# Reaching for "the next level"



## JohnG (Jun 25, 2019)

Not sure what for most people "the next level" actually means, but thought it an interesting topic.

*Then*

"Many years ago..." there was a sort-of path that led to preparation for the Next Level. You might start out copying or orchestrating, or boothing (supervising the score and relaying to the conductor/composer what the people in the booth wanted, or letting them know that maybe the brass was too loud, or other musical direction).

The result was spending many, many hours at sessions absorbing the behaviour of the players, the producer/director, the composer, the engineer. You'd hear the banter but if observant, you could catch the "real" conversation about negotiating an artistic goal (sometimes quite different from what the composer originally imagined) and then quickly implementing it. You'd see the negotiation taking place, the give and take, with all that entering your own behaviour through osmosis, for lack of a better expression.

*Skills and ...Other Skills*

Working like that teaches you a number of things, including:

1. How to behave / solve problems efficiently when there is a big budget, everyone is a bit wired / excited / on edge, and time is really money;
2. The nuance of communicating and negotiating in a sometimes-ambiguous hierarchy;
3. How to negotiate with engineers (and it's definitely a negotiation, not a dictatorship, if you know what's good for you); and
4. How to absorb a new direction from your boss (director / producer) and creatively apply it in real time, without getting steamed up or feeling sorry for yourself; dealing with a sometimes-unwelcome surprise artistically instead of just slamming something in there.

Of course, working with a live ensemble also teaches / helps you hone practical musical skills:

1. How to write clearly and idiomatically for players;
2. What players don't like (something you hear about pretty clearly -- verbally and non-verbally);
3. When you can feel the players are tired and it's time for a break; and
4. What they can actually execute -- how do real French Horns sound up high/ down low etc.

*Now*

Today, all that seems elusive.

I encounter composers or would-be composers who don't have live-playing experience. That I understand. What surprises me is that some seem barely interested in learning what you need to know to work with live players. Some proportion -- not sure how large -- seem to feel they don't even need to play an instrument.

I guess for me I don't see how you elevate your music to that next level without that knowledge. Like many here, I have had plenty of "in the box" jobs over time. Some were fun, some even paid well; but at the risk of overgeneralising about those projects, even those producers and directors who were grateful for the effort required for making decent music out of computers still perceived it as "computer music." They relegated me to the category of "computer music guy," by contrast with "real / big time composer."

Put simply, I perceive, right or wrong, that to make it onto a bigger platform, and having the tremendous satisfaction that music can bring, composers need the ability to incorporate players.

It certainly livens up the music (har-har -- "livens"). I just replaced a (very good) sampled ethnic flute with one played live and, despite its being only about 30 seconds out of a nearly 3 minute piece, it elevated the piece immeasurably.

*"The Knowledge"*

Every few weeks or months a thread pops up in which some people argue you don't need theory to be a good / successful composer. Maybe they point to Paul McCartney or Hans Zimmer, implicitly attributing to them a _tabula rasa,_ unblemished by academic stuffiness.

But those guys (and all the others) rapidly did learn how to work with players. How? Well, partly because they _were_ players. They played live, they undoubtedly had to learn chords, chord progressions, even inversions and different meters -- theory, in other words. Also, they are gifted. Are all of us equally gifted musically?

And while learning chord changes is helpful, my guess is that it's the "other stuff" that maybe is also decisive. Playing live is fun, you sometimes meet entertaining (if also sometimes tipsy) people. But you also learn: "What makes a crowd jump up and want to dance?" "Which songs make people cry?" "How do you cope with a pissed-off nightclub / venue owner?" "How do you get the drummer back on stage when you said something about his playing that made him mad and he stormed off?"

Working with live players is not solely (or mostly) about academic pomp, it's equally about keeping everyone focused and happy and enjoying it.

*So What?*

So I am nobody special, but I've had a lot of fun and had some orchestras along the way, conducted, arranged -- all that. For me, the path I've had has been elevated (artistically and financially) by working with live players.

For young / new composers, is working with live players irrelevant? Is it indispensable?

I don't see how you move up in music without live players, but of course we all think back on our own experiences and find our thoughts validated, so maybe some out there have a different view?


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

What he said.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 25, 2019)

The world is changing and live players are becoming far less critical then they were in the past. That being said, I do think everything comes around. I will never give up my interest in live-played music and everything there is to learn about it. I view it as an important part of human civilization that needs to be preserved.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> So I am nobody special, but I've had a lot of fun and had some orchestras along the way, conducted, arranged -- all that. For me, the path I've had has been elevated (artistically and financially) by working with live players.
> 
> For young / new composers, is working with live players irrelevant? Is it indispensable?
> 
> I don't see how you move up in music without live players, but of course we all think back on our own experiences and find our thoughts validated, so maybe some out there have a different view?



@JohnG you are one guy I always "look up to" on this forum, very knowledgable and talented. I totally understand what you have said. However, as a middle-aged composer, I guess I've become somewhat cynical with regards to my next level. I will always dream of becoming the next Hans Zimmer, but the realization is that it is merely a pipe dream now, and justifiably so. In my local music market, there just isn't any need (or facilities) for a soundtrack with live orchestra. There's a major film studio here in Calgary, but the post is all done in LA. My next level takes the form of continued formal piano lessons, honing my composition skills, and marketing myself more strategically so that I can continue to compose for whatever comes my way. Ultimately, I'd like to land a few more bigger-budget feature length films, and continue scoring for professional live theatre across Canada (which I've been doing forever). So in a nutshell, I don't think you NEED to delve into the world of using live players, because in many situations, it's pretty much pointless.


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## Loïc D (Jun 25, 2019)

My 2 cents : I totally agree with you @JohnG 

I’ve learned far more about music by playing in bands for years than by my classical education.
Classical training gave me the understanding of rules (why).
Bands gave me the feeling on what the music is.
There no better way to learn. And to booze.


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## JohnG (Jun 25, 2019)

LowweeK said:


> I’ve learned far more about music by playing in bands for years than by my classical education.
> Classical training gave me the understanding of rules (why).
> Bands gave me the feeling on what the music is.
> There no better way to learn. And to booze.



Yep. Spent time on small stages in small bars or fraternity houses, watching people get amped up on all that. I think that experience helps tremendously. Also, dealing with bass players.


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## JohnG (Jun 25, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I don't think you NEED to delve into the world of using live players, because in many situations, it's pretty much pointless.



I hear you @Wolfie2112 . But even when it _feels_ pointless, I still think it's great to have, say, a cello soloist, or a wind soloist, or a small choir. I have done scores with one guy playing violins and violas, supplementing with another guy playing solo winds.

I really enjoy hearing those pieces even years later, whereas those done solely with samples, quite a bit less so. They also wear better sonically; the limitations of the long-ago Roland SP700s don't become any less conspicuous with time.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 25, 2019)

If we’re talking about any type of live playing, I fully agree about it expanding your knowledge. I still drum professionally (including tours) and it is still fulfilling and inspirational. And yes, dealing with bass players and lead singers


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 25, 2019)

This is a personal goal of mine - to have some pieces performed by a larger orchestral ensemble.

I am not sure why anyone who wants to write symphonic / orchestral music would push back on this? What an amazing experience!


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 25, 2019)

So the “next level” for some is about becoming a better musician. For me, the “next level” is about making more money. I don’t care how I get there either. Learn new instruments, use ghostwriters, use AI to compose. As long as I get my money up, I’m good. 

I don’t mean to offend anyone,
I’m just new school. I took piano as a child for a year and got bored. So I never learned to play an instrument, I just “compose” using a DAW. I am already composing full songs at home, so there is no next level as far as becoming a better musician. If I want better sounds, I get more VSTs, hire some people to play for me, or find a way to program those sounds.

Neither way is right or wrong.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> So the “next level” for some is about becoming a better musician. For me, the “next level” is about making more money. I don’t care how I get there either. Learn new instruments, use ghostwriters, use AI to compose. As long as I get my money up, I’m good.


OK.


Desire Inspires said:


> I don’t mean to offend anyone,
> I’m just new school. I took piano as a child for a year and got bored. So I never learned to play an instrument, I just “compose” using a DAW. I am already composing full songs at home, so there is no next level as far as becoming a better musician. If I want better sounds, I get more VSTs, hire some people to play for me, or find a way to program those sounds.


So what happens if it turns out that in order to make more money you need to learn more of what you din't know? Perhaps the fact that you think you can't become a better musician may exactly be the think holding back your earnings? Are you prepared for that?


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> OK.
> 
> So what happens if it turns out that in order to make more money you need to learn more of what you din't know? Perhaps the fact that you think you can't become a better musician may exactly be the think holding back your earnings? Are you prepared for that?



I can work on getting better. I’m not opposed to that. But I think I would do better by focusing on what I know and work with other people who are great at what they do. 

Pop music is often done by small armies of people. I’d like to work in that capacity and build up a bigger catalog by working with teams of people instead of trying to do it on my own.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 25, 2019)

Great post. Even the music of someone like Cliff Martinez who uses 90% or more software synths has been informed by years of practicing, studying and playing with other musicians.


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## StevenMcDonald (Jun 25, 2019)

I'm definitely not against live recording and playing in any way. I was in wind ensemble all through middle and high school, and did some live orchestra composing and recording (to picture) in college. But the work involved in doing it all is so intense! If I had a project with the budget for it and the director/developer requested it, I would make it happen. Otherwise when I weigh the hassle of hiring orchestrators and engineers and players, scheduling things, taking trips and being away from my family against the staying in the box, I'll probably always choose in the box if I can pull it off in a way that pleases the client.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do it if I had the right project and funds set aside for hiring professionals, but that is very rare in production music. So if I wanted to record live, I'd likely have to handle all of it, from scheduling to funding, and there's no way I'd pay for all that out of pocket for production music on spec. Also deadlines can be insanely tight doing custom production music!

I think it's silly to reject the idea of working with players entirely. But for many in the younger generation of up and coming tech-savvy composers, most genres of music can be done well enough in the box that it's just not really worth it,from a business standpoint, to spend time and money on recording sessions. So, my answer for your question to young composers - it's not irrelevant, not at all! Just impractical in many cases.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 25, 2019)

StevenMcDonald said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do it if I had the right project and funds set aside for hiring professionals, but that is very rare in production music. So if I wanted to record live, I'd likely have to handle all of it, from scheduling to funding, and there's no way I'd pay for all that out of pocket for production music on spec. Also deadlines can be insanely tight doing custom production music!



Ditto!!


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2019)

Totally agree. Every single time I have worked with a real musician, the amount they add to the track has been mind blowing. So much so that I was compelled to share synch fees with them, especially vocalists. Breaking out of the virtual world is a necessity to keep your craft evolving and more importantly to keep yourself inspired. It's so easy to get wrapped up in the technology and completely forget that you're trying to emulate a performance, not just move faders around.


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Ditto!!





StevenMcDonald said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do it if I had the right project and funds set aside for hiring professionals, but that is very rare in production music. So if I wanted to record live, I'd likely have to handle all of it, from scheduling to funding, and there's no way I'd pay for all that out of pocket for production music on spec. Also deadlines can be insanely tight doing custom production music!



Have you tried asking the publisher to put the recording $ upfront, then recoup the costs from future licensing / royalty income? I've had a few contracts like that.


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## Loïc D (Jun 26, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Also, dealing with bass players.


I’m a bass player...
And I do backing vocals...


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## JohnG (Jun 26, 2019)

LowweeK said:


> I’m a bass player...



We'll all bear that in mind when interpreting your offerings.

I'm a recovering lead singer myself. We all have things we're not proud of...


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## cmillar (Jul 9, 2019)

Excellent thread!

As Quincy Jones said several years ago (maybe 20 years ago, and I paraphrase what I can remember:

" Now we have a whole bunch of people calling themselves 'musicians' and 'producers' who've never actually played a real musical instrument in their life.
...and the music of today suffers from this. These so-called 'musicians' don't know what it's like to breath life into an instrument, to have to play with other real people....to actually get the music into their bodies like a dancer has to....real musicians have to feel music in their bodies...they have to breath....react with other real people.
....todays music suffers from a lack of people having never actually played an instrument or done any singing in their lives. A lot of todays music is pretty lame."

(...I paraphrased a long interview to the best of my memory)

I'm so lucky to have been am still am a trombone player. I've worked with classical, jazz, rock, Latin, funk, pop, rock, soul, punk, ambient, Broadway, ballet, opera, new-age, fold, world, highly experimental, etc....etc....etc. musicians and groups.

I'm fortunate to know that sample libraries are only facsimiles of what real musicians are capable of. And it's very frustrating every time I have to use my 'in the box' production gear to create a project for which I can't be able to afford a group of real musicians. I feel like I lose part of my soul everytime I open up the DAW.

But....composing with sample libraries has also enable me to produce some works that would have killed a real trumpet player or drummer if they had to do numerous 'takes' over the course of a day while working in the box. (....and, I do have fun trying to replicate real people....it's a challenge!)

Anyways.... as I tell 'younger' musicians now who think they don't have to know anything about music, music theory, or having to play an actual instrument:

"Why limit yourself? Do you just want to be at the mercy of software producers for your musical life and experience of music? Don't you want to get hired by people doing other projects?....interact with other real people?....get hired by someone because you're really good at your instrument?....be able to play any musical style?.....to be able to read any music placed in front of you?....

...to help make the world a better place?...to take pride in being a creator of music? (not just a cut and paste producer)

Maybe do what I did. I deleted my entire 'Apple Loops' collection off my hard drive (...I don't even use Logic or Garageband, but still had it from years ago.) Toss 'em. Buy some other software that forces you to at least create something 'in the style of'. You'll learn more that way.

By a sample library, make your own sounds, learn the keyboard at least... go out and listen to some real musicians. Go hear a real orchestra and a jazz big band. Hear a string quartet play live.

None of us will ever be like Quincy Jones with his wealth of life experience, but it's someting to aspire to. A machine will never replicate what he's done with real musicians.


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## Studio E (Jul 9, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Also, dealing with bass players.



 Lol! There is no "dealing" with bass players. I guess I assumed maybe they got easier to deal with once you take away their SVT.


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## YaniDee (Jul 9, 2019)

What these "who needs real players?" , button pushing "producers" don't realize, is that there are real musicians who actually played all those loops and phrases and generated the raw sample sounds for their latest pastiche "composition".


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 9, 2019)

cmillar said:


> Excellent thread!
> 
> As Quincy Jones said several years ago (maybe 20 years ago, and I paraphrase what I can remember:
> 
> ...



Too much work and too much money for all of that.

I can make three songs a day with computers. With real instruments, there are a lot more steps and money involved just to get a song to sound decent.

Quincy Jones and others grew up in a time where that was all they had. We have more, so why be ungrateful? 

Are people really in that much of a need to limit themselves to using a real instruments and paying for studio time? The studio is in my laptop!


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## Ashermusic (Jul 9, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Too much work and too much money for all of that.
> 
> I can make three songs a day with computers. With real instruments, there are a lot more steps and money involved just to get a song to sound decent.
> 
> ...



There is a simple test: listen to his music, then listen to yours. Is yours, regardless of genre or how it was created, of similar quality? He was one of the greatest at doing what he did. Can you say the same about yourself? 

If not, a little humility might be in order.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 9, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> There is a simple test: listen to his music, then listen to yours. Is yours, regardless of genre or how it was created, of similar quality? He was one of the greatest at doing what he did. Can you say the same about yourself?
> 
> If not, a little humility might be in order.



I would not compare what I do to Quincy Jones. Of course he is in another league. He grew up in conditions that forced him to become proficient in as many instruments as possible. So he is great at what he does. I am doing something different.

Besides, humility is not my strong suit. I am only working to be great at what I do, not follow in others’ footsteps. I appreciate the groundwork others have laid down, but I am walking a new path.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 9, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I would not compare what I do to Quincy Jones. Of course he is in another league. He grew up in conditions that forced him to become proficient in as many instruments as possible. So he is great at what he does. I am doing something different.
> 
> Besides, humility is not my strong suit. I am only working to be great at what I do, not follow in others’ footsteps. I appreciate the groundwork others have laid down, but I am walking a new path.



But are you great at what you do or just egotistical? I don't know you or your work. But even many of the greats somehow remain humble. You might want to work on it. Just a suggestion.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 9, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> But are you great at what you do or just egotistical? I don't know you or your work. But even many of the greats somehow remain humble. You might want to work on it. Just a suggestion.



I am great.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 9, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I am great.



Please point me to where I can listen to some examples of your greatness


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## visiblenoise (Jul 9, 2019)

Hey, purely electronic music is music too. If you're cool with music that makes little attempt to emulate real instruments (you should be), why bother drawing a line between that and the stuff that does?

Not that I fully agree with the mentality, but I definitely understand it.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 9, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> Please point me to where I can listen to some examples of your greatness



*Of course!*

Check out "Run Hard" and "Triple Double": http://intervox.co.uk/en/To_The_Top_AID-4053?l=EN

Check out "Mellow Tick" and "Ticked Off": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Truth_AID-4018?l=EN

Check out "Boundaries Of Sensation": http://intervox.co.uk/en/In_Between_AID-2803?l=EN

Check out "Future Floss": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Gene_Coding_AID-3474?l=EN

Check out "Slow Forces": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Subtle_Traces_AID-2426?l=EN

Check out "Resist Temptation": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Hellfire_AID-2030?l=EN

Check out "Predator Militia": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Zoom_AID-1833?l=EN

Check out "All The Trappings": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Stylista_AID-3214?l=EN

Check out "Coin Operated Machine": http://intervox.co.uk/en/8_Bit_Beats_AID-2392?l=EN

Check out "Flutter By" and "Through Tepid Waters": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Aqua_Love_AID-2411?l=EN

Check out "Kooky Spooky Time": http://intervox.co.uk/en/Boo_AID-2294?l=EN

---

If you ever want to collab on some stuff, let me know. I'm always game to do business!


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## cmillar (Jul 9, 2019)

visiblenoise said:


> Hey, purely electronic music is music too. If you're cool with music that makes little attempt to emulate real instruments (you should be), why bother drawing a line between that and the stuff that does?
> 
> Not that I fully agree with the mentality, but I definitely understand it.



Agreed....some fantastic electronic music out there; even going back to the '60's and the real pioneers of electronic instruments. The early Moog experimenters did some amazing stuff.

Wonderful because it's a what good music should be....'organized sound'....and electronic music can take you 'places' that traditional instruments can't.....whole new sonic landscapes.... new colors....


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 9, 2019)

cmillar said:


> Agreed....some fantastic electronic music out there; even going back to the '60's and the real pioneers of electronic instruments. The early Moog experimenters did some amazing stuff.
> 
> Wonderful because it's a what good music should be....'organized sound'....and electronic music can take you 'places' that traditional instruments can't.....whole new sonic landscapes.... new colors....



Yeah, I appreciate it all.


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## BlackDorito (Jul 9, 2019)

On the sub-topic of live musicians versus in-the-box, there is no right answer that is suitable for everybody but I would add:


Live musicians:

- get you away from the computer
- become part of the universe of people who populate your musical life
- connect to you on FB and LinkedIn, then get you future gigs
- teach you things about your writing and introduce you to interesting people, including other composers
- sometimes play out of tune - particularly brass and string players
- give you a tepid response when you are most vulnerable because your piece is not in the late 19th century Russian chamber music style that they prefer.
- sometimes don't call you back

DAWs and VI Libraries:

- are there for you 24x7 without fighting any traffic or paying any money (beyond the initial purchase)
- are always in tune
- allow you to do amazing things with musical resources you would otherwise never have any hope of commandeering, e.g. three full string libraries all panned differently, Evo's, Omnisphere industrial, prepared pianos, Olafur Arnalds, Mahlerian orchestral forces, spiky chamber ensembles, and countless other specialty libraries and configurations
- have no humanity, either in their playback or within the social endeavor of music-making
- can suppress the musical muse with a daily onslaught of technical issues
- require you to become a composer, data entry / recordist, mastering engineer

Luckily we can howl about all these things here on VI-C


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> *Of course!*
> 
> Check out "Run Hard" and "Triple Double": http://intervox.co.uk/en/To_The_Top_AID-4053?l=EN
> 
> ...



Definitely some good stuff there, especially the electronica, some not so good, especially the orchestral IMHO.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 10, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> Definitely some good stuff there, especially the electronica, some not so good, especially the orchestral IMHO.



Thanks bro. Let me know if you want to collaborate sometime.


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## dgburns (Jul 10, 2019)

Hey @JohnG much love for your thoughts, really.

I think the next level is really about having players interpret your composition. So much truth in what you wrote that it really is a case of ‘walk a mile in my shoes’ before you can really appreciate.

♥️ nothing better then a great cue played by great players that ‘get’ what you’re trying to do, and having the room ‘with you’. 

It’s the Apex of my aspirations as well. Here’s to you getting to the next level.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 12, 2019)

Yeah, great question. I have numerous 'next levels' and they are continuous rather than any sort of arrival points. I love the combination of real instruments and the wonders that are available with vst's etc., to me they are completely complementary when it comes to composing and recording. Of course nothing can compare to real instruments played live however what is also possible via computers these days is pretty mind-blowing and opens up endless possibilities for composers, as long as they learn their craft properly and don't fall into the trap of relying on the machine to 'replace' musical knowledge or instrumental skill. Without those it can all end up sounding pretty generic and samey imho.

Anyway, I aspire to keep becoming a better guitarist, to play piano better, to write better and better music, to keep developing my orchestration skills, to write faster, to get more listeners for what I have released and will release in the future, to get my music performed etc. etc. All-in-all my next level is to express what is inside me to the utmost of my ability so that when my time comes to leave this planet, I'll hopefully feel like I've gone some way to fulfilling my true potential as a composer and musician.


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## cmillar (Jul 14, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Yeah, great question. I have numerous 'next levels' and they are continuous rather than any sort of arrival points. I love the combination of real instruments and the wonders that are available with vst's etc., to me they are completely complementary when it comes to composing and recording. Of course nothing can compare to real instruments played live however what is also possible via computers these days is pretty mind-blowing and opens up endless possibilities for composers, as long as they learn their craft properly and don't fall into the trap of relying on the machine to 'replace' musical knowledge or instrumental skill. Without those it can all end up sounding pretty generic and samey imho.
> 
> Anyway, I aspire to keep becoming a better guitarist, to play piano better, to write better and better music, to keep developing my orchestration skills, to write faster, to get more listeners for what I have released and will release in the future, to get my music performed etc. etc. All-in-all my next level is to express what is inside me to the utmost of my ability so that when my time comes to leave this planet, I'll hopefully feel like I've gone some way to fulfilling my true potential as a composer and musician.



Yeah...it's nice to have goals about being more proficient at using software to fully utilize it's capabilities to help realize your music. So much to learn...so little time!

But if I only wanted to aspire to have a computer play my music all the time?

That'd be like wanting to always make love to a plastic doll .... I guess?....(haven't tried it!)

Something would always be missing!


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## MarcusMaximus (Jul 15, 2019)

cmillar said:


> But if I only wanted to aspire to have a computer play my music all the time?
> 
> That'd be like wanting to always make love to a plastic doll .... I guess?....(haven't tried it!)
> 
> Something would always be missing!



I dunno.. my girlfriend is a plastic doll and the great thing is she never talks back. Unlike my computer which is way too argumentative!


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