# When composers build upon existing works ...



## Troels Folmann (Mar 1, 2021)

An interesting little tale.

John Williams obviously did a fantastic job on Star Wars - and within this encyclopedia of orchestral awesomeness there are a couple of interesting nods to other composers. Many often refer to Holst/Mars, but another direct reference is Korngold/Kings Row



I think he elevated the Korngold theme, but what's even more interesting is that he asked to do so:



I am wondering what other references exist like this. Where composers build upon existing works and elevated them?


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## CT (Mar 1, 2021)

First thing that comes to mind is what Vaughan Williams did with the many old melodies he collected throughout his life, from folk tunes to "the" Tallis theme. Whether the grandiose architecture of that latter example or just setting a discovered melody in beautiful four parts for his hymnal project, he enshrined all that older material which may otherwise have faded into obscurity.


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## CT (Mar 1, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> Bartok


Uh... yes what about him? He did indeed also draw from folk sources.


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## creativeforge (Mar 1, 2021)

Troels Folmann said:


> An interesting little tale.
> 
> John Williams obviously did a fantastic job on Star Wars - and within this encyclopedia of orchestral awesomeness there are a couple of interesting nods to other composers. Many often refer to Holst/Mars, but another direct reference is Korngold/Kings Row
> 
> ...



- "If there's ONE thing that you would like to be remembered for, or one project that you have done, or that you have yet to do - what would it be?"
- "Raising my kids."

Best answer, EVER! 💛 

Hope you get to do it, Mr Lucas, as much as you can, and succeed/ It's the best thing a father can aspire to.


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## brek (Mar 1, 2021)

Here's another one from JW that has stuck deeply with me since hearing it in person 12 years and change ago:


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## brek (Mar 1, 2021)

Another angle:


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## muk (Mar 2, 2021)

A cool one is the theme for 'Knight Rider' by Stu Phillips. Anyone remember it?



The theme is taken literally from a ballet by romantic composer Leo Délibes:



It's transformed into something completely different and new here.


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## re-peat (Mar 2, 2021)

A link between Korngold and Williams that is much less talked about — I’ve never seen it mentioned in a YT-video or here on V.I. anyway, despite the countless efforts of various idiots all over the globe who are trying desperately to prove what a shameless hack Williams is — but one that may also be just a bit less innocent than the “Kings Row” inspiration, is Williams’ cue “Hook-napped” (from “Hook”) the first half of which bears much more than a superficial resemblance to Korngold’s “Escape From The Galleys” from the brilliant “Sea Hawk” score. It is, in fact, essentialy … the same music.

E.W. Korngold: *“Escape From The Galleys”* (from “The Sea Hawk”, 1940)
J. Williams: *“Hook-napped”* (first half) (from “Hook”, 1995)

The reason I’ve always considered the “Kings Row” connection totally ‘innocent’ (and any suggestion of plagiarism on Williams’ part incredibly stupid and ignorant) is because, in that case, Korngold’s music is little more than a seed from which Williams grew his own majestic tree. He starts off with the same 5 notes as Korngold does, sure, but the real exhilarating and unique magic of the “Star Wars” theme, and which is all 100% pure Williams, occurs _after_ those 5 notes.

‘Innocent’ also because the Korngold template was obviously suggested to Williams, as Lucas again confirms in the above video, and the composer was still at a stage in his career when any such suggestion probably carried much weight.

By the time he wrote “Hook” however, he had developed into an unprecedented successful film composer, an icon, a monument of the profession and a near infallible master of film music — certainly no longer the green-ish composer you can send home with a set of very specific instructions regarding the sort of music you want for your film —, and I’m not sure if even Spielberg, at that point, would still dare to instruct Williams what he should write and how he should write it, let alone give him specific cues from older film music (in this case “Sea Hawk”) that were to be used as a template for new Williams music.

So it’s unclear why (the first half of) “Hook-napped” ended up being the straight Korngold-copy which it is. The more so because the biggest influence on much of the “Hook” music (particularly the Tinkerbell cues) — I’m talking about Debussy’s “Jeux” — is perfectly assimilated, transformed and completely re-invented into vintage and superb Williams-isms. (Some of Williams’ greatest ideas ever can be found in that score, in my opinion.)

Maybe it is a nod, after all. Another affectionate salute from the great Williams to the great Korngold. It could very well be, couldn’t it? (Also because “Sea Hawk” is a pirate movie, and so is much of “Hook”.)

Talking about Williams affectionately saluting esteemed colleagues and predecessors: there’s the boisterous Tchaikovsky pastiche in “Home Alone” (“Holiday Flight”), the wonderful Berlioz-references in “The Last Crusade” (“Scherzo For Motorcycle & Orchestra”) and the many Prokofiev-inspired stylings in his midseason music (especially in the orchestral marches he used to write, like “March Of The Villains” from “Superman" and “The Ewok Parade” from “Return Of The Jedi”).

_


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## boinzy (Mar 6, 2021)

Hmmm... not sure if this counts, but I was watching a short video essay this morning on the influence that Polish Composer Krzysztof Penderecki (Polymorphia) had on Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood. Greenwood eventually composed his own "48 Responses to Polymorphia."

Elevated? You be the judge.


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## GeorgeHirschmann (Mar 12, 2021)

re-peat said:


> A link between Korngold and Williams that is much less talked about — I’ve never seen it mentioned in a YT-video or here on V.I. anyway, despite the countless efforts of various idiots all over the globe who are trying desperately to prove what a shameless hack Williams is — but one that may also be just a bit less innocent than the “Kings Row” inspiration, is Williams’ cue “Hook-napped” (from “Hook”) the first half of which bears much more than a superficial resemblance to Korngold’s “Escape From The Galleys” from the brilliant “Sea Hawk” score. It is, in fact, essentialy … the same music.
> 
> E.W. Korngold: *“Escape From The Galleys”* (from “The Sea Hawk”, 1940)
> J. Williams: *“Hook-napped”* (first half) (from “Hook”, 1995)
> ...


There is an entire community dedicated to discovering plagiarisms of John Williams, and who could do the same with any other great composer. Williams is acutely aware of the entire history of European concert music as well as film music, and so as a result is obviously influenced by various composers at times. It is impossible NOT to write something that resembles something else in tonal music nowadays, with the sheer quantity of music that now exists. And yet William's own style is distinctive, powerful and immediately recognizable. Someone pointing out a steal from this or that should instead look at all the original main themes he composed which are among the greatest in all film scoring, as well as the overall style which has influenced film music as much as Herrmann.


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## Will Blackburn (Mar 14, 2021)

Horner? https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20214-the-ultimate-james-horners-plagiarism-list/


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## BenG (Mar 14, 2021)

Not sure if related, but I always thought this nod the Tchaikovsky's Trepak was interesting...



Never understood why not use the real piece from The Nutcracker.


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## GeorgeHirschmann (Mar 15, 2021)

Will Blackburn said:


> Horner? https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20214-the-ultimate-james-horners-plagiarism-list/


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## GeorgeHirschmann (Mar 15, 2021)

The problem with James Horner is not that he "strayed" into various previous composers' works, as John Williams couldn't help doing because he knew and loved them. With Horner, it is a calculated, cold-blooded theft of theme and orchestration in so many examples I gave up noting them. I remember hearing, in a movie theater, a total rip-off of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony, 2nd movement. This was in the "Sorceress" - a goofy very bad fantasy film. So Horner totally rips off Shostakovich's music, melody, orchestration for harp and flute - EVERYTHING. He also did this on another cheesy low budget film - Humanoids of the Deep. The Main Title (!) is stolen in all respects from Charles Ives "Unanswered Question" - a famous piece (for people who listen to modern classical). Horner thought nobody would notice - but guess what - I did. I couldn;thelp it. I thought "wait a minute! I've heard that!" And the Main Theme from Willow - totally stolen from Robert Schumann's 3rd Symphony first movement main theme - with added fanfares. (How original.) It is the calculated thieving, not the unconscious inspiration, that is so disturbing because these things are EXACTLY like their sources. None of this is true of John Williams, though legions of people want to prove that with their clever little comparisons of this section with that - as I said before, something one can easily do with every great classical composer in history. But complete sections just lifted as Horner did - that is plagiarism and crap composing which he specialized in. By the way - does anybody here know of how he even stole from John Williams? Listen to the climactic scene from Aliens, and compare it to the climactic strafing run of Luke Skywalker in the first STar Wars - another total rip-off. That is truly ridiculous, stealing from the greatest composer of modern film music in the most famous film. But Horner did it...


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## jononotbono (Mar 15, 2021)

I always thought James Horner is one of the best. And I’ve always loved “his” music. Not so long ago I decided to buy Mike Verta’s Masterclass ‘On Horner’ as I wanted to learn more about him. That was extremely eye opening for me 😂


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## José Herring (Mar 15, 2021)

GeorgeHirschmann said:


> The problem with James Horner is not that he "strayed" into various previous composers' works, as John Williams couldn't help doing because he knew and loved them. With Horner, it is a calculated, cold-blooded theft of theme and orchestration in so many examples I gave up noting them. I remember hearing, in a movie theater, a total rip-off of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony, 2nd movement. This was in the "Sorceress" - a goofy very bad fantasy film. So Horner totally rips off Shostakovich's music, melody, orchestration for harp and flute - EVERYTHING. He also did this on another cheesy low budget film - Humanoids of the Deep. The Main Title (!) is stolen in all respects from Charles Ives "Unanswered Question" - a famous piece (for people who listen to modern classical). Horner thought nobody would notice - but guess what - I did. I couldn;thelp it. I thought "wait a minute! I've heard that!" And the Main Theme from Willow - totally stolen from Robert Schumann's 3rd Symphony first movement main theme - with added fanfares. (How original.) It is the calculated thieving, not the unconscious inspiration, that is so disturbing because these things are EXACTLY like their sources. None of this is true of John Williams, though legions of people want to prove that with their clever little comparisons of this section with that - as I said before, something one can easily do with every great classical composer in history. But complete sections just lifted as Horner did - that is plagiarism and crap composing which he specialized in. By the way - does anybody here know of how he even stole from John Williams? Listen to the climactic scene from Aliens, and compare it to the climactic strafing run of Luke Skywalker in the first STar Wars - another total rip-off. That is truly ridiculous, stealing from the greatest composer of modern film music in the most famous film. But Horner did it...


All that is true. But, also Horner came up with some very original stuff that honestly puts him in with the greatest of all time. He just had a weird personality. On one hand, he was blinding stealing with reckless abandon, on the other hand coming up with some of the most beautiful original music written for film.


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