# Spitfire Chamber Strings or Vienna Chamber Strings?



## Ray (Oct 6, 2019)

Everything pretty much in the thread title. If you could provide additional info about why would you choose one over the other, it'd be great.


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## eph221 (Oct 7, 2019)

I like vsl because they're dry. Both are good.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 7, 2019)

They're both really good.

The confusing thing is that they're both branded "chamber strings", but they're actually very different.

I would describe the Spitfire library as "cinematic small ensemble", whereas with VSL, the "chamber" can be taken quite literally. Does that make sense?


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## Batrawi (Oct 8, 2019)

I only own SCS, yet my ears believe that VSL's waaay better


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## Michael Stibor (Oct 8, 2019)

Batrawi said:


> I only own SCS, yet my ears believe that VSL's waaay better


Mine do too, but I own neither. Can you please elaborate?


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## jaketanner (Oct 8, 2019)

I have SCS, but this is the first time I've listened to VSL Chamber strings, and I think they're awesome sounding for sure. The big question, well actually two: How much programming do you need afterwards to get them to sound how they sound in the demo, and also, keep in mind that both library demos/walkthroughs were played to the strengths of each library. What you hear on VSL's site is played to the strengths, as is SCS...as it should to sell the library, but just compare YOUR style to that of either developer's demos...which is closest to how you would use the library? That's the one you should go for...price wise, they're relatively the same. both are great...SCS is very playable, can't speak for VSl...but it does sound great! Much more intimate due to the dry space, and slightly smaller than SCS.

I think both are considered chamber...just that SCS is recorded in a very ambient hall, so it sounds larger, and also has violin 2...VSl doesn't, so not sure if that's an issue.


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## Ben (Oct 8, 2019)

I hope you don't mind. Just want to add some information:

- We have the VI Chamber Strings I and II (muted) (https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Strings_Complete/Chamber_Strings_Bundle), and also the SYNCHRON-ized Chamber Strings (https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Package/Synchron_Chamber_Strings) with remastered and re-edited sample content. The SYNCHRON-ized libraries have included room-placement (panning and reverb through IR or algorithmic reverb) that can be disabled, in case you want to use your own reverb.

- I would also suggest to take a look at the Dimension Strings. The sound is really flexible by using only as many player as you want, and / or combining different articulations at the same time. Available as bundle or in the three pacakges for "normal", muted and sul tasto articulations.




__





SYNCHRON-ized DIMENSION STRINGS - Vienna Symphonic Library


The Vienna Dimension Strings Collections were recorded in homogeneous groups, capturing all of the human interactions of a live performance, allowing you to access each voice individually.




www.vsl.co.at





- If you buy any software product / library through our website, you can return everything or just parts of your purchase within 30 days. So feel free to test our libraries!


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 8, 2019)

Dimension Strings and Chamber Strings nearly have the same articulations, the latter is only missing a non-vibrato/vibrato option for the legatos and col legnos.

I'm absolutely in love with Dimension Strings, so I recommend these, also for the money. They used to be much more expensive in the past. They need more work, but the time and frustration (while setting them up) is worth it.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, both are VSL's best string libraries.


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## robgb (Oct 8, 2019)

Ben said:


> - If you buy any software product / library through our website, you can return everything or just parts of your purchase within 30 days. So feel free to test our libraries!


While I complain about your dongle, I do have to say that this is great and what EVERY developer should be doing, considering the cost involved.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 8, 2019)

Some additional info: in the VSL Synchronized Chamber Strings, you do get a set of 2nd violins. The sound is not necessarily dry - as this rendition of the library comes with the Synchron Strings IRs, it actually does feature a quite convincing ambience and correct seating (can be turned off). SCS is quite flexible thanks to the mic positions it comes with, and provides various colors and nuances depending on how you balance the mics. It can however never quite get really dry and upfront - even the close mic alone has quite a bit of rich ambience.

The VSL ensemble is actually bigger than the SF ensemble (6-6-4-3-2 vs. 4-3-3-3-3). You can also kind of tell by the sound. SCS has unexpected low end for an ensemble of this size - this is however also due to the massive ambient sound of the library. SCS generally sounds really huge, that's mainly the "AIR effect". Going back to the section sizes: conversely, the high strings in SCS to my ears tend to sound a lot more scratchy and thinner than VSL - more grainy and delicate, which is not necessarily a bad thing. There's something about the sound that's not just "chamber", but also "TV drama", even a bit "rootsy".

The VSL strings sound totally different - a fuller, firm, elegant, consistent, creamy sound, and truly has that chamber aesthetic in the classical sense of the word.

The tuning in VSL Chamber Strings is perfectionist. That's very reliable and sounds like chamber music should sound, but can be perceived as sterile by some. SCS is lively and also a bit "lazy" - that makes for a greater sense of separation and more texture, but can sometimes also be a bit troublesome.

VSL is to me the clearly more nimble library. With SCS, you kinda gotta fight and wrangle it a little bit, depending on how intricate the parts are, and I'm using it less for that kind of thing, but more for its often really enchanting sound. You tend to write to each libraries' strengths, right?

So as said before, these are actually very different libraries with very different strengths. Of course it's not as if you couldn't possibly realize something with one library which the other one is particularly good at, and vice versa, but they definitely have their distinct characteristics.

And, since Dimension Strings were mentioned: definitely worth a very strong consideration too. Perhaps my favorite string library of all. It also basically retired the Chamber Strings for me, as you can set up your own section sizes and the general sound is just even more pristine, transparent, "3D", and the possibilities are manifold.


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## yellowtone (Oct 8, 2019)

I will listen to the demos tonight but how different are VSL’s Synchronized Camber Strings vs. Dimension strings? We’re these different samples or is Dimension just remastered with additional functionality to add/remove players? Are the sound characteristics different?


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## jaketanner (Oct 8, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> I will listen to the demos tonight but how different are VSL’s Synchronized Camber Strings vs. Dimension strings? We’re these different samples or is Dimension just remastered with additional functionality to add/remove players? Are the sound characteristics different?


I’m fairly certain dimension Strings is a completely different recording. Since it has individual players versus ensembles. So you can create section sizes from solo to 8 players I believe and everything in between.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 8, 2019)

It's a completely different library, 100% different samples. It's a way bigger and deeper library (832.908 samples, compared to the 93.342 of Chamber Strings).


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## yellowtone (Oct 8, 2019)

Thanks @jaketanner and @Jimmy Hellfire. What about the sound? Is it extra effort to get a cohesive chamber sound in dimension? Seems likely not from a developer like VSL but curious. Setting up in front of my computer to listen to demos as I type...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 8, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Thanks @jaketanner and @Jimmy Hellfire. What about the sound? Is it extra effort to get a cohesive chamber sound in dimension?



I don't think it is, actually. To me, the library has an intimate, chamber-like sound anyways. It's not that many players, after all, and never really sounds "big" as in "cinema" big. The main thing about being able to control the single players or desks is having much more flexibility for detailed writing, divisi, etc., than you could have from "standard" string libraries. That's the big advantage of the modular ensemble - not so much that it can go from super-small to "full symphony" (which it doesn't).

Of course, there's still a sonic advantage in choosing exactly how many players you want. If I want a chamber sound, I just mute the players that I don't want to use in my pre-configured template and load the "classical" mixer preset. That's a quite good starting point.

The template has every player loaded and ready, so by default, the full ensemble is playing. I wanted to go from 8 first violins to 6, I just mute the outputs of player 7 and 8. It still works exactly the same, it's just less players playing. I don't have to do anything at all in the sequencer, the MIDI track etc. I can turn the players back on whenever I want.

If RAM is an issue, you'd have to delete the players manually, which is quite a bit of clicking around.

VSLs own standard "factory" setup already works like this. I still had to build my own, because I prefer different handling of articulations and have my own workflow. And I will say that it took me DAYS to complete it. THAT was the extra effort ...


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## Ben (Oct 8, 2019)

robgb said:


> While I complain about your dongle, I do have to say that this is great and what EVERY developer should be doing, considering the cost involved.


One of the reasons we can provide such a 30 days return policy is the USB copy protection. It also comes with its advantages...
The other reason why we provide this service: We are confident that our products are worth their money.


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## Ray (Oct 8, 2019)

Ben said:


> - If you buy any software product / library through our website, you can return everything or just parts of your purchase within 30 days. So feel free to test our libraries!



This is incredible, definitely other developers should be doing it too!


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## Ray (Oct 8, 2019)

Ben said:


> - I would also suggest to take a look at the Dimension Strings. The sound is really flexible by using only as many player as you want, and / or combining different articulations at the same time. Available as bundle or in the three pacakges for "normal", muted and sul tasto articulations.



Is there a deep walkthrough of Dimension Strings with all the articulations?


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## Ray (Oct 8, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> price wise, they're relatively the same. both are great...SCS is very playable, can't speak for VSl...but it does sound great! Much more intimate due to the dry space, and slightly smaller than SCS.



Is it me, or does SCS sound squeaky, more rough than any Vienna Library? I absolutely love the wide palette of articulations that SCS offers, but I think they lack the homogenous sound of VSL. I'm looking for a string library that can be both sharp (col legnos, spics, etc) and sweet, homogenous (legatos, of course). Think bipolar, haha.
And with lots of articulations, basically all the articulations Spitfire has.


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## Ben (Oct 8, 2019)

Here are some videos and audio demos:



VI version walktrough:




__





DIMENSION STRINGS BUNDLE - Vienna Symphonic Library


Vienna Dimension Strings is by far the most ambitious production in the history of the Vienna Symphonic Library. The 24 string players were recorded with discrete microphones for each player, giving you access to each voice individually.




www.vsl.co.at





Some demos:




__





SYNCHRON-ized DIMENSION STRINGS - Vienna Symphonic Library


Die 24 Streicher der Vienna Dimension Strings Collections wurden in homogenen Gruppen mit sämtlichen Interaktionen des Live-Musizierens aufgenommen und bieten Zugriff auf jede einzelne Stimme.




www.vsl.co.at


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## yellowtone (Oct 8, 2019)

OK, after listening to the demo tracks for VSL Chamber I and II, VSL Synchron Chamber, VSL Dimension, and SA SCS regular and pro, plus the walk through for Dimension, my first take away is that the context is impossible to ignore. All the VSL demos are in the classical style vs. SA which is much more cinematic. This makes it difficult to compare clearly. As @Jimmy Hellfire stated, it sounds like it would be possible to make these libraries do either classical or cinematic, but I get the sense from the demos that getting a very classical sound from SCS might be harder than getting a cinematic sound from VSL (especially when blending with WW's and/or Brass. Between the VSL offerings, I actually found I didn't care for the Synchron Chamber sound as much (maybe I just didn't like the demos as much?), but both the original Chamber I and II and the Dimension strings sound amazing and I'm definitely leaning towards them vs. the SA SCS. Between the Chamber I and II and Dimension, leaning towards Dimension. A few questions for the experts (definitely including @Ben, really appreciate your insights here!):
1. I really like the idea of controlling the number of players with Dimension, but I see that VSL doesn't have 2nd Violins (except in Synchron). Are most folks using the transpose trick to fake a 2nd violins section? Or - could you use 4 1st violins for 1st, and the second 4 1st violins for 2nd? Thus a 4, 4, 3, 3, 3? Or mute one of the "2nd" violins for a 4, 3, 3, 3, 3 like SCS?
2. As I haven't used VSL before, is the player for Dimension the new Synchron player or is it something else (like the somewhat controversial Play)? How big is the learning curve with the VSL player?
3. Given Dimension's relatively high cost, does VSL have sales on this library - particularly around the upcoming holidays?

I also noted the 30 day trial period with VSL, this is very customer friendly, even if it does require the dongle.  Cheers!


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## jaketanner (Oct 8, 2019)

Ray said:


> Is it me, or does SCS sound squeaky, more rough than any Vienna Library? I absolutely love the wide palette of articulations that SCS offers, but I think they lack the homogenous sound of VSL. I'm looking for a string library that can be both sharp (col legnos, spics, etc) and sweet, homogenous (legatos, of course). Think bipolar, haha.
> And with lots of articulations, basically all the articulations Spitfire has.


SCS can certainly be a bit squeaky at times. If you play with the mic positions, you have more control...but the drones of VSl can't be replicated, thus it comes with a certain intimate sound that also can not be replicated. As we all said, each library has its weakness and strengths...all depends on what music you write and which library comes closest to what you've heard it do.


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## Ben (Oct 9, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> 1. Are most folks using the transpose trick to fake a 2nd violins section? Or - could you use 4 1st violins for 1st, and the second 4 1st violins for 2nd? Thus a 4, 4, 3, 3, 3?


Some users are using the transposition trick, some divide the players between first and second, some are using the second violins only when they are plying different notes from the second.
It depends on the sound you want to achive as well as your workflow.
The SYNCHRON-ized versions take care of that, so you can load the instruments and start playing.



yellowtone said:


> 2. As I haven't used VSL before, is the player for Dimension the new Synchron player or is it something else (like the somewhat controversial Play)? How big is the learning curve with the VSL player?


There is the Vienna Instruments (Pro) Player for the classic VI Dimension Strings and the Synchron Player for the SYNCHRON-ized Dimension Strings.
The VI Player is more complicated to learn and takes some time until you know where to find what feature. For the Dimension Strings I highly recommend to buy the Pro version of the player, if you want to stick to the VI series (mostly for the humanize functionalities).

The Synchron Player is modern and has most of the VI Pro 2 players feature build in for free (f.e. humanize feature). It is easier to learn because it was designed with all the features in mind that were added to the VI player over time.
Both players are highly customizable: You don't like the default mapping of a CC to a parameter? Change it to fit your workflow. You don't like how the keyswitches are set up? Feel free use your way. Then save version as user presets, so you can quickly load it whenever you need them.

So yes, there is a learning curve, but you can use it out of the box. And over time when you get more familiar with the player, you can tweak a lot of parameters and settings, if you want.
There are some videos showing the most important features of the player.







yellowtone said:


> 3. Given Dimension's relatively high cost, does VSL have sales on this library - particularly around the upcoming holidays?


Yes, we have libraries on sale now and then. I don't know what sales are planned in future (these plans are made in a different department  ), so I can't tell you when and if the Dimension Strings will be part of it. But the current cost is really good for what you get!
Personally, I bought the Dimension Strings last year during the student sale. And I paid the same amount as it costs now, after the discount, and it was worth it imo.


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## yellowtone (Oct 9, 2019)

Thanks so much Ben, super helpful. I listened to the demos again today and to me it's no contest, the Synchronized Dimension Strings are hands down more pleasing to my ear than the Synchron Chamber (just my personal taste). I appreciate the tips on how to create 2nd violins, this seems workable.



Ben said:


> For the Dimension Strings I highly recommend to buy the Pro version of the player, if you want to stick to the VI series (mostly for the humanize functionalities).



Are there different versions of the player? When I add Dimension Strings to cart I just see "SYNCHRON-ized DIMENSION STRINGS BUNDLE Standard Library" - so no mention of the type of player, Pro vs. Other?



Ben said:


> Yes, we have libraries on sale now and then. I don't know what sales are planned in future (these plans are made in a different department  ), so I can't tell you when and if the Dimension Strings will be part of it. But the current cost is really good for what you get!
> Personally, I bought the Dimension Strings last year during the student sale. And I paid the same amount as it costs now, after the discount, and it was worth it imo.



Great to know sales do occur, and totally fair that you can't divulge when or what sales are coming. Also good to have history on the price, but still, at 1445 eur (incl. key), this is significantly higher than SCS (999 eur) which will likely be 40% off in a month. SA's BBCSO, which is a full orchestra, is 999 eur including an SSD. Just my experience at the moment when pricing libraries. That said, OT's libraries are even more expensive when you include the expansions which are required to more or less match the Dimension Strings functionality/articulations (except they don't have a chamber option). So, I understand each company has to charge differently which is fair... it's certainly my choice whether to spend the money or not. And, as pointed out earlier, I think VSL's 30 day return policy is really industry-leading from a customer focus standpoint.

Final note: You have to buy libraries from the company you work for?? Don't they give you access for free? Or maybe this was before you joined?


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## Ben (Oct 9, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Final note: You have to buy libraries from the company you work for?? Don't they give you access for free? Or maybe this was before you joined?


That was before I got the job offer from VSL 
I did music / worked with samples as a hobby before the end of August this year.

Regarding your questions:

For the VI Series we have the 
- Vienna Instruments Player (free)
- Vienna Instruments Pro 2 Player (paid upgrade, added features like humanize, time-stretching, sequenzing...)
- Vienna Imperial Player (only for the Vienna Imperial piano)

For the Synchron Series we have the
- Synchron Player (free)
- Synchron Piano Player (free, only for the Synchron Pianos)

The Synchron Player has many advanced features like Multi-Mic support, build in IR and FX engines, humanize, full SSD support and more.

Regarding Dimension Strings: You don't have to buy the entire bundle. You can start with the SYN Dimension Strings I and upgrade to the bundle later for the price difference.

Dimension Strings II contains muted articulations, Dim Strings III sul tasto articulations.


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## yellowtone (Oct 10, 2019)

OK, after listening a lot more, I have another line of questioning... besides traditional classical sounds which clearly this does super well, what other styles of music are folks using the Dimension strings for? I'm most interested in whether these could be tweaked to produce golden-age Hollywood sounds like Henry Mancini's Mr. Lucky? Maybe that requires a very different library? If so, can anyone suggest one I could listen to? I'd like to really get a sense for the difference in the samples and how the "base" sample allows for, or limits, how diverse the sounds can get. 

Apologies if this is just basic, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the history of string sounds and how they've changed. For example, I'm don't believe the instruments themselves have changed a ton (meaning the strings, I know that horns for example have changed a great deal in terms of valves, etc.), but obviously the rooms used, recording techniques, and number of players in each section can change a great deal. It's also super clear that the recordings of say Bach, Mancini and John Williams - even if all made in 1980, sound extremely different. I also feel that today a lot of music is really loud and maybe not as dynamic (yes, super quiet and super loud, but not as many variations in between). Not to say some people aren't still going after this (this is my goal personally) but I want to understand whether a library like Dimension Strings, by VSL who has been a major sampling company for a long time, can be used in many ways or if composers typically buy multiple libraries to cover different sounds. The biggest problem I have in comparing libraries is that each library typically only has demos in a single style - VSL demos are all classical whereas OT or SA is almost always epic cinematic (caveat - yes Andy Blaney). It would be much more interesting to me (but maybe not to 80% of prospective buyers) to get 6 tracks, each in highly different styles to see how the library can adapt. But maybe that's the point - they don't adapt well? Thoughts??


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## jaketanner (Oct 10, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> It would be much more interesting to me (but maybe not to 80% of prospective buyers) to get 6 tracks, each in highly different styles to see how the library can adapt. But maybe that's the point - they don't adapt well? Thoughts??


When hunting for libraries, the demos often do not have a good variety, so you're right there. And if you go with the mentality that the developers put those demos on their site because they felt it was the best representation of their library, then you can safely say that what they show you, is what they're meant for. 

I listen to the demos for the sound...I normally don't think about style...unless it's a trailer epic library like MA1...then I listen with that mind set, but then again if someone is listening to that demo, that's what they want anyway. But with OT and SA and VSL, these are libraries that can adapt to various situations...they are strings after all, and their main limitation is the size. If you want a truly symphonic sound you're not gonna get it from a small chamber section, and vice versa...something intimate won't be gotten from SSS.

If you intend to write a wide variety of musical styles, then you will need multiple libraries...no one library does it all.

Lastly, and this is not meant to be a bad thing, but if you look at the years these libraries were created, and the current "style" that was popular, I think you can see the intent more. As you say, today might be more epic and sound wise is different...different recording techniques, and maybe even new spaces opened up. This is all going to lead to a more "modern" sounding library.

I know the choices are hard...been there, and still struggle, but ultimately, just know that you will have multiple libraries...just pick one as you're first.  good luck.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 10, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> OK, after listening a lot more, I have another line of questioning... besides traditional classical sounds which clearly this does super well, what other styles of music are folks using the Dimension strings for?



I'm a big John Williams fan and I use this library for this very task only. Of course, it cannot sound like a really big, lush section, but with some work (= a lot of humanization for the individual players required) it can definitely sound "bigger". Bigger and with a lot of detail, that's the advantage.

To be honest, the golden era sound isn't a specific instrument, it's orchestration and recording technique. Strings sound like strings, and VSL libraries are the most versatile ones, because they sound "neutral" or "classical". You can make any sound out of them.

On the other hand, many libraries (e.g. Hollywood Strings) are designed (and recorded) for special purpose, but you're limited.


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## yellowtone (Oct 10, 2019)

Thanks Jake, this largely confirms my thoughts. My problem with the Mancini stuff is there aren't sample libraries made in 1960.  I also recognize that unless there's a resurgence in that type of music it may be very difficult to get developers to create a library for that sound (unless you've got Hans Zimmer money). I actually started looking at VSL for exactly the reason you describe, the recordings are not as recent and thus hopefully not as modern.

I've already ordered BBCSO and that will be my bread and butter, but as you said and from what I've heard both in demos and others' mockups, there's no way I'm getting a chamber sound from a full symphony library. Mancini and many other composers I love, are using smaller chamber sized groups as I can tell because you can hear individual instruments coming through even when playing as a group. That's why Dimension is so interesting to me because you can choose just how many players to include at once. I want to be able to get the big symphonic sound for some tracks, but also the chamber sound in others. 

I'm still curious how different settings (micing, reverbs, compression, etc.) can affect the sound and potentially enable the more vintage sounds of 1960's Hollywood, or even to match various orchestras in different eras.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 10, 2019)

@yellowtone

By the way, have you watched the VI videos of Dimension Strings? You should definitely take a look at the walkthrough. Paul goes through all the available patches.






VIENNA DIMENSION STRINGS I - Vienna Symphonic Library


Die 24 Streicher der Vienna Dimension Strings I wurden in homogenen Gruppen (8 Violinen, 6 Violen, 6 Celli und 4 Kontrabässe) mit sämtlichen Interaktionen des Live-Musizierens aufgenommen und bieten Zugriff auf jede einzelne Stimme.




www.vsl.co.at


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## yellowtone (Oct 10, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I'm a big John Williams fan and I use this library for this very task only. Of course, it cannot sound like a really big, lush section, but with some work (= a lot of humanization for the individual players required) it can definitely sound "bigger". Bigger and with a lot of detail, that's the advantage.



Interesting, why Dimension when the player size is relatively small? I would think you'd want to go with a library with nearly double the players, no? Or is it the detail that you require which requires the smaller, chamber sized group?



Pixelpoet1985 said:


> To be honest, the golden era sound isn't a specific instrument, it's orchestration and recording technique. Strings sound like strings, and VSL libraries are the most versatile ones, because they sound "neutral" or "classical". You can make any sound out of them.
> 
> On the other hand, many libraries (e.g. Hollywood Strings) are designed (and recorded) for special purpose, but you're limited.



Yes, this was also my hunch, thus the references to reverbs, compressions, eq's, micing, etc. I'm very curious how much you can alter the sounds with patches, without sounding fake, to help with creating the golden era sound. Orchestration definitely is key, but the Mr. Lucky (Mancini) strings have such a 60's vibe (can't think of a better way to describe it really - tape reel recording, analog, pre-1970's porn sound?? Sorry, that last one is maybe too far.) and it's really cool to my ears. Is there a special purpose library that you're aware of for the 60's Mancini sound? Is this Hollywood Strings?


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## yellowtone (Oct 10, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> @yellowtone
> 
> By the way, have you watched the VI videos of Dimension Strings? You should definitely take a look at the walkthrough. Paul goes through all the available patches.



Thank you, yes I have. It's really quite impressive and as you mention earlier, the multitude of articulations and dynamic layers is impressive.


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## Ben (Oct 10, 2019)

For big, lush sound, there is a secret combination: Appassionata Strings + Dimension Strings 

@yellowtone: If I would try to achieve this sound, I would use some EQing on the instruments, make the room impression less wide, use tube / tape simulations and compression that matches this era.
The Blüthner Piano has a preset for this kind of sound: 





BLÜTHNER 1895 - Vienna Symphonic Library


This exceptional grand piano from 1895 was acquired by Synchron Stage Vienna after having been lovingly restored by master piano builder Bernhard Balas from Vienna.




www.vsl.co.at




Preset 6. Vintage


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 11, 2019)

Ben said:


> For big, lush sound, there is a secret combination: Appassionata Strings + Dimension Strings



Very true, and I personally love this combination, but the articulations don't match. Especially the basses. 

If only VSL would record more articulations for the Appassaionata Strings ...


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## yellowtone (Oct 11, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Very true, and I personally love this combination, but the articulations don't match. Especially the basses.
> 
> If only VSL would record more articulations for the Appassaionata Strings ...


How do you get around the non matching arts? Do you only use the patches with matching arts? Or do you not layer these due to the arts issues, and use something else? If something else what do you use? OT, SA, CSS, other?


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 11, 2019)

I gave up mixing, so I only use Dimension Strings. It's a pity, because the combination is really good.

I wasted a lot of time and money on other libraries, and I needed a long time to appreciate VSL. There is not much talk about them here in this forum, that's a pity.

I only use VSL full cube with Mir Pro at the moment. The playability is outstanding and no other library comes even close. In my opinion.


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## Ben (Oct 11, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> How do you get around the non matching arts?


Use the ones that match best. Often you will get good if not even better results if you use different articulations on different players at the same time.
For example: I used the dynamics (pfp6, crec, ...) at the same time on very long notes + a little expression automation, to avoid static sound on very long notes. In quick runs I let some players use staccato instead of spiccato, and one is just playing portato (the sloppy player of the orchestra ). Add a healthy portion of humanization detune and delay and voilà...

If you are interested send me a pm and I will send you my custom presets, that try to use the same keyswitches for all instruments while containing almost all articulations (not finished for all instruments yet).


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## Bollen (Oct 11, 2019)

Just wanted to chip in my support for Dimensions... You can indeed get a very big sound by mixing arts like Ben says. You can double every player and make them into a desk of its own, consequently getting 16 players, which is bigger than most string libraries!

I use the humanising feature a lot if I'm playing from a notation program, but you get the most realistic results by programming each player separately... I know, very time consuming but totally worth it!

The only thing Dimensions strings don't have is a super expressive vibrato, but for that you can always put a solo instrument in the first chair...

As for the Mancini, you can definitely do that with these strings, consider getting the dimensions 2 and mix them in with the normal section i.e. mixing muted with non-muted


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## Dietz (Oct 11, 2019)

Ben said:


> For big, lush sound, there is a secret combination: Appassionata Strings + Dimension Strings


^^^^^ This! 

... not really a secret, though, since I'm telling this to people ever since DS saw the light of day.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 11, 2019)

Bollen said:


> The only thing Dimensions strings don't have is a super expressive vibrato



Yes and no. The progressive (espressivo) patches have more vibrato, but the fade-in time to the climax is way too long. I really would use these patches, but I can't.


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## yellowtone (Oct 11, 2019)

Can you help me understand what is meant by expression in the case of strings? Is vibrato the key measure of "expression" is or is it also how many dynamic layers were recorded or how many attack options are available? My thought is that an actual player, and thus a composer, would have many options for expression - dynamics, attack, articulations/transitions, and vibrato. Is this the common definition as well, and then is it key to measure all these against one another when considering libraries? I'm guessing it's the latter, but interested to get more experienced opinions.


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## Ben (Oct 12, 2019)

Good question... This parameter is used to control different aspects of the sound, depending on the product and producer.

In the Synchron Player and the Vienna Instruments player the Expression parameter changes the volume of played sample before it hits the mixer / any effects are applied. It also does not influence which velocity layer is played.
In short: the velocity controls choosen velocity layer and volume of choosen sample, which can be overuled by enabling velocity crossfade (x-fade), in which case CC2 breath controller will be used instead to crossfade between the velocity layers and control the volume (of couse you can remap it to another CC).
After that the Expression parameter volume control will be applied.

For vibrato control you can use slot crossfade: place two articulations in one cell (VI) / one dimension (Synchron), enable crossfade and use the slot crossfade parameter to blend from one articulation to the other.


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## AndyP (Oct 12, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> On the other hand, many libraries (e.g. Hollywood Strings) are designed (and recorded) for special purpose, but you're limited.


That was the reason for me to have both libraries. Both libraries harmonize very well, especially since both are very dry.


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## Bollen (Oct 13, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Yes and no. The progressive (espressivo) patches have more vibrato, but the fade-in time to the climax is way too long. I really would use these patches, but I can't.


Funny that you say that 'cause for almost every project I've ever made I'll have a completely separate matrix with only "progressive" patches that have I have stretched the first ms to make the vibrato kick in when I want it... I never use the cross-fading technique 'cause it sounds terrible


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## Bollen (Oct 13, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Can you help me understand what is meant by expression in the case of strings? Is vibrato the key measure of "expression" is or is it also how many dynamic layers were recorded or how many attack options are available? My thought is that an actual player, and thus a composer, would have many options for expression - dynamics, attack, articulations/transitions, and vibrato. Is this the common definition as well, and then is it key to measure all these against one another when considering libraries? I'm guessing it's the latter, but interested to get more experienced opinions.


Also important not to confuse what some of us say about the esspresivo patch (which in some VSL instruments is a single velocity patch that has a more exaggerated and intense vibrato) and the expression slider... Which I personally find less useful than the master filter...


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 13, 2019)

I have all the products being discussed here, and I think they're all excellent. I have to admit, though, that the Spitfire Audio Chamber Strings is a real go-to for me. I love it. I think Spitfire really hit it out of the park with that product. Very easy to use and blend. Suitable for a wide-variety of musical styles and it just feels great under your fingers (great for sweetening pop music, too). It has a unique sound that stands apart from other chamber libraries. At this point, if I could only take one chamber string library to a desert island, the Spitfire Chamber Strings would be it.


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## sostenuto (Oct 13, 2019)

Ben said:


> Good question... This parameter is used to control different aspects of the sound, depending on the product and producer.
> 
> In the Synchron Player and the Vienna Instruments player the Expression parameter changes the volume of played sample before it hits the mixer / any effects are applied. It also does not influence which velocity layer is played.
> In short: the velocity controls choosen velocity layer and volume of choosen sample, which can be overuled by enabling velocity crossfade (x-fade), in which case CC2 breath controller will be used instead to crossfade between the velocity layers and control the volume (of couse you can remap it to another CC).
> ...




Really enjoying your participation and useful comments !  Have many Orch libs over years, but have not found '_main_' top tier Orch Lib yet. Some time now with Smart Orch /Spheres, Big Bang Orch _ providing time with Synchron Player. SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds is strong contender now .... but _painful_ to have missed recent, major promo to invest in larger SYNCHRON-ized commitment. 
Hoping for similar (perhaps better) opportunites come BlkFri. Must say .... SF _ BBCSO promo end on Nov 7 is problemmatical. With recent posts reinforcing VSL 30-day refund policy, perhaps an earlier VSL purchase can help .... 

Regards


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## Ray (Oct 13, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Suitable for a wide-variety of musical styles and it just feels great under your fingers (great for sweetening pop music, too). It has a unique sound that stands apart from other chamber libraries. At this point, if I could only take one chamber string library to a desert island, the Spitfire Chamber Strings would be it.


Appreciate your input. Indeed, after many walkthroughs/demos I realize that SCS is actually very promising regarding versatility.
I mentioned in a comment that SCS sounds slightly rough and sometimes produces some weird high-pitched noise, but as I see it, that can be solved by using the ensembles (they sound really homogenous). Correct me if I'm wrong. So you have something like this in terms of sound: rough - sharp - homogenous. I bet one can even write classical with those ensembles.
That seems really versatile to me.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 13, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Funny that you say that 'cause for almost every project I've ever made I'll have a completely separate matrix with only "progressive" patches that have I have stretched the first ms to make the vibrato kick in when I want it... I never use the cross-fading technique 'cause it sounds terrible



Then show me, please. 

Nobody could help me, I already wrote on the VSL forum. How did you manage the stretching? I tried, but the legato was broken. I only need this for the legato patches. Thanks.

Maybe you could send me your matrix presets?


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## g.c. (Oct 13, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Some additional info: in the VSL Synchronized Chamber Strings, you do get a set of 2nd violins. The sound is not necessarily dry - as this rendition of the library comes with the Synchron Strings IRs, it actually does feature a quite convincing ambience and correct seating (can be turned off). SCS is quite flexible thanks to the mic positions it comes with, and provides various colors and nuances depending on how you balance the mics. It can however never quite get really dry and upfront - even the close mic alone has quite a bit of rich ambience.
> 
> The VSL ensemble is actually bigger than the SF ensemble (6-6-4-3-2 vs. 4-3-3-3-3). You can also kind of tell by the sound. SCS has unexpected low end for an ensemble of this size - this is however also due to the massive ambient sound of the library. SCS generally sounds really huge, that's mainly the "AIR effect". Going back to the section sizes: conversely, the high strings in SCS to my ears tend to sound a lot more scratchy and thinner than VSL - more grainy and delicate, which is not necessarily a bad thing. There's something about the sound that's not just "chamber", but also "TV drama", even a bit "rootsy".
> 
> ...


Taking a brak and saw this thread. A couple of points not being mentioned to this point:
1. The Instruments Pro player usage with the V.S.L. products. 
2. All of the setup work spoken of pertaining to V.S.L. forgets that Copy-Paste, templates within templates are all part of the tools available, 
3. add to that that you can put together multiple ways of triggering samples and sample responses, 
4. maybe a short thread idea would be how much of how far ahead of the curve V.S.L. along with Kontakt have been since 2005.
The techniques that developers are incorporating into todays libraries in tools and playing techniques for example, Legato transitions, reassigning of KeySwitches, V.S.L. have been doing for 12-15 years. 
I think that V.S.L. has survived so long now that they are no longer "news".
But I feel badly that so many people coming into this field in the last several years are missing out by not being aware of these libs.
Back to work now.
g.c.


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## Saxer (Oct 13, 2019)

I made bigger sections in VIPro with Dimension Strings stacking different articulations of the same players. There are vibrato, non vibrato and espressivo legatos that can easily be stacked without phasing problems. So the violin section size isn’t limited to 8 players. Even the non vibratos can be animated by using a humanizing pitch envelope. That way I built a 10/8/6/6/4 string section.
A question @Ben : Is stacking different articulations possible in the Synchron Player too?


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## AndyP (Oct 13, 2019)

Saxer said:


> A question @Ben : Is stacking different articulations possible in the Synchron Player too?


You can stack anything you want. That's one thing that I really like about Synchron player.
I can build myself a user patch where I can put any articulation from any instrument. And it is faster and easier than any other app I know.
It is also very easy to set whether you want to play via xfade, dynamic or stacked at the same time.
Building multi patches is a piece of cake in synchron player.


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## AndyP (Oct 13, 2019)

The KH 4d strings are also worth considering. For slur symphony strings these are excellent.


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## sostenuto (Oct 13, 2019)

AndyP said:


> The KH 4d strings are also worth considering. For slur symphony strings these are excellent.



Quite tempting, but now weighing everything against SF_BBCSO $ $749. KH_4D Subscriber Code price ends tonight, but how much of capability is in BBCSO. Checking, but not sorted yet.


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## Ben (Oct 13, 2019)

Saxer said:


> @Ben : Is stacking different articulations possible in the Synchron Player too?


Yes, sure! Compared to the VI player Synchron player is even more flexible.
It needs some time to get the head around it, especially for the long term VI Pro users. But once you get the idea behind it, most people love it.


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## Saxer (Oct 13, 2019)

Ok, thanks for the info! Looks like I have to invest some time there... any chance to transfer custom VIPro patches to the Synchron Player?


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## Rick McGuire (Oct 13, 2019)

I really don't think you could go wrong with either. I own SCS and it's in nearly every library track I write


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## mducharme (Oct 13, 2019)

SCS is one library purchase that I am really happy with. I use it all the time (it and Spitfire solo strings).

I haven't used VSL strings for years, so can't really comment on their newer string libraries.


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## Bollen (Oct 14, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Then show me, please.
> 
> Nobody could help me, I already wrote on the VSL forum. How did you manage the stretching? I tried, but the legato was broken. I only need this for the legato patches. Thanks.
> 
> Maybe you could send me your matrix presets?


Sure thing! I'm surprised nobody helped you at VSL... 

1. First thing is of course to make sure you have Vienna Instruments Pro.

2. Go to advanced tab/mode

3. In the centre right window you'll see multiple tabs, which say things like mixer, envelope, stretch, advanced. Click on stretch.

4. Here you'll have to experiment to get things right according to the context of your music, but in a nutshell: a) the window allows you to click anywhere to create stretch curves. b) there's a millisecond guide at the top and a zoom slider on the right side. c) in the case of crescendos, forte pianos, diminuendo, etc. You'll just want to stretch them with straight line. d) in the case of progressive vibrato you'll want to draw a curve from zero to the centre within the first 20ms, that should speed up the vibrato entry.

Concerning the legato patches, there's no need to stretch any of them (except maybe the legato-trill one) because VSL gives you enough of them to use according to context i.e. perf-legato for slow passages, perf-leg-fast for medium passages and perf-leg-trill for fast runs.

If you have insanely fast runs (god knows I write a lot of those) you could potentially stretch the perf-leg-trill.

If you need more help I could try to make you a video later today.


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## Bollen (Oct 14, 2019)

I generally prefer not to criticise sample libraries because I like that people buy them like candy, even if they don't contribute anything to your setup. If everyone was like me, the sample library industry would be a tenth of its size and we would only get a new library every ten years or so. So bless you all compulsive buyers out there for keeping the industry thriving!

That being said, in my professional opinion all these new libraries recently are aimed at the newcomers. I own nothing by Spitfire, almost nothing by 8dio and to me the BBCSO and Synchron player are basically the same thing i.e. an out of the box solution for people that can't mix, don't have many libraries and are planning to write with just one product.

It's hard enough already to make VSL's very dry libraries sit with other dry libraries (e.g. samplemodelling), I can't imagine how anybody gets different wet libraries to sit together in a mix...???

I was also very underwhelmed by the BBCSO legato and lack of articulations. Not to mention the bizarre ensemble grouping. But if I was just starting out and had nothing, I would definitely go for this first and then slowly build on the Synchron libraries. But for those of us who already have pretty much every instrument on the planet, I haven't seen anything tempting for years...


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 14, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Sure thing! I'm surprised nobody helped you at VSL...
> 
> 1. First thing is of course to make sure you have Vienna Instruments Pro.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I know how to stretch in general. 

I was talking about the progressive patches you customized. Did you stretch the progressive legato patches? I want to know how to deal with this specific issue.

I posted in the forum, I didn't ask the support.


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## Bollen (Oct 14, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Thanks, I know how to stretch in general.
> 
> I was talking about the progressive patches you customized. Did you stretch the progressive legato patches? I want to know how to deal with this specific issue.
> 
> I posted in the forum, I didn't ask the support.


Well for one thing when I customise a progressive patch I use it on one note only. I don't use them for phrases, since then the legato gets a bit funky. But a lot of that funkiness can be avoided by not stretching the first milliseconds, you can also experiment with the legato blur slider and/or the sample start offset on the advance tab.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Oct 14, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Well for one thing when I customise a progressive patch I use it on one note only. I don't use them for phrases, since then the legato gets a bit funky. But a lot of that funkiness can be avoided by not stretching the first milliseconds, you can also experiment with the legato blur slider and/or the sample start offset on the advance tab.



Oh, I see. 


I only need the right curve for the legatos, so that the progressive vibrato comes in earlier. I don't understand why one should/could use them the way they are. 

There were some suggestions on the VSL forum, but these curves destroyed the legato. I know you can stretch the legato in Dimension Strings, because I do it. But maybe it can't be achieved with the progressive legatos.


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## yellowtone (Oct 14, 2019)

Bollen said:


> I was also very underwhelmed by the BBCSO legato and lack of articulations. Not too mention the bizarre ensemble grouping. But if I was just starting out and had nothing, I would definitely go for this first and then slowly build on the Synchron libraries. But for those of us who already have pretty much every instrument on the planet, I haven't seen anything tempting for years...



Just so I'm 100% clear, when you say "this" - you mean BBSCO? I ask, as I'm in exactly the boat you describe - starting out and basically have nothing (bread and butter wise), and my "plan" is BBSCO + a chamber sized string library (potentially Synchron Dimension), and then see later on what makes sense.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 14, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Just so I'm 100% clear, when you say "this" - you mean BBSCO? I ask, as I'm in exactly the boat you describe - starting out and basically have nothing (bread and butter wise), and my "plan" is BBSCO + a chamber sized string library (potentially Synchron Dimension), and then see later on what makes sense.


I'm one of those annoying people who's older and has the funds to buy all this stuff, and is finally getting to pursue something I've wanted to do for 30 years, and now I have 17-20 minutes tops every few days to work on it. SO, I have gear, I have libraries and quite a busy life which means I don't get to spend the time doing ALL of the huge tasks (learning Cubase, Orchestration, my controller, articulations for all my libraries, etc etc). But looking back to 2016 when I started with the Composer Cloud sub for a year, only to use Hollywood Everything and Storm Drum, I eventually learned there are other libraries out there. And I waited things out for sales and now own several. Yippee, I still need time for MUSIC. Hang with me, the point is coming... I'm concentrating on all these libraries and NOT on orchestration, articlulations, etc etc. All my gear and all my libraries are NOISE, a distraction. I don't know what library to get to know first in my 17 minutes. BTW, I bought a 1TB NVMe SSD for BBCSO and it's installed in my 65-pound PC tower because I was hooked, I was buying this new concept (sort of) library. Know what? The purchase is on hold, my libraries and all my "stuff" aren't going to be a distraction anymore. Look at my sig, is that not enough for a student VI composer? IF I HAD A DO OVER IN 2019, assuming a great laptop or tower, I'd buy Cubase Pro, Dorico Pro, BBSCO and two books: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393920658 (Samuel Adler's Orchestration) and Paul Gilreath's MIDI Orchestration book, and the rest of my time would be learning and composing and posting stuff so our peers could beat me up so I could then go back and revise and improve compositions, and keep going until I produced something quite decent. I don't give a rip if BBCSO is missing a legato patch, etc etc. Hit the wall where you now know YOU EVEN NEED a legato patch, and find what you need and buy that. VSL, or the upcoming Berlin changes where you can purchase what you need. By the time you are feeling the pain of missing some form of an instrument, you'll also know if you need dry samples or are perfectly fine with the room that Berlin or Spitfire or Fred's Orchestral Budget Barn offers, and you'll make wise decisions. My mistake was buying libraries because all the ads sounded so great. And they are but I have the caboose before the train, no question. In fact writing this post changes all that from this day forward.

SUGGESTION: I say get BBSCO so you will have a pretty decent array of instruments that do sound monstrous (750 bucks, wow), know your DAW and go write MUSIC. You have enough in that library to create (Andy Blaney demos and not just his are amazing). Keep it simple, reduce the noise that distracts (gear, libraries). That's the road I'm now heading for, because I'm not getting anywhere in my current library-driven state. Funny, the two libraries that I use now 99% of the time for fleshing out ideas: Spitfire Chamber Strings Ensemble patch, and Garritan CFX. SCS just sounds good and I can let go of the library and think about the music. I know, weird, you'd think it'd just be the piano at first but SCS is so rich you can cut it with a #11 chord. I bought it because of the demos and the half price sale... didn't think it'd become an inspiring composition tool.

In the unlikely even that anyone actually read this entire reply, do you have a specific library that just sparks creativity, regardless of the instruments?


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## PaulieDC (Oct 14, 2019)

I would add Ahttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/113880150X (ndrea Pejrolo &amp; Richard Derosa's book) to the required list also.

Also, I got Rimsky-Korakov's Principles of Orchestration in Kindle format for free in 2016. Click on this link and if it lists for $9.99, click on paperback then back on Kindle and see if it's $0.00. It just worked for me (again, 3 years later... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )


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## yellowtone (Oct 14, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> IF I HAD A DO OVER IN 2019, assuming a great laptop or tower, I'd buy Cubase Pro, Dorico Pro, BBSCO and two books: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393920658 (Samuel Adler's Orchestration) and Paul Gilreath's MIDI Orchestration book, and the rest of my time would be learning and composing and posting stuff so our peers could beat me up so I could then go back and revise and improve compositions, and keep going until I produced something quite decent. I don't give a rip if BBCSO is missing a legato patch, etc etc. Hit the wall where you now know YOU EVEN NEED a legato patch, and find what you need and buy that. VSL, or the upcoming Berlin changes where you can purchase what you need. By the time you are feeling the pain of missing some form of an instrument, you'll also know if you need dry samples or are perfectly fine with the room that Berlin or Spitfire of Fred's Orchestral Budget Barn offers, and you'll make wise decisions. My mistake was buying libraries because all the ads sounded so great. And they are but I have the caboose before the train, no question. In fact writing this post changes all that from this day forward.
> 
> SUGGESTION: I say get BBSCO so you will have a pretty decent array of instruments that do sound monstrous (750 bucks, wow), know your DAW and go write MUSIC. You have enough in that library to create (Andy Blaney demos and not just his are amazing). Keep it simple, reduce the noise that distracts (gear, libraries). That's the road I'm now heading for, because I'm not getting anywhere in my current library-driven state. Funny, the two libraries that I use now 99% of the time for fleshing out ideas: Spitfire Chamber Strings Ensemble patch, and Garritan CFX. SCS just sounds good and I can let go of the library and think about the music. I know, weird, you'd think it'd just be the piano at first but SCS is so rich you can cut it with a #11 chord. I bought it because of the demos and the half price sale... didn't think it'd become an inspiring composition tool.



This is really great, appreciate the response very much. It helps that I already bought BBCSO, haha, and your suggestion is along the lines of my thinking after reading many threads here on VI and messaging several folks as well. I'll check out the other resources as well. Cheers!


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## yellowtone (Oct 14, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> I would add Ahttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/113880150X (ndrea Pejrolo &amp; Richard Derosa's book) to the required list also.
> 
> Also, I got Rimsky-Korakov's Principles of Orchestration in Kindle format for free in 2016. Click on this link and if it lists for $9.99, click on paperback then back on Kindle and see if it's $0.00. It just worked for me (again, 3 years later... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )



It does work, and after downloading I found that in the description they explain the book is intentionally free: "converted from its physical edition to the digital format by a community of volunteers."


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 14, 2019)

Ray said:


> Appreciate your input. Indeed, after many walkthroughs/demos I realize that SCS is actually very promising regarding versatility.
> I mentioned in a comment that SCS sounds slightly rough and sometimes produces some weird high-pitched noise, but as I see it, that can be solved by using the ensembles (they sound really homogenous). Correct me if I'm wrong. So you have something like this in terms of sound: rough - sharp - homogenous. I bet one can even write classical with those ensembles.
> That seems really versatile to me.



Maybe it's a YMMV area, but there's nothing about SCS that sounds rough or sharp to me. I think it has a nice, full, round sound. To me, Dimension I is brighter than SCS. I really like Dimension III, though.


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## Saxer (Oct 14, 2019)

SCS has a beautiful sound, round and warm overtones. I'd never call them rough or sharp. But for my taste they sound rather thin. They will never create a warm pad like CSS. Don't forget it's the smalles possible chamber size and I often feel they sound a bit lost in the big recording room. Mainly the 200/300 Hz area is underexposed. It's possible to add some EQ in that area which helps especially when using the close mics. And they are great for doubling. They even survive in a synth pad environment if there's enough space for SCS's beautiful overtones left.


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## yellowtone (Oct 15, 2019)

Saxer said:


> SCS has a beautiful sound, round and warm overtones. I'd never call them rough or sharp. But for my taste they sound rather thin. They will never create a warm pad like CSS. Don't forget it's the smalles possible chamber size and I often feel they sound a bit lost in the big recording room. Mainly the 200/300 Hz area is underexposed. It's possible to add some EQ in that area which helps especially when using the close mics. And they are great for doubling. They even survive in a synth pad environment if there's enough space for SCS's beautiful overtones left.


Have you also worked with LASS or VSL Chamber or Dimension strings? I’d be super interested in your comparison to those libraries also, as I really enjoy many of your compositions/mockups. I also thought CSS’ makeup was a bit larger than chamber, do you feel you can get a chamber sound with CSS?


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## Saxer (Oct 15, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Have you also worked with LASS or VSL Chamber or Dimension strings? I’d be super interested in your comparison to those libraries also, as I really enjoy many of your compositions/mockups. I also thought CSS’ makeup was a bit larger than chamber, do you feel you can get a chamber sound with CSS?


Yepp, I've worked with LASS too. And Dimension Strings is my most used library. Both of them are dry. It's not easy to make them sound like in a scoring stage (it's possible to a certain degree but far off 100%) but on the other hand it's impossible to make wet recorded libraries sound dry. I rarely need big orchestral sounds (TV and additional strings for jazz/pop mostly). The few bigger projects I'm involved in have mostly budget for real orchestra.
In the end it's possible to make good music with all of those libraries. I put a lot of time in customizing the libraries to my workflow (as few key switches as possible and breath controller compatible) plus templates for different needs. CSS can sound more chamberlike when using the close mics only. But they have a lot of vibrato (or no vibrato - nothing in between). Sometimes it fit's. Sometimes not.


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## Bollen (Oct 15, 2019)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Oh, I see.
> 
> 
> I only need the right curve for the legatos, so that the progressive vibrato comes in earlier. I don't understand why one should/could use them the way they are.
> ...


I'll have to experiment to understand what you mean by "destroyed the legato". For the most part you can stretch anything, within the limitations of the engine, if you're careful with the curves.



yellowtone said:


> Just so I'm 100% clear, when you say "this" - you mean BBSCO? I ask, as I'm in exactly the boat you describe - starting out and basically have nothing (bread and butter wise), and my "plan" is BBSCO + a chamber sized string library (potentially Synchron Dimension), and then see later on what makes sense.



Yes, but it doesn't have to be the BBCSO either... It really depends on what you want to do and this is the best place to find out i.e. VI-Control, which tool for your needs.


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## Bollen (Oct 15, 2019)

Ah... @PaulieDC post was brilliant, I hope it did get read in full!

I started back in the day with Sampletank 1.something and Kontakt's factory library. It was pretty horrible, but it sounded better than any synth from the 90s, including my previous gear which was an EMU Proteus 2000...

Then I got a big movie contract which meant I could buy the best possible computer and any libraries I wanted, but I was careful! I didn't want to repeat the errors of the past. Since I mostly write for real instruments I wanted my sample libraries to be able to do what real instruments could do, so instead of spending a fortune on ensembles I went all out on individual instruments that would allow me to manipulate orchestral colours like a real orchestra would... So I suppose I wouldn't really by BBCSO nor synchron today... And probably nothing by spitfire either....

Most sample developers sell libraries that you have to write for them and I need libraries that will play my music. So I guess my ultimate advice is get Adler's book, read a chapter e.g. strings and find a library that will allow you to explore the things he mentions... Only individual instruments will teach you how a 14 divisi sounds, or first desks, etc.

Other must have books: 

- How to write for percussion (Samuel Solomon) 
- Behind bars (Elaine Gould), but only if you write scores
- Materials and Techniques of 20th century music (Kostka)
- Choral Composition (Archibald Davidson)
- Fundamentals of music composition (Schoenberg)

By the way, Scribd is a great place to find music books and all you have to do is upload a PDF and you can download any of their stuff!


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## PaulieDC (Oct 15, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Have you also worked with LASS or VSL Chamber or Dimension strings? I’d be super interested in your comparison to those libraries also, as I really enjoy many of your compositions/mockups. I also thought CSS’ makeup was a bit larger than chamber, do you feel you can get a chamber sound with CSS?


BTW, you did say you were looking for a chamber patch, so definitely research and figure out which one is best. I wasn't suggesting you buy SCS and I'm not saying to use SCS for your compositions, I was just ribbing myself in a way, thinking "I spent all that money on all these libraries and this chamber patch becomes my composing tool, go figure". 

In regards to finding the library that works best for you, please allow me 10 seconds on a soapbox:

*HEY LIBRARY CREATORS FROM SPITFIRE TO EAST-WEST AND EVERYWHERE IN BETWEEN: Waves has figured out how to give us a 7-day trial on all of their engineering plugins... just sayin'!*

#RantOver


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## PaulieDC (Oct 15, 2019)

Bollen said:


> ...Most sample developers sell libraries that you have to write for them and I need libraries that will play my music. So I guess my ultimate advice is get Adler's book, read a chapter e.g. strings and find a library that will allow you to explore the things he mentions... Only individual instruments will teach you how a 14 divisi sounds, or first desks, etc.
> 
> Other must have books:
> 
> ...


Great info, thanks!


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