# Desk Design Ergonomics: Typing vs MIDI Keyboard location



## Lode_Runner (Nov 4, 2017)

Hi all,

I've decided to build a composer's desk.

I've noticed that most desk designs have the MIDI keyboard on a rolling tray under the desk, and the typing keyboard & mouse on the desktop above. I think this would result in the typing keyboard & mouse being ergonomically too high for prolonged typing etc. especially with my MIDI keyboard (Kawai MP9500 which is quite tall).

What I'm thinking might be a better compromise for me would be to have the keyboard and mouse directly in front of the MIDI keyboard. 

Does anyone have their setup like this? Does it work for you? Does the typing keyboard get in the way when playing the MIDI keyboard (ie does it get bumped?)? Or does it result in the MIDI keyboard being too far back for comfortable playing?

Also does anyone know - is the appropriate ergonomic position for playing piano the same as for typing (ie upper arms by side, lower arms perpendicular or slightly angled down, minimal bend in the wrist)?

Thanks for any suggestions.
Matt


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 4, 2017)

I have the opposite, the computer keyboard in a slide out shelf under the desk with the Midi keyboard on top. I do a lot of typing so that's the way I prefer it...


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## TheNorseman (Nov 4, 2017)

I would use a rolling tray for either the midi keys or mouse and keyboard (which ever makes more sense). Otherwise you'll have to stretch over one or the other which is uncomfortable and a pain the behind.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Nov 4, 2017)

The trick is to have a really "short" keyboard like the Doepfers so that the computer keyboard is basically at the same level as the keyboard. Without that you can only really have one be OK and the other be really compromised.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 5, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The trick is to have a really "short" keyboard like the Doepfers so that the computer keyboard is basically at the same level as the keyboard. Without that you can only really have one be OK and the other be really compromised.



Thanks for the Doepfer suggestion Gerhard. If I can't come up with a workable compromise for the Kawai, I may have to look into the Doepfer.



InLight-Tone said:


> I have the opposite, the computer keyboard in a slide out shelf under the desk with the Midi keyboard on top. I do a lot of typing so that's the way I prefer it...



Great idea. Makes a lot more sense - the typing keyboard is a lot smaller and lighter weight. Unfortunately the Kawai takes up a lot of room under it's keys as well, so the typing keyboard would end up quite low.



TheNorseman said:


> I would use a rolling tray for either the midi keys or mouse and keyboard (which ever makes more sense). Otherwise you'll have to stretch over one or the other which is uncomfortable and a pain the behind.



Thanks Norseman. I was thinking of finding a keyboard with a really short and long shape (something with the function keys on the left side like the number keys on the right side would be great), but then the mouse still needs room to swing.


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## Rex282 (Nov 5, 2017)

I have 2 pullouts (1-keypad 2-keyboards.) I set my chair to the highest height for the keypad.Then lower it for the keyboards.This way you can control each keypad/keyboard height when you build.


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## Alex Fraser (Nov 5, 2017)

I’ve gone over this so many times with my own setup, it’s ridiculous. I don’t believe there’s a “perfect” solution, just a different set of compromises. 

After a lot of experimentation, I’ve gone for the midi keys under the desk approach using a thin keyboard: The “much loved” Keystation 88. This way, the desktop remains at a reasonable ergonomic height. 

I’ll get one of those midi mini key things for the desk soon for lazy programming and for times I don’t want 88 keys in front of me. 

Best of luck!


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## EvilDragon (Nov 5, 2017)

For me: MIDI controller has to be in proper place, and I compromise with computer keyboard location (even though I actually do a lot more typing than playing, but it's not that bad on my desk).


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 5, 2017)

@EvilDragon thanks for the photo. It looks like your MIDI controller doesn't have much height above the keys, so that would really only push the computer keyboard up by the small gap between the keys and desktop, the thickness of the desk and the computer keyboard itself - it doesn't look like that much. I think part of the issue for me was that I was thinking of the distance from the surface of the MIDI Controller tray to the desktop which is more. Unfortunately my Kawai has a lot of height above the keys so it'll still be an issue on my setup. 

Thanks also Rex and Alex.


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## mac (Nov 5, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> For me: MIDI controller has to be in proper place, and I compromise with computer keyboard location (even though I actually do a lot more typing than playing, but it's not that bad on my desk).



What kind of desk is that? And is that a black custom in the rack? Very nice!


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## Alex Fraser (Nov 5, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> @EvilDragon thanks for the photo. It looks like your MIDI controller doesn't have much height above the keys, so that would really only push the computer keyboard up by the small gap between the keys and desktop, the thickness of the desk and the computer keyboard itself - it doesn't look like that much. I think part of the issue for me was that I was thinking of the distance from the surface of the MIDI Controller tray to the desktop which is more. Unfortunately my Kawai has a lot of height above the keys so it'll still be an issue on my setup.
> 
> Thanks also Rex and Alex.



A couple of ideas to claw back some space? You could create a cutout on the keyboard tray for your legs, like the Output "Platform" desk. Or forgo the keyboard tray entirely and place the midi keyboard on a trestle type stand (a support either end of the keyboard but nothing in the middle.) Put some wheels on the stand to roll it under the desk.

Also, a thinner glass desktop like Junkie XL. See, I told you I've thought about this too much..


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## TheNorseman (Nov 5, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> For me: MIDI controller has to be in proper place, and I compromise with computer keyboard location (even though I actually do a lot more typing than playing, but it's not that bad on my desk).



Absolutely love it, man. With that guitar rack on the left and the mic setup


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## EvilDragon (Nov 5, 2017)

mac said:


> What kind of desk is that? And is that a black custom in the rack? Very nice!



Buso Audio Artist 88, customized desk height and drawer height, added 4x3U racks instead of default 3x3U racks: https://busoaudio.com/products/artist-88?variant=21062175111

Black custom? What do you mean? Rack in that picture consists of, from left/top to right:

Yamaha FS1R
Korg TR-Rack
Kawai K-5000R
----
Furman PL-Plus C E
RME UFX+
Behringer V-Amp Pro (now replaced with Waldorf Microwave II, V-Amp moved to rack below the desk)
----
Roland JD-990
Waldorf Microwave I


On the desk: Audiothingies Micromonsta, Waldorf Blofeld Black, RME ARC remote.


EDIT: if you meant guitars, and by "black custom" the Les Paul, that's a chinese copy. It's decent but no cigar. Nevermind though. My fav guitars are actually the aqua-blue Washburn and the red Schecter 7-string!  Although there's something to be said about the Yngwie Malmsteen Strat copy with scalloped frets and changed pickups to Fishman Fluence Strat replacements (dead silent single coils!).



Lode_Runner said:


> It looks like your MIDI controller doesn't have much height above the keys



Yes, my current controller is Kurzweil PC3K8, it's not too tall so that works well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 5, 2017)

This is the desk I've been having made to order for customers and working on myself for about ten years. The MIDI keyboard is at standard piano height (about 29-1/2") and depending on the thickness of the MIDI keyboard, the bottom of the sliding desktop is about 5-1/2" above that.

You put your arms on chair arms, and the keyboard and mouse are always in the perfect position - either at the front of the desktop, or just over the MIDI keyboard when you slide it forward. Meanwhile, you're always the right distance from your monitor and speakers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n9qt2o79w9yivnw/5. FullDesk_Ad.pdf?dl=0

The design has evolved a little since then, mainly they're smaller (because that's what people are interested in). Here's one in progress at the wood shop (before being finished):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/234rwjktii82lwu/IMG_2774.JPG?dl=0

I'm just now working on a (hardwood) plywood design that's basically the same only with a different leg assembly, and it'll be a lot less expensive than the solid hardwood version we've had until now (about $1K vs. $2500).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 5, 2017)

But I'm happy to help anyone design their own.

The main thing I swear by is having the desktop slide over the keyboard rather than the keyboard under the desktop. It puts the desktop higher than normal, but it's still comfortable. Again, I've been working on this desk for about 11 years, and before that I had one with the same concept.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 6, 2017)

Alex Fraser said:


> A couple of ideas to claw back some space? You could create a cutout on the keyboard tray for your legs, like the Output "Platform" desk. Or forgo the keyboard tray entirely and place the midi keyboard on a trestle type stand (a support either end of the keyboard but nothing in the middle.) Put some wheels on the stand to roll it under the desk.
> 
> Also, a thinner glass desktop like Junkie XL. See, I told you I've thought about this too much..



Great suggestions, thanks Alex. Definitely going to consider the leg cutout suggestion, but it's probably not going to be enough - this is the beast I'm trying to fit: http://www.kawai.co.uk/mp9500.htm 

Regarding glass, I've got my heart set on a dark 'hardwood' look - this is the aesthetic I've got my heart set on: https://images.custommade.com/0eHs5...ustommade-photosets/197474/197474.1081432.jpg



EvilDragon said:


> Yes, my current controller is Kurzweil PC3K8, it's not too tall so that works well.



You helped me out several years back on KVR when I was asking whether I should buy a Kurzweil PC3K8. Unfortunately I hesitated too long and missed out, so got the Kawai instead. You told me I waited way too long. Looks like you were right. 



Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is the desk I've been having made to order for customers and working on myself for about ten years.


Thanks Nick. Your desks do look awesome. I'm shying away from ordering anything from overseas as I'm in Australia which means currency conversions, shipping costs, import duties and Goods and Services Tax. Definitely considering your recommendation about making the desk top the part that slides.



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The trick is to have a really "short" keyboard like the Doepfers so that the computer keyboard is basically at the same level as the keyboard. Without that you can only really have one be OK and the other be really compromised.


Just saw this: http://celebritypictures.wiki/celebrity/3929448/2049654 - Looks like the Doepfer's are definitely a good solution. How is their keybed action? It says on their website that they have: _T88P/40GH - _Is that Fatar?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Nov 6, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> Just saw this: http://celebritypictures.wiki/celebrity/3929448/2049654 - Looks like the Doepfer's are definitely a good solution. How is their keybed action? It says on their website that they have: _T88P/40GH - _Is that Fatar?



It is Fatar. The Studio Logic ones also have Fatar and are cheaper. They have bigger cases but you can take them apart. I'm not sure if there are any drawbacks to going with an SL. I've heard they need maintenance after a couple of years but I'm not sure if the Doepfer are the same.

I really like the action. There are very few keyboards I'd rather have. Having said that, I don't think it's similar to a real piano. It's like a very heavy synth action. If you're looking for a realistic piano action then it might not be the right option but I'd take it over most other keyboards and digital pianos any day.

I use a Yamaha Clavinova which is one of the few I prefer over the Fatar but I needed something to go under my desk for working. I got a Nektar LX88 because it was the thinnest keyboard cheaper than a Doepfer. The action on it is awful. Fine for entering in basic midi stuff but impossible to play a piano patch.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 6, 2017)

Thanks again Gerhard.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 6, 2017)

Yeah, Fatar is a decent compromise action, but not as realistic as Kawai or Roland, unfortunately. Also, sadly their QC is a bit hit and miss, so very often there will be quite big differences in velocity response between white and black keys... which is kinda unforgivable. But AFAIK some vendors who use Fatar (like Nord, or even Doepfer, but Lachnit definitely - ridiculously expensive though!) regulate the action additionally after they get them from Fatar, so that they're more consistent.


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## Alex Fraser (Nov 6, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> Great suggestions, thanks Alex. Definitely going to consider the leg cutout suggestion, but it's probably not going to be enough - this is the beast I'm trying to fit: http://www.kawai.co.uk/mp9500.htm



Whoa, that is a beast! Probably the Doepfer then...


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## ptram (Nov 6, 2017)

Most of my job is typing, but I have to keep a music keyboard at hand for the remaining part of my day. So, I had first to keep the typing keyboard at the most comfortable level.

What I did was to get a Quik Lok workstation, with a sliding shelf for the typing keyboard and trackpad. Even with the wheels installed, this is slightly lower than a normal desk, so typing is very comfortable. The music keyboard, being a full 88-key master keyboard, goes a bit too high to play regularly. But it works fine for music data entry, and for realtime recording by sliding the typing keyboard shelf in, and raising the height of my chair.

1232624251000_187858.jpg

I think any sturdy office desk will work, when fitted with a sliding keyboard shelf.


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## synthpunk (Nov 6, 2017)

Nice synth collection Mario. And congratulations btw, get some sleep. 



EvilDragon said:


> Buso Audio Artist 88, customized desk height and drawer height, added 4x3U racks instead of default 3x3U racks: https://busoaudio.com/products/artist-88?variant=21062175111
> 
> Black custom? What do you mean? Rack in that picture consists of, from left/top to right:
> 
> ...


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## jamwerks (Nov 6, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> to have the keyboard and mouse directly in front of the MIDI keyboard.
> 
> Does anyone have their setup like this? Does it work for you? Does the typing keyboard get in the way when playing the MIDI keyboard (ie does it get bumped


Had my own desk built, and had made the same observation as the op. When playing the keyboard, providing you have a flat stomach, there's the necessary room for the computer keyboard between you. It has to be a bit lower as to not conflict forearms and thumbs. To me also, have the computer keyboard beyond the midi keyboard seemed too far. Very happy with the setup!

Also, I opted to have the MIDI keyboard in a fixed position and not on a slider drawer.


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## babylonwaves (Nov 6, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> What I'm thinking might be a better compromise for me would be to have the keyboard and mouse directly in front of the MIDI keyboard.
> 
> Does anyone have their setup like this? Does it work for you? Does the typing keyboard get in the way when playing the MIDI keyboard (ie does it get bumped?)? Or does it result in the MIDI keyboard being too far back for comfortable playing?



i've changed to that layout about a year ago and it works better for me. the "keyboard under the desk" approach always felt kind of wrong because either the room below the desk was to tiny or the desk to high. i had a roland A90 now all that's left is 61 plastic keys behind the keyboard and trackpad. I still have the A90 sitting elsewhere in the room and guess how many times i've used it since the relocation ... exactly. zero times.

my main concern when changing was that they keyboard is to far away to play it with control over expression and velocity. but it turned out that that's not an issue at all.

what also helps is that my desk is curved, as you can see a little bit in the picture attached. helps with the stomach if required


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## mac (Nov 6, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> EDIT: if you meant guitars, and by "black custom" the Les Paul, that's a chinese copy. It's decent but no cigar. Nevermind though. My fav guitars are actually the aqua-blue Washburn and the red Schecter 7-string!  Although there's something to be said about the Yngwie Malmsteen Strat copy with scalloped frets and changed pickups to Fishman Fluence Strat replacements (dead silent single coils!).



Ja, it was the les paul I meant. I noticed the Schecter, it's a beauty and that fretboard is a beast. I've tried a few 7 strings, but my little girl hands are far too small unfortunately.


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## TheNorseman (Nov 6, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> EDIT: if you meant guitars, and by "black custom" the Les Paul, that's a chinese copy. It's decent but no cigar. Nevermind though. My fav guitars are actually the aqua-blue Washburn and the red Schecter 7-string!  Although there's something to be said about the Yngwie Malmsteen Strat copy with scalloped frets and changed pickups to Fishman Fluence Strat replacements (dead silent single coils!)



Gorgeous finish on that Schecter. 10 years ago I used to have a similar 6-string, I switched the pickups to EMG's just like you have.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 6, 2017)

mac said:


> I've tried a few 7 strings, but my little girl hands are far too small unfortunately.



Ehehe. I have bigger hands, but that Schecter does have a pretty chunky neck. And the cutout is a bit too shallow so it's quite hard to comfortably play around 24th fret. Those the only two cons to the guitar... but I really got it for the 7th string, not for the 24 frets.  (BTW, I also downtuned it to C standard, so it has a low G instead of a low B!)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> Thanks Nick. Your desks do look awesome. I'm shying away from ordering anything from overseas as I'm in Australia which means currency conversions, shipping costs, import duties and Goods and Services Tax. Definitely considering your recommendation about making the desk top the part that slides.



We've shipped a couple of desks to Europe, but it's expensive. And I agree, Australia isn't practical. Well, it's as practical as Europe, but it's expensive.

I made the first desk with this concept out of Ultimate Support hardware about 15 years ago. It worked well, but the overwhelming success of the current design is because it's overbuilt.

So my advice is to make sure the whole thing is totally solid, and especially to use really heavy-duty drawer slides - whether you have a sliding desktop or a sliding keyboard. The ones we use now are 3" wide x 3/4" thick, rated for 500 lbs. (150 if you mount them horizontally) and far more slides back and forth than you'll do in several lifetimes. That makes it "transparent" when you're working, which of course is why you're even thinking about this in the first place.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 6, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> providing you have a flat stomach, there's the necessary room for the computer keyboard between you.


Close enough, I mean I don't have a 6 pack, and sometimes if I've had too much to eat it's no longer flat... .

Thanks Jamwerks and @babylonwaves, that's reassuring. I thought it'd be likely to work as the mouse and keyboard don't need that much room. The surface I have at work for my mouse is only 23.5cm (9.25") and I've never been bothered by it, it's plenty of room to swing the mouse. I think I'll experiment with a plank in front of the MIDI controller for the time being just to be sure.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> We've shipped a couple of desks to Europe, but it's expensive. And I agree, Australia isn't practical. Well, it's as practical as Europe, but it's expensive.
> 
> I made the first desk with this concept out of Ultimate Support hardware about 15 years ago. It worked well, but the overwhelming success of the current design is because it's overbuilt.
> 
> So my advice is to make sure the whole thing is totally solid, and especially to use really heavy-duty drawer slides - whether you have a sliding desktop or a sliding keyboard. The ones we use now are 3" wide x 3/4" thick, rated for 500 lbs. (150 if you mount them horizontally) and far more slides back and forth than you'll do in several lifetimes. That makes it "transparent" when you're working, which of course is why you're even thinking about this in the first place.


Thanks again Nick - very helpful info especially regarding the slider ratings. I'm now starting to think about having the MIDI Controller on a slider above the desk which will slide away under the visual monitor/studio monitor stand to allow desk space when not in use (would help keep the dust off as well), although maybe a variation of that could be to have a desk top slide out from under the monitors stand instead. I'll work it out in the end.


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## Rohann (Nov 9, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Ehehe. I have bigger hands, but that Schecter does have a pretty chunky neck. And the cutout is a bit too shallow so it's quite hard to comfortably play around 24th fret. Those the only two cons to the guitar... but I really got it for the 7th string, not for the 24 frets.  (BTW, I also downtuned it to C standard, so it has a low G instead of a low B!)


For Gorguts playthroughs, right?


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## Rohann (Nov 9, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> But I'm happy to help anyone design their own.
> 
> The main thing I swear by is having the desktop slide over the keyboard rather than the keyboard under the desktop. It puts the desktop higher than normal, but it's still comfortable. Again, I've been working on this desk for about 11 years, and before that I had one with the same concept.


Brilliant idea! I obviously don't expect you to betray your work's specifications, but is it considerably harder to do this way than to do a conventional setup with a slide-out drawer? Unfortunately ordering to Canada isn't overly practical either. That relationships between our countries, politically, is making importing rather expensive.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2017)

The specifications depend on your keyboard, but I'm perfectly happy to share them. What costs is the materials and the time it takes to build the desk. You can see the design in the pictures, so there's not a lot to protect!

A forum member recently asked whether we could do one for $1K, and I figured out that we can - mainly by using furniture-grade plywood instead of solid hardwood. (With hardwood, the materials alone are close to $1K).


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## Rohann (Nov 9, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The specifications depend on your keyboard, but I'm perfectly happy to share them. What costs is the materials and the time it takes to build the desk. You can see the design in the pictures, so there's not a lot to protect!
> 
> A forum member recently asked whether we could do one for $1K, and I figured out that we can - mainly by using furniture-grade plywood instead of solid hardwood. (With hardwood, the materials alone are close to $1K).


$1k if you build for him, or if he builds his own?

I think I'll likely end up building a proper hardwood desk when our house is built and we're in, so prices like this wouldn't be off-putting.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2017)

We build! Materials, workmanship, and the shipping carton if necessary (those cost a LOT on their own).

I'd love to sell the plans for $1K, and I'd also like to have a harem and a pony.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2017)

By the way, high-quality plywood is still very good! We've been using solid oak for them more recently, but the keyboard shelf and desktop on my personal desk (which is the prototype in that old ad I linked above) are furniture-grade oak plywood, and they're great.

What we haven't done before is make the frame out of ply, nor the legs - but they'll be reinforced on the insides with solid wood (just not hardwood).


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## Rohann (Nov 9, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> We build! Materials, workmanship, and the shipping carton if necessary (those cost a LOT on their own).
> 
> I'd love to sell the plans for $1K, and I'd also like to have a harem and a pony.


Oh that's quite reasonable! Again, shipping to Canada makes it less than worth it (I remember looking into both shipping costs and absurd import fees, nevermind exchange rates), but that's a solid price for a lifelong desk.

Glad to hear that though! I'm wondering if it's worth starting on now. Only problem is that we're moving into an early 1900's house for a while before our build is done and doorways, corners, etc tend to be rather small...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2017)

Yeah, I need to build (with the help of the shop) a plywood prototype and make an ad. It's on my list.

And then I'll have to sell the prototype, because I don't have room for a second desk.


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## KV626 (Nov 11, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Ehehe. I have bigger hands, but that Schecter does have a pretty chunky neck. And the cutout is a bit too shallow so it's quite hard to comfortably play around 24th fret. Those the only two cons to the guitar... but I really got it for the 7th string, not for the 24 frets.  (BTW, I also downtuned it to C standard, so it has a low G instead of a low B!)



Somehow, when I look at your avatar, I think "Cliff Burton".


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## Hywel (Nov 13, 2017)

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/diy-studio-desk-fight.63415/page-6#post-4149582

Just posted in the other desk thread with a picture of my setup and philosophy regarding a 90 degree setup...

Hywel


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 13, 2017)

Hywel said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/diy-studio-desk-fight.63415/page-6#post-4149582
> 
> Just posted in the other desk thread with a picture of my setup and philosophy regarding a 90 degree setup...
> 
> Hywel


Thanks Hywel. I have something similar at the moment, only my MIDI controller is a bit further away. The issue I have with it is mainly the going back and forwards between the computer and MIDI controller (hit record and run back to the MIDI controller, play the part then run back to the computer to hit stop). The other issue I have is the sound from the studio monitors coming from the side. When I'm pretending I'm playing a real piano, it spoils the illusion. I could put the studio monitors above the MIDI controller, but then they're in the wrong position for mixing (or other uses of the computer such as games). I do like the point about looking out the window, I have a beautiful view of the bush (Australian version of forest, in case that's not known). For me though my eyes are on the keys (guitar is the only instrument I can play without looking). Thanks for pointing out that thread too, I'm looking forward to checking out everyone's desks, it's very helpful, and helps me realise how stupid I'm being going all architect on this project.


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## Hywel (Nov 13, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> Thanks Hywel. I have something similar at the moment, only my.... going all architect on this project.



When recording, I can start and stop Cubase from the S88 and have Cubase set up so that if I fluff up, which I do many times, I can just repeatedly hit Record and it starts over again.

I must confess I hardly ever use my monitor speakers, I prefer (and my family prefer me) to use the Beyer DT 880 Pros. My music is just for fun anyway.

Think I might start a new thread... "View through the studio window"...

Hywel


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