# Lets make Steinberg notice! Make Cubase better!



## IoannisGutevas (Mar 14, 2016)

Hello guys,

I posted this on steinberg forums : https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=228&t=94283 .

Imo its one of the most desired features and should be fixed asap. Will make everyone's workflow a breeze and so much easier to work and make large templates without getting lost in the mix console trying to find the output.

Anyway, if you like what im asking (i've been screaming for this feature for years), go at the link and reply to my post with a +1 or whatever you feel like writting! 

Lets make steinberg notice and this simple thing to be implemented in the next update/version of cubase!


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## Guillermo Navarrete (Mar 14, 2016)

Hello, 

You can do this by using Instrument tracks instead of MIDI tracks. 

Best regards,
GN


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 14, 2016)

Guillermo Navarrete said:


> You can do this by using Instrument tracks instead of MIDI tracks.



Yes but that requires you for example to use 1 instance of Kontakt for example in 1 instrument track using 1 instrument per Kontakt which is a waste of resources, loading time , rendering time and cpu.

Im talking about having a Kontakt instance loaded with 16 instruments with 16 midi tracks routed in 16 different audio outputs and when selecting a MIDI track on the project window the corresponding output to be selected in the MixConsole and not the MIDI track itself.

I hope this cleared my point more Guillermo.


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## ricoderks (Mar 14, 2016)

That feature would be VERY handy indeed... But actually it does sync already! The problem is that Cubase doesn't see you want to sync a midi track to a instrument output. It will always sync to the midi channel corresponding in the mixer. Maybe there is a way to manually link the midi track in the timeline to the instrument output in the mixer? That feature would be nice.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 14, 2016)

Just use instrument tracks and 1 instance of Kontakt per track. Much cleaner mixer in the end too and you don't need all those midi tracks besides and conflicting volumes etc. . If you build your template this way, and dis-able your tracks you can build a huge template of any size and when you enable your tracks they line up in the mixer as well as the instrument rack in order, no fuss no muss.

The problem right now is that expression maps and quick controls do not restore properly but once they squash that bug, who needs VEP and all the hassles it ensues?


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## jononotbono (Mar 14, 2016)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Yes but that requires you for example to use 1 instance of Kontakt for example in 1 instrument track using 1 instrument per Kontakt which is a waste of resources, loading time , rendering time and cpu.
> 
> Im talking about having a Kontakt instance loaded with 16 instruments with 16 midi tracks routed in 16 different audio outputs and when selecting a MIDI track on the project window the corresponding output to be selected in the MixConsole and not the MIDI track itself.
> 
> I hope this cleared my point more Guillermo.



This would be a dream. I was going nearly insane not so long ago because every time I click on Midi Tracks the relevant Audio Outputs do not select in the Mixconsole. Navigating is difficult with massive track counts. I am using the Channel Overview more and more when trying to find Instruments. I really wish Selecting Midi channels in Project Window would select the Audio Output in the Mixconsole (Soloing a Track is the only way I can figure out how to highlight a specific track but it's not Ideal)! Great feature request!


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## ricoderks (Mar 14, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> Just use instrument tracks and 1 instance of Kontakt per track. Much cleaner mixer in the end too and you don't need all those midi tracks besides and conflicting volumes etc. . If you build your template this way, and dis-able your tracks you can build a huge template of any size and when you enable your tracks they line up in the mixer as well as the instrument rack in order, no fuss no muss.
> 
> The problem right now is that expression maps and quick controls do not restore properly but once they squash that bug, who needs VEP and all the hassles it ensues?



That's a no go for me... I switch projects very often and don't want to load 80gb of ram each time I do... VEP is especially designed for this situation. Also, when cubase crashes I dont have to load all samples either! So from my point of view it would definitely become handy as a optional feature


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 14, 2016)

Seems like a good idea, but it might be tricky in practice. Its often nice to have the midi track in the mix console ad adjust CCs in Quick Controls etc. Perhaps there could be a way to optionally link the fader to an audio output somehow rather than control CC7, but you'd run into issues if you had more than one midi track sharing that output. Would need a lot of thought to get a smooth conflict-free system working.


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 14, 2016)

I suggested something similar a few months back because I use VEP5, but mine was because of plugins- I had to split my licenses onto different dongles so that all of my plugins/DAW licenses went onto my master, and all of my instruments went onto my slave. Now I have to use all of my plugins on my master, which requires going back and forth creating and finding the audio output for the specific MIDI track. Searching for the track kills my momentum/inspiration, and also the keyboard is disabled when the output is selected so I can't experiment with instrument as I'm tweaking it's plugin settings. It seems like such an obvious thing- the easiest fix, it seems to me, would be to create an instrument track which accepts MIDI.


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## DR BOOWHO (Mar 14, 2016)

I was using VEP but switched to individual instances using track disable. It has so much going for it and would be the perfect solution for larger templates. However if you try and use key commands using Eucon it is really unstable and constantly crashes. Losing midi routing is also a pain.
Building a really large template means its an absolute must that you are able to hide tracks and resize quickly. 
I am assuming its not just me and other people are having difficulties.


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## Neifion (Mar 14, 2016)

I'd like the ability to export video.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 14, 2016)

I have the channel settings window open all the time. There you can open up and view all the tracks of the signal chain from the midi track to the stereo out. You can go to the instruments output if needed and instantly go back to the midi track with one click. Maybe this can be a solution for some of you.
The only downside is the very unflexible gui of the channel settings window. I didn't find a way to adjust it to my needs as I want to until now. Would be great if steinberg would make the channel settings window more customize- and zoomable. Should not be that big of an effort.


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## passsacaglia (Mar 15, 2016)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Yes but that requires you for example to use 1 instance of Kontakt for example in 1 instrument track using 1 instrument per Kontakt which is a waste of resources, loading time , rendering time and cpu.
> 
> Im talking about having a Kontakt instance loaded with 16 instruments with 16 midi tracks routed in 16 different audio outputs and when selecting a MIDI track on the project window the corresponding output to be selected in the MixConsole and not the MIDI track itself.
> 
> I hope this cleared my point more Guillermo.



Oh hi there! Just found this thread. I'm running logic and I'm new to everything. 
Is there a sticky on this? I'm running Kontakt on 70% of my software sound tracks, don't know if that's midi tracks.
But yeah my Kontakt player is running on each instance, is there a better way to o this? Cause your explanation sounded much better - any logic user out there who can comment on this or if someone know how to set up a template best way with kontakt in logic? I haven't "grouped" the instrument sections either...
Maybe I'll just fix a new thread for this.


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## Guillermo Navarrete (Mar 15, 2016)

Hello,



IoannisGutevas said:


> Yes but that requires you for example to use 1 instance of Kontakt for example in 1 instrument track using 1 instrument per Kontakt which is a waste of resources, loading time , rendering time and cpu.
> 
> Im talking about having a Kontakt instance loaded with 16 instruments with 16 midi tracks routed in 16 different audio outputs and when selecting a MIDI track on the project window the corresponding output to be selected in the MixConsole and not the MIDI track itself.
> 
> I hope this cleared my point more Guillermo.



Yes, but now you can route a MIDI track to an Instrument Track. 
E.g. Load HALion Sonic as an Instrument track, then you can add additional MIDI tracks and rout the output of those MIDI tracks to HALion Sonic as it now appears on the Rack. 

Best regards,
GN


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 15, 2016)

Guillermo Navarrete said:


> Yes, but now you can route a MIDI track to an Instrument Track.
> E.g. Load HALion Sonic as an Instrument track, then you can add additional MIDI tracks and rout the output of those MIDI tracks to HALion Sonic as it now appears on the Rack.
> 
> Best regards,
> GN



Routing isnt the problem, you can route the outputs in Instrument tracks and Rack Instruments and they work just fine. Syncing with the MixConsole is the issue.

If you route for example the MIDI track 2 to have its output from Kontakt "Stereo output 2", and you set the output from the inspector of the MIDI track to the "Stereo output 2" then these things happen when you select the MIDI track:

In the Inspector of the MIDI track the Audio Fader shows the "Stereo output 2" correctly BUT in the MixConsole when you have the MIDI track selected it syncs with the MIDI track fader and NOT with the Audio Fader. 

This has a result when you build large templates or you have a lot of virtual instruments playing and you want to adjust the faders for mixing or quickly work with inserts , sends and well, all the goodies of the MixConsole are useless if you need to spend a lot of time just searching for the corresponding output. It requires you to search for the Audio Fader for too long and the workflow is destroyed.

Im sure there are workarounds like creating configurations or using the Edit Channel Settings to navigate to the output and back again ect.. but what bugs me is that in Cubase the output its already Synced! The Audio Fader is already synced with the MIDI track! In the inspector of the MIDI track it is displayed and works like a charm! But it DOESNT sync with the MixConsole!

Im sure it must be an easy fix for Steinberg and i have faith  It might seem a little thing but it makes TONS of difference in the workflow aspect.


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## andreªs (Mar 15, 2016)

I was quite frustrated to see that very behaviour when switching from ProTools to Cubase. With large templates it quickly becomes a mess. The instrument tracks in ProTools can handle the audio returns from VEPro *and* MIDI data in one track including all automation lanes. I *really* would like to see that in Cubase - much cleaner and straight forward IMO.


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 15, 2016)

andreªs said:


> ProTools can handle the audio returns from VEPro *and* MIDI data in one track


Don't tell me that, I'll just get jealous and upset...



andreªs said:


> I *really* would like to see that in Cubase - much cleaner and straight forward IMO.


Yes. I'd pay them $100 out of my own pocket just to fix this. It's such an inconvenience its unfathomable.



andreªs said:


> With large templates it quickly becomes a mess.


Yes. It's even a mess with small templates. It's just a mess. An inconvenient, unnecessary, fixable mess.


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## muziksculp (Mar 15, 2016)

How about if Cubase offered a *Global Instrument Rack (GIR)*, that is independent of any project, you can connect to it from any project you are working with, so you can even have multiple Global Instrument Racks for varying musical applications, i.e. Synth/Electronic Global Inst. Rack, Chamber Orchestral Global Rack, ...etc. once a Global Instrument Rack (GIR), or multiple GIRs are loaded, they act somewhat similar to a VE-Pro Server.

I think DP has a feature similar to this, but something along what I described (Global Instrument Rack) would be so cool to have in Cubase, maybe Cubase Pro 9 ?


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 15, 2016)

ricoderks said:


> That's a no go for me... I switch projects very often and don't want to load 80gb of ram each time I do... VEP is especially designed for this situation. Also, when cubase crashes I dont have to load all samples either! So from my point of view it would definitely become handy as a optional feature


OK but I have a 1000+ track template and everything's organized all built from disabled tracks and in the end I use some 25-50 tracks for each cue I do and the saving and loading times are minimal with this setup, maybe 5 seconds. Crashes, no such thing here, that's weird...


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## ricoderks (Mar 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> OK but I have a 1000+ track template and everything's organized all built from disabled tracks and in the end I use some 25-50 tracks for each cue I do and the saving and loading times are minimal with this setup, maybe 5 seconds. Crashes, no such thing here, that's weird...



Nice! What are your specs? How does that work with disabled tracks? Does cubase load the instruments in kontakt when turning the track on? I have to mention i'm running samples via my master PC and a slave. Thats the main reason i use Vienna  Cubase often crashes when I switch instruments in Engine2... And sometimes when I switch presets on B2.

Rico


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## andreªs (Mar 16, 2016)

As written in post #16 it would be the slickest way for us VEPro users to have *one* track including the MIDI data, the audio returns and the automation lanes. Just have look at the instrument track architecture in Pro Tools. It's clean, simple and tidy. Works also in all other multi-instruments. I haven't come across a better solution...

Unfortunately Pro Tools isn't evolving in the MIDI department.

-Andreas


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 16, 2016)

Disabled tracks are great, but a) there are still bugs with them (eg not recalling Quick Controls etc properly) and b) they're not always the right tool for the job imo. There is still a finite time to enable a track and have it ready to go - maybe only a few seconds, but enough to be tedious if you had to do it for every single track. I do think track disable / enable is transformative tech, but it shouldn't be an excuse to stop any other development which will help always-on instant solutions.


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## lokotus (Mar 16, 2016)

I can understand that

*1) to combine the audio returns from VEPro or any other multi-output instrument and MIDI data channel into one track*, some more serious "coding" would have to be implemented. A somewhat easier workaround for the time being would just be to

*2) let us select a midi track in the arrangement window, followed by an automatic selection of the corresponding audio returns channel in the mixer.* This should not be so hard to implement at all, because the Inspector in Cubase already "knows" which MIDI data channel and audio return channel belong together. Thus the mixer would only need to react to the chosen settings (combination) of the arrangement inspector.

Cheers, lokotus

PS: Steinberg invented Asio and Vst, so they will certainly be capable of also improving the current midi-audio workflow mess and have already started to make great progress with a lot of very nice mixer improvements. Just a matter of time and priority, for which we responsible for by posting, posting, posting


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 16, 2016)

lokotus said:


> *let us select a midi track in the arrangement window, followed by an automatic selection of the corresponding audio returns channel in the mixer.* This should not be so hard to implement at all, because the Inspector in Cubase already "knows" which MIDI data channel and audio return channel belong together


Do they? I set my VSTs to their corresponding audio output in VEP on my slave. It doesn't seem like it would automatically know which output I set it to. I'm sure it's possible to figure it out. I think Cubase and Vienna need to talk with each other and create a bridge. Or some third-party developer needs to create a connection program.


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 16, 2016)

andreªs said:


> instrument tracks in ProTools can handle the audio returns from VEPro *and* MIDI data in one track including all automation lanes


Wait, I think I'm getting a bit confused...I just tried setting up a project in Pro Tools to see how it works and I was still having the same trouble as in Cubase. I'd like to have the MIDI tracks have the MIDI, plugin and routing capabilities that any audio track would have. When I bring up a VEP instance into an AUX Track (or Instrument Track as you mentioned) in Pro Tools, the subsequent connecting MIDI tracks don't have options for plugins or routing. Am I missing something?


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## lokotus (Mar 16, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> Do they? I set my VSTs to their corresponding audio output in VEP on my slave. It doesn't seem like it would automatically know which output I set it to. I'm sure it's possible to figure it out. I think Cubase and Vienna need to talk with each other and create a bridge. Or some third-party developer needs to create a connection program.



That's not what I meant.It doesn automatically know. when clicking on a midi track you have to manually tell the inspector in the arrangement window which audio return channel to display and the inspector remembers this for each midi channel individually


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 16, 2016)

I put in a request of my own: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=228&t=94602

Here's what I said: 

Using resource-hungry templates is becoming increasingly necessary for composers. For that reason, many composers have begun using Vienna Ensemble Pro in combination with a Slave Computer. As of now, using plugins with the MIDI Track is time consuming and difficult, because putting a plugin directly on the MIDI Track will effect all of of the instruments on that VEP instance. In addition to that, plugins cannot be put directly onto the instrument in VEP because my dongles are divided, so that all of my FX plugins are on my Master Dongle for the purposes of mixing, and my VST licenses are on my Slave Dongle for the purposes of slaving.



What I am requesting is a MIDI track that functions as an Instrument Track, in that it has MIDI capability, as well as its own audio routing, separate from other tracks on the VEP instance.



Here is a step-by-step walkthrough of how workflow is disrupted because of the multiple-track option. I hope that you will be able to see why it’s so important that the MIDI Track has both MIDI capability as well as its own Audio Output.



Lets say you have a cello track routed in from VEP, using its own MIDI track for MIDI and an Audio Output for it’s routing. Let’s put distortion on the cello. To do that, we would have to (1) follow the signal chain to the Mix Console, (2) find the audio output (not an easy feat at all in the 700+ track template that I have), and (3) put a distortion plugin on the audio track. Now we want to gently raise the amount of distortion. We then (4) enable the write automation on the audio track, then (5) play the track and tweak the distortion in real time. It was close, but not perfect. Now we want to go in and make some subtle adjustments. We have to (6) go back to the project window and track down where that audio routing is located (also not easy), and (7) tweak it. But now I’m inspired, and I’m hearing how the distortion interacts with the cello, and I’d like to tweak the MIDI again. So I have to (8) track down my MIDI track and tweak it. That’s sounding great! But I’d like to tweak the distortion amount one more time (9) back to the audio track!



Another, smaller example: Lets say we’re using a synth plugin and we want to see how it sounds with a delay plugin. (1) find the audio output and (2) put on a delay plugin and (3) tweak it. If we play our MIDI keyboard, it makes no sound because the audio track is the selected track. So we have to (4) find the midi track and (5) play it. Sounds good, but we need to tweak the effect. (5) Back to the audio track!



If the MIDI had its own audio routing, we could skip half of those steps, and we wouldn’t even need to go to the mixing window because we could just use the Inspector in the Project Editor. Having grown up with Instrument Tracks having integrated routing, it’s frustrating and time consuming to have to add in these extra steps.



Eliminating these steps is extremely important, because both parts of the brain are being used- the creative and the technical, which wears us down more quickly. I take care at the beginning to set up my projects so that I get all of the technical stuff out of the way when I’m ready for the mixing phase.



I am not a programmer and know almost nothing about the underlying architecture of either programs, but I have come up with a couple of solutions: 



1) Coordinate with VSL so that changes in one program can communicate with changes in the other. This could result in the creation of a separate bridge program.



2) Use the architecture of the Instrument Track as a starting place, have whatever signal the MIDI is sent to return the audio into the track itself. 



3) Create a VEP-type program that would allow us to use the resources of a second computer.



Whatever the solution may be, I’m sure the Steinberg team can come up with some amazing results. Thanks so much!


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## andreªs (Mar 16, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> Wait, I think I'm getting a bit confused...I just tried setting up a project in Pro Tools to see how it works and I was still having the same trouble as in Cubase. I'd like to have the MIDI tracks have the MIDI, plugin and routing capabilities that any audio track would have. When I bring up a VEP instance into an AUX Track (or Instrument Track as you mentioned) in Pro Tools, the subsequent connecting MIDI tracks don't have options for plugins or routing. Am I missing something?



You have to use "Instrument Tracks", not MIDI tracks and AUX Inputs.


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## IFM (Mar 17, 2016)

Basically is sounds like what you guys are asking for is what you can do in LPX's instrument tracks where you can select an individual MIDI channel and create more tracks using the same instrument track and just change the channel. In LPX you are only limited to one main volume for that segment...no way to address VEP volumes unless you assign a CC to control VEP volume faders. You could also use multiple send from VEP and have those shown in the LPX mixer.

The advantage here is like in C8 you can add plugins, sends, etc. but you are effecting that whole group seeing as you are really still dealing with one instrument track that is just broken out to different midi channels.

I'm not bothered by the way C8 is doing it honestly.


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## samphony (Mar 17, 2016)

Why not copying the way studio one do


IFM said:


> Basically is sounds like what you guys are asking for is what you can do in LPX's instrument tracks where you can select an individual MIDI channel and create more tracks using the same instrument track and just change the channel. In LPX you are only limited to one main volume for that segment...no way to address VEP volumes unless you assign a CC to control VEP volume faders. You could also use multiple send from VEP and have those shown in the LPX mixer.
> 
> The advantage here is like in C8 you can add plugins, sends, etc. but you are effecting that whole group seeing as you are really still dealing with one instrument track that is just broken out to different midi channels.
> 
> I'm not bothered by the way C8 is doing it honestly.


true. In LPX you can work this way. I probably would use all three of the cubase mixers to navigate groups/stems, audio tracks etc if I would use cubase.


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 17, 2016)

IFM said:


> The advantage here is like in C8 you can add plugins, sends, etc. but you are effecting that whole group seeing as you are really still dealing with one instrument track that is just broken out to different midi channels


Maybe I missed it, but I don't see the advantage in that. You're not bothered by it? If you load up a Kontakt instance to its max, you'd have 128 instruments. I would think that you would want to EQ and compress the great majority of them in different ways.


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## IFM (Mar 17, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I don't see the advantage in that. You're not bothered by it? If you load up a Kontakt instance to its max, you'd have 128 instruments. I would think that you would want to EQ and compress the great majority of them in different ways.


Not really. I would never use it that way anyways. Instrument tracks are much more flexible for me. I just load different articulations on different channels and use Expression Maps to access them. This way you also get the advantage of ASIO Guard. 

On the instances I do have MIDI tracks pointing to Kontakt or Play VI's it is for percussion typically.


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 17, 2016)

IFM said:


> Not really. I would never use it that way anyways. Instrument tracks are much more flexible for me. I just load different articulations on different channels and use Expression Maps to access them. This way you also get the advantage of ASIO Guard.
> 
> On the instances I do have MIDI tracks pointing to Kontakt or Play VI's it is for percussion typically.


That makes sense. Yeah, my template is 700+ tracks, and my main computer is a Mac Mini, so it really can't handle the resources if I were to put them all on Instrument Tracks.


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## andreªs (Apr 8, 2016)

I was told at Musikmesse that they are working on a solution and will clean up the instrument track architecture. Maybe we are lucky and see changes in V9 or V9.5.


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## Neifion (Apr 8, 2016)

Please let us re-order the Instrument Rack. It's a pain when I have my MIDI tracks arranged a certain way in the Project window and I can't make the Instrument Rack reflect that.


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## Prockamanisc (Apr 8, 2016)

andreªs said:


> I was told at Musikmesse that they are working on a solution and will clean up the instrument track architecture


Awesome!!! I'm so glad to hear they're taking our suggestions to heart. I really hope they could help us out, it would make most composers' workflows 2-3x faster (based on my workflow).


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 8, 2016)

andreªs said:


> I was told at Musikmesse that they are working on a solution and will clean up the instrument track architecture. Maybe we are lucky and see changes in V9 or V9.5.



Interesting - what specifically was this referring to? The rack? The routing of multi channels?


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## EvilDragon (Apr 8, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> If you load up a Kontakt instance to its max, you'd have 128 instruments.



64. 64*128 if you use instrument banks (but then again I don't think anybody has that kind of RAM to do that). :D


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## andreªs (Apr 8, 2016)

Guy Rowland said:


> Interesting - what specifically was this referring to? The rack? The routing of multi channels?



From what I understand both - rack and multi channels.


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