# Has anyone ever done this with their keys?



## Kent (Jul 27, 2020)

I’m thinking through my next studio upgrade, and while I’m not married to this, I found it interesting and plausible enough to see what your thoughts were.

consider the following:

Weighted “Piano-esque” 88-key controller, potentially no aftertouch, front and center
+
synth-action/light semi-weighted 25-key controller, definitely aftertouch, within reach but perhaps slightly less accessible
+ (optional) drum pad

does anybody work this way?

::edit:: forgot to mention, definitely with a separate CC controller like the Platform X+. I consider that a given in this scenario, just like the computer keyboard and Kensington trackball (not to mention a RME ARC USB) are also givens.

This is more about note input.


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## musicboyy (Jul 27, 2020)

I have a setup similar to that. An 88-key weighted centered in front of me (no aftertouch) at piano height, a ROLI seaboard centered on my desk behind the computer keyboard and a Moog Subsequent 37 to my right (semi-weighted with aftertouch). I feel like I have my bases covered and everything is within reach. 

I’ve been curious about picking up a inexpensive drum pad controller at some point.


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## Kent (Jul 27, 2020)

musicboyy said:


> I have a setup similar to that. An 88-key weighted centered in front of me (no aftertouch) at piano height, a ROLI seaboard centered on my desk behind the computer keyboard and a Moog Subsequent 37 to my right (semi-weighted with aftertouch). I feel like I have my bases covered and everything is within reach.
> 
> I’ve been curious about picking up a inexpensive drum pad controller at some point.


So you like it then? I was just thinking it makes good sense because it’s a lot more likely I’ll be using more than 2 octaves for a keyboard part, but everything else is going to pretty much be in a range...so make the piano big and the “synth” smaller.


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## musicboyy (Jul 27, 2020)

Yea, I like the setup. I tend to do most on the 88-key, but have the Moog to use as a controller if I need aftertouch and/or lighter keys. I have a relatively small room, so this works best for my situation.


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## Hywel (Jul 27, 2020)

Or... what about a powerful laptop (mine is a MBP 16) placed just above the 88 note with a 4k monitor driven by the laptop placed on a desk at right angles to the 88 note. This placement leaves the desk uncluttered for editing, mixing, sound design or whatever other process doesn't involve the 88 note while still giving you a monitor above the 88 note.


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## Kent (Jul 28, 2020)

Hywel said:


> Or... what about a powerful laptop (mine is a MBP 16) placed just above the 88 note with a 4k monitor driven by the laptop placed on a desk at right angles to the 88 note. This placement leaves the desk uncluttered for editing, mixing, sound design or whatever other process doesn't involve the 88 note while still giving you a monitor above the 88 note.


I am not sure I follow...


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## synthesizerwriter (Jul 28, 2020)

One thing to consider with 88 note controllers is the vertical height, which can be quite a lot more than synth-style keyboard beds (Plus some of them can be very heavy, which means they need a strong shelf/runners). Lots of people put them on a shelf underneath the desk top, so you have the thickness of the desk top (deeper = more prestige, often!), plus a small gap, plus the height of the controller keyboard, and then the thickness of the slidable shelf... Which can leave very little room for your legs, but may also mean that the top surface of the desk is quite high. Continually adjusting a chair to get the right working height is awkward as well. Mocking up the arrangement first to check out that you are happy with all of the dimensions is a good approach. 

(I didn't spend enough time getting everything bedded in at the right heights, and so I've got various bits of shim under my work surfaces to try and get the heights right - and there's an annoying support that my right leg rubs against all the time... Oh, and beware gas-lift chairs that either rise or fall gradually...)


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## Kent (Jul 28, 2020)

synthesizerwriter said:


> One thing to consider with 88 note controllers is the vertical height, which can be quite a lot more than synth-style keyboard beds (Plus some of them can be very heavy, which means they need a strong shelf/runners). Lots of people put them on a shelf underneath the desk top, so you have the thickness of the desk top (deeper = more prestige, often!), plus a small gap, plus the height of the controller keyboard, and then the thickness of the slidable shelf... Which can leave very little room for your legs, but may also mean that the top surface of the desk is quite high. Continually adjusting a chair to get the right working height is awkward as well. Mocking up the arrangement first to check out that you are happy with all of the dimensions is a good approach.
> 
> (I didn't spend enough time getting everything bedded in at the right heights, and so I've got various bits of shim under my work surfaces to try and get the heights right - and there's an annoying support that my right leg rubs against all the time... Oh, and beware gas-lift chairs that either rise or fall gradually...)


yep—this is why I'm thinking through this now instead of after buying things


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## synthesizerwriter (Jul 28, 2020)

One other thought about your '88 piano action, plus synth 'aftertouch', plus drum pad' approach is to consider also adding a separate MIDI Controller for CCs for expression, etc. Positioning and stability are very important for MIDI Controllers, and you might want to get one of those slightly sticky 'non-slip' mats that are made to stop stuff sliding around on car dashboards.


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## Hywel (Jul 28, 2020)

kmaster said:


> I am not sure I follow...


Ok, maybe it was me not understanding your query, and I may still not have grasped it entirely but in essence my solution to the crushed knees or desk being too high issue is to have a right angled, two workplace approach where both positions are comfortable to work at as in my picture. Please ignore me if I haven't grasped the query properly.


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## synthesizerwriter (Jul 28, 2020)

Right angle setups are a good solution for the ergonomics, but monitor speaker placement is then tricky.


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## Kent (Jul 28, 2020)

Hywel said:


> Ok, maybe it was me not understanding your query, and I may still not have grasped it entirely but in essence my solution to the crushed knees or desk being too high issue is to have a right angled, two workplace approach where both positions are comfortable to work at as in my picture. Please ignore me if I haven't grasped the query properly.


Ah. I see. Thanks for clarifying!

It's not quite what I was asking for—an offset keyboard is a whole other realm of solutions to the ergonomic/aesthetic/'Feng shui'/acoustic hypercube, and one I'm definitely open to exploring, but right now I'm looking more at keeping everything up-front. (Trying to balance that with a want/need to write sheet music on a standard desk, too, is yet another can of worms)


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2020)

I have a similar setup. I have an NI M32 on the desktop with an 88 note controller under the desk.
I think it's worth having an honest conversation with oneself as to what controller is used most. In my case, it's about 70% in favour of the smaller controller and so I prioritised ergonomics and layout around it.

I also like the right angled approach detailed above, though space inhibits this at the moment. A good solution to the monitoring issue is simply to have a set of cans handy for those moments when you're working at the '88, on the assumption the desktop is the mixing area.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jul 28, 2020)

I had an additional 25 key controller for quite a while, but I never got very happy with it. As long as you mostly work in C or F scales it might be ok. But was hard to work in B or Bb for me. I changed to a little bigger one.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 28, 2020)

Yep!


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## EthanAvry (Jul 28, 2020)

I think as mentioned above, a separate expression controller would be a great investment. I think for me ideally I'd like to end up with a fully weighted 88 key MIDI controller alongside an expression controller.
For what it's worth, the only other advice I can offer is maybe to stay away from semi-weighted midi controllers - I find that as a keyboard player, I tend to prefer either one extreme or the other. Either the keys are fully weighted and it feels like a piano, or they're unweighted and feel like an organ/synth. I have an M-Audio Keystation 88ES right now and I personally do not prefer its semi-weighted action. That being said, totally my preference and I'm sure others would disagree.

However, I definitely think there is something to be said for having the 2 keyboards - the larger one for sketching ideas/recording piano parts maybe and the smaller for playing in quick melodies or parts that are contained within 1 or 2 octaves. Even better if the larger keyboard is on one of those retractable drawers, maybe!


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2020)

And here it is...reduced due to a covid related move. Second monitor incoming. The extra notes on the M32 really do make a difference. It's strange how few companies offer that size.


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## Kent (Jul 28, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> And here it is...reduced due to a covid related move. Second monitor incoming. The extra notes on the M32 really do make a difference. It's strange how few companies offer that size.


Do you like mini-keys for orchestral instruments? (Or, better yet, what instruments _do_ you use it for?)


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2020)

kmaster said:


> Do you like mini-keys for orchestral instruments? (Or, better yet, what instruments _do_ you use it for?)


For orchestral stuff, it's great when you're doing the single notes + modulation thing. I use it for programming, drums, synths, sample mangling, orchestral stuff. The Logic integration is useful for mixing etc.

It's less about instruments I guess, more about what I'm performing at the time. I tend to use the '88 for "piano-y" like parts or when I'm going to need the left hand more. If you think about it, when putting an arrangement together, you're not piling on two-handed parts on top of another all of the time. Everything has to have a space in the mix.

Edit: I should also add that the NI M32 keys are bigger than the average mini 'bed. Makes the difference.

My 2c.


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## Kent (Jul 28, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> For orchestral stuff, it's great when you're doing the single notes + modulation thing. I use it for programming, drums, synths, sample mangling, orchestral stuff. The Logic integration is useful for mixing etc.
> 
> It's less about instruments I guess, more about what I'm performing at the time. I tend to use the '88 for "piano-y" like parts or when I'm going to need the left hand more. If you think about it, when putting an arrangement together, you're not piling on two-handed parts on top of another all of the time. Everything has to have a space in the mix.
> 
> My 2c.


That's exactly why I'm kind of leaning this way. It would be very odd if I needed a two-handed _but_ non-"keyboard" part, so why futz around with a full-size (or nearly-full-size) synth-action keyboard if I am not using it as a full-size keyboard?? I'd rather have the right tool for the job than a compromise... right?


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## SupremeFist (Jul 28, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> .
> Edit: I should also add that the NI M32 keys are bigger than the average mini 'bed. Makes the difference.
> 
> My 2c.


I agree; the m32 is by far the nicest "mini" controller I've tried: it's very pleasant and responsive. (I use mine for synths, where the knobs come in really handy, and often for violin VIs or whatnot; the weighted 88 is for piano but also for initial sketching of other arrangements.)


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 28, 2020)

kmaster said:


> That's exactly why I'm kind of leaning this way. It would be very odd if I needed a two-handed _but_ non-"keyboard" part, so why futz around with a full-size (or nearly-full-size) synth-action keyboard if I am not using it as a full-size keyboard?? I'd rather have the right tool for the job than a compromise... right?


For sure.
Also, the ergonomic gains are considerable if you can somehow get the '88 out of the way when you don't need it.


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## Kent (Jul 28, 2020)

@SupremeFist @Alex Fraser the only issue with the M32 I'm seeing (for my purposes?) is that it doesn't seem to have AT...

Does look rather handsome, though


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## SupremeFist (Jul 28, 2020)

kmaster said:


> @SupremeFist @Alex Fraser the only issue with the M32 I'm seeing (for my purposes?) is that it doesn't seem to have AT...
> 
> Does look rather handsome, though


True, if you need AT you'll have to look elsewhere, but I don't care about it.  It's a really sweet bit of gear otherwise.


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## wst3 (Jul 28, 2020)

I've had probably a dozen similar setups, none has been perfect, but as of now (subject to change on a whim) I am using:

Roland Rhodes MK-80 - 88 key, weighted controller, front and center.
NI S61 Mk2 sits on top of it for after touch and of course the lighter action.
Roli Seaboard Block and Block M sit on top of that for when I'm feeling adventurous, they are, I'm afraid, a little to far for me to reach for them all the time.
The computer keyboard rests on the Roland Keyboard when I am using the S61, and vica-versa, by far the worst part of the set up. I had the computer keyboard on a slide-out shelf under the Roland, but that was awkward.
I have a Roland Pad-8 (the real antique) set up off to the side, that part at least works well<G>.
I have an NI Kore2 for CCs, and it works pretty well for me. I'd prefer faders for some things, but you can't have everything.
I have a Icon Audio Platform M and the Softube Console 1 for mixing, but no really good place to put them, so they sit on a shelf above the keyboards and get dragged down when I need them - sub optimal!
In the past I've tried the right angle approach, with the Rhodes in front and the S61 (or EPS Classic or Oberheim xK - I've tried lots of things<G>) on the left or right hand side, I seem to favor the right hand side. This provides ample room for everything, but when I'm working with the S61 I'm listening to my left, and that seems odd. It probably isn't, but it feels that way.

If the Rhodes didn't weigh a metric ton I might try to find a way to slide it out of the way, but is not practical.

I've considered building a custom desk with slides for everything, but I haven't settled on the details, so that's still a pipe dream for the moment.

All that said, you are on the right track, I think. There are times when you want a weighted keyboard, there are time when you want an unweighted (or possibly semi-weighted?) keyboard. And there is no substitute for knobs and faders and buttons, and really no substitute for pads you can smack.

TOO MUCH STUFF!!!


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## Kent (Jul 28, 2020)

wst3 said:


> TOO MUCH STUFF!!!


I think this is something we can all agree upon!


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