# Apogee vs RME



## Dracarys (Sep 28, 2013)

Hey guys, so I've decided to sell my mbox 3 mini and get a better offboard soundcard. I don't do much guitar or vocals so lots of ins/outs isn't important. I'd also like something that is fireware. Right now it's inbetween these too:

http://london.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell- ... Z513596345

vs

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell ... Z515726321

Everyone lives by RME on this site, so I'm wondering if anyone has experience with the Apogee.

I'm running cubase 6 64x on mountan lion.

Thanks!


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## mark812 (Sep 28, 2013)

RME.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 28, 2013)

If you buy a Duet, you want a Duet II.It is a great sounding box. RME has the best drivers in the business however.


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## germancomponist (Sep 28, 2013)

I use a Focusrite Saffire 56. A very good sound but maybe not the best drivers? I never had a problem with it... .


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## Daryl (Sep 28, 2013)

If you buy Apogee you are probably locked into using Apple hardware for the life of your unit, no matter what happens to the spec of the computers in the future.

D


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## wst3 (Sep 28, 2013)

I have not used the newer Apogee converters enough to recommend them, but the older stuff definitely had it's own character, and I really like it.

Which may sound odd... in fact it should sound odd, since in an ideal world a converter ought to be completely neutral!

Except that we know they aren't...

If you can beg or borrow one of each to demo I think you'll have no problem choosing, unless things have changed dramatically the Apogee will probably sound like an Apogee, while the RME will probably sound a bit more like an RME<G>, and I am not trying to suggest that one is better than the other.

There are so many factors that affect the audible results from a converter - even if two manufacturers choose the same chips, and follow the reference design exactly (which I would hope not!) the selection of passive components, the layout of the board, and even the enclosure can affect the sound.

I know, crazy eh?

And that's before we stray from the reference design... once you start tweaking the analog stages, or tightening up the clock things become orders of magnitude more complex.

And since it is becoming increasingly difficult to audition these things I usually suggest folks look at other criteria, the first of which would be drivers. Are drivers available for your platform? If you think you might change platforms in the future will there be drivers available? Does the developer have a good track record with their drivers?

Does it have balanced (and I mean real balanced) analog I/O? 

Do the inputs and outputs handle the levels you expect to use?

If you need digital I/O is it provided? Is it optional?

And how does it connect to the computer? USB2, USB3, Thunderbolt, Firewire400, Firewire800, S/P-DIF, AES, Ethernet?

And of course review or recommendations from those whose ears you trust don't hurt either.

If I were going to buy a new converter today I would look at RME certainly (but I am on windows for the foreseeable future), I'd also look at Benchmark Media and Prism, but those would stretch my budget...


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## cc64 (Sep 28, 2013)

Hi Anthony,

A while back i tried a few interfaces. The music shop let me try them side by side at my studio for 2 weeks. The Apogee Ensemble' s drivers where very flaky. I ended up buying a Metric Halo 2882. Sadly they don't do smaller interfaces like the duet...

It's been 2 years so maybe Apogee corrected the driver issues but i would go with RME anytime. Rock solid drivers from what i hear from other musicians.

Good luck!

Claude


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 28, 2013)

To me the issue with drivers is whether they get updated. And that's one of the things I like about Metric Halo.

As to the sound, my experience - based on living with about six interfaces side-by-side for several weeks for a report - is that in most cases it has to do with the price. Even the cheap interfaces sounded pretty damn good, and this was a few years ago. However, the less you paid the more brittle the sound was, for lack of a better description. (The price range was about $2000 [Apogee Ensemble] down to a couple of hundred.)

I'd also pay a lot of attention to the hardware quality, unless you're one of those people who still buys stuff to throw out in three years.  And on that account I have to say that I'm a big Metric Halo fanboy. 12 years and counting is not bad.

At the higher end of the $2000 range, the differences in sound between the RME Fireface 400, MH 2882, and Apogee Ensemble were very small even if they did line up with price, so for me there were other considerations.


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## Stephen Rees (Sep 28, 2013)

I've had a Fireface 400 for years of sterling service.

The Digicheck software suite of tools supplied (for free) by RME for use with their hardware is very useful.


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## Dracarys (Sep 28, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up guys. I forgot to mention an important thing, right now I have my Mackie HR24 speakers set up with XLR L/R, and I don't see any option for this with the Apogee or anything portable. I would have to use RCA which has weaker performance and sound.


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## cc64 (Sep 28, 2013)

Hi Anthony,

the Fireface has Balanced Line Outputs i'm sure you can get the right cable for connecting to your XLR speakers.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BPBQXM10/

Best,

Claude


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## Dracarys (Sep 28, 2013)

cc64 @ Sat Sep 28 said:


> Hi Anthony,
> 
> the Fireface has Balanced Line Outputs i'm sure you can get the right cable for connecting to your XLR speakers.
> 
> ...



I know, I meant for the apogee.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 28, 2013)

> I would have to use RCA which has weaker performance and sound.



Not at all.

Higher-end interfaces might use TRS or XLR jacks, and have balanced outputs. But the connectors should not be a factor in your choice.

I don't know where you read that, but it's bad information.


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## Jem7 (Sep 29, 2013)

germancomponist @ 28/9/2013 said:


> I use a Focusrite Saffire 56. A very good sound but maybe not the best drivers? I never had a problem with it... .



I'm using Saffire Pro 24. I think drivers are very good. Rock solid. Never had problems.


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## snattack (Sep 29, 2013)

RME has no competition when it comes to stability and latency.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2013)

snattack, RME is great, but they're not the only one. At this late stage lots of interfaces are very stable and have low latency.

***
You know, I wanted to say a little more about RCA connectors. There's some truth in what people say about them not being as good in our application, but the reasons aren't straightforward.

The main thing about them is that they're not designed for repeated plugging and unplugging. That's why they were used in things like home stereo equipment: they make a good, solid connection, and they don't come out easily.

The second issue is that they're unbalanced - they have two connectors instead of three. (Balanced connections work by having a third wire that's phase-reversed with the negative one at the receiving end, canceling noise picked up by both wires along the run; the term for this is common mode rejection.) Also, the third wire acts as a physical shield. But we're dealing with short runs in project studios, and chances are that noise you pick up over the air needs more than a balanced connection to be eliminated. That's not true with mic-level signals, which are much lower level, but we're talking about an audio interface's line-level connections.

Then the third issue is that unbalanced connections are -10dBV rather than +4 (almost always - there are some unusual exceptions). You'd think more voltage is better, but one is not intrinsically better than the other; they're just different electrical standards for audio.

So it's not true that RCA sounds worse than TRS or XLR, even though the latter are traditionally "pro" standards.


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## Justin Miller (Sep 29, 2013)

I have an Apogee Ensemble and its never had any driver issues on the three computers its been used on. I plan on upgrading to a Symphony I/O when I am able just because of the reliability of the ensemble. I've heard good things about Burl and Mytek as well if you are willing to pay more.


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## wst3 (Sep 29, 2013)

Much of what Nick says below is true, especially the parts about the real world usefulness of single-ended (unbalanced) interfaces. But there are some nit-picky technical things that I think could be made clearer, so I offer these without taking away from the original contribution...



Nick Batzdorf said:


> (Balanced connections work by having a third wire that's phase-reversed with the negative one at the receiving end, canceling noise picked up by both wires along the run; the term for this is common mode rejection.) Also, the third wire acts as a physical shield. But we're dealing with short runs in project studios, and chances are that noise you pick up over the air needs more than a balanced connection to be eliminated. That's not true with mic-level signals, which are much lower level, but we're talking about an audio interface's line-level connections.



A balanced output presents an equal impedance with respect to ground on each of two legs. It is not necessary to have a signal present on both legs, but it is common. When there is a signal present on both legs, and the signals are of opposite polarity then the signal is referred to as symmetrical, not balanced.

A balanced input sums the signals on the two conductors. As a result, anything that is common will cancel out, and anything that is different will not. This is called Common Mode Rejection, and the Common Mode Rejection Ratio describes how well common mode signals are cancelled.

The shield is probably the most poorly understood feature of a balanced connection. First, it is not necessary, the signal is recovered as the difference between the two signal conductors, a connection to the far end reference is unnecessary.

Ironically, that connection between far end and local reference is the biggest troublemaker in most audio systems. This is the reason noises can invade our systems! The actual causes are myriad, but the mechanism is often the shield.

Speaking of which - shields provide no protection from power line noise. At 60 Hz, or even one of the first few harmonics, the noise is propagated though magnetic fields, and they can pass through a shield easily.

The best way to prevent 60 Hz noise is to use twisted pairs (and these pairs need not be balanced, but it helps a lot!) Note I said best and not only.

Shields are the right protection tool for electrical fields. Foil shields seem like a great idea, but they have lots of problems, so your best bet is still a braided shield, or better yet a Reussen Shield.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Then the third issue is that unbalanced connections are -10dBV rather than +4 (almost always - there are some unusual exceptions). You'd think more voltage is better, but one is not intrinsically better than the other; they're just different electrical standards for audio.



There is no reason in the world that a single-ended connection needs to operate at the lower (-10 dBV) reference level, but they do. Teac tried to make that go away back in the 1970s, but they were not successful.

As far as better or worse goes... well, it cuts both ways.

A poorly designed balanced input (and trust me, there are HUNDREDS of examples) will almost certainly sound worse than a poorly designed single-ended input, and always sound worse than a well designed single-ended input, and it is a lot easier to design a good single-ended input!

The higher voltage used in "professional" (+4 dBu) gear does have several advantages. (aside, it is only 11 dB higher than the consumer level, not 14 as it appears) With a higher signal level, and the same noise floor, the 'pro' interface will be quieter.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> So it's not true that RCA sounds worse than TRS or XLR, even though the latter are traditionally "pro" standards.



After picking apart some of his statements I feel the need to underscore this last one. I can find good and bad examples of each type of interface, and more to the point, I can find good and bad examples of systems assembled with both!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Sep 29, 2013)

A very happy RME user here.

I have had my RME Fireface 800 for 6 years now and its rock solid. Not only in terms of stability but also build (definitely one of the best drivers and quickly updated).

I do a lot of additional music work and I have to carry my rig around a lot of times, I just carry my RME and I have even dropped it a few times - the side panels are slightly bent - lost one knob on the front panel.

Used it over three computers, burnt the Firewire port (twice) by mistake - well, one of my assistants did it by putting it in reverse but it did not damage the unit - just the Firewire controller card. So, it was an easy fix. Plus it has both Firewire 400 and 800 so at one time, when the 400 got burnt, the 800 was still running - must be on a different chip. Outstanding build and really rock solid performance.

Despite all this, the performance is amazing and its still holding up. RME has never crashed on me till now and no issues since the day I bought it.

Apogee may well be as good - no idea. I have a few friends who proudly stand by it - but of course, its Apple only.

They have good support too!

For its price, its sounds amazing. I dont know of anything more expensive than this - never tried it. Anything upwards from here is in a league of its own, I am told. Lynx audio etc. Then you are looking into Prism etc which is really high end you probably need to rob a bank for it. But again, stability is a question for us film composers with 20 GB templates and latency can be an issue.

Good luck with your choice!


Tanuj.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2013)

Bill, what have I said that you nitpick? I don't think you disagree with anything I said other than calling it balanced vs. symmetrical.

And what are you, a mastering engineer? Are you one of those dorks who twitches like Inspector Dreyfus [Herbert Lom in Pink Panther] when someone uses "phase" instead of "polarity?" 

I just wanted to explain why Casalena shouldn't believe what he heard about RCAs not sounding as good as XLRs.


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## wst3 (Sep 29, 2013)

Hi Nick,

No, I am not a mastering engineer... that's a skill set I have not even tried to attain.

I'm was not trying to pick you explanation apart, really, but the details do matter.

Phase and polarity are not the same, balanced and symmetrical are not the same, shielding does very little good, and often causes problem, and so on.

I thought I also made it clear that one can not judge an audio device by the connectors it uses. Well designed balanced interfaces make putting a system together a snap, but there is no reason to think that single-ended interfaces can not work just as well.

I once did some work for a mastering engineer, and one of the things he had me do was bypass the balanced stages in much of his gear. Since it was a fixed configuration it was safe, and it worked out well for him.

Take care...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2013)

Obviously I don't literally mean you're a mastering engineer. You know the guys I'm talking about - the dorks who argue with Bob Katz online and get upset about things like someone calling a balanced input a symmetrical one.

That aside, when I had an analog mixer and lots of unbalanced connections, I used to cut the shield at one end. And it's been so long that I've forgotten which one, but the idea was to provide extra physical shielding. Who knows whether it really did anything.

Oh, and by the way that was an old Ramsa mixer that had RCAs on the back for line inputs. Weird unit.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ramsa-by-Panasonic-WR-8816-mixing-console-with-power-supply-/230818709803 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ramsa-by-Panaso ... 0818709803)

That's just one like it. Scroll down.


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## wst3 (Sep 29, 2013)

very cool... I installed a couple of those Ramsa mixers, they were really quite good.

Cutting the shield at one end - often referred to as "telescoping shields" - it does work, but it is not without it's own problems... of course. The general consensus was that the shield is connected at the sending end only, and it is usually only done with balanced connectors (since you don't need the ground reference.)

But it can be done with single-ended gear, you just have to be a bit more careful in the planning stage<G>!

And yeah, I know what you meant, I just wish I was good enough to be a mastering engineer. 

I do sometimes argue with Bob K - but never in public, there is a list server for the audio uber-geeks, and I lurk there!

He's a really smart guy, and not at all afraid to ask questions and learn things, but sometimes he does hold on to his impressions of how things ought to work for a bit<G>! I've certainly learned quite a bit from him! But when I can return the favor I like to...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2013)

No question, he's a really bright guy.

But many of those guys do take themselves just a hair too seriously.


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