# Anyone else having problems with SINE player???



## ManukaLuka (Aug 2, 2020)

Hey everyone. 

I recently purchased the new Tableau Solo Strings from Orchestral tools and I am really excited to use it. But, either the library or the SINE player is causing my DAW to crash (Abelton), this happens whenever I load the library or change articulations. I've also tried it in Logic and had the same issue. On occasion I will get this error message: 

Synchronization timed out during asynchronous rendering. Not enough in audio queue. 

I have reported the problem to Orchestral tool's and Abelton. Does anyone know what to do to fix this?

Thanks.


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## Supremo (Aug 2, 2020)

This is a known issue with Sine. I encounter the same problem in Reaper in a busy project.
The only workaround in Reaper is to load a project in an “offline mode” and turn on the Sine plug-in afterwards.
Or to have Sine instances sit in VE Pro only, if you use VE Pro.


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 2, 2020)

I have possibly similar problem in Reaper, where if I save a project with the SINE interface being open, the project freezes on the next load trying to load the articulations.


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## Cheezus (Aug 2, 2020)

SINE Player does a real number on my CPU usage in FL Studio and I have experienced crashes. It just doesn’t seem stable at all. It’s a shame because I think the interface is pretty good, but i avoid using or buying OT products because of it.


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## JohnG (Aug 2, 2020)

On a PC satellite computer, inside VE Pro 6 it's working perfectly. Main DAW is a separate computer (Mac, Digital Performer) but I doubt the DAW has any impact.


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## mybadmemory (Aug 2, 2020)

I have issues with all new players. Sine is very slow and unresponsive and refuses to load in logic. Spitfires player is similarly slow and unresponsive and often crashes logic for me.

Only Kontakt seem responsive and reliable which is a shame since it’s, in contrast to the others, quite outdated in terms of ux and ui. I’d love it if the newer players were more reliable.


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## artomatic (Aug 2, 2020)

My issue is SINE (v.1.0.2) won't download the update to v1.0.3.509. I contacted OT support, tried their suggestions but never resolved....
Oh, and stuck notes are so annoying!


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 2, 2020)

I dont think sine updates in the player, you download from the website iirc.


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## artomatic (Aug 2, 2020)

Hmm. I sent them a couple of screenshots within the player showing the progress bars being stuck at the get go. They never mentioned to download from their website so I'll check that out!


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 2, 2020)

artomatic said:


> Hmm. I sent them a couple of screenshots within the player showing the progress bars being stuck at the get go. They never mentioned to download from their website so I'll check that out!


maybe I'm wrong, but I thought only instruments were downloaded in the player


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## Sunny Schramm (Aug 2, 2020)

no problems with cubase 10.5.20


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## ManukaLuka (Aug 2, 2020)

Supremo said:


> The only workaround in Reaper is to load a project in an “offline mode” and turn on the Sine plug-in afterwards.



Oh really? That's super disappointing there is nothing else I can do. I honestly feel as if I have wasted my money now, seeing as their player is basically unusable.


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## LinearZero (Aug 8, 2020)

I haven't tried opening Sine player in any DAW's yet as this is my first download/use, but I'm bracing myself because even just operating Sine player on it's own is slow. Admittedly I'm downloading something at the moment from it so that could be part of the issue.

On a side note, Sine player is relatively new right? Compared to Kontakt? I mean it can only improve if the DEV's get on top of things right?


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 8, 2020)

I, currently, have to reinstall SINE every couple days, because it loses some C++ library dependency and freezes Reaper on a project load.

EDIT: Reaper 6.13, Windows 10 (1903), i7-7820X, 64GB, SATA SSD.


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## LinearZero (Aug 8, 2020)

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> I, currently, have to reinstall SINE every couple days, because it loses some C++ library dependency and freezes Reaper on a project load.


I know you can pay a fee of some sort to allow for Kontakt versions of OT vst's to allow you to play on sine player, is it possible to do the reverse? Download something meant for sine player but load it on Kontakt if it is a product supported by Kontakt? Or are you essentially stuck with Sine player?


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## Wunderhorn (Aug 8, 2020)

SINE is completely unuseable in my experience. My interest in OT libraries (which I find excellent) that are not running with Kontakt is on hold.
I think it is a prime example of yet another proprietary system that offers no benefit for the user and instead it causes nothing but unnecessary headaches. Maybe it would have been a bit different if they had kept it in development for another year or two. Maybe. But these things are a huge undertaking from a development point of view, and a big investment. Maybe a too big of a chunk than what they could swallow.


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 8, 2020)

I'm using SINE with a newer library (Tableau Solo Strings) that I don't believe have been available for Kontakt. I doubt OT would be commercially interested in porting their newer products to Kontakt (although Arkhis).

At this moment I'm reevaluating my plans of purchasing SINE versions of Metropolis Arks.


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 8, 2020)

One thing I like about SINE is the ability to switch articulations with PROGRAM CHANGE. For me currently it's the most convenient way of programing articulations in the MIDI edit window.


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## KEM (Aug 8, 2020)

Sucks to hear that people are having bad experiences with SINE, ever since the first update it’s been working really well for me, no issues at all. I have one project where a trumpet has a hanging note the first time I load it up but other than that, very smooth for me.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 8, 2020)

I sorta gave up on it to be honest, at least until it matures a bit. I couldn't use it without constant crashes.


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## jbuhler (Aug 8, 2020)

I quite like Sine and that’s even after having had a nasty battle with Amber. I find the instruments easier to use than the Capsule versions and they use considerably less RAM. I can hardly wait for Berlin Strings to be ported.


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## Babaghanoush (Aug 8, 2020)

In Cubase, I save every time before I attempt to close Sine. At various time after having it open, Cubase will lock up on me. I can't reproduce this with any consistency so I have no idea what I would even report... "Hey, your player sometimes crashes when I use it. Thanks!"

To be fair, Spitfire's player will also randomly bring me down so I'm not 100% sure where the problem is but these are the only two plugins/players that make me think twice before using them.


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## Eptesicus (Aug 9, 2020)

Yes, still dodgy/fragile in places. It has got better as the updates come out, but its still no where it should be as a professional tool. It feels like it needed more development before being released to iron out the bugs and stability issues.


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## gpax (Aug 9, 2020)

With my experience in Logic, SINE crashes about thirty percent of the time. I have quit using it entirely, having just purchased two recent releases which left me frustrated.

I’m still sitting on notes and a crash log to send OT, but as I said in another thread, SINE has put a pause on buying from OT. Hence, the impetus to try and pinpoint problematic behaviors and solidify observations has also waned. I’m writing it off mentally as an investment in ongoing development.

With OT, the onus is routinely placed on the user to replicate issues and/or demonstrate that a problem exists. History has shown that I have to phrase support inquiries a certain way, sending just the facts and not the emotions and frustrations as well. With all that in mind, SINE-only has signaled the need to take a break from the relationship.

In an ideal world, developers would offer dual versions while transitioning to proprietary engines that move away from Kontakt. At least until stability is assured. Kind of reminds of the Rosetta approach...


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## NoamL (Aug 9, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> I think it is a prime example of yet another proprietary system that offers no benefit for the user



There is a huge benefit for the user. The ability to buy instruments a la carte which is prevented in Kontakt due to NI's licensing policies. The problem is this stability issue. Heard too many bad reports for me to trust putting it in VEP where it could potentially crash my entire orch template every couple days. I'd really like to try out a JXLB nki or two, but SINE needs to get better first. But if it ever does get to same level of stability as Kontakt, I'd be happy to mix and match them...


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## JohnG (Aug 9, 2020)

Not for a minute questioning that people are frustrated (and sorry to hear it). From scanning the foregoing, it seems that it may be mostly Logic and Reason users having problems, presumably on Macs?

I think it would be helpful to specify one's system before generalising that any player is "unusable" or "too slow" or "won't load" or something. I mean, not everyone is having this problem so maybe there is a solution? I find it surprising if OT hadn't thoroughly tested on Logic before release, so possibly there is a setting or some other adjustment that could help?

On a separate PC Windows 10 inside VE Pro 6, it works perfectly for me. Maybe those having problems can specify and possibly hear suggestions from other users who aren't having the same issues?

Sometimes settings in DAWs, like how far (in milliseconds) the look-ahead is, can make fairly striking performance differences, as many here undoubtedly know.

Buffer settings? Maybe you need bigger? IDK.


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## Cheezus (Aug 9, 2020)

I know in the case of FL Studio I had to check the option "Use fixed size buffers (for buggy plugins)" to get SINE Player to even function at all. I tried to use a single articulation from the Tableau viola today and it eventually resulted in a crash.


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## JohnG (Aug 9, 2020)

Maybe specifying your computer specs or how hard you're pushing your rig would help others? IDK -- not trying to be a pill but it would be great to know.


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## Cheezus (Aug 9, 2020)

Sure. I'm running on an i5 3570 3.4GHz, Windows 10, 16 GB RAM, SSD. It's not an amazing rig, but this is the only plugin that I have such problems with. CPU usage was at about 50-60 when it crashed, I had Ozone, Nimbus and a couple of Neutron EQs active.

Edit: Should also mention I had four automations running, some routed to multiple instruments, one of which was tableau. This was causing a lot of the CPU usage, I was in the process of trying to bounce the automated instruments (one of which was the viola) when it crashed.


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## PeterJCroissant (Aug 9, 2020)

Just my 2c, I use Logic and I find clicks and pops all over the place, I have to re-authorise every time I restart the Mac! And if you open the project and it asks for authorisation it continues to load the project, SINE doesn’t load the instruments, so I have to close and re open the project! What a faff... I’m giving up soon..


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## Greg (Aug 9, 2020)

Not working very well on Logic & Catalina with a 2019 mac pro. Slow, buggy, beach balls, freezes, crashes logic. The plugin and sound are amazing other than the bugs, hope they figure it out


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## Pablocrespo (Aug 9, 2020)

Not working in cubase 10.5 (9900k 64gb). Sessions with Sine in them couldn’t even start. In VEP working fine so far.
As far as I can tell it’s not ready for serious work


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## artomatic (Aug 9, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Not for a minute questioning that people are frustrated (and sorry to hear it). From scanning the foregoing, it seems that it may be mostly Logic and Reason users having problems, presumably on Macs?
> 
> I think it would be helpful to specify one's system before generalising that any player is "unusable" or "too slow" or "won't load" or something. I mean, not everyone is having this problem so maybe there is a solution? I find it surprising if OT hadn't thoroughly tested on Logic before release, so possibly there is a setting or some other adjustment that could help?
> 
> ...





I'm on a Mac, using Pro Tools Ultimate. Since the first iteration of SINE, I've had problems with it. Hanging notes, crashes and not being able to download JXL updates (it would crash every attempt) with the very current version of SiNE, thinking it would be a better version that's more stable.
JXL Brass is an expensive purchase and it's a pity I'm not able to use it.
I wish someone from OT can chime in.


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## JohnG (Aug 9, 2020)

Which OS X are you on? I'm on Sierra (likely to remain there).


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## Bman70 (Aug 9, 2020)

I just opened SINE in Reason 11 Intro and played and recorded some stuff without any problems. (Except the music, which was a huge problem because I can't understand how to use Layers.) I'm using iMac late 2013 recently upgraded to High Sierra, 8GB RAM. Sounds on external SSD. 

p.s. Like @JohnG I thought I'd stay on Sierra forever, but after trying out HS and Mojave on my laptop, they seem perfectly stable with all my old software including Adobe CS6 apps.


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2020)

NoamL said:


> There is a huge benefit for the user. The ability to buy instruments a la carte which is prevented in Kontakt due to NI's licensing policies. The problem is this stability issue. Heard too many bad reports for me to trust putting it in VEP where it could potentially crash my entire orch template every couple days. I'd really like to try out a JXLB nki or two, but SINE needs to get better first. But if it ever does get to same level of stability as Kontakt, I'd be happy to mix and match them...



Merging Mics is another huge benefit. It’s the greatest thing to happen in commercial Sampling for years I reckon.


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## vvaidy (Aug 9, 2020)

While I understand the potential benefits of Sine, it's been a huge disappointment for me. FWIW, I've had continual problems since the day I bought it - crashes, hangs, pops, clicks - to the point where I've stopped using it entirely. It doesn't help that their support has been slow, unhelpful and generally underwhelming, with not much more than the most superficial of canned suggestions. (e.g. "are you using an SSD drive?" and "Kontakt cannot read Sine collections :(") 

I deeply regret having invested a bunch of $$$ in Ark 1, and it appears they offer no way for me to upgrade/downgrade/sidegrade to Kontakt, which seems unfriendly at best.


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## NoamL (Aug 9, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Merging Mics is another huge benefit. It’s the greatest thing to happen in commercial Sampling for years I reckon.



yeah! Both features are perfect for OT... a la carte so that you can sample their huge libraries without paying near $1000 for an orchestral section... mic merge so that you can dial in your mix and alleviate the huge RAM hit of these libraries... it's gonna be great if they improve SINE.


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## artomatic (Aug 9, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Which OS X are you on? I'm on Sierra (likely to remain there).



Catalina 10.15.6. Yeah, if it's working great for you I'd do the same thing.


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2020)

NoamL said:


> yeah! Both features are perfect for OT... a la carte so that you can sample their huge libraries without paying near $1000 for an orchestral section... mic merge so that you can dial in your mix and alleviate the huge RAM hit of these libraries... it's gonna be great if they improve SINE.



Definitely. I have been having problems with the stability of SINE and updating JXLB so I hope it gets sorted soon. I'm not sure why I couldn't update JXLB but eventually it just did it without issue so I can't even say what I did or what was causing it. 

I've had Cubase completely freeze when duplicating an Instrument track (in Cubase) that has has a FH x 12 Patch loaded and as soon as I have duplicated the track Cubase froze. I tried it again once I restarted Cubase and it worked fine so I'm not sure how to report that.

Anyway, I'm so excited about SINE but it's not been plain sailing yet. If I didn't say that then it wouldn't be honest.


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2020)

NoamL said:


> yeah! Both features are perfect for OT... a la carte so that you can sample their huge libraries without paying near $1000 for an orchestral section...



$1000 just for the main. Probably add another $700 for the expansions!


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## Fitz (Aug 9, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Merging Mics is another huge benefit. It’s the greatest thing to happen in commercial Sampling for years I reckon.


Can you merge mics and still have separate outs in cubase for surrounds? How does the merge benefit the system?


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2020)

Fitz said:


> Can you merge mics and still have separate outs in cubase for surrounds? How does the merge benefit the system?




As far as I know the merge mic is a stereo mic. If you have a surround setup then you will have discrete audio being sent to your speakers so you will need the mics as they are and assign outputs accordingly without using the merge mic feature. The merge mic option is to help save resources on smaller systems. I used it yesterday to merge the Tree and the Room mics of the JXLB library and it reduced 1.6gb to just over 600mb. Currently I’m borrowing a 2013 quadcore iMac that has 24gb of RAM. Needless to say, it’s easy to rinse that so last night the merge mic feature really frees up resources for me.

If I had a Surround or Atmos setup, the first thing I would experiment with is merging mic positions and creating different mic mixes and see what happens when they get assigned to their discrete outputs at the same time. Might sound weird or terrible... on the other hand it could sound amazing. Especially for sound design. Would be fun to just be creative with it.

But yeah, I don’t think the merge mic feature is anything other than to save resources. It would be amazing if there was some way of merging multiple mic positions into different output configurations and saving RAM whilst doing that but I have no idea if that’s possible!


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 9, 2020)

I edited my post, adding my setup specifications.


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## jcrosby (Aug 9, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I've had Cubase completely freeze when duplicating an Instrument track (in Cubase) that has has a FH x 12 Patch loaded and as soon as I have duplicated the track Cubase froze. I tried it again once I restarted Cubase and it worked fine so I'm not sure how to report that.


Logic does the same here! 

I've reported it as: _Sine crashes Logic when duplicating an existing instance of Sine._ 
Definitely should reach out.... Thought it was only a Logic issue but apparently not.


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## LinearZero (Aug 9, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> SINE Player does a real number on my CPU usage in FL Studio and I have experienced crashes. It just doesn’t seem stable at all. It’s a shame because I think the interface is pretty good, but i avoid using or buying OT products because of it.



A little off topic but how do you use Sine player in FL-Studio? I located the plugin path and got fl studio to scan for it but nothing comes up? Is there are thread on this?


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Logic does the same here!
> 
> I've reported it as: _Sine crashes Logic when duplicating an existing instance of Sine._
> Definitely should reach out.... Thought it was only a Logic issue but apparently not.



Ok sounds like there’s something in duplicating tracks!


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## LinearZero (Aug 9, 2020)

LinearZero said:


> A little off topic but how do you use Sine player in FL-Studio? I located the plugin path and got fl studio to scan for it but nothing comes up? Is there are thread on this?



NVM I worked it out. And yeh can also confirm CPU load goes nuts in FL-studio. Even with just 1 track. I don't know if there is a setting that can fix that. 

Works great in Cubase 10.5 though. I duplicated 20 tracks and no problems at all.


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2020)

LinearZero said:


> Works great in Cubase 10.5 though. I duplicated 20 tracks and no problems at all.



What was happening when you duplicated the tracks? Was audio playing in your project whilst duplicating the tracks or had you pressed stop and then duplicated the tracks?


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## gpax (Aug 9, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I think it would be helpful to specify one's system before generalising that any player is "unusable" or "too slow" or "won't load" or something. I mean, not everyone is having this problem so maybe there is a solution? I find it surprising if OT hadn't thoroughly tested on Logic before release, so possibly there is a setting or some other adjustment that could help?


I’m on a 2019 5k iMac i9, eight-core 3.6 GHz, with 64 Gb Ram. Running Catalina. I have finely tuned my configuration to easily handle a plethora of Kontakt instruments, VSL, EW Play, and even SA Player. Weeks/months without any problems; then Sine was freezing Logic every other day. 

One pattern I started to detect is that having two instances of Sine in Logic seems to feed on instability more regularly than what was fairly sustainable just having one instance loaded. It seems all my freezes/crashes are relative to trying to make selections/changes/adjustments in the open player itself, not so much how it then performs if/when I get a fingers-crossed instance afloat. 

I played around with settings in Sine, but to your point about OT thoroughly testing Logic, I could show you old emails of pre-Capsule and Capsule inquiries where Mac/Logic was not a priority for OT. Perhaps that has all changed, but my sense is that the disparate issues being reported are just that: disparate and not consistently reproducible where different users are concerned. I’ve seen everything from with a web component error in Sine (had to look it up) to simply dragging over articulations and seeing everything freeze (a few times), to trying to change mics and getting a beachball crash.

This is not a buffer-fix sort of thing I was experiencing, though any and every suggestion is on the table, of course. The experience very much reminds me of the early days (years) of EW PLAY.


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## LinearZero (Aug 9, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> What was happening when you duplicated the tracks? Was audio playing in your project whilst duplicating the tracks or had you pressed stop and then duplicated the tracks?



I did both duplicating while playing and duplicating with the audio stopped. Neither seemed to cause any problems.


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## Eptesicus (Aug 10, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Maybe specifying your computer specs or how hard you're pushing your rig would help others? IDK -- not trying to be a pill but it would be great to know.



Unfortunately, I think its fairly obvious SINE has stability issues across the board and it doesn't really have anything to do with people pushing their rigs hard.

Just look at how many people have reported issues, just in this thread.


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## Eptesicus (Aug 10, 2020)

gpax said:


> With my experience in Logic, SINE crashes about thirty percent of the time. I have quit using it entirely, having just purchased two recent releases which left me frustrated.
> 
> I’m still sitting on notes and a crash log to send OT, but as I said in another thread, SINE has put a pause on buying from OT. Hence, the impetus to try and pinpoint problematic behaviors and solidify observations has also waned. I’m writing it off mentally as an investment in ongoing development.
> 
> ...



I agree with this. I have felt like they want me to spend an inordinate amount of time supplying them with information, videos, screenshot etc etc. 

I have explained in detail the issues, patterns of use to make the issues happen etc. In multiple emails. Beyond that I dont expect to spend hours and hours troubleshooting and documenting everything extensively. I am not one of their testing staff. 

The stability issues seem pretty widespread, yet they keep telling me they have very few reported issues etc and that they don't have any issues their end...


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## jcrosby (Aug 10, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> The stability issues seem pretty widespread, yet they keep telling me they have very few reported issues etc and that they don't have any issues their end...


They've told me the same thing multiple times. For that reason alone I'm skeptical... For lack of sounding too cynical it seems like a scripted response. There are simply too many threads where people report stability issues for this to be some that "few report".... Either way that's an absolute BS explanation. If your product doesn't work fix it or you wind up with unhappy users.


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## Loïc D (Aug 10, 2020)

FWIW, I’m running Logic on a MBP15 late 2013 on Mojave with i7 quad core & 16GB RAM.
I’m using CC to switch articulations and DFD preload buffer set to 35ms to minimize RAM usage. 
I have JXL, Tableau, Layers, Inspire 1 libraries and usually use 1 instance per instrument. All located on an external Corsair BX100 SSD drive supporting UASP.

I am an early adopter since I preordered JXL.

I rarely experience crashes or dropouts. The last versions have been solid and stable.

The things I love in SINE :
- Tweakability : RR selection , enveloppes, legato options, poly switch mode, etc.
- A la carte buying option
- Performance : it uses less RAM & CPU than the Kontakt capsule engine. Once the instruments are loaded, it’s really responsive.
- Mic merge


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## gpax (Aug 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> They've told me the same thing multiple times. For that reason alone I'm skeptical... For lack of sounding too cynical it seems like a scripted response. There are simply too many threads where people report stability issues for this to be some that "few report".... Either way that's an absolute BS explanation. If your product doesn't work fix it or you wind up with unhappy users.


It's a tough pill to swallow, being told you are an outlier when something breaks that is not of your doing. Even the well-intentioned here are feeding into this notion of so-called stability that, quite frankly, is arguably just now seeing itself being tested by a growing number of users. 

I suspect the latest moderately priced libraries have now ushered in many more Sine users, and so here we are...

For the record, my first support email went out to Tobias at OT on June 5. Even then, I'd put it off for a couple of weeks, dreading what I knew might be the tug-of-war response with little or no backing - except to speak for myself. Naturally, when a thread like this shows up, I'm on it. BTW, he was very congenial, so kudos to OT. 

I've been at this for twenty years now. I know what stability (or instability) looks like. The bittersweet vindication comes when what you reported eventually gets fixed, and is even specifically detailed in release notes, but where the only feedback you ever got was: "we can't reproduce it here." But hey, if it gets fixed! 

In the chance OT is taking notes, this is an invaluable thread to collectively gather information about what is not working for some, with all respect to those "happy camper" reports which offer limited insight into what OT itself needs to take a look at.


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## gpax (Aug 11, 2020)

And Sine 1.0.4 was just released, with a nice video from the CEO talking about the development process and specific fixes/improvements.

Eager to see how it is for everyone.


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## jononotbono (Aug 11, 2020)

gpax said:


> And Sine 1.0.4 was just released, with a nice video from the CEO talking about the development process and specific fixes/improvements.
> 
> Eager to see how it is for everyone.



I can’t wait to try it out later this evening. Fingers are well and truly crossed!


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## artomatic (Aug 11, 2020)

Updated SINE. Sad to say, I still cannot download the updates to JXLB library!
Contacted OT support once again...


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 12, 2020)

ver.1.04 Trying to open mixer tab in SINE froze Reaper (Win10).


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## Benjamin Duk (Aug 12, 2020)

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> ver.1.04 Trying to open mixer tab in SINE froze Reaper (Win10).



Just make sure it is version 1.0.4 of the plugin that is being loaded in Reaper. I installed the update yesterday and when I tested the Standalone Version it was 1.0.4, but in Cubase it was still using 1.0.3. So had to install it again and made sure it was the correct version by clicking on the OT icon in the player.


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 12, 2020)

I just checked, and it's indeed 1.0.4. Also, Reaper froze again after ~10 sec. of SINE plugin interface being open. (Maybe it was trying to load something... not sure.)


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## Zanshin (Aug 12, 2020)

dobro said:


> Maybe a little off-topic. I couldn't find any FAQ entry about the fact that I obviously can't use any of my OT KONTAKT libraries in SINE. Instead I have to download every library anew. In my case this is about 1 TB, so I have to buy new SSDs. Seriously?? Is that so?



It will be the same if SF ever ports a library to their player too. Kontakt uses *proprietary *formats.


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## dobro (Aug 12, 2020)

Zanshin said:


> It will be the same if SF ever ports a library to their player too. Kontakt uses *proprietary *formats.


Thank you, didn't realize. It's fine for the harddisc industry.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 12, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I sorta gave up on it to be honest, at least until it matures a bit. I couldn't use it without constant crashes.


FYI since the update, it seems to be running okay


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## jcrosby (Aug 12, 2020)

Sorry to hear people are having issues with the JXL update... I did manage to get it downloaded, hope others do....

*For those that have downloaded the JXL update* - it's not clear to me if I need to re-merge any custom mic mixes. 

Basically is this just a scripting update that won't impact my pre-existing merged mixes? Or will this require me to re-merge all pre-existing ones?


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## jcrosby (Aug 12, 2020)

dobro said:


> Maybe a little off-topic. I couldn't find any FAQ entry about the fact that I obviously can't use any of my OT KONTAKT libraries in SINE. Instead I have to download every library anew. In my case this is about 1 TB, so I have to buy new SSDs. Seriously?? Is that so?



You're overlooking a ton of stuff.

This is not a Kontakt library. How are you supposed to magically get the instruments in the format Sine requires without requiring disk space?

Sine libraries compress to a significantly smaller size than the Kontakt versions out of the box.

Mics can be merged, significantly shrinking the entire library's footprint on disk even more if you need the space.

Mic mixes can be added and removed ad-hoc. Don't use an instrument often? Move it to an external until you need it later.

You can move any mic mix or instrument from the library to an external drive, then move them back again if necessary or any reason. All you need to do is steer Sine to the directory and there it is again. No Native Access acting as a poorly manage middle-man required.

If you have the Kontakt version already then what's problem? Just keep using that until you have another disk?

Is it fun having to download the library again? No. But that's the reality of digital delivery and we all have to put up with the same reality. Don't let it interfere with your creative motivation...



dobro said:


> And another thing: I think it is embarrasing how long it takes Orchestral Trolls to get their libraries SINE-ready. Everything takes forever over there. I used every possible discount still paying thousands and here I sit waiting for over a year for a decent offer on extra articulations.
> 
> Yes, I do have problems galore with SINE and OT. Nowadays it seems like the wrong horse to bet on even taking into account the supremacy of TELDEX Hall over AIR Studios.



I think you're being a quick to judge without considering the magnitude of work involved... It's not like they can just convert an existing kontakt file and spit out a Sine file. Each library has to be re-scripted and quality checked. Each Ark is enormous. The entire Berlin series is monolithic. Easily a few hundred thousand samples if not more between all of them.

Also try to imagine the amount of work involved in porting 160 GB of sample data (Ark 2) and the QC process. This is an insane amount of work. Can you honestly see yourself quality checking MANY tens of thousands of samples, then QC'ing every patch, QC'ing all legato to check for inconsistencies, QC'ing every mic for playback, dropped notes, or other anomalies, etc, etc.

Considering the insane amount of work involved in migrating such huge libraries I personally think OT are moving a bit faster than I expected them to.


----------



## jonathanwright (Aug 13, 2020)

Working well here (Logic 10.5.1).

I love how Sine is so much more efficient in disk space than Kontakt. My Logic template size shrinks quite dramatically every time I move an OT library over to Sine.


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## Teldex (Aug 13, 2020)

The list of 14 Performance & Reliability Improvements for version 1.0.4 appear to be quite specific. They seem to be related only to very particular issues, e.g. “_In rare cases, there could be crackles when moving the modwheel rapidly while playing._” They don’t appear to address the general issues such as those that people have been reporting in this thread.

I will be interested to hear people’s reports on v1.0.4 before I hook up my internet modem and download it.


----------



## iMovieShout (Aug 13, 2020)

I'm afraid to say that SINE is not very stable. I run it on Windows10 (512GB RAM and 8TB SSD), with Nuendo 10 and Cubase 10. Ok so the latest version is more stable and has better features than before, but it still crashes Nuendo and Cubase whenever I try to disable the relevant tracks, or when I close Nuendo / Cubase. I also find the same issue with ProTools. Also trying to download multiple mic positions for different instruments from ARK1 and Ark 2 crashes SINE. Afraid I shall be de-installing SINE and resorting to loading the samples directly in to my DAW and/or VEP7 (Vienna Ensemble Pro).


----------



## MGdepp (Aug 13, 2020)

I will have to add myself to the list of people with less smooth experience of Sine. As much as I like the idea of less ram usage compared to Capsule in Kontakt ... There still isn't automation and detailed midi control added to Sine and in this state I am not gonna use it, anyway. So, I just downloaded the available libraries for testing ...

... and even with the latest version 1.0.4 which they made an extra video about it being about more stability, the first thing I noticed was it wasn't opening in standalone.  According to some users, this is only after installation and can be fixed by a restart. But ... no! It still wouldn't open after restart.

I hope they will make this a smoother experience, soon! Spitfire Player is a total fail in its own right and doesn't even bring some features making it worth switching from Kontakt. So, this is not directed against OT. I just think, all of these developers totally underestimate the challenge of releasing a perfectly smooth plugin.


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## PuerAzaelis (Aug 13, 2020)

1.0.4 still working fine on Reaper. No issues. Pleased.


----------



## gpax (Aug 13, 2020)

I’m still testing the latest 1.0.4 update. Personally, I can’t declare stability within minutes, or even 24 hours, or days. My first impression was a faster response time in Sine... and it has not crashed in twenty minutes.

To several of the points @jcrosby mentioned above, these things take time. A thread like this is a must to report adverse experiences. With all respect to others: please, please refrain from making definitive declarations of stability.

Just look at the list from yesterday’s 1.0.4 update and reconcile that with earlier comments in this thread from the past week. If this is stable for you, consider luck as a potential variable also, if not also how we each use Sine in our configurations as something that will vary greatly.

I know that OT indulging one’s patience is of little consolation for professional and even semi-professional use, but I personally anticipate that both OT Sine and the Spitfire Audio engine will be transitioning for a while. I hate to even suggest it, but East West PLAY, in my experience, has taken years to get to where I don’t fret using it.

For those who’ve been around a while, it’s a mindset, if anything, and these proprietary approaches are also the future of these respective companies - at least which they are gambling (counting) on. The financial investment developing software like this can run in the millions. They need us to report issues - irrespective of projecting hubris or defensiveness to the contrary.

To something I said earlier - whether or not OT seems receptive to support inquiries isn’t necessarily an indicator that it is not getting addressed. But what specific issues there are, especially relative to the DAW or platform you use may not be on the radar (and possibly not a priority in their testing scheme) - so report every little pop, snag, crash or boom, along with as much reproducible info as possible.

For those newish to the craft, it’s hard to think of simply buying a tool as being something that is transitional and not quite studio-ready, but this is precisely what it is - a period of migration from Kontakt dependency.

VSL did this very early on, btw, and they are doing it again with their move to Synchron.

And, there are many choices in the market, unlike 10-15 years ago. Kontakt is here for a while, the bulk of lesser-funded developers all still very dependent on its longevity - and its pros and cons. Yes, it’s the standard, but that’s not an irrefutable indicator of efficiency either, as many of us know. Sorry to wax philosophical. Keep reporting and commenting on those bugs. Otherwise, what’s the point in a forum, lol?


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 13, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> 512GB RAM



*drools*

man I was so cool when x99 came out and I cranked 128gb into my mobo. I felt like a king

Now I feel like a peasant.


----------



## jcrosby (Aug 13, 2020)

gpax said:


> The financial investment developing software like this can run in the millions.


Easily...

Years ago I worked for a small ios music startup and even with a small development team we blew through a million in development costs the 1st year. People who don't do development don't understand just how expensive it is. Developers don't come cheap... And the process has a lot more moving parts than you can imagine if you haven't seen what it looks like world from a view inside...


----------



## Bear Market (Aug 13, 2020)

I'm on Logic 10.5.1 and hadn't actually had much issues with Sine previously. That changed when I updated to the latest version though, the one that supposedly focused on improving stability. Logic crashed immediately... haha I should have let well enough alone...


----------



## John57 (Aug 13, 2020)

I did have issues with the SINE standalone player and restart windows will not bring up the player. I found out the SINE was still active in the task manager. I then end task and was able to bring up the standalone player. Then I had a read only SINE player and cannot download more files within SINE. Using task manger I told SINE to use only four cores from my AMD Ryzen 9 3900x 12 core processor and SINE became much more stable and works so far. Look Like that SINE is not fully compatible with Ryzen 9 processor in my case. Sine was not the only commercial program that I did had a problem. Notion from PreSonus was another program that I had a problem with. Notation will not even load with the AMD Ryzen 9 3900x 12 core processor. PreSonus gave me a hot fix which solve the issue and the latest update of Notion has the hot fix applied. Looks like more beta testing from my part needs to be done to see if I can make SINE stable in my DAW applications.


----------



## MSutherlandComp (Aug 13, 2020)

Very unfortunate. The previous version of SINE was actually running fine for me, but this new update crashes logic every other time I launch. I thought it was supposed to increase stability?


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 15, 2020)

MSutherlandComp said:


> Very unfortunate. The previous version of SINE was actually running fine for me, but this new update crashes logic every other time I launch. I thought it was supposed to increase stability?


I haven't yet had an issue with the updated Sine in Logic while I'm working but I've now had two crashes on close with a report that Sine was the culprit for the crash.


----------



## MSutherlandComp (Aug 15, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> I haven't yet had an issue with the updated Sine in Logic while I'm working but I've now had two crashes on close with a report that Sine was the culprit for the crash.


Yes, somewhat similar for me. It has never caused a crash whilst I’m actually using it. Only on launch or close, very odd.


----------



## Eptesicus (Aug 15, 2020)

MSutherlandComp said:


> Yes, somewhat similar for me. It has never caused a crash whilst I’m actually using it. Only on launch or close, very odd.





jbuhler said:


> I haven't yet had an issue with the updated Sine in Logic while I'm working but I've now had two crashes on close with a report that Sine was the culprit for the crash.



This is when it is at it's most flakey (starting/closing/adding or removing instruments).

Biggest issue i have is it causing Cubase in Windows not to close properly (just crashes). However if i save the project and then clear all articulations in SINE, Cubase closes without a hitch. This 100% works everytime so the issue is 100% SINE.

I had serious issues with it crashing in standalone or in Cubase when unloading articulations initially. Updates have made it more robust, but it still crashes Cubase on closing when any artiuclations are loaded into RAM.

The player clearly still has some sort of gremlin in it which stops things being loaded/unloaded properly.


----------



## artomatic (Aug 15, 2020)

Anyone still having issues with hanging notes with the latest updates? 
I am!


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 15, 2020)

artomatic said:


> Anyone still having issues with hanging notes with the latest updates?
> I am!


I am, after the 1.0.4 update. But I'm using Reaper and I read it was a common issue with Reaper. (Although I never get stuck notes with Kontakt).

Update: I'm getting LOTS of hanging notes now; it may correlate with changing articulations near the end of notes.


----------



## Eptesicus (Aug 15, 2020)

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> I am, after the 1.0.4 update. But I'm using Reaper and I read it was a common issue with Reaper. (Although I never get stuck notes with Kontakt).
> 
> Update: I'm getting LOTS of hanging notes now; it may correlate with changing articulations near the end of notes.



It does, i get this with JXL Brass a fair bit when changing articulations with an overlap. I find i have to tweak note lengths a lot to stop hung notes.


----------



## Teldex (Aug 15, 2020)

There are two threads (that I am aware of) on the subject of the SINE 1.0.4 update. I wonder if there is a way to somehow combine them? The other thread beside this one, on the Commercial Announcements forum, entitled ‘Orchestral Tools – SINE Player - new performance update v1.0.4’ dates back to January of last year and is currently 35 pages long.

I’m trying to stay informed on the subject because I am still on v1.0.3, and don’t want to update to another version that has not been properly beta tested. (At the moment it seems that the VI Control forum members are the beta testers.)

I only own a couple of the JXL Brass instruments, and have so far only used them in small test projects, specifically for getting to know the library, the SINE Player, and any performance issues it may have. I have held back from using them in a serious project I’ve been working on in case they cause issues.

I’m also waiting to see if someone from Orchestral Tools posts a response soon...


----------



## Kevperry777 (Aug 16, 2020)

Ugh....have had to completely remove SINE from my Logic template. It's a mess...I wish I knew how to downgrade to 1.03 which was far more stable. I'm rooting for OT, I'm sure they are working diligently to fix.


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## ScrltPumpernickel (Aug 16, 2020)

Another thing, I forgot to write about that remained since 1.0.3:
MIDI channel filtering doesn't work after project reload (in Reaper). If I'm using Omni, I have to set the filtering to some random channel and then back to Omni. 
(I am using program change for switching articulations).


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## jcrosby (Aug 16, 2020)

I can confirm that attempting to remove a Sine instance in Logic causes an immediate crash.

Sine without a doubt has a memory handling issue. the vast majority of stability issues I've seen on my machine have been related to loading/unloading of samples.


----------



## jononotbono (Aug 16, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I can confirm that attempting to remove a Sine instance in Logic causes an immediate crash.
> 
> Sine without a doubt has a memory handling issue. the vast majority of stability issues I've seen on my machine have been related to loading/unloading of samples.



That would correlate with me having occasional crashes when I duplicate instrument tracks in Cubase. It just doesn’t do it for me to recognise a pattern of when it happens.


----------



## iMovieShout (Aug 17, 2020)

Over the weekend (down time) I decided to try SINE again. Re-installed NUENDO and Cubase and UAD, and hey presto SINE is now working without crashing when I close Nuendo or Cubase. Now to see if it remains stable with multiple SINE instances open together and with other plugins. Seems ok so far.

However, SINE has now stopped refreshing its GUI whenever I move it to another screen, so it freezes and only displays about 60% of its GUI.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Aug 17, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> Over the weekend (down time) I decided to try SINE again. Re-installed NUENDO and Cubase and UAD, and hey presto SINE is now working without crashing when I close Nuendo or Cubase. Now to see if it remains stable with multiple SINE instances open together and with other plugins. Seems ok so far.
> 
> However, SINE has now stopped refreshing its GUI whenever I move it to another screen, so it freezes and only displays about 60% of its GUI.


interesting. i confess i dont have a 2nd screen to experience this


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## Eptesicus (Aug 17, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> That would correlate with me having occasional crashes when I duplicate instrument tracks in Cubase. It just doesn’t do it for me to recognise a pattern of when it happens.





jcrosby said:


> I can confirm that attempting to remove a Sine instance in Logic causes an immediate crash.
> 
> Sine without a doubt has a memory handling issue. the vast majority of stability issues I've seen on my machine have been related to loading/unloading of samples.



It definitely does still have memory handling issues. I have had crashes when duplicating instruments too.

It has improved, but it has been 9 months now so it is worrying that this issue still persists.

From memory i dont think it has ever crashed when just playing/recording etc. It is only ever when loading/unloading samples or closing the sequencer/SINE.


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## BassClef (Aug 17, 2020)

First time SINE user... purchased Ark1&2 bundle for SIONE... online specs said it was about 160GB compressed to 115GB after install... after install mine was only 85GB so I contacted them and sent them images of my installed directory... Tobias responded quickly with... "The numbers on the website are indeed wrong. We are always surprised ourselved by how efficient the SINE compression works!"


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## Vavastrasza (Aug 18, 2020)

Sine really is an absolute disgrace. It is incredible that a professional company is marketing expensive software via this piece of garbage and has maintained it in its bug-ridden state for so long.

I find it almost impossible to download anything. Random crashes. Mysterious error messages. It's just a complete waste of time.


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## A minor (Aug 18, 2020)

It took me hours yesterday to upgrade my SINE from 1.0.3 to 1.0.4. I had to delete the old one and start all over with the new one. I still can’t download LAYERS, which I had before but had to delete. I let SINE try for 18 hours and none of it downloaded. 
I’ve never seen such a mess before. Guess I will try one more time later and if not successful will have to forgo buying some selections I am interested in.


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## jbuhler (Aug 18, 2020)

Sine now reliably crashes my current project on close. I only have one instance loaded in the project, the horn a9 from MA1. As far as I can tell, it isn’t causing issues otherwise. I’ll try removing the instance and see if that resolves the issue.


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## MaxOctane (Aug 18, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Sine now reliably crashes my current project on close. I only have one instance loaded in the project, the horn a9 from MA1. As far as I can tell, it isn’t causing issues otherwise. I’ll try removing the instance and see if that resolves the issue.



same here. Latest osx and logic. Cannot delete a SINE track or close a project without crash


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## Sheridan (Aug 18, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> same here. Latest osx and logic. Cannot delete a SINE track or close a project without crash



Same here. Hope there will be a fix soon.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 18, 2020)

Has anybody found a way to downgrade to 1.3? Has OT chimed in on these issues?


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## Eptesicus (Aug 18, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Sine now reliably crashes my current project on close. I only have one instance loaded in the project, the horn a9 from MA1. As far as I can tell, it isn’t causing issues otherwise. I’ll try removing the instance and see if that resolves the issue.



I have had this issue for ages in Cubase. try clearing the articulation before closing the project and see if that works (ie have nothing from SINE loaded in ram)


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## MaxOctane (Aug 18, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> I have had this issue for ages in Cubase. try clearing the articulation before closing the project and see if that works (ie have nothing from SINE loaded in ram)


I mean, at that point, better to just hit Save, and accept that the app is going to crash when you quit.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 18, 2020)

some of you seem to have crazy ex version of sine. 

*goes to remove sine instance*

sine : "if you leave me I'll kill us both" 

*closes project*

sine: "if I can't have you, no one can"


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## jononotbono (Aug 18, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> I mean, at that point, better to just hit Save, and accept that the app is going to crash when you quit.



Thats exactly what I do but I just don’t know what is causing it. It would be unfair of me to accuse SINE without knowing. I just thought it was Cubase getting up to it’s usual tricks 😂


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## Eptesicus (Aug 19, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Thats exactly what I do but I just don’t know what is causing it. It would be unfair of me to accuse SINE without knowing. I just thought it was Cubase getting up to it’s usual tricks 😂



Remove all the SINE articulations after saving but before closing (but leave the SINE instances there - just make sure no instrument from SINE is loaded in RAM).

I have repeated this with 100% success. Therefore it is 100% SINE.


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## Eptesicus (Aug 19, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> I mean, at that point, better to just hit Save, and accept that the app is going to crash when you quit.



Yes, but then the project doesn't appear in the recent project list and i have read that force closing Cubase can sometimes cause issues/corrupt preferences etc.

I would prefer it if it just closed quickly and cleanly. Fortunately my work around works.


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## MaxOctane (Aug 19, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> Therefore it is 100% SINE.



There is no doubt latest SINE version is crash-y. My Logic Pro is completely fine except when I use the just-purchased Ark bundle.


----------



## MaxOctane (Aug 20, 2020)

@OrchestralTools any update on Sine player? Thanks


----------



## Kevperry777 (Aug 20, 2020)

I’ve been chatting with support, they said they have found the bug and are working on it.

In Logic pro if I use one instance of SINE with minimal articulation swapping it works reliably. But just one instance.


----------



## rnb_2 (Aug 25, 2020)

I just did a complete system rebuild on my music computer (to fix an issue with Studio One refusing to load VSTs; bonus: also fixed a ROLI issue) and a fresh install of SINE hangs on startup, won't allow me to do anything. Didn't have any problems with SINE before the system rebuild. Fortunately, I don't have any paid OT libraries - I've sent an email to support.

SOLVED: apparently, you can't fire up SINE outside a DAW until you've activated it inside a DAW.


----------



## Greg (Aug 28, 2020)

Tried the new version, crashed 3 minutes later. Back to waiting


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## sourcefor (Aug 28, 2020)

ManukaLuka said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> I recently purchased the new Tableau Solo Strings from Orchestral tools and I am really excited to use it. But, either the library or the SINE player is causing my DAW to crash (Abelton), this happens whenever I load the library or change articulations. I've also tried it in Logic and had the same issue. On occasion I will get this error message:
> 
> ...


I have been having problem in Logic with the sine player...It freezes my session when I try to remove an articulation, It doesn't playback Midi when I close and reopen the session..I always have to delete and reinstantiate! Very unstable at the moment, I wish there was a fix as I love the the sound and recently updated my Metropolis ark from kontakt!


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## sourcefor (Aug 28, 2020)

NoamL said:


> There is a huge benefit for the user. The ability to buy instruments a la carte which is prevented in Kontakt due to NI's licensing policies. The problem is this stability issue. Heard too many bad reports for me to trust putting it in VEP where it could potentially crash my entire orch template every couple days. I'd really like to try out a JXLB nki or two, but SINE needs to get better first. But if it ever does get to same level of stability as Kontakt, I'd be happy to mix and match them...


Yes I LOVE this feature but the instability prevents me from using it!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 30, 2020)

Anybody in Logic suddenly have SINE stop responding to key switches via the articulation ids? Just happened to me and was working fine just before. Quite frustrating!

Also experienced a mid-session crash with 1.03 even (downgraded from 1.04).

I don't have Engine, but of Kontakt, Play, and the Spitfire player, SINE is definitely trailing the pack in terms of stability on my machine.


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## novaburst (Sep 15, 2020)

1.0.5


----------



## novaburst (Sep 15, 2020)

Oh sorry that means the latest update


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## Jkist (Sep 15, 2020)

novaburst said:


> 1.0.5


I am glad you clarified. I thought it might be some sort of code for a super secret string library sale that I could use at checkout


----------



## Cormast (Sep 21, 2020)

Sine Player can't even launch properly. After I entered my name account and password it crashes.
V1.0.5 - Cubase 10.5.12 - Win10

No probelm at all with BBCSO spitfire/Play or synchron stage vienna

EDIT : For me, it was a problem of non-latin character present in my windows name account. Sine Player was located in a wrong folder name with strange character in "C:\users". I just had to relocate the Sine player folder in the right username folder. Thanks to orchestral tools's team advices !


----------



## PuerAzaelis (Sep 21, 2020)

No problem with 1.0.5 and Reaper


----------



## BassClef (Sep 21, 2020)

1.0.5 seems to have solved all of my problems inside Logic.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT (Sep 21, 2020)

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> I, currently, have to reinstall SINE every couple days, because it loses some C++ library dependency and freezes Reaper on a project load.
> 
> EDIT: Reaper 6.13, Windows 10 (1903), i7-7820X, 64GB, SATA SSD.


i keep getting this, i have to restart my pc to get the project to load properly. Honeslty, I really want to buy some JXL Brass articulations, but if the player is this unstable, I just can't be bothered. I really hope they get this sorted soon.


----------



## gst98 (Sep 21, 2020)

Sound like there might be some windows instability. Sine on Mac (mainly Logic) has just been amazing haven't had one incident since 1.0.5, where as 1.0.4 was pretty bad (certainly worse than 1.0.3 was).


----------



## NeonMediaKJT (Sep 21, 2020)

Might sound stupid, but how do i actually update the player itself?


----------



## Scamper (Sep 21, 2020)

gst98 said:


> Sound like there might be some windows instability. Sine on Mac (mainly Logic) has just been amazing haven't had one incident since 1.0.5, where as 1.0.4 was pretty bad (certainly worse than 1.0.3 was).



Yeah, I also keep getting errors and crashes with Sine 1.0.5 on Windows + Cubase.



NeonMediaKJT said:


> Might sound stupid, but how do i actually update the player itself?



You need to download the latest version of Sine, to be sure deinstall the old version and just install the new one. Not sure, if there is another way, but neither Sine nor the installer seem to provide straight update functionality.


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel (Sep 21, 2020)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> i keep getting this, i have to restart my pc to get the project to load properly. Honeslty, I really want to buy some JXL Brass articulations, but if the player is this unstable, I just can't be bothered. I really hope they get this sorted soon.


FWIW, the latest version of SINE loads fine for me.


----------



## JLKooistra (Sep 21, 2020)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> i keep getting this, i have to restart my pc to get the project to load properly. Honeslty, I really want to buy some JXL Brass articulations, but if the player is this unstable, I just can't be bothered. I really hope they get this sorted soon.


FWIW, version 1.04/1.05 is running stable on two of my PC's, W10Pro/2004, 32/64Gb, i7 7700/ AMD 2700x, Reaper 6/VePro7. Templates / instances for BO Inspire I and II, Amber and Tableau


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 21, 2020)

I had a few crashes on 1.05, but I uninstalled it and reinstalled 1.04 and it's been working fine again. 

I thought I needed to update it for Dagu, but I didn't.


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## Teldex (Sep 21, 2020)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Might sound stupid, but how do i actually update the player itself?


When OT notified me of the 1.0.5 update, their email had the following instructions:

“_To update, hit the [Download] button below, download and install. The new SINE version will replace your old one._”

That’s all I did, and the install was successful without having to uninstall the previous version (Cakewalk; Windows 10).


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 21, 2020)

Teldex said:


> When OT notified me of the 1.0.5 update, their email had the following instructions:
> 
> “_To update, hit the [Download] button below, download and install. The new SINE version will replace your old one._”
> 
> That’s all I did, and the install was successful without having to uninstall the previous version (Cakewalk; Windows 10).


normally thats how I update, but i felt like I was installing an older version uninstalling was a safe bet. 

That said, it didn't require me to re-direct it to my libraries(or even my custom mic mixes) so all is good.


----------



## jcrosby (Sep 21, 2020)

Sine's been very well behaved in Logic. That said it appears Sine and Studio One 5 don't
get along in Catalina. Instant crash when trying to open a project with Sine 1.0.5 in it.


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## nuyo (Oct 2, 2020)

Can anyone tell me if the Sine Player finally works in Fl Studio ? I already bought a few instruments of the JXL Brass Library and I would like to know if I can finally throw away my poorly resampled Kontakt Instrument Versions. ^^


----------



## Cheezus (Oct 2, 2020)

nuyo said:


> Can anyone tell me if the Sine Player finally works in Fl Studio ? I already bought a few instruments of the JXL Brass Library and I would like to know if I can finally throw away my poorly resampled Kontakt Instrument Versions. ^^



It has stopped crashing for me. I think you might still need to check the "use fixed size buffers" box though.


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## Marsen (Oct 19, 2020)

Just trying around with Sine Player, realizing, I can´t change articulations?
Doing it with the mouse, chooses the new articulation in Sine, but the old one still playing?
What do I miss? What´s going on?


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## Marsen (Oct 19, 2020)

I should be more precise:




I have loaded different patches like you see on the screenshot.
I choose French Horn & Celli as you see on screenshot, but Sine still plays the first grayed out "Flautando Strings & Woodwinds"-


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## BassClef (Oct 19, 2020)

Marsen said:


> Just trying around with Sine Player, realizing, I can´t change articulations?
> Doing it with the mouse, chooses the new articulation in Sine, but the old one still playing?
> What do I miss? What´s going on?



Click on the old one with your mouse and press the delete key. If the new one likely loaded a different MIDI channel, you will have to change that.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 19, 2020)

Marsen said:


> I should be more precise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you're still playing midi notes on channel 1. the number next to the instrument name is the midi channel that it receives. you're selecting an articulation on that channel but not playing midi notes on it, so it'll pull the settings up but you'll not hear what you're changing because you're still sending midi notes to channel 1.


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## Marsen (Oct 19, 2020)

Uhhh, thanks @ProfoundSilence 

Didn't realize, it was on different midi-channels. 
Cause before, I selected "with Midi channels", and then there was a "Midi" sign directly left at Articulation List, which wasn't there now.

Another question: Is there a possibilty to solo/mute an articulation right from the performance view, or do i have always to switch to Mixer view first?


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## Pier (Jan 24, 2021)

I was very excited about getting some OT products but after trying out Sine I won't.

I don't know about the audio performance, but the UI performance is quite bad. It freezes constantly when changing sections.

Also, how do you change the download destination folder?

I checked their help pages and apparently I should be able to select a different drive when downloading but I just can't. I'm only presented with a single drive (I have 4 mounted drives) and no way to change the download path either.






No thanks.

Hopefully Sine will improve as the OT products sound amazing on the demos and Youtube videos. It's quite unbelievable that a company that spends huge piles of money recording and producing these massive libraries, decides on resting all that effort in such an amateurish software.


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## jononotbono (Jan 24, 2021)

There are a few things that an upgrade to SINE needs...

Numerical values on the mic faders. When you move a fader, you have no idea what the value is.

Ability to reset faders back to 0db... just by pressing Cmd/Ctrl and left Mouse click. The same as it works for Kontakt. DAW faders. Plugin knob values. There is no way to know what value the faders are.

Ability to automate the faders. I can’t assign my physical faders using CC values still!

Purge samples and load as and when I play a key. Currently it’s purge all. Then press one key and then all samples load.

Option to choose exactly where a download goes and an update also installs.

That’s all from the top of my head at the minute. I was kind of hoping some of this stuff would be in SINE now it’s been out for over a year.


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## A minor (Jan 24, 2021)

Pier said:


> I was very excited about getting some OT products but after trying out Sine I won't.
> 
> I don't know about the audio performance, but the UI performance is quite bad. It freezes constantly when changing sections.
> 
> ...


I’ve had the same problem several times. OT support has helped me get it fixed but it is frustrating. Support thought it was a “permissions” problem. But I have permission on the external. The last time I just accepted it to download to my boot drive and then manually moved to my external. 
Hopethis helps.


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## Larbguy (Jan 24, 2021)

Since updating to 1.0.5, I haven't had any issues running it in Logic on OS Catalina. 

1.0.4 was a whole other story tho lol. Almost Cyberpunk 2077-esque in its glitches and crashes.
They really came through for 1.0.5


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## novaburst (Jan 24, 2021)

Pier said:


> I was very excited about getting some OT products but after trying out Sine I won't.
> 
> I don't know about the audio performance, but the UI performance is quite bad. It freezes constantly when changing sections.
> 
> ...


Before you can install library on a different drive you need to delete it from the player first then reinstall then select the new location,


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## Pier (Jan 24, 2021)

novaburst said:


> Before you can install library on a different drive you need to delete it from the player first then reinstall then select the new location,


I was in the middle of trying that and Sine crashed.

So I checked the app data folder and apparently they are using CEF (Chromium Embedded Framework). It seems the UI of Sine is basically a web browser.


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## MartinH. (Jan 24, 2021)

Pier said:


> I was very excited about getting some OT products but after trying out Sine I won't.


Same here. 



jononotbono said:


> There are a few things that an upgrade to SINE needs...
> 
> Numerical values on the mic faders. When you move a fader, you have no idea what the value is.
> 
> Ability to reset faders back to 0db... just by pressing Cmd/Ctrl and left Mouse click. The same as it works for Kontakt. DAW faders. Plugin knob values. There is no way to know what value the faders are.


Yeah, some of the design decisions are proper mind boggling to me. I can't believe this never got enough pushback to get fixed. Compared to all the stability issue etc. these would be so trivial to address.


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## BenjaminSquires (Mar 28, 2021)

Just bringing this thread back to life as I spent far too long this weekend trying to be friends with SINE, but it's not happening...

I spoke to OT back in 2019 when JXL Brass was first released because I was so disappointed with SINE and some of the library itself (I knew I'd never end up using it much like some of the replies above, SINE was just too unreliable. It'd probably be all over my template if it was in Kontakt). They actually told me back then after I complained about all the missing 'features' that numerical values on faders was on the wishlist, ctrl-clicking (or cmd, or alt, etc) faders to revert them to 0 was a known bug (neither of these have been fixed or implemented). And now on the most recent version of SINE it seems impossible for me to relocate a library (because for whatever reason we can't download files to a specific installation path, just to a chosen hard drive!?) without being greeted by a hundred 'invalid JSON' errors; I've deleted the library.json file, tried from standalone and plugin, nothing works. 

Not to mention this thing still crashes frequently, you can't see how much GB a selection of instruments is that you're downloading, no clue what sort of download speeds you're getting or any estimation of how long the download will take outside of eye-balling the progress bar until the timer arrives, no way of easily dragging a new patch and replacing an old one unless its specifically from that library, and that instrument.

I really like the idea of SINE, but as per the comment above, some of these design choices are so bizarre that they make me feel like I'm missing something. In the interest of fairness, swapping out an articulation and having the your mic mixes stay the same is great. Specific downloading of instruments/mics is obviously fantastic. More control over envelopes, dynamic layers, custom polymaps - all good stuff. I just wish they'd sort out the little things first because it all adds up.

If you're going to insist on giving us a new player to replace Kontakt, you have to at least have all the BASIC features that Kontakt already has outside of being a sampler, surely?


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## vvaidy (Mar 28, 2021)

I'm at the point where I am planning to put my Sine libraries on sale. No matter what I try, I cannot get Sine to load reliably. It would periodically hang my DAW on load, and now I'm reticent to put any Sine in any of my projects.

Most annoyingly, they offer no "upgrade" (or "downgrade") pathway to Kontakt, which tells me they don't particularly care. All their libraries sound absolutely gorgeous, and so I'm sort of in denial about having to sell it, but I'm pretty close.

Support hasn't helped either, with versions of "restart" or "get a faster drive" or "get more memory".

PS: I have a totally loaded Mac with fast SSDs that seem to have no problem with other libraries, of which I admittedly have too many, which might be the cause here


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 28, 2021)

vvaidy said:


> I'm at the point where I am planning to put my Sine libraries on sale.


You can't re-sell them, so you're stuck. Hope you get them working.


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## vvaidy (Mar 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> You can't re-sell them, so you're stuck. Hope you get them working.


Thanks for ruining my Sunday afternoon 

I guess I will try them again on a new machine when I upgrade next or whenever they fix whatever they need to fix.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 28, 2021)

vvaidy said:


> Thanks for ruining my Sunday afternoon
> 
> I guess I will try them again on a new machine when I upgrade next or whenever they fix whatever they need to fix.


You could try recording what's occuring


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## holywilly (Mar 29, 2021)

I’m now a huge SINE fan, SINE has been working reliably in both DAW (Cubase) and VEP 7. There are still room for improvement, such as multi-dimension poly keyswitch, and of course the rock solid mic merge.


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## LinearZero (Mar 29, 2021)

What DAW are you using? Is it a Windows OS?


BenjaminSquires said:


> Just bringing this thread back to life as I spent far too long this weekend trying to be friends with SINE, but it's not happening...
> 
> I spoke to OT back in 2019 when JXL Brass was first released because I was so disappointed with SINE and some of the library itself (I knew I'd never end up using it much like some of the replies above, SINE was just too unreliable. It'd probably be all over my template if it was in Kontakt). They actually told me back then after I complained about all the missing 'features' that numerical values on faders was on the wishlist, ctrl-clicking (or cmd, or alt, etc) faders to revert them to 0 was a known bug (neither of these have been fixed or implemented). And now on the most recent version of SINE it seems impossible for me to relocate a library (because for whatever reason we can't download files to a specific installation path, just to a chosen hard drive!?) without being greeted by a hundred 'invalid JSON' errors; I've deleted the library.json file, tried from standalone and plugin, nothing works.
> 
> ...


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## Sunny Schramm (Mar 29, 2021)

LinearZero said:


> What DAW are you using? Is it a Windows OS?


His Profile says he uses Logic Pro - so I think he is a Mac User.

Technically I never had one of these problems with Sine on Win10 with Cubase 10/10.5/11.


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## LinearZero (Mar 29, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> His Profile says he uses Logic Pro - so I think he is a Mac User.
> 
> Technically I never had one of these problems with Sine on Win10 with Cubase 10/10.5/11.


Lol fair enough, if that's the case I can't really offer any advice. I did have problems with Sine Player in FL studio but after changing a few settings it seems to be fixed. So far no problems with CUBASE or FL studio on Windows 10 either.


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## onnomusic (Oct 7, 2021)

new update (1.0.6) is out today!


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## holywilly (Oct 7, 2021)

Mic merging is surprisingly fast!


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## SamC (Dec 8, 2021)

Not sure about anyone else but I just got hold of a new library from OT which required I update Sine to the latest 1.0.7.

Sine was fine for me before but now it is totally unusable. As a stand alone it crashes on open and opening in Cubase 11 crashes the project instantly. I cant even access my new purchase to download as it freezes within seconds. 

I've done multiple re-installs, made sure there's no duplicate .dll files, etc. 

It is absolutely appalling - I have deadlines with projects rendered useless because I can't roll back the updates...


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## Eptesicus (Dec 8, 2021)

SamC said:


> Not sure about anyone else but I just got hold of a new library from OT which required I update Sine to the latest 1.0.7.
> 
> Sine was fine for me before but now it is totally unusable. As a stand alone it crashes on open and opening in Cubase 11 crashes the project instantly. I cant even access my new purchase to download as it freezes within seconds.
> 
> ...



SINE is and has always been crashtastic. Im starting to think it is a feature rather than a bug.


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## Casiquire (Dec 8, 2021)

SamC said:


> Not sure about anyone else but I just got hold of a new library from OT which required I update Sine to the latest 1.0.7.
> 
> Sine was fine for me before but now it is totally unusable. As a stand alone it crashes on open and opening in Cubase 11 crashes the project instantly. I cant even access my new purchase to download as it freezes within seconds.
> 
> ...


They've been pretty quick in getting back to me with all my feedback and bug reports this past week. Have you reached out to support?


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## Pier (Dec 8, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> SINE is and has always been crashtastic. Im starting to think it is a feature rather than a bug.


Lots of companies think they can easily start producing and selling software products by simply adding a couple of devs into a basement... and that never works.


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## SamC (Dec 8, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> They've been pretty quick in getting back to me with all my feedback and bug reports this past week. Have you reached out to support?


They responded pretty quick asking my specs but yet to hear any practical info from them.


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## SamC (Dec 10, 2021)

Sine just randomly started working and I have no idea why. I told OT that it’s now stable but they don’t have any idea why either. They said “computers can be weird sometimes.”

Sorry, wish I could offer any insight in case anyone else runs into the problem on update. I just reinstalled and rebooted my system countless times, still wasn’t working, woke up the next day and there it was.


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## Pier (Dec 10, 2021)

SamC said:


> They said “computers can be weird sometimes.”


As a software developer this makes me cringe so much.

What I read is "we don't have a proper QA and testing team, and we have no idea why our products are failing".


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## novaburst (Dec 13, 2021)

SamC said:


> Sine just randomly started working and I have no idea why. I told OT that it’s now stable but they don’t have any idea why either. They said “computers can be weird sometimes.”
> 
> Sorry, wish I could offer any insight in case anyone else runs into the problem on update. I just reinstalled and rebooted my system countless times, still wasn’t working, woke up the next day and there it was.


You will get a little trouble of not loading if you dont delete the old dll file as it appears in some cases the older dll file has conflict with the latest Sine player .7 the conflict happens when using certain host IE VEpro

but deleting the dll file before the latest install of Sine solves this issue


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## SamC (Dec 13, 2021)

novaburst said:


> You will get a little trouble of not loading if you dont delete the old dll file as it appears in some cases the older dll file has conflict with the latest Sine player .7 the conflict happens when using certain host IE VEpro
> 
> but deleting the dll file before the latest install of Sine solves this issue


That was first issue I read about and deleted any conflicting .DLL files. It still didn’t work for me until a day or two later. Nothing else had changed in the interim, so not 100% sure what the issue was.


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## novaburst (Dec 13, 2021)

Yes that is strange, could have been a fresh install but at least your up and running


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## kitekrazy (Dec 13, 2021)

Reading this thread reminds me of the Gigastudio 2.5 days. 
I don't plan on using anything with Sine player soon.


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## jadedsean (Jan 1, 2023)

Bringing this thread back to life because i am have real issues with the Sine Player. Anyone else notice laging downloads? For example i am downloading Ark 3 for the last three days. It seems when i load up Sine my internet slows down dramatically. Here are two screen shots of my internet speed without sine and then when i launch Sine. Anyone else having these issues?


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## jbuhler (Jan 1, 2023)

jadedsean said:


> Bringing this thread back to life because i am have real issues with the Sine Player. Anyone else notice laging downloads? For example i am downloading Ark 3 for the last three days. It seems when i load up Sine my internet slows down dramatically. Here are two screen shots of my internet speed without sine and then when i launch Sine. Anyone else having these issues?


Yes, my download from OT last night was quite slow as well, but I’ve been recently having general internet issues of some sort that might be throttling by the provider. Speed tests all show fast speed, but streaming video has had lots of issues and downloads of VIs has been much slower than usual.


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## jadedsean (Jan 1, 2023)

Thank you


jbuhler said:


> Yes, my download from OT last night was quite slow as well, but I’ve been recently having general internet issues of some sort that might be throttling by the provider. Speed tests all show fast speed, but streaming video has had lots of issues and downloads of VIs has been much slower than usual.


Thanks, yeah its strange, i never had these issues before. It also could be an internet problem for me too but, it seems like its a Sine issue. Maybe its a server problem. I have contacted OT so i am sure they will get back to me after the holidays.


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