# First time using HZ Piano for solo piece



## Cass Hansen (Jan 6, 2016)

Love this piano! Finally, a virtual piano that has SOUL! It’s like the difference between using a modern professional violin and a Stradivarius or Guarneri violin. . I agree with Hans, this piano fosters creativity you never knew you had. 

As for this piece, quite simple. A late summer/ early fall stroll thru bucolic terrain replete with lake, meadows and streams. Birds chirping, butterflies fluttering about, and the fragrance of grasses, flowers, and pine trees. I often walk my dogs in the countryside and one such trip enticed me to write this piece.

Comments always welcomed.


Here's the first 4 pages of score if interested. 

https://app.box.com/s/ah6d64fkts1wlymvekho38m1p1wep7on
Cass


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## dimtsak (Jan 6, 2016)

Nice piece Cass, didn't even realised it was almost 8 minutes.

Of course i stopped following the score from page 5 on..
Some kind of modern art is happening there!

Really how did you come up with the score?
Is this the output from your sequencer?


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 6, 2016)

Best demo with HZ Piano I've heard so far! Well done, Cass!

Finally I can hear the acoustics of the hall with this piano and I must say I like the sound quality very much! I'm a classical pianist and I have recorded lots of famous pianists in (equally famous) concert halls for years, so I'm not really easy to please. There's definitely a lot of quality in the sound of this library.

The only thing I'm not very happy with is Spitfire's choice of the piano. Why did they use this particular grand piano, when there are so many beautiful instruments to choose from? Because this is supposed to be a Hans Zimmer piano, I think they should have picked a piano with a softer mezzo-forte/forte, preferably a German one. Pianissimo on this instrument is very good by the way, but it's in the mp-mf dynamic range where I expected a much more delicate tone. This is the range where many virtual piano's fail, in my opinion. This piano doesn't really fail, but it would have been so much better if they had chosen a different grand piano.

Maybe a Fazioli F308 (10'3") would have been a much better choice for a Hans Zimmer piano, given the outstanding acoustics of the venue.

Anyway, great piece of music, thanks a lot Cass!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Redolasire (Jan 7, 2016)

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Best demo with HZ Piano I've heard so far! Well done, Cass!
> 
> Finally I can hear the acoustics of the hall with this piano and I must say I like the sound quality very much! I'm a classical pianist and I have recorded lots of famous pianists in (equally famous) concert halls for years, so I'm not really easy to please. There's definitely a lot of quality in the sound of this library.
> 
> ...


Hello Jerome, the demo of Cass Hansen is indeed very fine. In the other end, i find the sound of this piano very thin, the sound is not as round as i exept for a concert piano Is it the piano ? Probably...


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## Alatar (Jan 7, 2016)

Nice composition Cass.

But about the HZ piano:

Stop!

This sounds absolutely horrible! There seems to be no understanding of how a piano should sound, no thought or talent or affinity put into the samples.
Not only is the diletantic and artless sampling doing a huge, great disservice to this piano library, but the lack of a rich sound is truly painful!
To HZ I want to say: Understand the intention of a piano first! Learn how to really sample a piano. This will take a lot of time, but it is going to be worth it.
But at the moment this piano is - right from the start - a bad concept done appallingly badly.


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## germancomponist (Jan 7, 2016)

Alatar said:


> Nice composition Cass.
> 
> But about the HZ piano:
> 
> ...


The sound of this piano is sooo great, I love it!
Interesting that someone else thinks he is able to tell me how a piano should sound. So I am wrong with my personal taste?
My personal taste is worth nothing, because it did not meet your expectations. Alatar?
Huh .... . Your arrogance is delicious!
You tell the rest of the world what is right and what is wrong?
I will tell you this: Nothing is right or wrong! In creation there is no "right or wrong"!


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## jmvideo (Jan 7, 2016)

Alatar said:


> Nice composition Cass.
> But about the HZ piano:
> Stop!
> This sounds absolutely horrible! There seems to be no understanding of how a piano should sound, no thought or talent or affinity put into the samples.



Sadly, Alatar's observation is harsh, but spot on. I cringed when I heard the very fist demos of HZ Piano, and have cringed at every demo since then, including this one.

germancomponist's piece is good, but the piano sounds like a cheap digital piano you would hear when walking in to a music store.


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## Redolasire (Jan 7, 2016)

jmvideo said:


> Sadly, Alatar's observation is harsh, but spot on. I cringed when I heard the very fist demos of HZ Piano, and have cringed at every demo since then, including this one.
> 
> germancomponist's piece is good, but the piano sounds like a cheap digital piano you would hear when walking in to a music store.


Hello JmVideo. I have observing the same thing concerning this piano. Tiny sound, very hard to find of good mic combinations, lack of dynamic control. Piano sound it's a personnal taste but believe me, this one comparing to my other piano Library is unusable as a solo instrument. Is Spitfire team will listen to their users and forum members ?


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## Redolasire (Jan 7, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> The sound of this piano is sooo great, I love it!
> Interesting that someone else thinks he is able to tell me how a piano should sound. So I am wrong with my personal taste?
> My personal taste is worth nothing, because it did not meet your expectations. Alatar?
> Huh .... . Your arrogance is delicious!
> ...


Hello Germancomponist. Taste is personal of course. Do you own the HZ piano ? If yes, do you use it and compare it to other piano Library ?


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## germancomponist (Jan 7, 2016)

I compare the sound only. You know, film music isn't concert music! Sometimes a ppp piano note has to fight against an fff-playing full orchestra in film music ... . And here we go ... .


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## rottoy (Jan 7, 2016)

The overall feel (from the demo) sounds like that of a tiny grand with an almost tinny tone. 
The mids seem to lack a certain warmth.
But given the mic positions and a bit of EQ I don't see how you couldn't 
make it work in most situations.


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## Redolasire (Jan 7, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> I compare the sound only. You know, film music isn't concert music! Sometimes a ppp piano note has to fight against an fff-playing full orchestra in film music ... . And here we go ... .


It's a point of view. I respect that but it's when you use it and try it that you see the limitations of this instrument...


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## jacobthestupendous (Jan 7, 2016)

I think Alatar _might_ be satirizing http://vi-control.net/community/threads/can-anyone-test-elgar-too.50808/ (this little thread) over here.


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## germancomponist (Jan 7, 2016)

I take a sampled instrument for what it is done for. And this piano was done for catching the sound what sounds great in film music. I never thought this will be the ultimate solo pianists tool. And I am sure, nor Spitfire and nor Hans thought so ... .


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 7, 2016)

I'm listening to the new Spitfire demo (Rachmaninoff) right now, and I'm starting to get a better picture of HZ Piano. The differences in character and tone between the various mics seem to be too big to make them blend naturally. In the Rachmaninoff demo it's almost as if there are two piano's in the hall, one for the soft dynamics, one for mezzo forte and louder.

To 'correct' this, a lot of mixing needs to be done by the end-user, which could be less efficient than to just record the piano part you need in a studio or concert hall that suits your needs.

I must say that I really like the sound of some of the mics (I can hear some things that I have never heard in any other piano library), as long as the piano stays within the range of pianissimo-piano. I'm not sure that makes it worth the investment.

Maybe Spitfire should consider splitting up the library, improve it, and then perhaps add a less ambitious, smaller HZ Piano to their product catalog for general/average use, with a consistent dynamic range for every mic position, and with only a few mic positions to make the instrument less intimidating and complex.

I would definitely buy such a piano, if it's not too expensive, of course.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Penthagram (Jan 7, 2016)

I didn´t like the overall sound, but i like the forte register from what i have heard from the demo. But considering the massive amount of space this take in your hard drive, this is a no way for me. I rather prefer the sample libraries who offer me a personal approach to an instrument ( Una Corda, Piano in Blue,Tina guo....) i prefer less Mics and options, but a leap forward in personality and emotion. I was expecting more from this piano and had high hopes  Just my humble Opinion!


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 7, 2016)

dimtsak said:


> Nice piece Cass, didn't even realised it was almost 8 minutes.
> 
> Of course i stopped following the score from page 5 on..
> Some kind of modern art is happening there!
> ...


I'm glad Dimitris you didn't say it felt like 20 minutes or better yet, endless! 

As far as the score, that’s the latest in modern score writing don’t you know. Ahem…….okay….big oops! Yes, page 5 on looks like a Jackson Pollock painting but obviously the score is not finished yet. My apologies, has been corrected. 

I use the scoring program within Cubase to print scores. I use to use both Finale and Sibelius, but I find it easier to have all functions in the same program. Cubase’s scoring programing doesn’t have all the bells and whistles of the other two, but it does a decent job (on orchestral scores also) so I prefer using it; just saves time and if I change anything, either in the score or in the midi key editor of Cubase, it corrects it in the other automatically.

Thanks for the post.
Cass


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 7, 2016)

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Best demo with HZ Piano I've heard so far! Well done, Cass!
> 
> Finally I can hear the acoustics of the hall with this piano and I must say I like the sound quality very much! I'm a classical pianist and I have recorded lots of famous pianists in (equally famous) concert halls for years, so I'm not really easy to please. There's definitely a lot of quality in the sound of this library.
> 
> ...



Hey, Jerome and Redolasire……. Thanks for your thoughts on this. The piano does produces an overall good sound in my opinion but of course it would have been better if the piano was a top-end concert model and not a film studio one, especially if you’re using it for concert performances.

But I think the point of this library for Hans was to capture this particular piano’s essence because of how it inspired him personally to compose for film; in other words his personal musical modus operandi is strongly linked to this piano. At least, that’s how I took it to be.

So yes, maybe not the best piano out there for all purposes, but then each and every piano out there has it’s own tonal and color characteristics which are then chosen by each individuals own taste for whatever genre they’re composing for, which is as varied as the pianos. 

As far as the tonal reproduction on my track, the “not quite authentic” sounding midrange that Jerome stated or the “thinness” that Redolasire stated is most likely due perhaps to my choice of microphone mixing and not the library’s or piano’s fault. I discover as I use this library more and more, that the choices that sculpture the sound is endless due to the incredible array of microphones provided therein. One can really tailor the sound to just about any kind of tonal quality you’re looking for, but it does take time to do so. I keep finding new combinations of mic settings which are better than my last set.

I would recommend for spitfire to come up with some tonal color presets for all these mics for a starting point for most people in a future update because the setup can be overwhelming. That way one can breeze through many presets and find the one that can be tailored/modified to their own tastes. This library is so immense, it would be helpful. And to scale back and make a pared down version at less cost.

For this piece, I wanted a bright sound so I chose “bright” mics. However, Jerome, I could have used B,C, or D spot mics (or mid mics) which have a more mellow sound to cut the midrange attacks down a bit or use the “easy Tweaks” dials on the GUI to adjust EQ. I find that a slight dial up of the “boom” dial cuts out some of the strident/bright frequencies very well with no further EQing on my part needed.

In this setup I used the “Distant Compensated Signals” category because of the clarity it evokes but of course the side effect, if your looking for authenticity, is that the reflections and reverb is not a 100% natural or accurate. Regardless, I used the TC spot B mic and the TC Mid C mic patches from this category on the same midi channel and then overlaid the Full Bright patch on the same channel. Regarding the Full Bright patch, I turned off the A & C mics (spot, mid) completely and only used a small amount of room and surround mics from the patch for this track.

I currently composing a new piece with a totally different mic setup. When I post it, you can compare and tell me what you think about that mic mix. 

Anyway, I thank you both for your feedback. I can use it to try to perfect my HZ template as it relates to concert piano music.

Cass


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 7, 2016)

Alatar said:


> Nice composition Cass.
> 
> But about the HZ piano:
> 
> ...



Alatar, Thanks for the thumbs up on the piece and your thumbs down (to the floor) on the quality.

I always find it amazing how every sensory organ we humans possess can vary so dramatically in its feedback to each of our brains. I hear where you’re coming from though. I use to play the oboe professionally and to this date I cringe at every oboe library out there. (Maybe Headshot feels that way too since he used one real instrument, the oboe on his Starwars mockup.)

Anyway, I digress. So if you think this piano reeks of authenticity, then there must be some truth to your conviction. I can point out that Jerome felt it sounded pretty good, lacking in the midrange area, but overall, not bad. I feel pretty much as he does. So, the truth probably lies somewhere between our takes on this and then again, maybe not. It will be interesting to see how others feel. Thanks again for the feedback, I’m glad you shared your thoughts.

Cass


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 7, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> The sound of this piano is sooo great, I love it!
> Interesting that someone else thinks he is able to tell me how a piano should sound. So I am wrong with my personal taste?
> My personal taste is worth nothing, because it did not meet your expectations. Alatar?
> Huh .... . Your arrogance is delicious!
> ...



Gunther, thanks for your post. I was beginning to think I was the only one out there who enjoyed the sound of this piano and that there must be something wrong with my hearing or that I’m just incapable of judging a good quality piano sound. The piano does sound small in size, I don’t argue that, but I don’t always need a 9 foot piano lush resonate piano for my purposes. I do enjoy a thinner sound at times. I enjoy hearing a Mozart symphony with a large modern day orchestra and I enjoy hearing it with a scaled back or chamber orchestra. I don’t really care if the orchestral size is authentic or not. I like both versions. Same goes with pianos, I like all the different colors and sounds of many pianos. I don’t have a favorite acoustic piano or a favorite VSTI piano, never will. 

And getting back to the other subject, of course it’s fact that the antagonists of something are always louder than the proponents for the same thing, probably due to their fired up passions about disliking it. Which is fine, I have no problem with that. But It’s just good to hear a positive viewpoint too. Thanks.

Cass


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## Penthagram (Jan 7, 2016)

Cass, by the way, I really liked your piece  congratulations


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## blougui (Jan 7, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I think Alatar _might_ be satirizing http://vi-control.net/community/threads/can-anyone-test-elgar-too.50808/ (this little thread) over here.


Offtopic :Thread has vanished.


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## jacobthestupendous (Jan 7, 2016)

blougui said:


> Offtopic :Thread has vanished.


Weird.


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## Alatar (Jan 7, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I think Alatar _might_ be satirizing http://vi-control.net/community/threads/can-anyone-test-elgar-too.50808/ (this little thread) over here.



Yes indeed. I was satirizing that thread, which is gone now. My answer was a 1:1 copy of the words of HZ. (I think he went way out of line.) I was curious, what would happen if I apply his words in a totally different context.

@Cass Hansen: Sorry for the OT. I do like your piece.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 7, 2016)

blougui said:


> Offtopic :Thread has vanished.


 

I don't like censorship, but that thread was a disgrace. While someone just made a short Elgar mockup, some of the comments in the thread made it look like the OP had made a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad.

Really awkward.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Markus S (Jan 8, 2016)

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I don't like censorship, but that thread was a disgrace. While someone just made a short Elgar mockup, some of the comments in the thread made it look like the OP had made a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad.
> 
> Really awkward.
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen



I am amazed at the stuff one can read on this forum (including the mysteriously vanished thread). Are you a muslim? Is this an Islam inspired forum? You make it sound like it's a generally accepted value, that making a cartoon of the "Prophet" is the worst thing (or a horrible thing in general) someone could do. This almost to the day a year after people get shot in Paris for doing just this. So are you implying they did something so horrible that shooting them is sort of justified? Of course you didn't. So please try to think before posting stuff like this.


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## Sebastianmu (Jan 8, 2016)

Markus S said:


> I am amazed at the stuff one can read on this forum (including the mysteriously vanished thread). Are you a muslim? Is this an Islam inspired forum? You make it sound like it's a generally accepted value, that making a cartoon of the "Prophet" is the worst thing (or a horrible thing in general) someone could do. This almost to the day a year after people get shot in Paris for doing just this. So are you implying they did something so horrible that shooting them is sort of justified? Of course you didn't. So please try to think before posting stuff like this.


I think, what he meant was, people were overreacting to the mock-ups in the way fundamentalists overreact to certain religious cartoons.


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## Markus S (Jan 8, 2016)

Sebastianmu said:


> I think, what he meant was, people were overreacting to the mock-ups in the way fundamentalists overreact to certain religious cartoons.


That might be or might not be. You would be surprised how many people think like this actually, in France and all over the world (not only muslims). That : "Charlie Hebdo" went over the line, they deliberately provoked the Islamists etc. So that indirectly it was their fault.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 8, 2016)

Nice piano piece. Touch of the Debusseys!


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 8, 2016)

Markus S said:


> I am amazed at the stuff one can read on this forum (including the mysteriously vanished thread). Are you a muslim? Is this an Islam inspired forum? You make it sound like it's a generally accepted value, that making a cartoon of the "Prophet" is the worst thing (or a horrible thing in general) someone could do. This almost to the day a year after people get shot in Paris for doing just this. So are you implying they did something so horrible that shooting them is sort of justified? Of course you didn't. So please try to think before posting stuff like this.


 

Wow, you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

First of all, as Sebastian already explained, I was referring to a thread in which some forum members over-reacted to the Elgar mockup of a respected composer, who sadly left this forum as a result of the criticism.

Secondly, I'm not a muslim, nor is my family. My brother is a well known priest.

Thirdly, I happen to be a political cartoonist who has to live under the pressure of the Paris aftermath every single day, and who has to reassure his kids that nothing will happen to us because of what I do for a living. Unless you are a cartoonist living in constant fear yourself, why don't you just apologize instead of attacking a cartoonist who cares about the values and traditions of our Western civilization?

Finally, it's not ok to draw any cartoon featuring the prophet Muhammad, since the drawing itself is insulting to all Muslims. If you think that has anything to do with the freedom of speech, then you are as ignorant as you are intolerant.

Please, keep this forum a safe place for cartoonists, as well as respected composers who make themselves vulnerable by posting their music in this forum. If you don't understand humor and irony, just ask for an explanation, and I'm sure people here will be happy to help you understand the world around you. Just make sure you don't start shooting around like a madman before you even listened what people were actually trying to say.

As a cartoonist, I will not allow people like you to tell me what I should say and shouldn't say. As long as there is mutual respect, there will be freedom of speech. You have done yourself a disservice by attacking the one forum member who you erroneously thought you were representing.

Marcus S. vs Irony: 0 - 1

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Markus S (Jan 8, 2016)

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Wow, you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
> 
> First of all, as Sebastian already explained, I was referring to a thread in which some forum members over-reacted to the Elgar mockup of a respected composer, who sadly left this forum as a result of the criticism.
> 
> ...



Well, thanks for clearing that up. 

I do not want to go into the details of everything you are throwing at me, but as a journalist, maybe you will understand that saying : "While someone just made a short Elgar mockup, some of the comments in the thread made it look like the OP had made a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad."

There is no sign of irony here to me. Maybe if I'd knew you personally I'd understand this as irony, but since I don't, and most people reading this don't, it stands and could be serious (as well as not serious).

Try this : "While someone just made a short Elgar mockup, some of the comments in the thread made it look like the OP was" black. (implying the way racist people overreact to colored skinned people) Funny? Ironic? Second degree?


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 8, 2016)

Markus S said:


> Well, thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> I do not want to go into the details of everything you are throwing at me, but as a journalist, maybe you will understand that saying : "While someone just made a short Elgar mockup, some of the comments in the thread made it look like the OP had made a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad."
> 
> ...


 

Now that you know exactly how I think about drawing the prophet Muhammed in general, I sure you are smart enough to reinterpret my words. What remains is our I disagreement regarding Muhammad drawings, but that's a different debate.

I won't even try to enter a debate on racial equality with you, like you suggested. But if it helps, I can assure you that I'm not black!  (<--- You see that, Marcus? That's a winking smiley warning you for possible offensive humor.  (<--- Oops, there's another one. I'm sorry!  (<--- This one means: "not really"  (...))))

No, seriously, stop barking up the wrong tree.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 8, 2016)

Hey why don't you guys take this to the off-topic section instead of fucking up this pianists thread aye?


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 8, 2016)

Cass Hansen said:


> As far as the tonal reproduction on my track, the “not quite authentic” sounding midrange that Jerome stated or the “thinness” that Redolasire stated is most likely due perhaps to my choice of microphone mixing and not the library’s or piano’s fault. I discover as I use this library more and more, that the choices that sculpture the sound is endless due to the incredible array of microphones provided therein. One can really tailor the sound to just about any kind of tonal quality you’re looking for, but it does take time to do so. I keep finding new combinations of mic settings which are better than my last set.
> 
> I would recommend for spitfire to come up with some tonal color presets for all these mics for a starting point for most people in a future update because the setup can be overwhelming. That way one can breeze through many presets and find the one that can be tailored/modified to their own tastes. This library is so immense, it would be helpful. And to scale back and make a pared down version at less cost.
> 
> ...


 

I'm looking forward to your new piece, Cass, and not just because of the piano library you are using. 

Keep up the good work!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 8, 2016)

Thanks Penthagram, Baron, and again, Jerome for the positive appraisal of the piece. One never knows when they write a piece if it will strike any chords in other people at all other than one's own chords. 

I'm busy writing a new piece which is of totally different character and I have to get back to it.

Thanks to all again for the responses, much appreciated.

Cass


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## prodigalson (Jan 8, 2016)

Really nice piece Cass!

I agree with Gunther that this piano can sound REALLY beautiful when used as I believe it's intended. Here's a little noodling using Only Mural Evolutions and HZP. Just dialed in some mic positions and noodled. Out of the box.


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## tiago (Jan 8, 2016)

What a lovely track, Cass!


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 8, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Really nice piece Cass!
> 
> I agree with Gunther that this piano can sound REALLY beautiful when used as I believe it's intended. Here's a little noodling using Only Mural Evolutions and HZP. Just dialed in some mic positions and noodled. Out of the box.



Your noodling comes out better than many of my best efforts! Totally agree with you and Gunther that the piano really blends well in a beautiful way when combined in an ensemble. Really cool track. Thanks for posting it.

Cass


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 8, 2016)

tiago said:


> What a lovely track, Cass!


Hey Tiago! This positive feedback is the impetuous I need to continue onward. I always have a lot of self-doubt about my old-school sensibility and especially on this forum, I guess "intimidation" would be the word because of all the stellar and gifted composers found within the confines of this forum creating all these incredible modern/contemporary pieces. But this style is where my heart lies.
So Thanks for the post! 

Cass


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## MA-Simon (Jan 9, 2016)

Thank you for sharing! Nice pice of Music!
I also like how the piano sounds. After all we already do have a lot of those warm & cuddly sfx pianos.


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## Cass Hansen (Jan 10, 2016)

MA-Simon said:


> I also like how the piano sounds. After all we already do have a lot of those warm & cuddly sfx pianos.


Very astute observation on your part, and sadly......I own most of them

Cass


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## sleepy hollow (Jan 10, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Just dialed in some mic positions and noodled. Out of the box.


That's some very fine noodling.


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## prodigalson (Jan 10, 2016)

sleepy hollow said:


> That's some very fine noodling.



Ha, thanks! I've been finding HZP a joy to play in this capacity. The flexibility of sound and tone is pretty amazing.


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