# John Williams copying classical composers?!?



## Leandro Gardini (Sep 28, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15P3aj5xCbE

This guy is turning this fact into a negative way. Makes no sence to me because he´s not a composer and can´t know this is so common. No composer is 100% himself!!!

Thoughts???


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## bigdog (Sep 28, 2009)

some people clearly have too much time on their hands


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 28, 2009)

bigdog @ Mon Sep 28 said:


> some people clearly have too much time on their hands




Some people are so worried about the level of success of others they forget to work on their on goals and accomplishments.

:wink: 


If someone said a cue of mine sounded as if Anton Webern had scored Forbidden Planet - I would be honored.


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## dcoscina (Sep 28, 2009)

If he thinks Williams is bad, he should check out Jimmy Horner!


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## Niah (Sep 28, 2009)

it's the end of all music


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## germancomponist (Sep 28, 2009)

I think what John did is 100% ok. 

It is no secret that all composers steel something here and there. Very often this happens unconsciously because they have studied all the old scores and it is no wonder that many tunes remain in their minds.

And writing to temp tracks in well common practice. o-[][]-o 

Gunther


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## bryla (Sep 28, 2009)

Many of them don't really match, eh?

I don't mind similarities between composers and I'm not one to blame people like JW for copying, but! I have found several good examples of JW sound in Daphnis and Chloe


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## stevenson-again (Sep 29, 2009)

> Many of them don't really match, eh?



that's exactly what i thought. (with the exception of the tatooine cue)

i have to say, what this exposes is not JW ripping people but the level of his musicianship. ALL the biggies borrowed to a large extent from those they admired that came before them, as well as their contemporaries. in those times it was considered a mark of respect, issues of copyright really...just weren't.

part of the creative process is knowing which sound world to inhabit that would best suit picture, and JW just nails it every time. but none of these examples are as direct a rip as say zimmers battle with the goths from gladiator, or silvestri's basic instinct rip in beowulf, or any number of other 'sound-a-likes' you would be able to find in nearly every score.

what i found ironic is exactly that all bar one of these examples sounds directly ripped! influenced and inspired by maybe - but not directly ripped.

and then when you consider JW is probably the most emulated composer in history....(sweeping statement i know but i can't think of a single better example).


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## Jaap (Sep 29, 2009)

It only shows for me that JW can recreate some orchestrations very well, but wouldn't say it is a rip off.


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## alphonse (Sep 29, 2009)

+1
=o Daphnis and Chloe /\~O best score o-[][]-o ever


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## bryla (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes  just heard it with LSO and LSC last week


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## mixolydian (Sep 29, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Tue Sep 29 said:


> or silvestri's basic instinct rip in beowulf


As I'm not familiar with Beowulf what tracks are you referring to?


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## stevenson-again (Sep 29, 2009)

> As I'm not familiar with Beowulf what tracks are you referring to?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmYC5yp7 ... re=related

actually - it's not all THAT much of a rip. i recently had to rip IT and remembered it as being very basic instinct like. it was just to mind really....

it was clearly temped with crossed legs and another cue i can't remember which.


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## stevenson-again (Sep 29, 2009)

have been fighting the fight for JW...

ah you can tell he is not a composer but a music lover. film composer by virtue of time constraints and the wedding of temp to picture can be forced to be immitate more closely and more often than we might like.

but i will not have JW being brought down. for those of us who struggle on in this industry and form of art, his legacy is beyond reproach. i do believe he is one of the greatest composers - at least in terms of craft - of our time, and up there with those who went before him.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 29, 2009)

Who have I *not* copied??!!!

>8o :mrgreen:


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## stevenson-again (Sep 29, 2009)

> Who have I not copied??!!!



me Ned, you haven't copied me! and i would have considered it such an honour.

i tell you what, you can have one of my favourite riffs. it goes dah-dah-dah dah-dah-dah.

d-f-a Bb-a-f....you know the rest. in triplets. cellos. octave below middle c.


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## stevenson-again (Sep 29, 2009)

oh no - don't be sorry. glad to see it being used in such high-brow fare.


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## Ed (Sep 29, 2009)

Williams copies loads. I still love him :D

Its amazing people gave Zimmer such a hard time outside ripping a piece off still in copyright.


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## Ed (Sep 29, 2009)

And I think of classical music like sample libraries for notes. You're meant to steal.

Lol


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## Tilman (Sep 30, 2009)

At least JW makes a good choice getting his "inspiration" by the great 20th century composers - better than copying other film composers, like many others tend to do..


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 30, 2009)

Well, from what I've read of the history of music, most composers copied their contemporaries as much as the 'greats' before them.


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## Stevie (Sep 30, 2009)

I really don't understand the problem, especially not the Youtube-dude. I mean JW still has his very own distinctive style/sound. Ok, he copied/borrowed or whatever... It's pretentious to behave like that: "Oh, no the master has copied! I'm so disappointed!"
That's ridiculous. We all know that every composer borrows subconsciously. I'm actually surprised that he didn't do a video with Zimmer.


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## OvaltineJenkins (Oct 5, 2009)

It seems to me that film composers have a tough job to do and in a very short period of time: make music for the movie. They're not expected to come up with 100% original standalone musical masterpieces, although sometimes they do it anyway. In the case of Star Wars I believe it was George Lucas that used Holst, Wagner, etc. to mock up the soundtrack, and asked JW to do something along those lines. I'm not disappointed in JW one bit--he did his job very, very well.


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## Mahlon (Oct 5, 2009)

I perceive John Williams is doing more of an "homage" to these composers -- not copying in the 'stealing' sense. He doesn't need to copy.

Mahlon


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## JMDNYC (Oct 5, 2009)

The people at Film Score Monthly did a good podcast on this subject back in October of 06. I found a link to it here:

http://cdn2.libsyn.com/fsmpodcast/FSM_Podcast_017.mp3?nvb=20091005164651&nva=20091006165651&t=03e59e94c2c82b32a496d (http://cdn2.libsyn.com/fsmpodcast/FSM_P ... 82b32a496d)

Or just go to iTunes, search "Film Score Monthly" and click on the 16th one down called "Opportunity Makes a Thief." They have some John Williams comparisons, but also Horner and others.


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## lux (Oct 5, 2009)

Mahlon @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> I perceive John Williams is doing more of an "homage" to these composers -- not copying in the 'stealing' sense.
> 
> Mahlon



Exactly. Something we all happen to do and probably should do more often imho.

After all, composers that have personality show it whatever they do.


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## re-peat (Oct 5, 2009)

Precisely. Strange how many times the word 'copying' is used in this thread, when in fact John Williams has never done anything of the sort (with the single exception perhaps of that Star Wars-bit which comes indeed very close, both in composition and orchestration, to the opening of the Sacre's 2nd tableau.) 
The way I see it, is that John Williams _assimilates_, which is something entirely different from copying. There are quite a few 'assimilated' Stravinsky-moments in Jaws, but not one bar is a straight copy, it's always 'Williams music' and never 'Stravinsky music'. (Just like Stravinsky himself assimilated Pergolesi and a few other composers for his ballet music "Pulcinella". Same thing.)
And, on occasion, he uses a well-known idiom — Tchaikovsky's "Nutcracker" music for instance (the Christmas ballet par excellence) — when it is effective in the score, in this case "Home Alone". That particular example is obviously a very _conscious_ reference and it's quite ridiculous to assume that Williams ever might have hoped for a moment that no one would notice that he is paraphrasing Tchaikovsky at that point. On the contrary, that music ("Holiday Flight") works even better — it gets that extra layer of meaning, by connotation —, if one does know which piece was used as its model.

_


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2009)

Williams is not guilty of copying classical composers any more or less than Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North, Korngold, Rosza, or any other revered film score composer did in their careers. The only reason Goldsmith never received as much flack is due to the fact his inspirations were Varese, Bartok, Schoenberg, and the other modernists. That does not invalidate his amazing talents any more than a passing similarity to Prokofiev or Vaughan Williams or whomever in Williams' own music.

Frankly, when people purport these types of things, it underlines their own musical naiveté.


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 5, 2009)

JMDNYC @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> The people at Film Score Monthly did a good podcast on this subject back in October of 06. I found a link to it here:
> 
> http://cdn2.libsyn.com/fsmpodcast/FSM_Podcast_017.mp3?nvb=20091005164651&nva=20091006165651&t=03e59e94c2c82b32a496d (http://cdn2.libsyn.com/fsmpodcast/FSM_P ... 82b32a496d)
> 
> Or just go to iTunes, search "Film Score Monthly" and click on the 16th one down called "Opportunity Makes a Thief." They have some John Williams comparisons, but also Horner and others.


Listening to the link....great one, thanks!!!


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## Ed (Oct 5, 2009)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> The way I see it, is that John Williams _assimilates_, which is something entirely different from copying.



Resistance is futile.


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## Daniel James (Oct 5, 2009)

Always makes me laugh that when someone says something bad about John Williams there is a sudden surge of people jumping to his defense.

People are saying he is paying homage to the classical composers....but lets all be honest here, most of us know how this works, the real story is probably that he had a deadline to meet and needed some fast ideas, so he found a track that worked with the scene and remade it with a few tweaks.

Its OK people you dont have to be personally offended if your idol is as much a hack as the rest of us LOL

Dan


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## Stevie (Oct 6, 2009)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> Precisely. Strange how many times the word 'copying' is used in this thread, when in fact John Williams has never done anything of the sort (with the single exception perhaps of that Star Wars-bit which comes indeed very close, both in composition and orchestration, to the opening of the Sacre's 2nd tableau.) ....



You nailed it Piet. JW assimilates indeed structures and characteristics. Every composer does that. I haven't heard a single note that was copied on that youtube video. While that guy still goes bonkers about JW copying music...


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## Stevie (Oct 6, 2009)

@DJ

Of course, JW is (almost) everybody's darling.
But for me it is clear:
JW does not copy melodies, au contraire, his melodies are very distinguishable. You hear a theme and you immediately know: it's JW, even though you heard the theme for the first time.
That's pretty unique in film scoring imho.


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## TheoKrueger (Oct 6, 2009)

He Groks them


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## Kennith Nichol (Oct 18, 2009)

Originality is so very overrated. It's destroying the concept of music in general i think. Look at the contemporary avant-garde music. I personally can't stand to even call it music.

If you go back 300 years, deriving something from someone else's idea (and of course dedicating it to them in the highest respect) was received humbling and honourably.

Go back even further to the concept of Cantus Firmus and well, i think that's called plagerisim today.

Silly, really.
Music is about growth and expression of the soul. Not cognitive, logical, innovative originality. Using those more scientific approaches to create new ways of expression that appeal to listeners.. that's musical progress i suppose.

I could go on and on but that's off topic.
To sum it up, originality = highly overrated. JW is a good film composer.

Oh to beat the drum one more time.
Hans Zimmer + Holst's The Planets "Mars" = Gladiator "The Battle".

-Kennith


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 18, 2009)

John Williams copying classical composers?!? No way!!!!

Seriously though, he's been doing it since day one. Listen to any public radio classical station long enough and you'll know what I mean. Debussy, Sousa, Elgar, Stravinsky - the list goes on and on. Of course, those composers also borrowed ideas from their contemporaries too so the practice isn't a new one.


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## re-peat (Oct 19, 2009)

KNichol @ Mon Oct 19 said:


> Originality is so very overrated.


True. Usually though only by those people who believe that 'originality', in and by itself, has some sort of artistic value which, of course, it hasn't. The funny thing is, it's often those of rather limited talent or narrow artistic vision, who tend to rate 'originality' as being something essential in art. Even stranger: this very superficial form of originality which these people are seeking/demanding, makes them quite blind & deaf for the real originality/authenticity that is always an intrinsic characteristic/quality of anyone with exceptionnal talents, inevitably so. (The originality of being exceptionnal.) It's not the clever assimilation of the past in the music of John Williams that makes him the composer that he is, no, it's the depth and uniqueness of his talent which makes him singularly original.
Artists of such proportions don't worry about 'being original', like lesser artists tend to do, because they know - much better than everyone else - that their combination of talent, creativity, passion and craft gives their work a uniqueness far more profound and original than the meaningless, illusionary and shallow originality of 'doing something new' (whatever that may be) which all too many people still mistake for artistic merit.

_


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## Ed (Oct 19, 2009)

Aww man he removed the video


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## Ed (Oct 19, 2009)

KNichol @ Sun Oct 18 said:


> Originality is so very overrated. It's destroying the concept of music in general i think. Look at the contemporary avant-garde music. I personally can't stand to even call it music.
> 
> If you go back 300 years, deriving something from someone else's idea (and of course dedicating it to them in the highest respect) was received humbling and honourably.
> 
> Go back even further to the concept of Cantus Firmus and well, i think that's called plagerisim today.



Its all "emergent" there are no truly original thoughts and if you think you can find an original idea it just means you dont know where they came up with the idea from.


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