# Cheap vs. Expensive Interface for Piano Recordings



## FredericBernard (May 25, 2022)

Hey guys,

I am just in the process of recording my acoustic upright piano.

So I've just spend 1k for two mics and peripherals (e.g. including stands, cables etc.), and another 1k for two smartphones, which I want to use for video recording of the sessions.

Now the interface I've bought, is the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 3rd Gen, for 150 bugs...
I know...cash-wise that's far-off from the other gear! But apart from possibly more in- and outputs, would I actually get a better sound on my recordings, if I'd spend maybe 400 $, or even more, for a better interface? If yes, which one would you advise to pick? What about the "Focusrite Clarett+ 2Pre"?

As always, happy for your ideas! 

PS: possibly a bit of topic, but does anyone of you record with 3 mics or even more, with an upright piano, or would you consider this as an "mic overkill"? Of course I'd need a different interface then, with more XLR inputs than only 2, as which I'd get with the Focusrite interfaces I've mentioned before.

Best,
-Frederic


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 25, 2022)

I’m not familiar with those interfaces, but make sure you’re getting a unit with low noise floor, good converters and crystal clear pre amps. Definitely don’t skimp on those factors. Are you using PC or Mac?


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## FredericBernard (May 26, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I’m not familiar with those interfaces, but make sure you’re getting a unit with low noise floor, good converters and crystal clear pre amps. Definitely don’t skimp on those factors. Are you using PC or Mac?


Hey Jeremy,

I am on PC.

Cheers!
-Frederic


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## LA68 (May 27, 2022)

Maybe check out Julian Krause's youtube channel. I feel like his videos are quite helpful in making a decision on interfaces.



https://www.youtube.com/c/JulianKrause


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## ReleaseCandidate (May 27, 2022)

Nowadays you don't need to think about interfaces being 'not good enough'.
Mic placement and the room's sound are _way_ more important (and harder to get right or fix). 
You can always use a coloring (anything else doesn't make much sense) mic pre if you think you need one.


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## gsilbers (May 27, 2022)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Nowadays you don't need to think about interfaces being 'not good enough'.
> Mic placement and the room's sound are _way_ more important (and harder to get right or fix).
> You can always use a coloring (anything else doesn't make much sense) mic pre if you think you need one.


 This. it sums it up nicley.


Its been almost a decade of constant one uppings from interface companies and nowadays of these will sound about the same in terms of preamp and conversion quality. you wont hear a big difference, or any of all if its not fast A/Bbetween the fousrite or a uad or rme or anthelope etc. much more important the player and the room, then the mics and position. for multi mic just watch out with phase issues or phase in general. 

Id say drivers is the big difference along with onboard dsp for effects. some are into low latency although for solo piano its not much of an issue. And when i say drivers id have to make a point of how important this is. I got a behringer uphoria which sounds as good as my rme 20x as much but coudnt use it much as the drivers kept failing and had issues. So no matter if the sound quality is there, if i cannot use it and its not robust then its of no use of course. 

So if you have an interface that works for you (amount of inputs, mic pre, etc) then thats it. you wont get a big chnage if you switch to rme, or uad etc. The only thing would be that with UAD you get to choose mic preamp modeling which can or cannot be usefull for you. I rather have a simple mic pre/channel strip to record. I use a warm audio 73 to get that vintage type sound. but thats just me. others like it clear and later add stuff.


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## José Herring (May 27, 2022)

Ideally you'd want to get a good mic preamp for those expensive mics then your interface only needs to handle the DA/AD conversion. Most interfaces these days I've good converters in them. I listened once to a live recording done and then converted using various interfaces. Of the five tested I thought the presonus Quantum 2020 sounded best so I bought that one and it hasn't disappointed. It even has good preapms but when doing really critical recording and you want to get the most out of those mics, getting a dedicated preamp like the Grace Design stuff is good. Not too colored and clean sounding. Another clean sounding one that I like a lot though it is colored is from Shadow Hills. And there was one other but now I can't remember the name :(

On the budget side here's a little hack I've used to great results. Get a lesser expensive tube amp like the
ART Digital MPA II​Replace the tubes with more expensive tubes like the Telefunken tubes (tubes are usually fairly inexpensive but the cheap ones sound fairly bad) and you'll have a good mic pre with digital outs directly into any interface. That way you won't have to worry so much about the quality of the interface as long as it has ADAT (lightpipe) connectors. I think ADAT even clocks itself so you may not even need to get a wordclock for it. If you do, Art and Behringer make workable wordclocks for cheap. I honestly can't figure out why spend $1000's on a wordclock, maybe it makes a difference but it seems to me that a wordclock is a wordclock and as long as it syncs has zero jitter and doesn't pop and click can't figure out why some are $4000 and some are $160.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 27, 2022)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Nowadays you don't need to think about interfaces being 'not good enough'.
> Mic placement and the room's sound are _way_ more important (and harder to get right or fix).
> You can always use a coloring (anything else doesn't make much sense) mic pre if you think you need one.


I think the last thing you need is a "colouring" pre amp for recording an acoustic instrument, IMO you want one with a good dynamic range and crystal clear.


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## ReleaseCandidate (May 27, 2022)

To the OP: instead of 'investing' money in a preamp/interface, chances are you need lighting for your videos. And _this_ is a rabbit hole where you can burn way more money than on interfaces or preamps, if you really want to 



José Herring said:


> That way you won't have to worry so much about the quality of the interface as long as it has ADAT (lightpipe) connectors.


As soon as your interface has ADAT you don't have to worry about the quality of the interface  



Jeremy Spencer said:


> I think the last thing you need is a "colouring" pre amp for recording an acoustic instrument, IMO you want one with a good dynamic range and crystal clear.


I rephrase: the only reason to not use the one in a Focusrite (or any other decent interface) - and you have to ask - is because you want one that colors your tone.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2022)

Yeah, if you're using ADAT lightpipe, run a wire connection as well and use it for clock. Even ADATs used a 9-pin cable for clock and just ran audio through the lightpipe without clocking to it.

The digital clock embedded in lightpipe can get jittery (technically it gets jittery when recovered). Especially over longer runs, it can affect the sound at best and result in clicks and pops at worst.

***
The answer to the original question is that better interfaces sound better, but converter quality is a lot more subtle than mics and mic preamps. And of course the piano, room, recording technique, playing technique... those kinds of things come first.


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## Jrides (May 27, 2022)

Some of the comments in this thread are strange. To the OP. The interface you are looking at is fine for what you are trying to do. Assuming you are recording a performance and not trying to create a sample library. I honestly only see a problem with buying two phones for the video. That’s one area where it seems money could have been better allocated.

that being said… Again the preamps, converters, and drivers are fine on the Focusrite, for what you are doing.


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## José Herring (May 27, 2022)

Jrides said:


> Some of the comments in this thread are strange. To the OP. The interface you are looking at is fine for what you are trying to do. Assuming you are recording a performance and not trying to create a sample library. I honestly only see a problem with buying two phones for the video. That’s one area where it seems money could have been better allocated.
> 
> that being said… Again the preamps, converters, and drivers are fine on the Focusrite, for what you are doing.


I think all the answers are valid. He spent a lot of money on mics so he should know that he'll get the best results pairing those with top quality preamps and converters.

Or, if he's happy with just the preamp and converter on the focusrite then he should just do that. 

I also assumed that of course he's going to need a good room, instrument, player and mic positions. 

I know for us usual composers we think ah, just record with your $150 interface but truth is there are degrees of quality and that won't usually lead to the best.


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## FredericBernard (May 27, 2022)

A couple of highly interesting replies here.

The mics I am using are a pair of AKG C214.

As for the interface: I could certainly order another interface, so I can compare the Focusrite one, to the other one, and send the expensive one back, if it shouldn't make a whole difference. However, which one would you advise to buy? I think, money wise around 400-700 bugs would be ok.

As for the phones: sure, at first glance, this sounds like a pretty stupid idea, haha. It's just that they have damn good cameras, and this for a good price as well. Even my old Huawei makes gorgeous photos and videos. I decided for phones as well, simply as using them seems to be a very popular option - judging from a plethora of 'how to record your piano' tutorials. Even the very professional ones often use them.

Also, what about the number of mics? As asked above, does it make any difference to have even more than just two mics? I know that the difference between one vs two mics is huge, but is it worth to invest into even more than two mics?

Best,
-Frederic


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## easyrider (May 27, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I think the last thing you need is a "colouring" pre amp for recording an acoustic instrument, IMO you want one with a good dynamic range and crystal clear.


Buts thats why engineers use 1073's


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 27, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Buts thats why engineers use 1073's


Of course, the clarity is top notch.


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## easyrider (May 27, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Of course, the clarity is top notch.


But it also adds "colour"


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## Jrides (May 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I think all the answers are valid. He spent a lot of money on mics so he should know that he'll get the best results pairing those with top quality preamps and converters.
> 
> Or, if he's happy with just the preamp and converter on the focusrite then he should just do that.
> 
> ...


no. My primary experience with music, over the decades, is not as a composer, rather a mix engineer. I also have experience with expensive microphones, preamps and inexpensive sound cards, all the way up to custom hand made converters. Used to collect outboard vintage gear the way you guys collect string libraries. Given the lack of details provided by the OP about their situation, the advice that made the most sense was about mic placement and room treatment. There’s simply not enough information to make any other type of specific recommendations.

we don’t know the OP’s room situation. We don’t know which microphones are being used. We don’t know what type of sound they are looking to achieve. We don’t know the purpose of the recording. The above post saying that converters are not the weak link in a modern recording set up, is spot on. .


would I change some things about what the OP decided to buy? Maybe somethings. Probably everything other than the converters, if I knew what microphones were being used. However… Regarding the question of converter choice, in this case you should be able to capture a perfectly fine recording.


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## LA68 (May 27, 2022)

FredericBernard said:


> A couple of highly interesting replies here.
> 
> The mics I am using are a pair of AKG C214.
> 
> ...


Suggestion I forgot to make...Audient ID14 Mk2. I don't own it, but the recordings I've heard sounded great and the thing has received a lot of praise.


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## Joe_D (May 27, 2022)

My list of priorities, in descending order, for a piano recording in a room:

Quality of the pianist and the music
Quality of the piano
Preparation of the piano (tuning, voicing, regulation, getting rid of extraneous mechanical noises)
Size and shape of the room
Room treatment
Quality of the mics (the 214's will be fine)
Placement of the mics
Quality of the mic preamps (the Scarlett are ok for this task)
Quality of the converters (Scarlett ok)

They're all important, but if there are flaws/problems/weaknesses in the things nearer to the top of the list, it makes little sense (to me) to spend money fixing the things nearer to the bottom of the list unless they are truly inadequate. 

Yes, if the mics, pres, and convertors were terrible, I'd invest in upgrading them, but otherwise I'd spend money getting the piano serviced and the room treated.

If you have a gorgeous piano in a nice sounding room, then, yes, mics and pres make a big difference. I have spent a lot of time and money on both.

I don't do video, so I'm not commenting on the video part of your setup.

As for the number of mics, phase cancellation is always a problem with pianos, which radiate sound in all directions in a non-uniform way, and which generate lots of reflections in most rooms. For that reason, a stereo pair is usually a great choice; it corresponds to your two ears, which are used to hearing pianos in rooms. 

No matter where you put a third or fourth mic, some frequencies reaching it will be out of phase with your main pair, and that will change from note to note, coloring the sound. I've certainly experimented with it plenty, but usually end up using a stereo pair in the final mix. 

If your room is big and sounds great, you could experiment with a distant pair of room mics (maybe ribbons, or omni condensers), turned pretty far down in the mix. I wouldn't think about spending money on that until you've got everything else dialed in.


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## easyrider (May 28, 2022)

Jrides said:


> no. My primary experience with music, over the decades, is not as a composer, rather a mix engineer. I also have experience with expensive microphones, preamps and inexpensive sound cards, all the way up to custom hand made converters. Used to collect outboard vintage gear the way you guys collect string libraries. Given the lack of details provided by the OP about their situation, the advice that made the most sense was about mic placement and room treatment. There’s simply not enough information to make any other type of specific recommendations.
> 
> we don’t know the OP’s room situation. We don’t know which microphones are being used. We don’t know what type of sound they are looking to achieve. We don’t know the purpose of the recording. The above post saying that converters are not the weak link in a modern recording set up, is spot on. .
> 
> ...


“The mics I am using are a pair of AKG C214.”


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 28, 2022)

Jrides said:


> no. My primary experience with music, over the decades, is not as a composer, rather a mix engineer. I also have experience with expensive microphones, preamps and inexpensive sound cards, all the way up to custom hand made converters. Used to collect outboard vintage gear the way you guys collect string libraries. Given the lack of details provided by the OP about their situation, the advice that made the most sense was about mic placement and room treatment. There’s simply not enough information to make any other type of specific recommendations.
> 
> we don’t know the OP’s room situation. We don’t know which microphones are being used. We don’t know what type of sound they are looking to achieve. We don’t know the purpose of the recording. The above post saying that converters are not the weak link in a modern recording set up, is spot on. .
> 
> ...


Yes, fair points. Even with high end recording gear, bad room treatment and improper use of mic’s (among other things) will result in a bad sounding recording.


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## FredericBernard (Sep 15, 2022)

I eventually dumped the two smartphones and bought a Panasonic Lumix. 

Just improvised a short bit this morning, feedback (also on the sound "engineering" I roughly applied) is very much welcome.


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## José Herring (Sep 15, 2022)

FredericBernard said:


> I eventually dumped the two smartphones and bought a Panasonic Lumix.
> 
> Just improvised a short bit this morning, feedback (also on the sound "engineering" I roughly applied) is very much welcome.



First the good. The playing is top notch. Now the bad. The recording is amateur. The room isn't that good but you can work around that with some good preamps and better mic placement.

What recording chain did you end up using? Where did you place the mics?

Reading back through this thread, I don't know why people object so strongly about getting good mics and good preamps to record instruments. I've never seen a professional high level engineer show up to a gig with mics plugged directly into their computer interface preamps.

So I'll say again. If money is a problem and you don't want to drop $1000+ on a good preamp, then even getting lesser good tube preamp and working in more high quality tubes will help a lot. 

To work around a bad room, it's part psychological. You play as if you're planing in the best hall on the planet which is usually more expressive and taking some time to let the room reverberate around your performance. Then, you carefully add reverbs. One to create a "room" and another to create a hall. Also, if possible try and move the piano away from the wall.


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## proggermusic (Sep 15, 2022)

Jose, I definitely know engineers who use onboard interface preamps for professional sessions, particularly remote sessions – but, of course, they're very high quality (RME, etc). I actually think the modern Scarlett interface pres are perfectly good for something like this, but completely agree about room and mics. The room would be the first thing I, personally, would address. Moving the piano further back from any walls and then treating those walls with some quality panels (GIK, etc) would make for a dramatic improvement.

I'm not saying great preamps don't make a difference, they certainly do. Just that trying to hide a bad room behind great preamps would be a very expensive exercise in futility!


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## aaronventure (Sep 15, 2022)

FredericBernard said:


> Just improvised a short bit this morning, feedback (also on the sound "engineering" I roughly applied) is very much welcome.


The C214 is a side-address cardioid mic, why is yours pointing at the ceiling? This could be why the recording sounds "boomy".

To answer the question in your original post, 3 mics would not be mic overkill. If you got a third mic and placed it above your head/in between the two stereo mics, you could dial it in to give the recording a more grounded center, because if you record an upright with two cardioids spaced wide, sometimes there you'll have the sense of a hole in the middle if you're hard-panning them. 

Regarding interfaces, Focusrite is fine. When recording stereo, you want the mics at the same gain, so a digitally controlled pre-amp will give you 100% accuracy there. If you need an interface _just_ for recording, you may consider getting a Behringer X Air XR18 and not worrying about the number of mic inputs ever again, especially if you're gonna be taking it places (unless you decide you want to record orchestras or other big groups).


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## José Herring (Sep 15, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> Jose, I definitely know engineers who use onboard interface preamps for professional sessions, particularly remote sessions – but, of course, they're very high quality (RME, etc). I actually think the modern Scarlett interface pres are perfectly good for something like this, but completely agree about room and mics. The room would be the first thing I, personally, would address. Moving the piano further back from any walls and then treating those walls with some quality panels (GIK, etc) would make for a dramatic improvement.
> 
> I'm not saying great preamps don't make a difference, they certainly do. Just that trying to hide a bad room behind great preamps would be a very expensive exercise in futility!


I use them too, but my main chain uses a modified tube amp and even in my living room which does have high ceilings and a pretty decent sound I can get some really great recordings. That's really all I'm trying to push. Care enough to at least put some care into some part of the chain.

I hear you though. Now that I've had a chance to hear his recording just about everything is off. I honestly never cared for the AKG mics on anything. Even my Sterling mics get a better sound than what I remember of the AKG mics. The room is not a good one to record in. Reminds me of a practice room. The mics are not in a great position. The piano not in a place that would maximize whatever room you're in. So there's a lot that needs to be handled.

Recital halls at a university or college actually aren't that much to rent. I'd put the money into that and take a laptop and his mics and stands and record there.


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## FredericBernard (Sep 15, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> The C214 is a side-address cardioid mic, why is yours pointing at the ceiling? This could be why the recording sounds "boomy".
> 
> To answer the question in your original post, 3 mics would not be mic overkill. If you got a third mic and placed it above your head/in between the two stereo mics, you could dial it in to give the recording a more grounded center, because if you record an upright with two cardioids spaced wide, sometimes there you'll have the sense of a hole in the middle if you're hard-panning them.
> 
> Regarding interfaces, Focusrite is fine. When recording stereo, you want the mics at the same gain, so a digitally controlled pre-amp will give you 100% accuracy there. If you need an interface _just_ for recording, you may consider getting a Behringer X Air XR18 and not worrying about the number of mic inputs ever again, especially if you're gonna be taking it places (unless you decide you want to record orchestras or other big groups).


Behringer X Air XR18 might be a "slight" overkill haha. Still I'd be keen on a further discussion, in 2 vs 3 mics + the pre amp situation. 

Also, you guys are right about the mics pointing at the ceiling, which is an issue that is obviously easy to fix on. The boomy-ness possibly origins from a too distinctive bass boost EQ-ing, which I've applied?

Room actually could be changed into a much smaller one, which's walls are lined-out by corg, if this does at least a slight difference?


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## aaronventure (Sep 15, 2022)

FredericBernard said:


> Behringer X Air XR18 might be a "slight" overkill haha. Still I'd be keen on a further discussion, in 2 vs 3 mics + the pre amp situation.


I suggested that as an endgame semi-pro recording solution which is dirt cheap considering it's easily transportable and comes with 16 digitally controllable Midas preamps with a built-in interface. There are plenty of more expensive analog-control preamps with half or less than half the inputs, and they're mostly rack format, so carrying it around is less than ideal, and you still need an interface with a corresponding input to record.

You might want to add room mics in the future, etc. With the middle mic, that's 5. If you decide to buy one of the cool new mics that offer dual-diaphragm outputs so you can control the polar pattern in post, your input requirement doubles.

So my recommendation was based solely on eliminating the need to change that part of your setup if you decide to scale up at any point in the future and save money without really sacrificing any quality.



FredericBernard said:


> Also, you guys are right about the mics pointing at the ceiling, which is an issue that is obviously easy to fix on. The boomy-ness possibly origins from a too distinctive bass boost EQ-ing, which I've applied?


Possibly. I'd recommend setting the mics properly (light-grey side aimed at the hammers, then try setting the mics 30cm away from the piano, 90cm between the mics), making sure the preamp gain is equal for both mics and posting the result again without any processing, so we can hear the raw sound.



FredericBernard said:


> if this does at least a slight difference?


Depends on how far your mics are from the piano. With the cardioids at 30cm away, it won't make a significant difference.


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## proggermusic (Sep 15, 2022)

FredericBernard said:


> Also, you guys are right about the mics pointing at the ceiling, which is an issue that is obviously easy to fix on. The boomy-ness possibly origins from a too distinctive bass boost EQ-ing, which I've applied?
> 
> Room actually could be changed into a much smaller one, which's walls are lined-out by corg, if this does at least a slight difference?


Re. room – a smaller room would definitely hurt, not help! It's good to have as much space around the instrument as possible. Moving it away from the wall, not closer to more walls, would be a good idea, if possible! 

You want to point the capsules of your mic toward the source of the sound, and ideally, you should have a few feet between the mic and the instrument. You definitely shouldn't have to add any bass in post with a piano!


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## FredericBernard (Sep 16, 2022)

Again, thank you so much for your help guys! 

Some changes I did today: 
-changed the mics vertical position - now with the microphones noses faced towards the keys 
-changed the mics about 30cm away from the piano, with horizontal space between the mics being around 90cm 
-moved the piano just a slight bit back from the wall 

Here's a rough, short sample I've just recorded (nothing spectacular): 


What do you think, is this an improvement, or rather the contrary? This time it's the raw audio, with just a bit of normalisation applied in Audacity. 

Cheers!
-Frederic


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## aaronventure (Sep 16, 2022)

That's a significant improvement, don't you think? I think that sounds lovely.

More things you can try:

Raise the mics a bit, they sound like they're rather close to the keyboard and there's a lot of key noise. If you turn them so the their "noise", as you say, is pointing upwards (with the silver side pointing at the hammers), the bottom housing of the mic should reduce the high frequencies of the keyboard clicks and make them slightly less noticeable.

But, the noises are part of the charm of an upright recording, especially when done with cardioids. You can't quite avoid it, but you can reduce how noticeable they are by experimenting with positioning.

You can, of course, do spectral denoising and key noise reduction in RX.

This is your mic's polar pattern.





The cardioid pattern has the most attenuation along the rear axis. At the sides, it's still catching the sound, albeit more quietly. So keep that in mind when experimenting.

Regarding moving the piano away from the wall, if you're going to do it, you should move it away enough so that comb filtering isn't a problem, otherwise you might end up with problems in your recording. But for an intimate setup like in this recording (30cm from the hammers) this will not be an issue. If you decide to record the mic from the back, then yes.

There are so many ways you can record an upright, and the right one depends on what kind of sound you're going for. A distant, softer sound is more often associated with classical recordings, while a more intimate setup is more often used for pop/rock/jazz etc. But there are no hard-coded rules, it all depends on what sound _you _want.

Here's a video you may find interesting, regarding using cardioid mics with a bit more distance:


I think ORTF sounds lovely here. 17cm between the capsules, at a 110deg angle.


Bonus reading: If you are going to try ORTF, put the whole setup far enough so that the entire piano "fits" into the +/- 45-50 degree angle left and right of the mic setup. This way, the stereo image will be filled up evenly. The whole setup too close (piano ends more than +/- 45 degrees left/right away from the mics), and there will be too much separation, too far and there will be too little).

For an AB setup with 30cm between the mics, that angle is 40 degrees.

See Michael Williams' Stereophonic Zoom for more reading on this. Here's a shorter version that sufficiently explains this and has practical diagrams: https://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/22300-GraceDesignTheStereophonicZoombyMichaelWilliams.pdf

Also, here's a nice visualization for ORTF. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

Welcome to the world of recording!


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## proggermusic (Sep 16, 2022)

Great advice from Aaron!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I think the last thing you need is a "colouring" pre amp for recording an acoustic instrument, IMO you want one with a good dynamic range and crystal clear.


Just saw this. Actually you’d be surprised at how equipment - mics and preamps mainly - with a color can work on anything.

I have a preamp (a Millennia Media channel strip) that lets you choose between tube color and invisible solid-state circuits, and also you can switch a colorful transformer in and out of the circuit. It’s always interesting which combinations work on what with which mic.


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## FredericBernard (Sep 17, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> That's a significant improvement, don't you think? I think that sounds lovely.


Well, it sounds very different. Actually more clear and bright, but with less warmth
and maybe too much attack and less "body". But maybe I just have to get used of it.

You are right about the keys noise too! Just raised the mics a bit today!



Is this better as the yesterday sample I've posted. I think the keys noise is quite unfortunately still there. What can be done on giving the sound a bit more warmth? Possibly EQ-ing?

Also thank you so much for the other guys as well, which commented on my inquiry! This is why I love this community.

Cheers!
-Frederic


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## aaronventure (Sep 17, 2022)

It sounds pretty good on my end here. Not sure what you're monitoring on.

For warmth, a bit of saturation in the low end will go a long way. You can also cut down on transients in the high frequencies.

If you post a wav file that I can download, I'll give it a spin.


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## FredericBernard (Sep 17, 2022)

This would be great! 

Please find the wav as attached.

PS: I am actually using Bose quiet comfort headphones here for monitoring.

Best!
-Frederic


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## aaronventure (Sep 17, 2022)

Here you go. Loudness matched so you can do a fair comparison. RX de-noise a bit, then transient reduction in low mids and mids, a bit less in highs, a slight low shelf gain below 100 Hz, and (gently) above 6 kHz, tube saturation in the lows and highs.


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## FredericBernard (Sep 18, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> Here you go. Loudness matched so you can do a fair comparison. RX de-noise a bit, then transient reduction in low mids and mids, a bit less in highs, a slight low shelf gain below 100 Hz, and (gently) above 6 kHz, tube saturation in the lows and highs.


Thank you so much for investing your time, this indeed sounds a lot better!

Best,
-Frederic


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## TinderC (Sep 18, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> Here you go. Loudness matched so you can do a fair comparison. RX de-noise a bit, then transient reduction in low mids and mids, a bit less in highs, a slight low shelf gain below 100 Hz, and (gently) above 6 kHz, tube saturation in the lows and highs.


The result sounds good and less boxy than what I've experienced in the past with an upright. Granted that the major factors are the pianist, the piano, the room and the mic placement, but still I'd like to experiment with some of your processing so let me ask:
- how did you match loudness? Did you use a LUFS VST?
- which tool did you use for transient reduction?
- do you recommend a particular VST for tube saturation?

Thanks!


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## FredericBernard (Sep 21, 2022)

TinderC said:


> The result sounds good and less boxy than what I've experienced in the past with an upright. Granted that the major factors are the pianist, the piano, the room and the mic placement, but still I'd like to experiment with some of your processing so let me ask:
> - how did you match loudness? Did you use a LUFS VST?
> - which tool did you use for transient reduction?
> - do you recommend a particular VST for tube saturation?
> ...


I was to ask about the same questions. Insights would be appreciated (@aaronventure ).

As for my recording plans...I am also thinking of renting a concert hall / studio maybe for a day or two. Should be affordable, if I'd do it not particulary in Germany, but for instance in Prague. Would love to hear of experience, recording in a rented studio enviroment.

PS: how would you rate this piano recording sound? Never understood, why this guy is banging it, going that viral. The external reverb etc. is clearly hearable, but I wonder if he actually records with just the camera mic, simply as I can't see any external mics in the video footage?!



Cheers!
-Frederic


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## aaronventure (Sep 21, 2022)

TinderC said:


> The result sounds good and less boxy than what I've experienced in the past with an upright. Granted that the major factors are the pianist, the piano, the room and the mic placement, but still I'd like to experiment with some of your processing so let me ask:
> - how did you match loudness? Did you use a LUFS VST?
> - which tool did you use for transient reduction?
> - do you recommend a particular VST for tube saturation?
> ...


Reaper has a LUFS analysis tool. For realtime, I use Insight from iZotope. 

I just used the transient shaper from iZotope. I imagine most of them will work, though you'll fare better if it lets you adjust the "release". Newfangled does this, but I was keen on testing Ozone 10. This was a better option than doing just compression and aiming for the notes, because transient shaping doesn't care about threshold. 

FabFilter Saturn is awesome. iZotope's Exciter, too. These are multiband, with Saturn having a lot more options including distortion types, feedback, dynamics, and modulation. It can be dead simple, or insanely complex.


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## aaronventure (Sep 21, 2022)

FredericBernard said:


> As for my recording plans...I am also thinking of renting a concert hall / studio maybe for a day or two. Should be affordable, if I'd do it not particulary in Germany, but for instance in Prague. Would love to hear of experience, recording in a rented studio enviroment.


A studio will be equipped to cater to all of your needs, and the engineer will likely offer advice and suggest different microphone setups. If they have a big enough locker and sufficient number of preamps and inputs, they'll likely set them all up and let you hear the differences in the control room after recording. This does depend on the studio and the engineer, so asking around or calling them might be a good idea first.

Concert halls may or may not be equipped for recording. The people they have on call may or may not be recording engineers (more often it's live guys). This varies heavily between venues. Higher-profile venues will often have a whole studio at the location as well, but then you're gonna be renting that as well. When labels or studios that offer location recording get to a hall, they will often bring their own equipment, unless it's a venue they rent often and have an arrangement with.

You can also pick the studio that offers location recording, and then pick the hall without worrying whether they're equipped for recording or not.



FredericBernard said:


> PS: how would you rate this piano recording sound? Never understood, why this guy is banging it, going that viral. The external reverb etc. is clearly hearable, but I wonder if he actually records with just the camera mic, simply as I can't see any external mics in the video footage?!


In my opinion it's too boomy. Whether due to the recording situation or due to no low-cut in the reverb (or a combination of both), it's hard to tell. From a quick look at his channel, his audio quality is all over the place. Sometimes it's camera audio, sometimes it's the small handy XY recorder, almost always incorrectly placed (mics just lying down on the lid) because he's now lugging a stand around.

If he's going viral, it's not because of audio quality.

For this specific video, if I had to guess, I'd say the mics are behind the piano, because it sounds sufficiently detailed and I can't hear any keyboard/player noise. That could have something to do with the boomy sound. Large diaphragm condenser cardioids (like your AKG) are usually omnidirectional at lower frequencies, and this behavior extends into the low mid range, which is why they are more bassy than small diaphragm mics. Sometimes this is desirable (vocals, because the singer may move a lot and the proximity effect would be a lot more pronounced on small diaphragm mics; close miking celli or basses in an orchestra), but sometimes this can lead to issues (if you put them in the small space between a piano and a wall).

If he's using the handy recorder, it's a different story and depends on the make, the mics on it etc. My first instinct would the to doubt that, because I can't hear any preamp hiss in the audio. It's squeaky clean. Was it denoised? If he cares that much that the denoised the audio here, how is he okay with all the other potato quality audio in the videos as recent as 3 months ago?

If you wanna talk with a tinfoil hat on, you can approach this by recording the video not caring about audio quality, then simply play it back in your DAW and use a VI piano. This takes _a lot_ of time if you do it by hand, but you can just convert audio to MIDI with Melodyne and do corrections, which is a lot quicker.


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## PaulieDC (Sep 21, 2022)

LA68 said:


> Maybe check out Julian Krause's youtube channel. I feel like his videos are quite helpful in making a decision on interfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/c/JulianKrause


This.


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