# Which Reverb For True Sounding Rooms and Halls?



## screws (Aug 26, 2012)

In my quest to get better sounding mixes I find that reverb seems to be a weak link, even though I've been using my TC Electronic M3000 and Waves IR-L for quite some time. It seems like nothing sounds real, which is frustrating since many of the IRs I've acquired for Waves are real spaces. Weird that real spaces can sound fake! Maybe it's the IR-L, or maybe it's the way I'm using it.

I do get nice dry sounds - drums from BFD2, real acoustic and electric guitar and bass tracks, Miroslav Philharmonik orchestra, Mojo Horns, 4Front pianos, etc. - but so far haven't been able to make it sound like it was recorded in a real space. 

I've done some searches here, and see that everyone loves SPAT, which I've tried and agree sounds amazing, but the sad reality is I have to limit my purchase to $100 - $150.

I've begun demoing IRCAM Verb Session, 2C Breeze, RaySpace, MeldaReverb and so far haven't really had a WOW! moment with any of the presets yet.

Your opinions are greatly valued.


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## RiffWraith (Aug 26, 2012)

screws @ Sun Aug 26 said:


> In my quest to get better sounding mixes I find that reverb seems to be a weak link, even though I've been using my TC Electronic M3000 and Waves IR-L for quite some time. It seems like nothing sounds real, which is frustrating since many of the IRs I've acquired for Waves are real spaces. Weird that real spaces can sound fake!



Not to sound flippant, but do you know the way real spaces are supposed to sound? Have you ever recorded in a concert hall, or a space like (as one ex.) the Sony scoring stage? Have you ever heard raw, unprocessed recordiings of instruments recorded in such a space? I don't know your level of experience, so I can't be one to judge, but perhaps the verb you are using is fine, but for some reason you think it isn't. Best thing to do is post a few audio examples, and let some others give you some feedback. Hard to know what it is you are listening to and hearing, w/o audio.

I was going to suggest QL Spaces - that is one of the (if not the) best IR verbs out there, but is costs $299. That said, there is NO WAY you are going to find anything better than the TC Electronic M3000, Waves IR-L, and the others you mentioned later in your post for $100.

Cheers.


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## mark812 (Aug 26, 2012)

Try ValhallaRoom.

Also, try Breeze/Aether with Den's custom presets.


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## Daryl (Aug 26, 2012)

You should be able to get a good sound with any of the verbs you mention. I agree with Riff; post something, maybe the dry version as well, and see if you can get some useful critique.

D


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## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 31, 2012)

What about combining:
Take the first ERs of your Waves IR-L and the Tail of the M3000.

If you could post an example of a recording with THE reverb you like we could give you probably a better support. 
Because with another 150.00 you can't get the solution but probably with better adjustments of your current reverbs...

Best
_Beat Kaufmann_


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 31, 2012)

Have you tried my free Bricasti impulse responses or checked the demos at www.samplicity.com? These IRs are still regarded as the most accurate and clean captures of the Bricasti, Lex 960L and TCE 60000. 
And when yóu work with impulse responses make sure to understand the principles of True Stereo. A lot of people get disappointing results by using mono to stereo impulses using a standard but incorrecting bussing setup.

Cheers,
Peter


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## leafInTheWind (Aug 31, 2012)

Speaking of the Bricasti impulses, for logic users there is a sdir version of the impulses to be found at logic pro help for use with space designer.


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## Resoded (Aug 31, 2012)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ 31st August 2012 said:


> Have you tried my free Bricasti impulse responses or checked the demos at www.samplicity.com? These IRs are still regarded as the most accurate and clean captures of the Bricasti, Lex 960L and TCE 60000.
> And when yóu work with impulse responses make sure to understand the principles of True Stereo. A lot of people get disappointing results by using mono to stereo impulses using a standard but incorrecting bussing setup.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter



Interesting, is the quality of the reverb from the IR affected by witch VST I use it in? So for example, does Altiverb sound better using this IR than Reverence?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 31, 2012)

No, based on what I know from the convolution algorithms, it should not make a difference. But maybe AltiVerb may add some coloring, on purpose. But this is just an assumption of mine. 

With IRs it is very important to understand that you need 4 IR channels, thus quad IR files or two stereo IR files for one preset for stereo material.


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## wst3 (Aug 31, 2012)

some additional thoughts...

First, you seem to have an idea, in your mind's ear, of what you want the mix to sound like, at least with respect to the virtual room. That is more than half the battle!

Second - realism is a funny thing. Sometimes we have to go beyond real in the process in order to get something that sounds real as a result.

One way to approach this is to learn a little bit about the physics of how sound behaves in a room. In a smaller room the sound never becomes reverberant, or rather it never becomes statistically reverberant. That's an important distinction, and one that really helped me when I was mixing pop stuff.

You seem to have tools that should let you get pretty close to that sound you hear in your mind. The suggestion about posting dry and full mix copies might be a big help.

I can also vouch for the Bricasti impulses that Peter provides. I'm not a big fan of convolution reverb - or rather my current system is not really up to the task, but I have spent a few hours playing with them and I think they sound great.


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## MacQ (Aug 31, 2012)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri Aug 31 said:


> With IRs it is very important to understand that you need 4 IR channels, thus quad IR files or two stereo IR files for one preset for stereo material.



So, am I setting up 2 stereo FX returns with a convolution reverb on each? Or a single quad-channel return with a suitable (which?) 4-channel IR reverb?

I'd love to know!

Thanks!


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## screws (Sep 1, 2012)

Sorry I've not been here to answer, I was distracted with a problem with my studio system for a few days. Thanks for all the replies and I guess the first lesson learned is the problem is not with my verbs but rather my technique. I've always been a simple "send a mono aux to a stereo verb" kind of guy but I see now how that's not enough to get a great sound.

Just as a background, I've been a pro musician/singer for a lot of years, recorded with my band at the Hit Factory in 1970-71 and performed in my share of halls, theaters and nice sounding rooms. I've attended plenty of concerts hearing rock, pop, musical theater, worship bands in large churches and symphony orchestras in my 60 years so I know what a real room, hall or church sounds like. The Hit Factory had a beautiful sounding plate and a crazy sounding stairwell, so I've got a memory of those as well. I've built a decent little studio and want to better my mixes using IRs and/or my M3000. 

Many of the IR rooms and halls I've heard have an obnoxious resonance that I find really annoying and distracting. But I think what I'm after is not only better tone, but also to get a realistic soundstage for a typical band setup, or a band plus orch setup. 

I've read a few things tonight about messing with the ER/Tail balance to get a better sound. I'll be trying all of these concepts in the coming days. Not sure how to isolate the ER in IR-L. It's simple in the M3000.

Lately I've been using the IR-L as an inline plugin on certain tracks, or on an aux track. When it's inline I usually have it setup as a mono to stereo plug, but I'm beginning to think I'm missing the whole "placement in a stereo space" concept. I've yet to find a way to get guitars, drums or pianos to sound like they're on a concert stage. I'm totally unclear about the 2 X stereo IR setup you've mentioned - can you elaborate? 

Today I got a nice sound on a vocal track using the Bricasti Vocal Plate inline, wet amount 1.50 percent. It's funny how hot the Bricasti IRs are compared to some of the others I've collected. Most of the others I can run up to 10-18 percent wet. 

I'm all ears, guys. Teach me, please, and thank you.


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## P.T. (Sep 1, 2012)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri Aug 31 said:


> Have you tried my free Bricasti impulse responses or checked the demos at www.samplicity.com? These IRs are still regarded as the most accurate and clean captures of the Bricasti, Lex 960L and TCE 60000.
> And when yóu work with impulse responses make sure to understand the principles of True Stereo. A lot of people get disappointing results by using mono to stereo impulses using a standard but incorrecting bussing setup.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter



The site doesn't seem to be working.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 1, 2012)

P.T. @ Sat Sep 01 said:


> Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri Aug 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Have you tried my free Bricasti impulse responses or checked the demos at www.samplicity.com? These IRs are still regarded as the most accurate and clean captures of the Bricasti, Lex 960L and TCE 60000.
> ...



It's back online. My two servers also host a very popular blog (from my son) that sometimes takes them down.


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## quantum7 (Sep 1, 2012)

MacQ @ Fri Aug 31 said:


> Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri Aug 31 said:
> 
> 
> > With IRs it is very important to understand that you need 4 IR channels, thus quad IR files or two stereo IR files for one preset for stereo material.
> ...



I would like to know also.


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## Tod (Sep 2, 2012)

quantum7 @ Sat Sep 01 said:


> MacQ @ Fri Aug 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri Aug 31 said:
> ...



Here is a sketch of how I understand True stereo Reverb.












If this is not correct would someone please point it out to me.  

A question for Peter or anyone else who knows.

Is there any reason to not use True Stereo Reverb if CPU and RAM are not a factor?


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## Tod (Sep 5, 2012)

Tod @ Sun Sep 02 said:


> *Is there any reason to not use True Stereo Reverb if CPU and RAM are not a factor?*



Just a little bump in case anyone knows the answer to my last question.

I'm just wondering if there are any types of projects that would be best not to use True Reverb with left and right stereo impulses?


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## Per Lichtman (Sep 11, 2012)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri Aug 31 said:


> No, based on what I know from the convolution algorithms, it should not make a difference. But maybe AltiVerb may add some coloring, on purpose. But this is just an assumption of mine.
> 
> With IRs it is very important to understand that you need 4 IR channels, thus quad IR files or two stereo IR files for one preset for stereo material.



I did a fair amount of comparison testing a few years back. There were definitely differences between different plug-ins in terms of how they sounded with the same IR at the samplerate, a result that was backed up by consistent preferences in blind testing by the listeners I invited in.

The Altiverb sound tends towards a sort of thickness. It can be helpful in beefing up sounds that may sound thin to start with. TL Space, Voxengo Pristine Space and Perfect Space as well as VSL Convolution Plug-In all sound more transparent by comparison.

There are differences between the other engines as well, but I usually use whichever one is on the system I am working with at that moment as the more neutral color and Altiverb as the less neutral one.

Perhaps I'll be able to post some examples of this in action down the line.


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## Per Lichtman (Sep 11, 2012)

screws @ Sun Aug 26 said:


> I've done some searches here, and see that everyone loves SPAT, which I've tried and agree sounds amazing, but the sad reality is I have to limit my purchase to $100 - $150.
> 
> I've begun demoing IRCAM Verb Session, 2C Breeze, RaySpace, MeldaReverb and so far haven't really had a WOW! moment with any of the presets yet.
> 
> Your opinions are greatly valued.



I don't think you'll find a reverb you fall in love with in that price range.

On the unrealistic end, I seem to remember that Audio Damage's EOS falls into that range (and it may not be realistic but it really help fill in a track).

At the other extreme are products like Numerical Sound's FORTI or SERTI, Quantum Leap Spaces and the Altiverb library.

FORTI and SERTI have the smoothest decay into the end of their tails, Quantum Leap Spaces is the easiest to integrate with other Quantum Leap libraries and Altiverb has the largest library. The only thing they have in common is costing more than you suggested - but at least one of them should definitely give you a "wow" moment.

Numerical Sound also has an older library called Hollywood Impulse Responses that is much closer to your price range, but several people here have emphasized the importance of "true-stereo" IRs and the library definitely does not feature True Stereo.

Still, it is the cheapest option out of the ones I discussed that targets a realistic sound, so you might want to check it out.

And if all of those things fail: try setting up an FX template to enhance whatever reverb unit you are already using instead. Try setting up a bus/track/aux (depending on your software) that is dedicated just to processing the send from a given track, before it hits the reverb. Or try processing the reverb itself.

Using filters or shelves to modify the high end and low end before you hit the reverb can have a very dramatic result right off the bat.


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## Diffusor (Sep 13, 2012)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Fri Aug 31 said:


> Have you tried my free Bricasti impulse responses or checked the demos at www.samplicity.com? These IRs are still regarded as the most accurate and clean captures of the Bricasti, Lex 960L and TCE 60000.
> And when yóu work with impulse responses make sure to understand the principles of True Stereo. A lot of people get disappointing results by using mono to stereo impulses using a standard but incorrecting bussing setup.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter



Your M7 impulses are way bright when comparing to my real unit. They are good don't get me wrong and were what finally decided me to get a M7.


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## John Rodd (Sep 23, 2012)

Per Lichtman @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> screws @ Sun Aug 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I've done some searches here, and see that everyone loves SPAT, which I've tried and agree sounds amazing, but the sad reality is I have to limit my purchase to $100 - $150.
> ...



+1


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## Tod (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi John, I see you seem to have a lot of experience with this. Personally I haven't had a lot of experience with True Stereo Reverb so I'm wondering if you can answer my question above.

I assume there are obvious times when using True Stereo Verb might be overkill and unnecessary but still I'm wondering if and what types of projects that would be best not to use True Stereo Verb and possibly why?


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## John Rodd (Sep 23, 2012)

Tod @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> Hi John, I see you seem to have a lot of experience with this. Personally I haven't had a lot of experience with True Stereo Reverb so I'm wondering if you can answer my question above.
> 
> I assume there are obvious times when using True Stereo Verb might be overkill and unnecessary but still I'm wondering if and what types of projects that would be best not to use True Stereo Verb and possibly why?



To me a true stereo reverb simply means that a sound that is hard left has it's reverb stay hard left... and a sound hard right has it's reverb stay hard right

.... as opposed to being stereo, but more present on the left. (or right, as the case may be)

I use all sorts of different reverb techniques (and reverbs) .... and all I ever do is listen to the project, and tracks... and decide what sounds best.

If I recorded the score even better.. as I can make a plan from the beginning, and then select & place the mics according to this plan. 8) 

I don't have any specific guidelines as to how I use different reverbs and reverb techniques... other than listen, and make it sound good! :mrgreen: 

cheers

John


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 23, 2012)

The answer to these types of questions is rarely a piece of equipment, but I've been experimenting a lot with VSL's MIR recently and keep being more and more impressed. If Dietz is around he'll point out that it's a mixing engine rather than just a reverb, but ambience and placement are really what it does best.

I also really like VSL's Hybrid Reverb, possibly because of the programs as much as the processor itself. What I like so much about it is not so much that the spaces are more (or less) believable than anything else, it's just the way it marries to whatever you put through it without sounding artificial.

The other point is probably obvious, but if not it's worth mentioning that the ear has no problem suspending disbelief and dealing with several different spaces in a mix. All the instruments in an orchestra want to be in the same room, but the snare, lead vocal, horns, strings, and guitars, etc. can all be in separate spaces no problem.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 24, 2012)

Somewhat in that price range ($249USD) is B2 from 2C Audio. Several forum members have been using that in significant ways in their templates - sometime in addition to and sometimes to the exclusion of other, more expensive options. It has a free trial period. So you can't lose out by downloading it for trial. 

For an overall orchestral setting you might want to try the preset, Berlin Hall. 

The only caveat is that in OSX it's currently 32-bit only. They say they will be updating it to 64-bit shortly. It's already 64-bit in PC. 

.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 24, 2012)

Jack, did B2 convince you in comparision to your other reverbs? I tried it but did not have an epiphany so far ... but that may be me. Since everybody else is so positive I wonder what your opinion is.

EDIT: hmm ... after revisiting I seem to get an approach on it ... quite nice.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi Hannes,

There are a couple sweet spots that the B2 hits that other things don't . For the price range, it would be hard to find any so fruitfully useful. 

Every good reverb has things that others don't. B2 is good and holds to this rule.

I currently find it good for an overall reverb for a virtual orchestra. It has a good sense of stage. There is also an insert preset floating around that makes Sample Modeling brass what it should be. Plus, it's fx presets are very good. There are a lot of presets I've haven't tried yet. Looking forward to it being 64-bit on OSX.

I like a lot of different reverbs (plus spatializers). I generally prefer hardware. This is an unusual case where I like a software piece. I also like the VSL Hybrid reverb. The VSL is out of the price range of the OP, so I've been concentrating my comments to his needs.

HTH

.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 24, 2012)

Jack, thanks for your opinion, much appreciated.

To the OP ... some verbs are more suited to beef things up, few are capable to be 'transparent' and 'real'. One overlooked candidate for the latter category is 2016 StereoRoom by Eventide / Princeton (I have the Princeton version but maybe the Eventide is nearer to the source?) that is worth a try.

EDIT

In order to back up what I try to say here is a snippet that I recorded just today for our own Allan Brown, with different reverbs. B2 is 'full' with a lively tail (Amazing Medium Hall preset by [email protected]), Relab LX480 is quite euphonic with some minor tail movement, 2016 StereoRoom is the most inconspicouos of all and therefore maybe most 'real' (apart from the cello note hanging over in the tail ... hmmm ....) and Quantum Spaces with So. Call Strings Hall is again beefing things up a bit.

http://strings-on-demand.com/demos/B2.mp3
http://strings-on-demand.com/demos/LX480.mp3
http://strings-on-demand.com/demos/2016_StereoRoom.mp3
http://strings-on-demand.com/demos/QuantumSpaces.mp3

On hindsight I would probably decide for the B2 version.


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