# Trailer music, its just me or....



## lux (Jan 22, 2009)

i was just watchin Milk's trailer and a few seconds before hitting the play button was thinking: it couldnt be, they cant place epic choirs and bangs on a trailer with that argument, historical ambientation, visuals and...

....then the choir started. Then the bangin started.

I'm wondering: does any musician/composer/producer/director ever pointed out that you cannot place the same kind of music under every f***ing trailer, regardless of what the trailer is about?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2009)

It's just you.
:mrgreen: 

Seriously though, I think that they may have found out through test screenings that audience members are so busy trying to understand the trailer, trying to spot recognizable actors/big names, thinking about how silly/amazing this plot might be, that they hardly pay any attention whatsoever to the music. And 'they' are probably right.


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## Leon Willett (Jan 22, 2009)

Ah! Ah! Dominus! Ah! AAAAAAH! Agnus Dei!!!


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## lux (Jan 22, 2009)

well, a kick in your eggs would keep the whole attention as well. Still has not much to do with what the trailers are about.

I think this is a technical explaination, but in general i believe its just a matter of cloning habits.


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## lux (Jan 22, 2009)

Leon Willett @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> Ah! Ah! Dominus! Ah! AAAAAAH! Agnus Dei!!!



:D


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## Elfen (Jan 22, 2009)

Like that Defiance trailer, http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-J4mN-W-p0A

Start with the batch Sound Design of Batman sync with the cuts and words, combine that with an HZimmerish marching open epic heart wrenching uprising emotion, finish it with a choral hit. And you've got yourself a working trailer.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=WYZ2oYDSK ... re=related
Same but with rock beat, ostinatos and more Ahh Ahh Ohh Ohh.

For peoples walking in the woods it seems really a wild trip. :mrgreen:

Still I like theses. It's just funny they tend to be all similars. Working marketing's safety mesures obliges I guess, when you've got these quadri-millions $ invested.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 22, 2009)

It's simple, and like most everything else in the entertainment business.

Someone does something and it is successful. Then all these fools do the same thing until the bean counters tell them it is no longer working.

Imagine a trailer fora horror/mystery flick without "whoosh" sounds. Wouldn't that be refreshing.


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## Evan Gamble (Jan 22, 2009)

There have been some good trailers lately though, one of the milk ones I thought was good.

Revolutionary Road with Nina Simone under..very chilling.

Doubt I think was good, the there will be blood one as well. Ooo and of course all the Watchmen ones with Muse and Smashing pumkins such great tunes.

There is ....some hope.


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## sin(x) (Jan 22, 2009)

Interesting how this seems to correlate with the overuse of Trajan in film titles and trailers. Trajan is the movie font!

I guess overall, it comes down to lazy marketing...


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## Niah (Jan 22, 2009)

one of my all time fav

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEVY_lon ... re=related

nothing beats the oldies 8)


EDIT: oh and what happened to that guy who used to do voice over for every trailer ?

I hope he is still working :lol:


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 22, 2009)

Niah @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> EDIT: oh and what happened to that guy who used to do voice over for every trailer ?
> 
> I hope he is still working :lol:



That would be Don LaFontaine, who died last year. He was truly a legend with that voice.

Click Here for Don LaFonatine footage

But there are about 5 guys still alive and well who all work regularly and do "that voice"...including Hal Douglas.

Click here for Hal Douglas video


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## RiffWraith (Jan 22, 2009)

Niah @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> one of my all time fav
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEVY_lon ... re=related
> 
> nothing beats the oldies 8)



A bit OT, but remember the scene of the first Alien coming out of that woman's stomach around the dinner table? Well, story has it that none of the actors knew that was coming. The only one that knew was the woman it happened to. And supposedly they set up multiple cameras to get as many initial reactions as they could. So, when you watch the film, and you see all of the actors with the "holy shit!" look - they aren't acting.

Cheers.


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## gsilbers (Jan 22, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> I think it is also worth pointing out that these trailers are NOT made by anyone affiliated with their films. Directors and even most producers don't have any creative control over how their trailers are made. The trailers are put together by the PR firms that are hired by the studios or production companies to sell the film to the public. So...these things are put together by people who sell things and put ad campaigns together, not by the creative folks who had anything to do with the actual film itself. And, those PR folks are much more keyed in to trends and "triggers" in the marketplace than any of us to be honest.
> 
> It is about getting butts in the seats to buy those $10+ tickets. And since the theatrical release any more is really just 1) a campaign for awards season and 2) a big ad campaign and push for the home video release where most money is made on most films...even the theatrical isn't the big focus any more.




its true... 


i might say they sometimes do a good job fooling people of what the movie is about.. 


remeber pans labrinth's trailer.?.. 

i thought i was going to see a harry potter-sque movie. the movie turned out to be great but many in the movie theatre after the movie ended said " i didnt know it wasnt in english" 
stupid to say that after almost 2 hours being there and then .. good job by the trailer guys cause if they show it was in spanish many would have said "dude it has subtitles.. i dunt wanna read in a movie :? " duhh... 
but the movie was good and they liked it. 

of course... thats one hit and many misses i have seen. the day the earth stood still semmed like it had a lot of action. only one action scene, the same one in the trailer and whole lotta of banging music.


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## nomogo (Jan 22, 2009)

lux @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> I'm wondering: does any musician/composer/producer/director ever pointed out that you cannot place the same kind of music under every f***ing trailer, regardless of what the trailer is about?



Yes, but its not musicians making those choices, trailers are mostly offloaded to Trailer Houses... which are essentially advertising firms... so the sensibilities can be quite different there.


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## midphase (Jan 22, 2009)

"A bit OT, but remember the scene of the first Alien coming out of that woman's stomach around the dinner table?"

Actually that would have been the stomach of actor John Hurt.


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## midphase (Jan 22, 2009)

"good job by the trailer guys cause if they show it was in spanish many would have said "dude it has subtitles.. i dunt wanna read in a movie " duhh... 
but the movie was good and they liked it. "

I actually felt quite a bit deceived by the trailer for Pan's Labyrinth (looked more fantasy than war drama). Same with the one for Bridge to Terabithia (more Harry Potter than family drama) and the one for Babel (Brad Pitt action flick as opposed to new agey hyperlink movie).

I think there is a point where trailers can be false advertising, and when they do so, audiences get angry regardless of how good the film was.

The opposite can also hurt the film, I have felt that the trailers for Children of Men simply did not do the movie enough justice and actually were poor advertisements for such an intense and action packed film.


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## midphase (Jan 22, 2009)

Here BTW is a link to one of my favorite trailers ever!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl1rRf7PW58


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## choc0thrax (Jan 22, 2009)

midphase @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> Here BTW is a link to one of my favorite trailers ever!!!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl1rRf7PW58



Your opinion isn't effected by the fact you scored that movie is it? o/~


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 22, 2009)

midphase @ 22/1/2009 said:


> Here BTW is a link to one of my favorite trailers ever!!!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl1rRf7PW58



Holy sh*t! Surprising: did I see that the papayas are finally on special this week?


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## midphase (Jan 22, 2009)

"Your opinion isn't effected by the fact you scored that movie is it?"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2009)

Evan Gamble @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> There have been some good trailers lately though...
> 
> Revolutionary Road with Nina Simone under..very chilling.
> 
> There is ....some hope.



Thanks for noticing my wife's client's film!  

Now I'll finish reading the thread.


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm with you Lux...this bullshit is (unfortunately) our battle to fight (mostly) alone. Some artists actually find themselves brainwashed into believing these bean counters know more about how to sell art than the people who CREATED it.

It's bullshit, I say, the studios love to play SMASH-AND-GRAB. How bout this, how bout we make a good fucking movie and present it as WHAT IT IS.

There I go again thinking totally outside the box...


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 23, 2009)

kid-surf @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> I'm with you Lux...this bullshit is (unfortunately) our battle to fight (mostly) alone. Some artists actually find themselves brainwashed into believing these bean counters know more about how to sell art than the people who CREATED it.
> 
> It's bullshit, I say, the studios love to play SMASH-AND-GRAB. How bout this, how bout we make a good fucking movie and present it as WHAT IT IS.
> 
> There I go again thinking totally outside the box...



Would you be willing to risk your career on that kid? Seriously. 

Ok...let's say you make a $20 million dollar film. The rules of the game are already set that a film will cost 2-3 times as much to promote as it does to make. So...the studio in order to properly promote and release a $20 million dollar film is already having to commit another $20-$40 million in advertising and the PR campaign. So the film will need to make about $60 million to finally be making a profit. 

You fight for the right to promote your film and have final say over its PR campaign. You passionately fight for that because you know best how your film should be promoted and sold to the public. The studio says they would rather hire a PR firm that does this for a living, but no, you argue (and it would be an argument) that you know the film better, you know who you made it for and you thus know best how it should present itself to an audience. The studio reluctantly lets you do it your way. (They would not, but lets say that you argue in such a way that they say "ok...we will do it YOUR way.") 

Now, the film gets released and the ad campaign follows YOUR plan of action. The scenario now goes like this. It only makes a few million on opening weekend. The biggest weekend for any theatrical. And the box office sharply goes down from there. 

In that case..which is a distinct possibility for ANY film that gets released...but in this case, where you fought tooth and nail for it to be promoted your way...I guarantee you that you would never make another film for that studio again. You would be blamed for the lack of box office. ("If you had only let the PR firm handle this, we would be making millions, but no...we had to do it your way and now the film is a failure.") Then your agent gets a call saying you will never work in this town again. Word gets out that you are difficult to work with and you screwed up the release of your previous film in turn losing millions for the studio all because you were not a team player and insisted on your marketing campaign which failed.

Are you willing to take that risk with your career reputation? 

I would tend to recommend to us creative folks that we stick to and make ourselves known for the creative content only and let the marketing folks and those flipping the bill for it do their own thing and take their own risks without our interference.

Unfortunately...it is not about the "art." Never has been. Never will be.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 23, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ 23/1/2009 said:


> ?
> Unfortunately...it is not about the "art." Never has been. Never will be.



It's about popcorn and a coke.


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## lux (Jan 23, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> kid-surf @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with you Lux...this [email protected]#t is (unfortunately) our battle to fight (mostly) alone. Some artists actually find themselves brainwashed into believing these bean counters know more about how to sell art than the people who CREATED it.
> ...



Ok, but lets say that this has happened thousand times before. Lets say that people released big blockbuster, that still sell today, having a bit more artistic choices among all the several aspect of a production.

Show business hasnt born with actual industry.

Sleepy cowardy is a common feature of modern managers. It hasnt been always so. Wake up is supposed to start somewhere. Why not here?


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 23, 2009)

It is not like these marketing campaigns are put together by some kid at the firm who likes a certain kind of music or strategy and just repeats it over and over. There is actual science behind what they do. They have very detailed projections on how the public will respond to what. It is what they do for a living and they get paid a lot of money to be accurate in their projections. 

They (PR campaigns) do know what they are doing...for the most part. Whether that coincides with the "art" of the film or not...doesn't really matter. It is about making money and maximizing profits. Otherwise there is no point (in a studio's eyes) to throwing/risking millions on any film's release. To think this business is about anything other than making money is foolish.


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## rJames (Jan 23, 2009)

Everything evolves.

The key to evolution is, "survival of the fittest."

It is up to US to produce music that will start to change the way people think about trailer music.

It is up to US to convince an editor to use our revolutionary product.

I'm not saying this to be harsh. This is reality. 

Certain companies have evolved with a method of delivering successful music to trailer editors. They tend to stick by that formula. They also will evolve. (evolution is slow)

Certain editors have evolved who's style has proven effective in TV and film marketing.

It is just reality. No conspiracy, no special club or membership.

We hold the key to the future. We can die in obscurity or do everything we can to be heard. The market forces will decide what is "good" for today... even if our solution, our product, our art will live on for eternity as the best music (or art) ever produced on the planet.


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2009)

What's foolish is for an artist to think in those terms. Great way to create work that DOESN'T MATTER...and...doesn't MAKE MONEY.

It's no big surprise that the folks who approach the film industry with that mindset never make it over the wall. 

Understanding the way the industry works isn't the same as believing it is the best way to run it. 

Now I'm going to ramble like I normally do, and somewhere in there will be a point or two.


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2009)

Brian -- I'm already risking my career on moves the 'mainstream' mentality believes to be wrong. (more about that in a sec)

The problem with your scenario is two fold: 1) You assume my way will necessarily fail. 2) you assume their way has yet to fail. 

THEY have failed MANY times over. Do I really need to list all the box office flops and/or films that were marketed the wrong way. 

This town runs on FEAR. No, I don't believe this is the best way to run the film business. And it's only getting worse. More folks being fired everyday. Producing deals going bye-bye. It's not pretty.

Here is another scenario -- I market my film MY way, people find the trailer compelling, honest, and let's not forget the promise that it'll be 'entertaining' in whatever fashion. Folks then pay to see the film, they generally like it, word of mouth spreads, it ends up doing well (in the states and in overseas territories). Suddenly Hollywood thinks I'm a genius (wrongly so, but when all they care about is numbers, the numbers speak for themselves). Now they bend over backwards to shove money into my pockets and ask me to do it....AGAIN!

The entire town was/is shocked and amazed that Gran Torino found its way to #1 at the box office. Nobody predicted that, no charts or graphs, no science. Nobody predicted that Slum Dog would hit the way it did. Nobody would have predicted no Oscar Noms for Rev Road. On the flip: does it really take a marketing genius to market say, IRON MAN? That's template marketing if I've ever seen it. Fox Searchlight and the like actually do a great job of packaging the CONCEPT in a way that is honest but also creative...and by the way, NOT EASY!

When we (they) place ourselves in a position of being "experts" we begin to be very myopic. This isn't the time for that; you may have heard that it sucks out there, thus it is time to get CREATIVE. Time to try some NEW tactics. The viewing audience is growing ever more savvy by the day. We can't continue to treat them like morons and expect to continue selling tickets to shitty films that don't match the trailer forever.

Risking my career? -- Yes, I do that now. I would have assumed, wrongly, that it would be apparent by my choice to dive head first into writing. Anyway. People (suits) have suggested along the way I write this or that spectacle/ordinary type film. People have tried to wrangle me into them but somehow I decline. Same old story, they aim to SMASH AND GRAB while riding me like a donkey to the bank w/o much thought to what this means to "my" career, only their own. I always ask myself the same question: "What VALUE does that give me in this town? Why would I want to be known as the guy who writes the SAME garbage the next guy does?" No thanks.

Yep, I'm out there putting my convictions where my mouth is. The film I'm developing right now (with a successful producer) isn't the "sure thing", but if/when I 'deliver' I believe it'll give me the type of VALUE that maters to "my" career, too, not just everyone around me. I'm attempting to set myself apart, not be one of the masses in a sea of sameness. Those guys don't make 3 Mil a script.

...Which is the very reason I wrote the scripts I did. I don't believe every other guy could write them. Could be the reason taste-makers want to get something going. Would they have responded if I wrote what looked to be tent-pole flicks? Something tells me, not. But I can't say for sure.

I will say though, that I wouldn't direct anything I've written just yet. Not that I don't believe in the scripts, but I want to write MY version of the "sure thing" before I push for that. 

Quickly -- As for my TV-show (that I'm developing with an agent and producer) same thing there, it's a risky show. It's no Lie To Me (sorry to slam on that show but, come on? It's silly). In other words, nothing that looks like the sure thing. Plainly, the 'sure thing' idea has never made any sense to me. The MOST successful shows have always been from the minds of creatives who took RISKS ---- CSI, Sopranos, Lost, Seinfeld, etc..

...Obviously folks in and around those shows are getting paid....still.




> Unfortunately...it is not about the "art." Never has been. Never will be.



If you are reiterating the studio mantra, fine. But if you are asking me to view art in that way, you can forget it.  WE must never forget WHO we are creating for. The studios and their parent companies are not actually the ones writing these paychecks, it is ultimately the general public. Shit, if we are egotistical enough to proclaim we are god's gift to art (whereby we feel we deserve an audience who pays us) then damn it, WE must fight any way we can to give the people what they deserve. I hear far too many everyday folks complaining about the quality as of late.

To be perfectly clear -- I'm not suggesting one be a pigheaded asshole who tries to steamroll (Seen OVERNIGHT? Obviously, that doesn't work, that's not me anyway) Nah, I'm talking about tactfully attempting to get what WE want out of this whole thing, too. That is not being greedy (more brain washing). It is in fact making every attempt to be HONEST with our audience. I can't find a flaw in that logic. 

I sure as hell didn't spend all these years learning to create JUST to appease some folks in fancy suits, and/or bean counters. Did you? Yeah, I play the game, but only up to a certain point.


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2009)

I want to add something about the Tv-show:

When I first hooked up with this producer, as we were trying to find something to work on together, he said "Just be absolutely sure this is a show you can see yourself working on 18 hours a day for 5 years...this isn't about just selling a show." I honestly, hadn't thought about that in a TRUE TO LIFE scenario. Almost as if: well I'm just some guy, nobody's going to make my show. His comment startled me back to reality, that no, this is the real deal...he's got two other successful shows on the air as we speak. This is no game this is my life.

Previously I had been trying to think of that "sure thing" just so I could sell something, perhaps he sensed that. He said "what people like about your writing is not that it's typical, it's got an energy that is rare...you need to make sure that is in the show and that you don't attempt to water it down". He continued to say that "You do your thing, I'll edit you.. I don't want you to hold back, that's not how we'll arrive at a great show."

So, here I am months later and we are attempting to put together a show that is somewhat dark and risky. But I can honestly say that it is 100% the show I could see spending 5 years with.

Otherwise...I'd raòÃ2   ’ÙâÃ2   ’ÙãÃ2   ’ÙäÃ3   ’ÙåÃ3   ’ÙæÃ3   ’ÙçÃ3   ’ÙèÃ4   ’ÙéÃ4   ’ÙêÃ4   ’ÙëÃ4   ’ÙìÃ4   ’ÙíÃ4   ’ÙîÃ4   ’ÙïÃ4   ’ÙðÃ4   ’ÙñÃ4   ’ÙòÃ4   ’ÙóÃ4   ’ÙôÃ4   ’ÙõÃ4   ’ÙöÃ4   ’Ù÷Ã4   ’ÙøÃ4   ’ÙùÃ4   ’ÙúÃ4   ’ÙûÃ4   ’ÙüÃ4   ’ÙýÃ4   ’ÙþÃ4   ’ÙÿÃ4   ’Ú Ã4   ’ÚÃ4   ’ÚÃ4   ’ÚÃ4   ’ÚÃ4   ’ÚÃ4   ’ÚÃ4   ’ÚÃ4   ’ÚÃ4   ’Ú	Ã4   ’Ú
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## Brian Ralston (Jan 23, 2009)

> I'm suggesting that the ARTISTIC elements of these campaigns NEED to evolve.



and in response to this point. While I agree with you...artistically, I have to also say that they will evolve...when the marketplace starts to not respond to them with their wallets. When that happens...they will evolve into the next marketing trend.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 23, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Brian Ralston @ 23/1/2009 said:
> 
> 
> > ?
> ...



You know...when a studio dictates that in order to get a film print to show, the theater has to agree that the first 4 weeks of a film's release (or 6+ weeks for a big film like Dark Knight), 100% of ticket sales go to the studio, and NO percentage to the theater...then yes...for the theaters, it is all about the popcorn and coke. :wink:


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> You have just proven my point Jay!!!!!
> 
> The movie *business* is not about creating "art."
> 
> ...



:lol: That was funny, but...


Why would I do that when people want to pay me?  When agents and such are telling me I'm going to be rich. :D And no, not my wife.  I think you've got me confused with someone who is STILL writing small esoteric movies for an audience of 3 1/2 people. The one I'm working on now is akin to in size and scope; The Departed/God Father etc. Only, not mob related. But yes, must be an iconic story of mythic proportion or it won't be good. Plenty commercial, but not easy to write. Definitely not easy to write. I'm working on it with flat out studio minded/studio proven folks. I guess you could say I'm playing THEIR game, but am I really? It's "my" pitch, an original idea, this isn't a re-write or some commercial crap some young desperate producer came to me with.

I am a fan of films that I view as ART.  If the studios want to view them as a commodity, fine, doesn't mean I have to. More importantly, doesn't change what they in fact are, when they are ART. 

I don't care who tells me to change my perspective, I won't. :D

I will say though, that with me in particular, you're preaching to the choir. I know what the "business" IS, I just don't choose to allow myself to start thinking in those terms EVER. Otherwise I would have agreed to write the Jerry McGuire type film or would have continued on developing the SPECTACLE. :D It's not as if I DON'T want a successful film, I just don't want a successful film that ANYBODY could have written. Most of my favorite writers/directors are very finicky. Yet, successful. :D

No, none of these people would want to work with me unless they thought this is going to lead to a lot of money. I get it.

You've still not explained why a director (along with his composer) can't kick ass on a trailer that results in MORE butts in seats. :D


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2009)

I clarified "successful" (not BIG TIME), but sure, I'd say BIG TIME if that clarifies we aren't talking about some knuckle-head indie clown producing films out of his garage.  

Not that there's anything wrong with that...owning a garage.  So yes, clarify what type of producer we're talking about, makes a big diff. 

Targeting has gotten to the point where they are flat out lying to people. I'm sorry Brian, I have a problem with that on an ethical level...if nothing else.

Ok, so this marketing talk doesn't effect your creative process. Noted. Just checking, man.  

Yep, I get it, it's not our money financing this stuff, but you've got me confused with someone who cares.  Ultimately it is the audience's money, which is what I keep coming back to. THEY spend their hard earned dollars on what too much of the time amounts to garbage. I don't believe the audience is getting dumber. The smarter they get, the more the studios want to dumb it down to try and entice them. I think the studios have it backwards.

BTW -- I'm not suggesting I want to go out there and waste peoples money on my vanity art project. I don't want to make any film unless BIG TIME  people are interested as well, and believe it will be successful. That is my barometer. Isn't that enough? I don't particularly care what anyone else looks to do with their work...totally up to them.


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## lux (Jan 23, 2009)

the only truth is that i make so much successfull threads.

I'm way too cool to be true. Yup, I am. Yup.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 23, 2009)

kid-surf @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Yep, I get it, it's not our money financing this stuff, but you've got me confused with someone who cares.  Ultimately it is the audience's money, which is what I keep coming back to. THEY spend their hard earned dollars on what too much of the time amounts to garbage. I don't believe the audience is getting dumber. The smarter they get, the more the studios want to dumb it down to try and entice them. I think the studios have it backwards.



You should care Jay. In my opinion. With your definition of whose money it is...it does not account for who is taking the risk to the tune of tens of millions and sometimes more. Sure an audience member risks a $10 ticket on a film that may be a crappy waste of two hours of their life they will never get back...but a studio or production company risks millions. 

The only way to have that make sense in the business world is to mitigate that risk some way. And to do that, you put the best people for the job in the best positions with proven track records. It is one reason it is so hard for anyone new (with little to no track record) to break into the biz. 

If you have folks willing to hire you for your creative vision and you can already make a living off of that, more power to you. That is what we are all trying to do and are doing on various levels, is it not? But you have to know that the industry you are trying to work in doesn't give a hoot about the art. They want something "new and different" because they are no longer making bank from yesterday's "new hotness" that has now become "old and busted". 

In the case of trailers, if you have a studio specifically come to you and assign you with the task of producing a trailer that is different, that is also a different scenario. It was their choice to do that. It was their risk to put you in that position...not you as the filmmaker making them do it against their wishes.

The business is not driven by the art...it is driven by the desire to make money. History has shown that it is the creators of the "art" who find a way to successfully navigate their "art" and play by the rules of business that are successful. Not the other way around.


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## lee (Jan 23, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> midphase @ Thu Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Here BTW is a link to one of my favorite trailers ever!!!
> ...



Havent read the entire thread, but midphase, really nice beats at 1:08!

/Johnny


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## Lex (Jan 23, 2009)

kid-surf @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Brian Ralston @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > You've still not explained why a director (along with his composer) can't kick ass on a trailer that results in MORE butts in seats. :D



..most of the times its 'cause first trailers are made while the director and rest of the crew are still on the set filming the rest of the bloody movie...

..Second, in most cases directors and producers at least pick the trailer version that will go out of the trailer house..

..and like everything else its not that black and white...sometimes trailer is art..Revolutinoary Road, 300, Sin City...most time is just a 12h mindless rush job, that ends up like that Defiance dissaster...

...but then again...how many really good movies that had a really crap trailer can all of you remember? 3? 5? 

aLex


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 23, 2009)

"With regards to marketing a film, the PR folks do these things for a living and know a lot better than any of us the societal trends in the marketplace and how the public will react to the various style of campaigns."

I agree with everything you say, Brian, but I've long had a strong belief that this - like all marketing, by the way - is *way* less scientific than the people involved would have everyone else believe. They can conduct focus groups until the cows come home, and at the end of the day all the set formulas taught in marketing classes may or may not work. What it really comes down to - apart from the product they're selling - is grabbing peoples' attention, first of all, but then making it appealing enough for them to open their wallets. That takes creativity, not just set formulas.

In the case of the Orff trailer cue, the reason it works is simply because there's nothing with more magnitude. A lot of that talk about "magic price points" and all that seems very posed.

In my opinion.

And I for one am glad they don't use the score for promotion!

Again, I agree 100% with you about not hiring the PR person to score the film or the composer to do PR. And I agree that good PR people know what they're doing. I'm just cynical enough to believe that a lot of marketing peoples' main market is the people they market themselves to.


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## JonFairhurst (Jan 23, 2009)

The problem with the "scientific data" is that it can be self filtering. "We did this before, and it worked," leaves no room for anything new.

There were a ton of "rational" reasons LA Confidential shouldn't have been made. It had three leads, rather than one. They were no-name actors. It wasn't contemporary. And on and on.

But it was made, it was a great film, and it was a hit. 

I think the right way to approach this is to let the people who understand their film make some promotional media - and then test it with people. See how they react. If the reaction is poor, go with the agency. If the reaction is good, go with the new guys. If the reaction is mixed, collaborate.

Keep in mind that it was the "studio experts" who watered down Orson Welles' Touch of Evil into a soft B-movie. Welles saw it and wrote more than 50 pages about how the film was intended to be. They ignored him, and it flopped. A number of years ago, some editors, including Walter Murch, re-edited the original materials based on the Welles memo. That DVD is now one of my favorite movies of all time.

Beware creativity borne of scientific data.


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## Ed (Jan 24, 2009)

rJames @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Everything evolves.
> 
> The key to evolution is, "survival of the fittest."
> 
> ...



I think it will change but it will be a slow evolution, in the same way as trailers as a whole have changed over time. It may also up to composers to do and try slightly different things, not so different that they wouldnt be able to sell the cue but eventually the trailer houses might get used to it and you could keep sensitively push things each time.

I think Two Steps from Hell are currently doing some of the most innovative stuff, sure theres a lot of stuff that sounds like standard trailer fair but if you really look theres some quite unusual stuff there as well (unusual for trailer music). Its intertesting to look at the first release because Tj was doing some pretty untrailer-like music, but on a lot of tracks it didnt have big choirs and the arrangement was more like a film cue than for trailer (thats bad) . Sure there were some hits in there that worked realy well like the one they used for Wall-E , but you can see he learnt that you have to write differently for trailers. 

I think a few of the main reasons trailer music can sound so similar to a lot of people is that if you add big shouty choirs on your cue it will automatically end up sounding like a Carmen Burana inspired style trailer cue and your generic meter in many peoples heads will go way up. Secondly, the next biggest reason is probably the arrangement as they all need more or less the same things to happen in the course of the track so a lot of the reason people think "generic" is not so much the music but the arrangement which is generic, because it has to be. 

Ed


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 24, 2009)

JonFairhurst @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> The problem with the "scientific data" is that it can be self filtering. "We did this before, and it worked," leaves no room for anything new.



Again...it makes perfect sense that the marketing campaigns are reactionary to societal trends, because they are not about creating something new artistically. They are about getting people into the film who would not automatically go see it anyway. And they are doing this to the tune of million of dollars of risk...so they are required to mitigate that risk and go with what has been proven to work many times over in the past.



JonFairhurst @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> I think the right way to approach this is to let the people who understand their film make some promotional media - and then test it with people. See how they react. If the reaction is poor, go with the agency. If the reaction is good, go with the new guys. If the reaction is mixed, collaborate.



You would not hire a director to run PR on a film. You would not hire an editor to write the score. You would not hire a PR person to come in and design the costumes. As a studio or production company, you put the best people (who have proven track records in those areas) into the various head positions and hope it all is a hit. 

o-[][]-o


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## christianb (Jan 24, 2009)

> You would not hire an editor to write the score.



well, unless you're Bryan Singer of course. 


christianb


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## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2009)

Do you all remember a film where the trailer was sooo great and the film was not, and too, do you all know a film where the trailer was bad and the film was great? :mrgreen:


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 24, 2009)

christianb @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> > You would not hire an editor to write the score.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of the hundreds of editors working in Hollywood and the thousands across the world who are trying to work in Hollywood...there may be like one or two who have a diverse resume like John Ottman and you bring him up as a common example that it could work?? :wink:  

The only reason Ottman gets work as both editor and composer is 1) He has a LONG history working with Bryan Singer in that capacity dating back to their first success together out of USC, The Usual Suspects...and 2)...he has a proven track record of success in those positions. I can't really think of anyone else who could show the same diversity and success with their track record. And don't think that Bryan Singer didn't have to fight VERY hard for that in the beginning of his career. That would be an extremely rare exception in my opinion akin to a lottery winning. Heck, working up to a successful career in just one creative position in Hollywood is akin to winning the lottery, much less more than one.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 24, 2009)

Music can probably be considered both an art form and a business - with their own delineations. In a Utopia world, it would be both - in the real world, its probably not. I personally can name hundreds of my personal favorites scored by Debussy, Ravel, Walton, Wagner, Elgar & Stravinsky that would not see the light of day in the commercial world - even though John Williams dipped in many of these composer's scores as inspiration for his own orchestral movie scores. Conversely, there are hundreds of movie scores & trailers that would probably be looked down upon by the classical music world because it didn't follow _their_ rules of music. 

In my opinion, music throughout history has been driven by economics. It was as true in Mozart's world as it is today. Scores got commissioned and composers got paid based on market demand - otherwise the music would only in rare occasions see the light of day simply written as art for art's sake.

Trailer music has its own rules like any other genre including classical and with genres such as pop, rock, jazz, etc. If some don't like any of them its a personal choice but to be hired to do one is to submit oneself to speaking in the language of the genre while trying to maintain some individualism which really isn't an easy task. In the trailer biz usually one true innovator will come up with a sound/approach that takes the industry by storm - then you have 1000s of copycats to try to simulate that original innovation - _many times because that's what the music directors want and if you're planning to get paid you might want to deliver what they're asking for_. 

Although on one hand I love the intimate sound of sweet muted strings and brilliantly executed passages and superb writing, for the incredible sound design content, timbre and instrument positioning I do happen to like certain kinds of trailer music and percussive works done well and can appreciate the amount of work that went into them. The problem with the latter are many - one innovator vs 1000s of copycats - but that's the nature of the music business, and because its a business, it seems to be driven by economics based on market demand - once again.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 24, 2009)

here is another great example of how the "business" aspect drives the daily decisions Hollywood makes. Not the creativity or the art.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003933853 (Click Here for HR Story on Fincher)


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## lux (Jan 24, 2009)

well, when i started the thread i wasnt specifically considering my personal musical inclinations agains choralbooming style. I think it works fine if used in context.

What bothered me was the fact that it had nothing to do with the movie and the visuals.

I dont think any technical explaination will never convince me that it was a good choice.

To me its more or less like placing Frodo Beggins in every sentimental comedy or western movie convinced that it will sell like hotcakes. Its just plain stupid.


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## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll have more to say later in response to previous posts...cause I gotta run...but i the meantime.


Brian -- I don't know why you're reiterating this...?



> You would not hire a director to run PR on a film. You would not hire an editor to write the score. You would not hire a PR person to come in and design the costumes. As a studio or production company, you put the best people (who have proven track records in those areas) into the various head positions and hope it all is a hit.



No one has suggested that. Pretty safe to say we all agree on that. But then again, it seems readily obvious.  There's a difference between "running PR" and "leading creative decisions" involving a trailer. Of course some directors don't want that responsibility. Shit, some directors would probably rather not have the responsibility of working with a composer. :D



> And don't think that Bryan Singer didn't have to fight VERY hard for that in the beginning of his career.



OK, now you're using words I like. FIGHT and VERY...love it! Now you're catching on, Brian. :D  Exactly right, he had to fight to get where he's at. Agreed!



> That would be an extremely rare exception in my opinion akin to a lottery winning. Heck, working up to a successful career in just one creative position in Hollywood is akin to winning the lottery, much less more than one.



Nobody is preordained to make a career for themselves in Hollywood, so? Folks can tell me till they're blue in the face how hard this all is...doesn't phase me. 

People will maybe take this the wrong way, despite me saying it matter-of-factly in regards to this idea, but: I'm already beating the odds. A "composer/musician" isn't supposed to be able to start writing screenplays out of the thin air and within a year already be working with high level taste-makers that have reputations for hating everything. A rare situation.

As well...NOBODY in town would have given me the thumbs up (meaning - "sure, sounds like a good premise for a script, go write it") had I told them what my scripts would be about BEFORE I wrote them. Folks would have told me NOT to write them, that it'd be a waste of my time, that I should write something COMMERCIAL. Why? Because "statistically" that is what Hollywood likes.

These same folks would also have told me this: "Just know it is virtually impossible for even SKILLED screenwriters with a degree in writing and 10-20 scripts under their belts to make it over the wall into Hollywood. You don't know what you're doing so don't get your hopes up." They would have assumed I was another DREAMER setting myself up for a severe wake up call, and a heavy dose of Hollywood reality. Nobody took me seriously...at first. Didn't phase me. I pushed on, dug deep, did the work.

50,000 scripts per year registered to the WGA. I knew what the odds were. They were horrible odds. Didn't mater who my wife was, this is about millions of dollars, right?

How many guys out there are writing exactly what Hollywood is supposed to want and yet get "pass" after "pass". They are sitting there with a pile of scripts thinking "but I'm following the RULES!!? What the hell!?" That goes for composers too. As they follow the rules, and or trying to mimic JW.

The point is: SCREW statistics and rules, go make it happen! Number one rule as an artists is this: MAKE "THEM" COME TO "YOU".

That's what the greats have done...they've forged their way BENDING the rules to fit their artistic needs. Following the rules is a great way to never make YOUR mark.

Hollywood: I have pretty solid insight as to what it's about. My wife has been an agent for 10 years, been at the company for, what, 15? Not just any company, THEE company. Has a fancy client list and is on the teams of many of the biggest players in the film/TV world. Great rep around town for quality material. One thing that is clear to me at this point is that Hollywood loves artists who go ALL the way there, who don't hold back, and who deliver works others plainly cannot. One doesn't arrive there (over the wall) by following rules.

In other words, one breaks in by breaking/bending the rules. At least, that was my way over the wall...and I did VERY quickly.

BTW -- I don't seek any nods/kudos, not the reason I post this stuff. Just keeping it real as opposed to hypothetical. The other thing I'll add is that; I'm very grateful these folks believe in me and want to work with me. I make every humanly effort to blow them away, to make THEM look good for taking a risk on me and believing I could deliver despite NOT having a proven track record. I suppose that's one reason people may like working with me; I go all the way there, I live in it. I do the work and don't complain about how hard it is. Who said it was easy, this is Hollywood after all. Let's do it...let's go make magic happen, let's beat the odds!!!




I'll find a way back on topic eventually. :D :twisted: :lol:


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## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2009)

Brian --

I was joking when I said _"Yep, I get it, it's not our money financing this stuff, but you've got me confused with someone who cares. "_

Hence the --> 

Of course I want the studios to make money. I want everyone to make money, a lot of it. Including myself - I don't devote 99.99% of my waking life to this to be poor. :D


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 25, 2009)

kid-surf @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> Brian -- I don't know why you're reiterating this...?
> 
> No one has suggested that. Pretty safe to say we all agree on that. But then again, it seems readily obvious.



Jon suggested it. To the point of saying the best person to put together the PR campaign of a film was the film's director. So...yes...it was said.




kid-surf @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> There's a difference between "running PR" and "leading creative decisions" involving a trailer.



Not really. 



kid-surf @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> Of course some directors don't want that responsibility. Shit, some directors would probably rather not have the responsibility of working with a composer. :D



It does not really matter what the directors want...it only matters what the studio or production company who is paying for it wants. If they want the director to put one together, then he will be hired to do so. If not...and in the world today what will almost always happen is...a PR firm will be hired to position the film in the marketplace with no input from the director or even the producers.




kid-surf @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> OK, now you're using words I like. FIGHT and VERY...love it! Now you're catching on, Brian. :D  Exactly right, he had to fight to get where he's at. Agreed!



Nobody is preordained to make a career for themselves in Hollywood, so? Folks can tell me till they're blue in the face how hard this all is...doesn't phase me. 

People will maybe take this the wrong way, despite me saying it matter-of-factly in regards to this idea, but: I'm already beating the odds. A "composer/musician" isn't supposed to be able to start writing screenplays out of the thin air and within a year already be working with high level taste-makers that have reputations for hating everything. A rare situation.

As well...NOBODY in town would have given me the thumbs up (meaning - "sure, sounds like a good premise for a script, go write it") had I told them what my scripts would be about BEFORE I wrote them. Folks would have told me NOT to write them, that it'd be a waste of my time, that I should write something COMMERCIAL. Why? Because "statistically" that is what Hollywood likes.

These same folks would also have told me this: "Just know it is virtually impossible for even SKILLED screenwriters with a degree in writing and 10-20 scripts under their belts to make it over the wall into Hollywood. You don't know what you're doing so don't get your hopes up." They would have assumed I was another DREAMER setting myself up for a severe wake up call, and a heavy dose of Hollywood reality. Nobody took me seriously...at first. Didn't phase me. I pushed on, dug deep, did the work.[/quote]

No one doubts your enthusiasm and I certainly am not one to pour water on your fire. But I also know folks who have been paid very good money to develop scripts for Warner, Paramount, Viacom and have been doing so for a greater part of 10 years. Very little of them have actually gone into production and the ones that have usually have other political forces in play or other inside connections getting those scripts green lit at the end of the day. 




kid-surf @ Sat Jan 24 said:


> The point is: SCREW statistics and rules, go make it happen! Number one rule as an artists is this: MAKE "THEM" COME TO "YOU".



I agree and I understand what you are saying. Believe me. less than 10 years ago I was working for a Neurologist, taking the MCATs and interviewing for medical schools. I understand what you are saying about getting to where you are now in the short amount of time and beating the odds everyone says are against you. Even now when people from ,my past ask me what I do and I tell them that I write music for films and television, they first look at me funny, then react in a way that says "yeah right." Then they ask...you can make a living at that? Then I sometimes never hear from them again. They just don't believe it can be done. 

But still...you have to admit there is a certain way this town works and you will get further along if you know how to play that game, instead of swimming upstream against it.


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## kid-surf (Jan 26, 2009)

CONTINUED... :D o-[][]-o 

The bottom line is this -- (let's continue being straight up...) 

...We (as in you and I, and everyone else in this game) are suggesting we are better, or will soon/shortly be better than whomever else. Isn't that the bottom line? There are only so many slots available in this town and we all, in whatever capacity, are in direct competition with each other. You are competing with other composers for gigs (guys on this very forum), I am competing with other writers and directors. How in the world could we all throw our hats into the ring of fire if we all weren't significantly arrogant about the quality of our work (Label it "confident" if that sounds better)? After all, we are implying we are some of the best in the WORLD, literally, if we are playing in the Hollywood arena. There's no getting around the fact that we all think we are great (though, nobody will openly admit to it). I'm going slightly OT when I say that I don't buy all the self-deprecation in this biz. Talk about plastic and fake. No way...otherwise we'd refer these people to someone we felt was more qualified than ourselves. We'd not have the audacity to fight for folks to enjoy our greatness (aka ART). We'd, instead, create it and put it onto a shelf. Though -- there is no use for these truths out in the marketplace. Agreed!

Where the hell am I going with this rambling?

Here: There reason I don't worry about the guys who've not had films made in 10 years (the statistics / casualties) is because I believe I am a better writer than them...Whether I've written the quintessential script that proves it yet or not. That's why I'm crazy enough to not care how shitty the odds are. If I truly believed this was ONLY about catching a lucky brake having nothing to do with the quality of ones work I would in fact...give it up.

How's that for being honest? 

Do I believe I'm THEE best in the land? HELL no! Not my point...

You know plenty who haven't been produced, I know plenty who have. They all are arrogant in one way or another (though they 'mostly' hide it in public), BUT, the guys I know are all very good at what they do...they deliver scripts others simply aren't capable of. That's a very significant factor as to why their films go into production - these guys specifically. We're not talking your run of the mill meaningless film.

As for directing: I look to guys like Billy Ray, Tony Gilroy etc. Those guys are writers first, directors of their own work, second (add Fincher, Nolan, etc. for directors). But that is an extremely small list of the guys I have tremendous respect for, which by the way...would include many producers and suits as well. 



> I agree and I understand what you are saying. Believe me. less than 10 years ago I was working for a Neurologist, taking the MCATs and interviewing for medical schools. I understand what you are saying about getting to where you are now in the short amount of time and beating the odds everyone says are against you. Even now when people from ,my past ask me what I do and I tell them that I write music for films and television, they first look at me funny, then react in a way that says "yeah right." Then they ask...you can make a living at that? Then I sometimes never hear from them again. They just don't believe it can be done.



Right, and even more so with your pals who work in the industry. At least for me it's that way. Everyone is skeptical and jaded. I have so many marks against me (which includes the fact that my wife is an agent) but I don't focus on them...I push forward. 

Here's the funny part. My "friends" in the industry, once they heard I was writing, they wanted no part of reading any of my scripts. They initially said they did, but they didn't mean it. I didn't expect them to mean it, as I get how this works. Yet...once they heard that folks more popular than them liked it, suddenly they wanted to take a look. That TOO is how this town works. 

I get it, it's a jungle out there, but you know what...fuck it. :D If it's not me, it'll most definitely be someone else. I think it should be me, too, is all. :D

I have a conference call today with high level folks to discuss the project I'm working on. That wouldn't have been the case had I not set out to try things on my own terms. I'd probably still be struggling to get a decent indie gig on film which employed a script worse than what I could do. That is honest, and that is the reality.



> But still...you have to admit there is a certain way this town works and you will get further along if you know how to play that game, instead of swimming upstream against it.



We don't disagree on the way this town works, we disagree on the direction of the stream. 

***DISCLAIMER*** My words here are only my own and no one else's. I do not believe I'm Gods gift to art, but do believe I've got something to offer.


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## kid-surf (Jan 26, 2009)

While I'm thinking of it, let me ask you a question: If you were to decide you wanted to write a script tomorrow how wold you go about it. Would you target? What is the best way to have ones script land in Hollywood? Just curious what your perception/philosophy is on that...

You seem to have convictions about the ways it's hard, so now tell me how you'd do it.  Just for fun.


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## lux (Mar 6, 2009)

back to the topic, i quite like that watchmen trailer with the Muse. Sometimes songs do so much a better favour to movies than average scoring. The choral first half was good too imho.

http://movies.apple.com/movies/wb/watch ... 2_480p.mov


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## Evan Gamble (Mar 6, 2009)

I like the new Terminator Trailer with Nine inch nails "the whole world went away."

NiN almost always makes a great trailer.


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## Ed (Mar 7, 2009)

The Muse track is good, I also like the really dark track (Smashing Pumpkings I think someone said) in the first trailer :D 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONQ3Zgy195Y


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## Ed (Mar 7, 2009)

Evan Gamble @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> I like the new Terminator Trailer with Nine inch nails "the whole world went away."
> 
> NiN almost always makes a great trailer.



Wow didnt even know about this film so I looked it up, looks pretty cool actually!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OScn6D5ub30


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## JohnG (Mar 7, 2009)

lux @ 6th March 2009 said:


> back to the topic, i quite like that watchmen trailer with the Muse. Sometimes songs do so much a better favour to movies than average scoring. The choral first half was good too imho.
> 
> http://movies.apple.com/movies/wb/watch ... 2_480p.mov



The music that begins this trailer sounds like Einstein on the Beach -- almost a direct lift of the entire style / approach / sound.


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## Evan Gamble (Mar 7, 2009)

JohnG @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> lux @ 6th March 2009 said:
> 
> 
> > back to the topic, i quite like that watchmen trailer with the Muse. Sometimes songs do so much a better favour to movies than average scoring. The choral first half was good too imho.
> ...



That's cause it is Philip glass.


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## JohnG (Mar 7, 2009)

Ha! I thought someone had just swiped it.

Thanks Evan


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