# Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition?



## vicontrolu (Feb 18, 2014)

Ok, i know its not an intentional mistake but hopefully more people will enter this topic and comment about it - no offense Rctec :wink: 

https://soundcloud.com/bleeding-fingers ... ants-you-1

At 0:36 the melody in the trumpet clashes for a while with the ascending string line. I havent been classically trained and i break the rules more often than not when composing but this surprised me cause it really hurt my ears when i first listened to it. I usually dont care if this happens on inner voices but this dissonance is so explicit you really cant miss it and, if i was composing te tune, i would have definitely avoided this clash.

What are your thoughts about it? Do you tend to avoid this when you are composing and working on the main melody too?

Cheers


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## Richard Wilkinson (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

You could call it a suspension, since it goes up a semitone to the tonic. Nothing wrong with a bit of intentional dissonance.


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## vicontrolu (Feb 18, 2014)

Thats the thing..my ears somehow point it as very wrong. I have no perfect pitch btw


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## murrthecat (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

Dissonances are the spice of music


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## Lex (Feb 18, 2014)

vicontrolu @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> Thats the thing..my ears somehow point it as very wrong. I have no perfect pitch btw



....then maybe skip that part when u r listening?

alex


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## Rob (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

Sounds like a nice dissonance to me... you hear a lot of that in classical music from the beginning of XX century on.


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## dryano (Feb 18, 2014)

A pretty much expected dissonance at this point, it is in my opinion. Maybe you did expect something else, and so you get to the conclusion it must be wrong.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 18, 2014)

What murrthecat says. Tension and release - fundamental operations of music. Oh - and of nature.


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## vicontrolu (Feb 18, 2014)

Yeah i get the resolution sense of the melodic string line. It s just that I guess if i was making this string line i would have gotten up until E then descend to D to avoid the semitone clash with the trumpet. Also i think if there were only strings involved here my ears could have accepted the dissonance better.

Well, by your answers i guess i might be a bit too obsessed with half tone dissonances on main melodies. Earn training definitely pays off..in the wrong way


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

I was curious, gave it an honest listen, seems t work well with the flow of the piece.


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## aaronnt1 (Feb 18, 2014)

Obviously intentional.


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## murrthecat (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

Maybe subliminal


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## dgburns (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*



vicontrolu @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> Ok, i know its not an intentional mistake but hopefully more people will enter this topic and comment about it - no offense Rctec :wink:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/bleeding-fingers ... ants-you-1
> 
> ...



works fine,not a mistake,it's a passing suspension and in the same scale.Not really even a controversy really,it's pretty tame actually.now if it was about two different systems clashing at the same time,we'd have something to talk about methinks.
end of the day,we only have 12 notes...


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## SamGarnerStudios (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

Far from a mistake. That's arguably my favorite part of the composition.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

Anyway, how can a mistake exist? That's why it's a "composition".


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## germancomponist (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

The thread title is a joke!


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## dgburns (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*



germancomponist @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> The thread title is a joke!



easy does it there .... he's allowed to have free speech


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

I don't recall there ever being a 'look, there's a wrong note in James Newton Howard, James Horner, Jerry Goldsmith, Danny Elfman, Bernard Herrmann, John Williams, John Barry, Elmer Bernstein, Bruce Broughton, Brian Tyler, John Ottman, John Powell, John Debney....etc. etc.' thread. Not ever.

But, now we have a 'Mr. Zimmer wrote a wrong note' thread. And Mr. Zimmer is a member here. Isn't that just a crazy coincidence?


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## vicontrolu (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

I dont think its a coincidnece. The fact the stems were available for download made me analyze more deeply the song and that led me to this thing.

Thanks for the quick answers, people. I think chosing "mistake" on the title definitely helped on this matter! I hope most of you can forgive me, maybe some day. 

Cheers!


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## Greg (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*



vicontrolu @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> I dont think its a coincidnece. The fact the stems were available for download made me analyze more deeply the song and that led me to this thing.
> 
> Thanks for the quick answers, people. I think chosing "mistake" on the title definitely helped on this matter! I hope most of you can forgive me, maybe some day.
> 
> Cheers!



Forgive you?!?! Mistake or not, you certainly have the right to dislike it


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

Alas for those times when irony goes unnoticed.


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## dcoscina (Feb 18, 2014)

I think Schoenberg wrote a lot of wrong notes in his music. And that Charles Ives....hoboy, don't get me started. He couldn't decide on what key centre he wanted his instruments playing in so he wrote in multiple keys... yuck.


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## Arbee (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*



vicontrolu @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> I dont think its a coincidnece. The fact the stems were available for download made me analyze more deeply the song and that led me to this thing.
> 
> Thanks for the quick answers, people. I think chosing "mistake" on the title definitely helped on this matter! I hope most of you can forgive me, maybe some day.
> 
> Cheers!


If finding "mistakes" in the work of others, particularly successful others, can help us feel better about ourselves then no harm done :wink: 

.


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## vicontrolu (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

No, i am not that pathetic.

I heard something i would have considered a mistake on my compositional process,came here, ask how it sounded to the rest, and learnt i was mistaken with my conception of mistake. 

Its all been a selfish learning experience.


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## Arbee (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*



vicontrolu @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> No, i am not that pathetic.
> 
> I heard something i would have considered a mistake on my compositional process,came here, ask how it sounded to the rest, and learnt i was mistaken with my conception of mistake.
> 
> Its all been a selfish learning experience.


I thought I made a mistake once but I was wrong 

There are no mistakes: http://www.ted.com/talks/stefon_harris_there_are_no_mistakes_on_the_bandstand.html (dialogue from 6.00)

.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 18, 2014)

> I think Schoenberg wrote a lot of wrong notes in his music. And that Charles Ives....hoboy, don't get me started.



The worst offender was Ludwig VB. What a charlatan.


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## Pietro (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

Definitely intentional. Just a the use of a 3rd on top of a 4-3 suspension in the root chord. It spices up the composition, makes it more emotionally engaging.

- Piotr


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## guydoingmusic (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*



vicontrolu @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> No, i am not that pathetic.
> 
> I heard something i would have considered a mistake on my compositional process,came here, ask how it sounded to the rest, and learnt i was mistaken with my conception of mistake.
> 
> Its all been a selfish learning experience.



First of all... you called out an "A-List" Hollywood composer, who happens to have many award winning blockbusters that he has scored.. notched on his resume... There are other ways to ask if something is amiss or if it's just your perception. Your title is absurd and seems as if it's only goal is aimed at getting attention for yourself, all while coming across like an arrogant know-it-all. Even if you had put a question mark at the end of your title.

It's ok to ask. But these are all words written on a screen for all to read. And there is no way to interpret the attitude in which it was written. I have been watching this discussion all day, and refrained from saying anything, but after your last post, I thought I would add this suggestion.

Don't post crap like that... and then act like you didn't know what you were doing. Even if you were oblivious to the fact that there is a better way to ask a question than the way you chose to do it. A simple question mark at the end of your title would have made a huge difference... but rather you chose to imply that you have the magical ability to find fault that no one else has.


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## Rctec (Feb 18, 2014)

A very well regarded - maybe even revered "A" list composer friend of mine would do the 4th/3rd thing all the time...and it would drive me crazy. I remember talking to him about it - back and forth for quite a while, trying to get him to change it in one piece and him saying that it might be wrong, but he Liked it. Well, you can't argue with that. And, actually, my ear has gotten more sophisticated over the years. So now I Like It!
But I know you just wanted to show how clever you are, because calling me out on a forum probably shows a lack of sophistication. But than, You might like That.


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## The Darris (Feb 18, 2014)

Rctec @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> A very well regarded - maybe even revered "A" list composer friend of mine would do the 4th/3rd thing all the time...and it would drive me crazy. I remember talking to him about it - back and forth for quite a while, trying to get him to change it in one piece and him saying that it might be wrong, but he Liked it. Well, you can't argue with that. And, actually, my ear has gotten more sophisticated over the years. So now I Like It!
> But I know you just wanted to show how clever you are, because calling me out on a forum probably shows a lack of sophistication. But than, You might like That.



Boom. That just happened. 

I really love dissonance in music. For me it is the min 2nd against the min 3rd. 3rd and 4th has some niceness to it as well. A lot of composers starting out, or even those without a lot of training or musical knowledge tend to stay close to the chordal triads and not venture out into experimenting with the more harsh sounding, clashing notes that add that extra layer of character to them. Sure, some music doesn't require that but in Han's piece for this contest, it works out very nicely to add that sense of tension to give us a musical moment of resolution towards the end of that melody. Yes, it can lead to a very predictable moment musically but that is the point, half steps tend to be leading tones and they are used to clash with the tonic of the chord that they are leading into to give us a sense of tension and motion.


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## dcoscina (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*

I would recommend that our inquisitor stay well away from Don Davis' Matrix scores or anything by Elliot Goldenthal. Whole lotta "wrong" notes in them thar scores.


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## dgburns (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: Hans Zimmer Destiny´s door - mistake in composition*



dcoscina @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> I would recommend that our inquisitor stay well away from Don Davis' Matrix scores or anything by Elliot Goldenthal. Whole lotta "wrong" notes in them thar scores.



funny,i was thinking of Don Davis in the same context.What lovely writing he did on Matrix.

And i think a question mark in the title might've been a good idea.But,can't we all just talk about these things in a more friendly way?I'm more interested in the meat of the arguments for or against the theory myself,who cares who bloody wrote it,music is music.It's either good and it works,or it doesn't.

And fwiw,the note is fine.I'd encourage even more passing tension elsewhere,but then again,who cares what I think.

I'm on a augmented kick these days,what fun to be always non-resolving :?


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## vicontrolu (Feb 19, 2014)

Rctec @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> But I know you just wanted to show how clever you are, because calling me out on a forum probably shows a lack of sophistication. But than, You might like That.



I didnt call out anybody. The question wasnt aimed at you personally and i honestly didnt think you´d spend your time reading this.

Besides how would i come here and ask for a thing like that to show how clever i am? This makes no sense. At the contrary, i´ve been spanked for not having a broader tolerance against dissonances and i hope this all turns out in a more pleasing writing for the audience. Thats exactly what i might like and why i posted this question here.

I add the question mark in the title and leave the thread.

Cheers


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## munician (Feb 19, 2014)

If this is a mistake then all of Jazz is a mistake...


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## Rctec (Feb 19, 2014)

Dear Vicontrolu,
The last thing I want is anybody getting spanked (and yes, I couldn't resist to use the word "clever" in the sense of the cold-blooded public schoolboy upbringing I had...)
But equally, I was trying to tell an anecdote that I thought would explain how tricky it is to free yourself (I'm not even certain it's such a good thing...) from your harmonic sensibility.

If you guys weren't all so young I would have used the example of the first time I heard "Birds of Fire" by the mahavishnu orchestra in 1972, that I thought it an insane, awful racket, just to discover a year later that it was absolutely bloody brilliant. The music hadn't changed, I had matured...

Look - Schoenberg, Alban Berg, Henze, Cage - everybody in the so called Avant Garde sounds frightfully old fashioned now. Jazz is about the most unpopular idiom in film music...If you want to condemn a movie to box-office death, write a jazz score. 

But that's all beside the point. You like what you like. in fact, I hope you passionately love it. 
And yes, to you it's a mistake (confession: I think Copeland would put the wrong harmony in on purpose, just to seem clever...and I'm the only person on earth that just doesn't get him. But I love Ives...go figure), to me it resonates in a complicated and provocative way. That's different from a sloppy mistake. I'm not sloppy in my music. My music divides quite concisely into 50/50: half for people to like, the other half to make them furious. That's me. It's a game.
So, I apologize for the "clever' bit, and you just go and make music the way you want to make it. But don't tell me I made a mistake. 

-H-


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## SymphonicSamples (Feb 19, 2014)

A mistake to me is when someone plays a C# instead of C natural when playing say a Beethoven Sonata slow movement , it hurts  When it comes to all the great composers of our time , there are no mistakes , only the journey they chose to share with us . It's so very true as Hans pointed out , when you have a more developed musical mind , you don't hone in and hear examples such as this as mistakes , only more interesting colors . If you take it to the extreme , take Beethoven's Grosse Fuge , full of mistakes to innocent ears of it's time , a masterpiece in ours


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## vicontrolu (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh man..Hans now apologizing? I think this post was a complete...mistake! :D

Thanks for the apologies- I dont know how anybody could have possibly think i was telling probably the most succesful composer of our times he made a real mistake (completely surreal) but well..for those who might have been hurt, my sincere apologies too.

I am gonna try to overcome this dissonance thing but, at first, doesnt look like an easy road for me. Now letme check this "Birds of fire"..


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## Markus S (Feb 19, 2014)

It's a funny discussion. Luckily for us composers there is no such thing as wrong or right notes / right or wrong music.

No offense to the original composer, and not to charme Mr Zimmer here, but there are always people who will try to find universal rules and then go about music as if it was some administration thing. Personally I stumbled upon that dissonance as well and thought it was interesting.

It's quite ironical because HZ's music often gives the right and wrong direction for many people. Maybe now we will see this dissonance around until everyone expects it and feels it's missing if not used.


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## Rob (Feb 19, 2014)

Rctec @ 19th February 2014 said:


> .... Jazz is about the most unpopular idiom in film music...If you want to condemn a movie to box-office death, write a jazz score.
> ....
> -H-



Sad sign of times...


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## IvanP (Feb 19, 2014)

vicontrolu @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Thanks for the apologies- I dont know how anybody could have possibly think i was telling probably the most succesful composer of our times he made a real mistake (completely surreal)



Congratulations on your hypocrisy award! o=<


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## danielcartisano (Feb 19, 2014)

Something that will forever resonate with me was what Tom Waits (one of my hero's) said in his Hall of Fame acceptance speech:

"Songs, uh, are really just interesting things to be doing with the air."

I'll leave that with you.


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## Leandro Gardini (Feb 19, 2014)

Rctec @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> A very well regarded - maybe even revered "A" list composer friend of mine would do the 4th/3rd thing all the time...and it would drive me crazy. I remember talking to him about it - back and forth for quite a while, trying to get him to change it in one piece and him saying that it might be wrong, but he Liked it. Well, you can't argue with that. And, actually, my ear has gotten more sophisticated over the years. So now I Like It!
> But I know you just wanted to show how clever you are, because calling me out on a forum probably shows a lack of sophistication. But than, You might like That.


Yes, I like those 3th/4rd in JNH's musics  !!!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 19, 2014)

Once is a mistake, twice is a statement/intention, thrice is a theme. Just own it! (Composing tip, not for Hans, bien sûr). And yeah, we're far from the avant-garde, but they were on to something for sure. I love Sean Callery's use of atonality in one of the later seasons of 24. The piano with no center representing the madness of the President. Almost-Webern on prime-time!


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 19, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Once is a mistake, twice is a statement/intention, thrice is a theme.



I like that.


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## mcdoma2000 (Feb 19, 2014)

At one point in my musical life, I almost HATED dissonance that was very evident in the music. I was attending University training in composition and every week we had a listening session, and the professors just LOVED to have the extremely dissonant and almost structureless (to my ears) music. It seemed so academic and so out of the realm of what I wanted to write: beautiful music that touched peoples hearts.

It took me quite a while to finally begin to appreciate dissonance and not respond so dramatically to it. My own compositions now include much more of it. I would say that I use dissonance in a "measured" way, still preferring to write sweet melodies and lovely harmonies, but what is sweet and lovely to me now is different - there is more room for the dissonance - and more appreciation for its usage.


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## dgburns (Feb 19, 2014)

mcdoma2000 @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> At one point in my musical life, I almost HATED dissonance that was very evident in the music. I was attending University training in composition and every week we had a listening session, and the professors just LOVED to have the extremely dissonant and almost structureless (to my ears) music. It seemed so academic and so out of the realm of what I wanted to write: beautiful music that touched peoples hearts.
> 
> It took me quite a while to finally begin to appreciate dissonance and not respond so dramatically to it. My own compositions now include much more of it. I would say that I use dissonance in a "measured" way, still preferring to write sweet melodies and lovely harmonies, but what is sweet and lovely to me now is different - there is more room for the dissonance - and more appreciation for its usage.



So beautifully written,bravo! I echo the sentiment completely.Such a nice addition to this thread.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 19, 2014)

If one wanted to properly analyze what is going on in the music there: you simply have a main tune in the trumpet and a secondary melodic line going in the upper part of the strings. Each part is telling it's own story but also each part is written properly and without _mistakes_; meaning there isn't some awful jarring weakness that would get a student the red pencil in the third week of his freshman composition class.

So you are achieving dissonance in the best way possible: two correctly written parts that are independent and relate both to the background harmony and each other at the same time. In a texture like this you get varying levels of consonance and dissonance but more importantly you get a woven tapestry far more transient in nature than a single melody with block chords. Much more interesting at least to the composer and hopefully a richer musical experience for the listener.

It is well known that both Mozart and Beethoven in there maturity became far more polyphonic in there musical textures. It's a natural process for a composer to increase the number of musical planes he is writing on and add more dimensions or depth to his music.


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## AC986 (Feb 19, 2014)

As Eric Morcombe once said to Andre Previn, ' I'm playing all the rights notes, but not necessarily in the right order'


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## Daryl (Feb 19, 2014)

adriancook @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> As Eric Morcombe once said to Andre Previn, ' I'm playing all the rights notes, but not necessarily in the right order'


My favourite sketch of all time.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 19, 2014)

In the second movement, not too heavy on the banjos..


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## Wes Antczak (Feb 19, 2014)

This discussion reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UsmvtyxEI


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 19, 2014)

Rctec @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Look - Schoenberg, Alban Berg, Henze, Cage - everybody in the so called Avant Garde sounds frightfully old fashioned now. Jazz is about the most unpopular idiom in film music...If you want to condemn a movie to box-office death, write a jazz score.



I actually think that we're firmly in the Ligeti Tone Cluster/Scelsi Microtonal era of film music right now. (Joker theme?)

And if you include "jazz" to mean Bill Frisell, Tortoise, Jimmy Guiffre or anything doesn't scat or have 4 brash trumpets blaring I think the remnants of that language are still alive and well….Alberto Iglesias anyone?


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## MikeH (Feb 19, 2014)

Dave Connor @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Each part is telling it's own story but also each part is written properly and without _mistakes_; meaning there isn't some awful jarring weakness that would get a student the red pencil in the third week of his freshman composition class.



Dave, what do you mean by 'properly' written? Are you talking about how both melodies relate to the background harmony? 

Love the piece, by the way.


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## G.E. (Feb 19, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJM_cZAhbGQ :lol:


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## Dave Connor (Feb 19, 2014)

MikeH @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Dave Connor @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Each part is telling it's own story but also each part is written properly and without _mistakes_; meaning there isn't some awful jarring weakness that would get a student the red pencil in the third week of his freshman composition class.
> ...


Mike, It's actually a bit silly to analyze this piece and I don't listen to music in this way. I just give a thumbs up or down in the way any music hits me. I am not an academic on the hunt for _mistakes_. The serious tone of the thread title doesn't stand up to it's own scrutiny so I just thought I would answer in a serious, scientific way. For fun though really.

To your question: Yes exactly. If you listen to the trumpet part all on it's own it sounds perfectly agreeable with the harmonic background and doesn't violate the basic tenets of melodic writing such as leaping in a way that suggests a harmony other than one sounding or not properly resolving non-chord tones or just plain creating ugly dissonances. The same for the suspension in the strings which is approached and resolved in a textbook manner. The resulting tension or dissonance between the two parts is a matter of one's taste as to it's appeal. Mr. Zimmer said his taste for this particular dissonance has changed over the years so there you have it. Not a _mistake_ from such a sure-footed composer but a _choice_. The thread title should probably have been along the lines of, _Do You Like This Sort Of Thing?_ Yes would be my answer.


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## Cruciform (Feb 19, 2014)

vicontrolu @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> What are your thoughts about it? Do you tend to avoid this when you are composing and working on the main melody too?



I do this kind of thing so routinely I had to listen multiple times to even 'hear' what you are talking about. One of my producers is 'sensitive' to it and I'm usually required to edit it out.


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