# How to mix orchestral music - what plugins?



## hansandersen (Dec 31, 2018)

Hi. I barely know anything about mixing and I've heard it's a crucial part in making your score sound complete. Do anyone of you have some tips or could you maybe link me to some videos about orchestral mixing? I tried Google/YT and nothing useful came up. What plugins do people use the most? As of now I've had a look at FabFilter Q3/Valhalla... any other plugins? Thanks in advance!


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## ProfoundSilence (Dec 31, 2018)

Fabfilter alone could work if it's good source material/programming. 

if you want to sound like it "does in the movies" then use something similar to what they use. A tried and true reverb unit is the bricasti, and while I don't own one myself - seventh heaven(I like the professional version) sounds great to me. 

not saying you couldn't use a convolution - but it's not typically something that would get used on an actual recording of an orchestra, although it might help with placement/wetness for very dry libraries or close recordings. 

some saturators, tape sims, maybe subtle compression - but you'd have to give us an example of a reference recording and what your own source material is


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## ProfoundSilence (Dec 31, 2018)

I'm actually playing around with just EQ and mic balance before I start rebuilding my template

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/eq-only-example-mp3.17574/][/AUDIOPLUS]


this is just using pro-q3 and kontakt. 

some plugins I would suggest in general though:

Fabfilter pro-Q3, pro-L/C2, Saturn.
S1 stereo
Seventh Heaven
Waves NLS
Waves LoAir
Sometimes I like Kramer Tape

and people use the crap out of clariphonic, I've just been too lazy to pick it up.(honestly sometimes oneknob brighter gets thrown on things when I'm lazy)


but above all else - have an idea for the sound you want going into it. use a reference recording, even if you plan on deviating from it.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 31, 2018)

If you barely know anything about mixing, I'd not waste too much money on plug-ins yet. Especially not for stuff like Fabfilter.

Fabfilter is popular because they're very precise, clean tools with very advanced features - for advanced users. But there's nothing about their EQ that would make your music sound different if you used it instead of your DAWs stock EQ. It doesn't have its own sound or anything - it shouldn't have. It's designed to be an exact, uncolored tool. Don't expect too much. If you're more of a novice when it comes to mixing, it just does tons of stuff you plain don't understand yet - and don't need at all.

You're correct that mixing is an important step in making any kind of production complete - not just orchestral. But that's not a question of buying all the right plug-ins, but understanding the process. There's no real tutorial on "orchestral mixing". Because the general mixing principles apply. There are of course some little tricks and tweaks that some engineers like to do dealing with a certain kind of source material, but that comes later and is personal style and experience.

So, that's the not-very-fun, not very gearhead, anti-"take my money" advice: invest more time learning about mixing and audio processing - there's ton of information out there - and get to know and understand your stock plug-ins. Put in the work. That way, you will be able to make educated decisions when it comes to future plug-in purchases.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jan 1, 2019)

Honestly, stick with the stock plugins of your DAW for now. You can get 95% of the way there with stock + free plugins. The other 5% will only come with time, not new plugins.

Use your stock EQ, Compressor, Limiter.
And here are some freebies for extras:
TDR Nova for dynamic EQ: https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-nova/
Proximity for pushing things 'back in the mix': https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/
iZotope Imager for stereo width control (narrowing and widening): https://www.izotope.com/en/products/master-and-deliver/ozone/ozone-imager.html
Voxengo SPAN for spectral and volume analysis: https://www.voxengo.com/group/free-vst-plugin-download/
For convolution reverb, get this: https://www.meldaproduction.com/MConvolutionEZ and use the free bricasti Impulse Responses from samplicity http://www.samplicity.com/bricasti-m7-impulse-responses/
For saturation and drive try this: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/IVGI/IVGI.php

If you can't make it sound good with stock plugins and those freebies listed above, the fault lies somewhere else.

BUT, if you _still _want to spend some money... look at Toneboosters plugins. Fantastic value and light on CPU. Grab a couple waves plugins on sale, like the SSL Master Bus compressor, PuigTec EQ, J37, LoAir...
iZotope Neutron for a great all-in-one mix/master suite with clever EQ features and harmonic exciters... Lexicon verbs (PCM bundle if you want to spend lots, MXP if you want to spend very little), or as ProfoundSilence recommended above, Seventh Heaven by LiquidSonics.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jan 1, 2019)

D-Verb


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## leon chevalier (Jan 1, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> If you barely know anything about mixing, I'd not waste too much money on plug-ins yet. Especially not for stuff like Fabfilter.
> 
> Fabfilter is popular because they're very precise, clean tools with very advanced features - for advanced users. But there's nothing about their EQ that would make your music sound different if you used it instead of your DAWs stock EQ. It doesn't have its own sound or anything - it shouldn't have. It's designed to be an exact, uncolored tool. Don't expect too much. If you're more of a novice when it comes to mixing, it just does tons of stuff you plain don't understand yet - and don't need at all.
> 
> ...





Jdiggity1 said:


> Honestly, stick with the stock plugins of your DAW for now. You can get 95% of the way there with stock + free plugins. The other 5% will only come with time, not new plugins.
> 
> Use your stock EQ, Compressor, Limiter.
> And here are some freebies for extras:
> ...


You guys said everything ! Perfect answers for a start !


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 1, 2019)

I don't think someone CAN waste money on a fabfilter EQ... unless they have absolutely no clue how to use an EQ and don't want to learn. 

when I first started I thought that much money for an EQ seems silly, but the only reason I upgraded to pro-Q3 from Q2 was realizing I could EQ multi-output plugins with a single instance. The dynamic EQ *seems* cool, but it's not going to change a whole lot other than taming low mids, or adding a little more "air excitement"


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## dflood (Jan 1, 2019)

I have read some really good things about https://mixwiththemasters.com/ on this forum. That might be the best place to invest some money before buying more plug-ins. I plan to check it out myself.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 1, 2019)

I thought murphy did a masterclass video, but last time I checked it turned out to be a seminar... 

I died on the inside hahaha. Would LOVE for shawn murphy to do a video masterclass series.


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## Wally Garten (Jan 1, 2019)

hansandersen said:


> Hi. I barely know anything about mixing and I've heard it's a crucial part in making your score sound complete. Do anyone of you have some tips or could you maybe link me to some videos about orchestral mixing? I tried Google/YT and nothing useful came up. What plugins do people use the most? As of now I've had a look at FabFilter Q3/Valhalla... any other plugins? Thanks in advance!



1) Completely agree with others who say start with the tools you already have. Standard DAW tools will do almost all the work.
2) YouTube and the internet are filled with people saying you need to EQ everything, you need to put a compressor on everything, you need complicated effects busses for all your parts. I think it's better to try to do less, though. Especially with sample libraries -- they tend to sound pretty good out of the box. My rule of thumb is that I add stuff as I need it, or just to see if it makes a difference, but never as a matter of course.
3) Go to extremes, then dial back. At first, it's hard to get a sense of how much of a certain mixing plugin you need. The differences can be subtle. It's okay to turn knobs all the way up to see what happens; that's how you learn.
4) A/B comparisons are very helpful. Click the bypass button on the plugin; is it really doing anything?
5) Generally, you need less reverb than you initially think.
6) I also agree with the idea that mixing is pretty much mixing; that said, keep in mind that orchestral works -- especially classical works -- tend to have a pretty large dynamic range, and that's part of the aesthetic. Don't over-compress or slam up the limiter. 
7) Be wary of plugins that promise to "analyze" and automatically improve your mix. They don't always give good advice.
8) Despite 2), 6), and 7), the Klevgrand Korvpressor is a very nice "sausage" type compressor/limiter to add at the end. Just makes things sound louder and clearer without too much disruption.
9) Learn to use sends/aux/busses instead of inserting plugins on individual tracks. If instruments are experiencing the same compression patterns, or are mixed together in the same reverb tail, it tends to "glue" them together and make them sound like they're in a coherent space/sonic universe. (This is part of why you will often see people on here looking for "dry" instruments -- many people want to put all the various VI's into a single reverb, rather than having the manufacturers' reverb sounds slapping around all over the place.)
10) This is the worst for someone like me who likes to start writing by just banging around on various instruments that have the right emotional connotations, but try to keep in mind that a good mix starts with orchestration/instrumentation. There's only so much room in people's ears for any give band of frequencies. (The low range can get especially crowded.) Figure out what sounds you want in each range. That way instruments aren't competing with each other.
11) Bass sounds should be in mono or basically centered.

Those are all the tips I can think of at the moment. Good luck!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 1, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I thought murphy did a masterclass video, but last time I checked it turned out to be a seminar...
> 
> I died on the inside hahaha. Would LOVE for shawn murphy to do a video masterclass series.


He did a couple of videos on MWTM and I believe they filmed some more content with him (maybe a mix deconstruction) during the seminar.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 1, 2019)

I'd suggest Fabfilter (for convenience over stock plugins), Seventh Heaven, and Altiverb. After that you can get color plugins like different EQ's or distortion plugins. Picking something like which high shelf you're going to use on orchestra for a given project can have a big impact but it's more of an advanced thing. It was interesting to see Shawn Murphy compare some of the high shelf plugins he normally uses for different scores.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 1, 2019)

You know, before samples (and the digital revolution), when TV and film music was recorded live, music was orchestrated so skillfully that the engineer barely touched the faders. He (rarely she in those days) would know when solos were coming up, but otherwise the music basically mixed itself.

Reading the title of this thread, it occurs to me that you should be able to get close to that Platonic ideal when writing for sampled orchestra just by using EQ and the right reverb.

Never going to happen, of course, but you'd think it could.


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## I like music (Jan 2, 2019)

While this is being discussed, do people use compressors a lot? My understanding of what a compressor does may be wrong (I'm a total newbie too) but I understand it to limit/shrink the dynamic range (in terms of loudness?) of a track, so that the loudest parts (crash cymbals) aren't SO much louder than the quietest parts. Is that right?

I constantly feel like I don't want to apply this to my music, but it seems like a TON of people use it. Is it for listening convenience (e.g. you don't want all those people who bought your cd constantly reaching for the volume knob on their stereo etc?). Are most orchestral recordings I hear compressed to _some_ extent?


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## S.M Hassani (Jan 2, 2019)

IMHO Mixing is about knowing what to do while using tools that don't get in the way of doing it. I may come back to this later.

For now let me suggest a couple of reasonably priced tools (being currently on sale) which will probably make your mixing life easier:

*Sonible's Smart Eq2:* ($89 right now, or just $9 to upgrade from older versions)

Because it will give you something really important when mixing: another -hopefully better- perspective on the sound you're working with. This will help you learn the art of EQ in general.

*BOZ Digital Labs Transgressor:* (Also see Big Beautiful Door) $29 each today.

Because it will help you mix and shape percussive material better than most other tools I've tried.

Do your own research and build from there.

Best of luck,

S.M


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 2, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, before samples (and the digital revolution), when TV and film music was recorded live, music was orchestrated so skillfully that the engineer barely touched the faders. He (rarely she in those days) would know when solos were coming up, but otherwise the music basically mixed itself.
> 
> Reading the title of this thread, it occurs to me that you should be able to get close to that Platonic ideal when writing for sampled orchestra just by using EQ and the right reverb.
> 
> Never going to happen, of course, but you'd think it could.



This is my philosophy too Nick. Obviously there are fudges with samples to make 'em work, but a solid course in orchestration is surely the starting point for the OP if he hasn't already done this as that is where the real art of "mixing" occurs. Admittedly though, knowing about mastering in this day and age is as important, and I am checking out the helpful links here too. Best of all though, listen to recordings then twiddle your knob to match...


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## averystemmler (Jan 2, 2019)

Echoing the above, I think it's also easy sometimes to forget step one, which is getting the balance right. If you keep EQing something but it never seems to fit, it might actually just need to be turned down. Or, maybe removed, or reorchestrated. I've spent an eternity hacking every offensive frequency out of a sound before coming to the realization "if I hate this damn harp so much, why am I using it?"

With samples, it's effortless to go overboard. Really analysing how much clutter you need can be liberating, and make mixing that much easier.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 2, 2019)

I definitely wouldn't worry about plugins when it comes to mixing. They won't help until later down the road.

Just spend time learning how to compose, and orchestrate properly, because that too will have a big impact on your mix.

#1 easy beginner tip on mixing though: don't use too much reverb.


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## Francis Bourre (Jan 3, 2019)

As stated above, learning would be the best investment for now. It will help you later to decide what you need for which purpose... The sound engineering foundations are universal, nothing dedicated to orchestral music.
At the same time, taking benefit from your teacher(s) you could use trials and educational discount to chose/buy your 1st plugins.

Tools power grow only with knowledge and experience.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 3, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, before samples (and the digital revolution), when TV and film music was recorded live, music was orchestrated so skillfully that the engineer barely touched the faders. He (rarely she in those days) would know when solos were coming up, but otherwise the music basically mixed itself.



I was going to say something about orchestration before Nick (and Mike Fox) chimed in here... but to quote HZ: 'orchestration is mixing'. So getting a balanced template and focusing on MIDI programming are a great place to start.


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## ghostnote (Jan 3, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, before samples (and the digital revolution), when TV and film music was recorded live, music was orchestrated so skillfully that the engineer barely touched the faders. He (rarely she in those days) would know when solos were coming up, but otherwise the music basically mixed itself.
> 
> Reading the title of this thread, it occurs to me that you should be able to get close to that Platonic ideal when writing for sampled orchestra just by using EQ and the right reverb.
> 
> Never going to happen, of course, but you'd think it could.


I agree. Had the chance to see the desk of a recording session of a concert performance the other day. Had a little chat with the engineer and noticed that the only thing that he processed was indeed the singers. The orchestra is built in mind to take advantage of the full spectrum and simultaniously leave every instrument section its own space.

Mixing samples tough, is different.


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## Loïc D (Jan 3, 2019)

Agree too.
If the mix sounds bad, blame the arrangement / orchestration.
_
(That said I'm still at a stage where both orchestration & mix are guilty)_


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 3, 2019)

If the arrangement is already great, check the balance between the instruments next. Mixing is really all about the balance between everything - you'll find automation plays a huge role in this.


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## bryla (Jan 3, 2019)

Just to hit the point again: I get sent a lot of composer demos and their project files. The ones that sound best have the least amount of processing and clearest arrangement.


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## AdamKmusic (Jan 3, 2019)

Thinking about picking up Seventh Heaven (seen some comments in here about it), I'm currently running the demo version without an iLok but it says it requires it? In my iLok License Manager I have iLok cloud which it is registered on, can I use that full the version too? If anyone knows..


EDIT: Ahh basically an always online thing, guess I’ll skip until I get a ilok USB


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 3, 2019)

By the way, the reason samples require so much work - or the main reason - is because they're not players listening to each other!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 3, 2019)

bryla said:


> Just to hit the point again: I get sent a lot of composer demos and their project files. The ones that sound best have the least amount of processing and clearest arrangement.



Of course, it depends on the context. That wouldn't apply to electronica, for example!

But there is a temptation to keep adding stuff, just because we have it and feel like we should be using it.


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## bryla (Jan 3, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Of course, it depends on the context. That wouldn't apply to electronica, for example!


Of course! The topic however is how to mix orchestral music.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 3, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I was going to say something about orchestration before Nick (and Mike Fox) chimed in here... but to quote HZ: 'orchestration is mixing'. So getting a balanced template and focusing on MIDI programming are a great place to start.


I don't think I've ever seen him say that, infact if anything stereotypical HZ has nothing to do with a traditional balanced orchestra

what you're saying is true about orchestral music ofcourse, it just doesn't really line up with something HZ himself seems like he'd say(or atleast he pretty much champions the exception of it)


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 4, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I don't think I've ever seen him say that, infact if anything stereotypical HZ has nothing to do with a traditional balanced orchestra
> 
> what you're saying is true about orchestral music ofcourse, it just doesn't really line up with something HZ himself seems like he'd say(or atleast he pretty much champions the exception of it)



I was referring to this post from a few years back -> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/tips-on-improving-my-epic-percussions.37492/#post-3778925


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 4, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I was referring to this post from a few years back -> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/tips-on-improving-my-epic-percussions.37492/#post-3778925



From that link:

"I can control the mics in my sampler, but I love the sound of the room more than the close-mics. But obvious one trick that helps to preserve clarity is to move the far mics and out-riggers forward in time and line all the transients up. I know that's impossible in nature - that time is determined by the distance of one mic to the other - but it still gives me a huge sound without getting all that flammy transient shit."

What's unclear in my brain - assuming Hans is still talking about samples - is how he moves the far mics and out-riggers forward without also moving the transients they're married to, but that is an interesting post.

Also interesting: *increasing* the predelay on strings is a good way to get clarity + big sound.


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## Wally Garten (Jan 4, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What's unclear in my brain - assuming Hans is still talking about samples - is how he moves the far mics and out-riggers forward without also moving the transients they're married to



In context it reads (to me) like he's actually talking about new recordings just for that piece, rather than stock samples. So I'd assume he's using multiple tracks: close mics on one track, far mics on another. Then just edging the far mic audio backward slightly to line up its transient with the transient in the close mic track? Must be a VERY small nudge, though -- even if your far mics are quite far away, I can't imagine the transients are very far apart. But it makes sense that lining them up would provide better clarity.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 4, 2019)

Wally Garten said:


> In context it reads (to me) like he's actually talking about new recordings just for that piece, rather than stock samples. So I'd assume he's using multiple tracks: close mics on one track, far mics on another. Then just edging the far mic audio backward slightly to line up its transient with the transient in the close mic track? Must be a VERY small nudge, though -- even if your far mics are quite far away, I can't imagine the transients are very far apart. But it makes sense that lining them up would provide better clarity.



I think you're right that it's live recordings.

Just to be clear, lining up percussion transients is a standard thing. Engineers have been doing that with drum mics since Pro Tools (at least that's when I first heard of it).


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## dawelsch (Jan 5, 2019)

I suggest you spend time on your rudimentary skills in mixing and continue listening to great scores to get the cinematic sound in your head.

At the same time, I recommend watching this, and many others like it:



It is quite advanced, however, Jake’s philosophy of mixing is quite simple and interesting.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 11, 2019)

ghostnote said:


> I agree. Had the chance to see the desk of a recording session of a concert performance the other day. Had a little chat with the engineer and noticed that the only thing that he processed was indeed the singers. The orchestra is built in mind to take advantage of the full spectrum and simultaniously leave every instrument section its own space.
> 
> Mixing samples tough, is different.



It is different, no question.

However, the "get it done quickly" film/TV sessions I'm talking about are somewhat different from regular classical recordings, which often have a lot of edits. And often there aren't even spot mics on live concert recordings (just a Decca tree or similar hanging from the ceiling - like EastWest's main mic position, by the way).


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## Mega (Jan 11, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> #1 easy beginner tip on mixing though: don't use too much reverb.



That's my number one crime. I love reverb!


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## chiefgeef (Dec 5, 2020)

Fabfilter ProQ
Voxengo Scanner (Free) 
Stock Plugin for your Compressors, saturators, limiters, etc. .to start at least until you get more comfortable with understanding how each is used and how their color might work for things here or not so much there. `That comes way down the road' For enhancers, distortion, toners if you want one , which i would get because their dope , shcleps that people have said is cool. I do orchestral stuff as of late , being I have some 'Heavycity' Libraries. NOrmally, Punch' - 200$ would it never be worth that but it goes for 50$ ever once in awhile so I just grabbed it, and works and there , fun little guy.

Reverbs I would say are tricky to wrap your head around until you've stepped into audio long enough to understand the differences and purposes of each. Now to build upon that fact I would believe reverbs transforms nd excel the desired sound to an enormous effect compared to other techniques using a different kind of effect - well and compression too. But they are aLL important...but from an untrained ear, reverb you as a beginner would appreciate the most. 

I will assume your an electronic music driven fellas (different genres focus different techniques/plugins/audio practices. If you are into rock for instance you will be doing a lot of time in the recording studio....as for electronic producers far less will they have to. Treatment of each stem/layer (i.e. the vocals of a track....or the 'Drums/Percussion' ) will have different techniques for plugin usage. I am not going to to sit and explain everything which I would if someone was shilling me...however that is on you to learn these things and how technique-different / and content-driven different that are. I.E. -------------
SAVE YOUR MONEY< BUY A COOL KEYBOARD or something to keep your interest while you learn as indulging in cool shit every once in awhile is a healthy practice to keep interest. BUT do your research and learning before you dive into expensive plugins - figure out your genres/or if your doing film or SFX as the main workload, what they use and how if you were a SFX driven guy and wanted to do FILM stuff, investing in a good convolution Verb wouldn't be a bad idea in the long run. BUT FIGURE YOUR SHIIT OUT FIRST BEFORE YOU DROP 800$ on ALTIVERB. - lol I happened to use that as an example.
GOOD luck,


and may the AUDIO - GODS be with you.

hummmmm hummmmmm hummmmm hummmmm hummmmmm. SO great AUDIO GODS you are....hummmmmm........hummmmmmmm ....Providing us with large RAM increase capapblities if we went PC .....hummmmmm.......hummmmmm


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## Andy_P (Dec 5, 2020)

Great tips here for mixing in general.



https://www.youtube.com/c/TheHouseofKushTV/videos


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