# Buy Ben Botkin's MIDI Files!



## Soundbed (Nov 21, 2021)

Not sure if I put this in the correct forum. I just purchased Ben Botkin's MIDI files for some of his demos because he is having a half price sale. These are for educational purposes.

https://store.fortecomposeracademy.com/ 

MIDI Study Pack #1 - Commanding the Fleet​MIDI Study Pack #2 - Hillsdale​MIDI Study Pack #3 Seraphim + Taiga (Using Tallinn)​


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## Markrs (Nov 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Not sure if I put this in the correct forum. I just purchased Ben Botkin's MIDI files for some of his demos because he is having a half price sale. These are for educational purposes.
> 
> https://store.fortecomposeracademy.com/
> 
> MIDI Study Pack #1 - Commanding the Fleet​MIDI Study Pack #2 - Hillsdale​MIDI Study Pack #3 Seraphim + Taiga (Using Tallinn)​


I don't know about these so will take a look.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

!!!

omg so there is a market for this


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Not sure if I put this in the correct forum. I just purchased Ben Botkin's MIDI files for some of his demos because he is having a half price sale. These are for educational purposes.
> 
> https://store.fortecomposeracademy.com/
> 
> MIDI Study Pack #1 - Commanding the Fleet​MIDI Study Pack #2 - Hillsdale​MIDI Study Pack #3 Seraphim + Taiga (Using Tallinn)​


Which one is your favorite/which do you find most helpful?


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## Soundbed (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> !!!
> 
> omg so there is a market for this


I would enjoy paying for your MIDI, if I liked the pieces. The things that put Ben's over the top at this price:

1) PDF with "how to make it my own" suggestions
2) Video DAWcast of what I'm getting before I buy
3) He has at least one or two Video walkthroughs for free available elsewhere so I was familiar with his thoughts on the piece(s) and parts
4) Well named MIDI tracks when importing (of course I saw this after buying the first one and was happy to buy a second)
5) Knowing there was MIDI CC for Mod wheel, Expression, Volume included. Plus Velocity of course. I mention this because many free MIDI files of classical music came from notation program exports and are at lame velocities (likely from notated dynamics per section, not note per note.

Again about the price: $12.50 or so was about what I wanted to pay for one longer or two shorter pieces. I wouldn't really consider them at $25.

One thing I'm on the fence about still, is whether or not MIDI predelay would / should be used. It seems at first glance that the notes often start before the measure begins, indicating "manual" predelay rather than in the daw... this isn't my workflow (I tend to put the notes closer to "on time" in the sequencer but use predelay in the track) but whatevs, it's usable either way. 

Also the purchase process was pretty slick. The only thing I don't like about online stores is when I can't build a cart of multiple products. If I can find over $99 of stuff to buy, I tend to want to put it on PayPal credit and pay within the next 6 months this time of year. I'm often finished paying for my Black Friday purchases in June lol.


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## Soundbed (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Which one is your favorite/which do you find most helpful?


I bought Commanding the Fleet and Tillsdale and haven't really had much time to explore them yet. I'd buy the Tallin ones if I was really in love with the pieces but I am looking for ideas for TV music publishers and I think the other two fit more with what I've gotten used so far in TV music libraries (except they are more "advanced" from a MIDI orchestration perspective than what I've gotten placed, which are by and large simpler and easy for editors to cut up and use in reality TV shows for added action / tension / suspense).


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I would enjoy paying for your MIDI, if I liked the pieces. The things that put Ben's over the top at this price:
> 
> 1) PDF with "how to make it my own" suggestions
> 2) Video DAWcast of what I'm getting before I buy
> ...





Soundbed said:


> I would enjoy paying for your MIDI, if I liked the pieces. The things that put Ben's over the top at this price:
> 
> 1) PDF with "how to make it my own" suggestions
> 2) Video DAWcast of what I'm getting before I buy
> ...


This is really helpful thank you! Would you consider Template / Expression mapped / Library specific projects to be useful too?


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## Soundbed (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> !!!
> 
> omg so there is a market for this


One other thing: if you have something — either an arrangement for orchestra or a piece that was originally written for orchestra — that is public domain, I think a lot of people would like to try using it. 

In fact ... Do you have piece that might be good for a "strings demo" that I could use on several different libraries? (It could have full orchestra of course.) But not something that would get flagged by YouTube as copyright if I accidently make it sound too much like a commercial recording (which happened with my crappy Star Wars mockup and discourages me from doing commercial works). If so, I'll buy it from you today!

...

Personally I wish I had a "demo piece" that I could run several orchestral packages through to demonstrate on my YouTube channel. I now have collected a lot of them (orchestral packages) and I enjoy comparing and contrasting them. But I don't enjoy writing pieces that I cannot monetize by licensing exclusive to publishers. (In fact my TV pieces might not be the best to "demo" a library anyway; I don't write a lot of emotional legato for TV, yet that's what people on here and the FaceBook Virtual Orchestration group seem to want to hear. TV editors like my pieces with strings shorts, likely because they are easier to chop up and edit for the scene.)

Another thought — If you wanted we could also do a video collab, where you talk about stuff that seems important ... I guess this could also act as a sales tool if you want to sell more of the same (or different) MIDI pieces.

This seems like something to take to PM but I'm keeping these "brainstorm" ideas public because it seems more in keeping with the original vibe of this forum. And they're just off the cuff ideas.

~

I honestly don't have a solution to piracy; once these are in the wild it seems inevitable they'd get circulated somehow. :( ...I suppose the same is true of presets though.


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## Soundbed (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> This is really helpful thank you! Would you consider Template / Expression mapped / Library specific projects to be useful too?


Ben's are library specific which makes sense to me.

If they weren't library specific I'd be fine with that too.

Orchestration Recipes are great for non-library specific MIDI.

I don't have specific requirements for how specific the MIDI gets ... well maybe I do after some thought ... in fact I'd most often prefer it to be as generic as possible. So, for instance Ben's seems to have a specific library and the number of instruments in the specific patch like 'Ark 1 9Horn' ... this makes me consider 'divisi' type parts. Like, would you make one MIDI track if there was 3 "parts" in it that should be played poly legato? I don't know. If they're sustains fine but if they are supposed to be poly legato my general preference would be to have them split out into individual "monophonic" lines with overlaps.

Other people might want library specific files, I guess, but then that limits things to the way that instrument does stuff. I guess it depends on what people want to learn.

Are they trying to learn composition, MIDIstration, orchestration, MIDI performance techniques, how to use a specific library? I definitely think there's a (niche) market for each of these. Don't know what would sell the best. But I think Orchestration Recipes is almost universally liked. So, I'd consider these an extension of that idea but for FULL orchestra instead of a few parts at a time. (They are usually only a few parts, which is fine, but I think a lot of people want a "full orchestra" experience.)

I don't use Cubase so Ben's DAW files are useless to me. (I use S1 usually for MIDI, then ProTools for mixing sometimes.)

... wow I guess I just drank my coffee because I'm really chatty.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> One other thing: if you have something — either an arrangement for orchestra or a piece that was originally written for orchestra — that is public domain, I think a lot of people would like to try using it.
> 
> In fact ... Do you have piece that might be good for a "strings demo" that I could use on several different libraries? (It could have full orchestra of course.) But not something that would get flagged by YouTube as copyright if I accidently make it sound too much like a commercial recording (which happened with my crappy Star Wars mockup and discourages me from doing commercial works). If so, I'll buy it from you today!
> 
> ...


This all sounds really interesting! Let me think about it and I'll PM you. I have a Vivaldi piece I was working on for Miroire that was sounding really good, maybe I'll finish that one. Besides that I don't have a ton of ready to go string midi I'd wanna part with since it's mostly being used in my original stuff.

I'd def mockup some public domain stuff if there's interest - plus I wouldn't have to think about it personally or worry if it gets around the internet inevitably. I imagine that would be most useful in the form of complete projects since anyone can just grab and export the MIDI


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## LamaRose (Nov 21, 2021)

My God... first the midi, then the children!


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ben's are library specific which makes sense to me.
> 
> If they weren't library specific I'd be fine with that too.
> 
> ...


Haha no worries same! That's definitely a lot of stuff there to consider. Hmm maybe it could be worth it to do multi-DAW multi-library versions. Something with modular options and single library versions.

Boy that would be a lot of work though. I guess everything is a gamble these days though


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

Anyway I'm distracting too much from the topic.

People should go buy / discuss Ben Botkin's stuff while it's on sale!


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## hummersallad (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> !!!
> 
> omg so there is a market for this


Not everyone is as talented as you…


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## handz (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> !!!
> 
> omg so there is a market for this


Of course, this is not the only place doing this. These are actually really useful especially the stuff from Ben or Benny Oschman would be worth looking at.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

hummersallad said:


> Not everyone is as talented as you…


Eh I'm not particularly talented - no more than anyone else here. But if someone called me desperate I don't think I could really argue with them. I'm pretty useless outside of music lol. Pretty sure I made a huge mistake but I'm in way too deep now to do anything else and too poor to do anything but stay home, write, and beg devs for libraries.

For the moment I do have time though and no other goals or ambitions I really care about. I'm fortunate in that sense.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

handz said:


> Of course, this is not the only place doing this. These are actually really useful especially the stuff from Ben or Benny Oschman would be worth looking at.


I'll def check em out, thanks!


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## BenBotkin (Nov 22, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Not sure if I put this in the correct forum. I just purchased Ben Botkin's MIDI files for some of his demos because he is having a half price sale. These are for educational purposes.
> 
> https://store.fortecomposeracademy.com/
> 
> MIDI Study Pack #1 - Commanding the Fleet​MIDI Study Pack #2 - Hillsdale​MIDI Study Pack #3 Seraphim + Taiga (Using Tallinn)​


Hey, thanks for the shout-out! I saw a little boost in sales and I was curious why. (Also, this probably tells you something about my sales if a few extra sales is an observable boost) 

Also, your feedback is really tremendous! It's really helpful to hear what is or is not not helpful/valuable regarding content, price, etc.

One question: How much value do you get out of the PDF file? I could definitely streamline the process, but creating these takes some time and is one of the reason that I haven't released more study packs. I have about 5 more that are about half-way ready to go but there is some "value added" element that I haven't gotten around to creating.

But basically if I can streamline the product to only include that which is most helpful, then I can fit creating these into my work schedule easier.


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## Soundbed (Nov 22, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Hey, thanks for the shout-out! I saw a little boost in sales and I was curious why. (Also, this probably tells you something about my sales if a few extra sales is an observable boost)
> 
> Also, your feedback is really tremendous! It's really helpful to hear what is or is not not helpful/valuable regarding content, price, etc.
> 
> ...


Okay the PDF file mostly helps me FEEL like I got value. It's well put together, shows your sense of humor and knowledge and gives me some ideas but ... I guess it's not what I _really_ want.

What I really want (and it's so hard to get on VI-C or anywhere) is to continue practicing compositional development.

In other words, how do I choose the best notes AFTER the first 30 seconds of Commanding The Fleet?

I might have been able to get that far (about 30 seconds in), with my own writing. It's basically a call and a response. A theme and a variation, of sorts. And then it feels like's going to repeat, but it keeps evolving, and turns around for about 15 more seconds, then at 0:47 we hear the original theme begin. But I'm hearing new things in the main melody plus the new parts ... and by 1:10 we start a new section and I start to feel like I've lost track of how many things you've written and the more seconds that pass the more I think I'll simply continue writing my 2 minute TV cues that barely evolve (musically) past what you wrote in the first 30 seconds. I'll simply write that 3 times, at three intensity levels (AAA structure) with some transitions, and it will get published and get used on TV but I'll not grow as a composer.

If you're NOT going to spend time trying to teach me how to write better, then Orchestration Recipes [henceforth 'OR'] is a great model for how detailed the PDF needs to be: not very "detailed," but extremely concise.

The descriptions in OR are brief and to the point.

That's all we need.

He'll write something like "the flutes are not the star of the show here, they are playing backup fiddle ... er, backup flutes to the violin melody" — OK, he never wrote that! I completely made it up on the spot. But that _type _of description tips me off to a few things, including what to write, which dynamics to choose and also how to "mix" the parts when the time comes.

~

However ... what I'd really love is tools to help me grow not only as a "MIDI orchestrator" (or possibly even as an "orchestrator") but as a composer. And to me that means better development ideas.

Even sharing (brief) stories of what goes through your head as you write might be helpful or inspiring.

For Commanding The Fleet, I think breaking it into little digestible sections (incl transitions) in the PDF could be a nice start...

Intro - we start with strings and blah blah, I was trying to create a picture of [something] so I decided to (whatever)
0:25 - this section is a bit of an answer to the first theme but this time it's yada yadda
0:41 - this is the first of three short transitions sections. when I'm writing these I (something interesting) and we also do (such and such)

Theme restatement with variation
0:47 - we restate the theme but add some (stuff) in order to (accomplish something). Also notice the (important thing to notice)
1:04 here is the second little turnaround what's-it where we (do something)

Big section 2
1:10 big new section, profound knowledge dropped. flutes and choir and who has short notes and who gets longs notes
1:23 something about how the notes were chosen and we are returning to something
1:38 but not yet! we have our third little turnaround to harken back to the main theme

Big section 3
1:44 when we restate here we did something something
2:23 and scene

You probably do all this in the video that is already free ... 

... but I haven't watched that video in forever, and the whole point of having a PDF would be to get a bunch of info "at a glance" and potentially offline, rather than scrolling through a long video trying to find some spoken words (or even words on screen).

~

Short of "compositional development" lessons, another thought is sort of dividing a piece this "big" into little sections and giving us tips on HOW to write in that style or accomplish that (again sort of like OR but in the context of a larger piece).

Example:

from 1:23 -1:37 you do this little thing and everything feels like it's falling down ... it's the storm receding ... maybe a ray of sunshine is appearing, seas are calming. what is happening here tonally?

I'll look at the MIDI at some point but is the key changing? or is it my imagination?

...it _feels_ like we moved into another key in the previous section, and we're moving back to the original key, but as I listen I'm not sure if we are moving toward a third key or if we definitely left the first key at all.

(Obviously I should stop typing and start studying, but I'm telling myself that this little exercise in typing is for a greater good, lol!)

I think a LOT of VI-C folks would be interested in learning how to do little transitions like this one from from 1:23 -1:37 in Commanding The Fleet.

But ... and bear with me folks ... I can't be the only one who feels like studying one piece at a time to learn one little bit of one larger technique is maybe not the best way to learn how to write ... meaning: do we listen to every song we can possibly remember to find a section that is remotely similar to this, see if there's a score or maybe try to learn it by ear and then try to figure out what's similar and different — all in the hopes of eventually (weeks later) deriving some general principles for creating that effect? I'm sure that's how many great composers learned! And yet, it is the Information Age. We honestly expect to be able to "learn kung fu" by plugging into the Matrix. I know there's some simple. general. rules. in there. (I know it.) Something that could help me feel more comfortable trying to bridge the section before 1:23 into the section after 1:37. But ... as I type, I'm not sure what it is.

So ... It's tough to know what I'm trying to ask for... Because if I knew the answer I'd simply tell you how to explain what it is I don't know. 

In this case I know a bit about what I don't know. But not enough to know what to watch for in the midi to learn what it is to learn, so I don't even know how to learn _the thing I know I don't (yet) know_.

Clear as mud, right? 

I mean, I know how to teach several things that I CAN do, on other topics. So, I know there's a way to explain the things you're doing compositionally. Concisely. But I don't know exactly how to explain what I want to learn because I still need to learn it.

~

OK. Super simple. It has to do with choosing notes.

That's really what I want to learn.

Personally, I can choose rhythms, but my head is full of rules to remember (and rules to break) about keys and melodies and counterpoint and modes and non-modal scales ... so much music theory "clutter" in my brain that it trips me up when I try to "develop" my musical ideas. I have trouble trying to get from here to there, musically. Fluently.

THAT's what I want the PDF to teach me.

For $12.

Okay I'm trying to make someone laugh. 

But anyways. Happy November everyone. It'll be my birthday soon. I've been very chatty today. I should go back to work. <3


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## BenBotkin (Nov 22, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Okay the PDF file mostly helps me FEEL like I got value. It's well put together, shows your sense of humor and knowledge and gives me some ideas but ... I guess it's not what I _really_ want.
> 
> What I really want (and it's so hard to get on VI-C or anywhere) is to continue practicing compositional development.
> 
> ...



This is actually really helpful. Thank you for writing it--It's a long comment obviously but I want to read it a second time tomorrow to ponder what some solutions might be because I think there are a lot of good and relevant thoughts here. 

But yeah, knowing how to choose the right notes... 

Have you checked out Mike Verta's stuff? He is all about choosing and developing notes. I actually haven't checkout out any of his courses for his free videos on YT are great and I get a lot from them.


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## Soundbed (Nov 23, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> This is actually really helpful. Thank you for writing it--It's a long comment obviously but I want to read it a second time tomorrow to ponder what some solutions might be because I think there are a lot of good and relevant thoughts here.
> 
> But yeah, knowing how to choose the right notes...
> 
> Have you checked out Mike Verta's stuff? He is all about choosing and developing notes. I actually haven't checkout out any of his courses for his free videos on YT are great and I get a lot from them.


Yes I’ve gotten a couple of Mike’s courses. What’s (sometimes) missing is the concise aspect. They are great but you’re kind of on his time schedule to roll out relevant ideas. That said, it is important to hear musical examples.

I suppose a “web page” or similar slightly interactive format could be best … again like OR. Where there’s a few words, then a quick audio example and score.

Personally I’m trying to get better at moving through keys lately. A lot of TV music is intentionally in one key (it helps with editing). I’m looking to build skills that put me ahead of AI compositional tools. Now that I’ve said that, I’ll bet an AI could learn to move through keys someday. Ack, the horror. 

But yeah. 

There’s lots to learn.


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## Pier-V (Nov 23, 2021)

+1 Not gonna lie, this thread is pretty interesting and the OP is showing a commendable effort to this cause. As @dhmusic , I had no idea there was a market for MIDI packs.

Also, given that @BenBotkin is reading, I just wanted to say I absolutely love your voice leading and the strong modal influences in your harmonic writing. I know this isn't constructive criticism and clogs the thread a bit BUT WHATEVER, it was on my to do list from a looong time - I just _had_ to do it


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

Agreed with Nathan. Turning 30 seconds of something pretty solid into three minutes of dynamic, evolving music is a tall hurdle.

It's the difference between establishing a mood (across 30 seconds) and telling a story (across three minutes).


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## BenBotkin (Nov 23, 2021)

Pier-V said:


> +1 Not gonna lie, this thread is pretty interesting and the OP is showing a commendable effort to this cause. As @dhmusic , I had no idea there was a market for MIDI packs.
> 
> Also, given that @BenBotkin is reading, I just wanted to say I absolutely love your voice leading and the strong modal influences in your harmonic writing. I know this isn't constructive criticism and clogs the thread a bit BUT WHATEVER, it was on my to do list from a looong time - I just _had_ to do it


Thanks so much for your kind words! It's a big encouragement.


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## Soundbed (Nov 23, 2021)

Another place that has courses everyone here seems to almost universally enjoy (because @BenBotkin you also sell courses) is https://filmmusicnotes.com/ 

The above is one place where I've actually learned things.

I've learned thing, in part, because it's new material to me, and it's rarely taught, and it's taught well.

The point of this post was that the format strikes the right balance between lecture, exercises and and examples.

But ... it's quite a distance from "buy MIDI files" so maybe it's too off topic?

What I don't want is more basic "theory" or too much "analysis" without making it practical.

I want practical, memorable ways to approach writing and making musical works.

(I'll move the rest of today's yammering into a new thread entirely.)


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## BenBotkin (Nov 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> Agreed with Nathan. Turning 30 seconds of something pretty solid into three minutes of dynamic, evolving music is a tall hurdle.
> 
> It's the difference between establishing a mood (across 30 seconds) and telling a story (across three minutes).


Mmm. Yeah, that's really what it's all about.

I get a fair number of questions from people asking me (basically): "how do I get out of the four-chord, verse/chorus song structure and into more symphonic, free form development?" Is that along the lines of what you're interested in, or are you specifically interested in how to tell a strong story in a song format?


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Mmm. Yeah, that's really what it's all about.
> 
> I get a fair number of questions from people asking me (basically): "how do I get out of the four-chord, verse/chorus song structure and into more symphonic, free form development?" Is that along the lines of what you're interested in, or are you specifically interested in how to tell a strong story in a song format?


If I think about them sequentially, developing good habits and skills for the former could come before the latter.


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## damcry (Nov 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Not sure if I put this in the correct forum. I just purchased Ben Botkin's MIDI files for some of his demos because he is having a half price sale. These are for educational purposes.
> 
> https://store.fortecomposeracademy.com/
> 
> MIDI Study Pack #1 - Commanding the Fleet​MIDI Study Pack #2 - Hillsdale​MIDI Study Pack #3 Seraphim + Taiga (Using Tallinn)​


… and so now, after getting Pack#3, I feel the need to buy OT Tallinn …. 
Thought my GAS was gone ………


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## Soundbed (Nov 23, 2021)

damcry said:


> … and so now, after getting Pack#3, I feel the need to buy OT Tallinn ….
> Thought my GAS was gone ………


One reason I didn't buy pack number three. Yet. 



BenBotkin said:


> Mmm. Yeah, that's really what it's all about.
> 
> I get a fair number of questions from people asking me (basically): "how do I get out of the four-chord, verse/chorus song structure and into more symphonic, free form development?" Is that along the lines of what you're interested in, or are you specifically interested in how to tell a strong story in a song format?


(this was directed at @Evans but I want to answer too haha) ...coming from writing TV cues, some (but not) are also considered underscore ... library cues for TV need to have the same "emotional quality" from beginning to end. It's like a requirement (for those who don't know.)

Again; this is for editing purposes. The editors need to be able to cut into and out of each section of your cue for a given scene, without feeling like your music is suddenly doing "a different scene". That's totally frustrating for the editor (understandably). They want the (often "boring") footage to come alive when they slap your music on it, but not really change mood or vibe or than to keep people watching until they, the editor wants to switch to a new segment / sequence / vibe / scene.

Ergo, a lot of my stuff ends up being basically AAA or maybe AAbA structure, with rising intensity levels, and that is what usually works just fine.

To grow, I want to learn and practice how to express a singular emotional quality without repeating "the same notes". I've heard some really good TV cues in a variety of styles from investigative tension to dramedy that do a great job of keeping the emotional quality consistent but not repeating "the notes" over and over.

At the same time, the music needs to constantly move forward, pushing the narrative. There's a story being told, on screen, and we need to keep moving the story forward. But not by changing emotional qualities.

The same principles should apply to those scoring to picture. If an emotional tone doesn't change, you'll need to be able to maintain _some kinda vibe _until it changes. I think this is probably why a lot of scripted dramas (including films) use drones ... it's an "easy" way to maintain tension without changing "tone".

And to be even more specific, as a TV composer we want our cues to get used for long periods of time. We get paid from PROs based in part on the number of seconds our cues get "performed". So, we want more 3 minute placements (even though they're rare) as opposed to 10 second placements.

How to get those long placements? Don't take people out of the scene but also don't get too boring.

Now, I totally recognise Commanding The Fleet (et al) isn't really underscore.

So, learning all this in a more symphonic storytelling context would be great / fine. But I'd be working backwards to figure out what I how to apply lessons to "simpler" underscore cues.

By the way, @BenBotkin are we allowed to post examples of "Commanding The Fleet" with different instruments, like with Soaring Strings but Cinematic Studio Woodwinds (seeing as I don't have Berlin Woodwinds)? I didn't really see what I'd call a "license" in the PDF and maybe I missed it somewhere. In other words, now that I bought the pack what rights do I have to "broadcast" or "publish" as it were, if any? Am I supposed to keep all my audio to myself, or could I share a DAWcast of my own, swapping out libraries — for fun and education?


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

This conversation makes me want to focus the rest of my life on a new genre of emotionless music.

But, like, *so *emotionless that it becomes artistic and oddly full of emotion. It's like a black hole that fills you with awe.

EDIT: Nah, I'll just keep buying wooden flutes for my doots.


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## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

@Soundbed have you considered searching for a private tutor? It seems that your skills are advanced enough and your needs specific enough that there might be a fantastic fit for you out there without waiting for someone to build up new written or video content.


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## Soundbed (Nov 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> @Soundbed have you considered searching for a private tutor? It seems that your skills are advanced enough and your needs specific enough that there might be a fantastic fit for you out there without waiting for someone to build up new written or video content.


Yes. I’ve considered it. Over the past couple days. While I’ve been writing these posts. I don’t know where to begin. And I’m not sure what to pay (fairly). I really don’t want a master’s in music. Or do I? lol


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## Soundbed (Nov 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> This conversation makes me want to focus the rest of my life on a new genre of emotionless music.
> 
> But, like, *so *emotionless that it becomes artistic and oddly full of emotion. It's like a black hole that fills you with awe.
> 
> EDIT: Nah, I'll just keep buying wooden flutes for my doots.


For some reason that made me think of music for Vulcans.


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## BenBotkin (Nov 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> By the way, @BenBotkin are we allowed to post examples of "Commanding The Fleet" with different instruments, like with Soaring Strings but Cinematic Studio Woodwinds (seeing as I don't have Berlin Woodwinds)? I didn't really see what I'd call a "license" in the PDF and maybe I missed it somewhere. In other words, now that I bought the pack what rights do I have to "broadcast" or "publish" as it were, if any? Am I supposed to keep all my audio to myself, or could I share a DAWcast of my own, swapping out libraries — for fun and education?


Oh, I'll need to check, but I may not have the disclaimer on that MIDI pack, since it's my first one. The other packs have a disclaimer that says something to the effect of: "this MIDI is used for educational purposes and not for repurposing in your own music". 

That said, I'm fine if you share your "version" of the track in a manner like you as describing (as long as appropriate attribution is there, obviously). I'd be curious to see what someone does with different VSTS/FX, etc. 

I should probably consider my language to see just how wide open I want this to be in the future...


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 23, 2021)

Hey @Soundbed development in music is a great topic!

In classical music -- from where the bastard art of film music came from --, we find the following:

1. The binary form was used a lot until the Baroque, and after that, only rarely.

2. The Theme and Variations form was always present in music and never stopped being popular and productive. Haydn composed a few movements with a twist on this form: the Double T & V, in which there are 2 themes, and then the variations (low in number) also go Theme 1 then Theme 2. I think of thematic film music as a free-form N-ary Theme and Variations in which the form is restricted to the story being told. I mean, the basic skill the composer must have in order to write thematic film music... is theme and variations. This is why it is helpful to write variations and developments on your basic material -- first without thinking of its order, just brainstorming what can come out of a theme -- and then later figure out where each variation fits, when it does. Any composer who masters theme and variation can easily be a great film composer, I think.

3. The ternary form gradually proved very effective, especially in its ABA variety. One needs to find a B section that is a contrast, but also, related to the A section through some kind of unifying principle (otherwise it would feel like a change of subject). A great exercise is finding what the unifying principle is for each masterpiece in the repertoire. Then when the A section returns, it is heard through new lenses and with a new meaning (even in the few cases it has no variation from the first exposition), just because it comes after the B section that helped enlighten the subject matter.

4. The Sonata form, a special case of the ABA ternary form in which the B section must be a development section that talks about the 2 themes present in the A section, became particularly successful and interesting. Beethoven (master of both variation and sonata form) figured out he could continue speaking after the reexposition -- after all, if we are developing 2 themes, the sky is the limit. Beethoven also introduced the developing variation, one that doesn't need to follow just the harmonic structure of the theme, but can take aspects of the theme to new ground -- this invention is fundamental to film music.

5. The best paid class by Mike Verta teaches that leitmotifs are supposed to be developed, not repeated -- and he shows how Williams does this, changing the character and the clothing and the tempo and the orchestration and the harmony of a theme according to the events in the story. The ability to develop a theme comes from a great knowledge of compositional devices, which Verta always emphasizes -- but of course, it also comes from invention, of which you find examples in the most innovative composers of the classical repertoire, especially after 1800. Lesser film composers seem to lack this developmental ability.

6. My favourite examples of Theme and Variations:
a. The finale of the 9th symphony.
b. Mendelssohn's Variations Sérieuses.
c. Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini.
d. Strauss' Don Quixote.

7. Modernist composers invented ways of developing music that do not rely on the harmonies or the motives of the themes, and this is extremely interesting, although more to the ears of those who are able to decipher it, than to the general public.

8. Whenever a composer cedes to forces that tell him "do not modulate", he creates boring music, and this is why nobody listens to library music and game music. Oh well, nobody should anyway -- it is a tremendously narrow musical perspective. Didn't I just give you the reasons for this? How can any subtle composer give up such important tools as modulation and the actual semblance of a musical discourse? Library music and game music are just creators of terribly bad habits, and this will remain so until a technology is found that brings modulation and discourse back to these situations.


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## Soundbed (Nov 23, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> Didn't I just give you the reasons for this? How can any subtle composer give up such important tools as modulation and the actual semblance of a musical discourse?


Hi Nando!

Which Mike Verta class? I have about 7-10 of his classes but I don't think I got the Williams ones yet — are they the ones about leimotif?


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Hi Nando!
> 
> Which Mike Verta class?


"Scoring 1"

...in which Verta briefly comments on each appearance -- scratch that, development -- of a certain theme in a little film called Star Wars, filling you with awe as you witness the fiery invention in that music.

On YouTube there's a JW class at a university. Asked about advice for young film composers, he answered basically, don't worry about the filmic aspects, worry about learning music composition -- if you become good enough at common music composition, they will call you to do films. That sequence in the Verta class shows just how JW developmental ability was crucial for Star Wars, so that seems to be what JW wants us to learn.

The only problem with that theory is that directors in general are today very ignorant about music and they understand one of these ambient cues without modulation, timbre-oriented... -- but don't understand the importance of a musical discourse parallel to the story in the film, which explains the thing we hear today in most American film.


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## Soundbed (Nov 24, 2021)

Okay I’ve got most of the instruments in Commanding The Fleet mapped to what I own, (partly because I own Ark 1) but the percussion is the least easy because I don’t have Berlin Percussion or CP. Making “shareable” MIDI that works for multiple percussion packages is probably more complicated than melodic articulations. (Bell tree, snare roll, piatti, and so on.) Even the timpani seems interesting because some of my timpani packages have similar notes mapped to different octaves it seems (AROOF). 

The CineBrass was also interesting. Because it had a combo of super shorts and long sustains, I chose two different 8Dio Century Brass articulations. I actually wonder in retrospect if a performance patch like Angry Brass or … well anyway, it’s fun to play with someone else’s midi!


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## BenBotkin (Nov 24, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Okay I’ve got most of the instruments in Commanding The Fleet mapped to what I own, (partly because I own Ark 1) but the percussion is the least easy because I don’t have Berlin Percussion or CP. Making “shareable” MIDI that works for multiple percussion packages is probably more complicated than melodic articulations. (Bell tree, snare roll, piatti, and so on.) Even the timpani seems interesting because some of my timpani packages have similar notes mapped to different octaves it seems (AROOF).
> 
> The CineBrass was also interesting. Because it had a combo of super shorts and long sustains, I chose two different 8Dio Century Brass articulations. I actually wonder in retrospect if a performance patch like Angry Brass or … well anyway, it’s fun to play with someone else’s midi!


Curious to hear how it sounds with your instruments/finesse! (If you ever feel like sharing)


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## BenBotkin (Nov 27, 2021)

Evans said:


> This conversation makes me want to focus the rest of my life on a new genre of emotionless music.
> 
> But, like, *so *emotionless that it becomes artistic and oddly full of emotion. It's like a black hole that fills you with awe.
> 
> EDIT: Nah, I'll just keep buying wooden flutes for my doots.


I've had some recent briefs for tracks that are basically "make it generic". Which is just... the worst. 

I gotta say, @Soundbed , you may be tired of the type of track you need to write to licensing but it's definitely a skill of it's own to meet all the parameters for the tracks you mention and keep it interesting, so mad respect. It would probably drive me crazy. After four bars I'd be like TIME TO MODULATE OR SOMETHING

I might be a little ADHD musically...


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## Soundbed (Nov 27, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> I've had some recent briefs for tracks that are basically "make it generic". Which is just... the worst.
> 
> I gotta say, @Soundbed , you may be tired of the type of track you need to write to licensing but it's definitely a skill of it's own to meet all the parameters for the tracks you mention and keep it interesting, so mad respect. It would probably drive me crazy. After four bars I'd be like TIME TO MODULATE OR SOMETHING
> 
> I might be a little ADHD musically...


Oh man yeah it's been an "interesting" skillset to learn for sure. But I want to go the other direction and get fluent with those modulations.

I need to finish some more percussion and then I'll share where I'm at with the recreation.


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## Soundbed (Nov 28, 2021)

Ok I have a video of my first mix ready to share. Is it okay to share this on YouTube, @BenBotkin ?

 

(unlisted for now... EDIT: Public now, needs a Thumbnail image)


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## BenBotkin (Nov 29, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ok I have a video of my first mix ready to share. Is it okay to share this on YouTube, @BenBotkin ?
> 
> 
> 
> (unlisted for now...)



What a great video! I love what you did here. Really interesting to hear my music interpreted by someone else--it's the same, but... different. Some really nice moments in the mix, as well. 

Feel free to post! I'll probably share it around myself after it goes live. 

To answer one of the observations in the video: Those hi ww arps/runs would probably be challenging to replicate with a different library. Those patches ("runs-transitions") are super fast and I often use them almost at a gesture-level in a context like this. The timing can be sloppier in a context like this than almost any part... and to a degree, you want that. When I can, I try to perform those lines in w/o quantizing, since it really flattens the performance.


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## Soundbed (Nov 29, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> What a great video! I love what you did here. Really interesting to hear my music interpreted by someone else--it's the same, but... different. Some really nice moments in the mix, as well.
> 
> Feel free to post! I'll probably share it around myself after it goes live.
> 
> To answer one of the observations in the video: Those hi ww arps/runs would probably be challenging to replicate with a different library. Those patches ("runs-transitions") are super fast and I often use them almost at a gesture-level in a context like this. The timing can be sloppier in a context like this than almost any part... and to a degree, you want that. When I can, I try to perform those lines in w/o quantizing, since it really flattens the performance.


Thanks! Let me upload a thumbnail image before sharing it.


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## Soundbed (Nov 29, 2021)

Ok @BenBotkin it's ready to go now! Thanks again!


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

Oh, also @Soundbed , those VSL tubular bells I'm using in this piece are the ones that come with the Kontakt factory library (I think they are the wooden ones), so you probably do have them, actually.


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## Soundbed (Nov 30, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Oh, also @Soundbed , those VSL tubular bells I'm using in this piece are the ones that come with the Kontakt factory library (I think they are the wooden ones), so you probably do have them, actually.


oh hahaha! I didn't even think to try those lolol


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> oh hahaha! I didn't even think to try those lolol


I know! But why would you? I used them back in the day back when I had almost no orchestral perc, but I still use them because I haven't found anything I like better. I think the cymbals in there are pretty good too, if I recall.


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## muziksculp (Nov 30, 2021)

Hi @BenBotkin ,

I purchased your Film Scoring for Beginners course yesterday. I'm looking forward to learn a lot from this course. (THANKS) 

I have a simple question for you : When do you use Sustain Strings Patches in your compositions ?

i.e. if you play a chord using Violins 1 Sustains, what exactly does that translate to in the real acoustic orchestral environment ? Since each note of the chord is played by a section, would that be some type of make believe divisi string writing, although it is not ? 

Basically, when, or why should I choose to use Sustain Strings that play multiple notes to play chordal passages in my composition ?

Any general feedback about how/when to use Sustain String patches when a library offers Legato patches as well.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## handz (Nov 30, 2021)

This thread became one of the most interesting threads here in a long time, please continue guys!  Over the years the discussions here moved more or less to just fapping over new libraries than talking about music theory, techniques tips, and tricks, but I am sure that many people here still like to read about this too.


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @BenBotkin ,
> 
> I purchased your Film Scoring for Beginners course yesterday. I'm looking forward to learn a lot from this course. (THANKS)
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for your purchase! I really appreciate it, and hope it's helpful to you. 

Re: legatos and sustains: some thoughts:

*SUSTAINS/DIVISI/STACKING*

You are correct, that, generally speaking, if you play a chord with a sus string patch you will be stacking the number of players. So an 18 player 1st vlns section playing a triad would technically create the stacked sound of 48 players. A few libraries have divisi options specifically for this reason, but there are a couple ways to combat this without having dedicated divisi patches:

One is to use a smaller sized ensemble: say, using the 2nd violins instead of the 1st when you'll have a lot of violin notes at once. Or use a library with smaller ensembles--for example, Berlin strings uses smaller strings sections than Hollywood strings. Another trick is to modify the mic balance for a section if you have the option. It eats a ton of ram, but with CSS I will sometimes boost the close/spot mics in a blend and it makes a raspier, more intimate sound. It sounds "smaller."

But at the end of the day, stacking is not something I consider a huge issue. Voicing, solid dynamics/swells and part writing solve most issues. If the end result is a slightly thicker sounds that I would hear with a real ensemble, that's usually an acceptable "problem" to me if everything else sounds good, since my end goal is great sounding music over what, technically, is most realistic in a live setting.

*WHEN TO USE SUS/LEG PATCHES*

Since sus patches and legato patches are usually the same expect for being poly vs monophonic (and when you have a note overlap and legato transition sound is triggered), I will typically uses sus patches for most sustained writing unless I particularly want the effect that the legato transitions provide: so I only use legato patches where there is a lot of fluid, featured motion.

I will commonly have a melodic line be a legato patch, and have slow moving chords around it be simple sus patches. In the first 30 seconds of Commanding the Fleet, I think this is all I have. Many common string swells/chord parts don't even connect to the next chord, so legato is moot. Also, if the motion is slow enough in a background chord, sometimes a little bit of note overlap is not a problem with some sus background chords. Some libraries, like CSS, have sus patches with a faily long release tail, which is really nice for slow loving chords, as long as you have enough gap between midi notes so it doesn't get too blurry.

Heck, sometimes I will write a whole track and the strings will be nothing but a CSS whole ensemble sus patch, playing slow chords with a piano or woodwinds featured over the top of it.

I do like to use legato patches for the melody line, and for key inner-moving part lines. If a line moves a lot like an individual voice, I will probably program it's own legato part. Otherwise, a basic sus patch is simpler and faster to use and usually just fine.

Occasionally I will have every note in a string chord on it's own legato patch/track, but I only do that in situations where I particularly want the effect of the legato transitions, like:

(a) fast, counterpuntal stuff (like in 0:47-1:00 of Commanding the Fleet)
(b) I need the chord to "fall" or rise in unison is a really slick way. Sometimes I'll want to use a special transition effect (like a portamento) that only exists in the legato patches, and so the entire chords will soup-ily flow.
(c) It's a particularly featured chord, like a high string triad with important sustained motion.

But, again, legato is only for important motion in lines with sustained, overlapping lines. It's for the "betweens."

*ATTACKS AND RELEASES ARE ALMOST AS IMPORTANT AS LEGATOS-- MORESO, IN SOME CONTEXTS*

"Legato" is sexy and gets all the attention, but IMO attacks and releases in sustain patches are basically just as important. If legato is the middle, then attacks are the beginning, and releases are the ending.

A few years ago I did number of demos for Miroslav Philharmonik 2, which has zero true legato. One of the things I learned was that legatos are overemphasized and overused. This is a very old-school library, and not one I really consider a peer to modern strings libraries, but take a listen to this track I wrote with zero legato patches (halfway through the piece there were some pre-recorded slow trill phrases in the viola range that are legato, but I could not control them, and they don't play melody). Everything featured/melodic is built up of different shorts/longs :



Here is one I wrote for Adventure Strings (by Musical Sampling), with no legatos until 49 seconds in:




Berlin Strings is one library with legato that does not impress me, but there are tons of different types of sustain patches with different attacks and some of those are very valuable and I will do some very aggressive sustained melody writing with just those.


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## milford59 (Nov 30, 2021)

I have bought 2 of the MIDI study packs - It took me about 4 seconds to decide to buy them…. I am a Cubase user, so to get a pdf and a Cubase project that I can study in my own time for $12.50 each is an absolute no-brainer - and if I learn ONE thing that will help me in my quest to become a better hobbyist composer (and I’m sure that I will) then it will be money well spent. Thank you Ben.


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## muziksculp (Nov 30, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> Hey, thanks for your purchase! I really appreciate it, and hope it's helpful to you.
> 
> Re: legatos and sustains: some thoughts:
> 
> ...



Hi @BenBotkin ,

Thank You so much for your detailed, and informative reply to my question.  

I really appreciate your time. 

So, one more detail that I need to clarify about the way to use String Sustains.

i.e. The harmonic fabric of a string ensemble is usually divided over the various string sections of the orchestra. So, I'm guessing that I would not be playing chordal figures with i.e. Violin 1 Sustain patch, but rather the chord is played by the entire string ensemble sections, (vls 1, vls 2, vla, cel, db). Each playing a specific note, or doubling a note on another octave, or in unison. So would it be safe to conclude that the Sustains of each string section, i.e. Vlns1, or Celli are better to be used monophonically ? 

The only time I think I would use sustains polyphonically is when I use a full string ensemble patch, where the various string section families are represented over the full range of the keyboard. 

Oh.. Regarding Berlin Strings Legatos, I haven't used them much, I'm curious what is it about them you do not like, or that don't impress you, compared to other String Library Legatos ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Nov 30, 2021)

@BenBotkin ,

I don't use Cubase, I'm a Studio One Pro user. 

Do you have plans to include Studio One Pro songs, as well to these midi Study Pack tutorials ? 

And If I purchase one of the Midi Study Packs, what would be the shortcoming for me, since I don't use Cubase ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @BenBotkin ,
> 
> I don't use Cubase, I'm a Studio One Pro user.
> 
> ...


You should be able to import the MIDI files into any DAW without issue. @Soundbed imported into Studio one, with, as far as I can tell, no issue. 

If you load the Cubase projects, I believe there is a little bit more Cubase-level volume automation in the cases of study packs 1&2, and you can also see any EQ/ing FX I have loaded. Which is not much, in either case. So I think being a Cubase users adds like, 10-15% more value.


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> i.e. The harmonic fabric of a string ensemble is usually divided over the various string sections of the orchestra. So, I'm guessing that I would not be playing chordal figures with i.e. Violin 1 Sustain patch, but rather the chord is played by the entire string ensemble sections, (vls 1, vls 2, vla, cel, db). Each playing a specific note, or doubling a note on another octave, or in unison. So would it be safe to conclude that the Sustains of each string section, i.e. Vlns1, or Celli are better to be used monophonically ?
> 
> The only time I think I would use sustains polyphonically is when I use a full string ensemble patch, where the various string section families are represented over the full range of the keyboard.
> 
> Oh.. Regarding Berlin Strings Legatos, I haven't used them much, I'm curious what is it about them you do not like, or that don't impress you, compared to other String Library Legatos ?


So, If I have a high chord has particularly close voicing (eg. a Dm6) I may want to have all four notes represented fully in the violins--maybe with the lowest note in violas. So in a live context this would typically be divisi'd between vlns 1 and 2.

So there are a handful of occasions where you might use 2-3 notes in either a violas sus or violins sus patch when filling out a chord.

But often, especially when your voicing is really open, you are right, you could get by with most of the work being done by each section playing a monophonic legato patch. But even then I like to have some additional patches ready to go for when I need closer voicing in one region.

For full/sus/lyrical string writing, CSS is my go-to, so I usually have a CSS string lineup like this in my template, and I usually use them like this:

- Vln 1 Leg (main/melody)
- Vln 1 leg (b) (when I want to do legato divisi)
- Vln 2 Leg (melody 2)
- Vln 2 Leg (b) (additional legato divisi)
- Vln 2 Sus (will sometimes play 2-3 note chords--I like vln2 sus for chords more b/c it's thinner)
- Violas Leg (primary, melody)
- Violas Leg (b) (legato divisi)
- Viola Sus (will sometimes play 2-3 note chords)
- Celli Leg (main,meldoy)
- Celli Sus (will sometimes play 1-2 notes, almost never 3)
- Basses Leg (usually I don't need more than one note in the bass)
- Whole Ens Sus (will use for full chords sometimes, will sometimes use just use an octave for bass lines)

I will basically never use ALL of these patches at once, but they are there so I have options depending on how I want to voice or assign legato. (Also, this uses a ton of ram, so often in Cubase I will use the "disable instrument track" option if I'm not using the additional legato patches.)


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## muziksculp (Nov 30, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> So, If I have a high chord has particularly close voicing (eg. a Dm6) I may want to have all four notes represented fully in the violins--maybe with the lowest note in violas. So in a live context this would be typically be divisi'd between vlns 1 and 2.
> 
> So there are a handful of occasions where you might use a 2-3 notes in violas sus or violins, sus patch when filling out a chord.
> 
> ...


@BenBotkin ,

Thank You very much.

Your explanation helped a lot, and is very clear. I always had a bit of a grey area with how best to approach writing for strings with Sustain vs Legato patches, and the point of using closed voicings, i.e. for higher chordal figures makes a lot of sense as you stated if you want to play a Dm6 chord, i.e. vlns 1, vlns 2 (could play double stops), and lowest voice played by Vlas.

The way you have CSS setup also makes a lot of sense, and offers a lot of ways/flavors to voice chords.

Oh.. I also think you can Purge these CSS patches from RAM, so they only load the notes you play into the tracks.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @BenBotkin ,
> 
> Oh.. I also think you can Purge these CSS patches from RAM, so they only load the notes you play into the tracks.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can! However, I rarely purge tracks that I'm still playing live with a lot. I find that when I play an unloaded note on a purged track that I experience a little delay.


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

milford59 said:


> I have bought 2 of the MIDI study packs - It took me about 4 seconds to decide to buy them…. I am a Cubase user, so to get a pdf and a Cubase project that I can study in my own time for $12.50 each is an absolute no-brainer - and if I learn ONE thing that will help me in my quest to become a better hobbyist composer (and I’m sure that I will) then it will be money well spent. Thank you Ben.


It's my pleasure! Thanks for your support!


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## BenBotkin (Nov 30, 2021)

handz said:


> This thread became one of the most interesting threads here in a long time, please continue guys!  Over the years the discussions here moved more or less to just fapping over new libraries than talking about music theory, techniques tips, and tricks, but I am sure that many people here still like to read about this too.


Glad it's interesting to you! And I don't mind it staying active for selfish reasons. I mean, the name of the thread is literally "buy Ben Botkin's stuff".


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## Evans (Dec 8, 2021)

Lovely atmosphere on your Andea demo, Ben!








Andea by Richard Harvey


South and Central American plucked strings, wind instruments and percussion.




www.orchestraltools.com





I'm not in my studio at the moment, but on some cheaper headphones it sounds like a pretty good use of various registers without becoming overwhelming, too.


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## BenBotkin (Jan 16, 2022)

Evans said:


> Lovely atmosphere on your Andea demo, Ben!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, thanks @Evans ! Only just saw this.


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