# Are old school composition and orchestration becoming obsolete?



## Peter M. (Mar 3, 2012)

This has probably been asked before, but I couldn't find any topic like this so here it goes:
In the last couple of years, I've got the feeling that in modern film/game scores a "traditional" approach to composing has been replaced with sound design and loud percussion so to speak. I mean, whatever happened to good ol' fashioned orchestration, harmonic richness, counterpoint and all that jazz? Many of the scores in latest movies all rely on simple harmonic progression (i-VI-III-VII anyone?), big angry percussion, spiccato rendition of the aforementioned progression, a horn melody over the same progression, maybe a menacy sounding choir, usually a low synth bass and voila, there you have it. Not to mention a trend to write for strings and brass only. Is John Williams only one who dares to write for the winds? 
Classical training seems to be becoming a waste of time for a composer who wishes to work in the movie and game industry, could it be that sound design in the digital realm is becoming a much more sought after skill in the industry?


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## Leon Willett (Mar 3, 2012)

no


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## Leon Willett (Mar 3, 2012)

Well, I should elaborate (lol): you don't need any particular skill to work in movies and games, as long as you are somehow making great music. 

But, certain games and films require a beautiful symphonic score, in which case "old school" skills are unavoidable.


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## MikeH (Mar 3, 2012)

There are many film composers who still write for winds and take the 'traditional' approach most of the time:

James Horner
Marco Beltrami
Christopher Young
Carter Burwell
David Arnold
James Newton Howard
Alexandre Desplat
Danny Elfman

It's still there...you just gotta look.


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## José Herring (Mar 3, 2012)

Absolutely not. 

Its becoming more relevant today than ever before. 

With 1,000,000+ "composers" with a computer and some form of sample library, that don't know squat about music, the only way to separate yourself from the thundering cacophonous heard is to demonstrate that you can really write music. It's a dying bread of composer who knows his skills these days. It's helped separate me from a lot of guys out there because there is a call for different kinds of music and a lot of guys really can't do anything beyond big bangy boomy stuff.

But you can't really think of it as "old school" education. Or you'll fall into a trap. I think of it as applying reason to music and think of how I can make the discoveries of past masters relevant today. Then you really start to separate out from the pack. You can do things that very few people can even think of.

Anybody that thinks knowing as much as you can about your craft is somehow passe is either pretty dimwitted or a proud symphobia owner.(jk)

But education gets a bad wrap sometimes and unless you're fully dedicated to figuring it out, you'll fall into the trap of thinking that because you know a little that somehow that's enough. You still need originality and creativity. And there's where the uneducated sometimes beats out the barely educated composer. Because the uneducated has to rely on creativity and originality almost exclusively, where as the under educated composer with a little training may get stuck in it. Recently I've found that you have to go over the top with your education. You either have to go full in and learn as much as you can or you really are better off not knowing anything. A little knowledge is dangerous. And, I find that where somebody who is educated falls flat is when he starts thinking that the education he has actually means something. It doesn't beyond the ability of the person to use what he knows effectively.

And remember that you can approach education from many angles. I make the greatest leaps and strides studying scores. A distant second is studying music books. Thirdly, in forms of music that aren't written down I listen to a ton of different kinds of music from NIN to Theloneous Monk, ect..... It's all cool and as long as I feel that the person behind the music has intelligence and something to say then that music becomes relevant to me. 

I have more to say but, I'm in a rush.


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## Udo (Mar 3, 2012)

Many musicians appear to end up in a "straight-jacket" because of music education ("fashion" also has a bit to do with it, I suppose). Some realize that and are then attracted to things like EIS, which puts them into another, possibly slightly less rigid straight-jacket. :wink: 

There's an enormous amount of "sameness" in music these days, including that of "top" composers, and it's getting worse. :(


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## MichaelL (Mar 3, 2012)

Udo @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> There's an enormous amount of "sameness" in music these days, including that of "top" composers, and it's getting worse. :(




I don't think that circumstance is completely a product of unschooled musicians, but rather the result of risk averse studios and the desire for a safe, predictable, product that will appeal to the mass market. Hence, we get "McMusic."

HOWEVER: variations of this issue have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. Just go over to the thread about library music replacing composers, for example.


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## MichaelL (Mar 3, 2012)

Peter M. @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> John Williams only one who dares to write for the winds?




Don't worry that will change when someone releases the first EPIC WOODWIND sample library. :lol: 

Trust me...it's coming.


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## synthetic (Mar 3, 2012)

Half of the top-grossing movies from last year were traditional scores, the other half hybrid scores. 

http://www.the-numbers.com/market/2011.php

If you looked past the top ten I'll bet that ratio would skew even more board traditional scoring. Conclusion: learn both. And jazz scoring, electronic only, everything else. Ready, go.


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## Udo (Mar 3, 2012)

MichaelL @ Sun Mar 04 said:


> Udo @ Sat Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > There's an enormous amount of "sameness" in music these days, including that of "top" composers, and it's getting worse. :(
> ...


I don't think you read my post properly. I find that "sameness" is also prevalent among the "educated", incl. "top" composers.


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## MichaelL (Mar 3, 2012)

Udo @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> MichaelL @ Sun Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Udo @ Sat Mar 03 said:
> ...



Take education out of the equation. 

Risk averse studios and the desire for a safe, predictable, product that will appeal to the mass market results in "McMusic."


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## JJP (Mar 3, 2012)

Peter M. @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> Classical training seems to be becoming a waste of time for a composer who wishes to work in the movie and game industry, could it be that sound design in the digital realm is becoming a much more sought after skill in the industry?



You can find people asking this same question for half a century or more.

The skills developed from that sort of an education are buying my wife and me a nice house, a private recording studio, and a comfortable life. That's partly because we also get paid to help people who don't have those skills.

So the cynic in me says, "Yeah, it's a waste." :twisted: :wink:


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## JohnG (Mar 4, 2012)

The Adventures of Tintin -- John Williams 
The Artist -- Ludovic Bource 
Hugo -- Howard Shore 
Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy -- Alberto Iglesias 
War Horse -- John Williams

Was any one of these principally a sound design score?


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## dcoscina (Mar 4, 2012)

If anything, I hear a return to more traditional compositional techniques these days. I hear more melody and development of themes. I just rented Puss and Boots last night, a score by Henry Jackman, and found it very melodic and full of harmonic interest and orchestration in the traditional sense. Very little sound design. 

Eveything moves in cycles and I do think we will see a return to more traditional composition in film scores. THere are plenty of people who do have good solid chops but in the film world, you never know whether it;s the mandate of the director or producers that's exerting pressure to have the composer do a more sound scape based score. 

I'm actually looking forward to a few films and their scores this year. I know Zimmer will do a great job on The Dark Knight rises and I'm always keen to hear what Desplat comes up with. PT Anderson has gotten Jonny Greenwood to score his next film so that ought to be worth listening to..and Williams' Lincoln should be amazing (also a great film- Spielberg and Day Lewis. How can you lose?)


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## Consona (Mar 6, 2012)

Could somebody recommend some interesting hybrid score? And who started to write these scores anyway?

I think that this type of score really fits certain movies, but it sounds so great (The Dark Knight for example imo) that a lot of people try to sound like that and it maybe becomes overused or it is more plagiarism than pushing the boundaries further and finding own hybrid sound.

I think old school composition and orchestration won't become obsolete. The Lord of the Rings would be really odd with synth lines and raging guitar tracks. But there will be more sound design scores due to possibilities that synths and samplers bring.

And I think it is some kind of salvation for sample libraries, because hybrid score do not need to hold that _sound-like-real-thing_ position.


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2012)

JohnG @ Sun Mar 04 said:


> The Adventures of Tintin -- John Williams
> The Artist -- Ludovic Bource
> Hugo -- Howard Shore
> Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy -- Alberto Iglesias
> ...



this.


n'uff said.


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## Simplesly (Mar 6, 2012)

I think you can do well in this industry without the conservatory education - especially if you're god's gift to music production and you rock with your tools. And provided you're doing a project that requires a less 'classical' score. But being educated to me is essential - knowing basic theory stuff, harmony, voice leading, scales + intervals, ear training, actually reading music etc., can give you an advantage over the army of un-trained and undertrained hacks whose crutches are their tools and music production skills. 

I think these days you need to be good at both (or at least perceived to be that way) to reach the top. To me this is especially true if you're just starting out and opportunity arises.

Also I think there are a lot of scores that we just hear and forget about, but the really great ones, the ones that stick with us, have a little more going on 'under the hood' - things that can only come from solid training.


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## Ed (Mar 6, 2012)

Regarding the title of this thread:



> "Are old school composition and orchestration becoming obsolete?"



No, they are just not as necessary anymore.


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## handz (Mar 6, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> Regarding the title of this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


)

True, why try to compose good music for todays mostly "watch once and then never again" movies.


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2012)

handz @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> Ed @ Tue Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding the title of this thread:
> ...



wait, there are others?!!


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2012)

Peter M. @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> This has probably been asked before, but I couldn't find any topic like this so here it goes:
> In the last couple of years, I've got the feeling that in modern film/game scores a "traditional" approach to composing has been replaced with sound design and loud percussion so to speak. I mean, whatever happened to good ol' fashioned orchestration, harmonic richness, counterpoint and all that jazz? Many of the scores in latest movies all rely on simple harmonic progression (i-VI-III-VII anyone?), big angry percussion, spiccato rendition of the aforementioned progression, a horn melody over the same progression, maybe a menacy sounding choir, usually a low synth bass and voila, there you have it. Not to mention a trend to write for strings and brass only. Is John Williams only one who dares to write for the winds?
> Classical training seems to be becoming a waste of time for a composer who wishes to work in the movie and game industry, could it be that sound design in the digital realm is becoming a much more sought after skill in the industry?



ok. time to start trolling :mrgreen: 


1st question...


SHOW ME THE NUMBERS :mrgreen: 

WHO< WHERE AND WHY SAID there arent so many old school orchestration ?

did you just get a new cable package/.??! 

your question/statement is very vague. 

show me statistics,, show me real numbers. you might be in a specific bubble only watching specific shows.


here:

http://www.imdb.com/search/title?year=2 ... emeter,asc

8,022 titles for 2011. 

seems it would be hard to tell which is old school and which are not.


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2012)

Leon Willett @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> Well, I should elaborate (lol): you don't need any particular skill to work in movies and games, as long as you are somehow making great music.
> 
> But, certain games and films require a beautiful symphonic score, in which case "old school" skills are unavoidable.



agree, 

but you sure need a lot of money for the equipement to start doing scores. 

damn sweet equipment.


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## Kralc (Mar 6, 2012)

handz @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> True, why try to compose good music for todays mostly "watch once and then never again" movies.



This is really true. My dvd collection consists of Inception, LoTR and Star Wars. That's it.
Does anyone even buy dvds anymore? I love movies, don't get me wrong.

But more on topic John Williams' score for the intro of Tintin was the my favorite part of the movie.


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## windshore (Mar 7, 2012)

Ever notice how this type of thread always turns into a bunch of composers eventually patting ourselves on the back and saying, oh yeah, things will never change and eventually people will remember that they need the thing we want to do?

Yep, and "big bands are coming back!"

There wouldn't have been so many posts if this wasn't a valid area of concern and simply because we come up with a list of examples doesn't prove a trend one way or the other. 

The trends in music are not established by the composers for the most part. If we look at the TV universe as a faster moving low-brow cousin of theatrical film we'd notice that the clients (directors & producers) have embraced underscore which is either more "sound design" or more "song" based. Lots of composers, including myself have been knocked down when submitting traditional "scored" music. When they (directors) play and example of what they want, it's like, ohhh, yeah, you want... that crap. OK... I'll whip out Evolve. Younger producers & directors grew up with a different esthetic than older pros.

Film generally has bigger budgets, longer production schedules etc. There tend to be more "filters" than for TV. It's not unlikely that the trends in TV will find their way into film. (They have already.) Trying to figure out to what degree traditional underscore will be valued in the future is anyone's guess but the fact that things are changing and will change.... that's a safe bet.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Mar 7, 2012)

windshore @ Wed Mar 07 said:


> Ever notice how this type of thread always turns into a bunch of composers eventually patting ourselves on the back and saying, oh yeah, things will never change and eventually people will remember that they need the thing we want to do?
> 
> Yep, and "big bands are coming back!"
> 
> ...



Great post , Mark !

Best
Gerd


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## dpasdernick (Mar 7, 2012)

MichaelL @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> Udo @ Sat Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > MichaelL @ Sun Mar 04 said:
> ...



nail on the head Michael... nail on the head.


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## Daryl (Mar 8, 2012)

If you want to write for orchestra then you need to learn how to do it. That will never change.

D


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## midphase (Mar 8, 2012)

JohnG @ Sun Mar 04 said:


> The Adventures of Tintin -- John Williams
> The Artist -- Ludovic Bource
> Hugo -- Howard Shore
> Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy -- Alberto Iglesias
> ...



Two of those are Williams (which was mentioned at the top of the thread as the exception), one is a foreign film which contains a large amount of vintage scores, one is from a 65 year old composer (I think that qualifies one as "old school", and that leaves Iglesias who is also in his mid 50's and tends to work on the (unfortunately) rare films that give a crap about music.

I'm not trying to say that there aren't still quality scores out there, of course there are and will continue to be created. But by and far those scores are heavily outnumbered by the scores which are as the OP describes. There are always exceptions...and boy do they come out in those threads, but if you only focus on those, you all are missing the point of the OP.

Here are some movies from 2011 which I think are a good indication of the trend towards scores which are somewhat homogenous, use simplified harmony/melody, make strong use of atmospheric or sound design-y instruments, and are generally designed to not draw too much musical attention to themselves:

Transformers: DotM
Pirates: OSt
Mission Impossible: GP
Fast Five
Season of the Witch
The Green Hornet
The Mechanic
The Rite
Just Go With It
I am #4
Unknown
Hall Pass
The Adjustement Beaureau
Battle: LA
Red Riding Hood
Limitless
The Lincoln Lawyer
Sucker Punch
Source Code
Insidious
Hanna
Thor
Priest
X-Men: FC
Green Lantern
Captain America
Another Earth
Rise of the Planet of the Apes
Final Destination 5
Conan the Barbariab
Fright Night
Don't be Afraid of the Dark
Contagion
Drive


Look, I'm not arguing who is a better composer, that is not the point. Nor am I arguing about whether or not the composers who originated the above scores are talented and know how to write for orchestra, that is also not the point. All I am trying to point out is that each an every time one of those topics come up (and it does often), most people around here seem to get all their feathers ruffled (you know who you are) and deny that there is such a trend.


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## José Herring (Mar 8, 2012)

I always hate these discussions too, yet here I am getting involved again.

Look, just write whatever music you want to write. I think that the only appeal of the so called typical "hybrid" score is that they're loud and bangy. I honestly think that you could put any music under there as long as its got plenty of loudy bangy parts it passes.

I've recently been asked to do some hybridy type stuff and being who I am I can't really stand most of it, but I banged out something in 7/8 with orchestra, synths, guits, ect.... Sounded pretty good. Certainly not that harmonically advanced, but with all that's going on, deep dissonant harmonies just don't fly in that style.

But, then I've also been asked a lot to do the opposite. Mostly been asked to do the opposite. The more feathers in your cap the less work you'll have to pass up.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 8, 2012)

josejherring @ 8/3/2012 said:


> The more feathers in your cap the less work you'll have to pass up.



Ain't it the truth!!! ^>|


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## Ed (Mar 8, 2012)

Not sure why you include Source Code in that list.


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## midphase (Mar 8, 2012)

Because even though I've watched the movie twice, I couldn't remember what the music sounded like if you held a gun to my head and my life depended on it.

Not saying it was bad, just saying that it's part of the trend towards scores which are decisively not old school.


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## Ed (Mar 8, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Mar 08 said:


> Because even though I've watched the movie twice, I couldn't remember what the music sounded like if you held a gun to my head and my life depended on it.
> 
> Not saying it was bad, just saying that it's part of the trend towards scores which are decisively not old school.



Uh just because you dont remember it doesnt mean its sound design and atmospherics. If it doesnt count as old school techniques I dont know what does. How about you go look it up.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 8, 2012)

+1 to Ed's post. I bought the music as soon as I got home from the film, and thought it was refreshingly old-school.


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## midphase (Mar 8, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Mar 08 said:


> Uh just because you dont remember it doesnt mean its sound design and atmospherics. If it doesnt count as old school techniques I dont know what does. How about you go look it up.



Ed,

The OP didn't just write about sound design and atmospherics, but also this:

"I mean, whatever happened to good ol' fashioned orchestration, harmonic richness, counterpoint and all that jazz?"

When I listen to cues like Frozen Moment for instance, I'm not really hearing any old-school complexity in the music. It's good music, pleasant and all, fits the film, Chris Bacon rocks it...but it's no Williams or Goldsmith...it's a I IV V progression, piano and strings with a basically pleasant melody. My guess is if you asked Chris he'd probably agree.


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## jleckie (Mar 8, 2012)

Yeah. I think Source Code is pretty good actually. If for no other reason than it's unique recording methods.

(keep in mind- I am a pissant)


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## José Herring (Mar 8, 2012)

Not sure why Ghost protocol is on there. That was a retro score if ever I had heard one.

Are you sure you saw these films midpase?

And Captain America? That was so old school it was almost embarrassing. 

And Green Lantern? The only thing new about that score was the one finger omnisphere patches. JNH used one had to play the patch and the other hand was at the bank simultaneously cashing the check.


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## Ed (Mar 9, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Mar 08 said:


> Ed @ Thu Mar 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Uh just because you dont remember it doesnt mean its sound design and atmospherics. If it doesnt count as old school techniques I dont know what does. How about you go look it up.
> ...



LOL! Textbook example of moving the goal posts. :lol:


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## choc0thrax (Mar 9, 2012)

josejherring @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> The only thing new about that score was the one finger omnisphere patches. JNH used one had to play the patch and the other hand was at the bank simultaneously cashing the check.



I'll bet you one hand was at the bank cashing the check and the other was holding a cellphone so he could ask how the score was coming along. 

"Hey honey, how are our songs doing?"

"Daddy! Today we we saw a trrr--tran--sssarus rex at the park--"

"That's nice. Hey, remember to save the music OK? Not like last time, right?"

"Yes Daddy! Daddy can we have ice cream when you--"

CLICK.


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## skyy38 (Mar 13, 2012)

gsilbers @ Tue Mar 06 said:


> Leon Willett @ Sat Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I should elaborate (lol): you don't need any particular skill to work in movies and games, as long as you are somehow making great music.
> ...



How MUCH money do you think it takes?


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