# Advise on whether or not to purchase subscription or perpetual license for Sibelius



## rmak (Jun 3, 2021)

Hello,

I have been using staffpad to learn composition for the last couple of months, and it's been great. My only issue with the staffpad is that it usually takes me multiple attempts to draw in flats, sharps, naturals, and ties/slurs. And using it in conjunction with learning MITA, I am always drawing in accidentals! I can't seem to get it to go smoothly. I do have essential tremors in my hands, but it is not that bad.

I was considering trying out Sibelius ultimate more. I used it for a bit during the free one month trial, and it worked pretty well. I didn't get a chance to get a numeric keypad to try with the software. I was wondering how folks feel on this forum, and if there is a consensus that Sibelius may offer a faster workflow utilizing a keyboard and numeric keypad. I know the sounds aren't as great as staffpad with the note performer but that is okay as my main priority now is to get ideas out quicker. And I guess there is always the option to export from Sibelius to staffpad if I want to use the sounds there for playback.

Sibelius ultimate currently has the 20% off annual subscription $159; I don't know if or how often Sibelius goes on sale. Do you guys think that is a good idea to try?




Thanks,
Ricky


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## rmak (Jun 3, 2021)

I was also curious. I think I saw that you can also use your iPad with Sibelius on the MacBook. Is that true? you can use iPad Pro like a numeric keypad?


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## thesteelydane (Jun 3, 2021)

I'd recommend Dorico over Sibelius any day, but I don't think they have sale on right now. It was developed from the ground up by the team that was laid off when Avid bought Sibelius, so it's everything Sibelius should be, but isn't.


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## rmak (Jun 3, 2021)

I would pick Dorico, but it is significantly more expensive.


thesteelydane said:


> I'd recommend Dorico over Sibelius any day, but I don't think they have sale on right now. It was developed from the ground up by the team that was laid off when Avid bought Sibelius, so it's everything Sibelius should be, but isn't.


TY for suggestion. Im checking out some YouTube video on Dorico. Looks like Dorico is available through purchase; do you know when it goes on sale?


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## sinkd (Jun 3, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> I'd recommend Dorico over Sibelius any day...


Dorico does have a cross grade price. If the OP has a license of a competing product.


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## brek (Jun 3, 2021)

Sorry to continue avoiding your original question, but based on your needs you may find Dorico Elements ($100) to be more than sufficient. You could even start with Dorico SE ($0).

Unlike Cubase, I'm not aware of a set schedule for sales but they certainly do them. 

To your original question... The number pad makes a huge difference for me with Sibelius.


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## youngpokie (Jun 3, 2021)

brek said:


> Sorry to continue avoiding your original question, but based on your needs you may find Dorico Elements ($100) to be more than sufficient. You could even start with Dorico SE ($0).


This, and - a month long free trial of Dorico. 

Dorico 4 should be coming out soon too...


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jun 3, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> I'd recommend Dorico over Sibelius any day, but I don't think they have sale on right now. It was developed from the ground up by the team that was laid off when Avid bought Sibelius, so it's everything Sibelius should be, but isn't.


Having tried both, I personally found Sibelius to be far superior _for my needs._

What really made the difference for my decision is that there are well over 100, maybe a few hundred 
plug-ins for Sibelius made by 3rd parties. Downloading as many as you can is essential.

What I found was many features of what "Sibelius should be" have plug-ins solving this problem and a large number of old aggravations of Sibelius have been duplicated by the same team.

Once you begin using a more complex approach to notation (ie graphics, extended techniques etc.) then I found myself in the "basement" of Dorico. I could no longer see the music, and have to scroll thru menu after menu. Simply put, Sibelius is still much faster for me. 

Additionally for archive reasons I would never leave Sibelius. I could not imagine having to convert files over. What a waste of life.


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## rmak (Jun 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> This, and - a month long free trial of Dorico.
> 
> Dorico 4 should be coming out soon too...


Thanks I ll probably try out the trial version of it. From what I read, you don’t need numeric keypad for Dorico which is nice.

If I can run Sibelius in 2016 MacBook Pro, I imagine dorico should probably be fine?


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## gzapper (Jun 3, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> Having tried both, I personally found Sibelius to be far superior _for my needs._
> 
> What really made the difference for my decision is that there are well over 100, maybe a few hundred
> plug-ins for Sibelius made by 3rd parties. Downloading as many as you can is essential.
> ...



I can see that for graphic scores, but for day to day work, Dorico kicks but. Though for me the biggest selling point is that Dorico is new, built as a clean build by the Sibelius guys and stands to keep getting much better. While Sibelius is a bit of a dead end now. 

Just checked out the tuning video, for instance, and the way they deal with 'tonalities', tunings, graphic choices for sharps/flats and how it plays back is very sophisticated. And for more standard writing its just faster and smarter. That's for my needs, and I'm not on it every day.


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## rmak (Jun 4, 2021)

Does anyone know if staffpad and dorico work well with one another? Can you export and import to and from the other? Thanks


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## gh0stwrit3r (Jun 4, 2021)

rmak said:


> Does anyone know if staffpad and dorico work well with one another? Can you export and import to and from the other? Thanks


Definitely! Works like a charm.


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## mscp (Jun 4, 2021)

rmak said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been using staffpad to learn composition for the last couple of months, and it's been great. My only issue with the staffpad is that it usually takes me multiple attempts to draw in flats, sharps, naturals, and ties/slurs. And using it in conjunction with learning MITA, I am always drawing in accidentals! I can't seem to get it to go smoothly. I do have essential tremors in my hands, but it is not that bad.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how valuable my input is, but due to the depreciated nature of software, if you're going to use the same version for years on in, then perpetual could be the thriftiest but best choice one could make. If you're planning to constantly upgrade it though, consider subscription.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jun 5, 2021)

gzapper said:


> I can see that for graphic scores, but for day to day work, Dorico kicks but. Though for me the biggest selling point is that Dorico is new, built as a clean build by the Sibelius guys and stands to keep getting much better. While Sibelius is a bit of a dead end now.
> 
> Just checked out the tuning video, for instance, and the way they deal with 'tonalities', tunings, graphic choices for sharps/flats and how it plays back is very sophisticated. And for more standard writing its just faster and smarter. That's for my needs, and I'm not on it every day.



I am glad Dorico is working so well for you.

I just wish you would have emphasized more the subjectiveness in which you declare Dorico much Faster/Smarter.

First I would argue the biggest factor is the person using the software. How well do they know it, how long have they used it, and most importantly; how well do they know the conventions of notation.

Finale and Sibelius have long been able to produce professional/publishing standard materials.
If the work is done right, no orchestra player would care (other than personal curiosity) if the parts were done on which program. 

Dorico essentially has two main selling points that it is trying to win the market with.

1. Ease of use: This is the "clean build" you mentioned. It's also from their experience of developing Sibelius. (*It should be noted that the Dorico team did not write Sibelius. They took over from the founders) To this end: Dorico produces the fastest, most professional-looking score with the least amount of user input I have ever seen. Within my first 15 minutes, I had two staves perfectly articulated and engraved. It has its strengths to be sure.

2. The "promise" for the holy grail of combining the best of a DAW and notation program.



The reason I am not a convert is

1. Ease of use: Yes, Sibelius is an old ship, but it has so many 3rd party plugins that really work well to fix most of my complaints with Sibelius. Plus I have 20 years of experience with it, customized keyboard shortcuts, memorized all the important keyboard shortcuts. Noteperformer is fine for my playback needs, and for the past few years, Sibelius is a very stable program. It might crash on occasion, but it's never slowed down a project. 

Basically, I am not in the market for a new gun. Old betsy works well over here.

Dorico is a pain to authorize. Dorico had many glaring holes when I researched it at both versions 3 and 3.5

I also felt it was surprising last century in its approach and thinking. It's 100% desktop/laptop oriented, I just did not find it innovative in the worthwhile sense. I already have templates to make all the settings as I want them in Sibelius. 

Dorico creates a wonderful homogenized-looking score. 
A great deal of the behind curtain heavy lifting I found frustrating.
I don't like having to turn off "permissions" to do something. 

The things that are woeful in Sibelius are basically the same in Dorico. 
Try doing a complex Guitar TAB. 

The more I dug, the more bugs I found.
Staves aren't really connected like the manual promises, the stupid window at the bottom of the screen always re-setting to the left etc. The less inspired I was to pursue it.


Maybe in a future version, I'll try the program again and see if it is worth picking up.


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## gzapper (Jun 5, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> I am glad Dorico is working so well for you.
> 
> I just wish you would have emphasized more the subjectiveness in which you declare Dorico much Faster/Smarter.
> 
> ...


Sure, my post is just as subjective as yours. I thought that's always assumed.

For you, with 20 years of living with the quirks of Sibelius and learning those quirks I can totally see relearning new bugs/issues/workarounds in Dorico to be frustrating. And I fully expect there are some graphic type scores that its easier to do in either of Finale or Sibelius, but you need to have a of experience to get there to be able to do those complex things at all in Sibelius.

I'll clarify my own level of experience. I'm composer/sound designer but mostly work in theatre, so do charts once or twice a month. Its something I do, but its not my primary gig. I'll write string parts for a session, lead sheets for actors or charts for a small band but I'm not on it all the time. So for me the transition between, what was it Sib 6 and 7, where the toolbar was implemented totally messed me up. After that I ended up googling everything I had to rather than try to find it the incredibly poorly laid out toolbar. It did what I needed but every time I used it I'd have to do something slightly differently and struggle to find it. I ran Finale a couple of decades ago then actually switched to Sibelius 'cuz it was more straight ahead. 

I've had Dorico a couple of years now and it keeps getting way better. There are things I google but also things that are just laid out so clearly and consistently that it sticks. The power of different 'flows' and having different pieces within a project, different layouts that are easy to setup, better playback options for my needs as an occasional user make it easy to pick up and get something done.
I just finished a full length chamber opera and it would have been a pain in the butt in Sibelius. About to write some charts with some maqaams and being able to create key signatures with half flats and then specify the tunings of those notes in playback is great. But I also did a section in 'free time' and struggled to get it to look nice at first. Some graphic stuff is fussier for sure. 

Keep with the program you've been on for 20 years if its working for you. I still here its more Sibelius for film parts, so its useful to have that Sib for that if that's your gig as well. 

And for my usage and needs? Dorico rocks Sibelius.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jun 6, 2021)

gzapper said:


> Keep with the program you've been on for 20 years if its working for you. I still here its more Sibelius for film parts, so its useful to have that Sib for that if that's your gig as well.
> 
> And for my usage and needs? Dorico rocks Sibelius.



Of course. Let's consider that all settled. I am happy it makes your life easier.

What I have noticed, and I think this is a testament to the Dorico team, it's users have a bit of an 
"evangelical" vibe. 

For example, someone asks "Should I purchase a subscription or perpetual license for Sibelius"
Answer: Dorico is so much better. 

This seems to happen all the time when someone asks a question about Sibelius. 

I bring this up as we both agree it is subjective to a user's needs and level of experience.



gzapper said:


> So for me the transition between, what was it Sib 6 and 7, where the toolbar was implemented totally messed me up.


Yes, but that was done by the Dorico team. The team that messed you up; you now went on their ship. Enjoy it, and hope version 5 is not another repeat of Sib. 6 to 7

The other thing I hated about the old Sib team is once they reached a certain level with Sibelius they clearly decided to alter the program to target the elementary and high school market. Pro users were left mostly alone. 

I would not be surprised if this doesn't happen to Dorico. Again, the team has a track record of doing so already.


______________________________________________________________________________

I gave myself the challenge of notating a very famous guitar solo that was published over 30 years ago with Dorico.

I did this task myself. It can be done, but it took me many, many "hacks".
This was when version 3.5 was first released. 

If there is any Dorico user up to the challenge, I would love to know if anyone would accept the challenge to notate the first page I am attaching here. 

If it takes @ 2 hours then well done. 

If it takes you 90 minutes: Bravo! This is about what it would take me with my current workflow.

If you can do it in under 90 minutes (both tab and notation) then let's talk and I would be keen to revisit Dorico.

If you quickly find that the newest and latest is woefully inept at doing something that was notated 30 years ago: Perhaps we'll start a club. I found Dorico so slow. Like using a butter knife to carve rocks. 






I look forward to seeing if anyone is able to complete the task.


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## gzapper (Jun 6, 2021)

> Of course. Let's consider that all settled. I am happy it makes your life easier.
> 
> What I have noticed, and I think this is a testament to the Dorico team, it's users have a bit of an
> "evangelical" vibe.
> ...


I have a non subscription license of Sibelius. Its still there so I can keep it on an older mac and have access to older scores. No subscription fees and it'll work. I hate subscription fees.

I have a friend who got the Sib edu subscription and now he's out of school doesn't qualify. So he's not working much, pandemic, so will lose the ability to work on his charts because he can't afford the subscription. My old copy runs fine even when I'm broke.



> ______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> I gave myself the challenge of notating a very famous guitar solo that was published over 30 years ago with Dorico.
> 
> ...


Beautiful chart. It does show a present weakness in Dorico for sure, whammy bar notation.
But...


> Dorico does not yet have any dedicated support for vibrato arm/whammy bar notations, but it’s something we are working on at the moment.


If I get some time in next few days I might take you up on your challenge, though I know the wammy bar will slow me down. Otherwise the rest of it is pretty straight ahead. Tab is not too bad now as is, had to do a uke chart for an actor in a tv show the other day and it was the first time I'd used it. 

Again, the point is you have very specific needs so stating that Dorico fails because it doesn't yet meet your very specific needs without addressing its general features isn't totally honest. Dorico gets much better in every update while Sibelius' last major change was that tool bar which I'm sure you loved like the rest of us. Otherwise it hasn't seen any useful updates in close to a decade now, has it?

At this point I'd go staffpad or Dorico first for general needs. If you're a hollywood arranger, you'll need Sibelius but otherwise I'd be cautious.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jun 6, 2021)

gzapper said:


> If I get some time in next few days I might take you up on your challenge, though I know the wammy bar will slow me down.


That would be great. Perhaps (if you have the time; no pressure) if you do complete the chart you could start another thread. I would be very interested to read about the process you went thru and how you found it. I am sure others would too. 


gzapper said:


> Beautiful chart. It does show a present weakness in Dorico for sure, whammy bar notation.
> But... Dorico does not yet have any dedicated support for vibrato arm/whammy bar notations, but it’s something we are working on at the moment.



That is simply false. Do yourself a favor and be sure and update to 3.5 before trying the chart I posted.

Here is a link to 3.5 https://new.steinberg.net/dorico/new-features/

It states:

Dorico Pro 3.5 introduces further new features for composers and arrangers writing for guitar: support for tapping, hammer-on and pull-off, a*nd a variety of techniques for the vibrato arm, or whammy bar,* make it easy to notate even elaborate solos for electric guitar

I added in *bold* obviously.



gzapper said:


> Again, the point is you have very specific needs so stating that Dorico fails because it doesn't yet meet your very specific needs without addressing its general features isn't totally honest. Dorico gets much better in every update while Sibelius' last major change was that tool bar which I'm sure you loved like the rest of us. Otherwise it hasn't seen any useful updates in close to a decade now, has it?


I take issue with the part of your comment _"because it doesn't yet meet your very specific needs without addressing its general features isn't totally honest."_

This makes it look like I have some sort of hidden agenda. I do not. We all win if technology gets better and makes our process smoother and more enjoyable.

First "_because it doesn't yet meet your very specific needs" _

Why would I judge it any other way? Do you buy expensive software that does not address any need for you or help you in any way?

_without addressing its general features_

First, I did praise it:



Dr. Shagwell said:


> To this end: Dorico produces the fastest, most professional-looking score with the least amount of user input I have ever seen. Within my first 15 minutes, I had two staves perfectly articulated and engraved. It has its strengths to be sure.



Second I have no obligation to comment on its "stacks" or "Modes" or other features. Nothing dishonest about that. Why would I have to comment on its general features? We have already stated that we are each just giving our opinion subjectively. I am not writing an official review, and if this applies to me with Dorico then it would apply to you with Sibelius too. Would it not?



gzapper said:


> Dorico gets much better in every update while Sibelius' last major change was that tool bar which I'm sure you loved like the rest of us


Third, I made sure to mention that I use 3rd party plugins and other software for overcoming Sibelius's shortcomings. I mentioned that a few times.


Where it appears we part ways is after the toolbar change. No, I hated the Sibelius toolbar change. Still do. It simply did not make my use of the software any better. I already knew the key commands so it did not really change the following for me. However, in no way did it improve.

What I find interesting is you followed the team that made the toolbar you hate so much. The same DORICO team is the same ones that made the toolbar.

I also know Sibelius is severely lacking in guitar notation. These are not some obscure songs either.
My point is after years of being sorely let down by that team with Sibelius, why would I be confident in them going forward under the new name "Dorico". It's the same team as the toolbar



gzapper said:


> Otherwise it hasn't seen any useful updates in close to a decade now, has it?


Oh, actually version 8 is well worth the upgrade. It has some really useful features. Sib.7 was trash. 8 to its latest upgrade was very good IMO.

I predict ( I do not hope for this, just my prediction) if you try the challenge of notating that Van Halen tab 100% accurately at some point you will say to yourself "This is way too damn hard".

Now...IT CAN BE DONE. I've done it in Dorico myself. I hated the process and it was "Way too damn hard" So I would love to learn tips from you if you find it easy.



gzapper said:


> If you're a hollywood arranger, you'll need Sibelius


Well....that's the field I am in.


Wishing you all the very best


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## gzapper (Jun 6, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> That would be great. Perhaps (if you have the time; no pressure) if you do complete the chart you could start another thread. I would be very interested to read about the process you went thru and how you found it. I am sure others would too.
> 
> 
> That is simply false. Do yourself a favor and be sure and update to 3.5 before trying the chart I posted.
> ...


Ok, my bad. I'm on 3.5 and am a guitar player but never used or looked at the wammy bar notation. I had thought it was still coming not there already. Its pretty crappy and definitely not as pretty or clear as what you did in Sibelius. Lines are easy but curves not so much. 

But that's the only part of that chart that's tricky. I'd have to create a technique for artificial harmonics, but no big deal and if I did wammy bar charts it would be something I'd have already. The tab and spacing are otherwise easy. Likely if I spent some time I could come up with a 'technique' tha that does the nice wammy bar curves as well. Its not in the program, but you can still build those things.

Hey, but I'm still on you for 2 things, 1) trying to flame the brothers for the toolbar as if that was emblematic of the design choices they made for Dorico and 2) bragging about Sib 8 when it was released in 2016. That's a bit of a self own.

I know Sib is the choice still for the gigs you do, and I get it. But do you really think its going to be getting improvements as quickly and massively as Dorico has? I'd expect that in the next couple of years you're going to see more people moving over


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## BlackDorito (Jun 6, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> That would be great. Perhaps (if you have the time; no pressure) if you do complete the chart you could start another thread. I would be very interested to read about the process you went thru and how you found it. I am sure others would too.
> 
> 
> That is simply false. Do yourself a favor and be sure and update to 3.5 before trying the chart I posted.
> ...


I'm of the same mind as Dr. Shag on this issue. I will state that, even though Sib 8 is 'Old Betsy' for me, I fully expect to convert over to Dorico in future versions because of their playback support, and I wish them the best as they bring out each new version. However my attempts to make progress with Dorico 2 & 3 just encountered too many problems (.. that I've documented in previous threads). Sibelius's problems for me fall into two categories - the UI overhaul and it's playback support. The UI issues were nicely covered in a YouTube:



My main issue is playback support, because I use Sibelius as a DAW. Since Dorico is built with playback support in mind (and has more DAW-like features), I know I will be using it in the future. 

If you are starting from scratch - and don't have to retool your brain - certainly start with Dorico. I realize you are thinking "You cheeseballs need to remember that I'm simply asking about subscription." Well, I personally decided against subscription in all software .. though that is the direction that many SW companies are going these days. I've decided for myself that the impetus to use-the-hell-out-of-it because I'm paying each month is very bothersome, because the time of acquisition may be different from the time of use, and furthermore, utilization may be sparse. I'm willing to forgo the extra features and the inclusive updates that subscriptions typically give. For me, software is a product purchase, not a 'utility'. Cheers.


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## stigc56 (Jun 6, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> This, and - a month long free trial of Dorico.
> 
> Dorico 4 should be coming out soon too...


Soon? No I think Daniel officcially admitted that version 4 is not imminent. September maybe.


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## Markrs (Jun 7, 2021)

This video might of interest as Ryan is a Sibelius user giving Dorico a go:


Personally as I am just starting to use notation, I have gone with Notion on iPad and desktop. I am also trying out Musescore as well. As I'm not doing engraving I think these will suit my purposes.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jun 7, 2021)

gzapper said:


> Ok, my bad. I'm on 3.5 and am a guitar player but never used or looked at the wammy bar notation. I had thought it was still coming not there already. Its pretty crappy and definitely not as pretty or clear as what you did in Sibelius. Lines are easy but curves not so much.
> 
> But that's the only part of that chart that's tricky. I'd have to create a technique for artificial harmonics, but no big deal and if I did wammy bar charts it would be something I'd have already. The tab and spacing are otherwise easy. Likely if I spent some time I could come up with a 'technique' tha that does the nice wammy bar curves as well. Its not in the program, but you can still build those things.
> 
> ...


Respectfully some of these comments are getting a bit silly.

1. I am not "flaming" anyone. My comment alluded to your citing the Sibelius redesign. You brought it up. What I said is 100% true and verifiable. Daniel led the toolbar design in Sibelius and his team now makes Dorico. That's just a statement of fact. 

2. Bragging? I don't work for Sibelius, I had nothing to do with it. How in the world could I be "bragging"? 

Again, I was simply replying to your comment:



gzapper said:


> Otherwise it hasn't seen any useful updates in close to a decade now, has it?


I took this to be a question for me to respond to.



Dr. Shagwell said:


> Oh, actually version 8 is well worth the upgrade. It has some really useful features. Sib.7 was trash. 8 to its latest upgrade was very good IMO.


Above is what I wrote. Bragging?



gzapper said:


> But do you really think its going to be getting improvements as quickly and massively as Dorico has?


What you call improvements are often, for me, Dorico catching up. I would happily jump on board Dorico once I see any reason to do so. I really, really wanted to like Dorico. 

I never had the Avid angst, so I am not ideologically on one side or the other. 

Here is the thing: (for the final time)

I can already make publishing standard charts. No musician cares what software you use. 
Finale can make wonderful scores, Sibelius can, and Dorico can provide you stay within its current limitations. 

*( There are others that can too, I am just talking about the BIG3. SCORE still has it's advocates)

I really want to new generation notation program but Dorico and I got off poorly and I'll have to wait until it looks clearly superior, if they can ever achieve this.

Even reading your own reply is sort of a deal-breaker for me. Here is what you said about trying that chart



gzapper said:


> Its pretty crappy





gzapper said:


> I'd have to create a technique for artificial harmonics, but no big deal and if I did wammy bar charts it would be something I'd have already. The tab and spacing are otherwise easy. Likely if I spent some time I could come up with a 'technique' tha that does the nice wammy bar curves as well. Its not in the program, but you can still build those things.


Exactly. That is what happened with Sibelius too. I had to create a bunch of "hacks" and now to switch to Dorico would mean recreating new "hacks". 

Where is the improvement. You even said it does not look like Dorico can get as clean and polished look as the example I posted. For $549 I was kinda hoping it would. 



gzapper said:


> Lines are easy but curves not so much.



Going forward that is always going to be the case. It's no longer a "clean Code". 

*What they could have, and should have done is jump on their near brilliant concept of "modes" and 
gone after a bit of 'StaffPad"

There are a lot of us who still like the feel of a pencil or stylus. Since layout mode locks down the notes, they should have made Dorico tablet-friendly by entering articulations via stylus.

What notation programs do quickly, takes a long time with pencil (ie. copy and paste)

What pencils do very quickly, notation programs take a long time. (Articulations)


Those string bends are also going to be a hard time. It would have been great if I could work on a chart, lock it to layout mode, and export to my I-pad. I could then get on a subway and add the articulations via stylus. 

Something like that would really grab my attention. It would solve a real problem for me. Dorico is surprisingly 100% desktop right now. 

If you could input bends and whammy bars and articulations via stylus it could be a very straightforward job, fun to use, and be done so much faster than the current model.

But they didn't. 

Now they lost their "clean code" advantage to ever go in that direction.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jun 7, 2021)

BlackDorito said:


> I will state that, even though Sib 8 is 'Old Betsy' for me, I fully expect to convert over to Dorico in future versions because of their playback support, and I wish them the best as they bring out each new version


I hear you. I think Dorico is headed for mistress status for me, like Finale. 

I'll have them on the computer, but not my main tool. 

Dorico has a similar video too:


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## Al Maurice (Jun 7, 2021)

@rmak, I can't speak in terms of Sibelius, as I only use Dorico at present. You can easily enter your score using both the number pad and the keyboard to enter notes. There are two modes of entry: i). notes before duration, and ii). the other way.

Once you want to start to embroider your score, then you'll need to learn the keyboard shortcuts and also the shortcuts for using what Dorico refers to as popovers, as much of the functionality is available there if you don't want to navigate with the mouse. There are plenty of videos on the web to help, I find the documentation quite sparse and difficult to navigate.

As has been mentioned both Dorico and Sibelius have lite versions which you can try first. Nobody can reliably tell you what will work best for you, as your needs probably vary.

Moreover Dorico will work with Notepeformer too and like Cubase it uses expression maps, which will allow you to build on the functionality hidden in your VIs; although those in Staffpad are uniquely designed to work with it alone. Otherwise to start with, you can use Halion Symphonic Orchestra that is shipped with the product, which although limited works well with expression maps to enable much of the playback functionality needed to listen to your scores.

If you don't need to create parts or any engraving functionality, then Elements is likely to cover most of your needs; you can check out a comparison of each version here: https://new.steinberg.net/dorico/co...m4OXLWaz8B8OGPz6lgsqDgDDXRD0jqrcaAtDYEALw_wcB


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## rmak (Jun 7, 2021)

Markrs said:


> This video might of interest as Ryan is a Sibelius user giving Dorico a go:
> 
> 
> Personally as I am just starting to use notation, I have gone with Notion on iPad and desktop. I am also trying out Musescore as well. As I'm not doing engraving I think these will suit my purposes.



There's too many options haha. im just going to download Dorico trial and give it a go. I like staffpad; it's nice and simple. But I do spend a lot of time redrawing certain things into the notation because it doesn't recognize my writing. The other issue is I sometimes play ideas on the keyboard and then re enter them into the notation, so that is inefficient. With Sibelius or Dorico, you can play notes directly into the software. Arguably, I should just be using a DAW if Im used to playing things in, but Im still learning concepts on MITA. Most of their concepts are taught on notation, and it is easier to apply them in notation.

How do you like Musescore? Is that worth a look?


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## PhilipJohnston (Jun 7, 2021)

Long time Sibelius user here (since version 2!), so I know it inside and out, but have switched to Dorico, and won't be going back.

That said, I'm not a blind Dorico fanboy. Its workflow is inspired, forehead-smackingly efficient in hindsight, but frequently unintuitive when you're first confronted with it, and Tantacrul was spot on his criticisms of some of their needlessly confusing interface decisions. (His videos on music notation software should be compulsory viewing for any developer of any app...the fact that he's now at Musescore has placed their app firmly on my radar).

Eagerly awaiting Dorico 4. Can only imagine what might be possible when it's fully integrated into Cubase. (Surely that's coming at some point?)


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## rmak (Jun 7, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> I hear you. I think Dorico is headed for mistress status for me, like Finale.
> 
> I'll have them on the computer, but not my main tool.
> 
> Dorico has a similar video too:



haha im trying to download trial version of software right now, and the video is right. The process is very confusing. Im trying to figure out how to do the soft e licenser for Dorico Pro trial. Maybe there is only a soft e licenser for the actual product? I don't have the usb e licenser.

If I try pro trial and want to purchase elements afterwards, I hope that won't be too complicated of a process. I also read cross grade options were available for the product.


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## Markrs (Jun 7, 2021)

rmak said:


> There's too many options haha. im just going to download Dorico trial and give it a go. I like staffpad; it's nice and simple. But I do spend a lot of time redrawing certain things into the notation because it doesn't recognize my writing. The other issue is I sometimes play ideas on the keyboard and then re enter them into the notation, so that is inefficient. With Sibelius or Dorico, you can play notes directly into the software. Arguably, I should just be using a DAW if Im used to playing things in, but Im still learning concepts on MITA. Most of their concepts are taught on notation, and it is easier to apply them in notation.
> 
> How do you like Musescore? Is that worth a look?


Musescore is great for most stuff, I only got Presonus Notion for PC because I use it on iPad and I got it 2nd hand for only $30. It also integrates with Studio One Artist (which I picked up cheap too, to try out), though I don't know how good that integration is yet.

I have been tempted by Dorico as I have Cubase, but I don't need engraving and the price is still pretty steep, for my basic use.


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## gzapper (Jun 8, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> Respectfully some of these comments are getting a bit silly.
> 
> Going forward that is always going to be the case. It's no longer a "clean Code".
> 
> ...


It is getting a bit silly.

I get that you can make a living doing what you are doing on Sibelius and can't right now on Dorico. I agree that there are some design issues that aren't great on Dorico but what's good about it is so much better from my end. Writing with a VEP setup, mappings for libraries, multiple pieces/sections in one file through flows, way better tuning options for maqams and temperaments. All those things make it way more pleasurable to use as a composer. Maybe its better to specify usage, composer vs copyist. 

I think angst about Sibelius and Avid are justified, Sibelius was abandoned once already and really, one serious update in the last 5 years doesn't make it sound like its a priority. It still works, and like you say, you've bought or found a bunch of third party plugs to implement workarounds to get it to do what you want it to do. I'm sure you've invested years learning those. So its a bit like the video of the guy trying out Dorico for the first time and thinking its slow because the key commands weren't the same as Sibelius. I'd rather not have to find 3rd party solutions to software that's not getting updated. Definitely you need to learn Dorico a bit, but once you do its more consistent. 'Shift' instead of 'command' but then its just that. Shift b, shift m, shift x. Different but fast when you learn them.

Stick with Sibelius if you're invested in it or working on a team as a copyist on scores for sessions. But if you're just getting into it Dorico is a smarter investment for the future, IMO. And I'd only go back to Sibelius if I have to. Or you could try Musescore. I've been through 4 DAW and 2 notation software changes and likely to switch DAW again in the next couple of years.


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## rmak (Jun 8, 2021)

I just successfully installed trial pro and am going to try to follow this tutorial video to start!  Thanks everyone for your input.


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