# Writer's share & publisher's share?



## Christian Marcussen (Jan 4, 2010)

Hi. 

Never done music for US TV before so I have a question. The producer is a friend so it's all pretty informal, but I still wan't a good deal. So when we make a contract what should I aim for in regards to share? Is it fair/possible/normal to get both writer's and publisher's share on a TV show? Or how would that normally work when your music acconpanies a TV series?


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## dinerdog (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Writer's share & pubnlisher's share?*

Highly unlikely you'll get ANY publishing. Maybe all the writers.


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## Christian Marcussen (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks... who or what makes it unlikely? Which part of the chain?


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## JohnG (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Writer's share & pubnlisher's share?*

I don't know of any regular TV composing deal in the US where the composer gets a share of publishing. You should get all the writer's share.

If it's for no money or an obscure cable slot or there is some unusual circumstance, perhaps this is negotiable. In the absence of such a situation, the production companies may look at you askance if you ask for publishing. 

Independent films are another matter entirely.

I heard of one major TV composer who recorded different versions of cues, one for the show and one for his own library -- they differ somewhat, I hear, though not that much. That way one can at least have something to peddle to libraries or as one's own "house" library.


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## Christian Marcussen (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks John. 

The situation is this: Friend owns a small indie company that produce animations. My contract is negociated with him at this point since he very much sees me as an integral part of the show (and having done stuff probono for him in the past). That means he is very open to giving me the best possible deal.

So in such a situation, how would you recommend I go about it?


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## gsilbers (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Writer's share & pubnlisher's share?*



JohnG @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> .
> 
> I heard of one major TV composer who recorded different versions of cues, one for the show and one for his own library -- they differ somewhat, I hear, though not that much. That way one can at least have something to peddle to libraries or as one's own "house" library.



wouldn't that be "derivative work"? a lot of contracts have that u cannot use it or anyone use it or a derivative work of it. i had the same question a while back and someone told me that you cannot do that. 
the examples i gave was the same exact one u mentioned above. 
i scored a film and wanted to re do every cue with changes to be able to use it music libraries.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 4, 2010)

I've never had a deal other that 100% writers and 0% publisher. If you are creating a work for hire, the buyer is buying the music rights,and you should be entitled to all of the writers royalties. I've heard of deals where you have to give away the writers as well to the buyer, (as opposed to ghost writing and not getting any royalties) but I would never ever do that, i would encourage all composers to never EVER give up their writers share to some slimy production company.

There is another option and that is to license your music. The idea is that you present your music as a "library" rather than as a custom score. As someone mentioned in this thread though, most legit companies will require the rights to your music when they buy it. You can try to negotiate a licensing deal with someone who is buget challenged.

The Publishers share of the residuals is equal to the writers share I believe, at least with ASCAP. Please correct me if I am wrong about that.

All of the contracts I've signed have had language that states you aren't entitled to any additional residual payments except explicit deals on other media,(cd's, I've never gotten back end on DVD's). This means from the buyer, not the performing rights society. Make sure the contract explicitly says you are entitled to the "writers share" from the performing rights society.


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## gsilbers (Jan 4, 2010)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> Thanks John.
> 
> The situation is this: Friend owns a small indie company that produce animations. My contract is negociated with him at this point since he very much sees me as an integral part of the show (and having done stuff probono for him in the past). That means he is very open to giving me the best possible deal.
> 
> So in such a situation, how would you recommend I go about it?



license your music exclusively to them for a time period (3-5 years) !!!! 
yes a filmscore in which u create for that show and its yours and u license it to them. 
even better if its non exclusive but exclusive for a show its better for the tv show and your friend and easier for them to accept but go for non exclusive 1st and see 

or a exclusive license for the score but for 2 years. 

this way you own everything and given them permission to use it for that tv show only or for their company. around the world or sections.. etc.


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## Christian Marcussen (Jan 5, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> Christian - I have always been 100% writers - 0% publishing BUT if he's a 'bud' I'd ask - wouldn't hurt :wink:
> 
> Rob



Yeah. But I'm thinking that he may say yes. But then some financers come a long and they say no. And in that case it's renegotiation - and who knows what else goes once you open up.


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## Farkle (Jan 5, 2010)

Christian Marcussen @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> Rob Elliott @ Mon Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Christian - I have always been 100% writers - 0% publishing BUT if he's a 'bud' I'd ask - wouldn't hurt :wink:
> ...



I've always had one of two experiences working:

Case 1: TV production company, production library, film production company: They took 100% of the publisher, and I kept 10% of the writers. I was _compensated_ for this with a writing fee (some hundred dollars per minute). In essence, like was mentioned before, they were paying me to have exclusive publishing rights for my music, and to own 100% of the publisher share of that music. (I apologize to all my legal friends if I'm not exactly stating this correctly, about the "exclusive publishing". All I know is, the library/TV show pays me, they get to use the music when and where they want, and any time they use it, I get a writer's royalty from ASCAP).


Case 2: Indie film, pitch to a network, crappy hobbyist. I license the music to them for _that project only_ with a big "ancillary usage" clause in there. I keep all the writer's share, I keep all the publisher's share. I can re-use the music anywhere I want. That happens if the people can't pay me at all, or pay way below my going rate. The whole, "It's a great opportunity" doesn't fly with me anymore. Got burned too many times with that. Buy me a virtual beer, and I'll tell you how my best man screwed me out of an Mtv pilot. 

Long and short is, almost all negotiations fall into these two cases. So, in my opinion, your discussions with your producer should be focused on this one question:

Can you pay me enough per minute to purchase the publishing and exclusive publishing/distribution of this music?

If the answer is yes, then the _industry standard_ is to sign over your publishin, keep all of your writer's share, and the music is written for the production company.

If the answer is no, then you keep both publisher and writer, and you license the music to them for a finite term, and for limited projects.

If you are truly that integral to these projects (and I believe that you, like most of us here on the forum, will bring real value to the project) then your friend should pony up on the music budget. Period. 

Woof! Pseudo-rant over.  Incidentally, this is _very_ similar to my Mtv screwjob setup (old friend, new production company, pitching to network, no money up front, but "great opportunity"). That b*ll$%#t don't fly with me no more. 


I hope this helps, and please, take it as one man's experience and opinion. 

Mike


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## Christian Marcussen (Jan 5, 2010)

Great reply Mike, thanks! 



> If the answer is yes, then the industry standard is to sign over your publishin, keep all of your writer's share, and the music is written for the production company.



I was looking for something like this. 

Cheers


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## Farkle (Jan 5, 2010)

No problem, Christian, I'm glad I could help!

Oh, and I had a typo earlier. In case 1, when a TV company purchased the publishing, they kept 100% of publishing, and I kept _100%_ of the Writer's share, not 10%. :oops: 

Little embarressing typo. Heh, heh.

And, incidentally, two of my friends, who are working on low-budget cable shows, actually did negotiate to keep both their publishing and writing share, and that was because the company couldn't afford to pay them very much up-front per episode. The producers were very happy to do that, because the production company doesn't pay the royalties, the network does (at least, I think so).
*But*... if you keep both publisher and writer shares for the TV show, then it is your responsibility to log your cue sheets with ASCAP, BMI, Sesac, etc. And, it takes about 2-3 hours per TV show to log those (you can do it online). So, be prepared to do that administrative gruntwork, if you keep both writer and publisher.

Mike


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## reddognoyz (Jan 5, 2010)

A) I'm hoping that's a typo and you meant you kept 100% not 10% of the writer's share

B) Mtv can b^%$ me. They have a culture there of getting work for next to nothing. Producers who can bamboozle you into doing work for peanuts get ahead there. To them, music is just some paste you download, for free if at all possible. Ascap from Mtv? if your doing anything for them that falls into promo, and that's most of the work they have, you will get nothing or next to nothing. That's on ASCAP, but don't count on any back end.

A typical scenario is: 

Work like a dog on some pilot show's theme, your frantically scoring while the editor is frantically re-editing the picture, round and round a few times, but you do it because if the show goes you get the theme song!!!! ye-ha. 

six months later you turn on the tube and there's the show w/o the theme song you did on spec (because if the show went you were going to get the theme song!!! ye-ha)

you call up your ex-best friend rat bastard producer who you haven't hear a word from since the project wrapped.

"Oh yea, sorry bro, "the network" was able to get {incert minor pop star's name here} to let us use a track from his/her new album. Sorry, Didn't I email you? Don't worry about it we'll be working together A LOT, i'll call you next week" 

click

silence

until he has the next job that doesn't pay S**t. then

Hey I've got this thing, it doesn't pay alot/any money, but it's a great opportunity!!!

Moral of the story? Once you're the "free demo" guy, you are always going to be the "free demo" guy. If that producer get's some dough to spend on music, it will be with someone "cool" not the "free demo" guy.


I'm generalizing and venting of course, but that's been my experience, and it's over many years.


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## Farkle (Jan 5, 2010)

reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> A) I'm hoping that's a typo and you meant you kept 100% not 10% of the writer's share
> 
> B) Mtv can b^%$ me. They have a culture there of getting work for next to nothing. Producers who can bamboozle you into doing work for peanuts get ahead there. To them, music is just some paste you download, for free if at all possible. Ascap from Mtv? if your doing anything for them that falls into promo, and that's most of the work they have, you will get nothing or next to nothing. That's on ASCAP, but don't count on any back end.
> 
> ...



Preach on, my brother. That is the *exact* scenario that happened to me with my Mtv pitch! I'm absolutely serious, it was almost identical. Except the final screw job is, the producer/director actually used my piece, but tried to pass it off as the new composer's. 

Wow. Just wow.

Oh, and you're absolutely right. 10% was a typo. Damn "0" doesn't work on my computer. Should have been 100%. 

Mike


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 5, 2010)

reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> A) I'm hoping that's a typo and you meant you kept 100% not 10% of the writer's share
> 
> B) Mtv can b^%$ me. They have a culture there of getting work for next to nothing. Producers who can bamboozle you into doing work for peanuts get ahead there. To them, music is just some paste you download, for free if at all possible. Ascap from Mtv? if your doing anything for them that falls into promo, and that's most of the work they have, you will get nothing or next to nothing. That's on ASCAP, but don't count on any back end.
> 
> ...




Spot on. For me it is psychological - I want them to pay UPFRONT for my work. They just seem to be more 'professional' down the road. Will the next guy do if for 'near free' for the oppty - for sure. Something you will never control - but what you produce - is under your control -- :wink:


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## gsilbers (Jan 5, 2010)

reddognoyz @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> I've never had a deal other that 100% writers and 0% publisher. If you are creating a work for hire, the buyer is buying the music rights,and you should be entitled to all of the writers royalties. I've heard of deals where you have to give away the writers as well to the buyer, (as opposed to ghost writing and not getting any royalties) but I would never ever do that, i would encourage all composers to never EVER give up their writers share to some slimy production company.
> 
> There is another option and that is to license your music. The idea is that you present your music as a "library" rather than as a custom score. As someone mentioned in this thread though, most legit companies will require the rights to your music when they buy it. You can try to negotiate a licensing deal with someone who is buget challenged.
> 
> ...





i think, from the way the OP put it cause they are friends and all. that he can do the licensing deal. very hard to come by but the few composers that ive met that had , are using their cues for other stuff. and royalties keep on coming. 

and the licensing paperwork is easier and faster. 

dunno why other people are not encouraging this, maybe everyone became "used to" the other way.


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## JohnG (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Writer's share & pubnlisher's share?*



gsilbers @ 4th January 2010 said:


> JohnG @ Mon Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



It wasn't my material. You make a good point about it being arguably a derivative work, but it's a story I've heard from a few people. 

Honestly I sometimes wonder whether most of the people we work for would recognise their own score in another film. There are happy exceptions, of course; I work with one director who picked out a piece of my music that I'd played him only as a demo. He recognised it in a trailer he saw at the theatre. As it happened, I hadn't yet heard that it had been licensed so he found out before I did. Sadly, that level of musical acuity remains rare.


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