# Are sample libraries overpriced?



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Very curious as to why so many libraries seem to be unreasonably priced?


----------



## Sarah Mancuso (Sep 25, 2022)

They're not.

Sample libraries are targeting a vastly smaller audience than albums or TV shows. Because they are sold to far fewer people, prices need to be higher to recoup production costs.

Larger companies are more able to have "loss leaders" in their catalog, but I think it's unreasonable to expect that from every developer, and certainly impossible to expect it from every product. Many products from Spitfire's Originals series are things that they recorded over a decade ago and have already made back their full investment on.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 25, 2022)

Because it costs a hell of a lot of money to rent AIR, and fifty players, for five days. And the customer base is pretty small. Do the math.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Because it costs a hell of a lot of money to rent AIR, and fifty players, for five days. And the customer base is pretty small. Do the math.


This is the argument that I strongly disagree with. The customer shouldn’t have to pay for any of those things regardless of how large or small the market is for a product. Literally nobody could afford a ticket to even the smallest budget movie if this was the case, as it cost a substantial amount of money to produce a low budget movie. Nobody would ever go to the theatre if ticket prices reflected the time/money spent going into production.

The market for a Vinyl soundtrack of Dune is likely a very small niche market, but it’s still available for the same amount of money as any other vinyl out there.

The music production community is not small by any means, I see young and old people everyday curious about producing music across a wide range of genres.


----------



## d.healey (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Literally nobody could afford a ticket to even the smallest budget movie if this was the case, as it cost a substantial amount of money to produce a low budget movie. Nobody would ever go to the theatre if ticket prices reflected the time/money spent going into production.


The manufacturer has a cost that must be covered by the total sales. Doesn't matter if it's a movie, a car, or a sample library.


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Are sample libraries overpriced?


They are for dumbasses like me who have no compositional skills and basically just collect them. Out of $14,568 spent, I've lost over $6k and will likely never buy another library. I'd agree they are very inexpensive versus the alternative they are meant to substitute.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> This is the argument that I strongly disagree with. The customer shouldn’t have to pay for any of those things regardless of how large or small the market is for a product.


Erm… yes they do. I’m an economist and I’m pretty sure that’s how that works. But hey, it seems you’re not looking for an actual discourse. You just wanted to make a point. Noted.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> This is the argument that I strongly disagree with. The customer shouldn’t have to pay for any of those things regardless of how large or small the market is for a product. Literally nobody could afford a ticket to even the smallest budget movie if this was the case, as it cost a substantial amount of money to produce a low budget movie. Nobody would ever go to the theatre if ticket prices reflected the time/money spent going into production.
> 
> The market for a Vinyl soundtrack of Dune is likely a very small niche market, but it’s still available for the same amount of money as any other vinyl out there.
> 
> The music production community is not small by any means, I see young and old people everyday curious about producing music across a wide range of genres.


You’re comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## Paj (Sep 25, 2022)

. . . and in addition to the mentioned up-front and on-going costs, there's the costs on the back end:









Flatulus


Flatulus is the world's best fart sound effect collection, with 200 authentic farts in a wide range of styles, and can be used in any app that supports wavs. In addition to a killer collection of unique sound-designed ambient synth pads & cinematic FX, the GUI offers an adaptable LFO system...




soundiron.com





Paj
8^)


----------



## Studio E (Sep 25, 2022)

I always get triggered by anyone making statements about how something should cost less. For one, in a free-market society, the brutal truth is that costs can reflect whatever the developer feels they can get away with charging. That's their right. It's their creation, and whatever someone might surmise about the cost and PITA of the development, it doesn't matter. If I record 12 seconds of flatulence through an SM-57 onto 1/4" tape, and someone will buy the 8-bit samples for $200, I have every right to charge it, and I don't even have to care if anyone else wants to buy it. I can just stick it out there. 

Fortunately, probably all developers are much more gracious than myself, and have surely labored over the thought of price, to a grueling degree. Let me be one of the first of many old-timers to mention that I paid $1,100 for EWQLSO, and the Platinum version was 3K. Everything else was more or less in line with that, and I was damn excited to save my pennies for it. I do understand that not everyone is on equal ground in terms of how much money they have to spend on music equipment and software, and I am the type of person that wants to see everyone be happy and have what they want, but again, that's not the world we live in. 

It just shocks me that, especially in the case of a software instrument or sample library, like any piece of intellectual property, that someone can feel entitled to something that didn't even exist yesterday, or last week, or last year. Someone busted their ass to create that thing, and like any piece of art, because it really is art, they can sell it for whatever they want, and it's either worth it to the end-user, or not.

I've just watched a really nasty shift in entitlement over the decades, especially in regard to this stuff, and it does bring out my claws a bit. I'm not coming down on you (much), but I can't help but to feel that you aren't coming from a place of much understanding of empathy for the folks who create these amazing damn tools we get to work with.


----------



## AudioLoco (Sep 25, 2022)

Money invested, insane, insane amount of work, sell each library for 29$... sure...

No like price, no think it's worth, no buy


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Erm… yes they do. I’m an economist and I’m pretty sure that’s how that works. But hey, it seems you’re not looking for an actual discourse. You just wanted to make a point. Noted.


So when you buy a song for $.99 or $1.29 from a digital music store, do you think the artist/label is factoring into that how much it cost to hire a studio engineer to run the session, hire a music producer to produce the song, hire a mastering engineer to master the song and the long list of man hours it usually take to make a record? Do you think those cost make it into your .99 music purchase?


----------



## proxima (Sep 25, 2022)

You seem to be switching between arguments of "prices shouldn't depend on the cost of X" and "companies would do better to lower their prices". 

Mike Greene here has posted about some of the financial considerations of making a sample library (and choosing sales, and advertising), I suggest you seek them out. 

My impressions are twofold:

1.) Sample libraries _have_ gotten both much better and much cheaper. You can use libraries that were top-of-the-line or are still top of the line for a fraction of what they debuted for (e.g. East West's subscription or its sale prices on Hollywood Orchestra). The newest, shiniest libraries still command a premium price, but that $500 is not the $1000+ of 15 years ago. The "new major library price" has come down in both nominal and especially real terms (that is, adjusting for inflation).

2.) There's a fair bit of competition, with lots of companies trying lots of pricing strategies (low, premium, subscription, lucrative sales). This is competition doing its thing, and we're getting the kind of experimentation needed for lots of options as consumers. _You _may not like Black Friday sales and whatnot, but lots of other people clearly do (I feel that way about pumpkin spice, but I digress...). 

You noted yourself how there are products that fit your style better (the Originals line, which doesn't go on sale). So vote with your dollars and choose those products. It's tempting to say we're in a golden age of sample libraries for their cost and choice, except that every decade seems better than the last. The fact that a hobbyist can spend $1k on a computer and $1k on software to write music with beautiful libraries used by pros is pretty remarkable.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> So when you buy a song for $.99 or $1.29 from a digital music store, do you think the artist/label is factoring into that how much it cost to hire a studio engineer to run the session, hire a music producer to produce the song, hire a mastering engineer to master the song and the long list of man hours it usually take to make a record? Do you think those cost make it into your .99 music purchase?


Your comparison doesn’t make much sense. But no I do not think that at all. A record label does make a calculation to verify whether they can earn a profit with their entire roster of artists, including different types of revenue. 

ANY business needs to make more revenue than the sum of their costs or they’ll go bust. A company that decides to sell samples of let’s say orchestral sounds, simply makes a calculation of costs, needs to find enough funding to finance those costs and the way they do that is either pony up their own capital OR go to outside investors with an actual projection, based on market research, of the NUMBER of items they expect to sell over time. Then it simply becomes a matter of simple calculus to arrive at a selling price at a price point that makes sense. I’m not going into price elasticity here, to not make this discussion too academically challenging.

But one can’t simply argue that a price in any market should be a given, because another way more saturated market full of competition selling entirely different products or services works differently.

And in any discussion it is not very polite nor useful to make up an example that is just plain wrong and then putting that in someone else’s mouth.


----------



## Henu (Sep 25, 2022)

Overpriced? What year is this, 2008?


----------



## DSmolken (Sep 25, 2022)

I certainly hope mine are.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 25, 2022)

DSmolken said:


> I certainly hope mine are.


No. Yours aren’t. They’re too cheap as a matter of fact 😂


----------



## AudioLoco (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> So when you buy a song for $.99 or $1.29 from a digital music store, do you think the artist/label is factoring into that how much it cost to hire a studio engineer to run the session, hire a music producer to produce the song, hire a mastering engineer to master the song and the long list of man hours it usually take to make a record? Do you think those cost make it into your .99 music purchase?


and that is why 0.99$ per song is sad and the music industry is dead therefore making it a must for even successful acts to have to tour incessantly so they can earn something.
Touring is great for a bit, but long exposure to it is extremely stresfull and heavy and leads to many artists having mental health issues.
More the 0.99$ per download, the problem is the 0.0000000001 per click/view as people don't buy music mostly and just streams it.
If i want to sell a fart recording for 1000$ I'm entitled to do it. (good idea for an NFT actually  )
If you wanna buy you buy if no not....











‘This should not be normalised’: Why musicians are cancelling tours to protect their mental health


High-profile acts from Justin Bieber to Arlo Parks have cancelled gigs recently, prioritising mental health over the demands of a relentless industry




www.theguardian.com


----------



## proxima (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> So when you buy a song for $.99 or $1.29 from a digital music store, do you think the artist/label is factoring into that how much it cost to hire a studio engineer to run the session, hire a music producer to produce the song, hire a mastering engineer to master the song and the long list of man hours it usually take to make a record? Do you think those cost make it into your .99 music purchase?


In standard econ theory, if you have a differentiated product (i.e. not a commodity) like a software library or music album, you sell it at a markup over marginal cost. So at first glance, it might seem like fixed costs (mastering engineer, producer) don't play a role here.

But the choice of _whether_ to make that album depends on the fixed cost: you need to expect to make enough profit to at least make up for the fixed costs. Where competition comes in is that people will keep making albums until the marginal album earns zero profit, _net of fixed costs._

Now, clearly album sales don't fit this pricing theory all that well: as a society we've agreed to price tracks pretty similarly. But that just means the price isn't really set by any individual music producer, and they still have to make that judgment of whether the expected sales of the track will make up for the fixed costs. If they won't, the track won't even exist. So yes, the artist/label is factoring that in.

But software libraries are different: pricing is all over the place, with companies trying various strategies they clearly hope will be profit maximizing. You might think many of them are doing it wrong, but they know a whole lot more about both their costs and sales than we do. And absolutely, their decision making for a library involves factoring in whether the money they'll make on total sales pays for the fixed costs. Just ask Mike Greene.


----------



## thevisi0nary (Sep 25, 2022)

Studio E said:


> I always get triggered by anyone making statements about how something should cost less. For one, in a free-market society, the brutal truth is that costs can reflect whatever the developer feels they can get away with charging. That's their right. It's their creation, and whatever someone might surmise about the cost and PITA of the development, it doesn't matter. If I record 12 seconds of flatulence through an SM-57 onto 1/4" tape, and someone will buy the 8-bit samples for $200, I have every right to charge it, and I don't even have to care if anyone else wants to buy it. I can just stick it out there.
> 
> Fortunately, probably all developers are much more gracious than myself, and have surely labored over the thought of price, to a grueling degree. Let me be one of the first of many old-timers to mention that I paid $1,100 for EWQLSO, and the Platinum version was 3K. Everything else was more or less in line with that, and I was damn excited to save my pennies for it. I do understand that not everyone is on equal ground in terms of how much money they have to spend on music equipment and software, and I am the type of person that wants to see everyone be happy and have what they want, but again, that's not the world we live in.
> 
> ...


Literally every comment in this thread agrees with you, who are you even mad at lol


----------



## SteveC (Sep 25, 2022)

I heard that a sample library that costs 1000USD only makes a cent profit per purchase. The reason for this is the immensely needed coke for the recording session and the heroin for the post-production. I've recognized many software developers on the street. Only with such an enormous commitment can the regular improvements in old sample libraries be explained!


----------



## Studio E (Sep 25, 2022)

thevisi0nary said:


> Literally every comment in this thread agrees with you, who are you even mad at lol


No one here, or really in general. Just saying, I've seen this attitude pop-up from time to time, and it seems really selfish.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 25, 2022)

Cool, so there actually are fiscal territories where the costs of coke and heroin are deductable? Bremen? Pretty close to my hometown Groningen, I may move.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Cool, so there actually are fiscal territories where the costs of coke and heroin are deductable? Bremen? Pretty close to my hometown Groningen, I may move.


Naturally! This is the only way we can protect our local dealer culture. Unfortunately, young people are taking fewer and fewer drugs and are eating healthier.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Studio E said:


> I always get triggered by anyone making statements about how something should cost less. For one, in a free-market society, the brutal truth is that costs can reflect whatever the developer feels they can get away with charging. That's their right. It's their creation, and whatever someone might surmise about the cost and PITA of the development, it doesn't matter. If I record 12 seconds of flatulence through an SM-57 onto 1/4" tape, and someone will buy the 8-bit samples for $200, I have every right to charge it, and I don't even have to care if anyone else wants to buy it. I can just stick it out there.
> 
> Fortunately, probably all developers are much more gracious than myself, and have surely labored over the thought of price, to a grueling degree. Let me be one of the first of many old-timers to mention that I paid $1,100 for EWQLSO, and the Platinum version was 3K. Everything else was more or less in line with that, and I was damn excited to save my pennies for it. I do understand that not everyone is on equal ground in terms of how much money they have to spend on music equipment and software, and I am the type of person that wants to see everyone be happy and have what they want, but again, that's not the world we live in.
> 
> ...


Entitlement has always existed in our world since the beginning. I don’t see entitlement going away any time soon, and why should it? I remember a time in America when people of color were called “entitled“ for expecting the same quality of life as other Americans. So should they have stopped being so “entitled” and accept things as they were and just live life? Everyone feels entitled to something, and a lot of times rightly so.

Prices and technology are always changing. The kind of computer or software you could purchase for $3,000 10 years ago vs what you could purchase today for $3,000 is vastly different in quality and function.

And it is absolutely your right to sell a fart sound for any price you find acceptable to you. But a lot of times markets stop growing because companies price themselves outside of the everyday customers budget. Therefore the market may seem smaller than it actually is.

I only pose a question, are sample libraries overpriced. I didn’t say “all sample libraries are overpriced and I demand them be cheaper for me”. Although I may as well have said that judging by the responses lol


----------



## ed buller (Sep 25, 2022)

I just don't understand this Logic. It baffles me, but I acknowledge this train of thought is a big component of why the music industry is in a shambles.

first off: Of Course the number of items that you are likely to sell factor into how much you spend making it!. I make records for a living ( well used to be a living ! ) we have a budget, that is based on how many records we are likely to sell at a fixed price. That's it !...so if it's a big band we might get to spend 50k on it. Small band 5K...simple maths.

Over the last twenty years, more and more people don't think they should pay to own music. I used to work in the garden for my mum to get enough to buy a single. about a pound. Couple of hours planting potatoes . An LP was about 4 quid...so lots more potatoes . At the height of my money-making as a producer CD's sold for 15 quid. So If I had a hit i'd get about 10p a CD as a producer. It really depends. Now in the US I wouldn't earn a penny until the whole thing recouped. This allowed the Labels to make a shit ton more. In the UK i'd get paid from record 1.

But the sales have plummeted . My latest production is No2 in the UK chart. But it's a long way away from making any money. The first album I did with this band recouped it's entire budget by midday the first day it went on sale. That was in 93. Things are very very different.

As to sample libraries they cost a fortune. Spitfire also pays royalties to the players. This is on top of their fee not instead of. So A decent orchestral library will be a massive outlay of money . That IS why they are priced accordingly. AND...they are for professionals. I know so many composer who buy their products !.....For a reason. They are very good. Yes they have bugs that don't get fixed...yes some of the patches aren't great but the bulk of it is. Try playing a Fairlight !!

Best

e


----------



## Studio E (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Entitlement has always existed in our world since the beginning. I don’t see entitlement going away any time soon, and why should it? I remember a time in America when people of color were called “entitled“ for expecting the same quality of life as other Americans. So should they have stopped being so “entitled” and accept things as they were and just live life? Everyone feels entitled to something, and a lot of times rightly so.
> 
> Prices and technology are always changing. The kind of computer or software you could purchase for $3,000 10 years ago vs what you could purchase today for $3,000 is vastly different in quality and function.
> 
> ...


Hey, it's all good. Btw, if you subscribe to my Patreon account, you can watch me fart into the mic for less than $20 a month, assuming you buy it a year at a time.


----------



## EvilDragon (Sep 25, 2022)

What a ridiculous statement.

So, OP, go ahead. Make your own sample library! Go shell out a 6 figure sum in order to record an orchestra at a good venue, with good engineers, and then pay people to process the dozens of thousands of samples properly and make an actually playable instrument out of if (expect about a year of work from everybody included, so account for paychecks for all of them during that time)... and then sell it all for $29. I dare you.


----------



## AudioLoco (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Entitlement has always existed in our world since the beginning. I don’t see entitlement going away any time soon, and why should it? I remember a time in America when people of color were called “entitled“ for expecting the same quality of life as other Americans. So should they have stopped being so “entitled” and accept things as they were and just live life? Everyone feels entitled to something, and a lot of times rightly so.


Now you are comparing yourself to slaves? 

Please please stop digging.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso (Sep 25, 2022)

My jaw is on the floor that he's seriously drawing a line from "it's entitled to demand cheap sample libraries" to "but what about when minorities had to fight for their rights? was THAT just entitlement too?"
That might be the most VI-Control post I've ever seen.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 25, 2022)

How overpriced something is also depends very much on the individual situation. Some like to pay 1000€ for a sausage. For me, every sausage is currently overpriced! ... maybe it'll still work if I don't fry them.


----------



## gsilbers (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Entitlement has always existed in our world since the beginning. I don’t see entitlement going away any time soon, and why should it? I remember a time in America when people of color were called “entitled“ for expecting the same quality of life as other Americans. So should they have stopped being so “entitled” and accept things as they were and just live life? Everyone feels entitled to something, and a lot of times rightly so.
> 
> Prices and technology are always changing. The kind of computer or software you could purchase for $3,000 10 years ago vs what you could purchase today for $3,000 is vastly different in quality and function.
> 
> ...



Well, they ARE a lot cheaper than 10 years ago. With all the current sales going on, you can find most libraries at a much lower prices than orginally released. Plus what audioplugin deals is doing with eternal super duper sales of 20 libraries at a time. 
Just as anything new, the is a higher upfront price to recoup expenses. And different companies do things differently.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Ok I think I’ve got it, every sample library is perfectly priced, and zero developers have room to improve the pricing of their products. 🙄


----------



## Sarah Mancuso (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Ok I think I’ve got it, every sample library is perfectly priced, and zero developers have room to improve the pricing of their products. 🙄


Have you tried improving the quality of your posts?


----------



## Sophus (Sep 25, 2022)

Some sample libraries and plugins or knowledge course developers have basically "fake" high prices like 8dio or iZotope or Magix or Udemy. They sell their products extremely often for a highly reduced price, some even non-stop. So the real price is the reduced price and the "fake" high price only exists to tell the customer they can save 95%.


----------



## Gerbil (Sep 25, 2022)

All this talk of potatoes and sausages is making me very hungry.


----------



## José Herring (Sep 25, 2022)

Comparing prices today to what even one synth cost in the 90's, no things aren't too expensive. As a matter of fact I don't even know how any developer of musical instruments can even survive in this marketplace. Maybe the Europeans have government arts subsidies or something because the amount of American companies has dwindled down to few. 
They need to price their products so that they can make money and stay alive, if they don't then we'll all be in the position of sampling our own orchestras.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 25, 2022)

There are fixed costs and variable/marginal costs. Both have to be covered if a company is to be profitable. The fixed cost of most sample libraries is quite high. The marginal cost quite low, often almost negligible, especially if you don’t count license fees, royalty payments to musicians and so forth. One standard economic rule is that the limit over time of price is equal to marginal cost. But companies will only continue producing libraries so long as it is profitable to do so, so the price cannot fall immediately to anything close to marginal cost, which therefore works more like a pricing floor. But it does suggest a reason we see steep discounting with digital products. Every sale yields a marginal profit of more or less the selling price since the cost of producing another copy of the library is negligible. Physical goods have much higher marginal costs, so the floor is much higher. The marginal cost of a CD is much higher than the marginal cost of the same album downloaded digitally.

Demand for libraries is likely quite elastic, especially now that hobbyists are the largest part of the market, so a reduction in price yields a significant increase in sales. Finding the income maximizing price point is tricky because companies don’t have the information in prospect to calculate it. Discounts increase volume and so also revenues (to the extent that demand is elastic) but also yield data for the company about price elasticity that can help them better price other products (they aim at income maximizing over time).

I would also say that there are basic price points that the various companies use ($29, $49, $99, $199, $249, $299, $399, etc.). They do not generally use standard commodity pricing like CDs or DVDs, but follow something more of the order of branded merchandise such as consumer goods (e.g., toasters, clothing). Why does this t-shirt cost $5 and that one $60? It’s the same sort of problem.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Well, they ARE a lot cheaper than 10 years ago. With all the current sales going on, you can find most libraries at a much lower prices than orginally released. Plus what audioplugin deals is doing with eternal super duper sales of 20 libraries at a time.
> Just as anything new, the is a higher upfront price to recoup expenses. And different companies do things differently.


Actually some libraries are more expensive than they were 10 years ago, and some have not changed in price at all. So yeah while some libraries and developers have adopted a modern pricing approach, some are still stuck in the early 2000s


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

No sample library is ever overpriced, especially VOXOS!


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> What a ridiculous statement.
> 
> So, OP, go ahead. Make your own sample library! Go shell out a 6 figure sum in order to record an orchestra at a good venue, with good engineers, and then pay people to process the dozens of thousands of samples properly and make an actually playable instrument out of if (expect about a year of work from everybody included, so account for paychecks for all of them during that time)... and then sell it all for $29. I dare you.


What statement? I merely posed a question. In my opinion some are, however that is just my opinion.

I guess giving access to quality libraries in a more affordable way so that more people can get into music production and expand the industry, yeah that’s a ridiculous thing to want to see.

And Soundpaint shouldn’t even exist as a company if what you’re saying is true. Most of the libraries are $30 and none exceed $50. So assuming Troels didn’t build the company to fail, he’s either on to a much better pricing strategy, or Soundpaint won’t last long.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I didn’t say “all sample libraries are overpriced and I demand them be cheaper for me”. Although I may as well have said that judging by the responses lol



Eh, you kind of did say exactly that lol!



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I’m tired of the Black Friday sales, the gazzilion flash sales from companies, for the sake of humanity and mental health, let all plugins and sample libraries range from $29-$99 (and perhaps $149 for the very BEST libraries and plugins available), and let’s do away with overpriced software that has plagued musicians for decades.



Ok but I'm done piling on, I tend to be wary of joining in when everyone's pointing the finger at someone, so I'll put my smart-ass-ness on a five minute hold despite the enormous effort that takes for me lol. There's an element of this conversation that I actually do think is important.

There's a market out there for cheaper and free libraries that we undervalue in these forums because people here tend to want more power. Remember when Spitfire announced their most anticipated library and it was a $30 Originals choir? That moment should have given everyone here pause about our actual role in the market. Every so often we get a peek behind the curtain and realize that we're a tiny fringe group pretending to be all-important. I don't necessarily agree with the OP but in terms of the markets, those of us willing to pay that much for libraries do seem to make up a very small slice.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 25, 2022)

I think for what developers get out of them they are often *under*priced and for what I personally am getting out of them they are often *over*priced. So as a compromise we occasionally meet in the middle: black friday.


----------



## Noeticus (Sep 25, 2022)

"Are sample libraries overpriced?"​
No.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> What statement? I merely posed a question. In my opinion some are, however that is just my opinion.
> 
> I guess giving access to quality libraries in a more affordable way so that more people can get into music production and expand the industry, yeah that’s a ridiculous thing to want to see.
> 
> And Soundpaint shouldn’t even exist as a company if what you’re saying is true. Most of the libraries are $30 and none exceed $50. So assuming Troels didn’t build the company to fail, he’s either on to a much better pricing strategy, or Soundpaint won’t last long.


You gotta remember, 8Dio was a mammoth of a developer 10 years ago. They charged high dollar prices for their libraries back then and probably made a small fortune.

I could be completely wrong, but my guess is that Troels already made his money during that time period, which is why they can offer such deep discounts now.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Actually some libraries are more expensive than they were 10 years ago, and some have not changed in price at all. So yeah while some libraries and developers have adopted a modern pricing approach, some are still stuck in the early 2000s


This is a bit of a distortion though--new libraries get released at lower price points than they used to, and that's just the truth. Orchestral Tools hasn't reduced their prices much over the years and that's why they're considered an expensive dev. Hollywood Strings, LASS, VSL, these would all set you back over a thousand dollars. Berlin Strings is still 900. Appassionata which is very recent left out a few articulations to bring the price point under 200. And in a way, this plays to your actual point that the market has a harder time bearing ultra expensive libraries


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Actually some libraries are more expensive than they were 10 years ago


Which ones??


----------



## Roger Newton (Sep 25, 2022)

The way I see musical equipment is from a different perspective. I started buying my own musical equipment in the late 1960s. Hammond organs, then onto Moogs and so on. The Moog in 1971 was not that far off a low grade terraced house. The Hammond B3 was a lot more than a low grade terraced house. 
Onto now and sample libraries are there to do a job. I say it that way because if you buy them to support your musical hobby only, then it's like anything hobbies; hobbies generally cost a fortune. In terms of do they cost too much then that's subjective. But if I told you that this Octobers royalties payment will completely cover every sample library I ever bought, easily, then you could argue they could be fairly good value. Not that I set out originally to do that, but that's just how it worked out. And this will apply to tons of writers every royalty payment. So sample libraries being say, average $100 cheaper than they are now is a moot point but if that's not agreeable then nothing anyone can say will change that.


----------



## NekujaK (Sep 25, 2022)

Like with any products/goods, some are overpriced, some underpriced, and most are priced just right. To make a blanket statement that all libraries are overpriced, or not overpriced, is like using a sledgehammer to turn on a microwave oven.

There are libraries out there that I've avoided buying because I think they're priced a little too steep for what they offer. Apparently other folks feel the same, because I've seen several libraries reduce their prices after a time.

By the same token, I feel I've gotten some incredible steals with libraries that are ridiculously inexpensive for the level of quality and/or volume of content they provide.

Pricing products is a combination of needing to cover development costs versus gauging what the market will bear. It's not always easy or possible to please everyone.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Eh, you kind of did say exactly that lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I was being a bit hyperbolic if that wasn’t clear lol, a lot of great libraries are already priced within the $29-$149 price range. And a lot of those libraries are better than the more expensive counterparts. Not always, but sometimes they are.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all to take inventory of the current pricing market and see if it’s possible to improve for both the customer and the developer. I think companies like Spitfire and Soundpaint are seeing “hey, these lower priced library’s are selling really well and maybe we don’t need to inflate the price so high to see a return on investment”.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

I wonder if the amount of sales we see these days might be an indicator that the average customer isn’t seeing the same value in sample libraries that the developer is.

I mean, why offer so many sales if people are just fine with picking those libraries up at list price?

The truth is that they aren’t, and a lot of composers will never buy a lib until it’s on sale. It’s frequently been stated on these boards, “Never buy a sample library at full price”.

Clearly, there’s an imbalance somewhere, and at the end of the day, your product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of how much money and work you pump into it.

A developer can choose to price their library at whatever cost they deem fit, but if people aren’t biting, then it might be worth reconsidering some things.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Well I was being a bit hyperbolic if that wasn’t clear lol, a lot of great libraries are already priced within the $29-$149 price range. And a lot of those libraries are better than the more expensive counterparts. Not always, but sometimes they are.
> 
> I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all to take inventory of the current pricing market and see if it’s possible to improve for both the customer and the developer. I think companies like Spitfire and Soundpaint are seeing “hey, these lower priced library’s are selling really well and maybe we don’t need to inflate the price so high to see a return on investment”.


That's the stuff I agree with you on. But on the other hand, I'm not aware of a single library you can get for 149 that competes with Berlin Strings, for instance. I disagree that sample libraries are too expensive for what they offer, or for what they cost to make. I do think they're too expensive for the market, especially right now. It's a level of nuance i think we need to get to before anything starts making sense


----------



## d.healey (Sep 25, 2022)

SteveC said:


> How overpriced something is also depends very much on the individual situation. Some like to pay 1000€ for a sausage. For me, every sausage is currently overpriced! ... maybe it'll still work if I don't fry them.


I have the plugin for you


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not aware of a single library you can get for 149 that competes with Berlin Strings


N


----------



## kgdrum (Sep 25, 2022)

Libraries take time and money to create.

Great libraries generally take more time and money to create.

List prices,sales prices and promotions are ways to sell/market a product,the reality it’s all conceptual marketing.

Any library is worthless if it doesn’t sell.


----------



## jules (Sep 25, 2022)

Studio E said:


> Hey, it's all good. Btw, if you subscribe to my Patreon account, you can watch me fart into the mic for less than $20 a month, assuming you buy it a year at a time.


Bargain !


----------



## Noeticus (Sep 25, 2022)

On the planet Algon, a simple string sample library (with no second violins) costs as much as the entire gross national product of the United States of America from 1770 to the year 2022.





__





Monty Python: Prices on the Planet Algon






montycasinos.com


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> That's the stuff I agree with you on. But on the other hand, I'm not aware of a single library you can get for 149 that competes with Berlin Strings, for instance. I disagree that sample libraries are too expensive for what they offer, or for what they cost to make. I do think they're too expensive for the market, especially right now. It's a level of nuance i think we need to get to before anything starts making sense


I agree with that. Although I don't have much experience with Berlin Strings to recommend something that could replace it or do what it does in that price range, I wonder would you think less of Berlin Strings if it cost only $99? Would it feel somehow cheap to you at that price? 

I think a lot of the triggered reactions to the post are because a lot of you (me included) have spent obscene amounts of money on libraries, therefore we feel the need to protect our identity and ego by dismissing the question entirely. Cause if sample libraries become cheaper and we paid the high price before the price was reduced, we would feel cheated in a way.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Actually some libraries are more expensive than they were 10 years ago, and some have not changed in price at all. So yeah while some libraries and developers have adopted a modern pricing approach, some are still stuck in the early 2000s


Which ones? You can't just say something and not back it up. I mean Inflation alone kills the cost of a library even if they don't change the pricing. There are very few if any devs that I know who even raise the prices of libraries. Off the top of my head, the only singular example of this I can remember is Cinesamples raising prices during their shift to a permanent sale strategy, however, even that is not a real price raise. 

I literally can't think of a single dev who has a library that is more expensive now than it was 10 years ago.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Getsumen said:


> Which ones? You can't just say something and not back it up. I mean Inflation alone kills the cost of a library even if they don't change the pricing. There are very few if any devs that I know who even raise the prices of libraries. Off the top of my head, the only singular example of this I can remember is Cinesamples raising prices during their shift to a permanent sale strategy, however, even that is not a real price raise.
> 
> I literally can't think of a single dev who has a library that is more expensive now than it was 10 years ago.


Project SAM libraries increased in price quite a bit from how I remember discovering them long ago, Cinesamples, and I think Orchestral Tools increased in price as well. A few other developers I know I'm missing, but can't think of atm.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I wonder would you think less of Berlin Strings if it cost only $99? Would it feel somehow cheap to you at that price?


To me, it would feel grossly underpriced. Kind of like buying a new Ferrari for $20k…isn’t going to happen, and justifiably so.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Project SAM libraries increased in price quite a bit from how I remember discovering them long ago, Cinesamples, and I think Orchestral Tools increased in price as well. A few other developers I know I'm missing, but can't think of atm.


I disagree.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Project SAM libraries increased in price quite a bit from how I remember discovering them long ago, Cinesamples, and I think Orchestral Tools increased in price as well. A few other developers I know I'm missing, but can't think of atm.


I think you mean the opposite. Do you want to guess the original cost of Symphobia vs what it is now?




Here it is on August 31 2008.

Here it is today:





Plug in a quick inflation calculator from 2008 to 2022.... 999 euros in 2008 is now 1248! (Euros or dollars because remarkably they're almost the same now)


1248 certainly seems much more expensive than 329 wouldn't you say?

OT has never increased the price of any of its products as far as I know. OT in fact has also only gotten cheaper. They used almost never to do sales and bundles. Now they have permanent bundles, a 40% edu discount, and frequent sales.

I have no idea why you got this idea that devs are raising library costs. Everything is only getting cheaper as time goes on


----------



## EvilDragon (Sep 25, 2022)

Yep, I remember when Symphobia was 1k. And it sold quite well and you heard it _literally everywhere._


----------



## ryans (Sep 25, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Make your own sample library!


I tried this. I don't recommend it.


----------



## Saxer (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Let all plugins and sample libraries range from $29-$99 (and perhaps $149 for the very BEST libraries and plugins available), and let’s do away with overpriced software that has plagued musicians for decades.


Start creating great libraries and sell them cheap. If they are good I'll buy them.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

Getsumen said:


> I think you mean the opposite. Do you want to guess the original cost of Symphobia vs what it is now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember it costing more than 1K.

Sound on Sound even has the price listed of Symphobia 2 for $1299.





ProjectSAM Symphobia 2


Symphobia's sequel probes deeper into the psyche of the sampled orchestra.




www.soundonsound.com





I also remember thinking I would never be able to afford it.

Funny how things change.


----------



## tc9000 (Sep 25, 2022)

Look, if libraries were overpriced, investment firms would be circling, wouldn't they? Oh wait


----------



## lettucehat (Sep 25, 2022)

Did Symphobia get a bit cheaper than its current price though, before the big 2.0 update?


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Getsumen said:


> I think you mean the opposite. Do you want to guess the original cost of Symphobia vs what it is now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could very well be wrong, but I do remember discovering Symphobia around 2010-2011 when I first really started using it, only costing about $250. As I was in no position to spend anywhere near $1K on a library I can promise you I did not purchase it for that price lol. 

I could swear I remember ProjectSAM charging more around 2010-2011 when I first discovered them, but such is the case of memory, subject to being wrong!


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 25, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> I remember it costing more than 1K.
> 
> Sound on Sound even has the price listed of Symphobia 2 for $1299.
> 
> ...







Boy am I glad to be young and discovering sample libraries when they got cheaper


----------



## EvilDragon (Sep 25, 2022)

Symphobia dropping in price is a _relatively_ recent thing. No way it was $250 in 2011.


----------



## Digivolt (Sep 25, 2022)

Stiletto TB3MC TI-BONE™ III Milled/Curve Titanium Hammer | eBay


The TI-BONE™ III features a 180° side nail puller that allows you to pull 6D-16D nails with ease and includes a magnetic nail starter. • Replaceable Milled or Smooth Steel Face. • 15oz Titanium Head with Steel Face Hits Like a 28oz Steel Head.



www.ebay.co.uk





Good tools cost money, probably more work goes into recording a sample library than forging a hammer as well so I guess they're good value


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Symphobia dropping in price is a _relatively_ recent thing. No way it was $250 in 2011.


Maybe not "legitimately" now that I think back. It was very common to walk into a guitar center and have a guy with burned disk of literally anything you wanted for a cheap price. Perhaps young teenage me thought he was getting a legitimate "steal" but in fact it was some guy with bootleg copies lol. 

I still think ProjectSAM increased in price before decreasing though, however I wouldn't bet my house on it


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

The funniest thing in this thread to me though, literally none of you probably buy libraries at the full price, and I see it preached here as gospel "wait for the sales". But yet you still say sample libraries are not overpriced? Makes perfect sense....


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 25, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> I wonder if the amount of sales we see these days might be an indicator that the average customer isn’t seeing the same value in sample libraries that the developer is.
> 
> I mean, why offer so many sales if people are just fine with picking those libraries up at list price?
> 
> ...


It’s been noted on the forum many times that most libraries only sell when they are on sale. The price point is less important than that it is on sale. Some then take to a more or less perpetual sale strategy, either through rolling sales or by stating at 50% off for months or even years. I’m not sure how effective the latter is as one function of putting on a sale is to impose a deadline that forces potential customers to choose to buy or not to buy at the special sale price. If the sale price is effectively the new price it benefits only from the elasticity of price without forcing the customer to a decision point with a deadline. (The 8dio glitch pricing whether intentional or inadvertent plays on this decision point with a dollop of too good to be true FOMO,)


----------



## pistacchio (Sep 25, 2022)

d.healey said:


> The manufacturer has a cost that must be covered by the total sales. Doesn't matter if it's a movie, a car, or a sample library.


I think that the argument is that in other products the price is fixed. A movie costs a cinema fee of 10$. Maybe it's a in indie movie shot in a kitchen with three actors or maybe it's Avatar 2. An album is 20$. Maybe it's the recording of a guy with its guitar or it's the recording of a 200 piece orchestra. The cost of production is not on the buyer.
VSTs are all about turning the costs on the customer. Recording of 4 players? A price. 20 players? More expensive. 3 articulations? A price. 5 articulations? More expensive.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

pistacchio said:


> I think that the argument is that in other products the price is fixed. A movie costs a cinema fee of 10$. Maybe it's a in indie movie shot in a kitchen with three actors or maybe it's Avatar 2. An album is 20$. Maybe it's the recording of a guy with its guitar or it's the recording of a 200 piece orchestra. The cost of production is not in the buyer.
> VSTs are all about turning the costs on the customer. Recording of 4 players? A price. 20 players? More expensive. 3 articulations? A price. 5 articulations? More expensive.


Exactly this ^


----------



## d.healey (Sep 25, 2022)

A movie recoups not just on the ticket sales, also DVDs and merchandise, product placement, TV syndication, sequels, spin-offs, etc. Ticket price is just one fixed element, but there are other variable elements, the audience size for example.

With software sales we don't have to work around a fixed price, so we get an extra variable to play with.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 25, 2022)

Many of them are, yes.

And people with a lot of money to throw around can say whatever they want, but were this not the case, they'd not be granting you access to their entire catalogue for $30 a month (and even that right now is 50% off lmao), 8Dio would not discount like $500 libraries to $40 (again lmao), and Best Service would not literally GIVE AWAY new libraries on a 2-for-1 deal at Easter. If it was "worth" that much, then they would not do this. Arguments to the contrary are just self-deceit, frankly.

Obviously, it does depend on the library, as some of them could have substantial production costs, especially when they're new. Some of them, like the Era libraries, aside from being exceptional-quality fill a niche genre and instrumentation that genuinely does only appeal to a specific demographic. Some are definitely worth a bit more than others.

But some libraries that have been around for 20 years are still going for an asking price, to own it, of over $500 USD and this is coming from the biggest names in the industry who have produced many, many more successful libraries since.

Also, by the way, the fact that these subscription models exist and have endured now for years, is proof that OP's comparison to movie tickets is valid and it discredits the claim that "not many do what we do!" which is just the general composer "I'm special and do the most important thing in the world" mentality that frustrates just about everyone who has to work with composers.

YouTube, Soundcloud, Bandcamp, Facebook, etc. There are MILLIONS of composers, songwriters, bands, music teachers, you name it — all using this kind of software (piracy if they can't afford it).

The big players could absolutely sell these libraries at a much-lower cost than they do (already proven by the ridiculous sales that go on) and turn profit. The $2-400 range is, for most, probably doable for most of these millions of potential customers, and would bring in revenue in the 10s of thousands minimum, every year, on just a few hundred sales, but again, the consumer base is much larger than "hundreds" of people.

Of course, this would not be doable for the little guy. It's sort of like how Wal-Mart could out price local businesses, but then — if you're the little guy, you're probably not making the 14th String library to come out this year, anyway.

Also, because it has already been established in most people's minds (VI-C is not "most people") that there will inevitably be huge sales on these things; if the libraries were now to be dropped to a more affordable price, let's say an average of $250 for argument's sake, you may struggle to sell it now because everyone is going to wait for that sale, assuming you're gouging them as is tradition.


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 25, 2022)

Overpriced? they're cheaper than ever. A search on this forum will show that the price of sample libraries has dropped DRAMATICALLY over the past decade. IIRC Symphobia was around $1500 when it 1st released, LASS was initially around 2k (again, IIRC)... 

They've never been more competitively priced, and scripting technology has improved dramatically over the past decade.


----------



## Voider (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I think a lot of the triggered reactions to the post are because a lot of you (me included) have spent obscene amounts of money on libraries, therefore we feel the need to protect our identity and ego by dismissing the question entirely. Cause if sample libraries become cheaper and we paid the high price before the price was reduced, we would feel cheated in a way.


I think it's rather because the world of musicianship is already one of the industries with the roughest conditions of all (_scary, insecure career path, working a whole lifetime as freelancer which comes with way more expensive insurances and many other problems, no unions protecting musicans[...]_) and already suffers enough from the "_make your art less expensive! It's just entertainment stuff, it's not really necessary to survive!!_" chants.

Ever seen an mechanical engineer after his degree being asked to work for free, getting paid in exposure, so he could use that when he applies for a _real job with payment _afterwards?

Musicans are trying to get the (monetary) appreciation up for their craft, societies all around the globe have at least somewhat realized during the lockdown days, how important the whole entertainment sector is for the mental health of everyone. How it's really not just a trivial _nice to have _to be able to recharge from a hard working day or rough times with some nice movies, TV shows or games which help us to let go from the serious world out there for a while. And least but not last music itself of course too.

Devaluing the work of orchestral players who are trying to make a living by providing samples for library manufacturers also means devaluing what a composers work is worth. Because you can't argue that sample libraries are too expensive and musicans who record those earn too much, but composer wages should remain the same. And not only composers, it drags the whole industry down including everyone who's involved - mixing and recording engineers, instrument players, software developers working in the music industry, composers, sound designers and many more.

So I assume people are rather triggered by that, especially if there's no real life example with real calculations provided in your thread, but just the claim that these companies are obligated to make everything more affordable to everyone because it would make life easier for _you_. That's then what some people in this thread here referred to as selfish.

In the end a 1000€ library by OT is a high-end tool aimed primarily at professionals who earn money with it, and professional high-end gear should cost, excellence should be expensive. Because people who became so excellent at their craft made many sacrifices to get there and that should be rewarded - not only for the individual, but also because it's important for a healthy economy that people know that hard work and huge efforts pay off. That creates drive within the economic participants, which all musicans who wish to make money from their craft are part of, and is inevitable for a society that strives for growth.


----------



## tc9000 (Sep 25, 2022)

d.healey said:


> A movie recoups not just on the ticket sales, also DVDs and merchandise, product placement, TV syndication, sequels, spin-offs, etc. Ticket price is just one fixed element, but there are other variable elements, the audience size for example.
> 
> With software sales we don't have to work around a fixed price, so we get an extra variable to play with.



dont forget the tango iceblast - cost = one kidney. seriously, though - it is kinda impressive how monetized the movie biz is. reaper should be doing merch haha. (i bet there is reaper merch)


----------



## tc9000 (Sep 25, 2022)

a part of me suspects this page was autogenerated when i typed the search term into google. it does take a long time to load...









REAPERmerch


Visit the post for more.




pipelineaudio.net


----------



## ed buller (Sep 25, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Yep, I remember when Symphobia was 1k. And it sold quite well and you heard it _literally everywhere._


I bought it for that. Bitched about it to on this very forum and got a shit tonne of grief !..Now it's fairly priced. 

best

e


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 25, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I disagree that sample libraries are too expensive for what they offer, or for what they cost to make. I do think they're too expensive for the market, especially right now. It's a level of nuance i think we need to get to before anything starts making sense


I’m not sure they are too expensive for the market. The market is highly elastic to be sure. But they are only to expensive if they are unprofitable at any price point. That is unclear. 

Another possibility is that the market is bimodal, with one part (let’s call them professionals) being fairly inelastic, the other (hobbyists) being very elastic. If you can’t find a profitable price point that can profitably tap the hobbyist market then you would shift to the professional market and price (high) accordingly. This kind of two-tiered pricing was common a decade ago, though the hobbyist market was just starting to be identified and targeted. It’s still around in vestigial form, but developers discovered they found often do better selling straight to the market as a whole. The hobbyists benefited by getting earlier access, the professionals by getting much cheaper libraries, snd the companies by increased revenues. So win-win-win. Downside was maybe the reduced scale of the libraries on offer, few of which were as comprehensive as those offered prior.

That structure means that if the hobbyist market is weakening significantly we might in fact see price increases, especially for the libraries aimed directly at professionals, which are already expensive. And that they will take longer to go into the regular sales cycle.


----------



## pistacchio (Sep 25, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I’m not sure they are too expensive for the market. The market is highly elastic to be sure. But they are only to expensive if they are unprofitable at any price point. That is unclear.
> 
> Another possibility is that the market is bimodal, with one part (let’s call them professionals) being fairly inelastic, the other (hobbyists) being very elastic. If you can’t find a profitable price point that can profitably tap the hobbyist market then you would shift to the professional market and price (high) accordingly. This kind of two-tiered pricing was common a decade ago, though the hobbyist market was just starting to be identified and targeted. It’s still around in vestigial form, but developers discovered they found often do better selling straight to the market as a whole. The hobbyists benefited by getting earlier access, the professionals by getting much cheaper libraries, snd the companies by increased revenues. So win-win-win. Downside was maybe the reduced scale of the libraries on offer, few of which were as comprehensive as those offered prior.
> 
> That structure means that if the hobbyist market is weakening significantly we might in fact see price increases, especially for the libraries aimed directly at professionals, which are already expensive. And that they will take longer to go into the regular sales cycle.


I think the distinction between hobbyists and professionals is essential. A 700$ library is maybe the right price for someone making actual money out of it, but it's a lot of money for hobbits who would end up using it now and then for their own pleasure.

The "problem" is that the price range is not SO extreme. If I'm a hobbyist video-maker with a 1000$ camera, I know I _cannot _afford a 100.000$ cinema camera and make an upgrade. But if I have a 90$ string library, a top, professional string library that is 500$ is expensive, but no so extremely expensive that I cannot save for it.


----------



## robgb (Sep 25, 2022)

Yes. Which is why they're constantly on sale.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 25, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Comparing prices today to what even one synth cost in the 90's, no things aren't too expensive. As a matter of fact I don't even know how any developer of musical instruments can even survive in this marketplace. Maybe the Europeans have government arts subsidies or something because the amount of American companies has dwindled down to few.
> They need to price their products so that they can make money and stay alive, if they don't then we'll all be in the position of sampling our own orchestras.


It’s pretty rough now, I’ll tell you that, it’s survival mode for a lot of smaller devs. On the upside, if I’ve learned anything since starting my own business, it is that there’s no shortage of people who will tell me all about how I SHOULD be running my business, so at least I’m not short on advice…


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 25, 2022)

I feel like people are shifting the goalposts now. A library having a high list price, but then going on sale does not make them overpriced?

The majority never buy them for the "asking" price. This is literally just how every business works. The asking price is almost always never the best price. Human psychology makes us want "deals". Companies profit by making you think you get a deal, even if you don't.

Black Friday, Cyber Monday, Cashback rewards, etc. 

None of that means it's overpriced. No one is buying stuff off sale. Is it an annoying strategy? Sure! Does it make things cost more? No?


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 25, 2022)

Sample libraries are not overpriced. They just have a built in impatience tax.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Voider said:


> I think it's rather because the world of musicianship is already one of the industries with the roughest conditions of all (_scary, insecure career path, working a whole lifetime as freelancer which comes with way more expensive insurances and many other problems, no unions protecting musicans[...]_) and already suffers enough from the "_make your art less expensive! It's just entertainment stuff, it's not really necessary to survive!!_" chants.
> 
> Ever seen an engineer after his degree being asked to work for free, getting paid in exposure, so that he could use that when he then applies for a _real job with payment _afterwards?
> 
> ...


Not only have I seen an engineer be asked to do that, I've been that engineer/producer in that position several times when I was starting out.

Lowering library prices doesn't mean the orchestral composers get paid less, it just means we don't stick the customer with the cost of having to pay the orchestral performers, or having to pay for the studio time required to rent out the studio etc. It doesn't mean they get paid less royalties as that is a fixed rate regardless of how much the library cost I believe?

And I never claimed that companies are obligated to lower prices so it would make my life easier, that is quite a dishonest take on what I was saying. Literally everyone in this thread and beyond who enjoys music production would benefit from lower cost, higher quality sample libraries. From the top of the professionals to the beginner hobbyist.

And professional high end gear should definitely cost, but are we going to put digital software and sample libraries in the category of high cost gear now? Should sample libraries cost 2-4x more than the DAW you need to actually compose your music?

The gift of computer technology was supposed to be a way to make sounds more accessible and available to those who couldn't afford to, or want to go hire a full orchestra or buy 100 analog synths.


----------



## timbit2006 (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> So when you buy a song for $.99 or $1.29 from a digital music store, do you think the artist/label is factoring into that how much it cost to hire a studio engineer to run the session, hire a music producer to produce the song, hire a mastering engineer to master the song and the long list of man hours it usually take to make a record? Do you think those cost make it into your .99 music purchase?


Can you take that .99$ song and use it to create your own music that you can also sell for .99$ a piece? Nope.
This thread is silly and I hate to say it but you are speaking entirely from a standpoint based solely on ignorance for the actual topic and scenario.


----------



## Voider (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Not only have I seen an engineer be asked to do that, I've been that engineer/producer in that position several times when I was starting out.


I meant engineers for machines, jobs outside of the music industry  Where employers wouldn't even dare to ask people to work for free in exchange for "exposure".


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 25, 2022)

I guess there is no right answer to this question. Some of them ARE overpriced, that's why you can see stuff like "399 - only $25, HURRY UP" but most of them are very fairly priced, especially when you compare to what is was a decade ago. 

It is a different market but I remember paying 500€ for Waves API collection (4 plugins!) in 2008. Still hurts.


----------



## timbit2006 (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Not only have I seen an engineer be asked to do that, I've been that engineer/producer in that position several times when I was starting out.
> 
> Lowering library prices doesn't mean the orchestral composers get paid less, it just means we don't stick the customer with the cost of having to pay the orchestral performers, or having to pay for the studio time required to rent out the studio etc. It doesn't mean they get paid less royalties as that is a fixed rate regardless of how much the library cost I believe?
> 
> ...


So in your ideal scenario the people who put the hard work into recording, programming, learning how to do all that, arranging timeslots, booking venues for the actual recording.... They are supposed to get nothing to help boost the creativity of some random person they don't even know without getting any financial compensation whatsoever? Sorry sir but that's ridiculous.


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 25, 2022)

Man, as much as I sympathize with your points, going to VI-Control with such hot take seems similar to going straight into some exclusive country club and complaining that golf clubs should cost 10 bucks, because you can't afford them :D

You are heading straight into territory of super-whales fueled by endless GAS.

Of course, I'm (kinda) being sarcastic here, but this place is full of professional composers, making good money and using this tools for their work. For them, throwing 700$ is often not really an issue, especially if it's treated as investment. For hobbyist, from much poorer parts of the world, where you have to work 2-3 months to even make 700$, that's another story, but we also don't really need as many tools.

As I am working in marketing for digital products, I can tell you for sure, that most software is terribly overpriced, and the more niche and pointed toward very narrow market software, the more it is overpriced. I don't do audio, but I've seen my share of 50$ worth of apps sold for 899$. Part of my work in marketing is to convince people why they should't call it "overpriced" and it works, many of the arguments that every marketing team coins, were already posted in this thread. but it's normal, marketing almost always works, because we want to believe. We want to have "premium - top of the line, expensive shit" because that makes us feel good.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> Can you take that .99$ song and use it to create your own music that you can also sell for .99$ a piece? Nope.
> This thread is silly and I hate to say it but you are speaking entirely from a standpoint based solely on ignorance for the actual topic and scenario.


Actually yes, people do it all the time! However the risk of getting sued is quite high which is why producers try to be clever and rearrange, slow down or transpose to a different key signature so they don't get copyright lawsuits filed against them. 



timbit2006 said:


> So in your ideal scenario the people who put the hard work into recording, programming, learning how to do all that, arranging timeslots, booking venues for the actual recording.... They are supposed to get nothing to help boost the creativity of some random person they don't even know without getting any financial compensation whatsoever? Sorry sir but that's ridiculous.


And I literally said NOTHING like what you just insinuated smh.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Should sample libraries cost 2-4x more than the DAW you need to actually compose your music?


That is a ridiculous statement. And where do you think developers get their capital to produce new libraries? How do you think they recoup that money?


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. And where do you think developers get their capital to produce new libraries? How do you think they recoup that money?


That's not even a statement, do you know the difference between a question and a statement? Not being funny, I've had several people refer to questions I ask as statements here.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 25, 2022)

The substitute product is recording opportunities with live musicians. Compared to the cost of recording, even at one of the 2nd tier continental Europe setups, sample libraries are incredibly affordable. Actually they already were in 2003 and then after the dam broke on year-round sales in 2015-2016, things have got astonishingly cheap.

I'm grateful to developers because without them I wouldn't have my work as a mockup assistant.


----------



## youngpokie (Sep 25, 2022)

Voider said:


> you can't argue that sample libraries are too expensive and musicans who record those earn too much, but composer wages should remain the same.


I'm working my way through this thread and trying to work out what I think about this topic, and this sentence caught my eye.

First, I wonder if there is a _value_ differential (and consequently, a different level of _artistic_ merit) when a violin player records a performance of a concerto along with his/her regular orchestra and when the same player is playing every sustained note at exactly _mezzo-forte_ while recording for a sample library. I daresay these are not the same, should not cost the same and should not be compared.

And second, I also wonder how a company that gets 90% of its revenue during a Black Friday or Easter sale would be pricing their product for the rest of the year. Other seasonal industries (especially alcohol and fragrances) usually run their so-called "sales" at full margin and inflate the prices for the rest of the year to make sales events appear more attractive. The problem with this approach is that the cash is not coming in regularly. Running frequent sales helps solve cash flow.

Even better, though - splitting libraries into lower priced components, which Spitfire and OT are both doing in slightly different ways, can carry an even higher profit margin and generate more volume. That's what chewing gum and cigarette companies used to do in the 1970s and 80s - sell them by a single stick and charge more per stick.

It works well because it solves the biggest problem of all - the out-of-pocket cash outlay for a full library is simply too much money for many people. I'm not sure if the OP's point had to do with that specifically - but the out-of-pocket amout of cash puts most libraries out of reach for me personally. I can't afford most of them even during sales. But I've been buying every single OT "singles" instrument, even though I know full well OT is making more money off of me that way.


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 25, 2022)

Read the whole thread. Agree with general sentiment here, which is that the open marketplace (and sampling is very healthy open market place with plenty of great competitors) will find it's pricing level by the very nature of open markets. Personally, as a hobbyist with, thankfully, plenty of disposable income for my hobbies, I don't find the pricing of sample libraries egregious, especially when on sale.

What I think is needing to change, and gradually is happening, is the ability to trial and/or resell products. Everyone has referenced houses, synths, cars etc - the key differentiator here being that they are resalable assets. For some reason most sample devs still, even those with their own players and copy protection, stick to EULAs that are customer-unfriendly. 

I've recently become a VSL fan-boy, not just because they make great libraries that are well edited and have fantastic quality control and continuously updated, but also because of their extremely customer-friendly approach to licensing, trials and resale, relative to the rest of the market. To the place now where, as a hobbyist, I don't want to buy anything any more that isn't resalable, as at the moment, there's no place down the road where I would recoup my money from revenue.

Hell, I'd even pay a premium to have trial/resale available.... For instance, OT Berlin/Ark series I would buy in an instant if it was later resalable.

I think the market is changing rapidly for devs right now. Covid clearly provided a dramatic upswing in revenues (you can see this from the freely available company annual reports from devs), and I imagine (and have read comments to the effect on this forum) that there's a matching downswing in progress, as normal life resumes and many hobbyists have their fill of libraries or have abandoned their short lived interest in orchestral music. This willl put further pressure on devs to differentiate themselves and keep revenues up, so a period of innovation and consolidation is likely to occur (devs merging, pooling resources to co-develop platforms etc)


----------



## Robert_G (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> They are for dumbasses like me who have no compositional skills and basically just collect them. Out of $14,568 spent, I've lost over $6k and will likely never buy another library.


Who are you?
And I find it odd that you know how much you spent right down to the last dollar.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I agree with that. Although I don't have much experience with Berlin Strings to recommend something that could replace it or do what it does in that price range, I wonder would you think less of Berlin Strings if it cost only $99? Would it feel somehow cheap to you at that price?
> 
> I think a lot of the triggered reactions to the post are because a lot of you (me included) have spent obscene amounts of money on libraries, therefore we feel the need to protect our identity and ego by dismissing the question entirely. Cause if sample libraries become cheaper and we paid the high price before the price was reduced, we would feel cheated in a way.


No, and that's why I often praise Hollywood Strings which has occasionally been on sale in that ballpark (there's an exception to every rule! Though we can go down a whole rabbithole here and talk about whether Hollywood Strings is the single reason why samples are as cheap as they are today. I think there's a good argument to be made there)


----------



## NoamL (Sep 25, 2022)

Another way to do this is say you have 2 people.

One person buys Spitfire Everything. Insane. $18,000. Terabytes of samples. Highly questionable life choice (Unless you are @David Kudell and get it for free)

The second person 'saves' their $18,000 and they go to a music contractor in LA and says "I have $18k to hire SONY or FOX for a 3 hour stint to record about 30-35 minutes of music for strings. Just a string orchestra no brass winds or perc. How many musicians are going to fit inside this budget?"

Eye opening.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 25, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> First, I wonder if there is a _value_ differential (and consequently, a different level of _artistic_ merit) when a violin player records a performance of a concerto along with his/her regular orchestra and when the same player is playing every sustained note at exactly _mezzo-forte_ while recording for a sample library. I daresay these are not the same, should not cost the same and should not be compared.


As a former (somewhat) professional violist, and now full time developer, I profoundly disagree. It takes exactly the same skill and years of training, and sampling sessions are physically grueling. It also takes a lot of talent to make single note takes sound musical. In fact, I’d argue that sampling sessions should pay way more than normal recording sessions.


youngpokie said:


> And second, I also wonder how a company that gets 90% of its revenue during a Black Friday


I don’t know about other companies, but Black Friday accounts for less than 20% of my revenue. Maybe I’m doing it wrong.


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Who are you?
> And I find it odd that you know how much you spent right down to the last dollar.


Just some nobody from Texas who works in IT and fancies pretty noises. Keeping track of payments is not tough as long as you are persistent. Maybe it is odd, but you wouldn't be the first person to address me as such.


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

I don't regret it. Could've spent the loss difference on an electric car or higher rent in a nicer neighborhood. The number is doing a great job of stifling any addiction I had though.


----------



## timbit2006 (Sep 25, 2022)

szczaw said:


> Yes, introduce flat pricing of $10 for everything so I can buy it all.


agreed. I think we can go even lower though. 1 dollar should get you an all you can download pass!


----------



## timbit2006 (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> I don't regret it. Could've spent the loss difference on an electric car or higher rent in a nicer neighborhood. The number is doing a great job of stifling any addiction I had though.


Why don't you take some courses on musical theory and make music instead of moping about wasting money and regretting it forever?


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> Why don't you take some courses on musical theory and make music instead of moping about wasting money and regretting it forever?


Sequence of events would be:

 Listen to video demos and get hooked
 After each purchase, play with it once or twice and forget about it
 After 22 months, take a look at the numbers, then start to panic
I'm almost 50 and the amount of time it would take to learn what a professional knows, while maintaining an existing career, to me makes it look impossible. So it does indeed make me sad. But when I go back and play the libraries I decided to keep, I'm always glad I have them. So it's not wholly regret.

I probably repeat it too often here, but I do feel obliged to warn people how the cost, most of them being from sales, can still get away from you quickly. If I'm just putting out bad noise, I'll happily desist and resume lurker mode.


----------



## Crowe (Sep 25, 2022)

No, most sample libraries are not overpriced.

Certainly not 5 Arks at 1500.

Your expectations are quite simply unrealistic and this hobby may not be meant for you.


----------



## HotCoffee (Sep 25, 2022)

What would happen if library devs only charged $99-149 instead of $399-699. Is it likely that the lower price would induce enough sales to ultimately earn them more money in the end?

Some plugin devs take this approach and bank on volumes rather than higher prices.


----------



## Robert_G (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> Just some nobody from Texas who works in IT and fancies pretty noises. Keeping track of payments is not tough as long as you are persistent. Maybe it is odd, but you wouldn't be the first person to address me as such.


It I ever developed the morbid curiosity to add up how much I've spent on this, I would literally die of a heart attack. Sometimes ignorance is the best way.......


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

I did want to reiterate from the above quote that I wasn't keeping track initially. I had to go back and carefully reassess the earlier purchases, and did so because I'm not a pro and felt I was spending too much. I just had no idea it was so much! If I was a musician by trade, I'm sure priorities would be with clients and projects for keeping track of finances.


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK (Sep 25, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> N


I was of the understanding that 149 is a relative downpayment and non-specific to any currency?
Also, it only gets you into the draw to buy N... sorry for the sad news


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> Just some nobody from Texas who works in IT and fancies pretty noises. Keeping track of payments is not tough as long as you are persistent. Maybe it is odd, but you wouldn't be the first person to address me as such.


Oh gosh!

So working in IT and liking pretty noises and samples is not specific to me :/

I too had to stop purchasing, and have an inventory of every library and plug-in I purchased on a spreadsheet (as a reminder to look at every now and then, informing myself of the dangers of G.A.S)


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 25, 2022)

NoamL said:


> One person buys Spitfire Everything. Insane. $18,000. Terabytes of samples. Highly questionable life choice (Unless you are @David Kudell and get it for free)
> 
> The second person 'saves' their $18,000 and they go to a music contractor in LA and says "I have $18k to hire SONY or FOX for a 3 hour stint to record about 30-35 minutes of music for strings. Just a string orchestra no brass winds or perc. How many musicians are going to fit inside this budget?"
> 
> Eye opening.


It's not eye opening, because it's not true. These two are fake similarities, they are nothing alike.

Going that way, we can say - if you have a text editor, you can write best-selling novel by yourself OR you can hire best-selling author to write one sentence for you. Therefor, text editors should cost thousands.

In your example, one gets generic product sold left and right, with ability to shape it through his creativity and skills of course, but it's still 100% same product that every one has.

The second one gets personalized recording, and is guaranteed that no one ever will have same performance recorded, his is totally unique.

It's the same if you go to a good brand store and get suit off the rack for 300$ or you can go to one of the best tailors in the world and pay him to make a suit just for you for 500000$. Would you say, that existence of 300$ suit clothes stores is "eye opening"?


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I was of the understanding that 149 is a relative downpayment and non-specific to any currency?
> Also, it only gets you into the draw to buy N... sorry for the sad news


Damn


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> So working in IT and liking pretty noises and samples is not specific to me :/


Apologies, I meant no offense. I can only speak for myself in that it took me much too long to realize that I did not enjoy the process of moving little rectangles around while my mix just keeps sounding worse and worse, meanwhile life's weekly obligations are still looming. When your thoughts start moving towards, "I wish I could just pay someone else to do this part", it's probably time to stop.


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 25, 2022)

I think most libraries are reasonably priced based on how much work goes into them/number of units they will probably sell.

Now I do think Altiverb is way overpriced. And Mir. Yes, they should be like $100 each. Yeah. 

I would add Omnisphere in this category, but I already paid about $300 for it, so everyone else should pay that much too. Isn't that how it works?


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 25, 2022)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Oh gosh!
> 
> So working in IT and liking pretty noises and samples is not specific to me :/
> 
> I too had to stop purchasing, and have an inventory of every library and plug-in I purchased on a spreadsheet (as a reminder to look at every now and then, informing myself of the dangers of G.A.S)


Ha. Also in IT, and also have a detailed spreadsheet with categories, ratings, cost / resale value etc. I think we are all of a certain personality type...! But it was an eye opener when I realised the rate at which I was buying stuff... slowed me right down...


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 25, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> Now I do think Altiverb is way overpriced. And Mir. Yes, they should be like $100 each. Yeah.


I wish there was an MIR-lite, a gateway into MIR. Something like an MIR insert that processed just that channel. And limited room pack for Synchron (with maybe 10 positions available, one per major instrument section). Then I could add in other dry sounds or recorded live instruments into the same Synchron space...


----------



## jazzman7 (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> Sequence of events would be:
> 
> Listen to video demos and get hooked
> After each purchase, play with it once or twice and forget about it
> ...


Well said. 

Truth be told, I'm not wanting to tally up how much I've spent in the past couple of years. At the same time, I like having the tools to do some cool stuff. Working on my poor skill set rather than buying more VI's (Except to fill in a hole or 2) has been more and more at the top of my list lately.


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

I keep saying I'll get there. But I listen to soundtracks in media all the time that make me think, "How the f--- did they think of that?!?". Have to wonder if I should have started this journey back in '96 when I first bought a rompler and an Atari ST with Cubase. That setup ended up getting me in heaps of trouble at work, due to staying up late and not focusing on certain priorities, so music making has only been a passive hobby ever since.


----------



## fakemaxwell (Sep 25, 2022)

kociol21 said:


> Going that way, we can say - if you have a text editor, you can write best-selling novel by yourself OR you can hire best-selling author to write one sentence for you. Therefor, text editors should cost thousands.


I hope you're not under the impression that the session orchestra you've hired is going to write the symphony for you...


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> Apologies, I meant no offense. I can only speak for myself in that it took me much too long to realize that I did not enjoy the process of moving little rectangles around while my mix just keeps sounding worse and worse, meanwhile life's weekly obligations are still looming. When your thoughts start moving towards, "I wish I could just pay someone else to do this part", it's probably time to stop.


I don't think you got my British sarcasm. No offence could be taken, because I was in agreement with you


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> As a former (somewhat) professional violist, and now full time developer, I profoundly disagree. It takes exactly the same skill and years of training, and sampling sessions are physically grueling. It also takes a lot of talent to make single note takes sound musical. In fact, I’d argue that sampling sessions should pay way more than normal recording sessions.
> 
> I don’t know about other companies, but Black Friday accounts for less than 20% of my revenue. Maybe I’m doing it wrong.


I disagree that sampling sessions should pay more than recording sessions, that’s ridiculous IMO. A recording session is just as grueling depending on the session, and it does not take the same amount of skill to play 1 note as it does to compose a new piece of music or let alone write a new composition. Completely different skill sets. 

However your approach to sample library pricing seems to be very reasonable already, so it doesn’t surprise me that black friday doesn’t do much for your sales. If I was gonna spend money on one of your libraries, your prices as they are are exactly what I’m talking about. Well priced (and hopefully) high quality. Kudos to you man and wish you much success!


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 25, 2022)

HotCoffee said:


> What would happen if library devs only charged $99-149 instead of $399-699. Is it likely that the lower price would induce enough sales to ultimately earn them more money in the end?
> 
> Some plugin devs take this approach and bank on volumes rather than higher prices.


Sometimes but not necessarily. More downloads means more potential problems you need to support, and people looking to spend less money might be doing less research and need more support in the first place--price can be a way of targeting the kind of customer a company wants. Price can also have an impact on perceived value and quality, to an extent. Some products sell better at a higher price point. It's up to each dev to find the balance that works for them because it's not always black and white


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

In reply to the MODERATOR NOTE on my original post:

I am perfectly fine with and expect people to disagree. Some do agree with me that some libraries are overpriced, some however find this topic silly (although pricing of libraries should definitely be talked about more) I even expect people to ignore the thread all together, I take no issue with any of that. 

I do feel it’s wrong for a moderator to try and force people to “ignore” the thread. That feels like censorship. I barely use the site and know how to ignore a thread, and I definitely have not bashed any companies or insisted libraries should only be $20 BTW. 

So you can keep the moderator note on my post, that’s up to you. I don’t think it’s necessary, but I also know this site advertises a lot for developers so the thread could be problematic, which is not my intention.

But the overall topic “are sample libraries too expensive, or overpriced” is definitely a topic and discussion these forums should have more often in a respectful, considerate way. Especially considering how much money we all spend 😌

Cheers Everyone!


----------



## Fidelity (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I do feel it’s wrong for a moderator to try and force people to “ignore” the thread. That feels like censorship.


It looks more like an attempt to prevent this from turning into WW3 than coercing/forcing anyone. What do you think this is, KVRaudio?


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 25, 2022)

Is there a way to turn off the moderator notes? 🤪


----------



## ShidoStrife (Sep 25, 2022)

you're comparing sample libraries to Waves, but do you consider how much pro libraries cost back when Waves sold their plugins for $299? They're like thousands of dollars. If anything, the hundreds that we have now is already pretty cheap.


----------



## timbit2006 (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> Sequence of events would be:
> Listen to video demos and get hooked
> After each purchase, play with it once or twice and forget about it
> After 22 months, take a look at the numbers, then start to panic
> ...


What will you do when you are 90 years old and you've realized you could have spent the last 40 years perfecting your skills and musical capabilities? I'll just leave you with that question.
Your warning is definitely one worth heeding, a lot of us get the same way.


----------



## fakemaxwell (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I disagree that sampling sessions should pay more than recording sessions, that’s ridiculous IMO. A recording session is just as grueling depending on the session, and it does not take the same amount of skill to play 1 note as it does to compose a new piece of music or let alone write a new composition. Completely different skill sets.


This is a weird through-line in this thread. People understand that the session musicians performing pieces are not the people writing the music...right?

Sample recording sessions are significantly more difficult than your average score recording. Playing one note over and over for hours and maintaining some sort of feeling is extremely difficult.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

To introduce a little math into the thread, say a developer sells a library for $149. But could sell 50% more copies of that Library if they slashed the price 30% permanently. 

The Library would now be $105, much cheaper, but greater profits for the developer. Let’s say 5,000 people purchase the library at $149. That’s $745,000 in revenue. 

10,000 people purchase at $105? $1,050,000 in revenue. Plus double the brand exposure of the company, and a much larger pool of potential customers for subsequent library releases. 

So not only could lowering library cost improve revenue for developers, they could in the long run develop a more sustainable business with a larger customer base. Which is essential for longevity. 

So lowering library cost doesn’t have to = people being paid less for the amazing work they do, it’s quite the opposite actually, they could be paid more and have a larger customer base by reaching more people with better pricing.


----------



## fakemaxwell (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> say a developer sells a library for $149. But could sell 50% more copies of that Library if they slashed the price 30% permanently.


Do you believe that developers are not currently weighing costs vs price with regard to how many units they can sell?


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> This is a weird through-line in this thread. People understand that the session musicians performing pieces are not the people writing the music...right?
> 
> Sample recording sessions are significantly more difficult than your average score recording. Playing one note over and over for hours and maintaining some sort of feeling is extremely difficult.


I work in a lot of pop & rock genres, and as a session musician a lot of times you do have to come up with a new melody, new riffs or fills to add to a track. A lot of times I’ve been called in to play on a record that the artist ends of scratching before I get there, then when I get there I have to play or start a new track from scratch (basically produce or co-produce a new record on the spot) to start the session. This has happened on Guitar and Keys for me plenty of times.

That I would argue is way more difficult and challenging than playing 1 note all day.


----------



## JDK88 (Sep 25, 2022)

I think sales are a way to test the water for a permanent price decrease down the line.


----------



## proxima (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> To introduce a little math into the thread, say a developer sells a library for $149. But could sell 50% more copies of that Library if they slashed the price 30% permanently.'


Sample library developers understand how their sales reacts to changes in the price (that is, the demand elasticity) better than you do. Some undoubtedly get it wrong, but you've offered no evidence that they systematically charge too much.


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> To introduce a little math into the thread, say a developer sells a library for $149. But could sell 50% more copies of that Library if they slashed the price 30% permanently.
> 
> The Library would now be $105, much cheaper, but greater profits for the developer. Let’s say 5,000 people purchase the library at $149. That’s $745,000 in revenue.
> 
> ...


It all depends on how elastic demand is. This is something developers don’t know but have to guess or test. But also the optimal pricing strategy might be to price high, sell copies at a premium for a year, then offer on discount. Temporary sales also result in different buying patterns than permanent mark downs. Lower pricing can affect the classing of the library, so some buyers overlook it as being cheap. Others want more exclusivity and so want something higher priced because it means fewer other people will have it.


----------



## zwhita (Sep 25, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> What will you do when you are 90 years old and you've realized you could have spent the last 40 years perfecting your skills and musical capabilities?


It might take me that long to get a few projects done. Point is I don't like composing nearly as much as I thought I would. I just like sound and certain sounds bring me happiness.

In that 50 years, those much, much better than me at this will compose works much greater than I ever could or would. I'm fine with that. It's just a pity I had to spend so much to know for sure.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 25, 2022)

zwhita said:


> It might take me that long to get a few projects done. Point is I don't like composing nearly as much as I thought I would. I just like sound and certain sounds bring me happiness.
> 
> In that 50 years, those much, much better than me at this will compose works much greater than I ever could or would. I'm fine with that. It's just a pity I had to spend so much to know for sure.


Hey man, don’t count yourself out! My mentor who has worked on some of the biggest musical projects imaginable, had his best run in his late 40s. And still having one incredible run in his 50s still today. 

A great musical composition does not care if you are 5 or 50 years old. Music is it’s own little language


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 25, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> What will you do when you are 90 years old and you've realized you could have spent the last 40 years perfecting your skills and musical capabilities?


Presumably, look back on all the other fulfilling things he did in his life, great grandchildren and family and not care too much that he didn't perfect his musical ability in the same way no one looks back and wishes they perfected speedrunning Mario.

It is also true that not everyone is capable of perfecting such skills and they'd be better off pursuing something they do have the aptitude for. I will never be good at drawing, so I don't bother trying anymore, and I'm on track to die with zero regret over giving up.



JDK88 said:


> I think sales are a way to test the water for a permanent price decrease down the line.


Probably, but the other thing is you can get bursts of sales if people think they're getting a deal.

You let the wealthier, high-time preference types and professionals who make up a handful of your customers buy it at whatever price through the year, buy your new speedboat, and then when a holiday rolls around, you slash it 50% for a week to throw some crumbs at the peasantry and that'll make enough that week maybe to get the summer cruise fund in order.


----------



## X-Bassist (Sep 25, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> In reply to the MODERATOR NOTE on my original post:
> 
> I am perfectly fine with and expect people to disagree. Some do agree with me that some libraries are overpriced, some however find this topic silly (although pricing of libraries should definitely be talked about more) I even expect people to ignore the thread all together, I take no issue with any of that.
> 
> ...


You may be unaware that the moderator could be the websites owner who is a Sample Developer. Therefore saying sample libraries are too expensive is an offense to him thus the sample libraries should be $20 comment, which of course you never said. (I agree there should be the ignore moderator comment button Lol). But what are you gonna do when there’s a 500 pound gorilla in the room.😄 Perhaps moderators should remain neutral and not let personal feelings or outside business ventures get in the way of simply moderating, or staying moderate. Just MHO.


----------



## Crowe (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I disagree that sampling sessions should pay more than recording sessions, that’s ridiculous IMO. A recording session is just as grueling depending on the session, and it does not take the same amount of skill to play 1 note as it does to compose a new piece of music or let alone write a new composition. Completely different skill sets.


What. This doesn't even make any sense. Nobody composes a new piece of music during a recording session (fringe cases do not count in this equation). It has nothing to do with anything.

Do you even realize how long sampling sessions take? Articulations, Round Robbins, velocity layers, true legato. Hours upon hours upon days and days. Musicians, like everyone else in the world, *get paid for their time.*

You're fundamentally and wilfully misunderstanding the reality of the situation.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> But could sell 50% more copies of that Library if they slashed the price 30% permanently.


You’re making that up, a 30% price reduction will never ever lead to 50% more sales in the real world. But go ahead, make your own library and try to sell it. 

As to the point of whether sampling takes the same skill as performing, I spent 10 years as a professional violist in various orchestras and now I sample stuff for a living, including sampling my own playing. When I say that sampling sessions are way harder than recording sessions, it’s because I know. They also carry a significantly higher risk of injury, in a profession that already has one one of the highest injury rates.


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 26, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> You’re making that up, a 30% price reduction will never ever lead to 50% more sales in the real world. But go ahead, make your own library and try to sell it.


Yeah, that doesn't seem possible. There is always some sweet spot where you have the best revenue, and when decreasing or increasing the prize will cut your income. It's not so easy to find.

And then it's only one part of the equation. There is also that phenomenon where big price cut actually cuts sales instead of increasing it. What, how? Because of brand positioning. Especially when it comes to niche markets, many people want to have the feeling of getting "premium" product. Premium should be expensive, that's just how it works. If you release something for 999$ it can be premium, if you do for 99$? Meh, some trash, probably.

And also, there is the problem of starting a price war, and nobody ever wants to do that. Sometimes the market is figured out, all competitors play the same game and everyone is happy. Then out of the blue, one has an idea of aggressively acquiring new customers by doing massive sales, far deeper than every other competitor. And moments later, everyone is forced to do those. And cycle continues. 

So the point is, it's hard to find a sweet price point and even if you know where it is, there are a lot of reasons where you can deliberately not aim for this point.


----------



## Crowe (Sep 26, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> You’re making that up, a 30% price reduction will never ever lead to 50% more sales in the real world. But go ahead, make your own library and try to sell it.


I've come to the conclusion that OP is making pretty much *everything *up*. *It's a pretty striking combination of 'conjuring up numbers out of thin air' and logical fallacies.

I have no horse in this race whatsoever and it *still* doesn't make any sense.


----------



## GtrString (Sep 26, 2022)

In general, I don’t think they are. The cost of my guitars is far more than the collective pool of my virtual instruments.

VI’s are not all created equal, though. Some put a lot of effort into their VI’s, others a lot less. So it’s reasonable to have a large range of prices in this domain.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 26, 2022)

In general, the question of whether excessive profits are made with a product is very complex and affects society as a whole. This question includes: How much individual wealth do we want to allow and how much profit of a company is still beneficial for a society. In Germany, for example, you can see that in the current situation many companies need several million reserves. Biontech has definitely made a profit from Corona, but is also working to make the world a better place. Some companies are much less useful socially. My impression so far is that software developers tend to put a lot of profits into new projects and innovations, which in turn benefits the musicians. This market is of course international and the average salary and running costs vary greatly in different cities and countries. For my part, I think it's good when company founders can live quite well, but a lot of money profit goes back into the company.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> say a developer.....
> 
> Let’s say......


Let's say a developer raises prices to 80000$ and loses 10% more sales. 

So not only could raising library cost improve revenue for developers, they could in the long run develop a more sustainable business with a smaller specialized customer base. Which is essential for longevity.

I too can use the lets say and pull random numbers out. 
but I'm sure the half dozen or so accountants, marketing employees, analysts, whatever at Spitfire and various other big companies have got it all wrong and that they've been pricing it all wrong. 

I'm so lost as to what your point is here. Are you suggesting that companies are purposefully pursuing a business strategy to make them less money? To what end? 

Unfortunately reality only lets you use actual values instead of imaginary lets say values.


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I do feel it’s wrong for a moderator to try and force people to “ignore” the thread. That feels like censorship.


Hi, it’s actually very different from censorship – and they weren’t trying to force us to ignore the thread. Still, a surprising move, probably triggered by your not-so-convincing statement about what buyers shouldn’t have to pay for. 

IMO the topic is interesting, and I agree that some libraries are overpriced. The topic should be interesting for developers as well: what if they would make more money for the same amount of work if they reduced the price?


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Musicians, like everyone else in the world, *get paid for their time*


Actually, they often don’t. Some of the those who are sampled also (partially?) work on a commission deal.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> To introduce a little math into the thread, say a developer sells a library for $149. But could sell 50% more copies of that Library if they slashed the price 30% permanently.
> 
> The Library would now be $105, much cheaper, but greater profits for the developer. Let’s say 5,000 people purchase the library at $149. That’s $745,000 in revenue.
> 
> ...


I love when one makes math out of his ass… seriously, I haven’t read that much horseshit on VI-C for a while. You’re either ignorant, dumb or both.

Then why not continue in your stupid math analogy and then not sell it for $105 but for $29 instead and then have 1,000,000 customers (you see, I can also use numbers out of my ass), then the developers would make $29M… that MUST be the solution, right? Jeez 🤦‍♂️

As always in a free-market society, if it’s too expensive for you, just don’t buy it. But if a product get sold, or even become very popular, it simply mean it’s priced just right and there’s a customer base for THAT product at THAT price. Don’t think for a second that you’re any smarter than developers when it comes to price their products, the result of their hard labor. If they’re too expensive and don’t sell as much as they need, they will revise their pricing. That’s the whole beauty of a free market society.


----------



## StillLife (Sep 26, 2022)

Ain't it all relative? And in multiple ways?

Due to last year's insane inflation, sample libraries have become a lot cheaper, relatively (I haven't seen an increase in prices, just more sales).
Then again: due to things I really NEED (energy, food) being so expensive now, I hesitate to spend any money on a luxury that is a sample library... 

For me it all comes down to: 'Don't buy what you can't afford to buy'


----------



## Futchibon (Sep 26, 2022)

I think a much more pertinent question is *why do some devs allow reselling but most do not?* 

Those that do offer WAY more value for money, and should be supported IMO. 

Embertone!
Project Sam!
VSL!
etc...


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> If they’re too expensive and don’t sell as much as they need, they will revise their pricing.


That's actually not true; not always. Or – they'll reduce the price, but wait very long before they're doing so.

I disagree, of course, with the statement about customers never should have to pay for any of 'those things' (studio/50 players/5 days) regardless of how large or small the market is for a product.

When CSS was released in 2016, for a much lower price than the competition, it didn't take long for the other developers to start adjusting prices either, and they probably would have done that earlier if CSS was released earlier. Mural 1 – a very incomplete product – had been released a couple of years before that for £399. Mural 2 had the same price, and one also had to pay for Mural 3 + the ensemble patches/presets separately (and evolutions, of course). <

High price combined with no returns, no trial period and not being resell-able is horrible combo.

The core of all this has, IMO, mainly to do with how many users who are buyng these libraries. Let'd say that at some point, there was 10,000 buers, and that today, there are 200,000. Just guessing of course, but it's just an example. If one can sell 20 times as many copies of a library today than one could x years ago, we should expect prices to be much lower – but some companies seem to disagree.

The price also often relates to how many players one pays for. Still, a solo violin library doesn't cost a/60th of a 60 piece orchestra, for several reasons (maybe the amount of editing time and other expenses aren't that different). But in general, instead of looking at what one could be frustrated over, I'd rather use examples of positive change we have seen. For instance, SF Appassionata Strings costs a lot less (and sounds a lot more believable) than many of their earlier string libraries, but sells for 249 when not discounted. This is partially because it's a legato 'only' library, but still – legato + 5 dyn. layers etc means more time and expenses. One of the reasons are increased competition, of course, but also: there are a lot more customers.

CSS isn't doing as well as it does in all these string library polls due to the price alone, of course, but they did a lot of things right: Easy UI. Great samples. Several, good legato options. Dedicated vibrato control. Higher degree of 'soaringness' in the lower dynamics than several other leading libraries, and a hard working team/main guy who has kept working on improving it instead of launching 5 other semi-believable string libraries. I'm pretty sure many of the larger companies have looked closely at what companies like CSS and Performance Samples do, both in terms of expessiveness and price. If they keep doing that, and maybe also look at other, smaller companies – Ben Osterhouse is the first which pops up in my mind – all will end well unless Putin fries the planet.

Conclusion: make fewer libraries, but make them so incredible that lots of us will buy them. That would, IMO, be beneficial for both buyers and sellers.

Btw, I think that the VSL pianos (and SS Pro, with only two dynamic layers for the long notes/legatos) are overpriced. The CSS 1.7 update was underpriced!


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Vik said:


> That's actually not true; not always. Or – they'll reduce the price, but wait very long before they're doing so.



If they’re waiting for long before to decrease the price, it simply means they didn’t have to reduce it until then. That’s the way it works in a free-market society… why a company would reduce its prices if they keep selling as well as they were expecting to? So if a company doesn’t reduce its prices, it simply mean the prices weren’t too high for the market they were aiming for. 

As always, don’t buy it if you can’t afford it or don’t like the product or the company. But don’t whine if others can and will buy those libraries. It’s a free market, which means you’re also free not to spend your money on product/companies you don’t like if you believe they’re too expensive and not worth their price tags.


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> If they’re waiting for long before to decrease the price, it simply means they didn’t have to reduce it until then


I know how the market works, and that the market is _partially_ free (most people can't afford/can't raise money to build such companies), but the topic is if these libraries are overpriced!


----------



## handz (Sep 26, 2022)

Oh my, such a topic, where do I have my popcorn? 

If this was 15 years ago I would say yes, but now I have to say NO, they are mostly not. If we talk about orchestral libraries, where the amount of work is absolutely insane, I think the current prices (especially considering they are on sale all the time) are very affordable (many options for lite / medium versions etc).


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Vik said:


> I know how the market works, and that the market is _partially_ free (most people can't afford/can't raise money to build such companies), but the topic is if these libraries are overpriced!


The market IS free. Anyone can try to start a business, and anyone is free to purchase or not a product. If you can’t afford a library, you’re simply not in the good line of work.

- If you’re a professional composer, you can invest in libraries for your work and you can start with virtually nothing these days because you can just get a $20 subscription such EW OPUS and do your first projects with that. And then you can slowly invest your earned money in other libraries according to your projects/incomes. Buying any library will still be way cheaper that renting a high-end studio with 50 musicians you need to pay.

- If you’re NOT a professional composer, then you don’t NEED those libraries, you simply WANT them for your hobby. So the notion of “can’t afford” doesn’t apply to hobbies since there’s no profit involved and therefore any library over $0 is by definition overpriced in a hobby where you’re making 0 income.

The only problem I see here is people that have no income to spend on those libraries, that still want them because they’re nice… and therefore they would want them to be cheaper so they could afford it; but they forget that libraries (like plugins, DAW, etc…) are TOOLS… and therefore they’re priced according to the market that aim to the people that would need and use those tools. You’re simply not in this market if you can’t afford it and therefore they’re not tools made for you.

The quicker you accept this fact, the happier you will become. I’m not a golfer, so I have no income from Golfing. So it would simply be stupid to go on a forum to complain that Iron clubs are just too expensive, when they’re designed and made to be used by people like Tiger Woods.


----------



## hokkaido (Sep 26, 2022)

Many sample companies are fairly small, no? Orchestra Tools for instance advertises 20 employees on their website. To those who propose that they should just lower prices and increase customers that way and assuming that would work from a demand perspective: Are you aware that this would require them to grow with regards to after sales support, feature requests, bug reports and so on? There is a difference between serving 1'000 customers and 100'000. The same is true for other areas (infrastructure, etc.). These are entirely different market segments as well. You will suddenly have to field requests from people who don't even know what a DAW is and who don't know that they will need to have ample storage, and you will have bug reports from people who forget to connect to the WiFi when they tried to download the samples.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> The only problem I see here is people that have no income to spend on those libraries, that still want them because they’re nice… and therefore they would want them to be cheaper so they could afford it; but they forget that libraries (like plugins, DAW, etc…) are TOOLS… and therefore they’re priced according to the market that aim to the people that would need and use those tools. You’re simply not in this market if you can’t afford it and therefore they’re not tools made for you.


Tools? Toys. A craftsman does not need very many but useful tools. But a hobbyist can never have enough toys. What is the better target group?


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> You’re making that up, a 30% price reduction will never ever lead to 50% more sales in the real world. But go ahead, make your own library and try to sell it.
> 
> As to the point of whether sampling takes the same skill as performing, I spent 10 years as a professional violist in various orchestras and now I sample stuff for a living, including sampling my own playing. When I say that sampling sessions are way harder than recording sessions, it’s because I know. They also carry a significantly higher risk of injury, in a profession that already has one one of the highest injury rates.


Of course I’m making up the math in a hypothetical situation that could or could not happen. Where in my post did I say otherwise? I never claimed those numbers were fact and only said “what if” that actually happened. I never said that would absolutely happen like some of you are insinuating smh. 

And we will agree to disagree on the second part. Spend the next 2 weeks composing a full piece of new music every single day (which is usually how it goes for new album releases and working with artist) and not only compose a new piece of music, but make sure it’s actually good and the artist wants to use it. Do that vs spend 2 weeks every day sampling notes, round robins and doing all of that (which I’m sure is hard as well) and you tell me which one is more difficult to do.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

It’s no different that thinking a $500k Ferrari is too expensive, and that Ferrari should make a $50k car, so they could sell 10 times more, or even 20 times more cars… it’s not realistic and not gonna happen. Economy of scale has its limit at reaching a specific market.

if you believe there’s 100,000 potential customers for high-end libraries out there, you should leave VI-C for a moment and live in the real world.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Sep 26, 2022)

Here you go OP, I think this is what you meant...


----------



## handz (Sep 26, 2022)

Getsumen said:


> I feel like people are shifting the goalposts now. A library having a high list price, but then going on sale does not make them overpriced?


Well, to some content actually yes, as most devs have sales 3x a year and I bet they count with this when pricing the library, they don't wanna lose money, so the basic price is high on purpose. They are not samaritans.


kociol21 said:


> Man, as much as I sympathize with your points, going to VI-Control with such hot take seems similar to going straight into some exclusive country club and complaining that golf clubs should cost 10 bucks, because you can't afford them :D
> 
> You are heading straight into territory of super-whales fueled by endless GAS.


Yes, this is sadly a problem on this forum lately (seriously), I am here since day 1, when sample libs still were quite a small niche and mostly used by pros and a big majority of people here were hobbyists or beginners in this field, now this is more of a "pros only" kind of forum (you can clearly see this from the topics, almost nobody posts their compositions to reviews, there is very little talk about composing techniques etc).
So any discussion regarding the high price of anything gets smashed by people who do this for decades and make big money, buying anything anytime because they just can. They totally forgot that not everyone is on this level yet and even they were for sure not happy with the price of some stuff when they were starting out.


liquidlino said:


> will find it's pricing level by the very nature of open markets.


Well, yeah as with high price points you need to sell to fewer people still does not mean that the price is affordable. I think most libs are affordable nowadays but I really do not like this "open market" logic to justify the price of something. Is iPHONE overpriced? Hell yeah it is, if anyone says that 2500 phone is a reasonable price, he just lying to himself. It costs a Macbook Pro and it's for most people just a phone, they do not use it for work, it lasts 1-2 years before they replace it. It is insanely overpriced, and still, it's the most sold phone on the planet. But it is overpriced as hell for what it is. Things do not make sense sometimes.


SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I disagree that sampling sessions should pay more than recording sessions, that’s ridiculous IMO. A recording session is just as grueling depending on the session, and it does not take the same amount of skill to play 1 note as it does to compose a new piece of music or let alone write a new composition. Completely different skill sets.


This is not so easy. Yeah to play 1 note over and over like an idiot is "easier" than studying a new piece and play it well, but it is also way more exhausting mentally and boring as hell. If I was a musician, this would be quite a torture.


thesteelydane said:


> You’re making that up, a 30% price reduction will never ever lead to 50% more sales in the real world. But go ahead, make your own library and try to sell it


Not sure how it is in Sample Lib world but it pretty much can cause this in most other product categories.


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 26, 2022)

For what is worth, I can offer even hotter take on the subject, that OP's hot take.

I would like for sample libraries, and all software for that matter, move into direction that are already adopted in some software markets - it's completely, 100% free of charge and all income is generated by licensing rather than selling. It's free as long as you don't make money off it. If you want to use it professionally, you have to pay licensing. Then - support, it's also a thing in some branches that you can get product for free, but you have to pay to have fast and dedicated 24h support or something. Thought that probably would be harder for sample libraries and well... companies would have to actually offer support. Anyway, all software moves very slowly towards "free or costing pennies unless you want to make money with it - then it's freaking expensive" or second trend - "You can buy it technically but it is ridiculously expensive, because we don't want you to buy it, we want you to subscribe to our cloud and pay monthly".


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (Sep 26, 2022)

When I started making music with computers in the 70s and 80s, there were no software instruments or libraries. I was able to buy a "cheap" instrument like a DX7 or an M1, which were $2000 each. This is the equivalent of $7000 each today, and these were considered amazing deals at the time. Finally, consumers could buy synths! The big Moogs, a Fairlight ($32,000) or a Synclavier ($25,000 to $200,000) were mostly owned by schools and superstars. I bought a DX7 and an M1, a Minimoog, an Ensoniq Mirage, and a lot of other stuff, like drum machines. Reverbs and compressors and equalizers were all hardware. And I recorded into a reel-to-reel, of course. The computer wasn't cheap. So in today's dollars, what was I spending?

From my perspective, what is available nowadays is incredibly cheap. And the "strings" and "piano" sounds was making back then sound pretty primitive today. I went away from music for awhile, and when I came back I was amazed at how much the technology had advanced.


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Anyone can try to start a business, and anyone is free to purchase or not a product. If you can’t afford a library, you’re simply not in the good line of work.


I was talking about the ability to start a company which makes sample library, but this topic is simply too much for this thread.

Since the sample library market is much larger than 10-15 years ago, it should be possible to lower the prices. Several have done that already I've noticed that Spitfire has 200k+ followers on YouTube. There are lots of educators, musicians, ex-musicians, film/TV composers, hobbyists and those who have a full, regular job and music as a hobby (they may be less concerned with price than us freelancers) who are interested in libraries.

If they all become more modular – also in the sense that one can buy instruments a la carte, the market could become very large, and probably is larger than I, for one, assumed not long a go. Many of these buyers and potential buyers aren't on forums like this, and some of them probably would disappear soon when they see all the abbreviations anyway.

IMO, the future is rather bright, and is more 'democratic'/hobbyist-friendly than ever, which is great.

Edit: USA represents circa 4-5% of the world population. Don't forget that these libraries are sold all over the world.


----------



## Loïc D (Sep 26, 2022)

Hell yes, it’s overpriced and it drives me crazy.

Let me do 30 minutes of drift in my F40 to calm me down.

…

On a more serious side, what bugs me with this kind of topic (same with overpriced education) is that the OP seem to consider that companies (software, sample, educational) are evil organizations aiming at sucking everyone’s money to pile up golden nuggets with cheesy marketing tricks.
Not ever company is Philip Morris, guys.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Vik said:


> I was talking about the ability to start a company which makes sample library, but this topic is simply too much for this thread.


Anyone can try today… that’s actually how many business now famous did start in the first place. It’s actually so much easier today than it was before the era of Internet and easy e-commerce.



Vik said:


> I've noticed that Spitfire has 200k+ followers on YouTube.



And everyone knows 1 follower means 1 guaranteed buyer…. 🤦‍♂️



Vik said:


> IMO, the future is rather bright, and is more 'democratic'/hobbyist-friendly than ever, which is great.


Democratic? Because someone is putting a gun on your head to force you to purchase anything today, right? 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Heinigoldstein (Sep 26, 2022)

Reid Rosefelt said:


> When I started making music with computers, there were no software instruments or libraries. I was able to buy a "cheap" instrument like a DX7 or an M1, which were $2000 each. This is the equivalent of $7000 each today, and these were amazing deals. Getting more patches could cost up to $100. I bought both, a Minimoog, an Ensoniq Mirage, and a lot of other stuff, like drum machines. Reverbs and compressors and equalizers were all hardware. And I recorded into a reel-to-reel, of course. The computer wasn't cheap. So in today's dollars, what was I spending? Of course if you were Peter Gabriel, you could buy a Fairlight ($32,000) or a Synclavier ($25,000 to $200,000).
> 
> From my perspective, what is available nowadays is incredibly cheap. And the "strings" and "piano" sound sI was making back in the day sound pretty primitive today.


Well, that's probably the experience for most of us dinosaurs. When I started as a musician, a decent synth like OB 8 or Prophet 5 costs about 10k German mark. An Emulator 1 was over 26k (about 2,5 sec sample time mono , a Lexikon 480 reverb could've cost 10k and an Otari 24 track tape machine easily hit the 100k. Computers hit the market and made everything cheap and it still gets cheaper. The early VSL editions reached up to 7000.-/8000.- and look at the big libraries now, they hardly reach € 1000.- nowadays..... Actually I'm very surprised that so many developers do exist and make a (part-time) living in such a nice market. So for a dinosaur like me, it still feels like paradise.


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Democratic? Because someone is putting a gun on your head to force you to purchase anything today, right? 🤦‍♂️


I don't know what you mean. By 'democratic' I meant that lower prices = more people can afford to buy them.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Here you go OP, I think this is what you meant...


No, not at all. 

Naroth Audio (love Bloom), Artistry Audio (Scorpio and Monolith are fun to use) Teletone Audio (fantastic libraries all around), Heavyocity Mosaic Series, Soundpaint (a lot of great libraries), Luftrum Libraries, even Native Instruments Play Series have some useable sounds, so many other great developers as well who don’t have overpriced libraries without any kind of sale, I’m likely forgetting a lot of them! 
A few of the ones I named above are just currently in heavy use lately for a project, so they are fresh in my mind.


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 26, 2022)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> They're not.
> 
> Sample libraries are targeting a vastly smaller audience than albums or TV shows. Because they are sold to far fewer people, prices need to be higher to recoup production costs.
> 
> Larger companies are more able to have "loss leaders" in their catalog, but I think it's unreasonable to expect that from every developer, and certainly impossible to expect it from every product. Many products from Spitfire's Originals series are things that they recorded over a decade ago and have already made back their full investment on.


Well that I don't believe it true at all. There are sample libraries targeted at all sorts of people.









Epic Music Producer 2022


We’ve teamed up with Producer Loops for our newest bundle. Get 45 Royalty Free Sample Packs with 13,250 WAV loops/one-shots and over 3,300 MIDI files. Plus, pay what you want & support Alzheimer's Research UK!




www.humblebundle.com





FWIW.. Yeah. I do think some of these libraries are very expensive when you realize it's a hobby that will not ever generate an income. I don't know how much time, effort and money goes into making these libraries. But it is very expensive when you think about it.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 26, 2022)

Vik said:


> Edit: USA represents circa 4-5% of the world population. Don't forget that these libraries are sold all over the world.


And yet more than a third of my customers are in the US.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

Loïc D said:


> On a more serious side, what bugs me with this kind of topic (same with overpriced education) is that the OP seem to consider that companies (software, sample, educational) are evil organizations aiming at sucking everyone’s money to pile up golden nuggets with cheesy marketing tricks.
> Not ever company is Philip Morris, guys.


I never said anything close to that, and I don’t hold that view. Not all companies are the same and I wouldn’t assume a company has evil intentions based on pricing alone.


----------



## MusicStudent (Sep 26, 2022)

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. And of couse that goes for all the other genders. But to answer the question, No libraries are not overpriced. Pricing is set by the market.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

ProjectSAM is one of my favorite developers and I use a lot of the libraries they make all the time, but Symphobia 4: Pandora still cost $549. For a library of risers, falls and crescendos and other specialty sounds you may not use in every score, does that not seem overpriced? 

Would any of you pay $549 today without searching and seeing what comparable libraries are going for? 

I’ve been around wealthy people a lot in my life, and you’d be surprised at how many check price tags quite often and try to haggle prices. Sir Paul McCartney is reportedly famous for penny pinching. And I’m pretty sure it’s not much that he couldn’t afford


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Vik said:


> I don't know what you mean. By 'democratic' I meant that lower prices = more people can afford to buy them.


Being affordable has nothing to do with being ‘democratic’… that’s a fallacy.


----------



## Voider (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> ProjectSAM is one of my favorite developers and I use a lot of the libraries they make all the time, but Symphobia 4: Pandora still cost $549. For a library of risers, falls and crescendos and other specialty sounds you may not use in every score, does that not seem overpriced?
> 
> Would any of you pay $549 today without searching and seeing what comparable libraries are going for?



This has been answered many times:


Spid said:


> - If you’re NOT a professional composer, then you don’t NEED those libraries, you simply WANT them for your hobby. So the notion of “can’t afford” doesn’t apply to hobbies since there’s no profit involved and therefore any library over $0 is by definition overpriced in a hobby where you’re making 0 income.



If you're scoring a movie and your score needs a lot of risers, falls and crescendos, and you get paid several thousands for that score, then $549 is a rather cheap investment compared to what it would cost you to let an orchestra play and record all of that for you personally.

If you're a hobbyist who barely uses any risers, falls and crescendos so that you need to ask yourself whether it's worth the price because you "may not use it in every score", why would you plan to buy that library at all?


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

As already mentioned, for Hobbyist, technically anything above $0 is already too expensive since it’s not justifiable since it’s a hobby and makes no income/profit. For a professional, any purchase must be an investment that could be justified depending the situation and projects, regardless if it’s a $0.99 application or a $10k library bundle.


----------



## GtrString (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> ProjectSAM is one of my favorite developers and I use a lot of the libraries they make all the time, but Symphobia 4: Pandora still cost $549. For a library of risers, falls and crescendos and other specialty sounds you may not use in every score, does that not seem overpriced?
> 
> Would any of you pay $549 today without searching and seeing what comparable libraries are going for?
> 
> I’ve been around wealthy people a lot in my life, and you’d be surprised at how many check price tags quite often and try to haggle prices. Sir Paul McCartney is reportedly famous for penny pinching. And I’m pretty sure it’s not much that he couldn’t afford


ProjectSAM is one of my faves too, and while the price is a hurdle for me here too, I do understand the market. This is a specialty library that sells way less than others, so they need to charge more per sale.

It's actually great that they offer it anyway, as they probably have predicted to sell way less licenses for it. If they are not in business, they would have nothing to offer you at all.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Also, if one really believes a library/company is too expensive, then what are you waiting for to make yours and be competitive. We’ve seen it many times here on VI-C, composers are not super faithful to a brand, and they don’t hesitate to buy a library from a competitor if the library is good and well priced. 10 or 20 years ago, most of the developers we know didn’t even existed back then… So it proves anyone can try and become successful and bring products on the market. So if you think a library is too expensive, make your own that you can sell cheaper… let’s see how that turns out.


----------



## handz (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> if you believe there’s 100,000 potential customers for high-end libraries out there, you should leave VI-C for a moment and live in the real world.


Are you serious? Did you ever saw a website like Soundsonline or Bestservice? There are of course millions of potential customers for "high end" (what is it anyways? ) libraries nowadays. there is no way all the current sample devs could do ok with just a 100k potential customer base. And yes, amount of followers on social sites of sample devs or tutorial makers on YT is a good indicator of how many people out there are potentially interested in buying samples.


Spid said:


> - If you’re NOT a professional composer, then you don’t NEED those libraries, you simply WANT them for your hobby. So the notion of “can’t afford” doesn’t apply to hobbies since there’s no profit involved and therefore any library over $0 is by definition overpriced in a hobby where you’re making 0 income.


This is the most wrong statement ever. Good luck to start a career as a photographer with a compact camera nowadays. Or making videos with VHS recorder. No, sadly, to be able to compete you need to start with decent equipment. The "just buy something cheap for a start" won't get you anywhere, your results will suck, working will be frustrating and nobody will be amazed with the results, sadly, you always have to get decent gear first. 
And saying something like "if you cant afford something you don't deserve it" is the most shitty thing to say, seriously.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> if you believe there’s 100,000 potential customers for high-end libraries out there, you should leave VI-C for a moment and live in the real world.


errr...I think there's a lot more than that.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

handz said:


> Are you serious? Did you ever saw a website like Soundsonline or Bestservice? There are of course millions of potential customers for "high end" (what is it anyways? ) libraries nowadays. there is no way all the current sample devs could do ok with just a 100k potential customer base. And yes, amount of followers on social sites of sample devs or tutorial makers on YT is a good indicator of how many people out there are potentially interested in buying samples.


🤦‍♂️ We’re not talking about Best Service that sell any kind of library, but we’re discussing here about Composer high-end libraries (VSL, Spitfire, OT, etc…). That’s a complete different market from Beatmakers, musicians and such…



handz said:


> This is the most wrong statement ever.


And yet, it’s true… deal with it!



handz said:


> Good luck to start a career as a photographer with a compact camera nowadays. Or making videos with VHS recorder.


Good way to side track a discussion, but we’re talking about composers here… not photographers or else.


----------



## arcy (Sep 26, 2022)

Libraries don't cost that much, it's proportional to the hard work behind the scenes. But for me, companies should permit the buyer to try (or refund before tot days) or permit license transfer as VSL do. Too often I bought libraries that didn't fit my needs despite what I heard from the demo song seemed good.


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> 10 or 20 years ago, most of the developers we know didn’t even existed back then… So it proves anyone can try and become successful and bring products on the market. So if you think a library is too expensive, make your own that you can sell cheaper… let’s see how that turns out.


I am a developer that works in a different field. But if I were starting out, I would totally do it. Its a lucrative market and smart business move. You don't need to deal with patches and updates on a massive scale. You make the product once - and then you just keep flipping it over and over again for the next 20 years playing around with sales and promo numbers.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Then DO IT! 

Speech is cheap, actions speak volume…


----------



## handz (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> 🤦‍♂️ We’re not talking about Best Service that sell any kind of library, but we’re discussing here about Composer high-end libraries (VSL, Spitfire, OT, etc…). That’s a complete different market from Beatmakers, musicians and such…


😄we not talk about just some samople devs. We talk about pro libraries. And both these big shops sells also pro libraries and they selling them in huge amounts. If you really think 100k people on the whole world is the potential customer base you really need to wake up. Of course the price is the factor. 


Spid said:


> And yet, it’s true… deal with it!


It si not. It’s just a bullshit, deal with it ❤️


Spid said:


> Good way to side track a discussion, but we’re talking about composers here… not photographers or


This is not side tracking. This is same for everything where the quality of output is the most important thing. You can be amazing composer. But when you are using shitty outdated library you are limited and its hard to compete you need decent took to even start.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

You’re delusional… @handz


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 26, 2022)

Futchibon said:


> I think a much more pertinent question is *why do some devs allow reselling but most do not?*
> 
> Those that do offer WAY more value for money, and should be supported IMO.
> 
> ...


They should be able to command higher prices because the resale value of the library is non zero after you download. It doesn’t seem like the economics work that way though.


----------



## Voider (Sep 26, 2022)

handz said:


> And yes, amount of followers on social sites of sample devs or tutorial makers on YT is a good indicator of how many people out there are potentially interested in buying samples.


No it's not, a big chunk of any follower count are abandoned and desinterested accounts. You can verify that on almost every Youtube channel out there, the views numbers will always be dimensions below the subscriber count. Many people hit follow spontaneously and never come back, and others create new accounts and never look into their old ones.

Pewdiepie has 111.000.000 subscribers on Youtube, his latest video has 1,4 million views which means that 110.000.000 out of his 111.000.000 subscribers didn't even notice his new video. If you were going to derive from his 111 million subscribers that he could actually _reach _111 million people anytime he wants, you'd be on a very wrong track.



handz said:


> This is the most wrong statement ever. Good luck to start a career as a photographer with a compact camera nowadays. Or making videos with VHS recorder. No, sadly, to be able to compete you need to start with decent equipment.


Decent doesn't mean _the exact same tools the top tier professionals of the industry are using_.

Why would you buy a camera for $5000 and rent a shooting studio for a weekend for $2500 if you're just starting out and don't even have the experience to handle these tools, that doesn't make any sense.

It's way smarter to buy a decent starter camera for $300-$400 and practice *a lot*. With this equipment you can of course create pictures that could generate revenue, there are enough small businesses looking for let's say social media managers who take pictures and post them for them. A friend of mine is exactly doing that for a bakery specialized in chocolates.

Things like this are the appropiate starting point for a beginner's career. I know, everyone of us would like to start with our first project being to score the next Triple A game or Christopher Nolan's next movie from our $10.000 specifically build music studio with a $20.000 modular synthesizer wall and flashing led lights everywhere, but that's not how it begins. That's something you'll maybe reach at the peak of your career, not at the beginning.



handz said:


> The "just buy something cheap for a start" won't get you anywhere, your results will suck, working will be frustrating and nobody will be amazed with the results, sadly, you always have to get decent gear first.


That isn't true.

Why wouldn't the indie game developer who is able to afford $300 for a small score and doing a low budget game not be amazed with a score that came out of Nucleus Lite ($99)? The samples are taken from the big flagship product and sound absolutely splendid.

Neither does the indie game developer with only a budget of $300 nor do you who's in charge to create a little score for them *need* libraries at the cost usually only triple A publishers would demand. That's out of both of your leagues at this point.



handz said:


> And saying something like "if you cant afford something you don't deserve it" is the most shitty thing to say, seriously.


@Spid didn't say that you don't deserve it if you can't afford it. He said that if you can't afford it, you're not the target audience, here's why:



Voider said:


> If you're scoring a movie and your score needs a lot of risers, falls and crescendos, and you get paid several thousands for that score, then $549 is a rather cheap investment compared to what it would cost you to let an orchestra play and record all of that for you personally.
> 
> If you're a hobbyist who barely uses any risers, falls and crescendos so that you need to ask yourself whether it's worth the price because you "may not use it in every score", why would you plan to buy that library at all?



Because the target audience - in this case composers working in the industry specifically in need for risers, falls and crescendos - can drop $549 on this product within a blink of an eye. It will create value for them, therefore the $549 are not expenses but investments. And this product is targeted and priced at professionals working in the industry.

I think it's a misconception that every library out there must be also targeted at hobbyists just because our computers these days are able to run professional music production tools too.

There are smaller lite products for hobbyists, they're packed with the essential content without all the specific extra stuff a professional need.

You could write whole albums with Nucleus Lite ($99). And if you've done so and your skills in orchestral writing are so well developed that you'd really get a lot more out of your music by utilizing single sections or instruments, then the upgrade to the full version will be way more justifiable for yourself as opposed to your beginner-self who wants to own all the professional expensive tools before it ever produced any EP or album.

Because now you know that you're skilled enough to make (more) money out of it, and suddenly the upgrade becomes rudimentary. But you need (_or should, in my opinion_) learn to walk before you try to run.


----------



## StefanoM (Sep 26, 2022)

depends.

Let me tell you my story.

Since I started working on sample library development, this kind of activity has become more and more a main part of my work at the moment ( I worked for 15 years for FOX and Disney here in Italy, but Disney closed its studios in italy about 3 years ago)

On one library ( I work alone , no Team ) I work every day, including Sundays. On average 9 hours a day. At times of intensive development, even 12 or more hours a day.

On average a library has a development path of at least 6 months, 3 months for major upgrades, in some case it was also 12 months.

Every talents, big studio room for recording, singer, musician, I have to pay him. Or I have to buy the instruments and/or object that I can play or to sampling it.

If I need very advanced scripts that exceed my scripter skills, I have to pay a programmer.

To all this I have to share a 50% with my publisher.

On this 50% I have to pay taxes in my country.

There are situations where maybe the prices are high it is true, others where maybe they are even low.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 26, 2022)

telecode101 said:


> I am a developer that works in a different field. But if I were starting out, I would totally do it. Its a lucrative market and smart business move. You don't need to deal with patches and updates on a massive scale. You make the product once - and then you just keep flipping it over and over again for the next 20 years playing around with sales and promo numbers.


Most libraries sell 90% of the copies it will ever sell at launch…and then it becomes increasingly more and more difficult to sell, no matter how much you lower the price. People want new things, not a 3 year old library.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> To introduce a little math into the thread, say a developer sells a library for $149. But could sell 50% more copies of that Library if they slashed the price 30% permanently.


You just made that up though. Devs have actual numbers backing up their decisions, whether it be costs they need to cover or the results of past sales or the actual sales figures of their own products in different price tiers. You're talking theoretical, and I promise that you're not the first person to get this idea. Trust me, sample devs have been trying exactly what you're saying for decades, and the current landscape is exactly where we wound up



StefanoM said:


> depends.
> 
> Let me tell you my story.
> 
> ...


You happen to sell your products for very low prices, considering the market and the competition!


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> ProjectSAM is one of my favorite developers and I use a lot of the libraries they make all the time, but Symphobia 4: Pandora still cost $549. For a library of risers, falls and crescendos and other specialty sounds you may not use in every score, does that not seem overpriced?
> 
> Would any of you pay $549 today without searching and seeing what comparable libraries are going for?
> 
> I’ve been around wealthy people a lot in my life, and you’d be surprised at how many check price tags quite often and try to haggle prices. Sir Paul McCartney is reportedly famous for penny pinching. And I’m pretty sure it’s not much that he couldn’t afford


A good chunk of It is risers, falls, and crescendos, but there’s a lot more to Pandora than just that.

And there actually aren’t too many libraries out there that encompasses everything Pandora has to offer, probably none. Ark 3 gets kinda close, but it’s still not an apples to apples comparison. You’d have to buy several different libraries to actually achieve what Pandora can do.

So yeah, I can definitely say it is worth the list price, especially if you write a lot of music that the library caters to.


----------



## handz (Sep 26, 2022)

Voider said:


> No it's not, a big chunk of any follower count are abandoned and desinterested accounts. You can verify that on almost every Youtube channel out there, the views numbers will always be dimensions below the subscriber count. Many people hit follow spontaneously and never come back, and others create new accounts and never look into their old ones.
> 
> Pewdiepie has 111.000.000 subscribers on Youtube, his latest video has 1,4 million views which means that 110.000.000 out of his 111.000.000 subscribers didn't even notice his new video. If you were going to derive from his 111 million subscribers that he could actually _reach _111 million people anytime he wants, you'd be on a very wrong track.


Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense, you obviously do not understand how social sites or youtube works. 
This is not about fake or dead accounts or uninterested people. This is about how algorithm show the content to people. I follow hundreds of YT or IG pages, but I see like 10% of them in my feed or maybe less, sometimes I do not see any content from some accounts I follow the whole year. this is the current state of things, Socials are a huge part of my business and I spend tons of time learning about this algorithm crap. The larger you are the least they often show you to followers. This is constantly changing. But when a developer or YT composer doing videos about sample libs gets 100k fans be sure these are mostly real people interested in this niche. and there are probably way more people interested in this. The amount of people you reach with content is not saying anything. On IG currently reach dropped by 80-90% for tons of large accounts, and no, it is not about that people suddenly are not interested in their content, the content is not being shown...


Voider said:


> Decent doesn't mean _the exact same tools the top tier professionals of the industry are using_.
> 
> Why would you buy a camera for $5000 and rent a shooting studio for a weekend for $2500 if you're just starting out and don't even have the experience to handle these tools, that doesn't make any sense.


Of course, but in the sample world, there are not many options as with other more developed and for the masses genres. Pretty much any modern, good library costs around the same - less than it was but still it is not an easy investment. And by starting out I don't mean people with zero experience who just starting from scratch, who never did anything before, you may be already a skilled composer after years of music school, but you need to get samples and software to start working on your own, and you really can't just buy 20 years old lib or some light version sounding like ass and try to compete with people using best on the market. On every good job there are 10 composers in the line, and they will choose the best sounding (or cheapest which sucks hah) 


Voider said:


> It's way smarter to buy a decent starter camera for $300-$400 and practice *a lot*.


 I was a successful commercial photographer here (and I still doing photography / video as part of my work), to this day tons of my friends are photographers. The huge difference here is, that even entry level camera nowadays is capable of taking great photos, but for some kinds of photography you simply need pro grade of equipment, and if you dont have it you will make fool of yourself on the shoot (as your equipment will slow you down or limit you a lot) or you simply cant take the job because you dont have the tools. If you are lucky, you can rent the gear for the shoot of course, but its not always possible. And yeah you can take less paid jobs but shooting less paid jobs costs the same time as a good paid job... 


Voider said:


> Why wouldn't the indie game developer who is able to afford $300 for a small score and doing a low budget game not be amazed with a score that came out of Nucleus Lite ($99)? The samples are taken from the big flagship product and sound absolutely splendid.


Oh great, and how are you going to survive by taking such jobs? There is nothing like cheap music, making 1 hour of music for cheap takes the same time as doing it for a big budget title. Good luck with taking 20 composing jobs a month...


Voider said:


> I think it's a misconception that every library out there must be also targeted at hobbyists just because our computers these days are able to run professional music production tools too.


But this is why this market even exists, if there were not hobbyists, newbies and small project composers we would be 20 years back and libraries would cost 5x more. Beginners and hobbyists are often those who become professionals later. the problem is, there pros and PROS and not all pros getting same kind of payments as PROs...


----------



## Voider (Sep 26, 2022)

handz said:


> Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense, you obviously do not understand how social sites or youtube works.


Uhm, I sell different products on several sites myself and also own a Youtube channel where I present these products, and I am well aware of the numbers and analytics in my different dashboards.



handz said:


> This is not about fake or dead accounts or uninterested people. This is about how algorithm show the content to people. I follow hundreds of YT or IG pages, but I see like 10% of them in my feed or maybe less, sometimes I do not see any content from some accounts I follow the whole year.


It's all of that, not just one or another. This proves my point even more: Deriving how many potential customers a brand possibly has from their subscriber count is not accurately reflecting the reality.

Also you didn't take _conversion rate _into account. That rate for Youtube ads lies at around 1.4% which means that out of 100 people watching your ad, 1 will buy a product. And that's ads specifically with call to action buttons and targeting people who are most likely going to buy a product, the conversion rate for your general followers stumbling across a video of yours and buying a product is even way lower.



handz said:


> you may be already a skilled composer after years of music school, but you need to get samples and software to start working on your own, and you really can't just buy 20 years old lib or some light version sounding like ass and try to compete with people using best on the market.


That's an even better starting position to write great music with inexpensive libraries like Nucleus Lite. If you're skilled you'll have a way easier time to squeeze every inch out of these libraries. Skill beats sample quality by a lot. You (and I) would have a hard time competing against _Nobuo Uematsu_ when he'd only use Kontakt 5 factory library samples versus us with all the OT Ark's combined.



handz said:


> Oh great, and how are you going to survive by taking such jobs? There is nothing like cheap music, making 1 hour of music for cheap takes the same time as doing it for a big budget title. Good luck with taking 20 composing jobs a month...


Nobody said that you should jump all in head first into being a full time composer when you barely have experience with composing music for money. Of course this starts as a side-job and then you can gradually make the part-time shift as the number of your gigs rises.

Secondly, a gig that only pays $300 will only get music for $300, which means that nobody should expect from a composer to work half a year on that soundtrack with 40 tracks for that money. It would most likely be a little EP with 5-10 custom tracks that can be accomplished within a short period of time. Especially if you consider that a lot of game music tracks aren't fully fledged epic tracks but often just underscores for levels and a lot of things that rather run on repetition (_boss fight music for instance_).


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

handz said:


> I was a successful commercial photographer here (and I still doing photography / video as part of my work), to this day tons of my friends are photographers. The huge difference here is, that even entry level camera nowadays is capable of taking great photos, but for some kinds of photography you simply need pro grade of equipment, and if you dont have it you will make fool of yourself on the shoot (as your equipment will slow you down or limit you a lot) or you simply cant take the job because you dont have the tools. If you are lucky, you can rent the gear for the shoot of course, but its not always possible. And yeah you can take less paid jobs but shooting less paid jobs costs the same time as a good paid job...


Nobody cares, we’re talking about composers here, not photographers!



handz said:


> Oh great, and how are you going to survive by taking such jobs?


Oh, so your time and work are valuable, but the time and work of sample libraries developers are not valuable? You don’t even realize you make no sense and have no logic…


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Then DO IT!
> 
> Speech is cheap, actions speak volume…


who me? I don't know how to do it. I am a php and perl programmer. i make an okay living from it and am too lazy to learn something new.


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 26, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> Most libraries sell 90% of the copies it will ever sell at launch…and then it becomes increasingly more and more difficult to sell, no matter how much you lower the price. People want new things, not a 3 year old library.


I guess. i don't know. i keep seeing NI Komplete and IKM Miroslav selling over and over again


----------



## re-peat (Sep 26, 2022)

Sample library development took a turn for the worse, in my opinion, the moment developers started giving in to the cry for cheaper libraries. The consequences are almost all deplorable: the commitment to quality control, product maintenance and serious support has shrunk to less than the absolute minimum, only a small percentage of the libraries that have been released in recent years can be said to be of a truly professional scale, depth and quality, and we’re flooded instead with all these ultra-lite <$100 half-trick-pony products (*) and subscription formulas which fill up users’ hard disks with technically and musically half- or totally impotent product even a strictly-for-fun dilletante gets bored with after only two weeks of usage.

(*) I always think of these things as ‘teaser’ libraries. If I were a developer, I would release such libraries for free as a teaser for the full (and, obviously, fully priced) library. Today however, that full and fully priced version of the library never materializes anymore. And we have to make do with the teaser.

Moreover, those who insist on cheap stuff have meanwhile more or less ruined it for people who want true quality product. This is in fact the biggest problem I have with the miserly cheapskates. The libraries that I (and I’m not alone) would like to see developed (and that I am prepared to pay top dollar for, provided they’re good) aren't and certainly won’t be made anymore, simply because no developer is still prepared to put in the time, work and money to make them. Why would they? If more than a couple of $100 is already considered ‘overpriced’? Who can blame them if they perceive the market for fully priced, pro-level product as almost non-existent?

The trend towards ever cheaper product is also killing off much of the adventurous, passionate, visionary, pioneering, exploratory, goalpost-moving spirit among developers, it seems to me. And that’s a very sad thing. When cheap reigns, people inevitably switch to safe, tried-and-tested formulas and cost-effective routines, they avoid creative (but also more expensive) experimentation and settle for accountant-approved certainties. And then you get all these libraries to which I invariably respond with a long sigh and a listless “Well, it’s another okay-ish one, I suppose.”

If I were to describe what I believe fully answers to the description of an inspired and inspirational, professional sample library, just about every developer reading it would start scratching his/her head and then say: “Sorry, but no. I can no longer justify that kind of project. And if I’m honest, I can’t be bothered either.”

I know of more than one library that didn’t turn out all it could have been ONLY because the developer decided, as a direct result of this widespread cheapening insanity, to cut every corner that could be cut (and even some that couldn’t or shouldn’t be cut) in order to be able to keep the price down. In other words: I can’t buy really good libraries, because the tightwads have seen to it that no developer is willing to make them anymore. (The odd exception notwithstanding, of course.)

Add to that the locking down of sample content in inflexible, pre-wired & pre-scripted, uneditable, moron-proof playback software — among the worst things that has ever happened in the entire history of sample library development, in my opinion —, and here we are: on the brink of the complete pluginalliancification of sample library development. An ever-growing pile of always cheaper but also always less interesting, less exciting, and more disposable re-iterations of stuff we already bought many times over. Again, there are exceptions. But the thing about exceptions is that they are exceptions.

I’m sure there are sides to this issue, as well as various valid considerations of a practical and economical nature, which make it far more complex than I (or anyone who isn’t a developer) can fathom, so I certainy don’t blame developers for where we are today (although I’m not inclined to pat most of them cordially on the back either), but that being said, I can’t help but feel that the difference between where we are today and where we already were 25 years ago, should be a lot bigger than it is.

And I have far less understanding for the “sample libraries are too expensive” multitude. They probably don’t care about any of this — their disinterest is a defining part of their desires — and I doubt they even grasp what the concern expressed above is all about, but the fact is: they make us all poorer. If not directly in a financial sense, then certainly by being a major reason for the devaluation of the art, craft and spirit of library development and the diminishment of choice when it comes to serious, high-quality tools to make music with.

_


----------



## handz (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Nobody cares, we’re talking about composers here, not photographers!
> 
> 
> Oh, so your time and work are valuable, but the time and work of sample libraries developers are not valuable? You don’t even realize you make no sense and have no logic…


Man, you are really trying hard to be a douche, right? Nobody cares about your wild imaginations. This is the same for every profession I tried to explain it in the previous post, if you still don't understand it, it is sad...
WTF are you even talking about, you are trolling or you are not able to understand something so basic like the time of a single person working on a ONE TIME project is something totally different from investing time into a product with unlimited selling potential. 


Voider said:


> Uhm, I sell different products on several sites myself and also own a Youtube channel where I present these products, and I am well aware of the numbers and analytics in my different dashboards.


Ok, nice, but still, you do not know how these things work, your personal analytics means nothing in a larger scope. 


Voider said:


> It's all of that, not just one or another. This proves my point even more: Deriving how many potential customers a brand possibly has from their subscriber count is not accurately reflecting the reality.
> 
> Also you didn't take _conversion rate _into account. That rate for Youtube ads lies at around 1.4% which means that out of 100 people watching your ad, 1 will buy a product. And that's ads specifically with call to action buttons and targeting people who are most likely going to buy a product, the conversion rate for your general followers stumbling across a video of yours and buying a product is even way lower.


It is accurately reflecting reality, unless you were 1) buying fans 2) changed what you sell in meantime. How many REAL fans you have is one of the main things to consider, it shows if there is interest in what you sell among people.
Ads? Why are you talking about ads now? The conversion rate for niche products is of course lower than for T-shirts, but even with 1% you can easily make 40 000 USD a month selling a niche product. The fact most people won't buy your product is often about the price and quality of the product, the price is alpha and omega. And many people here still have the problem with understanding it and constantly defend the pricing of anything, which I find really silly. 


Voider said:


> Secondly, a gig that only pays $300 will only get music for $300, which means that nobody should expect from a composer to work half a year on that soundtrack with 40 tracks for that money. It would most likely be a little EP with 5-10 custom tracks that can be accomplished within a short period of time. Especially if you consider that a lot of game music tracks aren't fully fledged epic tracks but often just underscores for levels and a lot of things that rather run on repetition (_boss fight music for instance_).


Yeah, so you are limiting yourself for doing "300 worth music" because of this. Which is the exact point why it sucks to not have better libraries and software available.


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Also, if one really believes a library/company is too expensive, then what are you waiting for to make yours and be competitive. We’ve seen it many times here on VI-C, composers are not super faithful to a brand, and they don’t hesitate to buy a library from a competitor if the library is good and well priced. 10 or 20 years ago, most of the developers we know didn’t even existed back then… So it proves anyone can try and become successful and bring products on the market. So if you think a library is too expensive, make your own that you can sell cheaper… let’s see how that turns out.


This here wins the "Stupidest Cliche" award.

You don't like your government? Think it's easy to rule the country? Well why don't you start your own political party and see how this turns out?

You go to the restaurant and they serve you shitty food? Oh well Mr Gordon Ramsay, why don't you start your own restaurant and see how this pans out for you?

Your sink breaks, you call for a plumber and he tells you that he can do it for 1000 bucks. What, you think that's insane? Well why don't you work some time as a plumber then Mr Smarty-pants?

There is not a single thing in the world that can't be dismissed and reduced into "Well why don't you. X/Y/Z yourself and see how this turns out"?


----------



## ibanez1 (Sep 26, 2022)

My 2 cents starting out this year as a hobbyist is that it's simply amazing that I can buy a full starter orchestra at $450 through audio imperia with nucleus and start composing very convincing mockups as long as I cater a bit to the samples. If I was more strapped for cash, I could literally use just this library for years with a $60 reaper license and make some amazing music. This is completely excluding all of the high quality free libraries being put out by both library companies and individual contributors.

The doors are wide open for people with a passion for music to create what they want. None of this was available or even close to affordable when I was younger.

There will always be premium prices set by certain library creators and brand, marketing, and uniqueness of the product all affect this. But as others have said, the prices we see are a reflection of expected sales volume combined with cost to create the library. I doubt there is any secret library collusion meet up where everyone on the market is agreeing to inflate the prices. Competition comes into play and every developer lowers to a price they can still stay in business on to attract customers. This pressure increases as new players come on the market to provide the next best all in one string library for example.

If everyone wants the prices to go even lower, attract more hobbyists like me to the pool of customers and we'll see amazing all articulation $30 string libraries in the future .


----------



## Studio E (Sep 26, 2022)

re-peat said:


> “If not directly in a financial sense, then certainly by being a major reason for the devaluation of the art, craft and spirit of library development and the diminishment of choice when it comes to serious, high-quality tools to make music with.”
> 
> _


100% this.


----------



## jblongz (Sep 26, 2022)

zwhita said:


> They are for dumbasses like me who have no compositional skills and basically just collect them. Out of $14,568 spent, I've lost over $6k and will likely never buy another library. I'd agree they are very inexpensive versus the alternative they are meant to substitute.


I feel like this is the best ‘mic drop’ answer. If we use it to make money, then it pays for itself overtime. Otherwise, it’s a collectors item that will be expensive for some.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 26, 2022)

I think a question that may not have been explicitly asked to @SoftSynthLover99 is "Are sample libraries overpriced?" is overpriced compared to what?

Overpriced compared to recording your own orchestra performing your work? Definitely not.
Overpriced compared to hardware synths/physical instruments? Not at all.
Overpriced compared to soft synths? _Mostly_ not.

And really the answer to the question is that it depends.

For example, if I go to BestService and do a search for strings libraries, sorting low to high priced, there are almost 3 pages of libraries under $100. Some more comprehensive than others.

If I look at Areia Lite by Audio Imperia, you get a full string section (with emulated second violins before any jokers try to bring that up ), all equipped with all the bread and butter articulations, including true legato, for $100. It also goes on sale for $79 a few times a year.

Similar story with Hyperion Strings Elements by Soundiron and others.

You can get a full orchestra with Sonuscore's The Orchestra Essentials or Nucleus Lite at $99 as well.

Are any of these overpriced? I highly doubt any reasonable person would say they are.

At the $149 tier, you can get a full orchestra with Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra or Miroslav Philarmonik SE, or you can get a full chamber strings library with Light and Sound Chamber Strings.

Are these overpriced?

What level of content in your mind is a "fair" price and at what price point? What is your baseline you are using to establish that value to price ratio? Is it an existing library or series of libraries? Is it gut feel? Can it be quantified?


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

jblongz said:


> I feel like this is the best ‘mic drop’ answer. If we use it to make money, then it pays for itself overtime. Otherwise, it’s a collectors item that will be expensive for some.


Hint the whole difference between an investment by a professional and a purchase by a hobbyist… but some people here have really hard time to even comprehend this very basic notion. All I see here is people complaining because they can’t afford something they want… when in fact music as a whole has never been so affordable and accessible to anyone. Probably some Gen Z whiners that don’t know any better but whining…


----------



## Mike Greene (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> In reply to the MODERATOR NOTE on my original post:
> 
> ... I do feel it’s wrong for a moderator to try and force people to “ignore” the thread. That feels like censorship. ...


The thread's still going and I haven't deleted anyone's posts, nor have I tried to "force" anything on anyone. So "censorship" might not be the word you're looking for. 

The reason I left the Moderator Note on your opening post was that this was a perfect opportunity that I've been waiting for. Truly, I've been waiting almost a year for this chance. You see, there have been a number of threads that keep going and going, some of which are of no interest to most people, yet there they are, at the top of our Latest Posts feeds every morning. Ugh.

Do most of us really want to keep seeing pages and pages of guesses for Spitfire's newest release? Or 8dio's price slashing megathreads? Or that endless Cinesamples thread with no actual information in it? Probably not. In fact, we have threads devoted to the topic of how annoying some people find those threads.

Given that many people _don't_ know about the Ignore Thread feature, I've been looking for a high-visibility opportunity to highlight it. That opportunity is more difficult than you might think.

After all, I can't exactly post a suggestion about the Ignore Thread feature in a Spitfire/8dio/Cinesamples thread, right? That would be interpreted as me attacking a competitor. Can't do that, because I'm not the kind of guy who would ever use the forum for my own benefit. For instance, I would never use my admin position to suggest anyone buy our excellent Realitone libraries, like the ground-breaking Sunset Strings with its innovative 2-Layer system (voted best Strings Library of 2021 by Sample Library Review!), or our Nightfall Hybrid Strings library, which revolutionizes film scoring, as you can see in this video. No, I would never stoop to such a thing.

So I can't post about the Ignore Thread option in a commercial thread. And it would be useless to do it in the Synthesizer V thread, since although it's very long and always in our Latest Posts feed, only a dozen or so people are still reading it, so no one would actually see my suggestion. (Plus it's a cool thread, so I wouldn't want to do that there anyway.)

_This_ thread, on the other hand ... it hits all the checkboxes for "golden opportunity."
*First*, it's silly. At least as posed in the opening post.
*Second*, because of the title, it's guaranteed to get a ton of views, so lots of people will see my advice. It's essentially a Super Bowl ad for the Ignore Thread feature.
*Third*, the timing. I caught this thread early, so I made my edit to that first post quickly, plus you posted on a Sunday, so almost no one read your opening post before I amended it. So I got maximum eyeballs on it. Golden opportunity!

I do feel a little bad that you're _sort of_ a victim here, but as I said, the thread still stands and no posts are deleted. More importantly, though, this is a particularly low quality thread, at least as posed in your opening post (no offense), so the number of people clicking the thread and then regretting that click is exceedingly high. So ... I guess I don't feel _that_ bad. Channeling Mr. Spock, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and not to blow my own horn, but since I adopted that philosophy, I think it's helped the forum.



X-Bassist said:


> You may be unaware that the moderator could be the websites owner who is a Sample Developer. Therefore saying sample libraries are too expensive is an offense to him thus the sample libraries should be $20 comment, which of course you never said. (I agree there should be the ignore moderator comment button Lol). But what are you gonna do when there’s a 500 pound gorilla in the room.


I love this, because it points to a general cluelessness we sometimes see. 

I should clarify, though, that my Ignore Thread addition wasn't motivated by this being a topic suggesting people like me should lower our prices. Besides, with Nightfall being pre-release priced at only $99 for customers who already own Sunset Strings (shouldn't any serious composer _already_ own Sunset Strings? Of course they should!), then how much lower can I go???

Ahem ... sorry. Anyway, it's no skin off my nose if people want to complain about pricing. People complain all the time about housing prices, but it hasn't affected the value of my house. Complainers gonna complain, buyers gonna buy. A thread like this, even if everyone agreed with the OP, will have zero effect on Realitone sales. People can wish or complain all they like, but Sunset Strings will still cost what Sunset Strings costs (on sale right now for just $199!), so it's a real world decision, not a hypothetical one.



Vik said:


> IMO the topic is interesting, and I agree that some libraries are overpriced. The topic should be interesting for developers as well.


Certainly! But not as it’s framed in this thread, where the opening premise is so ungrounded that it’s essentially just clickbait, and I suspect most people who've posted are already sorry they did.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

StefanoM said:


> depends.
> 
> Let me tell you my story.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your perspective Stefano. The way you price your libraries has always been reasonable, and the quality of your sampling work in my opinion is as high as it gets. I have yet to find a library that does what Ethera Gold 2.5 can do for any price. Modern Scoring Synth is also a favorite of mine although it is a hungry CPU eater lol (even on my M1 Max MacBook Pro). 

Do you feel like your libraries are priced too low? Curious to know why you don't sell your libraries at a higher price point, and if by selling at reasonable prices, you feel like you are losing out on revenue? 

Cheers!


----------



## SupremeFist (Sep 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> But the sales have plummeted . My latest production is No2 in the UK chart. But it's a long way away from making any money. The first album I did with this band recouped it's entire budget by midday the first day it went on sale. That was in 93. Things are very very different.


Congratulations — it's my favourite of theirs since 96! 🤘🏻


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Certainly! But not as it’s framed in this thread, where the opening premise is so far from reality that it’s essentially just clickbait.


The opening premise – was that the thing about 5 libraries for 1500 being too expensive? Or was it the thing with selling sample libraries between $29-$99 (or $149)? 

IMO, 1500 for 5 libraries doesn't sound bad at all, if I need all of them. But a) in such cases, they should IMO be sold one by one, and the moment the user had paid 1500, he should be able to download all of them, and b) if no libraries should cost more than 149, that would eliminate all the most complete and most 'deep sampled' out there – and that's usually the ones I want. Creating a brilliant orcehstral library takes an extreme amount of work and money. 

Besides, many of us rarely want all the libraries in such package. Fra sellers, maybe it doesn't matter much what we buy if we buy something for 1500 – maybe they just want offer a 'special price for you' if they buy for a large enough amount in which case the 8dio solution or something similar would be is quite good. 

For the records, I would much rather have bought one very expensive string librariy, if that package was really good, over several different string libraries, so one could say that I'm 'pro expensive libraries', as long as there's a way for all of us to be able to buy them. That's why I think we need modular, BML style payment – just more modular.

I haven't checked how Orchestral Tool's modular shopping works yet, but if modular buying ends up too expensive, it won't appeal that much to those who can't (or won't/don't need) buy the full libraries. 

The above also applies to buing real instruments, of course. 48th street in NYC would be en deep trouble if you had to buy an ukulele and banjo if you wanted a guitar, if you weren't allowed to sell it again, or if you only got a good discount if you bought 5 guitars a a time!


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 26, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> _This_ thread, on the other hand ... it hits all the checkboxes for "golden opportunity."
> *First*, it's silly. At least as posed in the opening post.


And that's where you (looking at the massive post count) are wrong, and are seemingly viewing this from a developers point of view (protecting the pricing, which is normal from that point of view. At times things might crosswire a bit: moderator/owner of a forum and developer at the same time. Also that is normal in these situations.).
Also stating it's silly, from a moderators perspective is a rather odd thing to do, since it's ultimately up to the posters if it is silly or not by the discussion emerging (or lack of). Or in other words: if it where actually silly, the thread would have died out of it's own rather quickly, don't you think?

Since it doesn't break the rule, i see no reason to interfere.
I disagree on the thoughts you had/have, for that ultimate oppertunity you've been waiting for in this case. If people are hindered by seeing a thread appearing when new posts are added, they should learn how to use a forum. (one of the mods has already provided a manual how to do this: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/how-to-ignore-threads-attach-images-and-other-tips.83797/ )


----------



## Sarah Mancuso (Sep 26, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> Or in other words: if it where actually silly, the thread would have died out of it's own rather quickly, don't you think?


In my experience, that is generally the exact opposite of how that goes.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 26, 2022)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> In my experience, that is generally the exact opposite of how that goes.


than it's utlimately not silly enough. And even if it's silly, people enjoy it enough to post here, which is also keep people coming back to the forum (vic) and visit other threads (or start one).
so i see still no reason to interfere, from a mod perpsective.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

@Vik Actually, one of the business model that would actually be good for large expensive bundle would be the splice model. If you never checked it, they have 3rd party plugins they sell, you can buy them as a rent-to-own model. As long as you keep paying, you have access to everything; if you pause your payment, you loose access to your plugin (like a subscription model), except that you can resume your payment and once you reach the overall total price, you receive a perpetual license.

So imagine getting a $1500 lib bundle in a 15x $100 plan. But to do that, you need your own plugin to control activation/deactivation (like subscription plan)… so it wouldn’t work with Kontakt libraries. It would also solve the issue of paying for a library you don’t like after testing it for a month. You would only loose 1 month payment and you could cancel it right away. That’s how I tried the Korg Collection 3, OPSix and Wavestate… all from Splice website.


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> it wouldn’t work with Kontakt libraries


I think I've heard about that solution, but does it work with the SF player, Synchron, Musio, Sine, Soundpaint, SF Labs and the other sample players?


----------



## Vik (Sep 26, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I think a question that may not have been explicitly asked to @SoftSynthLover99 is "Are sample libraries overpriced?" is overpriced compared to what?
> 
> Overpriced compared to recording your own orchestra performing your work? Definitely not.
> Overpriced compared to hardware synths/physical instruments? Not at all.
> Overpriced compared to soft synths? _Mostly_ not.


In general, I guess that term usually refers to unreasonably pricey.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Also, if one really believes a library/company is too expensive, then what are you waiting for to make yours and be competitive. We’ve seen it many times here on VI-C, composers are not super faithful to a brand, and they don’t hesitate to buy a library from a competitor if the library is good and well priced. 10 or 20 years ago, most of the developers we know didn’t even existed back then… So it proves anyone can try and become successful and bring products on the market. So if you think a library is too expensive, make your own that you can sell cheaper… let’s see how that turns out.


Bro, can't afford heart surgery? Just open your own hospital and learn to do it yourself lol — is the endpoint of that logic.

They literally give some of these things away for free on Easter deals or regularly discount them by as much as 50% or more, or offer you access to their entire product line for $30 a month, on libraries that would've cost thousands of dollars to make and are maybe 4 years old at the oldest and this is despite all the whining about piracy. 

_They would not do that if it were not still profitable at that price point_. They would not do that if it was actually "worth" whatever number they charge and that is the thing that, in a sane and honest society, would be the end of this entire discussion, but there are all sorts of consooomers and apologists who do all these mental gymnastics to try and say that a library you can get for $300 every 3 months isn't overpriced at its regular price tag of $800 or whatever, or that dropping at least a quarter of the average person in even wealthy 1st-world countries' monthly wages on an online course that would have next-to-zero overhead isn't elitist.

It's all just so damn silly and these companies laugh at you people all the way to the bank as they can charge you up to double of what most people will pay, and you sit and watch or maybe even partake in some of these sales yourselves and still think you aren't getting fleeced.

People talk about "taking candy from a baby", but toddlers will actually put up a hell of a fight to defend their candy.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 26, 2022)

kociol21 said:


> It's not eye opening, because it's not true. These two are fake similarities, they are nothing alike.
> 
> Going that way, we can say - if you have a text editor, you can write best-selling novel by yourself OR you can hire best-selling author to write one sentence for you. Therefor, text editors should cost thousands.
> 
> ...


With respect, you are looking at it from a hobbyist's perspective not a working composer's perspective.

A recording session is not a "personalized recording" for the composer to keep. It is the *production phase *of fulfilling a contract to a client. And likewise a sample library is not a "Generic product" it is a *tool* for producing music for clients or for music pre-production (like @Daniel James has said a few times, the price of a library is really "can I use this to make more money than it cost me?" ).

Before sample libraries the working composer had _no option & no choice_ but live recording. For _every step_ of music creation. That means if you're even *pitching* for a TV show you might go and record an orchestral suite spending thousands at the *composer's expense*.

People in this thread are completely outta line not understanding how cheap music production has become. That's a good thing. It has democratized music (a process which isn't over yet).

What you guys don't understand is when you a buy a sample library the *real life expenses *of a recording session have still taken place. They have just become the up front expense a developer pays before they sell Copy #1 of their library. All of the risk is on the shoulders of these devs. There are plenty of libraries out there that, IMO, have so little discussion about them that it seems likely they sold less than the developer anticipated.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Bro, can't afford heart surgery? Just open your own hospital and learn to do it yourself lol — is the endpoint of that logic.


Dude, do you really compare a heart surgery with a sample library? You’re really close to win the Godwin’s law today… keep tryin’, you’re almost there!

Time to check with my dentist, I heard he would get me some nice Spitfire Originals…


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 26, 2022)

I have to add one thing here. I kinda agree with both parties so whatever. Also I am first to admit, I am salty, because I am poor and can't afford all the shinies I want.

Also lots of really dumb arguments from both sides like "30 years ago was even worse, so now it's good". Well yeah, and 1000 years ago you wouldn't even write anything because you would die of plague in infancy so what.

Now - the one thing to add. "Too expensive" is hard to pinpoint. But if you want to sell super premium library for 1000$AT, go for it, but damn at THE VERY LEAST make it comfortable and premium to use too. That means no asshole design elicensers and/or iloks, no shitty "No-resell-actually-if-you-beg-enough-you-can-sell-it-but-pay-us-like-50-bucks-because-why-not" policies. No "you can only install it two times, and you can download it one time only, if you drive fails, too bad, guess what - pay us 20$ lol. Just... don't. If you are charging this much money just make it good product with seamles user experience and no on-the-verge-of-breaking-consumer-rights eulas.

That's it, now I'm good with this thread.

Edit:

@NoamL

As I said, this isn't argument that speaks to me. I'm terribly sorry for what I'll say but this to me is "old man talk".

"You kids have no rights to complain about expensive healthcare. Back in my day I had to go by foot 30 kilometers through the woods to see a medicine man.

Yeah, so what. We live here now. We are discussing today's problems with today's context. For someone that was born say in 2000, what matter is "Back in 1980 we had worse?".

And I'm not arguing that it was worse. It was, objectively. Now it's so much easier, also objectively. It's just this is also one of these arguments that can be used to dismiss anything, "You have no rights to complain becasue there were times when it was worse".

I agree with your statement about professional vs hobbyist, of course. Like I said, I am a pure hobbyist that won't ever make a penny with composing, and from poor region of poor country to add to that so say purely subjectively, to me - most libraries are expensive as fuck  Even hobbyist from rich country can view this differently, let alone professional composer.


----------



## robcs (Sep 26, 2022)

The OP's whole argument seems to hinge on the idea that libraries should be priced the same way that music tracks are. Where to even start...

I'll stick with the music production industry comparison, but I'm not going to argue the economic case, as that argument has been made several times in this thread and it shouldn't be in question.

Let's go to something even more fundamental.

The whole opening premise was wrong, comparing VSTs to music tracks.

A track is what a band produces. For us composers, the equivalent would be a cue or a track NOT the libraries we use to produce it.

So, the correct comparison would be to look at the pricing of, say guitars, drumkits, mics, mixers and everything else that goes into a band being able to create a track or an album.

Yes, the track gets sold for $1.29, but the lead guitarist doesn't bleat that therefore their Fender should only cost $47.

What happens instead? Some players buy pro-grade instruments and pay thousands, others decide they can't afford that and spend a few hundred on a student instrument. A third group (and 90% of VI-C users can relate to this), are hobbyist players who nevertheless choose to pay $'000s for a pro instrument because they believe (rightly or wrongly - and it's more about the player than the instrument) that it will make them sound better. But it's a choice.

No one is forcing us to pay $600 for a library. If we can't afford that, there are libraries at $250, $100, $50, and even free. But we choose the more expensive options because we assume we won't be able to create the same standard of music with the cheaper libraries.

And instrumentalists are just the same

I play cornet and trumpet. I started, more years ago than I care to admit, on a pretty awful student instrument that cost GBP 80 (second-hand). It was all I could afford at the time. When I got to university (for something completely unrelated to music), I wanted to carry on playing in amateur bands, so I took the opportunity to upgrade to an intermediate instrument (mistake!) that cost (I think) GBP 400 - it was at the top end of what I could afford at the time, and because I wasn't a pro, I decided it wasn't worth spending more. I played that for more than 10 years before I stepped away from music altogether for many years.

When I got back into playing a few years ago, I decided to take lessons. I took my intermediate cornet into my first lesson, and the teacher pointed out that, while it was decent enough, if I was serious and wanted to progress, I was going to need something better. So I went out and paid CAD3,000 for a pro-level trumpet. Why? Because I could afford it and I wanted to make the best sound I was capable of. Did I ever expect to make that money back? No, it was a hobby. As it happens, it's one I've now found a way to monetize by going semi-pro (and having a better instrument was what actually made that possible!), but I'm unlikely to ever break even because I keep giving in to GAS and buying more instruments!

If you're a hobbyist, all instruments that aren't free are "expensive" because you don't have a way to monetize them. If you're semi-pro, you have a choice whether to make do with the gear you can break even with (knowing what fees, if any, you'll be able to charge for what you do) or invest in pro-grade gear either because it makes you feel better about what you're doing, you get joy from using better gear, or you see it as a stepping stone to the next stage of your music career, where that standard of gear will be appropriate.

Ask golfers how they feel about the prices of their gear. Or painters. Or any other field that can be both a hobby and a profession. If you're a hobbyist buying pro-level gear, it's your choice, but don't expect the manufacturer to drop their prices just so you can feel better about having pro-level gear.

And guess what. If they did drop the price, their gear would no longer be considered pro, and the 'real' pros would be looking for something more expensive to invest in, in order to stand out from all the 'weekend warriors.'

So, does the "but tracks sell for a standard $1.29" argument not apply to us at all? Absolutely it does: to the music we produce, not to how we produce it. We get the same piss-poor royalties from libraries and streaming services that bands do, and film directors and game companies push for ever-lower fees just like the live venues bands have to negotiate with.

And, just like the bands, we have to decide whether that's a game we want to play, or we hang up our keyboards and find something cheaper to do with our time.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

kociol21 said:


> For someone that was born say in 2000


To me, that says it all we need to know…


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> To me, that says it all we need to know…


Why? FYI I am from 1983, so that makes me what - late GenX/early millenial? I was just making a point for younger folks because I'm seemingly not already in the "Get off my lawn you damn kids" mentality, as you seem to be


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Meh… Millenial whiner vs Gen Z whiner… just about that same. Kiddos that want everything for free without even understanding the value of work. There’s no winner when everyone race to the bottom… _“why stop at $199, maybe $149, or even better $99… why so much? Let’s go for $49… oh wait, even better $29… why stop there then? Let’s go for $9.99 for the whole VSL/OT/Spitfire catalog… Damn, $9.99? That’s 10 bucks too expensive!”_


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Meh… Millenial whiner vs Gen Z whiner… just about that same. Kiddos that want everything for free without even understanding the value of work. There’s no winner when everyone race to the bottom… _“why stop at $199, maybe $149, or even better $99… why so much? Let’s go for $49… oh wait, even better $29… why stop there then? Let’s go for $9.99 for the whole VSL/OT/Spitfire catalog… Damn, $9.99? That’s 10 bucks too expensive!”_


Ok, fine fine grandpa


----------



## lettucehat (Sep 26, 2022)

Yeah let's add another dimension of stupid to this thread with generational stereotypes as old as time itself.


----------



## Lambchops (Sep 26, 2022)

I bought @aaronventure’s Infinity bundle the other day.
Cost me around £500 with the EDU discount.
It’s a truly amazing piece of software which very obviously took a huge amount of effort, planning, time, talent, skill and also all the time it took to develop and hone such talent and skill, without which the product wouldn’t exist.
Used it today on a track for which I’ll be paid £200. Couple more like that and the software will have more than paid for itself.
Without the cost of the software package, Mr Venture may not be able to justify keeping working on updates, let alone releasing them for no charge for users.
I’m very very happy to have bought the software for that price.
There’s money well spent on professional products and there’s money wasted on cheap stuff that is cheaply made and underinvested in.
I’ve been a full time professional musician for 30 years and have learned the hard way that false economies don’t work.


----------



## StefanoM (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Thanks for sharing your perspective Stefano. The way you price your libraries has always been reasonable, and the quality of your sampling work in my opinion is as high as it gets. I have yet to find a library that does what Ethera Gold 2.5 can do for any price. Modern Scoring Synth is also a favorite of mine although it is a hungry CPU eater lol (even on my M1 Max MacBook Pro).
> 
> Do you feel like your libraries are priced too low? Curious to know why you don't sell your libraries at a higher price point, and if by selling at reasonable prices, you feel like you are losing out on revenue?
> 
> Cheers!


Hi,

About Elements MSS ...set Kontakt in Multi Core it is important, on PC on a modern i7 and i9 not problem at all.

I think my libraries could be sold at a slightly higher price. Why don't I do that? Because I thought that this way I would fight piracy. But I was wrong. Now I can't go back. Because I think I have accustomed my users to this price range. If tomorrow the next Ethera Gold Atlantis 2 or Elements Cinematic Rhythms cost 199 euros, it would be bad news for them.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> Dude, do you really compare a heart surgery with a sample library? You’re really close to win the Godwin’s law today… keep tryin’, you’re almost there!
> 
> Time to check with my dentist, I heard he would get me some nice Spitfire Originals…


Yeah, "just make your own" is a ridiculous argument, boomer.

Most people don't have the resources to "just make their own" sample library or whatever, any more than they do to build their own vital infrastructure genius. So your argument fails, but you seem to struggle to recognize shared logic between your absurd argument and those downstream from it.

But hey, I notice you didn't say anything else about what I said because you can't actually argue it. Just like how, after handz successfully kicked the ball through the goalpost of that other guy on your side's post about cameras, you come in with "wut this half to do with photographers?"



Spid said:


> Meh… Millenial whiner vs Gen Z whiner… just about that same. Kiddos that want everything for free without even understanding the value of work. There’s no winner when everyone race to the bottom… _“why stop at $199, maybe $149, or even better $99… why so much? Let’s go for $49… oh wait, even better $29… why stop there then? Let’s go for $9.99 for the whole VSL/OT/Spitfire catalog… Damn, $9.99? That’s 10 bucks too expensive!”_


>Kids these days want everything 4 free; don't know work
>Bought house working single income at McDonald's in '70s
>Whines if don't get pension and senior's discount at Denny's


----------



## Roger Newton (Sep 26, 2022)

kociol21 said:


> Why? FYI I am from 1983, so that makes me what


Approximately 39.


----------



## ibanez1 (Sep 26, 2022)

We could try a fun exercise. For anyone who is really frustrated with the cost of sample libraries, pick the prime example of a library they feel is too expensive today and pick a price they feel it should be instead.

1. Try to ballpark the recording cost, musician cost, venue cost, programming cost, overhead to run the company, marketing, store front maintenance, and digital distribution in both fixed and recurring amount.
2. Try to ballpark the expected volume of sales for that library.
3. Calculate the library price from steps 1 and 2 accounting for the fact that the company wants to make some reasonable amount of profit (don't just set library price to cover the cost of creating it)

Where did your estimate fall between desired and actual?

You could probably even use publicly posted financials from some of these companies.


----------



## Voider (Sep 26, 2022)

handz said:


> Ok, nice, but still, you do not know how these things work, your personal analytics means nothing in a larger scope.


Oh don't worry, I actually do know how these things work. You may speak for yourself.



handz said:


> It is accurately reflecting reality, unless you were 1) buying fans 2) changed what you sell in meantime.


It isn't, for the reasons I and others already have pointed out. I even gave you a practical example. Pewdiepie didn't buy fans and he also didn't change the kind of content he does. Still, 110.000.000 out of his 111.000.000 subscribers haven't seen his latest video. So your equation of subscriber count = potential customers doesn't work.

Active subscribers = potential customers is the correct equation.



handz said:


> Yeah, so you are limiting yourself for doing "300 worth music" because of this. Which is the exact point why it sucks to not have better libraries and software available.


You're making problems up that don't exist. As a matter of fact, if you haven't yet scored a single game or show or movie and therefore can't afford a $600 library because you just buy it for yourself, you simply don't need to look for gigs above the entry level. Because you don't have the experience for it.

If you however start to gather experience, you don't need to have a $600 library, because you will do projects that don't require it. After your first projects that brought you money and experience, when you're ready to reach the next level in terms of bigger and better paid projects, buying those $600 libraries won't be a problem anymore because now it's an investment. It's really as simple as it gets.

So no, this isn't about limiting yourself. It's about acting according to your level of professionalism.

Nobody hires a beginner composer for their triple A project who's never composed more than 3 minutes of music in a row and moans all day about how his career didn't take off because he couldn't afford expensive top tier libraries.


----------



## ansthenia (Sep 26, 2022)

*Peeks into thread*

....lol, bye.


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 26, 2022)

Interesting thread. Yes I do think software and libraries are over priced. Just as I think good quality electric guitars are over priced too. But so what? You would only know that if you were a person who was buying brand new US made Fenders for $200 back in the day and you now see them going for > $2000.

Re: software libraries and plugins and effects. If you actually use them and use them to their fullest potential -- then it's not over priced. It's a tool for your hobby you invest in and it pays itself off if you use it. It's really no different than the first drill or circular saw you got. The first one was probably cheap. But if you determine you use it a lot and often, the next time you buy one -- you will buy a better one because you learned how to use it and you realized that the quality upgrade is worth it to you.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 26, 2022)

ibanez1 said:


> We could try a fun exercise. For anyone who is really frustrated with the cost of sample libraries, pick the prime example of a library they feel is too expensive today and pick a price they feel it should be instead.


Hollywood orchestra opus edition.

Regular 1000 USD. It should be 400. 







I feel it should be this price because 400 is a LOT more affordable than 1000 USD and East West is obviously capable of selling it at this lower price and still remain a top sample library developer 30 years on.


----------



## Voider (Sep 26, 2022)

ansthenia said:


> *Peeks into thread*
> 
> ....lol, bye.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 26, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Hollywood orchestra opus edition.
> 
> Regular 1000 USD. It should be 400.
> 
> ...


But... it is 400$. The screenshot you sent shows that it is priced at 400$. East West does sell it for 400$ They've sold it for even 340$ and potentially below before as well.

Edit: I get what you mean though, but wording wise it makes the discussion a little difficult. Having issues with the sale policies is a totally different beast than just pricing. Everyone buys libraries at sale price, so it's really only fair to judge if something is "overpriced" at the "sale" price (a.k.a. the real price).


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Yeah, "just make your own" is a ridiculous argument, boomer.


You clearly missed the whole argument since one was arguing that making sample libraries was a very lucrative and easy business, that’s why I argued about making your own to prove the world you can make it, and even make it cheaper. But again, it requires some comprehension to even get that… Now I fully get that kids like you can’t comprehend the notion of work and value. Enough said



Chris Schmidt said:


> But hey, I notice you didn't say anything else about what I said because you can't actually argue it.



No, they’re just too stupid to even argue about it.



Chris Schmidt said:


> Just like how, after handz successfully kicked the ball through the goalpost of that other guy on your side's post about cameras, you come in with "wut this half to do with photographers?"



Oh yeah, like arguing about cameras on a sample libraries thread is a proper argument?! 
LOL… talk about moving the goalpost over and over, just enough to sidetrack a thread. 

Keep being delusional kiddo…


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

@Mike Greene I guess it’s also a good thread to remind people they can use the ‘ignore’ feature on some annoying posters.


----------



## novaburst (Sep 26, 2022)

telecode101 said:


> Re: software libraries and plugins and effects. If you actually use them and use them to their fullest potential -- then it's not over priced.


This, 

Library, software, plugins can bring a lot of satisfaction, and do over and above than what we paid for them i think this will always remain a fact and then comes some very good sales, and then Black Friday, and then more bargains, and then you wish you had waited to get it cheaper, 

Maybe we could say are Sample library's under-priced.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 26, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Hollywood orchestra opus edition.
> 
> Regular 1000 USD. It should be 400.
> 
> ...


If they lowered the retail price to $400, people would just wait until it was on sale for $200-$300.

There is an element of retail at play here that extends to the online shop world. Everyone still wants "a deal."

Read up on JC Penny's foray into sensible every day pricing with modest sales to see how big of a disaster that was for the company.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 26, 2022)

Oh… I remember, in the old, old days… we paid 1,500 just for violins! Then again, they would come in beautiful, big boxes.


----------



## Polkasound (Sep 26, 2022)

The OP's opinions are difficult for me to take seriously because they're entirely one sided — from the perspective of the consumer. As consumers, of course we'd all like to receive more for less. Who wouldn't? But to publicly propose such an idea without a lick of experience from the manufacturer/supplier side of the equation doesn't even warrant discourse. That's what makes this thread so bizarre.

It's cute when a 3rd grader says, _"We should take all the garbage from landfills, put them on big rocket ships, and blast them off into the sun!"_ but when an adult proposes the same idea, it's going to elicit a very different reaction:






I'm not suggesting the OP is a child or uneducated, but based on his comments and math examples, I think it would do him a world of service to take a course in economics or spend a few years owning/operating a business. At the very least, just helping his kids run a lemonade stand for a month would give him a much needed perspective. Until then, I can't take this thread seriously enough to write one more word in it.


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 26, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> The OP's opinions are difficult for me to take seriously because they're entirely one sided — from the perspective of the consumer. As consumers, of course we'd all like to receive more for less. Who wouldn't? But to publicly propose such an idea without a lick of experience from the manufacturer/supplier side of the equation doesn't even warrant discourse. That's what makes this thread so bizarre.
> 
> It's cute when a 3rd grader says, _"We should take all the garbage from landfills, put them on big rocket ships, and blast them off into the sun!"_ but when an adult proposes the same idea, it's going to elicit a very different reaction:
> 
> ...


As an accountant, I second this.


----------



## Spid (Sep 26, 2022)

Just to prove that sample libraries aren’t actually too expensive, I’m gonna take a complete different take, which is the pro view (since even hobbyists now want to have the same tools as pros).

If you watch this video of Harry Gregson-Williams (around 10:00):


He mentioned that back in the day, to have the same setup as Hans Zimmer, he needed to buy 27 Roland S760 with 32MB extension. And to do that, Hans co-signed his $100k loan.

$100,000 in 1990 = $226,000 today.

Now, imagine the kind of setup you could get with $226k, that would be A LOT of computers and sample libraries, and yes, you would have a setup that could do the same level of music as HZ (or any other composer of your choice).

Actually, just for fun, I could have a setup with $20-25k computers (for 1 main + 3 or 4 VEP Slaves) and then another $30-35k for sample libraries to cover some of the most popular ones we often see in discussion here on VI-C… That would be only $50-60k… like one forth of what you needed to pay to get the 27 Roland S760 like HZ (not even mentioning the samples).

Not mentioning how much better the result is today… if you can’t make a good music with $30k worth of sample libraries, I would suggest to just find another job. 

It clearly shows that music and sample libraries are becoming more and more affordable. One could even argues that we slowly getting into the hobby price range with a pro quality. It’s not rare to see people spending $30k into their hobby (boat, motorcycle, shooting, traveling, golfing, racetrack car, you name it).

The main thing is that computers are getting cheap regarding the power they deliver, so now virtually anyone can have a computer that is way more powerful than the 27x 32MB of the S760… now everyone can have a DAW that would run all shiny sample libraries… but just because they can, doesn’t mean you NEED them. And if you really want them, then it’s no different than spending money in any other hobby. So even for Hobbyist, it’s actually more affordable today than it ever was.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

@Polkasound So I guess Stefano from Zero-G sample libraries has no clue what he’s saying either? He did agree some libraries are overpriced, and he’s a sample library developer (and a pretty good one at that).

I usually ignore post like yours because you don’t actually have an argument against the topic, you resort to name calling or claiming someone is uneducated, as if that proves a point? It’s ridiculous smh.

I’m not a sample library developer, why should I have to be to raise a valid question as a user of sample libraries?

Next time you order food at a restaurant and you don’t like it and notify the staff, I hope the waiter/waitress tells you “we’ll go back there and cook it yourself if you don’t like it”. Maybe then you (and others who keep saying things like that) will see just how ridiculous that argument is.


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> *<MODERATOR NOTE> *_This is pretty silly thread (or rather, one side of it is), so it's a good opportunity to point out that we have an "Ignore Thread" option, so it will no longer clutter your Latest Posts feed. It's just above this post, to the right.
> 
> To be clear, people are welcome to their opinions that libraries should be $20 or whatever. It's just that this thread is already exremely active (and in many people's opinion, extremely annoying) that it's a good opportunity to mention the Ignore Thread option, since depending on your tasted in topics, you may have other threads that keep showing up in your Latest Posts feed, but that you're completely uninterested in._
> 
> ...


Totally agreed. But then you will have to wait 10 years between each release because the developer won't have enough money to pay staff or marketing and is likely to go out of business during the period because they aren't making a livable wage to support their own families. But hey, who cares about them if you get a deal on libraries. 

If my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough, I will spell it out- this is the most inane post I've ever read.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> Totally agreed. But then you will have to wait 10 years between each release because the developer won't have enough money to pay staff or marketing and is likely to go out of business during the period because they aren't making a livable wage to support their own families. But hey, who cares about them if you get a deal on libraries.
> 
> If my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough, I will spell it out- this is the most inane post I've ever read.


That’s a ridiculous emotional argument. So many great developers already sell libraries for great prices. And guess what? They are still in business and have been for ages.

Why do you think some developers go subscription? Why do they do 50% off or more flash sales? Wouldn’t selling for those low prices mean they can no longer feed their families? Wouldn’t that mean they can’t pay employees and make a liveable wage like you suggest?

So what you should do, instead of buying libraries during Black Friday or 50% off sales, you pay the full asking price for all the libraries you want to purchase. That way you remain morally consistent with your comments. Deal?


----------



## dcoscina (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> That’s a ridiculous emotional argument. So many great developers already sell libraries for great prices. And guess what? They are still in business and have been for ages.
> 
> Why do you think some developers go subscription? Why do they do 50% off or more flash sales? Wouldn’t selling for those low prices mean they can no longer feed their families? Wouldn’t that mean they can’t pay employees and make a liveable wage like you suggest?
> 
> So what you should do, instead of buying libraries during Black Friday or 50% off sales, you pay the full asking price for all the libraries you want to purchase. That way you remain morally consistent with your comments. Deal?


I don’t think you understand that not every developer has the capital or market presence of Spitfire or East West. 

And I’ve bought many libraries at full price since I’ve been at this for several decades.


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> making your own to prove the world you can make it, and even make it cheaper.


Well, there are people that make cheap libraries. But you still need the muscle of a large corporation with lots of marketing power to overcome the little market.









Vintage Drum Samples


Vintage Drum Samples For Kontakt




vintagedrumsamples.gumroad.com


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 26, 2022)

As a hobbyist, I can wait for a sale. I am not in a hurry to buy. Most of these developers make their libraries for pro users. A pro will pay full price if they need it because they know it will make back the money they spend in just one job normally. Or it will speed their workflow. But they also don't buy stuff they don't see a use for. The sales/discounts/freebies are mostly for us hobbyists who can't be bothered to pay full price for a library. But we are also not generally going to make their money back for them. 

Also, some libraries are easy to make. One or two guys in a studio can do it. Others require maybe a hundred people including techs, producers, instrumentalists, plus the costs of the location (which is not cheap), rented equipment, somebody to guard the rented equipment, etc... And that is just the recording. Then there is the days and days of going through samples, cutting them, processing them, cleaning them up, trying to catch all the errors, etc.... Next is building the instrument. It can be a lot of work. 

And I really doubt the sell a million of most of these libraries. Maybe EW's Hollywood Orchestra. But that is 10+ years old? The Opus Engine is new, but most of the samples are old. But good. 

And? Very few developers are rich. Many do make enough to live comfortably, but most of those also do something else in the music business and the libraries are a side gig for them. The one and dones who never have a sale on their products are the ones I usually question as to how are they still in business.


----------



## Chris S (Sep 26, 2022)

I don't think there's an objectively true answer to this question. Sample libraries may be overpriced for some, but not for others...


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> I don’t think you understand that not every developer has the capital or market presence of Spitfire or East West.
> 
> And I’ve bought many libraries at full price since I’ve been at this for several decades.


I’ve purchased many libraries at full price as well, and of course small developers don’t have the same presence or capital as east west or Spitfire. Who the heck is arguing that? Not me.

You actually prove my point for me here, smaller developers who don’t have as much market presence & capital as spitfire or east west can still make a sustainable company if the libraries are good. They can pay employees, release high quality libraries at great prices without sacrificing the well being of themselves or family. Not to say they don’t have struggles along the way, but it’s doable which is why you see many new companies making great libraries for awesome prices and thriving.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 26, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I think a question that may not have been explicitly asked to @SoftSynthLover99 is "Are sample libraries overpriced?" is overpriced compared to what?
> 
> Overpriced compared to recording your own orchestra performing your work? Definitely not.
> Overpriced compared to hardware synths/physical instruments? Not at all.
> ...


As one of the few people not flaming you, @SoftSynthLover99, the least you could do is answer my questions.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 26, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> As one of the few people not flaming you, @SoftSynthLover99, the least you could do is answer my questions.


Oops it's probably quite a few post I've missed 

To answer to your question as best I can (it's getting late over here in the US) you are asking are sample libraries overpriced & compared to what do I say they are overpriced?

I don't believe ALL sample libraries are overpriced just to clarify, I've quoted a few developers in previous post who make great libraries at great prices.

To answer the question "overpriced compared to what?", I don't think that's the right question to ask, but I will give it a shot anyway. 

I would say some sample libraries are overpriced for what they offer, and in comparison to other sample libraries of the same style. 

Symphobia 1 is $329, oldie but good string library.
Cinematic Studio Strings is $399, a highly regarded string library (I personally find it just ok). 
Tokyo Scoring Strings is $449, not worth that price to me, as I was very underwhelmed after purchase. (but not a bad library by any means).
Berlin Strings by Orchestral Tools is $840 at the basic level. Have no experience here. 
BBC Symphony Orchestra Core by Spitfire is $449. Very solid library. 

Is Berlin Strings $391 better than the BBC Symphony Orchestra by Spitfire? Is Berlin Strings $441 better than Cinematic Studio Strings? These are the kind of questions everyone avoids when talking about how libraries are priced. 

Do you think the Dune soundtrack is better than the soundtrack for The Dark Knight Rises? Unsure? Well, you'll be paying the same price (plus or minus a few dollars) to find that out. 

Long day of studio sessions for me, so I don't have the mental energy to attempt to go into any more detail than that at the moment, it's all I got for ya right now! 

Cheers


----------



## Reznov981 (Sep 26, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> N


I know I'm being lame and maybe ruining the joke, but can somebody please explain the N thing? I've seen it a few places and I want to be in on the cool, funny secret joke. Ty


----------



## ShidoStrife (Sep 26, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I would say some sample libraries are overpriced for what they offer, and in comparison to other sample libraries of the same style.
> 
> Symphobia 1 is $329, oldie but good string library.
> Cinematic Studio Strings is $399, a highly regarded string library (I personally find it just ok).
> ...


While "better" is subjective, you can at least compare things that are comparable, i.e specs.

Berlin Strings has a lot more articulations than CSS. More articulations = more studio time + more editing + more scripting headache = higher price.
OT do offer the Inspire series that's more comparable to Symphobia, similar price too.

TSS offers something very specific and niche, it's the first (and so far only) of its kind. Smaller market + no competitor = higher price.

BBCSO core doesn't have a lot of articulations and only has one mix, no mic positions. It's cheaper, but you sacrifice flexibility there. You want more flexibility? The pro version is $999.

All these libraries are imho, appropriately priced. While I do wish I could afford Berlin series myself, it's not overpriced. I'm the poor one 🤣


----------



## Mike Greene (Sep 26, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> I know I'm being lame and maybe ruining the joke, but can somebody please explain the N thing? I've seen it a few places and I want to be in on the cool, funny secret joke. Ty


Here you go:





N


n




vi-control.net





At the risk of over-explaining, Rey started a thread, changed his mind, then rather than delete (he probably didn't know how), he edited the post and thread title to "n", thinking people would then ignore it. Which usually works, but it sure didn't this time!

So in the interest of more helpful hints besides the Ignore Thread trick, you _can_ delete your own thread. (As long as there are no responses. Then you can't.) It's at the upper right, by the Ignore Thread option.


----------



## Reznov981 (Sep 26, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm having a good laugh
This is quality
Thanks Mike; you're a legend


----------



## holywilly (Sep 26, 2022)

Every piece of musical equipment, both software and hardware is an investment of tools when making music for living. Expensive or not is depending on the budget, no one started off with full set of VSL or OT libraries, that’s an expensive investment for starters. 

After working for over a decade, those high profile libraries become not so expensive. Need or want is what should be focused.


----------



## ZTYAAA (Sep 26, 2022)

I think it depends on how much sample libraries you have。
If you have a lot of sample libraries and some of them can be replaced with each other, the value will naturally decrease.
My English is limited and I can only make simple expositions.


----------



## Lord Daknight (Sep 26, 2022)

ShidoStrife said:


> TSS offers something very specific and niche, it's the first (and so far only) of its kind. Smaller market + no competitor = higher price.


TSS' lookahead mode makes it absolutely worth it for me, but the thing about it being niche is true. For example you have OT first chairs Violin for €84 with slurred and porta Legato because violins are popular but then SFXwizard octobass is $99 and that has no Legato, just RRs and what I think is some kind of IR system. Still worth it for me whose style needs that sound.


----------



## OHjorth (Sep 27, 2022)

Maybe looking at revenues will help people decide in this matter? Do they make "too much" money?

Revenues

I picked OT as an example at random and some of the competition is listed a bit further down. I take absolutely zero responsibility when it comes to the accuracy of these numbers. They might be completely off. Not even the year is stated so read with trailers full of salt.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 27, 2022)

OHjorth said:


> Maybe looking at revenues will help people decide in this matter? Do they make "too much" money?
> 
> Revenues
> 
> I picked OT as an example at random and some of the competition is listed a bit further down. I take absolutely zero responsibility when it comes to the accuracy of these numbers. They might be completely off. Not even the year is stated so read with trailers full of salt.


Those are perfectly believable numbers.

I'm sure a revenue of 3 million is underpaid, though.


----------



## Lord Daknight (Sep 27, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> I'm sure a revenue of 3 million is underpaid, though.


3 mil Revenue, not Profit


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 27, 2022)

Lord Daknight said:


> 3 mil Revenue, not Profit


Yeah, I'm sure they have millions in expenses lol


----------



## Iskra (Sep 27, 2022)

Aside from all the arguments exposed in this thread, just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Obviously from an economical viewpoint, each developer knows their numbers, so they are of course free to price their products as they see fit. There are arguments on favor of lower price-possible higher sales and the opposite, but this nails down to how each one want to run their business, and I don't think we are entitled to any opinion about it, we just vote with our wallet: at any price point, if we as customers decide that the product is worth it, we'll buy; if not, we won't. I think it is as simple as that. 
I bought libraries that were high priced, so saved my money, waited for black friday or similar, and just bought them if I saw they will add something to me, my music, my sound or my workflow. Just like I would do with an expensive shirt or whatever.

The other thing that is missing from the original post, imho, is that libraries are tools, not strictly products or content to consume as a song on itunes or an album are. As tools to build content (or art, call it whatever you like), they are more similar to brushes, or hammers and equipment to build furniture. Making the analogy of libraries and itunes' songs is misleading. It will be similar as demanding the film cameras to sell for 100 bucks because you can have all content for a fixed fee on Netflix. The photo camera analogy or golf gear are spot on. For hobbyist like myself this is just that, a hobby, and hobbies can be expensive (way more than sample libraries, in fact). Hobbies gets as expensive as you can afford.

Also, I don't think racing to the bottom ever had any positive thing for the makers, to be honest. For customers is great to have spotify and itunes, but just ask any musician if this technological change have been good for them or not. Not saying that it was perfect before (it wasn't), but there's no such thing as a free meal. As was stated above, a company developing libraries at 49 with a few articulations or very niche target is more unlikely to develop a 500€ library. And one thing you can be pretty sure about libraries, in my experience, is that you're better off with 2-3 'pro' libraries than with 100 small/niche/half-cooked libraries. Of course, YMMV.


----------



## Lord Daknight (Sep 27, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Yeah, I'm sure they have millions in expenses lol


Absolutely, you know how long recording takes? How expensive to hire players for that long? To script it all together? Some libraries have tens of thousands of samples! That all has to be recorded manually. Then there's tax. Then there's advertising. Divide what's left between 7 employees, and if it's inclusive of a big name like JXL then royalties.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Yeah, I'm sure they have millions in expenses lol


With 7 employees at Berlin salaries, yeah they do. And taxes, rent, overseas representation, advertising etc… and this is assuming the cost of developing has already been deducted from the revenue, which I don’t think it has. I’m honestly surprised they are still in business.


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I would say some sample libraries are overpriced for what they offer, and in comparison to other sample libraries of the same style.



Then don’t buy them.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Is Berlin Strings $391 better than the BBC Symphony Orchestra by Spitfire?


To me, without any doubt… but again, if one thinks it’s not worth it, then s/he can just not buy it and therefore vote with her/his wallet. As simple as that…


----------



## Kony (Sep 27, 2022)

Iskra said:


> Aside from all the arguments exposed in this thread


You mean there's more than two answers to this question?


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 27, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> With 7 employees at Berlin salaries, yeah they do. And taxes, rent, overseas representation, advertising etc… and this is assuming the cost of developing has already been deducted from the revenue, which I don’t think it has. I’m honestly surprised they are still in business.


lmao ok


----------



## ShidoStrife (Sep 27, 2022)

Lord Daknight said:


> TSS' lookahead mode makes it absolutely worth it for me, but the thing about it being niche is true. For example you have OT first chairs Violin for €84 with slurred and porta Legato because violins are popular but then SFXwizard octobass is $99 and that has no Legato, just RRs and what I think is some kind of IR system. Still worth it for me whose style needs that sound.


That's true! I totally forgot about the lookahead mode.

AFAIK, another library that has it is LASS, and that's even more expensive.


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 27, 2022)

Iskra said:


> and hobbies can be expensive (way more than sample libraries, in fact). Hobbies gets as expensive as you can afford.


Yup. There are a lot more expensive hobbies than music. Motorbikes. Rebuilding old vintage cars. $50k to $100K per year easy. 



Iskra said:


> racing to the bottom ever had any positive thing for the makers, to be honest.


I like the Valhalla DSP business model best. The product is great quality, the price is fair and it what it is and never changes. They don't play discount game and and just make the products.


----------



## Greeno (Sep 27, 2022)

yes, sample libraries ARE overpriced


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 27, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Yeah, I'm sure they have millions in expenses lol


Absolutely.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

Lord Daknight said:


> 3 mil Revenue, not Profit





Chris Schmidt said:


> Yeah, I'm sure they have millions in expenses lol





thesteelydane said:


> With 7 employees at Berlin salaries, yeah they do. And taxes, rent, overseas representation, advertising etc… and this is assuming the cost of developing has already been deducted from the revenue, which I don’t think it has. I’m honestly surprised they are still in business.





Chris Schmidt said:


> lmao ok


The company who runs Orchestral Tools is _ot distribution gmbh & co kg_ from Germany, at least the statement of financial positions from their annual reportings are avaiable publicly at Northdata.

Looking at their balance sheet total, from 2018 until 2022, they increased it from 1.140.833€ to 1.496.507€.

It took them 4 years to raise their total capital by 354.000€ which is a yearly profit of 88.500€.
But only on average, according to the data they even suffered losses from 2019 to 2020.


----------



## AudioLoco (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I usually ignore post like yours because you don’t actually have an argument against the topic


I want to reiterate you just compared yourself to oppressed minorities (or slavery it wasn't clear) 
on this very thread because you can't afford a certain type of product to make some fu..g music.
It goes beyond sad victimism and having or not having arguments... 

I honestly don't know why I'm still reading, and writing, on this thread, maybe because it feels surrealistic and out of this world, who knows.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> The company who runs Orchestral Tools is _ot distribution gmbh & co kg_ from Germany, at least the statement of financial positions from their annual reportings are avaiable publicly at Northdata.
> 
> Looking at their balance sheet total, from 2018 until 2022, they increased it from 1.140.833€ to 1.496.507€.
> 
> ...


Yeah that’s about what I was expecting their actual profit to be. Even if they made several more millions in profit, it’s not for anyone to say they “should” lower their prices, they can run their business any way they like, charge whatever they like and everyone here can decide if their prices are worth it for them. I really don’t understand some of the sentiments expressed by a few members of this thread “look, this company is making money, why don’t they lower their prices so I can afford it”. I may be an old fart, but to me it comes of as entitlement.

On a side note, it’s been my personal experience that no matter how low you price your products, someone will complain that they are too expensive. But then reducing the price further doesn’t lead to any increased sales, in fact the opposite. Heck, I even get abusive emails when I release a free product, because it requires the full version of Kontakt. You just can’t make everybody happy, so I think my next library will cost one million dollars. And I shall call it “N”.


----------



## Michel Simons (Sep 27, 2022)

If there is one thing that I am going to take away from this thread then it is that I still have to check out Nightfall.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> I really don’t understand some of the sentiments expressed by a few members of this thread “look, this company is making money, why don’t they lower their prices so I can afford it”. I may be an old fart, but to me it comes of as entitlement.


The truth is also that making sale pricings the default pricings will hurt the business, because people then will still wait and expect sales. It would lead to full price buyers paying less and sale periods being way lower in profit. This has been stated by a couple of users in this thread, someone even shared a story about a company and its worse experience with that, but the people here who are convinced that libraries would be overpriced seem not to be interested in noticing these arguments.

I've heard the argument of possible "_infinite sales because it's digital without any reproduction costs_" many times. Yet people who make that claim fail to understand that the market for these products *is* finite. And that means that there must be a certain profit margin for each sale period before you've delivered your product to the majority of your finite customers and sales start to decline.

But even if that'd not be the case I also share the view that anyone can and should be able to charge whatever they think their product is worth, who are we to judge from the distance without knowing anything about the blood and sweat behind the curtains to tell anyone how they should run their business. And then the market makes the decision whether its interested or not. It's not like there's only one big company having a monopoly on VSTs, there are so many of them in all price segments. Besides sales, special offerings like cheaper _lite versions_ or the ability to buy only what you need for fewer money (Sine by OT) make these things easily accessible even for people on a lower budget.

I can get the Metropolis Ark choir only if I want it with Sine for what.. 50, 100 bucks? Audio Imperia delivered Nucleus Lite for 99€ to me, huge bang for my buck. A year later I've upgraded to the full version for 199€ in a winter sale. I didn't even need the full version before, because I had enough to learn in the first year with what _lite_ already offered.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> I want to reiterate you just compared yourself to oppressed minorities (or slavery it wasn't clear)
> on this very thread because you can't afford a certain type of product to make some fu..g music.
> It goes beyond sad victimism and having or not having arguments...
> 
> I honestly don't know why I'm still reading, and writing, on this thread, maybe because it feels surrealistic and out of this world, who knows.


No, I didn’t smh. I was responding to a comment made about “entitlement”, and only gave a real world example to point out that entitlement in itself is not always a bad thing to have.

Just because someone ask a question, or wants to dig a little deeper into a topic like this, does not mean they can’t afford certain libraries. I personally have the luxury of affording pretty much any library I want at any given time because my work in music pays very well, however to assume everyone is that fortunate is illogical.

Wondering if some sample libraries are overpriced, or wondering if better pricing strategies are possible seems “out of this world“ to you, I would say try to be a little more open minded to change and new ideas?


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

Regardless if one believes a price is too expensive or not, in a free market the developers can still set the price they want, and the market will decide if the decision was good or not. That’s actually not more complicated than that. 

Every other debate, talking about numbers without even knowing the whole situation of a developer is just pure mental masturbation… completely useless. Spend your money wisely, on products listed at a price that seem fair to you, by a company you want to support… if you don’t, then don’t buy it. It’s not like there’s no choice out there. Stop having this victimhood mentality believing you’re entitled to everything you want your way…. That’s not how the world works!


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> The truth is also that making sale pricings the default pricings will hurt the business, because people then will still wait and expect sales. It would lead to full price buyers paying less and sale periods being way lower in profit.


I disagree. Spectrasonics never has sales at all, and are one of the leading companies when it comes to software instruments. Are they expensive? Sure. But they are upfront about pricing and everyone knows if you want to buy Omnisphere, it’s $479 everywhere you look (unless you buy second hand then you get a NFR license). Companies could definitely lower prices, let it be known “we are not participating in sales, this is how we are pricing our library from now into the future” and in my opinion, reach more customers.

Soundpaint is another example. It’s clear as day at the head of the website “libraries never on sale”. So when I feel the need to buy a Soundpaint library, I just buy it without thinking “oh wait on Black Friday it’s 50% cheaper!”

I hope really soon the EXTRAVAGANZA FLASH SALE 3 DAYS LEFT crap disappears from the industry altogether. Spectrasonics, Valhalla DSP and Soundpaint are proof endless sales are not needed to have a successful company.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Wondering if some sample libraries are overpriced, or wondering if better pricing strategies are possible seems “out of this world“ to you, I would say try to be a little more open minded to change and new ideas?



"wondering" about things is generally fine, though that would imply you're yet to reach a conclusion.
I certainly haven't gotten that impression so far.

This is unfortunately one of those "out of control carousel" threads. Round and round it goes, with no signs of slowing down. Some folk are stuck on it, while the crowd watches from a safe distance, waiting for somebody to fly off the handles.

Dang but I can't resist this...


SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Soundpaint is another example. It’s clear as day at the head of the website “libraries never on sale”. So when I feel the need to buy a Soundpaint library, I just buy it without thinking “oh wait on Black Friday it’s 50% cheaper!”
> 
> I hope really soon the EXTRAVAGANZA FLASH SALE 3 DAYS LEFT crap disappears from the industry altogether. Spectrasonics, Valhalla DSP and Soundpaint are proof endless sales are not needed to have a successful company.


Is that the same soundpaint that sent me a 15% off coupon in an email in the last couple weeks?
The same soundpaint that was funded by years worth of flash sale extravaganzas?

God damnit now I'm on the carousel too!


----------



## lettucehat (Sep 27, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> The same soundpaint that is run by the same people currently having 2-day flash sale extravaganzas with their _other_ company?


lol how are 8dio's sales any kind of 'gotcha' at all, the whole point of SP's pricing strategy is to get away from that (monumental 15% coupons notwithstanding)


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 27, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> "wondering" about things is generally fine, though that would imply you're yet to reach a conclusion.
> I certainly haven't gotten that impression so far.


Exactly. All I'm getting from the OP is sense of entitlement.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I disagree. Spectrasonics never has sales at all, and are one of the leading companies when it comes to software instruments.


Leading company of software instruments? In what parallel universe? They're mainly known for Omnisphere which almost nobody talked about anymore after 2019, they're right now having a total of 4 outdated products listed on their website.

Native Instruments is a leading company when it comes to software instruments, but Spectrasonics for sure isn't.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> But they are upfront about pricing and everyone knows if you want to buy Omnisphere, it’s $479 everywhere you look (unless you buy second hand then you get a NFR license). Companies could definitely lower prices, let it be known “we are not participating in sales, this is how we are pricing our library from now into the future” and in my opinion, reach more customers.


Spectrasonic is not even closely involved in producing as many new libraries in parallel like OT, Spitfire, VSL and others. You're comparing a company that sits on their 10 year old products and just enjoys the profit with companies who release several libraries a year.

And yeah, you added "and in my opinion". But your opinion is a product of your fantasy and nothing that you back up with evidence which shows that a company actually *would* reach more customers if they stopped to run sales. Yet you present it in a manner as if it would be a fact or something you'd actually _know_ and your claim would be totally legit.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Companies could definitely lower prices


See here ^

There are dozens of economic analytics out there that clearly show the positive impact of sales for businesses. Sales have a very different target audience than the core customers who would purchase a product in a wide range of any given price because they feel loyal to a company.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Sep 27, 2022)

lettucehat said:


> lol how are 8dio's sales any kind of 'gotcha' at all, the whole point of SP's pricing strategy is to get away from that (monumental 15% coupons notwithstanding)


Because this quote here: "... Soundpaint are proof endless sales are not needed to have a successful company." is made moot by the fact it's a company literally founded by years worth of endless sales by 8dio.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Spectrasonics never has sales at all, and are one of the leading companies when it comes to software instruments.


And how many products have they released in the past 10 years? Based on what you're telling everyone here, they _should _be deeply discounted since they technically have no overheard from new products.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> "wondering" about things is generally fine, though that would imply you're yet to reach a conclusion.
> I certainly haven't gotten that impression so far.
> 
> This is unfortunately one of those "out of control carousel" threads. Round and round it goes, with no signs of slowing down. Some folk are stuck on it, while the crowd watches from a safe distance, waiting for somebody to fly off the handles.
> ...


If I had already reached a definitive conclusion, the thread title wouldn’t end with a question mark 

I agree with you on Soundpaint partially. Sending customers who have signed up to your website a 15% coupon is “technically” not a sale (although maybe bordering on the same logic). But they are a new company and sending people a 15% appreciation coupon is not the same as timed continuous sales every year. Now if they do this often enough, I may be a bit more hesitant to put them in the category with Valhalla and Spectrasonics who really don’t have any kind of sale ever.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> Native Instruments is a leading company when it comes to software instruments, but *Spectrasonics for sure isn't.*


Yeah, in which parallel universe? Omnisphere is featured in nearly every movie and tv shows scores. And I'm not even talking about recent Pop productions.


----------



## lettucehat (Sep 27, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Because this quote here: "... Soundpaint are proof endless sales are not needed to have a successful company." is made moot by the fact it's a company literally founded by years worth of endless sales by 8dio.


you made reference to the fact they're currently having flash sale extravaganzas every other day, like it somehow disproved that Soundpaint is taking a totally different approach. now you're adding the part about how SP was built on the foundation laid by 8dio and its years of constant sales (correct obviously). though i agree that SP isn't proof of anything just yet.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

Mr Greg G said:


> Yeah, in which parallel universe? Omnisphere is featured in nearly every movie and tv shows scores. And I'm not even talking about recent Pop productions.


Having your product featured in a lot of productions makes your product _popular, _it doesn't mean your company suddenly becomes one of the first leaders in software instruments if your company couldn't care less to produce anything new within 10 years and has only 4 old products in its catalogue.

Also, out of interest, do you have any source for this claim?


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> And how many products have they released in the past 10 years? Based on what you're telling everyone here, they _should _be deeply discounted since they technically have no overheard from new products.


They released Keyscape which was definitely a game changer for piano/keyboard libraries. Several huge updates to Omnisphere that most companies would consider a brand new product, 4 Sonic Extensions for Omnisphere which are brand new instruments that sound really good, major updates to Trilian as well, so quite a lot of releases and high quality maintenance updates from spectrasonics the past 10 years. 

And I respect spectrasonics for that, because they are upfront about pricing and although expensive they are honest in my experience with them. 



Jeremy Spencer said:


> Exactly. All I'm getting from the OP is sense of entitlement.


You’ve made up in your mind already who I am based on the topic I created, nothing I say can change your view in my experience dealing with people like you. So think of me as you wish, it says a lot more about you than it does about me however. 

Cheers!


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> Leading company of software instruments? In what parallel universe? They're mainly known for Omnisphere which almost nobody talked about anymore after 2019, they're right now having a total of 4 outdated products listed on their website.
> 
> Native Instruments is a leading company when it comes to software instruments, but Spectrasonics for sure isn't.
> 
> ...


You do know I said “one of” the leading software instrument companies right? I have yet to work with a producer, songwriter or composer that didn’t use at least one spectrasonics instrument in the studio. And I think the fact they are still so popular with a smaller catalog, speaks volumes to the quality of the instruments they have on offer. And the fact that they do all of this without sales only reinforces the point, you don’t really need timed yearly sales to be a profitable company.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Because this quote here: "... Soundpaint are proof endless sales are not needed to have a successful company." is made moot by the fact it's a company literally founded by years worth of endless sales by 8dio.


I like how you conveniently skipped over the Spectrasonics part of the conversation, who I also mentioned as a company that shows you don’t need endless sales to have a successful company. Instead you chose to cherry pick something that fit your narrative and draw your conclusion that way. Pretty dishonest if you ask me!


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> Having your product featured in a lot of productions makes your product _popular, _it doesn't mean your company suddenly becomes one of the first leaders in software instruments if your company couldn't care less to produce anything new within 10 years and has only 4 old products in its catalogue.
> 
> Also, out of interest, do you have any source for this claim?


Billie Ellish did win A Grammy for the new Bond theme song from “No Time To Die“ recently. And her brother Finneas has talked about using Keyscape and Omnisphere on literally everything they do including that track. Quick google search should prove helpful to you.


----------



## Getsumen (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> You do know I said “one of” the leading software instrument companies right? I have yet to work with a producer, songwriter or composer that didn’t use at least one spectrasonics instrument in the studio. And I think the fact they are still so popular with a smaller catalog, speaks volumes to the quality of the instruments they have on offer. And the fact that they do all of this without sales only reinforces the point, you don’t really need timed yearly sales to be a profitable company.


The Spectrasonics business model is quite different than orchestral instruments. They can afford to release a few products because their products stay relevant. They will always have sales.

An orchestral sample library will lose value incredibly quickly. After a few months of release, you will never get anywhere near those sales again. Sales are done to entice consistent sales after. It's a different product compared to Spectrasonics stuff.

There's a reason why no devs have a no-sale policy for _orchestral_ sample libraries. OT was sort of trying it for a while but even they caved and are now doing sales. The idea that you can have no sales to be successful is a weird one. If this was the case and it was better, why wouldn't developers for sample libraries do it? It makes them more money after all

There's also the fact that releasing new products for sample libraries is much more expensive than creating something for Spectrasonics. Renting a studio and players and the sheer manual labor required to sample edit and script are expensive. Spectrasonics by in large has less competition and less costs. It releases fewer products that are cheaper to make to a larger market and a more consistent buying market with less competition. In contrast to sample libraries, if you put out a string library you need to make sure it can outcompete the other 254 string libraries already out on the market.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> You do know I said “one of” the leading software instrument companies right?


Have you looked at all the updates, upgrades, new products, sonic extensions, innovations and everything else Native Instruments has produced in the past 10 years? How come that you view Spectrasonics in the same league?



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> And I think the fact they are still so popular with a smaller catalog, speaks volumes to the quality of the instruments they have on offer.


Sure, but your point wasn't "_Spectrasonic does deliver high quality products!_". Your point was "_Spectrasonic doesn't run sales and still does well, so other companies also don't need to!_".

You didn't reply with a source that backs up your claim, you didn't show examples of VST companies who stopped running sales and suddenly made an extra fortune, or at least did as well as before with sales. You also didn't explain why a company who didn't develop any new product in the past 8 years should be compared to companies who release several new products a year and have way higher expenses.

Instead, and that's something I noticed you're doing frequently, is that you abstract the topic to something else, in this case suddenly the _quality_ of Spectrasonic's products.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> And the fact that they do all of this without sales only reinforces the point, you don’t really need timed yearly sales to be a profitable company.


If you don't create new products and don't drive innovation - yes. Unfortunatley none of the big software instrument developers you find overpriced falls under this category, so it doesn't reinforce your point.


----------



## Polkasound (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> So I guess Stefano from Zero-G sample libraries has no clue what he’s saying either? He did agree some libraries are overpriced, and he’s a sample library developer (and a pretty good one at that).


I'm not dismissing every individual post in this thread — I'm dismissing the thread as a whole because it was started by a person who thinks the costs to cover expensively-produced, high-end libraries should not be passed on to customers, and a 30% lower retail price will double sales. Which leads to this point...




SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I’m not a sample library developer, why should I have to be to raise a valid question as a user of sample libraries?


You're entitled to your opinions, and I respect your right to voice them, but I simply can't take them seriously because it's glaringly obvious you have no experience other than that of a consumer who, like every other consumer on the planet, wants more for less.

If you were a developer with experience in hiring musicians, hiring scripters, hiring graphic designers, booking studios, renting equipment, advertising, VI market analysis, sales, etc. and you posted an editorial on today's library prices based on all that experience, you'd have a captive audience. But when your only experience in landscaping is looking at pretty trees and flowers, you can't go into a landscaping forum, start dispensing expertise about how the landscaping business needs to change, and expect anyone to take you seriously.




SoftSynthLover99 said:


> ...you don’t actually have an argument against the topic, you resort to name calling or claiming someone is uneducated...


I specifically said I was NOT suggesting you were uneducated, nor did I call you a name. I was only suggesting you were ignorant in the area of business economics. [And I don't mean that in a condescending way because no human on the planet knows everything about everything. We're all knowledgeable about some topics and ignorant in others.]




SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Next time you order food at a restaurant and you don’t like it and notify the staff, I hope the waiter/waitress tells you “we’ll go back there and cook it yourself if you don’t like it”.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Billie Ellish did win A Grammy for the new Bond theme song from “No Time To Die“ recently. And her brother Finneas has talked about using Keyscape and Omnisphere on literally everything they do including that track. Quick google search should prove helpful to you.


Ah all right, Billie Eilish and her brother are using Keyscape and Omnisphere, and that proves that Omnisphere gets featured on "_almost any TV show and movie out there". _Now that's what I call a source! Dumb me, how could I not find that out in a quick google search.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> The truth is also that making sale pricings the default pricings will hurt the business, because people then will still wait and expect sales


I tried to balance that by having what I consider very reasonable full prices for the quality and innovation, but I still only sell when I have sales. Very difficult situation to get out of without going bankrupt.


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

The main reason Omnisphere has been a good success is because it's a plugin that aim at all kind of musicians, from beat makers, to songwriters and composers... try to aim at the same audience with orchestral sample libraries, good luck!


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 27, 2022)

Spid said:


> Regardless if one believes a price is too expensive or not, in a free market the developers can still set the price they want, and the market will decide if the decision was good or not. That’s actually not more complicated than that.
> 
> Every other debate, talking about numbers without even knowing the whole situation of a developer is just pure mental masturbation… completely useless. Spend your money wisely, on products listed at a price that seem fair to you, by a company you want to support… if you don’t, then don’t buy it. It’s not like there’s no choice out there. Stop having this victimhood mentality believing you’re entitled to everything you want your way…. That’s not how the world works!


Yeah. It doesn't work that way. What is "wise" is highly derivative of the generation the person is speaking from. Without even getting in the old discussions and debates about "are apple products too expensive"? 

You have yet to enter that stage in life where your have that serious discussion with your teenage kid about are $1,000 collectable sneakers off of Goat that you will buy and try to keep in a plastic wrapper too expensive a purchase in this lifetime.


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

telecode101 said:


> Yeah. It doesn't work that way.


Actually it does, it's called free market... deal with it!


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> Have you looked at all the updates, upgrades, new products, sonic extensions, innovations and everything else Native Instruments has produced in the past 10 years? How come that you view Spectrasonics in the same league?


You are confusing new and shiny releases with relevance. Spectrasonics is relevant and used by countless composers across every imaginable genre you can think of, because they have quality products. Native Instruments are also widely used and popular, for that same reason. More products don't mean you have a better company.



Voider said:


> You didn't reply with a source that backs up your claim, you didn't show examples of VST companies who stopped running sales and suddenly made an extra fortune, or at least did as well as before with sales. You also didn't explain why a company who didn't develop any new product in the past 8 years should be compared to companies who release several new products a year and have way higher expenses.


Is Spectrasonics not a company who is thriving without any kind of sales? Come on man don't be disingenuous. That's not true regarding product releases either. Spectrasonics released multiple new Sonic Extensions for Omnisphere around 10-11 months ago. Those are brand new instruments. And I'm pretty sure the new Omnisphere 2.8 update with the flow capture technology cost a lot of time and resources to implement, which came out last week.



Voider said:


> Instead, and that's something I noticed you're doing frequently, is that you abstract the topic to something else, in this case suddenly the _quality_ of Spectrasonic's products.
> 
> 
> If you don't create new products and don't drive innovation - yes. Unfortunatley none of the big software instrument developers you find overpriced falls under this category, so it doesn't reinforce your point.


Again, spectrasonics have been creating new products and improving existing ones quite frequently. And if your current products are still way ahead of the competition and still innovative, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. They just implemented the new "Flow Capture" which is pretty innovative and I don't know any other libraries that have such a feature. But I guess that's not innovative enough for you?



Voider said:


> Ah all right, Billie Eilish and her brother are using Keyscape and Omnisphere, and that proves that Omnisphere gets featured on "_almost any TV show and movie out there". _Now that's what I call a source! Dumb me, how could I not find that out in a quick google search.


What do you want, someone to collect hundreds of google links and post them here? C'mon man. It's no secret that Omnisphere is used on countless records, movies and TV shows. Maybe you hold a grudge against spectrasonics or something I have no clue what you're getting at lol.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> Having your product featured in a lot of productions makes your product _popular, _it doesn't mean your company suddenly becomes one of the first leaders in software instruments if your company couldn't care less to produce anything new within 10 years and has only 4 old products in its catalogue.
> 
> Also, out of interest, do you have any source for this claim?


Sorry what? If your product is _very_ popular, it definitely makes you one of the leading VST synth companies.

Regarding your question... you must be new here, right? Or maybe you're not paying attention to movie scores or pop productions, and that's ok. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

What's funny is that the OP kept saying sample libraries should be cheaper, like $99-149 cheap, but then he has no problem with a company like Spectrasonics that sell Omnisphere close to $500... 

It just proves that the price by itself isn't the issue, it's up to everyone to estimate if a product is worth its price tag, regardless if it's a $10 or a $990 plugin/library.


----------



## lettucehat (Sep 27, 2022)

Spid said:


> Actually it does, it's called free market... deal with it!


He just agreed with you that that's not how the world works, silly.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> I'm not dismissing every individual post in this thread — I'm dismissing the thread as a whole because it was started by a person who thinks the costs to cover expensively-produced, high-end libraries should not be passed on to customers, and a 30% lower retail price will double sales. Which leads to this point...


You think I think that, I merely gave math examples that could or could not be possible if a library lowered it's cost 30%. From my personal experience as a producer, when I lowered my producer fee quite substantially from what it was in 2012-2017, my work rate increased well above 50% of what it previously was. And to dismiss a topic because you don't like the person who wrote it, that's quite foolish.


Polkasound said:


> You're entitled to your opinions, and I respect your right to voice them, but I simply can't take them seriously because it's glaringly obvious you have no experience other than that of a consumer who, like every other consumer on the planet, wants more for less.
> 
> If you were a developer with experience in hiring musicians,


Again smh this is exactly why I gave you the restaurant analogy (which you seem not to understand). Do you need to have experience being a cook in a restaurant to complain to the chef that the food wasn't cooked well? 


Polkasound said:


> I specifically said I was NOT suggesting you were uneducated, nor did I call you a name. I was only suggesting you were ignorant in the area of business economics. [And I don't mean that in a condescending way because no human on the planet knows everything about everything. We're all knowledgeable about some topics and ignorant in others.]


Usually when someone says "I'm not saying you're uneducated but", they are in fact implying you are uneducated without really saying it. Like in a conversation when someone says "I'm not trying to be rude but", they usually go on to say something incredibly rude anyway. 

And I went to college for music so of course business economics is not my strong suit, however I'm not completely ignorant in that area. Although I'll be the first person to tell you I don't have all the answers.


----------



## MeloKeyz (Sep 27, 2022)

Shhh! Please stop it as I am preparing to start my own sample library company. You're switching me off now! And I won't change my price


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Spid said:


> What's funny is that the OP kept saying sample libraries should be cheaper, like $99-149 cheap, but then he has no problem with a company like Spectrasonics that sell Omnisphere close to $500...
> 
> It just proves that the price by itself isn't the issue, it's up to everyone to estimate if a product is worth its price tag, regardless if it's a $10 or a $990 plugin/library.


Smh I never said Spectrasonics wasn't expensive. I can still respect a company and its values (no sales and fixed prices) but still disagree with the pricing.


----------



## veranad (Sep 27, 2022)

I will try to ignore the noise in this thread and simply answer the question, which I find interesting.

Yes, some libraries are overpriced, but not all of them.
Sales are so frequent and discounts often so deep that prices sometimes do not feel right. FOMO seems to work.
And lastly, price and value are not the same thing. I value resale, returns, and fully finished products by companies that support them. But that´s just me (a hobbyist beginner).
I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this matter on this forum too.

(Edited to correct spelling)


----------



## Studio E (Sep 27, 2022)

@SoftSynthLover99, a quick review of many of your previous posts, kind of makes it seem like you focus a lot of negative energy on the price aspect or perceived value of libraries/instruments. Just saying, that even though you'll always have a small audience of people who would like more-for-less, it seems like a waste of energy, much like what I am doing as I type this. I also think that on a human level, I feel a real connection to the artists who create and provide these tools, and want to see them rewarded for their innovation, dedication, and artistry in creating these tools. I look at how accomplished people like Eric, Paul, Christian, Doug, Nick, Tari, Mike, and hundreds of others who I don't know by name, are, and the last thing I think, is that I should have any f**king opinion on what their pricing should be. They did the work, not you, not me, them. The post comes off like a hit-job on people who have likely, worked considerably harder than many of us, and feeling that personal connection to their creation, it straight-up, kind of pisses me off. Maybe the nuance of your tone is being lost in keyboard translation, but your relentless back-and-forth arguing with everyone, just screams entitlement, and for f**k's sake let's NOT compare this brand of entitlement with actual human atrocities. 

The ONLY thing I wish I could change in terms of the value, would be for the licenses to be transferable, and to that degree, I'm not even talking about being able to sell them, but I wish I could legitimately give away some of the terabytes of awesome libraries that I know I can do without, so that someone who truly DOES understand the value of them, but can't afford them, could be gifted some pretty nice stuff.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 27, 2022)

Studio E said:


> The ONLY thing I wish I could change in terms of the value, would be for the licenses to be transferable, and to that degree, I'm not even talking about being able to sell them, but I wish I could legitimately give away some of the terabytes of awesome libraries that I know I can do without, so that someone who truly DOES understand the value of them, but can't afford them, could be gifted some pretty nice stuff.


Amen to this. I have a few libraries I would gladly donate to aspiring composers, or those who legitimately can't afford certain libraries.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> You are confusing new and shiny releases with relevance.


That's interesting, because just a couple of minutes ago you've tried to back up that Spectrasonic would be _one of the leaders of_ _software instruments _because of..



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Several huge updates to Omnisphere that most companies would consider a brand new product, 4 Sonic Extensions for Omnisphere which are brand new instruments that sound really good, major updates to Trilian as well, so quite a lot of releases and high quality maintenance updates from spectrasonics the past 10 years.



If someone then points out that Native Instruments is doing all of that as well, suddenly the things you just classified as the attributes that make a company a _leading company for software instruments_ are just shiny new releases without any relevance.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Is Spectrasonics not a company who is thriving without any kind of sales?


I already replied to that, maybe you'd like to answer too:



Voider said:


> If you don't create new products and don't drive innovation - yes. Unfortunatley none of the big software instrument developers you find overpriced falls under this category, so it doesn't reinforce your point.





Voider said:


> You also didn't explain why a company who didn't develop any new product in the past 8 years should be compared to companies who release several new products a year and have way higher expenses.


Note: Updating your 8 year old product isn't the same as developing several top tier orchestral libraries in terms of expenses, and these companies also update and maintain some of their old products, so that's nothing Spectrasonics exclusive.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Again, spectrasonics have been creating new products and improving existing ones quite frequently.


I see only 4 products in their shop:

Omnisphere (2015 - 7 years old)
Keyscape (2016 - 6 years old)
Trilian (2009 - 13 years old)
Stylus RMX (2004 - 18 years old)

Would you care to elaborate where these newly created products are? And I'm not talking about these four expansions with a few new instruments. I create 40 brand new instruments on a synthesizer too in two weeks if you want. I'm talking about the things that make Spectrasonics _a leader of software instruments_ in your eyes. Because by your current definition, almost everyone out there who has released one or two popular products and shared some updates for it would be _a leader in the world of software instruments_. Are we going to use that term this inflationary?

Native Instruments sheds out tons of brand new expansions for Maschine every single year, also brand new instruments like the Play Series for Kontakt. But they do it just on the side next to dozens of other huge expensive projects and developments. That's what tells a leading company in the world of software instruments from a smaller developer who has created one or two successful products a decade ago apart.

But I don't want to be picky. Maybe you just say the wrong words but mean something else, something like [...]_a company who has released one of the most popular powerful synthesizer engines. _That's something I don't dare to question, I am well aware of the popularity Omnisphere had.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> What do you want, someone to collect hundreds of google links and post them here? C'mon man. It's no secret that Omnisphere is used on countless records, movies and TV shows. Maybe you hold a grudge against spectrasonics or something I have no clue what you're getting at lol.



See, what I really pointed out here is the exorbitant hyperbole of the claim that you've only made up because you couldn't back up your statement with actual sources. Instead of showing us successful VST manufacturers who do equally expensive new libraries each year as the big players and reported how well their business grew since they've stopped running sales and lowered pricings in the same time (_two things that - both - straight lead to a huge decline in revenue_), you decided to lift Spectrasonics to the skies.

So it's not about Spectrasonics in particular. I just still hope that you stop with hyperbolas and either back up your claims if you introduce them with sentences like "could *definitely* lower pricings while reaching *more customers**", or just be honest and say "I don't know man, that's just how my stomach feels".


*(https://vi-control.net/community/threads/are-sample-libraries-overpriced.130292/post-5188117)


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

Studio E said:


> but your relentless back-and-forth arguing with everyone, just screams entitlement, and for f**k's sake let's NOT compare this brand of entitlement with actual human atrocities.


It’s pretty clear after 17 pages of comment, that we mainly just see a butthurted OP that feels the need to argue to everyone that disagree with him, which is 90% of the post here since everyone agrees that it’s up to everyone to estimate if a library is worth its price or not… and ultimately, it’s what leads the market. Everything else is just pure noise…


----------



## SupremeFist (Sep 27, 2022)

Are guitars overpriced?
- not really until you get to Custom Shop stuff which is mainly for dentists

Are Stradivarii overpriced?
- probably

Are grooveboxes overpriced?
- no

Is beer overpriced?
- YES


----------



## Braveheart (Sep 27, 2022)

Trent Reznor has entered the discussion:
https://musictech.com/news/music/trent-reznor-affordable-synths-lifeless-music/


----------



## Roger Newton (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Smh I never said Spectrasonics wasn't expensive. I can still respect a company and its values (no sales and fixed prices) but still disagree with the pricing.


Made loads of money because of Spectrasonics. Imagine trying to do all that can it do with live players and instruments. Anything from synths to bongos. And as an added bonus, years ago Eric kindly sent me Omnisphere all the way from the USA for a total cost of $20. Fact!

You can't get better value than that.

You could easily make your entire Spetraconics catalogue (full) cost in just one royalty payment. You could score an entire film with it. The amount of time that must go into making Omnisphere for example, must have taken an eternity. The amount of time I take to write a track using Spectrasonics that pays say, pays $1000 in one or two payments, doesn't. Go figure.


----------



## Polkasound (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> And to dismiss a topic because you don't like the person who wrote it, that's quite foolish.


I don't dislike you. I personally have nothing against you, and assume you're a very nice person. I dismissed the topic solely based on your lack of qualifications. You don't need to be qualified in anything to state an opinion, but depending on how and where you share your opinion, your qualifications will determine how people will react.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Usually when someone says "I'm not saying you're uneducated but", they are in fact implying you are uneducated without really saying it.


Some people may imply that, but in my case, I specifically said that to differentiate _uneducated_ from _ignorant_. Even the most educated people in the world are ignorant in some things. I have no reason to believe you're any less educated than I am.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Do you need to have experience being a cook in a restaurant to complain to the chef that the food wasn't cooked well?


No, but you're not making a fair comparison. Here's a fair comparison: If you're going to go into a food industry forum and state grievances with the price of food and how everyone in the industry would benefit if, say, $60 dollar steaks were reduced to $10, you have to back that up with experience working in the food industry if you want to be taken seriously.

It's one thing to say _"I think the price of this particular library is too high because... "_ and then state your reasons based on comparisons to comparable products and any additional information you can provide. But when you propose how everyone in the industry would benefit if high priced libraries were much lower in price, and you have no experience in developing, marketing, and selling VIs, your opinion carries the same level of credence as, _"We could solve poverty in America if the government would just print a bunch more money and give it to poor people!"_

Again, I have nothing against you or your right to voice your opinions. I just can't take them seriously due to your lack of experience on the manufacturing/supply side of the equation. I was serious about my comment regarding running your kids' lemonade stand for a month, because it would give you a fundamental education in startup costs, labor costs, overhead, raw materials, profit margins, market location, advertising, etc. These are things you'd expect someone to know _before _they go into a forum with lemonade experts and suggest how lemonade should be priced differently.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> That's interesting, because just a couple of minutes ago you've tried to back up that Spectrasonic would be _one of the leaders of_ _software instruments _because of..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you’d like to have a discussion that’s fine. But chopping up sound bites from my post, picking out things from one paragraph and and cleverly leaving out parts and saying I said things in a way that I didn’t say them, that I don’t have the time nor energy to entertain, sorry.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> I don't dislike you. I personally have nothing against you, and assume you're a very nice person. I dismissed the topic solely based on your lack of qualifications. You don't need to be qualified in anything to state an opinion, but depending on how and where you share your opinion, your qualifications will determine how people will react.
> 
> 
> Some people may imply that, but in my case, I specifically said that to differentiate _uneducated_ from _ignorant_. Even the most educated people in the world are ignorant in some things. I have no reason to believe you're any less educated than I am.
> ...


We will just have to agree to disagree on how we see things. But that’s the beauty of seeing the world differently than others. People sharing different views, having differing opinions on topics is apart of a healthy society. But when we get to the point where we can‘t respectfully disagree, and everyone MUST think this way or else, that gets scary pretty quickly. 

Then someone’s idea or opinion that’s different than yours becomes entitlement, ideologies get placed onto the person that they never said nor believe, all because it’s convenient and easier to make up a fantasy character you can throw mud at, than actually try to see where a person is actually coming from.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

Schrödinger's developer according to a few people in this thread: you should lower your prices, you would make SO much more money! But then, you make WAY too much money, you evil capitalist elitist, you should lower your prices, so you make less money!

And round it goes, until everyone works for free...


----------



## HotCoffee (Sep 27, 2022)

So, to sum up thus far; some people think that some libraries are overpriced, some don't and some aren't? I could be wrong, so let's have another 20 pages of debate.


----------



## Voider (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> If you’d like to have a discussion that’s fine. But chopping up sound bites from my post, picking out things from one paragraph and and cleverly leaving out parts and saying I said things in a way that I didn’t say them, that I don’t have the time nor energy to entertain, sorry.


I didn't do that, and you know that. It's bad practice to blame others when you reach the point where you'd either stand your argument or admit that you've been wrong. It takes courage to do the latter, not so much to allege others to twist your words when they didn't.

Regarding your allegations, I didn't pick anything out "cleverly". I pointed out - like many others here - that Spectrasonics didn't have overhead costs of producing another 3-4 new products a year for the past 7 years since they've released Omnisphere, which makes them not really comparable to developers like Orchestral Tools.

At this point you started to compare creating several new libraries and products a year with two or three updates and an expansion set that Omnisphere has gotten in 7 years. As if creating that four expansions for Omnisphere was anywhere near the production costs of OT's releases in the past 7 years.

You frequently ignore people in this thread who are developers themselves and share their experience.

You've suggested to me that a quick google search would help to figure out Omnisphere's popularity,
yet you didn't use google once to have at least a single look at one of the hundreds of comprehensive analytic reports out there, showing the importance of sales for businesses all around the world.

You'd even pretty quickly stumble across content that explains the difference between customers who feel loyal to a brand and always buy full price with a very high tolerance for the price range, and brand unrelated customers who rather do _impulse purchases_ within sale periods. If you'd understand these concepts it would help you immensely to understand this topic on a larger scope resulting in more accurate and complex thoughts than "_if they do x, y happens_", and that these two customer bases aren't interchangable and as such can't be treated in the same way.

Spectrasonics actually misses out on a large chunk of the second group, which isn't problematic for them because they have very low development and maintenance costs, their products by far have exceeded the _return of investment_ and the owner seems to be happy with what he earns and don't want to bother with sales, which is - believe it or not - always a good bunch of work too. But that's why you can't compare them to companies who produce several new products a year and need the extra profit to fuel these developments.

I've even provided this thread with actual numbers from Orchestral Tools here, another thing you've ignored: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/are-sample-libraries-overpriced.130292/post-5188068

Also, established well known products attract new customers easier than new libraries which are unknown territory without reputation, another aspect that makes sales important for companies who frequently release new products and also another reason, why a comparison with Omnisphere doesn't make sense.

But it appears you like avoiding to deal with anything here that's really putting the finger on the wound.

No hard feelings though,
good luck with your thread.


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 27, 2022)

Keep the cost of sample libraries where they are.
Pay artists more, create a society once again that values instead of exploits artists.

Problem solved.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 27, 2022)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Keep the cost of sample libraries where they are.
> Pay artists more, create a society once again that values instead of exploits artists.
> 
> Problem solved.


unless sales decline with the current crisis =less money for artists.. companies should adapt to it pricewise, or i forsee problems ahead, if the crisis keeps going


----------



## Roger Newton (Sep 27, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> unless sales decline with the current crisis =less money for artists.. companies should adapt to it pricewise, or i forsee problems ahead, if the crisis keeps going


Well you could apply that across the board. On just about anything that is purchasable. 

Purely as an aside, just talking about interest rates; low interest rates for example (as some would judge what in fact low interest rates are), low interest rates are now gone forever. Those low days are gone for good.

Will that stop people from buying things? Never has done in the past.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 27, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> Trent Reznor has entered the discussion:
> https://musictech.com/news/music/trent-reznor-affordable-synths-lifeless-music/


It being affordable and too many options isn't so much the problem as a complete lack of standards, over-reliance on technology and industry nepotism is.

I guess you could say it being more expensive would prevent the not-serious people from pursuing music, and it's true that limitations breed creativity, there's probably a lot of truth in it, but then — that never stopped plenty of crap musicians from getting record deals anyway and people will just pirate if it's too expensive and hardly anyone is still buying physical synths except the ultra-nerds.

Today, there are many more echo chambers and anyone could become a social media master or soundcloud sensation and everyone wants to get their music "in" something like a film or game.

There's just not many people who take the craft seriously anymore, and more-expensive and limited stuff could probably alleviate the issue somewhat, but there's definitely a long list of things that would come before that to such a point that affordable and varied tools would become a clear advantage.

I mean, he's specifically talking about synths. Electronic music. I don't think being able to buy a $99 synth pack that gives you ever classic synth ever is the problem so much as "four-on-the-floor, offbeat bass" being an entire genre is. 

We live in a time where so much artistic and culture potential is going to waste.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Voider said:


> You frequently ignore people in this thread who are developers themselves and talk out of experience.


This is exactly what I’m talking about. I’ve replied and talked with multiple developers in this thread, Stefano from Zero-G, BunkerSamples guy and Mike Greene (moderator) from Relitone samples. I had a few small conversations with each of them. Go back in the thread if you wish to read those comments, I haven’t deleted or edited any post.

But yet you say things like the above insisting I’ve ignored developers who‘ve responded here. That’s what I don’t have the energy to keep responding to because you don’t seem to be interested in discussion, just the “I’M RIGHT YOU’RE WRONG” kind of back and forth which is not what good discussions are, and not what I have time to entertain. 

Cheers!


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> This is exactly what I’m talking about. I’ve replied and talked with multiple developers in this thread, Stefano from Zero-G, BunkerSamples guy and Mike Greene (moderator) from Relitone samples. I had a few small conversations with each of them. Go back in the thread if you wish to read those comments, I haven’t deleted or edited any post.
> 
> But yet you say things like the above insisting I’ve ignored developers who‘ve responded here. That’s what I don’t have the energy to keep responding to because you don’t seem to be interested in discussion, just the “I’M RIGHT YOU’RE WRONG” kind of back and forth which is not what good discussions are, and not what I have time to entertain.
> 
> Cheers!


You don't seem to take what we say on board though. It's very much real world experience versus your opinion and made up numbers, over and over...

I'm out, have fun...


----------



## homie (Sep 27, 2022)

I don't have real numbers either but say a lib is $200. You would only need to sell 2 licences for $100 to get the same amount. Common sense and life experience tells me that it's very probable that you would sell at absolute minium 3 licences for $100. Some say that devs then have higher support costs, but in reality many don't have something you could call support anyway. See how Perfomance Samples handles that.

How do you think Plugin Alliance made all their money? Surely not by insisting on high original pricing. Yeah, i know that market is much bigger, but the principles are the same.

I also feel that many here underestimate how large the world wide market really is.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> I don't have real numbers either


I give up...



homie said:


> I also feel that many here underestimate how large the world wide market really is.


And I feel that many here, no wait...I KNOW that many here underestimate how difficult it is to sell sample libraries, even to the whole wide world at reasonable prices.

I make my living creating and selling sample libraries - yes, I'm a small one person indie dev, but I survive. Here are a few real world numbers of TOTAL revenue (not profit) from various countries, since starting this in late 2018 (so almost 4 years):

Estonia: $84
Denmark (my bloody ancestral country!): $1,155.70
India (pretty big country, yes?): $376.40
Georgia: $59
Hungary (strong music culture, yes?): $59
Croatia: $25
China (another huge country, I hope you will agree): $29
Vietnam (where I actually live!!!): $1
Russia (again, pretty big, yes?): $439.40
Brazil: $195
Cayman Islands (You'd think they could afford it, no?): $59

And my favourite,
Antarctica: $59

So from India, China and Russia (lets not get into politics right now), 3 of the biggest economies in the world, I have made $844,80 in revenue. Calculating profit is a bit more complex, because some of those sales are from Bunker Strings that had high productions costs but also sold much, much better in other countries, then there's hosting and transaction fees which is about 3,5 %, but let's be super generous and say profit is about $750 from about 2.9 BILLION people! That's 750 USD (before taxes) from nearly 3 billion people over almost 4 years - that's your world wide market for you: about $16/month (before taxes mind you) from about half the potential market. Considering my most expensive single product is $79, according to the "logic" put forth in this thread (low prices, huge market), I should be a millionaire, but I'm not. 

Thank you to my one fan in Antarctica, whoever you are! Or maybe it was someone who used a VPN to not pay VAT, who knows...

This should give you an idea. Yes, my libraries could be crap, or too niche, but I don't think so, I hear them on Netflix shows all the time, and a few Hollywood A listers have told me Bunker Strings (available here for a very good price - hey, if Mike can, I can at least try) is their secret weapon. Maybe I suck at advertising, which is entirely possible, but I think I'm getting to a point where most people in the biz have at least heard the name. I have many avenues of growth to explore, but lowering my prices ain't one of them, that's for sure.

And no, I won't tell you what my total revenue is, but trust me, I'm not rich, I'm just getting by. These are just a few of the countries in my list that represents a nice random of the "large world wide marker" as you call it (with some pretty big countries in there). Real numbers, versus made up numbers. Can we put this thread to bed now, please...


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> I don't have real numbers either but say a lib is $200. You would only need to sell 2 licences for $100 to get the same amount.


not even close…. Let’s use those stupid numbers based on nothing, shall we?

Let say you have a $20 fix cost per license, when you sell at $200 you’re making $180 profit, but when you sell at $100 you’re making only $160 (2x $80). And in reality it’s even worse because now you need to scale up your distribution and support for more customers… and no, not every company is a one-man type operation!



homie said:


> Common sense and life experience tells me that it's very probable that you would sell at absolute minium 3 licences for $100.


That’s the problem with an economy of scale, you can’t just guesstimate to get double profit, or even triple profits by simply reducing sales price by 50%… that would be too easy and everyone would sell $10 sample libraries to reach millions of buyers…. Except they don’t.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> I don't have real numbers either but say a lib is $200. You would only need to sell 2 licences for $100 to get the same amount. Common sense and life experience tells me that it's very probable that you would sell at absolute minium 3 licences for $100.


That’s not even worthy enough to be on Sesame Street.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> You don't seem to take what we say on board though. It's very much real world experience versus your opinion and made up numbers, over and over...
> 
> I'm out, have fun...


I disagree with that. I've asked questions of developers to further my understanding of the topic and definitely have taken your comments and others on board. Would I word the first post I made differently now? Yeah probably so. But I also still have my own opinion regarding sample libraries (and vet instruments in general) in regards to pricing. Will that change over time? Yes more than likely, as I gain information and ask more questions and hear from more developers, it would be foolish not to take the experiences of you and other developers on board.

Maybe you missed when I asked Stefano this "Do you feel like your libraries are priced too low? Curious to know why you don't sell your libraries at a higher price point, and if by selling at reasonable prices, you feel like you are losing out on revenue?

Cheers!"

I don't have all the answers man. Which is why I keep asking questions, and btw your company is already reasonably priced, and nothing I've raised in this thread actually goes against your prices or your company at all. For what it's worth I plan to check out some of your libraries in the future 

Edit: And for the record, I made 1 post with hypothetical numbers and a hypothetical scenario. I never claimed that scenario was a fact of the universe or that it would absolutely be the outcome if developers slashed prices 30%. I merely offered my own take of what could POSSIBLY happen in such a scenario. Of course a developer could slash prices 30% and and make no profit. If 100 developers slashed prices 30%, we would likely see 100 different outcomes of how that would turn out. To assume I believe that every single developer in the world would follow my hypothetical scenario, is a bit ridiculous (you're believing something even I don't believe at that point). Just wanted to clear that up as I keep seeing people suggest I keep making up numbers. It was literally 1 post.


----------



## homie (Sep 27, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> And I feel that many here, no wait...I KNOW that many here underestimate how difficult it is to sell sample libraries, even to the whole wide world at reasonable prices.


Maybe they are overpriced or just not desired enough? It is to be expected that many smaller or newer companys will fail. There aren't any guarantees for market success.


----------



## homie (Sep 27, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> That’s not even worthy enough to be on Sesame Street.


Why?


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> Maybe they are overpriced or just not desired enough? It is to be expected that many smaller or newer companys will fail. There aren't any guarantees for market success.


My libraries are all over Netflix shows and the most expensive is $79 - you tell me...

And I am successful and on a good path of growth, I just get tired of people trying to tell me how I should be running my business, because I've tried all that, and it doesn't work. And when I point that out, I get hit with made up numbers like yours. I've been there, done that, got the T shirt, why do you still think I don't know what I'm talking about.

If I can sell 1 library in China (which I did), I should be able to sell 2, by your logic - but I didn't. And yes, it was at a discounted price.


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 27, 2022)

lettucehat said:


> He just agreed with you that that's not how the world works, silly.


Yes. People pay what they think something is worth to them. The logic and reasoning behind it is irrelevant.


----------



## homie (Sep 27, 2022)

@thesteelydane 

Since when was this about you or your company? I don't get it.


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

telecode101 said:


> Yes. People pay what they think something is worth to them. The logic and reasoning behind it is irrelevant.


We can all see you just edited your initial post (4mn ago)… nice try buddy!


----------



## Mike Greene (Sep 27, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> I give up...


I tried to warn you ...


----------



## homie (Sep 27, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> If I can sell 1 library in China (which I did), I should be able to sell 2, by your logic - but I didn't. And yes, it was at a discounted price.


Ok, let's try something else. How many licenses of this particular library would you have sold to a guy in China if the price would have been twice as high? I hope you get the picture.

Sorry, i don't think your personal data is representative enough to allow any general conclusion.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> @thesteelydane
> 
> Since when was this about you or your company? I don't get it.


Misunderstanding. You said many underestimate how big the world market is. I gave you numbers from my own business that shows it’s not as big as you think. And then you said this:


homie said:


> Maybe they are overpriced or just not desired enough? It is to be expected that many smaller or newer companys will fail. There aren't any guarantees for market success.


Which I wrongly perceived as being about the quality of my products. I see now that’s probably not what you meant.


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> Sorry, i don't think your personal data is representative enough to allow any general conclusion.


Because random numbers out of one’s ass are more representative? At least @thesteelydane numbers are based on reality… contrary to any other numbers I’ve seen so far on this thread.


----------



## thesteelydane (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> Ok, let's try something else. How many licenses of this particular library would you have sold to a guy in China if the price would have been twice as high? I hope you get the picture.
> 
> Sorry, i don't think your personal data is representative enough to allow any general conclusion.


He would probably have bought it anyway, since I clearly found the one guy in China who values my products. Probably so he can pirate them to his mates though, which is why I haven’t had a single sale in china since. I should have charged him a million bucks.

Just the other day I found out you can “buy” what they call a “producer pack” of a whole suite of libraries here in Vietnam for 5 million dong, which is about 250USD, including hacked copies of Alex‘s CSS and @mike Greene‘s Realivox - I’m trying to get to the bottom of who it is, but this is a different topic.

I just took a sleeping pill to stop myself from replying to further comments in this silly thread. Zopistad 7,5mg for the win!


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

PS: let’s not forget the OP initial post that mentions that all libraries should be priced between $29 and $99…. $149 for the best ones, comparing that with the price of DVDs and music, all being sold at a similar price. Beautiful Marxist utopia to have everyone set at the same prices, right? Who decide the prices? Not a company that made the product, but apparently the OP because he feels that way. But hey, it’s ok for Spectrasonics because they made a popular plugin with Omnisphere…


----------



## homie (Sep 27, 2022)

I think i get what the misunderstanding is based on.

In my scenario i presume widely desired products, where high prices are the foremost reason for less than optimal sale perfomance. But we are now talking about very niche libs with a much smaller expected audience. That's actually another case. But there are still many factors (other than pricing) for market success.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> I just took a sleeping pill to stop myself from replying to further comments in this silly thread. Zopistad 7,5mg for the win!


Well without this "silly thread" I would have no clue bunker samples as a company even existed, and I definitely wouldn't be watching your walkthrough videos of Off World Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 with a plan to purchase them (I love experimental weird kontakt libraries).

So if you took the advice of @Mike Greene and just ignored the thread, you wouldn't have at least 1 new customer here in the US. So maybe not so silly a thread after all? Lol take care!


----------



## RoyBatty (Sep 27, 2022)

homie said:


> Ok, let's try something else. How many licenses of this particular library would you have sold to a guy in China if the price would have been twice as high? I hope you get the picture.
> 
> Sorry, i don't think your personal data is representative enough to allow any general conclusion.


if I am following your math correctly, he would sell exactly 1/2 of a Kontakt instrument in China!


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 27, 2022)

Spid said:


> PS: let’s not forget the OP initial post that mentions that all libraries should be priced between $29 and $99…. $149 for the best ones, comparing that with the price of DVDs and music, all being sold at a similar price. Beautiful Marxist utopia to have everyone set at the same prices, right? Who decide the prices? Not a company that made the product, but apparently the OP because he feels that way. But hey, it’s ok for Spectrasonics because they made a popular plugin with Omnisphere…


Yeah, let's hold a person to only 1 (very misunderstood) statement they made, and disregard the evolution of discussion over 19 pages...Let's also assume they weren't exaggerating or being over the top when they made some of those statements.

And I guess every movie, album or TV show released on physical media, should be considered part of a marxist utopia since they all share a standard price range when released?

I think it's awesome we are able to buy our favorite albums and movies within a standardized pricing structure that every day citizens can afford. Imagine what you would pay for a Marvel film like Spider-Man No Way Home ($200 million dollar budget) if this wasn't the case!


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 27, 2022)

Spid said:


> We can all see you just edited your initial post (4mn ago)… nice try buddy!


Yes. I fixed a grammar mistake. But the general jist of the post has not changed. People pay for things they want that they think is valuable to them and fits their desires -- not always their needs. 

To keep my point inline with sample libraries and plugins. I have been around long enough to see the value in spending more on better tools. But of course, as with everything, it all comes down to what will you do with the better tools and will you use them? If you do use them, you will see the value in spending more for them.


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 27, 2022)

sidenote: i notice there are a few members here that are quite edgy/snarly, impolite and demeaning to fellow members. please stop that! keep it a nice discussion


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 27, 2022)

You guys have no idea how little interest there is in live music.

My kazoo trio I started three months ago can't even get anyone in the seats even giving away tickets, imagine how difficult Nickelback and Metallica have it? They've got an uphill battle, boys. After they fly to Europe or Brazil, there's no money left. Chad lives under the bridge in Abbotsford now. If anything, their concert tickets should cost MORE.

Btw, we're adding some strings to our recordings. I had to give Spitfire my first born child for it, but it's actually a pretty good deal when you think about it. It's easier to make a baby than it is a sample library, and I can always make more. Plus, the cost of hiring a real orchestra is at least as much as raising a child anyway. Now I have neither a baby or a real orchestra to pay for, so these are some truly incredibly savings.

I mean what is with these entitled millennials? Sell your car and get the whole MtS course line while you're at it, you gotta get an education. Then just work harder and buy another car. These people need to make a proper wage™, damn it! Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and learn to walk in the mean time.

Back in my day, we walked up hill both ways in the snow just to get to school.


----------



## PhaseLock (Sep 27, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> You guys have no idea how little interest there is in live music.
> 
> My kazoo trio I started three months ago can't even get anyone in the seats even giving away tickets, imagine how difficult Nickelback and Metallica have it? They've got an uphill battle, boys. After they fly to Europe or Brazil, there's no money left. Chad lives under the bridge in Abbotsford now. If anything, their concert tickets should cost MORE.


I know this was meant as extreme sarcasm, but since we're talking about how expensive it is to record an orchestra, I'll just leave this here: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/20/pauw-j20.html

Quick Edit: I just googled the headline and didn't pay attention at all to the source I was linking. I'll leave it up and just note that I don't support the overall message of the site or the article. Here's a source with less of a political slant: https://www.kens5.com/article/news/...stra/273-4c19c67a-d14a-4ce1-bc17-09c8a2688c32


----------



## telecode101 (Sep 27, 2022)

The idea that a standard normal price of libraries should be $99, $149 up to $199 I think is just based on the OP's observations of what the usual sales promo deal traffic is for a lot of items that sell a lot. That being said, quality of products really varies and one can't really apply that sort of thinking across the board.

For example... electric pianos.

Soniccouture EP73 to Scarbee EP is a pretty big difference in sound quality and functionality. I can hear it and see it.. and it's fairly obvious. So it comes down to, do you just need a sampled EP for the lowest price or do you need the sound quality and functionality of the higher priced item?


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 27, 2022)

I cannot WAIT for page 20!


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 27, 2022)

NYC Composer said:


> I cannot WAIT for page 20!


Page 20 is overpriced. VI-C should discount it to page 10, then they'd double readership.


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 27, 2022)

Spid said:


> What's funny is that the OP kept saying sample libraries should be cheaper, like $99-149 cheap, but then he has no problem with a company like Spectrasonics that sell Omnisphere close to $500...
> 
> It just proves that the price by itself isn't the issue, it's up to everyone to estimate if a product is worth its price tag, regardless if it's a $10 or a $990 plugin/library.


This is what I was thinking. I think Omnisphere is way overpriced. But then, I bought it and never really use it. It's too much work to get sounds I want. It is easier to buy Heavyocity or Output on sale. But to each their own.


----------



## Spid (Sep 27, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> This is what I was thinking. I think Omnisphere is way overpriced. But then, I bought it and never really use it. It's too much work to get sounds I want. It is easier to buy Heavyocity or Output on sale. But to each their own.


Just to make it clear, I have no issue with Spectrasonics prices, nor any other library. It’s a free market so I’m perfectly fine with any developers to set the price they see fit and let the market to decide if they made the right decision. And I personally evaluate it myself for any of my purchase, voting with my wallet.

I was simply pointing to the non logical and inconsistency of the OP regarding pricing.


----------



## Saxer (Sep 27, 2022)

No matter how cheap sample libraries will be my neighbor wouldn't buy it. My sister wouldn't buy it. Even my clients wouldn't buy it. They don't even know what that is. So scaling up sells by price doesn't really work.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

Saxer said:


> No matter how cheap sample libraries will be my neighbor wouldn't buy it. My sister wouldn't buy it. Even my clients wouldn't buy it. They don't even know what that is. So scaling up sells by price doesn't really work.


The people who do know what it is though tend to wait for sales of 60% off

Sales which are very frequent it seems.

We need some hard data, from a big-time dev, as to what the sales numbers are when the product is on sale vs when it is _not_ 60% off.

I suspect those numbers would be enlightening, and it is for that reason that we will not see them.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I think it's awesome we are able to buy our favorite albums and movies within a standardized pricing structure that every day citizens can afford. Imagine what you would pay for a Marvel film like Spider-Man No Way Home ($200 million dollar budget) if this wasn't the case!


You’re trying so hard while not understanding a single thing about it, it’s actually quite funny, even after 19 pages of entertainment…

So you believe _“standardized pricing structure makes goods affordable to every day citizens”… _Guess what, the price of gas is pretty much standardized across the country, does it make it affordable to every day citizen? Prices of Rolex are standardized accross the world, does it make them affordable to every day citizen? Once again you make parallel between goods of mass distribution such music and movies, and compare them with very niche products such high end sample libraries for composers… it just shows you have no understanding of the market at all.

Keep it coming, I have popcorn and I’m delightfully amused by reading shit on the internet… and this thread is pure gold comedy… and guess what, it’s free! 😂


----------



## musicsoftwaredeals (Sep 28, 2022)

They weren't overpriced 15 years ago when the East West Composer Collection was $5k because there was not many alternatives at the time. 

The market is very different now with everyone and their mother making a sample library, which is why we're seeing it becoming a race to the bottom in price. The market is now completely saturated so the only way to compete is on price but people need to feel like they're getting a deal so the prices will always be low/mid level with the discounts remaining high to attract customers


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

musicsoftwaredeals said:


> They weren't overpriced 15 years ago when the East West Composer Collection was $5k because there was not many alternatives at the time.
> 
> The market is very different now with everyone and their mother making a sample library, which is why we're seeing it becoming a race to the bottom in price. The market is now completely saturated so the only way to compete is on price but people need to feel like they're getting a deal so the prices will always be low/mid level with the discounts remaining high to attract customers


Damn, this thread caused "Music Software Deals" themselves to take on corporeal form and weigh in.

Impressive tbh


----------



## musicsoftwaredeals (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Damn, this thread caused "Music Software Deals" themselves to take on corporeal form and weigh in.
> 
> Impressive tbh


----------



## Iskra (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> It’s a free market so I’m perfectly fine with any developers to set the price they see fit and let the market to decide if they made the right decision. And I personally evaluate it myself for any of my purchase, voting with my wallet.


Exactly, that's basically it. 
If a library is at a price point you (or me, any potential customer) don't perceive as worthy for you, you just don't buy it. And in many cases you probably won't buy it even if the price was 30 or 50% off. This has nothing to do with the quality of the library itself, it could be that you already have many redundancies of that kind of sound or instrument, it could be it's interesting but you think you wouldn't use it that much in your music... a million different reasons. And don't get me wrong, as customers we make a lot of mistakes in our assesments, and that gives us buyer's remorse.
If a library is at a price point where you decide it's not worthy for you, that library is not for you, is that simple. 
Omnisphere is a good personal example in my case: I think it's a terrific piece of software, I think the sounds are gorgeous, but I don't have it simply because I consider I won't be using it much for the kind of music I do. Would I buy it if it was 99? Probably yes, because my treshold of "almost no brainer price if I'm interested" is below 100. This treshold is different for each one of us. Still, there are libraries out there that I would't buy even if they were 20 bucks.

I honestly can't understand how people with zero knowledge about how a company inner workings and figures can patronize about the pricing structure of said company. As any private company working in the free market, they put the investment up front to develop a product, and are completely free to price it how they deem it appropriate. You as a customer might think that you'd buy library X if it was half the price, but the one person or team that really knows if that's the case and if that might be profitable, is the developer itself. Plus, although I don't want to open this can of worms, but piracy for developers is still a thing, you know? Steelydane post talking about numbers should be an eye-opener to everyone (thanks for sharing your thoughts).

That's why we see so many different price structures, we see some of them doing a lot of sales, or reducing the price over the years, or offering substantial updates to old product at no (or little) additional cost, or keeping the original prices. It's their choice, naturally each of them do what they think is better for their business, and we give our most precious feedback via the cash we spend. 

When you think one library is overpriced to you (your personal financial situation, if you're a hobbyist or a pro, your needs, the treshold you have to indulge yourself with a little caprice, etc) you don't buy it; when you think a library is priced right to you, you buy it. Same as happens with everything. This does not mean any library is overpriced per se, it just depends on your situation, preferences and tastes.

I love Ferrari or Porsche cars, but I would not say they're overpriced. They are just simply not affordable for me. Should my personal situation changes (with the lottery or a good marriage ), they would suddenly be within my range and I would jump to buy a Panamera *and *a 812GTS.
I would not dare to tell Ferrari ownership that their prices should be 50% less and they would sell twice as many cars while doubling the profit. If that was the case, don't you think they would have done that already?


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> the price of gas is pretty much standardized across the country, does it make it affordable to every day citizen? Prices of Rolex are standardized accross the world, does it make them affordable to every day citizen?


Gas - yes it does, absolutely. Gas even with current prices is totally affordable for majority of people, even here in my country where the average wage is 3x lower than in USA and gas costs 2x more. 
Rolex - no it does not as Roelx is luxury brand of watches for rich people
You are really not trying to compare such things, don't you? I am constantly fascinated with your thoughts :-I



musicsoftwaredeals said:


> They weren't overpriced 15 years ago when the East West Composer Collection was $5k because there was not many alternatives at the time.


They were, just simply because of the fact that they could get away with the price because there weren't many alternatives. The fact there are not many alternatives does not mean the price isn't overpriced. It usually is a direct cause of why the cost is overpriced. Making a product when there are no alternatives costs totally the same as making it when there are a lot of alternatives around (like now). they were just using the situation back then - classic model. It is like you people call it "free market" blah blah, but this doesn't negate the fact that in the "free market" things are often overpriced. And no, it is not the same as with luxury products/these are tied to that one brand/ or similar, anyone can make sample library and if its good it will be selling, people not buying sample libs because of the brand (Except maybe Spitfire fanboys haha).


----------



## musicsoftwaredeals (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> Gas - yes it does, absolutely. Gas even with current prices is totally affordable for majority of people, even here in my country where the average wage is 3x lower than in USA and gas costs 2x more.
> Rolex - no it does not as Roelx is luxury brand of watches for rich people
> You are really not trying to compare such things, don't you? I am constantly fascinated with your thoughts :-I
> 
> ...


OK cool. Maybe the best way to answer "Is it overpriced" is just "*Maybe - it depends what you're willing to spend and how your define value*". 

Are iPhones overpriced? Maybe, but people still buy them. So if people still buy them, does that make them overpriced? Maybe?


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

Iskra said:


> I love Ferrari or Porsche cars, but I would not say they're overpriced. They are just simply not affordable for me


I knew this comparison would eventually come up. It's completely irrelevant.

Sports Cars are something that is genuinely a lot more expensive to build than your average car and very few exist and I'm pretty sure some of them only are built when they're ordered.

The majority of cars, however, are not sports cars and until recently, most people can and do own one that works perfectly well for personal transportation. Does Ferrari drop their prices on sports cars by 60% on Black Friday? Hell no, and they legit could not afford to.

So most people buy a used car; Pontiacs, Fords, etc. Meanwhile, most sample libraries can't even _be_ resold.

The thing about this "free market" thing is that if you put in the search, these forums and others are littered with threads of musicians bitching about other musicians working for free or below whatever arbitrary number they think they're worth. In the Politics section, there are people actually arguing for outright Socialism in the USA. I'm willing to bet if I took a lot through these threads again, I'd find some of the same names saying "free market" here, whining about undercut musicians in another.

That's what really chaps my ass about these conversations about price. We can simply just choose to not buy it when it comes to music courses like in the MtS thread, or samples, but how dare anyone go with the cheaper composer because he's cheaper! That is the general consensus of the composer community online.

Hollywood Orchestra is not a sportscar. It has certainly made back what it cost to create and then some. East West doesn't even really have to advertise at this point. If it were not profitable at the $400 dollar price point, which it is on sale at right now, East West would not sell it at that — yet, these people still defend its regular price of 1000 USD and say it's not over-priced and that is the heart of the issue here.

None of these people can name you a price they think would be unreasonable for an online course or a sample library because they don't believe one exists. 1,000? 5? 20? Sure, "if you don't like it don't buy it".

Except this "free market, bro" libertarian mindset has real consequences on more-important things than samples (not that most here seem to believe anything is more important) like insane food, energy and housing prices and you simply cannot "go somewhere else" and find a cheaper price and there are laws in place against "just build your own" to protect the assholes who DO own this stuff.

Don't think the same can't happen to software. 10 years ago, when video games were still mostly physical, they tried to make it so you couldn't even lend someone else your disk, and despite price-fixing supposedly being illegal, absolutely every store sold the same games at the same price point including the digital stores. Wal-Mart is having a sale? So is every other store, and at exactly the same price.

And if that price is too high for most? Tough shit, I guess you're not playing at all — we're still making money on the small amount who can. "Free market, bro".

You can not participate, but you better not say anything about how fucked up it is. It's just an asshole ideology.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> Gas - yes it does, absolutely. Gas even with current prices is totally affordable for majority of people, even here in my country where the average wage is 3x lower than in USA and gas costs 2x more.
> Rolex - no it does not as Roelx is luxury brand of watches for rich people
> You are really not trying to compare such things, don't you? I am constantly fascinated with your thoughts :-I



You’re completely delusional and not living in this reality… and you can’t understand any sarcastic argument whatsoever; I really need more popcorn at this point 🤣

But then you remind me that 30% of the population don’t even understand sarcasm, while the other 80% like me are doing just fine. That explain this whole thread in a nutshell… so let’s push it even further:

_“Well, then some sample libraries are luxury brands for composers… problem solved.”_

Or you could also complain of the price of first class ticket on plane… and come with fake numbers to show that a company could have more customers by slashing their price of first class tickets by 50%… to gain 3 times more first class customers.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> They were, just simply because of the fact that they could get away with the price because there weren't many alternatives. The fact there are not many alternatives does not mean the price isn't overpriced. It usually is a direct cause of why the cost is overpriced. Making a product when there are no alternatives costs totally the same as making it when there are a lot of alternatives around (like now). they were just using the situation back then - classic model. It is like you people call it "free market" blah blah, but this doesn't negate the fact that in the "free market" things are often overpriced. And no, it is not the same as with luxury products/these are tied to that one brand/ or similar, anyone can make sample library and if its good it will be selling, people not buying sample libs because of the brand (Except maybe Spitfire fanboys haha).


A friend of mine and I were discussing these threads the other day and he raised the point that many of these guys who will happily drop 5k on a sample library or 500+ USD courses are fine with them being that price because it will lock out newcomers to the business and eliminate competition.

Given that professional composers will intentionally give newbies the bad advice of "never accept anything less than what you're worth or you're devaluing the industry", but then turn around and accept $75 a minute instead of their regular 500 (true story) on a game that they "really like", I think it's a highly-plausible theory as to their motivations.


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

thesteelydane said:


> My libraries are all over Netflix shows and the most expensive is $79 - you tell me...
> 
> And I am successful and on a good path of growth, I just get tired of people trying to tell me how I should be running my business, because I've tried all that, and it doesn't work. And when I point that out, I get hit with made up numbers like yours. I've been there, done that, got the T shirt, why do you still think I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> If I can sell 1 library in China (which I did), I should be able to sell 2, by your logic - but I didn't. And yes, it was at a discounted price.


I am sorry, I listened to some of your stuff, it sounds gorgeous, but it is SUPER NICHE content. And I bet your marketing is close to 0 compared to large players. Did you run some (well-made) fB / google ads campaigns targeted at specific countries? 


musicsoftwaredeals said:


> OK cool. Maybe the best way to answer "Is it overpriced" is just "*Maybe - it depends what you're willing to spend and how your define value*".
> 
> Are iPhones overpriced? Maybe, but people still buy them. So if people still buy them, does that make them overpriced? Maybe?


Of course, that price always is about "what you are willing to spend". But when we talk about tools, not something that has its costs set by an imaginary aura of some desired item, the pricing became way more practical. And again, I am not saying libs nowadays are overpriced (mostly). The price should always be reflecting the cost of similar products out there but also the fact how many people who would like to buy are willing to buy it for the price. The fact developers of software ignored this logic led to super widespread of piracy. (and no, I am not telling that everyone who pirated software would buy it if there wasn't an option to steal it - this is bullshit, but many professionals from not-so-wealthy countries would of course go the "legal way" if the prices were lower. Now with for example Adobe and their pay per month model it is way easier for anyone to jump into it. Photoshop here used to cost 1500 USD now it is 25 per month, anyone can afford this. 

I have already used the iPHONE paradox as proof that people are often just stupid and they buy the most overpriced things no matter what. Of course, iPHONE is ultraoverpriced but it is a "brand" thing, many people just buy it because it has a "luxury" aura around it, Apple is a lifestyle, icon, and image thing.


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> You’re completely delusional and not living in this reality… and you can’t understand any sarcastic argument whatsoever; I really need more popcorn at this point 🤣
> 
> But then you remind me that 30% of the population don’t even understand sarcasm, while the other 80% like me are doing just fine. That explain this whole thread in a nutshell… so let’s push it even further:
> 
> ...


Actually, sarcasm is my favorite thing, but you need to know how to use it, which obviously, you have a problem with as nothing you write here has an indication of being sarcastic. It looks more like you are using "it was sarcastic" after your nonsensical arguments were debunked :(((

Oh no, the first class ticket, another "smart" argument 
Of course that they are overpriced, 1st class is for rich people or businessmen who get tickets paid for by their companies. Only 5-10% of people travel first class. It is again a luxury kind of thing. 

No sample libraries are not luxury things...


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Sports Cars are something that is genuinely a lot more expensive to build than your average car and very few exist and I'm pretty sure some of them only are built when they're ordered.


Well, then high-end composer libraries are a lot more expensive to build than your average library… problem solved!



Chris Schmidt said:


> The thing about this "free market" thing is that if you put in the search, these forums and others are littered with threads of musicians bitching about other musicians working for free or below whatever arbitrary number they think they're worth.


So, let me follow, it’s not ok when musicians do it, but it should be ok when a company that employs musicians to build a library do it




Chris Schmidt said:


> In the Politics section, there are people actually arguing for outright Socialism in the USA.



There we go, it only took 20 pages to go to the point… so let’s go full socialism and have all sample libraries listed at $10… right?


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> Oh no, the first class ticket, another "smart" argument
> Of course that they are overpriced, 1st class is for rich people or businessmen who get tickets paid for by their companies. Only 5-10% of people travel first class. It is again a luxury kind of thing.


You couldn’t be more wrong, once again, proving you talk out of your behind without even knowing the facts and reality…


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> No sample libraries are not luxury things...


They’re investments if you’re a pro composer, and luxury things if you’re a hobbyist… as simple as that.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Well, then high-end composer libraries are a lot mor expensive to build than your average library… problem solved!


All of these libraries do the exact same shit



Spid said:


> So, let me follow, it’s not ok when musicians do it, but it should be ok when a company that employs musicians to build a library do it


Musicians who whine about musicians not charging clients enough but tell musicians to "wait for sales" or use free stuff when it comes to their tools should stfu.



Spid said:


> There we go, it only took 20 pages to go to the point… so let’s go full socialism and have all sample libraries listed at $10… right?


No, we stop pretending that whatever library is really worth a four-digit figure when they will sell it for 500 or let you pay 30 a month to use it and we humiliate everyone who bought it at full price.

We also don't pretend that courses made by people who give away their content FOR FREE on YouTube and have basically zero overhead cost aside from paying for the website is actually worth an amount of money that eats easily half of the average person's wages or savings before tax in a month in even developed countries.

Just stop defending this bullshit, it's seriously embarrassing. It's just defending your abuser. That's the only reason this argument persists.

It's like when some moron buys a brand new car off the lot, and it loses 60% of its value the second the tires leave the dealership, and the guy winds up paying several times the car's "value" in monthly payments with interest, but all these rich guys and closet buyer's remorse types come out of the woodwork to defend the dealership who is screwing them when they could've bought the same damn car used and saved astronomical amounts of money — "the dealership has to make money too! Do you know how much it costs to run one! You're just entitled!"

It's like yeah or maybe the car just wasn't worth what you paid and you should stop enabling this predatory business model.


----------



## DivingInSpace (Sep 28, 2022)

Saw someone compare the Spitfire Originals and Soundpaint stuff, which is priced rather cheaply, with more expensive libraries. No doubt these are amazing value for the money, but there are two things you need to remember: Most of them are small libraries that didn't require hirering 60 musicians to make. And, both Spitfire and 8Dio are big players on the market with a lot of products, so their releases don't have to pay for themselfs as quickly.


----------



## Loïc D (Sep 28, 2022)

This thread really turned down my motivation to release my brand new Armpit Farts library. At $99. Ilok required. No resale.


----------



## reutunes (Sep 28, 2022)

No. Next question.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

Loïc D said:


> This thread really turned down my motivation to release my brand new Armpit Farts library. At $99. Ilok required. No resale.


Price it at least $599, you put in a lot of work and I'll bet your arm got sore. 

Then drop it to $99 BLACK FRIDAY ONLY, and then raise it again. No one will remember.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> All of these libraries do the exact same shit


Then why you care about the expensive ones? Just ignore them and buy the cheap one you like, after all, they’re all the same shit, right?



Chris Schmidt said:


> Just stop defending this bullshit, it's seriously embarrassing. It's just defending your abuser. That's the only reason this argument persists.


I don’t have any abuser, I’m perfectly fine with any company choosing their prices, their discount or else… and I don’t care if they even make gazillions dollars, good for them. All I care is what I get for my money. I spend my money wisely and I have zero regret even if everything I own now would be given for free now… because at the time I bought them they were worth the money I was willing to spend.


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> You couldn’t be more wrong, once again, proving you talk out of your behind without even knowing the facts and reality…



Man, you are really...special. This video shows this: There are rich people who pay for first class and it brings a huge revenue to the companies. Nothing else. It does not show that a LOT of people fly via 1st class. It is always a small %. 

"In the United States, slightly more than half of the population has flown in an airplane in the previous twelve months. The numbers are similar for China.
On any domestic US airplane, approximately 5% to 10% of the seats are in first or business class."

That's because the tickets are overpriced and target only a very small %of people who are using airplanes. BUT flight via 1st class or Economy takes the exact same time as with 1st class. So no it is not comparable with sample libraries. When you buy a budget library it isn't the same as the full version, it won't get you to the "Same place".


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> Man, you are really...special. This video shows this: There are rich people who pay for first class and it brings a huge revenue to the companies. Nothing else. It does not show that a LOT of people fly via 1st class. It is always a small %.


Dude, you couldn’t even understand the video? No wonder you can’t understand writings here…


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> That's because the tickets are overpriced and target only a very small %of people who are using airplanes. BUT flight via 1st class or Economy takes the exact same time as with 1st class. So no it is not comparable with sample libraries. When you buy a budget library it isn't the same as the full version, it won't get you to the "Same place".


Wrong!

First class tickets are not overpriced, they’re priced correctly… economy tickets are underpriced. As mentioned in the video, the plane is heavily paid by the higher classes, not the economy classes. So without those higher classes, you wouldn’t have economy class, since you can’t fit 2,000 economy class tickets on a single plane… that’s the whole notion of economy of scale, it has its limits, just like sample libraries have their reach limits too.

Buying cheap libraries will get you exactly the same thing than expensive ones… you can make music with it. Just like you can travel with economy class from the same departing and arrival points than higher classes. The difference is not about destination or time, it’s about quality of service… just like high-end sample libraries have higher quality of service too. But you can still make music… actually you can even make better music today with cheap libraries than Hans Zimmer 30 years ago with all his custom made libraries on his 27 Roland S760 samplers. And that’s what all of you don’t get…


----------



## Henu (Sep 28, 2022)

I'm basically just echo-chambering here, but nevertheless.

Expensive sample libraries aren't a necessity nor a human right. Those are tools meant for those people who are capable and willing to invest on them- who mostly also have some career behind them.

When I moved to samples from a workstation back in the day, I bought Kontakt 2 and later GPO 1 which were the only things I could afford at the time. I didn't have the new cutting edge stuff because I couldn't afford it, and that was life. I didn't have a fucking mixing console or a LA-2A either. When I was 24 I thought it was clear as hell that I couldn't afford to buy Spectrasonics' Atmosphere even if I wanted it really bad. Heck, I couldn't even afford food at times back then!

Nevertheless, I was ok with what I had most of the time and so were the people I worked for. And with these prices and these options you have nowadays, so should you.


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> They’re investments if you’re a pro composer, and luxury things if you’re a hobbyist… as simple as that.





Spid said:


> Wrong!
> 
> First class tickets are not overpriced, they’re priced correctly… economy tickets are underpriced. As mentioned in the video, the plane is heavily paid by the higher classes, not the economy classes. So without those higher classes, you wouldn’t have economy class, since you can’t fit 2,000 economy class tickets on a single plane… that’s the whole notion of economy of scale, it has its limits, just like sample libraries have their reach limits too.
> 
> Buying cheap libraries will get you exactly the same thing than expensive ones… you can make music with it. Just like you can travel with economy class from the same departing and arrival points than higher classes. The difference is not about destination or time, it’s about quality of service… just like high-end sample libraries have higher quality of service too. But you can still make music… actually you can even make better music today with cheap libraries than Hans Zimmer 30 years ago with all his custom made libraries on his 27 Roland S760 samplers. And that’s what all of you don’t get…


Oh my oh my...

It is actually like this: The existence of SOME commercial flights gets the most money from 1st class because there are people who are willing to pay for overpriced 1st class tickets. Still doesn't mean those tickets are not overpriced. There are companies who do not offer 1st class AT ALL and the tickets are cheap. So they are losing money? No... It is all about how you set your business model.


Yeah sure, it's completely the same.... Quality of service in the sample library world would be something like you getting a fancy box and some on-phone support not that the content will be completely different. And most people don't care about this same as most people won't pay 5-10x for plane ticked just because they get some meal for free and a bit more comfortable seat. The main issue when traveling is the time it takes and money won't change it sadly.
Arguments like "now you can do this and before it was way harder" are out of place, technology develops and constantly being more and more affordable.


----------



## Iskra (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Except this "free market, bro" libertarian mindset has real consequences on more-important things than samples (not that most here seem to believe anything is more important) like insane food, energy and housing prices and you simply cannot "go somewhere else" and find a cheaper price and there are laws in place against "just build your own" to protect the assholes who DO own this stuff.


Taking one tiny joke analogy at the end of a longer post to rant into a political reflexion of economics and your view of the world does not seem to be a very honest thing to do in an exchange of opinions, but anyways, I know some people want to turn anything into an ideological political battle, and right there is where I'm out. Not interested at all. If you think all the other alternatives to 'free market, bro' are better (despite the weight of all history itself), great and goodbye!
If you cannot see how far fetched is an OP questioning about the prices of the libraries from ending up ranting about housing or energy prices, there's little the rest of us can do. 



Chris Schmidt said:


> And if that price is too high for most? Tough shit, I guess you're not playing at all — we're still making money on the small amount who can. "Free market, bro".


Yep, if the company making that game can live, make their products and turn a profit with only the people that can afford to play, that's it. If not, they will do whatever it takes to change that: lower the price, the quality sometimes, the money they invest on future products, all sort of things... If not, customers will buy a competing product from a different company that better fits their needs. That is exactly free market and competency. 

Anyhow, probably it's time to take Mike's advice about the ignore button...


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> It is actually like this: The existence of SOME commercial flights gets the most money from 1st class because there are people who are willing to pay for overpriced 1st class tickets. Still doesn't mean those tickets are not overpriced.


Ok then, how do you know they’re overpriced? What are your knowledge about it, what are your sources to demonstrate that those higher classes tickets are overpriced? On what DATA do you rely on to make such claim? (Surely the same kind of “data” the OP used to decide a library should be between $29 and $99, $149 for the best ones, as mentioned on the initial post).



handz said:


> There are companies who do not offer 1st class AT ALL and the tickets are cheap. So they are losing money? No... It is all about how you set your business model.
> )Yeah sure, it's completely the same.... Quality of service i


And then they are companies that do not offer 1st class libraries and decided to make economy class sample libraries… so again, don’t buy the expensive ones and get the cheap ones… oh wait, that’s the “free market, bro” 😂


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Henu said:


> When I moved to samples from a workstation in the mid- 2000's, I bought Kontakt 2 and later GPO 1 which were the only things I could afford at the time. I didn't have the new cutting edge stuff because I couldn't afford it, and that was life.


Yes, life sucked back then I remember it very well. Being stuck with GPO 1 which sounded horrible even for the time it was released must have been super frustrating. Be happy that times have changed. And sample libraries are not overpriced anymore.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Iskra said:


> If you think all the other alternatives to 'free market, bro' are better (despite the weight of all history itself), great and goodbye!


They’re probably too young to even know history at all, or prefer to ignore inconvenient facts… I see it all the time, and that’s the kind of entitlement we can also observe from the 2 or 3 people here that are almost embrassing socialism to justify their argument that libraries prices should be set at the price THEY see fit… like $29-$99. No thanks!


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Ok then, how do you know they’re overpriced? What are your knowledge about it, what are your sources to demonstrate that those higher classes tickets are overpriced? On what DATA do you rely on to make such claim? (Surely the same kind of “data” the OP used to decide a library should be between $29 and $99, $149 for the best ones, as mentioned on the initial post).


because I am judging the price from a customer's point of view, not the seller's, of course. And for the majority of customers, 1st class is overpriced. Simply as that. The income of majority people on the planet is below average and something like 1st class ticket is expensive even for people who earn more than average... Its really so simple and I am surprised people like you still can't get it. Price of something is usually considered expensive when the majority of people can't afford it and overpriced if the benefits of the product are minimal compared to the standard, cheaper offering. I know you love examples:
APPLE - if you buy iMac at apple any extra RAM, HDD et costs you 3-4x more than if you buy it in a shop. Especially with RAM which was normally replacable with no service skills needed, it was ULTRA overpriced, Only a fool would buy it directly from apple paying 1000 USD more for something you can buy for 250, but yeah, some people obviously don't care. 


Spid said:


> And then they are companies that do not offer 1st class libraries and decided to make economy class sample libraries… so again, don’t buy the expensive ones and get the cheap ones… oh wait, that’s the “free market, bro” 😂


Free market bullshit again.... bravo.


----------



## Loïc D (Sep 28, 2022)

Since I feel this thread is a tad running in circle, I’d like to add that Mac are overpriced for music when you can do the same midi shit on a PC… or an Atari.. or a Casio Rapman.

Your turn, messieurs dames.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> because I am judging the price from a customer's point of view, not the seller's, of course. And for the majority of customers, 1st class is overpriced. Simply as that.


Thank you, so you just proved (once again) that you have absolument NO IDEA, and no DATA to estimate if something is overpriced or not… beside your own opinion. Luckily, the world doesn’t run around your opinion…



handz said:


> The income of majority people on the planet is below average and something like 1st class ticket is expensive even for people who earn more than average... Its really so simple and I am surprised people like you still can't get it. Price of something is usually considered expensive when the majority of people can't afford it and overpriced if the benefits of the product are minimal compared to the standard, cheaper offering.



Wrong again… it all depends what you get for what you’re paying for. Not everyone can buy a Boeing 747, but it doesn’t mean it’s an expensive plane in comparison to other planes… and it couldn’t be sold cheaper just for the sake of it because everything has a cost. 

You simply decide to ignore the cost of things, like the cost for producing a high-end sample libraries that will takes weeks and weeks of recording in a prestigious studio with talented musicians, recording engineers and then it will take months for designers to make use those recordings and make it an instrument anyone can use… 



handz said:


> Free market bullshit again.... bravo.


That’s where you loose all credibility for your arguments… but hey, if you want to live under socialism/communism, then good bye…


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Loïc D said:


> Since I feel this thread is a tad running in circle, I’d like to add that Mac are overpriced for music when you can do the same midi shit on a PC… or an Atari.. or a Casio Rapman.
> 
> Your turn, messieurs dames.


Yeah, I laugh at it, and didn’t even replied… it’s just idiotic. Typical method to side track a discussion when they’re out of arguments… beside “Free market bullshit again”.

As said, it only took 20 pages to show the real values of the people behind some comment, it’s not an attack on some library pricing, it’s simply an attack to the free market because some poor young kid can’t afford to buy some new shiny toys some professionals use… so they whine about it, they’re clearly so “oppressed” these days… 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

@Mike Greene I think at this point, we circled back over and over, it’s not even about sample libraries anymore. This thread should simple be moved to drama zone, or political zone, because we can clearly see it’s more against the free market than the price of (some) libraries per se. My 2¢


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> But then you remind me that 30% of the population don’t even understand sarcasm, while the other 80% like me are doing just fine.


So 110% of the population? LOLOLOL at least when I did my hypothetical math numbers, they added up to 100%  (30+80=110, not 100 FYI)


Spid said:


> So you believe _“standardized pricing structure makes goods affordable to every day citizens”… _Guess what, the price of gas is pretty much standardized across the country, does it make it affordable to every day citizen?


In regards to gas, yes for the most part. However I'm not blind to think every single person in the world can afford gas even though it's relatively cheap for all. Just like I wouldn't assume every person who wants to buy movies and music on physical media can afford it, or that every person who composes music can afford to buy Spitfire Originals at $29. Poverty is still a thing unfortunately even in the richest countries. 

That's why when gas prices went up just a little bit recently, you heard lower class, middle class and upper class citizens complain about the high gas prices. Not because they couldn't afford it, but because they know lower gas prices are possible.


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Loïc D said:


> Since I feel this thread is a tad running in circle, I’d like to add that Mac are overpriced for music when you can do the same midi shit on a PC… or an Atari.. or a Casio Rapman.
> 
> Your turn, messieurs dames.


Atari *LAUGH SIGN*
Mac is of course overpriced as hell, for any professional, resources heavy use like 3D rendering, an AMD Rizen PC with 3x performance of the most expensive mac will cost you less than half. And the fact that many pros moved back to PC from MAC in past years is quite apparent here in the forums as well. And I say this as a mac user.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> So 110% of the population? LOLOLOL at least when I did my hypothetical math numbers, they added up to 100%  (30+80=110, not 100 FYI)


Thank you for proving my point…


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> @Mike Greene I think at this point, we circled back over and over, it’s not even about sample libraries anymore. This thread should simple be moved to drama zone, or political zone, because we can clearly see it’s more against the free market than the price of (some) libraries per se. My 2¢


Some users seem to be getting off topic on purpose, but I'm still interested in hearing from more developers and the views they share on pricing. If that's of no interest to you, @Mike Greene showed very clearly how to ignore the thread all together if you wish.

Cheers!


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

you don’t want to hear from more developers, you want more people to valid your opinion, that’s it. 

In the mean time, you’re providing so much entertainment (don’t even realizing how stupid some of your comments are, jumping both feet into it… missing completely the whole picture), I can’t wait for the page 22…


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Thank you, so you just proved (once again) that you have absolument NO IDEA, and no DATA to estimate if something is overpriced or not… beside your own opinion. Luckily, the world doesn’t run around your opinion…


I gave a pretty straightforward definition you again do not understand it? 


Spid said:


> Wrong again… it all depends what you get for what you’re paying for. Not everyone can buy a Boeing 747, but it doesn’t mean it’s an expensive plane in comparison to other planes… and it couldn’t be sold cheaper just for the sake of it because everything has a cost.
> 
> You simply decide to ignore the cost of things, like the cost for producing a high-end sample libraries that will takes weeks and weeks of recording in a prestigious studio with talented musicians, recording engineers and then it will take months for designers to make use those recordings and make it an instrument anyone can use…



Boeing 747, really? This is the worst example of an argumentation foul. We are talking about consumer products, not about commercial airplanes or spaceships... man, really, stop writing such things...

Producing high end sample library costs a lot of money and time and nobody is denying this. So why do current sample libraries cost 2-4x less than before? Are the costs of making them lower now then 10-20 years ago? NO. So are the makers losing money on them now? NO. Do they now sell way more of them now when there are 10x more libraries available? And this is where it gets interesting. 
The user base for these products is constantly growing at the same as costs are going DOWN. The more technology or software prices fall the more people use them. There are millions of musicians in the world, pros and hobbyists. Music-making is not a small niche. There is always a limit but the more affordable pricing correlates with the number of users. Of course that if there are just 1000 people for your product you have to sell it for a large price but the userbase for sample libraries grew a lot in 20 years partially also because the software became more affordable. And again I am not saying they are overpriced. They are mostly fair priced now and with sales they can be quite cheap now. 


Spid said:


> That’s where you loose all credibility for your arguments… but hey, if you want to live under socialism/communism, then good bye…


Haha, sure. I bet people like you would be first in a line of protesters when the gas price will jump 4x up. And that "free market" won't count anymore... I am actually the exact opposite of some hard-boiled socialist but some things are not so black and white. I think that Chris has a strong point that the old pros who already can afford anything on the market don't like the idea of things getting more affordable as every aspiring new composer is a concurrence for them.


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> you don’t want to hear from more developers, you want more people to valid your opinion, that’s it.
> 
> In the mean time, you’re providing so much entertainment (don’t even realizing how stupid some of your comments are, jumping both feet into it… missing completely the whole picture), I can’t wait for the page 22…


I really wanna know how many copies of EAST WEST Orchestra gold and platinum been sold to the date.


----------



## J-M (Sep 28, 2022)

Overpriced? Some, maybe, but I think we're in a pretty good place.

I actually wouldn't mind paying more for an orchestral library with great quality control, sound, and hey, get this: CONSISTENT articulation sets across all the instruments.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> you don’t want to hear from more developers, you want more people to valid your opinion, that’s it.
> 
> In the mean time, you’re providing so much entertainment (don’t even realizing how stupid some of your comments are, jumping both feet into it… missing completely the whole picture), I can’t wait for the page 22…


You don't even know my opinion, yet you know better than I do what I'm actually thinking?

Man, why so unfriendly? We have differing opinions, is that not ok?


----------



## homie (Sep 28, 2022)

Unbearable how some people act in here.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

J-M said:


> Overpriced? Some, maybe, but I think we're in a pretty good place.
> 
> I actually wouldn't mind paying more for an orchestral library with great quality control, sound, and hey, get this: CONSISTENT articulation sets across all the instruments.


Yeah, I wouldn't say we are in the worse place ever in regards to the price of libraries. But I do think we have a lot of room to improve the prices especially with the more popular companies. More people are getting into music production than ever before, so the market is steady growing with more interested composers, producers and songwriters. 

The same way we talk about libraries from 10 years ago being way more expensive back then compared to now, is it not logical to think that 5-10 years from now, prices will be going down even further?

For instance, VSL BBO Orchestra bundle is $1,890. The BBO orchestra is a fantastic library collection no doubt about it, but is $1,890 the lowest price they could possibly sell the bundle, and still turn a profit? What if the BBO orchestra bundle was $499 instead? Would they lose money this way? Would they attract a ton of new customers to make things even out with lower pricing? Those are the kind of questions I don't have the answer to, but am extremely curious to know.


----------



## shropshirelad (Sep 28, 2022)

I'm UK based, so everything is overpriced at the moment! Have quite a few things that I'd like to acquire but they're all on hold for the foreseeable future. Well until BF, anyway.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> You don't even know my opinion, yet you know better than I do what I'm actually thinking?
> 
> Man, why so unfriendly? We have differing opinions, is that not ok?


Dude, we got 21 pages of your opinion… we get it!


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> I gave a pretty straightforward definition you again do not understand it?



Oh I get it that you talk based on nothing but your own opinion, no data, no knowledge about the industry, regardless if it’s airlines or sample libraries… you made that VERY CLEAR. Thank you



handz said:


> Boeing 747, really? This is the worst example of an argumentation foul. We are talking about consumer products, not about commercial airplanes or spaceships... man, really, stop writing such things...


Anything that be sold is commercial… but hey, let’s use something else if you want, then a Car. Not everyone can afford a $50k brand new car, it doesn’t mean they’re too expensive… the market decide if something is too expensive or not. Buyers decide with their wallet. The price tag alone mean SHIT! I would list a Ferrari for $20k, you would think it’s super cheap… and if I would list an used Yugo for $20k, you would rightly think it’s too expensive. It all depend on what we get for the price… same thing with libraries. Spending $1,000 in VSL/Spitfire/OT libraries, for me is worth it because of the quality of the product we get for the price. Free to you to decide otherwise, it’s your money and your wallet… if you think they’re not worth it, then don’t buy it. It’s no more complicated than that.



handz said:


> Producing high end sample library costs a lot of money and time and nobody is denying this. So why do current sample libraries cost 2-4x less than before? Are the costs of making them lower now then 10-20 years ago? NO. So are the makers losing money on them now? NO. Do they now sell way more of them now when there are 10x more libraries available? And this is where it gets interesting.


It’s a thing called rentability. When the cost has been absorbed by the first customers, the company can decide to lower their prices to reach new customers… it doesn’t mean the price was too expensive in the first place, because without the first customers they wouldn’t break even on their development cost, and if every customers would pay the reduced price, even with more customers, they would still not break even… it’s economy 101.



handz said:


> The user base for these products is constantly growing at the same as costs are going DOWN. The more technology or software prices fall the more people use them. There are millions of musicians in the world, pros and hobbyists.



If you believe there are millions of people buying VSL/OT high-end libraries, you’re delusional. They are millions of musicians, but not millions of composers that will buy high-end libraries… if you think otherwise, then you need to take a break from VI-C and go take a walk in the real world…



handz said:


> Haha, sure. I bet people like you would be first in a line of protesters when the gas price will jump 4x up. And that "free market" won't count anymore... I am actually the exact opposite of some hard-boiled socialist but some things are not so black and white. I think that Chris has a strong point that the old pros who already can afford anything on the market don't like the idea of things getting more affordable as every aspiring new composer is a concurrence for them.


I protest with my wallet… and so everyone should. That’s why this thread is just silly


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> For instance, VSL BBO Orchestra bundle is $1,890. The BBO orchestra is a fantastic library collection no doubt about it, but is $1,890 the lowest price they could possibly sell the bundle, and still turn a profit? What if the BBO orchestra bundle was $499 instead? Would they lose money this way? Would they attract a ton of new customers to make things even out with lower pricing? Those are the kind of questions I don't have the answer to, but am extremely curious to know.


But if they would be selling it for $499, then you (or one of your friends) would open a thread just as ridiculous as this one to say that $499 is silly and they would attract more people if they would list it to $199… actually, you mention the $29-$99 price range in your actual first post… no need to search very far.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> For instance, VSL BBO Orchestra bundle is $1,890. The BBO orchestra is a fantastic library collection no doubt about it, but is $1,890 the lowest price they could possibly sell the bundle, and still turn a profit? What if the BBO orchestra bundle was $499 instead? Would they lose money this way? Would they attract a ton of new customers to make things even out with lower pricing? Those are the kind of questions I don't have the answer to, but am extremely curious to know.


With all due respect, it's really nobody's business....except VSL in this case. They are a smart company and have a strategic plan that has been successful (obviously). Constantly poking developers with these questions is just plain insulting to them. You even got some detailed answers from a reputable developer yet you persist; because you didn't get the answer you were looking for(?). If you need the BBO bundle, you'll buy it, because you know what it has to offer. In VSL's case, you can even get a 100% refund within 14 days if it doesn't suit your needs. Otherwise, don't buy it. It's not rocket science. And we are talking about products that, on the very high end, are under $1200 for a single library.....this is small beans for both hobbyists and pro's alike. Shit, you want to talk about hobby's? My sailboat costs me, on average, $3000 per year just in maintenance costs, that's money I don't really have. But....sailing is one of my passions and I love it. No different than a hobbyist composer.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Dude, we got 21 pages of your opinion… we get it!


Judging by your comments and previous responses to me, I don't think you do at all. But no worries, we can agree to disagree on a multitude of things, including your view of my opinions. You don't have to have the same thoughts as me, for me to be respectful and kind to you. This is just a discussion to me after all, not an argument I'm trying to win.



Spid said:


> But if they would be selling it for $499, then you (or one of your friends) would open a thread just as ridiculous as this one to say that $499 is silly and they would attract more people if they would list it to $199… actually, you mention the $29-$99 price range in your actual first post… no need to search very far.


No, not at all. If they dropped the price to $499 from $1,890, I would consider that huge progress in regards to sample library pricing. It's probably unreasonable to expect them to go from $1,890 to $149 overnight. Perhaps in 5-10 years maybe we are at a place where sample libraries regardless of the company or quality, will range from $29-$149. I don't consider that unbelievable given the extraordinary prices of some sample libraries 5-10 years ago, compared to what they are now.


----------



## Loïc D (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Yeah, I laugh at it, and didn’t even replied… it’s just idiotic. Typical method to side track a discussion when they’re out of arguments… beside “Free market bullshit again”.
> 
> As said, it only took 20 pages to show the real values of the people behind some comment, it’s not an attack on some library pricing, it’s simply an attack to the free market because some poor young kid can’t afford to buy some new shiny toys some professionals use… so they whine about it, they’re clearly so “oppressed” these days… 🤦‍♂️


Haha take it easy mate… 

There was nothing personal, if there’s an assessment about me to come up with, it’s that I’m quite silly all the time. 🤡
And that I have a weird obsession for the Casio Rapman. 🥴


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> With all due respect, it's really nobody's business....except VSL in this case. They are a smart company and have a strategic plan that has been successful (obviously). Constantly poking developers with these questions is just plain insulting to them. You even got some detailed answers from a reputable developer yet you persist; because you didn't get the answer you were looking for(?). If you need the BBO bundle, you'll buy it, because you know what it has to offer. In VSL's case, you can even get a 100% refund within 14 days if it doesn't suit your needs. Otherwise, don't buy it. It's not rocket science. And we are talking about products that, on the very high end, are under $1200 for a single library.....this is small beans for both hobbyists and pro's alike. Shit, you want to talk about hobby's? My sailboat costs me, on average, $3000 per year just in maintenance costs, that's money I don't really have. But....sailing is one of my passions and I love it. No different than a hobbyist composer.


I can't say I agree with your perspective here. The whole "shut up and just be a customer and never ask questions" POV is something I strongly disagree with. The right questions can drive innovation, and I don't think most respectable companies find it insulting for users to ask questions. If they did, I would be much less likely to trust them and do business with them (shady companies never want to answer any questions). 

$1,200 for a strings library may be small beans to you or me, but for the vast majority of people that is not an option they have as a hobbyist or a professional trying to break through in the industry. 

I've had many up and coming producers bring tracks into the studio and play them for me or other artist, and the sounds they used are just not on the level of a professional mainstream record. A lot of it has to do with skill, and a lot of it has to do with access to high quality sounds. Giving higher quality sounds to up and coming producers/composers/songwriters will only increase the sonic quality of new music being released, and THAT is something I'm all in for.


----------



## homie (Sep 28, 2022)

all those SampleDevJusticeWarriors 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> No, not at all. If they dropped the price to $499 from $1,890, I would consider that huge progress in regards to sample library pricing. It's probably unreasonable to expect them to go from $1,890 to $149 overnight. Perhaps in 5-10 years maybe we are at a place where sample libraries regardless of the company or quality, will range from $29-$149. I don't consider that unbelievable given the extraordinary prices of some sample libraries 5-10 years ago, compared to what they are now.


… you’re not consistent in your replies. When Eastwest go from $5k to $990, and then to $399, you’re upset and claim that they were selling at an expensive price before… so by following your logic, if VSL would drop BBO from $1,890 to $499, you will react the exact same way… and then you or someone else will keep making the same argument from $499 to $199 and then from $199 to $29… since it’s all a race to the bottom.

Completely ignoring one major factor here, which is the cost for EW or VSL. If they decide to sell something $xx, it means they estimated it’s the highest price they can get by and still reach enough market as they plan to and need to to survive. The whole purpose of a company is to make a profit, you know, pay salaries to employees, development and future development and still have enough money to have a reason to make all this hard work in the first place.

So, yeah, it’s a race to the bottom and there’s no doubt we’re gonna see more and more cheap libraries in the future (under $99)… but there’s one major problem with that, is that like any industry that try to reduce cost as much as possible, you will have to use shortcuts like bad quality, bad support, no future development or even oversea cheap labors… we can already some developers that use East European musicians because they’re cheaper than US or West European musicians, or we can see companies deciding to come in the market at a lower price because they’re a very small structure (like Cinematic Studio), which also means slower development and updates. But in the end of the day, there’s no free lunch. You get what you pay for… And don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean that Cinematic Studio is wrong doing that, nor that they products are bad (I actually love my CSS), it’s just up to every company to decide THEIR business model they want to adopt. It’s not up to you (or me). The only way WE can actually have our say in any pricing, it’s by buying things wisely and spending our money in products we estimate at a fair price.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Giving higher quality sounds to up and coming producers/composers/songwriters will only increase the sonic quality of new music being released, and THAT is something I'm all in for.


Cry me a river. If those artists are 100% serious about their career, they will invest. No different than buying a good quality musical instrument. If someone can't come up with $500 for a library to run on their computer (which also needs to be decent for a good library), they better look at other options. As a session player yourself, I'm sure you can relate.


----------



## Rudianos (Sep 28, 2022)

1 quality studio grand is what 30k to 40k?... 

That or like 1000 virtual instruments that are all ready for recording in my magic box. From all over the world!

Granted some diminishing returns on quantity I would take the VI for my personality type.

Though I do have a grand and a selection of winds too ... these VI get much more use ... inspire me ... and engage my creativity more. No reeds ... me happy.


----------



## veranad (Sep 28, 2022)

@SoftSynthLover99 , @Spid : you guys should have a beer together or something.


----------



## Polkasound (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> If they dropped the price to $499 from $1,890, I would consider that huge progress in regards to sample library pricing.





SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Perhaps in 5-10 years maybe we are at a place where sample libraries regardless of the company or quality, will range from $29-$149.


And we're back to square one. As consumers, we'd all rather pay $499 than $1,890. Expressing a desire to pay less is nothing new, but for someone with no experience in VI development or business economics to suggest this pricing would be "progress" is probably the most bizarre statement I've ever seen in all my six years on VI-Control. It's the equivalent of a baseball player walking into an air traffic control tower and suggesting how to land planes. That's what makes this thread is so unbelievably weird. After 20+ pages, I honestly still can't tell if you're serious or if your posts are some sort of ongoing, elaborate trolling gag.


----------



## Braveheart (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Dude, we got 21 pages of your opinion… we get it!


I remember page 5… Those were the days


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> if you think they’re not worth it, then don’t buy it. It’s no more complicated than that.


Really I hate this kind of mentality, this is not about something being worth something - something being with something is totally hypothetical. If the price limits the majority of people potentially wanting the product from buying it, then it is too expensive no matter how good the product is. This market really needs to stop pretending to be something "better" and only for "pros". Adobe did it years ago and now every hobby photographer uses lightroom and photoshop because they can. 


Spid said:


> It’s a thing called rentability. When the cost has been absorbed by the first customers, the company can decide to lower their prices to reach new customers… it doesn’t mean the price was too expensive in the first place, because without the first customers they wouldn’t break even on their development cost, and if every customers would pay the reduced price, even with more customers, they would still not break even… it’s economy 101.


Who the hell now buys something for full price when there is always 1) presale price 2) intro discount 3) zillion of sales during the year? Probably the same people who defend any price as they buy anything for any price (and funnily enough - these people often get it for free / part of collab/review/demos) ...so good for them I guess, but the rest buy it for a discounted price. Selling software isn't like selling airplane tickets. Rentability? How do you know that they won't sell more at a lower price? This is all based on the fact that people like you still think these libraries have like 200 customers worldwide buying them. Nope. There is definitely more. And again, I am not saying currently the libraries are overpriced, but they were, they cost 5x more in a world where you had way less concurrence...


Spid said:


> If you believe there are millions of people buying VSL/OT high-end libraries, you’re delusional. They are millions of musicians, but not millions of composers that will buy high-end libraries… if you think otherwise, then you need to take a break from VI-C and go take a walk in the real world…


Well, there are millions of people buying sample libs / VSTs. of course that the amount of people buying large EXPENSIVE libraries is smaller as well, they are expensive.... but a number of hobbyists, starting or small scale composers is HUGE and they don't buy these libs because they can't allow them not that they don't want them... There are over 4 200 000 Cubase users, over 1,5000 000 Kontakt users. We are definitely not talking about a few thousands potential buyers here. Even if just 5% would be into orchestral sample libs, these are HUGE numbers. It is not year 1999...


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> Really I hate this kind of mentality, this is not about something being worth something -


This is ABSOLUTELY about something being worth something… you purchase a good (services, hardware, software, it doesn’t matter what), that you’re willingly exchanging an amount of money for… you’re getting something for this amount of money. Therefore it’s absolutely about something being worth something. That’s the whole notion of capitalism and free market. Nobody put a gun on your head to force you to use your credit card to buy something you estimate too expensive… you make the decision to buy it… or not. YOU are responsible with YOUR money. So if a developer doesn’t provide something worth the amount of money they’re asking for, then it will be a huge flop and it won’t work, the company won’t stay in business unless they revise their product and/or prices. That’s Free Market 101.



handz said:


> If the price limits the majority of people potentially wanting the product from buying it, then it is too expensive no matter how good the product is.



Then I want a yacht and private jet… does it mean they’re too expensive for what they’re providing in exchange of the millions of dollars you need to buy them? No, because it takes a HELL of development and producing cost to make those goods. The price alone means nothing in comparison to what we get for. Tomorrow I’m listing a sample library for $100k, it will be too expensive. But if I’m listing a yacht for $100k, it’s probably so cheap that it can’t even be true and must be a scam. Prices alone mean NOTHING. It’s what we get in exchange that matters.



handz said:


> This is all based on the fact that people like you still think these libraries have like 200 customers worldwide buying them. Nope. There is definitely more. And again, I am not saying currently the libraries are overpriced, but they were, they cost 5x more in a world where you had way less concurrence...





handz said:


> Well, there are millions of people buying sample libs / VSTs. of course that the amount of people buying large EXPENSIVE libraries is smaller as well, they are expensive.... but a number of hobbyists, starting or small scale composers is HUGE and they don't buy these libs because they can't allow them not that they don't want them...


Ok and where do you get your numbers and DATA about that? What are your sources to be so sure about your claims? That’s another guesstimation out of your behind like all other numbers we saw so far? Give me a break…



handz said:


> There are over 4 200 000 Cubase users,


And we all know that anyone that has a Cubase license is a top composer that will need and use high-end composer libraries such OT/VSL/Spitfire and such… 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Russell Anderson (Sep 28, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Trust me, sample devs have been trying exactly what you're saying for decades, and the current landscape is exactly where we wound up


posting in epic thread btw (/s)

but this is the same thing I tell people who are unironically anarchists. There's no point in it, because what we see around us already is anarchy. This is the result of complete chaos. We could start over and do it again, repeat all of history and come back to now, or we can keep pushing forward and make actual progress instead of burn and destroy things.


----------



## Aldunate (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Are sample libraries overpriced?​


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 28, 2022)

handz said:


> Oh my.... yeah, you are not serious if you don't want to get into risky debt to start an already very unsure musical career. Love this way of thinking.


Like I said, if someone is truly serious about pursuing their artistic career (or even as a serious hobby), they'll find a way to come up with $500 for a library. They obviously already have the system to run it (I hope), which was a lot more $$ than the average library. If not, then those individuals should save up the $$ somehow, or continue their self-entltlement rants and find an alternate career path/hobby; or move over, there's 1000 other aspiring composers willing to do what it takes. I don't think $500 is a risky debt ffs. A colleague of mine also complains about prices, yet spends $600 month on cigarettes alone and $300 at Starbucks . It's all relative.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> A colleague of mine also complains about prices, yet spends $600 month on cigarettes alone and $300 at Starbucks . It's all relative.


I agree… I quit smoking back in 2008 and I did the math and I already saved 21,456 bucks since I quit… that’s $21k I can easily spend on new computers, new libraries, etc… It’s all about spending money wisely.


----------



## handz (Sep 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Like I said, if someone is truly serious about pursuing their artistic career (or even as a serious hobby), they'll find a way to come up with $500 for a library. They obviously already have the system to run it (I hope), which was a lot more $$ than the average library. If not, then those individuals should save up the $$ somehow, or continue their self-entltlement rants and find an alternate career path/hobby; or move over, there's 1000 other aspiring composers willing to do what it takes. I don't think $500 is a risky debt ffs. A colleague of mine also complains about prices, yet spends $600 month on cigarettes alone and $300 at Starbucks . It's all relative.


Yes of course, it is all about just buying that one 500 USD library....


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> It's the equivalent of a baseball player walking into an air traffic control tower and suggesting how to land planes. That's what makes this thread is so unbelievably weird.


Ummm, what? LOL

I make music as a professional, I'm speaking about the pricing of virtual instruments as a user of virtual instruments. How is that the same as a baseball player walking into an air traffic control tower and suggesting how to land planes?

Now that is truly a bizarre statement LOL cheers for that one mate! I would definitely buy you a beer for that one if I knew ya.


----------



## ummon (Sep 28, 2022)

Hey, Sample libraries are PERFECTLY priced! - and that's why there's a big sale atm...


----------



## Henu (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I make music as a professional


Okey, I'll bite. A professional, living on his/her music, complaining about sample library prices and how those should actually cost from 30 to 100 dollars?


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Henu said:


> Okey, I'll bite. A professional, living on his/her music, complaining about sample library prices and how those should actually cost from 30 to 100 dollars?


That's an oversimplification of my view, but are you suggesting professional musicians can't complain about anything? Or even ask questions about prices? 

I think we all can agree all musicians should be paid appropriately for the work they do. But I guess it's wrong for a musician to try and find ways to save more money?

I find it a bit hypocritical of those who passionately believe musicians getting paid/having more money is a good thing, but then turn around and bash a fellow musician for trying to save some money on sample libraries? LOL C'mon guys, can't have it both ways. 

For the record, multi millionaire athletes complain all the time in sports about sooooo many things. But NOPE, musicians aren't allowed to have any complaints about anything!


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

And don't any of you morally superior beings DARE participate in the current Spitfire Audio 50% sale!! Those musicians who worked their assess off building those libraries deserve more than you cheapskates getting their libraries for 50% off! How dare you guys/girls even consider buying those libraries for a cheaper price?!


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 28, 2022)

i'm leaving this thread, have fun (but keep it light, friendly and respectful in here, or i'll be back  ) debating over prices and libraries and how you think it should be...


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I think we all can agree all musicians should be paid appropriately for the work they do.


But developers that do employ musicians and build sample libraries don’t… make total sense.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> And don't any of you morally superior beings DARE participate in the current Spitfire Audio 50% sale!! Those musicians who worked their assess off building those libraries deserve more than you cheapskates getting their libraries for 50% off! How dare you guys/girls even consider buying those libraries for a cheaper price?!


The difference is that it’s the developper that makes this decision to lower the price by xx%; that’s his prerogative… and not yours. Your prerogative is to decide if it’s worth buying it or not… at this price or any other price.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> The difference is that it’s the developper that makes this decision to lower the price by xx%; that’s his prerogative… and not yours. Your prerogative is to decide if it’s worth buying it or not… at this price or any other price.


So it’s ok for a developer to rob and cheat the musicians who worked so hard on the libraries, by offering the libraries they produced for 50% off? Someone needs to make a thread and tell Spitfire to stop this sale right now because they are cheating the musicians who worked on these libraries, right?! 

We should only be willing to pay the current list price for libraries, that way the musicians who worked on the libraries are compensated appropriately! What a slap in the face to those musicians if people buy those library at such cheap prices!


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> So it’s ok for a developer to rob and cheat the musicians who worked so hard on the libraries, by offering the libraries they produced for 50% off? Someone needs to make a thread and tell Spitfire to stop this sale right now because they are cheating the musicians who worked on these libraries, right?!



And once again you don’t understand that musicians got paid fully already regardless if Spitfire decide to sell it at 50% off or not. In case of Spitfire, they actually even pay musicians royalties, regardless the final price… so again, you’re wrong. You’re trying so hard bro…


----------



## Polkasound (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I make music as a professional, I'm speaking about the pricing of virtual instruments as a user of virtual instruments. How is that the same as a baseball player walking into an air traffic control tower and suggesting how to land planes?


The baseball player may fly in planes regularly, but that's the limit of his experience with the flight industry. He has absolutely no experience whatsoever in the profession of air traffic control. So imagine how air traffic controllers would react if he walked into a tower and started offering industry advice like, "Everyone would benefit if you landed planes in alphabetical order by pilots' last names."

As a user of VIs, your only experience is buying and using VIs. You have no experience in business economics, and especially no experience developing, marketing, and selling VIs... and yet you're suggesting how developers in this industry ought to be pricing their retail products? Can you seriously not see how unbelievably bizarre that is?

Your comments are so bizarre, I'm on the fence about whether or not you're actually a veteran VI developer trolliing this forum just for kicks and giggles.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> And once again you don’t understand that musicians got paid fully already regardless if Spitfire decide to sell it at 50% off or not. In case of Spitfire, they actually even pay musicians royalties, regardless the final price… so again, you’re wrong. You’re trying so hard bro…


Oh really now? So what about all those comments aimed at me claiming I was disrespecting the musicians who played on the libraries by suggesting the prices be lowered? All those who claimed I was somehow disregarding all the hard work the musicians put in just by suggesting some libraries are overpriced? I guess since it’s Spitfire slashing the prices, the idea is not “silly and out of this world“ anymore? Very interesting turn of events.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I guess since it’s Spitfire slashing the prices, the idea is not “silly and out of this world“


Of course not, but their sale doesn’t include libraries released in the last 12 months. Maybe they are still recouping their overhead from producing them? Now there’s a concept


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Let’s not forget they also don’t include any library under $99 either… what a concept too! 🤣


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

PS: I mean, it’s almost like Spitfire knows what they’re doing to price their libraries properly… but somehow they should follow pricing guidelines from some guys on forum… why? Meh… because they feel entitled to and whined for 23 pages already, so it must be a valid reason. 😂


----------



## Russell Anderson (Sep 28, 2022)

I know there's even a mod note on the OP explicitly mentioning the ignore thread feature for this reason, I'm just amazed this conversation is still going.

It got 10 pages in 24 hours! That's a lot of pissed off people. It's harder in some countries to buy the same product as it'll cost sometimes twice as much due to currency valuation, that's really the unfair bit IMO and I have no idea what anyone can do about that (except for make sacrifices ofc).




thesteelydane said:


> Most libraries sell 90% of the copies it will ever sell at launch…and then it becomes increasingly more and more difficult to sell, no matter how much you lower the price. People want new things, not a 3 year old library.


Man, that's pretty discouraging for someone who just bought a $1k instrument to sample as their first-ever product. Looks like I'm just gonna have to do my best to splash down hard as I can and then market pretty aggressively for awhile. I hope there is a caveat there hidden in bundle/catalog offers, like variety packs of food that mostly consist of the least-popular flavor.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Like I said, if someone is truly serious about pursuing their artistic career (or even as a serious hobby), they'll find a way to come up with $500 for a library. They obviously already have the system to run it (I hope), which was a lot more $$ than the average library. If not, then those individuals should save up the $$ somehow, or continue their self-entltlement rants and find an alternate career path/hobby; or move over, there's 1000 other aspiring composers willing to do what it takes. I don't think $500 is a risky debt ffs. A colleague of mine also complains about prices, yet spends $600 month on cigarettes alone and $300 at Starbucks . It's all relative.


I have built entire computers that can run all of these sample libraries for about the same price AS the $500 sample library and a computer does a whoooole lot more for that investment than the samples.

This "if you're truly serious..." ah yes, the "if you truly love me" gambit. Suddenly, nothing is asking too much or unreasonable because we can guilt you into it!

If these libraries cost as much as a house, which they cost as much as a car 15 years ago, you'd still be saying the same thing. "Bro, if you're REALLY serious about music, you'll drop a down payment." People were saying the same in the MtS thread. 

500 is a big ask for most people, they will have to put aside money for probably months, but at that price they could probably buy something like Berlin Inspire, which is good and can last them forever, so it's hard to say THAT would be over-priced. But then, I suppose they're "not serious" because that's an ensemble library and they didn't buy EVERY section at $500 a piece. If they were really serious, they'd have spent $2000.

I'm getting flashbacks to OcRemix. Sure, people CAN buy and use cheap or free stuff to make music, but then we'll shit on their music for using free or cheap stuff and tell them to buy better samples 

This sort of thing just has no limit and quickly becomes exploitative and completely insane.

I mean, I have literally seen people argue that you're "not serious" and "music isn't for you" if you don't want to drop out of school or potentially even become homeless (famous rockstar did it!) and permanently childless for music careers. I've seen people quit nearly 100k a year jobs with benefits to "become professional composers" despite having no credits at all and asking over 500 per minute and everyone who tried to stop them from making such a foolish decision was accused of "trying to stop him from living his dream" or "if you wouldn't do the same, you're not in it to win it!".

Believe it or not, but making little rectangles sound like a symphony orchestra or getting together with some overweight guys who smell like weed, b.o. and cheeto dust to join in their attempts at "metal", although perhaps fun — aren't worth and should not demand ruining your life and going broke over.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> If these libraries cost as much as a house, which they cost as much as a car 15 years ago, you'd still be saying the same thing. "Bro, if you're REALLY serious about music, you'll drop a down payment."


Absolutely, because the logic stays the same… like the video of Harry Gregson-Williams I posted that explains he took a loan of $100k+ to be able to be Hans Zimmer’s intern and have the same setup than HZ with 27 Roland S760…. He did it because that’s what it meant to do if you really wanted to be that serious about music composing… and look where he is now. And remember that $100k in 1990 is like $226k of today’s money. And you’re crying about $500, and yet you would want to have the exact same tools as all those composers.

The fact is that companies like Spitfire could easily decide to even not sell their libraries to the public and/or just sell it for $20k+ for just a dozen of top composers around the world. That’s actually how they started. Then what would you do then? You would have nothing… so you should be grateful that they found a way to bring it to market to more people at more reasonable prices, which allow now everyone with a computer to even run those libraries and have top notch result (if they know what they’re doing).

$500 for a professional composer to get good tools is nothing, it’s an investment that will be paid off by a single project.

$500 for a hobbyist composer is luxury, because hobbyists don’t have any income from their hobby, so anything above $0 is already too expensive and luxury. And yet, $500 is clearly nothing in a world of hobbies and in comparison to other hobbies (boat, motorcycle, golfing, flying, shooting, traveling, vintage car renovation, you name it).


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Of course not, but their sale doesn’t include libraries released in the last 12 months. Maybe they are still recouping their overhead from producing them? Now there’s a concept


That's quite possible! 

See, we can agree on something after all my friend


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> I have built entire computers that can run all of these sample libraries for about the same price AS the $500 sample library


If you can build a system that can host and run projects containing the Berlin series, VSL and Hollywood Diamond for $500, then you are indeed a wizard. The Ram alone would cost a lot more than that. Bravo!

BTW, your analogy about buying a house is amusing. Completely irrelevant, but amusing Lol.


----------



## Drundfunk (Sep 28, 2022)

This is the best thread on Vi-Control yet! 23 pages and all because someone thought to troll the heck out of VI-Control. It makes it even better because there are actually people siding with the op. Brilliant . There was a thread a few months ago on VI-Control about sales and one person on that thread mentioned the case of the J.C Penney department stores and how they failed when they adjusted their prices to steady low prices, instead of luring people in with sales. Worth to look into it. Might give you a new perspective. The sample library market is oversaturated af, so sales are actually a great way for developers to market their brand and to raise brand awareness (just think about how you even find new developers. Sure as hell you don't watch commercials on tv. Rather you might read a thread here in the Deals section). It's funny because the op is often mentioning Soundpaint as a positive example for his case, but completely undermines the fact that 8Dio is simply repackaging content of their Kontakt-libraries and then selling them in new packages for Soundpaint for the most part. Of course they can offer them cheap. The libraries are already at the end of their product cycle and repackaging them is a good way to squeeze the last drop of money out of them. As I said, I honestly believe the op is trolling the heck out of us, because nobody can actually be that oblivious to simple economics.....



Chris Schmidt said:


> I have built entire computers that can run all of these sample libraries for about the same price AS the $500 sample library and a computer does a whoooole lot more for that investment than the samples.


And how large is the market for computers in comparison to the market for sample libraries?


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Just to make it clear, I have no issue with Spectrasonics prices, nor any other library. It’s a free market so I’m perfectly fine with any developers to set the price they see fit and let the market to decide if they made the right decision. And I personally evaluate it myself for any of my purchase, voting with my wallet.
> 
> I was simply pointing to the non logical and inconsistency of the OP regarding pricing.


I was awkwardly agreeing with you.


----------



## Chris Schmidt (Sep 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Absolutely, because the logic stays the same… like the video of Harry Gregson-Williams I posted that explains he took a loan of $100k+ to be able to be Hans Zimmer’s intern and have the same setup than HZ with 27 Roland S760…. He did it because that’s what it meant to do if you really wanted to be that serious about music composing… and look where he is now.


You are completely-delusional and just not worth talking to at this point.

*<MODERATOR NOTE>* _General note to everyone - When you start a post like this, I'm going to delete it. (Or in the case, I deleted the remainder of this post, so I could leave this part as an example.)

I've edited and deleted a number of posts today, as people are taking this way too seriously. Please try to be polite. This thread isn't a worthwhile hill to die on._


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> But the point stands that a computer as a $500 investment gives you a much bigger return, generally.


So will a $500 sample library if the intent is to become pro. Your analogy is like someone investing in a good used car, but realizes they can't afford the gas.

Also, please show us a $500 computer that will run the higher end libraries, I am genuinely curious. Especially a system built in Canada.


----------



## Spid (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> You are completely-delusional and just not worth talking to at this point.


My post is supported by facts, I posted the HGW video where he talks about it (you only need to go 11 pages back to find it)… unless you mean he’s a liar and not worth talking to.


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 28, 2022)

Damn! I wish I could build a computer that would work with these libraries for $500. I didn't even put a GPU in the last one (VEP sample computer) or buy RAM and it was $1200. I repurposed the RAM from a prior build's upgrade, and used SSDs, m.2's and HDDs from the prior build also. I think I did buy an m.2 drive for the OS, so that was another hundred. 

The prior build was used to replace my old desktop computer that died right as I finished the build. The timing was perfect. I just put the original 32GB RAM back in it. 

Back to the subject. Coming from the pop/rock field where libraries are around $100, the $2000+ for SSO was a little shocking. (I didn't pay that, but it was more than the current price for me) Of course, now it is only half that. Such a great deal! I do understand the sticker shock on some of this and if you live in a country where the cost of living/earning is really low, these libraries are way overpriced as a percentage of income.


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 28, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> "Intent" means nothing. Most of the people who buy these libraries will never even make 500 with music no matter how much they "intend".
> 
> It's like how I don't intend to be rude, but this is just being completely honest.
> 
> ...


Wow. Just so you know, I did try running these libraries on sub $500 computers. Let's just say, crash and burn describes it pretty well. 

And I am not a broke student like you. Good luck getting EWHO to work on your computer. It was the reason I upgraded to 64 GB RAM. And bought VSL SE. 

And I'm going to ignore now. I think this could be a great discussion, but people like you ruin it.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Sep 28, 2022)

I thought I’d shift back on topic by giving some examples of libraries I think are objectively overpriced. 

1. Spitfire Audio The Grange (Rock Drum Library) list price = $249

Not only are some of the articulations not recorded properly, overall the library was poorly executed and no major updates happened to address the problems (cymbal crashes also have kick drum samples attached to them). 

Compared to GetGood Drums Modern & Massive which is only $99 without any sales (and blows the spitfire library out of this universe), this is by far a clear example of a overpriced library in my opinion. And a library that seems to not be in touch with the current market of rock drum libraries. 

Considering this is also priced above brand new Superior Drummer 3 SDXs which are deeply sampled with multiple drum kits, extra snares and kick drums, not sure how this is still at a list price of $249? 

This is honestly one of the worst drum library purchases I ever made, and the library definitely belongs in the $29-$49 price range. And that’s being very generous. 

If you have this library and disagree it’s not overpriced compared to the above mentioned alternatives, I would love to hear your reasons as to why. 

Peace and love to all of you! ✌️


----------



## dzilizzi (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I thought I’d shift back on topic by giving some examples of libraries I think are objectively overpriced.
> 
> 1. Spitfire Audio The Grange (Rock Drum Library) list price = $249
> 
> ...


I'm going to agree with you on that one. Which is why I wouldn't buy it. Plus, Addictive Drums keeps me happy. At least for rock drums. 

I do think Spitfire prices with sales in mind. 

I did hit ignore but I'm still getting notifications.


----------



## Trash Panda (Sep 28, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I would say some sample libraries are overpriced for what they offer, and in comparison to other sample libraries of the same style.


I think this is a very reasonable way of evaluating it. I think it's even more helpful to identify key aspects of sample libraries to determine an approximation of their worth.

Sample recording quality
Sample editing quality/consistency
Ease of use/scripting quality/flexibility
Depth of sampling (articulations, RRs, dynamic layers, mic positions, etc.)
Dev commitment to maintaining library



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Symphobia 1 is $329, oldie but good string library.
> Cinematic Studio Strings is $399, a highly regarded string library (I personally find it just ok).
> Tokyo Scoring Strings is $449, not worth that price to me, as I was very underwhelmed after purchase. (but not a bad library by any means).
> Berlin Strings by Orchestral Tools is $840 at the basic level. Have no experience here.
> ...


I think Cinematic Studio Series is a good choice to use as a benchmark for value versus price.

Recording-wise, other than the obnoxious hiss that seems to have been fixed in the recent ensemble strings update, they sound very good. 

Sample editing quality is largely excellent with only a few flubs here and there that eventually get fixed. 

Outside of the legato timing that could be addressed with lookahead technology and some questionable articulation management, the libraries are generally pretty easy to use and consistency across instruments and libraries is rock solid. Flexibility-wise, all of the libraries can handle most of the phrasing you throw at them well and can handle a pretty good spectrum of genres/styles from classical to cinematic. 

Depth of sampling is quite good as well with all the bread and butter articulations you would need and a number of less common articulations on offer as well.

Dev commitment to maintenance is right up at the top with few peers.

So overall, the CSS libraries are among the best from a _value_ perspective of what you get. Cost-wise at $399 retail and $279 via loyalty discounts for the other big libraries, I feel like CSS sets a really good base line for price to value. Some may not like the sonic characteristic or some of the scripting/design decisions, but I don't think many would argue these libraries are a good standard to measure other libraries against for whether or not a library is overpriced.

Looking at numerous other single section or all-in-one libraries, it seems $300-$500 is generally where most mid-tier libraries are going to fall price-wise and as long as they offer similar value on the above criteria, I think it is fair to put them in the "not overpriced" category.

If you find this conversation more interesting than the arguments for and against the price high and drive volume via time-sensitive discounts, I'm happy to discuss a few libraries that are under/overpriced in my opinion. 

FWIW, as an owner of Omnisphere, while I do love it and respect how powerful it is, I do feel it is overpriced compared to the competition as are the rest of Spectrasonic's lineup.


----------



## GtrString (Sep 28, 2022)

Drundfunk said:


> This is the best thread on Vi-Control yet! 23 pages and all because someone thought to troll the heck out of VI-Control. It makes it even better because there are actually people siding with the op. Brilliant . There was a thread a few months ago on VI-Control about sales and one person on that thread mentioned the case of the J.C Penney department stores and how they failed when they adjusted their prices to steady low prices, instead of luring people in with sales. Worth to look into it. Might give you a new perspective. The sample library market is oversaturated af, so sales are actually a great way for developers to market their brand and to raise brand awareness (just think about how you even find new developers. Sure as hell you don't watch commercials on tv. Rather you might read a thread here in the Deals section). It's funny because the op is often mentioning Soundpaint as a positive example for his case, but completely undermines the fact that 8Dio is simply repackaging content of their Kontakt-libraries and then selling them in new packages for Soundpaint for the most part. Of course they can offer them cheap. The libraries are already at the end of their product cycle and repackaging them is a good way to squeeze the last drop of money out of them. As I said, I honestly believe the op is trolling the heck out of us, because nobody can actually be that oblivious to simple economics.....
> 
> 
> And how large is the market for computers in comparison to the market for sample libraries?


+1 (In big deep shaky trailer voice)

_Im a time traveller from before there were internet and sample libraries. I tell you thou, you have no idea what you could not do before there were sample libraries. Fare in humble peace in thou digital domain _

(sample end, 100% wet space echo fades out into a reverb tail fart)..

Caughing, as the voice was too deep, and slapping hand on face for writing shit like this on the nothing net


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Nov 18, 2022)

As black friday seems to be here for the most part, I can’t help but notice that a lot of deals are not actually that great this time around?
Example:

Sonuscore Time Textures: $199 ($249 regular) listed as a SALE but that price should hardly be considered black friday pricing? 

I also find the Spitfire Audio Low Percussion library just released at $350 to be overpriced as well. Take away the Abbey Road name, who is really looking to pay $350 for just low percussion? 

Antares increasing the price of Auto Tune and it’s plugins. Seems some companies are out to make plugins more expensive? Interesting 🤔


----------



## Drundfunk (Nov 18, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> As black friday seems to be here for the most part, I can’t help but notice that a lot of deals are not actually that great this time around?
> Example:
> 
> Sonuscore Time Textures: $199 ($249 regular) listed as a SALE but that price should hardly be considered black friday pricing?
> ...


Sonuscore Time Texture is a fairly new library and most likely back to intro pricing.

Yes, the low percussion is expensive (and so will be probably all the other libraries in Abbey Road), but it's their prerogative to price it that way and if people buy the library for the price they're asking, they are in the right... . Also as discussed in the thread here on ViC it's definitely a library aimed at pros first, which means smaller market, hence higher price. 

But I agree that Black Friday is fairly tame so far. Simply means I won't spend as much money. Tough times atm. If there are more people like me and it hurts their sales they will only know right after the fact. That's why I wouldn't rule out Christmas time for sales. It might be even better than Black Friday. Some of their costs have to be recouped.


----------



## PhaseLock (Nov 18, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I also find the Spitfire Audio Low Percussion library just released at $350 to be overpriced as well. Take away the Abbey Road name, who is really looking to pay $350 for just low percussion?


It's a 100GB library, due to the depth of sampling. I definitely don't need 100GB of low percussion personally, but it's in the same ballpark as competitors if you look purely at the amount of audio content it contains. It's just a matter of whether that depth of sampling is worth it to you.


----------



## Vlzmusic (Nov 18, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> As black friday seems to be here for the most part, I can’t help but notice that a lot of deals are not actually that great this time around?
> Example:
> 
> Sonuscore Time Textures: $199 ($249 regular) listed as a SALE but that price should hardly be considered black friday pricing?
> ...


There you go again... (and that's Reagan, you know, a politician from back then, when you'd sell your pants, your dog, and your parents house to get a home studio...)


----------



## rMancer (Nov 18, 2022)

I buy a library for $100 (or whatever amount). Right now, I don't really need it. So yeah, it's overpriced, sure. I mean, I just spent $100 to move some data around, have some pixels light up on my screen in a certain way, and have some air wiggle in specific patterns from my speakers. I could have gotten all that for free... lit-up pixels, wiggling air, write cycles on my SSD. At this point, $5 would still be overpriced.

Tomorrow I get a gig, now maybe that overpriced library has suddenly become priceless.

So it wasn't that the library was overpriced, but rather, that I hadn't created sufficient value from it yet.


----------



## DivingInSpace (Nov 18, 2022)

Drundfunk said:


> Yes, the low percussion is expensive (and so will be probably all the other libraries in Abbey Road), but it's their prerogative to price it that way and if people buy the library for the price they're asking, they are in the right... . Also as discussed in the thread here on ViC it's definitely a library aimed at pros first, which means smaller market, hence higher price.


Oh yeah, it directly says that it is the start of their professional series (they even spelled out the whole word instead of just writing pro lol), so if that isn't a dead giveaway to hobby composers and others who don't earn most of their income from composing that it isn't aimed at them or their price range, then maybe the 16 signals/mic positions per drum should be. 


I am at a point in my life where anything over 3 mics is a waste of space.


----------



## Nadav (Nov 18, 2022)

rMancer said:


> I buy a library for $100 (or whatever amount). Right now, I don't really need it. So yeah, it's overpriced, sure. I mean, I just spent $100 to move some data around, have some pixels light up on my screen in a certain way, and have some air wiggle in specific patterns from my speakers. I could have gotten all that for free... lit-up pixels, wiggling air, write cycles on my SSD. At this point, $5 would still be overpriced.
> 
> Tomorrow I get a gig, now maybe that overpriced library has suddenly become priceless.
> 
> So it wasn't that the library was overpriced, but rather, that I hadn't created sufficient value from it yet.


Conclusion: no such thing as overpriced. Everything should cost billions of dollars and if you didn't make trillions off of it it's on you.


----------



## Lee Blaske (Nov 18, 2022)

Other folks have already touched on it, but I'll add a +1 to the idea that sample libraries are super cheap compared to the early days of sample libraries that I lived through. How about $10k for the Denny Jaeger strings library for the Synclavier II? And that was nineteen-eighties dollars. Load them into your NED sampler that cost $100k. For the Denny Jaeger strings (which weren't very good compared to current day standard), I waited for the eMu version of just the violins for $3k. Everything worthwhile cost thousands back then. OTOH, back then, if you had those libraries, you could charge a hefty figure for using them on someone's project.

Libraries are cheap, today. For me, the biggest cost consideration today is avoiding spending a lot of extra money on needless duplication. It often seems like different developers concurrently release similar products. The goal is to buy the most useful version (unless an alternate library has a radically different character that's worthwhile). The latest Spitfire low drums library is a good example of that for me. I've already got low drums covered eight ways to Sunday, and from my listening, some of the low drums libraries I already have are better sounding, and more extensive when it comes to articulations. 

Again, it's nice to have some library diversity, but why have SSDs filled up with content you never use? I find that although I have multiple libraries of most instruments, certain libraries rise to the top as my go-to libraries. There's something about them that's just better.

I have to say that from my perspective, although their products are not dirt cheap, VSL seems to be leading the pack these days when it comes to putting out libraries that have a huge amount of flexibility. Tons of articulations, and a very advanced mixer section with a lot of well designed processing. What really seals the deal is the variety of mixer presets that eek out some radically different sonic possibilities from the same batch of samples. Sometimes, I can't even believe I'm listening to the same set of samples.

There was also a lot of discussion about 8Dio in this thread, and the inexpensive SoundPaint libraries. I own a few of them, but I own a HUGE number of the original 8Dio libraries. I have a lot of respect for 8Dio, but I haven't yet warmed up to the switchover to SoundPaint. Do I really want to buy everything all over again? 

Anyway, we really have an embarrassment of resources, these days. A LOT of free stuff, too. Even though some products have a "premium" price (premium, at least, in today's market), money is not much of a limiting factor for anyone that wants to get involved with making music from samples in a DAW. Apps like Logic Pro already come with a mountain of sampled content that would get someone started.


----------



## peterharket (Nov 18, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Very curious as to why so many libraries seem to be unreasonably priced?


I thought this when I got into this some time ago too, and I realize that what seems to keep the price artificially “high” is Native-Instruments publishing fee. You never see Kontakt Player libraries below $99 (except for sales), as that seems to be the lowest the developer can price themselves and still recoup. So if anything, it is NI we should be a bit frustrated about. But again, they can do it as long as people flock to Kontakt, but over time, developers will look for alternatives - which are really the case now with SINE, Spitfire Player, UVI Workstation, Soundpaint etc (even though the two former examples STILL have some of the highest prices in the business, so maybe not the best of examples). So complacency breeds competition which breeds innovation, which brings higher quality and lower prices.


----------



## Lee Blaske (Nov 19, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> I am at a point in my life where anything over 3 mics is a waste of space.


Probably 90% or more of tracks that use a lot of low percussion are sooooo dense with other powerful elements that you're never going to hear a huge amount of detail and nuance. Not only that, but there are endless space generating plug-ins that can take samples to different sonic spaces, and actually help to glue individual samples together.

For anyone that's had music used in a movie or TV show, once that music is buried under dialogue and SFX, you'll very rarely be able to hear the exquisite sonics.


----------



## sumskilz (Nov 19, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I thought I’d shift back on topic by giving some examples of libraries I think are objectively overpriced.
> 
> 1. Spitfire Audio The Grange (Rock Drum Library) list price = $249


For me, it's overpriced at any price, because I don't need or want it, but I suppose it's only overpriced for Spitfire if they aren't selling enough copies to make a reasonable profit.



SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I also find the Spitfire Audio Low Percussion library just released at $350 to be overpriced as well. Take away the Abbey Road name, who is really looking to pay $350 for just low percussion?


The list price is actually $449, but in this case, as with The Grange, you can't really take the name, or names, out of the equation, because the names add to Spitfire's production costs and add perceived value for those that care.

Again, it's not worth it to me even at the intro price. Maybe within the context of a future discounted bundle it will be, but whether or not it's overpriced is still a negotiation of sorts between consumers and Spitfire, to the extent that if enough consumers buy it at the current price to satisfy Spitfire, then it isn't overpriced. Whereas if relatively few of us pay the price, it will eventually come down in one way or another.


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 19, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I thought I’d shift back on topic by giving some examples of libraries I think are objectively overpriced.
> 
> 1. Spitfire Audio The Grange (Rock Drum Library) list price = $249
> 
> ...


This library is 4 months old (end of July). Pretty much every other developer in the Kontakt-sphere has the same policy of keeping intro pricing as the bare minimum price for the 1st 6-12 months. Why would Sonuscore be any different?


----------



## DivingInSpace (Nov 19, 2022)

Lee Blaske said:


> Probably 90% or more of tracks that use a lot of low percussion are sooooo dense with other powerful elements that you're never going to hear a huge amount of detail and nuance. Not only that, but there are endless space generating plug-ins that can take samples to different sonic spaces, and actually help to glue individual samples together.
> 
> For anyone that's had music used in a movie or TV show, once that music is buried under dialogue and SFX, you'll very rarely be able to hear the exquisite sonics.


Oh, yeah definitely. And as i am at a point where i earn less than 2000€ a year from composing, i don't wanna spend all those money on more SSD space for 13 mic positions i don't need lol.


----------



## Spid (Nov 19, 2022)

Here we go again… Can’t we close this thread already? Clearly beating the dead horse at this point 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Bereckis (Nov 19, 2022)

I believe that in the end, the price of a library is really determined by the market.

Among other things, I own a lot of cheap and expensive Spitfire products and sometimes after buying them I had wondered why I was willing to pay that.

But I have found that in the end the expensive products are more sustainable for me.

The ARO Low Percussion was really not what I wanted and had then decided for me that I do not buy it because of the price.

Now I did buy them and the few instruments seem to be really very good.

In the end, however, I probably bought because I trust that Spitfire really makes a good overall product out of ARO.

Since I do not live from the music, I do not need to think here also economically but only musically.


----------



## RogiervG (Nov 19, 2022)

Spid said:


> Here we go again… Can’t we close this thread already? Clearly beating the dead horse at this point 🤦‍♂️


if it's pointless in your eyes, maybe you should leave the thread?


----------



## homie (Nov 19, 2022)

Spid said:


> Here we go again… Can’t we close this thread already? Clearly beating the dead horse at this point 🤦‍♂️


Some people here are strangely determined to defend high/over priced products. I wonder what your motivation on this topic is. Why do you see a need to defend such pricing on behalf of companies?


----------



## Spid (Nov 19, 2022)

homie said:


> Some people here are strangely determined to defend high/over priced products. I wonder what your motivation on this topic is. Why do you see a need to defend such pricing on behalf of companies?


Because I know what it’s like to have a business and to work in the music industry… so I also can see the bullshit in some posters here that just throw random numbers and have absolutely NO IDEA to what it really cost. They’re just whining and complaining that they can’t afford tools made for professional composers. I’m against any Marxist ideology, and I prefer to let the free market to decide the price of a product…


----------



## easyrider (Nov 19, 2022)

AR2 was was worth the £100 I paid and also Apssionata for £100 👍


----------



## homie (Nov 19, 2022)

Yeah let's just assume people here don't have any business or life experience on their own. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I'm also not a marxist and therefore against ending this discussion.


----------



## Spid (Nov 19, 2022)

homie said:


> I'm also not a marxist


Good, at least we have one thing in common. So, I will assume you haven't read the whole 25 pages on this thread... otherwise, you will understand what I meant.

We're just beating the dead horse at this point... This thread even deserve to be in /Drama section since it's clearly not about samples, but about having a grief toward pricing in general... and the fact some kids would like everything for free, because even free is already too expensive for them.


----------



## DivingInSpace (Nov 19, 2022)

Spid said:


> We're just beating the dead horse at this point... This thread even deserve to be in /Drama section since it's clearly not about samples, but about having a grief toward pricing in general... and the fact some kids would like everything for free, because even free is already too expensive for them.


While i agree that there are a lot of uninformed opinions in this thread, i think the post that revived it is worth discussing: Are the black friday offers worse this year? The example was terrible as both are quite new libraries on intro, or equevilant, discount though.

I personally think the current offers seems fine. 50% off Mertropolis Arks with the whole bundle at an okay price, 25% off Cinematic studio series (same as usual i think), pretty standard BF deals on Heaviocity, keepforest and NI. Let's see what the comming week brings.


----------



## asherpope (Nov 19, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I could very well be wrong, but I do remember discovering Symphobia around 2010-2011 when I first really started using it, only costing about $250. As I was in no position to spend anywhere near $1K on a library I can promise you I did not purchase it for that price lol.
> 
> I could swear I remember ProjectSAM charging more around 2010-2011 when I first discovered them, but such is the case of


----------



## Drundfunk (Nov 19, 2022)

Spid said:


> Here we go again… Can’t we close this thread already? Clearly beating the dead horse at this point 🤦‍♂️


At least the horse doesn't feel anything anymore at this point. That's a plus.


----------



## gamma-ut (Nov 19, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> While i agree that there are a lot of uninformed opinions in this thread, i think the post that revived it is worth discussing: Are the black friday offers worse this year? The example was terrible as both are quite new libraries on intro, or equevilant, discount though.



For starters, Black Friday hasn't actually started yet let alone finished. So, who knows?

Second, if someone wants to do that analysis, knock y'self out. Let us know how you score a Spitfire discount from a Rigid Audio discount and it's overall effect on the whole that will let you say "yay, and it was good" vs "nay, I am upset that the weighted average was 28.3% versus 31.2%".

Third, I'm not sure a post that cherrypicks, what, one specific example (as the other one isn't even a touted as a BF deal), brings much to the table. Though I suppose by adding a page and a half to the thread, it was a moderately successful chum chucking attempt, so yay for the OP.


----------



## Spid (Nov 19, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> Are the black friday offers worse this year?


That's a very fair question... and quite different from the rest of this thread. And to be honest, that's a good question that would even deserve its own thread.

I think there's plenty to discuss about it, with a BF on the verge of a recession... Plenty of things also get more expensive due to inflation (for instance, Apple One plan that just went from $20 to $23)


----------



## zwhita (Nov 19, 2022)

zwhita said:


> They are for dumbasses like me who have no compositional skills and basically just collect them. Out of $14,568 spent, I've lost over $6k...


2 months on and most of the 260 libraries purchased, just to feed a voracious addiction, are still sitting unused. Couldn't care less about BF deals. I could probably delete 90% of them right now and feel zero regret. I'm already back to synths because it's what I know and have recovered all of the $6k loss back into savings.

So... Luxury or very expensive lesson? Unknown for now, but they will be there if and when I'm ready.


----------



## DivingInSpace (Nov 19, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> For starters, Black Friday hasn't actually started yet let alone finished. So, who knows?
> 
> Second, if someone wants to do that analysis, knock y'self out. Let us know how you score a Spitfire discount from a Rigid Audio discount and it's overall effect on the whole that will let you say "yay, and it was good" vs "nay, I am upset that the weighted average was 28.3% versus 31.2%".
> 
> Third, I'm not sure a post that cherrypicks, what, one specific example (as the other one isn't even a touted as a BF deal), brings much to the table. Though I suppose by adding a page and a half to the thread, it was a moderately successful chum chucking attempt, so yay for the OP.


Take it easy buddy. I said that the examples the post came with wasn't very good, but the topic itself was interesting. I ended my post with "we have to see in the comming week" and i mostly mentioned how the companies sale compared to earlier years, not the sale from other companies. I don't know why we can't discuss this without pointing fingers.

I think with the crazy inflation, peoples general spending power lowered etc. it will be interesting to see how it reflects on this years black friday sales. Will they be cheaper, not as cheap, nothing changed etc.


----------



## BasariStudios (Nov 19, 2022)

Way underpriced yes, overpriced? Hello no! Yes, you might not have enough money to buy it or afford it but that is not their problem either. Things actually cost money. I buy a piece of paver for 1.50$ but i install it for 20$. Now, there is a lot of mathematics behind that. I also will not work for 200$ a day.


----------



## gamma-ut (Nov 19, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> Take it easy buddy.



Maybe it would be good to take it easy on your side. I just thought it was funny people getting all excited counting the number of bargains dancing on the head of a pin.


----------



## Spid (Nov 19, 2022)

zwhita said:


> 2 months on and most of the 260 libraries purchased, just to feed a voracious addiction, are still sitting unused. Couldn't care less about BF deals. I could probably delete 90% of them right now and feel zero regret. I'm already back to synths because it's what I know and have recovered all of the $6k loss back into savings.
> 
> So... Luxury or very expensive lesson? Unknown for now, but they will be there if and when I'm ready.


It would be quite interesting to make a list of the libraries you would hold on to…. Just out of curiosity for us


----------



## rMancer (Nov 19, 2022)

Spid said:


> Here we go again… Can’t we close this thread already? Clearly beating the dead horse at this point 🤦‍♂️


You've posted 4 more times in this thread since you announced the passing of the horse. Perhaps the horse needs a second opinion


----------



## nolotrippen (Nov 19, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> This is the argument that I strongly disagree with. The customer shouldn’t have to pay for any of those things regardless of how large or small the market is for a product. Literally nobody could afford a ticket to even the smallest budget movie if this was the case, as it cost a substantial amount of money to produce a low budget movie. Nobody would ever go to the theatre if ticket prices reflected the time/money spent going into production.
> 
> The market for a Vinyl soundtrack of Dune is likely a very small niche market, but it’s still available for the same amount of money as any other vinyl out there.
> 
> The music production community is not small by any means, I see young and old people everyday curious about producing music across a wide range of genres.


Highly recommended:
Basic Economics Hardcover – December 2, 2014​by Thomas Sowell


----------



## Spid (Nov 19, 2022)

rMancer said:


> You've posted 4 more times in this thread since you announced the passing of the horse. Perhaps the horse needs a second opinion


Simply responding to people about off-topic matters. It doesn’t mean the horse needs a second life since the OP matters have been discussed deeply already.


----------



## zwhita (Nov 19, 2022)

Spid said:


> It would be quite interesting to make a list of the libraries you would hold on to…


Just off the top of my noggin


Abbey Road One (because it makes me go "wow")
Anything I have from Eduardo Tarilonte
OT's Arks and Time Macro(more "wow")
Various Spitfire stuff meant for quick results like OACE, BDT and Albion Neo
Most pianos and Soniccouture's keyboard libs
Any drum lib I can use for industrial sounds
PS Oceania, Strezov and 8dio Choirs

I've got so much more to learn before I can even really get started, that there's just no interest in buying them now. And I may never even really get started. Collecting was fun. Time to move on to something much less extravagant from my very limited perspective.


----------



## homie (Nov 19, 2022)

Now stuff is just not overpriced it's actually underpriced. They should offer an option to pay more for you guys who think that's the case. Win-win situation.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Nov 19, 2022)

One thing a lot of users seem to misunderstand, is the definition of expensive and overpriced. 

Overpriced: “To put too high a price or value on.”
Expensive: “Marked by high prices.”

That’s it! You can be a billionaire and still have the common sense to notice when things are expensive and overpriced. Has zero to do with economics or Thomas Sowell (whom I have great respect for) or if a person can afford something. 

The only reason I revisited the topic, was I noticed prices going up with Antares who I’ve used for over a decade, and a lot of sample libraries who are claiming to already have black friday sales going, are not even offering that big of a discount (sonuscore, soniccouture etc)

It’s just weird seeing prices raised for digital goods which have little to no distribution overhead in comparison to physical products. 

Now is the perfect time to revisit the initial question, and one that users should think about more often before parting ways with your hard earned cash


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Nov 19, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> Way underpriced yes, overpriced? Hello no! Yes, you might not have enough money to buy it or afford it but that is not their problem either. Things actually cost money. I buy a piece of paver for 1.50$ but i install it for 20$. Now, there is a lot of mathematics behind that. I also will not work for 200$ a day.


So sample libraries are way underpriced? I can’t say I share that view. Could you give an example? I do understand however buying a sample library for a modest price, and realizing it does just about everything a sample library can do at much higher price points. The Ethera Gold 2.5 stuff for example is incredible value for the money. 

And something being expensive or overpriced has zero to do with what a person can afford. Those are two separate conversations and are not mutually exclusive to each other. However I see that repeated quite often through these 26 pages. 

Cheers!


----------



## Lord Daknight (Nov 19, 2022)

zwhita said:


> They are for dumbasses like me who have no compositional skills and basically just collect them. Out of $14,568 spent, I've lost over $6k and will likely never buy another library. I'd agree they are very inexpensive versus the alternative they are meant to substitute.


No more libraries? That's reasonable for normal libraries but have you heard of Aaron Vent-(Gets tackled to the ground and stabbed 35 times by @muziksculp)


----------



## sprt (Nov 19, 2022)

If anyone has any regrets, I'm always available as a VST trashbag. 🤡


----------



## Polkasound (Nov 20, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> I do understand however buying a sample library for a modest price, and realizing it does just about everything a sample library can do at much higher price points.


"Just about everything" is 100% subjective. Some VI composers, especially those who are new, haven't yet developed the ability to identify and appreciate the differences, however subtle, between a dedicated $400 library and a $40 SampleTank expansion. "They both got those big, boomy drums I'm looking for, so I'll get the cheaper one and complain about the price of the other."

It comes down to what you know. If two similar-sounding libraries have wildly different prices and you can't figure out why that is, by all means purchase the less expensive one. For those who can discern what the more expensive library offers and are willing to pay the higher price for it, it's pretty obvious that library was made for _them_, not you.


----------



## soniccouture (Nov 22, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> a lot of sample libraries who are claiming to already have black friday sales going, are not even offering that big of a discount (sonuscore, *soniccouture* etc)


we have 50% off everything. Is that not big enough a discount in your view?

James


----------



## stodesign12 (Nov 22, 2022)

While I obviously understand the cost of making libraries in general, I think it's a bit unrealistic to think that literally every developer sells them at the minimum price they could (and still be profitable),
that may be the point of this thread. 
It doesn't make sense to me to say "Yes, they are overpriced" or "No, they are not" referring about the entire market.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Nov 22, 2022)

soniccouture said:


> we have 50% off everything. Is that not big enough a discount in your view?
> 
> James


Hey James, I don’t see Sun Drums at 50% off? 

And here in the US at least, the point of Black Friday is to find “insane deals”. Because even at 50% off some libraries are still priced high, and in the end the 50% off doesn’t make for a great deal on some libraries. 

For instance if I purchased Sun Drums, Threnody Strings and Geosonics II, I’m still paying $352 total for those 3 libraries. So an average of roughly $117 per library. I wouldn’t personally consider that some extraordinary black friday deal. That’s just my perspective though as a musician/producer looking for tools to create with. 

Cheers!


----------



## shropshirelad (Nov 22, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Hey James, I don’t see Sun Drums at 50% off?
> 
> And here in the US at least, the point of Black Friday is to find “insane deals”. Because even at 50% off some libraries are still priced high, and in the end the 50% off doesn’t make for a great deal on some libraries.
> 
> ...


I'm appreciative of the way that Soniccouture do business. Their products are of a high quality, their sale prices are generous and they protect customers who show early commitment to new products.


----------



## Nadav (Nov 22, 2022)

Sample libraries are way over priced and people are getting filthy rich almost overnight. I spend my money very carefully on these even though I can buy everything from everyone twice and not bat an eye. I simply don't like to over pay for things I don't think are worth the price. Ot's arks? no thanks. VSL's Woodwinds? nope. Damage 2? Nah.. all great libraries I really would like to have but not worth it even at 50%. They can all be selling their libraies at half the price as the normal price and still get rich. Just my opinion of course (I'm well expecting to be summerly executed in the town square for these blasphemous opinions).


----------



## Nadav (Nov 22, 2022)

I still have to buy some of these if I want to make this kind of music but never what I want, only what I absolutely need.


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Nov 23, 2022)

Spitfire Audio sales also seem a bit lackluster and STILL overpriced right now. The black weekend is live but are the deals really that great?

For example, the Albion Bundle: $1,359.00 vs original price of $1,599 (only $240 price difference) 
-$271 per library
Bernard Herrmann Composer Toolkit: $374 vs $499 regular pricing.

Seeing as these are Kontakt libraries and they are moving on from Kontakt, why are they not heavily discounted if they don’t plan to work with Kontakt or offer support for Kontakt in the future?

Black Weekend Professional seems to be a decent deal, however why not make many more variations with various libraries, or allow users to pick any 5 libraries (with some exclusions of new products) to make it really worth it for the customer? @Spitfire Team

I’ve yet to see any sample library deals from the major developers that strongly favored the customer and would be considered a no brainer deal. Seems the vast majority of deals are still not engineered in a way for the customer to receive a truly amazing deal, or to allow musicians who are not as fortunate as others to grab some composing tools at extreme discounts.


----------



## Nadav (Nov 24, 2022)

Big thanks to Spitfire for the unenticing deals. It’s gonna be easier for me to keep my money this BF


----------



## soniccouture (Nov 24, 2022)

SoftSynthLover99 said:


> Hey James, I don’t see Sun Drums at 50% off?


Because it is a 2022 release - we pledge to customers who buy during the intro 30% off that we won't discount it further during 2022, so that they don't get caught out.
This also applies to Clavichord.

This is stated in the sale T&C - every other product is 50% off.

James


----------



## peterharket (Nov 24, 2022)

Even though its "only" 50%, Soniccouture had one of the crazies deals I ever witnessed this summer: 5 libraries free of choice for 250 USD (and 10 libraries for some 400 USD or something thereabout).


----------



## SoftSynthLover99 (Nov 24, 2022)

peterharket said:


> Even though its "only" 50%, Soniccouture had one of the crazies deals I ever witnessed this summer: 5 libraries free of choice for 250 USD (and 10 libraries for some 400 USD or something thereabout).


Oh wow seriously? Now THAT is the kind of deal I would expect for black friday. Unfortunate those deals aren’t making a return, and seems black friday may not be the best time of year for deals after all.


----------



## Stringtree (Nov 24, 2022)

Waiting years wanting SSS and SCS, dreaming of that sound in my hands and ears. The articulations, the detail, the programming. Heck, no, could I afford either at full price. Discrete sections? Sable brushes? It fit my ears and my fingers. Spent my cash on every high I could find, in the meantime.

Then, _through recurring and entirely predictable annual sales_, I nabbed them when I could. 

Sure, there are imperfections, but these are still flagship libs for SA. I don't want cut-downs for cheap. 

Each party wins, at their level of acceptance at the time of offer. Can't clean up, though I know I should.


----------



## Pappaus (Nov 24, 2022)

All in all this is an interesting discussion. With all respect to any pros who need these products to earn a living, prices for this software are relatively low compared to other professional software items (autocad, adobe, medical software, etc.). For a real fun discussion we could talk about whether pharmaceuticals are overpriced.


----------



## Strezov (Nov 24, 2022)

Yes, when we get to 100k customers per library we’ll get to those 9.99€ full deep-sampled Orchestral samples. Which of course won’t be reused content from 2014!

!BUt! first we’ll have to build a 500+ sq. m. Space so that we get rid of the monthly rent…
… might be nice to also do some solar and wind energy treatment of the building cause those bills are crazy - especially if you have 15 studios in-house with 15 or more people working…
… or maybe we just don’t work during the winter?…
… might be nice to update some of the hardware the team is using cause listening on Yamaha is not the same as ATC or Neumann…
… maybe Focusrite is not the best hardware to have too - how about Apollo?
… just saw that Neumann did a new version of m49v for 8,000-something €. Telefunken C-12 for 10,500€ is also something I’d like to get for strings…
… we used AEA R88 on Afflatus brass which is amazing. I wonder what could have happened if we bought some AEA R440 big ribbons for the trumpets?
… would be great to also change Steinberg’a model to that of FL studio for perpetual lifetime updates and we’ll stack on those for the team…
… might need to stack up on coffee and sodas (maybe some cocaine) to keep up the pace…
… and again - things will be great cause we will reuse old content, put some new flashy clothes on and enjoy those 100,000 appreciators of the ethnic Balkan trumpet.

There’s a lot of speculations here but it’s 5AM here so apologies for the edgy sarcastic comment. Somewhere around 30 minutes after my daughter woke up (early pages of this thread) there is an amazing comment by @re-peat that got neglected by basically everybody. Please read it. Please.

As a composer I want to thank every Sampling visionary who have helped me earn my living writing music. Having the opportunity to present an idea to a director and talking with them about emotion and drama and being able to communicate that vision. Off World by Bunker samples takes an important part in a documentary I scored last year.
Vista by Performance samples and Berlin WW saved my ass for the low-budget Christmas arrangement gig I did a few days ago for the lighting of the Sofia Christmas tree next week.
@soniccouture made the grand marimba which is an essential part of my Surviving Mars soundtrack. Fingerpick by @Mike Greene took part of way-too-many romantic comedies I scored. AVA Prism - albeit a simple drum kit - is part of at least 60 pop songs I produced that I earn royalties from.
Cinesamples Tina Guy cello is on many of my library tracks. I still use East West RA - most lately on Jagged Alliance 3 ost, which was recorded in Sofia/Prague/South Africa.
Spitfire Euphone is all over my soundtrack for “Corpse collector”. Tari’s libraries were part of a huge 8+ hours of music arranging gig based around Nordic and medieval sounds. Not to mention @TheUnfinished - Matt I love you mate, since the first pack you did for me you have been a important part of all the hybrid music I make. Literally your stuff + Spitfire Olafur saved me and my team on this crime-drama TV series last year - with close to nothing of a budget and fucking royalty buyout deal cause of the geolocation.
Are any of these overpriced? Maybe for some. To me they’ve helped me cut corners and experiment (going back to the Surviving Mars Steve Reich marimba which wouldn’t have been possible without the tasty sound of Soniccouture’s work).

I could record that marimba easily but even counting out the money expense of studio, instrument rent, musician fee, contracting fee (not to mention score prep if you’re on the clock) —- but even sometimes time is of the absolute essence and you don’t have that luxury. Even if you sell 100k copies of scene d’amour violins.
Our market is not 100k. We are the nerds of the Sampling industry, being excited about 30 different ways of playing the violin. I wish I was at liberty to say how many different approaches a certain Sampling visionary has recorded AND then has thrown away or kept private cause it’s not up to their standards.
Again, read @re-peat ‘s post. That is what I wish we could all strive for.

To all developers I’ve missed in my post - I love you all. Thanks! And let’s make music and art and experiment.

Now let me get some shut eye….


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Nov 24, 2022)

Strezov said:


> Yes, when we get to 100k customers per library we’ll get to those 9.99€ full deep-sampled Orchestral samples. Which of course won’t be reused content from 2014!
> 
> !BUt! first we’ll have to build a 500+ sq. m. Space so that we get rid of the monthly rent…
> … might be nice to also do some solar and wind energy treatment of the building cause those bills are crazy - especially if you have 15 studios in-house with 15 or more people working…
> ...


/end thread

Love your choirs mate, I'm sure Freya and Wotan have saved many many composers!


----------

