# POLL: 100mm or 60mm for CC control over scoring libraries?(edit w/ photo on page 2)



## companyofquail (Jan 16, 2021)

getting ready to make a 4 fader midi controller and was curious what the consensus on the forum was.


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## Pablocrespo (Jan 17, 2021)

10 100mm faders in a little box with a cable to a hidden arduino board changed my life, I recommend 100mm


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## wst3 (Jan 17, 2021)

I actually prefer the shorter faders for shaping MIDI CC data. Not by a lot, but for me it is a little bit easier. It certainly would not influence a purchasing decision!


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## AllanH (Jan 17, 2021)

Mine are 60 mm. To some extent it probably depends on the quality and "resolution" of the fader and controller, but I've had no issues with 60 mm. It's actually a good size as it does not require much movement beyond the fingers.


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## sinkd (Jan 17, 2021)

This looks interesting:


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## TGV (Jan 17, 2021)

Length is one thing, but what about girth and solidity?

I'll get me coat.


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## companyofquail (Jan 17, 2021)

Thank you all for the comments. I am also reviewing the different converters and resolution.


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## cloudbuster (Jan 17, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> Thank you all for the comments. I am also reviewing the different converters and resolution.


Whatever you do, 7bit (0...127) won't cut it but you may know that already.


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## Paul Jelfs (Jan 17, 2021)

cloudbuster said:


> Whatever you do, 7bit (0...127) won't cut it but you may know that already.


Do all DAWs and VSTs support higher values ? For example I use Cubase , and it seems to only go 0-127 in the midi lane. 

But that could well be my settings or ignorance.


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## companyofquail (Jan 17, 2021)

cloudbuster said:


> Whatever you do, 7bit (0...127) won't cut it but you may know that already.


Yes. Thank you for the info but I was already aware. My testings are with the converters and trying to figure out if I can make midi one smoother with the long fader. I’m going to use hardware that will allow me to let it do osc or midi 2.0 in the future. I am also going to make it editable on the hardware. No computer software so that it will still be useful in 20 years.


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## cloudbuster (Jan 18, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Do all DAWs and VSTs support higher values ? For example I use Cubase , and it seems to only go 0-127 in the midi lane.
> 
> But that could well be my settings or ignorance.


I don't even remember the last version # of Cubase I've used, but AFAIK most DAWs happily accept at least 10bit values from e.g. Mackie controllers (standard of sorts) at least for volume (automation).


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## Loïc D (Jan 18, 2021)

I prefer 60mm but I have short fingers, as seen on my picture.


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## companyofquail (Jan 18, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> I prefer 60mm but I have short fingers, as seen on my picture.


thanks for the input. i really enjoyed your eric whitacre entries on your youtube channel.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 18, 2021)

Although I voted for 60mm (mainly because I'm hoping that it will help you create a smaller footprint form factor for the box), I'd be more than happy to accept 100mm - as long as you get your product out quickly. I just spent the best part of two days finally getting my replacement Korg nanoKontrol2 working again in Logic. 

But really, I've already got enough keyboards and controllers for this and that on my desk so available space is at a minimum. I well imagine that would be the same situation for most of your potential purchasers. 

Clutter is not my friend. 

.


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## 24dBFS (Jan 18, 2021)

What about the resolution? Just a length is not everything.


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## companyofquail (Jan 18, 2021)

24dBFS said:


> What about the resolution? Just a length is not everything.


you are quite correct sir, as your web address in the sig would suggest;

we have been messing around with different high resolution solutions at the moment and using better external DACs. 

I am not a software engineer, but i have hired one that has done a few other projects for me over the past few years. 

i merely try out what he puts together and then i make notes. when we get closer i will post more technical information. at the moment it looks like we are going to be using STM ARM for the next prototype.


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## companyofquail (Jan 18, 2021)

Jack Weaver said:


> Although I voted for 60mm (mainly because I'm hoping that it will help you create a smaller footprint form factor for the box), I'd be more than happy to accept 100mm - as long as you get your product out quickly. I just spent the best part of two days finally getting my replacement Korg nanoKontrol2 working again in Logic.
> 
> But really, I've already got enough keyboards and controllers for this and that on my desk so available space is at a minimum. I well imagine that would be the same situation for most of your potential purchasers.
> 
> ...


the goal is to get a good mixture of small footprint, long throw(min of 60mm) with good resolution and a couple of tricks up the sleeve. the case is going to be machined out of a single piece of 3/8" aluminum bar stock, which will make it look excellent, precise, and have as a low of a profile as possible.


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## Loïc D (Jan 18, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> thanks for the input. i really enjoyed your eric whitacre entries on your youtube channel.


Thanks. IIRC I spent 2h maximum on it. Maybe my best stuff is the one I care the less for


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## BassClef (Jan 18, 2021)

I prefer short throw faders with high resolution. I like to "fade" with my forearm anchored, somewhere between my wrist and elbow, depending on the work surface that the controller is setting on. This allows finer control (wrist and finger movement only) without having to actually move the larger muscles in my arm. This is the same way I use my mouse pad. I am currently using a StudioLogic Mixface controller with only 45mm faders.


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## companyofquail (Jan 19, 2021)

BassClef said:


> I prefer short throw faders with high resolution. I like to "fade" with my forearm anchored, somewhere between my wrist and elbow, depending on the work surface that the controller is setting on. This allows finer control (wrist and finger movement only) without having to actually move the larger muscles in my arm. This is the same way I use my mouse pad. I am currently using a StudioLogic Mixface controller with only 45mm faders.


i use my mouse this way as well but find that i enjoy a longer throw on the faders. probably just from years of doing live sound.


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## companyofquail (Jan 19, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> Thanks. IIRC I spent 2h maximum on it. Maybe my best stuff is the one I care the less for


i often get this with stuff i share as well. i feel your pain!


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## companyofquail (Jan 19, 2021)

24dBFS said:


> What about the resolution? Just a length is not everything.


just wanted to give you a heads up. i talked to my software guy tonight and we are going to use 16bit ADCs and focus on high resolution. we should be sending off for the prototype board next week, so ill keep thing updated here.


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## companyofquail (Jan 29, 2021)

9 illuminated buttons, 5 faders, 3 1/8" jacks(for hardware midi connectivity or chaining units together to get 10 faders, 15 faders etc or other units i make later), and 4 tiny lcd displays to give you feedback for editing the unit. there is not software from the computer. just a usb class compliant device that that also has a midi output so it can be used standalone or with a computer.

right now the 4 lower buttons are for selecting banks or if two buttons are long held it opens different edits for the buttons or faders. midi channel, midi cc, or note value(for buttons) so you could use them for CC or for keyswitching.

feel free to make any suggestions as its still in prototype phase and i need to design a solid aluminum enclosure.

the lcd screens are recessed so that they are only noticeable during editing.


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## Leandro Z (Jan 30, 2021)

Wow. Really excited about this!! Will follow the thread to be updated!


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## companyofquail (Jan 30, 2021)

Leandro Z said:


> Wow. Really excited about this!! Will follow the thread to be updated!


thanks, i am pretty excited too. been wanting some good long throw faders in a compact space for a while.


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## companyofquail (Feb 4, 2021)

turned in the board to my machinist for feedback today and should have the case drawn up next week. then get it 3d printed soon after as well as order the prototype boards once the box is verified to work with the board or we make adjustments.


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## Jack Weaver (Feb 4, 2021)

Will you be able to cascade more than one unit?

.


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## companyofquail (Feb 4, 2021)

Jack Weaver said:


> Will you be able to cascade more than one unit?
> 
> .


yes, that is one function of the jacks... and there will be other units available. we are already working on an x/y pad with the possibility of a non center return joystick. i am still waiting on some samples for the joystick. the ones i have tried out so far have not been satisfactory so i ordered some much more expensive ones from japan.


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## companyofquail (Feb 4, 2021)

i have also added a video of the 3d file to my instagram(in signature)


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## companyofquail (Feb 17, 2021)

sent off for the pcb prototype last week and started the design for the machined aluminum box earlier today. gonna 3d print it soon. i will be using shorter caps for the buttons on the production model. hopefully have some working videos in the next 3-4 weeks. all the lines in the render will not be there in production, it will be completely smooth.


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## companyofquail (Mar 6, 2021)

got the first 3d print of the box. need to make some adjustments to the fader slots and the holes got printed a little too small for the screws to go in so we gotta look at that next week.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 7, 2021)

Very interesting!

1. Did you go with 60 or 100mm?
2. Why five sliders and not four?
3. What are the 9 buttons and four displays for?


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## companyofquail (Mar 7, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Very interesting!
> 
> 1. Did you go with 60 or 100mm?
> 2. Why five sliders and not four?
> 3. What are the 9 buttons and four displays for?


1) These are 100mm
2) I wanted 4 displays and needed 4 jacks on the back to be able to do all the connections I wanted(usb, midi, expand I/O)
3a) the buttons are programmable to do banks/pages,CC or keyswitching. I’m still deciding what setup works best to ship them with but the user can change that. 
3b) the displays are mostly used to display while programming the unit, this way you need no software and it just sends midi out. They are recessed and dim after use so you don’t notice them unless programming. If users want them to do something else I can make that happen in the future if I agree with the proposal.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 7, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> 1) These are 100mm
> 2) I wanted 4 displays and needed 4 jacks on the back to be able to do all the connections I wanted(usb, midi, expand I/O)
> 3a) the buttons are programmable to do banks/pages,CC or keyswitching. I’m still deciding what setup works best to ship them with but the user can change that.
> 3b) the displays are mostly used to display while programming the unit, this way you need no software and it just sends midi out. They are recessed and dim after use so you don’t notice them unless programming. If users want them to do something else I can make that happen in the future if I agree with the proposal.


Thanks! But why not four sliders, four displays and 8 buttons? I mean. What is the fifth slider and ninth button for, if there are four displays? :D


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## companyofquail (Mar 7, 2021)

The displays are one digit each. They do not reflect each slider or button. The combined reading of all 4 digits is for programming the sliders and buttons. The buttons are multi color to reflect what state they are in(key switch, cc, saved page, or blink for edit mode)


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## companyofquail (Mar 7, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Thanks! But why not four sliders, four displays and 8 buttons? I mean. What is the fifth slider and ninth button for, if there are four displays? :D


I based this on what I use most then balanced with what information I got from this forum and users I know.
Also aesthetically it looks worse if I cut off one fader and one button.
There will be a 2 fader version as well that stand alone only spits out CC 11 and CC 1. But you can plug it into the larger unit abs it can be programmed from the larger unit.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 7, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> I based this on what I use most then balanced with what information I got from this forum and users I know.
> Also aesthetically it looks worse if I cut off one fader and one button.
> There will be a 2 fader version as well that stand alone only spits out CC 11 and CC 1. But you can plug it into the larger unit abs it can be programmed from the larger unit.


Oh! Very interested in the two-fader version! So no buttons or displays at all on that one, just the two faders?


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## companyofquail (Mar 7, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Oh! Very interested in the two-fader version! So no buttons or displays at all on that one, just the two faders?


There will be one button and two faders. No displays. No programming. Just two high quality 100mm faders in a solid aluminum enclosure.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 7, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> There will be one button and two faders. No displays. No programming. Just two high quality 100mm faders in a solid aluminum enclosure.


Cool! What will the button do?


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## companyofquail (Mar 7, 2021)

Right now I am using it to switch between 11/1 and 21/19(spitfire vibrato and reverb) but I am not settled on that yet.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 7, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> Right now I am using it to switch between 11/1 and 21/19(spitfire vibrato and reverb) but I am not settled on that yet.


How many colors can it display?


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## companyofquail (Mar 7, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> How many colors can it display?


the led button can display three colors


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## companyofquail (Mar 9, 2021)

picture of the 3d print on the s49 mk2 for reference of size. the feet are going to be positioned so that it can sit right beside the transport and hang off the keyboard. that way it will fit on more keyboard sizes.


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> picture of the 3d print on the s49 mk2 for reference of size. the feet are going to be positioned so that it can sit right beside the transport and hang off the keyboard. that way it will fit on more keyboard sizes.


Looks great! Any thoughts on approximate price?


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Looks great! Any thoughts on approximate price?


I will feel more comfortable on giving this after I have the details worked out on the case.


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> I will feel more comfortable on giving this after I have the details worked out on the case.


Understandable. At the moment I'm doing fine with my Akai MIDIMIX, though I can definitely imagine at some point being good enough to appreciate the extra resolution and throw of the unit you're planning.

Will keep watching the thread. Thanks!


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Understandable. At the moment I'm doing fine with my Akai MIDIMIX, though I can definitely imagine at some point being good enough to appreciate the extra resolution and throw of the unit you're planning.
> 
> Will keep watching the thread. Thanks!


There will also be a two fader version that will send cc11 and cc1. if you find you need more faders you can buy the larger unit, plug the small unit into the larger unit, and the small unit can be programmed from the larger unit. I feel like there are a lot of people that could get by with just the 2 fader model. I’m still working out the details on how I want that one to be and work out. Should have more answers In a week or two once we get the new prototype boards in.


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> There will also be a two fader version that will send cc11 and cc1. if you find you need more faders you can buy the larger unit, plug the small unit into the larger unit, and the small unit can be programmed from the larger unit. I feel like there are a lot of people that could get by with just the 2 fader model. I’m still working out the details on how I want that one to be and work out. Should have more answers In a week or two once we get the new prototype boards in.


Thanks for the detailed answer.

In terms of actual live performance, two faders is fine. It's a shame that they're locked to either of two combinations, though. Would be great to be able to make a first pass with #11 & #1, then be able to assign the faders to any other parameter for further automation.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Thanks for the detailed answer.
> 
> In terms of actual live performance, two faders is fine. It's a shame that they're locked to either of two combinations, though. Would be great to be able to make a first pass with #11 & #1, then be able to assign the faders to any other parameter for further automation.


this is actually part of what i am working out. i may use a button to select between 2 or 3 pages of standard CC values and just let the user handle the midi learn function on their end. unfortunately i have not come up with a clever way of making the thing compact, affordable, high quality, AND USER PROGRAMABLE. i like the idea of putting a single button on there and in standalone mode it just toggles between 2 pages (CC11 / CC1 and CC21 / CC19). with spitfire stuff this would work right out of the box for modulation/dynamics and vibrato/reverb then allowing the user to just use midi learn on the page 2. would you happen to have any opinions on this?


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> this is actually part of what i am working out. i may use a button to select between 2 or 3 pages of standard CC values and just let the user handle the midi learn function on their end. unfortunately i have not come up with a clever way of making the thing compact, affordable, high quality, AND USER PROGRAMABLE. i like the idea of putting a single button on there and in standalone mode it just toggles between 2 pages (CC11 / CC1 and CC21 / CC19). with spitfire stuff this would work right out of the box for modulation/dynamics and vibrato/reverb then allowing the user to just use midi learn on the page 2. would you happen to have any opinions on this?


I don't think there's anything wrong with setting up stuff out of the box, but it seems arbitrary to choose Spitfire over anything else. Pretty sure that there are very few who'd use Spitfire exclusively. Of course, if it's programmable, it's no issue.

How about having a button for each slider that uses different colours for the different pages?(I think you mentioned you could have 3). And then allow MIDI-learn for each of the 3 pages. I don't see why #11 & #1 should necessarily be hard-coded. Why not give users the option to MIDI-learn six distinct CC's, to taste?

Then for MIDI-learn, just hold down either of the buttons until the light flashes (Flashes the same colour as the respective page colour), learn the parameter and one short click to take it back to non-flashing, learnt state.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with setting up stuff out of the box, but it seems arbitrary to choose Spitfire over anything else. Pretty sure that there are very few who'd use Spitfire exclusively. Of course, if it's programmable, it's no issue.
> 
> How about having a button for each slider that uses different colours for the different pages?(I think you mentioned you could have 3). And then allow MIDI-learn for each of the 3 pages. I don't see why #11 & #1 should necessarily be hard-coded. Why not give users the option to MIDI-learn six distinct CC's, to taste?
> 
> Then for MIDI-learn, just hold down either of the buttons until the light flashes (Flashes the same colour as the respective page colour), learn the parameter and one short click to take it back to non-flashing, learnt state.


i think i understand what you are requesting, but just to be clear: 

when you say "midi learn" on the hardware where are you sending the midi cc from for the hardware faders to learn? 

I do not want to create software for the the units as i want them to work as standalone devices using midi output over the usb cable. 

unless i am missing something, in order to do this i need to assign a midi cc per fader/per page on the hardware and then the user can use midi learn in their software to control it. 

the larger unit has lcd for programming. in order for the smaller unit to have programable feature from the front panel of the hardware i would need to put some kind of lcd on it and i am not sure if i can fit a lcd on there in the footprint i want to keep. 

if you do not mind please explain your suggestion from the software and hardware side in a little more detail so that i can make sure i am understanding your request and try to implement it.


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> i think i understand what you are requesting, but just to be clear:
> 
> when you say "midi learn" on the hardware where are you sending the midi cc from for the hardware faders to learn?
> 
> ...


Yeah, sorry...Bit of a brain-fart there, regarding the setting up of CC's 

While it does look like the screens could fit vertically between faders one and two, maybe it's not worth the stress. Looking again at the footprint for the five faders, it seems small enough to not be much of a size concern. The only concern is the cost. If a two-fader version would be dramatically cheaper (especially given lack of screens) then there definitely could be a market. 

Of course, it might be worthwhile still providing a software editor (Consider open-source, for longevity's sake). Then keep the first page hard-coded. That way the user doesn't have to MIDI-learn every plugin they have. They can just use the software to set, save presets and 'flash' the hardware. If at any point the software fails to work, at least #11 & #1 will be hard-coded to page 1, and whatever numbers had been flashed to the hardware could then still be learnt at a plugin level. Best of both worlds.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Yeah, sorry...Bit of a brain-fart there, regarding the setting up of CC's
> 
> While it does look like the screens could fit vertically between faders one and two, maybe it's not worth the stress. Looking again at the footprint for the five faders, it seems small enough to not be much of a size concern. The only concern is the cost. If a two-fader version would be dramatically cheaper (especially given lack of screens) then there definitely could be a market.
> 
> Of course, it might be worthwhile still providing a software editor (Consider open-source, for longevity's sake). Then keep the first page hard-coded. That way the user doesn't have to MIDI-learn every plugin they have. They can just use the software to set, save presets and 'flash' the hardware. If at any point the software fails to work, at least #11 & #1 will be hard-coded to page 1, and whatever numbers had been flashed to the hardware could then still be learnt at a plugin level. Best of both worlds.


the screens may fit between the faders vertically and that is what i am talking to my board layout guy about. the only issue is those pesky chips and resistors needing to go there too! hahaah. thank you very much for your time and input. i really do appreciate it and hopefully i will be able to get some of the things we have discussed into the final product. 

the price issue is mostly in the design of the box.

if i put parts on the back of the pcb and it makes the box deeper then i have to go up to a thicker piece of metal which includes two costs; 1)the extra cost of the thickness of aluminum bar stock, and 2) machine removing said extra material. this may not be as bad as i am assuming it could be but with that many things to change its gonna take a few conversations with a couple of different people to really nail it down.


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> the screens may fit between the faders vertically and that is what i am talking to my board layout guy about. the only issue is those pesky chips and resistors needing to go there too! hahaah. thank you very much for your time and input. i really do appreciate it and hopefully i will be able to get some of the things we have discussed into the final product.
> 
> the price issue is mostly in the design of the box.
> 
> if i put parts on the back of the pcb and it makes the box deeper then i have to go up to a thicker piece of metal which includes two costs; 1)the extra cost of the thickness of aluminum bar stock, and 2) machine removing said extra material. this may not be as bad as i am assuming it could be but with that many things to change its gonna take a few conversations with a couple of different people to really nail it down.


But again, if you add a simple, tiny, open-source app-let to the equation, you can easily differentiate the two units, giving them both their distinct value. If the 5-fader unit can be controlled onboard as well as with software, then it would be much easier to make the case for a much cheaper 2-fader (non-screen) software-only version.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> But again, if you add a simple, tiny, open-source app-let to the equation, you can easily differentiate the two units, giving them both their distinct value. If the 5-fader unit can be controlled onboard as well as with software, then it would be much easier to make the case for a much cheaper 2-fader (non-screen) software-only version.


i will definitely take this under advisement. i actually designed a custom midi controller for a client and we went with a web browser editor that could send it sysex. maybe we can monkey around with that idea and make it work in the context of this device. thanks again for your input! it really helps when i can chat with people about these ideas.


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> i will definitely take this under advisement. i actually designed a custom midi controller for a client and we went with a web browser editor that could send it sysex. maybe we can monkey around with that idea and make it work in the context of this device. thanks again for your input! it really helps when i can chat with people about these ideas.


Anything that means you'd have to spend no time worrying about updating software would probably work. 

For me, it's all about the price. But then I wouldn't recommend using me as a realistic target market. 

Did you manage to see the other thread about fader-controllers, from a designer selling on etsy?


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Anything that means you'd have to spend no time worrying about updating software would probably work.
> 
> For me, it's all about the price. But then I wouldn't recommend using me as a realistic target market.
> 
> Did you manage to see the other thread about fader-controllers, from a designer selling on etsy?


yes i have seen that, and while i am glad that something like that exists and is available as a cost friendly alternative, i am more interested in hitting somewhere in price between what they are doing and what monogram are doing. but being physically nicer(or at least more sturdy/rugged). the case will be machined out of solid piece of aluminum and the buttons and faders are of high quality. 

at the end of the day i am mostly trying to make something that i would use and be proud of. then try and figure out if there is anything i can do to it that would stay within my design parameters to make it useful to a few more people as well. that is why i appreciate your(and others) input so much.


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> yes i have seen that, and while i am glad that something like that exists and is available as a cost friendly alternative, i am more interested in hitting somewhere in price between what they are doing and what monogram are doing. but being physically nicer(or at least more sturdy/rugged). the case will be machined out of solid piece of aluminum and the buttons and faders are of high quality.
> 
> at the end of the day i am mostly trying to make something that i would use and be proud of. then try and figure out if there is anything i can do to it that would stay within my design parameters to make it useful to a few more people as well. that is why i appreciate your(and others) input so much.


I understand what you're going for. Unfortunately, the price-point puts me out of your potential market. I don't think I'm representative of this forum in that, however, and I'm sure you'll have a captive audience.

I wish you all the best


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## mybadmemory (Mar 10, 2021)

Just an idea for the two-fader unit. Let's say you have two buttons, one above each fader. By pressing them you could toggle between three banks of two faders for a total of six. The color of the buttons could show which bank you're on. If you want to program a fader you hold the button above that fader until it starts to blink. You then set the CC value you want it to have with the slider, relying on your DAW instead of the unit itself to see this number.

Most DAW's clearly show incoming CC values somehere, so let's say you always temporarily send this "setter-value" as CC1 so the daw would see it as modulation and display whatever value between between 1-127 your slider is on in it's midi-in display. And you then use *this* value to set the new CC for that fader. Not sure if it's possible but it would be just as handy I think, and you wouldn't need the displays.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Just an idea for the two-fader unit. Let's say you have two buttons, one above each fader. By pressing them you could toggle between three banks of two faders for a total of six. The color of the buttons could show which bank you're on. If you want to program a fader you hold the button above that fader until it starts to blink. You then set the CC value you want it to have with the slider, relying on your DAW instead of the unit itself to see this number.
> 
> Most DAW's clearly show incoming CC values somehere, so let's say you always temporarily send this "setter-value" as CC1 so the daw would see it as modulation and display whatever value between between 1-127 your slider is on in it's midi-in display. And you then use *this* value to set the new CC for that fader. Not sure if it's possible but it would be just as handy I think, and you wouldn't need the displays.


this is totally possible and i have thought about this but i dismissed it because i was unsure how many daw could display midi easily. this idea came about because of things like midi ox, pocket midi, and midiview but i didnt want people to have to rely on that. now that i am able to step back a little and look at the project from the 2 fader version instead of the 5 fader version this makes a little more sense. 

would you mind to give me a list of daws you know of that can display this midi data easily?


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## mybadmemory (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> this is totally possible and i have thought about this but i dismissed it because i was unsure how many daw could display midi easily. this idea came about because of things like midi ox, pocket midi, and midiview but i didnt want people to have to rely on that. now that i am able to step back a little and look at the project from the 2 fader version instead of the 5 fader version this makes a little more sense.
> 
> would you mind to give me a list of daws you know of that can display this midi data easily?


I guess I was just assuming, since Logic clearly displays all midi in values directly in its transport section. But possibly other DAW users could chime in here as well!


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## mybadmemory (Mar 10, 2021)

It would also be more symmetrical with two buttons and two faders! ☺️


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I guess I was just assuming, since Logic clearly displays all midi in values directly in its transport section. But possibly other DAW users could chime in here as well!


i know logic does, cubase has a midi monitor, and i bet reaper has something because it seems to have about damn near everything(whether it is easy to get to or not, i have no clue.) if ableton has one i have not found it and had to use workarounds, i have not seen one in presonus studio one yet but it seems to have a lot of things added on a regular basis. hopefully some more people can chime in on these.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> It would also be more symmetrical with two buttons and two faders! ☺️


this is true and def not being overlooked. it would look better beside the larger unit that way too.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 10, 2021)

Another idea using two buttons could be: Hold to start. Blinking starts. First button sets the first digit of the three digit sequence with the number of presses. Second button moves to second digit. And so on. So setting a CC value of 127 for example would be:

Hold. Blink. First button one time. Second button one time. First button two times. Second button one time. First button seven times. Second button one time.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Another idea using two buttons could be: Hold to start. Blinking starts. First button sets the first digit of the three digit sequence with the number of presses. Second button moves to second digit. And so on. So setting a CC value of 127 for example would be:
> 
> Hold. Blink. First button one time. Second button one time. First button two times. Second button one time. First button seven times. Second button one time.


should i ship the unit with a cyanide pill? j/k, lol. thats a little outside the realm of user friendly i am going for. but def keep the ideas coming. even within that one there are some things i like that spring creativity and other ideas!


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## el-bo (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> i dismissed it because i was unsure how many daw could display midi easily.


Pretty sure that both Windows and OSX have access to free MIDI monitor apps.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

yes they do, i just didn't want people to have to open an app when they wanted to change stuff. BUT, that was when i was focusing on the 5 fader and 9 button only, now that i am adding the 2 fader and x/y pad with joystick modules to the lineup i am a little more friendly with the idea of a midi monitor assist and it seems like it could be a great solution to the problem. so i will work on including that capability.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> should i ship the unit with a cyanide pill? j/k, lol. thats a little outside the realm of user friendly i am going for. but def keep the ideas coming. even within that one there are some things i like that spring creativity and other ideas!


Haha. I realize it’s not ideal for changing on the fly. I was thinking with three banks and six virtual faders you might only do this setup once and then stick to it.


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Haha. I realize it’s not ideal for changing on the fly. I was thinking with three banks and six virtual faders you might only do this setup once and then stick to it.


yeah i totally get what you mean. i was just having a bit of fun. i imagine most people are going to set things up a certain way and leave them for a while. but if i make it easy on the youtube reviewers maybe they will hawk my goods LOL. mostly kidding..... but a few extra sales never hurt!


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## mybadmemory (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> yeah i totally get what you mean. i was just having a bit of fun. i imagine most people are going to set things up a certain way and leave them for a while. but if i make it easy on the youtube reviewers maybe they will hawk my goods LOL. mostly kidding..... but a few extra sales never hurt!


Yeah, the slider + midi input monitoring is definitely a better route if you think most people would be able to use it! For myself, just two faders, two buttons, and the midi in display in my DAW would work perfectly!


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## companyofquail (Mar 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Yeah, the slider + midi input monitoring is definitely a better route if you think most people would be able to use it! For myself, just two faders, two buttons, and the midi in display in my DAW would work perfectly!


If the buttons could be assigned to do things what would you use them for?


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## mybadmemory (Mar 10, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> If the buttons could be assigned to do things what would you use them for?


I personally wouldn’t use them for anything other than stepping between banks and enter/exit edit mode.


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## FGBR (Mar 17, 2021)

I'm very interested in this unit, looking forward to seeing the final design. Solid aluminium case sounds very promising. The two fader version seems interesting as well.

Personally I'd prefer that the focus was on making a very high quality product, I'm less concerned about the price. There's already plenty of cheap/cheap feeling units out there.

And keep in mind a lot of people here spend thousands of dollars on libraries (not to mention computers, speakers, mics, interfaces, synths, outboard gear, studio furniture etc.) and many are willing to pay the fairly high price of the JL Cooper Fadermaster for instance. Make an excellent controller, for a price you are comfortable with, and I suspect you will sell quite a few. Speaking for myself, if I found the perfect controller for my needs, I'd no doubt be very happy to get it for $100, but I imagine I would still end up getting it at several times that price.


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## companyofquail (Mar 17, 2021)

FGBR said:


> I'm very interested in this unit, looking forward to seeing the final design. Solid aluminium case sounds very promising. The two fader version seems interesting as well.
> 
> Personally I'd prefer that the focus was on making a very high quality product, I'm less concerned about the price. There's already plenty of cheap/cheap feeling units out there.
> 
> And keep in mind a lot of people here spend thousands of dollars on libraries (not to mention computers, speakers, mics, interfaces, synths, outboard gear, studio furniture etc.) and many are willing to pay the fairly high price of the JL Cooper Fadermaster for instance. Make an excellent controller, for a price you are comfortable with, and I suspect you will sell quite a few. Speaking for myself, if I found the perfect controller for my needs, I'd no doubt be very happy to get it for $100, but I imagine I would still end up getting it at several times that price.


Thank you. This is def the direction I am going in. I want it to be high quality, sleek and have a small footprint.


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## FGBR (Mar 17, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> Thank you. This is def the direction I am going in. I want it to be high quality, sleek and have a small footprint.


That's great to hear, and exactly what I'm looking for.


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## companyofquail (Mar 29, 2021)

we have been able to move forward with the software and found chips to suit all my specifications. we are sending off for another prototype today or tomorrow. here is the 2 channel version. not much to look at yet. we will also be 3d printing a case for it in the next week or so. ill post that as soon as it comes off the printer. this little guy will be about 4.5"x2"


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## Trevor Meier (Mar 30, 2021)

Very interested in this! The maker in this YouTube video has an interesting take on a user-friendly way to set CC's using a single button.


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## companyofquail (Mar 30, 2021)

Trevor Meier said:


> Very interested in this! The maker in this YouTube video has an interesting take on a user-friendly way to set CC's using a single button.


this is similar to how the five fader version(mentioned and pictured on page two of the thread) works but with one lcd screen between each fader near the top of the throw.

i wanted to keep a low profile and a small case so these options were not feasible in the two fader version. and you cant put all three lcd between the faders due to stability in the machining process.

in a box that size(in his video) it def works fine and is clever but, trying to do that for an actual manufactured product presents quite a few hurdles i would not care to take on, or charge the customer for =)

thanks for showing that to me though, i like to see anything that other people do.


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## JackOfMusic70 (Apr 6, 2021)

BassClef said:


> I prefer short throw faders with high resolution. I like to "fade" with my forearm anchored, somewhere between my wrist and elbow, depending on the work surface that the controller is setting on. This allows finer control (wrist and finger movement only) without having to actually move the larger muscles in my arm. This is the same way I use my mouse pad. I am currently using a StudioLogic Mixface controller with only 45mm faders.


I am trying to decide between the StudioLogic Mixface and the faderfox MX12...would you know which of these have a better resolution?


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## Trevor Meier (Apr 6, 2021)

JackOfMusic70 said:


> I am trying to decide between the StudioLogic Mixface and the faderfox MX12...would you know which of these have a better resolution?


Well the MX-12 is only 7-bit for faders & pots, so the Mixface won’t be any lower than that.


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## Trevor Meier (Apr 7, 2021)

The Rodecaster Pro just added MIDI control for its faders & pads in the latest beta update. Currently the faders are fixed to CC15 on incremental channels, but that’s easy enough to re-route in Logic. Might make a good interim CC controller?


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## companyofquail (Apr 7, 2021)

The Rodecaster Pro just added MIDI control for its faders & pads in the latest beta update. Currently the faders are fixed to CC15 on incremental channels, but that’s easy enough to re-route in Logic. Might make a good interim CC controller?
Oh wow, that is really cool of them to do!


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## Brobdingnagian (May 7, 2021)

Circling back on this @companyofquail to ask how it is all going? Wishing you success in your venture and seriously considering ordering ahead of time.


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## companyofquail (May 9, 2021)

Brobdingnagian said:


> Circling back on this @companyofquail to ask how it is all going? Wishing you success in your venture and seriously considering ordering ahead of time.


unfortunately; the controller is on a slight delay due to a death in the family of one of the team members. i am wishing him well and giving him some space to attend to himself and his family. according to him we should be back on track within 2 weeks. these things can sometimes take longer than one suspects... 

hopefully i will have something positive to post here by late may. thank you for checking in!


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## companyofquail (Jul 16, 2021)

Just wanted to give everyone an update. I have been trying to source chips for 2 months and the last info I got from stm is 2 years. So unfortunately I am not sure how long it will be before the fader modules are available unless we can find a similar chip with the same size or smaller footprint.


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## colony nofi (Jul 16, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> Just wanted to give everyone an update. I have been trying to source chips for 2 months and the last info I got from stm is 2 years. So unfortunately I am not sure how long it will be before the fader modules are available unless we can find a similar chip with the same size or smaller footprint.


Yeah - there are a bunch of chips right now that are hard to get for EVERYONE. Supply chains have been effected by two fires at one massive plant in Japan which supplies a huge amount of the pro audio (and car!) industry. I've spoken to folk at Focusrite and Sennheiser who are really feeling it. It means some of their gear is staring at 9month waits for supply to their suppliers!

So the smaller buyers are REALLY stuffed.

And this isn't even taking into account probs across the industry caused by covid.

I feel for you, and hope you find a way.


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