# Cubase 8.5 and orchestral templates - best practise?



## ZeroZero (Oct 10, 2016)

I have been away from my DAW for some years (really since Cubase 5) and have recently updated my system (to Cubase 8.5 and updated all VSTS). I am currently in the business of creating orchestral templates before starting on a big project. I have several orchestral libraries, East West stuff, BFD3, some VSL, Kontakt, Halion, Absynth all of Spectrasonics, several pianos plus more - quite a good collection.

The kind of music I am targeting is modern 'cinematic' with orchestras.
I have set up two orchestral templates one for Halion Symphonic and another for East West Orchestra. Both of these have my custom expression maps.

I am wondering if orchestral templates are the way to go? Would it be better to create a whole bucket of presets and load them as required? I dont really need to emulate a concert hall, (sound stage mixing wise) and will also be using a lot of Omnisphere type sounds with the orchestra. What is the best work flow?

BTW I work in Surround 5.1

An alternative workflow design would be the mega template. I notice that you can now 'disable' tracks in Cubase as well as freeze them. You can also hide tracks. What is the best way to organise this? Is it possible to have one gigantic template with all parts loaded and hidden with little or no load on CPU? what is best practice here please?

I tried to disable a whole orchestral template, but I found that the project still loaded slow - meaning that the wav files presumably still loaded to RAM - I think...

Would love to hear other's ideas...

Z

Win 10 64, 16 gig, intel 5820 six core processor X99a Mobo, Focusrite Liquid 56 channel sound.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 10, 2016)

I suggest checking out all of the Junkie XL tutorials if you haven't already. 

It seems that with the libraries you have and 16GB you won't have all that much to load so a big template for all that you have wouldn't be all that much of a problem until you run out of ram. 

If you're gonna be disabling I suggest doing so in VEP rather than in Cubase so that you don't need to load things in projects and reload every time you open/close.


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## Jetzer (Oct 10, 2016)

I use a Cubase disabled template. I might try the new VEP at some point but I didn't like the way the old VEP handled things, and haven't had the time to look properly at the new update.

I have 32 gb of ram, but since disabled tracks I rarely use more than 16. Eveything is super fast, loading times are quick, I love the flexibility, low latency, and I love instrument tracks a lot more than midi tracks.


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## ZeroZero (Oct 11, 2016)

Did a bit of testing JE, could be of interest.... 

Using East West Symphonic orchestra Platinium - full template.

Templates all use Cubase MIDI tracks (not instrument tracks) and one instance of Play shared by different tracks, Keyswitch Multies loaded. Also included in template Omnisphere, Keyscape and BFD3 which for some reason will not freeze. 

Win 10 64, 16 gig six core intel 5820, X99A mobo

1 ] With no apps running except this browser 29 % memory. 12% CPU

2] With Only Cubase loaded (and this browser) 30% RAM, 13% CPU

3] East West Orchestra template no disabled tracks: 3 minute 15 second load time CPU 20% Memory 90%

4] East West Orchestra template all EW disabled tracks: 1 minute 45 second load time CPU 20% Memory 66%

5] East West Orchestra template all EW frozen tracks: 1 minute 45 second load time CPU 15% Memory 59%


Cubase 8.5, 64 bit Intel 5820K Corei7 16 gig RAM PC Win10, Focusrite Liquid 56 Running in Surround 5.1 British Rail sandwich circa 1967, a singing fish and an inert K9.


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## ZeroZero (Oct 16, 2016)

Buying more RAM. checking out all of the Junkie XL tutorials thank you Gerhard, they look good. Downloading Albion 1 apparently this takes 7 days!


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## garyhiebner (Oct 16, 2016)

Are you using SSDs? Can't see in your hardware description at the bottom. This will also help the load time of your template.


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## ZeroZero (Oct 16, 2016)

I just updated my sig - yes I have SSDs for operating system and for Spectrasonics and Spitfire. I have a couple of legacy HHDs too - sample laden. 

My main concern with this template stuff is cluttering the CPU and RAM 

Z


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## esencia (Oct 24, 2016)

JH said:


> I use a Cubase disabled template. I might try the new VEP at some point but I didn't like the way the old VEP handled things, and haven't had the time to look properly at the new update.
> 
> I have 32 gb of ram, but since disabled tracks I rarely use more than 16. Eveything is super fast, loading times are quick, I love the flexibility, low latency, and I love instrument tracks a lot more than midi tracks.


Are you using VEP with cubase or you are loading kontakt directly into cubase?

As I'm a recent Cubase user (I was a Logic user), I'm really interested to receive feedback from other forum members that could also been dealing with big templates using VEP and a Midi track for each articulation ..
My two points here is how could I trigger from cubase project, a parameter or macro to use the new feature of VEP 6 of disabling channels..


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## ZeroZero (Oct 24, 2016)

I too am interested in this, I received VePro 6 today. I installed it. Their appears to be some conflict in the Elicencer for me. If I load VePro 6 first Cubase 8.5 won't load. If I load Cubase first then open the server (which has had a radical redesign since version 5) then this throws up a message about requiring an update in Elicencer and not having enough privileges, but.. then appears to work. 
BTW if this is a new install, there is a freebie orchestra called Epic Orchestra - it's easy to forget to install this in this arcane and esoteric multifaceted installation and set up process. 

I have discovered a couple of courses on the net which I am now studying before I build an enormous template: 

Orchestration 302 The MIDI Orchestra - Designing Templates (on AskVIdeo) 

Vienna Ensemble pro explained (on Groove3)


Both authors are both clear and technically comprehensive


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## dog1978 (Oct 25, 2016)

I prefer to work with a big template (got about 600 tracks). I got one slave with 64 GB with VE Pro and Ve Pro on my master (64 GB, too).
When I disable tracks, I got two problems: 1. Cubase forgets the MIDI input so I get to set it to ALL. And some libraries need some seconds for loading. But I want to play / try the sounds instantly.

I've created a video about VE Pro. Just a short introdruction:


How are you creating your 5.1 setup? Now I am working in stereo, thinking about routing all surround channels from libraries like Orchestral Tools (Brass, Woodwind), CineSamples, Spitifire Audio to the rear channels. Till now I created the 5.1 printing out the stems: Strings Dry, Strings Wet (just reverb)..... Then putting the signals to the rear speakers with processing the signal or creating special reverbs, delays, eqs or working with phoenix reverb.


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## Jetzer (Oct 25, 2016)

@esencia I bypass VEP and load everything straight into Cubase, as instrument tracks. Much easier imo.

I would only use VEP again if:
- Cubase crashes often (it doesn't)
- I would use a reeeeaaaally big template and want everything under my finger tips at all time (I don't need that in my situation)
- I would work on long-term film projects and constantly have to switch between cubase projects for different scenes etc. 

Otherwise, I'd say, just use Cubase instrument tracks.


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 29, 2016)

Then two question. How to do large template with Cubase Track instruments? I can't see myself with 500+ tracks as Instruments, meaning 500+ kontakt instance (even though I'd disable all but those I'd need for that specific project). 

If with VEP, then what's the best way around. More instances and fewer channels (Kontakt instruments) or less instances but with much more channels (kontakt instruments)?


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## ZeroZero (Oct 30, 2016)

Grizzlymv said:


> Then two question. How to do large template with Cubase Track instruments? I can't see myself with 500+ tracks as Instruments, meaning 500+ kontakt instance (even though I'd disable all but those I'd need for that specific project).
> 
> If with VEP, then what's the best way around. More instances and fewer channels (Kontakt instruments) or less instances but with much more channels (kontakt instruments)?



You can hide tracks in some Daws, and you can disable tracks. I assume you know this, it's a partial answer. It's a big hope of mine that Cubase 9 will give us some help, it makes no sense to have RAM cluttered with samples you don't actually need. A global purge button was a suggestion of mine in their forum, along with an intelligence that would know which track(s) you are working on and only load the full sample complement for these - maybe an ability to set 'active' tracks in the visibility inspector.

One professional template designer recently said this to me in an email:

_"Your aim seems to be basically having 1 track per instrument, which then switches between various patches from different libraries. This is pretty much the polar opposite of my usual approach. I prefer 1 track per articulation, with templates usually having between 3000-6000 tracks. I never use keyswitches."
_
This did surprise me. The whole scrolling/ finding/ hunting and pecking thing. would overwhelm my creative juices. I also think he must just add slaves, rather than work within a single fast powerful PC. Answers that were correct a year or more ago may no longer be correct today - with advancements in SSDs, RAM sizes and speeds, core annd thread management and VST design. I have no reason to defintely say his raison d'etre is wrong though. It's all some big massive compromise.

I don't know how he constructs clarinet solos that use different articulations, riding many horses on different staffs is not my idea of fun. The footprint overheads might also be fairly weighty. There are two RAM/CPU costs to an active playing sample, firstly the space that the sample 'header' occupies RAM (normally a decent sampler only loads the first portion of the sample) , then there is the ram that is required to construct a delivery mechanism which takes it, on cue, from RAM and transforms it into an actual speak signal. Most of the latter is (I guess) in the domain by Windows and the Sequencer, but some also must be consumed by the actual sample player/VST. If you load VST instances by the hundred, then what is the system cost beyond the loading of a GUI image? I don't know, and its probably variable according to task and type of VST.


I guess this is just a long way of saying I don't know the answer. Others may shed light...
_


_


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 30, 2016)

Well, there doesn't seems to have a definitive answer. And as you mention, the fact that technologies and software evolve quite quickly, what wasn't an option few months ago might be the way to go today. I found a video in another thread about how to deal with large template in VEP6 and optimize Kontakt in it and apparently it is better to have one instance (or keep it to a minimum) with several instruments (channels) loaded. That's really great. Although, there's pros and cons to both option (VEP+Slave vs Cubase and Disabled tracks). 

I did try both approach (one track per articulation and one track by instrument, including all articulations). Actually, my current template have both. What I found is that it depends of the instrument. I got some (embertone strings for instance) where I use Expression Maps to switch articulation on one single track. I do love it and it make more sense from a logical perspective. I did try having all articulation separated at first, but didn't work that well as the memory footprint was huge for nothing and you'd always have to initialize the track with the proper keyswitch to ensure you get the proper articulation. Painfull. On the other side, you have instruments that are better designed as one articulation per track. So I get both scenarios in my template at the moment. Maybe the answer is there. 

Now for the VEP/Cubase debate, What attracts me in the Cubase Disable tracks scenario is the fact that it can scale much better as you add new libraries (or remove old) without too much of changes in the template. It's also nice to have less tracks as the audio and midi are displayed as one track, so you get a "cleaner" ui. What keeps me from it however, is that saving time seems to be quite long according to what have been reported here, but I guess I can live with it. The main concerns is with future update or upgrade. Will Cubase still support your existing template without having to re-do it from scratch? Not so a problem with small templates, but when you get a large one, you may not want to end up in that situation. with VEP, your chances to get into that situation is much lower. hmmm. decisions...decisions...


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## ZeroZero (Oct 30, 2016)

Grizzlymv,
Do you understand why, in Vepro 6, if I have an instance in
Vepro set up with say three instruments in it A, B, C, then if this is selected in Cubase - for one of its instances say A, then the whole instance becomes unavailable both in that instrument track and in others meaning that B and C are pointless baggage?
I first imagined that we could work 1 instance for strings, another for woods, etc..

I think there are three entities Server Projects, Projects and instances, the latter containing as many VSTs as you care to add. You can only load one serve-project at a time. I am not sure about the projects and instances they currently seem identical to me but they have different names in the interface. I think I am missing something here and my brain feels like a burger that has been on the floor of a burger van for a few days.


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 30, 2016)

hmm. I'm not sure to fully get what you mean by A B C. The way I'm working is as follow:
On the slave: 
- Open VEP Server
- Create an Instance, which I'd name Strings for example
- Insert a Kontakt 5 Plugin. Make sure the VE Pro Plugin Midi In is 1 and All as the Midi channel. Then load up to 16 different articulations or samples in there, as you'd usually do in Kontakt. 
- Then, you may add a second Kontakt 5 plugin in VEP. You do the same as above, but instead, the VE Pro Plugin Midi In would have to be set to 2. and so on. 

Then, in Cubase, you need to load the Vienne Ensemble Pro connector in a Rack, but the VST 3 version (the one with the 3 dash at the end). This is important as the VST2 version won't be able to see the second kontakt in your instance. 

Connect your VEP plugin to the VEP server.
Then add 16 Midi tracks and connect them to the VEP Instance Strings 1. You can use the usual 1 to 16 midi ports in the midi track.
Then add 16 more Midi tracks and this time connect them to VEP instance Strings 2. again, they will be from 1 to 16, and so on. 

Not sure if that's the answer you're looking for. It took me a while to get that I needed to run the VST 3 version and not the 2 in order to have it fully functional. Let me know if it's unclear, I may try to do some screen shots.


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## ZeroZero (Oct 30, 2016)

thank you for this, its valuable to me, I have a dinner to goto after this I shall try to follow your steps see what happens. By A B C I mean for example A: violins Keyswitch, B Violas Keyswitch, C Cellos Keyswitch, or alternatively, A violins legato, B Violins Staccato, C violin Pizzicato.


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 30, 2016)

Actually I think I see what you mean by A B C. I think you refer to Port A (1 to 16), Port B (1 to 16), Port C (1 to 16) and Port D (1 to 16) in Kontakt. If that's the case, I can confirm that this isn't going to work. At least, not if you're using Kontakt as a VST plugin in your host or in VEP. There's a limitation of only 16 channels overall. 

If you use VEP, then what you're gonna do is to create an Instance, then add 1 channel (one Kontakt 5 instance) which you'll use the first 16 channels. this would be the equivalent of your Port A. Then you'd add a second channel (another Kontakt 5 instance) which you'll again load the first 16 channels (port A1 to A16), and so on. And from Cubase, if you load the VST 3 version of the VEP plugin, you'll be able to map them correctly on each tracks. Hope this help.


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## ZeroZero (Oct 31, 2016)

Warning not suitable for the brain fried:

OK, I think our workflows are different, but also I was making some mistakes and in my orginal questions about Vepro. I think I misled when I used the term 'instrument' when I meant 'VST' - here:

_"Do you understand why, in Vepro 6, if I have an instance in Vepro set up with say three instruments in it A, B, C, then...."_

I think these are differences in our design thinking:

You are thinking Kontakt only (in this post anyways) and I am thinking Kontakt, VSL, EW etc. So in an instance labelled 'strings' I would like to draw on different sample libraries. I still think you explanation stands...... its just a case of correct channels and inputs.
You are thinking one articulation per track, I am thinking of loading master keyswitches and using expression maps in Cubase to control the articulations.

One mistake I now realise is expecting to work by loading VEPro into Cubase instrument tracks (which are now multitimbral) . I am guessing this does not work well. I shall use a rack and MIDI tracks.


_Another thing that is still confusing me is this projects/instances thing. I think it confuses others too._

This is my current understanding - right or wrong

The granddaddy is the server project, this houses everything accessible in a sequencer. Only one Server project per Cubase project because you can only have one server project at a time in Vepro. You cannot have more than one Vepro server project running simultaneously. 

A server project contains instances. These instances are effectively the tabs in the 'server project' . Each instance can hold any number of VSTs. Very confusingly they get to be named twice. If you rename an instance by clicking on the tab (default labelled untitled 1 etc) the name shows in two places. On the tab itself, and also next to the lock icon.

If you then decide to goto the Instance Menu, you _don't_ get an option to save or rename an instance, now they are called 'projects' (as opposed to server projects). !!.

Click on 'save project' give it a unique name and save, then this second name appears next to the tab name which is next to the lock icon. You have not changed the name of the instance...

Confuddfluammmldd?

If you look on any other tab in the same _Server_ Project, you will find that the second 'project' name, only applies to _that_ instance

*Tip and warning:* If you navigate to a _server_ project in windows, and click on it, Vepro opens fine. But.. if you click on a 'project' (as opposed to a server project), very sneakingly, Vepro opens the standalone, where you will find the menu structure is very different and does not even show an Instance Menu! This threw me of my horse.

Anyways, I do think you have clarified a few things, thank you for your time. I shall run a few more tests in Cubase.

Zero


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 31, 2016)

Well, even though my example was only refering kontakt, the process remain the same. A Channel in VEP = 1 VST instance. So it could be EZDrummer, Kontakt, VSL, XPand!2, Play, you name it. But for those that are multitimbral (Play, Kontakt, VSL) the concept remains the same. 

You are right assuming that you can have only 1 Server project per server, meaning per computer. In that project server, you indeed have Instances (tabs) that you can save under the Instance menu...Save Project (which is indeed confusing!) To save the SERVER project, then you go in the Vienna Ensemble Pro menu save option instead. And then, each instances (project, not SERVER project) contains a number of channels (VST) that you can assign to different midi and audio port. VEP 5 was already a bit confusing in the naming parts, but with v6 and the changes it brings, it's even more confusing. 

And finally, VEP and Instrument Tracks can work, but very limited. I'd go with the Project Server + VST plugin in rack tracks. And regarding the Project vs Server Project files thing, as I said, consider that Project = Instance, Server Project = group of Instances. So it "make sense" that clicking on a Project would only open the VEP standalone with only that instance loaded (no possibilities for extra instances). You would need to open the VEP Server file instead (forgot the extension name). Hope this help. 

On my side, after too many hours of messing around with different tests and scenario, I'm now working on a Cubase only template with disabled instruments tracks on a single machine. For bigger project, might keep the traditionnal orchestra only in VEP on a slave, and keep all the rest as Instrument tracks to spread the load. Will see how it goes.


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## Noam Guterman (Oct 31, 2016)

The problem with Cubase disabled tracks method for a template is that when the template is huge, the saving time gets bigger. Yes, even when it's 100% disabled, the save time can get to a few seconds. With VEP there's no saving time, it's instant. As a guy that saves compulsively every tiniest of change to the project, that is the main reason I prefer VEP.


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 31, 2016)

I agree. I guess there's a trade off no matter which scenario you choose.  I've been on VEP for a while with mixed results. With a very large template in VEP, Cubase became slower in its execution and was still eating a lot of resources even though it was standalone on a dedicated machine (VEP was running on slaves computer). Will give this one a shot and see how big is the tradeoff. Like I said, might end up with a merged scenario. I believe I've seen a few posts from others who ended up doing so. In any case, there won't be any definitive answer as it's case by case for all of us depending on the libraries we own, our way of working and our resources available.


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## ZeroZero (Oct 31, 2016)

*Health warning:* _Don't bother reading the next two posts unless Vienna Ensemble Pro is still perplexing you! _



Grizzlymv said:


> hmm. I'm not sure to fully get what you mean by A B C. The way I'm working is as follow:
> On the slave:
> - Open VEP Server
> - Create an Instance, which I'd name Strings for example
> ...



OK thank you Grizzlymv. So, I followed these instructions and after a fiddle around got it working as you described. I just used two channels per VST GUI to simplify things, but it proved the principle ne'st pas? I shall adopt your method of working.

I note from the instructions above, that you _don't_ mention using two Vepro instances/tabs/projects (three words for one entitiy right?). I therefore assume from this that all the instruments (GUIs of Kontakt in your example) were loaded in the first instance/project/tab.

What also puzzles me, is that if you create a second instance/project/tab, in the same 'server project' , you simply have no way to access it in the same Cubase project.
Let's say I loaded some bag pipes into a second instance/project/tab. I label that tab instance 2. If I allocated a MIDI track to it and then went to the (unhelpfully unnamed) squarish lets call it the "Connect GUI", that pops up in Cubase, to select "instance 2" then as soon as I select it all of the sounds in instance one, and or any other tab/project/instance become 'disconnected' and stop playing.
I have been wondering about that for days. It's making no sense here. What is the point of different tabs if you can't use them? This makes me feel like there is something wrong somewhere...the tabs in Vepro seem completely useless.

_thank you for following my musings._

Z


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## ZeroZero (Oct 31, 2016)

*AHH!!*
The penny dropped just after I wrote the above post! To connect to the second tab/instance/project in Vepro you MUST open _ANOTHER_ VST for Vepro in the Instrument RACK!

This was _*very *_counter-intuitive to me!

It's still NOT easy in Cubase because.... there is another booby trap!

*Repro*

In order to make it easy on yourself, first goto the instrument rack where you have loaded TWO instances of Vepro in Cubase instrument rack and label them Vepro 1 and Vepro 2, this makes it easy to see.

Create a MIDI track in Cubase. Now goto the MIDI track's Inspector in Cubase. In the area marked _"output routing (All selected with Shift Alt Click)_" - when you hover over it - i.e. the "output selector". Click and a drop down menu appears.

What you need to notice is that this is *TWO* lists of eight, not _ONE _list of sixteen. The first eight are labelled Vepro 1 MIDI In 1; Vepro 1, MIDI in 2.. until you get to 8. The SECOND group of eight are labelled Vepro *2 *meaning they relate to your second rack instrument. This is VERY easy to miss.

Further, the way to select an instrument in the second tab of your (only) Vepro Server is to use the drop down list described above and select the second set of eight (as above) the ones labelled Vepro 2 after your second example of Vienna Ensemble Pro 6 that you loaded into the instrument rack.

With me so far?

Be aware, that it is NOT this selection which determines which channel of a given VST instrument (loaded into the Vepro Server) makes the sound. An individual sound of an instrument is selected by choosing the approrpaite MIDI channel in the Cubase's channel select box immediately below the drop down list you just saw, in Cubase's inspector. Both have to be right.

*Basically work this way:* For 1 tab/instance/project in the Vepro server, create one Cubase rack Vienna Ensemble Pro instrument. Name them intelligently.

I hope this helps those in need!

*Moral and simplification*

Ok in order to simplify this down I think its best to do this:
Let's say you want to organise some Strings and Brass

Label the first Tab "Strings" in the Vepro Server. Load that instance/tab/project with just string sounds.

Load up your first Vepro into the instrument Rack - Call it "Strings".

Load a second tab/project/instance into Vepro SERVER. Label that Brass. Load in some brass sounds.

Load another Vepro into the instrument rack. Rename that (in CUbase's instrument rack) Brass.

Now you will find that the output routing is helpfully named so that your tabs in Vepro and the output routing names correspond, as do the VSts in Cubase's rack.

I think that helps to clear the mind!

Zero


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 31, 2016)

Well, I'm not sure why you are limited to 8 midi tracks only. 

If you do as follow, you should be fine. Let's use Kontakt for the simplicity, but you can replace it by whatever VST you have:

VEP Server (not the standalone)
- Create Instance 1, name it Strings
- Add a plugin (channel) of Kontakt.
- Set it to Midi 1 / All
- Add a second plugin (channel) of Kontakt.
- Set it to Midi 2 / All

- Create Instance 2, name it Brass
- Add a plugin (channel) of Kontakt
- Set it to Midi 1 / All
- Add a second plugin (channel) of Kontakt.
- Set it to Midi 2 / All

Then in Cubase, add a Vienne Ensemble Pro (VST 3 version) in Rack instrument. Connect it to the Strings instance. Name it VEP-Strings

Then add a second Vienna Ensemble Pro (VST 3 version ) in Rack instrument, connect it to the Brass instance. Name it VEP-Brass

Now, add a midi track.
In the out, connect it to the VEP-STrings-Midi In 1 and select Midi channel 1. 
Add a second midi track.
In the out, connect it to the VEP-Strings-Midi In 1 and select Midi channel 2.
and so on until you get to Midi channel 16 (assuming you've loaded 16 instruments in your FIRST Kontakt instance). But let' assume you've only added 2 so far. 
Now, to access the second Strings instance (still with me?):
Add a third midi track,
in the out, connect it to the VEP-Strings-Midi In 2 and select Midi channel 1. So as you've seen, we've selected the 2nd channel of the Strings instance, and now we have access to the 16 midi ports of that channel. 

Now, to get the brass, you do the same, but with VEP-Brass-Midi 1, channel 1 and so on. 

Here's a small tutorial I just found that may explain it better. Pretty simple once you get it. But it's confusing to get there first.


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 31, 2016)

oh, and to add to this, I forgot which tutorial I've seen about this, but there was one where the guy basically said that it's apparently better to have all plugins under 1 instance vs several plugins under multiple instances. It's easier to assign the proper thread count also in that scenario since it's per instance. There you have it.


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## InLight-Tone (Oct 31, 2016)

All that gibberish above is why I advocate using all *Instrument* tracks and disable them. Build a 3000 track template if you want, categorized as you want. Activate track and compose. Put your favorite stuff in your face. Too slow for you? Buy some PCI SSD drives to combat that. 

No extra midi tracks, no Kontakt instances with midi routed to them and audio from them, no extra billions of audio tracks you have to contend with. No extra PC's and slaves to have to maintain, upgrade and power. 

When activated, everything lines up in the mixer in order, one stereo track per activated instrument. In the mixer, that's all you see, clean and simple. The biggest drawback as stated is that saving takes about 5 seconds for a 1000+ track template, but hey if you don't have 5 seconds to spare your priorities in LIFE are skewed. (Turn OFF auto-save!)

Ah, my hairline is growing back from the stress being taken away


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## Grizzlymv (Oct 31, 2016)

Yeah, I see what you mean InLight-Tone. I'm working on a project right now and I'm trying to work with a Disabled/Instrument tracks template instead. I like it so far. 

Quick question though. Right now I'm only using Instrument Tracks. Meaning 1 Kontakt with 1 single instrument per track. However, I've seen a tutorial where the guy was using an Instrument Track with Kontakt, loaded a few strings patches in there, and then used MIDI tracks (1 to 16) mapped to the Instrument Track. So for instance, instead of having 16 INSTRUMENT tracks for his Albion One Strings, he would have 1 INSTRUMENT track, containing the 16 articulations in Kontakt. Then having 16 MIDI tracks mapped to that 1 INSTRUMENT track containing the 16 articulation. 

Based on your experience so far, would you recommend the 1:1 approach or the 1:16 one for INSTRUMENT tracks?


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## Mishabou (Oct 31, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> All that gibberish above is why I advocate using all *Instrument* tracks and disable them. Build a 3000 track template if you want, categorized as you want. Activate track and compose. Put your favorite stuff in your face. Too slow for you? Buy some PCI SSD drives to combat that.
> 
> No extra midi tracks, no Kontakt instances with midi routed to them and audio from them, no extra billions of audio tracks you have to contend with. No extra PC's and slaves to have to maintain, upgrade and power.
> 
> ...



Doesn't scrolling through all those tracks drive you crazy? and how about this scenario...you enable tracks as you go only to find out your computer tops out at 50 Kontakt instances? What's the point of having gazillion tracks once you reach this point ?


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## DaddyO (Oct 31, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> *AHH!!*
> The penny dropped just after I wrote the above post! To connect to the second tab/instance/project in Vepro you MUST open _ANOTHER_ VST for Vepro in the Instrument RACK!
> 
> ...
> ...



Zero,

Actually, you are not limited to 8 MIDI inputs. I think that's the default setting for VE Pro, but in VE Pro Preferences you can change (increase or decrease) the number of MIDI ports for your Instances. Then when you access your Cubase track input dropdown you will see the corresponding number of MIDI inputs you have set in your VE Pro Preferences for MIDI outputs.

Personally, I set my template up with:

1. VE Pro Instances for each instrument family like you mentioned, Winds, Brass, Percussion, Keys, and Strings.

2. Within each VE Pro Instance I use a different MIDI output for each instrument type, Flutes (MIDI output 1, includes piccolo and all flutes), Oboes (MIDI output 2, includes all oboes, English horns, etc.), Clarinets, Bassoons, etc. Each individual VE Pro channels gets it's own channel within the MIDI output (Piccolo is output 1 channel 1, Flute 1 is output 1 channel 2, Flute 2 is output 1 channel 3, etc.). I do the same for Brass, Strings, and so on.

3. For each track in Cubase make sure your MIDI inputs and channels correspond correctly with VE Pro outputs and channels.


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## InLight-Tone (Oct 31, 2016)

Grizzlymv said:


> Yeah, I see what you mean InLight-Tone. I'm working on a project right now and I'm trying to work with a Disabled/Instrument tracks template instead. I like it so far.
> 
> Quick question though. Right now I'm only using Instrument Tracks. Meaning 1 Kontakt with 1 single instrument per track. However, I've seen a tutorial where the guy was using an Instrument Track with Kontakt, loaded a few strings patches in there, and then used MIDI tracks (1 to 16) mapped to the Instrument Track. So for instance, instead of having 16 INSTRUMENT tracks for his Albion One Strings, he would have 1 INSTRUMENT track, containing the 16 articulations in Kontakt. Then having 16 MIDI tracks mapped to that 1 INSTRUMENT track containing the 16 articulation.
> 
> Based on your experience so far, would you recommend the 1:1 approach or the 1:16 one for INSTRUMENT tracks?



If we're talking Cubase, and I think we are, and we wanted to keep it to one track you could use expression maps and switch articulations that way. Some like to have their articulations on separate tracks and it works for them, but the simple solution is to duplicate the original track and switch the articulation for that track and keep going.

I understand what you're saying that if you are using 16 different articulations tracks it would get unweildly though many seem to work that way. If I were going that route I would only create a duplicate if that artic was needed and create a new instrument track. 

Personally, with Cubase' visibility feature, it's pretty easy to get of everything you don't want to see with a tap on a Lemur button or see the whole mess or certain sections as you wish. The biggest drawback is that when you hide the rest, the folders I use to organize are still visible leading to a bit of clutter...

(Bear in mind that I am an avid amateur at best!)...


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## InLight-Tone (Oct 31, 2016)

Anhtu said:


> Doesn't scrolling through all those tracks drive you crazy? and how about this scenario...you enable tracks as you go only to find out your computer tops out at 50 Kontakt instances? What's the point of having gazillion tracks once you reach this point ?



With the Cubase visibility feature the scrolling is limited. Show me my strings, show my my synths etc. I actually have found it productive to have my resources organized by folders and in front of me so I know what to focus on. I have a modest computer and find that it doesn't top out at 50 Kontakt instances. Did you read where Blakus is running 200+ instances on a lowly i7? How many tracks do we need really when they are all smeared together into stereo?


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## ZeroZero (Nov 1, 2016)

This is a fabulous thread and I, and I think others, must have learnt a lot.

**I shall post CPRs when the CPR reaches developmental stages. These might be of interest to some. I shall stick to this thread for the build. There is a prototype CPR linked below.*

Here is where I stand at present in relation to various researches/test projects, ferreting, and responses above: .

1] It was _*bugging*_ me that I could not use the tabs feature in Vepro 6 - now I can (thank you guys). I did not know that each Vepro 6 instance demands it's own Cubase rack "Vienna Ensemble Pro... VST3" instrument in the Cubase rack (daren't use the cursed word 'instance') of your Vepro VST in the RACK. If Vepro 6 does not get its way on this your tabs disappear from reach. Now I found this out, I had a cup of Horlicks and settled down to thunking.... (mixture of thinking and getting drunk)...

2] Yes you _*can*_ have more than 8 Midi inputs simply go: Options/Prefs/Server/instances/MIDI ports, select your desired number, then restart both Cubase and Vepro server. Warning: Cubase then lists the ports in a fairly jumbled way - 1,10,11,2,3 etc.. and variations of so... So _do_ rename your Cubase rack mounted examples of Vepro, if you wander this valley, with short memorable names, it helps with the spaghetti you get.

3] *Yes* it _*is*_ perfectly legit to have everything in one instance, to have all individual tracks, I personally don't like working this way. It's a workflow thing. I also detest riding many tracks for one voice, one melody. I used to flip real pages on a real musicstand - that's my past, I want to emulate that. Sometimes riding several staffs for one melody line (if you want articulations) is IMO unavoidable - with the current state of development Cubase 8.5. Sometimes you can use expression maps.

4] I think *InLight-Tone* _has_ got a point above, all this _Vepro_ 6 stuff, you *don't* need it. Now I understand Vepro better, I *still don't see the point of Vepro 6 in Cubase 8.5 WIN, you can work without it* - principally by disabling tracks and using the visibility inspector. I also don't like the way Vepro 6 robbed Cubase of it's surround panner (when Vepro is set up for surround) Cubase's surround panner is far superior.
So after giving it a _lot_ of thought (and a lot of posts thank you crew) I have come to the conclusion it's an extra layer of complexity that is not required and does not save RAM/CPU. Portability of section(read Vepro projects) is not that important to me. You can use the export functions in Cubase if you need them. You can take a larger project and simply cut stuff out.

5] The only design risk of not using Vepro is the matter of _slaves_. If I run out of RAM I shall update my MOBO to 128 gig - which you can do with many X99 mobos _IF_ _you update the bios!_ If that does not work then I will have to rejig the whole of the template to Vepro's needs, I take this risk, it will be a _'learning opportunity'_ if I stumble here.


This is my favoured design, which I will start on today. _No Vepro._


*Within Cubase 8.5, Design Brief - reuncalcified:*


a] One "Master Folder" for standard instrument sections, extra folders for other _major_ categories like synths, guitars, vox. Colour coordinate all folders like Versace! All MIDI tracks will be surround 5.1, stereo tracks will be loaded into surround tracks to give panning freedom.

b] Subfolders for specific instrument types e.g 'flute'. Within these folders have more sub-subfolders for flute types e.g. classical flutes, world flutes. Within these, maybe even more sub-sub-subfolders for different flute types _within_ these types (Bb classical flute, C classical flute). This will make sense and develop as you draw upon all your samples from that tb sample drive. . *possible bug:* _*I have heard their might be a Cubase bug that prevents nested folders x3 + from being hidden. I will check this out._ All these folders using all types of libraries, independent (EW, VSL) and those loaded into Kontakt 5.

_* Such a build is time consuming to be sure, but once you have at least one instrument for every genre, then the rest can be loaded in* incrementally* over months perhaps.
The way to think about this is to get methodical and impose a little ritual on yourself when loading a novel/new instrument for the first time: Decide if you want to keep this instrument in your master project template grande. If you do, open the template in a separate project window (you don't need to shut other projects). Add that instrument to the template, observing routings. This may be tedious to begin with, but like all musical things it speeds up with practice. If you add this ritual to your sound selection workflow, you get given a 'template grande' ._

c] Minimally use one instance of each required multitimbral VST (in the instrument rack) per Master folder. For sanity reasons.

d] Hide and Disable _everything_ in Cubase _except_: one goto instrument for every orchestral member/section; any other favourite piano etc. _*This is what you get to see in the project window it should resemble the Mona Lisa, or failing this a paper conductor's score.*_ A thinking space, an agile, yet easy to grab that Güiro, _ready_ to roll! No more hunting and pecking!

e] Use Master Keyswitch patches where available. *I am _not_ sure about this, as I am foggy on the question of if all, or at least most libraries, use dynamic xfades in their _master_ keywitches. I do not forget that all this effort is for the _music_. With vibrato sustaining instruments (Violin, oboe...) as opposed to instruments like percussion) where you hit it and the note escapes your control. I prefer using dynamic xfades as it gives a more realistic sound. Ergo Design will be instrument dependent

f] Judiciously use purge where I can in all the VSTs (Oh for a Cubase global purge)

g] *Accessories:* Create one bar offsets with MIDI initialisations for MOD wheel etc... Create an 5.1 Audio sound checker track, A lightweight piano (TruePianos) with couple of bars of sound check MIDI. Put these at the top of the project window, for sound check purpose.

h] Whether we are talking EWest, Kontakt,VSL or whatever, I shall load one instance of the GUI into the rack for each master folder (orchestral section). That should keep the routing clearer.

I] I shall use expression maps by preference.



*Second Design Layer:*
Create suitable mixer views, routings groups, VCAs as required. Create Cubase workspaces.

*Cubase tools:*
Track Visibility Inspector, Disable tracks feature, Import/export track archives, mixer views, purge VSTs, freeze tracks, hide track types, Cubase work spaces, VCA, groups, expression maps.

Lastly here is the CPR I start with. It's one I created some years ago for EWQLSO. It's a one orchestra only template |+Spectrasonics and BFD3, It has some expression maps too. I give no gauruntees how it ports to your system of course, but it might be of interest to some.

Best wishes to all my fellow geeks!


https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ai7g90pI7-tKgeAn4XEeUQ8Hn9IWaA


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## Tatu (Nov 1, 2016)

I recently switched from Mac/Logic Pro to Win/Cubase and have been fixing up my all-kontakt template. I use instrument tracks (350 or so so far) and have noticed that whilst working is smooth, the saving times do indeed strech a tad too long (another compulsive ctrl+s'r reporting for duty) and the file size is around 230Mb's, which is a bit too much to my liking (with a handfull of backups it easilly starts to eat up HD space). I haven't adjusted the pre-buffer in kontakt and when fully purged, my template's taking about 30Gb's of RAM, no need to disable anything so far (I have 64Gb available).


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## ZeroZero (Nov 1, 2016)

Welcome Tatu...

I would carry out a lot of checks of the template using purge, disable, voice counts, polyphony reduction, see if the project can loose weight. You probably know this stuff, but did you get down to duties?

I am not yet at your stage of build.

You say the "_file size' is 230mb's"_ you mean the CPR file?

Like I said, loading times is piano practice time, what I mean is, sometimes it's a mindset thing. That's not telling you what to do, your situation/goals are bespoke.

I have heard that some people are upset by the disappearance of the purge function from Kontakt 5. I am guessing there is a good autu-global-purge function, under the hood instead? Otherwise you have to remember if and what you have purged, this is a challenge when your brain feels like its in the bottom of a wellie.


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## Tatu (Nov 1, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> I am not yet at your stage of build. You say the 'file size' is 230mb's you mean the CPR file?


Yep, cpr size. Same goes for backups (.bak), naturally.

I haven't gone under the hood as far as performance goes, since the only thing that is slow is saving, and I'd imagine it has nothing to do with kontakt settings (purge, polyphony) etc. 

Loading times always takes what ever it takes, that's not an issue for me


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## Waywyn (Nov 1, 2016)

Hey guys, the project file size is really a problem for you? Seriously? You are not regularly doing projectsaves and backups? I usually save in continuous numbers, which basically means that I "save as new version" just in case I have to do a roll back to an earlier stage of the project. After a few weeks the project is done I delete all the older saving points or simply move the project to an external backup drive and get the stuff from my machine! My session drive is a 1TB and I NEVER got over around 600GB of projects once I started to take care of that!


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## ZeroZero (Nov 1, 2016)

Tatu said:


> Yep, cpr size. Same goes for backups (.bak), naturally.
> 
> I haven't gone under the hood as far as performance goes, since the only thing that is slow is saving, and I'd imagine it has nothing to do with kontakt settings (purge, polyphony) etc.
> 
> Loading times always takes what ever it takes, that's not an issue for me



I think it does have a lot to do with this, if these settings are adrift file sizes can mushroom - more to save - longer save times. Disqualifier: I don't know your goals and set up


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## ZeroZero (Nov 1, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Hey guys, the project file size is really a problem for you? Seriously? You are not regularly doing projectsaves and backups? I usually save in continuous numbers, which basically means that I "save as new version" just in case I have to do a roll back to an earlier stage of the project. !



Yes, I have "_save as new version_" set up as a short cut key for Y it's about the only decent spare key in Cubase's short cut menu. Bang the Y your on a new version of the project, fresh thinking landscape. On record: I am not worrying about save times here, other may go ahead and worry.


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## Tatu (Nov 1, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> I think it does have a lot to do with this, if these settings are adrift file sizes can mushroom - more to save - longer save times. Disqualifier: I don't know your goals and set up


Well this doesn't really compute at all in my head; If my kontakt settings say "play unlimited polyphony", isn't that just 1 parameter, just like it would be, if it'd say "play only 1 voice"? And if Cubase saves settings / instance, then the amount of parameters are the same regardless of the settings.

Disclaimer: I don't know anything about that stuff.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 1, 2016)

This is _my_ understanding:

Depending on instrument, the better the quality the heavier the load.

Take a single middle C note. It may have up to about twenty samples, depending on depth of sampling, ranging from a ppppp sample to a ffff sample (up to 128 samples). Each one of these has a sample 'header' loaded into RAM (old school stuff loads the whole sample).
The header is the first bit of the note. It's in RAM so that it can be called quickly, the rest of the sample is called when the header is called, it loads from disk to follow straight behind. Sometimes further, there are three samples for each of these things, the attack sample, the sustain and the release trial. 88 notes for a fully polyphonic piano. A meticulously sampled single instrument can take a few gigs just for one instance of the instrument - before reverb.

This starts to add up quick as you load more and more instruments. You _can_ just load default settings, it _will_ do when working at a sub ten piece level, but when you have orchestral templates plus more, 100's of tracks and instruments every inch counts, especially on a single machine. If the Template is 'economically designed' this pays dividends. The projects are faster to perform and load and save quicker too.

What *purge* is, is when you have finished a recorded MIDI performance, all you _then_ need, at that time, is the notes you used in that recording, further only those samples of those notes that were actually used - be it the pp, the mf, the forte samples or a mixture. Purge empties everything else out of RAM. leaving the bare bones you require.

When you save a project & close, everything that is in RAM has to be accounted for because it is cleared for the next app you load. Ram does effect save times.


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## Tatu (Nov 1, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> This is _my_ understanding:


We were talking about two different things: RAM usage / saving speed (you) and saved file size (me). I don't think those two correlate that much, or do they?


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## ZeroZero (Nov 1, 2016)

Not related to the above but:
Here is some useful info about Kontakt 5 and the missing 'global purge' button.
"
_Managing the KONTAKT Memory Server


The KONTAKT Memory Server is managed via the KMS utility, which allows you to manually


purge unused samples if you want to free memory. If you are running out of memory when


loading additional Instruments, the server will automatically start to purge samples that are not


referenced by any loaded Instrument."_


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## Sunshy (Nov 1, 2016)

How are you guys getting to many instances of Kontakt in one Cubase project? Even disabled, I run into performance problems after about 50 instances of Kontakt (one instrument per articulation) like Dirk writes in this video:



I'm on Nuendo 7.5 on a PC (i7, 64 gig ram, Win 10). I use VE Pro 6 for my standard pallet and then use instrument tracks as I add on instruments.


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## Grizzlymv (Nov 1, 2016)

Well. I'm discovering the same issue and was wondering the same thing. Was able to load much more with the vep scenario. But I really do like the flexibility and reactivity of the disabled model in cubase so far. Maybe as I think ZeroZero suggested (or was it someone else?) Is to load multiple instruments into one kontakt instance in an instrument track, then map multiples midi tracks to the instrument track instance. That way I guess you save a bit on the kontakt instances count. But to me, it defeats the purpose of the disabling track feature. Or maybe I missed something?


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## ZeroZero (Nov 2, 2016)

I would say try and use less instances, say one for strings etc..also there is a slider in options, that reduces the amount of header for each sample, I think this is a global setting.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 2, 2016)

Grizzlymv said:


> Well. I'm discovering the same issue and was wondering the same thing. Was able to load much more with the vep scenario. But I really do like the flexibility and reactivity of the disabled model in cubase so far. Maybe as I think ZeroZero suggested (or was it someone else?) Is to load multiple instruments into one kontakt instance in an instrument track, then map multiples midi tracks to the instrument track instance. That way I guess you save a bit on the kontakt instances count. But to me, it defeats the purpose of the disabling track feature. Or maybe I missed something?


How does this defeat the disabled track feature?


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## Grizzlymv (Nov 2, 2016)

Well. Maybe not entirely but to me, the main reason to go with disabled track is to save resources. So a 1:1 ratio makes perfect sense. However as said before, when you get too many kontakt instances, you're getting into trouble waters. A 1:16 ratio to me kind of defeats the purpose as when you disable the track in that scenario it's actually 16 tracks that you disable if I understand it right. Let's say you need only the legato patch, or the short one, you cannot get rid of the other articulations that easily. The same if instead of separated articulation of a same library, I load the multi patch (ex Albion 1 strings hi as 1, strings lo as 2, Albion one strings as 3, etc) to reduce even more the amount of instances and tracks (one track per instruments rather than articulation). I'd still end up with instruments I may not need loaded. Sure there's still the purge feature but that's less convenient. That's what attracted me with the disable feature is the fact that 1 track = one single instrument and then you can get very granular in what you load, use only what you need, while still having everything just one click away. No more needs to organize the content of each kontakt instances etc. I wish kontakt would have a lite / single patch version that would play much nicer with several instances loaded. Or the problem might just be the end user..


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## ZeroZero (Nov 2, 2016)

*Implementing a master template design, first steps:*

OK so I figured out that designing a template should follow these steps:


Initial design - contemplating needs, instruments involved, general layout.
Get to know all the VSTs to be used.
Running feasibility tests, technical tests, ensuring design will _operate_ by creating mini projects and testing methods/apps. Asking Forum questions,
Deciding on how to use multitimbral instruments (e.g one instrument per orchestral section?). Deciding on usage of Kontakt, Play, VSL and other multitimbral interfaces.
Review initial design and determining intended instruments are to be used.
Building a legible template structure using Master Folders and sub-folders (e,g woodwinds, brass..etc).
Loading of instruments to these folders
More testing under load
Purging Disabling Freezing and general cleanup
Final Revisions
Routings and mixer views.

After a lot of tests, questions etc...I am on step 5, the initial _build _using folders



I have laid out my master folders in this way:

*Piano Track & Sound test* _(deletable)_

*All Woodwinds*

Traditional layout + whistles
*All Brass*

Traditional layout + saxes
*All Percussion*

(complex, see below)
*All Keyboards*

Anything with a black and white keyboard _inc chromatic percussion._
Organised into the following groups: Acoustic Pianos, Electric Pianos, Organs, Chromatic Chimes, Keyboard **Harps*)
*All Strings*

Traditional arrangement
*All Guitars*

Acoustic
Electric
Bass (electric)
*All Synths*

Lead
Pad
Bass
*Vox*

There are likely to be sub-sub-folders too.

_The percussion grouping is given me the problems. _

Distinguishing between the percussion folder and keyboard folder is my issue...

I know that the piano is traditionally classified as a percussion instrument, as often is the harp.

My keyboards folder is much more than a percussion folder and so has been given master status. It will contain subcategories like organs, acoustic pianos, electric pianos.
What about Chromatic Percussion? Chromatic percussion seems to merge in with keyboards, from marimba and xylophone, to orchestral bells to Chimeatron, to Celeste, to Harpsichord, to piano, where is that line?

These are my current sub-folder structures under

*All Percussion: *


Full Drum kits (just BFD3 really)
Cymbals & Gongs
Orchestral Drums (timps, field drums, orchestral toms)
Struck Percussion (chimes, triangles. clappers. cowbells).
Chromatic Percussion????
Harps (Concert, Irish..)
Latin Percussion
World Percussion
Found Percussion (e.g. car horn sounds)


As you can see I have avoided the term _"auxillary percussion"_ - which is sometimes used in orchestral settings, because it was too simply a 'catch all' that could catch too much. You could group a lot of Latin percussion here, but would that help in the writing- better to have latin percussion as a genre IMO.


All opinions and advice welcome, esp about the percussion/keyboard issue.

Current Cubase Template CPR Build:


https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ai7g90pI7-tKgeAma9LIITZFrSSSjw

Zero


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## ZeroZero (Nov 2, 2016)

Grizzlymv said:


> Well. Maybe not entirely but to me, the main reason to go with disabled track is to save resources. So a 1:1 ratio makes perfect sense. However as said before, when you get too many kontakt instances, you're getting into trouble waters. A 1:16 ratio to me kind of defeats the purpose as when you disable the track in that scenario it's actually 16 tracks that you disable if I understand it right. Let's say you need only the legato patch, or the short one, you cannot get rid of the other articulations that easily. The same if instead of separated articulation of a same library, I load the multi patch (ex Albion 1 strings hi as 1, strings lo as 2, Albion one strings as 3, etc) to reduce even more the amount of instances and tracks (one track per instruments rather than articulation). I'd still end up with instruments I may not need loaded. Sure there's still the purge feature but that's less convenient. That's what attracted me with the disable feature is the fact that 1 track = one single instrument and then you can get very granular in what you load, use only what you need, while still having everything just one click away. No more needs to organize the content of each kontakt instances etc. I wish kontakt would have a lite / single patch version that would play much nicer with several instances loaded. Or the problem might just be the end user..



I will give this some thought and tests

Zero


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## JohnG (Nov 2, 2016)

I think there's over-thinking taking place. The template world generally is divided into two camps:

1. Likes keyswitch patches, and

2. Doesn't like keyswitch patches.

I personally organise my template top to bottom with a more or less traditional orchestral layout, and put modern instruments (electric guitars, synths) toward the bottom. That's partly because there are so many of the latter and partly out of habit.

I like separate midi channels for each type of articulation, but I deviate from that practice all the time out of haste. I do record the outputs of most short articulations separately from long ones, as many others do, even if the midi isn't separated.

It is not practical with a big template (500-1,000 tracks) to have a separate PLAY or Kontakt instance for each instrument.


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