# Bashing John Williams



## rJames (Jun 23, 2013)

Collectively, we've done enough HZ bashing for a few lifetimes. 

And I don't know how much stuff you can come up with in a thread with this title but one cue has ALWAYS bothered me.

The Bar Scene from the first Star Wars. I guess they went with campy. But ever since I studied EIS I thought there could have been so many cooler ways to go with that scene.

A band of aliens that just happens to play a kind of New Orleans jazz. (I know thats really not a good description)

The movie is serious for the most part. Why not create some seriously futuristic use of music? At least they tried to do future in The Fifth Element.

Seriously disappointed. (but I'll give him a pass based on his body of work)

Ron


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

Did it occur to you that perhaps that was what George Lucas wanted from JW?


----------



## rJames (Jun 23, 2013)

Of course. George is quite the composer I hear.


----------



## Christof (Jun 23, 2013)

I love the bar scene and the music, it has something ironic because it sounds so traditional against the futuristic images.Some futuristic use of music would be too obvious in my eyes.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

By and large film composers write what the directors tell them to write. For all you know, John wrote a cue in the style of Varese and was asked to change. Don't assume.


----------



## Ciaran Birch (Jun 23, 2013)

Ha. That cue is actually one of my favourites!  But not because of the movie, it's the first big long music sequence in the game Star Wars: Dark Forces 2.  It was my first video game (my dad got it for me for my confirmation would you believe!) and it is the one tune that sticks in my head. That was the game that started my love of video games, and then Deus Ex 1 catapulted me into the "OMG, games are fantastic" realm. 

But sorry, back on track. Love the cue because it holds a sentemental memory for me.


----------



## Lenny13 (Jun 23, 2013)

> it's the first big long music sequence in the game Star Wars: Dark Forces 2



Same here  What a game by the way.


----------



## dcoscina (Jun 23, 2013)

Its not the future. It's "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away..."

Jazz reigned supreme. 

And for the record, Pauline Kael had few good things to say about Williams' music in what we now regard as his most significant period of writing (late '70s t early '80s) thus proving that critics, regardless of their status, are mostly full of shit.


----------



## Ed (Jun 23, 2013)

Thankfully they didnt try and make some futuristic music, it would have been early synth cheese.


----------



## rJames (Jun 23, 2013)

I guess you guys are missing my point. I'm just a little surprised that 19th or 20th century Earth music was so popular in the universe. Have you heard what they're doing over on Neqiz3usbtar? I challenge you not to dance to that shit.

Christof As if the rest of the music in star wars doesn't sound traditional against futuristic images....

Ed, you nailed it. That is exactly what I think John Williams would have come up with for aliens to be playing in a bar. I'm sure he would have gone to synthesizers and laser sounds.

This scene strained my sensibility to even suspend my disbelief.

Varese? Is that what aliens would play in a bar? Fun...


----------



## bluejay (Jun 23, 2013)

As already mentioned, George Lucas specifically requested music in this style so Williams was doing what the director wanted.


----------



## Ganvai (Jun 23, 2013)

@ rJames:
What did you want to hear? Dubstep?

The funny thing about this music is, that the whole soundtrack is so classic, this jazzy thing really sounds modern to me in the moviecontext.

You have to remind that the whole idea of Star Wars was to make a traditional knight-movie in space, inspired heavily by history, Akira Kurosawas Seven Samurai and the German Nibelungen. I think the last part is responsible for that John Williams was very on Wagner for his score to Star Wars.

So in all this context, freaking Jazz is pretty modern in this scene.

I'm not that good in history of music, but wasn't Jazz the Rebellmusic when John williams and George Lucas were young? :D

I'm pretty happy with that scence and the movies. So, bashing failed :lol:

PS: I remember that in the new Star Trek movie was a scene where Scotty was drinking his Whiskey in a disco and there was modern techno playing. This scene was so strange cause Scotty was always a character who would fit into a bar/pub but not into a vampire-techno-hell. I don't think that it is helpfull to trimm everything into the techno-direction just because it is futuristic.


----------



## TGV (Jun 23, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> I guess you guys are missing my point. I'm just a little surprised that 19th or 20th century Earth music was so popular in the universe.


It also surprises me that they speak English throughout the universe, a few species excluded, and that there are so many species with two eyes, two feet two hands, in size somewhere between 1m and 2m, most frequently around 1m75, dressing in trousers or robes and with customs that remind of our culture.

Now, why did George Lucas not attempt to do something truly alien, like a cloud of gas or an intelligent but totally anarchistic shade of blue? Because his movie would have gone straight to video. You want to make a blockbuster? Better stick with what the audience likes. The music in the bar scene (which sounds more rag-time to me) is the favorite of quite a few people.

Although I think the comparison between Williams and Mozart is highly exaggerated, Williams is a fine composer with the talent to define a movie musically.


----------



## rJames (Jun 23, 2013)

OK, OK, it was great. I loved it. It fit the scene perfectly.

But now that you mention it, would a been really cool if Williams would have created dubstep for this movie. Or he could have just gone forward in time, listened to a bit...I'll bet he could have done that with an orchestra... maybe . I can hear those bassoons, wa-wa-wa wa-a-a-a

Geez, I can't think of any other way that he might have gone besides, jazzy, dubstep or 70s synth.





...seriously, you guys thought that music fit? you... liked it?


----------



## midi_controller (Jun 23, 2013)

You know, the problem with John Williams is... um... god damnit.

You had to pick the one composer that is almost impossible to criticize. The dude seems like one of the nicest, most laid back people I've ever seen. He writes really good music, and even when it's not earth shattering it's still very well done.

Of course someone is bound to say "Williams lifted such and such from so and so" and yes, he does that, just like every other artist on the face of the planet. Seriously, name one composer that never referenced another, I dare you.

If there is anything that I can say, it's that I wish he went dark more often, he is so damn good at it. It's like watching Robin Williams in One Hour Photo, after you've heard some of his more dark or somber material, the light and happy stuff just isn't cutting it for you anymore. But of course that is just my opinion! 

I don't understand why anyone would bash Zimmer though. Dude writes some wicked music as well, albeit very different from Williams. Maybe that is the thing, people see that the music they grew up with is evolving (as music tends to do) and they don't like or don't understand the new stuff so they just say it's crap, or that it's inferior, or whatever. At some point (usually correlated with age I've noticed), people tend to forget just because you don't like something, that doesn't mean that no one else should.

Now RAP on the other hand... :D


----------



## Vlzmusic (Jun 24, 2013)

If you want to bash anyone, better find those who ruined two great cues in the "enhancement" of "Return of the Jedi'. Dance in Jabba`s mansion, with super funky sync of the dancer begging, and Jabba answering her - all got lost!

And the new final celebration music? Makes me disgusted.

If its JW, bash the ones who forced him


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jun 24, 2013)

TGV @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> It also surprises me that they speak English throughout the universe, a few species excluded, and that there are so many species with two eyes, two feet two hands, in size somewhere between 1m and 2m, most frequently around 1m75, dressing in trousers or robes and with customs that remind of our culture.
> 
> Now, why did George Lucas not attempt to do something truly alien, like a cloud of gas or an intelligent but totally anarchistic shade of blue? Because his movie would have gone straight to video. You want to make a blockbuster? Better stick with what the audience likes. The music in the bar scene (which sounds more rag-time to me) is the favorite of quite a few people.



Very good....

Hits the nail on the head, really. The whole movie is about making the super-wow appear mundane and familiar, relate-able to the widest audience possible. You might expect a wild score from a Frank Herbert novel, but Star Wars that ain't.

Actually, since we're all bashing the unbashable, it is worth pointing out that JW has one musical blind spot imo - synths. Listen to even Empire and you hear this terrible synths popping up infrequently with the crassest sounds. So staying away from them 99.9% of the time was the smart thing to do imo.

EDIT - smart move to make the Mother Ship in CETK a tuba, not an ARP.


----------



## impressions (Jun 24, 2013)

I don't understand the purpose of people who speak out "against" other artists, its not like they're politicians. if you don't like it, just ignore it. there are threads of campaigns here of bashers "against" and what else..

also seemed very unpro, especially with this stature of those 2 composers who might have had 2-3 "bad works" which no one here can even write.


----------



## Kralc (Jun 24, 2013)

I challenge you to show me an EIS tune that my 6 year old cousin could bop and hum along to.

Or one that could be the 2nd most purchased Williams track on iTunes.

But I'll bash JW and say he makes me feel like a loser every time I listen to his music. :(


----------



## Consona (Jun 24, 2013)

That bar tune is awesome. :D It pops in my head out of nowhere pretty often and then I have to hum it all day long. :lol: 

I cannot criticize it's sound because I'm so used to it since my childhood.



Kralc @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> But I'll bash JW and say he makes me feel like a loser every time I listen to his music. :(


 :(


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 24, 2013)

Pointless thread as such. If we are critically evaluating his work which will highlight certain highs and lows, that may be a good thing for many of us to learn.

But just picking a random scene and then labeling the thread JW bashing or whatever makes little sense to me.

We do not need to bash anyone up (just because we randomly choose to) - a critical and musical evaluation from both a music point of view and a film making pov is something that will be nice - Its called film music! 


Sorry to be negative! 


Tanuj.


----------



## Walid F. (Jun 24, 2013)

vibrato @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Pointless thread as such. If we are critically evaluating his work which will highlight certain highs and lows, that may be a good thing for many of us to learn.
> 
> But just picking a random scene and then labeling the thread JW bashing or whatever makes little sense to me.
> 
> ...



+1


----------



## mverta (Jun 24, 2013)

There were two pieces, both solid. Style at Lucas' specific requests. I'm glad we weren't deprived of them.


_Mike


----------



## Kralc (Jun 24, 2013)

Consona @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Kralc @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > But I'll bash JW and say he makes me feel like a loser every time I listen to his music. :(
> ...


Granted that was just after listening to The Philospher's Stone. Friggin magical.


----------



## Walid F. (Jun 24, 2013)

Kralc @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Consona @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Kralc @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> ...



saw Lincoln last night. absolutely gorgeous score.


----------



## bluejay (Jun 24, 2013)

mverta @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> There were two pieces, both solid. Style at Lucas' specific requests. I'm glad we weren't deprived of them.
> _Mike



Exactly!!

Plus by writing something that was already a period piece it hasn't ended up sounding horribly dated like so much 'futuristic' synth music of the 70s.


----------



## windshore (Jun 24, 2013)

JW - should have written a dub step tune... agh, yeah, right. 

And how dated do you think dub step will be in 20 years, much less 100? There's no way to win an argument over what future "music" will sound like.

"Exercise in futility me think this is..."


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Jun 24, 2013)

Wait...you guys keep talking about Star Wars and the "future". Star Wars happened many years ago in the past.

So we now know (thru the magic of Hollywood films) that New Orleans Jazz was handed down from aliens. I always wondered where Louis Armstrong was really from 'cause he was "out of this world!"


----------



## Dean (Jun 24, 2013)

Why dont you start an rjames bashing thread instead,then after you've rectified all your mistakes and flaws as a composer and theres nothing left to improve on then start bashing other composers. :wink: 

D


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jun 24, 2013)

In his defense, I think Ron meant the title of the thread tile to be somewhat satirical.


----------



## reddognoyz (Jun 24, 2013)

Please check out my threads "Bashing Shakespeare" and "Gandhi Sucks" on the Sour Grapes forum.


----------



## Ed (Jun 24, 2013)

rJames @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Ed, you nailed it. That is exactly what I think John Williams would have come up with for aliens to be playing in a bar. I'm sure he would have gone to synthesizers and laser sounds.



Probably, also disco was popular at the time too. So I also imagine something like this. This must have sounded super modern at the time. Honestly though, Star Wars isnt exactly realistic, having the band play jazz doesnt stand out for me.


----------



## Dean (Jun 24, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> In his defense, I think Ron meant the title of the thread tile to be somewhat satirical.



I know but some people will take this seriously and we'll have yet another distasteful thread,its getting nuts here lately with the Zimmermania! D


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Jun 24, 2013)

Man I wish you guys where bashing me. Now that would be the ultimate compliment and a sure sign i was as successful as could be...


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Jun 24, 2013)

Doesn't anyone want to say something bad about Mobsters episode 211 on the Biography Channel?

I scored with Jazz music even tho the story morphed into 1960s and 70s! how disappointing is that!!


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 24, 2013)

I think Schwartz' Toy Store drew in more frothing children from that scene, replayed on a stage in the stores, everyday, every hour while their overpriced products flew from the shelves.
In case anyone hasn't ever seen their stores in New York, Orlando or Las Vegas, it's like saying we can't afford Disneyworld this year, we'll just go to Schwartz instead.
Here in the Forum Shops a giant 2 story Wooden replica of the Trojan Horse rolled in and out with soldiers climbing up and down the ropes.
The Alien band was obviously sequenced, but you never saw so many wide eyed children.
Plus Dixieland is some serious footapping stuff, just like Ranchero music, Polkas, etc.
Doesn't always have to be Orchestral music with those (yawn,yawn) predictable Crescendos and Tympani Rolls.


----------



## germancomponist (Jun 24, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Doesn't anyone want to say something bad about Mobsters episode 211 on the Biography Channel?
> 
> I scored with Jazz music even tho the story morphed into 1960s and 70s! how disappointing is that!!



You should be ashamed!    o=< o-[][]-o


----------



## Dean (Jun 24, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Man I wish you guys where bashing me. Now that would be the ultimate compliment and a sure sign i was as successful as could be...



You make a good point Jimbo,..(Oscar Wilde and all that),..but if some folks chilled out a little with the baiting and fanboy crap he might just relax and spend a little more time here. 

edit:check out my new thread 'Bashing Jimbo Ep 211' in 'Working In The Industry' section.D


----------



## gsilbers (Jun 24, 2013)

well, since we are in the topic.. 

anyone listen to the score for the paper chase by JW. !!?!?


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Jun 24, 2013)

Dean @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Jimbo 88 @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Man I wish you guys where bashing me.
> ...



Thank you, (bowing my head) Thank you, Thank you....

I am honored!


----------



## steb74 (Jun 24, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Actually, since we're all bashing the unbashable, it is worth pointing out that JW has one musical blind spot imo - synths. Listen to even Empire and you hear this terrible synths popping up infrequently with the crassest sounds. So staying away from them 99.9% of the time was the smart thing to do imo.


Wow, really?
I absolutely love the synths in Empire and how they relate to the force, some of the best parts of the score for me.

This futuristic music idea for the cantina scene though is so bad and cliche that it could eventually make it into a top 10 list of the worst suggestions on the internet ....ever! ....dear, oh dear ... :roll:


----------



## rJames (Jun 24, 2013)

steb74 @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> This futuristic music idea for the cantina scene though is so bad and cliche that it could eventually make it into a top 10 list of the worst suggestions on the internet ....ever! ....dear, oh dear ... :roll:



True, I doubt Williams could have come up with something that sounded cool if Lucas had asked him for something lively but as if it evolved on another planet. He's kind of old fashioned. I'm sure what he would have come up with would be cliche. His ideas are so predictable aren't they steb?

Its not like I'm saying that I would have liked to hear what John Williams could have come up with. Its more like I'm saying that I think he would have done it in a cliched fashion. 

Cause whenever Williams tries to give us something new, its so cliche.


----------



## mverta (Jun 24, 2013)

Well, when you're largely the guy who defined the cliche, I think you get a pass. John Williams is an adjective now, usually for sweeping, thematic, and memorable. And in swimming pools across the globe right now, people are humming the Jaws motif to screw with their friends. 

Time turns everything current into old-fashioned. The question is: does it retain its worth, if not its popularity. JW's music has already answered that in the affirmative, as his many permanent contributions to the lexicon prove; or his continually sold-out concerts. 

Bashing for its own sake is awfully 8th-grade-girl of you, my brother, but if you insist, stick to the appropriately catty - like his fashion sense, perhaps. Attacking him on musical grounds is, at best, a stretch, and petty.

_Mike


----------



## Kralc (Jun 24, 2013)

rJames, I found this for you 



10 glorious hours... :lol:


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Jun 24, 2013)

Kralc @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> I challenge you to show me an EIS tune that my 6 year old cousin could bop and hum along to.
> 
> Or one that could be the 2nd most purchased Williams track on iTunes.
> 
> But I'll bash JW and say he makes me feel like a loser every time I listen to his music. :(



Well actually the 3 Stooges "3 Blind Mice" theme was arranged by Spud Murphy and numerous TV animation today is scored by EIS graduates, that said the thread title is almost a look at me I'm bashing "Williams".


----------



## MikeH (Jun 24, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> Actually, since we're all bashing the unbashable, it is worth pointing out that JW has one musical blind spot imo - synths. Listen to even Empire and you hear this terrible synths popping up infrequently with the crassest sounds. So staying away from them 99.9% of the time was the smart thing to do imo.




He uses synths a lot more than we realize. In the conductor's scores/sketches there are almost always synth parts. For the most part they're used very subtly and for additional color effects layered against the live strings, choirs, percussion, etc. He often uses them so 'naturally' that you'd never know it wasn't an all-acoustic score unless you looked at the manuscripts. So I'd say he's pretty good at using them


----------



## rJames (Jun 24, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> steb74 @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > This futuristic music idea for the cantina scene though is so bad and cliche that it could eventually make it into a top 10 list of the worst suggestions on the internet ....ever! ....dear, oh dear ... :roll:
> ...



Sarcasm.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Jun 25, 2013)

MikeH @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, since we're all bashing the unbashable, it is worth pointing out that JW has one musical blind spot imo - synths. Listen to even Empire and you hear this terrible synths popping up infrequently with the crassest sounds. So staying away from them 99.9% of the time was the smart thing to do imo.
> ...



Well fair enough - if they're so subtle I don't hear them in the most part then I stand corrected, and I clearly only object to an odd minority that sound like an ARP Odyssey was plugged straight into the mixer. Would be interested in some 70's / 80's era links to some good use of Williams synths.

Should emphasise of course that this is almost entirely trivial....

EDIT - ironically, I'm rather fond of the bowowowow synth bass in the 2nd Cantina track... I'm talking about normal score use, of course.


----------



## TGV (Jun 25, 2013)

rJames @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> rJames @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Cause whenever Williams tries to give us something new, its so cliche.
> ...


You quote yourself, saying "sarcasm". What does that even mean in this context? Sarcasm is the use of irony (saying the opposite of what you mean) to mock or convey contempt. So you're saying that everything JW does is actually not cliche, and you ridicule him for this, while originally lamenting the use of outdated music in a scene in which the cliche would have been to use extra incomprehensible sounds (see what I did there)?


----------



## Scrianinoff (Jun 25, 2013)

What I really disliked is how they replaced "Lapti Nek" with "Jedi Rocks" in a failed attempt to bring the movie up to snuff with the late 90s. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lapti_Nek
Lapti Nek was apparently also composed by Williams, J. Williams, his son, Joseph Williams 

The Star Wars films are filled to the brim with references to our own culture. It's exactly this which makes our bells ring, and why so many people love and/or either respect the genre. 

When I first heard the opening tune, it reminded me strongly of Act 2 of die Walkure of Wagner, http://youtu.be/WkIKKAjwH1g?t=26s . It wouldn't surprise me if that was the temp track. By the way isn't the genre called 'space opera'?

Also the story elements borrow heavily from culture, history and science. Palpatine = Paladin. Midichlorians = mitochondria. Etc.

All of this, I think, is a good thing, which really worked very well for the whole genre.


----------



## rJames (Jun 25, 2013)

TGV @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> rJames @ Tue Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> > rJames @ Mon Jun 24 said:
> ...



I was ridiculing Steb74 who is implying that if JW would have been asked to score the scene as if the aliens were playing something form their own galaxy that JW couldn't have handled it well. I disagree vehemently.

The thread title was tongue in cheek. Hard to bash Williams... we shouldn't be bashing anyone at VI, sometimes we do.

But that scene is just corny. The movie is not corny. It is quite serious as an action movie even if intended as a knights in armor movie set in space.

This is source music coming from a band in a bar. I would have liked to hear what Williams could have written if untethered by Lucas (this is what you movie aficionados are telling me).

Nowhere else in the movie does Lucas use "out of place" sound sources or sound Fx.

It is a realistic story for the most part. That scene is corny. Just my opinion. Not really bashing.

Kralc, Even though I did not play the 10 minute version, I have had that tune going through my head every once in a while. But you didn't need to go into EIS bashing. Just the kind of response that I was making fun of when I wrote the title of the thread. I shouldn't have mentioned EIS as you took it as if I could have written this scene better. Uh-uh. EIS opened my eyes to new worlds but it didn't give me the ability to score movies better than John Williams.

And no Craig, the title of the thread was not to say "look at me," it was there to say, "look at yourself." (not you but everyone who likes to bash)


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jun 25, 2013)

rJames @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> 1. The thread title was tongue in cheek. Hard to bash Williams... we shouldn't be bashing anyone at VI, sometimes we do.
> 
> 2. This is source music coming from a band in a bar. I would have liked to hear what Williams could have written if untethered by Lucas (this is what you movie aficionados are telling me).
> 
> ...



1. Yes.

2. He may or may not have been. AFAIK he has never addressed that cue. It may be that was his take on it.

3.True of all training. As helpful as it is, alone it dos not make you a JW.

4. Kudos.


----------



## sherief83 (Jun 25, 2013)

rJames @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Collectively, we've done enough HZ bashing for a few lifetimes.
> 
> And I don't know how much stuff you can come up with in a thread with this title but one cue has ALWAYS bothered me.
> 
> ...



Come on Ron, that is one of the most quotable music from star-wars. So many jokes and comedic bets were based on how silly it is. Nope keep it, its history now and besides, John Williams isn't really known to take fantasy films seriously, he always likes them when they don't take them selves serious. But he didn't want to say that to George. His thought on the film at the time was a nice fun Sunday film for the kids. that's all he envisioned for it.


----------



## rJames (Jun 25, 2013)

OK, clicking my red tennis shoes together at the heels while I repeat, "suspension of disbelief, suspension of disbelief, suspension of disbelief."

Dang, I still wish that music was not in that scene.


----------



## TGV (Jun 25, 2013)

rJames @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> I was ridiculing Steb74 who is implying that if JW would have been asked to score the scene as if the aliens were playing something form their own galaxy that JW couldn't have handled it well. I disagree vehemently.


Three conditionals and a double negation, but I think I get it (smiley time).


> But that scene is just corny. The movie is not corny. It is quite serious as an action movie even if intended as a knights in armor movie set in space.


I respectfully disagree. I did like the first movie, because it was novel and well imagined, but it's also pretty cheesy. I think it's to a large extent the music that saves it.


----------



## rJames (Jun 25, 2013)

TGV @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> Three conditionals and a double negation, but I think I get it (smiley time).


Are you talking about musical notation? (sarcasm)

I respectfully disagree. I did like the first movie, because it was novel and well imagined, but it's also pretty cheesy. I think it's to a large extent the music that saves it.[/quote]

It was not cheesy at the time it was made. It is cheesy only when you look back on it through the lens of time.


----------



## snowleopard (Jun 28, 2013)

Three comments.

1) I am not interested at all in judging one of the greatest film composers in history on one track, let alone one film score. Recall Lucas wanted the movie to be scored by Holst's planets. I'm fine with the Jazz. Seems more timeless than having it be old disco. 

2. Not here, but elsewhere people criticize Williams for big orchestral sounding scores, when in reality the majority of his work over the last decade plus has been much more subdued. 

3. Out of period music can work in some films, and be annoying in others. It bugged the crap out of me that the trailer for the film 42 had rap/hip hop music in it. Especially when that era was very rich for the formation of classic pop/jazz/blues music in the US. Think back, Count Basie, Ella Fitzgerald., Dizzy, Thelonius, etc. 



Imagine instead of the rap song when it cuts in, Chuck Berry's Roll Over Beethoven. 

Some films in history may or may not have matched on screen, but were good music on their own. Anyone old enough to remember Andrew Powell's score to Ladyhawke? Many people hated it for being pop based music, but Alan Parsons fans really liked the soundtrack.


----------

