# Staffpad woodwinds?



## sundrowned

Looking to get a woodwind add on. Which one is the best?  Or...how would you describe the libraries you own, how do they compare? Pros, cons etc. Atm I'm probably leaning towards Berlin. Any reason not to?

Any info appreciated thanks.


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## wcreed51

Someone posted this on the FB group:


It should give some idea of how things stack up


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## brandowalk

One thing to consider is if you


sundrowned said:


> Looking to get a woodwind add on. Which one is the best?  Or...how would you describe the libraries you own, how do they compare? Pros, cons etc. Atm I'm probably leaning towards Berlin. Any reason not to?
> 
> Any info appreciated thanks.


something to think about, is if you want a2 patches or separates instruments for 2nd chairs. Spitfire and CineSample have a2 patches and I believe Berlin has the instruments split out better for additional voices. (Can someone confirm?)

I originally thought I’d want the separate chairs, but I like the a2 patches and they helps to keep my staff numbers down with writing one staff for each instrument (ie. oboes, clarinet, bassoon).


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## brandowalk

brandowalk said:


> One thing to consider is if you
> 
> something to think about, is if you want a2 patches or separates instruments for 2nd chairs. Spitfire and CineSample have a2 patches and I believe Berlin has the instruments split out better for additional voices. (Can someone confirm?)
> 
> I originally thought I’d want the separate chairs, but I like the a2 patches and they helps to keep my staff numbers down with writing one staff for each instrument (ie. oboes, clarinet, bassoon).


I should add, I use primarily Spitfire WW 80% of the time as I prefer the sound and room. I use CineSample for 2nd chairs if needed or if a line works better with that library or need something a bit more straightforward. I find the timing of some of the CineWind shorts a bit rushed for some reason.


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## Rodney Money

I’m getting my iPad Pro next week, and after listening to numerous examples I personally believe Berlin sounds the most natural.


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## muratkayi

I own the Berlin woodwinds which I got as I had the impression from reading through the store feature lists that Spitfire did not include a Cor Anglais which I considered to be very important - but I think I either got it wrong or the list isn't complete, because I think it actually IS included. I think I saw a video with a Spitfire Cor Anglais. The a2 patches are indeed convenient (Spitfire), but I actually think it would be awesome if in future versions of Staffpad you could merge distinctly sampled versions of the same instrument into a single staff yourself.
That would also be useful the other way round: splitting a single staff into divisi (you can notate that already) and once it has two voices for - e. g.- two bassoons have two distincrly sampled bassoons play the two voices. That would make the Berlin library both very detailed and easy to handle.

But as it is right now the Berlin woodwinds are very thoroughly diversified, sampling several instruments more than once and I just found that more important than the convenience of a2 patches. 

Of course, Spitfire points out that two instruments sampled together sound different than two samples played together, but I would not claim that I could hear the difference blindfolded.


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## Gene Pool

muratkayi said:


> Of course, Spitfire points out that two instruments sampled together sound different than two samples played together, but I would not claim that I could hear the difference blindfolded.



You can hear it in the intonation mainly, and somewhat in the blend. Even though a3 samples work best in both respects, sometimes layered unisons can be better sometimes since sampled unisons perform as though one player.


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## stevebarden

I recently did a comparison between Berlin and Spitfire woodwinds. Pros and cons for each library. Neither is perfect.


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## dcoscina

brandowalk said:


> One thing to consider is if you
> 
> something to think about, is if you want a2 patches or separates instruments for 2nd chairs. Spitfire and CineSample have a2 patches and I believe Berlin has the instruments split out better for additional voices. (Can someone confirm?)
> 
> I originally thought I’d want the separate chairs, but I like the a2 patches and they helps to keep my staff numbers down with writing one staff for each instrument (ie. oboes, clarinet, bassoon).


Berlin has separate players for each part ie flute 1,
Flute 2
theu are separate players with different instruments so when you write for them in unison you get a reasonably accurate sound of two different players. I would think using a2 samples would be difficult because if you ever need to have harmonies in the parts, you’re not getting a realistic sound by adding another voice...


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## brandowalk

dcoscina said:


> Berlin has separate players for each part ie flute 1,
> Flute 2
> theu are separate players with different instruments so when you write for them in unison you get a reasonably accurate sound of two different players. I would think using a2 samples would be difficult because if you ever need to have harmonies in the parts, you’re not getting a realistic sound by adding another voice...


Yeah, I try to avoid any unrealistic voices. It takes a little time to change the instrument, but is not difficult to address.

For most changes from an a2 section or phrase to a solo line or a 
harmony, I change the instrument in the staff to the solo instrument. And back again when the parts are in unison. This works fairly well, is not difficult to program, and is usually transparent in the audio. Fortunately, the staff names at the left reflect whatever the current instrument (a2 or individual) is being played. This helps keep things straight when writing in sections.

I’m not saying this is better than using separate instruments for all, but works for me with keeping staff numbers down and for making the audio desired.

I’d be more than thrilled if Spitfire would sample second chairs for their WW and brass libraries! 😁


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## brandowalk

stevebarden said:


> I recently did a comparison between Berlin and Spitfire woodwinds. Pros and cons for each library. Neither is perfect.



Excellent Steve. This is really helpful. 
I hope you get royalties for every time that melody gets played For each instrument! 😃


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## Sean J

I own almost everything in the SP store. Give Meyerson a room (say... Lyndhurst) and low instruments sound natural yet rich... flawless. My choices often agree with that. For WW I only use Spitfire. For the rest, I mix and match and swap as needed. The best advice I can honestly give... sell stuff and buy it all.


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## muratkayi

@scoredfilms yea I have an inkling we will all end up doing exactly that anyway...


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## dcoscina

scoredfilms said:


> I own almost everything in the SP store. Give Meyerson a room (say... Lyndhurst) and low instruments sound natural yet rich... flawless. My choices often agree with that. For WW I only use Spitfire. For the rest, I mix and match and swap as needed. The best advice I can honestly give... sell stuff and buy it all.


I used a combination of CineBrass, Spitfire Bassoon and mostly Berlin orchestra on my last piece OCD and I think it all congealed pretty well. But that was a hybrid piece and written for single winds. I'm in the process of adapting it for proper concert hall performance in Dorico so I've added another wind part for that choir (they won't be able to compete with the brass otherwise in a real performance). For scoring where I am trying to approximate a live group, I will usually just rely on Berlin winds because they have each player for the winds. I'm told by friends who get works performed by orchestras that the accepted format is 1 staff per instrument rather than 2 parts on a single stave. I'm guessing that format is ideal for score study but a conductor's score apparently should have all instruments assigned to one staff each.

EDIT- maybe it's different in film scoring.... I dunno. I don't work in Hollywood or on movies with budgets for large orchestras....


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## Sean J

dcoscina said:


> I used a combination of CineBrass, Spitfire Bassoon and mostly Berlin orchestra on my last piece OCD and I think it all congealed pretty well. But that was a hybrid piece and written for single winds. I'm in the process of adapting it for proper concert hall performance in Dorico so I've added another wind part for that choir (they won't be able to compete with the brass otherwise in a real performance). For scoring where I am trying to approximate a live group, I will usually just rely on Berlin winds because they have each player for the winds. I'm told by friends who get works performed by orchestras that the accepted format is 1 staff per instrument rather than 2 parts on a single stave. I'm guessing that format is ideal for score study but a conductor's score apparently should have all instruments assigned to one staff each.
> 
> EDIT- maybe it's different in film scoring.... I dunno. I don't work in Hollywood or on movies with budgets for large orchestras....



I do use a2 on Hrn 1 for the sound, but I have one staff per part.


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## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> I used a combination of CineBrass, Spitfire Bassoon and mostly Berlin orchestra on my last piece OCD and I think it all congealed pretty well. But that was a hybrid piece and written for single winds. I'm in the process of adapting it for proper concert hall performance in Dorico so I've added another wind part for that choir (they won't be able to compete with the brass otherwise in a real performance). For scoring where I am trying to approximate a live group, I will usually just rely on Berlin winds because they have each player for the winds. I'm told by friends who get works performed by orchestras that the accepted format is 1 staff per instrument rather than 2 parts on a single stave. I'm guessing that format is ideal for score study but a conductor's score apparently should have all instruments assigned to one staff each.
> 
> EDIT- maybe it's different in film scoring.... I dunno. I don't work in Hollywood or on movies with budgets for large orchestras....



Ultimately, they will play whatever you give them. They may grumble about it, but they'll play it. The advantage of putting two or more instruments on a part is that in mid rehearsal you can say, "Flute 2, join flute 1 in mm. 67-71." It allows you to change the doublings on the fly. When I recorded my violin concerto, I had all four horns on the same part, and we moved things around in the section during the recording. Once a piece is exactly the way you know you want it, by all means, split them all out into separate parts, but if you are hearing something for the first time, it is very helpful if you have some flexibility.


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## muratkayi

Jett Hitt said:


> Ultimately, they will play whatever you give them. They may grumble about it, but they'll play it. The advantage of putting two or more instruments on a part is that in mid rehearsal you can say, "Flute 2, join flute 1 in mm. 67-71." It allows you to change the doublings on the fly. When I recorded my violin concerto, I had all four horns on the same part, and we moved things around in the section during the recording. Once a piece is exactly the way you know you want it, by all means, split them all out into separate parts, but if you are hearing something for the first time, it is very helpful if you have some flexibility.


This is a bit OT of me, but... 
I just thought that situations like these are what Staffpad Reader is designed for, but... What are the chances that a whole orchestra will bring their tablets or phablets (remember those?) to a rehearsal any time soon? Reader is such an awesome idea, but I couldn't help but think that I am dealing with people who refrain from buying a smartphone let alone tablets.


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## Jett Hitt

muratkayi said:


> This is a bit OT of me, but...
> I just thought that situations like these are what Staffpad Reader is designed for, but... What are the chances that a whole orchestra will bring their tablets or phablets (remember those?) to a rehearsal any time soon? Reader is such an awesome idea, but I couldn't help but think that I am dealing with people who refrain from buying a smartphone let alone tablets.


LMAO! I completely agree. Orchestral musicians tend to be a penurious lot. Any orchestral wide implementation of StaffPad will come from the top, and the orchestra will likely have to provide its membership with devices. They will, no doubt, be slow to embrace this technology because they are, by their very nature, a fairly conservative body. I think, however, that StaffPad and like apps will become commonplace simply because of the many advantages that they bring to a rehearsal/performance. The time that such an app saves and the utility that it provides are simply too great to ignore. The elimination of page turns alone is worth the price of admission.


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