# Any tricks for transcribing inner voices?



## Zardoz (Feb 19, 2015)

I've been trying to take Mike Verta's and others advice and transcribe music on a regular basis. I'm currently working on "The Goondocks" from The Goonies by Dave Grusin. It is strings and harp only with melody in the VnIs the entire time (I'm ignoring the synth and guitar in the background for now). One would think this would be relatively straightforward to transcribe. I am making progress but it's really slow going because the inner voices are so darn muddy. I have to guess and infer from voice leading what the cellos, violas and vln2 are doing. I've tried playing with eq but that doesn't really help too much. The whole track is bathed in so much reverb sometimes it's even difficult to figure out the bass note. 

Any tips or tricks you guys use to figure out those tricky inner voices?


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## muk (Feb 19, 2015)

Harmony. If you can't make out which exact note the inner voices are playing, determine the harmony first. That way you can limit the possibilities. If you still can't make out the exact voicing, set it yourself, following the rules of voice leading and what you think would be the best option to fill out the harmony at that point.

There's also software around that lets you loop and slow down individual passages. That can help as well.


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## Rob (Feb 19, 2015)

I second the idea of using a software, like "Transcribe!" for example.

A few thoughts that come to mind:

1) provided that you have a good understanding of harmony, listen to the global sound and transcribe the harmonies, pay attention to inversions, appoggiaturas, displaced bass, chord extensions
2) try to follow the lines, choose one of the instruments and follow it through the piece, listen to where it's going
3) don't let the track play past the point you are at, immediately stop after that point and let the last sound you heard resonate "in the air". The persistence of sound in the ear allows us to listen and concentrate better than when actually listening
4) try to figure out where exactly the notes are placed in the frequency range, for example where the initial c and e are on the piano keyboard...
5) when you have transcribed what you were able to hear, try to fill the gaps infering the missing notes by use of your harmony knowledge
6) sometimes you can make an assumption that a certain note could be present in a chord, sing it in your mind and while the piece is playing try to see if you can recognize it in the sound...


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## gsilbers (Feb 19, 2015)

the david burk relative ear training course does have a way to develop the ear for those inner pitches.


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## AlexandreSafi (Feb 19, 2015)

If this is the piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRW7LPuuOCo

I can understand the difficulty here, it is not indeed the clearest recording i've heard, yet i need to say it's still fine... 

--Here on this specific piece, like any specific one, play it on a good flexible player if you can (i.e. Media Player Classic). One trick i learned is also to lower sufficiently the volume of the track so you benefit from a clearer perspective on the recording, as Rob greatly suggested, stay focused on the seconds of the passage you are transcribing, when you go past it rewind it a few secs quickly with your finger on the comp.keyboard(the left arrow)...

--Just practice more, give it time, this process is what i like to call "ear infiltration". The more you do it, the better you infiltrate any recordings of all sorts really, however,..

--Learn to really recognize orchestral timbres & combinations like the back of your hand (playing your Strings Vst's/Samples can help here...), like what does a viola really sound like in its mid-register compared to a violin, or how does it sound in its lowest register compared to the cellos, (..and trust me, you can hear all of the instruments in this "Goondocks" piece..) you'll also develop the habit of asking yourself pertinent questions on the way...

--In the end, You'll be surprised just by aurally repeating the track "enough times" (which needs to be usually.. -a lot-.!) how much of a greater perspective you gain on the details of it, you dig in deeper: one note, one timbre at a time, you anticipate it all better, like when practicing purely "visually" a piano piece with the sheets in front of your eyes., so like anything else, take your time (same goes for me! :D )...

Good luck!
We all understand it's not an easy process, 
but you're tough & brave, bravo for doing it! o-[][]-o


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## trumpoz (Feb 19, 2015)

> 2) try to follow the lines, choose one of the instruments and follow it through the piece, listen to where it's going



I'm doing a massive amount of transcribing for a project I'm doing at the moment. The above suggestion from Rob is has been the most important thing for me (it helps that I developed/acquired perfect pitch when I was at university).

A good harmonic knowledge is essential and will speed up the process. It also means that you can make an educated guess to what the inner voices may be if you can't hear them. 

The other one is get used to the colours of different chord types and voicings - playing piano is useful here.


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## Zardoz (Feb 19, 2015)

Yes, Alexandre that is the correct track, although interestingly it seems to be a slightly different take than the one on the CD I have and is actually a little bit clearer (if you can imagine). Thanks for finding that!

Thanks to all above for the tips - some of them I'm already doing, others I'll take note of. It sounds like I'm mostly doing it right - it's just hard! I'm glad to be doing it though. I learn something new with every piece I transcribe and solving the puzzle that each one presents is incredibly satisfying. :D


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## Jimbo 88 (Feb 19, 2015)

When I'm transcribing something I have trouble hearing...I load it into my DAW, get the beats/tempo to match as close as possible...then I figure the harmony as someone suggested...park my daw on the beat/chord that is giving me trouble and guess at what Im hearing, play it on a piano vst then play back the audio for a second..eventual I will hunt and peck enough to find the matching tones.

Sometimes inner voices get muddled due to intonation and tuning..so sometimes it becomes a crap-shoot

Good Luck... it is time well spent


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## SillyMidOn (Feb 20, 2015)

Hi

Three suggestions:

1) If you can't hear the inner voices yet, transcribe a choral piece for which you have access to the score, so you can see where you are going wrong. It can even be simple Christmas carols - a really good place to start. If you start with the top line and the bass, and have that sorted the other two voices can't be a huge number of possibilities if you have worked out the harmony. The advantage of doing choral 4 part pieces is there are no other instruments clouding up the sound, so you should be able to hear everything clearer. Simpler solo piano pieces also are useful here, as the scores are available, though the inner parts can be harder to hear, as it's all coming from one instrument.

2) Sing in a choir - I'm not kidding, three years of signing tenor parts in my university's choir really helped me pitch those in inner voices and understand them when I transcribe music.

3) Test yourself/train your ear on really tricky stuff, i.e. Jazz!


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## JohnG (Feb 20, 2015)

While I agree it's a good practise to transcribe, you also could "cheat" a bit and look at what the masters did.

Tchaikovsky, John Williams, etc.

I've learned quite a bit every time I transcribe four bars or so (not even by ear) of John Williams' popular themes -- doublings, ranges, inner voices, etc.


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## AlexandreSafi (Feb 20, 2015)

JohnG @ Fri Feb 20 said:


> While I agree it's a good practise to transcribe, you also could "cheat" a bit and look at what the masters did.
> 
> Tchaikovsky, John Williams, etc.
> 
> I've learned quite a bit every time I transcribe four bars or so (not even by ear) of John Williams' popular themes -- doublings, ranges, inner voices, etc.



I didn't really want to go the John Williams fanboy route, i knew i'd go nuts, but this is ultimately perfect advice, because i think he's in so many cases the hardest, yet fastest way to really learn orchestral music!! John Williams, in my opinion, is an incredible harmonist and has the greatest quality of lyricism work, you can literally feel him "sing" everything he writes, quiet or loud... It's amazing to witness how much you can hear comes from improvisational jazz, the romantics & choral works...

For this thread, I'd advice Angela's Ashes (especially Back To America & the Theme) /
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxYCftPa9Hc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv2QSWS8-S0

War Horse (Homecoming, just perfect close-voicing, chordal writing) / 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdzaRwcCc38

S.P.Ryan (The Last Battle & Hymn to The Fallen, great devastating vocal, brass & woodwinds work!!...) / 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX71tKWyK8g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omd9_FJnerY

Hp.1 (Leaving Hogwarts)/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIy2RkIiD5o

HP.3 (Patronus Light)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRiaIIivaKs

SW.2 (Across the Stars) /
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nk_WHHTQtY

7 Years in Tibet (Theme & Regaining A Son, ugh geez...) / 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nk_WHHTQtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8VjxQ0e8yA

Always (Among The Clouds + Pete & Dorinda) / 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bmdIjSh4cA

Terminal (Fountain's Scene--Jazz Autographs--Gupta's Deliverance) / 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4HaK5L78XU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRXqU2skiUw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsfpQ8qunlI

Book Thief (New Parents & A New Home + Rescuing The Book + End Track)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpTIgNWdx_A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=592uJ1dzHhs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDSbz_JiDLE ((Transposed motif from New Parents...))

Stepmom (Always & Always + Days Between + Christmas Quilt...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMwk8875IJk

Sabrina (Theme & Linus's New Life + In The Moonlinght + Date...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqxrMa7eUAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCPXjPwrPaA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrgvJT0jjPQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBjDJ3qJJqw

Amistad (Crossing The Atlantic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqmjS9kf7U

E.T. (The Beginning Of A Friendship--One of the greatest film cues ever!!]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNWhE9OY6dw

The Patriot (Theme)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REUusj4nxh4

Catch Me If You Can (Learning The Ropes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8hLI12qi1o

Song For World Peace [Masterpiece!...]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhtQRu40V7s

Try also to transcribe Monica's Theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l41AaSZQB8w
from A.I.-- one of the most profound & challenging string pieces to get into and figure out, "pp's everywhere", i always think the closest thing had John Williams scored the last 20 minutes of Titanic...

Little OFF-Bonus you can't miss!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FzVWlOKeLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpi6JuLV7UE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znBeJlY2PKY

Just sharin'! :D


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## Zardoz (Feb 20, 2015)

I will definitely get to the Williams stuff soon but the degree of difficulty is much higher. I picked the Goonies theme because it is a good example of straightforward string writing with fairly simple melodic/harmonic components and limited orchestration. It's something I thought I could transcribe and mockup quickly to give me the confidence to move on to tougher material.

Thanks you guys for all the great suggestions. Good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this stuff.


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## JohnG (Feb 20, 2015)

Zardoz @ 20th February 2015 said:


> Good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this stuff.



Either one struggles, or one doesn't improve.


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## peterspiano (Feb 25, 2015)

study harmony and counterpoint..half of transcribing is doing educated guessing...then (if it's even possible - because often with trancribing..one CAN'T hear everything..one has to guess) confirm what you can..
otherwise..don't know if it was mentioned above..use VLC or any other player (i'm sure there are much better ones..actually there is a program called 'trancribe' i think..which actually shows you midi like notes of an audio file) to lower the velocity of the recording...this is very helpful...but really...a good understanding of harmony makes trancribing much much easieer...you then understand what's happening much quicker...and don't have to re-listen and re-listen and re--blah blah... you can make educated guesses..


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## Zardoz (Feb 25, 2015)

peterspiano @ Wed Feb 25 said:


> study harmony and counterpoint..half of transcribing is doing educated guessing...then (if it's even possible - because often with trancribing..one CAN'T hear everything..one has to guess) confirm what you can..
> otherwise..don't know if it was mentioned above..use VLC or any other player (i'm sure there are much better ones..actually there is a program called 'trancribe' i think..which actually shows you midi like notes of an audio file) to lower the velocity of the recording...this is very helpful...but really...a good understanding of harmony makes trancribing much much easieer...you then understand what's happening much quicker...and don't have to re-listen and re-listen and re--blah blah... you can make educated guesses..



Thanks Peter. I have a 4-year degree in music theory, although after being largely unused for 15 years it has atrophied a bit. I am definitely inferring some of the parts based on voice leading practices and harmonic structure.


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