# Spotlight Strings Group Buy - Any interest?



## Ryan99 (Dec 26, 2013)

Hi,

There's a Group Buy that has just started for the release of Spotlight Strings. Here's an overview video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scd7BZiEyUQ

Since I'm not related in any way with the publisher, I'm posting this here. Here's the official announcement:

"This year Kirk Hunter Studios is introducing its most advanced string
sample library to date, Spotlight Strings, representing a breakthrough
in realism and playability for string sample libraries. Even better,
we're offering you the opportunity to purchase it as part of our year
end, 2013 Group Buy.

We're offering every major Kirk Hunter Studios sample library as part
of the Group Buy.

How it works:
Join the Group Buy by signing up HERE (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/signup_spotlight_group_buy.php (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/signup ... up_buy.php))

By signing up, you commit yourself to purchasing at least ONE of the
libraries listed there, and also listed at the bottom of this posting.

Instant Gratification
Once you sign up, you can purchase right then and there, or at the end of the Group
Buy. If you purchase now, you will be given a refund of the difference
between the price you paid and the Group Buy ending price. That way,
you can enjoy the library(s) now. You will have the option of purchasing on the signup page HERE (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/signup_spotlight_group_buy.php (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/signup ... up_buy.php))

Watch the Group Buy Discount Levels at the bottom of this posting.

Spread the Word to Others Who Use Sample Libraries and Save Even More!
The more people that join the Group Buy, the lower the price of the
libraries. So, it pays to tell others about the group buy in the
forums you use, in social media -- anywhere your fellow musicians who
use sample libraries visit 

Libraries Included in the Group Buy:

Spotlight Strings Reg Price - $299
Our most advanced and playable string library.

Concert Strings 2 Reg Price - $799
4 String Sections in 1 Library - Symphonic, Studio, Chamber and Solo.
For EXS24 too!

Concert Brass 2 Reg Price - $349
4 Brass Sections in 1 Library - Symphonic, Studio, Chamber and Solo.

Pop/Rock Strings Reg Price - $249
Built from parts of the popular Concert Strings 2 Library, and only
requires Kontakt's free player.

Diamond Symphony Orchestra Reg Price - $549
While being our entry-level strings, brass and woodwinds, this library
also includes several orchestral percussion instruments as well.

Solo Strings 1 Reg Price - $99
Although it's included in the Diamond library, by itself it has been a
best seller!

Number of GB Participants / Discount
1 - 49 15%
50-99 20%
100-149 25%
150-199 30%
200-249 35%
250-299 40%
300 or more 50%"


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## tcollins (Dec 26, 2013)

You couldn't ask for a better demo than the one for Spotlight Strings- the full library only without the sustain loops. I played with it for quite a while and didn't even notice any notes cutting off. 
KH strings libraries have always served me well, so I'll be picking it up.


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## Sid Francis (Dec 26, 2013)

There is a nice demo of the program to download and I am just downloading. Since the last KH group buy went so well I assume that this time too you can get a lot for little.
I´ll buy it anyway.

P.S: If you enter the group buy buy you CAN, not must, CAN buy it now and get a refund over the group buy savings at the end. This also worked for me last time, only 3 or 4 days delay. Very smooth everything...


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 26, 2013)

The Kirk Hunter libraries doesn't seem to be mentioned here very much. Would be very interesting to hear what past and current users think of the KH libraries. I'll certainly give the demo a spin.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 26, 2013)

I have beta tested this, andI think it is is really good and easy to work with for solo/soli strings.

JE, I have always used Kirk's stuff and said so and and I used to take a lot of crap for it here, but in the last two years we seem to have a lot of new members who either feel more as I do or at least are open minded about his libraries.


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## Udo (Dec 26, 2013)

Owners of KH Concert Strings 2 will have an additional amount taken off at the end of the Group Buy. :D


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## paulmatthew (Dec 26, 2013)

There is a Spotlight Strings demo available and it's 4GB . It should be able to give anyone a good idea of how it handles. It says it times out in 15 minutes and samples are not looped , but other that it looks like a full scale demo to see how it works.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

Sort of a smaller Dimension Strings? 

Damn, I hate things that make me go "hmmm."


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 27, 2013)

Interesting. I watched the video and thought the idea behind the library an the way things were set out and controllable was fantastic.

But... I really really didn't like the sound at all. Shame. The workflow looks great, but I'd never use it because it's not a tone I like one bit.


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## njO (Dec 27, 2013)

I totally agree with Matt here! 
Excellent and intuitive user interface, but a sound that does not speak to me at all. Hopefully some of the other libraries will.

Nils Johan


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## Jan16 (Dec 27, 2013)

Before rushing to buy the Spotlight Strings it would be wise to check out the system requirements for this library, which are quite demanding.
For instance, I checked the performance of my computer (i7 965 @3.2 GHz) at the site suggested by Kirk, http://whohasthefastestcomputer.com/flopsmeter, and I did not get beyond 1.37 gigaflops, below the advised 2.03 GF.


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## TSU (Dec 27, 2013)

Trying to get free trial version. Anybody has problems with "Install_Keys.zip" download? There is only XML file, not ZIP.
Also there is "Install_Keys" folder in the "Spotlight.zip" package.


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## Ryan99 (Dec 27, 2013)

JE Martinsen @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> The Kirk Hunter libraries doesn't seem to be mentioned here very much. Would be very interesting to hear what past and current users think of the KH libraries. I'll certainly give the demo a spin.



There was a past Group Buy with an insane rebate when I got his main libraries (Concert brass 2, Concert Strings 2 and Diamond orchestra). Since then, Kirk Hunter released some upgrades that really improved these products. For the price I paid, I'm very satisfied, especially for Concert Strings 2 with the Easy String Arranger (ESA) upgrade.

I might get Spotlight Strings if it gets 50% off.


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## techeverlasting (Dec 27, 2013)

I'll be interested to hear other Spotlight demos, but from what I've heard so far I just don't buy the vibrato. 

Embertone has done amazing things with synthesized vibrato in their solo violin and cello libraries. From what I can gather they use Kontakt's LFO to vary amplitude and frequency as well as pitch. The Spotlight demos I've heard so far sound like it's only LFO to pitch. As soon as the vibrato kicks in I'm hearing a synth lead.


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## TSU (Dec 27, 2013)

Regarding "Install_Keys.zip" - looks like this folder located within "Spotlight" package. Free trial registration was succesful for me without "Install_Keys.zip" from the download area.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

techeverlasting @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> I'll be interested to hear other Spotlight demos, but from what I've heard so far I just don't buy the vibrato.
> 
> Embertone has done amazing things with synthesized vibrato in their solo violin and cello libraries. From what I can gather they use Kontakt's LFO to vary amplitude and frequency as well as pitch. The Spotlight demos I've heard so far sound like it's only LFO to pitch. As soon as the vibrato kicks in I'm hearing a synth lead.



The vibrato is really customizable. personally, I like to control it with the mod wheel. It has settings for intensity, speed, and fade time.


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## re-peat (Dec 27, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> But... I really really didn't like the sound at all.


That's about the only sensible thing that can be said about this or any other KH library.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

re-peat @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Fri Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > But... I really really didn't like the sound at all.
> ...


 
As predictable as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west


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## re-peat (Dec 27, 2013)

True. But that's because KH is so predictably bad.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

To those of you with an open mind, don't take my word for it or anyone else's. Try the demo and make up your own mind.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 27, 2013)

I disagree with the "predictably bad" I have several KH things that I quite like. 

" Predictably, (and possibly unfairly) slammed" is, as Jay said, predictably expected 'round here.

"Predictably not at all to my taste" might be a more measured comment.


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## Sid Francis (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes, exactly my thoughts. 
I also use the libraries sparingly though. I thought too they are sounding bad. Until I heard a demo by Roberto ("Rob") showing also the sound of the different sizes of the KH Concert Strings 2 and then I knew that I only don´t know how to arrange. :? 8) 
It just opened my eyes. 
The only thing quite shure is, that the KH libs don´t sound too "Hollywood" in my ears, more like a conventional orchestra. And then it is the probably the wrong place here to discuss it since it just has too little amount of "epic" in it.. :lol:


and Udo: where from do you know? that would be great news since I own them too.


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## kawaivpc1 (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm very disappointed with older KH libraries... they're the most MIDI sounding libraries I've heard so far. 
Concert Brass 2 was an only exception. I find that library pretty useful. Beside that, many of older libraries lacks realism. 
I'd recommend KH guys to make more deeply sampled libraries with more realistic legato patches. 
Honestly, many of KH libraries sound like 90's string synth rather than libraries made in 2010.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 27, 2013)

These spotlight strings sound horrible to my ears on my monitoring system.
I really don't care what others think they hear and I doubt even Roberto can change my mind on "this" particular offering from the developer.


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## re-peat (Dec 27, 2013)

I grabbed the following audio from KH’s very own Spotlight cello demonstration (this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRxDk4WwsfA (YT video)).
The clip contains a few solo celli and a combined section at the end:

http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/KH_SpotlightCellos.mp3

Surely, anyone with normally functioning ears can hear immediately that these are very likely the worst sampled celli in existence.

All Mr. Hunter’s libraries suffer from the same problems: firstly, the man simply does not know how to record/sample instruments. I don’t know why he persists in doing in, because each and every one of his libraries ― from his first Virtuoso Strings right down to these Spotlight Strings ― is proof that he lacks the required talent and know-how to do it. And, secondly, he also seems to have an uncontrollable urge to ruin his already poor-sounding raw samples into even worse-sounding finished samples by using all sorts of inferior processing and awful-sounding trickery.

In case one still needs convincing (in which I case I really do feel for you), listen to this atrocity (an official demo): http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/demos/spotlight/all_in.mp3 (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/demos/ ... all_in.mp3)

Just to show how bad I think this is, here’s my proposition: since the demo version is apparently pretty functional, I offer to buy the full library ($299) for the first person who downloads the demo and manages to make _a really good-sounding and convincing piece for strings_ with it.
I myself will be on the judging panel of course, but to avoid any accusation of unfair bias, I happily welcome a few other members ― ones whose opinion on sound and samples I take seriously, that is (which limits the pool considerably, I'm afraid) ― to join me.
It might seem a bold offer, but it isn't, completely confident as I am that I won't have to part with any of that money.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

A few comments:
1. If you don't like it, you don't like it but nobody should be so arrogant about their opinion to say, "_ Surely, anyone with normally functioning ears can hear immediately that these are very likely the worst sampled celli in existence._ " OR _"ones whose opinion on sound and samples I take seriously, that is (which limits the pool considerably, I'm afraid) ― to join me.) "_

This is not an ad hominem attack, it is the poster's own words and I think they tell you all you need to know about him. Confidence should always be tempered with respect for others dissenting opinions. John Williams is more modest about his opinions than that and nobody here is as good as John Williams.

2. The reason he "persists in doing so" is because year after year, library after library, they continue to sell well and many well known composers use them. 

OK, folks, once agin, my advice is not to take _anybody's_ word for it. Download the demo and judge for yourself.


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## Ryan99 (Dec 27, 2013)

Before posting this thread, I heard that Kirk Hunter was not popular on this forum. I consider myself an amateur in composing music, but over the years I compared the sound of a lot of libraries and for my personal taste, Kirk Hunter is sounding good.

Of course, it doesn't have the Hollywood sound, that's why I also bought EastWest Hollywood Strings and Brass Gold.

I respect the differences of opinion, but I find some comments harsh. If you don't like it, that's fine, but please stay respectful for those that appreciate it.

Thanks.


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## RasmusFors (Dec 27, 2013)

I actually like the overall idea and interface. As for the sound and tone of the strings, it seems quite oddly recorded. I'm not saying it sounds bad (because to my functioning ears it sounds quite good), just a bit eccentric and different . This is nowhere close to beeing the worst string library ever recorded, in my humble world it sounds better than multiple solo strings libraries. 

I've heard better and more contsructive criticism from 5 year olds. Bashing helps no one!


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## damstraversaz (Dec 27, 2013)

> I've heard better and more contsructive criticism from 5 year olds. Bashing helps no one!



I'm totally agree. As there is a demo, people can do their own opinion about this library.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

I am proud of you guys for having the courage to form your own opinions and standing up for respecting dissenting opinions.


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## Cowtothesky (Dec 27, 2013)

The demo for Spotlight Strings is really good. Count me as one of the few (only?) that actually likes the sound of this. I really like the cellos and basses. The solo instruments sound great. The interface is laid out really well and looks easy to use. Someone mentioned earlier in the post about not liking the vibrato, but you can adjust the speed and I think the composer for the demo just had the vibrato speed too fast, in my opinion. Overall, I like it and I think I could use it in my template. At 50%, I'd pull the trigger.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

Re-peat's several years of making posts whenever there is a Kirk Hunter Studios library post are very strange. It's almost like the Bloody Mary folklore where you say her name in front of a mirror 3x and she appears, except in this case, you say Kirk's name 3x and re-peat's highly abrasive posts occur. In fact, one of my earliest memories of this forum was seeing re-peat's posts in a Kirk Hunter Studios related thread where 2 well known composers posted praise for Kirk's libraries and then were beaten to a pulp (I didn't know Kirk then or have any of his libraries, but knew of the brand from mentions at NorthernSounds). I recall re-peat making a very personal comment about Kirk's "soul" that was really disturbing and made me wonder about the mindset of such an individual. Clearly, there's something more personal to the man's venom that's not disclosed here -- much more than not liking a demo or libraries. Why else would a grown man continue to listen to demos for Kirk's libraries several years after writing his contempt for Kirk's abilities and libraries? It defies logic. 

I believe that we're all entitled to our own strong opinions, but how we express those opinions and the respect we show for each other is very important. It is possible to express a strong opinion and still be a decent, respectful part of a community. I think this fact is clearly missed by re-peat and I salute Jay Asher who has always been an example of fairness and someone who knows how to possess and express a strong opinion without becoming abrasive and disrespectful, even when those around him are behaving badly (and he works for EastWest while defending competitors!). There are plenty of libraries with demos that don't impress me, but none that have ever inspired several years of venomous posts. That's suspect imo. 

I would encourage anyone even moderately interested in this library -- or any others -- not to be overly influenced by one very aggressive poster (or even more than one), and instead use your own ears. Candidly, I'm not in love with those audio demos. But download and try out the Spotlight Strings library yourself and you'll have a very good idea what this library is capable of and what your ears think of it. I can think of several extremely talented and successful composers I know of that use Kirk's libraries -- but apparently re-peat is more talented and has better ears than all of them. As per re-peat's very authoritative seeming, but ultimately merely self-important opinion.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 27, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> I am proud of you guys for having the courage to form your own opinions and standing up for respecting dissenting opinions.


Jay,
Why do you have to interject using words such as courage.
What has courage to do with anything. I'm quite willing to accept others not being of the same opinion on the library. It's not life or death and certainly not worth you stirring the proverbial.


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## paulmatthew (Dec 27, 2013)

+ 1 I like the sound and the customization of the interface too. The ripieno feature is interesting . Each instrument sounds different and can make for unique layering , say player 1 and 4 instead of player 1 and 2 in duet mode. 

The vibrato manipulation is excellent , also don't forget to adjust velocity sensitivity and modwheel sensitivity for a smoother sound. Another good feature is panning for each individual instrument right in the interface. I'm not sure what the Gigaflop thing is about for system requirements , but mine tested out at 1.02 (sloth speed) and was working fine without pops or skips and I was running all 4 instruments in ripieno mode. At least try it first because you can always delete it later if you don't like it.


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## synthnut (Dec 27, 2013)

Kirk Hunter has always taken a beating on this forum ....Some of his samples work very well , and the interface is great ....The violins in Spotlight actually sound really good !..... As with any library, a little bit of work , just about anything can sound very usable ... If I had a dollar for every library that I liked ENTIRELY, I would have about enough for a cup of coffee.... In fact most libraries , I have at least 25% of the library that I don't like .... These include libraries from various developers.....The fact that Kirk is bringing back the old "Group Buy" scenario , and that he leaves plenty of time for purchases give's everyone plenty of time to make a decision , and also plenty of time to raise needed funds , all while dropping the price as more people purchase the product ....Kudo's for good business sense !!!..... Jim


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I am proud of you guys for having the courage to form your own opinions and standing up for respecting dissenting opinions.
> ...



Because saying you don't like something that is one thing, but when you try to intimidate others into also not liking it by saying that if they do they have no ears, that is IMHO simply bullying and for some people, one of whom POM'ed me, that takes courage to stand up to.


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## Arbee (Dec 27, 2013)

I listened to the demos and must confess my ears are telling me very much the same as re-peat's. Not bashing, just saying....


.


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## midi_controller (Dec 27, 2013)

I wouldn't be surprised if re-peat feels he got burned on a couple Kirk Hunter purchases, hence the vitrol. I'm sure we can all empathize with that. I know there was massive issues with some of Hunter's older products at release, but I haven't really kept up with any of his newer stuff besides glancing at the demos. 

I'll admit, I've never been impressed with the sound of his libraries before, and it looks like this one will be no different. To my ears, it just sounds kind of stale, a bit robotic, especially when those short notes come in during the video. Also not a fan of the engineering either, but that is fairly subjective. Oh well, I'm still open to one day grabbing a Kirk Hunter library, but this one isn't for me it seems.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

midi_controller @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if re-peat feels he got burned on a couple Kirk Hunter purchases, hence the vitrol. I'm sure we can all empathize with that./quote]
> 
> No, not ALL. I most certainly _do not_ empathize. There is no library purchase I have _ever_ made or could _ever_ make that could disappoint me to a degree that I would feel it allows me to think that kind of vitriol publicly expressed was acceptable.
> 
> It is simply not in my code of acceptable conduct.


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## Aquatone (Dec 27, 2013)

First, a HUGE amount of praise to Kirk Hunter for working out a way to demo his new product. I, sincerely, respect his confidence in his product. Perhaps this will inspire other developers to come up with similar "demos".

Kirk Hunter obviously put a lot of time into Spotlight Strings. The script is quite "involved". I do find it curious that he chose to go with a modded Cascade Fathead mic for all the sample recording. I have many mics. From an original '53 U47 to a Fathead with Cinemag transformers. I would make a different choice, than a Fathead, on stringed instruments. Especially, on a cello. The combination of a U47 and great cello/cellist is a beautiful thing. Anyway, I'm sure he had his reasons.

One interesting thing about these new libraries using a, for lack of a better word, a "Dimension Strings approach" is the dealing with frequency buildup from layering mics. I think VSL has done a great job at this. I am also impressed with the way Embertone (which I own) is having success in a similar vein with their "Ensemble" setting. The sample recording is paramount.

As far as the original topic "Spotlight Strings Group Buy - Any interest?", it is a good opportunity if you have downloaded the demo and like what you hear. I have no interest in participating but I really, again, thank Kirk Hunter for letting me demo the product so I could arrive at that decision. Very fair and brave.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

Actually, I think Chris Stone is probably the first guy who tried that approach with his ill-fated DVZ Strings library.


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## quantum7 (Dec 27, 2013)

I used KH's solo strings for years before I replaced them with Spitfire's solo strings. I like KH a lot and he has always been very professional and kind to me in conversations over the years. That said, I tried the Spotlight, but something about it didn't sound quite right to my ears. I may try it again in a composition I will be working on next week and am hoping I change my mind on it.


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 27, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Actually, I think Chris Stone is probably the first guy who tried that approach with his ill-fated DVZ Strings library.



That's my memory, too.


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## Sid Francis (Dec 27, 2013)

I have to agree that the demos, re-peat posted sound quite wierd. But I found the sound of the violins in the video quite nice especially when I imagine how iI might mix them into my violin template group. I will just try this without prejudice.

I found out in the past that sometimes mixing an instrument with others can add a nice flavour even if the instrument itself sounds not good enough for solo purposes. That also might happen with these strings.

Example? I own LASS Sordinos and they were my first great expensive dissapointment in libraries. The out-of-tune sound made me really angry and I was nearly desperate about the amount of money I "lost". And now? Now they are ALWAYS in my template to mix in some human randomness and they do it very well.


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## midi_controller (Dec 27, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> No, not ALL. I most certainly _do not_ empathize. There is no library purchase I have _ever_ made or could _ever_ make that could disappoint me to a degree that I would feel it allows me to think that kind of vitriol publicly expressed was acceptable.
> 
> It is simply not in my code of acceptable conduct.



I agree that he went a bit too far, I'm just trying to see his side of it as well. I can empathize, but that doesn't mean I condone what he said or how he said it. Everything that re-peat said could have been put in kinder words and still retained it's meaning.

Then again, maybe Kirk Hunter ran over re-peat's dog or something, we may never know. :D


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## Aquatone (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes, Audio Impressions introduced DVZ years ago. Sorry to learn of it's ill fate. But using the term "DVZ strings approach" wouldn't resonate as well. Furthermore, Dimension Strings was mentioned in this thread so, it was relevant for descriptive purpose. I could/should have used the phrase "solo instrument stacking approach" to be more generic.


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## re-peat (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> (...) Clearly, there's something more personal to the man's venom that's not disclosed here(...)


There is, hand-on-heart, nothing undisclosed or personal playing here. Well, no, I need to correct that: there *is* one little personal thing playing here, and that is the fact that I find KH’s efforts so offensively bad that I consider them a personal insult to any serious musician (performer, composer, orchestrator, library developer, …), a demographic which I consider myself, arrogantly as ever of course, to be a part of. 
Yes, elitist intolerance of unsympathetic magnitude on my part, I know, but someone has to muster it, I strongly feel. The world is beige, bland and mediocre enough as it is already.

Other than that: I don’t know Mr. Hunter, never seen him, met him or talked to him. He’s undoubtedly a nice guy ― so am I ― and I wish him nothing but the best with whatever he undertakes. (Provided he keeps the fruits of his recording sessions in the privacy of his studio or home.)

But when, today, I hear this new KH product [EDITED by Hannes_F], I can only say that it sounds as poorly-done and as awful as all his previous releases to my ears. I really-truly-honestly-seriously can not understand how any discerning, self-respecting musician, contemplating and/or hoping to acquire serious tools for convincing stringssimulation, could ever say: “Hey, this sounds pretty good, doesn’t it?” (Those celli which I posted earlier, that to me is the closest thing to the absolute nadir of sampling I have ever heard. I really don’t think it is humanely possible to sample a cello much worse than that.)

Anyway. To each his own, I suppose.

On a somewhat more serious and worrying note however: these Spotlight Strings, and some of the responses in this thread, also make me feel deeply-deeply-deeply sorry for all the other developers out there who invest time, effort, expertise, genuine craftsmanship, resources and money in the production of stringlibraries: I can almost smell their desillusionment and demotivation when they can read here that there are actually quite a number of people to be found saying that they are pretty happy with how these Spotlight Strings sound.
Surely, those other developers must begin thinking: “What’s the bloody point of all our work and our constant strive for quality improvement? Why are we even bothering with trying to capture a great sound and sparing no effort producing our libraries to the highest possible standards, when plenty of people will actually settle quite happilly for totally inferior pseudo-products such as KH’s?”

In other words (and without wanting to over-dramatize the situation): ultimately, I believe that this abysmal level of sampling and these through-and-through amateuristic libraries are potentially very dangerous and bad for all of us. Even for ― well, _especially_ for ― those who wisely stay away from them. Because the sub-standard level of KH’s releases might slowly start to trigger the idea in other developers’ minds that “most people don’t recognize quality sound anyway, so why bother trying to capture it? Why invest in the best possible quality, if only a very select few will hear and appreciate it?”
In short: the more people applauding this KH release, the blacker and bleaker I fear orchestral sampling’s future might be.

And that, dearest aliens (‘alien’ as in: species I seem to have little or no musical affinity with), is the reason why I’ve always been and always will be vehemently and passionately against any library which I consider well below standard. Not just KH’s. But it so happens that Mr. Hunter seems unable to produce anything but libraries which are far below what I consider the minimum standard.
(Even the established quality libraries are already flawed and “close-but-not-quite” enough that I really don’t wanna see any drop of quality level there in the future. Excuse me for caring.)

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

Aquatone @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Yes, Audio Impressions introduced DVZ years ago. Sorry to learn of it's ill fate. But using the term "DVZ strings approach" wouldn't resonate as well. Furthermore, Dimension Strings was mentioned in this thread so, it was relevant for descriptive purpose. I could/should have used the phrase "solo instrument stacking approach" to be more generic.



But DVZ Strings DID allow you to add/subtract chairs by simply clicking on the icons, which is why I mentioned it.


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## muk (Dec 27, 2013)

It's a shame that the occasional visitor might be put off from the library by repeat's post. The frequent user already knows about repeat's 'idiosyncrasies', I'm sure. Apart from that, if I'm not mistaken Spitfire Sable is the only strings library he seems to deem acceptable. So it might be nothing personal against KH after all.

In my opinion KH Spotlight Strings seem to be very progressive in it's approach and all the parameter it lets you control. However, personally I don't like the tone of it. Just a matter of taste.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

Let me go on record here. I just "reported" that last post where he refers to Kirk Hunter’s new library as "his new KH [edited by Hannes_F].”

And I would do so in defense of every single developer and composer here, without exception. NO ONE deserves that kind of level of disrespect, not even Piet, who I would also defend if his music were described that way, regardless of what I think of it.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 27, 2013)

I definitely like it if people can express negative and honest criticism here. With all that - sometimes unreal - cheering going on here, you get motivated to buy a library, and after that you discover all the faults that it has, which nobody told a word about before.

What's wrong about honestly pointing out the shortcomings of a library? I actually appreciate that much more than irrational cheering.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

Piet-

I can't comment comprehensively because I quickly and distractedly listened to the YouTube walk-through on my iPad's crappy speakers. I did think the closing moments of the video were unfortunate, as they featured some nasal sounding cellos, so we agree there...however there were some interesting moments that I thought might have some possibilities.

That said, full Sable is, what, $1400? You are comparing the wonderful and extremely detailed work of Spitfire to a product that, should it hit its group buy bottom, will go for $150. Sable, full LASS, VSL, etc are in a different league at a different price point, far less accessible for hobbyists and less busy professionals. I seem to remember that GPO, excoriated though it was by some high enders, sold a gazillion units and was widely used and appreciated by many. I have no doubt this product will find its market as well.

As to your broader worries, the philosophical bemoaning of the discouragement that must be felt by high end developers, please. Don't cry for them, Argentina. I just don't see the Spitfires, VSLs, Audiobros, EWs, Berlins et al sitting in front of their televisions in ratty bathrobes, unshaven, generic beer in hand, mumbling to themselves about this release. They will find a way to go on. They must.

Cheers.


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## muk (Dec 27, 2013)

re-peat @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> He’s undoubtedly a nice guy ― so am I ―



Well, your forum persona here isn't. You certainly know that some of us here - while respecting your opinion - take offence by the way you care to express it. And I'm pretty sure you don't care about that. Nevertheless I ask you yet again to please state your opinion without being insulting. A gentleman and nice person can get his message across without excessive bashing.

And to act yourselve up as the paladin of true sampling is presumptuous and unfair to other developers. Surely none of them think about releasing libraries they do not deem of highest quality just because some here like KH demos. You know, some developers have a vision of what they would like to use and give us just that.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

Wow, re-peat. You're certainly allowed to loathe someone's work, but why several years and clearly hours spent by you checking out Kirk's demos and scraping an MP3 out of his YouTube videos and editing and posting them here along with long-winded rants? 

So, we have well respected musicians like Bruce Miller, Jeff Beal, Alan Silvestri, David Newman, Jeff Bova and Kerry Livgren who are long time users of Kirk's libraries, Tracy Collins of Indiginus, a well respected developer, who on page one of this thread, states he's a KHS user who plans on picking up Spotlight Strings, yet according to you, no one with a decent set of ears could possibly find KHS libraries anything less than horrible. Clearly that means that you believe you have superior ears to these composer/musicians? 

Sorry, I don't know your work, don't know who you are beyond your first name, Piet. I completely agree with your right to not like a library or even the work of a developer, but not to spend several years and making venomous posts as part of an obsessive mission focused on this developer; that's excessive, over the line, to say the least imho. You possess an incredibly overblown sense of self-importance and a constant habit of demeaning others' opinions -- even when their credentials exceed your own. When I see your posts, I see a person with many issues, a lot of strong opinions, an ego that is out of control and venom against a developer. And, ftr, your opinions are a lot less important than you think they are. Move along.

[eDrummist Note: I edited out a light remark made in the first paragraph intended to convey my shock at Piet's behavior, and also to show I still have a sense of humor, but subsequently found out that remark was the subject of misinterpretation, so I removed it from the first paragraph.]


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## AC986 (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> I admit, I only took one course that covered abnormal psychology in college, but it seems to me there's an excellent case study material here for OCD and much.



What you mean a whole conference? :lol: 

I don't think there's anything abnormal about that at all. I don't know much about sample libraries but I remember a well respected musician friend of mine getting me over to his studio and playing about with his new KH strings library. I wanted to die. But he liked them and that's all that counts in the end.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Wow, re-peat. You're certainly allowed to loathe someone's work, but why several years and clearly hours spent by you checking out Kirk's demos and scraping an MP3 out of his YouTube videos and editing and posting them here along with long-winded rants? I admit, I only took one course that covered abnormal psychology in college, but it seems to me there's an excellent case study material here for OCD and much more.
> 
> So, we have well respected musicians like Bruce Miller, Jeff Beal, Alan Silvestri, David Newman, Jeff Bova and Kerry Livgren who are long time users of Kirk's libraries, Tracy Collins of Indiginus, a well respected developer, who on page one of this thread, states he's a KHS user who plans on picking up Spotlight Strings, yet according to you, no one with a decent set of ears could possibly find KHS libraries anything less than horrible. Clearly that means that you believe you have superior ears to these composer/musicians?
> 
> Sorry, I don't know your work, don't know who you are beyond your first name, Piet. I completely agree with your right to not like a library or even the work of a developer, but not to spend several years and making venomous posts as part of an obsessive compulsive mission focused on this developer; that's excessive, over the line, to say the least imho. You possess an incredibly overblown sense of self-importance and a constant habit of demeaning others' opinions -- even when their credentials exceed your own. When I see your posts, I see a person with many issues, a lot of strong opinions, an ego that is out of control and venom against a developer. And, ftr, your opinions are a lot less important than you think they are. Move along.



Replying to what you see as a rude post by using an ad hominem attack is illogical.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

NYC Composer


> "Replying to what you see as a rude post by using an ad hominem attack is illogical.


"

First, that post looks a lot like Mr. Spock wrote it.  But if you see my post as an ad hominem attack, I beg to differ with your definition of ad hominem (perhaps you chose the wrong phrase?). I made a defense to an attack because I believe such aggressive, bullying efforts must not go unchallenged. For several years Piet/re-peat has gone through a lot of effort to make these kinds of attacks whenever Kirk Hunter is mentioned at this forum -- I've had PMs with other Vi Control members and more than one person has stated they're afraid to mention Kirk Hunter libraries here as someone will de-rail their thread and turn it very ugly. Stating things that insult other users who merely post they like a KHS library have no ears, discernment or musical skills or referring to Kirk's work as excrement or him as having no soul (a past post) is over the line and should be addressed imo.


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## quantum7 (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> I think I now understand who repeat is.
> 
> "Hello my name is re-peat. Kirk Hunter, you killed my father, prepare to die!"




LOL :lol: Very strange why someone would seem to hate Mr. Hunter so much. I personally wasn't overly impressed by Spotlight, but may just buy it anyway in protest against Re-peat's total disregard for KH's efforts in trying to create a living for himself by doing the best job he can in producing budget-priced libraries.....which are very acceptable for the price he sells them for IMO. :roll:


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

quantum7 @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I think I now understand who repeat is.
> ...



I revised my post because I thought my sense of humor wouldn't be appreciated. Thank you, quantum7. My wife has made me watch Princess Bride probably 30x since we met (I get her back with Spinal Tap, which we've probably only watched 15x), so quotes from that movie come to mind a lot.


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## AC986 (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> NYC Composer
> 
> 
> > "Replying to what you see as a rude post by using an ad hominem attack is illogical.
> ...



Oh Goodness. Those poor souls.

You're not that well respected musician are you? Oh no! >8o


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## Ryan99 (Dec 27, 2013)

Let's just hope the moderators will do their jobs...


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## bbunker (Dec 27, 2013)

Well...no. If Edrummist was saying that the library is indeed amazing, and that he could prove it by pointing out flaws in the character of Piet, who says that the library isn't amazing, then that would be an argument ad hominem, right?

Irony alert: Piet argues that the library is bad, and that anyone who disagrees must not have good ears. Which is actually arguing ad hominem, since he's arguing based on the character of his opponents.

Sorry for the fallacy definition interruption.


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## bbunker (Dec 27, 2013)

So...back to the topic at hand.

This library's demos have me at odds, just like most of the KH demos have done in the past. I find that a lot of passages sound quite good, and there's some more that sound pretty decent, and then sometimes (and sometimes for quite a while) there's a passage that sounds almost distractingly synthetic. And then without warning it sounds great again!

I'd love to hear some demos from early adopters. A lot of times the composers on the front lines do the best job of cutting wheat from chaff, and that'll be the true test anyway...


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

bbunker @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> So...back to the topic at hand.
> 
> This library's demos have me at odds, just like most of the KH demos have done in the past. I find that a lot of passages sound quite good, and there's some more that sound pretty decent, and then sometimes (and sometimes for quite a while) there's a passage that sounds almost distractingly synthetic. And then without warning it sounds great again!
> 
> I'd love to hear some demos from early adopters. A lot of times the composers on the front lines do the best job of cutting wheat from chaff, and that'll be the true test anyway...



Frankly, I'm not in love with the Spotlight String demos. If you're interested in the library, I think there's nothing better you can do than download the free library demo (it's 4 GB, so not much is held back; http://kirkhunterstudios.com/signup_sss_free_trial.php ) and try it out for yourself. Find out first hand if the samples, scripting, user interface and workflow are to your liking. No audio or video demo will ever give you even a third of the insights you will gain from using a sample library on your own machine in your own studio. In the end, the opinion that matters most is yours.


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## chibear (Dec 27, 2013)

Ha, my first post and into controversy lol.

Tried it, liked it, bought it. With the 15 min time segments allowed in the demo I did this: http://soundcloud.com/clyde-lindman/ano ... irk-hunter 

Now I own the library I'll clean the example up.

*EDIT:* The above was raw, right out of the box. This is the same tune all balanced and cleaned up: http://soundcloud.com/clyde-lindman/another-waltz-final

For my own information, please name libraries that will equal this in the areas of vibrato, particularly the sound quality at the point vibrato begins and ends, implementation of portamento and slurs, and the general smoothness of change between articulations without timbre change.

cause I like to buy libraries :mrgreen:


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

Welcome to the infidel group, chibear.


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## chibear (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks, my mother used to call me that. I feel right at home now. 8)


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Wow, re-peat. You're certainly allowed to loathe someone's work, but why several years and clearly hours spent by you checking out Kirk's demos and scraping an MP3 out of his YouTube videos and editing and posting them here along with long-winded rants? I admit, I only took one course that covered abnormal psychology in college, but it seems to me there's an excellent case study material here for OCD and much more.
> 
> So, we have well respected musicians like Bruce Miller, Jeff Beal, Alan Silvestri, David Newman, Jeff Bova and Kerry Livgren who are long time users of Kirk's libraries, Tracy Collins of Indiginus, a well respected developer, who on page one of this thread, states he's a KHS user who plans on picking up Spotlight Strings, yet according to you, no one with a decent set of ears could possibly find KHS libraries anything less than horrible. Clearly that means that you believe you have superior ears to these composer/musicians?
> 
> Sorry, I don't know your work, don't know who you are beyond your first name, Piet. I completely agree with your right to not like a library or even the work of a developer, but not to spend several years and making venomous posts as part of an obsessive compulsive mission focused on this developer; that's excessive, over the line, to say the least imho. You possess an incredibly overblown sense of self-importance and a constant habit of demeaning others' opinions -- even when their credentials exceed your own. When I see your posts, I see a person with many issues, a lot of strong opinions, an ego that is out of control and venom against a developer. And, ftr, your opinions are a lot less important than you think they are. Move along.



You suggested the poster has OCD-a psychological abnormality. You suggested he has borderline personality disorder, another psychological abnormality involving, among other things, grandiosity and an inflated sense of self importance. You said he has "issues"- that would equal an unsupported and undetermined attack on him personally.

I would suggest you look up the meaning of "ad hominem"  i also suggest you limit your response to situations like this to the generalized "your rudeness was totally unnecessary"- which would have been accurate and less personalized.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> You suggested the poster has OCD-a psychological abnormality. You suggested he has borderline personality disorder, another psychological abnormality involving, among other things, grandiosity and an inflated sense of self importance. You said he has "issues"- that would equal an unsupported and undetermined attack on him personally.
> 
> I would suggest you look up the meaning of "ad hominem"  i also suggest you limit your response to situations like this to the generalized "your rudeness was totally unnecessary"- which would have been accurate and less personalized.



"I do not think that word means what you think it means." For your edification: 

ad ho·mi·nem
ˈad ˈhämənəm/
adverb & adjective

1. (of an argument or reaction) arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic.
attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain.
adverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem
"vicious ad hominem attacks"
2. relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

You also made statements that I did not, ftr. I stated remarks re-peat has made, his historical patterns of personal attacks on Hunter and observations of his statements. I did not make a diagnosis of the man, as you asserted (my remark about only haven taken one psychology class in college was just a joke to the effect of I have no qualifications to deal with this kind of thing) and I, by no means, made an argument appealing to emotions and not reason or logic -- my whole process was to follow re-peats statements with my observations of them using logic. Anyhow, it's no big deal.


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## Ryan99 (Dec 27, 2013)

In the spirit of Christmas, like everywhere else around the world, I suggest a truce, until the end of this thread....

My God, I created a monster!


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## quantum7 (Dec 27, 2013)

Ryan99 @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> In the spirit of Christmas, like everywhere else around the world, I suggest a truce, until the end of this thread....
> 
> My God, I created a monster!



Well said....although YOU didn't create the monster.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

Ryan99 @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> In the spirit of Christmas, like everywhere else around the world, I suggest a truce, until the end of this thread....
> 
> My God, I created a monster!



Christmas? I assumed this was a Festivus thread and the airing of grievances had begun... 

Okay, seriously, to get things back on topic...How many people here have downloaded and played with the Spotlight Strings library demo or the full library and what are your thoughts?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > You suggested the poster has OCD-a psychological abnormality. You suggested he has borderline personality disorder, another psychological abnormality involving, among other things, grandiosity and an inflated sense of self importance. You said he has "issues"- that would equal an unsupported and undetermined attack on him personally.
> ...



So your argument is that suggesting Piet has a mental illness does not attack his "character". Hmmm.

I guess it's just your professional psychological assessment then, with all that erudition you've gained in that field.  

Look -my argument is simple. If you don't enjoy or respect hyperbole from others, don't employ it yourself.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

Here we go again. Hyperbole:
"Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally."

NYC Composer, I did not make use of hyperbole. I know how to write and know what hyperbole is and I did not employ it. I've sprinkled in some humor, but not hyperbole. I understand your argument is that my response to re-peat is equivalent to several years of re-peat's vicious attacks on Mr Hunter personally (in the past making remarks about Mr Hunter's "soul") and that his thousand words worth of attacks on Mr Hunter and anyone who finds KHS libraries satisfactory as having no musical ears are equivalent. I got it. You've made your point. Let's move on to the topic of the thread. And yes, I seriously do think anyone who is not even a customer and spends several years making attacks in every thread that mentions Kirk Hunter on VI Control and spends hours to attempt to support his attacks has a problem that appears in my lay person opinion that the man has what I understand as OCD to behave in the manner he does.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Here we go again. Hyperbole:
> "Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally."
> 
> NYC Composer, I did not make use of hyperbole. My writing has been recommended by Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Northwestern, licensed by others. I know how to write and know what hyperbole is and I did not employ it. I've sprinkled in some humor, but not hyperbole. I understand your argument is that my response to re-peat is equivalent to several years of re-peat's vicious attacks on Mr Hunter personally (in the past making remarks about Mr Hunter's "soul") and that his thousand words worth of attacks on Mr Hunter and anyone who finds KHS libraries satisfactory as having no musical ears are equivalent. I got it. You've made your point. Let's move on to the topic of the thread.



Excellent cherry picking. You DO have a gift for avoidance-I'm sure the fine institutions whose name you invoked would be proud that you ignored each balanced and salient point I made as to the unnecessary and ineffective vehemence of your response to Piet- however, I'm sure he enjoyed your response to him much more than I did, as it fit into the same category of overly passionate, attack- based rhetoric. The man was rude, and has always been rude, so you diagnosed him as mentally ill! Please don't make me cut and paste- it's irrefutable from your very clear statements! The only conclusions to draw from that are:

1. You mounted an ad hominem attack, or
2. You were speaking hyperbolically, or-
3. You were annoyed at the rudeness, so you spoke rudely in defense, which could include #1, #2, or both.


That said, I will bow to the weight of your validated erudition- you win! On we go.


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## Ryan99 (Dec 27, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Here we go again. Hyperbole:
> ...



Good! Now take the bow to try to play Spotlight Strings and see how it works


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

Okay then, let it be known that The Airing of Grievances portion of the Festivus celebration has concluded and we are now back on the topic of Kirk Hunter Spotlight Strings and sample libraries.


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## quantum7 (Dec 27, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Okay then, let it be known that The Airing of Grievances portion of the Festivus celebration has concluded and we are now back on the topic of Kirk Hunter Spotlight Strings and sample libraries.



You have to admit though, that the Airing of Grievances is the most entertaining part of a happy & healthy Festivus. :lol:


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

The Airing of Grievances are only entertaining when you are not part of the grievances. Comparing me to Piet was hurtful. But (seriously), NYC Composer and I exchanged much friendlier PMs and I think we're okay now as long as the topic doesn't change to NY vs Chicago pizza. (I'm a Chicagoan.) 

And for those who don't know, I'm a long time Kirk Hunter Studios customer that also gives Kirk advice related to product development, naming and promotion (I've advised a number of sample library and VST developers whose libraries/VST I use). Several years of witnessing the same people here make attacks on anyone who says something positive about Kirk's libraries and the same person, Piet, making even personal attacks on Kirk is nothing less than sabotaging a developer and I find it harms the openness and value of this community, keeping it from reaching its potential as a community. My hope is that people can respect others views and present positive or negative opinions without insulting people who see things differently. 

Now let's get back to on topic. What are people's thoughts on the library? I think even people who don't love the audio demos should download the library demo. I really don't think the audio demos do it justice. The library demo is free and consider that this library could go as low as $149.50 USD in the Group Buy. FTR, I was responsible for working with Kirk to try something different and price this library at $299 (it was planned to be priced much higher, it was lowered with the intent of selling a higher quantity of libraries at a lower price). In the past, I was responsible for the concept and pricing of Pop/Rock Strings.


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## Sid Francis (Dec 27, 2013)

From now on your name shall be "FrankenRyan" :D


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## Hanu_H (Dec 28, 2013)

First I answer the topic...No. After hearing those demos, I have no interest in this library.

I have to agree with Piet. This library sounds absolutely horrible in the demos. There's not a second in the demos that sounds "real" or has any feeling. I think that some of the old libraries, like EWQLSO or VSL SE, sound much better than this and I would not use this in any serious composition. Only thing that sounds good is the portamento but after it crossfades to a sustain, it starts to sound really synthetic and remind me of all the midi sounds I have in my DAW. Of course Piet could have said it a bit gentler but it doesn't change the issues. We are not here to kiss developers *ss, they are here to do that, so they get more customers. Of course everyone should respect your fellow man(or woman) and not go into a personal attacks, but we are here to talk about libraries and were are passionate musicians so sometimes it gets a bit over the top.



chibear @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Tried it, liked it, bought it. With the 15 min time segments allowed in the demo I did this: http://soundcloud.com/clyde-lindman/ano ... irk-hunter


I think you should take this link down. It's really not doing anything good for Kirk Hunter. It sounds synthetic and I think it sounds like your DAW's midi sounds...

-Hannes


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 28, 2013)

Solo strings are some of the hardest to get right, sample-wise. I think its fair to say that based on the mp3s posted here (both official and otherwise), this doesn't break the mould, and there are far more convincing alternatives out there that are reasonably priced (LASS FC still holds up extremely well). But not every note I heard sounded like the most grotesque aural abomination either - some sections seemed ok before it went wrong again, and not every tone was ghastly (though a few were grim). While I don't think its worth me trying the full demo (and kudos to KH for providing that), some of the hyperbole is pretty ridiculous - c'est la VI-C.


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## AC986 (Dec 28, 2013)

eDrummist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> I've sprinkled in some humor, but not hyperbole.



I missed that. That's Princeton for you.


What you might want to understand about Piet is that he takes this stuff seriously. Wouldn't want it any other way.

And stop trying to control this thread. You don't need to point out humour v hyperbole. It's either there or it's not.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

Hanu_H @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> First I answer the topic...No. After hearing those demos, I have no interest in this library.
> I have to agree with Piet. This library sounds absolutely horrible in the demos. There's not a second in the demos that sounds "real" or has any feeling. I think that some of the old libraries, like EWQLSO or VSL SE, sound much better than this and I would not use this in any serious composition. Only thing that sounds good is the portamento but after it crossfades to a sustain, it starts to sound really synthetic and remind me of all the midi sounds I have in my DAW. Of course Piet could have said it a bit gentler but it doesn't change the issues. We are not here to kiss developers *ss, they are here to do that, so they get more customers. Of course everyone should respect your fellow man(or woman) and not go into a personal attacks, but we are here to talk about libraries and were are passionate musicians so sometimes it gets a bit over the top.



I mostly agree, but in part I disagree. I think the portamento sounds awful and artificial altogether. What sounds rather good is the music playing in between the live demo sections. Mostly marcato/pizzicato basses. Violins and celli sound terrible, but that might be due to strong but ill-fated EQing. 
The vibratos again are rather realistic I think. Also the sustained notes sound is ok, whereas attack and release sound artificial.


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## techeverlasting (Dec 28, 2013)

I have a bunch of KH's libraries. Concert Brass in particular was a great value and is something I have found quite useful. Given it's price point and goals Spotlight is competing with the Embertone solo strings. (Enough said on that point.)

If I were a developer I would want to hear this sort of frank discussion of how my demos are perceived by experienced professionals. As someone who spends a lot of money on this sort of material I am very grateful for this forum and people like Piet who are willing to present and debate their opinions, strong though they may be.


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## muk (Dec 28, 2013)

An honest discussion is indeed very welcome. It's absolutely fine to dislike a product and to voice concerns/personal dislike here. BUT (and it's a big but) the way how Piet does that is far beyond good and evil. Personally I think he should be given a temporary ban from the forum.
I'm abashed that some people here even seem to like him conducting in a bawdy manner and his below-the belt analogies.


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## chibear (Dec 28, 2013)

Hanu_H @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> chibear @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Tried it, liked it, bought it. With the 15 min time segments allowed in the demo I did this: http://soundcloud.com/clyde-lindman/ano ... irk-hunter
> ...



Nope, but I will finish it. As a musician who sat in professional orchestras for over 40 years before retirement I often find myself at odds with those who haven't as to what sounds 'real' or 'synthy', as well as the actual capabilities of good musicians. I follow my own path. Kirk knows of this track. I'll take it down if and when he requests it not because of your opinion.


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## JoMe (Dec 28, 2013)

Could someone of the Concert Brass 2 Owners post a short Demo of the Trombones?

There are absolutely no Trombones Demos on the Kirk Hunter Website, and the playable Demo only offers French Horns.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

chibear has it right. Each of us brings our musical experiences and our tastes to every library we listen to and /or use, and that is as it should be. Therefore it is not surprising that people arrive at different conclusions

Why not celebrate that rather than put others down for what they like or do not like?

.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

JoMe @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Could someone of the Concert Brass 2 Owners post a short Demo of the Trombones?
> 
> There are absolutely no Trombones Demos on the Kirk Hunter Website, and the playable Demo only offers French Horns.



Since I don't know you, I will do it for you on two conditions:

1. When I send it to you, you do not post it or share it.

2. If you feel moved to share comments on what you hear,d positive or negative, you do so in a measured and polite way.

I am not assuming you would not anyway, but since I don't know you, sadly I have to say that.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

Everytime people throw in some numbers / years / university names to give proof of their skills I like to quote/rephrase Tucholsky:
Experience does'nt mean anything, you might be doing it wrong since 35 years.
(this is my own, quite free translation of the original)


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## synthnut (Dec 28, 2013)

How many times have we bought programs, or NOT , because of the HYPE that they were tagged with ? .....The beauty of this program is that the price is right, and you can try the program BEFORE you buy it !!.....You don't have to listen to anything written ....You can make up your own mind .....What's good for me, might not be good for you !!..... A FREE demo is there for the taking to see if it works for you or not ....What could be more fair than that ? .....Jim


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Everytime people throw in some numbers / years / university names to give proof of their skills I like to quote/rephrase Tucholsky:
> Experience does'nt mean anything, you might be doing it wrong since 35 years.
> (this is my own, quite free translation of the original)



He is of course correct. Nobody should assign more weight to an opinion about what an orchestra library should sound like by a guy who played in professional orchestras for 40 years than the opinion of someone whose only experience is listening to sample libraries and going to an occasional concert.

Sure, that make sense to me. 

Seriously, lots of experience guarantees nothing but it makes the likelihood of a reasonable evaluation mathematically much higher.

Here's a quote for you, generally attributed to Sir Francis Bacon: "Knowledge is power."


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## JoMe (Dec 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> JoMe @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Could someone of the Concert Brass 2 Owners post a short Demo of the Trombones?
> ...



Yes, of course. I just want to hear a short Trombones Demo before joining the Group Buy, French Horns seems very okay to me.


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## chibear (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Everytime people throw in some numbers / years / university names to give proof of their skills I like to quote/rephrase Tucholsky:
> Experience does'nt mean anything, you might be doing it wrong since 35 years.
> (this is my own, quite free translation of the original)



rofl try holding on to an orchestra job for 3 years let alone 35 while 'doing it wrong', ESPECIALLY in Europe. Recent example from nearby you: the controversial non-rennewal of the contract of a flute soloist as Principal Flute in the Vienna Phil. Examples posted of a performance of the William Tell Overture to bolster accusations of racism and sexism only succeeded in proving the fact that she was not fitting in: 'doing it wrong' as an orchestral musician despite her abilities as a soloist.

But back to the OP and comments concerning my example, as I said I'll finish the track, probably after the 1st as I'm awash in grandchildren right now. I'll post the track in this thread AND the MIDI file so everyone who says such & such a library does better job can just plug theirs in and the difference should be instantaneous. After all I'm just an old retired brass player who took this all up as a hobby when I retired and all the people with high standards are MIDI artists so how hard can it be, right?? If I'm impressed I'll buy that library......I'll also tell you what _I_ hear after 'doing it wrong' for 50 yrs (over 40 as a pro before somebody jumps on the numbers).


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## MA-Simon (Dec 28, 2013)

Thank you for the free demo, but for the love of Cthulhu, please:
For large downloads, provide a server where a download manager is allowed _so_ I can pause & unpause downloads without them breaking and me having to restart everything all over again.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 28, 2013)

synthnut @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> How many times have we bought programs, or NOT , because of the HYPE that they were tagged with ? .....The beauty of this program is that the price is right, and you can try the program BEFORE you buy it !!.....You don't have to listen to anything written ....You can make up your own mind .....What's good for me, might not be good for you !!..... A FREE demo is there for the taking to see if it works for you or not ....What could be more fair than that ? .....Jim



Spot on, Synthnut.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Everytime people throw in some numbers / years / university names to give proof of their skills I like to quote/rephrase Tucholsky:
> ...



My irony detector gave a weak signal on your post 

No, seriously, someone sitting *IN* an orchestra playing an instrument for 40 years does not need to have a good ear / analysis skills of the other instruments, or the whole orchestra sound. Someone, hifi addictive, listening to classical recordings with utter commitment and enthusiasm for say 5 years, might easily be much more capable of judging instruments or an orchestras sound. The latter trained listening, while the first trained playing. Different pair of shoes.

Edith: another analogy: someone has been a superb racing driver for decades. Does he know more about the engine than the mechanic?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> ...



We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. At 65 years of age and with a lifetime in music, that simply does not gel with my experiences.

EDIT:
"Someone, hifi addictive, listening to classical recordings with utter commitment and enthusiasm for say 5 years" is hardly comparable to a race car mechanic. It is more comparable to someone who watches NASCAR on TV for 5 years


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## mpalenik (Dec 28, 2013)

chibear @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Nope, but I will finish it. As a musician who sat in professional orchestras for over 40 years before retirement I often find myself at odds with those who haven't as to what sounds 'real' or 'synthy', as well as the actual capabilities of good musicians. I follow my own path. Kirk knows of this track. I'll take it down if and when he requests it not because of your opinion.



I have a lot of respect for somebody in your position, since I'm sure sitting in a professional orchestra requires and develops skills that you'll never gain by fiddling around with sample libraries. However, "synthy" is a relative term. There's always a degree of fakeness expected with any sample library, but depending on what your prior exposure is to the sampling world, you might have a different scale for what's acceptable and what is not.

For example, if you've been using a Roland XP-80 to mock up orchestral work for the past 15 years, or even a more modern keyboard workstation, this KH library probably sounds like the greatest thing ever in comparison. On the other hand, I personally find the sound really lacking compared to other modern libraries. I don't mean any disrespect, I really wanted to like this library because I love the concept and it's at a great price (especially with the group buy).

Have you also listened to demos for:
Embertone's violin and cello
Spitfire solo strings
LASS First Chair
Quantum Leap solo violin

In addition to sounding great, the Embertone instruments allow for complete control of vibrato (speed, intensity, and style), have three types of legato and are very flexible in all the ways you were looking for. I'd be happy to share (again) a mockup I did with their violin, except I really didn't do the library justice (there were a few midi programming and settings related things I should have put more time into. I still think it sounds better than Spotlight Strings, though). You'd probably be better off looking at the official demos.

The Spitfire solo strings don't have the control over vibrato that you wanted, but I think they just sound significantly better than Spotlight strings. I feel similarly about LASS FC.

I never looked to deeply at the QL solo violin, but as I understand, it's a fairly flexible instrument. It didn't get a lot of love here when it came out because of the sound, but I didn't agree with everything that was said.


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## mpalenik (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Edith: another analogy: someone has been a superb racing driver for decades. Does he know more about the engine than the mechanic?



Well, no, but he might know more about race cars than a NASCAR fan.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

@chibear:

that "doing it wrong" wasn't meant literally. My main point was that 40 years of A don't necessarily make you good in B.

@EastWestLurker: yeah, then we disagree. I can't beat the years you sport, but as I said, years are not everything


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## wst3 (Dec 28, 2013)

WOW! Spend a few days away from the computer and lookie what happens<G>!

If permissible, I'll answer the original question... yeah, I think I'll be buying Spotlight Strings. Why? Well, I love the concept, I am pretty impressed with the ease of use, and I find the sound quite useful.

Before poor re-peat blows a gasket, no, it doesn't sound like the string libraries from LASS, Spitfire, Cinesamples, 8Dio or EW, among others. That is not, to me, a bad thing.

I have Kirk's CS2 and CB2, and they don't sound like the competition either. It took a little bit of effort - in both arranging and mixing - to 'bend them to my will' - but the upside of that is that I can bend them to many different moods. I'm not sure that is possible with some of the others (I don't own them, but I have used some of them at friends studios.)

As far as the rest of this goes, I think it's pretty cool that Jay and others have called into question some fairly nasty posts.

The thing is, I have no issue with any given member here liking or disliking any particular library. I believe the some here probably do cringe when they hear a KH demo. That's fine.

BUT... since this particular offering has a downloadable demo I find opinions based on web-hosted audio demos to be particularly unreliable. I'd like to think that folks with years of experience can hear the difference between lossy compression and raw audio files.

I'd also like to think that people with years of experience don't need to denigrate developers and fellow forum members just to make themselves sound "cool".

my two cents...


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## chibear (Dec 28, 2013)

> No, seriously, someone sitting *IN* an orchestra playing an instrument for 40 years does not need to have a good ear / analysis skills of the other instruments, or the whole orchestra sound



I hope that is a joke. I've been quoting the juicier stuff from these and other forums on my (real) Facebook page for my former colleagues amusement. That certainly makes the grade.

In case you were serious: A reliable musician in the orchestra is conscious of the thread of the particular line in front of him as it has gone through the orchestra and be able to set it up for the next player. This requires a TOTAL analysis of pitch, rhythm, balance, phrasing, and style of what has come before plus a respect for those that are to follow AND specifically how that contribution will effect the entire performance of your section, instrument family and entire orchestra. Each musician does not exist in his own little vacuum.

*@mpalenik:* Thank you for your intelligent and civilized response. I'm her to learn too. I forget this forum is not connected to a manufacturer so I can speak freely.

SO to answer you questions as to library history, when shopping for libraries I listen to both the publishers' examples to see what is possible and then if I like, the user demos to see what the usual product is. From that research in orchestra libraries I have bought:

Miroslav, which has wonderful strings but is lacking in brass power and articulations in general. My former violinist colleagues hate the solo violin vibrato. I didn't notice 

Kontakt Factory library, which kind of cemented my dislike for VSL in general.

EWQL SO Platinum; This is one I really wanted and works OK for the most part IF you do it the EWQL way. The solo trumpet here is spectacular. There are lots of articulations but little flexibility withing them, weak and inflexible solo flute, great horn section, inflexible solo horn, out of tune trombones. The extra mics are worth the money in Platinum IMO. I would not have bought gold.

What I did not like:
Garritan, VSL, EWQL Hollywood series (life would be simpler if I had), and all those various libraries coming out of Eastern Europe and he Balkans.

So libraries (positions) to fill: Solo Strings, Solo Horn, Solo Flute, trombones.

Of the libraries you mentioned, I have a friend who is trying out the Embertone stuff and is so far having a love-hate relationship with it. IMO both are no-brainers even if they half-work

I like the Spitfire libraries (They are ADD, no?). The problem for me, aside from price, is they are download only and I am on rural high speed with a data ceiling and spending $100's for a trans-oceanic download creeps me out. 

LASS I have to have another look at. Last listen I was not all that impressed for the price.

For the QL Solo Violin I have yet to hear a user performance that I find impressive.

What I am looking for are instruments I can control. I'm not saying Kirk's libraries are THE best bet (but still a good addition for me). So far they behave like I want strings to more so than anything else I've tried.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

@chibear: hm, you may be right. Though you describe it as if every single musician is as analytic as the conductor, I doubt that. But still, you maybe right that the orchestra musician indeed has a good knowledge of the instruments sounds, not only his own one.


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## germancomponist (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> @chibear: hm, you may be right. Though you describe it as if every single musician is as analytic as the conductor, I doubt that. But still, you maybe right that the orchestra musician indeed has a good knowledge of the instruments sounds, not only his own one.



I have also played in orchestras for years and yes, after a while you know the sound from all instruments best. And, much more important, you know how the instruments are played and what works in the real world and what not. Best knowledge when it comes to compose and arrange with/via midi.... .


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## muk (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> But still, you maybe right that the orchestra musician indeed has a good knowledge of the instruments sounds, not only his own one.



Indeed. Woodwind players for example have to be very sensitive for what's going on around them because they have to constantly adapt their intonation. If they had to play with completely soundproof earplugs the orchestra would sound horrible!


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## Hanu_H (Dec 28, 2013)

Chibear,
you got me totally wrong. I didn't want to insult you in any way. We are talking about the library here and I just think that your demo is not using this new library to it's best. Of course it's your decision to take it away or not. But the fact that you are a pro player from a orchestra for 40 years doesn't really matter much on the sampling world. I know classical composers who work with live orchestras all the time and they can't make the best libraries out there to sound even decent. And at the same time I know guys without any formal training who can make every library sing and sound good.

EastWest Lurker,
Why you always make these things personal? No one cares how long anyone has been doing this or what degrees they have. That's just same bullying what Piet is doing and you do it all the time in almost every thread you get involved. Especially in those ones where you have nothing to show for your opinions, you pull the age card. And this is definitely not a matter of opinion. It either sounds good or not...You can easily just make a demo with Spotlight Strings and then let someone remake it with any of the other libraries and everyone can judge if they like it or not. And yet better if the piece is something we all know already. 30-60 secs will do...

wst3,
It sounds that you don't have a lot of libraries under your belt. Have you ever tried LASS or VSL? You can also alter their sound to any use as well and really easily now with Mir and the new stage and color for LASS.

Of course everyone can make their own decisions, I am just curious to know why people would buy this when there is so much better libraries available, even in the same price range. When I watched the video I was excited about the design, but all the demos and all the examples I hear, just sound like it's from the 90's...


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## mpalenik (Dec 28, 2013)

chibear @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Kontakt Factory library, which kind of cemented my dislike for VSL in general.


From what I understand, working with the actual VSL libraries is very different from working with the Kontakt factory library, although I don't have any experience with the actual VSL instrument. Also, the Kontakt factory library doesn't (I think) allow for modwheel controlled dynamics. I used to control all of my dynamics by key velocity, but it really makes an enormous difference in realism if you use modwheel dynamics.



> I like the Spitfire libraries (They are ADD, no?). The problem for me, aside from price, is they are download only and I am on rural high speed with a data ceiling and spending $100's for a trans-oceanic download creeps me out.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by ADD. There's not much control over vibrato, but I find them very playable. With no added reverbs, processing, or extra midi editing beyond a second pass with the modwheel for dynamics, I was able to make this: https://soundcloud.com/mpalenik/themespart which I think sounds pretty decent. It was based on a piece of music that a friend of mine wrote and recorded with actual players years ago, except the actual recording has a vocal line. For fun, I listened to it and tried to reproduce the instrumental part (the full thing is 30 minutes long. I have some other parts that I did as well, but not on soundcloud). The sound and expression of the cello matched the original remarkably well, I thought.

The tremolo in the last few second is actually done with Kirk Hunter's solo strings, which is why it stands out like a sore thumb (not a negative comment, just a very different recording style and space).

I feel like if you tried to reproduce a line like this with Spotlight Strings it just wouldn't work at all. Sometimes, it's a matter of finding the right tool for the right job, but to my ears this cello sounds much more like a real cello than the cellos in spotlight strings. Do you feel differently? I'm just curious, no judgement in regards to your opinion.


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## Nuno (Dec 28, 2013)

mpalenik @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> > I like the Spitfire libraries (They are ADD, no?). The problem for me, aside from price, is they are download only and I am on rural high speed with a data ceiling and spending $100's for a trans-oceanic download creeps me out.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by ADD.



Yes, ADD, recorded on tape


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## playz123 (Dec 28, 2013)

A=Analog.....meaning recording was done on tape...then the audio was converted to D= Digital then mixed and mastered in D=Digital. Therefore "ADD". Some people do everything in digital, including the recording, so that would then be referenced on a CD or whatever as DDD.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

Hanu_H @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker,
> Why you always make these things personal? No one cares how long anyone has been doing this or what degrees they have. That's just same bullying what Piet is doing and you do it all the time in almost every thread you get involved. Especially in those ones where you have nothing to show for your opinions, you pull the age card. And this is definitely not a matter of opinion. It either sounds good or not...You can easily just make a demo with Spotlight Strings and then let someone remake it with any of the other libraries and everyone can judge if they like it or not. And yet better if the piece is something we all know already. 30-60 secs will do...



The difference is is that I don't say that anyone who disagrees with me has bad ears or is somehow deficient. I DO maintain that experience and education make a difference and I will continue to do so. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.

As for "It either sounds good or not." we have already proven in this thread and others that that statement is untrue because it is totally subjective and what sounds good to some listeners clearly does not to others.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Hanu_H @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > As for "It either sounds good or not." we have already proven in this thread and others that that statement is untrue because it is totally subjective and what sounds good to some listeners clearly does not to others.


Ahaha! I shall remind you of that statement the next time there's a thread on the virtues of certain types of music on this forum!


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Hanu_H @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> ...



:lol: no, dubstep is empirically the worst genre and if you don't agree you have bad taste. :twisted:


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> As for "It either sounds good or not." we have already proven in this thread and others that that statement is untrue because it is totally subjective and what sounds good to some listeners clearly does not to others.



I disagree again. Here, we talk about "does it sound like a natural instrument or not", and this is much more objective than "good/bad". Yes, "natural sound" is a little bit subjective, but not to such a big extent. Even my grandma could identify a real cello and a 90ies rompler.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 28, 2013)

Chibear- there are a number of of good choices, but for your solo horn and possibly the trombones, give a listen to SampleModeling's offerings. Very flexible, good sounding and uncomplicated.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > As for "It either sounds good or not." we have already proven in this thread and others that that statement is untrue because it is totally subjective and what sounds good to some listeners clearly does not to others.
> ...



Well, I have no dog in that hunt. None of the libraries sound to me "like a natural instrument" any more than holding a photo of a beautiful [EDIT by Hannes_F on] significant other feels like holding the significant other [EDIT off]. So I don't hold them to that standard.

I had a clarinet patch on my old Kurzweil 1000 PX that I loved and if I had a sample of it, a lot of times I would probably still reach for it in many compositions.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

I guess that rather compares to holding the USB stick with a cello lib vs. holding the cello 

:D


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## quantum7 (Dec 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> I had a clarinet patch on my old Kurzweil 1000 PX that I loved and if I had a sample of it, a lot of times I would probably still reach for it in many compositions.



Thanks for that trip down memory lane. I also miss my old K1000 and do remember that clarinet sounding pretty sweet.


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## Hanu_H (Dec 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> The difference is is that I don't say that anyone who disagrees with me has bad ears or is somehow deficient. I DO maintain that experience and education make a difference and I will continue to do so. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.
> 
> As for "It either sounds good or not." we have already proven in this thread and others that that statement is untrue because it is totally subjective and what sounds good to some listeners clearly does not to others.


But that's exactly what you are saying. You say that I have been many years in the industry and know better than you because of that. It's just a more polite way of saying it. But enough of that, it's just funny to see how some people can judge others and do the same thing with a slightly different approach but same goal in mind...And as for the record, I have nothing against anyone here, especially Eastwest Lurker. I think he's great guy, helping everyone when he can. But I also think that because more and more sample library companies rise and the competition is getting tougher, more honest feedback is required to help us composers for purchasing right products. If sample libraries where returnable I think everything would be easier and people wouldn't be so on the edge.

About the sound...I disagree also. Good synth sound is subjective. But when emulating a real instrument, it either sounds like the real deal or doesn't. It has real dynamics or doesn't. As an example...when listening LASS demos I am sure that most of the non-musicians won't hear the difference with the real strings. But when listening KH's demos, many will say it doesn't sound real or will say something is off.


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## Sid Francis (Dec 28, 2013)

[ :lol: no, dubstep is empirically the worst genre and if you don't agree you have bad taste. :twisted:[/quote]

:D That made me laugh out loud... and I agree...the age...the age.... 8)


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 28, 2013)

@Hanu_H How many posts and hours will you spend insulting the opinions of others that don't agree with you in a series of passive/aggressive posts? I truly don't understand the logic behind someone who proclaims he doesn't like a library and has written it off and then spends hours nitpicking, criticizing and berating the opinions and abilities of others as if he is on a crusade to squash and invalidate the non-conforming opinions of others. Granted, there's a group of folks here that do that on a serial basis, so you're certainly not alone. But as the offender of the hour, I can count at least three people who you've blatantly demeaned because their opinions didn't align with yours and you did it all in a single post on your crusade (kudos for efficiency in that post). Specifically: 

- You wrote to WST3: "It sounds that you don't have a lot of libraries under your belt." Wow. So if someone doesn't agree with you, it's because they're just not knowledgeable - at least that's clearly how you see it. I happen to know this poster and he's fairly experienced. 

- You wrote to EastWest Lurker: "Why you always make these things personal? No one cares how long anyone has been doing this or what degrees they have. That's just same bullying what Piet is doing and you do it all the time in almost every thread you get involved." I plainly witnessed the very opposite of what you described. Jay has been making numerous yet, sadly, ignored appeals for civility and you not only berate him, you call him a bully? It became the theater of the absurd with that remark of yours.

- You wrote to Chibear (and insulted him numerous times) -- and it's only his 2nd day as a forum member, so much for the honeymoon -- but here's a quote of yours that reflects someone who realizes they have inserted their foot into their mouth: "You got me totally wrong. I didn't want to insult you in any way." But you did exactly that and you did it more than once.

If you have negative criticisms, you can provide them without berating the opinions of others.


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## Arbee (Dec 28, 2013)

One of the great mysteries of the universe to me is how so many people with "real strings" experience (and I'll include me in that bunch) can hold such diverse views on which string libraries come closest to a convincing representation of the real thing. To each of us it seems so obvious, and yet we seem to differ so much (and not to mention so passionately :shock: ). ~o) 


.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

Hanu_H @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > The difference is is that I don't say that anyone who disagrees with me has bad ears or is somehow deficient. I DO maintain that experience and education make a difference and I will continue to do so. Sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.
> ...



Let me be clear. I don't think my experience and education makes my ears better than anyone else's nor does it make my taste infallible or indisputable. But yes, I DO think it makes my opinion intrinsically more valuable than someone who does not have that. I make no apologies for believing that.

But as you say, I AM polite about it and I don't attack someone in a nasty fashion when they say, as you did, that it doesn't matter. And I think that is important.


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## Ryan99 (Dec 28, 2013)

Sid Francis @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> From now on your name shall be "FrankenRyan" :D



Yes, that's a good one! :D 

One thing's for sure, from now on, I will let this monster lives by himself.. I'm outta here!!


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## chibear (Dec 28, 2013)

@ eDrummist: Not to worry. I have a thick skin, besides better to be insulted than ignored. At least then I know somebody was paying attention :wink: 

@Hanu_H: I understand there is a bit of a language problem as far as inflections etc. I realize now you were making a direct statement without realizing the implications. No offense taken, BUT ALSO, without spelling it out, I thought I made it clear that the sample was produced from the demo version with a limited working time which was not a finished example but rather out-of-the-box.

@NYC Composer: Thanks, I have looked at those. Unfortunately they don't do it for me. The sound (at least from the samples) is a bit monochromatic (kind of like 8-D or silver Kruspe where I am looking more for a Geyer or Alexander sound: a bit tighter & cleaner with more variations available) and the articulations not all that well implemented

@mpalenik: I listened to your clip a couple of times and had problems getting past the piano to the cellos. As far as actual timbre, I have to agree I do like them better than the KH so far but I've done very little cello work in the KH library. I've gotten so much guff for presenting an umfinished example that I'm working to finish it before I do Kirk any more damage :roll: BUT I did notice at about 1:00 there was a repeated period that also had EXACTLY the same vibrato pattern. If so that would bother me. Agreed the tremelo is an issue in SSS in at least I have not cracked it yet. Fooling with the velocity layers helps a bit but stayed tuned.


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## trumpoz (Dec 28, 2013)

Hey Chibear - you will never find a horn library you are happy with...... Just as I will never ring a solo trumpet I'm happy with. Nature of the beast unfortunately mate. Given who you have performed with you may struggle to find much that lives up to it ;-p

I also want to give a big wrap for SM trombone. Works great with a breath controller and well worth the effort to get I to sit in the mix


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

eDrummist,

You are hardly qualified, it seems to me, to teach the rest of us about ‘good behaviour’ and ‘showing respect for others’. I may be lacking somewhat in the social skills department myself ― but then I would also never be so presumptuous and pretentious as to claim any authority on lecturing others how to behave themselves ―, but the conceited and childish tactics which you’ve been using throughout this thread to counter disagreeing voices with, are not exactly shining examples of intelligent, civil and respectful conduct either, if I may say so.

The biggest part of your [EDITED by Hannes_F] contribution to this thread consists of little else than totally absurd assumptions and unfounded accusations in my direction, [EDITED], pedantic dwellings on the code of conduct we should all abide by, and a recurring quote of something I supposed to have said a long time ago but which you never bothered to check of course.
(Until you find me that post of mine where I allegedly said what you keep claiming I said, allow me to label you, publically, a dishonest and cowardly spreader of infantile fabrications and malicious imaginings. Or ‘plain lies’, as some people call these things.) 
I don’t deny having written some rather unpleasant things about the KH catalogue, and I will happily continue to do so as long as its developer gives me reason to (which will probably be for as long as he keeps releasing sample libraries), but if you’re going to quote me on the subject, as you seem to like to do, at least try to do so honestly. (There is a magnificent abundance of nasty things which I have said on the subject, and most of it is still accessible in the V.I.-vaults I suppose, so why not use it to your best advantage and quote from this incriminating wealth accurately and truthfully? As any teacher in respectful manners ― even the self-appointed ones like yourself ― would.)

Yes, over the years I have commented unfavourably on Emerald, Ruby and the Concert Strings (in much the same way as I have commented on several other sample libraries as it happens) and if, in KH’s case, these comments turned out to be extremely negative, even brutal, that was only because, in my view, those libraries did deserve it. Uncalled for? I never thought so. In fact, it wasn’t just called for, those libraries and the lack of ethics behind them begged for it. It’s not my fault that Mr. Hunter seems to specialize in phenomenally bad libraries, is it? And excuse me, but anyone selling sheer incompetence should be prepared for some unpleasant backfiring, it seems to me.

And contrary to what you suggest, what I have been attacking all this time is not Mr. Hunter himself ― apart from the fact that I don’t know this undoubtedly nice man, I am far too indifferent towards him to waste any energy on any personal vendetta ― but what the signature ‘KH’ stands for in my book: sub-standard quality, in commercial products.
Call me old-fashioned, but I happen to value endangered assets like quality, genuine craftsmanship and professional integrity. I strive for it in my own work and, yes, I hope/expect other professionals to strive for it in theirs. So I am sorry, but when I hear http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/KH_Spotlight_Cellos.mp3 (strings sampled as badly as Mr. Hunter sampled them for this new library), I can’t but expres my complete bewilderment, lack of understanding and anger as to why anyone can have so little shame and self-respect, delivering work of such poor quality, and even dare ask money for it. (Even if these Spotlights were priced at only $1, I’d still consider it an insulting indecency.)

Oh, and another little thing. You also keep insisting on sharing another delusion of yours with us, that I spend hours and hours scrutinizing KH’s work. I have to disappoint you again, I’m afraid. (You think I’m a masochist as well as someone with ODC, or what?) I only had to listen once to the official Spotlight demos (any more would have ruined the jolly holiday spirit), and grabbing/editing the audio from that YT-video was a work of mere minutes. 
I listened to Chibear’s contribution as well (two times even) and ― unfortunately, but wholly predictably ― it only confirmed everything I said before. (As well as one other little thing: that decades of orchestral experience don’t amount to much, when switching over to the virtual idiom.) But Chibear is at least right on one point: no other library equals Spotlight Strings. There is indeed no other stringslibrary of recent times, KH’s previous ones excluded of course, which is as good at sounding bad as these Spotlights.

_


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## AC986 (Dec 29, 2013)

Well you know what they say about drummers. Guys that like to hang out with musicians.

o[])


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 29, 2013)

adriancook @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Well you know what they say about drummers. Guys that like to hang out with musicians.



No, that's them bass players you are talking about :D


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## AC986 (Dec 29, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> adriancook @ Sun Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Well you know what they say about drummers. Guys that like to hang out with musicians.
> ...



:D 

Not that I'm a musician you understand! Ha!


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## chibear (Dec 29, 2013)

trumpoz @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Hey Chibear - you will never find a horn library you are happy with...... Just as I will never ring a solo trumpet I'm happy with. Nature of the beast unfortunately mate. Given who you have performed with you may struggle to find much that lives up to it ;-p
> 
> I also want to give a big wrap for SM trombone. Works great with a breath controller and well worth the effort to get I to sit in the mix



Trompoz! Nice to see a familiar (and friendly) name :D You may be right. All I want is a horn that sounds like I want it to and doesn't do things in articulations that I would yell at my students for doing. Not asking much :mrgreen: 

There is a lot of what I hear in Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2 that I have liked so while the group buy is on I'll pick that up and see (Yes those are war drums you hear above at the mention of the name Kirk Hunter  )

I haven't checked out the trombone yet. will do. I'll have to pass on the breath controller, though. If my geriatric Mennonite wife sees me staring at the computer with headphones on and something coming out of my mouth she's likely to call in the exorcist ~o)


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## wst3 (Dec 29, 2013)

Mr. edrummist, I'm afraid you've attributed a quote to me that I never made. In fact that quote was a response to my post<G>.

And to answer that assertion, no I do not own any of the high end libraries, yet. I'm actually ok with that most of the time, I think some limitations can serve to help us grow. Sometimes it seems I was more productive when all I had was an eight track half inch tape deck, an MS-20, a Drumtracks and Multitracks, and of course my guitars<G>!

I have used LASS and Cinematic Strings 2 at a friends studio. They are both really remarkable libraries - if I were independently wealthy, or able to earn more with my compositions I'd probably buy them both, along with everything from Cinesamples, Spitfire, SoundIron, and probably a few others.

Great strides are made every month in the tools that let us create believable mock-ups. Currently it seems the biggest game changers are the reverbs and other spatial tools, but the libraries themselves are also growing in complexity and capability.

Here's the thing, FOR ME... I've played in all sorts of bands, ensembles, and orchestras over the years, and I've been fortunate to record almost all variations of them with shoddy tools, and with really good tools. I've worked in my untreated basement and in well designed critical listening spaces.

I have an idea of what I'd like any given production to sound like before the tape rolls. Sometimes I chase that sound, sometimes I allow serendipity to lead the way<G>!

(aside - one of my favorite compositions resulted from me setting something wrong in my sequencer. When I played the part in it was quantized beyond recognition. I preferred the result over my original idea! Would I have gotten there otherwise? No way of knowing. The piece was well received, so I'm glad for the happy accident.)

Anyway, I have yet to hear a demo, or work with a library that sounded truly realistic. I have heard demos that were so well written and produced that I cared not a whit about realism. The composer or arranger selected exactly the right libraries for the job... and that's the key.

When I first started experimenting with virtual instruments I selected GPO. I didn't think I'd ever out grow it, but I was very well aware of the limits it placed on me and my work. I still think it was a good first choice because it forced me to develop a work flow that worked for it, warts and all.

I was wrong, and I did outgrow it. KH Diamond, and later CS2 and CB2 provided me with new features and capabilities. I don't think I'll retire any of the KH libraries, but who knows, when I eventually purchase Cinesamples or Spitfire or LASS or Cinematic Strings or whatever I may.

That does not make the KH libraries any less valuable to me. Stepping stone or not they allow me to realize ideas I could not realize without them. 

I've also dipped my toes into the "baked in ensemble" approach with Orchestral Examples... I didn't expect to be able to work with them, but much to my surprise they are quite valuable. And yet many here will discount this approach out of hand simply because it lacks the flexibility of a more detailed library.

Bottom line, again for me, is that there are no right answers, and probably no wrong answers. We buy the tools we can afford at any point along the way, and we use them to the best of our abilities, within the limits they may impose.


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## Hanu_H (Dec 29, 2013)

eDrummist @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> @Hanu_H How many posts and hours will you spend insulting the opinions of others that don't agree with you in a series of passive/aggressive posts? I truly don't understand the logic behind someone who proclaims he doesn't like a library and has written it off and then spends hours nitpicking, criticizing and berating the opinions and abilities of others as if he is on a crusade to squash and invalidate the non-conforming opinions of others. Granted, there's a group of folks here that do that on a serial basis, so you're certainly not alone. But as the offender of the hour, I can count at least three people who you've blatantly demeaned because their opinions didn't align with yours and you did it all in a single post on your crusade (kudos for efficiency in that post). Specifically:


Wow, just wow. How many posts and hours? I have posted in this thread now 4 times. You have posted 13 times, many times trying to invalid others opinions and derailing this thread into nonsense. We are talking about library and it's sound here, what is there to talk about if we can't say what we hear?



eDrummist @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> - WST3, when you wrote "It sounds that you don't have a lot of libraries under your belt." Wow. So if someone doesn't agree with you, it's because they're just not knowledgeable - at least that's clearly how you see it. I happen to know this poster and he's very experienced and has a good deal of libraries from various developers.


He said this: I have Kirk's CS2 and CB2, and they don't sound like the competition either. It took a little bit of effort - in both arranging and mixing - to 'bend them to my will' - but the upside of that is that I can bend them to many different moods. I'm not sure that is possible with some of the others (I don't own them, but I have used some of them at friends studios.)

And I gave him some suggestions about better sounding libraries that are easy to use in different moods and settings. I don't understand how this is insulting at all...



eDrummist @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> - EastWest Lurker, when you wrote: "Why you always make these things personal? No one cares how long anyone has been doing this or what degrees they have. That's just same bullying what Piet is doing and you do it all the time in almost every thread you get involved." I plainly witnessed the very opposite of what you described. Jay has been making numerous yet, sadly, ignored appeals for civility and you not only berate him, you call him a bully? It became the theater of the absurd with that remark of yours.


Jay can speak for himself and he did already...



eDrummist @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> - Chibear, you insulted him a bunch of times -- and it's only his 2nd day as a forum member, so much for the honeymoon -- but here's a quote of yours that reflects someone who realizes they have inserted their foot into their mouth: "You got me totally wrong. I didn't want to insult you in any way." But you did exactly that and you did it more than once.


Hmm, I only suggested him to take it away and finish it first because I knew it was done in 15 minutes. It was not the best sounding demo for a new library and I am sure Chibear knew that also. And I really didn't say anything bad about the composition, only about the sound.

-Hannes


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

wst3 @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Mr. edrummist, I'm afraid you've attributed a quote to me that I never made. In fact that quote was a response to my post<G>.



Right, Bill, it was a quote that was _made to you_ by Hanu_H, who was the person I was addressing in my post.


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## mpalenik (Dec 29, 2013)

chibear @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> BUT I did notice at about 1:00 there was a repeated period that also had EXACTLY the same vibrato pattern.



I've listened to the example I posted at least 10 times with headphones now and I don't hear what you're talking about. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that the 2nd cello is playing 3 different notes around 1:00 (where I'm calling the 1st cello the one with the melody) and each trigger of a new note sounds like the vibrato repeating if you can't hear the instrument that well?

I should mention there is a glitch immediately when the cello comes in at the beginning and if I had meant for this to be more than a "hey, check this out" for the person who originally wrote and recorded the piece, I would have bounced it a second time.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

Just some of the things re-peat has called me or terms he used to refer to my words in his latest diatribe: 

dishonest
cowardly
malicious
pretentious
conceited 
tediously pompous
totally absurd 
pathetic self-aggrandizement
pedantic

I called out a total of two individuals in this thread for attacking a developer personally (in his latest post re-peat asserts that Mr Hunter has a "lack of ethics" and previously referred to his work as "excrement") or attacking others who do not share their views. My intent in calling out re-peat/Piet's over-the-top bad behavior, and violating VI-Control's rules that members must maintain respect for each other (a paraphrase). I don't think such behavior should go unchecked and I realize that whoever confronts such hostile and aggressive individuals will serve as a lightening rod for their anger, so I did not enjoy the confrontation, but two decades managing and consulting on social media tell me that it is necessary to do so and my hope are that VI Control intervenes and practices some kind of moderation (as they do practice). 

I think a healthy forum has diverse opinions -- positive and negative opinions and analysis are all valuable. But respect for each other is a non-negotiable if we want to maintain a healthy forum. Over-the-top insults or attacks on a developer, their reputations, their merits as a developer and insults directed at other forum members who possess a favorable opinion of that developer should not be tolerated and seen as acceptable as per VI Control policy as well as commonly held standards of online civility.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

Hanu_H @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> I have posted in this thread now 4 times. You have posted 13 times, many times trying to invalid others opinions and derailing this thread into nonsense. We are talking about library and it's sound here, what is there to talk about if we can't say what we hear?



Hannes, I only called out two people who posted in this thread, re-peat and you, respectively. No one else. I have no issue with anyone stating a negative opinion. I take issue with people who insult others for stating opinions they do not agree with or going beyond critical assessments of a library into personal insults directed at a developer. It is, pure and simple, intimidation, whether or not you realize it. Anyhow, there's no way that your behavior is on the same level as re-peats, but considering the environment that re-peat established, your quoting and insulting others who stated positive opinions about Kirk Hunter Studios' libraries certainly adds to a hostile environment for anyone who dissents with your and re-peats views, though you and re-peat fail to see this. In short, it's one thing to state your opinion, it's another thing to insult others for having a different opinion. If you note, in this thread, when I called out you and re-peat for insulting others work (Hunter) or other members for stating positive opinions of Kirk Hunter Studios libraries, I didn't even state my opinions of Kirk's libraries or attack your right to have a negative opinion of his libraries (and there are several others who posted negative opinions; note that I didn't have any issues with their posts). Your opinion of the libraries isn't the problem, it is your insulting other forum members.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 29, 2013)

Hey eDrummist,
Give it a rest.....rise above it............ignore it even......or
accept some of these adjectives will stick.


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

eDrummist @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> dishonest
> cowardly
> malicious
> presumptuous
> ...



Reading your ramblings, eDrummist, I would say those are pretty accurate. And reading your last post, let me add two more: sanctimonious and silly.
Oh and by the way, I have _never_ attacked anyone in this thread who doesn’t share my views. Never. (Up until now that is.) Which makes you a liar and a bit of a hysterical drama-queen as well.

_


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Hey eDrummist,
> Give it a rest.....rise above it............ignore it even......or
> accept some of these adjectives will stick.



My issue is this, for years, re-peat and some others have sabotaged every thread I've seen here where Kirk Hunter's name has been brought up. They attempt to intimidate anyone who states anything positive about his libraries and make criticism that goes far, far beyond a critical analysis of a library. I'm not concerned with being a lightening rod and this thread was trashed early on and beyond being salvaged. I greatly appreciate critical analysis of sample libraries, VSTS, etc. But that's not the problem. Anyhow, I'm not concerned with being a lightening rod -- I realized that before posting -- and re-peat and some others trashed this thread early on as they have done with most others that mention KHS. It's also not consistent with the policies of this forum and promised moderation.


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## chibear (Dec 29, 2013)

mpalenik @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> chibear @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > BUT I did notice at about 1:00 there was a repeated period that also had EXACTLY the same vibrato pattern.
> ...



Ya I noticed the glitch. that was N.P. I went back and listened again and it happens on the 3 pickups starting on 0:56. Obviously I'm not a string player, but to the best of my knowledge it sounds like the cellist is doing an upbow with a crescendo on each note which he/she would not normally do unless specifically asked to because they would be looking at directing the phrase (and crescendo) to the 4th note so it would be the 3 pickups in a single upbow, connected bowing OR up-down-up, landing on a down. What bothered me from a sample standpoint was that on each note the crecendo and pattern and intensity of vibrato were identical. Good sound & piece though.


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## chibear (Dec 29, 2013)

> My issue is this, for years, re-peat and some others have sabotaged every thread I've seen here where Kirk Hunter's name has been brought up. They attempt to intimidate anyone who states anything positive about his libraries and make criticism that goes far, far beyond a critical analysis of a library. I'm not concerned with being a lightening rod and this thread was trashed early on and beyond being salvaged.



Admittedly I'm relatively new to the sample world, but I've been curious about this for awhile....and it's not just on this forum. I lurk on a several forums. That's how I learn (been on this one for a year before I registered). Anyway, one sure way to quiet a thread or cause an explosion is to bring up the name of Kirk Hunter. Why is that? What has this man done? There seems to be some political or corporate agenda, not merely a dislike for his libraries.

SSS is my first KH library. It won't be my last because *I LIKE IT*, especially after working with it for an hour non-stop today.(fixed, refined, honed demo that I spent more than 15 minutes on coming soon)


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## mpalenik (Dec 29, 2013)

chibear @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Ya I noticed the glitch. that was N.P. I went back and listened again and it happens on the 3 pickups starting on 0:56. Obviously I'm not a string player, but to the best of my knowledge it sounds like the cellist is doing an upbow with a crescendo on each note which he/she would not normally do unless specifically asked to because they would be looking at directing the phrase (and crescendo) to the 4th note so it would be the 3 pickups in a single upbow



I can't tell you for sure if that's a repeated upbow or if it alternates between upbows and downbows, but it sounds like I may have triggered what they call the "bow change legato" (detache) on those notes, which is controlled by velocity. Unfortunately I don't have the pro tools session with me here to check for sure. Likely that could have been avoided by me lightening up on the keyboard there.


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## windshore (Dec 29, 2013)

OK all, let's just take it down a few notches.

Guys who are so worked up should take a day or 2 off the board. 

I'm serious.


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

eDrummist,

The wise thing would be to simply ignore you (and I guess the community here, and certainly the moderators, would like that as well), but you keep coming up with these preposterous lies that I just can’t let pass. (And I’m beginning to enjoy this as well, I have to say, but maybe I shouldn’t say that.)

Now, tell me, how on earth could I ever intimidate anyone here? With what sort of threat would I do that? An angry re-peat writing nasty words? A virtual kick in the bidoobies? Surely those must be the most ridiculous and impotent threats ever conceived.

And, again: where exactly did I trash this thread (or any other KH thread for that matter)? I know very well that I’ve always been extremely negative about KH’s products (and with good reason I believe), but I’ve also always backed my statements up with very clear audio examples. So now it’s up to you, I would think, or one of your like-minded pals, to counter my arguments with a solid defense. Instead of whining like a cry-baby about how evil I am, why not simply post a good-sounding example of KH strings to shut me up with? I would love nothing more, honestly.

I’ve been asking for good-sounding KH-music for years and the only ones who ever responded, were Hannes and Roberto. Both with pretty impressive material. And I’ve acknowledged that, humbly and respectfully, in each case.

But you? Lots of noise, lots of indignitation, lots of bitter frustration, lots of wild accusations, lots of infantile blah-blah … but not a single intelligent, let alone convincing, initiative or argument to bring some much-needed balance to the contents of this thread. Something which, I believe, Kirk would like as well. If you think so highly of him and his work, why not help him out here?

_


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

For anyone considering Kirk Hunter Studios libraries and their current Group Buy, while we've gotten to know VI Control's re-peat and some other very vocal VI Controllers are not users, I thought I'd point out some folks who are users: 

VI Control's own Jay Asher -- Jay's pretty modest and I wonder if most people here are aware of his credentials. He's written/co-written music for Whitney Houston, Donna Summer, Julio Iglesias, Minnie Ripperton and many others and has done scores for numerous movies and tv shows. Bruce Miller (Rod Stewart, Joss Stone, Gladys Knight, Smokey Robinson...). Jeff Beal (Ugly Betty, Monk...). Alan Sylvestri (too many blockbuster movies to list, but some classics include Forest Gump, Back to the Future, Cast Away, Roger Rabbit, The Bodyguard, Stuart Little...). Shawn Patterson (too many tv shows to list for Sony, Disney, Universal, CBS, Nickelodeon, etc.). David Newman (too many movies to list, some big ones include Ice Age, The Might Ducks, The Nutty Professor...). Jeff Bova (Michael Jackson, Kelly Clarkson, Jordin Sparks, Herbie Hancock, Eric Clapton...). Kerry Livgren (Kansas)...

Name users aren't everything, but I seriously don't believe these composers/musicians would use libraries or allow their names to be known as users of libraries that are as bad as some here are claiming. Clearly, there is a difference of opinion that exists.


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

eDrummist @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> (...) while we've gotten to know VI Control's re-peat (...) are not users (...)


Wrong again. (You really aren't very good at this, are you?) I actually own four KH libraries (Kirk can confirm that if you ask him): the Virtuoso Strings (EMU e6400 version), the Solo Strings, Emerald and the Studio Strings. Yes, sir. It's true that I don't use them very often, but they do come in handy whenever I want to clear the neighbourhood so that I can work in peace.

_


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> eDrummist @ Sun Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) while we've gotten to know VI Control's re-peat (...) are not users (...)
> ...



I stated users, not customers or former customers. If you are correcting me that you are a user, I apologize (although in your post you refer to being a user in a very sarcastic and insulting manner, so I don't think you are at all being serious about being a user). 

Although, I didn't know that you owned KHS libraries, as you have not mentioned it. All I, or anyone else here who doesn't know you personally, knows about you is based purely upon what you share in your posts.


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## synthnut (Dec 29, 2013)

That's pretty interesting that it took you buying 4 libraries to realize that you didn't like Kirks work ....hmmmm.....I can't remember ever doing something like that ....very interesting indeed !!.....


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 29, 2013)

eDrummist and Repeat, even though i am sure some have their popcorn out for the show, at this point could you guys handle this through pm's, your viewpoints are clearly stated here in public already.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 29, 2013)

Actually I was being on the look for solo strings for quite some time, and Prague Solo Strings came back to mind. They are on a christmas discount at $79 currently. Anyone able to compare these?
Judging from the samples, Prague sounds better to me. However their hundredsomething Kontakt patches turn me off.


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> (...) at this point could you guys handle this through pm's (...).


We already are, Craig. No worries. Everything is smoothly sorted. We are even on first name terms by now.

_


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Sun Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) at this point could you guys handle this through pm's (...).
> ...



He's not kidding, either. See VI-Control, if re-peat and eDrummist (AKA Piet and Peter) can get along, maybe there just is hope for world peace. o-[][]-o


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## Gusfmm (Dec 29, 2013)

Trying to stay within politically correct terms, I completely agree, putting all the noise aside, with Piet's opinion that the sound qualities of the library from what I've listened to are very uninspiring (again, note my safe tone here...). But it really took a few seconds, to arrive to the same core conclusion.

A real shame, as after viewing the demo video the interface, programing and concept looked very promising, but the raw sound really killed it for me, that is.


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## Wes Antczak (Dec 29, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Actually I was being on the look for solo strings for quite some time, and Prague Solo Strings came back to mind. They are on a christmas discount at $79 currently. Anyone able to compare these?
> Judging from the samples, Prague sounds better to me. However their hundredsomething Kontakt patches turn me off.




I just did a search for Prague Solo Strings and the demos sound pretty nice. It would be interesting to hear people's comparisons of these two. It may be that this is not the right thread for that... but at least thank you for bringing these up. It's good that we are afforded a number of options to choose from these days and I can fully appreciate that what may be inspiring for one person might not be so inspiring for someone else. So I welcome that we have such choices available.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 29, 2013)

Gusfmm @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Trying to stay within politically correct terms, I completely agree, putting all the noise aside, with Piet's opinion that the sound qualities of the library from what I've listened to are very uninspiring (again, note my safe tone here...). But it really took a few seconds, to arrive to the same core conclusion.
> 
> A real shame, as after viewing the demo video the interface, programing and concept looked very promising, but the raw sound really killed it for me, that is.



If the interface, programming and concept greatly appeal to you, I'd suggest it still may be worthwhile for you to checkout the free library demo/trial. It's most of the actual library (the library demo is 4GB) -- so you'll get to hear and play the actual same samples without any treatment -- with the exception that the samples in the trial aren't looped and some other things. Personally, I'm not in love with the audio demos or, unsurprisingly, YouTube audio (which is generally the case) and some of the use of vibrato in the demos is not to my taste (which is a moot point, because the vibrato is user controllable; which is one of the great things about the library imo). If the Group Buy reaches its highest discount, which I think is extremely likely, you'll be able to pick up Spotlight Strings for around $150 USD.


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## Hanu_H (Dec 30, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Actually I was being on the look for solo strings for quite some time, and Prague Solo Strings came back to mind. They are on a christmas discount at $79 currently. Anyone able to compare these?
> Judging from the samples, Prague sounds better to me. However their hundredsomething Kontakt patches turn me off.


Yes to my ears it sounds also better and they are making a new version from it, with scripted legato and keyswitchable patches.

-Hannes


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## techeverlasting (Dec 30, 2013)

I've been buying sample libraries for years, and the biggest problem I've had is parting with a big wad of cash based on gorgeous well-produced demos, only to find that the library itself had all sorts of flaws in workmanship and execution. I have never once encountered a situation where mediocre-sounding demos were disguising a gem of a library. One situation that comes to mind was a double-reed library that had numerous heart-breakingly beautiful demos. Unfortunately the way the legato was initially implemented it was very difficult to get the thing to play back in time in a DAW. It was Piet who pointed this problem out. I think he might have been accused of being un-civil in those threads as well.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 31, 2013)

techeverlasting @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> I've been buying sample libraries for years, and the biggest problem I've had is parting with a big wad of cash based on gorgeous well-produced demos, only to find that the library itself had all sorts of flaws in workmanship and execution. I have never once encountered a situation where mediocre-sounding demos were disguising a gem of a library. One situation that comes to mind was a double-reed library that had numerous heart-breakingly beautiful demos. Unfortunately the way the legato was initially implemented it was very difficult to get the thing to play back in time in a DAW. It was Piet who pointed this problem out. I think he might have been accused of being un-civil in those threads as well.



+1, absolutely 

However, the Spotlight strings seem to be a case where very little time was spent to make the audio demos. I installed the trial and could get a fairly beautifully sounding violin out of it.
All the instruments have a really ill-fated EQ applied, or some strange micing that results in a prominent boxiness of the sound. Especially cello and viola sound ill to me. Sometimes though, this is less disturbing in a mix compared to a solo piece. Anyway, the demos were done with no special care for articulations whatsoever it seems. So the lib IS better than the audio demos in this case. You can get much more out of it, though the overall sound is not everbodys type. 
One more thing that I noticed: if you activate multiple players, it sounds like an electronic chorus/ensemble effect and NOT like 4 players playing.


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## mpalenik (Dec 31, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> However, the Spotlight strings seem to be a case where very little time was spent to make the audio demos. I installed the trial and could get a fairly beautifully sounding violin out of it.



If that's actually the case, would you mind posting a demo? I also really like the concept, but everything I've heard so far really makes me feel like downloading the trial version isn't even worth it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2013)

mpalenik @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> ProtectedRights @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > However, the Spotlight strings seem to be a case where very little time was spent to make the audio demos. I installed the trial and could get a fairly beautifully sounding violin out of it.
> ...



What's it going to cost you but a little of your time? Surely his time is as valuable as his yours, no?


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## KH (Dec 31, 2013)

I have not yet gone thru this thread, but I just wanted to make something clear. Any of the demos you hear are from literally plugging and playing. That's the point. I didn't ride the mod wheel or anything. I just used the basic default setting, and then "let 'er rip". Any degree of randomizing where vibrato and other features are concerned is quite possible and easy to do...whether it's intensity, speed, or fad-in. Some of the "crescendo" effects were actually intentional on my part. It's kind of what string players do on some types of music.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 31, 2013)

Hello Kirk,
I didn't think much of the sound when listening to the demo track and said so, however I was asked not to make such a judgement and go download the demo library. I think I've gone through the proper procedure in resaving the keys and sent them off to you but, that was more than 24 hours ago. 'just saying.........
-Ray


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## KH (Dec 31, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Hello Kirk,
> I didn't think much of the sound when listening to the demo track and said so, however I was asked not to make such a judgement and go download the demo library. I think I've gone through the proper procedure in resaving the keys and sent them off to you but, that was more than 24 hours ago. 'just saying.........
> -Ray



Hi Ray. I don't have them here. Where did you send them?

P.S. It's perfectly fine to have an opinion on demos. Demos are always done with certain personal "filters" in place, and rarely, with much efficiency IMO, truly show what a library's full strengths and weaknesses are. That's why I went to the trouble of making a full version demo....if that makes any sense.


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## wst3 (Dec 31, 2013)

KH @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> P.S. It's perfectly fine to have an opinion on demos. Demos are always done with certain personal "filters" in place, and rarely, with much efficiency IMO, truly show what a library's full strengths and weaknesses are. That's why I went to the trouble of making a full version demo....if that makes any sense.



And here is a sincere vote of appreciation for that full(ish) demo version.

I can understand why developers might be nervous about offering such a demo, and I applaud those that do. It is really the only way to evaluate a library (broken record mode on) and since music stores with demos are darned difficult to find these days (broken record mode off).

Sometimes developers swing for the fences, and provide demos that mere mortals are never going to reproduce in the first few tries. That can be a bit disappointing.

Sometimes they just play, and may not show the library in the best light. That can put people off.

And we all know that demos seldom tell us what we can do with a given library.

So thank you very much for providing the demo - I've had a blast with it, and tried to be the first to sign up for the group buy<G>!


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## KH (Dec 31, 2013)

wst3 @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> KH @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. It's perfectly fine to have an opinion on demos. Demos are always done with certain personal "filters" in place, and rarely, with much efficiency IMO, truly show what a library's full strengths and weaknesses are. That's why I went to the trouble of making a full version demo....if that makes any sense.
> ...



Exactly. Anyone can make the BEST libraries sound really bad. And many can make even a bad library sound good.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Dec 31, 2013)

Is there any auto divisi for the separate players? Concert strings 2 has this doesn't it?


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## KH (Dec 31, 2013)

Echoes in the Attic @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Is there any auto divisi for the separate players? Concert strings 2 has this doesn't it?



At this time, there is no auto divisi. But look for that in the future.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Dec 31, 2013)

KH @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Echoes in the Attic @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there any auto divisi for the separate players? Concert strings 2 has this doesn't it?
> ...



Nice. It would be great to have auto divisi of multiple soloists.


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## ptrickf (Jan 1, 2014)

wst3 @ Tue 31 Dec said:


> So thank you very much for providing the demo


 +1

It's the only way I can tell what I could do with it.

Cheers, P.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 1, 2014)

I have a pretty high CPU load even with dropouts when playing around live. Anyone having the same problem?


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## chibear (Jan 1, 2014)

Did you run the computer test Kirk posted on the website? I've got an i7 hexacore with 64GB of 1600 mhrz RAM and it only scored a 27 (24 being minimum recommended). I get a few artifacts now & then but that is usually when I am jumping quickly to different parts of the tune. My real-time bounces to wave are coming out clean.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 1, 2014)

Oops, I score 18 :-(

Thats bad!


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## mk282 (Jan 1, 2014)

I have just one question for Kirk. On his page for Spotlight Strings, he mentions:

"But sadly, there was just no convincing way to simulate a good string player's vibrato using Kontatk's LFO's back then. It was ok, but not good enough. Then came Kontakt 5. Native Instruments greatly enhanced their LFO structure, and it seemed, at least in theory, that there could be some possibilities."


This is entirely wrong. Kontakt 5 changed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING w.r.t. LFOs whatso-freaking-ever. LFOs are 100% identical to what they were in Kontakt 4, Kontakt 3 and Kontakt 2. The only difference was that modulator lag behaviour was changed in Kontakt 3 so that negative values retain Kontakt 2 behaviour, and positive values offer the new improved K3 behaviour. Anything else simply remained the same. So I'd like some clarification on this one, if possible - otherwise this is quite literally bullcrap talk.

Things K5 improved upon previous versions: instrument busses, better filters, some new effects, bigger GUI size for scripted performance views, new GUI elements in KSP, new commands in KSP. Absolutely nothing changed as far as LFOs are concerned.


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## hector (Jan 1, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Oops, I score 18 :-(
> 
> Thats bad!


i would say whohasthefastestcomputer is not so good as a test. for eg. on my windows machine the result is very different just running in two different browser (firefox scores 17 and 1.3gflops and internet explorer is 22 and 1.92). a benchmark that is not so consistent is also not so useful.

but the real problem, running a proper benchmark (linpack) i have avg 80+ gflops...


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## KH (Jan 1, 2014)

My mistake on the K versions. I just never really dug deep enough with the older versions to check, and so it seemed that, while using K5, the lfo structure had changed. Kind of an "aha" moment. Nevertheless, it was not "bullcrap", but an honest mistake. I changed the wording already on the Spotlight page.


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## germancomponist (Jan 1, 2014)

KH @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> My mistake on the K versions. I just never really dug deep enough with the older versions to check, and so it seemed that, while using K5, the lfo structure had changed. Kind of an "aha" moment.



This happened not only to you.


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## mk282 (Jan 1, 2014)

KH @ 1.1.2014 said:


> My mistake on the K versions. I just never really dug deep enough with the older versions to check, and so it seemed that, while using K5, the lfo structure had changed. Kind of an "aha" moment. Nevertheless, it was not "bullcrap", but an honest mistake. I changed the wording already on the Spotlight page.



Fair enough.


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## midi_controller (Jan 1, 2014)

hector @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> i would say whohasthefastestcomputer is not so good as a test. for eg. on my windows machine the result is very different just running in two different browser (firefox scores 17 and 1.3gflops and internet explorer is 22 and 1.92). a benchmark that is not so consistent is also not so useful.
> 
> but the real problem, running a proper benchmark (linpack) i have avg 80+ gflops...



Yup, that website is a joke. My 3930k scored 1.8 gflops, which is just laughably wrong. Gigaflops aren't a reliable measurement anyway, and the only people who really seem to care about them is extreme overclockers. I think it would be a better idea to do the same thing that every other product with system requirements has done since, like, forever: List the most basic processors, both AMD and Intel, that it will run on, and maybe throw in the ASIO buffer size it was tested on.

Seriously Kirk, you might be losing sales because of that.


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## KH (Jan 1, 2014)

I'll check that out.


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## mpalenik (Jan 1, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> What's it going to cost you but a little of your time? Surely his time is as valuable as his yours, no?



I don't know, is he also trying to finish writing a thesis?

But it's the difference between a 4GB download for something that I currently don't actually believe can sound good and then fiddling around with it to try to figure out how to make it sound a way that someone claims it can sound, or him uploading a 1 mb file to prove me and a lot of other people wrong. I'm not asking him to write a special piece of music for me.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 1, 2014)

Kirk, does that realization about the LFOs not requiring KONTAKT 5 mean that Spotlight Strings could work with earlier versions of KONTAKT than 5? 
(I'm not asking for me, I have KONTAKT 5, but curious for others who have earlier versions.)


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 1, 2014)

Ok so here is something:

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33470365/SpotlightStringsDemo.mp3 (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3347 ... gsDemo.mp3)

Actually I am not really happy with it, but at least I somewhat like the overall sound.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 1, 2014)

mpalenik @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > What's it going to cost you but a little of your time? Surely his time is as valuable as his yours, no?
> ...



To make a piece with almost any library that "sounds good" requires a fair amount of effort and rarely accomplishes that purpose anyway, as tastes are so divergent.

If you are too busy writing a thesis to test it out, oh well, you probably don't need it that badly anyway, right?


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 1, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> To make a piece with almost any library that "sounds good" requires a fair amount of effort



That's absolutely true, especially for solo instruments.

But hey, I remember those SampleModelling videos where some guy plays an unbelievably realistic clarinet only with modwheel.

So, lets say it is a lot of work usually but it also depends on how much "intelligence" the library has built in.


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## KH (Jan 1, 2014)

eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Kirk, does that realization about the LFOs not requiring KONTAKT 5 mean that Spotlight Strings could work with earlier versions of KONTAKT than 5?
> (I'm not asking for me, I have KONTAKT 5, but curious for others who have earlier versions.)



No, because there are a few new scripting commands that I needed to use that are not in K4. Also, I needed the larger GUI.

Additionally, at least when I coded, K4 would not accept all of the lines of code...meaning it SEEMS that K5 allows larger script sizes.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 2, 2014)

midi_controller @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> hector @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > i would say whohasthefastestcomputer is not so good as a test. for eg. on my windows machine the result is very different just running in two different browser (firefox scores 17 and 1.3gflops and internet explorer is 22 and 1.92). a benchmark that is not so consistent is also not so useful.
> ...



Yep, I'm done with CPU intensive stuff. To me the futre of sample developing should be the opposite.


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## midi_controller (Jan 2, 2014)

kitekrazy @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> Yep, I'm done with CPU intensive stuff. To me the futre of sample developing should be the opposite.



I think it's less a problem with Kirk's library and more a problem with that website, since it gives wildly inaccurate results. Unless Spotlight Strings have insane polyphony counts or really inefficient scripting, I'm sure most people will be able to run the library without a problem. You can always download the demo and try it out.

Speaking of which, major props to Kirk Hunter and team for providing a demo like this. I really hope more developers follow in your example.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 2, 2014)

Well, although I do hope to give this library a fair hearing after having downloaded the trial unfortunately it seems I can't because following sending my saved and registered nki keys to kirkhunterstudios at gmail dot com three times, still no reply.

It's not a life or death issue though  
'just saying and not trying to start a war.


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## KH (Jan 2, 2014)

PMs were sent asking for email confirmation. As of yet, no email has been received.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 2, 2014)

Okay Kirk,
I'll use my gmail account and see if that works.


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## KH (Jan 2, 2014)

Yup. That worked perfectly. You might want to check settings on your transmission end before claiming problems on the receiving end...especially when I tried multiple times via PM to help out. You'll get your instruments soon.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 2, 2014)

Apologies for that Kirk,
My wife's been using our service providers email regularly today with no problems. I will definitely have to investigate why this apparently has been going wrong for days.
It hasn't stopped me buying things elsewhere :(
I look forward to the trial.
-Ray


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## KH (Jan 2, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Thu Jan 02 said:


> Apologies for that Kirk,
> My wife's been using our service providers email regularly today with no problems. I will definitely have to investigate why this apparently has been going wrong for days.
> It hasn't stopped me buying things elsewhere :(
> I look forward to the trial.
> -Ray



No worries. Just glad it finally went through.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 3, 2014)

Kirk asked me to post something using the Spotlight String library demo so here it is.
I could have done a lot more tweaking without the time restriction but it is enough to get an idea of how they sound.
The midi file is something I did around 20 years ago probably triggering a Roland Sound Module. I did many midi backing tracks at that time initially for my own use but many were marketed and pirated all over the world.
Please excuse the bum notes as everything was done by dodgy ear.
https://soundcloud.com/thecourt/string- ... -spotlight

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F127675044&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## re-peat (Jan 3, 2014)

Forgive me, Ray, you know I respect you and I love you and I want to marry you and have many sweet moments of gentle and stimulating togetherness with you by a Stirling fireside, but when I listen to these new examples ― not just yours ―, the idea that, maybe, I might not have been quite as negative, rude and vitriolic as I should have been in the earlier stages of this thread, does grab a firm hold of me.
I wil refrain however from burdening Hannes with the extra work of soon having to edit out some more of my rural language and metaphors again, so for now, a simple “this sounds very, very, very bad” will have to do. And I am wrong in thinking that there’s a part of you that agrees?


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## AC986 (Jan 3, 2014)

....


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

Those of us who wish to learn, grow and address would appreciate tips, pointers, suggestions, constructivism, etc, rather than broad-brushed opinions. If time is spent posting such an opinion, then it would certainly benefit the forum should those who opine offer specifics. If not, then what's the use of jumping in?


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## AC986 (Jan 3, 2014)

......


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> KH @ Fri Jan 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Those of us who wish to learn, grow and address would appreciate tips, pointers, suggestions, constructivism, etc, rather than broad-brushed opinions. If time is spent posting such an opinion, then it would certainly benefit the forum should those who opine offer specifics. If not, then what's the use of jumping in?
> ...



Don't get me wrong. I don't mind opinions...it's a free forum...(Or I thought it was). Assuming the forum's main goal is for learning, then when someone says something "sounds" bad, that they could at least use their acumen to describe why. "Too thin", "too muddy", "bad attacks", "bad releases", "too much verb", "too dry", etc. Sometimes, it's in the way something was composed/sequenced, and other times, its in the library.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 3, 2014)

For me, the biggest issue with the sound is some boxyness / phase thing. Like if you record an instrument directly in front of a reflecting wall. Or record it with two mics and don't take care of phase alignment. That makes this strange comb filter like sound that I have the feeling is present in the sound of the strings. I could be wrong but that is my gut feeling.

Edit: and as I mentioned some time ago, the EQing is not really doing the strings well.


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> For me, the biggest issue with the sound is some boxyness / phase thing. Like if you record an instrument directly in front of a reflecting wall. Or record it with two mics and don't take care of phase alignment. That makes this strange comb filter like sound that I have the feeling is present in the sound of the strings. I could be wrong but that is my gut feeling.



Now, THAT's constructive. I'll reserach it.


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## mojamusic (Jan 3, 2014)

re-peat @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> Forgive me, Ray, you know I respect you and I love you and I want to marry you and have many sweet moments of gentle and stimulating togetherness with you by a Stirling fireside, but when I listen to these new examples ― not just yours ―, the idea that, maybe, I might not have been quite as negative, rude and vitriolic as I should have been in the earlier stages of this thread, does grab a firm hold of me.
> I wil refrain however from burdening Hannes with the extra work of soon having to edit out some more of my rural language and metaphors again, so for now, a simple “this sounds very, very, very bad” will have to do. And I am wrong in thinking that there’s a part of you that agrees?



Too much! I'm dying over here ROTFL :lol:


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## rayinstirling (Jan 3, 2014)

re-peat @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> Forgive me, Ray, you know I respect you and I love you and I want to marry you and have many sweet moments of gentle and stimulating togetherness with you by a Stirling fireside, but when I listen to these new examples ― not just yours ―, the idea that, maybe, I might not have been quite as negative, rude and vitriolic as I should have been in the earlier stages of this thread, does grab a firm hold of me.
> I wil refrain however from burdening Hannes with the extra work of soon having to edit out some more of my rural language and metaphors again, so for now, a simple “this sounds very, very, very bad” will have to do. And I am wrong in thinking that there’s a part of you that agrees?



Piet, you lovely man you, and so mellow,
In using the timing out demo here, I really could do no more than quickly tweak here and there from my original midi file (a midi file can NOT be used to compare different libraries without MAJOR changes in nearly every control). Sorry Piet, I know you know that but seemingly many others don't). I had to reload the project a few times to get to the point of recording. Therefore I used mainly detache articulation and minimum room size on the reverb. No other EQ.
I knew it would be a poisoned chalice presenting this here. A lose lose situation but I promised I would and I have. Dissect away while me and my wife sit by the fire enjoying a lovely evening with friends.

To everyone else, like it or lump it.
Unlike a few others here, I can live with, and laugh at, anything thrown at me (written).
Happy New Year all, I'm off to make sure the wine is up to room temperature and breathing. 

-Ray


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## Sid Francis (Jan 3, 2014)

Piet: see? NOW we are talking! :D :D very funny indeed. And much easier to accept than your previous postings. And yes, I have to partly agree..

to Kirk: 
I downloaded and tested. everything went fine. Very many possibilities in the program, yes, every lib should have these: great. The big "but": The sound itself... :( 
I also agree: the biggest issue seems this boxiness and phasing. I thought that I would have a hard time to reproduce that in a recording but a very short flanging delay (VERY short) comes to mind. Are there several layers that might interfere? It is mainly in the celli which seem the weakest part of it. It really does not sound like a cello at all for me. There is no "majesty", "grandeur" in the samples, that deep soul that a cello has. The sound is very shallow and boxy and..."phasing".
The violas are better but just did not sound like violas to me but more like some "other kind of violin". I would use them here and there to add a solo player in a group, but definitly not for emulating a viola. Adding more players also does not improve the sound but just gives more "phasing".
The worst part: I really like the violins :D They may not be the most realistic violins in the world, but they are very responsive, playable, the vibrato works for me and my heart (vibrato-junkies we are :mrgreen: ) and if there were a way to just buy the violins I would immediately. Unfortunately for me they are not worth the price of the whole library, group buy or not. I thought several times "Kirk Hunter is a violinist and therefore he probably knows the sound of a violin well and achieved a better sound with them" But I also knew that you cannot be a cellist 8) Even Blakus with his RODE mics in his sleeping room achieved a more convincing cello sound ( though I don´t like his cello either, yes, I know, I am alone with this in the world :? )
I hope, these impressions can be of help somehow for you. Oh, and a last note: there are some bumps in the legatos of the celli, in all of them, at least in the demo version but I think this is solvable by simply adjusting the transition levels. maybe already solved in the full program.

Have a good time


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks Sid.

Again, something to chew on. I'll go back and see about this "phasing" thing. Regarding the vibrato, I am going to be tweaking that, especially for the violin. Also, when more than 1 player is active, they do tend to sometimes phase a tiny bit due to vibrato similarities, and sample start points. That's been fixed in the full version, and I'm likely to do even more. Trouble is, that ever since I upgraded to Mavericks, Kontakt is unusable for programming. So until I setup a new windows system, I'll be slow on the uptake on this.


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

P.S. I can make individual instruments available. Just let me know if this is really of interest, and I'll see about doing it.


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

For your consideration:

Here's a TINY 1-octave (lowest octave of the violin) solo violin. Only the VERY slowest articulation, and only 1 sample per note, no RR, etc. No frills. Just want to see if you're still hearing this "phasing" or "boxy" thing going on. Tried a different mic, etc.

http://spotlightdemos.s3.amazonaws.com/magsVib.zip


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## Sid Francis (Jan 3, 2014)

*A difference like day and night! Much more natural sound! * There was/is definitly something going very very wrong inside the Kontakt demo ( and the actual full program considering the user demos). Kontakt 5.3 here on PC Win7764, Cubase 7/64 

Since the effect is mucher stronger in the celli: if it is not too much work ( I can´t imagine how easy it is) : can you do the same with the celli, player wolfgang? Perhaps all the body of the cello is vanishing in the phasing (might easily be)

It´s late here in Germany, so I am off now. See you tomorrow... :D


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## mpalenik (Jan 3, 2014)

I was trying to scroll though this thread on my phone and apparently hit report on one of the posts. Could the moss please ignore any instance of report that they got from me?


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## mpalenik (Jan 3, 2014)

I think this was the post I accidentally reported, so first of all, sorry about that.



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> mpalenik @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:
> ...


It was my understanding that he had already managed to produce somethingthat was substantially better sounding than the demos. But you're right, politely asking him to post it was absurd. I'd say I should be shot, but that's probably too good for me.



> If you are too busy writing a thesis to test it out, oh well, you probably don't need it that badly anyway, right?



Need? Not at all. Between running calculations, writing my thesis, helping write proposals for fundin, looking for postdocs, and teaching, i'm busy enough, but sometimes it's fun to get a new toy to keep you from going insane, and the price is not bad during the group buy, so better to buy now than wait. Unfortunately, nothing I've heard so far has been convincing.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 3, 2014)

KH @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> For your consideration:
> 
> Here's a TINY 1-octave (lowest octave of the violin) solo violin. Only the VERY slowest articulation, and only 1 sample per note, no RR, etc. No frills. Just want to see if you're still hearing this "phasing" or "boxy" thing going on. Tried a different mic, etc.
> 
> http://spotlightdemos.s3.amazonaws.com/magsVib.zip



THIS sounds natural and very lovely!!! Compare this and the "full" Spotlight violin and you immediately hear the "box" being drawn over the violin 

So in other words, no phase alignment issue / boxy sound here. If you manage all of Spotlight Strings to sound like this, I jump into the group buy immediately!


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2014)

Kontakt 5.3 is buggy in other things as well... . I never have had trouble with an earlier version.... .


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 3, 2014)

To be honest, I don't believe it is a Kontakt bug. The boxy sound is also present in Concert Strings II (which I used with Kontakt 5.2 already), though to a less extent. So I guess it must be something in the programming / layering of mics?


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> To be honest, I don't believe it is a Kontakt bug. The boxy sound is also present in Concert Strings II (which I used with Kontakt 5.2 already), though to a less extent. So I guess it must be something in the programming / layering of mics?



A question to Kirk... .


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> To be honest, I don't believe it is a Kontakt bug. The boxy sound is also present in Concert Strings II (which I used with Kontakt 5.2 already), though to a less extent. So I guess it must be something in the programming / layering of mics?



It's not K5.3 (although it's FORCING me to get a windows machine with it's Konstant Krashing in Mavericks). It's the mic...at least with Spotlight. Don't worry. I'm going to be addressing this first with the violins and then the violas. Gotta get back to Robert Cauer's for the awesome cellos he lets me use. But trust me when I say that I am dedicated to working with you as long as the critiques are constructive.


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2014)

KH @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> ProtectedRights @ Fri Jan 03 said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, I don't believe it is a Kontakt bug. The boxy sound is also present in Concert Strings II (which I used with Kontakt 5.2 already), though to a less extent. So I guess it must be something in the programming / layering of mics?
> ...



What a great post from you, Kirk! Respect!


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 3, 2014)

If you look at the whole story, it's really terrific how things turned out. First re-peat heated up this thread by very explicitly sharing his opinion, which in turn made eDrummist get Kirk to join the forum, and now the community works together, dev and customers, to improve things. Ain't this awesome? Win-win I would say, that's what the forum is meant to be


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> If you look at the whole story, it's really terrific how things turned out. First re-peat heated up this thread by very explicitly sharing his opinion, which in turn made eDrummist get Kirk to join the forum, and now the community works together, dev and customers, to improve things. Ain't this awesome? Win-win I would say, that's what the forum is meant to be



I know some people here don't like my "+1" posts, but I will do it again here:

*+1* o-[][]-o


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 3, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> If you look at the whole story, it's really terrific how things turned out. First re-peat heated up this thread by very explicitly sharing his opinion, which in turn made eDrummist get Kirk to join the forum, and now the community works together, dev and customers, to improve things. Ain't this awesome? Win-win I would say, that's what the forum is meant to be



Thanks ProtectedRights. I agree completely with you about how things have turned out in the past couple of pages of this thread and hope it continues. People are communicating with each other, no one is holding back legitimate criticism and it's being seriously addressed. 

The posts in this thread in the last couple of pages has proven that sample users can express sincere, strong legitimate criticisms (as opposed to inarticulate cheap shots) in an atmosphere of mutual respect between fellow community members (sample users) and between sample users and developers and that such an environment is incredibly more conducive to mutual understanding, progress and specifically, to achieving sample library improvements than an atmosphere of hostility and disrespect filled with personal and professional insults and attacks. I hope it will serve as a model and make a compelling case to both community members who believe that civility doesn't matter and developers who seek to censor negative criticisms, which I believe, would ruin a critical part of the value a of a healthy forum. I also can't help but note the humility Kirk has exhibited in this thread when responding to criticism juxtaposed with the some of the behavior exhibited on earlier pages of this thread.


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## KH (Jan 3, 2014)

Ok, after much deliberation and study, I've come to a conclusion. This is regarding using LFO to emulate string vibrato. While I think doing this can sound "ok" and even "good" in some areas, I'm not sure if having such great control over the parameters (vib intensity, vib speed, vib fade) is worth the trade off. Simply put, it seems (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) that recording a really good non-vibrato sample, and then implementing an lfo scheme (even a GOOD one) always yields a "phasing" effect on some notes. At first, I thought this to be acceptable because to my ears, I hear this in other well-respected solo string libraries as well. (Proof gladly offered.) But after more urging by folks like you, I have come to the conclusion that some notes will always have this "phasing" or "boxy" sound using lfo. Now the question becomes...."Create a bigger, yet less controllable (where vibrato parameters are concerned) solo set, or continue pursuing the lfo scheme?"

Opinions?


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## Sid Francis (Jan 3, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Fri 03 Jan said:


> To be honest, I don't believe it is a Kontakt bug. The boxy sound is also present in Concert Strings II (which I used with Kontakt 5.2 already), though to a less extent. So I guess it must be something in the programming / layering of mics?



Yes, indeed, I also own them and this was one of my complaints earlier. Some patches suffer from it more than others but it´s always present...


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## mk282 (Jan 4, 2014)

KH @ 4.1.2014 said:


> Now the question becomes...."Create a bigger, yet less controllable (where vibrato parameters are concerned) solo set, or continue pursuing the lfo scheme?"
> 
> Opinions?



You would get even more phasing if you had nonvib and vib samples and crossfaded between them without phase aligning them beforehand...


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 4, 2014)

KH @ Fri Jan 03 said:


> Ok, after much deliberation and study, I've come to a conclusion. This is regarding using LFO to emulate string vibrato. While I think doing this can sound "ok" and even "good" in some areas, I'm not sure if having such great control over the parameters (vib intensity, vib speed, vib fade) is worth the trade off. Simply put, it seems (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) that recording a really good non-vibrato sample, and then implementing an lfo scheme (even a GOOD one) always yields a "phasing" effect on some notes. At first, I thought this to be acceptable because to my ears, I hear this in other well-respected solo string libraries as well. (Proof gladly offered.) But after more urging by folks like you, I have come to the conclusion that some notes will always have this "phasing" or "boxy" sound using lfo. Now the question becomes...."Create a bigger, yet less controllable (where vibrato parameters are concerned) solo set, or continue pursuing the lfo scheme?"
> 
> Opinions?



So the vibrato in that magsVib2 example is a real recorded vibrato instead of an lfo vibrato? While I very much like the realtime control over the vibrato in SSS, concerning sound magsVib2 wins by orders of magnitude, and sound is most important. 

But if, as mk282 says, with faded vibrato layers you would run into the same phase issues, than nothing would be won. :?


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## wst3 (Jan 4, 2014)

man-oh-man, I thought I was losing my mind!

I do not use a lot of vibrato in either CS2 or Spotlight, so that may be why I'm not getting that same boxy sound. Maybe, I'll check shortly.

In the meantime, is it possible that when one is using the LFO to create vibrato one becomes somewhat less sensitive to artifacts because, well, because you are the one controlling the mod wheel? That would also explain why demos are more of a problem...

So since you asked, my vote would be focus on sound, even if it means leaving some of the very cool programming tricks out... for now. Once the library is released then you can go back and slay the phase-y, boxy dragon and release (hopefully) just an update to the scripting.

One of the things that I most like about CS2 (and now Spotlight) is the control. Selecting sections and articulations and effects is so easy. So I'd hate to see you leave that behind.

And I still like the basic sound of both libraries. Now it's time to investigate the LFO and Vibrato to see if I can more reliably create the problem described here.


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## KH (Jan 4, 2014)

So after a lot of recording and experimenting, here is my analysis about vibrato: 

When a string player uses vibrato, it actually DECREASES the natural "phasing" that happens when a non-vibrato note is played, and adds tonal variety. The reason for this phasing is multi-faceted. 

Phasing from tone vs. resonance:
When the bow is drawn across the string, it literally "grabs" the string, releases it, and then grabs it again, forcing the string to vibrate at a certain pitch (which is governed by string length and string width). The tone of this vibration, coupled with the tone created by the resonating chamber of the actual body of the instrument can sometimes cancel each other out a bit, which gets a "phasy" sound sometimes. (Ask me what "wolf" note is sometime!) 

Phasing from sympathetic vibrations:
It can happen on notes that engage a lot of sympathetic vibrations. Interestingly however, there are notes that actually benefit from sympathetic vibrations. (Check out Viola d'Amore, etc.)

Phasing from overtones:
Sometimes, the overtone series of a certain note, especially coupled with the particular body of the instrument, can give you a "phasy" sound when no vibrato is used.

Using Vibrato
So when a player uses vibrato:

Tone vs. resonance:
It interrupts the phasing...the string doesn't get quite enough time to "phase" due to the fact that the fundamental pitch of the note rapidly changes throughout the range of the player's vibrato width which defeats the "cancelling out" effect produced by the resonating chamber of the instrument.

Sympathetic vibration:
Additionally, any undesirable sympathetic vibrations caused by the static fundamental (when using no vibrato), are cancelled out when the pitch leaves that range during the vibrato. 

Tonal enrichment:
And even more...the instrument's body will "pulse" because it reacts differently to different pitches that are produced during the vibrato, thereby further interrupting the phasing and adding a "richness" not heard in the non-vibrato note. 

Additional physical enhancement:
And if you want me to REALLY go anal, we can talk about the physics of how the "fleshiness" of the player's finger on the string changes through the motion of the vibrato, thereby adding even more harmonic character to the note. 

So the problem with lfo-generated vibrato is also multi-faceted. 

Tone vs. resonance:
If the non-vibrato note contained any phasing due to the “canceling out” effect (when the tone itself “collides” with the tone produced by the instrument’s resonating chamber), the lfo simply cannot remove the effect. The lfo will act upon the entire tone, not just part of it. In fact, the lfo will AMPLIFY the “phasyness” because now, the phasing occurs in all areas of the lfo’s parameters whether pitch or amplitude.

Sympathetic vibration:
If the original note has a lot of sympathetic vibration, then the lfo acts on them in tandem with the fundamental pitch, and again, can actually ENHANCE the phasing effect. Remember, the lfo can’t act on JUST the fundamental pitch, but acts on the entire tone. Yes, you can mitigate this somewhat by using lfos as a modulators to only certain frequencies in filters and similar clever mechanisms. But even then, it’s still moving the whole tone.

Tonal enrichment:
To some degree, tonal enrichment can be achieved, but still has limitations. Once the “enrichment” happens, while it may sound good on some notes, will sound bad on others. This is again because even during the enrichment, it is either masking a negative effect, or amplifying a positive one. But it’s never RIDDING the negative effect completely.

Conclusion
I personally believe that some more effort can and should be made by some of the samples in Spotlight Strings. But no matter what, there will still be a degree of the issues described above. That said, I am seriously considering adding some instruments (either a completely new library, or an add-on to Spotlight) that have all of the features of Spotlight Strings, minus the vibrato control. I think the particular sound of a REALLY well-executed natural vibrato is something that cannot be replicated via lfo, etc. I mean, it might sound good, or acceptable, and can be a tradeoff where control is concerned; but as thrilling…nope.
And finally, here is a link to another “test”. It’s the exact same recording technique that was favorably reviewed in my previous link which featured real vibrato notes. But it uses non-vibrato notes. Again, only the lowest octave, no frills, etc. It also times out after 5 minutes.
http://spotlightdemos.s3.amazonaws.com/mags_nv.zip
And if any of you differ from my thesis here, believing that synthetic vibrato does not “phase” or produce undesirable results, then show me.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 4, 2014)

All the technicalities involved bring me back to where I was on page one of this discussion. The simple choice of like the sound or dislike the sound. That's it, I don't need to workout what needs to be done if I don't. I said the same about the embertone violin. I don't expect to influence anyone else.


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## KH (Jan 4, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Sat Jan 04 said:


> I said the same about the embertone violin.



Indeed


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 4, 2014)

In the end, it all comes down to personal preference and specifically, the shortcomings of using sample libraries to simulate acoustic instruments. 

I realize that devs don't always seem to appreciate them, and they're not always perfectly fair, but I love well done library shootouts, particularly when I'm researching libraries. Especially when it's just some simple passages with nothing but one single library by itself then another. I'm not sure if its still maintained, but I've spent A LOT of time with the old piano shootout page back in the day. It was probably responsible for my purchase a bunch of SampleTekk and other piano libraries (ftr, I have no affiliation with SampleTekk beyond having purchased a lot of their libraries over several years). 

Is anyone who has Spotlight Strings or the demo version and another dev's library that also uses lfo's for vibrato game to do a quick side by side comparison so we can have a better idea of what is being discussed? @rayinstirling you mentioned Embertone, but I don't recall your original post and whether you're saying that you like or don't like that library. But if you own it, can you do a quick audio comparison of each -- say, just holding a series of single notes using vibrato, so that we can hear this effect we're all discussing in various libraries and compare them? I know I'd find it much more useful and less theoretical/academic then just words on a page and I'm certain others would also appreciate it.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 4, 2014)

Though its tone is admittedly unsympathetic and it's a beast to use, the most natural non-vibrato to vibrato violin sound I've heard is the Garritan Strad.Dunno if it's LFO, the fact that it's modeled or what, but the transition sounds smooth.


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## germancomponist (Jan 4, 2014)

I very often do vibrato via the pitch wheel.... .


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## wst3 (Jan 5, 2014)

I think you are onto something Kirk... I spent some time playing long notes from the demo version of Spotlight, and messing with various controls.

The fact that the "phase shift" effect is dynamic suggests that it has nothing to do with the recordings - which is good news for all of us!

So is it the result of processing within Kontakt, or are these REALLY accurate recordings, and the effect is the result of playing the violin?

A machine might be able to draw a bow across a string with no variation in pressure, but I do not think any human can, and that's part of what differentiates a good player from a great player, the great player will constantly adjust the pressure (and the vibrato, and even the neck hand pressure) to create a more emotional performance.

I remember, from a hundred years ago, trying to shift from a violin ensemble to a solo instrument on a large modular synthesizer. While the ensemble we created would pale compared to any modern sample library (heck even the 'modern' instruments from the days of the S900 and EPS), we were pleased with it. We created a chorus effect by dynamically delaying one or more oscillators, and it worked - for an electronic orchestra, in the mid 1970s.

When trying to create a solo instrument we failed miserably, we simply could not vary enough parameters to emulate what a real player with a real instrument.

There are hundreds of variables. Sampling addresses some of that, but they still lack a level of dynamic change that happens in real life.

Returning to the present, and reality<G>, I still like the Spotlight Strings. I am probably using them differently than others, because I do not end up with the same phase-y effect, or at least it is not as pronounced.

More listening and experimenting is in order, but I think you have identified many (most) of the issues.


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## chibear (Jan 5, 2014)

Hey Kirk,

I'm not versed in the programming aspect of VSTs, just a user, and as you know a newer one at that. Right now I'm building an orchestra that I can present to a real orchestra as a mockup without too much embarrassment. What I'm looking at for solo strings that I can easily program vibrato and has a usable portamento, plus a very good sustained legato. 

I've played quite a bit with the vibrato settings in SSS and they work, specifically when going from non-vibrato to vibrato and visa versa there isn't that large shift in timbre when the mod wheel is engaged. I tried it on my CS2 demo and the shift is much more pronounced. IMO EWQLSO is unusable in that area.

For that I am willing to give up a bit of tone quality. Occasionally some of my former colleagues who know what I'm up to want to hear my progress. I have yet to have a comment for any library from string player saying, oh that really sounds awful, not like a real violin, cello, etc., BUT at the same times people have complained about the vibrato from other libraries. There I get the comment "That vibrato is awful. Can't you do something to control that?" (They haven't heard SSS yet)

SO I vote keep the vibrato controls. You mentioned earlier about using s different mic. Of course ya!, but keep these samples too.


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## KH (Jan 5, 2014)

All these comments are very helpful. 

So here's the SIMPLE conclusion about SSS vibrato:
The more vibrato you use, the more you'll hear the phasing effect on SOME notes. Again, this makes the naturally-occurring phase effect that is present in non-vibrato playing more noticeable. And additionally, cannot add what a human being does (when they play with vibrato) in a natural-sounding way...(Although digital trickery can EMULATE that).

Where Spotlight is concerned, I will definitely keep the vibrato controls the way they are. I may address some of the recordings, however.
Additionally, I may either include, or make a new library altogether that uses natural vibrato, and keep all of the features of Spotlight with different kinds of vibrato control.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 5, 2014)

There's also a library demo for Concert Brass 2, a library I think is well worth checking out. I'd be interested in others thoughts on it: 
http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/signup_free_cb2_demo.php (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/signup ... 2_demo.php)


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## chibear (Jan 5, 2014)

I picked it up a couple of days ago and have been playing with it on & off (Don't worry I won[t foist another demo on you all). Needless to say I like it. I had been waiting for a group buy or sale to pick CB2 up with SSS or CS2 (harder decision).

All the instruments play well, but the horns & trombones and particularly solo horn were my main focus. Kirk's handling of legato and a programeable portamento make for a very fliexible solo horn that I can phrase easlily. The trombones are actually in tune for the most part and the tuba is excellent also and in the upper registers gives a fairly good approximation of the mid register of Wagner tubens. 

The color of the horns is different from most other libraries, a bit brighter and more centered. A majority of libraries, from the sound, appear to be recorded with Conn 8d's (Nickel silver) whereas Kirk's sound more like brass instruments (like Geyer or Alexander). IMO 8Ds sound fabulous(especially in big and epic work) but are pretty much monochromatic...not a good Mozart or Bach instrument, whereas brass horns center better so are more suited to classical and baroque work as well as anything that demands a light touch. Not saying they don't sound good played big (Think Chicago Symphony), just different.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 5, 2014)

@chibear I'd be delighted for you to "foist" another demo on us. 

And I enjoy any references to my hometown's symphony orchestra, no matter how small the reference! Especially right now, with our city's worst weather in two decades, I need to remind myself of all the great things this city has to offer (otherwise I'd be looking at California real estate!).


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## chibear (Jan 5, 2014)

Ha! My home town too. South Side boy. I moved North because Chicago was too hot. It still is compared to what we have up here. Today the North Pole was warmer. The other day the surface of Mars was warmer :roll:


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 5, 2014)

@ChiBear I grew up on the South side! Small world! I saw the Canadian flag and never would have guessed! I'd much rather be in Vancouver than here right now (it's expected to reach -50 degrees Fahrenheit tomorrow)! One of my favorite places in the world. Well, at least most of Canada is pretty.


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## brunodegazio (Jan 6, 2014)

*Spotlight Strings - individual instruments?*

Hi Kirk - In an earlier post I believe you mentioned that you might be willing to offer individual spotlight instruments for sale. 

Just would like to let you know I'd be interested in the Violas. 

BTW, there is an odd bug in the Violas when using the Sordino. After a single use the effect cannot be undone. Repeated clicks leave the sordino effect applied and the only way to return to the natural sound is by restarting the Host app. This is with Kontakt 5.3 on Mavericks.

Another question: I would like to add an instrument script to convert program changes to Keyswitches in the Spotlight Violas. Is that possible or would it trigger the copy protection? 

thanks


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## KH (Jan 6, 2014)

*Re: Spotlight Strings - individual instruments?*



brunodegazio @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Hi Kirk - In an earlier post I believe you mentioned that you might be willing to offer individual spotlight instruments for sale.
> 
> Just would like to let you know I'd be interested in the Violas.
> 
> ...



Indeed I will be offering individual instruments, but after the GB sale is over.

I do not see any reason why there should be any issues with creating your conversion.

I'll look into the sordini issue.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 6, 2014)

I'd suggest anyone interested in Spotlight Strings violas, violins, cellos or double bass that during the Group Buy you can pick up the entire library for as little as $150 USD. I don't know what the violas alone might be priced at in the future, but I'm guessing it won't be any less than $100 USD. During the GB, you can get the entire library for only $50 USD more than that.


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## KH (Jan 7, 2014)

So here is the final verdict:

Spotlight Strings will be released as is, but with the following:
- A free updated add-on with new recordings so that the user can choose.
- Improved programming that makes thicker vibrato and more "randomized" vibrato possible.
- Improved programming that creates more randomizing where individual start time is concerned when using more than 1 player at a time.
-existing viola and cello patches will have a "richer" and "bigger" sound.

Again, all of these improvements and add-ons will be FREE accompanying the existing library.


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## KH (Jan 10, 2014)

So aside here's a test instrument of just the lowest octave. I personally prefer aspects of the original, (less bow noise, etc) but am addressing the "phasing" and/or "boxy" thing that some remark about.

http://spotlightdemos.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... UMENTS.zip


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## Vardaro (Sep 19, 2014)

Vibrato.

Kirk has explained very well the problems with LFO vibrato: the way the LFO modulates too many parameters at once.

Before SSS appeared I was thinking of trying to script LFO vibrato into the non-vib samples of Xsamples solo strings (my favorites, tone-wise, by the way, with a gorgeous viola). I also like SSS because I often want a milder vibrato than the usual baked-in sort.

What I don't hear is the way real vibrato modulates the timbre as well as the pitch: when my fingertip rolls back, the softer part of my fingertip and the momentarily reduced pressure makes a duller tone. Maybe LFO filtering would achieve this, as well as masking the phasing-like effects discussed above.

Lastly, I wonder what are the best waveforms for the Pitch and filter LFOs: not necessirily sine waves, and not necessarily the same.

Hope this makes sense. (Perhaps even Mr Re-Peat could make some similarly detailed suggestions?!!)


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## Sid Francis (Sep 19, 2014)

I think that some developers have noticed that and implement frequency LFO in artificial vibrato sounds. For example the latest Chris Hein Woodwinds make use of this and even programmable.
Since the Xchamber strings are also my favorites tonewise: Have you been sucessful with your programming? Or have you tried SIPS script for legato effect? I would be very interested in the result. (Also fan of the viola  )


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## Vardaro (Sep 20, 2014)

Another aspect I miss is the fact of passing the vibrato from one slurred note to the next in expressive solos, rather than starting it afresh on each note. I imagine this would be impossible to script: it would hav to be done in the DAW.

Tone? In SSS it seems to me that Kirk has taken a mid-distance perspective, but with little ambient natural reverb. Thi can surprise thos used to either a close, grainy sound (to be set into a synthetic "space") or on the other hand a more Holywood-ish soup. (One can guess my preferences...)

Diplomas? Yes, I am an experienced orchestral and chamber player who thinks he knows everything!


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## Vardaro (Sep 25, 2014)

It would also be helpful if re-peat could concentrate and define *exactly* what he doesn't quite like in Spotlight, or other KH libraries: choice of mike positions, choice of mikes, choice of sources, ambient acoustics, quality of conversion, consistency of samples etc etc.

As a classical player and teacher, with close-up perspectives, I find Kirk's sounds very convincing, even if I also appreciate e.g. Xsample and Dan Dean solo libraries.


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## chibear (Sep 25, 2014)

Vardaro @ Sat Sep 20 said:


> Another aspect I miss is the fact of passing the vibrato from one slurred note to the next in expressive solos, rather than starting it afresh on each note. I imagine this would be impossible to script: it would hav to be done in the DAW.



Have you tried turning off all the CC1 and velocity dots and setting vib fade-in time to 0? I know it's not a perfect solution but then with varying 'intensity' through the phrase I think it comes pretty clos

Edit: That's using 'legato' bowing with the "Legato" setting on the right (Not True Legato). Also there is something that disturbs vibrato if you 'slur on overlap' so that has to be handled differently.


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## Vardaro (Jan 5, 2016)

I suppose the trouble with LFO on recorded samples is that one is modulating not just the pitch of the string , but also all the formants and resonances of the violin itself. On a real violin, the pitch is modulated _within _these resonances.

I shall try to slow down some solo violin recordings to better hear what vibrato really does: I am sure the accompanying modulation of sound level and timbre is insufficiently imitated.

One of the giveaways on VI vibrato, whether baked-in or LFOed, is the tiresome "bulge" on each and every note.
My own vibrato is usually continuous, ranging from gentle to intense. (Provided I haven't spent the weekend sawing wood or bricklaying..)


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## Vardaro (Jan 9, 2016)

chibear said:


> Have you tried turning off all the CC1 and velocity dots and setting vib fade-in time to 0? I know it's not a perfect solution but then with varying 'intensity' through the phrase I think it comes pretty clos
> 
> Edit: That's using 'legato' bowing with the "Legato" setting on the right (Not True Legato). Also there is something that disturbs vibrato if you 'slur on overlap' so that has to be handled differently.



Good advice. Thanks!


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