# Pad, Phrases, Sampled &? Explain what the differences are for Symphonic Vi's



## SymphonicDreams (Dec 18, 2022)

Very much a novice. I own Spitfire Core, Emotional Cello and AI Solo, for Strings. I am trying to pick out another Symphonic program and I keep hearing terms like Pads, Phrases and Sampled and a few more in reference to the programs. Can someone please explain what the differences are and why I would want a library with each?


----------



## José Herring (Dec 18, 2022)

SymphonicDreams said:


> Very much a novice. I own Spitfire Core, Emotional Cello and AI Solo, for Strings. I am trying to pick out another Symphonic program and I keep hearing terms like Pads, Phrases and Sampled and a few more in reference to the programs. Can someone please explain what the differences are and why I would want a library with each?


 Pads would refer to synth style pads. If it's made with strings then it would be consider like string pads. Pads are sustain sounds that are traditionally used in background tracks for songs. Via songs it has made its way into scoring.

Phrases are prerecorded musical phrases. Also call "loops". In the sampled world it translates to having ready to go recorded phrases that you can use along with traditional samples. 

Sampled means the instrument was mutli sampled to be played note by note with a keyboard and programmed in a DAW for playback. It's traditional sampling. Spitfire Core and AI Solo are sampled instruments. I don't know much about Emotional Cello but it seems like it would be a sampled instrument as well. 

Me personally I would never get anything called "pads". Seems kind of cheesy and pads are easy to make with synths or sample based material. Best to learn to make pads than buy pads. Save some $$$. 

Phrase libraries do have their use. Usually in supporting other parts of a composition. For drums they are especially useful because some grooves are not likely to be replicated by one shot samples easily. Also phrase libraries are good for repeated "ostinato" type patterns. I was dead apposed to phrase type libraries for years thinking that it was considered like "cheating" but the more you work with traditional samples the more you realize there are certain things sample instruments just can't do well. So prerecorded runs phrases and things like that come in really handy, even if just to act as a blur under a fast run or even ostinatos type writing.

In the end, you'll have to experiment and find what works for you. There are no hard a fast rules and the industry and the technology of computer based music is constantly evolving. The only real error you can make as a novice is to rely too much on phrases. It will make your music generic as almost everybody has the same things and it becomes totally canned music. 10-15 years ago it was okay. Now, not so much.

As far as libraries depending on what you can afford. Hollywood Orchestra, BBC Symphonic Orchestra, is great. VSL has a starter library called Synchron Library. Listen to all demos and decide what you want to do. Don't be fooled by "phrase" type libraries because they will sound fantastic but that is all they will do. It's nearly impossible to make that phrase into something else. But, you could mangle it, time stretch it, ect. and come up with some cool sound design material. I do that a lot.


----------



## SymphonicDreams (Dec 18, 2022)

Really, really appreciate your detailed answer! Thank you so much.

I grew up in the 70's with a Chamberlain...(which is the inventor of a Mellotron). The Chamberlain used a 1/2 tape instead of the 3/8 odd tape of the Mellotron. I had Cello, violin, French horn, flute, oboe and bassoon Trumpet and Trombone. Had lots of fun overdubbing in those days. 

Oddly, I do not think any of the current Mellotron libraries sound any where's near as good as my old Chamberlain. I do love all of my String libraries..and feel with the addition of good reverb they sound quite wonderful. 

Can't help but write some classical-movie theme music with these fantastic VI's. Lots and lots of fun. 

However...my main goal is to use these VI's to back my Acoustic guitar melodic Rock songs.

Where my string libraries are lacking is being able to combine several instruments at the same time. Like combining cellos and horns & flutes all in one track.

I am considering "Amadeus Symphony Orchestra" and "The Orchestra Essentials". Both of those can do that. What are your thoughts on these two and are there any others you would recommend?


----------



## Double Helix (Dec 18, 2022)

Welcome to the forum, @SymphonicDreams -- good to have you aboard!

I have both Amadeus and The Orchestra Essentials (usually abbreviated TOE on the forum)
Although Amadeus will probably not reach the level of a top-tier symphonic orchestral package, I'd bet that either it or TOE will be perfectly serviceable (even more than enough, tbh) to under-gird your acoustic guitar rock songs
But you already have Spitfire Core, so wring that baby out before you add other (superfluous) orchestral sets


Your Chamberlain reference reminds me that I used a Mellotron (#927) for many years in my full-time musician days on the road; had two tape racks violin+cello+flute on one, mixed choir+full orchestra+something else that I do not immediately recall (maybe it was an oboe)
I realize that it's difficult to believe, but #927 never missed a performance/100% reliable

And I agree with you that the digital re-creations of the Mellotron fall a bit short of the real thing (I am definitely showing my age 8-)

Have fun in your symphonic adventures


----------



## José Herring (Dec 18, 2022)

SymphonicDreams said:


> Really, really appreciate your detailed answer! Thank you so much.
> 
> I grew up in the 70's with a Chamberlain...(which is the inventor of a Mellotron). The Chamberlain used a 1/2 tape instead of the 3/8 odd tape of the Mellotron. I had Cello, violin, French horn, flute, oboe and bassoon Trumpet and Trombone. Had lots of fun overdubbing in those days.
> 
> ...


Ah. Thank you for including the background information. Makes a lot of sense.

What you are looking for are section multi sample type libraries. It's kind of my next vista when it comes to sample libraries. Cello+horns recorded multi sampled will be far better than cello and horns patches combined in a daw if you get what I mean.

If I ever get the cash to actually do my own sampling, I will start combining instrument sections as library developers either aren't familiar with the typical orchestral doubling or are really not interested in it. 

But, some combi patches are in existence. Orchestral tools Ark stuff, and VSL Synchron BBO series. Spitfire has a smattering if stuff and their Abbey Road One collection is quite good and has a lot of section type stuff. 

I'm not too much of a fan of Amadeus or Orchestral essentials but I don't own either so keep that in mind. 

The big problem with many multi sampled section patches involving different instrument types is that they too often record them in octaves especially if that patch includes instruments from different sections. It's about as useful as a kazoo sample imo because it's not long before you start writing in parallel octaves making everything sound really hollow.


----------



## SymphonicDreams (Dec 18, 2022)

Double Helix said:


> Welcome to the forum, @SymphonicDreams -- good to have you aboard!
> 
> I have both Amadeus and The Orchestra Essentials (usually abbreviated TOE on the forum)
> Although Amadeus will probably not reach the level of a top-tier symphonic orchestral package, I'd bet that either it or TOE will be perfectly serviceable (even more than enough, tbh) to under-gird your acoustic guitar rock songs
> ...


Another fellow Mellotron-Chamberlain user! Fun days we use to have eh? Thank you so much for the warm welcome. 

So tell me more about which one would be best for my needs, Amadeus or TOE?. 

Spitfire Orchestra Core is nice...but you can not play multiple instruments at the same time. I was able to do it by recording on three separate tracts at one time. And that did work but takes more time to align. And the keys don't always line up for playing multiple instruments using the same notes. And Core does not have choir. Would love to be able to mix choir with violins and cellos. Ultimately I would like to be able to mix each instrument in a given section on one tract( As I have seen in videos on Amadeus or TOE). I think both have internal mixers so you can adjust the level of each instrument in your combined instruments sections. 

Mostly I would be using sustains ...Legato for multi instruments would not have much value for my particular needs. And I can also get legato for individual instruments in my Spitfire. However, I did hear some really fun special patches in TOE.

TOE does have some very interesting special patches that look like they would most certainly be fun & useful. Amadeus is only $149 and TOE is only $99. Ultimately I need the one that is the most realistic sounding. 

FabFilter Pro R has so many deep reaching verbs..and really opens up strings to give it that old Swirling Moody Blues sound.

Anyway...looking forward to hearing your opinion on which would be best for myself. Age wise..I am not too far behind you...but I still feel 18teen when my fingers hit the keys and the swirling symphonic sound flows out.


----------



## Double Helix (Dec 18, 2022)

Flip a coin -- I think that TOE is the stripped down version of The Orchestra Complete, by Sounscore (someone will chime in if I'm mistaken), so it might have the edge
Amadeus has lots of articulations, lots of instruments: choir, guitar, piano, tubular bells, two kitchen sinks &c
I don't use it as much as I use The Orchestra, but it will hang with all but the platinum-level, terabyte sets. Based upon your intended use, it might be a cost-efficient utility infielder
Another cost-effective option (read "free") is Spitfire Audio's BBC Symphony Orchestra Discover

Member @Taron created some astounding tracks using Discover only (I mean, really impressive):





Exploring BBCSO Discover...


Holy hell, I feel now seriously insecure, hoping that I can share with you my early explorations with BBCSO Discover, mildly afraid that I'm miles upon miles behind where you folks are in this genre. So, while I have done a few occasional orchestral compositions with other libraries, I've never...




vi-control.net





I am a self-described pre-neo-noob; therefore, take what I say with a three-pound bag of sea salt
We all have to start somewhere, but you are doing exactly the right thing by soliciting lots of opinions; @José Herring's point-of-view is valued around these parts, so you'll get some excellent direction


----------



## Justin L. Franks (Dec 19, 2022)

SymphonicDreams said:


> Another fellow Mellotron-Chamberlain user! Fun days we use to have eh? Thank you so much for the warm welcome.
> 
> So tell me more about which one would be best for my needs, Amadeus or TOE?.



What you already have can do what you want.



SymphonicDreams said:


> Spitfire Orchestra Core is nice...but you can not play multiple instruments at the same time. I was able to do it by recording on three separate tracts at one time. And that did work but takes more time to align.



You can play or record to multiple tracks simultaneously. Or just copy the MIDI from one track to the others.



SymphonicDreams said:


> And the keys don't always line up for playing multiple instruments using the same notes.



Different instruments have different ranges. A new library won't fix that, you can't sample instruments at ranges they physically cannot play. You can get away with pitch-stretching the upper or lower range of an instrument a couple semitones if you just need that tiny bit extra range, but this quickly starts sounding like crap the further you move away from its actual range.

If you want to play two instruments with very different ranges (say flute + horn), then you can use the transpose function in Studio Orchestra Core or BBCSO Core (not sure which one you have, you just said "Spitfire Core") to play them in octaves. Transpose the lower instrument down -12 or the higher instrument up +12. This will shift the keyboard range, so the high instrument will play an octave higher than the low instrument.

Also, if you have Studio Orchestra Core, not BBCSO Core, for my previous comment about playing/recording with multiple instruments simultaneously, you can just load multiple instruments inside Kontakt.



SymphonicDreams said:


> And Core does not have choir. Would love to be able to mix choir with violins and cellos.



Spitfire Originals Epic Choir for $29.



SymphonicDreams said:


> Ultimately I would like to be able to mix each instrument in a given section on one tract( As I have seen in videos on Amadeus or TOE). I think both have internal mixers so you can adjust the level of each instrument in your combined instruments sections.



DAWs have multiple tracks for a reason, use them. There are also ways to combine tracks so that one fader will control the master volume for the group, and have separate faders for the individual instruments. Like track stacks in Logic, or folder tracks / group tracks in Cubase. You'll get the functionality you want, without having to buy anything more.

Basically, don't spend more money for something you can already do with what you have.


----------



## SymphonicDreams (Dec 19, 2022)

Justin L. Franks said:


> What you already have can do what you want.
> 
> You can play or record to multiple tracks simultaneously. Or just copy the MIDI from one track to the others.


Thanks so much for all of the help! I have recorded several tracts together previously. I believe I do something like what you are saying, I copy the tract, then on the new tract I change the instrument. So If I recorded in Cello, I copy and drag down to a new tract in logic, and then change to French horn.
That way I get both Cello and French horn. Is that what you mean by copying the Midi?


Justin L. Franks said:


> Different instruments have different ranges. A new library won't fix that, you can't sample instruments at ranges they physically cannot play. You can get away with pitch-stretching the upper or lower range of an instrument a couple semitones if you just need that tiny bit extra range, but this quickly starts sounding like crap the further you move away from its actual range.
> 
> If you want to play two instruments with very different ranges (say flute + horn), then you can use the transpose function in Studio Orchestra Core or BBCSO Core (not sure which one you have, you just said "Spitfire Core") to play them in octaves. Transpose the lower instrument down -12 or the higher instrument up +12. This will shift the keyboard range, so the high instrument will play an octave higher than the low instrument.


 
Thanks for confirming the transpose function. I thought this was possible but I wasn't quite sure. I will look into that and learn how to do. The Transposed function will be nice to learn anyway...so I don't have to keep moving the hands up for each instrument. Can I permantely program the transposed positions so I do not have to do it each time? Or is there value with leaving them in the positions they are in?


Justin L. Franks said:


> Also, if you have Studio Orchestra Core, not BBCSO Core, for my previous comment about playing/recording with multiple instruments simultaneously, you can just load multiple instruments inside Kontakt.


No I only have the BBCSO Core. One of the difficulties with newbies like myself, is it is so hard figuring out the values of the different programs. Apparently that would be one of the values with the Studio Core.


Justin L. Franks said:


> Spitfire Originals Epic Choir for $29.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good advice. 
I suppose I could just build templates with everything ready to go. Already preloaded with cellos, violins, horns flutes...with the transposed keys in place. 

So much great advice about using what you have. I bought AI SOLO because I liked the individual sounds of the French Horns and Flutes(cellos & strings not so much). And BBCSO CORE does not do the solo thing. And Emotional Cello does the single cello nicely.

So how does one then determine when and if we need new libraries? It seems like when I read the threads on VI-Control that so many people have multiple libraries of the same Symphonic instruments.

A big question for myself is if I should invest in the Full Kontact? There are so many individual acoustic instruments that I would be interested in...but require Full Version. Fun stuff like celtic flues, pan flutes that sound nice and usually are pretty inexpensive. Is it worth it to invest in the Full Kontact?


----------



## Justin L. Franks (Dec 19, 2022)

SymphonicDreams said:


> Thanks so much for all of the help! I have recorded several tracts together previously. I believe I do something like what you are saying, I copy the tract, then on the new tract I change the instrument. So If I recorded in Cello, I copy and drag down to a new tract in logic, and then change to French horn.
> That way I get both Cello and French horn. Is that what you mean by copying the Midi?



Yup. You can also arm multiple tracks for recording (or if you put multiple tracks into a track stack / folder track / whatever your DAW calls it, just record on that), and play/record all the instruments simultaneously.



SymphonicDreams said:


> Thanks for confirming the transpose function. I thought this was possible but I wasn't quite sure. I will look into that and learn how to do. The Transposed function will be nice to learn anyway...so I don't have to keep moving the hands up for each instrument. Can I permantely program the transposed positions so I do not have to do it each time? Or is there value with leaving them in the positions they are in?



You can save user patches in BBCSO with the transpose option set. Plus any other options you want it to have. Then just load that user patch instead of the factory patch.



SymphonicDreams said:


> No I only have the BBCSO Core. One of the difficulties with newbies like myself, is it is so hard figuring out the values of the different programs. Apparently that would be one of the values with the Studio Core.



Good, I was hoping you had BBCSO Core and not Studio Orchestra Core. Studio Orchestra is definitely not a good option for beginners. And many people think the Core version of Studio Orchestra isn't good for anyone. The Pro version is a lot more capable, but again, it's not a good starter library.



SymphonicDreams said:


> I suppose I could just build templates with everything ready to go. Already preloaded with cellos, violins, horns flutes...with the transposed keys in place.



Yup you can do that too. There is a set of premade templates from Spitfire available for most DAWs. You would probably want the "single instance / simple routing" version if there are multiple versions for your DAW. I know the Logic and Cubase templates have multiple versions, but I'm not sure about the others.

But really these aren't set up for what you are doing (mixing and matching instruments from different parts of the orchestra). So you'd probably be better off making a template yourself tailored exactly to what you want to do. But even if the premade templates don't work for you, you can still use them to learn about templates and routing, to help you make your own.



SymphonicDreams said:


> So much great advice about using what you have. I bought AI SOLO because I liked the individual sounds of the French Horns and Flutes(cellos & strings not so much). And BBCSO CORE does not do the solo thing. And Emotional Cello does the single cello nicely.



BBCSO Core has solos for the woodwinds and brass. Just not the strings, that's only in the Pro version (along with additional instruments and a whole slew of mic options).



SymphonicDreams said:


> So how does one then determine when and if we need new libraries? It seems like when I read the threads on VI-Control that so many people have multiple libraries of the same Symphonic instruments.



It's based on what you figure out you don't like about your current set of libraries, or if you find something particular that your current libraries does not handle well. Like you mentioned you didn't really care for the strings in AI Solo, so you got Emotional Cello to augment that. Likewise, you may find you don't really care for certain parts of BBCSO Core, so you get something else to use for it.

Every library does some things well, and some things not so well. For example, a common complaint about BBCSO is that the brass doesn't really have the intense, "super-brassy" highest dynamics. So if you agree with that, you would look to a library which handles it better. Tom Holkenborg Brass from Orchestra Tools does the intense/"epic" brass sound extremely well, so it would be a good option to "fix" that.

But unless you find something about your current libraries which is really holding you back with what they cannot do well (or at all), it would probably be better to pick up "adjunct" libraries that do something new, rather than another standard orchestral library. For instance, Olafur Arnalds Chamber Evolutions (commonly referred to here as "OACE"), which gives you long and evolving strings textures, would probably be a better addition than just another library like BBCSO.



SymphonicDreams said:


> A big question for myself is if I should invest in the Full Kontact? There are so many individual acoustic instruments that I would be interested in...but require Full Version. Fun stuff like celtic flues, pan flutes that sound nice and usually are pretty inexpensive. Is it worth it to invest in the Full Kontact?


Absolutely. The full version of Kontakt is definitely worth it. There are so many inexpensive (and even free) libraries that require the full version.

Your best bet is to wait until Native Instruments has its next 50% off sale. Then you can either buy Kontakt full by itself, or pick up Komplete 14 Standard for $300. That comes with a whole slew of libraries, synths, and effects.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 20, 2022)

If you have BBCSO Core and want to use playable patches that combine let’s say strings and woodwinds or brass and winds, maybe check out Unify too. John “Skippy” Lemkuhl created a whole bunch of “multis” and made them available as “Discoverstation”. Or in your case “Corestation”



This needs a software program called Unify, which is basically a plugin that lets you load various other virtual instruments and create layered sounds (among other things).











Using Unify with Spitfire BBCSO And More | Taking Things Further


#spitfireaudio #originals #bbcso #unifyI continue to discover more possibilities using Unify along with Spitfire libraries, in particular their BBC Symphony ...




www.youtube.com





Investment:

1) $33 for Corestation









DiscoverStation and CoreStation for Unify | BBCSO - PluginGuru.com


Flexible Drum Loop library for PlugInGuru Unify 1.1 with 450 RX2 Grooves and more!




www.pluginguru.com





2) $80 for Unify









Unify (Standard Edition) - PluginGuru.com


Unify 1.9.1 is here with Apple Silicon support and a new MIDI Effect called CC RIDER that changes EVERYTHING!!!




www.pluginguru.com





With Unify in your toolkit, you get to do much more with all your various virtual instruments so it may be worth your while. Just another way of trying to leverage the sounds you already got (Spitfire BBCSO).


----------



## Justin L. Franks (Dec 20, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> If you have BBCSO Core and want to use playable patches that combine let’s say strings and woodwinds or brass and winds, maybe check out Unify too. John “Skippy” Lemkuhl created a whole bunch of “multis” and made them available as “Discoverstation”. Or in your case “Corestation”



Ah yes, I totally forgot about Unify. I actually bought it during the recent sale, but haven't gotten around to trying it out yet. It should be a great tool for the OP.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 20, 2022)

Justin L. Franks said:


> Ah yes, I totally forgot about Unify. I actually bought it during the recent sale, but haven't gotten around to trying it out yet. It should be a great tool for the OP.


It is an amazing tool. @Simeon got me hooked on it. Brilliant stuff, and I think we concur OP is really looking for this without knowing it


----------



## SymphonicDreams (Dec 20, 2022)

I am dripping with Happy Tears right now...for all of the kind help I have been getting. Thank you all so very much. So many wonderful suggestions. As a Newbie...this kind of help truly makes a difference.

I am leaving for three days to visit friends, so I don't have the full time needed to watch and learn from the videos. From the few minutes I have seen, l UNIFY & Corestation will offer exactly what I need & more! But again...I need more time to process and truly understand what these plug ins are actually doing. 

I would seem from all the responses that everyone has high regard for Spitfire Audio. I am very happy with BBCSO Core. What are the characteristics about Spitfire that makes it such a well received company? There are so many things that I do understand as of yet. Like Purging. I know that Spitfire works differently in that regard, I believe it does it automatically. Is it the Sound of Spitfire? Or the way the programs work, that make them such a beloved VI?


----------



## Double Helix (Dec 20, 2022)

I do not want to de-rail this thread beyond redemption, but YES, @SymphonicDreams should absolutely consider becoming Unify'd

The PlugInGuru's "z" patches at the bottom of the plugins that have gotten the Unify treatment are a testament to Skippy's mad programming skills: Uniquely innovative & creative

Highest endorsement


----------



## Cyberic (Dec 20, 2022)

The Orchestra Essentials (TOE) is indeed a cut down version of the orchestra and the sound is superb. Simeon did an excellent review of it a while back : Simeon, The Orchestra Essentials


----------



## José Herring (Dec 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> If you have BBCSO Core and want to use playable patches that combine let’s say strings and woodwinds or brass and winds, maybe check out Unify too. John “Skippy” Lemkuhl created a whole bunch of “multis” and made them available as “Discoverstation”. Or in your case “Corestation”
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow! The Jordan Rudess video sounds way better than I imagined this could sound. Unify seems like Reason's combinator on steroids.


----------

