# Sonokinetic bundle worth it?



## HarmonyCore (Apr 28, 2020)

Sonokinetic bundle includes indie, largo, maximo, and expressivo is on sale right now in NI website.

Is this bundle worth it for epic orchestral production?


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## korruptkey (Apr 28, 2020)

i'm not ready for this... have not recovered from cinesamples sales

but just out of curiosity, have you used sonokinetics phrased based libraries before or are familiar? it's an acquired taste and niche tool.


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## rrichard63 (Apr 28, 2020)

For epic styles specifically, my guess is that Maximo and maybe Espressivo are more relevant than Indie and Largo. As a result, you might find some of the individual products at 50% off a better value than the bundle at 70% off. Of the other ones offered at 50% off, you might look at Capriccio and Grosso. Sonokinetic's demo videos are very well done and worth watching.

As @korruptkey says, these are phrase based tools built on a particular design philosophy. If Sonokinetic's approach works for you, I think they are wonderful.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 28, 2020)

No, I think I will wait for Audio imperia Jaeger and Nucleus sale better but I doubt they will do any.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 28, 2020)

korruptkey said:


> i'm not ready for this... have not recovered from cinesamples sales
> 
> but just out of curiosity, have you used sonokinetics phrased based libraries before or are familiar? it's an acquired taste and niche tool.



LOL
Haven't recovered from CS sale as well. 😁


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## MaxOctane (Apr 28, 2020)

I'm such a sucker for these. I've bought 4 Sonokinetic phrase libs (Minimal, Maximo, Capriccio, Sotto) and I barely ever use them.

Always same thing. I load one up, play a chord... "Oh pretty!!" try different patterns... "So nice!!" Then get frustrated when I chain up 2-3 chords/patterns together that sound great, but it's impossible to find the right voicing for the next chord/pattern I hear in my head.

Then I convince myself I'll use the phrase libs to generate ideas, and I'll do from-scratch patterns using SSO or one of my other 300 orch libs... but I never do :-\

I'll prob still buy Largo though! 

Edit: Bought Largo. _Oh Pretty!! So nice!!_


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2020)

I find them useful in small doses. And they are better for pads, the flowing (or not so flowing) sounds in the background where they blend in where it's hard to program the parts. At least to me. 

The other thing I like them for is they give you midi for the phrases so you can use their phrases, then add other parts with the same midi but different instruments. And learn how to write midi for orchestral music. The Ostinatos and modal runs are great too, if you don't have another run/ostinato builder.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 28, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> I'm such a sucker for these. I've bought 4 Sonokinetic phrase libs (Minimal, Maximo, Capriccio, Sotto) and I barely ever use them.
> 
> Always same thing. I load one up, play a chord... "Oh pretty!!" try different patterns... "So nice!!" Then get frustrated when I chain up 2-3 chords/patterns together that sound great, but it's impossible to find the right voicing for the next chord/pattern I hear in my head.
> 
> ...



Actually, I am trying to be wise these days and stop spending cash on libraries that I will never use, that's why I am investigating these libraries. In my opinion, spending money on libraries that you will never use is like heroin addiction that is hard to control. Now, I am just focusing on the libraries that I really need. Audio imperia jaeger and nucleus are the missing important components in my library catalog. Once I purchase them, beleive me I won't buy new libraries for at least 3 years. The real skill is to compose tens of music pieces using just one library.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 28, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I find them useful in small doses. And they are better for pads, the flowing (or not so flowing) sounds in the background where they blend in where it's hard to program the parts. At least to me.
> 
> The other thing I like them for is they give you midi for the phrases so you can use their phrases, then add other parts with the same midi but different instruments. And learn how to write midi for orchestral music. The Ostinatos and modal runs are great too, if you don't have another run/ostinato builder.



I am very satisfied with Action Strings for Ostinato phrases. Not perfect but I make couple of pieces out of it.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Actually, I am trying to be wise these days and stop spending cash on libraries that I will never use, that's why I am investigating these libraries. In my opinion, spending money on libraries that you will never use is like heroin addiction that is hard to control. Now, I am just focusing on the libraries that I really need. Audio imperia jaeger and nucleus are the missing important components in my library catalog. Once I purchase them, beleive me I won't buy new libraries for at least 3 years. The real skill is to compose tens of music pieces using just one library.


I get Jaeger for epic, but not so much Nucleus. It seems you have most of what Nucleus would cover with the CS bundle. I'd use that money for something like Ark 1.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 28, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I get Jaeger for epic, but not so much Nucleus. It seems you have most of what Nucleus would cover with the CS bundle. I'd use that money for something like Ark 1.



Ahh Good point.
I have Ark 1&2 and Albion one. The reason I mentioned Nucleus is that I want to have at least one classical (not epic) orchestral library. Some epic pieces are still heavily using classical instruments. Not all epic though. What do you think?

EDIT: Yes the CS bundle covers me well. Nucleus is just different cool sounds lol or am I getting libraries greedy again?


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Ahh Good point.
> I have Ark 1&2 and Albion one. The reason I mentioned Nucleus is that I want to have at least one classical (not epic) orchestral library. Some epic pieces are still heavily using classical instruments. Not all epic though. What do you think?
> 
> EDIT: Yes the CS bundle covers me well. Nucleus is just different cool sounds lol or am I getting libraries greedy again?


I really can't talk because I have more stuff than I will ever use. You sound pretty set. I think of Nucleus as an intro library. A good one, but maybe not enough dynamic layers and round robins? It's one of the ones I don't have, so I can't really say. It came out after I bought SSO, so I didn't really need it. 

It is actually good to have multiple libraries that can be layered, and individual sections. Nucleus will give you that. Unlike some of the other intro libraries, it isn't ensemble patches. And it does get a lot of good reviews here. I would wait for a sale though.


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## Montisquirrel (Apr 29, 2020)

To answer your question: Yes, these libraries are totally worth it. This price (70% on the bundle) is also the lowest I have ever seen. They have a great christmas sale every year with up to 60% on one or two libraries, but not 70% for 4 of them. 

They have tons of videos for each library on YouTube with lots of examples which should definetly answer your question. This libraries are unique and they have a special workflow and I understand if someone dont needs them. 

Sonokinetic is also an awesome company with a very good reputation across composers.


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## Robert Kooijman (Apr 29, 2020)

The Sonokinetic phrases sound pristine and are very well played & recorded. However, I find it frustratingly difficult to use them in an actual composition. The IMO weird and complicated GUI doesn't help either and puts a break on creativity. 

With so many non-phrase libs available having tons of articulations, why bother with phrases at all?


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 29, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> To answer your question: Yes, these libraries are totally worth it. This price (70% on the bundle) is also the lowest I have ever seen. They have a great christmas sale every year with up to 60% on one or two libraries, but not 70% for 4 of them.
> 
> They have tons of videos for each library on YouTube with lots of examples which should definetly answer your question. This libraries are unique and they have a special workflow and I understand if someone dont needs them.
> 
> Sonokinetic is also an awesome company with a very good reputation across composers.



Yes, 70% is crazy but not every library has a sale suits me. I checked their YouTube even before posting this thread but couldn't imagine where and when to use these phrased sounds in my compositions. But to be honest, I didn't check them thoroughly. I think I will wait for Jaeger and Nucleus sale as they are the highest priority at the momen.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 29, 2020)

Robert Kooijman said:


> The Sonokinetic phrases sound pristine and are very well played & recorded. However, I find it frustratingly difficult to use them in an actual composition. The IMO weird and complicated GUI doesn't help either and puts a break on creativity.
> 
> With so many non-phrase libs available having tons of articulations, why bother with phrases at all?



Exactly which makes them not of a high priority to me. Just wanted to make sure that I am not missing much.


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## bryla (Apr 29, 2020)

I have gotten some of their libraries through a couple of years of 12 days of christmas sales.
I'm sorry to see that none of their phrase libraries are on my HD anymore. They never seem to fit what I have written. Either the rhythm is wrong or the chord voicing or bass note. Often the orchestration doesn't fit or is actually not well done.

Also I'm not fond of phrases that contain too much of a melodic content so I'm more on Robert's side: if you want a pattern it's much easier to open a string staccato patch from Albion and just play/program it in.

As an orchestrator every time I've received files from a composer who used sonokinetic libraries like these I always ended up dropping all their content from the actual arrangement.


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## Pietro (Apr 29, 2020)

I know I can't be objective, but I use Sonokinetic phrased libraries quite freely. I find them really inspiring. And the way this stuff can fill in your arrangements and mockups is often hard to do or time consuming with multisamples. Sometimes, it's just a common solo cello arpeggio, that's so simple musically, yet impossible to mockup.

I believe, once you are over the left hand chord smashing phase, you'll find a lot of that stuff useful. And they are a great source for tonal, ambient pads. Most of the time, I'll pick the stuff that will stand out less. On the other hand, Ostinato stuff is really useful, especially strings. Sometimes I leave it in, sometimes I burry it in the mix and sometimes, I redo with multisamples and get rid of it completely in the end.

Of course, these are most likely not for people that can already do all that with multisamples. But even then, if you are stuck sometimes and browsing through sounds inspires you, this can get you unstuck too.

- Piotr


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 29, 2020)

I love them, and have several of their libraries. As mentioned by Piotr, they often spark inspiration, and also blend nicely with my other libraries. My only complaint about their phrase based libraries is that it’s often a struggle to get the timing correct. If you quantize the triads (which are what you play to trigger a phrase for a given chord), they usually don’t play back in the right timing. You have to manually play them in, it’s a “feel” thing.


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I love them, and have several of their libraries. As mentioned by Piotr, they often spark inspiration, and also blend nicely with my other libraries. My only complaint about their phrase based libraries is that it’s often a struggle to get the timing correct. If you quantize the triads (which are what you play to trigger a phrase for a given chord), they usually don’t play back in the right timing. You have to manually play them in, it’s a “feel” thing.


Yes we definitely recommend playing them - we try to keep the played feel in there and that generally means phrases start a little before the beat. So even if you don't want to play them but rather program them in, it will pay dividends to drag them a bit before the beat for the smoothest transitions


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## szurcio (Apr 29, 2020)

Is it even possible to edit the melodic motifs in something like Sonokinetic Indie and have Indie play the modified motif? Then it would be more feasible to build a full melodic line for a part. Or is it only supposed to be used for ostinatos/background with a "real" multisampled library? It seems like Indie would be a nice complement to British Drama Toolkit or Tundra (similar tonal character)


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2020)

szurcio said:


> Is it even possible to edit the melodic motifs in something like Sonokinetic Indie and have Indie play the modified motif? Then it would be more feasible to build a full melodic line for a part. Or is it only supposed to be used for ostinatos/background with a "real" multisampled library? It seems like Indie would be a nice complement to British Drama Toolkit or Tundra (similar tonal character)


You can "edit" in two ways. Drag the midi, adjust it, and use another instrument. Or bounce it to audio and edit the audio with your DAW. They pretty much all have drag to midi available now.


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## Peter Williams (Apr 29, 2020)

I only have Espressivo. It's chock full of phrases that would be impossible to recreate using conventional libraries. The only problem: almost no one likes that edgy, kinetic and dissonant sound that I often find soothing, thoughtful and inspiring. I've used material from that library as a basis for fairly large projects, the way a pop composer uses a drum track as a baseline for a conventional tune. I keep looking at Sotto, but I have a hard time figuring out how I would actually use it, as it does not lend itself well to continuity of thought and idea development. It just sounds pretty, inviting me to add more voices to chords and add counter motion and such. I don't do much minimalism, so that leaves out an obvious option. Their other libraries might work for film scores, but they too have those same continuity issues.


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 29, 2020)

szurcio said:


> Is it even possible to edit the melodic motifs in something like Sonokinetic Indie and have Indie play the modified motif? Then it would be more feasible to build a full melodic line for a part. Or is it only supposed to be used for ostinatos/background with a "real" multisampled library? It seems like Indie would be a nice complement to British Drama Toolkit or Tundra (similar tonal character)


they are very much meant to be played.. the demo I did for Indie is using only Indie



no other instruments added. The way you can switch between phrases and chords on the fly makes them very playable and malleable - not as much as multisampled instruments of course, but you do get a very real sound as an upside, and it can provide great inspiration


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## AndyP (Apr 29, 2020)

So far I have Largo, Indie, Minimal, Modal Runs and String, Brass and Noir Ostinato.
I have had a hard time with the more melodic phrases so far. Since I use this only for a basic structure I sometimes miss a bit more variation in a phrase.

The limitation to major and minor chords is also sometimes limiting.

I wonder which of the following libraries offers the most pure rhythmic elements with a bit more ooomph, less melodic.

Grosso, Maximo or Capriccio.

Sotto has nice rhythmic elements, but sounds a bit too well-behaved to me.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 29, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I love them, and have several of their libraries. As mentioned by Piotr, they often spark inspiration, and also blend nicely with my other libraries. My only complaint about their phrase based libraries is that it’s often a struggle to get the timing correct. If you quantize the triads (which are what you play to trigger a phrase for a given chord), they usually don’t play back in the right timing. You have to manually play them in, it’s a “feel” thing.


 
Oh Lord, sounds like torturing. I know exactly what you mean and I am trying my best to avoid such phrased libraries. It sucks your time.


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## AndyP (Apr 29, 2020)

Grosso, Capriccio .. or both ... ?


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Grosso, Capriccio .. or both ... ?


I like Capriccio the best because it seems like the most basic flowy orchestra. Mid level sound - i.e. not soft, not loud, just what you expect for an orchestral sound. Grosso is louder and will do the epic sounds. But not the quieter. 

If you do mostly standard orchestral cues or pieces, Capriccio is probably better. If you do epic orchestral cues or pieces, go with Grosso. And? I usually listen to a play-through of the patches. Although I think I now own most of them....


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## AndyP (Apr 29, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I like Capriccio the best because it seems like the most basic flowy orchestra. Mid level sound - i.e. not soft, not loud, just what you expect for an orchestral sound. Grosso is louder and will do the epic sounds. But not the quieter.
> 
> If you do mostly standard orchestral cues or pieces, Capriccio is probably better. If you do epic orchestral cues or pieces, go with Grosso. And? I usually listen to a play-through of the patches. Although I think I now own most of them....


Both attributes fit. Epic and classic. The rhythmic bed seems to be quite good for both. 
I like the transition builder in Grosso. The runs in Capriccio don't appeal to me so much, I'm well equipped.

And then I get the idea how difficult it is to integrate the phrases into already existing compositions.
What I found remarkable was the DAW cast of Le Avventura Grosso by Sacha Knorr. He actually only used Grosso and Da Capo. I have Da Capo too, but I rarely use it. Both libraries seemed to work very well together.

To get ideas, however, the libraries are very good. And some phrases of it are not so easy to play convincingly by yourself, if at all. 

Let's see, I think I'll start with Grosso, for Capriccio there's still time until May 12th.

I was hoping for these two in the last x-mas sale. Now they are just a little later in the sale.


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## LudovicVDP (Apr 29, 2020)

Was ranting about missing the first sale on Modal Runs... Not missing this one.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2020)

Okay, looking at both, Capriccio can do loud. It also has high, mid and low for each of the main sections (Strings, winds, brass) Grosso only has high and low. So you have more sound options. 

But then, I have both. If you end up liking Sonokinetic stuff, they do have sales every so often and the 12 Days of Christmas, which is always great.


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## k4music (Apr 29, 2020)

I have few Sonokinetic instruments and i like them very much.

I wish there is an upgrade path to the bundle for any previous owners of any products in the bundle. It will definitely make existing customers happy.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 29, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Oh Lord, sounds like torturing. I know exactly what you mean and I am trying my best to avoid such phrased libraries. It sucks your time.



Even though it's a PITA, it's totally worth it once you learn the workarounds.


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## method1 (Apr 29, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> they are very much meant to be played.. the demo I did for Indie is using only Indie
> 
> 
> 
> no other instruments added. The way you can switch between phrases and chords on the fly makes them very playable and malleable - not as much as multisampled instruments of course, but you do get a very real sound as an upside, and it can provide great inspiration




Where would a piece like this stand in regard to the licensing agreement, since no external sound sources are added?


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2020)

k4music said:


> I have few Sonokinetic instruments and i like them very much.
> 
> I wish there is an upgrade path to the bundle for any previous owners of any products in the bundle. It will definitely make existing customers happy.


The problem is, with these NI sales, the company gives control over to NI for all these products while the sale is on. They have no control over things like upgrades. It has come up a few times in the past.


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 29, 2020)

method1 said:


> Where would a piece like this stand in regard to the licensing agreement, since no external sound sources are added?


It's all layered and played in context which is fine - what the license agreement is mostly there to prevent is people making 'compositions' out of the raw base materials and distributing those. So basically it's there as a stick to make sure people use it only for what it's used for (making music).

The melodies you hear are achieved by changing chords in the middle of phrases using Harmonic shift - these phrases in this case are melodic in nature, but used here to create new melodies. You can really get quite creative with that


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## k4music (Apr 29, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> The problem is, with these NI sales, the company gives control over to NI for all these products while the sale is on. They have no control over things like upgrades. It has come up a few times in the past.


True, I understand. Ultimately existing customer will be very thankful and happy if there is an upgrade path. So i feel it would be great if both the companies create upgrade path for existing customers.


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## x-dfo (Apr 29, 2020)

Do all these libs play well with DAW bpm?


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## AndyP (Apr 29, 2020)

Got Grosso now. While I rummaged on the NI site again I realized that I don't have Espressivo yet.
Since I have VSL Black Eye in the pipeline I have to sleep on it again.

What bothers me about Espressivo is that the tuning is a bit complicated. But I also understand that it would have been difficult to realize the concept in any other way. So you either have to define a controller for it, or you use an instance with several tunings and more for the other articulations.

Apart from that I think Espressivo is great. Still has a bit of time.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 29, 2020)

Great discussion everyone.
Thanks for all the inputs.

I decided to hold my horses and invest in what I need the most which is jaeger and nucleus. May be I will consider sonokinetic deals in Christmas 2020. I don't feel I need these phrased libraries now. I hope to see audio imperia's summer sale soon.


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## Akcel (Apr 30, 2020)

This is an exciting discussion! I'm curious about Sonokinetic's libraries even if the interface really scares me! I own Albion One and I wanted to know if you think it would be easy to combine Sonokinetic's sounds with those of Spitfire?


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## BradHoyt (Apr 30, 2020)

I've seen this special... and the discounts... But I'm not sure I'd ever use them. It should be noted though I'm not facing hard deadlines where using Sonokinetic would be helpful to create quick mock ups that sound good. 

There's also a philosophical question here too.. Is using a "phrase" library where you are literally using whole chunks of fully written and arranged symphonic passages "cheating" when it comes to writing your own original compositions? Sure, you can claim it legally since you have the right to use these fully arranged passages, and I totally understand how they can be super helpful for the working media composer, but for someone whose main purpose is to 100% compose and arrange their own original music, Snagging fully arranged segments of music and fitting them together like a puzzle rings false to me...

Anyway, I'd like to emphasize that I'm not sticking my nose up at anyone who use Sonokinetic's stuff! lol I can totally understand the value in their products. It's just that, in my personal view, I would prefer not to use such fully realized musical ideas when I'm composing my own music. Does this make sense? 

Cheers!


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 30, 2020)

BradHoyt said:


> I've seen this special... and the discounts... But I'm not sure I'd ever use them. It should be noted though I'm not facing hard deadlines where using Sonokinetic would be helpful to create quick mock ups that sound good.
> 
> There's also a philosophical question here too.. Is using a "phrase" library where you are literally using whole chunks of fully written and arranged symphonic passages "cheating" when it comes to writing your own original compositions? Sure, you can claim it legally since you have the right to use these fully arranged passages, and I totally understand how they can be super helpful for the working media composer, but for someone whose main purpose is to 100% compose and arrange their own original music, Snagging fully arranged segments of music and fitting them together like a puzzle rings false to me...
> 
> ...


Just want to reply to the 'fully composed' comment, while this may have been somewhat true for our first library vivace, the later products have been far more split out and are very versatile and playable. This is an old discussion of course, but just wanted to note that these are not 'construction kit' type loop collections but rather playable instruments that require considerable skill and artistic ability to use


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## BradHoyt (Apr 30, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> Just want to reply to the 'fully composed' comment, while this may have been somewhat true for our first library vivace, the later products have been far more split out and are very versatile and playable. This is an old discussion of course, but just wanted to note that these are not 'construction kit' type loop collections but rather playable instruments that require considerable skill and artistic ability to use


That makes sense. Looks like my perception doesn't exactly match the reality.


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## NekujaK (Apr 30, 2020)

I've always loved the "idea" behind the Sonokinetic phrase libraries, but had a difficult time grasping how I would actually make practical use out of them. Thanks to their very generous (and fun) Christmas sales, it was fairly painless to acquire a few of their libraries, and fast-forwarding to now... I have purchased nearly all of their phrase-based libraries.

Do I use them all the time? No, but they have come in very handy in certain situations. I find them especially useful when I need to insert individual parts into a larger piece that I am unable to write myself, or that would take too much time for me to figure out how to write/arrange. I find this especially true of woodwond parts - throwing in a few Sonokinetic woodwind phrases in appropriate places really helps to polish the overall sound. But that's just me - I'm simply not adept at writing for woodwinds.

That said, for the last few months, I've been doing sound design and mixing for an indie film project. A couple of weeks ago, the director approached me and said they still need music for the film's opening titles, so I offered to submit some ideas. I ended up giving them 5 choices - 2 that were already in my library plus 3 new pieces. For one of the new compositions, I decided to use Sonokinetic's Indie almost exclusively. I sort of did it on a lark, since I've never successfully put a piece together when starting out with a phrase library. But guess what - that's the one they picked!

Here's my humble request to @Sonokinetic BV - please post some videos that walk thru the entire end-to-end composing process using your phrase-based libraries. I would use them much more often if I had a better understanding of what an effective compositional workflow is with these libraries. At the moment, my process is very hit-and-miss and the results are very inconsistent.


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 30, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> I've always loved the "idea" behind the Sonokinetic phrase libraries, but had a difficult time grasping how I would actually make practical use out of them. Thanks to their very generous (and fun) Christmas sales, it was fairly painless to acquire a few of their libraries, and fast-forwarding to now... I have purchased nearly all of their phrase-based libraries.
> 
> Do I use them all the time? No, but they have come in very handy in certain situations. I find them especially useful when I need to insert individual parts into a larger piece that I am unable to write myself, or that would take too much time for me to figure out how to write/arrange. I find this especially true of woodwond parts - throwing in a few Sonokinetic woodwind phrases in appropriate places really helps to polish the overall sound. But that's just me - I'm simply not adept at writing for woodwinds.
> 
> ...


We're definitely looking into that, into streamlining our help content and making more resources available so people can make the most of the products. This composing idea has also come up and I think it's a very good idea. We might group a couple of products and do it that way.

I myself have had this 'revelation' when watching some youtubers use our instruments and I was really itching to span the commenst with every detail of how they could better make use of them. Also seeing some of these instruments we did years ago, and all the little intricacies in there that are there to solve some particular workflow problem or make some particular use possible - we really should put more effort into explaining those. But where to start 

First thing that is coming live soon is a categorisation of the excellent videos Reuben did so it is easier to find a particular subject on the help section of the website, but we also want to do some new overarching help videos that just point at some 'best practices'. I have been doing some '30 second Creator Tips' videos that we are still aiming to put out there but I need to find more time to do those, or have them done by someone with a better voice and less of an accent (i might actually post one here so you guys can comment on whether that direction would be considered useful)

actually here's two attached now - let me know your thoughts!
View attachment 30SecCreatorTip_01_howtostart.mp4

View attachment 30SecCreatorTip_02_howtoend.mp4


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## BradHoyt (Apr 30, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> Just want to reply to the 'fully composed' comment, while this may have been somewhat true for our first library vivace, the later products have been far more split out and are very versatile and playable. This is an old discussion of course, but just wanted to note that these are not 'construction kit' type loop collections but rather playable instruments that require considerable skill and artistic ability to use


BTW: Just snagged Watchmaker... I'm actually writing music based on a steampunk Victorian mystery now and this will come in handy.


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## AndyP (Apr 30, 2020)

BradHoyt said:


> There's also a philosophical question here too.. Is using a "phrase" library where you are literally using whole chunks of fully written and arranged symphonic passages "cheating" when it comes to writing your own original compositions?


No. 
I don't see it that way. I look at this phrase library more like an ostinato tool.
And as an inspiration tool.
If the phrases represent something I want to play myself in one way or another, but the phrases sound better, why not?


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## NekujaK (Apr 30, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> We're definitely looking into that, into streamlining our help content and making more resources available so people can make the most of the products. This composing idea has also come up and I think it's a very good idea. We might group a couple of products and do it that way.
> 
> I myself have had this 'revelation' when watching some youtubers use our instruments and I was really itching to span the commenst with every detail of how they could better make use of them. Also seeing some of these instruments we did years ago, and all the little intricacies in there that are there to solve some particular workflow problem or make some particular use possible - we really should put more effort into explaining those. But where to start
> 
> ...



These two example videos are helpful with respect to working with the technical aspects of the libraries. More like this can never hurt - and I wouldn't necessarily strictly limit them to just 30 seconds. If more time is necessary to explain something, then a 60 or 90 second video is perfectly fine.

BTW, I don't have any problem with your accent  But the narration does sound a bit muffled. A little corrective EQ can fix that.

I'm glad to hear you've been thinking about compositional workflow videos. I would find them extremely useful - so I encourage you to definitely go down that path!

Thanks and keep up the great work!


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## dzilizzi (Apr 30, 2020)

BradHoyt said:


> BTW: Just snagged Watchmaker... I'm actually writing music based on a steampunk Victorian mystery now and this will come in handy.


I actually use Watchmaker a lot as a base percussion/click track. I really hate normal click tracks and the tick, tick, tick, sound is perfect for me!


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## BradHoyt (Apr 30, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I actually use Watchmaker a lot as a base percussion/click track. I really hate normal click tracks and the tick, tick, tick, sound is perfect for me!


Interesting..! I think I'll try that and see what it's like. Thanks.


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## Sir Hannes (Apr 30, 2020)

Hi,

I am answering as I used this forum for the same question a long while ago.

I own Capriccio, Da Capo, Maximo, Espressivo, Tutti Vox, Ostinato's and more. I tried to add to existing orchestral stuff, to hybrid, to electronic and other music styles. All their interfaces slow me down and let me start thinking how to reach a special goal, convert my idea into sound - that's totally poison to my creative workflow and no joy to me. Then as people here wrote already: often the phrases don't fit. I dived deeper working on one horror movie and after hours working I was really annoyed that Da Capo misses a trumpet I'd need to set on top of a full layer of phrases - I think I asked here in the forum other users if I am missing the point. In all Sonokinetic stuff I couldn't find one, so I went to another library - and did not return.
So for me with that high price tag at NI I personally can't recommend. If you're a phrase builder, this still might be worth if your time matters. ("phrase builder" has no negative rating to me)
Hope my personal opinion might help you with your decision.

I want to mention: I listend to the Demos on NI and was surprised about the fullness and richness of some libraries I own. To me it seems, most Demos were produced recently. Sometimes only the last and often shortest Demo track let me recognize that specific library. I haven't found any hint on how many other libraries were used, which should be a must to be trustful - at least to me.

All the best and stay safe
Johannes


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 30, 2020)

Sir Hannes said:


> I haven't found any hint on how many other libraries were used, which should be a must to be trustful - at least to me.


That's why on our website almost all demos have a lib only version available too when you scroll down the demo list 
It's definitely true that you need to invest some time to get the most out of these libraries, but if you do they can really make your tracks shine, as the demos attest to... Just responding to the trustful comment I guess, we pride ourselves in being very much trustful


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## Manuel Stumpf (Apr 30, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> Here's my humble request to @Sonokinetic BV - please post some videos that walk thru the entire end-to-end composing process using your phrase-based libraries.


+1 for this request. Showcasing the composing process would be interesting.


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## axb312 (Apr 30, 2020)

Hi @Sonokinetic BV Why exclude the woodwinds from this sale? :(


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 30, 2020)

axb312 said:


> Hi @Sonokinetic BV Why exclude the woodwinds from this sale? :(


We picked instruments together with NI that would complement what's in their store already. Maybe at some point we'll get the woodwinds in there as well. There's going to be a free major update to the woodwinds once the strings are done too


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## AndyP (Apr 30, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> That's why on our website almost all demos have a lib only version available too when you scroll down the demo list
> It's definitely true that you need to invest some time to get the most out of these libraries, but if you do they can really make your tracks shine, as the demos attest to... Just responding to the trustful comment I guess, we pride ourselves in being very much trustful


I found the DAW casts for the demos very helpful. Once with additional instruments, once without.
Sascha did a great job with Grosso and Da Capo. 
What you really have to learn is how to use the additional keyswitches. 
This is certainly a lot easier with an NKS keyboard.


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## bryla (Apr 30, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> There's going to be a free major update to the woodwinds once the strings are done too


That's good to hear! What specific is this update including?


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## Sonokinetic BV (Apr 30, 2020)

bryla said:


> That's good to hear! What specific is this update including?


we're writing a whole new engine for the strings that will also drive the Woodwinds, it's going to be much smoother and have some additional functionality that I can't (won't) disclose here yet


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## Zero&One (Apr 30, 2020)

Akcel said:


> This is an exciting discussion! I'm curious about Sonokinetic's libraries even if the interface really scares me! I own Albion One and I wanted to know if you think it would be easy to combine Sonokinetic's sounds with those of Spitfire?



The interface is different yes, but watch the corresponding tutorial to each library and you'll find them very easy. They all look very different, but all function the same way. So once you know one.

I find they work fine with other libraries. As long as you are mindful of how much you add.
Which I find people sometimes miss with these. There's a tendency to slap all sections in, as that's what the tutorials show? But they are just showcasing the full library.
An intro could be just 1 section pattern, maybe evolving into 2. Then add in your own parts from this inspiration. Want extra from a pattern? Drag the midi in, then using other libraries and add your own notes. That's how i approach these. I don't see or use them as an 'all buttons in' solution, although they certainly can do this. Once you get your head around the harmonic shift function, you really start to notice how deep these are from initial view of 'these play everything for me' viewpoint.
Hope that helps.


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## with_joerg (Apr 30, 2020)

If I buy libraries from this special offer, will they show up in my Sonokietic Account Center and will I be able to get upgrades in the future or not?


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## AndyP (Apr 30, 2020)

with_joerg said:


> If I buy libraries from this special offer, will they show up in my Sonokietic Account Center and will I be able to get upgrades in the future or not?


YES.


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## AndyP (Apr 30, 2020)

I like Grosso , it does exactly what I hoped.
It's great for rhythmic beds.
And from that point of view, a real time-saver.
It also works great with Largo, fits like a glove.

It is important to avoid overlaps, then sometimes the note changes don't work. Often it doesn't work completely without post-processing (note edit). But once you understand how it works, it's fun.

I am also quite impressed with how well Da Capo harmonizes. I rarely use Da Capo with other libraries, but with the Sonokinetic lIbraries it works very well.
It also gives the variety of building string ostinatos by combining phrases with self split tracks.
It's so simple and effective in terms of time.

And as Zero&One has already pointed out, it's better to separate the sections and not do it all at once. Then you can edit the single tracks with controllers. This is essential to make it sound convincing.

I was very sceptical about the phrases because I was a bit afraid that they would limit me too much.
But there are certain "standards" that can be created very easily. Without harmonic shift there would be much more limitation.

A learning curve is definitely there. Once you understand the concept it goes very well.

So from my point of view not comparable to normal loop libraries. Here you have much more control and flexibility.

With The Orchestra I quite often export my ostinatos to replace the instruments. Here I like the sound well enough to do without a midi export.

I can't do everything with these libraries, but for some tracks this is a great thing. But, it works better if I start with the Sonokinetic libraries. If I try to integrate them into other tracks it is much harder.

This is my experience so far.

However, one should keep in mind that the hunger for resources is quite respectable.

Great value for the money. I guess I'll add Espressivo as well.


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## markleake (Apr 30, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> we're writing a whole new engine for the strings that will also drive the Woodwinds, it's going to be much smoother and have some additional functionality that I can't (won't) disclose here yet


Sounds good, I'm excited! I use your woodwinds a fair bit. Not that I write a lot, but they are often in tracks I do create. They are very good. I wish there were more instruments.

If I can put in a request for any GUI rework...
- please oh please, make the volume sliders for mics and the key clicks bigger and more accessible!
- and about the key click volume, I often turn it down to one notch above silent using that miniscule controller, and it is still too loud. Making that volume more fine tenable at lower volume would be good.


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## markleake (Apr 30, 2020)

On topic, I think the phrase libraries are great, I'd jump at their bundle sale especially if I didn't already have half of them.

I use them as a background to composing, but often leave them in the mix, sometimes more present, sometime less.

Most of the different libraries have some variety to them. Especially Minimal and Sotto libraries you can usually find something that is not very melodic and it goes very well with many tracks.

I second the comment above about using the woodwind phrases. These are very easy and helpful to add some colour to a track, so long as you don't use them too extensively.

Same goes for adding some rhythm... the strings, both low and high, are good at adding interest pretty easily after the fact, if your track is lacking some rhythm.

The sound quality and playing is top notch, so using these libraries sparingly, without expecting too much of them, can add some much needed realism to a track.


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## x-dfo (May 1, 2020)

Which of these allows you to export or drag the midi in?


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## dzilizzi (May 1, 2020)

x-dfo said:


> Which of these allows you to export or drag the midi in?


Pretty much all of the phrase based ones and the Ostinatos. I think you can do it with the Modal Runs as well.

The non-phrase libraries don't have phrases, so no midi.


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## MaxOctane (May 1, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> I'm such a sucker for these. I load one up, play a chord... "Oh pretty!!" try different patterns... "So nice!!"
> 
> Edit: Bought Largo. _Oh Pretty!! So nice!!_



And so I present to you: *"Two Chords of Largo"*

__


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## Sonokinetic BV (May 1, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Pretty much all of the phrase based ones and the Ostinatos. I think you can do it with the Modal Runs as well.
> 
> The non-phrase libraries don't have phrases, so no midi.


Modal runs not yet, but it will be added in a future update


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## Rex282 (May 1, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> Modal runs not yet, but it will be added in a future update


LOVE Modal runs can’t wait!


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## Akcel (May 1, 2020)

This topic makes me more and more curious about Sonokinetic banks. I wonder if I'm not going to fall for this promotion to discover their particular universe.

On the other hand, I've been listening to Sotto's demos and I think he should have been present in the bundle currently offered instead of Espressivo for example. I wouldn't want to lack nuance in my music if I buy this bundle.


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## creativeforge (May 1, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> These two example videos are helpful with respect to working with the technical aspects of the libraries. More like this can never hurt - and I wouldn't necessarily strictly limit them to just 30 seconds. If more time is necessary to explain something, then a 60 or 90 second video is perfectly fine.
> 
> BTW, I don't have any problem with your accent  But the narration does sound a bit muffled. A little corrective EQ can fix that.
> 
> ...



Love the idea of those short tips videos! Maybe speaking a little bit slower, and like you speak to a class, projecting your voice rather than into a headset mic?  

Thanks Sonokinetic!


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## Rex282 (May 2, 2020)

Akcel said:


> This topic makes me more and more curious about Sonokinetic banks. I wonder if I'm not going to fall for this promotion to discover their particular universe.
> 
> On the other hand, I've been listening to Sotto's demos and I think he should have been present in the bundle currently offered instead of Espressivo for example. I wouldn't want to lack nuance in my music if I buy this bundle.


 A little tip/warning..the Sono librarys are highly addictive.I'ts very doubtful you can buy just one...or ten


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## with_joerg (May 2, 2020)

I still do not understand the license. Fot example, Noir contais a solo section with solos. The SC lc agreement says "You are not allowed to record, publicly perform, make available, broadcast or otherwise reproduce or communicate the Products as single, isolated sounds. " -- that would basically render the solos unusable by license. No?


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## Sonokinetic BV (May 2, 2020)

with_joerg said:


> I still do not understand the license. Fot example, Noir contais a solo section with solos. The SC lc agreement says "You are not allowed to record, publicly perform, make available, broadcast or otherwise reproduce or communicate the Products as single, isolated sounds. " -- that would basically render the solos unusable by license. No?


You can use them in combination with anything, they are meant to go on top of arrangements, will work well with anything from orchestral arrangements to just a double bass as accompaniment.
Also if you happen to use one on its own in an intro or outro somewhere that's completely fine. The eula is there to protect us (sonokinetic) from people trying to steal our material and sell it as their own product, it's not there to constrict people trying to make music with the products in any way. Music making is what they are for and basically any type of musical context is allowed within the eula I hope that assures you somewhat...


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## Peter Williams (May 3, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> Just want to reply to the 'fully composed' comment, while this may have been somewhat true for our first library vivace, the later products have been far more split out and are very versatile and playable. This is an old discussion of course, but just wanted to note that these are not 'construction kit' type loop collections but rather playable instruments that require considerable skill and artistic ability to use


Very much so. You judiciously choose and lay out the phrases in a compatible manner, adjust them, and then you play them, just as you would any other single patch. Only you are triggering sections of your orchestra in varied ways. It's great fun and very productive. A lot of thought went into selecting the chosen phrases and their possible combinations.


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## with_joerg (May 3, 2020)

Eventually it comes down to the fact that western music consists of predictable patterns. Our brains feel rewarded when it predeicts any of these patterns/pattern changes right while listening music. We enjoy this. Comprehensive phrase libraries make it eassier to achieve patterns that flatter the brain. They have dynamics and interpretation built-in (something that I imagine very difficult to program - if not impossible - in a note by note approach). To me phrase based libraries give you a huge amount of patterns that you can alternate between repeating and varying on many temporal scales. Also phrase based libraries are imho great to study the toolkits (aka: 'patterns') that 'real' composers would use. Just my 2 cent.


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## rrichard63 (May 3, 2020)

with_joerg said:


> ... phrase based libraries are imho great to study the toolkits (aka: 'patterns') that 'real' composers would use ...


This.


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## Akcel (May 3, 2020)

Maybe I'm wrong because I've never used Sonokinetic libraries, but rather than falling for this promotion on the Native Instruments website, wouldn't the Ostinatos series be a better first contact with the company?


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## with_joerg (May 3, 2020)

Akcel said:


> Maybe I'm wrong because I've never used Sonokinetic libraries, but rather than falling for this promotion on the Native Instruments website, wouldn't the Ostinatos series be a better first contact with the company?



Well, the Ostinato libs do what it says: They let you build nice Ostinatos. Nothing more. It depends if you have a use case for it or not. I personally think one of their bigger orchestral libraries are a better entry point. I simply love it to be carried away by phrases, chord transitions and layers for days on end. SC has also an imho very under rated entry level orchestral library that is not phrase based: Da Capo. Not matter what it does or not does, it is a stunt price.


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## peladio (May 3, 2020)

Robert Kooijman said:


> The Sonokinetic phrases sound pristine and are very well played & recorded. However, I find it frustratingly difficult to use them in an actual composition. The IMO weird and complicated GUI doesn't help either and puts a break on creativity.
> 
> With so many non-phrase libs available having tons of articulations, why bother with phrases at all?



I completely agree with this and I'm not even a purist..I use what sounds good and fits my workflow. I find Sonokinetic libraries useful in small doses but most often they are replaced with good old standard libraries..so much easier to work with..


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## with_joerg (May 4, 2020)

Since the guys from sonokinetic seem to be reading here; - I have one question. Now, for example Sotto that supposedly has an engine very similar to Grosso can only play major and minor triads. You cannot do something like G7. I understand that in theory you can using this harmonic shift thing that to me feels as unnatural as plastic. However, in Noir you can just play G7 etc. and it works just fine. Are there any roadmaps to bring Grosso to the same level? Is the Indie engine here more like Grosso/Sotto or more like Noir?


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## Sonokinetic BV (May 4, 2020)

with_joerg said:


> Since the guys from sonokinetic seem to be reading here; - I have one question. Now, for example Sotto that supposedly has an engine very similar to Grosso can only play major and minor triads. You cannot do something like G7. I understand that in theory you can using this harmonic shift thing that to me feels as unnatural as plastic. However, in Noir you can just play G7 etc. and it works just fine. Are there any roadmaps to bring Grosso to the same level? Is the Indie engine here more like Grosso/Sotto or more like Noir?


yep we're reading 
when we were doing Noir we wanted the option to put in extra colors in the dominant chords because the harmonic content of the style required that. Many phrases for Noir are therefor recorded not only in Major and Minor, but we recorded a separate dominant version too to allow for that. Noir is the only library we did that for.
The harmonic shift happened when we were thinking during the composition phase how we could do different chord types, and how the upper structure of chords is often interchangeable - we could do different chords with the same recordings in certain cases, depending on the tonal material inside the phrase. If for example a phrase is just doing c - e - c - e, that could be part of a C chord, Am chord, but also Fmajor 7th or the upper bit of Dm9 or Gm13. We put in harmonic shift to offset phrases from the main chord to allow the freedom to build your chords like this.
This of course doesn't mean it works equally well for all phrases, because the tonal material used varies between the phrases, but it gives users a lot of options.
The added dominants in Noir are not an engine thing, they are added recordings that are not there for the other type instruments, simply because we didn't need the more advanced forms of dominant chords (b10 13 or 9 b13 or those types) in the other styles.
Hope this explains it!

- one more thing
the chord input being major and minor triads doesn't mean the tonal material in the phrases is just major and minor, many flavours are there, Sotto for instance has a lot of added 7ths and ninths


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## brek (May 5, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> yep we're reading
> when we were doing Noir we wanted the option to put in extra colors in the dominant chords because the harmonic content of the style required that. Many phrases for Noir are therefor recorded not only in Major and Minor, but we recorded a separate dominant version too to allow for that. Noir is the only library we did that for.
> The harmonic shift happened when we were thinking during the composition phase how we could do different chord types, and how the upper structure of chords is often interchangeable - we could do different chords with the same recordings in certain cases, depending on the tonal material inside the phrase. If for example a phrase is just doing c - e - c - e, that could be part of a C chord, Am chord, but also Fmajor 7th or the upper bit of Dm9 or Gm13. We put in harmonic shift to offset phrases from the main chord to allow the freedom to build your chords like this.
> This of course doesn't mean it works equally well for all phrases, because the tonal material used varies between the phrases, but it gives users a lot of options.
> ...



Having only purchased one library, the biggest obstacle to me in using it is finding the phrase with just the right tensions to be usable in the context I'm looking for. 
I don't want to misrepresent in case I missed it, but it would be helpful to provide some sort of tagging or means of sorting phrases based on implied mode or scale rather than having to listen through each one. As I recall, even a way of separating out phrases without a 3rd would be great (while we're at it... would like to see more of those phrases in general!)


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## AndyP (May 7, 2020)

Just grabbed Espressivo. Download now and the fun begins.


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## with_joerg (May 7, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Just grabbed Espressivo. Download now and the fun begins.



How was your first hour with it?


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## AndyP (May 8, 2020)

with_joerg said:


> How was your first hour with it?


Awesome! By far the best library from Sonokinetic IMO. This is the stuff that's hard to get that realistically yourself.


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## nolotrippen (May 10, 2020)

"the updated Da Capo is a multisampled full orchestra that does everything" OK, I understand hype, but it's not a full orchestra. No trumpet, for example. Scratching my head there. No high or low woodwinds like pic or contra anything?


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## with_joerg (May 10, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> "the updated Da Capo is a multisampled full orchestra that does everything" OK, I understand hype, but it's not a full orchestra. No trumpet, for example. Scratching my head there. No high or low woodwinds like pic or contra anything?



There are four sections. Each section has low - medium and high that you can select, change volume, pan etc.. But you do not get dedicated stems. Eg you cannot get a trumpet stem. Considering the Sections it is imho somewhat similar to AI Jaeger. However, the Sonokinetic thing has no round robin and thus sounds a bit "architected". Of course compared to Jaeger there is more that it does not have.


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## nolotrippen (May 10, 2020)

with_joerg said:


> There are four sections. Each section has low - medium and high that you can select, change volume, pan etc.. But you do not get dedicated stems. Eg you cannot get a trumpet stem. Considering the Sections it is imho somewhat similar to AI Jaeger. However, the Sonokinetic thing has no round robin and thus sounds a bit "architected". Of course compared to Jaeger there is more that it does not have.




Per the manual:
8 Brass: 4-0-3-1 (no trumpets) so I'm not sure why you're responding to my post.

"full orchestra" is misleading anyway as most people would think there would be more than a few percussion instruments, a piano, etc. Again, it's marketing hype, but it's unnecessary marketing hype.


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## with_joerg (May 10, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> Per the manual:
> 8 Brass: 4-0-3-1 (no trumpets) so I'm not sure why you're responding to my post.



Never read the manual. Have been owning this thing for years. You want to say that you post here and do not appreciate to get answers?


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## dzilizzi (May 10, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> "the updated Da Capo is a multisampled full orchestra that does everything" OK, I understand hype, but it's not a full orchestra. No trumpet, for example. Scratching my head there. No high or low woodwinds like pic or contra anything?


The main reason to get it is to match with the phrase libraries. 

Just as a note, I'm actually finding good uses for the phrases in Espressivo in the Westworld competition. They are more sound effect phrase loops, but so much easier for me to use than actual loops.


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## robcs (May 10, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> Modal runs not yet, but it will be added in a future update


glad to hear that! I bought Modal Runs today and I was disappointed the midi drag wasn’t in there. I’ll probably pick up the bundle tomorrow - just waiting for a payment to come in from a client lol.


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## Lode_Runner (May 11, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> We picked instruments together with NI that would complement what's in their store already. Maybe at some point we'll get the woodwinds in there as well. There's going to be a free major update to the woodwinds once the strings are done too


Oh wow, I'm really happy to hear that the multi-sampled strings library is coming. I'm really hoping there'll be multi-sampled brass, percussion and solo instruments coming as well. I really love the sound of the hall Sonokinetic libraries are recorded in. Do you have a rough prediction of when the strings (and other sections if applicable) will be launching?


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## dzilizzi (May 11, 2020)

Lode_Runner said:


> Oh wow, I'm really happy to hear that the multi-sampled strings library is coming. I'm really hoping there'll be multi-sampled brass, percussion and solo instruments coming as well. I really love the sound of the hall Sonokinetic libraries are recorded in. Do you have a rough prediction of when the strings (and other sections if applicable) will be launching?


Yes, I am waiting for these also. I have the woodwinds and end up using them over BWW a lot because they are just easy to use and sound good. The only downside, if it is a downside, is that there are only the four main instruments.


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## Sonokinetic BV (May 11, 2020)

Lode_Runner said:


> Oh wow, I'm really happy to hear that the multi-sampled strings library is coming. I'm really hoping there'll be multi-sampled brass, percussion and solo instruments coming as well. I really love the sound of the hall Sonokinetic libraries are recorded in. Do you have a rough prediction of when the strings (and other sections if applicable) will be launching?


we're aiming for end of this year still but we're not rushing them - they're gonna be pretty special


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## Sonokinetic BV (May 11, 2020)

robcs said:


> glad to hear that! I bought Modal Runs today and I was disappointed the midi drag wasn’t in there. I’ll probably pick up the bundle tomorrow - just waiting for a payment to come in from a client lol.


we have a working concept for Modal Runs midi drag - it has to go through some iterations before it's ready for release...pretty tricky for this particular one because of the way the phrases are triggered, it's almost like writing a new engine just for the midi export


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## emilio_n (May 11, 2020)

Just got the bundle! I am lucky enough to have already some Sonokinetics libraries but any of the 4 in the bundle. Cool!
I got the Watchmaker too. Downloading all!
Thanks, Sonokinetic, thanks NI!


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## stargazer (May 12, 2020)

Just missed the sale, thought it would last all day today!
Anyway, those of you that made it in time, what are your best buys and recommendations?


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## robcs (May 12, 2020)

I couldn’t resist - the deal was too good to miss I now have the bundle to go with my copy of modal runs. I suspect not much work will get done today lol


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## Sonokinetic BV (May 12, 2020)

stargazer said:


> Just missed the sale, thought it would last all day today!
> Anyway, those of you that made it in time, what are your best buys and recommendations?



No need to panic, Ibrido Cinematica is still on introductory sale at https://www.sonokinetic.net/products/instruments/ibrido-cinematica/


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## robcs (May 12, 2020)

robcs said:


> I couldn’t resist - the deal was too good to miss I now have the bundle to go with my copy of modal runs. I suspect not much work will get done today lol



Well, I was right that I'd get no work done, but not for the reason I thought. I've spent the whole day watching Native Access crawling through downloads only to have the installs fail. This is ridiculous. I started Espressivo downloading for the fourth time three hours ago and it's showing 48%. And that's the smallest of the libraries. AND I still don't know for sure that when it finishes downloading it won't fail again.


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## emilio_n (May 12, 2020)

robcs said:


> Well, I was right that I'd get no work done, but not for the reason I thought. I've spent the whole day watching Native Access crawling through downloads only to have the installs fail. This is ridiculous. I started Espressivo downloading for the fourth time three hours ago and it's showing 48%. And that's the smallest of the libraries. AND I still don't know for sure that when it finishes downloading it won't fail again.


You should download the libraries with the Sonokinetic app. I did on this way and only around 3 hours to have everything ready. When you finish the download, you just need to use Native Access to locate the libraries. Even you don't need to add the serial numbers. 
I hope this work for you too.


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## jbuhler (May 12, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> You should download the libraries with the Sonokinetic app. I did on this way and only around 3 hours to have everything ready. When you finish the download, you just need to use Native Access to locate the libraries. Even you don't need to add the serial numbers.
> I hope this work for you too.


The Sonokinetic app was very slow for me yesterday (but faster than using Native Access). Ultimately I ended up downloading the files manually. I couldn't discern whether the issue was on Sonokinetic's end or mine. It seemed a bit of both.


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## dzilizzi (May 12, 2020)

I usually do the manual downloads. And I pick what I hope will be a non-busy server.


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## robcs (May 13, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> You should download the libraries with the Sonokinetic app. I did on this way and only around 3 hours to have everything ready. When you finish the download, you just need to use Native Access to locate the libraries. Even you don't need to add the serial numbers.
> I hope this work for you too.



Thank you, Emilio_n, JBuhler, and Dzilizzi - I installed the manager and did manual downloads. It feels like I've been doing nothing but download files all day. Just expanding the final set of file (Largo 24b) at last!


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## robcs (Jun 15, 2020)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> they are very much meant to be played.. the demo I did for Indie is using only Indie
> 
> 
> 
> no other instruments added. The way you can switch between phrases and chords on the fly makes them very playable and malleable - not as much as multisampled instruments of course, but you do get a very real sound as an upside, and it can provide great inspiration




i have to admit since buying the sonokinetic bundle in the NI sale, I’ve struggled to use it. It’s great to play with, and like one of the other posters said, you sit there and you think, “ooh, that’s so nice”, but actually putting the blocks together into a coherent piece just seems to evade me - in part because there’s just so much going on and so many options.

it would be great to see a breakdown video of how you put this together so we (OK,I!) could see your workflow and how you approached composing with the library


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## dzilizzi (Jun 15, 2020)

robcs said:


> i have to admit since buying the sonokinetic bundle in the NI sale, I’ve struggled to use it. It’s great to play with, and like one of the other posters said, you sit there and you think, “ooh, that’s so nice”, but actually putting the blocks together into a coherent piece just seems to evade me - in part because there’s just so much going on and so many options.
> 
> it would be great to see a breakdown video of how you put this together so we (OK,I!) could see your workflow and how you approached composing with the library


I haven't been able to do a full piece with them. I find they work best filling in the parts that are just too hard to program with midi. Or that sound better played. Think of them as working with loops where you can control the key/chord used and the timing without messing around with various audio time/key effects that never quite work. 

I also found that using just one or two phrases works better than trying to put all three phrases in a piece, even if they sound kind of cool playing them.


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## NekujaK (Jun 15, 2020)

There's must be a "trick" to creating full compositions with these libraries because the Sonokinetic site has numerous examples and walkthru videos of whole works built with these libraries. But what's missing is how they actually did it - what was the process, the workflow.

Like @dzilizzi said, the most direct way to apply them is for selected parts within a larger composition, but I'd really like to see some videos that show the start-to-finish process of creating a full composition with these libraries, because so far, that workflow is a complete mystery to me.


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## Peter Williams (Jun 15, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> There's must be a "trick" to creating full compositions with these libraries because the Sonokinetic site has numerous examples and walkthru videos of whole works built with these libraries. But what's missing is how they actually did it - what was the process, the workflow.
> 
> Like @dzilizzi said, the most direct way to apply them is for selected parts within a larger composition, but I'd really like to see some videos that show the start-to-finish process of creating a full composition with these libraries, because so far, that workflow is a complete mystery to me.


They have to inspire you to the point that you wish to hear the sounds as a part of a larger context that you provide. That can be a big challenge, or it could be easy. I find that the vague energy of certain Espressivo pads works nicely with solo instruments and combinations. I write a lot of dissonant or shifting modal stuff, so I might be a good candidate for that particular library. I've tried to figure out ways to use Sotto and Minimal and Largo, but I just don't hear it yet Besides, many of those elements are similar to things I would rather do myself, and a bit differently. But the libraries do give you performance snippets that you just can't realize with standard libraries, and they are consciously arranged so that you can loosely put them together with some mental glue. But sometimes there's too much of "that's not me" when I hear them, and that thought activates on several levels. I will probably finally pull the trigger on Sotto (which I love) and write something called "Variations on a Sonokinetik Phrase." That might be a good approach, and I'm suggesting it for you too.


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## AndyP (Jun 15, 2020)

I got the most use from Espressivo. With this it can be worked very loose and flaky.
With the other libraries it is more difficult for me, whereby I usually reduce, mute the 2-3 simultaneous lines (high, mid, low) to one. Then I rather have an ostinato that is easier to use in context.


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## Peter Williams (Jun 15, 2020)

AndyP said:


> I got the most use from Espressivo. With this it can be worked very loose and flaky.
> With the other libraries it is more difficult for me, whereby I usually reduce, mute the 2-3 simultaneous lines (high, mid, low) to one. Then I rather have an ostinato that is easier to use in context.


I sometimes stack two differently tuned instances of Espressivo and layer things to one track.


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## Pietro (Jun 15, 2020)

A couple of ways I use them:

1. When I have a blank project and need something to get me started. I load one of these, press the randomize button (it's the "O" letter in the product name on the Kontakt interface), usually mute everything but one section. Often it's just a sotto chord or a random ostinato. This helps me find the right colors for whatever I'm composing. Or if I'm stuck with an idea, but it doesn't work. Random phrase lets me put things in perspective.

2. I have some of the arrangement ready, but feel like it needs a filler or something to help multisamples. I try one of the better fitting products (Sotto for soft stuff, Capriccio for movement, Largo and Maximo for cresc-dim. chords) and randomize. Often it will let me spend time on the more important parts of the arrangement instead of the glue. It's like some people will record string as a full keyboard ensemble first to see the bigger picture and then return and add some counterpoint or movement to it using separate sections.

3. I need to check something quickly. Is ostinato a good idea? Maybe a cello arpeggio? I can try out things (randomly too), and see if it's worth spending time on.

4. I need to do some quick textures, tonal pads or sound design. Bam, one or two phrases, sometimes pitch -24. Time stretch 500%, add two wormhole reverbs 100% wet, aaaaand done.

I'm not a fan of creating full compositions with only these libraries. It's not really designed to work this way, so I can see how limiting it could be.

My first suggestion would be to focus on one section only. So don't use high, mid and low together like it's default. Try it out separately.

- Piotr


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## AndyP (Jun 15, 2020)

I should mention that Brass and Woodwinds are the two I use most. Strings not so much.


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## bozmillar (Jun 15, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> There's must be a "trick" to creating full compositions with these libraries because the Sonokinetic site has numerous examples and walkthru videos of whole works built with these libraries. But what's missing is how they actually did it - what was the process, the workflow.
> 
> Like @dzilizzi said, the most direct way to apply them is for selected parts within a larger composition, but I'd really like to see some videos that show the start-to-finish process of creating a full composition with these libraries, because so far, that workflow is a complete mystery to me.



I think the "trick" is that it's great for writing music for something where the music is not intended to be remembered, but needs to be something more exciting than block chords. There's been plenty of times where I've needed to create a song to fill in the background of a video but needed to do it fast.

You supply the chords, the tempo and choose the feel. Then you just sort of let it do its thing and decide before you even start that you are going to be ok with the results. That way, you can pound a significantly more interesting song in 20 minutes than you could otherwise.

To me, this is the magic of phrase libraries. I'm not composing when I'm using them, I'm selecting music that fits the needs of the project. Phrase libraries make it easy to select the music and customize it to the project. It's sort of the mid point between composing a song and downloading stock music.


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## Peter Williams (Jun 15, 2020)

Pietro said:


> A couple of ways I use them:
> 
> 1. When I have a blank project and need something to get me started. I load one of these, press the randomize button (it's the "O" letter in the product name on the Kontakt interface), usually mute everything but one section. Often it's just a sotto chord or a random ostinato. This helps me find the right colors for whatever I'm composing. Or if I'm stuck with an idea, but it doesn't work. Random phrase lets me put things in perspective.
> 
> ...


And just like that, we are starting to realize how so many techniques can be used with these amazing products. I really liked your point 4.


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## AndyP (Jun 15, 2020)

Peter Williams said:


> And just like that, we are starting to realize how so many techniques can be used with these amazing products. I really liked your point 4.


I honestly didn't think about using the libraries that way. An interesting approach. So far I have always used N because it sounds like this out of the box ...


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## Peter Williams (Jun 15, 2020)

AndyP said:


> I honestly didn't think about using the libraries that way. An interesting approach. So far I have always used N because it sounds like this out of the box ...


So N ticing and so N joyable. Compose with N for N viable productions! And Never N tiquated.


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## BezO (Jun 15, 2020)

My background and still what I do most is in the electronic arena. I had been experimenting with "cinematic" textures for a while, getting closer to orchestral proper. So I'm very new to orchestral music and use the Sonokinetic libs more as learning tools and idea starters. These libs tend to inspire the beds & rhythmic parts.


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## Peter Williams (Jun 15, 2020)

AndyP said:


> I should mention that Brass and Woodwinds are the two I use most. Strings not so much.


Yes. They really do come up with woodwind and brass colors that are beautiful and also catchy.


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## markleake (Jun 15, 2020)

There's a few things I use them for:

The easiest thing is to use woodwind phrases to add some colour. You don't need them for a full track, just in certain parts. They work very well for this.

Related to this, but still easy enough, is to use the strings or brass as added support to fill out a section, i.e. something you add later to give more texture to a part.

Then, if you want to spend more time with them, you can use them as beds you lay down during the writing process. There's two methods I find work for me this way:
1. I selectively choose something that gives rhythm or some kind of dynamic flow (depending on the SK library you are using), make sure it isn't too intrusive (mute some of the parts if needed), get the chords in, then write over that.
2. If it's a more rhythm focused SK library, just go the whole hog, randomise the sound to something you like, put down the chords, then use that as the whole structure. The strings work well for this. Like Grosso, for example, you can have it play away with the strings and woods, and add your own brass layers over the top for a good adventure feel.

The trick is to know when to thin the phrases out when using selectively, and to remember the more actively you use them, the more you need to take a back seat and let the phrases take you where you are going.


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## NekujaK (Jun 15, 2020)

I think I may have been operating under the grave misconception that these libraries are intended for full compositional duties. But Sonokinetic never actually say this on their website, although in my defense, their demos and some of their walkthru videos strongly suggest entire pieces can be composed with their libraries.

In any event, my use of these libraries is similar to what others have mentioned, especially with respect to filler woodwind parts


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## AndyP (Dec 5, 2020)

I am currently working on a track with Sonokinetic Espressivo and VSL BBO. They fit together perfectly in terms of sound.


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