# Spat v altiverb.



## korgscrew (Oct 12, 2013)

Hey guys. 

Just about to purchase altiverb. One main consideration was the stage function.

How does this differ to spat in a stereo sense?

I know spat is great for surround mixing, but how dies it compare to altiverbs stage?


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## reid (Oct 12, 2013)

Practically speaking, your computer will most likely fall over long before you've opened enough instances of SPAT to simulate the ER stage positions of all an orchestra's sections. With Altiverb your cpu will just feel a tickle.


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## AC986 (Oct 13, 2013)

I like Altiverb and will almost certainly upgrade to 64 bit as soon as I can afford it.


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## chimuelo (Oct 13, 2013)

I am considering getting IRACAM VERB v3 just because I have several Surround mixers JLCooper Panner and wish to experiment with surround.
I also have Surround DSP reverbs so my qusetion is one of resources.
I have no issues loading ont of the various surround mixers and 8 of the Surround DSP Reverbs, but what CPU would I need to run 8 x instances of Verb V3...?
Right now my i7 3770 uses barely any resources except for Kontakt scripts, and PianoTeq 4 w/ their FX disabled.
I'd love to start using the resources I have, but hope I don't buy a product which causes me to need a CPU upgrade.

Thanks


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## Diffusor (Oct 13, 2013)

reid @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> Practically speaking, your computer will most likely fall over long before you've opened enough instances of SPAT to simulate the ER stage positions of all an orchestra's sections. With Altiverb your cpu will just feel a tickle.




SPAT is very light on the cpu. I haven't run into running out of cpu from too many instances. I would choose SPAT over convolution any day. Sounds amazing and infinitely tweakable.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 13, 2013)

http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/04/27/spat-worth-its-bytes-in-gold/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/04/27/spat- ... s-in-gold/)

http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/29/spat-your-new-best-buddy-for-mixing/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/29/spat- ... or-mixing/)

http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/04/04/spat-2-positioning-the-strings-and-a-flute/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/04/04/spat- ... d-a-flute/)


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## reid (Oct 14, 2013)

Diffusor @ 14th October said:


> reid @ Sun Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Practically speaking, your computer will most likely fall over long before you've opened enough instances of SPAT to simulate the ER stage positions of all an orchestra's sections. With Altiverb your cpu will just feel a tickle.
> ...



Nah - 'very light' is a misnomer. True, my description of a computer falling over is overly dramatic, but Spat is a hungry beast. Here's two screenshots - taking my usual orchestra ER template of 12 instances ( 4 strings, 2 WW, 2 Brass, FHorn and 3 Percussion) and creating it using both Spat and Altiverb (the Konzerthaus orchestral positioning presets), the difference in usage of CPU power is clear. And this is with the DAW just running audio on each track - start stacking up virtual instruments, and headroom is going to be at a premium before long. I absolutely agree that Spat is a thing of wonder - nothing else does what it does so well, but it carries a big stick..... :mrgreen: 

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/530744/Spat-x12.jpg

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/530744/Altiverb-x12.jpg


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 14, 2013)

First off this is an apples to oranges comparison.

Altiverb is a convolution reverb, meaning there are IRs of halls/studios in which to play your sound along with some spatial placement.

SPAT is NOT a convolution reverb. It's a specialized program for both spatially placing sounds AND optionally designing the room space in which you space your sounds. You are given a series of algorithmically designed rooms to start with. Using SPAT features, for starters you can: 

1) set sound placement stage left/stage right and stage front/stage rear;
2) place with reverb OFF so that other effects can be used;
3) adjust stereo width;
4) adjust or reprogram early reflections and reverb tail;
5) change the room shape;
6) design a room from scratch.

If you want to insert one instance per track, especially in Logic, I would only do that with Vienna Ensemble Pro. Further, to save resources, I would be inclined to run a section that had the same seating arrangement to a bus, then apply Spat to that one group of settings. 

There's a lot of good info in the reviews posted above which are written more as training guides.

As a disclaimer, AP is a dealer for this product.


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## Diffusor (Oct 14, 2013)

reid @ Mon Oct 14 said:


> Diffusor @ 14th October said:
> 
> 
> > reid @ Sun Oct 13 said:
> ...




Obviously I wasn't arguing that SPAT consumed less cpu than Altiverb, since SPAT is totally algorithmic..

And I still maintain SPAT is light. You must have a old machine.  And doesn't Logic have a reputation of being terrible at multithreading?


32 stereo channels of SPAT. Around 28% cpu. Less than 1% per instance.

http://www.animusmundi.net/images/SPAT_32.PNG


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## tmm (Oct 15, 2013)

Tried out both demos over the last few days.

To my ears, SPAT's ability to place an instrument is pretty impressive, and I liked te intuitiveness of the parameter controls.

But, when it came down to no holds barred tone, Altiverb was miles ahead for me.

One of my favorite reverb quality tests is to play something really 'clacky', like the Epic Taiko stick hits, move it around the reverb space, and see how well the 'verb a) can place the instrument, and b) can accurately create the reverb tail. Stick clack tails are especially brutal on algo reverbs. B2 is the only algo 'verb I've heard make good, smooth tails on stick clicks.

Altiverb passed both tests with flying colors (convo 'verbs fare much better in test (b), for obvious reasons). SPAT was great for (a), but didn't do well in (b), and at some settings was actually pretty bad / grainy.


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## Diffusor (Oct 16, 2013)

tmm @ Tue Oct 15 said:


> Tried out both demos over the last few days.
> 
> To my ears, SPAT's ability to place an instrument is pretty impressive, and I liked te intuitiveness of the parameter controls.
> 
> ...



With SPAT you can adjust the room to compensate for that. I use it with percussive material all the time and it excels at it but you have to optimize the settings like any algorithmic reverb.


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## Dietz (Oct 17, 2013)

tmm @ Wed Oct 16 said:


> [...]
> 
> To my ears, SPAT's ability to place an instrument is pretty impressive, and I liked te intuitiveness of the parameter controls.
> 
> ...



Then MIR Pro was obviously made for you!


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## tmm (Oct 17, 2013)

Diffusor @ Wed Oct 16 said:


> With SPAT you can adjust the room to compensate for that. I use it with percussive material all the time and it excels at it but you have to optimize the settings like any algorithmic reverb.



Yep, I figured that out. I was only able to tweak most of it out, though, not all. Nothing that would likely be noticed in a mix, but still, I'd prefer perfection if it's available for a similar price.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying how good SPAT sounds, or claiming more generally that either algo / convo is the 'better' reverb. SPAT (or most any algo verb) is obviously a lot more versatile, so it depends on what results you're after. Convo seems to (usually) just have more natural tails.

B2 is the only algo verb I've used with which I could get perfect tails, and it did it 'out of the box'. On top of that, to my ear, for better or worse, it's a lot 'warmer' sounding than SPAT.



Dietz @ Thu Oct 17 said:


> Then MIR Pro was obviously made for you!



LOL not that you're biased at all  I've wanted to try MIR Pro for a while, but I'm afraid I'll like it too much, and have to buy it.


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## maest (Oct 17, 2013)

I am not a huge fan of impulse responses, maybe it's from growing up in the 80's and loving the sound of Lexicons, plates, etc... but the IR reverb never sounds right to me, it always has this weird metallic-like sound ... Plus IR never really gets the proper "build-up" of a room...

I prefer verbs like Spat (or IRCAM's Verb) and UAD's Lex 224 over Altiverb/Revibe any day.. do I still use Altiverb/Revibe? - yes, there are practical purposes for it, such as sound design and to generate ER responses to feed into my "synth" verbs.

However - I STRONGLY recommend the new verb from UVI - Spark verb, this is a verb that has been in MachFive, and it sounds great! (plus it's only $199)

http://www.uvi.net/en/software/sparkverb.html

Best,

Sam Estes
Manager, Cinesamples
Sound Designer, Hollywood Scoring


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## quantum7 (Oct 29, 2013)

SPAT and B2 combined would be a dream! I tried the Spark verb demo and didn't like it at all. B2 sounds so much nicer to my ears.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 8, 2013)

Since this thread started, I've been working with Spat a little more. So here are some of my observations. 

I'll start first with this video from Ircam Tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1UlZ5N3R6k

There are multiple things you can do with Spat:

1. You can set it up for 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 surround (two versions on 7.1)

2. You can place mono-files in it per the above vid. 

3. You can place stereo files in it similar to the above vid. When you do this, in 5.1, you get 3 stereo pairs while in 7.1 you get 4 stereo pairs. 

4. Spat can "do" MIR (in real time) with multiple instances. What I've seen so far is that it must be in surround to "do" MIR, at least for right now. I need to test this a little more, though.

What you must realize is that Altiverb, MIR and Spat are radically different from one another. This means they are not directly comparable since Spat is algorithmic and the others are based on impulse responses. 

With Spat, you can create your space while with Altiverb and MIR, you're selecting your space. 

With Spat, you place by surround channel assignment. With MIR, you're dragging to a specific stage position.

Then there are all things Spat does per the articles above and the video created by Piet de Ridder. 

Depending on your needs, Spat can be an excellent tool.

HTH


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## marcotronic (Dec 9, 2013)

Is SPAT still 32 bit only? (Windows...)

thanks
Marco


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 9, 2013)

marcotronic @ Mon Dec 09 said:


> Is SPAT still 32 bit only? (Windows...)
> 
> thanks
> Marco



It's dual platform. Yes, 32bit for now. A lot of development fell behind because of AAX development from Pro Tools.

Also, Alexander Publishing now has a training document showing how to do surround in Logic to stereo output which is easy to apply to other DAWs. It's based on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1UlZ5N3R6k


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 10, 2013)

I personally really enjoy SPAT. I know lots of people whos opinions I trust swear by Altiverb, to me SPAT was able to do something great to my stereo image, naturally by placing instruments in its space. I've even just used it as a "room simulator" for placement and early reflections, and for the tail used VSL hybrid reverb to great result. My only advice would be to demo as many different reverbs as you can, as reverb tastes seem to be very personal, but if anyone has specific questions on SPAT feel free to ask me and I'll do my best to answer.


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