# Wow: Article by Hans Zimmer's tech guy in latest SoundonSound...



## JohnnyMarks (Jun 27, 2007)

The saga of developing a 64-bit sampler, on the fly in a matter of weeks, for the use of Hans' new library on POCIII. The developer (and writer of the article) Mark Wherry seems an astonishingly capable guy.

Lots of background on the new library (being edited by Claudius Bruese) and some on working methods of Hans' team. Article requires payment if you're not a subscriber, but I can't imagine someone who hangs here regretting the purchase.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul07/articles/pirates.htm


----------



## MacQ (Jun 27, 2007)

Great article, thanks for the heads-up. 

I wonder how "realistic" the mock-ups actually do sound. I've heard the old ones, and they're reasonable. It's interesting to see the different approaches ... brute-force sampling versus clever programming. More mic positions versus fewer, etc.

Loved the bit about "Sam". Haha ... "well, since I had nothing to do over Christmas".

~Stu


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Jun 27, 2007)

MacQ @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> It's interesting to see the different approaches ... brute-force sampling versus clever programming. More mic positions versus fewer, etc.


Not to mention the legato technique.



MacQ @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> Loved the bit about "Sam". Haha ... "well, since I had nothing to do over Christmas".~Stu


 Yeah, a great job describing the scale of the challenges - but so low key describing what sounds like very impressive work, like "so I thought I'd have a whack coding up a new DAW that morning before breakfast ..."  Must be a Brit...

Yes, looks like it; I see he's a regular SOS contributor.


----------



## loydb (Jun 27, 2007)

Fantastic article. As a coder, I'm awed.


----------



## sevaels (Jun 27, 2007)

The shot of his machine room is insane :shock:


----------



## Sovereign (Jun 28, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> Not to mention the legato technique.


Unless I missed it I can't find in the article that he actually recorded 'real' legato.


----------



## Ed (Jun 28, 2007)

Since Im not a subcriber is this library still a private Zimmer library or is this the thing he was developing with Wizoo or something>?


----------



## Sovereign (Jun 28, 2007)

Ed @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Since Im not a subcriber is this library still a private Zimmer library or is this the thing he was developing with Wizoo or something>?


According to the article Wizoo was/is certainly involved. But the lib is obviously private. Has there been talk to make a commercial release then?


----------



## Ed (Jun 28, 2007)

Sovereign @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Ed @ Thu Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Since Im not a subcriber is this library still a private Zimmer library or is this the thing he was developing with Wizoo or something>?
> ...



When I heard about this a while ago, I got the impression it might well be. But its very possible I misunderstood. Ah well.


----------



## Niah (Jun 28, 2007)

There is also the possibility that the library isn't at all that realistic sounding since all the mock-ups are to be recorded by the real thing later. 

But it is only a possibility. :|


----------



## José Herring (Jun 28, 2007)

I've been in communication with one particular guy who has a studio at Remote Control. The goal for the mockups is first musicality then realism. I find that pretty consistent with the few mock ups that I've heard over the years from media ventures/remote control. But at the same time they are really working on the realism part of it too. I think Zimmer's new library will really be the ultimate in both expressiveness and realism.


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Jun 28, 2007)

Sovereign @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> JohnnyMarks @ Wed Jun 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Not to mention the legato technique.
> ...


 I infer from the work making Hans happy playing the strings that no "interval" legato approach was taken. 

And the samples are ambient - more a "SISS' approach. Mmm...I guess SISS doesn't have 16 channel samples carrying all the mic positions of a scoring session at AIR Lyndhurst though... :!:


----------



## Marsdy (Jun 28, 2007)

He's collaborating with Digidesign on a library for their new sampler.

These new orchestral samples have been mentioned with regards to this.


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Jun 28, 2007)

Sovereign @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Ed @ Thu Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Since Im not a subcriber is this library still a private Zimmer library or is this the thing he was developing with Wizoo or something>?
> ...


 Digizine before last, in an interview with Zimmer, he talks of plans to adapt his new library for Structure, a project he viewed as a legacy for a "new generation of composers" or something to that effect.

Structure does handle 8-channel samples.

Also, and while I can't quite make sense of some of the numbers mentioned in the article, I read (between the lines) that sections were divided in three and recorded for divisi. [EDIT: Mmm...maybe not.]

References to the polyphony demands of crossfading and ambient releases again reminds of a more SISS-like (and EWQL) than VSL approach.


----------



## synthetic (Jun 28, 2007)

Great article. A few thoughts: 

1. Both GS3 and GVI support multiple processor cores. However, the GS3 kernel has to be live on a single core -- there's no way to split it up without causing problems. Everything has to stay in sync.

2. GVI works great on multiple cores, and each instance can live on its own processor core. This is determined by the host, and the user usually has no control over it. For example, in Plogue Bidule it's determined by the order you instantiate the plug-ins. I don't know of a host that allows you to control what goes where. The Mac version of GVI will also support multi-core processors in this way. 

3. GS4 is coming. It will support 64-bit operating systems and more. 

4. The best mockups I've heard from composers are not as good as the ones I've heard on this board. Because it's not as high a priority -- the mockup is not the final product -- and they don't have time to tweak it as long as we do. 

5. Hans can loan me his Black Amex anytime.


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Jun 28, 2007)

synthetic @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> This is determined by the host, and the user usually has no control over it. For example, in Plogue Bidule it's determined by the order you instantiate the plug-ins. I don't know of a host that allows you to control what goes where.


In the latest build order doesn't matter; everything's one core unless an item is toggled "MP assign" in which case that item (and everything upstream to it) will go on a second core/processor. For now two core/processors only supported, pending testing of a more elaborate capability.


----------



## James W.G. Smith (Jun 28, 2007)

Thanks for linking to this.

Lots of good information in there, although I thought it was funny that they ended up doing the same exact thing I've been using on certain EWQLSO samples for well over a year now (keyswitches triggering different start points and all).

I still really, really believe that you have to record instruments at a natural distance because the technology just isn't there to compensate. Sure, you can kind of "fake" distance using convolution reverb and eq techniqes but you will still miss the natural reverberations and air that comes from recording the instruments in their proper spots on the stage, not to mention it can add really strange frequencies depending on what verb your using (IR1 is just nasty to my ears).

Interval sampling is overrated I think. Sure, it may give your demos a bit more of a push towards sounding realistic but you are spending a ton on sample libraries and equipment that will STILL never sound nearly as good as the real thing. I am hoping that someone will take a cue from Wallander or Eric from Synful and do away with the interval sampling by connecting legato lines via synthesis while still using samples (sorry but I don't think that physical modeling is quite at the point of replacing well recorded, natural samples) and adds things like the random noise generator in WIVI.

But there is one thing that developers can take from this and I hope learn from other developer's mistakes:

DON'T CRUSH YOUR SAMPLES WITH NOISE REDUCTION!!!

This is the biggest problem I have with most of my libraries. They sound odd because it was "removed" so that it didn't stack when you had a ton of notes playing back, but along with it went the air and the presence of the intruments themselves because it wasn't treated carefully enough. Man what I would pay for the UNEDITED samples from EWQLSO.


----------



## Daryl (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't think that you have to record your orchestral libraries in a large space, and I do think that convolution reverbs (plus other techniques) can make up for what is "missing". Sure, when you listen to individual notes recorded in a large space they sound great, but when you try to play a legato line, it becomes much less successful. I think that for people who want a particular sound quickly, the "record in position" is probably just the ticket, but for me it is so limiting, that it would become unusable very quickly.

D


----------



## Daryl (Jun 29, 2007)

As far as orchestras go, there is no proper position, I'm afraid. There are improper ones though. :shock: 

D


----------



## Doug Rogers (Jul 2, 2007)

James W.G. Smith @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Thanks for linking to this.
> 
> Lots of good information in there, although I thought it was funny that they ended up doing the same exact thing I've been using on certain EWQLSO samples for well over a year now (keyswitches triggering different start points and all).
> 
> ...



James,

While I generally agree with your assessment here, I don't understand the last part. We only noise reduce our samples when it's absolutely necessary. There is no noise reduction on the loudest dynamics in EWQLSO, only the pianissimo samples have some noise reduction.

Also, Digi has no plans to release Hans's orchestral library; there was some talk about it a while ago which resulted in the Digizine article, but since then Digi chose EWQLSO for Structure.

I'm sure Hans's library will be great, but it will take a ton of computers to run it, probably around $100K worth, but I admire him for having the vision and executing it, that takes guts (and lots of money). I don't envy the editing and programming involved though! 

Cheers,

- Doug


----------



## choc0thrax (Jul 2, 2007)

And who knows if his lib will even sound good...


----------



## James W.G. Smith (Jul 2, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> James,
> 
> While I generally agree with your assessment here, I don't understand the last part. We only noise reduce our samples when it's absolutely necessary. There is no noise reduction on the loudest dynamics in EWQLSO, only the pianissimo samples have some noise reduction.
> 
> ...



But he can afford it 

I'm surprised to hear that there isn't any noise reduction on the louder dynamics in EWQLSO though. Some of the instruments (strings mainly) sound a bit stale and have almost no air to my ears, and I thought this was the cause. Oh well, I faked it well enough at this point I'm not really worried anymore.

I'm not so sure that it would take all that much to run his library though, ESPECIALLY if it was marketed for your adverage users (mainly just mix down the 16 channels into 1 for it). Take DDBE for instance, 8 dynamics (on most articulations). I never heard of anyone having a problem with that library.

But that brings up a great point. The one thing that I wish a developer would do is what Zimmer's guys just did: Record 8 dynamics for the strings. I know SISS has 4 for certain articulations but having the full 8 really covers the board. Personally, I would rather have streched samples (like one same per 3 notes) and 8 dynamics than a new sample for every note and 2/3/4 dynamics like I see in most libraries. This would make a WORLD of difference in terms of staccato. Of course, it will just as bad as what we currently have if you let your musicians get too perfect, which is what every library of sampled strings is suffering from at the moment.

In terms of how Zimmer's new library sounds, who knows? I figure it's probably pretty nice, considering how good his old one is (this strings needed a bit of work but the brass is some of the best I've heard, and for a 13 year old library that is saying something). If Zimmer was a smart man, he would commercially release his old library since he isn't going to be using it anymore. I'll bet it would sell like hotcakes.


----------



## Doug Rogers (Jul 5, 2007)

tobyond @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> It's an interesting article, I just don't see the point in going to such effort when you're going to have an orchestra record your tracks. I'd actually be more impressed if he was laying it out on a laptop using gm sounds or some light library like Silver. Seems he likes to wank big and waste a bunch of money and resources whilst he's at it.



I heard Hans used it on "Pirates Of The Carribean", so I think the days of using his library for strictly mock-up purposes may be a thing of the past.

- Doug


----------



## José Herring (Jul 5, 2007)

Also you have to understand that Hans' entire creative output and vision centers around what samples can do. He's not the type of composer that will stare at a blank page and imagine the final outcome. In my opinion if he can't do it in his studio then he won't do it. So the more capable his samples and studio are the more creative he'll be. 

Coming from the other side of things it's clear to me now that the more you can "demo" the more agreement you'll get from filmmakers and the better your chances of actually doing something inspiring are. I'd love to go back to the John Williams days of "yoiu'll hear it for the first time on the stage" thinking. But realistically John Williams is about the only guy who can do that these days. Maybe James Horner, but he runs into all sorts of problems thinking that way. Problems that I'd really not care to deal with.

I'd heard a story once in which the producers of "The Rock" where so happy with the mockups that they didn't even bother to show up to the scoring sessions with live orchestra. It took me a few years still to come around to the idea that the real scoring these days is done in the studio, but when I heard that story I was like "Yeah"!. And, I knew someday I'd have to be able to mockup well enough in my own studio so that during live sessions you can concentrate on the music making and not have to deal with filmmakes having you do tons of costly rewrites.

At about the same time I attended a Bruce Broughton session. Bruce was dead set apposed to anything having to do with samples at the time. He did have to end up doing 5 or 6 rewrites overnight in time for the next session. I think that was the last major film that Bruce did. 

The better the mock up the better your chances of survival. That's the way I see it. If I had $100,000 to throw at this and it would give me even one more once of better sounding mockups, I'd do it. Hans' obviously has the money.

Jose


----------



## janila (Jul 5, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> He's not the type of composer that will stare at a blank page and imagine the final outcome. In my opinion if he can't do it in his studio then he won't do it. So the more capable his samples and studio are the more creative he'll be.


Exactly. That's pretty much how it goes for me and many others on these forums too. I know my orchestration and I want to do my mockups so that they could be played with a real orchestra even the mockup was the final product. Still being able to hear instead of imaginating helps to go a lot further out of the box.




> If I had $100,000 to throw at this and it would give me even one more once of better sounding mockups, I'd do it. Hans' obviously has the money.


If I was making millions in making music for movies I'd propably spend a lot more than that.


----------



## James W.G. Smith (Jul 5, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> James W.G. Smith @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > If Zimmer was a smart man, he would commercially release his old library since he isn't going to be using it anymore. I'll bet it would sell like hotcakes.
> ...



Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Oh well, not like he needs the money anyway. Hope all your fingers are still intact Doug


----------



## ChrisAxia (Jul 8, 2007)

Hey guys,

Long time no chat! Yes, a very interesting article about Zimmer's new library. I had the privilege of attending one of the recent Harry Potter recording sessions at Abbey Road, and an old school friend, Richard Watkins, one of the horn players, was telling me that he played for Zimmer's new library and that it was very hard work!! Looks like he had Richard playing loads of different articulations etc.

I also had the even greater privelege of having the LSO record some of my music at AIR studios last month! It is an interesting project for Lexus which involves having 12 Lexus LS460s being the orchestra, to show off the Mark Levinson sound system. The 'presentations' will accompany classical concerts around the UK, and people will be allowed to wander around the cars, hearing different parts of the orchestra from each car (doors/windows all open). In case you're wondering, I used Logic on a Mac Pro with a MOTU 24io feeding stereo inputs to the 12 cars.

We did 5.1 mixes and the separate tracks were routed to different cars also, along with the ambient mics in the recording. Spot mics were used for 'definition' of the various sections, and overall, I was very pleased with the results. The presentations will include large 5 metre video displays, and sync'd lighting etc, the first shows accompanying the RPO in August, here in the UK. 

Unfortunately, I didn't have the budget to mix the tracks in stereo, and the 5.1 mixes don't 'fold down' to stereo well. I tried mixing them myself but am not happy with the results yet. I will try again soon and let you guys hear them when I have decent mixes! 

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## rgames (Jul 8, 2007)

Yes - interesting article.

Does anybody know how much Zimmer (or any of the other "majors") relies on samples for the final mix? I don't understand why he would go to the trouble of developing such a sophisticated sampling rig when he's going to record with an orchestra, anyway.

rgames


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Jul 9, 2007)

As to why Hans would create such a sample library, one answer that springs to mind (not at all facetiously) is: because he's _Hans Zimmer_!

Hans is "the" Hollywood composer of recent times, and if there is any common demoninator amongst the various endeavors that comprise the business of making "major motion pictures" in Los Angeles it is: *lavish spending*. No one at Hans' end of the business is rewarded for frugality - quite the opposite in fact, which is my point.

I grew up in L.A. amongst family and friends in the business, spent time working on the Paramount and Fox lots, and witnessed this firsthand.

Of course, just below that top "tier of abundance" lies the real world where it's all arms and elbows and they want you to work for free!

P.S. Not implying Hans Zimmer was motivated to spend conspicuously, but rather that if someone spends a few years at his end of the business, they tend to view this kind of spending a bit differently from the rest of us...


----------



## Lunatique (Aug 1, 2007)

I read the article this morning, and I have to wonder if spending all that money really gets you that much closer. It sounds like diminishing returns for me, where the amount of improvement over commercially available libraries (which are already behemoths in both size and cost for mere mortals--like VSL) probably don't correlate to the amount of extra money spent. 

My question is, we hear awesome mockups here often, and I really have to wonder with such high quality mockups, can the audience, the director and producer REALLY tell the difference? Commercial libraries are also now a lot more playable with articulation detection and scripts--I'd love to hear from the horse's mouth (Hans) just what his opinion of current commercial libraries is. Will he rip them all a new one and declare they are unusable for his needs? Does his private rig really perform THAT much better than a full-blown commercial library running on multiple loaded systems?


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2007)

I've heard mockups here and there that sound more real than Zimmer's real orchestra stuff.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Aug 1, 2007)

hehe funny, I was thinking the same today. I was listening to parts of Pirates 2 and thought to myself how crap it sounded. It dident even have a nice production quality.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 4, 2007)

Hey guys,

I believe that it really depends on the style of music, as to whether samples are good enough. Thomas J showed how convincingly it can be done with the bombastic Williams style stuff, but I think even Thomas would struggle to do a convincing Schindler's List style mock up where strings are constantly 'expressing' in different ways.

This all became very apparent to me when I recorded with the LSO recently, and when I now listen to what I considered a good mock up (with the help of top orchestrator Alastair King), it sounds so fake and cheap in comparison to the real thing! I can't bear to listen to the mock up now!! I did however replace the isolated piano & marimba with samples because I wasn't happy with the performances, but using samples for percussive sounds like these is not a problem, and I know that many top composers regularly replace the real piano in their scores.

If I had to do it again, I'd probably not record live percussion either, due to the bleed into all the other mics which severely limits your flexibility later on, and also that percussion libraries sound so good these days!

But those damn LSO violins sound sooooo good...

Chris


----------



## Lunatique (Aug 4, 2007)

ChrisAxia @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> I can't bear to listen to the mock up now!!



Is it possible for you to post both the MIDI mockup version and the live recorded version?


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 4, 2007)

Good morning Lunatique!

Unfortunately, I'm in Japan with my family at the moment (Japanese wife!) and can't do this for you, although even if I was able, I could get in trouble with the client, Lexus, as the premiere of the 2 pieces of music takes place this month in the UK http://www.lexus.co.uk/about_lexus/news_and_events/lso.asp (http://www.lexus.co.uk/about_lexus/news ... ts/lso.asp)

I should be able to do this on my return to the UK, but not until early September I'm afraid. Sorry!

Chris


----------



## ComposerDude (Aug 4, 2007)

ChrisAxia - Congratulations on the LSO gig!

-Peter


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 4, 2007)

Thank you Peter! Yes, it was a real privilege to have the LSO perform some of my stuff!! I've just discovered that Lexus have MP3s on their website of my first dodgy mixes, so I'd rather you hear my recent mixes which sound much better.

You can download "Summon the Hero" here:

http://www.mailbigfile.com/7f0e9d3a8197 ... tFiles.php

This piece was designed to combine the styles of a few well known film comnposers (can you guess which?), with a little Chris Nicolaides somewhere in there! 

and "Karma Nirvana" here:

http://www.mailbigfile.com/c091e6c34148 ... tFiles.php

was an attempt to combine the styles of 2 other well known film composers!! This one was a co-write with pop singer Chesney Hawkes (those in the UK and maybe Germany may recognise the name!) 

I don't have the mock-ups available unfortunately, but I'm sure you'll agree that it would be very difficult to achieve the expression of the strings of the LSO.

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 4, 2007)

I think we all know even Thomas can't get near the quality of the LSO with samples. You never hear any exposed string heavy stuff from him probably since strings are the weakest group in samples. Chris you've officially moved onto my forum composers good composers list. That's great music and refreshing to hear real orchestra, especially the LSO. Since it's car music I had a feeling some David Arnold would show up.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Well, thank you very much for the kind words Choco! I learned so much on this project. Surprisingly, the composition was the easy part, and happened very quickly, partly because the brief was very clear (how rare is that?!). Even more surprisingly, Lexus approved every stage of the composition without asking for any changes. 

The hard work was checking and double checking the scores before recording, and then editing across over 40 audio tracks (I left AIR studios with 55Gb of data!). I spent almost 2 weeks editing!

Nope, no David Arnold, although a few friends who came to the session said they saw him in the cafeteria. I was too busy in the control room so didn't get the chance to meet him. Doh!

Chris


----------



## Sovereign (Aug 5, 2007)

ChrisAxia @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> I don't have the mock-ups available unfortunately, but I'm sure you'll agree that it would be very difficult to achieve the expression of the strings of the LSO.


Which lib do you mainly use for your mock-ups?


----------



## lux (Aug 5, 2007)

Congratulation Chris, this is pretty nice music.

Luca


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Hey guys & girls,

Sovereign, I use QLSO Gold Pro for orch stuff. Lux, thank you!

I forgot I had the mock ups in my Googlemail!

Here's a link to Summon the Hero, this version was done by Alastair King with his additional orchestration. I use QLSO Gold Pro, but Alastair used S.I for some strings I believe and various other libs for brass etc. Bear in mind that the mock ups were done very quickly and little time was spent tweaking as we knew the LSO was gonna play them! You will hear some temporary drum loops in this version which I chose to drop as you can hear in the final LSO mix.

http://www.mailbigfile.com/e82a15158d10 ... tFiles.php

Karma Nirvana here is my original mock up without Alastair's additional orchestration and is all QLSO Gold Pro, apart from the Synthogy Ivory Steinway which ended up on the final mixes anyway!

http://www.mailbigfile.com/4c834c2d9408 ... tFiles.php

There were a few places where the 'feel' of the demo had something that the real orchestra was perhaps missing, but you cannot compare the realism in any way. Do you agree?

~C


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Forgot to mention that we chose to lower the key of Karma Nirvana by a semitone for the real thing, and that we also had 20 ladies from the Bach Choir that we recorded after the LSO, who appear on both tracks.

East West Symphonic Choir samples were used in the mock ups.

That's all folks!

Chris


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

*I think you'll like this!*

Hi again,

I have uploaded videos of the recording session! These will feature in a UK car series called Pulling Power where there will be a section about the creation of the whole Lexus Symphony Orchestra project. The program makers did a really excellent job of putting together all the 2 camera footage from multiple takes so it looks like a multi camera setup!

Here's a link to Summon the Hero: Yes, there was no live Duduk at the beginning so I got them to use a close up of the oboe!

http://www.mailbigfile.com/cb6ed533367b ... tFiles.php

and to Karma Nirvana

http://www.mailbigfile.com/86a9d077f340 ... tFiles.php

Yes, I'm the very worried looking grey haired guy in the control room...

Later guys,

Chris


----------



## Sovereign (Aug 5, 2007)

ChrisAxia @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> Hey guys & girls,
> 
> Sovereign, I use QLSO Gold Pro for orch stuff. Lux, thank you!


Hi Chris,

Great stuff, thanks for uploading those vids too. Always cool to look at.

That said, I don't think QLSO would give you a LSO-like mockup no matter how hard you tried. The custom libs of TJ would get you way closer. :wink:


----------



## John DeBorde (Aug 5, 2007)

thanks for posting Chris. Great work and I enjoyed checking it out. congrats on the gig too! not too shabby....

-john


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Hi again Sovereign,

Thank you for the positive feedback. Yes, exactly. No matter how much time I spend tweaking QLSO, there's no way I could get close to the sound of the LSO. I'm sure TJ could get closer, but still nowhere near for this style of music IMO. I think it'll be a while before we put orchestras out of business!

~C


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Thank you John! Glad you enjoyed listening/watching!!

Chris


----------



## Niah (Aug 5, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> I think we all know even Thomas can't get near the quality of the LSO with samples. You never hear any exposed string heavy stuff from him probably since strings are the weakest group in samples. Chris you've officially moved onto my forum composers good composers list. That's great music and refreshing to hear real orchestra, especially the LSO. Since it's car music I had a feeling some David Arnold would show up.



This is true, but then again TJ posted a strings-only piece a while back that it's one of the most impressive things I have heard.


----------



## Ed (Aug 5, 2007)

Niah @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> This is true, but then again TJ posted a strings-only piece a while back that it's one of the most impressive things I have heard.



Still not as good as the LSO though


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Hey Ed & Niah,

It would be interesting to revisit TJ's string demo to see if it is still as good as you/we imagine? I know I can do pretty convincing stuff with QLSO if the style is 'suitable', and I'm still quite pleased with my all QLSO Gold score for the BBC drama "The Impressionists", although of course it would have sounded better with the LSO!! Damn BBC budgets...

~C


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Aug 5, 2007)

Regarding Hans setup: 

Not all his scores are full orchestra. Some are somewhat of a hybrid. You can hear it actually in some current movies. There are also cases where just a few short tracks (like in batman begins) have a degree of sampled orchestration.

As far as mockups go:

I'm pretty sure if I was contracted to write a score for an actual orchestra (I would cream my pants if it was LSO) I would still write the best and most realistic mockup I could (depending on time of course) simply because it's a challenge I enjoy, not to mention it's best for the director to understand the exact sound I envision, and whether they approve.

A pretty interesting example is to listen to "More music from Gladiator" it contains the mockup version of The Barbarian Horde.

When it comes to interval sampling:

I think most libraries should work and improve this. I have the entire VSL lib and with the exception of a few instruments, they've done a very good job at the legato, and in some cases portamento. I personally would not want the next best orchestral library out tòãe   ^^Vãe   ^^Wãe   ^^Xãe   ^^Yãe   ^^Zãe   ^^[ãe   ^^\ãe


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 5, 2007)

I'm pretty surprised the piano stuff in Summon the hero wasn't influenced by Arnold's music for Vesper in the latest bond film, sounds kinda similar. BTW I can listen to that cue and actually really enjoy it like I enjoy the regular film music I listen to which is very rare. There's maybe 5 cues i've heard from forum members over the years that fall in that category. 8)


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Good morning Nathan,

As you say, Hans' scores are usually hybrids, and according to my orchestrator/conductor Alastair who has worked with Zimmer, the samples are usually louder than the real orchestra in the mix! I remember Alastair telling me not to be worried about having to use samples if I felt they were needed anywhere. As I have already stated, it all depends on the style of music and what you wish to achieve.

Regarding mock ups, yes, I wish I'd had the time to make them better, but time was very limited and remember this was not a score to picture. The head of Lexus marketing in the UK is also a musician, so he understood the limitations of the demos and could envisage the real thing.

The Karma Nirvana demo is very 'dry' in comparison to my final mix, and is literally just QLSO 'out of the box'. The decision to make it sound 'bigger' came much later on.

~C


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Hey Choco,

I'll have to check out Arnold's score, as I wrote this way before I saw the latest Bond Film! I'm guessing it's similar because I wrote the intro in the style of John Barry and I guess Arnold also writes to stay in Barry's style somewhat?! We're both ripping Barry off!!! 

~C


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Aug 5, 2007)

> the samples are usually louder than the real orchestra in the mix!



I think this is precisely what gives that fat sound he gets, which is pretty unique in some cases. Personally, I think it's not a bad idea. Cellos not loud enough, let's layer some sampled cello to fatten it up.

You can do this with choirs too. Such as using EWSC with a few real vocalists can trick some people into thinking it's real.

Sample libraries have gotten to the point where any untrained ear (audience wise) doesn't know the difference between VSL/EW/etc and a real orchestra. From this point on, it's really for us. The more realistic it sounds, the more it pleases us.

I mean, it's not even really the means to replace real musicians, it's just more of a scientific challenge.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 5, 2007)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Aug 06 said:


> I think this is precisely what gives that fat sound he gets, which is pretty unique in some cases. Personally, I think it's not a bad idea. Cellos not loud enough, let's layer some sampled cello to fatten it up.



Exactly, the end justifies the means. If it sounds good, it is good! Actually, I used QLSO Basses and Cellos in parts of Summon the Hero (can the 'eagle-eared' spot where?) and some QLSO Gliss violins in Karma Nirvana (the Glock and Marimba are also QLSO). 

Zimmer goes for a certain sound in his 'epic' scores and samples help him achieve this. One cannot afford to be a purist in this business. If adding samples to an orchestral recording improves the result, then it is justified, no?

~C


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 6, 2007)

*Maurice Murphy retires from the LSO...*

Hey guys,

Thought you'd like to hear an MP3 tribute to Maurice Murphy, the legendary trumpet player who we've all grown up hearing on Star Wars, Raiders, Superman etc. Looks like he did one of his last ever LSO sessions with us (you can see him in the Lexus videos).

http://lso.co.uk/mauricemurphy

Quite an honour to know that I had the same guy playing my stuff that has recorded for the greats.

~C


----------



## Sovereign (Aug 7, 2007)

Ed @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> Niah @ Sun Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> > This is true, but then again TJ posted a strings-only piece a while back that it's one of the most impressive things I have heard.
> ...


The LSO has a very typical sound, especially coupled with the hall the LSO is recorded in. So if we want the LSO sound, the only viable option would be to do what Zimmer did. Record it, with instruments in place, like one would do with a regular recording session.


----------



## Ed (Aug 7, 2007)

Sovereign @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Ed @ Sun Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah @ Sun Aug 05 said:
> ...



Im not just talking about the "sound", Im talking about how they play. The strings at the Proms wasnt the LSO, it was just the BBC something or other, but point being it still sounded great and a world away from samples, even the slow stuff Ive heard from TJ, that is unless he has newer examples hidden away that do sound as good.

Ed


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 7, 2007)

Hey guys,

I don't think it really matters too much which of the top orchestras play. It's gonna sound great! I was at one of the Harry Potter sessions at Abbey Road earlier this year where Alastair was conducting a session orchestra and they sounded amazing!!

BTW, all this mention of TJ. I actually asked him to orchestrate the Lexus stuff when the gig came up towards the end of last year, but he was busy until June of this year and had to decline! He is seriously in demand!! It would have been interesting to hear how differently he would have done things...

So, any comments on the rough mock ups compared to the real thing? 

Chris

PS We're leaving Tokyo for 3 days so won't be able to respond until my return.


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Aug 8, 2007)

Chris, I'd love to listen and comment but was unable to download...the site refuses downloads as the bandwidth limit has been passed, tried for a couple days now.


----------



## Fernando Warez (Aug 8, 2007)

Certainly one of the best demo i heard done with Gold. 

Thanks for sharing. The interview was cool tool. 8)


----------



## tgfoo (Aug 8, 2007)

I get the same problem that Johnny has. Perhaps you could rehost them somewhere else, or maybe someone who has already downloaded them could host them some place, if it's not to much of a problem.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 10, 2007)

Hey guys,

Back in Tokyo after our family trip to Kobe. To my (and my kids!) pleasant surprise, there is a Universal Studios theme park in the area! Only managed a few rides. Spiderman was good, and the Waterworld show was excellent!! My kids were too scared to do the Jurassic Park ride, but it was nice to hear JW's great music all around the park, and hear so much fantastic music everywhere.

OK, back to business. I've uploaded all 6 files again. They should be available for 14 days.

Summon the Hero-LSO mix

http://www.mailbigfile.com/862919ca7a48 ... tFiles.php


Karma Nirvana-LSO mix

http://www.mailbigfile.com/17ab7d9428c3 ... tFiles.php

BTW, I had to unfortunately mix the tracks myself as a stereo mix of the tracks was not part of the project, believe it or not! We did 5.1 mixes at another studio, but these do not fold down to stereo well, as I discovered.

You obviously have to use the close mics a fair amount for a 5.1 mix, but for stereo, I realised that this gives a very harsh sound, and the close mics are used much more sparingly, and are drastically EQd in these mixes. Any comments on the mix quality? All done in Logic! Would have been nice to mix it at AIR as well...I wonder how much better they would sound in the hands of someone who really knows what they're doing!

Summon the Hero-Demo

http://www.mailbigfile.com/1524f1e6011d ... tFiles.php


Karma Nirvana-Demo

http://www.mailbigfile.com/4b8440e8e12c ... tFiles.php



Summon the Hero-Video

http://www.mailbigfile.com/589e9eb41f7b ... tFiles.php



Karma Nirvana-Video

http://www.mailbigfile.com/7da172c57cba ... tFiles.php



Looking forward to any comments! 

Chris


----------



## Ed (Aug 13, 2007)

Chris, the more I listen to these the more I love them. And you should be proud of the mix I think it sounds great especially considering you "didnt know what you were doing".


----------



## rgames (Aug 13, 2007)

ChrisAxia @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> There were a few places where the 'feel' of the demo had something that the real orchestra was perhaps missing, but you cannot compare the realism in any way. Do you agree?~C



Yes - the part where I could "feel" the horns bursting veins in their necks! That motif seems to have made its way into the trumpets in the live version (around 3:50 - 4:00 if I remember correctly?) Be honest - was there a revolt? 

Nice work - you're lucky to have recorded with such a great orchestra!

rgames


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 13, 2007)

Hey guys,

Thanks for your responses.

Polarbear, here's yet another link for 'Hero'-LSO mix
http://www.mailbigfile.com/a57112c46482 ... tFiles.php

As you say, the strings really give things away, but not only in the emotional passages. What shocked me as much was the short notes on violins in the middle section of 'Hero'. And I'm guessing the videos gave you the creeps because some of the LSO players are so old they look like corpses, hehehe!!

Rgames, thanks for the kind words. I think the timing reference you gave is wrong, but what I think you're talking about were actually trumpet samples, where Alastair used SAM trumpets (I don't remember moving any horns to trumpets in the score). He programmed them very nicely and they had this really nice 'pulsing' effect in the choruses of 'Hero'. The sound of the real trumpets was so different, and they didn't nail the 'feel' also. We had only a 3 hour session to record 20 minutes of music (2 classical pieces also) and trust me, it's not enough time to get everything you need! I'm finally used to the sound of the LSO trumpets, but it did take a whle...

Ed, what can I say but thank you very much! I'm learning, as we all are!!

Thanks for listening guys. I look forward to hearing some of your masterpieces very soon!

~C


----------



## Niah (Aug 13, 2007)

Hey Chris I think your QLSO demos sound really great !

The strings didn't bothered me until I heard the same piece played by the LSO. Those strings are just creepy.


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Aug 13, 2007)

Niah @ Mon Aug 13 said:


> The strings didn't bothered me until I heard the same piece played by the LSO. Those strings are just creepy.



Chris, 

Perhaps the translation PolarBear was aiming at was "gave me the chills..."?

Thanks for sharing your foray into the hallowed grounds. Enjoyed your work, great job on the mock-ups (I'd say approaching optimal for samples)...those fluid LSO string lines do give the game away though, don't they? 

Cheers.

P.S. I know it's a challenge giving everything their own space in a downmix...I actually prefer your mock-up on the introduction to Karma. Sounds more open.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 13, 2007)

Hi again guys,

Thanks Niah, but it's only Karma Nirvana that's QLSO. The 'Hero' mock-up was by Alastair with various libs. Believe me, there was very little tweaking on Karma, and I discovered an easy trick for quickly getting fairly fluid yet emotional violin lines by layering one of the 'lyrical' patches with the 'grand detache' patch and playing with the level balance between the two. The Detache patch gives the attack and the Lyrical patch 'takes over' when the detache 'runs out'.

Johnny! Yes, I guess that was what Polar Bear meant, but it was a good opportuntity for me to joke about the old LSO players, hehehe!! Thanks for the positive feedback. Interesting that you prefer the intro to Karma in the mock-up. If by intro you mean just the piano/marimba/drum section, this is purely a mix thing, as both the LSO piano and marimba players were reduced to 'actors' after I decided to go with my original samples! I did however choose to use a much longer reverb time in the final mix, so I'm guessing you prefer the 'cleaner' sound of the shorter reverb. Hmm, maybe I shouldn't have messed with that bit? Oh well, too late now!

Thanks again for the positive feedback everyone. The live events take place this weekend and are being filmed for the documentary. I hope to have some footage next month and will share it with you guys if possible. 12 Lexus 460s, 5 meter video screen, synchronised lighting. Should look nice!

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## Pando (Aug 13, 2007)

Chris, I would very much like you hear your music, but unfortunately I'm getting this message on your first link:



> Unfortunately, there have been too many requests for the file SUMMON THE HERO 22-07-07 M.mp3 and therefore it has been removed.



Could you kindly post it again with some other provider? Speedyshare (http://www.speedyshare.com) is fairly reliable and allows more people to download the file...

Many thanks.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 14, 2007)

Sorry Pando,

Did you try the most recent link I posted?

http://www.mailbigfile.com/a57112c46482 ... tFiles.php

It is still 'active'

~C


----------



## Pando (Aug 14, 2007)

Ah yes, thank you. This works. Great stuff, the LSO really shines with the dark strings, almost impossible to replicate it with a mockup...


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 14, 2007)

Thank you for the kind words Pando! 

Glad you enjoyed the LSO's performance (I did have to whip them a few times to get a decent performance, hehehe!!). BTW, there are about 9 or 10 edit points across each piece. Not easy when you're editing over 40 plus tracks in Logic (yeah, I know I should have used ProTools....)

~C


----------



## PolarBear (Aug 14, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Tue Aug 14 said:


> Niah @ Mon Aug 13 said:
> 
> 
> > The strings didn't bothered me until I heard the same piece played by the LSO. Those strings are just creepy.
> ...



Haha, well, dictionary error here. What I meant was, that I was emotionally touched by the pieces. So probably the right term I looked for was that I got goosebumps, but in a good way.  Both phrases are translated to the same phrase in german, but obviously have two different meanings.

So no skulls to frighten me, I'm sorry. Just excellent players amazing me. :D Wondering how long it took them to rehearse these things...

All the best,
PolarBear


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 14, 2007)

PolarBear @ Tue Aug 14 said:


> Haha, well, dictionary error here. What I meant was, that I was emotionally touched by the pieces. So probably the right term I looked for was that I got goosebumps, but in a good way.  Both phrases are translated to the same phrase in german, but obviously have two different meanings.
> 
> So no skulls to frighten me, I'm sorry. Just excellent players amazing me. :D Wondering how long it took them to rehearse these things...



Wow! Really nice to hear that the music had such an effect on you!! Rehearsal? No such thing! We had 3 hours in which the LSO had to learn and perform the pieces. They are literally sight reading from the start, and everything is recorded. Once we were confident we had a section recorded well enough, we would 'drop-in' and move onto the next section.

There's no other way when you have such limited time. I was worried, and had fewer good takes of each section than I expected, but managed to get a decent result. Wish we had another hour with them, but we got 'squeezed' on the budget unfortunately. Next time (if there is one!) I'll push for a 4 hour session! 

Thanks again for listening,

Chris


----------



## mixolydian (Aug 14, 2007)

Great to have an insight in your work. With Hero I'm in goosebumps-city, finally at 4:00. 

Is it possible you upload "Karma Nirvana-LSO mix" and "Summon the Hero-Demo" once again? I'm just too late.

Kai


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 14, 2007)

Glad you liked 'Hero' Kai! Please see my post at the beginning of page 3 of this thread where I posted all 6 links again. They appear to be active still. If not I'll upload them again.

Peter! Yes, your view is exactly right, and the only way when the orchestra is learning a new piece and you have such a short amount of time. The drop-in points were not too critical ultimately, and my edit points rarely coincided exactly with the drop-in points. There's only one edit that is still audible to me, and that's near the beginning of the quiet stacc violin section after we hear the main theme of 'Hero' the first time. I just didn't have another take!! Looks like we moved on without checking properly. Oh well....

Thanks guys,

Chris


----------



## mixolydian (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks, Chris. I fear "Karma Nirvana-LSO mix" and "Summon the Hero-Demo" are not working anymore.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 14, 2007)

Sorry about that! OK, here's Karma Nirvana LSO

http://www.mailbigfile.com/bff3a6f031e9 ... tFiles.php

and Summon the Hero demo

http://www.mailbigfile.com/a854918c3033 ... tFiles.php

and just in case, Summon the Hero LSO

http://www.mailbigfile.com/22b656d56957 ... tFiles.php

Cheers,

~C


----------



## loydb (Aug 14, 2007)

Ok, this should be the final resting home for them:

Final Karma Nirvana: http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotive/Karma_Nirvana.mp3 (http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotiv ... irvana.mp3)

Demo Karma Nirvana: http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotive/Karma_Nirvana_Demo.mp3 (http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotiv ... a_Demo.mp3)

Movie Karma Nirvana: http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotive/Karma_Nirvana_LSO_choir.mp4 (http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotiv ... _choir.mp4)

Final Summon the Hero: http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotive/Summon_the_Hero.mp3 (http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotiv ... e_Hero.mp3)

Demo Summon the Hero: http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotive/Summon_the_Hero_Demo.mp3 (http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotiv ... o_Demo.mp3)

Movie Summon the Hero: http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotive/Summon_the_Hero_LSO_Choir.mp4 (http://www.blankenship.com/music/emotiv ... _Choir.mp4)


----------



## tgfoo (Aug 15, 2007)

Just want to chime in and say that this is one of the best mock ups I've ever heard done with Gold. Granted, it still doesn't hold a candle to the LSO.... but great pieces.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks guys,

Again, 'Hero' was NOT done with QLSO Gold (maybe Alastair used a little QLSO), but Karma Nirvana was, although as you can hear, this was not a full orchestration. I had to leave something for Alastair to do, hehehe!! Also, I used no reverb on Karma Nirvana. It's just the 'sound' of QLSO. I know that with the full orchestration and some tweaking, the Karma demo could have sounded a lot better!

Thanks again for the positive feedback everyone. It means a lot coming from such a talented bunch of people here on the forum. I just hope someone else trusts me with a full orchestra again, in the not too distant future! 

Chris


----------



## ComposerDude (Aug 16, 2007)

We're looking forward to it!


----------



## Per Lichtman (Jan 4, 2013)

I know thread is several years old but I was really curious to hear the recordings.

Does anybody still have the mock-ups and LSO performances, etc.?


----------



## ChrisAxia (Jan 5, 2013)

Hi Per,

You can see and hear the final recordings on my website www.chrisnicolaides.co.uk under the video section. I don't think it would be worth hearing the old mock ups. Things have come a long way in 5 years!

~Chris


----------



## Per Lichtman (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks Chris, I'll check it out. But I would still be interested in hearing the mock-ups.

Things have come a long way in 5 years but just because I use Hollywood Strings doesn't mean I stopped using my older EWQLSO, GOS, or Horizon Series VSL libraries.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Jan 5, 2013)

The mock ups are probably hiding somewhere on my old G5, which has now been relegated to use as the 'family' computer. If I can find them easily I'll send you a link. 

~C


----------



## Per Lichtman (Jan 5, 2013)

Please don't make too much effort on my behalf, but if you find them, I will appreciate it.

I just enjoyed listening to the majority of the video for "Summon the Hero" before my browser decided to have a cow, and I'm looking forward to enjoying the rest later.


----------



## mixolydian (Jan 5, 2013)

I probably can help out as I have the tracks in my collection.


----------



## Per Lichtman (Jan 5, 2013)

@mixolydian That would be great. Thanks.


----------



## mixolydian (Jan 5, 2013)

I'll pm the links in a minute.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks Mixolydian. Saves me trying to dig out those old files. BTW, a slight oversight on Lexus' part meant that there was no budget for stereo mixes. We did 5.1 mixes in Hans Zimmer's old London studio coincidentally, but the main project was to pipe the sounds out of the 12 LS460s.

As such, I had to do the stereo mixes myself, and now, five years on, I realise how bad they are! So, please forgive the mixes on my website. BTW, there are videos on YouTube now showing the whole creative process, leading to the 'live' performances by the 12 cars. Here's the first video featuring the recording at AIR studios http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTVDEroOo30

Thanks,

~C


----------

