# The Hip-Hop Loop Dilemma... Is there levels to loop use?



## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 14, 2022)

I'm a hip hop music producer and this genre seems to suffer from some sort of "loop-phobia" haha!

Some creatives are totally against loops while others use them all the time in their production..

Curious to know if you guys think there are levels to using loops..

For example if producer a uses one shaker loop in his/her beat vs. producer b who produces an entire song using loops..

How many loops do you get before your no longer considered a "creative" or is it still considered creativity if you produce an entire songs using all loops..

LMK your thoughts below!


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## Mike Greene (Jan 14, 2022)

There's a bit of irony to it, since the genesis of hip hop was entirely loops, and DJs were often the stars. It was DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, for instance, not the other way around.

There was even a bootleg series of albums called "Ultimate Beats and Breakdowns" (I still have most of them) which were compilations of often used songs for DJs and producers. Each album had 8 to 10 songs on them - Apache, Amen Brother (where the Amen Break comes from), etc. Just about all producers at the time had them (it was Dr Dre who introduced me to them), and I don't think anyone was ever looked down on for using them.

With that said, I think the reluctance to using loops nowadays is a matter of _"If you're just using loops, then what the hell are we paying you for?" _It also doesn't help that some of the people making these loops are middle aged white guys. 

When we released Hip Hop Creator, the picture below was our original marketing campaign. Most people seemed to like it, but the hip hop community at large did not find it funny and they took offense. Loudly.

In hindsight, I can't blame them. Hip hop is unique in that someone with no talent at all can still make tracks by simply using loops. So there's resentment by the people _with_ talent, that they don't want to be lumped in with the drag & drop guys.


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## José Herring (Jan 14, 2022)

I think it depends. I was doing some hip/hop minimal mystery type cues recently and doing a lot of the programming myself then I ran across some old Reason loops done by a really great hip hop percussionist and I was like whoa, these sound great! So I slapped those percussive loops along with my own programming, worked out fine. 

If the loops are good it's hard to replicate that feel by just programming single shots. But, you can also make your own loops too by recording your own shakers, hand drums, ect.. Then slap that over an 808 and a bassline.

Whatever gets you there gets you there.


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 14, 2022)

Sure. But what if you’re an established artist with a solid fan base, touring world wide and it happens you’re releasing songs only made with Apple Loops? Are you still a great artist? Or a fraud? Real question.









More synthetic bamboo! The greatest preset sounds in pop music


Christine and the Queens has been criticised for using prefabricated loops from software, rather than coming up with new sounds herself. But from Kate Bush to Kendrick Lamar, these presets are actually the foundation of modern pop




www.theguardian.com


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## rrichard63 (Jan 14, 2022)

GOODmusicONLY said:


> How many loops do you get before your no longer considered a "creative" or is it still considered creativity if you produce an entire songs using all loops..


I think that audiences (rather than musicians) get to answer this question. Either they like the resulting music or they don't.

One approach that is clearly legitimate is to use loops to build the framework for a track, and then to replace all or some of them with your own virtual or real performances.

EDIT: In the next post after this one, @wunderflo makes an important distinction between loops you create yourself by sampling from records, and loops you buy in a commercial loop pack.


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## wunderflo (Jan 14, 2022)

this reaction from the hip-hop community seems strange to me. I been producing hip-hop beats for a long time and been involved in many hip-hop related discussions, but can't remember this has ever been brought up as a problem. Then again, the scene is very diverse. Actually, for a long time it was the other way round. You were considered less "real" when you used midi instruments (back in the days when they still sounded "midi"). And it was always a challenge to make your midi piano or whatever sound like you had sampled and looped it. There are YouTube tutorials on this subject! 

But maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "loops"? Most if not all of the big producers are using the technique of looping samples / sampling loops from records. And there is quite an art to flipping a sample in a fresh way ("sample" referring to one or more bars that have been sampled from a song - not the one-shot samples of the sample libraries we're talking about in this forum). So it's really about how creative you get with slicing, rearranging and editing the looped sample. 

Or are you referring to purchased ready-made loops from some hip-hop sample packs and creator kits, etc.? In this case, yes, for a long time there have been reservations regarding "buying yourself in" instead of creating everything yourself. That actually makes sense when looking at the history of this culture. It's a DIY culture with a strong sense of sportsmanship. Money shouldn't be a competitive advantage. However, I think this nowadays also changed with the rise of Splice and Loopcloud. It's very common now for hip-hop producers to get their ready-made loops from there. But again, it's about how you make those your own then. That's where the creativity can be found. Also, top producers like Kanye have teams who provide them with samples/loops... so it shouldn't be that big of a taboo anymore to not be digging in the crates yourself, even though that is an important part of the culture with its strong roots in DJing.


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## KEM (Jan 14, 2022)

All my beatmaker friends use loops, they actually ask me for loops sometimes. A lot of them just want to make drums and not worry about the melodic stuff at all, one of my friends that has some bigger placements uses loops almost exclusively and he makes all his beats in about 15 minutes


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I think it depends. I was doing some hip/hop minimal mystery type cues recently and doing a lot of the programming myself then I ran across some old Reason loops done by a really great hip hop percussionist and I was like whoa, these sound great! So I slapped those percussive loops along with my own programming, worked out fine.
> 
> If the loops are good it's hard to replicate that feel by just programming single shots. But, you can also make your own loops too by recording your own shakers, hand drums, ect.. Then slap that over an 808 and a bassline.
> 
> Whatever gets you there gets you there.


True that sometimes the loop is just perfect for the situation your working on and why not use it? Haha! Seems like that’s more ego than anything.


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 14, 2022)

Mr Greg G said:


> Sure. But what if you’re an established artist with a solid fan base, touring world wide and it happens you’re releasing songs only made with Apple Loops? Are you still a great artist? Or a fraud? Real question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea it’s a bit weird when your using things everyone has access too some producers actually have musicians create custom loops with a certain tone or vibe for specific projects. 

That’s an interesting thought experiment because it’s still a loop but in a way you curated it.


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 14, 2022)

KEM said:


> All my beatmaker friends use loops, they actually ask me for loops sometimes. A lot of them just want to make drums and not worry about the melodic stuff at all, one of my friends that has some bigger placements uses loops almost exclusively and he makes all his beats in about 15 minutes


This is a major thing in the hip hop community FOR SURE! 

Most producers even top producers get loops curated by other musicians and only produce the drums and bass a lot of times you hear a beat that sounds simple and see there are 2-3 producers..

This is usually the case in those scenarios.


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 14, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> There's a bit of irony to it, since the genesis of hip hop was entirely loops, and DJs were often the stars. It was DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, for instance, not the other way around.
> 
> There was even a bootleg series of albums called "Ultimate Beats and Breakdowns" (I still have most of them) which were compilations of often used songs for DJs and producers. Each album had 8 to 10 songs on them - Apache, Amen Brother (where the Amen Break comes from), etc. Just about all producers at the time had them (it was Dr Dre who introduced me to them), and I don't think anyone was ever looked down on for using them.
> 
> ...


Lots of good points and references. I think no matter what it’s apart of the culture. 

i do think there is levels to loops and like someone else said if you are a major artist and your music is 100% loop based it’s probably not a good signal of longevity..

But I also know lots of producers who are talented af completely stay away from loops and have no income from music and I know the complete opposite as well.. 

Interesting.


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## YaniDee (Jan 14, 2022)

We should ask some of the companies selling all these loops what their opinions are..But really, look at all the loops that come with Cubase, Ableton, etc. Are people supposed to just ignore them? They're paid for, if they enhance your song in some way, why not use them?


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 14, 2022)

YaniDee said:


> We should ask some of the companies selling all these loops what their opinions are..But really, look at all the loops that come with Cubase, Ableton, etc. Are people supposed to just ignore them? They're paid for for, if they enhance your song in some way, why not use them?


That’s a good way to frame it actually! Haha. Your right you paid for the loops why would you not use them. 

I agree. If loops enhance what your doing you would be crazy to not use it…

The end listener wouldn’t give one damn if you used a shaker loop in the breakdown 😂


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## liquidlino (Jan 14, 2022)

It's not the same genre, but loops are extensively used by top acts in edm. Avicii was famous for never programming drums, and using drum loop samples instead. It was part of his workflow, as he could quickly audition dozens of hi hat patterns, etc, In a few seconds. Then he'd change them again later as the track progressed. With edm and I suspect any beat based genre, speed is king, get the track built before the creative urge dissipates, and loops help with speed.

I, personally, think that music is predominantly about taste, and having the taste and skill to select and combine the right loops to support the music is not a skill to be scoffed at or dismissed as not creative. There's also that great copy pasta about raising goats to make drum skins etc, and not being able to make music anymore what with all the goat herding.


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## Thomas Costantino (Jan 14, 2022)

Loops can be incredibly helpful building blocks. They get the creative juices flowing very quickly. Most times I’ll build around the loops and then end up muting them completely and run from there. Other times I’ll incorporate them back in for a bridge or something. 

As far as using them vs not using them to consider yourself less/more creative or professional, I wouldn’t dwell on that at all. Having sat with top liner guys like ILLmind and Symbolic One, I actually picked up some great techniques on slicing drum loops for random one shots here and there. It’s a great method that brings much flavor to your hip hop or film track. Also putting some weird texture or pitch on the drum roll slices will make them unidentifiable. Take it a step further and slice up the transients and move them around to take them off grid for a better swing vibe. 

The best of the best still use loops where ever and however. And guys like them sure aren’t afraid to admit so. They embrace it. 

With that being said, always use the Royalty Free stuff and never sample other peoples work. The amount of legality Symbolic One went through on Kanye’s “ Power” was crazy and left him with little cut from one of his biggest hits in hip hop.

Use anything and everything at your disposal !


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 14, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Loops can be incredibly helpful building blocks. They get the creative juices flowing very quickly. Most times I’ll build around the loops and then end up muting them completely and run from there. Other times I’ll incorporate them back in for a bridge or something.
> 
> As far as using them vs not using them to consider yourself less/more creative or professional, I wouldn’t dwell on that at all. Having sat with top liner guys like ILLmind and Symbolic One, I actually picked up some great techniques on slicing drum loops for random one shots here and there. It’s a great method that brings much flavor to your hip hop or film track. Also putting some weird texture or pitch on the drum roll slices will make them unidentifiable. Take it a step further and slice up the transients and move them around to take them off grid for a better swing vibe.
> 
> ...


Awesome contribution @Thomas Costantino Love the feedback!

I love the idea of slicing drums then offsetting the transient for swing thats actually hella useful haha!

Definitely will utilize it! Thanks man!


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## Thomas Costantino (Jan 14, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> There's a bit of irony to it, since the genesis of hip hop was entirely loops, and DJs were often the stars. It was DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, for instance, not the other way around.
> 
> There was even a bootleg series of albums called "Ultimate Beats and Breakdowns" (I still have most of them) which were compilations of often used songs for DJs and producers. Each album had 8 to 10 songs on them - Apache, Amen Brother (where the Amen Break comes from), etc. Just about all producers at the time had them (it was Dr Dre who introduced me to them), and I don't think anyone was ever looked down on for using them.
> 
> ...


Man this picture is hilarious 😂 ... 
Who in the world would find that offensive? Great marketing lol


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## Thomas Costantino (Jan 14, 2022)

GOODmusicONLY said:


> Awesome contribution @Thomas Costantino Love the feedback!
> 
> I love the idea of slicing drums then offsetting the transient for swing thats actually hella useful haha!
> 
> Definitely will utilize it! Thanks man!


Thanks .. pleasure to contribute. I come from a hip hop background and always have a hint of it in my film music.

Look up ILL’s old beat tapes.. Especially “ Beats For Kanye West “ and all of his work with artists like Jared Even and Skyzoo. If that stuff was released today it would smash on everything. It was an amazing time to be communicating with him on the come up. He lit a fire under me to go full force at this thing, so I’m on a mission to do the same for anyone willing to connect.

Most of his stuff is original work with that loop slicing incorporated. You’ll see why he’s the GOAT of hip hop right now.


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## telecode101 (Jan 15, 2022)

A lot of very famous records were made with loops. It all comes down to how smart you are with using them. Butch Vig used tons of loops for those early alt rock records with his band.









Interview with Butch Vig with co-engineer Billy Bush - Gearspace.com


Drummer turned producer Butch Vig tells us about his work with Nirvana and The Smashing Pumpkins, engineer Billy Bush answers questions also - read it here!



gearspace.com


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 15, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Thanks .. pleasure to contribute. I come from a hip hop background and always have a hint of it in my film music.
> 
> Look up ILL’s old beat tapes.. Especially “ Beats For Kanye West “ and all of his work with artists like Jared Even and Skyzoo. If that stuff was released today it would smash on everything. It was an amazing time to be communicating with him on the come up. He lit a fire under me to go full force at this thing, so I’m on a mission to do the same for anyone willing to connect.
> 
> Most of his stuff is original work with that loop slicing incorporated. You’ll see why he’s the GOAT of hip hop right now.


Thats fire! 

I will definitely look into ILL's old beats. IMO He's doing some amazing things in the NFT space right now within the music community. Definitely a major trend setter and I'm a huge fan.

Its awesome you had the unique opportunity to connect with him at such a pivoting time in his career! 

Thats tons of motivation and value on its own!


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## GOODmusicONLY (Jan 15, 2022)

telecode101 said:


> A lot of very famous records were made with loops. It all comes down to how smart you are with using them. Butch Vig used tons of loops for those early alt rock records with his band.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Huge fan of Butch! and I agree how loops are used can be a creative pursuit on its own..

What you do with it? Pitch it, reverse it, chop it up rearrange it etc... Absolutely!


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## b_elliott (Jan 15, 2022)

Turns out I listen to hip hop (multiple LPs of Lil Wayne, Fugees, Childish Gambino.) Just not a daily go-to.

So I checked the current #1 hip hop song (US): 
Lil Durk _Broadway Girls_ feat. Morgan Wallen. 

.02 cent song analysis: 
Nashville doing hip hop. History in the making?

-gtr riff could just as well be a loop 
-drums sounds like drum machine or simple loops + claps 
-chill at 90 BPM (slightly slower than the non hip-hop bass-heavy _Menace_ (Rezz)* -bass in C (as opposed to bass-heavy EDM's preference for low F [43.6hz]) 
_-_overall sparse instrumentation used throughout this song
-chorus is the basic I-IV-V 
-highly singable chorus:
_Now, there's two things that you're gonna find out
They don't love you and they only love you right now
If I was smarter, I'da stayed my ass at home
And leave them Broadway girls alone_

I did this as an exercise since I am currently working on a bass-heavy tune a la Rezz. Loops have been something I normally ignored. Not so now, thanks to OP.
Cheers, Bill

* warning: flashing lights in video in case that matters to you.


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## Thomas Costantino (Jan 15, 2022)

GOODmusicONLY said:


> Thats fire!
> 
> I will definitely look into ILL's old beats. IMO He's doing some amazing things in the NFT space right now within the music community. Definitely a major trend setter and I'm a huge fan.
> 
> ...


Interested to see what he’s doing with that...

The concept of NFT seems odd to me. I’m open to learning more about it but I am hesitant to dive in. At a fundamental level it sounds like a lot of hype for purchasing an encoded data file that comes with a piece of art. How is that more safe than an Exclusive Contract with your signature and a Copyright/Trademark transfer code on a physical peice of paper?

Not knocking the whole system or anyone that’s into them. Just looking at it objectively. I will admit I don’t know enough about them and would appreciate anyone’s take that’s into it. But saying “ it’s on the blockchain” isn’t much of an explanation.

As far as loops go, I’m certainly curious to see what ILLmind has up his sleeve. He’s incredibly passionate about moving the Producer culture forward so I’ll be watching closely.


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## jcrosby (Jan 15, 2022)

Loops are fine as long as you flip them into something 'new' (and ideally not easily recognizable)... Once you get into licensing music cues, loops can get you into potential trouble... Or at least _can_ be the source of a few headaches.

From exclusive libraries tracking their cues with something like *Source Audio Detect*, then potentially getting false positives from another artist who used the same loop (or '_signature sample_', etc)... To people just making beats to license cheaply for use online, where content ID can potentially flag a track because someone else already used that loop in a production....

There's a lot of reasons why it's wise to sharpen those editing chops and get crafty with how you repurpose loops... (And samples in general).

These days I'm doing a fair amount of writing for trailer libraries, increasingly it's becoming important to repurpose things in as unique a way as possible so that publishers can accurately track usage...

So basically it's smart to consider either making your own content (or curating it as mentioned), and/or at least being unique in ways you re-flip pre-made content so that it doesn't get picked up as being someone else's work. The upside is we have tons of affordable tools that let us do this in ways we couldn't have 20 years ago.

TL;DR: The web has made everything trackable, and any label or library worth its own name brand is absolutely using many of the various tools available to track usage of their catalogue.


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## Thomas Costantino (Jan 15, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Loops are fine as long as you flip them into something 'new'... Once you get into licensing loops can get you into potential trouble...
> 
> From libraries tracking their cues with something like Source Audio Detect, then potentially getting false positives from another artist who used the same loop... To people just making beats to license cheaply for use online, then content ID flagging a track becuase someone else already used the loop....
> 
> There's a lot of reasons why it's wise to sharpen those editing chops and get crafty with how you repurpose loops...


Well said. Flip it into something new.


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