# Bullshit on this forum



## GeorgeHirschmann

To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :

I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!" 

P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me. 

Most Sincerely, 
George


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## zolhof

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI."








Yeap, confirmed!


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## CT

Re-Peat's music is great. Have you heard it?

Kersten was a bit sociopathic himself, more than once. Have you read those threads?

There can definitely be an annoying vibe of gear-grubbing at the expense of anything actually musical on here, no doubt, but tough it out. Don't leave us George, please. I'll stay if you stay.


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## Toecutter

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :
> 
> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!"
> 
> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George


wow this re-peat guy really got in your head... I can't hate you btw, I feel sorry for you, you must be in a bad place. Hope things get better, reach out if you want to talk


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## José Herring

What is this dude going on about? Jesus man, take a chill pill.


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## Jett Hitt

*makes popcorn*


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## Arbee

George (William?), I do appreciate this forum can be frustrating at times but we're making music here and not curing cancer, as someone very talented reminded me early in my career. I do hope you can find a way to make peace with this and find a healthier perspective, and I mean this sincerely with genuine concern.


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## José Herring

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :
> 
> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!"
> 
> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George


As one who have suffered the wrath of re-peat a few times in the past all I can say is, who really cares about that. Will your wife love you any less? Will your kids hate you more? Will life be that much more bleak? Nah, they are just words and one man's opinion about this or that ect....

Over the years you actually start to look upon Re-peat with a little affection. Don't know why. He can be endearing at times.

Plus in one of his tirades I actually got really good a using verbs. In another fairly good at compression. I should ask him to beat up about EQ. Might learn something. 

Doesn't really matter if you like his music or not. We all have lovers and haters of our work. Comes with the territory.


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## ka00

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :
> 
> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!"
> 
> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George



William, I think a lot of us liked your music. It really was just that you came out guns a blazing insulting people on the board, remember? That’s what generated the backlash.


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## José Herring

Oh, and nobody hates you for having an opinion. People took umbrage at you dredging up an old thread that overall was fairly unpleasant from the start.


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## CT

José Herring said:


> Over the years you actually start to look upon Re-peat with a little affection.


He knows what he's talking about! The first time I interacted with him I thought, give me a break, who is this character? But I've come to see that he's a fine composer, that he has unerring ears, and that he has no qualms about reporting what they tell him, which I find a refreshing alternative to how lenient so many are willing to be with this stuff. 

Seems pretty clear that at least some measure of his grandiose poise is tongue-in-cheek, too... I think....


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## Antkn33

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :
> 
> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!"
> 
> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George


Did you forget your meds?


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## David Kudell

Lol, one critic? Try enduring the wrath of 10,000 critics. 😂


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## Gingerbread

Does anyone doubt that "George" is the aggrieved composer?


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## José Herring

Mike T said:


> He knows what he's talking about! The first time I interacted with him I thought, give me a break, who is this character? But I've come to see that he's a fine composer, that he has unerring ears, and that he has no qualms about reporting what they tell him, which I find a refreshing alternative to how lenient so many are willing to be with this stuff.
> 
> Seems pretty clear that at least some measure of his grandiose poise is tongue-in-cheek, too... I think....


He's a button pusher. He pushes your buttons and smashes them in with a ball peen hammer. He wouldn't be able to do that if there wasn't some hint of truth. He over exaggerates at times to make his point. But, man if the world was filled with the same kind of polite people we'd never get anywhere.

In the end, I would end up skimming his post, taking the one or two things that actually made sense and using them and ignoring the rest. 

But, I also approached him to solicit some clarification on something he posted and he couldn't have been more pleasant at explaining something to me when in truth he had no reason to be kind at all after the shellacking we've given each other. So I realized he is also the type of guy that can bury the hatchet and move on. Got to respect that.


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## José Herring

David Kudell said:


> Lol, one critic? Try enduring the wrath of 10,000 critics. 😂


Man, that was funny. 

In spite of the critics, it was a well timed and written cue.


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## José Herring

Gingerbread said:


> Does anyone doubt that "George" is the aggrieved composer?


It's kind of like undercover boss. Undercover composer.


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## David Kudell

José Herring said:


> Man, that was funny.
> 
> In spite of the critics, it was a well timed and written cue.


Thanks man. And really, one of the best things that came out of that was learning to not care what people think about my music and trust my own instincts. And I really try to pass that message on to everyone else, because when I joined this forum I wasn’t even confident enough to post my music in the members composition forum.


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## Sunny Schramm

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :
> 
> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!"
> 
> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George


Says who? xD

People have dreams and try to reach them. For some its easy, for others harder and it takes longer - and thats totally fine. Its also passion, fun talking about and may improve your skills by information. Not everyone got the privilege to get early or later musical education - so its even more impressive if someone without that reach his own personal goals


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## CT

I am so cripplingly self-critical that anything anyone else could say would have to seem complimentary in comparison. I suggest this approach for everyone!


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## Kony

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.


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## Jett Hitt

I didn't follow the original thread, but when it resurfaced a night or two ago, I listened to the whole of William's symphony. It showed great promise. I would have been delighted to have had such a student in my studio back in the day. It was a valiant first effort.


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## Toecutter

David Kudell said:


> And really, one of the best things that came out of that was learning to not care what people think about my music and trust my own instincts.


That's how you develop a thick skin, or rather how this toxic social environment develops one for you. The way you handled the trolls made me instantly think "oh yea he'll be fine, that's a pro".


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## gtrwll

I came here expecting some good old fashioned anarchistic punk rock with a thread title like that in the members’ composition forum...


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## Land of Missing Parts

Mike T said:


> I am so cripplingly self-critical that anything anyone else could say would have to seem complimentary in comparison. I suggest this approach for everyone!


Don't be _too_ hard on yourself. Really, that can be a problem too.


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## bill5

That's it? No political or religious shock jock stuff?

Amateur.


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## heisenberg

This thread reminds me of the bad olde days of IRC, when Gopher, Pine and Telnet ruled the internet. Some goon creates an account and goes apeshit. Then the pile on ensues. Predictable and cute.


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## Kony

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat


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## FireGS

In before thread locked. Mod's are asleep!


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## SquirrelMan

Lol people actually give a shit about what anyone on this forum has to say?! 😂


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## Trash Panda

Most people’s work here gets ignored. That’s way, way, WAY worse than getting ragged on. Gives you the feeling your stuff is so bad it’s not worth crapping on. You should consider yourself lucky.

P.S. - which thread is the one that spawned this?


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## Macrawn

It kinda stinks that there are a lot of people like that in the regular world but everything is amplified among artists who are in some ways more closed minded in their thought process than others. Sometimes that singular way of thinking with strong motivation behind it leads to great art, but results in a sucky person like Ezra Pound. 

I think you might be able to get good feedback here but what I noticed is usually what people get is a person's own personal issues given to them in the form of criticism of the posted work.


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## Jdiggity1




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## PaulieDC

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George


OK, we hate you.

Now that you feel better, write something cool and post it, and let's get on with business, we want to hear what you've got, us losers always welcome new members that can actually compose. Ball's in your court!


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## heisenberg

Macrawn said:


> ... but results in a sucky person like Ezra Pound.


What a toad he was...









THE MAD POETS SOCIETY


The poet Ezra Pound may have been a crazy old man, but does that cancel out his fascism or his treason? When I first started working at the Library of Congress in the 1970s, there were




pleasekillme.com


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## GtrString

The roast of VI Control… LOVE IT!!


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## Jett Hitt

This is clearly a tragic tale of a young man who put forth a herculean effort and was belittled by an armchair quarterback. I was curious enough that I went and listened again. There is some beautiful writing in that piece (especially in the second movement), and there is some long-winded drivel, too. It is very Brucknerarian in its conception, and I dare say that it is as interesting as some of Bruckner's mindnumbing efforts. The third and fourth movements wander on and on ad nauseam, and oh my god there's even a pipe organ. This piece reeks of youth and unbridled grandeur, but wow you gotta respect the effort.

I then decided to go read the infamous critique by re-peat. All I could think was, "What a fucking dick." His whole diatribe is a form of intellectual masturbation, except that most of what he is blathering about is beyond his realm of knowledge. He dwells on the academic world more than a bit, and he clearly understands nothing about it. (No professor was cheering William on.)

At the end of the day, this strikes me as a tale of a thin-skinned young man who did quite a lot of work--some of which was quite good--and he was demoralized by a self-aggrandizing asshole. It is kind of a sad tale, but I for one look forward to hearing William's next effort.


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## SupremeFist

heisenberg said:


> What a toad he was...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE MAD POETS SOCIETY
> 
> 
> The poet Ezra Pound may have been a crazy old man, but does that cancel out his fascism or his treason? When I first started working at the Library of Congress in the 1970s, there were
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pleasekillme.com


Total world-altering genius, though. 

Of course it doesn't necessarily follow that just because you are a dick you must be a genius.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

I learned to enjoy re-peats posts. He's the Alex Jones of V.I.C. It's hilarious, but sometimes you get that weird feeling that some people might actually be taking him seriously.


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## 3DC

This is going to be a long thread but I am prepared.


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## Loïc D

Hey I got very constructive criticism from re-peat that helped my balance my template and rethink my process.
So, can’t blame the guy...


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## RogiervG

First: 
Bad forum section used? (it should be in the drama zone)

second: 
I don't think banning you will help you further.
Usually giving in to wishes of this nature (hate me, ban me), causes harm later on.
You need to learn to coop with critique, especially in the music business. It's a nice, but also very hard world, as many people in the business will tell you.

Anyway.. I do like re-peat (Piet) his comments/reviews/tips, the harsh tone (or so it seems) is actually a wakeup call to take things seriously. His points are usually correct, wrapped in a harsh wrapper of words. A passionate person, that want you to improve in the best possible way. And quality ain't cheap, so harsh words are needed to push the buttons, to go for excellence.

But i have to say, it took me a while, before i understood Piet, and knew his intentions (he is not a bad person at all)


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## Jimmy Hellfire

RogiervG said:


> Anyway.. I do like re-peat (Piet) his comments/reviews/tips, the harsh tone (or so it seems) is actually a wakeup call to take things seriously. His points are usually correct, wrapped in a harsh wrapper of words. A passionate person, that want you to improve in the best possible way. And quality ain't cheap, so harsh words are needed to push the buttons, to go for excellence.


Terrible mentality dude, lol.


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## RogiervG

"i am not your dude, bro " (southpark reference, in case you don't know)

But ok, i'll bite.. why?


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## Alex Fraser

I’ll describe Piet as a double edged sword, a description he’d probably enjoy.

But..that particular thread was a good example of something that I’m not a fan of: The way we sometimes address others online in a way we wouldn’t dream of doing face to face. Avatar to avatar. Internet personalities, not real people.


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## RogiervG

Alex Fraser said:


> I’ll describe Piet as a double edged sword, a description he’d probably enjoy.
> 
> But..that particular thread was a good example of something that I’m not a fan of: The way we sometimes address others online in a way we wouldn’t dream of doing face to face. Avatar to avatar. Internet personalities, not real people.


I am not so sure, he wouldn't use these kind of word choices and expressions in a face to face situation. Some people are more or less unfiltered in nature. I know some in real life, and they say what they think, no matter who is in front of them. Opinions are just that, opinions. They feel, filtering, leaves out the real thoughts.


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## Alex Fraser

RogiervG said:


> I am not so sure, he wouldn't use these kind of word choices and expressions in a face to face situation. Some people are more or less unfiltered in nature. I know some in real life, and they say what they think, no matter who is in front of them. Opinions are just that, opinions. They feel, filtering, leaves out the real thoughts.


Maybe? Dunno. But I’m really talking about the wider way that keyboards embolden prose that wouldn’t happen over a pint or two.

I may have contributed 2000+ posts of nonsense to this place but I’m proud that it’s always stuff I’d say IRL. 🤷‍♂️

But anyway. This thread is due for the bonfire shortly, and rightly so. Let’s not waste too much on it.


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## el-bo

José Herring said:


> But, man if the world was filled with the same kind of polite people we'd never get anywhere.


These qualities needn’t be mutually exclusive. Nothing about being honest means having to be impolite.

This is a general comment. I’ve only had one interaction with the person in question and I perceived nothing negative about it.


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## South Thames

> This is clearly a tragic tale of a young man who put forth a herculean effort and was belittled by an armchair quarterback.



He was born in 1955 according to this:





__





WILLIAM KERSTEN - Vienna Symphonic Library


nav




www.vsl.co.at







> I listened to the whole of William's symphony. It showed great promise. I would have been delighted to have had such a student in my studio back in the day. It was a valiant first effort.


From reading the thread I don't think Kersten was presenting himself a promising student in search of guidance, but rather a master in search of praise. Your whole impression seems to based on the mistaken idea that he was a naive young whippersnapper callously insulted by a bitter cynic.

The truth I think is that he presented what he regarded to be some kind of magnum opus, and didn't get the response he was expecting. Frankly, he's old enough that he should be wise enough to ...errr.... put his efforts in context, to put it tactfully.

But frankly a lot of people are somewhat naive about writing music; nothing wrong with that especially and not sufficient grounds for the wounding critique that Repeat posted. But the provocation for Repeat airing his views in that way was not the music itself but the fact Kersten attacked the forum for not praising or even responding to it after he posted it. That turns it into something else entirely. Some people need taking down a peg or two.



> I for one look forward to hearing William's next effort.



Then you're in luck - a cursory internet search will reveal that further such 'efforts' are not hard to find. I'm sure he'll be flattered that you are taking an interest in following his promising compositional trajectory through that ever-fertile 7th decade!


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## fourier

Spent my lunch break searching for "re-peat" posts and browsing through this referenced two year old thread. Emmanuel Rousseau's post being the hightlight.

I just wonder if those of us that "grew up" with the everything from internet relay chat and early forum usage all the way to the very modern day of social attachment to your profile are less prone to feel defeated by online critisicm?

Albeit a narrow perspective, it seems those who has had to adapt, either in older age or as younglings, are more suceptible to take it as very heavy blows?


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## FireGS

South Thames said:


> He was born in 1955 according to this:


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## JEPA

David Kudell said:


> Lol, one critic? Try enduring the wrath of 10,000 critics. 😂


*WINNER* ❤️


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## Fab

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :
> 
> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!"
> 
> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George


I think you need to go outside man! Have a little break or something.


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## AudioLoco

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> To all the twits who responded to my question about the frustrated sociopath non-composer re-peat (who realized he can't actually write good music so he criticizes people who can) :
> 
> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!"
> 
> P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.
> 
> Most Sincerely,
> George


zzzzzzzzzzzz.....


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## chocobitz825

I have no idea what’s going on here…

but..


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## South Thames

> think you need to go outside man! Have a little break or something.



This has been eating him for 18 months. It'll take more than that.

From a William Kersten post in original thread:



> By the way VI Control - I love that name, it sounds like the future of Mind Control - "we control everything with VI" - yeah right, for morons you control things - I don't give a rat's ass whether you ban me or not, and - in fact - *I WANT to be banned from this toxic Forum*. *PLEASE BAN ME.* Goodbye to you and good riddance.


From the OP on this thread:


> I see you are drones who respond to the control of "VI" - what a joke. The great, glorious "VI." You believe that somehow, you are more impressive because you posted something here. No, in fact, you are just one of an enormous mob of morons who also post here, the Forum of total B. S. by twerps who can't write music so they ask everybody "what do I do? I don't know! Help me! I want to be a composer! How??!!" P. S. - question to VI - Can I be banned? That is my goal. And make sure you say "Done!" when you do it. That will make my day. If you don't say that, I will feel a little sad because I will think that you don't hate me. I want you to hate me, as much as you possibly can. That will feel good to me.


The level of emotional maturity seems strangely comparable.


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## Ben H

This thread should be a sticky.


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## Crowe

Oh no. What did he do this time?

Whatever he did, you shouldn't take it personally. The man is incredibly toxic by default and I'm pretty sure whoever 'appreciates his posts' simply don't know any better yet.

EDIT: Ah, found the thread. Why on earth you would go dredge up that stuff is beyond me. This is just what he does. Leveling stuff he doesn't like akin to a bulldozer.


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## Sarah Mancuso

Welcome back, William! Will you be posting more music for review?


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## Paul Grymaud

Is there a psy in the room ? Or even several ? 
Thank you for making yourself known urgently


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## Tatu

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> He's the Alex Jones of V.I.C.









"MIKE GREENE TURNED THE ALTO-CLEFS GAY!!" 

Nah, that's not Piet. I think he's more like Hannibal Lecter of VIC, who eats our musical efforts with fava beans and a nice chianti.


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## chocobitz825

Tatu said:


> "MIKE GREENE TURNED THE ALTO-CLEFS GAY!!"
> 
> Nah, that's not Piet. I think he's more like Hannibal Lecter of VIC, who eats our musical efforts with fava beans and a nice chianti.


when I imagine what a man baby would look like... it's pretty much that...


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## MauroPantin

Hey guys, nothing to add from me. I just want to be part of the fun and get thrown in the DZ with all you


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## Jimmy Hellfire

RogiervG said:


> "i am not your dude, bro " (southpark reference, in case you don't know)
> 
> But ok, i'll bite.. why?


Well you know. The whole "being assholes to each other makes us improve" angle. The whole tough love, in the sweat of your brow, ora et labora, suck it up to the guy above you, kick the guy below you, defeatist thing.


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## robgb

I'm glad I'm old and have low expectations in regard to others.


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## audio1

Jett Hitt said:


> This is clearly a tragic tale of a young man who put forth a herculean effort and was belittled by an armchair quarterback. I was curious enough that I went and listened again. There is some beautiful writing in that piece (especially in the second movement), and there is some long-winded drivel, too. It is very Brucknerarian in its conception, and I dare say that it is as interesting as some of Bruckner's mindnumbing efforts. The third and fourth movements wander on and on ad nauseam, and oh my god there's even a pipe organ. This piece reeks of youth and unbridled grandeur, but wow you gotta respect the effort.
> 
> I then decided to go read the infamous critique by re-peat. All I could think was, "What a fucking dick." His whole diatribe is a form of intellectual masturbation, except that most of what he is blathering about is beyond his realm of knowledge. He dwells on the academic world more than a bit, and he clearly understands nothing about it. (No professor was cheering William on.)
> 
> At the end of the day, this strikes me as a tale of a thin-skinned young man who did quite a lot of work--some of which was quite good--and he was demoralized by a self-aggrandizing asshole. It is kind of a sad tale, but I for one look forward to hearing William's next effort.


Agreed. The effort, no matter the outcome and how anyone feels about it, was huge. 

Also, no matter this composers feedback expectations, the long negative rant contributed nothing positive. Its easy to criticize. But offering criticisms with no helpful feedback, suggestions or solution does nothing to further discourse.

There was nothing in the rant the composer could have learned from. No take aways other than loads of verbose negativity that actually do amount to BS.

Point is, I see this place a positive place. The rant, which seems to be supported by some here, does not achieve anything positive.


----------



## South Thames

> Point is, I see this place a positive place. The rant, which seems to be supported by some here, does not achieve anything positive.



The rant was not a response to the music in the first instance. Repeat made that clear - he first heard the music and moved on without comment. It was a response to the poster's childish reaction when his music did not get the praise he thought it deserved (posts which he later deleted), at which point some home truths about his music were in order.

That 'reaction' is still germane -- especially since he's returned 18 months later under a pseudonym to stir things up again. I mean really....

As for this place being positive, it can be, but it often isn't. It's the internet. Caveat emptor.


----------



## ka00

audio1 said:


> Agreed. The effort, no matter the outcome and how anyone feels about it, was huge.
> 
> Also, no matter this composers feedback expectations, the long negative rant contributed nothing positive. Its easy to criticize. But offering criticisms with no helpful feedback, suggestions or solution does nothing to further discourse.
> 
> There was nothing in the rant the composer could have learned from. No take aways other than loads of verbose negativity that actually do amount to BS.
> 
> Point is, I see this place a positive place. The rant, which seems to be supported by some here, does not achieve anything positive.



Not saying I support a rant, but at least you’re seeing it in its original form. The thread that started the backlash was heavily edited by the original poster. Lots of insults and other negativity was taken out for posterity. So anyone trying just now to understand what provoked it doesn’t have the full picture unfortunately.


----------



## audio1

ka00 said:


> Not saying I support a rant, but at least you’re seeing it in its original form. The thread that started the backlash was heavily edited by the original poster. Lots of insults and other negativity was taken out for posterity. So anyone trying just now to understand what provoked it doesn’t have the full picture unfortunately.


I read the "review". Are you saying that was a response to deleted content? Or, is the review what started all this?


----------



## South Thames

> I read the "review". Are you saying that was a response to deleted content? Or, is the review what started all this?



The guy posted his symphony. Nobody responded, at which point he rounded on the forum for being full of stupid Zimmerites incapable of appreciating his stuff. Whilst he deleted that posting, you can see some of that same nastiness come out in his posts later on the thread.


----------



## Toecutter

Finished reading that Romantic symphony discussion (5 minutes I'll never get back ) and got to understand a bit more what the hell is going on here... lol you gotta give re-peat credit for being entertaining while being such a jerk. But I can't condone his behavior. I think you can criticize someone else's musical efforts without all the humiliation. Put yourself in other people's shoes for once... it gets uncomfortably personal (at least in Williams discussion) and loses all credibility in my opinion. Kindness is strength!


----------



## ism

Yes, the whole episode really needs to be read less through the lens of the genre of "review" and more as the genre of "internet pissing contest".

And for all that re-peat is being kind of vicious, William kind of started it in attacking the vi-c community as a whole as a bunch of philistine hacks for failing to sufficiently laud his work. Which is what the review responds to, not really the music, which many people though was quite good.

Point being, there's really nothing to see here. The lamentable episode doesn't deserve to be discusses in terms of music criticism or pedagogy. Just another pissing contest on the internet.


----------



## Toecutter

ism said:


> And for all that re-peat is being kind of vicious, William kind of started it in attacking the vi-c community as a whole as a bunch of philistine hacks for failing to sufficiently laud his work.


I get it now, seems like some posts were removed... still I think you fight douchebaggery with kindness. Imagine if re-peat put all that eloquence to good use, seems like a waste to me.


----------



## ka00

Toecutter said:


> Finished reading that Romantic symphony discussion (5 minutes I'll never get back ) and got to understand a bit more what the hell is going on here... lol you gotta give re-peat credit for being entertaining while being such a jerk. But I can't condone his behavior. I think you can criticize someone else's musical efforts without all the humiliation. Put yourself in other people's shoes for once... it gets uncomfortably personal (at least in Williams discussion) and loses all credibility in my opinion. Kindness is strength!


And there's always another unseen layer at play in these forum interactions. A few days ago there was a different new user who started trash talking people and products (outside of normal social bounds), and was also smacked down verbally by forum members trying to defend the people he was insulting.

I looked that guy up, and found his youtube channel where he was performing music and to me it appeared he had a developmental disorder that likely makes social faux pas outside the realm of his awareness.

My point is, you'd pick up a ton of cues about someone you'd interact with in real life that you just don't get on these forums. Someone who you'd want to cut some slack, you end up not cutting slack, and instead your least charitable instincts come to the fore.


----------



## ism

Toecutter said:


> I get it now, seems like some posts were removed... still I think you fight douchebaggery with kindness.


And note that on the original thread, most people did respond in this way. Nearly everyone.


----------



## Jett Hitt

South Thames said:


> He was born in 1955 according to this:


I guess I didn't care enough to research it to this degree, but this does put William's petulance in a new light. Perhaps he was hurling since-edited insults that merited a good thrashing. I can see where his comments could get pretty acerbic, and maybe he needed a good woodshedding. I heard nothing in the music, however, that warranted such venom. There is just no reason to be that nasty about someone's music.


----------



## dzilizzi

ka00 said:


> And there's always another unseen layer at play in these forum interactions. A few days ago there was a different new user who started trash talking people and products (outside of normal social bounds), and was also smacked down verbally by forum members trying to defend the people he was insulting.
> 
> I looked that guy up, and found his youtube channel where he was performing music and to me it appeared he had a developmental disorder that likely makes social faux pas outside the realm of his awareness.
> 
> My point is, you'd pick up a ton of cues about someone you'd interact with in real life that you just don't get on these forums. Someone who you'd want to cut some slack, you end up not cutting slack, and instead your least charitable instincts come to the fore.


This! They say at least 70% of communication is non-verbal. This gets lost in forums like this, at least until you start knowing posters a little better. I personally prefer face to face over other forms. But, since I rarely leave my house these days....


----------



## Crowe

The more I think about this, the more I feel that something is wrong here.

Why is it, that when @Dear Villain requests his work be leveled and torn asunder, the board gets up in arms about it, even going as far as to check up on the man when he disappears for a time after...

But then comes around a person who has arguably actually wounded by unrequested vitrol we make fun of him for it?


----------



## South Thames

> But then comes around a person who has arguably actually wounded by unrequested vitrol we make fun of him for it?



Probably because he came back pretending to be someone else, re-upped the subject and thread, opening the very wound you refer to, and then made an ass of himself with his initial post here 18 months later. Hurt feelings might be a reason people do dumb things but they are not an excuse.


----------



## chocobitz825

Shiirai said:


> The more I think about this, the more I feel that something is wrong here.
> 
> Why is it, that when @Dear Villain requests his work be leveled and torn asunder, the board gets up in arms about it, even going as far as to check up on the man when he disappears for a time after...
> 
> But then comes around a person who has arguably actually wounded by unrequested vitrol we make fun of him for it?


Only thing wrong here is how much time we’ve wasted on a dead topic of no consequence….

we could clearly be spending this time on more important things…like drooling over libraries we don’t need, or complaining about libraries we don’t have.


----------



## Crowe

South Thames said:


> Probably because he came back pretending to be someone else, re-upped the subject and thread, opening the very wound you refer to, and then made an ass of himself with his initial post here 18 months later.


Indeed, fair point. So did we defend him when this initial debacle happened? Or did we excuse Rippy again?

_EDIT: I wasn't there and I may have misunderstood, my issues with The Reaper notwithstanding._


----------



## givemenoughrope

I have almost no idea what's going on here but I probably side with re-peat


----------



## chocobitz825

givemenoughrope said:


> I have almost no idea what's going on here but I probably side with re-peat


I think it’s probably best to side with neither. Both ended up coming off as assholes. Why should we divide the entire forum over their gripes. We’re better than that….for the most part…


----------



## dzilizzi

Shiirai said:


> The more I think about this, the more I feel that something is wrong here.
> 
> Why is it, that when @Dear Villain requests his work be leveled and torn asunder, the board gets up in arms about it, even going as far as to check up on the man when he disappears for a time after...
> 
> But then comes around a person who has arguably actually wounded by unrequested vitrol we make fun of him for it?


It sounds like he was the nasty one first and everyone was responding to his nastiness. And then he deleted his posts to make everyone look bad, which brings out more nastiness. 

Dear Villain has been around for a while and people know him. So when he posted something that seemed off, people were rightly concerned. 

You can't come to a mostly anonymous online forum and expect everyone to love you with your first post. They don't know you. Until you start regularly interacting, most users will not comment too much on your posts. It is part of the problem of not having nonverbal communication available. Say nothing until you know what kind of reaction you will get.


----------



## South Thames

> Indeed, fair point. So did we defend him when this initial debacle happened? Or did we excuse Rippy again?



A lot of people did, yes, but even then he diluted a lot of what would have been good will with his obviously rather petulant tendencies. 

I salute your compassion, but there are much worthier recipients.


----------



## Crowe

chocobitz825 said:


> I think it’s probably best to side with neither. Both ended up coming off as assholes. Why should we divide the entire forum over their gripes. We’re better than that….for the most part…


Aight, I guess that's clear then.


----------



## river angler

ism said:


> And note that on the original thread, most people did respond in this way. Nearly everyone.


I was encouraged too to see the more considered response on this thread.

I hope the original poster recognises this regardless of his intention.

It also reminds me that music is principally an art form that can appeal to one person and then mean nothing to another. That it may go on to earn thousands of dollars is neither here nor there when one listens to it as "a piece of music". 

However this forums members are a mixed bunch of pros, amateurs and hobbyists (in no particular order). Sometimes opinions can be clouded by ambition, lack of or a mixture of the two and indeed sometimes opinions are misjudged for whatever reason…

Do we judge Enio Morricone as a “better” composer than Thomas Newman based on how much their music has sold? Of course not! Similarly do we judge amateurs musical creations often posted on this forum with a condescending bias simply because we know their work is unpublished? One would hope not! At least one would hope that depending on the OP’s original purpose of creating the piece, forum members would react with an appropriate opinion.

Unfortunately just because this forum is designed as an interactive meeting place to discuss the gentle art of music doesn't mean it is immune to upsetting people from time to time when after all forums are indeed only limited to written communication which can of course be open to misinterpretation itself!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

When giving criticism, I try to make it for the benefit of the person receiving the criticism. You know...that whole thing about meeting people where they're at.

Re-peat doesn't do that. He expects people to meet him where he's at. His criticisms are for his own benefit, really. He has a strange psychological need to cruise by this forum every month or so and take swipes at people.


----------



## Bman70

For this thread to really fulfill its educational potential, it needs to have a link to the original referenced thread.


----------



## MauroPantin

I haven't read the original thread. I haven't also encounter issues with re-peat, so this is not directed at him specifically, but just more of a general opinion on the way this place works:

I think there's something to be said about being kind to people. I value expert opinions and feedback from my peers but if you take pleasure in being a jerk to others then, I'm sorry but who gives a shit what you think or your credentials? Being abrasive just for the sake of it is inexcusable, and (IMO) more so under a pseudonym. 

More than once I've pondered setting people around here that are obviously much better at the craft than me to "ignore". Again, I very much value experts, their knowledge and contributions. I studied jazz, I am not classically trained, and I'm a nobody in terms of music biz notoriety, so it is always enlightening to be able to share this space with more accomplished guys and gals and read their input. But having said that, I do feel a small bunch are notorious for frequently getting into heated ad-hominem pissing contests and behaving like dicks. It turns me off from participating in a lot of threads.


----------



## JohnG

I think I lean heavily toward re-peat on this, because the original poster decided to edit his own posts to excuse or extenuate his own behaviour, in order to make re-peat look as bad as possible.

Moreover, as harsh and acerbic as he can be at times, re-peat does others the courtesy of *taking their work with the utmost seriousness*. Some people just want to post to generate applause. Some _say_ they want "honest feedback" but, in fact, they don't. This looks potentially like one of those.

One of the rarest forms of flattery is to get honest, detailed feedback, no matter how unwelcome, from a practitioner of this art. I certainly put re-peat in that category -- one of the most intense, musical people on this forum and, I'd add, one who utterly ignores the "bling" of fame and money when commenting.

I've heard a fair bit of re-peat's music on this forum over many years, and he's a real musician.

Last point -- if the guy was born in 1955 he should have a bit of perspective.


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## chocobitz825

What’s that old saying again?…

“*Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one”*


----------



## prodigalson

JohnG said:


> I think I lean heavily toward re-peat on this, because the original poster decided to edit his own posts to excuse or extenuate his own behaviour, in order to make re-peat look as bad as possible.


100%. I read the initial post that Re-peat wrote and it's just re-peat being re-peat and actually on his more reserved side. The composer posted his piece, petulantly complained when it didn't get any attention and re-peat gave him what he wanted: his feedback in honest, blunt terms (as he does) and thats that. 

Re-peat can say some crazy shit and it's definitely more for his self-indulgence than anything else but he didn't do anything wrong here. The guy was asking for it and re-peat was honest. His criticism was not off the mark and, frankly, tamer than I've seen him in the past.


----------



## SupremeFist

I feel like the original piece could have been improved with more use of Kirk Hunter libraries.


----------



## mediumaevum

Disclaimer:

I have no read the whole thread nor have I actually read the insults from either user. But from my understanding of a brief view of this thread, it is a complaint about one user insulting another (and/or vice-versa), and in all honesty I don't think such threads belong in a forum section with members compositions, trying to recieve help and constructive critique.

In the case I've misunderstood the situation, you can just skip my post here.

---

But in any case, this should be a place for musicians/composers helping each other. If you post your music here, be prepared to recieve critique. It's only meant to be helpful.

However, as you comment on other people's works, you should also try to actually be helpful in your critique. I can't imagine if the mods would tolerate insults. Insults and critique are two very different things.

But this is all just my opinion.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

People are in different places in their life. I think that if you really want to benefit the person receiving the criticism, you need to meet them where they are at and tailor it around their needs, and not the needs of the person giving the criticism.

It's possible to be too harsh, and it will be counterproductive to the person receiving the criticism.

Some people, it just hardens them and makes them more cruel.


----------



## GNP

mediumaevum said:


> .....I can't imagine if the mods would tolerate insults.


If they can even tell the difference between anything, that is lol


----------



## d.healey

chocobitz825 said:


> “*Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one”*


...And they all stink


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## chocobitz825

d.healey said:


> ...And they all stink


Touché, old sport!


----------



## CT

Land of Missing Parts said:


> People are in different places in their life. I think that if you really want to benefit the person receiving the criticism, you need to meet them where they are at and tailor it around their needs, and not the needs of the person giving the criticism.
> 
> It's possible to be too harsh, and it will be counterproductive to the person receiving the criticism.
> 
> Some people, it just hardens them and makes them more cruel.


Yeah. Some people will benefit from humane critique because they are genuinely interested in feedback. Some probably don't really want to hear it, they just want accolades, so if anything will get through to them, it's something less easy to ignore. Of course, re-peat's style might be easy to write off as well.

None of us really knows much of significance about anyone else here. It's a forum. That makes a lot of normal stuff difficult. All this (also this being VI-Control not Composer Control) makes me think that maybe this forum shouldn't be in the business of compositional critique at all. Is it really the place?


----------



## Kent

VI-Cowntrol: Bulls hit on this forum!


----------



## visiblenoise

I am pleasantly surprised that this thread is still here


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Mike T said:


> Yeah. Some people will benefit from humane critique because they are genuinely interested in feedback. Some probably don't really want to hear it, they just want accolades, so if anything will get through to them, it's something less easy to ignore. Of course, re-peat's style might be easy to write off as well.
> 
> None of us really knows much of significance about anyone else here. It's a forum. That makes a lot of normal stuff difficult. All this (also this being VI-Control not Composer Control) makes me think that maybe this forum shouldn't be in the business of compositional critique at all. Is it really the place?


I'd like to push back on this idea that encouragement is an empty thing. Sometimes it's empty. And sometimes it's needed. Just like criticism. I think they are both important, depending on where a person is at. 

A cocky person might need criticism, and a distraught person might need encouragement and a hand to help them get back up. I've seen tragic consequences in my life of people not getting enough encouragement when they needed it, and in fact I've seen that very recently.


----------



## Drundfunk

Well one thing is for sure Vi-Control is never boring. Gotta love this place.


----------



## SupremeFist

Mike T said:


> . All this (also this being VI-Control not Composer Control) makes me think that maybe this forum shouldn't be in the business of compositional critique at all. Is it really the place?


Well, no one's into VIs unless they're a composer, and you pretty much can't be a composer these days without using VIs at some stage. I think it's a useful part of the forum, always with the proviso "be careful what you ask for". Some people post music explicitly asking for constructive criticism, and they receive what appears to me to be constructive criticism that they might indeed find helpful. I've occasionally posted stuff explicitly saying I'm not looking for any opinion on the composition but would welcome any mixing notes, and have received some very helpful notes on the mix. Like most people, I guess, I don't comment on other member's pieces if they're not my bag. (Which, as I understand it, is also re-peat's general rule, unless someone starts insulting everyone.) So I wouldn't like to see any sort of rule against it.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Thing is, sometimes I think VIC is a grumpy ‘ole place full of shitty arguments. Then I go elsewhere on the ‘net and suddenly VIC seems pretty tame in comparison.

Personally, I’d love it if everyone used a real name around here, but I get the reasons for pushback.


----------



## Dave Connor

What’s particularly unfortunate is that William and Piet - being two of the sharpest musicians on the internet - got off on the wrong foot. They both have much to offer and both above this type of squabble.

What happened? As people have observed: William lashed out at the forum (apologized; was truly embarrassed by it and genuinely contrite) and Piet (having no axe to grind and saying nothing initially) went after him for the outburst. Essentially taking William up on his request to have his music listened and responded to. In typical fashion Piet used his unusual discerning and articulate abilities to reduce both the music and William down simultaneously, with a healthy dose of salt poured into the wounds he was rending.

As I said, very unfortunate because these are two very talented, extraordinarily intelligent chaps. Neither is perfect but both are founts of musical knowledge that are delightful to listen to and up the game of those around them.

I wish they would both return to their corner, come out, shake hands and do battle in another way that would edify the musical community far more than threads such as this.


----------



## CT

Land of Missing Parts said:


> A cocky person might need criticism, and a distraught person might need encouragement and a hand to help them get back up.


That's what I said though. Didn't say encouragement is empty, at all!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Mike T said:


> That's what I said though. Didn't say encouragement is empty, at all!


Oops, sorry.


----------



## CT

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Oops, sorry.


No, but you will be when I make an angry thread about you.


----------



## I like music

Genuine question. Where can I find re-peat's music? Would be grateful if someone could point me in the right direction! Thanks.


----------



## Gingerbread

Mike T said:


> All this (also this being VI-Control not Composer Control) makes me think that maybe this forum shouldn't be in the business of compositional critique at all. Is it really the place?


I would strongly disagree with that. I absolutely think that compositional critique is a valued aspect here. I don't view VI Control as solely about vi products, nor should it be. If we're not including the artistic basis of what these libraries are for (and some critique surrounding it), then there's nothing of real substance resulting from it.

98% of members here are perfectly capable of giving and receiving constructive criticism. It's very beneficial. We just don't have drama-filled threads dedicated to _them_, because they are normal, mundane, and perfectly functional.

That's very different from _this_ particular situation, where we have two musically-capable people, neither of whom demonstrate normal social maturity, both demonstrate insecurities about themselves, who got into a slap-fight. Rare aberrations from the norm are not a reason to throw out the norm.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Mike T said:


> No, but you will be when I make an angry thread about you.


For the benefit of the thread (considering the subject matter) I’ll flag this as a joke. 😅
You guys make me chuckle sometimes!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

To be clear, I don't think re-peat is motivated by the desire to actually help people, as folks like to say. He has a need to put people down, and people kind of treat it like he's doing a service, that's all. And sometimes it inadvertently actually does help people too.


----------



## CT

Gingerbread said:


> I would strongly disagree with that. I absolutely think that compositional critique is an valued aspect here. I don't view VI Control as solely about vi products, nor should it be. If we're not including the artistic basis of what these libraries are for (and some critique surrounding it), then there's nothing human behind it.
> 
> 95% of members here are perfectly capable of giving and receiving constructive criticism here. It's very beneficial. We just don't have drama-filled threads dedicated to them, because they are normal, mundane, and perfectly functional.
> 
> That's very different from _this_ particular situation, where we have two musically-capable people, neither of whom demonstrate normal social maturity, and likely both on a certain "spectrum", who got into a slap-fight. Rare aberrations from the norm are not a reason to throw out the norm.


It isn't so much about this particular incident, but what Land o' Missing Parts was saying about calibrating one's feedback to a person's needs, and that I think it's very hard to do that via a forum. Now I don't actually think the member's feedback section or whatever it's called will or should be excised, but it might be useful for those offering feedback to do so in a laboriously personal and considered fashion to avoid stuff like this, and for those submitting stuff to bear in mind the prevailing interests on here which may, I think, not always have much to do with forty minute throwback-romantic symphonies.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Mike T said:


> It isn't so much about this particular incident, but what Land o' Missing Parts was saying about calibrating one's feedback to a person's needs, and that I think it's very hard to do that via a forum. Now I don't actually think the member's feedback section or whatever it's called will or should be excised, but it might be useful for those offering feedback to do so in a laboriously personal and considered fashion to avoid stuff like this, and for those submitting stuff to bear in mind the prevailing interests on here which may, I think, not always have much to do with forty minute throwback-romantic symphonies.


Well put. And whatever the end result sounds like, I have the the utmost respect for anyone who does battle with VI’s long enough to produce a 40 minute symphony.


----------



## Bman70

I just saw the review in question... it strikes me as almost a parody of the old music reviews that composers would receive back in the heyday of major classical music periods: Someone would debut a piece, and a prominent critic would rip it to shreds. Of course this happened to most of the now iconic composers, so it could almost be a compliment as much as anything else.

For it to be genuinely useful, or even pedantically truly impressive, I think Re-peat would need to include more specific complaints, rather than generalities like bombastic and mundane and trite. And, of course, a skilled critic must be able to write about what is good with as much conviction as they describe what is bad. The fact that no time is taken to point out a better example, or where the piece comes closest to being good, and why, in my mind keeps the criticism at the level of a simple roast for entertainment's sake.


----------



## Polkasound

Mike T said:


> All this (also this being VI-Control not Composer Control) makes me think that maybe this forum shouldn't be in the business of compositional critique at all. Is it really the place?


Yes, this is the place. Ideally I would like to see "Your composition will be reviewed by a community member" removed from Members Compositions & Mockups sub-forum and replaced by two rules:

1. Never critique a composition unless it is specifically requested.
2. Any criticism offered should be honest, constructive, and respectful of the composer.


----------



## CT

Alex Fraser said:


> Well put. And whatever the end result sounds like, I have the the utmost respect for anyone who does battle with VI’s long enough to produce a 40 minute symphony.


For sure. I can't even be patient with it for a few seconds.

I guess the takeaway from all this (and other similar incidents) is that maybe the forum could collectively try to be better about actual musical feedback, if it wants that to be a distinguishing feature here. I've seen, and even gotten, some responses that make me wonder why the person bothered to comment, or if they even listened! Not even anything negative necessarily, but just... kind of pointless?

I don't think I've ever said much about anything on here from an actual compositional viewpoint myself, because I don't have any business giving my opinions on that sort of thing. I feel like it takes a particular kind of person to distill their perhaps ample musical knowhow into something that would actually be useful for another person... a teacher, a good teacher. Do we have many good teachers here? Maybe. Re-peat is probably more like J.K. Simmons in Whiplash; will impel some to great heights with their brutality, will cause others to spin into madness.


----------



## Loïc D

Call me noob but when I’m posting a compositions on this forum, I’m ready for harsh criticism.

That’s precisely why I post my stuff here.

Otherwise I would cope with Facebook “like” and Youtube “unlike” buttons.


----------



## re-peat

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I don't think re-peat is motivated by the desire to actually help people,


Today, I've been helping someone out with a question about OT Sphere (and making an audio example of the Sonic Implants Strings while I was there, because someone asked). Yesterday, I've been helping someone out with his quest for a good ragtime piano. Spending several hours on making 13 audio examples to help the OP make the best possible choice. Last Saturday, I was helping in the drum kit thread, again making audio examples to illustrate my point. The day before that, I made audio examples of various tape simulation plugins & hardware for the thread where some of us were discussing these things.

In between all that, I've been giving Loïc some advice on how he might improve his Sheherazade mock-up and also commented on someone's Saint-Saens mockup, posting an audio example for helpful reference. Before that, I've been helping Jason in his quest for a good percussion library and I provided him with extensive, detailed explanations on how I make my neo-60's-70's tracks.
Last week, I've also had a lengthy private conversation with Bill, giving him all kinds of advice on how to make the most of his Bach-Zappa piece.

I also posted a piece of my music.

And that's just the last two weeks of me on V.I.-C.
What have you done in that time, apart from complaining today how unhelpful I am?

_


----------



## CT

Maybe there should be two places to choose from in the Member's Compositions section: Friendly Feedback and Armchair Adornos.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

re-peat said:


> Today, I've been helping someone out with a question about OT Sphere (and making an audio example of the Sonic Implants Strings while I was there, because someone asked). Yesterday, I've been helping someone out with his quest for a good ragtime piano. Spending several hours on making 13 audio examples to help the OP make the best possible choice. Last Saturday, I was helping in the drum kit thread, again making audio examples to illustrate my point. The day before that, I made audio examples of various tape simulation plugins & hardware for the thread where some of us were discussing these things.
> 
> In between all that, I've been giving Loïc some advice on how he might improve his Sheherazade mock-up and also commented on someone's Saint-Saens mockup, posting an audio example for helpful reference. Before that, I've been helping Jason in his quest for a good percussion library and I provided him with extensive, detailed explanations on how I make my neo-60's-70's tracks.
> Last week, I've also had a lengthy private conversation with Bill, giving him all kinds of advice on how to make the most of his Bach-Zappa piece.
> 
> I also posted a piece of my music.
> 
> And that's just the last two weeks of me on V.I.-C.
> What have you done in that time, apart from complaining today how unhelpful I am?
> 
> _


I stand corrected then. You do things to help people, and I respect that. But your critiques are not motivated by that.


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## mediumaevum

Mike T said:


> All this (also this being VI-Control not Composer Control) makes me think that maybe this forum shouldn't be in the business of compositional critique at all. Is it really the place?


VI-control is a forum for composers using virtual instruments for their compositions. 
Whether you compose for a real or virtual orchestra, you still compose. So yes, composition critique is very important.

I just wish I could get a lot more critique/feedback I could learn from on my own works. Not that I'll neccessarily change my already published compositions (sometimes I'll make changes, sometimes not), but in any case it does help me develop better techniques for my next compositions.

"Well done" comments are nice to have, but they don't really give you feedback for improvements. However, they do serve as a guideline to "what works" whereas improvement comments serve as a guideline to "what doesn't work" or "try this instead".

They are equally important, in their own unique way.


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## Mike Greene

This thread may be headed for the Drama Zone eventually, but we're leaving it up (for now, at least) because I think the general caring vibe that many here have shown is very encouraging, and isn't something that needs to be hidden away in the DZ. I'll add myself to the chorus of people inviting William to post more pieces here.

To that end, I've unbanned William. I've also banned the "George" profile, though, since it's the same guy (or at minimum, sharing the same modem), and it would be better for William to post as William.

FWIW, the original thread is here. As people here have already clarified, there are a number of post deletions and edits, so context is lost, but I link it here because it's helpful to know that after William's third "request for comment" (which to his credit, William did later apologize for), there were a dozen highly complimentary posts before Piet's. So the glass is 12/13 full, which isn't too bad.  So William, please feel free to return. Piet is a very honorable guy. Harsh at times, but honorable and certainly not petty, so the previous episode is water under the bridge, and I highly doubt he'll comment on your pieces unless he has something genuinely helpful to say.

Lastly, Piet didn't start this thread, so he shouldn't be put in a position where he needs to defend himself. If you don't like his posts (I sure as hell do, but I can understand that some don't), then don't read them. In the same way I think William should be cut a little slack, Piet shouldn't be under attack either.


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## Markrs

In a way we all play roles in a forum. Being a beginner, most comments on a piece of work from me are likely to be positive. The reason is simple, most of the work I hear is very good, often well beyond what I can do. So I will often listen to it and probably leave a nice comment.

As I can't hear, what chords are used, what key it is in, if there are parallel fifths or octaves or if a modulation could have been done better. These are all beyond my ability. However, there are many on here that can do that, and it is an important role they do, to help many of us improve.

I think we should always think of others when we write, as it is a pretty thin form of communication compared to all the subtle communication we do in voice and body language. 

It is also important that when posting work that people might not do much more than give you a "like". In part because they might be like me and really unable to give much feedback, beyond some very basic feedback. It could also be due to the time that giving feedback takes, especially as there are only so many on here with the knowledge and experience to do it at a high level.

So we also need to be understanding when the work we may have spent a long time on doesn't get many comments.


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## youngpokie

Bman70 said:


> I just saw the review in question... it strikes me as almost a parody of the old music reviews that composers would receive back in the heyday of major classical music periods


I think the comments were harsh but I didn't feel this was a parody or malicious or bad review at all. The entire post makes perfect sense in the context of the music in question and of that old thread in itself.

First - this wasn't critique of some 8 bars of music and "what library did you use" type of post. He clearly acknowledged that the composer is educated and technically accomplished. The complexity of the music was on different level than what is common here and I felt his comments were appropriately calibrated on big-picture questions: does this composer have anything original to say despite the obvious training and skill, is this formulaic, form, etc. I feel when someone is technically accomplished, the critique must move up a notch and deal with next layer of questions.

Secondly, I find re-peat's commentary more helpful than _many_ of the preceding reviews. Yes, they are very positive and highly complementary but they all boil down to "great job!", "wow!" and "OMG 40 minutes!". I agree that the complexity and length is a big achievement on its own these days, but I can't see how this is helping someone capable of writing and orchestrating 40 minutes of complex symphonic music.


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## tack

Land of Missing Parts said:


> But your critiques are not motivated by that.


But nor are they exactly motivated by a desire to attack or demoralize either. If there's one thing I've learned about Piet, it's the unwavering respect -- I would even say _reverence _-- he has for music, and the one way to provoke ire from Piet is to do anything he perceives as disrespectful to the art and artists he admires. (Or be a sample library developer and label a haphazard product as "professional." Now _that_ will wind him up.)

His words can be biting, no doubt about it, but when you demonstrate an interest in improving yourself, I've never seen Piet do anything other than bend over backwards to help. I'll see him reply to some passing question with an essay of deeply contemplated content, backed up by many examples, often of his own making.


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## Jett Hitt

It is pretty annoying that posts were edited/deleted thus removing the context of re-peat's critique. As it stands, it seems like the review just comes out of nowhere and lambasts William for no apparent reason other than some inflated sense of self-importance. Therefore I apologize to @re-peat for maligning his out-of-context critique, some of which I even agreed with.


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## Land of Missing Parts

tack said:


> But nor are they exactly motivated by a desire to attack or demoralize either. If there's one thing I've learned about Piet, it's the unwavering respect -- I would even say _reverence _-- he has for music, and the one way to provoke ire from Piet is to do anything he perceives as disrespectful to the art and artists he admires. (Or be a sample library developer and label a haphazard product as "professional." Now _that_ will wind him up.)
> 
> His words can be biting, no doubt about it, but when you demonstrate an interest in improving yourself, I've never seen Piet do anything other than bend over backwards to help. I'll see him reply to some passing question with an essay of deeply contemplated content, backed up by many examples, often of his own making.


I respect that.

I guess I would just say that music is important and all, but people's well-being is more important to me by far. And so I place a higher value on treating people well than I place on any music.


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## davidson

re-peat said:


> Today, I've been helping someone out with a question about OT Sphere (and making an audio example of the Sonic Implants Strings while I was there, because someone asked). Yesterday, I've been helping someone out with his quest for a good ragtime piano. Spending several hours on making 13 audio examples to help the OP make the best possible choice. Last Saturday, I was helping in the drum kit thread, again making audio examples to illustrate my point. The day before that, I made audio examples of various tape simulation plugins & hardware for the thread where some of us were discussing these things.
> 
> In between all that, I've been giving Loïc some advice on how he might improve his Sheherazade mock-up and also commented on someone's Saint-Saens mockup, posting an audio example for helpful reference. Before that, I've been helping Jason in his quest for a good percussion library and I provided him with extensive, detailed explanations on how I make my neo-60's-70's tracks.
> Last week, I've also had a lengthy private conversation with Bill, giving him all kinds of advice on how to make the most of his Bach-Zappa piece.
> 
> I also posted a piece of my music.
> 
> And that's just the last two weeks of me on V.I.-C.
> What have you done in that time, apart from complaining today how unhelpful I am?
> 
> _


Any chance you could pop round and make me some dinner?


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## CT

All this, plus some recent personal spats on here, has got me thinking I should just start my own competing forum. I'll call it MikeBanned. No... TheBoredSound. Yes that's the one.


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## EgM

This is one hell of a drunk post I wouldn't love waking up to 

But in all seriousness, in 35 years as a composer/performer, the very last place I'd ask for a song review is a forum loaded with tens of thousands of angry underpaid composers


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## Alex Fraser

Mike T said:


> All this, plus some recent personal spats on here, has got me thinking I should just start my own competing forum. I'll call it MikeBanned. No... TheBoredSound. Yes that's the one.


Can I be a mod?


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## b_elliott

re-peat said:


> Today, I've been helping someone out with a question about OT Sphere (and making an audio example of the Sonic Implants Strings while I was there, because someone asked). Yesterday, ...


FWIW, I earlier received re-peat's review of my Bach-Zappa variation (a la Uncle Meat). It was the wake up call I needed. 

A week later Piet kindly helped guide some musical decisions I needed to make while I was creating A Rush to Mars. Immensely helpful. 

Thanks for what you do and post Piet!


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## marclawsonmusic

I normally don't like to jump into threads like this, but I will speak up and say that @re-peat has been one of the most thoughtful and helpful people I've ever met on this forum. He has offered me (very good) advice on multiple occasions both publicly and privately - even going as far as preparing sound examples or offering plugin settings, etc. He also graciously volunteered his time to help with the UI for OmniTag - something I am immensely grateful for.

In cases where I've seen Piet give someone hell, they generally deserved it - at least in my view. Hubris and arrogance seem to be the culprit in those cases.

Anyway, for my part I consider Piet a friend and am grateful for his valuable contributions.


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## ism

I'm grateful for Piet’s many generous, knowledgeable and extremely valuable contributions to this forum also.

But, this



marclawsonmusic said:


> In cases where I've seen Piet give someone hell, they generally deserved it - at least in my view. Hubris and arrogance seem to be the culprit in those cases.



made me laugh a little bit.


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## Mike Greene

Piet also created the VI-Control logo when we updated the site a couple years ago. (I like this logo a zillion times more than the old one. Dude is talented.) Not surprisingly, he wouldn't let me pay him for it.


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## Markus Kohlprath

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I stand corrected then. You do things to help people, and I respect that. But your critiques are not motivated by that.


Honestly in my view they are. At least for those who appreciate an honest view and not stay in their personal dream theater of how good they are.


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## Land of Missing Parts

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Honestly in my view they are. At least for those who appreciate an honest view and not stay in their personal dream theater of how good they are.


I get it. Some people are in a good place in life and being ripped a new one is helpful for them. But some people aren't, and it is counterproductive, and can even have tragic consequences.

So I'm just saying that if your motivation is truly to help people, you put aside your ego and try to figure out what the other person needs.


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## Dear Villain

Shiirai said:


> The more I think about this, the more I feel that something is wrong here.
> 
> Why is it, that when @Dear Villain requests his work be leveled and torn asunder, the board gets up in arms about it, even going as far as to check up on the man when he disappears for a time after...
> 
> But then comes around a person who has arguably actually wounded by unrequested vitrol we make fun of him for it?


Thanks for "summoning" me to the thread, Shiirai. I would certainly have missed this drama if not for your post!

I know William quite well, outside of this forum. He is a sensitive composer, whose only rewards writing music, are self-expression and hopefully, appreciation from others. Like myself as a composer. Like many of you. William's motives are not profit. I suspect, after decades of screaming in the forest and not being heard, he's reached a boiling point. It is always unfortunate when an individual relies on others for validation. When I saw William's initial thread, including the comments from re-peat, I reached out and discussed the whole incident with William. He understood where he was wrong, and apologized to the forum for his outburst. He also has acknowledged his tendency to act bluntly and irrationally on numerous other occasions. I'm sure he wrestles with his actions and tries to keep himself in check, with varying levels of success.

My own forum experiment, in which I solicited intentional criticism and scorn, was designed to help me break free from the same cycle of anonymous validation that William and most other composers may or may not realize they pursue. I knew that my string quartet piece, Phoenix Rising, was one of my personal favourites. I knew that I've accomplished a "fair bit" in my professional life as a musician. And yet, if I received thirty compliments on a piece, I would focus on the one criticism...just like William. After doing my experiment, I truly felt free of the shackles that had bound me prior. I now post music simply for the exposure, the odd compliment that may come my way, and of course, the inevitable criticism that eludes no man or woman that dares create art. 

I hope, if William reads this, he will remember that nobody has the power to control how you feel about your own work. If you love your Romantic Symphony...if you're proud of the body of work you've created, then any and all opinions others may have, whether they be rooted in truth or malice, should in no way diminish your accomplishment. Your work is your purpose. Remember, even the most talented, intellectually-superior internet critic has his own demons, his own hang-ups, his own insecurities. Every human being wants to belong, to feel their work has meaning, and to connect with others. If you wish to meet people that radiate sunshine, don't be a dark cloud...be a damn ray of sunshine. And to beat the metaphor to death: if others are casting shade on your sunshine, fight back with more rays of sunshine. Be a f'in Care Bear! Blast them sons of bitches with your rays of love, and break their "meanness" down until they reach out for a big hug and embrace. 

So, I leave you with this: hug your enemy and make him your friend. Then continue to write the music you want to write and share it for the few that may take joy in it.

Cheers,
Dave


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## CT

Alex Fraser said:


> Can I be a mod?


Yes. Sending you a list of who is allowed and who is pre-emptively banned for nitwittery.


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## chocobitz825

Man…someone score this thread! What a wild ride! Anger, frustration, bitter rivalry, but then compassion, love, growth, change and understanding…

bravo VI-control

bravo


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## CT

I wrote some dramatic underscore for the Staypuft reveal (I believe I titled it "Staypuft Revealed") but somehow this feels like a more somber occasion.


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## Stringtree

Sorta glad I read this whole thing. I remember the original thread. 

Message to self: Self, be humble, nobody cares about your music unless you are 100% not lazy and burn all the fuel in the tank for your efforts. It only gets personal when it gets personal. Cool.


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## ryans

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I get it. Some people are in a good place in life and being ripped a new one is helpful for them. But some people aren't, and it is counterproductive, and can even have tragic consequences.
> 
> So I'm just saying that if your motivation is truly to help people, you put aside your ego and try to figure out what the other person needs.


I agree it's important to consider we all deal with criticism differently. Speaking for myself, I'm a bit extreme perhaps as I thrive on the negativity. Being challenged is a motivator. I don't know why. 

I feel like many if not most people are the opposite though so I personally would not default to this approach when giving feedback to someone I don't know.


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## marclawsonmusic

Dear Villain said:


> Then continue to write the music you want to write and share it for the few that may take joy in it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


Thank you for sharing, Dave. Your post was very insightful and kind. 

For my part, I have learned that much of my own self-doubt comes from childhood - that time when we (at least some of us) learn to doubt our perceptions and seek to satisfy an 'external critic' (normally a parent or authority figure). As such, maybe some of the angst from William (or whoever) can be understood or explained.

But railing at random people only serves to put him (or whomever) at odds with folks who actually 'get it' (and some who care). So it's self-destructive in the end. Very sad, this human-artist cycle we are in. After all, we are just trying to create something beautiful.

Anyway, like you said, all we can do is "keep writing the music (we) want to write and share it for the few that may take joy in it." Good perspective, there.


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## Arbee

marclawsonmusic said:


> Anyway, like you said, all we can do is "keep writing the music (we) want to write and share it for the few that may take joy in it." Good perspective, there.


If we just want to do our own thing then I agree totally. But if we want to keep developing and improving then I suggest it requires a great deal of self-awareness and the willingness to absorb any and all criticism, even if we ultimately dismiss it. And in my own experience, harsh criticism delivered with good intentions can accelerate progress dramatically.

As someone I respect immensely once said publicly to a very confident musical director in the middle of a TV rehearsal (paraphrasing) "you say you've had 20 years of experience but it sounds to me like you've had one year of experience 20 times.". After decades of observing human behavior in various fields, I've come to believe that self-awareness and being at least open to critique is the difference.


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## marclawsonmusic

Arbee said:


> But if we want to keep developing and improving then I suggest it requires a great deal of self-awareness and the willingness to absorb any and all criticism, even if we ultimately dismiss it.


Couldn't agree more! But part of taking criticism is realizing the subjective (creative ideas) from the objective (craft and execution). I think that is an important distinction.


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## Mike Fox

Alex Fraser said:


> Thing is, sometimes I think VIC is a grumpy ‘ole place full of shitty arguments. Then I go elsewhere on the ‘net and suddenly VIC seems pretty tame in comparison.
> 
> Personally, I’d love it if everyone used a real name around here, but I get the reasons for pushback.


Totally. VI is actually incredibly civil and tame compared to some of the other forums I frequent. I tend to spend more time on here, because people seem to be more rational, genuine, and caring.


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## Trash Panda

Some day, I hope to create something good enough to draw the ire of re-peat. Almost seems like a rite of passage.


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## Bman70

Mike Fox said:


> Totally. VI is actually incredibly civil and tame compared to some of the other forums I frequent. I tend to spend more time on here, because people seem to be more rational, genuine, and caring.


Coming from Twitter to here is like entering a monastery... you just naturally want to whisper


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## thesteelydane

I will not comment on the substance of the thread, just say that years ago I asked a question about jazz double bass VIs and Re-peat posted a long and very helpful reply full of audio examples. It must have taken hours to make. So he is helpful.


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## Thundercat

Dear Villain said:


> Thanks for "summoning" me to the thread, Shiirai. I would certainly have missed this drama if not for your post!
> 
> I know William quite well, outside of this forum. He is a sensitive composer, whose only rewards writing music, are self-expression and hopefully, appreciation from others. Like myself as a composer. Like many of you. William's motives are not profit. I suspect, after decades of screaming in the forest and not being heard, he's reached a boiling point. It is always unfortunate when an individual relies on others for validation. When I saw William's initial thread, including the comments from re-peat, I reached out and discussed the whole incident with William. He understood where he was wrong, and apologized to the forum for his outburst. He also has acknowledged his tendency to act bluntly and irrationally on numerous other occasions. I'm sure he wrestles with his actions and tries to keep himself in check, with varying levels of success.
> 
> My own forum experiment, in which I solicited intentional criticism and scorn, was designed to help me break free from the same cycle of anonymous validation that William and most other composers may or may not realize they pursue. I knew that my string quartet piece, Phoenix Rising, was one of my personal favourites. I knew that I've accomplished a "fair bit" in my professional life as a musician. And yet, if I received thirty compliments on a piece, I would focus on the one criticism...just like William. After doing my experiment, I truly felt free of the shackles that had bound me prior. I now post music simply for the exposure, the odd compliment that may come my way, and of course, the inevitable criticism that eludes no man or woman that dares create art.
> 
> I hope, if William reads this, he will remember that nobody has the power to control how you feel about your own work. If you love your Romantic Symphony...if you're proud of the body of work you've created, then any and all opinions others may have, whether they be rooted in truth or malice, should in no way diminish your accomplishment. Your work is your purpose. Remember, even the most talented, intellectually-superior internet critic has his own demons, his own hang-ups, his own insecurities. Every human being wants to belong, to feel their work has meaning, and to connect with others. If you wish to meet people that radiate sunshine, don't be a dark cloud...be a damn ray of sunshine. And to beat the metaphor to death: if others are casting shade on your sunshine, fight back with more rays of sunshine. Be a f'in Care Bear! Blast them sons of bitches with your rays of love, and break their "meanness" down until they reach out for a big hug and embrace.
> 
> So, I leave you with this: hug your enemy and make him your friend. Then continue to write the music you want to write and share it for the few that may take joy in it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


Truly that darkness "out there" is just a mirror of the inner demon we all carry...so to make friends with one's shadow is to make friends with the darkness "out there," which isn't really out there anyway...

Very eloquently put; some of it worthy of framing.

Mike


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## Guy Bacos

What is sad here, is that if William had been more patient before getting feedback, which led to his outburst, totally out of line, re-peat would not have jumped on him the way he did, surely there would still have been criticisms, perhaps a few harsh comments, and re-peat is an excellent musician and articulated poster, but there might also have been a mix of constructive criticism and encouraging feedback.

I've had my share of battles with re-peat, and I also got some harsh comments, but in the end, I think I was the wisest since I was able to recognize what made sense in his comments and what was non-constructive, and consequently improved the piece. I don't agree that we should totally ignore the criticism, sometimes yes, depending on the source, other times filter the content, knowing what part of the criticism you can benefit from. It's kind of an art to use criticism to your advantage.


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