# Being picky about the films you score



## Tanuj Tiku (Oct 25, 2014)

I am a Composer/Music Producer/Programmer based in Mumbai, India.

I realize that this may be different in different parts of the world but I thought I will get some feedback anyway!

I have mostly been working as an additional composer on films in Mumbai. I am now hoping to make the jump to becoming a composer on paper at least  Though I have been ghost writing/producing for about 7 years. I always held myself back because I thought that I needed to learn more about the industry, get more experience and get better at writing music. Not that, any of that has changed but now I feel like I have ideas I want to put down myself. 

Some people have offered me films before but I have turned them down simply because they were really bad. My first feature film as a composer was a national release but it bombed at the box office and I never really got any calls to do more work and nobody really cared that I had done that film. The score got good reviews but....Well, I guess they should not care, its just one movie!

I am reluctant to work on films that are not good or I know that I will have a miserable time doing. But, may be I have been thinking it wrong. Most of my colleagues here seem to think its good to build your catalogue even if the films are not that great.

My problem is not only that the stories are not exciting, the production is average but also it becomes difficult to stay motivated. Part of the thing I feel is the job of a composer where the music can hopefully make a scene better. But if the whole project's vision is compromised fundamentally, I am not sure how much a composer could do? Plus, good films are incredibly difficult to find/get of course!

So my question is that do you guys hold out on doing films that may pay decent and even have a proper release but won't allow you to do great music and films that are just bad! I meet a lot of people who just don't care about the film. They are mostly in it for the money. Some people make their money, some loose money and people move on. 

Or do you bite the bullet and keep working because it gets you more composing gigs and wait till the right film comes along? 

I guess, my questions are more for the experienced composers or people who have been doing this for a long time. 

How did you guys start? Were you picky?


Tanuj.


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## markwind (Oct 25, 2014)

Love this question! Looking forward to hear from some of the experienced folk here


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## RiffWraith (Oct 25, 2014)

This comes up from time to time.

Others might beg to differ, but... The single most important asset a composer has is his/her IMDB credit list. With it, you have little chance at success. Without it, you have virtually none. That's not to say you can never get a job scoring a film with no IMDB credits, but the point is, if you want to keep working AND move up in the world, you need to keep adding to your credit list. It's the first place people tend to look. If you are not getting offered films you are happy with, and you are either not getting paid or getting paid very little, and you do not need material for your demo reel, and there is no IMDB credit to be had, then maybe you want to stay away. But if there are credits, you should go for it. EVERY composer has to deal with material he/she is not happy with; it's just the nature of the biz. But until you are at a point in your career where you can turn down work at will, you really should seriously consider getting your hands on anything you can. If you keep waiting till the right film to come along, you might be waiting forever. Literally.

Cheers.


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## rgames (Oct 25, 2014)

There is a simple answer: there is no simple answer.

I've turned down more gigs than I've taken because I have a day job and don't need the money. If you need the money, that's a tougher call, and there's nothing wrong doing what you must in order to make a living (to an extent, of course). Of course, after doing that a while, I quit getting offers and I just don't do films any more.

I believe the best way to get onto good films is to get to know the people making good films. I seriously doubt they're looking at IMDB credits. They're looking to see who's out there at social events. If you're the guy they see and strike up a conversation with, I bet that's worth about 500 IMDB credits.

It's the same in any business: you need some minimum level of competence but, after that, success is more about networking.

rgames


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## mverta (Oct 25, 2014)

Tanuj's question was very specific: Do we do films just for the money even if it's a bad film and we won't get to do good work?


Here's my advice:

In 1987, Brad Pitt played the part of "Guy at Beach with Drink" - he was paid shit, and didn't even receive credit for it. Today, if he took that role, it would have repercussions on his career. It would affect his salary, and the kinds of jobs he was offered; it would have people concerned, especially because he hasn't established himself as the sort of Bill Murray eccentric who might do that sort of thing. In fact, Bill Murray is pretty much the only guy who can get away with that. Eccentricity is currently torpedoing Shia LeBeoueweuouef, by contrast, you'll notice.

Ultimately, the more visible you are, the more scrutinized you are. 

Now, we composers rarely get the credit or attention we deserve for our contributions to a film. But on the flip side, we rarely take the hit when the film flops. I can't actually think of an example where the blame for a major release that didn't perform was laid on the music. But ultimately, we are far less subject to career-ending missteps than most of the upfront-credit people. A director can flop and never work again, but chances are his composer will find other directors. A quick think through the roster of composers proves this to be undeniably true - no shortage of working composers have weathered flops - sometimes several.

So my advice to people coming up is: Work. I tell composers to do as many Sci-Fi Channel/Asylum films and that type of shit as they can. They're fantastic practice, with little to no consequence for failure, nobody's paying attention to you yet, and you don't even have to put your name on it if you don't want to. But the experience is priceless. Enjoy the time under the radar as much as you can.

And take the money. If you can't pay your bills and sustain your life, we're not going to get a chance to hear about your brilliance in the first place.

We are generally under the radar; it sucks most of the time, but it also affords us some leeway here. As your visibility increases, scrutiny over what you do and how much you charge becomes more of an issue. But even now, if Hans suddenly decided to score a small little independent film on his own, the net effect would not be that he doesn't get to do Superman Reborn Again or whatever. In fact, all that would happen is the little independent film would suddenly get a ton of legitimacy and attention, and Hans would be lauded for supporting young artists. 

So ultimately, don't believe that your entire career hinges on these early decisions. It doesn't.

Sylvester Stallone did porn once. And no shortage of actresses "needed the money." Relax. And learning to deliver a good product under the worst of circumstances is a good skill to have, too.


_Mike


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## passenger57 (Oct 25, 2014)

John Williams worked on 'Gilligan's Island' and James Horner 'Humanoids from the Deep' when they were starting out.


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## David Story (Oct 25, 2014)

A better plan: Find talented filmmakers, be their friend, and score their films. Eventually you'll make a good one. And good relationships are part of why a great film happens.


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## mverta (Oct 25, 2014)

David, he wasn't asking what to do in ideal circumstance, he was asking what to do in difficult circumstances. Yes, of course it would be wonderful to have every woman we date be a true love. When starting out? Date. Date a lot. Learn much. That's how you figure out what your true love will be like. Meanwhile, you're getting your nut, so to speak. And finding her will be only SLIGHTLY harder than finding that super-talented filmmaker who you gel with personally, and who is consistently bankrolled. Expect few of those, harnessed over decades. 

_Mike


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## Tanuj Tiku (Oct 25, 2014)

Thank you for responding guys. 

Mike, 
I understand what you are saying and that is the route that I am planning to take. Sure, it would be great to work with amazing filmmakers and get the right films but I know well, one has to earn it. 

And it's not like I write the best music in the world. I am still learning and there is so much more to do. Sometimes, it gets crazy in my head about how little I know about so many things causing sleepless nights just thinking about this stuff. Just because I have been around for a few years, doesn't automatically mean that I deserve something. I am a believer of learning and putting in the hours and the years. I am also in it for the long term, rarely insecure about work or money. 

I suppose every musician goes through their own phases. And writing to picture is so different to writing songs or music which is not to picture. Our industry is weird, insecure, cut-throat and crazy! But, what choice do we have - we love films 

Money is never a priority for me. I have refused many jobs and opportunities when money was fantastic but it just was not worth my time and efforts. That is another topic, however. 

I make good money from writing music. Work is not a problem at this point and I am very thankful for that. Mean it!

But I am sometimes reluctant of doing not so good films or projects that sometimes don't allow you to be the best of yourself. Notice, I am not talking about me writing the best music - it is not a guarantee that I can provide. All you can hope is that the best of you can come forward in a project. Plus, I know well that my music isn't the best always. But, I try to put my best foot forward. Sometimes it works, most other times - well, its subjective.

Why am I reluctant? Well, its the whole I suppose over-thought art thing. Practice is important and getting good at your music is important. Pressure and being a professional teaches you a lot of things. I have had a good share of that kind of stuff. Things you learn on the job. When the going gets tough and you are in the deep end with real projects. 

I could just continue as an additional composer and ghost write as well. It's good money and I get to work on some of the biggest films in India. So far, that is! 

But the composer time bomb is ticking inside me. I always saw myself doing that from the beginning. But I consciously made the effort of not getting into it straight on. For one reason only and that is to learn and get the experience. I waited to make the calls, waited to meet people. In time, it worked out. By the time I reached out to some people, my writing was better than before and I was more experienced to handle certain things. But, you can never be too ready - each project is usually unique 

I am at cross-roads again. I started with commercials. Worked on about 200 of those but I never really loved it. I always wanted to do films and luckily the transition happened. I took a risk and a step down and started refusing work for commercials. Now, I rarely do one. Films took off. 

Once again, I face similar circumstances. I want to write as a composer now. 

I have met some friends who have been around for longer and usually I find that people become bitter if they don't do what they really want to do early on even if the gigs are not that great. I am not always worried about where I will be career wise in a few years. Of course, we all have dreams. I know, I have. I am not shamed of them. But, my fear is of doing bad films and work for far too long and eventually my music getting worse and my skills weak! 

But, I guess that is not how it works. You just try to do your best, the rest will take care of itself. That is how I have done it till now. 


It's great to hear about this stuff from others and thank you for posting Mike!


Tanuj.


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## AC986 (Oct 26, 2014)

All very interesting.

One question you omitted.


*How do I actually know if a film is any good or not?*


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 26, 2014)

When you look at the lists of credits of some of the great film composers of the past, you can tell that often how 'good or not' a film is doesn't seem to factor heavily in their thinking.

See one of my great hero's list of credits - Jerry Goldsmith - for an example of that.


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## AC986 (Oct 26, 2014)

What I should have said is, how do know if a film that you are being offered to score is any good or not? After all, the film comes to you without a score and just dialogue etc. There may be a temp score, but you're never going to be able to tell if it's any good or not until after you take the job and then receive the final cut. Am I right?


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 26, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> What I should have said is, how do know if a film that you are being offered to score is any good or not? After all, the film comes to you without a score and just dialogue etc. There may be a temp score, but you're never going to be able to tell if it's any good or not until after you take the job and then receive the final cut. Am I right?



I don't really know myself - but I think there are many times when the composer flat out knows the film is bad before they agree to score it, but takes the gig anyway - even established great A list highly talented composers like Jerry Goldsmith was.

So they must be choosing these films for other reasons (Money? A favour for a friend? To fill a gap in their schedule?……….).


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## Daryl (Oct 26, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> adriancook @ Sun Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> > What I should have said is, how do know if a film that you are being offered to score is any good or not? After all, the film comes to you without a score and just dialogue etc. There may be a temp score, but you're never going to be able to tell if it's any good or not until after you take the job and then receive the final cut. Am I right?
> ...


I would say that if it has a title like "Attack of the Alien Hunter Killer Bees" you pretty much know that it is going to be cr*p. Or if it has Los Angeles in the title. :wink: 

D


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## Tanuj Tiku (Oct 26, 2014)

@adriancook,
That is a good question. When I worked on an animation film for the first time under a composer, it was eye-opening. I love animation films and sure we studied all this at university and I even scored a few short ones but when a proper working feature presented itself, it was different. 

After we finished the music, the animation was alive! Prior to that many of the scenes did not seem to work at all. But that was before I worked on 4 animation feature films, about 5 shorts and 30 animated commercials. 

It does not mean that I always know that what will work of course. No way! But, after over 30 movies, working with some of the best directors and composers in the country, I have some experience up my belt. Sure, its not Hollywood but I am not in that industry. 

I am not talking about subjective films. I loved Her. Some of my colleagues felt bored in that film and I was like - what??? I thought it was a great film, just by reading the synopsis and with Spike Jonze directing!!! I am not talking about those kind of projects.

Surely, you can tell when a film is beyond saving? Well, if you cant after the kind of experience that I am talking about (which is still quite less) then I don't think you would know how to score a film because you may not identify the problem areas or interesting ways of communicating the story through music. 

Of course, the director is there to help you - or destroy your life 

Now, as an additional composer, sure I get called in by a lot of top drawer composers but I am talking about getting myself going with composition - music under my own name. 

And I am not even getting into other things like, beyond writing the music, handling your team, leading them, staying inspired, working with musicians, deadlines, delivering the score, the tech side and working with eccentric directors, rude and sometimes idiotic producers. 

I worked on a film last year which was brilliant. They showed me some footage and it was very unique. Nobody in India had really made a film like that and I had no idea how to do anything. There was a composer and basically it was me and another colleague. We basically did the whole score between the two of us. The composer gave us a couple of themes and thats it. We worked everything out including spotting and many other things. It was almost like a composing gig. 

We got a music producer credit on the front titles. 

After showing the rough footage, the director basically said that he knew exactly the kind of music he wanted. He said, it works really well and we have temped the whole movie, edited it to the cues and it works! Just stick as close to the reference as possible. 

Any guess what music it was? The Dark Knight - All over the film. 

I spoke to the producer and said that the only way I was doing the film was that if TDK was off the table. Because its immoral, illegal in some cases and does not work for the film whatsoever. Luckily they were OK because what we did worked for the film and they loved it eventually. It won an award and all. This was a complete ghost writing job. 

Another brilliant film I worked on as an additional composer, the director had no idea about music or use of music in film. They had no references but he just wasn't a very musical director. In fact in a couple of meetings he asked us to not get into the story too much after a few heated discussions because he did not agree with the kind of music we were doing. 

But in the end he did agree and it was not easy to work with this guy. 10 months later, we won the award for best original score. In a small way its the equivalent of an Oscar in Hollywood. It did not really matter to us - the award. Nice to be appreciated but we believed in the film and the score - award or no award. But the director and the producers loved us after that. Now, we are on his list. He even insists on the same team being assembled with the composer.

Over the years, we made a few such relationships. On one movie, even an influential actor made some calls and requested for us to be on a particular film because he believed in us on the last project and had a great time. 


Anyway, these are my thoughts and experiences. 


Jerry Goldsmith - great example! But then he was a genius! Who can score China Town in 5 days 


Tanuj.


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## gbar (Oct 26, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> I would say that if it has a title like "Attack of the Alien Hunter Killer Bees" you pretty much know that it is going to be cr*p. Or if it has Los Angeles in the title. :wink:
> 
> D




lol

John Massari, Composing for the Chiodo Brothers' Kult Klassic "Killer Klowns from Outer Space" inerview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHxzEcFBqA


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## Daryl (Oct 26, 2014)

Hmmm. That sort of proves my point really.

D


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## gbar (Oct 26, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> Hmmm. That sort of proves my point really.
> 
> D



But you have to admit, working with the Chiodo Brothers would probably be a lot of fun. 


Harry Gregson-Williams was the composer for "Team America: World Police". (Written by Trey Parker & Matt Stone, Puppetry by the Chiodo Brothers). Bet that was a blast.


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## Daryl (Oct 26, 2014)

gbar @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm. That sort of proves my point really.
> ...


Not on that film, for me, at least.



gbar @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> Marc Shaiman was the composer for "Team America: World Police". Bet that was a blast.


I think he did the songs. Wasn't the score from HGW?

But yes, that would have been fun. :lol: 

D


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## gbar (Oct 26, 2014)

I made a mistake in who got the score credit.

Harry Gregson-Williams got the score credit. Marc Shaiman only wrote "Everyone Has AIDS" for that film, so you are right, and I corrected the original post.

My bad. Bad memory. I forget why that is happening.


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## Daryl (Oct 26, 2014)

gbar @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> My bad. Bad memory. I forget why that is happening.


 >8o 

D


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## gbar (Oct 26, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> gbar @ Sun Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> > My bad. Bad memory. I forget why that is happening.
> ...



If there as a little blusihng emoticon, I'd use it right now.  Should have googled that first.


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## Daryl (Oct 26, 2014)

gbar @ Sun Oct 26 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> > gbar @ Sun Oct 26 said:
> ...


Maybe this one will do :oops: 

D


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