crescendo and then go full brass when you're just trying to get some more emphasis and volume.
> 
> I dunno what I intended with this post... probably mostly just appreciation for this wonderful library.
> 
> 
> I'm contemplating either doing a mockup of the John Williams Superman theme, or Holst's Jupiter from the planets. Either is going to be a lot of work, but would showcase these libraries beautifully.


You should mockup Holst's Mars, but wait for IS to come out, you know, for the "Col Legno".


----------



## OstrovskyiComposer

Jorf88 said:


> Сегодня я провел несколько часов, играя с несколькими другими медными библиотеками. Я не буду их называть, не хочу сидеть здесь и бросать тень. Но ... перекрестное затухание между динамическими слоями.
> 
> Это было ужасно. AVIB настолько плавный на разных динамических уровнях, и создаваемый тон (это в основном оценивался с помощью валторн и труб) в основном ровный, без большого количества медных нот (если вы намеренно не включаете флаттер или рычание). В других библиотеках были _очень _ очевидные точки сдвига между динамическими слоями. Я был в середине крещендо и внезапно ударил по медному брэму, когда я просто пытался увеличить громкость ... потому что это последний динамический слой.
> 
> Я никогда не чувствовал себя таким задиристым, но AVIB просто ... интуитивно понятен. Яркое медное гудение появляется в рожках AVIB примерно до ~ 110 CC1, а в этих других библиотеках оно выскакивает вниз на 80-90, намного ниже в начале их последнего динамического слоя. Быть в середине крещендо, а затем идти на полную медь, когда вы просто пытаетесь получить больше акцента и объема, разрушительно.
> 
> Я не знаю, что я имел в виду в этом посте ... вероятно, в основном просто благодарность за эту замечательную библиотеку.
> 
> 
> Я подумываю сделать макет на тему Супермена Джона Уильямса или Юпитер Холста с планет. Любой из них потребует много работы, но позволит красиво продемонстрировать эти библиотеки.


This is my example of sounding IB in John Williams style, re-thinking of the "old-school" approach.
This is my score for "Stargirl Scoring Competition".
Breath controller was used.


----------



## Jorf88

shawnsingh said:


> Interesting you bring this up, I vaguely remember thinking that theme used C trumpets, not B flat. I used to be better at hearing the difference, 10 years ago it was obvious to me when I first got VSL special edition that had C trumpets instead of B flat, but now after living with virtual orchestras so much I'm not so sure I could hear the difference anymore. I wonder if C trumpets could be something future for infinite brass.


The part is almost certainly for trumpet in C. The orchestral standard is tpt in C, any other variety is by request. I'm at least fairly certain that the trumpets in IB are in C.
Realistically, we can EQ them to sound however we'd like, in terms of brightness.


DANIELE said:


> You should mockup Holst's Mars, but wait for IS to come out, you know, for the "Col Legno".


I thought about it, but Jupiter has always been my favorite movement. I also feel like it's a better showcase of the library because it's so musical that there is nowhere to hide.


Edit: Leaving this here for clarity, but confirmed below, I'm wrong and it is actually 4 Bb trumpets in Williams' Superman march.


----------



## shawnsingh

Jorf88 said:


> I'm at least fairly certain that the trumpets in IB are in C.


@aaronventure can you please confirm? Apparently I've lost my knack for hearing the subtle difference over the years. I suppose that's the difference between living and breathing in a real orchestra for many years, versus being away from it, with only virtual instruments for 10 more years...


----------



## duringtheafter

shawnsingh said:


> Interesting you bring this up, I vaguely remember thinking that theme used C trumpets, not B flat. I used to be better at hearing the difference, 10 years ago it was obvious to me when I first got VSL special edition that had C trumpets instead of B flat, but now after living with virtual orchestras so much I'm not so sure I could hear the difference anymore. I wonder if C trumpets could be something future for infinite brass.


Can confirm the original-original Superman score is written for Bb trumpet.


----------



## shawnsingh

duringtheafter said:


> Can confirm the original-original Superman score is written for Bb trumpet.


My sense of reality is being destroyed...


----------



## Jorf88

duringtheafter said:


> Can confirm the original-original Superman score is written for Bb trumpet.


I just got the score... I'll be damned. 4 trumpets in Bb.
My favorite recording of its performance is the one from the BBC proms, and I really didn't think those trumpets were Bb, but if that's what's in the score, they probably are.


----------



## Woodie1972

John Williams does change between C and Bb Trumpets in his scores to enhance the character he has in mind. F.e. I have the score of 'Hymne to the fallen' from Saving Private Ryan and there he indicates C Trumpets for the opening and Bb for the brass choral.


----------



## dhmusic

Trash Panda said:


> a super early sketch of an FF7 Remake song


That was sounding pretty good where is the rest lol


----------



## PerryD

I have been posting mostly fff tests here. This is something a bit on the softer side. IB Horns, Contra Tuba and Trombones. S&ES plus VSL SSP is a nice combination.


----------



## morganwable

Does anyone have any cues or mockups they originally bounced out using an old version of IB that they then went in and replaced with the new update? I was amazed by the tone and realism back then, but now that they sound even better, I'm noticing flaws I hadn't picked up on previously, in old demos. I'd like to hear some more direct comparisons if anyone has em.

Either way... I have a pretty big freelance gig coming up (animation, not music) and I might be able to afford IB sooner rather than later. I was originally going to wait until IS comes out to get the whole bundle, but I've been itching to try out the workflow and I keep having brass-centric ideas that I know wouldn't be possible with a conventional library. So...


----------



## oceanic714

morganwable said:


> Does anyone have any cues or mockups they originally bounced out using an old version of IB that they then went in and replaced with the new update? I was amazed by the tone and realism back then, but now that they sound even better, I'm noticing flaws I hadn't picked up on previously, in old demos. I'd like to hear some more direct comparisons if anyone has em.
> 
> Either way... I have a pretty big freelance gig coming up (animation, not music) and I might be able to afford IB sooner rather than later. I was originally going to wait until IS comes out to get the whole bundle, but I've been itching to try out the workflow and I keep having brass-centric ideas that I know wouldn't be possible with a conventional library. So...


Congrats on the gig!

I haven't listened to many direct comparisons of the old library vs. the update, but I new immediately that the new brass feels more warm and life-like (there may be some minor vibrato baked in). Whatever the team at Aaron Venture did, hats off to them.


----------



## oceanic714

Here's a full-length track!



Feeling good about the blending of different libraries. I really tried to perform each instrument as if I was actually playing, it helped make the six laborious hours of composing and recording enjoyable. The mixing could still use work, any tips are very appreciated.

Libraries:
Infinite Brass
Infinite Woodwinds
Cinematic Studio Strings
Adventure Strings
True Strike Percussion
Felt Piano & Music Box from Spitfire Labs
Celtic Harp & Tin Whistle from Lumina


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

oceanic714 said:


> Here's a full-length track!
> 
> 
> 
> Feeling good about the blending of different libraries. I really tried to perform each instrument as if I was actually playing, it helped make the six laborious hours of recording enjoyable. The mixing could still use work, any tips are very appreciated.
> 
> Libraries:
> Infinite Brass
> Infinite Woodwinds
> Cinematic Studio Strings
> Adventure Strings
> True Strike Percussion
> Felt Piano & Music Box from Spitfire Labs



Amazing composition, dude!


----------



## oceanic714

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Amazing composition, dude!


Thank you! The whole thing is based off of a melody that my girlfriend wrote on piano (she's a percussionist).

I tried to draw a little inspiration from John Powell here and there, particularly his use of pizzicato strings, passing of melody to different instruments, and frequent key changes. He is by far my favorite composer for film.


----------



## Fibigero

Lately my DAW is showing me some spikes (CPU?) when just playing something with IB. Here a screen recording of it. What could cause this? There are no effects on the channel only a simple reverb but it happens even with the reverb deactivated


View attachment IB-spike.mp4


----------



## Loïc D

Here's a new version of my Sheherazade mockup.


For the brass, I've switched from JXL to Infinite Brass 1.6.
Rest of libraries are :
- Infinite Woodwinds 2.0
- Spitfire Chamber Strings
- Spitfire Percussions

Don't get my wrong, I love JXL Brass. Though, I feel IB more fit for classical mockup.

Any comments welcome.


----------



## I like music

This is 


oceanic714 said:


> Here's a full-length track!
> 
> 
> 
> Feeling good about the blending of different libraries. I really tried to perform each instrument as if I was actually playing, it helped make the six laborious hours of composing and recording enjoyable. The mixing could still use work, any tips are very appreciated.
> 
> Libraries:
> Infinite Brass
> Infinite Woodwinds
> Cinematic Studio Strings
> Adventure Strings
> True Strike Percussion
> Felt Piano & Music Box from Spitfire Labs
> Celtic Harp & Tin Whistle from Lumina



This is just excellent. Had me smiling all the way! Fantastic!


----------



## Ivan M.

Hi, I have a problem, when CC sustain is activated (to play chords), then velocity control is lost.
I need it when playing staccato chords. Without velocity control, I'm forced to split chords into individual tracks+instruments, but I would prefer not to.
Applies to the latest brass 1.6 and woodwinds 2.0.
@aaronventure
edit:attached midi


----------



## Zanshin

Ivan M. said:


> Hi, I have a problem, when CC sustain is activated (to play chords), then velocity control is lost.
> I need it when playing staccato chords. Without velocity control, I'm forced to split chords into individual tracks+instruments, but I would prefer not to.
> Applies to the latest brass 1.6 and woodwinds 2.0.
> @aaronventure
> edit:attached midi


I noticed this too. I hadn't used a sustain pedal with Infinite before and thought perhaps it was working as intended....


----------



## I like music

Don't forget about Infinite Strings.


----------



## Denkii

#NeverForget


----------



## I like music

Can we start a chant?

Infinite strings
Infinite strings
Infinite strings...

I need people to join in. +1 be damned.


----------



## gedlig

Infinite Strings peepoRiot


----------



## Denkii

Not gonna lie and this is a bit dark but I don't mean harm to anyone with it.
Sometimes I catch myself thinking: as far as I know this is a single dude working on this stuff...what happens if something happens to him? Please god let nothing happen to him!

I know...it's very self centered and opportunistic but that's just what the voices in my head tell me sometimes.


----------



## Jamus

Denkii said:


> Not gonna lie and this is a bit dark but I don't mean harm to anyone with it.
> Sometimes I catch myself thinking: as far as I know this is a single dude working on this stuff...what happens if something happens to him? Please god let nothing happen to him!
> 
> I know...it's very self centered and opportunistic but that's just what the voices in my head tell me sometimes.


I had the same thought once. So much dependence on Aaron Venture 😂

No pressure bro 🤷‍♂️


----------



## I like music

Is it out yet?


----------



## decredis

Denkii said:


> Not gonna lie and this is a bit dark but I don't mean harm to anyone with it.
> Sometimes I catch myself thinking: as far as I know this is a single dude working on this stuff...what happens if something happens to him? Please god let nothing happen to him!
> 
> I know...it's very self centered and opportunistic but that's just what the voices in my head tell me sometimes.


It's a tough trade-off. We could (as the committee of customers in charge of his life decisions) insist that he take on an apprentice to initiate into the Mysteries of the Infinite, to guard against that Dark Day.

But then Infinite Strings will take twice as long.


----------



## Denkii

decredis said:


> It's a tough trade-off. We could (as the committee of customers in charge of his life decisions) insist that he take on an apprentice to initiate into the Mysteries of the Infinite, to guard against that Dark Day.
> 
> But then Infinite Strings will take twice as long.


We could also crowdfund him to join forces with EvilDragon. Best of both worlds.


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> We could also crowdfund him to join forces with EvilDragon. Best of both worlds.


As long as they sign a charter stipulating they’ll never share a car or plane. Just to be sure.


----------



## Denkii

Oh no. Now I am thinking about the same thing but with ED.
Soooo how far exactly has cloning gotten recently?


----------



## Bollen

I like music said:


> Can we start a chant?
> 
> Infinite strings
> Infinite strings
> Infinite strings...
> 
> I need people to join in. +1 be damned.


----------



## doctoremmet

Hahaha. This made my day!


----------



## DANIELE

HW Choirs?


----------



## Bollen

DANIELE said:


> HW Choirs?


SC...


----------



## obey

The new Infinite Choirs beta sounds killer, Bollen!


----------



## I like music

That is just amazing @Bollen 
Nearly lost my breakfast


----------



## ansthenia

I'm suing Aaron, these are totally finite


----------



## Nando Florestan

Here are a couple of tracks, all woodwinds and brass are Infinite. Criticism welcome.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I cannot seem to get enough of Infinite Brass. After the past few updates, it has effectively rendered the rest of my brass libraries useless. I cannot recall using any other brass library for any of the 30+ pieces I have composed over the past five months. Here is a recent piece of mine - of course, all brass is Infinite Brass. I was able to get quite a bombastic sound out of it for the opening, and it suited the middle fanfare quite nicely.


----------



## Trash Panda

Nando Florestan said:


> Here are a couple of tracks, all woodwinds and brass are Infinite. Criticism welcome.


Fungal Exploring is really giving me some Final Fantasy crossed with Fantasia vibes. Very nice! Only critique would be to put the bubble popping sounds further back in the mix so they are more subtle. They’re pretty distracting from what is otherwise a really solid piece.

Fungal Rumble sounds like it belongs in an old school Disney or Looney Tunes TV cartoon. Love it!


----------



## Trash Panda

Ethan Toavs said:


> I cannot seem to get enough of Infinite Brass. After the past few updates, it has effectively rendered the rest of my brass libraries useless. I cannot recall using any other brass library for any of the 30+ pieces I have composed over the past five months. Here is a recent piece of mine - of course, all brass is Infinite Brass. I was able to get quite a bombastic sound out of it for the opening, and it suited the middle fanfare quite nicely.


Awesome piece. Sounds like a great fanfare for a fantasy RPG.


----------



## DANIELE

Ethan Toavs said:


> I cannot seem to get enough of Infinite Brass. After the past few updates, it has effectively rendered the rest of my brass libraries useless. I cannot recall using any other brass library for any of the 30+ pieces I have composed over the past five months. Here is a recent piece of mine - of course, all brass is Infinite Brass. I was able to get quite a bombastic sound out of it for the opening, and it suited the middle fanfare quite nicely.


Great piece, what are you using for the choirs?


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Trash Panda said:


> Awesome piece. Sounds like a great fanfare for a fantasy RPG.


Thank you!


----------



## Ethan Toavs

DANIELE said:


> Great piece, what are you using for the choirs?


The choir library used is Oceania II by Performance Samples. https://www.performancesamples.com/oceaniaii/


----------



## Jackdnp121

Ethan Toavs said:


> I cannot seem to get enough of Infinite Brass. After the past few updates, it has effectively rendered the rest of my brass libraries useless. I cannot recall using any other brass library for any of the 30+ pieces I have composed over the past five months. Here is a recent piece of mine - of course, all brass is Infinite Brass. I was able to get quite a bombastic sound out of it for the opening, and it suited the middle fanfare quite nicely.


Niceeeeee…..


----------



## I like music

Very good pieces @Nando Florestan and @Ethan Toavs !!!

However, I don't hear any Infinite Strings? Why is that?


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I like music said:


> Very good pieces @Nando Florestan and @Ethan Toavs !!!
> 
> However, I don't hear any Infinite Strings? Why is that?


+1 Month is the reason why you did not hear any Infinite Strings.


----------



## Denkii

Ethan Toavs said:


> +1 Month is the reason why you did not hear any Infinite Strings.


Et tu, Brute?


----------



## Akora

I'm currently working on a mockup of "Lighting of the Beacons" from Lord of the Rings and my goal is to make it using only 4 libraries in total - the full Infinite series, and CinePerc. Here is a little part from the build up section, where only Infinite Brass is playing. I wanted to isolate the brass so if anyone can give some feedback on how to make it sound better or closer to the original, it would be great! I'm not good at mixing, compression, eq, etc...
Is it too muddy or too synthy?

*It starts at a loud point, so watch your ears!*


----------



## Batrawi

Aaron has not been showing for a while. I'll take this as a good indication that strings are on track for release this year. At least this is what it's still mentioned on the website:


----------



## Bollen

Nando Florestan said:


> Here are a couple of tracks, all woodwinds and brass are Infinite. Criticism welcome.


That's some really lovely stuff there Nando!


----------



## DANIELE

Ethan Toavs said:


> The choir library used is Oceania II by Performance Samples. https://www.performancesamples.com/oceaniaii/


Ah yeah, I have it.

Great work again.


----------



## ansthenia

The manual for Infinite brass states you should set a -30ms delay for proper rhythmic alignment for grid-aligned notes, but this doesn't seem accurate to me? The legatos have way more delay, seems more appropriate setting it to around -120ms.


----------



## FireGS

Akora said:


> I'm currently working on a mockup of "Lighting of the Beacons" from Lord of the Rings and my goal is to make it using only 4 libraries in total - the full Infinite series, and CinePerc. Here is a little part from the build up section, where only Infinite Brass is playing. I wanted to isolate the brass so if anyone can give some feedback on how to make it sound better or closer to the original, it would be great! I'm not good at mixing, compression, eq, etc...
> Is it too muddy or too synthy?
> 
> *It starts at a loud point, so watch your ears!*


You know, this reminds me that I started working on this piece with a few other libraries, but I stopped because I was really frustrated by the lack of dynamics and note lengths available to me. I should redo this with IB...

Here's where I got, and I gave up.

View attachment LOTR Edit 1 Export 3.mp3


----------



## samplin

M0rdechai said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> For someone thats looking into, you know... all this... starting to make orchestral music with plugins.. it seems that the Infinite Series gets surprisingly little attention on this forum. So much so that I'm starting to wonder if there is some post(s) that I may have missed on why this would suck...
> 
> With all the talk around - you know which library - and reading the sample talk forum regularly a lot of pro's and cons regarding 'staple template picks' have been discussed:
> 
> - does it have a bass flute (starting with the most important here)
> - price
> - loading times
> - RAM usage
> - 'sound'
> - Mutes on brass
> - Euphonium
> - Saxophones
> - Chromatic recording vs every other note (or more)
> - recording each instrument on its own vs as an ensemble
> - 'playability' of a library
> etc...
> 
> Looking at the few posts on here that mention the Infinite Series by Aaron Venture, I see almost exclusively happy users. and yet the top contenders for a 'solid alround template' on this forum seem to always be the Cinematic Studio Series, the Berlin Series and Spitfire Audio.
> And I'm not saying those aren't great. at all.. But why is there so little mention of this series?
> 
> It has every instrument recorded seperately. Includes instruments like Euphonium, bass clarinet, saxophones, etc. that other libraries wont. Recorded chromatically. Seems to be very light on performance. Seems to be consistently programmed with good legato and smooth transitions between velocities... I could go on..
> 
> So my question is; why is this mentioned so little?
> Perhaps because this is quite new and most of you guys are already set with your templates and are happy users of above mentioned libs? Is it to expensive? (I do see that it is priced higher than some, but also lower than others..)
> Am I simply not hearing that the sound is _obviously way to ...... _ (insert here)?
> Please help me understand, because I am seriously thinking about skipping all the CSS, Berlin Series and Spitifire stuff and chose this over it. Am I making a mistake?


It's a valid question and they have improved immensely in the last updated. The question is what do you need at the end of the day... If you need to work quickly they can produce great results... Ive heard some very nice demos from people , but some music and instruments have a wide breadth of tones, articulations and colours and if you write music that uses many of these it can be limiting. Thats my 2 cents


----------



## Bollen

samplin said:


> It's a valid question and they have improved immensely in the last updated. The question is what do you need at the end of the day... If you need to work quickly they can produce great results... Ive heard some very nice demos from people , but some music and instruments have a wide breadth of tones, articulations and colours and if you write music that uses many of these it can be limiting. Thats my 2 cents


So true... I have to have so many libraries just to have the sound of ONE instrument! Some for quiet bits, some for dirty bits, some for more rare techniques, etc. Fortunately this should start changing soon with a certain company that's around the corner...


----------



## CT

Akora said:


> I'm currently working on a mockup of "Lighting of the Beacons" from Lord of the Rings and my goal is to make it using only 4 libraries in total - the full Infinite series, and CinePerc. Here is a little part from the build up section, where only Infinite Brass is playing. I wanted to isolate the brass so if anyone can give some feedback on how to make it sound better or closer to the original, it would be great! I'm not good at mixing, compression, eq, etc...
> Is it too muddy or too synthy?
> 
> *It starts at a loud point, so watch your ears!*


Hmm... well to start I think those triplets need to be a bit more rhythmically well-defined. 

The low brass has that characteristic... something... that Infinite Brass' lower instruments has which just doesn't work for me at all. I don't own the library so I have no idea how, or if, that can be addressed, but at the very least, it does feel like the first few notes of those parts need to breathe a bit more naturally instead of sustaining as statically as they do. 

Also the ensemble imaging is a bit atypical, with the low brass off to the left it seems? Not a _problem_ but just unusual, and it cramps the sound a bit, whereas in the original the horns and trumpets/low brass are quite distinctly separate on either edge of the stereo field.

The trumpet flourish into the last chord is very artificial. Is there some heavy compression kicking in there maybe?


----------



## Trash Panda

I’m sure @aaronventure will not likely comment, but I’m intrigued to know what aspect of the strings he’s working on. Me guess is figuring out how to make the CPU load manageable with so many convolutions required for ensembles.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ansthenia said:


> The manual for Infinite brass states you should set a -30ms delay for proper rhythmic alignment for grid-aligned notes, but this doesn't seem accurate to me? The legatos have way more delay, seems more appropriate setting it to around -120ms.


That is not true. It might say that you should keep the base delay as -30ms (I keep mine a bit higher), but it doesn't say that the legato is -30ms. It means the pre-attack/pre-noise for each note is about -30ms before it reaches the "peak" that is considered the actual attack of a note. The legato actually ranges from -50ms to -1700ms depending on the instrument and velocity. Since the Infinite series has an Infinite* amount of legato variations between 1-127 velocity each has a slightly different delay. The lower you go in velocity the slower the legato transition will be, the higher you go the faster it will be.



> Legato duration is determined by note velocity; higher velocity equals faster transition. The response follows an exponential curve and the response times can range from 1700 ms to 70- 50 ms, to very short ranges like 350 ms to 50 ms (each instrument has a slightly different legato curve and different legato timing limits), meaning there are 127 different timings for each instrument. Very low velocity values will induce a glide for trombones.



Here's a handy little chart of the exponential representation of what each velocity corresponds to in legato duration. It's just a representation and not something you can use to determine what delay to actually use for a specific note, you will have to use your ears.


----------



## Akora

FireGS said:


> You know, this reminds me that I started working on this piece with a few other libraries, but I stopped because I was really frustrated by the lack of dynamics and note lengths available to me. I should redo this with IB...
> 
> Here's where I got, and I gave up.
> 
> View attachment LOTR Edit 1 Export 3.mp3


That's great! I think you should continue if you are up for it. Working with the Infinite instruments feels so freeing and easy to me, as I don't have to spend ages tweaking articulation changes.



Michaelt said:


> Hmm... well to start I think those triplets need to be a bit more rhythmically well-defined.
> 
> The low brass has that characteristic... something... that Infinite Brass' lower instruments has which just doesn't work for me at all. I don't own the library so I have no idea how, or if, that can be addressed, but at the very least, it does feel like the first few notes of those parts need to breathe a bit more naturally instead of sustaining as statically as they do.
> 
> Also the ensemble imaging is a bit atypical, with the low brass off to the left it seems? Not a _problem_ but just unusual, and it cramps the sound a bit, whereas in the original the horns and trumpets/low brass are quite distinctly separate on either edge of the stereo field.
> 
> The trumpet flourish into the last chord is very artificial. Is there some heavy compression kicking in there maybe?


Thanks for the great feedback! I don't know what to do about that characteristic you mention, but the rest I can work with.


----------



## El Buhdai

Trash Panda said:


> I’m sure @aaronventure will not likely comment, but I’m intrigued to know what aspect of the strings he’s working on. Me guess is figuring out how to make the CPU load manageable with so many convolutions required for ensembles.


You're more likely to receive information like that if you email him. Sorry in advance for this, Aaron.


----------



## Jamus

Is ETA still 2021? I don't know how many more delays my fragile heart can take 😭


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> Is ETA still 2021? I don't know how many more delays my fragile heart can take 😭


Brass and Woodwinds were Nov and Oct releases, right? Following that pattern, it should be a Sep release.

So either within the next week, or 1-year and 1-week...


----------



## FireGS

Pretty sure the Woodwinds update is coming before IS. So, dont expect IS until you've received the IW update email.


----------



## morganwable

Jamus said:


> Is ETA still 2021? I don't know how many more delays my fragile heart can take 😭


Honestly. I _don't_ mind delays if it means a quality product (and if it means that Aaron doesn't have to lose his mind working overtime)... but a little transparancy would be appreciated.

Sample libraries are *huge* purchasing decisions, and not being able to make an informed choice about Infinite Strings vs. Sample Modeling Strings has literally impacted my workflow - I can't afford to get both, so I'm stuck using Spitfire (blegh) until... _literally who knows when_. I haven't written orchestral music in months because I recently switched DAWs and I don't want to go through redoing my orchestral template until it's modeled sections only, because baked articulations are the bane of my creative flow.





_If only I could run Logic Pro X on Windows... Maybe some day..._

I wouldn't even care if IS wasn't coming out until 2023 (although god forbid)... if I simply knew that. In that case, I'd buy SM strings happily now while it's still on "temporary" sale (cause let's face it, Covid is probably never going away), but for all I know, Infinite Strings could come out next month, be vastly better, and then I will have wasted like 400 dollars. Which is not a small amount of money.

So I'm at an impasse.

I'm _not _asking for a rushed product, all I'm asking for is an honest, candid ETA. Even a _vague _one.

* *Is it still going to be 2021?* If so, I can hold out.
* Is it going to be mid 2022 or later? In that case, I'll just start saving up and will probably buy both.
_I just need to know._

I'm not trying to throw a tantrum... I just think maybe an updated time estimate would behoove (and financially benefit) AV, even if the projected wait is going to disappoint people.



I like music said:


> Brass and Woodwinds were Nov and Oct releases, right? Following that pattern, it should be a Sep release.
> 
> So either within the next week, or 1-year and 1-week...


Don't jinx it.

Also, I do appreciate that AV has prioritized improving IB and IW before releasing the new product... until now. 2.0 and 1.6 are good enough as is. I implore you, save more updates for after IS. Please.

I personally can't wait for the agonizing, but exhilarating, drip-feed wait for Infinite Percussion. Although I'd prefer not to have to go through all this again, psychologically.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Pretty sure the Woodwinds update is coming before IS. So, dont expect IS until you've received the IW update email.


Hi @FireGS ,

Looking forward to receiving the IW Update email. Hopefully it's not next year.


----------



## brek

I had wondered how useful these would be in a big band context. Recently did an exercise re-harmonizing the Brinstar track from the original Metroid...

Originally just had a single instrument for the melody, but Infinite series is so easy to use I ended up with some parts fully orchestrated for big band:

View attachment Metroid Theme v00-04.mp3


This arrangement didn't really call for a variety of articulations and dynamics (nor did I spend time tweaking them), but it's still impressive how much everything just works (setting aside the occasional stuck note).


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> Honestly. I _don't_ mind delays if it means a quality product (and if it means that Aaron doesn't have to lose his mind working overtime)... but a little transparancy would be appreciated.
> 
> Sample libraries are *huge* purchasing decisions, and not being able to make an informed choice about Infinite Strings vs. Sample Modeling Strings has literally impacted my workflow - I can't afford to get both, so I'm stuck using Spitfire (blegh) until... _literally who knows when_. I haven't written orchestral music in months because I recently switched DAWs and I don't want to go through redoing my orchestral template until it's modeled sections only, because baked articulations are the bane of my creative flow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _If only I could run Logic Pro X on Windows... Maybe some day..._
> 
> I wouldn't even care if IS wasn't coming out until 2023 (although god forbid)... if I simply knew that. In that case, I'd buy SM strings happily now while it's still on "temporary" sale (cause let's face it, Covid is probably never going away), but for all I know, Infinite Strings could come out next month, be vastly better, and then I will have wasted like 400 dollars. Which is not a small amount of money.
> 
> So I'm at an impasse.
> 
> I'm _not _asking for a rushed product, all I'm asking for is an honest, candid ETA. Even a _vague _one.
> 
> * *Is it still going to be 2021?* If so, I can hold out.
> * Is it going to be mid 2022 or later? In that case, I'll just start saving up and will probably buy both.
> _I just need to know._
> 
> I'm not trying to throw a tantrum... I just think maybe an updated time estimate would behoove (and financially benefit) AV, even if the projected wait is going to disappoint people.
> 
> 
> Don't jinx it.
> 
> Also, I do appreciate that AV has prioritized improving IB and IW before releasing the new product... until now. 2.0 and 1.6 are good enough as is. I implore you, save more updates for after IS. Please.
> 
> I personally can't wait for the agonizing, but exhilarating, drip-feed wait for Infinite Percussion. Although I'd prefer not to have to go through all this again, psychologically.


Have you tried emailing Aaron directly? He’s very good about responding quickly.


----------



## morganwable

brek said:


> I had wondered how useful these would be in a big band context. Recently did an exercise re-harmonizing the Brinstar track from the original Metroid...
> 
> Originally just had a single instrument for the melody, but Infinite series is so easy to use I ended up with some parts fully orchestrated for big band:
> 
> View attachment Metroid Theme v00-04.mp3
> 
> 
> This arrangement didn't really call for a variety of articulations and dynamics (nor did I spend time tweaking them), but it's still impressive how much everything just works (setting aside the occasional stuck note).


*Sick*. I bet Red Brinstar from Super Metroid would make for a nice chill, dark lounge jazz kind of vibe. Dibs! Anyway, I am now somewhat convinced that Infinite cuts the mustard for non-orchestra. Previous examples... were _not _cutting it - except PerryD's awesome, weird, experimental stuff.

*Edit: I forgot to ask - what are you using for your drums and upright bass in this? @brek *



Trash Panda said:


> Have you tried emailing Aaron directly? He’s very good about responding quickly.


Nah, that would be even ruder than just (semi) complaining about it here. I'm not a customer yet. If I were, and I were _actively_ relying on his products for professional work, I might bug him about it directly - again not to rush just to get an idea - but I am not, so I feel like that'd be out of line. This thread just having hit page 268 is probably pressure enough. Still, though... I just want to know if the ETA currently on the website is still within reach... That's all...

But man... once it finally comes out and I actually get my hands on an articulation-free orchestra palette, it's *over*. I'm legitimately going to have to take a week off of work cause I'm just going to be making mockup after mockup after mockup. Some James Horner to test IB's limits, a few genre-switching arrangements my current libraries aren't cut out for; I might see if the trumpets and trombones are viable for ska, mariachi, Morricone style stuff, I have so many ideas... I've been planning this staycation since January. As soon as I have a date for it...

Either way, once IS drops, I have confidence that I'll finally be able to work fast and efficient enough, and able enough to meet my own pedantic, self-imposed standards, that I'll start taking paid commissions. I hope to make the AV series pay for itself by the end of 2022....

...or by the end of whatever year follows the one it actually comes out during.

I'm so goddamned excited, though.
I'm starting to think maybe I should put these essay style rants of mine in spoiler tags or something. I get long-winded about these things.


----------



## DANIELE

morganwable said:


> Honestly. I _don't_ mind delays if it means a quality product (and if it means that Aaron doesn't have to lose his mind working overtime)... but a little transparancy would be appreciated.
> 
> Sample libraries are *huge* purchasing decisions, and not being able to make an informed choice about Infinite Strings vs. Sample Modeling Strings has literally impacted my workflow - I can't afford to get both, so I'm stuck using Spitfire (blegh) until... _literally who knows when_. I haven't written orchestral music in months because I recently switched DAWs and I don't want to go through redoing my orchestral template until it's modeled sections only, because baked articulations are the bane of my creative flow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _If only I could run Logic Pro X on Windows... Maybe some day..._
> 
> I wouldn't even care if IS wasn't coming out until 2023 (although god forbid)... if I simply knew that. In that case, I'd buy SM strings happily now while it's still on "temporary" sale (cause let's face it, Covid is probably never going away), but for all I know, Infinite Strings could come out next month, be vastly better, and then I will have wasted like 400 dollars. Which is not a small amount of money.
> 
> So I'm at an impasse.
> 
> I'm _not _asking for a rushed product, all I'm asking for is an honest, candid ETA. Even a _vague _one.
> 
> * *Is it still going to be 2021?* If so, I can hold out.
> * Is it going to be mid 2022 or later? In that case, I'll just start saving up and will probably buy both.
> _I just need to know._
> 
> I'm not trying to throw a tantrum... I just think maybe an updated time estimate would behoove (and financially benefit) AV, even if the projected wait is going to disappoint people.
> 
> 
> Don't jinx it.
> 
> Also, I do appreciate that AV has prioritized improving IB and IW before releasing the new product... until now. 2.0 and 1.6 are good enough as is. I implore you, save more updates for after IS. Please.
> 
> I personally can't wait for the agonizing, but exhilarating, drip-feed wait for Infinite Percussion. Although I'd prefer not to have to go through all this again, psychologically.


Hey I also switched from FL Studio to Reaper a long time ago, now I'm so happy with Reaper that sometimes I ask myself why I didn't do it before.

I'm also waiting for IS or SMS new update to came out to start composing again, I've been standing still for months too.

I think Aaron doesn't know himself the exact date, he is maybe trying to do his best to drop IS before 2021 ends and until the very end he will keep the 2021 on the site.


----------



## porrasm

DANIELE said:


> Hey I also switched from FL Studio to Reaper a long time ago, now I'm so happy with Reaper that sometimes I ask myself why I didn't do it before.
> 
> I'm also waiting for IS or SMS new update to came out to start composing again, I've been standing still for months too.
> 
> I think Aaron doesn't know himself the exact date, he is maybe trying to do his best to drop IS before 2021 ends and until the very end he will keep the 2021 on the site.


I'm currently an FLS user, tried Reaper once and didn't much like it. Out of curiosity what advantages do you see in Reaper over FLS?


----------



## Piotrek K.

porrasm said:


> I'm currently an FLS user, tried Reaper once and didn't much like it. Out of curiosity what advantages do you see in Reaper over FLS?


I'm Reaper/FL studio user as well. I love FL, consistency of UI, good looks, BRSO articulate but workflow based on CC is too messy in FL for me (I really don't like using automation clips). In Reaper CC management is just much much easier and better structured, also it is super flexible - I made most of things to work similar to FL studio, zooming, mouse behavior etc.). And with this theme reaper can look a bit better + familiar


----------



## Loerpert

Piotrek K. said:


> I'm Reaper/FL studio user as well. I love FL, consistency of UI, good looks, BRSO articulate but workflow based on CC is too messy in FL for me (I really don't like using automation clips). In Reaper CC management is just much much easier and better structured, also it is super flexible - I made most of things to work similar to FL studio, zooming, mouse behavior etc.). And with this theme reaper can look a bit better + familiar



Why did you use automation clips? If you're "drawing" in dynamics and such you're much better off using the event editor. In my opinion using FL patcher in combination with BRSO is the god of orchestral programming. If you put some time in creating presets, you can just drag in the instrument preset you created and start working. With all the benefits of BRSO Articulate


----------



## Jonathan Moray

porrasm said:


> I'm currently an FLS user, tried Reaper once and didn't much like it. Out of curiosity what advantages do you see in Reaper over FLS?


Currently, I'm using REAPER as well and have been doing ALL my work in REAPER for the past year, but I've been doing SFX and foley in REAPER for a couple of years so it's been a gradual transition. Before that, I used Cubase and long before that I used FLS.

There's nothing directly wrong with FLS but the workflow in FLS is not very well suited for orchestral or more complex/organic music. It's great for EDM, HipHop, Trap, etc, not so much when you need a lot of midi automation with like 5 different automation lanes for a large number of instruments. I'm not saying you can't make good music in FLS, you can, but for me, it felt like the program worked against me, and I became more and more frustrated with the way it did things compared to the way I wanted to do things.

It's been a good few years since I've even seen FLS so I'm unsure of what it looks like now, but before, it used these patterns that really didn't work very well for making music that's not based on... well, patterns. Or you had to do these long patterns that stretched the whole song and that always seemed like a burden to work with. Also, the way it deals with instruments and sounds (placing each as a new channel in the rack and you having to create groups to keep them somewhat organized, but still separate from the playlist so you have to find them in the rack and then create a clip to put into the playlist) never really resonated with me. This was before years before BRSO. And I do like the way you can use different articulations by changing the note colour in FLS, you could most likely do something similar in REAPER.

One of the biggest reasons for me was that REAPER is extremely flexible with a lot of user-created scripts for almost everything you can think of. I've also created a few of my own custom scripts for some of my libraries. For example, I've created a couple of humanization scripts for the Infinite Series, some basic CC automation so that I can have a marcato or swell or any other standard articulation with just the click of a button. Small things like that. And it doesn't need a dongle... like Cubase did. Which I found to be a real pain.


----------



## Piotrek K.

Loerpert said:


> Why did you use automation clips? If you're "drawing" in dynamics and such you're much better off using the event editor. In my opinion using FL patcher in combination with BRSO is the god of orchestral programming. If you put some time in creating presets, you can just drag in the instrument preset you created and start working. With all the benefits of BRSO Articulate


Sorry, my bad. I'm not using automation clips, I'm using CC lane in piano roll (I don't like event editor, I really prefer to have one window for piano roll + cc + velocity and in FL it's not possible to see all of them at once). I tried to use automation clips to have multiple CC's in one place, one under another, but I really disliked that approach. And CC management in piano roll is messy imo, it's hard to find certain CC's when I have 30-40 and more of those.


----------



## DANIELE

porrasm said:


> I'm currently an FLS user, tried Reaper once and didn't much like it. Out of curiosity what advantages do you see in Reaper over FLS?


Well some users already answered you, I must add the "total customization" I did in Reaper. I drawed icons, I wrote or edited scripts, I shaped everything to my needs and if I want to change my workflow I can everytime I want. I set up a LOT of function with one-click shortcuts. I could simply say "If I can think it I can do it with Reaper".

Another thing is the continuous improvements and updates the developers brings to the DAW. They fix things, they add things, they listen to the users and so on.

Nothing is perfect but for me Reaper is the go to for "more making music -> less adjusting things".


----------



## porrasm

Thanks for the responses. I may give Reaper a try again at some point, the customization options do sound very nice (especially the scripts etc. since I'm a programmer). But many of the flaws you bring out in FL have not proven to be a problem for me (except not being able to see velocity and CCs at the same time :emoji_angry. At least for now I'll be sticking with FL since my workflow is quite "annoyance" free.


----------



## I like music

All this Reaper talk, and even though I use Cubase, there's one thing I know for sure...

That the strings currently behave in the exact same way between both DAWs. They make absolutely no sound at all.

I wonder when we'll be able to do a full comparison!


----------



## Loerpert

porrasm said:


> Thanks for the responses. I may give Reaper a try again at some point, the customization options do sound very nice (especially the scripts etc. since I'm a programmer). But many of the flaws you bring out in FL have not proven to be a problem for me (except not being able to see velocity and CCs at the same time :emoji_angry. At least for now I'll be sticking with FL since my workflow is quite "annoyance" free.



FL Studio now allows you to do a lot of things with Python as well.


----------



## gedlig

I like music said:


> All this Reaper talk, and even though I use Cubase, there's one thing I know for sure...
> 
> That the strings currently behave in the exact same way between both DAWs. They make absolutely no sound at all.
> 
> I wonder when we'll be able to do a full comparison!


That's cause you got the 4′33″ edition


----------



## doctoremmet

I don’t do this often. And I hate others that do this. But I really really hope Infinite Strings is still slated for a 2021 release. Make it happen! ❤️


----------



## porrasm

Loerpert said:


> FL Studio now allows you to do a lot of things with Python as well.


I had almost forgotten that but IIRC that's MIDI scripting only? Anyway I gotta look into it.


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> I don’t do this often. And I hate others that do this. But I really really hope Infinite Strings is still slated for a 2021 release. Make it happen! ❤️


Now that you've joined the Zombie hordes calling for the strings, we might actually stand a chance of a 2021 release


----------



## Oxytoxine

To shorten the waiting time, maybe a question would help 

*What do you guys use to blend Infinite Woods n Brass with other libraries? What do you use for positioning / spatialization? *

I know - this has been partially discussed before, but it’s very hard to screen such a monster-thread for snippets of information, and I wonder whether there is a consensus on what works best?

Do you bypass the internal seating tool / impulse responses?

I am still unexperienced in this field and would find your thoughts on this very interesting.


*****
Longer Version
*****
So maybe I could start with a list with the basic possibilities that crossed my mind and what I tried (beginner in this field, so bare with me). First the obvious:

_1. Use the built-in seating tool and reverb (one of the two bigger halls, depending on which matches more closely with the other libs used in the project). In addition a bit of glue reverb on the section bus or master channel. 

2. Use the built-in seating tool and reverb (studio hall, to keep it as dry as possible). In addition more glue reverb on the section bus and / or master channel to put all libs into the same room. _

This very basic approach in some ways works surprisingly well for me depending on which other libs are involved, but I don’t have the ear yet to really judge the finesses and I assume that things can get messed up fast. For example: the seating positions in the AV libs will not precisely match the ones in the other libs (and every one is slightly or even drastically different in this regard), both with regard to stereo field and depth. I can personally not hear when e.g. a Trombone is slightly more to the left or right than one from a different lib, but even I can hear if the Trombone suddenly sits in another section or when the differences in depth are too pronounced  I would then try to remedy this with Precedence or just some low pass filter or so to push the AV instruments a bit more to the back or front if needed, but this is probably highly unprofessional and not recommended (because combining the internal spatialization machine with a second external one seems to call for trouble in so many regards).

_3. Completely turn off the inbuilt impulse responses, set all instruments to center position, and then use an external positioning tool + reverb (e.g. MIR or Precedence + Breeze, or more complex with separate ERs and then tail using different reverbs). _

Rationale: As the AV libs depend so much on internal impulse responses for spatialization and reverb, I thought that it might not be the best idea to introduce yet another set of additional impulse responses on top.

I did not find a way to turn the reverb impulse responses completely off without messing in the depths of the Kontakt settings - how do you do that? And: I assume this is not intended at all, otherwise it would be mentioned / documented somewhere?

I tried to center position the AV instruments, choose the studio hall (as I don’t know how to turn it completely off), then position the instruments with Precedence, and either used Breeze as an algorithmic reverb (which can be linked with Precedence), or also Spaces II as the reverb. Advantage: I can then position the instruments correctly with the instruments of the other libs. Disadvantage: Depending on the situation (and probably mood - sometimes I think it sound horrible, sometimes I feel it’s adequate), the sonic result is less than optimal. Especially when also including other dry instruments in the same way (I tried with the Chris Hein Orchestra and Sample Modeling), there is something very artificial, even „metallic“ in the end result that I do not like.

I do not have MIR and have not tried that.

In case someone uses Precedence: do you then use it in combination with Breeze (or another algo reverb), or with a convolution reverb (like Spaces)? I think here basically my question is whether it’s a good idea to use (on top of the plethora of internal impulse responses) yet another convo reverb (for example the positioning info in the impulse responses in the convo reverb will also slightly differ from the internal stuff, introducing trouble).

So in essence: *what is the recommended method to match AV libs with others? What gives you the best results? *

As I’ve spent the last year or so (since entering this fascinating world of sampled orchestras) predominantly with testing, comparing, learning stuff and suffering a bit from „paralysis by overthinking“ instead of actually composing something worthy to show off, I can unfortunately not simply post several projects using different methods in context and ask „what do you like the best?“, but I hope that this day will come soon 

Of course, I also hope so much that we can soon simply use the full AV orchestra on it’s own as an „internally coherent“ package, including strings and percussion I found out that being forced to use keyswitch libs is against the human rights


----------



## DavidRubenstein

brek said:


> I had wondered how useful these would be in a big band context. Recently did an exercise re-harmonizing the Brinstar track from the original Metroid...
> 
> Originally just had a single instrument for the melody, but Infinite series is so easy to use I ended up with some parts fully orchestrated for big band:
> 
> View attachment Metroid Theme v00-04.mp3
> 
> 
> This arrangement didn't really call for a variety of articulations and dynamics (nor did I spend time tweaking them), but it's still impressive how much everything just works (setting aside the occasional stuck note).


Brek, your arrangement is beautiful--I love it!


----------



## Quasar

Thinking about having more instant playability to get away from MIDI programming, keyswitches and all of that, I just recently dove into the Infinite Series walkthrough stuff, and WOW! Now I have buyer's remorse for not prioritizing these over a whole bunch of other orchestral libraries I've purchased in the past.

My amateur thought is that because of the inherent limitations of playing recorded samples and having a certain amount of the expressiveness baked in, some instruments are by their nature easier to emulate on a MIDI keyboard than others. Virtual pianos (and really anything percussive), for example, are relatively easy to render on piano-like keyboards, for obvious reasons. Guitars are much, much harder to emulate because the ways in which articulations are played on a guitar are so physically different than as executed via keystroke.

So for the orchestral groups, I would opine that the order in which expressive articulation options makes the most difference, from most to least critical, are:

1) Brass
2) WWs
3) Strings
4) Percussion

Which means if I splurge on AV, I would go for the Infinite Brass first. Does this hierarchy make sense in other peoples' opinions or experience?

Really impressed with the AV series stuff released so far.


----------



## I like music

Quasar said:


> Thinking about having more instant playability to get away from MIDI programming, keyswitches and all of that, I just recently dove into the Infinite Series walkthrough stuff, and WOW! Now I have buyer's remorse for not prioritizing these over a whole bunch of other orchestral libraries I've purchased in the past.
> 
> My amateur thought is that because of the inherent limitations of playing recorded samples and having a certain amount of the expressiveness baked in, some instruments are by their nature easier to emulate on a MIDI keyboard than others. Virtual pianos (and really anything percussive), for example, are relatively easy to render on piano-like keyboards, for obvious reasons. Guitars are much, much harder to emulate because the ways in which articulations are played on a guitar are so physically different than as executed via keystroke.
> 
> So for the orchestral groups, I would opine that the order in which expressive articulation options makes the most difference, from most to least critical, are:
> 
> 1) Brass
> 2) WWs
> 3) Strings
> 4) Percussion
> 
> Which means if I splurge on AV, I would go for the Infinite Brass first. Does this hierarchy make sense in other peoples' opinions or experience?
> 
> Really impressed with the AV series stuff released so far.


I'd agree with that hierarchy! And despite some small niggles I have with the transition/legato sounds of the WW, they are a very close second to the brass. As I said, I got rid of Berlin Woods when I got IW. And I loved Berlin Woods.


----------



## constaneum

porrasm said:


> Thanks for the responses. I may give Reaper a try again at some point, the customization options do sound very nice (especially the scripts etc. since I'm a programmer). But many of the flaws you bring out in FL have not proven to be a problem for me (except not being able to see velocity and CCs at the same time :emoji_angry. At least for now I'll be sticking with FL since my workflow is quite "annoyance" free.


happy FL user here though i wish the "edit events" thing can be improved


----------



## shawnsingh

Quasar said:


> So for the orchestral groups, I would opine that the order in which expressive articulation options makes the most difference, from most to least critical, are:
> 
> 1) Brass
> 2) WWs
> 3) Strings
> 4) Percussion
> 
> Which means if I splurge on AV, I would go for the Infinite Brass first. Does this hierarchy make sense in other peoples' opinions or experience?



I think the ordering will depend very heavily on what music style you're making, as well as what libraries are being used...


----------



## morganwable

shawnsingh said:


> I think the ordering will depend very heavily on what music style you're making, as well as what libraries are being used...


Very much this. Personally, at least as somebody who tends to write strings-first (a habit owning IB may hopefully break), I feel like keyswitching tends to hold back the sound of my string sections far more than others. I can get away with articulations in other sections easily, but they never have the flexibility I want with strings. Even a lumbering, reverb-soaked behemoth like Spitfire Brass can be coaxed into an acceptable, even somewhat realistic, performance.

The problem, of course, is that it has to be coaxed. And not in the Infinite way, that being massaging the CCs and making microsecond changes to the note timing for a natural instrument response - no... you're doing the same thing just for the purpose of debugging and patching over obvious holes in the library's programming. BIG difference. No Infinite experience yet, but I've at least toyed around with the SWAM instruments and lemme just say that this is a REALLY big distinction; for all of you _"you have to tweak your MIDI just as much as traditional libraries if not more!"_ naysayers out there.

Back on topic: by comparison to brass and wind, string libraries tend to have unacceptably clunky legato, dynamics issues, bad crossfades, etc. - by my standards, disappointingly inelegant. Not even in the same zip code as agile.

If all three of these were out, I'd certainly buy IS first. In that way, I think doing it second to last may have been a genius business decision. Despite not having added them to my palette yet, the simple fact that IW and IB _exist_ has completely changed the way I think about writing for both sections. I think I'm going to buy them soon, I got some extra hours at work the past few weeks.


----------



## doctoremmet

morganwable said:


> Very much this. Personally, at least as somebody who tends to write strings-first (a habit owning IB may hopefully break), I feel like keyswitching tends to hold back the sound of my string sections far more than others. I can get away with articulations in other sections easily, but they never have the flexibility I want with strings. Even a lumbering, reverb-soaked behemoth like Spitfire Brass can be coaxed into an acceptable, even somewhat realistic, performance.
> 
> The problem, of course, is that it has to be coaxed. And not in the Infinite way, that being massaging the CCs and making microsecond changes to the note timing for a natural instrument response - no... you're doing the same thing just for the purpose of debugging and patching over obvious holes in the library's programming. BIG difference. No Infinite experience yet, but I've at least toyed around with the SWAM instruments and lemme just say that this is a REALLY big distinction; for all of you _"you have to tweak your MIDI just as much as traditional libraries if not more!"_ naysayers out there.
> 
> Back on topic: by comparison to brass and wind, string libraries tend to have unacceptably clunky legato, dynamics issues, bad crossfades, etc. - by my standards, disappointingly inelegant. Not even in the same zip code as agile.
> 
> If all three of these were out, I'd certainly buy IS first. In that way, I think doing it second to last may have been a genius business decision. Despite not having added them to my palette yet, the simple fact that IW and IB _exist_ has completely changed the way I think about writing for both sections. I think I'm going to buy them soon, I got some extra hours at work the past few weeks.


Cool reflections, that totally sum up my own thoughts & feelings. Thanks for this. Good post!


----------



## Denkii

I'd rather spend 10 minutes trying to tweak midi for infinite *and hearing the immediate effect that my changes have on the performance* than spend the same amount or more to go through a variety of articulations that I try to piece together like a puzzle that is supposedly colored but oftentimes the pieces don't fit like you'd expect.

That's my experience with infinite...if that makes any sense.
I find infinite more reliable and predictable in that regard. No matter if I draw it in or play it in (my playing skills are very limited).


----------



## I like music

Been mocking up Goldsmith's First Contact theme (Infinite + CSS) - should be able to share it soon. I had to drop SM Strings on this because CSS did well enough for the important bits and I just don't have the mixing skills to get SM strings in there. However, I'll do two versions and share ... one with SM strings and one with CSS. And of course, when IS is out then you can hear the Goldsmith + Infinite collab.

Why did I post this? Oh yeah, just to say that I didn't make much progress because I spent an hour fucking around with a 4 note motif on the solo trumpet. Not because I didn't get a good result the first time, but just because on the solo line, I literally tried 20 different strength + speed combos of the vibrato. And it was great fun just doing that.

I think what I like is that I finally get to tell someone in this house what to do, and they do it. Anyways, Infinite Brass slowed me down, but that's just because I got to try every possible variation of that phrase, and finally found the one which sounded appropriate.


----------



## DJiLAND

The Infinite series is almost the only library that allows composers to express their performances the way they want. (There are SM and AM, but I like Infinite's tone better)
Of course you need a little EQ, but the IB is almost perfect.
Especially, IB is a killer library of solo brass instruments.
But I just wish the ensemble was a little easier.
I'm very excited that aron is r&d on it.

IW hope to improve the timbre. Bassoon and clarinet are good. In particular, the bassoon is used very well. But the oboe is unattractive, and the flute... it sounds like an oboe... the flute's tone really needs improvement.
If the tone of Woodwinds improves and only the strings are released, I'm ready to do everything with Infinite.

Here's a short Stem demo of IB, taken from the music I made. I put the IB on the syncron stage of the Mir Pro.

View attachment IB_Mir.mp3


----------



## gedlig

*wishes for a -xⁿ months on IS*


----------



## ansthenia

gedlig said:


> *wishes for a -xⁿ months on IS*


I asked Aaron about the strings, he replied _"+2,628,288 seconds"_


----------



## Saxer

ansthenia said:


> I asked Aaron about the strings, he replied _"+2,628,288 seconds"_


That's a month


----------



## ansthenia

Saxer said:


> That's a month


Exactly!

I was kidding btw, don't take it seriously.


----------



## Oxytoxine

DJiLAND said:


> The Infinite series is almost the only library that allows composers to express their performances the way they want. (There are SM and AM, but I like Infinite's tone better)
> Of course you need a little EQ, but the IB is almost perfect.
> Especially, IB is a killer library of solo brass instruments.
> But I just wish the ensemble was a little easier.
> I'm very excited that aron is r&d on it.
> 
> IW hope to improve the timbre. Bassoon and clarinet are good. In particular, the bassoon is used very well. But the oboe is unattractive, and the flute... it sounds like an oboe... the flute's tone really needs improvement.
> If the tone of Woodwinds improves and only the strings are released, I'm ready to do everything with Infinite.
> 
> Here's a short Stem demo of IB, taken from the music I made. I put the IB on the syncron stage of the Mir Pro.
> 
> View attachment IB_Mir.mp3


May I ask what you did to IB before putting it into MIR? I assume one has to center the instruments in IB, but it is unclear to me how to remove the IB convolution reverbs?

I don't have MIR yet (currently experimenting with Precendence), but if this allows one to easily use Infinite series with other libs / put it nicely into Synchron and other rooms, I will probably go for it.


----------



## gedlig

ansthenia said:


> I was kidding btw


----------



## DJiLAND

Oxytoxine said:


> May I ask what you did to IB before putting it into MIR? I assume one has to center the instruments in IB, but it is unclear to me how to remove the IB convolution reverbs?
> 
> I don't have MIR yet (currently experimenting with Precendence), but if this allows one to easily use Infinite series with other libs / put it nicely into Synchron and other rooms, I will probably go for it.


I just use a close/inst mic and studio space, center solo layout.
Then I turn on Mono compatibility and set the left and right pan of my tracks to center to make them completely mono, then send them to the MIR.


----------



## Oxytoxine

DJiLAND said:


> I just use a close/inst mic and studio space, center solo layout.
> Then I turn on Mono compatibility and set the left and right pan of my tracks to center to make them completely mono, then send them to the MIR.





DJiLAND said:


> I just use a close/inst mic and studio space, center solo layout.
> Then I turn on Mono compatibility and set the left and right pan of my tracks to center to make them completely mono, then send them to the MIR.


Thanks a lot for the explanation!
I suspected that the internal convos are still enabled, as it sounds so distant / a bit muddled to me (have to listen on good headphones / monitors this evening, currently on phone). I get the same issue when using Precedence + Reverb. I don't know what it is, but I have much trouble trying to put brass into another room, it never sounds right to my ears (it works better for me with other instruments).

And specifically with IB and IW - shouldn't we completely turn off the internal impulse responses, as I was under the assumption that it's not a good idea to put an instrument that already has reverb into another room? Sincere question, not saying it should be like this!
Please don't get me wrong: this is by no means a critique of your work! I am just asking with the hope of getting a clearer picture whether it's worth to go for MIR and because I am a beginner in this field (and my way too long and convoluted question above in the thread re positioning infinite brass did not get answers).

If this indeed sounds like it should and fits well with other Synchron instruments, you have just made me one of the most happy people - being able to nicely integrate IB and IW would really almost be like a dream becoming a reality for me 

So, to cut this short: Do you find that using the internal studio hall plus MIR as e.g. in your example sounds realistic / fits well with the other Synchron instruments? Or even shorter: MIR = recommended?

Sorry for stealing your time and the plethora of questions - no problem if you don't feel like answering beginners questions.
Thanks a ton and happy music making!


----------



## Trash Panda

If you set the instrument to the soloist position, solo the close mic and use the Studio room, you’ll see the convolutions disabled under the wrench menu.

Some of the dry samples just sound a tad further away, but they work fine when run through Aaron’s IRs.

Personally, I find better results by using an IB/IW IR with a similar style to the library I’m matching to, then add some subtle tail only reverb.

For instance, if I’m matching you something on a scoring stage, I’ll use Bersa hall with the desired seating position, configure a mic mix that sounds right and add a tail verb using Chameleon or Breeze.


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> If you set the instrument to the soloist position, solo the close mic and use the Studio room, you’ll see the convolutions disabled under the wrench menu.
> 
> Some of the dry samples just sound a tad further away, but they work fine when run through Aaron’s IRs.
> 
> Personally, I find better results by using an IB/IW IR with a similar style to the library I’m matching to, then add some subtle tail only reverb.
> 
> For instance, if I’m matching you something on a scoring stage, I’ll use Bersa hall with the desired seating position, configure a mic mix that sounds right and add a tail verb using Chameleon or Breeze.


I really really want to hear the large hall that Aaron was working on. For me, Mozarteum (which is fantastic) just needs a larger sibling hall, as I want to go for that big concert hall sound. And right now I don't know how to properly achieve that using tail verbs etc.


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> I really really want to hear the large hall that Aaron was working on. For me, Mozarteum (which is fantastic) just needs a larger sibling hall, as I want to go for that big concert hall sound. And right now I don't know how to properly achieve that using tail verbs etc.


Chameleon does wonders. If you have any sample libraries with lots of room baked in, you capture their tail via Chameleon to a profile, then apply it to Infinite Brass/Winds. Did it with AR1/BBCSO Core and managed to get some decent Teldex IRS off the Ark 1 walkthrough on OT’s YouTube.


----------



## Denkii

Trash Panda said:


> Personally, I find better results by using an IB/IW IR with a similar style to the library I’m matching to, then add some subtle tail only reverb.
> 
> For instance, if I’m matching you something on a scoring stage, I’ll use Bersa hall with the desired seating position, configure a mic mix that sounds right and add a tail verb using Chameleon or Breeze.


This but I use seventh heaven.


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> If you set the instrument to the soloist position, solo the close mic and use the Studio room, you’ll see the convolutions disabled under the wrench menu.
> 
> Some of the dry samples just sound a tad further away, but they work fine when run through Aaron’s IRs.
> 
> Personally, I find better results by using an IB/IW IR with a similar style to the library I’m matching to, then add some subtle tail only reverb.
> 
> For instance, if I’m matching you something on a scoring stage, I’ll use Bersa hall with the desired seating position, configure a mic mix that sounds right and add a tail verb using Chameleon or Breeze.


I really really want to hear the large hall that Aaron was working on.


Trash Panda said:


> Chameleon does wonders. If you have any sample libraries with lots of room baked in, you capture their tail via Chameleon to a profile, then apply it to Infinite Brass/Winds. Did it with AR1/BBCSO Core and managed to get some decent Teldex IRS off the Ark 1 walkthrough on OT’s YouTube.





Denkii said:


> This but I use seventh heaven.


Wait ... that sounds amazing. Is it easy enough to do e.g. there's a built-in mechanism to do the exact thing you're describing?!


----------



## Oxytoxine

Trash Panda said:


> If you set the instrument to the soloist position, solo the close mic and use the Studio room, you’ll see the convolutions disabled under the wrench menu.
> 
> Some of the dry samples just sound a tad further away, but they work fine when run through Aaron’s IRs.
> 
> Personally, I find better results by using an IB/IW IR with a similar style to the library I’m matching to, then add some subtle tail only reverb.
> 
> For instance, if I’m matching you something on a scoring stage, I’ll use Bersa hall with the desired seating position, configure a mic mix that sounds right and add a tail verb using Chameleon or Breeze.


Merci beaucoup Trash Panda! 

Neither was I aware that in the solo position of the studio room the convo impulses are completely disabled nor did I ever hear of Chameleon before. Just found the thread with your contributions / video - thanks for all this work! Looks rather intimidating at first look, but wow - if this indeed works (and your and Jcrosbys examples show it is) this is almost revolutionary! Will investigate further - the list of things to learn is growing and growing. Also thanks for the two last paragraphs - yes, this seems like a better route (just discovered the prices for MIR and the room packs, ouch), will also experiment further with Precedence + Breeze (and the Chameleon you made me aware of) 👍


----------



## obey

Does 2CAudio do Black Friday or anything like that historically? The 33 percent off is nice but more is always nicer. The PBJ combo seems well worth it to me, but you always gotta be frugal cause you never know when IS is gonna drop. C:


----------



## doctoremmet

obey said:


> Does 2CAudio do Black Friday or anything like that historically? The 33 percent off is nice but more is always nicer. The PBJ combo seems well worth it to me, but you always gotta be frugal cause you never know when IS is gonna drop. C:


I am slightly worried about the complete and utter radio silence and apparent “stasis” from 2CAudio. They used to be quite active on here and the Peanutbutter Jelly combo had me interested as well, but I am under the impression their site hasn’t gotten much love for the past year at least?


----------



## Zanshin

DJiLAND said:


> I just use a close/inst mic and studio space, center solo layout.
> Then I turn on Mono compatibility and set the left and right pan of my tracks to center to make them completely mono, then send them to the MIR.


I keep trying to stay away from MIR, I really liked your demo though - so going to demo MIR extensively this weekend. The results I got with some brief tests this morning though were great. I used a single MIR instance for IB trumpets a3, and wow that might be the most cohesive they've sounded to me.

Is there a update for IW with mono compatibility? I just have the original 2.0 release.


----------



## Oxytoxine

doctoremmet said:


> I am slightly worried about the complete and utter radio silence and apparent “stasis” from 2CAudio. They used to be quite active on here and the Peanutbutter Jelly combo had me interested as well, but I am under the impression their site hasn’t gotten much love for the past year at least?


This is honestly the reason why I did not invest much time in learning the depths of Precedence + Breeze - I would not like to invest much time and energy and build almost my whole workflow around a tool that might be abandoned :( Would be a pity, as the Precedence + Breeze combo is the bomb.

IMPORTANT: This is just me repeating rumors I read here on VI-C - I have no idea what is going on at 2CA.

(just for clarification: the basics - how to couple Precedence and Breeze etc. - are very easy, but I find Breeze to be a rather complex beast to really understand what is going on under the hood)

By the way: Would you or anybody else know which halls / rooms in Breeze would be good matches to approximate e.g.

- Teldex
- Synchron
- Air Lyndhurst

?


----------



## Oxytoxine

obey said:


> Does 2CAudio do Black Friday or anything like that historically? The 33 percent off is nice but more is always nicer. The PBJ combo seems well worth it to me, but you always gotta be frugal cause you never know when IS is gonna drop. C:


I don't know unfortunately - if I remember correctly, I paid 199.- for the PBJ Pack (same price as now) and it was during a sale. 

Honestly, 200.- is a lot of money, but for the power you get it's not much when compared with e.g. MIR - at least I did not find a better option for spatialization then. When I remember correctly, there is also a free plugin called Panagement that claims to do a similar thing as Precedence (although not in the same way and not with the nice integration with a reverb) - so maybe this would be something to try out?


----------



## obey

Panagement did move things around in space but did not deepen any reverb such that things just sounded quieter and not actually any deeper in the space (you'd need to adjust the reverb for that) but the link meant that adjusting position in a linked Precedence also deepened its spatial relation in the Breeze instance which was terribly intuitive. I like the sound of PBJ, and nothing is supported forever (though it would be nice to hear something) I think it's likely worth the money as is (probably more verb than I'll ever find the limits of.) I was just wondering if it was worth waiting until Nov.


----------



## Markrs

Rather interesting comparison of solo trumpet libraries with Infinite Brass as one of the comparisons. The results showed how good the free Norrland Solo Trumpet. Infinite Brass trumpet sounded okay but the reviewer was keen for some advice to get a better sound from it. 

On previous reviews of Infinite Brass he seems really keen to like it but struggles to get a sound and performance he likes from it.


----------



## morganwable

Regarding the above, I gotta say the IB trumpets and CSB are roughly tied, but even in his more lyrical example, I can still hear the "sampleness", so to speak, of the latter. I must say I was very impressed by the semi-modeled free one he showcased, but I think IB still takes the cake on both examples. I'd like to hear the same passages run through Seventh Heaven instead of Valhalla. Valhalla's always sounded kinda... aluminum-y to me. I'm not sure how else to explain it.

From examples I've heard, Infinite and SH seem made for one another.

That being said, I haven't gotten SH to sound anywhere near as smooth, lush, and understated as, say, Cory Pelizzari has. What settings am I missing? *What's everyone's currently favored IB reverb setup?*

A little off topic I suppose, but reverb is immensely important to using modeled instruments and I've heard lots of discussion on using LiquidSonics verbs for this purpose. So here we are.


----------



## Markrs

morganwable said:


> Regarding the above, I gotta say the IB trumpets and CSB are roughly tied, but even in his more lyrical example, I can still hear the "sampleness", so to speak, of the latter. I must say I was very impressed by the semi-modeled free one he showcased, but I think IB still takes the cake on both examples.


I agree that IB sounds good but I actually preferred the Norrland trumpet between the two of them. It is likely the IB could sound better as Aaron does amazing things with it.


----------



## Markrs

morganwable said:


> What's everyone's currently favored IB reverb setup?


I haven't messed with reverbs that much but like you I enjoy using Seventh Heaven. I also use R4 and Nimbus.

I also Inspirata personal version, which is a complex convolution reverb, but haven't really used it yet. Those that do use it rate it highly. This one could work will with Infinite Series as you can do placement with it, but I don't have these libraries to test it with.






Inspirata Reverb from Inspired Acoustics!


Hey friends and colleagues! I hope all is well with you during these times! I just saw this and wanted to reach out so that you'll get a copy of the Lite edition while it's available! Sign up and follow the instructions! https://inspiredacoustics.com/en/products/inspirata-workstation#overview




vi-control.net





I have EW spaces 2 and Waves IR-L, both of which come with a lot of convolution room options, but haven't really used either.


----------



## muziksculp

Markrs said:


> Rather interesting comparison of solo trumpet libraries with Infinite Brass as one of the comparisons. The results showed how good the free Norrland Solo Trumpet. Infinite Brass trumpet sounded okay but the reviewer was keen for some advice to get a better sound from it.
> 
> On previous reviews of Infinite Brass he seems really keen to like it but struggles to get a sound and performance he likes from it.



CSB sounded the best timbre wise, and the most realistic to my ears.

I was surprised how bad CineBrass Solo Trumpet sounded. The other more hybrid libraries sounded good, but lacked the rich timbre of a trumpet, and had a lack of a defined/focused sound, kind of mushy sounding attacks.


----------



## Markrs

muziksculp said:


> I was surprised how bad CineBrass Solo Trumpet sounded.


Totally agree, it sounded pretty bad. I wasn't that keen on Sample modelling Trumpet either.


----------



## muziksculp

Markrs said:


> I wasn't that keen on Sample modelling Trumpet either.


I heard way much better demos of Sample Modeling Trumpet than what he showed, so I wouldn't judge it based on his demos.


----------



## Markrs

muziksculp said:


> I heard way much better demos of Sample Modeling Trumpet than what he showed, so I wouldn't judge it based on his demos.


The reviewer is pretty honest about his difficulty with getting modelled Instruments to sound good, so I think you might be right that others might be able to get more from it.


----------



## muziksculp

Markrs said:


> The reviewer is pretty honest about his difficulty with getting modelled Instruments to sound good, so I think you might be right that others might be able to get more from it.


Yes, plus it takes a good amount of practice, using a Breath Controller, or other types of controllers to make the Sample Modeling Trumpet come alive, the difference in results is Huge ! I doubt he used a BController, or other multi-CC able controllers to perform the Trumpet V3 in real time. 

So, It's not just the reverb that makes a difference, it is the performance. Sample Modeling Instruments are not regular sample libraries.


----------



## Zanshin

Returning to reverb related talk for a moment...

Mir Pro and the room packs are on sale, and can be demo'd (provided you have a dongle, or can VSL software be machine lic'd now?). I played with PBJ and Mir all last weekend and preferred Mir with a tail sweetener over PBJ (Mir comes with Mir-acle but I like Liquidsonics/Valhalla/Relab for extra tail).

PBJ is really good, I just felt like Mir had that extra something (psycho-acoustic magic haha) that makes it feel like it's in a physical space especially when you have a number of instruments playing in it. I do think I will end up buying Breeze, it does the fantasy stuff very well.

Aaron's IRs are excellent too, but I want a more complete solution I can throw other things into as well. Very happy with Mir and room pack 2 so far (studios and scoring spaces).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

The comparison is ok, but he's not showing either of the libraries in their best light, but almost all comparisons are flawed in some way or another.

One obvious thing is that he's using IB 1.5 so not the latest and improved version. The way he's mixed (or not mixed) SM is not very flattering. CSB is still a beast just don't like the timbral difference between the shorts and longs, it's quite jarring at times. Norrland sounds quite good. There are just a few resonances that I really don't like in the sound which seem to be within the trumpet itself, meaning it moves with the pitch so they are not the easiest to tame.


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> *What's everyone's currently favored IB reverb setup?*


Depends on the style, but I like using the built in convolution for my ERs then add a tail reverb with little to no ERs included. 

Some combinations I’ve liked:
Studio or Bersa IR with Chameleon as an insert running tails I built from AROOF
Bersa IR with NI RC48 random large hall on a send
Studio IR on mix mic 5 with Precedence + Breeze on each instrument as an insert using a modified version of Berlin Hall with a 0.75-0.9 length decay to push them back plus one of the reverbs below for the tail

Tail verbs: 
- Seventh Heaven Boston Hall or Sandors Hall with little to no early reflections and a decay time of 2.5 seconds or so on a send
- Neoverb using the AI assistant when I just want the feel of the reverb and keep it largely out of the way. I’ll typically combine the large and medium chamber algos and minimize ERs

I’m still finding new reverb combos I like every day, but these have been the most useful thus far.


----------



## Denkii

Something is very off in his first CSB Demo.
Whenever it switches between shorts and longs, the tail is completely gone.


----------



## shawnsingh

Markrs said:


> Rather interesting comparison of solo trumpet libraries with Infinite Brass as one of the comparisons. The results showed how good the free Norrland Solo Trumpet. Infinite Brass trumpet sounded okay but the reviewer was keen for some advice to get a better sound from it.
> 
> On previous reviews of Infinite Brass he seems really keen to like it but struggles to get a sound and performance he likes from it.




I do have some ideas how the Infinite can sound better. Maybe some of these suggestions could also apply to the other libraries, but I didn't really scrutinize as carefully. Also, my home studio is currently packed away for several more months, so I apologize I can't offer my own take on this Mahler passage with Infinite. I think it would be nice if I could back up my suggestions with an actual example, concrete examples really help to make the discussion more constructive/concrete/friendly/sincerely open for debate, so I will plan to do that when I can unpack again =)

Also - IB 1.6 had come out just a few days before I had to pack my studio away, only enough time to try it once and worry that some of my old 1.5 tricks need to be altered to get the same results with 1.6. I hope that all my previous tricks are still possible in 1.6 (or will speak up if needed). So anyway, the point is, my thoughts here are from what I remember about using 1.5.


The initial staccato is supposed to sound like double or triple tonguing. I feel like real double/triple tonguing will have slightly more space between notes. Of course, for faster repeated notes, that means the notes need to be even shorter.
I think the CC dynamics can all be reduced a notch, and the top 117-127 only to be touched as part of rounded attacks or gently dipped into that upper max on sustains
CC programming on the sustain notes seems to be mostly ramp-down shapes. I think the ramp-down can be nice as part of the performer's "release" for many of the sustain notes, but the sustained tone itself could be less ramp-down. For sure, the CC should gradually vary through a sustain, but it can "waver" and slightly arc upwards some parts as well.
I like to think of attacks as both note velocity and the choice of shape of CC curve. I think this is especially useful when trying to have a lower note-velocity soft attack, sometimes you still need it to be more of a rounded accent, which the lower note velocity won't do, but that's where the CC curve comes in. So personally I think of it as "note velocity for immediate-ness of attacks, along with one kind of accent or soft variation" and "CC curve for sculpting the latter half of the attack, to make it more rounded, or to make it more truncated, or to just make it normal, etc". I think more CC shaping on the attacks would help here! This is also where that extra headroom of staying below 115-117 can help - for rounded attacks you can dip into that last bit of power briefly and that makes it sound more natural.
At the very beginning, should be pianissimo on a lower register of the trumpet, from what little I know about trumpet, I think this does hit the limits of what a human performer can do, and a very slight pitch-bend effect that emulates the player being slightly out of tune (read, VERY slight, not glaringly obvious at all) often adds to the feeling of struggling to push a consistent column of air that will resonate the trumpet but still be so quiet.
For fortissimo staccato notes, I found that CC value and note velocity both still affect the way the note sounds, and so if you don't program the CC to be high on those short notes too, they may sound weaker than intended. I know a lot of people would prefer if the library could somehow be more intelligent to know that staccato should only be controlled by note velocity, but the problem is then that requires the library to compromise the flexibility of getting different note attacks on non-staccato notes, too. I'd prefer to keep that flexibility and so I had no problem with having to program CC in midi post-editing to get the right sound for staccato notes. I think experimenting with CC levels on the short notes on this Mahler passage can help too.
Dynamics CC sculpting in IB 1.5 had a lot of effect on all three aspects of each note: attack, sustain, and release. I think a lot more character on the medium-length notes (i.e. portato ones, the weighty staccato ones on the triplet, that aren't as short as double-tounging) can be achieved by micro tweaking CC curves for each note. I know it might feel painstaking to do that, but it's a level of expressiveness that most sample-based libraries just can't do, so I don't see it as a disadvantage of IB necessarily, but it does certainly enable to really get the exact performance you want from the library.
Cheers!


----------



## shawnsingh

Also, this post, I had shared a lyrical solo trumpet example - https://vi-control.net/community/th...olo-flute-and-solo-trumpet-with-piano.102813/. I had some great feedback about the vibrato sounding too regular, I had fixed it in a newer version but that post links to the old version.


----------



## Denkii

Please link the new versions!
That piece was great!

PS: And let us know if you did the new version with IB 1.6


----------



## DID CHOI

muziksculp said:


> Yes, plus it takes a good amount of practice, using a Breath Controller, or other types of controllers to make the Sample Modeling Trumpet come alive, the difference in results is Huge ! I doubt he used a BController, or other multi-CC able controllers to perform the Trumpet V3 in real time.
> 
> So, It's not just the reverb that makes a difference, it is the performance. Sample Modeling Instruments are not regular sample libraries.


I did not use a breath controller in this review, but have used one for other projects and didn't find the results much better either. I'm a clarinet player so maybe my airflow just doesn't match the controller, no matter how I calibrate it. 


Jonathan Moray said:


> The comparison is ok, but he's not showing either of the libraries in their best light, but almost all comparisons are flawed in some way or another.
> 
> One obvious thing is that he's using IB 1.5 so not the latest and improved version. The way he's mixed (or not mixed) SM is not very flattering. CSB is still a beast just don't like the timbral difference between the shorts and longs, it's quite jarring at times. Norrland sounds quite good. There are just a few resonances that I really don't like in the sound which seem to be within the trumpet itself, meaning it moves with the pitch so they are not the easiest to tame.


Thanks for the comment, I guess I didn't update IB in a while since I haven't used it for a while. SM I honestly can't get a good sound. I don't have Altiverb, so I'm relying on Space Designer with a Todd AO reverb. But what ever I do EQ wise, in the settings of Kontakt, reverb-wise has not been satisfying. Tips appreciated.


----------



## DID CHOI

Denkii said:


> Something is very off in his first CSB Demo.
> Whenever it switches between shorts and longs, the tail is completely gone.


That seems to happen with articulation sets or keyswitching. If it were on a separate track, then I wouldn't have happened. But also, I haven't much issues with that with more added reverb and being in a mix.


----------



## DID CHOI

shawnsingh said:


> I do have some ideas how the Infinite can sound better. Maybe some of these suggestions could also apply to the other libraries, but I didn't really scrutinize as carefully. Also, my home studio is currently packed away for several more months, so I apologize I can't offer my own take on this Mahler passage with Infinite. I think it would be nice if I could back up my suggestions with an actual example, concrete examples really help to make the discussion more constructive/concrete/friendly/sincerely open for debate, so I will plan to do that when I can unpack again =)
> 
> Also - IB 1.6 had come out just a few days before I had to pack my studio away, only enough time to try it once and worry that some of my old 1.5 tricks need to be altered to get the same results with 1.6. I hope that all my previous tricks are still possible in 1.6 (or will speak up if needed). So anyway, the point is, my thoughts here are from what I remember about using 1.5.
> 
> 
> The initial staccato is supposed to sound like double or triple tonguing. I feel like real double/triple tonguing will have slightly more space between notes. Of course, for faster repeated notes, that means the notes need to be even shorter.
> I think the CC dynamics can all be reduced a notch, and the top 117-127 only to be touched as part of rounded attacks or gently dipped into that upper max on sustains
> CC programming on the sustain notes seems to be mostly ramp-down shapes. I think the ramp-down can be nice as part of the performer's "release" for many of the sustain notes, but the sustained tone itself could be less ramp-down. For sure, the CC should gradually vary through a sustain, but it can "waver" and slightly arc upwards some parts as well.
> I like to think of attacks as both note velocity and the choice of shape of CC curve. I think this is especially useful when trying to have a lower note-velocity soft attack, sometimes you still need it to be more of a rounded accent, which the lower note velocity won't do, but that's where the CC curve comes in. So personally I think of it as "note velocity for immediate-ness of attacks, along with one kind of accent or soft variation" and "CC curve for sculpting the latter half of the attack, to make it more rounded, or to make it more truncated, or to just make it normal, etc". I think more CC shaping on the attacks would help here! This is also where that extra headroom of staying below 115-117 can help - for rounded attacks you can dip into that last bit of power briefly and that makes it sound more natural.
> At the very beginning, should be pianissimo on a lower register of the trumpet, from what little I know about trumpet, I think this does hit the limits of what a human performer can do, and a very slight pitch-bend effect that emulates the player being slightly out of tune (read, VERY slight, not glaringly obvious at all) often adds to the feeling of struggling to push a consistent column of air that will resonate the trumpet but still be so quiet.
> For fortissimo staccato notes, I found that CC value and note velocity both still affect the way the note sounds, and so if you don't program the CC to be high on those short notes too, they may sound weaker than intended. I know a lot of people would prefer if the library could somehow be more intelligent to know that staccato should only be controlled by note velocity, but the problem is then that requires the library to compromise the flexibility of getting different note attacks on non-staccato notes, too. I'd prefer to keep that flexibility and so I had no problem with having to program CC in midi post-editing to get the right sound for staccato notes. I think experimenting with CC levels on the short notes on this Mahler passage can help too.
> Dynamics CC sculpting in IB 1.5 had a lot of effect on all three aspects of each note: attack, sustain, and release. I think a lot more character on the medium-length notes (i.e. portato ones, the weighty staccato ones on the triplet, that aren't as short as double-tounging) can be achieved by micro tweaking CC curves for each note. I know it might feel painstaking to do that, but it's a level of expressiveness that most sample-based libraries just can't do, so I don't see it as a disadvantage of IB necessarily, but it does certainly enable to really get the exact performance you want from the library.
> Cheers!


Yeah, interesting advice. Thanks for taking the time to write it out. 
I think part of why I don't get a better sound might be in that I don't want to endlessly tweak things and that may be why I prefer the more traditionally sampled instruments. Those give me set attacks that are predictable and easier to learn, while IB or SM give too much control that I don't want to really bother with. 
But also the tone itself of those libraries are not as good out of the box either and require more mixing too..


----------



## Trash Panda

DID CHOI said:


> Yeah, interesting advice. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.
> I think part of why I don't get a better sound might be in that I don't want to endlessly tweak things and that may be why I prefer the more traditionally sampled instruments. Those give me set attacks that are predictable and easier to learn, while IB or SM give too much control that I don't want to really bother with.
> But also the tone itself of those libraries are not as good out of the box either and require more mixing too..


IB/WW doesn’t require much tweaking once you learn how they respond to the trinity of note length, velocity and CC1, but they do have a higher initial learning curve than traditional sample libraries. 

I’d recommend looking at the demo pages of the AV website and download the MIDI files that are available for some of the demos. It makes a night and day difference in results.


----------



## Denkii

I agree with panda.
Where others offer instant gratification, IB/IW comes quite delayed. But once it hits you it is very hard to go back to a conventional workflow with keyswitches. At least I find it annoying whenever I use SCS and the like.


----------



## muziksculp

DID CHOI said:


> I did not use a breath controller in this review, but have used one for other projects and didn't find the results much better either. I'm a clarinet player so maybe my airflow just doesn't match the controller, no matter how I calibrate it.


imho. the magic sauce when using breath controller, or hand gesture controller, such as the Leap Motion, is being able to control more than one CC parameter at the same time, at different rates, and values, this is what I feel makes a Huge difference, If you are just adjusting i.e. expression using a Breath Controller, and depending on how well you have it calibrated, and how sensitive it is, you can obtain some very good results, but modulating more than once CC in real time, is the magic ingredient.


----------



## DJiLAND

Oxytoxine said:


> So, to cut this short: Do you find that using the internal studio hall plus MIR as e.g. in your example sounds realistic / fits well with the other Synchron instruments? Or even shorter: MIR = recommended?


Sorry for the late reply! I was sick during the holidays. (Not that virus haha)
I think others have already given good enough answers. My guess is that using a Close mic on the Studio IR doesn't seem to completely turn the IR off. (I checked this in the detailed options of the patch) But this alone is super dry and works well enough. I think this sounds drier than the VSL's VI instruments. Unless the instrument is recorded in an anechoic chamber, it will not be possible to sound any drier than this.
As for the MIR and other syncron instruments and mixes - I don't think it's a perfect tone. Since the recording method and tone are different, the tone is a little different even if you put it in MIR. A slightly unusual feeling, in my opinion, with the nuances of a closed mic being reproduced as a hall sound. But they can be used together enough, and with a bit of research, the Wet/Dry sliders and EQ can be improved enough. Above all, the convenience of MIR is very powerful. Very 3D sound with a depth that resembles a real recording. Specifically, I'm using the MIR Pro for surround work. It's convenient.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

DID CHOI said:


> Thanks for the comment, I guess I didn't update IB in a while since I haven't used it for a while. SM I honestly can't get a good sound. I don't have Altiverb, so I'm relying on Space Designer with a Todd AO reverb. But what ever I do EQ wise, in the settings of Kontakt, reverb-wise has not been satisfying. Tips appreciated.


Yeah, it's a big complaint I often hear about SM and it's well-founded. SM is among the hardest instruments around to mix and a lot of people here just want to compose and focus on the music, not the mixing. That's the same reason most people still like traditional libraries because they are "easier" to use. Want marcato? Activate the marcato key-switch and press a note. Done. Want longs with vibrato? Activate the long vib key-switch and play a note. Done. And you know that whatever articulation you chose will be correct for the instrument without any editing since it's a recording of a person actually playing those notes.

But if you like to have more control modelled and semi-modelled is the only way to go and after a while, you get used to the workflow and it's not much slower than traditional and faster in a lot of cases -- especially if you're a perfectionist.

On to mixing SM. It's mostly experimentation to find what works for you. I usually tame the high-end and barely let any of the dry signal through the reverb instead I use the early reflection to act more as the "direct/er" signal. Not sure if that's possible with Space Designer (don't think so, at least with any real control). Altiverb would probably make the mixing process much easier for placement.


----------



## DJiLAND

Zanshin said:


> I keep trying to stay away from MIR, I really liked your demo though - so going to demo MIR extensively this weekend. The results I got with some brief tests this morning though were great. I used a single MIR instance for IB trumpets a3, and wow that might be the most cohesive they've sounded to me.
> 
> Is there a update for IW with mono compatibility? I just have the original 2.0 release.


This is my first project with Mir Pro. So, there is a disappointment due to inexperienced use. I think I put too much extra late reverb through a separate plug-in. and the horn could be improved with a little EQ.

IW 2.0 doesn't have mono compatibility, but I'm just using it in mono. I hope it gets updated. The flute tone needs to be improved as well. (Very oboe-like..)


----------



## DID CHOI

So many people pointed out that the Norrland Trumpet had the straight mute on it, my bad, but I took the opportunity to also get IB 1.6 and play with the CCs a little more. Here's the updated video:


----------



## DID CHOI

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yeah, it's a big complaint I often hear about SM and it's well-founded. SM is among the hardest instruments around to mix and a lot of people here just want to compose and focus on the music, not the mixing. That's the same reason most people still like traditional libraries because they are "easier" to use. Want marcato? Activate the marcato key-switch and press a note. Done. Want longs with vibrato? Activate the long vib key-switch and play a note. Done. And you know that whatever articulation you chose will be correct for the instrument without any editing since it's a recording of a person actually playing those notes.
> 
> But if you like to have more control modelled and semi-modelled is the only way to go and after a while, you get used to the workflow and it's not much slower than traditional and faster in a lot of cases -- especially if you're a perfectionist.
> 
> On to mixing SM. It's mostly experimentation to find what works for you. I usually tame the high-end and barely let any of the dry signal through the reverb instead I use the early reflection to act more as the "direct/er" signal. Not sure if that's possible with Space Designer (don't think so, at least with any real control). Altiverb would probably make the mixing process much easier for placement.


Yeah...Not too keen on spending about the same amount of money as the library itself on a reverb that might make it sound better. So SM is hard to use...


----------



## Jonathan Moray

DID CHOI said:


> Yeah...Not too keen on spending about the same amount of money as the library itself on a reverb that might make it sound better. So SM is hard to use...


Absolutely. As I said: some people really enjoy the art of mixing, others find it a chore and rather get on with the composing. The latter group often see no point in spending money on expensive plugins that are only for mixing.

Personally, I've spent a bit of time with Valhalla Room and quite like it. Not too expensive either. But you will have to put in the time to learn how to use it and that's often not something people want to spend time on.

Yes, without spending much on learning all of this (even if you're good at mixing it can be a very hard beast to handle), SM is definitely harder to use overall. IB much easier, and traditional libraries easier still.


----------



## DID CHOI

Jonathan Moray said:


> Absolutely. As I said: some people really enjoy the art of mixing, others find it a chore and rather get on with the composing. The latter group often see no point in spending money on expensive plugins that are only for mixing.
> 
> Personally, I've spent a bit of time with Valhalla Room and quite like it. Not too expensive either. But you will have to put in the time to learn how to use it and that's often not something people want to spend time on.
> 
> Yes, without spending much on learning all of this (even if you're good at mixing it can be a very hard beast to handle), SM is definitely harder to use overall. IB much easier, and traditional libraries easier still.


What kind of stuff have you tried in Valhalla Room? I tried some stuff there too, but found the Todd AO reverb still gave me the most decent results


----------



## muziksculp

DID CHOI said:


> So many people pointed out that the Norrland Trumpet had the straight mute on it, my bad, but I took the opportunity to also get IB 1.6 and play with the CCs a little more. Here's the updated video:



Hi @DID CHOI ,

Thanks for posting the updated video.  

The Norrland Trumpet sounds much better now, also the IB 1.6 sounds great. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Trash Panda

DID CHOI said:


> What kind of stuff have you tried in Valhalla Room? I tried some stuff there too, but found the Todd AO reverb still gave me the most decent results


I find best results when sticking to the presets that use the Chamber algorithm. With "cloudier" reverbs like Valhalla Room, I also find it better to keep the reverb send channel somewhere between -18 down to -23 dB. This is regardless of library used. For cleaner reverbs (Nimbus, Cinematic Rooms, etc.) you can get away with the reverb at a higher volume without muddying up the mix.


----------



## Bollen

Just my 2p, but the latest SM brass comes with its own IR that sits just as well as any of the VSL VI stuff. Before this update I used to insert a simple reverb (100% wet) using a dry studio room or similar and it would sit fine on anything... I generally prefer bone dry because then I can sit in any environment.


----------



## DID CHOI

Bollen said:


> Just my 2p, but the latest SM brass comes with its own IR that sits just as well as any of the VSL VI stuff. Before this update I used to insert a simple reverb (100% wet) using a dry studio room or similar and it would sit fine on anything... I generally prefer bone dry because then I can sit in any environment.


Wait, where is this? I know the Sample Modeling strings had their own IRs, but I have yet to see an update for the brass?


----------



## Bollen

You need to make sure you have v3:




Then you go to Controller 5: virtual soundstage an enable Early Reflections.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

DID CHOI said:


> What kind of stuff have you tried in Valhalla Room? I tried some stuff there too, but found the Todd AO reverb still gave me the most decent results


I've tried many things with the Valhalla Room. Anything in particular you're wondering about? I've used it to mix pretty much all the orchestral sections at one time or another (sample modelling brass for one), drums, synths, guitars, and so on.

Then, of course, it also comes down to different tastes. So if you don't like the sound of Valhalla Room, then it might not be the reverb for you.


----------



## DID CHOI

Bollen said:


> You need to make sure you have v3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you go to Controller 5: virtual soundstage an enable Early Reflections.


Ah that's what you meant. They're not really IRs that create ambience though. Just some early reflections. Haven't found them too useful apart from some better panning...


----------



## DID CHOI

Jonathan Moray said:


> I've tried many things with the Valhalla Room. Anything in particular you're wondering about? I've used it to mix pretty much all the orchestral sections at one time or another (sample modelling brass for one), drums, synths, guitars, and so on.
> 
> Then, of course, it also comes down to different tastes. So if you don't like the sound of Valhalla Room, then it might not be the reverb for you.


Just for getting a natural brass sound from SM I suppose. The tone just never gets to a nice brass tone in the way something like CSB would


----------



## Jonathan Moray

DID CHOI said:


> Just for getting a natural brass sound from SM I suppose. The tone just never gets to a nice brass tone in the way something like CSB would


That's true, and that's not something that will change for some time yet. No reverb currently on the market (that I know of) sounds as good as instruments (especially brass) recorded in a nice room. IB is really, really good but it's still not as real as the real deal. And SM is definitely on the harder end to get sounding natural, especially when trying to make it sound like a cohesive ensemble.

For me personally - and for many others in this thread it seems - the tone is less important and close enough where it's not a problem that outweighs the greatly improved playability and much, much smoother crossfade IB offers.


----------



## Bollen

DID CHOI said:


> Ah that's what you meant. They're not really IRs that create ambience though. Just some early reflections. Haven't found them too useful apart from some better panning...


I think you need to read the manual...


----------



## Oxytoxine

DJiLAND said:


> Sorry for the late reply! I was sick during the holidays. (Not that virus haha)
> I think others have already given good enough answers. My guess is that using a Close mic on the Studio IR doesn't seem to completely turn the IR off. (I checked this in the detailed options of the patch) But this alone is super dry and works well enough. I think this sounds drier than the VSL's VI instruments. Unless the instrument is recorded in an anechoic chamber, it will not be possible to sound any drier than this.
> As for the MIR and other syncron instruments and mixes - I don't think it's a perfect tone. Since the recording method and tone are different, the tone is a little different even if you put it in MIR. A slightly unusual feeling, in my opinion, with the nuances of a closed mic being reproduced as a hall sound. But they can be used together enough, and with a bit of research, the Wet/Dry sliders and EQ can be improved enough. Above all, the convenience of MIR is very powerful. Very 3D sound with a depth that resembles a real recording. Specifically, I'm using the MIR Pro for surround work. It's convenient.


Ouch, sad to hear you were sick - I hope that you are well recovered and healthy again! 

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences / impressions with MIR, super helpful 👍

I think I will give it a try, but on the other hand I start to realize that I am overcomplicating this positioning topic. The more fancy stuff I try the more I realize that just doing the positioning in the Infinite libs, choosing a hall that fits best with the other libs involved, and then gluing with an additional tail that approximately matches the length of the tails in the other libs sounds good or better in many situations. 

Also, I have started learning to do the positioning properly the oldschool way - I always feared that this must be very complicated and thus shied away from it, but the underling principles seem to be straightforward, and preliminary results are good. Found some great explanations and videos from Mr. Kaufmann on this topic - fantastic ressources. Also found the Hofa IQ-Verb, which seems to be really good, has four convo + 2 algorithmic verbs, many inbuilt effects that I have not seen in other reverbs, and especially an inbuilt positioning tool that seems to rival the other tools discussed in this thread as a one-stop solution. So I will first give this a proper try, then MIR, and then finally settle on one solution and... after going down this rabbit whole for too long finally focus on making music / composing again 

Thanks again for taking the time to type out your experiences. Best, Oxy


----------



## DID CHOI

Bollen said:


> I think you need to read the manual...


Interesting they call it an impulse response for the early reflections. I thought it was more modelled than using any sort of sampled IRs...
But the second picture you posted is referring to Kontakt's IRs, which are also not the best in my experience.


----------



## Bollen

DID CHOI said:


> is referring to Kontakt's IRs, which are also not the best in my experience.


Agreed...! Nothing like 7th Heaven to make things shine! But my point was that if you add this "extra" layer to the instrument, it's much easier to mix with other libraries.


----------



## Trash Panda

DID CHOI said:


> Interesting they call it an impulse response for the early reflections. I thought it was more modelled than using any sort of sampled IRs...
> But the second picture you posted is referring to Kontakt's IRs, which are also not the best in my experience.


The IRs in Infinite Brass are Aaron's own that he created from the three different venues and the various seating positions and microphones in this venues.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> The IRs in Infinite Brass are Aaron's own that he created from the three different venues and the various seating positions and microphones in this venues.


I believe they are talking about Sample Modeling, not Infinite.


----------



## scoplunk

Hi DID,
Thanks a lot for doing this great solo trumpet comparison. It's always interesting to hear these libraries head to head like this. I have a question, though. The IB Trumpet sounds strangely chorused. It doesn't sound at all like that over here. Is it possible you loaded a multi with more than one of the IB trumpets playing at the same time? It's very synthetic sounding compared to what I'm hearing on my system.


----------



## tabulius

Great discussion about placement and reverb tricks. I usually just use Bersa hall with 7th heaven tail.

Have anyone tried Eareverb 2 for IB? It is much cheaper option than MIR and rooms and stages addon.


----------



## Woodie1972

I haven't tried EAreverb 2 with IB, but did with other libraries. In my experience the studio settings are pretty good, the concert hall settings resulted in a muddy sound. Most of the time I use a simple tail like Roomworks, which gives me the best results. But I have to add to this that I'm not that good in Eq-ing and mixing (it's improving over time), so someone with better mixing skills might have another opinion.


----------



## Nando Florestan

To those doubting the ability of Sample Modeling to sound in an orchestra, take a look at this old YouTube channel.
Compare the tuba video with the Boston Pops recording of Jabba's theme. If you try this at home you'll really appreciate this.
And I doubt you can achieve this horn sound with anything else out there.


----------



## I like music

Can't share my friend's music. He is a professional, paid composer who literally threw in the SM brass instruments and used them with the Cubase's ReVerence reverb. A bit of EQ. Not much else.

They did sound A BIT up front but damn, they fit just fine with the HWO ...

I'm going to try to replicate and hopefully one day post. While I can't get them QUITE right (if you're searching for perfectly mixed, then I cannot help) but they can get close enough to sound good...


----------



## Mikro93

I'd like to hear some examples of the woodwinds in context, like some intimate chamber stuff. I've tried a search, here and on YouTube, but no luck.

Anyone could hook me up?


----------



## Nando Florestan

Mikro93 said:


> I'd like to hear some examples of the woodwinds in context


Not chamber music, but in this piece of mine all woodwinds and brass are Infinite.


----------



## Mikro93

Nando Florestan said:


> Not chamber music, but in this piece of mine all woodwinds and brass are Infinite.


Good stuff!


----------



## DID CHOI

scoplunk said:


> Hi DID,
> Thanks a lot for doing this great solo trumpet comparison. It's always interesting to hear these libraries head to head like this. I have a question, though. The IB Trumpet sounds strangely chorused. It doesn't sound at all like that over here. Is it possible you loaded a multi with more than one of the IB trumpets playing at the same time? It's very synthetic sounding compared to what I'm hearing on my system.


Hey, no it is definitely just the one instance. I agree it is a little synthetic sounding, which has been my gripe with it so far..Interesting you're getting different results


----------



## DID CHOI

Nando Florestan said:


> To those doubting the ability of Sample Modeling to sound in an orchestra, take a look at this old YouTube channel.
> Compare the tuba video with the Boston Pops recording of Jabba's theme. If you try this at home you'll really appreciate this.
> And I doubt you can achieve this horn sound with anything else out there.


Hey Nando, 

The tuba is my favourite SM instrument! 
But the first video you link to with the Trumpets with the Scoring stage IR just sounds like SM with an IR to me, not like an orchestral trumpet. I think part of that is in the legato transitions of SM. 

The horns in that example do sound quite good, but again have that kind of "stale" quality I find in SM...just in the tone itself. The way it's played is phenomenal I agree!


----------



## Nando Florestan

In the final stage of that video there's something missing to me, too. He focuses on showing that we must never allow the original sample to be heard at all -- all that passes through is "In A Room" with 100% mix. I think it's the playing that is poor, it doesn't sound like he's taken the time to ride any CCs. But the other videos show final results.

In final results we see that the SM Trumpet does have a bit of personality to it, sure, but so would any player. I hear that personality as a good thing especially if you are going for a London Symphony Orchestra sound. Compare with the beginning of "The Return Home". Wouldn't you think this was the SM trumpet, too?

By the way, I think the frequent close mics are one big reason we all love this soundtrack so much. I think if you could isolate brass instruments from real recordings, you'd find they sound mostly ugly, too -- it's the combination of uglies that becomes glorious.

Speaking of which, one thing I have been able to do with SM is to use their partial shaping feature to approximate a specific sound from a specific favorite track. This simply wouldn't work with a simple EQ.


----------



## Jamus

I'm getting dangerously close to purchasing SM Strings 😂

Snap out of it man! Infinite is like this close 🤏


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> I'm getting dangerously close to purchasing SM Strings 😂
> 
> Snap out of it man! Infinite is like this close 🤏


@aaronventure - is Jamus correct?


----------



## Akora

I like music said:


> @aaronventure - is Jamus correct?


----------



## decredis

Jamus said:


> Infinite is like this close 🤏


To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand 
And *Eternity* in an hour.


----------



## I like music

Akora said:


>


Ah crap, the gif won't display on my machine!


----------



## Bollen

Nando Florestan said:


> Wouldn't you think this was the SM trumpet, too?


 whoa!!! Damn man it does! Crazy, I'm so accustomed to SM trumpet that to hear that gave me like a vertigo feeling...


----------



## Gingham Jones

If anyone's interested, I just made a video walking through all the sampled instruments I used in an experimental rock song from an album I recently released. Aaron Venture's IB made some wonderful contributions!


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> @aaronventure - is Jamus correct?



I'm convinced that when Infinite Strings drops, all of my budgeting and careful management of my finances will go out the window.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Hey all-- quick question:

Just getting around to having time to install 1.6 (brass). The instructions to update say just delete the old one.... so you basically have to rebuild your multi from scratch? or am I missing something here


----------



## shawnsingh

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Hey all-- quick question:
> 
> Just getting around to having time to install 1.6 (brass). The instructions to update say just delete the old one.... so you basically have to rebuild your multi from scratch? or am I missing something here


I've always just installed them in separate directories so that I didn't have to delete the old versions... Hopefully I'm not making a mistake that would make new versions work in a weird way?


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

right but that part aside, essentially I need to just replace each patch and start over remapping things etc...?


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Gingham Jones said:


> If anyone's interested, I just made a video walking through all the sampled instruments I used in an experimental rock song from an album I recently released. Aaron Venture's IB made some wonderful contributions!



How do you like that Spark amp?


----------



## Gingham Jones

MorphineNoir said:


> How do you like that Spark amp?


You know, I just got it yesterday and I love it! Obviously it doesn't sound as big and clear as a full size amp but it doesn't sound as small and thin as I expected. I wish it had a little more high-end is the only complaint I have. I really wanted to get "out of the box" though and I found this box at a good price. Lots of amp options and you can play music through Bluetooth too. I'm very impressed.


----------



## shawnsingh

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> right but that part aside, essentially I need to just replace each patch and start over remapping things etc...?


That's what I've done, yes... I think some of the configuration can be done more quickly by using the pre configured midi controls, i.e. there's midi controls for the mic positions and which venue. Unfortunately, with 1.4 and 1.5 I had some cases where venue doesn't change properly when you change all tracks at the same time. Not sure if that's a kontakt problem or something Aaron can fix. And if you intend to use midi learn, it still does require going through each new instrument and adjusting it.

At the end of the day, I think it's not too painful, it may take just an hour to setup midi learning and a basic mix you like, then you can save each nki (of course keep Aaron's originals as backups), and that would mostly be a one time cost to update your workflow or to update to a new version.


----------



## scoplunk

DID CHOI said:


> Hey, no it is definitely just the one instance. I agree it is a little synthetic sounding, which has been my gripe with it so far..Interesting you're getting different results


I just wanted to follow up on this and make sure I wasn't completely imagining this, so I made a quick demo. I tried to duplicate your settings and then played your legato demo. To make it easy to compare, I put the audio from your demo immediately after mine. I really notice a strong phasing sound at the beginning of the second phrase in your demo, but all of your demo has some kind of chorus sound to it. I don't hear that kind of thing in my demo.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about the basic tone or whether or not they find IB difficult to play or control, I just feel like something went wrong with IB in the video and wanted to hear a version that sounds like what I hear on my system.

View attachment ib legato examples.mp3


----------



## shawnsingh

I was wondering about that phasing too... Infinite had been the most phase free of all libraries I've ever tried - actually yet another reason it became hard to go back to other libraries, even ones that had minimal phase problems it just became too noticeable.


----------



## aaronventure

DID CHOI said:


> Hey, no it is definitely just the one instance. I agree it is a little synthetic sounding, which has been my gripe with it so far..Interesting you're getting different results


Are you on 1.6? In 1.5, a couple of users were experiencing consistent phasing on their systems, and in 1.6 I deployed a fix which permanently fixed this. There should be no phasing whatsoever in 1.6.

If you have, did you leave 1.6 as a separate folder? If you just overwrote the old folder, you have to manually replace all the patches in your projects and templates, since the Kontakt patches are stored in your project files and are not automatically refreshed (they only automatically pull the script and assets, which is just a part of the equation).


----------



## Mikro93

Folks,

Today is a big day.

After months, nay, YEARS of browsing and pondering and listening and, and, and...

I finally got Infinite Woodwinds.

Stay tuned.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Mikro93 said:


> Folks,
> 
> Today is a big day.
> 
> After months, nay, YEARS of browsing and pondering and listening and, and, and...
> 
> I finally got Infinite Woodwinds.
> 
> Stay tuned.


Let's hope these winds will change your life! 😁


----------



## Mikro93

I mentionned the Cuphead soundtrack in a gaming thread. Here's a very quick tutti from the track Floral Fury, using Infinite Woodwinds, and Wavesfactory Sharine and Samba Drums.

EDIT: V2, slightly different mix, note length adjustments, random note start, percussion intro.

EDIT: Added V3, in the original key (a fourth higher, my bad). RAH I wanna hear it with brass. Why u do this to me, Aaron

EDIT (I'd like it to be the last one, but it won't): there's probably more to be done for realism, I'll look into it later!


----------



## obey

Marvelous!


----------



## Mikro93

Okay, feedback time!

This is after a few hours of playing with IW and writing a couple of tracks.

I'm running Kontakt 6 latest version, Ableton Live 10 Suite, on my new, mid-range gaming laptop (i5 10something, 8 GB of RAM, samples on an external SSD).

The goodies!​- The instruments are very, and I mean, very expressive. IW is living up to its reputation - it's like writing with real players. I would be reminded of moments in my life when I was playing in an orchestra, and the conductor would stop and give instructions to some players. It feels a bit like that: "make it more of a bell sound", "give it a shorter attack", "make it breathe", "c'mon, get into it, this is not band camp", and with a combination of note length, velocity and CC1, you try and get there. And there are so many subtleties and nuances that IW allows, and this a proper achievement, not to mention a technical prowess.
- The random aspects of the expression makes it so that IW can pull off ostinatos and repeating patterns that any other library I own would, at best, struggle with. See example track below!
- Every woodwind you might think of.
- Very lightweight, easy on the RAM, which is amazing given the sound.
- The close sounds are just. so. good. Because they're just so clinically perfect, for the better or worse, getting a close sound is no problem at all. And that's such a hard quality to pull off for a sample library, especially for woodwinds.

The baddies!​- For all of the goodies, I feel like there is a compromise, which I was aware of before buying, so no bad surprise for me: the tone is not always there (see the ranking below). I'll mention the saxophones, and the flute. I've seen that the flute sound is effectively made of several components, and I've tried adjusting the tone of the noise for example, but I'm not there yet. Aaron has proven to be very active with his update policy, which is great, and he did mention having plenty of plans. I would be wary of a bad case of "waiting for the next update", though. I'd prefer not to rely on that, so for the time being, I'll do with what I have: a very, very nice collection with IW, the ability to click on the wrench icon (but with great powers etc. etc.), and other sample libraries if I need a more convincing tone here and there.
- I feel like everything is slightly slurred all the time - I would enjoy the option of a much faster legato transition, maybe velocity-based? Maybe I could dig under the hood a bit for that. The legato is quite nice, though, especially given that it's scripted. EDIT: I think that saying that the legato is "quite nice" is not giving it the merit it deserves. The legato is actually great 
- Sometimes, the attacks cannot be snappy enough, for my taste. But as one of my music teacher once said, "there is a whole universe in a baritone saxophone's attack". So, no sweat if a sample library doesn't have whole universes in it 
- The room tones are a bit difficult to play with. I usually find that, if I want a big hall sound, I'm not happy with the default patches, but they make a nice starting point. Usually, the close mic makes it more difficult to place the instrument in a room that I would feel convincing. YMMV.
- There is a LOT of low-end, and that sometimes makes the instrument sound a bit synthetic. I've had to remove the low-end quite a lot, through multiband compression or EQs. And at the same time, it's better that way than not having enough low-end, and I'm happy with it.


The buggies! (Aaron, hit me up if you need any more details)​- I've had my bass flute suffer from an Organ SyndromeTM: out of seemingly nowhere (I should look into it, but it happened several times), it wouldn't react to the Dynamic fader anymore, or CC1, or play any vibrato at all. The solutions I've found so far are to reboot Ableton, or reopen the instrument (but you have to get your settings back).
- Hanging notes galore - that actually doesn't bother me much.
- Not sure if it's a bug, but I would have very some noticeable pitch randomness even with the pitch accuracy to the max, more than I would expect from a professionnal player. But it usually doesn't sound bad in the mix.

The ranking! (Tone-wise)​Top Tier:​- Bass Flute (yes yes yes)
- Bass Clarinet
- Bassoon

High Tier:​- Oboe (and I know others might disagree)
- Clarinet

Mid Tier:​- Piccolo (pretty good still)
- Alto Flute (lots of potential)
- Baritone Sax (some stuff can be done with it, even though I find it lacks the attacks we could expect from a real baritone)

Low Tier:​- Flute (the tone is not there yet).
- Basically all other saxes, unfortunately. And in these saxes, the higher the worse.

No Tier (haven't tried them enough):​- Bass Oboe
- English Horn
- Contrabassoon
- Contrabass Clarinet

*Dungarees Overall*​
Infinite Woodwinds is, and I don't say it lightly, a game changer for me. The expressivity is top notch, the library is lightweight, and the tone is 90% there - and I don't mean that all instruments are 90% convincing: some are solid 100% for me, others not so much. So there's plenty to write convincing stuff! I've been able to write this little snippet (see attached) that no other library that I know of could make come to life. Expressivity makes it possible to make a track more convicing than with a classic sample library. It's all about the suspension of disbelief (second time I use this expression here today).

The downside of that is that your tracks will only sound as good as you can make them. I know, it's a bit of a tautology, but bear with me: if you play an arc patch from a regular sample library, you play back an expressive note, which is recorded from an experienced player in a great room, and it will sound good. None of that easy stuff with IW: you're the player. Don't be happy with a first take, don't use the default patches and mixes, don't use the built-in vibrato settings: your tracks deserve better. You can make them sound just the way they should sound, but you have to put in the work, use your ears, your concert memories and what you know from an actual woodwind section. It will be worth it. And I say that without having applied all of that to my demonstration track, so a V2 (EDIT: V3) should happen.

When I write music with a library, I usually like playing to the samples, and I got decent at that. But here, what to do? No legato crossfades, no sample sticking out, no release issue? That allows me to focus on the music, in a very different state of mind: what IW does well, it does amazingly. And for the rest, I just won't go there. It's like an on/off switch: either I can use it for I want, or I just won't. There's no bending the hard parts. For example: I love the bass clarinet, and I feel like I can make anything I want with it. But I don't like the soprano saxophone, and there's probably not much I would do with it that would satisfy me. It's a difficult thing to explain, and I hadn't read about it before.

I feel like most of the users here are placing the instruments in the bigger spaces, but I find even more impressive what can be done with the Studio IR. This is an absolute jewel for intimate music, and definitely the context for which I would recommend IW the most.

In my opinion, it is not a one-ends-all library, but we are so, so darn close to that.

Aaron has made it clear that he has great plans for the whole series, and a desire to refine it to make it the ultimate weapon - I can't wait to see what you have in mind  And the fact that you have achieved so much on your own is absolutely mind-blowing to me!

In the meantime, I'm really, really pleased with I have so far.

Well, almost.

Because, well, you know, there's Infinite Brass, and I don't have that.


----------



## doctoremmet

Mikro93 said:


> Because, well, you know, there's Infinite Brass, and I don't have that.


You will though.


----------



## Mikro93

doctoremmet said:


> You will though.


That is very generous of you 

(Even though I got the EDU pricing)


----------



## doctoremmet

Mikro93 said:


> That is very generous of you
> 
> (Even though I got the EDU pricing)


If you are EVER in a real crunch financially, I’d gift it to you without the blinking of an eye. Because you are a cool composer and I respect your work.


----------



## Mikro93

doctoremmet said:


> If you are EVER in a real crunch financially, I’d gift it to you without the blinking of an eye. Because you are a cool composer and I respect your work.


That goes straight to my heart, Temme  If I ever am in a real crunch financially, I'll focus on rent and food, and using the libraries I have


----------



## doctoremmet

Mikro93 said:


> That goes straight to my heart, Temme  If I ever am in a real crunch financially, I'll focus on rent and food, and using the libraries I have


If you need brass, you know where to find me pal.


----------



## obey

I feel like I'm watching a shot of Poirot's car winding it's way down an English countryside on the way to a reluctant acceptance to appear as a guest of honor somewhere only to stumble upon yet ANOTHER murder. Que horrible! (I dig majorly)


----------



## HereGiam

Mikro93 said:


> - Every woodwind you might think of.


I'd really love a couple of basset horns.


----------



## Tag

Mikro93 said:


> I would enjoy the option of a much faster legato transition, maybe velocity-based?


Not sure how you mean it, but here in Aaron Infinite instruments you can control the legato speed by velocity. Is the fastest legato still too slow for you maybe? Is this what you meant? I mean yes, you edited your post there, but still I am wondering! :D




Mikro93 said:


> The room tones are a bit difficult to play with. I usually find that, if I want a big hall sound, I'm not happy with the default patches, but they make a nice starting point. Usually, the close mic makes it more difficult to place the instrument in a room that I would feel convincing. YMMV.


Just my two cent here: I love to only use the studio room with raher close mics, also combined IRs to save resources and then use ValhallaRoom for positioning my instruments in the room. Works great for me, though.




Mikro93 said:


> I've had my bass flute suffer from an Organ SyndromeTM: out of seemingly nowhere (I should look into it, but it happened several times), it wouldn't react to the Dynamic fader anymore, or CC1, or play any vibrato at all. The solutions I've found so far are to reboot Ableton, or reopen the instrument (but you have to get your settings back).


Maybe try to click the exclamation mark in Kontakt to let the script reset next time. This way you shouldn't lose anything.




Mikro93 said:


> The downside of that is that your tracks will only sound as good as you can make them. I know, it's a bit of a tautology, but bear with me: if you play an arc patch from a regular sample library, you play back an expressive note, which is recorded from an experienced player in a great room, and it will sound good. None of that easy stuff with IW: you're the player. Don't be happy with a first take, don't use the default patches and mixes, don't use the built-in vibrato settings: your tracks deserve better. You can make them sound just the way they should sound, but you have to put in the work, use your ears, your concert memories and what you know from an actual woodwind section. It will be worth it. And I say that without having applied all of that to my demonstration track, so a V2 (EDIT: V3) should happen.


I record my MIDI lines always live by recording notes and velocity together with dynamic (via mod) and vibrato (food pedal) simultaneously. I get really good result for me often times without the need to alter too much afterwards. So in the end I find it funny what you wrote, yet it might be true in some cases. Maybe I also have a different standard than you, haha! :D




Mikro93 said:


> Because, well, you know, there's Infinite Brass, and I don't have that.


Would totally love to see what you would write about that then! And thanks for this big post. Loved to read it - I also love to read that you stayed critical from time to time and did not write "only the good stuff"! (=

Ps: Really nice tune you attached there! <3


----------



## Mikro93

Tag said:


> Not sure how you mean it, but here in Aaron Infinite instruments you can control the legato speed by velocity. Is the fastest legato still too slow for you maybe? Is this what you meant? I mean yes, you edited your post there, but still I am wondering! :D


I'll go back to check, just in case, but I'm pretty sure I thought the fastest legato speed (with the highest velocity) was still slurred to my ears, and I would love the possibility of a more on/off legato 



Tag said:


> Just my two cent here: I love to only use the studio room with raher close mics, also combined IRs to save resources and then use ValhallaRoom for positioning my instruments in the room. Works great for me, though.


Cool stuff!
I'll look into it. I use ValhallaRoom and NI Raum for my reverbs. But I felt like the stereo image with Aaron's IRs was pretty cool 



Tag said:


> Maybe try to click the exclamation mark in Kontakt to let the script reset next time. This way you shouldn't lose anything.


Good idea! Thanks!



Tag said:


> I record my MIDI lines always live by recording notes and velocity together with dynamic (via mod) and vibrato (food pedal) simultaneously. I get really good result for me often times without the need to alter too much afterwards. So in the end I find it funny what you wrote, yet it might be true in some cases. Maybe I also have a different standard than you, haha! :D


Maybe we have different standards, or maybe you got good at it  Anywhere I can hear some of your Infinite tracks?



Tag said:


> Would totally love to see what you would write about that then! And thanks for this big post. Loved to read it - I also love to read that you stayed critical from time to time and did not write "only the good stuff"! (=


Thank you very much  It was important to me to try and be critical, make it a helpful post, as others have been useful before me 

Cheers!


----------



## Tag

Mikro93 said:


> was still slurred to my ears


Eventually I know what you mean. Never disturbed me that much after all, hehe.




Mikro93 said:


> or maybe you got good at it


Hehe. :D




Mikro93 said:


> Anywhere I can hear some of your Infinite tracks?


I just searched through my pieces catalogue and mabye these pieces, which are max ~ 1 year old, have a good usage of Infinite Wood&Brass:

https://werke.tagirijus.de/audio/2021/manuel_senfft_-_it_comes.mp3 (&gt;&gt;&gt; It Comes)
https://werke.tagirijus.de/audio/2020/manuel_senfft_-_end_of_grief.mp3 (&gt;&gt;&gt; End Of Grief)
https://werke.tagirijus.de/audio/2020/manuel_senfft_-_trick_or_treat.mp3 (&gt;&gt;&gt; Trick Or Treat)

Other tracks I made in the last months/weeks or so a rather hybrid scroy with many electronic elements ... or these are tracks for clients I cannot show yet. (-;



Edit:
Sorry for the many edits ... apparently .mp3 lines are getting morphed into automatic MEDIA=audio tags here in the forum, which is rather annoying, when it does not work ... I had to rewrite the links manually in BB code to URL tags.


----------



## Mikro93

doctoremmet said:


> You will though.


I've been thinking about it, and I'd like to point out the fact that you're probably right, and I hate you for that.

Have a nice day.


----------



## doctoremmet

Mikro93 said:


> I've been thinking about it, and I'd like to point out the fact that you're probably right, and I hate you for that.
> 
> Have a nice day.


Have a nice day yourself Sir! I hear life is good in la douce France.


----------



## doctoremmet

Mikro93 said:


> you're probably right


I’ve been listening to DJ Shadow’s excellent debut album lately. Mainly because the music is great -if you’re into hiphop at all- and it also serves as a reminder of what can be achieved with samples (on an MPC60 for God’s sake - I didn’t see him complaining about libraries and bad purchases etc. because he just cut samples himself, but anyway…).

There’s a cool little joke on there, a track called “Why hiphop sucks in ‘96”, and the only lyrics of the song are “it’s the money!”.

I was thinking of making something similar called “Why every VI-C member will eventually end up getting Infinite series”…. “it’s the playability”…


----------



## decredis

Mikro93 said:


> I'll go back to check, just in case, but I'm pretty sure I thought the fastest legato speed (with the highest velocity) was still slurred to my ears, and I would love the possibility of a more on/off legato


Not sure if this is relevant (and I may be misremembering), but I think I remember Aaron sometimes suggesting actually making the two notes very slightly unconnected in the midi data, just a tiny gap between one end and the next start: they will still sound connected but without a slur.


----------



## Mikro93

decredis said:


> Not sure if this is relevant (and I may be misremembering), but I think I remember Aaron sometimes suggesting actually making the two notes very slightly unconnected in the midi data, just a tiny gap between one end and the next start: they will still sound connected but without a slur.


Yes, that would definitely work, in any case! Good point  I'll try it, to see how connected the notes can feel.

Darn it, Aaron thought of everything


----------



## Trash Panda

Mikro93 said:


> I'll go back to check, just in case, but I'm pretty sure I thought the fastest legato speed (with the highest velocity) was still slurred to my ears, and I would love the possibility of a more on/off legato


For a less blurry effect, try to not overlap notes during a transition. Perhaps leave a space between them. 

Although you didn't mention it, if you ever feel like you want to get more "pop" out of short notes, try riding/programming the modwheel to add a peak halfway through the short note. Helps to get those snappy shorts without a brutal attack.


----------



## Evans

Trash Panda said:


> if you ever feel like you want to get more "pop" out of short notes, try riding/programming the modwheel to add a peak halfway through the short note.


This is why "shorts" are by far favorite parts of IB. It's really satisfying and feels pretty natural. The amount of control is unreal.

On the flip side, I've never wrangled flowy lines with it (or IW).


----------



## Mikro93

Thank you all for your valuable insight  



Tag said:


> I just searched through my pieces catalogue and mabye these pieces, which are max ~ 1 year old, have a good usage of Infinite Wood&Brass:
> 
> https://werke.tagirijus.de/audio/2021/manuel_senfft_-_it_comes.mp3 (&gt;&gt;&gt; It Comes)
> https://werke.tagirijus.de/audio/2020/manuel_senfft_-_end_of_grief.mp3 (&gt;&gt;&gt; End Of Grief)
> https://werke.tagirijus.de/audio/2020/manuel_senfft_-_trick_or_treat.mp3 (&gt;&gt;&gt; Trick Or Treat)



Pretty cool stuff!
Thanks for sharing


----------



## Mikro93

Okay, saxy time.

I'd like to revise my previous opinion: I find the baritone to be a high mid tier, almost high tier. In any case, it's very satisfying to play!

Here's a fast lick played full blast across all four saxophone types, Baritone I, Tenor I, Alto I, Soprano I. It's virtually the same MIDI clip everytime, sometimes an octave higher.
Same settings every time: Studio IR, Humanize at 10, Mixed Mic 1.

The first round is straight out of the box. The second round is the same thing with just a bit of EQ and/or Multiband Compression, for good measure. There is some compression and limiting on the master bus to bring it to a usual level.

I find the baritone to be the most realistic, and the soprano is, I would say, almost there  Better with an EQ, in any case. But this is also an easier exercise for IW than a lyrical legato line, or a swinged groove, again, in my humble opinion. Although, I have achieved interesting results.


----------



## Bollen

Mikro93 said:


> Okay, saxy time.
> 
> I'd like to revise my previous opinion: I find the baritone to be a high mid tier, almost high tier. In any case, it's very satisfying to play!
> 
> Here's a fast lick played full blast across all four saxophone types, Baritone I, Tenor I, Alto I, Soprano I. It's virtually the same MIDI clip everytime, sometimes an octave higher.
> Same settings every time: Studio IR, Humanize at 10, Mixed Mic 1.
> 
> The first round is straight out of the box. The second round is the same thing with just a bit of EQ and/or Multiband Compression, for good measure. There is some Compression on the master bus to bring it to a usual level.
> 
> I find the baritone to be the most realistic, and the soprano is, I would say, almost there  Better with an EQ, in any case. But this is also an easier exercise for IW than a lyrical legato line, or a swinged groove, again, in my humble opinion. Although, I have achieved interesting results.


As a saxophone player I couldn't agree more! The bari could definitely pass for the real thing, the other's definitely not...


----------



## Sean J

*Infinite Strings is out!!!*

I do this for the thread elders who remember a dark time when such misleading posts brought many laughs and much misery to the masses. May we ever not repeat what I just did...... again.

Hi friends!

Though I've been away from this thread for some time... I still come here. Why, you ask? (I'm confident you did, in fact, ask), for the same reason I visit Aaron's site... fairly often, in fact. It is because I feel a void in the force.

Aaron, it's time.

It's time you start accepting your fate.
It's time to light the way to those of us who live in darkness.
It's time to give into your feelings and embrace what you know to be true.
It's time to feed your heard of sheep.
It's time to share the holy burrito.
It's time to give us the library we are looking for.

Yours truly,
A devoted fanboy

_p.s. at least I came clean in the same post. None of us were that decent before. _


----------



## Trash Panda

Sean J said:


> *Infinite Strings is out!!!*
> 
> I do this for the thread elders who remember a dark time when such misleading posts brought many laughs and much misery to the masses. May we ever not repeat what I just did...... again.
> 
> Hi friends!
> 
> Though I've been away from this thread for some time... I still come here. Why, you ask? (I'm confident you did, in fact, ask), for the same reason I visit Aaron's site... fairly often, in fact. It is because I feel a void in the force.
> 
> Aaron, it's time.
> 
> It's time you start accepting your fate.
> It's time to light the way to those of us who live in darkness.
> It's time to give into your feelings and embrace what you know to be true.
> It's time to feed your heard of sheep.
> It's time to share the holy burrito.
> It's time to give us the library we are looking for.
> 
> Yours truly,
> A devoted fanboy
> 
> _p.s. at least I came clean in the same post. None of us were that decent before. _


I hope you experience mild irritation while sitting in somewhat bad traffic.


----------



## Mikro93

Sean J said:


> *Infinite Strings is out!!!*
> 
> I do this for the thread elders who remember a dark time when such misleading posts brought many laughs and much misery to the masses. May we ever not repeat what I just did...... again.
> 
> Hi friends!
> 
> Though I've been away from this thread for some time... I still come here. Why, you ask? (I'm confident you did, in fact, ask), for the same reason I visit Aaron's site... fairly often, in fact. It is because I feel a void in the force.
> 
> Aaron, it's time.
> 
> It's time you start accepting your fate.
> It's time to light the way to those of us who live in darkness.
> It's time to give into your feelings and embrace what you know to be true.
> It's time to feed your heard of sheep.
> It's time to share the holy burrito.
> It's time to give us the library we are looking for.
> 
> Yours truly,
> A devoted fanboy
> 
> _p.s. at least I came clean in the same post. None of us were that decent before. _



I hope you stub your toe on the way in AND on the way out.


----------



## DANIELE

Sean J said:


> *Infinite Strings is out!!!*
> 
> I do this for the thread elders who remember a dark time when such misleading posts brought many laughs and much misery to the masses. May we ever not repeat what I just did...... again.
> 
> Hi friends!
> 
> Though I've been away from this thread for some time... I still come here. Why, you ask? (I'm confident you did, in fact, ask), for the same reason I visit Aaron's site... fairly often, in fact. It is because I feel a void in the force.
> 
> Aaron, it's time.
> 
> It's time you start accepting your fate.
> It's time to light the way to those of us who live in darkness.
> It's time to give into your feelings and embrace what you know to be true.
> It's time to feed your heard of sheep.
> It's time to share the holy burrito.
> It's time to give us the library we are looking for.
> 
> Yours truly,
> A devoted fanboy
> 
> _p.s. at least I came clean in the same post. None of us were that decent before. _


Luckily I'm force sensitive and I didn't feel a disturbance in the force. So when I read your statement I already knew it was a trap.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Mikro93 said:


> - There is a LOT of low-end, and that sometimes makes the instrument sound a bit synthetic. I've had to remove the low-end quite a lot, through multiband compression or EQs. And at the same time, it's better that way than not having enough low-end, and I'm happy with it.


This is what we should be talking about. For instance, the bassoon sounds heavy on the low end -- anyone have an EQ scheme that is working well?

It would be a pity to envy the sound of Berlin Woodwinds Soloists if a simple EQ could be successful here...


----------



## FireGS

Sean J said:


> *Infinite Strings is out!!!*
> 
> I do this for the thread elders who remember a dark time when such misleading posts brought many laughs and much misery to the masses. May we ever not repeat what I just did...... again.
> 
> Hi friends!
> 
> Though I've been away from this thread for some time... I still come here. Why, you ask? (I'm confident you did, in fact, ask), for the same reason I visit Aaron's site... fairly often, in fact. It is because I feel a void in the force.
> 
> Aaron, it's time.
> 
> It's time you start accepting your fate.
> It's time to light the way to those of us who live in darkness.
> It's time to give into your feelings and embrace what you know to be true.
> It's time to feed your heard of sheep.
> It's time to share the holy burrito.
> It's time to give us the library we are looking for.
> 
> Yours truly,
> A devoted fanboy
> 
> _p.s. at least I came clean in the same post. None of us were that decent before. _


----------



## doctoremmet

I remember a time when this group would actively go through Aaron’s garbage and flag any increases in pizza box counts as hopeful signs of the approach of infinite sunrises full of strings. We have long abandoned those hopes. This thread now feels like a dystopian abandoned lived-in world where only very few force-sensitive people still dwell, and mundane talk of the equalization of low-end-heavy bassoons is the norm…. oh how I long for those @El Buhdai demo’s full of Infinite Strings…. I have actually thought of bringing Muziksculp in here and have him stalk Aaron for a while. Look at his successes with TSS and Sonokinetic Strings… but maybe that would be a bit too draconian?


----------



## gedlig

doctoremmet said:


> I remember a time when this group would actively go through Aaron’s garbage and flag any increases in pizza box counts as hopeful signs of the approach of infinite sunrises full of strings. We have long abandoned those hopes. This thread now feels like a dystopian abandoned lived-in world where only very few force-sensitive people still dwell, and mundane talk of the equalization of low-end-heavy bassoons is the norm…. oh how I long for those @El Buhdai demo’s full of Infinite Strings…. I have actually thought of bringing Muziksculp in here and have him stalk Aaron for a while. Look at his successes with TSS and Sonokinetic Strings… but maybe that would be a bit too draconion?


So you're saying IS will be released next month with a massive initial crossgrade discount, perfect tone, 69 different rooms, 420 possible articulations and bowing techniques 🤔


----------



## doctoremmet

gedlig said:


> So you're saying IS will be released next month with a massive initial crossgrade discount, perfect tone, 69 different rooms, 420 possible articulations and bowing techniques 🤔


Did I? Wait, did you page Muziksculp?


----------



## gedlig

doctoremmet said:


> Did I? Wait, did you page Muziksculp?


I clearly did not. Where did I mention sordino? 😄


----------



## shawnsingh

Nando Florestan said:


> This is what we should be talking about. For instance, the bassoon sounds heavy on the low end -- anyone have an EQ scheme that is working well?
> 
> It would be a pity to envy the sound of Berlin Woodwinds Soloists if a simple EQ could be successful here...


I do feel like a simple EQ is a reasonable solution (details below). It worked for my personal taste in 1.4 and 1.5 - originally it was an attempt to match OT Teldex sound, but eventually I just grew to like the tone of the EQ and didn't worry about matching so precisely. I think it actually can make a HUGE difference in perceived tone quality of the library - anyone who has felt that "IB is great for workflow/playability, but not great for tone" should give this EQ thing a sincere try and with the right mic mix and post reverb, it might convert some people into believing the tone of IB is quite great.

Basically you can set up an EQ curve that creates a shallow tilt or a slope, peaking around mid high frequencies (maybe 1 - 3 kHz?) and bottoming out somewhere between 100-200 Hz. The difference between the peak (at 1-3 kHz) and bottom (at 100-200 Hz) could be as much as 10-12 dB, which sounds like a lot until you think of it like a slope, it's really only 3 dB per octave over 3 or 4 octaves. Then above 2-3 kHz, again a gentle rolloff or shelf, but doesn't dip as much as. 

One downside is that this EQ is a little bit tweaky and sensitive - subtle changes to the shape of the slope can make a big difference (i.e. can affect the relative strength of the harmonics of the instrument). Personally I found it best to have a unique EQ per instrument type.


----------



## gedlig

shawnsingh said:


> Basically you can set up an EQ curve that creates a shallow tilt or a slope, peaking around mid high frequencies (maybe 1 - 3 kHz?) and bottoming out somewhere between 100-200 Hz.


I think something similar to that, but in reverse, works to get a CSB type tone. I tried doing a somewhat tilt eq (two shelves) boosting lows and reducing highs, and to my ears it came pretty close to CSB.


----------



## youngpokie

shawnsingh said:


> ... an attempt to match OT Teldex sound, but eventually I just grew to like the tone of the EQ and didn't worry about matching so precisely. I think it actually can make a HUGE difference in perceived tone quality of the library - anyone who has felt that "IB is great for workflow/playability, but not great for tone" should give this EQ thing a sincere try and with the right mic mix and post reverb, it might convert some people into believing the tone of IB is quite great.


This is so true! Not to derail the thread, but I had a similar episode trying to match some SWAM woodwinds to OT Revive, starting with applying EQ to the bare dry SWAM sound and matching it to only the "Close" mic with releases purged. 

After repeated listening and A/B just to that mic, I realized just how sculpted the OT sound is!! I don't know the first thing about mixing or sound shaping but to me it sounds like there's EQ (low shelf at the minimum) and an exciter/tape saturation. And that's just the flutes!


----------



## Mikro93

gedlig said:


> I think something similar to that, but in reverse, works to get a CSB type tone. I tried doing a somewhat tilt eq (two shelves) boosting lows and reducing highs, and to my ears it came pretty close to CSB.


Wow, boosting lows in IB? Do you have an example, maybe a visual one, of the profile you'd use?

I would clearly cut the lows, based on what I've heard from the demos and IW


----------



## gedlig

Mikro93 said:


> Wow, boosting lows in IB? Do you have an example, maybe a visual one, of the profile you'd use?
> 
> I would clearly cut the lows, based on what I've heard from the demos and IW


I'm away from my pc for some time, so won't be able to post any examples. Also this might be a subjective thing, cause I'm 98% a metal dude and like a scooped sound with pretty full low frequencies :D

(plus I'm pretty noobish with brass, so that also affects tonal decisions)


----------



## gedlig

Mikro93 said:


> I would clearly cut the lows, based on what I've heard from the demo


To give some perspective, in the 1,6 video when Aaron shows the close and instrument mics for the horns, I find myself wanting a darker tone, so from there (and my preferred music) comes the low boost (which might be unnecessary and can probably be achieved better with cuts, but I'm an amateur dumb dumb, so don't take my eq comments seriously xD)


----------



## Loïc D

Hmmm nice suggestions. I’m already applying EQ to IB/IW but probably should set them in a far better way.
When I listen back to my tracks, I find too much frequency fights among instruments.
But I don’t own Berlin stuff (love the sound but too pricey) so I lack a reference EQ.


----------



## Mikro93

Loïc D said:


> But I don’t own Berlin stuff (love the sound but too pricey) so I lack a reference EQ.


Okay, let's get real for a second.

I would tend to do exactly that: "I like the sound of that library, how can I make that library I own sound like that other library I don't own?".

We're just so, so caught up in VI world... How about we try to make our libraries sound like actual orchestras? As in, use real recordings as reference EQ? From different halls, why not?

Happens to me all the time, and I hate that.

And of course, you know, Teldex is a real hall, Synchron is a real hall, and we can definitely listen to real recordings in these halls, and Berlin or VSL give interesting snapshots of these halls. I don't want to not consider it


----------



## PerryD

Ha! If you've got 100 tracks to play with and you're bored... "Behold The Invincible" Sounds like a Nordic battle scene. Infinite Brass, albeit a bit over-saturated.


----------



## morganwable

Anybody else getting worried that IS isn't lining up to AV's exacting standards for a technical reason that he can't figure out how to solve and he'd painted himself into a corner, terrified to admit that it'll be another year, minimum, because of the rabid anticipation we've built up over almost 300 pages of discussion?

That's the distinct vibe I'm getting, and I'm a little worried about the dude's mental health if I'm being honest.


----------



## Zanshin

morganwable said:


> Anybody else getting worried that IS isn't lining up to AV's exacting standards for a technical reason that he can't figure out how to solve and he'd painted himself into a corner, terrified to admit that it'll be another year, minimum, because of the rabid anticipation we've built up over almost 300 pages of discussion?
> 
> That's the distinct vibe I'm getting, and I'm a little worried about the dude's mental health if I'm being honest.


I think you may be projecting...


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> Anybody else getting worried that IS isn't lining up to AV's exacting standards for a technical reason that he can't figure out how to solve and he'd painted himself into a corner, terrified to admit that it'll be another year, minimum, because of the rabid anticipation we've built up over almost 300 pages of discussion?
> 
> That's the distinct vibe I'm getting, and I'm a little worried about the dude's mental health if I'm being honest.


It’s ok, @aaronventure you don’t have to hide behind a sock puppet account. We support you no matter what.


----------



## Russell Anderson

morganwable said:


> Anybody else getting worried that IS isn't lining up to AV's exacting standards for a technical reason that he can't figure out how to solve and he'd painted himself into a corner, terrified to admit that it'll be another year, minimum, because of the rabid anticipation we've built up over almost 300 pages of discussion?
> 
> That's the distinct vibe I'm getting, and I'm a little worried about the dude's mental health if I'm being honest.


I personally have no expectation for a release date because

1) that’s what he says on the website, absolutely not even an ETA
2) I’m new here to Venture stuff so I don’t know better
3) it seems hard to do lol, also he’s updating his other products regularly

I’m happy with just brass for now. I’d rather a release that is in his opinion release-ready from a happy and healthy Aaron in 6 years than to compromise on anything like mental health or the quality of the product... which also affects mental health


----------



## Jamus

Russell Anderson said:


> I personally have no expectation for a release date because
> 
> 1) that’s what he says on the website, absolutely not even an ETA
> 2) I’m new here to Venture stuff so I don’t know better
> 3) it seems hard to do lol, also he’s updating his other products regularly
> 
> I’m happy with just brass for now. I’d rather a release that is in his opinion release-ready from a happy and healthy Aaron in 6 years than to compromise on anything like mental health or the quality of the product... which also affects mental health


I somewhat agree, but actually I'd be keen to obtain a sort of alpha version and just let the updates come in time. That may not be a good business model in the music business though 😂


----------



## Vlzmusic

Jamus said:


> I somewhat agree, but actually I'd be keen to obtain a sort of alpha version and just let the updates come in time. That may not be a good business model in the music business though 😂


Nothing shameful either. In indie gaming, the Early Access model is a regular practice.


----------



## Russell Anderson

What makes strings more difficult to model perhaps is that there are four of them, and many ways to play one note. And many ways to transition between notes. That is probably a lot of logic and a lot of massaging. 

Personally, I am expecting at least a few years, but again, I’m new.


----------



## DANIELE

morganwable said:


> Anybody else getting worried that IS isn't lining up to AV's exacting standards for a technical reason that he can't figure out how to solve and he'd painted himself into a corner, terrified to admit that it'll be another year, minimum, because of the rabid anticipation we've built up over almost 300 pages of discussion?
> 
> That's the distinct vibe I'm getting, and I'm a little worried about the dude's mental health if I'm being honest.


Aaron mainly wrote these libraries for himself so I don't think he would feel some mental pressure caused by this thread. He does what what he want and once he is ready he will be happy to share with us their results.

I think he doesn't care about our struggle of using IS or every other update/new library but he listen to suggestions, advices and so on instead. And this is good.



Russell Anderson said:


> What makes strings more difficult to model perhaps is that there are four of them, and many ways to play one note. And many ways to transition between notes. That is probably a lot of logic and a lot of massaging.
> 
> Personally, I am expecting at least a few years, but again, I’m new.


Well I don't think it will take years to be available, maybe it will need some time to be polished but even if it is higly probable the library will come in 2022 he would not have written 2021 on the official site if he had thought about many years of developing.

I could be wrong of course but I think the answer is in the middle.


----------



## porrasm

I think we can safely assume a late 2021 or early 2022 release. If he knows that 2021 is impossible then why keep that release on the site?


----------



## Russell Anderson

"Infinite Strings are currently in development. There is currently no official release date, and no unofficial ETA." The giant '2021' is probably the closest to that unofficial ETA, so probably within 3-4 months of Jan 2022 is my totally ignorant guess.


----------



## shawnsingh

I actually think we should all mentally prepare for the library to have some weak points and imperfections, just like any other strings library release in recent years. I'm worried that expectations have become too hyped to the extent that now there's nowhere to go except disappointment, and I'm worried that will stain and pigeonhole infinite strings before Aaron has a chance to make the library shine.

As I understand, this is how infinite brass and woodwinds became so beloved. It wasn't the first many versions that reached is potential. But Aaron has proven that we can trust his intentions to continue developing and improving the libraries and that's where the real awesomeness happened. So my faith in infinite strings is about what the library can be in the later versions, i.e. in a few years.


----------



## Jamus

The truth is AV has gone mad with power and enjoys watching us squirm 😂

But yeah nah yeah it'll get here when it gets here.


----------



## Russell Anderson

shawnsingh said:


> I actually think we should all mentally prepare for the library to have some weak points and imperfections, just like any other strings library release in recent years. I'm worried that expectations have become too hyped to the extent that now there's nowhere to go except disappointment, and I'm worried that will stain and pigeonhole infinite strings before Aaron has a chance to make the library shine.
> 
> As I understand, this is how infinite brass and woodwinds became so beloved. It wasn't the first many versions that reached is potential. But Aaron has proven that we can trust his intentions to continue developing and improving the libraries and that's where the real awesomeness happened. So my faith in infinite strings is about what the library can be in the later versions, i.e. in a few years.


I’m not expecting anything great, but I am expecting to pause on buying CSS until it’s released, just in case. Until then, CSW, possible CSB; IB, NSS and Vista!


----------



## Jamus

shawnsingh said:


> I actually think we should all mentally prepare for the library to have some weak points and imperfections, just like any other strings library release in recent years. I'm worried that expectations have become too hyped to the extent that now there's nowhere to go except disappointment, and I'm worried that will stain and pigeonhole infinite strings before Aaron has a chance to make the library shine.
> 
> As I understand, this is how infinite brass and woodwinds became so beloved. It wasn't the first many versions that reached is potential. But Aaron has proven that we can trust his intentions to continue developing and improving the libraries and that's where the real awesomeness happened. So my faith in infinite strings is about what the library can be in the later versions, i.e. in a few years.


I'm expecting it will be much the same as IW and IB. It will be amazingly playable and sound great. No doubt if you listen hard enough there will be synthiness in the legato and portamento but overall it will pass as real in the ears of noobs and be a dream to use. Compromise realness for playability/programmability. Easy peasy 👏


----------



## porrasm

shawnsingh said:


> I actually think we should all mentally prepare for the library to have some weak points and imperfections, just like any other strings library release in recent years. I'm worried that expectations have become too hyped to the extent that now there's nowhere to go except disappointment, and I'm worried that will stain and pigeonhole infinite strings before Aaron has a chance to make the library shine.
> 
> As I understand, this is how infinite brass and woodwinds became so beloved. It wasn't the first many versions that reached is potential. But Aaron has proven that we can trust his intentions to continue developing and improving the libraries and that's where the real awesomeness happened. So my faith in infinite strings is about what the library can be in the later versions, i.e. in a few years.


But people also understand that AV puts effort into them and does not forget about them. Therefore if people are unsatisfied they know that improvements are coming.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I wrote off IB as too synthy for me until a week ago when I heard it completely differently, at which point I decided to buy IB before CSB and see how the workflow was / how it sounded next to Abbey Road, which I’d layer it with. For the strings I’d plan to layer it as well. We’ll see, depending on the quality I may put off buying CSSS and use this instead, but I imagine I’ll be layering everything a lot and using Infinite for solo trumpet/horn/whatever else is good, and probably winding up with the full CS series for workflow and layering.

Alternatively, a breath controller for workflow! If the instruments work well enough, that would be a lot easier for me than a standard keyswitch library if it was just for workflow and not sound. A good one is $800, but I’m an oboist, so using my breath to control cc1 would be perfect as long as the Infinite series can keep up in sound.


----------



## axb312

Russell Anderson said:


> I wrote off IB as too synthy for me until a week ago when I heard it completely differently, at which point I decided to buy IB before CSB and see how the workflow was / how it sounded next to Abbey Road, which I’d layer it with. For the strings I’d plan to layer it as well. We’ll see, depending on the quality I may put off buying CSSS and use this instead, but I imagine I’ll be layering everything a lot and using Infinite for solo trumpet/horn/whatever else is good, and probably winding up with the full CS series for workflow and layering.
> 
> Alternatively, a breath controller for workflow! If the instruments work well enough, that would be a lot easier for me than a standard keyswitch library if it was just for workflow and not sound. A good one is $800, but I’m an oboist, so using my breath to control cc1 would be perfect as long as the Infinite series can keep up in sound.


Where did you hear it completely differently?


----------



## Russell Anderson

axb312 said:


> Where did you hear it completely differently?


Really just the 1.6 update video combined with a thrown-together solo trumpet mockup a friend made were enough to relocate my eyebrows


----------



## Sean J

*Infinite Strings Facts:*

1) Aaron is always silent before a major release. _*Keep Calm and Infinite.*_
2) Expect a synthy 1.0's that still exposes how broken other sampling philosophies are.
3) Expert 1.x updates that will end half the synthy concerns and utterly amaze most people.

Then... remember that even the best mock-ups require "Minecraft-sense-of-accomplishment" kinds of fine-tuning that aren't worth anything next to a tool that's more precise from a craftsman that's more honest in his dealings.


----------



## morganwable

Sean J said:


> *Infinite Strings Facts:*
> 
> 1) Aaron is always silent before a major release. _*Keep Calm and Infinite.*_
> 2) Expect a synthy 1.0's that still exposes how broken other sampling philosophies are.
> 3) Expert 1.x updates that will end half the synthy concerns and utterly amaze most people.
> 
> Then... remember that even the best mock-ups require "Minecraft-sense-of-accomplishment" kinds of fine-tuning that aren't worth anything next to a tool that's more precise from a craftsman that's more honest in his dealings.


Worth noting that Blakus's template has like over a hundred different libraries. Isn't the consensus that although Infinite requires pixelfudging amounts of massaging and programming, it still is less like building the Eiffel tower in Minecraft than getting similar results from traditional libraries? I'd rather fine-tune note placement and CCs than try and use half a dozen keyswitches to _trick_ a Spitfire library into playing the part I want.

People say the philosophy of this series is flexibility over realism, but:

- flexibility IS realism, unless you exclusively compose trailer BRAAAMs or string pads over piano or whatever
- after the 1.X major updates, they're actually _pretty damn realistic_ even without Blakus levels of attention to detail. Like, "could have fooled me" realistic, synthy moments few and far between.

Also worth noting that he's silent before major releases because he's usually silent in general 😂


----------



## Sean J

morganwable said:


> I'd rather fine-tune note placement and CCs than try and use half a dozen keyswitches to _trick_ a Spitfire library into playing the part I want.


That's a bit like saying "I'll take the less crappy candidate".

My goal with Infinite is to replicate what I have with StaffPad. It's Spitfire/Berlin libraries are far more agile than their desktop versions. The re-edited samples are slightly more Infinite-like, but even slightly makes for a huge time saver for me. What I don't love is using an app enslaved by an app-store. That inhibits up-time redundancy. I own two devices with SP, and it's still.... I can't even back it up. Ugh!

Infinite in Notion (I no longer focus on Dorico for composing, just engraving) is my goal. Notation relies entirely (unlike DAWs) on an instrument performing as human-like out of box, while also calling for agility. Which is well said in the following statement:



morganwable said:


> flexibility IS realism


I'd add... but only if it's humanized adequately and accurately enough. I'm not convinced Infinite gets this right, but I can appreciate how hard it is to effectively accomplish. I can also appreciate how hard it would be to balance given the nature of Aaron's ultra-flexible approach. I'm just saying I think human behavior is equal to flexibility when we're measuring how real Infinite sounds.


----------



## porrasm

Sean J said:


> That's a bit like saying "I'll take the less crappy candidate".


That's inevitably what always happens though. The optimal solution (i.e. I plug my brain into my PC and drag the idea out as an mp3 or for a real instrument you can just play it given you have enough skill) is impossible so the available options are never really "good". Therefore we search for the "least amount of crap" way to do things.


----------



## Markrs

Sean J said:


> Infinite in Notion (I no longer focus on Dorico for composing, just engraving) is my goal.


Any particular reason you moved away from Dorico for composition? I have Notion but liked the look of Dorico especially now they have an iPad version as well.


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

My ideal situation: Cubase and Dorico integrate, making it so that I can use notation within Cubase to write in the parts and then switch over to the regular DAW mode to adjust the humanization and add special effects, etc.

Hopefully Steinberg eventually does some sort of integration in the near future


----------



## Sean J

porrasm said:


> The optimal solution (i.e. I plug my brain into my PC...) is impossible so...


The organ.

It's an orchestra at your fingertips, plus pedals. It really is close as any experience I've found to the 'brain hookup' mentality. I'm an organist in my church (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and our hymns are 4-part and only lightly contrapuntal compared to Bach. Even playing those a couple times a week has made a huge difference in bringing ideas more immediately forward. By changing stops, you literally orchestrate as you play.



Markrs said:


> Any particular reason you moved away from Dorico for composition? I have Notion but liked the look of Dorico especially now they have an iPad version as well.


Dorico isn't bad. They do a thousand things exactly right. They just don't do 10,000 things exactly right yet... largely workflow-related. StaffPad does 15 things perfectly. Notion(S1) is similar, but with ups and downs.


----------



## decredis

I've forgotten where we're at with the release schedule. Is IS the next thing, or is there an IB/IW update cycle first?


----------



## DJiLAND

View attachment HTTYD Mockup Master.mp3



Ok, my new test in IB with HTTYD. 12 Horn, 4 Trp, 6 Tbn(3 Tbn, 3 B.Tbn), 1 Tuba.
To test how well it mixes with the VSL's Synchron Stage, I put the studio IR's close mic into the Mir Pro Synchron Stage.
I also tried the newly purchased Syncron Perc. 
Very good!


----------



## ModalRealist

DJiLAND said:


> View attachment HTTYD Mockup Master.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, my new test in IB with HTTYD. 12 Horn, 4 Trp, 6 Tbn(3 Tbn, 3 B.Tbn), 1 Tuba.
> To test how well it mixes with the VSL's Synchron Stage, I put the studio IR's close mic into the Mir Pro Synchron Stage.
> I also tried the newly purchased Syncron Perc.
> Very good!


Epic


----------



## I like music

DJiLAND said:


> View attachment HTTYD Mockup Master.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, my new test in IB with HTTYD. 12 Horn, 4 Trp, 6 Tbn(3 Tbn, 3 B.Tbn), 1 Tuba.
> To test how well it mixes with the VSL's Synchron Stage, I put the studio IR's close mic into the Mir Pro Synchron Stage.
> I also tried the newly purchased Syncron Perc.
> Very good!


Awesome work!
Also, I love how over the top Powell went with this one lol.


----------



## AlainTH

Great. Have you other brass library for compare?


----------



## morganwable

Can you put the _amount_ of mute on a CC to do like, the charlie brown wah-wah effect? At least with the trombone?

I just listened to the James bond demo again and I'm trying to suss out what the limitations of this library even _are_ at this point.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

morganwable said:


> Can you put the _amount_ of mute on a CC to do like, the charlie brown wah-wah effect? At least with the trombone?
> 
> I just listened to the James bond demo again and I'm trying to suss out what the limitations of this library even _are_ at this point.


Kind of, but it will probably not sound very good. Since they are in Kontakt and the instruments are open you can change a lot behind the scenes. Like turning off IRs. The mutes are based on IRs which means that you can assign a controller to the dry and wet of the convolution reverb, but I don't think the IRs were made with that in mind so it might not sound very good and could be very prone to phasing.

Aaron also released a couple of mute presets for Pro-Q which you could use and control the amount of EQ applied without fear of phasing.

The wah-wah effect is more than just "the amount of mute" and is hard to fake. At least I've not heard of a proper emulation of it outside of the SWAM Brass which seems to try and emulate it. I don't know what technique they use or if it's any good, but I would guess it's a "proper" emulation.

For other libraries this, this might be your best bet:



https://librewave.com/product/sordina-mute-emulator/


----------



## decredis

morganwable said:


> Can you put the _amount_ of mute on a CC to do like, the charlie brown wah-wah effect? At least with the trombone?
> 
> I just listened to the James bond demo again and I'm trying to suss out what the limitations of this library even _are_ at this point.


That isn't a feature yet, just on or off for each mute. Would love if this could be added in the future.

The only thing I'm aware of that attempts continuous mute is Libre Wave's Sordina, but — although I like Sordina's mutes in themselves — I don't find the continuous feature convincing, sounds more like just a filter sweep.


----------



## morganwable

Well, that's hardly a dealbreaker. If I'm ever hard pressed for the continuous mute effect, I could possibly justify picking up SWAM. I also know a few brass players, so I could pick up 40 bucks and some pizza just as easily.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

morganwable said:


> Well, that's hardly a dealbreaker. If I'm ever hard pressed for the continuous mute effect, I could possibly justify picking up SWAM. I also know a few brass players, so I could pick up 40 bucks and some pizza just as easily.


The latter option sounds like the best one, to be honest. Real players always add a little bit of magic and personality to any project. Sure it's good be able to do a mock that will be as close to the real-deal as possible but there are certain things that are very hard to do well with virtual instruments. There are also certain things that take your production to the next level -- live instruments and real players is one of them.


----------



## gedlig

Think IW could get an update to add an additional 20 pieces of each saxophone to get something like this? :D


----------



## Jonathan Moray

gedlig said:


> Think IW could get an update to add an additional 20 pieces of each saxophone to get something like this? :D



You can already do that with IW.


----------



## gedlig

Jonathan Moray said:


> You can already do that with IW.


I think best you could do is 10 of each type with the +-1/2 transposing. Maybe neighbour RR could also be used


----------



## Jonathan Moray

gedlig said:


> I think best you could do is 10 of each type with the +-1/2 transposing. Maybe neighbour RR could also be used


Exactly.

That would mean you can have an ensemble of about 40 sax players (SATB) _in unison_. If you are not overlapping lines you could do more.


----------



## Trash Panda

gedlig said:


> Think IW could get an update to add an additional 20 pieces of each saxophone to get something like this? :D



Technically there’s nothing but the limits of your CPU stopping you from doing this right now outside of the contrabass saxes.


----------



## gedlig

Trash Panda said:


> Technically there’s nothing but the limits of your CPU stopping you from doing this right now outside of the contrabass saxes.


Technically there are two more things stopping me: not owning IW and my bank account balance :D But yeah, come to think of it something similar is possible already, but maybe not really exactly the same


----------



## oceanic714

Some Aaron Venture Sousa for you fine folks.


----------



## DJiLAND

DJiLAND said:


> View attachment HTTYD Mockup Master.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, my new test in IB with HTTYD. 12 Horn, 4 Trp, 6 Tbn(3 Tbn, 3 B.Tbn), 1 Tuba.
> To test how well it mixes with the VSL's Synchron Stage, I put the studio IR's close mic into the Mir Pro Synchron Stage.
> I also tried the newly purchased Syncron Perc.
> Very good!



View attachment HTTYD_Mockup_Brs.mp3


I forgot to post this Brass Stem track, which is all IB only.
MIR Pro Synchron Stage was used, and the horn had a lot of EQ curves applied.


----------



## Vlzmusic

DJiLAND said:


> View attachment HTTYD_Mockup_Brs.mp3
> 
> 
> I forgot to post this Brass Stem track, which is all IB only.
> MIR Pro Synchron Stage was used, and the horn had a lot of EQ curves applied.


Cool! Still I have a feeling that this kind of sound and arrangement could be achieved easier with wet sample libraries. I am heavily considering Infinite series, but to fill the virtuosic solo dent in the instrumentary, and some neat special effects I've been hearing from IB.


----------



## Mikro93

Morning noodling with Infinite Woodwinds.

Baritone Sax + Bass Clarinet + Contrabassoon, Vulf Compressor + MISHBY + Freak + BackMask. Battery 4 + Sounddust LOOPPOOL Percussion.

Warning: very silly.


----------



## AlainTH

DJiLAND said:


> View attachment HTTYD_Mockup_Brs.mp3
> 
> 
> I forgot to post this Brass Stem track, which is all IB only.
> MIR Pro Synchron Stage was used, and the horn had a lot of EQ curves applied.


far from what i can expect but interesting to permit to know how this library can sound in context, thank you


----------



## morganwable

On this day... my checking account cried out in anguish.
But my soul is stuck to the ceiling.

Here's an Infinite Brass rendition of a fanfare I wrote for one of my characters:





__





IB Trumpet A - Roger's Theme (1)


Listen to a track uploaded by morganwable.




whyp.it




_(how do you upload actual files like everyone's been doing?)_

Piano roll only, not even using my preferred setup (drawing tablet to draw the CC curves), just using a mouse and nothing else. I don't even currently have a working MIDI controller, so I've at least proven you don't technically _need_ one to use the AV instruments.

In previous arrangements of this theme, I've always had to leave _something_ out due to the limitations of even otherwise super agile libraries - for example, the little grace note flourish around 6 seconds. That was always supposed to be there, but nobody's heard it until now because I couldn't get it to work before. I've even added things to it I never even considered before - a little flutter here and there, a quick mid-note crescendo about halfway through... It's not perfect, but it's pretty damn close.

I have a slight issue where connected legato notes, like for rips, are somewhat quieter than I expect them to be. I'm sure I just need to trawl through the technical walkthroughs and the manual to figure that one out, unless anybody has a quick tip on that one. Anybody experiencing super soft rips?

I haven't even tried out the other instruments yet. I'm just... very happy.
Next Friday I plan on buying IW and Sample Modeling Strings, and then getting to work.


----------



## Zanshin

Welcome to the club 

You should be able to attach an mp3, and then once it is attached there is button to insert it into the post (which has the audio player controls etc).


----------



## Nando Florestan

morganwable said:


> I have a slight issue where connected legato notes, like for rips, are somewhat quieter than I expect them to be.


Try increasing note-on velocity. If this doesn't fix it, then... disconnect the notes (no legatissimo) and take care of the velocities. I hope this helps.


----------



## Geocranium

Still getting used to the woodwinds. I think the flutes still need the most love in future updates. They can be very versatile and agile (even in exposed lines), but there are just little hints here and there I can't seem to shake with the programming. The biggest problem IMO is the tone in the flutes. Sometimes they'll just hit a note or interval that sounds very synthy, but then other lines sound very natural.


----------



## morganwable

Those flutes are still pretty good. What strings are you using?

Here's the thing I posted yesterday, except with most of the brass section playing at once. Some of these parts are definitely best left to the other sections, and there's too many melodies happening simultaneously, but I'm trying to get a feel for how IB works so I'm going a bit crazy with the orchestration:
View attachment IB Rogers Theme 3.mp3

_





IB Rogers Theme (3)


Listen to this track for free on Whyp.




whyp.it




_
I must say I'm rather disappointed with the low brass so far. To the point where I might have to supplement it with other libraries. Especially the tenor trombones. They're just... so tinny and hollow that the sustains above *mp *are essentially unusable. For a moment I was wondering if I had accidentally been sent the wrong version of the library. But also, this isn't a full mix... and even though I can't do BRRAAAMs on trombone, I can do basically everything else - which happens to be the exact opposite blind spot of most other libraries. Looking forward to trying out some choral sounding soft low brass later this week.

I don't think I'm going to need any more trumpets or french horns ever again, though. Well, at least not for the foreseeable future. Those two are so good.


----------



## Trash Panda

The trombones still need some work, but you didn’t like the tubas and euphoniums?


----------



## morganwable

I haven't tried the euphoniums, contra tuba, or cimbassi yet cause I'm not sure what to use them for. 

But yeah... The regular tuba leaves a bit to be desired so far. It lacks definition and the room doesn't match the better instruments. It doesn't rip or crackle like I feel tuba is supposed to. Instead, I get kind of a rolling, atonal, boiling rumble. 

Tuba would also be one of the brass instruments that should get the IW treatment - breath and valve noises. But I can add those manually. 

I'm still getting the hang of it, though. I'm sure I can get the low brass sounding closer to how I like it.


----------



## Nando Florestan

The tuba is supposed to what!?


----------



## morganwable

I might try copying the passage from the beginning of that piece to see if I can troubleshoot my tuba workflow or at least pinpoint what it is I find missing.

I just feel like the tuba in that is somehow more clearly defined than the IB tuba. The IB tuba feels blurry and I haven't gotten anything I'd describe as "sonorous" out of it yet. Its shorts are decent but I might have to switch to the Studio mics and reroom it. The long notes for the low brass in Bersa and Mozarteum are just kinda... Idk. Sounds like a metal tube, not a concert hall.

Maybe I'm still unintentionally pushing the dynamics too high overall. I'll probably like the low brass more when they're playing quietly.


----------



## Nando Florestan

I hear zero issues with Infinite Brass in its latest version. But yeah, most of the time dynamics should be lower than what people currently tend to think. If you do go above 100 don't stay there, get out quickly, nobody has that much air in their lungs.


----------



## Sean J

morganwable said:


> I haven't tried the euphoniums, contra tuba, or cimbassi yet cause I'm not sure what to use them for.


A euph player once begged me to arrange a track from Amelie for him.

Never... *ever*... underestimate the desire of euph players to show how belonging their instrument is in the world of difficult impossible crazy epic wonderful beautiful music.

Write whatever you want. Just don't write anything boring. 

_Edit: mind you, that was in high school, thus the need to prove his instrument. lol_


----------



## shawnsingh

Nando Florestan said:


> The tuba is supposed to what!?



Had a post a while ago that did this with infinite brass, I personally think it sounded spot on... https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-4695478


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## shawnsingh

Oh, I should point out also that I've heard both versions, one with the minor triad performance with legato, and another version with staccato. My version did the staccato.


----------



## Geocranium

morganwable said:


> Those flutes are still pretty good. What strings are you using?


Combination of Con Moto, Vista, and CSS. Just using whichever sounds best for the line it's playing.


----------



## Sean J

All infinite.




Very unserious. Copy-pasted each performance, enabled humanize, mass-dragged the vel/cc-lane up or down a bit. That's it. Chords were lazily done too. Just a quick test.

Attached a WAV for those who might A/B it.


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## PerryD

Hmmm. I set out to do "Misirlou" in a Wagner-esque style. It devolved into a lounge version before I gave up. Good fun with IB horns, tuba & trumpet though.


----------



## Nando Florestan

shawnsingh said:


> Had a post a while ago that did this with infinite brass, I personally think it sounded spot on... https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-4695478


Nice, the example gets really close. But if I am being honest, to me the dynamic is still too high compared to the original. We need more of an atonal, boiling rumble.


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## morganwable

Nando Florestan said:


> Nice, the example gets really close. But if I am being honest, to me the dynamic is still too high compared to the original. We need more of an atonal, boiling rumble.


Point taken. I'll try to use less figurative language lol


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## martingeyer

anyone uses Aaron venture libraries with finale? if yes, is it good? if not, wich notation program would be the best to use it with? sorry for the off topic.
I also find infinite too harsh though. I wonder how I could make it sound smoother with reverb settings and eq etc.


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## Russell Anderson

martingeyer said:


> anyone uses Aaron venture libraries with finale? if yes, is it good? if not, wich notation program would be the best to use it with? sorry for the off topic.
> I also find infinite too harsh though. I wonder how I could make it sound smoother with reverb settings and eq etc.


My hope is that tilt EQ favoring the low end gets me the sound I’m after. Personally notation software by and large seems very weak for instruments requiring complex modulation to come to life; I’d sooner go to regular samples for that. Perhaps other notation software is more capable for this kind of thing?

On the subject of reverb, that is part of my primary concern. I keep wondering whether I want to buy a brass sample library to use with Infinite Brass (+AROF, and that is part of why), as I’ve used neither yet besides AROF and wonder how the workflow esp. for the ensembles and the reverb are going to hit me. 

Between IRCAM Verb v3 and some other relab/liquidsonics/EA reverbs and a delicate use of the mic IRs and routing, I have hope I can position IB into the back without it sounding as much like reverb on a close mic... With possibly even more effects onto the reverb buss(es?). I know @SupremeFist at one point explained just how far he went to try to bring realism to the space for modelled instruments, it can be quite a rabbit hole


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## Bollen

martingeyer said:


> anyone uses Aaron venture libraries with finale? if yes, is it good? if not, wich notation program would be the best to use it with? sorry for the off topic.
> I also find infinite too harsh though. I wonder how I could make it sound smoother with reverb settings and eq etc.


I don't have Aaron's stuff, but I do have several other similar libraries which I've used with Sibelius and now Dorico. The problem is that you really need to sculpt the performances with these instruments, otherwise they sound like crap! You can't let the notation program handle it, they're just not up to the task.... In Dorico you can do that, other's not really...


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## SupremeFist

Russell Anderson said:


> I know @SupremeFist at one point explained just how far he went to try to bring realism to the space for modelled instruments, it can be quite a rabbit hole


Not me, I don't use them! (Apart from some playing with Synful a long time ago.) But am an interested observer...


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## Nando Florestan

martingeyer said:


> anyone uses Aaron venture libraries with finale? if yes, is it good? if not, wich notation program would be the best to use it with? sorry for the off topic.
> I also find infinite too harsh though. I wonder how I could make it sound smoother with reverb settings and eq etc.


I use Presonus Notion, however I host all VIs in Reaper and connect the two with a virtual MIDI cable, and I also write MIDI utility plugins that enhance the performance.

Infinite instruments aren't too harsh, on the contrary, the woodwinds need an EQ to attenuate the low end. For them to sound smoother, don't go too much into the ffff layer and choose mics wisely. Lately I've been prefering Bersa Hall for everything, close mixed mics for woodwinds and distant mixed mics for brass.


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## Zanshin

Russell Anderson said:


> Between IRCAM Verb v3 and some other relab/liquidsonics/EA reverbs and a delicate use of the mic IRs and routing, I have hope I can position IB into the back without it sounding as much like reverb on a close mic... With possibly even more effects onto the reverb buss(es?). I know @SupremeFist at one point explained just how far he went to try to bring realism to the space for modelled instruments, it can be quite a rabbit hole



I've been on that precipice for a while. I have bunch of stuff, like you, and after testing IRCAM Verb V3 I then tested MIR Pro. Bought MIR Pro24 almost immediately haha. It's just so easy and satisfying to use (with the correct source material). It's not cheap though and I'm sure not for everyone. I picked up the Synchron Stage, and Studio and Sound Stages (Teldex etc) room packs. I am biased in that I do have quite a bit of VSL stuff already so it integrates nicely with all that. But even beyond that, putting some small solo instrument based groups into Studio Weiler has been great too. I drop it in as a insert, and then run an algo reverb like Sonsig on a send as as additional tail-sweetener-gluer.

Anyway, I feel like I am spending a lot less time tweaking reverb related stuff, and happier with the results. I think you can demo it without a dongle now? 2c Audio has PBJ which is similar and cheaper, but I preferred MIR by a lot. MIR Sounded more authentic to my shitty ears.


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## Russell Anderson

Zanshin said:


> I've been on that precipice for a while. I have bunch of stuff, like you, and after testing IRCAM Verb V3 I then tested MIR Pro. Bought MIR Pro24 almost immediately haha. It's just so easy and satisfying to use (with the correct source material). It's not cheap though and I'm sure not for everyone. I picked up the Synchron Stage, and Studio and Sound Stages (Teldex etc) room packs. I am biased in that I do have quite a bit of VSL stuff already so it integrates nicely with all that. But even beyond that, putting some small solo instrument based groups into Studio Weiler has been great too. I drop it in as a insert, and then run an algo reverb like Sonsig on a send as as additional tail-sweetener-gluer.
> 
> Anyway, I feel like I am spending a lot less time tweaking reverb related stuff, and happier with the results. I think you can demo it without a dongle now? 2c Audio has PBJ which is similar and cheaper, but I preferred MIR by a lot. MIR Sounded more authentic to my shitty ears.


Panagement does pretty much everything I care about from Precedence besides instance-linking for controlling multiple voices from the same interface, which MIR can do as well. Maybe I'll demo it this weekend. I've typically enjoyed the control offered by algorithmic reverb but the sound (and workflow) of convolution can be great provided the space is great, but it's a ballgame I've not yet played very hard.

@SupremeFist I may have you confused with someone else, by profile picture... There is someone who I always think is you and visa versa.

They had a very complicated panning/ER/reverb setup and ended up ditching it to use sample libraries instead for workflow. Maybe I'll do the same with reverbs, we'll see. I'd really like to be able to make the Infinite Series work spatially, as the instruments themselves can be great.


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## Tralen

PerryD said:


> Hmmm. I set out to do "Misirlou" in a Wagner-esque style. It devolved into a lounge version before I gave up. Good fun with IB horns, tuba & trumpet though.


Have you seen this performance where he develops it through a multitude of amazing themes?


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## morganwable

I decided to do a second, completely different test drive before further developing the theme I posted the other day.
This is after some post effects, including a bit of low cut and a healthy dose of retro color rc20:





__





Quiet Euphoniums 1


Listen to a track uploaded by morganwable.




whyp.it





(I tried to upload it, but apparently you can't upload .wavs and I am currently away from my computer for the night.)

I really like the euphoniums so far. Super nice for quiet stuff, although I had to cut low frequencies by quite a bit to prevent mud and it seemed like the instruments were both constantly fighting me to get a lot louder. They're just raring to go - I actually had to massage cc11 because apparently the euphs don't go all the way down to silence on the modwheel like the other instruments do. But, massaging midi data is something I'm used to, so I don't feel like having to do so is holding me back. Trying to do something this explicitly lyrical with pre-baked samples would have been a slog.

Very impressive.


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## PerryD

PerryD said:


> Hmmm. I set out to do "Misirlou" in a Wagner-esque style. It devolved into a lounge version before I gave up. Good fun with IB horns, tuba & trumpet though.


Well...I like the new intro better but still a lost cause I think.


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## Tralen

PerryD said:


> Well...I like the new intro better but still a lost cause I think.


Getting better and better.


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## muziksculp

Looking forward to IW (Update) , and IS whenever that happens. 

I would love it if IW Flute's timbre is considerably improved. I'm confident it will happen, it's just a matter of time. Hopefully this year though.


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## morganwable

Honestly, I don't hear the issue with the flutes. Although I'm much less picky about woodwinds, and I haven't gotten my hands on IW yet, so I defer judgement. I'm sure he'll get around to it.

I definitely think the tenor trombones could use a refresh, though. But what I'm really excited about the possibility of is getting new instruments from time to time. 

Breath and valve noises on brass instruments would be great to have, come to think of it. 

And is anything coming after infinite percussion?

Infinite Room Tone?

Speaking of which, if the plague ever subsides, that planned fourth, larger hall would be excellent to hear.


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## Trash Panda

Don’t you give Aaron any ideas that will further delay Infinite Choirs!!!


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## Jamus

Other than the oboe being a bit shrill I do not agree with anyone's issues with the tone of IW. It's just the legato transitions that break the realism for me but I don't blame AV for this since it's obvious that modelling that kind of thing without samples would be difficult.

IB is astonishing. End of story! 😂 Breath and valve noises would indeed be pretty sweet though!


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## Jonathan Moray

I really hope we get to see IS soon. I'm usually a rather level-headed person, but I can't believe how excited I am for Infinite Strings and can't wait to hear something (anything really) from IS. But judging from Aaron's track record, we will most likely not hear anything from it until it is released or at least, very very close to releasing.

Since it got delayed and since it's been in at least a conceptual stage for a couple of years, I have high hopes for the 1.0 release to actually be pretty damn good right out the gate. He's also now released two full products and a handful of accompanying updates so fingers crossed.

I agree, it would be nice to get some sort of update on how it's going. As someone theorized the silence might be because it is rather close to release so no point in updating because all will soon be revealed. One can hope. But I rather he try get the product as good as it can be instead of talking about it, so I guess that's good enough for me.

An update to IW would be welcomed (hopefully after IS) and I think there are quite a few improvements that can be made to the instruments, most notably the Flutes, Oboe, and English Horn. I don't find them horrible, but I do find that they are missing a hollowness and that silvery high-end that especially flutes often have, giving them an uncanny tonality. They are missing some of that "magic".

Brass is getting closer and closer to being "perfect". I find the PPP of the horns and trombones especially to be missing something, probably... a hollowness. I sadly can't explain it better than that. But for right now, they are still amazing.

I should really just copy one of my previous posts because at this point I keep saying the same thing over and over again... but maybe it's worth repeating.

Either way, I've been doing some testing/exercises to see if I can get a better climax (FF) sound out of the brass at the louder part. Before, I sometimes felt as if it fell apart when playing really loud passages; at times sounding mostly thin and shrill. Of course, a lot of that was because of the orchestration and programming, but now with 1.6, it requires a little bit less mirco-managment/programing and generally sounds better.

There's very little mixing going on here because that wasn't the goal, but it is actually using the Studio IRs with another reverb thrown on top to make it sound a little bit bigger. And it's only the IB so it might still sound somewhat thin since there are no strings or woodwinds backing them up, but I'm pretty happy with the results and think it would sound rather good in context.


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## muziksculp

@Jonathan Moray ,

Thanks for the IB demos, I liked Overture quite a bit. Sounds pretty full, realistic, and expressive. 

Oh.. I also love your Avatar's signature, 'Professional Procrastinator', made me smile  

I'm hoping that IW update is not too far away, and will be released this year. Not sure how things are going with IS development, but Strings are very tough creatures to emulate. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp 
​


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## Sean J

muziksculp said:


> Looking forward to IW (Update) , and IS whenever that happens.
> 
> I would love it if IW Flute's timbre is considerably improved. I'm confident it will happen, it's just a matter of time. Hopefully this year though.



How could the flute improve?

I ask because while I also had issues with the first flute release, the updates fixed my issues. After that I posted these mock-ups in Oct 2020. The A/B to the original recording is attached at the bottom of this post (stunningly similar IMHO).







The tone isn't exactly the same, but IMHO it's as close as 3 different flute recordings tend to be (meaning quite usable, especially given that it's for making mock-up's, not replacing people, etc.). I'm not saying this to be defensive, just to say the flute is pretty solid. So if anyone wants more improvement, I think they'd have to be pretty specific about what they're hearing in a recording that they aren't in IW. To be fair, it's hard to pin down micro-details, especially with timbre. But if you could articulate it more, that might help Aaron improve it either way.


----------



## decredis

Sean J said:


> How could the flute improve?
> 
> I ask because while I also had issues with the first flute release, the updates fixed my issues. After that I posted these mock-ups in Oct 2020. The A/B to the original recording is attached at the bottom of this post (stunningly similar IMHO).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tone isn't exactly the same, but IMHO it's as close as 3 different flute recordings tend to be (meaning quite usable, especially given that it's for making mock-up's, not replacing people, etc.). I'm not saying this to be defensive, just to say the flute is pretty solid. So if anyone wants more improvement, I think they'd have to be pretty specific about what they're hearing in a recording that they aren't in IW. To be fair, it's hard to pin down micro-details, especially with timbre. But if you could articulate it more, that might help Aaron improve it either way.



I think that's amazingly close to the original, and a really good example of where these flutes shine. I think the timbre is more exposed in slower more lyrical playing, where, as JM suggests, something of the "hollow" "silvery" tone is (or at least can be; perhaps there are mic-adjustments or EQ massaging that brings it out better) lacking in IW flutes.


----------



## Russell Anderson

There is pitch tracking in some equalizers, but I too find myself pretty pleased with the flute sound, as well as the other winds.

I do hear more and more of an “organ” sound in many of these brass mockups, however. This is probably what some are referring to when they say “sonority is not quite there yet”, though I wonder whether this can be ironed out with more humanization (or dare I say performing each line individually...) or some other methods of separation (panagement, EQing sections differently etc.)


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@muziksculp, thanks, glad you liked it. Anything in particular you didn't like about the other example?

The first example, Reunion, is based on a little cue by John Williams and I find his brass, at least in his older stuff, was usually very loud, shrill, and almost on the verge of being thin, but they really cut through a mix. But was there anything else with the example you felt could be improved?



@Russell Anderson, was that aimed at my examples? If so, anything else you think I could do to improve them? The examples were somewhat "lazy". I didn't play each part in and most instruments used use the same midi channel in pairs of two (Trumpet 1 and 2 on the same channel, Horn 1 and 2 on the same and so on). Everything's been humanized to some degree, but maybe not enough. For a grand climax, I would probably layer IB with something else, but that was something I was trying to avoid with this exercise.

Maybe I've gotten used to it, but I find the "sonority" of the brass to be mostly there and only see very little room for any massive improvement. Most of it is probably up to the programming of the parts and midi, and the simple fact that it's not recorded in a real room which plays a huge part in the sound of brass especially. I've said this before, it's good enough for me and with the continued support, updates, and improvements, it can only get better.



Anyhow, as I stated before, I find the woodwinds to be alright, not optimal, but they still do a passable job, and even excel in certain aspects - check out Sean's Harry Potter demo.

But I wanted to see if I could do something only with the woodwinds that sounded alright. I've been meaning to improve my programing for them for a while but never got around to it. So here's my most recent attempt focusing only on the woodwinds.

I didn't say it in my previous post about the brass, but please do tear it apart. I'm posting because I'm looking to improve and am looking for good and constructive criticism.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Jonathan Moray said:


> @muziksculp, thanks, glad you liked it. Anything in particular you didn't like about the other example?
> 
> The first example, Reunion, is based on a little cue by John Williams and I find his brass, at least in his older stuff, was usually very loud, shrill, and almost on the verge of being thin, but they really cut through a mix. But was there anything else with the example you felt could be improved?
> 
> 
> 
> @Russell Anderson, was that aimed at my examples? If so, anything else you think I could do to improve them? The examples were somewhat "lazy". I didn't play each part in and most instruments used use the same midi channel in pairs of two (Trumpet 1 and 2 on the same channel, Horn 1 and 2 on the same and so on). Everything's been humanized to some degree, but maybe not enough. For a grand climax, I would probably layer IB with something else, but that was something I was trying to avoid with this exercise.
> 
> Maybe I've gotten used to it, but I find the "sonority" of the brass to be mostly there and only see very little room for any massive improvement. Most of it is probably up to the programming of the parts and midi, and the simple fact that it's not recorded in a real room which plays a huge part in the sound of brass especially. I've said this before, it's good enough for me and with the continued support, updates, and improvements, it can only get better.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow, as I stated before, I find the woodwinds to be alright, not optimal, but they still do a passable job, and even excel in certain aspects - check out Sean's Harry Potter demo.
> 
> But I wanted to see if I could do something only with the woodwinds that sounded alright. I've been meaning to improve my programing for them for a while but never got around to it. So here's my most recent attempt focusing only on the woodwinds.
> 
> I didn't say it in my previous post about the brass, but please do tear it apart. I'm posting because I'm looking to improve and am looking for good and constructive criticism.


I say give it a shot, on the brass try nudging up the humanization and see how it sounds, else as you get closer to finishing you can play in parts if you need more and higher values doesn’t equal more human, haha. For your woodwinds, they sound great! I’m too tired to get into detail but I notice the front-to-back of the woodwind section might be a bit exaggerated. But sound wise, while I notice there is a lack of “airy excitement” to the purity of the flute, the tone is otherwise all around excellent.

I’m going all-in anyway and plan on trying to figure out humanization (not just the parameter) and spatialization right away. I had a feeling some of the examples (not just yours) were broad-brush section writing in the parts where the sound was weaker, which maybe is what traditional samples do more easily/with less fuss. And besides the individual performers, I don’t suppose the positioning system built-in does the same delay-based positioning as Panagement/Precedence/SP 2016? That may prove helpful as well. And some tilt and saturation. These are things I plan on trying, alongside layering and quite a bit of toying with different reverbs.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Russell Anderson, thanks for the feedback.



Russell Anderson said:


> I say give it a shot, on the brass try nudging up the humanization and see how it sounds, else as you get closer to finishing you can play in parts if you need more and higher values doesn’t equal more human, haha.


The times I've tried raising the humanization before and it's not yielded the results I've wanted. I might try it at some point but right now I don't have the CC setup to do it easily so I would have to go into each individual instrument and tweak the humanization and tuning variation... not something I'm keen on doing when there are about twenty or so individual instruments unless I set all the instruments to the same humanization, which I might try.

There are velocity, note-on, and duration humanization, and I did even go in and add some pitch bending at certain points in the climax to create a more broad and "phasey" sound, removing the too perfect pitch.

Once Infinite Strings are released I can finally create a complete template where this would be much, much simpler to achieve, but right now this was just done in a new project.




Russell Anderson said:


> For your woodwinds, they sound great! I’m too tired to get into detail but I notice the front-to-back of the woodwind section might be a bit exaggerated. But sound wise, while I notice there is a lack of “airy excitement” to the purity of the flute, the tone is otherwise all around excellent.


Glad to hear it. I agree, there's something missing in the high-end of the woodwinds. These are barely mixed, only a very slight hi-shelf and reverb added to them. I've tried a sort of trick to mix the woodwinds and add a bit of what that "magic" find missing, but I've not yet succeeded.




Russell Anderson said:


> I had a feeling some of the examples (not just yours) were broad-brush section writing in the parts where the sound was weaker, which maybe is what traditional samples do more easily/with less fuss.


I'm not sure what you meant by this. Care to elaborate?




Russell Anderson said:


> besides the individual performers, I don’t suppose the positioning system built-in does the same delay-based positioning as Panagement/Precedence/SP 2016? That may prove helpful as well. And some tilt and saturation. These are things I plan on trying, alongside layering and quite a bit of toying with different reverbs.


Delay-based positioning? Do you mean the left & right channel delay that comes from reverb when the source is placed off-centre in a room where the early reflections and tail hit the left & right ear at different times? If so, yes. Infinite uses Impulse Responses, captures of real rooms run through a convolution reverb. There's three in Infinite; Studio, Medium Hall, Large Hall. All have multiple different positions captured, one for each player, and three mics. They are very extensive. In my most recent examples, I only used the Studio impulses because I wanted to test them out. All three of my examples could very well have sounded much better in another room. But again, I didn't have it easily set up to change the rooms without going into each individual instrument and doing so.


----------



## muziksculp

Sean J said:


> How could the flute improve?
> 
> I ask because while I also had issues with the first flute release, the updates fixed my issues. After that I posted these mock-ups in Oct 2020. The A/B to the original recording is attached at the bottom of this post (stunningly similar IMHO).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tone isn't exactly the same, but IMHO it's as close as 3 different flute recordings tend to be (meaning quite usable, especially given that it's for making mock-up's, not replacing people, etc.). I'm not saying this to be defensive, just to say the flute is pretty solid. So if anyone wants more improvement, I think they'd have to be pretty specific about what they're hearing in a recording that they aren't in IW. To be fair, it's hard to pin down micro-details, especially with timbre. But if you could articulate it more, that might help Aaron improve it either way.



Hi @Sean J ,

Thanks for posting some of your IW Flute demos. They sound very good. 

Your demos mostly show the attacks, and short articulations in action, at a high tempo. Those are less of an issue, and sound convincing. The problem is when you are using the Flute for a Lyrical, more romantic playing style, where you need the airy silvery flute timbre to shine, in the sustained portion of the sound, that type of timbre is missing in IW Flute, I even hear something like a Clarinet, or even Oboe, instead of a flute in the sustained potion of the Flute's timbre. 

I think that's the best I can do to describe why I would like the Flute to be improved via an update. 

I hope I answered your question. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

Jonathan Moray said:


> @muziksculp, thanks, glad you liked it. Anything in particular you didn't like about the other example?
> 
> The first example, Reunion, is based on a little cue by John Williams and I find his brass, at least in his older stuff, was usually very loud, shrill, and almost on the verge of being thin, but they really cut through a mix. But was there anything else with the example you felt could be improved?


Hi @Jonathan Moray ,

My comment about liking the second piece, doesn't imply I didn't like the first one, I think the brass in Reunion sound great as well, I was just referring to the musicality of the pieces, Balthazar was just more musically appealing to me, nothing to do with the Brass quality, the IB in both sound wonderful. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@muziksculp, do you have any specific cue that has the tone and performance you would like out of IW? Preferably something with sheet music. I would like to take a crack at it.


----------



## muziksculp

Jonathan Moray said:


> @muziksculp, do you have any specific cue that has the tone and performance you would like out of IW? Perfectly something with sheet music. I would like to take a crack at it.


I don't, and I don't think that is needed. Simply playing a phrase with some longer sustained notes using IW Flute would show the weakness I'm describing.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

muziksculp said:


> I don't, and I don't think that is needed. Simply playing a phrase with some longer sustained notes using IW Flute would show the weakness I'm describing.


I agree; there is something missing.

While working on this melody I actually realized that I think what I want is a little bit more the tone of a recorder in at least one of the flutes. Recorders sound really hollow and I believe it's that hollowness I find missing in the current flutes. And all flutes should definitely not have the same timber and character: since there are three different flutes, there could be three different slight timbral variations. Check out the original recording of this cue to see what I mean.

But I still stand by the statement that they by no means sound bad, and I can sacrifice a little tone for the simple ability to be able to control the vibrato without phasing and the playability.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @Jonathan Moray ,

Which IW Flute did you use for for the Ophilia Demo above ? 

I was testing the three IW Flutes, I tended to use Flute 1, which I wasn't very fond of, but using Flute 2, I began experiencing a much better timbre, with more of the silver, sparkly timbre that I was missing in Flute 1, I haven't tested Flute 3 extensively yet, but I will. 

I think a little more improvements to the Flute is all that's needed, it's still very usable, and sounds good, i.e. Flute 2. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Jonathan Moray

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Jonathan Moray ,
> 
> Which IW Flute did you use for for the Ophilia Demo above ?
> 
> I was testing the three IW Flutes, I tended to use Flute 1, which I wasn't very fond of, but using Flute 2, I began experiencing a much better timbre, with more of the silver, sparkly timbre that I was missing in Flute 1, I haven't tested Flute 3 extensively yet, but I will.
> 
> I think a little more improvements to the Flute is all that's needed, it's still very usable, and sounds good, i.e. Flute 2.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


This was played with Flute 1. I've got a habit of just grabbing the first player of every section and using them as the solos, while rarely using the other players. I will try Flute 2.

Yes, a little improvement to the tone and some improvement to the legato and I'm very happy. I'm looking forward to getting the same legato improvement (at least I believe the plan is to port that over to IW as well at some point) that IB 1.6 got.


----------



## muziksculp

Jonathan Moray said:


> This was played with Flute 1. I've got a habit of just grabbing the first player of every section and using them as the solos, while rarely using the other players. I will try Flute 2.
> 
> Yes, a little improvement to the tone and some improvement to the legato and I'm very happy. I'm looking forward to getting the same legato improvement (at least I believe the plan is to port that over to IW as well at some point) that IB 1.6 got.


Give Flute 2 a spin, I like it much better than Flute 1. Will test Flute 3 as well, and post some feedback.


----------



## Tralen

Sean J said:


> How could the flute improve?
> 
> I ask because while I also had issues with the first flute release, the updates fixed my issues. After that I posted these mock-ups in Oct 2020. The A/B to the original recording is attached at the bottom of this post (stunningly similar IMHO).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tone isn't exactly the same, but IMHO it's as close as 3 different flute recordings tend to be (meaning quite usable, especially given that it's for making mock-up's, not replacing people, etc.). I'm not saying this to be defensive, just to say the flute is pretty solid. So if anyone wants more improvement, I think they'd have to be pretty specific about what they're hearing in a recording that they aren't in IW. To be fair, it's hard to pin down micro-details, especially with timbre. But if you could articulate it more, that might help Aaron improve it either way.



Being a flute player, I find the tone of the flutes the most lacking in IW. I guess this is true for everyone and the instrument one plays. 

I think @muziksculp explained it perfectly, but I feel the same about most of the instruments in IW: as you get to the sustaining portion of the sound, all instruments start to sound alike. This gives my sustaining chords with IW somewhat of an organ sound.


----------



## Sean J

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Sean J ,
> 
> ...for a Lyrical, more romantic playing style, where you need the airy silvery flute timbre to shine...





decredis said:


> ...something of the "hollow" "silvery" tone is...



I may have an idea of what's missing.

Listen to the two demos (real and VI are A/B'd here) on this page (I'd ask we not dwell on a different company on this thread, so let's keep this mention minimal please). I'll also point out that I believe this other company is missing this same characteristic, despite getting other things right.

*"Earth, Wind & Fire..."*​The first few note phrase leads to an F#. At the end of this note, there's a vibrant "uncontrolled" release. Overtones, brassy-ness, etc. Attacks and releases are less controlled with a real instrument (even when playing very consistently) IMHO. It's less smack smack smack and more trilly/prumph messy. Not junk messy, just less "always so sudden and clean". Sudden = shape. Clean = overtones. I can't word it right. There's just a slight improvement in the real instrument.​​*"Impro 2 - Trumpet 2"*​The fake trumpet has a sort of "well, we gave you air noise... but it's a set value, so live with it". The real trumpet has airflow that increases and decreases with the performance... or at least the breathy sound changes more through the performance.​
Point is, the real instrument has more shape to both the air and the overtones. At first glance, that may seem like we're being micro-picky. It's hardly a lot. But without it... once it hits reverb, it's a bit more noticeable that something is missing. I might still be off, but perhaps this may help someone else articulate it better.

It certainly reflects the challenge of this approach. It's like uncanny valley. The closer you get, there's a potential risk until you get every last detail right.


----------



## Sean J

Tralen said:


> as you get to the sustaining portion of the sound, all instruments start to sound alike.


I agree with this. I originally suggested humanizing the modwheel more to Aaron, though it either wasn't as relevant to him at the time, or perhaps not as plausible for Infinite, given the approach. I'm not complaining. I can see why he'd have to figure out his own way of doing things and perhaps humanizing the modwheel isn't truly part of that puzzle.

At very least, the sustained portion might have to vary more... in some way.


----------



## Sean J

Jonathan Moray said:


> ...and the simple fact that it's not recorded in a real room which plays a huge part in the sound of brass especially. I've said this before, it's good enough for me and with the continued support, updates, and improvements, it can only get better.
> 
> ...
> 
> But I wanted to see if I could do something only with the woodwinds that sounded alright.... please do tear it apart. I'm posting because I'm looking to improve and am looking for good and constructive criticism.



I'm replying a bit out of order, and now spamming the thread (sorry) but... this is a golden point IMHO!

Anyone who plays a wind instrument will know exactly what I'm talking about. You can play thinner and thicker with a wind instrument, like me singing a tenor line or something like Tibetan throat singing. We can sing in a "big man voice" so-to-speak, like kids imitating adults. It's bold, deep, etc.

Your demo seems to be "heavy all the time" across all instruments. The room is obviously contributing to how full everything sounds overall. But... the real flute (the first thing I noticed with it anyway) also seems to be airy, light, *and the full rich tone only swells in at times*. It's certainly a bit more varying in body, in air, etc. I'm not sure if it's right to say it's "all over the place on the EQ spectrum", but it's more tonally dynamic. That's less about your mock-up and more about Infinite.

As for the midi... it sounds great. The real performance has a slight drop in dynamics at the end of each note, so it's a little less legato in emphasizing each note). But that's the only thing I noticed (and I only noticed the difference after a few listens.

Edit: I initially said "spamming the threat". No, I'm not threatening everyone. Just calm down, breathe, and keep hoping for IS like a sane person.


----------



## muziksculp

Talking about IS, will it offer both Solo and Ensemble Strings ?


----------



## karender

muziksculp said:


> Talking about IS, will it offer both Solo and Ensemble Strings ?


60 solo strings ?


----------



## Getsumen

muziksculp said:


> Talking about IS, will it offer both Solo and Ensemble Strings ?


IS If I recall is following the same format as all the other Infinite series things. It's aimed at having flexible divisi options and you build up your ensemble so I assume the smallest division would be solo strings, although I guess "solo" strings might have a different meaning in terms of playing style, sound, etc.

I assume it will be accounted for.


----------



## muziksculp

karender said:


> 60 solo strings ?


That's going to be a lot of string players to juggle around.


----------



## muziksculp

I guess there will be pre-built Kontakt Multis, for each of the Sections, Vls 1 , Vls 2, but one can modify the number of players, and design divisi section multis as needed. Giving us a lot of flexibility.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Yes, all the strings are going to be solo so that you can create your own ensembles. But he also said that there will be an "ensembles" patch which just means that it is a patch where you can control the ensemble size, detune, vibrato, etc for all of the solos at the same time in one patch, almost like a normal ensemble patch we get from any other company, just with more options. But behind the hood, it's still playing each solo player so it's not a rendered ensemble. I do believe that might be what he's been working on for the last while. I see it as being quite hard to pull off with all the reverbs and players needed, and it's also something he's never done before.


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes, all the strings are going to be solo so that you can create your own ensembles. But he also said that there will be an "ensembles" patch which just means that it is a patch where you can control the ensemble size, detune, vibrato, etc for all of the solos at the same time in one patch, almost like a normal ensemble patch we get from any other company, just with more options. But behind the hood, it's still playing each solo player so it's not a rendered ensemble. I do believe that might be what he's been working on for the last while. I see it as being quite hard to pull off with all the reverbs and players needed, and it's also something he's never done before.


Reverse engineer SM Strings and take it to the next level 😎


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> Reverse engineer SM Strings and take it to the next level 😎


I've actually been trying to figure out how SM does their ensembles, but I've come to the conclusion that that's way over my head.

For me personally, this Infinite Strings is a better concept than SM Strings. But we will have to see, I might find IS too tedious to work with because there are so many instruments and my computer might not even be able to handle it, but I do like the idea of having access and control of all the players, just like the other Infinite Series.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Not sure if I've been staying inside too much recently or if it's sickness induced auditory hallucinations (could also be a resonant freq in my headphones), but I've been starting to hear this sharp/harsh frequency in a lot of my libraries. It's around 4.2k. This is not only in Infinite, but I did find it very, very prominent in Oboe 1 of Infinite Woodwinds (you can hear it most clearly on the Cs especially the last C). I can also hear it in the Flutes at times, but it's definitely not as prominent.

This is not only something I hear in the Infinite series but in other libraries as well. Can anyone else hear it or am I going crazy? I remember noting it a couple of months ago as well, but I feel as if my ageing ears might have gotten more sensitive to those specific frequencies around 3-5k.

Here's a quick example. It's slightly mixed to try and reduce the resonant frequency, but it's still there and I can't seem to tame it without losing too much of the tone.


----------



## muziksculp

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not sure if I've been staying inside too much recently or if it's sickness induced auditory hallucinations (could also be a resonant freq in my headphones), but I've been starting to hear this sharp/harsh frequency in a lot of my libraries. It's around 4.2k. This is not only in Infinite, but I did find it very, very prominent in Oboe 1 of Infinite Woodwinds (you can hear it most clearly on the Cs especially the last C). I can also hear it in the Flutes at times, but it's definitely not as prominent.
> 
> This is not only something I hear in the Infinite series but in other libraries as well. Can anyone else hear it or am I going crazy? I remember noting it a couple of months ago as well, but I feel as if my ageing ears might have gotten more sensitive to those specific frequencies around 3-5k.
> 
> Here's a quick example. It's slightly mixed to try and reduce the resonant frequency, but it's still there and I can't seem to tame it without losing too much of the tone.


I hear it much more in the Oboe, the Flute has a very slight bit of it, but it doesn't bother me that much. 

You are not going crazy


----------



## morganwable

Speaking of CPU load...

Has anybody had any success running many instances of an Infinite instrument at once through one instance of Kontakt, rather than one per instrument? Currently I have like 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt running and it's just barely getting to the point where I'd have to freeze tracks in order to add more than a few additional sections. I'm worried that with IS, or even with Sample Modeling strings, my template in its current form will become unplayable, at least in real time.

I'm using Reaper, so theoretically, I could route all the midi through a particular subset of tracks, but I don't know how - and more importantly, I don't know how much it would realistically reduce my CPU load to do so. So I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Once I get all three Infinite libraries, I'm probably going to set up my template in that way, plus some ReaControlMIDI instances in order to control mics or at least spaces for whole sections at once. It's going to take a lot of planning.

Another question: can you change the _placement_ of an instrument with a CC like you can for most of the other settings? I want to be able to dynamically swap out which instruments are where - particularly the corner and soloist placements. If my CPU can handle it, I guess I could just make extra tracks instead, though. So far, I have every IB instrument playing at once and haven't had any crackling... but my CPU is at like 80-95% according to Task Manager. Getting nervous.


----------



## Robert_G

Been awhile since ive been in this thread. Anyone have any idea for a releases date on the strings?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@morganwable, generally speaking, it's better to run individual instances of KONTAKT and let REAPER take care of the multithreading. This is true for most VSTs. It's been a while since I looked this up, but I believe REAPER handles it better than KONTAKT. Having a singular instance of KONTAKT will save on RAM though. Which is not a problem with Infinite.

What uses a lot CPU in Infinte is the many convolutions needed. So using the mixed mics will help a lot.

Some months ago this was a concern Aaron actually raised where he said that he didn't want the users to need a threadripper just to run IS, but I'm not sure how he's going to accomplish that. You can exactly combine IRs and have a believable sound, each instrument does need its own IR or it will all fall apart.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Robert_G said:


> Been awhile since ive been in this thread. Anyone have any idea for a releases date on the strings?


2021*


*If things go as planned. It still says 2021 on the website, so fingers crossed that we are close. I'm hoping for a Black Friday release, but that's just wishful thinking.


----------



## Oxytoxine

morganwable said:


> Speaking of CPU load...
> 
> Has anybody had any success running many instances of an Infinite instrument at once through one instance of Kontakt, rather than one per instrument? Currently I have like 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt running and it's just barely getting to the point where I'd have to freeze tracks in order to add more than a few additional sections. I'm worried that with IS, or even with Sample Modeling strings, my template in its current form will become unplayable, at least in real time.
> 
> I'm using Reaper, so theoretically, I could route all the midi through a particular subset of tracks, but I don't know how - and more importantly, I don't know how much it would realistically reduce my CPU load to do so. So I'm not sure if it's worth it.
> 
> Once I get all three Infinite libraries, I'm probably going to set up my template in that way, plus some ReaControlMIDI instances in order to control mics or at least spaces for whole sections at once. It's going to take a lot of planning.
> 
> Another question: can you change the _placement_ of an instrument with a CC like you can for most of the other settings? I want to be able to dynamically swap out which instruments are where - particularly the corner and soloist placements. If my CPU can handle it, I guess I could just make extra tracks instead, though. So far, I have every IB instrument playing at once and haven't had any crackling... but my CPU is at like 80-95% according to Task Manager. Getting nervous.


I'd go one instance per track, as most DAWs can use only one core per track (this is at least a general rule; not sure whether it's also the case in reaper), so it's very easy to overload.

I don't know much about PCs, but I've also heard many times that AMD processors seem to handle distributed tasks better (make better use of multiple cores), so this might be a consideration, too.

I'm on a Mac, and here too: the many convolution responses in IB / IW can be taxing, but a similar track count of IB / IW Kontakt instances seems to be less resource hungry in my experience than e.g. SINE or Spitfire player, but sometimes I get weird CPU spikes.

EDIT: Ah, I See that Jonathan already answered that


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Jonathan Moray




----------



## Oxytoxine

By the way: Infinite Strings is out guys! 






Infinite Strings | Fine Instruments for performing artist.







ifstrings.com





Sorry, could not resist... The universe probably wants to tell us to learn to play the real thing


----------



## Mikro93

Oxytoxine said:


> By the way: Infinite Strings is out guys!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Strings | Fine Instruments for performing artist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ifstrings.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, could not resist... The universe probably wants to tell us to learn to play the real thing



Dear Oxytoxine, 

You're the worst.

Sincerely,
Everyone who read your post.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Dear Mikro93 and everyone

I sincerely apologize and agree - my psychiatrist told me so already a long time ago 😁

(She also told me to always tell the truth, so here it is: I just googled for the first time "infinite strings" to maybe get more info on the release date, the above site popped up - and made my heart skip some beats (so I am aware of the traumatic experience you went through), until I realized that this obviously is completely unrelated. While I can not deny a humorous tendency in the deepest corners of my soul, I have to say in my defense that the reason why I originally wanted to post it was actually to ask whether the term "infinite strings" could not result in legal troubles, as the name seems already taken?). But then the inner demons guided my hands to the keyboard... Finally - you are lucky that I did not post the other results google spit out for "infinite strings" - you really don't want to see those traumatic pictures ).

Now I will take my medication and reflect on my sin. 

With respectful regards

Oxy


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not sure if I've been staying inside too much recently or if it's sickness induced auditory hallucinations (could also be a resonant freq in my headphones), but I've been starting to hear this sharp/harsh frequency in a lot of my libraries. It's around 4.2k. This is not only in Infinite, but I did find it very, very prominent in Oboe 1 of Infinite Woodwinds (you can hear it most clearly on the Cs especially the last C). I can also hear it in the Flutes at times, but it's definitely not as prominent.
> 
> This is not only something I hear in the Infinite series but in other libraries as well. Can anyone else hear it or am I going crazy? I remember noting it a couple of months ago as well, but I feel as if my ageing ears might have gotten more sensitive to those specific frequencies around 3-5k.
> 
> Here's a quick example. It's slightly mixed to try and reduce the resonant frequency, but it's still there and I can't seem to tame it without losing too much of the tone.


You're not alone, I'm bothered by that range as well and your examples hit the spot, the Oboe in particular.

I find that resonance really aggravated by the reverb, so I started lowpassing the reverb to reduce the highs. This doesn't help IW's internal convolution though.

I'm certain it began to bother me more after I switched to a Beyerdynamic DT880, which has a frequency spike in the highs.


----------



## Trash Panda

Oxytoxine said:


> By the way: Infinite Strings is out guys!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Strings | Fine Instruments for performing artist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ifstrings.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, could not resist... The universe probably wants to tell us to learn to play the real thing


----------



## morganwable

*Ugh. *I tried to add strings to one of the things I've been trying to arrange, and... nothing cuts it. Infinite Brass sounds SO good that I'm just not that fond of any of my other libraries anymore.

Either way, here that is with a string section and some percussion:

View attachment IB Roger Theme 7.mp3

_whyp.it/t/rogers-theme-7-gqbpN_

I'm really looking forward to replacing the strings with semi-modeled ones, whether they be SM or AV. 'Cause yowza. They sound _horrible _compared to the brass. And this is Spitfire Symphonic Strings we're talking about. Which are almost universally loved. But they just don't sound good to my ear anymore in comparison to a more flexible, consistent, clean - and honestly, superior - library.

Part of that is certainly lazy arranging and mixing. This string section isn't exactly going to have Howard Shore leaning over my shoulder taking notes. But I find myself soloing the brass bus and just listening to that (and timpani) cause it's incredible how all the Infinite Brass instruments just... play together as one unit. It's something that's hard to describe until you're listening to them play one of your own compositions. Nothing before this has come close.

For lack of a better way of describing it - They really, simply, sound like they're all in a room playing together somewhere. Wherever Mozarteum hall is, I guess.


----------



## Trash Panda

Unpopular opinion: Areia pairs great with Infinite Brass/Winds.


----------



## Russell Anderson

morganwable said:


> *Ugh. *I tried to add strings to one of the things I've been trying to arrange, and... nothing cuts it. Infinite Brass sounds SO good that I'm just not that fond of any of my other libraries anymore.
> 
> Either way, here that is with a string section and some percussion:
> 
> View attachment IB Roger Theme 7.mp3
> 
> _whyp.it/t/rogers-theme-7-gqbpN_
> 
> I'm really looking forward to replacing the strings with semi-modeled ones, whether they be SM or AV. 'Cause yowza. They sound _horrible _compared to the brass. And this is Spitfire Symphonic Strings we're talking about. Which are almost universally loved. But they just don't sound good to my ear anymore in comparison to a more flexible, consistent, clean - and honestly, superior - library.
> 
> Part of that is certainly lazy arranging and mixing. This string section isn't exactly going to have Howard Shore leaning over my shoulder taking notes. But I find myself soloing the brass bus and just listening to that (and timpani) cause it's incredible how all the Infinite Brass instruments just... play together as one unit. It's something that's hard to describe until you're listening to them play one of your own compositions. Nothing before this has come close.
> 
> For lack of a better way of describing it - They really, simply, sound like they're all in a room playing together somewhere. Wherever Mozarteum hall is, I guess.


It may be that the brass are simply too prominent and the strings need to be louder? It is a brass feature, but it will be confusing for the ear if the brass come up front and there is an entire symphony orchestra hidden behind them quietly playing. Maybe playing with dynamics (lower dynamics, not relative to your presentation but generally mp/mf) and volume (generally higher) of the strings, and reducing the volume of the brass might help things gel more. My 2c.

Also, SSS is super wet. Maybe try bringing up the close mics so they’re more easily “flitty” to match the character of your music and less... grandiose, with pinkies aflight?


----------



## CT

Yeah I just don't even really hear strings there....


----------



## Russell Anderson

You can hear a string sustain towards the 2/3rds mark if iirc. But that’s all I got lol


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I found Musical Sampling Adventure Strings to be a good match with Infinite. It was used for the track below and I think it works quite well with Infinite; it's dry so you can easily match it to whatever hall you want in Infinite, it's agile so it can keep up with Infinite, and it's also on sale at the moment for $129. It has its limitations, of course, but works for a lot of things.

The mock-up itself is rather old so it might not sound its best, especially that last climax which is why I started practising my programming again to see if I could get those climaxes sounding better with Infinite without layering.


----------



## Mikro93

Jonathan Moray said:


> I found Musical Sampling Adventure Strings to be a good match with Infinite. It was used for the track below and I think it works quite well with Infinite; it's dry so you can easily match it to whatever hall you want in Infinite, it's agile so it can keep up with Infinite, and it's also on sale at the moment for $129. It has its limitations, of course, but works for a lot of things.
> 
> The mock-up itself is rather old so it might not sound its best, especially that last climax which is why I started practising my programming again to see if I could get it sounding better.


Very good to know!

Your track sounds reeeeaaaallllly good. Is it also Infinite Woodwinds?

And the good thing is: I own Adventure Strings (and Soaring Strings) and basically never reach for it, I really should!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mikro93 said:


> Very good to know!
> 
> Your track sounds reeeeaaaallllly good. Is it also Infinite Woodwinds?
> 
> And the good thing is: I own Adventure Strings (and Soaring Strings) and basically never reach for it, I really should!


Thanks!

Yep. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact setup, but the heavy lifting is done by Infinite Brass and Woodwinds. The brass might have been layered with something else, but if so, it's very subtle because I wanted to see if I could use Infinite to get a good enough and big enough sound out of it when it hits those ff parts. Although I never did manage to make that last part @1:00 sound very good, so I might come back at some point and try it again now that we have 1.6 (this was originally done with 1.5) and I've gotten some experience with IB.


----------



## Mikro93

Jonathan Moray said:


> Although I never did manage to make that last part @1:00 sound very good, so I might come back at some point and try it again now that we have 1.6 (this was originally done with 1.5) and I've gotten some experience with IB.


Relistening to it: I find a few places here and there that would probably benefit from 1.6


----------



## porrasm

morganwable said:


> Speaking of CPU load...
> 
> Has anybody had any success running many instances of an Infinite instrument at once through one instance of Kontakt, rather than one per instrument? Currently I have like 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt running and it's just barely getting to the point where I'd have to freeze tracks in order to add more than a few additional sections. I'm worried that with IS, or even with Sample Modeling strings, my template in its current form will become unplayable, at least in real time.
> 
> I'm using Reaper, so theoretically, I could route all the midi through a particular subset of tracks, but I don't know how - and more importantly, I don't know how much it would realistically reduce my CPU load to do so. So I'm not sure if it's worth it.
> 
> Once I get all three Infinite libraries, I'm probably going to set up my template in that way, plus some ReaControlMIDI instances in order to control mics or at least spaces for whole sections at once. It's going to take a lot of planning.
> 
> Another question: can you change the _placement_ of an instrument with a CC like you can for most of the other settings? I want to be able to dynamically swap out which instruments are where - particularly the corner and soloist placements. If my CPU can handle it, I guess I could just make extra tracks instead, though. So far, I have every IB instrument playing at once and haven't had any crackling... but my CPU is at like 80-95% according to Task Manager. Getting nervous.


I've got 20+ instances per Kontakt. For example, 6 horns on channel 1 + 6 other individual horns on channels 2-7. It's worked very well for me.


----------



## morganwable

Michaelt said:


> Yeah I just don't even really hear strings there....





Russell Anderson said:


> It may be that the brass are simply too prominent and the strings need to be louder? It is a brass feature, but it will be confusing for the ear if the brass come up front and there is an entire symphony orchestra hidden behind them quietly playing. Maybe playing with dynamics (lower dynamics, not relative to your presentation but generally mp/mf) and volume (generally higher) of the strings, and reducing the volume of the brass might help things gel more. My 2c.
> 
> Also, SSS is super wet. Maybe try bringing up the close mics so they’re more easily “flitty” to match the character of your music and less... grandiose, with pinkies aflight?


Yeah... The string folder is currently 3db below the brass because they just sounded so awful and I hoped that would help them blend. 

All 5 string sections are playing either col legno or legato/spicc basically the whole time - more prominently the top 3 are mirroring the trumpets in the second half. 

Close mic and ambient on full volume because Spitfire's tree mics don't blend with anything. And a bit of 1.5s Seventh Heaven Berlin Hall if I remember correctly. 

A bad habit I definitely have to shake is over-orchestrating. It's difficult to internalize the fact that not everything needs every instrument. Having been in an orchestra in middle school, I guess I'm just naturally averse to giving too many measures of rest. But it's for a reason. 

This time I tried to take some inspiration from the Star Wars theme and have the brass carry things while the strings do some ostinados, but I simply can't get the strings to be audible whatsoever without completely ruining the overall sound. My instinct is that this will become automatically much easier as soon as it IS is out, but I also recognize that mixing is not my strong suit. For some reason, I can never get enough room in the mix. I try the old trick of carving out an EQ band for certain instruments, but they just sound like they're on a walkie-talkie. And forget mud, every time I try to use more than a tiny touch of reverb, my mix is filled to the brim with toxic sludge.


----------



## Jamus

porrasm said:


> I've got 20+ instances per Kontakt. For example, 6 horns on channel 1 + 6 other individual horns on channels 2-7. It's worked very well for me.


I have one Kontakt instance per instrument family. So an instance for flute family, one for clarinet family etc. I originally had all flutes and oboes in one instance and all clarinets and bassoons in another, then after testing with less instruments per Kontakt instance I found that it stressed CPU less. I also tested my CPU with even less instruments per Kontakt instance but there was no difference, or if there was it was infinitesimal.

I sometimes play up to four instruments simultaneously with a force to key plugin on three instruments for fun and my PC seems fine with that. That's with an i7-7700k and IW/IB on an SSD


----------



## morganwable

Trash Panda said:


> Unpopular opinion: Areia pairs great with Infinite Brass/Winds.


Got an example?


----------



## Russell Anderson

morganwable said:


> Yeah... The string folder is currently 3db below the brass because they just sounded so awful and I hoped that would help them blend.
> 
> All 5 string sections are playing either col legno or legato/spicc basically the whole time - more prominently the top 3 are mirroring the trumpets in the second half.
> 
> Close mic and ambient on full volume because Spitfire's tree mics don't blend with anything. And a bit of 1.5s Seventh Heaven Berlin Hall if I remember correctly.
> 
> A bad habit I definitely have to shake is over-orchestrating. It's difficult to internalize the fact that not everything needs every instrument. Having been in an orchestra in middle school, I guess I'm just naturally averse to giving too many measures of rest. But it's for a reason.
> 
> This time I tried to take some inspiration from the Star Wars theme and have the brass carry things while the strings do some ostinados, but I simply can't get the strings to be audible whatsoever without completely ruining the overall sound. My instinct is that this will become automatically much easier as soon as it IS is out, but I also recognize that mixing is not my strong suit. For some reason, I can never get enough room in the mix. I try the old trick of carving out an EQ band for certain instruments, but they just sound like they're on a walkie-talkie. And forget mud, every time I try to use more than a tiny touch of reverb, my mix is filled to the brim with toxic sludge.


Mixing with Mike has some excellent lessons about different ways to use reverb for less mud, more separation and 3d/depth. Try reversing the focus of the piece and feature the strings (really just so you can work on their sound since you’re not liking it... but also they’re in front!), try pizzicato instead of col legno, try some runs. Be flitty! Also I feel like tree should be fine... Ambient is very.... intensely ambient, tree is a nice mixture of detail (and detailed stereoization) and ambience. Sometimes if you try to hide something it gets worse, you just have to own it. That’s how I think about it with oboe. Hope some of this helps.


----------



## morganwable

Russell Anderson said:


> Mixing with Mike has some excellent lessons about different ways to use reverb for less mud, more separation and 3d/depth. Try reversing the focus of the piece and feature the strings (really just so you can work on their sound since you’re not liking it... but also they’re in front!), try pizzicato instead of col legno, try some runs. Be flitty! Also I feel like tree should be fine... Ambient is very.... intensely ambient, tree is a nice mixture of detail (and detailed stereoization) and ambience. Sometimes if you try to hide something it gets worse, you just have to own it. That’s how I think about it with oboe. Hope some of this helps.


This is all excellent advice, and I got _some_ pretty good results by following it. But In all honesty, now that I'm getting used to "being flitty" with the brass, I feel like working with the lumbering behemoth that is SSS is holding me back more than before... actively, rather than passively. Because the way I'm thinking about instruments has become more agile, its inelegance has become so much more punishing to my thought process. I'm embarassed to even post my results because the one good phrasal idea(cello is the backbone of the string section) that I was able to implement so far still just sounds so chunky to my standards. I will be repurposing it whenever I replace my string section, though.

But yeah... I'm putting anything with full orchestra on hold for now. Trying to wrestle SSS into something _remotely_ presentable when paired with - and yes, I'm biased - the majesty that is IB, has proved essentially impossible. It's just so choppy! And buggy! And wooden/hollow (in a way that strings shouldn't be!) It legitimately sounds awful and I'm questioning how I *ever *put up with it in the first place. That one's officially only staying in the palette for maybe pads, maybe col legno, and maybe some of the more esoteric effects. It's beyond frustrating to work with now that I've experienced better.

Calling Infinite "the next generation of virtual instruments" is an understatement. Aaron? If you're reading this, you can quote me on that once I get famous. _But only if you give me advance copies to make reviews of._ 

Thanks to this demoralizing exercise in futility, *My intuition has been overwhelmingly confirmed, at least for my workflow: *Although semi-modeled and modeled instruments do require careful attention to detail with regards to tweaking notes and CCs, so do traditional libraries, and it actually takes far LESS time overall to get good results with modeled ones. Like by at least a factor of two. And the results sound at least that much better. _(If you know what you're doing, and if you know roughly what you want out of it)_

The question is, as always, do I cave and get SMS, or do I just try and enter a coma until god knows how long from now that IS will _finally_ come out? So that I don't go stark raving mad from frustration? Back when it was still "oh well, maybe Q2", I was like... sure, fine. But now it's even worse than before I had access to IB.

I guess I'm going to either try some brass-only stuff (jazz or something?) for a while, or maybe switch gears and go back to screenwriting until more news hits. Student loan payments are starting up again soon and I might get booted off of my health insurance, so I'm going to need to do some serious budgeting for 2022. Hence my extreme hesitance to consider buying both libraries.

I hate to sound bitter, but I was really, _really _hoping this would be settled months ago. Like. 6 or 7 months ago.

It goes without saying but *An updated ETA would be REAL nice right about now. *Even if it's a far-off one. That would be hard to hear, but less of a mosquito in my ear than the silence.

Is there a mailing list I can sign up for from AV? It might be best for my mental health if I turn notifications for this thread _off _until release.


----------



## CT

Man I don't wanna be around when you come down off the "playability" high.


----------



## sctaylorcan

morganwable said:


> Is there a mailing list I can sign up for from AV? It might be best for my mental health if I turn notifications for this thread _off _until release.


There *is* right at the bottom of his main page. And I bet the next time it sends an email is upon the release of IS. Which is perfect. And hopefully soon


----------



## Russell Anderson

It’s dangerous to go alone! Take this.


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> Got an example?


Not of that combo, but there’s an IB/IW paired with CSS and CSSS in the Universal Logo cover on my SoundCloud. They work well together too and are quite easy to sequence/play IMO.


----------



## Russell Anderson

The intent with the video above is largely to show the example towards the beginning of the video demonstrating just what can be done with sample libraries, even from 2007. There have been a lot of exciting developments since then, but for the kinds of expressive lines that you need modeling to take care of, there’s also Action Strings 2, and performance-sampled shorts from NSS and Pacific. I am excited for infinite strings also, very excited, but I doubt that it will be my go to for everything for a long while.

Cannot wait for its release (absolutely willing to wait for its release haha), but everything comes with tradeoffs and thus I can’t imagine it’ll be my only tool (it already won’t be, I can’t and wouldn’t sell the string libraries I already love!)


----------



## muziksculp

59 Days left in 2021, It's getting more exciting every day we get closer to 2022.


----------



## Jamus

Need more playability 😱


----------



## I like music

Michaelt said:


> Man I don't wanna be around when you come down off the "playability" high.


Most of us tend to bounce between the two "philosophies" forever 

One day I'm a "purely sampled" person, and the next day I've deleted all those libraries and gone with the modeling approach.

Until 6 months later that is.


----------



## Mikro93

I like music said:


> Most of us tend to bounce between the two "philosophies" forever
> 
> One day I'm a "purely sampled" person, and the next day I've deleted all those libraries and gone with the modeling approach.
> 
> Until 6 months later that is.


I can definitely relate  After getting IW and VHorns Brass Section, I'm very much in a "no more regular samples" mood.

That being said, I own CineBrass Core, which I don't really care for in general, but the room sound is second to none. Sooooooo sometimes, I'll reach for it. In six months.


----------



## I like music

Mikro93 said:


> I can definitely relate  After getting IW and VHorns Brass Section, I'm very much in a "no more regular samples" mood.
> 
> That being said, I own CineBrass Core, which I don't really care for in general, but the room sound is second to none. Sooooooo sometimes, I'll reach for it. In six months.


Exactly! The Infinite series is a nice compromise for me, but there are times when I do think ...


----------



## Virtual Virgin

Quick question about the Aaron Venture Brass and Woodwinds:
Can these VSTis do bone dry/close mic sounds? I would prefer to use MIR pro for my staging.


----------



## Denkii

Virtual Virgin said:


> Quick question about the Aaron Venture Brass and Woodwinds:
> Can these VSTis do bone dry/close mic sounds? I would prefer to use MIR pro for my staging.


Yes.


----------



## Mikro93

Virtual Virgin said:


> Quick question about the Aaron Venture Brass and Woodwinds:
> Can these VSTis do bone dry/close mic sounds? I would prefer to use MIR pro for my staging.


Also yes. And I would argue they are very, very good at that.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Virtual Virgin said:


> Quick question about the Aaron Venture Brass and Woodwinds:
> Can these VSTis do bone dry/close mic sounds? I would prefer to use MIR pro for my staging.


Yes, you can turn off all IRs and use them complete, and I mean completely, dry, but I wouldn't recommend it. I've heard people use them with MIR and I've never found them to sound as good as the inbuilt IRs. But to be fair, there could be a plethora of reasons why that is, not just because of MIR.


----------



## Leandro Gardini

Virtual Virgin said:


> Quick question about the Aaron Venture Brass and Woodwinds:
> Can these VSTis do bone dry/close mic sounds? I would prefer to use MIR pro for my staging.


Yes, you can have anechoic if you want. But I don't think MIR does a better job than the virtual stage of Infinite Series.


----------



## Jamus

Adding on to that question, is there anything particularly wrong with using the closest possible mic settings and then adding a virtual stage plugin?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> Adding on to that question, is there anything particularly wrong with using the closest possible mic settings and then adding a virtual stage plugin?


There's a difference between using the closets mics and smallest room and then enhancing the sound by adding another reverb on top, and turning off the IRs to replace the reverb completely.

I've used a very close studio sound a few times and then added a longer, more subtle reverb tail and even ERs to add a little bit off a feathery decay to the sound.

A lot of the music we hear are actually recorded in smaller rooms than we are lead to belive by the final product.


----------



## Zanshin

Jamus said:


> Adding on to that question, is there anything particularly wrong with using the closest possible mic settings and then adding a virtual stage plugin?


Here's an example with doing that with MIR by @DJiLAND





Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


Technically there’s nothing but the limits of your CPU stopping you from doing this right now outside of the contrabass saxes. Technically there are two more things stopping me: not owning IW and my bank account balance :D But yeah, come to think of it something similar is possible already, but...




vi-control.net





I think most, including me, solo the studio close mic as a start like @Jonathan Moray mentions above


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I kind of forgot my point along the way... My point was: if your talking about enhancing something that's been recorded in a smaller room by adding reverb or adding reverb to try and make it sound bigger, then that's very, very common, but making something BONEDRY sound as if it's in a room, that's unusual. Instruments usually are not recorded like modeled / semi-modeled instruments are, not even in the smallest of rooms. Despite what most people think, VSL is not void of a room sound; it has both a bit tail and early reflections.


----------



## Jamus

I usually try for closer mics and a shared reverb to unify everything. I'm not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination and even have high frequency loss in my left ear and high frequency sensitivity in the right 😂

These things are still interesting though. Making instruments sound like they share a room has always escaped me.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I will keep posting my small little experiments, seems as if some enjoy them, and I know I do when others post, besides, I'm always looking for feedback.

Has anyone had any success doing shakes with IB? I can't get them to sound right. They sound ok, but I find there's something missing. It might need more humanization, which is something I'm always lazy about, but I believe there's something else.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> I usually try for closer mics and a shared reverb to unify everything. I'm not a sound engineer by any stretch of the imagination and even have high frequency loss in my left ear and high frequency sensitivity in the right 😂
> 
> These things are still interesting though. Making instruments sound like they share a room has always escaped me.


Sometimes my mixing gets a bit more complex than that, but a lot of the time, that's the way I do it too. I have a reverb-bus for each section with slightly different settings, then I just route each section to where it belongs and that's it. Sounds good enough in most cases.

When I get Infinite Strings the plan is to try and set up a mix that sounds very much like TSS and hone in on that Japan/Tokyo (Sound City)/Anime sound with the studio IRs in Infinite and a little bit of extra reverb. I really enjoy that sound and before TSS, I've not found it anywhere else, but with Infinite I could create it.



Jamus said:


> high frequency loss in my left ear and high frequency sensitivity in the right


That sucks, I'm sorry to hear that. As someone whose tinnitus has started getting worse and seemingly affecting my high-frequency hearing, it sucks. I don't know, but you might be able to make it work, just have to flip the stereo image a lot to get the average of both ears.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Jonathan Moray said:


> I will keep posting my small little experiments, seems as if some enjoy them, and I know I do when others post, besides, I'm always looking for feedback.
> 
> Has anyone had any success doing shakes with IB? I can't get them to sound right. They sound ok, but I find there's something missing. It might need more humanization, which is something I'm always lazy about, but I believe there's something else.


Less pitch accuracy in the last example would be good, and get one of the trumpets in particular to be ruder than the others. For the others it just seems like the bones shorts are a little perfect/undynamic. Otherwise this sounds freaking great, and the last example makes me want infinite sooooo bad!

Some thing I just realized two minutes ago was that infinite strings may very well be the first library to demand two patches, as strings are the only instrument that get played with fingers and bows, and I don’t see how you could put those into a single patch…


----------



## Mikro93

Russell Anderson said:


> Some thing I just realized two minutes ago was that infinite strings may very well be the first library to demand two patches, as strings are the only instrument that get played with fingers and bows, and I don’t see how you could put those into a single patch…


You're talking about pizzicato, right? 

In CSS, there is an articulation dedicated to shorts, that uses the mod wheel to go from one type of short (pizz) to the others (staccatissimo, staccato, sforzando). We could have a CC message to go from playing with the bow to playing with fingers. Just like there is a CC controller to change mutes in IB


----------



## Russell Anderson

Mikro93 said:


> You're talking about pizzicato, right?
> 
> In CSS, there is an articulation dedicated to shorts, that uses the mod wheel to go from one type of short (pizz) to the others (staccatissimo, staccato, sforzando). We could have a CC message to go from playing with the bow to playing with fingers. Just like there is a CC controller to change mutes in IB


Hmm, I wonder if it’ll be part of the sustains just like the rest of infinite? How cool it’d be to have a resynthesis-like effect wherein a pluck could be sustained indefinitely and controlled dynamically. You know, bow shorts, bow longs, pizz.... pizz longs...

Additive synthesis can do it! And granular resynthesis!


----------



## Mikro93

Russell Anderson said:


> Hmm, I wonder if it’ll be part of the sustains just like the rest of infinite? How cool it’d be to have a resynthesis-like effect wherein a pluck could be sustained indefinitely and controlled dynamically. You know, bow shorts, bow longs, pizz.... pizz longs...
> 
> Additive synthesis can do it! And granular resynthesis!


I'd be on board, honestly  But I'm afraid it would be out of the scope of IS, to be fair


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Russell Anderson said:


> Less pitch accuracy in the last example would be good, and get one of the trumpets in particular to be ruder than the others.



Especially on the Incredibles theme, you're looking to get the lead trumpet to sound as balsy as you can. You're trying to imitate Wayne Bergeron and that's not an easy feat 

Problem with libraries is that most of the time, trumpets that play high will sound thin and metallic and that's probably the tricky part.

Shakes are hard because of the human elements of tempo and tone variations in the shakes. No shake is the same and it's not just a perfect, even "sine wave".

Disclaimer: I don't have IB, so can't comment. Does sound great!


----------



## Russell Anderson

That’s part of the strength of Infinite! But I think it really asks to be played in. Much easier to get sassy that way.

More accent on the last note if each part of the sequence in that Incredibles bit would help to sell it, too. And a little bit of swing. Wild-ifying the tuning a bit would definitely reflect just how hard it is for human trumpet players to get those notes screaming out like that... Infinite has a ton of potential especially in these dry sounds. If we had better reverb tech in 2021, it would be the end-all be-all of brass more than likely.


----------



## Jamus

Marcus Millfield said:


> Especially on the Incredibles theme, you're looking to get the lead trumpet to sound as balsy as you can. You're trying to imitate Wayne Bergeron and that's not an easy feat
> 
> Problem with libraries is that most of the time, trumpets that play high will sound thin and metallic and that's probably the tricky part.
> 
> Shakes are hard because of the human elements of tempo and tone variations in the shakes. No shake is the same and it's not just a perfect, even "sine wave".
> 
> Disclaimer: I don't have IB, so can't comment. Does sound great!


Good advice in general for all software music production really 👍


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I appreciate all the feedback.

I know most of this, but putting it into practice is another beast. I even looked at the spectrogram of a recorded shake to see what's going on. And just listening to it you can hear that there's a lot going. Mimicking the sound of a shake with all the nuance that comes with it can be hard to impossible if the library wasn't recorded or modelled to do those sounds, but I think I might have found something that's not really a shake but gives of the same kind of vibe... kind of.

And I'm trying to find a workflow that gets me a sound that I'm satisfied with without going crazy with the CC data and hand-stitched humanization, especially considering I will use those same technics when dealing with about 60 strings players of which I'm not very keen on recording each player and each individual line separately. I also noticed that my pitch accuracy knob is bugged for some reason (had this problem a couple of months back as well), I haven't figured out why yet, and I'm afraid to report it because I'd rather have IS before another slew of updates.

_Edit: I remembered what the problem was, there's something with REAPER and its LSB lanes that sends like double signals. REAPER for some reason combines its 14-bit lanes into CC1/CC33 which is the dynamics and the pitch accuracy. I don't know enough about 14-bit data to say anything. It's super odd and I've not been able to fix it, anyone knows anything that could help?_

The Infinite series is among the most advanced instruments we have, both in technology and in user experience; you can go as deep into them as you'd like or use them as any other sampled library and still get alright results. I want don't want to spend most of my time moving around midi notes and CC data, but I still want a realistic performance and sound, and I think I've found a good balance.

Here's another test of the Incredibles theme. There are a few things missing compared to the original, for one, it's not as aggressive.


----------



## Mikro93

I'd try increasing the range of the shakes, to at least a minor third 
And in the first phrases, I can only hear a bend up, when the original version might be more chaotic than that. But yeah, not a simple thing!


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Mikro93 said:


> I'd try increasing the range of the shakes, to at least a minor third



I'd do a fifth in the shake in the lead trumpet, make that 8va and make the highest point of the shake the loudest for full effect. This will create the same dynamics as a real trumpeter will make as he's pushing the air through the horn with higher velocity to get the shake right. Maybe you can even tune the lead a bit higher, say 0.3cents to really set it apart. In practice, this will probably happen anyway cause all this upper playing will push his embouchure and tuning a bit sharp.

Sorry if all the comments are putting you off @Jonathan Moray. I really like your tests with these libs, they sound fantastic as they are!


----------



## Russell Anderson

Individually performing in 60 players to get the results I want is part of the reason I’m on the fence about whether infinite strings is going to be something I’m as into as the brass. But I second the above, it’s sounding great, and I would try those things as well. The octave recommendation is super. I feel like using this library just gets so much easier with a breath controller, I’m kind of thinking about getting one because you could do this kind of stuff all day


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mikro93 said:


> I'd try increasing the range of the shakes, to at least a minor third
> And in the first phrases, I can only hear a bend up, when the original version might be more chaotic than that. But yeah, not a simple thing!





Marcus Millfield said:


> I'd do a fifth in the shake in the lead trumpet, make that 8va and make the highest point of the shake the loudest for full effect. This will create the same dynamics as a real trumpeter will make as he's pushing the air through the horn with higher velocity to get the shake right. Maybe you can even tune the lead a bit higher, say 0.3cents to really set it apart. In practice, this will probably happen anyway cause all this upper playing will push his embouchure and tuning a bit sharp.


A minor third? A fifth?! Those are some huge leaps. Most shakes seem to barely be a whole-tone. In the examples I posted I did a semi-tone but after testing a minor third - which did sound good if you want that really heavy "shake" - I settled for a whole tone. It sounded better. So thanks for the suggestion.

That's actually something that took me a little while to figure out, but giving the shake a little dynamics bump at the peak of the shake was quite important for the sound. This is exactly why I like these discussions because it would have saved me some time if I'd posted earlier. All very good information, thanks!



Marcus Millfield said:


> Sorry if all the comments are putting you off @Jonathan Moray. I really like your tests with these libs, they sound fantastic as they are!


Absolutely not! That's why I'm posting; I want comments like this to help improve. I know some of the fundamentals of most instruments, but I learn so much more by talking to those that actually play and know the instruments intimately.



Russell Anderson said:


> Individually performing in 60 players to get the results I want is part of the reason I’m on the fence about whether infinite strings is going to be something I’m as into as the brass. But I second the above, it’s sounding great, and I would try those things as well. The octave recommendation is super. I feel like using this library just gets so much easier with a breath controller, I’m kind of thinking about getting one because you could do this kind of stuff all day


We will have to see, but I don't think you will have to worry too much. For example, the tests I've done, as you've noticed, have been rather lazy where I've just played all the instruments at once and then barely done any individual editing. For a more specific sound or articulation, for example when I'm doing atonal horn parts, yes, I will go in and edit each horn individually, but otherwise, mostly not. And I think the strings will be even better at this

Also, for me, having the option to go in and micro-manage every little legato transition, performance, crescendo, pitch inaccuracy, is worth a lot. I don't have to just accept bad performance or transition because it was recorded that way, I can change it. I also like being able to build my own ensembles, and I find it quite impressive that it's the same library playing all these different styles from music in Quo Vadis to The Incredibles.

You mention the trombones and hit the nail on the head, I don't think I did barely any velocity editing on those and I know I didn't play them in (I'm not that good of a player), so if you can play them in, you will get a much better result with much less work.


----------



## Mikro93

Jonathan Moray said:


> A minor third? A fifth?! Those are some huge leaps. Most shakes seem to barely be a whole-tone. In the examples I posted I did a semi-tone but after testing a minor third - which did sound good if you want that really heavy "shake" - I settled for a whole tone. It sounded better. So thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> That's actually something that took me a little while to figure out, but giving the shake a little dynamics bump at the peak of the shake was quite important for the sound. This is exactly why I like these discussions because it would have saved me some time if I'd posted earlier. All very good information, thanks!
> 
> 
> Absolutely not! That's why I'm posting; I want comments like this to help improve. I know some of the fundamentals of most instruments, but I learn so much more by talking to those that actually play and know the instruments intimately.
> 
> 
> We will have to see, but I don't think you will have to worry too much. For example, the tests I've done, as you've noticed, have been rather lazy where I've just played all the instruments at once and then barely done any individual editing. For a more specific sound or articulation, for example when I'm doing atonal horn parts, yes, I will go in and edit each horn individually, but otherwise, mostly not. And I think the strings will be even better at this
> 
> Also, for me, having the option to go in and micro-manage every little legato transition, performance, crescendo, pitch inaccuracy, is worth a lot. I don't have to just accept bad performance or transition because it was recorded that way, I can change it. I also like being able to build my own ensembles, and I find it quite impressive that it's the same library playing all these different styles from music in Quo Vadis to The Incredibles.
> 
> You mention the trombones and hit the nail on the head, I don't think I did barely any velocity editing on those and I know I didn't play them in (I'm not that good of a player), so if you can play them in, you will get a much better result with much less work.


I think it's much better  How about a tiny bit of random-ish pitch-bend wiggling during that last shake, so that it sounds more like a shake and less like a trill?

EDIT: And also, the beginning of each note is a bit too "marcato" for me, I would reduce the velocities for these


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Mikro93 said:


> I think it's much better  How about a tiny bit of random-ish pitch-bend wiggling during that last shake, so that it sounds more like a shake and less like a trill?


That's because of the whole-tone trill.

The "wow" in these passages comes from exaggeration: you want those shakes to be wild and believe me, doing even octave shakes is common among these scores. You want that lead to scream and stand apart, you want it t sound dirty and gritty and with a few flaws: that's what makes it come alive and be human 

It's all taste eventually, but if you want to get closer to that original Incredibles score, you'd want those wild shakes!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mikro93 said:


> I think it's much better  How about a tiny bit of random-ish pitch-bend wiggling during that last shake, so that it sounds more like a shake and less like a trill?
> 
> EDIT: And also, the beginning of each note is a bit too "marcato" for me, I would reduce the velocities for these


Easily done. 

Here's a _quick _edit of the suggestions. Please, keep them coming.


----------



## Mikro93

Jonathan Moray said:


> Easily done.
> 
> Here's a _quick _edit of the suggestions. Please, keep them coming.


Not bad at all!

I would sit on it for a few hours and consider what @Marcus Millfield is saying 

EDIT: an easy fix again, but I'm confronted to this with IW: the first velocity of each phrase could be higher, to have a clear attack at the beginning of your lines. There is a difference between how I'd handle the velocity of a first note in a melodic phrase and all other notes


----------



## Marcus Millfield

If not from me, take the advise from the second trumpeter Rick Baptist who actually played on the Incredibles OST 



"The whole brass is so outfront and in your face, so wraaaaaagh!"


----------



## Marcus Millfield

I never should've contributed to this thread, now I have GAS for Aaron Ventures products. Nearly all demo's in this thread are superb!


----------



## Russell Anderson

Marcus Millfield said:


> I never should've contributed to this thread, now I have GAS for Aaron Ventures products. Nearly all demo's in this thread are superb!


I slept on it for a long time. I recommend you do not watch Cory Pelizzari's video on the woodwinds.

Can't wait for black friday sales. If my RAM hasn't arrived by then, won't stop me from playing with the Venture stuff!


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Russell Anderson said:


> I recommend you do not watch Cory Pelizzari's video on the woodwinds.


You... bastard!

Just kidding. These libraries have pro's and cons and I'm aware of them. It's just the playability helps so much in developing ideas quickly. Mostly, the ideas I don't write on paper but try to work out with a library directly have about a 75% chance of failing because I'm having to tweak the sh#t out of the samples to get in the ballpark for where I want to be. It's not worth the effort for me anymore.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I find myself writing "to" or "for" a given library quite a bit. Maybe that comes with being an instrumentalist before being a composer, but I'm really very excited to see how being able to use the musicality I've developed learning to play the oboe will translate into what kinds of things I write (and they won't sound like a complete mess of desperate crossfading when trying to render something a little on the wild side). Certainly I want to pair Infinite with libraries that can better deliver the basics quickly, in a beautiful room with push-button expression, but there are things you truly cannot do with samples unless you've got the time to layer 5 sets of shorts from 3 libraries at different lengths and dynamics, maybe even using custom Kontakt libraries you've edited yourself... So, thanks Aaron!


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Russell Anderson said:


> I find myself writing "to" or "for" a given library quite a bit. Maybe that comes with being an instrumentalist before being a composer


That's exactly the opposite of where I'm at. I'm an instrumentalist (trumpet, flügelhorn, piano) first too, but want a library to be able to do what I write and not want to write "to" or "for" a library. That's why I skip that part a lot and just write on my sheetpaper behind a piano most of the time. I do see the benefit of Aaron's approach so looking forward to have those tools available to write with (not for or to).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

The thing with Aaron's products are that you don't have to worry about ram. Each instrument usually takes less than 10mb of RAM according to the Kontkat readout. It's the CPU that's the bigger problem when doing large setups.


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> The thing with Aaron's products are that you don't have to worry about ram. Each instrument usually takes less than 10mb of RAM according to the Kontkat readout. It's the CPU that's the bigger problem when doing large setups.


I suppose that's the cost of having audio being modelled live as you play to humanize and articulate everything on the fly. I think we can all agree the results are astounding. Maybe as time goes on and CPUs continue to advance it will become less of an issue?


----------



## Loïc D

Jamus said:


> I suppose that's the cost of having audio being modelled live as you play to humanize and articulate everything on the fly. I think we can all agree the results are astounding. Maybe as time goes on and CPUs continue to advance it will become less of an issue?


There’s the CPU sheer performance.
And there’s the way Kontakt takes benefit of it.
On the latter one, I’m not too confident.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> I suppose that's the cost of having audio being modelled live as you play to humanize and articulate everything on the fly. I think we can all agree the results are astounding. Maybe as time goes on and CPUs continue to advance it will become less of an issue?


Oh, its barely an issue now. I'm on an almost 10 year old computer with an old i7 and it's running fine for the most part. Something newer would probably handle bigger setups without much difficulties.


----------



## obey

Jonathan Moray said:


> Easily done.
> 
> Here's a _quick _edit of the suggestions. Please, keep them coming.


The improvements are PALPABLE from the first draft! These are great! 

I'd say what I want performance wise is to swing harder. Make it groove more and make the whole thing have even more charisma.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Marcus Millfield said:


> That's exactly the opposite of where I'm at. I'm an instrumentalist (trumpet, flügelhorn, piano) first too, but want a library to be able to do what I write and not want to write "to" or "for" a library. That's why I skip that part a lot and just write on my sheetpaper behind a piano most of the time. I do see the benefit of Aaron's approach so looking forward to have those tools available to write with (not for or to).


I guess it’s just about how you go about it. I do _some_ paper and pencil stuff, but perhaps like you I don’t even bother trying a good chunk of it (granted, that’s 90% because my computer couldn’t handle more than 3 Kontakt instruments without absolutely buckling). 

Paper and pencil (or the Voice Memos app on my phone) seem to be where a lot of the magic happens. Maybe that’s largely because my keyboard skills are unpolished to the extent that I have to leave the computer when ideas start flowing so that I can keep up with them, by saying leadsheet notation aloud and singing and making sounds into my phone to come back to.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

obey said:


> The improvements are PALPABLE from the first draft! These are great!
> 
> I'd say what I want performance wise is to swing harder. Make it groove more and make the whole thing have even more charisma.


I will get on that next!

I created this before I read your post, so right now it's just perfect 4/4 without any swing and a bit too quantized, but now that I've put it into more context and added bass and especially drums, some swing wouldn't be a bad idea. Love me some swingy drums.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@obey, here's the swingier version. This is just a very quick change to the rhythm so I will have to look through it a bit more when I've got the time to see if I can improve it even further. Ain't got the time right now to do a proper job, but I still found it sounding just fine.


----------



## obey

YEAH, getting there! I kinda can't wait until you have time to sit down an mess with it more, haha. :D

I think the logarithmic way swing makes the shakes ramp in the phrase will make it easier to keep a lower velocity and REALLY ramp it at the top without going overboard but really leaning into the motion. You can REALLY amp the anticipation on the shakes there and wait until the VERY last second to transition with a flourish. That's my 2c anyway, that already sound smore authentic a performance just from a little swing grid. Nice!


----------



## Jamus

Loïc D said:


> There’s the CPU sheer performance.
> And there’s the way Kontakt takes benefit of it.
> On the latter one, I’m not too confident.


That didn't even cross my mind. I'm still on Kontakt 5. Any performance difference between K5 and K6?


----------



## dcgrp

Has anyone tried using something like vochlea's Dubler to control infinite? ( https://vochlea.com/ )

What pitfalls could you imagine falling into? What benefits could you see? How much MIDI cleanup after recording a dubler take do think there would be? Once I get some free time, I think I'll download the dubler trial and give it a whirl.


----------



## Zanshin

dcgrp said:


> Has anyone tried using something like vochlea's Dubler to control infinite? ( https://vochlea.com/ )
> 
> What pitfalls could you imagine falling into? What benefits could you see? How much MIDI cleanup after recording a dubler take do think there would be? Once I get some free time, I think I'll download the dubler trial and give it a whirl.


Is there a trial? I didn't see that anywhere. Looks like a cool app though.


----------



## dcgrp

Zanshin said:


> Is there a trial? I didn't see that anywhere. Looks like a cool app though.


Looks like you might be right. It looks like they recently discontinued their free trial.


----------



## obey

Dodo MIDI (https://dodobirdmusic.com/dodo-midi/) and Waves OVox (https://www.waves.com/plugins/ovox-vocal-resynthesis) are two plugins that can transcode vocal audio into MIDI information. There are probably others, though I don't know how many axes of control you can define vs what Vochlea might provide.


----------



## Vlzmusic

dcgrp said:


> Has anyone tried using something like vochlea's Dubler to control infinite? ( https://vochlea.com/ )
> 
> What pitfalls could you imagine falling into? What benefits could you see? How much MIDI cleanup after recording a dubler take do think there would be? Once I get some free time, I think I'll download the dubler trial and give it a whirl.


I have tried using voice input for control, back in the days of Roland V-synth (still unsurpassed in vocal designer - super powerful vocoder) but it gets tiresome, you have to keep stable level, or else it stops being "instrument" like, and when inserting dynamics, they are all over the place as well.


----------



## dcgrp

Vlzmusic said:


> I have tried using voice input for control, back in the days of Roland V-synth (still unsurpassed in vocal designer - super powerful vocoder) but it gets tiresome, you have to keep stable level, or else it stops being "instrument" like, and when inserting dynamics, they are all over the place as well.


Thanks for the info! Sounds like if I want to expand my control in infinite, it would probably be better to spend money on a breath controller device and continue to use my MIDI keyboard for note/velocity information compared to trying to do vocals to MIDI input.

Can anyone tell me if they have a compelling reason why I might want to go for the TEC breath and bite controller vs. one of their more simple offerings? Do the extra axis of control make a lot of difference in getting better input into infinite to reduce the amount of MIDI cleanup after a take?


----------



## martingeyer

dcgrp said:


> Thanks for the info! Sounds like if I want to expand my control in infinite, it would probably be better to spend money on a breath controller device and continue to use my MIDI keyboard for note/velocity information compared to trying to do vocals to MIDI input.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if they have a compelling reason why I might want to go for the TEC breath and bite controller vs. one of their more simple offerings? Do the extra axis of control make a lot of difference in getting better input into infinite to reduce the amount of MIDI cleanup after a take?


I have a breath and bite controller but I only use the breath input. the bite function is not very even and feels out of control for me and the tilt is also very weird. maybe some people can use all the functions at the same time...dont know. anyway even if I use the breath controller, I only use it to play with divismate or improvise with both hands at the same time, not to program midi. If I want to program midi I prefer the modwheel much more, or a slider. I would go for the breath only, but I wouldn't buy any of them at all if you just want to program midi.


----------



## scoplunk

And I had the complete opposite experience with the TEC2. I was having a hard time getting the results I wanted out of IB, had experience with the old Yamaha BC (used one with the DX7 and a VL1) and decided to go for the full 4 controller at once experience with the TEC2. It probably took me a few hours to figure out how I wanted to set up the sensitivity of all the controllers and then select parameters for them. After that, I practiced another few hours with IB and the SWAM saxes and I was off and running. Sure, it's an ongoing learning curve, but for me, this makes much more sense than trying to make all those movements with a mod wheel. The BC just feels natural to me, especially when I'm trying to phrase a brass or woodwind instrument, but I sometimes even use it with other instruments.

Regarding the other controllers - bite, tilt and nod: I was afraid these would be really difficult to learn and control, but the software that the TEC2 comes with allows a lot of customization and I had no trouble getting everything working pretty much from the beginning. The bite took a little getting used to and I'm not an expert with it yet, but I get useful results and can always go in and move the curve up or down if I bite down too little or too hard. What I like is that the musical intention is realized when I play the part in and it feels like I'm playing a musical instrument with IB and SWAM. 

One other thing I worried about was whether all those controllers would always be making a MIDI mess whenever the TEC2 was plugged in. The good news is that the software is well designed. You can turn off any of the sensors and you can save presets. So, I have presets that only use the BC, ones that just use the BC and bite and presets that use all the sensors. It's pretty simple to manage the entire system so that I don't clog up the MIDI stream with data that I don't need.

Anyway, I'm a big fan. I know a fancy BC isn't for everyone, but if you connect with this way of working, you won't want to live without it.


----------



## lljfnord

What are the breath control weapons of choice among the forum users? I'm thinking of taking the plunge, but I really don't know where to start. The entry level options look so expensive.


----------



## doctoremmet

TEControl BBC2


----------



## gedlig

Looks like IS is going nicely 





What's the best way to handle instruments with multiple script slots?


I've managed to go this long without properly diving in and using all the features Kontakt has when it comes to using multiple script slots in a single patch, as so far I didn't really feel a need for them. So before I fully dive in and start utilizing them, I'd like to know if there are any...




vi-control.net


----------



## morganwable

...Does this mean he's just getting around to the scripting phase now??

Or is he trying to optimize 1.0 by consolidating scripts that have already been written? My goodness I hope it's the latter.

Q1...

Edit - is AV doing _all _of the development by himself? I thought he at least had like... some direct help. My god, man.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@gedlig @morganwable

Already read that and we have no idea hows it going, we only know that it's being worked on - which we already knew.

I believe this is mostly for future plans because otherwise, this is usually something that would be figured out and done early on in the development cycle of a product, or in this case, a series. Separating the code into different segments is really useful when you've got as many different parts (instruments) that still use a lot of the same base code with their own custom code - like what I believe the Infinite Series does. Or I'm might be misunderstanding it.

Not sure how hard it would be to segment the code, it might not even be that hard or it's something he's planed for a while and is the last step... who knows.

The bottom line is: it's done when it's done. Sure, it's fun to speculate and we are all hopeful for a quick release, but don't go bothering Aaron (I know you didn't this time, but still, scrutinizing every little thing he writes or asks could get tedious) or looking for things that might not mean much.


----------



## Tralen

lljfnord said:


> What are the breath control weapons of choice among the forum users? I'm thinking of taking the plunge, but I really don't know where to start. The entry level options look so expensive.


EWI Solo here.


----------



## Tralen

I'm out of the loop with the Infinite development, did I miss any news on the IW update?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> I'm out of the loop with the Infinite development, did I miss any news on the IW update?


No. People are just getting restless (more correctly: have been for the last couple of years) about the Infinite String release and are grasping at straws to get any form of update about its progress. As per usual, we have very little info about the upcoming Infinite releases & updates, they will come when they come.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> @gedlig @morganwable
> 
> Already read that and we have no idea hows it going, we only know that it's being worked on - which we already knew.
> 
> I believe this is mostly for future plans because otherwise, this is usually something that would be figured out and done early on in the development cycle of a product, or in this case, a series. Separating the code into different segments is really useful when you've got as many different parts (instruments) that still use a lot of the same base code with their own custom code - like what I believe the Infinite Series does. Or I'm might be misunderstanding it.
> 
> Not sure how hard it would be to segment the code, it might not even be that hard or it's something he's planed for a while and is the last step... who knows.
> 
> The bottom line is: it's done when it's done. Sure, it's fun to speculate and we are all hopeful for a quick release, but don't go bothering Aaron (I know you didn't this time, but still, scrutinizing every little thing he writes or asks could get tedious) or looking for things that might not mean much.
> 
> @doctoremmet, maybe read the statements again? I saw no drama until you brought it up.


From what I understand it meant specifically for IS because it should have a lot of instrument (control on every single string instrument per section), this is where shared code is useful. For IB and IW he code every instrument as a single beast (as he said) and until now he has not needed to think that way.

I'm very curious about the coding behind this technology, I think it is interesting to talk about it, without annoying Aaron of course.


----------



## gedlig

Jonathan Moray said:


> @gedlig
> 
> Already read that and we have no idea hows it going, we only know that it's being worked on - which we already knew.
> 
> I believe this is mostly for future plans because otherwise, this is usually something that would be figured out and done early on in the development cycle of a product, or in this case, a series. Separating the code into different segments is really useful when you've got as many different parts (instruments) that still use a lot of the same base code with their own custom code - like what I believe the Infinite Series does. Or I'm might be misunderstanding it.
> 
> Not sure how hard it would be to segment the code, it might not even be that hard or it's something he's planed for a while and is the last step... who knows.
> 
> The bottom line is: it's done when it's done. Sure, it's fun to speculate and we are all hopeful for a quick release, but don't go bothering Aaron (I know you didn't this time, but still, scrutinizing every little thing he writes or asks could get tedious) or looking for things that might not mean much.


Actually I'm not one for following every step he takes, just randomly saw that thread in the latest posts list, read it, seemed to imply everything going pretty smoothly with scripting, and thought why not post it here, maybe some people are interested in the coding side of these libraries.

Sorry, Aaron, if I sprung some stupid speculations inadvertently :D (ain't no way I'm tagging him, he'd do a special perpetual x10 price for the libraries for me xD)


----------



## Jonathan Moray

DANIELE said:


> From what I understand it meant specifically for IS because it should have a lot of instrument (control on every single string instrument per section), this is where shared code is useful. For IB and IW he code every instrument as a single beast (as he said) and until now he has not needed to think that way.
> 
> I'm very curious about the coding behind this technology, I think it is interesting to talk about it, without annoying Aaron of course.


Maybe so, but he's also talking about 200 instruments which is not what Infinite String will contain by itself. I'm pretty sure that he has the code segmented in the current script for general things such as GUI, Reverb, Pitch-bend, etc - and then specific code for each instrument. So when he updates he can just copy that general code to where it is in his big script and replace the general engine features easily, but it's still tedious when you have a shit-ton of instruments to update.

This would often be split so that you only have one file that each instrument needs to reference for the general stuff, something like "engine.txt" or "framework.txt" because this code is shared between all the instruments. Then you have another file called "Horn 1.txt" which contains all the code specific for that instrument which only that instrument references. This means that when you do general updates you only need to update the "engine.txt" and not "Horn 1.txt", "Horn 2.txt", Horn 3.txt", you see why this would be tedious. Or maybe he just has a "Horns.txt" where he keeps all the code for all the horns since they are not that different and all share the same parameters and general sound.

I'm not even sure if that's what he's asking, I only know the very basics of KSP, but that's what I got from it. The good thing is, I don't need to understand, although I too find it interesting.


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

gedlig said:


> Sorry, Aaron, if I sprung some stupid speculations inadvertently :D (ain't no way I'm tagging him, he'd do a special perpetual x10 price for the libraries for me xD)


+12 months for you specifically


----------



## gedlig

ChickenAndARoll said:


> +12 months for you specifically


Just enough time to save up funds and completely waste it :D

Edit: yeah, I'm just gonna stop posting nonsense


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> Maybe so, but he's also talking about 200 instruments which is not what Infinite String will contain by itself. I'm pretty sure that he has the code segmented in the current script for general things such as GUI, Reverb, Pitch-bend, etc - and then specific code for each instrument. So when he updates he can just copy that general code to where it is in his big script and replace the general engine features easily, but it's still tedious when you have a shit-ton of instruments to update.
> 
> This would often be split so that you only have one file that each instrument needs to reference for the general stuff, something like "engine.txt" or "framework.txt" because this code is shared between all the instruments. Then you have another file called "Horn 1.txt" which contains all the code specific for that instrument which only that instrument references. This means that when you do general updates you only need to update the "engine.txt" and not "Horn 1.txt", "Horn 2.txt", Horn 3.txt", you see why this would be tedious. Or maybe he just has a "Horns.txt" where he keeps all the code for all the horns since they are not that different and all share the same parameters and general sound.
> 
> I'm not even sure if that's what he's asking, I only know the very basics of KSP, but that's what I got from it. The good thing is, I don't need to understand, although I too find it interesting.


True but maybe 200 it is only a casual number that means "a lot". Anyway, useless guessing here!

I don't know about KSP but I have a little experience in coding and what you are saying is a best practice used wherever you can use it. I would do the same for maintenace purposes. I think he could share a lot between instruments, the only thing he has to divide are the reference samples I think and some other instrument specific things or settings.
I think there is more because since he seems a smart guy and he should have thinked about this early in the development of IB already.

If I could do it I really would like to spend a couple of days with Aaron looking at the technology under the hood but I agree with you that the important thing is having very good libraries as they already are.


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> From what I understand it meant specifically for IS because it should have a lot of instrument (control on every single string instrument per section), this is where shared code is useful. For IB and IW he code every instrument as a single beast (as he said) and until now he has not needed to think that way.
> 
> I'm very curious about the coding behind this technology, I think it is interesting to talk about it, without annoying Aaron of course.


I don't know anything about scripting but it made me think maybe he's trying to figure out a way to not have many instrument instances active for an ensemble like SM Strings does? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## DANIELE

Jamus said:


> I don't know anything about scripting but it made me think maybe he's trying to figure out a way to not have many instrument instances active for an ensemble like SM Strings does? 🤷‍♂️


This is the first time he is building ensemble patches but I remember he told that he will do it in a single patch and not in a multi like SM does. SM multi is another thing anyway, they are not single instances but single groups sort of, probably just to have enough variations between sub-sections. But I don't kow the technology so I'm only guessing here.


----------



## Sean J

Aaron finished IS last month.

However, in the _very second_ before he was about to click "publish" on his website, he became stuck in a impermeable temporal loop that is precisely .99999 seconds long.


----------



## MBulteau

I am in the process of building a new PC desktop for a new place to work at, and because my funds are limited I've picked a Ryzen 5 3600 CPU (6 cores, 12 threads, 3.6 GHz). 

My current CPU is an Intel core i7-3770 (4 cores, 8 threads, 3.4 Ghz), and although the numbers show clearly that there's an improvement, I've been seeing discussions on ryzen vs intel regarding core performance, and how ryzen is only useful if there is frequent multitasking going on.

My knowledge of hardware is somewhat limited, so I would like to know, considering I work on FL Studio and load up my IB and IW samples (and soon IS) on Kontakt 6 as a VST, if I am in fact going for an improvement overall (even if marginal), or if there's something I'm not seeing; if there is something FL and/or Kontakt cannot take advantage of in a Ryzen CPU, or what have you.

For reference, currently running a full orchestra with double winds only lands me in CPU overload at very few junctures, where a lot of quick notes are happening at the same time over several loud instruments, and I think my current preliminary use of Spitfire strings may be to blame for that as well. A somewhat recent upgrade from 16 to 32GB of RAM certainly helped, along with considerably reducing the number of samples.

Thank you for your time.


----------



## Tralen

MBulteau said:


> I am in the process of building a new PC desktop for a new place to work at, and because my funds are limited I've picked a Ryzen 5 3600 CPU (6 cores, 12 threads, 3.6 GHz).
> 
> My current CPU is an Intel core i7-3770 (4 cores, 8 threads, 3.4 Ghz), and although the numbers show clearly that there's an improvement, I've been seeing discussions on ryzen vs intel regarding core performance, and how ryzen is only useful if there is frequent multitasking going on.
> 
> My knowledge of hardware is somewhat limited, so I would like to know, considering I work on FL Studio and load up my IB and IW samples (and soon IS) on Kontakt 6 as a VST, if I am in fact going for an improvement overall (even if marginal), or if there's something I'm not seeing; if there is something FL and/or Kontakt cannot take advantage of in a Ryzen CPU, or what have you.
> 
> For reference, currently running a full orchestra with double winds only lands me in CPU overload at very few junctures, where a lot of quick notes are happening at the same time over several loud instruments, and I think my current preliminary use of Spitfire strings may be to blame for that as well. A somewhat recent upgrade from 16 to 32GB of RAM certainly helped, along with considerably reducing the number of samples.
> 
> Thank you for your time.


I would say you will see an improvement. In my opinion, those two processors are not even in the same league.

Increasing the number of your Kontakt instances should increase the multithreading you are looking for, as well as creating independent tracks in your project.

Edit:
Putting everything into a single Kontakt instance, or making tracks with daisy-chaining sends is the sure way to have poor multithreading.


----------



## I like music

Laughing (crying?) in 2048 buffer size...


----------



## morganwable

MBulteau said:


> I am in the process of building a new PC desktop for a new place to work at, and because my funds are limited I've picked a Ryzen 5 3600 CPU (6 cores, 12 threads, 3.6 GHz).
> 
> My current CPU is an Intel core i7-3770 (4 cores, 8 threads, 3.4 Ghz), and although the numbers show clearly that there's an improvement, I've been seeing discussions on ryzen vs intel regarding core performance, and how ryzen is only useful if there is frequent multitasking going on.
> 
> My knowledge of hardware is somewhat limited, so I would like to know, considering I work on FL Studio and load up my IB and IW samples (and soon IS) on Kontakt 6 as a VST, if I am in fact going for an improvement overall (even if marginal), or if there's something I'm not seeing; if there is something FL and/or Kontakt cannot take advantage of in a Ryzen CPU, or what have you.
> 
> For reference, currently running a full orchestra with double winds only lands me in CPU overload at very few junctures, where a lot of quick notes are happening at the same time over several loud instruments, and I think my current preliminary use of Spitfire strings may be to blame for that as well. A somewhat recent upgrade from 16 to 32GB of RAM certainly helped, along with considerably reducing the number of samples.
> 
> Thank you for your time.


I'm also not exactly an expert but:

1. FL Studio _should_ have multithreading support, which in theory means that you will see an improvement with the AMD card (in theory)

2. The bottleneck with your Spitfire libraries is likely with RAM, not CPU. Traditional libraries take up monolithic chunks of RAM - I'd argue that 32 gigs isn't even nearly enough for a full orchestra made up of things like Spitfire libraries. 64 would barely cut it unless you plan to have everything else on your computer closed. The bottleneck with modeled and semi-modeled libraries (AV, Sample Modeling, and SWAM) is the opposite - they take up ludicrously small bits of RAM, yet eat through your CPU such that the performance bottleneck is roughly equivalent, assuming your CPU and RAM are roughly equivalent to one another.

For as much future proofing as possible, you're going to want at _the very least_ 64gb of RAM, and _at least_ as powerful of a CPU as the aforementioned Ryzen. I'm personally waiting another year or so before sinking money into a home studio rig, so that hopefully by then I can afford at the very least a 5000 series Ryzen - or preferably a low-mid range Threadripper. 

I know AV has said "you won't need a Threadripper to run Infinite Strings" but my computer (intel i7 9th gen), assuming I leave Firefox and a few other things open can barely handle Infinite Brass + a handful of other libraries - haven't even added woodwinds to the template yet - so I'm not taking any chances.

Hopefully by then I might actually be able to test drive IS.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I’m setting up a 5950X machine today, as soon as I get the Infinite bundle going I’ll post what the CPU usage looks like. I hope Aaron hosts a sale soon or lets us know if there will or won’t be one, if I can save $50-100 I can definitely use that $50-100.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Russell Anderson, yes, please do let us know how it works. I'm eyeing parts for a 5900X machine myself when I can afford it.

The way Aaron has done it in the past (from what I can recall) has been he's had his own Black Friday because he'd rather have a sale when he releases a new product or new updates than cram his sales into the same spot as all the other developers. But my memory is shoddy. So depending on how far the next wave of updates is or, one might dare to hope, the next product release is, he might opt for the same thing this year and postpone his sales until he has something to release with it. But if the next updates or release won't be until summer, he will probably do a sale sometime during Black Friday. 

The bottom line is: he's done sales in the past, but when the next sale will be is anyone's guess.


----------



## Zanshin

FWIW there was a sale last year from Nov 14-Dec 1.


----------



## I like music

Aye. Also pretty sure that the very first Brass release was around Nov. Nov = Holy time in then Infinite series calendar. 


Zanshin said:


> FWIW there was a sale last year from Nov 14-Dec 1.


ee.


----------



## MBulteau

morganwable said:


> For as much future proofing as possible, you're going to want at _the very least_ 64gb of RAM, and _at least_ as powerful of a CPU as the aforementioned Ryzen.


Glad to know, considering I've just upgraded my build to include a Ryzen 5 5600g CPU instead. RAM is easy to upgrade.


Tralen said:


> I would say you will see an improvement. In my opinion, those two processors are not even in the same league.
> 
> Increasing the number of your Kontakt instances should increase the multithreading you are looking for, as well as creating independent tracks in your project.


Independent tracks as in mixer tracks?

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## Tralen

MBulteau said:


> Glad to know, considering I've just upgraded my build to include a Ryzen 5 5600g CPU instead. RAM is easy to upgrade.
> 
> Independent tracks as in mixer tracks?
> 
> Thanks for the replies.


Yes, mixer tracks. Most DAWs (including FL Studio) default to process each track on your project independently and will distribute them across the available threads on your machine. This ceases to work, however, when one track depends on the result of another track, as those tracks need to be processed in sequence. That is what I meant by "daisy-chaining sends". This is very inefficient processing-wise.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Inb4 Aaron’s November sale also includes the sudden release of IS 1.0

If I spoiled the surprise, it was just a guess. Sorry Aaron. But man I hope it’s soon (the sale, or IS release, or both)


----------



## morganwable

Just wanted to bring up something that blew my mind a little bit - I was originally under the impression that the close, medium, and ambient mics WERE studio, Bersa, and Mozarteum. I was expecting 3 mics and I got 9. 

Related to that: is there a way to set a random seed or otherwise make the under-the-hood humanization that happens automatically, deterministic?

Ideally, at least for a major film project, I'd like to export very exhaustive stems for the final mixing process, including each Infinite section (+soloists) in each of the 3 halls, or at least each mic separately. However, I'm worried that doing so in the library's current state would cause phasing or doubling if you mixed them, because the notes would be slightly different during each of the separate renders.

I know you can route the ambient mics separately, and that real-time you literally can't do more than that, but I'd like more flexibility and deterministic RNG seems like a good solution to that.


----------



## aaronventure

morganwable said:


> Just wanted to bring up something that blew my mind a little bit - I was originally under the impression that the close, medium, and ambient mics WERE studio, Bersa, and Mozarteum. I was expecting 3 mics and I got 9.


Haha, what did you think the Space menu was for? 




morganwable said:


> However, I'm worried that doing so in the library's current state would cause phasing or doubling if you mixed them, because the notes would be slightly different during each of the separate renders.


For soloists, you're likely to notice it (as you would with close mics in general) since they're pretty close to the mics. You're much less likely to run into issues with the standard positions in all rooms, simply because the distances to the mics aren't the same between the rooms, and the reflections are different.

If you're gonna mix them, it'll sound like two sections, each from its own space.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@morganwable, I don't have time to give a too much in depth answer, but right now there's no way to make any of the infinite series "deterministic" each time you press olaypt tender you will get a slightly fogferent performance.

However, if you use the built in IRs and make sure each instrument uses a unique IR and humanize the performance slightly (Infinite does this automatically but you can always add more manual humanization to make it even better) then you don't have to worry about phasing.

The only mic you can route to its own output is the surrounds sadly. Not sure why you would want a render in each space, but it's doable.


----------



## aaronventure

Russell Anderson said:


> If I spoiled the surprise, it was just a guess.


Do an Investigation check.


----------



## Russell Anderson

aaronventure said:


> Do an Investigation check.


Please give me, I am confident, an “average human” ability modifier


----------



## aaronventure

Russell Anderson said:


> Please give me, I am confident, an “average human” ability modifier


You find no evidence of Infinite Strings releasing during or around the Black Friday period, and the FAQ confirms the same. However, you do notice on the Infinite Brass Patch Notes page that Infinite Series' 3rd anniversary is less than two weeks away, thus still maintaining hope for some sort of promotion around that time.


----------



## Luka

aaronventure said:


> You find no evidence of Infinite Strings releasing during or around the Black Friday period, and the FAQ confirms the same. However, you do notice on the Infinite Brass Patch Notes page that Infinite Series' 3rd anniversary is less than two weeks away, thus still maintaining hope for some sort of promotion around that time.









Should we still hope for a 2021 release though? Or that information is no longer up to date?


----------



## Russell Anderson

aaronventure said:


> You find no evidence of Infinite Strings releasing during or around the Black Friday period, and the FAQ confirms the same. However, you do notice on the Infinite Brass Patch Notes page that Infinite Series' 3rd anniversary is less than two weeks away, thus still maintaining hope for some sort of promotion around that time.


Thanks for the pointer on the anniversary… “average human” may have been a stretch, to be fair

Unless you’re saying that this Strings instrument is a difficult boss, in which case, I move out of sight and try to start channelling “Write ‘request NDA-for-hearing-strings-audio’ email”


----------



## aaronventure

Luka said:


> Should we still hope for a 2021 release though? Or that information is no longer up to date?


If only Russell there rolled a 20


----------



## Trash Panda

Good to see you back, Aaron. We missed you and your random appearances to threaten +1 month.


----------



## Bollen

Luka said:


> Should we still hope for a 2021 release though? Or that information is no longer up to date?


I think it depends how much it's being humanized... If the slider is set to maximum we could be talking end of 2022...


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> You find no evidence of Infinite Strings releasing during or around the Black Friday period, and the FAQ confirms the same. However, you do notice on the Infinite Brass Patch Notes page that Infinite Series' 3rd anniversary is less than two weeks away, thus still maintaining hope for some sort of promotion around that time.


OMG, so only now do we discover that there are secret clues all over the site. We need to step up investigative skills.


----------



## I like music

He has resurfaced. This means whatever he was working on, is complete. 

Strings confirmed.


----------



## Ivan Duch

aaronventure said:


> If only Russell there rolled a 20


I'm liking these DnD references...


----------



## Jamus

Yes, good to see you Aaron 🙂

Now get back to work..! 👨‍💻 It puts the code in its strings or else it gets the hose again 😶


----------



## ansthenia

I like to think that, just before coming here to read this thread, Aaron thinks to himself _"Well, guess I'd better check on the bitches"_


----------



## vicontrolu

I heard Aaron and figured I would just post in this thread. 

The cult is strong


----------



## Vlzmusic

If each one of you guys would post one naked Infinite demo each week, you would help Aaron sell twice as much, and make the strings come faster. I am, for one, desperately looking for dry woodwinds examples, and there are so few....


----------



## Tralen

Vlzmusic said:


> If each one of you guys would post one naked Infinite demo each week, you would help Aaron sell twice as much, and make the strings come faster. I am, for one, desperately looking for dry woodwinds examples, and there are so few....


Naked Infinite demo? Each week? Dry woodwinds?

I'm afraid to ask, but... Do I need a camera?


----------



## Russell Anderson

Vlzmusic said:


> If each one of you guys would post one naked Infinite demo each week, you would help Aaron sell twice as much, and make the strings come faster. I am, for one, desperately looking for dry woodwinds examples, and there are so few....


I will get on it as soon as I can.


----------



## Vlzmusic

Tralen said:


> Naked Infinite demo? Each week? Dry woodwinds?
> 
> I'm afraid to ask, but... Do I need a camera?


Not if you are into blind listening...


----------



## obey

Infinite Percussion brings us OnlyFlams?


----------



## morganwable

obey said:


> Infinite Percussion brings us OnlyFlams?


Infinite (G) Strings
Infinite Wood
Infinite Ass


----------



## I like music

We have him here. Don't let him escape. Keep him here somehow. Trap his soul.

Aaron, did you ever resolve things with the 'big hall' you were sampling the IRs for?

Thanks!


----------



## gedlig

Adding to the IR question: any chance of capturing Maida Vale, maybe also adding outriggers to the available mics?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

gedlig said:


> Adding to the IR question: any chance of capturing Maida Vale, maybe also adding outriggers to the available mics?


That would be great. The more spaces we have at our disposal, the better. But just looking at the amount of IRs recorded and needed for these libraries, recording a new location is a HUGE undertaking so I wouldn't hold my breath, but I will still add my voice to the suggestion. I would especially be interested in something more akin to a scoring stage.

It's worth considering that for most of these high-profile venues, there are usually restrictions when it comes to recording IRs, but since Maida Vale is about to close there's a good chance that might not apply either way. Sadly, I would also guess it would be a much more costly endeavour than recording in these more secluded spaces that Aaron has already recorded IRs in.


----------



## axb312

NeonMediaKJT said:


> sorry about that i keep forgetting i have it on vi control, lol


Hi ,

Soundcloud link not working...:(


----------



## Jamus

Everytime I window shop for vst libraries now as soon as I see that interface with all the articulations and keyswitches I immediately close the page like nah mate never again.


----------



## Aitcpiano

I want Infinite Strings please.


----------



## muziksculp

Aitcpiano said:


> I want Infinite Strings please.


Shaken not Stirred Please.


----------



## Chris Richter

Hey there,
I am in the middle of a project right now and I am a little stuck to get good staccato notes out of the IW clarinets. Would you happy Inifnite people maybe help me out and take a look at the midi data to see if it can be improved in any way? I have attached the midi files for clarinet 1 and 2 and also an audio reference for the track itself so you know what I need it for. 
I used the bersa hall preset, Clarinet 2 has humanization enabled. No changes from the presets.

I have a hard time to get my head around how this works. From what I can see the Velocity sets the loudness of the note attack, CC1 controls the sustain and note lenght... well how short I get. However CC1 and note length influence each other a lot. 
Any advice on how to use IW for best results?

I just played around a little more and with setting CC1 to roughly 1/3rd of the note attack worlks a lot better. Still, I feel like I have a great instrument at hand but don't know how to play it.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Ah, yeah. You've got doots when you need dits.

I don't own infinite yet. Can you do dits? I think you should be able to


----------



## Russell Anderson

What does this do?


----------



## Chris Richter

Thanks for the suggestion! Unfortunately nothing really. The notes are too short.
View attachment Too short.mp3


Here's my improved version:
View attachment Improved.mp3

I think that's already better. As dsecribed I just set CC1 to be 1/3rd of the velocity and played around with note length a little.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Sounds like Infinite dits are go! In my personal opinion I'd shuffle it a bit with the velocities, like, in eighths:

65 50 75 45 (in percentages; but I think these numbers will probably communicate the intent regardless)

that plus the dynamics, man, you have so much control. So much! I feel like I _need_ a breath controller just to make sense of it. I recognize it's really not needed, but I'm an oboist and not having one with this level of control almost seems like a waste of ability.


----------



## Nando Florestan

For sharp staccatos, use higher velocities (determining the attack) and lower CC1 values (so the intensity goes way down soon).


----------



## Mikro93

Nando Florestan said:


> For sharp staccatos, use higher velocities (determining the attack) and lower CC1 values (so the intensity goes way down soon).


This.

But I feel like there is only so much you can do with IW as far as shorts go


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Chris Richter, I'm still unsure of what type of short / sound you're looking for. Do you have a sample library with the right type of short or a live recording that we could use as a reference?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Here are three versions of short notes. The last two would fit something like this the best, I believe.


----------



## Chris Richter

@Jonathan Moray Ohh, that is super helpful, thanks a lot!
I think I like 1 the best. 1-001 is too short. 1-002 might also work but is also rather short. Maybe there is a middle ground between 1 and 1-002? Would you mind to share the midi?

@storyteller very kindly rendered a BWW version for me. Maybe that can help as a reference?
View attachment BWW example.mp3


----------



## Chris Richter

Mikro93 said:


> This.
> 
> But I feel like there is only so much you can do with IW as far as shorts go


I don't know. I feel like it is more my inability to shape the midi the right way which in turn has to do with learning the instrument at hand.

I don't like BWW too much in the example above. I feel like i hear the same sample over and over again. Also the tone is pretty "gritty". To be fair the midi hasn't been adjusted, maybe a different velocity layer would have souted this piece better, who knows.

I think IW is super cool as it has an infinite amount of reshaping a short note which makes it great for this kind of stuff (at least in theory).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Chris Richter, thanks for the reference.

This is the closest I could get with just a few minutes of work. BWW and IW are pretty far apart when it comes to tone. IW has a much more pure sound (too pure in a lot of cases) while BWW has a lot of noises, breath, clicks and lacks (too much in some cases). I had to add a little high-end to the Clarinet to make it sound closer to the BWW sound. I feel like most of the woodwinds in IW sound a bit muffled and are given a better "shine" by giving them some more "air".


----------



## Chris Richter

@Jonathan Moray That's pretty cool! Would you mind to share the midi data?

I actually prefer the tone of IW. I agree that BWW has too much "grit". All the more I am thankful that @storyteller provided the BWW render as it lead me to further investigate what IW can do.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Chris Richter, absolutely. It's rather simple really, but as you said, you need to learn the finesse and sweet spots for the instruments since you will have to do the performances yourself.


----------



## Chris Richter

Thank you very much @Jonathan Moray and everyone else who tried to help


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Mikro93, anything specific you feel IW shorts can't do well? Here's a little short test between different length short notes. It took me a couple of seconds to make, and I think it sounds pretty lively and overall at least alright.


----------



## PerryD

It's always weird to do Christmas music in September. That's usually when I get clients asking for it. Ha! I did this short Jingle bells thing for a segment of a friend's video parody. He said, "do it like a vintage Bugs Bunny cartoon." Infinite woodwinds.


----------



## mutex

I need a hint as to if Infinite Strings is still coming this year.

C'mon, it's Black Friday.
I need to know if I use the money to pleasure myself with instant gratification or hold it back for IS 😁


----------



## Getsumen

mutex said:


> I need a hint as to if Infinite Strings is still coming this year.
> 
> C'mon, it's Black Friday.
> I need to know if I use the money to pleasure myself with instant gratification or hold it back for IS 😁





aaronventure said:


> You find no evidence of Infinite Strings releasing during or around the Black Friday period, and the FAQ confirms the same. However, you do notice on the Infinite Brass Patch Notes page that Infinite Series' 3rd anniversary is less than two weeks away, thus still maintaining hope for some sort of promotion around that time.


Gotta hold it back for a few more weeks soldier!


----------



## Luka

Still nothing for Black Friday?


----------



## Mikro93

Luka said:


> Still nothing for Black Friday?


+1 month


----------



## DANIELE

Mikro93 said:


> +1 month


So, Christmas?


----------



## Tralen

DANIELE said:


> So, Christmas?


Is it still Black December or are we already at Black January?


----------



## Luka

aaronventure said:


> However, you do notice on the Infinite Brass Patch Notes page that Infinite Series' 3rd anniversary is less than two weeks away, thus still maintaining hope for some sort of promotion around that time.


----------



## Denkii

@aaronventure I just rolled a natural 20 and demand answers :D


----------



## PSS

Luka said:


> Still nothing for Black Friday?


I'm wondering the same thing. Also, some said that it is possible that there might be an anniversary sale, but last year it was at Nov. 14th until end of November. Now nothing. Also, if Strings are coming soon, I'd be very interested in bundle pricing. If I get now brass+woodwinds as bundle, can I get any discount on upcoming strings?


----------



## Luka

PSS said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. Also, some said that it is possible that there might be an anniversary sale, but last year it was at Nov. 14th until end of November. Now nothing. Also, if Strings are coming soon, I'd be very interested in bundle pricing. If I get now brass+woodwinds as bundle, can I get any discount on upcoming strings?


I think so… It says this here:


----------



## Jonathan Moray

PSS said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. Also, some said that it is possible that there might be an anniversary sale, but last year it was at Nov. 14th until end of November. Now nothing. Also, if Strings are coming soon, I'd be very interested in bundle pricing. If I get now brass+woodwinds as bundle, can I get any discount on upcoming strings?


If you own one or both, Strings will be $299. It's stated in the FAQ.

Well, technically tomorrow is the anniversary (27th) of Infinite Brass, but Aaron has always played it a bit fast and loose with the Black Friday dates when he does sales. I believe there will be a sale, he seemed to at least plan for it, but it might literally be "around" Black Friday so a few days after in this case.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Anyone seen the change on the website?


----------



## Luka

Jonathan Moray said:


> Anyone seen the change on the website?


Oh yes indeed!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Luka said:


> Oh yes indeed!


Not what I was talking about, sadly, the change I saw was not the news I was looking for. But at least I hope it will be a good product once it's released.

But the sale is at least good news, maybe we will get some new demos and users around here now.

Edit: It's even cheaper than last year.


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Anyone seen the change on the website?


Yes, it is sadly there.


----------



## Pablocrespo

So, no discount on the brass alone? Only the bundle?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> Yes, it is sadly there.


The funny thing is, for the last couple of months I was thinking about posting something similar just to get people riled up as a joke since there was a time... last year I believe when we still thought the late 2020 date was a possibility... when everyone was making jokes as if the strings had just been either released or delayed.

I didn't do it though because I hated when others did. Sadly this time it's not a joke.



Pablocrespo said:


> So, no discount on the brass alone? Only the bundle?


Doesn't look like it.


----------



## Russell Anderson

He did say he was trying to make the strings patch actually contain non-multi ensemble patches, right? I can't imagine it's easy, remotely.

One thing is for sure, though, I'm going for Pacific over MSS, and waiting for IS to do MSS things. I hereby send my energy to Aaron.

Also I hereby send him money.




100% downloading immediately and trying stuff out! WOOOOOO


Also, one purchase left for BF (Pacific)! I never thought I'd make it this far


----------



## Zanshin

Russell Anderson said:


> Also I hereby send him money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 100% downloading immediately and trying stuff out! WOOOOOO
> 
> 
> Also, one purchase left for BF (Pacific)! I never thought I'd make it this far


Congrats man


----------



## PSS

Luka said:


> Oh yes indeed!


Nice. Got one!


----------



## TimCox

Man, @aaronventure is so cool


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> Anyone seen the change on the website?


I was waiting for it. Too much +1 month.


----------



## gum

2022...very disappointing.
I wish I knew sooner.
I've been waiting since before Covid and will change my plans.
Ideals and reality are different, always.


----------



## PSS

gum said:


> 2022...very disappointing.
> I wish I knew sooner.
> I've been waiting since before Covid and will change my plans.
> Ideals and reality are different, always.


Better later than pressure-release with tons of bugs and oddities. Striving for highest possible quality is much better (for me at least) than rushing products out.


----------



## gedlig

Anyone know for how long the sale will last?


----------



## Luka

gedlig said:


> Anyone know for how long the sale will last?


I was just gonna ask that haha


----------



## Marcube

gum said:


> 2022...very disappointing.
> I wish I knew sooner.
> I've been waiting since before Covid and will change my plans.
> Ideals and reality are different, always.


For what it's worth I used to be a programmer and whenever my boss asked me how long something would take, I literally never knew how anyone knew how long something takes!  But that might be a good sign maybe. Because I don't wonder that hard, detailed, focused work of the kind Aaron is doing, might displace that other kind of attention which is able to broadly judge how long a thing might take.


----------



## Jamus

Haha waits till black Friday to update to 2022. Our dude Aaron is a professional troll 👌

The question now is have we got time to purchase some gear in a fit of G.A.S and still have the time to save funds for IS when it drops!?


----------



## DANIELE

Jamus said:


> Haha waits till black Friday to update to 2022. Our dude Aaron is a professional troll 👌
> 
> The question now is have we got time to purchase some gear in a fit of G.A.S and still have the time to save funds for IS when it drops!?


Wait, it could be 01/01/2022!


----------



## Trash Panda

Anyone else relieved from the pressure taken off their wallets? 🤣


----------



## Zanshin

Trash Panda said:


> Anyone else relieved from the pressure taken off their wallets? 🤣


He basically confirmed it wasn’t coming out this year not long ago? It’ll be an instant buy for me but I guess I’m less hyped than most because I figure it’ll be a couple of iterations before I use it in anger. 

There’s been a few delays, and sale disappointments that have taken pressure off my wallet too though, so I get that!


----------



## mutex

Will Infinite Strings be Solo stuff, or Ensemble?

Depending on that I might get Audio Imperia Solo or Areia to complement it.


----------



## muziksculp

I think Strings are a much bigger challenge than Brass, and Woodwinds, for the Infinite Series. 

I would not expect them out for quite a while, and that's surely good for my wallet, Plus, there are so many Strings libraries to choose from, and more coming out soon.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

mutex said:


> Will Infinite Strings be Solo stuff, or Ensemble?
> 
> Depending on that I might get Audio Imperia Solo or Areia to complement it.


It will all be a solo player. Meaning: 60 individual players to mix and match to make whatever size ensemble you'd like.

There will apparently be ensemble patches, but behind the scene, it's still all just solos.



> Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. Also, all 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch.


----------



## mutex

Jonathan Moray said:


> It will all be a solo player. Meaning: 60 individual players to mix and match to make whatever size ensemble you'd like.
> 
> There will apparently be ensemble patches, but behind the scene, it's still all just solos.


Nice, so I will be able to set humanization to 900% on one of the 2nd violinists to make him act drunk and add realism to the whole string section 😁👍


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> Anyone else relieved from the pressure taken off their wallets? 🤣


----------



## DANIELE

mutex said:


> Nice, so I will be able to set humanization to 900% on one of the 2nd violinists to make him act drunk and add realism to the whole string section 😁👍


Yeah, like it starts playing after all the rest of the string section already finished and they are all in their beds.


----------



## I like music

I'm alright with the strings news.

I'm super curious about if/when there will be any brass or winds updates. I don't think brass needs it/much but I think Aaron indicated that he was applying the learnings from Brass 2.0 into the winds.

Anyhow, for those of you who are getting the sale/bundle pricing, enjoy!


----------



## SirKen

Is it normal to get charged taxes in USD while ordering from the online store while not living in US?


----------



## DANIELE

I like music said:


> I'm alright with the strings news.
> 
> I'm super curious about if/when there will be any brass or winds updates. I don't think brass needs it/much but I think Aaron indicated that he was applying the learnings from Brass 2.0 into the winds.
> 
> Anyhow, for those of you who are getting the sale/bundle pricing, enjoy!


I'd like to see an IW update soon. In the mean time I'll enjoy the SMS update (hoping to see it for Christmas).


----------



## Tralen

Honestly, I'm much more interested in the Woodwinds update than the Strings, right now.

(don't hurt me)


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> Honestly, I'm much more interested in the Woodwinds update than the Strings, right now.
> 
> (don't hurt me)


Heathen! You've stepped over the line this time and I won't listen to this heresy anymore. I'm getting my pitchfork.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Heathen! You've stepped over the line this time and I won't listen to this heresy anymore. I'm getting my pitchfork.


Need some Herrmannesque strings for this scene.

I wonder if Infinite Strings would be able to perform it.

Guess we'll find out on 01/01/2022 :D


----------



## morganwable

In all honesty, I'm kinda pissed that he waited this long to update the site to say 2022.
And this is key - NOT mad about the delay itself, just about being led on about the ETA for so long.

I could have been happily composing with SMS for months on end at this point, having already saved up enough to buy IS like, at some point next year or whatever. Instead, I held out. And now I feel like that was legit for nothing.

Not to mention that with vaccines rolling out, the Sample Modeling team could have seen fit to end their ongoing site-wide sale at essentially any moment this whole time. Not that the pandemic is over per se, just that a lot of people are acting like it is.

I'm buying SMS and Woodwinds ASAP either way.

PS.
Uh... is the sale over already?? I'm not seeing it on the IW page.


----------



## mutex

morganwable said:


> Uh... is the sale over already?? I'm not seeing it on the IW page.


It's 30% on the bundle only.








Infinite Series - Bundles — Aaron Venture


Interested in the entire series, or you already own an Infinite Series product? Save by purchasing product bundles and learn more about cross-grading here!




www.aaronventure.com


----------



## DivingInSpace

morganwable said:


> In all honesty, I'm kinda pissed that he waited this long to update the site to say 2022.
> And this is key - NOT mad about the delay itself, just about being led on about the ETA for so long.
> 
> I could have been happily composing with SMS for months on end at this point, having already saved up enough to buy IS like, at some point next year or whatever. Instead, I held out. And now I feel like that was legit for nothing.
> 
> Not to mention that with vaccines rolling out, the Sample Modeling team could have seen fit to end their ongoing site-wide sale at essentially any moment this whole time. Not that the pandemic is over per se, just that a lot of people are acting like it is.
> 
> I'm buying SMS and Woodwinds ASAP either way.
> 
> PS.
> Uh... is the sale over already?? I'm not seeing it on the IW page.


I honestly find it incredibly silly to be mad at Aaron because you choose to wait for a library instead of purchasing another. It's been clear that the development for this is a tough one, and considering the current situation, there are lots of reasons it could be delayed.


----------



## muziksculp

I like music said:


> Guess we'll find out on 01/01/2022 :D


Did you mean 2023 ?


----------



## morganwable

DivingInSpace said:


> I honestly find it incredibly silly to be mad at Aaron because you choose to wait for a library instead of purchasing another. It's been clear that the development for this is a tough one, and considering the current situation, there are lots of reasons it could be delayed.


That's a totally fair point. Still, it would have been very helpful to know, as soon as the delay was known (even erring on the side of caution/potentially giving somebody a pleasant surprise if it's early), to have let people know. But at the end of the day, it's whatever.

As a sign of good faith, I suppose, I just bought IW 😂

I'm looking forward to deleting more and more last-gen libraries as time goes on.


----------



## Vlzmusic

DivingInSpace said:


> I honestly find it incredibly silly to be mad at Aaron because you choose to wait for a library instead of purchasing another. It's been clear that the development for this is a tough one, and considering the current situation, there are lots of reasons it could be delayed.


I honestly find there is nothing silly in assuming a poster inscription "2021" to mean just that. We don't know the situation, we don't know whether its a delay, we don't know the reasons.


----------



## Jamus

DANIELE said:


> Yeah, like it starts playing after all the rest of the string section already finished and they are all in their beds.


Keep the release part of the sample to get that one random burp round robin 🤘


----------



## biomuse

I’ve been around the [Which Brass??] merry-go-round quite a bit in the past few days. Berlin, Synchron, CSB, Cine - or Infinite? 

I’m starting to lean Infinite, because while if the project is **Trailermuzic McDeadline** and the need is to work loud, fast, with quick realism, I have no doubt that I’d be [super] happy with any, particularly Synchron which is just bursting with shiny, punchy power and detail.

However, my compositional brain is often in the chamber orchestra, avant-garde space and I don’t see another major brass package that feels like it could handle that to the same degree of depth as Infinite. (Yes, @doctoremmet, Xsample is in that realm and if @Hans Josef deigns ever to have another sale, I’ll be looking very hard at it.) It seems to be a signal indication of its flexibility that Infinite can do a credible job of the swaggering rips and flutters in the Bond theme, an extended virtuosic trumpet solo, classical standards *and* Trailermuzic.com.

But Now: what about the “sonority problem?” It does seem as if some ensemble patches in Infinite ring the IRs in a slightly false way from time to time; certain moments sound just a little static and synthy; but is that a solvable problem with some finessing or playing in of individual parts, or is it a frequent issue? @Soundbed definitlely interested in your comments as well here b/c if I recall you have IB and use it.


----------



## biomuse

P.S. yeah I should probably go and read this 200+ page thread for preexisting discussions of this issue…


----------



## Soundbed

biomuse said:


> @Soundbed definitlely interested in your comments


hi!

Haven't played with the brass for a while. I've been trying to learn better strings writing lately. I am a very rhythm-oriented person and this forum has re-introduced me to counterpoint and harmony. So as a getting-older adult I'm trying to re-learn some harmonic and contrapuntal vocabulary ... which, while perfectly appropriate for brass has me hankering for string legato and lyrical woodwinds more than the punctuated, braaamsy brass I've done for the past couple years.

So...

I was playing with Infinite Woodwinds last night.

And it was really making me question whether I want to spend on Berlin Woodwinds.

?

But here's the brutally short answer, today:

Infinite Woodwinds is amazing — absolutely amazing — with short notes and fast or note-changing passages. I basically was slamming the keyboard in a syncopated way and making jazz that (yes with a little finesse of the MIDI) would have fooled many. Getting something lifelike or just super cool sounding was a huge release and I spent a ton of time jamming.

Not only "fast" passages. Any time a note transition to another note, Infinite Woodwinds is fabulous, and I remember IB being great with that as well. Fabulous really seems like the _bestest_ word for it.

And every new note is great too.

So, any short note, or, new note (transition) is great.

BUT ...

When I was going for longer more lyrical things, it was close and not quite what I wanted to be smoking.

For a beat or two, at a moderate tempo, holding notes sounds fine, even great.

But as soon as I held a note for "a while" it felt like I needed more hands to control ... something.

And ultimately it either sounded like it needed a human's "breath" — or — to be less "static" as you say, which is to say moving in a too-predictable fashion.

Which some people abbreviate as synthy but I don't like that word as much as saying "too predictable". Synths can sound great and unpredictable and organic and wonderful and lovely so calling disliked orchestral instruments synthy as a criticism seems like an unnecessary slight to the many wonderful synth performers on the planet.

:emoji_angel: (that's supposed to be an angel emoticon ... it sort of looks like a cotton top tamarin with a halo on my screen, but what do I know about heaven?)


And yet I don't want random fluctuations in sustained notes, of course.

I want a player with years of experience to craft my phrases.

Sadly I am not (usually) that player.

It makes me feel like I could probably do some "expressive" vibrato automation or progressive vibrato ... and maybe I could. But I would hope a sampled package would have a player that does that for me (I would hope).

So, I am left again trying to figure out if I want to use Infinite Woodwinds for anything that involves more transitions and note starts than long, held notes (proportionally) or learning how to automate whatever it takes to give life to held notes (it's not only the mod wheel).

The above was a meditation on Infinite Woodwinds ... it might apply to Infinite Brass as well. Certainly not meant as a criticism, but more as an attempt to reach out to the infinite and try to figure out when I want "those Williams' piccolo runs" what to reach for ... in fact, I usually don't write longer held woodwind parts anyway.

So maybe it's fine. It's fine. Players only have so much breath. They have to stop playing to breathe sometime, right? I'll simply write lines that don't have a lot of sustained held notes. Or if I do, I might buy a sample package where there's a sampled player who has spent more years than me learning how to breathe into their instrument and make it sound like wisdom.

What do I know of heaven?


----------



## Zanshin

Well-put


----------



## biomuse

@Soundbed that’s a great (and unexpectedly moving) answer. Doesn’t help my issues, but great nonetheless.  I had forgotten that you’ve been moving in a more woodwindwardly direction recently. We’re in agreement on the tone of IW - that one really does have some pretty obvious sonority issues and I’m more than happy enough with the experienced wisdom issuing from the pipes of the Cinewinds series that I’m not looking elsewhere (other than Xsamples) for those for now.

IB, however, at least *seems* to have crossed a bit of a Rubicon with the last update, such that I now hear more plausibility than before. I’m wondering whether that’s the experience of those using it, and whether it holds up in a small ensemble situation, using the “extended” techniques that are possible with this style of VI. 

I’m settled into the expectation that I’m going to need to go breath controller or iPad or leap motion to really have any hope of playing these instruments effectively. I have just enough experience (or hubris) to think that might result in something more than unlistenable noise.


----------



## mutex

Just noticed that the crossgrade price from IB to IW is actually pretty amazing.

I also own IW now.


----------



## Soundbed

biomuse said:


> @Soundbed that’s a great (and unexpectedly moving) answer. Doesn’t help my issues, but great nonetheless.  I had forgotten that you’ve been moving in a more woodwindwardly direction recently. We’re in agreement on the tone of IW - that one really does have some pretty obvious sonority issues and I’m more than happy enough with the experienced wisdom issuing from the pipes of the Cinewinds series that I’m not looking elsewhere (other than Xsamples) for those for now.
> 
> IB, however, at least *seems* to have crossed a bit of a Rubicon with the last update, such that I now hear more plausibility than before. I’m wondering whether that’s the experience of those using it, and whether it holds up in a small ensemble situation, using the “extended” techniques that are possible with this style of VI.
> 
> I’m settled into the expectation that I’m going to need to go breath controller or iPad or leap motion to really have any hope of playing these instruments effectively. I have just enough experience (or hubris) to think that might result in something more than unlistenable noise.


sounds like you're more or less on board, and it's only a matter of time.

happy my offering to the Internets didn't dissuade you.

i might need to grab a wind controller as well. i wasn't sure if i needed one ... ... but i assume i do...? (I don't have one, yet).

my four years of french horn in high school band taught me that 16 year old me didn't know intonation for shiz.

*jump cut*

I think my last set of thoughts about IB basically consisted of ... "it's infinite!" like I could re-play the same part over and over and get a different sound each time, which was so different from all my other sample instruments that it was worth the experience, for me ... I mean maybe not holy grail but definitely wow


----------



## Nando Florestan

So about adding movement to the woodwinds, I think the kind of movement we may want, especially in the oboe family, isn't so much changing vibrato or dynamics, but formants. I am saying this after realizing that Audio Modeling woodwinds have a formant slider which is essential to avoid the same issue.

I wonder if we can just set a movable EQ and automate it to get more or less the same effect. Move the frequency up and down slowly to emulate formant shift. Been meaning to try this out, but haven't had time. If anyone else would like to try this...


----------



## Russell Anderson

I cheated a little bit @Soundbed as I’m supposed to be PC building, but I loaded up eh/bassoon and french horn, and I think the longs have to be phrased with vibrato speed and vibrato and dynamics to sell you the way a traditionally recorded player does in a library. Which comes with its strengths for a few reasons, but I'll agree think traditional libraries are better designed to much more effortlessly give you realistic performances on slower passages, the way the players tend to phrase when being sampled I think lends itself to slow. So workflow wise I tentatively agree it’s much easier to program slow music with e.g. Cinewinds, BWW etc, and the space is also generally a plus.

Caveat being the phrasing won’t always be how you want, and so while you’d have to program _all_ of the phrasing in Infinite, you’d be able to “lean” into certain lines in a way not really possible before, and personally I think the English Horn and bassoon sound really fantastic in Infinite, what was part of what made me think, “okay, this is the one”.

If the music being delivered is samples, especially if you can play it in, I think Infinite is a good selection for a final render if you're willing to take the time. Any long+short+dynamic (“lyrical”, maybe) passages I think the infinite workflow would even be easier, and the results with no crossfading and phasing are, to me, pretty shockingly good. No other sample library has legatos that work this well, aside from JB's 8^)

And since I didn't say it explicitly, I think the vibrato sounds really good. I started laughing after a few minutes of playing the EH because the performance was.... pretty much the best I've ever heard from a sample library, ever, I got giddy. I can do most of the same things I can do on an actual oboe/english horn, in terms of phrasing, in this library. The only thing missing is below, and it is such a small fish (but no small fish for Aaron)


----------



## Russell Anderson

Nando Florestan said:


> So about adding movement to the woodwinds, I think the kind of movement we may want, especially in the oboe family, isn't so much changing vibrato or dynamics, but formants. I am saying this after realizing that Audio Modeling woodwinds have a formant slider which is essential to avoid the same issue.
> 
> I wonder if we can just set a movable EQ and automate it to get more or less the same effect. Move the frequency up and down slowly to emulate formant shift. Been meaning to try this out, but haven't had time. If anyone else would like to try this...


This was something I almost wrote as my only criticism, and I think it would have to be a filter indeed since the sample count would increase exponentially otherwise. And no matter how it was implemented, it wouldn’t be super easy workflow wise unless you could control it with “bite” input in reverse; for instance on the double reeds I’d like to be able to open their mouth a bit more lol. Well, sometimes; part of phrasing is formant manipulation or “vocalization” which is sometimes more of a blending thing but also sometimes a color thing, it’s like the “sub-dynamics” slider, you can open up the sound before actually opening up the sound to make dynamic growth even more expressive, or at the same dynamic just use a fuller vs. a more relaxed (I hesitate to use the word “thinner”) timbre as another tool for expression


----------



## biomuse

Russell Anderson said:


> This was something I almost wrote as my only criticism, and I think it would have to be a filter indeed since the sample count would increase exponentially otherwise. And no matter how it was implemented, it wouldn’t be super easy workflow wise unless you could control it with “bite” input in reverse; for instance on the double reeds I’d like to be able to open their mouth a bit more lol. Well, sometimes; part of phrasing is formant manipulation or “vocalization” which is sometimes more of a blending thing but also sometimes a color thing, it’s like the “sub-dynamics” slider, you can open up the sound before actually opening up the sound to make dynamic growth even more expressive, or at the same dynamic just use a fuller vs. a more relaxed (I hesitate to use the word “thinner”) timbre as another tool for expression


Good points - From AV's video, I notice there's a slider that lets you reduce dynamic range such that timbre but not level changes with modwheel/breath/etc input. This struck me as a kind of "solo mode switch," for points where the instrument is front and center and you need to be free to modulate more without changing level. Does using it help with this?


----------



## mutex

biomuse said:


> for points where the instrument is front and center and you need to be free to modulate more without changing level


Wouldn't a compressor help in this case?


----------



## Russell Anderson

biomuse said:


> Good points - From AV's video, I notice there's a slider that lets you reduce dynamic range such that timbre but not level changes with modwheel/breath/etc input. This struck me as a kind of "solo mode switch," for points where the instrument is front and center and you need to be free to modulate more without changing level. Does using it help with this?


It may at some dynamics, I’ll have to experiment. On a macro-scale it sounds similar to a filter being opened up, but on a micro scale and especially at specific dynamic levels it might do something useful. I'm back to building my PC now, which I need to finish tonight, so it'll be probably days or even a week before I can get back to testing nitty gritty stuff like this. All in all honestly I am pretty floored with how good infinite sounds when it's performed.



mutex said:


> Wouldn't a compressor help in this case?


That's basically how dynamics sliders are likened in the libraries they're included in, the benefit (or difference) being that it's on the per-sample level so there is no time-related element to it, it just levels out the volume differences at the source.

What might be interesting is observing how the harmonic content changes depending on mouth+throat cavity shape and size. It might be a little complex for something like infinite, or maybe not (and I'm not sure if it's worth it for Aaron to work on it, at least right now) but it's definitely in modelling territory


----------



## Batrawi




----------



## mutex

So, the samples in IB seem to have multiple attacks in them. Take a Cimbasso for instance. If I play a very slow attack with maximum dynamic, I don't get a smooth continuous sound, but a complex attack with kind of a "tonguing" in between.

Is this a natural characteristic of brass instruments? I don't hear this kind of attack in other libraries.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

biomuse said:


> I’ve been around the [Which Brass??] merry-go-round quite a bit in the past few days. Berlin, Synchron, CSB, Cine - or Infinite?
> 
> I’m starting to lean Infinite, because while if the project is **Trailermuzic McDeadline** and the need is to work loud, fast, with quick realism, I have no doubt that I’d be [super] happy with any, particularly Synchron which is just bursting with shiny, punchy power and detail.
> 
> However, my compositional brain is often in the chamber orchestra, avant-garde space and I don’t see another major brass package that feels like it could handle that to the same degree of depth as Infinite. (Yes, @doctoremmet, Xsample is in that realm and if @Hans Josef deigns ever to have another sale, I’ll be looking very hard at it.) It seems to be a signal indication of its flexibility that Infinite can do a credible job of the swaggering rips and flutters in the Bond theme, an extended virtuosic trumpet solo, classical standards *and* Trailermuzic.com.
> 
> But Now: what about the “sonority problem?” It does seem as if some ensemble patches in Infinite ring the IRs in a slightly false way from time to time; certain moments sound just a little static and synthy; but is that a solvable problem with some finessing or playing in of individual parts, or is it a frequent issue? @Soundbed definitlely interested in your comments as well here b/c if I recall you have IB and use it.


I know you didn't specifically ask for my opinion, but I will give it anyway and do with it what you will.

First of all, there are no ensemble patches in Infinite, you create you're own by playing multiple solo instruments. This creates the effect of an ensemble playing together, but without the real-world intricacies that playing in an ensemble comes with which makes the sound of Infinite less real (since it's not recorded as an ensemble), and in some cases, even hard to work with if you're going for absolute realism. But then again, traditionally recorded libraries have plenty of other problems when it comes to realism.

What you do get in return is the ability to do true divisi, flexible ensemble size, phase-aligned samples, and much more.

It's hard to say where the sonority of Infinite lands compared to other libraries or recordings because it's a lot more complex to sum up in a couple of words. For one, each instrument is different and some sound better than others. For example, the trumpets sound great but if you have trumpets a2 playing in the higher dynamic range they can sometimes sound a bit phasey in the upper-frequencies I find. Phase is not inherently bad, it's a real-world phenomenon that is what creates the sound of an ensemble. But natural phase, what we hear when playing listening to a recording in a real space, sounds much better and... well, natural than the digital phase that we often get with samples when crossfading or having overlapping instruments. Sound waves in a real space with a real ensemble bounce of each other and cancel each outer out in extremely complex ways that are hard to mimic in the digital domain - at least as of now.

I find the horns sound great when played as an ensemble as do the trombones as do the trumpets and as do most of the other instruments - but not always since Infinite doesn't playback the same way every time sometimes you get more phase and sometimes less, but I've never found it to be extremely bad.

The fact that all the players in each group (horns, trumpets, trombones, etc) sound very much the same without a big difference in tone between them only adds to the problem because the signals are too similar. This is somewhat helped by the multitude of different impulse responses which all sound slightly different. That's why it's important to never have two instruments use the same IR or you will get pretty bad phasing.

Something to keep in mind is that the closer miced the instruments playing in unison are, the more phasing you will most likely get. This is true in real life as well. Adding reverb which is usually somewhat non-linear will make each instrument sound more different making it less likely to have an unpleasant phase.

To answer your question:
I would venture a guess and say that what most people find "synthy" is the phasey sound that sometimes is apparent in the ensemble sound of Infinite. Aaron is always working to improve things and I think it can only get better. Playing in each part with slight timing and CC variation will help mitigate the problem a lot.

Here's a little mockup I made. The first version is Berlin Brass playing John Williams's "Olympic Fanfare" (That one is made by someone here on the forum. I won't mention any names in case they don't want me to) and the second is Infinite Brass (Made by me). I had to humanize this by hand because I'm not a good enough player, nor a patient enough person to play in each part separately so it could probably sound better. The audio files are normalized to the same values but BB still turned out quite guess it's because of the heavier low-end and percussion.

I had some problems with the aforementioned phasing I was talking about earlier. It's still there and I'm not 100% satisfied with it. If I have more time I might get back into it to see if I can get it sounding even better.

Ignore the last part in my version, it's *very *unfinished.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Jonathan Moray said:


> I know you didn't specifically ask for my opinion, but I will give it anyway and do with it what you will.
> 
> First of all, there are no ensemble patches in Infinite, you create you're own by playing multiple solo instruments. This creates the effect of an ensemble playing together, but without the real-world intricacies that playing in an ensemble comes with which makes the sound of Infinite less real (since it's not recorded as an ensemble), and in some cases, even hard to work with if you're going for absolute realism. But then again, traditionally recorded libraries have plenty of other problems when it comes to realism.
> 
> What you do get in return is the ability to do true divisi, flexible ensemble size, phase-aligned samples, and much more.
> 
> It's hard to say where the sonority of Infinite lands compared to other libraries or recordings because it's a lot more complex to sum up in a couple of words. For one, each instrument is different and some sound better than others. For example, the trumpets sound great but if you have trumpets a2 playing in the higher dynamic range they can sometimes sound a bit phasey in the upper-frequencies I find. Phase is not inherently bad, it's a real-world phenomenon that is what creates the sound of an ensemble. But natural phase, what we hear when playing listening to a recording in a real space, sounds much better and... well, natural than the digital phase that we often get with samples when crossfading or having overlapping instruments. Sound waves in a real space with a real ensemble bounce of each other and cancel each outer out in extremely complex ways that are hard to mimic in the digital domain - at least as of now.
> 
> I find the horns sound great when played as an ensemble as do the trombones as do the trumpets and as do most of the other instruments - but not always since Infinite doesn't playback the same way every time sometimes you get more phase and sometimes less, but I've never found it to be extremely bad.
> 
> The fact that all the players in each group (horns, trumpets, trombones, etc) sound very much the same without a big difference in tone between them only adds to the problem because the signals are too similar. This is somewhat helped by the multitude of different impulse responses which all sound slightly different. That's why it's important to never have two instruments use the same IR or you will get pretty bad phasing.
> 
> Something to keep in mind is that the closer miced the instruments playing in unison are, the more phasing you will most likely get. This is true in real life as well. Adding reverb which is usually somewhat non-linear will make each instrument sound more different making it less likely to have an unpleasant phase.
> 
> To answer your question:
> I would venture a guess and say that what most people find "synthy" is the phasey sound that sometimes is apparent in the ensemble sound of Infinite. Aaron is always working to improve things and I think it can only get better. Playing in each part with slight timing and CC variation will help mitigate the problem a lot.
> 
> Here's a little mockup I made. The first version is Berlin Brass playing John Williams's "Olympic Fanfare" (That one is made by someone here on the forum. I won't mention any names in case they don't want me to) and the second is Infinite Brass (Made by me). I had to humanize this by hand because I'm not a good enough player, nor a patient enough person to play in each part separately so it could probably sound better. The audio files are normalized to the same values but BB still turned out quite guess it's because of the heavier low-end and percussion.
> 
> I had some problems with the aforementioned phasing I was talking about earlier. It's still there and I'm not 100% satisfied with it. If I have more time I might get back into it to see if I can get it sounding even better.
> 
> Ignore the last part in my version, it's *very *unfinished.


Great tips, excellent mockup. Sounds wonderful! My preference of the two for sure, no competition. But some of this may be due to the MIDI work and mixing, too. Either way, a great look for Infinite. 

The ensemble-in-real-life set of sound phenomena are why I bought a regular brass library to use as well, but I’m not sure I’ll even need it. Century, Abbey Road OF which I already had and Infinite.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Russell Anderson said:


> Great tips, excellent mockup. Sounds wonderful! My preference of the two for sure, no competition. But some of this may be due to the MIDI work and mixing, too. Either way, a great look for Infinite.
> 
> The ensemble-in-real-life set of sound phenomena are why I bought a regular brass library to use as well, but I’m not sure I’ll even need it. Century, Abbey Road OF which I already had and Infinite.


I definitely layer Infinite with whatever I have at hand or whatever my friends or clients have. No shame in it and if done tastefully you should barely notice it and a2 won't sound like a4, it will just add a little extra something to the sound without really making it sound much bigger or make it muddy.

I don't own Abbey Road Orchestral Foundations but was thinking about getting it because I think it would blend very nicely with Infinite and add a little extra something that I would like. But then again, I really hate the new players some developers seem to think are a good idea so I decided against it and won't abandon my principles.


----------



## Mikro93

mutex said:


> Just noticed that the crossgrade price from IB to IW is actually pretty amazing.
> 
> I also own IW now.


How did that work? Did you just send the e-mail as instructed?
How much was IW for you?


----------



## mutex

Mikro93 said:


> How did that work? Did you just send the e-mail as instructed?
> How much was IW for you?


Yes. Just the email through the form, without any additional text. I got a discount coupon you apply at the checkout.

It was €111 for me. Which is exactly the difference between normal IB price and the current discounted IW Bundle price. For a full blown orchestral woodwind section, this is a steal.


----------



## Mikro93

mutex said:


> It was €111 for me.


Wow. that is i m p r e s s i v e


----------



## mutex

Mikro93 said:


> Wow. that is i m p r e s s i v e


Yeah, in the end I got both IB and IW for a total of €460 😁


----------



## biomuse

Jonathan Moray said:


> I know you didn't specifically ask for my opinion, but I will give it anyway and do with it what you will.
> 
> First of all, there are no ensemble patches in Infinite, you create you're own by playing multiple solo instruments. This creates the effect of an ensemble playing together, but without the real-world intricacies that playing in an ensemble comes with which makes the sound of Infinite less real (since it's not recorded as an ensemble), and in some cases, even hard to work with if you're going for absolute realism. But then again, traditionally recorded libraries have plenty of other problems when it comes to realism.
> 
> What you do get in return is the ability to do true divisi, flexible ensemble size, phase-aligned samples, and much more.
> 
> It's hard to say where the sonority of Infinite lands compared to other libraries or recordings because it's a lot more complex to sum up in a couple of words. For one, each instrument is different and some sound better than others. For example, the trumpets sound great but if you have trumpets a2 playing in the higher dynamic range they can sometimes sound a bit phasey in the upper-frequencies I find. Phase is not inherently bad, it's a real-world phenomenon that is what creates the sound of an ensemble. But natural phase, what we hear when playing listening to a recording in a real space, sounds much better and... well, natural than the digital phase that we often get with samples when crossfading or having overlapping instruments. Sound waves in a real space with a real ensemble bounce of each other and cancel each outer out in extremely complex ways that are hard to mimic in the digital domain - at least as of now.
> 
> I find the horns sound great when played as an ensemble as do the trombones as do the trumpets and as do most of the other instruments - but not always since Infinite doesn't playback the same way every time sometimes you get more phase and sometimes less, but I've never found it to be extremely bad.
> 
> The fact that all the players in each group (horns, trumpets, trombones, etc) sound very much the same without a big difference in tone between them only adds to the problem because the signals are too similar. This is somewhat helped by the multitude of different impulse responses which all sound slightly different. That's why it's important to never have two instruments use the same IR or you will get pretty bad phasing.
> 
> Something to keep in mind is that the closer miced the instruments playing in unison are, the more phasing you will most likely get. This is true in real life as well. Adding reverb which is usually somewhat non-linear will make each instrument sound more different making it less likely to have an unpleasant phase.
> 
> To answer your question:
> I would venture a guess and say that what most people find "synthy" is the phasey sound that sometimes is apparent in the ensemble sound of Infinite. Aaron is always working to improve things and I think it can only get better. Playing in each part with slight timing and CC variation will help mitigate the problem a lot.
> 
> Here's a little mockup I made. The first version is Berlin Brass playing John Williams's "Olympic Fanfare" (That one is made by someone here on the forum. I won't mention any names in case they don't want me to) and the second is Infinite Brass (Made by me). I had to humanize this by hand because I'm not a good enough player, nor a patient enough person to play in each part separately so it could probably sound better. The audio files are normalized to the same values but BB still turned out quite guess it's because of the heavier low-end and percussion.
> 
> I had some problems with the aforementioned phasing I was talking about earlier. It's still there and I'm not 100% satisfied with it. If I have more time I might get back into it to see if I can get it sounding even better.
> 
> Ignore the last part in my version, it's *very *unfinished.





Jonathan Moray said:


> I know you didn't specifically ask for my opinion, but I will give it anyway and do with it what you will.
> 
> First of all, there are no ensemble patches in Infinite, you create you're own by playing multiple solo instruments. This creates the effect of an ensemble playing together, but without the real-world intricacies that playing in an ensemble comes with which makes the sound of Infinite less real (since it's not recorded as an ensemble), and in some cases, even hard to work with if you're going for absolute realism. But then again, traditionally recorded libraries have plenty of other problems when it comes to realism.
> 
> What you do get in return is the ability to do true divisi, flexible ensemble size, phase-aligned samples, and much more.
> 
> It's hard to say where the sonority of Infinite lands compared to other libraries or recordings because it's a lot more complex to sum up in a couple of words. For one, each instrument is different and some sound better than others. For example, the trumpets sound great but if you have trumpets a2 playing in the higher dynamic range they can sometimes sound a bit phasey in the upper-frequencies I find. Phase is not inherently bad, it's a real-world phenomenon that is what creates the sound of an ensemble. But natural phase, what we hear when playing listening to a recording in a real space, sounds much better and... well, natural than the digital phase that we often get with samples when crossfading or having overlapping instruments. Sound waves in a real space with a real ensemble bounce of each other and cancel each outer out in extremely complex ways that are hard to mimic in the digital domain - at least as of now.
> 
> I find the horns sound great when played as an ensemble as do the trombones as do the trumpets and as do most of the other instruments - but not always since Infinite doesn't playback the same way every time sometimes you get more phase and sometimes less, but I've never found it to be extremely bad.
> 
> The fact that all the players in each group (horns, trumpets, trombones, etc) sound very much the same without a big difference in tone between them only adds to the problem because the signals are too similar. This is somewhat helped by the multitude of different impulse responses which all sound slightly different. That's why it's important to never have two instruments use the same IR or you will get pretty bad phasing.
> 
> Something to keep in mind is that the closer miced the instruments playing in unison are, the more phasing you will most likely get. This is true in real life as well. Adding reverb which is usually somewhat non-linear will make each instrument sound more different making it less likely to have an unpleasant phase.
> 
> To answer your question:
> I would venture a guess and say that what most people find "synthy" is the phasey sound that sometimes is apparent in the ensemble sound of Infinite. Aaron is always working to improve things and I think it can only get better. Playing in each part with slight timing and CC variation will help mitigate the problem a lot.
> 
> Here's a little mockup I made. The first version is Berlin Brass playing John Williams's "Olympic Fanfare" (That one is made by someone here on the forum. I won't mention any names in case they don't want me to) and the second is Infinite Brass (Made by me). I had to humanize this by hand because I'm not a good enough player, nor a patient enough person to play in each part separately so it could probably sound better. The audio files are normalized to the same values but BB still turned out quite guess it's because of the heavier low-end and percussion.
> 
> I had some problems with the aforementioned phasing I was talking about earlier. It's still there and I'm not 100% satisfied with it. If I have more time I might get back into it to see if I can get it sounding even better.
> 
> Ignore the last part in my version, it's *very *unfinished.


I did ask you! My question was intended for everyone here. Excellent demonstration of the strengths of IB. This, the other great mockups in this thread and the incessant whimsical freewheeling of @PerryD have me in the bag definitely for IB and possibly the whole package as well.

@aaronventure A couple of improvements I can predict that I’ll want (yes, even as a momentarily-just-about-to-purchaser) are:

1) a way - possibly a mode - to get extremely tight, pointilistic percussive shorts where needed. From what I’ve heard, they’re already good in IB/W, but could probably be even better with specific adjustments of the engine for that purpose.

2) Noises. Yes, really. Noises are different from clams. They’re intrinsic. Key noises, embouchure leak, maybe correct on-site room tones, etc. They add “grit” and plausibility, subconsciously. They make a sound source punch above its weight in realism. Add a noises engine to Infinite and make the level user adjustable. From what I’ve heard so far, do that and you’ll put the competition dead to bed; the arguments about “tone” will suddenly go niente, especially for IB.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

biomuse said:


> I did ask you! My question was intended for everyone here. Excellent demonstration of the strengths of IB. This, the other great mockups in this thread and the incessant whimsical freewheeling of @PerryD have me in the bag definitely for IB and possibly the whole package as well.
> 
> @aaronventure A couple of improvements I can predict that I’ll want (yes, even as a momentarily-just-about-to-purchaser) are:
> 
> 1) a way - possibly a mode - to get extremely tight, pointilistic percussive shorts where needed. From what I’ve heard, they’re already good in IB/W, but could probably be even better with specific adjustments of the engine for that purpose.
> 
> 2) Noises. Yes, really. Noises are different from clams. They’re intrinsic. Key noises, embouchure leak, maybe correct on-site room tones, etc. They add “grit” and plausibility, subconsciously. They make a sound source punch above its weight in realism. Add a noises engine to Infinite and make the level user adjustable. From what I’ve heard so far, do that and you’ll put the competition dead to bed; the arguments about “tone” will suddenly go niente, especially for IB.


I agree about the noises and whatnot. I think the updates after Infinite Strings might be focused a bit on more noises since I would guess getting the many different noises right in strings is crucial so I hope Aaron has learnt a lot that can be applied to the other instruments. Of course, this is only me guessing.

There are different ways to do tight notes, and maybe in the future Aaron will add momentary-keyswitches for different type attacks (like Sample Modeling does), but you could get most types of attacks. Also, depending on the distance in the room the shorts will sound less "tight" and percussive and become more diffused and "muddy". Do you have any references for the type of tight notes you're looking for?

Here's something I tested today. I could definitely make the trumpets attack even tighter and snappier if I wanted to, which would probably be closer to the original, or it could be the clarinets in the background that add a bit more to the attack. The woodwinds do add a lot to the overall thickness of the sound.

Both the versions done with virtual instruments are slower than the reference.

1. Reference.
2. My version with Infinite Brass.
3. A version with VSL Synchron Brass.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Just for the sake of it, I made another version that's closer to the original tempo and with tighter short notes. Also a couple with clarinets. For example, the IW Clarinets (f) has some pretty snappy notes if you ask me and I could probably make them even snappier.

1. IB
2. IB + IW Clarinets
3. IW Clarinets (mf)
4. IW Clarinets (f)


----------



## PerryD

Jonathan Moray said:


> Just for the sake of it, I made another version that's closer to the original tempo and with tighter short notes. Also a couple with clarinets. For example, the IW Clarinets (f) has some pretty snappy notes if you ask me and I could probably make them even snappier.
> 
> 1. IB
> 2. IB + IW Clarinets
> 3. IW Clarinets (mf)
> 4. IW Clarinets (f)


Great work on both posts! As a "real" trumpet player I prefer the IB example over the Synchron version!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

PerryD said:


> Great work on both posts! As a "real" trumpet player I prefer the IB example over the Synchron version!


Thank you very much! Glad it sounds decent to you especially since you play the instrument.

I agree: the IB version sounds better. I thought I mentioned it in my previous post but I see I forgot to: I didn't make the Synchron Brass version, could be worth noting. Of course, there are many reasons for this but one is that I don't just have 2 or 3 length shorts to choose from making the performance much better and more natural.

I can't wait to have the full orchestra and see what something like this would sound like in context. These short snippets of music are fine, but the real test will be how good (or bad) it sounds in context. Most mockups sound rather mediocre when soloing the different sections while the whole sounds fine. These sound fine even in isolation.


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Just for the sake of it, I made another version that's closer to the original tempo and with tighter short notes. Also a couple with clarinets. For example, the IW Clarinets (f) has some pretty snappy notes if you ask me and I could probably make them even snappier.
> 
> 1. IB
> 2. IB + IW Clarinets
> 3. IW Clarinets (mf)
> 4. IW Clarinets (f)


Excellent version, the trumpets are much better here than in the VSL version. I did feel the trombones were much stronger there, though.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> Excellent version, the trumpets are much better here than in the VSL version. I did feel the trombones were much stronger there, though.


No trombones in my version, only trumpets and french horns and the added clarinets in the second version. It's not a full mockup. I just heard the Synchron version and felt it didn't sound the way I would have liked it too, so I wanted to test and see if I could do a version I would find somewhat satisfactory. Mostly to see if I could get the trumpet sound and tonguing sounding alright.


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> No trombones in my version, only trumpets and french horns and the added clarinets in the second version. It's not a full mockup. I just heard the Synchron version and felt it didn't sound the way I would have liked it too, so I wanted to test and see if I could do a version I would find somewhat satisfactory. Mostly to see if I could get the trumpet sound and tonguing sounding alright.


Well, that explains it!


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Bollen

muziksculp said:


>



It's fascinating what people consider a "good sound"...


----------



## Russell Anderson

Bollen said:


> It's fascinating what people consider a "good sound"...


What sounds good to you?


----------



## muziksculp

Bollen said:


> It's fascinating what people consider a "good sound"...


She is a pro-media composer, giving her opinion, not just your average jill/ (People).


----------



## Bollen

Russell Anderson said:


> What sounds good to you?


Something you would, hopefully, find fascinating! 



muziksculp said:


> She is a pro-media composer, giving her opinion, not just your average jill/ (People).


So...? What is that suppose to mean? Anyway, why do you assume I meant that in a negative way? I could be genuinely fascinated...


----------



## muziksculp

Bollen said:


> So...? What is that suppose to mean? Anyway, why do you assume I meant that in a negative way? I could be genuinely fascinated...


Sorry about that, but that's how it came across.

I totally understand you might have not meant that in a negative way. 

So, let's get things straight here, Do you like way VSL Synchron Brass sound ?


----------



## yagoda

Hi. I'd like to Know if Infinite do low price (i m french,i can t find thé good word) An other time in the year. I 'd like to buy this product but a little voici, like Gepetto in Disney, Say : IS it good to get your money away? 😊 But i m very fond of .Some advice?


----------



## Juulu

Jonathan Moray said:


> I know you didn't specifically ask for my opinion, but I will give it anyway and do with it what you will.
> 
> First of all, there are no ensemble patches in Infinite, you create you're own by playing multiple solo instruments. This creates the effect of an ensemble playing together, but without the real-world intricacies that playing in an ensemble comes with which makes the sound of Infinite less real (since it's not recorded as an ensemble), and in some cases, even hard to work with if you're going for absolute realism. But then again, traditionally recorded libraries have plenty of other problems when it comes to realism.
> 
> What you do get in return is the ability to do true divisi, flexible ensemble size, phase-aligned samples, and much more.
> 
> It's hard to say where the sonority of Infinite lands compared to other libraries or recordings because it's a lot more complex to sum up in a couple of words. For one, each instrument is different and some sound better than others. For example, the trumpets sound great but if you have trumpets a2 playing in the higher dynamic range they can sometimes sound a bit phasey in the upper-frequencies I find. Phase is not inherently bad, it's a real-world phenomenon that is what creates the sound of an ensemble. But natural phase, what we hear when playing listening to a recording in a real space, sounds much better and... well, natural than the digital phase that we often get with samples when crossfading or having overlapping instruments. Sound waves in a real space with a real ensemble bounce of each other and cancel each outer out in extremely complex ways that are hard to mimic in the digital domain - at least as of now.
> 
> I find the horns sound great when played as an ensemble as do the trombones as do the trumpets and as do most of the other instruments - but not always since Infinite doesn't playback the same way every time sometimes you get more phase and sometimes less, but I've never found it to be extremely bad.
> 
> The fact that all the players in each group (horns, trumpets, trombones, etc) sound very much the same without a big difference in tone between them only adds to the problem because the signals are too similar. This is somewhat helped by the multitude of different impulse responses which all sound slightly different. That's why it's important to never have two instruments use the same IR or you will get pretty bad phasing.
> 
> Something to keep in mind is that the closer miced the instruments playing in unison are, the more phasing you will most likely get. This is true in real life as well. Adding reverb which is usually somewhat non-linear will make each instrument sound more different making it less likely to have an unpleasant phase.
> 
> To answer your question:
> I would venture a guess and say that what most people find "synthy" is the phasey sound that sometimes is apparent in the ensemble sound of Infinite. Aaron is always working to improve things and I think it can only get better. Playing in each part with slight timing and CC variation will help mitigate the problem a lot.
> 
> Here's a little mockup I made. The first version is Berlin Brass playing John Williams's "Olympic Fanfare" (That one is made by someone here on the forum. I won't mention any names in case they don't want me to) and the second is Infinite Brass (Made by me). I had to humanize this by hand because I'm not a good enough player, nor a patient enough person to play in each part separately so it could probably sound better. The audio files are normalized to the same values but BB still turned out quite guess it's because of the heavier low-end and percussion.
> 
> I had some problems with the aforementioned phasing I was talking about earlier. It's still there and I'm not 100% satisfied with it. If I have more time I might get back into it to see if I can get it sounding even better.
> 
> Ignore the last part in my version, it's *very *unfinished.


I hope you don't mind me asking exactly how you mix IB? I bought it recently and am still trying to figure out how I want to fit it in the mix (seems to be a large learning curve), but listening to your mockups gives me the near identical feel I'm looking for. I also enjoyed listening to your examples of Hedwig's Theme, very convincing even while being out of context.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Juulu said:


> I hope you don't mind me asking exactly how you mix IB? I bought it recently and am still trying to figure out how I want to fit it in the mix (seems to be a large learning curve), but listening to your mockups gives me the near identical feel I'm looking for. I also enjoyed listening to your examples of Hedwig's Theme, very convincing even while being out of context.


Here's the secret: I barely mix it. This is not exactly straight-out-of-the-box but it's not far from it. I loaded up the instruments, changed the mic positions, changed the humanization, and that's about it. The french horn group has an EQ that does pretty much nothing (it's less than a dB of gain and cut) and the same goes for the trumpets.

Most of it comes from the performance. You really need to mould the performance, which is quite different from traditional libraries. Some of this can be alleviated by layering real performances underneath, by that I mean using a traditionally sampled library underneath and using the different articulations like marcato or staccato to give more "movement". But in my examples, it's all Infinite Brass.

Infinite has a much steeper learning curve than traditional libraries and will probably never be as "easy" but it's mostly because with traditional libraries you will have to accept a mediocre performance at some point and just move on while with Infinite you can keep tweaking until you get what you want, which can be both good and bad.

There's a big chance I would have mixed this differently - both the balance and mic selection - if it was in context. If you have something you've made and want some pointers feel free to post it and some of us might be able to help.


----------



## Tralen

yagoda said:


> Hi. I'd like to Know if Infinite do low price (i m french,i can t find thé good word) An other time in the year. I 'd like to buy this product but a little voici, like Gepetto in Disney, Say : IS it good to get your money away? 😊 But i m very fond of .Some advice?


It usually gets discounted on anniversaries, updates or new releases. We are expecting the update to Infinite Woodwinds and the release of Infinite Strings, but who knows when they will come.

It will probably be some time until it is cheap as it is again.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Has there been any talk about what exactly is getting updated in the wws? The low flutes are the weaker-sounding to me, but… there’s always room to improve on everything, even if you’re a lifetime professional instrumentalist, so I’m pretty excited to see what’s cooking 8^)


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Russell Anderson said:


> Has there been any talk about what exactly is getting updated in the wws? The low flutes are the weaker-sounding to me, but… there’s always room to improve on everything, even if you’re a lifetime professional instrumentalist, so I’m pretty excited to see what’s cooking 8^)


Nope. It's not even been confirmed that an update is coming. It's all purely speculation. But Aaron has said that he's adamant about making the instruments better and better as well as adding new instruments, but other than that, we don't even know if he's working on a new update yet or not. Judging from his previous actions, he probably is.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I’ve already got a lot of learning to do and Aaron already earned my money with the libraries in their current form, so if an update doesn’t come in many months, I won’t be waiting impatiently to say the least. If it ever comes down to it, I’d pay for updates, personally. I mean if it ever came down to it I’d drive to Canada or wherever he’s situated and play oboe and spit ball ideas about what to do next, haha


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Nope. It's not even been confirmed that an update is coming. It's all purely speculation. But Aaron has said that he's adamant about making the instruments better and better as well as adding new instruments, but other than that, we don't even know if he's working on a new update yet or not. Judging from his previous actions, he probably is.


The speculation is not unwarranted, though. I think Panda asked if an update to IW would come this year and he said "I hope so". So there is at least an update planned.

EDIT:
It was muziksculp. Here is the post.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> The speculation is not unwarranted, though. I think Panda asked if an update to IW would come this year and he said "I hope so". So there is at least an update planned.
> 
> EDIT:
> It was muziksculp. Here is the post.


Wow, I read everything in this thread, but I must have missed it... or subconsciously pushed it deep, deep into the dark recesses of my mind so as to not get hurt once again when it gets pushed back to 2022.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@muziksculp, I didn't link or tag the person by choice because I didn't want them to feel as if I was calling them out or trying to one-up them, because I'm not. All I wanted to do was see what Infinite would sound like in a similar situation and leave it up to those who made the other version to tag themselves if they wanted to participate in the discussion.


----------



## Mikro93

Well.

I knew what I was getting into: I asked for the crossgrade, and it was just too good to pass. I now have Infinite Brass.

Stay tuned.


----------



## Terry93D

Yeah, Infinite stuff sounds pretty good out the box. That said I do have more sections than not EQ'd to be brighter - w/ the flutes it adds a sense of breath and air, w/ the clarinets it helps them project a little more (the bass clarinet, I think, could use another pass), and w/ the trumpets it gets me closer to the sound of the trumpets in JRPG scores (e.g. _Octopath Traveler_, tho you can also hear the sound in Michiru Ohshima's _Star Wars Visions_ soundtrack).


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Terry93D said:


> Yeah, Infinite stuff sounds pretty good out the box. That said I do have more sections than not EQ'd to be brighter - w/ the flutes it adds a sense of breath and air, w/ the clarinets it helps them project a little more (the bass clarinet, I think, could use another pass), and w/ the trumpets it gets me closer to the sound of the trumpets in JRPG scores (e.g. _Octopath Traveler_, tho you can also hear the sound in Michiru Ohshima's _Star Wars Visions_ soundtrack).


Funny how subjectivity works. I often find myself removing some high-end in the brass to add more warmth.

But I do agree about the woodwinds. I too add a bit of high-end to add some of what I find is missing in them... even if I know I won't find what I'm missing up in the high-end. But at least the air gives them a bit more of a "sparkle" which makes them sound a bit better.

Any specific EQ settings you like?


----------



## Russell Anderson

I concur that the brass is something where I’d find myself reducing highs more often than not. But I’m still installing Windows, so what do I know? I don’t even have a DAW yet!


----------



## Juulu

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's the secret: I barely mix it. This is not exactly straight-out-of-the-box but it's not far from it. I loaded up the instruments, changed the mic positions, changed the humanization, and that's about it. The french horn group has an EQ that does pretty much nothing (it's less than a dB of gain and cut) and the same goes for the trumpets.
> 
> Most of it comes from the performance. You really need to mould the performance, which is quite different from traditional libraries. Some of this can be alleviated by layering real performances underneath, by that I mean using a traditionally sampled library underneath and using the different articulations like marcato or staccato to give more "movement". But in my examples, it's all Infinite Brass.
> 
> Infinite has a much steeper learning curve than traditional libraries and will probably never be as "easy" but it's mostly because with traditional libraries you will have to accept a mediocre performance at some point and just move on while with Infinite you can keep tweaking until you get what you want, which can be both good and bad.
> 
> There's a big chance I would have mixed this differently - both the balance and mic selection - if it was in context. If you have something you've made and want some pointers feel free to post it and some of us might be able to help.


Interestingly enough I decided to remove the reverb I had on there and it gave me a lot more of the presence that I was looking for. Just not sure how well it will work when I finally get my string library since I'm currently using BBCSO Core which has a much "spacier" sound. I attached a mockup I wrote the other day if you wanna listen. IB definitely beats out BBCSO brass, especially for stuff like this. Sorry for the abrupt end btw it's just the way the mixdown automatically configured haha.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Juulu said:


> Interestingly enough I decided to remove the reverb I had on there and it gave me a lot more of the presence that I was looking for. Just not sure how well it will work when I finally get my string library since I'm currently using BBCSO Core which has a much "spacier" sound. I attached a mockup I wrote the other day if you wanna listen. IB definitely beats out BBCSO brass, especially for stuff like this. Sorry for the abrupt end btw it's just the way the mixdown automatically configured haha.


That doesn't sound half bad! Really like how it sounds in context with BBCSO. I can't check properly right now, but it does sound like the brass is a bit too upfront compared to the other sections. Have you tried lowering the close mic on the brass slightly to push it back in space?

The other things I would note are mostly compositional I think, but sound-wise, right now I see a very little problem. The high end might be a little too hot on the sustain notes.

Please, post once you finished it, or at least when you've come further along on the piece. I would like to hear more.


----------



## Juulu

Jonathan Moray said:


> That doesn't sound half bad! Really like how it sounds in context with BBCSO. I can't check properly right now, but it does sound like the brass is a bit too upfront compared to the other sections. Have you tried lowering the close mic on the brass slightly to push it back in space?
> 
> The other things I would note are mostly compositional I think, but sound-wise, right now I see a very little problem. The high end might be a little too hot on the sustain notes.
> 
> Please, post once you finished it, or at least when you've come further along on the piece. I would like to hear more.


Ya I kinda drew a blank after the first 2 or 3 bars. There was an element I wanted in that portion but I couldn't figure it out so it ended up with that monotonous repetition. If there is anything you would change please let me know as I am still learning.

I believe I had the close mics at about 75-80% on each instrument to counteract the reverb I placed them in (scoring stage from seventh heaven). I guess this isn't gelling well with BBCSO's mix 1. It's funny that you said the high end was a bit much. I felt the same, which is why I added in an EQ cutting a lot of the higher frequencies for the trumpets and trombones I believe. 

I'll post another version when I figure out how I'm going to finish it.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Here's a little something I wrote. Ignore the writing itself... it's not very good. But this is where I feel like Infinite is missing something. As shown it does the louder more bombastic stuff quite well but when it comes to the more pp stuff it doesn't quite have that warmth and air that at least I personally like. Not sure exactly what it's missing, to be honest, but I find especially the trombones is lacking something when playing these sort of pad-like things.

It's definitely not bad, but I think it could be better. It's on par with some other traditional libraries I find. I often add a bit of high-end to the brass when playing things like this (I didn't do it in this example because it is the same project as the other examples I've posted recently) but then I have to automate it if the brass plays louder because I don't want that much high-end in the upper dynamics.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> the trombones is lacking something when playing these sort of pad-like things.


Trombones sound the most different between IB and the other libraries I do have (HWB and CSB).

There's a mellow fatness (I can't describe it) in the lower dynamics that isn't quite the same (also in trumpets) where I like the HWB tone a lot. I think it is the room, not sure. Can't replicate with reverb.

If that was somehow developed, it'd be the brass killer for me. It pretty much is for all it can do, but if I were being picky then yeah.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Trombones sound the most different between IB and the other libraries I do have (HWB and CSB).
> 
> There's a mellow fatness (I can't describe it) in the lower dynamics that isn't quite the same (also in trumpets) where I like the HWB tone a lot. I think it is the room, not sure. Can't replicate with reverb.
> 
> If that was somehow developed, it'd be the brass killer for me. It pretty much is for all it can do, but if I were being picky then yeah.


I somewhat agree. I haven't had HWB installed or heard them in half a decade so can't comment on those and listening to CSB Solo Trombone I think they are not the top-of-the-crop when it comes to trombones but they still sound better. And you might be right about the room because just going down to the big brother (the bass trombone in IB) you get a lot more bottom end and they still sound as if they're missing something. I hope it's not the room because that would be really hard to fix I think.

The trumpets do lack a little bit of low end and generally sound "thin" compared to other libraries, especially CSB, but listening to some of John Williams newer recordings, in this case, The Force Awakens, the trumpets are not that low-mid heavy when not being the star instrument.

Here's a good example I found. Listen to how the trumpets are mixed when playing the melody: more centred, thick and in your face (probably quite a bit of close mic and section mic). Then listen to what happens when it goes over to the fast repetitions: the whole section shifts right and loses quite a bit of the low end and becomes thinner and more distant.

The second example is later in the same track. Here the trumpets do a lot of the heavy lifting but still sound thin. Personally, I find them to sound too thin in this particular track, but that's probably personal preference and there's so much going that it might even be a necessity for everything to fit nicely.


----------



## Pablocrespo

What is this magic?? just spent 20 minutes with my new Infinite Brass, I can echo the feeling that it is my most expensive brass library because I won´t be using again some of my older ones.

Spent working time doodling Mahler, Tchaikovksy (yes that horn solo), this is the most fun I had playing with a brass library!

Considered me converted! thanks so much Aaron!


----------



## biomuse

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's a little something I wrote. Ignore the writing itself... it's not very good. But this is where I feel like Infinite is missing something. As shown it does the louder more bombastic stuff quite well but when it comes to the more pp stuff it doesn't quite have that warmth and air that at least I personally like. Not sure exactly what it's missing, to be honest, but I find especially the trombones is lacking something when playing these sort of pad-like things.
> 
> It's definitely not bad, but I think it could be better. It's on par with some other traditional libraries I find. I often add a bit of high-end to the brass when playing things like this (I didn't do it in this example because it is the same project as the other examples I've posted recently) but then I have to automate it if the brass plays louder because I don't want that much high-end in the upper dynamics.


Mess around with this magic beast a bit on attacks at low level, envelope following, hi freq? :









Creative Noise-Padding Effect Plugin [VST, AU, AAX] - Shumovick | Voxengo


Creative noise-padding effect plugin. Produces an interesting Lo-Fi noise-padding special effect useful for electronic drum beats, synth sounds, basslines, and even mixes.




www.voxengo.com


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's a little something I wrote. Ignore the writing itself... it's not very good. But this is where I feel like Infinite is missing something. As shown it does the louder more bombastic stuff quite well but when it comes to the more pp stuff it doesn't quite have that warmth and air that at least I personally like. Not sure exactly what it's missing, to be honest, but I find especially the trombones is lacking something when playing these sort of pad-like things.
> 
> It's definitely not bad, but I think it could be better. It's on par with some other traditional libraries I find. I often add a bit of high-end to the brass when playing things like this (I didn't do it in this example because it is the same project as the other examples I've posted recently) but then I have to automate it if the brass plays louder because I don't want that much high-end in the upper dynamics.


I would consider saturation for this. Perhaps some subtle delay with a slightly different stereo information.


----------



## biomuse

Tralen said:


> I would consider saturation for this. Perhaps some subtle delay with a slightly different stereo information.


Also, listening to p/pp brass pieces just now, there is a *lot* more pitch instability at lower dynamics; it's difficult to vibrate those metal air columns in a quiet but controlled way. Would love to hear another try at that piece with more pitch wheel jazz on the backing choral ensemble.


----------



## Tralen

biomuse said:


> Also, listening to p/pp brass pieces just now, there is a *lot* more pitch instability at lower dynamics; it's difficult to vibrate those metal air columns in a quiet but controlled way. Would love to hear another try at that piece with more pitch wheel jazz on the backing choral ensemble.


Well observed. Perhaps, reducing the "pitch accuracy" of that passage could achieve that effect.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I somewhat agree. I haven't had HWB installed or heard them in half a decade so can't comment on those and listening to CSB Solo Trombone I think they are not the top-of-the-crop when it comes to trombones but they still sound better. And you might be right about the room because just going down to the big brother (the bass trombone in IB) you get a lot more bottom end and they still sound as if they're missing something. I hope it's not the room because that would be really hard to fix I think.
> 
> The trumpets do lack a little bit of low end and generally sound "thin" compared to other libraries, especially CSB, but listening to some of John Williams newer recordings, in this case, The Force Awakens, the trumpets are not that low-mid heavy when not being the star instrument.
> 
> Here's a good example I found. Listen to how the trumpets are mixed when playing the melody: more centred, thick and in your face (probably quite a bit of close mic and section mic). Then listen to what happens when it goes over to the fast repetitions: the whole section shifts right and loses quite a bit of the low end and becomes thinner and more distant.
> 
> The second example is later in the same track. Here the trumpets do a lot of the heavy lifting but still sound thin. Personally, I find them to sound too thin in this particular track, but that's probably personal preference and there's so much going that it might even be a necessity for everything to fit nicely.


Wow, when you hear it side-by-side.

All in all, the trumpets are great, and actually when I hear them compared with a fair bit of Goldsmith and Williams stuff, they actually have a similar clean sound. But at the same time, there are trumpets in scores I've heard where there's a ton more body. Makes me wonder if I am listening to a different brass instrument altogether.

I wonder if the trombones are done as far as Aaron is concerned, or not. Just some body missing is all I hear.

Horns on the other hand, yum.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Wow, when you hear it side-by-side.
> 
> All in all, the trumpets are great, and actually when I hear them compared with a fair bit of Goldsmith and Williams stuff, they actually have a similar clean sound. But at the same time, there are trumpets in scores I've heard where there's a ton more body. Makes me wonder if I am listening to a different brass instrument altogether.
> 
> I wonder if the trombones are done as far as Aaron is concerned, or not. Just some body missing is all I hear.
> 
> Horns on the other hand, yum.


I agree. Mixing is such a vital part and I understand that most just want to make music and not bother with all this technical stuff.

Yeah, those horns are real crispy.

Do you have any scores you really like? I would like to see if I could get them sounding similar.


----------



## Juulu

Been trying to mockup one of my favorite tracks from one of my favorite games the last few hours. I basically took two of the most energetic parts to see if I could emulate the feel I got from the original in context. The softer horn solos and even the trumpet shorts hold up pretty well. I do still feel like they're missing something (something about the warmth of the solo horn isn't there and there's some resonance missing in the trumpet shorts) but I think that's a problem all sample libraries will face until some technology improves. The original is here for anyone that wants to try their hand at it.

Here are the two passages I mocked up. You can ignore the last 30 seconds of the second one. The first one is the entrance to the piece and the second comes in at about 2:06 in the video I gave:


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## Trash Panda

I think you could stand to back off the CC1 a bit in the loud parts. It's really easy to overdo the dynamics with Infinite due to them going to FFF unlike most libraries that max out at F to FF.

What IR are you using? The studio? Bersa would probably help a bit with giving the horns more body.


----------



## Bollen

muziksculp said:


> Sorry about that, but that's how it came across.


Nah! Ignore me... I'm just getting cranky in my old age and gotten tired of the sound of traditional sample libraries. They just sound like those videos of a bunch of different sources glued together to make presidents and other famous people say things they wouldn't ordinarily say.

It's kind of the reason I like this thread so much, because these semi-modelled instruments are so musical! Sure, sometimes they can come off as a bit synthy, but they're always musical. Something I can't say about traditional libraries any more. Any way, kudos to Aaron and other developers working on this path!


----------



## muziksculp

Bollen said:


> Nah! Ignore me... I'm just getting cranky in my old age and gotten tired of the sound of traditional sample libraries. They just sound like those videos of a bunch of different sources glued together to make presidents and other famous people say things they wouldn't ordinarily say.
> 
> It's kind of the reason I like this thread so much, because these semi-modelled instruments are so musical! Sure, sometimes they can come off as a bit synthy, but they're always musical. Something I can't say about traditional libraries any more. Any way, kudos to Aaron and other developers working on this path!


hehe..No worries. My old age is not helping me be patient waiting for releases either  So, don't mind me as well.

I agree, I can sense the future of Virtual Instruments is not in traditional clunky sampling tech., with key-switches, but rather in companies such as Aaron Venture, Sample Modeling , Audio Modeling, Acoustic Samples, and others that will be showing up, is the future. Although, imho. They are not there yet with regards to timbral realism, but that's bound to be overcome at some point in the near future, I don't think it is a huge bump in the road.


----------



## I like music

Juulu said:


> Been trying to mockup one of my favorite tracks from one of my favorite games the last few hours. I basically took two of the most energetic parts to see if I could emulate the feel I got from the original in context. The softer horn solos and even the trumpet shorts hold up pretty well. I do still feel like they're missing something (something about the warmth of the solo horn isn't there and there's some resonance missing in the trumpet shorts) but I think that's a problem all sample libraries will face until some technology improves. The original is here for anyone that wants to try their hand at it.
> 
> Here are the two passages I mocked up. You can ignore the last 30 seconds of the second one. The first one is the entrance to the piece and the second comes in at about 2:06 in the video I gave:


Which strings did you use?


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## Jonathan Moray

@I like music, I gave it a quick try to mix the horns to sound like those in the previous examples. It's not the easiest. A little bit of low-end warmth is missing in my example... but it's also out of context and I think they would sound better and fuller with the other instruments mixed in. I believe there are some woodwinds and other instruments backing up the brass to add that depth and fullness. If I remember correctly, there are also six horns in the soundtrack while I only used four layered with another library far in the background. It's barely noticeable.

For the trumpets, there's a little bit of "rattle" missing when they hit those very, very high notes. Not necessarily more cuivré, but a lower kind of rattle. (mid-high somewhere). I would keep experimenting and see what I can come up with. But IB Trumpets definitely has more body to them in my example.


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## Juulu

I like music said:


> Which strings did you use?


Those are BBCSO strings. I don't have the Pro version which has the most important mic configs like the close and tree mics, so I had to EQ the heck out of them to make them stand out. I think I gave the 1st Violins a 6db boost in the highs, a slightly sharp peak for some of the mids, and completely rolled off the low end. I got the idea by watching a heavyocity video on mixing and I think it worked okl.


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## Jonathan Moray

Alright, I have a question I've been meaning to ask for a while. Does anyone understand MSB & LSB CC values? I'm really clueless when it comes to this. I understand it's "most significant bit" (MSB) & "least significant bit" (LSB) and has something to do with 14-bit midi. Since a CC only stores values between 1-127 I would guess it combines the values from each to get to the 14-bit resolution (1-16384) so I would guess it's just 127x127 since for each value in the MSB or LSB there are another 127 values in the other one. That's, eh, interesting and what not - BUT why do they need two CCs and not just make a single CC 14-bit? My guess would be that 14-bit is rather new and just changing it would break compatibility with both hardware and vsts since they are programmed for this.

-- EITHER WAY --

Here's the problem, I'm using REAPER and it uses CC1 and CC33 as MSB & LSB for CC1 to be 14-bit. So when I'm moving my dynamics (CC1) at the same time as my pitch accuracy (CC33) it all goes to hell. Is there a way to disable this in REAPER? I rather have 7-bit and independent CC1 and CC33 than a combination of the two and 14-bit which I'm not even sure KONTAKT can take advantage of.

Here's a picture of what happens when both are moving at the same time. I've also attached the midi for this particular experiment. Any help would be very much appreciated. I haven't contacted Cockos or posted on the Reaper forums yet in hopes that it's a simple fix.

@aaronventure, how do you deal with this?






Update: So, after rendering all this and importing the midi to see that I actually exported the correct thing, I realized that it doesn't render the "curves" from REAPER which I have set as bezier. So I drew the midi curve instead... well, the problem seemed to disappear, somewhat. The conclusion is that it's a problem with using the curves. It's still a problem for me since that's like 99% of what I use, but at least I've gotten bit closer to actually understanding the problem, or at least knowing what triggers it.


----------



## Mikro93

Jonathan Moray said:


> Alright, I have a question I've been meaning to ask for a while. Does anyone understand MSB & LSB CC values? I'm really clueless when it comes to this. I understand it's "most significant bit" (MSB) & "least significant bit" (LSB) and has something to do with 14-bit midi. Since a CC only stores values between 1-127 I would guess it combines the values from each to get to the 14-bit resolution (1-16384) so I would guess it's just 127x127 since for each value in the MSB or LSB there are another 127 values in the other one. That's, eh, interesting and what not - BUT why do they need two CCs and not just make a single CC 14-bit? My guess would be that 14-bit is rather new and just changing it would break compatibility with both hardware and vsts since they are programmed for this.
> 
> -- EITHER WAY --
> 
> Here's the problem, I'm using REAPER and it uses CC1 and CC33 as MSB & LSB for CC1 to be 14-bit. So when I'm moving my dynamics (CC1) at the same time as my pitch accuracy (CC33) it all goes to hell. Is there a way to disable this in REAPER? I rather have 7-bit and independent CC1 and CC33 than a combination of the two and 14-bit which I'm not even sure KONTAKT can take advantage of.
> 
> Here's a picture of what happens when both are moving at the same time. I've also attached the midi for this particular experiment. Any help would be very much appreciated. I haven't contacted Cockos or posted on the Reaper forums yet in hopes that it's a simple fix.
> 
> @aaronventure, how do you deal with this?


Can you try right-clicking on Pitch Accuracy and disable the default CC#33 mapping to Pitch accuracy?


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## Mikro93

Here's the thing: Regular MIDI does not do 14-bit. I don't think Kontakt is equipped to deal with 14-bit 

In my understanding, what Reaper does is a trick, a way to use two regular 7-bit CC to increase the definition of a CC, but the plug-in needs to be able to interpret a 14-bit value.

But I don't know any better than that


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mikro93 said:


> Here's the thing: Regular MIDI does not do 14-bit. I don't think Kontakt is equipped to deal with 14-bit
> 
> In my understanding, what Reaper does is a trick, a way to use two regular 7-bit CC to increase the definition of a CC, but the plug-in needs to be able to interpret a 14-bit value.
> 
> But I don't know any better than that


That's my understanding as well, and I rather it didn't do 14-bit at all since I don't think I have many (or even one) plugins that support it. So far it's only been giving me trouble.

Yes, I can change the CC but then I'd have to do that for every instrument and that's a hassle with each update, I rather fix the problem itself. I've actually adapted my workflow to work with the Infinite series because for me vibrato is always CC2 and vibrato speed CC3 and some other things I've gotten used to, but I changed all that because of Infinite because I'm too lazy to adjust each instrument.


----------



## Trash Panda

Jonathan Moray said:


> That's my understanding as well, and I rather it didn't do 14-bit at all since I don't think I have many (or even one) plugins that support it. So far it's only been giving me trouble.
> 
> Yes, I can change the CC but then I'd have to do that for every instrument and that's a hassle with each update, I rather fix the problem itself. I've actually adapted my workflow to work with the Infinite series because for me vibrato is always CC2 and vibrato speed CC3 and some other things I've gotten used to, but I changed all that because of Infinite because I'm too lazy to adjust each instrument.


You could use the MIDI CC mapper JS FX to redirect CC33 to a different CC number that isn't used.


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Alright, I have a question I've been meaning to ask for a while. Does anyone understand MSB & LSB CC values? I'm really clueless when it comes to this. I understand it's "most significant bit" (MSB) & "least significant bit" (LSB) and has something to do with 14-bit midi. Since a CC only stores values between 1-127 I would guess it combines the values from each to get to the 14-bit resolution (1-16384) so I would guess it's just 127x127 since for each value in the MSB or LSB there are another 127 values in the other one. That's, eh, interesting and what not - BUT why do they need two CCs and not just make a single CC 14-bit? My guess would be that 14-bit is rather new and just changing it would break compatibility with both hardware and vsts since they are programmed for this.
> 
> -- EITHER WAY --
> 
> Here's the problem, I'm using REAPER and it uses CC1 and CC33 as MSB & LSB for CC1 to be 14-bit. So when I'm moving my dynamics (CC1) at the same time as my pitch accuracy (CC33) it all goes to hell. Is there a way to disable this in REAPER? I rather have 7-bit and independent CC1 and CC33 than a combination of the two and 14-bit which I'm not even sure KONTAKT can take advantage of.
> 
> Here's a picture of what happens when both are moving at the same time. I've also attached the midi for this particular experiment. Any help would be very much appreciated. I haven't contacted Cockos or posted on the Reaper forums yet in hopes that it's a simple fix.
> 
> @aaronventure, how do you deal with this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update: So, after rendering all this and importing the midi to see that I actually exported the correct thing, I realized that it doesn't render the "curves" from REAPER which I have set as bezier. So I drew the midi curve instead... well, the problem seemed to disappear, somewhat. The conclusion is that it's a problem with using the curves. It's still a problem for me since that's like 99% of what I use, but at least I've gotten bit closer to actually understanding the problem, or at least knowing what triggers it.


How did you draw the bezier curves for CC33? I thought the LSB channels only supported square interpolation.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> How did you draw the bezier curves for CC33? I thought the LSB channels only supported square interpolation.


There's a little option nested deep in the menus:








Trash Panda said:


> You could use the MIDI CC mapper JS FX to redirect CC33 to a different CC number that isn't used.


Yes, absolutely, still feels a bit like a cop-out or a workaround, not a proper fix. There are many ways I can work around the problem without actually fixing it. I've been dreading adding anything before KONTAKT in the fx chain because I have a lua script I use all the time that kind of breaks or at least loses its value if I add anything before the instruments themselves, and I've not had the time to actually see if I can make it better and still work if I add something like CC mapper.


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> There's a little option nested deep in the menus:


Thanks a lot!


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## Trash Panda

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yes, absolutely, still feels a bit like a cop-out or a workaround, not a proper fix. There are many ways I can work around the problem without actually fixing it. I've been dreading adding anything before KONTAKT in the fx chain because I have a lua script I use all the time that kind of breaks or at least loses its value if I add anything before the instruments themselves, and I've not had the time to actually see if I can make it better and still work if I add something like CC mapper.


I didn't profess that it was anything more than a workaround. Obviously there's not much to be done for a proper fix until proper 14-bit MIDI is implemented by Cockos and NI.


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## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> I didn't profess that it was anything more than a workaround. Obviously there's not much to be done for a proper fix until proper 14-bit MIDI is implemented by Cockos and NI.


Do you know if there's a way to disable the quasi 14-bit support in REAPER?

Also, I didn't mean to come off as defensive or aggressive or like I didn't appreciate the help because I definitely do. In the end, I might actually do the CC mapper and go back to CC 2 being vibrato depth because it makes it more consistent with most other libraries. And after looking over the script, it seems like it would be rather easy to implement a fix for the problem I would be having.


----------



## Trash Panda

Jonathan Moray said:


> Do you know if there's a way to disable the quasi 14-bit support in REAPER?


Not using the 14-bit CC lanes and sticking to the normal CC lanes?


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## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Do you know if there's a way to disable the quasi 14-bit support in REAPER?
> 
> Also, I didn't mean to come off as defensive or aggressive or like I didn't appreciate the help because I definitely do. In the end, I might actually do the CC mapper and go back to CC 2 being vibrato depth because it makes it more consistent with most other libraries. And after looking over the script, it seems like it would be rather easy to implement a fix for the problem I would be having.


I did some testing and the problem is not as easy to reproduce as I thought. It seems to happen only when the events on both lanes coincide perfectly, and even then not always.

You can see here that the tiniest offset on one of the events solves it for me.


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## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> I did some testing and the problem is not as easy to reproduce as I thought. It seems to happen only when the events on both lanes coincide perfectly, and even then not always.
> 
> You can see here that the tiniest offset on one of the events solves it for me.


It seems as if you need to offset the last events as well for it to work on my end. If those coincide you will get some glitchy stuff as well. Really strange stuff, especially considering how unpredictable and irregular it is. Seems more like a bug than anything else at this point. I would have understood if it was consistent each time.

Here's a clip of me moving the CC points. Neither CC33 or CC1 glitches once none of the points are perfectly on top of each other. I will have to open up one of my projects and check because I thought I saw it glitching even when the CC data was played by hand i.e not perfectly aligned. 






Thank you very much for the help! Keep me posted if you find anything else.


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> It seems as if you need to offset the last events as well for it to work on my end. If those coincide you will get some glitchy stuff as well. Really strange stuff, especially considering how unpredictable and irregular it is. Seems more like a bug than anything else at this point. I would have understood if it was consistent each time.
> 
> Here's a clip of me moving the CC points. Neither CC33 or CC1 glitches once none of the points are perfectly on top of each other. I will have to open up one of my projects and check because I thought I saw it glitching even when the CC data was played by hand i.e not perfectly aligned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for the help! Keep me posted if you find anything else.


Yes, it is odd that the problem is not the ramp values per se, just the events.

And perhaps it is not a bug... I'm guessing that a simultaneous event on both CC1 and CC33 is what instructs Reaper to treat CC33 as LSB for CC1. If the events are not simultaneous, then it treats CC33 independently.


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## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> Yes, it is odd that the problem is not the ramp values per se, just the events.
> 
> And perhaps it is not a bug... I'm guessing that a simultaneous event on both CC1 and CC33 is what instructs Reaper to treat CC33 as LSB for CC1. If the events are not simultaneous, then it treats CC33 independently.


Huh... that would make some sort of sense. Either way, I will probably report it when I have the time. It's not super bad, and I will have to be mindful to use CC33 between CC1 so as to not trigger it and I should be fine for now.


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## Tralen

Trash Panda said:


> Not using the 14-bit CC lanes and sticking to the normal CC lanes?


The problem is that Infinite has CC1 and CC33 as default assignments. So, someone manipulating Dynamics and Pitch Accuracy at the same time is bound to face the problem Jonathan is facing (at least on Reaper, I don't know if it is the same on other DAWs).

Perhaps the default for Pitch Accuracy could be changed to a non-LSB number, like CC19?


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## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> The problem is that Infinite has CC1 and CC33 as default assignments. So, someone manipulating Dynamics and Pitch Accuracy at the same time is bound to face the problem Jonathan is facing (at least on Reaper, I don't know if it is the same on other DAWs).
> 
> Perhaps the default for Pitch Accuracy could be changed to a non-LSB number, like CC19?


It will be interesting to see if Aaron has any ideas about this. And while he's at it, I wouldn't mind if he changed the default for vibrato depth and vibrato speed as well. But yes, the LSB CCs seem to be problematic so he might want to avoid those.


----------



## Tralen

Jonathan Moray said:


> Huh... that would make some sort of sense. Either way, I will probably report it when I have the time. It's not super bad, and I will have to be mindful to use CC33 between CC1 so as to not trigger it and I should be fine for now.


Ok, I confirmed what I thougt.

If you check the Event List, when the events are coincident, they are listed as a single event for ModWheel 14-bit. If they are offset, they are listed as two events.


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## Jonathan Moray

Tralen said:


> Ok, I confirmed what I thougt.
> 
> If you check the Event List, when the events are coincident, they are listed as a single event for ModWheel 14-bit. If they are offset, they are listed as two events.


That's why I would think there would be a way to disable 14-bit in REAPER somewhere... but I've been looking for months and not found anything yet. Because the way I noticed that it sometimes added it as a singular event was because it appears in the "More 14-bit" list in the CC events. Here:






Not sure if I ever figured out that it was because they coincided though, it's been a long time since I was trying to fix this. So that's really good to know.


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## Trash Panda

@EvilDragon do you have any ideas on how to force Reaper to not interpret simultaneous events in CC1/CC33 as 14-bit MIDI data?


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## EvilDragon

Hmmm I think there's no way around that, that's behavior as is by the book (MIDI specification).

I would just remap the assignments so that they don't end up being in a 14-bit CC pair.


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## Jonathan Moray

EvilDragon said:


> Hmmm I think there's no way around that, that's behavior as is by the book (MIDI specification).


Well then, that's that. If there's anyone who would know about this stuff, it's would probably be you. At least I now know what triggers it and how to avoid it. Thanks for chiming in.


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## EvilDragon

No prob


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## Raab

I finally got the party started and took care of my YT channel. Video is still not listed, as I'm not sure about branding, logos etc.

But here's for you all to hear the first track I've created with IB. Think of it as a main menu title of any WWII shooter or strategy game. The brass kicks in a bit later.




Brass = Infinite Brass
Strings = VSL SE, AI Areia Lite (patches made up by me to be somewhat playable like AV's libraries)
WW = VSL SE, EW SO Platinum (got IW now but not back then when making the track)
Percussion = EW SO Platinum, Toontrack SD3 Orch. Perc.

Have fun and let me know what you think!

EDIT: To avoid confusion: It’s still IB 1.5


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## Crevalation

Raab said:


> I finally got the party started and took care of my YT channel. Video is still not listed, as I'm not sure about branding, logos etc.
> 
> But here's for you all to hear the first track I've created with IB. Think of it as a main menu title of any WWII shooter or strategy game. The brass kicks in a bit later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brass = Infinite Brass
> Strings = VSL SE, AI Areia Lite (patches made up by me to be somewhat playable like AV's libraries)
> WW = VSL SE, EW SO Platinum (got IW now but not back then when making the track)
> Percussion = EW SO Platinum, Toontrack SD3 Orch. Perc.
> 
> Have fun and let me know what you think!



Wonderful composition👍 
Newbie here trying to tweak IB, are you able to shed some light on your EQing and any other FXs used for the brass?


----------



## Juulu

Raab said:


> I finally got the party started and took care of my YT channel. Video is still not listed, as I'm not sure about branding, logos etc.
> 
> But here's for you all to hear the first track I've created with IB. Think of it as a main menu title of any WWII shooter or strategy game. The brass kicks in a bit later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brass = Infinite Brass
> Strings = VSL SE, AI Areia Lite (patches made up by me to be somewhat playable like AV's libraries)
> WW = VSL SE, EW SO Platinum (got IW now but not back then when making the track)
> Percussion = EW SO Platinum, Toontrack SD3 Orch. Perc.
> 
> Have fun and let me know what you think!
> 
> EDIT: To avoid confusion: It’s still IB 1.5



Any reason you haven't upgraded to 1.6? Btw I really like how you control the dynamics. I have a bad habit of riding cc1 all the way to the top too often, getting into fff.


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## Raab

Crevalation said:


> Wonderful composition👍
> Newbie here trying to tweak IB, are you able to shed some light on your EQing and any other FXs used for the brass?


Thank you so much!
I’ll see if I can get some screenshots today or tomorrow.

Basically, every instrument group has an EQ to get rid of any resonances, mostly in the mids. I’m just using the build in EQ in Vienna Ensemble Pro 7.
Then, the brass gets summed up in a group channel with another EQ that rolls off a lot of low and high end. That makes the brass sit in the back of the (virtual) room. 
Also, I’m putting some Slate Virtual Console stuff for saturation on it.

The group has two send effects:
Parallel compression and reverb, the first being Sonnox Oxford Dynamics, the latter Seventh Heaven with some 1.9s hall setting. There’s really LOTS of reverb, even if it’s not that noticeable - just for placement.



Juulu said:


> Any reason you haven't upgraded to 1.6? Btw I really like how you control the dynamics. I have a bad habit of riding cc1 all the way to the top too often, getting into fff.


Thank you! IB 1.5 just wasn’t released back when making the track. 
I updated my template with IB 1.6 afterwards.
And I had to stop myself from going back into every project and update it. I’m somebody who would then start all over again and I’m trying to be more efficient and just say: Ok, it’s done.

That’s the reason why there’s also no IW in there, even if I’ve acquired it a few months ago.


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## Jamus

Raab said:


> And I had to stop myself from going back into every project and update it. I’m somebody who would then start all over again and I’m trying to be more efficient and just say: Ok, it’s done.


I believe this is wise. I need to work on this behaviour for myself. When the piece or section is done, be content with it and keep the train rollin'!


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## Raab

Jamus said:


> I believe this is wise. I need to work on this behaviour for myself. When the piece or section is done, be content with it and keep the train rollin'!


Yes exactly. I tend to overthink everything, going back, fixing things, fiddling around with CCs etc.
It’s hard to learn being contended and finding the end.

Anyway, I’m very happy with both IB and IW. It massively improved my workflow and minimized my time consumption. Now using both and Divisimate in a readily mixed template were the best investments over the last couple of years.


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## Tralen

For Reaper users, here are the Note/CC names for the Infinite series (as defined in the manual).

To load them, in your MIDI Editor, go to:
File > Note/CC Names > Load Note/CC Names from file


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## Mikro93

I've been really into Barbershop music recently. Here's Clouds On Fire by Terry Chapman.

I've experimented with a new set of plugins on the master bus, how does it sound?

Cheers


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## Jamus

Since using Infinite I've become sort of hyper-aware of the presence and phasing of dynamic layers in other libraries. I was playing around with one of my old favourite libraries earlier, which shall remain unnamed (rhymes with shmerlin shmoodwinds), and I just couldn't get past it. Loaded up IW flute in an instant and immediately felt like yeppp this is where it's at 😂


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## Marcube

Jamus said:


> Since using Infinite I've become sort of hyper-aware of the presence and phasing of dynamic layers in other libraries. I was playing around with one of my old favourite libraries earlier, which shall remain unnamed (rhymes with shmerlin shmoodwinds), and I just couldn't get past it. Loaded up IW flute in an instant and immediately felt like yeppp this is where it's at 😂


I noticed something similar in my strings library. I could hear when the legato sample ended; a clear drop in volume. I was sitting there for a few minutes till I realised “Oh it’s the library!?”


----------



## Jamus

Marcube said:


> I noticed something similar in my strings library. I could hear when the legato sample ended; a clear drop in volume. I was sitting there for a few minutes till I realised “Oh it’s the library!?”


Oh man, when I first realised legato samples were a thing back in the Hollywood Orchestra days I was devastated but at the same time I had much respect as I realised the scope of creating such a library with the ridiculous amount of recording that goes on. HW is particularly bad for legato samples. I actually still enjoy HS and HB 😁


----------



## El Buhdai

Demo - Dionysia — Aaron Venture







www.aaronventure.com





Okay, so I know I haven't been here in ages, but I would kill to know how this piece was mixed. This doesn't even sound like Infinite Brass/Woodwinds in tone... I'm blown away.

EDIT: I know there's a description but it's not enough. Even the stereo imaging is amazing.


----------



## Mikro93

El Buhdai said:


> Demo - Dionysia — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I know I haven't been here in ages, but I would kill to know how this piece was mixed. This doesn't even sound like Infinite Brass/Woodwinds in tone... I'm blown away.
> 
> EDIT: I know there's a description but it's not enough. Even the stereo imaging is amazing.


You could try and get in touch? I imagine this is who you're looking for:





__





Film Composer | Kurt Tomlinson Compositions | England


Kurt Tomlinson. Composer from West Yorkshire, UK. Contact for business enquiries.




www.kurttomlinsoncompositions.com









__





Log into Facebook


Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.




www.facebook.com


----------



## mutex

El Buhdai said:


> Demo - Dionysia — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I know I haven't been here in ages, but I would kill to know how this piece was mixed. This doesn't even sound like Infinite Brass/Woodwinds in tone... I'm blown away.
> 
> EDIT: I know there's a description but it's not enough. Even the stereo imaging is amazing.


If I had to guess, some EQ and most importantly... compression. As stated in the description.

EDIT: I like this video by Dan Worrall where he talks about weak mixes caused by a lack of compression.



"If you never compress too much, that makes me thing that in fact, you never compress enough. Because, how do you find the right amount except by adding too much and dialing it back a bit?" - Dan Worrall.


----------



## I like music

El Buhdai said:


> Demo - Dionysia — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I know I haven't been here in ages, but I would kill to know how this piece was mixed. This doesn't even sound like Infinite Brass/Woodwinds in tone... I'm blown away.
> 
> EDIT: I know there's a description but it's not enough. Even the stereo imaging is amazing.


Kurt's on here regularly. I just forgot his username, agh!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

El Buhdai said:


> Demo - Dionysia — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so I know I haven't been here in ages, but I would kill to know how this piece was mixed. This doesn't even sound like Infinite Brass/Woodwinds in tone... I'm blown away.
> 
> EDIT: I know there's a description but it's not enough. Even the stereo imaging is amazing.


Oh wow, thank you!
I'm struggling to remember exactly how I did certain things. Since then I've sort of switched from Reaper to Cubase and so I'm forgetting things haha. I would need to re-open the project and have a look at it. Just know that when it comes to FX on the instrument channels, I only really use EQ and panagement 2. The master channel has Ozone (auto) and OTT. Aaron himself added his own chain of mastering plugins to make it sound much warmer. 
I'll open it up and post some screenshots or videos or whatever because I'm honestly wondering myself 😂


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Oh wow, thank you!
> I'm struggling to remember exactly how I did certain things. Since then I've sort of switched from Reaper to Cubase and so I'm forgetting things haha. I would need to re-open the project and have a look at it. Just know that when it comes to FX on the instrument channels, I only really use EQ and panagement 2. The master channel has Ozone (auto) and OTT. Aaron himself added his own chain of mastering plugins to make it sound much warmer.
> I'll open it up and post some screenshots or videos or whatever because I'm honestly wondering myself 😂


Amazing! Interested in Panagement. Is this just to set the instruments back and pan a bit? Curious what you did on that point. I have Panagement and recently used them to pan the sections a bit.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I like music said:


> Amazing! Interested in Panagement. Is this just to set the instruments back and pan a bit? Curious what you did on that point. I have Panagement and recently used them to pan the sections a bit.


I use it just to pan because it's good at giving a visual reference. Tbh, I've been playing with the Precedence demo which I prefer, but not sure if it's worth paying extra for. I think I panned the low brass to the right quite a bit with panagement.


----------



## El Buhdai

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Oh wow, thank you!
> I'm struggling to remember exactly how I did certain things. Since then I've sort of switched from Reaper to Cubase and so I'm forgetting things haha. I would need to re-open the project and have a look at it. Just know that when it comes to FX on the instrument channels, I only really use EQ and panagement 2. The master channel has Ozone (auto) and OTT. Aaron himself added his own chain of mastering plugins to make it sound much warmer.
> I'll open it up and post some screenshots or videos or whatever because I'm honestly wondering myself 😂


Dude... just EQ and Panagement 2? Wow! Free or paid? I've used it a lot but I've never managed to get it to sound so full and intimate. Thanks for the response I really appreciate it! You've got me wanting to spend all day today pulling apart one of my finished unreleased pieces to try and match the mix on that demo.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

El Buhdai said:


> Dude... just EQ and Panagement 2? Wow! Free or paid? I've used it a lot but I've never managed to get it to sound so full and intimate. Thanks for the response I really appreciate it! You've got me wanting to spend all day today pulling apart one of my finished unreleased pieces to try and match the mix on that dem


No problem! 😊 I use the free version. I think it's just trial and error. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. I also recall using an exaggerated amount of the pitch shift knob on the brass (i forgot the name of the knob) lol.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

I don't know if I should to get the bundle or not. Not owning any Infinite instruments yet. I am looking for brass that can do fast, double and triple tounge.. And I don't have a dedicated woodwinds library except Auddict Solo 
Woodwinds and Vento. 

I am unsure if I am able to blend infinite with other libraries, adressing the rather dry sound in combination with the onboard IR..


----------



## Nando Florestan

There's no blending issue and the sound is dry if you want it to be, or wet if you want that.

Modeled instruments like this usually can play faster than traditionally sampled instruments and this is no exception.

I currently use the AudDict flute as my go-to. For all clarinets and bassoons, Infinite is my go-to.


----------



## Jamus

Fever Phoenix said:


> I don't know if I should to get the bundle or not. Not owning any Infinite instruments yet. I am looking for brass that can do fast, double and triple tounge.. And I don't have a dedicated woodwinds library except Auddict Solo
> Woodwinds and Vento.
> 
> I am unsure if I am able to blend infinite with other libraries, adressing the rather dry sound in combination with the onboard IR..


Doooo ittttttt


----------



## Russell Anderson

Fever Phoenix said:


> I don't know if I should to get the bundle or not. Not owning any Infinite instruments yet. I am looking for brass that can do fast, double and triple tounge.. And I don't have a dedicated woodwinds library except Auddict Solo
> Woodwinds and Vento.
> 
> I am unsure if I am able to blend infinite with other libraries, adressing the rather dry sound in combination with the onboard IR..


I had similar concerns about blending, but honestly I find the IR sound works perfectly well and the blending, Century Brass with Infinite works... super well, and with Abbey Road OF brass. It's a clean and surpringly good + flexible sound between the halls and mic positions, it blends seamlessly and the way the notes in Infinite connect better than basically anything else makes layering with it... It's like you're getting the best of both worlds, honestly is what I'm finding. I'm absolutely strapped for time though and I'm not sure I'll be able to post an example before next weekend. 

The woodwinds I have nothing to blend with and as of yet am not sure I'm going to want to blend them with anything because provided you perform the more expressive parts with some modulation (instruments that need tasteful vibrato like flute + double reeds take some more loving) it sounds better than anything else I've heard besides a couple of BWW demos. That does take time, though, so if I start writing a lot of orchestral music all the time I'll consider doing backgroundier stuff with those instruments with like, BWW a la carte if they fix the sine versions or something.


----------



## mutex

Do you guys usually use IB with Attack Range and Attack Time set to zero when playing things in?


----------



## Jamus

mutex said:


> Do you guys usually use IB with Attack Range and Attack Time set to zero when playing things in?


I personally set it to around 40-50 mostly because it helps with consistent attack/sustain volume along with keyboard velocity sensitivity. If I were to program notes in however I'd leave it maximum because dynamics at 0 and using only velocity for staccato seems to get best results for that type of thing. This attack feature is one of the main points of Infinite for me. Libraries like Berlin made an attempt at make attack types a thing but it still felt extremely limited in the sample world.

Attack time I probably have a decent way up. Not too long but not too short. Attack time, in my opinion, has a big effect on achieving a sonorous performance. I would rely on soft attacks when I can rather than CC sculpting.

I also set dynamic range to like 70-80 so that there's less volume range between 0-127. A MOD wheel for 0-127 being zero volume to maximum loudness is difficult for me to control so I sort of go for the idea that it's not exactly realistic to be playing a horn at almost no volume.

Funnily enough I'd recommend the opposite of all of that if you're using a breath controller 😂😂😂


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Mikro93

So.

Anybody having issues with a rendered file not sounding like the in-DAW playback?

Some notes seem to not be rendered with the right velocity or MW position. It's just a few notes here and there, not consistent from one render to another. But sometimes, something gets messed up and I get every other note in a phrase with a bumped up velocity.

I think I've narrowed it down to the Bass Trombone 1 in Infinite Brass 1.6 (at least in my track), being very inconsistent when played at the same vel and CC1. But the rendering definitely makes it worse.

I'll switch to BTB2 for now, that'll do!

EDIT: switching to BTB2 doesn't fix it.


----------



## Nando Florestan

Mikro93 said:


> Some notes seem to not be rendered with the right velocity or MW position. It's just a few notes here and there, not consistent from one render to another.


Suspicions:

1. You have humanization turned on in the patch, causing certain intervals to be played legatissimo only sometimes.
2. You have legatissimo in the MIDI sequence but it is too slight and the sequence needs to be clearer.


----------



## Mikro93

Nando Florestan said:


> Suspicions:
> 
> 1. You have humanization turned on in the patch, causing certain intervals to be played legatissimo only sometimes.
> 2. You have legatissimo in the MIDI sequence but it is too slight and the sequence needs to be clearer.


Thanks!

1. No humanization, that was my first idea. 
2. It's a staccatissimo part, no legato


----------



## morganwable

Well... I bought Sample Modeling Strings. It's ok. There is definitely a timbre problem - I'll still be using it in favor of bulkier libraries cause I like the flexibility, but it's disappointing compared to Infinite so far. Still, I don't think I'll regret having bought it, especially since it'll be so strong and versatile for solos and quartets and such.

The problem I'm running into now, though, is that I simply can't have strings, brass, and woodwinds active all at once, let alone also percussion. My computer can _just barely_ handle my current template - that being all of IB, a few assorted percussion instruments, IW from flutes down to oboes, and SMS from V1 (with divisi) down to Cellos. I press play and Reaper either plays, occasionally choking, but it freezes until playback has finished, or it just crashes.

This is concerning. I have an Intel i7-9750H, which in theory is a fairly decent processor.

Anybody got any tips?

I suppose I could live with:
1. limiting divisi, as in not adding it to the template until it's needed (not desirable)
2. using MIDI sends to consolidate parts of my Infinite pallette (I currently have duplicates of certain things to make divisi setup easier)
3. Closing everything else on my computer while composing (not desirable)
4. Or, as a last resort... freezing tracks. Which is, sadly, very tedious in Reaper.

Of the above, I guess #2 is my best bet, it'll just be a bit of extra work. Although I remain skeptical as to how much it will actually end up helping. 

I've heard Reaper is actually particularly _good_ at the whole multithreading thing so I'm not sure what my next steps are. I suppose I'll start saving up for a new computer, but that won't be for a while.


----------



## aaronventure

morganwable said:


> Anybody got any tips?



Increase your buffer size. Might take a bit of getting used to when playing in stuff. Back in the day, I used to work at 1024 samples size, as that was the CPU I had to work with. At that point, you're playing a bit "ahead"
Don't have any tracks selected when playing back your arrangement. If a MIDI track is armed or selected (and thus armed, if the auto-arm option is enabled), Reaper will not run it on all threads (at least that's what I think is happening, as it is definitely more prone to breakups on extra-loaded projects whenever you have an armed VI track


----------



## shawnsingh

morganwable said:


> Well... I bought Sample Modeling Strings. It's ok. There is definitely a timbre problem - I'll still be using it in favor of bulkier libraries cause I like the flexibility, but it's disappointing compared to Infinite so far. Still, I don't think I'll regret having bought it, especially since it'll be so strong and versatile for solos and quartets and such.
> 
> The problem I'm running into now, though, is that I simply can't have strings, brass, and woodwinds active all at once, let alone also percussion. My computer can _just barely_ handle my current template - that being all of IB, a few assorted percussion instruments, IW from flutes down to oboes, and SMS from V1 (with divisi) down to Cellos. I press play and Reaper either plays, occasionally choking, but it freezes until playback has finished, or it just crashes.
> 
> This is concerning. I have an Intel i7-9750H, which in theory is a fairly decent processor.
> 
> Anybody got any tips?
> 
> I suppose I could live with:
> 1. limiting divisi, as in not adding it to the template until it's needed (not desirable)
> 2. using MIDI sends to consolidate parts of my Infinite pallette (I currently have duplicates of certain things to make divisi setup easier)
> 3. Closing everything else on my computer while composing (not desirable)
> 4. Or, as a last resort... freezing tracks. Which is, sadly, very tedious in Reaper.
> 
> Of the above, I guess #2 is my best bet, it'll just be a bit of extra work. Although I remain skeptical as to how much it will actually end up helping.
> 
> I've heard Reaper is actually particularly _good_ at the whole multithreading thing so I'm not sure what my next steps are. I suppose I'll start saving up for a new computer, but that won't be for a while.


5. Increase audio buffer settings and accept the awkward lag

5b. Some DAWs have a feature that can route unselected tracks to a secondary, larger buffer, and keeps active tracks on a lower latency buffer. This may solve the lag of real-time playback, while still getting reduced cpu load of having larger buffers (except when you select a lot of tracks...)


----------



## Jamus

morganwable said:


> Well... I bought Sample Modeling Strings. It's ok. There is definitely a timbre problem - I'll still be using it in favor of bulkier libraries cause I like the flexibility, but it's disappointing compared to Infinite so far. Still, I don't think I'll regret having bought it, especially since it'll be so strong and versatile for solos and quartets and such.
> 
> The problem I'm running into now, though, is that I simply can't have strings, brass, and woodwinds active all at once, let alone also percussion. My computer can _just barely_ handle my current template - that being all of IB, a few assorted percussion instruments, IW from flutes down to oboes, and SMS from V1 (with divisi) down to Cellos. I press play and Reaper either plays, occasionally choking, but it freezes until playback has finished, or it just crashes.
> 
> This is concerning. I have an Intel i7-9750H, which in theory is a fairly decent processor.
> 
> Anybody got any tips?
> 
> I suppose I could live with:
> 1. limiting divisi, as in not adding it to the template until it's needed (not desirable)
> 2. using MIDI sends to consolidate parts of my Infinite pallette (I currently have duplicates of certain things to make divisi setup easier)
> 3. Closing everything else on my computer while composing (not desirable)
> 4. Or, as a last resort... freezing tracks. Which is, sadly, very tedious in Reaper.
> 
> Of the above, I guess #2 is my best bet, it'll just be a bit of extra work. Although I remain skeptical as to how much it will actually end up helping.
> 
> I've heard Reaper is actually particularly _good_ at the whole multithreading thing so I'm not sure what my next steps are. I suppose I'll start saving up for a new computer, but that won't be for a while.


Make sure you don't have the piano roll open, particularly with multiple tracks visible in the same piano roll. In Reaper this causes dramatic performance issues on MIDI playback, at least on my PC.


----------



## Dex

It’s because having the piano roll open or record arming a track disables look ahead rendering for that track.


----------



## Mikro93

I'm gonna leave this here: a track that I made with IW and IB only, a shameless repost from the Member's Composition section. It's a Waltz I wrote for my grandmother 

Lots of EQing out the low end everywhere. However, and that makes me quite proud: no external reverb, all Bersa Hall with various mic mixes depending on the instruments. I wanted to do Mixed Mics 5 only, but in the end, I preferred to dial in my settings.

I've blended in some saturation on the Brass mixing bus. I also have a soft compressor, a multiband compressor and an instance of Elevate on the master bus. It's my first time using Elevate, and it has been a very simple "crank-up-the-limiter-amount-until-sounds-loud-enough" process, I love it!

Enjoy


----------



## Trash Panda

I’m a bit embarrassed to admit that I’m only now figuring this out after banging my head against the wall with the trombones and sustained notes. 

If you’re finding the results are still a bit too uniform on long notes with the bones in particular, adding some very light vibrato rate with very shallow depth brings a lot more realism to them longer notes. We’re talking a vibrato rate from 1-8 and a depth between 2-16 here. Just enough to add that natural waver that’s missing by default, even with the pitch accuracy turned down.


----------



## DANIELE

Trash Panda said:


> I’m a bit embarrassed to admit that I’m only now figuring this out after banging my head against the wall with the trombones and sustained notes.
> 
> If you’re finding the results are still a bit too uniform on long notes with the bones in particular, adding some very light vibrato rate with very shallow depth brings a lot more realism to them longer notes. We’re talking a vibrato rate from 1-8 and a depth between 2-16 here. Just enough to add that natural waver that’s missing by default, even with the timing accuracy turned down.


Do yuo see? The beautiful thing with those instruments is that you never stop to discover new things and new ways to play them. This is so much fun for me.


----------



## hayvel

Hello to the infinite fan- and userbase. I am trying to decide on a small, portable composer rig and thought I might ask here for advice.

Since composing is not my primary source of income, my budget is somewhat limited. I am looking into a macbook m1 air or maybe a base m1 pro model with 16gb ram. 1-2 tb is max for storage depending on the model.

I am intrigued by the infinite series, not only but especially for the low storage and ram footprint. But the cpu demand seems to be high, and kontakt is not yet optimised for apple silicon, right?

So how do these instruments perform on apple silicon chips. Is it possible to go all in with IW/IB using all instruments in a divisi setup + some reasonably ram taxing strings, perc and other instruments depending on genre? Is the m1 sufficient 'as is' right now, should I go pro, screw the idea? Sorry if this has been desicussed earlier, I have not found definitive answers to this yet.

Any real world experience would be super helpful to know if I can 'go infinite' at all and what hardware to pick. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Trash Panda

I have found that the single thread/single core CPU performance is the most important benchmark of how well a machine can handle the Infinite Series. Not really too earth-shattering for many since it's typically the most important benchmark for many audio processing applications.

In that vein, assuming compatibility with Apple Silicon for Kontakt is in a good place, either natively supported or via Rosetta, which it seems to be based on my very surface-level research, I think you can't go wrong with any of the M1 chips as far as CPU goes as they all seem to only be topped by the latest generation of Intel desktop CPUs for single thread performance.









PassMark CPU Benchmarks - Single Thread Performance


Benchmarks of the single thread performance of CPUs. This chart comparing CPUs single thread performance is made using thousands of PerformanceTest benchmark results and is updated daily.



www.cpubenchmark.net





@Soundbed did some testing on his YouTube channel with traditional sample libraries, and the 16 gigs of RAM appears to still be a big bottleneck, but he might be able to chime in on how well the new M1s handle a combination of CPU heavy libraries like Infinite and RAM heavy traditional libraries.


----------



## Soundbed

Trash Panda said:


> @Soundbed did some testing on his YouTube channel with traditional sample libraries, and the 16 gigs of RAM appears to still be a big bottleneck, but he might be able to chime in on how well the new M1s handle a combination of CPU heavy libraries like Infinite and RAM heavy traditional libraries.


Good idea!

[FWIW — I was running into RAM issues with the default settings in Kontakt loading ONLY my solo cello patches (across all libraries) in the M1 I'm currently testing, which is the cheapest Mac Mini from costco having only 8GB of RAM. (This might not be surprising because before I get going, already ~6GB of RAM are taken when the system is running with "no apps" open.) This might be avoidable by changing the default settings of the Kontakt Preload buffer and loading more sounds from a fast drive.]



hayvel said:


> So how do these instruments perform on apple silicon chips. Is it possible to go all in with IW/IB using all instruments in a divisi setup + some reasonably ram taxing strings, perc and other instruments depending on genre? Is the m1 sufficient 'as is' right now



I can try to see what this 8GB RAM M1 Mac Mini can do, possibly later this week, is that all right? I have projects I need to deliver today and tomorrow, and I'm in the middle of gathering recordings for two or other videos already (lol).


----------



## hayvel

Trash Panda said:


> I have found that the single thread/single core CPU performance is the most important benchmark of how well a machine can handle the Infinite Series. Not really too earth-shattering for many since it's typically the most important benchmark for many audio processing applications.
> 
> In that vein, assuming compatibility with Apple Silicon for Kontakt is in a good place, either natively supported or via Rosetta, which it seems to be based on my very surface-level research, I think you can't go wrong with any of the M1 chips as far as CPU goes as they all seem to only be topped by the latest generation of Intel desktop CPUs for single thread performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PassMark CPU Benchmarks - Single Thread Performance
> 
> 
> Benchmarks of the single thread performance of CPUs. This chart comparing CPUs single thread performance is made using thousands of PerformanceTest benchmark results and is updated daily.
> 
> 
> 
> www.cpubenchmark.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Soundbed did some testing on his YouTube channel with traditional sample libraries, and the 16 gigs of RAM appears to still be a big bottleneck, but he might be able to chime in on how well the new M1s handle a combination of CPU heavy libraries like Infinite and RAM heavy traditional libraries.


Hey, thank you for your detailed answer and for your help! Sounds reasonable to look at cpu benchmarks, and I tried to form a solid opinion on the general performance of the M1 chips before, but still I am uncertain how they apply to my usecase. There are so many factors that can affect the results here.



Soundbed said:


> Good idea!
> 
> [FWIW — I was running into RAM issues with the default settings in Kontakt loading ONLY my solo cello patches (across all libraries) in the M1 I'm currently testing, which is the cheapest Mac Mini from costco having only 8GB of RAM. (This might not be surprising because before I get going, already ~6GB of RAM are taken when the system is running with "no apps" open.) This might be avoidable by changing the default settings of the Kontakt Preload buffer and loading more sounds from a fast drive.]
> 
> 
> 
> I can try to see what this 8GB RAM M1 Mac Mini can do, possibly later this week, is that all right? I have projects I need to deliver today and tomorrow, and I'm in the middle of gathering recordings for two or other videos already (lol).


Hey Soundbed, thank you so much! It is absolutely generous of you to offer your time to make some test with your setup. It was actually not my intention to have anyone specifically dedicate time to this, I was just looking for some insights from people who already have experience with the combination of infinite and M1. So, yes, of course this is alright! Only when and if you feel like it. No expectations on my end.


----------



## morganwable

Speaking of performance - has anybody tested out the performance of, for example:
- 6 french horns loaded into one track on one instance of Kontakt, then controlled with 6 midi channels
vs.
- 6 tracks, each with an instance of Kontakt and one of the french horns individually?

I know with conventional libraries, the first option would be vastly better because of RAM reasons. But what about Infinite?

I'm about to start building a very elaborate new orchestra template now that I have SMS and I'd like to route everything as efficiently as possible.

If it's relevant, I'm using Reaper.


----------



## Tralen

morganwable said:


> Speaking of performance - has anybody tested out the performance of, for example:
> - 6 french horns loaded into one track on one instance of Kontakt, then controlled with 6 midi channels
> vs.
> - 6 tracks, each with an instance of Kontakt and one of the french horns individually?
> 
> I know with conventional libraries, the first option would be vastly better because of RAM reasons. But what about Infinite?
> 
> I'm about to start building a very elaborate new orchestra template now that I have SMS and I'd like to route everything as efficiently as possible.
> 
> If it's relevant, I'm using Reaper.


I don't think you will get vastly improved RAM usage on the first case unless you are loading several copies of the same instrument, sharing samples, instead of different samples for each. Also, the RAM usage of Kontakt itself is not that great to matter, compared to the footprint of the loaded libraries.

Your second case is usually what presents better performance, as multithreading in DAWs (Reaper in particular) is directly tied to track usage, each track using a thread. Therefore, CPU-wise, I'm confident the best performance will be with a Kontakt instance for each instrument/track.


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> Speaking of performance - has anybody tested out the performance of, for example:
> - 6 french horns loaded into one track on one instance of Kontakt, then controlled with 6 midi channels
> vs.
> - 6 tracks, each with an instance of Kontakt and one of the french horns individually?
> 
> I know with conventional libraries, the first option would be vastly better because of RAM reasons. But what about Infinite?
> 
> I'm about to start building a very elaborate new orchestra template now that I have SMS and I'd like to route everything as efficiently as possible.
> 
> If it's relevant, I'm using Reaper.


I have seen best results with one instrument per track and using a track that sends MIDI to multiple other tracks for sketching (horns a6 sends to all 6 horns, horns a2-1 goes to horns 1&3 while horns a2-2 goes to horns 2&4).


----------



## morganwable

Excellent. That's what I was hoping to hear, at least - trying to squeeze every last bit of juice out of my current machine, because I will not be able to upgrade for at least another 6 months to a year.



Trash Panda said:


> I have seen best results with one instrument per track and using a track that sends MIDI to multiple other tracks for sketching (horns a6 sends to all 6 horns, horns a2-1 goes to horns 1&3 while horns a2-2 goes to horns 2&4).


Not sure why I thought my computer could handle it, but in the first big sketch I did when I bought IB, I had not only whole groups per track (and no MIDI sends)... but I had a solo horn, a horns a6, and two horns a3. Same for the trumpets. So basically I was running like 1.5 as many instruments as I actually needed. I'm fixing that for sure next time.

I was only wondering if "Kontakt instance per instrument _group_" might be faster than or equivalent to "Kontakt instance per _individual instrument_" (i.e. - 100+ instances for a whole orchestra) because of diminishing returns. But, as it appears that is not the case... I guess I'm going to start building my template.

Which brings me to another topic!

What are some template features you all have found useful while working with Infinite? Bonus points if you also use SMS.

Things that come to mind:
- standardized CC routing so all instruments take the same general cues (mainly, making it so that SMS accepts modwheel for dynamics, instead of expression, to make passages more copy-pastable)

- a global, "conductor" track to control the AV space selection without having to go in and do it for every single instrument, as well as other things (section volume, maybe some sort of JS to add/subtract a certain amount of modwheel from an entire section with one CC - to avoid having to redraw a bunch of CC events) - this one is something I had wanted to do while still using FL studio. It might be complicated beyond my comfort zone to implement in Reaper, though. Especially that last bit.

- good reverb, mixing, and mastering workflows that work with these libraries I know this has been discussed at length, but what is the currently prevailing wisdom here? With my first AV-based template, I was getting ridiculous amounts of mud from trying to use too many plugins. I'm also just generally not that good at mixing.

I do really like the idea of being able to pass CC through a whole section at once in order to adjust all the dynamics within it. I'm going to have to decide whether or not that's both feasible and sensible to pursue.


----------



## Trash Panda

I’ll post my Infinite template and save you some time after I put the kid to bed. It’s got the space selector, mix mic selector, etc. all built in.


----------



## Tralen

morganwable said:


> Excellent. That's what I was hoping to hear, at least - trying to squeeze every last bit of juice out of my current machine, because I will not be able to upgrade for at least another 6 months to a year.
> 
> I was only wondering if "Kontakt instance per instrument _group_" might be faster than or equivalent to "Kontakt instance per _individual instrument_" (i.e. - 100+ instances for a whole orchestra) because of diminishing returns. But, as it appears that is not the case... I guess I'm going to start building my template.
> 
> Which brings me to another topic!
> 
> What are some template features you all have found useful while working with Infinite? Bonus points if you also use SMS.
> 
> Things that come to mind:
> - standardized CC routing so all instruments take the same general cues (mainly, making it so that SMS accepts modwheel for dynamics, instead of expression, to make passages more copy-pastable)
> 
> - a global, "conductor" track to control the AV space selection without having to go in and do it for every single instrument, as well as other things (section volume, maybe some sort of JS to add/subtract a certain amount of modwheel from an entire section with one CC - to avoid having to redraw a bunch of CC events) - this one is something I had wanted to do while still using FL studio. It might be complicated beyond my comfort zone to implement in Reaper, though. Especially that last bit.
> 
> - good reverb, mixing, and mastering workflows that work with these libraries I know this has been discussed at length, but what is the currently prevailing wisdom here? With my first AV-based template, I was getting ridiculous amounts of mud from trying to use too many plugins. I'm also just generally not that good at mixing.
> 
> I do really like the idea of being able to pass CC through a whole section at once in order to adjust all the dynamics within it. I'm going to have to decide whether or not that's both feasible and sensible to pursue.


SMS: Sample Modeling Strings?

Anyway, I use standardized CC routing, so I can move a MIDI item from one track to another and it will play mostly correct. I configure all CCs from SM, IW and other libraries to be the same. I'm not using IB currently.

I use 2 CCs for dynamics and I average them with a plugin. With the first (CC1) I control the fine intra-note details and with the second (CC2) I control the overall phrase dynamics.

For spatialization I'm using DearVR for early reflections and VSR S24 for reverb, but sometimes I use Panagement instead of DearVR. I'm using IW mostly dry to match SM better.

In Reaper, you can use tempo markers for basic tempo and automate the playrate for accelerandos/ritardandos.

You could try routing just the MIDI from a track to all instruments and use that as a "conductor" for dynamics, but I'm not sure if that would be overwritten by the MIDI in each track. If it is in a different CC number perhaps, you could then average that with CC1 using a plugin.


----------



## Trash Panda

Here's my IW/IB Reaper Template, complete with controls for all the critical items, such as space selector, mic volume levels, etc.

Edit: Controller track uses the "MIDI Slider and MIDI CC" JS by Michael Schnell that can be found through ReaPack: https://reapack.com/


----------



## Ivan Duch

Trash Panda said:


> Here's my IW/IB Reaper Template, complete with controls for all the critical items, such as space selector, mic volume levels, etc.


Thanks for sharing! I just downloaded it for testing. I'm curious about 2 things: 

1. How do you use the ensemble tracks? For playing unisons?
2. The effects in the controller tracks (Space Selector, and so on), fail to load. Are they some custom plugins effects?


----------



## DANIELE

For spacing I use Precedence + Breeze and it is very light on resources.

About a general control to set/control all the tracks you need I'm using a Stream Deck with the Midi plugin and I setup a folder with all the settings I need inside. So everytime I want to set a specific value for different instrument I arm record them and I'm in with one click.

The stream deck (I have two of them the medium and the large ones) is a very powerful tool to have, I automated a lot of things with it.


----------



## Tag

morganwable said:


> Speaking of performance - has anybody tested out the performance of, for example:
> - 6 french horns loaded into one track on one instance of Kontakt, then controlled with 6 midi channels
> vs.
> - 6 tracks, each with an instance of Kontakt and one of the french horns individually?


I did tests once and my conclusion was (at least on my system) that one Kontakt instance for a section was the best. So I e.g. have one Kontakt for the flutes, one for the horns, etc.

Regarding reverb: I love to use the mixed studio mics in Infinite and use mainly just one single ValhallaRoom instance in a send for all these instances. It's very CPU friendly on my system and works very smoothly .. and still sounds incredible to me. <3


----------



## Trash Panda

Ivan Duch said:


> Thanks for sharing! I just downloaded it for testing. I'm curious about 2 things:
> 
> 1. How do you use the ensemble tracks? For playing unisons?
> 2. The effects in the controller tracks (Space Selector, and so on), fail to load. Are they some custom plugins effects?


1. Yup!
2. Whoops! That's using the MIDI Slider and MIDI CC JS by Michael Schnell that can be found through ReaPack.


----------



## morganwable

Tag said:


> I did tests once and my conclusion was (at least on my system) that one Kontakt instance for a section was the best. So I e.g. have one Kontakt for the flutes, one for the horns, etc.
> 
> Regarding reverb: I love to use the mixed studio mics in Infinite and use mainly just one single ValhallaRoom instance in a send for all these instances. It's very CPU friendly on my system and works very smoothly .. and still sounds incredible to me. <3


hm. I guess I may have to spend some time A/B testing this. Or perhaps not. Probably not, actually.

And man... I always hear people singing the praises of Valhalla and Seventh Heaven, but I feel like every time I try to use either it just sounds awful.



Trash Panda said:


> 1. Yup!
> 2. Whoops! That's using the MIDI Slider and MIDI CC JS by Michael Schnell that can be found through ReaPack.


Wow - I just loaded this up and it's pretty great. Somewhat similar to what I had in mind, to be honest.
I wonder if it'd be possible to set up per-track overrides for any of those sliders - like for the mic mixes - so that I can bring soloists out for certain passages. Does the track midi data override the sliders plugin?


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> Wow - I just loaded this up and it's pretty great. Somewhat similar to what I had in mind, to be honest.
> I wonder if it'd be possible to set up per-track overrides for any of those sliders - like for the mic mixes - so that I can bring soloists out for certain passages. Does the track midi data override the sliders plugin?


The plugins on the controller track would only apply changes in the moment you make them, unless you assign automation to it. Track level CC data would override it until you made another change via the plugin.

You can also make more copies of that track and change which instrument tracks it sends to if you want to create your own custom groups (such as one for Flutes, one for Oboes, etc.).

In fact, I might just do that myself and upload it.


----------



## morganwable

While we're on the topic of this template, MIDI sends, and performance - does having all of the audio sends as well as MIDI sends active impact performance?


----------



## Trash Panda

morganwable said:


> While we're on the topic of this template, MIDI sends, and performance - does having all of the audio sends as well as MIDI sends active impact performance?


No, it just sends audio if an audio item is present on that track. Reaper just sees an audio item or a MIDI item and sends whatever is present, processed by the DAW according to the item type. Every track can simultaneously be an audio track, MIDI track, bus, folder, etc.

Here's the updated template with section level control tracks.


----------



## Crevalation

Hi, does anyone have a Cubase or S1 template for the same purpose (IB and/or IW) to share?


----------



## PerryD

There was a different thread that was comparing low string shorts. I pulled up Elite Strings to play some short notes. I came up with a short motif and put Infinite French horns & trumpets in it. They worked really well with the Bersa hall.


----------



## lljfnord

I'm about to purchase a TEC USB MIDI Breath Controller, and I'd like to hear from other IB and IW users who have one of these units about how you've set things up. What have you changed in either the Breath Controller's Configuration Utility or in IB/IW's default CC# assignments to make things function more smoothly?


----------



## Nando Florestan

morganwable said:


> some sort of JS to add/subtract a certain amount of modwheel from an entire section with one CC


I wrote a JS plugin that watches the values of CC1 and CC4 and outputs something to CC1, hiding CC4. The output is given by (CC1value + CC4value - 64). But my purpose is simply to control dynamics in two passes. First I input generic, linear crescendos and decrescendos on CC1 while I am composing. It's the main shape and I never touch it again unless it is something that I would change in notation (a drastic change). And I keep CC4 static in the middle (64). For the 2nd pass -- tweaking the performance -- I add CC4 changes which start and end in the middle. These are interferences to:

1. Tweak the temporary loudness of an instrument to better match the others;
2. Tweak the temporary loudness of an instrument to bring it out when appropriate;
3. Accelerate or decelerate a crescendo or decrescendo;
4. Add randomness without mixing it into the main CC1 signal, so one can be edited separately from the other.


----------



## morganwable

Nando Florestan said:


> I wrote a JS plugin that watches the values of CC1 and CC4 and outputs something to CC1, hiding CC4. The output is given by (CC1value + CC4value - 64). But my purpose is simply to control dynamics in two passes. First I input generic, linear crescendos and decrescendos on CC1 while I am composing. It's the main shape and I never touch it again unless it is something that I would change in notation (a drastic change). And I keep CC4 static in the middle (64). For the 2nd pass -- tweaking the performance -- I add CC4 changes which start and end in the middle. These are interferences to:
> 
> 1. Tweak the temporary loudness of an instrument to better match the others;
> 2. Tweak the temporary loudness of an instrument to bring it out when appropriate;
> 3. Accelerate or decelerate a crescendo or decrescendo;
> 4. Add randomness without mixing it into the main CC1 signal, so one can be edited separately from the other.


Can you share that script?
This (as well as a similar "corrections" channel functionality section and instrument group-wide) is something I'd be interested in leveraging.

At the risk of over-templating, though...


----------



## Ivan M.

lljfnord said:


> I'm about to purchase a TEC USB MIDI Breath Controller, and I'd like to hear from other IB and IW users who have one of these units about how you've set things up. What have you changed in either the Breath Controller's Configuration Utility or in IB/IW's default CC# assignments to make things function more smoothly?


I adjust the sensitivity using the provided app to what’s comfortable to me, sometimes change it between using woodwinds and brass. Also assign the output data to CC1 (or something else depending on the instrument). And that’s it, nothing special. Just be gentle with dynamics to keep the dynamics and timbre comfortable.


----------



## Ivan M.

Nando Florestan said:


> I wrote a JS plugin that watches the values of CC1 and CC4 and outputs something to CC1, hiding CC4. The output is given by (CC1value + CC4value - 64). But my purpose is simply to control dynamics in two passes. First I input generic, linear crescendos and decrescendos on CC1 while I am composing. It's the main shape and I never touch it again unless it is something that I would change in notation (a drastic change). And I keep CC4 static in the middle (64). For the 2nd pass -- tweaking the performance -- I add CC4 changes which start and end in the middle. These are interferences to:
> 
> 1. Tweak the temporary loudness of an instrument to better match the others;
> 2. Tweak the temporary loudness of an instrument to bring it out when appropriate;
> 3. Accelerate or decelerate a crescendo or decrescendo;
> 4. Add randomness without mixing it into the main CC1 signal, so one can be edited separately from the other.


That’s a great idea! You could also route a single midi track to each of the ensemble tracks, to control dynamics of the whole section from a single place, and then just add minor adjustments to each track individually. 
We already mentioned this idea before, somewhere on the forum, but no one took the time to solve it.
Easy in Reaper, not sure about others, though.


----------



## filipjonathan

Sorry for barging in totally oblivious, I just discovered the Infinite series. I saw that the strings are due next year. Are there any demos or more info than on the website? (Can't really go through this whole thread)


----------



## Trash Panda

filipjonathan said:


> Sorry for barging in totally oblivious, I just discovered the Infinite series. I saw that the strings are due next year. Are there any demos or more info than on the website? (Can't really go through this whole thread)


Only information are a few small knowledge nuggets Aaron has shared in this thread. No demos, sneak peaks, etc.


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## filipjonathan

Trash Panda said:


> Only information are a few small knowledge nuggets Aaron has shared in this thread. No demos, sneak peaks, etc.


Thanks! Do we know the section sizes?


----------



## Saxer

lljfnord said:


> I'm about to purchase a TEC USB MIDI Breath Controller, and I'd like to hear from other IB and IW users who have one of these units about how you've set things up. What have you changed in either the Breath Controller's Configuration Utility or in IB/IW's default CC# assignments to make things function more smoothly?


My TEControl is set to CC1


----------



## Trash Panda

filipjonathan said:


> Thanks! Do we know the section sizes?


Same story as Woodwinds and Brass. Soloists on the low end, until your CPU melts on the high end.


----------



## Frederick

filipjonathan said:


> Thanks! Do we know the section sizes?


From the FAQ on his website:

WHEN IS ‘INFINITE STRINGS’ COMING OUT? WHAT WILL THE PRICE BE? WILL IT HAVE SECTIONS OR JUST SOLO INSTRUMENTS?​Infinite Strings are currently in development. There is currently no official release date, and no unofficial ETA.

The price will be $399, and owners of Infinite Brass and/or Infinite Woodwinds will be able to crossgrade for $299.

Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. Also, all 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch.

DO YOU HAVE ANY NEWS ON ‘INFINITE STRINGS’?​Aside from what’s written in the answer to the previous question, no.


----------



## filipjonathan

Frederick said:


> From the FAQ on his website:
> 
> WHEN IS ‘INFINITE STRINGS’ COMING OUT? WHAT WILL THE PRICE BE? WILL IT HAVE SECTIONS OR JUST SOLO INSTRUMENTS?​Infinite Strings are currently in development. There is currently no official release date, and no unofficial ETA.
> 
> The price will be $399, and owners of Infinite Brass and/or Infinite Woodwinds will be able to crossgrade for $299.
> 
> Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. Also, all 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch.
> 
> DO YOU HAVE ANY NEWS ON ‘INFINITE STRINGS’?​Aside from what’s written in the answer to the previous question, no.


Thanks!


----------



## Be_Sharp

lljfnord said:


> I'm about to purchase a TEC USB MIDI Breath Controller, and I'd like to hear from other IB and IW users who have one of these units about how you've set things up. What have you changed in either the Breath Controller's Configuration Utility or in IB/IW's default CC# assignments to make things function more smoothly?


I'm still getting to grips with the breath controller but so far I've found i had to change the breath sensitivity using the TEControl software. Here is a screen grab of my settings.


----------



## RonV

lljfnord said:


> I'm about to purchase a TEC USB MIDI Breath Controller, and I'd like to hear from other IB and IW users who have one of these units about how you've set things up. What have you changed in either the Breath Controller's Configuration Utility or in IB/IW's default CC# assignments to make things function more smoothly?


Try various min-max settings as some have already suggested. Also, try changing the Attack and Release sliders. They will smooth out the response to any of the controls. If you increase the attack and release times a bit, the controller will more easily product smoother CC "arcs", if that's what you want.


----------



## lljfnord

Thanks to everyone who has given insight on using the TEControl Breath Controller! I really appreciate the help. I think I'll be more ready to use it when it arrives: I ordered one after reading your input. 

Now, I have a question on a completely different subject, one which will expose me as a total n00b. Do any of you have a template for use with either IB or IW and Cakewalk by Bandlab? I've just been using individual parts in isolated places up until now, and I'd like to take full advantage of what I've bought. Thanks again for your help!


----------



## Nando Florestan

Ivan M. said:


> That’s a great idea!





morganwable said:


> Can you share that script?


Please see https://github.com/nandoflorestan/midi-effects
I also wrote a better version of it in Lua, but Protoplug isn't stable for me; I wish someone would help debug it:








error calling plugin_processBlock() : not enough memory · Issue #47 · pac-dev/protoplug


I have a MIDI effect that, after a while, errors out with the message error calling plugin_processBlock() : not enough memory and stops doing anything. My code is the following: require "inclu...




github.com


----------



## zigzag

Nando Florestan said:


> Please see https://github.com/nandoflorestan/midi-effects
> I also wrote a better version of it in Lua, but Protoplug isn't stable for me; I wish someone would help debug it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> error calling plugin_processBlock() : not enough memory · Issue #47 · pac-dev/protoplug
> 
> 
> I have a MIDI effect that, after a while, errors out with the message error calling plugin_processBlock() : not enough memory and stops doing anything. My code is the following: require "inclu...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> github.com


I don't know Lua well, but I think the problem is this line:
for i=0, #outEvents do outEvents[i] = nil end -- Clear the list

I think it's not clearing the list, but setting all elements of the list to _nil_ value. So, if there are 100 items in the list, there will still be 100 items of _nil_ after that line is called. And next timetable.insert() is called number of items will increase to 101, 102, 103 etc. The outEvents table thus grows indefinitely. 

To fix it, use outEvents = {} instead, to create a new instance of the table.

Alternative would be to use outEvents[i] = ... instead of table.insert() calls, but you would have to keep track of the index manually. This might be faster, but I'm not sure it is worth the effort.


----------



## Ivan M.

Nando Florestan said:


> Please see https://github.com/nandoflorestan/midi-effects
> I also wrote a better version of it in Lua, but Protoplug isn't stable for me; I wish someone would help debug it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> error calling plugin_processBlock() : not enough memory · Issue #47 · pac-dev/protoplug
> 
> 
> I have a MIDI effect that, after a while, errors out with the message error calling plugin_processBlock() : not enough memory and stops doing anything. My code is the following: require "inclu...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> github.com


Cool! How would you compare Protoplug and ReaJS? Protoplug api seems much more developer friendly


----------



## morganwable

Aside from literally keeping the CC values on a sticky note next to my workstation, anybody figured out a convenient way of switching IB mutes without having to open up the UI or add extra tracks?

Also:

...where is the documentation for IW?
The IB guide is on the website but I see no trace of there being such a thing for the woodwinds.


----------



## sound team apk

morganwable said:


> Aside from literally keeping the CC values on a sticky note next to my workstation, anybody figured out a convenient way of switching IB mutes without having to open up the UI or add extra tracks?


In Cubase I use expression maps for the brass mutes as well as a few other discrete performance settings, such as progressive vibrato on / off. That lets me replace several CC lanes with note attributes and save the right CC values for the various settings so I never have to think about them again. I typically use note-level attributes so I can edit them directly on the piano roll itself and avoid the articulation lane in the MIDI editor. I like to hide as many switches / enumerated values inside expression maps as possible and save CC lanes / tracks for truly continuous controls. 

I believe Reaticulate wouldn't be quite as integrated into the piano roll, but otherwise it would give me most of the same benefits ... someone who actually uses Reaper for MIDI editing might have cleverer ways to achieve the same goals.



morganwable said:


> Also:
> 
> ...where is the documentation for IW?
> The IB guide is on the website but I see no trace of there being such a thing for the woodwinds.


I have a "Documentation" directory in the IW install folder.


----------



## Gauss

morganwable said:


> Aside from literally keeping the CC values on a sticky note next to my workstation, anybody figured out a convenient way of switching IB mutes without having to open up the UI or add extra tracks?


There is a hack in Reaper that I use if I want to switch to only one type of mute. In ReaPack there is effect "MIDI CC Bistate button". Put it on FX rack before Kontakt. Then you can set it for CC26. Set OFF value to 0 and ON at the desired value for the mute. Set the type to Push Button. And there you go. Move fader through the midpoint and the mute is applied, move it back and the mute is taken off.
I also set the Threshold to 32 instead of default 64, for the shorter fader movement, so the mute is applied at 1/4th of the fader length.


----------



## DANIELE

I'm a bit late but usually with the Breath Controller I use breath for the dynamics and bite for vibrato. I use less the other two controls.


----------



## Tag

morganwable said:


> hm. I guess I may have to spend some time A/B testing this. Or perhaps not. Probably not, actually.
> 
> And man... I always hear people singing the praises of Valhalla and Seventh Heaven, but I feel like every time I try to use either it just sounds awful.


Use whatever is best for *you* and not what others say. (-; ... I, for example, did absolutely not get the hype with Seventh Heaven or Cinematic Rooms. To me they were just CPU killers for a worse reverb sound than Valhalla.

Also: I tested Valhalla VintageVerb sooo often; this one gets hyped as well, AFAIK. I just do not like it either, haha. I just love Valhalla Room for real spaces and sometimes Valhalla Plate for more "flat" sounding ... well, obviously plate sounding verbs. (-;


----------



## Fever Phoenix

I finally made up my mind and bought the infinite bundle last night and I have to say, it is one of these rare purchases that made me immediately happy while playing the first few notes. 

I only had time to go over a few instruments, but I am mostly just amazed by sound and intuitive control!


----------



## Loïc D

The only very annoying thing to me is the systematic hanging notes when I stop playback (and sometimes when I start it).


----------



## scoplunk

Yes! I've gotten used to working around this issue, so I forget to mention it, but this is a big annoyance. Is there any way to fix this behavior? I love these libraries, but the hanging notes really get in the way.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

It's really strange, I get pretty much zero hanging notes after the latest update to Infinite Brass. Although I don't use the inbuilt humanisation at all, or if I do, I keep it very low. It's been stated a couple of times that that feature could be the root of some of the hanging notes, it was for me and some other folks.

I've seen a few people complain about this but I've yet to see anyone actually do any investigating to try and find the cause (It's very possible I've missed it). Here's a couple of the most basic question that could be good to answer to get the ball rolling to see what the cause is.

Are you guys using the humanize feature? What DAW are you using? Can you send a midi file of the problem? A picture of the notes, bpm, and the settings inside of the instrument? Is it replicable? Does it happen every time at the exact same spot? Does it happen with all instruments? Is it both Infinite Brass and Woodwinds? Are you using the latest version? Etc.


----------



## Saxer

I can avoid most hanging notes when switching of chasing notes in the DAW (Logic in my case). It doesn't play sustained notes that start before the song position line when pressing play but that's better than hanging notes.


----------



## morganwable

~195gb just freed up lol
(SSS, SSW, CSB)

Brainstorming here: I wonder if, at least for Reaper users_ (joiiin usss.....)_, some sort of custom script would stop the hanging notes situation. Here me out - remap the space bar to a custom action that basically tells Reaper to
1. stop playback (in the normal way that the space bar is supposed to)
2. wait 100ms
3. stop all notes again

I bet that would work, at least as a band aid solution.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to do this myself. Anybody got ideas?


----------



## scoplunk

Jonathan Moray said:


> It's really strange, I get pretty much zero hanging notes after the latest update to Infinite Brass. Although I don't use the inbuilt humanisation at all, or if I do, I keep it very low. It's been stated a couple of times that that feature could be the root of some of the hanging notes, it was for me and some other folks.
> 
> I've seen a few people complain about this but I've yet to see anyone actually do any investigating to try and find the cause (It's very possible I've missed it). Here's a couple of the most basic question that could be good to answer to get the ball rolling to see what the cause is.
> 
> Are you guys using the humanize feature? What DAW are you using? Can you send a midi file of the problem? A picture of the notes, bpm, and the settings inside of the instrument? Is it replicable? Does it happen every time at the exact same spot? Does it happen with all instruments? Is it both Infinite Brass and Woodwinds? Are you using the latest version? Etc.


Humanize - off. I play each part individually, so I auto-humanize. Using Logic. Like Saxer, the problem goes away if I get rid of chasing notes, but that's not a great solution and this is the only library I have that causes this issue. No other Kontakt library does it and no other plug in that I own does it. I have the latest versions of both IB and IW and they both do it. It could be something between Logic and the scripts that IB and IW use. It also seems to be consistent in the sense that if I start playback from certain measures, I'll always get hung notes, but if I start at a different point in the song or measure, there's no problem.

These are good questions. Thanks for coming up with something useful to solve the problem. Maybe other people who have this issue can add more info and we can get enough info to give to Aaron and maybe find a solution.


----------



## scoplunk

morganwable said:


> ~195gb just freed up lol
> (SSS, SSW, CSB)
> 
> Brainstorming here: I wonder if, at least for Reaper users_ (joiiin usss.....)_, some sort of custom script would stop the hanging notes situation. Here me out - remap the space bar to a custom action that basically tells Reaper to
> 1. stop playback (in the normal way that the space bar is supposed to)
> 2. wait 100ms
> 3. stop all notes again
> 
> I bet that would work, at least as a band aid solution.
> Unfortunately I have no clue how to do this myself. Anybody got ideas?


I never thought about this. There's an all notes off key command in Logic, but I've never assigned it or used it. It's definitely worth a try. Thanks!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

morganwable said:


> ~195gb just freed up lol
> (SSS, SSW, CSB)
> 
> Brainstorming here: I wonder if, at least for Reaper users_ (joiiin usss.....)_, some sort of custom script would stop the hanging notes situation. Here me out - remap the space bar to a custom action that basically tells Reaper to
> 1. stop playback (in the normal way that the space bar is supposed to)
> 2. wait 100ms
> 3. stop all notes again
> 
> I bet that would work, at least as a band aid solution.
> Unfortunately I have no clue how to do this myself. Anybody got ideas?


F12 doesn't work? I can't test it since I rarely get hanging notes with Infinite, but I use F12 for a couple of similar scenarios.

Off-topic, I'm surprised you got rid of CSB, even if IB can do what most of those can do, CSB is still a great library.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

scoplunk said:


> Humanize - off. I play each part individually, so I auto-humanize. Using Logic. Like Saxer, the problem goes away if I get rid of chasing notes, but that's not a great solution and this is the only library I have that causes this issue. No other Kontakt library does it and no other plug in that I own does it. I have the latest versions of both IB and IW and they both do it. It could be something between Logic and the scripts that IB and IW use. It also seems to be consistent in the sense that if I start playback from certain measures, I'll always get hung notes, but if I start at a different point in the song or measure, there's no problem.
> 
> These are good questions. Thanks for coming up with something useful to solve the problem. Maybe other people who have this issue can add more info and we can get enough info to give to Aaron and maybe find a solution.


Good info. The chasing thing is interesting. Is that basically a lookahead/playback offset feature in Logic or am I misunderstanding its usage?

Do you get hanging notes during playback or only when you stop playback?

I was thinking that maybe you were using Cubase since I read that ISW new library, Tokyo Scoring Strings, had some problems with the way Cubase might handle on/off on notes, could be something similar with Logic and Infinite.

Because the way you got hanging notes before with Infinite (at least from tests), was when the note is too short to properly send its note-off messages. If you had humanization enabled it moved the start of the note around and sometimes it seemed as if it moved the note-on so far that it came after the note-off meaning the DAW never got its note-off message. That's why most people got hanging notes when stopping playback because if you stopped the playback just at the start of a note it would never send its off message in time. At least that's what it seemed like.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Since we are basically bug reporting, I will throw two of the bugs I've found into the mix. Not sure if it's system dependent, but I doubt it.

I found these a couple of months ago but didn't want to post them until after Infinite Strings because I didn't want to distract from the development. But I might as well now since it could be 12m until release.

First is a strange dynamic jump when playing legato of more than 12 semi-notes. So for example C to D and octave above maxes out the dynamics during the transition. It only happens when your modwheel is in the top half already. Audio example attached.

The second one I'm not even sure is a bug, but when you keep your sustain pedal pressed (legato disabled) try playing sustaining chords with one hand and shorter notes with the other. You will see that the sustaining notes will rhythmically play the same as the shorter notes. They will not keep sustaining underneath. Audio example attached.

I thought I had midi for these bugs as well but can't seem to find them right now. I will post them if I manage to find them.


----------



## Trash Panda

I always assumed legato was limited to one octave as that’s a physical limitation when playing brass instruments. The fingering/slide position typically doesn’t change between octaves, just the emboucher tension.


----------



## morganwable

Jonathan Moray said:


> F12 doesn't work? I can't test it since I rarely get hanging notes with Infinite, but I use F12 for a couple of similar scenarios.
> 
> Off-topic, I'm surprised you got rid of CSB, even if IB can do what most of those can do, CSB is still a great library.


For the record, this is just libraries I deleted off my D: drive. I still have an external drive with everything on it, even stuff I never use. Cause you never know.

I usually get rid of the hanging notes by pressing space again twice in quick succession, which is only a minor pain. Hence the idea of scripting it somehow... but if it isn't possible, I'll live with waiting for an update that may fix it somehow.


----------



## Loïc D

I don’t use humanization.
But I’m pretty sure these hanging notes come from Chase Events (I use LPX) being active and probably some negative track delays too.


----------



## scoplunk

I think this is probably right. I have chase on and do have negative track delays on my Infinite library tracks. 

There was an earlier question about whether the hung notes are only during playback or continue when the transport is stopped. I'm not in front of the computer right now, but I feel like the hung notes occur during playback. If I start at certain measures, I get immediate hung notes in addition to the normal playback. Sometimes moving the playback start backwards or forwards by only a beat will eliminate the hung notes the next time playback starts. The whole thing is consistent. If I find a spot that starts without hung notes, it will stay that way and vice versa. I suspect that chase is somehow not seeing note off events or maybe the negative track delay is confusing logic about the location of the note off events? 

I've got a project deadline over the next few days, but I'll try to do a little more testing later in the week. Thanks for the ideas!


----------



## Gauss

morganwable said:


> Brainstorming here: I wonder if, at least for Reaper users_ (joiiin usss.....)_, some sort of custom script would stop the hanging notes situation. Here me out - remap the space bar to a custom action that basically tells Reaper to
> 1. stop playback (in the normal way that the space bar is supposed to)
> 2. wait 100ms
> 3. stop all notes again


It's not that easy way to do. In Reaper Space Bar is used for "Transport: Play/Stop". So the script would need to keep track if the playback is On or Off.
But maybe there is a little walkaround. You can create simple script with:
Actions -> Show Action List
Then Click: "New Action" and Add:
Send all-notes-off and all-sounds-off to all MIDI outputs/plug-ins
Transport: Play/stop
In the top right corner name your new script, something like: "Better Space Bar". And Click OK.
Now in the list find your new script and click Add in the field "Shortcut for selected actions".
Press Space Bar. You should have now Shortcut: Space. Click OK.
Now you will get warning that the Space is used by Transport: Play/Stop and if you wish to override.
Click Yes. You can now close the Action window and test the functionality.

You need to do this the other way round because it will not work as intended. When starting from a middle of a MIDI, those notes at which the playback cursor is located would not play, as the last action from the Space Bar would be "Send all-notes-off and all-sounds-off". I also think wait/delay is unnecessary. However if you are using different keys for Start and Stop you can do it exactly like you proposed.

Also remember this only affects the Space Bar shortcut. The Stop Button on the GUI will not change its behaviour by this script.

Anyway I would like to have small project file with the MIDI to replicate and test if the solution works or not.


----------



## lljfnord

Okay, stupid question time again. Is it possible to use the reverbs built into IB/IW as a sidechain or aux send destination? I'd like to send my other non-IB/IW instruments through them so that all my mix reverbs sound the same.

Something tells me that it's not possible, hence the "stupid question" prefix. Oh, well - I had to ask.


----------



## El Buhdai

lljfnord said:


> Okay, stupid question time again. Is it possible to use the reverbs built into IB/IW as a sidechain or aux send destination? I'd like to send my other non-IB/IW instruments through them so that all my mix reverbs sound the same.
> 
> Something tells me that it's not possible, hence the "stupid question" prefix. Oh, well - I had to ask.


I don't think it's a dumb question. It could actually be quite useful if it were possible, but yeah, I doubt it is. :(


----------



## synergy543

Is there a Dorico Expression Map for Infinite WW or Brass?


----------



## Supremo

morganwable said:


> ~195gb just freed up lol
> (SSS, SSW, CSB)
> 
> Brainstorming here: I wonder if, at least for Reaper users_ (joiiin usss.....)_, some sort of custom script would stop the hanging notes situation. Here me out - remap the space bar to a custom action that basically tells Reaper to
> 1. stop playback (in the normal way that the space bar is supposed to)
> 2. wait 100ms
> 3. stop all notes again
> 
> I bet that would work, at least as a band aid solution.
> Unfortunately I have no clue how to do this myself. Anybody got ideas?


I have quickly made the attached cycle action for Reaper but couldn't check it with Infinite libraries as yet. Can you test it and let me know if it helps to stop hanging notes?


----------



## Thomas Leisner

hayvel said:


> Hello to the infinite fan- and userbase. I am trying to decide on a small, portable composer rig and thought I might ask here for advice.
> 
> Since composing is not my primary source of income, my budget is somewhat limited. I am looking into a macbook m1 air or maybe a base m1 pro model with 16gb ram. 1-2 tb is max for storage depending on the model.
> 
> I am intrigued by the infinite series, not only but especially for the low storage and ram footprint. But the cpu demand seems to be high, and kontakt is not yet optimised for apple silicon, right?
> 
> So how do these instruments perform on apple silicon chips. Is it possible to go all in with IW/IB using all instruments in a divisi setup + some reasonably ram taxing strings, perc and other instruments depending on genre? Is the m1 sufficient 'as is' right now, should I go pro, screw the idea? Sorry if this has been desicussed earlier, I have not found definitive answers to this yet.
> 
> Any real world experience would be super helpful to know if I can 'go infinite' at all and what hardware to pick. Thanks in advance!


Hello there, 

I think I can contribute a little to the topic of Infinite Series and M1 now, after having made some more tests. I have a Macbook Air M1 here, with Logic, Divisimate and Infinite Woods and Brass. Using a "Space Navigator" controller to send three controllers at the same time. 

Having set all instruments to "mixed mic" I found the following "rules of thumb": Without tweaking anything (Buffer of 128) I can get about 10 Instruments to play at the same time, setting the biggest Buffer Size of 1024 allows me to play up to 20 Instruments at a time, and additionally telling Logic to use all 8 cores increases the number to 40 Instruments simultaneously. I could even get Logic to play back nearly 60 Instruments at once (all 58 Infinite instruments) by tweaking everything you can find in the settings, but not really stably. 

Some other observations I made: 1. Wether I play live or play back doesn't make a big difference on this system, presumably because of the limited number of cores. 2. When all cores are maxed out in Logic, Activity Monitor tells me they are only using around 60 Percent of CPU, which makes me think that using all 8 cores in Logic means using them all at the "efficiency core" level. 3. Setting the buffer to 1024 helps the machine tremendously, but surprisingly I nearly don't feel a difference while playing – the instruments still play smoothly and responsively. 4. RAM usage is surprisingly high (8GB+1GB swap file), probably because of the IR-Samples that all load in the background, but do not count in the "instrument size" display in Kontakt. 5. The only problem I have so far: some hanging notes, especially when the processor is working hard, and I can't tell wether these are coming from Divisimate, Logic or the Kontakt instruments. 

I hope this helps. 

Best, 

Thomas


----------



## Supremo

Supremo said:


> I have quickly made the attached cycle action for Reaper but couldn't check it with Infinite libraries as yet. Can you test it and let me know if it helps to stop hanging notes?


Ok, I have also done the same as a Reascript (attached). Just made a stress test by turning humanization ON for _all_ Infinite Brass patches playing simultaneously and checked if the script would kill all voices every time I click a play / stop button. The script seems to do its job really well on my system.


----------



## muziksculp

Does AV post audio clips of an upcoming library, i.e. (IS) before it is officially released ?


----------



## obey

Not to my knowledge, that's what makes it so exciting and alluring!


----------



## muziksculp

obey said:


> Not to my knowledge, that's what makes it so exciting and alluring!


I see. So, we won't hear any examples of the upcoming IS library until it is officially out. 

Thanks.


----------



## obey

I'm not expecting to, but I'd be happy to be wrong.


----------



## Jamus

Infinite patience, friends.


----------



## lljfnord

Jamus said:


> Infinite patience, friends.


At least it's not going to cost Infinite Bucks to purchase Infinite Strings when it does come out, especially for the upgrade from IB/IW.


----------



## I like music

While we dream ,don't forget that somewhere down the line Aaron was.thinking of doing non-orchestral non-western woodwinds. Wonder if that's still planned.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I will give Aaron money to make computer instruments as long as there is food in the fridge.


----------



## DivingInSpace

Russell Anderson said:


> I will give Aaron money to make computer instruments as long as there is food in the fridge.


I will send him the food i have in my fridge once i am out of money for his computer instruments


----------



## lljfnord

I am getting used to using my new TEControl USB MIDI Breath Controller with Infinite Brass at the moment (haven't progressed to using it with Infinite Woodwinds yet), and I could use some tips on how best to blow for control. My first attempts were laughable: I was tonguing staccato forte passages, missing the keypresses by a mile. On later attempts, I just blew a steady stream of air and let the key on/off signals handle the staccato forte notes. I'm still not sure if I'm doing it right.

What air techniques do you use with yours?


----------



## Ivan M.

lljfnord said:


> I am getting used to using my new TEControl USB MIDI Breath Controller with Infinite Brass at the moment (haven't progressed to using it with Infinite Woodwinds yet), and I could use some tips on how best to blow for control. My first attempts were laughable: I was tonguing staccato forte passages, missing the keypresses by a mile. On later attempts, I just blew a steady stream of air and let the key on/off signals handle the staccato forte notes. I'm still not sure if I'm doing it right.
> 
> What air techniques do you use with yours?


I record the notes first, then the breath controller. If it messes up staccato, I just manually edit midi cc. I’m programming more than performing. So no special technique here, just an iterative approach.


----------



## oceanic714

Dusted off the score and parts to An American Elegy by Frank Ticheli last night. I love how well these instruments handle quieter passages.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

oceanic714 said:


> Dusted off the score and parts to An American Elegy by Frank Ticheli last night. I love how well these instruments handle quieter passages.


Wow... This is amazing. Even the strings sound so expressive. This is one of my favourites so far


----------



## I like music

oceanic714 said:


> Dusted off the score and parts to An American Elegy by Frank Ticheli last night. I love how well these instruments handle quieter passages.


Very good!!!
Also, a new piece of music for me to listen to!

Strings mixed well and sound great too. What did you use?


----------



## oceanic714

I like music said:


> Very good!!!
> Also, a new piece of music for me to listen to!
> 
> Strings mixed well and sound great too. What did you use?


Thanks! 

I used CSS in this demo. I'm pretty happy with them, but there are some weird phasing issues with the strings when unison lines are played. I can't seem to figure out how to avoid the occaisional synthy sound.


----------



## I like music

oceanic714 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I used CSS in this demo. I'm pretty happy with them, but there are some weird phasing issues with the strings when unison lines are played. I can't seem to figure out how to avoid the occaisional synthy sound.


Very cool. I went with css and infinite too. Phasing when unison on vlns 1 and 2 playing same note?


----------



## oceanic714

I like music said:


> Very cool. I went with css and infinite too. Phasing when unison on vlns 1 and 2 playing same note?


Yep, and pretty much any other unison voices (two violas, two cellos, etc). It can be heard in the cellos of the opening few bars of that demo. I'll have to start a thread dedicated to that issue so I don't derail this one, hah.


----------



## lljfnord

Ivan M. said:


> I record the notes first, then the breath controller. If it messes up staccato, I just manually edit midi cc. I’m programming more than performing. So no special technique here, just an iterative approach.


Are you tonguing when the staccato notes scroll by? Or are you blowing a steady stream to keep CC1 open so the staccato notes' attacks won't get cut off? I'm trying the latter at the moment, since the former involves waaaay too much editing (Cakewalk by Bandlab settings: ppq=960).


----------



## scoplunk

It depends on what you're trying to do, but you may find it easier to work with short notes if you don't blow into the breath controller at all. Use velocity to change the volume and timbre of the short notes and change note duration for longer and shorter "shorts". I'm not good enough to do any quick tonguing, but I think the way IB is set up, it wouldn't help that much anyway. The sharp part of the attack seems to be controlled by velocity. The BC can definitely change the attack, since the CC1/velocity relationship is the mechanism IB uses to determine how the note starts, but I feel like its real strength is to shape everything that comes after the attack. 

Now, I can't wait for someone who is really good with a BC to show me how wrong I am...


----------



## Ivan M.

lljfnord said:


> Are you tonguing when the staccato notes scroll by? Or are you blowing a steady stream to keep CC1 open so the staccato notes' attacks won't get cut off? I'm trying the latter at the moment, since the former involves waaaay too much editing (Cakewalk by Bandlab settings: ppq=960).


I think I do both, tonguing if notes are marcato, and just writing a constant CC value if staccato. You just have to prepare for each note and start blowing a bit before it. However, playing like this is not always intuitive as short attacks are created not by breath (real instruments), but by the relationship between velocity and CC. I always have to edit afterwards.


----------



## mussnig

Ivan M. said:


> However, playing like this is not always intuitive as short attacks are created not by breath (real instruments), but by the relationship between velocity and CC. I always have to edit afterwards.


If I understand correctly, you can modify this behavior (to simulate more closely the behavior of real instruments) by setting attack range to 0, see here:








Infinite Brass Guide — Aaron Venture







www.aaronventure.com





Did you try this? Would be curious how intuitively this plays ...


----------



## Ivan M.

mussnig said:


> If I understand correctly, you can modify this behavior (to simulate more closely the behavior of real instruments) by setting attack range to 0, see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Brass Guide — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you try this? Would be curious how intuitively this plays ...


Oh, that's excellent, wasn't aware of it (I read manuals only when I get stuck xD), I'll try it out. 
However, I'll probably stick to the default behaviour because that's easier to program with the mouse, since I use it way more than breath ctrl. Thanks.


----------



## aaronventure

Ivan M. said:


> Oh, that's excellent, wasn't aware of it (I read manuals only when I get stuck xD), I'll try it out.
> However, I'll probably stick to the default behaviour because that's easier to program with the mouse, since I use it way more than breath ctrl. Thanks.


You can learn the Attack Range to both CC1 and CC2, and go into the MIDI Automation tab to set the upper and lower limits for that control to 100% both for CC1, and 0% (or whatever you use) for CC2. That way when you touch CC1 (modwheel), it goes to 100% (or whatever you set it to), and when you touch CC2, it goes to what you set as a limit there.

You can pretty much set up the entire patch this way, to reconfigure itself on the fly based on whether you're using the modwheel or a breath controller (if your BC is on a different CC#). The downside is that you are stuck with these values that you set up, since just touching CC1 will make them snap to that value, and changing the "locked"/limited value means going into the automation tab, finding the control and the corresponding controller, and adjusting both limits. A bit of an annoyance to set up initially, but can make for some pretty interesting custom setups.


----------



## ashleyv

Hello from Montreal,

Hi everyone my name is Ashley i'm a long time user in the forum but i work in the shy corporation company so i do not post or comment often,today i want to join the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds family and share some orchestral mockups that i did from Star Wars" The Force Awaken" (Scherzo For X-Wings) and Back to The Future (Main Theme) using Infinite Brass and Woodwinds i love both Brass and Woodwinds i can't wait for Infinite Strings cheers !!!


----------



## Juulu

ashleyv said:


> Hello from Montreal,
> 
> Hi everyone my name is Ashley i'm a long time user in the forum but i work in the shy corporation company so i do not post or comment often,today i want to join the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds family and share some orchestral mockups that i did from Star Wars" The Force Awaken" (Scherzo For X-Wings) and Back to The Future (Main Theme) using Infinite Brass and Woodwinds i love both Brass and Woodwinds i can't wait for Infinite Strings cheers !!!



Wow that was pretty great. Did you write everything in by hand or use notation? I'm curious if you'd be willing to share the midi.


----------



## aaronventure

ashleyv said:


> Hello from Montreal,
> 
> Hi everyone my name is Ashley i'm a long time user in the forum but i work in the shy corporation company so i do not post or comment often,today i want to join the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds family and share some orchestral mockups that i did from Star Wars" The Force Awaken" (Scherzo For X-Wings) and Back to The Future (Main Theme) using Infinite Brass and Woodwinds i love both Brass and Woodwinds i can't wait for Infinite Strings cheers !!!



Cool stuff! This sounds like notation MIDI playback (pretty rigid), so now you gotta phrase the lines using CC1


----------



## Trash Panda

Early draft of the first two movements of an FF7 Remake inspired medley of Let the Battle Begin using IB, IW and TSS.

@aaronventure any tips for getting better organic braam-like sounds?

View attachment FF7R - Let The Battles Begin Medley (Draft).mp3


----------



## ashleyv

Juulu said:


> Wow that was pretty great. Did you write everything in by hand or use notation? I'm curious if you'd be willing to share the midi.


Thanks for the nice comment, i'm a piano\keyboard player i played everything myself by hand and it took me way too long so unfortunately i will not be able to share the midi file sorry  i learned a lot doing it from the pieces and from the library , my first mistake was to quantize everything then i used the tempo from the audio track that messed everything i will fix it a make it better cheers.


----------



## aaronventure

Alright, these past few months I've gotten a few more "I'm getting stuck notes in Logic" reports than normal. I've seen another one or two a few pages back.

I'm not a Logic user (or a Mac user, for that matter), so I can't look into it immediately, and my initial suggestion was to check whether there's an option that does "Send all notes off on playback stop" like in Reaper.

My gut tells me that it's got something to do with one of Logic's recent updates, since these additional recent reports are only concerning Logic.

I will be looking into this and will hopefully be able to resolve it in the next update cycle. Until then, here's a band-aid.









Panic - All Notes Off Multiscript — Aaron Venture







www.aaronventure.com


----------



## ashleyv

aaronventure said:


> Cool stuff! This sounds like notation MIDI playback (pretty rigid), so now you gotta phrase the lines using CC1


 Thanks for saying that i appreciated, i used Dynamics mapping in Cubase for back to the future but some part i used the Mod Wheel and for Scherzo for x-wings i had to put CC1 almost up do you suggest me to re enter some CC1 with the Mod wheel or manually on long notes? because if i let the CC1 around 65 or less i'm unable to play short notes properly ,i'm still learning the library i added -30 as negative track delay as you suggested and quantize most of the short notes should i remove the negative delay and no quantize? thank you.


----------



## aaronventure

ashleyv said:


> Thanks for saying that i appreciated, i used Dynamics mapping in Cubase for back to the future but some part i used the Mod Wheel and for Scherzo for x-wings i had to put CC1 almost up do you suggest me to re enter some CC1 with the Mod wheel or manually on long notes? because if i let the CC1 around 65 or less i'm unable to play short notes properly ,i'm still learning the library i added -30 as negative track delay as you suggested and quantize most of the short notes should i remove the negative delay and no quantize? thank you.


It's definitely overall too harsh in the Scherzo. You're gonna blow the lungs and the lips off your brass players 

It sounds like you're just adjusting CC1 as a dynamic marking in a score, setting it and leaving it be. In case of Infinite Brass and Woodwinds, think of CC1/modwheel as "breath amount". Brass players are rarely holding a note with perfectly flat dynamics (especially not when it's loud). It's usually either moving up (going louder) or down (going quieter). I would suggest downloading the MIDI files for some of the demos and taking a look at the brass phrasing there. Pay attention how CC1 is used to phrase lines, and try changing it just so you can hear what a difference it makes. Now try the notice the dynamics in the phrasing in the original recording, and compare it to your production.

Here's an old, but still relevant video about the subject:


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> @aaronventure any tips for getting better organic braam-like sounds?


Dip out of the 127 value ASAP. Just barely touch it, then dip below. Sure, stay a bit longer around 121-125, but the very ceiling you should just barely push into. The moments where exactly in the phrase you push into it should differ instrument to instrument. But if you then dip out reasonably fast (for a marcato note), you'll get a nice humanized feel across the section as they hit the ceiling at different times. 

Not all of them have to hit it, though, you can have some instruments top out at 125 or 123. Not odd at all to have the principal player always pushing a bit harder.


----------



## mussnig

aaronventure said:


> Alright, these past few months I've gotten a few more "I'm getting stuck notes in Logic" reports than normal. I've seen another one or two a few pages back.
> 
> I'm not a Logic user (or a Mac user, for that matter), so I can't look into it immediately, and my initial suggestion was to check whether there's an option that does "Send all notes off on playback stop" like in Reaper.
> 
> My gut tells me that it's got something to do with one of Logic's recent updates, since these additional recent reports are only concerning Logic.
> 
> I will be looking into this and will hopefully be able to resolve it in the next update cycle. Until then, here's a band-aid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Panic - All Notes Off Multiscript — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com


Just wanted to report that I am currently working on a piece in Studio One 5 on Windows 10 and I sometimes also get stuck notes - so I don't think it's purely a Logic problem.

I don't want to complain, though - I don't find it too anoying and I enjoy the libraries very much.


----------



## DANIELE

I have another question for @aaronventure, do you recommend shaping also the pitch when you use your instruments? I tried in a recent track I wrote but maybe I exagerated it a little bit since it is too much present. Do you mind to share a tip regarding pitch?

Thank you.


----------



## reids

I also sometimes get stuck notes as well for Infinite brass/winds. For me, it happens when I'm playing fast repeated notes like staccatissimo. Sometimes the notes will just get stuck and ring out. I hope major updates to the brass and woodwinds are coming very soon.


----------



## mussnig

DANIELE said:


> I have another question for @aaronventure, do you recommend shaping also the pitch when you use your instruments? I tried in a recent track I wrote but maybe I exagerated it a little bit since it is too much present. Do you mind to share a tip regarding pitch?
> 
> Thank you.


Since you are obviously one of the most proficient users of IB/IW around here (at least that's my impression), I would be curious to hear your impressions/opinions on this.

Whenever I used pitch, then (apart from some special effects), I was always trying to mimic what essentially "Pitch Accuracy" is doing - so now, I am only using that one.


----------



## Supremo

aaronventure said:


> Not all of them have to hit it, though, you can have some instruments top out at 125 or 123. Not odd at all to have the principal player always pushing a bit harder.


I use a nice "Midi CC Mapper X" script as an input fx on Reaper for that purpose. I set different maximum Velocity levels and velocity curves on different instruments to have that 'humanization' effect without having to draw each one separately by hand.


----------



## Denkii

Trash Panda said:


> Early draft of the first two movements of an FF7 Remake inspired medley of Let the Battle Begin using IB, IW and TSS.
> 
> @aaronventure any tips for getting better organic braam-like sounds?
> 
> View attachment FF7R - Let The Battles Begin Medley (Draft).mp3


Please share updates on this.
Love it!


----------



## Soundbed

Thomas Leisner said:


> Hello there,
> 
> I think I can contribute a little to the topic of Infinite Series and M1 now, after having made some more tests. I have a Macbook Air M1 here, with Logic, Divisimate and Infinite Woods and Brass. Using a "Space Navigator" controller to send three controllers at the same time.
> 
> Having set all instruments to "mixed mic" I found the following "rules of thumb": Without tweaking anything (Buffer of 128) I can get about 10 Instruments to play at the same time, setting the biggest Buffer Size of 1024 allows me to play up to 20 Instruments at a time, and additionally telling Logic to use all 8 cores increases the number to 40 Instruments simultaneously. I could even get Logic to play back nearly 60 Instruments at once (all 58 Infinite instruments) by tweaking everything you can find in the settings, but not really stably.
> 
> Some other observations I made: 1. Wether I play live or play back doesn't make a big difference on this system, presumably because of the limited number of cores. 2. When all cores are maxed out in Logic, Activity Monitor tells me they are only using around 60 Percent of CPU, which makes me think that using all 8 cores in Logic means using them all at the "efficiency core" level. 3. Setting the buffer to 1024 helps the machine tremendously, but surprisingly I nearly don't feel a difference while playing – the instruments still play smoothly and responsively. 4. RAM usage is surprisingly high (8GB+1GB swap file), probably because of the IR-Samples that all load in the background, but do not count in the "instrument size" display in Kontakt. 5. The only problem I have so far: some hanging notes, especially when the processor is working hard, and I can't tell wether these are coming from Divisimate, Logic or the Kontakt instruments.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Thomas


Have you tried changing Kontakt preload buffer setting? I found that allowed many more instruments in my M1 testing. I brought it down to 18kB.


----------



## DANIELE

mussnig said:


> Since you are obviously one of the most proficient users of IB/IW around here (at least that's my impression), I would be curious to hear your impressions/opinions on this.
> 
> Whenever I used pitch, then (apart from some special effects), I was always trying to mimic what essentially "Pitch Accuracy" is doing - so now, I am only using that one.


Do you mean "Attack Accuracy"?

If you mean that then it should mimick inaccuracy on the attack of every new note, but there could be some pitch variation even on the sustained notes, especially longer ones. I'm not a brass player but as far as I know they use a mixture of mouth intonation and valves (in the instruments with valves). In a trombone the thing is different and there could be more pitch variations even during a sustained note but I have to analyze the pitch of a real instrument to be sure.


----------



## Hans-Peter

aaronventure said:


> Alright, these past few months I've gotten a few more "I'm getting stuck notes in Logic" reports than normal. I've seen another one or two a few pages back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Panic - All Notes Off Multiscript — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com


Unfortunately, stuck notes happen to me in Logic as much as in Cubase Pro 11. Everything is hosted in a VEP server. Perhaps somehow related to the handling of articulation maps/expression maps? Just weird that it happens in both (MacOS 10.15.7; latest Kontakt). 

Edit: True, this happens especially with the Woodwinds. Otherwise, the AV instruments are my favourite!


----------



## Russell Anderson

Specifically in the woodwinds, I get hanging notes in FL Studio 20.9 more than half the time I stop playback even if only three voices are playing. Not nearly so much of a problem with the brass.

Fortunately for me… I don’t really care about hanging notes. Maybe over time they will ebb at my patience but for the time being, I am just immensely satisfied with the bundle. Even if it takes years to address I’d rather deal with hanging notes than bad transitions or sample timings. I look forward to being able to share some music!


----------



## scoplunk

aaronventure said:


> Alright, these past few months I've gotten a few more "I'm getting stuck notes in Logic" reports than normal. I've seen another one or two a few pages back.
> 
> I'm not a Logic user (or a Mac user, for that matter), so I can't look into it immediately, and my initial suggestion was to check whether there's an option that does "Send all notes off on playback stop" like in Reaper.
> 
> My gut tells me that it's got something to do with one of Logic's recent updates, since these additional recent reports are only concerning Logic.
> 
> I will be looking into this and will hopefully be able to resolve it in the next update cycle. Until then, here's a band-aid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Panic - All Notes Off Multiscript — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com


I finally got a minute to look into this a little closer. Here's what I learned:

1) The problem probably isn't due to the latest updates in Logic. I'm still on 10.6.3 on both my computers and the hanging notes occur on both of them. The current Logic version is 10.7.2, so I'm pretty far behind.

2) Having a negative track delay isn't causing this. When I find a location where the notes hang, they hang when I have the negative track delay set to -30 and when I set the delay to 0. There's no change.

3) Having a note off script won't completely solve the problem, because the notes will also hang while the transport is running. If I get hung notes when I start the transport at bar 10, those hung notes will ring out even while the song is playing, so there's no way to send an all notes off. 

4) The problem is related to the chase function. If chase if off, the hung notes go away. This isn't a great solution, though, because that means that any notes that have a note on before the point where playback starts won't play at all, so a long passage over a sustaining note will be missing the sustaining note unless I start playback before that note is first played.

5) The hung notes seem to occur if I start at a point where two notes are butting up against one another. I'm looking at a clarinet part now and I've got a half note D4 that ends right at the end of bar 172. An E4 begins exactly at the beginning of bar 173. There's no real overlap and it isn't making a legato transition (I checked by reducing the velocity of the E4 and wound up with a very slow attack), but when I start playback at bar 173, I hear a split second of E4, followed by D4. If I stop the transport, D4 continues to play. But, even when I don't stop the transport, that D4 continues to play until the clarinet finally has another part. If I slightly shorten the D4 length so that it ends a little before bar 173, the problem goes away. But, this isn't a useful solution for any line where the transition is meant to be legato, since shortening the first note will ruin the legato transition. Just to check, I lengthened the D4 to make sure the transition between D4 and E4 was legato and the hung note behavior was the same as I described above. 

That's what I've got, so far. Hope it helps...


----------



## Thomas Leisner

Soundbed said:


> Have you tried changing Kontakt preload buffer setting? I found that allowed many more instruments in my M1 testing. I brought it down to 18kB.


I'm glad you asked, because yes, I had watched your tests and I had tried this, without any effect on RAM usage. But before replying I tested it again with very pleasing results: While surprisingly it does not have any effect on the amount of RAM used, it does affect the performance of the instruments! While I had problems to play back 58 instruments at once before, 70 were no problem now.  

In my case lowering the preload buffer (all the way down to 6 kB) directly reduces the indicated size of instruments in Kontakt from very small (20 to 30 MB) to crazy small (2 to 8 MB), Activity Monitor indicates a load of 100 to 200 MB of RAM on the system side, regardless of my settings in Kontakt. 

While this had bothered me before, I don't care about it now any more, as it seems that RAM is a flexible thing nowadays. Loading 58 instruments took about 7 GB of RAM. Doubling them up expectedly expanded to about 14 GB, and performed without any issues – on a 8 GB system! "Memory Pressure" increased only slightly in the medium range (orange). 

So I am very happy now with the performance of my little machine. Everything seems to be well prepared for Infinite Strings and Infinite Percussion to come.  I think they can be loaded up all together and will perform just fine, on the smallest modern Mac Laptop available right now!


----------



## Ivan M.

aaronventure said:


> Alright, these past few months I've gotten a few more "I'm getting stuck notes in Logic" reports than normal. I've seen another one or two a few pages back.
> 
> I'm not a Logic user (or a Mac user, for that matter), so I can't look into it immediately, and my initial suggestion was to check whether there's an option that does "Send all notes off on playback stop" like in Reaper.
> 
> My gut tells me that it's got something to do with one of Logic's recent updates, since these additional recent reports are only concerning Logic.
> 
> I will be looking into this and will hopefully be able to resolve it in the next update cycle. Until then, here's a band-aid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Panic - All Notes Off Multiscript — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com


It happens on playback start. Seek disabled. Changing start position helps. (I don’t remember this happening in Reaper even with seek enabled, but not sure). You’ll probably have to buy a mac ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Terry93D

Here's the EQ that I'm using to get a more ear-pleasing sound out of the oboes. I've attached a quick demo of the sounds - minimal CC1 riding in either, just enough to illustrate the point.

What I did was grab the oboe from the (by now quite old) Siedlaczek Advanced Orchestra and use SlickEQ's 'Smart Ops' to match the two. This carved out a lot of the mid-range, so I dialed that back in. A gentle exciter to add ~1 db to the highs completes it. Might not be to everybody's taste, but it's certainly to mine.


----------



## Saxer

My guess for the hanging note is: too close together fired note on and note off events of the same note (extreme short notes) that can't be handled in time by Kontakt.

When the song position line is at the beginning of a bar and in Logic (or other DAWs) there are some tracks with a negative delay the song starts playing at the cursor position minus the negative track delay. 
For example: bar 17 minus 40ms.
If there are notes playing until the end of the previous region/clip they will be triggered as chased events and immediately stopped at the end of the clip. Example: clip from bar 16 to 17 has a long note. Playing from bar 17 starts 40ms before the end of the clip at bar 16 and after 40ms this note will be stopped again - and there's probably a new note in the beginning of bar 17. Add the current CCs that are going on: Too much information to handle.

By the way: when Berlin Strings came out (first Kontakt version) they had the same problem too. So it's not an Infinite problem alone. Orchestraltools got rid of the hanging notes in their first update. Maybe someone could just ask them how they did it.


----------



## shawnsingh

Terry93D said:


> Here's the EQ that I'm using to get a more ear-pleasing sound out of the oboes. I've attached a quick demo of the sounds - minimal CC1 riding in either, just enough to illustrate the point.
> 
> What I did was grab the oboe from the (by now quite old) Siedlaczek Advanced Orchestra and use SlickEQ's 'Smart Ops' to match the two. This carved out a lot of the mid-range, so I dialed that back in. A gentle exciter to add ~1 db to the highs completes it. Might not be to everybody's taste, but it's certainly to mine.


for me personally, the less solid midrange is actually a nice cue about the distance and central location on stage (i.e. effectively increased distance of how reflected sound reaches the mics, too). I feel that the original sounds more natural to me, and the "fuller" version sounds kind of like a "proximity effect" of a microphone being too close.

In various orchestral recordings that I tried to observe, I feel that very often individual instruments actually sound very thin and weak. It's the orchestration and performance skill that then makes all these distant thin-sounding instruments become a collective powerhouse. Of course, worth acknowledging that my preference partly comes from classical recordings and older adventure film sensibility - not the modern-day film score sensibility.


----------



## bFooz

Terry93D said:


> Here's the EQ that I'm using to get a more ear-pleasing sound out of the oboes. I've attached a quick demo of the sounds - minimal CC1 riding in either, just enough to illustrate the point.
> 
> What I did was grab the oboe from the (by now quite old) Siedlaczek Advanced Orchestra and use SlickEQ's 'Smart Ops' to match the two. This carved out a lot of the mid-range, so I dialed that back in. A gentle exciter to add ~1 db to the highs completes it. Might not be to everybody's taste, but it's certainly to mine.


Try eq like this. There is a resonance at cca 1500Hz that really bites into ear. With the eq cut it sounds smoother but may be percieved as a lack of character. If you want more of that character back, just dial the cut back a bit. The boost is for body/fundamental, there is nothing bellow that area.

I actually wonder how people perceive it - is it smooth or without character?


----------



## Russell Anderson

biomuse said:


> Good points - From AV's video, I notice there's a slider that lets you reduce dynamic range such that timbre but not level changes with modwheel/breath/etc input. This struck me as a kind of "solo mode switch," for points where the instrument is front and center and you need to be free to modulate more without changing level. Does using it help with this?


returning to this comment, yes, extremely. In fact this has pretty much changed the sound of this library entirely for me and made it almost twice as good as it was before. The higher dynamic levels of Infinite series instruments are absolutely at the high dynamics, beyond where you want to be most of the time. I actually like reducing dynamic range almost to _zero_ and controlling expression, dynamics, vibrato depth and rate all manually for anything exposed, and doing this allows both the oboe and flute to sound so, so much more real and expressive. I’m actually amazed at how good this sounds.

My only criticism at this point is the slur sound of the oboe. The pitch of oboes pretty much never slides, but there’s a bit of a slide in oboe’s legato transitions. If those could be shortened to an almost clicky transition, it would be 85% of a real, professional oboist. Already it sounds incredible. I’ll see if I can post something soon to demonstrate just how fantastic this sounds with the manual dynamic range control used as a “timbre” knob.


----------



## Mikro93

Russell Anderson said:


> returning to this comment, yes, extremely. In fact this has pretty much changed the sound of this library entirely for me and made it almost twice as good as it was before. The higher dynamic levels of Infinite series instruments are absolutely at the high dynamics, beyond where you want to be most of the time. I actually like reducing dynamic range almost to _zero_ and controlling expression, dynamics, vibrato depth and rate all manually for anything exposed, and doing this allows both the oboe and flute to sound so, so much more real and expressive. I’m actually amazed at how good this sounds.
> 
> My only criticism at this point is the slur sound of the oboe. The pitch of oboes pretty much never slides, but there’s a bit of a slide in oboe’s legato transitions. If those could be shortened to an almost clicky transition, it would be 85% of a real, professional oboist. Already it sounds incredible. I’ll see if I can post something soon to demonstrate just how fantastic this sounds with the manual dynamic range control used as a “timbre” knob.


For the woodwinds legato transition, you can try to disconnect the notes and adjust velocities. It may or may not work, depending on the context


----------



## Russell Anderson

Mikro93 said:


> For the woodwinds legato transition, you can try to disconnect the notes and adjust velocities. It may or may not work, depending on the context


I was experimenting with it last night while playing but it would definitely take either a lot of practice or some midi managing like you say  But it could turn some good results!


----------



## Ivan M.

Saxer said:


> My guess for the hanging note is: too close together fired note on and note off events


Yes, I also noticed it happens when the (Logic) playback starts exactly from where a note ends


----------



## Russell Anderson

I probably shouldn't post this here because there is so much midi massaging I could do to tame the weird live improvised notes and modulation, but I wanted to get something out quick that could sort of show you the timbre thing I was talking about because if I didn't post something tonight, I wouldn't post anything for a month. Everything was played in live voice by voice and I didn't really know what I was going to play, I planned nothing including the overdubbed voices so it's kind of random, but it looks like it's a little piece about raised eyebrows at night with pizzicato bass and suddenly bassoon and bass clarinet in addition to the aforementioned flute and oboe. I admit I did fix a wrong note and change 2 velocities, but yeah, you could do a lot better than this 5-10 minute random woodwind improv.

edit, also there's a good amount of surging here in the dynamics... you shouldn't do that either, but... I need practice :D *edit 2 I normalized it and it's probably clipping but whatever


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

is that infinite at the beginning of the video?


----------



## Juulu

Just realized there might be more people in the future who happen across this thread that are still on the fence about AV brass like I was. There are never enough demo's for any library so I'll show a little peak at a piece I'm working on, one file in context and the other with solely the brass.
View attachment Calamity.mp3

View attachment Calamity Brass.mp3

All in all, I feel like the horns and the trumpets really shine in this library. The trombones can be really good too. You just have to make sure you stay away from the upper end of the modwheel or else they'll sound more "synthy". I haven't found a way around this yet but I am satisfied with them. I may post more of some iconic trumpet lines later to show off the library a bit more.


----------



## Jamus

Juulu said:


> Just realized there might be more people in the future who happen across this thread that are still on the fence about AV brass like I was. There are never enough demo's for any library so I'll show a little peak at a piece I'm working on, one file in context and the other with solely the brass.
> View attachment Calamity.mp3
> 
> View attachment Calamity Brass.mp3
> 
> All in all, I feel like the horns and the trumpets really shine in this library. The trombones can be really good too. You just have to make sure you stay away from the upper end of the modwheel or else they'll sound more "synthy". I haven't found a way around this yet but I am satisfied with them. I may post more of some iconic trumpet lines later to show off the library a bit more.


My amateur advice is that the 100-127 range is something you only dip into for very short amounts of time. For example staccato with velocity above 100 and dynamics at 100 mimics what would be the initial transient of blasting air but the sustain of a reasonable amount of breath in which the brass player doesn't go pink in the face and fall off the stage 😂

I came to this conclusion by analysing the dynamic range of Berlin Brass. Although not as "epic" as competitors I notice in BB that top end break up only appears for a short time after initial attack in expressive and marcato patches. I also noticed that the highest dynamic layers of sustains are underwhelming in comparison to the staccatos, implying that short burst FFF is feasible but sustained FFF is not.


----------



## Juulu

Jamus said:


> My amateur advice is that the 100-127 range is something you only dip into for very short amounts of time. For example staccato with velocity above 100 and dynamics at 100 mimics what would be the initial transient of blasting air but the sustain of a reasonable amount of breath in which the brass player doesn't go pink in the face and fall off the stage 😂
> 
> I came to this conclusion by analysing the dynamic range of Berlin Brass. Although not as "epic" as competitors I notice in BB that top end break up only appears for a short time after initial attack in expressive and marcato patches. I also noticed that the highest dynamic layers of sustains are underwhelming in comparison to the staccatos, implying that short burst FFF is feasible but sustained FFF is not.


100% this. I've gotten in the habit of immediately dropping my modwheel after starting a note, similar to a Marcato, and it gives me very good results


----------



## aaronventure

Jamus said:


> My amateur advice is that the 100-127 range is something you only dip into for very short amounts of time. For example staccato with velocity above 100 and dynamics at 100 mimics what would be the initial transient of blasting air but the sustain of a reasonable amount of breath in which the brass player doesn't go pink in the face and fall off the stage 😂
> 
> I came to this conclusion by analysing the dynamic range of Berlin Brass. Although not as "epic" as competitors I notice in BB that top end break up only appears for a short time after initial attack in expressive and marcato patches. I also noticed that the highest dynamic layers of sustains are underwhelming in comparison to the staccatos, implying that short burst FFF is feasible but sustained FFF is not.


This is pretty much spot on. 

The first thing anyone should do after getting Infinite is to pick a recording they like that they can get a score for, and try to replicate the performance as closely as possible. Not the mix, but the performance. Take the hours to do it properly, try out all the possible combinations of CC1 and velocity, get a feel for how vibrato impacts the sound. 

Then check the demo MIDI files as well. 

In the few afternoons it'll take you to do this properly the first time, you'll learn pretty much all you need to know about using Infinite.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I'm doing something wrong. Finally am getting around to separating out the woodwind instrument outputs in kontakt in my_ first ever_ template, and lo and behold none of the mics are actually outputting, I'm just getting the raw recordings. Whoa!

If I don't use the below command it doesn't appear to be an issue, and I'm also able to use the mix mics when the below feature is used, so evidently my Kontakt is only outputting one voice per channel when it should be outputting the close, tree and far mics in that one channel. Has anyone else encountered this?


----------



## lljfnord

aaronventure said:


> This is pretty much spot on.


So, what you're implying is that an initial note's attack in the 100-127 range would be good, but the note's sustain should fall off toward the < 100 range for a better sound, correct? (Sorry, I'm not trying to skip the steps you suggest - I just don't have access to scores at this point in time.)


----------



## ModalRealist

lljfnord said:


> So, what you're implying is that an initial note's attack in the 100-127 range would be good, but the note's sustain should fall off toward the < 100 range for a better sound, correct? (Sorry, I'm not trying to skip the steps you suggest - I just don't have access to scores at this point in time.)


Yep, that's what Aaron's saying.

When playing a brass instrument, it's basically impossible to blow at your maximum possible pressure for very long at all (try it yourself, can you blow harder if you blow all the air out of your lungs really quickly? - there's no way to blow at your maximum possible pressure for a longer period, that's just physics!). You may actually have noticed in, e.g., Spitfire promotional materials for their brass libraries, they sometimes describe so-called "lip bleed" sessions and/or how low-brass fortissimo longs only have a very short loop zone, because it's literally physically impossible for even the best players in the world to hold a note at that dynamic for longer than a second or two.

So in practice, how are brass players playing fortissimo etc.? Well, the answer is that we're modulating our pressure a lot over the course of the note, in such a way as to impress on your listening ear the tone we wish to impart (see the difference between angry brassy fortissimo, and noble warm fortissimo, and so on).

Why can't someone (Aaron or I or another friendly brass musician) describe to you in words what shapes of modulation curves to make to get different effects? Well, because we don't _know_ them in a theoretical, linguistically articulable way. It's all part of the _praxis_ of playing our instrument, the same way a really good driver can just work the clutch and accelerator smooth and fast for whatever desired effect.

The suggestion to pick recorded _performances of pieces you like_ and try to 'play along' with them/recreate the performance in Infinite is a really good one on Aaron's part. As it will help to try and get you going on the road to having a bit of _praxis_!

Oh, and if you're in any doubt, check out what happens if you take IB (or Sample Modeling), program in a triplet of fast repeated staccatos, and _lower_ the velocity whilst keeping the mod wheel high. At a certain _quite low _velocity (compared to modwheel/dynamics) you'll get a much more pleasing, much more realistic feeling of double-tonguing than if you have the velocity high. Because when you double-tongue, the movement you make pretty much ensures that there's a smooth - albeit very fast - envelope between the notes. High velocities give more the impression of stopped tonguing (where the airflow has been stopped, and then very suddenly and precisely released). The irony is that brass players are obviously _trying_ to move towards that latter, sharper sound when they double-tongue. But the interaction between physical reality/limitations and the _attempt_ is what creates the distinctive and pleasant sound! In much the same way that a 20-piece violin section's 16th-note runs blurring into a pleasing, riotous rise and fall is a product of the fact that they can't all play in perfect, time-synced unison with each other.


----------



## oceanic714

I found a workaround for those wanting to write non-stop FFF brass...

Just throw in 24 trumpets, 16 horns, 24 trombones and 16 tubas and you should be fine.


----------



## Ivan M.

oceanic714 said:


> I found a workaround for those wanting to write non-stop FFF brass...
> 
> Just throw in 24 trumpets, 16 horns, 24 trombones and 16 tubas and you should be fine.



Totally realistic! XD


----------



## lljfnord

oceanic714 said:


> I found a workaround for those wanting to write non-stop FFF brass...
> 
> Just throw in 24 trumpets, 16 horns, 24 trombones and 16 tubas and you should be fine.


Triple blastissimo, that is. Besides, I think you left out the baritones and the euphoniums.


----------



## I like music

ModalRealist said:


> Yep, that's what Aaron's saying.
> 
> When playing a brass instrument, it's basically impossible to blow at your maximum possible pressure for very long at all (try it yourself, can you blow harder if you blow all the air out of your lungs really quickly? - there's no way to blow at your maximum possible pressure for a longer period, that's just physics!). You may actually have noticed in, e.g., Spitfire promotional materials for their brass libraries, they sometimes describe so-called "lip bleed" sessions and/or how low-brass fortissimo longs only have a very short loop zone, because it's literally physically impossible for even the best players in the world to hold a note at that dynamic for longer than a second or two.
> 
> So in practice, how are brass players playing fortissimo etc.? Well, the answer is that we're modulating our pressure a lot over the course of the note, in such a way as to impress on your listening ear the tone we wish to impart (see the difference between angry brassy fortissimo, and noble warm fortissimo, and so on).
> 
> Why can't someone (Aaron or I or another friendly brass musician) describe to you in words what shapes of modulation curves to make to get different effects? Well, because we don't _know_ them in a theoretical, linguistically articulable way. It's all part of the _praxis_ of playing our instrument, the same way a really good driver can just work the clutch and accelerator smooth and fast for whatever desired effect.
> 
> The suggestion to pick recorded _performances of pieces you like_ and try to 'play along' with them/recreate the performance in Infinite is a really good one on Aaron's part. As it will help to try and get you going on the road to having a bit of _praxis_!
> 
> Oh, and if you're in any doubt, check out what happens if you take IB (or Sample Modeling), program in a triplet of fast repeated staccatos, and _lower_ the velocity whilst keeping the mod wheel high. At a certain _quite low _velocity (compared to modwheel/dynamics) you'll get a much more pleasing, much more realistic feeling of double-tonguing than if you have the velocity high. Because when you double-tongue, the movement you make pretty much ensures that there's a smooth - albeit very fast - envelope between the notes. High velocities give more the impression of stopped tonguing (where the airflow has been stopped, and then very suddenly and precisely released). The irony is that brass players are obviously _trying_ to move towards that latter, sharper sound when they double-tongue. But the interaction between physical reality/limitations and the _attempt_ is what creates the distinctive and pleasant sound! In much the same way that a 20-piece violin section's 16th-note runs blurring into a pleasing, riotous rise and fall is a product of the fact that they can't all play in perfect, time-synced unison with each other.


I don't know how much music you write, but you should certainly write more ABOUT music! Great read, that.


----------



## Robert_G

Anything new on when the strings might be out?


----------



## mussnig

Robert_G said:


> Anything new on when the strings might be out?


----------



## doctoremmet

Robert_G said:


> Anything new on when the strings might be out?


Last pizzabox count was still way too low to indicate strings seeing a release any time soon…


----------



## decredis

doctoremmet said:


> Last pizzabox count was still way too low to indicate strings seeing a release any time soon…


Not even a Bartok pizzabox. Disappointing tbh.


----------



## aaronventure

lljfnord said:


> So, what you're implying is that an initial note's attack in the 100-127 range would be good, but the note's sustain should fall off toward the < 100 range for a better sound, correct? (Sorry, I'm not trying to skip the steps you suggest - I just don't have access to scores at this point in time.)


Depends on the actual line. Lyrical lines in lower octaves of the instrument's range? Playing that loud would really kill the player.

Marcato lines? Sure, they will go into that range, but drop quickly.

As @ModalRealist said, it's hard to put it into words exactly, without pointing to specific passages in musical pieces, and we can easily do hundreds of these. Hence the suggestion to go and perform pieces and get the performance to match the recording as closely as possible. www.imslp.org is chock full of free scores.

I can't quite say that sustained lines should always be below the very high CC1 range, because there are exceptions. Take a listen to this example:



You'd think the way to perform this would be to just set CC to 127 and be done with it. But if you listen closely, you can hear the note is a bit stronger on the attack, dips down a bit, and then increases in volume ever so slightly towards the end. So if this one were to start at 127, it would dip down to 120-122, before ending at 125. Like very, very tiny _fp <._ These miniscule CC1 movements won't do much when it comes to conventional libraries, but they _do matter_ in Infinite, because what you're perceiving isn't a crossfade between two layers, but instead a single voice dying down in dynamics, due to the layers being perfectly phase aligned.

Now, when it comes to doing this line with a trumpet ensemble, there are multiple way to approach this. You can have all the trumpets doing the same kind of movement, or you can have just two doing it, while the other two don't push so high to 127, but instead play the line at 122-120 throughout. So many ways you can impact the sound of the overall line depending on how you perform the other 3 trumpets.


----------



## aaronventure

Juulu said:


> I haven't found a way around this yet but I am satisfied with them


You can map a different slider to the Dynamics control, then limit it to a different max limit in the MIDI Automation tab inside Kontakt. That way it'll only go as high as you allow it to go.

Alternatively, slap on some multiband compression on the trombones and compress just the very high end.









E.g. this setup will only start to kick in when the Dynamics/CC1 goes above ~95 or so.


----------



## Juulu

aaronventure said:


> You can map a different slider to the Dynamics control, then limit it to a different max limit in the MIDI Automation tab inside Kontakt. That way it'll only go as high as you allow it to go.
> 
> Alternatively, slap on some multiband compression on the trombones and compress just the very high end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E.g. this setup will only start to kick in when the Dynamics/CC1 goes above ~95 or so.


Thanks for the tip @aaronventure. Whenever I go behind in the curtain in Kontakt I can never understand what anything is doing haha. I guess that's something I may need to take more time to learn about. I'll definitely check out the dynamic compression trick though, especially since I'm still learning how to mix my own stuff.


----------



## El Buhdai

Juulu said:


> Thanks for the tip @aaronventure. Whenever I go behind in the curtain in Kontakt I can never understand what anything is doing haha. I guess that's something I may need to take more time to learn about. I'll definitely check out the dynamic compression trick though, especially since I'm still learning how to mix my own stuff.


Dynamic eq could also likely achieve something similar, and also help with the excess brightness on trumpets at lower dynamic levels. But I'm just a composer, not a developer who's spent the last 5+ years and thousands of hours building virtual brass instruments out of glorified sine waves and advanced math, so take it how you will.  

Seriously though Aaron, still have no idea how you managed that.


----------



## lljfnord

aaronventure said:


> Depends on the actual line. Lyrical lines in lower octaves of the instrument's range? Playing that loud would really kill the player.
> 
> Marcato lines? Sure, they will go into that range, but drop quickly.
> 
> As @ModalRealist said, it's hard to put it into words exactly, without pointing to specific passages in musical pieces, and we can easily do hundreds of these. Hence the suggestion to go and perform pieces and get the performance to match the recording as closely as possible. www.imslp.org is chock full of free scores.


Thank you for the reply, and for the lesson! I am learning a ton from you here. This alone justifies the price I paid for the IW/IB bundle.


----------



## mutex

Oh My God... OMG

I just found out that I was having issues with inconsistent playing in IB all this time because of my unusual template setup in Reaper. I fired up a project and rechecked my setup now because I couldn't possibly believe that I was the only one experiencing these issues. And now I found the problem 😁

What a ....... relieve! Best brass library.... EVER

EDIT: Gonna fix my template now which already contains IB, IW and (very soon) IS (right? right? 😂)


----------



## I like music

We haven't had any discussions from Aaron about how the strings are going, and what he is learning etc. 

Perhaps he really did mean the +1 thing. I really hope he didn't, because in that case, by my calculation, the strings won't be released until at least 2050. @aaronventure the +1 thing was a joke right? Right?


----------



## aaronventure

mutex said:


> Oh My God... OMG
> 
> I just found out that I was having issues with inconsistent playing in IB all this time because of my unusual template setup in Reaper. I fired up a project and rechecked my setup now because I couldn't possibly believe that I was the only one experiencing these issues. And now I found the problem 😁
> 
> What a ....... relieve! Best brass library.... EVER
> 
> EDIT: Gonna fix my template now which already contains IB, IW and (very soon) IS (right? right? 😂)


I hope you didn't set it up in a way that allows track feedback so as to have audio output on the same MIDI tracks you use to record MIDI data to, because that prevents the anticipative processing or whatever Reaper calls it, which tanks the performance when it comes to heavy-on-DSP instruments (which Infinite is).


----------



## mutex

aaronventure said:


> I hope you didn't set it up in a way that allows track feedback so as to have audio output on the same MIDI tracks you use to record MIDI data to, because that prevents the anticipative processing or whatever Reaper calls it, which tanks the performance when it comes to heavy-on-DSP instruments (which Infinite is).


No, it wasn't track feedback 😁

I put a Reaper plugin (ReaControlMIDI) in the FX chain in front of almost every orchestral library I use (in case of IB/IW, in front of every Kontakt instance). So the MIDI effectively goes trough this plugin first. My problem was that I had its "MIDI Out" option set to "Merge with MIDI bus", which I guess caused doubling of MIDI signals or something. The effect was wonky sustains in IB, like if the brass player couldn't keep constant pressure while holding a note. When I changed it to "Replace MIDI bus" the problems were gone.

Why I have this setup? Because of two reasons.
1 - I like to have the CC control as a separate automation lane in Reaper, instead of having CC data inside the MIDI clip. This way I can see and manipulate the expression in the main track window of Reaper like a normal automation lane.
2 - I have an ICON Platform X+ with touch sensitive motorized faders. I use it to control expression and other parameters in orchestral libraries. The faders actually control the parameters in ReaControlMIDI, which in turn translates them to any MIDI CC signals I need. In case of IB, I've set it up to have the first fader control CC1 for dynamics.






What I can then do with this setup is the following. While the track is playing, my motorized faders will move according to the expression automation of the selected track. The moment I touch a fader, the fader stops moving and begins recording instead, overwriting the automation from that point on until I release the fader again, in which case it goes back to following the automation again. This allows me to "jump in" into the automation at any moment by touching the faders.

This is what it looks like in Reaper. The automation below the track is the "Dynamics" of "Horn 1".


----------



## DANIELE

mutex said:


> I like to have the CC control as a separate automation lane in Reaper, instead of having CC data inside the MIDI clip. This way I can see and manipulate the expression in the main track window of Reaper like a normal automation lane.


I used to do the same thing for the same reason but now I use the external envelopes only for few things that I need to adjust a little during the playback, or maybe only to adjust in the first place without opening the VST ui.
Recently I did a little upgrade in my template using ReaControlMIDI. In reaper I noticed that after touching the CCs in the midi editor cc lanes when you are not using them they all go to 0 by default. When I write some notes in the midi editor I like also to hear the sound of them for example so I managed to turn on the modulation of some ReaCM CC I set up, this way when I don't touch the CCs they stay at a default value, when I touch them they follow the cc drawing. Very useful.
Another example is some CCsI want to stay at a default value if I don't use them.

Using the external lanes could be messy when you start dealing with a lot of CCs and I managed to organize the midi editor to load different lane groups by clicking on a button in the upper toolbar. It is also easier to use when you copy/paste midi items.


----------



## mutex

DANIELE said:


> Using the external lanes could be messy when you start dealing with a lot of CCs


I don't intend to use a lot. For the BBCSO and Nucleus I really only need two, for example. These lanes are also usually hidden and I can use a hotkey to show/hide them on a per track basis.

The main reason for that was to have faders follow the CC automation, as the ICON Platform X+ doesn't allow faders to receive feedback when in MIDI mode (that limitation was introduced in a firmware update some time ago). So I run it in MCP mode through ReaControlMIDI with the third party extension CSI to define how the control surface interacts with Reaper and the FX plugins inside a track.


----------



## DANIELE

mutex said:


> I don't intend to use a lot. For the BBCSO and Nucleus I really only need two, for example. These lanes are also usually hidden and I can use a hotkey to show/hide them on a per track basis.
> 
> The main reason for that was to have faders follow the CC automation, as the ICON Platform X+ doesn't allow faders to receive feedback when in MIDI mode (that limitation was introduced in a firmware update some time ago). So I run it in MCP mode through ReaControlMIDI with the third party extension CSI to define how the control surface interacts with Reaper and the FX plugins inside a track.


Yeah I read about the faders. About the "lot of CCs" thing I was talking about this kind of virtual instruments that oftein require to shape some CCs to get the desired result.

Well, the good thing with Reaper is that you can shape the DAW as you want for your needs. I did a lot of customizations, recently I found a script for note humanization, I edited it via the script editor, I created a custom action and I put it in my MIDI editor toolbar. A while ago I extended a glissandi script with some more automations for the user, I still use it and I'd like to update it more.

What a great DAW!


----------



## Ivan M.

I just love how Infinite is easy to work with. This is the initial version of Rossini - Magpie mockup. I've only played in the notes, there's no CC1 automation, no detailed polishing. Same with the supporting SM Strings. And yet it sounds so satisfying:

View attachment magpie rossini 01.mp3


----------



## MBulteau

aaronventure said:


> Depends on the actual line. Lyrical lines in lower octaves of the instrument's range? Playing that loud would really kill the player.
> 
> Marcato lines? Sure, they will go into that range, but drop quickly.
> 
> As @ModalRealist said, it's hard to put it into words exactly, without pointing to specific passages in musical pieces, and we can easily do hundreds of these. Hence the suggestion to go and perform pieces and get the performance to match the recording as closely as possible. www.imslp.org is chock full of free scores.
> 
> I can't quite say that sustained lines should always be below the very high CC1 range, because there are exceptions. Take a listen to this example:
> 
> 
> 
> You'd think the way to perform this would be to just set CC to 127 and be done with it. But if you listen closely, you can hear the note is a bit stronger on the attack, dips down a bit, and then increases in volume ever so slightly towards the end. So if this one were to start at 127, it would dip down to 120-122, before ending at 125. Like very, very tiny _fp <._ These miniscule CC1 movements won't do much when it comes to conventional libraries, but they _do matter_ in Infinite, because what you're perceiving isn't a crossfade between two layers, but instead a single voice dying down in dynamics, due to the layers being perfectly phase aligned.
> 
> Now, when it comes to doing this line with a trumpet ensemble, there are multiple way to approach this. You can have all the trumpets doing the same kind of movement, or you can have just two doing it, while the other two don't push so high to 127, but instead play the line at 122-120 throughout. So many ways you can impact the sound of the overall line depending on how you perform the other 3 trumpets.



I was going to say, after the previous discussion on how every brass line *had* to go below 100 soon after the attack, that one of my favorite brassissimo moments is this absolutely no-f*cks-given Berlioz monster of a 3-trombone note that to my ears cannot sound like anything below 120:



(clip starts at 6:45, first fortissimo at 6:54 for comparison, the trombone moment I am referring to is specifically at 7:13 in the second fortissimo)

I can only classify this as a steady 2-second 127-120 truck horn.


----------



## Jorf88

MBulteau said:


> I was going to say, after the previous discussion on how every brass line *had* to go below 100 soon after the attack, that one of my favorite brassissimo moments is this absolutely no-f*cks-given Berlioz monster of a 3-trombone note that to my ears cannot sound like anything below 120:
> 
> 
> 
> (clip starts at 6:45, first fortissimo at 6:54 for comparison, the trombone moment I am referring to is specifically at 7:13 in the second fortissimo)
> 
> I can only classify this as a steady 2-second 127-120 truck horn.



I honestly don't think it is... that's like 105-110 or so for a real professional bone player. Everything connected to the embouchure is very controlled (brassiness, growl, lip flutter). That's just how loud trombones are when they bell up a bit towards the listener (mics in this case).

One facet of brass instruments that gets absolutely lost amongst the VI world is just how _loud _brass are. This is a reasonable example of that. You can have a full 16/16/12/12/8 symphonic string section... that's 64 people playing.... and throw three bones in there and the bones can absolutely dominate when they blast out something like that Berlioz section (this is orchestrated for 3 bones on that blast, by the way, just FF not even accented).


----------



## MBulteau

I am aware, I did mention it was a note shared by 3 trombones.

I get your point, though, and it definitely stays above 100 throughout.


----------



## Jorf88

MBulteau said:


> I am aware, I did mention it was a note shared by 3 trombones.
> 
> I get your point, though, and it definitely stays above 100 throughout.


Another point that wasn't mentioned here is range. That concert Eb is in a relatively comfortable part of the Trombone's range, despite being in the higher part of their register. That helps with both perceived loudness, as well as maximum instrument output. 
That is a great passage, by the way. I haven't listened to that overture in probably 10 years, so it's going into the playlist for today!


----------



## MBulteau

It's definitely my favorite recording of this overture. Every other I find is much too sluggish, and in none of them does this Eb pierce through as solidly as here.


----------



## Trash Panda

I know the trombone blasts are the focus of this convo, but holy hell! Those violin runs at 7:26.


----------



## lljfnord

The link that I am about to post is probably going to embarrass me.

This is my first attempt at using Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds in a composition. It came prior to my discussion with Aaron Venture about tweaking velocities and CC1 values, with the idea of peaking CC1 above 100 and letting it fall back below for many forte/fortissimo hits. What you'll probably tell me is that I've done everything, or at least _almost_ everything, wrong.

I consider myself extremely fortunate in that the commissioning client liked the piece as is and paid for it in full. Still, I wonder what I could have done better. I lay my soul open to all of you. Here is the Bandcamp link to the piece:



Quick technical notes: The piece was composed in Cakewalk by Bandlab. Brass and Woodwinds are IB and IW. The drum corps style percussion comes from the Sample Logic Virtual Ensemble Trilogy virtual instrument library. All other percussion and all strings come from the Mighty Roland SC-88Pro.


----------



## shawnsingh

Tubas (and cimbassi? or euphonium?) at 2:40 are really great.

All sounds great to me, strings are unavoiadbly synthy, but doesn't really detract from the bounce and energy!


----------



## lljfnord

shawnsingh said:


> Tubas (and cimbassi? or euphonium?) at 2:40 are really great.


That's the tuba, cimbasso, and bass trombone (with a nerfed run to the first note of the phrase). Only one instrument per part. Glad you liked it! Thanks!

Sorry about the strings, but I can't afford anything other than the SC-88Pro right now. I've got my money saved up for AV's crossgrade offer to Infinite Strings, and I'm not buying any other string libraries until IS comes out. 'Twould be a waste of money for me, don't you know?


----------



## Fibigero

I often have this problem that I hear this strange metronomelike sound. I attached a video where you can hear it. It comes when I play notes in on the keyboard but also when I play back something. It only happens whenever Infinitie brass is playing. What could be the cause for it? I have enough RAM and cpu (usually around 80% is unused). In logic when I look at the cpu/performance meter, the right side goes all the way up (see attached screenshot).


----------



## jeremyr

I've been using the brass and winds for a year now. They're probably my favourite sample libraries of all time. The updated brass is especially great at cutting through the sound, but also blends really well during softer moments. I'm really hoping the strings follow suit.

Here's an example of the type of music I use it for (combining with TSS and SAM harp + percussion):


----------



## doctoremmet

jeremyr said:


> I've been using the brass and winds for a year now. They're probably my favourite sample libraries of all time. The updated brass is especially great at cutting through the sound, but also blends really well during softer moments. I'm really hoping the strings follow suit.
> 
> Here's an example of the type of music I use it for (combining with TSS and SAM harp + percussion):



That is lovely


----------



## Jamus

Fibigero said:


> I often have this problem that I hear this strange metronomelike sound. I attached a video where you can hear it. It comes when I play notes in on the keyboard but also when I play back something. It only happens whenever Infinitie brass is playing. What could be the cause for it? I have enough RAM and cpu (usually around 80% is unused). In logic when I look at the cpu/performance meter, the right side goes all the way up (see attached screenshot).


I was going to say it sounds like a CPU/buffer size issue.


----------



## Fibigero

Jamus said:


> I was going to say it sounds like a CPU/buffer size issue.


It might be just one setting I need to change somewhere, but don't know which one it could be. I just find it strange that it only happens with infinite. no other sample library in kontakt or other player has that issue. I guess there is something different in how infinite is storing/playing samples given its small size when loaded into kontakt, compared to others?


----------



## Jamus

I'm not familiar with logic but maybe you need to check a multithreading box in the options somewhere? Does raising the buffer size do anything?

I find it strange that the ticking noise is evenly timed. Usually when I have buffer issues it turns into a static mess, not a well time crackle. Did Kontakt somehow mess up the sample loop points? I have no idea ☹️


----------



## SirKen

Fibigero said:


> It might be just one setting I need to change somewhere, but don't know which one it could be. I just find it strange that it only happens with infinite. no other sample library in kontakt or other player has that issue. I guess there is something different in how infinite is storing/playing samples given its small size when loaded into kontakt, compared to others?


What CPU do you have? Have you looked into disabling C-states in your bios?


----------



## Fibigero

Jamus said:


> I'm not familiar with logic but maybe you need to check a multithreading box in the options somewhere? Does raising the buffer size do anything?
> 
> I find it strange that the ticking noise is evenly timed. Usually when I have buffer issues it turns into a static mess, not a well time crackle. Did Kontakt somehow mess up the sample loop points? I have no idea ☹️


Didn't change anything


----------



## Fibigero

SirKen said:


> What CPU do you have? Have you looked into disabling C-states in your bios?


CPU: 2x2.93 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
RAM: 64GB 1333 MHz DDR3

There is a bios in mac?


----------



## doctoremmet

Fibigero said:


> CPU: 2x2.93 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
> RAM: 64GB 1333 MHz DDR3
> 
> There is a bios in mac?


For sure. As long as Macs run on motherboards, they’ll have a BIOS  (UEFI)


----------



## oceanic714

Here's a demo that I recorded today of some live trombone with virtual brass choir accompaniment!

This should give everyone an idea of how Infinite Brass stacks up to the real thing. I know PerryD has some great live trumpet/flugelhorn demos as well. I also have attached the same track with Infinite as the trombone soloist for comparison.


----------



## duringtheafter

oceanic714 said:


> Here's a demo that I recorded today of some live trombone with virtual brass choir accompaniment!
> 
> This should give everyone an idea of how Infinite Brass stacks up to the real thing. I know PerryD has some great live trumpet/flugelhorn demos as well.



This is really beautiful. Perhaps a tiny bit of vibrato in the lead trumpet at opportune moments would make this even more expressive, although it's really really lovely as it is.

Wondering if you could mock-up the same piece with a lead infinite brass trombone, even if for only sixty seconds worth, so we could hear a one-to-one comparison?

Again, really lovely work. And the playing is great too.


----------



## oceanic714

duringtheafter said:


> This is really beautiful. Perhaps a tiny bit of vibrato in the lead trumpet at opportune moments would make this even more expressive, although it's really really lovely as it is.
> 
> Wondering if you could mock-up the same piece with a lead infinite brass trombone, even if for only sixty seconds worth, so we could hear a one-to-one comparison?
> 
> Again, really lovely work. And the playing is great too.


Unfortunately I couldn't figure out how to add vibrato post-recording without linking it with dynamics (which sounded wonky), so I had to leave it out. But I did edit the post and threw in a recording with Infinite trombone as a soloist!


----------



## lljfnord

oceanic714 said:


> Unfortunately I couldn't figure out how to add vibrato post-recording without linking it with dynamics (which sounded wonky), so I had to leave it out.


According to your profile, you're using Cakewalk Sonar, right? Shouldn't you have been able to draw in a line of CC20 (vibrato rate) values into the bottom pane of the piano roll view, independent of dynamics? Or do you not have CC20 (and the other IB/IW controllers) set up in your default controller list yet? I know that was my problem at first, and the fine folks over on the Facebook C/SUG helped get me set up properly so I could draw in any IB/IW controller value.


----------



## oceanic714

lljfnord said:


> According to your profile, you're using Cakewalk Sonar, right? Shouldn't you have been able to draw in a line of CC20 (vibrato rate) values into the bottom pane of the piano roll view, independent of dynamics? Or do you not have CC20 (and the other IB/IW controllers) set up in your default controller list yet? I know that was my problem at first, and the fine folks over on the Facebook C/SUG helped get me set up properly so I could draw in any IB/IW controller value.


I actually have Cubase, gotta go update my profile 😶

I'll try drawing in CC20 when I open the project again, I'm sure there's a way to access it via the piano roll that I'm not seeing


----------



## TimCox

Just wanted to share this here for anyone on the fence, this uses IW and IB set in a smaller room to get a more cartoony sound (I use the studio IR and send to Altiverb) they’re all a mix of close and main mics with close being the dominant



And here it is in context if you were curious


----------



## obey

TimCox said:


> Just wanted to share this here for anyone on the fence, this uses IW and IB set in a smaller room to get a more cartoony sound (I use the studio IR and send to Altiverb) they’re all a mix of close and main mics with close being the dominant
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is in context if you were curious



That's so good, I love it! I just recently picked up Blender and I've been diving through the insane amount of power such an awesome free tool has. Your score goes well with the action!


----------



## Juulu

I think something that's been keeping me away from IW is that there seems to be some kind of "sliding" noise in the legato transitions that makes the woodwinds sound less real. I think it's in IB as well but it just sounds way better for some reason. It doesn't sound like the player is pressing a key, it sounds more like they're sliding a valve in between each note. I also wish you could hear more of the key clicks, especially in the flutes and the lower woods.


----------



## Trash Panda

You can simply touch notes instead of overlapping them to get more of a separation and less of a slur. You can also up the velocity to get a faster transition.

Key clicks have an adjustable slider if you want to get more of that presence. I find IWW has more of that than most of the top tier woodwind libraries.


----------



## lljfnord

Juulu said:


> I think something that's been keeping me away from IW is that there seems to be some kind of "sliding" noise in the legato transitions that makes the woodwinds sound less real. I think it's in IB as well but it just sounds way better for some reason. It doesn't sound like the player is pressing a key, it sounds more like they're sliding a valve in between each note.


I found, at least in my Ereis Overture piece, that the legato transitions could be controlled by how much of an overlap (or lack thereof) you had from one note to the next. A very short overlap gave you a very short legato, while a long overlap gave you a slur. Your mileage may vary, but I'd at least give it a try.


----------



## Jamus

Juulu said:


> I think something that's been keeping me away from IW is that there seems to be some kind of "sliding" noise in the legato transitions that makes the woodwinds sound less real. I think it's in IB as well but it just sounds way better for some reason. It doesn't sound like the player is pressing a key, it sounds more like they're sliding a valve in between each note. I also wish you could hear more of the key clicks, especially in the flutes and the lower woods.


You read my mind 😂

The key clicks seem to be mapped to the dynamics which I find strange. Someone suggested diving into the Kontakt instrument settings and unlinking whatever the volume control is. If I had to make a request for future IW versions it would be to bring the clicks back!

The legato sliding portamento effect in the woodwinds has bugged me forever, but I still prefer IW over everything else now. Can't go back. Won't go back!!


----------



## Tralen

Jamus said:


> You read my mind 😂
> 
> The key clicks seem to be mapped to the dynamics which I find strange. Someone suggested diving into the Kontakt instrument settings and unlinking whatever the volume control is. If I had to make a request for future IW versions it would be to bring the clicks back!
> 
> The legato sliding portamento effect in the woodwinds has bugged me forever, but I still prefer IW over everything else now. Can't go back. Won't go back!!


???

The Key Noise is mapped to CC31 by default.


----------



## Russell Anderson

It’s difficult to play in the slurs in IW I find, I agree, in such a way that the portamento effect doesn’t take place. It’s the one shining giveaway for me to expose an otherwise impeccable library. I might shoot AV an email about it unless he pops in to share his thoughts here; I’d love to hear what they’d sound like with this being adjusted or, adjustable (for instance I like the way the transition style works with the clarinets, but the higher and lower voices I’d love to hear tighter)


----------



## DivingInSpace

lljfnord said:


> I found, at least in my Ereis Overture piece, that the legato transitions could be controlled by how much of an overlap (or lack thereof) you had from one note to the next. A very short overlap gave you a very short legato, while a long overlap gave you a slur. Your mileage may vary, but I'd at least give it a try.


Really? I was under the impression that it was more dependent on velocity? Gotta try this out.


----------



## Jamus

Tralen said:


> ???
> 
> The Key Noise is mapped to CC31 by default.


It is, but they get quieter or louder with the MOD wheel as well. I tested this by muting all groups except the key clicks. You can easily turn key clicks up in the key clicks group by simply turning up the volume on the amp but still it seems strange. I assume it is so that when the dynamics get loud the key click transients are still somewhat apart of the sound. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## ModalRealist

It’s been a whole month since I bought a string library. I need another dose to help me wait for IS.

SM or TSS or CSS…


----------



## doctoremmet

ModalRealist said:


> It’s been a whole month since I bought a string library. I need another dose to help me wait for IS.
> 
> SM or TSS or CSS…


VSL Synhronized Dimension Strings, to start training your divisi muscles


----------



## Jamus

ModalRealist said:


> It’s been a whole month since I bought a string library. I need another dose to help me wait for IS.
> 
> SM or TSS or CSS…


I just saw Sample Modeling has some kind of update for the strings so now they're SM Solo, Chamber and Ensemble strings. 😯


----------



## Piotrek K.

ModalRealist said:


> It’s been a whole month since I bought a string library. I need another dose to help me wait for IS.
> 
> SM or TSS or CSS…


Because of IS I missed few "no brainers" and current 8dio "no brainer" messes with my inner strength. I would really love to hear any info if infinite strings are near, far (wherever you are)...


----------



## Zanshin

Piotrek K. said:


> Because of IS I missed few "no brainers" and current 8dio "no brainer" messes with my inner strength. I would really love to hear any info if infinite strings are near, far (wherever you are)...


I wish I had your strength, I bought at least 5 solo strings packages in 2021, not mentioning ensembles strings omg.


----------



## jaf518

Piotrek K. said:


> Because of IS I missed few "no brainers" and current 8dio "no brainer" messes with my inner strength. I would really love to hear any info if infinite strings are near, far (wherever you are)...


I'm in the same boat haha. IB/IWW have quickly become my go-to libraries, and my hope is that IS will similarly be kind of an "endgame" string library for me, so I've been holding off on purchasing any other strings until it's out. But that 8dio Century strings deal is pretty tempting lol


----------



## Fibigero

I hope infinite strings will sound infinitely better than other string libraries based on sample modeling technique. They just don't sound real. Also not a big fan of tokyio scoring strings.


----------



## Denkii

Fibigero said:


> I hope infinite strings will sound infinitely better than other string libraries based on sample modeling technique. They just don't sound real. Also not a big fan of tokyio scoring strings.


Maybe you don't like the sound of strings?

Jokes aside: i would not expect Infinite strings to sound better than something that is recorded in a proper space without having to put a lot of work into it.
My hopes are more that it will be:
a) easy match with IW+IB
b) easier to use (less having to fiddle with an abundance of parameters) than sample modeling strings. Maybe I shouldn't say "easier to use" but focus more on "easier to make it sound well (enough) than SM strings".


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> Maybe you don't like the sound of strings?
> 
> Jokes aside: i would not expect Infinite strings to sound better than something that is recorded in a proper space without having to put a lot of work into it.
> My hopes are more that it will be:
> a) easy match with IW+IB
> b) easier to use (less having to fiddle with an abundance of parameters) than sample modeling strings. Maybe I shouldn't say "easier to use" but focus more on "easier to make it sound well (enough) than SM strings".


Well put. I bet IS will set new records for being playable and will be some sort of new paradigm for divisi writing, but I sincerely doubt it is going to sound incredibly good at the same time. I just don’t think all those boxes can be checked at the same time just yet.


----------



## sound team apk

My main hope is that Aaron figures out a way to do a better job with ensembles than we've seen thus far. I think there's a gap he could fill there without pulling off the seemingly-impossible. 

AM and SM solo strings are quite good, but I've never been able to use the SM ensembles (though I think the violins are better than, you know, the cellos). A relatively-easy-to-use cello ensemble even at the level of IW's flutes would be a big improvement for me, and I'd get a lot of use out of it.


----------



## Jamus

This all comes back to the trade off between realism and playability/programmability. I think it's pretty safe to assume IS will be at very least as good as IW and IB, which is good thing. Since it's the third Infinite addition it may be top notch right off the mark 🤘


----------



## muziksculp

Strings are the toughest section of the orchestra to emulate, and the Strings Sample Library market is super saturated with all sorts of libraries, you also have the Physical Modeling options from Audio Modelings SWAM, which are also working on developing SWAM Ensemble Strings, you also have the hybrid Sampling with Modeling option, from Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings, it's a tough market to stand out in this crowded space, unless you have an edge, or something that competes really well because of an advantage, and great sounding emulation of real strings, with less effort, and complexities to do so.

I don't have a clue where IS will stand when it is released in the current String Library/Instruments marketplace. Let me say, I'm very cautiously optimistic.


----------



## DANIELE

The market is saturated with strings libraries, true, but it is lacking strings virtual instruments. SampleModeling is a pionieer in this field and they are doing a really good job in improving their instrument, I think more developers should aim for this kind of thing (like AV is doing).

All the libraries in the market are collection of pre-recorded articulations, no matter how the UI could be glossy or the algorithm could be good, they will sound as a collection of pre-recorded sounds and if you want to write a track that is more than only spiccatos and longs you will struggle.

Once I tried to write the beginning of the Star Wars intro, it took me hours only to build the first measures. I could never write a track like "Battle Over Coruscant" with those libraries.
I mean, look at the templates of the composers that tried to do this, there are hundred of tracks (strings spiccato, strings a little less spiccato, strings a little more spiccato, low strings, high strings, strings longs, strings longer, strings shorter and so on).

So, in the end, yes, there are a lot of "libraries" but a very very few virtual strings instruments out there.


----------



## Piotrek K.

I survived 8dio offer but I was very close to pull the trigger. My ssd - after closer inspection (and calling me a few names) - said no though .

Still waiting then. And to be honest I expect a lot from IS. First of all I expect strings 1.0 to be at the level of brass 1.6. As Aaron is still improving his libraries I have no reason to think that he will start from a low bar with strings (especially taking into consideration huge market for strings, yes, there are tons of those, but it seems they are still selling). Plus I see strings as a great opportunity to invite more users to Infinite ecosystem. So yep, my hopes are super high.


----------



## muziksculp

DANIELE said:


> So, in the end, yes, there are a lot of "libraries" but a very very few virtual strings instruments out there.


Yes, That's very true. 

We need more developers to join the world of Physical Modeling, and Hybrid Sampling-Modeling. This is the future.


----------



## Jamus

Piotrek K. said:


> (especially taking into consideration huge market for strings, yes, there are tons of those, but it seems they are still selling)


I wonder if it's because no one is ever completely happy with the results they're getting? Enter IS. One strings to rule them all??


----------



## Juulu

Jamus said:


> I wonder if it's because no one is ever completely happy with the results they're getting? Enter IS. One strings to rule them all??


One could only hope, but I'm keeping my expectations low. I just need something that has solid sample quality with a sort of hyper focus on playability. I've always enjoyed performance patches in sample libraries (like in some spitfire libraries), but I haven't found any that do it exceptionally like IB does. So, I'm hoping that IS will fill that gap for me, and if I need to layer something like CSS for sound quality purposes then I don't think I would be disappointed.


----------



## shawnsingh

Finally getting half my music setup working again, and started to tinker with brass 1.6. Love it! though, sadly, seems like grafting old 1.4 / 1.5 midi to 1.6 will not be worth the effort, there's enough difference in midi CC range behavior as well as legato behavior responding differently to note velocities. Actually, from a MIDI editing perspective, I don't mind these features, but for me personally it hinders playability, since I have a very hard time associating legato note velocity to legato transition speed. I also have a hard time controlling midi velocities on my keyboard when playing staccato. But still, I think the improvements in capability and tone are worth the tradeoff. I personally do prefer the ability to control the performance with a fast editing workflow over having perfectly playable instruments, since I'd never be able to master the real-time performance of this many parameters anyway.

Thumbs up!

About strings... I think I feel enough brand loyalty I'm really not worried whatever happens to the strings on first few version. From a business perspective, I'm sure it's critical to having the best possible initial launch of the product, or else it gets lost in history before there's ever a chance to update it. But I am more in it for the long game, I'm more excited by the potential of the strings library continuing to improve and refine the library on top of an already very promising approach. I feel like it's those iterations of improvement where IS might really be able to shine.


----------



## obey

Are you playing through a MIDI controller or a virtual keyboard that's still playing to channel 1 direct to the VST from the device? I'm not sure what routing input devices looks like in FL.


----------



## Tralen

monochrome said:


> I'm not sure if this kind of post would be allowed in this thread, but I'm new to kontakt and having issues. I don't even think it's an IW specific problem necessarily but maybe somebody can help? Thank you!
> 
> View attachment kontaktissue.mp4
> View attachment kontaktissue2.mp4


One thing you could consider is splitting that multi into individual Kontakt instances for each instrument, it is better from a CPU standpoint (each track can be processed independently) and will make routing much easier.


----------



## rockrvilt

And while we are waiting for the sure to be awesome Infinite Strings: 
Happy 90th birthday, John Williams 🥳🥳 Inspired by the great masters big day, I decided to work on my mockup skills by creating a mockup of the first part of the Star Wars main title  Used only Infinite woodwinds and brass for the winds. Lacking Infinite strings, I hade to use a slew of string libraries to try to get something half decent. Tried my best to make the mockup as realistic as possible


----------



## monochrome

obey said:


> Are you playing through a MIDI controller or a virtual keyboard that's still playing to channel 1 direct to the VST from the device? I'm not sure what routing input devices looks like in FL.


It is a physical MIDI keyboard, but I did end up fixing the problem! Sorry for bothering you! and thank you for answering



Tralen said:


> One thing you could consider is splitting that multi into individual Kontakt instances for each instrument, it is better from a CPU standpoint (each track can be processed independently) and will make routing much easier.


Oh thank you! I had no idea I honestly would have thought the less Kontakt instances there were the better it would run


----------



## obey

No bother! I'm new to the space, but interested in and invested in the Infinite community because Aaron has shown his intention to better the whole Infinite ecosystem over time and I think the community around it has naturally extended that mindset in sharing information and skills. I think that's neat as hell so even if I'm fresh in, I try and lend a hand where I think it's useful as we all do, haha.


----------



## Tralen

monochrome said:


> Oh thank you! I had no idea I honestly would have thought the less Kontakt instances there were the better it would run


The main benefit of running a single Kontakt instance is a bit of RAM preservation, as each additional instance adds ~70MB, but that is meaningless with instruments like the Infinite Series which use little RAM.

They do use a lot of CPU though, and since multi-threading in FL and most (if not all) other DAWs is distributed over the tracks, if you pile everything on a single track you will be piling everything on a single core.


----------



## obey

rockrvilt said:


> And while we are waiting for the sure to be awesome Infinite Strings:
> Happy 90th birthday, John Williams 🥳🥳 Inspired by the great masters big day, I decided to work on my mockup skills by creating a mockup of the first part of the Star Wars main title  Used only Infinite woodwinds and brass for the winds. Lacking Infinite strings, I hade to use a slew of string libraries to try to get something half decent. Tried my best to make the mockup as realistic as possible



WOW, the dynamics and playing here is great. Excellent job all round!

I am not a talented player, but I mocked this up on my dang laptop querty keyboard in 10m. ZERO dynamics or other of the myriad controllable things available to make it even more expressive. I just loaded up 4 horn patches and jammed this out in Mozarteum . It's unfair levels of fun and playable and I am as excited to learn how to play this "instrument" of an instrument collection as I am for the future additions and improvements to it.


----------



## rockrvilt

obey said:


> WOW, the dynamics and playing here is great. Excellent job all round!
> 
> I am not a talented player, but I mocked this up on my dang laptop querty keyboard in 10m. ZERO dynamics or other of the myriad controllable things available to make it even more expressive. I just loaded up 4 horn patches and jammed this out in Mozarteum . It's unfair levels of fun and playable and I am as excited to learn how to play this "instrument" of an instrument collection as I am for the future additions and improvements to it.


Thanks  Yes, the Infinite series is so great! Saves me a ton of time when mocking up as they are so playable, dynamic and reasponsive without any keyswitching, no other VSTs come close in my experience. Yes, even with little dynamics your force theme sounds good, just paint in some CC1 and find the right velocity for each note, and you will make it sound great


----------



## duringtheafter

rockrvilt said:


> And while we are waiting for the sure to be awesome Infinite Strings:
> Happy 90th birthday, John Williams 🥳🥳 Inspired by the great masters big day, I decided to work on my mockup skills by creating a mockup of the first part of the Star Wars main title  Used only Infinite woodwinds and brass for the winds. Lacking Infinite strings, I hade to use a slew of string libraries to try to get something half decent. Tried my best to make the mockup as realistic as possible



This sounds great, even on my dinky phone speaker! I have to say the least convincing part of it is the strings; even with the layering of multiple libraries they sound the least convincing. Can't wait to hear it with Infinite Strings!


----------



## rockrvilt

duringtheafter said:


> This sounds great, even on my dinky phone speaker! I have to say the least convincing part of it is the strings; even wirh the layering of multiple libraries they sound the least convincing. Can't wait to hear it with infinite strings!


Yes, I totally agree  It was a nightmare to work with the strings compared to the Infinite libraries, and the result sub par compared to the other sections :-P But good enough for now  Will try to replace the strings with Infinite strings when the time comes


----------



## Trash Panda

rockrvilt said:


> And while we are waiting for the sure to be awesome Infinite Strings:
> Happy 90th birthday, John Williams 🥳🥳 Inspired by the great masters big day, I decided to work on my mockup skills by creating a mockup of the first part of the Star Wars main title  Used only Infinite woodwinds and brass for the winds. Lacking Infinite strings, I hade to use a slew of string libraries to try to get something half decent. Tried my best to make the mockup as realistic as possible



The brass sounds really good here, as do the winds. Having tried many libraries, Infinite Brass really seems to be the only brass library that can handle this piece. 

Do you have CSS? It has done pretty well with this in my experience. 

Heart broken you didn’t include the piccolo solo at the end. 😢


----------



## Jamus

Goood. Gooooood.


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> The brass sounds really good here, as do the winds. Having tried many libraries, Infinite Brass really seems to be the only brass library that can handle this piece.
> 
> Do you have CSS? It has done pretty well with this in my experience.
> 
> Heart broken you didn’t include the piccolo solo at the end. 😢


It was a superb mockup, but let down sorely by the ommision of the solo piccolo. And so I only give it 9 out of 10😜


----------



## DANIELE

rockrvilt said:


> And while we are waiting for the sure to be awesome Infinite Strings:
> Happy 90th birthday, John Williams 🥳🥳 Inspired by the great masters big day, I decided to work on my mockup skills by creating a mockup of the first part of the Star Wars main title  Used only Infinite woodwinds and brass for the winds. Lacking Infinite strings, I hade to use a slew of string libraries to try to get something half decent. Tried my best to make the mockup as realistic as possible



It sounds great, the weak part is the strings one.


----------



## rockrvilt

Trash Panda said:


> The brass sounds really good here, as do the winds. Having tried many libraries, Infinite Brass really seems to be the only brass library that can handle this piece.
> 
> Do you have CSS? It has done pretty well with this in my experience.
> 
> Heart broken you didn’t include the piccolo solo at the end. 😢


Sacrilege! Yes, sorry about the piccolo solo :-P Yes, own and tried CSS too, but it couldn't handle the middle section in a good way, even with the marcato patch, too much sucking effect as the note attack isn't rasponsive enough (a slight fade in), Cinestrings was the closest to being able to play it somewhat that I tried. And yes, Infinite Brass is awsome


----------



## rockrvilt

I like music said:


> It was a superb mockup, but let down sorely by the ommision of the solo piccolo. And so I only give it 9 out of 10😜


I'll take it! Yes, the sacrilegious ommision will of course take of at least one point :-P Thanks for listening!


----------



## rockrvilt

DANIELE said:


> It sounds great, the weak part is the strings one.


Yes, I agree  Can't wait for infinite strings, if it's anywhere near as good as infinite WW and brass, we're in for a treat :-D


----------



## rockrvilt

Jamus said:


> Goood. Gooooood.


Haha!


----------



## Max Bonsi

A little test of the Clarinet of IW...

Max


----------



## Marcel

Hey hey everyone! Been about a few thousand years since I've posted...anywhere on Vi, but ever since I got IB and IW, I cannot stop using them. Thought I would share a little in context of them from a certain large scale project of mine.


----------



## rockrvilt

Marcel said:


> Hey hey everyone! Been about a few thousand years since I've posted...anywhere on Vi, but ever since I got IB and IW, I cannot stop using them. Thought I would share a little in context of them from a certain large scale project of mine.


Very cool composition and great sounding mockup  My only feecback is that I think there is a little bit to much reverb on the mixing side making things a wee bit muddy, but that is also a taste thing. Could maybe get the more subtle lines in the mockup out more with a bit less room in the mix, or EQ'ing a bit on the reverb. But man, it sounds great


----------



## Marcel

rockrvilt said:


> Very cool composition and great sounding mockup  My only feecback is that I think there is a little bit to much reverb on the mixing side making things a wee bit muddy, but that is also a taste thing. Could maybe get the more subtle lines in the mockup out more with a bit less room in the mix, or EQ'ing a bit on the reverb. But man, it sounds great


I’ve been going through a crisis when it comes to reverb lately. Been trying quite a few settings (still am 😂) and haven’t particularly landed on any hall tail I particularly like. Thought I would start with more extreme rooms to get that out of the way. Also I believe another reason it’s perceived as “muddy,,” is the fact that none of my instruments are mixed so there is defo a lot of mids building up from that.


----------



## rockrvilt

Marcel said:


> I’ve been going through a crisis when it comes to reverb lately. Been trying quite a few settings (still am 😂) and haven’t particularly landed on any hall tail I particularly like. Thought I would start with more extreme rooms to get that out of the way. Also I believe another reason it’s perceived as “muddy,,” is the fact that none of my instruments are mixed so there is defo a lot of mids building up from that.


I understand, and as I mentioned this is also kind of a preferance thing 😊 I am also constantly changing things around and trying new stuff with sometimes mixed results 😅 I do tend to go for the more scoring stage sound myself as I like the more imidiate sound and response of the instruments in contrast to a big concert hall sound, but have been using more reverb lately to give the instruments a little more breathing room 😊 And I understand that this is not a finished product as you said you are working on it, I don't mix properly until the que/song is finished either. Just my 2 cents on what struck me when I listened to it 😊


----------



## monochrome

just got the infinite series the other day, spent a while learning how kontakt works and building a template. 

this is my first attempt at actually making a noise so as a test run I made an infinite wind orchestra version of the theme from guild wars 2 heart of thorns!

View attachment heartofthorns.mp3


I really like how it blends when all the individual instruments actually come together. up until now I was just having so much fun playing the instruments as soloists as I set everything up!


----------



## easynam

monochrome said:


> I'm not sure if this kind of post would be allowed in this thread, but I'm new to kontakt and having issues. I don't even think it's an IW specific problem necessarily but maybe somebody can help? Thank you!
> 
> View attachment kontaktissue.mp4
> View attachment kontaktissue2.mp4


Hi, sorry about this reponse being a little late, but I think it's because you had "Map note color to MIDI channel ticked". Having that ticked is making all your Midi Outs send through channel 1 because thats the channel for the note color you have selected.


----------



## monochrome

easynam said:


> Hi, sorry about this reponse being a little late, but I think it's because you had "Map note color to MIDI channel ticked". Having that ticked is making all your Midi Outs send through channel 1 because thats the channel for the note color you have selected.


yeah that was it. I don't ever remember turning that on but apparently I did and then I made presets of MIDI out with it on I guess so my whole project had it checked. thank you!


----------



## shawnsingh

Max Bonsi said:


> A little test of the Clarinet of IW...
> 
> Max


I think the snare drum is playing all rim shots, which overpowers the rest of the instruments... But trying to listen past that, I think it really does sound great!


----------



## Juulu

Not sure if anyone here would be able to answer this, but I remember Aaron saying IB and IW were chromatically sampled. Is this against the industry norm or are there other sampling companies that adopt this method? I'm more so curious if this way of doing things gives us a greater amount of detail in the samples.


----------



## Trash Panda

Most companies don’t because it doubles the file size of the library and recording cost versus whole tone sampling.


----------



## Tralen

Juulu said:


> Not sure if anyone here would be able to answer this, but I remember Aaron saying IB and IW were chromatically sampled. Is this against the industry norm or are there other sampling companies that adopt this method? I'm more so curious if this way of doing things gives us a greater amount of detail in the samples.


Adding to what @Trash Panda said, some companies also segment their products, with the entry level offering whole tone sampling and the pro version offering full chromatic sampling.


----------



## aaronventure

Juulu said:


> Not sure if anyone here would be able to answer this, but I remember Aaron saying IB and IW were chromatically sampled. Is this against the industry norm or are there other sampling companies that adopt this method? I'm more so curious if this way of doing things gives us a greater amount of detail in the samples.


Sampling diatonically is one of the best compromises you can make in order to save space and RAM (and money). If your library is very big, you sacrifice very little tonally in order to cut the size and RAM use _in half_. Think of all the massive libraries with a bunch of mic positions... they would be twice as big and require twice as much RAM had they been sampled chromatically, for little gain. You'd also have to spend likely twice as much money on hires and studio time. 

E.g. ReFX Nexus has some libraries sampled in 3 semitones, sometimes even 4. Synths are a bit more forgiving in this regard.

For Infinite, size and RAM use weren't an issue, and since there are so many unconventional techniques and concepts at work here, I figured I might as well not cut any corners here.


----------



## rockrvilt

Here is another mockup, fresh of the press  In anticipation of Infinite strings, I decided to work on my playable string runs game and mocked up Hedwig's theme. The woodwinds and brass are (of course) alle Infinite


----------



## Juulu

rockrvilt said:


> Here is another mockup, fresh of the press  In anticipation of Infinite strings, I decided to work on my playable string runs game and mocked up Hedwig's theme. The woodwinds and brass are (of course) alle Infinite



Gotta be one of the best mockups of Williams I've heard. I can't even imagine the amount of time it took for you to recreate this piece. The only JW mockup I've listened to that's comparable is Blakus's Star Wars Main Theme and that was only a 40 second clip. Really good job on this one.


----------



## Bee_Abney

rockrvilt said:


> Here is another mockup, fresh of the press  In anticipation of Infinite strings, I decided to work on my playable string runs game and mocked up Hedwig's theme. The woodwinds and brass are (of course) alle Infinite




Oh my!


----------



## rockrvilt

Juulu said:


> Gotta be one of the best mockups of Williams I've heard. I can't even imagine the amount of time it took for you to recreate this piece. The only JW mockup I've listened to that's comparable is Blakus's Star Wars Main Theme and that was only a 40 second clip. Really good job on this one.


Wow, thanks! Thats really cool of you to say  Took quite a bit of time squeezing in mockup'ing between work and other things the last week/week and a half😅 But pretty happy with the results. Blakus Star Wars title mockup is really excellent! I actually mocked that up myself a couple a weeks ago to learn to mock up brass better, posted it earlier in this thread actually  




__





Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


It’s been a whole month since I bought a string library. I need another dose to help me wait for IS. SM or TSS or CSS… Because of IS I missed few "no brainers" and current 8dio "no brainer" messes with my inner strength. I would really love to hear any info if infinite strings are near, far...




vi-control.net


----------



## Evans

It's funny to see mockups like:
Brass - one library 
Woodwinds - one library 
Percussion - one library 
Strings - 14 libraries 

(an exaggeration, I know)


----------



## rockrvilt

Evans said:


> It's funny to see mockups like:
> Brass - one library
> Woodwinds - one library
> Percussion - one library
> Strings - 14 libraries
> 
> (an exaggeration, I know)


I know! 😂 But it is what it is, and is a testament to the infinite series 😉


----------



## Juulu

rockrvilt said:


> I know! 😂 But it is what it is, and is a testament to the infinite series 😉


Haha ya I'm hoping IS will shore that up for me. I have LASS and BBCSO, and have been resisting buying CSS just in case AV comes out with something revolutionary. I have a feeling we'll be waiting for a while though, maybe even a Q4 release...


----------



## rockrvilt

Juulu said:


> Haha ya I'm hoping IS will shore that up for me. I have LASS and BBCSO, and have been resisting buying CSS just in case AV comes out with something revolutionary. I have a feeling we'll be waiting for a while though, maybe even a Q4 release...


Yes, I have BBC SO, VSL, CSS, MSS, Jaeger ++, really hoping for one library to rule them all one day so I won't have to work with 3-4 libraries at a time for strings 😅 Maybe IS will be that ring of power? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## vicontrolu

If the quality of IS is inversely proportional to the amount of teasing by Aaron, then this can probably be the one string library to rule them all.


----------



## Batrawi

Aaron every time when he's about to release IS but then checks in to see our expectation levels:


----------



## aaronventure

They could hardly be higher than my own.


----------



## Batrawi

aaronventure said:


> They could hardly be higher than my own.


exactlty...you keep raising the bar for yourself, and while this is what we all want (a perfect release), we also don't want you to be that harsh on yourself as the bar must reach a limit (in other words release the damn thing😄)

Edit: just joking pls take all the time you need, I'm just trying to tease you as much as we've been teased so much with IS already😉


----------



## doctoremmet

By now IS are so artificially intelligent, they are about to become self-aware and merge themselves with Wintermute and Syknet


----------



## aaronventure

doctoremmet said:


> By now IS are so artificially intelligent, they are about to become self-aware and merge themselves with Wintermute and Syknet


I need your clothes, your boots, and your fiddle.


----------



## doctoremmet

aaronventure said:


> I need your clothes, your boots, and your fiddle.


I’ll send you all of those things and more, in exchange for one IS demo


----------



## Jamus

aaronventure said:


> I need your clothes, your boots, and your fiddle.


I'll be Bach 😎


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> I need your clothes, your boots, and your fiddle.


We're the ones needing your fiddle(s)!


----------



## rockrvilt

rockrvilt said:


> Here is another mockup, fresh of the press  In anticipation of Infinite strings, I decided to work on my playable string runs game and mocked up Hedwig's theme. The woodwinds and brass are (of course) alle Infinite



Here is a walkthrough of Hedwigs theme if anybody is interested


----------



## jeremyr

Once again putting Infinite Brass + Winds to work along with TSS and Project SAM percussion + harp:


----------



## ansthenia

jeremyr said:


> Once again putting Infinite Brass + Winds to work along with TSS and Project SAM percussion + harp:



Daaaaamn, nice work.


----------



## AlainTH

i don't like the sound but very nice work, bravo


----------



## Fibigero

rockrvilt said:


> Here is a walkthrough of Hedwigs theme if anybody is interested



I actually love your intro music :D would have loved to listen longer to it lol


----------



## Fibigero

aaronventure said:


> They could hardly be higher than my own.


Not sure if I may ask this because I haven't seen the question here, so I'll just ask: What season (or month) do you think we can expect to hear first demos of IS?


----------



## I like music

Fibigero said:


> Not sure if I may ask this because I haven't seen the question here, so I'll just ask: What season (or month) do you think we can expect to hear first demos of IS?


+1 from whatever month they would have originally dropped, now that you've asked the question haha.


----------



## rockrvilt

Fibigero said:


> I actually love your intro music :D would have loved to listen longer to it lol


Haha, thank you  Just some half improvised neo soul guitar jamming, glad you liked it


----------



## Juulu

So I've gone back and listened to some of the IW demo's on Aaron's site (I was not aware you could listen to all the demos in different halls), and I think I may have to change my opinion on the legatos. I think maybe the "sliding" transition I was hearing was due to midi programming. I'm guessing there is something that happens to the transitions at lower velocities that gives the note changes a sort of portamento effect. I really liked the Syrinx demo, though I still can't find a demo where the user has the key noises turned up to be audible. I may have to look into buying IW, even though I think the tone of the instruments could be improved.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Juulu said:


> So I've gone back and listened to some of the IW demo's on Aaron's site (I was not aware you could listen to all the demos in different halls), and I think I may have to change my opinion on the legatos. I think maybe the "sliding" transition I was hearing was due to midi programming. I'm guessing there is something that happens to the transitions at lower velocities that gives the note changes a sort of portamento effect. I really liked the Syrinx demo, though I still can't find a demo where the user has the key noises turned up to be audible. I may have to look into buying IW, even though I think the tone of the instruments could be improved.


Do you have Satin? It works really well with the winds I am finding when thinking of tone and how the sound feels. Airy, bright and focused or diffused sounding flutes, for example, no problem. 

As far as the portamento x velocity comment, it’s regardless of velocity and somehow also key noise by my memory. Note spacing is the more responsible; personally I’m just hoping it gets looked at and a slider added/something where we can dial it in because for instance for Clarinet it sounds good. But for oboe/flute I’d prefer a snappier note transition.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I’m still struggling with this. Anyone have any ideas why only the bone-dry recorded sound is being output when setting each instrument to their own output in Kontakt? No IRs are outputting sound whatsoever, but mix mics are working. @aaronventure sorry to bug you for help with this. This is FL Studio 20.9 with Kontakt 6.6. 6.6.1? Crap I don’t know


Russell Anderson said:


> I'm doing something wrong. Finally am getting around to separating out the woodwind instrument outputs in kontakt in my_ first ever_ template, and lo and behold none of the mics are actually outputting, I'm just getting the raw recordings. Whoa!
> 
> If I don't use the below command it doesn't appear to be an issue, and I'm also able to use the mix mics when the below feature is used, so evidently my Kontakt is only outputting one voice per channel when it should be outputting the close, tree and far mics in that one channel. Has anyone else encountered this?


----------



## aaronventure

Russell Anderson said:


> I’m still struggling with this. Anyone have any ideas why only the bone-dry recorded sound is being output when setting each instrument to their own output in Kontakt? No IRs are outputting sound whatsoever, but mix mics are working. @aaronventure sorry to bug you for help with this. This is FL Studio 20.9 with Kontakt 6.6. 6.6.1? Crap I don’t know


This is my mistake, as I rarely used this feature I never properly looked into what's causing this until the current update cycle when someone brought it up over email (another reason to send feedback via email - on a forum, I just can't keep track of all the talk about Infinite and, bar a direct mention, you're rolling the dice on whether I'll ever see your post).

This will be covered in the next set of updates for Brass/Woodwinds. If it's a serious pain for you, send me an email and we'll see if we can't make a band aid solution for you until the next set of updates lands.


----------



## Russell Anderson

aaronventure said:


> This is my mistake, as I rarely used this feature I never properly looked into what's causing this until the current update cycle when someone brought it up over email (another reason to send feedback via email - on a forum, I just can't keep track of all the talk about Infinite and, bar a direct mention, you're rolling the dice on whether I'll ever see your post).
> 
> This will be covered in the next set of updates for Brass/Woodwinds. If it's a serious pain for you, send me an email and we'll see if we can't make a band aid solution for you until the next set of updates lands.


Thank you thank you thank you! Yeah, I also don’t like the optics of asking for help from a developer in public, seems to put you on the spot. I got lazy about it and hope you’ll excuse me for it, but I’m happy to hear it’s on your radar. For the time being it won’t cause me any grief (not for probably a few months, and even then). I appreciate your efforts very much!


----------



## RogiervG

soooo. when is the strings going to be relea...... oops i shouldn't have asked out loud...


----------



## I like music

RogiervG said:


> soooo. when is the strings going to be relea...... oops i shouldn't have asked out loud...


You heard the man. Everyone, quick... email him!


----------



## monochrome

This is my first time using infinite to write an actual piece so here's some of a wind ensemble project I'm doing for class.

Not that I know much about sample libraries to compare it to anything other than EW CC but I love how quickly I can get polished ideas out and I can't wait for strings :D


----------



## doctoremmet

Silly question. I need to re-download my IB v1.6. I tried to use my original download link in my order (which is for v1.4, dating back to april 2020) to no avail. All I get is a 404. So when I go to the aaronventure.onfastspring page there is supposed to be a download link there, except there isn't. I do see my orders for both IB and IW there, but no links at all.

What am I missing here? Sorry to bother you @aaronventure but I could use some guidance hehe. Cheers!


----------



## aaronventure

Contact — Aaron Venture







www.aaronventure.com


----------



## ThatEwanGuy

With the Infinite series is it better to use multiple instances of Kontakt or as few as possible?


----------



## Jamus

ThatEwanGuy said:


> With the Infinite series is it better to use multiple instances of Kontakt or as few as possible?


Kind of both.

I tested this out and on my machine i benefit most from having a few instruments per Kontakt instance, but not too many instruments per Kontakt instance.

I settled for a pretty standard setup, which is each family of instruments share an instance of Kontakt. All flutes in one instance, all oboes in another etc. Except in the case of some brass, tenor trombone and bass trombone share an instance and contrabass trombone and cimbasso share another.

I think maybe when you have too many Infinite instruments in one instance the amount of scripting going on per instrument chokes Kontakt up a bit? On the other hand when you have few enough instruments to let Kontakt breath it gets to the point of diminishing returns. I could be wrong about how it works but this is what i found works for me.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ThatEwanGuy said:


> With the Infinite series is it better to use multiple instances of Kontakt or as few as possible?


Usually, multiple instances is better for Infinite. The Infinite series is much more CPU heavy than it is RAM heavy and - at least a couple of years ago - using multiple instances of Kontakt would allow your DAW to distribute the instances / load across all the cores more evenly and efficiently than Kontakt itself could when using fewer instance.

The best would be to test it yourself and see what works the best for you and your computer.


----------



## mussnig

ThatEwanGuy said:


> With the Infinite series is it better to use multiple instances of Kontakt or as few as possible?


Usually: more Kontakt instances is most likely better CPU wise (since then the multicore handling is done via DAW) but it has a RAM toll, since each additional track and each additional Kontakt instance needs RAM. So you should make this decision depending on your system and on your workflow but with the Infinite series, the first bottleneck will usually be CPU and not RAM.

EDIT: @Jonathan Moray was faster.


----------



## gedlig

doctoremmet said:


> Silly question. I need to re-download my IB v1.6. I tried to use my original download link in my order (which is for v1.4, dating back to april 2020) to no avail. All I get is a 404. So when I go to the aaronventure.onfastspring page there is supposed to be a download link there, except there isn't. I do see my orders for both IB and IW there, but no links at all.
> 
> What am I missing here? Sorry to bother you @aaronventure but I could use some guidance hehe. Cheers!


After a long slumber, you revived the thread with a support question instead of an IS announcement


----------



## Piotrek K.

Hehe, whenever I see that avatar, that guy sitting on those stairs and staring into nothingness (and probably thinking what to eat for dinner), my hopes for strings release are getting higher. And then I remind myself that Aaron will release strings when he relase them and his forum activity has nothing to do with it.


----------



## I like music

Piotrek K. said:


> Hehe, whenever I see that avatar, that guy sitting on those stairs and staring into nothingness (and probably thinking what to eat for dinner), my hopes for strings release are getting higher. And then I remind myself that Aaron will release strings when he relase them and his forum activity has nothing to do with it.


I took the first letter of every post he's made in the last few months, and wrote it below. There is a clue in there:

"Bfosfrklmrehsbc"

I don't know what he's trying to communicate, but there's definitely something...


----------



## JimDiGritz

His name was Bfosfrklmrehsbc

His name was Bfosfrklmrehsbc

Project Mayhem 2022


----------



## h.s.j.e

Bfosfrklmrehsbc
=
"befr mr BFs, Sherlock."
=
"Before more Black Fridays, investigator."


----------



## aaronventure

h.s.j.e said:


> Bfosfrklmrehsbc
> =
> "befr mr BFs, Sherlock."
> =
> "Before more Black Fridays, investigator."


----------



## h.s.j.e

aaronventure said:


>


----------



## doctoremmet

h.s.j.e said:


>


There was a huge game going on in VR, and the person who won, won the keys to a demo environment with IS 1.0. Anyone seen @muziksculp lately?


----------



## Jamus

Who here is using a breath controller and/or Leap Motion to control Infinite? I'm sort of at a point where i want more CC's immediately available to me while performing.

Leap Motion looks the most appealing, but i do wonder how accurately it perceives hand gestures. Is it practical to have dynamics/pitch/vib depth/vib rate/flutter/growl all mapped to one hand?

The TEControl breath/bite seems like the most practical solution since it gives you extra controls via breath rather than deciding which hand or foot control to change.

Here's my thinking: Breath for dynamics/vibrato, Leap Motion for pitch/special articulations. Of course there are always my foot controls and aftertouch for anything else. Is it too much though? Less is more? More is more!?


----------



## sctaylorcan

Jamus said:


> Who here is using a breath controller and/or Leap Motion to control Infinite? I'm sort of at a point where i want more CC's immediately available to me while performing.
> 
> Leap Motion looks the most appealing, but i do wonder how accurately it perceives hand gestures. Is it practical to have dynamics/pitch/vib depth/vib rate/flutter/growl all mapped to one hand?
> 
> The TEControl breath/bite seems like the most practical solution since it gives you extra controls via breath rather than deciding which hand or foot control to change.
> 
> Here's my thinking: Breath for dynamics/vibrato, Leap Motion for pitch/special articulations. Of course there are always my foot controls and aftertouch for anything else. Is it too much though? Less is more? More is more!?


I'm using Leap-only with Infinite, using MidiPaw (Windows only) that I actually built for specifically the reason of working with Infinite, because I liked it so much  The combo is very responsive/accurate for the most part.

I find it practical to control maybe 4-5 things at once tops. I typically set L/R to dynamics, U/D for volume, Fore/Back for vib rate, rotate hand for Vib depth, closed fist for Growl. I can mostly make that go, and get pretty expressive playback. Occasionally I've wanted to add more (like maybe finger spread for legato threshold), but that's beyond my multitasking capability. I've often thought that adding a breath control for the reasons you state would be a benefit, but haven't made the jump.

Overall I find with Leap *way* better than using 2 or 3 sliders, for what it's worth.


----------



## aaronventure

Jamus said:


> Leap Motion looks the most appealing, but i do wonder how accurately it perceives hand gestures. Is it practical to have dynamics/pitch/vib depth/vib rate/flutter/growl all mapped to one hand?


It is. I have everything I need on LeapMotion. I have a different preset on MIDIPaw for when I need pitch control on roll instead of growl or flutter, and I just change accordingly. 



sctaylorcan said:


> MidiPaw


Hey Steve! Recently switched to this after doing a fresh system reinstall. I remember we talked earlier and I said I will eventually try it out. Kinda wish I did it sooner.

And wow man, it's awesome. Everything is clean and intuitive. Everything is there: response curves, smoothing, CC and motion range limiting. Stacking CCs on the same motion has never been easier, and creating different mapping presets and switching through them via Program Change from StreamDeck is a breeze. Also future-proof with 14-bit support.

There's the whole advanced Only When conditioning that I have not yet _properly _explored but from the looks of it, it can give an insane amount of control, e.g. use hand roll, tilt and/or yaw to dictate which CC# will the left-right motion send. Insane. You can basically bundle a bunch of different "presets" into a single moveset this way and switch between them instantly just by rotating your hand.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> It is. I have everything I need on LeapMotion. I have a different preset on MIDIPaw for when I need pitch control on roll instead of growl or flutter, and I just change accordingly.
> 
> 
> Hey Steve! Recently switched to this after doing a fresh system reinstall. I remember we talked earlier and I said I will eventually try it out. Kinda wish I did it sooner.
> 
> And wow man, it's awesome. Everything is clean and intuitive. Everything is there: response curves, smoothing, CC and motion range limiting. Stacking CCs on the same motion has never been easier, and creating different mapping presets and switching through them via Program Change from StreamDeck is a breeze. Also future-proof with 14-bit support.
> 
> There's the whole advanced Only When conditioning that I have not yet _properly _explored but from the looks of it, it can give an insane amount of control, e.g. use hand roll, tilt and/or yaw to dictate which CC# will the left-right motion send. Insane. You can basically bundle a bunch of different "presets" into a single moveset this way and switch between them instantly just by rotating your hand.


Good for spiccato and con sordino? 😉


----------



## Be_Sharp

i have a Leap Motion controller and TEC breath controller. I hardly ever use the breath controller. I pretty much always use the leap motion controller with GecoMidi for Infinite.... and i LOVE it.

I've been using a trashcan mac with mojave for a while, and my DAW is pro tools. However, my new Mac pro has arrived at the local dealer - they are installing my software and will deliver it to me next week. I believe it will be running Monterey and I'm a bit concerned that my leap motion won't work!


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> Good for spiccato and con sordino? 😉


I praise your efforts to spare our wallets by daring to ask a +1 month question.


----------



## JimDiGritz

Be_Sharp said:


> i have a Leap Motion controller and TEC breath controller. I hardly ever use the breath controller. I pretty much always use the leap motion controller with GecoMidi for Infinite.... and i LOVE it.
> 
> I've been using a trashcan mac with mojave for a while, and my DAW is pro tools. However, my new Mac pro has arrived at the local dealer - they are installing my software and will deliver it to me next week. I believe it will be running Monterey and I'm a bit concerned that my leap motion won't work!


I know this is getting a bit off topic but I have a Leap controller from 2013 and after seeing it mentioned on here I tried to use it however I haven't been able to get it working on my PC. 

I remember it was working back then. I've tried downloading all the apps from the terribly obtuse leap website but it just isn't recognised... Any ideas???


----------



## doctoremmet

JimDiGritz said:


> I know this is getting a bit off topic but I have a Leap controller from 2013 and after seeing it mentioned on here I tried to use it however I haven't been able to get it working on my PC.
> 
> I remember it was working back then. I've tried downloading all the apps from the terribly obtuse leap website but it just isn't recognised... Any ideas???


You need MidiPaw









MidiPaw - Leap Motion MIDI Expression and Control - MidiPaw


MidiPaw - Leap Motion MIDI Expression and Control - MidiPaw




www.midipaw.com


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

ThatEwanGuy said:


> With the Infinite series is it better to use multiple instances of Kontakt or as few as possible?


just do multiple instances because then you can freeze them if needed.


----------



## Denkii

aaronventure said:


> It is. I have everything I need on LeapMotion. I have a different preset on MIDIPaw for when I need pitch control on roll instead of growl or flutter, and I just change accordingly.
> 
> 
> Hey Steve! Recently switched to this after doing a fresh system reinstall. I remember we talked earlier and I said I will eventually try it out. Kinda wish I did it sooner.
> 
> And wow man, it's awesome. Everything is clean and intuitive. Everything is there: response curves, smoothing, CC and motion range limiting. Stacking CCs on the same motion has never been easier, and creating different mapping presets and switching through them via Program Change from StreamDeck is a breeze. Also future-proof with 14-bit support.
> 
> There's the whole advanced Only When conditioning that I have not yet _properly _explored but from the looks of it, it can give an insane amount of control, e.g. use hand roll, tilt and/or yaw to dictate which CC# will the left-right motion send. Insane. You can basically bundle a bunch of different "presets" into a single moveset this way and switch between them instantly just by rotating your hand.


Feel free to share your setting presets


----------



## Jamus

Officially requesting recorders in future IW expansion 😁


----------



## aaronventure

Jamus said:


> Officially requesting recorders in future IW expansion 😁


And they are officially coming (no ETA). Recordings are yet to take place so if you have any details or specifics you wish to let me know of, now's a great time.


----------



## doctoremmet

For marketing purposes, please let this remarkable musician be the player, or at least send her a review copy:


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> And they are officially coming (no ETA). Recordings are yet to take place so if you have any details or specifics you wish to let me know of, now's a great time.


Finally I will be able to do a mockup of this masterpiece:


----------



## mussnig

DANIELE said:


> Finally I will be able to do a mockup of this masterpiece:



Can't believe I just watched the whole video 😅


----------



## doctoremmet

doctoremmet said:


> For marketing purposes, please let this remarkable musician be the player, or at least send her a review copy:



God I love Sarah. What a nice person. And such musicality. Watching her present always gives me a happiness boost.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Finally I will be able to do a mockup of this masterpiece:



Absolutely killed me that has


----------



## Mikro93

aaronventure said:


> And they are officially coming (no ETA). Recordings are yet to take place so if you have any details or specifics you wish to let me know of, now's a great time.


Soprano, alto, tenor, basset or bass would be amazing  growls and flutters will be appreciated for contemporary music, but I believe these are modeled? 
I also love what can be done with a Paetzold recorder, if you ever get a chance. 

I would also suggest whistles, high and low. Although that would require taps and cuts and rolls to be possible, which might be cumbersome given IW's flow.


----------



## Jamus

doctoremmet said:


> For marketing purposes, please let this remarkable musician be the player, or at least send her a review


Haha Sarah is the reason i'm so into recorders these days. Before her videos, regrettably, i had never considered the recorder an instrument so much as a child's toy. Oh how wrong i was..


----------



## doctoremmet

Team Recorder FTW


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

aaronventure said:


> And they are officially coming (no ETA). Recordings are yet to take place so if you have any details or specifics you wish to let me know of, now's a great time.


Any plans to sample Wagner Tubas for Infinite Brass? Pretty please?


----------



## LatinXCombo

Jamus said:


> Haha Sarah is the reason i'm so into recorders these days. Before her videos, regrettably, i had never considered the recorder an instrument so much as a child's toy. Oh how wrong i was..


You make the music! The instrument is just a tool - any tool.


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> And they are officially coming (no ETA). Recordings are yet to take place so if you have any details or specifics you wish to let me know of, now's a great time.


Do you have a list of ethnic winds already planned? I think I recall them being mentioned, but don't recall seeing specifics.


----------



## Jamus

It seems i've opened up the floodgates of Infinite requests. Soz, not soz. :D


----------



## BigMal

doctoremmet said:


> You need MidiPaw
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MidiPaw - Leap Motion MIDI Expression and Control - MidiPaw
> 
> 
> MidiPaw - Leap Motion MIDI Expression and Control - MidiPaw
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.midipaw.com



I was so happy to see this, as I never really use my Leap Motion and Geco - it feels too inaccurate, compared to my other means of midi control (either my breath controller, expression pedal or X-Touch), so I was hoping Midipaw might bring this thing to life for me. Unfortunately, it's Windows only, because there hasn't been development of the Mac drivers for Leap Motion, in contrast to Windows. So, that sucks! :(

Anything recommendations about how to improve on Geco for Mac?


----------



## doctoremmet

BigMal said:


> I was so happy to see this, as I never really use my Leap Motion and Geco - it feels too inaccurate, compared to my other means of midi control (either my breath controller, expression pedal or X-Touch), so I was hoping Midipaw might bring this thing to life for me. Unfortunately, it's Windows only, because there hasn't been development of the Mac drivers for Leap Motion, in contrast to Windows. So, that sucks! :(
> 
> Anything recommendations about how to improve on Geco for Mac?


Ah that’s a shame; sorry to hear!


----------



## Juulu

doctoremmet said:


> For marketing purposes, please let this remarkable musician be the player, or at least send her a review copy:



Lol never expected to find this here. I remember watching some of her videos before ultimately deciding to buy a soprano recorder. Haven't really used it as much as I thought I would though.


----------



## Saxer

Maybe interesting for the concert flute players out there: the Fliphead.
It's a recorder mouthpiece designed to replace the head of the concert flute.


----------



## Jamus

I have only just discovered Modartt, along with their modelled pianos, also has modelled harps, celestes, glocks, xylos, vibes and all manner of instruments. It's time to start ditching these cumbersome samples man. We all know they've been colluding with RAM manufacturers to steal our money anyway 💰🕵️‍♂️


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> I have only just discovered Modartt, along with their modelled pianos, also has modelled harps, celestes, glocks, xylos, vibes and all manner of instruments. It's time to start ditching these cumbersome samples man. We all know they've been colluding with RAM manufacturers to steal our money anyway 💰🕵️‍♂️


Got their trial. Smart model cos more I'll have to actually buy them!


----------



## rockrvilt

Another mockup, Infinite only for woodwinds and brass  Decided to do Prokofievs - Dance of the knights this time as I'm a big fan of Prokofievs music 🫀


----------



## Jamus

Look, here's the thing.. I updated my EW Hollywood stuff to the new Opus edition so my pockets are a little light. I'm going to need you to push back Infinite Strings a couple months. Cheers Aaron!

Sorry everyone


----------



## I like music

Jamus said:


> Look, here's the thing.. I updated my EW Hollywood stuff to the new Opus edition so my pockets are a little light. I'm going to need you to push back Infinite Strings a couple months. Cheers Aaron!
> 
> Sorry everyone


-1 just to spite you


----------



## Russell Anderson

Yeah, I just spent some money on really important software I needed in order for my computer to run, Pulsar Mu and Smart:Limit, and Softube Harmonics and MJUC and PSP Saturator and Impressor and Ozone 9. That’s what the tech support guy said, anyway, 🙀🙌👊 had to keep the computer running

nah, seriously I’ve actually gotten pretty depressed and on an insane sleep schedule, I really need a new job. I am self-medicating with plugins the past week. Also, things are really cheap on KVR and you should and shouldn’t go there to save money

You can release Infinite Strings whenever you want, I will probably buy it. In earnest though, in earnest. Don’t let the pseudo-drunk sleep deprivation verbiage of this post cloud the sincerity of my desire to support Aaron’s awesome efforts to end the relevance of knowing how to play a woodwind instrument, by far my favorite libraries.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I’ve noticed some… funky sound in the Tuba/contra. Is it just me? I feel like I really need to mind the mic positions and the processing, I wonder if these instruments are pushing the Infinite IR method to the extreme a bit given their range and maybe dynamic. These more than any other Infinite instrument by far have that “overdriving a convolver” sound, where French horns and woodwinds sound like silk these ones sound a bit closer on the spectrum toward pitch-bent kazoos with reverb. I say that with the most warm love inside, I honestly think there’s a way I could solve the problem I’m having right now if I just used some better technique. Right now that’s layering with AROOF, …honestly layering Infinite with other brass is the coolest thing, it’s so huge and natural sounding


----------



## Bee_Abney

Russell Anderson said:


> Yeah, I just spent some money on really important software I needed in order for my computer to run, Pulsar Mu and Smart:Limit, and Softube Harmonics and MJUC and PSP Saturator and Impressor and Ozone 9. That’s what the tech support guy said, anyway, 🙀🙌👊 had to keep the computer running
> 
> nah, seriously I’ve actually gotten pretty depressed and on an insane sleep schedule, I really need a new job. I am self-medicating with plugins the past week. Also, things are really cheap on KVR and you should and shouldn’t go there to save money
> 
> You can release Infinite Strings whenever you want, I will probably buy it. In earnest though, in earnest. Don’t let the pseudo-drunk sleep deprivation verbiage of this post cloud the sincerity of my desire to support Aaron’s awesome efforts to end the relevance of knowing how to play a woodwind instrument, by far my favorite libraries.



I hope things start looking up for you soon. Insomnia is no joke, nor depression. Though, self medication with plugins was giggleworthy. Before, health wise, I had to stop working, I was going without sleep for up to three days in a row and barely able to eat. Spending thousands of pounds on Zynaptiq and Sonnox cured all that!! (Hoping for sponsorship.)


----------



## shawnsingh

Russell Anderson said:


> pitch-bent kazoos with reverb


I think this is what Rimsky Korsakov wrote about tubas in his orchestration book, too.

do you have an audio example of what you're hearing?


----------



## Russell Anderson

shawnsingh said:


> do you have an audio example of what you're hearing?


If I have time before going into work tonight, sure, otherwise in the next few days.



Bee_Abney said:


> I hope things start looking up for you soon. Insomnia is no joke, nor depression. Though, self medication with plugins was giggleworthy. Before, health wise, I had to stop working, I was going without sleep for up to three days in a row and barely able to eat. Spending thousands of pounds on Zynaptiq and Sonnox cured all that!! (Hoping for sponsorship.)


Thank you, yeah… I need to get into some better cycles. I fell asleep in the middle of thumbing this reply out last night lol… for the best

I’m curious, since you’re gunning for an Artist Affiliate status with Zynaptiq… how do you/did you find Intensity? I demo’d it yesterday and was immediately blown away by how bad it sounded. _*UNTIL *_I tried it at 10% wet and 10% intensified, and then I thought, “this sounds weird, it’s like a spectral boost and I can’t tell if it sounds weird because there is no phase change a la some kind of RX-like method of boosting, or if it sounds weird because it is phasing or doing some kind of weird upward compression/freq-specific parallel or something”.

Either way, I couldn’t get a similar effect with filters, and I’m going to try demoing it again today/very soon on some strings to see if it can give me some kind of magical air that has so far eluded me. There’s a good deal on it _somewhere_ but I’m totally ready to completely ignore this plugin, it just might have its use in one specific area, or more, or nowhere. How have you found it?


----------



## Bee_Abney

Russell Anderson said:


> If I have time before going into work tonight, sure, otherwise in the next few days.
> 
> 
> Thank you, yeah… I need to get into some better cycles. I fell asleep in the middle of thumbing this reply out last night lol… for the best
> 
> I’m curious, since you’re gunning for an Artist Affiliate status with Zynaptiq… how do you/did you find Intensity? I demo’d it yesterday and was immediately blown away by how bad it sounded. _*UNTIL *_I tried it at 10% wet and 10% intensified, and then I thought, “this sounds weird, it’s like a spectral boost and I can’t tell if it sounds weird because there is no phase change a la some kind of RX-like method of boosting, or if it sounds weird because it is phasing or doing some kind of weird upward compression/freq-specific parallel or something”.
> 
> Either way, I couldn’t get a similar effect with filters, and I’m going to try demoing it again today/very soon on some strings to see if it can give me some kind of magical air that has so far eluded me. There’s a good deal on it _somewhere_ but I’m totally ready to completely ignore this plugin, it just might have its use in one specific area, or more, or nowhere. How have you found it?


I love Intensity, but it doesn't work on everything and, yes, subtle use is likely for the best. There is definitely EQ/filtering, but it applies it by examining the frequencies of the input sound and has algorithms for applying changed to it to boost the most characterful/distinctive information in the sound. So, yes, it is spectral. While it doesn't use compression, you can get somewhat similar results through careful (surgical) EQ and compression. Because Intensity does so much of its work through its own internal detection and metering, it is hard to know exactly what is happening or to control or refine it - other than dealing up or down.

When I first demoed it, I decided not to buy it, because I loved how it sounded and was worried that I'd overuse it and not learn how to achieve similar enhancements with tools I had more control over. Several months later, it went on sale again and I bought it. Since then, I use it sparingly; often when I try it, I'll decide that it isn't doing what I want. But when it does work, it is - to me - a pretty wonderful tonal enhancer. I find it works well on soprano-like sounds - clear(-ish) and with more in the higher frequencies.

Note that it is intended that it should boost the volume overall but that this can be counteracted. As an overall volume boost and spectral tool, it works as a specialist enhancer that tailors its effects to the sound source.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Bee_Abney said:


> I love Intensity, but it doesn't work on everything and, yes, subtle use is likely for the best. There is definitely EQ/filtering, but it applies it by examining the frequencies of the input sound and has algorithms for applying changed to it to boost the most characterful/distinctive information in the sound. So, yes, it is spectral. While it doesn't use compression, you can get somewhat similar results through careful (surgical) EQ and compression. Because Intensity does so much of its work through its own internal detection and metering, it is hard to know exactly what is happening or to control or refine it - other than dealing up or down.
> 
> When I first demoed it, I decided not to buy it, because I loved how it sounded and was worried that I'd overuse it and not learn how to achieve similar enhancements with tools I had more control over. Several months later, it went on sale again and I bought it. Since then, I use it sparingly; often when I try it, I'll decide that it isn't doing what I want. But when it does work, it is - to me - a pretty wonderful tonal enhancer. I find it works well on soprano-like sounds - clear(-ish) and with more in the higher frequencies.
> 
> Note that it is intended that it should boost the volume overall but that this can be counteracted. As an overall volume boost and spectral tool, it works as a specialist enhancer that tailors its effects to the sound source.


Yeah, it’s like a less snazzy-looking and more space-looking Gullfoss in its action. Kind of a use-it-or-don’t albeit maybe less dynamic betterizer. Cool you’re mentioning soprano material as that’s exactly what I was thinking of trying, basically as a strings/woodwinds “air” tool. Satin already does so nicely on Infinite flute I find, less so on strings (I could stand to experiment a bit more though)… Intensity might be good on the strings. We will see.


----------



## Bee_Abney

Russell Anderson said:


> Yeah, it’s like a less snazzy-looking and more space-looking Gullfoss in its action. Kind of a use-it-or-don’t albeit maybe less dynamic betterizer. Cool you’re mentioning soprano material as that’s exactly what I was thinking of trying, basically as a strings/woodwinds “air” tool. Satin already does so nicely on Infinite flute I find, less so on strings… Intensity might be good on the strings. We will see.


It's worth a try! The bonus here is that you win either way - if you like it, you've got a new tool; if you don't, you have saved more money towards buying Infinite Strings. Some day.


----------



## Trash Panda

Russell Anderson said:


> I’ve noticed some… funky sound in the Tuba/contra. Is it just me? I feel like I really need to mind the mic positions and the processing, I wonder if these instruments are pushing the Infinite IR method to the extreme a bit given their range and maybe dynamic. These more than any other Infinite instrument by far have that “overdriving a convolver” sound, where French horns and woodwinds sound like silk these ones sound a bit closer on the spectrum toward pitch-bent kazoos with reverb. I say that with the most warm love inside, I honestly think there’s a way I could solve the problem I’m having right now if I just used some better technique. Right now that’s layering with AROOF, …honestly layering Infinite with other brass is the coolest thing, it’s so huge and natural sounding


I would hazard a guess that you're referring to the sound that comes out when you exceed 64 or so on the mod wheel? @aaronventure has mentioned in the past that the mod wheel should be thought of as the amount of air being used and not necessarily the dynamic marking (pp, ff, etc.) and that the tuba and contrabass tuba specifically should rarely go over 64 outside of very brief moments as no human realistically has that much air they can push through one of these instruments.


----------



## Bollen

Trash Panda said:


> I would hazard a guess that you're referring to the sound that comes out when you exceed 64 or so on the mod wheel? @aaronventure has mentioned in the past that the mod wheel should be thought of as the amount of air being used and not necessarily the dynamic marking (pp, ff, etc.) and that the tuba and contrabass tuba specifically should rarely go over 64 outside of very brief moments as no human realistically has that much air they can push through one of these instruments.


This is also so true for a huge number of libraries...


----------



## Russell Anderson

Bee_Abney said:


> It's worth a try! The bonus here is that you win either way - if you like it, you've got a new tool; if you don't, you have saved more money towards buying Infinite Strings. Some day.


Exactly!


Trash Panda said:


> I would hazard a guess that you're referring to the sound that comes out when you exceed 64 or so on the mod wheel? @aaronventure has mentioned in the past that the mod wheel should be thought of as the amount of air being used and not necessarily the dynamic marking (pp, ff, etc.) and that the tuba and contrabass tuba specifically should rarely go over 64 outside of very brief moments as no human realistically has that much air they can push through one of these instruments.


I even knew that and that’s probably exactly what that is. What might be causing an overdriven convolver sound? Maybe it’s


Russell Anderson said:


> The higher dynamic levels of Infinite series instruments are absolutely at the high dynamics, beyond where you want to be most of the time.


Moral of the story:

PRACTICE

and sleep


----------



## lljfnord

Shameless plug, but with some payback for Aaron:

I've got a new interview posted on the Level With Emily podcast, in which I give props to Aaron Venture and Infinite Brass / Infinite Woodwinds. Please give it a listen!









Level 167: Lee Jackson (Duke Nukem 3D, Rise of the Triad)


Composer Lee Jackson’s legacy in the world of game music includes the theme song for Duke Nukem 3Dcalled “Grabbag”. Lee talks about writing music for Duke Nukem 3D and other Duke projects, as…




www.levelwithemily.com


----------



## DANIELE

lljfnord said:


> Shameless plug, but with some payback for Aaron:
> 
> I've got a new interview posted on the Level With Emily podcast, in which I give props to Aaron Venture and Infinite Brass / Infinite Woodwinds. Please give it a listen!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Level 167: Lee Jackson (Duke Nukem 3D, Rise of the Triad)
> 
> 
> Composer Lee Jackson’s legacy in the world of game music includes the theme song for Duke Nukem 3Dcalled “Grabbag”. Lee talks about writing music for Duke Nukem 3D and other Duke projects, as…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.levelwithemily.com


Hail to the king baby!!


----------



## Juulu

For Infinite Brass owners, does anyone have any tips on how to get the lower dynamics to shine more in the mix. The other day I was watching a video of someone who uses SM brass and the sound of the horns was very pronounced throughout the entire dynamic range. I realized that whenever I'm playing IB, below about CC#70-80 in dynamics, things get really quiet. I thought about using a compressor but I'm not very good at mixing.


----------



## Trash Panda

Juulu said:


> For Infinite Brass owners, does anyone have any tips on how to get the lower dynamics to shine more in the mix. The other day I was watching a video of someone who uses SM brass and the sound of the horns was very pronounced throughout the entire dynamic range. I realized that whenever I'm playing IB, below about CC#70-80 in dynamics, things get really quiet. I thought about using a compressor but I'm not very good at mixing.


There is a dynamic range slider that will make the quieter parts louder as you turn down CC1.

If you need full control, you can set it to 0 so CC1 only changes the timbre and you can use CC11 for the volume level.


----------



## oceanic714

Happy Friday y'all!

Here's a quick attempt at some Aaron Venture big band.


----------



## Juulu

Trash Panda said:


> There is a dynamic range slider that will make the quieter parts louder as you turn down CC1.
> 
> If you need full control, you can set it to 0 so CC1 only changes the timbre and you can use CC11 for the volume level.


Wow, can't believe I hadn't tried that yet haha. I just assumed that lowering that would decrease loudness or something, but I guess it's just making everything more even.


----------



## Bee_Abney

oceanic714 said:


> Happy Friday y'all!
> 
> Here's a quick attempt at some Aaron Venture big band.



It sounds so alive, like there are genuinely different people playing each instrument.

Aspects of the sound strike me as a little unusual for this type of music. But rather than sounding classical, it reminds me of a British-style brass band playing a jazz number rather than an American-style jazz big band. I'm not sure how that might be addressed, if it was something that you would want to address. My guess would be a mixture of spacialisation, EQ and orchestration. Either way, it sounds brilliant and not wrong in any way as it is.


----------



## Trash Panda

Bee_Abney said:


> It sounds so alive, like there are genuinely different people playing each instrument.
> 
> Aspects of the sound strike me as a little unusual for this type of music. But rather than sounding classical, it reminds me of a British-style brass band playing a jazz number rather than an American-style jazz big band. I'm not sure how that might be addressed, if it was something that you would want to address. My guess would be a mixture of spacialisation, EQ and orchestration. Either way, it sounds brilliant and not wrong in any way as it is.


I think raising the velocity to sharpen the note attacks would probably do it. Overall I like it!


----------



## AlainTH

Bee_Abney said:


> It sounds so alive, like there are genuinely different people playing each instrument.
> 
> Aspects of the sound strike me as a little unusual for this type of music. But rather than sounding classical, it reminds me of a British-style brass band playing a jazz number rather than an American-style jazz big band. I'm not sure how that might be addressed, if it was something that you would want to address. My guess would be a mixture of spacialisation, EQ and orchestration. Either way, it sounds brilliant and not wrong in any way as it is.


Or use a better library for that, Glory Days of Orchestra tools wil sound more realistic.
Bee-Abney, your real good work desserve it... 
bravo.


----------



## oceanic714

Bee_Abney said:


> It sounds so alive, like there are genuinely different people playing each instrument.
> 
> Aspects of the sound strike me as a little unusual for this type of music. But rather than sounding classical, it reminds me of a British-style brass band playing a jazz number rather than an American-style jazz big band. I'm not sure how that might be addressed, if it was something that you would want to address. My guess would be a mixture of spacialisation, EQ and orchestration. Either way, it sounds brilliant and not wrong in any way as it is.


Thanks for the kind words!

I would definitely put more time into quantization if I were to continue working on the track. The swing feels a little stiff, but then again swinging is notoriously difficult to perform well.

I would also probably eq just a little on the trumpets/trombones, and focus more on accented notes. The feeling of different people playing is definitely due to the detuning parameters that Infinite has


----------



## Bee_Abney

AlainTH said:


> Or use a better library for that, Glory Days of Orchestra tools wil sound more realistic.
> Bee-Abney, your real good work desserve it...
> bravo.


Thank you very much! Yes, Glory Days does sound wonderful - not that I have it! One day, perhaps...

I love hearing what other people can achieve with their virtual instruments. It really is amazing.


----------



## Duncan Formosa

Just finished this piece using infinite brass and woodwinds. So happy with the result. The only time I didn't use infinite was for the flutes just because I couldn't get the right sound I was looking for but other than that, writing this was a breeze thanks to these libraries.

I just wish infinite strings was out by now cause probably writing the string section because I constantly feel I'm fighting with my string library in terms of performance. Infinite has been a game changer just because I'm not fighting with the libraries as much, and probably when IS comes out, there will be no fighting at all!


----------



## JimDiGritz

Bee_Abney said:


> It sounds so alive, like there are genuinely different people playing each instrument.
> 
> Aspects of the sound strike me as a little unusual for this type of music. But rather than sounding classical, it reminds me of a British-style brass band playing a jazz number rather than an American-style jazz big band. I'm not sure how that might be addressed, if it was something that you would want to address. My guess would be a mixture of spacialisation, EQ and orchestration. Either way, it sounds brilliant and not wrong in any way as it is.


I agree sounds really good but yes - the attacks seem a little slow to my ears.


----------



## LatinXCombo

oceanic714 said:


> Thanks for the kind words!
> 
> I would definitely put more time into quantization if I were to continue working on the track. The swing feels a little stiff, but then again swinging is notoriously difficult to perform well.
> 
> I would also probably eq just a little on the trumpets/trombones, and focus more on accented notes. The feeling of different people playing is definitely due to the detuning parameters that Infinite has


Agree - the sound is there. Swing needs work (also needs percussion!) but the bones are good, right?

Um...if you're not gonna do anything with it...mind sharing the files? I have Infinite Brass, but haven't done much with it yet.... I'd love to have a crack at continuing this!


----------



## oceanic714

LatinXCombo said:


> Agree - the sound is there. Swing needs work (also needs percussion!) but the bones are good, right?
> 
> Um...if you're not gonna do anything with it...mind sharing the files? I have Infinite Brass, but haven't done much with it yet.... I'd love to have a crack at continuing this!


Sent you a pm!

They can definitely swing. It will require a bit of finessing with note placement and such.


----------



## aetherborn7

Hey guys, I just wanted to step in and ask if there have been any updates on the Infinite Strings release. I've got the rest of the collections but was wondering. This is not me rushing it. Just looking for an update. Thanks.


----------



## doctoremmet

aetherborn7 said:


> Hey guys, I just wanted to step in and ask if there have been any updates on the Infinite Strings release. I've got the rest of the collections but was wondering. This is not me rushing it. Just looking for an update. Thanks.


No there has not.

Edit: well it didn't take Aaron long to ninja me


----------



## aaronventure

aetherborn7 said:


> if there have been any updates on the Infinite Strings


They're drawing it.


----------



## doctoremmet

Looks like they're done drawing though:






Good thing I was (also) saving up for Pacific Strings. Glad to pick up Infinite Strings even before they get released


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> They're drawing it.


You draw a bow just before you loose an arrow, in archery. Going by that reading of "bow" release is imminent. 

Do string players draw their bows? Maybe just before the music starts? In which case, release is also imminent.


----------



## doctoremmet

Maybe they (Native Instruments evil corporate M&A bozos) are drawing an AV stock takeover contract with their own blood?


----------



## I like music

doctoremmet said:


> Maybe they (Native Instruments evil corporate M&A bozos) are drawing an AV stock takeover contract with their own blood?


Haha. 

But seriously, I don't have a clue what he said/meant


----------



## aetherborn7

aaronventure said:


> They're drawing it.


I don't understand. Is this a joke or something that's going over my head? <- actual question not sarcasm.


----------



## Piotrek K.

aaronventure said:


> They're drawing it.


Guys, it's a clue! Let's dissect!

Who are "they"? -> Aliens?
What "drawing" means? -> Aliens?
Why he's still on those stairs?


----------



## Christianus

Piotrek K. said:


> Guys, it's a clue! Let's dissect!
> 
> Who are "they"? -> Aliens?
> What "drawing" means? -> Aliens?
> Why he's still on those stairs?


Maybe IS will also be drawing software. He obviously doesn't know when to stop. If there is enough mention of IS (+1), he will have plenty of time for IS to eventually be able to bake bread and beat butter. Then no one will be able to complain that it is not a library of bread and butter. 

PS: I apologize for the lack of English


----------



## Piotrek K.

Christianus said:


> Then no one will be able to complain that it is not a library of bread and butter.


----------



## FireGS

Did anyone seriously think Infinite Strings was going to be a virtual instrument library?

I totally expected it to be a two-and-a-half hour long philosophy webinar about string theory and multiverse concepts. 

Infinite... Strings...


----------



## decredis

FireGS said:


> Did anyone seriously think Infinite Strings was going to be a virtual instrument library?
> 
> I totally expected it to be a two-and-a-half hour long philosophy webinar about string theory and multiverse concepts.
> 
> Infinite... Strings...


Correct, except we will then have to wait another few years for the "renormalization" plug-in that will make the infinities in the string theory instrument usable.


----------



## FireGS

decredis said:


> Correct, except we will then have to wait another few years for the "renormalization" plug-in that will make the infinities in the string theory instrument usable.


I think that would depend on which timeline we end up inside.


----------



## Denkii

Infinite are the strings with which Aaron pulls us puppets.


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure was it fun, just to drop that cryptic line, and then disappear?


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> Infinite are the strings with which Aaron pulls us puppets.


If you want more strings and more versions of yourself waiting, there’s this app. I split the universe on numerous occassions, just to watch y’all suffer.











Universe Splitter | Aerfish







www.aerfish.com


----------



## decredis

A drawstring is a thread that pulls fabric together, so I choose to read it as meaning that it's all "coming together" and release is imminent


----------



## mussnig

doctoremmet said:


> If you want more strings and more versions of yourself waiting, there’s this app. I split the universe on numerous occassions, just to watch y’all suffer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Universe Splitter | Aerfish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aerfish.com


So can one also use this app to figure out if one is in the universe in which IS is still on track to be released in 2022? Asking for a friend ...


----------



## doctoremmet

mussnig said:


> So can one also use this app to figure out if one is in the universe in which IS is still on track to be released in 2022? Asking for a friend ...


Unfortunately: no. This is called Infinity’s Uncertainty Principle, or Venture’s Cat.


----------



## Duncan Formosa

Every day I check this thread hoping to know more about IS. Then I see Aaron has posted, I get excited. Then I see it's nothing but riddles like Dumbledore giving advice to Harry, then I'm sad. Then I try writing music with a string library that's not IS, then I'm depressed.


----------



## doctoremmet

Your emotions seem tied to the (non) existence of certain sample libraries and fora that speculate about them. Time for a walk.


----------



## Gauss

I forgot to post this on April Fools.


----------



## Trash Panda

Gauss said:


> I forgot to post this on April Fools.


Add a ‘/‘ between the first set of twos and you’d have the ultimate troll.


----------



## StormBlåst

Hi guys!

Just pulled the trigger on both IW and IB. Best decision ever! It's so enjoyable to be able to play everything, these libraries just work!

My first test out of the box


----------



## aetherborn7

StormBlåst said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Just pulled the trigger on both IW and IB. Best decision ever! It's so enjoyable to be able to play everything, these libraries just work!
> 
> My first test out of the box


There's no lie here. I love the series. Got mine last spring (Both of them). I just love the ease of use. It's just difficult trying to find the right strings to go with them. I like Sample Modeling's strings as they are about closest to what I expect from IS when it comes out. Mainly, because the playability is about as good. The sound isn't as emotive though. Like IB feels very emotive in particular. I want a really nice string library to go with it all and bring it together. 

That said, I would be fine just using my Jaeger and Nucleus percussion together to go with the other Infinite Series stuff.


----------



## Bee_Abney

StormBlåst said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Just pulled the trigger on both IW and IB. Best decision ever! It's so enjoyable to be able to play everything, these libraries just work!
> 
> My first test out of the box


I listened to that with much nodding of the head and swaying. It has a lot of life in it!


----------



## jamwerks

I had a dream about a (major) Easter sale on IWW's!! Just wishful thinking?


----------



## Bee_Abney

jamwerks said:


> I had a dream about a (major) Easter sale on IWW's!! Just wishful thinking?


Or possibly a view into a parallel universe or divergent timeline. Or even a peak in the mind of Mr Venture.


----------



## Jamus

StormBlåst said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Just pulled the trigger on both IW and IB. Best decision ever! It's so enjoyable to be able to play everything, these libraries just work!
> 
> My first test out of the box


Welcome to the family. We will not stop until all assimilate!


----------



## StormBlåst

Hi guys!
I recently finished my first composition featuring Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass.
At the start, my thought was to make a short "action"-themed test piece but the I got off a little tangent and made it a full-length symphonic piece instead, which surprisingly presented itself in quasi-sonata form(At least to my understanding) 😅

The whole piece is based on two simple themes and I tried to develop those to as best of my abilities, and I made timestamps for the YouTube video so maybe it's easier to follow.

Any criticism would be appreciated since I am fairly new to the orchestral game 🙂

Libraries:
Woodwinds = Infinite only
Brass = Infinite only
Perc = True Strike II
Strings = CSS/Berlin Strings
Harp = CineHarp


----------



## Trash Panda

StormBlåst said:


> Any criticism would be appreciated since I am fairly new to the orchestral game 🙂


Could have fooled me.  

Great composition and nothing is jumping out as problematic to me upon first listen.


----------



## StormBlåst

Trash Panda said:


> Could have fooled me.
> 
> Great composition and nothing is jumping out as problematic to me upon first listen.


Thanks, that's good to hear!
I have incorporated some orchestral elements into my Metal music writing for a while now but never until about two years ago did I become more interested in writing purely orchestral music. And then I found out about Mike Verta's Masterclasses which really put me in the loop and changed the game for me. Since then I've been really studying rigorously composing and orchestration and listening to A LOT of classical and film music, but still never quite managed to write any complete works until quite recently.

But I have to say that I really enjoy the process now with these Infinite Series WW and Brass. They just work! 😁


----------



## Ethan Toavs

StormBlåst said:


> Hi guys!
> I recently finished my first composition featuring Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass.
> At the start, my thought was to make a short "action"-themed test piece but the I got off a little tangent and made it a full-length symphonic piece instead, which surprisingly presented itself in quasi-sonata form(At least to my understanding) 😅
> 
> The whole piece is based on two simple themes and I tried to develop those to as best of my abilities, and I made timestamps for the YouTube video so maybe it's easier to follow.
> 
> Any criticism would be appreciated since I am fairly new to the orchestral game 🙂


This is some outstanding work - A wonderful showcase of both the Infinite libraries and your own compositional prowess! I am quite surprised to see that you are "fairly new" to all of this. Very nicely done!


----------



## Jamus

StormBlåst said:


>



How long did it take you? It's a pretty detailed piece. When i mess around with developing themes i always get carried away to the point of creating a mess that doesn't flow, and then i cannot decide what the vibe should be so i can't decide which to keep and which to chuck. How does one avoid such mayhem!?


----------



## El Buhdai

Jamus said:


> How long did it take you? It's a pretty detailed piece. When i mess around with developing themes i always get carried away to the point of creating a mess that doesn't flow, and then i cannot decide what the vibe should be so i can't decide which to keep and which to chuck. How does one avoid such mayhem!?


You either choose the best variations on your main idea (which I don't like doing), or you make the song longer. I find for me that the sweet spot for me is 6 minutes per song. I even made an EDM song that was 6 minutes long, which is not good form in that genre. 6 minutes is long enough for me to get out most of the best variations of my main idea, while still forcing me to commit to making the song succinct.


----------



## StormBlåst

Ethan Toavs said:


> This is some outstanding work - A wonderful showcase of both the Infinite libraries and your own compositional prowess! I am quite surprised to see that you are "fairly new" to all of this. Very nicely done!


Thank You so much for your kind words!


----------



## StormBlåst

Jamus said:


> How long did it take you? It's a pretty detailed piece. When i mess around with developing themes i always get carried away to the point of creating a mess that doesn't flow, and then i cannot decide what the vibe should be so i can't decide which to keep and which to chuck. How does one avoid such mayhem!?


I would say it took me a total of one and a half weeks. But there were a couple of those "around the clock" days when I did nothing but compose from early morning to late evening.

I think the vibe should come from You within and the thematic material should follow it. So try to think first about what you want to say, what your piece should tell, and maybe what emotions it could provoke. Or that's usually what I do

Even with this piece, before hitting any notes on the piano, I thought that I want to write something in an "action" style with forwarding motion and with a sense of hopelessness and ominousness, I was really influenced by the sadness of current world events. Then It's just a matter of trial and error to come up with something that represents that thought. In this case, it was the simple A theme motif which I then started to develop and go with it to different places. The B theme came up a little later

And sometimes the piece lets itself to a different path than originally intended but I always try to stay true to that first instinct or that first "thought".

But I'm still learning myself and it's always a bit of struggle for me also


----------



## Jamus

StormBlåst said:


> And sometimes the piece lets itself to a different path than originally intended but I always try to stay true to that first instinct or that first "thought".


This is where i fail because today i'm action guy but tomorrow i'm drone with dissonant chords guy hahaha

Did you have a piano sketch in place first or does it go straight from your head to the orchestra? This is where Infinite's playability comes in for me. It helps a great deal to play a flute line on a flute so my puny brain can properly grasp the idea 🙃


----------



## StormBlåst

Jamus said:


> This is where i fail because today i'm action guy but tomorrow i'm drone with dissonant chords guy hahaha
> 
> Did you have a piano sketch in place first or does it go straight from your head to the orchestra? This is where Infinite's playability comes in for me. It helps a great deal to play a flute line on a flute so my puny brain can properly grasp the idea 🙃


Yes! I always write on piano and orchestrate it later because I don't want to think about anything else than the music itself while I am writing. And when I orchestrate it, I try to stay as true as possible for my piano version, because that answers a lot of the orchestration questions already. And of course, I will add some flourishes, embellishments, and percussions but I try to be economic with them.
And while that may sound like I am a virtuosic piano player, I have to say that I'm not. Most of the time I have to drop the tempo to get something down or play one hand at a time. But it's a good practice!

For this piece, I composed a couple of the transition sections with orchestral sounds but all the main ideas and developments were composed with piano. That's because I wanted them really smooth and flowing and it's hard for me to judge it with piano sound cause it doesn't sustain so long.


----------



## sound team apk

Hi Infinite fans,

The Main Titles from Silverado got stuck in my head a few weeks ago, so I decided to try to mock it up using only IB for the brass. I've used IB in a lot of projects, but never entirely on its own or remotely to this extent. This theme has a pretty fun variety of articulations in two minutes. It's reached far beyond the point of diminishing returns, so here's where I got:

View attachment Silverado - Main Title (barely mixed draft) - Infinite Brass.mp3


Bear in mind that this was instrument practice, not mixing practice. I quickly gave up trying to match Newman Scoring Stage, and I've left in strings that are far too dark and receded compared to the original (the most glaring of several problems...).

I did better than I hoped and learned a lot in the process ... Still, when I compare my mock to the original (or to others' work posted in this thread), I see many, many areas to improve. For people who know this library well, here are my biggest questions:

"Thick" horns, especially with legato (see 0:40 and 0:50). Over time I got much better at executing these passages with IB, but the original is still thicker. Before I conclude it's time to saturate the heck out of it or layer in something else, any suggestions?
Sharp trombone shorts (0:45 especially, also 1:56 and 2:06). I've done ... not too badly ... but the original has a more raucous quality on the sharp attacks. I know even the IB 1.6 Trombones are still considered less successful than some of the other instruments, but is there something available (e.g., growl, or a lot of pitch bend) that I should use to thicken these attacks?
Some notes and caveats:

There are some quiet background sustains in the first half where I could have added more pitch drift and CC1 variation. I didn't write in any pitch bend anywhere, in fact, though I did dial down the pitch accuracy on some of the players.
IB is all Bersa ... mix mic 2? It's a lot more close mic than I've previously used. Then I applied Spaces's Newman IR. The result still doesn't sound much like the refence, so I just gave up at that point.
Otherwise there's no processing at all on IB -- or the track as a whole -- except Ozone on the master to bring it up to -1db and open up the highs a little bit.
If you choose to listen and provide feedback, thanks for your time!


----------



## El Buhdai

It seems we're in a sharing mood, so I'll throw my hat in the ring as well.

I have two little things to share. One is a snippet from a personal project, and the other is a loopable track I've made for a client of mine recently. Don't worry, I'm allow to share it lol.

All Brass & Woodwinds are from the esteemed Infinite Brass & Infinite Woodwinds.
Strings and Percussion are from the winner of the "Best Improved" award for orchestral libraries: Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition 
There's a special library in one of the demos that I only purchased recently, so excuse the difference in programming quality. 

Thank you for making this possible, Aaron. My music has reached new heights ever since I got these libraries and I intend to master the art of programming, blending, and mixing them. They are a seriously killer combination with Hollywood Orchestra.


----------



## El Buhdai

sound team apk said:


> Hi Infinite fans,
> If you choose to listen and provide feedback, thanks for your time!


I wish I knew how to write music with this level of maturity. My music sounds very contemporary, and I'm wondering if it has something to do with my age.

I like how free-flowing and unpredictable your writing is. It's something I'm really trying to nail. Some parts of it (particularly near the end) sound like they've come from the golden age of Hollywood. What's your process like? How do you achieve a mature writing style like this? My mockup skills are nice but I feel stuck in the way that I write sometimes.


----------



## StormBlåst

El Buhdai said:


> It seems we're in a sharing mood, so I'll throw my hat in the ring as well.
> 
> I have two little things to share. One is a snippet from a personal project, and the other is a loopable track I've made for a client of mine recently. Don't worry, I'm allow to share it lol.
> 
> All Brass & Woodwinds are from the esteemed Infinite Brass & Infinite Woodwinds.
> Strings and Percussion are from the winner of the "Best Improved" award for orchestral libraries: Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition
> There's a special library in one of the demos that I only purchased recently, so excuse the difference in programming quality.
> 
> Thank you for making this possible, Aaron. My music has reached new heights ever since I got these libraries and I intend to master the art of programming, blending, and mixing them. They are a seriously killer combination with Hollywood Orchestra.


I really liked that your personal project snippet! Got me a bit of a Mahler Symphonies vibe in a good way. Nice work!


----------



## ModalRealist

sound team apk said:


> "Thick" horns, especially with legato (see 0:40 and 0:50). Over time I got much better at executing these passages with IB, but the original is still thicker. Before I conclude it's time to saturate the heck out of it or layer in something else, any suggestions?


Don't saturate it. You'll make it less thick. The "thickness" you hear in the original is a very _mellow_ sound. Turn the dynamics down and the volume up. You could also try EQing the horns signal a bit for that part of the piece if you want to emphasise more of that mellowness.



sound team apk said:


> Sharp trombone shorts (0:45 especially, also 1:56 and 2:06). I've done ... not too badly ... but the original has a more raucous quality on the sharp attacks. I know even the IB 1.6 Trombones are still considered less successful than some of the other instruments, but is there something available (e.g., growl, or a lot of pitch bend) that I should use to thicken these attacks?


Dial in a low amount of growl matching the envelope of “raucous attack” you want. If it's still not enough, a tiny fleck of flutter too. And do (separate) pitch bends to emphasise finding tune. Blowing hard from standing into a trombone usually results in a lot of random chaos in the lips. A player can control this with various techniques to create a 'sharper' sound. By default, IW gives a very perfectly intoned attack from which one can downgrade. (This is the right way round: you cannot add sharpness back in later.)



sound team apk said:


> There are some quiet background sustains in the first half where I could have added more pitch drift and CC1 variation. I didn't write in any pitch bend anywhere, in fact, though I did dial down the pitch accuracy on some of the players.


I did notice this. The players sound like they're concentrating _so hard_ on keeping that nice tight tone. Which feels weird when they're just giving this nice pleasant, relaxed chordal note. Quick fixes include dialling down the dynamic level, and releasing the note a tad earlier. Ideally, even a simple curve off towards the end of the note will really help too.

Nice mockup though! Hope my observations are at all useful.


----------



## DANIELE

Remember you also have the attack accuracy knob, I recently modulated it with a random lfo in a relative small interval to automatically always have that randomness the attack deserves.


----------



## ModalRealist

DANIELE said:


> I recently modulated it with a random lfo in a relative small interval to automatically always have that randomness the attack deserves.


I’m an idiot.  

Oh nice idea! I wonder if the value of that parameter is picked up continuously or only on note-on? @aaronventure perhaps you could weigh in on that?

Also feature request: could we add the sustain random detune knob from 1.5 back in in addition to the attack detune in 1.6? I think it was quite useful!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ModalRealist said:


> Oh nice idea! I wonder if the value of that parameter is picked up continuously or only on note-on? @aaronventure perhaps you could weigh in on that?
> 
> Also feature request: could we add the sustain random detune knob from 1.5 back in in addition to the attack detune in 1.6? I think it was quite useful!


The old "Attack Accuracy" & the new "Pitch Accuracy" does the same thing, basically, only that the newer version affects pitch during sustains much more. If you only want the attack portion to be affected, lower the Pitch Accuracy after the attack to get a more stable sustain but still have a detuned attack.


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> The old "Attack Accuracy" & the new "Pitch Accuracy" does the same thing, basically, only that the newer version affects pitch during sustains much more. If you only want the attack portion to be affected, lower the Pitch Accuracy after the attack to get a more stable sustain but still have a detuned attack.


This.


----------



## ModalRealist

Jonathan Moray said:


> The old "Attack Accuracy" & the new "Pitch Accuracy" does the same thing, basically, only that the newer version affects pitch during sustains much more. If you only want the attack portion to be affected, lower the Pitch Accuracy after the attack to get a more stable sustain but still have a detuned attack.


Oh, I just got very confused and thought the new was old! My brain…


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ModalRealist said:


> Don't saturate it. You'll make it less thick. The "thickness" you hear in the original is a very _mellow_ sound. Turn the dynamics down and the volume up. You could also try EQing the horns signal a bit for that part of the piece if you want to emphasise more of that mellowness.



I don't fully agree. Saturation is basically a thickening agent since it adds extra harmonics, taking up more of the spectrum, hence making it sound thicker, especially in the higher frequencies. And when pushing the horns to a slight cuivre at F, saturation could definitely help thicken and glue the sound together. Just be careful what type of saturation you use, don't drive it too hard, and remember that most saturation will also affect the dynamics - compressing them at the top. 

But I do believe I see what you're saying, there are basically two camps when it comes to horns it seems: those that really like the cuivre sound and associate that sound with thick, epic, and bold; and those that like the more mellow and regal sound and associate that sound with thick, epic, and bold. The cuivre sound will cut through a mix much better, but the regal sound will naturally sound "thicker" since the balance between high and low frequencies are skewed towards the lowered, giving the sound much more body (something people often call thickness), but it's not the same type of thickness I believe the poster was referring too, and not the same thickness I was referring to at the top of this comment.

Could you explain how you see saturation making the sound less thick? I do believe you are referring to the way some saturation plugins degrade the low-end when driven to accommodate a busier high-end, but I could be wrong and there's something I'm completely missing.


----------



## Trash Panda

sound team apk said:


> Hi Infinite fans,
> 
> The Main Titles from Silverado got stuck in my head a few weeks ago, so I decided to try to mock it up using only IB for the brass. I've used IB in a lot of projects, but never entirely on its own or remotely to this extent. This theme has a pretty fun variety of articulations in two minutes. It's reached far beyond the point of diminishing returns, so here's where I got:
> 
> View attachment Silverado - Main Title (barely mixed draft) - Infinite Brass.mp3
> 
> 
> Bear in mind that this was instrument practice, not mixing practice. I quickly gave up trying to match Newman Scoring Stage, and I've left in strings that are far too dark and receded compared to the original (the most glaring of several problems...).
> 
> I did better than I hoped and learned a lot in the process ... Still, when I compare my mock to the original (or to others' work posted in this thread), I see many, many areas to improve. For people who know this library well, here are my biggest questions:
> 
> "Thick" horns, especially with legato (see 0:40 and 0:50). Over time I got much better at executing these passages with IB, but the original is still thicker. Before I conclude it's time to saturate the heck out of it or layer in something else, any suggestions?
> Sharp trombone shorts (0:45 especially, also 1:56 and 2:06). I've done ... not too badly ... but the original has a more raucous quality on the sharp attacks. I know even the IB 1.6 Trombones are still considered less successful than some of the other instruments, but is there something available (e.g., growl, or a lot of pitch bend) that I should use to thicken these attacks?
> Some notes and caveats:
> 
> There are some quiet background sustains in the first half where I could have added more pitch drift and CC1 variation. I didn't write in any pitch bend anywhere, in fact, though I did dial down the pitch accuracy on some of the players.
> IB is all Bersa ... mix mic 2? It's a lot more close mic than I've previously used. Then I applied Spaces's Newman IR. The result still doesn't sound much like the refence, so I just gave up at that point.
> Otherwise there's no processing at all on IB -- or the track as a whole -- except Ozone on the master to bring it up to -1db and open up the highs a little bit.
> If you choose to listen and provide feedback, thanks for your time!


If you want a thicker sound, try dialing in some very light vibrato on your first chairs. We’re talking each vibrato slider at less than 10% here. You can also achieve this by doing a small sine wave in the sustain portion of the CC1. 

If you need it even thicker than that, you can do the same for the other instruments.


----------



## ModalRealist

Jonathan Moray said:


> Could you explain how you see saturation making the sound less thick? I do believe you are referring to the way some saturation plugins degrade the low-end when driven to accommodate a busier high-end, but I could be wrong and there's something I'm completely missing.


I listened to the original recording that @sound team apk had mocked up and found the relevant phrase. In the original recording, the horns are playing with what you call the “regal” texture. So as the original question was how to get that sound (which was described as “thick”) I suggested lowering the dynamic. Adding a saturation effect will increase the harmonic content and potentially move the sound the other way.

I agree that in the general sense, saturation “thickens” the sound.

Edit: it may well be that reducing dynamic, adding volume _and_ adding saturation might give the “thickest” effect.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ModalRealist said:


> I listened to the original recording that @sound team apk had mocked up and found the relevant phrase. In the original recording, the horns are playing with what you call the “regal” texture. So as the original question was how to get that sound (which was described as “thick”) I suggested lowering the dynamic. Adding a saturation effect will increase the harmonic content and potentially move the sound the other way.
> 
> I agree that in the general sense, saturation “thickens” the sound.
> 
> Edit: it may well be that reducing dynamic, adding volume _and_ adding saturation might give the “thickest” effect.


Absolutely, you're right, low dynamic and saturation go well together and might be the best fit for the section. Although, the quick listen I did to the posted examples sounded pretty close to the original dynamics, so lowering the dynamics and making it more mellow might make it "thicker" but I think it would move away from that F dynamic then. I need to listen more in-depth before I can say anything though.

I think I'm gonna have to whip up some audio examples to show what I mean.

Here's me playing a quick little line with some different dynamics. The first one is without saturation, the second one is with saturation. This is actually v1.5 of Infinite Brass because that's what I had loaded at the moment. I find the saturation sounds fuller and "thicker" (warmer) throughout the small snippet of music - both at the lower and higher dynamics. The saturation I chose might have crushed too much of the mid for my taste though. I tried to match RMS volume so hopefully, they sound similar enough in terms of volume to make a good comparison.

No saturation
View attachment F.Horns a4 -- NoSAT.mp3


Slight saturation
View attachment F.Horns a4 -- SAT.mp3


Then here's also another representation of the type of "thickness" I'm talking about and the type of thickness I think is being discussed by the OP. The first audio clip is of a SINE ensemble (I know it's quite detuned, more so than a Horn ensemble would be) that is a pretty good representation of Horns at a lower dynamic, after that a SAW ensemble which is a pretty good representation of Horns at a higher dynamic.

If you ask most producers - this would mostly be in the EDM industry - the second one would be considered full and thick, while the first one would be considered less so. And this is true in almost all cases, at least from my personal experience. And it's not surprising since the SAW takes up a lot more space and fills the spectrum making it sound much fatter and thicker than the SINE.

SINE
View attachment SINE-Ens.mp3


SAW
View attachment SAW-Ens.mp3


But here's the crux: this isn't always true, especially in orchestral music, because thickness can mean a variety of things and a lack of it could stem from a variety of things as well. It could be in the orchestration as well as the sound of the instruments themselves. When listening to some well-orchestrated, beautiful low-dynamic brass pads you really get that thickness and warmth that we all love, but I still don't think it's the same thickness OP is talking about. There was an old composition that we mocked up in this thread some time ago but I can't for the life of me find it or remember the name of it.

Bottom line before I end this rant (I got carried away, sorry), I think what you are referring to should be called warmth and what I'm referring to should be called thickness. You get warmth by lowering the dynamics (the right saturation still helps with warmth because you still need some high-end for warmth, just a different kind) and thickness comes from something that's fuller, literally filling the spectrum.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.


----------



## sound team apk

El Buhdai said:


> I wish I knew how to write music with this level of maturity. My music sounds very contemporary, and I'm wondering if it has something to do with my age.
> 
> I like how free-flowing and unpredictable your writing is. It's something I'm really trying to nail. Some parts of it (particularly near the end) sound like they've come from the golden age of Hollywood. What's your process like? How do you achieve a mature writing style like this? My mockup skills are nice but I feel stuck in the way that I write sometimes.


To make sure it's clear, I didn't write the music. Bruce Broughton did. The Silverado score is pretty fantastic, and a great example of Hollywood scores of the late 70s and 80s. My own writing is rubbish and quite immature by comparison, so I can't offer much insight there. 

Or by "writing" were you referring to the process of reproducing the feel in mockup itself (to the extent that I did...)? I could try to say something there if you were, but I don't want to go off on a rant that no one wants to hear, especially given that I think the other "rants" going on in the thread right now are quite interesting


----------



## Ricgus3

Anyone tried infinite woodwind with an ewi midi controller?


----------



## sound team apk

ModalRealist said:


> Nice mockup though! Hope my observations are at all useful.


You (and others) have rewarded me richly for posting something and requesting observations. There's a lot of useful advice and interesting discussion here. 



ModalRealist said:


> Dial in a low amount of growl matching the envelope of “raucous attack” you want. If it's still not enough, a tiny fleck of flutter too. And do (separate) pitch bends to emphasise finding tune. Blowing hard from standing into a trombone usually results in a lot of random chaos in the lips.


OK, excellent.



Trash Panda said:


> If you want a thicker sound, try dialing in some very light vibrato on your first chairs. We’re talking each vibrato slider at less than 10% here. You can also achieve this by doing a small sine wave in the sustain portion of the CC1.


Do you feel this helps with the shorter notes as well, or more for when the note settles into a sustain?



DANIELE said:


> Remember you also have the attack accuracy knob, I recently modulated it with a random lfo in a relative small interval to automatically always have that randomness the attack deserves.


How did I not think of this? I've been considering automating pitch bend, but I can just use all the readily-available CC lfo tools to automate this thing Aaron already built in ...


Jonathan Moray said:


> But I do believe I see what you're saying, there are basically two camps when it comes to horns it seems: those that really like the cuivre sound and associate that sound with thick, epic, and bold; and those that like the more mellow and regal sound and associate that sound with thick, epic, and bold.





Jonathan Moray said:


> The cuivre sound will cut through a mix much better, but the regal sound will naturally sound "thicker" since the balance between high and low frequencies are skewed towards the lowered, giving the sound much more body (something people often call thickness), but it's not the same type of thickness I believe the poster was referring too, and not the same thickness I was referring to at the top of this comment.


I started to feel like I should apologize for my choice of the word "thick," but not really, because it produced this exchange about what "thick" and "warm" meant.



Jonathan Moray said:


> the quick listen I did to the posted examples sounded pretty close to the original dynamics, so lowering the dynamics and making it more mellow might make it "thicker" but I think it would move away from that F dynamic then.


There is also definitely a bit of buzz, but perhaps a regal buzz ...... Maybe I should split the difference. These are all a2 lines. I wonder what would happen if I left the lead horn with a more cuivre sound, while making the second horn warmer as @ModalRealist suggests. I played around with this a little just now, and it shows promise, but I'd definitely have to adjust the volume on the second horn as well to maintain the solid F against the trumpets.

I typically try to do as much as I can with CC1 alone, but it's clear from this exercise that I'd need to start using CC11 as well for these kinds of passages. I also already had to change some other long-standing volume balance assumptions I've had in my IB template for months to try to match the original.

Thanks again for the ideas and interesting discussion!


----------



## Trash Panda

sound team apk said:


> Do you feel this helps with the shorter notes as well, or more for when the note settles into a sustain?


This is for the long notes and more for the bones because the pitch drift on them is pretty conservative versus horns/trumpets. Turning the pitch accuracy down to 35%-50% usually works for the high brass. 

You can also reduce the dynamic range on the second horn to keep its volume at a lower CC1 value to reduce cuivre.


----------



## sound team apk

Trash Panda said:


> This is for the long notes and more for the bones because the pitch drift on them is pretty conservative versus horns/trumpets. Turning the pitch accuracy down to 35%-50% usually works for the high brass.
> 
> You can also reduce the dynamic range on the second horn to keep its volume at a lower CC1 value to reduce cuivre.


True. In this case, ten seconds later all the horns are playing a pretty brash ff, so I would either need CC11, CC27, or an extra track or two of "regal horns." But since it's probably somewhat uncommon that I would actually need a single horn to play the full range of timbre and volume combined, the extra tracks version is an appealing simplification.


----------



## El Buhdai

sound team apk said:


> To make sure it's clear, I didn't write the music. Bruce Broughton did. The Silverado score is pretty fantastic, and a great example of Hollywood scores of the late 70s and 80s. My own writing is rubbish and quite immature by comparison, so I can't offer much insight there.
> 
> Or by "writing" were you referring to the process of reproducing the feel in mockup itself (to the extent that I did...)? I could try to say something there if you were, but I don't want to go off on a rant that no one wants to hear, especially given that I think the other "rants" going on in the thread right now are quite interesting



Ah! I may have misread. I was super tired that day. Still a great mock-up nonetheless!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

sound team apk said:


> Do you feel this helps with the shorter notes as well, or more for when the note settles into a sustain?


@Trash Panda has some really solid advice.

By default, the vibrato automatically fades in after the attack, so there's no vibrato directly at the attack. This behaviour can be turned off by the little button next to the vibrato slider. I too almost always have some very slow and very subtle vibrato on the instruments and a little heavier vibrato on the lead (not enough to really be noticeable). This helps give them a little bit more movement.



sound team apk said:


> I started to feel like I should apologize for my choice of the word "thick," but not really, because it produced this exchange about what "thick" and "warm" meant.


It's totally fine. It's just a redundant argument about semantics from my side. I think definitions are important so that all parties understand each other. And yes, the horns in the original don't have that much cuivre but still sound large and epic.



sound team apk said:


> There is also definitely a bit of buzz, but perhaps a regal buzz ...... Maybe I should split the difference. These are all a2 lines. I wonder what would happen if I left the lead horn with a more cuivre sound, while making the second horn warmer as @ModalRealist suggests. I played around with this a little just now, and it shows promise, but I'd definitely have to adjust the volume on the second horn as well to maintain the solid F against the trumpets.
> 
> I typically try to do as much as I can with CC1 alone, but it's clear from this exercise that I'd need to start using CC11 as well for these kinds of passages. I also already had to change some other long-standing volume balance assumptions I've had in my IB template for months to try to match the original.


That's another good suggestion and another way to go about it. As with all these suggestions, it will give a different sound. It might give the sound you're after, it might not, always worth a try. With these instruments, there are so many things you can do and try to get the sound you want. And as you already realized, changing the dynamics also changes the volume by default. so you need to compensate so the horn with the lower dynamics can still compete underneath the horn playing louder. Please, do post again when you've tested these suggestions and found something that you think works.

Would you be willing to post the midi?


----------



## ModalRealist

Does anyone have a recommendation on a flexible CC generator? I’d love to experiment feeding different modulated CC curves. And ideally, that CC wants to “modulate” a manual input…

…Im thinking: play or draw the dynamic curve on CC-X, have a modulation source on CC-Y, modulate X by Y and feed this as the CC to Infinite.

Is this something one could do with the PLE in Cubase maybe? Or do I need a plug-in?


----------



## aaronventure

ModalRealist said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation on a flexible CC generator? I’d love to experiment feeding different modulated CC curves. And ideally, that CC wants to “modulate” a manual input…
> 
> …Im thinking: play or draw the dynamic curve on CC-X, have a modulation source on CC-Y, modulate X by Y and feed this as the CC to Infinite.
> 
> Is this something one could do with the PLE in Cubase maybe? Or do I need a plug-in?


In Reaper you can just assign an LFO to a slider in ReaControlMIDI to get modulation, then assign a CC# to control that slider's base value. 

CC Mapper X will let you freehand draw the curves.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

aaronventure said:


> then assign a CC# to control that slider's base value


How would you go about this?

I've used ReaControlMIDI from time to time to create some randomization, especially for the pitch, but when I do this I can't control the base value since every time the slider in ReaControlMIDI moves it resets the slider, ignoring my pitch wheel. And since you can't automate or assign a controller to the sliders in Parameter Modulation, I can't change the base value or the LFOs effect. Right now I can only use it as a set it and forget effect.

Do you mean to assign a CC# in Kontakt so that you have ReaControlMIDI assigned to some arbitrary CC that is then linked in Kontakt to the pitch and then have the pitch wheel itself be untouched, meaning you have two faders for the same thing? Or am I missing something?

Could you please elaborate? Thanks.


----------



## aaronventure

Jonathan Moray said:


> How would you go about this?


Bring up the Modwheel in ReaControlMIDI, assign that slider to CC1 (or whichever), then add a random LFO to it and set it to centered. 






Now as you move CC1, you'll move the Mod Wheel slider which will then output CC1 augmented by whatever randomization Reaper's parameter LFO does. If the available speed range is not enough for you, you can just highlight the input value (default max is 8) and write whatever you want in there to get it higher. Can go a bit haywire if it's set above 30, in my experience.

There's a lot of cool stuff you can do with this. Like sidechainining your CC1/dynamics to something like a kick and have it automatically duck out of the way right there on the VI stage, instead of doing it on the output stage. Not that I know why you would need to do this, but you can, if you want 

You can create auto-inflections on each new note press by having something like a hihat triggered in a separate channel which doesn't go into the mix, but serves only as the sidechain signal for this control which then ducks CC1 a bit every time you hit a note. Works well for poorly programmed legato patches. You'd normally do this yourself right there in the MIDI clip but if you have to do it for every note _anyway, _then rearranging becomes a pain.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Woah! Thanks


aaronventure said:


> Bring up the Modwheel in ReaControlMIDI, assign that slider to CC1 (or whichever), then add a random LFO to it and set it to centered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now as you move CC1, you'll move the Mod Wheel slider which will then output CC1 augmented by whatever randomization Reaper's parameter LFO does. If the available speed range is not enough for you, you can just highlight the input value (default max is 8) and write whatever you want in there to get it higher. Can go a bit haywire if it's set above 30, in my experience.
> 
> There's a lot of cool stuff you can do with this. Like sidechainining your CC1/dynamics to something like a kick and have it automatically duck out of the way right there on the VI stage, instead of doing it on the output stage. Not that I know why you would need to do this, but you can, if you want
> 
> You can create auto-inflections on each new note press by having something like a hihat triggered in a separate channel which doesn't go into the mix, but serves only as the sidechain signal for this control which then ducks CC1 a bit every time you hit a note. Works well for poorly programmed legato patches. You'd normally do this yourself right there in the MIDI clip but if you have to do it for every note _anyway, _then rearranging becomes a pain.


Thank you very much for the reply! I feel stupid. The answer was so simple. I, for whatever reason, didn't think of using "Link from MIDI to FX parameter" in a situation like this. I use it a lot to link up different effects and whatnot but didn't think of using it to move the base value. Works like a charm.

I actually have used Parameter Modulation to duck the reverb on a few occasions - either when a kick hits or when a synth is playing so that I create this expanding feeling once the reverb comes back up during the silent parts. Really useful stuff and it just got even more useful with this knowledge.

Thanks again!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jonathan Moray said:


> Woah! Thanks
> 
> Thank you very much for the reply! I feel stupid. The answer was so simple. I, for whatever reason, didn't think of using "Link from MIDI to FX parameter" in a situation like this. I use it a lot to link up different effects and whatnot but didn't think of using it to move the base value. Works like a charm.
> 
> I actually have used Parameter Modulation to duck the reverb on a few occasions - either when a kick hits or when a synth is playing so that I create this expanding feeling once the reverb comes back up during the silent parts. Really useful stuff and it just got even more useful with this knowledge.
> 
> Thanks again!


Jumped the gun here... Still not getting it to work properly. I will have to look into it more. At least using the method mentioned above gets me closer to the desired result. But the CC still jumps sporadically when moving the base value.


----------



## dyross

Reposting an IW question from a different thread:



> It doesn't seem, though perhaps I'm missing something, that AV woodwinds support breath noise / key noise as something like SWAM does. I think this is something key for me, especially for the Flute, so wondering if I'm missing something.



I'm specifically referring to the sliders SWAM Flutes has for breath / key noise. Does IW have anything similar, or any ability to control it in another way?

From: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/good-mid-range-solo-instrument-library.124336/


----------



## Jonathan Moray

dyross said:


> Reposting an IW question from a different thread:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm specifically referring to the sliders SWAM Flutes has for breath / key noise. Does IW have anything similar, or any ability to control it in another way?
> 
> From: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/good-mid-range-solo-instrument-library.124336/


Yes, IW (and IB) has the ability to control both breath / key noise. They Key volume is right on the front page, and to change the breath noise you will have to go under the hood. It's pretty easy.


----------



## dyross

Ah, thanks! I see the key noise knob here, now: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/...VTPYMUDNQILZL482TWE/Woods+01.jpg?format=1000w

Oops!

Is there a manual in addition to the walkthrough (which I think didn't mention either of these) that I can reference to avoid dumb questions like this?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

dyross said:


> Ah, thanks! I see the key noise knob here, now: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/...VTPYMUDNQILZL482TWE/Woods+01.jpg?format=1000w
> 
> Oops!
> 
> Is there a manual in addition to the walkthrough (which I think didn't mention either of these) that I can reference to avoid dumb questions like this?


There is. Although I'm not sure it's available online.

No dumb questions. The one about breath noise is not in the manual I believe and has only been discussed in this thread. It's a little bit of a "hack" since it doesn't come configured out of the box so to speak.


----------



## Martin S

Jonathan Moray said:


> There is. Although I'm not sure it's available online.
> 
> No dumb questions. The one about breath noise is not in the manual I believe and has only been discussed in this thread. It's a little bit of a "hack" since it doesn't come configured out of the box so to speak.


I can’t seem to find the info about this little hack regarding breath noise when I do a search in this thread. Do you mind reposting it, or point me in the right direction?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Martin S said:


> I can’t seem to find the info about this little hack regarding breath noise when I do a search in this thread. Do you mind reposting it, or point me in the right direction?


I thought it was discussed. I see that I might be mistaken. This is at least something I've done on a few occasions. Do you need help walking through it? It's relatively simple.

Click the little wrench icon to open the instrument.
Then you open the "Group Editor" tab and scan through that until you find "Noise" or similar. For some instruments in IW there are sometimes two noise layers, one for the attack and one for the sustain.
You click the noise you want to edit. Make sure only the noise layers are selected or you could potentially change other parts of the instrument. You see this by the little square next to the name of the group.
Once selected, scroll down to the Amplifier section where it says volume. And raise it. That will raise only the volume of the selected layers, in this case, the noise layers.
You might want to do each layer separately - first noise and then noise attack - to get the right balance between them. If you want to get a little bit more advanced, you can also change the curves in the amplifier section (below the volume knob we just change) to get more breath only in the lower dynamics or anything really.

You can also do the same thing for the group called "key noise". The ability to change the volume of the key noise is exposed on the front of the instrument, but I sometimes change the curve so even at the lower dynamic you hear key clicks. Originally, the key clicks can sometimes follow the dynamics a bit too well so that there are absolutely no clicks at no the lower dynamics which is not always what you want.

Mess around. As long as you don't save the instruments, you can't really break anything, and if you are worried, just copy the instruments folder before doing anything to have a backup.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Another way to do it - a way that might break fewer things because for me when I tested it again it broke the vibrato for the flute, not sure why and don't have time to check it right now - is to just add an effect to the group.

You do everything the same but instead of changing the volume in the amplifier section you add a Stereo Modeller last in the "Group InsertFX" section and raise the volume there.


----------



## Martin S

Thanks a lot Jonathan, this is much appreciated


----------



## sound team apk

Jonathan Moray said:


> That's another good suggestion and another way to go about it. As with all these suggestions, it will give a different sound. It might give the sound you're after, it might not, always worth a try. With these instruments, there are so many things you can do and try to get the sound you want. And as you already realized, changing the dynamics also changes the volume by default. so you need to compensate so the horn with the lower dynamics can still compete underneath the horn playing louder. Please, do post again when you've tested these suggestions and found something that you think works.
> 
> Would you be willing to post the midi?


Normally I would be happy to share my MIDI, but in this case I used the score. Out of respect for the publishers that I'm glad make these scores available, I don't think it'd be appropriate to share MIDI I didn't transcribe myself.

What I can do, when I have time, is make a copy of all the CC data but change the notes around into something I can share. Hopefully in the next couple of days I can try that, if you (and/or anyone else) is interested in continuing experiments.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

This is the behaviour I get when using the mentioned method. It moves the base (so that's some improvement) but it's all jittery and sporadic, not too usable. I want to use Parameter Modulation with a slower speed to get some nice, subtle movement. Any ideas? @aaronventure


----------



## Jonathan Moray

sound team apk said:


> Normally I would be happy to share my MIDI, but in this case I used the score. Out of respect for the publishers that I'm glad make these scores available, I don't think it'd be appropriate to share MIDI I didn't transcribe myself.
> 
> What I can do, when I have time, is make a copy of all the CC data but change the notes around into something I can share. Hopefully in the next couple of days I can try that, if you (and/or anyone else) is interested in continuing experiments.


That's fine. I can transcribe it myself if I get the time.


----------



## ModalRealist

@Jonathan Moray change the “strength” slider on the LFO to reduce the magnitude of the variation. You can also change the LFO to “random” and play with the hertz speed setting to get slightly different effects.

Does anyone know of a plug-in that would do this in Cubase? The Transformer MIDI plug-in in Cubase can’t do it (can’t modulate one CC’s value by another - can only copy over).

This in Reaper almost alone makes me consider switching but learning a whole new DAW…


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> In Reaper you can just assign an LFO to a slider in ReaControlMIDI to get modulation, then assign a CC# to control that slider's base value.
> 
> CC Mapper X will let you freehand draw the curves.


This is exactly what I'm doing.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ModalRealist said:


> @Jonathan Moray change the “strength” slider on the LFO to reduce the magnitude of the variation. You can also change the LFO to “random” and play with the hertz speed setting to get slightly different effects.
> 
> Does anyone know of a plug-in that would do this in Cubase? The Transformer MIDI plug-in in Cubase can’t do it (can’t modulate one CC’s value by another - can only copy over).
> 
> This in Reaper almost alone makes me consider switching but learning a whole new DAW…


Thanks, but that's not the problem. The problem is that when I move the modwheel, the CC value jumps all over the place. Just using the Parameter Modulation + ReaControlMIDI work great, always has been, but when I want to combine ReaControlMIDI modulation, be it random or sine or whatever, with my own modwheel movements it becomes sporadic. I think it's because Kontakt gets two messages, for whatever reason, one from ReaControlMIDI and one directly from the modwheel so it's jumping between the values. ReaControlMIDI should filter out the midi that's being sent from the plugin itself to not conflict, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

EDIT: Yeah, what I mentioned above seems to be part of the problem, but I'm not sure if it's exactly the way I described it. It seems to work great if I assign another CC to control the base value, something that's not the same as CC1.

For example, if I have ReaControlMIDI to randomize CC1 (dynamics) I can't have CC1 also affect that base value. I'm not sure if this is because it will then let both values through, I think that might be the case, but I'm not sure. I could either change what CC is assigned to the dynamics inside of Kontakt so that I can use CC1 for the base value or I could change what CC I use on my keyboard and keep it the same in Kontakt.

EDIT 2: One workaround (still tedious that I need more plugins in my chain) is to add a MIDI Mapper and map CC1 to another CC not in use by Kontakt and then use that to drive the base value. In this case, I used CC2. So I map CC1 to CC2 in MIDI Mapper and then in ReaControlMIDI I use CC2 to drive the base value of the Parameter Modulation. I think this works because MIDI Mapper completely removes CC1 out of the equation after its point in the chain unless you use the passthrough option.

There's been some time but I might be able to hack something together that would do the same in ReaControlMIDI. Unless anyone else with greater skill got the time to figure out and fix this. I know there are plenty of coders on here that are *much *more fluent than I am.

EDIT 3: This wouldn't work very well with pitch, though. At least not from what I can see right now. Because you still want to use the pitchwheel to move the pitch, not some arbitrary CC that is the linked to the pitch.


----------



## aaronventure

Right click on MIDI at the top of the ReaControlMIDI window. Make sure it's replacing the MIDI bus. Also try disabling Raw Mode.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

aaronventure said:


> Right click on MIDI at the top of the ReaControlMIDI window. Make sure it's replacing the MIDI bus. Also try disabling Raw Mode.


Good suggestions but sadly I've already tried them. When not using Raw Mode (which seems to just be a switch for 7-bit or 14-bit midi), I get the same problem we were discussing earlier in the thread: Since REAPER seems to implement a pseudo-14-bit solution it uses two CCs to create a 14-bit CC. For example, it uses CC1 and CC33 which just happens to be Dynamics & Pitch Accuracy in the Infinite Series. I don't know if this is the standard implementation for 14-bit, but at least it doesn't work very well in REAPER.

When Raw Mode is not active, I get this (it also doesn't fix the sporadic movement when moving the mod wheel). And this is still a problem I get outside of using ReaControlMIDI, it just happens when you move two CCs that are 14-bit linked at the same time, and I've still not found a way to turn it off. Can be a bit infuriation and the only solution I've found to not have this happen at all is to just reassign the CCs which is something I rather avoid doing.


----------



## dyross

Jonathan Moray said:


> Another way to do it - a way that might break fewer things because for me when I tested it again it broke the vibrato for the flute, not sure why and don't have time to check it right now - is to just add an effect to the group.
> 
> You do everything the same but instead of changing the volume in the amplifier section you add a Stereo Modeller last in the "Group InsertFX" section and raise the volume there.


Hi @Jonathan Moray (or anyone else) - would you mind sharing a sound clip of one of the flutes with the breathiness / key noise turned up a bunch? I'm hoping to use it for some folky / rock-ish flute, so this is something I'm looking for.

Edit: if folks don’t mind, I would love to hear both some shorts and some longs with vibrato.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

dyross said:


> Hi @Jonathan Moray (or anyone else) - would you mind sharing a sound clip of one of the flutes with the breathiness / key noise turned up a bunch? I'm hoping to use it for some folky / rock-ish flute, so this is something I'm looking for.
> 
> Edit: if folks don’t mind, I would love to hear both some shorts and some longs with vibrato.


Do you have any midi file at hand that you would like to hear?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

dyross said:


> Hi @Jonathan Moray (or anyone else) - would you mind sharing a sound clip of one of the flutes with the breathiness / key noise turned up a bunch? I'm hoping to use it for some folky / rock-ish flute, so this is something I'm looking for.
> 
> Edit: if folks don’t mind, I would love to hear both some shorts and some longs with vibrato.


Here's a *very *quick playthrough. Just jumble of whatever. I haven't played for a couple of months so it's fair to say I'm rusty but at least you might get some idea of what it would sound like. Not really much folk music but there are some longer notes and some different shorts. No metronome (as is evident by how janky the tempo is) and barely any editing.

View attachment IW - Flute Quick Noise Test 001.mp3


----------



## dyross

Jonathan Moray said:


> Do you have any midi file at hand that you would like to hear?


Hey, you beat me to it, thank you!

Here's a quick MIDI file from a Dorico mockup of two phrases from a piece very much like:


----------



## dyross

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's a *very *quick playthrough. Just jumble of whatever. I haven't played for a couple of months so it's fair to say I'm rusty but at least you might get some idea of what it would sound like. Not really much folk music but there are some longer notes and some different shorts. No metronome (as is evident by how janky the tempo is) and barely any editing.
> 
> View attachment IW - Flute Quick Noise Test 001.mp3


This sounds great, and is super helpful. Thank you!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

dyross said:


> Hey, you beat me to it, thank you!
> 
> Here's a quick MIDI file from a Dorico mockup of two phrases from a piece very much like:



Here's IW playing the midi. Of course, I had to edit the midi cc to work well with IW. It didn't take too much time. I wasn't sure what the last part sounded like because I couldn't find it in the reference you posted so it might not be correct.

There are two things that I would note about IW compared to the reference: the tone and the vibrato.

There's been some time since we had an update to IW and I hope the next one will continue improving the tone of the instruments - like all updates previously - because I still find something missing in the tone (I've said this before but it's the best way I can describe it: it's missing a certain hollowness and silvery high-end). IW still sounds good though, and I don't doubt Aaron will continue making them even better. I really like the tone in the example you posted. The tone paired with the composition reminded me of the flute in the Pillars of Eternity soundtrack (Good soundtrack and really great orchestral sound) - just grittier.

I also feel like IW's vibrato can be a bit shy and I would like to be able to turn it up to eleven when needed. Even at the highest, the vibrato is still not always enough.

Also, this is played on the Alto Flute since that's what I think was used in the reference.

View attachment IW - Ur Vilander (Quick Alto Flute Test).mp3


----------



## BradHoyt

Just checkin in.... Anyone have an idea regarding the status of Infinite Strings?


----------



## Trash Panda

BradHoyt said:


> Just checkin in.... Anyone have an idea regarding the status of Infinite Strings?


No idea on Infinite Strings’ status, but you just spared my wallet for another month. 🤣


----------



## dyross

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's IW playing the midi. Of course, I had to edit the midi cc to work well with IW. It didn't take too much time. I wasn't sure what the last part sounded like because I couldn't find it in the reference you posted so it might not be correct.
> 
> There are two things that I would note about IW compared to the reference: the tone and the vibrato.
> 
> There's been some time since we had an update to IW and I hope the next one will continue improving the tone of the instruments - like all updates previously - because I still find something missing in the tone (I've said this before but it's the best way I can describe it: it's missing a certain hollowness and silvery high-end). IW still sounds good though, and I don't doubt Aaron will continue making them even better. I really like the tone in the example you posted. The tone paired with the composition reminded me of the flute in the Pillars of Eternity soundtrack (Good soundtrack and really great orchestral sound) - just grittier.
> 
> I also feel like IW's vibrato can be a bit shy and I would like to be able to turn it up to eleven when needed. Even at the highest, the vibrato is still not always enough.
> 
> Also, this is played on the Alto Flute since that's what I think was used in the reference.
> 
> View attachment IW - Ur Vilander (Quick Alto Flute Test).mp3


Wow, thank you very much for doing this! Agreed about those points.


----------



## monochrome

BradHoyt said:


> Just checkin in.... Anyone have an idea regarding the status of Infinite Strings?


you can't say that fam. the venture is lurking around these parts


----------



## Gauss

BradHoyt said:


> Just checkin in.... Anyone have an idea regarding the status of Infinite Strings?


+1 month


----------



## sound team apk

Combining merely a subset of the ideas from @Trash Panda, @ModalRealist, and @Jonathan Moray ...

I created a "regal horn" with lower dynamic range (something random around 50%) so I could lower the dynamics. The preset I loaded happened to have quite low pitch accuracy as well, and I left it that way. I used this regal horn for just one of the two horns in the two main a2 lines we've been talking about. Otherwise, I haven't yet tried anything with vibrato or saturation or anything. 

Here are the two versions, isolated (no external reverb, no limiting, nothing). Even the original MIDI programming I spent a fair amount of time on seems sloppy when isolated, and I spent only five or so minutes on the regal horn edits. But you can get the idea.  

The order is line 1 (original), line 1 (one regal horn), line 2 (original), line 2 (one regal horn). 

View attachment Regal Horn Comparison.mp3


Particularly in line 2, you can hear a huge difference even with my hasty edits.

In context, my first pass at the regal horn version sounds like this (it's subtle, but I think noticeable, and I believe the isolated version achieved a more pronounced version of the effect):

View attachment Silverado - Main Title Horns Exerpt - One Regal Horn.mp3


I don't know if this is the best way to do this, but it absolutely adds the some of the "thickness" (by which I think we'd now say "warmth") I was lacking. I think I'll always keep two "regal horns" in my template now. 

I've attached the original (non-regal) MIDI, disguised (not like these twelve notes are hard to pick out ... but it feels appropriate).


----------



## dcgrp

I'm typically a sibelius / noteperformer user when it comes to music notation. But with the release of Dorico 4 and supposedly a bunch of workflow improvements, is Infinite Woodwinds/Brass and Dorico 4 a viable option now? Mostly, I'm just wondering how fast or not fast it is to get CC1 data into Dorico. Can you record CC1 data? Do you prefer to draw it in with the pen tool? In reaper I usually go with the LEAP motion controller for CC1.

Also, can you use Dorico's expression map system to get the shorts to right right short length. Can you get the slurs to make the notes overlap in the piano roll for Infinite to notice the legato?


----------



## campovsky

Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩


----------



## Ivan Duch

dcgrp said:


> I'm typically a sibelius / noteperformer user when it comes to music notation. But with the release of Dorico 4 and supposedly a bunch of workflow improvements, is Infinite Woodwinds/Brass and Dorico 4 a viable option now? Mostly, I'm just wondering how fast or not fast it is to get CC1 data into Dorico. Can you record CC1 data? Do you prefer to draw it in with the pen tool? In reaper I usually go with the LEAP motion controller for CC1.
> 
> Also, can you use Dorico's expression map system to get the shorts to right right short length. Can you get the slurs to make the notes overlap in the piano roll for Infinite to notice the legato?


I'm in the process of testing the same stuff, including trying to create expression maps for the app. I still haven't checked if Dorico recognizes the leap motion and my midi keyboard simultaneously but it's great for recording live, the conversion from what you play to notation is surprisingly decent as well.


----------



## Saxer

campovsky said:


> Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩



Great work! One of the few mockups of this piece I've heard where the articulations and note lengths are right!


----------



## campovsky

Saxer said:


> Great work! One of the few mockups of this piece I've heard where the articulations and note lengths are right!


That’s why we all love Infinite, right? 😍


----------



## Juulu

campovsky said:


> Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩



Wow that sounds amazing. It sounds like you spent a lot of time shaping the dynamics and note lengths to get everything right. Did you play everything in yourself?


----------



## Trash Panda

campovsky said:


> Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩



Great job with this! The note lengths and CC1 work do indeed sound very accurate.

My one piece of constructive feedback would be to bring down the velocities to start lower than the current/initial CC1 value in most places. This will round off the shape of the attacks of the brass like in the original.

If you're going for extreme attention to detail, another good touch is to add in Lindell 80 channel strip from PA, dial in a bit of gain with the unity gain switch on to add some saturation and give a subtle bump to the high-mids to accentuate the brassiness.

Keep up the good work!


----------



## campovsky

Juulu said:


> Wow that sounds amazing. It sounds like you spent a lot of time shaping the dynamics and note lengths to get everything right. Did you play everything in yourself?


Yeah played everything in, but also spent a lot of time editing with the original as reference 



Trash Panda said:


> Great job with this! The note lengths and CC1 work do indeed sound very accurate.
> 
> My one piece of constructive feedback would be to bring down the velocities to start lower than the current/initial CC1 value in most places. This will round off the shape of the attacks of the brass like in the original.
> 
> If you're going for extreme attention to detail, another good touch is to add in Lindell 80 channel strip from PA, dial in a bit of gain with the unity gain switch on to add some saturation and give a subtle bump to the high-mids to accentuate the brassiness.
> 
> Keep up the good work!


Cheers! I've got various bits and bobs of saturation involved at various stages, but I always feel a bit like I'm just chucking those things on and seeing what happens, so specific suggestions are always appreciated


----------



## Mike Stone

Agree with the others, that's a great mockup. There is still some room for improvement in Infinite Brass (more fullness of tone, if being very picky), but it is my favorite brass library so far. The playability is second-to-none, a must-have library IMO. Excited to see what Aaron does next with his Infinite libraries.


----------



## aaronventure

campovsky said:


> Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩



Hey, that's a great performance!


----------



## campovsky

aaronventure said:


> Hey, that's a great performance!


Hey, that’s a great library!


----------



## aaronventure

dcgrp said:


> I'm typically a sibelius / noteperformer user when it comes to music notation. But with the release of Dorico 4 and supposedly a bunch of workflow improvements, is Infinite Woodwinds/Brass and Dorico 4 a viable option now? Mostly, I'm just wondering how fast or not fast it is to get CC1 data into Dorico. Can you record CC1 data? Do you prefer to draw it in with the pen tool? In reaper I usually go with the LEAP motion controller for CC1.
> 
> Also, can you use Dorico's expression map system to get the shorts to right right short length. Can you get the slurs to make the notes overlap in the piano roll for Infinite to notice the legato?


Right now, notation software is not officially supported. In their current form, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are collections of reactive real-time virtual instruments. They feed off of CC1 and Velocity input (further tweaked by other parameters) in order to create phrasing.

Garbage in = garbage out.

This means that the usual MIDI data generated by notation software will sound exactly like it—like garbage. You cannot tell the instruments to play a marcato articulation because there isn't one; you need to phrase it yourself. Doing so in notation software is beyond frustrating since you need to edit all the MIDI data with the mouse, and it's rarely as quick as you can do it in a DAW.

Or at least it used to be?

I've seen some great improvements in Dorico 4 with regards to this. I've also explored more of its Expression Maps functionality (I think the last time I checked it out it was version 2?). So I will be exploring the possibility of adding a full, notation compatible mode to Infinite in the future, starting most likely with Dorico.

Infinite Brass, since 1.6, plays nice along smoothed CC curves (the James Bond demo was done entirely like that). So if you want to use it in Dorico right now, you'd still have to do the work (or play it in, as I hear it's a viable option in version 4?) you normally would, but with the benefit of working from notation, and Infinite will play nicely with bezier curves in CC1 input. But in the future, I'll explore the possibility of making it so that you don't have to touch MIDI data at all (or at least as little as possible).


----------



## aaronventure

campovsky said:


> Hey, that’s a great library!


I like how your demo got clapped with YouTube ContentID and labeled as a performance by Orchestre philharmonique de Strasbourg. Almost a compliment, haha.


----------



## campovsky

aaronventure said:


> I like how your demo got clapped with YouTube ContentID and labeled as a performance by Orchestre philharmonique de Strasbourg. Almost a compliment, haha.


Indeed! And Instagram reckoned it was Lalo Schifrin 🤨


----------



## dyross

aaronventure said:


> Right now, notation software is not officially supported. In their current form, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are collections of reactive real-time virtual instruments. They feed off of CC1 and Velocity input (further tweaked by other parameters) in order to create phrasing.
> 
> Garbage in = garbage out.
> 
> This means that the usual MIDI data generated by notation software will sound exactly like it—like garbage. You cannot tell the instruments to play a marcato articulation because there isn't one; you need to phrase it yourself. Doing so in notation software is beyond frustrating since you need to edit all the MIDI data with the mouse, and it's rarely as quick as you can do it in a DAW.
> 
> Or at least it used to be?
> 
> I've seen some great improvements in Dorico 4 with regards to this. I've also explored more of its Expression Maps functionality (I think the last time I checked it out it was version 2?). So I will be exploring the possibility of adding a full, notation compatible mode to Infinite in the future, starting most likely with Dorico.


This is exciting!

A few ideas from this Dorico user that might help with this (you will likely have more extensive ideas, but thought I'd throw these out there):

Make velocity-controlled attacks absolute rather than relative compared with current expression. In Dorico, it's easy to say a hard attack is this velocity, a soft attack is this velocity, etc. - then Infinite could know you're playing a hard attack on a low dynamic, a hard attack on a high dynamic etc.
Something similar to velocity-based attacks for releases. Being able to trigger different types of releases would reduce at least one case of my significant CC drawing (see here).



aaronventure said:


> Infinite Brass, since 1.6, plays nice along smoothed CC curves (the James Bond demo was done entirely like that). So if you want to use it in Dorico right now, you'd still have to do the work (or play it in, as I hear it's a viable option in version 4?) you normally would, but with the benefit of working from notation, and Infinite will play nicely with bezier curves in CC1 input. But in the future, I'll explore the possibility of making it so that you don't have to touch MIDI data at all (or at least as little as possible).


Can you clarify if this is only IB and _not _IW? If so, what is this change and how does it work? (I'm curious because, so far, I just have IW.)


----------



## Juulu

For those with Infinite Woodwinds, would anyone be willing to mock something up for me? I'm currently working on a mockup of Rite of Battle from Genshin Impact and got halfway through it before thinking IW might be well suited for it. If anyone wants to take a stab at it I've attached my midi below. Also here's the track itself for reference.


*Edit: Forgot to mention that I'm using CSW for the woodwinds, so, when you see 2 long notes on top of each other those are trills. And I used IB and CSW for everything else.


----------



## El Buhdai

campovsky said:


> Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩



That has to be one of THE best sounds I've ever heard achieved with this library.


----------



## I like music

campovsky said:


> Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩



ooooof. that's nice!
which strings are you using here? i love also how it also feels nice and glued together. 
add much reverb and placement or did you leave it as it is mostly? i'm guess bersa with a touch of something else?


----------



## DANIELE

campovsky said:


> Just thought I’d share my crack at the Raiders March. Infinite Brass made this so much fun 🤩



Great use of IB, are you using IW too here?


----------



## campovsky

Thanks for all the kind words everyone! The strings are BBCSO and VSL Dimension Strings together. I have a cinematic rooms professional which attempts to put dry stuff into a similar space to BBC (DS, Pianoteq piano, harp and glock are all bone dry). IB is all on Mozarteum actually, as is IW (which, to answer another question, is doing all but the flute/piccolo which is BBC). Timps and untuned percussion is SD3 Orchestral SDX (with I think, zero added reverb, just the room they’re in).


----------



## I like music

campovsky said:


> Thanks for all the kind words everyone! The strings are BBCSO and VSL Dimension Strings together. I have a cinematic rooms professional which attempts to put dry stuff into a similar space to BBC (DS, Pianoteq piano, harp and glock are all bone dry). IB is all on Mozarteum actually, as is IW (which, to answer another question, is doing all but the flute/piccolo which is BBC). Timps and untuned percussion is SD3 Orchestral SDX (with I think, zero added reverb, just the room they’re in).


Fantastic, thank you! 
Mozarteum with no additional reverb? I always switch to Mozarteum and then switch back to Bersa, and then I forget what moz sounds like. 

Also just bought pianoteq so very excited for it!


----------



## dcgrp

aaronventure said:


> Right now, notation software is not officially supported. In their current form, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are collections of reactive real-time virtual instruments. They feed off of CC1 and Velocity input (further tweaked by other parameters) in order to create phrasing.
> 
> Garbage in = garbage out.
> 
> This means that the usual MIDI data generated by notation software will sound exactly like it—like garbage. You cannot tell the instruments to play a marcato articulation because there isn't one; you need to phrase it yourself. Doing so in notation software is beyond frustrating since you need to edit all the MIDI data with the mouse, and it's rarely as quick as you can do it in a DAW.
> 
> Or at least it used to be?
> 
> I've seen some great improvements in Dorico 4 with regards to this. I've also explored more of its Expression Maps functionality (I think the last time I checked it out it was version 2?). So I will be exploring the possibility of adding a full, notation compatible mode to Infinite in the future, starting most likely with Dorico.
> 
> Infinite Brass, since 1.6, plays nice along smoothed CC curves (the James Bond demo was done entirely like that). So if you want to use it in Dorico right now, you'd still have to do the work (or play it in, as I hear it's a viable option in version 4?) you normally would, but with the benefit of working from notation, and Infinite will play nicely with bezier curves in CC1 input. But in the future, I'll explore the possibility of making it so that you don't have to touch MIDI data at all (or at least as little as possible).


Thanks for the reply. I think I'll hold off on any Dorico implementation for now. Seems like it would be slower than working in a DAW. Maybe someday though.


----------



## aaronventure

dyross said:


> A few ideas from this Dorico user that might help with this (you will likely have more extensive ideas, but thought I'd throw these out there):
> 
> Make velocity-controlled attacks absolute rather than relative compared with current expression. In Dorico, it's easy to say a hard attack is this velocity, a soft attack is this velocity, etc. - then Infinite could know you're playing a hard attack on a low dynamic, a hard attack on a high dynamic etc.
> Something similar to velocity-based attacks for releases. Being able to trigger different types of releases would reduce at least one case of my significant CC drawing (see here).


Thanks, I'll note it down. 



dyross said:


> Can you clarify if this is only IB and _not _IW? If so, what is this change and how does it work? (I'm curious because, so far, I just have IW.)


In IW you could've always gotten away with this, woodwinds are a bit less sensitive to detailed phrasing compared to brass. This will continue to evolve. In the future update, I hope to be able to create an optional "assisted" mode with virtual lungs or something, which will help you out with natural phrasing of notes.



dcgrp said:


> Maybe someday though.


Yeah, that sure would be nice. Just import your scores and have Infinite play it back. Pick the room, the positions, dial in the mic mix and print it out.


----------



## Denkii

aaronventure said:


> In the future update, I hope to be able to create an optional "assisted" mode with virtual lungs or something, which will help you out with natural phrasing of notes.


While you're at it, create an optional mode with a virtual brain which will help me come up with better pieces.
Thank you so much.

Edit: In retrospect I might have sounded as if I was bashing that idea. I was not. I think it could be fun. Can't wait for the new lung capacity slider :D


----------



## campovsky

I like music said:


> Fantastic, thank you!
> Mozarteum with no additional reverb? I always switch to Mozarteum and then switch back to Bersa, and then I forget what moz sounds like.
> 
> Also just bought pianoteq so very excited for it!


I think it has a bit of the cinematic rooms on it too, but not much. I've usually always stuck to Bersa too, but checking against the original, Mozarteum felt better on this, and I think I might be less afraid of it in future (I have a general tendency toward dryer / cleaner / less reverby usually).
I love Pianoteq for all the same reasons as Infinite - every little change makes a difference!


----------



## obey

Juulu said:


> For those with Infinite Woodwinds, would anyone be willing to mock something up for me? I'm currently working on a mockup of Rite of Battle from Genshin Impact and got halfway through it before thinking IW might be well suited for it. If anyone wants to take a stab at it I've attached my midi below. Also here's the track itself for reference.
> 
> 
> *Edit: Forgot to mention that I'm using CSW for the woodwinds, so, when you see 2 long notes on top of each other those are trills. And I used IB and CSW for everything else.



I'm not very skilled and I don't have a ton of time, but I can try and rough out a couple sections and see if they give you any idea of the sound irrespective of my talents as a player because I love both the Infinite series and Yu Peng Cheng's astounding Genshen Impact soundtrack, haha.

Since you own IB, do you have a particular hall and mic balance you'd like used for your mix setup? Mozarteum, perhaps? Or would you prefer something dry like the Studio you can place yourself. In any case I'll look at the parts and see if I can do anything like justice to some of it.


----------



## El Buhdai

campovsky said:


> I think it has a bit of the cinematic rooms on it too, but not much. I've usually always stuck to Bersa too, but checking against the original, Mozarteum felt better on this, and I think I might be less afraid of it in future (I have a general tendency toward dryer / cleaner / less reverby usually).
> I love Pianoteq for all the same reasons as Infinite - every little change makes a difference!


I have a very boring question. What harp library did you use for this mockup?

Less boringly, am I the only one who uses Mozerteum almost exclusively? Am I missing out by not using Bersa? Very curious as to why folks loved that one. I guess I assumed (wrongly) that my choice was most popular. Interested in hearing the thoughts and reasoning behind this for you guys!


----------



## I like music

Denkii said:


> While you're at it, create an optional mode with a virtual brain which will help me come up with better pieces.
> Thank you so





El Buhdai said:


> I have a very boring question. What harp library did you use for this mockup?
> 
> Less boringly, am I the only one who uses Mozerteum almost exclusively? Am I missing out by not using Bersa? Very curious as to why folks loved that one. I guess I assumed (wrongly) that my choice was most popular. Interested in hearing the thoughts and reasoning behind this for you guys!


I did a poll, and Bersa was by far the most popular. I'm supposing because it gives more flexibility to dial in your own hall.


----------



## campovsky

El Buhdai said:


> I have a very boring question. What harp library did you use for this mockup?
> 
> Less boringly, am I the only one who uses Mozerteum almost exclusively? Am I missing out by not using Bersa? Very curious as to why folks loved that one. I guess I assumed (wrongly) that my choice was most popular. Interested in hearing the thoughts and reasoning behind this for you guys!


Harp was Pianoteq.

Picked Mozarteum for this one because it just felt best next to the natural ambience in BBCSO.


----------



## El Buhdai

I like music said:


> I did a poll, and Bersa was by far the most popular. I'm supposing because it gives more flexibility to dial in your own hall.


That's crazy! Can't say that the reasoning behind it doesn't make sense though. Was the poll in this thread or a separate one that I can find the link for? Curious about the results.


campovsky said:


> Harp was Pianoteq.
> 
> Picked Mozarteum for this one because it just felt best next to the natural ambience in BBCSO.


Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Trash Panda

El Buhdai said:


> Less boringly, am I the only one who uses Mozerteum almost exclusively? Am I missing out by not using Bersa? Very curious as to why folks loved that one. I guess I assumed (wrongly) that my choice was most popular. Interested in hearing the thoughts and reasoning behind this for you guys!


Mozarteum is understandable because reverb helps to cover up the warts. 

I look at venue selection based on the type of atmosphere and other instruments involved.

Studio: exclusively for very dry, very close applications where you would not expect a large sense of space or distance, such as pop, jazz, rock/metal, big band, etc.
Bersa: scoring stage type of feel for blending with other medium-sized spaced libraries (CSS, TSS, Audio Imperia, CinePerc, etc.)
Mozarteum: More classical or large space type of feel or for blending with wetter libraries (AROOF, Arks, etc.).


----------



## Juulu

obey said:


> I'm not very skilled and I don't have a ton of time, but I can try and rough out a couple sections and see if they give you any idea of the sound irrespective of my talents as a player because I love both the Infinite series and Yu Peng Cheng's astounding Genshen Impact soundtrack, haha.
> 
> Since you own IB, do you have a particular hall and mic balance you'd like used for your mix setup? Mozarteum, perhaps? Or would you prefer something dry like the Studio you can place yourself. In any case I'll look at the parts and see if I can do anything like justice to some of it.


Thank you! Maybe Bersa or Mozarteum since they're both similar to the size of the stage the OST was recorded in? Any hall will work fine though honestly. I'm mostly interested in how the instruments will play rather than how they sound if that makes any sense.


----------



## I like music

I had started another thread with a poll. Sample size was small but most were bersa. Will see if I can find it!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Juulu, here's a very quick and rough mock-up of the first half of Rite of Battle. Might spend some more time on it at some point. I hope some others give it a shot as well because it can sound very different depending on who's using the libraries. They are very flexible.

View attachment IW -- Rite of Battle_001-001.mp3


----------



## Trash Panda

Juulu said:


> For those with Infinite Woodwinds, would anyone be willing to mock something up for me? I'm currently working on a mockup of Rite of Battle from Genshin Impact and got halfway through it before thinking IW might be well suited for it. If anyone wants to take a stab at it I've attached my midi below. Also here's the track itself for reference.
> 
> 
> *Edit: Forgot to mention that I'm using CSW for the woodwinds, so, when you see 2 long notes on top of each other those are trills. And I used IB and CSW for everything else.



Here you go. I mostly left the MIDI as is other than turning down CC11 on the trumpet to 64 after it nearly tore my ears off. 

Only processing is Pro-L2 to bring the overall volume up.

View attachment Rite of Battle IWW Test.mp3


----------



## ansthenia

I love how Mozarteum affects the timbre of the instruments much more than Bersa and Studio, I just dislike the length of the reverb tail. I don't suppose this tail can be shortened or removed?


----------



## Juulu

Jonathan Moray said:


> @Juulu, here's a very quick and rough mock-up of the first half of Rite of Battle. Might spend some more time on it at some point. I hope some others give it a shot as well because it can sound very different depending on who's using the libraries. They are very flexible.
> 
> View attachment IW -- Rite of Battle_001-001.mp3





Trash Panda said:


> Here you go. I mostly left the MIDI as is other than turning down CC11 on the trumpet to 64 after it nearly tore my ears off.
> 
> Only processing is Pro-L2 to bring the overall volume up.
> 
> View attachment Rite of Battle IWW Test.mp3


Wow, thank you both so much. Ya, it's just as I thought, it does play very well with IW. I bet I could get a lot closer to the timings of the actual recording with IW than I can with what I'm using. However, I will admit it doesn't sound as natural as CSW. I imagine that could be dialed if given more time. I can't wait for future updates.


----------



## Zanshin

ansthenia said:


> I love how Mozarteum affects the timbre of the instruments much more than Bersa and Studio, I just dislike the length of the reverb tail. I don't suppose this tail can be shortened or removed?


+1

I would love if a IR length control was added. I shorten the IRs in MIR, for example, all the time. It would be a very useful addition.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Juulu said:


> Wow, thank you both so much. Ya, it's just as I thought, it does play very well with IW. I bet I could get a lot closer to the timings of the actual recording with IW than I can with what I'm using. However, I will admit it doesn't sound as natural as CSW. I imagine that could be dialed if given more time. I can't wait for future updates.


Maybe. One of the main drawbacks of the Infinite Series, especially woodwinds, is the sound. It's just not quite "there" yet. I too always look forward to future updates to see what wizardry Aaron will show us next. The brass on the other hand is almost completely there for me.

Shaping the performance is easy but I've still not found a way to mix IW to make it sound the way I want. Still worth every penny.


----------



## Mike Stone

Jonathan Moray said:


> Maybe. One of the main drawbacks of the Infinite Series, especially woodwinds, is the sound. It's just not quite "there" yet. I too always look forward to future updates to see what wizardry Aaron will show us next. The brass on the other hand is almost completely there for me.
> 
> Shaping the performance is easy but I've still not found a way to mix IW to make it sound the way I want. Still worth every penny.


I read that Aaron is planning on an update to IW, implementing the improvements that he added to IB 1.6 (IW 2.0 was released about a year earlier). He's probably busy with Infinite Strings right now, but hopefully that IW update isn't too far away.


----------



## Robert_G

Is it safe to come into this thread and ask about an approx release for the Strings?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Mike Stone said:


> I read that Aaron is planning on an update to IW, implementing the improvements that he added to IB 1.6 (IW 2.0 was released about a year earlier). He's probably busy with Infinite Strings right now, but hopefully that IW update isn't too far away.


Yeah, there are updates coming for all the libraries, as usual, there's just no timeframe... as usual. IW 2.0 was like a total redo of the library and I doubt we will see something like that for 2.1 or whatever version number the next update will get. But it's not needed, only minor changes to nail the sound.

I hope he's working on Infinite Strings, the other libraries are good enough as they are for the time being and I rather have the strings by now because it's getting tedious using other libraries to supplement Infinite. But I also rather he take his time and do them properly and doesn't burn himself out by pushing.

He's probably learnt a lot by doing the strings so the coming updates will probably be pretty great.


----------



## I like music

Robert_G said:


> Is it safe to come into this thread and ask about an approx release for the Strings?


Utterly unsafe! 

Seems Aaron isn't touching any questions to do with the Strings right now. So we don't really have an approximate time frame. 

Hopefully they'll just drop out of the blue! But no, otherwise there's silence on the matter.


----------



## Trash Panda

@aaronventure I know strings talk is not happening and they will get here when they get here. 

Should we hold out hope for a WW update along the lines of the Brass 1.6 update for this year?


----------



## obey

Juulu said:


> Thank you! Maybe Bersa or Mozarteum since they're both similar to the size of the stage the OST was recorded in? Any hall will work fine though honestly. I'm mostly interested in how the instruments will play rather than how they sound if that makes any sense.


Ended up with Bersa because it kinda matched the space/tail in the recording more-- I just focused in on the leading Bass Clarinet ostinato figure because it was easy enough for my sausage fingers to pick up and tinker with-- I punched up some saturation to get it to come up so you can hear the little nuances in the sound but other than that it's just IW. A little growl (like 10-15% or so), bring up the close mics some to bring us in closer to the instrument, lowered the dynamic range to bring me in even closer to the horn bell (I wanna smell the finish they used in the wood and hear that lovely rattle a bass woodwind gives off), lower velocity playing with really short marcatos and high dynamics slider to bring more of that hair out of the glorious honk of a bass clarinet. I probably went a little too overboard but I wanted to see how close I could get to the recording tone. I'm also very new at the Infinite series so I've got a LOT to learn about how to mold the sound as well. This was fun, though- thanks for the prompt!

@Trash Panda did a great job and I dare say @Jonathan Moray really nailed the vibe. I'd say I wasted my time if I didn't have so much fun with these instruments and this soundtrack.


----------



## Juulu

obey said:


> Ended up with Bersa because it kinda matched the space/tail in the recording more-- I just focused in on the leading Bass Clarinet ostinato figure because it was easy enough for my sausage fingers to pick up and tinker with-- I punched up some saturation to get it to come up so you can hear the little nuances in the sound but other than that it's just IW. A little growl (like 10-15% or so), bring up the close mics some to bring us in closer to the instrument, lowered the dynamic range to bring me in even closer to the horn bell (I wanna smell the finish they used in the wood and hear that lovely rattle a bass woodwind gives off), lower velocity playing with really short marcatos and high dynamics slider to bring more of that hair out of the glorious honk of a bass clarinet. I probably went a little too overboard but I wanted to see how close I could get to the recording tone. I'm also very new at the Infinite series so I've got a LOT to learn about how to mold the sound as well. This was fun, though- thanks for the prompt!
> 
> @Trash Panda did a great job and I dare say @Jonathan Moray really nailed the vibe. I'd say I wasted my time if I didn't have so much fun with these instruments and this soundtrack.


No problem. I think some of the music in Genshin is great for showing off woodwind libraries since Yu-Peng Chen seems to write with them in mind pretty often. And thank you for making that demo. I've been trying to hold back my thirst for IW, but now I think I can afford to wait. At least until another update comes out that makes IW better than it already is.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Here's the full version. I spent a little more time on it, but still a pretty quick ordeal. I tried to EQ match the Flute, Oboe, and Cor Anglais (English Horn).

View attachment IW -- Rite of Battle_001-002.mp3


----------



## Mike Stone

Juulu said:


> No problem. I think some of the music in Genshin is great for showing off woodwind libraries since Yu-Peng Chen seems to write with them in mind pretty often. And thank you for making that demo. I've been trying to hold back my thirst for IW, but now I think I can afford to wait. At least until another update comes out that makes IW better than it already is.


IW is still very good library. I'm happy my with purchase (unlike some other libraries I've gotten recently), and the playability is just about the best on the market afaik. With IW you can make convincing complex lines very quickly, say for a flute, obo, clarinet etc. And there are more free updates and improvements coming in the future. But yeah, IW is a bit more uneven than IB. However, there are few all-around excellent wind instrument sample libraries out there tbh, the best is probably CSW, which has its own share of issues. For me, getting both IW and IB is a no-brainer.


----------



## jbuhler

campovsky said:


> Indeed! And Instagram reckoned it was Lalo Schifrin 🤨


Inspires steal confidence in the content ID algorithm!


----------



## Juulu

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's the full version. I spent a little more time on it, but still a pretty quick ordeal. I tried to EQ match the Flute, Oboe, and Cor Anglais (English Horn).
> 
> View attachment IW -- Rite of Battle_001-002.mp3


Oh my god. See why did you have to do that? Now I'm not so sure I wanna wait haha. Anyone know how much IW costs after crossgrade lol?


Mike Stone said:


> IW is still very good library. I'm happy my with purchase (unlike some other libraries I've gotten recently), and the playability is just about the best on the market afaik. With IW you can make convincing complex lines very quickly, say for a flute, obo, clarinet etc. And there are more free updates and improvements coming in the future. But yeah, IW is a bit more uneven than IB. However, there are few all-around excellent wind instrument sample libraries out there tbh, the best is probably CSW, which has its own share of issues. For me, getting both IW and IB is a no-brainer.


Oh, I definitely agree. Part of the problem for me is that I feel I'm starting to accrue too many libraries haha. Also, CSW does some heavy lifting for a lot of my tracks (especially before I got CSS), so I think my needs are mostly settled. I just wish they had a more performance style like IB/IW because I think that's the easiest/ most expressive way to make music. For reference, this is what my version sounded like with CSS

View attachment Rite of Battle Mockup.mp3


I think that if IW reaches a more natural tone like this (although it still sounds sampled) it'll blow every other library out of the water.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Juulu said:


> Oh my god. See why did you have to do that? Now I'm not so sure I wanna wait haha. Anyone know how much IW costs after crossgrade lol?
> 
> Oh, I definitely agree. Part of the problem for me is that I feel I'm starting to accrue too many libraries haha. Also, CSW does some heavy lifting for a lot of my tracks (especially before I got CSS), so I think my needs are mostly settled. I just wish they had a more performance style like IB/IW because I think that's the easiest/ most expressive way to make music. For reference, this is what my version sounded like with CSS
> 
> View attachment Rite of Battle Mockup.mp3
> 
> 
> I think that if IW reaches a more natural tone like this (although it still sounds sampled) it'll blow every other library out of the water.


Generally, I like the tone better in your example, but I generally like my performance much better. And that's not so strange since the work your doing by having to force the pre-recorded performances of CSW to work with the music is not easy. And I think you did very well, but there are just certain things in the performance that I don't like - the vibrato for example, certain legato transitions, etc. I can also hear the doubling in some of the leagtos where they crossfade.

If you do plan on buying the library, buy it for what it is now, not for what it might be in the future. This applies to all library purchases.


----------



## Trash Panda

Juulu said:


> Oh my god. See why did you have to do that? Now I'm not so sure I wanna wait haha. Anyone know how much IW costs after crossgrade lol?


It should be the difference in price of the IWW/IB bundle minus what you’ve already paid for IB. You can email Aaron through his website to get the discount.


----------



## Juulu

Trash Panda said:


> It should be the difference in price of the IWW/IB bundle minus what you’ve already paid for IB. You can email Aaron through his website to get the discount.


Thanks


----------



## El Buhdai

Trash Panda said:


> Mozarteum is understandable because reverb helps to cover up the warts.


I guess for me it's mainly been because I prefer wetter brass and typically don't consider going smaller for my orchestra in general. And honestly? In my opinion the Mozerteum actually exacerbates the issues with the library because it contributes to the resonance in the low mids for most of Infinite's entire roster. I still use it cause there's just something so, so sweet about those releases though...


----------



## Zane Smith

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's the full version. I spent a little more time on it, but still a pretty quick ordeal. I tried to EQ match the Flute, Oboe, and Cor Anglais (English Horn).
> 
> View attachment IW -- Rite of Battle_001-002.mp3


Holy hell this sounds incredible! I'd love to see the EQ curves you put on each instrument, this is quite literally the woodwind sound I absolutely love.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Zane Smith said:


> Holy hell this sounds incredible! I'd love to see the EQ curves you put on each instrument, this is quite literally the woodwind sound I absolutely love.


Thanks, glad you like it. It's minimally mixed:

I raised the high-end on most instruments to get some more breathiness and a little bit more of the click noise. As well as removed some low-end on some of them since I used the closes mic mix and felt they became too bottom heavy. The EQ match is set to a very low value (something like 20-25%) and it basically just softened up the sound by removing some of the 2k, but pushing it too hard made the instruments too soft in my opinion, so I opted for a much more subtle effect. Also a very subtle longer, more stylised reverb on top of it all at about 10% wetness, not even sure if it's that audible.

So not exactly out of the box but not too much work to get this sound, and the EQ match is very subtle and could very well just be skipped entirely.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Hello everyone,

Until now I didn't care too much about the ratios of sound intensity between the instruments in my arrangements: if it sounds that was the main thing. But now that I'm trying to make more "realistic" orchestrations, I wanted to know if, in your opinion, the infinit series respected these differences in relative sound levels between the instruments.


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> Should we hold out hope for a WW update along the lines of the Brass 1.6 update for this year?


I hope.



pierrevigneron said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Until now I didn't care too much about the ratios of sound intensity between the instruments in my arrangements: if it sounds that was the main thing. But now that I'm trying to make more "realistic" orchestrations, I wanted to know if, in your opinion, the infinit series respected these differences in relative sound levels between the instruments.


Unless stated otherwise in the "MORE" page, the demos on the website feature no relative volume changes between instruments. 

If you're trying to get the balance down based on a recording, make sure to know the seating spec as well. Brass loudness can vary a few dB based on if they were seated in the same radial as the woodwinds (some studio setups), or behind on a step (like it might be the case in some concert halls; no noticeable difference for the audience but there is a tiny one for the mics on stage). So in the demos you'll find brass being louder or quieter 1-2 dB, depending on the original reference that I was going for. 

The Rite is pretty much all woodwinds, if you think that sounds balanced, then there you go. The brass-woodwinds relationship is pretty close but as I said, I think a change of +/- 1-2dB is entirely subjective.


----------



## I like music

aaronventure said:


> I hope.
> 
> 
> Unless stated otherwise in the "MORE" page, the demos on the website feature no relative volume changes between instruments.
> 
> If you're trying to get the balance down based on a recording, make sure to know the seating spec as well. Brass loudness can vary a few dB based on if they were seated in the same radial as the woodwinds (some studio setups), or behind on a step (like it might be the case in some concert halls; no noticeable difference for the audience but there is a tiny one for the mics on stage). So in the demos you'll find brass being louder or quieter 1-2 dB, depending on the original reference that I was going for.
> 
> The Rite is pretty much all woodwinds, if you think that sounds balanced, then there you go. The brass-woodwinds relationship is pretty close but as I said, I think a change of +/- 1-2dB is entirely subjective.


Strings are also within 1-2dB?

(We'll get him, boys)


----------



## pierrevigneron

in fact I was asking myself this question because I thought that it could have an educational interest when making mockups. as long as it sounds it's ok but when you want to make a model for a real orchestra it can be interesting to hear any sound imbalances directly in the model. in fact I was asking myself this question for the infinite series but I also ask myself it in general for any library


----------



## Jonathan Moray

pierrevigneron said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Until now I didn't care too much about the ratios of sound intensity between the instruments in my arrangements: if it sounds that was the main thing. But now that I'm trying to make more "realistic" orchestrations, I wanted to know if, in your opinion, the infinit series respected these differences in relative sound levels between the instruments.


That's a really tough question because it depends heavily on what you use as a reference.

Do you mean the difference you would hear in real life when conducting an orchestra? Or the difference in perceived loudness you would hear when recording with only a single decca tree? Or do mean a specific recording? Because all of those will sound different. Most recordings nowadays seem to have at least section specific mic setups unless it's a "live" recording i.e. recorded at like a live concert where there are no redos. But for a professional score, they mix those sections together with the decca and room mics (and whatever other mics were used during the recording) to get a good balance for all the instruments and throughout a lot of scores that mix changes depending on what's needed.

As an example, woodwinds can be pretty quiet in certain ranges and might need to be mixed louder in certain passages to actually be heard well over the other sections, while the brass might be too loud.

All of this also depends on the room and how the different instruments excite the room in different ways.


----------



## shawnsingh

I have very little knowledge of how recording and mixing engineers usually treat traditional orchestral recordings... but I have a strong sneaking suspicion that there is far more mix automation than people would expect, adjusting levels across sections, but also adjusting close-mic or ORTF-mic levels of different sections in different parts of the music.

On the opposite extreme, playing in real orchestras many many years ago, I know it was extremely common for conductors to ask different sections to play impossibly louder or impossibly quieter than their usual natural tendency - if you could call that a form of mixing too, and players do their best to oblige.

These thoughts give me a bit more peace of mind with the idea of varying CC11 or CC7 volume (Edit, no, don't use CC7, see discussion below) along with CC1 dynamics to get a balance that seems correct to my ear. Hope it might be some comfort for others too


----------



## Jonathan Moray

shawnsingh said:


> I have very little knowledge of how recording and mixing engineers usually treat traditional orchestral recordings... but I have a strong sneaking suspicion that there is far more mix automation than people would expect, adjusting levels across sections, but also adjusting close-mic or ORTF-mic levels of different sections in different parts of the music.
> 
> On the opposite extreme, playing in real orchestras many many years ago, I know it was extremely common for conductors to ask different sections to play impossibly louder or impossibly quieter than their usual natural tendency - if you could call that a form of mixing too, and players do their best to oblige.
> 
> These thoughts give me a bit more peace of mind with the idea of varying CC11 or CC7 volume along with CC1 dynamics to get a balance that seems correct to my ear. Hope it might be some comfort for others too


Exactly. One thing I would add to this: I personally would rather use CC11 than CC7 since I believe CC7 is changing the volume after the reverb meaning if you lower the CC7 you will also change the volume of the reverb while it's ringing out which might not be something that's always desirable. I'm not 100% about this though.

Here's a quick example that I used a couple of months ago. The shifting of the trumpets @6s is rather obvious. The trumpets go from a rather centred, upfront sound to a much more panned and distant sound when they start doing the quick reps. You can find these types of mix movements all over scores, most are not as obvious as this one, but they are there.

This might help some not to be afraid of changing the mix throughout. There's no right or wrong. Listen to some of those "Epic Celtic Orchestral" tracks that were really popular on YouTube some years ago. They had penny whistles and flutes playing quick agile melodies over blaring brass while the strings usually play quick spiccatos that are heard clearly over all the bombastic drums. Not a lot of people complained about that. But for a more realistic sound, listen to recordings of either concerts or scores that you know try and keep a more natural tone, or generally just older scores.

View attachment The Trench Run - The Way of the Force (2021-11-30_1047).mp3


----------



## Luka

Jonathan Moray said:


> Exactly. One thing I would add to this: I personally would rather use CC11 than CC7 since I believe CC7 is changing the volume after the reverb meaning if you lower the CC7 you will also change the volume of the reverb while it's ringing out which might not be something that's always desirable. I'm not 100% about this though.
> 
> Here's a quick example that I used a couple of months ago. The shifting of the trumpets @6s is rather obvious. The trumpets go from a rather centred, upfront sound to a much more panned and distant sound when they start doing the quick reps. You can find these types of mix movements all over scores, most are not as obvious as this one, but they are there.
> 
> This might help some not to be afraid of changing the mix throughout. There's no right or wrong. Listen to some of those "Epic Celtic Orchestral" tracks that were really popular on YouTube some years ago. They had penny whistles and flutes playing quick agile melodies over blaring brass while the strings usually play quick spiccatos that are heard clearly over all the bombastic drums. Not a lot of people complained about that. But for a more realistic sound, listen to recordings of either concerts or scores that you know try and keep a more natural tone, or generally just older scores.
> 
> View attachment The Trench Run - The Way of the Force (2021-11-30_1047).mp3


Where can we hear the full version of that? It sounds amazing! And which libraries did you use?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Luka said:


> Where can we hear the full version of that? It sounds amazing! And which libraries did you use?


No, no. I'm sorry to disappoint but this is "The Trench Run" by John Williams mixed by Shawn Murphy from The Force Awakens. I wish I could write and mix like this, but for me, one lifetime is not enough for that. It was just to show how in the scores we hear every day they change the mix from moment to moment depending on what's needed.

I did make a small attempt at the brass parts when I first posted this a few months ago. I wanted to get the crisp-ness that the original score had. The trumpet reps are way too slow in my version though. Either way, here it is.

View attachment IB -- The Trench Run (2021-11-30_2345)-001.mp3


----------



## Luka

Jonathan Moray said:


> No, no. I'm sorry to disappoint but this is "The Trench Run" by John Williams mixed by Shawn Murphy from The Force Awakens


Oh that's why it was too good to be true! haha After posting my comment, I realized it probably wasn't a mockup after all haha.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Luka said:


> Oh that's why it was too good to be true! haha After posting my comment, I realized it probably wasn't a mockup after all haha.


I wish it was true as much as anyone. Maybe one day.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Exactly. One thing I would add to this: I personally would rather use CC11 than CC7 since I believe CC7 is changing the volume after the reverb meaning if you lower the CC7 you will also change the volume of the reverb while it's ringing out which might not be something that's always desirable. I'm not 100% about this though.
> 
> Here's a quick example that I used a couple of months ago. The shifting of the trumpets @6s is rather obvious. The trumpets go from a rather centred, upfront sound to a much more panned and distant sound when they start doing the quick reps. You can find these types of mix movements all over scores, most are not as obvious as this one, but they are there.
> 
> This might help some not to be afraid of changing the mix throughout. There's no right or wrong. Listen to some of those "Epic Celtic Orchestral" tracks that were really popular on YouTube some years ago. They had penny whistles and flutes playing quick agile melodies over blaring brass while the strings usually play quick spiccatos that are heard clearly over all the bombastic drums. Not a lot of people complained about that. But for a more realistic sound, listen to recordings of either concerts or scores that you know try and keep a more natural tone, or generally just older scores.
> 
> View attachment The Trench Run - The Way of the Force (2021-11-30_1047).mp3


Are you able to tell us more about the cc7 thing here? 

So basically, since that changes the instrument volume at source, the signal going into the reverb changes, and so the ratio between the original signal and the reverb alters? 

I'm not quite sure what is being said but super curios as I've recently started using cc7 in conjunction with modulation...


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I like music said:


> Are you able to tell us more about the cc7 thing here?
> 
> So basically, since that changes the instrument volume at source, the signal going into the reverb changes, and so the ratio between the original signal and the reverb alters?
> 
> I'm not quite sure what is being said but super curios as I've recently started using cc7 in conjunction with modulation...


Alright, so CC7 changes the "Instrument" level in Kontakt (usually). This means the whole instrument volume. That's why you see this change when you move CC7.






That slide is the instrument volume.

_Sidenote: By instrument, I don't mean the Infinite instrument, I mean what Kontakt calls an instrument which is just the container of the samples, script, and everything else. This is what Kontakt calls an instrument._






And when you change the Kontakt instrument level that means that ALL the sound coming out of the instrument changes - even the lingering reverb tail. If you were to have the reverb in the FX tab in Kontakt (outside of the instrument itself) then it wouldn't matter, but the reverb is under the hood of the instrument. But when you change CC11 you move the internal volume before the reverb.

You could basically look at it like this: CC1 changes the volume of the dynamics layers so that they fade into each other while CC11 moves all of those layers together as a group before it goes into the reverb and then CC7 moves all of the sound coming out of the instrument.

It's a rather rudimentary explanation but it gets the gist across. I hope I made it a little bit clearer.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> Alright, so CC7 changes the "Instrument" level in Kontakt (usually). This means the whole instrument volume. That's why you see this change when you move CC7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That slide is the instrument volume.
> 
> _Sidenote: By instrument, I don't mean the Infinite instrument, I mean what Kontakt calls an instrument which is just the container of the samples, script, and everything else. This is what Kontakt calls an instrument._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And when you change the Kontakt instrument level that means that ALL the sound coming out of the instrument changes - even the lingering reverb tail. If you were to have the reverb in the FX tab in Kontakt (outside of the instrument itself) then it wouldn't matter, but the reverb is under the hood of the instrument. But when you change CC11 you move the internal volume before the reverb.
> 
> You could basically look at it like this: CC1 changes the volume of the dynamics layers so that they fade into each other while CC11 moves all of those layers together as a group before it goes into the reverb and then CC7 moves all of the sound coming out of the instrument.
> 
> It's a rather rudimentary explanation but it gets the gist across. I hope I made it a little bit clearer.


Thanks so much for the explanation! Reckon I'm going to try with CC11 on a mockup I'm doing as we speak and see how it sounds! Thanks a ton!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@I like music, here's a quick example of one might be better than the other:

CC11

View attachment CC11.mp3


CC7

View attachment CC7.mp3


MIDI






As you can hopefully hear, if you change CC7 too quickly it's very obvious that it changes the volume of anything coming out of the Kontakt instrument. In this case, I did a crescendo and then first change the CC11 after it reached its peak and then I did the same thing but change CC7 instead.

If you want a crescendo and then complete silence as if the sound has been sucked out of the track, then you can use CC11 it's quite effective right before a drop. It's also a very common technique in Electronic music to give more contrast once everything kicks back in. But it's always good to know what both do so you can make an informed decision on which to use and when.


----------



## shawnsingh

Jonathan Moray said:


> Alright, so CC7 changes the "Instrument" level in Kontakt (usually). This means the whole instrument volume. That's why you see this change when you move CC7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That slide is the instrument volume.
> 
> _Sidenote: By instrument, I don't mean the Infinite instrument, I mean what Kontakt calls an instrument which is just the container of the samples, script, and everything else. This is what Kontakt calls an instrument._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And when you change the Kontakt instrument level that means that ALL the sound coming out of the instrument changes - even the lingering reverb tail. If you were to have the reverb in the FX tab in Kontakt (outside of the instrument itself) then it wouldn't matter, but the reverb is under the hood of the instrument. But when you change CC11 you move the internal volume before the reverb.
> 
> You could basically look at it like this: CC1 changes the volume of the dynamics layers so that they fade into each other while CC11 moves all of those layers together as a group before it goes into the reverb and then CC7 moves all of the sound coming out of the instrument.
> 
> It's a rather rudimentary explanation but it gets the gist across. I hope I made it a little bit clearer.


scratched out the CC7 mention on my post. Good call!


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> @I like music, here's a quick example of one might be better than the other:
> 
> CC11
> 
> View attachment CC11.mp3
> 
> 
> CC7
> 
> View attachment CC7.mp3
> 
> 
> MIDI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can hopefully hear, if you change CC7 too quickly it's very obvious that it changes the volume of anything coming out of the Kontakt instrument. In this case, I did a crescendo and then first change the CC11 after it reached its peak and then I did the same thing but change CC7 instead.
> 
> If you want a crescendo and then complete silence as if the sound has been sucked out of the track, then you can use CC11 it's quite effective right before a drop. It's also a very common technique in Electronic music to give more contrast once everything kicks back in. But it's always good to know what both do so you can make an informed decision on which to use and when.


Fantastic illustration, thank you!


----------



## Juulu

Luka said:


> Oh that's why it was too good to be true! haha After posting my comment, I realized it probably wasn't a mockup after all haha.


Well, you can get pretty close in terms of performance. I did this with a quick sketch out of my template.

View attachment Trench Run Test.mp3


----------



## monochrome

do any reaper users know how to mess with the functions of the sustain pedal? Is there a way to have the sustain pedal actually sustain notes in Infinite, rather than function as a switch for Legato Bypass (or anything else)?

I wasn't sure how to explain properly so I just made a video. thanks in advance!


----------



## Juulu

monochrome said:


> do any reaper users know how to mess with the functions of the sustain pedal? Is there a way to have the sustain pedal actually sustain notes in Infinite, rather than function as a switch for Legato Bypass (or anything else)?
> 
> I wasn't sure how to explain properly so I just made a video. thanks in advance!



Ive wondered this as well. I imagine it would be a more useful feature for Infinite Strings so you can play more lyrically. Im not a reaper user though, so, if anyone has a fix for cubase as well please let me know.


----------



## wfordmusic

Hey all! I just wanted to share a couple cues I made using Infinite Brass. Hope you guys enjoy!


----------



## I like music

wfordmusic said:


> Hey all! I just wanted to share a couple cues I made using Infinite Brass. Hope you guys enjoy!



These are excellent! Nice writing and great phrasing. 

Would love to see the midi for that last trumpet phrase haha.


----------



## wfordmusic

I like music said:


> These are excellent! Nice writing and great phrasing.
> 
> Would love to see the midi for that last trumpet phrase haha.


From the first one or the second one? I can post a screenshot here real quick!


----------



## I like music

wfordmusic said:


> From the first one or the second one? I can post a screenshot here real quick!


The second one. Screenshot would be wonderful!


----------



## wfordmusic

I like music said:


> The second one. Screenshot would be wonderful!


I’ll send the screenshots when I get off work. Basically, I just played the line and did the shakes with the pitch wheel on Trumpet 1, and then pasted it to Trumpet 2 an octave below (out of laziness, lmao) and adjusted the pitch wheel data a bit. The results were very surprising.


----------



## Bee_Abney

wfordmusic said:


> Hey all! I just wanted to share a couple cues I made using Infinite Brass. Hope you guys enjoy!



Those are both excellent. Very full on, fast and energetic, but not dully so. There is still some variation in the dynamics of the brass. Very nice.


----------



## wfordmusic

I like music said:


> These are excellent! Nice writing and great phrasing.
> 
> Would love to see the midi for that last trumpet phrase haha.


Here is the MIDI for the very last trumpet line in the Henchmen cue! As I said before, it's just the first and second Trumpets with pitch bend.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

wfordmusic said:


> Hey all! I just wanted to share a couple cues I made using Infinite Brass. Hope you guys enjoy!



These are wonderful! I enjoyed listening to them very much.


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Good day, everyone! I wanted to share with you this recent piece of mine. It is a grand fanfare that heavily features Infinite Brass.



Infinite Brass makes my life so much easier when it comes to sequencing passages like this. I actually managed to convince one of my colleagues to get the Infinite Brass & Winds libraries as well.


----------



## Bee_Abney

Ethan Toavs said:


> Good day, everyone! I wanted to share with you this recent piece of mine. It is a grand fanfare that heavily features Infinite Brass.
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Brass makes my life so much easier when it comes to sequencing passages like this. I actually managed to convince one of my colleagues to get the Infinite Brass & Winds libraries as well.



You've done something pretty special here. It's not perfect, but you've come close to something that goes beyond merely executing ideas well. The transitions are abrupt, but not jarring - that's good and lovely; and cinematic. There are some notes that seem to be somewhat - not misplayed, but misblown? or expressively blown. I love that. At least one such example is repeated (when the melody repeats) and so is clearly intentional. What makes this so very interesting is the way that there is somehow both a perfect fit and a mismatch between composition and orchestration. One is modern while the other classic, and then they switch places. So, it feels like an update on romanticism.

I'm utterly delighted! Congratulations!

When I say it is not perfect, this is possibly partly just about the limits of using sample libraries when you are pushing them in distinctive directions, and possibly just a matter of mixing/mastering. I'm not sure. My overall impression is that it is slightly unfinished, but wonderfully inspiring.

Also, much as I'm a republican at heart (as in, rule by the people; not by a monarch), I love princesses, and would love to swan about in pretty dresses, eating plum pudding and falling asleep at spinning wheels. And who doesn't love unicorns? Who? Fascists, that's who! (And possibly zoologists dealing with wild non-theories advanced by cryptozoologists.)

There is a triumphalist feel about this. That can be a very bad thing - a false sense of being wonderful. But it can also be a well-deserved celebration of virtue overcoming wickedness. You know, like when being unfailingly polite wears down someone looking for a fight. Or the defeat of Sauron. That kind of thing. (In my head, these are the same.)


----------



## Ethan Toavs

Bee_Abney said:


> You've done something pretty special here. It's not perfect, but you've come close to something that goes beyond merely executing ideas well. The transitions are abrupt, but not jarring - that's good and lovely; and cinematic. There are some notes that seem to be somewhat - not misplayed, but misblown? or expressively blown. I love that. At least one such example is repeated (when the melody repeats) and so is clearly intentional. What makes this so very interesting is the way that there is somehow both a perfect fit and a mismatch between composition and orchestration. One is modern while the other classic, and then they switch places. So, it feels like an update on romanticism.
> 
> I'm utterly delighted! Congratulations!
> 
> When I say it is not perfect, this is possibly partly just about the limits of using sample libraries when you are pushing them in distinctive directions, and possibly just a matter of mixing/mastering. I'm not sure. My overall impression is that it is slightly unfinished, but wonderfully inspiring.
> 
> Also, much as I'm a republican at heart (as in, rule by the people; not by a monarch), I love princesses, and would love to swan about in pretty dresses, eating plum pudding and falling asleep at spinning wheels. And who doesn't love unicorns? Who? Fascists, that's who! (And possibly zoologists dealing with wild non-theories advanced by cryptozoologists.)
> 
> There is a triumphalist feel about this. That can be a very bad thing - a false sense of being wonderful. But it can also be a well-deserved celebration of virtue overcoming wickedness. You know, like when being unfailingly polite wears down someone looking for a fight. Or the defeat of Sauron. That kind of thing. (In my head, these are the same.)


I am flattered that you enjoyed my music, and I very much enjoyed reading this comment! Thank you for taking the time to listen and to write this.


----------



## I like music

Bee_Abney said:


> You've done something pretty special here. It's not perfect, but you've come close to something that goes beyond merely executing ideas well. The transitions are abrupt, but not jarring - that's good and lovely; and cinematic. There are some notes that seem to be somewhat - not misplayed, but misblown? or expressively blown. I love that. At least one such example is repeated (when the melody repeats) and so is clearly intentional. What makes this so very interesting is the way that there is somehow both a perfect fit and a mismatch between composition and orchestration. One is modern while the other classic, and then they switch places. So, it feels like an update on romanticism.
> 
> I'm utterly delighted! Congratulations!
> 
> When I say it is not perfect, this is possibly partly just about the limits of using sample libraries when you are pushing them in distinctive directions, and possibly just a matter of mixing/mastering. I'm not sure. My overall impression is that it is slightly unfinished, but wonderfully inspiring.
> 
> Also, much as I'm a republican at heart (as in, rule by the people; not by a monarch), I love princesses, and would love to swan about in pretty dresses, eating plum pudding and falling asleep at spinning wheels. And who doesn't love unicorns? Who? Fascists, that's who! (And possibly zoologists dealing with wild non-theories advanced by cryptozoologists.)
> 
> There is a triumphalist feel about this. That can be a very bad thing - a false sense of being wonderful. But it can also be a well-deserved celebration of virtue overcoming wickedness. You know, like when being unfailingly polite wears down someone looking for a fight. Or the defeat of Sauron. That kind of thing. (In my head, these are the same.)


I don't know if you write music, but I definitely hope you write more about music!


----------



## Tag

Anybody still knows 56k dial up modems? I kind of transcribed and "orchestrated" it with *Infinite Woods* and some timpani. :D


----------



## doctoremmet

It sounds like my ZX Spectrum loading a game off of a cassette


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

I want to thank everyone who shows all these amazing sounding library demonstrations. These magnificent musical instruments seem capable of a lot. I am impatiently waiting for string ensembles and solos. Exciting times!


----------



## shawnsingh

Tag said:


> Anybody still knows 56k dial up modems? I kind of transcribed and "orchestrated" it with *Infinite Woods* and some timpani. :D



Just in case anyone skimmed - the payoff is actually 2:15. Before that was beginning to get harmonielehre vibes


----------



## Bee_Abney

Tag said:


> Anybody still knows 56k dial up modems? I kind of transcribed and "orchestrated" it with *Infinite Woods* and some timpani. :D



Music is dead to me now. There is nowhere for the art form to go after this work. In a Hegelian sense, you have completed the history of music.


----------



## gamma-ut

shawnsingh said:


> Just in case anyone skimmed - the payoff is actually 2:15.



As that point approached I was beginning to think I would have cancelled and redialled by then.


----------



## Tag

shawnsingh said:


> Just in case anyone skimmed - the payoff is actually 2:15.


Thanks for the timecode - good idea to give other the hint. And thanks for the hint regarding _Harmonielehre_ - this one sounds interesting!



Bee_Abney said:


> In a Hegelian sense, you have completed the history of music.


Haha! Maybe I just _logged in_ to something here, though. d-:


----------



## El Buhdai

I remain impressed by Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and continue to use them exclusively. Here's a demo for a loopable track I made with them! I'm impressed at how they do well at what you'd expect (a traditional concert, classical, or symphonic sound) and don't sound half bad for epic stuff either. You'll hear at the end. 

I'm still hoping for one more round of tone improvements for Infinite Woodwinds, though I consider Infinite Brass to pretty much be a complete and polished product whose remaining tone issues are more than manageable.

P.S.: Start with your volume low


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

El Buhdai said:


> I remain impressed by Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and continue to use them exclusively. Here's a demo for a loopable track I made with them! I'm impressed at how they do well at what you'd expect (a traditional concert, classical, or symphonic sound) and don't sound half bad for epic stuff either. You'll hear at the end.
> 
> I'm still hoping for one more round of tone improvements for Infinite Woodwinds, though I consider Infinite Brass to pretty much be a complete and polished product whose remaining tone issues are more than manageable.
> 
> P.S.: Start with your volume low


nice! are you adding any additional panning?


----------



## doctoremmet

El Buhdai said:


> I remain impressed by Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and continue to use them exclusively. Here's a demo for a loopable track I made with them! I'm impressed at how they do well at what you'd expect (a traditional concert, classical, or symphonic sound) and don't sound half bad for epic stuff either. You'll hear at the end.
> 
> I'm still hoping for one more round of tone improvements for Infinite Woodwinds, though I consider Infinite Brass to pretty much be a complete and polished product whose remaining tone issues are more than manageable.
> 
> P.S.: Start with your volume low


Once again you’ve delivered a terrific example of your talents. Oh, and yes it is also a great showcase of the Infinite Series’ qualities. Thanks for sharing this.


----------



## Mike Stone

El Buhdai said:


> I remain impressed by Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and continue to use them exclusively. Here's a demo for a loopable track I made with them! I'm impressed at how they do well at what you'd expect (a traditional concert, classical, or symphonic sound) and don't sound half bad for epic stuff either. You'll hear at the end.
> 
> I'm still hoping for one more round of tone improvements for Infinite Woodwinds, though I consider Infinite Brass to pretty much be a complete and polished product whose remaining tone issues are more than manageable.
> 
> P.S.: Start with your volume low


I agree with the woodwinds, but I think there's still some room for improvement with the brass library. The tone could be a bit rounder/fuller here also, but this is nit-picking. Both IB and IW are must-haves IMO, and are about the most playable libraries you can get, which make them highly enjoyable to use.

The composition/arrangement you posted sounds great!


----------



## El Buhdai

NeonMediaKJT said:


> nice! are you adding any additional panning?


Yes. It's a bit more stereo processing than just basic panning though! I find that a regular pan will choke out the built in convolution and sense of space. I should mention that I'm starting to process the instruments more than when I first got the libraries. I initially used them with no processing.


doctoremmet said:


> Once again you’ve delivered a terrific example of your talents. Oh, and yes it is also a great showcase of the Infinite Series’ qualities. Thanks for sharing this.


Thanks <3



Mike Stone said:


> I agree with the woodwinds, but I think there's still some room for improvement with the brass library. The tone could be a bit rounder/fuller here also, but this is nit-picking. Both IB and IW are must-haves IMO, and are about the most playable libraries you can get, which make them highly enjoyable to use.
> 
> The composition/arrangement you posted sounds great!


Thanks for the compliments! I agree that Infinite Brass could still be rounder, but at this point I'm comfortable with saying that's a problem that can mostly be solved with some clever multi-band comp and use of the dynamic range slider as needed, particularly for up close solos.

... But if the comment on roundness was feedback for my own mixing, thanks I appreciate it!

As I said, I think Infinite Brass could be considered a great library even if left as is, but the main improvements I'd add to IB are the following:

* A final tone pass for trumpets at low dynamics. High dynamics are perfect in my book. Don't feel that anything is really lacking there.
* A comprehensive trombone refresh, similar to what 1.4 & 1.5 did for trumpets, and what 2.0 did for flutes. Though I should note that the current day trombones aren't as lacking as the pre-1.4 trumpets and pre-2.0 flutes were. I'm able to get some serviceable results from them.
* Slightly more dynamic attacks for Euphoniums. This is the only instrument across both libraries that I've found a tiny bit of machine-gunning with
* A return to the more dynamics-sensitive legato, while keeping the timing and other improvements legato added to 1.6. In 1.3.1 and to a lesser extent 1.4, it was possible to get these wonderful slurping transitions by putting a little spike in dynamics on them. It seems like now the dynamics are a bit more fixed; tied to whatever the dynamics level was before the transition.

I've been using these libraries since 2019 and it's been amazing watching them go from supplemental, experimental products that I wouldn't really use in a final track, to the primary instruments in my template. I can only really see myself reaching for something else if I happen to need a woodwind instrument with a crystal clear, perfect tone. And yet, I still find myself loading Infinite every time.


----------



## Trash Panda

El Buhdai said:


> I remain impressed by Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and continue to use them exclusively. Here's a demo for a loopable track I made with them! I'm impressed at how they do well at what you'd expect (a traditional concert, classical, or symphonic sound) and don't sound half bad for epic stuff either. You'll hear at the end.
> 
> I'm still hoping for one more round of tone improvements for Infinite Woodwinds, though I consider Infinite Brass to pretty much be a complete and polished product whose remaining tone issues are more than manageable.
> 
> P.S.: Start with your volume low


That sounds very good and natural in my headphones. If you don’t mind, would you be willing to share how you shape your CC1 data and what type of processing you’re applying?


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

El Buhdai said:


> I remain impressed by Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and continue to use them exclusively. Here's a demo for a loopable track I made with them! I'm impressed at how they do well at what you'd expect (a traditional concert, classical, or symphonic sound) and don't sound half bad for epic stuff either. You'll hear at the end.
> 
> I'm still hoping for one more round of tone improvements for Infinite Woodwinds, though I consider Infinite Brass to pretty much be a complete and polished product whose remaining tone issues are more than manageable.
> 
> P.S.: Start with your volume low


If this was in a film or video game, I genuinely would have been fooled into thinking it was live musicians. Incredible work!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

El Buhdai said:


> Yes. It's a bit more stereo processing than just basic panning though! I find that a regular pan will choke out the built in convolution and sense of space. I should mention that I'm starting to process the instruments more than when I first got the libraries. I initially used them with no processing.
> 
> Thanks <3
> 
> 
> Thanks for the compliments! I agree that Infinite Brass could still be rounder, but at this point I'm comfortable with saying that's a problem that can mostly be solved with some clever multi-band comp and use of the dynamic range slider as needed, particularly for up close solos.
> 
> ... But if the comment on roundness was feedback for my own mixing, thanks I appreciate it!
> 
> As I said, I think Infinite Brass could be considered a great library even if left as is, but the main improvements I'd add to IB are the following:
> 
> * A final tone pass for trumpets at low dynamics. High dynamics are perfect in my book. Don't feel that anything is really lacking there.
> * A comprehensive trombone refresh, similar to what 1.4 & 1.5 did for trumpets, and what 2.0 did for flutes. Though I should note that the current day trombones aren't as lacking as the pre-1.4 trumpets and pre-2.0 flutes were. I'm able to get some serviceable results from them.
> * Slightly more dynamic attacks for Euphoniums. This is the only instrument across both libraries that I've found a tiny bit of machine-gunning with
> * A return to the more dynamics-sensitive legato, while keeping the timing and other improvements legato added to 1.6. In 1.3.1 and to a lesser extent 1.4, it was possible to get these wonderful slurping transitions by putting a little spike in dynamics on them. It seems like now the dynamics are a bit more fixed; tied to whatever the dynamics level was before the transition.
> 
> I've been using these libraries since 2019 and it's been amazing watching them go from supplemental, experimental products that I wouldn't really use in a final track, to the primary instruments in my template. I can only really see myself reaching for something else if I happen to need a woodwind instrument with a crystal clear, perfect tone. And yet, I still find myself loading Infinite every time.


So what kind of stereo processing would that be?


----------



## Ethan Toavs

El Buhdai said:


> I remain impressed by Infinite Brass & Woodwinds and continue to use them exclusively. Here's a demo for a loopable track I made with them! I'm impressed at how they do well at what you'd expect (a traditional concert, classical, or symphonic sound) and don't sound half bad for epic stuff either. You'll hear at the end.
> 
> I'm still hoping for one more round of tone improvements for Infinite Woodwinds, though I consider Infinite Brass to pretty much be a complete and polished product whose remaining tone issues are more than manageable.
> 
> P.S.: Start with your volume low


This is a very lovely demo of these libraries! Fine work.


----------



## Jacob Cadmus

Tag said:


> Anybody still knows 56k dial up modems? I kind of transcribed and "orchestrated" it with *Infinite Woods* and some timpani. :D



Amazing work! My only critique is that the length of the piece wasn’t nearly as long as it took for me to sign onto my AOL account.


----------



## El Buhdai

NeonMediaKJT said:


> So what kind of stereo processing would that be?


It's two things. 

1. Fruity Stereo Shaper. I don't really understand how it works as much as I understand how to use it intuitively. Basically instead of a standard pan knob, it allows you to adjust both channels, how they link, their phase, and a Haas-like delay all in one plugin. I find that this allows me to move the instruments while still having a good bit of control over how the ambience is positioned. I was surprised at how effective it was. I usually just tweak until I find something that makes sense to my ear.

2. Early Reflection simulation (any decent delay plugin will do). I take advantage of the extra headroom these libraries give me from being so light on resources by simulating early reflections. So not only do the instruments go through another reverb tailored to brass, but before that, they're given a delay with a very low time. Depending on the instrument I'll either bandpass or lowpass it, and then I'll usually pan this delay to somewhere near opposite side of the stereo field from the instrument. It's not a hard pan, I just imagine what my room might look like and think about where I wanna put the reflections. Pass the wet signal through your reverb and boom, easy air.


----------



## El Buhdai

Trash Panda said:


> That sounds very good and natural in my headphones. If you don’t mind, would you be willing to share how you shape your CC1 data and what type of processing you’re applying


I really appreciate that. Lately I've been feeling that my orchestra is getting a little robotic after playing a bit of Multiversus and hearing that game's incredible soundtrack. So, I think it's time for me to push even further. I'm thinking the culprit is the strings. First, I need to get better at mixing the higher strings, and then I either need to get a supplementary library or invest in the full Hollywood Strings so I can finally have access to the room mics for added depth and dimension.

As for the CC, here's an example from 0:36 of what a brass line might look like when I write it (including CC1 at the bottom):






The most important thing to note about Infinite, especially the brass, is that these libraries are incredibly sensitive to even the most minute details in CC shaping. We all know that of course, but I truly think we should take advantage of the implications of that. It basically means you can perform any single note in so many different ways just by making minor changes to the CC.

For instance... if you listen at 36 seconds and look at the MIDI, you'll be able to hear that I have a quarter note on beats one and two of measure 18, and then another on 19. Each one of them sounds like a distinct and separate performance because of the way I handled the CC# curves. The first is sharp with a quick decay. The second is more meaty and full. The third tapers off quickly and sounds the most abrupt because it starts at the lowest dynamic level out of the notes in the phrase. But the point is they're all unique in the way they sound and are "performed". That's the magic of these libraries for me, and that's how I approach my lines. I don't spend hours doing CC either. I've just been taking this approach long enough that I can go through my thought process in a few seconds for a phrase.

The way I'm able to get the brass to sound alive on agile passages like the ones in this demo is by using lighter attacks than you might expect. I noticed that to emulate real performances you don't need extremely sharp attacks on all or even most high dynamics notes, and for low dynamics notes you'll probably want an attack that isn't noticeable at all in many circumstances. After the attack, I shoot the CC up briefly at the start of a note before creeping back on it.

I learned to emulate this by comparing my mockups to real scores. It's very simple to do in Infinite but as you can hear, it goes a long way. Since Infinite is so sensitive, you will generally want to do CC curves like this on every note to some degree, even longer sustains. Just vary the level of intensity and the length of these CC curves and you should have a natural sounding note with a proper attack, sustain, and decay performance that makes sense.


----------



## Ricgus3

sound team apk said:


> Combining merely a subset of the ideas from @Trash Panda, @ModalRealist, and @Jonathan Moray ...
> 
> I created a "regal horn" with lower dynamic range (something random around 50%) so I could lower the dynamics. The preset I loaded happened to have quite low pitch accuracy as well, and I left it that way. I used this regal horn for just one of the two horns in the two main a2 lines we've been talking about. Otherwise, I haven't yet tried anything with vibrato or saturation or anything.
> 
> Here are the two versions, isolated (no external reverb, no limiting, nothing). Even the original MIDI programming I spent a fair amount of time on seems sloppy when isolated, and I spent only five or so minutes on the regal horn edits. But you can get the idea.
> 
> The order is line 1 (original), line 1 (one regal horn), line 2 (original), line 2 (one regal horn).
> 
> View attachment Regal Horn Comparison.mp3
> 
> 
> Particularly in line 2, you can hear a huge difference even with my hasty edits.
> 
> In context, my first pass at the regal horn version sounds like this (it's subtle, but I think noticeable, and I believe the isolated version achieved a more pronounced version of the effect):
> 
> View attachment Silverado - Main Title Horns Exerpt - One Regal Horn.mp3
> 
> 
> I don't know if this is the best way to do this, but it absolutely adds the some of the "thickness" (by which I think we'd now say "warmth") I was lacking. I think I'll always keep two "regal horns" in my template now.
> 
> I've attached the original (non-regal) MIDI, disguised (not like these twelve notes are hard to pick out ... but it feels appropriate).


Hi! Just bought IB and was wondering how I would go about to recreate this regal horn sound? Any more good tips for a newcomer to IB?


----------



## muziksculp

Infinite Strings ? Or Finite Strings ?


----------



## FinGael

Hi @aaronventure. Have you thought of lite versions of the libraries? Thinking of some selected instruments of the full libraries (and an upgrade/crossgrade path to full versions...). Maybe a combined lite of some woods & brass together?

I'd love to support you as a developer, and to have some playable infinite magic in my DAW, but the price point is a little bit too hefty for my current budget and needs.


----------



## Mikro93

A quick little noodling of a tune I love (extra credit if you know the tune!).

Done on the alto flute, I played with the noise profile a little bit. Some EQing to warm the sound, and some compression and extra reverb. Studio IR, mix n°2.

IW shines on the agility here, as always 

Enjoy


----------



## Bee_Abney

Mikro93 said:


> A quick little noodling of a tune I love (extra credit if you know the tune!).
> 
> Done on the alto flute, I played with the noise profile a little bit. Some EQing to warm the sound, and some compression and extra reverb. Studio IR, mix n°2.
> 
> IW shines on the agility here, as always
> 
> Enjoy


Definitely warm and agile. I can't name that tune, though.


----------



## ModalRealist

Any word on Infinite Strings?


----------



## DANIELE

ModalRealist said:


> Any word on Infinite Strings?


2202


----------



## monochrome

Mikro93 said:


> A quick little noodling of a tune I love (extra credit if you know the tune!).
> 
> Done on the alto flute, I played with the noise profile a little bit. Some EQing to warm the sound, and some compression and extra reverb. Studio IR, mix n°2.
> 
> IW shines on the agility here, as always
> 
> Enjoy


studio IR + reverb is underrated for sure


----------



## doctoremmet

Yeah it came out three weeks ago to a lukewarm reception. Fizzled out real quick. Maybe check Knobcloud, loads of people trying to recoup some of their investment -I guess.


----------



## Loerpert

monochrome said:


> studio IR + reverb is underrated for sure


Ah yes, Romantic Flight ❤. Nice performance!


----------



## Bee_Abney

monochrome said:


> studio IR + reverb is underrated for sure


Too much beauty for a Monday morning! You and @Mikro93 are making me feel bad about the music I'm working on.

Or, um, inspiring me to do better?


----------



## Mikro93

Bee_Abney said:


> Too much beauty for a Monday morning! You and @Mikro93 are making me feel bad about the music I'm working on.
> 
> Or, um, inspiring me to do better?


You and me both  There's always somebody making me feel bad about my own music!


----------



## jesussaddle

doctoremmet said:


> Yeah it came out three weeks ago to a lukewarm reception. Fizzled out real quick. Maybe check Knobcloud, loads of people trying to recoup some of their investment -I guess.


What'cha referrin' to there? If you're referring to Infinite Strings I see no sign of them coming out 3 weeks ago.


----------



## doctoremmet

It was a joke. Obviously Infinite Strings has not been released yet. VI-Control and this thread would have exploded


----------



## Ricgus3

jesussaddle said:


> What'cha referrin' to there? If you're referring to Infinite Strings I see no sign of them coming out 3 weeks ago.


I think he was joking


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> 2202


Forgot to add a + in front :D


----------



## rockrvilt

Here is another composition and mockup using only Infinite Winds for WW and brass  Decided to upload my entry to BIFSC 2022 today. Was a bit short on time this year and used 2-3 days composing, mocking up and mixing this to get it delivered before the deadline 😅 So the mockup could be improved a couple of places, but was happy with the results considering my time constraints


----------



## Luka

monochrome said:


> studio IR + reverb is underrated for sure


Love me some HTTYD stuff!


----------



## dhmusic

Jonathan Moray said:


> Generally, I like the tone better in your example, but I generally like my performance much better. And that's not so strange since the work your doing by having to force the pre-recorded performances of CSW to work with the music is not easy. And I think you did very well, but there are just certain things in the performance that I don't like - the vibrato for example, certain legato transitions, etc. I can also hear the doubling in some of the leagtos where they crossfade.
> 
> If you do plan on buying the library, buy it for what it is now, not for what it might be in the future. This applies to all library purchases.


Oh I haven't heard this before - I wonder how the Orchestral Tools stuff would do on it. Such a nice piece and great examples, good work @Jonathan Moray, @Juulu, @obey, and @Trash Panda


----------



## PerryD

I am always happy with the way my real trumpet & flugelhorn blend with Infinite stuff. French Horns & Trombones in this case.


----------



## Bee_Abney

PerryD said:


> I am always happy with the way my real trumpet & flugelhorn blend with Infinite stuff. French Horns & Trombones in this case.


Gorgeous!


----------



## El Buhdai

PerryD said:


> I am always happy with the way my real trumpet & flugelhorn blend with Infinite stuff. French Horns & Trombones in this case.


I've always liked these demos too. Great work!


----------



## Mikro93

Ah yes, the creamy tone of a traditionally seated brass section, chromatically sampled, through a meticulously recorded IR of one of the best sounding orchestral halls in Europe.


----------



## Jamus

Mikro93 said:


> Ah yes, the creamy tone of a traditionally seated brass section, chromatically sampled, through a meticulously recorded IR of one of the best sounding orchestral halls in Europe.


Hot diggity damn that was some creamy brass!


----------



## gedlig

Anyone get the feeling he actually meant the +1 month thing? :D


----------



## Trash Panda

gedlig said:


> Anyone get the feeling he actually meant the +1 month thing? :D


@aaronventure doesn't fuck around. If you do, you'll find out.


----------



## gedlig

Trash Panda said:


> Lord and saviour doesn't fuck around. If you do, you'll find out.


Don't tag him


----------



## Marko Dvojkovic

Hey guys, another happy new user here, got the bundle on the discount. I can see that these libraries will be really a life changer. I had kind of a breakdown of frustration how I can't render the lines I composed properly without years of editing and massaging.
I opened a horn patch and pardon my language but it is instant boner, here is a snippet from Bombing Mission from Final Fantasy 7. This is first pass, my timing isn't the tightest on couple moments but it is only modwheel and note input, I lowered the Attack Range to 0 so I shape my attacks here only with modwheel. The last note could maybe use just a touch of vibrato but as I said this is out of the box, first pass recording, I usually generally overdub vibrato performance.

Cheers!


----------



## Damarus

Marko Dvojkovic said:


> Hey guys, another happy new user here, got the bundle on the discount. I can see that these libraries will be really a life changer. I had kind of a breakdown of frustration how I can't render the lines I composed properly without years of editing and massaging.
> I opened a horn patch and pardon my language but it is instant boner, here is a snippet from Bombing Mission from Final Fantasy 7. This is first pass, my timing isn't the tightest on couple moments but it is only modwheel and note input, I lowered the Attack Range to 0 so I shape my attacks here only with modwheel. The last note could maybe use just a touch of vibrato but as I said this is out of the box, first pass recording, I usually generally overdub vibrato performance.
> 
> Cheers!


ugh that OST brings me back every time. This sounds clean! Brb going to play FF7 again.


----------



## vicontrolu

Pretty nice results with the Attack Range at 0!


----------



## Marko Dvojkovic

vicontrolu said:


> Pretty nice results with the Attack Range at 0!


Thanks, I guess it has been discussed on this gigantic thread before, but I wonder how are people approaching controlling the attack and what are the pros and cons.
I have found so far that sometimes, for some lines it is easier for me to get the right performance by putting the Attack range to between 9 and 12 o'clock approx, on the other hand when on 0 I like that then I don't have to worry about velocity at all so it is maybe easier to really focus better on modwheel movements. Generally I find hard to control with finesse the whole velocity range, 0-127 on a midi keyboard. But also with Attack Range at 0 editing velocity afterwards if needed via modwheel curve is not really practical. So I am curious to hear some insights.

In this line most of those staccatisimo notes are basically modwheel held on max, I felt that that very brassy, cuivre sound worked really well for those tightest short notes, that's why Attack range to 0 did the job here.


----------



## Trash Panda

I program in all the notes, so I leave the attack at its default setting and just adjust the velocity in relation to CC1 accordingly. 

A nice sweet spot for getting a realistic rounded attack that you most often hear on actual recordings is with a velocity about 4-8 ticks below the CC1 value when the note starts.


----------



## I like music

Mocked up Jerry Goldsmith's Star Trek First Contact end credits. Still a few things to improve, but brass is all Infinite (lots of Infinite Woodwinds too, but in the middle section I went with Berlin Woodwinds). Strings are CSS + Sample Modeling.

I don't know how to mix and master stuff, so I never do anything there. 

Reverbs etc are all Cubase on-board stuff.


----------



## FireGS

Trash Panda said:


> I program in all the notes, so I leave the attack at its default setting and just adjust the velocity in relation to CC1 accordingly.
> 
> A nice sweet spot for getting a realistic rounded attack that you most often hear on actual recordings is with a velocity about 4-8 ticks below the CC1 value when the note starts.


Yeap, this is how I've been working with it. I also love how Studio One will play the note back when changing the velocity so I can hear in realtime (over and over until I release the mouse press) what the attack sounds like.


----------



## Marko Dvojkovic

Trash Panda said:


> 4-8 ticks below the CC1 value when the note starts.


That is probably why I found lower Attack Range setting comfortable for playing in some cases. With higher setting I so far found that I more often mismatch the attack with the current modwheel value (too hard or too soft) since as I mentioned I think controlling the whole velocity range with precision is kind of clunky.
But I need to play and experiment more (oh boy how satisfying it is )


FireGS said:


> I also love how Studio One will play the note back when changing the velocity so I can hear in realtime


Yup, I have that feature in Logic also.


----------



## PerryD

PerryD said:


> I am always happy with the way my real trumpet & flugelhorn blend with Infinite stuff. French Horns & Trombones in this case.


I added Infinite woodwinds but I think I hit the track volume automation a little hard. Just experimenting.


----------



## Tanarri

Got IB, and I have to say...

I've been buying sample libraries for over 15 years now, spent thousands of dollars, IB is the best sample library I've ever purchased.
Well, sample library... it's a real fricking instrument!

No disrespect, but it blows all the brass I own from all those big name companies out of the water.

Not to mention Aaron made such a huge updates, and all for free!!!


----------



## shawnsingh

Tanarri said:


> Got IB, and I have to say...
> 
> I've been buying sample libraries for over 15 years now, spent thousands of dollars, IB is the best sample library I've ever purchased.
> Well, sample library... it's a real fricking instrument!
> 
> No disrespect, but it blows all the brass I own from all those big name companies out of the water.
> 
> Not to mention Aaron made such a huge updates, and all for free!!!


These words remind me how thrilled I was a few years ago when I bought this too.


----------



## Denkii

Tanarri said:


> Got IB, and I have to say...
> 
> I've been buying sample libraries for over 15 years now, spent thousands of dollars, IB is the best sample library I've ever purchased.
> Well, sample library... it's a real fricking instrument!
> 
> No disrespect, but it blows all the brass I own from all those big name companies out of the water.
> 
> Not to mention Aaron made such a huge updates, and all for free!!!


Welcome to the club


----------



## oceanic714

I always forget how well Soaring Strings blends with the Infinite libraries. Here's a tiny bit of Shrek!


----------



## DavidRubenstein

I have a question for folks who use Infinite Brass and Woodwinds. 
Do you use one of the 3 supplied "spaces" for reverb by themselves, or in conjunction with an additional reverb plugin? If you use an additional reverb plugin, which internal space do you normally use, "Studio", "Bersa", or "Mozarteum" ? 

Also, if you use an additional reverb plugin, do you find a need to apply a high-pass filter first?

Thanks!


----------



## Denkii

First i always used them bone dry with my own reverb, trying to match them to the rest.
Eventually I started using bersa and mozarteum exclusively and just match my strings against that.
For me personally, the latter works way better.
At the end there is always some 7th heaven for some tail for everything I do.


----------



## I like music

DavidRubenstein said:


> I have a question for folks who use Infinite Brass and Woodwinds.
> Do you use one of the 3 supplied "spaces" for reverb by themselves, or in conjunction with an additional reverb plugin? If you use an additional reverb plugin, which internal space do you normally use, "Studio", "Bersa", or "Mozarteum" ?
> 
> Also, if you use an additional reverb plugin, do you find a need to apply a high-pass filter first?
> 
> Thanks!


In my mockup a few posts back, I used Bersa with Cubase's Reverence. Seemed to work OK for my purposes. No high pass filters applied. What is the purpose of such a filter in the setup you mention?


----------



## Ethan Toavs

DavidRubenstein said:


> I have a question for folks who use Infinite Brass and Woodwinds.
> Do you use one of the 3 supplied "spaces" for reverb by themselves, or in conjunction with an additional reverb plugin? If you use an additional reverb plugin, which internal space do you normally use, "Studio", "Bersa", or "Mozarteum" ?
> 
> Also, if you use an additional reverb plugin, do you find a need to apply a high-pass filter first?
> 
> Thanks!


I typically use "Mozarteum," in addition to a reverb bus that all of my libraries get sent through. For my reverb bus, I cut out the very low & high frequencies.


----------



## Trash Panda

Mozarteum when using with wet/distant libraries like Berlin/Ark/AROOF. 

Bersa when using with drier/closer libraries like Tokyo Scoring Strings. Sometimes I’ll leave it in Mozarteum if the timbre/distance is more appropriate and make the drier libraries more wet to match. 

I never use the Studio unless it’s being done with something super dry, like jazz/rock/metal tracks and I want that upfront sound.


----------



## DavidRubenstein

I like music said:


> In my mockup a few posts back, I used Bersa with Cubase's Reverence. Seemed to work OK for my purposes. No high pass filters applied. What is the purpose of such a filter in the setup you mention?


The purpose of the filter would be to prevent the reverb from contributing to a muddy mix.


----------



## I like music

DavidRubenstein said:


> The purpose of the filter would be to prevent the reverb from contributing to a muddy mix.


I might try that then! Mine was a bit muddy so this might be the thing that fixes it


----------



## monochrome

I always use studio + external reverb and I resaved each instrument to default to studio, but I generally like a more cinematic close timbre rather than concert hall orchestra energy. I also do use the more distant mixed mics like 3 for winds and 4 for brass

for brass tho I send each section to a dry and the reverb separately so I can slightly lower the dry if it sounds too close, or automate it for the context


----------



## Jonathan Moray

I'm guessing I'm not the only one who got the survey about the Infinite Series, right?

I'm actually having trouble answering the questions. I've taken a step away from music for a couple of months so I haven't used the Infinite Series very extensive the last couple of months. Do you guys have any ideas for features and spaces that would be great to pair with Infinite? I know I had some suggestions like a year or so back, but I don't remember them and don't feel like rummaging through my history to find what those suggestions were.

Also, I started writing down recording studios that I like, to then find that a lot of them have closed their doors. So far I only have "Maida Vale Studios" because I really like that more focused scoring stage sound. The closest we have right now is "Bersa Hall" which, of course, is good, but it's still not tight and focused enough, and "Studio" is too small. So, a medium scoring stage with plenty of early reflections is at the top of my list to fill the gap between hall and studio. Any suggestions?


----------



## DANIELE

Jonathan Moray said:


> I'm guessing I'm not the only one who got the survey about the Infinite Series, right?
> 
> I'm actually having trouble answering the questions. I've taken a step away from music for a couple of months so I haven't used the Infinite Series very extensive the last couple of months. Do you guys have any ideas for features and spaces that would be great to pair with Infinite? I know I had some suggestions like a year or so back, but I don't remember them and don't feel like rummaging through my history to find what those suggestions were.
> 
> Also, I started writing down recording studios that I like, to then find that a lot of them have closed their doors. So far I only have "Maida Vale Studios" because I really like that more focused scoring stage sound. The closest we have right now is "Bersa Hall" which, of course, is good, but it's still not tight and focused enough, and "Studio" is too small. So, a medium scoring stage with plenty of early reflections is at the top of my list to fill the gap between hall and studio. Any suggestions?


I second this question. I have no idea about scoring stages. I always use studio with external plugin. I hope he will accept my answers aswell.


----------



## Tag

Yes, I got the survey as well. Aaron is just incredible. It's not just a great product - he also listens to the users and asks for input. I really appreciate that.

Regarding the survey itself ... unfortunately my input was not that constructive, since I am already so satisfied with the product. I only wrote something about such things, which might be nice to have _(to me at least)_:

- Maybe better performance
- Controllable harmon mutes
- Even drier studio IRs, since I personally really like to use my external reverbs


----------



## Trash Panda

I suggested a few new IRs: Zlin, Vienna Konzerthaus, Sound City Tokyo Studio A (the one with the marble walls), Trackdown Syndey and some other lesser known ones.

Features-wise I suggested the ability to control cuivre independently of CC1, an IR bypass toggle, continued improvements to pitch accuracy/pitch drift on low brass to bring them in line with the quality of the high brass ones for ensemble work.


----------



## decredis

Tag said:


> Yes, I got the survey as well. Aaron is just incredible. It's not just a great product - he also listens to the users and asks for input. I really appreciate that.
> 
> Regarding the survey itself ... unfortunately my input was not that constructive, since I am already so satisfied with the product. I only wrote something about such things, which might be nice to have _(to me at least)_:
> 
> - Maybe better performance
> - Controllable harmon mutes
> - Even drier studio IRs, since I personally really like to use my external reverbs


Yeah, my only specific request was continuous control on appropriate mutes; I have Sordina which does that but, while its mutes are great, the continuous control just sounds like a filter sweep to me so something realistic for that in Infinite would be awesome.


----------



## Bee_Abney

These are all good suggestions. The controllable mutes is a big one, as would anything to help achieve sounds that go beyond the orchestral - jazz, big band, pop, folkier sounds.

Impulse Responses of studios are good; but for strings (written in trusting hope!) can really benefit from some body resonance impulse responses, to alter the timbre of the instruments.

I don't have any of the infinite series yet; I'm following this board because, thus far, it looks to be the best choice for me when I expand to a western-style orchestra - hopefully next year if not before. So, I don't know if these libraries already have resonance impulse responses. If not, that would be a great addition to all of the libraries.


----------



## Bee_Abney

decredis said:


> Yeah, my only specific request was continuous control on appropriate mutes; I have Sordina which does that but, while its mutes are great, the continuous control just sounds like a filter sweep to me so something realistic for that in Infinite would be awesome.


I have the same issue with Sordina. I actually get better results using a 'filter sweep' effect on an EQ, which can be controlled for a mixture of subtlety and extremes. But that, of course, would have to be done with the Sordina mute removed, so you don't start from the same muted sound.


----------



## Trash Panda

Bee_Abney said:


> These are all good suggestions. The controllable mutes is a big one, as would anything to help achieve sounds that go beyond the orchestral - jazz, big band, pop, folkier sounds.
> 
> Impulse Responses of studios are good; but for strings (written in trusting hope!) can really benefit from some body resonance impulse responses, to alter the timbre of the instruments.
> 
> I don't have any of the infinite series yet; I'm following this board because, thus far, it looks to be the best choice for me when I expand to a western-style orchestra - hopefully next year if not before. So, I don't know if these libraries already have resonance impulse responses. If not, that would be a great addition to all of the libraries.


There are controllable mutes of many styles for brass already. The only real omission in my mind is a controllable Harmon stem mute like Sample Modeling offers. There's just the static Harmon Stem In and Harmon Stem Out in addition to the others (straight, bucket, etc.).

Some additional IRs of Studio-sized venues that are larger than the included one would be good. Everything is just way too close for anything other than pop/rock/jazz in the current Studio IR and the Sample Modeling stuff honestly sounds better in those contexts.


----------



## muziksculp

I got the survey. 

Looking forward to the new exciting updates for the Brass, and Woodwinds, and eventually Infinite Strings release.


----------



## HereGiam

Jonathan Moray said:


> The closest we have right now is "Bersa Hall" which, of course, is good, but it's still not tight and focused enough, and "Studio" is too small. So, a medium scoring stage with plenty of early reflections is at the top of my list to fill the gap between hall and studio.


My answer on this question was for something between Studio and Bersa. More significantly, to be able to put IW and IB in the same space so that for a wind octet, for example, the horns are not too far back.


----------



## gedlig

The second to last paragraph in the survey letter really does build excitement.

*Yes I purposefully didn't include the text out of personal urge to annoy people.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Great suggestions and discussion.



Tag said:


> Controllable harmon mutes


Yes, a controllable mute would-be killer.



Trash Panda said:


> Zlin, Vienna Konzerthaus, Sound City Tokyo Studio A (the one with the marble walls), Trackdown Syndey and some other lesser known ones.


Sound City was on my list and I will probably add it back, but I would probably like something a little bigger. It's still a _great_ space. The tail and early reflections of that studio does seem to lend itself well to sounding bigger than it is with the help of some added reverb but still intimate if needed.

Tackdown would be good to have to easily pair Infinite with the Cinematic Studio series. I like Trackdown, but I don't think it would be a top pick for me.



Trash Panda said:


> Features-wise I suggested the ability to control cuivre independently of CC1


Interesting. Any idea how you would implement something like that? Would you be fine with a louder mf that you can then push into a cuivre ff without actually changing the volume? Or would he have to rerecord new layers for it?



HereGiam said:


> My answer on this question was for something between Studio and Bersa. More significantly, to be able to put IW and IB in the same space so that for a wind octet, for example, the horns are not too far back.


Not entirely sure I understand. Could you elaborate? I agree that a space between Studio and Bersa would be fantastic.

Do you mean that you want seating options closer to the woodwinds section for the brass? The mix options aren't enough to get a realistic wind octet sound?

I wish Aaron would make all positions of all sections available to all other sections. I understand that each IR has a "color"/sound to it that makes it fit with the specific instrument and I don't know how significant that colouration is. Maybe it would sound horrible to put the Horns in the same seat as the Flutes without a lot more work. Maybe it's too much work and barely anyone will use it. I don't know.


----------



## doctoremmet

I also mentioned Zlin (of course) and Concertgebouw Amsterdam






Concertgebouw Kamerorkest - a gorgeous strings sound


****Edit February 2022********************************** added two new versions. First one with Sonokinetic Orchestral Strings: Apart from the obvious tuning issue, I like this version. It has depth, and a natural concert strings sound. The tuning issue should get corrected with the next...




vi-control.net


----------



## gedlig

Thinking what I could add to the requests, overblowing and something like transitioning from noteless blowing to playing a note would be cool.

Edit: Probably the transition thing, but also the ability for the WW to sound like there's more breath than note. As if sticking in some piece of paper or plastic in the labium of a recorder.


----------



## Markrs

I have long been interested in the Infinite Series and due to being suckered into discount libraries, so have so far not bought any yet. Whilst orchestral is important for me, I would really love a library that can do jazz, big band, etc really well. At the moment I get more drawn to Audio Modeling for this, but would be very happy if I could do more of that in Infinite Series.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Any good soundtrack recommendation recorded in Zlin?

I personally think it's too big and would be more of the same compared with Bersa and especially Mozarteum.


----------



## HereGiam

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not entirely sure I understand. Could you elaborate? I agree that a space between Studio and Bersa would be fantastic.
> 
> Do you mean that you want seating options closer to the woodwinds section for the brass? The mix options aren't enough to get a realistic wind octet sound?
> 
> I wish Aaron would make all positions of all sections available to all other sections.


Pretty much your last sentence above is what I meant. Think of a wind octet with 2 oboes front/central on the left, 2 clarinets front/central on the right and the bassoons and horns a little further back in the middle. Much as I love Bersa, using it I found the horns sounded too far back, relative to the rest. Using Studio gets around this, but it's very dry.


----------



## Trash Panda

Jonathan Moray said:


> Interesting. Any idea how you would implement something like that? Would you be fine with a louder mf that you can then push into a cuivre ff without actually changing the volume? Or would he have to rerecord new layers for it?


I might be wrong, but it sounds like the cuivre is a separate layer added on top of the FF samples when you exceed a certain threshold on dynamics. I would just want the ability to layer that in at lower dynamics as it is possible to get that brassier sound without blowing the roof off.

See the quiet passage of The Imperial March and you'll hear it in the horns. Additionally, JXL/TH Brass has a much brassier quality to it at lower dynamics than the equivalent levels in Berlin Brass.



gedlig said:


> Thinking what I could add to the requests, overblowing and something like transitioning from noteless blowing to playing a note would be cool.
> 
> Edit: Probably the transition thing, but also the ability for the WW to sound like there's more breath than note. As if sticking in some piece of paper or plastic in the labium of a recorder.


There are overblow samples if you open the wrench and look at the groups. I'm guessing you're thinking more of a jetwhistle type of overblow like in the Metropolis Arks?


----------



## I like music

Strings would be an improvement over the current no-strings setup, hehe


----------



## gedlig

Trash Panda said:


> There are overblow samples if you open the wrench and look at the groups. I'm guessing you're thinking more of a jetwhistle type of overblow like in the Metropolis Arks?


There are, but they're not T H A T overblown, if you know what I mean. And really short. Would be cool have some super overblown sustain.
Don't have any of the Metropoli to compare, but probably yes or no


----------



## Trash Panda

gedlig said:


> There are, but they're not T H A T overblown, if you know what I mean. And really short. Would be cool have some super overblown sustain.
> Don't have any of the Metropoli to compare, but probably yes or no


Check out at 10:00.


----------



## gedlig

Trash Panda said:


> Check out at 10:00.



Oh yeah, that sort of stuff


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> I might be wrong, but it sounds like the cuivre is a separate layer added on top of the FF samples when you exceed a certain threshold on dynamics. I would just want the ability to layer that in at lower dynamics as it is possible to get that brassier sound without blowing the roof off.
> 
> See the quiet passage of The Imperial March and you'll hear it in the horns. Additionally, JXL/TH Brass has a much brassier quality to it at lower dynamics than the equivalent levels in Berlin Brass.
> 
> 
> There are overblow samples if you open the wrench and look at the groups. I'm guessing you're thinking more of a jetwhistle type of overblow like in the Metropolis Arks?


I see.

Sadly, I don't think it's that simple. In contrast to the breath noise, I think the cuivre is recorded into the samples. I think it's easily doable if you're happy to just have mf and ff be the same volume making it sound like a morph into cuivre if you push it past a certain point -- i.e. everything between 100-127 in dynamics won't change the volume, only the timbre. It's not perfect, but it might be close enough. After all, these are virtual instruments we are talking about, they never will be perfect, but an approximation that gets us 90% there will be good enough for most.

Although, I'm not sure how good this would sound compared to the real deal.


----------



## I like music

Jonathan Moray said:


> I see.
> 
> Sadly, I don't think it's that simple. In contrast to the breath noise, I think the cuivre is recorded into the samples. I think it's easily doable if you're happy to just have mf and ff be the same volume making it sound like a morph into cuivre if you push it past a certain point -- i.e. everything between 100-127 in dynamics won't change the volume, only the timbre. It's not perfect, but it might be close enough. After all, these are virtual instruments we are talking about, they never will be perfect, but an approximation that gets us 90% there will be good enough for most.
> 
> Although, I'm not sure how good this would sound compared to the real deal.


In those moments when cuivre is needed (at least how I understand it here) I think using the dynamic range slider to kill off the dynamic range and then use cc1 can work. I haven't tried it at the extremes yet, but I think it could approximate this somewhat.


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> In those moments when cuivre is needed (at least how I understand it here) I think using the dynamic range slider to kill off the dynamic range and then use cc1 can work. I haven't tried it at the extremes yet, but I think it could approximate this somewhat.


That's what I have done in the past. It kinda works, but sounds like a loud part turned down instead of a brassier version of a quieter dynamic. It may not even be possible. What's a wish list without a little bit of a moon-shot?


----------



## I like music

Trash Panda said:


> That's what I have done in the past. It kinda works, but sounds like a loud part turned down instead of a brassier version of a quieter dynamic. It may not even be possible. What's a wish list without a little bit of a moon-shot?


Ohhh I see. Yeah, that description is right. 

I guess if there's a dev out there that can make it happen, it's Aaron.


----------



## sound team apk

I also asked about a cuivre control, with the full knowledge we might never get it due to requiring new recordings. It wouldn't be my top request.

I think the fanciest feature request I had has been mentioned here before: I would be intrigued by the ability to (optionally) trigger a scripted realistic performance arc for sustains. Even better -- something that takes my vague arc and just makes it sound more idiomatic. 

Perhaps because I'm a pianist, even after almost two years I haven't had much success just playing things in and quickly producing longs that sound like an actual wind player -- particularly the idiomatic shapes of attack and release. I have to listen carefully and tweak a lot. I wouldn't want Infinite Noteperformer or something that would magically create a real performance for me; I would rather Aaron invest in improving and adding instruments. But I wonder if he could produce a handful of reasonably varied / humanized default(s) for each instrument that would save a lot of time in ensemble parts where I'm just looking for something believable rather than a particular intonation. I'm fairly confident that Aaron's default sustain would be better than mine even with several more months of practice.

My top space request -- a joke, really -- was one of the handful of "acoustically perfect" concert halls with 2.2s RT. Sound City was a great thought. I wish I'd included that. I'm glad someone else did.


----------



## Pokestir

Does anyone else here just scroll through several pages of this thread for no particular reason every couple of weeks? It’s actually pretty pleasurable to be completely honest.


----------



## mussnig

My only request was some kind of ensemble builder, e.g. having 4 horns play in unison (even better if one could also do this with e.g. various trombones an octave apart). Sure, one can use humanize, pitch accuracy etc. but if the same midi is sent to all instruments it still sounds a bit off to me and can't compete with ensembles that were really recorded together (at least not yet).

Yes, I know, ideally I would play in each part for all instruments separately, but sometimes that's too cumbersome, especially if I want to change things afterwards.

However, based on the description of the upcoming Infinite Strings, I reckon that Aaron is implementing such a feature for the strings which will hopefully also find it's way to IB and IW.

Anyways, they are amazing instruments and just give me joy to play around with (just Kontakt standalone without any DAW)!


----------



## Mikro93

mussnig said:


> My only request was some kind of ensemble builder, e.g. having 4 horns play in unison (even better if one could also do this with e.g. various trombones an octave apart). Sure, one can use humanize, pitch accuracy etc. but if the same midi is sent to all instruments it still sounds a bit off to me and can't compete with ensembles that were really recorded together (at least not yet).


I did mention some kind of ensemble patches too, with octave controls


----------



## DANIELE

I write for single instruments (IB and IW) actually but ensemble mode could be useful to sketch a lot of parts (hamony ones in the first place).

The strings need ensemble patches of course.


----------



## Loïc D

DANIELE said:


> I write for single instruments (IB and IW) actually but ensemble mode could be useful to sketch a lot of parts (hamony ones in the first place).
> 
> The strings need ensemble patches of course


Here’s how I do it :
- I switch to poly mode (sustain pedal) and write my parts polyphonically
- When I’m done, I distribute voices among the solo instruments
It’s a quick way to sketch parts and refine them later.


----------



## Ricgus3

@aaronventure I have been experimenting with my EWI 5000 and IB that I just bought during the sale. Here is a quick test sample of me setting up my EWI to make it work pretty good! I had to disable alot of the Midi Learn from humanization and stuff. the EWI sended out alot of extra midi data. I had to go into my EWI and disable them aswell so it only sends data CC 2, 11, etc. Also had it setup with Midi CC 104 for Legato note delay when I toggel it on the EWI. Let me know if you think it works out!

This was a one take improv and test on Trumpet 1. Bersa with Seventh Heaven reverb


----------



## Mikro93

Ricgus3 said:


> I have been experimenting with my EWI 5000 and IB that I just bought during the sale. Here is a quick test sample of me setting up my EWI to make it work pretty good! I had to disable alot of the Midi Learn from humanization and stuff. the EWI sended out alot of extra midi data. I had to go into my EWI and disable them aswell so it only sends data CC 2, 11, etc. Also had it setup with Midi CC 104 for Legato note delay when I toggel it on the EWI. Let me know if you think it works out!
> 
> This was a one take improv and test on Trumpet 1. Bersa with Seventh Heaven reverb


Not bad!

The slurs are a bit extreme, as in, the legato transitions are maybe a bit too long. I think it has to do with the note velocity on a keyboard, can you up that on an EWI?


----------



## Ricgus3

Mikro93 said:


> Not bad!
> 
> The slurs are a bit extreme, as in, the legato transitions are maybe a bit too long. I think it has to do with the note velocity on a keyboard, can you up that on an EWI?




Okay! I will try to experiment with the velocity/attack setting in IB interface. I think I need to lower the sensitivity as it is quite strong when I blow harder. This is I can do on the ewi.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Could I ask what you would like to see in a potential ensemble patch that you can't already do?


----------



## decredis

Pokestir said:


> Does anyone else here just scroll through several pages of this thread for no particular reason every couple of weeks? It’s actually pretty pleasurable to be completely honest.


Yeah totally. It's just the most unambiguously happy place in the internet.


----------



## doctoremmet

Ease of use + optimization out of the box


----------



## Jonathan Moray

doctoremmet said:


> Ease of use + optimization out of the box


Ease of use? I'm always looking to improve my workflow, how would this help?

Do you mean optimization as in a performance or something else? Just to be clear, are we talking about a rendered down version of an ensemble i.e. that we only get one voice even when multiple instruments are playing in an ensemble, like most traditional libraries? Or are talking a patch that is just a combination of patches i.e. you get as many individual voices as there are instruments?


----------



## doctoremmet

I’m thinking curated pre-orchestrated multis, with settings that are optimized to work together well. I could use those and instead of making my own, I’d have “recallable” multis that wouldn’t need much tweaking.


----------



## Ricgus3

More EWI playing examples of Trumpet 1 here. I playied around with the settings but I found that using Velocity sensitive attack is better for EWI (maybe diffrent for Breath controllers), sinse I articulate alot with my mouth as a sax player. I noticed also that the Legato Minimun really helped my playing being more intuitive. When it was set to 1 that is default; playing fast scales or lines soft made a "woobly" synth sound instead, as if i triggers the attack but cannot connect the notes. But at higher dynamics it worked atlot better! So I lowered it to 56 which helped the fast lines at lower dynamic!

Also you can see how crazy the "modwheel/breath controller" is getting when using an EWI or breath controller. Really helpes it sound alive IMO!

One jazzy example where I push the dynamics alot at the end
And one smoother "classi/filmy" trumpet
Posting images of the midi data that comes out also. I noticed that there are no notes "overlapping" but I still hear Legato being triggered  which is great cause I cannot get my EWI to make overlaps

















"Classic/Filmy" Playig
View attachment EWI Trumpet 1 Soft.mp3


Jazzy Impro test
View attachment EWI Trumpet 1 JAzz Cray cray floofing.mp3


----------



## doctoremmet

Ricgus3 said:


> More EWI playing examples of Trumpet 1 here. I playied around with the settings but I found that using Velocity sensitive attack is better for EWI (maybe diffrent for Breath controllers), sinse I articulate alot with my mouth as a sax player. I noticed also that the Legato Minimun really helped my playing being more intuitive.
> 
> One jazzy example where I push the dynamics alot at the end
> And one smoother "classi/filmy" trumpet
> Posting images of the midi data that comes out also. I noticed that there are no notes "overlapping" but I still hear Legato being triggered  which is great cause I cannot get my EWI to make overlaps


That sounds GREAT


----------



## Ricgus3

doctoremmet said:


> That sounds GREAT


Thank you! been working a few hours on getting my EWI and IB to feel like when I play the saxophone! Will test the other instruments later aswell! Excited to make a trombone ensemble and EWI-play starwars broody lines! :D


----------



## sound team apk

Jonathan Moray said:


> Could I ask what you would like to see in a potential ensemble patch that you can't already do?


I guess along similar lines of my request for some time-saving default "idiomatic arcs," I would get a little bit of use out of a feature to automatically vary the CC1 curves of the non-lead instruments in a predefined ensemble in a way that sounds "believable enough."

Though I wonder how close one could get to this by setting up radically different CC1 curves for the different instruments in the ensemble.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

doctoremmet said:


> I’m thinking curated pre-orchestrated multis, with settings that are optimized to work together well. I could use those and instead of making my own, I’d have “recallable” multis that wouldn’t need much tweaking.


Ah, interesting. I have a few custom multis like that, but since my workflow consists of mostly just using the individual instruments, my way of creating pre-orchestrated "patches" is a bit more involved for maximum flexibility - but turns out I rarely use pre-orchestrated patches anyway. What I do use though is union patches to make it easier to write for large ensembles without having 12 individual lanes for just horns.

I've had the idea to create a KSP script that would make it easy to change the settings across all the loaded patches, like changing from Bersa to Studio, or changing mix mics, or humanization settings, etc. But I don't know enough about KSP to do it and don't have the time to invest in figuring it out so I do it all via CCs for now.

I don't remember if it's allowed to share multis or if that would be considered the same as sharing the patch itself. Is there anything that's keeping you right now from making these patches yourself?


----------



## Jonathan Moray

sound team apk said:


> I guess along similar lines of my request for some time-saving default "idiomatic arcs," I would get a little bit of use out of a feature to automatically vary the CC1 curves of the non-lead instruments in a predefined ensemble in a way that sounds "believable enough."
> 
> Though I wonder how close one could get to this by setting up radically different CC1 curves for the different instruments in the ensemble.


What is an "idiomatic arc"? Isn't that dependent on the piece of music? Do you have any examples?

I already think that Infinite varies all the CC values in a non-linear fashion as to create enough variation for them to sound good together as an ensemble. Might be a good idea to expose these controls somewhere on the interface so that the user can change them however they like? Right now all we've got that is exposed is the "Pitch Accuracy" maybe something like "Sustain Consistency" or similar? I know Aaron doesn't want to add to much to the interface to keep it simple and easy to use, but I personally always like more options. They can even be hidden under their own tab. What DAW are you using?

That's actually something I've tried, but I ditched the idea because I like control and consistency. If you don't want to go under the hood and make the changes, you can use a KSP script to change the curves. There's a good script for custom curves somewhere here on Vi-Control.


----------



## Ricgus3

Jonathan Moray said:


> Ah, interesting. I have a few custom multis like that, but since my workflow consists of mostly just using the individual instruments, my way of creating pre-orchestrated "patches" is a bit more involved for maximum flexibility - but turns out I rarely use pre-orchestrated patches anyway. What I do use though is union patches to make it easier to write for large ensembles without having 12 individual lanes for just horns.
> 
> I've had the idea to create a KSP script that would make it easy to change the settings across all the loaded patches, like changing from Bersa to Studio, or changing mix mics, or humanization settings, etc. But I don't know enough about KSP to do it and don't have the time to invest in figuring it out so I do it all via CCs for now.
> 
> I don't remember if it's allowed to share multis or if that would be considered the same as sharing the patch itself. Is there anything that's keeping you right now from making these patches yourself?


Sharing Multies should be fine right? Since you need the IB/IW to load them in. The multies themselves is just information for kontakt? Or have I misunderstood it?


----------



## sound team apk

Jonathan Moray said:


> What is an "idiomatic arc"? Isn't that dependent on the piece of music? Do you have any examples?


I mostly mean idiomatic to the instrument based on how players are trained to play. I assume there would be different characteristic bumps and dips in CC1 particularly on attack and release for different types of wind instruments. I assume (not knowing much) this would be more dependent on "school" of training than on the particular piece. 

The scripted attacks, for instance, aren't meant to sound magically real by default, and there's no scripted release. Sometimes I spend a lot of time tweaking ratios of velocity to CC1 (followed by CC1 swells or dips) to produce something that (to my ears) actually sounds like a player blowing and then settling into a sustain. Maybe I'm using the libraries all wrong or being overly pedantic, but the difference in sound quality (again, to my ears) seems enormous to me on some of the instruments after I make these kinds of tweaks.

Even if I used a breath controller, I still wouldn't know how which breaths to use to imitate a real player.


----------



## Ricgus3

sound team apk said:


> I mostly mean idiomatic to the instrument based on how players are trained to play. I assume there would be different characteristic bumps and dips in CC1 particularly on attack and release for different types of wind instruments. I assume (not knowing much) this would be more dependent on "school" of training than on the particular piece.
> 
> The scripted attacks, for instance, aren't meant to sound magically real by default, and there's no scripted release. Sometimes I spend a lot of time tweaking ratios of velocity to CC1 (followed by CC1 swells or dips) to produce something that (to my ears) actually sounds like a player blowing and then settling into a sustain. Maybe I'm using the libraries all wrong or being overly pedantic, but the difference in sound quality (again, to my ears) seems enormous to me on some of the instruments after I make these kinds of tweaks.
> 
> Even if I used a breath controller, I still wouldn't know how which breaths to use to imitate a real player.



If you look at my post today where I posted the pictures of my midi data that comes out from my EWI (electronic wind instrument) you can see it is very dynamic. As each breath is kind of “unique”, playing or having a wind instrument l/controller makes it alot easier to make/understand these lines that sound natural. Writing it in with the mouse is possible but takes a lot of time to shape the cc1 to sound “human”


----------



## Ricgus3

@aaronventure Experimenting here with EWI playing. I have a hard time making the trombone sound good with the ewi. I think it is because the notes do not overlap when recording.It starts "wobbling" alot when making interval leaps. Any ideas on how to make the notes overlap in IB?


----------



## Mikro93

Ricgus3 said:


> @aaronventure Experimenting here with EWI playing. I have a hard time making the trombone sound good with the ewi. I think it is because the notes do not overlap when recording.It starts "wobbling" alot when making interval leaps. Any ideas on how to make the notes overlap in IB?


Could you record something and post here?


Your previous examples on the trumpet sound AMAZING!


----------



## sound team apk

Ricgus3 said:


> If you look at my post today where I posted the pictures of my midi data that comes out from my EWI (electronic wind instrument) you can see it is very dynamic. As each breath is kind of “unique”, playing or having a wind instrument l/controller makes it alot easier to make/understand these lines that sound natural. Writing it in with the mouse is possible but takes a lot of time to shape the cc1 to sound “human”


Yes, exactly. The MIDI I eventually produce for longer notes in IB looks somewhat like this, with sharp arrow-shaped peaks and valleys, or steep ramps into the attacks. And once I teach myself which shapes achieve the sound I want with each instrument, it's not even that hard to draw in. But I don't think I'll ever get practiced enough to play it in real-time with a MW or an expression pedal. So I wonder if those could be scripted to some degree. I use notation in my workflow (sometimes), so it would be really convenient if I were spared producing MIDI in this detail (by playing or editing) for even some notes.

I'm skeptical a breath controller would really solve my problem either, since I'm not a wind player. But maybe I should just forget all my skepticism and try one.


----------



## mussnig

Jonathan Moray said:


> Could I ask what you would like to see in a potential ensemble patch that you can't already do?


Essentially what @doctoremmet said. Ideally (in a simple unison version) there would be ensemble patches (or multis) for each type of instrument where one can dial in the number of instruments playing (e.g. 1-6 horns). The attack humanization of the individual patches already helps a lot but I guess some additional randomization of the CC curves (+other stuff?) would be needed to make it sound really good or comparable with e.g. a horns a6 patch from any other traditonally recorded library.

In a more advanced version the script would also allow for poly legato - I think there is quite a number of persons who would expect this from a modern library. Personally, I rarely use poly legato in my libs that have it, since in those cases I really want to shape the CC curves for each musical line individually.


----------



## Ricgus3

About the legato "wooble sound"

Example 1 as played in in one take




View attachment IB fast scales with EWI 1-001.mp3


_________
Example 2, exactly the same but I have selected all the notes and made them overlap by a small amount





View attachment IB fast scales with EWI 2 longer notes-001.mp3

There is a huge diffrent in sound when playing fast! Slower playing is fine and more aggresiv playing works aswell. But smoother fast lines don't work with the EWI from what I have found yet. The "legato" functions on my EWI don't seem to trigger, wher it is suppose to hold the first note until I re tongue it


----------



## Jonathan Moray

sound team apk said:


> I mostly mean idiomatic to the instrument based on how players are trained to play. I assume there would be different characteristic bumps and dips in CC1 particularly on attack and release for different types of wind instruments. I assume (not knowing much) this would be more dependent on "school" of training than on the particular piece.
> 
> The scripted attacks, for instance, aren't meant to sound magically real by default, and there's no scripted release. Sometimes I spend a lot of time tweaking ratios of velocity to CC1 (followed by CC1 swells or dips) to produce something that (to my ears) actually sounds like a player blowing and then settling into a sustain. Maybe I'm using the libraries all wrong or being overly pedantic, but the difference in sound quality (again, to my ears) seems enormous to me on some of the instruments after I make these kinds of tweaks.
> 
> Even if I used a breath controller, I still wouldn't know how which breaths to use to imitate a real player.


I'm sorry, but I still don't quite understand.

The different instrument families are different to each other. Each family has quirks and differences that are "idiomatic" for that family and those are mostly accounted for in Infinite it seems; each instrument's legato is different, you can do proper slides with the trombones and clarinets, they even handle dynamics differently, the bassoon for example uses the upper layer of the dynamics for its overblown. You don't need any scripted release sample since it's all done with real-time reverb, it's not captured in the sample itself.

Edit: I wrote this earlier but didn't post it. But for the sake of a discussion and information, I will post it anyway.



sound team apk said:


> Yes, exactly. The MIDI I eventually produce for longer notes in IB looks somewhat like this, with sharp arrow-shaped peaks and valleys, or steep ramps into the attacks. And once I teach myself which shapes achieve the sound I want with each instrument, it's not even that hard to draw in. But I don't think I'll ever get practiced enough to play it in real-time with a MW or an expression pedal. So I wonder if those could be scripted to some degree. I use notation in my workflow (sometimes), so it would be really convenient if I were spared producing MIDI in this detail (by playing or editing) for even some notes.
> 
> I'm skeptical a breath controller would really solve my problem either, since I'm not a wind player. But maybe I should just forget all my skepticism and try one.


This explains it a bit better and I think I understand what you're getting at. Sadly, I don't think there is a good way to script something like this, or at least, there will have to be quite a long look-ahead time because Infinite would need to know what coming up to create the curves, something like what you mentioned earlier with Noteperformer, but that's a big undertaking and _far_ from perfect. That's why most people refer to Infinite as being an instrument because you will actually have to spend the time to learn the instruments to use it effectively which is very different from more traditional instruments.

Anything in particular you're having trouble with? I remember your rendition of the "Silverado" theme being quite good.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

mussnig said:


> Essentially what @doctoremmet said. Ideally (in a simple unison version) there would be ensemble patches (or multis) for each type of instrument where one can dial in the number of instruments playing (e.g. 1-6 horns). The attack humanization of the individual patches already helps a lot but I guess some additional randomization of the CC curves (+other stuff?) would be needed to make it sound really good or comparable with e.g. a horns a6 patch from any other traditonally recorded library.
> 
> In a more advanced version the script would also allow for poly legato - I think there is quite a number of persons who would expect this from a modern library. Personally, I rarely use poly legato in my libs that have it, since in those cases I really want to shape the CC curves for each musical line individually.


I still don't see the upside of something like that, how it would work in practice, or how it would help someone's workflow. If you have an ensemble patch (no poly-legato) and then want to do divisi, what do you do then? Do you just duplicate the Kontakt instance, change the instruments playing so it's not the same instruments in both Kontak instances, and play the two different lines? What if it's like a 3 or 4 divis chord? Do you do four different ensemble patches? Why use a completely separate patch for this instead of multiple smaller ones played at the same time?

Could you post an example of what the ensemble sounds like on your end? Any particular instruments that you think could use more work or all the instruments?


----------



## mussnig

Jonathan Moray said:


> I still don't see the upside of something like that, how it would work in practice, or how it would help someone's workflow. If you have an ensemble patch (no poly-legato) and then want to do divisi, what do you do then? Do you just duplicate the Kontakt instance, change the instruments playing so it's not the same instruments in both Kontak instances, and play the two different lines? What if it's like a 3 or 4 divis chord? Do you do four different ensemble patches? Why use a completely separate patch for this instead of multiple smaller ones played at the same time?
> 
> Could you post an example of what the ensemble sounds like on your end? Any particular instruments that you think could use more work or all the instruments?


If I want divisi I would obviously play separate lines anyways (or say 2 groups of 2 horns). What I mean is any line where I want the whole section to play in unison (if that is a good choice w.r.t. composition is a different question) - say a heroic theme played by 6 horns in unison.

There is a reason why many (not all of course) brass libs give you (especially with the horns) different section sizes to choose from. E.g. JXL Brass gives you horns a4, a6, a12 and Century Brass gives you a2, a6, a12. Similarly, they offer different section sizes for the trumpets. It simply sounds different if 6 horns are recorded playing together instead of layering the samples of 6 individual horns (or say 3 different groups of 2 horns) - at least it is much harder to achieve with layering samples. 

From the examples I have heard (and from my own experience), IB is for sure capable to produce nice lines where ensembles play in unison but it needs quite some work. If you simply send the same midi to all 6 horns in IB it won't sound great (with the exception of short note patterns). However, it would greately improve many people's workflow if one could get away with only 1 midi clip in such situations (instead of having 6 midi clips that are all more or less the same but need to be a bit different from each other to make it work). Sure, it's great that I can have control over all 6 horns individually if I want to but for many things this is simply not needed.

I have used horns as my main example above, but the situation is quite similar with trumpets or trombones. Short note patterns work fine but anything where you want to have the whole section play a nice legato line won't sound good if you simply send the same MIDI to the individual patches.


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## Ricgus3

I managed to create a nice work around for the EWI in Reaper now! here is me improvising the Horn one, Mozarthall only. Soloist seat. Trying out fast and repetition lines here with the EWI. All in one take playing. Now it feels responsive in repetitions and fast scales/lines


View attachment IB EWI HORN FAST PLAYING with Fix.mp3


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## sundrowned

Ricgus3 said:


> I managed to create a nice work around for the EWI in Reaper now! here is me improvising the Horn one, Mozarthall only. Soloist seat. Trying out fast and repetition lines here with the EWI. All in one take playing. Now it feels responsive in repetitions and fast scales/lines
> 
> 
> View attachment IB EWI HORN FAST PLAYING with Fix.mp3


Your examples are seriously making me consider getting a wind controller. These one take examples are fantastic. 

Out of interest which model do you have or recommend?


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## Ricgus3

@sundrowned Super glad you enjoy these examples. It has taken me a few hours to get where I am now wit the EWI and IB. I have an Akai EWI 5000, it has synth engine inside it so you can just plug it into a guitar aplifier and play with it, no need for software or computer. I used it to practice at home and fusion gigs where I want a synth sound. 

But if you are only after the midi controller I think the cheaper model called EWI akai USB is good enough! Just remember I am a trained saxoplhone jazz player. The Ewi has diffrent fingering, I have set it to match my saxophone fingering. I am a horrible keyboard player so being able to use my sax-skills is amazing for me. But if you have not played an windinstrument before it can take some time to get to know it!  But do not fear! It is an amazing and fun process! I am always happy to help! i work as a saxophone teacher and orchestration/compoosing teacher. So if you pick up an EWI feel free to DM me about any questions that may help you bring Infinite series to life! 

Again, such an amazing library @aaronventure . My jaw has dropped many times when I got it working with my EWI

_________________________________
MORE EXAMPLES :D! Trombone time, testing out the Reaper legato fix! _(plugin called: Midi Length control, and is dynamic set to my breath input. If it would be static I could not play short repetitions, So i needed to tweak it abit, 0,25 seem to be smooth value, then it goes back down to 0 when i am not playing)_



Trombone example SOlO With Legato fix in reaper
View attachment IB EWI Trombone solo.mp3


Exactly the same midi but with a section. So each trombone 1, 2, adn 3 have Huminize and pitch accuracy at diffrent values.

View attachment IB EWI Trombone section.mp3


All played in at one take. Also trying push the library by playing extreme fast to smooth jumps. After stresstesting this for a while i can say that Infinite brass is really isane! 
I noticed though that playing live with the section (I had one instance of Kontakt loaded with 3 trombones) was not very nice. It was alot of phasing. When I soloed the first trombone and then un-soloed it during the playback it sounded better! So for section playing it might be best to just play it in with one trombone and then add-in the rest. Will test later with Low brass brams!


----------



## sundrowned

Ricgus3 said:


> @sundrowned Super glad you enjoy these examples. It has taken me a few hours to get where I am now wit the EWI and IB. I have an Akai EWI 5000, it has synth engine inside it so you can just plug it into a guitar aplifier and play with it, no need for software or computer. I used it to practice at home and fusion gigs where I want a synth sound.
> 
> But if you are only after the midi controller I think the cheaper model called EWI akai USB is good enough! Just remember I am a trained saxoplhone jazz player. The Ewi has diffrent fingering, I have set it to match my saxophone fingering. I am a horrible keyboard player so being able to use my sax-skills is amazing for me. But if you have not played an windinstrument before it can take some time to get to know it!  But do not fear! It is an amazing and fun process! I am always happy to help! i work as a saxophone teacher and orchestration/compoosing teacher. So if you pick up an EWI feel free to DM me about any questions that may help you bring Infinite series to life!
> 
> Again, such an amazing library @aaronventure . My jaw has dropped many times when I got it working with my EWI
> 
> _________________________________
> MORE EXAMPLES :D! Trombone time, testing out the Reaper legato fix! _(plugin called: Midi Length control, and is dynamic set to my breath input. If it would be static I could not play short repetitions, So i needed to tweak it abit, 0,25 seem to be smooth value, then it goes back down to 0 when i am not playing)_
> 
> 
> 
> Trombone example SOlO With Legato fix in reaper
> View attachment IB EWI Trombone solo.mp3
> 
> 
> Exactly the same midi but with a section. So each trombone 1, 2, adn 3 have Huminize and pitch accuracy at diffrent values.
> 
> View attachment IB EWI Trombone section.mp3
> 
> 
> All played in at one take. Also trying push the library by playing extreme fast to smooth jumps. After stresstesting this for a while i can say that Infinite brass is really isane!
> I noticed though that playing live with the section (I had one instance of Kontakt loaded with 3 trombones) was not very nice. It was alot of phasing. When I soloed the first trombone and then un-soloed it during the playback it sounded better! So for section playing it might be best to just play it in with one trombone and then add-in the rest. Will test later with Low brass brams!


Brilliant thanks. I have a fair amount of experience playing clarinet and some sax so not a complete beginner. The ewi usb looks quite reasonable. Will look into it thanks.


----------



## sound team apk

Jonathan Moray said:


> Edit: I wrote this earlier but didn't post it. But for the sake of a discussion and information, I will post it anyway.
> 
> 
> This explains it a bit better and I think I understand what you're getting at. Sadly, I don't think there is a good way to script something like this, or at least, there will have to be quite a long look-ahead time because Infinite would need to know what coming up to create the curves, something like what you mentioned earlier with Noteperformer, but that's a big undertaking and _far_ from perfect. That's why most people refer to Infinite as being an instrument because you will actually have to spend the time to learn the instruments to use it effectively which is very different from more traditional instruments.


I appreciate your patience with my poor explanation. I keep trying to shorten my posts, thereby destroying my explanation ... so instead I'll just risk embarrassing myself and get very detailed, since I still ended up implying something fancier than I mean by using the word "arc" and the term "release" (by which I mean the dip in dynamics inherent in ending a breath rather than a release sample).

Whether it's a good goal or not, bear in mind that the use case I'm focused on here is perfectionistically imitating a performance I hear in my mind or in a reference. Hence my assumption that playing things in will only get me so far without being a real wind player. I also concede that this use case at best inherently involves a lot of tweaking, and at worst is just folly.

I enter notes differently depending on the situation, but I do often play in lines to establish a baseline. I can quickly get roughly the dynamics I want and the shape of the sustain, and my ears are trustworthy enough as I play that usually this basic frame sticks. But when I'm going for a very particular attack or shape, it's hard to enter the right aggressive dynamic changes at the beginning and ends of notes to create those wedges -- or to use the right velocity at all. I also have to listen more carefully to see if I really believe these parts of the note. 

So at this point most of my time programming Infinite goes into obsessing over the beginnings and ends of notes. Since Infinite is quite sensitive (in a good way), there's a dangerous opportunity to spend a lot of time finding the sweet spot between CC1 and velocity around my dynamic level. And the payoff is high.

For example: The contorted formula I've adopted for getting certain direct-but-not-really-accented attacks often involves starting with a velocity slightly above my initial dynamic value followed soon after by a CC1 bulge of some length that quickly exceeds the original attack velocity. Sometimes this is one of the big wedges, sometimes it's more subtle. I came upon this by trial and error. I guess I'm trying to simulate the initial breath impulse / lip action with Aaron's scripted attacks, then drawing more of the initial outbreath itself with the CC1 bulge, and then the curve settles into the sustain. Whatever it is, I'm managing to get much closer to matching reference performances with the Infinite horns and (especially) trombones; I find it less necessary with the trumpets.

It's quite possible that I'm overcomplicating and could find a way within what Aaron already provides to simplify this formula. Maybe attack time (which I never touch) would help. Either way, my perfectionistic editing involves certain repetitive actions specific to Infinite's scripting that might be automatable without lookahead. For example, press a keyswitch (vile, I know) to end a note with "a characteristic breath ending" in a few lengths. Or modify the attack curve to reliably apply a couple of variants of the formula above to the beginning of a note if the existing parameters aren't sufficient. SM Brass has some switches like this (though I've never tried using them).

I mostly use Cubase, and the logical editor would do some of it (e.g., establish a velocity-CC1 relationship that I like). If attack time is part of the answer, I can create some keyswitches myself with useful default values in an expression map. Or I could write a MIDI effect or KSP to create some preset modifications to the CC1 curves. But these are all stitched-together hacks; Aaron might be able to do the equivalent a lot more elegantly. But it seems I might be his only user who would like this feature, so he should ignore me 



Jonathan Moray said:


> Anything in particular you're having trouble with? I remember your rendition of the "Silverado" theme being quite good.


I appreciate that! I'm not working on a particular issue. You helped solve my previous puzzle, and I haven't come up with a new one yet. I'm mostly grasping at straws to suggest improvements to my workflow with the library so I give Aaron better feedback than "the trombones are still harder to work with than the others." Everything I've written above is very deep into weeds that only matter for really exposed parts, if they matter at all. 

I think Aaron's already doing a great job balancing simplicity, flexibility, and cohesiveness. The default behaviors and the exposed controls typically let me accomplish a surprising amount of what I attempt with a small number of controls. They're the first semi-modeled instruments I grab for orchestra stuff, and I'm having fun learning to get more out of them.

Sorry, everyone, for my epic post ... I don't expect any replies, and I'll be (much) quieter for a while to avoid distracting from the really cool wind controller examples.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

mussnig said:


> There is a reason why many (not all of course) brass libs give you (especially with the horns) different section sizes to choose from. E.g. JXL Brass gives you horns a4, a6, a12 and Century Brass gives you a2, a6, a12. Similarly, they offer different section sizes for the trumpets. It simply sounds different if 6 horns are recorded playing together instead of layering the samples of 6 individual horns (or say 3 different groups of 2 horns) - at least it is much harder to achieve with layering samples.


Oh, now I see what you're talking about. Sadly, I do not see that happening because that would go against what Infinite is meant to be. You can't phase align an ensemble or wet samples. And I don't think Aaron is very keen on going back and recording a whole new sample-set for all possible combinations. One can always request it, of course.

I believe the point of Infinite is that you can build your own sections from solo to a24 (maybe even more) and everything in between. But if it doesn't sound good to you, it doesn't sound good, and that's usually a tradeoff with instruments like Sample Modeling, Audio Modeling, and Infinite. With the previous version of IB, I would have agreed, but with 1.6, it's very close to sounding like traditionally sample libraries when used correctly.



mussnig said:


> From the examples I have heard (and from my own experience), IB is for sure capable to produce nice lines where ensembles play in unison but it needs quite some work. If you simply send the same midi to all 6 horns in IB it won't sound great (with the exception of short note patterns). However, it would greately improve many people's workflow if one could get away with only 1 midi clip in such situations (instead of having 6 midi clips that are all more or less the same but need to be a bit different from each other to make it work). Sure, it's great that I can have control over all 6 horns individually if I want to but for many things this is simply not needed.


To each their own. This is actually what I do most of the time and it gets me 95% of the way there. No need to record individual lines for each instrument in most cases.

And I understand everybody has different tastes, but I find it strange that you think IB 1.6 to not "sound great" when you play all the Horns in unison when I do (for the most part), and I know I'm not alone in thinking that. So I'm just wondering if maybe there's something going on on your end? Maybe something we can help with? Or, and this is entirely possible, my hearing is getting worse than I thought so it's a problem on my end.


----------



## mussnig

Jonathan Moray said:


> Oh, now I see what you're talking about. Sadly, I do not see that happening because that would go against what Infinite is meant to be. You can't phase align an ensemble or wet samples. And I don't think Aaron is very keen on going back and recording a whole new sample-set for all possible combinations. One can always request it, of course.
> 
> I believe the point of Infinite is that you can build your own sections from solo to a24 (maybe even more) and everything in between. But if it doesn't sound good to you, it doesn't sound good, and that's usually a tradeoff with instruments like Sample Modeling, Audio Modeling, and Infinite. With the previous version of IB, I would have agreed, but with 1.6, it's very close to sounding like traditionally sample libraries when used correctly.
> 
> 
> To each their own. This is actually what I do most of the time and it gets me 95% of the way there. No need to record individual lines for each instrument in most cases.
> 
> And I understand everybody has different tastes, but I find it strange that you think IB 1.6 to not "sound great" when you play all the Horns in unison when I do (for the most part), and I know I'm not alone in thinking that. So I'm just wondering if maybe there's something going on on your end? Maybe something we can help with? Or, and this is entirely possible, my hearing is getting worse than I thought so it's a problem on my end.


I think you misunderstood: I don't mean new recordings, I just mean a patch with a new script that uses the recordings that are already there.

You are of course right, maybe my MIDI skills are not good enough or I use wrong settings. But I have no trouble getting satisfying results with solo instruments in IB and soundwise they can compete with solo instruments from other libs (at least to my ears). But when I send the same MIDI to multiple patches it just sounds odd to me and section/ensemble patches from traditional libs will sound much better to my ears. And of course I tried tinkering with IBs humanization and pitch accuracy and also tried various mic settings.

I can get satisfying results of ensembles playing in unison with IB but it requires that I slighlty change the CC curves and note timings for the individual instruments (or at least use groups of 2). So ideally some Kontakt script (in an ensemble IB patch) would do something like that for me. Maybe even with a lookahead option to have randomized note on/off timings.

I tried to solve this via automated random CC curve modulation with some M4L devices in Ableton Live. Problem is, that M4L can be quite a resource hog and furthermore I can't really use this solution in other DAWs (I started to use Studio One a lot) - except if I were to use IB in Live via ReWire (but that is super impractical).

What sometimes also helps is to layer IB with a traditional lib but results vary and I would prefer a solution that doesn't use other libs.

Of course this "problem" is highly subjective.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

sound team apk said:


> I appreciate your patience with my poor explanation. I keep trying to shorten my posts, thereby destroying my explanation ... so instead I'll just risk embarrassing myself and get very detailed, since I still ended up implying something fancier than I mean by using the word "arc" and the term "release" (by which I mean the dip in dynamics inherent in ending a breath rather than a release sample).
> 
> Whether it's a good goal or not, bear in mind that the use case I'm focused on here is perfectionistically imitating a performance I hear in my mind or in a reference. Hence my assumption that playing things in will only get me so far without being a real wind player. I also concede that this use case at best inherently involves a lot of tweaking, and at worst is just folly.
> 
> I enter notes differently depending on the situation, but I do often play in lines to establish a baseline. I can quickly get roughly the dynamics I want and the shape of the sustain, and my ears are trustworthy enough as I play that usually this basic frame sticks. But when I'm going for a very particular attack or shape, it's hard to enter the right aggressive dynamic changes at the beginning and ends of notes to create those wedges -- or to use the right velocity at all. I also have to listen more carefully to see if I really believe these parts of the note.
> 
> So at this point most of my time programming Infinite goes into obsessing over the beginnings and ends of notes. Since Infinite is quite sensitive (in a good way), there's a dangerous opportunity to spend a lot of time finding the sweet spot between CC1 and velocity around my dynamic level. And the payoff is high.
> 
> For example: The contorted formula I've adopted for getting certain direct-but-not-really-accented attacks often involves starting with a velocity slightly above my initial dynamic value followed soon after by a CC1 bulge of some length that quickly exceeds the original attack velocity. Sometimes this is one of the big wedges, sometimes it's more subtle. I came upon this by trial and error. I guess I'm trying to simulate the initial breath impulse / lip action with Aaron's scripted attacks, then drawing more of the initial outbreath itself with the CC1 bulge, and then the curve settles into the sustain. Whatever it is, I'm managing to get much closer to matching reference performances with the Infinite horns and (especially) trombones; I find it less necessary with the trumpets.
> 
> It's quite possible that I'm overcomplicating and could find a way within what Aaron already provides to simplify this formula. Maybe attack time (which I never touch) would help. Either way, my perfectionistic editing involves certain repetitive actions specific to Infinite's scripting that might be automatable without lookahead. For example, press a keyswitch (vile, I know) to end a note with "a characteristic breath ending" in a few lengths. Or modify the attack curve to reliably apply a couple of variants of the formula above to the beginning of a note if the existing parameters aren't sufficient. SM Brass has some switches like this (though I've never tried using them).
> 
> I mostly use Cubase, and the logical editor would do some of it (e.g., establish a velocity-CC1 relationship that I like). If attack time is part of the answer, I can create some keyswitches myself with useful default values in an expression map. Or I could write a MIDI effect or KSP to create some preset modifications to the CC1 curves. But these are all stitched-together hacks; Aaron might be able to do the equivalent a lot more elegantly. But it seems I might be his only user who would like this feature, so he should ignore me
> 
> 
> I appreciate that! I'm not working on a particular issue. You helped solve my previous puzzle, and I haven't come up with a new one yet. I'm mostly grasping at straws to suggest improvements to my workflow with the library so I give Aaron better feedback than "the trombones are still harder to work with than the others." Everything I've written above is very deep into weeds that only matter for really exposed parts, if they matter at all.
> 
> I think Aaron's already doing a great job balancing simplicity, flexibility, and cohesiveness. The default behaviors and the exposed controls typically let me accomplish a surprising amount of what I attempt with a small number of controls. They're the first semi-modeled instruments I grab for orchestra stuff, and I'm having fun learning to get more out of them.
> 
> Sorry, everyone, for my epic post ... I don't expect any replies, and I'll be (much) quieter for a while to avoid distracting from the really cool wind controller examples.


Don't apologise. This is great. I'm here for a discussion both to help others but also for myself to improve my own.

Alright, this makes more sense. I agree that I wouldn't mind having some keyswitches like the ones in Sample Modeling, although, I've learnt to do most everything without them so I'm not sure how much they would add in my own workflow since right now I'm completely keyswitch-free which is really nice. But they are so unobtrusive in Sample Modeling that it doesn't matter. Do you have an example of the swell / arc that you are trying to mimic?

I agree that the velocity/cc can be a bit finicky and feels overly sensitive sometimes. For example, 104 is too soft and 106 is too harsh and 105 might be good enough, but with the unpredictable nature of IB, sometimes it's not. It can be a bit tedious but it's a tradeoff when working with these instruments. I sometimes have to render the same part multiple times (like when having a real player do multiple takes) and pick the best parts from each take to get the performance I want.

I too spend a lot of time to get the relationship between Velocity and CC just right for the performance. When I used the instruments often, I developed a few tricks to make the editing easier, and even a handful of scripts.

Yes, the logical editor was my first thought for some simple automation of these types of tasks, but it's not especially in-depth. I know it had an update some updates ago but not sure how substantial the update was. The dongle and the shallowness of the logical edit were actually one of the main reasons why I switched to Reaper.

In Reaper you can customize anything really, and I started on a little project where I create shortcuts to create spiccatos, marcatos, swells, "releases", and so on to make it easier to work with instruments that are more modelled and need more CC input to sound good. I never finished the project, but I still plan on doing it when I get back to the music again. Although, I don't think most of this is possible with the logical editor.

An image (and maybe even an audio example) of what your midi data looks like would be appreciated to get a better idea of the type of automation you are talking about automating and that you have to do over and over again.


----------



## Ricgus3

Bass Trombone playing with EWI! Had to tweak the trombones diffrently than the horn and trumpet. Seems the Trombone is more sensitive to the legato transition? Needing more overlap for it to be smoother. 

Noodling and improvising here with the EWI and Basstrombone 1
Mozarthall and SeventhHeaven for tail


View attachment EWI IB Basstrombone.mp3


Ataching midi data if anyone is interesting in seeing how it looks when performed


----------



## sound team apk

Jonathan Moray said:


> An image (and maybe even an audio example) of what your midi data looks like would be appreciated to get a better idea of the type of automation you are talking about automating and that you have to do over and over again.


Here are two examples, both from an mf chorale passage in my latest practice mock. Sorry, the audio is still too garbage to share.

This is a trumpet line that I played in yesterday but haven't touched up at all:






I got lucky, and I'd say the sustains and overall shape are very close to the dynamics from the reference already. But look how flat it is. The remaining improvement will be mostly more dynamic note beginnings and endings.

For comparison, here's a horn part from a few measures earlier that I've touched up a bit. Hopefully you can read the tiny text annotations. This is the lead horn from an a2 line, to be doubled by a "regal horn" for "fatness":





Since this is a chorale and it's not finished, it's still not super dynamic, but it's already much more so than the untouched trumpet line.

A lot of my legato transitions have this V shape, which can be pretty sharp. I think I got this idea (indirectly) from something Aaron wrote way earlier in the thread.
The first "direct-but-not-accented" note that sounds just about the way I want has a very characteristic peak-after-attack shape, and here velocity = CC1 + 1.
Another common pattern (not shown here) that involves a fair amount of manual work is a transparent, non-slurred legato transition. My formula for this is to (1) place the notes very very close together without overlapping and (2) set a particular velocity vs. cc1 value so that the second note sounds like a continuation of the same breath.

Aaron's improved Infinite's handling of smooth curves (at least in IB 1.6), right? Maybe there I can just draw V shapes really quickly with a line / bezier tool and the script will humanize them.

But the latter two are more precise interactions with Aaron's scripting. I like to think about what I could do to make that detail work faster and more reliable. The transparent legato would particularly benefit from built-in support, since it's so precisely-defined and localized. My method works fine almost all the time, but theoretically Infinite's nondeterminism or humanization could undermine it in an exposed part.



Jonathan Moray said:


> In Reaper you can customize anything really, and I started on a little project where I create shortcuts to create spiccatos, marcatos, swells, "releases", and so on to make it easier to work with instruments that are more modelled and need more CC input to sound good. I never finished the project, but I still plan on doing it when I get back to the music again. Although, I don't think most of this is possible with the logical editor.


I use Reaper for audio recording, so it's sitting there waiting for me. I started using Cubase a few years ago for MIDI work mostly because its expression maps (which I do like to use) seemed far better than anything else at the time. If Reaticulate existed at all, I didn't know about it. I also hadn't discovered how much I like modelled instruments yet.

At this point, I don't think there's anything I do with Cubase that Reaper can't do. But I'd have to rebuild my templates...


----------



## Ricgus3

I made a late night Jam with IB trumpet 1 and my EWI. (Berza Hall, seventh heaven and a Jazz Standard: Lady Bird.)

All in one take to test flexibility on Infinite Brass and EWI together. Now it is starting to feel really smooth!

Playing the Theme once and then Improv!


View attachment Lady bird IB Trumpet and EWI.mp3


Midi data for Trumpet


----------



## blender505

Went ahead and got the Infinite Winds Ensemble bundle with the sale and... oh man... I wish I had done it sooner. I took some inspiration from the community challenge from a few months ago and made a mockup for the opening of the John Williams Olympic Fanfare. Compared to the version I had previously made with Century Brass a few months ago, it's night and day what can be done. I look forward to working these into my template.

View attachment olympics fanfare IB.mp3


----------



## Mikro93

blender505 said:


> Went ahead and got the Infinite Winds Ensemble bundle with the sale and... oh man... I wish I had done it sooner. I took some inspiration from the community challenge from a few months ago and made a mockup for the opening of the John Williams Olympic Fanfare. Compared to the version I had previously made with Century Brass a few months ago, it's night and day what can be done. I look forward to working these into my template.
> 
> View attachment olympics fanfare IB.mp3


I thought this was CineSamples' thread and was like "yeah, the hall at Sony's is something else, and I remember those shorts... Wait, what? Infinite?"

I think you could shorten some notes on the trumpet slightly, especially at the end, they would benefit from being more staccato. And not all lines have to be connected, that's a strength of IB 

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Ricgus3

blender505 said:


> Went ahead and got the Infinite Winds Ensemble bundle with the sale and... oh man... I wish I had done it sooner. I took some inspiration from the community challenge from a few months ago and made a mockup for the opening of the John Williams Olympic Fanfare. Compared to the version I had previously made with Century Brass a few months ago, it's night and day what can be done. I look forward to working these into my template.
> 
> View attachment olympics fanfare IB.mp3


Sounds super good! :O Could massage the CCs some to make it sound more "human expressive"


----------



## StormBlåst

Hi Guys!
So last weekend we celebrated midsummer here in Finland and I decided to compose a little tune, influenced by that festival.
Also, I have been in a full exploration mode about some symmetrical scales(Octatonic, Whole-tone, etc.) and have been listening to a lot of Prokofiev and Stravinsky who masterfully incorporate those scales into their music. So I tried to use the scales in a major context like this but kind of subtly.


----------



## Jamus

Ricgus3 said:


> Bass Trombone playing with EWI! Had to tweak the trombones diffrently than the horn and trumpet. Seems the Trombone is more sensitive to the legato transition? Needing more overlap for it to be smoother.


Don't forget that velocity has an effect on the legato. Low velocity will have a smoother transition and higher velocity has a more accented transition, like what you would use for rips. Amazing playing by the way. A shining example of why Infinite is literally better than every sample library out there, in my opinion of course


----------



## Juulu

Just curious, has anyone figured out a solid technique to get the vibrato to sound good in IB? Particularly the trumpet. I feel like every time I try to use vibrato it just doesn't fit right. I saw a method Cory Pelizzari used, making abrupt spikes with the mod wheel to simulate vibrato but I have a hard time doing that with my controller.


----------



## Ricgus3

Jamus said:


> Don't forget that velocity has an effect on the legato. Low velocity will have a smoother transition and higher velocity has a more accented transition, like what you would use for rips. Amazing playing by the way. A shining example of why Infinite is literally better than every sample library out there, in my opinion of course


 Thank you for the kind words! Appreciate it! Yes I notice on the keyboard I get a glissando when triggering a low velocity note. But on the Ewi I cannot seem to replicate it. Probably because velocity is tied to breath and not fingering. I have a solution for a future update: make the glissando trigger on cc#5 (portamento) as this is integrated on the Ewi!


----------



## Mikro93

Juulu said:


> Just curious, has anyone figured out a solid technique to get the vibrato to sound good in IB? Particularly the trumpet. I feel like every time I try to use vibrato it just doesn't fit right. I saw a method Cory Pelizzari used, making abrupt spikes with the mod wheel to simulate vibrato but I have a hard time doing that with my controller.


I see which videos you're talking about. I think there's a button on the interface to allow or not manual vibrato from the mod wheel, am I imagining?


----------



## shawnsingh

From 1.5 - I haven't played enough with 1.6 to know if this still holds.

Reduce vibrato depth on the beginnings of notes, and that also means that quicker notes (including legato or portato style, not just staccato) will not have much vibrato.

When bringing the depth in, experiment with both the rate of bringing it in and the amount you reach.

For held notes, vary the depth a bit and even the vibrato rate.

Might need to drop the depth just before note off 

Notes that are in the lowest range of the instrument, I think use less vibrato.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Juulu said:


> Just curious, has anyone figured out a solid technique to get the vibrato to sound good in IB? Particularly the trumpet. I feel like every time I try to use vibrato it just doesn't fit right. I saw a method Cory Pelizzari used, making abrupt spikes with the mod wheel to simulate vibrato but I have a hard time doing that with my controller.


Do you have an example of the type of vibrato you're going for? I would say the vibrato in IB is good, but not great. I like the vibrato better in both Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling. I don't know the exact reason why I don't like IB's vibrato as much, but the word that comes to mind is that it feels a bit stiff.

Here's a quick, single-take, improve line I did. After I recorded it, I went back and edited the vibrato; adding the proper fade-in after each note, adding some movement to it, and adding some small variations. This took barely 5 minutes of editing and could probably be made to sound a bit better, especially if I had some sort of reference to work off of.

Edit: Updated the audio file because I made a rather big mistake in the automation.

View attachment IB -- Trumpet Vibrato test 004.mp3


----------



## monochrome

i just use the normal vibrato depth slider while i'm playing and it sounds fine to me but i'm not a trumpet player

View attachment requiem of silence.mp3


----------



## Juulu

monochrome said:


> i just use the normal vibrato depth slider while i'm playing and it sounds fine to me but i'm not a trumpet player
> 
> View attachment requiem of silence.mp3


That's actually the sound I'm looking for. Do you leave the vibrato rate at a certain setting?


----------



## monochrome

Juulu said:


> That's actually the sound I'm looking for. Do you leave the vibrato rate at a certain setting?


yeah the rate for the whole thing is just left at about 71. I just picked a speed that sounded normal for a trumpet player and left it. I usually only ever touch dynamics and vibrato _depth_ especially since it allows me to just use 2 fingers to control the faders while I play so it's not complicated

also i have tried the buttons to the right of the vibrato settings in the past (the auto stuff) but I never really noticed a difference so i never have them on. do they actually do anything significant?


----------



## Juulu

monochrome said:


> yeah the rate for the whole thing is just left at about 71. I just picked a speed that sounded normal for a trumpet player and left it. I usually only ever touch dynamics and vibrato _depth_ especially since it allows me to just use 2 fingers to control the faders while I play so it's not complicated
> 
> also i have tried the buttons to the right of the vibrato settings in the past (the auto stuff) but I never really noticed a difference so i never have them on. do they actually do anything significant?


I see. It never occurred to me to just play around with the depth and leave the rate static. I've been doing it the other way around haha. Idk much about the auto vib button. @Mikro93 mentioned it as well but I've never noticed the buttons. I'll have to some testing later. Thank you.


----------



## scoplunk

I use the TEC BC2 and I have the vibrato depth on the bite and the vibrato speed as a tilt, so I can change the speed and the depth both at the same time. This method gives me a way to keep the vibrato from sounding static. Is it more realistic? I'm not sure. Do most players have a pretty static vibrato speed or do they, for instance, speed the vibrato up as the dynamic increases?


----------



## Trash Panda

Do you have access to Melodyne? A great way to see how real vibrato is played is to get some isolated string, brass or woodwinds lines into it and watch how the pitch fluctuates within the Melodyne editor. 

Most of the time I only see subtle changes in vibrato rates, mostly at note beginning and end. The real change comes in the amplitude of the vibrato (depth).

If you really want to finesse the performance via tweaking CCs, you could try to replicate subtle changes in vibrato rate, but if you can find the right vibrato depth for your piece and follow the curve that depth follows, it should be convincing enough in most applications.


----------



## Juulu

So, after doing a little testing, I think adjusting the depth, and maybe the rate in fine margins is my preferred method. The auto vib feature essentially lets you emulate vibrato using modulation. Aaron made some script that interprets the rate of your modulation and changes the pitch accordingly. However, in comparison to the simulated vib rate and depth, it doesn't sound quite as good. I think mostly because when you adjust the dynamics, there are also timbral shifts. It was very hard for me to get a consistent and smooth mf dynamic level while trying to emulate vibrato with my dynamics fader. Maybe some of you who use actual mod wheels will have better luck in that department


----------



## scoplunk

Yeah. I never had any luck with the playable vibrato, either. Maybe someone can make a video and show how it's supposed to work. Fortunately, the regular vibrato works pretty well.


----------



## Jamus

scoplunk said:


> I use the TEC BC2 and I have the vibrato depth on the bite and the vibrato speed as a tilt, so I can change the speed and the depth both at the same time. This method gives me a way to keep the vibrato from sounding static. Is it more realistic? I'm not sure. Do most players have a pretty static vibrato speed or do they, for instance, speed the vibrato up as the dynamic increases?


I think that the more control you have as a player the more human it will sound 

I also go with the fixed rate and manually control depth with a pedal but only because i find it difficult to have too many controls of varying types all over the desk. Sometimes i will use XY for rate/depth but i always limit rate somewhere around the middle section of CCs as too fast and too slow is a bit silly. Sometimes i will do this exact same method except both on the same foot pedal so that an increase in depth also increases rate but again with rate being limited to a small section of CC values so that the change is a bit more on the subtle side. Sort of like simulating a change from a vibrato to molto type of vibe. This i think is simple and practical as you can have restrained or dramatic vibrato on the fly without having to do some crazy yoga position to reach all the necessary controls haha

By the time i've done all that i realise i've been noodling for hours having an absolute blast PLAYING the instrument. So refreshing.


----------



## Jamus

Juulu said:


> So, after doing a little testing, I think adjusting the depth, and maybe the rate in fine margins is my preferred method. The auto vib feature essentially lets you emulate vibrato using modulation. Aaron made some script that interprets the rate of your modulation and changes the pitch accordingly. However, in comparison to the simulated vib rate and depth, it doesn't sound quite as good. I think mostly because when you adjust the dynamics, there are also timbral shifts. It was very hard for me to get a consistent and smooth mf dynamic level while trying to emulate vibrato with my dynamics fader. Maybe some of you who use actual mod wheels will have better luck in that department


I suspect this method of vibrato would be most useful with a breath controller as this i believe is how it works on wind instruments maybe :D


----------



## Ricgus3

Jamus said:


> I suspect this method of vibrato would be most useful with a breath controller as this i believe is how it works on wind instruments maybe :D



For the Ewi i produce a vibrato just as I so wheb i play the sax. I make it with my mouth to pitch the tone. The Ewi has an inbuilt “bite” sensor for this which goes to the pitch wheel. So when I do a vibrato movement with my mouth like I am used to it makes those movement in kontakt as well . So have had never had an issue with this as it is so natural with a wind controller. I do not use the vibrato by moving the modwheel fast .

I can make some examples later with different instruments!


----------



## Ricgus3

@Jamus @Juulu Here is some Trumpet examples when I play with my EWI (electronic wind instrument). I am uonly using the "Bite sensor on the mouthpiece to produce a pitch shift, which in kontakt moves the Pitch-Wheel

________________

Long note NO vibrato:
View attachment No vib.mp3


________________________

Long note WITH Performed vibrato
View attachment with mouth vib.mp3






_________________________________

Performed vibrato in Context of a line
View attachment Mouth vib in context.mp3


----------



## Mikro93

Ricgus3 said:


> @Jamus @Juulu Here is some Trumpet examples when I play with my EWI (electronic wind instrument). I am uonly using the "Bite sensor on the mouthpiece to produce a pitch shift, which in kontakt moves the Pitch-Wheel
> 
> ________________
> 
> Long note NO vibrato:
> View attachment No vib.mp3
> 
> 
> ________________________
> 
> Long note WITH Performed vibrato
> View attachment with mouth vib.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________
> 
> Performed vibrato in Context of a line
> View attachment Mouth vib in context.mp3


That is such a nice vibrato! Thanks for post all the experiments you're doing, it gives me plenty of ideas to try with IB 

Do you also own IW?


----------



## Ricgus3

Mikro93 said:


> That is such a nice vibrato! Thanks for post all the experiments you're doing, it gives me plenty of ideas to try with IB
> 
> Do you also own IW?


Thank you! I am glad you enjoy it! Hope you get some use out of it! .

I don’t own IW! I bought IB on the sale after lurking on it for quite some time but it has been abit too expensive for me, but pulled the trigger during the sale and has been totally blown away by it with the integration of my Ewi! Now I wish I had bought the whole bundle at sale . But as a saxophone player I am now really looking forward to the woodwinds! I hope he will to a woodwinds sale as well!


----------



## Mikro93

Ricgus3 said:


> Thank you! I am glad you enjoy it! Hope you get some use out of it! .
> 
> I don’t own IW! I bought IB on the sale after lurking on it for quite some time but it has been abit too expensive for me, but pulled the trigger during the sale and has been totally blown away by it with the integration of my Ewi! Now I wish I had bought the whole bundle at sale . But as a saxophone player I am now really looking forward to the woodwinds! I hope he will to a woodwinds sale as well!


Gotcha!

Don't forget that crossgrading is very much a thing, I got IB for a reeeeaaaaally good price by crossgrading during a sale.

Cheers!


----------



## Ricgus3

Mikro93 said:


> Gotcha!
> 
> Don't forget that crossgrading is very much a thing, I got IB for a reeeeaaaaally good price by crossgrading during a sale.
> 
> Cheers!



Nice! Will check it out on the website!


----------



## Juulu

Ricgus3 said:


> @Jamus @Juulu Here is some Trumpet examples when I play with my EWI (electronic wind instrument). I am uonly using the "Bite sensor on the mouthpiece to produce a pitch shift, which in kontakt moves the Pitch-Wheel
> 
> ________________
> 
> Long note NO vibrato:
> View attachment No vib.mp3
> 
> 
> ________________________
> 
> Long note WITH Performed vibrato
> View attachment with mouth vib.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________
> 
> Performed vibrato in Context of a line
> View attachment Mouth vib in context.mp3


That sounds awesome. The vibrato and tone sounds so natural. Thanks for the example


----------



## Ricgus3

Juulu said:


> That sounds awesome. The vibrato and tone sounds so natural. Thanks for the example


Thank you! A wind controller makes it more alive!


----------



## oceanic714

I locked myself in the office for a day to mockup Romantic Flight from HTTYD. Love how fun it is to sculpt legato phrases with the mod wheel 😁 the trumpets and horns in particular speak well at high dynamics.


----------



## Mikro93

oceanic714 said:


> I locked myself in the office for a day to mockup Romantic Flight from HTTYD. Love how fun it is to sculpt legato phrases with the mod wheel 😁 the trumpets and horns in particular speak well at high volumes.



That sounds like a nice office :D


----------



## Ricgus3

Aaron was super kind and replied to my mails and helped me with my Ensemble issues with the EWI. Here is an example after his own Fixes with me playing a horns a4 stack with Humanization on for horns 2,3, and 4 as following:

Horn 1, No humanization
Horn 2, Humanization on 10ms
Horn 3 Humanization on 12ms
Horn 4 Humanization on 14ms

These smaller values sounded most real to me! Will continue exploring and tweaking! 

Batman theme from memory: Horns a4 

View attachment Horns a4 EW-001.mp3


----------



## Ricgus3

Here I am testing out Trumpets a3 with the EWI. Trying of fast repetetive note a lá Fluid shorts style. I had these settings on the trumpet:

Trumpet 1: Default
Trumpet 2: Humanization 10. Transpose RR +1
Trumpet 3: Humanization 20. Transpose RR -1

Berza Hall, monstly Main mic. Seventhe Heaven Scoring Stage for long Tail

Found the Trumpets needed some bigger Humanization values to sound more realistic
View attachment Trumpets a3 RR transpose EW.mp3


Here is another "fun" experiment, I transposed them in major 3rds. resulting in only Augmented chords playing when I play 1 note on the EWI  Just silly funs! Could be usful making these multies to get difrent fast chords for "action" scenes or dissonant clusters on the fly. a lá Cory Ps Custom Scoring Multies. Got alittle Starwars and Bernard Herrmann vibe from it!

View attachment Trumpets a3 Major 3rds EW.mp3


----------



## DANIELE

Mikro93 said:


> That sounds like a nice office :D


I have to put me out of the office to do something.


----------



## DAWgSTRAW

Clarification re: Infinite Brass 1.6: LEAP motion controller compatibility.

macOS USERS, who don't already know: don't spend money on a
LEAP motion controller for Infinite Brass 1.6!

LEAP motion controller for WINDOWS (11, I assume) = yes!
Word = BEST w/latest MidiPaw s-ware, altho I assume GecoMIDI 1.3.0 also 'works'±

macOS =<Catalina:
Apparently GecoMIDI 1.3.1 (Geco.app) MIDI = functional.
Haven't tested.

My production macOS =>Big Sur.

macOS compatible:
=>Big Sur, Monterey(?).
LEAP v2.3.131549, drivers, no MIDI s-ware available none coming soon±
Would happily pay reasonable $$ for MIDI s-ware.

Have low hours w/IB-1.6.
For obvious reasons none w/LEAP motion controller.

One ASSUMES that JUST via: CC1 (mod. wheel), CC11 (exp. pedal)
other assignable MIDI controllers one may attain 50% ~ 85% of most
ON-THE-FLY timbrel, dynamic content.
When properly 'stroked' sounding like cool IB-1.6 LEAP motion controllerED demos.

OF COURSE IB-1.6 = awesome regardless. 
Altho...NICER w/a LEAP motion controller😢
Sadly, LPX 10.7.4 ≠ Windows 'compatible'😢


----------



## Jorf88

Ricgus3 said:


> I made a late night Jam with IB trumpet 1 and my EWI. (Berza Hall, seventh heaven and a Jazz Standard: Lady Bird.)
> 
> All in one take to test flexibility on Infinite Brass and EWI together. Now it is starting to feel really smooth!
> 
> Playing the Theme once and then Improv!
> 
> 
> View attachment Lady bird IB Trumpet and EWI.mp3
> 
> 
> Midi data for Trumpet


Been playing catch-up reading through this thread. There's been some great clips posted by many people, but this is pretty incredible. You've got it all dialed in pretty well, to sound like it's in the same room. Tpt performance is fantastic. 

My desire for a breath controller grows.


----------



## Ricgus3

Jorf88 said:


> Been playing catch-up reading through this thread. There's been some great clips posted by many people, but this is pretty incredible. You've got it all dialed in pretty well, to sound like it's in the same room. Tpt performance is fantastic.
> 
> My desire for a breath controller grows.



Thank you very much!  happy to hear it sounds nice! I am so impressed with how infinite brass performance. To think that it took me the same amount of time to produce these examples are they are in length of time is insane. Will have a hard time going back to a library where I have to keyswitch or setting up multie tracks just to get something similar to the things I am jus playing in now!


Still tweaking the section parts now. Pretty happy with trumpets a3 sound and the horns a4. Will work on the trombone section next! 

Then I got the idea to make a lot of different Multies for fast workflow: trombone+tuba in octaves. Horns in fiths n fourths. Trombone + trumpet in octaves… etc! Now I am longing for IW and dreaming of setting up multies between woodwinds and brass!


----------



## bFooz

Hi Aaron, I just had this idea that you could release a separate reverb plugin with all the halls and all the selectable positions. In this way, user could get the same reverb when using other libraries with the Infinites. Or even when not using the Infinites and just liking the approach of the reverb positioning.

@aaronventure


----------



## Ricgus3

Mikro93 said:


> Gotcha!
> 
> Don't forget that crossgrading is very much a thing, I got IB for a reeeeaaaaally good price by crossgrading during a sale.
> 
> Cheers!


Got the Crossgrade and will get Infinite Woodwinds tomorrow aswell! A great price! Can't wait to play around with bassclarinet!


----------



## doctoremmet

Ricgus3 said:


> Got the Crossgrade and will get Infinite Woodwinds tomorrow aswell! A great price! Can't wait to play around with bassclarinet!


Make sure to post more examples!


----------



## Ricgus3

doctoremmet said:


> Make sure to post more examples!


You can bet I will  I really love woodwinds! I have limited time but I am also eager beaver


----------



## doctoremmet

IW were my first foray into dedicated sampled woodwind territory. You’ll love these instruments.


----------



## shawnsingh

Ricgus3 said:


> Got the Crossgrade and will get Infinite Woodwinds tomorrow aswell! A great price! Can't wait to play around with bassclarinet!


Make sure to try the contrabass clarinet too. The two are quite different in a "completes the toolbox" sort of way


----------



## Steve_Karl

monochrome said:


> i just use the normal vibrato depth slider while i'm playing and it sounds fine to me but i'm not a trumpet player
> 
> View attachment requiem of silence.mp3


I was raised on trumpet -played it from age 7 to about 20 and this is very believable to me.


----------



## Steve_Karl

I did buy the bundle a few days ago but haven't yet had the time to play around with them as of yet.
Just curious ... can the brass do doits and falls? (see video below on the half valve trick)
If IB doesn't do doits and falls it might be a nice thought for a future update.
If one needed a reference for what to go for, the doits and falls in Session Horns Pro are pretty nice.


----------



## Jamus

Ricgus3 said:


> For the Ewi i produce a vibrato just as I so wheb i play the sax. I make it with my mouth to pitch the tone. The Ewi has an inbuilt “bite” sensor for this which goes to the pitch wheel. So when I do a vibrato movement with my mouth like I am used to it makes those movement in kontakt as well . So have had never had an issue with this as it is so natural with a wind controller. I do not use the vibrato by moving the modwheel fast .
> 
> I can make some examples later with different instruments!


So when doing vibrato on a real saxophone it's sort of breath pressure controlled yeah? I was thinking maybe the way it would work is if you used your breath for dynamics but also had the dynamic/vibrato function engaged it would work pretty much the same as air pressure controlled vibrato. I'm not a wind player however, except perhaps a G major scale on recorder lol

I've been window shopping Leap Motion and the TEControl breath controllers forever but my front teeth have been filled in a few times (from a bike accident when i was a child) and surely would break again if i bit anything with them haha I kind of like the idea of breath controlled dynamics/vibrato.


----------



## Ricgus3

Jamus said:


> So when doing vibrato on a real saxophone it's sort of breath pressure controlled yeah? I was thinking maybe the way it would work is if you used your breath for dynamics but also had the dynamic/vibrato function engaged it would work pretty much the same as air pressure controlled vibrato. I'm not a wind player however, except perhaps a G major scale on recorder lol
> 
> I've been window shopping Leap Motion and the TEControl breath controllers forever but my front teeth have been filled in a few times (from a bike accident when i was a child) and surely would break again if i bit anything with them haha I kind of like the idea of breath controlled dynamics/vibrato.



Not breath pressure. On the saxophone the vibrato is producerad by moving the reed With you embouchure. The embouchure is a firm hold around the reed and the mouth piece with your lips and mouth, when you relax the embouchure the note will fall in pitch, when you tighten or raise the embouchure the pitch rises. You usually hold it in between to get a nice tone and good control. 

The Ewi has a breath sensor and a bite sensor. 

The breath sensor measure the amount of air pressure coming in and that controls cc#2 (breath) and cc#11 (expreession) and I remap the dynamics to cc learn 2.

The bite sensor measures you hard your embouchure pressure is an if you “bite” the mouthpiece. Pitching the note corresponding to the amount of “bite” pressure

Hope this info helps


----------



## Steve_Karl

Jamus said:


> So when doing vibrato on a real saxophone it's sort of breath pressure controlled yeah? I was thinking maybe the way it would work is if you used your breath for dynamics but also had the dynamic/vibrato function engaged it would work pretty much the same as air pressure controlled vibrato. I'm not a wind player however, except perhaps a G major scale on recorder lol
> 
> I've been window shopping Leap Motion and the TEControl breath controllers forever but my front teeth have been filled in a few times (from a bike accident when i was a child) and surely would break again if i bit anything with them haha I kind of like the idea of breath controlled dynamics/vibrato.


I have played sax on occasion, and got good enough to record a few tracks back in the late 70s so I'm no expert, but I remember doing vibrato on alto and barri sax - and 'for me' it was reed pressure by biting down a bit harder and then releasing to a lesser pressure.
I'm sure vib. could be done with breath pressure also but I think it sounds different than bite pressure.

Trumpet also has 3 vibrato methods that I've used. Not sure if any or all are 'sanctioned' by pro teachers but it's how I did it.

First, the more subtle sounding and least common for my use - using breath pressure - slightly more and less wind alternating - like an amplitude modulation. 
Second - Slightly changing the distance between the teeth by flexing the jaw muscles.
The Third and most common for me is alternating pressure of the mouth piece against the lips/teeth by shaking the instrument along the plane from the mouth piece to the bell - horizontally - often using the valve hand - right hand - valves on a Bb trumpet for me. The third method probably moves the jaw a bit also, or not. Depends on the situation.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Steve_Karl said:


> I did buy the bundle a few days ago but haven't yet had the time to play around with them as of yet.
> Just curious ... can the brass do doits and falls? (see video below on the half valve trick)
> If IB doesn't so doits and falls it might be a nice thought for a future update.
> If one needed a reference for what to go for, the doits and falls in Session Horns Pro are pretty nice.



I haven't done many doits and falls with IB, but after 5 minutes of experimenting, this is what I got. I would like to work on it more, but my mouse is broken making everything it really, really tedious.

View attachment IB -- Doit 001.mp3


----------



## Steve_Karl

Ricgus3 said:


> @sundrowned Super glad you enjoy these examples. It has taken me a few hours to get where I am now wit the EWI and IB. I have an Akai EWI 5000, it has synth engine inside it so you can just plug it into a guitar aplifier and play with it, no need for software or computer. I used it to practice at home and fusion gigs where I want a synth sound.
> 
> But if you are only after the midi controller I think the cheaper model called EWI akai USB is good enough! Just remember I am a trained saxoplhone jazz player. The Ewi has diffrent fingering, I have set it to match my saxophone fingering. I am a horrible keyboard player so being able to use my sax-skills is amazing for me. But if you have not played an windinstrument before it can take some time to get to know it!  But do not fear! It is an amazing and fun process! I am always happy to help! i work as a saxophone teacher and orchestration/compoosing teacher. So if you pick up an EWI feel free to DM me about any questions that may help you bring Infinite series to life!
> 
> Again, such an amazing library @aaronventure . My jaw has dropped many times when I got it working with my EWI
> 
> _________________________________
> MORE EXAMPLES :D! Trombone time, testing out the Reaper legato fix! _(plugin called: Midi Length control, and is dynamic set to my breath input. If it would be static I could not play short repetitions, So i needed to tweak it abit, 0,25 seem to be smooth value, then it goes back down to 0 when i am not playing)_
> 
> 
> 
> Trombone example SOlO With Legato fix in reaper
> View attachment IB EWI Trombone solo.mp3
> 
> 
> Exactly the same midi but with a section. So each trombone 1, 2, adn 3 have Huminize and pitch accuracy at diffrent values.
> 
> View attachment IB EWI Trombone section.mp3
> 
> 
> All played in at one take. Also trying push the library by playing extreme fast to smooth jumps. After stresstesting this for a while i can say that Infinite brass is really isane!
> I noticed though that playing live with the section (I had one instance of Kontakt loaded with 3 trombones) was not very nice. It was alot of phasing. When I soloed the first trombone and then un-soloed it during the playback it sounded better! So for section playing it might be best to just play it in with one trombone and then add-in the rest. Will test later with Low brass brams!


Those are some very nice examples. Commenting on the first example only -
Initially I was wondering - is this a valve trombone?
- or is it an exceptionally good and accurate player? 
At 26 to 28 seconds - I'd be very curious to head from a real trombone player, exactly and in detail, how they would play that trill section without valves.


----------



## Steve_Karl

Jonathan Moray said:


> I haven't done many doits and falls with IB, but after 5 minutes of experimenting, this is what I got. I would like to work on it more, but my mouse is broken making everything it really, really tedious.
> 
> View attachment IB -- Doit 001.mp3


Yea. That's the start of it.
What method / process are you using?
Session Horns pro does it with the pitch wheel. Up for doits down for falls.


----------



## Steve_Karl

More thoughts on the doits and falls for brass. (not sure how it works in the real world for reeds)
If there was a filter control that would simulate the 1/2 valve(s) sound that would be really cool.
To be able to assign that to a variable midi CC would be great. 
Combine that filter with a pitch shift similar to the way the pitch wheel works.
Do one for doits and one for falls. 
So, 2 faders on a midi controller - one for doits and one for falls. 
Increased value makes for a faster doit or fall. So, a low value would make it a long doit with a strong 1/2 valve pinch - but ideally a variable 1/2 valve pinch so we hear the valves slowly closing off (pinching off) more air.
Or get it onto the pitch wheel.
Ideally we should be able to play these in real time without any midi editing / pencil work.
Just hoping and dreaming.


----------



## Ricgus3

Steve_Karl said:


> Those are some very nice examples. Commenting on the first example only -
> Initially I was wondering - is this a valve trombone?
> - or is it an exceptionally good and accurate player?
> At 26 to 28 seconds - I'd be very curious to head from a real trombone player, exactly and in detail, how they would play that trill section without valves.



Yes I am a saxophone player so I understand I am not in the correct idiomatic mode as a trombone player . I am playing “trombone” like an altosax player would , too many notes!


----------



## Steve_Karl

Ricgus3 said:


> Yes I am a saxophone player so I understand I am not in the correct idiomatic mode as a trombone player . I am playing “trombone” like an altosax player would , too many notes!


Yea. I get that. But it still sounds really good.


----------



## Ricgus3

Steve_Karl said:


> Yea. I get that. But it still sounds really good.



Thank you  I am Working on the sections now and hoping to putout some examples later!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Steve_Karl said:


> Yea. That's the start of it.
> What method / process are you using?
> Session Horns pro does it with the pitch wheel. Up for doits down for falls.


So the way I see it is that you can't exactly half-valve the instruments in IB, meaning you won't get the same overtones and quality that you would if half-valved. That might be something that could be added to a future update as well. Not sure how impossible that would be. Either way, to fake this in IB, I used a low-velocity legato paired with the pitch-wheel. It doesn't exactly get the same sound, but in context, it might work.

If I want to the doit to be a perfect 5th, I add a legato note a perfect 4th up and use the pitch wheel for the last two semi-tones. You can do this in so many different ways.

Here are two different versions. One is a bit more smooth because it's a pure slide up while the second is more stepped.

View attachment IB -- Doit-001.mp3







View attachment IB -- Doit-002.mp3


----------



## Jamus

Ricgus3 said:


> Not breath pressure. On the saxophone the vibrato is producerad by moving the reed With you embouchure. The embouchure is a firm hold around the reed and the mouth piece with your lips and mouth, when you relax the embouchure the note will fall in pitch, when you tighten or raise the embouchure the pitch rises. You usually hold it in between to get a nice tone and good control.


I did not know that. Very useful information! I would assume clarinet would use a similar technique having single reeds also. I suppose my idea might be a flute kind of thing. But then maybe i don't even know how flute vibrato works either haha


----------



## Steve_Karl

Jonathan Moray said:


> So the way I see it is that you can't exactly half-valve the instruments in IB, meaning you won't get the same overtones and quality that you would if half-valved. That might be something that could be added to a future update as well. Not sure how impossible that would be. Either way, to fake this in IB, I used a low-velocity legato paired with the pitch-wheel. It doesn't exactly get the same sound, but in context, it might work.
> 
> If I want to the doit to be a perfect 5th, I add a legato note a perfect 4th up and use the pitch wheel for the last two semi-tones. You can do this in so many different ways.
> 
> Here are two different versions. One is a bit more smooth because it's a pure slide up while the second is more stepped.
> 
> View attachment IB -- Doit-001.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment IB -- Doit-002.mp3


Thanks for trying this!
The second one is a lot closer top what I'm used to hearing.
After hearing and seeing your second one ... If I needed to do one I'd try it with more notes, to a dominant or major 7th above the starting note.


----------



## monochrome

Jamus said:


> I did not know that. Very useful information! I would assume clarinet would use a similar technique having single reeds also. I suppose my idea might be a flute kind of thing. But then maybe i don't even know how flute vibrato works either haha


i think clarinet can use a bunch of different vibrato methods depending on who you ask and if the style allows for vibrato at all but idk for sure.

yeah I think flute uses what's called "diaphragm" vibrato where lowering and raising breath amount and output does most of the work, but you would probably get made fun of if you did this on a saxophone where the method is lowering the _jaw_ to alter the pitch. I say whatever works works but usually diaphragm doesn't. 

I suck at vibrato but here's the difference between saxophone's "jaw" vibrato vs "diaphragm" vibrato

View attachment sax vibrato.mp3


----------



## Ricgus3

monochrome said:


> i think clarinet can use a bunch of different vibrato methods depending on who you ask and if the style allows for vibrato at all but idk for sure.
> 
> yeah I think flute uses what's called "diaphragm" vibrato where lowering and raising breath amount and output does most of the work, but you would probably get made fun of if you did this on a saxophone where the method is lowering the _jaw_ to alter the pitch. I say whatever works works but usually diaphragm doesn't.
> 
> I suck at vibrato but here's the difference between saxophone's "jaw" vibrato vs "diaphragm" vibrato
> 
> View attachment sax vibrato.mp3


First vibrato sounds best to me, I hear it as Jaw vibrato if I am not mistaken? I personally would not use Diaphragm vibrato, to "jumpy" for me . Nice playing also


----------



## monochrome

Ricgus3 said:


> First vibrato sounds best to me, I hear it as Jaw vibrato if I am not mistaken? I personally would not use Diaphragm vibrato, to "jumpy" for me . Nice playing also


thank you! yeah the first is the jaw vibrato

and then there is the Infinite Woodwinds alto saxophone 1 version which I should have put in the first post

View attachment IW sax vib.mp3


----------



## Ricgus3

monochrome said:


> thank you! yeah the first is the jaw vibrato
> 
> and then there is the Infinite Woodwinds alto saxophone 1 version which I should have put in the first post
> 
> View attachment IW sax vib.mp3


Wow is this Infinite Woodwinds Alto? Sounds really good for a VI sax! Just downloaded the Woodwinds now! Gonna play around with them


----------



## Steve_Karl

I finally got some time to play some of the instruments and I am totally blown away.


----------



## Ricgus3

My first playthrough of the Flute 1 with the EWI! This is just how it sounds out for the box. No reverb or EQ. just a guy and an EWI having fun! Became abit long maybe  Wanted to try out , shorts, legato, fast, repetitions, etc.... Got carried away by how amazing it sounds and just got teleported away jamin' wit this! Will continue exploring the Woodwinds tomorrow!

Enjoy my silly jamin!
View attachment Flutse test 1 EWI Flexibility-001.mp3


----------



## Steve_Karl

Ricgus3 said:


> My first playthrough of the Flute 1 with the EWI! This is just how it sounds out for the box. No reverb or EQ. just a guy and an EWI having fun! Became abit long maybe  Wanted to try out , shorts, legato, fast, repetitions, etc.... Got carried away by how amazing it sounds and just got teleported away jamin' wit this! Will continue exploring the Woodwinds tomorrow!
> 
> Enjoy my silly jamin!
> View attachment Flutse test 1 EWI Flexibility-001.mp3


That's so cool! I love it. You're making me want to buy an EWI!
I just got my first hands on with a keyboard a few hours ago and I can relate.
These instruments just make me want to play them, and even the mistakes, finger fumbles and playing on the cracks can be inspiring to try the same line, but in a way different after a fumble.
Try the humanise feature. It's subtle but it does add something nice that I can quite describe.


----------



## pcohen12

Steve_Karl said:


> I finally got some time to play some of the instruments and I am totally blown away.


Pun intended, I hope? (Yes, these truly are incredible 😂)


----------



## Steve_Karl

LOL - Didn't even think of the pun!


----------



## sound team apk

OK, @Jonathan Moray ... The first thirty seconds of this is the audio you requested last week but I refused to share. It's no longer quite so garbage except the last few seconds, which I clearly didn't bother even fully notating, let alone programming:

View attachment Silverado - End Credits (Infinite Brass) -- really early draft.mp3


(More Silverado, by Bruce Broughton. You'll probably never hear my own music.) 

It's a lot of "regal" horn and trombone practice with various slurred and non-slurred transitions. I'm still getting used to writing with the reduced dynamic range, but ... at least I'm a lot better at achieving this kind of sound now after getting ideas a few weeks ago on this thread.

Then as a "bonus" in the second half you get to hear my practice with EVERYTHING AT FF ALL THE TIME. I expected Infinite to excel at all the repeated notes and rips on the horns and trumpets, and I wasn't disappointed.

The next thing I clearly need to work on is loud low brass.


----------



## Ricgus3

Testing out the Alto flute with the EWI! Has such a beutiful Folky character. Made a drone improv over a folktune with Albion Solstice Drone

On IW Alto Flute I used Studio. Max Close mic and a little bit of Ambient mic. no Main mic.
Seventh Heaven reverb a little for the tail 


View attachment Alto Flute folk song jam test EWI.mp3


----------



## doctoremmet

Ricgus3 said:


> Testing out the Alto flute with the EWI! Has such a beutiful Folky character. Made a drone improv over a folktune with Albion Solstice Drone
> 
> On IW Alto Flute I used Studio. Max Close mic and a little bit of Ambient mic. no Main mic.
> Seventh Heaven reverb a little for the tail
> 
> 
> View attachment Alto Flute folk song jam test EWI.mp3


Your explorations are like commercial breaks for the Infinite series. Excellent examples, very very musically done! Love them.


----------



## Ricgus3

doctoremmet said:


> Your explorations are like commercial breaks for the Infinite series. Excellent examples, very very musically done! Love them.


<3 Thank you! Got very excited by exploring the woodwinds in a folkmusic way! Baritone sax with flutes and Celtic guitars! So far I have only played with the flute and alto flute. Will work my my through  I tweak them to make them perform the best for my Ewi. What is interesting is that each instrument needs different tweaks values! The alto flutes is “heavier” to play than the flute for example


----------



## Ricgus3

sound team apk said:


> OK, @Jonathan Moray ... The first thirty seconds of this is the audio you requested last week but I refused to share. It's no longer quite so garbage except the last few seconds, which I clearly didn't bother even fully notating, let alone programming:
> 
> View attachment Silverado - End Credits (Infinite Brass) -- really early draft.mp3
> 
> 
> (More Silverado, by Bruce Broughton. You'll probably never hear my own music.)
> 
> It's a lot of "regal" horn and trombone practice with various slurred and non-slurred transitions. I'm still getting used to writing with the reduced dynamic range, but ... at least I'm a lot better at achieving this kind of sound now after getting ideas a few weeks ago on this thread.
> 
> Then as a "bonus" in the second half you get to hear my practice with EVERYTHING AT FF ALL THE TIME. I expected Infinite to excel at all the repeated notes and rips on the horns and trumpets, and I wasn't disappointed.
> 
> The next thing I clearly need to work on is loud low brass.



VERY nice and warm! Love the horn sound


----------



## Steve_Karl

Here are a few things I wasn't aware of. How to get to a few things and the vibrato option for mod wheel.


----------



## Ricgus3

Hello! I have some testing I need feedback on. I played in a small legato line with my EWI on the Flute 1. I have been experimenting with the "attack range" setting. My ears are starting to fool me as I have been listening to subtle diffrences for too long alone  I need second opinions: I will post 4 examples here of the exact same midi performance on the EWI the only thing I change between rendering Is the "attack Range" knob. The attack time is set tp Velocity based.

Let me know which one of these 4 examples you find "most" realistic. Bera hall used and Mixed Mic 1. Nothing else.

0 attack range

View attachment Flute realism test 0 attack range.mp3


close to "12 o clock" attack range

View attachment Flute realism test 10 i 12 attack range.mp3


a bit past 12 o clock attack range

View attachment Flute realism test 10 över 12 attack range.mp3


Max attack range

View attachment Flute realism test max attack range.mp3



Is there any diffrence you hear?


----------



## doctoremmet

Honestly, I hardly notice any differences on first listen. As with all of Aaron’s flutes I tend to hear a slight “oboe” nasality in the tone character that doesn’t sound like a proper flute to me. I like it in a mix, but not for exposed solos. I’d be hard pressed to tell you which one has which attack setting in a blind test….


----------



## Jamus

Ricgus3 said:


> Is there any diffrence you hear?


How does the EWI handle velocity? I kind of assumed with a breath controller you could disable the attack range so the attack = dynamic and any swells or sforzando could be done with breath alone, but i don't have a breath controller so i'm not sure. I really want one though :D


----------



## Ricgus3

Jamus said:


> How does the EWI handle velocity? I kind of assumed with a breath controller you could disable the attack range so the attack = dynamic and any swells or sforzando could be done with breath alone, but i don't have a breath controller so i'm not sure. I really want one though :D


Yes I assume it would be best to have attack range to 0 (which disables it if I am correct?). The Ewi a velocity is decided by where the breath attack is. So it is basically the same as cc1! Velocity follows the curve


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Ricgus3 said:


> Hello! I have some testing I need feedback on. I played in a small legato line with my EWI on the Flute 1. I have been experimenting with the "attack range" setting. My ears are starting to fool me as I have been listening to subtle diffrences for too long alone  I need second opinions: I will post 4 examples here of the exact same midi performance on the EWI the only thing I change between rendering Is the "attack Range" knob. The attack time is set tp Velocity based.
> 
> Let me know which one of these 4 examples you find "most" realistic. Bera hall used and Mixed Mic 1. Nothing else.
> 
> 0 attack range
> 
> View attachment Flute realism test 0 attack range.mp3
> 
> 
> close to "12 o clock" attack range
> 
> View attachment Flute realism test 10 i 12 attack range.mp3
> 
> 
> a bit past 12 o clock attack range
> 
> View attachment Flute realism test 10 över 12 attack range.mp3
> 
> 
> Max attack range
> 
> View attachment Flute realism test max attack range.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any diffrence you hear?


Not the best example to test attack range since attack range only affects the attack / start of a new note, not legato notes -- at least, I'm almost certain it doesn't.

As most here have said, I too would expect attack range at 0 to be the best for wind controllers.


----------



## Ricgus3

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not the best example to test attack range since attack range only affects the attack / start of a new note, not legato notes -- at least, I'm almost certain it doesn't.
> 
> As most here have said, I too would expect attack range at 0 to be the best for wind controllers.


Thank you! I did not know it did not affect legato. That is why i did not hear any diffrence maybe


----------



## Ricgus3

@doctoremmet I totally understand what you mean with flutes having a "nasal" character, which was why i was drawn towards folkmusic instead of classcial playing with them 

I tried a improvisation on the Clarinet after some tweaking. I have now learned that Legato is not affected by the velocty timing and such . Find ait alot better for "classical" lines!

Let me know what you think of the Clarinet 1 and the EWI ! Berza hall + Seventh heaven (for tail)
View attachment Clarinet EWI 0 Attack Range.mp3


----------



## Mikro93

Ricgus3 said:


> @doctoremmet I totally understand what you mean with flutes having a "nasal" character, which was why i was drawn towards folkmusic instead of classcial playing with them
> 
> I tried a improvisation on the Clarinet after some tweaking. I have now learned that Legato is not affected by the velocty timing and such . Find ait alot better for "classical" lines!
> 
> Let me know what you think of the Clarinet 1 and the EWI ! Berza hall + Seventh heaven (for tail)
> View attachment Clarinet EWI 0 Attack Range.mp3


Quick question:

How would you bend a note on the EWI?

I feel like IW would reeeaaaallly shine there, as compared to other sample libraries, but it's not convenient to do on a keyboard, I find


----------



## Ricgus3

Mikro93 said:


> Quick question:
> 
> How would you bend a note on the EWI?
> 
> I feel like IW would reeeaaaallly shine there, as compared to other sample libraries, but it's not convenient to do on a keyboard, I find


The is 2 buttons on the thumb which pitch shift the tone. As of now it is set very high on the EWI and I need to tweak those buttons sensitivity and range to make it smooth for the IW! Right now when I have tried it it sounds very synthy  But I will continue my EWI mission and explore this feature!


----------



## Ricgus3

@Mikro93 Here is me trying it out on the Clarinet after som initial tweaking on the EWI 

BENDS!

View attachment Clarinet bends.mp3


----------



## Mikro93

Ricgus3 said:


> @Mikro93 Here is me trying it out on the Clarinet after som initial tweaking on the EWI
> 
> BENDS!
> 
> View attachment Clarinet bends.mp3


Love it! This is the kind of stuff I'm after :D
I'm pretty sure IW can pull off some non-classical sounds, like typical yiddish articulations or jazz stuff, but it's so hard to play them on a keyboard (and tedious to input in a DAW). You're on the right track


----------



## Jonathan Moray

You definitely can use IB for non-classical music. I do it all the time.

I usually don't share my own music here, but a couple of tracks I wrote some months ago. It's just a few sketches or first drafts. So they are not finished and still need a lot of touch-ups throughout also they need to be properly mixed.

Infinite would not be my first choice for something like this; they are too clean. But they can still get you most of the way there.

[REMOVED]

Here's also a quick mock-up of a trombone solo from King Kong.

View attachment King Kong - Theater - Trombone Solos (1.6).mp3


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> Not the best example to test attack range since attack range only affects the attack / start of a new note, not legato notes -- at least, I'm almost certain it doesn't.
> 
> As most here have said, I too would expect attack range at 0 to be the best for wind controllers.


Do you also use EWI or a breath controller? Velocity definitely does effect legato transition. If you click in a legato scale run and have everything 0 velocity and then again at 127, or even throw in a 127 accent on every other note it should be very noticeable.

The attack range function in Infinite might be pointless since velocity is tied to breath on the EWI. The attack range relies on velocity being above or below the dynamic control level and if your velocity matches the dynamic CC level then it is effectively disabled without even having to disable it.


----------



## Ziffles

Here's a trailer for an upcoming puzzle game I did, the brass and winds are all Infinite. Nothing else growls quite like that low brass.


----------



## Ricgus3

My favorite so far is the trumpet using the Ewi! Feels very natural to play. I made a “jazzy jam” yesterday with infinite trumpet 



Also used:
Drums: free orange tree samples kit
Double bass: art vista 
Piano: art vista 

Put it up on soundcloud as I got happy with the end result of my jazzy jam


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Jamus said:


> Do you also use EWI or a breath controller? Velocity definitely does effect legato transition. If you click in a legato scale run and have everything 0 velocity and then again at 127, or even throw in a 127 accent on every other note it should be very noticeable.
> 
> The attack range function in Infinite might be pointless since velocity is tied to breath on the EWI. The attack range relies on velocity being above or below the dynamic control level and if your velocity matches the dynamic CC level then it is effectively disabled without even having to disable it.


No, I do not.

I never said velocity didn't affect the leagto because it does. Velocity is the biggest component to the legato paired with speed.

What I said was that the attack range doesn't affect the lagato, only the attack of a note. Making it so that high or low velocity doesn't add an attack or fade on the initial note. Which is usually done with the CC itself if your using a breath controller so might be easier to disable attack range when using breath controllers. But it's a personal preference.


----------



## Jamus

Jonathan Moray said:


> No, I do not.
> 
> I never said velocity didn't affect the leagto because it does. Velocity is the biggest component to the legato paired with speed.
> 
> What I said was that the attack range doesn't affect the lagato, only the attack of a note. Making it so that high or low velocity doesn't add an attack or fade on the initial note. Which is usually done with the CC itself if your using a breath controller so might be easier to disable attack range when using breath controllers. But it's a personal preference.


Ohhh, i misread. That's my bad  Yeah i think the attack range being disabled might be the natural way for a breath controller.


----------



## Ricgus3

Jamus said:


> Ohhh, i misread. That's my bad  Yeah i think the attack range being disabled might be the natural way for a breath controller.


I have been using that setting now and find it really nice! Also since it disables the attacks and instead reacts to how one mold them with the CC it feels more "snappy" playing the EWi with it. Might be placebo though....


----------



## monochrome

short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries

View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


----------



## Jamus

monochrome said:


> short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries
> 
> View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


Amazing textures. So full of life.


----------



## monochrome

Jamus said:


> Amazing textures. So full of life.


thank you! <3


----------



## Ricgus3

monochrome said:


> short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries
> 
> View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


So beautiful!


----------



## El Buhdai

monochrome said:


> short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries
> 
> View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


This put me in a trance and then it was over. More.


----------



## monochrome

El Buhdai said:


> This put me in a trance and then it was over. More.


i appreciate that 😄


----------



## Ricgus3

Aaron was super kind and helped me connect CC#5 to trigger the Glissandos on the instruments. So i setup my EWI to use the thumb button (glide panel) to trigger CC#5 when it is pressed down.

Here is a small improvisation of me trying to utilize the Glissandos and regular legato transition in my playing! Also used the "pitch slide" on the other thumb to slide half notes  So both thumbs are working out triggering Glissandos or Pitch bends 
View attachment Trombone with GLisscontrol-002.mp3

Mostly calm and long melodies


----------



## Ethan Toavs

monochrome said:


> short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries
> 
> View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


This is absolutely gorgeous! Do you release your music anywhere? This is definitely something that I would casually listen to.


----------



## monochrome

Ethan Toavs said:


> This is absolutely gorgeous! Do you release your music anywhere? This is definitely something that I would casually listen to.


thank you so much !! that means a lot <3

I do have a soundcloud right now



but I still consider myself to be learning the basics, so the quality of my tracks are so inconsistent 😂 I think slowly I'm finding my sound tho so I'm hoping to add more to it. but I really appreciate it! :D


----------



## Mikro93

Ricgus3 said:


> Aaron was super kind and helped me connect CC#5 to trigger the Glissandos on the instruments. So i setup my EWI to use the thumb button (glide panel) to trigger CC#5 when it is pressed down.
> 
> Here is a small improvisation of me trying to utilize the Glissandos and regular legato transition in my playing! Also used the "pitch slide" on the other thumb to slide half notes  So both thumbs are working out triggering Glissandos or Pitch bends
> View attachment Trombone with GLisscontrol-002.mp3
> 
> Mostly calm and long melodies


This is exactly what I thought the trombones were missing!! Amazing job!


----------



## El Buhdai

Ricgus3 said:


> Aaron was super kind and helped me connect CC#5 to trigger the Glissandos on the instruments. So i setup my EWI to use the thumb button (glide panel) to trigger CC#5 when it is pressed down.
> 
> Here is a small improvisation of me trying to utilize the Glissandos and regular legato transition in my playing! Also used the "pitch slide" on the other thumb to slide half notes  So both thumbs are working out triggering Glissandos or Pitch bends
> View attachment Trombone with GLisscontrol-002.mp3
> 
> Mostly calm and long melodies


I may be confused. So you enabled the slides we have on trombones for all brass instruments? How?


----------



## Trash Panda

El Buhdai said:


> I may be confused. So you enabled the slides we have on trombones for all brass instruments? How?


I think he's referring to the Glide slider on the Trombone.


----------



## aaronventure

No, his EWI doesn't have velocity-sensitive keys so he couldn't play portamento. 

I wrote a short multiscript that lets you pick the CC which, when it's above value 63, locks note velocity to a selected value. So he presses the portamento button on his EWI, which locks the velocity to something like 20, and now he can play portamento. 

There's another one that lets you offset the note release, in case your EWI doesn't support legato overlap.


----------



## doctoremmet

This is what makes you such a cool developer @aaronventure


----------



## Ricgus3

aaronventure said:


> No, his EWI doesn't have velocity-sensitive keys so he couldn't play portamento.
> 
> I wrote a short multiscript that lets you pick the CC which, when it's above value 63, locks note velocity to a selected value. So he presses the portamento button on his EWI, which locks the velocity to something like 20, and now he can play portamento.
> 
> There's another one that lets you offset the note release, in case your EWI doesn't support legato overlap.



Aaron has really gone the extra mile to help
Me setup the Ewi to work great with his libraries! I can state this to be my new workflow now! Playing it in with the Ewi has really been something else!

infinite series does feel like an instrument and not a sample library. It is so alive when played with wind/breath controller to me!


----------



## monochrome

aaronventure said:


> No, his EWI doesn't have velocity-sensitive keys so he couldn't play portamento.
> 
> I wrote a short multiscript that lets you pick the CC which, when it's above value 63, locks note velocity to a selected value. So he presses the portamento button on his EWI, which locks the velocity to something like 20, and now he can play portamento.
> 
> There's another one that lets you offset the note release, in case your EWI doesn't support legato overlap.


W developer


----------



## ModalRealist

monochrome said:


> short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries
> 
> View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


Beautiful.

Would you mind saying which string and percussion libraries you're using?


----------



## yusir

Anyone knows how to make IB less bright? I found IB really good on low dynamic range (or low breath amount) but still a bit harsh.


----------



## aaronventure

yusir said:


> Anyone knows how to make IB less bright? I found IB really good on low dynamic range (or low breath amount) but still a bit harsh.


Multiband compression/dynamic EQ.


----------



## shawnsingh

yusir said:


> Anyone knows how to make IB less bright? I found IB really good on low dynamic range (or low breath amount) but still a bit harsh.


Did you mean "but still a bit harsh on low dynamics" or " but still a bit harsh on higher dynamics"?

If you felt it's still to bright in lower dynamics, maybe a straight EQ would work better than dynamic EQ.

If you felt it's too bright in higher dynamics, then in addition to what Aaron said, it's also a good idea to avoid the highest CC1 range most of the time. For example, usually stay below approx 100 CC1 and only go higher for brief moments (during attack or sustain).

Cheers!


----------



## yusir

shawnsingh said:


> Did you mean "but still a bit harsh on low dynamics" or " but still a bit harsh on higher dynamics"?
> 
> If you felt it's still to bright in lower dynamics, maybe a straight EQ would work better than dynamic EQ.
> 
> If you felt it's too bright in higher dynamics, then in addition to what Aaron said, it's also a good idea to avoid the highest CC1 range most of the time. For example, usually stay below approx 100 CC1 and only go higher for brief moments (during attack or sustain).
> 
> Cheers!


on low dynamics. Yes I rarely raise CC1 too high. No problem with harsh sound in high cc1 because it should act like that. I am working on eq of the trumpet


----------



## Marko Dvojkovic

@yusir Maybe less or no close mics at all, especially if it is in orchestral context and if you are using mics to get the depth. I used to go all close mics and mixing it myself but I admit it is easier to first try and make it work just with mic selection and then further adjust with mixing if needed, and infinite Woods and Brass seem to blend pretty well with other stuff I am using without much external processing, for brass I mostly use ambient mics, maybe a touch of close mic for some instruments that lack definition and bite only with ambient mic.
But I see you, I just finished a track and I still had to roll off some of the high end with a shelf for trombones. It was fortissimo part where it bothered me and high freqs poked a bit too much but I used the regular eq not dynamic one or a multiband compressor and it worked.


----------



## Airbus A380

As I got infinite brass, I switched out previous brass instruments for the el camino horn feature section and hastily inserted dynamics into it. I was genuinely surprised at how expressive and articulate these instruments are1
View attachment el camino horn feature.mp3


----------



## aaronventure

Airbus A380 said:


> As I got infinite brass, I switched out previous brass instruments for the el camino horn feature section and hastily inserted dynamics into it. I was genuinely surprised at how expressive and articulate these instruments are1
> View attachment el camino horn feature.mp3


Your players are gonna blow their lungs out


----------



## Denkii

Everytime I get a push message on my phone that Aaron posted something in this thread I get unreasonably excited. And then the letdown. Oh boy the letdown.
But also everytime I am glad to see he's still well.
The great wait continues.


----------



## aaronventure

Denkii said:


> Everytime I get a push message on my phone that Aaron posted something in this thread I get unreasonably excited.


When the moment comes, that post will not be in this thread 



Denkii said:


> great wait


Great wait = great stuff.


----------



## Denkii

aaronventure said:


> Great wait = great stuff.


Yes but it's a waiting game with many strings attached. So it's not easy.


----------



## DANIELE

Denkii said:


> Everytime I get a push message on my phone that Aaron posted something in this thread I get unreasonably excited. And then the letdown. Oh boy the letdown.
> But also everytime I am glad to see he's still well.
> The great wait continues.


Aaron already answered but I was just about to say the same he already did.

Everytime I see a new post in this thread I hope no more about an update on IS. Every Infinite owner will get an email for sure when IS will be out. And then there will be a post on the commercial section, not here. This is an "unofficial" thread.



aaronventure said:


> Great wait = great stuff.


Not always but in this case I'm very very very sure!


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure still got future plans for 'ethnic' instruments, for a lack of a better word? I reckon your stuff would really cause problems for other developers in this area.


----------



## Ricgus3

I like music said:


> @aaronventure still got future plans for 'ethnic' instruments, for a lack of a better word? I reckon your stuff would really cause problems for other developers in this area.


I would love some ethnic flutes and Asian instruments!


----------



## PerryD

If Aaron Venture were a Marvel character, he would have to have a mysterious & diabolical theme...  Infinite Brass.


----------



## yusir

PerryD said:


> If Aaron Venture were a Marvel character, he would have to have a mysterious & diabolical theme...  Infinite Brass.


This actually sounds like a monster came out in Ultraman.


----------



## Tanarri

I want/need a new strings library, but IB has spoiled me so much I didn't even buy the OT stuff when it was 50% off and I'm just waiting for Infinite Strings.
I bet it will be able to do all the stuff only specialized libraries do and even they do not do it as well IS will.


----------



## Ricgus3

Tanarri said:


> I want/need a new strings library, but IB has spoiled me so much I didn't even buy the OT stuff when it was 50% off and I'm just waiting for Infinite Strings.
> I bet it will be able to do all the stuff only specialized libraries do and even they do not do it as well IS will.


I am in the same boat. I have bought a few string library’s for my bread n butter but I don’t think I will buy anything else now after I bought IW bundle on the sale. Really hope IS is not far off


----------



## duringtheafter

Hi, all,

I've been working on a mockup of _The Mission Theme (NBC News)_ using IB and IW for a while. (To be honest, this is one of the pieces I keep returning to over the last 10 years every time I get a better set of sounds.) I'm in that phase of tweaking and over-tweaking and getting sonically "lost" - I could use some feedback on the overall sound, mix, etc.!

If this should be posted elsewhere, let me know.

Brass: Infinite
Woodwinds: Infinite
Strings: CSS
Perc: True Strike 1

Infinite instruments are using Mixed Mic 2 in Bersa Hall
A bit of reverb tail across all instruments through Altiverb
And a bit of tape noise as well to tie everything together


----------



## Denkii

I have a life hack for everyone here!
If you ever forget what year it is, visit https://www.aaronventure.com/ and look up the number in this picture:





So far it has been accurate since this page went online.
It's incredible.
You're welcome


----------



## Denkii

duringtheafter said:


> Hi, all,
> 
> I've been working on a mockup of _The Mission Theme (NBC News)_ using IB and IW for a while. (To be honest, this is one of the pieces I keep returning to over the last 10 years every time I get a better set of sounds.) I'm in that phase of tweaking and over-tweaking and getting sonically "lost" - I could use some feedback on the overall sound, mix, etc.!
> 
> If this should be posted elsewhere, let me know.
> 
> Brass: Infinite
> Woodwinds: Infinite
> Strings: CSS
> Perc: True Strike 1


Can I ask what room tone you are using?


----------



## duringtheafter

Denkii said:


> Can I ask what room tone you are using?


Just updated my original post. Bersa Hall, mixed mic 2 across all IW and IB instruments.


----------



## Denkii

duringtheafter said:


> Just updated my original post. Bersa Hall, mixed mic 2 across all IW and IB instruments.


Sorry i mean...when the piece starts, you can clearly hear some noise *before* the instruments start playing so I assume you're using some room tone? I'd like to know which one that is.


----------



## I like music




----------



## Denkii

INFINITE STRINGS WHEN!?


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> So far it has been accurate since this page went online.
> It's incredible.
> You're welcome


Except when it wasn't, and it showed the previous year for a while. Maybe Infinite Strings actually released on that year on this timeline, but we had a tear in reality. The actual library (and the Aaron Venture who created it) clipped through the tear and found themselves in a different timeline, where by now he's already created two post-launch updates and added ukuleles in a content expansion. In our timeline, we were left with the outdated release date on the website and the Aaron Venture who's still plugging away at the library.

... Or maybe he just forgot to update his website idk 🤷‍♂️


----------



## gedlig

El Buhdai said:


> Except when it wasn't, and it showed the previous year for a while. Maybe Infinite Strings actually released on that year on this timeline, but we had a tear in reality. The actual library (and the Aaron Venture who created it) clipped through the tear and found themselves in a different timeline, where by now he's already created two post-launch updates and added ukuleles in a content expansion. In our timeline, we were left with the outdated release date on the website and the Aaron Venture who's still plugging away at the library.
> 
> ... Or maybe he just forgot to update his website idk 🤷‍♂️


You're still stuck living in linear time. Not Aaron. He transcended this constraining construct and experiences all time at once, only limiting his power level to match mere mortals when updating the release date on the site.


----------



## doctoremmet

That was a phenomenon called gravitational lensing. The power of Infinite Strings is so humongously huge, it actually warps spacetime which perfectly explains why that number appeared to be out of sync.


----------



## Denkii

I wonder if he wakes up on some days, reads this and goes "these people are idiots" ...or...he wakes up, reads this and develops an absolute god complex.
Why not both?


----------



## ModalRealist

Anyone give an opinion on whether IB sounds _sufficiently_ natural in the MIR version of this playlist, or whether I've completely borked it? I've deliberately tried to go for a slightly more 'close mic'd' sound with the MIR version. Spitfire Studio Brass included as another alternative listening point.



Edit: added the NotePerformer output too!


----------



## duringtheafter

Denkii said:


> Sorry i mean...when the piece starts, you can clearly hear some noise *before* the instruments start playing so I assume you're using some room tone? I'd like to know which one that is.


Ah, sorry, gotcha. It is RC-20 Retro Color using a small bit of noise (the "Studio Ambience 1" setting).


----------



## Trash Panda

ModalRealist said:


> Anyone give an opinion on whether IB sounds _sufficiently_ natural in the MIR version of this playlist, or whether I've completely borked it? I've deliberately tried to go for a slightly more 'close mic'd' sound with the MIR version. Spitfire Studio Brass included as another alternative listening point.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: added the NotePerformer output too!



I think the MIR version sounds good, but it's certainly not a comparable setup. You'd have to do the IB Studio IRs with a similar close mic setup for proper comparison.


----------



## El Buhdai

Denkii said:


> I wonder if he wakes up on some days, reads this and goes "these people are idiots" ...or...he wakes up, reads this and develops an absolute god complex.
> Why not both?


My favorite part is how he seemingly has a policy to never respond to our nonsense, so all we can do is speculate on his thoughts as he reads. That honestly makes it even more fun. 😏


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

hey,
just wanted to share a fan-made Scream cue using primarily Infinite Brass:


----------



## TimCox

IB and IW are just magical:


----------



## Jamus

All these Infinite demos are getting insanely good, like holy cow!


----------



## ModalRealist

Really looking forward to Infinite Percussion. 👍


----------



## I like music

ModalRealist said:


> Really looking forward to Infinite Percussion. 👍


You straight given up on Strings?


----------



## Russell Anderson

Man, Infinite Percussion will _really_ test the IR approach. It could end up being really good, but man, the microphone-fu (and IMO the impulse-source-fu)...


----------



## I like music

Russell Anderson said:


> Man, Infinite Percussion will _really_ test the IR approach. It could end up being really good, but man, the microphone-fu (and IMO the impulse-source-fu)...


You, too, have skipped the Strings?!

Russell, snap to it man! You know if we don't remind Aaron on a daily basis that the strings still haven't been released, he might just forget about them!

Speaking of, where the hell is Muziksculp when you need him most?


----------



## Loïc D

TimCox said:


> IB and IW are just magical:



I really like the mix.
Would you share some details ? (which IR, which position, additional reverb, etc.)


----------



## doctoremmet

I like music said:


> You, too, have skipped the Strings?!
> 
> Russell, snap to it man! You know if we don't remind Aaron on a daily basis that the strings still haven't been released, he might just forget about them!
> 
> Speaking of, where the hell is Muziksculp when you need him most?


Nice try there I Like Muziksculp. Just because you’re holding back on the bold cyan fonts, doesn’t mean we’re not on to you


----------



## gedlig

I like music said:


> You, too, have skipped the Strings?!
> 
> Russell, snap to it man! You know if we don't remind Aaron on a daily basis that the strings still haven't been released, he might just forget about them!
> 
> Speaking of, where the hell is Muziksculp when you need him most?


Should I already add +365 months to the counter?


----------



## TimCox

Loïc D said:


> I really like the mix.
> Would you share some details ? (which IR, which position, additional reverb, etc.)


Sure! I'm using the studio IR on everything with pretty basic settings except that all of the brass have the ambient mics a bit lower and trumpets also have the close mics lowered. Winds are stock with the same IR. The sections are going to instances of Altiverb set for Teldex and then the whole orchestra is further sent to one single hall reverb mixed pretty low


----------



## DANIELE

ModalRealist said:


> Really looking forward to Infinite Percussion. 👍


You are still a beginner, I'm waiting for Infinite Choirs.


----------



## monochrome

on a real note tho I'm waiting for whatever these brass and woodwind updates are





hopefully we don't have to wait for strings to release to get these but I doubt it


----------



## I like music

monochrome said:


> on a real note tho I'm waiting for whatever these brass and woodwind updates are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hopefully we don't have to wait for strings to release to get these but I doubt it


I have a feeling the updates happen before the strings...
And I can't wait to see what they are.


----------



## DANIELE

monochrome said:


> on a real note tho I'm waiting for whatever these brass and woodwind updates are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hopefully we don't have to wait for strings to release to get these but I doubt it


Usually Aaron gives priority to the updates of the library already on the market.

In this case I think it depends on the development status of IS.


----------



## Mikro93

DANIELE said:


> You are still a beginner, I'm waiting for Infinite Choirs.



Infinite M a n d o l i n s


----------



## Tfis

A little jazz tune with the infinite trumpet


----------



## Juulu

Something in progress. IB sounds really good here, but I'm still trying to figure out how to space the instruments.

View attachment Astromadeus's March.mp3


----------



## Ethan Toavs

I used a lot of Infinite Brass in this adventure/action cue I recently composed. This library will never stop being my workhorse.


----------



## Jamus

Juulu said:


> Something in progress. IB sounds really good here, but I'm still trying to figure out how to space the instruments.
> 
> View attachment Astromadeus's March.mp3


Something about this gives me Zelda vibes, perhaps because of the percussion work. Either way it's good.


----------



## Juulu

Jamus said:


> Something about this gives me Zelda vibes, perhaps because of the percussion work. Either way it's good.


Thanks. I get a lot of inspiration from Japanese composers, so you're probably hearing a bit of their influence.


----------



## Jamus

Juulu said:


> Thanks. I get a lot of inspiration from Japanese composers, so you're probably hearing a bit of their influence.


Same. Mostly from the Nintendo world. It fascinates me because something about that type of music and the melodies in particular is so distinctly in that Japanese style and yet i don't know why or what it is that makes it so distinct haha whatever it is i guess i hear it in your piece.


----------



## MBulteau

Speaking of which, I've been relying on Infinite Winds to finish the revisions of a large opera I'm writing based on Zelda Majora's Mask, and I've been using LA Scoring Strings while I patiently wait for Infinite [REDACTED].

I post a few periodic instrumental youtube shorts as I go along, here's one that is almost just woodwinds, with Bersa Hall reverb to match the typically dry opera house pits I'm familiar with.


----------



## Robert_G

Honestly......Im betting on being 6 feet under before the strings are released.


----------



## MBulteau

DON'T MENTION THE SACRED SOUNDS


----------



## monochrome

made a lil snippet of paul creston's saxophone sonata op 19 movement 2 with IW alto sax

it's a live playthrough and I didn't fix the mistakes I mostly just wanted to see what it would sound like

View attachment IW alto sax 1 creston.mp3


edit: revision
View attachment creston take 2.mp3


----------



## Jamus

MBulteau said:


> Speaking of which, I've been relying on Infinite Winds to finish the revisions of a large opera I'm writing based on Zelda Majora's Mask, and I've been using LA Scoring Strings while I patiently wait for Infinite [REDACTED].
> 
> I post a few periodic instrumental youtube shorts as I go along, here's one that is almost just woodwinds, with Bersa Hall reverb to match the typically dry opera house pits I'm familiar with.



This sounds fantastic!


----------



## jason3.14

Hello Infinite users!

I just recently purchased IB with much anticipation, though I've mainly been troubleshooting while starting to use it. Would someone be able to explain this behavior to me?

I'm playing a repetitive chord in Horn 1 with Legato Bypass on, and Pitch Accuracy is set to maximum, but it sounds pretty out of tune?









View attachment IB_French_Horn_1_Chord-002.mp3


Even when I play a single note ostinato with Legato Bypass off, it still sounds out of tune?
View attachment IB_French_Horn_1.mp3


Thanks, I really appreciate it!


----------



## Ethan Toavs

jason3.14 said:


> Hello Infinite users!
> 
> I just recently purchased IB with much anticipation, though I've mainly been troubleshooting while starting to use it. Would someone be able to explain this behavior to me?
> 
> I'm playing a repetitive chord in Horn 1 with Legato Bypass on, and Pitch Accuracy is set to maximum, but it sounds pretty out of tune?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment IB_French_Horn_1_Chord-002.mp3
> 
> 
> Even when I play a single note ostinato with Legato Bypass off, it still sounds out of tune?
> View attachment IB_French_Horn_1.mp3
> 
> 
> Thanks, I really appreciate it!


That is strange - with those exact settings, the pitch should sound perfectly fine. The only way I was able to replicate what I heard from your audio file, was to set the "pitch accuracy" knob all the way to the left. Did you accidentally put in some automation for that somewhere? If not, the only thing I can suggest is to close and reload the instrument.


----------



## Jerner

Happens on my end too, most noticeably on the horns. The other brass seems fine. Maximum accuracy doesn't go to literally perfect, probably to prevent hurried programming from sounding overly artificial, but the ceiling for the horns seems really low.


----------



## mussnig

I sometimes had a bug where for some reason IB thought I touched the pitch bend wheel (although no midi automation was present). By wiggling the wheel I could reset the behavior.


----------



## Wendolinny

I could reproduce this behaviour by modifying the 14-bit CC1: Apparently this uses both CC1 and CC33 (= the Pitch Accuracy CC, surprise!) to enlarge the bitdepth of a single CC to 14-bit instead of 7-bit. So if the 14-bit CC1 is modified, both CC1 and CC33 are modified as well. Obviously you need a VST that supports this, which isn't the case here. Using the regular ("7-bit") CC1 should work fine though, never had any problems with it.


----------



## jason3.14

Really appreciate everyone's feedback so far.
@Ethan Toavs Hmm, well just to make sure I made a brand new project in Reaper, and tried this line again on the current settings (though maybe tried through Bersa Hall as well). So, My only CC automation should be Mod Wheel CC1:








View attachment IB Horn 1.mp3


I rendered a few times though this render seemed to be the most noticeable.

@Jerner I see, so do you mainly notice it in this kind of context as well, I guess fast repetitive rhythms/ostinatos?

@mussnig Thanks for the suggestion - I tried wiggling the pitch bend in the Kontakt UI if that's what you were referring to, though I'm not sure if it solved it or not.

@Wendolinny Very Interesting - I'm not sure if I know what I'm using, but can I assume I'm using the standard 7 bit CC1 rather than accidentally the 14 bit version? Wonder how to check/know.

I'm also not sure if this has been discussed before - I tried reading the thread but made it through ~ 30 pages out of the 340 so far, haha.


----------



## Wendolinny

In your screenshot, "01 Mod Wheel MSB" is selected which is the 7-bit version. The 14-bit version is called "01/33 Mod Wheel 14-bit" (at least in REAPER). Here’s a screenshot to clarify:





Since anything you showed us suggests that an accidental Pitch Accuracy change should be impossible, I’d agree with Jerner that fast repetitions at high velocities have been scripted somewhat loose with regard to intonation.


----------



## jason3.14

Wendolinny said:


> In your screenshot, "01 Mod Wheel MSB" is selected which is the 7-bit version. The 14-bit version is called "01/33 Mod Wheel 14-bit" (at least in REAPER). Here’s a screenshot to clarify:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since anything you showed us suggests that an accidental Pitch Accuracy change should be impossible, I’d agree with Jerner that fast repetitions at high velocities have been scripted somewhat loose with regard to intonation.


Thanks for the information - Hmm.. OK, I'll keep this in mind as I use the library. Wonder if others would be able to confirm this is the behavior they experience in this context, just to make sure? FYI my tempo is set at 120 bpm. Happy to provide MIDI, though it's really just that straightforward line screenshotted.


----------



## Ricgus3

jason3.14 said:


> Really appreciate everyone's feedback so far.
> @Ethan Toavs Hmm, well just to make sure I made a brand new project in Reaper, and tried this line again on the current settings (though maybe tried through Bersa Hall as well). So, My only CC automation should be Mod Wheel CC1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment IB Horn 1.mp3
> 
> 
> I rendered a few times though this render seemed to be the most noticeable.
> 
> @Jerner I see, so do you mainly notice it in this kind of context as well, I guess fast repetitive rhythms/ostinatos?
> 
> @mussnig Thanks for the suggestion - I tried wiggling the pitch bend in the Kontakt UI if that's what you were referring to, though I'm not sure if it solved it or not.
> 
> @Wendolinny Very Interesting - I'm not sure if I know what I'm using, but can I assume I'm using the standard 7 bit CC1 rather than accidentally the 14 bit version? Wonder how to check/know.
> 
> I'm also not sure if this has been discussed before - I tried reading the thread but made it through ~ 30 pages out of the 340 so far, haha.


Try a online rendering in reaper.don’t render full speed. I had issues with infinite when rendering offline at fast speeds


----------



## jason3.14

Ricgus3 said:


> Try a online rendering in reaper.don’t render full speed. I had issues with infinite when rendering offline at fast speeds


Thanks I will try that out - although even before rendering, I hear the pitch variation simply on playback. Could you clarify what issues you had with infinite with offline rendering?


----------



## Ricgus3

jason3.14 said:


> Thanks I will try that out - although even before rendering, I hear the pitch variation simply on playback. Could you clarify what issues you had with infinite with offline rendering?


It was as if reaper or IB could not keep up when rendering. Offline rendering made it sound like a mess probably due to all the CC midi data being thrown out of sync with the notes


----------



## jason3.14

Ricgus3 said:


> It was as if reaper or IB could not keep up when rendering. Offline rendering made it sound like a mess probably due to all the CC midi data being thrown out of sync with the notes


Interesting thanks


----------



## sound team apk

So, true story: I dreamt last night that I met Aaron on the street. Maybe he was in town recording Infinite IRs of our excellent concert hall (I so wish that were true ...). We had coffee and talked about pitch accuracy and psychoacoustics. I probably praised the Infinite bassoons, which I used a lot yesterday.

I think possibly I've gone off the deep end.

And no, he didn't say anything about <<<REDACTED TO AVOID FURTHER PENALTY>>>.


----------



## Jerner

Infinite IRs (Infinite Space, catchy) is a good idea though. I've wanted to place other instruments or things in the same spaces as the orchestra. The same IRs and interface but as an effect plugin.


----------



## El Buhdai

sound team apk said:


> I probably praised the Infinite bassoons, which I used a lot yesterday.


I'm really craving that final update to bring Infinite Woodwinds to the same level of tone quality as the current version of Infinite Brass.


----------



## jesussaddle

El Buhdai said:


> I'm really craving that final update to bring Infinite Woodwinds to the same level of tone quality as the current version of Infinite Brass.


Yes, Infinite Brass is very useful at this stage. Couldn't be happier with the purchase.


----------



## Jerner

@jason3.14 Yeah, exactly. Horns 1 and 2 here both have maximum pitch accuracy, still awful at times. All the instruments do it to some degree. It seems to be somewhat range-dependant too which I guess is sort of realistic but not this much. Perhaps it's just more noticeable on the horns, either way it does seem to need some more tweaking overall.


----------



## DANIELE

Did you all write to Aaron about the issue? He can sort this out for sure.


----------



## jason3.14

DANIELE said:


> Did you all write to Aaron about the issue? He can sort this out for sure.


Good idea, I'll do that


----------



## TimCox

Juulu said:


> Thanks. I get a lot of inspiration from Japanese composers, so you're probably hearing a bit of their influence.


Definitely getting that smaller stage sound that you get from a lot of anime and Japanese games, I love it


----------



## PerryD

The original "Conan the Barbarian" was on TV yesterday. Among my favorite film scores. I imagined myself trying to write a short cue in that style. Infinite horns, trombones, trumpets, tuba, English horn, clarinets, bass clarinet and bassoon. Samplemodeling Strings, Audio Imperia Chorus. The composer of the original soundtrack (Basil Poledouris) died far too young from cancer. :/


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> The original "Conan the Barbarian" was on TV yesterday. Among my favorite film scores. I imagined myself trying to write a short cue in that style. Infinite horns, trombones, trumpets, tuba, English horn, clarinets, bass clarinet and bassoon. Samplemodeling Strings, Audio Imperia Chorus. The composer of the original soundtrack (Basil Poledouris) died far too young from cancer. :/


Sounds great!!! Now do "Lonesome Dove" by him (just kidding, but that's also awesome)
I liked how the strings blended with the Infinite stuff. You'll probably tire of this question, and it is possible you've already answered it before, but roughly what sort of ambience have you applied to the strings?


----------



## PerryD

I like music said:


> Sounds great!!! Now do "Lonesome Dove" by him (just kidding, but that's also awesome)
> I liked how the strings blended with the Infinite stuff. You'll probably tire of this question, and it is possible you've already answered it before, but roughly what sort of ambience have you applied to the strings?


 Thanks! I like the large chamber from Sunset Sound Studio Reverb. I have lots of great orchestral reverbs but Sunset Sound just has a great vibe for so many things. Basil also scored "Flesh + Blood" A tough movie to watch but a nice soundtrack!


----------



## I like music

PerryD said:


> Thanks! I like the large chamber from Sunset Sound Studio Reverb. I have lots of great orchestral reverbs but Sunset Sound just has a great vibe for so many things. Basil also scored "Flesh + Blood" A tough movie to watch but a nice soundtrack!


Great, thanks! So you basically take the dry strings, chuck them straight into a reverb?! 

Flesh + Blood. I've never seen it, but will definitely check it out. Again, nice work!


----------



## Ricgus3

View attachment brass ensmeble for punch-001.mp3



Hi all! I have been tinkering alot with ensemble bulding and workflow efficency with my EWI. Creating tools la @Cory Pelizzari to make my writing process faster. As I really enjoy using my EWI in my composing I now experimenting with setting up diffrent multies that will give me fast tools when composing that sound great. 

The first experiment (normal sections have already been made but that is not as interesting as multies  imo ) Is creating a heavy brass section tweaked for PUNCHY! Staccato broody ostinatos or lines. I have made some settings such as: Reduced the range for trumpet 1 so it only comes in at higher pitch range, also it plays one octave above. Tuba and Bass Trombone 8ba (one octave down). Also used diffrent seatings for a wider sound, such a great tool made by @aaronventure to be able to put the players in diffrent positions in the room. Let me know what you think of this combination! 

_Improvised with EWI, no metronome click just free playing so it is abit sloppy on my end _


----------



## Fibigero

@aaronventure I was just watching this video and really liked the glissandi effect that we hear/see at 04:27min here:  

Can you already say something about if this type of glissandi will be possible with the upcoming strings library? That would be a huge selling point for me if it could do that. Most string libraries that do offer an fx section, usually just have prerecorded phrases that are random and where you can't really do much to customize it


----------



## DANIELE

Fibigero said:


> @aaronventure I was just watching this video and really liked the glissandi effect that we hear/see at 04:27min here:
> 
> Can you already say something about if this type of glissandi will be possible with the upcoming strings library? That would be a huge selling point for me if it could do that. Most string libraries that do offer an fx section, usually just have prerecorded phrases that are random and where you can't really do much to customize it



By knowing the already existing AV libraries I would say that it will be possible.


----------



## FireGS

aaaaaaaand y'all just added a month.


----------



## DANIELE

FireGS said:


> aaaaaaaand y'all just added a month.


No no, I answered the question just to prevent Aaron from doing it. So we are safe.


----------



## mussnig

Ricgus3 said:


> View attachment brass ensmeble for punch-001.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> Hi all! I have been tinkering alot with ensemble bulding and workflow efficency with my EWI. Creating tools la @Cory Pelizzari to make my writing process faster. As I really enjoy using my EWI in my composing I now experimenting with setting up diffrent multies that will give me fast tools when composing that sound great.
> 
> The first experiment (normal sections have already been made but that is not as interesting as multies  imo ) Is creating a heavy brass section tweaked for PUNCHY! Staccato broody ostinatos or lines. I have made some settings such as: Reduced the range for trumpet 1 so it only comes in at higher pitch range, also it plays one octave above. Tuba and Bass Trombone 8ba (one octave down). Also used diffrent seatings for a wider sound, such a great tool made by @aaronventure to be able to put the players in diffrent positions in the room. Let me know what you think of this combination!
> 
> _Improvised with EWI, no metronome click just free playing so it is abit sloppy on my end _


Maybe I am too stupid but how did you limit the range and/or transpose? I tried to do something like this with Kontakts built-in scripts/presets but it was quite cumbersome.


----------



## Ricgus3

mussnig said:


> Maybe I am too stupid but how did you limit the range and/or transpose? I tried to do something like this with Kontakts built-in scripts/presets but it was quite cumbersome.








here


----------



## Fibigero

FireGS said:


> aaaaaaaand y'all just added a month.


lol was there some kind of rule established by him not to mention the library? I haven't followed every post in here.


----------



## mussnig

Ricgus3 said:


> here


Thank you! I feel super stupid now because I've opened that menu many, many times in the past (but for a different purpose).


----------



## Ricgus3

Tweaked the heavy brass ensemble some more! Removed the brasstrombone as it was not a thickbone, added contrabass trombone instead! More thivkyness! used premixed instead and also some SH-reverb for tail. Compressed the range of Horn 2 and CBbone aswell. So at high register it is only Tenor Trombone, Horn 1, And 8va Trumpet1

Much more happy with this result! Here is some long silly noodling from me on EWI. Also utilized the glide buttons on the EWI !Fun stuff!

View attachment Improved brass ensemble.mp3


----------



## RogiervG

i really like infinite strings.


----------



## Trash Panda

Ricgus3 said:


> Tweaked the heavy brass ensemble some more! Removed the brasstrombone as it was not a thickbone, added contrabass trombone instead! More thivkyness! used premixed instead and also some SH-reverb for tail. Compressed the range of Horn 2 and CBbone aswell. So at high register it is only Tenor Trombone, Horn 1, And 8va Trumpet1
> 
> Much more happy with this result! Here is some long silly noodling from me on EWI. Also utilized the glide buttons on the EWI !Fun stuff!
> 
> View attachment Improved brass ensemble.mp3


FYI, you can get some really nice, thick JXL Brass style weight out of the trombones. Just apply a bit of tape style saturation that emphasizes the low end. I really like Spectre for this.


----------



## Ricgus3

Trash Panda said:


> FYI, you can get some really nice, thick JXL Brass style weight out of the trombones. Just apply a bit of tape style saturation that emphasizes the low end. I really like Spectre for this.


Thank you! Will try this


----------



## Mikro93

Fibigero said:


> lol was there some kind of rule established by him not to mention the library? I haven't followed every post in here.


Yes, it has been scientifically proven that every time we ask when IS will be released, it gets delayed by 1 month. I don't think Aaron was the one who came up with it


----------



## ansthenia

Aaron would make a great obstetrician. Every time he does a baby scan to see how it's going and predict when it's due, he'd just be like "+1 month" and walk out.


----------



## jason3.14

I've still been working through reading this thread from page 1 - I just finished page 48, just getting past when IB v1.4 finally dropped in 2020. What an interesting novel it's been :D hope the wait for IW was just as entertaining


----------



## I like music

jason3.14 said:


> I've still been working through reading this thread from page 1 - I just finished page 48, just getting past when IB v1.4 finally dropped in 2020. What an interesting novel it's been :D hope the wait for IW was just as entertaining


Gets really good in chapter 1.6! 

Also, not to spoil it too much for you, but there's a twist where the village of idiots somehow contrive to permanently delay the "strings of infinity" 

Only a wizard can release those strings, but we don't know what we can do to appease him.


----------



## jason3.14

I like music said:


> Gets really good in chapter 1.6!
> 
> Also, not to spoil it too much for you, but there's a twist where the village of idiots somehow contrive to permanently delay the "strings of infinity"
> 
> Only a wizard can release those strings, but we don't know what we can do to appease him.


It's funny to know the future somewhat already, particularly in regards to anticipating 2020-2021 IS release - like ohhhh poor guys not knowing what's in store  But now I'll also be waiting for IS as well, just 2 years less than earlier adopters  

And now, back to page 49...


----------



## Loïc D

I post my entry to Bridgerton, done 100% with AV Infinite Woodwinds and God knows I love these libraries.

It’s a triple post of the vid, yes I know, I feel like an ice skater succeeding his first triple Lutz.

You know what? I feel so confident that I’ll ask Aaron for the release date of Infinite S…. (Earth opens under my feet, end of story)


----------



## Lord Daknight

Can we just make the Aaron cult already


----------



## decredis

Lord Daknight said:


> Can we just make the Aaron cult already


*makes the sign of infinity, reverently*


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## ansthenia

Lord Daknight said:


> Can we just make the Aaron cult already


Way ahead of you, I sacrificed my hamster like 5 days ago.


----------



## PerryD

...and the multitudes did gather to see if a puff of blue smoke or white smoke would emerge from the ancient tube mic preamp, indicating a release or release date. Alas, only a 60 cycle hum did grace the ears of the followers. Now return to your homes and wait in patience.


----------



## Loïc D

If the smoke is white, we’ve got a new Pope. But no Infinite Strings…


----------



## Jorf88

Lord Daknight said:


> Can we just make the Aaron cult already


Have you seen the *three hundred and fourty-two *page thread those lunatics have amassed!? Oh wait...


----------



## Lord Daknight

Jorf88 said:


> Have you seen the *three hundred and fourty-two *page thread those lunatics have amassed!? Oh wait...


numbers are not what pleases the Infinite One! What are numbers in the face of infinity? We must stay pure and not indulge in the degeneracy that is traditional samples if we ever want to see that promised land that is Infinite Strings!


----------



## Jamus

Loïc D said:


> I post my entry to Bridgerton, done 100% with AV Infinite Woodwinds and God knows I love these libraries.
> 
> It’s a triple post of the vid, yes I know, I feel like an ice skater succeeding his first triple Lutz.
> 
> You know what? I feel so confident that I’ll ask Aaron for the release date of Infinite S…. (Earth opens under my feet, end of story)



Woh! Brilliant work!


----------



## blender505

I totally dreamt last night that Infinite Strings released but woke up before I could try it.


----------



## DANIELE

blender505 said:


> I totally dreamt last night that Infinite Strings released but woke up before I could try it.


If in the next dream you will be able to try them let us know some insights, it could be useful before purchasing IS.

If you are able to do even some review it would be very useful too. How is the GUI?

Did you dream about IW and IB updates too?

Thank you.


----------



## I like music

Some kind of horror story


----------



## Tanarri

@aaronventure
Is there a way to make the IRs shorter? The Mozarteum sound is amazing, but the tail is so long. I've tried tweaking IR er/tail sizes and the reverb envelope in Kontakt but for some reason, the sound doesn't change. (Sry, I'm a Kontakt noob.)


----------



## Jerner

Tanarri said:


> @aaronventure
> Is there a way to make the IRs shorter? The Mozarteum sound is amazing, but the tail is so long. I've tried tweaking IR er/tail sizes and the reverb envelope in Kontakt but for some reason, the sound doesn't change. (Sry, I'm a Kontakt noob.)


Disable the ambience mics and use only the close and main. Or switch to Bersa. I prefer the smaller stage, makes for easier blending with other things too.


----------



## Tanarri

Jerner said:


> Disable the ambience mics and use only the close and main. Or switch to Bersa. I prefer the smaller stage, makes for easier blending with other things too.


Thx. But I want to use ambience mics and I want to use Mozarteum.


----------



## Jerner

You could send Main and Amb to a separate channel and have a gentle gate on it controlled by the Close signal. Probably not very flexible but doable.
Edit: Well, only the ambience mics can be separate channels. Still possible but won't be as effective. Try just using one channel and gating the entire thing.


----------



## Sean J

*UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


----------



## Mike Stone

It would definitely be nice to have another couple of IRs. One between the Studio and Bersa, and one between Bersa and Morzarteum - in terms of reverb tail length and room size.


----------



## mussnig

Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


Link or didn't happen!


----------



## gedlig

Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


I knew this wasn't real... But still had to check just in case. So screw you


----------



## mussnig

gedlig said:


> I knew this wasn't real... But still had to check just in case. So screw you


Same here - but there is still a small possibility that it is an unlisted video. Like that "leaked" pianobook artists video ...


----------



## I like music

Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


Well played. 
Bastard.


----------



## Denkii

Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


You have a death wish


----------



## Sean J

I like music said:


> Well played.
> Bastard.


I’m glad we’re still on the same page. 😊


----------



## I like music

@aaronventure In light of this latest fake news, can you please clarify that the strings have in fact not been released yet, and are actually due in September?


----------



## Sean J

Apparently I can’t select the laughing reaction on the mobile site… but I want everyone to know the grin on my face is rather large.

And I knew it would look fake… but I also knew none of you sorry saps (myself included) would be the type not to have double checked.

Now Aaron, it’s time for you to restore balance to the force… A PM with a release date or beta download link will suffice.


----------



## I like music

Sean J said:


> Apparently I can’t select the laughing reaction on the mobile site… but I want everyone to know the grin on my face is rather large.
> 
> And I knew it would look fake… but I also knew none of you sorry saps (myself included) would be the type not to have double checked.
> 
> Now Aaron, it’s time for you to restore balance to the force… A PM with a release date or beta download link will suffice.


Oh it fooled me good and proper! Well, a part of me knew it had to be fake, but there's a part of me that wanted to believe...
In fact, even now, with confirmation that it was fake, I'm somehow checking his website just in case...


----------



## ansthenia

Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


I don't get the joke because the video isn't even working for me.


----------



## Trash Panda

Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


----------



## Lord Daknight

mussnig said:


> Same here - but there is still a small possibility that it is an unlisted video. Like that "leaked" pianobook artists video ...


aaronventure.com/secret/wip/private/infinitestrings
Guys the library is listed here secretly! You can just download it for free and it sends you a congratulations message


----------



## monochrome

recently got dearvr pro for like $30 and i'm not sure whether or not I prefer it to the standard IRs thoughts?

Mozarteum only:

View attachment flute1 dearvr mozarteum.mp3


Studio + Dearvr pro + samplicity Chicago Hall

View attachment flute1 dearvr chicago hall.mp3


anyone else use dearvr and do anything specific when you use it?


----------



## Markrs

monochrome said:


> recently got dearvr pro for like $30 and i'm not sure whether or not I prefer it to the standard IRs thoughts?
> 
> Mozarteum only:
> 
> View attachment flute1 dearvr mozarteum.mp3
> 
> 
> Studio + Dearvr pro + samplicity Chicago Hall
> 
> View attachment flute1 dearvr chicago hall.mp3
> 
> 
> anyone else use dearvr and do anything specific when you use it?


The dearVR pro version seems to have a stronger reverb and longer tail to me, which I do prefer, bit whether it is better depends on what you were going for. Both sound very nice.


----------



## monochrome

Markrs said:


> The dearVR pro version seems to have a stronger reverb and longer tail to me, which I do prefer, bit whether it is better depends on what you were going for. Both sound very nice.


yeah I kinda like the clarity of the mozarteum but I also like the space of dearvr, it sucks that infinite only has 3 options but hopefully from the survey he sent out we'll be getting some more soon


----------



## Ricgus3

monochrome said:


> recently got dearvr pro for like $30 and i'm not sure whether or not I prefer it to the standard IRs thoughts?
> 
> Mozarteum only:
> 
> View attachment flute1 dearvr mozarteum.mp3
> 
> 
> Studio + Dearvr pro + samplicity Chicago Hall
> 
> View attachment flute1 dearvr chicago hall.mp3
> 
> 
> anyone else use dearvr and do anything specific when you use it?


I really like the mozarteum. Which flute is this?


----------



## Bollen

Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


----------



## I like music

monochrome said:


> recently got dearvr pro for like $30 and i'm not sure whether or not I prefer it to the standard IRs thoughts?
> 
> Mozarteum only:
> 
> View attachment flute1 dearvr mozarteum.mp3
> 
> 
> Studio + Dearvr pro + samplicity Chicago Hall
> 
> View attachment flute1 dearvr chicago hall.mp3
> 
> 
> anyone else use dearvr and do anything specific when you use it?


Both sound great. Could use them in appropriate contexts and sound good.


----------



## monochrome

Ricgus3 said:


> I really like the mozarteum. Which flute is this?


it's just IW flute 1!


----------



## PerryD

I'm going to send Conan to take care of the fake news.  Infinite WW's & Brass. Real local thunderstorm.


----------



## Jamus

PerryD said:


> I'm going to send Conan to take care of the fake news.  Infinite WW's & Brass. Real local thunderstorm.


Very Conan music. I'm jealous of your local ambience. My local ambience would be burnouts and distant traffic. Probably wouldn't go over well in a Conan score 🤔


----------



## PerryD

Jamus said:


> Very Conan music. I'm jealous of your local ambience. My local ambience would be burnouts and distant traffic. Probably wouldn't go over well in a Conan score 🤔


We get that as well. Someone also has a very impressive car stereo next door that they love sharing with the neighborhood.  I did a remix with live trumpet in the last verse.


----------



## Denkii

PerryD said:


> I'm going to send Conan to take care of the fake news.  Infinite WW's & Brass. Real local thunderstorm.


Instant jRPG city theme vibes. I love this!


----------



## Jamus

Denkii said:


> Instant jRPG city theme vibes. I love this!


When i first heard the Conan soundtrack i was like dude this could easily be the runescape from way back soundtrack haha


----------



## Leandro Gardini

I must say, Infinite Series are top-notch instruments unlike anything on the market. Aaron's technology is way beyond the most well-known sample library companies out there, and it's surprising that in 2022 lots of sample developers still sampling articulations and dynamics that take hundreds of Giga bites on your hard drive.
The only technology that can rival Infinite Series is Sample Modeling. However, the ladder has a learning curve that annoys some composers. Infinite, on the other hand, comes with built-in IRs that are the best, in my opinion, and easy to place in the mix.
During the last few days, I've tried hard to replicate the Infinite IRs (mic position and placement) on other anechoic instruments. I've used several tools in many different combinations. Even though I got a decent result, I couldn't come close to the natural sound of Infinite Series.
It seems there's an intrinsic symbiosis between the instrument sound and the IR that cannot be made by simply applying convolution reverb to a dry instrument like we usually do. The partials respond to the IR accordingly.


----------



## Tanarri

Jerner said:


> You could send Main and Amb to a separate channel and have a gentle gate on it controlled by the Close signal. Probably not very flexible but doable.
> Edit: Well, only the ambience mics can be separate channels. Still possible but won't be as effective. Try just using one channel and gating the entire thing.


I tried this. The smoothest gates I could find but the result just isn't satisfying. :/



Sean J said:


> *UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!!!*


My heart skipped a beat man. Not cool. 



Mike Stone said:


> It would definitely be nice to have another couple of IRs. One between the Studio and Bersa, and one between Bersa and Morzarteum - in terms of reverb tail length and room size.


The option to control the tail length would be great. Mozarteum + IB sound incredible.


----------



## Trash Panda

For those who want the timbre of Mozarteum with the IR length of Bersa, or the timbre of Bersa with the IR length of the Studio, you can always go under the hood and adjust the convolution settings (IR Size or the Volume Envelope) on the different IRs involved.

Ambient mic is under Bus 1 Insert FX. Close/Instrument and Tree/Main are under Send Effects.

Edit: Mixed mics are under Insert FX.


----------



## shawnsingh

Leandro Gardini said:


> It seems there's an intrinsic symbiosis between the instrument sound and the IR that cannot be made by simply applying convolution reverb to a dry instrument like we usually do. The partials respond to the IR accordingly.



I think Wallander's experiences shed light on this - 





The future of virtual instruments


Hi, vi-control members and fellow composers! This is my first post here, so I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Dmitry, and I'm a former software engineer and now an aspiring composer. For the last couple of years, among other things, I've been thinking about the future of virtual...




vi-control.net




and





The future of virtual instruments


@Wallander I have a question. First of all, I want to thank you again for your input in this thread and you enlightening me about IR's. Since then, there has been so much I've noticed when focusing on the way rooms respond to different instruments. In this recording for instance, it seems...




vi-control.net





these two posts seem to be a good summary of the opinion he was expressing. I am a bit more optimistic than him about what might be possible with IRs, ambisonics, and future of sampling and scripting... but I also immediately know exactly the harsh-harmonics sound of dry + convolution that he's referring to, and that sounds a lot like what you're expressing here too =)


----------



## zigzag

shawnsingh said:


> I think Wallander's experiences shed light on this -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The future of virtual instruments
> 
> 
> Hi, vi-control members and fellow composers! This is my first post here, so I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Dmitry, and I'm a former software engineer and now an aspiring composer. For the last couple of years, among other things, I've been thinking about the future of virtual...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The future of virtual instruments
> 
> 
> @Wallander I have a question. First of all, I want to thank you again for your input in this thread and you enlightening me about IR's. Since then, there has been so much I've noticed when focusing on the way rooms respond to different instruments. In this recording for instance, it seems...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these two posts seem to be a good summary of the opinion he was expressing. I am a bit more optimistic than him about what might be possible with IRs, ambisonics, and future of sampling and scripting... but I also immediately know exactly the harsh-harmonics sound of dry + convolution that he's referring to, and that sounds a lot like what you're expressing here too =)


Interesting. Do you think it would be useful to record dry instrument from multiple angles, interpolate between them to artificially create even more angles and feed all of them into convolution reverb with multiple IRs for different directions?


----------



## Tanarri

Trash Panda said:


> For those who want the timbre of Mozarteum with the IR length of Bersa, or the timbre of Bersa with the IR length of the Studio, you can always go under the hood and adjust the convolution settings (IR Size or the Volume Envelope) on the different IRs involved.
> 
> Ambient mic is under Bus 1 Insert FX. Close/Instrument and Tree/Main are under Send Effects.
> 
> Edit: Mixed mics are under Insert FX.





Tanarri said:


> I've tried tweaking IR er/tail sizes and the reverb envelope in Kontakt but for some reason, the sound doesn't change.


----------



## Trash Panda

@Tanarri are you using three separate IRs or the mixed mic IR?

When you make the adjustments are you making them against all of the active IRs in the areas I mentioned? 

I hear a definite change when shortening the tail via IR size or Volume Envelope. Mozarteum retains its ERs and turning the IR size down to 50% under the Tail tab gives it an almost Studio-length tail.


----------



## Leandro Gardini

shawnsingh said:


> I think Wallander's experiences shed light on this -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The future of virtual instruments
> 
> 
> Hi, vi-control members and fellow composers! This is my first post here, so I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Dmitry, and I'm a former software engineer and now an aspiring composer. For the last couple of years, among other things, I've been thinking about the future of virtual...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The future of virtual instruments
> 
> 
> @Wallander I have a question. First of all, I want to thank you again for your input in this thread and you enlightening me about IR's. Since then, there has been so much I've noticed when focusing on the way rooms respond to different instruments. In this recording for instance, it seems...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these two posts seem to be a good summary of the opinion he was expressing. I am a bit more optimistic than him about what might be possible with IRs, ambisonics, and future of sampling and scripting... but I also immediately know exactly the harsh-harmonics sound of dry + convolution that he's referring to, and that sounds a lot like what you're expressing here too =)


It's good stuff. Thanks for bringing it here.
I totally agree with his input, except the "wet sample came to stay."
In a clever and arcane way, Aaron has been able to do the trick. Just compare the three mic positions in the studio IR. Their difference is brutal, and the partials seem to "dance" in the MAIN and AMB mics while on the CLOSE they're static. I don't think there is anything on the market that can simulate it as naturally as Infinite Series. Maybe SPAT is one alternative, but its incredibly high price makes most composers run away from it.

It has always been a hassle to match anechoic instruments with dry ones. I've heard some very good results of B2 and Todd-AO applied on Sample Modeling brass, for example. However, it sounds good when it stands on its own only. When compared side by side to a wet sample, the magic seems to vanish.


----------



## Tanarri

Trash Panda said:


> @Tanarri are you using three separate IRs or the mixed mic IR?
> 
> When you make the adjustments are you making them against all of the active IRs in the areas I mentioned?
> 
> I hear a definite change when shortening the tail via IR size or Volume Envelope. Mozarteum retains its ERs and turning the IR size down to 50% under the Tail tab gives it an almost Studio-length tail.


I don't know what I was doing, but now I just tweaked the IR lengths, and it works perfectly. For both mixed and normal mics.

Thank you for helping out!


----------



## Ricgus3

Hi all! I have been building some mulites but the more I get into this I notice that the trombones are not really thick/warm, but has more a metallic rasp to them in context of an ensemble. Anyone have been experimenting with getting the thicker/fuller?


----------



## shawnsingh

zigzag said:


> Interesting. Do you think it would be useful to record dry instrument from multiple angles, interpolate between them to artificially create even more angles and feed all of them into convolution reverb with multiple IRs for different directions?


Theoretically this idea should work - capturing a detailed representation of the 3d sound field produced by an instrument, and having matched IRs to know how all of that reaches the microphones. In some ways this is what MIR does already, and they have directivity profiles to approximate how their own stereo sampled virtual instruments would propagate sound in 3d. 

In practice I have no idea if deeper sampling of the 3d sound field and matched sampling of IRs would be able to do much better than MIR. At that point, maybe the differences are probably part of the "art" instead of the "science".

And then comes along something like infinite, where the bespoke IRs sound pretty good.

So personally I think a promising future is in libraries like infinite which do both together - sampling instruments and IRs. This gives developers a chance to innovate on how to get the most convincing acoustic placements, since they can plan how to sample both instruments and IRs and match them, while still getting all the very compelling advantages of dry samples.


----------



## El Buhdai

Leandro Gardini said:


> Aaron's technology is way beyond the most well-known sample library companies out there, and it's surprising that in 2022 lots of sample developers still sampling articulations and dynamics that take hundreds of Giga bites on your hard drive.


I truly believe that if we didn't have so many purists, sample library devs would be investing heavily in "next-gen" sample libraries that use intelligent sample or even AI modelling to create instruments that are smaller, lighter, and more expressive. Where else can they even go at this point? Every major established developer has relegated themselves to making "orchestral textures" and "hybrid synth" libraries now lol.

As it stands now, the focus remains on standard recorded libraries with multiple microphone positions and the room tone of famous concert halls. After using Infinite and trying to push the limits of its tone and capabilities for the last 3 or 4 years, I'm just not so interested in the old approach anymore. The future of this tech is just far too promising.

Anyone wanna make a custom player that can make instruments by feeding thousands of recorded passages to a machine learning algorithm? I'd imagine you could at least get similar results to what we hear from Performance Samples. Just picture something like OpenAI's DALL E 2 or Google's Imagen but for creating dynamic, responsive, and expressive instruments.


----------



## Ricgus3

El Buhdai said:


> I truly believe that if we didn't have so many purists, sample library devs would be investing heavily in "next-gen" sample libraries that use intelligent sample or even AI modelling to create instruments that are smaller, lighter, and more expressive. Where else can they even go at this point? Every major established developer has relegated themselves to making "orchestral textures" and "hybrid synth" libraries now lol.
> 
> As it stands now, the focus remains on standard recorded libraries with multiple microphone positions and the room tone of famous concert halls. After using Infinite and trying to push the limits of its tone and capabilities for the last 3 or 4 years, I'm just not so interested in the old approach anymore. The future of this tech is just far too promising.
> 
> Anyone wanna make a custom player that can make instruments by feeding thousands of recorded passages to a machine learning algorithm? I'd imagine you could at least get similar results to what we hear from Performance Samples. Just picture something like OpenAI's DALL E 2 or Google's Imagen but for creating dynamic, responsive, and expressive instruments.


Can you explain what a purist is? I see it tossed around but now I am too afraid to ask


----------



## Trash Panda

Ricgus3 said:


> Can you explain what a purist is? I see it tossed around but now I am too afraid to ask


Cork sniffers who ascribe more value in a library to THE ROOM than all other considerations.


----------



## Ricgus3

Trash Panda said:


> Cork sniffers who ascribe more value in a library to THE ROOM than all other considerations.


Thank you! Now I understand, all too well….


----------



## Ricgus3

I have started tweaking the EQ inside kontakt for the Brass abit. I noticed the changes I make in kontakt only "applies" when playing the second note of a line. The first note I play seem to be not affected by the EQ i am manipulating in group effects. Anyone know why the EQ only kicks in on the second note and forward?


----------



## Bollen

Leandro Gardini said:


> The only technology that can rival Infinite Series is Sample Modeling. However, the ladder has a learning curve that annoys some composers. Infinite, on the other hand, comes with built-in IRs that are the best, in my opinion, and easy to place in the mix.
> During the last few days, I've tried hard to replicate the Infinite IRs (mic position and placement) on other anechoic instruments. I've used several tools in many different combinations. Even though I got a decent result, I couldn't come close to the natural sound of Infinite Series.


Do you have the latest versions of SM? I have all version 3s and using their new IR sits perfectly with at least the old VSL instruments...


----------



## shawnsingh

Ricgus3 said:


> Hi all! I have been building some mulites but the more I get into this I notice that the trombones are not really thick/warm, but has more a metallic rasp to them in context of an ensemble. Anyone have been experimenting with getting the thicker/fuller?


(1) try to get more detuning across individual instruments, either manually with very small amounts of pitch bend or through the humanize/accuracy

(2) try performing each instrument individually, the differences in timing and CC modulations can make a huge difference

(3) try using a lower range of velocity and CC dynamics, in case you find yourself regularly above CC value 110

Cheers!


----------



## Trash Panda

Ricgus3 said:


> Hi all! I have been building some mulites but the more I get into this I notice that the trombones are not really thick/warm, but has more a metallic rasp to them in context of an ensemble. Anyone have been experimenting with getting the thicker/fuller?


Use a high shelf EQ to cut the high end and/or do some multi-band saturation on the lows/low-mids. Spectre is great for this.


----------



## Leandro Gardini

Bollen said:


> Do you have the latest versions of SM? I have all version 3s and using their new IR sits perfectly with at least the old VSL instruments...


Yes, I'm using V3. From my experience, turning off all built-in ambiance on SM and using my own rendered the best results.


----------



## El Buhdai

Trash Panda said:


> Cork sniffers who ascribe more value in a library to THE ROOM than all other considerations.


I've had someone tell me that I'd never get gigs if I used certain libraries, or even if I used Infinite's trills instead of traditionally sampled trills. They went on to further say that one day "if I'm actually serious" about going anywhere with music, I'll eventually agree with them. That's purist thinking. Sample library content must be as close to their personal standard of realism as possible (room tone, mic positions, traditional/raw sampling methods, etc).


----------



## Denkii

El Buhdai said:


> I've had someone tell me that I'd never get gigs if I used certain libraries, or even if I used Infinite's trills instead of traditionally sampled trills. They went on to further say that one day "if I'm actually serious" about going anywhere with music, I'll eventually agree with them.


Aww that's cute. The big man/woman ist unsure and it scares them :>


----------



## sundrowned

@Ricgus3 I managed to get my hands on EWI USB after seeing what you were doing with your EWI controller. 

Annoyingly though with the USB version you can only change the EWI settings in the Aria player. It doesn't seem to store them permanently anywhere. Which seems a bit useless. You'd think the whole point of a usb wind controller would be to control other software. But it seems like it's not really set up for that. 

I think the 5000 is probably the only way to go with the EWI line.


----------



## Ricgus3

sundrowned said:


> @Ricgus3 I managed to get my hands on EWI USB after seeing what you were doing with your EWI controller.
> 
> Annoyingly though with the USB version you can only change the EWI settings in the Aria player. It doesn't seem to store them permanently anywhere. Which seems a bit useless. You'd think the whole point of a usb wind controller would be to control other software. But it seems like it's not really set up for that.
> 
> I think the 5000 is probably the only way to go with the EWI line.


Hmm. I will look into it. I don’t own the usb version but I used the akai 5000 with the usb cable. It should send the same CCs to a pc/Mac


----------



## Ricgus3

sundrowned said:


> @Ricgus3 I managed to get my hands on EWI USB after seeing what you were doing with your EWI controller.
> 
> Annoyingly though with the USB version you can only change the EWI settings in the Aria player. It doesn't seem to store them permanently anywhere. Which seems a bit useless. You'd think the whole point of a usb wind controller would be to control other software. But it seems like it's not really set up for that.
> 
> I think the 5000 is probably the only way to go with the EWI line.


Here at patchman they say you can use it to control other instrument such as “SWAM”.






Akai EWI USB EWIUSB MIDI Wind Controller at Patchman Music


Akai EWI EWI4000S EWI4000 Electronic Wind Controller at PATCHMAN MUSIC. We specialize in wind controllers! We sell, support, and repair Akai Wind Controllers and Accessories. We also specialize in wind controller and breath controller soundbanks.



www.patchmanmusic.com





Have you see it has been properly setup in your daw? Also make sure Aria player is not active when using your daw.


----------



## Saxer

sundrowned said:


> @Ricgus3 I managed to get my hands on EWI USB after seeing what you were doing with your EWI controller.
> 
> Annoyingly though with the USB version you can only change the EWI settings in the Aria player. It doesn't seem to store them permanently anywhere. Which seems a bit useless. You'd think the whole point of a usb wind controller would be to control other software. But it seems like it's not really set up for that.
> 
> I think the 5000 is probably the only way to go with the EWI line.


It's rather easy to change incoming CC data in DAWs. I have MIDI plugins in a lot of my channels so I can play them via keyboard+modwheel and wind controller. If you work with templates it has to be done only once.


----------



## sundrowned

Ricgus3 said:


> Here at patchman they say you can use it to control other instrument such as “SWAM”.





Ricgus3 said:


> Have you see it has been properly setup in your daw? Also make sure Aria player is not active when using your daw.


It's not the DAW setup that's the problem. I have it setup and it works in that I can I can play notes etc. But I can't change the controller settings. For example the factory key sensitivity is too high. It's almost impossible not to end up with lots of grace notes while playing. In the manual it says to reduce it, but the only way to access the settings is in the Aria player. There's not separate settings tool like with the 5000. (i tried using 5000 settings tool but it doesn't recognise it)


----------



## sundrowned

Saxer said:


> It's rather easy to change incoming CC data in DAWs. I have MIDI plugins in a lot of my channels so I can play them via keyboard+modwheel and wind controller. If you work with templates it has to be done only once.


I might be able to do something like that but the problem is it's not just CC data it's the settings of the controller like key and breath sensitivity. The factory key sensitivity for example is extremely high and results in far too many grace notes while playing. In the manual it says to reduce it, but the only way to do it seems to be in the Aria player. 

I suppose I could try and filter out ghost notes but then it would be a problem if I do want a ghost note.


----------



## sundrowned

Right seems like I'm getting somewhere. The Aria software needs an update that isn't on the Akai support site (their download link is wrong) it's on the aria engine website. The software still doesn't work particularly well, the graphics don't show up properly on W10 here so you have to guess a bit where the controls are, but I've found out how to change the settings I need. 

Much happier now. It's a lot of fun.


----------



## Ricgus3

sundrowned said:


> Right seems like I'm getting somewhere. The Aria software needs an update that isn't on the Akai support site (their download link is wrong) it's on the aria engine website. The software still doesn't work particularly well, the graphics don't show up properly on W10 here so you have to guess a bit where the controls are, but I've found out how to change the settings I need.
> 
> Much happier now. It's a lot of fun.


It is ton or fun  glad ut seems to work for you now!


----------



## dmw

sundrowned said:


> It's not the DAW setup that's the problem. I have it setup and it works in that I can I can play notes etc. But I can't change the controller settings. For example the factory key sensitivity is too high. It's almost impossible not to end up with lots of grace notes while playing. In the manual it says to reduce it, but the only way to access the settings is in the Aria player. There's not separate settings tool like with the 5000. (i tried using 5000 settings tool but it doesn't recognise it)


It's pretty old but you could try Akai EWI-USB Control by Cognitone
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/akai-ewi-usb-control-by-cognitone
https://www.cognitone.com/downloads/index.stml?p=5


----------



## monochrome

lil part of a project with IW :D

View attachment exhibition.mp3


----------



## Jamus

monochrome said:


> lil part of a project with IW :D
> 
> View attachment exhibition.mp3


Very lively! Nicely done 👍


----------



## sundrowned

dmw said:


> It's pretty old but you could try Akai EWI-USB Control by Cognitone
> https://www.kvraudio.com/product/akai-ewi-usb-control-by-cognitone
> https://www.cognitone.com/downloads/index.stml?p=5


This looks great and what I need, thanks.


----------



## Steve_Karl

morganwable said:


> Speaking of CPU load...
> 
> Has anybody had any success running many instances of an Infinite instrument at once through one instance of Kontakt, rather than one per instrument? Currently I have like 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt running and it's just barely getting to the point where I'd have to freeze tracks in order to add more than a few additional sections. I'm worried that with IS, or even with Sample Modeling strings, my template in its current form will become unplayable, at least in real time.
> 
> I'm using Reaper, so theoretically, I could route all the midi through a particular subset of tracks, but I don't know how - and more importantly, I don't know how much it would realistically reduce my CPU load to do so. So I'm not sure if it's worth it.
> 
> Once I get all three Infinite libraries, I'm probably going to set up my template in that way, plus some ReaControlMIDI instances in order to control mics or at least spaces for whole sections at once. It's going to take a lot of planning.
> 
> Another question: can you change the _placement_ of an instrument with a CC like you can for most of the other settings? I want to be able to dynamically swap out which instruments are where - particularly the corner and soloist placements. If my CPU can handle it, I guess I could just make extra tracks instead, though. So far, I have every IB instrument playing at once and haven't had any crackling... but my CPU is at like 80-95% according to Task Manager. Getting nervous.


In case no one has answered you - that's the only way I do it with any library ... and yes ... for me it's way more efficient to fully load one instance of Kontakt with 16 instruments before opening an other instance of Kontakt. 
I see the Infinite WW and Brass as being much more resource friendly than other libs.
So,
Generally, for a large project I can use 5 instances of Kontakt almost fully loaded and still run my PC at low latency. 
I also have all instruments going to their own audio outs ST-1 through ST-16.


----------



## Denkii

Paging @Soundbed to ask if you ever got to record some videos about infinite like you said you would a while ago?

I know there was a very small comparison but iirc you wanted to go a bit more in depth?

What's your take on these?


----------



## Soundbed

Denkii said:


> Paging @Soundbed to ask if you ever got to record some videos about infinite like you said you would a while ago?
> 
> I know there was a very small comparison but iirc you wanted to go a bit more in depth?
> 
> What's your take on these?


Yes I've recorded, or tried to record, hours and hours of noodling with Infinite WW and Brass.

I've also got a short video started on a Mac mini M1 with 8GB RAM and interestingly it was the CPU (not the RAM) that was the bottleneck to success.

I've gotten so busy with everything that isn't my YouTube Channel, it's the editing that I haven't finished. A good (short) video is both good content and good editing, and I have not taken the time to edit anything. :/


----------



## Denkii

Soundbed said:


> Yes I've recorded, or tried to record, hours and hours of noodling with Infinite WW and Brass.
> 
> I've also got a short video started on a Mac mini M1 with 8GB RAM and interestingly it was the CPU (not the RAM) that was the bottleneck to success.
> 
> I've gotten so busy with everything that isn't my YouTube Channel, it's the editing that I haven't finished. A good (short) video is both good content and good editing, and I have not taken the time to edit anything. :/


I hope you'll still be able to find the time and edit something together at some point.
Always enjoy how you show applicable examples in a very down to earth manner.

Of course I also hope it's all positive stress that hinders you and that you'll find the time to take care of yourself first and foremost!


----------



## yusir

Steve_Karl said:


> In case no one has answered you - that's the only way I do it with any library ... and yes ... for me it's way more efficient to fully load one instance of Kontakt with 16 instruments before opening an other instance of Kontakt.
> I see the Infinite WW and Brass as being much more resource friendly than other libs.
> So,
> Generally, for a large project I can use 5 instances of Kontakt almost fully loaded and still run my PC at low latency.
> I also have all instruments going to their own audio outs ST-1 through ST-16.


I did this on my m1max and asked Aaron about this (no mixed mic). One instance of Kontakt just peak my single core and audio crack. Most orchestral libraries are not like serum that intelligently spread the cpu. So I would recommend just to try out both ways and see how your computer handles. Hope this helps


----------



## LatinXCombo

Juulu said:


> Something in progress. IB sounds really good here, but I'm still trying to figure out how to space the instruments.
> 
> View attachment Astromadeus's March.mp3


Nice. Oddly, the intro reminded me of the theme linked below.

Please, do not ask why I know this movie well enough that the soundtrack came to mind at all.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Hello everyone ! The work is in progress (a lot of elements are still missing) but I wanted to share with you my recreation of the soundtrack of "The Mandalorian". All brass are infinite


----------



## PerryD

I was just looking for an excuse to play my $$ Black Swamp castanets... Infinite brass.


----------



## Denkii

LatinXCombo said:


> Nice. Oddly, the intro reminded me of the theme linked below.
> 
> Please, do not ask why I know this movie well enough that the soundtrack came to mind at all.



Ok but....why do you know that movie well enough that the soundtrack came to mind at all?


----------



## LatinXCombo

Denkii said:


> Ok but....why do you know that movie well enough that the soundtrack came to mind at all?


Look, we didn't have cable. We had a VCR.


----------



## Denkii

LatinXCombo said:


> Look, we didn't have cable. We had a VCR.


Same
Are you seriously telling me not everyone rewatched the first episode of Kimba the white lion because that's all they had?
I don't believe it, you're making this up 

Give me the real reason.


----------



## LatinXCombo

Denkii said:


> Same
> Are you seriously telling me not everyone rewatched the first episode of Kimba the white lion because that's all they had?
> I don't believe it, you're making this up
> 
> Give me the real reason.


Okay tough guy, you name another movie that brought together Charo, Robert Wager, Sylvia Kristel, George Kennedy, Ed Begley, Jr., Eddie Albert, Martha Raye (the scene with her in the Concorde lavatory was unforgettable,) David Warner, and Jimmie Walker (who clearly spent the entire time on set high.)

And is there another movie that dared to feature a George Kennedy love scene?

[ETA: I'm just going to ban myself now.]


----------



## Denkii

LatinXCombo said:


> Okay tough guy, you name another movie that brought together Charo, Robert Wager, Sylvia Kristel, George Kennedy, Ed Begley, Jr., Eddie Albert, Martha Raye (the scene with her in the Concorde lavatory was unforgettable,) David Warner, and Jimmie Walker (who clearly spent the entire time on set high.)
> 
> And is there another movie that dared to feature a George Kennedy love scene?
> 
> [ETA: I'm just going to ban myself now.]


The dedication, the passion portrayed here... remarkable.
I feel it's safe to say this was the first post in this thread that gave a -1 month for the strings release.
Do not falter in your conviction and your love for this movie. We stand by your side. You are a true hero.

My childhood suddenly seems very sad. I don't remember anything from Kimba the white lion.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I came here to ask about whether anyone was using a TEController or Leap Motion controller, or in combination (the fastest workflow?)... but the gravity in this Concorde side story is compelling. This wasn't some flippant passing reference, this was a crack through which the light of Being pours!


----------



## Denkii

TEC b&b2 user here.
Needed some days getting used to it when I first got it a year ago.
Love it now. For almost everything. Even synths.
Great device.


----------



## gedlig

Hǒu dareſ disturb hider forum withouÞ informatfōre-dēde don infinitæ strings?


----------



## DANIELE

Denkii said:


> TEC b&b2 user here.
> Needed some days getting used to it when I first got it a year ago.
> Love it now. For almost everything. Even synths.
> Great device.


Quote this. Very useful device, I get used to it in a few days and it is a great device to achieve very natural and realistic results.


----------



## Groctave

I use my old TEC breath controller (pre-breath and bite era) on Infinite Woodwinds. Wonderful!

And like @Denkii , I use it on non-wind instruments, especially strings.


----------



## Denkii

DANIELE said:


> Quote this. Very useful device, I get used to it in a few days and it is a great device to achieve very natural and realistic results.


^ Daniele also helped me out with the initial driver settings for the device and it made a huge difference in how responsive it is. I was pretty disappointed before because I couldn't get it to respond well enough to what I'm doing.
The settings make or break it pretty much and it's good that you can customize it so much to your liking.


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> ^ Daniele also helped me out with the initial driver settings for the device and it made a huge difference in how responsive it is. I was pretty disappointed before because I couldn't get it to respond well enough to what I'm doing.
> The settings make or break it pretty much and it's good that you can customize it so much to your liking.


This. I would be very curious to have a glimpse at your / Daniele’s settings. I sometimes still struggle with those (BBC2).


----------



## Lord Daknight

Ricgus3 said:


> Can you explain what a purist is? I see it tossed around but now I am too afraid to ask


Someone who shakes their fist at Performance Samples


----------



## Denkii

doctoremmet said:


> This. I would be very curious to have a glimpse at your / Daniele’s settings. I sometimes still struggle with those (BBC2).


You got a DM


----------



## doctoremmet

Denkii said:


> You got a DM


Awesome!! Many many thanks


----------



## Juulu

A small bit I mocked up of Battle of Yavin. The mix is kinda dry cause I was trying to get it to sound like the recorded version, but it still doesn't quite feel right. Can't remember if I posted this before so hopefully it's not a dupe.

View attachment Yavin Mockup Fleshed.mp3


----------



## shawnsingh

Curious, (1) is this bersa Hall? Which mics? (2) what do you feel isn't right about it? I'm excited to listen on better headphones later, but on my phone it sounds nice. I suspect it might work to use even more CC range, even in these loud bombastic parts, I think it's not uncommon for dynamics to dip fairly quiet.


----------



## Robert_G

Just out of plain morbid curiosity, has there ever been a teaser for the strings??


----------



## Juulu

shawnsingh said:


> Curious, (1) is this bersa Hall? Which mics? (2) what do you feel isn't right about it? I'm excited to listen on better headphones later, but on my phone it sounds nice. I suspect it might work to use even more CC range, even in these loud bombastic parts, I think it's not uncommon for dynamics to dip fairly quiet.


I think it's my orchestration (some of the notes feel wrong) as well as me committing the sin of comparing my work to a professional mixed/mastered song lol. Also, I believe I was using the studio IR with a bit of seventh heaven.


----------



## monochrome

Robert_G said:


> Just out of plain morbid curiosity, has there ever been a teaser for the strings??


I don't think so. I didn't know about these libraries when they were first released so idk whether or not he did a lot of teasers for brass and winds either.

I don't have any hope for a release any time soon or he would probably update the FAQ page on infinite strings but I'm really just hoping for the brass and winds update


----------



## Vlzmusic

Robert_G said:


> Just out of plain morbid curiosity, has there ever been a teaser for the strings??


If there was, you would feel the VI-C explosion from where you live.


----------



## ansthenia

Robert_G said:


> Just out of plain morbid curiosity, has there ever been a teaser for the strings??


What a disgustingly morbid question


----------



## Robert_G

Infinite Strings are truly a vaporware.


----------



## Trash Panda

Robert_G said:


> Infinite Strings are truly a vaporware.


Nah. You just have to pick up the Infinite Patience expansion pack before beginning your journey of waiting.


----------



## Heledir

Trash Panda said:


> Nah. You just have to pick up the *Infinite Patience* expansion pack before beginning your journey of waiting.


I've heard that it might be getting a 2.0 update sometime soonish.


----------



## DivingInSpace

Heledir said:


> I've heard that it might be getting a 2.0 update sometime soonish.


Amazing! I think We've all been waiting inpatiently for the 2.0 update for infinite patience.


----------



## DANIELE

DivingInSpace said:


> Amazing! I think We've all been waiting inpatiently for the 2.0 update for infinite patience.


Update 2.0 means you have to multiply the waiting time for 2. So you have to double the patience and do infinite X 2 = 2 times more infinite than before. So in conclusion double waiting!


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> Update 2.0 means you have to multiply the waiting time for 2. So you have to double the patience and do infinite X 2 = 2 times more infinite than before. So in conclusion double waiting!


Means if I don't update to infinite patience 2.0, I'll get infinite strings sooner than you lot 🤔


----------



## DANIELE

gedlig said:


> Means if I don't update to infinite patience 2.0, I'll get infinite strings sooner than you lot 🤔


No, it is a mandatory update, the old 1.0 version will not be supported anymore and will be deactivated once the incoming 2.0 will be out.


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> No, it is a mandatory update, the old 1.0 version will not be supported anymore and will be deactivated once the incoming 2.0 will be out.


You cannot deactivate something on an always offline machine 😏


----------



## DANIELE

gedlig said:


> You cannot deactivate something on an always offline machine 😏


AV will summon a zealot that will came to your home to personally deactivate your copy.


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> AV will summon a zealot that will came to your home to personally deactivate your copy.


As if he would know where I am roflmao xD skull emoji


----------



## DANIELE

gedlig said:


> As if he would know where I am roflmao xD skull emoji


He knows from the moment you installed Infinite Patience 1.0.


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> He knows from the moment you installed Infinite Patience 1.0.


Well there's the issue. I jumped on the IP train on 1.3


----------



## Tremendouz

Why am I subscribed to this thread, I don't even have any of the libraries.


----------



## Lord Daknight

Tremendouz said:


> Why am I subscribed to this thread, I don't even have any of the libraries.


BECAUSE YOU WILL...


----------



## gedlig

Tremendouz said:


> Why am I subscribed to this thread, I don't even have any of the libraries.


Because you're infinitely attracted to the idea of having them


----------



## LatinXCombo

Juulu said:


> A small bit I mocked up of Battle of Yavin. The mix is kinda dry cause I was trying to get it to sound like the recorded version, but it still doesn't quite feel right. Can't remember if I posted this before so hopefully it's not a dupe.
> 
> View attachment Yavin Mockup Fleshed.mp3


For some reason 0:10 - 0:15 don't sound as tight as the first ten seconds. The notes sounds slightly sloppy, like they were held a bit too long.


----------



## DANIELE

gedlig said:


> Well there's the issue. I jumped on the IP train on 1.3


We are talking about the Infinite Patience and the last version of that library is 1.0.

Anyway every version from the 1.0 of every infinite library has a secret localization plugin hidden inside. You cannot escape, I'm sorry!


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> Infinite Patience and the last version of that library is 1.0.


[Trump_saying_"wrong".gif] Oh the woes of not being graced with private version releases


----------



## Trash Panda

Can we please not invoke that abomination of a human in this thread?


----------



## yusir

monochrome said:


> I don't think so. I didn't know about these libraries when they were first released so idk whether or not he did a lot of teasers for brass and winds either.
> 
> I don't have any hope for a release any time soon or he would probably update the FAQ page on infinite strings but I'm really just hoping for the brass and winds update


I asked Aaron and he said there will be a major update of IW and IB coming. But not sure about the time


----------



## Ricgus3

yusir said:


> I asked Aaron and he said there will be a major update of IW and IB coming. But not sure about the time


The man that keeps giving


----------



## Juulu

LatinXCombo said:


> For some reason 0:10 - 0:15 don't sound as tight as the first ten seconds. The notes sounds slightly sloppy, like they were held a bit too long.


In the strings or the brass? Admittedly, it was really hard writing the brass parts haha. So it's not unlikely I held some notes too long when playing them in. If you mean the strings though I think it's due to the expressive legato in CSS. I was trying my best to be faithful to the recording.


----------



## Juulu

yusir said:


> I asked Aaron and he said there will be a major update of IW and IB coming. But not sure about the time


I asked him something about the update in March and he said (I'm paraphrasing here) "Depending on how things go in the next 5-6 months the updates may come soon". Hopefully, the updates come around somewhere late fall/early winter. I'm really looking forward to them. Maybe even more than IS.


----------



## DANIELE

At this point I think it is an out out, he is a one man army so he works on IS or he works on IB and IW updates. I'm also looking forward for IB and IW updates but since IB and IW are already very good and it is almost two years in the making of IS I hope he will finish the work on IS and then he will work on the updates.

Usually his policy is to give updates priority because they are about already existing products but at this point I think IS is a priority. It could be IS for the end of 2022 and IW and IB updates for the first semester of 2023.

I'm only guessing of course, and of course he decide what it is good for his company.


----------



## Tanarri

I'm stoked about the updates. I'm saving money for both IW and IS. The stuff I can do with IB moves me to tears. After all those years of _sample _libraries, this finally feels like an _instrument _library. I only experienced this with SampleModeling, but IB sounds so much better in the orchestral context.

I'm really really curious about the strings. If Aaron is be able to make them sound like a real section and not a synthy pad, with the playability of IB and IW, it will be amazing.

I think making IS the last is a good call, having all the experience with brass and winds will help tremendously, IMO.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Tanarri said:


> After all those years of _sample _libraries, this finally feels like an _instrument _library.


This quote hits differently


----------



## LatinXCombo

Juulu said:


> In the strings or the brass? Admittedly, it was really hard writing the brass parts haha. So it's not unlikely I held some notes too long when playing them in. If you mean the strings though I think it's due to the expressive legato in CSS. I was trying my best to be faithful to the recording.


Yeah, it was the strings. It sounds muddled to me. The brass sound correct (if a bit dry like you said.)

I tried going back to the original just to see if I was mis-hearing things, but it's a 9 minute track and I couldn't figure out where it was from...


----------



## ansthenia

I have a dream that someday a look-ahead mode will be added to these instruments


----------



## gedlig

Oh gods dammit, now the IS release is gonna be delayed by 3 more years (>_<)


----------



## monochrome

DANIELE said:


> At this point I think it is an out out, he is a one man army so he works on IS or he works on IB and IW updates. I'm also looking forward for IB and IW updates but since IB and IW are already very good and it is almost two years in the making of IS I hope he will finish the work on IS and then he will work on the updates.
> 
> Usually his policy is to give updates priority because they are about already existing products but at this point I think IS is a priority. It could be IS for the end of 2022 and IW and IB updates for the first semester of 2023.
> 
> I'm only guessing of course, and of course he decide what it is good for his company.


I have a feeling strings are nowhere near done and aren't coming anytime soon but hopefully I'm wrong. like I'm guessing summer 2023 and wind updates near the start of the year

telling myself this so I can be happy if it releases any sooner


----------



## Juulu

LatinXCombo said:


> Yeah, it was the strings. It sounds muddled to me. The brass sound correct (if a bit dry like you said.)
> 
> I tried going back to the original just to see if I was mis-hearing things, but it's a 9 minute track and I couldn't figure out where it was from...



Ya in the recording they have a lot more definition. Seems like the close mics are boosted a bit so you can really hear the rosin/harsh attacks. I didn't mix that track much besides some EQ to get rid of some of the muddiness.


----------



## mojamusic

monochrome said:


> short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries
> 
> View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


What string library are you using for this amazing sound?


----------



## monochrome

mojamusic said:


> What string library are you using for this amazing sound?


thanks! the strings at the beginning are 8dio anthology and the solo viola throughout is OT tableau solo strings (viola is the only good one in the package imo. cello is okay too)


----------



## mojamusic

Juulu said:


> Ya in the recording they have a lot more definition. Seems like the close mics are boosted a bit so you can really hear the rosin/harsh attacks. I didn't mix that track much besides some EQ to get rid of some of the muddiness.





Juulu said:


> A small bit I mocked up of Battle of Yavin. The mix is kinda dry cause I was trying to get it to sound like the recorded version, but it still doesn't quite feel right. Can't remember if I posted this before so hopefully it's not a dupe.
> 
> View attachment Yavin Mockup Fleshed.mp3


Awesome work, good sir! Do you have a Soundcloud profile or any music posted?


----------



## DANIELE

monochrome said:


> I have a feeling strings are nowhere near done and aren't coming anytime soon but hopefully I'm wrong. like I'm guessing summer 2023 and wind updates near the start of the year
> 
> telling myself this so I can be happy if it releases any sooner


It could be of course, we will know in a few months when the 2022 will switch to 2023.


----------



## gedlig

One could start a hobby of collecting the IS image with different dates

And of course some bastard would make an NFT out of that


----------



## I like music

monochrome said:


> short study with infinite that i'm working on. will forever be my favourite libraries
> 
> View attachment lonely visions reflecting on the water surface.mp3


How did I miss this?
Amazing work. I was transported somewhere. Not sure where, but somewhere far away and cool.
This was from July. I'm wondering if you added to it at all?


----------



## Bruhelius

DANIELE said:


> It could be of course, we will know in a few months when the 2022 will switch to 2023.


I hope that all of us can be around to see 2023…fingers crossed!


----------



## doctoremmet

Infinite Strings - Deo Volente edition


----------



## Ricgus3

monochrome said:


> I have a feeling strings are nowhere near done and aren't coming anytime soon but hopefully I'm wrong. like I'm guessing summer 2023 and wind updates near the start of the year
> 
> telling myself this so I can be happy if it releases any sooner


I am happy to receive updates to IB and IW before IS is released! Can’t wait to see what he is doing with them


----------



## I like music

Ricgus3 said:


> I am happy to receive updates to IB and IW before IS is released! Can’t wait to see what he is doing with them


Absolutely! Given how each iteration has been a big improvement on the last, getting IB and IW updates are basically like getting _new_ libraries.

For free.

So yeah, if I had a say in it, I'd say bring on the updates first!


----------



## monochrome

I like music said:


> How did I miss this?
> Amazing work. I was transported somewhere. Not sure where, but somewhere far away and cool.
> This was from July. I'm wondering if you added to it at all?


thank you so much!

nahh I haven't touched it since sadly. I wish I had time, but if the wind updates drop I'll probably go back to it or start something new!

I mostly just posted it because I don't want to fall in a hole where I'm always talking about music and libraries, but never actually create or share anything, regardless of how good or finished it is


----------



## Jamus

Imagine if instead of 2023 it switched to TBA 😬


----------



## DANIELE

Jamus said:


> Imagine if instead of 2023 it switched to TBA 😬


Maybe IP will switch from TBA to 2023 and IS will switch from 2022 to TBA.


----------



## gedlig

DANIELE said:


> Maybe IP will switch from TBA to 2023 and IS will switch from 2022 to TBA.


Are were talking Infinitine Percussion or Infinite Patience here? xD


----------



## DANIELE

gedlig said:


> Are were talking Infinitine Percussion or Infinite Patience here? xD


Who knows!!


----------



## Tanarri

Yea, the release dates get pushed back, but to me it's amazing this is one guy doing all this stuff. He's, by himself, slowly making all the big names in the samples industry obsolete.

If I was doing this since he had started, I'd probably be able to come up with the company name just about now.


----------



## Lord Daknight

gedlig said:


> Are were talking Infinitine Percussion or Infinite Patience here? xD


Infinite Prostitutes, Aaron has made libraries obsolete and is now making VR games obsolete


----------



## gedlig

Lord Daknight said:


> Infinite Prostitutes, Aaron has made libraries obsolete and is now making VR games obsolete


That sounds more like Infinite STDs


----------



## Lord Daknight

gedlig said:


> That sounds more like Infinite STDs


Not a problem, Dr. Aaron Venture made diseases obsolete too with Infinite Healthcare


----------



## Bruhelius

How about this Stravinsky mockup…i will not tell you which library this is. How does it stack up against the IW version…

Spoiler: see following posts


----------



## Bollen

Bruhelius said:


> How about this Stravinsky mockup…i will not tell you which library this is. How does it stack up against the IW version…


Damn! With that comparison you just convinced me that I like VSL the best.... ☹ Boo!


----------



## monochrome

was messing around with brass and made a mockup from guild wars 2, not 1:1 just a quick sketch:

View attachment hot brass test.mp3



interesting to compare it to the same theme but made when I first quit composer cloud and bought kontakt and infinite, with no idea what was going on:


monochrome said:


> just got the infinite series the other day, spent a while learning how kontakt works and building a template.
> 
> this is my first attempt at actually making a noise so as a test run I made an infinite wind orchestra version of the theme from guild wars 2 heart of thorns!
> 
> View attachment heartofthorns.mp3
> 
> 
> I really like how it blends when all the individual instruments actually come together. up until now I was just having so much fun playing the instruments as soloists as I set everything up!


the original for comparison


----------



## Juulu

mojamusic said:


> Awesome work, good sir! Do you have a Soundcloud profile or any music posted?


Not sure why I'm just now seeing this. Here's a link to my Soundcloud, not much music there though
Soundcloud


----------



## Juulu

Also, here's a stem of the brass section of a track I'm almost finished with (so many tracks in the incomplete void lol). I figured I'll keep posting examples since I was really craving all I could get before buying IB.

View attachment Malfaestus Brass.mp3


I was using Bersa here, but they still sound sorta dry for some reason. Still good nonetheless.

[Edit] Sorry for the long pauses lol


----------



## Bruhelius

Bollen said:


> Damn! With that comparison you just convinced me that I like VSL the best.... ☹ Boo!


Any guesses as to who this competitor may be? Clue: it is not a sample library.


----------



## Denkii

Bruhelius said:


> Any guesses as to who this competitor may be? Clue: it is not a sample library.


Uhh...what else is there...audiomodeling?


----------



## Bollen

Bruhelius said:


> Any guesses as to who this competitor may be? Clue: it is not a sample library.


Not a clue, definitely not something I own. Some of the instruments are nice, not crazy about the legato, especially when playing loud. The Bassoon sounds awful and the change of dynamics sounds artificial, which weirdly enough exposed to me that IW has the same problem...


----------



## Trash Panda

Bruhelius said:


> How about this Stravinsky mockup…i will not tell you which library this is.





Bruhelius said:


> Any guesses as to who this competitor may be? Clue: it is not a sample library.



This kind of unnecessary "mystery" reminds me of this. Just add spoiler tags with what it is.


----------



## ModalRealist

I’m trying to install Infinite Strings but I can’t find my download links?


----------



## monochrome

ModalRealist said:


> I’m trying to install Infinite Strings but I can’t find my download links?


same bruh same 😞


----------



## I like music

Aa


ModalRealist said:


> I’m trying to install Infinite Strings but I can’t find my download links?


Aaron can't find the upload links...


----------



## JCT-MusicTech

I like music said:


> Aa
> 
> Aaron can't find the upload links...


On the website, the site still says that Infinite Strings is coming soon.


----------



## Mikro93

Bruhelius said:


> How about this Stravinsky mockup…i will not tell you which library this is. How does it stack up against the IW version…


I prefer the IW version  I find some giveaways in the version you shared, which get me out of a state of suspension of disbelief. I'm not keen on the sound of the bassoon in the beginning, very dark, and I find some notes lack round robin, I hear the same attack on a given note over and over, especially on the English horn. That passage at 1:33 sounds a bit robotic, but it's a very difficult thing to program, so no sweat. Maybe all of these points could be addressed with a different programming, depending on the library?

I can hear the library is very playable though, the tone of the clarinets and oboe (except at 2:16) sounds nice to me, it's definitely a difficult exercise and the version you shared holds up really well overall!


----------



## Bruhelius

Bruhelius said:


> Any guesses as to who this competitor may be? Clue: it is not a sample library.


It’s an old demo that was uploaded to the Synful Orchestra website. I just downloaded it and thought it sounded quite organic. But of course I am fully aware of all the disadvantages of that plugin. I thought it would be a fun little blast from the past to compare it with what IW can do now.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Juulu said:


> Also, here's a stem of the brass section of a track I'm almost finished with (so many tracks in the incomplete void lol). I figured I'll keep posting examples since I was really craving all I could get before buying IB.
> 
> View attachment Malfaestus Brass.mp3
> 
> 
> I was using Bersa here, but they still sound sorta dry for some reason. Still good nonetheless.
> 
> [Edit] Sorry for the long pauses lol


This sounds so meaty. Are you using any EQ? What instruments are you using for low brass?


----------



## Juulu

NeonMediaKJT said:


> This sounds so meaty. Are you using any EQ? What instruments are you using for low brass?


There is a bit of EQ to reduce some low end frequencies as well as carving out a bit of mid. The low brass is all tenor trombones and tuba.


----------



## Lambchops

Just out of interest, are most of you running the Infinite libs on a 2nd machine? And is it possible to download 2 copies, 1 for laptop and one for 2nd (slave) PC? How do they run straight from an SSD without using VEP and 2nd computer?
Also, do the staff ever answer emails? Sent them an academic discount request a week ago and a reminder couple of days ago but no reply, not even to say they received my previous message... I know there’s busy, but..customers etc 🤷🏾


----------



## monochrome

Lambchops said:


> Just out of interest, are most of you running the Infinite libs on a 2nd machine? And is it possible to download 2 copies, 1 for laptop and one for 2nd (slave) PC? How do they run straight from an SSD without using VEP and 2nd computer?
> Also, do the staff ever answer emails? Sent them an academic discount request a week ago and a reminder couple of days ago but no reply, not even to say they received my previous message... I know there’s busy, but..customers etc 🤷🏾


@aaronventure my guy needs you fam

I have no idea I only have one PC and I do have a pretty good CPU (ryzen 9 5900) but I don't really have any issues with a full set of winds and brass. I haven't tried but I think you can download several? I don't think there's any activation at all but idk for sure. I'm sure somebody has done it


----------



## monochrome

also I should say that every time I have messaged him response has been insanely fast. I think the messages somehow just aren't being seen. pretty sure it's just one guy as well. so far I haven't had support from anyone besides AV personally


----------



## Russell Anderson

Lambchops said:


> Just out of interest, are most of you running the Infinite libs on a 2nd machine? And is it possible to download 2 copies, 1 for laptop and one for 2nd (slave) PC? How do they run straight from an SSD without using VEP and 2nd computer?
> Also, do the staff ever answer emails? Sent them an academic discount request a week ago and a reminder couple of days ago but no reply, not even to say they received my previous message... I know there’s busy, but..customers etc 🤷🏾


You can simply copy the library files to your second computer. I can't answer your other questions besides saying I am using only one computer without issue, granted with a 5950X but even my laptop runs an ensemble pretty much without issue (and there are Mixed Mic options to cut at least half of the cpu usage, which you can (manually) disable for rendering)


----------



## decredis

Lambchops said:


> no reply, not even to say they received my previous message...


I'm going to take that as proof that Infinite Strings is around the corner


----------



## Lord Daknight

Lambchops said:


> no reply, not even to say they received my previous message


Maybe they didn't receive it?


----------



## Jamus

Lambchops said:


> Just out of interest, are most of you running the Infinite libs on a 2nd machine? And is it possible to download 2 copies, 1 for laptop and one for 2nd (slave) PC? How do they run straight from an SSD without using VEP and 2nd computer?
> Also, do the staff ever answer emails? Sent them an academic discount request a week ago and a reminder couple of days ago but no reply, not even to say they received my previous message... I know there’s busy, but..customers etc 🤷🏾


I messaged Aaron about this once regarding a laptop installation and he told me there's nothing in the license preventing you from downloading them on a second machine. The instruments are tied to your account or email or whatever. If you don't have your download links i think maybe you could contact Aaron about it on the AV website.


----------



## Trash Panda

Lambchops said:


> Just out of interest, are most of you running the Infinite libs on a 2nd machine? And is it possible to download 2 copies, 1 for laptop and one for 2nd (slave) PC? How do they run straight from an SSD without using VEP and 2nd computer?
> Also, do the staff ever answer emails? Sent them an academic discount request a week ago and a reminder couple of days ago but no reply, not even to say they received my previous message... I know there’s busy, but..customers etc 🤷🏾


I run Infinite on my desktop and my laptop. It needs the same drive and path on both machines if you want to seamlessly pull up projects on either machine without getting Kontakt errors.


----------



## Bollen

Lambchops said:


> And is it possible to download 2 copies, 1 for laptop and one for 2nd (slave) PC?


- Normally you can install any of your Kontakt libraries in up to 3 computers.



Lambchops said:


> How do they run straight from an SSD without using VEP and 2nd computer?


- There are alternatives these days, but I don't know them at the top of my head. You'll have to do some research.

Can't help with the other stuff since I don't own AV products yet.


----------



## Lambchops

Ok, so pretty excited. I bought the bundle last night (AV eventually got in touch with EDU discount, I'm sure he's a lot on his plate).
Just made an octet with flute, trumpet 1 (harmon stem out), trumpet 2, clarinet 1, alto sax 1, French horn 1, tenor trombone 1 and bass clarinet and played these parts in.
Just 4 simple phrases legato using the mod wheel trying to get a feel for it (it seems pretty intuitive even after 30 mins). Pretty amazed at the almost instant result!
I lowered the volume of trumpet 2 slightly and pushed the muted trumpet 1 a little since they're playing the same part and pushed the level of the flute at the top a smidge but other than that didn't touch any levels.
The only instrument that definitely seemed artificial and didn't feel very good was the alto sax, but that's with every single sample library I guess. I think it sounds ok in the middle of the chord though and sure I can get more used to the way it reacts to playing/phrasing etc.
Placement of the instruments are as the default setting. Going to be interested to see what they sound like if I put them in a closer circle etc.
Anyhow, what an amazing piece of software!
View attachment Infinity octet default.mp3


----------



## Trash Panda

Lambchops said:


> The only instrument that definitely seemed artificial and didn't feel very good was the alto sax, but that's with every single sample library I guess.


I think saxophones just have a level expressiveness that requires a lot more work to get them to sound right on the performance side.

The below was just a quick little (less than an hour) mock up of a famous sax line that (to me) sounds fairly decent, even when exposed. There's a whole lot more I could play with on the MIDI CC's to make it sound more authentic, but you can go far with some liberal use of CC1, velocity and a little pitch bend. 

I'm sure @doctoremmet could probably elucidate what is missing and where if he cares to. 

Raw with reverb and limiter:
View attachment Baker Street Sax (Raw).mp3


Processed:
View attachment Baker Street Sax (Processed).mp3


----------



## rockrvilt

Juulu said:


> Also, here's a stem of the brass section of a track I'm almost finished with (so many tracks in the incomplete void lol). I figured I'll keep posting examples since I was really craving all I could get before buying IB.
> 
> View attachment Malfaestus Brass.mp3
> 
> 
> I was using Bersa here, but they still sound sorta dry for some reason. Still good nonetheless.
> 
> [Edit] Sorry for the long pauses lol


Excellent composing and IB sounds great here  Expressive and big!


----------



## rockrvilt

Here is my latest mockup, tried to tackle JW's The Imperial March to up my mockup game  The most badass villain music in my opinion 😎 All winds and brass are of course AV IW. Strings are CSS and SSS while we are waiting for Infinite strings. Used the 2019 recording by LA philharmonic with Dudamel as a reference track:


----------



## Trash Panda

rockrvilt said:


> Here is my latest mockup, tried to tackle JW's The Imperial March to up my mockup game  The most badass villain music in my opinion 😎 All winds and brass are of course AV IW. Strings are CSS and SSS while we are waiting for Infinite strings. Used the 2019 recording by LA philharmonic with Dudamel as a reference track:



This needs to go into the Member's Comp forum as its own thread.


----------



## Juulu

rockrvilt said:


> Here is my latest mockup, tried to tackle JW's The Imperial March to up my mockup game  The most badass villain music in my opinion 😎 All winds and brass are of course AV IW. Strings are CSS and SSS while we are waiting for Infinite strings. Used the 2019 recording by LA philharmonic with Dudamel as a reference track:



That was great! Did you play everything or did you draw it all in? Sounds awesome regardless. Also have you revisited your hedwigs theme mockup since CSS 1.7?


----------



## rockrvilt

Juulu said:


> That was great! Did you play everything or did you draw it all in? Sounds awesome regardless. Also have you revisited your hedwigs theme mockup since CSS 1.7?


Thanks!  I drew most of the repeated stuff with step-input as it was to fast for me to play, the melody I played, but edited heavily afterwards as I'm a very mediocre piano player 😛
No, don't think I'll be revisiting that, was a lot of work, and I would rather look forwards to new compositions or mockup covers 😉 Besides, was pretty happy with how the runs/strings turned out in Hedwigs theme, and learned a lot about programming string runs from that mockup, so I'm satisfied! Have heard other people doing attempts with the new 1.7 on the runs, and it sounds good, although a little too defined and less legato compared with the original, not bad, and CSS v. 1.7 is the best stand alone runs I've had so far, but I still use my BBCSO portamento trick in combination with CSS 1.7 on this mockup because it sounds better to my ears  Also layerd in some shorts on the stringruns on the end to make them sound more bowed


----------



## Lambchops

Trash Panda said:


> I think saxophones just have a level expressiveness that requires a lot more work to get them to sound right on the performance side.
> 
> The below was just a quick little (less than an hour) mock up of a famous sax line that (to me) sounds fairly decent, even when exposed. There's a whole lot more I could play with on the MIDI CC's to make it sound more authentic, but you can go far with some liberal use of CC1, velocity and a little pitch bend.
> 
> I'm sure @doctoremmet could probably elucidate what is missing and where if he cares to.
> 
> Raw with reverb and limiter:
> View attachment Baker Street Sax (Raw).mp3
> 
> 
> Processed:
> View attachment Baker Street Sax (Processed).mp3


Thanks for these. They def sound better than the one I used in my little example. Funnily enough to my ears thro phone speaker the 1st one sounds better. Still obvs not a real sax but a more realistic attack maybe?


----------



## Trash Panda

Lambchops said:


> Thanks for these. They def sound better than the one I used in my little example. Funnily enough to my ears thro phone speaker the 1st one sounds better. Still obvs not a real sax but a more realistic attack maybe?


It was quick and dirty processing on my part, so I probably screwed up something.


----------



## TonalDynamics

FireGS said:


> I probably shouldn't share this, but its a snippit of something I'm working on. All the brass is IB.
> 
> View attachment DR_24_7_2021(3).mp3


I'm a simple man, when I hear Nintendo done like this I insta-like



Those flamenco guitars sound great, how on earth did you do that with samples?!


----------



## FireGS

TonalDynamics said:


> I'm a simple man, when I hear Nintendo done like this I insta-like
> 
> 
> 
> Those flamenco guitars sound great, how on earth did you do that with samples?!


You don't! I hired a Spanish player from Cadiz!  Because samples just don't cut it.

Also, https://zreosq.com kthxbai


----------



## Getsumen

FireGS said:


> You don't! I hired a Spanish player from Cadiz!  Because samples just don't cut it.
> 
> Also, https://zreosq.com kthxbai


Wow! This is a goldmine. Fantastic stuff.


----------



## Jamus

rockrvilt said:


> Here is my latest mockup, tried to tackle JW's The Imperial March to up my mockup game  The most badass villain music in my opinion 😎 All winds and brass are of course AV IW. Strings are CSS and SSS while we are waiting for Infinite strings. Used the 2019 recording by LA philharmonic with Dudamel as a reference track:



The perception of space in this mockup is mint 👌
👌👌👌


----------



## I like music

rockrvilt said:


> Here is my latest mockup, tried to tackle JW's The Imperial March to up my mockup game  The most badass villain music in my opinion 😎 All winds and brass are of course AV IW. Strings are CSS and SSS while we are waiting for Infinite strings. Used the 2019 recording by LA philharmonic with Dudamel as a reference track:



Dear lord that's good!

Guessing you didn't do a ton of eq/reverb etc? Got good depth etc so I wondered how you achieved it!


----------



## rockrvilt

Jamus said:


> The perception of space in this mockup is mint 👌
> 👌👌👌





I like music said:


> Dear lord that's good!
> 
> Guessing you didn't do a ton of eq/reverb etc? Got good depth etc so I wondered how you achieved it!



Thank you borh😊 Used the Bersal hall space for all AV instruments, with mic position 4 or 5, cut some high frequencies on the brass to make it sound less harsh, and cut a bit if 600-800 Hz all round to get rid of frequency build up and muddyness, and some low cut on the bass instruments to match the reference track. Doubled some important notes in CSS with SSS to get a better spacial feel than CSS can manage alone. Just went for the mix-mic in CSS with 30 % built in reverb to better blend CSS with SSS. I then recorded all VSTs to high/low STEMs (high strings STEM, low strings STEM etc etc etc). Sendt all STEMs through sends via EW Spaces II Burbank scoring stage (subtle amount) to glue them together in a scoring stage kind of room and another send through EW Spaces II concert hall (very subtle amount). I send a bit more of high STEMS through reverb, a bit less if low STEMS, as to not make the track muddy 😊 Also sendt a small amount if each stem through a tape emulator (Black rooster Magnite) to glue it all together, and had a little bit of Gullfoss on the master just to make the mix a little bit clearer. But all pretty subtle, the goal is to open up and make the space of the mix sound realistic, well placed in a cohesive space and sounding clear, I'm not a fan of very long reverb tails 🙂


----------



## TonalDynamics

FireGS said:


> You don't! I hired a Spanish player from Cadiz!  Because samples just don't cut it.
> 
> Also, https://zreosq.com kthxbai


Ahhhhh, just had to cheat and use REAL musicians eh??

😠 💢 💢 👿 

And apparently you ARE one of those musicians, too? Even more cheating??

😤😤😤😤

Seriously though, anytime I see a fellow instru*mental*ist it brings warm feelings to my heart... it's a lonely world, but a noble one.

Seeing your drumkit off the flank of your keyboard (is that a Nord?) reminds me exactly of the setup I'm aiming to get, but some kind of Roland electronic kit (there's an SPD-30 there now), and instead of the recorder there's some (or any) type of guitar involved... and no accordion either, sadly.

Excellent work!


----------



## sound team apk

Trash Panda said:


> This needs to go into the Member's Comp forum as its own thread.


Please do. I'm embarrassed that any of my random draft mockups have appeared in the same thread as this ...

Though it was the @rockrvilt Main Titles mock that made me decide to try my all-IB Silverado mocks to see how I could do. Those really taught me a lot. So thanks for the inspiration 

Though now I'm feeling inspired to finally try a JW one (maybe the Asteroid Field...), so thanks for the huge distraction from my other projects


----------



## rockrvilt

sound team apk said:


> Please do. I'm embarrassed that any of my random draft mockups have appeared in the same thread as this ...
> 
> Though it was the @rockrvilt Main Titles mock that made me decide to try my all-IB Silverado mocks to see how I could do. Those really taught me a lot. So thanks for the inspiration
> 
> Though now I'm feeling inspired to finally try a JW one (maybe the Asteroid Field...), so thanks for the huge distraction from my other projects


So glad you like it, and that the SW mockup inspired you to try your hands on Bruce Broughtons masterpiece  Is it in this thread? Would like to check it out!

Haha, sorry for the distraction 😂 

Yes, the reasons for doing these mockups are to really try and make my mockups sound as realistic and good as possible, and I always learn a lot from them to bring to my mockups of my own compositions  

Astroid fields would be a bonkers mockup to make, holy moly, just listened to it again now with my mockup ears on, and man, a lot of challenges in that one 😅😅 Especially for strings, so many agile phrases, alternating chord pitches which requires round robins on legato, razor sharp portamento drops etc. etc. 🤯 And where would you get the sheet music for the que? Would NOT want to try and transcribe that monstrosity by ear 😅 But hats of if you do! Would be really cool to listen to


----------



## sound team apk

rockrvilt said:


> So glad you like it, and that the SW mockup inspired you to try your hands on Bruce Broughtons masterpiece  Is it in this thread? Would like to check it out!


Sure... why not. The Silverado ones are all in this thread (and the first led to some cool exchanges about how to get "regal" tones from IB, which I believe made my second one enormously better):

The Main Titles (the first one I did): https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-5091743
Some of the end credits: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-5138645
I was more focused on seeing if I could get the instruments to play what I wanted, so I gave up on trying to match Newman Scoring Stage pretty quickly. The strings in the first mock were CSS 1.5, so they were way too dark compared to the original. The second one is mixed entirely with microphones (the strings are just tree mics -- though not CSS this time) and has no glue reverb, saturation, nothing (though I asked Ozone to master it in "vintage" mode, which was fun and definitely helped glue things together).

Even considering my lack of mixing experience, etc., I came away from these deeply impressed by the Infinite horns and trumpets. I've tried using other horns since ... it's been pretty frustrating.



rockrvilt said:


> Haha, sorry for the distraction 😂
> 
> Yes, the reasons for doing these mockups are to really try and make my mockups sound as realistic and good as possible, and I always learn a lot from them to bring to my mockups of my own compositions
> 
> Astroid fields would be a bonkers mockup to make, holy moly, just listened to it again now with my mockup ears on, and man, a lot of challenges in that one 😅😅 Especially for strings, so many agile phrases, alternating chord pitches which requires round robins on legato, razor sharp portamento drops etc. etc. 🤯 And where would you get the sheet music for the que? Would NOT want to try and transcribe that monstrosity by ear 😅 But hats of if you do! Would be really cool to listen to


At least some version of the score is available in the second Hal Leonard Star Wars collection (expensive, of course, like all the other Hal Leonard JW stuff). But yes. It would be ... quite a stretch goal. So maybe I need to pick something else that won't defeat me so easily.


----------



## rockrvilt

sound team apk said:


> Sure... why not. The Silverado ones are all in this thread (and the first led to some cool exchanges about how to get "regal" tones from IB, which I believe made my second one enormously better):
> 
> The Main Titles (the first one I did): https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-5091743
> Some of the end credits: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-series-aaron-venture-thread.86499/post-5138645
> I was more focused on seeing if I could get the instruments to play what I wanted, so I gave up on trying to match Newman Scoring Stage pretty quickly. The strings in the first mock were CSS 1.5, so they were way too dark compared to the original. The second one is mixed entirely with microphones (the strings are just tree mics -- though not CSS this time) and has no glue reverb, saturation, nothing (though I asked Ozone to master it in "vintage" mode, which was fun and definitely helped glue things together).
> 
> Even considering my lack of mixing experience, etc., I came away from these deeply impressed by the Infinite horns and trumpets. I've tried using other horns since ... it's been pretty frustrating.
> 
> 
> At least some version of the score is available in the second Hal Leonard Star Wars collection (expensive, of course, like all the other Hal Leonard JW stuff). But yes. It would be ... quite a stretch goal. So maybe I need to pick something else that won't defeat me so easily.


Man, the Silverado mockups sounds very good! Especially from a programming view point  And in the last mockup you make the horns sound soooo good! The rips sound amazing! And the regal-ness is on point!

Interesting thoughts on the trombones (from the original posts), I also struggle a bit with the sound of those, sound a bit thin and harsh to my ears, and not enough oumph compared to e.g. Cinebrass. Have tried to mend that with EQ, just had an idea on maybe trying out tape saturation on them to see if that may help them sound a bit fatter and warmer 🤔 _(EDIT: Already thought of that and done that 😂, but cranked the saturation up a bit in my template, thought that sounded a little warmer and fuller)._ I've tried using growl to make them more biting in the past, with varying success...

For the dark string sound, have you tried the OTT plugin? Always makes my strings sound a bit brighter and pop more in the mix, and best of all, a free plugin  I usually set them to 16 - 20 % to lift the highs. I also use them on the high woodwinds for the same reason. It's used on all my mockups. https://splice.com/plugins/3788-ott-vst-au-by-xfer-records

And don't be discouraged from doing the Astroid field mockup, you are bound to come a cross a lot of problems to solve, and learn a lot 😉 Just might try it out for my self in the future, especially if there is a score to follow! Thanks for the tip on the star wars collection, will check that out!


----------



## I like music

rockrvilt said:


> Thank you borh😊 Used the Bersal hall space for all AV instruments, with mic position 4 or 5, cut some high frequencies on the brass to make it sound less harsh, and cut a bit if 600-800 Hz all round to get rid of frequency build up and muddyness, and some low cut on the bass instruments to match the reference track. Doubled some important notes in CSS with SSS to get a better spacial feel than CSS can manage alone. Just went for the mix-mic in CSS with 30 % built in reverb to better blend CSS with SSS. I then recorded all VSTs to high/low STEMs (high strings STEM, low strings STEM etc etc etc). Sendt all STEMs through sends via EW Spaces II Burbank scoring stage (subtle amount) to glue them together in a scoring stage kind of room and another send through EW Spaces II concert hall (very subtle amount). I send a bit more of high STEMS through reverb, a bit less if low STEMS, as to not make the track muddy 😊 Also sendt a small amount if each stem through a tape emulator (Black rooster Magnite) to glue it all together, and had a little bit of Gullfoss on the master just to make the mix a little bit clearer. But all pretty subtle, the goal is to open up and make the space of the mix sound realistic, well placed in a cohesive space and sounding clear, I'm not a fan of very long reverb tails 🙂


Thanks a ton for your detailed answer!

BTW agree on the trombones. I think it is pretty much consensus (or as close to consensus as you can get with libraries) that the trombones are a bit on the weaker side, compared to the other instruments.

Regardless, superb libraries.


----------



## rockrvilt

I like music said:


> Thanks a ton for your detailed answer!
> 
> BTW agree on the trombones. I think it is pretty much consensus (or as close to consensus as you can get with libraries) that the trombones are a bit on the weaker side, compared to the other instruments.
> 
> Regardless, superb libraries.


No problem, we are here to share knowledge and learn 😉

Yes, and that is the case for many libraries, hard to make the trombones sound right 😛 I've tried to mitigate that a bit by sending the three trombones in my template (tenor trombone 1, tenor trombone 2 and bass trombone 1) to a group channel in Cubase. On this group channel I use proQ3 and boost the low end around 100 - 200 Hz quite a bit, and cut a bit in the highs to make the group sound warmer and fuller. Also use a tape modulation (Black rooster Magnite) to try and make the group sound warmer. Definitely better sound than out of the box for me 





And also, some of the fullness of a group of players comes from being just a little bit off pitch and the organic tuning they do to each other, and if the sound is too perfectly in tune, it sounds thin and fake. This is a big risk with AV-series as they have the opportunity to be perfectly in pitch, being a modulated instrument. So I have no instruments on full pitch accuracy (thank you for that knob, Aaron Venture!), the leader of the group is highest, and then the other members lower as if they are tuning to the leader. Also I've pitched the whole Kontakt instrument for tenor trombone 2 and bass trombone 1 up or down 0.01 cent, just to make them a tiny bit out of tune, which I find sounds a tiny bit fuller to me.





I do the same thing for all groups in AV Infinite winds, e.g. Piccolo, flute 1 and flute 2; oboe 1 and oboe 2; clarinet 1 and clarinet 2; bassoon 1 and bassoon 2; trumpet 1, 2 and 3; and french horns 1, 2, 3 and 4  No one is perfectly in tune. It's all set up in my template ready to go when I'm starting a new composition og mockup.

Also, after I quantize and place the notes of a phrase for a group, I humanize it a tiny bit with a Logical editor preset I've made, just to vary the note onset, length and velocity just a tiny bit, to make it sound like a group of people playing rather than a machine. I don't like the humanize feature in the instruments that much as it can make the instrument struggle with playing fast repeated notes. Here is the preset I use in Cubase:




I turned the numbers down to -3 to +3 for this mockup because of the fast triplet ostinatos, and -5 to +5 was to much. In slower passages I turn it up to -10 to +10 for position and length. Just ads a subtle humanity to the phrases


----------



## I like music

rockrvilt said:


> No problem, we are here to share knowledge and learn 😉
> 
> Yes, and that is the case for many libraries, hard to make the trombones sound right 😛 I've tried to mitigate that a bit by sending the three trombones in my template (tenor trombone 1, tenor trombone 2 and bass trombone 1) to a group channel in Cubase. On this group channel I use proQ3 and boost the low end around 100 - 200 Hz quite a bit, and cut a bit in the highs to make the group sound warmer and fuller. Also use a tape modulation (Black rooster Magnite) to try and make the group sound warmer. Definitely better sound than out of the box for me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And also, some of the fullness of a group of players comes from being just a little bit off pitch and the organic tuning they do to each other, and if the sound is too perfectly in tune, it sounds thin and fake. This is a big risk with AV-series as they have the opportunity to be perfectly in pitch, being a modulated instrument. So I have no instruments on full pitch accuracy (thank you for that knob, Aaron Venture!), the leader of the group is highest, and then the other members lower as if they are tuning to the leader. Also I've pitched the whole Kontakt instrument for tenor trombone 2 and bass trombone 1 up or down 0.01 cent, just to make them a tiny bit out of tune, which I find sounds a tiny bit fuller to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do the same thing for all groups in AV Infinite winds, e.g. Piccolo, flute 1 and flute 2; oboe 1 and oboe 2; clarinet 1 and clarinet 2; bassoon 1 and bassoon 2; trumpet 1, 2 and 3; and french horns 1, 2, 3 and 4  No one is perfectly in tune. It's all set up in my template ready to go when I'm starting a new composition og mockup.
> 
> Also, after I quantize and place the notes of a phrase for a group, I humanize it a tiny bit with a Logical editor preset I've made, just to vary the note onset, length and velocity just a tiny bit, to make it sound like a group of people playing rather than a machine. I don't like the humanize feature in the instruments that much as it can make the instrument struggle with playing fast repeated notes. Here is the preset I use in Cubase:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I turned the numbers down to -3 to +3 for this mockup because of the fast triplet ostinatos, and -5 to +5 was to much. In slower passages I turn it up to -10 to +10 for position and length. Just ads a subtle humanity to the phrases


Great tips! I also knocked the brass out of tune ever so slightly and it made a difference. Need to try it with the woods!

The rest I'll give a go next week and see what it does! Thanks a lot agian.


----------



## Juulu

@FireGS do you mind if I ask how on earth did you mix that? I've been wanting to use IB in a small studio / Nintendo-esque soundtrack fashion, but it's hard figuring out how to pull it off. You absolutely nailed the sound!


----------



## sound team apk

rockrvilt said:


> Man, the Silverado mockups sounds very good! Especially from a programming view point  And in the last mockup you make the horns sound soooo good! The rips sound amazing! And the regal-ness is on point!


Thank you! I appreciate the encouragement and the time you took share your approach and offer suggestions.

The rips were really fun, and actually pretty trivial and intuitive to program. I'd never written with them before; they sparked joy. This is a good example where Infinite easily produces something I don't think I could do with anything else I have (great job @aaronventure). 



rockrvilt said:


> Interesting thoughts on the trombones (from the original posts), I also struggle a bit with the sound of those, sound a bit thin and harsh to my ears, and not enough oumph compared to e.g. Cinebrass


I agree that the trombones are a bit thin and harsh at higher dynamics. Though ... I've wanted more out of the Infinite trombones at times, but I would rather try to fatten IB's sound (or layer one of the many many options we have that focus on big brass sound) than only have a more hyped sound. 

A solo horn can get thicker than I've gotten out of an IB solo horn so far (in which case all the tricks we've been talking about are unavailable), but something like CSB's solo horn -- while thicker, with beautiful transition flutter on the legato -- is a more limited representation of a solo horn's tone and range. Most of the time, IB's sounds quite like real horns I'm used to hearing. 

(Granted, what a lot of users rightly want for their work is that richer end of the sound or the particular sound of a certain room. But if we're talking purely in terms of the real range of the real instrument outside of a small number of particular magic rooms used for film scoring ...)



rockrvilt said:


> For the dark string sound, have you tried the OTT plugin? Always makes my strings sound a bit brighter and pop more in the mix, and best of all, a free plugin  I usually set them to 16 - 20 % to lift the highs. I also use them on the high woodwinds for the same reason. It's used on all my mockups. https://splice.com/plugins/3788-ott-vst-au-by-xfer-records


So far, I've used almost no processing besides limiting in my mockups. But it might be time. I've gotten more confident on achieving the performance, and now I have to figure out how to make the sound itself more alive. When I ask Ozone what it thinks of my tracks, it always adds huge high frequency boosts, so clearly I'm missing something there. I think I've downloaded OTT, but never actually tried it. Thanks for the tip!



rockrvilt said:


> And don't be discouraged from doing the Astroid field mockup, you are bound to come a cross a lot of problems to solve, and learn a lot 😉 Just might try it out for my self in the future, especially if there is a score to follow! Thanks for the tip on the star wars collection, will check that out!


Mocking up The Asteroid Field would still be a pretty small diversion compared to another truly ridiculous project I started (especially in terms of length), and great string practice ... maybe it's time to do it.



rockrvilt said:


> No problem, we are here to share knowledge and learn 😉
> 
> And also, some of the fullness of a group of players comes from being just a little bit off pitch and the organic tuning they do to each other, and if the sound is too perfectly in tune, it sounds thin and fake. This is a big risk with AV-series as they have the opportunity to be perfectly in pitch, being a modulated instrument. So I have no instruments on full pitch accuracy (thank you for that knob, Aaron Venture!), the leader of the group is highest, and then the other members lower as if they are tuning to the leader. Also I've pitched the whole Kontakt instrument for tenor trombone 2 and bass trombone 1 up or down 0.01 cent, just to make them a tiny bit out of tune, which I find sounds a tiny bit fuller to me.


This is something I really played with to achieve the "regal horn" sound in my second mockup. We talked about saturation, etc., in the thread, but the chorale sound is entirely from detuning, fiddling with dynamic range, and performance. For each a2 line (in the Silverado score, basically everything is an a2 line), the non-lead horn is both quite detuned and has a compressed dynamic range (bringing up the lower dynamics) compared to the lead. It really fills in the sound, especially when the second horn has a different swell / dynamic shape. I also used the same approach with the trombones. Even though those aren't a2 lines, I think it still helps.

And it's not just "a bit." I think one of my non-lead horns had pitch accuracy turned down nearly to the bottom of the knob. On the trombones I would try using more than Aaron gives us (so far) if I could, at least in certain situations.


----------



## rockrvilt

sound team apk said:


> A solo horn can get thicker than I've gotten out of an IB solo horn so far (in which case all the tricks we've been talking about are unavailable), but something like CSB's solo horn -- while thicker, with beautiful transition flutter on the legato -- is a more limited representation of a solo horn's tone and range. Most of the time, IB's sounds quite like real horns I'm used to hearing.
> 
> (Granted, what a lot of users rightly want for their work is that richer end of the sound or the particular sound of a certain room. But if we're talking purely in terms of the real range of the real instrument outside of a small number of particular magic rooms used for film scoring ...)


Very interesting 😊 Realism vs hollywoodism. I think the horns probably are the most realistic sounding of all the instruments I've used in IB so far, but as you point out, there are more phat sounding VSTs out there if one really needs it 😊 And even orchestral recordings mix solo instruments in a way that sounds more "hyped"/bigger then they do in a concert hall 😊 So realism isn't everything, the right expression is more important IMO 🤷‍♂️




sound team apk said:


> So far, I've used almost no processing besides limiting in my mockups. But it might be time. I've gotten more confident on achieving the performance, and now I have to figure out how to make the sound itself more alive. When I ask Ozone what it thinks of my tracks, it always adds huge high frequency boosts, so clearly I'm missing something there. I think I've downloaded OTT, but never actually tried it. Thanks for the tip!


Yes, the mixing part always helps to blend the instrument together into a more cohesive sound for me 😊 I don't use Ozone, but Gullfoss, which usually also lift the highs a bit for me. CSS can sound very dark (less so with the 1.7 upgrade IMO), but OTT on 16-20 % always makes them pop more out of the mix, bringing more rosin to the table. Also a subtle scoring stage reverb send for all the instruments helps to blend the instruments better in a cohesive room 😊



sound team apk said:


> Mocking up The Asteroid Field would still be a pretty small diversion compared to another truly ridiculous project I started (especially in terms of length), and great string practice ... maybe it's time to do it.


I want to know what your other project is if it makes Astroid fields a small diversion 😅


sound team apk said:


> This is something I really played with to achieve the "regal horn" sound in my second mockup. We talked about saturation, etc., in the thread, but the chorale sound is entirely from detuning, fiddling with dynamic range, and performance. For each a2 line (in the Silverado score, basically everything is an a2 line), the non-lead horn is both quite detuned and has a compressed dynamic range (bringing up the lower dynamics) compared to the lead. It really fills in the sound, especially when the second horn has a different swell / dynamic shape. I also used the same approach with the trombones. Even though those aren't a2 lines, I think it still helps.


Wow, thank you for the great tip! Will try out compressing the dynamics and increase the detuning of the second instrument whenever I need a regal sound 😊


sound team apk said:


> And it's not just "a bit." I think one of my non-lead horns had pitch accuracy turned down nearly to the bottom of the knob. On the trombones I would try using more than Aaron gives us (so far) if I could, at least in certain situations.


Yes, it's situation dependant of course, changing from mockup to mockup and template to template 😊 I've been more aggressive with the detuning at times. Using CC33 to control it if I need different amounts in different places


----------



## sound team apk

rockrvilt said:


> Very interesting 😊 Realism vs hollywoodism. I think the horns probably are the most realistic sounding of all the instruments I've used in IB so far, but as you point out, there are more phat sounding VSTs out there if one really needs it 😊 And even orchestral recordings mix solo instruments in a way that sounds more "hyped"/bigger then they do in a concert hall 😊 So realism isn't everything, the right expression is more important IMO 🤷‍♂️


Absolutely, expression is most important. And by "realistic" I didn't even mean "better," though I personally prefer a more naturalistic, classical sound most of the time. But even classical recordings use parallel compression. And my perception of what I hear in person is also colored by the halls and where I tend to sit.

I just mean that I'd rather have Infinite the way it is as a baseline and add fatness when necessary rather than not have the choice (as with too many of my other brass libraries). Of course doing it all is best!



rockrvilt said:


> I want to know what your other project is if it makes Astroid fields a small diversion 😅


... relearn the Brahms D minor piano concerto, record it on my piano, mock up the orchestra part, and try to blend it all together (thank you, MIR) ... what could go poorly?

I think it's at least theoretically sort of maybe within the capabilities of my libraries if I use a lot of semi-modeled instruments ... but it's still 45m of classical music to program. I'll definitely need to work on my mixing.

The score calls for zero trombones, so at least that won't be a problem. 


rockrvilt said:


> Wow, thank you for the great tip! Will try out compressing the dynamics and increase the detuning of the second instrument whenever I need a regal sound 😊


Credit where it's due: adjusting the dynamic range was Trash Panda's idea, based on really good feedback from several others.

At first I had separate "regal horns" in my template with adjusted dynamic range, but now I store the dynamic range settings I like in an expression map articulation.


----------



## rockrvilt

sound team apk said:


> Absolutely, expression is most important. And by "realistic" I didn't even mean "better," though I personally prefer a more naturalistic, classical sound most of the time. But even classical recordings use parallel compression. And my perception of what I hear in person is also colored by the halls and where I tend to sit.
> 
> I just mean that I'd rather have Infinite the way it is as a baseline and add fatness when necessary rather than not have the choice (as with too many of my other brass libraries). Of course doing it all is best!


I agree 😊



sound team apk said:


> .. relearn the Brahms D minor piano concerto, record it on my piano, mock up the orchestra part, and try to blend it all together (thank you, MIR) ... what could go poorly?
> 
> I think it's at least theoretically sort of maybe within the capabilities of my libraries if I use a lot of semi-modeled instruments ... but it's still 45m of classical music to program. I'll definitely need to work on my mixing.
> 
> The score calls for zero trombones, so at least that won't be a problem.


45 minutes! Haha, that's a bit nuts 😂 Cudos to you if you have the stamina for that!



sound team apk said:


> Credit where it's due: adjusting the dynamic range was Trash Panda's idea, based on really good feedback from several others.
> 
> At first I had separate "regal horns" in my template with adjusted dynamic range, but now I store the dynamic range settings I like in an expression map articulation


Thanks for the tips anyway, to both you and TrashPanda 😊


----------



## Ziffles

Here's a track I did for Fool's Gold, a tabletop campaign, which also has a youtube series. The brass and winds are all Infinite:


----------



## FireGS

Ziffles said:


> Here's a track I did for Fool's Gold, a tabletop campaign, which also has a youtube series. The brass and winds are all Infinite:



That's ridiculously good.


----------



## andrewfreib

FireGS said:


> I probably shouldn't share this, but its a snippit of something I'm working on. All the brass is IB.
> 
> View attachment DR_24_7_2021(3).mp3


Wow! Just bought IB and IW and can't wait to start playing with them. I'm blown away by what you've put up here... Goodbye to keyswitches for wind and brass! 😊


----------



## Aitcpiano

Ziffles said:


> Here's a track I did for Fool's Gold, a tabletop campaign, which also has a youtube series. The brass and winds are all Infinite:



sounds brilliant, really good! What did you use for the strings and percussion?


----------



## Tanarri

rockrvilt said:


> Here is my latest mockup, tried to tackle JW's The Imperial March to up my mockup game  The most badass villain music in my opinion 😎 All winds and brass are of course AV IW. Strings are CSS and SSS while we are waiting for Infinite strings. Used the 2019 recording by LA philharmonic with Dudamel as a reference track:



Great work! Are the strings at 0:57 the measured trem from CSS?


----------



## Tanarri

I'm still thinking about IS. Do you think Aaron will sample single instruments again, making sections by putting them together like in IB?
Is he enough of a wizard to pull this off? I don't think anyone so far has been able to make this work. String sections made out of single instruments always sound... weird.


----------



## doctoremmet

Does this sound weird to you?





Weirder than other sample based libraries? Honest question. I quite like the sound of both examples but am completely unsure if I can trust my ears at this point. Which is likely why I utterly fail tests like this one:



Anyway. I fully trust Aaron to release something that is highly playable and that will raise the bar for “semi modelled” heavily scripted sample-based string libraries. For people with my ears it will likely be a hit


----------



## jaf518

Tanarri said:


> I'm still thinking about IS. Do you think Aaron will sample single instruments again, making sections by putting them together like in IB?
> Is he enough of a wizard to pull this off? I don't think anyone so far has been able to make this work. String sections made out of single instruments always sound... weird.


From the FAQ on aaronventure.com: 

_"Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. Also, all 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch."_


----------



## I like music

jaf518 said:


> From the FAQ on aaronventure.com:
> 
> _"Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. Also, all 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch."_


Imagine if he said "Hi everyone. After five years of work, I'm now up to 20 instruments. Only 40 more to go" 

Haha


----------



## Terry93D

Listening to the _ActRaiser Renaissance_ soundtrack and I am 85% sure that Koshiro used the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds for it.


----------



## aaronventure

Terry93D said:


> Listening to the _ActRaiser Renaissance_ soundtrack and I am 85% sure that Koshiro used the Infinite Brass and Woodwinds for it.


It's all over Xenoblade Chronicles 3 as well.


----------



## gedlig

He lives!


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> It's all over Xenoblade Chronicles 3 as well.


I don't doubt it's all over many other game soundtracks too. Do the composers for these games often tell you when they include your instruments?


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> I don't doubt it's all over many other game soundtracks too. Do the composers for these games often tell you when they include your instruments?


Rarely, but I don't really expect them to, either. It's a tool for a job


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> Rarely, but I don't really expect them to, either. It's a tool for a job


Your audio wizardry is only outshined by your modesty.


----------



## I like music

So, it falls to me to try again? Thanks everyone. Here we go... 

@aaronventure not intending to push, but are you able to share any detail on the strings, how they are coming along, learnings etc?


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> So, it falls to me to try again? Thanks everyone. Here we go...
> 
> @aaronventure not intending to push, but are you able to share any detail on the strings, how they are coming along, learnings etc?


Have you tried checking here yet: https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-strings


----------



## Bollen

Trash Panda said:


> Have you tried checking here yet: https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-strings


----------



## doctoremmet

Bollen said:


>


We've been Trash FAQ'd. That's a cousin of rickrolling.


----------



## Bollen

doctoremmet said:


> We've been Trash FAQ'd. That's a cousin of rickrolling.


I confess I had to Google that, I had no idea what you were saying... 😜


----------



## doctoremmet

Bollen said:


> I confess I had to Google that, I had no idea what you were saying... 😜


Luckily I explain all about it on my website:






Rickrolling: a brief explanation


Doctoremmet explains a cultural phenomen while waiting for Aaron Venture to drop Infinite Strings



rr.noordstar.me


----------



## bitbrain

Ziffles said:


> Here's a track I did for Fool's Gold, a tabletop campaign, which also has a youtube series. The brass and winds are all Infinite:



This is very impressive!


----------



## Mikro93

doctoremmet said:


> Luckily I explain all about it on my website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rickrolling: a brief explanation
> 
> 
> Doctoremmet explains a cultural phenomen while waiting for Aaron Venture to drop Infinite Strings
> 
> 
> 
> rr.noordstar.me


DAMN that is one smooth blog post. Good job.


----------



## aaronventure

I like music said:


> but are you able to share any detail on the strings


The news that I perhaps haven't shared yet is that they're gonna require Kontakt 6 and the engine will be utilizing all the new features that Kontakt 6 brought along. And it's a big improvement compared to K5 as to what can be done. 

Which is also why with the next versions of Brass and Woodwinds we're going to be saying goodbye to Kontakt 5.


----------



## Juulu

aaronventure said:


> The news that I perhaps haven't shared yet is that they're gonna require Kontakt 6 and the engine will be utilizing all the new features that Kontakt 6 brought along. And it's a big improvement compared to K5 as to what can be done.
> 
> Which is also why with the next versions of Brass and Woodwinds we're going to be saying goodbye to Kontakt 5.


You're making it very difficult not to pry here Aaron lol


----------



## Hristo3e

aaronventure said:


> The news that I perhaps haven't shared yet is that they're gonna require Kontakt 6 and the engine will be utilizing all the new features that Kontakt 6 brought along. And it's a big improvement compared to K5 as to what can be done.
> 
> Which is also why with the next versions of Brass and Woodwinds we're going to be saying goodbye to Kontakt 5.


Shall we expect true auto-divisi for Brass and Woodwinds to ?


----------



## mikeh-375

@Hristo3e why would you want auto divisi when you have individual instruments to exploit?.......just askin'


----------



## Hristo3e

mikeh-375 said:


> @Hristo3e why would you want auto divisi when you have individual instruments to exploit?.......just askin'


I want to play ensemble Brass with chords and engine divide voices on individual instruments.


----------



## Piotrek K.

aaronventure said:


> Which is also why with the next versions of Brass and Woodwinds we're going to be saying goodbye to Kontakt 5.


The time has come. I need to finally pay and update Kontakt ;(


----------



## DANIELE

Piotrek K. said:


> The time has come. I need to finally pay and update Kontakt ;(


Let's wait maybe 2022 will became 2023 so you will have plenty of time.


----------



## aaronventure

Hristo3e said:


> Shall we expect true auto-divisi for Brass and Woodwinds to ?


No. The added complexity of implementation and maintenance far outweighs the benefits, which are very small. Given that a switch will have to be utilized for divisi mode (otherwise the patch can't tell if you're playing fast or imperfectly launching multiple notes, the workflow benefits are few. If you don't play it in straight from the get-go, you'll have to go in and add the CC for the divisi mode manually. 

And since there are not that many duplicate brass and woodwind instruments in the orchestra, it's almost the same as if you just moved the notes up-down. You can punch in for multiple MIDI tracks, and modern DAWs usually let you view multiple MIDI tracks at the same time, so the changes are rather quick. 

You can already try it out with some tools, there's Divisimate which is by far the most advanced and there's the Multi-divisi script here on VI-C, which is free.


----------



## Lambchops

Just curious as to how many of you are running IB and IW from a single computer and how many from a separate PC?
I’m working on a project (first one with IB&W) and was running a standard orch (2 x fl,ob,cl,bs, 3 x tr, tb, 4 x fh, 1 tba) out of 2 Kontakt multis , plus some perc from NI symphony series all on my M1 8 core 2021 macbook. All ran fine. 
Then this morning added VEP7 from PC running 5 tracks of VI Synchronised Appassionata Strings and immediately started getting crackles and pops. 
PC CPU looked like it was running quite heavy for just those 5 instances of Synchron player so spent all morning trying to get to the bottom of that. No luck. 
Then froze the Kontakt tracks on laptop and suddenly strings from PC stop crackling. So wandering if MacBook was on the point of overloading and the extra VEP7 track drawing from the PC slave was the straw that broke the camels back. So debating whether to move all IB and IW libs to PC. Interested in other peoples set ups with this and if it’s worth doing that. I’m on Logic btw.


----------



## Saxer

Lambchops said:


> I’m on Logic btw.


Try to open an extra Kontakt for each instrument. It's easier to handle and Logic runs better with more instances compared to multis (in contrast to Cubase). I didn't try on M1 but I could run a complete orchestra with IW, IB (23 Kontakt plugins) and VSL strings etc.


----------



## Lambchops

Saxer said:


> Try to open an extra Kontakt for each instrument. It's easier to handle and Logic runs better with more instances compared to multis (in contrast to Cubase). I didn't try on M1 but I could run a complete orchestra with IW, IB (23 Kontakt plugins) and VSL strings etc.


Ah! This is very good advice. 
Was sure I'd read that using one instance of Kontakt was easier on the computer than many, but many are definitely easier for me to use. Will give it a try. 
Thanks


----------



## Jorf88

Hristo3e said:


> I want to play ensemble Brass with chords and engine divide voices on individual instruments.


You, my dear lad, need to look into divisimate.
It's sort of a royal PITA to set up, but it will blow your mind... especially if you get a breath/bite controller so your hands are both free.

I'm fairly certain that this has already been posted in this thread, but it's absolutely worthy of another post if it hasn't been:


----------



## rockrvilt

Tanarri said:


> Great work! Are the strings at 0:57 the measured trem from CSS?


Thanks! No, they are staccatisimo shorts as the measured trems don't include groups of three, just groups of two, and would be a nightmare to try and force groups of two into groups of three 😛 I use the staccatisimo instead of the spiccato to get more of a "on the bow" articulation, while spiccato is to "off the bow".


----------



## Hristo3e

aaronventure said:


> No. The added complexity of implementation and maintenance far outweighs the benefits, which are very small. Given that a switch will have to be utilized for divisi mode (otherwise the patch can't tell if you're playing fast or imperfectly launching multiple notes, the workflow benefits are few. If you don't play it in straight from the get-go, you'll have to go in and add the CC for the divisi mode manually.
> 
> And since there are not that many duplicate brass and woodwind instruments in the orchestra, it's almost the same as if you just moved the notes up-down. You can punch in for multiple MIDI tracks, and modern DAWs usually let you view multiple MIDI tracks at the same time, so the changes are rather quick.
> 
> You can already try it out with some tools, there's Divisimate which is by far the most advanced and there's the Multi-divisi script here on VI-C, which is free.


Thanks for the detailed reply. Some time ago I wrote to you about whether you will make ethnic flutes and especially kaval, should we expect such an update soon?


----------



## Hristo3e

Jorf88 said:


> You, my dear lad, need to look into divisimate.
> It's sort of a royal PITA to set up, but it will blow your mind... especially if you get a breath/bite controller so your hands are both free.
> 
> I'm fairly certain that this has already been posted in this thread, but it's absolutely worthy of another post if it hasn't been:




Hi, I'm familiar with Divisimate, but having trouble getting it to work properly


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> No. The added complexity of implementation and maintenance far outweighs the benefits, which are very small. Given that a switch will have to be utilized for divisi mode (otherwise the patch can't tell if you're playing fast or imperfectly launching multiple notes, the workflow benefits are few. If you don't play it in straight from the get-go, you'll have to go in and add the CC for the divisi mode manually.


I don't want to fall too deep in the guessing game but by reading this I think IS will feature some CCs to switch between articulations too.

So still no KS but more CCs to use (for the strings I don't see many other ways to go).

Well, this is totally fine for me.


----------



## aaronventure

No other way to go from arco to plucked/struck, really. Gonna let you assign modes to MIDI channels so you'll technically be able to play it in real time if your keyboard can split itself up into multiple zones with different MIDI channel outs, like the SL88. If not, I think it's still cleaner to edit MIDI in multiple channels instead of moving CCs/keyswitch triggers around when you need to make a change (although you'll be able to do it that way if you wish).


----------



## gedlig

Now that's even more reason for me to want Studio One to have multi channel midi tracks 

I want to ask more things about the features, but better not


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> No other way to go from arco to plucked/struck, really. Gonna let you assign modes to MIDI channels so you'll technically be able to play it in real time if your keyboard can split itself up into multiple zones with different MIDI channel outs, like the SL88. If not, I think it's still cleaner to edit MIDI in multiple channels instead of moving CCs/keyswitch triggers around when you need to make a change (although you'll be able to do it that way if you wish).


Ah ok, this is another thing I didn't think about. But it is more useful in real time playing I think.
The downside of this is that you have to limit the available instrument range (I think of the cello that has a very wide range) to get more articulation on the same keyboard at once.

It is less useful when you write down in the midi editor. Reaper offers multi-channel midi writing in the piano roll but you have to do many clicks to get it. It is less demanding to use KSs or CCs.

Between CCs and KSs I prefer CCs. Think about a tremolo for example (if don't want to perform it manually of course), even if the articulation change in real playing is abrupt I prefer to use a CC curve to blend it in, maybe with stroke velocity regulation based on CC level. This way I have a continuous control and I decide how to draw it.

Anyway having more options is better that being forced to use only one approach. I think I can split my NI MK1 S88 in multiple midi channels.


----------



## aaronventure

DANIELE said:


> Reaper offers multi-channel midi writing in the piano roll but you have to do many clicks to get it. It is less demanding to use KSs or CCs.


Really? I just press 1-9 on my keyboard, and the tilde to reset to "All channels". 

It's Reaper, there are custom shortcuts for anything.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Really? I just press 1-9 on my keyboard, and the tilde to reset to "All channels".
> 
> It's Reaper, there are custom shortcuts for anything.


I know I know. The thing is that I already have a lot of shortcut on the menu bar and other toolbars plus a lot of keyboard shortcuts. I also have the colormap based on velocity value and I should switch it on midi channel mode by loosing the velocity one.
I should have added "it is less demanding _for my actual workflow_".

I'd like to have a visual feedback of what I'm doing in the piano roll. About the keyboard I will study about what to do with it, no problem on that side.


----------



## decredis

Venturology-wise, AV being scarce for a while then suddenly very online... definitely means a major update or new release is imminent, right? He's been coding away furiously and now he's kicking back while some mysterious process [legal challenges from an army of pedantic mathematicians, iirc] occurs prior to its official release.


----------



## Piotrek K.

decredis said:


> Venturology-wise, AV being scarce for a while then suddenly very online...


Historically this is not true. All the data collected by now shows no connection between Aaron online behaviour and his libraries being updated / released.


----------



## I like music

Piotrek K. said:


> Historically this is not true. All the data collected by now shows no connection between Aaron online behaviour and his libraries being updated / released.


Although we're approaching the annual release anniversary of the brass in November right? 

A surefire sign that we'll get strings haha


----------



## gedlig

I like music said:


> Although we're approaching the annual release anniversary of the brass in November right?
> 
> A surefire sign that we'll get strings haha


Any new data concerning the pizza box theory?


----------



## Jamus

As long as you can play arco and switch to pizz by MIDI foot switch then i'm all good


----------



## ansthenia

Just make it so that it plays pizzicato if you play the keyboard with your left hand but plays arco if you play it with your right hand. Easy.


----------



## aaronventure

ansthenia said:


> Just make it so that it plays pizzicato if you play the keyboard with your left hand but plays arco if you play it with your right hand. Easy.


I mean, if you have a Leap Motion controller, that could definitely work, as long as you move the free hand over the controller so it can recognize it and send the appropriate CC for that hand, thus triggering the change to pizz.


----------



## monochrome

@aaronventure just wanna say we all appreciate you talking more about everything in general

idk if this is something you wanna answer but will the wind updates come out before strings or do you plan on waiting and dropping it all at once?

also is it possible to have a wind updates status section on the FAQ just like strings?


----------



## aaronventure

Current roadmap is Woodwinds update -> Brass update -> Strings. 

The updates should happen within a short window from one another, if not simultaneously. If all goes well, Strings should follow shortly after. The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.


----------



## Lord Daknight

aaronventure said:


> The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.


No sir, YOU have no idea how hyped we are right now


----------



## STMICHAELS

aaronventure said:


> Current roadmap is Woodwinds update -> Brass update -> Strings.
> 
> The updates should happen within a short window from one another, if not simultaneously. If all goes well, Strings should follow shortly after. The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.


I am primarily a keyboard player. I like what you are doing here. I am evaluating libraries right now and wish I could buy Woodwinds, Brass and Strings (when it comes out) in one nice bundle Considering these libraries for sure. Love the Demo's too.... Thx for visiting here and updating us.


----------



## emilio_n

aaronventure said:


> Current roadmap is Woodwinds update -> Brass update -> Strings.
> 
> The updates should happen within a short window from one another, if not simultaneously. If all goes well, Strings should follow shortly after. The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.


@aaronventure , I think you want to make everybody crazy. You can’t say this and don’t give more details 😂


----------



## DivingInSpace

emilio_n said:


> @aaronventure , I think you want to make everybody crazy. You can’t say this and don’t give more details 😂


Aaron knows what he is doing. He is using Qannon methods to keep his cult in place.


----------



## Lord Daknight

DivingInSpace said:


> Aaron knows what he is doing. He is using Qannon methods to keep his cult in place.


THE INFINITE ONE WILL SPEAK ONLY WHEN WE ABSTAIN FROM THE DEGENERACY THAT IS TRADITIONAL SAMPLING!


----------



## Ricgus3

aaronventure said:


> Current roadmap is Woodwinds update -> Brass update -> Strings.
> 
> The updates should happen within a short window from one another, if not simultaneously. If all goes well, Strings should follow shortly after. The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.


OMG I cannot wait! Infinite changed the game for me with the EWI. Really looking forward to this! Thank you for all your amazing work @aaronventure !


----------



## Russell Anderson

aaronventure said:


> You really have no idea what's coming


Laugh emoji not because of humor but because I am happy enough to just be laughing. My favorite libraries just keep getting better, it's almost bittersweet how awesome this is. Can't wait, but more than happy to! 

Also hey Leap Motion and TEController users, if you've used both, how the heck do they compare by feel and response? I'd love to try a Leap Motion but I'm not sure how I'd demo one without owning one, and they seem interesting and at the same time I have no idea if it'd make more tactile sense than a standard modwheel.


----------



## Piotrek K.

aaronventure said:


> You really have no idea what's coming.


New instruments (Wagner tuba!), new hall, even better sound + last but not least, Infinite Reverb with positioning tool instead of preconfigured spots.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> Current roadmap is Woodwinds update -> Brass update -> Strings.
> 
> The updates should happen within a short window from one another, if not simultaneously. If all goes well, Strings should follow shortly after. The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.


Please hurry!! The euro-dollar change is going bad and for the euro-guys out there means higher prices. 

Think about our poor wallets.


----------



## I like music

DANIELE said:


> Please hurry!! The euro-dollar change is going bad and for the euro-guys out there means higher prices.
> 
> Think about our poor wallets.


0 Euros = 0 Dollars so the exchange rate won't matter (speaking of the woodwinds and brass).

By the time the strings arrive, either we've all died in a fiery nuclear explosion, or the Euro has recovered a bit haha.

All is well!


----------



## Markrs

Russell Anderson said:


> Also hey Leap Motion and TEController users, if you've used both, how the heck do they compare by feel and response? I'd love to try a Leap Motion but I'm not sure how I'd demo one without owning one, and they seem interesting and at the same time I have no idea if it'd make more tactile sense than a standard modwheel.


I replied in another thread to help keep this one on track.

Post in thread 'UltraLeap VS Breath and Bite'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/ultraleap-vs-breath-and-bite.130690/post-5195142


----------



## Piotrek K.

I like music said:


> By the time the strings arrive, either we've all died in a fiery nuclear explosion, or the Euro has recovered a bit haha.


I guess joking is the only thing we can do now. So I hope I will have great wi-fi in my vault


----------



## Saxer

Russell Anderson said:


> Also hey Leap Motion and TEController users, if you've used both, how the heck do they compare by feel and response? I'd love to try a Leap Motion but I'm not sure how I'd demo one without owning one, and they seem interesting and at the same time I have no idea if it'd make more tactile sense than a standard modwheel.


I have both but I feel more comfortable with the TEC. Probably because I'm a wind instrument player and its feels like second (or first) nature to me. The Leap works well too but I didn't rehearse enough to move motion to control two CC's at once. Probably a matter of routine. With the TEC I have my left hand free to move another fader for vibrato.


----------



## ModalRealist

aaronventure said:


> You really have no idea what's coming.


Infinite Brass: Trombone Champ Edition


----------



## Vlzmusic

Piotrek K. said:


> I guess joking is the only thing we can do now. So I hope I will have great wi-fi in my vault


Heartwarming touch of wisdom, considering my joke back in March about nukes coming sooner than strings, was frown upon, complained about, and swiftly deleted.


----------



## I like music

Vlzmusic said:


> Heartwarming touch of wisdom, considering my joke back in March about nukes coming sooner than strings, was frown upon, complained about, and swiftly deleted.


I missed that! Maybe you were too good at prediction the future...


----------



## szurcio

Dying after testing Infinite Strings doesn't seem as scary as dying before its release


----------



## vicontrolu

"You have no idea what's coming" is not going to let me sleep tonight


----------



## Terry93D

aaronventure said:


> You really have no idea what's coming.


She listened to the words, foreboding growing in her heart. It was meant as a promise, something to excite the crowd. But to her it didn't sound like an invitation. It sounded like a threat.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Esteemed Music Software Developer Experiments on Own DNA, Rampages Through Central Canada​"Force of Nature:" Authorities urge caution, evacuation in light of unprecedented semi-biological threat

_Related: Consumers line up in wake of destruction ignoring calls for evacuation, citing "'Infinite Strings' Imminent Release"_


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> You really have no idea what's coming.


Crap. He’s going to become one with the Matrix.


----------



## Lord Daknight

aaronventure said:


> You have no idea what's coming.


guys I awoke to "YOU'RE PRETTY WHEN YOU SLEEP" written in blood in my walls


----------



## aaronventure

Piotrek K. said:


> New instruments (Wagner tuba!), new hall, even better sound


Come on, man. Think bigger.


----------



## Captain Oveur

aaronventure said:


> Come on, man. Think bigger.


----------



## aaronventure

Captain Oveur said:


>


Hah, I'm actually tempted. Maybe one day when I'm all out of ideas and instruments to do.


----------



## Lord Daknight

aaronventure said:


> Hah, I'm actually tempted. Maybe one day when I'm all out of ideas and instruments to do.


Ah, so we'll get our Octobass as well after you finish Infinite Jawharps I presume. I wonder how fitting it in your studio will go


----------



## liquidlino

aaronventure said:


> Come on, man. Think bigger.


240 piece strings band with full auto-divisi. So you can do everything from HZ Strings down to solo and everything in between. Multiple pre-defined seating arrangements to choose from. Full control over how the divisi works per desk, or chop whole sections up.


----------



## ZeeCount

aaronventure said:


> Come on, man. Think bigger.


----------



## Lambchops

Infinite Choir?


----------



## Lord Daknight

liquidlino said:


> 240 piece strings band with full auto-divisi. So you can do everything from HZ Strings down to solo and everything in between. Multiple pre-defined seating arrangements to choose from. Full control over how the divisi works per desk, or chop whole sections up.


If the 60 ensemble is all in patches, then it should follow the transposing algorithm that allowed the previous infinite libs to add more than the listed patches without phasing. 60x5=300 strings. May the Infinite One confirm this?


----------



## Denkii

aaronventure said:


> Come on, man. Think bigger.


New... proprietary sample Player!!!!!!

*runs for cover*


----------



## ansthenia

aaronventure said:


> Come on, man. Think bigger.


Look-ahead playback for sequenced quantised midi!


----------



## PerryD

Stage spill mics for added realism? Or, thinking "bigger", maybe a very big space will be added?


----------



## Lord Daknight

It's gonna abandon the virtual aspect entirely, our midi input will stream to enslaved real players who stream the sound back to us, the playback lag might be an issue though


----------



## doctoremmet

Lord Daknight said:


> the playback lag might be an issue though


Ah! But THAT’s where the pre-cogs come into the picture…


----------



## Lambchops

Actually what I’d like to see is an improvement in the saxophones. I’ve only just started using the libraries (and they’re amazing) but it seems the saxes lag behind the rest of the instruments in realism terms. 
I know this is common to pretty much all sample libraries and they’re the hardest thing to emulate because of many factors but a “levelling up” (to use a term recently much abused in British politics) would be a great thing. 
This is not a criticism btw, merely an observation. I’m a big fan already despite being a new user.


----------



## monochrome

Lambchops said:


> Actually what I’d like to see is an improvement in the saxophones. I’ve only just started using the libraries (and they’re amazing) but it seems the saxes lag behind the rest of the instruments in realism terms.
> I know this is common to pretty much all sample libraries and they’re the hardest thing to emulate because of many factors but a “levelling up” (to use a term recently much abused in British politics) would be a great thing.
> This is not a criticism btw, merely an observation. I’m a big fan already despite being a new user.


same. as a saxophone player it doesn't bother me too much since I can record those parts myself, but after some EQ to deal with the fullness of it being missing (same with the trombones), I think they're actually really good 

in my opinion the biggest things are some instruments feel a bit dull, like the flutes are lacking the magical airy feeling, and for all of the instruments I wish there was a way to simulate more human imperfection (yes tuning and some more grit in general, but also something like an option to increase player noise like accidentally bumping the stand and stuff. I think noire piano has something similar)

other than that, the only things I would love one day are

1. key clicks unique to each instrument, that vaguely take into account the notes being played (on saxophone the key clicks get way lower in the lower octave), rather than one universal key click for every instrument, or at least the option to switch between unique and universal. 

2. an option to assign cc64 to the standard sustain (especially when strings release) to make connected playing way easier

idc about anything else it's all bonus, whenever we get those things one day the library will do everything I would need a single library to do. it's all ready pretty much perfect for me, if the sound just gets even slightly better it's GG


----------



## aaronventure

Denkii said:


> New... proprietary sample Player!!!!!!


Since there's no way I can make it more optimized than Kontakt, or make it into an environment that's easy to work with, in less than a few years working on it, no.

Plus, I'm afraid that I might get tempted to start cutting corners on common/expected features, stability, and/or add a consumer-unfriendly DRM that breaks in the middle of your project, because that seems to be all the rage these days.


----------



## aaronventure

monochrome said:


> 1. key clicks unique to each instrument, that vaguely take into account the notes being played (on saxophone the key clicks get way lower in the lower octave), rather than one universal key click for every instrument, or at least the option to switch between unique and universal.


Yep, that's coming. Better saxes and flutes as well. Honestly, better everything. 



monochrome said:


> 2. an option to assign cc64 to the standard sustain (especially when strings release) to make connected playing way easier


What do you mean by this? I can't figure it out, sorry


----------



## Denkii

aaronventure said:


> Since there's no way I can make it more optimized than Kontakt, or make it into an environment that's easy to work with, in less than a few years working on it, no.
> 
> Plus, I'm afraid that I might get tempted to start cutting corners on common/expected features, stability, and/or add a consumer-unfriendly DRM that breaks in the middle of your project, because that seems to be all the rage these days.


But imagine the possibilities.
You can arbitrarily leave out features for no apparent reason. Those that should be very basic.
You could make it very unstable, just for fun (keeps the user engagement high I guess).
You can do so many things!
Like...you could put a huuuuge knob directly in the middle that only gives is access to...I don't know... The growl intensity, while also hide all features that we truly need 99% of the time.

The options are endless...one could say they are infinite.
Infinite player.
Coming soon™

Edit: oh oh! You could add a loot box DLC system to it that unlocks new features. Make sure that ADSR are 4 seperate loots and they are all extremely rare.
Imagine the cash flow. The management board will be very pleased.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

aaronventure said:


> What do you mean by this? I can't figure it out, sorry


I think he means that there should be an option to use the sustain pedal to, well, sustain the notes, not disable legato which is the current default.


----------



## monochrome

aaronventure said:


> Yep, that's coming. Better saxes and flutes as well. Honestly, better everything.
> 
> 
> What do you mean by this? I can't figure it out, sorry


actual W developer honestly



Jonathan Moray said:


> I think he means that there should be an option to use the sustain pedal to, well, sustain the notes, not disable legato which is the current default.


yeah exactly, I personally never used the legato disable for chords, but I know people do, so an option to switch it or not would be best I think


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> Come on, man. Think bigger.


Surely you don’t mean _that_ is coming?


----------



## aaronventure

monochrome said:


> yeah exactly, I personally never used the legato disable for chords, but I know people do, so an option to switch it or not would be best I think


Ah, alright. There's already a multiscript floating around here somehwere that replicates/reintroduces that for libraries that had it disabled, I think it's Virtual Sustain Pedal or something.

But let me see about implementing it. Now's a pretty good time to be asking for these things. Thanks.

Recently a user requested the ability to choose between time and velocity for Humanize, and I was able to find an elegant solution that won't clutter the UI. Also, the dreaded note hanging bug when playing shorts with high Humanize values will be no more. I think that one's been around for... well, it definitely overstayed its welcome. 

So fire away. The survey I did a while ago was very helpful, but it never hurts to hear more feature requests. Right now I can't believe I didn't think of the Humanize Vel/Time split sooner, so I do appreciate you folks talking feature requests.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@aaronventure, could I ask something a bit more technical? I'm not sure if you want to answer it, but I might as well ask. What added features and scripting capabilities do you feel warrant a move to Kontakt 6 for the next generation of the instruments? Any one feature in Kontakt 6 that you feel will really elevate the current instruments?

Just to be clear, I'll gladly move to the 6 or even 7 if it will help make the instruments even better.


----------



## monochrome

aaronventure said:


> Ah, alright. There's already a multiscript floating around here somehwere that replicates/reintroduces that for libraries that had it disabled, I think it's Virtual Sustain Pedal or something.


if it's out there somewhere then that's good enough for me! I don't care about things being pretty or whatever and it seems like not many people care about having that option so don't worry about it

the libraries are in such a good spot so far that all of our requests are such small nitpicky things that will come eventually, and if the sound of the instruments is improving then I don't have much else to complain about. i'll wait until after release to think of more!

we all appreciate you!


----------



## aaronventure

Jonathan Moray said:


> @aaronventure, could I ask something a bit more technical? I'm not sure if you want to answer it, but I might as well ask. What added features and scripting capabilities do you feel warrant a move to Kontakt 6 for the next generation of the instruments? Any one feature in Kontakt 6 that you feel will really elevate the current instruments?
> 
> Just to be clear, I'll gladly move to the 6 or even 7 if it will help make the instruments even better.


First of all, it's a superior development environment with Creator Tools. Writing complex code got a lot easier to debug. More UI options with custom fonts, easier UI management with panels, release velocity, note routing which almost completely eliminates huge group count requirements and higher-resolution internal modulation capabilities (like, nearly 10000x higher).

I can do a lot more in less time, and make it look, run and sound better. Which makes certain features, previously disregarded as "not worth it" because of time requirements, development and maintenance complexity and clutter, quite possible.


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> So fire away. The survey I did a while ago was very helpful, but it never hurts to hear more feature requests.


Can you bring back the breathiness control for woodwinds? 🙏


----------



## Denkii

Trash Panda said:


> Can you bring back the breathiness control for woodwinds? 🙏


Yes please!


----------



## Lambchops

Another request for down the line which I would certainly make a lot of use of:
Flugelhorns


----------



## Zanshin

@aaronventure 

An IR length/scale would be extremely useful! I use that feature in MIR all the time. The Infinite IRs themselves are fantastic, it would be cool to have more, but a length tool would be lower hanging fruit.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

aaronventure said:


> First of all, it's a superior development environment with Creator Tools. Writing complex code got a lot easier to debug. More UI options with custom fonts, easier UI management with panels, release velocity, note routing which almost completely eliminates huge group count requirements and higher-resolution internal modulation capabilities (like, nearly 10000x higher).
> 
> I can do a lot more in less time, and make it look, run and sound better. Which makes certain features, previously disregarded as "not worth it" because of time requirements, development and maintenance complexity and clutter, quite possible.


I totally forgot that Creator Tools was first introduced with Kontakt 6... that alone makes the switch perfectly understandable.


----------



## aaronventure

Trash Panda said:


> Can you bring back the breathiness control for woodwinds? 🙏


It's gonna be available for everything. Brass, too. 



Lambchops said:


> Flugelhorns


It's on the to-do list. Highly unlikely for this update, though. 



Zanshin said:


> An IR length/scale would be extremely useful! I use that feature in MIR all the time. The Infinite IRs themselves are fantastic, it would be cool to have more, but a length tool would be lower hanging fruit.


Coming. Only negative scaling of tails, though. Stretching them out beyond 10% at 48k sounds... not pleasant. I guess if you want a longer tail, you can just slap an algo reverb on top of it all and disable early reflections.


----------



## STMICHAELS

aaronventure said:


> It's gonna be available for everything. Brass, too.
> 
> 
> It's on the to-do list. Highly unlikely for this update, though.
> 
> 
> Coming. Only negative scaling of tails, though. Stretching them out beyond 10% at 48k sounds... not pleasant. I guess if you want a longer tail, you can just slap an algo reverb on top of it all and disable early reflections.


Will you include a bundle option for all three libraries when IS comes out?

I do not own any of your libraries but think your reputation and sound/playability is compatible with my needs as a keyboard player.


----------



## Mikro93

aaronventure said:


> Now's a pretty good time to be asking for these things.


Aaaaand so it begins.....

No, seriously, small request: when accessing the position panel, could you add a simple "Back" button? Right now, we have to click on the currently selected position, and I'm often confusingly looking for that Back button. That's because I often want to just see the currently selected spot rather than change it 

+1 on the breathiness and key clicks, I'm so stoked!

Apart from that, I filled the survey a while ago, so you have my suggestions somewhere


----------



## gedlig

aaronventure said:


> It's gonna be available for everything. Brass, too.


Strings also to reflect the sigh of agony of what insane bs they're asked to play by the composer?


----------



## HereGiam

Mikro93 said:


> No, seriously, small request: when accessing the position panel, could you add a simple "Back" button? Right now, we have to click on the currently selected position, and I'm often confusingly looking for that Back button. That's because I often want to just see the currently selected spot rather than change it


+1; the number of times I've changed the position without meaning to...


----------



## Russell Anderson

aaronventure said:


> Now's a pretty good time to be asking for these things.


I was avoiding making another request but I guess I'll make it!

Are there plans to reduce some of the woodwinds' legato transition times to reflect the speed of the note changes due to the rapid key depressions? For me the oboe is the one where I most notice the legato "slide" time being slower than the close-to-instant note changes from fingers going down on the keys.

I'm grateful for everything you're doing! These instruments sink so perfectly into the sound of the rest of my libraries and play in so well. I am almost a year into owning them now! Wow how time flies, and I am just as amazed and grateful that they exist, and how good they are, as a year ago.


----------



## mussnig

@aaronventure any chance one could have chord mode act in such a way that the velocity isn't ignored completely? Meaning that the attack script is still active.


----------



## Jamus

aaronventure said:


> First of all, it's a superior development environment with Creator Tools. Writing complex code got a lot easier to debug. More UI options with custom fonts, easier UI management with panels, release velocity, note routing which almost completely eliminates huge group count requirements and higher-resolution internal modulation capabilities (like, nearly 10000x higher).
> 
> I can do a lot more in less time, and make it look, run and sound better. Which makes certain features, previously disregarded as "not worth it" because of time requirements, development and maintenance complexity and clutter, quite possible.


Neeerdddddd. As long as strings go swoooshhhhh brass go BRAMMMM and wind go toot, then all is well in the world


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> It's gonna be available for everything. Brass, too.


Great to read this. I asked for this a long time ago if I remember correctly.


----------



## CplVignette

Will it be possible to rout the breath & click sounds on another output ?
Time & time again in countless vstis, these sounds get fed into hall reverbs and become huge pains to deal with, when you just want to have them on your close mics to give bite and presence without being excessively spatialized.


----------



## aaronventure

mussnig said:


> @aaronventure any chance one could have chord mode act in such a way that the velocity isn't ignored completely? Meaning that the attack script is still active.


In its current iteration, the imperfectly triggered subsequent notes would reset the attack functions. Perhaps I can have it focus only on the first note. Not ideal as any notes you launch later on would launch at whatever your current Dynamics value is, but perhaps a bit better than what we have right now. It's basically a "block chord voicing check" control anyway, so I think this should solve most of the issues you have with it being in full manual mode at the moment.

Good idea, let me see what I can do.


----------



## aaronventure

CplVignette said:


> Will it be possible to rout the breath & click sounds on another output ?
> Time & time again in countless vstis, these sounds get fed into hall reverbs and become huge pains to deal with, when you just want to have them on your close mics to give bite and presence without being excessively spatialized.


No. 

That's more of a problem of using too bright algo reverbs. The highs should roll off with distance. That super bright sparkly Valhalla reverb isn't really a thing in the real world. Not only a roll-off/LP filter, but the high frequencies need to decay a lot quicker, too. The reverb you use for orchestral music should ideally let you do that. I use FabFilter Pro-R.

If you use a reverb which doesn't have reduced high freq RT to simulate air absorption with woodwinds, you're mostly gonna be reflecting clicks like you said, because the woods don't have a lot of high freq information compared to brass or strings.


----------



## CplVignette

Hi Aaron, thx for your response and your marvelous work.
I was actually talking about the low (or "not that high") content that you can have with clicks and breath sometimes. For the flute, for example, breathy attacks can overlap with the tone, clicks on sax can have some mid freq content and it can become quite tricky to set right, whereas in a real recording, the breath & click sounds don't propagate in space like the rest of the tone (I guess, I'm no expert by any means). Not talking specifically about your instruments, just something that usually happen with these things.

I don't know what types of sounds you intend to use though.
I personally use Liquidsonics Cinematic Rooms.


----------



## shawnsingh

Infinite series makes me understand my kids better. I'm pretty sure this restlessness feeling of waiting for updates and strings is similar to the impatience that my kids feel for just about everything they have to wait for =)


----------



## Trash Panda

CplVignette said:


> I personally use Liquidsonics Cinematic Rooms.


Treble Contour would handle what he's talking about with the reduced high frequency RT time.

@aaronventure would it be possible to route the breaths and clicks only through the close mic IR?


----------



## CplVignette

Trash Panda said:


> Treble Contour would handle what he's talking about with the reduced high frequency RT time.
> 
> @aaronventure would it be possible to route the breaths and clicks only through the close mic IR?


I know the Treble contour option and use it, but I persist: it's not always enough  Especially for high instruments like trumpets or flutes, when you try to sculpt the high end without breathsounds getting out of control.
Your idea seems really clever though: being able to choose a clicks/breath volume per IR rather than having just a global one would be a quite handy workaround and might be enough.
Unless of course it's already just dry sounds put on top.


----------



## Juulu

monochrome said:


> same. as a saxophone player it doesn't bother me too much since I can record those parts myself, but after some EQ to deal with the fullness of it being missing (same with the trombones), I think they're actually really good
> 
> in my opinion the biggest things are some instruments feel a bit dull, like the flutes are lacking the magical airy feeling, and for all of the instruments I wish there was a way to simulate more human imperfection (yes tuning and some more grit in general, but also something like an option to increase player noise like accidentally bumping the stand and stuff. I think noire piano has something similar)
> 
> other than that, the only things I would love one day are
> 
> 1. key clicks unique to each instrument, that vaguely take into account the notes being played (on saxophone the key clicks get way lower in the lower octave), rather than one universal key click for every instrument, or at least the option to switch between unique and universal.
> 
> 2. an option to assign cc64 to the standard sustain (especially when strings release) to make connected playing way easier
> 
> idc about anything else it's all bonus, whenever we get those things one day the library will do everything I would need a single library to do. it's all ready pretty much perfect for me, if the sound just gets even slightly better it's GG


You mind explaining how you make the trombones sound more full? Still haven't figured that out yet


----------



## monochrome

Juulu said:


> You mind explaining how you make the trombones sound more full? Still haven't figured that out yet


I don't mean anything crazy or any special secrets. probably the same thing you do from the things you have posted. 

just a huge overdramatic cut in the highs with EQ and a bit of a saturation boost (or EQ) in the lows to low-mids. I use spectre for it.

of course it's not necessarily any better, I just like it more for the vibe I go for:

View attachment hot trombones test 1.mp3


compared to default (both have some gain boost)

View attachment hot trombones test 2.mp3


I still think there are a lot of problems in general that I'm hoping the updates look at, but overall together with everything I think the section fills its role just fine

View attachment hot theme.mp4


----------



## Juulu

monochrome said:


> I don't mean anything crazy or any special secrets. probably the same thing you do from the things you have posted.
> 
> just a huge overdramatic cut in the highs with EQ and a bit of a saturation boost (or EQ) in the lows to low-mids. I use spectre for it.
> 
> of course it's not necessarily any better, I just like it more for the vibe I go for:
> 
> View attachment hot trombones test 1.mp3
> 
> 
> compared to default (both have some gain boost)
> 
> View attachment hot trombones test 2.mp3
> 
> 
> I still think there are a lot of problems in general that I'm hoping the updates look at, but overall together with everything I think the section fills its role just fine
> 
> View attachment hot theme.mp4


Ok I see. I can definitely hear the difference. Do you know of any good saturation plugins? I don't think cubase artist comes with any.


----------



## monochrome

Juulu said:


> Ok I see. I can definitely hear the difference. Do you know of any good saturation plugins? I don't think cubase artist comes with any.


I'm not the person to ask lmaoo I just use whatever I have. more experienced people can answer tho. I think I got the idea of using wavesfactory spectre from a post from trash panda at some point


----------



## Trash Panda

Juulu said:


> Ok I see. I can definitely hear the difference. Do you know of any good saturation plugins? I don't think cubase artist comes with any.








Spectre | The ultimate enhancer | Audio plugin







www.wavesfactory.com





Plug this in on your low brass bus, dial in some low shelf or low-mid bell curve boost with Warm or Tape style saturation and enjoy the JXL Brass-like oomph it adds.


----------



## Trash Panda

Spectre in action on tenor bones a3. Mozarteum in standard position, pitch accuracy turned way down across the board.

Spectre Off:
View attachment IF Spectre Test (OFF).mp3


Spectre On with the settings below:
View attachment IF Spectre Test (ON).mp3


----------



## liquidlino

Trash Panda said:


> Spectre in action on tenor bones a3. Mozarteum in standard position, pitch accuracy turned way down across the board.
> 
> Spectre Off:
> View attachment IF Spectre Test (OFF).mp3
> 
> 
> Spectre On with the settings below:
> View attachment IF Spectre Test (ON).mp3


Man this sounds fantastic... I don't have Spectre, but I tried the same idea in Trash2 on your unprocessed example, sounds close to me? (Zipped Trash2 preset attached for reference)
View attachment TrashPandaTrash2.mp3


----------



## Trash Panda

liquidlino said:


> Man this sounds fantastic... I don't have Spectre, but I tried the same idea in Trash2 on your unprocessed example, sounds close to me? (Zipped Trash2 preset attached for reference)
> View attachment TrashPandaTrash2.mp3


It’s still lacking in the low end in comparison. Might need to add a low shelf and bell EQ boost in similar amounts. Still won’t be exactly the same because of how Spectre works.


----------



## skythemusic

I personally cannot wait to buy the whole series. Aaron will there be a package special or is it smarter to buy IB and IW now or after the update?


----------



## Russell Anderson

@Juulu you can do targeted saturation with any multiband saturator or Spectre, but a little-known (maybe not?) practice is emphasis EQ and de-emphasis EQ. It works similarly to Spectre as the workflow is largely centered around EQ, difference being it's still intermodulating with the whole spectrum like any full-band saturation because of not saturating independent separated pieces of signal (individual bands or individual difference-signal bands like in Spectre).

If you're in Reaper, parameter linking two EQs with an inverted gain/Y-axis per-band and sandwiching a saturation plugin of your choosing between them, and saving that as a recallable chain, is how you really get the most out of this workflow. That said, demoing Saturn, Spectre, Ozone etc. would probably be smart also. One might be your favorite by far.

I like PSP Saturator! That sidechain highpass and then cranking the warmth/low output is mega


----------



## I like music

Russell Anderson said:


> @Juulu you can do targeted saturation with any multiband saturator or Spectre, but a little-known (maybe not?) practice is emphasis EQ and de-emphasis EQ. It works similarly to Spectre as the workflow is largely centered around EQ, difference being it's still intermodulating with the whole spectrum like any full-band saturation because of not saturating independent separated pieces of signal (individual bands or individual difference-signal bands like in Spectre).
> 
> If you're in Reaper, parameter linking two EQs with an inverted gain/Y-axis per-band and sandwiching a saturation plugin of your choosing between them, and saving that as a recallable chain, is how you really get the most out of this workflow. That said, demoing Saturn, Spectre, Ozone etc. would probably be smart also. One might be your favorite by far.
> 
> I like PSP Saturator! That sidechain highpass and then cranking the warmth/low output is mega


I understood exactly 5% of that but I'm gonna make it my mission to understand it fully and apply it, if it has the effect I think it can have.


----------



## Ricgus3

Very cool! Any rekommendation on a fre saturation plugin that do the job? Saturation knob by softube ?


----------



## Trash Panda

Ricgus3 said:


> Very cool! Any rekommendation on a fre saturation plugin that do the job? Saturation knob by softube ?


If you're wanting to add warmth/low end, probably Air Windows Tape, Caelum Audio - Tape Cassette 2, your pick of the Analog Obsession saturators or Chow Tape.


----------



## liquidlino

I like music said:


> I understood exactly 5% of that but I'm gonna make it my mission to understand it fully and apply it, if it has the effect I think it can have.


----------



## I like music

liquidlino said:


>



Super! Thank you!


----------



## liquidlino

I like music said:


> Super! Thank you!


I have a reaper track template for it too if you want it... I've not used it much, I find trash 2 much faster and better results, but I'm not a mixing god like dan.


----------



## DANIELE

I don't want to put to much FX on the intruments in general, except for the panorama placement (placement + reverb). I found they sound already pretty well on their own but I hope that the new updates will solve all the lacks you pointed out here.


----------



## bFooz

liquidlino said:


> Man this sounds fantastic... I don't have Spectre, but I tried the same idea in Trash2 on your unprocessed example, sounds close to me? (Zipped Trash2 preset attached for reference)
> View attachment TrashPandaTrash2.mp3


Try any EQ.





View attachment untitled.mp3


----------



## bFooz

Russell Anderson said:


> @Juulu but a little-known (maybe not?) practice is emphasis EQ and de-emphasis EQ.


One of the saturation plugins that have emphasise-deemphasise built in is Kelvin from Tone Projects. https://www.toneprojects.com/kelvin-tone-shaper.html


----------



## Russell Anderson

bFooz said:


> One of the saturation plugins that have emphasise-deemphasise built in is Kelvin from Tone Projects. https://www.toneprojects.com/kelvin-tone-shaper.html


I didn't know it did! Goodhertz Tupe is another, now that you mention it.


----------



## Juulu

@aaronventure not sure if you're still answering questions but I was curious if there have been any changes to the way legato works? They sound great but sometimes the legatos in the low brass can sound off. Maybe because trombone players use more of a tongued technique? Either way I'm looking forward to what's next.


----------



## Ricgus3

Juulu said:


> @aaronventure not sure if you're still answering questions but I was curious if there have been any changes to the way legato works? They sound great but sometimes the legatos in the low brass can sound off. Maybe because trombone players use more of a tongued technique? Either way I'm looking forward to what's next.


I also reflected on this yesterday. The bass trombone has generally harder legato attacks to my ear.


----------



## Lambchops

Juulu said:


> @aaronventure not sure if you're still answering questions but I was curious if there have been any changes to the way legato works? They sound great but sometimes the legatos in the low brass can sound off. Maybe because trombone players use more of a tongued technique? Either way I'm looking forward to what's next.


I was recording some trombones today and got a more realistic feel from playing the instruments with slightly detached notes and riding the expression slider downward slightly immediately after the note sounds. Just using my ears to get the desired result. Have used the glisses to great effect elsewhere. Just the fact of having to actually play them rather than using a key switch is very satisfying.


----------



## Lambchops

Lambchops said:


> I was recording some trombones today and got a more realistic feel from playing the instruments with slightly detached notes and riding the expression slider downward slightly immediately after the note sounds. Just using my ears to get the desired result. Have used the glisses to great effect elsewhere. Just the fact of having to actually play them rather than using a key switch is very satisfying.


Also re trombones I’ve been lowering the dynamic response and playing them at a lower dynamic level, but greater volume to get a slightly warmer sound


----------



## Trash Panda

Juulu said:


> @aaronventure not sure if you're still answering questions but I was curious if there have been any changes to the way legato works? They sound great but sometimes the legatos in the low brass can sound off. Maybe because trombone players use more of a tongued technique? Either way I'm looking forward to what's next.


For trombones, you'll want to avoid overlapping notes unless you're wanting to capture the sound of the slide moving. It's not like a valve-based instrument and should not be played like one if you're aiming for realism. Either one note ending when the other one begins (instead of overlapping) or a small space like @Lambchops mentioned will get you that "re-tongued legato" you see in other libraries.


----------



## Robert_G

aaronventure said:


> *Current roadmap is Woodwinds update -> Brass update -> Strings.*
> 
> The updates should happen within a short window from one another, if not simultaneously. If all goes well, Strings should follow shortly after. The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.



Going by your history of release timing, this is realistically anywhere from a 2-5 year plan. I could easily be dead before the strings are released.
_"I'm struggling to get excited today."_

I've been wanting to get into Infinite ecosystem for some time now, but I won't touch it until the Strings are out. I can't imagine composing Winds and Brass with Infinite and then having to use a traditional sample library for the strings to match the composition. Also you'd be going back and forth in different mindsets....and I don't insert notes into midi much. I mostly free play all instruments on my digital piano and then edit. Going back and forth from traditional samples to Infinite would not be conducive at all since the 2 styles are like night and day.


----------



## Bollen

Robert_G said:


> Going by your history of release timing, this is realistically anywhere from a 2-5 year plan. I could easily be dead before the strings are released.
> _"I'm struggling to get excited today."_
> 
> I've been wanting to get into Infinite ecosystem for some time now, but I won't touch it until the Strings are out. I can't imagine composing Winds and Brass with Infinite and then having to use a traditional sample library for the strings to match the composition. Also you'd be going back and forth in different mindsets....and I don't insert notes into midi much. I mostly free play all instruments on my digital piano and then edit. Going back and forth from traditional samples to Infinite would not be conducive at all since the 2 styles are like night and day.


You could use SampleModeling in the meanwhile...


----------



## Robert_G

Bollen said:


> You could use SampleModeling in the meanwhile...


Also incomplete. No woodwinds...


----------



## Jamus

Robert_G said:


> Also incomplete. No woodwinds...


IW and IB with Sample Modeling strings?


----------



## Robert_G

Jamus said:


> IW and IB with Sample Modeling strings?


I know lots of people here don't mind mixing libraries, but I don't like to unless absolutely necessary.
My recent months of working with Cinematic Studios (complete), and the VSL Synchron Orchestra (complete enough)....have shown that my workflow speed drastically increases when the programming is the relatively the same for the entire orchestra, etc.
Even blending libraries is a time pit. One string library to the other I can guarantee the dynamics don't change the same when you lower or raise your CCs, so you can't just use the same CC1 programming for 2 different string libraries. The dynamics are certain to change differently for each one. The same goes for CC11, vibrato, etc, etc.
I don't want to waste time trying to match dynamics and other programming.
When Infinite Strings comes out, I will by one of the winds, brass, or strings, and if I like the different modelling style compared to traditional sampling, then I'll buy the other 2 right away. If I bought Infinite Woodwinds today and like them (which I'm sure I will), I'll be complaining until the strings come out....so it's all around better out of sight out of mind.


----------



## I like music

Robert_G said:


> I know lots of people here don't mind mixing libraries, but I don't like to unless absolutely necessary.
> My recent months of working with Cinematic Studios (complete), and the VSL Synchron Orchestra (complete enough)....have shown that my workflow speed drastically increases when the programming is the relatively the same for the entire orchestra, etc.
> Even blending libraries is a time pit. One string library to the other I can guarantee the dynamics don't change the same when you lower or raise your CCs, so you can't just use the same CC1 programming for 2 different string libraries. The dynamics are certain to change differently for each one. The same goes for CC11, vibrato, etc, etc.
> I don't want to waste time trying to match dynamics and other programming.
> When Infinite Strings comes out, I will by one of the winds, brass, or strings, and if I like the different modelling style compared to traditional sampling, then I'll buy the other 2 right away. If I bought Infinite Woodwinds today and like them (which I'm sure I will), I'll be complaining until the strings come out....so it's all around better out of sight out of mind.


But you've already missed years of enjoying IB and IW for what they are!

Perhaps think of it as training time. By the time IS comes out, you'll know how to navigate the series super well already.


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## shawnsingh

I'd also reserve judgement on Infinite Strings for a while, given the history of Aaron making great updates to them over the months/years. So if your strategy is to buy one of them to evaluate, perhaps choose WW or Brass to reflect where Strings could reach in a few years. =)

Not that I expect Strings to be a slouch on release. I'm very excited about what it could be. But I'm also not going to be disappointed if it doesn't have the features/qualities/sound I personally want. I'll be happy to give my constructive feedback and trust Aaron to take it or leave it and see where it evolves =)


----------



## styledelk

I don't know if this has been discussed here before, but does anyone else get a periodic hissing sound , kind of like a quiet wave, from Infinite Brass? Even when Cubase isn't on play, every few minutes or so a breathy hiss comes up and down for a second. It doesn't show on any particular instrument, and I only have Trumpet 1,2,3 loaded in the Kontakt 6 instance.


----------



## Juulu

Trash Panda said:


> For trombones, you'll want to avoid overlapping notes unless you're wanting to capture the sound of the slide moving. It's not like a valve-based instrument and should not be played like one if you're aiming for realism. Either one note ending when the other one begins (instead of overlapping) or a small space like @Lambchops mentioned will get you that "re-tongued legato" you see in other libraries.





Lambchops said:


> I was recording some trombones today and got a more realistic feel from playing the instruments with slightly detached notes and riding the expression slider downward slightly immediately after the note sounds. Just using my ears to get the desired result. Have used the glisses to great effect elsewhere. Just the fact of having to actually play them rather than using a key switch is very satisfying.


Ok I guess that kinda confirms it. I've actually been doing this since I figured that's how bone players usually play, but wasn't really sure if it was the right approach though.


----------



## Jamus

Robert_G said:


> I know lots of people here don't mind mixing libraries, but I don't like to unless absolutely necessary.
> My recent months of working with Cinematic Studios (complete), and the VSL Synchron Orchestra (complete enough)....have shown that my workflow speed drastically increases when the programming is the relatively the same for the entire orchestra, etc.
> Even blending libraries is a time pit. One string library to the other I can guarantee the dynamics don't change the same when you lower or raise your CCs, so you can't just use the same CC1 programming for 2 different string libraries. The dynamics are certain to change differently for each one. The same goes for CC11, vibrato, etc, etc.
> I don't want to waste time trying to match dynamics and other programming.
> When Infinite Strings comes out, I will by one of the winds, brass, or strings, and if I like the different modelling style compared to traditional sampling, then I'll buy the other 2 right away. If I bought Infinite Woodwinds today and like them (which I'm sure I will), I'll be complaining until the strings come out....so it's all around better out of sight out of mind.


I can relate.

Your ONLY option here is to get IW and IB asap and work on your wind ensemble writing! Think of it as a Picasso's blue period


----------



## Bollen

Robert_G said:


> I know lots of people here don't mind mixing libraries, but I don't like to unless absolutely necessary.
> My recent months of working with Cinematic Studios (complete), and the VSL Synchron Orchestra (complete enough)....have shown that my workflow speed drastically increases when the programming is the relatively the same for the entire orchestra, etc.
> Even blending libraries is a time pit. One string library to the other I can guarantee the dynamics don't change the same when you lower or raise your CCs, so you can't just use the same CC1 programming for 2 different string libraries. The dynamics are certain to change differently for each one. The same goes for CC11, vibrato, etc, etc.
> I don't want to waste time trying to match dynamics and other programming.
> When Infinite Strings comes out, I will by one of the winds, brass, or strings, and if I like the different modelling style compared to traditional sampling, then I'll buy the other 2 right away. If I bought Infinite Woodwinds today and like them (which I'm sure I will), I'll be complaining until the strings come out....so it's all around better out of sight out of mind.


I would normally agree, especially concerning _Sample _libraries. With all their different controllers, key switches, idiosyncrasies, etc. But when it comes to _Modelled _instruments, I think that's not quite right, especially if they both have Dry versions. You can quickly reassign all controllers so you can use the same CC for volume and vibrato and perhaps others. And in terms of dynamic behaviour, it would be pretty bad for Brass for example, to have the same dynamic behaviour or range as a String instrument!


----------



## PerryD

A slightly campy SciFi space piece with Infinite french horns and woodwinds at the end.


----------



## Robert_G

Bollen said:


> I would normally agree, especially concerning _Sample _libraries. With all their different controllers, key switches, idiosyncrasies, etc. But when it comes to _Modelled _instruments, I think that's not quite right, especially if they both have Dry versions. You can quickly reassign all controllers so you can use the same CC for volume and vibrato and perhaps others. And in terms of dynamic behaviour, it would be pretty bad for Brass for example, to have the same dynamic behaviour or range as a String instrument!


Sorry if I wasn't totally clear.
I'm wasn't talking about comparing the dynamics of a string library to a brass library
I was referring the layering of 2 of the same instruments but from different companies...ie two different Brass libraries layered together.

It often doesn't work without programming headaches because for example, Brass library 1 might hit FFF at CC120. Brass Library 2 might hit FFF at CC 125. One of the brass libraries might only go up to FF. Another one might not have the quietest dynamic.

For that reason and many others.....I do NOT layer instruments. The paragraph above proves the amount of work that the programming may require.


----------



## TonalDynamics

ModalRealist said:


> Infinite Brass: Trombone Champ Edition



So micro-transactions, then?

'_Fully customize your trombone HERO with accessories and skins from the shop!'_

It was just a matter of time before Aaron discovered the INFINITE money hack


----------



## El Buhdai

Robert_G said:


> I know lots of people here don't mind mixing libraries, but I don't like to unless absolutely necessary.
> My recent months of working with Cinematic Studios (complete), and the VSL Synchron Orchestra (complete enough)....have shown that my workflow speed drastically increases when the programming is the relatively the same for the entire orchestra, etc.
> Even blending libraries is a time pit. One string library to the other I can guarantee the dynamics don't change the same when you lower or raise your CCs, so you can't just use the same CC1 programming for 2 different string libraries. The dynamics are certain to change differently for each one. The same goes for CC11, vibrato, etc, etc.
> I don't want to waste time trying to match dynamics and other programming.
> When Infinite Strings comes out, I will by one of the winds, brass, or strings, and if I like the different modelling style compared to traditional sampling, then I'll buy the other 2 right away. If I bought Infinite Woodwinds today and like them (which I'm sure I will), I'll be complaining until the strings come out....so it's all around better out of sight out of mind.


I prefer to avoid it whenever possible as I share your opinion, but there doesn't exactly seem to be an abundance of modern orchestras that are complete. CSW took forever and we still don't have percussion. Infinite is great but I've been waiting on the Strings for 3 years now, with percussion likely coming in another eternity.

And the orchestras that _are_ complete have heavy stylistic limitations. Hollywood Orchestra is practically only good for action-adventure pieces, and becomes stiff and lifeless at lower dynamics. Many Spitfire orchestras fill the exact opposite niche, and the Cinematic Studio series seems to sit somewhere in the middle with its main appeal being consistency and not particularly excelling at either extreme.

It's not that I don't mind mixing libraries, it's moreso that if I want a project to do more than one thing, I _have_ to mix libraries.


----------



## mutex

AI SOLO is on sale 

How many sale-temptations do I have to survive until we get Infinite Strings?


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## Jerner

Honestly, I'm more hyped for an update to quite possibly the most useful brass library out there.


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## mutex

Jerner said:


> Honestly, I'm more hyped for an update to quite possibly the most useful brass library out there.


That's because you probably already bought too many string libraries


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## Lambchops

I'm quite keen to use my Dimension Strings as much as possible at the moment as I'm a bit worried that if Inf Str's come out and it's basically lots of playable solo instruments that also fit together as an ensemble, I'll not look at DS's for a bit...


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## Russell Anderson

PerryD said:


> A slightly campy SciFi space piece with Infinite french horns and woodwinds at the end.


I grew up on The Undiscovered Country!

3:17 - 

on mobile so cannot link timestamp. Your passage at :31 immediately put me there lol


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## gedlig

mutex said:


> AI SOLO is on sale
> 
> How many sale-temptations do I have to survive until we get Infinite Strings?


Just get it for Merethe vocals to perfectly pair with infinite strings


----------



## Lord Daknight

Lambchops said:


> Inf Str's


Infinite Sell to Renters?????!!!! Nooooo


----------



## Lord Daknight

gedlig said:


> Just get it for Merethe vocals to perfectly pair with infinite strings


You fools!! Have you no faith??? Do ye not knoweth that whenceever ye buyeth a traditionally sampled library Infinite Strings gets delayed!!!


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## gedlig

Lord Daknight said:


> You fools!! Have you no faith??? Do ye not knoweth that whenceever ye buyeth a traditionally sampled library Infinite Strings gets delayed!!!


Oh silly me. I shall return the 30 traditional libraries I bought this week :(


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## mutex

Every strings library that I buy now, is a library I will never use again once IS comes out. And once IS comes out, I will not need any other strings library ever again, because it will get updates until Aaron dies of old age (and I'll be dead before that). So I'm not buying any more woodwind, brass or string libraries right now, but that's also why I really need IS to come out.


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## Lord Daknight

mutex said:


> because it will get updates until Aaron dies of old age


Pfft. He'll totally have released Infinite Life by then


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## BHF

gedlig said:


> Just get it for Merethe vocals to perfectly pair with infinite strings


Those vocals are included in Jaeger not in solo if I’m not mistaken


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## mutex

BHF said:


> Those vocals are included in Jaeger not in solo if I’m not mistaken







This is included in SOLO as well.


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## gedlig

BHF said:


> Those vocals are included in Jaeger not in solo if I’m not mistaken


Jaeger has a specific type of sound from Merethe and Solo has two other kinds also sung by her


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## PerryD

Lord Daknight said:


> Pfft. He'll totally have released Infinite Life by then


But it will be a subscription service...


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## BHF

mutex said:


> This is included in SOLO as well.


Didn’t know, this is great than you


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## Juulu

Does anyone know if the mutes in IB are simulated or recorded? I was listening to some of my favorite orchestral pieces yesterday and noticed the horns had a buzziness that was different from just playing at higher dynamics and did some research. I had no idea that there's a "stopped" technique that horn players use, which is basically a hand mute. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Apparently, it's used whenever you need the horns to edge out over the other textural elements of the orchestra. I would love to have something like this in IB in the future.


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## Juulu

Juulu said:


> Does anyone know if the mutes in IB are simulated or recorded? I was listening to some of my favorite orchestral pieces yesterday and noticed the horns had a buzziness that was different from just playing at higher dynamics and did some research. I had no idea that there's a "stopped" technique that horn players use, which is basically a hand mute. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Apparently, it's used whenever you need the horns to edge out over the other textural elements of the orchestra. I would love to have something like this in IB in the future.



Another video I found, which is more of a demonstration.


----------



## HereGiam

Juulu said:


> Does anyone know if the mutes in IB are simulated or recorded? I was listening to some of my favorite orchestral pieces yesterday and noticed the horns had a buzziness that was different from just playing at higher dynamics and did some research. I had no idea that there's a "stopped" technique that horn players use, which is basically a hand mute. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Apparently, it's used whenever you need the horns to edge out over the other textural elements of the orchestra. I would love to have something like this in IB in the future.


I can't answer as to whether they are simulated or recorded, however the potstop mute for the horns gives you the hand stopping sound. The way I understand is that hand stopping will cause the horn to transpose so the player has to adjust to get the correct pitch. The potstop mute was designed to give the same effect as hand stopping but without the transposing. But I'm not a horn player so I don't know if there is a difference in tone between using a potstop mute vs hand stopping.


----------



## Bollen

Robert_G said:


> Sorry if I wasn't totally clear.
> I'm wasn't talking about comparing the dynamics of a string library to a brass library
> I was referring the layering of 2 of the same instruments but from different companies...ie two different Brass libraries layered together.
> 
> It often doesn't work without programming headaches because for example, Brass library 1 might hit FFF at CC120. Brass Library 2 might hit FFF at CC 125. One of the brass libraries might only go up to FF. Another one might not have the quietest dynamic.
> 
> For that reason and many others.....I do NOT layer instruments. The paragraph above proves the amount of work that the programming may require.


Ah right, you meant layering. Yeah, I've never done that....


----------



## TomaeusD

Juulu said:


> Does anyone know if the mutes in IB are simulated or recorded? I was listening to some of my favorite orchestral pieces yesterday and noticed the horns had a buzziness that was different from just playing at higher dynamics and did some research. I had no idea that there's a "stopped" technique that horn players use, which is basically a hand mute. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Apparently, it's used whenever you need the horns to edge out over the other textural elements of the orchestra. I would love to have something like this in IB in the future.



I don't own any of the Infinite Series yet, but Sample Modeling Brass, Spitfire Studio Brass, and CineBrass Pro all have stopped articulations. Would be nice to know how IB does it!

EDIT: Cinematic Studio Brass has Muted short and sustain but it could be hand stopped or potstopped as @HereGiam mentioned.
















By the way, I can never get enough Masashi Hamauzu. Nascient Requiem and Nautilus are some of my favorites by him - I wonder, did he have an orchestrator's help with those since they are outliers from the rest of the OST?


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## Juulu

TomaeusD said:


> I don't own any of the Infinite Series yet, but Sample Modeling Brass, Spitfire Studio Brass, and CineBrass Pro all have stopped articulations. Would be nice to know how IB does it!
> 
> EDIT: Cinematic Studio Brass has Muted short and sustain but it could be hand stopped or potstopped as @HereGiam mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I can never get enough Masashi Hamauzu. Nascient Requiem and Nautilus are some of my favorites by him - I wonder, did he have an orchestrator's help with those since they are outliers from the rest of the OST?


Interesting. Do you have any audio examples for these? I would love to hear them. And ya I am obsessed with the FF13 OST haha. I also think that he had some help from an orchestrator. Some of those pieces (Nautilus, Requiem, Fangs' theme, etc.) are super complex as far as orchestration goes. I honestly would pay top dollar to have the conductor's score of some of those pieces.

Edit: Nvm, found some old youtube videos. Thanks!


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## Jeremy B.

Juulu said:


> Does anyone know if the mutes in IB are simulated or recorded?


From earlier in this thread (p. 16)


aaronventure said:


> Simulations of recordings. Using impulse responses.


----------



## Jamus

TomaeusD said:


> I don't own any of the Infinite Series yet, but Sample Modeling Brass, Spitfire Studio Brass, and CineBrass Pro all have stopped articulations. Would be nice to know how IB does it!
> 
> EDIT: Cinematic Studio Brass has Muted short and sustain but it could be hand stopped or potstopped as @HereGiam mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I can never get enough Masashi Hamauzu. Nascient Requiem and Nautilus are some of my favorites by him - I wonder, did he have an orchestrator's help with those since they are outliers from the rest of the OST?


IB has a selection of mutes.

Tuba: Straight Mute
Horns: Straight Mute, Potstop
Trumpets/Trombones: Straight, Cup, Bucket, Harmon, Harmon (stem out)

Just looking at those articulation lists is giving me anxiety 😂


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## TomaeusD

Nice to know they have potstop in addition to straight, although simulated. Found how it sounds here:


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## Robert_G

El Buhdai said:


> I prefer to avoid it whenever possible as I share your opinion, but there doesn't exactly seem to be an abundance of modern orchestras that are complete. CSW took forever and we still don't have percussion. Infinite is great but I've been waiting on the Strings for 3 years now, with percussion likely coming in another eternity.


Percussion is so different than stings/brass/winds, that I can deal with a different library for it. Cinematic Studios goes well with other percussions so it's not a big deal. Although CSP will be an instabuy. 

VSL Synchron is only missing the solo strings and that isn't a problem (although they are an instabuy too). The solo strings are so upfront from the orchestra that any good solo string library will work. I find Emotional Cello/Viola/Violin to work perfectly with Synchron and Cinematic Studios.



El Buhdai said:


> And the orchestras that _are_ complete have heavy stylistic limitations. Hollywood Orchestra is practically only good for action-adventure pieces, and becomes stiff and lifeless at lower dynamics.



Not to mention EastWest as a whole is a disaster. I just stay away from them now.



El Buhdai said:


> Many Spitfire orchestras fill the exact opposite niche,



And if something has bugs, there is a good probability it will never get fixed or looked at again.




El Buhdai said:


> and the Cinematic Studio series seems to sit somewhere in the middle with its main appeal being consistency and not particularly excelling at either extreme.



Cinematic Studios is made by a guy who is a perfectionist. What you get is rock solid.



El Buhdai said:


> It's not that I don't mind mixing libraries, it's moreso that if I want a project to do more than one thing, I _have_ to mix libraries.


True enough. There is no Synchron Choir or Cinematic Studios choir. There will always be some mixing of libraries to do.....I just try to keep it to a minimum.


----------



## shawnsingh

Juulu said:


> Interesting. Do you have any audio examples for these? I would love to hear them. And ya I am obsessed with the FF13 OST haha. I also think that he had some help from an orchestrator. Some of those pieces (Nautilus, Requiem, Fangs' theme, etc.) are super complex as far as orchestration goes. I honestly would pay top dollar to have the conductor's score of some of those pieces.
> 
> Edit: Nvm, found some old youtube videos. Thanks!


Fang's theme is one of my favorites too. Been on my todo list to sit down and analyze the fantastic chord progressions in there.


----------



## AMBi

gedlig said:


> Jaeger has a specific type of sound from Merethe and Solo has two other kinds also sung by her


The vocals in Solo are from a different singer and aren’t sung by Merethe.


----------



## Pat Maddox

Does Infinite have any specific support for breath controllers? Or do you just remap dynamics to use CC2 (I think that’s breath) instead of CC1?


----------



## decredis

Pat Maddox said:


> Does Infinite have any specific support for breath controllers? Or do you just remap dynamics to use CC2 (I think that’s breath) instead of CC1?


Nothing specific, just remap to CC2 as you say. But I find it works nicely with the BBC2 breath controller.

EDIT: Oh that said, the Attack knobs do have relevance to BC use... From the guide to Infinite Brass:

"Attack Range (CC28) has values from 0 to 127. The value indicates the maximum range of the velocity-induced Attack and independence of Attack Dynamics from the main Dynamics value.

Having it at 0 will disable the Soft and Hard attacks, and you will have full control of Dynamics for non-legato notes, therefore having to play in the attacks yourself. This might be a desired behavior when using a breath controller."


----------



## Lord Daknight

BHF said:


> Didn’t know, this is great than you


'Great, Thank you'? 
Or
'She's a greater singer than you'?


----------



## gedlig

AMBi said:


> The vocals in Solo are from a different singer and aren’t sung by Merethe.


I was fairly certain it was also her in Solo 🤔 Oh well, still a good sounding voice nonetheless


----------



## Denkii

Pat Maddox said:


> Does Infinite have any specific support for breath controllers? Or do you just remap dynamics to use CC2 (I think that’s breath) instead of CC1?


No specific breath mode.

Either what you said or alternatively you just set it up so that breath controls CC1 in the TEC driver - which is what a lot of people do instead of remapping stuff to CC2.


----------



## Denkii

decredis said:


> Nothing specific, just remap to CC2 as you say. But I find it works nicely with the BBC2 breath controller.
> 
> EDIT: Oh that said, the Attack knobs do have relevance to BC use... From the guide to Infinite Brass:
> 
> "Attack Range (CC28) has values from 0 to 127. The value indicates the maximum range of the velocity-induced Attack and independence of Attack Dynamics from the main Dynamics value.
> 
> Having it at 0 will disable the Soft and Hard attacks, and you will have full control of Dynamics for non-legato notes, therefore having to play in the attacks yourself. This might be a desired behavior when using a breath controller."


Sorry for my double answer.
I didn't see your post earlier.


----------



## BHF

Lord Daknight said:


> 'Great, Thank you'?
> Or
> 'She's a greater singer than you'?


lol i suppose that she is a greater singer than all of us, but I just forgot the k for thank you my bad


----------



## decredis

Denkii said:


> Sorry for my double answer.
> I didn't see your post earlier.


No problem! Nice tip re: just changing the CC in the driver, for some reason it never occurred to me to do this


----------



## Denkii

decredis said:


> No problem! Nice tip re: just changing the CC in the driver, for some reason it never occurred to me to do this


That's how I use my breath controller.
Breath is CC1 exclusively and it's the best.
Even for synths. You can get great performances out of that compared to a modwheel.

Obviously you have to go in and redraw some stuff if you have very long notes or drones but i prefer it that way.

The modwheel still works for CC1 as well so if you know you want to use that instead, you can.


----------



## Ricgus3

Pat Maddox said:


> Does Infinite have any specific support for breath controllers? Or do you just remap dynamics to use CC2 (I think that’s breath) instead of CC1?


I use ewi and map dynamic to cc2. Works great! But the if you have a monophonic instrument (like an ewi, built for playing one note), then you need a legato overlap/sustain fix! Aaron made one that works great !


----------



## pierrevigneron

monochrome said:


> I don't mean anything crazy or any special secrets. probably the same thing you do from the things you have posted.
> 
> just a huge overdramatic cut in the highs with EQ and a bit of a saturation boost (or EQ) in the lows to low-mids. I use spectre for it.
> 
> of course it's not necessarily any better, I just like it more for the vibe I go for:
> 
> View attachment hot trombones test 1.mp3
> 
> 
> compared to default (both have some gain boost)
> 
> View attachment hot trombones test 2.mp3
> 
> 
> I still think there are a lot of problems in general that I'm hoping the updates look at, but overall together with everything I think the section fills its role just fine
> 
> View attachment hot theme.mp4


Sounds very good to me. Robust sound. Please, Monochrome give us eq profils ! Thanks !


----------



## Tag

Lambchops said:


> Just curious as to how many of you are running IB and IW from a single computer and how many from a separate PC?


I actually do run it on a single system. Running it on a Windows 10 pc with an i9 9900K in Reaper. Works quite nicely. I even can run it in realtime together with Sample Modeling Strings and some percussion libs and even with synths and effects.

I do hope that the next updates of _Infinite_ and the upcoming strings won't need much more CPU, though. :D


----------



## monochrome

pierrevigneron said:


> Sounds very good to me. Robust sound. Please, Monochrome give us eq profils ! Thanks !


I just mean something simple like this. just a rough eq and saturation that sounds close to what I want to hear. (it's a bit drastic, but ofcc everything can be changed based on the context)









View attachment who shall not be returning.mp3








here's what the top end sounds like with that cut

View attachment kena.mp3


----------



## sound team apk

Tag said:


> I actually do run it on a single system. Running it on a Windows 10 pc with an i9 9900K in Reaper. Works quite nicely. I even can run it in realtime together with Sample Modeling Strings and some percussion libs and even with synths and effects.
> 
> I do hope that the next updates of _Infinite_ and the upcoming strings won't need much more CPU, though. :D


I also have an 8-core i9 9900K (or maybe it's 9700K). Everything is in the one box. Usually I can run a whole orchestra worth of Infinite without much of a problem, even in pretty busy passages.

As a comparison point, five tracks of VSL Synchron Strings seem to cause me more CPU trouble than both Infinite sections combined. I'm sure there are things I could try to do with Infinite that would cause trouble too, but I've spent a lot more time keeping Synchron Player's voice count under control (not a big problem, but still something to think about) than I have dealing with Infinite's performance.


----------



## Pablocrespo

So, I am thinking about adding woodwinds to my infinite brass (to be ready for the strings), what would be the best way? .....waiting for a november deal to complete the winds bundle, or take advantage of the "complete bundle" option now?


----------



## Trash Panda

Pablocrespo said:


> So, I am thinking about adding woodwinds to my infinite brass (to be ready for the strings), what would be the best way? .....waiting for a november deal to complete the winds bundle, or take advantage of the "complete bundle" option now?


Guess it depends on what you value more. Being able to play with shiny new toys now or save maybe $50'ish by waiting.


----------



## Pablocrespo

I am very tight due to the currency’s exchange right now and want to buy strings also, and can wait a month…

Was just asking if there would be further savings if I wait to the sales taking into account previous deals


----------



## Piotrek K.

TomaeusD said:


> Nascient Requiem and Nautilus are some of my favorites by him - I wonder, did he have an orchestrator's help



Check Yoshihisa Hirano. It's his work. Dude is incredible, master of dissonance and incredible composer/orchestrator.


----------



## TomaeusD

Piotrek K. said:


> Check Yoshihisa Hirano. It's his work. Dude is incredible, master of dissonance and incredible composer/orchestrator.



No wonder I love it! I had no idea he orchestrated those, his music from Hunter X Hunter is fantastic.


----------



## gedlig

Pablocrespo said:


> I am very tight due to the currency’s exchange right now and want to buy strings also, and can wait a month…
> 
> Was just asking if there would be further savings if I wait to the sales taking into account previous deals


I got the woodwinds I think for 100€ last year crossgrading into the winds bundle during the anniversary (?) sale during november.


----------



## Juulu

Piotrek K. said:


> Check Yoshihisa Hirano. It's his work. Dude is incredible, master of dissonance and incredible composer/orchestrator.



It all makes sense now...


----------



## Juulu

Just checked and apparently they both worked on Dirge of Cerberus as well. Everything adds up haha.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Trash Panda said:


> I program in all the notes, so I leave the attack at its default setting and just adjust the velocity in relation to CC1 accordingly.
> 
> A nice sweet spot for getting a realistic rounded attack that you most often hear on actual recordings is with a velocity about 4-8 ticks below the CC1 value when the note starts.


TrashPanda I just wanna shout you out really quickly for all the advice you've given in this thread vis a vis the programming nuances for Infinite series (in addition to Aaron ofc) ; it's saved me a lot of time and given a greater insight into the behavior of the instruments.

Props!

🖐


----------



## Trash Panda

TonalDynamics said:


> TrashPanda I just wanna shout you out really quickly for all the advice you've given in this thread vis a vis the programming nuances for Infinite series (in addition to Aaron ofc) ; it's saved me a lot of time and given a greater insight into the behavior of the instruments.
> 
> Props!
> 
> 🖐


Happy to help others get the most out of these amazing instruments. 

👊


----------



## Juulu

Speaking of advice, for anyone wanting a simpler vibrato control, Aaron looped me in on a cool Kontakt feature a few days ago. Apparently, you can create midi automation for select controls on an instrument. This way you can map both the rate and depth to the same control and change the proportion (min max value) of each to your liking. Not sure if this was mentioned before but just thought I'd share. Just in your kontakt instance select automation -> midi automation -> and then the cc controller you want to change.


----------



## aaronventure

Juulu said:


> Speaking of advice, for anyone wanting a simpler vibrato control, Aaron looped me in on a cool Kontakt feature a few days ago. Apparently, you can create midi automation for select controls on an instrument. This way you can map both the rate and depth to the same control and change the proportion (min max value) of each to your liking. Not sure if this was mentioned before but just thought I'd share. Just in your kontakt instance select automation -> midi automation -> and then the cc controller you want to change.


You can also use that menu to drag and drop MIDI CC# to a slider/switch on the instrument interface, if it's automatable. That was you don't have to move the controller when you try to do it via right click > learn. Useful if you don't have physical controllers but want to draw CC for certain controls.


----------



## Trash Panda

aaronventure said:


> You can also use that menu to drag and drop MIDI CC# to a slider/switch on the instrument interface, if it's automatable. That was you don't have to move the controller when you try to do it via right click > learn. Useful if you don't have physical controllers but want to draw CC for certain controls.


I have this set up for the space selector along with an under the hood link to the space Tail IR length. It's nice to easily be able to get the depth of Mozarteum with a shorter tail in some use cases.


----------



## TonalDynamics

aaronventure said:


> awkward-sounding moments when a noisy sample fades out and the noise level/floor is suddenly changed in the middle of a piece.


You have no idea how much this irks me in general.

Or perhaps you do, to the extent that you decided to do something about it.


----------



## monochrome

so this is probably the most useless idea and I wouldn't expect it to ever be in any sample library but it just randomly popped into my head while on the bus home so consider it a feature request lmaoo 

for winds, what if there was a "realism mode" where the sustain pedal was assigned to lung capacity and notes would only sound when it's pressed, but if it is, any notes played would slowly deplete the player's breath level until the notes become more and more frail and die away (and there could be a knob to set the player's lung capacity/breath skill level, ofcc would also vary depending on the instrument, like some of the other parameters do)

and what if you could refill the lungs by releasing the pedal to trigger an inhale sample (with infinite variations), and the inhale breath would last either until the inhale is complete (a second or so like a regular musical inhale) or until the pedal is pressed again (for quick inhales during fast passages). and the lung capacity "tank" I guess would fill fully or partially depending on whether or not a full inhale was taken. this whole system would allow for a phrase to be played, but the pedal is still held so the breath isn't taken right after the phrase like some libraries, but before the next phrase, or whenever we decide to release the pedal to breathe

so random but I don't wanna let the idea slip my mind lmao


----------



## TonalDynamics

aaronventure said:


> Are you on 1.6? In 1.5, a couple of users were experiencing consistent phasing on their systems, and in 1.6 I deployed a fix which permanently fixed this. There should be no phasing whatsoever in 1.6.


Hmm, well this post was made about a year ago, but that demo demonstrates perfectly the phasing sound I get with 1.6 whenever two of the same instrument are performing a line _unisono_, even with humanize @ 50ms on Hn. 2, and humanize OFF on Hn. 1.

Humanize _does_ help the sound, but not very much in the phasing department when copy+pasting MIDI for unison parts apparently, at least not for me. 

With French Hn. by _far _the most effective and easy solution for me is to switch one of the lines to the CLOSE mic, while the leader plays with INST. (wish all the instruments had this option!)

Is it the modeled portions of the instruments that are responsible for the phasing, Aaron? 

I know you've recorded all different instruments within each section without duplicating samples (and also from different positions within the space afaik?), so it seems unlikely that the pure sustains themselves would be similar enough at their relative dynamics to cause this issue?

That being said, I'd like to report a very strange bug in Kontakt (Studio One 5.5.2, W10 LTSC x64) with Infinite Brass:


When adding the *'mixed mic' CC Slider (CC25)* to a track (in the form of a straight line at value 0, with no variation in value for the duration of the piece), and even in the absence of notes, a delay is added to the transport upon initiation of playback, and occasionally the scrubbing of the timeline when locating to a specific bar or beat.
The effect is cumulative, ie. I have 16 I.B. tracks within one instance of Kontakt, which adds approx. 1 sec of playback delay; removing each lane of CC25 (straight line @ 0 value, no changes) track by track reduces the delay by _~60 ms _per track, up to 0 delay when all have been removed.
It seems as though some kind of look-ahead is being employed by the mic-mix slider upon detection of _any_ CC, even in the absence of value changes... just thought I'd give you a head's up!

Cheers,
and thanks for your excellent work!


----------



## I like music

monochrome said:


> so this is probably the most useless idea and I wouldn't expect it to ever be in any sample library but it just randomly popped into my head while on the bus home so consider it a feature request lmaoo
> 
> for winds, what if there was a "realism mode" where the sustain pedal was assigned to lung capacity and notes would only sound when it's pressed, but if it is, any notes played would slowly deplete the player's breath level until the notes become more and more frail and die away (and there could be a knob to set the player's lung capacity/breath skill level, ofcc would also vary depending on the instrument, like some of the other parameters do)
> 
> and what if you could refill the lungs by releasing the pedal to trigger an inhale sample (with infinite variations), and the inhale breath would last either until the inhale is complete (a second or so like a regular musical inhale) or until the pedal is pressed again (for quick inhales during fast passages). and the lung capacity "tank" I guess would fill fully or partially depending on whether or not a full inhale was taken. this whole system would allow for a phrase to be played, but the pedal is still held so the breath isn't taken right after the phrase like some libraries, but before the next phrase, or whenever we decide to release the pedal to breathe
> 
> so random but I don't wanna let the idea slip my mind lmao


Would love this mode. I think Aaron may have hinted at something like this once...


----------



## Lambchops

I like music said:


> Would love this mode. I think Aaron may have hinted at something like this once...





monochrome said:


> so this is probably the most useless idea and I wouldn't expect it to ever be in any sample library but it just randomly popped into my head while on the bus home so consider it a feature request lmaoo
> 
> for winds, what if there was a "realism mode" where the sustain pedal was assigned to lung capacity and notes would only sound when it's pressed, but if it is, any notes played would slowly deplete the player's breath level until the notes become more and more frail and die away (and there could be a knob to set the player's lung capacity/breath skill level, ofcc would also vary depending on the instrument, like some of the other parameters do)
> 
> and what if you could refill the lungs by releasing the pedal to trigger an inhale sample (with infinite variations), and the inhale breath would last either until the inhale is complete (a second or so like a regular musical inhale) or until the pedal is pressed again (for quick inhales during fast passages). and the lung capacity "tank" I guess would fill fully or partially depending on whether or not a full inhale was taken. this whole system would allow for a phrase to be played, but the pedal is still held so the breath isn't taken right after the phrase like some libraries, but before the next phrase, or whenever we decide to release the pedal to breathe
> 
> so random but I don't wanna let the idea slip my mind lmao


I need a mode like this wired into my body for when I’m writing big band charts and getting caught up in slightly over optimistic piano players disease. I’m sure the horn players would appreciate it…


----------



## HereGiam

monochrome said:


> for winds, what if there was a "realism mode" where the sustain pedal was assigned to lung capacity and notes would only sound when it's pressed, but if it is, any notes played would slowly deplete the player's breath level until the notes become more and more frail and die away (and there could be a knob to set the player's lung capacity/breath skill level, ofcc would also vary depending on the instrument, like some of the other parameters do)





Lambchops said:


> I need a mode like this wired into my body for when I’m writing big band charts and getting caught up in slightly over optimistic piano players disease. I’m sure the horn players would appreciate it…


Fatigue mode. Maybe the humanize effects get a bit more the longer the player is being asked to play?

Not just in the winds either. Once saw a professional chamber orchestra (strings 8.6.4.4.2) playing Schubert Symphony No. 9. One of the cellists was completely drained by the end of the 4th movement.


----------



## Simon Passmore

Just bought IB, but it won't download past about 25MB. Anyone else had this issue? I started a couple of other things downloading just to check, and they're fine, I don't think it's my internet


----------



## blender505

DANIELE said:


> If in the next dream you will be able to try them let us know some insights, it could be useful before purchasing IS.
> 
> If you are able to do even some review it would be very useful too. How is the GUI?
> 
> Did you dream about IW and IB updates too?
> 
> Thank you.


Lol... I had another dream about IS last night and even got to visit Aaron's studio. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten to try it out as this time it wasn't finished. Though he did tell me which notes he had finished programming (cause I'm sure that's how that works).

Also the studio was outside and had a running fountain... so... at least it was kind of cool looking.


----------



## DANIELE

blender505 said:


> Lol... I had another dream about IS last night and even got to visit Aaron's studio. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten to try it out as this time it wasn't finished. Though he did tell me which notes he had finished programming (cause I'm sure that's how that works).
> 
> Also the studio was outside and had a running fountain... so... at least it was kind of cool looking.


OMG, 2023 delay is incoming. You are the infinite oracle.


----------



## Trash Panda

DANIELE said:


> OMG, 2023 delay is incoming. You are the infinite oracle.


It’s already showing 2023 on the website, so I’m thinking he’s right.


----------



## duringtheafter

Trash Panda said:


> It’s already showing 2023 on the website, so I’m thinking he’s right.


Hey, don't spread panic!
Captured this image today (Oct 22, 2022):


----------



## Trash Panda

duringtheafter said:


> Hey, don't spread panic!
> Captured this image today (Oct 22, 2022):


You need to clear your browser cache.


----------



## Markrs

Trash Panda said:


> You need to clear your browser cache.


I tried with 2 separate browser in Privacy mode and the image for Infinite strings still says 2022 for me.


----------



## Jerner




----------



## decredis

Infinite Trolling


----------



## ansthenia

Mine says 2024 using Safari


----------



## gedlig

Mine says 2020 using internet explorer


----------



## Lambchops

I had a look on Netscape Navigator and it says something about 404 so I’m guessing we’re looking at 4th April? 4040?


----------



## Lambchops

Finally got it to load on Netscape. Phew. Looks like we’re still good for 2022


----------



## blender505

Lambchops said:


> Finally got it to load on Netscape. Phew. Looks like we’re still good for 2022


Infinite browser compatibility


----------



## Lord Daknight

blender505 said:


> Infinite browser compatibility


Infinite Jokes


----------



## Salohcin894

Man, +1 to "I wish I had found this library sooner". It really sounds like it just does everything and does it in a sane way. 

I'm still trying to decide if I want to pull the trigger on AI Solo while it's on sale or save up for IW with an educational discount. My fear is that I've only heard Solo do longer lines, and libraries tend to fall apart when trying to do anything moderately fast. IW doesn't seem to have that limitation.

I'd love to write small intimate woodwind things like this:

 



Buuut the allure of having some other solo instruments is really tempting. So far I only have solo strings in the form of SF Alternative Strings (yuck), Tableau Solo Strings, and Performance Samples Solo Violin (current favorite). Funny enough though, I PLAY violin and viola, so I don't know why I stock up on string libraries. Ultimately, I'm sure the obvious answer is "Why not both Solo AND IW?" 

Would anyone be able compare a close mic run in Solo to IW? Do you think IW can tackle close position and dry woodwinds quartets?


----------



## vicontrolu

Aaron could have never thought that so many jokes and memes were going to bf made about "infinte".

Infinite fun


----------



## decredis

vicontrolu said:


> Aaron could have never thought that so many jokes and memes were going to bf made about "infinte".
> 
> Infinite fun


Only because we have Infinite Time on our hands waiting for the Infinite Strings-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named


----------



## Trash Panda

Salohcin894 said:


> Man, +1 to "I wish I had found this library sooner". It really sounds like it just does everything and does it in a sane way.
> 
> I'm still trying to decide if I want to pull the trigger on AI Solo while it's on sale or save up for IW with an educational discount. My fear is that I've only heard Solo do longer lines, and libraries tend to fall apart when trying to do anything moderately fast. IW doesn't seem to have that limitation.
> 
> I'd love to write small intimate woodwind things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buuut the allure of having some other solo instruments is really tempting. So far I only have solo strings in the form of SF Alternative Strings (yuck), Tableau Solo Strings, and Performance Samples Solo Violin (current favorite). Funny enough though, I PLAY violin and viola, so I don't know why I stock up on string libraries. Ultimately, I'm sure the obvious answer is "Why not both Solo AND IW?"
> 
> Would anyone be able compare a close mic run in Solo to IW? Do you think IW can tackle close position and dry woodwinds quartets?



I’m happy to share some renders of each if you have the MIDI for a specific line you want to hear. 

IWW can pretty much do anything if you like the tone and are willing to learn how to make it work. 

SOLO is for more lyrical lines (the Tifa theme on my YouTube channel is all SOLO for everything but piano and Perc). SOLO is certainly faster to get convincing results with if the piece falls within its sweet spot, but you can get there with IWW too if you put in the work.


----------



## Salohcin894

Trash Panda said:


> I’m happy to share some renders of each if you have the MIDI for a specific line you want to hear.
> 
> IWW can pretty much do anything if you like the tone and are willing to learn how to make it work.
> 
> SOLO is for more lyrical lines (the Tifa theme on my YouTube channel is all SOLO for everything but piano and Perc). SOLO is certainly faster to get convincing results with if the piece falls within its sweet spot, but you can get there with IWW too if you put in the work.


Thanks!

I'm away from my computer right now, but honestly just a diatonic 16th note run up at like 132 on both legato patches would do it for me. I think I can already guess the results as well based on your description. 

Another question: 

I am by no means a keyboard player, and I know that a lot of people say that the infinite series is worthwhile if you're comfortable playing piano. On the flip side, I've heard it can be difficult to edit in post because of the lack of key switches. I mostly approximate on keys and then nudge and edit things quite a bit on the piano roll. How is the workflow in that sense?

I have recently started playing lines on my Viola, and then using logic flex pitch to grab the midi data from the audio file. It's been a new, but nice workflow for me!


----------



## Juulu

Salohcin894 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm away from my computer right now, but honestly just a diatonic 16th note run up at like 132 on both legato patches would do it for me. I think I can already guess the results as well based on your description.
> 
> Another question:
> 
> I am by no means a keyboard player, and I know that a lot of people say that the infinite series is worthwhile if you're comfortable playing piano. On the flip side, I've heard it can be difficult to edit in post because of the lack of key switches. I mostly approximate on keys and then nudge and edit things quite a bit on the piano roll. How is the workflow in that sense?
> 
> I have recently started playing lines on my Viola, and then using logic flex pitch to grab the midi data from the audio file. It's been a new, but nice workflow for me!


I don't think that should be a problem. It depends on how you have IB/IW set up but if you have all the same instrument in a kontakt instance you can just draw everything in if you like. It might take a bit more work to make it sound authentic. If you have seperate tracks for each instance just draw the midi for one and then copy/paste it to other tracks. In my experience it's really rewarding editing IB midi in post. Especially because I don't have to place keyswitches. If I want a short note I draw a 16th, if I want a trill I draw a line and then a sequence of notes above/below the line.


----------



## duringtheafter

Salohcin894 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm away from my computer right now, but honestly just a diatonic 16th note run up at like 132 on both legato patches would do it for me. I think I can already guess the results as well based on your description.
> 
> Another question:
> 
> I am by no means a keyboard player, and I know that a lot of people say that the infinite series is worthwhile if you're comfortable playing piano. On the flip side, I've heard it can be difficult to edit in post because of the lack of key switches. I mostly approximate on keys and then nudge and edit things quite a bit on the piano roll. How is the workflow in that sense?
> 
> I have recently started playing lines on my Viola, and then using logic flex pitch to grab the midi data from the audio file. It's been a new, but nice workflow for me!


Absolutely can do it. I'll link you to a post of mine on another thread that addresses this exact trepidation and my relief / delight on buying both IB and IW:
Post in thread 'Infinite Brass for non keyboard player' https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-brass-for-non-keyboard-player.111721/post-4865215

That whole thread might be of interest too.


----------



## Lambchops

Trying to make IB swing.
Have messed about with it a bit, but not that much on this front. Recorded a blues in C, just improvising a few choruses with Trumpet 1 in the Studio setting with mixed mic #1.
This was one take, trying to waggle the mod wheel to get a control of the phrasing and dynamic. You can hear in the first couple of choruses my timing is slightly off (I think I was playing in time but just not with the right velocities / mod wheel stuff so it was coming out weird).
Seemed to get more accustomed to it from 40s onward.
Went back and adjusted a few velocities of notes that didn't speak correctly but that's it.
I think there's real potential to use this in a jazz/bigband/bebop type genre but will definitely take practice to learn how it responds to live playing..
Would be interested to know thoughts.

View attachment Jaazzy trumpet.mp3


----------



## shawnsingh

This is awesome - the foundations are truly there I think. But there's two uncanny valleys that I'm stuck on: (1) many of the slightly faster notes especially as the solo builds a groove, I would expect a trumpet player to be much more legato and not have short dips between every single note, and (2) the accenting feels like it dips too far into the bright power velocity range - sounds a lot like a keyboard player with an over-sensitive waterfall keybed =) A few times such a bright accent would feel like character, and especially if it didn't decay so fast (i.e. some CC along with?), but for this clip it happens on every accent in a way that feels too much.

If you feel the same way and have a chance to experiment with those issues, I'd be curious how close to "authentic" it gets.


----------



## Trash Panda

Lambchops said:


> Trying to make IB swing.
> Have messed about with it a bit, but not that much on this front. Recorded a blues in C, just improvising a few choruses with Trumpet 1 in the Studio setting with mixed mic #1.
> This was one take, trying to waggle the mod wheel to get a control of the phrasing and dynamic. You can hear in the first couple of choruses my timing is slightly off (I think I was playing in time but just not with the right velocities / mod wheel stuff so it was coming out weird).
> Seemed to get more accustomed to it from 40s onward.
> Went back and adjusted a few velocities of notes that didn't speak correctly but that's it.
> I think there's real potential to use this in a jazz/bigband/bebop type genre but will definitely take practice to learn how it responds to live playing..
> Would be interested to know thoughts.
> 
> View attachment Jaazzy trumpet.mp3


Really cool sounding performance!

First thing I would do is pull back the velocity values during the more intense parts to either right at or slightly below where the CC1 curve is at the time of note start. You're more likely to hear a more rounded attack in a real performance. There are of course times when a strong, transient-heavy attack make more sense (really short notes with spaces between them, sforzandos, etc.), but most of the ones here were not those times.


----------



## Lambchops

shawnsingh said:


> This is awesome - the foundations are truly there I think. But there's two uncanny valleys that I'm stuck on: (1) many of the slightly faster notes especially as the solo builds a groove, I would expect a trumpet player to be much more legato and not have short dips between every single note, and (2) the accenting feels like it dips too far into the bright power velocity range - sounds a lot like a keyboard player with an over-sensitive waterfall keybed =) A few times such a bright accent would feel like character, and especially if it didn't decay so fast (i.e. some CC along with?), but for this clip it happens on every accent in a way that feels too much.
> 
> If you feel the same way and have a chance to experiment with those issues, I'd be curious how close to "authentic" it gets.


Yep completely agree with all that listening back to it. 
I was riding the mod wheel in an accenting motion I think too much for most of it although on some of the phrasing around the 20s mark it seems to sit in the pocket right but then goes wobbly again. 
I found when I was fooling about with it that if I play legato it was difficult to nail the groove as the notes weren’t speaking when I wanted them to. But I think that’s just me not being used to the relationship between fast phrasing, velocity and the mod wheel position. It’s really interesting, sometimes it would come out right but I couldn’t quite put my finger on how I did it. 
I do like the way the legatos have come out at 1.22 the Bb-C-A-C-G-C fig with the slight portamento. 
Also I found grace notes tricky to make them speak as I intended. But I think it’s a practice thing with the instrument and also remember I didn’t tweak CC’s. I think some time spent doing that could produce really good results. 
Soundwise it’s a little too bright for my liking. Would like it to sound a little fuller. EQ? 
And some of the longer notes could certainly be warmed up with a bit of variable vib. 
It’s fascinating thinking of the potential of it. 
Will keep persevering when I have time and post results.


----------



## Lambchops

Trash Panda said:


> Really cool sounding performance!
> 
> First thing I would do is pull back the velocity values during the more intense parts to either right at or slightly below where the CC1 curve is at the time of note start. You're more likely to hear a more rounded attack in a real performance. There are of course times when a strong, transient-heavy attack make more sense (really short notes with spaces between them, sforzandos, etc.), but most of the ones here were not those times.


Thanks. Will try this. (See other reply also). 
I found myself getting better results pushing the mod wheel toward the end of a phrase to accent the final note but so easy to over do it.


----------



## Trash Panda

Lambchops said:


> Soundwise it’s a little too bright for my liking. Would like it to sound a little fuller. EQ?
> And some of the longer notes could certainly be warmed up with a bit of variable vib.
> It’s fascinating thinking of the potential of it.
> Will keep persevering when I have time and post results.


You can add a dynamic wide bell or shelf to tame the brightness, but you're likelier to get better results by pulling down the mod wheel values as your first point of experimentation.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@aaronventure, I have a request for Infinite Strings: synchronous/semi-synced vibrato where each player tries to get the vibrato in phase with the other players when playing. It's a subtle effect but can make a big difference. Not sure how this would work considering Kontakt instances can't talk to each other. It might not be too hard in the ensemble maker, but finding a way to achieve this with individual instances would need some figuring out.

My spontaneous idea would be that if each player/instrument/instance has the exact same vibrato speed setting they should all follow the same base sine and then adding a slider of how much the players can drift from that base value would solve this: lower values a more synced vibrato, higher values more asynchronous vibrato. The biggest problem I see is that you would have to figure out some way to make them line up with the base value so that the players always try to find their way back in phase with the base value and the other players. If the sine phase is also randomized on note-on that would need to be unified somehow across all the instances somehow. An added key-switch or similar could be added so that one can reset and line up, or just have them not be random in this mode.

I hope this is something you will consider, but I'll leave the wizardry up to you since you'll probably find a more elegant solution.

Also, have you figured out or found a solution for the 14-bit MIDI problem I brought up some months back? The problem where if you move two 7-bit controllers at the same time that together create a 14-bit controller i.e. CC1 and CC33, REAPER tries and create a single 14-bit controller which makes the controllers freak out.

Here's a link to the original post:






Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


Here's a little something I wrote. Ignore the writing itself... it's not very good. But this is where I feel like Infinite is missing something. As shown it does the louder more bombastic stuff quite well but when it comes to the more pp stuff it doesn't quite have that warmth and air that at...




vi-control.net


----------



## shawnsingh

Jonathan Moray said:


> synchronous/semi-synced vibrato where each player tries to get the vibrato in phase with the other players when playing. It's a subtle effect but can make a big difference.


Can you please elaborate on this? As a former strings player myself, I had never encountered this thinking process to try and get in-phase vibrato. If you can point to specific examples of the effect you're hear and like, I wonder if there might be a different explanation, and maybe that would lead to a different feature request for Aaron. Or maybe the examples would convince me that vibrato phase alignment is the right way to get those effects. I'm happy with either outcome =)


----------



## Jonathan Moray

shawnsingh said:


> Can you please elaborate on this? As a former strings player myself, I had never encountered this thinking process to try and get in-phase vibrato. If you can point to specific examples of the effect you're hear and like, I wonder if there might be a different explanation, and maybe that would lead to a different feature request for Aaron. Or maybe the examples would convince me that vibrato phase alignment is the right way to get those effects. I'm happy with either outcome =)


Sure. I've only seen this feature in one other library: SampleModeling Strings. So I'll just post their explanation of the concept instead of me trying to explain it, might make things easier. Here's a couple of excerpts from the SampleModeling Strings manual where they explain the concept in more detail:



> Chamber Ensembles differ from large Ensembles in many respects, the most important being the ability to play a very expressive, nearly synchronous vibrato. In our large Ensembles instead, expressive vibrato is both under control of CC1 and CC99, which act to recreate the richer sound of asynchronous vibrato. They can be used as a standalone multi (for chamber music) or in combination with the corresponding large Ensemble (for symphonic music): this combination has a richer sound, and adding the more soloistic vibrato of the Chambers to the Ensembles yields a much





> CC99 (ensemble instruments only): synchronous vibrato. The ensemble vibrato effect is controlled by CC1 and CC99. CC1 adds a "random", asynchronous vibrato. CC99 adds some synchronous components. Please refer to the note below.





> Important note on chamber and ensemble vibrato: a distinction needs to be made between the kind of vibrato used by a solo player, and the sectional vibrato of an entire string ensemble, which cannot be heard as a uniform quantity as such. Rather, it manifests itself in terms of the warmth and amplitude of the sound produced, as opposed to a perceptible wavering of pitch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrato). This occurs because symphonic strings vibrato is usually asynchronous. Our ensembles mainly exploit asynchronous vibrato, so that CC99, the controller yielding a synchronous component, is best set to zero. Vibrato rate (CC19) should be set to low values, e.g. 10-40. Under these conditions, the main effect of increasing CC1 will be to generate the richer sound of a large string ensemble playing random vibrato. Increasing CC99 may add some synchronous components, but this effect must be used sparingly and with moderation, e.g. by setting CC99 from 0 to 20. Synchronous (first chair) vibrato is conversely best obtained with our chamber instruments. In this case, CC99 is not used, and CC1 controls the intensity of a quasisynchronous vibrato. For best effects, vibrato rate (CC19) should be set to lower values than in solo instruments. Values between 20 and 40 will do.


----------



## duringtheafter

Jonathan Moray said:


> @aaronventure, I have a request for Infinite Strings: synchronous/semi-synced vibrato where each player tries to get the vibrato in phase with the other players when playing. It's a subtle effect but can make a big difference. Not sure how this would work considering Kontakt instances can't talk to each other. It might not be too hard in the ensemble maker, but finding a way to achieve this with individual instances would need some figuring out.
> 
> My spontaneous idea would be that if each player/instrument/instance has the exact same vibrato speed setting they should all follow the same base sine and then adding a slider of how much the players can drift from that base value would solve this: lower values a more synced vibrato, higher values more asynchronous vibrato. The biggest problem I see is that you would have to figure out some way to make them line up with the base value so that the players always try to find their way back in phase with the base value and the other players. If the sine phase is also randomized on note-on that would need to be unified somehow across all the instances somehow. An added key-switch or similar could be added so that one can reset and line up, or just have them not be random in this mode.
> 
> I hope this is something you will consider, but I'll leave the wizardry up to you since you'll probably find a more elegant solution.
> 
> Also, have you figured out or found a solution for the 14-bit MIDI problem I brought up some months back? The problem where if you move two 7-bit controllers at the same time that together create a 14-bit controller i.e. CC1 and CC33, REAPER tries and create a single 14-bit controller which makes the controllers freak out.
> 
> Here's a link to the original post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread
> 
> 
> Here's a little something I wrote. Ignore the writing itself... it's not very good. But this is where I feel like Infinite is missing something. As shown it does the louder more bombastic stuff quite well but when it comes to the more pp stuff it doesn't quite have that warmth and air that at...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


May I ask WHY you would want this? In what (real world) universe are multiple players in a Violin section in perfect sync, down to the rate of their vibrato? (And wouldn't the current IB/IW method of setting a vibrato rate and depth achieve this already, if the rate/depth values are identical and the notes start at exactly the same time?)


----------



## Bollen

duringtheafter said:


> May I ask WHY you would want this? In what (real world) universe are multiple players in a Violin section in perfect sync, down to the rate of their vibrato? (And wouldn't the current IB/IW method of setting a vibrato rate and depth achieve this already, if the rate/depth values are identical and the notes start at exactly the same time?)


I think it's a matter of texture, but if IS is supposed to be full divisi, then this should be easy to emulate.


----------



## Juulu

I thought up another IB request. What if you could make the brass "dirtier"? I was listening to a midi mockup the other day and when the brass were playing in their lower register there was this sort of imperfection about them. Almost like it was hard for the player to keep the flow of air consistent. The only way I could think to describe it would be not a growl but inadequate air flow. I tried emulating it a few different ways like using pitch wheel and/or sharp dynamic curves but couldn't get it right. The samples in IB are very clean so I'm not even sure something like this could be done programmatically but I thought it would be cool.2


----------



## shawnsingh

Jonathan Moray said:


> Sure. I've only seen this feature in one other library: SampleModeling Strings. So I'll just post their explanation of the concept instead of me trying to explain it, might make things easier. Here's a couple of excerpts from the SampleModeling Strings manual where they explain the concept in more detail:



Ah, OK... I remember reading this from SM Strings manual. I did not try this feature yet. 

With the disclaimer that I haven't tried the feature yet, my impression is that this is one possible way to model the "individual threads of a few players that stick out from the ensemble sometimes" that can greatly add to the perception of expression and detail of a performance - something that general xfading libraries are usually missing unless that bake "too much" expressiveness into the samples that it's hard to perform with it. I don't think the manual's description ever claimed that players themselves would try to line up their vibrato oscillations, but that it may happen by coincidence just by the nature of how vibrato might be performed similarly in many cases. Worth noting, there's also a similar effect with humanizing other performance details - detune and subsequent tuning effects, note change timing inaccuracies, bow change or bow crunch timing inaccuracies. I hope all such inaccuracies could be modeled in IS and, to a degree, maybe even user-controlled... but I also don't have a good feel for how important they'd be, either. Part of me wonders if these effects are better realized by performing 3 different groups of strings players separately, just like performing individual brass players in IB.

In any case, I also have SampleModeling strings so I'll see if I can try it some time soon to understand it, and will report back =)


----------



## Bollen

shawnsingh said:


> Ah, OK... I remember reading this from SM Strings manual. I did not try this feature yet.


You should, it's lovely!


----------



## liquidlino

If talking about humanization (the vibrato discussion), there's a whole world of humanization out there that could come into play.

James Holden, a trance/electronica producer, explored humanization in depth a while back, and co-developed a set of Max4Live plugins. Essentially based on a research paper that explored how real life players interact with each other during performances to adjust timing and feel in response to each other.

I see this could be applied to ensemble forming instruments, and across whole orchestrations. It's clear the musical coupling example below is far more musical and realistic than the random humanizations in examples 2 and 3.









Download James Holden's Group Humanizer patch


James Holdens’ Group Humanizer is a new Max for Live patch that uses the nuance of human timing errors to add an organic, realistic groove to your productions.




www.ableton.com













GitHub - holgerhennig/humanize_music: How to humanize musical rhythms? With audio examples and links to audio software plugins (Ableton Live)


How to humanize musical rhythms? With audio examples and links to audio software plugins (Ableton Live) - GitHub - holgerhennig/humanize_music: How to humanize musical rhythms? With audio examples ...




github.com





And audio examples from the github:


Group-Humanizing: Bass and drum are communicating as if two musicians played in the same room, their interbeat intervals are long-range cross-corr\elated (standard deviation 10 ms). See file in downloads/group_humanizing/mp3/AudioExample1_MusicalCoupling_BillieJean.mp3

View attachment downloads_group_humanizing_mp3_AudioExample1_MusicalCoupling_BillieJean.mp3

Humanizing: Bass and drum are not communicating, as if two musicians were recorded playing in separate rooms (standard deviation 10 ms). See file in downloads/group_humanizing/mp3/AudioExample2_Humanizing_BillieJean.mp3

View attachment downloads_group_humanizing_mp3_AudioExample2_Humanizing_BillieJean.mp3

Randomizing: Uncorrelated (white noise) deviations are added to the beats of drum and bass who are not communicating, as currently implemented in professional audio software (standard deviation 10 ms). See file in downloads/group_humanizing/mp3/AudioExample3_Randomizing_BillieJean.mp3

View attachment downloads_group_humanizing_mp3_AudioExample3_Randomizing_BillieJean.mp3


----------



## liquidlino

liquidlino said:


> If talking about humanization (the vibrato discussion), there's a whole world of humanization out there that could come into play.
> 
> James Holden, a trance/electronica producer, explored humanization in depth a while back, and co-developed a set of Max4Live plugins. Essentially based on a research paper that explored how real life players interact with each other during performances to adjust timing and feel in response to each other.
> 
> I see this could be applied to ensemble forming instruments, and across whole orchestrations. It's clear the musical coupling example below is far more musical and realistic than the random humanizations in examples 2 and 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Download James Holden's Group Humanizer patch
> 
> 
> James Holdens’ Group Humanizer is a new Max for Live patch that uses the nuance of human timing errors to add an organic, realistic groove to your productions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ableton.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GitHub - holgerhennig/humanize_music: How to humanize musical rhythms? With audio examples and links to audio software plugins (Ableton Live)
> 
> 
> How to humanize musical rhythms? With audio examples and links to audio software plugins (Ableton Live) - GitHub - holgerhennig/humanize_music: How to humanize musical rhythms? With audio examples ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> github.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And audio examples from the github:
> 
> 
> Group-Humanizing: Bass and drum are communicating as if two musicians played in the same room, their interbeat intervals are long-range cross-corr\elated (standard deviation 10 ms). See file in downloads/group_humanizing/mp3/AudioExample1_MusicalCoupling_BillieJean.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_group_humanizing_mp3_AudioExample1_MusicalCoupling_BillieJean.mp3
> 
> Humanizing: Bass and drum are not communicating, as if two musicians were recorded playing in separate rooms (standard deviation 10 ms). See file in downloads/group_humanizing/mp3/AudioExample2_Humanizing_BillieJean.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_group_humanizing_mp3_AudioExample2_Humanizing_BillieJean.mp3
> 
> Randomizing: Uncorrelated (white noise) deviations are added to the beats of drum and bass who are not communicating, as currently implemented in professional audio software (standard deviation 10 ms). See file in downloads/group_humanizing/mp3/AudioExample3_Randomizing_BillieJean.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_group_humanizing_mp3_AudioExample3_Randomizing_BillieJean.mp3


More examples from the github:

J.S. Bach, Invention no.1 in C major, BWV 772​




1/f humanizing (standard deviation s=11 ms). See file in downloads/bach_invention1/mp3/invention1_a1_s11.mp3

View attachment downloads_bach_invention1_mp3_invention1_a1_s11.mp3

white noise humanizing (s=11 ms). See file in downloads/bach_invention1/mp3/invention1_a0_s11.mp3

View attachment downloads_bach_invention1_mp3_invention1_a0_s11.mp3

exact. See file in downloads/bach_invention1/mp3/invention1_e.mp3

View attachment downloads_bach_invention1_mp3_invention1_e.mp3

J.S. Bach, Prelude no. 2 in C minor (Well-tempered Clavier Vol. II, BWV 871)​



In this piece the first part shall be repeated once, note that due to the fluctuations added while humanizing, each line is unique, i.e. the repetition is not an exact repetition of the first part in case of the humanized pieces.


1/f humanizing (s=10.5 ms). See file in downloads/bach_prelude2/mp3/prelude2_a1_s10.5.mp3

View attachment downloads_bach_prelude2_mp3_prelude2_a1_s10.5.mp3

white noise humanizing (s=10.5 ms). See file in downloads/bach_prelude2/mp3/prelude2_a0_s10.5.mp3

View attachment downloads_bach_prelude2_mp3_prelude2_a0_s10.5.mp3

exact. See file in downloads/bach_prelude2/mp3/prelude2_e.mp3

View attachment downloads_bach_prelude2_mp3_prelude2_e.mp3


----------



## Wendolinny

Regarding synced vibrato: If you set the Vibrato Rate sliders to the same value, you get this (4 trumpets, max. Vibrato Depth, same Vibrato Rate for all):
View attachment IB-1.6-4trp-sync-vib-test.mp3

Especially the last two sound pretty much synced up to me. So I guess, a slider in the ensemble patches that controls the amount of individual player randomization would do the trick. You could set the slider to zero and get this, or higher and get the default chaotic string section behaviour. (I bet Aaron already thought of that and will add a page of sliders to control every aspect of individual player randomization.)


----------



## Woodie1972

I think when a section adds synced vibrato, it will start to sound like a cheap sampled group, like those old synths back in the days. String players in an orchestra will not apply the exact same amount of vibrato, start perfectly at the same time (or stop), which is also the reason why it sounds so great. 
Sometimes it may work for a big band section, f.e. saxes, to match vibrato, but for strings this is something totally different.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Woah, this was a lot more controversial than I thought.



duringtheafter said:


> May I ask WHY you would want this? In what (real world) universe are multiple players in a Violin section in perfect sync, down to the rate of their vibrato? (And wouldn't the current IB/IW method of setting a vibrato rate and depth achieve this already, if the rate/depth values are identical and the notes start at exactly the same time?)


Never said perfect sync. I agree that would sound bad. There is a difference between an LFO that is free to drift as it wants and at times will randomly line up with the other players, and an LFO that drifts by continually trying to find its way back to the base value/base shape meaning it basically just drifts around a set sine but that sines timing and phase never changes. It's hard to explain, I feel very inclined to make diagrams and drawings to explain what I'm trying to say.

I think the current method used in IB/IW is that the vibrato just drifts and never tries to find its way back to the base value. The problem is that the note starts almost never line up perfectly.

A more unified and synced vibrato would give a stronger sense of the amplitude fluctuation and a more defined vibrato, while a completely out-of-sync vibrato would give a thicker and warmer sound. This is when used in a specific section. I would guess it also occurs across sections, like in a quartet. Of course, most other components of the vibrato would still be random and "un-synced" like pitch, noise, etc, because without most of this, you won't get the ensemble sound.



shawnsingh said:


> Ah, OK... I remember reading this from SM Strings manual. I did not try this feature yet.
> 
> With the disclaimer that I haven't tried the feature yet, my impression is that this is one possible way to model the "individual threads of a few players that stick out from the ensemble sometimes" that can greatly add to the perception of expression and detail of a performance - something that general xfading libraries are usually missing unless that bake "too much" expressiveness into the samples that it's hard to perform with it. I don't think the manual's description ever claimed that players themselves would try to line up their vibrato oscillations, but that it may happen by coincidence just by the nature of how vibrato might be performed similarly in many cases. Worth noting, there's also a similar effect with humanizing other performance details - detune and subsequent tuning effects, note change timing inaccuracies, bow change or bow crunch timing inaccuracies. I hope all such inaccuracies could be modeled in IS and, to a degree, maybe even user-controlled... but I also don't have a good feel for how important they'd be, either. Part of me wonders if these effects are better realized by performing 3 different groups of strings players separately, just like performing individual brass players in IB.
> 
> In any case, I also have SampleModeling strings so I'll see if I can try it some time soon to understand it, and will report back =)


Like Bollen said, you should try it. It makes quite a difference. I've heard this phenomenon in music all over, but it might just have been happy accidents, and to be honest, I have no tracks ready to go where this effect is very prominent.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

For those that are visual learners, this might help. It could even be the way Infinite already does things, but would be nice to be able to control how far the vibrato can drift, and as stated earlier, a way to sync the base sine position across multiple instances of instruments.

Firstly, we have the synchronous concept where the sine always finds its way back to the original base shape, and when it overlaps, it's in sync.





Secondly, we have the asynchronous concept where it starts off from same base value but it never tries to get back to it, it just keeps drifting and drifting until it randomly syncs up and then keeps drifting again.





Of course, this effect could be faked in a section by having the First Chair or a Solo be just a bit louder than the rest of the section. That would make it so that their vibrato would be the more prominent one. By no means a perfect solution, but it would help get the same effect. Although, this solution won't work for quartets or across sections.


----------



## liquidlino

liquidlino said:


> More examples from the github:
> 
> J.S. Bach, Invention no.1 in C major, BWV 772​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1/f humanizing (standard deviation s=11 ms). See file in downloads/bach_invention1/mp3/invention1_a1_s11.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_bach_invention1_mp3_invention1_a1_s11.mp3
> 
> white noise humanizing (s=11 ms). See file in downloads/bach_invention1/mp3/invention1_a0_s11.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_bach_invention1_mp3_invention1_a0_s11.mp3
> 
> exact. See file in downloads/bach_invention1/mp3/invention1_e.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_bach_invention1_mp3_invention1_e.mp3
> 
> J.S. Bach, Prelude no. 2 in C minor (Well-tempered Clavier Vol. II, BWV 871)​
> 
> 
> 
> In this piece the first part shall be repeated once, note that due to the fluctuations added while humanizing, each line is unique, i.e. the repetition is not an exact repetition of the first part in case of the humanized pieces.
> 
> 
> 1/f humanizing (s=10.5 ms). See file in downloads/bach_prelude2/mp3/prelude2_a1_s10.5.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_bach_prelude2_mp3_prelude2_a1_s10.5.mp3
> 
> white noise humanizing (s=10.5 ms). See file in downloads/bach_prelude2/mp3/prelude2_a0_s10.5.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_bach_prelude2_mp3_prelude2_a0_s10.5.mp3
> 
> exact. See file in downloads/bach_prelude2/mp3/prelude2_e.mp3
> 
> View attachment downloads_bach_prelude2_mp3_prelude2_e.mp3


And I can't resist posting an example of what james creates with this, just phenomenal music. Mix of live players and synths and drummer.


----------



## Tanarri

doctoremmet said:


> Does this sound weird to you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weirder than other sample based libraries? Honest question. I quite like the sound of both examples but am completely unsure if I can trust my ears at this point. Which is likely why I utterly fail tests like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway. I fully trust Aaron to release something that is highly playable and that will raise the bar for “semi modelled” heavily scripted sample-based string libraries. For people with my ears it will likely be a hit



Eeeh. Like... the basses in the LotR piece sound weirdly flat. It all sounds too clinical to me there.



jaf518 said:


> From the FAQ on aaronventure.com:
> 
> _"Infinite Strings will feature section patches with scalable section sizes and true auto-divisi. Also, all 60 standard instruments will also be available as individual patches, each one with access to all string section positions in each space—these will be more useful for smaller sections where details matter. There will also be 5 separate “First Chair” patches. Electric strings will be released in an update post-launch."_


60? So it really is gonna be sections made out of solo instruments? Hm...


----------



## Lord Daknight

Hey guys I found infinite strings somewhere in Southern India!


----------



## Jamus

Lambchops said:


> Thanks. Will try this. (See other reply also).
> I found myself getting better results pushing the mod wheel toward the end of a phrase to accent the final note but so easy to over do it.


I think the important thing to keep in mind with Infinite is that above somewhere around 100 on the dynamics is the point where your player is getting pink in the face. I personally lower the dynamic range slider on IW and IB so that the quietest dynamic isn't so quiet. I'm not entirely sure any wind instrument can physically handle that. I sort of copy the dynamic ranges from the OT Berlin series 👍


----------



## Salohcin894

duringtheafter said:


> Absolutely can do it. I'll link you to a post of mine on another thread that addresses this exact trepidation and my relief / delight on buying both IB and IW:
> Post in thread 'Infinite Brass for non keyboard player' https://vi-control.net/community/threads/infinite-brass-for-non-keyboard-player.111721/post-4865215
> 
> That whole thread might be of interest too.


Thank you, that really did address all my fears  Now to wait for a sale or get an educational discount?


----------



## Lambchops

Jamus said:


> I think the important thing to keep in mind with Infinite is that above somewhere around 100 on the dynamics is the point where your player is getting pink in the face. I personally lower the dynamic range slider on IW and IB so that the quietest dynamic isn't so quiet. I'm not entirely sure any wind instrument can physically handle that. I sort of copy the dynamic ranges from the OT Berlin series 👍


Yes good idea. Actually a warmer sound would be good I’m thinking


----------



## Russell Anderson

Two things: synced vibrato isn't necessarily sample-exclusive. Orchestras do do it. It might be more of a woodwind player thing, especially oboe + flute soli or for two oboes or flutes for instance. For a whole string section, it's not the same, but I would be surprised if it wasn't like @Jonathan Moray is saying, at least to some extent. There is a mutual sense of pulse, and phrasing does involve the way the vibrato is executed. It would be good to hear from some players playing in ensembles like Berlin Phil or something, to hear how much each of them are thinking about this kind of thing (probably even there, some more than others haha)

I mean we do it when we walk and our footsteps begin to match pace, menstrual cycles align given enough time... this kind of thing happens everywhere. Does it need to be built into Infinite Series? I'll leave that up to Aaron

Secondly, @liquidlino , props. James Holden was one of my favorite spotify finds around two years ago, surprised to hear him mentioned here. Rannoch Dawn was what got me!


----------



## liquidlino

Russell Anderson said:


> Two things: synced vibrato isn't sample-exclusive. Orchestras do do it. Typically it's more of a woodwind player thing, especially oboe + flute soli or for two oboes or flutes for instance. For a whole string section, it's not the same, but I would be surprised if it wasn't like @Jonathan Moray is saying, at least to some extent. There is a mutual sense of pulse, and the phrasing can definitely involve the way the vibrato is executed. It would be good to hear from some players playing in ensembles like Berlin Phil or something, to hear how much each of them are thinking about this kind of thing (probably even there, some more than others haha)
> 
> I mean we do it when we walk and our footsteps begin to match pace, menstrual cycles align given enough time... this kind of thing happens everywhere. Does it need to be built into Infinite Series? I'll leave that up to Aaron
> 
> Secondly, @liquidlino , props. James Holden was one of my favorite spotify finds around two years ago, surprised to hear him mentioned here. Rannoch Dawn was what got me!


Don't get me started. Two years ago is about when I discovered and went down the James Holden rabbit hole. My inital find was Lump. And then the rest of that EP (10101 and the rest of The Idiots are Winning). Then I watched a video where he was interviewed by I think Future Music, and he went into depth about how he spent ages bending the circuits of a cheap keyboard to make all the sounds on that record. Then I discovered The Inheritors. That was literally the moment when I decided I wanted to make music again... I remember sitting in my car and listening to the whole album end to end, it's incredible and transcendant is not overstating the impact it has had on me.


----------



## Tanarri

So, when's the next Kontakt update sale? 1st of June 2023?


----------



## gedlig

Tanarri said:


> So, when's the next Kontakt update sale? 1st of June 2023?


There's most definitely a possibility of it happening at some point.


----------



## ModalRealist

I’d take Infinite Twine at this point.

P.S. Started working on a new project today and I was re-amazed at how frickin’ good IW and IB are.


----------



## Russell Anderson

liquidlino said:


> Don't get me started. Two years ago is about when I discovered and went down the James Holden rabbit hole. My inital find was Lump. And then the rest of that EP (10101 and the rest of The Idiots are Winning). Then I watched a video where he was interviewed by I think Future Music, and he went into depth about how he spent ages bending the circuits of a cheap keyboard to make all the sounds on that record. Then I discovered The Inheritors. That was literally the moment when I decided I wanted to make music again... I remember sitting in my car and listening to the whole album end to end, it's incredible and transcendant is not overstating the impact it has had on me.


It was pretty transformative for me, too! Although James Holden for me played more a role in being part of a lot of music discovery that helped me a whole lot in finding the sound I wanted to work on in my own time. Artists like him and Vessel and and a number of others... a lot of others. I was trying to listen to as much as possible for a bit, I really ought to get back to that! There's nothing like finding a really good song, or a really good artist! It was around the same time I discovered Jacob Collier, also (maybe that was 3 years ago?), and he was probably the biggest kick in my ass to get me out of my depressing computer chair and much more intently pursuing music.

@Tanarri are you wondering about K7 due to... ...tell me the update to 7 has nothing to do with the Infinite libraries, right?

Right?


----------



## Tanarri

Russell Anderson said:


> @Tanarri are you wondering about K7 due to... ...tell me the update to 7 has nothing to do with the Infinite libraries, right?
> 
> Right?


😁 😅 😵‍💫


The wizard has spoken, K5 won't be enough and K6 is already obsolete at NI.


----------



## shawnsingh

This is definitely the calm before the storm...


----------



## DANIELE

shawnsingh said:


> This is definitely the calm before the storm...


You mean the change from 2022 to 2023 on the official site, don't you?


----------



## Lambchops

DANIELE said:


> You mean the change from 2022 to 2023 on the official site, don't you?


----------



## shawnsingh

DANIELE said:


> You mean the change from 2022 to 2023 on the official site, don't you?


I just got Infinite-rolled again...


----------



## Russell Anderson

Tanarri said:


> 😁 😅 😵‍💫
> 
> 
> The wizard has spoken, K5 won't be enough and K6 is already obsolete at NI.


AAaaah, yeah. Maybe there are some 6 licenses floating around? Or 6 upgrades? Otherwise, yeah :( I feel like Black Friday or Summer are usually always.... maybe the summer one is the update?

I don't want to disappoint or give false hope, I just forget


----------



## shawnsingh

Here's a question to while the time away. Which (if any) other libraries do you like combining in conjunction with infinite brass and with infinite woodwinds? Any interesting details about how you layer or combine them and why you like it?

I was previously combining with OT. But it ended up being all Infinite brass and winds with only berlin strings and percussion.

I've had some nostalgia to how much I loved EWQL hollywood orchestra combined with OT. Thinking of getting the Opus version to match with Bersa. Any thoughts?


----------



## agaland

I don't own Infinite Woodwinds, but in terms of brass, I found that blending IB with Cinematic Studio Brass gave me a pretty balanced and realistic sound, which blends well within the orchestral mix. Of course, you can't just copy/paste the parts you've recorded with IB to CSB, so there's quite some edit work to do on CSB in order to match what has been played with IB, but then you get a nice result. CSB gives you the "fatness" that IB lacks if used alone (in the mix).
I guess it would also be true with other libraries, but I'm just sharing my own experience with both IB + CSB.


----------



## Trash Panda

shawnsingh said:


> Here's a question to while the time away. Which (if any) other libraries do you like combining in conjunction with infinite brass and with infinite woodwinds? Any interesting details about how you layer or combine them and why you like it?
> 
> I was previously combining with OT. But it ended up being all Infinite brass and winds with only berlin strings and percussion.
> 
> I've had some nostalgia to how much I loved EWQL hollywood orchestra combined with OT. Thinking of getting the Opus version to match with Bersa. Any thoughts?


*For a drier, studio-like sound:*
I like to take Infinite Brass and WW with Mozarteum and reduce the late reflections of the IR to 50% time and combine them with relatively dry libraries like Tokyo Scoring Strings or Audio Imperia libraries. Using Mozarteum with a reduced IR time helps sit the woodwinds and brass further back believably and still sound like they're a studio-like environment. The Studio and Bersa IRs just sound _waaaay_ too close without resorting to psychoacoustic trickery to push them back. Even then, I still feel like I have to drown everything in a unifying reverb which works against the entire concept of a dry studio sound and- _*We are sorry, this poster has temporarily gone offline. Please wait while they reboot their systems*._

Percussion I worry less about because percussion typically sounds better with more space and reverb tail, but it's usually CinePerc for a drier sound, Damage 2 and Audio Imperia Cerberus.

*Scoring stage or concert hall sound:*
Teldex - This is pretty straight forward. Everything goes into the studio IR, soloist position, mixed mic 1 and fed into MIR using the Teldex room for positioning, depth and adding the sense of the room. 

AIR - Same as above with Teldex, but use Pernegg Monestary with the IR length reduced by about 40%-60%.

Abbey Road One - Same as above with Teldex, but use The Sage Hall One.

Sony/MGM - Haven't tested thoroughly yet, but I imagine the same as above with either Synchron Stage or NRF Hall would do the trick if Teldex does not.

With most of these instances, I'm primarily using the library from that room (Berlin/Arks/THB, AROOF or CineSymphony) and using Infinite to fill in gaps in performance, instrument lineup or do soloist work.

Speaking of soloist work or layering with libraries from the room on any of the above, using Mozarteum and playing with the various mix mic options and positions to match the library is perfectly suitable.


----------



## shawnsingh

Great info for a variety of venues, thanks. I think Hollywood is particularly unique (Gold in particular with mid mics) in that it is very rich with dense early reflections. In some ways I think that might have helped mask potential phase issues in their editing, which plague some of the other in-situ room-sampled libraries. I don't know how much phasing or feeling of early reflections there is in the diamond version.

In any case, that made it really hard previously to match that library to any dry libraries. I'm not sure if it will be easier or just as hard for IB.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I just recently bought precedence and breeze to use with infinite and csw. Anyone Elsie using it here? So far I like how I can push the brass back just a little bit more it seems to really be helping me


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I just recently bought precedence and breeze to use with infinite and csw. Anyone Elsie using it here? So far I like how I can push the brass back just a little bit more it seems to really be helping me


I use P+B but not CSW.


----------



## sound team apk

I tend to prefer Infinite's own IRs to MIR Teldex, at least for some instruments. But I find that Mozarteum isn't that hard to blend with Teldex or Synchron, particularly with mic mix 4 or 5 (which is what I usually use anyway). I've never tried to blend with AIR. In that case I might be more inclined to use MIR.

I will definitely want to try @Trash Panda's suggestion to shorten Mozarteum 50% rather than use the studio IRs. In some projects I've ended up using Proximity with the studio IRs, which feels like a hack.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Is this shortening of the impulse responses done inside of the Kontakt instrument editing view? Or am I missing something doable on the UI?


----------



## Trash Panda

Russell Anderson said:


> Is this shortening of the impulse responses done inside of the Kontakt instrument editing view? Or am I missing something doable on the UI?


You have to open the wrench to do it and locate the correct instance of the IR.


----------



## Duncan Formosa

Thought I'd post this short mockup I done on my revised template using IB and IW. I'm very pleased how this turned out!


----------



## StormBlåst

Hi!

I just finished my very first Symphony!
I only used IW for woodwinds and IB for Brass.
These libraries are just amazing! The more I use them, the more I realize how much they can do. It's just crazy to think example that how idiomatic and often trills are used in orchestral content and how many libraries are lacking actual playable trills. But not IW and IB thank god! 


The piece itself was a huge challenge and experiment, and a lot of tedious work, but now it's finally finished!


----------



## Juulu

Plan on uploading the whole piece (all 20 seconds of it hehe) to my soundcloud later but I mocked up the 20th century logo for fun! Here's the dry stem of just the brass. IB is really good at this fanfare type of thing.

View attachment 20th Century Fox Logo Mockup Brass.mp3


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Question:
Anyone here using Infinite with the new Berlin Studio plugin???? Seems like it might be a cool combo.


----------



## RogiervG

StormBlåst said:


> Hi!
> 
> I just finished my very first Symphony!
> I only used IW for woodwinds and IB for Brass.
> These libraries are just amazing! The more I use them, the more I realize how much they can do. It's just crazy to think example that how idiomatic and often trills are used in orchestral content and how many libraries are lacking actual playable trills. But not IW and IB thank god!
> 
> 
> The piece itself was a huge challenge and experiment, and a lot of tedious work, but now it's finally finished!



what did you use for the strings?


----------



## StormBlåst

RogiervG said:


> what did you use for the strings?


I used a blend of Cinematic Studio Strings(1.7), and Spitfire Symphonic strings.
I felt like the CSS short notes were too clean and clinical so blending them with Symphonic strings made it more massive and aggressive at the same time. And those are the only string libraries I have so I thought why not try to layer those


----------



## duringtheafter

Duncan Formosa said:


> Thought I'd post this short mockup I done on my revised template using IB and IW. I'm very pleased how this turned out!



I like where this sound is headed. If you'd welcome some constructive criticism: you might take a look/listen to how some of the melody notes are being played. It sounds like in the trumpets (especially), each note has the same (or very similar) mini-crescendo, which creates a repetition effect that sounds more like someone dialing the volume up and down rather than a section of players leaning into each note. If you like that style, perhaps mix it up a bit so it's not so same-y on each note and/or remove it from some of the shorter notes (half notes) in the melody to give a bit more consistency. Or try a faster "Hump" in the curve at the beginning and add a slow and slight downward tail. 

Also when the horns take the melody in the middle part, the attacks sort of just "start" rather than being defined.
You have some great punch to the trombones "answering" the strings - perhaps a bit more of that "oomph" in the melody for the horns. The recordings of the piece are all pretty aggressive - almost deliberately over the top - in the brass!


----------



## Juulu

Also, here's something from a personal project that I'm working on, trying to build up my orchestration chops. I just know this would be very time-consuming for me if I didn't have infinite haha.
Infinite soloed
View attachment Without Mercy Brass.mp3

In context
View attachment Without Mercy.mp3


Not exactly sure where I'm going with this piece but I'm having fun regardless.


----------



## Mike Stone

Juulu said:


> Also, here's something from a personal project that I'm working on, trying to build up my orchestration chops. I just know this would be very time-consuming for me if I didn't have infinite haha.
> Infinite soloed
> View attachment Without Mercy Brass.mp3
> 
> In context
> View attachment Without Mercy.mp3
> 
> 
> Not exactly sure where I'm going with this piece but I'm having fun regardless.


Sounds great, very interesting composition so far! You can really go far with such a flexible and playable library like Infinite Brass (and Woodwinds). Very excited for what the updates will bring, in terms of improved sound/realism and new functions.


----------



## blaggins

Cool piece @Juulu, could easily belong in a Star Wars video game I think. I would enjoy hearing the finished version when it's done!


----------



## ibanez1

Every post that goes by just makes me impatient to see a sale on the bundle this black friday. These orchestrations using infinite are amazing. Great job @Juulu!


----------



## Duncan Formosa

duringtheafter said:


> I like where this sound is headed. If you'd welcome some constructive criticism: you might take a look/listen to how some of the melody notes are being played. It sounds like in the trumpets (especially), each note has the same (or very similar) mini-crescendo, which creates a repetition effect that sounds more like someone dialing the volume up and down rather than a section of players leaning into each note. If you like that style, perhaps mix it up a bit so it's not so same-y on each note and/or remove it from some of the shorter notes (half notes) in the melody to give a bit more consistency. Or try a faster "Hump" in the curve at the beginning and add a slow and slight downward tail.


Hey, I apppreciate the feedback!

I agree about the crescendos, couldn't figure out why they didn't sound right but I think you're right, it will be the cc curves are exactly the same which isn't natural. I'm running everything through divisimate so I wonder if increasing the cc timing and value slider in that might help it a bit when I'm recording. I'm not a big fan of editing the curves by hand. The other option would be to re-record those parts individually.



duringtheafter said:


> Also when the horns take the melody in the middle part, the attacks sort of just "start" rather than being defined.


Which parts in particular? Could be the velocity is too hard on those parts?



duringtheafter said:


> You have some great punch to the trombones "answering" the strings - perhaps a bit more of that "oomph" in the melody for the horns. The recordings of the piece are all pretty aggressive - almost deliberately over the top - in the brass!


I'll have a play with this, my worry was that I may push the instruments too far to the point where they start to sound synth like as I've seen a few demos that do that. Plus there was some advice I heard about not pushing the modwheel too far until you are looking for a really big moment cause if you push it to high to early you have nowhere else to go since you've peaked. I'll have another play around though, I might be able to figure out a nice balance.


----------



## Trash Panda

Trash Panda said:


> Spectre in action on tenor bones a3. Mozarteum in standard position, pitch accuracy turned way down across the board.
> 
> Spectre Off:
> View attachment IF Spectre Test (OFF).mp3
> 
> 
> Spectre On with the settings below:
> View attachment IF Spectre Test (ON).mp3


Hey, Infinite Fam. If you need some more beef in your brass, a little more woo in your woodwinds, or a little more hiss in your strung out patience for strings, Spectre is 50% off.






Spectre | The ultimate enhancer | Audio plugin







www.wavesfactory.com


----------



## pierrevigneron

Good embelish sound ! Maybe too bass in orchestral mixing context... I have waves vitamine and quadrafuzz (stock plugin in cubase) witch can probably allow to obtain the same sound. Do you have this one guys ? How does it campares whith spectral ?


----------



## Jorf88

Trash Panda said:


> Hey, Infinite Fam. If you need some more beef in your brass, a little more woo in your woodwinds, or a little more hiss in your strung out patience for strings, Spectre is 50% off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spectre | The ultimate enhancer | Audio plugin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wavesfactory.com


I had forgotten that you put this on my wishlist...
Welp, that's the start of my holiday shopping.
I'd advise everyone else that owns AV stuff to check this thing out. There's a demo!
I only spent about 30 minutes working with it on lunch break to realize that I absolutely wanted it.
I tried to emulate doing this with other saturation/distortion plugins using emphasis+deemphasis EQs and stuff, and had some decent results (which I'd saved in my template). In that 30 minutes I spent messing with the demo of Spectre, I got results that I liked better than what I'd spent a dozen hours on for my bones, horns, and trumpets. 

I own it now, so the tinkering will continue later. Thanks Trash Panda!


----------



## Luka

Jorf88 said:


> I had forgotten that you put this on my wishlist...
> Welp, that's the start of my holiday shopping.
> I'd advise everyone else that owns AV stuff to check this thing out. There's a demo!
> I only spent about 30 minutes working with it on lunch break to realize that I absolutely wanted it.
> I tried to emulate doing this with other saturation/distortion plugins using emphasis+deemphasis EQs and stuff, and had some decent results (which I'd saved in my template). In that 30 minutes I spent messing with the demo of Spectre, I got results that I liked better than what I'd spent a dozen hours on for my bones, horns, and trumpets.
> 
> I own it now, so the tinkering will continue later. Thanks Trash Panda!


Could you show a quick example of what it can do before / after Spectre was used on Infinite Brass?


----------



## Trash Panda

Luka said:


> Could you show a quick example of what it can do before / after Spectre was used on Infinite Brass?


I have an example above that beefs up the tenor trombones low end along the lines of the AXML mics from JXL Brass (highly loved for its trombones).

For example's sake, below is a ludicrous low brass setup (3 Cimbassi, 2 Tubas, 2 Euphoniums, 3 Contrabass Trombones, 3 Bass Trombones playing in unison) in the Studio space. In Pro Q3 and Spectre there is a +6 dB low shelf at 0.7 Q at 120 Hz and a +6 dB 0.7 bell at 120 Hz. 

In Spectre, the saturation is set to Subtle mode, Tape algorithm, 50% mix and de-emphasis EQ is applied to cancel out the EQ boost, so you're only hearing the effect of the saturation added. Turning off the de-emphasis EQ and changing the mode from Subtle to Medium or Aggressive would further push the effect.

Yes, it's an extreme example, but it illustrates the difference quite well IMO. There's also the added bonus of the harmonics created making the bass sound more present on small speakers/phones.

Stock:
View attachment AV Low Brass (Dry).mp3


Pro Q3:
View attachment AV Low Brass (Pro Q3).mp3


Spectre (Subtle, De-Emphasis EQ on):
View attachment AV Low Brass (Spectre).mp3


Spectre (Aggressive, De-Emphasis EQ on):
View attachment AV Low Brass (Spectre Aggressive).mp3


----------



## duringtheafter

Trash Panda said:


> I have an example above that beefs up the tenor trombones low end along the lines of the AXML mics from JXL Brass (highly loved for its trombones).
> 
> For example's sake, below is a ludicrous low brass setup (3 Cimbassi, 2 Tubas, 2 Euphoniums, 3 Contrabass Trombones, 3 Bass Trombones playing in unison) in the Studio space. In Pro Q3 and Spectre there is a +6 dB low shelf at 0.7 Q at 120 Hz and a +6 dB 0.7 bell at 120 Hz.
> 
> In Spectre, the saturation is set to Subtle mode, Tape algorithm, 50% mix and de-emphasis EQ is applied to cancel out the EQ boost, so you're only hearing the effect of the saturation added. Turning off the de-emphasis EQ and changing the mode from Subtle to Medium or Aggressive would further push the effect.
> 
> Yes, it's an extreme example, but it illustrates the difference quite well IMO. There's also the added bonus of the harmonics created making the bass sound more present on small speakers/phones.
> 
> Stock:
> View attachment AV Low Brass (Dry).mp3
> 
> 
> Pro Q3:
> View attachment AV Low Brass (Pro Q3).mp3
> 
> 
> Spectre (Subtle, De-Emphasis EQ on):
> View attachment AV Low Brass (Spectre).mp3
> 
> 
> Spectre (Aggressive, De-Emphasis EQ on):
> View attachment AV Low Brass (Spectre Aggressive).mp3


Huh. To my ears, the Stock sounds the most like a low brass section. The further down the audio list we go, the more it starts to sound like an over-amplified string bass section.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Luka said:


> Could you show a quick example of what it can do before / after Spectre was used on Infinite Brass?





duringtheafter said:


> Huh. To my ears, the Stock sounds the most like a low brass section. The further down the audio list we go, the more it starts to sound like an over-amplified string bass section.


It's supposed to be used very sparingly and just creates a subtle difference. We (the people in this thread) had a conversation about this some way back. Here are the relevant posts from me. There are other posts by others that you could find useful. I have some demos in one of my posts but they are not done with Spectre but with another saturator. Spectre does the same just with much more control over specific frequencies and the different types of saturation you can choose from.






Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


The old "Attack Accuracy" & the new "Pitch Accuracy" does the same thing, basically, only that the newer version affects pitch during sustains much more. If you only want the attack portion to be affected, lower the Pitch Accuracy after the attack to get a more stable sustain but still have a...




vi-control.net










Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


The old "Attack Accuracy" & the new "Pitch Accuracy" does the same thing, basically, only that the newer version affects pitch during sustains much more. If you only want the attack portion to be affected, lower the Pitch Accuracy after the attack to get a more stable sustain but still have a...




vi-control.net


----------



## Trash Panda

duringtheafter said:


> Huh. To my ears, the Stock sounds the most like a low brass section. The further down the audio list we go, the more it starts to sound like an over-amplified string bass section.


As I said, I _exaggerated _the effect to show what it does and provide a comparison versus simple EQ.


----------



## doctoremmet

Trash Panda said:


> As I said, I _exaggerated _the effect to show what it does and provide a comparison versus simple EQ.


Thanks for the example and the heads-up earlier about the Spectre sale. It is my first BF purchase and my early experiences are great. Good tip, much appreciated.


----------



## blaggins

Is there anything that Spectre can do that Volcano cannot?


----------



## Markrs

Whilst not in the same league as Spectre I did wonder if the Hornet Total EQ could do something similar as it is a dynamic parametric EQ with saturation added?


----------



## Russell Anderson

@Markrs Spectre is a little special. More akin to saturated parallel bands being mixed in with the dry signal. May or may not use polarity inversion to isolate the wet signal. You can, though, setup a spectre yourself with routing.

@blaggins I haven't tried Volcano but I assume there's overlap.

I like Spectre but I sold mine since I never used it. When I remembered to, I liked it, but I also liked Saturn and used it more often since I had more uses for it / I also really strongly prefer continuous control over L/R and M/S... Which Spectre doesn't offer at the moment. Saturn (possibly Volcano) does. But the saturation sounded good, and the de-emphasis mode was really cool. Being able to layer multiple bands in the same location can be good, too.


----------



## Tanarri

I tried Waves' MaxxBass and RenBass, but Spectre gave me good results for beefier IB faster.
It's also very CPU friendly and you don't have to over-sample it when using it just for the lower frequencies.

Just a small note, but when you listen to things like Battle Beyond the Start, old Total Recall or Indiana Jones, the brass sounds more like IB out of the box, rather than the saturated versions we post here using various plugins. When the sound is really thick, it's because of the orchestration. Tuba under Bones, etc. But IB + Spectre does sound very nice!

May I also add, GOD DAMN I can't wait for the strings.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I await the WW/brass updates with great anticipation

I truly have no idea what's coming


----------



## gedlig

Tanarri said:


> May I also add, GOD DAMN I can't wait for the strings.


+1 month


----------



## I like music

Russell Anderson said:


> I await the WW/brass updates with great anticipation
> 
> I truly have no idea what's coming


As excited - if not more - about these than the strings (mainly because if the strings came out I wouldn't have the money right now).


----------



## gedlig

Wagner tubas would be pog. And that one collosal tuba


----------



## pierrevigneron

Try voxengo LFPunch, to me best than renaissance bass


----------



## Tanarri

I won't be able to use the updates since I'm still on Kontakt 5. It will be rough, waiting for the Kontakt sale with the updates on the hard drive. 😬 😅


----------



## porrasm

Russell Anderson said:


> I await the WW/brass updates with great anticipation
> 
> I truly have no idea what's coming


?? There's an update coming? I haven't been following this thread for a while so this is a nice surprise!


----------



## Jorf88

aaronventure said:


> Current roadmap is Woodwinds update -> Brass update -> Strings.
> 
> The updates should happen within a short window from one another, if not simultaneously. If all goes well, Strings should follow shortly after. The updates are pretty significant. You really have no idea what's coming. I know this just stokes the flames but I'll have more to share in due time.








Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


@aaronventure just wanna say we all appreciate you talking more about everything in general idk if this is something you wanna answer but will the wind updates come out before strings or do you plan on waiting and dropping it all at once? also is it possible to have a wind updates status...




vi-control.net







porrasm said:


> ?? There's an update coming? I haven't been following this thread for a while so this is a nice surprise!


Yup. See the post above, link included.


----------



## xenos

Hi everybody. May i ask someone who own "Spectre" to make little bit demo how it sounds with Infinite instruments ? Maybe trumpets (which can sound little bit thin sometimes and need to be layer to sound more "full") or even some woodwinds. Of course I hear demos of trombones posted weeks ago and also i know that its possible to get trial version and experiment myself, but would be nice to hear some demos from somebody who have more experiance with using this with Infinite series. That would be very helpfull to pick good decision i think not only for me. Thanks


----------



## soulofsound

Juulu said:


> Also, here's something from a personal project that I'm working on, trying to build up my orchestration chops. I just know this would be very time-consuming for me if I didn't have infinite haha.
> Infinite soloed
> View attachment Without Mercy Brass.mp3
> 
> In context
> View attachment Without Mercy.mp3
> 
> 
> Not exactly sure where I'm going with this piece but I'm having fun regardless.


You need better strings, cause your brass sounds stellar.


----------



## DarkShinryu

Here's an anime cover I did using almost exclusively Infinite Brass (Bersa hall), I used Synchron Brass only at the very end.
I probably have to improve modulation on the sustains but I'm pretty happy with the short notes.
The rest of the libraries used is listed in the video description.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I like music said:


> As excited - if not more - about these than the strings (mainly because if the strings came out I wouldn't have the money right now).


I am pretty tight on money myself, but... I also have, I think, plenty of strings lol. Different story for winds! But Infinite is great and just keeps getting better


----------



## Juulu

soulofsound said:


> You need better strings, cause your brass sounds stellar.


I think you mean I need 'infinite' strings 😉. In all honesty, I'm pretty content with CSS. If IS doesn't turn out great I feel like I could rely on them even though they aren't very flexible. And thanks btw, I think they sound a little bad cause of my programming/orchestration.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Been using Infinite Brass as the main drive in yet another Scream fan score. I'd say this is the sound I'm most happiest with so far. All brass is Bersa Hall and then positioned with Precedence and Breeze. The track is unfinished, but I'm kinda happy so far!


----------



## johnmusic992648

Hello Everyone!

New to this forum, but an enormous fan of the infinite series! Figured I'd share a demo I recently made for a movement from a children's concert work of mine that was just premiered. It's not quite as "fat" as if I were writing a film cue, just because I wanted to get it as close to a live performance as possible.

Used IW, IB, BBC Strings (doubled with LASS). Then some EQ with Ozone, and IR with Altiverb. Oh, and narration by my fiance, haha.

Thoughts welcomed. Either way, very much so looking forward to Infinite Strings!


----------



## blaggins

> yet another Scream fan score


I wasn't even aware that fan scores of movies were a thing... I YouTubed around and couldn't find anything. Where do you find out about these things/discuss/share them?

Awesome piece by the way!


----------



## HereGiam

johnmusic992648 said:


> Figured I'd share a demo I recently made for a movement from a children's concert work of mine that was just premiered.


I really enjoyed that - wonderful writing. 

Great mixing between the libraries too. What did you use for percussion?


----------



## johnmusic992648

HereGiam said:


> I really enjoyed that - wonderful writing.
> 
> Great mixing between the libraries too. What did you use for percussion?


Thanks! I definitely find that using Altiverb as a send works to glue everything together. As with everything, I'm sure I can improve!

I used a mixture of CinePerc and BBC for my percussion. I like the Celeste sounds better from BBC, and a few other bits and bobs, but mostly CinePerc serves me well!

Do people really find that Precedence makes a big difference with placement? As of now, I pan all non-infinite libraries accordingly (which I know only goes so far). I actually find the Infinite stage placements to be pretty good. At this point, the only instruments I feel could use a little more depth is percussion.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

blaggins said:


> I wasn't even aware that fan scores of movies were a thing... I YouTubed around and couldn't find anything. Where do you find out about these things/discuss/share them?
> 
> Awesome piece by the way!


Honestly I’m just a huge fan of the films and Marco beltrami’s score so this was just me trying to homage it as if it were for the latest film. App for fun 😊


----------



## Trash Panda

johnmusic992648 said:


> Do people really find that Precedence makes a big difference with placement? As of now, I pan all non-infinite libraries accordingly (which I know only goes so far). I actually find the Infinite stage placements to be pretty good. At this point, the only instruments I feel could use a little more depth is percussion.


I used to, because I wanted the drier sound of Bersa or Studio, but found results were better by just using Mozarteum and shortening the tail IR length under the hood. Gets things to sit back nicely without the reverb tail buildup.


----------



## Luka

Trash Panda said:


> I used to, because I wanted the drier sound of Bersa or Studio, but found results were better by just using Mozarteum and shortening the tail IR length under the hood. Gets things to sit back nicely without the reverb tail buildup.


Where exactly do you change the tail "under the hood"?


----------



## johnmusic992648

Trash Panda said:


> I used to, because I wanted the drier sound of Bersa or Studio, but found results were better by just using Mozarteum and shortening the tail IR length under the hood. Gets things to sit back nicely without the reverb tail buildup.


Very interesting indeed, and yeah, if you wouldn't mind doing a really quick "do this, then that" I'd appreciate it. I'm sure I could figure it out through some tinkering, but knowing my luck, I'd end up needing to do a full re-install and lose all my custom snapshots, haha.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Trash Panda said:


> I used to, because I wanted the drier sound of Bersa or Studio, but found results were better by just using Mozarteum and shortening the tail IR length under the hood. Gets things to sit back nicely without the reverb tail buildup.


How do you shorten the tail in Mozarteum?


----------



## Trash Panda

johnmusic992648 said:


> Very interesting indeed, and yeah, if you wouldn't mind doing a really quick "do this, then that" I'd appreciate it. I'm sure I could figure it out through some tinkering, but knowing my luck, I'd end up needing to do a full re-install and lose all my custom snapshots, haha.


First set up your microphone and position as you normally would.

In this example, I'm just using a trumpet in its default position in Mozarteum on Mix Mic 3.

View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Standard.mp3


Open the wrench menu and find the active Convolve effect. You can hover over the IR name to see if it's the right one. In this example, it's under Insert Effects.






Next reduce the IR size under the "Late" tab in the picture above to taste. I went with 50%, which is the lowest setting for purposes of this demonstration.

View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Half Tail.mp3


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Trash Panda said:


> First set up your microphone and position as you normally would.
> 
> In this example, I'm just using a trumpet in its default position in Mozarteum on Mix Mic 3.
> 
> View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Standard.mp3
> 
> 
> Open the wrench menu and find the active Convolve effect. You can hover over the IR name to see if it's the right one. In this example, it's under Insert Effects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next reduce the IR size under the "Late" tab in the picture above to taste. I went with 50%, which is the lowest setting for purposes of this demonstration.
> 
> View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Half Tail.mp3


this is mega useful... Cheers!


----------



## johnmusic992648

Trash Panda said:


> First set up your microphone and position as you normally would.
> 
> In this example, I'm just using a trumpet in its default position in Mozarteum on Mix Mic 3.
> 
> View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Standard.mp3
> 
> 
> Open the wrench menu and find the active Convolve effect. You can hover over the IR name to see if it's the right one. In this example, it's under Insert Effects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next reduce the IR size under the "Late" tab in the picture above to taste. I went with 50%, which is the lowest setting for purposes of this demonstration.
> 
> View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Half Tail.mp3


Brilliant! Thank you!


----------



## weeeeve

StormBlåst said:


> Hi!
> 
> I just finished my very first Symphony!
> I only used IW for woodwinds and IB for Brass.
> These libraries are just amazing! The more I use them, the more I realize how much they can do. It's just crazy to think example that how idiomatic and often trills are used in orchestral content and how many libraries are lacking actual playable trills. But not IW and IB thank god!
> 
> 
> The piece itself was a huge challenge and experiment, and a lot of tedious work, but now it's finally finished!



Great job! Can't wait to hear the second symphony!

Steven


----------



## duringtheafter

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Been using Infinite Brass as the main drive in yet another Scream fan score. I'd say this is the sound I'm most happiest with so far. All brass is Bersa Hall and then positioned with Precedence and Breeze. The track is unfinished, but I'm kinda happy so far!



Parts of this, especially the beginning sections, remind me (in the best possible way) of peak Christophe Beck writing _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ scores in Seasons 2 and 3. The haunting piano at the beginning, the voice with the strings... Very much in that style, but definitely not aping it. AWESOME!!!


----------



## monochrome

this is my favourite thread in this entire forum. it's one of the only ones where people are constantly posting examples and writing music <3 you love to see it


----------



## I like music

M0rdechai said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> For someone thats looking into, you know... all this... starting to make orchestral music with plugins.. it seems that the Infinite Series gets surprisingly little attention on this forum. So much so that I'm starting to wonder if there is some post(s) that I may have missed on why this would suck...
> 
> With all the talk around - you know which library - and reading the sample talk forum regularly a lot of pro's and cons regarding 'staple template picks' have been discussed:
> 
> - does it have a bass flute (starting with the most important here)
> - price
> - loading times
> - RAM usage
> - 'sound'
> - Mutes on brass
> - Euphonium
> - Saxophones
> - Chromatic recording vs every other note (or more)
> - recording each instrument on its own vs as an ensemble
> - 'playability' of a library
> etc...
> 
> Looking at the few posts on here that mention the Infinite Series by Aaron Venture, I see almost exclusively happy users. and yet the top contenders for a 'solid alround template' on this forum seem to always be the Cinematic Studio Series, the Berlin Series and Spitfire Audio.
> And I'm not saying those aren't great. at all.. But why is there so little mention of this series?
> 
> It has every instrument recorded seperately. Includes instruments like Euphonium, bass clarinet, saxophones, etc. that other libraries wont. Recorded chromatically. Seems to be very light on performance. Seems to be consistently programmed with good legato and smooth transitions between velocities... I could go on..
> 
> So my question is; why is this mentioned so little?
> Perhaps because this is quite new and most of you guys are already set with your templates and are happy users of above mentioned libs? Is it to expensive? (I do see that it is priced higher than some, but also lower than others..)
> Am I simply not hearing that the sound is _obviously way to ...... _ (insert here)?
> Please help me understand, because I am seriously thinking about skipping all the CSS, Berlin Series and Spitifire stuff and chose this over it. Am I making a mistake?


Hey, did the thread answer your questions? :D


----------



## I like music

monochrome said:


> this is my favourite thread in this entire forum. it's one of the only ones where people are constantly posting examples and writing music <3 you love to see it


Yep. Its a good place. Mostly very happy people, some jokes, lots of examples, lots of sharing, tips and tricks, some critique (which is almost always taken in the right way). Very much an alive thread that embodies 'musicians helping musicians'


----------



## studioj

Just picked the brass up (not convinced by the sound in the wind demos at this point). Wow! the playability is just phenomenal. for anything in dynamic mf and above it just blows everything out of the water in my opinion and short experience with it. It does seem more challenging to get convincing featured quiet lines however...for now I have other tools that can do that better, more quickly, but I'm sure I still have some things to learn and look forward to digging into this collection more fully. And maybe will give more consideration to winds after the next update.


----------



## I like music

studioj said:


> Just picked the brass up (not convinced by the sound in the wind demos at this point). Wow! the playability is just phenomenal. for anything in dynamic mf and above it just blows everything out of the water in my opinion and short experience with it. It does seem more challenging to get convincing featured quiet lines however...for now I have other tools that can do that better, more quickly, but I'm sure I still have some things to learn and look forward to digging into this collection more fully. And maybe will give more consideration to winds after the next update.


One tip: with the brass (especially solo lines) definitely try more 'detached' notes than you would with other libraries, even in 'flowing/legato' passages. You can get amazing results when you step away from the "lets overlap all these notes" that sometimes sound better with other libraries.


----------



## studioj

I like music said:


> One tip: with the brass (especially solo lines) definitely try more 'detached' notes than you would with other libraries, even in 'flowing/legato' passages. You can get amazing results when you step away from the "lets overlap all these notes" that sometimes sound better with other libraries.


thx for the tip!


----------



## I like music

studioj said:


> thx for the tip!


And with those detached ones, definitely try different permutations of velocity vs mod. Makes a bigger difference than many might think at the start. Good luck, and welcome.


----------



## Juulu

studioj said:


> thx for the tip!


I would also consider lowering the dynamic range. It makes the lower dynamics more present in the mix, balancing the volume across the range without losing the timbre. I find the trombones need this the most. You might have to control expression and modulation at the same time though.


----------



## I like music

Juulu said:


> I would also consider lowering the dynamic range. It makes the lower dynamics more present in the mix, balancing the volume across the range without losing the timbre. I find the trombones need this the most. You might have to control expression and modulation at the same time though.


Yes! This is definitely excellent advice. Great feature and I use extensively for solo passages and instances where I need a 'fatter' or more regal sound come a bit louder.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

duringtheafter said:


> Parts of this, especially the beginning sections, remind me (in the best possible way) of peak Christophe Beck writing _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ scores in Seasons 2 and 3. The haunting piano at the beginning, the voice with the strings... Very much in that style, but definitely not aping it. AWESOME!!!


That is actually the theme Brian Tyler made for the 5th movie, I just switched some chords around to make it a bit happier. Thanks for the kind words 😊


----------



## johnmusic992648

I like music said:


> One tip: with the brass (especially solo lines) definitely try more 'detached' notes than you would with other libraries, even in 'flowing/legato' passages. You can get amazing results when you step away from the "lets overlap all these notes" that sometimes sound better with other libraries.


I have noticed (my ONE gripe with this series so far) that if you play brass parts "legato" they wind up behind the rest of the group - not when playing any other articulation - just the "overlapped legato." I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. Strangely, WW's don't do the same thing.

Would you suggest that placing the tiniest amount of space between them is the best way to eliminate this drag? I don't want to screw with delays on tracks etc since shorter brass articulations line up just fine.


----------



## Trash Panda

I like music said:


> some critique (which is almost always taken in the right way)


I feel attacked.


----------



## Jerner

The length of the legato is greatly affected by note velocity in Infinite. But yes, brass very often does not need to be legato and in fact sounds better playing tight without it.


----------



## M0rdechai

I like music said:


> Hey, did the thread answer your questions? :D


Ha! I'm still following this thread!

My questions where absolutely all answered! 
And the "little attention" seems to be fixed as well 😅

Never had I expected the absolute cult that would grow in this thread though 🤣
But tbh the Infinite brand seems worthy of it


----------



## gedlig

M0rdechai said:


> Ha! I'm still following this thread!
> 
> My questions where absolutely all answered!
> And the "little attention" seems to be fixed as well 😅
> 
> Never had I expected the absolute cult that would grow in this thread though 🤣
> But tbh the Infinite brand seems worthy of it


You're somewhat of a prophet here then. Bringing the Infinite Scriptures down to the foot of the hill 😅


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Hey! Here’s the finished cue. I’d say about 95% of the brass is infinite. Only used some trombone patches for the low brass layered on top but that’s it. Eq on all brass instruments and all placed with precedence and breeze. Ott on the trumpets to try and compress the highs a bit. Hornet tape on the master.


----------



## Juulu

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey! Here’s the finished cue. I’d say about 95% of the brass is infinite. Only used some trombone patches for the low brass layered on top but that’s it. Eq on all brass instruments and all placed with precedence and breeze. Ott on the trumpets to try and compress the highs a bit. Hornet tape on the master.



Awesome track! That bend @1:44 was really cool. Did you pull that off with pitch bend? Amazing work.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Juulu said:


> Awesome track! That bend @1:44 was really cool. Did you pull that off with pitch bend? Amazing work.


Thanks mate!that was the pitch bend, yeah. 😊


----------



## pierrevigneron

sorry I know this post doesn't quite belong here but you're so active and we talk about computer-assisted music: do you know why my 13GB orchestral template takes more than 7 minutes to load then, if I closes and opens again, only takes 38 seconds? I use cubase. Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700K CPU @ 4.00GHz 48Go RAM


----------



## Markrs

pierrevigneron said:


> sorry I know this post doesn't quite belong here but you're so active and we talk about computer-assisted music: do you know why my 13GB orchestral template takes more than 7 minutes to load then, if I closes and opens again, only takes 38 seconds? I use cubase. Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700K CPU @ 4.00GHz 48Go RAM


My basic understanding is computers are quite clever with RAM and even though you have closed an application or in this case template, it doesn't push it out of RAM until that RAM is needed by another application. So by closing it and then reopening it, it is basically recalling the app from RAM.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

pierrevigneron said:


> sorry I know this post doesn't quite belong here but you're so active and we talk about computer-assisted music: do you know why my 13GB orchestral template takes more than 7 minutes to load then, if I closes and opens again, only takes 38 seconds? I use cubase. Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700K CPU @ 4.00GHz 48Go RAM


That happens with me too actually


----------



## liquidlino

Also check you've excluded your samples folder from virus scanning.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

pierrevigneron said:


> sorry I know this post doesn't quite belong here but you're so active and we talk about computer-assisted music: do you know why my 13GB orchestral template takes more than 7 minutes to load then, if I closes and opens again, only takes 38 seconds? I use cubase. Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700K CPU @ 4.00GHz 48Go RAM


Have you batch-resaved all the libraries in your template? If not, you should do that. I'm not sure what it does, but I think it somehow sorts the libraries in a way that makes it easier for Kontakt to find the samples it needs and it reduces the load times by a lot.


----------



## pierrevigneron

Ok, thanks you @Jonathan Moray . Doesn't 7 minutes seem very long to you guys for a 13GB upload?


----------



## I like music

pierrevigneron said:


> Ok, thanks you @Jonathan Moray . Doesn't 7 minutes seem very long to you guys for a 13GB upload?


Mine used to take 13 minutes. Then I excluded the samples folder from Windows Defender, and it went down to 3 minutes.

Now I have a new problem which is that when I load the template it goes to 29gb, and then once Cubase is fully loaded, over the next 5 minutes it returns to about 15gb. No idea wtf Kontakt is doing but on some days, it'll kill my Cubase and on other days it'll be fine.


----------



## Markrs

pierrevigneron said:


> Ok, thanks you @Jonathan Moray . Doesn't 7 minutes seem very long to you guys for a 13GB upload?


There are probably a lot of small files that make up a template, and these even on SSD and NVMe can be slow to move from storage to memory. The DAW you use will also be doing CPU work to load it in, which will also slow it up.

I think a Kontakt batch resave is a good idea. I believe the benefit of this is that it links to the samples better, avoiding any behind the scenes searching for files or using symbolic links.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

liquidlino said:


> Also check you've excluded your samples folder from virus scanning.


How can I do that? Problem is there’s anti virus and also windows security and I’m guessing both might be doing something


----------



## liquidlino

NeonMediaKJT said:


> How can I do that? Problem is there’s anti virus and also windows security and I’m guessing both might be doing something


In windows security, go to defender settings, and in there there is a setting for "exclusions", just add the root folders wherever you store samples to this.


----------



## Øivind

NeonMediaKJT said:


> How can I do that? Problem is there’s anti virus and also windows security and I’m guessing both might be doing something


If you have any 3rd party anti-virus/malware program(s) you can uninstall these. Windows Defender which is built into Windows is more than good enough.


----------



## TomaeusD

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey! Here’s the finished cue. I’d say about 95% of the brass is infinite. Only used some trombone patches for the low brass layered on top but that’s it. Eq on all brass instruments and all placed with precedence and breeze. Ott on the trumpets to try and compress the highs a bit. Hornet tape on the master.



Nice work, Kurt. An authentic sound without overdoing certain tropes haha. It actually gives me Chamber of Secrets vibes. Can I ask which trombone patches you used and why not stick with IB? I'm still debating whether I should jump on Infinite Series.
Would also love to see a quick walkthrough of your work on Spring at some point. (I listened to 1st and 2nd place and your piece was by far superior to them both, from an unbiased perspective). I use precedence + breeze as well but I didn't think it would be necessary once I got Infinite.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

TomaeusD said:


> Nice work, Kurt. An authentic sound without overdoing certain tropes haha. It actually gives me Chamber of Secrets vibes. Can I ask which trombone patches you used and why not stick with IB? I'm still debating whether I should jump on Infinite Series.
> Would also love to see a quick walkthrough of your work on Spring at some point. (I listened to 1st and 2nd place and your piece was by far superior to them both, from an unbiased perspective). I use precedence + breeze as well but I didn't think it would be necessary once I got Infinite.


Thanks! Means a lot 😊
Trombones patches layered under were Metropolis Ark 1 which is actually what they gave me for the Spring comp haha. I only really layer the low brass sometimes for tracks like these where I want it to sound a bit more gritty, otherwise I think the cimbassi in Infinite are really good for that. Infinite is by far my most valued purchase. I never make anything without it now.

I'm not sure why, but using Precedence and Breeze on Infinite is really clicking for me. I can use the halls I want to and then if I need to push it back a bit more I can do that in Precedence. I was using Panagement 2 before that but wasn't as happy with how it sounded.


----------



## TomaeusD

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Thanks! Means a lot 😊
> Trombones patches layered under were Metropolis Ark 1 which is actually what they gave me for the Spring comp haha. I only really layer the low brass sometimes for tracks like these where I want it to sound a bit more gritty, otherwise I think the cimbassi in Infinite are really good for that. Infinite is by far my most valued purchase. I never make anything without it now.
> 
> I'm not sure why, but using Precedence and Breeze on Infinite is really clicking for me. I can use the halls I want to and then if I need to push it back a bit more I can do that in Precedence. I was using Panagement 2 before that but wasn't as happy with how it sounded.


Ah got it, makes sense! I do love what I'm hearing with IB but in a lot of demos I hear that modeled buzz. It seems to be less noticeable with more humanization, EQ and subtle layering where needed.


----------



## OstrovskyiComposer

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey! Here’s the finished cue. I’d say about 95% of the brass is infinite. Only used some trombone patches for the low brass layered on top but that’s it. Eq on all brass instruments and all placed with precedence and breeze. Ott on the trumpets to try and compress the highs a bit. Hornet tape on the master.



Awesome track! Thank you - you have revived the faith in library music that I was already starting to lose. Subscribed to your YouTube channel.


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey! Here’s the finished cue. I’d say about 95% of the brass is infinite. Only used some trombone patches for the low brass layered on top but that’s it. Eq on all brass instruments and all placed with precedence and breeze. Ott on the trumpets to try and compress the highs a bit. Hornet tape on the master.



What did you use for the woodwinds?


----------



## AudioXpression

monochrome said:


> a piece i wrote to be played while people walk through a park installation this winter :D
> 
> not that infinite is a focus here or anything but all winds that are in this are infinite
> 
> View attachment Sparkle Alley v0.1.mp3


Amazing! 
Thank you !!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DANIELE said:


> What did you use for the woodwinds?


I used the Flute 1 and Piccolo (Infinite) and then some woodwind FX patches from met ark 3. Might've been some of the free orchestra (project sam) too.


----------



## duringtheafter

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I used the Flute 1 and Piccolo (Infinite) and then some woodwind FX patches from met ark 3. Might've been some of the free orchestra (project sam) too.


What were the "ooooooh"s?  No, seriously, I'm interested.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

duringtheafter said:


> What were the "ooooooh"s?  No, seriously, I'm interested.


The choir? That was the essentials strezov one haha


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

NeonMediaKJT said:


> The choir? That was the essentials strezov one haha


Oh and Clare solo voice. That was free I think


----------



## Jamus

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Oh and Clare solo voice. That was free I think


Can't go wrong with free 😎


----------



## jesussaddle

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I just recently bought precedence and breeze to use with infinite and csw. Anyone Elsie using it here? So far I like how I can push the brass back just a little bit more it seems to really be helping me


This is exactly what I do - haven't gotten to work on synth and orchestra stuff for a bit - but its one reason why I think I'm so happy with Aaron's stuff - given the freedom to "place it" anyway you like.


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I used the Flute 1 and Piccolo (Infinite) and then some woodwind FX patches from met ark 3. Might've been some of the free orchestra (project sam) too.


Ok, I loved the runs and I was just asking myself why I'm not able to get that result...


----------



## porrasm

Oh no...


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Sadly, it was excepted. I've been checking the website every day for the last month waiting for it.


----------



## DANIELE

I knew it. New date 31/12/2023.


----------



## Lord Daknight

Oh no... I see Infinite Woodwinds was unreleased and also is set for 2023...

Also a man in a hood with a gun demanded to see my hard drive and I came back to see IW removed from my computer, alongside all my hentai... Oh well at least I have 3 more terabytes free to install libraries on


----------



## gedlig

Lord Daknight said:


> Also a man in a hood with a gun demanded to see my hard drive and I came back to see IW removed from my computer, alongside all my hentai... Oh well at least I have 3 more terabytes free to install libraries on


Some mf did the same to me! Will take years to get my collection back to its former glory...


----------



## Lord Daknight

gedlig said:


> Some mf did the same to me! Will take years to get my collection back to its former glory...


Funny, the guy sounded a lot like Aaron doing a batman voice...
Nah, My hours of watching the walkthroughs on repeat messed with my mind, I see him everywhere


----------



## gedlig

Lord Daknight said:


> Funny, the guy sounded a lot like Aaron doing a batman voice...
> Nah, My hours of watching the walkthroughs on repeat messed with my mind, I see him everywhere


Sort of gathered that from the Cinebrass thread xD


----------



## ibanez1

Anyone have some insight into when the infinite series black Friday sale will start?


----------



## gedlig

ibanez1 said:


> Anyone have some insight into when the infinite series black Friday sale will start?


If it doesn't happen until or during bf, there's a high possibility it'll happen when the updates drop (methinks from previous experience)


----------



## Juulu

Still holding out hope it'll be an early 2023 release. I'm fine on strings at the moment tbh. I'm more excited for the updates, which I think will still drop this year. Speaking of which, does anyone know if the updates coincide with price changes? I wasn't here for brass 1.6 but I think IB was mentioned to be cheaper. I'm trying to decide if I should get IW now before any potential price increases. I'm probably completely off base with this thought though.


----------



## Marcel

Juulu said:


> Still holding out hope it'll be an early 2023 release. I'm fine on strings at the moment tbh. I'm more excited for the updates, which I think will still drop this year. Speaking of which, does anyone know if the updates coincide with price changes? I wasn't here for brass 1.6 but I think IB was mentioned to be cheaper. I'm trying to decide if I should get IW now before any potential price increases. I'm probably completely off base with this thought though.


IB 1.6 was 350 when I got it, same price as 1.5 a couple months earlier.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

DANIELE said:


> Ok, I loved the runs and I was just asking myself why I'm not able to get that result...


Oh the runs were all Infinite. Just Piccolo and flute 1 playing octaves. No EQ on those but I did add reverb


----------



## DANIELE

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Oh the runs were all Infinite. Just Piccolo and flute 1 playing octaves. No EQ on those but I did add reverb


Ok, so maybe I'm doing something wrong, I'll wait for the update to come to make some more experiments.


----------



## Jorf88

Well, the delay makes me big sad. :(
I was hoping it'd be a BF release, to save me from spending money elsewhere.
I'm now debating acquiring CSS because the legato in SSS and SCS drives me nuts and the measured trems aren't bite-y enough... but I've heard too many things about CSS being frustrating to work with due to the delay. That's a gripe for a different thread.

In the meantime I can still just be happy that I'm not drawn towards any other brass/ww libraries because IB and IW are pure gold (I await the updates, tho).


----------



## Russell Anderson

Jorf88 said:


> Well, the delay makes me big sad. :(
> I was hoping it'd be a BF release, to save me from spending money elsewhere.
> I'm now debating acquiring CSS because the legato in SSS and SCS drives me nuts and the measured trems aren't bite-y enough... but I've heard too many things about CSS being frustrating to work with due to the delay. That's a gripe for a different thread.
> 
> In the meantime I can still just be happy that I'm not drawn towards any other brass/ww libraries because IB and IW are pure gold (I await the updates, tho).


Do you know of any local audio/composer communities? If you don't want to make sense of the delay timings in your head you can try someone else's copy that way, or... Pacific


----------



## sound team apk

Jorf88 said:


> Well, the delay makes me big sad. :(
> I was hoping it'd be a BF release, to save me from spending money elsewhere.
> I'm now debating acquiring CSS because the legato in SSS and SCS drives me nuts and the measured trems aren't bite-y enough... but I've heard too many things about CSS being frustrating to work with due to the delay. That's a gripe for a different thread.


Does Infinite's variable legato delay bother you? I won't try to go into whether you may or may not want CSS on this thread, but maybe as an Infinite user the variable legato delay won't seem so unusual?


----------



## Jorf88

sound team apk said:


> Does Infinite's variable legato delay bother you? I won't try to go into whether you may or may not want CSS on this thread, but maybe as an Infinite user the variable legato delay won't seem so unusual?


I have no issues at all with Infinite's legatos. I've just read/heard that CSS is significantly more delayed than basically everything else out there...
My preferred solution to this ailment would be Infinite Strings.


----------



## Juulu

Jorf88 said:


> I have no issues at all with Infinite's legatos. I've just read/heard that CSS is significantly more delayed than basically everything else out there...
> My preferred solution to this ailment would be Infinite Strings.


If you're using the "expressive" legato it can take a while to learn to play before the click, but it's not too much of a hassle to me personally. Besides that, there's a new low-latency mode that gets rid of a lot of the delay.


----------



## Juulu

So, after watching the sequel to Black Panther I've become obsessed with the soundtrack of the original film after revisiting it. Spent a few hours trying to recreate the fanfare composed by Ludwig. Anyone know any good talking drum libraries? lol

Brass
View attachment Wakanda Brass.mp3


In Context
View attachment Wakanda.mp3


----------



## Simon Passmore

Juulu said:


> So, after watching the sequel to Black Panther I've become obsessed with the soundtrack of the original film after revisiting it. Spent a few hours trying to recreate the fanfare composed by Ludwig. Anyone know any good talking drum libraries? lol
> 
> Brass
> View attachment Wakanda Brass.mp3
> 
> 
> In Context
> View attachment Wakanda.mp3


Good job with this! There's a talking drum in CinePerc which is massively reduced at the moment


----------



## Juulu

Simon Passmore said:


> Good job with this! There's a talking drum in CinePerc which is massively reduced at the moment


Thanks. Y'know sometimes I forgot just how massive cineperc is haha. I'll have to play around with it later.


----------



## Marcel

Simon Passmore said:


> Good job with this! There's a talking drum in CinePerc which is massively reduced at the moment


Wouldn't you want it reduced? I would so dislike constantly hearing an instrument ramble on about life


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Juulu said:


> So, after watching the sequel to Black Panther I've become obsessed with the soundtrack of the original film after revisiting it. Spent a few hours trying to recreate the fanfare composed by Ludwig. Anyone know any good talking drum libraries? lol
> 
> Brass
> View attachment Wakanda Brass.mp3
> 
> 
> In Context
> View attachment Wakanda.mp3


That is amazin. Those trumpets sound I credible


----------



## Bee_Abney

Juulu said:


> So, after watching the sequel to Black Panther I've become obsessed with the soundtrack of the original film after revisiting it. Spent a few hours trying to recreate the fanfare composed by Ludwig. Anyone know any good talking drum libraries? lol
> 
> Brass
> View attachment Wakanda Brass.mp3
> 
> 
> In Context
> View attachment Wakanda.mp3



Loops de la Creme's Prehistoric Drumkit includes a talking drum NKI. I'm not sure how good it is compared to the Cineperc one. It has different pitches on different keys. You can add a little extra 'boing' with the pitch wheel. But as good as the library is generally, I don't think that the talking drum is convincing.









PREHISTORIC DRUMKIT — loops de la crème


A collection of percussive, melodic, and atmospheric Kontakt instruments inspired by Prehistory: unique and breathtaking!




www.loopsdelacreme.com


----------



## ModalRealist




----------



## Markrs

Whilst it is sad that the strings are delayed the positive is they will be even better when they are released rather than trying to get them finished before they are ready.


----------



## Bee_Abney

Markrs said:


> Whilst it is sad that the strings are delayed the positive is they will be even better when they are released rather than trying to get them finished before they are ready.


That comment just set the release schedule back another six months!


----------



## Mikro93

Marcel said:


> Wouldn't you want it reduced? I would so dislike constantly hearing an instrument ramble on about life


As a former percussionist, I have opinions. Which I will explain in great detail during the second movement.


----------



## Juulu

Thanks @Bee_Abney might look more into that library, but I ended up just using the ones from CinePerc. There's obviously a character about the actual performed instruments that I'm just not going to be able to replicate, but regardless, I had fun anyway. Here's the full thing (with the brass singing as usual).


----------



## Bee_Abney

Juulu said:


> Thanks @Bee_Abney might look more into that library, but I ended up just using the ones from CinePerc. There's obviously a character about the actual performed instruments that I'm just not going to be able to replicate, but regardless, I had fun anyway. Here's the full thing (with the brass singing as usual).



I think you've done just fine! It sounds wonderful, powerful and stirring.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

...so, I'm probably going to buy IB soon and I've read all the recommendations of using Spectre on it (@Trash Panda ). Can anyone tell me how Spectre compares with Saturn 2? 
I was going to pick up Saturn 2 (can get it for about the same price as Spectre) but I'm wondering if one of them is simply superior to the other or if it makes sense to have both.


----------



## doctoremmet

Laurin Lenschow said:


> ...so, I'm probably going to buy IB soon and I've read all the recommendations of using Spectre on it (@Trash Panda ). Can anyone tell me how Spectre compares with Saturn 2?
> I was going to pick up Saturn 2 (can get it for about the same price as Spectre) but I'm wondering if one of them is simply superior to the other or if it makes sense to have both.


People who don’t use Spectre on IB might as well just use Soundfonts. And the notion of even thinking of using Saturn 2 can get you banned!

Honestly? I think even without saturation IB can render some amazing results. I did get Spectre and understand the appeal. But I think one must not mistake a slight quality improvement for a necessity


----------



## DANIELE

doctoremmet said:


> People who don’t use Spectre on IB might as well just use Soundfonts. And the notion of even thinking of using Saturn 2 can get you banned!
> 
> Honestly? I think even without saturation IB can render some amazing results. I did get Spectre and understand the appeal. But I think one must not mistake a slight quality improvement for a necessity


Does IN mean Infinite "N"? The definitive virtual instrument?


----------



## doctoremmet

DANIELE said:


> Does IN means Infinite "N"? The definitive virtual instrument?


It was a typo, but one of the “honour thy errors as hidden intentions” type haha


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

doctoremmet said:


> Honestly? I think even without saturation IB can render some amazing results. I did get Spectre and understand the appeal. But I think one must not mistake a slight quality improvement for a necessity


I understand that it's not a necessity, but I was going to get a new saturation-plugin anyway because I don't have much in my arsenal for that yet. So I thought I might as well get the one that works best with IB


----------



## doctoremmet

Laurin Lenschow said:


> the one that works best with IB


But this notion is actually fictitious


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

doctoremmet said:


> But this notion is actually fictitious


I see... well, in that case my question becomes "Should I get Saturn 2 or Spectre", but since that's (now) unrelated to the Infinite libraries I'll probably start a new thread soon.


----------



## Tanarri

Any idea what will IS include? Violins, violas, celli, basses and the electric versions? Something else?

I was about to buy some upright bass and fiddle but then I realized I will probably be able to substitute it all with IS stuff. Solo IS bass pizzicati for jazz-like bass and solo IS violin for everything violin-like. 

I guess harp won't be a part of IS, right?


----------



## sound team apk

Laurin Lenschow said:


> ...so, I'm probably going to buy IB soon and I've read all the recommendations of using Spectre on it (@Trash Panda ). Can anyone tell me how Spectre compares with Saturn 2?
> I was going to pick up Saturn 2 (can get it for about the same price as Spectre) but I'm wondering if one of them is simply superior to the other or if it makes sense to have both.


Despite @Trash Panda's expertise and enthusiasm for Spectre, I don't know that we've definitively proven that it's the only correct solution.  

I think the key is to use a multiband exciter to target particular frequencies, so if you already have one (or plan to get a different one anyway), I would try that first. 

I can't compare the two plugins for you, but I can tell you that I'm happy enough with the results from Saturn 2 (which I already had) that I've somehow avoided buying Spectre -- so far.

I've been using a pretty tiny (only +1db or so) amount of tube or tape saturation to thicken the lower end of the trombones just a bit and to balance out the buzziness at the top layer (which I also slightly cut with an EQ). But I'm aiming to add just a little bit of weight without hyping the sound too much -- comparing to Berlin Brass and / or Cinebrass. I have not attempted to achieve something like the AMXL mixes from THB, so perhaps Spectre is more ideal for that use case.


----------



## decredis

Tanarri said:


> Any idea what will IS include? Violins, violas, celli, basses and the electric versions? Something else?
> 
> I was about to buy some upright bass and fiddle but then I realized I will probably be able to substitute it all with IS stuff. Solo IS bass pizzicati for jazz-like bass and solo IS violin for everything violin-like.
> 
> I guess harp won't be a part of IS, right?


He has said that it will initially include the standard four string instruments; with, iirc, electric versions to follow in a relatively early update.

I don't think he's mentioned harp; but the general principle is that additional instruments that fall within the general category of an Infinite library will be added to that library (as free updates) rather than forming a new library. Whether that means harps will eventually find a place in IS, I don't know.


----------



## Luka

To me, Harp is more in the category of Percussion.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Edit: I couldn't find the posts so it might have just been a fever dream. 

He actually did mention harp but this was years and years ago so I might be remembering it wrong. The way I remember it is that he never clearly said if IS would include a harp or not, all I think he said was something to the effect of "It's a stringed instrument, isn't it? ". As I said, this was years and years ago and just a fun little tease and it could very well not mean anything. He's never mentioned it since and it doesn't mention it in the FAQ so don't expect there to be a harp in IS.

I actually have a tendency to lump harp in with piano and the other percussion even if I know it's technically incorrect.

Edit: to add to what I already wrote; I think he's also previously stated that piano and harp are something that he's looking into but it didn't seem like a high priority since Pianoteq has already done such an amazing job with those instruments. I would guess that also extends to classical guitars with the latest update of Pianoteq I would guess. Personally, I still hope we get at least some piano, harp, and guitar in the same space as the rest of the series.


----------



## Trash Panda

Laurin Lenschow said:


> I understand that it's not a necessity, but I was going to get a new saturation-plugin anyway because I don't have much in my arsenal for that yet. So I thought I might as well get the one that works best with IB


@Laurin Lenschow to be clear, I wouldn't say Spectre is the best _for_ Infinite Brass or any other library. 

The most common complaint against Infinite Brass I've personally seen in comparisons is that it lacks the same low-end oomph as JXL's AXML mics, Talos Low Brass or CineBrass Monster Low Brass. If you are trying to replicate the low end oomph and/or high end sizzle of the AMXL mics from JXL Brass, Spectre gets you there very quickly and easily. I personally came across this solution trying to get the JXL Brass unprocessed mics to have the low end oomph of the AMXL mics without the (IMO) excessive high end sizzle that was a bad fit for a project I was working on.

I doubt Alan Meyerson and Tom Holkenborg were using that specific plugin for those mic mixes, but there is definitely multiband saturation going on in addition to some EQ and likely some other secret sauce analog gear along with far more experienced and refined ears than mine.

Ultimately both Saturn 2 and Spectre are fantastic tools (I have both) that can get you to the desired end result. I tend to reach for Spectre first over Saturn 2 for basic band-targeted saturation needs as it's a quicker and (to my ears) more natural sounding route from point A to B in that use case. For more extreme or complex distortion effects, Saturn 2 is hard to beat.


----------



## Bee_Abney

Trash Panda said:


> @Laurin Lenschow to be clear, I wouldn't say Spectre is the best _for_ Infinite Brass or any other library.
> 
> The most common complaint against Infinite Brass I've personally seen in comparisons is that it lacks the same low-end oomph as JXL's AXML mics, Talos Low Brass or CineBrass Monster Low Brass. If you are trying to replicate the low end oomph and/or high end sizzle of the AMXL mics from JXL Brass, Spectre gets you there very quickly and easily. I personally came across this solution trying to get the JXL Brass unprocessed mics to have the low end oomph of the AMXL mics without the (IMO) excessive high end sizzle that was a bad fit for a project I was working on.
> 
> I doubt Alan Meyerson and Tom Holkenborg were using that specific plugin for those mic mixes, but there is definitely multiband saturation going on in addition to some EQ and likely some other secret sauce analog gear along with far more experienced and refined ears than mine.
> 
> Ultimately both Saturn 2 and Spectre are fantastic tools (I have both) that can get you to the desired end result. I tend to reach for Spectre first over Saturn 2 for basic band-targeted saturation needs as it's a quicker and (to my ears) more natural sounding route from point A to B in that use case. For more extreme or complex distortion effects, Saturn 2 is hard to beat.


It's probably both more complex and less flexible than is needed, but I'd be interested in trying multiband processing to put different microphone impulse responses on different frequency bands.

Thanks for this great, detailed description of the reasons and process here, though. It's fascinating stuff.


----------



## decredis

Jonathan Moray said:


> Edit: I couldn't find the posts so it might have just been a fever dream.
> 
> He actually did mention harp but this was years and years ago so I might be remembering it wrong. The way I remember it is that he never clearly said if IS would include a harp or not, all I think he said was something to the effect of "It's a stringed instrument, isn't it? ". As I said, this was years and years ago and just a fun little tease and it could very well not mean anything. He's never mentioned it since and it doesn't mention it in the FAQ so don't expect there to be a harp in IS.


No, you're right!

this post confirms he plans for harps to be included in an update to IS at some point in time for when IP is out


----------



## Jonathan Moray

decredis said:


> No, you're right!
> 
> this post confirms he plans for harps to be included in an update to IS at some point in time for when IP is out


There you go. I was looking through the wrong thread. I might not be going as crazy as I thought. But still, keep in mind that this was a long time ago and before any real work had started on the string and things change. We haven't heard anything about the content of the strings in a good while.


----------



## Flyo

Hi here. I’m discovering Infinte and I’m surprised. Anyone knows if there will be BF good discount these days? Is the better time to get the mayor discount? Thank you in advance

Edited without Mayor in
🤣


----------



## Marcel

Flyo said:


> Hi here. I’m discovering Infinte and I’m surprised. Anyone knows if there will be BF mayor discount these days? Is the better time to get the mayor discount? Thank you in advance


whoa that's really cool, you're a mayor?


----------



## AlainTH

Flyo said:


> Hi here. I’m discovering Infinte and I’m surprised. Anyone knows if there will be BF mayor discount these days? Is the better time to get the mayor discount? Thank you in advance


the editor is on this forum, send him a message with your question


----------



## Marcel

gedlig said:


> He was already made fun of in another thread, why do that here too xD


What was the point of this comment?


----------



## Juulu

Flyo said:


> Hi here. I’m discovering Infinte and I’m surprised. Anyone knows if there will be BF good discount these days? Is the better time to get the mayor discount? Thank you in advance
> 
> Edited without Mayor in
> 🤣


We won't necessarily know but if last year was anything to go off of, only the bundle for Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds will be on sale, not the individual libraries. You can also email Aaron directly or contact him through the store page to get the info you need.


----------



## gedlig

Marcel said:


> What was the point of this comment?


ahh nevermind, I'm just gonna delete it :D


----------



## Mikro93

Aaron Venture's Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds are on sale!









Aaron Venture—Welcome to the Next Generation of Virtual Instruments


Infinite Series delivers realistic virtual orchestral instruments that play almost like the real thing and sound like a recording, straight out-of-the-box. Create your own ensembles and position them as you wish within real spaces. Infinite Series instruments are laptop-ready with low RAM requiremen




www.aaronventure.com





"up to 45% until December 8"


----------



## Soundbed

I'm dashing off to a family gathering. What's the easiest way to know if I'm using the most recent version? 

• When I open IW it says version 2.0 in the lower right.
• Brass says 1.6

I didn't see the latest version numbers at https://www.aaronventure.com/update and didn't see anything in my inbox (that wasn't a VI thread).


----------



## SirKen

Soundbed said:


> I'm dashing off to a family gathering. What's the easiest way to know if I'm using the most recent version?
> 
> • When I open IW it says version 2.0 in the lower right.
> • Brass says 1.6
> 
> I didn't see the latest version numbers at https://www.aaronventure.com/update and didn't see anything in my inbox (that wasn't a VI thread).


I just downloaded it now and your version numbers are matching with the downloaded RAR filenames. Enjoy the family gathering without worries :D


----------



## ibanez1

I have officially joined the infinite series cult ... uh i mean community . Will try to keep up with the rest of you and post some demos here in the near future.


----------



## ansthenia

ibanez1 said:


> I have officially joined the infinite series cult ... uh i mean community . Will try to keep up with the rest of you and post some demos here in the near future.


🕯️🕯️ONE OF US🕯️🕯️


----------



## Charder

I already got CSW and Cinebrass complete this BF season. I don't want to fall into a hole again and just sit down and learn with what I got.


----------



## studioj

Mikro93 said:


> Aaron Venture's Infinite Brass and Infinite Woodwinds are on sale!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aaron Venture—Welcome to the Next Generation of Virtual Instruments
> 
> 
> Infinite Series delivers realistic virtual orchestral instruments that play almost like the real thing and sound like a recording, straight out-of-the-box. Create your own ensembles and position them as you wish within real spaces. Infinite Series instruments are laptop-ready with low RAM requiremen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "up to 45% until December 8"


and wow, they sent me an automatic refund of the difference for the price I paid about a week ago. Didn't even ask. amazing service!


----------



## Michael Antrum

studioj said:


> and wow, they sent me an automatic refund of the difference for the price I paid about a week ago. Didn't even ask. amazing service!


You bought a library a week before the Black Friday Sales.......?

Send him to Dr. Emmet for re-education......


----------



## skythemusic

Oh an, going to be hard to resist this sale. I've wanted to buy this for years.


----------



## Trash Panda

ibanez1 said:


> I have officially joined the infinite series cult ... uh i mean community . Will try to keep up with the rest of you and post some demos here in the near future.


Welcome to the asylum. Don't mind the noises at night. It's just our Caretaker testing out new IRs.


----------



## studioj

Michael Antrum said:


> You bought a library a week before the Black Friday Sales.......?
> 
> Send him to Dr. Emmet for re-education......


Ha! I needed it!


----------



## I like music

Welcome to all the new inmates. 
I'm hoping your versions say Brass 2.0 and Winds 3.0!


----------



## jesussaddle

ibanez1 said:


> I have officially joined the infinite series cult ... uh i mean community . Will try to keep up with the rest of you and post some demos here in the near future.


Its not an official cult unless Aaron puts out more fun teasers - like one about the release date for Infinite Strings. Beside, what kind of cult leader doesn't have consistent reminders to adhere - where's my weekly emails Aaron!?

- - a former cult member in limbo.


----------



## Tanarri

ibanez1 said:


> I have officially joined the infinite series cult ... uh i mean community . Will try to keep up with the rest of you and post some demos here in the near future.


----------



## I like music

I once heard someone say that time is a circle. I think what they meant is that if we keep asking Aaron about the strings and he keeps delaying them by 1 month, that eventually it'll come back around to a December release.


----------



## Phazma

Man I thought I knew what to buy after long speculations but this sale overthrows everything... a few questions that may help me make up my mind. 

Does Aaron Venture do other sales too regularly or only Black Friday? If he does other sales, is the price ever as low as on BF?

The site says "up to 45% off" but the biggest discount I see is on Infinite Brass which is around 33%. Am I missing something?

The site also says:



> If you own any of the Infinite Series products, you are eligible for an upgrade to a bundle they’re a part of by paying the price difference—that way you save the same amount! *Your discount will amount to the current price of the products/bundles you own (educational/promotional discounts excluded).*


Does this include/exclude BF discount? Does it mean I could buy one of the libraries and if I like it get the other and the total I spend will still be the same as getting the bundle straight away (499$ during BF sale)?

Does anyone own PS Angry Brass/Woodwinds and/or MS Trailer Brass and/or AI Fluid series and can tell me whether the Infinite Series can do everything these libraries can? The Infinite Series is not marketed towards "epic" sound, but is it as suitable like the afore mentioned libraries? 

Aaron is likely to get my money at some point but it's hard to decide whether it is now..


----------



## jesussaddle

Can someone confirm for me that the email links and "manage updates" part of Aaron's website is working. I didn't get any notification to update and I still have old versions apparently. I went on there to try and update and can't see any way to generate a working link. The original links in my emails don't work either. (If links are only valid for 7 days and purchasers like me with active accounts - I can log in with my original email address you see) are not being notified, and aaron and fastspring are both added to my contacts and none of his emails are showing in spam .


----------



## jesussaddle

Phazma said:


> Man I thought I knew what to buy after long speculations but this sale overthrows everything... a few questions that may help me make up my mind.
> 
> Does Aaron Venture do other sales too regularly or only Black Friday? If he does other sales, is the price ever as low as on BF?
> 
> The site says "up to 45% off" but the biggest discount I see is on Infinite Brass which is around 33%. Am I missing something?
> 
> The site also says:
> 
> 
> Does this include/exclude BF discount? Does it mean I could buy one of the libraries and if I like it get the other and the total I spend will still be the same as getting the bundle straight away (499$ during BF sale)?
> 
> Does anyone own PS Angry Brass/Woodwinds and/or MS Trailer Brass and/or AI Fluid series and can tell me whether the Infinite Series can do everything these libraries can? The Infinite Series is not marketed towards "epic" sound, but is it as suitable like the afore mentioned libraries?
> 
> Aaron is likely to get my money at some point but it's hard to decide whether it is now..


I get good results with Aaron's Infinite Brass by using compression, saturation, and 2C Audio's Breeze & Precedence reverb & placement vsts. I couldn't be happier (except apparently I don't get updates on his products).


----------



## PebbleStream

Ooh I want to press that 'BUY' button so much but know damn well I can't. Afraid I'll have to be joining the Infinite KVLT another time, when I have more cash to spare...


----------



## Trash Panda

Phazma said:


> Does anyone own PS Angry Brass/Woodwinds and/or MS Trailer Brass and/or AI Fluid series and can tell me whether the Infinite Series can do everything these libraries can? The Infinite Series is not marketed towards "epic" sound, but is it as suitable like the afore mentioned libraries?


They can do everything these libraries can do and more, but there is a significant learning curve involved in how to craft articulations you would normally just use a keyswitch to access. 

Shorts are easy enough to figure out, but sustains, sforzandos, marcatos, etc take some practice to pull off in a convincing fashion.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Trash Panda said:


> They can do everything these libraries can do and more, but there is a significant learning curve involved in how to craft articulations you would normally just use a keyswitch to access.
> 
> Shorts are easy enough to figure out, but sustains, sforzandos, marcatos, etc take some practice to pull off in a convincing fashion.


I had mentioned this a year or so back - would be nice if the manual had programming examples of these common articulations (including rips, etc). Would help the learning curve for new customers.


----------



## Captain Oveur

I like music said:


> Welcome to all the new inmates.
> I'm hoping your versions say Brass 2.0 and Winds 3.0!


Makes me wonder if the sale gets extended should 2.0 and 3.0 come after December 8.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

I'll be joining the clan tomorrow... together with all the saturation plugins in this world, probably 👀


----------



## sound team apk

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I had mentioned this a year or so back - would be nice if the manual had programming examples of these common articulations (including rips, etc). Would help the learning curve for new customers.


I've almost proposed a fan guide a few times. There are mockups and discussions on this thread that cover a lot of extremely useful material, but it's all hard to find.

I bet we could do something pretty helpful between articulation examples and what we people do with the sound. There are some essential things it took me more than a year to figure out by trial and error and / or discussion with others around here that would fit easily on a single page...


----------



## doctoremmet

Phazma said:


> Does anyone own PS Angry Brass/Woodwinds and/or MS Trailer Brass and/or AI Fluid series and can tell me whether the Infinite Series can do everything these libraries can? The Infinite Series is not marketed towards "epic" sound, but is it as suitable like the afore mentioned libraries?


----------



## Phazma

Trash Panda said:


> Take some practice to pull off in a convincing fashion.


I keep reading that and it's what is holding me off. When I check the demos it seems so easy, the people just play it and it works, but whether it will work like that for me too is up for debate... 
I am specifically looking for no-keyswitch libraries that allow me to just play and hear what I have in mind, roughly record it and if needed tweak the midi a bit. Most of the stuff I do is pretty simple though so the Infinite series is luxury, but perhaps it is the best one stop shop for people who like the no-keyswitch approach rather than cobbling together several other libraries. For Brass I mainly need bold melodic lines and fanfare staccatos with bright/brassy but fullbodied sound and for woodwinds it's mostly runs, arps, staccato reps and sometimes adventurish melodic lines with an airy sound that doesn't get buried.


----------



## Phazma

doctoremmet said:


>



Wow Infinite Brass sounds so crisp! Thanks for the video. I am wondering how the trumpets sound with this type of playing..

And I guess this type of staccato/marcato playing is not too hard to program/perform (as opposed to exposed, lyrical legato lines with variable vibrato, elaborate dynamic swells etc..)?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Phazma said:


> I keep reading that and it's what is holding me off. When I check the demos it seems so easy, the people just play it and it works, but whether it will work like that for me too is up for debate...
> I am specifically looking for no-keyswitch libraries that allow me to just play and hear what I have in mind, roughly record it and if needed tweak the midi a bit. Most of the stuff I do is pretty simple though so the Infinite series is luxury, but perhaps it is the best one stop shop for people who like the no-keyswitch approach rather than cobbling together several other libraries. For Brass I mainly need bold melodic lines and fanfare staccatos with bright/brassy but fullbodied sound and for woodwinds it's mostly runs, arps, staccato reps and sometimes adventurish melodic lines with an airy sound that doesn't get buried.


You may want to check out Musical Sampling’s stuff. Highly playable, uncomplicated, covers the basic stuff, no key switching really needed, sounds fantastic.


----------



## doctoremmet

Phazma said:


> I am wondering how the trumpets sound with this type of playing..




Ridiculous tempo 😄


----------



## ibanez1

Phazma said:


> I keep reading that and it's what is holding me off. When I check the demos it seems so easy, the people just play it and it works, but whether it will work like that for me too is up for debate...
> I am specifically looking for no-keyswitch libraries that allow me to just play and hear what I have in mind, roughly record it and if needed tweak the midi a bit. Most of the stuff I do is pretty simple though so the Infinite series is luxury, but perhaps it is the best one stop shop for people who like the no-keyswitch approach rather than cobbling together several other libraries. For Brass I mainly need bold melodic lines and fanfare staccatos with bright/brassy but fullbodied sound and for woodwinds it's mostly runs, arps, staccato reps and sometimes adventurish melodic lines with an airy sound that doesn't get buried.


Within an hour of playing, I have mostly figured out staccato, staccatissimo, marcato, marcato into a crescendo, and legato and i'm not a very good keyboard player. I even had convincing trills going on the woodwinds. If you are already experienced with the modwheel and can play velocity layers reasonably in your keyboard, I think you'll be fine.


----------



## ibanez1

doctoremmet said:


> Ridiculous tempo 😄



It is amazing how articulate the infinite trumpet handled that line. A real brass player definitely wouldn't handle that triplet. Most of the other examples blurred that part and avdenture brass sounded very synthy at that speed. Also did anyone tell you you have a lot of libraries?


----------



## ibanez1

Laurin Lenschow said:


> I'll be joining the clan tomorrow... together with all the saturation plugins in this world, probably 👀


The saturation plugin is my only missing piece. I was nearly going to buy spectre the other night but then got distracted with contemplating purchasing cineperc and committing to buying gullfoss. I think I have a problem....


----------



## Phazma

ALittleNightMusic said:


> You may want to check out Musical Sampling’s stuff. Highly playable, uncomplicated, covers the basic stuff, no key switching really needed, sounds fantastic.


I already own them and I love trailer brass (except for the horde patch), but I am not really a fan of Adventure Brass. When it comes to Brass I am looking mainly for a trumpet that is both beefier and brassier but has the same agility as Adventure Brass. In terms of woodwinds Musical Sampling has no Trailer/Adventure woodwinds on offer so another library needs to fill the gap.


----------



## Phazma

doctoremmet said:


> Ridiculous tempo 😄



Impressive how Infinite Brass handles this, the only one sounding decent at this speed!


----------



## ibanez1

I think that's the true realization with infinite. You might have some issues with the tone which you may need to use some plugins to beef up but the immense positive is, if you can think of any of your favorite complicated brass/woodwind parts in any piece, you can most likely achieve it with these libraries. You may not be able to perform it all in one go but you definitely won't be fighting the library to sound convincing vs. many other sample libraries.


----------



## gives19

Sounds like a synth to me. Not my cup of tea. I do like some their libraries, but this is not a winner for brass.


----------



## Trash Panda

gives19 said:


> Sounds like a synth to me. Not my cup of tea. I do like some their libraries, but this is not a winner for brass.


----------



## Tanarri

@Trash Panda Btw, thank you for the Spectre recommendation. I use it on basically every intrument now. 😄 It adds life even to stuff I wasn't using before because of how dead it sounded. 👌


----------



## gedlig

Tanarri said:


> @Trash Panda Btw, thank you for the Spectre recommendation. I use it on basically every intrument now. 😄 It adds life even to stuff I wasn't using before because of how dead it sounded. 👌


Did you pay him a referral commission? Can't keep your stomach full with thank yous :D


----------



## gamma-ut

gives19 said:


> I do like some their libraries, but this is not a winner for brass.



They've only got two and one of them is the brass one.

EDIT: Different library, apparently, not IB in this case. Always tricky in a fast-moving thread.

I'm curious about the circumstances where you think it's synthy. Is it high dynamics? I've found it works really well on lines that can be a bit tedious to emulate with keyswitches on things like the hunting-call from Mozart's Horn Concerto #4 where you'd need to switch staccato and legato/porta quite quickly and some of the shorts are not staccs. IB sounded just right under those circumstances to my mind: a lot of horns can come over too aggressive on the shorts unless you're really careful with velocity and it's the kind of passage that can go uncanny valley real fast.


----------



## darx

I'm not familiar with how this modeling works, but could infinite strings solve the issue of vibrato transitions and overall control?


----------



## aaronventure

darx said:


> I'm not familiar with how this modeling works, but could infinite strings solve the issue of vibrato transitions and overall control?


That's the idea.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

Laurin Lenschow said:


> I'll be joining the clan tomorrow... together with all the saturation plugins in this world, probably 👀


...so I just finished downloading Infinite Brass and started playing. All I can say is that I filled out the form for the crossgrade to the bundle after spending less than 5 minutes with the library. You folks really did not exaggerate.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Laurin Lenschow said:


> ...so I just finished downloading and started playing. All I can say is that I filled out the form for the crossgrade to the bundle after spending less than 5 minutes with Infinite Brass. You folks really did not exaggerate.


Nope, they really are that good. And they get better with each update.


----------



## darx

aaronventure said:


> That's the idea.


That would be great!


----------



## ibanez1

Laurin Lenschow said:


> ...so I just finished downloading Infinite Brass and started playing. All I can say is that I filled out the form for the crossgrade to the bundle after spending less than 5 minutes with the library. You folks really did not exaggerate.


It doesn't take long to realize how much a game changer these libraries are


----------



## Tanarri

Laurin Lenschow said:


> ...so I just finished downloading Infinite Brass and started playing. All I can say is that I filled out the form for the crossgrade to the bundle after spending less than 5 minutes with the library. You folks really did not exaggerate.


I shed a manly tear of pure joy and vast relief when first playing IB and knowing we are finally in the age when a library can sound like a real live orchestral section. 🥲


----------



## Loïc D

aaronventure said:


> That's the idea.


The Grand Master just spoke ! 

* knees on the ground *

#iveseenthelight


----------



## Juulu

Does anyone know if the crossgrade is cheaper for Black Friday? Thinking of finally picking up IW.


----------



## aaronventure

Loïc D said:


> The Grand Master just spoke !
> 
> * knees on the ground *
> 
> #iveseenthelight


Every day's a comedy with you lot


----------



## Marcel

aaronventure said:


> Every day's a comedy with you lot


You know what else is everyday? Someone mentioning infinite strings and pushing it back to 3046 (oops I did the funny !)


----------



## doctoremmet

Marcel said:


> You know what else is everyday? Someone mentioning infinite strings and pushing it back to 3046 (oops I did the funny !)


I hear Jasper Blunk and Aaron have a bet who will release their string library first, which they are only allowed to do on the day their respective pieces of sheer genius aren’t mentioned ONCE on here.


----------



## aaronventure

Marcel said:


> You know what else is everyday? Someone mentioning infinite strings and pushing it back to 3046 (oops I did the funny !)


By now, the release date is some time after Half Life 3


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Yeah, you know the slogan; Vi-Control, Musicians Being Comedians.


----------



## Bollen

doctoremmet said:


> Ridiculous tempo 😄



Wow! IB is the only one I can actually hear the trumpeter going tah-kah-tah-kah triple tonguing! I had no idea they could also do that..., crazy!!!

And for those of you that don't know: a professional trumpeter can certainly play that at that speed.


----------



## doctoremmet

Bollen said:


> Wow! IB is the only one I can actually hear the trumpeter going tah-kah-tah-kah triple tonguing! I had no idea they could also do that..., crazy!!!


Granted, the 180 BPM decision was ludicrous. But AI’s Fluid Brass did release with speed as its main selling point haha. I concur though. Chris Hein’s short #6 sort of did a nice try there as well. But IB was the clear “winner”. Of a rather stupid little test.


----------



## gamma-ut

aaronventure said:


> By now, the release date is some time after Half Life 3



Duke Nukem. FOREVER!!!!


----------



## Phazma

@doctoremmet do you by chance have a similar video for testing the agility of woodwinds or are you more of a brass lover?


----------



## jesussaddle

Laurin Lenschow said:


> ...so I just finished downloading Infinite Brass and started playing. All I can say is that I filled out the form for the crossgrade to the bundle after spending less than 5 minutes with the library. You folks really did not exaggerate.


I can relate.


----------



## gives19

Phazma said:


> Impressive how Infinite Brass handles this, the only one sounding decent at this speed!





Phazma said:


> Impressive how Infinite Brass handles this, the only one sounding decent at this speed!





gamma-ut said:


> They've only got two and one of them is the brass one.
> 
> I'm curious about the circumstances where you think it's synthy. Is it high dynamics? I've found it works really well on lines that can be a bit tedious to emulate with keyswitches on things like the hunting-call from Mozart's Horn Concerto #4 where you'd need to switch staccato and legato/porta quite quickly and some of the shorts are not staccs. IB sounded just right under those circumstances to my mind: a lot of horns can come over too aggressive on the shorts unless you're really careful with velocity and it's the kind of passage that can go uncanny valley real fast.


The post I was talking about was not Infinite Brass Sorry.
I may have posted this wrong. Just recovering from surgery, so I bit out of it.

This is the one I was talking about.


----------



## Tanarri

@aaronventure Are you planning to add some intrumenst with the updates, or just focus on improving the existing ones and polishing the playability, GUI, and such? Just so I won't buy some things that I'll later get in Infinite Stuff.

And yeah, one request. Could you try to put as much controls into just one Kontakt page? I know the seating options take a lot of space with the picture of the stage, but I'd love these things, together with Studio/Bersa/Mozarteum switching just on one page. When I manually switch the settings for all the various instruments, it takes quite some time.



Juulu said:


> Does anyone know if the crossgrade is cheaper for Black Friday? Thinking of finally picking up IW.


Good question.


----------



## Mikro93

Juulu said:


> Does anyone know if the crossgrade is cheaper for Black Friday? Thinking of finally picking up IW.


It was last year, that's how I got IB  do ask for it!


----------



## SirKen

Just wanted to briefly interrupt the conversation to state the following for prospective buyers:

I just spent 15 minutes with both the Brass and the Woodwinds right now and I am an idiot for waiting this long to purchase this bundle.

You may now resume the discussion.


----------



## ibanez1

SirKen said:


> Just wanted to briefly interrupt the conversation to state the following for prospective buyers:
> 
> I just spent 15 minutes with both the Brass and the Woodwinds right now and I am an idiot for waiting this long to purchase this bundle.
> 
> You may now resume the discussion.


I like how everyone who has just purchased in the last day (me included) goes from "I hope my money was well spent" to "why was I even on the fence about it"


----------



## SirKen

ibanez1 said:


> I like how everyone who has just purchased in the last day (me included) goes from "I hope my money was well spent" to "why was I even on the fence about it"


Not only that. I would have also saved so much money not buying random crap even if I got this bundle last year when the last updates hit.

Anyway, this completely changed how I plan to allocate my remaining funds in the next couple of days.


----------



## gedlig

Yup, since I got it last year (got the brass in the summer update release sale and crossgraded to the bundle during bf) I really don't look at sample libraries and currently just picking up Liquidsonics stuff


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Tanarri said:


> @aaronventure Are you planning to add some intrumenst with the updates, or just focus on improving the existing ones and polishing the playability, GUI, and such? Just so I won't buy some things that I'll later get in Infinite Stuff.
> 
> And yeah, one request. Could you try to put as much controls into just one Kontakt page? I know the seating options take a lot of space with the picture of the stage, but I'd love these things, together with Studio/Bersa/Mozarteum switching just on one page. When I manually switch the settings for all the various instruments, it takes quite some time.
> 
> 
> Good question.


Everything can be CC assigned so you can switch the settings via CC on all the instruments simultaneously. It was unusual for me in the beginning, but after some trial and error, it works fine and is *a lot* easier than changing each instrument individually. At least I can't think of any exposed controls that can't be changed via CC.


----------



## doctoremmet

Phazma said:


> @doctoremmet do you by chance have a similar video for testing the agility of woodwinds or are you more of a brass lover?


I am a woodwind lover. Brass is the bastard child of my sample hoard 

I’m on it.


----------



## aaronventure

Tanarri said:


> @aaronventure Are you planning to add some intrumenst with the updates, or just focus on improving the existing ones and polishing the playability, GUI, and such? Just so I won't buy some things that I'll later get in Infinite Stuff.
> 
> And yeah, one request. Could you try to put as much controls into just one Kontakt page? I know the seating options take a lot of space with the picture of the stage, but I'd love these things, together with Studio/Bersa/Mozarteum switching just on one page. When I manually switch the settings for all the various instruments, it takes quite some time.
> 
> 
> Good question.


There's definitely gonna be tabbing in the updated GUI but I promise I won't spread the mics over 16 pages with oversized icons and 80% empty space on the screen. 

There's simply no way to do what I want to do elegantly without multiple tabs/panels. 

One of the tabs will be a dedicated CC mapping page. 

You will also be able to save patch settings (full or only room stuff, control stuff or mapping) into presets, share them with others, load them and even directly copy between the patches. Still trying to work out a "push settings to session" for automatic adjustment across the entire session, but it's tough because Kontakt patches don't have crosstalk. 

Tweak one patch, select which settings to push, click push, press play and voila. No more endless remapping and tweaking 12 patches one after another.


----------



## FireGS

aaronventure said:


> it's tough because Kontakt patches don't have crosstalk.


Even if they're in the same Kontakt instance? Wouldnt a master KSP be able to control all others? Or send commands at least..


----------



## doctoremmet

gives19 said:


> The post I was talking about was not Infinite Brass Sorry.
> I may have posted this wrong. Just recovering from surgery, so I bit out of it.
> 
> This is the one I was talking about.



It is no wonder you perceive IB as synthy in this video (I made the video). I deliberately recorded this phrase at 180 BPM which is a ridiculously fast tempo. Mostly to listen to Audio Imperia Fluid Brass, that was marketed as THE brass for fast passages. For fun I decided to test a couple of other libraries for comparison. In this video IB does sound the best to my ears. That said: it is by NO MEANS a good test. No brass library is supposed to NOT sound synthetic under these circumstances.

TL;DR this video is absolutely not suitable to gauge the marvelous qualities that IB has. I highly rate the instrument, as a matter of fact it is one of the very best brass libraries I have ever heard / played.


----------



## mussnig

So I have been intrigued about Spectre after I saw/heared what @Trash Panda did with it. However, today I realized that also Hornet TotalEQ allows saturation per band (for sure not as varied as Spectre). Did anybody try beefing up the low brass with Hornet TotalEQ? I am wondering if one obtains similar results to Spectre.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

mussnig said:


> So I have been intrigued about Spectre after I saw/heared what @Trash Panda did with it. However, today I realized that also Hornet TotalEQ allows saturation per band (for sure not as varied as Spectre). Did anybody try beefing up the low brass with Hornet TotalEQ? I am wondering if one obtains similar results to Spectre.


ooh i have that, i will try it. Not really used a saturator like that before, though.


----------



## xenos

Hi ! I have plan to invest in some breath controller and i thinking about TEC Breath and bite 2. May i ask You if somebody have experiance with using this with Infinite series. I'm very interested in how the TEC expression controller performs with these libraries and whether or not I should purchase one. I can add that i dont have experiance with any Breath controller before but im horn player so "in theory" i know how to use my breath  Maybe somebody could share some quick demo how TEC can perform with Infinite. I will be gratefull for You opinons about BBC TEC2


----------



## Ricgus3

Trash Panda said:


> First set up your microphone and position as you normally would.
> 
> In this example, I'm just using a trumpet in its default position in Mozarteum on Mix Mic 3.
> 
> View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Standard.mp3
> 
> 
> Open the wrench menu and find the active Convolve effect. You can hover over the IR name to see if it's the right one. In this example, it's under Insert Effects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next reduce the IR size under the "Late" tab in the picture above to taste. I went with 50%, which is the lowest setting for purposes of this demonstration.
> 
> View attachment AV IB Trumpet Mozarteum Half Tail.mp3


Omg I tried this now and it makes an even amazing library sound even more amazing!


----------



## gamma-ut

xenos said:


> Hi ! I have plan to invest in some breath controller and i thinking about TEC Breath and bite 2. May i ask You if somebody have experiance with using this with Infinite series. I'm very interested in how the TEC expression controller performs with these libraries and whether or not I should purchase one. I can add that i dont have experiance with any Breath controller before but im horn player so "in theory" i know how to use my breath  Maybe somebody could share some quick demo how TEC can perform with Infinite. I will be gratefull for You opinons about BBC TEC2



Personally, I find I get good results, weird as it seems, by not mapping breath/CC2 to dynamics and just relying on an expression slider or foot pedal. Using breath makes it a bit too jumpy, at least without a lot of massaging of the control-lane data before it goes into Kontakt. 

However, I'm not a wind/brass player and I think the issue for me is consistency of breath pressure – you're probably going to be a lot better than me at that – ramping up and down quickly through the dynamics is not great for the way IW and IB are programmed and velocity and note length do a lot of the switching between articulations, whereas it's fine for a full physical model like SWAM, where I typically switch velocity control off completely.

What I tend to do is either adjust the decay in the TEC control panel software, which is a handy cheat for dealing with the "oh crap, I can't quite keep this up" effect or just avoid using breath for dynamics. However, I map vibrato to tilt and bite to growl or to flutter, depending on instrument or use-case. So, you can get good use out of the TEC but it comes into its own more with instruments like the SWAM series IMO.

One of the beauties of the TEC is that you can program attack and delay for the signals and smooth them out a bit to deal with instruments and sample libraries that don't play nicely with a raw breath signal, which tends to be a lot noisier than foot or modwheel control.


----------



## scoplunk

xenos said:


> I will be gratefull for You opinons about BBC TEC2


I love this thing. I take it with me on the road now because I don't ever want to use these libraries without it. I'm not a wind player, but I've had a lot of experience with breath controllers starting in the DX7 days, so I'm comfortable with the whole idea of controlling dynamics with my breath while I'm playing. The only reason I mention this is that I've found that breath controllers seem to be one of those things that some people intuitively relate to and other people just don't. The TEC2 also has 3 other controllers that require physical control and I've seen comments from some people about it being too much to deal with while they're also playing lines. It all works for me and the control panel gives you a lot of ways to tailor the 4 controller curves to your preferences. So, it's a big thumbs up from me, with only a small warning that there's a learning curve and a possibility that breath controllers won't be your thing. But, if they turn out to be your thing, you're going to be very happy.


----------



## Pat Maddox

I could use some help configuring IB/IW to work well with TEC2. It appears that expression is mapped to both CC1 and CC2 out of the box, which is good… at least, when I blow (hard!), the expression value moves.

So that’s the main problem - how do I adjust IW’s sensitivity to CC2? I have to blow way too hard to even get to 1/2 of expression value. I don’t want to adjust the TEC2 - it is set how I like it, and works great with other libraries.

Next, is it possible to make IW only play a note when there’s CC2? More like how Sample Modeling and SWAM work.

Basically, I find IW works great when playing with keyboard + mod wheel. But I can’t seem to make it work like SM/SWAM with a breath controller, and those work perfectly as far as I’m concerned.

edit: my first thought with CC2 was to add a CC remap plugin in front of IW to remap CC1 to CC2. It kinda worked but was super choppy… and when I took off the remap plugin, I learned that IW responded to CC2 anyway. it just required more air power than I have available.


----------



## scoplunk

Hmm. I set my TEC to output CC1 with breath. I just opened the factory horn patch in IB and dynamics are assigned to CC1. I don't know why CC2 is working at all. I would open the GUI of the IB instance you want to use, right click the dynamics slider, select Learn MIDI CC automation and then blow into the TEC to reassign dynamics to CC2. 

As far as your second question goes, I've never set mine up like that, mostly because I'm a keyboard player and not good enough with a BC to have the control I'd want without help from the keyboard. But, if I understand the manual correctly, if you set the Attack Range to 0 and the Dynamic Range all the way up, maybe this will give you the behavior you're after? I'm not around a keyboard or BC to test this right now, but I'm pretty sure there's a way to disable the keyboard velocity to attack behavior.


----------



## gamma-ut

Pat Maddox said:


> I could use some help configuring IB/IW to work well with TEC2. It appears that expression is mapped to both CC1 and CC2 out of the box, which is good… at least, when I blow (hard!), the expression value moves.
> 
> So that’s the main problem - how do I adjust IW’s sensitivity to CC2? I have to blow way too hard to even get to 1/2 of expression value. I don’t want to adjust the TEC2 - it is set how I like it, and works great with other libraries.
> 
> Next, is it possible to make IW only play a note when there’s CC2? More like how Sample Modeling and SWAM work.


This isn't necessarily the best way to look at the TEC. You can easily make and save curve and response presets for the controller and I think you'd be better off doing just setting some up for different VIs and sample libraries as it will make your life easier in the long run. With IW/IB, I'd recommend smoothing the response out by increasing the decay slider.

I'm also not sure what's going on with your IW/IB if it's responding to breath out of the box. The default mapping for dynamics is just modwheel on mine, though it's easy to switch it to CC2 either using MIDI learn or the Kontakt MIDI controller panel to the left.

Also, the instruments are designed to respond to velocity and the dynamics slider – I don't believe there is a way to have note attack to be controlled entirely by a CC, or at least not in a way that provides access to all the underlying samples. That's how the instrument was programmed.


----------



## Pat Maddox

Alright I figured out what's going on... the TEC _bite_ is mapped to CC1. So when I was blowing way harder than I should, I was also biting down somewhat, causing Dynamics to move. That also explains why I got the choppy behavior before - the bite CC1 was competing with the remapped CC2->CC1.

After midi learning Dynamics to CC2 (and removing the CC1 learn), it responds well.



gamma-ut said:


> You can easily make and save curve and response presets for the controller and I think you'd be better off doing just setting some up for different VIs and sample libraries as it will make your life easier in the long run.


I may experiment with that, but I'd prefer to have a single profile and not have to switch it any time I'm switching instruments.



gamma-ut said:


> Also, the instruments are designed to respond to velocity and the dynamics slider – I don't believe there is a way to have note attack to be controlled entirely by a CC, or at least not in a way that provides access to all the underlying samples. That's how the instrument was programmed.


Cool. Now that I've got it responding nicely to CC2, it's a lot of fun to play! And I will experiment with note velocity for shaping the attacks. Thanks.

---

p.s. @scoplunk thanks for that info. Setting attack range to minimum almost does the trick. It still puts out a barely audible tone even with dynamics at 0. But, sounds like that's not the way to use it anyway.


----------



## scoplunk

Pat Maddox said:


> p.s. @scoplunk thanks for that info. Setting attack range to minimum almost does the trick. It still puts out a barely audible tone even with dynamics at 0. But, sounds like that's not the way to use it anyway.


You're welcome for the tip, but I don't think there's any right or wrong way to use IB. This is from the manual:

Having it at 0 will disable the Soft and Hard attacks, and you will have full control of Dynamics for non-legato notes, therefore having to play in the attacks yourself. This might be a desired behavior for when using a breath controller

So, Aaron anticipated that some people might want to use breath to control the attacks, rather than using velocity. If that works for you, then that's perfectly OK.


----------



## Juulu

So... just bought IW. I have no idea why I was so on the fence lol


----------



## Marcel

Juulu said:


> So... just bought IW. I have no idea why I was so on the fence lol


You could easily be on the fence because if were being honest, the tone is not necessarily ideal for most of the instruments excluding bassoon, bass clarinet, and clarinet.


----------



## Juulu

Marcel said:


> You could easily be on the fence because if were being honest, the tone is not necessarily ideal for most of the instruments excluding bassoon, bass clarinet, and clarinet.


This is true. I noticed the tone in reeded instruments is a lot better than the flute for example. And I think the shorts need a bit of work. But I've been comparing the instruments to CSW both a2 and soloist and I was honestly shocked lol. Not only was the tone just as good (except for the flutes), but there weren't any wonky crossfades like you get in CSW. This was especially noticeable comparing a2 patches. With IW I could seamlessly transition from p - ff without hearing any phasing but it was really noticeable in CSW. If I'm moving my fader too slowly in CSW then the phasing becomes very prominent. My only gripe besides the flute tone is the shorts. I wish that the shorts in IW had the same character as CSW. It doesn't really feel like a player bursting air into their instrument and they lack a lot of presence. So I won't be completely removing CSW from my template yet I guess. Oh, and I think I'll stick with VHorns for saxophones for now.

It's funny though cause it seems like IW has the opposite problem that IB does. IW has great legato but the shorts need work and IB has great shorts (staccato, marcato, sforzando) but the legato needs some work haha.


----------



## SirKen

Juulu said:


> So... just bought IW. I have no idea why I was so on the fence lol


This post sounds so familiar for some reason lol


----------



## Juulu

SirKen said:


> This post sounds so familiar for some reason lol


Lol I just reread your post. Looks like we were in the same boat.


----------



## DANIELE

aaronventure said:


> There's definitely gonna be tabbing in the updated GUI but I promise I won't spread the mics over 16 pages with oversized icons and 80% empty space on the screen.
> 
> There's simply no way to do what I want to do elegantly without multiple tabs/panels.
> 
> One of the tabs will be a dedicated CC mapping page.
> 
> You will also be able to save patch settings (full or only room stuff, control stuff or mapping) into presets, share them with others, load them and even directly copy between the patches. Still trying to work out a "push settings to session" for automatic adjustment across the entire session, but it's tough because Kontakt patches don't have crosstalk.
> 
> Tweak one patch, select which settings to push, click push, press play and voila. No more endless remapping and tweaking 12 patches one after another.


This is one of the things I miss a lot. Every new update or every time I would like to do some changes I have to it for every single instrument. A really long process.

Will the updates come out in 2022 or do we have to wait for HL-3 for them too?  

I'm waiting for them to write another track.


----------



## SirKen

Just curious, which strings do people here use with Infinite series at the moment (until the eventual arrival of the Infinite Strings)?


----------



## Ethan Toavs

SirKen said:


> Just curious, which strings do people here use with Infinite series at the moment (until the eventual arrival of the Infinite Strings)?


Cinematic Studio Strings and Performance Samples' "Vista."


----------



## DivingInSpace

SirKen said:


> Just curious, which strings do people here use with Infinite series at the moment (until the eventual arrival of the Infinite Strings)?


Cinematic Studio Strings mainly. Imo they blend together pretty well.


----------



## Akora

SirKen said:


> Just curious, which strings do people here use with Infinite series at the moment (until the eventual arrival of the Infinite Strings)?


I use 8Dio Century Strings, got them during their summer sale. I find them to be really high quality strings for the price and they go very well with Infinite!


----------



## mussnig

SirKen said:


> Just curious, which strings do people here use with Infinite series at the moment (until the eventual arrival of the Infinite Strings)?


All of them plus some more - should result in a couple of thousand violins, violas, celli and basses playing at the same time which is the closest you can get to infinite strings at the moment.


----------



## DANIELE

SirKen said:


> Just curious, which strings do people here use with Infinite series at the moment (until the eventual arrival of the Infinite Strings)?


SM Strings, and I'll keep using them together with IS.


----------



## Lunatique

I'm currently contemplating getting both Infinite Woodwind and Infinite Brass, after trying out Infinite Brass and being very impressed with the playability and sound. But it seems IW is not quite at the same quality as IB? The sounds seem a bit sterile, and the saxophones seem especially lacking in liveliness. Or it's just the examples I listened to? I'd want to use them for both jazz and orchestral, and IB seems capable of handling jazz (although from I researched, to do doits you'd have use some kind of workaround with overlapped notes and pitchbend), but I'm not sure about IW--especially the saxes. 

Are there good examples showing what IW can do in a jazz setting (and especially with saxes)?


----------



## Lambchops

Lunatique said:


> I'm currently contemplating getting both Infinite Woodwind and Infinite Brass, after trying out Infinite Brass and being very impressed with the playability and sound. But it seems IW is not quite at the same quality as IB? The sounds seem a bit sterile, and the saxophones seem especially lacking in liveliness. Or it's just the examples I listened to? I'd want to use them for both jazz and orchestral, and IB seems capable of handling jazz (although from I researched, to do doits you'd have use some kind of workaround with overlapped notes and pitchbend), but I'm not sure about IW--especially the saxes.
> 
> Are there good examples showing what IW can do in a jazz setting (and especially with saxes)?


I’ve used IB and IW on jazz stuff but also used Vhorns saxes on there.


----------



## Martin S

Although I love both IW and IB, in its current state I wouldn’t use the saxes in IW for Jazz. VHorns saxes would be a much better choice, imho. But the upcoming update of IW might have better saxes; we’ll have to wait and see..


----------



## Soundbed

Lunatique said:


> I'm currently contemplating getting both Infinite Woodwind and Infinite Brass, after trying out Infinite Brass and being very impressed with the playability and sound. But it seems IW is not quite at the same quality as IB? The sounds seem a bit sterile, and the saxophones seem especially lacking in liveliness. Or it's just the examples I listened to? I'd want to use them for both jazz and orchestral, and IB seems capable of handling jazz (although from I researched, to do doits you'd have use some kind of workaround with overlapped notes and pitchbend), but I'm not sure about IW--especially the saxes.
> 
> Are there good examples showing what IW can do in a jazz setting (and especially with saxes)?


Yeah the sax is not my favorite of IW so if that’s your main use case it might be better to wait or grab something more dedicated to jazz sax. That said, I don’t have a breath controller. It might help (?) make the IW sax more convincing.


----------



## Trash Panda

Lunatique said:


> Are there good examples showing what IW can do in a jazz setting (and especially with saxes)?


I dunno if I’d call it a good example, but you can hear it in action in a jazz context starting at 1:45.


----------



## Lunatique

I'm torn on this. On one hand, I love the playability of the Infinite series, and with the black Friday discount, the bundile with both IB and IW is a great deal compared to if I were to buy other companies' similar products to fill my needs of both orchestral and jazz brass and woodwinds. But IW lacking lively jazzy feel is a concern. I could just buy now and pray and hope that Aaron will update IW to give it more jazz capabilities, or I could just buy IB and look for another woodwind solution. Or I could buy the bundle and then specifically look for other jazzy saxes to supplement.


----------



## Lunatique

Trash Panda said:


> I dunno if I’d call it a good example, but you can hear it in action in a jazz context starting at 1:45.



It does have a bit more character with the growl articulation, but overall I'm still not hearing the kind of liveliness/expressiveness I'm hoping for.


----------



## Juulu

Lunatique said:


> It does have a bit more character with the growl articulation, but overall I'm still not hearing the kind of liveliness/expressiveness I'm hoping for.


When I compared the saxes in IW to Vhorns, Vhorns was the winner. So, if you only need saxophones I think Vhorns would be your best bet since it's cheaper and saxes are the focus of that library. The only problem is, IW could be receiving a sizeable upgrade within the next few months. I'm honestly not sure how much Aaron can improve on things but it might be enough to sway your decision. And there's no telling if there will be an update sale...


----------



## Juulu

I'm not sure if there's a bundle but both Vhorns brass and saxes bought seperately should run you around $300


----------



## SirKen

Juulu said:


> I'm not sure if there's a bundle but both Vhorns brass and saxes bought seperately should run you around $300


There is an incremental in cart discount that can get up to 25% off if you purchase 10 or more products. I think 5% was the first tier for buying 2 products.


----------



## Trash Panda

Lunatique said:


> I'm torn on this. On one hand, I love the playability of the Infinite series, and with the black Friday discount, the bundile with both IB and IW is a great deal compared to if I were to buy other companies' similar products to fill my needs of both orchestral and jazz brass and woodwinds. But IW lacking lively jazzy feel is a concern. I could just buy now and pray and hope that Aaron will update IW to give it more jazz capabilities, or I could just buy IB and look for another woodwind solution. Or I could buy the bundle and then specifically look for other jazzy saxes to supplement.


If you're specifically looking for modeled/sample-modeled instruments for jazz, I think Sample Modeling Brass and VHorns saxes will be your best bet. The AV series (at the time of this post) is really better for a more classical sound due to how it was recorded (basically right at the bell - or seemingly inside the bell in some cases - in a dry environment). Since classical music is typically heard from a distance, this super-close recording through an IR approach works really, really well. Not to say the AV Infinite series _can't_ do jazzy sounding music, it just sounds better in an "in the room" sound instead of a close-mic'd sound (IMO).

In the case of pop or jazz, sometimes you want to "hear the spit" from the player, which the Sample Modeling brass does quite well since, as I understand it, it's essentially a 360 degree capture of a player in an anechoic chamber.


----------



## xenos

scoplunk said:


> I love this thing. I take it with me on the road now because I don't ever want to use these libraries without it. I'm not a wind player, but I've had a lot of experience with breath controllers starting in the DX7 days, so I'm comfortable with the whole idea of controlling dynamics with my breath while I'm playing. The only reason I mention this is that I've found that breath controllers seem to be one of those things that some people intuitively relate to and other people just don't. The TEC2 also has 3 other controllers that require physical control and I've seen comments from some people about it being too much to deal with while they're also playing lines. It all works for me and the control panel gives you a lot of ways to tailor the 4 controller curves to your preferences. So, it's a big thumbs up from me, with only a small warning that there's a learning curve and a possibility that breath controllers won't be your thing. But, if they turn out to be your thing, you're going to be very happy.


Hey, Thanks for Your opinion. To be honest im thinking about this TEC controller quite long time. I saw few clips where peoples ,use this controller and results was really nice. Aslo as i say im french horn player so in theory i should know how to "mess up" with my breath hehe 
Honestly the most important thing for me and main reason why im intresting in this kinds of device is because i think it could speed up (maybe) my workflow. Im spending really much time on editing the expression / volume/ ect all this automation . Drawing them manually is very time consuming especially in case of using Infinite Series which in my opinion is incredible and also incredible sensitive on even smaller change in expression and other parameters. So, what it matter most for me is to this breath controller works well with Infinite. By the way if i may ask You. When You purchase one from TEC..do You have some kind of warranty or something like that. In my opinion this device is not belongs to cheapest ever and i would like to know if its possible to have some warranty in case something will broken ? 



gamma-ut said:


> Personally, I find I get good results, weird as it seems, by not mapping breath/CC2 to dynamics and just relying on an expression slider or foot pedal. Using breath makes it a bit too jumpy, at least without a lot of massaging of the control-lane data before it goes into Kontakt.
> 
> However, I'm not a wind/brass player and I think the issue for me is consistency of breath pressure – you're probably going to be a lot better than me at that – ramping up and down quickly through the dynamics is not great for the way IW and IB are programmed and velocity and note length do a lot of the switching between articulations, whereas it's fine for a full physical model like SWAM, where I typically switch velocity control off completely.
> 
> What I tend to do is either adjust the decay in the TEC control panel software, which is a handy cheat for dealing with the "oh crap, I can't quite keep this up" effect or just avoid using breath for dynamics. However, I map vibrato to tilt and bite to growl or to flutter, depending on instrument or use-case. So, you can get good use out of the TEC but it comes into its own more with instruments like the SWAM series IMO.
> 
> One of the beauties of the TEC is that you can program attack and delay for the signals and smooth them out a bit to deal with instruments and sample libraries that don't play nicely with a raw breath signal, which tends to be a lot noisier than foot or modwheel control.


Thanks for Your opinion. To be honest i dont have experiance with SWAM instruments, but when i heard some demos i had feeling well its not my type of sound. To be honest, in my humble opinion Infinite series sound just better,.(at least for my taste) but maybe i will give SWAM second chance in future well see  
About this feature of set up tilt and nod to diffrent parameters in Infinte it seems very usefull to have controll on vibrato and growl at the same time. Im just wonder how to program vibrato well because in this case we have vibrato depth and rate separatelly.


----------



## Jorf88

I was in a different thread where someone asked for an example of a use-case for Wavesfactory Spectre. My prime use-case is currently for AVIB, so I thought I'd post it here since it'd be of higher general interest.

I must obviously thank @Trash Panda for leading me to this in the first place, once again.

Quick lick that I like to play with bones.
Aaron Venture infinite brass tenor trombone 1 with all of my setup (some eq, TEOTE, limiter, rendered at -3db peak)
The only thing changed in these three examples is

No Spectre at all:
View attachment AVIB_tenorbone_noSpectre_221201.mp3




A medium amount of Spectre:




View attachment AVIB_tenorbone_midSpectre_221201.mp3





A heavier amount of Spectre:




View attachment AVIB_tenorbone_heavySpectre_221201.mp3




I feel obligated to say that isn't the vanilla sound of AV. I've got some EQ going, TEOTE, external reverb (Pro-R), and a tiny bit of tape saturation.

The MIDI here is performed by hand, and identical in all cases.
I like the mid setting quite a bit there. The heavy can be nice for exposed lines on a single instrument for a little extra beef, but it's way too much across an entire ensemble.


----------



## Lord Daknight

What is it with us Infinite Kvltists having dreams about Aaron Venture? I've read so many others have them and I've had like two. Is he taking longer with the Strings because he's also developing dream projection technology?


----------



## gedlig

Must be that dream flute update.


----------



## Marcel

Lord Daknight said:


> What is it with us Infinite Kvltists having dreams about Aaron Venture? I've read so many others have them and I've had like two. Is he taking longer with the Strings because he's also developing dream projection technology?


Whatever is past half life 3, that is the new time it's releasing. Thanks.


----------



## Jamus

Juulu said:


> Not only was the tone just as good (except for the flutes), but there weren't any wonky crossfades like you get in CSW. This was especially noticeable comparing a2 patches. With IW I could seamlessly transition from p - ff without hearing any phasing but it was really noticeable in CSW. If I'm moving my fader too slowly in CSW then the phasing becomes very prominent.


Man for real this is why all my eggs are in the Infinite basket. Going back to anything else after Infinite and getting an ear full of crossfade phasing is traumatizing 😂


----------



## Soundbed

Jamus said:


> Man for real this is why all my eggs are in the Infinite basket. Going back to anything else after Infinite and getting an ear full of crossfade phasing is traumatizing 😂


On balance, I hear the "breath" and tone more CSW, and less in IW. There's other reasons I enjoy having both. IW can be more "fiddly" when you're looking for consistency and just sounding good quickly. But yes, even in the legatos where you don't change the mod wheel and it's right in a single dynamic layer; CSW can create resonances at the crossfades that get fatiguing, whereas IW is butter smooth. Tradeoffs! 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Lunatique

I ended up getting IW. The saxes kinda tame as I thought they'd be, even with the 2nd version provided that's supposed to have a more jazzy sound. I think the problem might be the upper end of the dynamic range ceiling is a little low, and recording another louder layer would help. I try to ride the growl and flutter a bit during passages to give it a bit more grunt, but course you can't just rely on growl and flutter to spice it up when the really loud timbre is missing.


----------



## aaronventure

gedlig said:


> Must be that dream flute update.


Don't forget the saxes.


----------



## Lord Daknight

aaronventure said:


> Don't forget the saxes.


Don't forget the Hecklephones


----------



## gedlig

aaronventure said:


> Don't forget the saxes.


*Kenny G plays menacingly*


----------



## sound team apk

Jorf88 said:


> I was in a different thread where someone asked for an example of a use-case for Wavesfactory Spectre. My prime use-case is currently for AVIB, so I thought I'd post it here since it'd be of higher general interest.
> 
> I like the mid setting quite a bit there. The heavy can be nice for exposed lines on a single instrument for a little extra beef, but it's way too much across an entire ensemble.


FWIW: I demoed Spectre a couple of weeks ago to compare it with what I do with Saturn 2. I've been using Saturn 2 to do almost exactly what @Jorf88 is doing here in the "medium" example, and with surprisingly (or perhaps not-surprisingly) similar settings.

Soundwise, I found the two hard to distinguish for my use case (I'm not going to give sound examples, because they're lost, but maybe someday I will make some). Both have the colors I typically use (clean, tape, or warm tube), and I didn't notice a significant quality difference. Maybe someone more discerning would 

Ultimately I agree with @Trash Panda and others that Spectre is a bit nicer, because its whole UI and setup is very tailored for this use, and you get good visual feedback on how it's shaping the sound. Saturn 2 is a bit more fiddly.

It's conceivable that Spectre's workflow gives you a bit more control, though for my purposes I didn't find that one was more precise than the other.
It's an odd omission that "Spectre" doesn't have a spectrograph, but I expect many of us already have a plugin in the chain with a spectrograph anyway.
I continued to resist buying Spectre (for now ......). But since this is my main use of the multi-band functionality in Saturn, if I could go back and do it again, I'd personally be better off with Spectre for $50 than Saturn 2 for whatever it cost me (more than $50, but I forget how much -- I already had several FF plugins when I bought it).


----------



## Markrs

I have officially joined Team Aaron Ventures or is it Team Infinite Series, after following this thread for over 2 years ❤️


----------



## Trash Panda

Markrs said:


> I have officially joined Team Aaron Ventures or is it Team Infinite Series, after following this thread for over 2 years ❤️


----------



## Loïc D

Sorry for the cross-pot.
FWIW, I’ve done a mockup of Yoda’s Theme using only Infinite for Brass & WW.
I’ve also uploaded separate stems.






Mockup - Yoda's Theme [Reveal+STEMS]


Hi folks, These last days, I've been busy doing a mockup of Yoda's Theme, from the Empire Strikes Back by John Williams (1980) in case you lived on another planet for 50 years It was a way to test proof my template and also to study the Master's awesome-detailed-genius writing. It's my first...




vi-control.net





In the hindsight I guess I could have achieved a better rendition for the WW.


----------



## Terry93D

mussnig said:


> All of them plus some more - should result in a couple of thousand violins, violas, celli and basses playing at the same time which is the closest you can get to infinite strings at the moment.


I use the Tokyo Scoring Strings primarily. Before that, I used LASS, and I still pull LASS out once in a while.


----------



## ibanez1

Markrs said:


> I have officially joined Team Aaron Ventures or is it Team Infinite Series, after following this thread for over 2 years ❤️


Welcome to the family. May your compositions be forever free of machine gun effect and crossfades.


----------



## Tanarri

Finally upgraded to the whole bundle. 🤘

The playability of Woodwinds is EXCEPTIONAL (as is the Brass). Something like Flute 1 can do really good sounding short notes, but the bass instruments need more work from Aaron in this regard. Their shorts are quite mushy, compared to how snappy they can sound.
Can't wait for new versions, they are always a huge leap forward, it feels like cheating not paying for them, so I'll just buy every new library (to compensate and support, not because it feels like I'm cheating someone...).

I was about to buy Embertone's solo strings or possibly CSS 1.7, but then I stopped myself and I'll just wait for IS. 👍


----------



## Tanarri

ibanez1 said:


> Welcome to the family. May your compositions be forever free of machine gun effect and crossfades.


IW also adds +10000000 bonus to Williams Woodwinds Runs.


----------



## Lord Daknight

Tanarri said:


> I was about to buy Embertone's solo strings or possibly CSS 1.7, but then I stopped myself and I'll just wait for IS. 👍


*Palpatine voice* 
Gooooood....


----------



## kevinh

So I had a bottle of really nice red wine as a holiday gift and im now owner of bundle. Give it a few more minutes and I’m sure I’ll end up with a wind controller and saturation plugin as well hahha….


----------



## shawnsingh

For saturation plugins I think it's whiskey, not wine. For breath controller I think it's margaritas.


----------



## sound team apk

shawnsingh said:


> For saturation plugins I think it's whiskey, not wine. For breath controller I think it's margaritas.


Warning: @shawnsingh has no idea what he's talking about. I didn't drink any whiskey or margaritas, and I still ended up with a breath controller. Be careful.


----------



## gedlig

Be advised regarding honey liquor. Made me forget I already own IB and IW, and bought the winds bundle again.


----------



## DANIELE

I decided: since IS won't come out so soon I'll buy an RTX 4090 instead, just to play Half Life 3.


----------



## JimDiGritz

I'm pretty sure I'm committing a foul sin by asking this in this AV thread however....

Can anyone give a realistic comparison between AV and the new Soundpaint HAL instruments?

The current Infinite bundle is very tempting however I've been quite impressed with the new Soundpaint HAL Alto Flute.. and was holding out to see what the rest of the 8dio orchestral instruments sounded like...

I'm struggling with keyswitch and RAM hell trying to get BBCSO Core and HOOPUS into a workable template... 

For those that have IW and SP Alto Flute - are these two comparable?


----------



## Jerner

The flutes are the weakest part of IW in my book. The playability is second to none as you would expect but the sound isn't the best. Hopefully they'll get some love in the upcoming update.


----------



## Markrs

JimDiGritz said:


> I'm struggling with keyswitch and RAM hell trying to get BBCSO Core and HOOPUS into a workable template...


I find BBCSO is rubbish for RAM, but I consider their Rompler one of the worst, though it does have multiple ways to switch articulation. I don’t have those issues with Opus, everything can be loaded in purge, they have lite and max articulations if RAM and CPU are an issue and lots of options for switching articulations.

Even though I love HO Opus I have bought Infinite Series, SWAM and Audiobro MSS because I want playable light instruments (MSS has a playable version a bit like Infinite Series as one of the patches).


----------



## JimDiGritz

Markrs said:


> I find BBCSO is rubbish for RAM, but I consider their Rompler one of the worst, though it does have multiple ways to switch articulation. I don’t have those issues with Opus, everything can be loaded in purge, they have lite and max articulations if RAM and CPU are an issue and lots of options for switching articulations.
> 
> Even though I love HO Opus I have bought Infinite Series, SWAM and Audiobro MSS because I want playable light instruments (MSS has a playable version a bit like Infinite Series as one of the patches).


Thanks, I'm using Reaticulate for BBCSO and HOOPUS, but perhaps it's a testament to the deep sampling but comparing a similar number of articulations the 3 trumpet patch in BBCSO Core is 468Mb vs HOOPUS at a whopping 1.4Gb....






***EDIT oh. Wow. I just realised what @Markrs meant by loading HOOPUS in Purge mode..!***

That's not then taking the HOURS I'm spending building Reaticulate banks to switch the HOOPUS articulations

My template looks like it may already be over 150Gb if I include the main HOOPUS instruments with the main articulations....

IW&IB would probably max out at 2Gb for all the Brass and WW instruments.. plus I wouldn't need to build articulation maps...


----------



## Markrs

JimDiGritz said:


> Thanks, I'm using Reaticulate for BBCSO and HOOPUS, but perhaps it's a testament to the deep sampling but comparing a similar number of articulations the 3 trumpet patch in BBCSO Core is 468Mb vs HOOPUS at a whopping 1.4Gb....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***EDIT oh. Wow. I just realised what @Markrs meant by loading HOOPUS in Purge mode..!***
> 
> That's not then taking the HOURS I'm spending building Reaticulate banks to switch the HOOPUS articulations
> 
> My template looks like it may already be over 150Gb if I include the main HOOPUS instruments with the main articulations....
> 
> IW&IB would probably max out at 2Gb for all the Brass and WW instruments.. plus I wouldn't need to build articulation maps...


In the main settings you can select that all instruments load in purge. I think it is the "no pre-loading" option.

HOOPUS is of course still very large, but again you can just download the articulations you want, you don't need everything and you can load into memory only the mic positions you want.

Below is a video on adding HOOPUS to rearticulate, plus below the video is the rearticulate files he created.







East West Hollywood Orchestra - Google Drive







drive.google.com


----------



## DANIELE

Jerner said:


> The flutes are the weakest part of IW in my book. The playability is second to none as you would expect but the sound isn't the best. Hopefully they'll get some love in the upcoming update.


I like the flutes but I agree with you, they need some more love and I'm sure they will get it.


----------



## JimDiGritz

Another question - can anyone point me to a video with a good selection of exposed IW and/or IB solo's?

I've searched YouTube but most of the videos are a) 2 years old, and I think that there have been some updates, and b) full orchestrations.

Cheers!


----------



## JimDiGritz

Markrs said:


> In the main settings you can select that all instruments load in purge. I think it is the "no pre-loading" option.
> 
> HOOPUS is of course still very large, but again you can just download the articulations you want, you don't need everything and you can load into memory only the mic positions you want.
> 
> Below is a video on adding HOOPUS to rearticulate, plus below the video is the rearticulate files he created.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> East West Hollywood Orchestra - Google Drive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com



Thanks - I don't want to take this thread OT - so if you're able to continue this I'll post some more thoughts/questions over at https://vi-control.net/community/th...od-orchestra-opus-edition-diamond-299.133103/


----------



## M0rdechai

JimDiGritz said:


> - I don't want to take this thread OT -


lol

we are waaaaay past that, don't worry 

just shout "so, when is IS coming?" every once in a while and you'll be fine


----------



## Nando Florestan

One of the problems in the flute in Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 is the first partial that is too loud. But that's impossible to EQ because a flute spans 3 octaves and we only want to tame the first harmonic. I had no plugin capable of finding the fundamental to lower it. Now I have a pretty good solution: DSEQ.

Add DSEQ. To the left of the Threshold dial there's a little A. Press it so it turns blue. (This thing adapts to instruments that play from ppp to fff.) You can already test and hear results. Adjust the slope to -9 (-7 at most). This tells it to focus on changing lower frequencies. This setting is good for the C flutes, but the alto flute doesn't need so much, so you can raise the threshold from 0 to 5, which affects the sound LESS, and this setting I think helps all Infinite 2.0 flutes. If you find better settings please share.

While this improves the timbre a bit, I still reach for the AudDict flute first. The Infinite flute needs more magic in the overtones.


----------



## Tanarri

Nando Florestan said:


> AudDict flute


Still the best sounding flute on the market. 

I can't wait for the IW update, but I still need to get Kontakt 6 or 7 first.


----------



## I like music

Tanarri said:


> Still the best sounding flute on the market.
> 
> I can't wait for the IW update, but I still need to get Kontakt 6 or 7 first.


Wow, yes a good sounding flute indeed. Woodwinds are cheap too!

Quick question - is the vibrato baked in or is it controllable (Auddict)?


----------



## Mikro93

I like music said:


> Wow, yes a good sounding flute indeed. Woodwinds are cheap too!
> 
> Quick question - is the vibrato baked in or is it controllable (Auddict)?


It's on or off, two different articulations accessible by keyswitching


----------



## TomaeusD

Today is the last day I can deliberate over the bundle.


----------



## Ricgus3

TomaeusD said:


> Today is the last day I can deliberate over the bundle.


It is a game changer, was for me atleast and love it so much! Playing with a wind or breath controller is good to get even more realism out of it. I have been using them for both orchestral stuff and jazzy stuff!


----------



## Bollen

TomaeusD said:


> Today is the last day I can deliberate over the bundle.


Yeah, same here... I'm still in two minds. I have SampleModeling strings and brass and VSL woodwinds, so I don't think I need it... 🤔. Yet...


----------



## TomaeusD

Ricgus3 said:


> It is a game changer, was for me atleast and love it so much! Playing with a wind or breath controller is good to get even more realism out of it. I have been using them for both orchestral stuff and jazzy stuff!


I know I could definitely use it for composing and orchestration on the road, but I already have so many great libraries and a decent workflow for blending physically modeled instruments with my sample libraries.


----------



## TomaeusD

Bollen said:


> Yeah, same here... I'm still in two minds. I have SampleModeling strings and brass and VSL woodwinds, so I don't think I need it... 🤔. Yet...


Same here, except I use CSW and Spitfire for woodwinds. Phasing in woodwinds is something I can't unhear since I've frequented this thread.  It's just hard when I notice weird tone and legatos in IW and the occassional synthetic buzzing in IB. I know it will continue to improve, though.


----------



## Ricgus3

TomaeusD said:


> I know I could definitely use it for composing and orchestration on the road, but I already have so many great libraries and a decent workflow for blending physically modeled instruments with my sample libraries.



View attachment jazz jam-001.mp3


Soundcloud seems to be down but here is a Jazzy Jam improvisation i made with the Infinite Trumpet and made a short jazz track. Using an EWI


----------



## Bollen

TomaeusD said:


> Same here, except I use CSW and Spitfire for woodwinds. Phasing in woodwinds is something I can't unhear since I've frequented this thread.  It's just hard when I notice weird tone and legatos in IW and the occassional synthetic buzzing in IB. I know it will continue to improve, though.


VSL has dynamic patches (cresc, dim, fp, etc.) which you can stretch. I also use a combination of Expression and Master Filter set with a high ramp, so that when you get about halfway down the Expression slider the sound gets darker. It's good enough in fast passages or in Ensemble setting.


----------



## TomaeusD

Ricgus3 said:


> View attachment jazz jam-001.mp3
> 
> 
> Soundcloud seems to be down but here is a Jazzy Jam improvisation i made with the Infinite Trumpet and made a short jazz track. Using an EWI


Nice work! I already have SM Trumpet and VHorns which I'm very happy with for jazz, so it makes the decision harder for me.


----------



## Ricgus3

TomaeusD said:


> Nice work! I already have SM Trumpet and VHorns which I'm very happy with for jazz, so it makes the decision harder for me.


Ye the Vhorns sound amazing! I really hope the new IW update makes the flutes Jazzified aswell. I am not really making it work like i can with the trumpet or trombone, also wish it had a flugelhorn in the barss, might be coming @aaronventure ?

But what I found works really well for the winds is folkmusic and more "nordic Jazz, Alto flute and Bass clarinet are amazing sounding!

Here is a Alto flute (responds really well with my ornaments) folky jam i did a few month ago when i picked it up:


View attachment 78868-da353ca1587345478f261b222880603a.mp3


----------



## TomaeusD

Ricgus3 said:


> Ye the Vhorns sound amazing! I really hope the new IW update makes the flutes Jazzified aswell. I am not really making it work like i can with the trumpet or trombone, also wish it had a flugelhorn in the barss, might be coming @aaronventure ?
> 
> But what I found works really well for the winds is folkmusic and more "nordic Jazz, Alto flute and Bass clarinet are amazing sounding!
> 
> Here is a Alto flute (responds really well with my ornaments) folky jam i did a few month ago when i picked it up:
> 
> 
> View attachment 78868-da353ca1587345478f261b222880603a.mp3


Sounds great! The legato transitions are much more convincing in this, and I do like the tone of the alto flute more than others. I'm wondering how much you can crank up keynoise and breath, or is it just keynoise?


----------



## Ricgus3

TomaeusD said:


> Sounds great! The legato transitions are much more convincing in this, and I do like the tone of the alto flute more than others. I'm wondering how much you can crank up keynoise and breath, or is it just keynoise?


Just the key noise! I think I has I set at standard value. Can crank it up even more!


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Ricgus3 said:


> Just the key noise! I think I has I set at standard value. Can crank it up even more!



You can crank up the breath noise too. You just need to go under the hood and change it. I think Aaron said he would be adding the option back to the main interface with the next update.


----------



## Ricgus3

Jonathan Moray said:


> You can crank up the breath noise too. You just need to go under the hood and change it. I think Aaron said he would be adding the option back to the main interface with the next update.


Oh that is great! When jazzing or folking around I always want more air/breath and key noises. But when using it in an orchestral setting I want minimum breath and key noises


----------



## Trash Panda

Since we're on the topic of flutes, can I bother the group to rank the three options below from least to most favorite? I realize the programming is not ideal. Just a quick test I wanted to run.

Mystery Flute 1:
View attachment Flute Blind Test 1.mp3


Mystery Flute 2:
View attachment Flute Blind Test 2.mp3


Mystery Flute 3:
View attachment Flute Blind Test 3.mp3


----------



## TomaeusD

1, 3, 2 for me. I like the transitions the most in 1.


----------



## liquidlino

Trash Panda said:


> Since we're on the topic of flutes, can I bother the group to rank the three options below from least to most favorite? I realize the programming is not ideal. Just a quick test I wanted to run.
> 
> Mystery Flute 1:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 2:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 2.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 3:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 3.mp3


1,3,2 for me. I'm guessing 2 is VSL Syzd/VI Flute I?


----------



## Bee_Abney

2, 1, 3 for me. Though I'd like 2 a little better on a slightly lower dynamic layer (if that's available).

3 sounded a little too smooth to me. 1 was a little bland, but good. And 3 had life in it. I'm not sure if 2. is really the best for the context of background music. But for part of a score where the music is filling most or all of the soundscape, I'd go with 2.

EDIT: correcting a typo where I'd hit 3 on two occasions when I meant to hit 2. TWO is my favourite here.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> Since we're on the topic of flutes, can I bother the group to rank the three options below from least to most favorite? I realize the programming is not ideal. Just a quick test I wanted to run.
> 
> Mystery Flute 1:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 2:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 2.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 3:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 3.mp3



1. BWW (Not sure if it's SOLO EXP or the new BWW version, but the strange overlapping legato and volume dip sounds like Orchestral Tools legato)
2. IW (Probably Flute 2)
3. IW (Probably Flute 1)


----------



## Trash Panda

Was asking for preference of sound, not guesses as to what they are. I'll reveal in a bit.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> Was asking for preference of sound, not guesses as to what they are. I'll reveal in a bit.


Much more fun to guess and be completely wrong.

If I had to pick, probably n2 but I would rather not choose at all because neither is great in this example. 2, 3 are the only ones that have passable legato, although somewhat artificial sounding, but the first is just a mess. The first has OK tone (a bit too soft, almost sounds like someone rolled off the high-end), but nothing more.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Trash Panda said:


> Since we're on the topic of flutes, can I bother the group to rank the three options below from least to most favorite? I realize the programming is not ideal. Just a quick test I wanted to run.
> 
> Mystery Flute 1:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 2:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 2.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 3:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 3.mp3


1 first and then at some distance 3 and then at some even more distance 2.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

doctoremmet said:


>



Damn the fluid brass is so much better to my ears, thanks for sharing


----------



## liquidlino

ALittleNightMusic said:


> 1 first and then at some distance 3 and then at some even more distance 2.


For 1 - are you not bothered by the overlapping samples that sound like two flutes playing at times?


----------



## shawnsingh

Trash Panda said:


> Since we're on the topic of flutes, can I bother the group to rank the three options below from least to most favorite? I realize the programming is not ideal. Just a quick test I wanted to run.
> 
> Mystery Flute 1:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 2:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 2.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 3:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 3.mp3



Rating performance nuances of a virtual instrument: I prefer #2 and #3, then #1

Rating the room tone and mix, if intended for solo: I prefer #2, #3 is equally good but the wetter sound is not my personal preference, then #1.

Rating the room tone and mid, if intended to be used as an in-situ flute in an orchestra: I'd prefer #1, then #2, then #3

Flute 1 sounds like an in situ wet-sampled instrument, but credit to whatever it is, it's thankfully not phasey. Room tone is nice, in particular the flute feels like it has that distance into the stage that would probably sound right with an orchestration. But the tone feels rough around the legato edges, which in my personal opinion is the second-most bothersome issue of in-situ sampling, second to phasing problems. I think it's just plain hard to create correct release samples for legato playing when there's reverb baked in. For a solo situation, that is a stronger dealbreaker than the disadvantages of 2 and 3. I agree I suspect #1 it's from OT like @Jonathan Moray guessed.

Flute 2 sounds like a more neutral short room (Bersa? or algorithmic reverb? or both?). I personally like this tone. However, when comparing to #1, there's just something about it that feels like wet and dry are just not melting into each other. Still, the shorter room response and neutral blend feels more natural to me than #3. Some of the legato transitions sound semi-modeled to me (like a pitch bend kind of effect that doesn't seem like quite the right way to model a legato transition on a flute), which is not too bad a dealbreaker, especially if masked by an orchestration, but for solo, it'd be something I'd try to program around if possible. If this is IW, would it work to just increase the note velocity to shorten those transitions?

Flute 3 seems to have the exact same performance nuances as #2, but just a bigger/wetter room sound. In some ways it's nice and spacious, but when comparing immediately to the other one, I feel that it's actually further accenting the mismatch between wet and dry. This would be great for a featured solo flute, but maybe it doesn't feel like theres the right "stage distance" even with the wetness.


----------



## Trash Panda

shawnsingh said:


> Rating the room tone and mix, if intended for solo: I prefer #2, #3 is equally good but the wetter sound is not my personal preference, then #1.
> 
> Rating the room tone and mid, if intended to be used as an in-situ flute in an orchestra: I'd prefer #1, then #2, then #3


Thank you. This was what I was concerned about - the tone and room sound. 

I fully expect a slapped together performance on a QWERTY keyboard with flat CC1 data to not sound like a quality performance.


----------



## mgaewsj

I may sound a bit harsh but #1 is the only one that resembles a flute to me


----------



## shawnsingh

BTW some references for performance nuances (definitely not references for "room tone" though)

ref 1 - ok so far so good

ref 2 - this the most professional example linked here, but they added reverb on top *facepalm*. But clearly shows how clean legato transitions can be for a good performer

ref 3 - please don't knock this kid's performance. If you can look past that, this kind of playing I think is a great way to hear more of the quirks of the instrument that can help us think how to program the MIDI

ref 4 - at this point I'm thinking, how many examples of a flute playing this that are out there =)

Common point among all these - all flute players are doing more retonguing than we might have expected, especially for slower legato and for notes that jump to larger intervals.


----------



## shawnsingh

Trash Panda said:


> with flat CC1 data


If this explains the lack of phasing, then as soon as you use it, this might still be a dealbreaker against #1 in favor of #2 or #3... I think the "distance" feeling can still be achieved with a 3-4 different mixing attempts, trying to use EQ to scoop low mids and drop the highs, or trying different kinds of verbs, trying some early reflection panning model like Precedence. In my personal opinion the overlapping sound of releases and risk of phasing just aren't worth the perfect room tone when other solutions are getting close and we can attempt to take it a step further with our own 'verbs and mixing attempts.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

liquidlino said:


> For 1 - are you not bothered by the overlapping samples that sound like two flutes playing at times?


Not particularly. I care more about the tone. The other two sounded like sine waves to me.


----------



## Petrucci

2,3,1 for me))


----------



## Trash Panda

Interesting results on preferences. Here are the mystery flutes.



Spoiler: Listen to the examples and respond before revealing to avoid bias



1) Berlin Woodwinds Flute 1
2) Infinite Woodwinds Flute 1 run dry through Samplicity Berlin Studio with each signal EQ'd to more closely match #1
3) Infinite Woodwinds Mixed Mic 3 in Mozarteum.


----------



## Tanarri

TomaeusD said:


> Today is the last day I can deliberate over the bundle.


If you want to do orchestral work in the manner of Williams, Goldsmith, Horner, Herrmann or Mozart, there are no better libraries, by a huge margin. Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, or whatever have you, they just _can't_ do what IB and IW can. Samplemodeling instruments are great playability-wise, but Infinite B and W sound way better in the orchestral context. Even if used just for layering, Infinite stuff brings an unparalleled level of expression into orchestral mock-ups. And even if some instruments still need some work, Aaron is doing great with the upgrades, which are huge and free.


----------



## Ricgus3

Trash Panda said:


> Since we're on the topic of flutes, can I bother the group to rank the three options below from least to most favorite? I realize the programming is not ideal. Just a quick test I wanted to run.
> 
> Mystery Flute 1:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 2:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 2.mp3
> 
> 
> Mystery Flute 3:
> View attachment Flute Blind Test 3.mp3


3 sounded the best to me. Most real to my ears

1 the least, 1 sounded like the tail of the samples hanged into each other. 

2 was pretty good


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> Interesting results on preferences. Here are the mystery flutes.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Listen to the examples and respond before revealing to avoid bias
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Berlin Woodwinds Flute 1
> 2) Infinite Woodwinds Flute 1 run dry through Samplicity Berlin Studio with each signal EQ'd to more closely match #1
> 3) Infinite Woodwinds Mixed Mic 3 in Mozarteum.



BWW Flute 1, really? Is this the SINE or KONTAKT version? If it's KONTAKT, was it the original or revive version?

I've been eyeing Samplicity's verb for a little while. I really like the way it sounds and it uses a similar approach to Infinite; different IRs for the different mics. But if I understand correctly, it only uses one IR per-section, not one per instrument like Infinite? So it can't be a replacement for the Infinite approach since you would get phasing. That's correct, right? I'm not missing anything. It could be used as a "glue" for all the sections or as a reverb for the solos,.

Fingers crossed Aaron got access to Teldex or a similar stage to capture IRs for a new room.


----------



## Lord Daknight

Jonathan Moray said:


> Fingers crossed Aaron got access to Teldex or a similar stage to capture IRs for a new room.


Teldex probably has a exclusive deal with VSL I'm thinking. Aaron said that Teldex declined to let him capture there


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Lord Daknight said:


> Teldex probably has a exclusive deal with VSL I'm thinking. Aaron said that Teldex declined to let him capture there



Do you mean Orchestral Tools? Or does VSL have Teldex in their MIR plugin? I don't think there's any exclusivity. Samplicity just captured some IRs there for their plugin, Altiverb has some Teldex IRs as well.

Too bad he was declined. I hope he finds some other space that's similar to something like Abbey Road or Teldex. There are a lot of good-sounding rooms out there.


----------



## Lord Daknight

Jonathan Moray said:


> Do you mean Orchestral Tools? Or does VSL have Teldex in their MIR plugin? I don't think there's any exclusivity. Samplicity just captured some IRs there for their plugin, Altiverb has some Teldex IRs as well.
> 
> Too bad he was declined. I hope he finds some other space that's similar to something like Abbey Road or Teldex. There are a lot of good-sounding rooms out there.


Huh... I guess Teldex will let companies do it but to them Aaron is just some dude. 
Little do they know he's the Infinite One... How about we get the cult together and make Teldex an offer they can't refuse...?


----------



## Trash Panda

Jonathan Moray said:


> BWW Flute 1, really? Is this the SINE or KONTAKT version? If it's KONTAKT, was it the original or revive version?
> 
> I've been eyeing Samplicity's verb for a little while. I really like the way it sounds and it uses a similar approach to Infinite; different IRs for the different mics. But if I understand correctly, it only uses one IR per-section, not one per instrument like Infinite? So it can't be a replacement for the Infinite approach since you would get phasing. That's correct, right? I'm not missing anything. It could be used as a "glue" for all the sections or as a reverb for the solos,.
> 
> Fingers crossed Aaron got access to Teldex or a similar stage to capture IRs for a new room.


Yes, #1 is BWW Flute 1 in SINE. If the disbelief is due to the flat/bad performance, please don't get hung up on that. I was purely seeking opinions on the tone/room sound.

You are correct that Berlin Studio is per instrument group (for strings and brass) or entire sections (woodwinds, perc, choir). As to whether you would get phasing or not as a result of running multiple AV instruments through the same IR in an external plugin, I'd have to defer to @aaronventure for official word. It hasn't seemed to be an issue in my tests.

Curious if the experiment below has yielded better results to more attuned ears than mine. Does one of these seem more "glued" to the room?

One of these uses the Studio Mix Mic 1 in the Soloist position, the other is the same position but only the Close Mic is soloed.

Test 1:
View attachment AV IWW Flute 1 SBS Mix Mic.mp3


Test 2:
View attachment AV IWW Flute 1 SBS Close Mic.mp3




Spoiler: Listen first



Test 1 = Mic Mix 1
Test 2 = Close Mic only


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> Yes, #1 is BWW Flute 1 in SINE. If the disbelief is due to the flat/bad performance, please don't get hung up on that. I was purely seeking opinions on the tone/room sound.



No, no, it wasn't the performance. I've heard BWW Flute 1 in a few mixes I've done and it didn't sound the same, but that's because I believe SINE only has the Revive version with the new recordings and mics. I could be wrong.



Trash Panda said:


> You are correct that Berlin Studio is per instrument group (for strings and brass) or entire sections (woodwinds, perc, choir). As to whether you would get phasing or not as a result of running multiple AV instruments through the same IR in an external plugin, I'd have to defer to @aaronventure for official word. It hasn't seemed to be an issue in my tests.



You most likely would. Each IR for Infinite is unique precisely because if you use the same IR for multiple instruments you will get phasing since an IR is basically just a sample of the room, and playing the same sample over itself would create phasing. That's why you should never have instruments on the same stage position in Infinite either if instruments are very similar and they will be playing in unison.

Furthermore, the difference in IR creates a noticeable difference in the sound and timber of the instruments so when dealing with ensembles that could be quite detrimental to the overall cohesion of the ensemble.


----------



## CG Smith

Trash Panda said:


> You are correct that Berlin Studio is per instrument group (for strings and brass) or entire sections (woodwinds, perc, choir). As to whether you would get phasing or not as a result of running multiple AV instruments through the same IR in an external plugin, I'd have to defer to @aaronventure for official word. It hasn't seemed to be an issue in my tests.


Might it be better to route all the woodwind section through IW Studio with Close Mic only (but each instrument in a different position) and into a Woodwind Bus, then send the Bus to Berlin Studio woodwind section?

You then have a bit of spread amongst the woodwinds but without adding a lot of room?
You may even want to spread the woodwinds out across the Studio positions, as these will then be condensed into the Berlin Studio woodwind section (if that makes sense?).


----------



## shawnsingh

Trash Panda said:


> Yes, #1 is BWW Flute 1 in SINE. If the disbelief is due to the flat/bad performance, please don't get hung up on that. I was purely seeking opinions on the tone/room sound.
> 
> You are correct that Berlin Studio is per instrument group (for strings and brass) or entire sections (woodwinds, perc, choir). As to whether you would get phasing or not as a result of running multiple AV instruments through the same IR in an external plugin, I'd have to defer to @aaronventure for official word. It hasn't seemed to be an issue in my tests.
> 
> Curious if the experiment below has yielded better results to more attuned ears than mine. Does one of these seem more "glued" to the room?
> 
> One of these uses the Studio Mix Mic 1 in the Soloist position, the other is the same position but only the Close Mic is soloed.
> 
> Test 1:
> View attachment AV IWW Flute 1 SBS Mix Mic.mp3
> 
> 
> Test 2:
> View attachment AV IWW Flute 1 SBS Close Mic.mp3



Are you going for an in-situ sound, or a soloist sound? I just feel there's some missing feeling of distance for an in-situ sound. As a solo sound, both feel great to my ears, depends a lot on what else would go around the flute as to which one might be better.


----------



## Trash Panda

CG Smith said:


> Might it be better to route all the woodwind section through IW Studio with Close Mic only (but each instrument in a different position) and into a Woodwind Bus, then send the Bus to Berlin Studio woodwind section?


Maybe! That's the idea behind these experiments - to figure out the approach that yields the best results. 



CG Smith said:


> You then have a bit of spread amongst the woodwinds but without adding a lot of room?
> You may even want to spread the woodwinds out across the Studio positions, as these will then be condensed into the Berlin Studio woodwind section (if that makes sense?).


Will try this out too. I'm not hearing a marked difference in Studio Close versus Mic Mix 1 when put in situ, but the latter seems to have a slightly smaller CPU hit. Will play around with the seating positions and see how the results sound.



shawnsingh said:


> Are you going for an in-situ sound, or a soloist sound? I just feel there's some missing feeling of distance for an in-situ sound. As a solo sound, both feel great to my ears, depends a lot on what else would go around the flute as to which one might be better.


Going for an in situ sound. I'll play around with the in situ positions and see if that comes out better.


----------



## swinkler

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but does anyone know if these libs will be on sale again for Holiday sales?


----------



## Trash Panda

swinkler said:


> Sorry to interrupt the thread, but does anyone know if these libs will be on sale again for Holiday sales?


There was one last year, but not the year before. You're probably best off emailing Aaron directly.


----------



## scoplunk

Nando Florestan said:


> One of the problems in the flute in Infinite Woodwinds 2.0 is the first partial that is too loud. But that's impossible to EQ because a flute spans 3 octaves and we only want to tame the first harmonic. I had no plugin capable of finding the fundamental to lower it. Now I have a pretty good solution: DSEQ.


I've been thinking about this post and finally got some time to experiment today. I know almost nothing about programming Kontakt, but I'm pretty experienced with programming synths and other samplers, so I thought I'd take a look under the hood and see if there was any way to address the "too much fundamental" issue - which is what I think is being referred to here as the first partial. The good news is that it is possible to address this problem without using any external plug ins. I made a version of Flute 1 that has the fundamental reduced and the noise turned up. Is it better? I have no idea. It's different and works better in the context of the piece I'm working on for this particular phrase. The noise volume and fundamental volume are freely adjustable, so this is just where I wound up. Anyway, I thought I'd throw these out there and see if anyone has any suggestions. It isn't a night and day difference, but might be interesting.

Flute 1:
View attachment IW Flute 1.mp3


Flute 1 Mod:
View attachment IW Flute 1 Mod.mp3


----------



## Jonathan Moray

scoplunk said:


> I've been thinking about this post and finally got some time to experiment today. I know almost nothing about programming Kontakt, but I'm pretty experienced with programming synths and other samplers, so I thought I'd take a look under the hood and see if there was any way to address the "too much fundamental" issue - which is what I think is being referred to here as the first partial. The good news is that it is possible to address this problem without using any external plug ins. I made a version of Flute 1 that has the fundamental reduced and the noise turned up. Is it better? I have no idea. It's different and works better in the context of the piece I'm working on for this particular phrase. The noise volume and fundamental volume are freely adjustable, so this is just where I wound up. Anyway, I thought I'd throw these out there and see if anyone has any suggestions. It isn't a night and day difference, but might be interesting.
> 
> Flute 1:
> View attachment IW Flute 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Flute 1 Mod:
> View attachment IW Flute 1 Mod.mp3



How did you do this?

Years ago I tried to create a tracking EQ in Kontakt but gave up after a little while because I couldn't get it to work the way I wanted and didn't want to spend hours on it. But this sound pretty good. Is it just a normal EQ in Kontakt and how do you target only the fundamental?


----------



## shawnsingh

scoplunk said:


> I've been thinking about this post and finally got some time to experiment today. I know almost nothing about programming Kontakt, but I'm pretty experienced with programming synths and other samplers, so I thought I'd take a look under the hood and see if there was any way to address the "too much fundamental" issue - which is what I think is being referred to here as the first partial. The good news is that it is possible to address this problem without using any external plug ins. I made a version of Flute 1 that has the fundamental reduced and the noise turned up. Is it better? I have no idea. It's different and works better in the context of the piece I'm working on for this particular phrase. The noise volume and fundamental volume are freely adjustable, so this is just where I wound up. Anyway, I thought I'd throw these out there and see if anyone has any suggestions. It isn't a night and day difference, but might be interesting.
> 
> Flute 1:
> View attachment IW Flute 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Flute 1 Mod:
> View attachment IW Flute 1 Mod.mp3



Just musing about this in writing.

This is really cool. Though personally I prefer the un-modded example, I don't think that detracts from this idea. I feel like the modded version might still benefit from more EQ on higher partials too.

So if I understand what you're describing, you're talking about EQ where key-tracking modulates the frequency position of the EQ bands? It's very interesting, I think might be very similar to the timbral shaping feature used in SampleModeling instruments.

I realize now, a tilt EQ (i.e. an EQ that applies a 3-6 dB slope per octave for a broad range of frequencies) would also be implicitly key tracking, even though it's a static EQ - the tilt would mean that the same relative change to partials would be there for any fundamental frequency. But this tilt approach is only limited to a few ways of adjusting partials relative to each other.

The key-tracked EQ method seems like it could be a more powerful general method of adjusting strength of different partials, and it may have the added benefit of not necessarily affecting noise/breath/keyclick parts of the sound.

However, then I also can imagine some limitations with this - flute in the low register being a great example. I bet that relative strength of partials would change when playing at different registers - the very low register of the flute may have different partials relative to each other. I wonder if this effect would already be reflected well enough by the samples of different registers and velocity levels though.


----------



## scoplunk

Yes, this is just a single band eq that's tracking the keyboard on only the sustain and legato groups and is targeting the fundamental. I had problems at the beginning with the tracking because 100% tracking isn't actually a 1:1 track between pitch and eq frequency. After a little experimenting, I got the right value and then it worked great. This is just a straight linear key track, but it looks like there's a table for the key tracking, so you could theoretically build a custom track if you wanted to target certain ranges.

I didn't mention it in the original post, but I added another single band eq with the intention of having it track the upper harmonics. I think that the quieter fundamental made the 3k harmonics sound a little harsh to me, so my idea was to reduce them in the lower ranges. But, I wound up preferring to just bring them down everywhere, so I reduced the key tracking to 0. I left the key tracking assigned, though, in case I changed my mind later.

I'll attach a snapshot in case anyone wants to play around with it. Drag the uncompressed .nksn file to an empty Kontakt rack and it should work (I'm assuming you'll have to point it to the samples). There's nothing fancy about it. If you want to make changes, click on the wrench and you'll see this:






Make sure the groups are selected the way you see them in the screen shot. Deselect the key noise, noise, etc. before editing. The selected EQ1 module is the one that tracks the fundamental. The Gain 1 knob changes the fundamental volume. The EQ1 module to the right of the selected one, is the static EQ that's reducing things in the 3k range. It's also connected to a key position modulator, so you can change the frequency or the amount of tracking if you want a different effect. Finally, to change the noise amount, click on the word noise in the group editor and you'll see a different set of group insert fx. Click on the Ldr PK effect and you'll see a Gain knob. That's what I used to change the gain of the noise, but I won't be surprised if there's a better way that I missed.


----------



## Nando Florestan

That's awesome! And yes, I think in your example the modified flute sounds more realistic and more beautiful. Thank you for explaining!


----------



## I like music

scoplunk said:


> Yes, this is just a single band eq that's tracking the keyboard on only the sustain and legato groups and is targeting the fundamental. I had problems at the beginning with the tracking because 100% tracking isn't actually a 1:1 track between pitch and eq frequency. After a little experimenting, I got the right value and then it worked great. This is just a straight linear key track, but it looks like there's a table for the key tracking, so you could theoretically build a custom track if you wanted to target certain ranges.
> 
> I didn't mention it in the original post, but I added another single band eq with the intention of having it track the upper harmonics. I think that the quieter fundamental made the 3k harmonics sound a little harsh to me, so my idea was to reduce them in the lower ranges. But, I wound up preferring to just bring them down everywhere, so I reduced the key tracking to 0. I left the key tracking assigned, though, in case I changed my mind later.
> 
> I'll attach a snapshot in case anyone wants to play around with it. Drag the uncompressed .nksn file to an empty Kontakt rack and it should work (I'm assuming you'll have to point it to the samples). There's nothing fancy about it. If you want to make changes, click on the wrench and you'll see this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure the groups are selected the way you see them in the screen shot. Deselect the key noise, noise, etc. before editing. The selected EQ1 module is the one that tracks the fundamental. The Gain 1 knob changes the fundamental volume. The EQ1 module to the right of the selected one, is the static EQ that's reducing things in the 3k range. It's also connected to a key position modulator, so you can change the frequency or the amount of tracking if you want a different effect. Finally, to change the noise amount, click on the word noise in the group editor and you'll see a different set of group insert fx. Click on the Ldr PK effect and you'll see a Gain knob. That's what I used to change the gain of the noise, but I won't be surprised if there's a better way that I missed.


I have no idea what you're talking about, but I liked the sound. Might have to go on a YouTube journey to understand some of what you said, and then start messing with this a bit. Thanks!


----------



## scoplunk

Feel free to ask questions. I'm happy to explain. I make no guarantees about my explanations being enlightening, though!


----------



## DANIELE

scoplunk said:


> I've been thinking about this post and finally got some time to experiment today. I know almost nothing about programming Kontakt, but I'm pretty experienced with programming synths and other samplers, so I thought I'd take a look under the hood and see if there was any way to address the "too much fundamental" issue - which is what I think is being referred to here as the first partial. The good news is that it is possible to address this problem without using any external plug ins. I made a version of Flute 1 that has the fundamental reduced and the noise turned up. Is it better? I have no idea. It's different and works better in the context of the piece I'm working on for this particular phrase. The noise volume and fundamental volume are freely adjustable, so this is just where I wound up. Anyway, I thought I'd throw these out there and see if anyone has any suggestions. It isn't a night and day difference, but might be interesting.
> 
> Flute 1:
> View attachment IW Flute 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Flute 1 Mod:
> View attachment IW Flute 1 Mod.mp3


The modded version is a bit more airy. Before the last update it was possible to adjust the breath noise separately so you could have more air at low dynamics, this is why it sounds better by lowering the amplitude of the fundamental. I like the modded version the most.
I think that this version should perform the runs better.

Aaron said that the breath control will be back in the upcoming update. I'm waiting for that to start experimenting on it.


----------



## JimDiGritz

I wonder if anyone can answer a couple of basic questions about IB?

1. Which colour indicates HQ on or off??




or





I'm leaning towards Gold being ON...

Secondly, I haven't checked all the instruments but at least one doesn't have HQ mode at all:






I'm using 1.6 (it does say 1.6 at bottom right of the Euphonium!)


Cheers!


----------



## Juulu

JimDiGritz said:


> I wonder if anyone can answer a couple of basic questions about IB?
> 
> 1. Which colour indicates HQ on or off??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm leaning towards Gold being ON...
> 
> Secondly, I haven't checked all the instruments but at least one doesn't have HQ mode at all:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm using 1.6 (it does say 1.6 at bottom right of the Euphonium!)
> 
> 
> Cheers!


Gold = on and yes no hq on the tuba I don't think.


----------



## JimDiGritz

Juulu said:


> Gold = on and yes no hq on the tuba I don't think.


Cheers @Juulu - phew - just spent 10 mins switching all to Gold in my Template!!


----------



## Tanarri

What does HQ mode do? I don't even know there's such thing...


----------



## JimDiGritz

Tanarri said:


> What does HQ mode do?


I'm not at my PC right now but it seems to be undocumented except for the tooltip which says better quality at ff and fff at the expense of CPU... or something to that effect

Only in IB (not IW) and only on certain instruments


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Higher quality filters I believe. It should be on by default on the instruments where it makes the most difference, and in some instruments, it wasn't even worth adding since it made no difference, only used more CPU.


----------



## Tanarri

Captain Oveur said:


>








The Infinite Orchestra is finally coming together.


----------



## TomaeusD

I ended up plunging into the Infinite Series. While there are a lot of great features and the playability is fantastic even without my breath controller, I am a bit underwhelmed with what I'm hearing. I decided not to post anything until I had practiced with the instruments for a few days and gotten used to them a bit first.

My main concern besides the legato transitions (especially the woodwinds) is still the tone of the brass instruments, particularly the trombones, tuba, horns, and other low brass. I found that the HQ button does improve the filtering and overall quality of the brass in FF territory, but it does not fix the harsh synthetic buzz I hear, particularly in the trombones. Here is a quick example of what I am hearing, and a comparison with SM Trombone after.

Will this be addressed in the new update? What methods have you all employed to dial back this sound without sacrificing the louder dynamics? I'm really excited to see how these instruments will improve and Aaron should be proud of what has already been accomplished overall - the trumpets to me are by far the best of the bunch and I imagine they are a taste of what can be done.


----------



## sound team apk

Maybe you already know this, but it's not necessarily obvious: I believe we're meant to use the top of CC1 very selectively. CC1 = 110 is already ff. The buzz at the very top is to produce effects like rips, or just for the attack of a big marcato before you dip back down. On the trumpets it's unusual for me even to reach 100.

Still, the trombones are considered to be behind the other instruments still. They do get thinner at higher dynamics. You can find a lot of discussion in this thread about how we try to improve them. Check out the discussions a few pages ago about Spectre (or your favorite multiband exciter). It does help, though it doesn't completely eliminate the problem.

I hope you'll give the the horns more time. I think they're fantastic, though admittedly it took a while to realize how much so.


----------



## DANIELE

TomaeusD said:


> Will this be addressed in the new update?


Usually Aaron improve the instruments a lot on every update but I fear we will have to wait the next year for them too to know about it.

Be sure about the improvement anyway.


----------



## TomaeusD

sound team apk said:


> Maybe you already know this, but it's not necessarily obvious: I believe we're meant to use the top of CC1 very selectively. CC1 = 110 is already ff. The buzz at the very top is to produce effects like rips, or just for the attack of a big marcato before you dip back down. On the trumpets it's unusual for me even to reach 100.
> 
> Still, the trombones are considered to be behind the other instruments still. They do get thinner at higher dynamics. You can find a lot of discussion in this thread about how we try to improve them. Check out the discussions a few pages ago about Spectre (or your favorite multiband exciter). It does help, though it doesn't completely eliminate the problem.
> 
> I hope you'll give the the horns more time. I think they're fantastic, though admittedly it took a while to realize how much so.


Thanks a bunch, this is helpful (particularly your post in the other thread). I definitely won't stop using these and will keep learning about them! Thankfully I already have Spectre so I'll experiment more with that as well.


----------



## Trash Panda

TomaeusD said:


> I ended up plunging into the Infinite Series. While there are a lot of great features and the playability is fantastic even without my breath controller, I am a bit underwhelmed with what I'm hearing. I decided not to post anything until I had practiced with the instruments for a few days and gotten used to them a bit first.
> 
> My main concern besides the legato transitions (especially the woodwinds) is still the tone of the brass instruments, particularly the trombones, tuba, horns, and other low brass. I found that the HQ button does improve the filtering and overall quality of the brass in FF territory, but it does not fix the harsh synthetic buzz I hear, particularly in the trombones. Here is a quick example of what I am hearing, and a comparison with SM Trombone after.
> 
> Will this be addressed in the new update? What methods have you all employed to dial back this sound without sacrificing the louder dynamics? I'm really excited to see how these instruments will improve and Aaron should be proud of what has already been accomplished overall - the trumpets to me are by far the best of the bunch and I imagine they are a taste of what can be done.


I'd be interested in seeing the MIDI used, as it sounds like you're way up there in the CC1 range. As others have pointed out, anything above 110 is typically not meant to be used for extended periods*. The lower you go in instruments (e.g. from high to mid to low brass), the lower that threshold should realistically be. I believe @aaronventure even mentioned that it's not realistic to go above 64 on the CC1 of the tuba and contrabass tuba for more than a brief moment because humans simply lack the lung capacity to sustain that much airflow.

For the tenor trombones specifically, I find that 96 is a good sweet spot for spending anything more than brief moment in for loud dynamics. If you absolutely must go higher, a common practice to tame some of the buzziness is to add a dynamic high shelf that suppresses the upper frequency range once a certain threshold is passed. The important part is to keep it dynamic so you aren't unnecessarily darkening the lower dynamics in the process (unless that's your goal of course).

*Edit: however, IMO, the Trumpets and French Horns sound rather lovely for epic, soaring/screaming lines at CC values between 112-127. I'm hoping Aaron can work his magic to achieve the same effect for the trombone family and the cimbassi.


----------



## TomaeusD

Trash Panda said:


> I'd be interested in seeing the MIDI used, as it sounds like you're way up there in the CC1 range. As others have pointed out, anything above 110 is typically not meant to be used for extended periods*. The lower you go in instruments (e.g. from high to mid to low brass), the lower that threshold should realistically be. I believe @aaronventure even mentioned that it's not realistic to go above 64 on the CC1 of the tuba and contrabass tuba for more than a brief moment because humans simply lack the lung capacity to sustain that much airflow.
> 
> For the tenor trombones specifically, I find that 96 is a good sweet spot for spending anything more than brief moment in for loud dynamics. If you absolutely must go higher, a common practice to tame some of the buzziness is to add a dynamic high shelf that suppresses the upper frequency range once a certain threshold is passed. The important part is to keep it dynamic so you aren't unnecessarily darkening the lower dynamics in the process (unless that's your goal of course).
> 
> *Edit: however, IMO, the Trumpets and French Horns sound rather lovely for epic, soaring/screaming lines at CC values between 112-127. I'm hoping Aaron can work his magic to achieve the same effect for the trombone family and the cimbassi.


Unfortunately I didn't save that test as a project, and it definitely went into 100+ territory quite a bit. Here I've done a test where I stay well below 100, then I try a Bb crescendo, followed by something that goes above the 100 range. I'll post SM Trombone for comparison's sake.






EDIT: I realized that the final test for IB I only went up to 100 at the E for the highest CC1 dynamic.


----------



## TomaeusD

I've dropped pitch accuracy more and added some Spectre to the 120Hz and 1.40kHz areas. I think it's a bit of an improvement.


----------



## vicontrolu

SM sounds definitely better in thise examples but you still need some time to adjust to IB. Those short staccatos after the first legato phrase have a bit too much velocity for example.

Have fun learning the instruments. Well worth the time!


----------



## El Buhdai

Guys I finally figured out why Aaron hasn't released Infinite Strings. He's waiting for me to graduate so I can no longer get the EDU discount.

Don't worry Aaron, I know I've been taking a while to get through uni, but you have to wait one more year.


----------



## Marcel

El Buhdai said:


> Guys I finally figured out why Aaron hasn't released Infinite Strings. He's waiting for me to graduate so I can no longer get the EDU discount.
> 
> Don't worry Aaron, I know I've been taking a while to get through uni, but you have to wait one more year.


Good one bro, now the release is past whatever I said last time in response to another guy in response to Aaron


----------



## Trash Panda

El Buhdai said:


> Guys I finally figured out why Aaron hasn't released Infinite Strings. He's waiting for me to graduate so I can no longer get the EDU discount.
> 
> Don't worry Aaron, I know I've been taking a while to get through uni, but you have to wait one more year.


+1 year


----------



## Jamus

But we are all students of life, right? Discounts all around?


----------



## JimDiGritz

I thought I'd share this experiment (just fooling around with some ideas whilst watching Christian Henson's video on experimenting with sample libraries: )

This is NOT FOR PURISTS (not sure where I've heard that warning before!) and is just an experiment, but thought it might be of interest. 1st playthrough is straight IB Brass Bass Bone, followed by same MIDI with the Line6 Helix FX chain below:

View attachment Test Helix Pitch-003.mp3


I was actually in the middle of testing out some of Line6 Helix effects when I watched this video so I wanted to see if I could use Helix to get a similar effect:






So all I've done is split the IB Bass Bone signal at 200Hz (arbitrary value) and (just on the low frequencies) applied a -1 Octave Pitch followed by a Kinky Boost. I've used a simple Dynamic Hall reverb in Helix on both sections for consistency. All are stereo FX.

The Automation just enables the Pitch and Distortion Boost, 

*NB Of course this isn't how a Bass Bone should sound, and this effect could probably just as easily be achieved by arranging a _pp_ Tuba or Cimbasso in octave. Just a bit of experimentation!!!


----------



## RogiervG

Overall i prefer the tone and transitions better in SM brass (especially with reverbs applied). IB sounds a bit too synthesized for my taste.
i am talking purely about soloistic instrument use, ensembles can sound very convincing in IB.


----------



## I like music

RogiervG said:


> Overall i prefer the tone and transitions better in SM brass (especially with reverbs applied). IB sounds a bit too synthesized for my taste.
> i am talking purely about soloistic instrument use, ensembles can sound very convincing in IB.


As much as I love IB, there's something about the transitions in SM brass which is just incredible. But I could never place them well enough. Ad yes, ensembles is where IB really kicks ass.


----------



## Markrs

I am trying to set up Infinite Brass and Woodwinds with Divisimate, but one issue is Legato when changing all notes. Sometimes this is necessary, rather than using voice leading, but I don't know how to ensure all the parts change with Legato. 

With Audiobro MSS I can change either how long it waits for the next note to sound it as legato or use the sustain pedal. Can Infinite series do the same with?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Markrs said:


> I am trying to set up Infinite Brass and Woodwinds with Divisimate, but one issue is Legato when changing all notes. Sometimes this is necessary, rather than using voice leading, but I don't know how to ensure all the parts change with Legato.
> 
> With Audiobro MSS I can change either how long it waits for the next note to sound it as legato or use the sustain pedal. Can Infinite series do the same with?


Infinite offers a "Legato Bypass" setting on the UI. You can automate that. You can also set the minimum velocity for triggering legato (though given velocity is used for note attacks, this is likely less useful).


----------



## Markrs

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Infinite offers a "Legato Bypass" setting on the UI. You can automate that. You can also set the minimum velocity for triggering legato (though given velocity is used for note attacks, this is likely less useful).


Thank you, I noticed when I press the stain pedal it operates the legato bypass, which is the reserve of MSS.

Still can't figure out if the notes need to over lap or of not how long I have to change note and still get legato. Personally it would be a lot easier if the sustain pedal when pressed ensured a legato was played with the next note.


----------



## Markrs

Markrs said:


> I am trying to set up Infinite Brass and Woodwinds with Divisimate, but one issue is Legato when changing all notes. Sometimes this is necessary, rather than using voice leading, but I don't know how to ensure all the parts change with Legato.
> 
> With Audiobro MSS I can change either how long it waits for the next note to sound it as legato or use the sustain pedal. Can Infinite series do the same with?


@aaronventure maybe you could help me with the above. I am setting up with Divisimate with the advantage that I can play in notes and have polylegato even if the instrument doesn't support that. 

However overlapping notes is pretty tricky and sometimes all notes change, but I still want legato. With other libraries I would just hold down the sustain pedal, but with Infinite winds this bypasses legato. Is there a solution for this?


----------



## Tanarri

I like music said:


> As much as I love IB, there's something about the transitions in SM brass which is just incredible. But I could never place them well enough. Ad yes, ensembles is where IB really kicks ass.


Yea, SM is the best for solo/studio stuff, especially the trumpet. But for orchestral sections stuff, I use IB. IB Horns are way superior to SM. With some mixing I don't even double them with JXL or CineBrass horns, they can sound really good and playability is light-years better than the traditional sample libs.

Can't wait for the updates.


----------



## Batrawi

Markrs said:


> However overlapping notes is pretty tricky and sometimes all notes change, but I still want legato. With other libraries I would just hold down the sustain pedal, but with Infinite winds this bypasses legato. Is there a solution for this?



Try this script. it works for me when I want to ignore a library's default behaviour and use the sustain pedal to play sustains/legatos just like CSS or MSS etc..









The Blake Robinson Synthetic Orchestra - Tutorials » Spitfire Audio » The sustain pedal


Synthetic Orchestra. Now up to 736 pieces of music. That's 26 hours, 11 minutes of listening!




www.syntheticorchestra.com


----------



## Markrs

Batrawi said:


> Try this script. it works for me when I want to ignore a library's default behaviour and use the sustain pedal to play sustains/legatos just like CSS or MSS etc..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Blake Robinson Synthetic Orchestra - Tutorials » Spitfire Audio » The sustain pedal
> 
> 
> Synthetic Orchestra. Now up to 736 pieces of music. That's 26 hours, 11 minutes of listening!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.syntheticorchestra.com


Thank you! I am hoping Aaron might consider allowing the sustain pedal to hold the notes for easier legato in future versions, as it would really help, especially for those of us not as agile on the keyboard.


----------



## ibanez1

Markrs said:


> Thank you! I am hoping Aaron might consider allowing the sustain pedal to hold the notes for easier legato in future versions, as it would really help, especially for those of us not as agile on the keyboard.


Interesting. I've been having a problem with this as well. It would probably be good for me to buy a sustain pedal first to even have the option of taking this route . This sounds like a good solution to the overlapping note problem. Divisimate usually works well enough if I have a top legato melody with slower chord transitions underneath but anything more complicated gets a bit dicey legato wise. Marcato/Staccato style phrases have been working pretty well at least.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

ibanez1 said:


> Interesting. I've been having a problem with this as well. It would probably be good for me to buy a sustain pedal first to even have the option of taking this route . This sounds like a good solution to the overlapping note problem. Divisimate usually works well enough if I have a top legato melody with slower chord transitions underneath but anything more complicated gets a bit dicey legato wise. Marcato/Staccato style phrases have been working pretty well at least.





Markrs said:


> Thank you! I am hoping Aaron might consider allowing the sustain pedal to hold the notes for easier legato in future versions, as it would really help, especially for those of us not as agile on the keyboard.



Why not just use the script that @Batrawi linked? I understand that having a native solution might feel better, but it does the exact same thing that you want.


----------



## Markrs

Jonathan Moray said:


> Why not just use the script that @Batrawi linked? I understand that having a native solution might feel better, but it does the exact same thing that you want.


Whilst I will initially use that script but what happens as Kontakt changes and I can’t use the script anymore. Plus you have to feel comforable with Kontakt to implement it, which might be beyond a users ability. It is much easier if the sustain pedal legato option is integrated into Infinite sample libraries. 

Also when other users want the same option they have to find the script, or have someone who can point them to it. It Batrawi hadn’t pointed me too it how would I have found it?

Plus there have been plenty of feature requests on this thread, I don’t think it is wrong to suggest this one, given it is common in other sample libraries.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Markrs said:


> Whilst I will initially use that script but what happens as Kontakt changes and I can’t use the script anymore. Plus you have to feel comforable with Kontakt to implement it, which might be beyond a users ability. It is much easier if the sustain pedal legato option is integrated into Infinite sample libraries.
> 
> Also when other users want the same option they have to find the script, or have someone who can point them to it. It Batrawi hadn’t pointed me too it how would I have found it?
> 
> Plus there have been plenty of feature requests on this thread, I don’t think it is wrong to suggest this one, given it is common in other sample libraries.



If Kontakt changes that much, it could potentially break the native implementation too, no? And if it does change, the script could very well be updated, but right now, it works up to the latest Kontakt I believe. If you can open Kontakt and change the settings in the Infinite interface, you can add a script to the KSP tab. It really is not any harder than if it was integrated natively into Infinite. Did you try it? Not trying to argue, I'm just saying that it's really simple. Or I'm missing something?

Absolutely, and it's been requested a few times before spanning back years. I think it will be a native option in Infinite in time, but for now, the script that was posted works great, so no need to wait for a native implementation.


----------



## aaronventure

Markrs said:


> @aaronventure maybe you could help me with the above. I am setting up with Divisimate with the advantage that I can play in notes and have polylegato even if the instrument doesn't support that.
> 
> However overlapping notes is pretty tricky and sometimes all notes change, but I still want legato. With other libraries I would just hold down the sustain pedal, but with Infinite winds this bypasses legato. Is there a solution for this?


Use this to set up a note-off delay, which will result in MIDI notes that are right next to each other overlapping and thus triggering legato in Infinite. 

Also works for EWIs that don't have the overlap function. 

Your concerns about Kontakt not supporting a multiscript anymore are unfounded. Patches that were made 18 years ago still work in the latest version of Kontakt. 

There is a native sustain pedal integration in the upcoming update, though.


----------



## Ivan Duch

@aaronventure, 

I've read your comment on the Dorico post about using the Infinite Series. I bought Tokyo Scoring Strings during the weekend and have been playing around with the Look-ahead feature with Dorico. 
I'm thinking that could be a good solution for notation. 

Some look-ahead feature that handles offsets and maybe even some of the expression by automating CC, without the need for a different plugin, you just click a switch on Kontakt, when you want to automate stuff and be able to quantize everything. 

Just my 2 cents, you probably have a solution for it in your head.

PS. In case anyone here is wondering about using it on Dorico, it's awesome. It has become my go-to library in Dorico.


----------



## Markrs

aaronventure said:


> Use this to set up a note-off delay, which will result in MIDI notes that are right next to each other overlapping and thus triggering legato in Infinite.
> 
> Also works for EWIs that don't have the overlap function.
> 
> Your concerns about Kontakt not supporting a multiscript anymore are unfounded. Patches that were made 18 years ago still work in the latest version of Kontakt.
> 
> There is a native sustain pedal integration in the upcoming update, though.


Thank you Aaron, I appreciate you providing a script and that implementation is coming soon.



Jonathan Moray said:


> If Kontakt changes that much, it could potentially break the native implementation too, no? And if it does change, the script could very well be updated, but right now, it works up to the latest Kontakt I believe. If you can open Kontakt and change the settings in the Infinite interface, you can add a script to the KSP tab. It really is not any harder than if it was integrated natively into Infinite. Did you try it? Not trying to argue, I'm just saying that it's really simple. Or I'm missing something?
> 
> Absolutely, and it's been requested a few times before spanning back years. I think it will be a native option in Infinite in time, but for now, the script that was posted works great, so no need to wait for a native implementation.


I get your point of view and I also Aaron’s about long term support for scripts in Kontakt, but this isn’t something everyone would know, so is a natural concern for me (lot’s of software or scripts can date quickly and stop working). Also knowing about and finding a 3rd party script requires a certain amount of good fortune of being on such a knowledgable forum.

I hope you don’t think I was being argumentative and I do appreciate you replying.


----------



## shawnsingh

Trash Panda said:


> Maybe! That's the idea behind these experiments - to figure out the approach that yields the best results.
> 
> 
> Will try this out too. I'm not hearing a marked difference in Studio Close versus Mic Mix 1 when put in situ, but the latter seems to have a slightly smaller CPU hit. Will play around with the seating positions and see how the results sound.
> 
> 
> Going for an in situ sound. I'll play around with the in situ positions and see if that comes out better.



Ok so I became interested in the Berlin studio reverb too, and got a sound that I feel was promising. I'll see about uploading examples soon, definitely need feedback to stomp out the usual Dunning-Kruger problems.

Meanwhile here's how I mixed it:

IB Trumpet using studio venue, close mic only, muted the main and ambient. but I still used the *positioned* IR from IB, not the center solo position. Then ran it through Berlin Studio trumpet section position, decca and dry only. The dry part was like 10 db quieter than the decca tree wet.

Even before EQ, this seemed to match reasonably well with OT. There's an obvious difference in the direct / very early sound, but the tails sound very similar to OT trumpet decca tree. I experimented less with AB be and Sur but they also seemed nicely similar to the OT counterpart.


----------



## I like music

shawnsingh said:


> Ok so I became interested in the Berlin studio reverb too, and got a sound that I feel was promising. I'll see about uploading examples soon, definitely need feedback to stomp out the usual Dunning-Kruger problems.
> 
> Meanwhile here's how I mixed it:
> 
> IB Trumpet using studio venue, close mic only, muted the main and ambient. but I still used the *positioned* IR from IB, not the center solo position. Then ran it through Berlin Studio trumpet section position, decca and dry only. The dry part was like 10 db quieter than the decca tree wet.
> 
> Even before EQ, this seemed to match reasonably well with OT. There's an obvious difference in the direct / very early sound, but the tails sound very similar to OT trumpet decca tree. I experimented less with AB be and Sur but they also seemed nicely similar to the OT counterpart.


Audio or it didn't happen :D

Would love to hear any examples!


----------



## sound team apk

I was doing some Brahms mockups to compare IB and SM Brass in another thread. I just gave up on SM in my latest practice section, so I'm going to post just the IB version here so I can ask a question.

This is a really dramatic part of the 4th movement of the Brahms 1st symphony (though it's embarrassing to post a Brahms mockup of any kind after Dan's on the Pacific demo thread...):

View attachment IB Mozarteum Fast Version.mp3


Mozarteum mix mic 5, completely unprocessed -- no limiter, nothing. The winds are also all Infinite, though I was comparing brass libraries so I only made the strings and winds plausible enough for context. I stopped arbitrarily after feeling like I'd learned enough, so some things I think come off pretty well, while there are other bits I'd still obsess over if I really wanted to finish it. 

I was very pleased with how IB handled the chords at the beginning and (especially) the end. I was reading on another thread that some people Infinite sounds like angry bees. I used a lot of dynamics above 110 here, especially in the horns (which frequently go well into the 120s). But I don't think I hear many bees...

If anything my problem is that I still haven't quite figured out how to make really sharp marcato shorts sound buzzy enough. I was trying to get the Infinite Horns (which I think are great) to play a note that's super fuzzy, puffs out very briefly, but then decays almost immediately. That's something I hear in the horns all the time. The ones from 0:08-0:15 are far too mushy, though IB handles marcatos of the kind from 0:17-0:20 quite well. Anyone have any ideas? Do I need to resort to pushing super-high dynamics but lowering CC11? I typically avoid that.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> Audio or it didn't happen :D
> 
> Would love to hear any examples!


Yeah, it didn't happen. As I tried to make a more complete example with all brass, it became obvious I didn't have a good mix yet.


----------



## gedlig

Are we there yet?


----------



## RogiervG

gedlig said:


> Are we there yet?


define "there"


----------



## ibanez1

RogiervG said:


> define "there"


I'm assuming infinite strings lol. The saving grace for this thread so far is that it's both a speculation thread for strings and a discussion thread for brass and winds. Otherwise it would have been locked long ago for second violin jokes .


----------



## gedlig

RogiervG said:


> define "there"


The updates and the unmentionable innumerable instruments with 4 bowed tonal threads


----------



## RogiervG

gedlig said:


> The updates and the unmentionable innumerable instruments with 4 bowed tonal threads


ooh. yes, those 4 that don't require blowing direct air into them..  got it..


----------



## Juulu

I think Aaron has stated himself that the announcement of an update release or IS being released wouldn't be in this thread. You'd likely see it in "Commercial Announcements". But if we wanna speculate, I mentioned somewhere before that when asking Aaron about the updates in an email, he had hoped to have the updated Brass released by the end of the year, with woodwinds following that. Though I wouldn't hold him to this, I think it means we're likely close (maybe Q1?). There's really no telling with these kinds of things. And of course, there have been delays. I've honestly just tried my best to forget about the potential releases, so I can just have a nice surprise when they eventually come out.

Edit#
Correction, he did not say the end of the year, but depending on how things go over the next "5-6 months"(this was March) the updates will come before the strings. Sorry for the mistake.


----------



## shawnsingh

I hope Aaron was able to take some much needed relaxing time off.


----------



## Tanarri

Yea. He can take all the nap time until Kontakt upgrade sale goes live...

I fooled around with IW again today. Can't wait for the update, it's already such an awesome library.


----------



## mattnedgus

I just wanted to jump in (been lurking a while) and say how much I love Aaron's libraries after picking them up a few weeks ago!

I'm not a great player but the playability of these libraries has really changed the game for me. For the last year I've struggled to 'connect' to composition (and bought so many libraries trying to!) - I'm not a pen and paper composer or a DAW programmer and keyswitching took me too far away mentally (having to 'think'). With IB and IW I love how I can just play the instruments and get an immediate feel for their different styles and interactions with one another.

In fact they've been so good that I now find it easier to go back and think about how I use keyswitched libraries and combine different instruments together. I'm really looking forwards to see what Aaron does with the strings, I suspect they'll be an insta-buy from me.


----------



## Tanarri

mattnedgus said:


> I'm really looking forwards to see what Aaron does with the strings, I suspect they'll be an insta-buy from me.


Having ordinary string sample libraries next to IB and IW makes the strings sound so fake. 😅 Can't wait for IS.

As I was playing with IW yesterday, I've realized why normal sample libraries can never sound as a live player, while IW can. It's that 'one instrument' approach. All the keyswitch articulations make the instruments sound disjointed and fake. Meanwhile the super-responsive and playable IW stuff where every little detail of your playing counts and the library is able to translate that into a smooth performance is where the magic is. It's so incredibly life-like it blows my mind.

I was checking out the english horn, used Waves' Kramer Tape and Puig EQ, Wavesfactory's Spectre, and a normal EQ on it and was able to get incredibly chocolate sound. Maybe some instruments need some more work to sound better, but man, IW 2.0 with some processing sounds great already.

I've quite flipped my opinion on this, I think IB needs more work than IW, sound-wise. Using IW 2.0 for solo woodwinds sounds really good already (I'm still really excited for the update). But I'm wondering whether Aaron will be able to push the sound of the sections made out of single instruments somewhere further (but I might just need to experiment with various mic and attack settings more). But I definitely cannot wait for the update to get rid of the hanging notes. 😄


----------



## AlainTH

often the same problematic: playing for fun is a thing, record and listen is another. good playability and good sounding is the graal, it's possible with synths, with orchestral libaries for the moment choice have to be made between the expressivity (so maybe more for the good keyboard players) and timber realism (maybe for audio purists).


----------



## mattnedgus

Tanarri said:


> Having ordinary string sample libraries next to IB and IW makes the strings sound so fake. 😅 Can't wait for IS.



I was on the fence for Spitfires SCS as my first and main strings library... not anymore! IB and IW gave me such a transcendental opening experience that the decision was made for me.



Tanarri said:


> As I was playing with IW yesterday, I've realized why normal sample libraries can never sound as a live player, while IW can.



I think this is what makes IW and IB so standout for me - I feel connected to the sound in a way that few to no libraries have ever done before: I wasn't just a listener, I was inside the sound.


----------



## shawnsingh

I like music said:


> Audio or it didn't happen :D
> 
> Would love to hear any examples!


OK, sat down more with it and realized that my previous close mic attempt was wrong - it turns out that studio venue with close and main (and optionally ambient) works much better.

Attached many examples, comparing a Bersa Venue + Cinematic Rooms Reverb mix that I had liked so far with a Studio Venue + Berlin Studio Reverb mix.

Some thoughts:
- On one hand, I think the wet/dry mix maybe is less in the Berlin Studio mix. But on the other hand, Bersa version I added a much shorter tail of Cinematic Rooms. So in some cases one sounds slightly more dry than the other, and other cases vice versa.
- In the Berlin version I experimented a lot with different mic mix position on individual solo instruments. It makes a positive difference when they're combined as an ensemble (even in divisi), but as soloists, some of the instruments start to sound more diffuse and less precisely localized.
- surprisingly, the overall tone of the Bersa vs Berlin feel nearly the same to me. I didn't EQ match them at all.
- Trombones and low brass in general sound a bit "squirty" on the Berlin mix. I suspect that choosing the right mic mix presets from Infinite and a bit of EQ would make that no issue.
- Some of the low brass I didn't really put much time to trying to vary their mic mix presets, so they might sound a bit off.

Here are the Studio venue + Berlin Studio reverb examples:

Solo instruments:
View attachment IB-IW-BerlinReverb-each-instrument-solo.mp3

Ensemble experiments:
View attachment IB-IW-BerlinReverb-ensemble-experiments.mp3

Indiana Jones:
View attachment IB-IW-BerlinReverb-indy-jones.mp3

Low brass random stuff:
View attachment IB-IW-BerlinReverb-low-brass.mp3

Ravel woodwinds:
View attachment IB-IW-BerlinReverb-woodwinds-ravel.mp3


----------



## shawnsingh

And the Bersa + Cinematic Rooms versions attached (see previous post for context)

Solo instruments:
View attachment IB-IW-BersaAndCinematicStudioReverb-each-intrument-solo.mp3


Ensemble experiments:
View attachment IB-IW-BersaAndCinematicStudioReverb-ensemble-experiments.mp3


Indiana Jones:
View attachment IB-IW-BersaAndCinematicStudioReverb-indy-jones.mp3


Low brass random stuff:
View attachment IB-IW-BersaAndCinematicStudioReverb-low-brass.mp3


Ravel woodwinds:
View attachment IB-IW-BersaAndCinematicStudioReverb-woodwinds-ravel.mp3


----------



## JimDiGritz

shawnsingh said:


> And the Bersa + Cinematic Rooms versions attached (see previous post for context)


Thanks for this, as a little tip you can insert these clips inline in the post using the Insert button on the attachment(s)






Makes it much easier to follow!


----------



## shawnsingh

JimDiGritz said:


> Thanks for this, as a little tip you can insert these clips inline in the post using the Insert button on the attachment(s)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes it much easier to follow!


Edited. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## Juulu

Hey everyone, recently I made a video compiling some tips that I've found helpful when using Infinite Brass. It's a fairly long video but I feel like it could address some issues people have with the library that I haven't seen covered elsewhere. Let me know what you guys think!



P.S. there are some artifacts in the audio that I'm hoping aren't too distracting. I'm working to have them fixed.


----------



## Juulu

Here's another example of the legato difference in Infinite Woodwinds starting with hard velocities and then again with softer velocities. 

View attachment 90639-a45accf91a3a541ed30a28f7a7aa73fc.mp3


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Juulu said:


> Hey everyone, recently I made a video compiling some tips that I've found helpful when using Infinite Brass. It's a fairly long video but I feel like it could address some issues people have with the library that I haven't seen covered elsewhere. Let me know what you guys think!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. there are some artifacts in the audio that I'm hoping aren't too distracting. I'm working to have them fixed.



amazing video. I noticed your brass sounds like it's blended really well and that there are no mud frequencies poking out. Have you Eq'ed then? Subbed.


----------



## Juulu

NeonMediaKJT said:


> amazing video. I noticed your brass sounds like it's blended really well and that there are no mud frequencies poking out. Have you Eq'ed then? Subbed.


Thank you! Nothing much honestly. There's a small shelf on the low end and then a bit of a scoop for the mids. I'm experimenting with boosting the highs but often times it's not needed. The brass can get really shrill, especially from f-fff.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I got a question regarding the tail of the convolutions. I know it was said you can shorten the tail on Mozarteum. Just tried this but found it wasn't doing anything when I lowered the decay in the instrument properties. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


----------



## Trash Panda

Juulu said:


> Hey everyone, recently I made a video compiling some tips that I've found helpful when using Infinite Brass. It's a fairly long video but I feel like it could address some issues people have with the library that I haven't seen covered elsewhere. Let me know what you guys think!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. there are some artifacts in the audio that I'm hoping aren't too distracting. I'm working to have them fixed.



Great video! You're a natural in front of the camera and on the mic.



So true. I cringe any time someone obsesses over legatos in brass libraries, because real brass players don't slur notes all that often compared to strings and woodwinds. Too few libraries offer the option of re-tongued "legato" which is how legato should be used in most brass and woodwind parts.

On the subject of vibrato for Infinite Brass, I would recommend altering the minimum boundary on vibrato rate and depth to be higher than 0, and have slight differences for each instrument in a section.

If you listen to traditionally sampled brass holding a sustain at a fixed CC1 value, you'll still hear fluctuations in volume and pitch for each instrument happening independently as they play follow the leader. 

While I think @aaronventure tuned this pretty well in v1.6 on trumpets and horns with the pitch accuracy control to effect sustain pitch drift (and the volume drift already present works well), I think some more tweaking is needed to make the effect more apparent in the low brass.

Below are some comparisons against the trombones in Berlin Brass, JXL and IB (IB with and without vibrato added).

Berlin:
View attachment Trombones a3 Sustain (Berlin).mp3


JXL:
View attachment Trombones a3 Sustain (JXL).mp3


Infinite Tenor Bones 1 & 2 and Bass Bone 1(no vibrato):
View attachment Trombones a3 Sustain (IB no Vibrato).mp3


Infinite Tenor Bones 1 & 2 and Bass Bone 1 (with vibrato):
View attachment Trombones a3 Sustain (IB).mp3


----------



## Trash Panda

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I got a question regarding the tail of the convolutions. I know it was said you can shorten the tail on Mozarteum. Just tried this but found it wasn't doing anything when I lowered the decay in the instrument properties. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


Depends on what convolution you're using. There's several different places where the IRs get loaded and you're probably changing one that's not in use.


----------



## Juulu

Trash Panda said:


> On the subject of vibrato for Infinite Brass, I would recommend altering the minimum boundary on vibrato rate and depth to be higher than 0, and have slight differences for each instrument in a section.


Funnily enough, I did just that a few hours ago for a different reason haha. The way you're using it to create dynamic movement is really cool though. I'll have to try this as well. And thank you, I was a bit nervous in the beginning but got more comfortable the more I recorded.


----------



## xenos

Juulu said:


> Hey everyone, recently I made a video compiling some tips that I've found helpful when using Infinite Brass. It's a fairly long video but I feel like it could address some issues people have with the library that I haven't seen covered elsewhere. Let me know what you guys think!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. there are some artifacts in the audio that I'm hoping aren't too distracting. I'm working to have them fixed.



Wow Thank You very much! This video is truly amazing and incredible helpfull at least for me  If i may i have a few questions :

1. If You mention that somwhere, im sorry i didnt noticed but ..What kind of controller do You using for Infinite series. Which is the best controller in Your opinion for Infinie.(from other side, i heard many great things about TEC. Do You have some experiance with breath controller?) 
2. Do You report to Aaron about this bug issues with humanization You mention? Im also had few times some weird behaviour, especially when i try to make some really fast repetition or double tongues in trumpets play unisono. Some notes was not hearing some sound little bit odd.
3. As far as im noticed, You like to work by write one voice and then copy into other. Is setting, pitch accuracy diffrently for instruments in section eliminates fazeing problem for You? Or You also play each voice live recording separatelly ?
4. Did You set some time offset in cubase for Infinite ? Im noticed that Your midi is very rarely quantized.

Again. This was really fantastic video and thank You about that. Would be also great if You could do more videos about Infinite. For example about woodwinds or something simillar about Your EQ for Infinite because Your settings sounds really realistic and just great. 

Thanks


----------



## Juulu

xenos said:


> Wow Thank You very much! This video is truly amazing and incredible helpfull at least for me  If i may i have a few questions :
> 
> 1. If You mention that somwhere, im sorry i didnt noticed but ..What kind of controller do You using for Infinite series. Which is the best controller in Your opinion for Infinie.(from other side, i heard many great things about TEC. Do You have some experiance with breath controller?)
> 2. Do You report to Aaron about this bug issues with humanization You mention? Im also had few times some weird behaviour, especially when i try to make some really fast repetition or double tongues in trumpets play unisono. Some notes was not hearing some sound little bit odd.
> 3. As far as im noticed, You like to work by write one voice and then copy into other. Is setting, pitch accuracy diffrently for instruments in section eliminates fazeing problem for You? Or You also play each voice live recording separatelly ?
> 4. Did You set some time offset in cubase for Infinite ? Im noticed that Your midi is very rarely quantized.
> 
> Again. This was really fantastic video and thank You about that. Would be also great if You could do more videos about Infinite. For example about woodwinds or something simillar about Your EQ for Infinite because Your settings sounds really realistic and just great.
> 
> Thanks


1. I use a Korg NanoKontrol 2. I don't know if there is a best controller. I think you just have to find what works best for you.
2. Aaron is aware of the bug and is addressing it in the next update I believe. Pretty sure there was a post he made in this thread about it a few months ago.
3. I actually play everything in unison unless an instrument plays a different part. What you saw is likely me using Cubase's midi retrospective feauture which only works on one selected track.
4. I don't actually quantize my midi. That's probably why you see the midi leading a bit so that things are on beat. I've grown accustomed to playing ahead of the beat. It's pretty easy to do with infinite stuff though.


----------



## wunderflo

Juulu said:


> Hey everyone, recently I made a video compiling some tips that I've found helpful when using Infinite Brass. It's a fairly long video but I feel like it could address some issues people have with the library that I haven't seen covered elsewhere. Let me know what you guys think!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. there are some artifacts in the audio that I'm hoping aren't too distracting. I'm working to have them fixed.



great video, thanks a lot. I subscribed!


----------



## JimDiGritz

I've just noticed that you can adjust the Pitch Accuracy control more slowly/finely by holding Shift. The default adjustment is in quite large 1/16(ish) increments. 

I'm assuming that this isn't going to cause a problem with the underlying scripts not expecting smaller increment adjustments.

Also, this may be a bog standard Kontakt feature that I've never noticed before!!!!


----------



## Lord Daknight

GUYS I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT INSTRUMENT A 'LAGRANGE' IS BUT I'M GETTIN THIS ASAP! bravo Aaron what a pleasant surprise. A New Age of Enlightenment indeed.


----------



## sound team apk

Juulu said:


> Funnily enough, I did just that a few hours ago for a different reason haha. The way you're using it to create dynamic movement is really cool though. I'll have to try this as well. And thank you, I was a bit nervous in the beginning but got more comfortable the more I recorded.


I also just did this yesterday, for the same reason! I've been rebuilding over the holidays, and I decided to try small amounts of vibrato since I was finding myself turning pitch accuracy down to the very bottom too often when emulating other libraries. 

I can't believe I wasn't doing this before. @Trash Panda recommended it months ago. I should have listened.



Trash Panda said:


> So true. I cringe any time someone obsesses over legatos in brass libraries, because real brass players don't slur notes all that often compared to strings and woodwinds. Too few libraries offer the option of re-tongued "legato" which is how legato should be used in most brass and woodwind parts.


Berlin Brass ftw ... I think that might be the only library I have besides Infinite that has controllable slurs and retonguing.

At least for the horns, it's not that the slurs are bad slurs ... They seem to be sampled, or at least there are groups for them under the wrench. While reminding myself of the retonguing vs. slurs in BB, the slurs on BB horn 2 sounded so similar that I actually thought I'd selected an IB track by mistake.

@Juulu's excellent video on that covers a lot of things I've learned by trial and error over the last year or so. I almost never use connected notes for the horns or the trombones, which means a lot of MIDI editing. I agree the trumpets are much more playable. 

I asked Aaron a few times for better retonguing automation. Juulu makes the good point that the way it's set up now enables playable trills and rips, but it's too easy to produce slurs I rarely want to hear and a lot of work to create the kinds of transitions I use a lot more often. :/


----------



## BHF

Tanarri said:


> Yea, SM is the best for solo/studio stuff, especially the trumpet. But for orchestral sections stuff, I use IB. IB Horns are way superior to SM. With some mixing I don't even double them with JXL or CineBrass horns, they can sound really good and playability is light-years better than the traditional sample libs.
> 
> Can't wait for the updates.


Hi, I'm actually hesitating between JXL & Infinite Brass, in which case are you using them and which one would you recommend if you could pick only one keeping the price out of the decision. 90% of the music I write is epic. Thanks for your answer


----------



## DANIELE

BHF said:


> Hi, I'm actually hesitating between JXL & Infinite Brass, in which case are you using them and which one would you recommend if you could pick only one keeping the price out of the decision. 90% of the music I write is epic. Thanks for your answer


I did epic stuff with IB very well. I advise you to wait for the upcoming IB update to decide, maybe there will be new features or improvements that will let you decide better.


----------



## Tanarri

BHF said:


> Hi, I'm actually hesitating between JXL & Infinite Brass, in which case are you using them and which one would you recommend if you could pick only one keeping the price out of the decision. 90% of the music I write is epic. Thanks for your answer


Hi, as Daniele said, wait for the update to see the new features, then decide.

If you don't care for musicality but just want big raw sound, you can go with JXL (although CineBrass still sounds way better IMO, but the legatos are no way near as good, the shorts are also better in JXL, as you get more variants).
(Disclaimer, I only have JXL horns, because I needed to support the CineBrass playability, and they work together really well, I layer them, have mainly the CineBrass sound in the mix, and JXL just adds those better transitions. But that was before having IB, which are WAY more playable than JXL, like no competition here, at all).

You can make IB sound MASSIVE. I was experimenting with IW, used like 5 contrabassoons and 15 bassoons at once , put them through some multiband compression and saturation and it sounded INSANE. I don't think even pre-recorded huge woodwinds sections from other developers sound this huge.
But you have to put some time into it, it's not like you load a patch and that's it. You have to tweak the individual instruments, then mix it all in a particular way to bring the hugeness out.

I still have yet to try layering IB and CineBrass Pro. That could bypass any need for JXL...
So, you see, it's all about preferences, and actual use to see what works for you and what does not. The usual "buying sample libraries" problems.
But with the Infinite playability and options, I, personally, highly doubt I'll ever invest into another libraries (they are the stuff that will finally put my needs to buy more sample libraries to rest).


----------



## BHF

Thanks for the answers. I will see if OT can extend my EDU which is ending at the end of January, otherwise I'll have to make a decision before, THB is too much at 759+VAT. What is making me hesitate for IB is the fact that I'm not that great at mixing orchestral songs but the playability seems to be amazing, it can pull almost every phrase that others libraries can't. The thing is I don't know if I'm willing to take the time to tweak several CC's to get a great result whereas using articulations which I'm already familiar with ... What an headache lol


----------



## DANIELE

BHF said:


> Thanks for the answers. I will see if OT can extend my EDU which is ending at the end of January, otherwise I'll have to make a decision before, THB is too much at 759+VAT. What is making me hesitate for IB is the fact that I'm not that great at mixing orchestral songs but the playability seems to be amazing, it can pull almost every phrase that others libraries can't. The thing is I don't know if I'm willing to take the time to tweak several CC's to get a great result whereas using articulations which I'm already familiar with ... What an headache lol


Well, try to look at this like this:

a sample library force you to do the music that it is able to do well, a virtual instrument let you decide what you want. I used sample libraries for years, I will never go back to them, never.


----------



## Soundbed

BHF said:


> Hi, I'm actually hesitating between JXL & Infinite Brass, in which case are you using them and which one would you recommend if you could pick only one keeping the price out of the decision. 90% of the music I write is epic. Thanks for your answer


I did a lot of "epic" stuff with JXL. It was great for blocky "big brass" stuff. I also love the sound of Teldex and used some Arks and Musical Sampling Trailer Brass and so on.

I haven't used IB for "epic" stuff much, but ... "epic" can mean a lot of different thing to different people (like "pop" or "dance" music can mean different things to different people). So, if you want very broad, emotional, expressive "epic" then IB might be very well suited. JXL can do that as well, but IB might ultimately be more flexible, especially if you add Spectre as an external effect on occasion.

Whereas if you are looking for a contemporary trailer sound, I think JXL might be "easier" in some ways, versus learning to play brass via IB.


----------



## BHF

Soundbed said:


> I did a lot of "epic" stuff with JXL. It was great for blocky "big brass" stuff. I also love the sound of Teldex and used some Arks and Musical Sampling Trailer Brass and so on.
> 
> I haven't used IB for "epic" stuff much, but ... "epic" can mean a lot of different thing to different people (like "pop" or "dance" music can mean different things to different people). So, if you want very broad, emotional, expressive "epic" then IB might be very well suited. JXL can do that as well, but IB might ultimately be more flexible, especially if you add Spectre as an external effect on occasion.
> 
> Whereas if you are looking for a contemporary trailer sound, I think JXL might be "easier" in some ways, versus learning to play brass via IB.


This is what epic is to me 



And the result I would like to reach with either one of those libraries


----------



## BHF

DANIELE said:


> Well, try to look at this like this:
> 
> a sample library force you to do the music that it is able to do well, a virtual instrument let you decide what you want. I used sample libraries for years, I will never go back to them, never.


That's a great insight thank you


----------



## Nando Florestan

How are you guys EQing v2.0 saxophones?

I think they need warmth. My current settings are
187 Hz +4dB Q:1.0
2460 Hz -3dB Q:1.0


----------



## I like music

Nando Florestan said:


> How are you guys EQing v2.0 saxophones?
> 
> I think they need warmth. My current settings are
> 187 Hz +4dB Q:1.0
> 2460 Hz -3dB Q:1.0


It is far too sexy an instrument for me to handle. I stick with horns and trumpets.
(Though when I did try the sax, I felt it was the furthest away from the real thing when compared to the rest of the IB/IW line-up). So sorry, can't help much here, except to say that I feel that EQ won't get us close enough.

All that said, I will give your settings a go just in case. Thanks!


----------



## jvms

Hello there, how is it going? I just got Infinite Brass and Woodwinds and I'm blown away. My favorite libraries by far and so much better than any other flagship library I used before!

I've been testing it out for about a week, and although I really like the results, I gotta say it's a bit tedious to draw in all the CC1 MIDI in my orchestral mockups.

That led to think about getting a Breath and Bite Controller 2 and use it with the libraries. The problem is, I don't play keyboards at all! My plan is to draw all the MIDI notes in and then overdub CC1 and whatever else I want with the Breathcontroller. Will I lose too much by not playing in the notes?

Another thing that worries me is that I tend write tons of fanfare style brass with lots of 16th notes. In order to get this to work in my set up, I believe I would need to draw in a very long note and breath into the Controller in the rhythm that I chose, alternating staccatos and marcatos via my breath, right? In my head, this would be the equivalent of a trumpet player holding down a note with his hands and breathing into the instrument. Would that be a better method than chopping the note and choosing their lengths, as one has to do when programming without a breath controller?

Is it difficult to perform this type of brass playing part using breath controllers? My stuff is usually quite fast (16th notes ant 170, for example) and I wonder if it would even be possible to do it on the controller.

Lastly, are there any examples of Mockups made with Infinite Instruments being played with Breath Controllers (other than the Divisi Mate demos)? I'd love to see how they pair! I've hearda few EWI flutes and trumpets that were killer, but I don't think I've heard any orchestral stuff.

Thanks a lot for the attention!


----------



## aaronventure

jvms said:


> My plan is to draw all the MIDI notes in and then overdub CC1 and whatever else I want with the Breathcontroller. Will I lose too much by not playing in the notes?


Making sure that MIDI notes don't have perfect timing and length can get old rather fast if your DAW doesn't have a humanization feature that can alter both (usually humanization only alters timing). 

You could just play in a single (or two) pitch(es) and making sure you get the rhythm right, which is the fastest way of getting natural timing+duration for notes. Then just move them to their correct pitches in the MIDI editor, and do another pass with a breath controller. 



jvms said:


> Another thing that worries me is that I tend write tons of fanfare style brass with lots of 16th notes. In order to get this to work in my set up, I believe I would need to draw in a very long note and breath into the Controller in the rhythm that I chose, alternating staccatos and marcatos via my breath, right?


Not how Infinite Brass works. These will have to be individual notes/MIDI events. In this case, velocity would be the deciding factor that sets the overall loudness (but also depends on the tempo).


----------



## jvms

aaronventure said:


> Making sure that MIDI notes don't have perfect timing and length can get old rather fast if your DAW doesn't have a humanization feature that can alter both (usually humanization only alters timing).
> 
> You could just play in a single (or two) pitch(es) and making sure you get the rhythm right, which is the fastest way of getting natural timing+duration for notes. Then just move them to their correct pitches in the MIDI editor, and do another pass with a breath controller.
> 
> 
> Not how Infinite Brass works. These will have to be individual notes/MIDI events. In this case, velocity would be the deciding factor that sets the overall loudness (but also depends on the tempo).


Thank you so much for answering! You libraries rule!

By reading the manual on my phone a few hours ago, I was under the impression that if I set the Attack Time to zero and keep CC1 at zero too, I would get no sound untill I turned CC1 up, wich I think would be perfect for a Breath Controller, as it's kinda what happens on a real instrument. I just tried it out after reading your response and it didn't work.

Do you think this could be featured in the libraries in the future? Well, I guess I should ask if this would even work.

Oh, and about the 16th note thing, since the position, length and loudness will be controlled by the MIDI note and it's velocity, the Breath Controller would be of little use, unless I wanted to ramp the whole thing up or down, right? 

Thanks for the attention!


----------



## Nando Florestan

Look. Here's how it works. There is a number from 1 to 127 determining the current intensity of the sound, let's call it X. In all Infinite instruments, when a new phrase is started (or a staccato note is played), note-on velocity determines X during the attack phase. As soon as the attack is on, X starts quickly shifting to the CC1 value. This is all for a short note, therefore, usually you want to keep CC1 very low and control it through key-on velocity, if you are doing short notes.

But if then you play a legato phrase, there is no attack, right?, so X continues to be determined by CC1, while note-on velocity determines the length of the legato transition.

Therefore, you can record stuff with a breath controller, the notes don't have to be the right pitches (that's so easy to correct later). When editing MIDI you want to be seeing velocities and CC1 at once. It's easy to understand then.

In other libraries you gotta know the articulations well and choose the right one (if it exists). That's just as tedious and, guess what, less flexible. Infinite won't save some from tedium but the performance has more potential to be musical.

Why not take piano lessons, by the way? For some people all it takes is for someone to suggest this. I am suggesting it to you. Piano lessons are such a good thing!


----------



## jvms

Nando Florestan said:


> Look. Here's how it works. There is a number from 1 to 127 determining the current intensity of the sound, let's call it X. In all Infinite instruments, when a new phrase is started (or a staccato note is played), note-on velocity determines X during the attack phase. As soon as the attack is on, X starts quickly shifting to the CC1 value. This is all for a short note, therefore, usually you want to keep CC1 very low and control it through key-on velocity, if you are doing short notes.
> 
> But if then you play a legato phrase, there is no attack, right?, so X continues to be determined by CC1, while note-on velocity determines the length of the legato transition.
> 
> Therefore, you can record stuff with a breath controller, the notes don't have to be the right pitches (that's so easy to correct later). When editing MIDI you want to be seeing velocities and CC1 at once. It's easy to understand then.
> 
> In other libraries you gotta know the articulations well and choose the right one (if it exists). That's just as tedious and, guess what, less flexible. Infinite won't save some from tedium but the performance has more potential to be musical.
> 
> Why not take piano lessons, by the way? For some people all it takes is for someone to suggest this. I am suggesting it for you. Piano lessons are such a good thing!


Got it, man, thanks a bunch the reply! I do plan on taking lessons and learning it, but I was hoping I could find an easier way to program for now. I don't want to wait until I'm somewhat proficient to write music, and I thought maybe the Breath controller could help for now.


----------



## I like music

jvms said:


> Got it, man, thanks a bunch the reply! I do plan on taking lessons and learning it, but I was hoping I could find an easier way to program for now. I don't want to wait until I'm somewhat proficient to write music, and I thought maybe the Breath controller could help for now.


There's a couple of my mockups on this thread (including the Enterprise one) where there's places where I've just copy-pasted the same track again to make the ensemble (sometimes you get lazy, ya know) and those parts have actually come out quite nicely. You'd be surprised by how well Infinite can behave even with just copy-pasted data (depending on context and line).


----------



## scoplunk

jvms said:


> By reading the manual on my phone a few hours ago, I was under the impression that if I set the Attack Time to zero and keep CC1 at zero too, I would get no sound untill I turned CC1 up, wich I think would be perfect for a Breath Controller, as it's kinda what happens on a real instrument. I just tried it out after reading your response and it didn't work.


I'm pretty sure you want to change the Attack Range knob to 0, not the Attack Time knob. Also, be sure to have the Dyn. Range slider all the way to the right if you want the note to stop sounding altogether when CC1 goes to 0. It does exactly what you're asking for over here.


----------



## JimDiGritz

My first mockup using primarily IB and IW.



*Infinite Winds:*
ALTO FLUTE I/FLUTE I
ALTO FLUTE II/FLUTE II
ALTO FLUTE III/FLUTE III
OBOE I
OBOE II
ENGLISH HORN
Bb CLARINET I
Bb CLARINET II/Bb BASS CLARINET II
Bb BASS CLARINET III
BASSOON I
BASSOON II
BASSOON III/CONTRABASSOON III

*Infinite Brass:*
F HORN I
F HORN II
F HORN III
F HORN IV
F HORN V
F HORN VI
F HORN VII
F HORN VIII
Bb TRUMPET I
Bb TRUMPET II
Bb TRUMPET III
Bb TRUMPET IV
TROMBONE I
TROMBONE II
TROMBONE III
TROMBONE IV
EUPHONIUM
TUBA

*BBCSO Core:*
TIMPANI
PERCUSSION
HARP I
HARP II

*EWC:*
CHOIR

*Samplemodeling Strings:*
VIOLIN I
VIOLIN II
VIOLA
VIOLONCELLO
CONTRABASS


----------



## Juulu

BHF said:


> This is what epic is to me
> 
> 
> 
> And the result I would like to reach with either one of those libraries



I think IB could pull this off. I haven't written a dark souls like track before, but IB worked great for a hybrid track I wrote a few months back, and I was even using smaller ensemble sizes. I think someone else in this thread has used IB for that style, but I can't remember who it was.


----------



## BHF

Juulu said:


> I think IB could pull this off. I haven't written a dark souls like track before, but IB worked great for a hybrid track I wrote a few months back, and I was even using smaller ensemble sizes. I think someone else in this thread has used IB for that style, but I can't remember who it was.


I think you'll be able to do a lot more in terms of writing with IB, but the sound is what worries me since I'm not great at mixing orchestral. I saw a demo from the website named dyonisia and it sounded great, there are not a lot of "epic" track using IB.
Can you link me your hybrid track please ? And also your video about IB is great I learned quite a few things about the library


----------



## Soundbed

BHF said:


> This is what epic is to me
> 
> 
> 
> And the result I would like to reach with either one of those libraries



Well personally I would start with JXL Brass, and if something wasn’t working, I’d look at the Ark series or Cinebrass /Pro. 

That said, it might be possible with with IB… especially the upper brass. The big lower brass parts, I don’t recall hearing that tone from IB. Someone else could perhaps demonstrate. 

But those lower brass seem what JXL was designed to record. 

I also use Forzo and Trailer Brass, Angry Brass Pro, etc. as tools in the toolbox.


----------



## BHF

Soundbed said:


> Well personally I would start with JXL Brass, and if something wasn’t working, I’d look at the Ark series or Cinebrass /Pro.
> 
> That said, it might be possible with with IB… especially the upper brass. The big lower brass parts, I don’t recall hearing that tone from IB. Someone else could perhaps demonstrate.
> 
> But those lower brass seem what JXL was designed to record.
> 
> I also use Forzo and Trailer Brass, Angry Brass Pro, etc. as tools in the toolbox.


That's why I'm hesitating between IB and JXL. I already own some libraries from OT including ark 1 so JXL would be the easier choice right there and with the edu discount the price is almost the same


----------



## Juulu

BHF said:


> I think you'll be able to do a lot more in terms of writing with IB, but the sound is what worries me since I'm not great at mixing orchestral. I saw a demo from the website named dyonisia and it sounded great, there are not a lot of "epic" track using IB.
> Can you link me your hybrid track please ? And also your video about IB is great I learned quite a few things about the library


Glad it could help! This is the track I was referring to.


----------



## Trash Panda

BHF said:


> This is what epic is to me
> 
> 
> 
> And the result I would like to reach with either one of those libraries



This is the result of about 30 minutes with Infinite Brass on the main motif at 1:08ish. Obviously the rest of the orchestration in this part carries a big weight too.

Only processing is Ozone 10 Vintage Tape on the master with a limiter to increase the volume.

As for the blatty, blasty brass bits and aletoric parts, Infinite can do that, but it will require a fair amount of work to reproduce.

Proud Horsey:
View attachment Bloodborne Ludwig the Accursed-Holy Blade Excerpt.mp3


Edit: Added the MIDI for anyone else who wants to take a crack at it.


----------



## Tanarri

JimDiGritz said:


> My first mockup using primarily IB and IW.
> 
> 
> 
> *Infinite Winds:*
> ALTO FLUTE I/FLUTE I
> ALTO FLUTE II/FLUTE II
> ALTO FLUTE III/FLUTE III
> OBOE I
> OBOE II
> ENGLISH HORN
> Bb CLARINET I
> Bb CLARINET II/Bb BASS CLARINET II
> Bb BASS CLARINET III
> BASSOON I
> BASSOON II
> BASSOON III/CONTRABASSOON III
> 
> *Infinite Brass:*
> F HORN I
> F HORN II
> F HORN III
> F HORN IV
> F HORN V
> F HORN VI
> F HORN VII
> F HORN VIII
> Bb TRUMPET I
> Bb TRUMPET II
> Bb TRUMPET III
> Bb TRUMPET IV
> TROMBONE I
> TROMBONE II
> TROMBONE III
> TROMBONE IV
> EUPHONIUM
> TUBA
> 
> *BBCSO Core:*
> TIMPANI
> PERCUSSION
> HARP I
> HARP II
> 
> *EWC:*
> CHOIR
> 
> *Samplemodeling Strings:*
> VIOLIN I
> VIOLIN II
> VIOLA
> VIOLONCELLO
> CONTRABASS



Ride those CCs, man!


----------



## BHF

Trash Panda said:


> This is the result of about 30 minutes with Infinite Brass on the main motif at 1:08ish. Obviously the rest of the orchestration in this part carries a big weight too.
> 
> Only processing is Ozone 10 Vintage Tape on the master with a limiter to increase the volume.
> 
> As for the blatty, blasty brass bits and aletoric parts, Infinite can do that, but it will require a fair amount of work to reproduce.
> 
> Proud Horsey:
> View attachment Bloodborne Ludwig the Accursed-Holy Blade Excerpt.mp3
> 
> 
> Edit: Added the MIDI for anyone else who wants to take a crack at it.


Thanks a lot, if you ever get the chance to mock up the part with IB & JXL to show the difference between them when we first hear the brass at 0:35 I will be forever grateful, I saw that you own both library and it will help a lot to choose between both. 

EDIT : I saw during the Bloodborne GDC that they used for the brass :

- 6 horns 
- 4 trombones 
- 1 cimbasso 

And sometimes to reinforce the low brass (which seems to be the case here) 2 tenor trombones, bass trombone, contrabass trombone, cimbasso & tuba 

If that can help for the orchestration


----------



## BHF

Juulu said:


> Glad it could help! This is the track I was referring to.



The track is great and IB sounds very good here, did you process it ? And what did you use if so


----------



## Loïc D

It reminds me… Weeks ago I posted yet another Star Wars mockup.
Brass & WW are exclusively Infinite.


----------



## Trash Panda

BHF said:


> Thanks a lot, if you ever get the chance to mock up the part with IB & JXL to show the difference between them when we first hear the brass at 0:35 I will be forever grateful, I saw that you own both library and it will help a lot to choose between both.
> 
> EDIT : I saw during the Bloodborne GDC that they used for the brass :
> 
> - 6 horns
> - 4 trombones
> - 1 cimbasso
> 
> And sometimes to reinforce the low brass (which seems to be the case here) 2 tenor trombones, bass trombone, contrabass trombone, cimbasso & tuba
> 
> If that can help for the orchestration


I am familiar with the Bloodborne setup. Check out The Hunter cover in my YouTube or SoundCloud channels (brass in that is JXL). They actually abandoned the restriction on instruments in the DLC.

Here's the same passage with JXL. It's a bit of a "cheat" since the Bass Trombones are a3 (no solo) so the low end is a bit more full. Mics used are the unprocessed Close 2 and Tree mics.

Proud Horsey JXL:
View attachment Bloodborne Ludwig the Accursed-Holy Blade Excerpt JXL.mp3


----------



## Juulu

BHF said:


> The track is great and IB sounds very good here, did you process it ? And what did you use if so


Not much. Just some eq, compression, limiting.


----------



## Soundbed

Trash Panda said:


> I am familiar with the Bloodborne setup. Check out The Hunter cover in my YouTube or SoundCloud channels (brass in that is JXL). They actually abandoned the restriction on instruments in the DLC.
> 
> Here's the same passage with JXL. It's a bit of a "cheat" since the Bass Trombones are a3 (no solo) so the low end is a bit more full. Mics used are the unprocessed Close 2 and Tree mics.
> 
> Proud Horsey JXL:
> View attachment Bloodborne Ludwig the Accursed-Holy Blade Excerpt JXL.mp3


I think this says a lot!


----------



## BHF

Trash Panda said:


> I am familiar with the Bloodborne setup. Check out The Hunter cover in my YouTube or SoundCloud channels (brass in that is JXL). They actually abandoned the restriction on instruments in the DLC.
> 
> Here's the same passage with JXL. It's a bit of a "cheat" since the Bass Trombones are a3 (no solo) so the low end is a bit more full. Mics used are the unprocessed Close 2 and Tree mics.
> 
> Proud Horsey JXL:
> View attachment Bloodborne Ludwig the Accursed-Holy Blade Excerpt JXL.mp3


The brass in the hunter mock up is really great, the brass in there is very close to the original. From the exemple I'd say JXL but the in your face effect seems to be from the close mics, which one did you use on the infinite one ? Infinite brass + Berlin studio can be a winning match to get the best of both world


----------



## BHF

Soundbed said:


> I think this says a lot!


The sound out of the box of jxl is really at the top


----------



## Jonathan Moray

@Trash Panda, could you repost the MIDI, it only includes the top line/melody. Could you include the chords and bass notes as well?


----------



## Trash Panda

Jonathan Moray said:


> @Trash Panda, could you repost the MIDI, it only includes the top line/melody. Could you include the chords and bass notes as well?


Weird. Let's try this again.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Trash Panda said:


> Weird. Let's try this again.



Thanks! Seems to have worked this time.


----------



## Trash Panda

BHF said:


> The brass in the hunter mock up is really great, the brass in there is very close to the original. From the exemple I'd say JXL but the in your face effect seems to be from the close mics, which one did you use on the infinite one ? Infinite brass + Berlin studio can be a winning match to get the best of both world


I have the Infinite Brass Mic Mix 3 and 4 in use within Mozarteum.

For JXL, I was using Close 2 and Tree at 0 dB.

Here's JXL again at Close 2 -5 dB, Tree 0 dB, Surround 1 -10 dB, which should be roughly similar to Mic Mix 3 in IB.

View attachment Bloodborne Ludwig the Accursed-Holy Blade Excerpt JXL.mp3


----------



## JimDiGritz

Tanarri said:


> Ride those CCs, man!


Umm, are you suggesting too much or too little CC/Dynamics?

Every line of every instrument has almost every CC available moving!

My ears are dead after working on that for several days solid...

Part of me thinks that I've spent 100+ hours and £2,000 to _almost _achieve what Dorico/Musescore would produce automatically..... 😭


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Two versions, the first is only IB and the second is layered with another library in the background (-12dB) just to add a little thickness. The second one is probably what I would do in a real scenario if you want that rather aggressive and thick sound used in the Bloodborne soundtrack, maybe even raise the layered sounds a bit more.

IB only
View attachment IB -- Ludwig, the Holy Blade - 001 (2023-01-03_2201).mp3


IB layered
View attachment IB -- Ludwig, the Holy Blade - 001 (2023-01-03_2159).mp3


EDIT: Worth noting that I didn't spend very much time on this, and barely any time on the trombones and even less on the tuba. The trombones especially are hard to make sound good and I think it's the number one thing most hope will be fixed in version 2.0 of brass. Still, I think it sounds alright but I'm pretty fatigued and listening on headphones. Thanks again to Trash Panda for the midi.


----------



## morganwable

Juulu said:


> Glad it could help! This is the track I was referring to.



what did you use for the strings in this?


----------



## BHF

Trash Panda said:


> I have the Infinite Brass Mic Mix 3 and 4 in use within Mozarteum.
> 
> For JXL, I was using Close 2 and Tree at 0 dB.
> 
> Here's JXL again at Close 2 -5 dB, Tree 0 dB, Surround 1 -10 dB, which should be roughly similar to Mic Mix 3 in IB.
> 
> View attachment Bloodborne Ludwig the Accursed-Holy Blade Excerpt JXL.mp3


Thank you it sounds much closer to the IB exemple, it sounds more full but not as much as I thought. Since you're using both do you layer them often ? And for which case you'll choose one over another ?


----------



## BHF

Jonathan Moray said:


> Two versions, the first is only IB and the second is layered with another library in the background (-12dB) just to add a little thickness. The second one is probably what I would do in a real scenario if you want that rather aggressive and thick sound used in the Bloodborne soundtrack, maybe even raise the layered sounds a bit more.
> 
> IB only
> View attachment IB -- Ludwig, the Holy Blade - 001 (2023-01-03_2201).mp3
> 
> 
> IB layered
> View attachment IB -- Ludwig, the Holy Blade - 001 (2023-01-03_2159).mp3
> 
> 
> EDIT: Worth noting that I didn't spend very much time on this, and barely any time on the trombones and even less on the tuba. The trombones especially are hard to make sound good and I think it's the number one thing most hope will be fixed in version 2.0 of brass. Still, I think it sounds alright but I'm pretty fatigued and listening on headphones. Thanks again to Trash Panda for the midi.


Thank you it sounds great and as you said I'm sure with more time spent editing CC's it would be even better. Since I own Ark 1 I could use it for the additional layer but even IB on its own sounded great


----------



## Trash Panda

BHF said:


> Thank you it sounds much closer to the IB exemple, it sounds more full but not as much as I thought. Since you're using both do you layer them often ? And for which case you'll choose one over another ?


In general, I try to avoid layering where possible.

I usually either use Infinite exclusively for the brass/woodwinds in a piece, or maybe bring in a single instrument or two into a group if I'm using something more traditional like Arks, Berlin or AROOF, but that's pretty rare these days for me.

For example, this long-abandoned attempt at OWAR from FF7R is primarily AROOF, with the following from Infinite to augment its shortcomings.

Infinite Brass Trumpet in Mozarteum Mic Mix 5 mirroring the trumpet lines to connect notes better and play the muted solo at 1:25.
Infinite Piccolo and Flute 1 to mirror the high woodwinds and improve the runs/trills cohesion since AROOF lacks these.
French Horn 1 & 2 to mirror the horn lines and add a little extra connection to the horn octave jumps like at 0:15


----------



## BHF

Trash Panda said:


> In general, I try to avoid layering where possible.
> 
> I usually either use Infinite exclusively for the brass/woodwinds in a piece, or maybe bring in a single instrument or two into a group if I'm using something more traditional like Arks, Berlin or AROOF, but that's pretty rare these days for me.
> 
> For example, this long-abandoned attempt at OWAR from FF7R is primarily AROOF, with the following from Infinite to augment its shortcomings.
> 
> Infinite Brass Trumpet in Mozarteum Mic Mix 5 mirroring the trumpet lines to connect notes better and play the muted solo at 1:25.
> Infinite Piccolo and Flute 1 to mirror the high woodwinds and improve the runs/trills cohesion since AROOF lacks these.
> French Horn 1 & 2 to mirror the horn lines and add a little extra connection to the horn octave jumps like at 0:15



This is great why did you abandoned it ? You think IB would be able to pull out the hunter mock up you did similarly as JXL ? I know the orchestration should be no problem but I'm talking more about the sound


----------



## Trash Panda

BHF said:


> This is great why did you abandoned it ? You think IB would be able to pull out the hunter mock up you did similarly as JXL ? I know the orchestration should be no problem but I'm talking more about the sound


Prior to picking up most of OT's catalogue, I had been attempting to do The Hunter with Infinite Brass following the same lineup as in the GDC presentation with CSS and CSSS. I just ended up liking the results with Berlin Strings and JXL Brass more. 🤷‍♂️

As for OWAR, I got sick of trying to shoehorn AROOF into a piece it wasn't meant to be able to do. Was such a headache managing so many things that I shouldn't have to (such as stacking longs and staccatos to fake runs and trills, massaging release timings, etc.). The second half just required way more control and nuance than AROOF could offer.


----------



## Juulu

morganwable said:


> what did you use for the strings in this?


The strings are CSS


----------



## Trash Panda

Well then…this guy is pretty good.


----------



## Lord Daknight

Daily Sacrifice to the Infinite one


----------



## shawnsingh

What is the character saying though. Need subtitles...


----------



## Juulu

We might just scare Aaron away...


----------



## Lord Daknight

shawnsingh said:


> What is the character saying though. Need subtitles...


Koharu-chan is saying "Aaron Venture's Infinite Brass!" And then she says, uh, something else...


----------



## gedlig

Lord Daknight said:


> Daily Sacrifice to the Infinite one


omg the ending


----------



## gedlig

Now you're obligated to make an IB cover of that bakemonogatari intro


----------



## Lord Daknight

gedlig said:


> Now you're obligated to make an IB cover of that bakemonogatari intro


What's that? make an orchestral cover of Hammer Smashed face?


----------



## doctoremmet

Lord Daknight said:


> Daily Sacrifice to the Infinite one


Coolest thing I’ve heard this year


----------



## gedlig

Lord Daknight said:


> What's that? make an orchestral cover of Hammer Smashed face?


Not enough UwU >:(


----------



## Lunatique

Has anyone here successfully used MPE controllers with the Infinite series? I have an Osmose and Roli Seaboard ordered and I'd love to be able play IW and IB with the same kind of expressiveness as that stunning video of the Seaboard playing Gershwin on the SWAM clarinet.


----------



## doctoremmet

Lunatique said:


> Has anyone here successfully used MPE controllers with the Infinite series? I have an Osmose and Roli Seaboard ordered and I'd love to be able play IW and IB with the same kind of expressiveness as that stunning video of the Seaboard playing Gershwin on the SWAM clarinet.



Hooking up Kontakt (in fact multiple instances of it) to a Roli is not fun. Unfortunately it always takes some hacking because Kontakt just doesn’t support MPE. And then there’s a rather big learning curve as well before you reach that kind of stunning expression


----------



## jason3.14

Juulu said:


> Glad it could help! This is the track I was referring to.



Dang that mix... sounds amazing! I only recently started using IB - I like it and think it got the job done in my most recent Genshin medley that you commented on in another thread, though I haven't learned to wield it to the extent you used it here. Very encouraging!


----------



## jason3.14

Lord Daknight said:


> Daily Sacrifice to the Infinite one


Besides being hilarious, in all seriousness did you manually tune Koharu-chan from Synth V to make talking vocals...?? Cause if so then that's impressive, and great cause I just picked Synth V Pro haha


----------



## jason3.14

Lunatique said:


> Has anyone here successfully used MPE controllers with the Infinite series? I have an Osmose and Roli Seaboard ordered and I'd love to be able play IW and IB with the same kind of expressiveness as that stunning video of the Seaboard playing Gershwin on the SWAM clarinet.



I don't know much about how SWAM differs in use compared to the Infinite Series, but would also be very interested in how people have fared using the latter with a keyboard like this (since I'm a pianist and don't think that a Breath Controller would suit me as well)


----------



## decredis

jason3.14 said:


> I don't know much about how SWAM differs in use compared to the Infinite Series, but would also be very interested in how people have fared using the latter with a keyboard like this (since I'm a pianist and don't think that a Breath Controller would suit me as well)


I know this isn't what you're asking, but in response to your parenthesis: piano is my only instrument, but I find using a breath controller very intuitive. I've seen it said that we all have experience (even just through talking) of producing natural dynamic arcs with our breath; and that chimes with my experience. 

I suspect getting used to a Roli might be a steeper learning curve, as it involves using a keyboard in a way quite unlike what we're used to as pianists. That said, I'd love to try one.


----------



## jason3.14

Thx for the input


----------



## TomaeusD

doctoremmet said:


> Hooking up Kontakt (in fact multiple instances of it) to a Roli is not fun. Unfortunately it always takes some hacking because Kontakt just doesn’t support MPE. And then there’s a rather big learning curve as well before you reach that kind of stunning expression


If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Slate & Ash Auras support MPE out of the box? As far as getting Infinite to work with Roli, yeah that probably would be a pain unless Aaron designed around MPE from the beginning, which I don't think is the case.


----------



## doctoremmet

TomaeusD said:


> out of the box


Maybe they have multis pre-setup? Kontakt itself does not support MPE, it requires this:






Kontakt: Using BLOCKS with Kontakt : ROLI Support


ROLI Support for ROLI instruments including Seaboard RISE, Seaboard GRAND, BLOCKS, Equator, NOISE, Seaboard Block, Lightpad Block, and more




rolisupport.freshdesk.com


----------



## TomaeusD

doctoremmet said:


> Maybe they have multis pre-setup? Kontakt itself does not support MPE, it requires this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kontakt: Using BLOCKS with Kontakt : ROLI Support
> 
> 
> ROLI Support for ROLI instruments including Seaboard RISE, Seaboard GRAND, BLOCKS, Equator, NOISE, Seaboard Block, Lightpad Block, and more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rolisupport.freshdesk.com


Ah I think you're right, it's the multis. Though they do claim in the description that "Auras is the first Kontakt library designed to work with *MPE* multi-touch technology such as that found on the ROLI Seaboard or Haken Continuum."


----------



## Lord Daknight

jason3.14 said:


> Besides being hilarious, in all seriousness did you manually tune Koharu-chan from Synth V to make talking vocals...?? Cause if so then that's impressive, and great cause I just picked Synth V Pro haha


Actually I used Koharu Rikka from CeVIO AI which has a talking simulator. Really convincing I think, but you gotta know how Japanese pitch accent works and have Japanese input, cause these specialised vocal synths are deeper into the Japanese vocal synth rabbit hole which I apologise in advance for igniting any GAS for

Anyway onto making the Aaron Venture Anime


----------



## AR

Why don't you guys consider a Tec Breath Controller v2? It's so much fun to play Infinite Series with that. Was my best investment during the holidays.


----------



## DANIELE

AR said:


> Why don't you guys consider a Tec Breath Controller v2? It's so much fun to play Infinite Series with that. Was my best investment during the holidays.


I second this. It is one of the best controllers out there, really intuitive and you have your hands free.


----------



## mgaewsj

DANIELE said:


> I second this. It is one of the best controllers out there, really intuitive and you have your hands free.


not exactly cheap though


----------



## AR

mgaewsj said:


> not exactly cheap though


compared to the Osmose and Touche and Roli, it is actually (if you already name a midi keyboard your own). And like @DANIELE said: you have your hands free. For me as a non-pianist it is a relief, cause I played with right hand and had my left hand always on the modwheel. Now, I can play melodies with 2 hands and move my head like a woodwind player and immediatly get close to the perfect amount of vibrato & dynamics musician would play.


----------



## DANIELE

mgaewsj said:


> not exactly cheap though


True, but it deserves all the money it costs.

I always use it when I try new instruments or when I think about melodies. I also record some passages with it and it feels so natural, better than drawing everything by hand.


----------



## Evans

TEC B&B2 is less expensive than that fourth, fifth, or seventh unnecessary strings library that people end up buying.


----------



## Mikro93

Evans said:


> TEC B&B2 is less expensive than that fourth, fifth, or seventh unnecessary strings library that people end up buying.


I hate it when you're making sense


----------



## mgaewsj

DANIELE said:


> True, but it deserves all the money it costs.
> 
> I always use it when I try new instruments or when I think about melodies. I also record some passages with it and it feels so natural, better than drawing everything by hand.


ok, I guess I will think about it when the next sale will be up (if ever)


----------



## mgaewsj

Evans said:


> TEC B&B2 is less expensive than that fourth, fifth, or seventh unnecessary strings library that people end up buying.


I see your point,
however while I would definitely use it for winds and brass (I used a Yamaha BC3 many years ago btw), using a BC with strings feels completely unnatural to me (perhaps it's only a matter of getting used to it)


----------



## DANIELE

mgaewsj said:


> I see your point,
> however while I would definitely use it for winds and brass (I used a Yamaha BC3 many years ago btw), using a BC with strings feels completely unnatural to me (perhaps it's only a matter of getting used to it)


I love to use it especially for the strings. I find a lot less intuitive to use a modwheel.

With your voice you are naturally able to emulate a string sound very well if you want and the if you think about the bow moving on the strings while you are breathing in the controller you will get a very good sound (it depends also on the virtual instrument you are using of course).

You can try to move your hand like you are using a bow and follow it with your breath or with your voice and look at the results.
Maybe you will not be able to get very fast passages but you will be surprised with the versatility of that controller.


----------



## Evans

mgaewsj said:


> I see your point,
> however while I would definitely use it for winds and brass (I used a Yamaha BC3 many years ago btw), using a BC with strings feels completely unnatural to me (perhaps it's only a matter of getting used to it)


There's also Bite, Nod, and Tilt sensors if the "Breath" part feels unnatural to you for strings.

I do think it's just a matter of getting used to it (as you said), similar to how a modwheel can eventually feel "natural" for wind instruments even though there's no real-life mimicry.


----------



## Loïc D

I’d like to try a BC, but I’m afraid that my wife will see me bite, nod, tilt, breath and making strange noises and she’ll call 911.


----------



## Soundbed

Evans said:


> TEC B&B2 is less expensive than that fourth, fifth, or seventh unnecessary strings library that people end up buying.


19th


----------



## Evans

Soundbed said:


> 19th


My apologies for the gross inaccuracy.


----------



## gamma-ut

mgaewsj said:


> however while I would definitely use it for winds and brass (I used a Yamaha BC3 many years ago btw), using a BC with strings feels completely unnatural to me (perhaps it's only a matter of getting used to it)


You get used to it. Another option is the ExpressiveE Touché (SE), as it's fairly natural to do bowing-type actions and even the digging action for grindy strings (if the library supports that kind of thing). I find the Touché is better for the libraries that have actual bowing simulation, such as SWAM or EE's Arché, but breath works pretty well for string lines. One advantage breath has is that it reminds you to let up on successive legato transitions as you can kind of equate breath to bow length.


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## blender505

I just got my TEC breath and bite controller this weekend and it's been a blast to play with the infinite libraries. Definitely a game changer and makes me less afraid of using them in my writing since it's so easy to input a pretty convincing performance.

If only I had infinite breath though...


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## gamma-ut

blender505 said:


> If only I had infinite breath though...


It's your body's way of telling you your legato lines are too long.


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## Lunatique

AR said:


> Why don't you guys consider a Tec Breath Controller v2? It's so much fun to play Infinite Series with that. Was my best investment during the holidays.


Already have one. The only thing left for me to figure out is how to get perfectly controlled pitch slide/portamento. This is the main reason why I ordered an Osmose and a Seaboard. With Kontakt libraries, it'll take a customized setup to get it to work, and I'll be spending time on that today.


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## Soundbed

mgaewsj said:


> ok, I guess I will think about it when the next sale will be up (if ever)


I was under the impression they don't go on sale. (?)






TEC USB MIDI Breath and Bite Controller 2


Does anyone know if these ever go on sale?




vi-control.net


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## Ricgus3

I am using an EWI and for anyone else being a wind/brass player it is super nice!


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## TomaeusD

The original TEC Breath Controller goes for 149.99 EUR whereas Breath and Bite 2 is 269.99 EUR (both without VAT). If you don't need bite, tilt, or nod then it's quite affordable for what it can do for your workflow and sound.


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## HitEmTrue

sound team apk said:


> I was doing some Brahms mockups to compare IB and SM Brass in another thread. I just gave up on SM in my latest practice section, so I'm going to post just the IB version here so I can ask a question.
> 
> This is a really dramatic part of the 4th movement of the Brahms 1st symphony (though it's embarrassing to post a Brahms mockup of any kind after Dan's on the Pacific demo thread...):
> 
> View attachment IB Mozarteum Fast Version.mp3
> 
> 
> Mozarteum mix mic 5, completely unprocessed -- no limiter, nothing. The winds are also all Infinite, though I was comparing brass libraries so I only made the strings and winds plausible enough for context. I stopped arbitrarily after feeling like I'd learned enough, so some things I think come off pretty well, while there are other bits I'd still obsess over if I really wanted to finish it.
> 
> I was very pleased with how IB handled the chords at the beginning and (especially) the end. I was reading on another thread that some people Infinite sounds like angry bees. I used a lot of dynamics above 110 here, especially in the horns (which frequently go well into the 120s). But I don't think I hear many bees...
> 
> If anything my problem is that I still haven't quite figured out how to make really sharp marcato shorts sound buzzy enough. I was trying to get the Infinite Horns (which I think are great) to play a note that's super fuzzy, puffs out very briefly, but then decays almost immediately. That's something I hear in the horns all the time. The ones from 0:08-0:15 are far too mushy, though IB handles marcatos of the kind from 0:17-0:20 quite well. Anyone have any ideas? Do I need to resort to pushing super-high dynamics but lowering CC11? I typically avoid that.


Hey that sounds nice. Can you point me in the direction Dan's mockup?

I'm new to attempting orchestral work...I'm starting on Brahm's 4th symphony to give me practice material.

( edit ) Found short excerpt posted by Dan on page 5 of the Pacific demo thread.


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## Soundbed

TomaeusD said:


> The original TEC Breath Controller goes for 149.99 EUR whereas Breath and Bite 2 is 269.99 EUR (both without VAT). If you don't need bite, tilt, or nod then it's quite affordable for what it can do for your workflow and sound.


I always assume I'll want everything eventually and no longer buy the less expensive version thinking I'll sell it and get something more expensive down the line. Because I don't sell it.


sound team apk said:


> I was doing some Brahms mockups to compare IB and SM Brass in another thread. I just gave up on SM in my latest practice section, so I'm going to post just the IB version here so I can ask a question.
> 
> This is a really dramatic part of the 4th movement of the Brahms 1st symphony (though it's embarrassing to post a Brahms mockup of any kind after Dan's on the Pacific demo thread...):
> 
> View attachment IB Mozarteum Fast Version.mp3
> 
> 
> Mozarteum mix mic 5, completely unprocessed -- no limiter, nothing. The winds are also all Infinite, though I was comparing brass libraries so I only made the strings and winds plausible enough for context. I stopped arbitrarily after feeling like I'd learned enough, so some things I think come off pretty well, while there are other bits I'd still obsess over if I really wanted to finish it.
> 
> I was very pleased with how IB handled the chords at the beginning and (especially) the end. I was reading on another thread that some people Infinite sounds like angry bees. I used a lot of dynamics above 110 here, especially in the horns (which frequently go well into the 120s). But I don't think I hear many bees...
> 
> If anything my problem is that I still haven't quite figured out how to make really sharp marcato shorts sound buzzy enough. I was trying to get the Infinite Horns (which I think are great) to play a note that's super fuzzy, puffs out very briefly, but then decays almost immediately. That's something I hear in the horns all the time. The ones from 0:08-0:15 are far too mushy, though IB handles marcatos of the kind from 0:17-0:20 quite well. Anyone have any ideas? Do I need to resort to pushing super-high dynamics but lowering CC11? I typically avoid that.


I think this sounds really good, but I hear the ask for the buzzy arc ... I have been looking for that as well; real instrumentalists can introduce it after the attack subtly, but samples usually put it all near attack, or, don't have it at all. IB can be very tricky to achieve a resemblance.

I don't know if this will help but here goes:

cc1 at max
velocity at lowest
adjust attack time to get the "buzzy" sound whenever you need it

How does that sound?


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## ALittleNightMusic

I've resisted getting a TEC breath controller because I'm not a wind instrument player in general and don't know if my slobbering will yield anything particularly nuanced or controlled with that thing in my mouth. Another option is something like the Genki Wave, which I have and is pretty handy for expressive control - similar to the Leap Motion that Aaron uses in his video walkthroughs.


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## shawnsingh

Soundbed said:


> I don't know if this will help but here goes:
> 
> cc1 at max
> velocity at lowest
> adjust attack time to get the "buzzy" sound whenever you need it


I wonder, do you mean "adjust attack time via CC1" or "via the attack control in the Kontakt instrument" ?

Here's a similar but different thinking that works for me:

Sculpt attack by monolithically trying combinations of note velocity and different CC1 shapes on the onset of the sound. Over time it becomes easier to predict which combination of CC1 shape and note velocity will achieve the type of attack you want. This works particularly for rounded power notes where the bite comes in shortly after the initial attack. I haven't felt the need to adjust attack time with this approach.


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## shawnsingh

In any case, it seems like @sound team apk may already have thought of these things. My first reaction was to ask whether there was some EQ that removes a lot of brightness in the first place?


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## Soundbed

shawnsingh said:


> I wonder, do you mean "adjust attack time via CC1" or "via the attack control in the Kontakt instrument" ?
> 
> Here's a similar but different thinking that works for me:
> 
> Sculpt attack by monolithically trying combinations of note velocity and different CC1 shapes on the onset of the sound. Over time it becomes easier to predict which combination of CC1 shape and note velocity will achieve the type of attack you want. This works particularly for rounded power notes where the bite comes in shortly after the initial attack. I haven't felt the need to adjust attack time with this approach.


No, not adjust attack time with cc1 or directly via Kontakt. 

I mean assign a different cc to attack time.

At the lowest velocity but the highest mod wheel, attack time can reliably adjust when the “buzz” or slight cuivre enters; not at the note onset but at some point later as an ‘arc’ — it can “puff out” …

To bring it back down, lower the mod wheel. Reset the attack time to wherever it was before. 


shawnsingh said:


> combinations of note velocity and different CC1 shapes on the onset





shawnsingh said:


> I haven't felt the need to adjust attack time with this approach.


Okay … I was simply suggesting that when mod wheel is at the top and velocity is at the bottom, attack time is what determines when the “bite” comes in. Yes, there may be other techniques to try. 



shawnsingh said:


> EQ that removes a lot of brightness


I thought the objective was to choose when the brightness happened, not remove it. (?)

@sound team apk wrote:

“play a note that's super fuzzy, puffs out very briefly, but then decays”

My steps seems to do that for me, but ymmv.


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## shawnsingh

Soundbed said:


> I mean assign a different cc to attack time.


Yeah, different from my style. I will have to try this at some point.



Soundbed said:


> I thought the objective was to choose when the brightness happened, not remove it.


Agreed - I was proposing a different explanation. Based on their post, I was more inclined to first ask if some rogue EQ setting may be the cause of not being able to get the desired brightness at high CC values.

Cheers!


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## sound team apk

Soundbed said:


> I thought the objective was to choose when the brightness happened, not remove it. (?)
> 
> @sound team apk wrote:
> 
> “play a note that's super fuzzy, puffs out very briefly, but then decays”
> 
> My steps seems to do that for me, but ymmv.


Thanks for the thoughts!

I went back to find an example of the sound to make sure I'm clear. To the extent there are arcs, they're very short.

A lot of recordings I checked on youtube that I could link aren't as "tight and fuzzy" as my original reference. For example, this version has a similar effect as my mock -- you can hear brassiness, but it's not "sharp and tight and puffy":



(marcatos are ~16:13 -- warning: I think this performance is _dreadful_. Listen at your own risk)

This Karajan one sounds a bit more like my reference, and it's fuzzier than what I achieved. The obvious distortion later in the tutti chords suggests there may be another explanation for the fuzz, but my reference is pristinely recorded and yet definitely sounds more like this than my mock:



(marcatos are at 16:16 -- sterner warning: I like this even less than the Zander one. OMG. Does anyone understand that "allegro" means "fast"?)

Anyway. Hopefully that makes what I was attempting clearer. Not sure if it changes your advice 

Since my original post, I did try messing with the ADSR and also the attack time knob. It hasn't helped so far. Everything I've tried still leaves the decay too long, so the sound is "mushier." One thing I've considered is that the Mozarteum IRs just aren't right for this.

Or...



shawnsingh said:


> In any case, it seems like @sound team apk may already have thought of these things. My first reaction was to ask whether there was some EQ that removes a lot of brightness in the first place?


My mock snippet was totally unprocessed to show how the loud brass sounds without any help. However, the "rogue EQ" could be my mic selection. I'm using mic mix 5. I typically like mix 5 a lot, but maybe the ambient mics bring too much darkness here. My reference could be using some close mics, while the other recordings with a tone more similar to mine may be more tree oriented. Then again, my reference is from "Boston Hall A," where brass (not to mention everything else) just sounds _unbelievable ..._ at some point, there are things I can't hope to even approximate in a dry library without processing.

And as a reminder, this is minor quibbling. I agree Infinite sounds really good here for the most part, and it would sound better in my actual template with some saturation and stuff.


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## NeonMediaKJT

I made this track inspired by the new evil dead movie. Infinite brass is the driving library. Some layering for low brass staccato and one trumpet from sample modeling to act as a bitey close mic of sorts


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## TomaeusD

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I made this track inspired by the new evil dead movie. Infinite brass is the driving library. Some layering for low brass staccato and one trumpet from sample modeling to act as a bitey close mic of sorts



You make Infinite Brass sound so good! Dang. Would love to see some of the settings or a DAWcast. Also curious about the different strings you used - they're very cohesive! Nice work.


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## Soundbed

sound team apk said:


> Hopefully that makes what I was attempting clearer. Not sure if it changes your advice


Ah! I understand now. You're looking to make the endings tighter... I think I did misunderstand.

Well what I would try is automating only the AMB mic from Mozarteum, only for the endings of those notes. It might sound okay "in the mix" (as it were) but some might disagree.

(NOTE - you'd have to take it off mixed mic 5 and recreate that mix without the button clicked, because the mics cannot be automated when the mixed mic is on.)

Here is a version where I was trying to perform it live, but you would try to perfect it in the DAW with automation:


fwiw here's what I was initially hoping to demonstrate, because I was mistakenly thinking of the longer notes that came in a few seconds earlier:

(ignore the vibrato depth, I bumped it up accidentally)

All notes are lowest velocity and highest mod wheel, and attack time helps "bloom" the buzzy sound predictably, whenever desired.


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## AR

Evans said:


> There's also Bite, Nod, and Tilt sensors if the "Breath" part feels unnatural to you for strings.
> 
> I do think it's just a matter of getting used to it (as you said), similar to how a modwheel can eventually feel "natural" for wind instruments even though there's no real-life mimicry.


While the average string libraries have not so many dynamic layers, a BC is simply over the top, cause you will hear clearly the recording changes from mp to mf to ff etc. But I used the BC on a demo track for Pacific Strings (cause of its many dynamic layers). Total pleasure. Look it up in the Pacific Demo Thread. It is much more natural than riding a modwheel on your keyboard.


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## AR

TomaeusD said:


> The original TEC Breath Controller goes for 149.99 EUR whereas Breath and Bite 2 is 269.99 EUR (both without VAT). If you don't need bite, tilt, or nod then it's quite affordable for what it can do for your workflow and sound.


If you are especially considering working with Infinite series and a BC, I would go for the BC2, because then you can assign (well so did I) Nod to Vibrato Depth, Tilt to Vibrato Rate, Bite to Flutter and Breath to Dynamics. Then you load up the Clarinet, keep your left hand on the Pitchbend and release your inner Klezmer. What a fun to play!!!


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## xenos

AR said:


> If you are especially considering working with Infinite series and a BC, I would go for the BC2, because then you can assign (well so did I) Nod to Vibrato Depth, Tilt to Vibrato Rate, Bite to Flutter and Breath to Dynamics. Then you load up the Clarinet, keep your left hand on the Pitchbend and release your inner Klezmer. What a fun to play!!!


Wow that sound very nice. To be honest, im intresting in BBC TEC2 since some time. Especially for Infinite and maybe Berlin series. Is it possible for You to make some demonstration how You set this up and how this can sound? (on your klezmer style for example You mention but also any other You want hehe) That would be awesome.


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