# Plug in equivalent to VIENNA MIR PRO



## Christian64 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hi,
Do you know software equivalent to Vienna MIR PRO, please? (For orchestral positioning)
Thanks and good courage for containment,
Christian


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## muk (Apr 12, 2020)

Hi Christian,

There are a few alternatives for MIR PRO, all with a different approach. The ones I can think of right now are:

IRCAM SPAT v3: https://www.flux.audio/project/spat-revolution/

algorithmic rather than convolution. Has been replaced by SPAT Revolution and can't be bought first hand anymore. SPAT Revolution looks like it's been designed for post production, rather than composers. It's complicated to set up and use. Does everything you'd like, but it's expensive.

Virtual Sound Stage: https://www.parallax-audio.com/

algorithmic. Simulates stage placement and early reflections. Does not include a reverb tail. Comparably inexpensive and easy to use. The quality of the early reflections is hit and miss though.

Magix Independence:

https://www.magix.com/int/music/independence/ 

Convolution based. The only stage placement tool I know where you can load your own impulse responses. There is a free version. The paid version is affordable. It's what I use. The GUI is dated. But it's flexible, easy to use, and, to my ears, sounds very good. Not widely used it seems though, so maybe that's just me.

Eareckon Eareverb 2:






eaReckon - EAREVERB 2







www.eareckon.com





Algorithmic. Flexible, easy to use, said to be very good. At 129€ more expensive than other solutions. Nowhere near the price of MIR or Spat, though.

DearVR PRO:









Dear Reality dearVR PRO


The most comprehensive 3D audio solution for sound designers and music professionals in the VR/AR industry.




www.plugin-alliance.com





Algorithmic. Sounds good. However, you have very little control over the reverb part of the engine, which can be problematic in the context of a mix. Has been on sale for 30$ not too long ago.


There are probably a few more. These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Here are two threads about tools for orchestral placement:






Once and for all: SPAT vs. MIR PRO vs. ??


I'd like to know if anyone here swears by a particular spacializer, and if possible, to hear a track he/she has done using that spacializer for processing. I'm sort of torn between MIR Pro and SPAT at the moment. Virtual Sound Stage isn't cutting it for me anymore. SPAT seems like a better...




vi-control.net










Spatial Placement - Basic Questions (Spat, VSS, Mir Pro, Vienna Power Pan, etc)


Hello, I apologize for the long post. I'm trying to understand more thoroughly the basic workflow for spatial placement in virtual orchestration, and there are a few questions that I have for some specific scenarios. Please correct where wrong and/or share your experience ! (I)...




vi-control.net


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## Piotrek K. (Apr 12, 2020)

Eareverb 2. Great algorithmic reverb with awesome positioning features. Some time ago I did demo run of MIR and tbh... I prefered MIR over Eareverb (in general I prefer convo reverbs), but MIR is still too pricey (event now). And needs lot of CPU power.


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## jcrosby (Apr 12, 2020)

IMO the next best option below SPAT is 2C PBJ bundle. (Precedence+Breeze 2 as a package.)

Much like SPT, Precedence talks to Breeze and tells the reverb where it's positioned in space, how far back etc... The reverb intensity, ER, etc changes as you position instruments using Precedence. Fairly similar to the basic concept of SPAT, and much less clunky than VSS2... And while SPAT is in a league of its own, its also overkill for the vast majority of composers. IMO this is thee best option, but of course demo and come to your own conclusion...

Check out an example video below...

I have DearVR. I personally *wouldn't recommend*, or compare it to either as it's intended for binaural audio, (3d imaging in headphones) and has a pretty big impact on timbre. 

In DearVR's manual it says: "_Binaural 3d audio is not made for listening with stereo speakers_. _Although in general the playback is possible, you will have to face strong colorations of the sound depending on your playback system"._

Very cool for sound design, interesting for creating a psychoacoustic panning effect if you're making something synthetic, but not normally intended for general music consumption unless specifically making 3D binaural music.

*2C Audio PBJ:*


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## Christian64 (Apr 12, 2020)

Thank you very much all for your quick answers.  It’s time for me to try the demos.
I’ll let you know...


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## jcrosby (Apr 12, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Thank you very much all for your quick answers.  It’s time for me to try the demos.
> I’ll let you know...


Good luck! Also updated the DearVR section of my post with some important info... Read the manual before demoing... Have fun!


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## Markus Kohlprath (Apr 12, 2020)

To add to the list above and certainly not less useful I would say: 
Panagement 2


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 12, 2020)

To be fair, strictly technically there is none.


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## WhiteNoiz (Apr 12, 2020)

parallax-audio







www.parallax-audio.com





Not crazy about it sound-wise personally, but you can try it. Good settings though.


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## Christian64 (Apr 12, 2020)

WhiteNoiz said:


> parallax-audio
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi,
agree with you!!


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## Christian64 (Apr 12, 2020)

I tested 2C Audio Presedence. It is good but there are audio crackles when I change the settings. Yet my computer is powerful!!


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## Zero&One (Apr 12, 2020)

Out of curiosity, why are you looking for alternatives for MIR?


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## Hans-Peter (Apr 12, 2020)

BTW, MIR also includes a plugin version.

Apart from that, the suggested SPAT v3 is not offered anymore (SPAT Revolution is a standalone software - the same standalone is offered in IRCAM Panoramix, albeit with a less fancy UI - it's the same set of algorithms at a fraction of the price - about 200 USD).

Link: https://forum.ircam.fr/projects/detail/panoramix/


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## rrichard63 (Apr 12, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> I tested 2C Audio Presedence. It is good but there are audio crackles when I change the settings. Yet my computer is powerful!!


Do the crackles occur only when you drag the sound source around in the virtual space? If so, they can be avoided by clicking on the new location rather than dragging.


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## Christian64 (Apr 12, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> Out of curiosity, why are you looking for alternatives for MIR?


Hi,
a cheaper tool


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## Christian64 (Apr 12, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> Do the crackles occur only when you drag the sound source around in the virtual space? If so, they can be avoided by clicking on the new location rather than dragging.


I don’t have an audio crackle with your advice, thank you.
But it’s too bad you can’t do otherwise!


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## Zero&One (Apr 12, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Hi,
> a cheaper tool



Hi, yeah that was also my main barrier. Luckily this sale was ok for me.
For me, the integration with existing VSL products was the main selling point. It's just so easy to get great results.

Hope you get sorted though, there's plenty of options these days.


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## Heartii (Apr 12, 2020)

I use Dear VR Pro. It sounds amazing.


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## Dietz (Apr 13, 2020)

Heartii said:


> I use Dear VR Pro. It sounds amazing.


I own and use Dear VR Pro too, and I like it a lot for what it does, but I have a hard time to imagine how I would use it for the same tasks as MIR Pro.


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## Dietz (Apr 13, 2020)

(PS: An example for "tasks" I have in mind: -> https://vi-control.net/community/th...mir-pro-in-pandemic-times.92053/#post-4538720)


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## Heartii (Apr 13, 2020)

Dietz said:


> (PS: An example for "tasks" I have in mind: -> https://vi-control.net/community/th...mir-pro-in-pandemic-times.92053/#post-4538720)


Personally, i record mics from instrument that i want in my daw and i place them separately in the stereo field according to the orchestra. I detune them slightly and delayed them a little each other, i apply separate CC automation as well and sometimes i warp them a little. I record seperately each result for saving my CPU and i do the same for each layer that i put in my composition with different placement on Dear VR, it allows to eradicate that "thin" sounding when you hear sample compare to a real orchestra. It's sound real as f*** believe me but it's an exhausting process.


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## rrichard63 (Apr 13, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> I don’t have an audio crackle with your advice, thank you.
> But it’s too bad you can’t do otherwise!


In another thread the developer explained that Precedence is not designed to simulate movement around the sound stage during performance.


Andrew Souter said:


> We think of Precedence as a positioning tool more than a special fx for Doppler etc. internal modulation establishes some motion, but it is generally subtle. Think of it as something like the subtle motion of an instrument performer as he/she performs. They don’t usually get up and run around the orchestra. Perhaps in the future we would consider some derivation that is designed for automated motion fx. It will not be as light on the cpu as it is now though.
> 
> The pop/crack you here is do to the nature of our internal parameters which are of a discrete nature. You can perform a single click anywhere in the position display and the internal values will change with only one update and one very small click. This may feel smoother than dragging the position circle bc that results in many updates happening as quickly as possIble which may sound like stuttering.


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## Christian64 (Apr 13, 2020)

Oh...try VIENNA MIR PRO (demo mode) requires to have a physical dongle!


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## Living Fossil (Apr 13, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> I don’t have an audio crackle with your advice, thank you.
> But it’s too bad you can’t do otherwise!



Precedence is meant for static positioning, i.e. not for real time movement. (however, you can set a subtle modulation of the position).
If you want to have realtime movement, Precedence is not for you.


p.s. One plug in that allows quite convincing movements in space is Melda's Turbo Reverb.
However, people usually don't like Melda's GUIs and therefore it's a bit under the radar.


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## Christian64 (Apr 13, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> In another thread the developer explained that Precedence is not designed to simulate movement around the sound stage during performance.


thanks for the info


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## Dietz (Apr 13, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Oh...try VIENNA MIR PRO (demo mode) requires to have a physical dongle!


It's a conventional eLicenser. If you have Cubase, Nuendo, WaveLab, Halion, Arturia instruments etc. you can youse their dongle for VSL products, too.


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## muk (Apr 13, 2020)

If you work in Cubase, you could check out this method which adds a stage placement tool of sorts to any reverb program of your choosing:






Neat reverb trick?


or not... I thought this could be an improvement over simple stereo reverb send, but I'm rather naive when it comes to these technical audio things, being definitely more a musician than an engineer... anyway here's the idea, please don't laugh. Cubase+Spaces here but it can be done in every daw...




vi-control.net


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## labornvain (Apr 13, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> IMO the next best option below SPAT is 2C PBJ bundle. (Precedence+Breeze 2 as a package.)
> 
> Much like SPT, Precedence talks to Breeze and tells the reverb where it's positioned in space, how far back etc... The reverb intensity, ER, etc changes as you position instruments using Precedence. Fairly similar to the basic concept of SPAT, and much less clunky than VSS2... And while SPAT is in a league of its own, its also overkill for the vast majority of composers. IMO this is thee best option, but of course demo and come to your own conclusion...
> 
> ...



Are you aware that Dear VR pro has both a binaural setting, and a setting for speakers?

This setting is in kind of an obscure location, so I'm wondering if you missed that, or are dissatisfied with its performance in some way.


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## labornvain (Apr 13, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> thanks for the info


Yeah, I would just add that the same thing that makes it difficult to change the position of things in real time is also what makes Precedence sound so good.

It's apparently using like a gazillion calculations to pull off a super realistic localization effect.

Of course, one wonders about the usefulness of having an orchestra move around during a performance anyway.


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## Eloy (Apr 13, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Hi,
> a cheaper tool


You may spend less money now. 
However the lost time (and eventually purchasing MIR) you can never buy back.


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## Piotrek K. (Apr 13, 2020)

Seems that a new player is coming to that game:






INSPIRATA | Inspired Acoustics







www.inspiredacoustics.com





No details except for short animation on the site for now but interesting nonetheless.

https://ia-website.s3.eu-central-1.wasabisys.com/media/content/startpage/2019/Inspirata_web_teaser.mp4


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## Christian64 (Apr 13, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> Seems that a new player is coming to that game:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! So wait and see...


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## Zero&One (Apr 14, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Thanks for the info! So wait and see...



Do you have an iLok dongle, looks like their products are protected using that.


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## Dietz (Apr 14, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> Seems that a new player is coming to that game:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice to see that people like the MIR concept so much. 🙃


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## Csaba (Aug 13, 2020)

Hi everyone and thanks for your interest. We designed Inspirata as a team of acoustic consultants who design real spaces. Inspirata has a rather new concept of spatial and automation freedom with the ability to adjust acoustic parameters themselves in real time seamlessly like C80 clarity, spatial params like ASW, LEV, or decay parameters like BR. We have been out measuring at dozens of spaces at lab precision since this is our daily job. We have been preparing all of these for almost two decades now and we are very much excited about its launch and reception. Initial feedback on the prototype at NAMM was very positive. Feel free to ask anything.


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## ChristianM (Aug 13, 2020)

Csaba said:


> Hi everyone and thanks for your interest. We designed Inspirata as a team of acoustic consultants who design real spaces. Inspirata has a rather new concept of spatial and automation freedom with the ability to adjust acoustic parameters themselves in real time seamlessly like C80 clarity, spatial params like ASW, LEV, or decay parameters like BR. We have been out measuring at dozens of spaces at lab precision since this is our daily job. We have been preparing all of these for almost two decades now and we are very much excited about its launch and reception. Initial feedback on the prototype at NAMM was very positive. Feel free to ask anything.


Is your website :
https://www.behance.net/gallery/2332272/INSPIRATA-interface


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## rrichard63 (Aug 13, 2020)

ChristianM said:


> Is your website :
> https://www.behance.net/gallery/2332272/INSPIRATA-interface


I think it's here:





INSPIRATA | Inspired Acoustics







www.inspiredacoustics.com


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## labornvain (Aug 14, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> IMO the next best option below SPAT is 2C PBJ bundle. (Precedence+Breeze 2 as a package.)
> 
> Much like SPT, Precedence talks to Breeze and tells the reverb where it's positioned in space, how far back etc... The reverb intensity, ER, etc changes as you position instruments using Precedence. Fairly similar to the basic concept of SPAT, and much less clunky than VSS2... And while SPAT is in a league of its own, its also overkill for the vast majority of composers. IMO this is thee best option, but of course demo and come to your own conclusion...
> 
> ...



Dear VR has a stereo speaker mode that works quite well for speakers. You may not have noticed it. It's in somewhat of an obscure location.


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## ryst (Aug 15, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Dear VR has a stereo speaker mode that works quite well for speakers. You may not have noticed it. It's in somewhat of an obscure location.



Yep, this is true and I used it for a recent film I scored and mixed and it worked great for placing sounds in the mix. I haven't used it on music yet, but for film mixing it was great.


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## ptram (Aug 15, 2020)

Budapest responding to Vienna. It seems the old Danubian monarchy still wants to be at the center of classical music!

Paolo


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## Piotrek K. (Sep 4, 2020)

@Csaba as I understand you are part of Inspirata development team, right? Do you guys still aim for September release? And how different from VSL MIR your tool is / will be?


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## Csaba (Sep 5, 2020)

@Piotrek K. yes, that is correct. We are little bit behind our schedule in this pandemic situation, but we are quite close to getting ready. We do not have an exact release date that I can share with you at the moment, but I will update you as soon as I can. I think it will be closer to mid-Q4 than September. You can expect that INSPIRATA will be quite different from other products, offering more freedom in spatial movement and adjustability and lots of various spaces. You can both get the sound what the real space provides, and move in there in a fully automatable and smooth way, and also directly adjust the acoustics of the space to fit your taste, all without a click in the sound and time variant processing. Everything is very smooth in INSPIRATA. And a pretty normal computer can handle lots of instrumental sources on stage so you can place an orchestra or work for post-pro with all the automation features. More details to come soon.


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## Csaba (Nov 28, 2020)

A bit of updates and a short orchestral demo of Inspirata is now published on our website. (Not sure if links are allowed here.)


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## Zero&One (Nov 28, 2020)

@Csaba what is the "Maximum number of sound sources"?
Is that say Violins 1. And Violas would be another sound source?


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## heisenberg (Nov 28, 2020)

Csaba said:


> A bit of updates and a short orchestral demo of Inspirata is now published on our website. (Not sure if links are allowed here.)











INSPIRATA Demo Mix | INSPIRATA


INSPIRATA Demo Mix by INSPIRATA, Other music from Jacksonville, FL on ReverbNation




www.reverbnation.com





If this isn't it can you please post the link. Thank you.


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## Zero&One (Nov 28, 2020)

heisenberg said:


> If this isn't it can you please post the link. Thank you.







__





INSPIRATA Immersive Reverb Workstation | Inspired Acoustics







inspiredacoustics.com


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## JonS (Nov 28, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> Hi,
> Do you know software equivalent to Vienna MIR PRO, please? (For orchestral positioning)
> Thanks and good courage for containment,
> Christian


MIR is excellent. I’m hoping VSL comes out with a MIR II including the High, Surround, High Surround, and Wide/Outrigger configurations or even more for Atmos mixing.


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## maestro2be (Nov 28, 2020)

JonS said:


> MIR is excellent. I’m hoping VSL comes out with a MIR II including the High, Surround, High Surround, and Wide/Outrigger configurations or even more for Atmos mixing.


Me too. I am holding off for that upgrade before making any major changes to my workflow. Between it and SPAT I am really left with only a hope for "improvements" more than "replacement" (meaning I am more interested in MIR Pro improving and giving even better results versus leaving my 2 tools for a new one). I have gotten to comfortable in them and many times ones ability to get great results simply comes from putting in significant time with their tool.


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## Csaba (Nov 28, 2020)

The link is this one yes, 





__





INSPIRATA Immersive Reverb Workstation | Inspired Acoustics







www.inspiredacoustics.com





Inspirata will have different editions. The Pro will support 7.1.2 and the Immersive up to 22.2.


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## Csaba (Nov 29, 2020)

Regarding performance and the number of sources: the Pro edition can place 16 sources per instance on stage, the Immersive can do 48. To get a rough idea of the real-time performance: with 14 sources, you can get close to 50% utilization on a 4-core system (an 8-year-old i7 3770, for example, is capable of processing 14 sources simultaneously without dropouts at the lowest buffer size). With a more recent CPU with AVX2, you can use 20 sound sources simultaneously with a buffer size of 64. With respect to computer memory (RAM), you need approximately 350 MB of RAM per sound source.


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