# Recommend PC slave ?



## bcarwell (Feb 21, 2014)

I am looking for an "inexpensive" basic PC just for surfing music websites so I don't expose my DAW PC, e.g. nothing fancy. 

BUT: I might eventually use it as a VEP slave.

SO... can you recommend some appropriate basic brand name PC makes and models that I might watch for used that would fit the bill (e.g. Dell Model XYZ, HP, ...) ? I am trying to shoot for a very common mass produced (translate: cheap)
reliable PC that could eventually serve as a slave if the need arises but initially will only be used for internet music websites.

And what are the essential basics it must include so that it could initially be used for the first purpose but later be cost effectively upgraded when the time comes to serve as a VEP slave ?

i.e.

ethernet
basic video card
pci-e slots and USB2
minimum ? GB real memory w/ capacity for upgrade to 16 GB real memory or ... ?
bays for one or two basic extra terrabyte HDs for samples (presumably 1+ TB, 7200 rpm) or would SATA 3, USB3, etc. be necessary ? For a slave would SSDs be necessary for a modest 50 instrument template (note my main DAW machine is fine so far, i7, 32 GB, SSD for OS/DAW, second 1TB conventional HD, ...)

Any suggestions (especially specific makes/models like Dell Inspirion XYZ or ...whaever would be most appreciated by this semi-newb...

Tnx, Bruiser Bob and The Dry Heaves


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## Zardoz (Feb 21, 2014)

Just build one yourself. It's incredibly easy to do and there a million guides out there if you don't know how. That way you can start cheap with minimal ram and a low end cpu like an i3 and easily upgrade all the components as needed. Newegg.com or Amazon will have everything you need. There is no advantage these days in buying a pre-assembled PC with likely inferior parts and extra markup when you can build one yourself in about 30 minutes.


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## Mike Marino (Feb 21, 2014)

> There is no advantage these days in buying a pre-assembled PC with likely inferior parts and extra markup when you can build one yourself in about 30 minutes.



Even from places like VisionDAW and AVA Direct?


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## chillbot (Feb 21, 2014)

Disagree. There is tremendous advantage to having a company build you a DAW, not the least of which is sending a tech to your house for no charge to make sure everything is running. And I find their prices to be more than reasonable. Two amazing companies I use if you're in SoCal: VisionDAW (orange county) and Heavy Digital Media (Glendale).

But your advice and this post does nothing to help the poster. I can't speak for consumer-grade computers for audio, I use Dell for all of my non-audio stuff and I've never had a single issue, they are great. Someone on the Sonar forum was just raving about an HP for under $800 which surprises me but there it is:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/New-HP-Comput ... 88485.aspx


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## chillbot (Feb 21, 2014)

Sorry, that's Heavy Digital AUDIO. http://www.heavydigitalaudio.com/.

But anyway, if you're looking for a cheap consumer PC might as well look at the guy raving about a HP.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Zardoz @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Just build one yourself. It's incredibly easy to do and there a million guides out there if you don't know how. That way you can start cheap with minimal ram and a low end cpu like an i3 and easily upgrade all the components as needed. Newegg.com or Amazon will have everything you need. There is no advantage these days in buying a pre-assembled PC with likely inferior parts and extra markup when you can build one yourself in about 30 minutes.



As someone who has worked with PC's for the last 23 years, I feel this is a very naive statement.

Internet "guides" are only as good as the person who wrote them... and anyone can write a "guide" these days.

Plus, who will train a Windows novice on things like the registry, safe mode, drivers, startup programs, removing bloatware, windows update, "run as administrator", task manager, and all the other bullshit that comes with owning a Windows PC?

If you don't know Windows, just buy a basic box from Best Buy or Dell and get a PC-saavy friend to come over and remove all the "bloatware" that comes with a new machine.

For what it's worth, even as a PC guy, I wouldn't custom-assemble a box these days - I just don't want the support hassle. I am trying to make music and not build a hot-rod PC. If I am overclocking, liquid-cooling, bios flashing, driver-upgrading, etc. then I am signing up for a lot of self-imposed maintenance.

I mean, have you ever known a guy with a hot rod that wasn't always turning a wrench on the damn thing?


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## Zardoz (Feb 21, 2014)

chillbot @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Disagree. There is tremendous advantage to having a company build you a DAW, not the least of which is sending a tech to your house for no charge to make sure everything is running. And I find their prices to be more than reasonable. Two amazing companies I use if you're in SoCal: VisionDAW (orange county) and Heavy Digital Media (Glendale).
> 
> But your advice and this post does nothing to help the poster. I can't speak for consumer-grade computers for audio, I use Dell for all of my non-audio stuff and I've never had a single issue, they are great. Someone on the Sonar forum was just raving about an HP for under $800 which surprises me but there it is:
> 
> http://forum.cakewalk.com/New-HP-Comput ... 88485.aspx



The op was asking for advice about a consumer grade PC he could use for basic computing and later upgrade to a VEP slave. Of course a $2000-$3000 turnkey specialized audio PC from Vision or Heavy Digital is going to be better than a $500 cheapie from Best Buy, but that's not what he asked for. He wants cheap. And pound for pound, a computer you build with decent parts yourself will be better performing, easier to upgrade and likely cheaper than an overpriced Dell or HP. And the service you get from either of those two companies will be atrocious. The only major consumer PC company that provides decent service is Apple, and they are priced accordingly. 

As far as buying a specialized audio PC from one of the companies mentioned, I question what the big advantage is. There's nothing magical inside those boxes - they are just using standard off-the-shelf PC parts and putting them in a 4u rackmount chassis. If you are a pro on tight deadlines then the support _might_ be worth it. But if it's not mission critical, why spend so much more?

20 years ago, building a computer yourself was a tedious affair that involved moving motherboard jumpers and setting Irq addresses. Now it's a super simple snap and click affair. By buying cheap hp [/i]or dells off the shelf you can severely limit your upgrade path (limited ram upgradability, may not be able to upgrade the processor, may have too few or no extra sata ports for extra drives). It's a total crapshoot.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Zardoz @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> chillbot @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Disagree. There is tremendous advantage to having a company build you a DAW, not the least of which is sending a tech to your house for no charge to make sure everything is running. And I find their prices to be more than reasonable. Two amazing companies I use if you're in SoCal: VisionDAW (orange county) and Heavy Digital Media (Glendale).
> ...



I bought a $799 cheapie from Best Buy (Asus i7-4770) and upgraded to 32GB RAM from Crucial. I also added a 250GB SSD drive.

Oh, then I had to let the PC boot up, install Windows 8, install updates, remove bloatware, and then format the new drive.

Setting up this (pre-built consumer-grade) PC took me about 2-4 hours. You said you could build one in 30 minutes?!? Huh?

Sure, I'm not setting jumpers or reading manuals like the old days, but it's still a lot of work. And you have to understand that many people on this forum are Mac users.

Please don't over-simplify this kind of thing... really.


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## gsilbers (Feb 21, 2014)

bcarwell @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> I am looking for an "inexpensive" basic PC just for surfing music websites so I don't expose my DAW PC, e.g. nothing fancy.
> 
> BUT: I might eventually use it as a VEP slave.
> 
> ...



i got mine from www.magicmicro.com. easy, a few selections that were easily researchable, basic video card, big ram, low noise fans. most common componets.
and priced nicely.
the only advice is to get 650w + powersupply


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## bcarwell (Feb 21, 2014)

Sorry folks, I should have made it clear I was talking about a USED computer like this example currently advertised in Craigslist Austin and that I am using sample libraries and little if any audio:

Dell Inspiron Desktop Computer. Quad Core. Bluray Burner and more - $250 (Round Rock)
© craigslist - Map data © OpenStreetMap

(google map) (yahoo map)
Dell Inspiron Desktop Computer. About 2 years Old.
Quad Core Processor
8GB Ram
Blu-ray Burner
1 TB Hard Drive
Nvidia Geforce 9600 1GB Video Card (2 DVI and 1 HDMI)
Windows 7

Believe me I looked into a build by myself very seriously for my main DAW and having builds by various companies. I finally arrived at Fry's doing my build for $75 (!!!!) and matching ALL the component prices from NewEgg and the custom houses couldn't touch it. (And yes, I know all about the "tuning" Windoze, etc., etc.) And I am NOT talking about purchasing new from Best Buy, etc. and trying to get all the bloatware out of the thing.

I'm just looking for a USED computer from a known manufacturer that could serve for internet surfing and get residual value as a slave with some upgrades in a year if I decide to go Master-Slave with VEP. Seems there are a lot of used computers around that might fit the bill, and with an upgrade video card for HDMI, DVI or DP, a bigger hard drive and maybe 8 more GB if the mobo can take it seems I'd be doing real well cost wise over a new purchase (with Win 8 which I'd remove, bloatware, etc.) or a custom build by me or someone else. A mobo alone would be $200 and by the time I added a cheapo case, 4-8GB, HD, OS, graphics card, ... I'm WAY past the $250 Dell described above.

So.. I'm just looking for some suitable USED Makes and Models.

Thanks for the discussion so far ! After the above clarification, any nominees ?

Bob


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## Zardoz (Feb 21, 2014)

> I bought a $799 cheapie from Best Buy (Asus i7-4770) and upgraded to 32GB RAM from Crucial. I also added a 250GB SSD drive.
> 
> Oh, then I had to let the PC boot up, install Windows 8, install updates, remove bloatware, and then format the new drive.
> 
> ...



Perhaps I'm over-simplifying it, perhaps you're making it too complicated. Open case, screw in motherboard, insert ram into slots, insert CPU into socket, attach CPU cooler, plug in hard drives, connect power cables, boot PC, insert windows disc. Yes I can easily do that in 30 minutes. Of course it takes 15-20 minutes for windows to install, but that is largely an automated process since the windows Xp days. And since you have a full vanilla copy of windows there is no crapware to get rid of. There's probably another half hour needed to install updates and other software, set your network settings, install samples, etc. but none of it is difficult or intimidating and I think it's too bad that so many people get denied the freedom and flexibility that comes with building their own pcs because they are convinced by others that's its "too hard" or fraught with pitfalls. It really isn't. If you can figure out a complex piece of software like Logic or Cubase, you definitely have the skill to assemble the PC they run on. The only skill required is being able to use a Phillips head screwdriver and follow some simple instructions. 

I'm currently running windows 8.1 and VE Pro on a slave I built from parts connected to my iMac running Logic and it runs like butter 24/7.


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## bcarwell (Feb 22, 2014)

Zardoz tnx for the reply and encouragement re self-build. I <have> built before and have no problem doing so. But the main objective here is COST. I am not concerned at all about saving time, and I agree alot of a build is quick auto-mechanics unless you are on the bleeding edge. If I was talking about my main DAW machine and bleeding edge, yes I like the flexibility of a clean build, avoiding bloatware, etc. But for a <slave> everything Ive read indicates an older garden variety used machine should do fine and my point was they are <inexpensive> compared to builds with so many people having 2 year old computers they can't get squat for and wanting to upgrade. My only real question was what used computer makes/models to look for that might make for good solid slaves.

Again, tnx for your perspective. Maybe I will kludge another together... perhaps a bare bones for music internet cruising, with an eye towards upgrade path if/when I need the slave. This all probably wouldn't even be necessary if I wasn't scared to death about surfing the music internet with my DAW PC as I haven't hit any performance bottlenecks yet with it (i7, 32 GB, SSDs, etc.).

Bob


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## Zardoz (Feb 22, 2014)

bcarwell @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> Zardoz tnx for the reply and encouragement re self-build. I <have> built before and have no problem doing so. But the main objective here is COST. I am not concerned at all about saving time, and I agree alot of a build is quick auto-mechanics unless you are on the bleeding edge. If I was talking about my main DAW machine and bleeding edge, yes I like the flexibility of a clean build, avoiding bloatware, etc. But for a <slave> everything Ive read indicates an older garden variety used machine should do fine and my point was they are <inexpensive> compared to builds with so many people having 2 year old computers they can't get squat for and wanting to upgrade. My only real question was what used computer makes/models to look for that might make for good solid slaves.
> 
> Again, tnx for your perspective. Maybe I will kludge another together... perhaps a bare bones for music internet cruising, with an eye towards upgrade path if/when I need the slave. This all probably wouldn't even be necessary if I wasn't scared to death about surfing the music internet with my DAW PC as I haven't hit any performance bottlenecks yet with it (i7, 32 GB, SSDs, etc.).
> 
> Bob



If you are really worried about catching viruses on your daw while surfing (I think I'm understanding that correctly), you could go the free route and install VirtualBox and a copy of Ubuntu or Windows inside a virtual machine. This is effectively like having a second computer and keeps your real OS and software completely walled off from the VM. You can surf and do anything you want inside your virtual system and anything you "catch" there won't be able to get out. If your virtual machine does get screwed up or infected with something you can just delete the whole vm and start over.


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## rgames (Feb 22, 2014)

Regarding keeping your DAW unconnected from the Internet - I don't get that. I've spent my life around PC users and the only ones who have gotten a virus are ones who do stupid things like installing sketchy software or browsing sketchy websites. Common sense has kept me from any viruses during decades of PC use with all of my PC's constantly connected to the Internet and a bunch of other networks.

Regarding specialty PC makers, sure they help if you're not very savvy. That's why the machines cost more - you're paying for the support. The problem is that I haven't found any that know much about sample streaming. If your primary work is writing for the virtual orchestra then I think that value decreases very quickly and you're paying for support that doesn't really matter to you.

Regarding what PC for a slave, it depends. If you want to stream samples then I've found that an i5 is the sweet spot. I can't measure a practical difference in performance between a high-end i5 and any i7. If you want to run a bunch of synths on the slave then maybe there's a difference but I can't say for certain because I rarely use more than two or three synths on a project, not enough to show a difference.

rgames


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## bcarwell (Feb 23, 2014)

Richard, thanks for responding. Your wonderful video (which I too hope is stickied) is what prompted my question about slaves in the first place.

Would you please share more details on your slave. I know from your video its an i5, 32 GB ram, with SSDs, but was it a custom build or an off the shelf Dell, etc. (make/model ?) that you modified ?

And if you were looking for a slave today what would you get ?

I think everyone contemplating a slave is keen to hear more from you since you've been there, done that and walk the walk.

BTW I am only interested in streaming samples, no synths. And the reason for staying off the internet with my main DAW is simply a cost:benefit analysis. The cost (a few hundred bucks for a second "music internet" computer) far outweighs the horror show of, however unlikely given I am very careful not to do dumb things, having to reinstall OS, huge sample libraries and apps, etc. and the downtime. I just like the piece of mind knowing my DAW pc is going to a very limited number of sites and downloads.

Thanks again for responding and we look forward to your next video !


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## wst3 (Feb 23, 2014)

not to be argumentative... there are folks, usually one man shops, that build machines specifically for music production. Not many, but they do exist, and they do provide a much needed service.

It is not difficult to build your own computer from parts. The most difficult step is attaching the fan/heatsink assembly, and if you can read the directions you can handle this task. Beyond that it really is as simple as plugging cards into slots.

Where it can get tricky is installing the operating system and software - but at a minimum most of us have to install the software anyway.

Check out Jim at StudioCat:
www.studiocat.com

or Scott at ADK Pro Audio
http://www.adkproaudio.com/

I've dealt with both of these companies, and can recommend them without reservation. Jim will even provide consulting at a very reasonable rate if you still want to build your own.


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## arnau (Feb 23, 2014)

bcarwell @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Richard,
> 
> And if you were looking for a slave today what would you get ?



+1


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## rgames (Feb 23, 2014)

My slaves are i5 2500k overclocked to 4.4 GHz. The motherboard is an ASUS P8P67 (I think... check on that...) and I use the onbard Intel controllers for two SATA 6 Gbps SSD's (I have both Crucial M4 and OCZ drives - can't recall which OCZ but they're almost three years old now). I also use the onboard LAN which is, I think, a Marvell chip. The video card is some $30 fanless card - ATI I think. So I'd get whatever is close to that - the 2500k is an older i5 so I'mn not sure what replaced it.

I use it to run VSL, LASS (Kontakt), and Hollywood Brass (PLAY) via VE Pro. For running those libraries, the i5 2500k gives the same number of voices as the i7 4930k that I just got - about 1500 for VSL, about 1250 for LASS, and about 160 for PLAY. The CPU usage on the i5 2500k is higher than the i7 4930k but both hit bottlenecks elsewhere before the CPU, so the CPU is not a factor.

I don't do any Windows tweaks - I run it all stock on a fresh install. If you get a Dell or HP or whatever you really should wipe the drive and install a new copy of Windows. Note that you might have to buy a copy of Windows apart from the machine to get a clean install - a lot of the HP/Dell/etc. OS disks still contain a lot of crap you don't want.

Again, the specialty makers make good machines but they do charge more because of the support. The question you need to ask yourself is whether that support is worth it. The only bottlenecks I've come close to hitting are sample streaming bottlenecks and I'd be happy to pay extra for some help in that regard. However, when I've asked for specs on their sample streaming capability, all I get is silence. I think sample streaming is a niche that they don't really care about. Plus, I don't do any system tweaks and my systems seem to work fine for the music I write, so I'm not sure how much better off I would be with their support.

rgames


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## arnau (Feb 23, 2014)

Thanks Richard!


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## bcarwell (Feb 23, 2014)

Geesh ! That mobo is only $70. 

What i5 processor did you stick on it ?

I may have to rethink after all buying a used big box store pc and instead do a basic homebrew slave build as folks on this thread have suggested ! My whole schtick for a music internet surfer computer and eventually slave is something that is (1) cheap, and (2) WORKS ! Looks like maybe a build and adding SSD, etc. when I go slave is the way to go !

Again, Richard, what microprocessor chip would you stick in it ?


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