# String Runs



## MettaAudio (Aug 30, 2008)

This may be a very noob question to ask, but I've been working on some orchestra music and I'm trying to get realistic fast string runs. The problem I'm having is with samples you can hear each individual note too much. There's a 'blurriness' that real orchestral strings get I can't seem to simulate. Here's an example:

Fake Run - http://mettaaudio.com/mp3/fake_run.mp3

Real Run - http://mettaaudio.com/mp3/real_run.mp3

The problem seems to be the sample library string are too accurate, and you can discern the individual pitches too well. It needs to be more of a gesture than 8 desecrate note.

Any suggestions on how to accomplish this in a mockup is greatly appreciated!

John


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## JohnG (Aug 30, 2008)

It's almost impossible to make sample-only string runs sound really good.

The best thing is to have a section of live players double them.

If you're stuck with electronics only, some people layer many different libraries; some people use a "legato" or other library that has some kind of portamento to the sample or a script that mimics same; some people add a solo cello or vln or vla on top of a section. Some people add a wind instrument on top.

I try to avoid writing runs at all if I'm constrained to use samples.


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## Thonex (Aug 30, 2008)

Or... use actual samples of octave runs... major, minor, chromatic etc. There are a number of libraries that have these... VSL, Advanced Orchestra, some really old Prosonus stuff etc.

Kontakt can alter the tempo of the runs with it's Time Machine.

Hope this helps.

T


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 30, 2008)

Common technique used by many is to layer a tremolo patch underneath to "mess" up the playing.


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## david robinson (Aug 31, 2008)

hi,
as a composer, when i write a "string run", i actually WANT all the discrete notes to be heard. (otherwise i'd place a slur to indicate otherwise)
i do not want a "gesture" and certainly not "mush".
to me, a string ensemble, real i mean, that can't cut this type of thing is useless.
generally, there's about two good players out of eight in the section. the rest are passengers and are the ones that screw it up.
precision is everything in music.
the thibngs you want to hear in run are up to you, but for myself, i prefer precision.
DR9.


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## Waywyn (Aug 31, 2008)

MettaAudio @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> This may be a very noob question to ask, but I've been working on some orchestra music and I'm trying to get realistic fast string runs. The problem I'm having is with samples you can hear each individual note too much. There's a 'blurriness' that real orchestral strings get I can't seem to simulate. Here's an example:
> 
> Fake Run - http://mettaaudio.com/mp3/fake_run.mp3
> 
> ...



Try the string runs of Opus2. You can get almost realistic runs out of it.
The little trick you have to do is to not use every run sample with its full length, but to overlap the midi events. Sometimes I overlap the end of the MIDI event to almost a 8th note to the next one. With that you get those smeary slurs.

You decide if it sounds good for you, but you can visit my website and hit the listening room. Listen to "Burst in flames" from around 00:40, "Threat and salvation" from around 00:23 (just very short) or "Defcon Six" from 01:04. I am more or less pleased with the results ...

btw: sweeet avatar


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## Dave Connor (Aug 31, 2008)

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/19436.aspx

Here's an excellent demo of what VSL can do which is sort of all points in between from hearing each note to blurred somewhat to very blurred (depending on the patch.) VSL also has pre-recorded runs which are pretty darn good as well. I usually play mine in or have some played and others use the recorded runs (i.e. layering played and recorded.) With VSL you usually have the best shot at any given articulation since they have more than any other commercial library to date.


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## MettaAudio (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I've tried various levels of layering, but hadn't really considered the pre-recorded runs. I have a feeling that's going to be the way to go for the most part. The only problem there is your limited to diatonic runs.

JohnG I hadn't thought about using the portamento feature. That may help as well. Looks like more experimenting on my part. Thanks so much for all the suggestions!

Waywyn, thanks for the music samples (and the props on the avatar!) I enjoyed checking out your work. There's some great stuff there, and I like your use of pics to go with the samples. That seems to add just a little something else to the overall presentation. I've tried overlapping notes, but I get a mixed result that still doesn't fully capture what I'm after. I think combining them with performance runs is going to be the trick.

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestion!

Much metta,

John


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2008)

This is one thing Audio Impressions is good at, since it can dial in the amount of slop you want with a slider.


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## madbulk (Sep 2, 2008)

However common it might be, I hadn't heard the trem idea, Evan. So thanks for sharing that.

The one thing I avoid doing, and I think it's counter intuitive enough to mention, is using short articulations as the basis in my runs. I might layer them in there but they're submerged.


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## synthetic (Sep 2, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> This is one thing Audio Impressions is good at, since it can dial in the amount of slop you want with a slider.



Did your review system show up?


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## sathyva (Sep 17, 2008)

quote : 
"Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I've tried various levels of layering, but hadn't really considered the pre-recorded runs. I have a feeling that's going to be the way to go for the most part. The only problem there is your limited to diatonic runs.
"

Hello

you can easily alter those diatonic pre-recorded runs to whatever you want if you use Melodyne. You can do every shape you need, at the tempo you need. 

all the best

sathy


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 17, 2008)

I can get runs to work generally consistently.
There are a few way to do it but the simple way for me is to create the run I want to hear with a combination of legato and stacc or spicc notes depending on definition needed then take a premade run and feather it in. This does not have to match your run btw, don't kill yourself looking for an absolute match. Just find something that starts and resembles the run you want and choose different hit points or starting notes on the way. you don't want it too clean cause you already have that with your sequenced notes.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 17, 2008)

Layering is the key to get semi-realistic runs - like Craig said, layering legato & spiccato might do it - also, try layering in tremelos.


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## Niah (Sep 18, 2008)

Craig and Fred are on the money here.

I also had great success in the past using trills.


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## MettaAudio (Sep 21, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I'm going to be doing more of this in a bit, so the suggestions are very much appreciated!


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## PolarBear (Sep 22, 2008)

For medium-fast runs I found out VSL marcatos being a better choice than staccatos (which attacks are too accentuated for a run) - and yes, legato or portamento layering possibly. See my piece "Man in a million" towards the end (having only Opus 1 I had to try without prerecorded runs, tho I'd prefer that eventually).


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## Rob (Sep 22, 2008)

but I mean slides, not portamento, like this:

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/FastRuns.mp3

each note reaches the right pitch from above or below...


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