# How does one score a scene where no music is actually needed?



## Adam Lukas (Jan 7, 2016)

Hello guys.
I'm in a somewhat strange situation. I'd like to participate in a renowned competition where I have to do a rescore of a 4-minute scene.

I once had the pleasure to be part of the Hollywood Music Workshop with Conrad Pope - he back then stated:
"Don't score the obvious".
He also encouraged us participants to always try to ADD another level of depth with our music and do not just copy what's already in the video with audio.

So getting the most out of the scene is key, obviously.

Okay, back to scene from the competition:
In my opinion, no music is needed here. It works absolutely fine without any!
I got curious yesterday and watched the whole movie to see how the original composer handled this particular scene - and guess what? There wasn't any music or sounddesign either.

So do you have any ideas or tips for scoring such a fragile scene which actually doesn't need your support as a composer? Anything useful? 
I think that very often composers are asked to compose music for a scene which actually might not need any to work. So this could be an interesting topic to talk about.

Of course, I could just drop out of the competition and say fuck that shit, but I don't want that either.


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## ryanstrong (Jan 7, 2016)

I remember an interview with Trent Reznor where he said he sampled the air conditioning unit that was there on set in scene and just played with that texture so the music didn't stick out as much. Just a thought.


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## EC2 (Jan 7, 2016)

I´d watch Hitchock´s "Birds" for inspiration. Bernard Herrmann managed to "score" the entire film without a single note of music being played.


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## ryanstrong (Jan 7, 2016)

Maybe that's it... submit a silent 3 min track (or however long the scene is).


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## chillbot (Jan 7, 2016)

ryanstrong said:


> Maybe that's it... submit a silent 3 min track (or however long the scene is).



That's what I was going to say! It's a trap! A trick question! Don't fall for it!


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## KEnK (Jan 7, 2016)

EC2 said:


> I´d watch Hitchock´s "Birds" for inspiration. Bernard Herrmann managed to "score" the entire film without a single note of music being played.


My apologies for being ot, but-
I always thought that score was by Oscar Sala on the Trautonium.
I took a look at the IMBD page and found this list.
Interesting. I wonder who did what.

*Sound Department *
 Remi Gassmann  ... electronic sound production and composition
 Bernard Herrmann  ... sound consultant
 William Russell  ... sound recordist
 Oskar Sala  ... electronic sound production and composition
 Waldon O. Watson  ... sound recordist
 Bernard Herrmann  ... sound designer (uncredited)
 James V. Swartz  ... sound (uncredited)


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## Adam Lukas (Jan 7, 2016)

hahaha I just found out that the scene's duration is exactly 4:33
Maybe I'm just going to John Cage that scene




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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 7, 2016)

in a situation like this i'd usually leave it alone. if no music is needed, then no music is needed. however for the reason you're scoring the scene i'd do it with ambience. maybe some really really delay and reverb guitars. maybe just some really ambient synths. maybe even just air flowing in the background to add texture. however i'm inclined to say that maybe they're looking to see how sensible you are, and a sensible composer would no if there's no music needed, no music is needed!


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## EC2 (Jan 9, 2016)

KEnK said:


> My apologies for being ot, but-
> I always thought that score was by Oscar Sala on the Trautonium.



And I always thought that Sala performed under the auspices of Herrmann´s overall guidance.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 9, 2016)

EC2 said:


> And I always thought that Sala performed under the auspices of Herrmann´s overall guidance.



Herrmann was made sound consultant on The Birds. 

A complete and utter waste of talent.


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## Vin (Jan 9, 2016)

D-Day invasion at Omaha Beach scene in _Saving Private Ryan _(scored by John Williams) runs 24 minutes without any music.


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## KEnK (Jan 9, 2016)

@ EC2 and Baron-
Continuing w/ the ot (though it relates somewhat)
I'm a huge Herrmann fan but I also love Oscar Sala.
Can't imagine the Birds being any different, it seems perfect to me.
But we know that Hitch wanted no music during the Psycho Shower scene-
and Herrmann came up w/ that now most famous bit of "underscore".
Still, if it had no music, I'm sure we couldn't imagine any being right.
Possibly Hitch needed to get the no music thing out of his system-
but if Herrmann wrote the Birds score it may have been incredible.


If either of you know anything about the relationship or workings
of Herrmann, Sala and Gassman, (who did what, for example)
I'd love to hear something about it.

k


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## reddognoyz (Jan 9, 2016)

I have a client that requires the music to run throughout every single episode without ending.....ever....

11 minute episodes that have a cue sheet that always adds up to at least 10:50 seconds. 

there are scenes that don't need any music, don't want any music, and suffer because I have to put some in there. 

I've learned to keep a low "purr" of energy under these scenes, a very vague and soft beat like a bass marimba/ pitz cello bass playing a simple ostinato with soft mallets and a pad and the slightest hint of melody, always with an enthusiastic upbeat, "isn't this neato!" kind of feel, but it may be the death of me yet : )

Hint of the day: when you are scoring dialog forward scenes, do NOT turn the talking off until you are ready to clean up and mix, you're much more likely to come up with an instrumentation that doesn't fight the talking.


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## dgburns (Jan 9, 2016)

So I've been pondering this question for a bit (lucky me)

"how does one score a scene where no music is needed?"

...and the first thing that pops into my head is that you are asking a leading question.That is to say,you already have a point of view and are really looking for justification of being right.I think you need to be honest about that straight up.

Of course I haven't seen the scene,so maybe I'd agree with you ,or maybe not.And,ultimately the psychology of scoring music in any way relies on the story and POV of the director.(what kind of story and energy level is this needing)

If this is a blockbuster type film,then the sweep is usually large enough that there is a need for an important tone and support required pretty much throughout any scenes with large movement or action.Interpersonal dramas can sustain lots more music "black" if the actors are moving the scene wihout need of support.Ie the standard inside 180 degrees two shot that is so common.
Going from no music to music(of any kind) always needs to be justified by Something.It could be just about anything,but usually where emotions start to rise is a good clue that support is needed.
Any kind of movement or action(a little travelling music) is justifiable.One thing to keep in mind is that adding music to any scene is likely going to increase the sense that the scene is progressing faster,even if the music is lingering and lethargic(legato).With no music,the scene will progress according to reality,which depending on the speed of the edits will dictate the energy being suggested by the video editor.Being clued into the vibe of the video editor is also as important as anything else,as they have wrestled with nearly the same issues you will come up against.
The wonderfull thing about all this is that it is constantly evolving as social values evolve,and story telling evolves.I guess there is no right or wrong,but you tend to get better at justifying your entry and exit points the more you score.And the neat thing about music is that you can take any old scene and really push one agenda or another if the scene is itself not cut so clearly one way.That is to say,you can push a plot agenda by simply restating a motif that conveys a clear message to the viewer,where none existed simply with picture and dialog alone.
I always ask myself two questions when I first see a scene.What is it about?No really,sit and think about it,what is it really about.That usually steers me to the logical importance inside the story arc.And 2nd,who has the POWER.By that I mean,who is carrying the scene.That's important because the person carrying the scene will be the one most likely you should underline as it makes sense to the viewer,even if it is subconscious.Naturally,the type of film/show will have music confines or a basic tone that you need to use to shape the resulting music,but I think you can really push the agenda and help clarify the story if you take the right perspective.
And none of this needs to be applied with excessive melody if not warranted.The last thing you want to do is be a constant focus pull.The resulting score should have the feel that it is either emanating from the actors,or situation.And nothing is more gauche then a comedy where the music tells you what is funny and when to laugh.Never explain a joke.But do re inforce the emotional consequence of it if there is one.(my personal bias on that last point,feel free to disagree)


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## mverta (Jan 9, 2016)

Subtly.


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## dgburns (Jan 10, 2016)

mverta said:


> Subtly.



aw come on man.can't help but think that's a jab(and nicely done I might add), I think most highly of you Mike.

-edited some stuff out-

I was being sincere in trying to create discussion.

anyway peace brosefs


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## NoamL (Jan 10, 2016)

Music in/out points are so key, like dgburns said. 

Look at your scene and think about when something gets 'kicked up a notch.' It could be action, conflict, emotion, realization. And orient yourself to the larger story. Why does this scene matter in the movie?


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## afterlight82 (Jan 10, 2016)

Be a music editor for a day on it. Pull any pieces of music from anywhere. Put them to picture. See what they do. Think out of the box. Find subtext. Is it really a happy-go-lucky scene where nothing bad or consequential to the story is happening, where there is no dramatic tension or nothing going on under the surface? I doubt it. If there's no subtext, add it and see what it does. Subtext/context. Ask what the scene has earned musically. Sentimentality (in the true sense of the word) is one kind of un-earned emotion...and by the same logic, un-earned music tips a scene out of control. Leave the music late when you do find your in. Wait on it. Find the turning point, but don't start music there, start it a beat after. Where do you find yourself reacting to what happens? Recreate the first time you saw the scene in your mind. Add, don't simply emulate. Bring something to the party.


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## afterlight82 (Jan 10, 2016)

PS I think competitions are for racehorses, but that's just me.


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## autopilot (Jan 10, 2016)




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## dgburns (Jan 10, 2016)

afterlight82 said:


> Be a music editor for a day on it. Pull any pieces of music from anywhere. Put them to picture. See what they do. Think out of the box. Find subtext. Is it really a happy-go-lucky scene where nothing bad or consequential to the story is happening, where there is no dramatic tension or nothing going on under the surface? I doubt it. If there's no subtext, add it and see what it does. Subtext/context. Ask what the scene has earned musically. Sentimentality (in the true sense of the word) is one kind of un-earned emotion...and by the same logic, un-earned music tips a scene out of control. Leave the music late when you do find your in. Wait on it. Find the turning point, but don't start music there, start it a beat after. Where do you find yourself reacting to what happens? Recreate the first time you saw the scene in your mind. Add, don't simply emulate. Bring something to the party.



Most excellent ideas.Breath of fresh air to read.


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## mverta (Jan 13, 2016)

dgburns said:


> aw come on man.can't help but think that's a jab(and nicely done I might add), I think most highly of you Mike.
> 
> -edited some stuff out-
> 
> ...



Ha, not a jab at all, I was just shortcutting to the end of the discussion. No matter how you get there, our job is to do what the director wants. Director wants music where there's no need for it? Subtle until told otherwise. I'm a let's-get-to-it/bottom-line kinda guy.

_Mike


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## reddognoyz (Jan 13, 2016)

autopilot said:


>


THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!


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## dgburns (Jan 13, 2016)

mverta said:


> Ha, not a jab at all, I was just shortcutting to the end of the discussion. No matter how you get there, our job is to do what the director wants. Director wants music where there's no need for it? Subtle until told otherwise. I'm a let's-get-to-it/bottom-line kinda guy.
> 
> _Mike



Good points 

imo-(some thoughts upon reflection)

In the early stages of a gig,it's important to build trust,so obviously you want to be a good listener(to your director).But I've witnessed that as that trust is built up,I've been expected to take more control and initiate more during spotting and in follow through.
The power base starts to shift when you hear words like "I dunno,you can come up with something for here,we liked what you did on that last bit".
They are great words to hear,and sometimes you just can't get there on a gig.But the point is that the relationship to your director will dictate how much you can author.Difficult to predict,but once you have that basic trust,in my experience,you have much more freedom to create and justify what you are doing.I also think the more budget the show has,the more people are looking to you for solutions.
I say all this because in the example above(thread title),the same dynamic holds true.I think it's more about initiating something and successfully justifying it by making it really "work" then anything else.Comments such as "I liked the way that scene played out" is about all the feedback you are likely to get one way or another, imho.
In an etude like above,I would just go for it,however it made me happy to score.One needs to find a direction musically and just do it.


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