# I Submitted a 4-Fader MIDIPort Design to PreSonus; (Older thread but device discussion alive)



## PaulieDC (Jun 21, 2021)

This is a thread from last year where PreSonus responded... oddly... to a design I sent in for a 4-fader controller. However, if you jump to this section, the discussion has spun up regarding newer companies that ARE making what PreSonus barked back at me for. Their loss. One of our own members is making a nice 100mm unit called a Fader Pro and a 60mm is in the works (as soon as he gets his hand on some chips!), so click above if interested! Good discussion about new features has sprung up as well.


=====================================================
*ORIGINAL POST from June '21*
Hey all, please read, and I have a favor to ask at the bottom.

OK--I don't need to explain the desire for that simple 100mm fader controller we all want/need/can't believe no one makes one. So I fired up Photoshop and started plunking away... took their FaderPort and mooshed it around until I had a concept for the MIDIPort (I gave it a name so the design would look plausible). It dawned on me that a manufacturer simply needs to see what on earth we are looking for, explain why it's so simple, AND they need to see links to forums for all the folks trying to build these things. Enough already manufacturing world, lets build it, this is one of the easiest to produce! The PDF is attached.

SO, I fired up their Contact Us form on the PreSonus website and submitted my plea along with the attached PDF, which is simply a design of the unit and a bullet list of things we want and why and possible ideas for the final outcome (for instance, I sent this to @Simeon to toe the water and he suggest MIDI jacks as well... sounds good to me, hadn't thought about that). I didn't use their web page for Requests because it seems to go nowhere if you don't get 400 other people voting on it. Fortunately, PreSonus replied! A fella named Max said they always welcome product ideas and he forwarded to the team. Problem is, we all know that and $3.75 gets you a ride on the subway, so I want to follow-up with our own thread and hopefully send them this thread link with responses.

SO, THE FAVOR: if you are interested in a unit like this, just make that known in a quick reply. I want PreSonus to see enthusiasm, especially since this unit is small enough to fit in a backpack. I already explained that we appreciate the nice attempt with the FaderPort 8 and 16 but the footprint is huge and nothing is programmable. BUT, that means they can do this, they already have half the code written.

If you hate the idea, by all means write your thoughts... on a Post-It Note and stick it on your fridge. 

One way or another we are going to get someone to produce this thing.


----------



## mobiuscog (Jun 21, 2021)

Having just spent a chunk of the day looking at the faderport 8 vs the alternatives, measuring desk space and trying to work out how I could manage (and also noticing several UK retailes are showing the faderport 8 as 'discontinued'), I would love to see a 4-fader controller like this. 

I don't need anything for mixing, so 8 faders is too much, but 1 is too little.

I guess I wouldn't mind seeing another faders-worth of space on the right, with transport controls as seen on the existing models, stacked vertically - there would easily be enough space for the six associated controls to be included (stop/play-pause/loop/left/right/record) which could allow some flexibility without any mouse needed whilst not overburdening the controller with all of the other bells and whistles.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jun 21, 2021)

Pretty interesting design Paulie, could see myself grabbing one, especially if it's priced at 99 USD/EUR.


----------



## youngpokie (Jun 21, 2021)

This is wonderful, necessary and at $100 a no-brainer


----------



## Pier (Jun 21, 2021)

Come on Presonus.

WE NEED THIS


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 21, 2021)

How about press button, move relevant fader in order to set CC for that fader?

It would be super quick to “dial in” this way.


----------



## ptram (Jun 21, 2021)

I find four faders the perfect size for everyday use. I would be interested in this controller.

Paolo


----------



## FireGS (Jun 21, 2021)

This would be a 100% buy. Not even a second look or guess. Bonus points for motorized, but not needed.


----------



## kgdrum (Jun 21, 2021)

@PaulieDC
Thanks for doing this,if Presonus makes this it will sell a ton,count me in. 👍
I’d also suggest they release a 4 fader model,6 fader model and a 8 fader model.
I have a FaderCtrl and having more than 4 available faders comes in handy.


----------



## puremusic (Jun 21, 2021)

I'd buy it in a minute.


----------



## robcs (Jun 21, 2021)

I’m in!


----------



## dbudimir (Jun 21, 2021)

Nice!!!! I'd be in.


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 21, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> How about press button, move relevant fader in order to set CC for that fader?
> 
> It would be super quick to “dial in” this way.


I just saw that on Christian Henson's video for the one that someone built for him. Press a button, move the control, done! I like it. Look, if PreSonus actually responds I'll have to get up off the floor, but then I'd bring that idea of yours, and MIDI ports up. This is just a first-whack at an idea., and this kind of feedback is great. Thank you! 👍🏼


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 21, 2021)

FireGS said:


> This would be a 100% buy. Not even a second look or guess. Bonus points for motorized, but not needed.


Question, how does motorized help? Not razzing you, just curious! It'd be nice to keep cost down, but like the original faderport, a wall wart can be optional if you don't need motorized. How does motorized help for expression?


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> @PaulieDC
> Thanks for doing this,if Presonus makes this it will sell a ton,count me in. 👍
> I’d also suggest they release a 4 fader model,6 fader model and a 8 fader model.
> I have a FaderCtrl and having more than 4 available faders comes in handy.


I agree... in that PDF at the very bottom I mentioned an 8-fader version... which means, maybe this thing should be called MIDIPort 4? Allowing 6 and 8, etc...


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 21, 2021)

Sure appreciate all the responses! Come to think of it, I'd buy one too.


----------



## rnb_2 (Jun 21, 2021)

Love this idea and would definitely pick one up if available.


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 22, 2021)

ptram said:


> I find four faders the perfect size for everyday use. I would be interested in this controller.
> 
> Paolo


From the looks of the mock-up the faders would be spaced apart just right if they used a FaderPort case. The big FaderPort 8 is a little too wide. Man I hope they at least get interested in this!


----------



## David Han (Jun 22, 2021)

I'd be in!


----------



## JJDaly (Jun 22, 2021)

Instant purchase, if what you put in the pdf became a real product at €100 👍


----------



## Daniel James (Jun 22, 2021)

Instabuy from me! Nice design, simple but intuitive!

I hope they buy your design and soon!

-DJ


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Jun 22, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Question, how does motorized help? Not razzing you, just curious! It'd be nice to keep cost down, but like the original faderport, a wall wart can be optional if you don't need motorized. How does motorized help for expression?


The reason I liked the motorized faders on the X-Touch compact is not because they follow the CC data (they don't), but they jump to position when I press my preset buttons.
Which brings me to my next thought, is that a button for each fader would be where I give bonus points. I like to have a button that toggles between values 100 and 127 when I press it. Particularly handy for CC7 or CC11 as a quick way of resetting the volume.
Though it was never a behavior I desired until I started doing it.


----------



## jadedsean (Jun 22, 2021)

Count me in too, this is a no brainer fpr PreSonus considering how many in the box composers need this.


----------



## easyrider (Jun 22, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Hey all, please read, and I have a favor to ask at the bottom.
> 
> OK--I don't need to explain the desire for that simple 100mm fader controller we all want/need/can't believe no one makes one. So I fired up Photoshop and started plunking away... took their FaderPort and mooshed it around until I had a concept for the MIDIPort (I gave it a name so the design would look plausible). It dawned on me that a manufacturer simply needs to see what on earth we are looking for, explain why it's so simple, AND they need to see links to forums for all the folks trying to build these things. Enough already manufacturing world, lets build it, this is one of the easiest to produce! The PDF is attached.
> 
> ...


Brilliant !


----------



## jazzman7 (Jun 22, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Hey all, please read, and I have a favor to ask at the bottom.
> 
> OK--I don't need to explain the desire for that simple 100mm fader controller we all want/need/can't believe no one makes one. So I fired up Photoshop and started plunking away... took their FaderPort and mooshed it around until I had a concept for the MIDIPort (I gave it a name so the design would look plausible). It dawned on me that a manufacturer simply needs to see what on earth we are looking for, explain why it's so simple, AND they need to see links to forums for all the folks trying to build these things. Enough already manufacturing world, lets build it, this is one of the easiest to produce! The PDF is attached.
> 
> ...


Excellent!


----------



## LudovicVDP (Jun 22, 2021)

Add a 5th fader. Motorized, that follows the track you're in, for mixer volume.
I'm in. Instant buy.


----------



## easyrider (Jun 22, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> Add a 5th fader. Motorized, that follows the track you're in, for mixer volume.
> I'm in. Instant buy.


Just get a FP8 😂


----------



## Chris Harper (Jun 22, 2021)

I would definitely buy one. That’s pretty much exactly what I’m looking for. I personally have no need for motorized faders, and including them would most certainly drive the price up more than I’d be willing to pay for what I need it to do. There are already other products that serve those needs at higher price points.


----------



## easyrider (Jun 22, 2021)

Chris Harper said:


> I would definitely buy one. That’s pretty much exactly what I’m looking for. I personally have no need for motorized faders, and including them would most certainly drive the price up more than I’d be willing to pay for what I need it to do. There are already other products that serve those needs at higher price points.


Agree…


----------



## el-bo (Jun 22, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> If you hate the idea, by all means write your thoughts... on a Post-It Note and stick it on your fridge.


Don't hate the idea at all. But if i promise to also stick a Post-it to my fridge, could a share a little criticism?


----------



## LudovicVDP (Jun 22, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Just get a FP8 😂


I have it  But then you have to switch between midi cc and mixer.
And when in midi cc mode, you lose all the other functionalities.
And the FP don't follow the channel you're on... Meaning a lot of scrolling when you have a large template.

To me: 4 (3 is actually enough) faders for midi cc and 1 motorized fader for volume that would follow the track you're on.... That's the best of both worlds in a little box.
4 faders, one of them motorized. Nothing more. And I'm happy.


----------



## Studio E (Jun 22, 2021)

I would absolutely buy one for myself and another for my assistant.


----------



## easyrider (Jun 22, 2021)

@PaulieDC

Start a poll to get concrete numbers…..👍





__





Would you buy one of these Midi Controllers?







vi-control.net


----------



## LudovicVDP (Jun 22, 2021)

Just to show off my impressive Paint and Snippin' Tool skills !!
I present to you my dream controller!
3 faders (NOT motorized) for Midi CC. Which midi CC to control is changeable on the spot using the infinite rotary knob above each fader.
And you can save programs to have those 3 faders set up for Spitfire, OT, Mic positions, whatever.

The 4th fader is motorized and control the mixer volume of that track you are working on !! So it follows your selection without the need to scroll. (Unlike the Faderport 8 that, if it is on bank 1-8 and you're working on track 352, requests a lot of scrolling to use the mixer.)


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 22, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> Just to show off my impressive Paint and Snippin' Tool skills !!
> I present to you my dream controller!
> 3 faders (NOT motorized) for Midi CC. Which midi CC to control is changeable on the spot using the infinite rotary knob above each fader.
> And you can save programs to have those 3 faders set up for Spitfire, OT, Mic positions, whatever.
> ...


Love it! I use three faders for expression (in my rookie-ness that is... CCs 11, 1 and vibrato). I don't personally use a 4th _simultaneously, _so the volume idea is great! That can be motorized, and if that requires a PSU, that's no problem for home/studio. On the road with a laptop on battery, you would just forgo the flying fader but still have volume control on that track you're working on, like you said.

@Henrik B. Jensen mentioned earlier "How about press button, move relevant fader in order to set CC for that fader?". That's another great idea, easier and simpler. And like I said @Simeon mentioned MIDI In and Out ports, plenty of room on the rear for that. This is all great feedback!

BTW, your Paint and Snippin' Tool skills are just dandy.


----------



## LudovicVDP (Jun 22, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> BTW, your Paint and Snippin' Tool skills are just dandy.


Thanks


----------



## puremusic (Jun 22, 2021)

I like it. 3 CCs and one volume, that function as such at the same time.. That's a big deal. I like the bit of separation between the CCs and volume control too.


----------



## Minko (Jun 22, 2021)

I've sent Gregor a message.


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 22, 2021)

I tell you, if PreSonus doesn't bite (and I have no expectation, already got a second response about product idea submission violating some-such terms of use, etc), I'm wondering if @christianhenson and the @Spitfire Team and Paul Thomson would consider producing their first piece of kit. This thread could be the collaboration of _all of us_ finetuning the specs, Spitfire could release it and solve the problem even Christian has been trying to solve. Yes, I intentionally linked his account and the Spitfire Team, and I'm hoping they will read my opening post and see what we are all talking about, and MORE importantly, everyone's responses.

The more I think about it, what a perfect not-too-large but vital item to put Spitfire in the hardware game. And this thread links all of us to be in on the project, a VI-Control special edition MIDI controller produced by Spitfire and solving the need we have all been craving. @Mike Greene, you need to be in on this... sorry, I'm pulling out all stops, *we NEED this device.*


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 22, 2021)

puremusic said:


> I like it. 3 CCs and one volume, that function as such at the same time.. That's a big deal. I like the bit of separation between the CCs and volume control too.


Yeah, me too!


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 22, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Don't hate the idea at all. But if i promise to also stick a Post-it to my fridge, could a share a little criticism?


Sure. I'm not professing to be a skilled designer, in fact, this thread is MY first post-it on the fridge, to get the idea going!


----------



## puremusic (Jun 22, 2021)

It's genius is its simplicity. Sometimes less is more. More just gets in the way and overly complicates things.


----------



## Fab (Jun 22, 2021)

looks great, I'd get one!


----------



## pinki (Jun 22, 2021)

Seems like getting this in at $99 is a little low?


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 22, 2021)

pinki said:


> Seems like getting this in at $99 is a little low?


If motorized faders are used, even one, it won't be. That's the one gotcha. BUT, when the original FaderPort came out it was $129 and has one motorized fader, so it can still be reasonably priced, especially compared to what we have now which is nothing. Or the JL Cooper with no USB port. 

I think we'll deal with the price if by some crazy chance we can actually get a company to build it. To me it's a great project for Spitfire... if anyone knows Paul or Christian, please send them a link to this whole nutty idea. Thanks!


----------



## Mithnaur (Jun 22, 2021)

Exactly what I need! I imagine a modular version would be great!


----------



## srh (Jun 22, 2021)

100% buy. I've been looking all over and am close to just making my own with an arduino and a 3d printer.


----------



## newbreednet (Jun 22, 2021)

Yep this is the thing I want!


----------



## el-bo (Jun 22, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Sure. I'm not professing to be a skilled designer, in fact, this thread is MY first post-it on the fridge, to get the idea going!


For me, the issue is with (what I see as) unnecessary bulk/heft. Seems like a lot of space could be saved, especially in the height (also think space could be saved in other areas).

I currently use an AKAI MIDIMIX. Great all-round little controller, but the faders probably only just beat out the little Korgs, in terms of 'throw'. For comparison's sake, using the size of the usb port as a reference, your design is more than 3x as deep.






Apart from the possible ergonomic negatives (Getting past the chin and being able to reach maximum throw might mean having to float the hand/arm, rather than being able to rest on desk), it also reduces the rucksakability (), which is a shame because a controller like this could easily turn any bog-standard, 2-octave mini-key controller into a pretty expressive beast.

Of course, there's nothing with wanting something of this from-factor. It's reminiscent of a full console and definitely looks like a Presonus product. But I'm just curious as to whether users might prefer something with all the functionality of your design, but with a different profile.

This is Monogram's fader unit for it's Creative Console. I show it only as a reference for profile/depth. If there were a mix of the features, functionality and faders of your design, with the profile and portability of the Creative Console (A little added heigh, perhaps, for the extra electronics load), and I reckon this would be the perfect controller for many folk. But in this case, it would perhaps be more of a boutique product than a Presonus thing.








Anyway, just an opinion. Hope you take it in the spirit intended


----------



## muddyblue (Jun 23, 2021)

3-4 Faders, I'm in, Yes!


----------



## Mikro93 (Jun 23, 2021)

Very cool stuff! Yes!


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 23, 2021)

el-bo said:


> For me, the issue is with (what I see as) unnecessary bulk/heft. Seems like a lot of space could be saved, especially in the height (also think space could be saved in other areas).
> ...
> Anyway, just an opinion. Hope you take it in the spirit intended


Of course! Appreciate the feedback.

The height is simply me using the FaderPort as a model for PreSonus, really to show them that the back needs to be simple. If this idea comes together the real design would be much lower. I agree, there's no reason for the bulk.

Otherwise, the #1 goal for this is 100mm faders, without that, the idea is done and over. I have a StudioLogic MixFace and it does SO much in such a small package, I'm amazed. But the short faders, ugh. So that's what sparked the idea in a way.

I did eye the MonogramCC solution, but just the control module is $149 and the three slider module is $119... $270 plus tax, that's looney. And still not 100mm faders.  But the short depth is REALLY nice!


----------



## muddyblue (Jun 23, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Of course! Appreciate the feedback.
> 
> The height is simply me using the FaderPort as a model for PreSonus, really to show them that the back needs to be simple. If this idea comes together the real design would be much lower. I agree, there's no reason for the bulk.
> 
> ...


.. exactly 3-4 of 100mm precision faders is the best. I was also about to buy the Monogram but somehow I think the fader paths were too small, the height was ok but the high price has put me off until now .....


----------



## el-bo (Jun 23, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Of course! Appreciate the feedback.
> 
> The height is simply me using the FaderPort as a model for PreSonus, really to show them that the back needs to be simple. If this idea comes together the real design would be much lower. I agree, there's no reason for the bulk.
> 
> ...


Good to know the height is a temporary feature.

And I agree with the rest i.e Got to be 100mm faders, and the fact that the Monogram stuff is, erm...'interestingly' priced 

I guess my ideal would be the same form-factor as the MIDIMIX (23.9 x 20.1 x 3.0 cm), but with an extension/add-on, like so:









Measuring my unit, replacing the current faders with 100mm would reach to the tops of the lower-row of knobs. So if it were a design like yours, that'd leave roughly another 11cm above, for the extra gubbins. That kind of form factor suits travel and desktop use. Of course, it'd need to be better quality than the Akai unit.

If all falls through with the idea, there's always this:









Sparrow 8x60 MIDI Controller - Etsy


This Gadgets item by TheMIDIMaker has 61 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Prosper, TX. Listed on Dec 1, 2021




www.etsy.com


















Fader caps can be customised:







And it can be had i a range of colours (These show the smaller controller, which unfortunately has shorter faders:

https://prosper3dprinting.com/Gallery/
-----
------


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 23, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Good to know the height is a temporary feature.
> 
> And I agree with the rest i.e Got to be 100mm faders, and the fact that the Monogram stuff is, erm...'interestingly' priced
> 
> ...


Actually I got in touch with him and he’s ready to make me a 100mm fader version once he’s back from vacation.


----------



## Karmand (Jun 23, 2021)

I'm in too.


----------



## dunamisstudio (Jun 23, 2021)

yes


----------



## shropshirelad (Jun 23, 2021)

I'd buy one and then sell my Faderport 8, which is a great bit of kit. Problem is, having used a mouse for over 30 years, I just can't get used to using buttons for control & navigation.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 23, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Actually I got in touch with him and he’s ready to make me a 100mm fader version once he’s back from vacation.


Well, at least you confirmed something I wasn't absolutely sure about I.e that the XL was actually 100mm (It doesn't quite look it). And great that they are back soon. 

Will you go with the flatter, wider fader-caps? They seem the most ergonomic, height-wise and would help to minimize the gap between the faders, making multiple, simultaneous use a little more comfortable.


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 23, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Good to know the height is a temporary feature.
> 
> And I agree with the rest i.e Got to be 100mm faders, and the fact that the Monogram stuff is, erm...'interestingly' priced
> 
> ...


Good info! I'm redoing the design now that PreSonus gave me the Dear John letter... I still have a couple avenues to pursue. I mean, look at all the people carving out homemade versions! I'm ready to go to NAMM and talk with every device manufacturer in person until somebody gets it.

Monogram could do it if they ditch the Apple pricing plan. If they did three 100mm faders with the control module on top I'd pay up to $149 for that. But $149 JUST for the control module... yikes. Thing is, they are selling out with every batch, why SHOULD they drop their price when they don't need to? Phooey.


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 23, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Actually I got in touch with him and he’s ready to make me a 100mm fader version once he’s back from vacation.


What's he charge for it?


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jun 24, 2021)

How about this one (starting around 2 minutes in)?




It's about twice as expensive as *Paulie* asked for, however.

Price: £175









nativeVS







nativevs.bigcartel.com





Best,

Geoff


----------



## muddyblue (Jun 24, 2021)

I would prefer the MIDIPort Prototype II because the price is more real and the design is more beautiful for me.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Good info! I'm redoing the design now that PreSonus gave me the Dear John letter... I still have a couple avenues to pursue. I mean, look at all the people carving out homemade versions! I'm ready to go to NAMM and talk with every device manufacturer in person until somebody gets it.
> 
> Monogram could do it if they ditch the Apple pricing plan. If they did three 100mm faders with the control module on top I'd pay up to $149 for that. But $149 JUST for the control module... yikes. Thing is, they are selling out with every batch, why SHOULD they drop their price when they don't need to? Phooey.


So Presonus knocked you back, huh? Bloody amateurs 

From a purely raw materials point-of-view, the Monogram stuff is certainly enjoying a 'generous' markup. However, the smaller this stuff becomes (Within reason, of course), the more practical and flexible the application. Adding the modularity of it is definitely attractive, as is the general rucksack?DJbag-ability of the setup. As someone who may soon find myself living out of a rucksack, those faders are quite attractive. I'd wish for more throw than they currently have, but perhaps don't nee the granularity that 100mm offers. I'd be happy with 60mm, if they cam in that form-factor.

Anyway, that's kinda irrelevant to the main purpose of this thread.

Seems a solid idea to refine the approach to be exactly the unit you want, then pursue other developers. Might be an idea to first/also contact the guy who makes the bespoke controllers, who i linked to. He seems quite amenable to different ideas and designs


----------



## kgdrum (Jun 24, 2021)

I've been thinking about how obvious it is that so many DAW based musicians would benefit having a tool like this and somehow companies don't see the need.
i can't imagine a smart developer with a strong internet based marketing presence would have any problem reaching midi based musicians everywhere selling a bunch of these while making a nice profit.
It's baffling that someone hasn't already jumped on this.
IMO the profile of a developer we need should have an independant creative streak who also enjoys selling as much as creating. if this was my baby and I was targeting developers the two that for me come to mind that have the personality,drive,tools and know-how to launch something like this would be Troells or Steven Slate.
@Troels Folmann @Steven Slate : How about it guys?
i think they'd understand instantly how many musicians could use this missing midi-link and see how easily it could be inexpensively manufactured with potential revenue that could also help them sell other products with cross marketing exposure.


----------



## Theladur (Jun 24, 2021)




----------



## el-bo (Jun 24, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I've been thinking about how obvious it is that so many DAW based musicians would benefit having a tool like this and somehow companies don't see the need.


I just don't think it's so obvious, outside of the orchestral niche. Not many others have the need for this kind of granularity/resolution, especially in MIDI faders. I reckon most musicians wanting MIDI-control are going to prefer knobs. In the cases where faders are preferred, the ones built into many MIDI keyboards controllers would likely suffice.


----------



## kgdrum (Jun 24, 2021)

@el-bo

Yes i can understand this will be used primarly by Orch. sample users but i like having fader control for manipulating synths & all sorts of samples not just Orchestral samples.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 24, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> @el-bo
> 
> Yes i can understand this will be used primarly by Orch. sample users but i like having fader control for manipulating synths & all sorts of samples not just Orchestral samples.


Of course. And I wasn't poo-pooing the idea (Clearly I'm in support). Just countering the idea of it being an obvious product.


----------



## ennbr (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> If they did three 100mm faders with the control module on top I'd pay up to $149 for that.


The problem I see is the cost of the motorized faders there just to expensive and bring the manufacturing cost way out of the $149 price point your looking at. Then if you add costs for tooling for the case on the order of 30 to 50k for a injection plastic mold they would need to sell quite a few units to break even. A realistic price for a 4 fader unit I would guess would be min $250 most realistically $350. I don't see a market for the product.


----------



## ennbr (Jun 24, 2021)

I did a 60mm for myself a non motorized version 2 years ago that cost less than $50 pretty easy to build. I designed the case in Fusion360 and 3d printed it worked out pretty well.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 24, 2021)




----------



## Eddie Thoneick (Jun 24, 2021)

That's exactly what we need! I can't believe that no-one of the big players is able to make something like this available. Its about time.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 24, 2021)

ennbr said:


> I did a 60mm for myself a non motorized version 2 years ago that cost less than $50 pretty easy to build. I designed the case in Fusion360 and 3d printed it worked out pretty well.


I think that for my current situation, 60mm is going to be the better option. Do you have any pics of the whole unit assembled?


----------



## ennbr (Jun 24, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I think that for my current situation, 60mm is going to be the better option. Do you have any pics of the whole unit assemble


The pics are in the post you quoted


----------



## el-bo (Jun 24, 2021)

ennbr said:


> The pics are in the post you quoted


Haha! Indeed 

It's actually because it seems to be so unexpectedly low-profile that I thought it was missing the bottom part. I guess what I really wanted to see was a side-on view. Either that, or the dimensions would suffice...if you don't mind. Thanks


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 24, 2021)

The "hack" that I created for the faderport was precisely to make something like this. Basically giving me the ability to change the fader into a few different CCs using the buttons on it. Had additional features like it remember where the fader was left for each CC and jumps back (so that you can do 1 pass recording multiple CCs without jumps) and it could go back to the standard operation to use for mixing.

The additional feature that I'd want is having banks. Maybe that big knob, when not changing CCs, could be used to go between different banks with the screen showing which bank you're on. When you press to change CC the number in the screen could flash to let you know you're changing CC and not banks.


----------



## IFM (Jun 24, 2021)

I know some people at Presonus so I'm seeing about getting this kicked up the chain.


----------



## Symfoniq (Jun 24, 2021)

IFM said:


> I know some people at Presonus so I'm seeing about getting this kicked up the chain.


Add me to the insta-buy list.


----------



## ennbr (Jun 24, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Either that, or the dimensions would suffice...if you don't mind.


The case is 82mm wide X 125mm high X 23mm thick


----------



## Tralen (Jun 24, 2021)

Love the concept, and I would use something like this, but I would easily drop one fader for transport controls.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 24, 2021)

ennbr said:


> The case is 82mm wide X 125mm high X 23mm thick


Wow, that's impressively compact. So when are you opening up shop?


----------



## ennbr (Jun 24, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Wow, that's impressively compact. So when are you opening up shop


Sorry I'm really not looking to go into business but I will give you the case STL files to have printed and I have a parts list I put together for DigiKey a vendor in the US. The source code for the teensy processor I had found online and reused. Everything should be in the attached Zip file I won't be supporting this I've built 2 for myself and both are working. I gave the Zip to a friend who also has it running.


----------



## J.K. (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Hey all, please read, and I have a favor to ask at the bottom.
> 
> OK--I don't need to explain the desire for that simple 100mm fader controller we all want/need/can't believe no one makes one. So I fired up Photoshop and started plunking away... took their FaderPort and mooshed it around until I had a concept for the MIDIPort (I gave it a name so the design would look plausible). It dawned on me that a manufacturer simply needs to see what on earth we are looking for, explain why it's so simple, AND they need to see links to forums for all the folks trying to build these things. Enough already manufacturing world, lets build it, this is one of the easiest to produce! The PDF is attached.
> 
> ...


This is brilliant! Exactly what I'm looking for and would be an instant buy. Very professional looking mockup btw.


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 24, 2021)

IFM said:


> I know some people at Presonus so I'm seeing about getting this kicked up the chain.


That'd be great. I'm going to DM you a PDF of the conversation where the cust rep said he's forward it on.


----------



## el-bo (Jun 25, 2021)

ennbr said:


> Sorry I'm really not looking to go into business but I will give you the case STL files to have printed and I have a parts list I put together for DigiKey a vendor in the US. The source code for the teensy processor I had found online and reused. Everything should be in the attached Zip file I won't be supporting this I've built 2 for myself and both are working. I gave the Zip to a friend who also has it running.


Just to clarify that I was joking about you selling assembled units. I also wouldn't have presumed to ask you for the design. However, I'm very grateful that you've offered it.
Will download the file you've embedded to see if it's the kind of thing I can wrap my head around.

Once again, thank-you very much


----------



## Ian Dorsch (Jun 25, 2021)

Yeah, this looks awesome, and would be an insta-buy for me.


----------



## PaulieDC (Oct 25, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> One way or another we are going to get someone to produce this thing.


Ha, I just found/remembered this thread I posted 15 months about approaching PreSonus with a prototype for a 4-fader controller the size of the FaderPort, and the outcome was them replying in the end that I was in some sort of violation for drawing a mockup of the unit that I did in Photoshop. I forgot about the last line I had written in the thread, above. Wellll...

Big shout out to both @audioimperia and @Thundercat because _they _produced this thing! AudioImperia made a bunch and made a _lot _of people happy, but I think it's not a permanent product they can offer given all of the other stuff they produce, and the fuss it takes to build these things. But Thundercat is still at it with a great unit, several models actually, so I'm thankful to both for finally supplying 100mm fader units, I couldn't be happier with mine (which one I bought isn't important, they're both great).

I had originally tried the MIDI guy on Etsy before all of this, and within a couple months those faders felt like a freight train with square wheels, lol... you get what you pay for.

BTW, Thundercat just posted about the global chip shortage affecting production, but he's staying on top of it. 

Apologies in advance if someone else on here is producing CC controllers, by all means, speak up!


----------



## Snarf (Oct 25, 2022)

I'd buy it, especially if it integrates with Studio One. Gap in the market for sure.


----------



## timbit2006 (Oct 25, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Ha, I just found/remembered this thread I posted 15 months about approaching PreSonus with a prototype for a 4-fader controller the size of the FaderPort, and the outcome was them replying in the end that I was in some sort of violation for drawing a mockup of the unit that I did in Photoshop. I forgot about the last line I had written in the thread, above. Wellll...


I've read enough right there to know what type of company Presonus is... I will gladly not buy any of their products. What an absolute joke. That's a very subtle way to threaten a lawsuit


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 25, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Ha, I just found/remembered this thread I posted 15 months about approaching PreSonus with a prototype for a 4-fader controller the size of the FaderPort, and the outcome was them replying in the end that I was in some sort of violation for drawing a mockup of the unit that I did in Photoshop. I forgot about the last line I had written in the thread, above. Wellll...
> 
> Big shout out to both @audioimperia and @Thundercat because _they _produced this thing! AudioImperia made a bunch and made a _lot _of people happy, but I think it's not a permanent product they can offer given all of the other stuff they produce, and the fuss it takes to build these things. But Thundercat is still at it with a great unit, several models actually, so I'm thankful to both for finally supplying 100mm fader units, I couldn't be happier with mine (which one I bought isn't important, they're both great).
> 
> ...


Thanks @PaulieDC for the shout out!

And I agree the Audio Imperia unit looks amazing! I'm humbled to be mentioned in the same breath.

I am more than a bit shocked at Presonus' response; at the very least they should have thanked you for opening their eyes to an untapped market, and *perhaps* not threatened you (omg)...we are living in strange times.

Onwards and upwards!

Best to you all,

Mike


----------



## Kslovelace (Oct 25, 2022)

Looks great! Would love to see something like this, especially from presonus.

Just one thought though. One one of the greatest implementations for these type of controllers was the Behringer BCF2000, which allowed you to not only grab a fader and immediately re assign its CC parameter. But also allowed you to pick the channel it was sent on AND the max and min values it would send for that CC. Wasn’t required as selecting a new cc would default to channel one with a min Val 0 and max Val 127. This addition should be simple and is often overlooked with some of these small footprint controllers. In fact, I only keep the big ugly box around because I haven’t found this flexibility in any other controller since without having to use a software editor. And software based editors don’t work for me because once a company decides to no longer support the product the software usually goes first meaning your left with a controller that is frozen in time. 

This feature has enabled me to work with many instruments that had odd midi implementations over the years. For example dreaded synths that like to map CC 1 backwards mapped to a filter that is open on zero and closed on 127. Gross… this also gives the ability to limit ranges for things like dynamics on brass instruments that may be a little too hot in its upper layers And can be changed back to normal or limited further in about two seconds.

Edit: didn’t realize how old this was. But would still love a controller to replace this eyesore on my desk that has the above features.


----------



## PaulieDC (Oct 25, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> Looks great! Would love to see something like this, especially from presonus.
> 
> Just one thought though. One one of the greatest implementations for these type of controllers was the Behringer BCF2000, which allowed you to not only grab a fader and immediately re assign its CC parameter. But also allowed you to pick the channel it was sent on AND the max and min values it would send for that CC. Wasn’t required as selecting a new cc would default to channel one with a min Val 0 and max Val 127. This addition should be simple and is often overlooked with some of these small footprint controllers. In fact, I only keep the big ugly box around because I haven’t found this flexibility in any other controller since without having to use a software editor. And software based editors don’t work for me because once a company decides to no longer support the product the software usually goes first meaning your left with a controller that is frozen in time.
> 
> ...


No prob! The feedback is still great because Mike @Thundercat can utilize it!


----------



## PaulieDC (Oct 25, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> I've read enough right there to know what type of company Presonus is... I will gladly not buy any of their products. What an absolute joke. That's a very subtle way to threaten a lawsuit


To be fair, it was more of a rejection letter for that reason, not a lawsuit. But still. The first response said they'd forward it on, then I heard nothing, then replied to the same person and got fussed at, etc etc. WEIRD.


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 26, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> Looks great! Would love to see something like this, especially from presonus.
> 
> Just one thought though. One one of the greatest implementations for these type of controllers was the Behringer BCF2000, which allowed you to not only grab a fader and immediately re assign its CC parameter. But also allowed you to pick the channel it was sent on AND the max and min values it would send for that CC. Wasn’t required as selecting a new cc would default to channel one with a min Val 0 and max Val 127. This addition should be simple and is often overlooked with some of these small footprint controllers. In fact, I only keep the big ugly box around because I haven’t found this flexibility in any other controller since without having to use a software editor. And software based editors don’t work for me because once a company decides to no longer support the product the software usually goes first meaning your left with a controller that is frozen in time.
> 
> ...


Hi KS Lovelace,

Yes I am very interested in your idea here. It is absolutely something I would consider attempting to implement on the Fader Pro software; I think I just need some more clarity on how it works.

Are you saying you can just set the low/high for a CC and then that's it? What were you saying about resetting 0 and 127; I didn't quite understand how that integrates or is implemented.

Since there are 8 different "scenes" or configurations of CC numbers/names in the Fader Pro, I'm imagining it would make sense to be able to set these ranges into the scenes permanently? So anytime you call up a scene for a particular library, it remembers the ranges?

And if I understand you, you'd like the CC ranges to reset anytime you change to another CC?

Any more clarity you can provide would be super helpful, and if you want to PM me or even call me on the phone I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

For sure I am not looking forward to figuring out how to integrate another feature into the scene editor, but hey this is what progress is all about lol.

Thanks for your time and suggestion.

Mike
MusioTech

PS - what you mentioned about not having PC software becoming defunct or obsolete so you can't program the unit anymore - this is exactly why the Fader Pro doesn't use a computer interface. It has its own dedicated onboard microcontroller and you program it on the device itself; that's it


----------



## Denkii (Oct 26, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Hey all, please read, and I have a favor to ask at the bottom.
> 
> OK--I don't need to explain the desire for that simple 100mm fader controller we all want/need/can't believe no one makes one. So I fired up Photoshop and started plunking away... took their FaderPort and mooshed it around until I had a concept for the MIDIPort (I gave it a name so the design would look plausible). It dawned on me that a manufacturer simply needs to see what on earth we are looking for, explain why it's so simple, AND they need to see links to forums for all the folks trying to build these things. Enough already manufacturing world, lets build it, this is one of the easiest to produce! The PDF is attached.
> 
> ...


All of this sounds good but I would only buy another controller from PreSonus if they allow us to set up the CC channels these faders respond to directly instead of having them pre-set up like in midi mode for the bigger faderports!


----------



## Kslovelace (Oct 26, 2022)

Thundercat said:


> Hi KS Lovelace,
> 
> Yes I am very interested in your idea here. It is absolutely something I would consider attempting to implement on the Fader Pro software; I think I just need some more clarity on how it works.
> 
> ...


Hey Mike, 

The old behringer units also had “scenes” or “presets” and a microcontroller onboard. So the unit is functional today though the unit was abandon 10ish years ago. Iirc, The software editor stopped working when apple moved away from the MAC OS cats. It really is a brilliant controller, but boy does it show its age… I’ve also had to open it up and fix/ re-solder a few things so I imagine the time it has left is limited.

Some clarity for programming:

If i hold the edit button and move a fader I enter edit mode for that fader. With the encoder I can then select what type of message the fader sends (PC,CC,NRPN,Etc..) along with which channel it is sent on. If I select CC for message, I then select which CC it sends. If I exit edit mode at this point, the fader will transmit The CC I chose as you would expect it to be, fader at the bottom is 0 and fader at the top is 127. If I was to stay in edit mode however, I would then select what I want the min value to be, followed by what I want the max value to be, esentially enabling me to “scale” or “invert” the fader. If I exit edit mode after selecting new min and Max values, they are saved with that fader and with that “scene” or “preset”. Turning the unit off or changing scenes and returning would result in the fader acting the same way I edited it. 

If I wanted to now change the fader to control a different CC, going back into edit mode and selecting a new CC for that fader would automatically reset the min and max ranges set for the prior CC back to default range. This is great because I wouldn’t want a reduced range or inverted range for a different CC and having to undo those edits would create two additional steps that are unnecessary most of the time. 

A major difference with this controller vs. newer smaller units is it had 8 encoders. So these options were spread over the 8. example:
Encoder 1= Channel number
Encoder 2= Message type
Encoder 3= message value 
Encoder4/5= message min and max 

This makes editing very fast. And there are times where if I need to temporarily control something it is faster to just edit a fader on the fly and then change it back when done than it is to change scenes back and forth. 

I hope this helps add some clarity. If not shoot me a PM and I’m more than happy to clarify via different means. Additionally, If I can help clarify anything else let me know. 

Thanks for reaching out,

Kevin.


----------



## ScoringFilm (Oct 26, 2022)

Don't know if it's already been posted on here. What about this one?

£89.99














USB MIDI Controlller 4 Faders 4 knob programmable CC#/Range DAW 100mm faders | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for USB MIDI Controlller 4 Faders 4 knob programmable CC#/Range DAW 100mm faders at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.



www.ebay.co.uk


----------



## Kslovelace (Oct 26, 2022)

ScoringFilm said:


> Don't know if it's already been posted on here. What about this one?
> 
> £89.99
> 
> ...


This looks like a great option. Any personal experience with this unit by chance? 

Would be interested build quality/ how well it holds up after a period of daily use.


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 26, 2022)

Kslovelace said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> The old behringer units also had “scenes” or “presets” and a microcontroller onboard. So the unit is functional today though the unit was abandon 10ish years ago. Iirc, The software editor stopped working when apple moved away from the MAC OS cats. It really is a brilliant controller, but boy does it show its age… I’ve also had to open it up and fix/ re-solder a few things so I imagine the time it has left is limited.
> 
> ...


I’ll look at what you shared and see if I can understand how it might work on the current product I offer.

I’ll also reach out if I have more questions.

Thanks!


----------



## Thundercat (Oct 26, 2022)

ScoringFilm said:


> Don't know if it's already been posted on here. What about this one?
> 
> £89.99
> 
> ...


This looks nice.

What I have a hard time with is pressing the button 6-7 times to access various functions. It’s one if the reasons I added a screen to the Fader Pro, to make it easy.

Price is nice.


----------



## greggybud (Oct 26, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> I had originally tried the MIDI guy on Etsy before all of this, and within a couple months those faders felt like a freight train with square wheels, lol... you get what you pay for.


I don't mean to derail this thread, but can you give a link to this person? I think there is more than 1 doing it on Etsy with 3D printing, but mine works just as good as the day I got it. 100mm sliders 5 knobs. The big drawback is if you want to change CCs then it's a hassle. Certainly nothing like the feel of an $800 Fader Master, but definitely no square wheels...yet.

I think I have seen this is Etsy...








Sparrow 4x100mm MIDI controller


This versatile and compact MIDI controller comes with 4, 100mm travel fader and is the perfect studio addition for audio creators, sound producers, music composers, and more! MIDI compliant and compatible with many major DAWs (Logic Pro X, Kontakt, Ableton, Cakewalk, and more. For a more...




themidimaker.com


----------



## Windbag (Oct 26, 2022)

Just stumbled across this guy while researching the Monogram CC stuff (which in itself might warrant a look as small footprint, configurable faders)



Nuances Controller – hand made @ home by Pierre with love





...neat idea to make the faders work for configuration as well as the actual input, and the little OLED goes a long way toward showing what was outlined in that pdf.


----------



## dunamisstudio (Oct 27, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Just stumbled across this guy while researching the Monogram CC stuff (which in itself might warrant a look as small footprint, configurable faders)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the one Christian Henson was showing in a midi controller video he did couple months ago.


----------

