# New piano library - Yamaha CFX from Production Voices



## CeDur (Oct 18, 2021)

I'm a big fan of PV Production Grand and just recieved an email about 300 Grand Compact release. Most of demo examples sound quite dry and bright, but this one sounds really nice 



What are your thoughts?


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## kgdrum (Oct 25, 2021)

CeDur said:


> I'm a big fan of PV Production Grand and just recieved an email about 300 Grand Compact release. Most of demo examples sound quite dry and bright, but this one sounds really nice
> 
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts?





I’m definitely not a sampled piano aficionado or the ultimate authority on the different nuances and playability of various pianos this really sounds nice to me! 
I love Production Voice’s piano releases that I already have like the Halfling and the Death Piano so this really has piqued my interest! 
I wish it was a Kontakt based library because I’m more comfortable with the Kontakt environment but this does sound beautiful.

@CGR and other more qualified piano oriented maniacs I am curious what you all think about this new CFX piano that’s on the horizon ?


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## CGR (Oct 25, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I’m definitely not a sampled piano aficionado or the ultimate authority on the different nuances and playability of various pianos this really sounds nice to me!
> I love Production Voice’s piano releases that I already have like the Halfling and the Death Piano so this really has piqued my interest!
> I wish it was a Kontakt based library because I’m more comfortable with the Kontakt environment but this does sound beautiful.
> 
> @CGR and other more qualified piano oriented maniacs I am curious what you all think about this new CFX piano that’s on the horizon ?


It certainly has my interest. The developer Jason mentioned there will be a Kontakt based version released with more velocity layers and 9 mic sets, so will wait until then to assess. The Compact version does sound very good - a nice 'tighter' sounding alternative to the VSL and Garritan CFX pianos, and with more natural bite and presence than NI's Noire.


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## kgdrum (Oct 25, 2021)

@CGR 
Woah thanks for this great information! Knowing this I think I will also wait for the Kontakt based release.
Jason imo is an enormously talented developer and I really appreciate that the Production Voice piano libraries besides being great sampled pianos are unique & anything but generic.
I love that the PV pianos are quite capable of going into sonic territory’s beyond a typical standard piano library.

@CGR Thanks for facilitating another piano related GAS attack! 

The Halfling which I absolutely love was another piano library I purchased based on your recommendation. 
The official VI-C piano library GAS-meister strikes again!

😘 🎹


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## Fizzlewig (Oct 25, 2021)

Just tried going to the productionvoices.com website and it says account suspended?


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## poly6 (Oct 26, 2021)

Yeah, it's happened before:
Production Voices website is gone?? | VI-CONTROL

They seem to have problem keeping their website up....


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## lzcmusic (Oct 26, 2021)

I hope the Kontakt version supports Kontakt Player and NKS. This is a trend, even if the price is a bit more expensive.


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## CGR (Oct 26, 2021)

Fizzlewig said:


> Just tried going to the productionvoices.com website and it says account suspended?


Just some site maintenance:


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## re-peat (Nov 6, 2021)

Here's *a little something* with the Production Voices 300 Grand Compact.

This piano defaults with a slighty hard and harsh sound, I find, but it's manageable. (Needs some attenuation around 600-700kHz as well as around 4000 kHz, to avoid ear fatigue.) Otherwise, very decent library with excellent definition and very convincing piano power, making for an instrument that should work well in most anything that requires a crispy, snappy piano part.

At the moment only $29 by the way. Insane price.

__


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## CeDur (Nov 8, 2021)

I would trade my full Garritan CFX for this without hesitation if it was only possible.


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## tcb (Nov 8, 2021)

just purchased it!really good library,I am look forward to the full version


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## tcb (Nov 8, 2021)

I find a small bug.The G1 and F#1,velocity around 90,pedal down samples is a little later than other samples(about 40ms) When hit these notes in certain velocity,it will cause some out of beat.Especially playing Octaves.I am new to sfz sampler,but I will try to fix it by myself..
View attachment CFX BUG.mp4


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## CGR (Nov 9, 2021)

Looking forward to the multi-mic, 36 velocity layer Kontakt version being released. Here's a little test of some messing around on a Herbie Hancock tune with the 300 Grand Compact (with the built-in Jazz Club 1 reverb):
View attachment Production Voices 300 Grand Compact - Herbie Test.mp3


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## CeDur (Nov 10, 2021)

I'm nowhere near CGR's level of playing, but I'm having a lot of fun using 300 Grand. Compared to Production Grand 2, it has much more body, stronger bass but still you get some sparkle on the top. Also much prefer it to Garritan CFX, which seems to be 'too perfect' for me.

View attachment 300grand_every_breath.mp3




CGR said:


> Looking forward to the multi-mic, 36 velocity layer Kontakt version being released.


I'm not sure whether it will be 36 layers. From what I've read on PV page, 12 layers for Compact have been chosen from 'up to 36 layers recorded', but it was the same case for Production Grand and still in the final version 'only' 12 layers where left. Concert Grand has more. We won't know until it's released.

Should I wait or get VSL CFX? Ehhh.


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## CGR (Nov 10, 2021)

CeDur said:


> . . . I'm not sure whether it will be 36 layers. From what I've read on PV page, 12 layers for Compact have been chosen from 'up to 36 layers recorded', but it was the same case for Production Grand and still in the final version 'only' 12 layers where left. Concert Grand has more. We won't know until it's released.


From the email I received:

*Upgradable:*_ 300 Grand Compact is upgradable to the soon to be released 300 Grand for Kontakt that features 9 microphone perspectives and up to 36 velocities per note. The full purchase price of 300 Grand Compact will be credited to anyone who updates within the first 30 days of launch._


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## CeDur (Nov 10, 2021)

Maybe I've spent too much time with marketing team in my company, but 'up to 36' means, well, 'up to' :D

Still, the sheer number of layers does not say much about the library. What I've heard in Compact say a lot and I'm happy what I hear.


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## jasonachapman (Nov 10, 2021)

tcb said:


> I find a small bug.The G1 and F#1,velocity around 90,pedal down samples is a little later than other samples(about 40ms) When hit these notes in certain velocity,it will cause some out of beat.Especially playing Octaves.I am new to sfz sampler,but I will try to fix it by myself..
> View attachment CFX BUG.mp4


I fixed this and all other reported issues with the latest release, v1.1.3, which is available with the Pulse Downloader


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## sostenuto (Nov 10, 2021)

jasonachapman said:


> I fixed this and all other reported issues with the latest release, v1.1.3, which is available with the Pulse Downloader


Just what was hoped for _ installed and looking forward ! 👏🏻


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## CeDur (Nov 11, 2021)

CeDur said:


> I would trade my full Garritan CFX for this *without *hesitation if it was only possible.


I'm changing my mind. I would still trade Garritan CFX for 300 Grand (full Kontakt version when it's released), but *with* hesitation  

I keep deleting and re-installing Garritan. It's lazy holiday day today, so there was another iteration. I compared them side by side, tried to match velocities etc. Added a little reverb to 300 Grand to compensate lack of 'room' mic in Compact. By default, 300 Grand is brighter and maybe a bit cleaner. I feel the need to add a bit of saturation for more body. Garritan is darker with lower velocities, definitely, and still can 'sparkle' with high notes. I've recorded a few seconds from my today tests:


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## sostenuto (Nov 11, 2021)

'Seasoned' ears usually miss many / most subtleties _ so always appreciate saturation, reverb, other tweaks when posted with specific sources / settings. 
Comfortable that end-results translate to improved, perceived quality. 👏🏻


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 11, 2021)

CeDur said:


> Maybe I've spent too much time with marketing team in my company, but 'up to 36' means, well, 'up to' :D
> 
> Still, the sheer number of layers does not say much about the library. What I've heard in Compact say a lot and I'm happy what I hear.


I've often wondered why they say that with piano libraries. It's not like they'd have 36 velocity layers on one key, and 20 on another, the dynamics would be all over the place. I can't see it working for different mic positions either. I think more likely pedal down samples might have different numbers to pedal up, or they might have less velocities for release samples. The company itself doesn't strike me as one for corner cutting.


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## CeDur (Nov 11, 2021)

They say that, because nowadays everyone else say that and if you hide number of layers people might think you are trying to hide something you are ashamed of  

One thing I slightly disagree: different number of layers for pedal up and down doesn't automatically mean dynamics would be all over the place (although I have such piano library) as long as everything is done with sense. If I remember correctly, in piano lows and midrange benefit from more layers much more than highs.


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## CGR (Nov 11, 2021)

CeDur said:


> I'm changing my mind. I would still trade Garritan CFX for 300 Grand (full Kontakt version when it's released), but *with* hesitation
> 
> I keep deleting and re-installing Garritan. It's lazy holiday day today, so there was another iteration. I compared them side by side, tried to match velocities etc. Added a little reverb to 300 Grand to compensate lack of 'room' mic in Compact. By default, 300 Grand is brighter and maybe a bit cleaner. I feel the need to add a bit of saturation for more body. Garritan is darker with lower velocities, definitely, and still can 'sparkle' with high notes. I've recorded a few seconds from my today tests:



Thanks for posting this. Interesting comparison, and the 300 Grand holds up very well against the Garritan CFX, which is impressive given the 300 Grand has a single mic set of 12 velocity layers compared to a close & room mic mix with 20 velocity layers for the Garritan CFX.

I noticed your 300 Grand preset had the Tape Saturation set at 21, which helps to give it some extra body. Very much looking forward to the full version in Kontakt. @jasonachapman from Production Voices has a real talent for capturing acoustic pianos, and his mic choices & placements are always very well conceived and implemented.


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## CeDur (Nov 11, 2021)

I agree, even with compact version 300 Grand doesn't stand behind. I personally prefer its tone to Garritan. To be honest, when I used only Close mic from Garritan, 300 Grand was an easy winner, but wanted to make it a bit more 'challanging'. Like I mentioned in original post, I used reverb on 300 (Seventh Heaven Standard, default Large Wooden preset, Mix at 0/-19.6dB) to make up for lack of second mic. Probably there will be ribbon and 414 room mics in Kontakt one, so then the comparison would be more fair.

Yes, without saturation 300 Grand was a bit too bright for my taste. I didn't fully understood yet how this slider works, because at 0 it's actually louder than at 1-15 values. Combined with Touch Response at 30, value = 21 gave me similar loudness levels to 0 having a bit more body at the same time.


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## Pianolando (Nov 11, 2021)

Lode_Runner said:


> I've often wondered why they say that with piano libraries. It's not like they'd have 36 velocity layers on one key, and 20 on another, the dynamics would be all over the place. I can't see it working for different mic positions either. I think more likely pedal down samples might have different numbers to pedal up, or they might have less velocities for release samples. The company itself doesn't strike me as one for corner cutting.



I think it most likely will have different layers in on different keys, and that might work great depending on how it is programmed and mapped. I think it was Light and sound concert grand that did this, but it was kinda badly implemented with 36 layers on the super high notes (where it absolutely was not needed) but just a few in the crucial mid range. But theoretically there is nothing that says it can’t be done smoothly. It kinda makes sense as not all registers are as dynamic on a grand.


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## CeDur (Nov 11, 2021)

I wouldn't be afraid about layers in upcoming 300 Grand for Kontakt. Jason from PV seems to know what he's doing and judging by his last 'big' piano release for Kontakt:




he knows how to distribute layers evenly. 

Example from other Kontakt piano manufacturer, where the varying no of layers is really audible:


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## Flyo (Nov 12, 2021)

Anyone know when the intro price will last?


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 31, 2022)

Any news about the full release of 300? And how are people liking the compact version? I am wondering if this piano is too bright to mix with orchestra. I’ve been listening to the Concert Grand and comparing it to 300 Grand. The former might be the safer choice for orchestra, but I sure like the way the 300 sounds. Any opinions @CGR ?


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## CGR (Jan 31, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Any news about the full release of 300? And how are people liking the compact version? I am wondering if this piano is too bright to mix with orchestra. I’ve been listening to the Concert Grand and comparing it to 300 Grand. The former might be the safer choice for orchestra, but I sure like the way the 300 sounds. Any opinions @CGR ?


Me? . . . opinions?! 

It's showing a lot of promise based on the Compact version. After going from the Compact version of the Concert Grand to the full edition, I'd expect a similar improvement in dynamics, fullness, stereo image and tone shaping when the full edition of the CFX 300 Grand is released. I think it will have ideal potential as a orchestral piano sitting in a mix given it's clarity.

As it stands now, it's a very playable and clean sounding piano. I run it in the ARIA engine (based on the Plogue Sforzando plugin), giving me access to the quality built-in convolution reverbs which are part of the Garritan CFX.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 31, 2022)

Somehow I missed this when it was introduced, but I stumbled on it looking for a non Kontakt based piano. I program a lot of rubato, and Kontakt glitches, especially with gradual changes. I had been looking at the Garritan CFX when I found this. I noticed @re-peat liked it, and since I share his thoughts about Synchron pianos, it piqued my interest. I think I’m gonna pick it up.


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## CGR (Jan 31, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Somehow I missed this when it was introduced, but I stumbled on it looking for a non Kontakt based piano. I program a lot of rubato, and Kontakt glitches, especially with gradual changes. I had been looking at the Garritan CFX when I found this. I noticed @re-peat liked it, and since I share his thoughts about Synchron pianos, it piqued my interest. I think I’m gonna pick it up.


Going by previous releases, I'm guessing Jason at Production Voices will offer a discounted upgrade to the Full edition for owners of the Compact version.

Here's a quick & rough Piano-Orchestral motif to give you an idea of how it sits with strings:

View attachment PV 300 Grand + Orchestral Test.mp3


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 31, 2022)

CGR said:


> Going by previous releases, I'm guessing Jason at Production Voices will offer a discounted upgrade to the Full edition for owners of the Compact version.
> 
> Here's a quick & rough Piano-Orchestral motif to give you an idea of how it sits with strings:
> 
> View attachment PV 300 Grand + Orchestral Test.mp3


Ok, I’m sold. Thank you.


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## CGR (Jan 31, 2022)

Finally, some simple solo piano with a Scoring Stage reverb within the ARIA engine. The tuning of the piano is spot on - chords blend beautifully.

View attachment PV 300 Grand CFX - ARIA reverb.mp3


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 31, 2022)

It is criminal to think this was sold for $29.


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## moon (Jul 25, 2022)

Just got an email announcing the imminent release of the full version. Exciting!


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## Scottyb (Jul 25, 2022)

lzcmusic said:


> I hope the Kontakt version supports Kontakt Player and NKS. This is a trend, even if the price is a bit more expensive.


Agreed! Thrilled for NKS support on this! And very excited in general for this release! Looks like they might have built THE go-to piano library for lots of people. @Simeon (as usual) definitely showcased it wonderfully!


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## Flyo (Jul 25, 2022)

@Simeon Jason already preview the full version of Concert Grand! I’m waiting for it from the beginning


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## Scottyb (Jul 26, 2022)

I wonder do we have a firm date of release on this from anyone? Especially considering @Simeon thought it was already out! The compact version is one of my favorites already and I'm super excited for this one!


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## davinwv (Jul 26, 2022)

It looks to be encoded for Kontakt Player and NKS compatible. It will install from Native Access. Price = $149.00:









300 Grand - Production Voices


300 Grand is a Yamaha CFX piano sample library for Kontakt Player recorded in a true piano concert hall providing multi-microphone and ambisonic control.




www.productionvoices.com


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## Daren Audio (Jul 26, 2022)

Love the GUI design + the option to choose velocity presets + all the mics!


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## Flyo (Jul 26, 2022)

I’m wondering if would be another version with more resolution audio version of it. As many of the others piano from PV. The site says recorded at 96khz 24bit, and presented at 44khz 16bit with goodhertz conversion. This code translate audio without any lose? Based on Production Voices quality, the conversion will match the originals recordings.


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## Fizzlewig (Jul 27, 2022)

On the website it doesn't state about any staccato samples, unless I'm mistaken. If that's the case, I feel that was a wasted opportunity. It does sound incredible though, especially with the Hall mics.


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## PeterN (Jul 27, 2022)

Yea, sound is clear (neva heard of this, thanks for intro) I wonder if Kontakt support is good or bad thing, Im *mildly suspecting* Kontakt messes with piano sound -
probably being wrong though...but..but (why does our pianos never sound like on labels...)


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## CeDur (Jul 27, 2022)

With release for Kontakt Player PV might increase this VI sale numbers significantly.


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## Flyo (Jul 27, 2022)

There will be an intro price?


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## davinwv (Jul 27, 2022)

Flyo said:


> There will be an intro price?


I'm betting the $149 *is* the intro price. This product seems to be worth more than that.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 27, 2022)

This looks interesting. I have all their other Kontakt pianos.


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## Flyo (Jul 27, 2022)

Now the site announce the release date at Friday 29 July!


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## Scottyb (Jul 27, 2022)

Niiiiiiiiiiiiice!!!!!!


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## filipjonathan (Jul 27, 2022)

Ahhh it says "The FULL purchase price of 300 Grand Compact will be credited (as a refund) to your 300 Grand purchase to anyone who purchased 300 Grand Compact before July 25th, 2022 who updates to 300 Grand by August 29th 2022."

I didn't know about this piano until just nowwwww


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## Flyo (Jul 27, 2022)

filipjonathan said:


> Ahhh it says "The FULL purchase price of 300 Grand Compact will be credited (as a refund) to your 300 Grand purchase to anyone who purchased 300 Grand Compact before July 25th, 2022 who updates to 300 Grand by August 29th 2022."
> 
> I didn't know about this piano until just nowwwww


I don’t buy the compact version waiting the full 😓


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## Scottyb (Jul 28, 2022)

For the record I LOVE the Compact. A very playable and great sounding library!

Also what TIME on Friday is this releasing? 12:01AM? :-P


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 28, 2022)

The Compact was a steal at the $29 intro. I think I paid $49 for it a little later. I suspect that the full will be one of the best bargains in piano VSTs.


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 28, 2022)

The upgrade is live. I just bought it. It'll be several days for me to download the 67GB.


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## Scottyb (Jul 28, 2022)

Wooohooooo!!!! At being live not for the days it’ll take you to download. 😋


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## Scottyb (Jul 28, 2022)

Logged in and not seeing and discount from owning Compact. : /

Also looks like they’re having server trouble which is a good sign people are purchasing and downloading! So that’s good to see!


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## Daren Audio (Jul 28, 2022)

It's HERE!


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 28, 2022)

Scottyb said:


> Logged in and not seeing and discount from owning Compact. : /
> 
> Also looks like they’re having server trouble which is a good sign people are purchasing and downloading! So that’s good to see!


You don't get a discount upfront. You have to send in your receipts, and they credit your account the difference. Seems an odd way to do it, but that's what they did.


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## Scottyb (Jul 29, 2022)

Welllllll anyone with any thoughts yet?? I didn't get yet because honestly I was figuring the discount came off the total, so not in the cards yet. Excited to hear what everyone thinks!


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## sostenuto (Jul 29, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> You don't get a discount upfront. You have to send in your receipts, and they credit your account the difference. Seems an odd way to do it, but that's what they did.


Dug out receipts, but not amused. 🥴


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 29, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Dug out receipts, but not amused. 🥴


Yeah, I agree. I sent them over, but it ruffled my feathers a bit.


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## Scottyb (Jul 29, 2022)

Still no thoughts? Nobody?? REALLY??!


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 29, 2022)

Scottyb said:


> Still no thoughts? Nobody?? REALLY??!


I finally got it downloaded, and I've had a short amount of time to play with it. I don't really know what I think about it yet. I can't say if it will become my go-to, but I would buy it again. It sure could become my main piano. Tone is beautiful, if you like that Yamaha thing (and I do). Perhaps Master @CGR will enlighten us with his preferred settings at some point.


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## Scottyb (Jul 29, 2022)

Appreciate the info! Can't wait to hear more from it and about it!


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## filipjonathan (Jul 29, 2022)

Simeon got us covered


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## Scottyb (Jul 29, 2022)

Doesn’t he always!!


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## sostenuto (Jul 29, 2022)

Scottyb said:


> Doesn’t he always!!


Yep ! Simeon is magical guy ! OTH _ so many libs somehow not quite the same on personal DAW !! 🤪


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 29, 2022)

After playing with it for several hours, I think that this may well be the best piano I own. It is so highly customizable, which makes it a bit complicated to get a handle on. My only complaint would be that the upper register isn't quite as strident as I would expect a Yamaha to be. (Slightly adjusting the velocity curve helps.) In general though, it comes out the clear winner when alternating between my favorite pianos (Garritan CFX, Signature Grand, Vienna Imperial, Walker 1955, Ravenscroft).

This is my new go-to.


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## davinwv (Jul 29, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> After playing with it for several hours, I think that this may well be the best piano I own. It is so highly customizable, which makes it a bit complicated to get a handle on. My only complaint would be that the upper register isn't quite as strident as I would expect a Yamaha to be. (Slightly adjusting the velocity curve helps.) In general though, it comes out the clear winner when alternating between my favorite pianos. (Garritan CFX, Signature Grand, Vienna Imperial, Walker 1955).
> 
> This is my new go-to.


Thanks for your thoughts. I wonder how it compares to the Xperimenta Fazioli.


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## blaggins (Jul 29, 2022)

This Simeon walkthrough is dangerous, you've been warned. I do not need a piano but I am a little bit in love with that tone, and the mic choices seem superb.


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## davinwv (Jul 29, 2022)

tpoots said:


> This Simeon walkthrough is dangerous, you've been warned. I do not need a piano but I am a little bit in love with that tone, and the mic choices seem superb.


@Simeon is giving away a license. Did you enter the drawing?


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## blaggins (Jul 29, 2022)

davinwv said:


> @Simeon is giving away a license. Did you enter the drawing?


Uh no I didn't know since I just watched via the embedded player and might have fast forwarded through the verbal announcement. Thanks so much for the heads up!


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 29, 2022)

tpoots said:


> This Simeon walkthrough is dangerous, you've been warned. I do not need a piano but I am a little bit in love with that tone, and the mic choices seem superb.


I have had my eye on this piano since I purchased Compact 300 last winter, but if I hadn't, @Simeon's review would have made it an insta-buy. He is such a joy to watch, and somehow that guy can make just about anything sound good.


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## Fizzlewig (Jul 31, 2022)

So I've been 'discovering' and 'getting to know' the 300. I have attached a snapshot that I made up called 'Fizzlewig - 5 mic array'. It's a combination of Hammer, Out 1, Out 2, Stage and Hall2. It took me a while to get all the balances together (obviously my preference), but I'm happy with the result. Download and try it, you may like it. It's made from the 300 Grand 22V.


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 31, 2022)

Fizzlewig said:


> So I've been 'discovering' and 'getting to know' the 300. I have attached a snapshot that I made up called 'Fizzlewig - 5 mic array'. It's a combination of Hammer, Out 1, Out 2, Stage and Hall2. It took me a while to get all the balances together (obviously my preference), but I'm happy with the result. Download and try it, you may like it. It's made from the 300 Grand 22V.


Not being much of a Kontakt buff, can you tell me how to load this?


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## sostenuto (Jul 31, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Not being much of a Kontakt buff, can you tell me how to load this?


Go to Files Tab _ next to Libraries Tab. Choose your 300 Grand Folder location. Select and should load.


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## Jett Hitt (Jul 31, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Go to Files Tab _ next to Libraries Tab. Choose your 300 Grand Folder location. Select and should load.


Thank you very much!



Fizzlewig said:


> So I've been 'discovering' and 'getting to know' the 300. I have attached a snapshot that I made up called 'Fizzlewig - 5 mic array'. It's a combination of Hammer, Out 1, Out 2, Stage and Hall2. It took me a while to get all the balances together (obviously my preference), but I'm happy with the result. Download and try it, you may like it. It's made from the 300 Grand 22V.


I like it!


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## Fizzlewig (Jul 31, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> 
> I like it!


Thanks Jett, I did a little trick with the Hall2 by eq'ing out a lot of the room because I wanted to get a feeling of more height. I then added back in a little of convolution hall reverb. There is also a 1db boost on the high mids and high frequency on one of the mics! (if my memory serves me well) Glad you like it.


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## Fizzlewig (Jul 31, 2022)

So, I improved (opinion) my previous snapshot, and added more 'Sparkle' and 'Air', I called it 'Fizzlewig - Sparkle'. I really like this much better! (I still like the other as well though, haha) Download and see if you like it! Re-uploaded, more edits!!


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## Fizzlewig (Jul 31, 2022)

My next snapshot creation is called *'At the Movies'*, think of a piano soundtrack to Forrest Gump etc. I had a lot of fun making this, and super happy with the result. Put the snapshot in: Documents/Native Instruments/User/300 Grand folder. Sorry about the really poor improvised recording, just wanted to get it out there etc. Really hope you like it!


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## RMH (Aug 1, 2022)

When does the intro offer end?


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## Fizzlewig (Aug 1, 2022)

I don’t think there is an intro offer.


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## RMH (Aug 1, 2022)

Fizzlewig said:


> I don’t think there is an intro offer.


Thank you. So it's not a discount price right now, but just the original price?


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## Fizzlewig (Aug 1, 2022)

RMH said:


> Thank you. So it's not a discount price right now, but just the original price?


That’s correct. As far as I know.


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## RMH (Aug 1, 2022)

Fizzlewig said:


> That’s correct. As far as I know.


Oh, then I'm greedy, but I don't need to buy it right away. I'll have to wait for the discount.😉


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## sostenuto (Aug 1, 2022)

RMH said:


> Thank you. So it's not a discount price right now, but just the original price?


Yes _ but helpful Crossgrade for earlier Compact purchasers.


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## RMH (Aug 1, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Yes _ but helpful Crossgrade for earlier Compact purchasers.


That's right. Unfortunately, I didn't buy the compact version.😁


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## re-peat (Aug 2, 2022)

On the whole, I like this one very-very-very much. In fact, if all I had to take into account when sharing an opinion were my own likes and preferences, I wouldn’t have anything to say in the way of serious criticism. A couple of things that could be improved, sure, and hopefully they will be, but all in all, I think this is a spectacularly well-made sampled piano. You have to like the CFX-sound of course, because if not, this piano, which sounds “undeniably Yamaha”, will only have a limited appeal.

The bass end is easily the best I’ve ever encountered in any virtual piano. Quite amazing. Middle range is outstanding as well: crisp, punchy, detailed, and very expressive … It’s only in the higher octaves that the instrument, surprisingly, lacks some characteristic Yamaha brilliance and resonance.

And yes, it takes some careful tweaking to calibrate the instrument's response to your hardware and playing style. And even then, the results might still not be (or feel) entirely satisfactory. Which brings me to the first of the entries on my little list of things that, I feel, could be improved: with an instrument of this complexity and large dynamic scope, I think a more advanced set of parameters than is currently available (to configure the 300 Grand’s response and dynamic behaviour), should have been included. A simple curve or S-curve just isn’t enough. Having the option to adjust the low, mid and high registers separately, for instance, would greatly increase the musical powers of the instrument. I can imagine, to give an example, that some players might find the lower octaves currently a bit too overbearing with a certain type of playing or in certain styles of music. Or some might feel that the highest octaves don’t come through strong enough. A parameter with which to adjust such things — some piano libraries offer that option — would be nice.

And if another parameter could be added with which to reduce the dynamic range WITHOUT sacrificing any of the dynamic timbral range, that would be great too. In fact, I think this is the number 1 on my wishlist. After all, a piano in a DAW needn’t behave in the same way as a real one does : reduced dynamics — again: without any loss of timbral dynamic differentiation — is often highly desirable in a production. (The parameter I’m thinking of would be one that does the exact opposite of what the ‘Touch Response’ does now. If only that parameter could have negative values too, that would be perfect.)

The Grand 300 is also a library, I quickly realized, that can only be enjoyed to the full, or be done full justice, if you have a really high-quality keyboard controller. Because every incoming MIDI-nuance matters. I’ve tried it with a few keyboards, and only my Kawai MP7se gave me a good sense of actually playing a piano. The others much less so.

But a few more words about the parameters: there’s an awful lot of parameters here, I couldn’t help noticing, the practical and useful range of which amounts to only a very small fraction of the available range. For example: raise the Touch Response above 15% (even 10% is already quite high) and there’s a good chance that half of what you’re playing becomes inaudible. (I do wonder in what situation or with what crazy type of bizarre keyboard, a setting of 20% or higher is required.) And at least 60% of the available ranges for the Key Up and Pedal Noise are of no conventional use either as that results in excessively loud mayhem.

I only mention it because it also applies to the Sympathetic Resonances parameter: raise that anywhere above -10dB (you can go as high as +12dB if you like) and the piano playback gets infused with these strange, flute-y whisps of sound that, I guess, are supposed to simulate sympathetic resonances, but that aren’t in the least convincing. As an effect: yes, very much so, but as a believable emulation of what happens, resonance-wise, inside a real instrument: not really. Only to say: the Sympathetic Resonances in the 300 Grand aren’t exactly the feature that are going to bring home the gold medals for this library.

Another thing that sometimes distracts me just a tiny bit, is the fact that with some of the mic perspectives (or combinations thereof), the pedal down samples seem to contain a fraction more ‘space’ than the non-pedalled samples. Which can have as a result that if you switch from non-pedalled playing to pedalled, or the other way round, the instrument suddenly seems to acquire a slightly different spatial presence. It’s a minor thing, and it certainly doesn’t ruin the enjoyment, it’s just something I noticed a few times.

But let’s end with those gold medals I mentioned earlier. Because the 300 Grand deserves plenty of those, in my opinion. The sound (both timbrally and sonically) is truly stunning. (The recent Xperimenta was already quite impressive, this one is even a lot impressivier.) I’ve been annoying various people during the past couple of years with my deeply-felt opinion that the Synchron CFX is very badly sampled: well, this 300 Grand is the perfect example to illustrate, or substantiate, that opinion with: it’s got absolutely none of that harsh, clangy, ear-fatigueing timbre which makes the Synchron, in my view anyway, such an unpleasant instrument to play or work with, and yet it still has every bit as much expansive power, nuance, punch, authority and majesty as the Viennese instrument has. If you’re going to sample a CFX, this is, to my ears, how you do it.
Remarkably consistent timbre as well across the range. Usually, in a piano library, there are at least a dozen or so notes across the keyboard and in various dynamic ranges which stand out in some way or other from their neighbours (rarely a welcome thing in a piano), but with the 300 Grand, there are none that distract and only a very tiny few that stray, ever so slightly, from the overal consistency.

Other stand-out qualities: the 300 Grand’s mic perspectives provide an inexhaustible wealth of solutions for every possible spatial challenge; you can literally place this instrument in any sort of mix imagineable, from very intimate, in-your-face and dry to expansively and gorgeously spacious, without the need of any other additional reverb of spatialization tools. And the idea to have the room sampled from all the same perspectives as the instrument was recorded with, is nothing if not a stroke of genius.

The MasterFX section contains a very intelligent selection of highly useful processors, the Mixer’s very well laid out (save for one or two confusing details in the UI) and I suppose the Ambisonics page unlocks additional amazing surround powers and attractions but I haven’t been able to explore those since my studio only has standard stereo playback.

And then there’s a few small but quite useful features like, for instance, the Pre-Attack which, if set just right, can add significantly to the believability of the instrument. Very well done.

Except for the Sympathetic Resonances (and even those don’t cause problems if set at a moderate level), everything about this library says ‘Top Quality’. This is the new reference for Kontakt-based pristine, non-character grand piano emulation, as far as I’m concerned.

_


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## Scottyb (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> On the whole, I like this one very-very-very much. In fact, if all I had to take into account when sharing an opinion were my own likes and preferences, I wouldn’t have anything to say in the way of serious criticism. A couple of things that could be improved, sure, and hopefully they will be, but all in all, I think this is a spectacularly well-made sampled piano. You have to like the CFX-sound of course, because if not, this piano, which sounds “undeniably Yamaha”, will only have a limited appeal.
> 
> The bass end is easily the best I’ve ever encountered in any virtual piano. Quite amazing. Middle range is outstanding as well: crisp, punchy, detailed, and very expressive … It’s only in the higher octaves that the instrument, surprisingly, lacks some characteristic Yamaha brilliance and resonance.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to write this! Thoughtfully presented and answers a lot of my questions. Appreciate it!


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> On the whole, I like this one very-very-very much. In fact, if all I had to take into account when sharing an opinion were my own likes and preferences, I wouldn’t have anything to say in the way of serious criticism. A couple of things that could be improved, sure, and hopefully they will be, but all in all, I think this is a spectacularly well-made sampled piano. You have to like the CFX-sound of course, because if not, this piano, which sounds “undeniably Yamaha”, will only have a limited appeal.
> 
> The bass end is easily the best I’ve ever encountered in any virtual piano. Quite amazing. Middle range is outstanding as well: crisp, punchy, detailed, and very expressive … It’s only in the higher octaves that the instrument, surprisingly, lacks some characteristic Yamaha brilliance and resonance.
> 
> ...


You have echoed my thoughts about this instrument in just about every way. I do indeed wish that there were a way to manipulate the various registers beyond the Curve feature. My controller isn't the best, and I find the bass overwhelming and the treble requires a ball-peen hammer. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 2, 2022)

RMH said:


> That's right. Unfortunately, I didn't buy the compact version.😁


Buying the Compact version would not have saved you a dime because they just subtract the difference. I know it doesn't say anything about an intro price on the website, but take note that the other large scale piano libraries like this one are $249. This one might well increase in price after the intro period.


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## fan455 (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> Except for the Sympathetic Resonances (and even those don’t cause problems if set at a moderate level), everything about this library says ‘Top Quality’. This is the new reference for Kontakt-based pristine, non-character grand piano emulation, as far as I’m concerned.


You review is so honest and detailed! Regarding sympathetic resonance, it's one thing that I have found really tough to reproduce for piano sample libraries, while physical modelling pianos like pianoteq seem to do quite well. This is a big weakness compared to real pianos, which I realized after playing real Yamaha upright and grand pianos. It seems that 300 grand uses pedal-down samples for pedal-down sympathetic resonance and pedal-up samples for pedal-up sympathetic resonance. This could result in 3 problems:

- For pedal-down sympathetic resonance, multiple pedal-down samples could contain the sounds of the same sympathetic note (for example C2), which easily results in a muddy and wierd phase sound.

- For pedal-up sympathetic resonance, pedal-up samples with hammer attack are used as sympathetically vibrating notes, but for real pianos there're no hammer attack for sympathetic notes, obviously.

- As real pianos lack dampers for the highest notes, playing multiple pedal-up samples could hear, for example, multiple C6 sounds which is not realistic. But this problem seems ignorable, since piano treble notes decay fast.

By the way, for closer to realism sympathetic resonance programming, I would recommend piano sample library developers to use the harmonic-percussive source separation algorithm (not tonal-transient separation) to get the no-hammer-attack note sounds to create both pedal-up and pedal-down sympathetic resonance, ensuring only 1 no-hammer-attack sample playing per sympathetic note at a moment, at the cost of no more than 88 extra polyphonic voices. This not only makes continuous pedal (half-pedal) and repedal scripting easier and more realistic, but also creates a stereo image for sympathetic resonance that is consistent with the stereo image of the sampling. I posted an introduction in the freebie thread to the librosa hpss module that could implement it effectively. Sampling pedal-down is really unnecessary.


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## CeDur (Aug 3, 2022)

When I bought VSL CFX I thought I'm done and you guys are hyping me up again :D Yesterday I set Production Grand 2 side by side with VSL and reminded myself there is something so (I hate those words) exciting and inspiring with PV samples. 300 Grand is definitely more advanced library in terms of sound, I'm just wondering if I would like the tone. 

Regarding what re-peat wrote about pedal noises etc. I fully agree - but the way it's implemented seems to be similar to Production Grand 2 and Concert Grand from PV, so I wouldn't expect it to be 'fixed' in any way in 300.



fan455 said:


> By the way, for closer to realism sympathetic resonance programming, I would recommend piano sample library developers to use the harmonic-percussive source separation algorithm (not tonal-transient separation) to get the no-hammer-attack note sounds to create both pedal-up and pedal-down sympathetic resonance (...)


That seems like a nice idea. Still, I would like to see hybrid approach: samples + modelling for resonances. I've experimented with combining only PTQ symp resonance with regular sample-based piano libraries, but it's so unconvinient to configure. It's a shame there is no 'symathetic resonance only' separate VST on the market. I would buy it with no hesitation.


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## Fizzlewig (Aug 3, 2022)

Can someone else verify this please. If pre-Attack is set and the 'Live' button is on I'm having timing issues when repeatingly striking the C2 note. It is like it's not triggering correctly, and it 'out of time'. Also evident when playing C1 and C2 as octaves. I know my timing is not perfect but I ain't that bad! If it needs reporting I will, but wanted to check here first etc.


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## CeDur (Aug 3, 2022)

re-peat said:


> And if another parameter could be added with which to reduce the dynamic range WITHOUT sacrificing any of the dynamic timbral range, that would be great too. In fact, I think this is the number 1 on my wishlist. After all, a piano in a DAW needn’t behave in the same way as a real one does : reduced dynamics — again: without any loss of timbral dynamic differentiation — is often highly desirable in a production. (The parameter I’m thinking of would be one that does the exact opposite of what the ‘Touch Response’ does now. If only that parameter could have negative values too, that would be perfect.)


My experience based on other PV piano libraries: 'touch response' parameter does exactly what you're writing you want it to do: changing only the (volume) dynamic range, not timbre. I've checked it in Kontakt editing pages with previous libraries and the same sample was triggered for given velocity, no matter what the 'touch response' setting was, just with different volume.

You've also mentioned it would be nice to have more complex velocity editor - why not try this little simple plugin: https://freevstplugins.net/midicurve/ I almost always use it instead of those built into libraries. So much more convenient.



Fizzlewig said:


> Can someone else verify this please. If pre-Attack is set and the 'Live' button is on I'm having timing issues when repeatingly striking the C2 note. It is like it's not triggering correctly, and it 'out of time'. Also evident when playing C1 and C2 as octaves. I know my timing is not perfect but I ain't that bad! If it needs reporting I will, but wanted to check here first etc.


Pre-attack on casues huge latency and is not recommended for live playing. 'Live' button makes it a little bit more tolerable, but still - latency is not on pair with pre-attack turned off at all. I remember a bug from one of earlier PV pianos, where if you turned on and off pre-attack and then live, the GUI was not representing what's actually set. You could try restarting Kontakt and see if anything changed, but still - using pre-attack will increase latency and cause timing issues when playing.


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## Fizzlewig (Aug 3, 2022)

CeDur said:


> My experience based on other PV piano libraries: 'touch response' parameter does exactly what you're writing you want it to do: changing only the (volume) dynamic range, not timbre. I've checked it in Kontakt editing pages with previous libraries and the same sample was triggered for given velocity, no matter what the 'touch response' setting was, just with different volume.
> 
> You've also mentioned it would be nice to have more complex velocity editor - why not try this little simple plugin: https://freevstplugins.net/midicurve/ I almost always use it instead of those built into libraries. So much more convenient.
> 
> ...


It's consistent with just c2 being played at a soft dynamic say on a repeated 8th note pattern. etc Other pitches seem fine. Yes I'm aware of the latency introduced, experimenting at the moment.


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## RMH (Aug 3, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Buying the Compact version would not have saved you a dime because they just subtract the difference. I know it doesn't say anything about an intro price on the website, but take note that the other large scale piano libraries like this one are $249. This one might well increase in price after the intro period.


My favorite Vilabs pianos are priced at about $100 at a discount. Of course, I have no regrets because I bought it cheaply through a deal except for the upright piano.

It's similar to the price of those pianos. The problem is that they didn't see exactly the initial price and when it was due. Maybe I can't find it.

Does your think I should buy this piano?


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## RMH (Aug 3, 2022)

Oh, I just put in an inquiry email because I was curious, and I got this answer.


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## filipjonathan (Aug 3, 2022)

Aggressively?


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## RMH (Aug 3, 2022)

filipjonathan said:


> Aggressively?


That's what they say 🤣


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## CeDur (Aug 3, 2022)

I think 150$ for such a piano library that runs in free Kontak Player is a very good price.

PS. Just to add a little context: I bought Kontakt Full some time ago just to be able to use some nice piano VIs requiring it and I never use other Kontakt package instruments and rarely use its scripting features (usually to fix some pianos glitches for myself).


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## Mike Stone (Aug 3, 2022)

I've been using Garritan CFX for years now, and every time I've tried something different, I keep going back to Garritan CFX. Being a piano player of both classical and jazz, I'm fairly picky about piano libraries. It's often hard to find a satisfactory dynamic curve and keyboard response (even using a good stage piano like Yamaha CP88.)

For pianists having experience with both CFX libraries, how would you compare the two - especially in terms of playability and velocity response?

Anyone? Thanks!


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## RMH (Aug 3, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> I see people have written quite extensively about the library already, but I'm still a bit on the fence.
> 
> I've been using Garritan CFX for years now, and every time I've tried something different for my main piano, I've ended going back again to Garritan CFX. For me it's about the outstanding focused and well-defined sound, and the playability. Being a piano player, doing both classical and jazz, I'm fairly picky about piano libraries, often not being able to find a satisfactory dynamic curve and response. (I use a Yamaha CP88 as a midi controller btw.)
> 
> ...


Is there a reason why you use CFX even though you already own CP88?


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## Mike Stone (Aug 3, 2022)

RMH said:


> Is there a reason why you use CFX even though you already own CP88?


I bought it as a midi controller for my work in Logic Pro. In my experience, most regular midi controllers have subpar keyboard actions with uneven dynamic response across the different keys.


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## RMH (Aug 3, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> I bought it as a midi controller for my work in Logic Pro. In my experience, most regular midi controllers have subpar keyboard actions with uneven dynamic response across the different keys.


Aha, that's why. I kind of understand.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 3, 2022)

RMH said:


> That's what they say 🤣





filipjonathan said:


> Aggressively?


It is priced pretty darned aggressively if you take the competition to be the VSL pianos (esp full mic versions).

Anyone have a demo of a very close, dry, warm sound?


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## filipjonathan (Aug 3, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> It is priced pretty darned aggressively if you take the competition to be the VSL pianos (esp full mic versions).
> 
> Anyone have a demo of a very close, dry, warm sound?


No, I agree, the price is very good for a product like this.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 3, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> It is priced pretty darned aggressively if you take the competition to be the VSL pianos (esp full mic versions).
> 
> Anyone have a demo of a very close, dry, warm sound?


When you consider that the VSL pianos are $550+/-, this piano is a steal. It is also a better piano. The Garritan CFX, which I prefer to any of the VSL pianos, is $200, and I like the 300 Grand more. The only piano that competes with the 300 Grand is the Signature Grand at $49; for most DAW needs, it is the most bang for your buck out there, but it pales in comparison to the 300 in all ways except price.

I am convinced that the 300 is the best piano I own.


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## sostenuto (Aug 3, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> When you consider that the VSL pianos are $550+/-, this piano is a steal. It is also a better piano. The Garritan CFX, which I prefer to any of the VSL pianos, is $200, and I like the 300 Grand more. The only piano that competes with the 300 Grand is the Signature Grand at $49; for most DAW needs, it is the most bang for your buck out there, but it pales in comparison to the 300 in all ways except price.
> 
> I am convinced that the 300 is the best piano I own.


THX for this. May push purchase now, in spite of large set of Grand Piano VI(s) _ apart from VSL.
Will take advantage of credit for 300 Compact _ _tho time involved my be more than #29._ ☹️


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 3, 2022)

I just received my $59 refund, so it took about 6 days. No big deal really, though I am puzzled that they did it this way. I guess maybe this was easier than setting up a database with your paid price and deducting that at checkout.


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## Scottyb (Aug 3, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> When you consider that the VSL pianos are $550+/-, this piano is a steal. It is also a better piano. The Garritan CFX, which I prefer to any of the VSL pianos, is $200, and I like the 300 Grand more. The only piano that competes with the 300 Grand is the Signature Grand at $49; for most DAW needs, it is the most bang for your buck out there, but it pales in comparison to the 300 in all ways except price.
> 
> I am convinced that the 300 is the best piano I own.


Those are pretty strong words! Glad you like it so much and hope to add it to my collection soon!


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 3, 2022)

Scottyb said:


> Those are pretty strong words! Glad you like it so much and hope to add it to my collection soon!


They are strong words, but it is just opinion. Like @re-peat, I don't care for the VSL pianos. I might well like them better were the price point more acceptable. I might change my mind in three months time. I once loved the Ravenscroft 275, and then I began to tire of its tone. I never really tired of the Garritan CFX, however, and I don't think that I will tire of the 300 either. But I prefer that Yamaha sound. (I like Kawais, too.) I much prefer the Japanese sound to Steinway or Bösendorfer.


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## Geoff Grace (Aug 3, 2022)

I find that Steinway’s sound is all over the map. I’ve never experienced anything that could rival the best Steinways I’ve played; but unfortunately, that sound is rare in Steinways too.

Best,

Geoff


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## Mike Stone (Aug 3, 2022)

I'm seriously considering buying the 300 Grand library (full version). How does it compare performance wise to Garritan CFX (less/more demanding on CPU)? Seems like a rather complex library...

Is also the dynamic curve and playability as good as Garritan CFX?

Thanks!


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 3, 2022)

Geoff Grace said:


> I find that Steinway’s sound is all over the map. I’ve never experienced anything that could rival the best Steinways I’ve played; but unfortunately, that sound is rare in Steinways too.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


I couldn't agree more. Steinway has made some of the best pianos I have ever played and some of the worst. The quality is very inconsistent.


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## CGR (Aug 3, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I couldn't agree more. Steinway has made some of the best pianos I have ever played and some of the worst. The quality is very inconsistent.


The inconsistency seems to be more of an issue with the New York Steinways. They've had a checkered history in terms of ownership and trying different manufacturing techniques:

_*Wikipedia*: In 1962, the Queens Steinway factory introduced the Permafree action for its grand pianos, using Teflon parts in place of cloth bushings. The Teflon was intended to withstand wear and humidity changes better than cloth. The Teflon bushings resulted in certain unforeseen problems mainly during changes in weather; they were discontinued in 1983. The Hamburg Steinway factory never implemented the Teflon bushings in its pianos._

A few piano technicians I've dealt with are of the opinion that the Hamburg Steinways are generally better built and of a higher standard of finish than the New York Steinways.

_*Wikipedia*: Larry Fine was invited by Steinway officials to tour the Queens factory to see some of the manufacturing changes. Fine wrote in his Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer of Spring 2011 that the changes have improved the quality of Queens Steinway pianos, but that Hamburg Steinway pianos are still of a higher quality than Queens Steinway pianos._


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## moon (Aug 3, 2022)

CGR said:


> The inconsistency seems to be more of an issue with the New York Steinways. They've had a checkered history in terms of ownership and trying different manufacturing techniques:
> 
> _*Wikipedia*: In 1962, the Queens Steinway factory introduced the Permafree action for its grand pianos, using Teflon parts in place of cloth bushings. The Teflon was intended to withstand wear and humidity changes better than cloth. The Teflon bushings resulted in certain unforeseen problems mainly during changes in weather; they were discontinued in 1983. The Hamburg Steinway factory never implemented the Teflon bushings in its pianos._
> 
> ...


I seem to recall that Steinway is one of, if not the only, to make their own action, and that this is a huge part of the inconsistency of their pianos.


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## CGR (Aug 3, 2022)

moon said:


> I seem to recall that Steinway is one of, if not the only, to make their own action, and that this is a huge part of the inconsistency of their pianos.


I know Hamburg Steinways use Steinway designed & patented Renner actions. I think New York make their own but not sure. I've played a New York and Hamburg Steinway B side by side in a showroom and the difference was remarkable (in favour of the Hamburg).


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## pianistje (Aug 3, 2022)

Janine Jansen a famous Dutch violinist once commented on her Stradivarius violin,...that it took her a year to discover a certain expressive layer she didn´t know her violin was capable of. 
As a professional piano tuner i have to say that most pianist ,even top pianists, know little about actions and the actual physics behind it. What is possible and what is not and why it behaves in a certain way.

Most of them are after instant gratification and want their actions to be almost perfect instantly with a reference piano i can only guess about.
I understand that you want the grand piano to be ´easy access´ right before a concert, but some actions take a whole lot longer to appreciate what´s possible and what´s not.
It´s the downside of being forced to use the available grand piano that has to excel within a couple of hours when the concert starts. Luckily for them most new modern grands have super easy accessible actions, but also a bit superficial if you ask me.

Smart thing would be like Horowitz did and also toured with his own Steinway calibrated to his style of playing.

I wonder if there are pianists out there with similar experiences like Janine Jansen. That it´s worthwhile to explore your piano for longer than a couple of hours or days to draw any conclusions.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 3, 2022)

CGR said:


> The inconsistency seems to be more of an issue with the New York Steinways. They've had a checkered history in terms of ownership and trying different manufacturing techniques:
> 
> _*Wikipedia*: In 1962, the Queens Steinway factory introduced the Permafree action for its grand pianos, using Teflon parts in place of cloth bushings. The Teflon was intended to withstand wear and humidity changes better than cloth. The Teflon bushings resulted in certain unforeseen problems mainly during changes in weather; they were discontinued in 1983. The Hamburg Steinway factory never implemented the Teflon bushings in its pianos._
> 
> ...


Yes, I am aware of the sorted history of the New York Steinways. In the 1980s, my university had two Model Ds from the mid 70s that were just junk. But even after that, I had more than a few bad experiences with new Steinways—always in a university setting. Through various programs, universities could acquire pianos with an educational discount, and I have often wondered if Steinway’s dogs get allocated for this program.

I have played a number of very nice Hamburg Steinways, but they’re not that common in the states for obvious reasons. The general consensus has always been that they’re better than their New York counterparts.


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## sostenuto (Aug 3, 2022)

CGR said:


> I know Hamburg Steinways use Steinway designed & patented Renner actions. I think New York make their own but not sure. I've played a New York and Hamburg Steinway B side by side in a showroom and the difference was remarkable (in favour of the Hamburg).


mid-1980's _ multiple visits to Boston, MA Steinway showrooms. Large 2nd floor range of grands, many 'D(s)'. Somewhat naive then, yet quite surprised at notable variation while auditioning several. No knowledge at all whether NY, Hamburg, or both. Also checked attorney's new D, for sale, and heard his frustrations over break-in period. 
Now wondering about personal Grotrian-Steinweg (1985) _ in terms of manufacture site. Thinking it was not Hamburg, but Grotrian's own facility ? Renner action which my valued technician maintained so impressively.


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## Simeon (Aug 4, 2022)

Hello everyone.
I just got off a Skype call with Jason (the developer at Production Voices).
I plan to go live Friday around 4:30 PM EST to have him on the channel.
It was an honor to spend a little time with him just now and I look forward to hearing more from him about how the 300 Grand came to be.

Since we will be live, you will be able to ask questions, which will be a lot of fun.
I will also be selecting the winner of the 300 Grand giveaway so make sure you have entered using the link in the videos. There also might be other surprises along the way so you do not want to miss it.

I will post more details once the live stream has been scheduled.

Joyfully!
Simeon


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## Simeon (Aug 4, 2022)

So here we go!
I look forward to seeing everyone Friday, it should be a lot of fun.


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## johngrant (Aug 4, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> When you consider that the VSL pianos are $550+/-, this piano is a steal. It is also a better piano. The Garritan CFX, which I prefer to any of the VSL pianos, is $200, and I like the 300 Grand more. The only piano that competes with the 300 Grand is the Signature Grand at $49; for most DAW needs, it is the most bang for your buck out there, but it pales in comparison to the 300 in all ways except price.
> 
> I am convinced that the 300 is the best piano I own.


That's a strong endorsement. I've played with MANY vsts, and it always comes down to 3 determinants: live "playability" or "feel" (using decent headphones); NON-live, recorded, end-result, "heard through my sound system" realism; the TYPE of music the VST is being used for.

I find the hardest test for any piano vst is Baroque keyboard music. Don't ask me to justify that proposition. Entirely subjective. 

Soooo... for a classical nerd like me, whose sole interest is in the RECORDED END-RESULT, my experience has been that only 2 vsts satisfy: the (much-hated) Zimmer Steinway, and the amazing 50 dollar piano vst that I've raved about here before (forget the name). 

Jason hasn't provided us with any baroque stuff (which is completely understandable), but here's my sort-of "desired" sound:


Production Voices does great stuff. But does the 300 Grand "work" or "convince" as a high end recorded sound? Is it INDISTINGUISHABLE from a well-recorded Yammy? 

What's the verdict on that score?


----------



## Simeon (Aug 4, 2022)

johngrant said:


> That's a strong endorsement. I've played with MANY vsts, and it always comes down to 3 determinants: live "playability" or "feel" (using decent headphones); NON-live, recorded, end-result, "heard through my sound system" realism; the TYPE of music the VST is being used for.
> 
> I find the hardest test for any piano vst is Baroque keyboard music. Don't ask me to justify that proposition. Entirely subjective.
> 
> ...



John,
listening to this now, WoW, well done.
I can see why this type of piece would be like an acid test of sorts, as there is nowhere to hide. You have continuous repetitions and movement, fluid and staccato, a wide range of dynamics, and it goes on.

How was this piece captured, I would love to hear more details.
Even better if there was a MIDI file, I could possibly render it with some of the various mic positions.

I love hearing new things that challenge and inspire.
Thanks so much for sharing your insight and gift with us.
(I just kept your playlist going 🤓)

Joyfully!
Simeon


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 4, 2022)

johngrant said:


> That's a strong endorsement. I've played with MANY vsts, and it always comes down to 3 determinants: live "playability" or "feel" (using decent headphones); NON-live, recorded, end-result, "heard through my sound system" realism; the TYPE of music the VST is being used for.
> 
> I find the hardest test for any piano vst is Baroque keyboard music. Don't ask me to justify that proposition. Entirely subjective.
> 
> ...



I don’t have a particularly fancy controller (Roland A-88), but in its current state, I find the playability lacking. I will be the first to admit that this might say more about my controller than the 300. I need more control over the velocity curve, and I have been communicating with Jason about that. 

I did not notice @Simeon experiencing this during his playthru. So I am hesitant to blame the 300. Within a DAW, this is easy to overcome, but for live playing, I find the upper register too weak. Ordinarily, I would expect a Yamaha to be quite strident in that upper register. This one is not.


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## johngrant (Aug 4, 2022)

Simeon said:


> John,
> listening to this now, WoW, well done.
> I can see why this type of piece would be like an acid test of sorts, as there is nowhere to hide. You have continuous repetitions and movement, fluid and staccato, a wide range of dynamics, and it goes on.
> 
> ...


Yikes. I don't provide midi files. But heck there's PLENTY out there that will fill the bill. I'd love it if Jason could do more "classical" stuff. But that's not the market he's MAINLY interested in, and that makes total sense. 

That particular Scarlatti Sonata is a crowd-pleaser. I happen to know the piece incredibly well, as I've played it since I was 16 (which is a LONG time ago). It's not hard at all, except if you want to play it at Martha Argerich speeds, or even faster, which some pianists actually do. So I play it in (recording in MIDI obviously) for "feel." But then I make ALL KINDS of "aesthetic" and "musical" alterations afterwards to produce the interpretation that is "in my mind" as opposed to "under my fingers." (Two totally different things.)

The piece is what I'd call a "cheat," in the sense that it's captivating and (therefore) even a BAD vst will sound good with it. Now take good old JSB (Johann Sebastian Bach). His Well-tempered Clavier is VERY hard on VSTs. That's what I call a super-hard test. Hard to get a decent (well-played) MIDI file and hard to make a decent MIDI file actually sound decent. So you input the prelude or fugue yourself and spend YEARS trying to get something decent out of it. No picnic. (Chopin, for example, is so much easier.)

Some folks have employed Bill Evans material as a test. Here again, that can be a "cheat." His music is so damn good that almost ANY piano vst can be made to sound "great" with his material.

That's the problem (or at least one problem) with demos. A really good MIDI file (tailored perfectly to the vst) will suck you in.


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## fan455 (Aug 4, 2022)

johngrant said:


> Yikes. I don't provide midi files. But heck there's PLENTY out there that will fill the bill. I'd love it if Jason could do more "classical" stuff. But that's not the market he's MAINLY interested in, and that makes total sense.
> 
> That particular Scarlatti Sonata is a crowd-pleaser. I happen to know the piece incredibly well, as I've played it since I was 16 (which is a LONG time ago). It's not hard at all, except if you want to play it at Martha Argerich speeds, or even faster, which some pianists actually do. So I play it in (recording in MIDI obviously) for "feel." But then I make ALL KINDS of "aesthetic" and "musical" alterations afterwards to produce the interpretation that is "in my mind" as opposed to "under my fingers." (Two totally different things.)
> 
> ...


I feel similar to you. Many piano vsts sound nice playing jazz, cinematic or pop, but frustrating to me in case of classical music. I have listened to a lot of classical piano music and have impressions on the top grand pianos in the world like Steinway D and Yamaha CFX. And the problems I think for piano vsts could be dynamic (the biggest issue), the spacial feel, sympathetic resonance (both pedal up and down) and una corda. None of the sampled pianos I know can solve them well. VSL's sampling pianos with built-in player systems or robots is the best solution I know, but Synchron pianos' sympathetic resonance and tuning are disappointing.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 5, 2022)

I want to give a slight update on my thoughts about the 300 Grand. Since getting it, I had been having some trouble with the upper register. I was really having to beat my controller to get much sound, and even then, the response was not as strident as I would have liked. Suddenly today, that problem inexplicably went away. I don't know whether it was a bug in my controller, computer, or the software. But at this point, I find it to be 100% playable. It is well worth mentioning, however, that the 300 will only be as good as your controller. I am sure with a VPC1 this piano would be incredible. @Simeon is using an SL88, and that seemed to handle it pretty well, too. My Roland A-88 is definitely lacking.

If you're interested in this piano or just curious, it is well worth watching Simeon's interview with Jason.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I want to give a slight update on my thoughts about the 300 Grand. Since getting it, I had been having some trouble with the upper register. I was really having to beat my controller to get much sound, and even then, the response was not as strident as I would have liked. Suddenly today, that problem inexplicably went away. I don't know whether it was a bug in my controller, computer, or the software. But at this point, I find it to be 100% playable. It is well worth mentioning, however, that the 300 will only be as good as your controller. I am sure with a VPC1 this piano would be incredible. @Simeon is using an SL88, and that seemed to handle it pretty well, too. My Roland A-88 is definitely lacking.
> 
> If you're interested in this piano or just curious, it is well worth watching Simeon's interview with Jason.



Intersting. I bought a Roland A-88, but had constant issues with double triggering keys. After the third unit I gave up, and got a Yamaha CP88 instead - highly recommended. The CP88 keyboard action is very fast and has an even response across the keyboard, and is fairly silent too. If you play very slow and soft, you'll notice the lack of escapement, but otherwise fine. 300 Grand seems like a good alternative to Garritan CFX, probably end up buying myself too.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 5, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Intersting. I bought a Roland A-88, but had constant issues with double triggering keys. After the third unit I gave up, and got a Yamaha CP88 instead - highly recommended. The CP88 keyboard action is very fast and has an even response across the keyboard, and is fairly silent too. If you play very slow and soft, you'll notice the lack of escapement, but otherwise fine. 300 Grand seems like a good alternative to Garritan CFX, probably end up buying myself too.


I have been unhappy with the A-88 since I got it.


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## CeDur (Aug 6, 2022)

You guys are talking about the new one, mark II A-88 MK? It uses PHA4 Standard action, the same is in FP10/30/60/RD88. Mine is getting a hard beating for around 3 years now and except being a bit slow it's the most non-problematic digital piano action I've ever had (and I had Kawais, Casios, Dexibels, Korgs and more). I was thinking about changing FP10 to A88 just because more MIDI options.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 6, 2022)

CeDur said:


> You guys are talking about the new one, mark II A-88 MK? It uses PHA4 Standard action, the same is in FP10/30/60/RD88. Mine is getting a hard beating for around 3 years now and except being a bit slow it's the most non-problematic digital piano action I've ever had (and I had Kawais, Casios, Dexibels, Korgs and more). I was thinking about changing FP10 to A88 just because more MIDI options.


Yes, I was talking about new one (mark II). The key actions is good, not great. A bit sluggish (ie. slow release) for my taste. I assume the double triggering issue is fixed, or maybe it was a bad batch. IMO CP88 has a better/quicker action, but A-88 is also quite a bit less expensive.


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## davinwv (Aug 6, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Yes, I was talking about new one (mark II). The key actions is good, not great. A bit sluggish (ie. slow release) for my taste. I assume the double triggering issue is fixed, or maybe it was a bad batch. IMO CP88 has a better/quicker action, but A-88 is also quite a bit less expensive.


Yamaha just needs to make a controller with the CP88 action - an updated KX8/KX88.


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## CeDur (Aug 6, 2022)

I personally prefer Roland's PHA4 over Kawai RHIII, Korg RH3, Fatar TP40L, Yamaha NWX and NW-GH and all I've ever tried from Casio - so each to their own  I would consider Roland PHA50 or Kawai GFIII and upgrade, but cheapest digital with those actions is 4x more expensive than FP10.


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## davinwv (Aug 6, 2022)

So, what are everyone's lastest impressions on the 300 Grand now that you have been living with it for a little while longer?


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## Mike Stone (Aug 6, 2022)

The PHA-50 action in Roland RD-2000 does have the escapement feature, giving it a bit more realistic feel for nuanced classical playing. However RD-2000 is huge and expensive, vs. CP88 which is plenty good enough and more compact. Obviously Kawai VPC-1 (in terms of midi controllers) is the one to beat, for most realistic piano action.

If a quick yet precise piano action is a priority, for a more general purpose keyboard controller, CP88 fits the bill very nicely IMO. Anyways, back to 300 grand..


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## Toroaspu (Aug 12, 2022)

Lucky enough to test the 300 Grand, awesome sound...

I found the default volume level from Kontakt is way too low... had to move the volume completely to the right, to the max... am I missing something?


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## Carson (Aug 12, 2022)

davinwv said:


> Yamaha just needs to make a controller with the CP88 action - an updated KX8/KX88.


YC88 is great - aside from very slick “slippery” black keys. Boggles my mind they moved forward with how slick they are.


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## davinwv (Aug 12, 2022)

Carson said:


> YC88 is great - aside from very slick “slippery” black keys. Boggles my mind they moved forward with how slick they are.


I mean a controller only. I would never use the onboard sounds.


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## Carson (Aug 12, 2022)

davinwv said:


> I mean a controller only. I would never use the onboard sounds.


Ah gotcha. I just use the YC88 as a controller - I never use the on board sounds. Just like the way it plays.


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## davinwv (Aug 12, 2022)

Carson said:


> Ah gotcha. I just use the YC88 as a controller - I never use the on board sounds. Just like the way it plays.


Is there a big difference in the actions between the CP88 and the YC88 other than the slippery sharps on the latter? I've played the CP88 in rehearsal spaces and liked its action a lot.

I use a Studioligic SL88 Grand at home and on gigs with an all software rig.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 12, 2022)

davinwv said:


> Is there a big difference in the actions between the CP88 and the YC88 other than the slippery sharps on the latter? I've played the CP88 in rehearsal spaces and liked its action a lot.
> 
> I use a Studioligic SL88 Grand at home and on gigs with an all software rig.


How do you like the SL88?


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## Carson (Aug 12, 2022)

davinwv said:


> Is there a big difference in the actions between the CP88 and the YC88 other than the slippery sharps on the latter? I've played the CP88 in rehearsal spaces and liked its action a lot.
> 
> I use a Studioligic SL88 Grand at home and on gigs with an all software rig.


I misread. I thought you were referring to the CP4, which I prefer over the YC.

YC88 and CP88 I believe are practically identical in terms of keys/action


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## Mike McCarthy (Aug 12, 2022)

Would love to hear more feedback about 300 Grand.

Re-peat's highly complimentary review was an eye-opener (we all know that he doesn't mince words) - which tells me that this is a library that should be taken seriously.

But after an initial flurry of interest this thread seemed to die - why?

Has anyone found anything they don't like about this piano?

Is there enough "character" in the unisons or is it for classical only? (demos suggest both).

Do the pedal-down samples capture the full resonance/decay in the crucial highest 2 octaves?

How well does the re-pedaling work in practice?

Does it sit well in a dense mix - or more suited to solo work?

Would be keen to hear if Re-peat (and others) are still happy after a few weeks of further scrutiny.


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## davinwv (Aug 12, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> How do you like the SL88?


I like it a lot, but I'm always looking for the next, better thing. Repetitions and key rebound feel a bit sluggish on it.

I hope Studioligic puts the improved wood action from its new Numa X-Piano GT into a controller soon!


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## davinwv (Aug 12, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Would love to hear more feedback about 300 Grand.
> 
> Re-peat's highly complimentary review was an eye-opener (we all know that he doesn't mince words) - which tells me that this is a library that should be taken seriously.
> 
> ...


I would also like to get this thread back on topic (although I've done my fair share of derailing it) and hear some more impressions.

If you haven't watched @Simeon's interview with the developer, I suggest you do so.

I'm hoping to pick up the 300 Grand in the next few weeks.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 12, 2022)

davinwv said:


> I would also like to get this thread back on topic (although I've done my fair share of derailing it) and hear some more impressions.
> 
> If you haven't watched @Simeon's interview with the developer, I suggest you do so.
> 
> I'm hoping to pick up the 300 Grand in the next few weeks.


I was a little disappointed myself that this thread seemed to die so quickly. If this had been a new VSL piano, folks would have blathered endlessly, and in my opinion, it is better than those. Admittedly, I've only ever played with the Bösendorfer, but I think that it is generally the most highly regarded. The most basic version of the VSL pianos with very limited mics costs more than the 300, which gives you eight mics plus Ambisonics. If you like the Yamaha sound, this thing is a no brainer.


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## Mike McCarthy (Aug 12, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> If you like the Yamaha sound, this thing is a no brainer.


I think this is what it is coming down to - for me anyway.

Trouble is, I'm having difficulty deciding exactly what a "Yamaha" sound actually is these days. It used to be a bright, cutting sound that was always recommended for pop/rock mixes - but the Garritan SFX and 300 Grand SFX seem to have shown another, warmer side to this reputation. On the other hand, Steinway seems to still have this almost mythological "holy grail" reputation for having an harmonically richer sound that makes it the "better" piano - which seems to be supported by the impression that Steinways are the preferred option for concert pianists performing the most demanding pieces imaginable.

The Garritan SFX is highly playable and very even as far as timbral response across the velocity layers is concerned. Surprisingly though, quite a lot of "a bit boring", "sterile" comments to be found. How does 300 Grand compare?

And how much tonal change occurs between "soft & gentle" and "growly & bright" layers?

My Hammersmith Steinway at low velocities sounds like "higher-velocities-playing-softly" - despite its high number of velocity layers. (and yes I've tried all sorts of velocity scaling with VelPro).


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## Mike Stone (Aug 13, 2022)

Carson said:


> I misread. I thought you were referring to the CP4, which I prefer over the YC.
> 
> YC88 and CP88 I believe are practically identical in terms of keys/action


I haven't played the YC88, but I've never noticed an issue with slippery black keys on the CP88, in fact the black key-tops have an uneven wood-like texture to them.

Btw. has anyone here been successful communicating with Production Voices? I sent a request for an educational discount on their 300 Grand via their online form 10 days ago, but haven't gotten a reply yet.


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## davinwv (Aug 13, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Btw. has anyone here been successful communicating with Production Voices? I sent a request for an educational discount on their 300 Grand via their online form 10 days ago, but haven't gotten a reply yet.


Check your spam folder. Gmail sent a reply from Production Voices to my question there.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 13, 2022)

davinwv said:


> Check your spam folder. Gmail sent a reply from Production Voices to my question there.


Thanks. I used my private email this time, and got a reply very quickly. Seems like my work email “disappeared” the first reply. Will give my thoughts, when I’ve tested the library.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 13, 2022)

OK, been playing around with the 300 Grand for a few hours now, and so far impressions are very good. IMO 300 Grand is verging on being overly complex, although you get lots of options over the sound character. Still, I prefer having fewer options, with a sound that "just works" (like in Garritan CFX).

After a while, I managed to tweak a sound that's fairly close to the sound profile of Garritan CFX, my favorite library. Overall, 300 Grand is probably the best sounding piano library I've used so far (and I've tried quite a few), with the possible exception of Garritan CFX. I still need to spend more time with 300 Grand, before making a final judgement.

My main gripe with 300 Grand so far, is that you can only tweak the strength (-100% to 100%) of two predefined velocity curves (regular and S-curve). With Garritan CFX, there are 4 points you can manipulate, to get more control of the different areas of the velocity response. That makes a huge difference, for matching the piano library with whatever piano controller you might have, esp. for smoother transitions between the harder velocities. So far, I actually prefer the playability of the slimmed-down 22 velocity layer version vs. the full version, as the fff layers don't "bark" as much.

So, it's a definite "recommend" from me, although I hope Production Voices will implement a more flexible velocity curve (like in Garritan CFX) in a future update, for more control - especially over the ff-fff layers.


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## Simeon (Aug 13, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> OK, been playing around with the 300 Grand for a few hours now, and so far impressions are very good. IMO 300 Grand is verging on being overly complex, although you get lots of options over the sound character. Still, I prefer having fewer options, with a sound that "just works" (like in Garritan CFX).
> 
> After a while, I managed to tweak a sound that got fairly close to the sound profile of Garritan CFX, my favorite librar). Overall, 300 Grand is probably the best sounding piano library I've used so far (and I've tried quite a few), with the possible exception of Garritan CFX. I still need to spend more time with 300 Grand, before making a final judgement.
> 
> ...


Mike,
During some of my pre-interview time with Jason, I brought up the area of having a velocity editor that will allow you to do more detailed customization of the velocity values on a per-note basis. My takeaway was that this was something we might see in a future update. 

It was such a pleasure to spend that one-on-one time with Jason and find a deeper appreciation for what is involved to bring these instruments to life.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 13, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> OK, been playing around with the 300 Grand for a few hours now, and so far impressions are very good. IMO 300 Grand is verging on being overly complex, although you get lots of options over the sound character. Still, I prefer having fewer options, with a sound that "just works" (like in Garritan CFX).
> 
> After a while, I managed to tweak a sound that got fairly close to the sound profile of Garritan CFX, my favorite librar). Overall, 300 Grand is probably the best sounding piano library I've used so far (and I've tried quite a few), with the possible exception of Garritan CFX. I still need to spend more time with 300 Grand, before making a final judgement.
> 
> ...


Your observations line up perfectly with mine in most all ways. I think that Jason is going to give us additional controls over the velocity curve. I have communicated with him about it. Oddly, I found the 22v easier to play as well. I am assuming that this reflects a limitation of my controller. I agree about the complexity of it. I'd like to just eat my sandwich and not have to make it first.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 13, 2022)

Good to hear that additional velocity curve controls are being considered, that's the only thing I'm really missing here. Overall, this is a very impressive library, and the price is also quite fair.


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## jdg78 (Aug 13, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> OK, been playing around with the 300 Grand for a few hours now, and so far impressions are very good. IMO 300 Grand is verging on being overly complex, although you get lots of options over the sound character. Still, I prefer having fewer options, with a sound that "just works" (like in Garritan CFX).
> 
> After a while, I managed to tweak a sound that's fairly close to the sound profile of Garritan CFX, my favorite library. Overall, 300 Grand is probably the best sounding piano library I've used so far (and I've tried quite a few), with the possible exception of Garritan CFX. I still need to spend more time with 300 Grand, before making a final judgement.
> 
> ...



Re: the velocity curve, I believe Kontakt player has a built in velocity curve editor so you should be able to customize it there if the one in the instrument UI isn’t sufficient. Click on KSP - Preset - Factory - Transform - Change Velocity.

That being said, this instrument does seem very impressive, but having recently acquired both the VSL Steinway and Bosendorfer Imperial, it would have to be really amazing in both playability and sampling quality to equal or best either of these. I am fairly intrigued though.


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## Mike McCarthy (Aug 13, 2022)

VelPro solves this problem - highly recommend it.





VelPro: Springbeats MIDI Velocity Curve Changer for Windows® and Mac


Download Springbeats VelPro for Windows® and Mac. Change MIDI velocity curves to make notes coming from your MIDI controller sound better.




springbeats.com





Works on a per-note basis as well.


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## Brittany Fraser (Aug 14, 2022)

CeDur said:


> Я великий шанувальник PV Production Grand і щойно отримав електронний лист про випуск 300 Grand Compact. Більшість демонстраційних прикладів звучать досить сухо і яскраво, але цей звучить дуже добре
> 
> 
> 
> які ваші думки



I agree. This is really perfect.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 14, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> VelPro solves this problem - highly recommend it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's an interesting piece of software, didn't know about that one. However, afaik it only works globally in your DAW. It would be better to also have the option to use this as a regular plugin on a per-channel basis, and it’s still an external filter working outside the piano library. So it's not a real substitute for more velocity control within the 300 Grand library itself.


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## re-peat (Aug 14, 2022)

I don’t see how an external midi transformer (like Springbeats' VelPro or something similar) can help to make the 300Grand respond more to one’s liking. Because it’s not the midi data that requires altering — that’s a very easy thing to do; in Logic, for example, you simply add a Midi Transformer with the desired settings, and you’re done —, no, it’s the way the incoming midi data trigger the various velocity layers (according to these layers' and the related scripts’ dynamic settings) that needs a look into. In other words: it's how the 300Grand interprets incoming midi instructions that should be edited, not the instructions themselves. And that can only be done inside Kontakt itself.

If you alter the midi data prior to them entering Kontakt, all you get is a skewed dynamic response: you play a note with a velocity of, say, 60, but it enters Kontakt as if it were a note with a velocity of 80. That’s no good, is it? Apart from messing with the playability, it also gives you a distorted image of the instrument’s dynamic character and behaviour. ‘Playability’ to me means that every single choice or decision I make as a player is accurately reflected in how the instrument responds. If a piano is capable of translating all of my intentions into a corresponding sound/timbre, then I call it ‘playable’ and then I can connect with it. But if there’s a midi transformer at work that changes what I play before it reaches the instrument I’m playing, that important connection is already fatally compromised even before a single sound is heard.

No, what I hope will be implemented — and I understand that it will — is (1) the option to re-calibrate the instrument’s response to incoming midi in a far more detailed way than a simple curve and/or S-curve can accomplish and (2) the option to re-balance the keyboard so that, for example, the higher octaves can, if so desired, be a bit more present, or the lowest octaves a notch or two less so. Things like that.

And what I also hope will find its way into an update, is a parameter with which to reduce the dynamic range without any loss of dynamic differentiation within that range. In other words: all the dynamic colour should remain present at all times, but the difference between the softest and the loudest level that the instrument is capable of can be reduced or enlarged, depending on what the situation calls for. A solo piano performance, for instance, often benefits from a greater dynamic range, while in a production where the piano is part of a fuller arrangement — pop, orchestral, something hybrid, whatever — it is usually advantageous if the piano’s dynamic range is reduced.

_


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## Mike Stone (Aug 14, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I don’t see how an external midi transformer (like Springbeats' VelPro or something similar) can help to make the 300Grand respond more to one’s liking. Because it’s not the midi data that requires altering — that’s a very easy thing to do; in Logic, for example, you simply add a Midi Transformer with the desired settings, and you’re done —, no, it’s the way the incoming midi data trigger the various velocity layers (according to these layers' and the related scripts’ dynamic settings) that needs a look into. In other words: it's how the 300Grand interprets incoming midi instructions that should be edited, not the instructions themselves. And that can only be done inside Kontakt itself.
> 
> If you alter the midi data prior to them entering Kontakt, all you get is a skewed dynamic response: you play a note with a velocity of, say, 60, but it enters Kontakt as if it were a note with a velocity of 80. That’s no good, is it? Apart from messing with the playability, it also gives you a distorted image of the instrument’s dynamic character and behaviour. ‘Playability’ to me means that every single choice or decision I make as a player is accurately reflected in how the instrument responds. If a piano is capable of translating all of my intentions into a corresponding sound/timbre, then I call it ‘playable’ and then I can connect with it. But if there’s a midi transformer at work that changes what I play before it reaches the instrument I’m playing, that important connection is already fatally compromised even before a single sound is heard.
> 
> ...


Exactly, well put. Having a function that could decrease the dynamics between soft and hard velocities (not via compression or limiter effect) without changing the dynamic color, would be very useful. Now we can only increase dynamics, which is less useful. 

This combined with more control over the velocity curve within the library, would put 300 Grand over the top. I mean, it’s already a great library and I definitely recommend it, but those are the missing pieces for me.


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## rrichard63 (Aug 14, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I don’t see how an external midi transformer (like Springbeats' VelPro or something similar) can help to make the 300Grand respond more to one’s liking. Because it’s not the midi data that requires altering — that’s a very easy thing to do; in Logic, for example, you simply add a Midi Transformer with the desired settings, and you’re done —, no, it’s the way the incoming midi data trigger the various velocity layers (according to these layers' and the related scripts’ dynamic settings) that needs a look into. In other words: it's how the 300Grand interprets incoming midi instructions that should be edited, not the instructions themselves. And that can only be done inside Kontakt itself.
> 
> If you alter the midi data prior to them entering Kontakt, all you get is a skewed dynamic response: you play a note with a velocity of, say, 60, but it enters Kontakt as if it were a note with a velocity of 80. That’s no good, is it? Apart from messing with the playability, it also gives you a distorted image of the instrument’s dynamic character and behaviour. ‘Playability’ to me means that every single choice or decision I make as a player is accurately reflected in how the instrument responds. If a piano is capable of translating all of my intentions into a corresponding sound/timbre, then I call it ‘playable’ and then I can connect with it. But if there’s a midi transformer at work that changes what I play before it reaches the instrument I’m playing, that important connection is already fatally compromised even before a single sound is heard.
> 
> ...


A valid point. Whatever adjustments you make in a program like VelPro affect every track in your composition, not just this one piano. I think the main purpose of VelPro is to adjust for issues with the mechanics of your keyboard and/or playing technique (and the interactions between them) that affect all VIs in a similar way. For that, it's really useful.


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## LTS (Aug 14, 2022)

Hi my friends, is it me or effectively the A6 note of the Grand 300 is missing the highest dynamic layer (so has a limited velocity range) when comparing it with the adjacent notes?


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 14, 2022)

LTS said:


> Hi my friends, is it me or effectively the A6 note of the Grand 300 is missing the highest dynamic layer (so has a limited velocity range) when comparing it with the adjacent notes?


I don't notice anything with A6 (assuming middle C is C4). I just find that overall it gets progressively weaker as you go up the keyboard, but I don't notice any variation in any given adjacent note.


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## LTS (Aug 14, 2022)

Thank you for the reply. I will make some further tests tomorrow but every time I hit that A6 (yes, considering C4 as middle C) while playing, for example, a fast arpeggio or a fast scale... that specific note is "breaking" my lick as in some way it sounds lighter/weaker despite the same finger pressure applied to all notes... of course also testing the note separately at the highest dynamic I have the same feeling... and yes, all what you say is correct... in general a great sounding piano (a real contender vs my fave Garritan CFX) and a real pity for those higher notes sounding less majestic than the rest...


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## Mike Stone (Aug 14, 2022)

LTS said:


> Thank you for the reply. I will make some further tests tomorrow but every time I hit that A6 (yes, considering C4 as middle C) while playing, for example, a fast arpeggio or a fast scale... that specific note is "breaking" my lick as in some way it sounds lighter/weaker despite the same finger pressure applied to all notes... of course also testing the note separately at the highest dynamic I have the same feeling... and yes, all what you say is correct... in general a great sounding piano (a real contender vs my fave Garritan CFX) and a real pity for those higher notes sounding less majestic than the rest...


You could add the stage mic channel, panning it a bit to the right, and add a little high end definition with the EQ (not too much though). This way, the treble part of the keyboard gets a bit more powerful.

Added control over the velocity and the different parts of the keyboard range, like re-peat mentioned, would be the best option though. I agree Garritan CFX is still my favorite piano overall, but it's getting older and there's no Apple silicone support.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 14, 2022)

LTS said:


> Thank you for the reply. I will make some further tests tomorrow but every time I hit that A6 (yes, considering C4 as middle C) while playing, for example, a fast arpeggio or a fast scale... that specific note is "breaking" my lick as in some way it sounds lighter/weaker despite the same finger pressure applied to all notes... of course also testing the note separately at the highest dynamic I have the same feeling... and yes, all what you say is correct... in general a great sounding piano (a real contender vs my fave Garritan CFX) and a real pity for those higher notes sounding less majestic than the rest...


Consider that it might be your controller. If it has the option to shift the keyboard up or down an octave, try moving it so that you can play the A6 on a different key.


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## Mike McCarthy (Aug 15, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I don’t see how an external midi transformer (like Springbeats' VelPro or something similar) can help to make the 300Grand respond more to one’s liking. Because it’s not the midi data that requires altering — that’s a very easy thing to do; in Logic, for example, you simply add a Midi Transformer with the desired settings, and you’re done —, no, it’s the way the incoming midi data trigger the various velocity layers (according to these layers' and the related scripts’ dynamic settings) that needs a look into. In other words: it's how the 300Grand interprets incoming midi instructions that should be edited, not the instructions themselves. And that can only be done inside Kontakt itself.
> 
> If you alter the midi data prior to them entering Kontakt, all you get is a skewed dynamic response: you play a note with a velocity of, say, 60, but it enters Kontakt as if it were a note with a velocity of 80. That’s no good, is it? Apart from messing with the playability, it also gives you a distorted image of the instrument’s dynamic character and behaviour. ‘Playability’ to me means that every single choice or decision I make as a player is accurately reflected in how the instrument responds. If a piano is capable of translating all of my intentions into a corresponding sound/timbre, then I call it ‘playable’ and then I can connect with it. But if there’s a midi transformer at work that changes what I play before it reaches the instrument I’m playing, that important connection is already fatally compromised even before a single sound is heard.
> 
> ...


This would be wonderful - but until someone actually implements this elegant idea, all we have are scalers like VelPro - and I'm just pointing out that it works very well (for me, anyway).

I have it on all my tracks, with custom presets for all my libraries (not just pianos).

If my keyboard's default velocity scale happens to work well with a particular lib (as it does for Garritan SFX) then I just use the neutral (linear) preset in Velpro.

For everything else (Perc, Shorts, Modo Bass, Hammersmith, whatever) the perfect velocity match to my Roland controller is only a preset-click away. Especially useful for individual problem notes in some libraries. Couldn't live without it.

It loads on boot up and runs quietly in the background


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## Mike McCarthy (Aug 15, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> Whatever adjustments you make in a program like VelPro affect every track in your composition, not just this one piano.


Only if you use the same VelPro curve on every track - that's where the user-presets are so useful - effectively giving you a different, customised velocity curve for every track, optimised for each individual library that is routed to that track


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## Fizzlewig (Aug 15, 2022)

Every Piano library I have (I have a lot), I always struggle with velocity layers / velocity curves. I suppose it's ok if you are just stomping out pop chords etc but playing something more sophisticated is frustrating, I find. My technique obviously can be improved, and I am always trying to push myself with this, but if you cannot connect with the response then it is a lost cause, it doesn't matter how good and wonderful the recordings (samples) sound, if you cannot express your intentions, then that is not good. I hope Production Voices can somehow address this (it should have been implemented from the start in my opinion, especially with all their experience at doing this stuff). I just wish I had a Real grand piano, I really long for one. I guess meditation and manifesting my desires is the next step! I am still enjoying the 'sound' of the 300 very much though.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 15, 2022)

Fizzlewig said:


> Every Piano library I have (I have a lot), I always struggle with velocity layers / velocity curves. I suppose it's ok if you are just stomping out pop chords etc but playing something more sophisticated is frustrating, I find. My technique obviously can be improved, and I am always trying to push myself with this, but if you cannot connect with the response then it is a lost cause, it doesn't matter how good and wonderful the recordings (samples) sound, if you cannot express your intentions, then that is not good. I hope Production Voices can somehow address this (it should have been implemented from the start in my opinion, especially with all their experience at doing this stuff). I just wish I had a Real grand piano, I really long for one. I guess meditation and manifesting my desires is the next step! I am still enjoying the 'sound' of the 300 very much though.


There is additional velocity curve functionality in Kontakt, that can be used to tweak the curve further (haven't got time to test it today). However, I must stress that this is an excellent piano library, and Jason also offers great customer service, so I'm very happy with this purchase.


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## rrichard63 (Aug 16, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Only if you use the same VelPro curve on every track - that's where the user-presets are so useful - effectively giving you a different, customised velocity curve for every track, optimised for each individual library that is routed to that track


Yes, and every time you move to a different track in your DAW, you have to remember to open a separate application and change the preset there to match.


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## Mike McCarthy (Aug 17, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> Yes, and every time you move to a different track in your DAW, you have to remember to open a separate application and change the preset there to match.


Correct - not ideal, but the results are worth it (for me)


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## Fleer (Aug 18, 2022)

I’m not happy with Production Voices at all. Got several of their pianos but made an early mistake purchasing their Production Voices Grand, thinking it was a Kontakt Player library. Beginner’s fault of course. Asked for a refund. Got a no. Asked for an exchange. Got another no. Asked for an nfr exchange suggesting I would cover the difference if any. Got yet another no. 
Of all library developers (and I own many piano libs) I have never encountered such an unhelpful attitude. I’m staying clear.


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## moon (Aug 18, 2022)

Fleer said:


> I’m not happy with Production Voices at all. Got several of their pianos but made an early mistake purchasing their Production Voices Grand, thinking it was a Kontakt Player library. Beginner’s fault of course. Asked for a refund. Got a no. Asked for an exchange. Got another no. Asked for an nfr exchange suggesting I would cover the difference if any. Got yet another no.
> Of all library developers (and I own many piano libs) I have never encountered such an unhelpful attitude. I’m staying clear.


Player libraries have literally zero copy protection built in besides potential watermarking. I'm not surprised you were denied.


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## Mike Stone (Aug 18, 2022)

Fleer said:


> I’m not happy with Production Voices at all. Got several of their pianos but made an early mistake purchasing their Production Voices Grand, thinking it was a Kontakt Player library. Beginner’s fault of course. Asked for a refund. Got a no. Asked for an exchange. Got another no. Asked for an nfr exchange suggesting I would cover the difference if any. Got yet another no.
> Of all library developers (and I own many piano libs) I have never encountered such an unhelpful attitude. I’m staying clear.


This is how pretty much how every sample library company works, unless they use iLok or some other system with a digital license that can be deactivated and transferred to another person/computer. I've bought a couple of libraries myself without copy protection, that I quickly realized were a waste of money, but once the files are downloaded, it's too late for a refund or an exchange.


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## Fleer (Aug 19, 2022)

I get you, Mike, but their own T&C literally allowed for possible refunds, which was one of the reasons I purchased their expensive ProductionVoices Grand as a noob. Only later did I understand the implications of (non) Kontakt Player libraries, but refund nor exchange were granted. All other devs I needed similar support from were entirely helpful. 

Edit: ProductionVoices came through after all. Thanks for helping out, Charlie!


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## Franklin (Aug 20, 2022)

Became interested in the 300 Grand, but the Production Voices website cannot be reached. Anyone else having the same issue?


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## tcb (Aug 20, 2022)

Franklin said:


> Became interested in the 300 Grand, but the Production Voices website cannot be reached. Anyone else having the same issue?


same here


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 20, 2022)

The server is down, and Jason probably doesn't know it. And he probably couldn't do anything about it if he did. It is likely a hosting issue.


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## sostenuto (Aug 20, 2022)

Same here ~ 9:50 am _ U.S. MDT. ????


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## Franklin (Aug 21, 2022)

If you're running a bussiness and your website is down for several days, you should notice somehow that something is wrong I guess...


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## Scottyb (Aug 21, 2022)

Been down for several days now which is very odd, especially after releasing a new library.


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## davinwv (Aug 23, 2022)

I checked earlier today, and the Production Voices website is back online.


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## Fleer (Aug 27, 2022)

The number of (Disklavier) velocities on this 300 Grand is pretty amazing, triple the amount of the Production Grand. I wonder how the 16bit 44,1kHz definition compares to the latter’s full 24bit 96kHz, given that the original recording of the former was indeed also done at that high spec.


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## Flyo (Aug 27, 2022)

Fleer said:


> The number of (Disklavier) velocities on this 300 Grand is pretty amazing, triple the amount of the Production Grand. I wonder how the 16bit 44,1kHz definition compares to the latter’s full 24bit 96kHz, given that the original recording of the former was indeed also done at that high spec.


I also wonder exactly this. I really wish they release 300grand at least 24bit 48khz. I asume that this compression was selected for efficiency, playability, and size, with that approach in mind.


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## Fleer (Aug 27, 2022)

Flyo said:


> I also wonder exactly this. I really wish they release 300grand at least 24bit 48khz. I asume that this compression was selected for efficiency, playability, and size, with that approach in mind.


Or maybe ProductionVoices had another reason to launch the full grand at 16bit 44.1kHz?


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## Fleer (Aug 27, 2022)

I do like Mike Greene's musings from a few years back on the topic:
"I've asked myself this same question about whether 24 bits is worthwhile for a sample library. For the reasons Charlie stated really well, my opinion is that it isn't. We (Realitone) record at a 24-bit sample rate, but we then normalize all samples, so at that point, my opinion is there's no need for the extra dynamic range that 24-bit offers.

For example, a quiet guitar sample when normalized turns into a very loud guitar sample, so in the mapping editor (or in the scripting), that sample gets volume-reduced by 30 or 40 db so that it will sound right. So the _effective_ dynamic range of that guitar zone is 30 or 40 db _plus_ whatever the dynamic range of 16 bits would be. That's plenty.

So if I were making libraries for myself, where I record 24 bit and then normalize samples individually, I'd make the final samples 16 bit. Partly to save hard drive space (minor issue) and partly for the instrument's RAM footprint (bigger issue). Plus I assume 16-bit is easier on the processor, although I'm not sure about that part.

But ... I'm not making libraries for myself anymore, so not all my decisions can be based on cold hard facts. I'm trying to _sell_ these things, and many potential customers have a lot of preconceived notions. In many people's minds, bigger is always better, whether it's in total gigabytes, or whether it's number of round robins, or whether it's bit depth. So for that handful of sales I might lose to the guys who think our quality isn't up to snuff if we use 16-bits, I stay at 24-bit.

That's all just my opinion, mind you, and by no means have I cracked the mystery of how to run a successful sample library company, so take it for what it's worth. In fact ... having said all that, I'm considering switching (quietly) to 16 bit for an upcoming library where the RAM footprint and processor load will be a major issue."





Is there a worthwhile benefit to 24-bit samples over 16?


I've asked myself this same question about whether 24 bits is worthwhile for a sample library. For the reasons Charlie stated really well, my opinion is that it isn't. We (Realitone) record at a 24-bit sample rate, but we then normalize all samples, so at that point, my opinion is there's no...




vi-control.net


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## Fleer (Aug 28, 2022)

Another question if I may. Is everyone downloading through Native Access? I'm getting the dreaded Native Access error message for not having enough space on my system drive to download and extract, even though I want to download to an external drive. The only alternative would be requesting an iso-file? Or have Native Instruments updated their Native Access app yet to get rid of this problem with third party Kontakt Player libraries?

Edit: apparently the latest version of Native Access should solve this: https://community.native-instrument...t-download-installers-due-to-hard-drive-space

Edit 2: confirmed. Problem solved.


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## pianistje (Aug 29, 2022)

Played some more with the Production Voices 300 grand and some observations.
I have a new fast Ryzen processor installed recently so my buffer settings are set for optimal playability and i hardly get into the 10% domain of processing power whereas the Embertone 1955 still maxes out with multiple mics engaged.
I like it very much and from my Kawai MP11SE the playability is very good.
The upper discant is not very dominant, even a bit subdued, which i personally like because most vst’s have unnatural volumes in the upper octave hardly present in a real grand.

Directly compared with the VSL 280VC ( which has a very pronounced higher octave in real life) the difference in the highest octave is huge. But again it almost sounds artificial when playing the 280VC and wants me to correct my playing when hitting high notes.
With the 300 in combination with a wonderful, stunning bass i never have the feeling an octave is out of place somewhere….but that’s just me of course. I used the -centre stage- preset with some tiny adjustments and yes it feels great and has a nice stage reverb feeling.

But the real highlight is the tonal character. Without using the soft pedal a softly played passage is warm and even intimate. When played loudly it opens up in attack/brightness just smoothly.
Despite the fact that the VC280 sounds mighty in it’s own right ,i never got the velocity curve dialed in to achieve this to my liking.

Still looking forward to explore this PV300 much more, but even now i can only compliment it for what it is for a more than a reasonable price.
I have payed more for many others but those gather dust and end up on my long list of irresponsible impulse buys.


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## Mike McCarthy (Aug 29, 2022)

pianistje said:


> Played some more with the Production Voices 300 grand and some observations.
> I have a new fast Ryzen processor installed recently so my buffer settings are set for optimal playability and i hardly get into the 10% domain of processing power whereas the Embertone 1955 still maxes out with multiple mics engaged.
> I like it very much and from my Kawai MP11SE the playability is very good.
> The upper discant is not very dominant, even a bit subdued, which i personally like because most vst’s have unnatural volumes in the upper octave hardly present in a real grand.
> ...


Thanks for your insights - I am severely tempted to purchase but I too have a graveyard of piano libraries and lots of regrets...only Garritan CFX currently survives in my template.

If you happen to own Garritan CFX I would value your opinion - how does 300 Grand compare?


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## Fleer (Aug 29, 2022)

Interestingly, the 300 Grand manual (March 2022 version) states in fine: "300 Grand is upgradable to 300 Grand Pro and 300 Grand Max, higher sample rate and bit rate versions of 300 Grand that also require the full version of Kontakt."


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## pianistje (Aug 30, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Thanks for your insights - I am severely tempted to purchase but I too have a graveyard of piano libraries and lots of regrets...only Garritan CFX currently survives in my template.
> 
> If you happen to own Garritan CFX I would value your opinion - how does 300 Grand compare?


Yes i have/had the Garritan CFX but deleted it from my drives to make space for the latest VSL piano’s.
So it’s tricky to compare from memory.
I was over the moon with the Garritan for years but in the end something was missing.
It was the ‘sameness’ that got to me. A sort of sample fatigue knowing what was to come and it’s inability to properly sit in a dense mix.

Garritan is warm but lacks that cutting edge layer that changes the tonal color. The playability of the Garritan is truly superb but suffers also from ‘sameness’ in all ranges from ppp to fff. The 300 cured that.
But again that’s from memory only.
I would also live to compare them directly.


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## tcb (Sep 2, 2022)

Finally purchased 300 Grand before the upgrade sale end.I already have too many piano librarys,I will not buy another piano library,I promise.


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## RMH (Sep 2, 2022)

tcb said:


> Finally purchased 300 Grand before the upgrade sale end.I already have too many piano librarys,I will not buy another piano library,I promise.


I won't buy it Even if I make countless promises, I eventually find myself buying.🤣


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## pianistje (Sep 2, 2022)

tcb said:


> Finally purchased 300 Grand before the upgrade sale end.I already have too many piano librarys,I will not buy another piano library,I promise.


Congratulations ! We know the drill 😂. Played it for days now and it is becoming my favorite library. Something smooth and full in just the right amount.


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## Fleer (Sep 2, 2022)

So, no need for higher resolution samples?


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## pianistje (Sep 2, 2022)

Fleer said:


> So, no need for higher resolution samples?


I dunno know, but the source samples are 24 bit /96KHz converted to 16/44.1. Your CD quality is the same.

I DO agree that mixing in the highest resolution before converting to CD format makes a big difference.
I can hear it in my mixes. The difference between high resolution 24/96 -> 16/44.1 CD is much better than 16/44.1 mixing -> 16/44.1 CD.

Rick Beato once had an episode where final recordings in all formats where carefully listened by a 26 year old university audio expert and she could only pick 66% right. Normal non specialists are purely guessing most of the time….at least that was the conclusion.


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## Flyo (Sep 2, 2022)

I was excepting also a higher resolution audio for this main piano release. PV also offer less uncompressed version for their premium sampled pianos. I hope they release 300 grand version with less final compression.


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## Fleer (Sep 2, 2022)

That's indeed what the manual (in fine) seems to hint at, although it refers to Kontakt Full versions.


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## jdg78 (Sep 22, 2022)

I picked this up recently and have been playing around with it for the past week. I would echo a lot of what others have said. Overall, it’s very well done - beautifully recorded with excellent playability and a quite generous array of mics and different customization options for shaping the sound profile. 

The piano itself is very attractive, with an extremely rich and powerful bass and very clear and forward mids. 

The upper section is a bit more problematic however. The tone itself is lovely, and it’s kind of refreshing to hear a Yamaha that doesn’t have a super bright and hard treble, but this one is _*so*_ mellow and reticent that I often find it difficult to a achieve a proper balance between the treble and bass. It’s almost like the entire upper third of the keyboard has a damper over it. Even when I try compensate by applying a heavier than normal touch with the right hand, it still often struggles to cut through.

I’ve been playing around with trying to apply a bit of EQ to boost the treble, but so far have not been totally satisfied with the results.

I wouldn’t say it’s a deal-breaker - I still enjoy playing on it overall - but it does strike me as a bit of an unfortunate flaw in what is otherwise an excellent instrument.

However, I think that if the developer could somehow address this imbalance in a future update, this could be one of most solid and recommendable all-around piano libraries.


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## chasmanian (Sep 23, 2022)

appreciate your comments. have been hoping for more thoughts on this.
have been playing it a bit.
I like the tone and playability.
would love to know what Jason or Simeon think about your thoughts.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 23, 2022)

I agree with jdg78. I've been using the piano quite a bit, and it's really, really good. Still, there's a few things that detract from a perfect 10/10 score. Mind you, I could point out various flaws with Noire and other "top of the line" piano libraries.

I'll probably still use Garritan CFX for most of my stuff. It sounds a bit more focused overall, and as others have said, the top octaves just cut through a little more. This could be mostly fixed in 300 Grand with more flexible velocity curve options, so fingers crossed for an update. That said, there are some resonances and frequency spikes in Garritan CFX, that can make it a bit "uncooperative" in a busy mix. So, I'm very much rooting for Production Voices to continue improving on their 300 Grand.

Also a note to sample library developers:

Please don't make things unnecessarily complicated. There's no real need for 9 different mic channels, and a gazillion mixer options. Just make 2-4 mic channels of absolutely great sounding and useful piano samples, but have flexible EQ, reverb, velocity and dynamics options. That's enough.

Libraries that drown the user with too many options, tells me that the developer maybe doesn't trust the quality of the core sounds enough, and is willing have his costumers waste unnecessary time fiddling with all sorts of parameters and options to get the desired sound. Here Garritan CFX strikes the perfect balance IMO.


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## jdg78 (Sep 23, 2022)

By the way, I should add that I’m assuming the piano plays this way in real life, and that this is not an engineering or developer created issue. 

My understanding is that it was recorded using Yamaha’s disklavier system so should be more or less accurate to how the physical instrument responds. It’s just appears to have been voiced in such a way that the upper 2 and a half octaves are too soft in comparison with the the mids and bass.

If it was possible to adjust the volume output on a note-per-note basis like in the VSL Synchron piano engine, this issue could be eliminated completely, and it would really take this to the next level.


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## Mike McCarthy (Sep 23, 2022)

I agree that this piano is really really good - I've been using it for a while now and I actually prefer the tone to the Garritan CFX.

But all the comments regarding the volume-imbalance across the registers are true - this needs to be addressed (and Jason has confirmed that he's working on it).

When it is possible to adjust the balance between bass and treble, and also have a control that allows the dynamic range to be reduced without losing velocity-layers (as Experimenta Due does so well) - then this piano will come close to being the perfect piano for me.


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## Jett Hitt (Sep 23, 2022)

The longer I used this piano, the more the imbalance bothered me. It really is a lot of work to play. I find myself reaching for the Garritan when I just want to play. But the 300 remains the most beautifully sampled piano that I own. The tone is so gorgeous. I trust an update will right some of its imbalance.


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## dickiefunk (Oct 3, 2022)

Interesting to read the comments on the 300 Grand. 
My goto pianos are NI Noire and Embertone Walker Comcert D.
Noire is my favourite of the two but there is an annoying bug with Cubase 12 tempo track! Also, Noire doesn’t have Una Corda and there is a slight metallic ring on a note or two.
Listening to the demos of 300 Grand the tone sounds possibly the nicest out of any sampled piano library I’ve heard. I was initially put off by only having 16bit samples (though these will be upgradable in the future) and the highs sounding slightly imbalanced compared to the bass region. Noire has a slider that can reduce the bass notes which is a good option and it would be great if this could be customisable in 300 grand with a slider or two.
If these issues are going to be addressed then 300 Grand could potentially replace all my piano libraries and become my new goto.


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## CeDur (Oct 3, 2022)

Yesterday I re-installed Concert Grand and Production Grand 2 from PV and reminded myself how much I like the works of Jason. Especially PG2 has such a charm. I own 300 Grand Compact (sforzando) and I'm so tempted to try the full version, but due to recent changes in USD to my local currency rate, it would cost me 25% more than a year ago. A bit too much to pay for just the curiosity (the 149$ price is of course, objectively, very good). If I ever do, I'm going to record Garritan vs VSL vs Production Voices CFX comparison.

In the meantime, can you guys share any recordings done with full 300Grand?


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## dickiefunk (Oct 3, 2022)

CeDur said:


> If I ever do, I'm going to record Garritan vs VSL vs Production Voices CFX comparison.


Simeon from PraiseTracks is going to do an in depth comparison video of these on his review channel at some point!


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## CeDur (Oct 12, 2022)

While waiting for Simeon's in depth video, I recorded (mainly to test my camera) a small quick comparison of VSL CFX, 300 Grand and Garritan CFX. I'm wondering if anybody can guess which is which


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 12, 2022)

CeDur said:


> While waiting for Simeon's in depth video, I recorded (mainly to test my camera) a small quick comparison of VSL CFX, 300 Grand and Garritan CFX. I'm wondering if anybody can guess which is which



I will listen again later on in my studio, but on my phone, I consistently liked Piano 2. Regardless of which one is the 300, that controller gets considerably more punch out of the treble than mine will.


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## CGR (Oct 12, 2022)

Only listening on my phone speaker, and I don’t own the VSL CFX or 300 Grand full edition, but I’d guess:

Gartitan CFX
VSL Synchron CFX
300 Grand CFX


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## JacksonTree (Oct 12, 2022)

CGR said:


> Only listening on my phone speaker, and I don’t own the VSL CFX or 300 Grand full edition, but I’d guess:
> 
> Gartitan CFX
> VSL Synchron CFX
> 300 Grand CFX


I agree with this guess


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## Fleer (Oct 12, 2022)

CeDur said:


> While waiting for Simeon's in depth video, I recorded (mainly to test my camera) a small quick comparison of VSL CFX, 300 Grand and Garritan CFX. I'm wondering if anybody can guess which is which



So you did get the 300 Grand full version after all


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 12, 2022)

Having heard it in the studio, Piano 3 is definitely the 300. I don't own the VSL CFX, so I am unsure. Piano 2 just has a warmer room than the other two, which makes me think it might be the Garritan.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Oct 13, 2022)

CeDur said:


> While waiting for Simeon's in depth video, I recorded (mainly to test my camera) a small quick comparison of VSL CFX, 300 Grand and Garritan CFX. I'm wondering if anybody can guess which is which



I'm only listening on laptop speakers, but they all sound fantastic!


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## CeDur (Oct 13, 2022)

I didn't want to spend a lot of time trying to match the mic setup for each, but I've tried to make them close volume-wise. It was hardest for VSL since it has noticeably higher dynamic range then other two.






Reverb is off for all except 300 Grand. It was too dry compared to other 2 without it.



Fleer said:


> So you did get the 300 Grand full version after all


I couldn't resist 



Jett Hitt said:


> Having heard it in the studio, Piano 3 is definitely the 300. I don't own the VSL CFX, so I am unsure. Piano 2 just has a warmer room than the other two, which makes me think it might be the Garritan.


Good guess with Piano 2!

Actually the answers are:
1. PV 300 Grand
2. Garritan CFX
3. VSL CFX

PS. I 'overplayed' VSL on that video - to be honest due to its dynamic and timbral range it's the hardest to control.


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 13, 2022)

CeDur said:


> Good guess with Piano 2!


Yep, 'cause that's what Meatloaf said, "One outta three ain't bad." Oh wait, maybe I've forgotten the lyrics.

Hmmm. . . I kept listening for weakness in the treble, hence the reason I picked the 300 as Piano 3. I was disappointed to do so, though, because it was my least favorite of the three. Nos. 1 & 2 were rock solid. Thanks! This was fun.


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 13, 2022)

@CeDur you seemed to have pretty decent control with that controller without overplaying. Which controller is that? With my Roland A-88, I struggle with the 300 in the treble.


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## CeDur (Oct 13, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Hmmm. . . I kept listening for weakness in the treble, hence the reason I picked the 300 as Piano 3. I was disappointed to do so, though, because it was my least favorite of the three. Nos. 1 & 2 were rock solid. Thanks! This was fun.


I think VSL CFX top octave is weaker than 300 Grand, but VSL allows for adjusting volume and dynamics of individual keys (which I'm too lazy to do). To be honest I didn't notice particulary weak treble with 300 Grand, it's not as pronounced as Garritan, but manageable. Maybe try increasing volume of one of the closer mics (Hammer or Out 1)? They should have more power in that area. Also Touch setting is very important - I set mine between 0 - 6%, anything above is artificially dynamic for my taste (depending on the mic).



Jett Hitt said:


> you seemed to have pretty decent control with that controller without overplaying. Which controller is that? With my Roland A-88, I struggle with the 300 in the treble.


It's Roland FP10, slightly modified: https://vi-control.net/community/th...downweight-adding-felt-near-fallboard.130522/ 
I use 'medium' touch setting in Roland and no additional curve adjustments within DAW. If you have A88 MkII, it's literally the same action and if it's A88 MkI it's Ivory Feel-G, PHA4 Standard predecessor - almost the same, but a bit lighter. Maybe you've changed touch curve and didn't notice? It happened to me at the past


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## RMH (Oct 14, 2022)

Will the instrument offer an additional discount from $149?


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## davinwv (Oct 14, 2022)

RMH said:


> Will the instrument offer an additional discount from $149?


Jason has said that he has priced it aggressively, and that there will be no sales/discounts. We will see when Black Friday/ End of 2022 rolls around . . .


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## RMH (Oct 14, 2022)

davinwv said:


> Jason has said that he has priced it aggressively, and that there will be no sales/discounts. We will see when Black Friday/ End of 2022 rolls around . . .


Thank you!


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## RMH (Oct 15, 2022)

I have a question. Isn't the Yamaha Grand Piano c7 and cfx different models?


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## CeDur (Oct 16, 2022)

Yes, C7 is different model than CFX. The latter is bigger (9ft), newer concert grand. Production Voices sampled both: _Production Grand 2_ is C7 and _300 Grand_ is CFX.


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## RMH (Oct 16, 2022)

CeDur said:


> _Production Grand 2_ is C7 and _300 Grand_ is CFX.


There were two products in one company! First of all, I'll have to consider the cheap 300 first.


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## Mike Stone (Oct 22, 2022)

Any news about a possible update? The soft/weak upper octaves is getting annoying. Compare the 5th octave and higher to the 3rd (4th being the middle). The upper octaves lack a significant amount of loudness/volume compared to the lower octaves, which is an issue for nuanced and balanced playing.

Until this is fixed, I'm sticking with Garritan CFX. Garritan CFX doesn't support Apple silicone, and has some unfortunate resonances, but the velocity curve is more even across the keyboard. I would otherwise prefer to use 300 Grand, though.


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 22, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Any news about a possible update? The soft/weak upper octaves is getting annoying. Compare the 5th octave and higher to the 3rd (4th being the middle). The upper octaves lack a significant amount of loudness/volume compared to the lower octaves, which is an issue for nuanced and balanced playing.
> 
> Until this is fixed, I'm sticking with Garritan CFX. Garritan CFX doesn't support Apple silicone, and has some unfortunate resonances, but the velocity curve is more even across the keyboard. I would otherwise prefer to use 300 Grand, though.


Totally agree with this. Best tone by far (for me) but imbalances across registers needs adjustment. Probably caused by the Disklavier system - the rest of the engineering is flawless. I find the bass also too loud - so it's quite a challenge to play this piano. But my God what a lovely sound!
The developer did email me that he is fixing this - but did not say when it would be ready.

It can't come soon enough.

In the meantime it's also Garritan CFX for me - and for Steinway I keep going back to Sampletekk's Black Grand - not the reworked Black Grand II, the original Gigastudio Black Grand (!) - something magical about the way that one was sampled - astonishing that a lib that old still holds its own next to the current crop...but for the right tracks, it does!


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## jdg78 (Oct 22, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Any news about a possible update? The soft/weak upper octaves is getting annoying. Compare the 5th octave and higher to the 3rd (4th being the middle). The upper octaves lack a significant amount of loudness/volume compared to the lower octaves, which is an issue for nuanced and balanced playing.
> 
> Until this is fixed, I'm sticking with Garritan CFX. Garritan CFX doesn't support Apple silicone, and has some unfortunate resonances, but the velocity curve is more even across the keyboard. I would otherwise prefer to use 300 Grand, though.


Yeah, I really hope they do something to address this soon. It’s a real flaw that gets increasingly annoying the more you play on it.

I’ve tried various tweaks to try to minimize it, and so far the only thing I’ve found that helps somewhat is to shift the sound balance in the Kontakt player slightly to the right so that it emphasizes the treble more, but this is far from an ideal solution.

I’d love to get more use out of this since it’s excellent otherwise, but until they implement a fix, I’d recommend sticking with Garritan, Noire or whatever your favorite piano VI is.


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 27, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> Yeah, I really hope they do something to address this soon. It’s a real flaw that gets increasingly annoying the more you play on it.
> 
> I’ve tried various tweaks to try to minimize it, and so far the only thing I’ve found that helps somewhat is to shift the sound balance in the Kontakt player slightly to the right so that it emphasizes the treble more, but this is far from an ideal solution.
> 
> I’d love to get more use out of this since it’s excellent otherwise, but until they implement a fix, I’d recommend sticking with Garritan, Noire or whatever your favorite piano VI is.


I've figured out how to fix this - but you need to go under the hood.

I can now balance each octave across the keyboard, and also control the dynamic range without losing velocity layers. This piano is perfect now 

Screenshot attached. These two envelope settings need to be applied to the Pedal Up and Pedal Down Groups, for mics 1 - 5 (called Ch1 - 5). The top envelope controls dynamic range and the lower envelope controls volume across the keyboard. I didn't find it necessary to adjust the ambient mics.

Quick noodle attached - before & after, using same midi file for both examples. Dynamic range is reduced so that I don't need compression/limiting for recording.

Happy to share the .nki - but just need to hear back from Jason if he's OK with that.

Just don't move the Touch Response slider after you've made these tweaks - it will undo your new settings. Haven't figured out how to bypass the Touch Response slider yet.


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## CGR (Oct 27, 2022)

Noticeably better balanced in that example. The treble "carries through" the phrases much better. Nice playing too Mike.


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 27, 2022)

CGR said:


> Noticeably better balanced in that example. The treble "carries through" the phrases much better. Nice playing too Mike.


Thanks Craig. If these two envelopes could be given a corresponding slider on the GUI that would be great - 100% control depending on personal taste, playing technique and controller velocity-response.

Nirvana!

This is Kontakt scripting though - which I'll happily leave to someone else


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 27, 2022)

Here's a comparison between Garritan CFX and 300 Grand Full (my tweaked version).

Would be interesting to hear VSL CFX as well.

Midi file attached (134 bpm).


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 27, 2022)

The 300 is super lovely with @Mike McCarthy 's tweaks. I sure hope Jason can provide this in an update.


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 27, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> The 300 is super lovely with @Mike McCarthy's tweaks. I sure hope Jason can provide this in an update.


Will post my tweaked .nki as soon as I hear back from Jason - would hate to derail anything he's planning.

He's done a helluva job with this library.


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## CeDur (Oct 30, 2022)

@Mike McCarthy Since you're not sure you can share the .nki, could you please upload screen of your mic mix you have used for the musical example you uploaded? It sounds so great.

BTW am I the only one who notice quite a high level of noise in attack of some of the samples? I notice it on lower velocities, especially when I mix >2 mics.


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 30, 2022)

CeDur said:


> @Mike McCarthy Since you're not sure you can share the .nki, could you please upload screen of your mic mix you have used for the musical example you uploaded? It sounds so great.
> 
> BTW am I the only one who notice quite a high level of noise in attack of some of the samples? I notice it on lower velocities, especially when I mix >2 mics.


Jason is happy for me to share my tweaked .nki (attached). This is the one I used for the audio demo.
I used Hammer (at 3 o'clock) and Out 1 (at 2 o'clock). Reverb is Hall 300 RIB (just a touch on each mic's send).

Yes I hear the noise you mention - especially with sustain-pedal build up. Mostly on lower velocity layers. Some NR may be needed - but that could kill the sound....


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## Flyo (Oct 30, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Jason is happy for me to share my tweaked .nki (attached). This is the one I used for the audio demo.
> I used Hammer (at 3 o'clock) and Out 1 (at 2 o'clock). Reverb is Hall 300 RIB (just a touch on each mic's send).
> 
> Yes I hear the noise you mention - especially with sustain-pedal build up. Mostly on lower velocity layers. Some NR may be needed - but that could kill the sound....


Thanks for share this! 
Can I ask if Jason mention anything related for a future Update from Production Voices itself? besides what you find for help to remedy this.

Added: I don’t buy it yet, but is on my wishlist


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 30, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Thanks for share this!
> Can I ask if Jason mention anything related for a future Update from Production Voices itself? besides what you find for help to remedy this.
> 
> Added: I don’t buy it yet, but is on my wishlist


Jason is still recovering from a cycling accident so there has been a delay - but he is working on the update - I'm sure it will be worth the wait  


CeDur said:


> @Mike McCarthy Since you're not sure you can share the .nki, could you please upload screen of your mic mix you have used for the musical example you uploaded? It sounds so great.
> 
> BTW am I the only one who notice quite a high level of noise in attack of some of the samples? I notice it on lower velocities, especially when I mix >2 mics.


For intimate playing I find closing the lid improves the hiss - with some adjustment of the Velocity Curve as well, to restore some brightness.


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## Flyo (Oct 30, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Jason is still recovering from a cycling accident so there has been a delay - but he is working on the update - I'm sure it will be worth the wait
> 
> For intimate playing I find closing the lid improves the hiss - with some adjustment of the Velocity Curve as well, to restore some brightness.


Thanks for the insight. Hope that he heals well!


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 30, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Jason is still recovering from a cycling accident so there has been a delay - but he is working on the update - I'm sure it will be worth the wait
> 
> For intimate playing I find closing the lid improves the hiss - with some adjustment of the Velocity Curve as well, to restore some brightness.


I am not a Kontakt guru, so could you please tell me how to install your .nki? Dropping it on Kontakt didn't do the trick. Thanks!


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 30, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I am not a Kontakt guru, so could you please tell me how to install your .nki? Dropping it on Kontakt didn't do the trick. Thanks!


Paste it into your 300 Grand Instruments folder, then load as you would any other .nki. If you are prompted for "missing files" then "Browse for folder" and point Kontakt to your 300 Grand Samples folder. Hope this helps.


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 31, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Paste it into your 300 Grand Instruments folder, then load as you would any other .nki. If you are prompted for "missing files" then "Browse for folder" and point Kontakt to your 300 Grand Samples folder. Hope this helps.


Thanks. I knew how to do this and forgot. This really is a remarkable improvement. I hope Jason can implement something like this.


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## jdg78 (Oct 31, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Jason is happy for me to share my tweaked .nki (attached). This is the one I used for the audio demo.
> I used Hammer (at 3 o'clock) and Out 1 (at 2 o'clock). Reverb is Hall 300 RIB (just a touch on each mic's send).
> 
> Yes I hear the noise you mention - especially with sustain-pedal build up. Mostly on lower velocity layers. Some NR may be needed - but that could kill the sound....


Wow - this is SO much better, thank you!!  

I hope they make a permanent fix soon, but in the meantime this is exactly what I was hoping for and saves this from being another close-but-no-cigar library to one of the top tier piano VI's, IMO.


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## jdg78 (Oct 31, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> I've figured out how to fix this - but you need to go under the hood.
> 
> I can now balance each octave across the keyboard, and also control the dynamic range without losing velocity layers. This piano is perfect now
> 
> ...


After playing around some more, I noticed that your adjustments also seem to have tamed the bass - it's now much easier to control and better integrated w/ the rest of the keyboard. 

This was never as big an issue for me as the soft treble, but I did also find the bass a touch aggressive, and this is a substantial improvement. 

Gotta say, you really did a great job with this - this now sounds and plays incredible. Might be my new favorite. 

Thanks again!


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 31, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> After playing around some more, I noticed that your adjustments also seem to have tamed the bass - it's now much easier to control and better integrated w/ the rest of the keyboard.
> 
> This was never as big an issue for me as the soft treble, but I did also find the bass a touch aggressive, and this is a substantial improvement.
> 
> ...


You're most welcome. I also found the bass a bit too aggressive.
If you take middle C = C4, everything from C3 down is slightly softer. Middle octaves are unchanged, and everything from C5 up is slightly louder. But the envelope does it gently so there is no sudden volume change at the change-over points. It's also now my favourite piano!

Just don't move the Touch Response slider if you're using my tweaked .nki - it messes with my settings (then you'll need to reload the .nki). 

The dynamic range is also slightly adjusted. Softer layers are now slightly louder and louder layers are slightly softer (without sacrificing velocity layers though). I'm sure Jason will make this user-adjustable in the update. For now, you are stuck with the one that suits my Roland A-88


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## jdg78 (Oct 31, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> You're most welcome. I also found the bass a bit too aggressive.
> If you take middle C = C4, everything from C3 down is slightly softer. Middle octaves are unchanged, and everything from C5 up is slightly louder. But the envelope does it gently so there is no sudden volume change at the change-over points. It's also now my favourite piano!
> 
> Just don't move the Touch Response slider if you're using my tweaked .nki - it messes with my settings (then you'll need to reload the .nki).
> ...


Well whatever you did also happens to suit my Kawai keyboard perfectly - I don’t feel any need to adjust the velocity curve or touch response even slightly. If anything, the overall responsiveness feels even better than the out-of-the box version.


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## Jett Hitt (Oct 31, 2022)

I agree. This is better in every way. No more reaching for the Garritan CFX.


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## Mike McCarthy (Oct 31, 2022)

Good to hear 👍

The only other thing I'd like to tweak is the strange behaviour of the ambient mics (Stage, Hall 1 & Hall 2). The pedal-up ambience doesn't match the pedal-down ambience. I think the release samples for the pedal-up ambient mics are the culprits.

Try this: using only the Hall 1 mic, press the sustain pedal and play. Result: you're in a lovely ambient space.
Now release the sustain pedal (but keep playing). Result: you are suddenly no longer in this lovely ambient space

Thoughts?


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## Mike Stone (Nov 1, 2022)

Just tried your nki file, Mike. That was a big improvement, much appreciated.

Btw. I agree the ambience of those mics definitely sounds off (Stage, Hall 1 & 2). Could be a bug or mismatched samples. Have you reported this to Jason?


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 1, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Just tried your nki file, Mike. That was a big improvement, much appreciated.
> 
> Btw. I agree the ambience of those mics definitely sounds off (Stage, Hall 1 & 2). Could be a bug or mismatched samples. Have you reported this to Jason?


Hi Mike - not yet, I don't want to bombard him while he's recovering from his cycling accident - but I will as soon as he's well enough - 'cos this needs to be fixed (it's my only remaining gripe ).

Does the dynamic range that I've chosen for my tweaked .nki suit your controller?
Do you find you still need to adjust the Velocity Curve knob?


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## Mike Stone (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Hi Mike - not yet, I don't want to bombard him while he's recovering from his cycling accident - but I will as soon as he's well enough - 'cos this needs to be fixed (it's my only remaining gripe ).
> 
> Does the dynamic range that I've chosen for my tweaked .nki suit your controller?
> Do you find you still need to adjust the Velocity Curve knob?


Sure, hope he's doing better. 

The dynamics is ok for my Yamaha CP88 keyboard. Overall, I'd say the dynamic range is a bit on the mellow side (sounds great though), and could be a bit more reactive when playing harder.

However, before the fff-layer was a bit jarring, and jumped out too much for me. Your version has a very smooth velocity response. If being very picky, I would love to add a little bit dynamic responsiveness at the top, but otherwise the playability and overall balance is much better now - great job.


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## jdg78 (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Good to hear 👍
> 
> The only other thing I'd like to tweak is the strange behaviour of the ambient mics (Stage, Hall 1 & Hall 2). The pedal-up ambience doesn't match the pedal-down ambience. I think the release samples for the pedal-up ambient mics are the culprits.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don’t often use the ambient mics so never really noticed this, but I guess I hear a slight difference with the sustain. 

In any case, I’m a big fan of the straight up ribbon mic, with little to no reverb added - sounds very focused and warm to my ears.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> If being very picky, I would love to add a little bit dynamic responsiveness at the top, but otherwise the playability and overall balance is much better now - great job.


Mike - this is easily adjustable under the hood - and will hopefully be fully user-adjustable in the update.

In the meantime I'll make a slightly more "top responsive" version and post it later.

For those who are willing to go under the hood, I'd be happy to post a step-by-step - it's simply a matter of adjusting one parameter on the Velocity Envelope, which can be done for all mics simultaneously.


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## Mike Stone (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Mike - this is easily adjustable under the hood - and will hopefully be fully user-adjustable in the update.
> 
> In the meantime I'll make a slightly more "top responsive" version and post it later.
> 
> For those who are willing to go under the hood, I'd be happy to post a step-by-step - it's simply a matter of adjusting one parameter on the Velocity Envelope, which can be done for all mics simultaneously.


Thanks Mike!


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## Flyo (Nov 2, 2022)

Great works both Mikes! 😎


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 2, 2022)

New .nki file attached. Slightly more dynamic range. 

To adjust it yourself:
1.click on the Spanner icon (top left corner).
2.click and slide the edge of the envelope circled in red below.




3.slide up to increase dynamics, slide down to reduce dynamics (level line = original full dyn range).
4.save the .nki with a new name.

Note: don't touch any of the Groups - I've already selected all the relevant groups so that your changes will affect Mics 1 to 5.


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## Fleer (Nov 2, 2022)

This is some community effort 👍


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 2, 2022)

btw - the Velocity Strength knob is still fully functional with my tweaked .nki's (+10% to +20% adds a nice gentle bite on my Roland A-88).

It's only the Touch Response slider that's out of action for now (I wasn't able to disconnect it - so it messes with my changes) - just leave it where it is for now.

One of the reasons this piano sounds so good is the way the sample layers are so evenly mapped. There is a new sample layer for approx. every 4 midi velocities - across the entire keyboard.
Spare a thought for the work involved here


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## Mike Stone (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> New .nki file attached. Slightly more dynamic range.
> .....


That worked even better. I cranked up the velocity strength a bit, and now it's pretty darn close to perfect for me. Maybe I can finally delete Garritan CFX now, we'll see.. Much appreciated, thanks! 



Flyo said:


> Great works both Mikes! 😎


Thanks, but the other Mike did all the work. 😅 Anyways, threads like this is why this forum rocks. 👍


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## Flyo (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Thanks, that worked even better. I cranked up the velocity strength a bit, and now it's pretty darn close to perfect for me. Think I can finally delete my Garritan CFX now, which is saying something.
> 
> Those NKIs you made are a must until Jason releases his update. Much appreciated, great job!


Really delete entirely the Garritan? It is so much better? The Garritan still the most praised CFX one!


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## Mike Stone (Nov 2, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Really delete entirely the Garritan? It is so much better? The Garritan still the most praised CFX one!


Garritan CFX does have a unique distinct and focused clarity to its sound, so there's room for both I guess. 300 Grand really came alive though, with these new NKIs


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## jdg78 (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> btw - the Velocity Strength knob is still fully functional with my tweaked .nki's (+10% to +20% adds a nice gentle bite on my Roland A-88).
> 
> It's only the Touch Response slider that's out of action for now (I wasn't able to disconnect it - so it messes with my changes) - just leave it where it is for now.
> 
> ...


Seriously, thanks so much for doing this - it's such an improvement, and I would have no idea how to make this kind of adjustment myself. 

Question - does this kind of fine-tuning require the full version of Kontakt? 

I've been trying to find the control screens you showed and can't seem to locate them, but I'm only using the free Kontakt player so that may be why.


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## jdg78 (Nov 2, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Garritan CFX does have a unique distinct and focused clarity to its sound, so there's room for both I guess. 300 Grand really came alive though, with these new NKIs


I doubt I would ever get rid of the Garritan entirely as it's so solid and reliable, and has very few, if any, real flaws.

But I think I now have a slight preference for the 300 Grand with these adjustments - it has a closer, more present sound and a greater degree of flexibility with the additional mic mixing options. 

I only wish it had soft pedal samples as well, which Garritan has.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 2, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> Question - does this kind of fine-tuning require the full version of Kontakt?


Yes - full version of Kontakt required.


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## Flyo (Nov 2, 2022)

Thanks for this tips and advanced setting!

Before, just from the beginning Garritan was the only one I wanted, and then when 300 Grand was announced at first phase put me on waiting for the mayor release. I’m between these two now. Already have my Walker full, sound lovely and unique, and Noire but never sound as I wanted for a more pronounced and direct straight sound for cut on busy mixes. 

I think I will keep on listen yours examples and VS head to head, also the results of Production Voices updates. 

So I will keep these on my dreaming wishlist for now. 

Thanks again 🙏🏽


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 3, 2022)

Found a few loose ends that needed tidying up - tweaked .nki files attached.

"Balanced 2.nki" is slightly more dynamically sensitive than "Balanced 1.nki".

"RH strong.nki" is the same as "Balanced 2.nki" except that the treble range is slightly louder (for pieces where the right hand needs to "come forward" slightly in the mix.


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## Mike Stone (Nov 4, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Found a few loose ends that needed tidying up - tweaked .nki files attached.
> 
> "Balanced 2.nki" is slightly more dynamically sensitive than "Balanced 1.nki".
> 
> "RH strong.nki" is the same as "Balanced 2.nki" except that the treble range is slightly louder (for pieces where the right hand needs to "come forward" slightly in the mix.


Nice! Balanced 1/2 are even better, good balance between left and right hand here.

However, I'm struggling with the 6th octave (4th being the middle one) being a bit weaker/softer in the velocity curve than the other octaves, playing above f (ff-fff). Do you also find this? Also the lower half of the 7th octave is too hot/loud, the degree depending on the mic signal combination.

You're really close now, but CFX Garritan is still overall smoother in terms of velocity response across the keyboard (esp. 6th and 7th octave).

Since Grand 300 is uneven out of the box, Jason really needs to make a velocity function, where you can fine-tune the velocity response independently in different user-assigned areas (say louder dynamics in 6th octave vs first half of 7th etc.), for this library to work as intended. Fingers crossed.

Edit: By using a combination of out 1 + out 2 + player, I got the most even response across the keyboard so far.


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## sostenuto (Nov 4, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Nice! Balanced 1/2 are even better, good balance between left and right hand here.
> 
> However, I'm struggling with the 6th octave (4th being the middle one) being a bit weaker/softer in the velocity curve than the other octaves, playing above f (ff-fff). Do you also find this? Also the lower half of the 7th octave is very hot/loud, the degree depending on the mic signal combination.
> 
> ...


Great to have this ongoing, 'fine-tuning' effort here on VI-C !!! Must add _ puzzled that 'Jason' is not indicating appreciation, and specific efforts to incorporate changes. 
One of pleased CFX Garritan users for extended time, yet waiting on provider improvement for Grand 300, before purchasing. 
Will continue to use Compact and wondering if these improvements will work in Compact ?


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## Mike Stone (Nov 4, 2022)

Is there a way to narrow the stereo width of this library, besides going into the individual mic channels in the mixer section? I find narrowing the stereo field this way, creates inconsistencies across the different parts of the keyboard range (using multiple mic signals at once). A master output stereo width setting would've been a useful addition.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 4, 2022)

Is the full library really mostly for piano players/connoisseurs or is there a tangible benefit for your draw it in types?

I tried installing some of the EW pianos and couldn’t hear a big enough difference against similar libraries that had a fraction of the disk footprint. 

72 gigs for a single piano is a lot of space (yes, I know there are bigger disk hogs out there).


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 4, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> However, I'm struggling with the 6th octave (4th being the middle one) being a bit weaker/softer in the velocity curve than the other octaves, playing above f (ff-fff). Do you also find this?


Interesting comment Mike. I seldom venture into the ff-fff domain so I didn't pick this up. Will check it out.
In theory, a velocity envelope can be assigned to individual layers for any part of the keyboard - so it should be possible to assign a unique curve for these ff-fff layers in octave 6. Would you say they are (a) softer in volume or (b) less velocity-sensitive than the surrounding octaves? 
ie. would simply raising the volume of these ff-fff layers fix it?


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 4, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Since Grand 300 is uneven out of the box, Jason really needs to make a velocity function, where you can fine-tune the velocity response independently in different user-assigned areas (say louder dynamics in 6th octave vs first half of 7th etc.), for this library to work as intended. Fingers crossed.


+ 1 



Trash Panda said:


> Is the full library really mostly for piano players/connoisseurs or is there a tangible benefit for your draw it in types?


I'd say mostly for players. 



sostenuto said:


> Will continue to use Compact and wondering if these improvements will work in Compact ?


Pretty sure these tweaked .nki files won't load in Compact - but the tweaked envelopes could be copied across into Compact if you know how. 



Mike Stone said:


> A master output stereo width setting would've been a useful addition.


Another good suggestion. And easily done, I would think.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 4, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Is there a way to narrow the stereo width of this library, besides going into the individual mic channels in the mixer section? I find narrowing the stereo field this way, creates inconsistencies across the different parts of the keyboard range (using multiple mic signals at once). A master output stereo width setting would've been a useful addition.


There were 2 available slots on the Master FX buss - so I was able to add this. I obviously can't add this to the Master FX page of the GUI but one click on the Wrench will take you straight there.

1.Click on the Wrench
2.Scroll down and adjust (circled in red)


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## Mike Stone (Nov 5, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Interesting comment Mike. I seldom venture into the ff-fff domain so I didn't pick this up. Will check it out.
> In theory, a velocity envelope can be assigned to individual layers for any part of the keyboard - so it should be possible to assign a unique curve for these ff-fff layers in octave 6. Would you say they are (a) softer in volume or (b) less velocity-sensitive than the surrounding octaves?
> ie. would simply raising the volume of these ff-fff layers fix it?


Good question. The tone quality of the 6th octave leans towards the softer side, and the ff/fff register has less attack and loudness. Conversely the 7th octave - C#7 to G7, sticks out by being too loud. However, using the Out 1 + Out 2 + Player mic positions together, the sound character is pretty even across the keyboard (except for C#7 to G7).



Mike McCarthy said:


> There were 2 available slots on the Master FX buss - so I was able to add this. I obviously can't add this to the Master FX page of the GUI but one click on the Wrench will take you straight there.
> 
> 1.Click on the Wrench
> 2.Scroll down and adjust (circled in red)


Thanks, much appreciated!  I did -25 on the spread knob, which makes the piano sound less "hyped" (works much better the main mixer).


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## jdg78 (Nov 5, 2022)

This thread may be the last push I needed to finally purchase the full version of Kontakt. Previously the only reason I would have considered it was to be able to get libraries that only run on the full version, but it never seemed worth investing in for this reason alone.

But I didn’t realize it allowed you to fine tune the response of individual instruments to such a degree, and I have a couple of other Kontakt libraries that could also benefit from this kind of tweaking.

I’m a little concerned about the learning curve required to figure out all the features, however. Kontakt has never struck me as the most intuitive or user-friendly platform, and I haven’t found the Native Instruments documentation particularly helpful in this regard.

For those more familiar, are there any resources you would recommend in terms of learning to use the customization tools? Maybe a particularly good YouTube run through or something? Thanks.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 5, 2022)

jdg78 said:


> But I didn’t realize it allowed you to fine tune the response of individual instruments to such a degree, and I have a couple of other Kontakt libraries that could also benefit from this kind of tweaking.


Don't wait a moment longer 

Most of your tweaks will involve adjusting volume of notes that stick out, or the sensitivity of particular notes, swapping out a "jangly" note that bugs you - that sort of thing.
So you would focus on the Mapping Editor and the use of Envelopes - you wouldn't need to learn much else.

I don't consider myself a Kontakt guru by any stretch of the imagination (someone like Evil Dragon is a _true _Kontakt guru) but I learnt everything I know by just poking around and seeing what happens when I click things - and then Googling to find the answer. If something breaks you just reload the .nki.

You could also just upload your .nki to this Forum, describe what you're trying to do and we'll help you.

As long as the library you're wanting to tweak is not locked of course.


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 5, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> The tone quality of the 6th octave leans towards the softer side, and the ff/fff register has less attack and loudness. Conversely the 7th octave - C#7 to G7, sticks out by being too loud. However, using the


Mike - I did some testing with the top 8 velocity layers of octaves 6 & 7. The tone of these layers definitely becomes slightly more mellow as you move from the 5th octave towards the top end of the piano. But I think that is probably how this piano sounds in real life - especially as the tonal change is so consistent over these top octaves. So there simply isn't any more "bite" or brightness to bring out (unless I EQ the brightness artificially). The overly loud C#7 to G7 that's bugging you however, is easily tamed - let's fix this (and no, you're not being too picky).

Just to confirm that I'm working on the right note-velocities, would you mind recording yourself and looking in your sequencer to see exactly the point at which the velocities become too loud?

eg. C#7 to G7, midi velocity 100 and higher.


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## jdg78 (Nov 5, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Don't wait a moment longer
> 
> Most of your tweaks will involve adjusting volume of notes that stick out, or the sensitivity of particular notes, swapping out a "jangly" note that bugs you - that sort of thing.
> So you would focus on the Mapping Editor and the use of Envelopes - you wouldn't need to learn much else.
> ...


Thanks for the info - very helpful!

Given that the holiday sale season is right around the corner, I’ll probably wait to see if any discounts come up before purchasing, but it’s definitely going on my Christmas list.


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## Mike Stone (Nov 6, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Mike - I did some testing with the top 8 velocity layers of octaves 6 & 7. The tone of these layers definitely becomes slightly more mellow as you move from the 5th octave towards the top end of the piano. But I think that is probably how this piano sounds in real life - especially as the tonal change is so consistent over these top octaves. So there simply isn't any more "bite" or brightness to bring out (unless I EQ the brightness artificially). The overly loud C#7 to G7 that's bugging you however, is easily tamed - let's fix this (and no, you're not being too picky).
> 
> Just to confirm that I'm working on the right note-velocities, would you mind recording yourself and looking in your sequencer to see exactly the point at which the velocities become too loud?
> 
> eg. C#7 to G7, midi velocity 100 and higher.


Good to see a fellow perfectionist.  The notes in the 7th octave mentioned above, becomes too loud at velocity 98 and above. You can hear a more abrupt change there, compared to the stronger velocities in the rest of the keyboard range. Afaik this is the last problem area to correct, as long as one uses the out 1/2 + player mics. Thanks!


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 7, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> The notes in the 7th octave mentioned above, becomes too loud at velocity 98 and above. You can hear a more abrupt change there, compared to the stronger velocities in the rest of the keyboard range. Afaik this is the last problem area to correct, as long as one uses the out 1/2 + player mics. Thanks!


New .nki attached.

Each mic reacts uniquely to the treble octaves - which is natural (and useful) - so I didn't try to "tailor" the note-volumes for each mic - the levels were adjusted equally for all 5 mics, for C#7 to G7 (C4 = middle C) - taking care to preserve the incremental velocity-ratios that were originally so well captured.

IMHO the two most useful parameters on this piano are the Velocity Strength knob (Settings page) and the dynamics envelope adjuster (circled in red below). Careful tweaking of these two controls will cover a _lot_ of ground.


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## Mike Stone (Nov 8, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> New .nki attached.
> 
> Each mic reacts uniquely to the treble octaves - which is natural (and useful) - so I didn't try to "tailor" the note-volumes for each mic - the levels were adjusted equally for all 5 mics, for C#7 to G7 (C4 = middle C) - taking care to preserve the incremental velocity-ratios that were originally so well captured.
> 
> IMHO the two most useful parameters on this piano are the Velocity Strength knob (Settings page) and the dynamics envelope adjuster (circled in red below). Careful tweaking of these two controls will cover a _lot_ of ground.


Great job, Mike! This one works very well, including the upper octaves. I recommend everyone owning this library, to download this last file. Much appreciated, and well worth the effort.


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## poly6 (Nov 19, 2022)

Anybody know whether PV will be doing Black Friday? I'd love a deal on the 300 Grand.


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## Jazzpunk (Nov 25, 2022)

poly6 said:


> Anybody know whether PV will be doing Black Friday? I'd love a deal on the 300 Grand.


Looks like everything except 300 Grand is currently on sale.


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 25, 2022)

Jason has stated that 300 will be no cheaper as it is already priced very aggressively.


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## 3ptguitarist (Nov 25, 2022)

Does anyone know if there's a way to get a very dry signal out of the CFX standard version? Almost every sample I've heard sounds wet one way or another.


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## ivan.gil (Nov 26, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> New .nki attached.
> 
> Each mic reacts uniquely to the treble octaves - which is natural (and useful) - so I didn't try to "tailor" the note-volumes for each mic - the levels were adjusted equally for all 5 mics, for C#7 to G7 (C4 = middle C) - taking care to preserve the incremental velocity-ratios that were originally so well captured.
> 
> IMHO the two most useful parameters on this piano are the Velocity Strength knob (Settings page) and the dynamics envelope adjuster (circled in red below). Careful tweaking of these two controls will cover a _lot_ of ground.


Hi Mike. I congratulate you for the great work you do. Your love for music can be seen in the time you spend turning something good into something truly wonderful.
I am new in this world and I would like to ask you if this most recent nki contains all the improvements that the previous nki had, that is to say that I do not need to download the previous nki. Thanks !!!


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## Jazzpunk (Nov 28, 2022)

Anyone here own both the Production Grand and the 300 Grand? If so, which instrument is capable of a less ambient/more intimate sound (assuming Production Grand as it was recorded in a smaller studio)? Which instrument "feels better" to play? Is there room for both of these pianos in one's library or would there be too much cross over?


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## Mike McCarthy (Nov 28, 2022)

ivan.gil said:


> Hi Mike. I congratulate you for the great work you do. Your love for music can be seen in the time you spend turning something good into something truly wonderful.
> I am new in this world and I would like to ask you if this most recent nki contains all the improvements that the previous nki had, that is to say that I do not need to download the previous nki. Thanks !!!


Thank you for your kind words!

Yes, the latest nki contains all the improvements from the previous nki files, plus some additional tweaks - it replaces all the previous nki files.


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 29, 2022)

3ptguitarist said:


> I made a brief comparison video between VSL CFX, NI Grandeur, and Roland's Supernatural piano on their FA-08. I tried to play on a dry settings for all of them, but I'm not too knowledgeable on piano vst parameters so I didn't look at everything to make the sound dry. I'm also a beginner at piano so I didn't play anything too fancy. I did this because I've been interested in purchasing the VSL CFX, but I've recently noticed the piano samples I heard weren't that dry and it bothers me. So I downloaded the demo to test it out.
> 
> What I noticed is that the VSL and NI Grandeur both have the sound of the room it was recorded in. The Supernatural piano is the most dry, but I think the sound was made with a combination of samples and modeling. I have been hoping to make the VSL CFX very dry, but I can still hear some of the room it was recorded in. I also had some difficulty getting the velocity right on the Roland FA-08 I was using, so I just randomly found a spot on the curve that gave me a good enough sound for the time being. Another thing I noticed is that the VSL CFX sounds like an electric keyboard like a rhodes when playing higher notes at low velocities. I don't know if that's normal or if I'm missing some parameters or something else.
> 
> Anyways, what do you all think? Is there a way to make the VSL CFX sound even more dry?



This is a thread about Production Voices’ CFX, the 300 Grand, not VSL’s CFX. I think your question would be better posed in its own thread.


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## 3ptguitarist (Nov 29, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> This is a thread about Production Voices’ CFX, the 300 Grand, not VSL’s CFX. I think your question would be better posed in its own thread.


oops. I totally misread and misunderstood the title. I thought it was VSL CFX. I'll find another place to post.


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## Jazzpunk (Dec 1, 2022)

3ptguitarist said:


> Does anyone know if there's a way to get a very dry signal out of the CFX standard version? Almost every sample I've heard sounds wet one way or another.


Anyone have time to post an example like this? Would be greatly appreciated!


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## RMH (Dec 4, 2022)

The 300 compact version is on sale now.

I put in an inquiry email, but there is no answer from the company. I need help from these thread users.

1. Are the compact version and the full version of Velocity layers the same?

2. Can I cross-grade the full version after purchasing the compact now? I wonder if there is a discount.


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## Fleer (Dec 4, 2022)

Info regarding velocities (12/36) is available on their dedicated webpage 








300 Grand Compact - Production Voices


Sampled Performance Grand virtual piano. VST Piano sampled in a real piano performance hall for authentic piano performance.




www.productionvoices.com


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 4, 2022)

RMH said:


> The 300 compact version is on sale now.
> 
> I put in an inquiry email, but there is no answer from the company. I need help from these thread users.
> 
> ...


1. No

2. When you upgrade, the price for the 300 Full will be $150 minus what you paid for the Compact.


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## Mike Stone (Dec 5, 2022)

How does the compact version of 300 Grand compare to the full version, in terms of tonal balance and smooth dynamics? Does anyone here have both? The most "cut-down" preset in the full version has 20 velocity layers, this one has 12. Seems like a great deal for $39.

Thanks.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 5, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> How does the compact version of 300 Grand compare to the full version, in terms of tonal balance and smooth dynamics? Does anyone here have both? The most "cut-down" preset in the full version has 20 velocity layers, this one has 12. Seems like a great deal for $39.
> 
> Thanks.


I bought the Compact when it came out because I was looking for a CFX. It is worth every penny of $39. However, I did not find it satisfying enough, and I picked up the Garritan. I remember feeling like I just couldn't quite get there, but I liked the sound. I put the upcoming Full version on my radar, and in the meantime, the Garritan became my go-to.

The decided disadvantage of the Compact is that it uses the Plogue player, which is more or less Aria.


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## DawdlePuss (Dec 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I remember feeling like I just couldn't quite get there, but I liked the sound.


Is this sentence about the Garritan or about the Compact?


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 5, 2022)

DawdlePuss said:


> Is this sentence about the Garritan or about the Compact?


Compact.


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## DawdlePuss (Dec 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Compact.


Gotcha. What are your feelings on the Garritan?


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## Fleer (Dec 5, 2022)

@Mike McCarthy 
Any news from the developer on a new version?


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 5, 2022)

DawdlePuss said:


> Gotcha. What are your feelings on the Garritan?


I really like the Garritan, but I always feel like I can't quite escape that room. It is a lovely, lovely space, but you're married to it with the Garritan.

I instantly loved the 300 Grand, sonically speaking, but until @Mike McCarthy tinkered under the hood, I found it a bit of a bear to play.

I might feel very differently about lots of different pianos if I had something like the VPC1, but I don't. So for me, the 300 Grand is likely to be my main for a long time.


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## Mike McCarthy (Dec 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I really like the Garritan, but I always feel like I can't quite escape that room. It is a lovely, lovely space, but you're married to it with the Garritan.
> 
> I instantly loved the 300 Grand, sonically speaking, but until @Mike McCarthy tinkered under the hood, I found it a bit of a bear to play.
> 
> I might feel very differently about lots of different pianos if I had something like the VPC1, but I don't. So for me, the 300 Grand is likely to be my main for a long time.


Agree with Jett Hitt - this is a very beautiful piano that has replaced Garritan CFX in my template (although I still use Garritan if I need a "roomier", more aggressive piano sound).

Latest tweaked nki is attached (v2.3).
1.fixed a slightly "jangly" F#5 (if C4 is middle C)
2.fixed a slightly "unresponsive/dull" B5 that didn't match the singing tone of the surrounding notes
(both these notes were not sampling/programming errors; they were simply how the piano sounded - I just found them annoying. If you prefer the original notes, use the nki "My 300 Grand - Balanced 2" on page 14 of this thread).
3.Found a very nice IR among the IR's provided by Jason which added some useful early reflections - helpful in a dense mix - it gives a sense of "presence" to the CFX in much the same way that the Hammersmith's tree mics bring the studio's room reflections into play. I've set it as the default, along with the Close 1 mics + the Outside 2 mics (which for me, make the most beautifully detailed yet full-sounding mic combination). 

This piano can sound dry & intimate - but also highly ambient if you use the Stage/Distant mics (which I seldom use).


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## Fleer (Dec 5, 2022)

Is Jason going to implement these ameliorations?


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## DawdlePuss (Dec 6, 2022)

Mike McCarthy said:


> Agree with Jett Hitt - this is a very beautiful piano that has replaced Garritan CFX in my template (although I still use Garritan if I need a "roomier", more aggressive piano sound).
> 
> Latest tweaked nki is attached (v2.3).
> 1.fixed a slightly "jangly" F#5 (if C4 is middle C)
> ...


How do you feel about the playability? I have tried quite a few at this point, and I have personally yet to play a piano that feels comfortable/flexible in Kontakt. I have ModernU which plays like a dream but doesn't have the warm sound I crave, Ravenscroft which fills in about the same space as ModernU, and Xperimenta Due which has a pleasant sound but I struggle with the way it plays. I've tried all of the VSL Pianos and they are close-ish in feel but I still feel like ModernU and Ravenscroft play quite a bit better, and Noire was a quite good sound but it wasn't responsive like I'm looking for. I haven't had the opportunity to play Garritan CFX, and I have mostly avoided it due to the lack of sales and the inability to return/exchange it.


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## Mike McCarthy (Dec 6, 2022)

DawdlePuss said:


> How do you feel about the playability? I have tried quite a few at this point, and I have personally yet to play a piano that feels comfortable/flexible in Kontakt. I have ModernU which plays like a dream but doesn't have the warm sound I crave, Ravenscroft which fills in about the same space as ModernU, and Xperimenta Due which has a pleasant sound but I struggle with the way it plays. I've tried all of the VSL Pianos and they are close-ish in feel but I still feel like ModernU and Ravenscroft play quite a bit better, and Noire was a quite good sound but it wasn't responsive like I'm looking for. I haven't had the opportunity to play Garritan CFX, and I have mostly avoided it due to the lack of sales and the inability to return/exchange it.


I find it every bit as nice to play as the Garritan CFX (which always gets highly praised for playability) - I think the 32 velocity layers has something to do with it, particularly as they were so evenly sampled from ppp to fff. This piano was very well recorded. The fact that I could find only two notes that bugged me says quite a lot - and they're now fixed .

Maybe I can put it another way: when I'm sitting with my eyes closed and improvising using Noire, Hammersmith or Garritan, I hear things that remind me that I'm using a sampled piano (as pleasing as these libs sound, don't get me wrong). With 300 Grand I find myself immersed in the sound of a real piano - not hyped in any way - and surprisingly intimate for a big CFX. Beautifully responsive. Nothing will be like the real thing, but this one just sounds closer to what I'm used to hearing when I record a real grand. In very exposed solo playing there is some noise on lower velocity layers that can build up on long, pedalled passages - but some light denoising takes care of this. I don't hear any noise when it's in a mix.


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## CeDur (Dec 7, 2022)

The more I play it the more the noise bothers me. It's strange, since other PV piano libraries are very, very clean, with no noticable noise.


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## Jazzpunk (Dec 7, 2022)

CeDur said:


> The more I play it the more the noise bothers me. It's strange, since other PV piano libraries are very, very clean, with no noticable noise.


What noise issues are you experiencing with this library?


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## davinwv (Dec 7, 2022)

Jazzpunk said:


> What noise issues are you experiencing with this library?


I think he's referring to the noise on low velocity layers that @Mike McCarthy describes here:






New piano library - Yamaha CFX from Production Voices


Compact. Gotcha. What are your feelings on the Garritan?




vi-control.net


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## Mike McCarthy (Dec 7, 2022)

CeDur said:


> The more I play it the more the noise bothers me. It's strange, since other PV piano libraries are very, very clean, with no noticable noise.


Yes - this is my only remaining gripe with this piano. Hopefully this will be addressed when Jason is well enough to work again.

I spent a lot of time creating a denoise preset that fixes this (but on playback only of course) - happy to share my preset if you have Waves X-noise (or Z-noise).

But it really shouldn't be necessary to have to do this...


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## wiscoexpat (Dec 12, 2022)

This piano has my attention! Along with others in this thread, I’m looking forward to knowing that an update is incoming from the developer. Sounds like there’s so much potential here.

This past week, after much shopping around for a great Yamaha C7, I settled on the Production Voices “Production Grand 2 LE” and couldn’t be happier. (Currently on sale for just $59, btw…) The bass _thunders_ and the clarity is unreal. The instrument may be a bit pointed and forward for some, but my musical interests are primarily indie and pop, so it’s a marvelous fit for me.

Has anyone played the Production Voices C7 alongside their newer CFX release? I’d be interested to hear a direct comparison, since the C7 is already so, so good.


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## CeDur (Dec 13, 2022)

I have both. 300 Grand is objectively better, more complex and detailed library, but I prefer Production Grand 2 mainly due to the instrument sampled. I'm more after bright (C7) sound. Most people will probably prefer CFX.


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## davinwv (Jan 4, 2023)

Any update on the "official update" from Production Voices now that the holidays are over and Jason has (presumably) had some time to heal from his accident?


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## wiscoexpat (Jan 4, 2023)

I'd also welcome additional news!

I purchased 300 Grand -- my second library from Jason at Production Voices -- a few weeks ago, and it sounds _phenomenal_. I've never played an actual CFX, but I legitimately feel as if I'm in the room with this one. As others have said, it's not without a few velocity issues, although the fix a few posts back from @Mike McCarthy goes a long way toward addressing these concerns, if temporarily.

300 Grand has quickly become a favorite among my many, many piano libraries (I'm not admitting that I have a problem, but I may have a problem...), so I'm eager to see it receive additional attention.


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## LTS (Jan 5, 2023)

In my piano template I have the Garritan CFX, the VSL CFX and now the 300 GRAND.

With a better balance between low and higher notes and a few bugs corrected, GRAND 300 could even take the lead... what I would have never believed... the potential is really there... congrats to Production Voices!

So yes, the famous update from Jason will be really more than welcomed!


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## jdg78 (Jan 5, 2023)

I also hope that an update is in the works, however I did notice a thread in a Pianoworld forum where a user commented that they recently purchased a older Production Voices piano (Concert Grand LE) which has a similar issue with the 2 upper octaves being noticeably softer than the rest of the range. 

I've never tried the Concert Grand LE, so can't verify if this is in fact the case, but if true it makes me considerably more skeptical that this issue is going to be rectified in a future update. 

In the meantime, I am very grateful for Mike McCarthy's .nki edits, which really save this from being an also-ran into a very capable VI, but at the same time I don't feel comfortable recommending others invest in this unless there is a permanent fix from the developers end.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 5, 2023)

I was pretty gungho with this piano for quite a while, but I have to admit that I have returned to the Garritan CFX. I am always using the piano in the context of an orchestra, and the 300 just won't cut through in the upper registers, which is ironic because, in real life, it is the lower portion of the register that the orchestra will swallow.


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## LTS (Jan 5, 2023)

jdg78 said:


> I also hope that an update is in the works, however I did notice a thread in a Pianoworld forum where a user commented that they recently purchased a older Production Voices piano (Concert Grand LE) which has a similar issue with the 2 upper octaves being noticeably softer than the rest of the range.
> 
> I've never tried the Concert Grand LE, so can't verify if this is in fact the case, but if true it makes me considerably more skeptical that this issue is going to be rectified in a future update.
> 
> In the meantime, I am very grateful for Mike McCarthy's .nki edits, which really save this from being an also-ran into a very capable VI, but at the same time I don't feel comfortable recommending others invest in this unless there is a permanent fix from the developers end.


I have to admit that I had to remove the Grand Concert (full version) from my template and never really used it in any composition. The basses were sounding really weird to my ears :-(
But the new 300 Grand CFX, well... I compared it note by note with my old faithful Garritan CFX and the recently purchased VSL CFX (which sounds surely great but needs some tweaking re tuning and velocity curve to limit the metallic sound of some notes) and I have to admit that some mics are offering an "alternative" high quality sound which I could not live without... of course I need to wait for Jason's official update before being able to use it in a proper solo piano track to be released commercially...


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