# I have no Word...



## fiestared (Jul 29, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ions-killer-revealed-as-American-dentist.html


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## sleepy hollow (Jul 30, 2015)

From the article:

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"Of course, it is a personal achievement to harvest any big-game animal with a bow and arrow," said Glen Hisey, the curator of the Pope and Young records programme. "It is a way of honouring that animal for all time."
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Honor is a very bizarre and somewhat dumb concept. Interestingly enough, many people don't understand what I'm saying, when I let them know what I think about honor. Anyway, the hunt continues; hunter turned into prey, bow & arrow replaced by countless articles and Facebook posts.


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## vicontrolu (Jul 30, 2015)

I just wish he was eaten alive by some other lion..of course, that would be in his honor


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## muk (Jul 30, 2015)

Of course that dentist deserves all the spite. He is an animal torturer, and believes that hunting threatened species with a crossbow was a 'hobby'. Had he spent the 50'000$ for a reputable charity project instead of for pursuing his pervert 'hobby', he could have restored the eyesight of 1000 children in third-world countries, or built 33 schools in third-world countries, or protected 30,000 people from malaria for 3 years (saving around 14 lives in the process). Against that background his expensive 'pastime' is beyond grotesque - it is deeply immoral.
But the real problem is not one dentist with atrophied moral cognition. The problem is that it is still very much possible and legal for any person with enough dough to buy licenses to hunt down endangered species. The short lived internet outrage - eventhough that dentist certainly deserves it - is therefor slightly misdirectioned. That being said, we should stop eating tuna. Bluefin tuna, for example, is an endangered species and is even nearing extinction in certain regions (Mediterranean Sea and east Atlantic Ocean). It's easy to sit in front of the screen, condemning an animal torturing dentist, while enjoying can of an endangered species.


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## vicontrolu (Jul 30, 2015)

Totally agree although i dont take a picture with a dead tuna, neither i enjoy the process of hunting and killing the tuna. To me, thats what makes it specially miserable.

But yeah, we all can find ways to be better persons.


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## fiestared (Jul 30, 2015)

muk said:


> Of course that dentist deserves all the spite. He is an animal torturer, and believes that hunting threatened species with a crossbow was a 'hobby'. Had he spent the 50'000$ for a reputable charity project instead of for pursuing his pervert 'hobby', he could have restored the eyesight of 1000 children in third-world countries, or built 33 schools in third-world countries, or protected 30,000 people from malaria for 3 years (saving around 14 lives in the process). Against that background his expensive 'pastime' is beyond grotesque - it is deeply immoral.
> But the real problem is not one dentist with atrophied moral cognition. The problem is that it is still very much possible and legal for any person with enough dough to buy licenses to hunt down endangered species. The short lived internet outrage - eventhough that dentist certainly deserves it - is therefor slightly misdirectioned. That being said, we should stop eating tuna. Bluefin tuna, for example, is an endangered species and is even nearing extinction in certain regions (Mediterranean Sea and east Atlantic Ocean). It's easy to sit in front of the screen, condemning an animal torturing dentist, while enjoying can of an endangered species.



I agree with you, my personal answer is, I am vegan.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2015)

Killing an animal to eat it or to wear is one thing, killing it for sport is just wrong IMHO.


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## muk (Jul 30, 2015)

Definitely agree that killing animals for a sport is plain wrong and condemnable. However, what got me thinking more and more these days is a stance of certain philosophers. They say that there is nothing wrong with killing animals to eat them, or use their skin as clothing if it is necessary for your health or survival. They also say that in most industrialized nations that isn't the case anymore. You know, you *could* eat a broccoli instead of a steak. Also it is readily possible to eat healthily without consuming meat, there are other ways to get the protein etc. In a way, thus, our behaviour (you excluded fierestad, my respect to you) is not so different from that dentists after all. We pay to have animals killed that would not necessarily have to die. And in case of the tuna it includes an endangered species too. And at least some of these animals had to suffer quite a lot too before they died.
So, yes, I find killing animals for sports condemnable. But then again, we eat a steak because we like it, not because we have to in order to survive or be healthy.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2015)

Intellectually, I must agree and recognize that my continuing to eat what I eat is not morally particularly admirable and as the taste and texture of meat-like products is improving exponentially, there certainly could come a day when that is what I choose alternatives more and more. But there are degrees of bad behavior, and in my mind, killing for sport is a much higher level of badness.


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## rayinstirling (Jul 30, 2015)

Well, while being in the local intensive coronary care unit following my heart attack back in 1994 I craved for a tuna/mayo sandwich and my lovely wife supplied one that evening. I keep eating tuna and keeping my fingers crossed.
Selfish? probably but then that's the capitalist world we live in. We'll reap what we've sown.


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## scarred bunny (Jul 30, 2015)

I liked the part where he says: "I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion."

So... he's sad that his hobby of killing animals for fun resulted in an animal dying? Or just sad that it was this particular animal, whereas a less famous and popular one would be okay to kill? And I really don't get this notion of 'honoring' an animal by, er, killing it with a crude tool and putting its corpse on display. This whole thing is pretty distasteful.

I do think there's a line to be drawn somewhere between killing for fun or sport versus killing an animal for a necessity like food. But it is indeed highly debatable to what degree meat eating really is a necessity in the modern world. If we're talking about health concerns, I suppose there are some decent arguments one could make in favor of eating meat to a limited degree. But certainly the majority of people in the developed world could easily cut back on their consumption (probably quite a lot) even if they don't abstain entirely, and would likely do both the animals, the planet, their own health and their country's healthcare costs a big favor in the process. 

But let's face it, most people eat meat mainly for hedonistic reasons. Morally questionable, maybe, but not quite in the same league as needless killing for sport. 

(All in my not terribly humble opinion, of course.)


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## rayinstirling (Jul 30, 2015)

If no one feeds on beef there will be no one feeding cattle.

Sorry, but I'm neither nice or fluffy.


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## muk (Jul 30, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> But there are degrees of bad behavior, and in my mind, killing for sport is a much higher level of badness.



I totally agree with that. I guess all I wanted to say is that the outcry in the media is a bit simplistic, and while it is a nice experience to feel morally superior it leaves a bit of a shallow aftertaste in this case. But for sure, killing animals out of pleasure is worse than killing them quickly to eat them.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 30, 2015)

scarred bunny said:


> I liked the part where he says: "I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion."



Haha, yes, that exact line also struck me when I read it. That is a textbook example of this farcical public relations vaporspeak. I deeply regret that me slamming my elbow into my neighbor's face has resulted in heavy bleeding of his nose!


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## jacobthestupendous (Jul 30, 2015)

Not to be contrary, but the tuna in a typical Chicken of the Sea can is not bluefin tuna (though it might be some percentage dolphin); bluefin tuna is an extremely expensive sushi fish.

Our whole food system (speaking as a middle class citizen of the first world) is really strange when you think about it. I can go to a store that is filled with _boxes of food_. It's been that way my whole life. Technology and marketing have managed to divorce the joy of food from the messy/painful/disturbing aspects of it's natural reality. Chicken isn't an animal, it is a type of nugget that comes frozen and boxed and becomes edible in the microwave. This divorce isn't just happening to our food. The same process has been underway with sex (birth control, abortion, etc.), violence (sports, video games, etc.), and other less base pleasures for a long time. This whole forum is a result of technology's pursuit of the pleasure of creating beautiful instrumental music divorced from the lifetime of learning that it would require most of us to master playing to a comparable degree (if we ever could)--nevermind the roomful of lifetimes required for the orchestras living inside the average VI controller's library catelog.

There is a messy reality associated with most of life's pleasures. I'll leave it to the philosophers to decide to what degree the death of the animal should be attributed as guilt to the eventual consumer of the chicken nugget (or the chicken of the sea). More principled people than myself acknowledge that guilt and let it prevent their partaking in the pleasure. Others accept the responsibility and are content to eat their tuna sandwich and answer to God for it someday.


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## jacobthestupendous (Jul 30, 2015)

I concur, though. Hunting for sport is deplorable.

It's at least understandable folly for a person who never considered the life that preceded existence as his microwave dinner. Far greater is the folly of the man who has considered it and judged it worth less than his temporary amusement.


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## Jaap (Jul 30, 2015)

muk said:


> Definitely agree that killing animals for a sport is plain wrong and condemnable. However, what got me thinking more and more these days is a stance of certain philosophers. They say that there is nothing wrong with killing animals to eat them, or use their skin as clothing if it is necessary for your health or survival. They also say that in most industrialized nations that isn't the case anymore. You know, you *could* eat a broccoli instead of a steak. Also it is readily possible to eat healthily without consuming meat, there are other ways to get the protein etc. In a way, thus, our behaviour (you excluded fierestad, my respect to you) is not so different from that dentists after all. We pay to have animals killed that would not necessarily have to die. And in case of the tuna it includes an endangered species too. And at least some of these animals had to suffer quite a lot too before they died.
> So, yes, I find killing animals for sports condemnable. But then again, we eat a steak because we like it, not because we have to in order to survive or be healthy.



Very good post Muk!

I am already for many many years vegetarian and of course I was shocked by what happened to this Lion, but we tend to forget that for own taste billions of animals are slaughtered in a year (10 billion already in the US alone per year, source - Why we love dogs, eat pigs and wear cows by Melanie Joy, very good book, just read it again!)
People tend to see me straight away as a sort of activist when I bring this stuff up, but most of the animals that are consumed for our daily food die in horrible conditions. I do not judge whether people eat meat, but I do judge how we threat those animals in a very cruel way. If you want to eat meat, fine, but create at least a sort of awareness in my opinion in what conditions your cow, pig, chicken lived and died before you eat it
I saw so many facebook posts passing by about this news and though I find it very good that everyone is disgusted by this (and should be!), I also find it hypocrite though since many of them are having meat for dinner where they did not even think about how that piece of meat died for their consumption.


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## MarcusD (Jul 30, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> as the taste and texture of meat-like products is improving exponentially



Not so sure about that...


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## fiestared (Jul 31, 2015)

Jaap said:


> Very good post Muk!
> 
> I am already for many many years vegetarian and of course I was shocked by what happened to this Lion, but we tend to forget that for own taste billions of animals are slaughtered in a year (10 billion already in the US alone per year, source - Why we love dogs, eat pigs and wear cows by Melanie Joy, very good book, just read it again!)
> People tend to see me straight away as a sort of activist when I bring this stuff up, but most of the animals that are consumed for our daily food die in horrible conditions. I do not judge whether people eat meat, but I do judge how we threat those animals in a very cruel way. If you want to eat meat, fine, but create at least a sort of awareness in my opinion in what conditions your cow, pig, chicken lived and died before you eat it
> I saw so many facebook posts passing by about this news and though I find it very good that everyone is disgusted by this (and should be!), I also find it hypocrite though since many of them are having meat for dinner where they did not even think about how that piece of meat died for their consumption.


Thanks, I wouldn't write it better... My way of thinking is what is alive deserves to live, so I try to don't kill anything voluntarily (even mosquitos, like the Dalai Lama). But, I don't force anybody to think like me.


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## sleepy hollow (Jul 31, 2015)

fiestared said:


> My way of thinking is what is alive deserves to live





fiestared said:


> But, I don't force anybody to think like me.


And yet you _like_ a post that says "hope the guy gets eaten alive by a lion". Strange, isn't it?
Don't get me wrong - I don't want to criticize you and I do not think that this is hypocrite or anything. It just seems to be a very strong contradiction, and I find that strangely interesting. Well, we just should not forget that we all are animals too.


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## vicontrolu (Jul 31, 2015)

BUZZZ! It was me who said this, not fiestared. Leave the vegan alone! 

But please dont come with the "we all are animals" argument.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 31, 2015)

vicontrolu said:


> But please dont come with the "we all are animals" argument.



Not animals? A virus then?


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## vicontrolu (Jul 31, 2015)

A mistake from nature


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## chimuelo (Jul 31, 2015)

Anyone know if he's mounted the Head in his Garage yet...?
A regular Ben Gazarra from the movie "Roadhouse" starring the long gone Guitarist, Swayze and Gazarra.
I must be getting old or something.

May the animals come alive and give him nightmares like Dennis Berkeley was having in that movie too. Damn I forgot, he's dead too.
Maybe the stuffed animals put a curse on all of them.
FWIW the fat guy Berkeley was a really good singer, a bluesy Greg Allman kind of voice.
Use to sit in with us doing Stormy Monday (yawn-yawn) while filming with that elite water abuser Tom Selleck in that Carson City Prison movie.....
He's the only one left....
Maybe a flood will take him out....:innocent:


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## Michael K. Bain (Jul 31, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> he taste and texture of meat-like products is improving exponentially



Oh yes, that's true. MorningStar Farms makes excellent meat substitutes. I eat the Grillers meatless patties frequently. I fry it in a pan, 5 minutes each side, with liquid smoke on it. Add it to a bun with lettuce, tomato, pickles, cheese, condiment, it tastes like a burger - more like a burger than McDonald's, for sure. And their meatless crumbles are excellent for spaghetti. The texture is a little strange at first, but I got used to it fast.

I think hunting for sport is despicable.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 31, 2015)

We have a radio show host in LA, Neal Savaedra, who does a show called The Fork Report and he has local restaurant owners and chefs come in to his studio with their food. He is a "if it tastes good, I eat it" guy but some of the vegetarian restaurants have been bringing in food that he says really gets the taste, texture and "mouth feel" of meat so well that he can imagine a time in the not too distant fduture where he rarely eats meat simply because he has no greater enjoyment of food motivation to do so.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jul 31, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> We have a radio show host in LA, Neal Savaedra, who dos a show called The Fork Report and he has local restaurant owners and chefs come in to his studio with their food. He is a "if it tastes good, I eat it" guy but some of the vegetarian restaurants have been bringing in food that he says really gets the taste, texture and "mouth feel" of meat so well that he can imagine a time in the not too distant fduture where he rarely eats meat simply because he has no greater enjoyment of food motivation to do so.


I understand that sentiment. I'm eating less and less meat, because veggies taste so good. Before I went on my diet, i loved steak. But now I have no craving for it. And I prefer eggplant parm to chicken parm by a longshot. It's rather lengthy process to make, but it sure is good!


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## Jaap (Jul 31, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> We have a radio show host in LA, Neal Savaedra, who does a show called The Fork Report and he has local restaurant owners and chefs come in to his studio with their food. He is a "if it tastes good, I eat it" guy but some of the vegetarian restaurants have been bringing in food that he says really gets the taste, texture and "mouth feel" of meat so well that he can imagine a time in the not too distant fduture where he rarely eats meat simply because he has no greater enjoyment of food motivation to do so.



In the Netherlands we have now a guy (and he is doing very well with his branch) called "the vegetarian butcher" (literal translation). He makes vegetarian meatballs, fish free tuna (he brings it with a lot of humor as well). The first time I tasted one of his vegetarian hamburgers I was feeling guilty as hell since I really had the idea that I was eating meat haha. Of course I forgot how meat really tastes like since it has been so many years that I have not eaten it that I can't exactly remember it, but still 
I often use his products when I have people over at dinner who eat meat in their daily life and also they say they thought it was the "real deal".


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## juliansader (Jul 31, 2015)

Unfortunately, vegetarianism is not necessarily more humane than eating meat. It all depends on the farming practices used.

In fact, when it comes to commercial, mass-produced foodstuffs, free-range meat and eggs might be your best bet, rather than cereals, vegetables or even fruit.

Free-range animals live relatively happy, peaceful lives, and are (supposed to be) killed in quick, painless ways. I would actually contend that they live better lives than their counterparts in the wild. Moreover, the farms also support many other smaller wild animals, birds, mice etc.

In contrast, large-scale 'intensive' crop farming entails huge suffering of small animals. For example the killing of mice during plowing. At least in some countries it is now illegal to poison entire bird flocks, but it used to be common.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jul 31, 2015)

juliansader said:


> Unfortunately, vegetarianism is not necessarily more humane than eating meat.


You know where we all thought you were going when we read that, right?





:smiley:


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## NYC Composer (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> You know where we all thought you were going when we read that, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now you're just being too V.C.


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## Jaap (Aug 1, 2015)

juliansader said:


> Unfortunately, vegetarianism is not necessarily more humane than eating meat. It all depends on the farming practices used.
> 
> In fact, when it comes to commercial, mass-produced foodstuffs, free-range meat and eggs might be your best bet, rather than cereals, vegetables or even fruit.
> 
> ...



The step to being a vegetarian was just a first step in a very large process for myself to create more awareness in how I live my life and what results my lifestyle has on my environment (humans, animals, planet).
Most people (myself included) tend to like bargains and when things are cheaper. Whether is goes from the latest EW sale or having a good bargain with your veggies in your local supermarket. But when things are cheaper and even more when things like food are non stop cheaper then they used to be, you have to ask yourself what happened to make it this cheap. Often it's the results of mass productions and with mass production at least something or someone is suffering.
In crop farming it is indeed just as you described the use of pesticides which kills a lot of birds, mice etc indeed (and are also very unhealthy for ourselves). When it's about sugar, chocolate and that kind of stuff you know often (hidden) slave or child labor is involved. Same goes with your clothing and so and so on.

In a world where we want it all, we want it now and we want it free we need to reinvent ourselves I think. Our modern western lifestyle is too demanding on our planet for all its life (humans, animals, environment). We consume like crazy, but do we really need everything? We have so much unused things in our households, we trow away so much food and we made it possible because we can afford it because we made it cheap. If things we produced a healthy way with good conditions for both human and nature and it would be more expensive therefor we would first ask ourselves if we actually need it and if so, we would not dispose it so easily as we do now.

I am not saying I am the perfect human being and I am also part of this society and have my flaws in this whole process. For me the journey to make it better just started and is a long (and often frustrating) one. It is so deep already in our daily life that it is hard to do it all perfect. Heck I feel often like a complete detective when I am doing my shoppings since you have to do actually quit some research to find the right products. All the "bad" stuff is lying nice in front of you with screaming plates "now even more cheaper", while the "good" stuff is often hidden far behind.

Again I am not saying everyone should be like this. Everybody has the right to live it's own life in his or her way. I would like to see more awareness though and it would be great if our countries political leaders would also have more eye for this instead of the economic growth (which we also need of course).


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 1, 2015)

I wish more people talk would about these issues like Jaap does. Too many overly aggressive "green" smart asses out there, who just want to elevate themselves above others (guilt induction and all that nonsense).
A calm exchange of ideas and experiences (for example the meat-like products in this thread) is the way to go. No need for bullying.

I can see myself being on a meat-free (and yet balanced) diet, but not next week. Maybe in a couple of years.


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## Jaap (Aug 1, 2015)

sleepy hollow said:


> I wish more people talk would about these issues like Jaap does. Too many overly aggressive "green" smart asses out there, who just want to elevate themselves above others (guilt induction and all that nonsense).
> A calm exchange of ideas and experiences (for example the meat-like products in this thread) is the way to go. No need for bullying.
> 
> I can see myself being on a meat-free (and yet balanced) diet, but not next week. Maybe in a couple of years.



Very true and thank you 

I don't like it as well when people are overly aggressive about this subject (or any btw). The world has evolved too much and became to diverse and complex to claim or hold an absolute right and wrong in such matters I think. What is nice is that we can have indeed discussions and it's good if things get heated up sometimes, but I think we should try to always have an ear for what somebody else has to say and consider those thoughts as well, no matter how far they are away from your own. Personally I think it's much more effective in the long term to be inspired by others and inspire others yourself then to demand and force your thoughts on others, no matter what subject.


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## Vin (Aug 1, 2015)




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## toomanynotes (Aug 1, 2015)

I hope he gets eaten by an animal too. That way round would make fine logic...hence we are not animals...but this ass'ole hunter certainly fits the bill.


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