# Books on composition...



## Christian Marcussen (Apr 20, 2006)

Hi... Reading another thread here, I felt like I wanted to spend some money on some composition books.

Stephen Rees recommended 'Fundamentals of Musical Composition' and Peter Alexander recommended his Applied Professional Harmony 101... I'm tempted.

Regarding the later, has anyone used and tried it? Can you comment? I'm also debating on getting the PDF or the book... hmm...

I have also considered Writing for Strings - anyone tried it - comments?

Your of course welcome to chime in Peter, but I would love to hear some user comments.

Now - are there other books you might recommend on composition? One of the thrings I really want to improve is my harmonic writing. I would like some book that takes me by the hand and guides me through things.

So all you people who have studied music, please comment on varrious text books. Thanks.


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## Scott Rogers (Apr 20, 2006)

..........


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2006)

In my studies I've gone to some rather obscure places and read some rather obscure books. 

The ones that I highly recommend I do so for one reason. That is I found that the information was so valuable that I couldn't write music with out it. 

I'll place them in the order that I received them as I think that the order that I read them is important. 

1) Rimsky Korsakov-orchestration 
2) Mike Longo (do and internet search) Jazz/Rock/Pop Harmony and systematic chord substitution. 
3) Berlioz Strauss-Orchestration 
4) Fux Counterpoint (I studied way before any of the others but didn't really learn how to apply counterpoint until I read the above and reread Fux) 
5) Bach Figured Bass 
6) Mozart letters 
7) Messiaen(sp) Techniques of my musical language 
8) Santiyana (Aesthetics) 
9) Henry Mancini (orchestration) 
10) Wanger-Music and Drama (fell asleep. Threw it away. I'll have to reread it) 
11) Rameau Treatist on Harmony (book 2 only. The other two books will bored me to tears) 
12) Schoenberg (the book you mentioned is tops) The harmony book of his I found too basic and practically unusable. Too academic and to top it all off the progressions it eventually leads to sound bad. Much like Transfigured Night. Something about this guy and harmony just didn't get a long. Plus I think to be effective at harmony you need to get away from the idea of Functional Harmony which is what his book eventually implies though in his foreword he denies it. Personally I can't stand the guy but he did write some good stuff about motives and motivic variation and structure. But his harmonic ideas are too clunky. 

I read a lot more but these are the only books I've found so far that actually had useful information. 

Basically it's all quite simple and a lot of people have written a lot of works on a few basic principals. The trick is, and I'm still doing it, the trick is to find the basic information. The fundamental information. Once understood then you can go forward from there. 

Scott Rogers also has some good things to say. He should write a book sometime. I really get a lot out of what he says and his idea about Polymotivic writing in film saved my bacon Tuesday and yesterday. 

Oh one more book. Hindemith Elementary Training for Musicians. That book will kick your ass left and right. I've only been able to make it 1/2 way through without totally crashing and burning. But the pursuit will sharpen your musical application in a way that most people only dream of. 

No time to spell check. 

Best, 

Jose

edit: I forgot about the Persichetti book. 20th century harmony. Can't do without it.


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 20, 2006)

Thanks alot - keep 'em coming. I'll be getting the Persichetti book ASAP...

And whats this about Polymotivic writing?


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 20, 2006)

btw Jose... the books you mention that have to do with Jazz etc... are they of any use if I have no interest or knowledge of Jazz music - are they applicable for classical/orchestral music?


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2006)

Christian Marcussen @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> btw Jose... the books you mention that have to do with Jazz etc... are they of any use if I have no interest or knowledge of Jazz music - are they applicable for classical/orchestral music?



Actually I find that if you want to do American film music Jazz harmony and it's theory are far more useful than any harmonic theories that classical music puts forth. Heck, after all Stravinsky and Copland both borrowed from jazz. And, Ravel even started to borrow from blues. Much more expressive and rich language. Where would John Williams be without jazz harmony?

So, yes. I didn't really understand any use for Harmony until I read Jazz Harmony. After that Rameau's book on harmony made more sense. Mike Longo (the jazz harmony guy) actually starts off by quoting some of Rameau's books and then moves on to bigger and better things. Including drills and how to apply harmony in real life. Which unfortunately very few classical people wrote anything about except for Bach, who was primarily a jazz improve guy anyway. :shock: :lol: 

Shame the way people play Bach these days. No swing no accents no dynamics. I heard a performance once of a Bach piece done with harpsichord, 2 violins and cello. The performers where these child prodigy like people and they had passion and fire and they played with the hell fire and brimstone that The Bach's music was meant to be played with and boy did that stuff rock hard. Especially since the Harpsichord guy was reading off a figured bass chart instead of notes. He was improving the acc. Fingers flying. Soft keys. Immediate switch to the loud keyboard and back to soft. Man that's the way it should be played.

So in short jazz has a lot more on the ball than what most classical people might think. And the truly successfull contemporary composers of orchestral music have their roots in jazz. Including many of the Hollywood golden age. It's America's unique language.

Jose


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 20, 2006)

Thanks for the great reply Jose... I'll check it out.

Speaking of Bach... I seem to recall that some of his choral peices were great to study for anyone wanting to learn about harmony and voice leading... you have any names of such peice?


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## Craig Duke (Apr 20, 2006)

"Sondheim on Music: Minor Details and Major Decisions" is a long interview of Stephen Sondheim by another composer. While not, and not meant to be, a thorough study of any particular aspect of composition, it is a book on specific compositional processes and techniques used by Sondheim. It has plenty of Sondeim's musical examples and technical talk about process, harmony, melody, use of rhythm, orchestration, making choices, etc. SS talks about what he learned from Lenny Bernstein, Oscar Hammerstein, and others. A great read and useful as a secondary text and a look into the process of one composer.


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## Scott Rogers (Apr 20, 2006)

..........


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## Craig Duke (Apr 20, 2006)

Christian Marcussen @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> Speaking of Bach... I seem to recall that some of his choral peices were great to study for anyone wanting to learn about harmony and voice leading... you have any names of such peice?[/quòKm   7Ä­Km   7Ä®Km   7Ä¯Km   7Ä°Km   7Ä±Km   7Ä²Km   7Ä³Km   7Ä´Km   7ÄµKm   7Ä¶Km   7Ä·Km   7Ä¸Km   7Ä¹Km   7ÄºKm   7Ä»Km   7Ä¼Km   7Ä½Km   7Ä¾Km   7Ä¿Km   7ÄÀKm   7ÄÁKm   7ÄÂKm   7ÄÃKm   7ÄÄKm   7ÄÅKm   7ÄÆKm   7ÄÇKm   7ÄÈKm   7ÄÉKm   7ÄÊKm   7ÄËKm   7ÄÌKm   7ÄÍKm   7ÄÎKm   7ÄÏKm   7ÄÐKm   7ÄÑKm   7ÄÒKm   7ÄÓKm   7ÄÔKm   7ÄÕKm   7ÄÖKm   7Ä×Km   7ÄØKm   7ÄÙKm   7ÄÚKm   7ÄÛKm   7ÄÜKm   7ÄÝKm   7ÄÞKm   7ÄßKm   7ÄàKm   7ÄáKm   7ÄâKm   7ÄãKm   7ÄäKm   7ÄåKm   7ÄæKm   7ÄçKm   7ÄèKm   7ÄéKm   7ÄêKm   7ÄëKm


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2006)

Christian Marcussen @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> Thanks for the great reply Jose... I'll check it out.
> 
> Speaking of Bach... I seem to recall that some of his choral peices were great to study for anyone wanting to learn about harmony and voice leading... you have any names of such peice?



I studied counterpoint using Bach Fugues from the Well Tempered Clavier and I studied Voicleading from the Bach 371 Chorals. Best $40 I ever spent.

Bach's approach to counterpoint differs from the standard Fux method. Bach beleive that you should start with 4 part choral writing then move into the canon and fugues. He believed that if you didn't understand how to write 4 part harmony that you couldn't possibly correctly write in 1 or 2 or 3 parts. He was correct in a way. The first Prelude in his WTC is just 1 part but it's so harmonically beautiful and rich that it makes me cry every time I hear it. And, since it's only one part I can actually play it.

But,....personally I prefer the music before Bach. Just me. I'm really impressed with the Counterpoint of composers like Palastrina and I'm totally knocked off my feet with prebaroque music. So I've followed kind of a different path.

Though Bach chorals come it handy for pop tunes. Everybody goes wow.

Jose


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 21, 2006)

I really think studying scores is the best way to go, although you can supplement that with some specific book study. I know I recommended the Schoenberg book in the other thread, but that was because I got the impression the person asking the question was just starting out studying composition, and so a book would be a more friendly way to start than by diving in and trying to learn to read full scores which can be pretty daunting.

I would add something to the above though. They are all good suggestions. But........don't study anything just because someone tells you it is important to do so. Focus your attention on studying music with a sound world you want to add to your palette whether it be the harmonies used, orchestration, rhythms - whatever. You have an idea of what direction you want your music to go in. Find music that sounds like that, buy the scores and figure out how they work.

Edit : That Persichetti harmony book looks really useful Scott. I hadn't heard of it before and I've just ordered a copy. Thanks for recommending it


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## choc0thrax (Apr 21, 2006)

For me the best thing was studying scores + listening to the music. It helps though if you know the piece well enough to hear it all in your head anyways all the way through. I bought 5 books off of amazon a while back- the study of counterpoint, the technique of orchestration, the shaping forces in music, tonal harmony(almost 700 pages!) and the complete idiots guide to music theory. This ended up costing a lot of money and the only book out of the 5 that I read was the complete idiots guide. Browsing the other books I get the feeling I would have wasted time reading and done myself no good by trying to learn rules to which I don't know why they are rules anyways.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2006)

Studying scores is great. The only problem with only studying scores is that you never get to know the thought that went behind the scores. A great composer that has bothered to write anything in words about music and/or technique of music is a rare thing. Those words are golden. They give us insight into why music has the effect it does.

I think it goes hand in hand. You can study Stravinsky for years and learn a lot. But until you actually read the 12 ways in which a motive can be varied or at least think about it theoritically much of what he's doing will be lost.

Jose


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 21, 2006)

[quote:086016b1f4="Christian Marcussen @ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:19 pm"]Hi... Reading another thread here, I felt like I wanted to spend some money on some composition books.

Stephen Rees recommended 'Fundamentals of Musical Composition' and Peter Alexander recommended his Applied Professional Harmony 101... I'm tempted.

Regarding the later, has anyone used and tried it? Can òL:   7óL:   7óL:   7óL:   7óL:   7óL:   7ó	L:   7ó
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RE: Writing for Strings. the 4th Edition posts on Tuesday of next week. But based on your questions, APH101 might be the better place to start. Possibly add to that my Professional Orchestration Book 1.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Peter


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## choc0thrax (Apr 21, 2006)

josejherring @ Fri Apr 21 said:


> Studying scores is great. The only problem with only studying scores is that you never get to know the thought that went behind the scores. A great composer that has bothered to write anything in words about music and/or technique of music is a rare thing. Those words are golden. They give us insight into why music has the effect it does.
> 
> I think it goes hand in hand. You can study Stravinsky for years and learn a lot. But until you actually read the 12 ways in which a motive can be varied or at least think about it theoritically much of what he's doing will be lost.
> 
> Jose


That's nice for those who are able to sit through reading some of these books but I cannot do it. I get the feeling i'd end up worse had I read them. Don't want to start composing and spending much time thinking up all these weird theory rules and writing some boring technically correct thing. I guess the textbooks don't suit everyone.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Fri Apr 21 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Apr 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Studying scores is great. The only problem with only studying scores is that you never get to know the thought that went behind the scores. A great composer that has bothered to write anything in words about music and/or technique of music is a rare thing. Those words are golden. They give us insight into why music has the effect it does.
> ...



Nah. You're using your prejudice to stop you from learning something.

Truth is all art has rules. You need to use them in order to write something that makes sense.

Even your hero Danny Elfman learned chords and theory in a very traditional way.

If you learn the rules in the correct way then they lead to further innovation. Problem with a lot of people is that they mistake opinions of other composers for rules.

You have to look for the underlying principles that govern the construction of coherent music. The only trap is that you'll have to weed through tons of garbage to come out with perhaps 3 or 4 principles, and they aren't that hard to remember. :wink:


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## Daryl (Apr 22, 2006)

josejherring @ Sat Apr 22 said:


> Nah. You're using your predice to stop you from learning something.


I agree. The thing about having music theory knowledge is that you can always choose to ignore the conventions. In the end you have to be governed by your ears, but having a good theory grounding is a sure fire shortcut to knowing why something doesn't work. It also lets you know when you are only writing clichÃ©s. :lol: 

D


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## choc0thrax (Apr 22, 2006)

I'd read a theory book if they came out with the complete idiots guide to music theory 2 or something. Something readable that's a bit more advanced than the first book.


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 24, 2006)

All the book mentioned are great...Jose, Scott and Peter comments are always very good ones and IÂ´d beieve on them!!!
IÂ´ve got APH 101 and 102 but havenÂ´t studyed them yet...based on my browsing theyÂ´re very good and complete ones like all the other Peter publications!!!
I only would fill the list of the books with some more:
Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony by Tchaikovsky - he teaches harmony in a very simple way and the most amazing thing is that you just need to open the book in any page and browse some more to start opening your mind and writing cool harmonies!!!
Harmony by Piston - very different approach from the master Schoemberg Harmony and very detailed in composition, while you are learning harmony you are also aplying composition!!!
Counterpoint by Schoemberg - tend to be boring because of the many clefs you need to write but itÂ´s a knowledge any professional composer should have today!!!
Structural function of hamony by Schoemberg - this is a more advanced hamony book applying composition and arrangement!!!
And donÂ´t forget that itÂ´s up to you if you want to use "rules" or not in your composition...theyÂ´l only provide you more freedom!!!


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## José Herring (Apr 24, 2006)

Great Leo. I didn't even know the Tch. and the Piston book where around. I'll look into them immediately.

Jose


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## Aaron Sapp (Apr 24, 2006)

:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


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## fictionmusic (Apr 25, 2006)

Like some of the others I agree with the Perschetti recommendation...excellent book.

I also agree with a lot of Jose's list especially the Hindemith. He also has another one (that tries to justify a chromatic scale from lower partial overtones of various keys a wee bit spuriously) but has an excellent way of looking at chords (viewed as either having a tri-tone or not, and whose root is based on acoustic roots of intervals) Very interesting and an excellent resource.

I studied books by Gordon Delamont which were broken into composition texts (1, 2 and 3) and then into arranging texts. They are emminantly practical but also expalin everything from a pyscho-acoustical viewpoint as well as a traditional theoretical stance.

some others (already listed in some cases) 
Henry Mancini (Sounds and Scores)
Nelson Riddle (Arranged by Nelson Riddle)
Earle Hagen (scoring for films)
Leon Dallin (Techniques of 20th century Composition)
Don Sebesky (The Contemporary Arranger)\
Piston Orchestration
Kennan and Graham Orchestration text (my fave)
Tremblay (he definitive cycle of the 12 tone row)

and finally a great resource: Ken J Williams (Music Preperation.a guide to music copying)

The people who recommend using scores are spot on (although I agree with Jose that it should be supplemented with theory texts) and studying Stravinsky scores especially is a great way to learn orchestration. The thing is he writes for top-end players and it is wise to study some guys like Prokofiev and Copland who wrote stuff that is far easier to play on a an average level. It is wise to get the average range as well as the exceptional for all the instruments I think (which is why the Kennan and Graham orch. text is invaluable)


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 25, 2006)

josejherring @ Mon Apr 24 said:


> Great Leo. I didn't even know the Tch. and the Piston book where around. I'll look into them immediately.
> 
> Jose


Yes, aparently the Tchaikovsky one was translated to english language not a long time ago!!!
IÂ´ve forgoten to mention the Conterpoint by Piston - it has a completely diferent way to teach than all the other counterpoint books...it does not lead you by composing for two, three and so on and even does not give you the counterpoint rules!!!


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## synergy543 (Apr 25, 2006)

Has anyone else read the Craft of Musical Composition by Paul Hindemith? Its been quite a while since I read this but I found his approach to intervals and relative dissonances quite interesting. I swear I had a copy lying around here but it seems to have "walked away".  

I recommend this for an interesting and different approach. I've always wondered how this compares with the EIS method? Any similarity?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0901938300/sr=8-2/qid=1146014846/ref=sr_1_2/103-6643097-3673441?%5Fencoding=UTF8 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/090193 ... oding=UTF8)


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## fictionmusic (Apr 25, 2006)

synergy543 @ Tue Apr 25 said:


> Has anyone else read the Craft of Musical Composition by Paul Hindemith? Its been quite a while since I read this but I found his approach to intervals and relative dissonances quite interesting. I swear I had a copy lying around here but it seems to have "walked away".
> 
> I recommend this for an interesting and different approach. I've always wondered how this compares with the EIS method? Any similarity?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0901938300/sr=8-2/qid=1146014846/ref=sr_1_2/103-6643097-3673441?%5Fencoding=UTF8 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/090193 ... oding=UTF8)



Yah this is the one I mentioned several posts earlier (i didn't name it though) where he builds a chromatic scale based on the first partials of several related overtone series and makes chord catagories based on whether they have tri-tones or not. He calls the root of the chord whatever the acoustic root is of the interval contained that is lowest in the overtone series. 
I had a teacher who studied with George Russel (the Lydian Chromatic technique) and part of his study with Russel was that book (indeed Russel's theories owe a lot to Hindemith), so I studied it quite a bit.
I think everyone after Schoenberg was trying to codify a system that organizied intervals, lines and chords on a consistant and non-tonal basis. The overtone series is a great place to do it from. Gordon Delamont has a similar approach in his first book as well (ie examining intervals and acoustic roots based on their placement in the series). The problem with Hindemith's theory is that he believes in the invertabilty of intervals, so credits some intervals as occuring earlier in the series than they actually do. (ma 6th for example)


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## synergy543 (Apr 26, 2006)

Thanks for detailed summary. I guess I'll have to buy another copy to read it again.


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## fictionmusic (Apr 26, 2006)

another thing about Hindemith's theory...in a chord like Cma7 (no 5th) he'd call the E the root as the strongest interval is the 5th from the 3rd to ma7. 
Delamont would call it a Cma7th and forego using the 5th as it is implicitly stated in the root to ma3 (via combination tones ie)


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