# Help me with Valhalla choices



## Jackdaw (May 8, 2020)

I've been looking for new reverb(s) lately. I'm not too pleased with (or I simply cannot use...) Studio One 4's stock reverbs (convolution one is quite ok for me).
Because everyone and their sister has Valhalla stuff I thought that I cannot go too wrong with those.
I'm quite short on money once again so I don't want to buy multiple reverbs (even when they are Valhalla cheap).

I'm _mainly_ doing cinematic/hybrid orchestral stuff so I don't need hyperrealistic reverbs, I use them more for creating atmospheres (you know, that same old epic spacey whatsisit). I understand that ValhallaRoom is kind of de facto reverb nowadays, but I have heard good things about ValhallaShimmer which in my understanding is supposed to give some colour to reverb. I think I would basically need both, because I understand that Room would be the "clear" one.
Other thing is that in addition to reverb buses, I quite much put reverbs straight to tracks so what I would need is also EQuing the reverb and Im not sure if Room has reverb eq(/hi-low cuts).

So any suggestions to my situation? Am I missing some crucial other reverb in Valhalla family? Could I go just with Room and when needed add colour with tube saturator? Im so clueless here.


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

I would look at Room and VintageVerb. The first one is a de facto standard and can do most duties well. VintageVerb is slightly more characteristic and emulates 70s, 80s and “current” digital lush verbs (“Lexicon”). I like VintageVerb better for electronic stuff, but you can’t go wrong with either.

For Shimmer like effects, I’d have a look at Audiority XenoVerb. It was on sale the other day for $9.99 and really shines in the more esoteric infinite reverb department. More excellent cheap options? Exponential Audio’s PhoenixVerb was/is on sale for $9.99 and is equally brilliant sounding as the Valhallas. PhoenixVerb was developed by the guy that did the original Lexicon plugins.

Outside of Valhalla, UVI have a sale currently of their excellent SparkVerb ($49).


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## fretti (May 8, 2020)

I think Valhalla offers fully usable demo versions of all products. So you can also try the ones your interested in for free and see if they are suitable for your workflow/needs  

For alternatives you can also check out these threads:





Good Algorithmic Reverb Suggestions?


What are some good Algorithmic reverbs for orchestral music? Also, what is your approach to using reverb on wet samples? I have been primarily using Spaces 2 reverb and using this for its ER and Tail for the EWHO. However, more wet sample libraries such as the BBCSO already have lots of ER...




vi-control.net









Reverb for dummies


After reading carefully the thread about good algorithmic reverb suggestions by @John R Wilson, I am considering to buy PhoenixVerb for $10! How wrong a $10 choice could ever be? But this time it's not about the money, I just wanted first to clear some things in my mind. 1) All major DAWs...




vi-control.net


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## José Herring (May 8, 2020)

I'd probably stay away from the tube saturation. Maybe you can add chorus to modulate the tail of the verb. I've done that but don't really like it that much. 

As you say, ValhallaRoom and Shimmer are quite different. Personally I didn't get on with Shimmer but many people do. I love ValhallaRoom. It's nearly the only reverb I use. Personally you'd have to go into the UAD level with Lexicon 224 or Breeze to get something as good as that little $50 reverb. 

On the other had for FX reverb I'm looking at Rob Papen Black Hole. Valhalla's tail is good up until about 5 or 6 secs then it gets muddy and has this cloudy misty quality to it. But, it's great and clean up until that point. So for long drawn out FX verbs it's not so great at that but for standard hall verbs and plates, hardly any better.


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

VST Plugins, Synth Presets, Effects, Virtual Instruments, Music


VST Plugins, Synth Presets, Effects, Virtual Instruments, Music Plugins from Pluginboutique




www.pluginboutique.com





Seriously good deal for 9.99. Incredibly good actually. The Audiority XenoVerb sale is no longer there


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## Sunny Schramm (May 8, 2020)

I hate the average sound of shimmer-effects. They sound always the same to me no matter what source you use. BUT I love the valhalla shimmer where the normal shimmer effect is just one of the presets. the other presets are amazing! cool pitch-reverbs for dark and bladerunner 2049 like pads or highly transparent reverbs for piano or acoustic guitars from heaven <3 Room I see a lot in orchestral productions - will give it a try in the future.


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

Jackdaw said:


> I'm _mainly_ doing cinematic/hybrid orchestral stuff so I don't need hyperrealistic reverbs, I use them more for creating atmospheres (you know, that same old epic spacey whatsisit). I understand that ValhallaRoom is kind of de facto reverb nowadays


Given the type of composing you do, I also strongly suggest you look into the non-pro version of LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven. Watch Cory Pelizzari’s video on it. It is only slightly costlier than one Valhalla verb and I think it sounds even better.


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## Consona (May 8, 2020)

Yes, Valhalla offers demos, I demoed their stuff quite a lot before buying anything, the Vintage Verb sounded best to me, so I bought that one.

It has high and low cut, but I use EQ before and after reverb anyway. And I put saturation before and after reverb as well.


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## Vin (May 8, 2020)

I think that for $100, Valhalla Room & Valhalla Delay is a really great combo. Shimmer is great, but it's a one-trick pony. For creating atmospheres, Delay works great as well as there are many special FX presets included so you can go quite experimental...and it also does reverb. Very versatile plugin.

For standard duties, Valhalla Room is their best choice, Vintage is great but it's a specific taste that you either like or you don't (older Lexicons, EMT 250 etc.).

Also, here's a Valhalla Room preset I created that some people seemed to really like that you can try.


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## Jackdaw (May 8, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> VST Plugins, Synth Presets, Effects, Virtual Instruments, Music
> 
> 
> VST Plugins, Synth Presets, Effects, Virtual Instruments, Music Plugins from Pluginboutique
> ...



I know, I just have some mental problems with iLok and the fact that you get licence for just one single computer, that somehow touches my nerves. I might be stupid with this but I'm trying to avoid yet another daemon/software/provider/hassle in my system. That's why I kind of chose to go Valhalla route.


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## cqd (May 8, 2020)

Yeah, vintage verb is better than room..phoenix verb is very nice too though, especially for a tenner..Of the three I'd probably go with that if I'd to pick one..

Edit..just saw your not liking ilok post..


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## peladio (May 8, 2020)

cqd said:


> Yeah, vintage verb is better than room..



Why is it better?


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

peladio said:


> Why is it better?


Room is VERY transparent, VVV adds more “character”. Some people (myself included) happen to like that sound better


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## Jackdaw (May 8, 2020)

And I thought I just need to decide between room and shimmer


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

cqd said:


> phoenix verb is very nice too though, especially for a tenner..Of the three I'd probably go with that if I'd to pick one..


For a tenner I’d put up with iLok. But to each his own of course. If that means you have to work with Valhalla Room, or VVV, there isn’t really a problem  

PS: my favorite (and most used) Valhalla plugin is UberMod. Brilliant and unique. It even does pretty convincing reverbs


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

Jackdaw said:


> And I thought I just need to decide between room and shimmer


Get Room or VVV for “day to day reverb duties”, not Shimmer.

Once you’re ready to invest in a more specialized type reverb like Shimmer, again also have a look at XenoVerb and Valhalla UberMod. The latter can produce WAY more interesting and different effects than Shimmer. (IMHO of course, and I prefer Audiority’s stuff like the aforementioned XenoVerb but also Grainspace, Polaris etc.)


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## TomislavEP (May 8, 2020)

I'm extensively using Valhalla DSP products in my work, Room and Shimmer in particular. IMO, Room is a sure bet for creating a cohesive acoustic space and its quality is indeed in the same class as some much more costly and talked about products out there. The Shimmer is a special effect thing but a very important "secret ingredient", for me at least. The VintageVerb could be seen as the Swiss Army Knife of the sort, also suitable for those who're more in pop-rock productions.

Personally, I would very much like to see a true stereo convolution plugin from Valhalla DSP in the future. I prefer to use algorithmic ones for the actual reverberation and spacing but IR's can be a great tool for sound design. Though there are plenty of Kontakt libraries that include IR's, it would be interesting to see Valhalla's take on this, even just in a form of the engine itself.


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## Jackdaw (May 8, 2020)

So ValhallaRoom it was, already bought is so I can fiddle with it during weekend. After reading these messages I'm confident it will be good all-arounder reverb for me. Specialities may follow later if needed.
Thanks all for info and comments!


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

Great choice! This will be a staple in your DAW for the next decade. Have fun!!!


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## cqd (May 8, 2020)

peladio said:


> Why is it better?



Isn't it technically better, as in room adds artifacts or something that Vintage doesn't..
(This is based on a scientific looking post I saw somewhere recently..)
And you get more of a range of sounds out of vintage..


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2020)

Both sound good. Valhalla Room did pretty good in @christianhenson ’s Blind Reverb test. I believe it beat the Bricasti M7. So there’s that. Not bad for a $50 piece of software. I would very much love Christian to do another one of those, as they are so fun to watch and at the same time really really fascinating as well. Especially in that second blind test they did, there’s a bit fairly at the beginning of the video where they’re listening to just the wet plugins’ outputs. The differences were shocking to me, I did not at all see that coming.


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## Henning (May 8, 2020)

And don't forget the Valhalla plugins are very gentle on cpu. There's virtually no project where I don't use at least on of the Valhalla plugins.


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## jcrosby (May 8, 2020)

Jackdaw said:


> I've been looking for new reverb(s) lately. I'm not too pleased with (or I simply cannot use...) Studio One 4's stock reverbs (convolution one is quite ok for me).
> Because everyone and their sister has Valhalla stuff I thought that I cannot go too wrong with those.
> I'm quite short on money once again so I don't want to buy multiple reverbs (even when they are Valhalla cheap).
> 
> ...


I have Room, Plate, Vintage Verb, and Delay. Room and Vintage Verb I use most. (VH delay too, it's my default delay these days.) Room's a great all around workhorse reverb, Vintage Verb is as well but has its _own_ sound. I'd demo both and see if you like one more than the other...

Never picked up Shimmer. I know it's well liked, but a lot more niche. You might actually demo VH delay alongside it. Not only is it a great delay, you can turn it into a reverb and do some pitch shifting in it (covering some of Shimmer's tricks), plus it has saturation and different delay algroithms... It's the most bang-for-my-buck VH plugin I have. That said I wouldn't use it to replace one of the other two. It's not as _reverby_ as Room and VV, basically VH delay has its own place...

One other thing you might check out is Raum by NI, (I'm pretty sure this is the reverb and delay section of Massive X). I slept on this for a while after they gave it away free when first released. I've been using it in my template lately though and really like it for big atmospheric washes, synths, etc.. Like Shimmer it's more of an SFX reverb that does big airy/spacey atmospheric soundscapes really well as well as delay.. It's $49 so the same ballpark...

I'd demo a bunch and see which two stand out to you...


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## jcrosby (May 8, 2020)

cqd said:


> Isn't it technically better, as in room adds artifacts or something that Vintage doesn't..
> (This is based on a scientific looking post I saw somewhere recently..)
> And you get more of a range of sounds out of vintage..


That post is utter BS. The guy got 86'd becuase he was totally disrespectful of other opinons and wouldn't shut up about his so called "research". (For the better AFAIC. Forums can be a source of toxic misinformation. That thread was a prime example.)

Just because you see something in a spectrogram does not mean you can necessarily hear it, let alone a graph says nothing about how something actually sounds. If you watch SF's blind reverb they have great things to say about Room when listening blind. And as pointed out above it beats the Bricasti, and one picks it over Lexicon, another picks it over their beloved TC6000.


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## José Herring (May 8, 2020)

Sunny Schramm said:


> I hate the average sound of shimmer-effects. They sound always the same to me no matter what source you use. BUT I love the valhalla shimmer where the normal shimmer effect is just one of the presets. the other presets are amazing! cool pitch-reverbs for dark and bladerunner 2049 like pads or highly transparent reverbs for piano or acoustic guitars from heaven <3 Room I see a lot in orchestral productions - will give it a try in the future.


Oooh, what is the pitch reverb you speak of?


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## kgdrum (May 8, 2020)

Since the OP has a limited budget I recommend doing this in a few steps
For what you’re doing and since PhoenixVerb is on sale for $10 grab it immediately!
I love & have Valhalla Room,Vintage Verb and Ubermod they’re great reverbs but for what you do PhoenixVerb imo is the better fit.
Next I’d go with VVV it would be a great character reverb alternative. 
6 months from now when Black Friday comes Seventh Heaven usually sells for $49,
If the OP then had PhoenixVerb VVV and Seventh Heaven they’d have great reverb arsenal and only have spent $110.

🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶


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## Jackdaw (May 9, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> One other thing you might check out is Raum by NI, (I'm pretty sure this is the reverb and delay section of Massive X). I slept on this for a while after they gave it away free when first released. I've been using it in my template lately though and really like it for big atmospheric washes, synths, etc.



I actually got Raum when it was free. I like it a lot, but like you said, it is more SFXesque reverb. You really can make clear crispy epic things (plus weird manipulations) with it for its price, but at least I cannot use it as "everyday reverb". I already bought Valhalla Room yesterday and testing it now and so far I'm quite impressed with it (especially for the price).


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## jcrosby (May 9, 2020)

Jackdaw said:


> I actually got Raum when it was free. I like it a lot, but like you said, it is more SFXesque reverb. You really can make clear crispy epic things (plus weird manipulations) with it for its price, but at least I cannot use it as "everyday reverb". I already bought Valhalla Room yesterday and testing it now and so far I'm quite impressed with it (especially for the price).


Nice. VH Room's a great reverb... I assumed you were interested in Shimmer for more soundscpae-ish stuff. My bad... If you find yourself interested in a second one at some point VV's worth demoing. Room does clean/classic beautifully, VV has darker and cozier sound, and the two make a great pair.


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## cqd (May 9, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Just because you see something in a spectrogram does not mean you can necessarily hear it, let alone a graph says nothing about how something actually sounds. If you watch SF's blind reverb they have great things to say about Room when listening blind. And as pointed out above it beats the Bricasti, and one picks it over Lexicon, another picks it over their beloved TC6000.



We have to trust the science..
But wouldn't it make sense too though that they maybe improved on room with vintage?..
There's more variety with it too definitely..


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## doctoremmet (May 9, 2020)

TomislavEP said:


> Personally, I would very much like to see a true stereo convolution plugin from Valhalla DSP in the future. I prefer to use algorithmic ones for the actual reverberation and spacing but IR's can be a great tool for sound design.


I am in agreement with you on this, but also strongly advise you to have a look at LiquidSonic’s Seventh Heaven (light version, $69). It has that Bricasti M7 gorgeousness, and way more tweakability than your normal convo reverbs. I feel it would really add something to your arsenal, having read some of your posts and listened to some of your music.


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## cqd (May 9, 2020)

All the liquidsonic reverbs are quality..the fusion impulses or whatever they use are very good..


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## Afanasyev (May 9, 2020)

Vin said:


> For creating atmospheres, Delay works great as well as there are many special FX presets included so you can go quite experimental...and it also does reverb. Very versatile plugin.


Double this million times. Valhalla Delay almost instantly became my main tool in creating atmospheres, drones, pads e.t.c. I higly rescpect all of the Valhalla plugins, but this Delay is easily best 50$ ever spent on music software, so I higly reccomend it as well, especially when ultra realism is not your aim.


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## Consona (May 9, 2020)

peladio said:


> Why is it better?


VVV and Plate sounded "nice" to me, Room sounded somewhat sterile.


TomislavEP said:


> Personally, I would very much like to see a true stereo convolution plugin from Valhalla DSP in the future.


Valhalla reverbs are true stereo.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 9, 2020)

With Valhalla Delay, one of the best plugins on the market I think, at any price, let alone $50, you may often not even need a reverb. In fact, it has a basic room reverb built in. But the main reason is that reverbs can wash out a mix and/or muddy an instrument, whereas delays can be more controlled- or used as an effect. At least for the hybrid aspect, Delay > Room or VintageVerb, in my opinion.

I don’t own Room, but I tried it out. I much preferred alternatives.


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## Mornats (May 9, 2020)

I was just casually browsing this thread, realised I'd never looked at Valhalla Delay (just another delay yeah?) then found their video.



Damn, this sounds amazing and to answer my question, no, not just another delay.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 9, 2020)

It's not just another delay. It's a brilliant work of art (functionally, if nothing else) that everyone should own. Only $50.

It's even been improved since launch, with additional modes. For free.


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## jcrosby (May 9, 2020)

cqd said:


> We have to trust the science..
> But wouldn't it make sense too though that they maybe improved on room with vintage?..
> There's more variety with it too definitely..


What science though? Graphs tell you nothing without context, and that context would be an audio file illustrating the supposed "fizz" this person kept clamoring on about. Without audio supporting an argument a spectrogram is just a picture.

Let me offer some examples of how an audio visualization is just an image without context.


If you were shown a spectrogram of a song you'd heard, but had never looked at the song before in a spectrogram how could you tell what song it is you were being shown?
If you look at an FFT analyzer graph of a mix can you tell what genre it is? Can you identify the song by the FFT?
Could you successfully mix a song or album with no sound whatsoever, only by using a spectrogram?
Not to be cheeky but... The person in question made their initial "case" based on a blog entry from Spitfire where SF stated VH Room had "digital fizz".

The blog entry was made before their blind reverb test. In the blind test they made choices that contradicted their previous statement in the blog. Interestingly it wound up beating out the reverb the blog referred to as_ the favourite of the majority of professionally mixed orchestral film scores._ Despite the test contradicting their previous statement SF were mature enough to post it to YT.

The short version is despite this person clamoring on about their graphs they wouldn't provide audio examples even though a few people asked... Interestingly as soon as it was pointed out the SF's blind test showed different findings this person suddenly changed their opinion about SF, saying something along the lines of 'they didn't know what they were talking about'. (Even though this was the basis of their rant). I'm also being kind here, their choice of words were a lot more mean-spirited.

Again not to sound overly _tangenty... _IMO a blind listening test _is_ the scientific method. It's testing to see if cognitive bias has any influence on auditory perception. A fascinating example of how human hearing is hardwired to be mislead by visual information is the McGurk Effect:





Anyway I'm not intending to come off as feisty.. That thread really bothered me though. It was one of the most disrespectful posts I've seen on here in quite some time and not surprise they were shown the door.

As far as if it's possible that VV is better? Sure, and I'm sure many feel it is... AFAICT however the name suggests it wasn't developed to be "better" but for a very specific purpose... A _vintage vibey_ reverb. I like each equally for different reasons..

Right... Carry on!


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## Technostica (May 9, 2020)

After reading this thread I checked out a review of their delay by a third party and was mightily impressed.
It does a lot and looks intuitive with a great GUI.
One for the future maybe so a case of _*Delayed*_ gratification.


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## bill5 (May 9, 2020)

cqd said:


> We have to trust the science..


No we don't.  To each their own; I trust my ears. I don't give a flip what "science" (supposedly) says.





vitocorleone123 said:


> reverbs can wash out a mix and/or muddy an instrument, whereas delays can be more controlled- or used as an effect.


This should be read early and often. I think a lot of people don't get/appreciate how delay can be used instead of reverb and often to as good or better effect.

As for Valhalla, I think VVV is great, Room didn't do much for me. Nothing against it, and I tend to favor being either a bit heavy-handed with reverb or not even bothering.


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## cqd (May 9, 2020)

I was only taking the piss really lads.. it's not particularly important..I think vintage is more flexible..if you were to only get one I think it might be the better choice..


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## TomislavEP (May 10, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> I am in agreement with you on this, but also strongly advise you to have a look at LiquidSonic’s Seventh Heaven (light version, $69). It has that Bricasti M7 gorgeousness, and way more tweakability than your normal convo reverbs. I feel it would really add something to your arsenal, having read some of your posts and listened to some of your music.



Thanks for the suggestion; I'll look into it. I've heard of LiquidSonic before as the developers of quality convolution plugins. The price of this light version seems OK, considering the fact that I would probably still use algorithmic reverb much more often; as I said earlier, I'm mostly interested in convolution ones for sound design purposes. In the past, I've thought about investing in some more expensive plugin, but I never really liked the idea of using IR's of famous spaces from around the world for the actual reverberation.



> Valhalla reverbs are true stereo.



I've meant to say able to load true stereo IR files.


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## cqd (May 10, 2020)

You might check reverberate by liquidSonic too..


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## doctoremmet (May 10, 2020)

TomislavEP said:


> The price of this light version seems OK, considering the fact that I would probably still use algorithmic reverb much more often; as I said earlier, I'm mostly interested in convolution ones for sound design purposes.


As was I. I gave it a shot after watching Cory Pelizzari’s very enthusiastic review on his YT channel and must say I was amazed by just the very subtle but rich (sounds like a contradiction right?) sound of it. It is also very tweakable and it does not “feel” at all like you’re just dialing in “famous halls from around the globe”. I listened to your Novel Piano track the other day and thought that you might like it. I’m curious what your findings would be.


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## TomislavEP (May 10, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> As was I. I gave it a shot after watching Cory Pelizzari’s very enthusiastic review on his YT channel and must say I was amazed by just the very subtle but rich (sounds like a contradiction right?) sound of it. It is also very tweakable and it does not “feel” at all like you’re just dialing in “famous halls from around the globe”. I listened to your Novel Piano track the other day and thought that you might like it. I’m curious what your findings would be.



Thanks again for mentioning it. I just took a glance at the website and I really like the concept of it as well as the GUI layout and abilities. I'll certainly try the demo version in due time and keep this on my radar, though I have some other software and gear-related investments planned first.

P.S. Sorry for the slight off-topic.


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## doctoremmet (May 10, 2020)

TomislavEP said:


> Thanks again for mentioning it. I just took a glance at the website and I really like the concept of it as well as the GUI layout and abilities. I'll certainly try the demo version in due time and keep this on my radar, though I have some other software and gear-related investments planned first.
> 
> P.S. Sorry for the slight off-topic.


Sure! No reason to rush. You’ve got Valhalla! In time, let me know what you think.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 10, 2020)

Counterpoint (I’ve said elsewhere): I can’t stand Seventh Heaven for what it does to the original sound. I’m someone that prefers more “transparent” reverbs that, to me, don’t change the original sound, but enhance it. Like Exponential reverbs. But even Valhalla, and others, too.

Listen to a bunch of reverbs over time and learn what you like and don’t like about their sound. There’s a reason people tend to accumulate and use several! It’s very subjective.

Valhalla plugins are first rate, priced for “the working” fellow.

There’s at least one company that makes additional presets for Valhalla plugins, if that interests you.


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## Consona (May 11, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I was just casually browsing this thread, realised I'd never looked at Valhalla Delay (just another delay yeah?) then found their video.
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, this sounds amazing and to answer my question, no, not just another delay.



Hehe, same here. Never looked at or searched for any delay, but I've checked some yt videos and damn, this sounds sooo good.


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## kgdrum (May 19, 2020)

This free Valhalla gem might help 










Valhalla Super Massive - Valhalla DSP


Make some space. ValhallaSupermassive has been designed from the ground up for MASSIVE delays and reverbs. Get ready for luscious clouds of reverb, otherworldly delays, and swelling waves of feedback unlike any you’ve heard before. Supermassive has 18 out-of-this-world reverb/delay modes...




valhalladsp.com


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## jcrosby (May 19, 2020)

kgdrum said:


> This free Valhalla gem might help
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did they release this?!!


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## kgdrum (May 19, 2020)

I think today 👍


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## jcrosby (May 19, 2020)

Very cool!


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## TomislavEP (May 20, 2020)

I'll definitely check out this new reverb from Valhalla, though Raum already provides a more otherworldly alternative to the Room and Shimmer reverbs that I use so much. Always interesting to see a new product from Valhalla DSP.


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## vitocorleone123 (May 20, 2020)

SuperMassive is almost a... Relay? Deverb? Hmm. A combination of the two. Also, it's a "clean" one (two?) - as Sean has stated. No lofi, gime, vibe. 

Not even sure I have Raum installed anymore, despite it being free.


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