# Script copyright



## jdawg (May 16, 2011)

I'm very curious as to the copyright implications regarding scripts. If I make a script can i copyright it? Since technically it's part of native instruments technology is that even feasible? 

If a script has been posted on this forum and I take parts of it, change it slightly, is that breaking someones IP?

Really really interested in this before I continue creating libraries. 


thanks 
o/~


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## RiffWraith (May 16, 2011)

Interesting. I have also wondered about this.

I _think_ the answer is this: you can copyright applications, but you can't copyright code. ie, if you write an app that you then copyright, the compiled source code contained within is subject to copyright. But if you simply write some code that doesn't actually do anything - that is not subject to copyright. I am not 100% sure on that, but I think that's how it goes.

So, then the Q is, whether or not the code you use to write a script _within an app, and utilizing code that is already subject to copyright, _would in and of itself be subject to coyright. I dont see how.

Cheers.


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## Lindon (May 17, 2011)

"I think the answer is this: you can copyright applications, but you can't copyright code. ie, if you write an app that you then copyright, the compiled source code contained within is subject to copyright. But if you simply write some code that doesn't actually do anything - that is not subject to copyright. I am not 100% sure on that, but I think that's how it goes. "

No this is wrong. Sorry. You have copyright over anything (original - not copied from elsewhere) you make no matter its format, code, novel, graphical novel, painting, mud-sculpture...etc etc.

You use someone elses code, or even build an app that looks exactly like and behaves exactly like someone elses app, you are breaking their copyright. - they get to sue, if the mood takes them.


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## RiffWraith (May 18, 2011)

Lindon @ Wed May 18 said:


> "I think the answer is this: you can copyright applications, but you can't copyright code. ie, if you write an app that you then copyright, the compiled source code contained within is subject to copyright. But if you simply write some code that doesn't actually do anything - that is not subject to copyright. I am not 100% sure on that, but I think that's how it goes. "
> 
> No this is wrong. Sorry.



Dont be so quick to say it's wrong.

First off, your comment of "You have copyright over anything (original - not copied from elsewhere)" is not correct...at least not the 'anything' part. Not _everything_ is subject to copyright.

Secondly, bear in mind that you are not creating the code. You are using the code that has already been provided to you by NI. It's their code; you are just arranging it
to your liking. So even if my 'you can't copyright code' comment is incorrect - which, as descibed, I dont think it is - you are still not writing your own code from scratch when you write a Kontakt script.

Cheers.


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## Lindon (May 18, 2011)

Look, this is getting pointless. From where I am standing, with 25 years of experience with copyright and intellectual property, you've got some "strange" ideas about copyright. Please go speak to a copyright lawyer. This is off topic, its no longer about scripting, if it ever was. 

Good luck to you.


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## RiffWraith (May 18, 2011)

Having a bad day, are we? Sheesh...try to have a convo around here.....


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## jdawg (May 21, 2011)

I agree to the above, very much the way to go about life  makes perfect sense


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## kotori (May 23, 2011)

If you write an article using a commercial word processor, can you still hold the copyright of the article? If you publish it in a newspaper run as a commercial enterprise by someone other than yourself, can you still hold the copyright even though you don't own nor control the distribution medium. Of course you can! A Kontakt script is no different.

The assumption that copyright would cover only compiled code I found extremely odd. It's like saying that the text of an author is not protected, but if she produces a PDF file from the text, then that would be protected (i.e. someone else could publish the same text on the web without permission as long as they are using another format). If anything it should be the source text that is protected, but in this case both source code and compiled code are of course protected. That makes sense since it's just a translation of the source code. If an English novel is translated into French the protection doesn't seize to exist just because it's translated.

However, copyright does not cover ideas (well, that's true in theory at least) - only a particular expression. So normally there is a great deal of freedom when it comes to being inspired by and building upon other people's ideas - as long as your expression of the ideas is independent.

/Nils


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## germancomponist (May 23, 2011)

A good example is this: 

You write a software for windows PC`s what needs Windows 7 to be installed on the computers.

Can you copyright your software? Yes, you can.


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## Dynamitec (May 23, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Wed May 18 said:


> Lindon @ Wed May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > "I think the answer is this: you can copyright applications, but you can't copyright code. ie, if you write an app that you then copyright, the compiled source code contained within is subject to copyright. But if you simply write some code that doesn't actually do anything - that is not subject to copyright. I am not 100% sure on that, but I think that's how it goes. "
> ...



Well, that's really a very odd point of view. You could exactly say the same with the samples used in a library! Let me rephrase your comment:

"Secondly, bear in mind that you are not creating the audio ouputed in Kontakt. You are using the audio engine that has already been provided to you by NI. It's their code; you are just arranging the samples to your liking. So even if my 'you can't copyright samples' comment is incorrect - which, as described, I dont think it is - you are still not creating your own audio ouput from scratch when you use samples in Kontakt."

So, in your words, samples can't be copyrighted.

Now one step further:

"Secondly, bear in mind that you are not creating the audio ouput in Cubase. You are using the audio engine that has already been provided to you by Steinberg. It's their code; you are just arranging the notes to your liking. So even if my 'you can't copyright music' comment is incorrect - which, as described, I dont think it is - you are still not creating your own audio ouput from scratch when you are playing back notes in Cubase."

So, in your words, music can't be copyrighted.


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## Dynamitec (May 23, 2011)

blakerobinson @ Thu May 19 said:


> Copyright is too much of a grey area because of country jurisdictions, arguments as to whether Kontakt scripts are 'Computer programs', different requirements of proof, etc.



I can't see any grey area here. Scripts are intellectual property. Just like any other text you write. You won't have to prove that it's a computer program. You have to prove that someone has copy and pasted parts of your intellectual property into his work without permission. 

The latter is the problematic part. In case of very simple scripts this might be impossible - and of course not worth the trouble. But in other cases it might very well be possible to proof the property theft!


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## RiffWraith (Jun 1, 2011)

Dynamitec @ Tue May 24 said:


> Well, that's really a very odd point of view. You could exactly say the same with the samples used in a library! Let me rephrase your comment:
> 
> "Secondly, bear in mind that you are not creating the audio ouputed in Kontakt. You are using the audio engine that has already been provided to you by NI. It's their code; you are just arranging the samples to your liking. So even if my 'you can't copyright samples' comment is incorrect - which, as described, I dont think it is - you are still not creating your own audio ouput from scratch when you use samples in Kontakt."
> 
> ...



Sorry, but those are some pretty bad examples. My words do not say music can't be copyrighted - I never even came close to saying that. I ask respectfully, that you do not make claims that I said something, which I did not.

Using the audio engine in Cubase to create music is not the same thing as using the NI source code to create a script. In your post, you are likening the creation of music to the creation of a Kontakt script. In a way, they are similiar, but not the same. You are trying to use the fact that a person makes use of "code" to do both as the basis of your argument. No. You are not using the code in the same way, nor are you winding up with the same result.

Bottom line is this: original music is subject to copyright. I think we all know that. A Kontakt script would have to fall under one of the categories that are subject to copyright. Such as, but not limited to, literary works, artistic works, and intellectual works. I chellenge anyone to come up with a plausible argument of how a K script would fall under any of the categories that are subject to copyright. Sure, I could be wrong, but I just don't see it.

Cheers.


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## Dynamitec (Jun 1, 2011)

Come on, you are kidding aren't you? This sounds like you are defending your original post for the sake of defending.

I challenge you to come up with a plausible argument of how a K script COULD NOT fall under any of the categories that are subject to copyright. 

You say that one is using NI's code to create a script by rearranging NI's code, which is a very odd point of view. (That's what I tried to explain with my examples which were intentional over the top to make my point). If that would be the case, no application written in anything other than machine code could be copyrighted.

There are many other scripting languages. With your definition "a script can't be copyrighted", big website projects written in PHP (which is a scripting language), containing elements done with JavaScript (which is a scripting langauge) or with Flash ActionScript or Flex (which are both scripting langauges that even need a special player (Flash) to be exectued) could not be copyrighted either.
Oh and by the way, take a look at the bottom of this forum: "Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2011 phpBB Group". phpBB is a php *script*. 

PS:


> My words do not say music can't be copyrighted - I never even came close to saying that. I ask respectfully, that you do not make claims that I said something, which I did not.


Well, the way you think about the hard work some guys put into the development of libraries (including me), suggesting that scripts of commerical libraries for example my simply be reused by others because they can't be copyrighted, *to me* doesn't make a big difference to saying "Music should be freely available, piracy isn't a bad thing". Even if scripts would not be copyrightable, your moral point of view would be very odd. Have you really thought about the implications you've made with your posts?

Question: if a KSP script does nothing more than playing back a song I composed using only play_note and wait(), can this script be copyrighted? Well, you do nothing more than rearraning NI's code in your words. So, your answer must be NO. 
But in that case, well my music inside the script isn't protected either. So my examples aren't that far over the top as you might think.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 2, 2011)

Oy jeez.

_I challenge you to come up with a plausible argument of how a K script COULD NOT fall under any of the categories that are subject to copyright. _

I already did.

_You say that one is using NI's code to create a script by rearranging NI's code, which is a very odd point of view. (That's what I tried to explain with my examples which were intentional over the top to make my point). If that would be the case, no application written in anything other than machine code could be copyrighted._ 

What? Not the same thing. C'mon - you seem smarter than that.

_There are many other scripting languages. With your definition "a script can't be copyrighted", big website projects written in PHP (which is a scripting language), containing elements done with JavaScript (which is a scripting langauge) or with Flash ActionScript or Flex (which are both scripting langauges that even need a special player (Flash) to be exectued) could not be copyrighted either. _

See previous answer.

_Well, the way you think about the hard work some guys put into the development of libraries (including me), _

Yeah - including me too, bro.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 2, 2011)

blakerobinson @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> When creating Kontakt scripts, you're not '_using Native Instrument's code_', you're referencing predefined instructions - the same way any scripting/programming/language works (and same way how when writing a novel, you reference the native language and grammar you're writing in). Native Instruments didn't invent all the keywords/operators/syntax - it borrows from Pascal.



Hmmmm - you may have a point there. 

Look, I really don't have any desire to argue here; I was merely trying to put forth my point of view. As I said, I may be incorrect, but still - I just don't see KSP scripts falling under copyright.

Cheers.


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## Lindon (Jun 2, 2011)

This is so easy to resolve I think....

Check this out:


```
{  AwComeOn - a script to write text to the screen every time a user pressesa  note... 

(c) 2011 ChannelRobot   <<<<------------PAY ATTENTION HERE!

History:

June 2011 - Create  LP
}

on init
    declare ui_label $the_text(5,5)
    declare $counter
end on


on note
    inc($counter)
    if $counter > 5
        $counter := 0
    end if
    
    select $counter
        case 0
            set_text ($the_text,"One more thing...this is copyrighted code.")
        case 1
            set_text ($the_text,"I have a dream (about copyright)")
        case 2
            set_text ($the_text,"Happy birthday, Mr. President (of copyright)")
        case 3
            set_text ($the_text,"Genius' ship (copyrighted stuff)...")
        case 4
            set_text ($the_text,"bd bd bd Thats all (copyrighted) folks..")
        case 5
            set_text ($the_text,"Frankly Scarlett, this looks copyrighted to me..")
    end select
end on
```

OK... so I've posted some code here, and as a consequence of it appearing in text on this forum and being attributed to me it is copyrighted. I've even put a copyright note in the text itself...(But note this is NOT required)

OK off you go and cut-and-paste this into Kontakt and run it...

Now its a set of instructions running inside the Kontakt engine, so according to RiffWraith its lost its copyright somehow...How did that happen? A piece of text I wrote can't LOOSE some copyright it already had because of the way you use it...can it? (hint:NO, flat out NO.).

OK next step, its such a cool piece of code (and idea) why not change the text being set in the case statements? Just change one, it'd be too much effort to change them all...OK that's even cooler...now go "compile" that and sell it as a KSP plug-in. 

Now watch me (ChannelRobot) sue you for *breach of copyright*....

A judge or some similar system(depends on where I sue you, which will be my choice by the way) will decide if I win or lose (maybe based on the amount you changed the text above - often called the fair use defence).

BUT

I will still have copyright over the text/code above win OR lose.

The code you write has copyright no matter how or where someone else chooses to use it...there's even legal rulings for text used as code as Blake points out...

If you disagree, go talk to a copyright lawyer, and let us all get back to writing and talking about KSP scripts....


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## Big Bob (Jun 3, 2011)

BTW Lindon,

Is your pix (avatar?) a shot of you being an 'amateur astronaut' or was that back in your 'pro' days :lol:


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## bryla (Jun 3, 2011)

It's not a grey are no.... Lindon is right about it.

The only thing that can be a problem internationally, is for how long the property is protected after the authors death!! We are speaking about 50 years or up to 75.... this shouldn't really be something to worry about.


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## Mark Belbin (Jun 5, 2011)

Riffwraith

I think you're suffering from a slight problem of definition. In your first post, you asserted that "You can't copyright code", but then went on (if I understood correctly) to distinguish between "code"(Not copyrightable) and "script" (Copyrightable). I think what you've done there refer to the _language_ as "code", which is potentially misleading.

Like most anyone who programs, when I refer to the "code" I write in KSP, I'm referring to my original work (e.g. "I generated 400 lines of code today"). When I refer to KSP, I am referring to a _language_ devised and implemented by NI's programmers of which I have no ownership. But the fact that I have no IPR to the _language_ (KSP) does not mean that the work I do using that language is unoriginal and/or uncopyrightable; The fact that NI came up with KSP does not mean that the _code_ I write with it is floating around in space before I come up with it and free to the world. It certainly doesn't mean that NI has any ownership of my work done with said language simply because they invented it, though I'm unsure if you would be implying that...

So I think you're saying that a KSP rpogrammer does not own the_ language_ (what you call the code), but does own the _code_ (What you call the script). It appears to me that this simple difference in nomenclature is what's causing all the debate.

Regards,
Mark


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## Lindon (Jun 5, 2011)

Bob,
Woah, professional astronaut! wild, sorry no. 

It is a good metaphor, now I think of it, for how I mainly flop about not knowing which way is up though...

Amateurs are best I think, they do all the interesting stuff no?


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## Big Bob (Jun 6, 2011)

As one who once made his living as an amateur, I can definitely say that I don't disagree :lol: 

In fact, I think that being a professional amateur is truly the way to go :? 

Rejoice,

Bob


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