# The Secret to Programming Fast Legato Strings



## rgames (Jan 6, 2009)

Who has it?

It's been a thorn in my side since the beginning of my life with samples. I can never get the right balance of definition and sound quality. I either get a semi-staccato or a mess.

Here's an example of a cue I'm doing right now:

http://www.rgamesmusic.com/temp/FastStrings.mp3 (Fast Strings)

This one uses VSL legato with a bit of layered staccato. With just the legato, the attacks on each note are either too strong or not enough. Can't seem to get the right balance...

Any suggestions?

TIA,

rgames


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2009)

While I think that the East West platinum sus violins sound better on the passage you just posted than do the strings you are using (I just tried it playing "live"), I doubt anyone would be genuinely satisfied with any synth library trying to play a line like that. 

That's a "live guys" part only, I would guess.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

use the run samples?

Use the Grace legato performances instead of standard legato

try time stretching the stacattos to longer lengths and then layering them in. Tho it may take some work with the VE VI.

I'm sorry if some of my suggestions dont help. I dont have the Vienna VI. I'm old school Giga converted to Kontakt.


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## paoling (Jan 7, 2009)

This the beginning of a piece I was writing: 

http://www.layersofsound.kjulio.net/images/stories/mp3/varie/trombetta.mp3 (www.layersofsound.kjulio.net/images/sto ... mbetta.mp3)

The only thing I really like is how I achieved the effect... It was the "Run Simulator" patch in EWQLSO XP. Essentially you can create one similar by layering hard sustain patches with another a sort of slur patch. The staccato layer is not so much right for this effect since you need a sort of "glue" between the notes and the slur or glissando patches are best to imitate the little confusion of 20 players playing the same fast passage of music.
Another useful thing it's to play with the length and velocity of the notes the give more accent on the important ones...


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## TheoKrueger (Jan 7, 2009)

My oppinion is that because the runs in your piece have a lot of trills (a-b-a-b-a-b-c-d-e-f-e-f-e-f) for example, it sounds very mechanic and that if you are using Kontakt you should use the TKT script to get rid of the machine gun effect. Then, because the TKT script naturally changes the formant of the repeated samples, you should layer that with another string patch playing normally (without TKT script). You could also play a bit with the velocity to accent every 4th note for example.

For my string runs i use the Sus Vib Hard 18 violins patch from EWQLSO Gold edition, they sound lovely and they also have 2 velocity layers which really match eachother, one with a harder attack and one with a softer one.

Here's a demo mp3 i put together for you from various pieces using the EWQLSO strings:

http://www.lyricaldistortion.com/Theo/various_runs_theok.mp3 (www.lyricaldistortion.com/Theo/various_runs_theok.mp3)

Cheers,
Theo

PS: Sometimes i make a run for the Sus Vib Hard 18 and then copy paste it to a channel with Lyrical Sus Vib or Legato Sus Vib for example just to get a fuller sound. Also, you don't need the release samples for the runs in most occasions.


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## TheoKrueger (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey by the way, are the string runs on your website real runs or sequenced? I think they sound great.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 7, 2009)

I can only say that I think sometimes it may be wise to say to oneself, "While this is not what I would write if it were for real string players, since it is samples, I will write the following, because the samples sound better this way."


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2009)

agree with Jay


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## germancomponist (Jan 7, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> I can only say that I think sometimes it may be wise to say to oneself, "While this is not what I would write if it were for real string players, since it is samples, I will write the following, because the samples sound better this way."



How true!


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## rgames (Jan 7, 2009)

Theo - the background music uses the pre-recorded runs from the VSL Opus 1 library.

I also agree on the "write for the samples" approach, but I was hoping I might be able to improve my programming chops so that I could expand what I can write with samples. Maybe not... :( 

Thanks,

rgames


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## Ashermusic (Jan 7, 2009)

My word, I post that kind of response and everyone AGREES with me?

I must have stepped into a parallel universe :o


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## Thonex (Jan 7, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> My word, I post that kind of response and everyone AGREES with me?
> 
> I must have stepped into a parallel universe :o



I agree with you on that too :wink:


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## synthetic (Jan 7, 2009)

I think the faster legato samples in VI are what you want. From AP1 Violins:

11 PERF INTERVAL FAST:	Legato, Spiccato, Harsh, Marcato

Or write something else. Or hire live players.


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## Niah (Jan 7, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> My word, I post that kind of response and everyone AGREES with me?
> 
> I must have stepped into a parallel universe :o



What's funny is that you think that you have opposite views from people in this forum.

But the fact of the matter is that you don't.

Everybody knows and agrees about the limitations of samples and what they are, no need to state the obvious.

rgames already knows this as many of us here so all he wants to know is about certain tips that people may have to improve his run sequencing.

If you have them fine, if not then silence is golden. 8)


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 7, 2009)

rgames @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> Theo - the background music uses the pre-recorded runs from the VSL Opus 1 library.
> 
> I also agree on the "write for the samples" approach, but I was hoping I might be able to improve my programming chops so that I could expand what I can write with samples. Maybe not... :(
> 
> ...



You might try pre-recorded runs and melodyne them. A hit and miss proposal though - sometimes this works and sometimes it does not. 

The main problem usually is that the lines are so fast to play in - therefore a lot of composers end up scoring the notes instead which makes for some robotic performances. You could go into the staccato patch event list and start adjusting your velocities (or use a step sequencer) to give you the dynamic performance first - then layer VSL legato patch and blend the two. This could give you a nice blend of rosin and note connectivity.

Since midi mock ups are essentially smoke and mirrors, you also could try masking it - one idea is to add in legato flute or flutes section to double the violin lines. Good luck.


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## Fernando Warez (Jan 7, 2009)

Didn't J Backal mentioned something about using the trills patch from app. strings for runs or something?


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## Fernando Warez (Jan 7, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> My word, I post that kind of response and everyone AGREES with me?
> 
> I must have stepped into a parallel universe :o



:lol: 

Just put it in your sign and be done with it. :wink:


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## synthetic (Jan 7, 2009)

That's what I said. They call them fast legato now, I think. The "can I do this in VSL" question is often answered with "yes, a $1000 upgrade."


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## PolarBear (Jan 7, 2009)

rgames, when listening to your example I immediately felt the lack of dynamics in the run. Just have a listen for a real run and you'll get an idea perhaps. I also don't feel like the legato patches could do such a thing... I'd more try with layering stacs and marcatos. And: make use of variations, it's not machine gunning but it sounds the same throughout somehow for me. Last but not least: it's lacking definition, fast runs are played with more accuracy by players. Mix in a solo or chamber violins!

Hope that helps,
PolarBear


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## Dave Connor (Jan 7, 2009)

There would be the sound of the initial attack in your example so a staccato on the first note of every run would help. Then perhaps VSL perfleg-marcato as the basic patch underneath. You could try staccato on every note with the velocity up only on the first note if you want more bow sound. Maybe the staccato repetitions to avoid the machine gun. Also using the cross-fade modulation on the perf-leg marcato going from loud to softer on each group would emulate the natural dying out in volume as the bow energy drops.

My 2 cents anyway.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 8, 2009)

Niah @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > My word, I post that kind of response and everyone AGREES with me?
> ...



It was a joke. 

And while my views are indeed not opposite from some on the forum, they do frequently diverge at least as a matter of degree.

Either way, my original advice was IMHO sound, and apparently appeared to be so to a couple for others, so I say "Nyah" to Niah. /\~O


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## madbulk (Jan 8, 2009)

With all the love in the world... Boy that sounds just awful, dude. Just a whole lot to ask.

Short answer: I agree with Jay.

But if I were hell bent, or just trying to see if I could get it better as a frustrating exercise, I'd be layering run simulators, trills, sustain patches, and moving notes around to slop it up till my eyes ache. Simply impossible to get a small ensemble sound I'd think. I always settle for a "lots of players completely unable to play the figure together -- let the listener interpolate" effect.


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## rgames (Jan 8, 2009)

madbulk @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> With all the love in the world... Boy that sounds just awful, dude. Just a whole lot to ask.



:cry: 

Yeah, I know. I guess nobody has the magic bullet that can make it work.

I might give Frederick's melodyne idea a try, though, that's probably worth a shot. Unfortunately I only have the SE, not the full VSL library, so I can't try the other samples folks metioned.

rgames


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## Hannes_F (Jan 8, 2009)

Richard,

that would be my (samples only) take on it:

http://www.strings-on-demand.com/clients/rgames_LegatoViolins5.mp3 (http://www.strings-on-demand.com/client ... olins5.mp3)


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## PolarBear (Jan 8, 2009)

And that's done how, Hannes?


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## rgames (Jan 8, 2009)

Hannes - that sounds a lot better. There are only a few spots that bug me a bit, those that are the farthest out of rhythm. I think the attacks are much better, though.

What did you use to do it?

Thanks,

rgames


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## Hannes_F (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi,

it's no rocket science here, just notation output feeded into EWQLSO Platinum with SIPS.

Lately I was interested in getting good output straight from notation for having an effective composing process and found that EW driven by Overture is really cool for that. In Overture I basically write away but can quickly fix some velocities or note lengths on the fly. But since I possibly add some live strings on most of my stuff anyhow I do not need to tweak the midi for my strings a lot, just write dynamics and articulations like in this example.

My setup has one sustain patch (Qlegato plus SIPS but no release samples) and one staccato patch per voice parallelly. Close patches bounced, some attacks edited in audio, and the smallest amount of ERs and tail in Altiverb on it that I started to like.


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## Dave Connor (Jan 8, 2009)

rgames @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> Yeah, I know. I guess nobody has the magic bullet that can make it work... unfortunately I only have the SE, not the full VSL library, so I can't try the other samples folks mentioned.
> rgames



You could nail that part almost perfectly with VSL I would say and probably faster than any other way suggested here. Something to think about when the economy improves. :wink:


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 8, 2009)

Just spent a bit of time coming up with this recently. The whole piece is 16th note triplets in the vlns, va & celli.This is a rough mix with the strings up a little more than they will eventually end up. There is no doubling of WW's with the strings. Pretty much Vln2, Va & Celli form one unit and Vln 1 does its own thing. 

Spent hours on the strings. Did most of the layering tricks (except the Melodyne - good trick but when the whole piece is these runs it takes up soooo much time) doubling on slightly different articulations, built in many timing errors, added trems & trills' etc.
It's still not quite there. Time for a real string section I guess. 

I could be beating a dead horse but the AI time & pitch smearing capabilities could be the way to go. We'll see what they have at NAMM. 

http://homepage.mac.com/jackweaver4/.Public/Song%20of%20Roland6.mp3 (http://homepage.mac.com/jackweaver4/.Pu ... oland6.mp3)


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## Hannes_F (Jan 8, 2009)

Dave Connor @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> You could nail that part almost perfectly with VSL I would say and probably faster than any other way suggested here.



Except of mine which probably is the most basic workflow once the voices are installed.

That being said the VSL legato is indeed very smooth (from what I can say with Appassionata) but if you don't layer staccatos (or spiccatos as they are called there) into the slur beginnings it will be all too soft (for my taste).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2009)

> I can only say that I think sometimes it may be wise to say to oneself, "While this is not what I would write if it were for real string players, since it is samples, I will write the following, because the samples sound better this way."



Yes, but you can certainly program that passage using VSL. In all honesty I'd reach for Synful for that passage, but for example you can play it with the Perf Rep Harsh program in the Chamber Strings no problem. Then you could layer that with something like the long staccs if it's too aggressive.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 8, 2009)

Jack Weaver @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> Spent hours on the strings. Did most of the layering tricks (except the Melodyne - good trick but when the whole piece is these runs it takes up soooo much time) doubling on slightly different articulations, built in many timing errors, added trems & trills' etc.
> It's still not quite there.



Jack, I think you might be fighting at the wrong front here. Your enemy are the releases that probably come from ADSR. Once they introduce a fake sound into the fast transitions there is no layering trick or smoothing or reverb that gets this out any more.

Try to make the single voices dry, tight and articulated and reduce reverb tails (both release samples and ADSR envelopes) until you have convincing legatos per se without fake transitions inbetween. Then loosen this up by layering two or more of those voices with a little random between them and finally put that into a space.

The 'herd effect' is more convincing if done by layering of different patches instead of smoothing by ADSR or reverb.


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## rgames (Jan 8, 2009)

Jack - I think those sound pretty good, especially in the lower register. Some of the higher stuff later on seems to have a bit too much attack, but still pretty good.

Might be even better with Hannes' tips 

rgames


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## Hannes_F (Jan 8, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> for example you can play it with the Perf Rep Harsh program in the Chamber Strings no problem. Then you could layer that with something like the long staccs if it's too aggressive.



Nick, what we need here is an attack at the beginning of each group or bow change, followed by a legato of eight or four other notes. This is very different than a constant mixture of staccatoò¹ž   ¢	¹ž   ¢
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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2009)

Understood, Hannes, but if you play the full envelope of the first harsh note and then play the subsequent ones shorter you can get something close to what Richard is going for. If you then smooth the whole thing over with long staccs you get even closer.

The problem, of course, is that the regular VSL legato isn't fast enough.

But the point is that there are lots of ways to do it, such as KI's suggestion to use the grace note programs. Yiou could probably use trill ones as well.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks Richard. Yeah, the higher vlns with VSL always seem to be harder to deal with. I hadn't thought about it before but you could be right about the attack on the higher lines. 

Hannes,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the releases that probably come from ADSR'.
Most likely we're having a difference of terminology here. 

Do you mean the inherent release time & shape of the articulations that I chose? In 80% of the fast strings runs it is VSL and I did no manipulation of ADSR with the articulations (even though that is available within the Vienna Instruments interface). 
But I'm certainly willing to believe that the releases need to be different. I'd don't throw any idea on the scrap heap before I've had the chance to try it out myself. 

I appreciate the fact that you're a currently practicing string player. That's not my background. 

I do like the idea of starting with crisp, well articulated lines w/ realistic legato and then doubling, then messing their timing up and ending up with the right reverb at the end of the procedure. 

Usually what I do is when I see something on this forum that I like I copy it, put it in a Word document and leave near my keyboard until I'm doing some piece of music that might require that idea.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 9, 2009)

Jack Weaver @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by 'the releases that probably come from ADSR'.
> Most likely we're having a difference of terminology here.
> 
> Do you mean the inherent release time & shape of the articulations that I chose?



Yes, that is what I meant.


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## bluejay (May 17, 2009)

Hi guys,

Well I've been trying to throw some fast legato strings on a piece I wrote and it's driving me up the wall.

Here's my attempt: -

http://www.jamessemple.com/ls/setnin1.mp3

There's not much strings, just a run at the start but it was bugging the hell out of me.

Anyway I used a fair few layers here: -

VSL App Strings Perf Trill
VSL Chamber Strings II Perf Legato
VSL Solo Strings (Kontakt format) Performance Legato
SISS Vi 1 legato w/ script
Symphobia Accented Sustained Strings (w/legato on)
Symphobia Short Trem Violins

I then EQd them all to death to try and give them air but not that bright synth sound.

The funny thing is that after all that (and this was the sound I was mostly happiest with) it vaguely sounds like EW strings ... weird.

Anyway, all help and friendly advice is welcome.

cheers

James


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## synthetic (May 17, 2009)

Sounds nice to me. Maybe a little more tremolo strings if you want it messier?


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## Mahlon (May 17, 2009)

James, that sounds convincing. Are all of those layers playing the run? I mean, each patch is allowed to develop its full ADSR?

Mahlon


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## bluejay (May 17, 2009)

Pretty much. I used the close patches for the Symphobia stuff because the tails were spoiling the effect.


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