# Velocity x-fade and volume CC controllers?



## Pantonal (Sep 12, 2018)

I've been working with CSS since the summer in Logic X and am not getting the results I want. I've tried drawing in CC1 and it just doesn't give me the volume changes I would expect. Even at zero I get audio. Is volume and velocity x-fade 1 controller or more than 1? Is there a way to make one CC do both or is there a good reason to keep them separate?

BTW, just got the 8dio muted strings on sale, they make it clear they have two separate CC controls, but they can be linked. However, despite having the link icon active it doesn't seem to work that way. In fact CC1 doesn't do anything in that lib. This old geezer is getting confused and frustrated.


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## Kony (Sep 12, 2018)

Try C11 Expression


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## Pantonal (Sep 13, 2018)

Thanks for the quick response, is there an easy way in Logic to copy the data from one cc and paste it into another?


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## Kony (Sep 13, 2018)

You should be able to select the data in CC1, copy it, then paste in CC11 Expression area.


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## Rctec (Sep 13, 2018)

Cc 11 is expression of Amplitude. Cc1 is timbral and dynamics - and of course interacts with amplitude as well. Cc7 is Volume. Like faders in a mixer. Rtfm!
H


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## Kony (Sep 13, 2018)

Or put another way:



Rctec said:


> cc 7 = Volume (for balancing your tracks in a mixer against each other and setting up the proper gain structure)
> cc 11 = Expression in the amplitude domain only
> cc 1 = Modulation (used to be Vibrato on most synth) but now is really Frequency (Timbre) and Amplitude combined.
> But I cheat with my cc 11 and make notes impossibly quiet and loud. In other words, I use cc 11 as a 'human' compressor...


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## Pantonal (Sep 14, 2018)

Rctec said:


> Cc 11 is expression of Amplitude. Cc1 is timbral and dynamics - and of course interacts with amplitude as well. Cc7 is Volume. Like faders in a mixer. Rtfm!
> H


I have read the manual for both CSS and the 8dio sordino strings they don't make these distinctions nearly as clear as Kony. I posted this in the Newbie Questions forum hoping to be treated gently and fortunately most did.


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## Kony (Sep 14, 2018)

I know what you mean - some developers assume too much and leave out a lot of detail in their manuals. I recently had difficulty trying to work out how to add articulations in a multi patch for OT libraries - the info was not in the manuals or the dev's website. 

I only found out how to add the articulations to the multi patch by watching a Daniel James walkthrough - and Daniel James only found out by asking his live audience while broadcasting on Twitch. Honestly, the mind boggles as to why the manuals don't cover all the bases.


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## Pantonal (Sep 14, 2018)

Thanks Kony, someday I'll understand what you just posted. At this time I'm assuming an issue with Orchestral Tools and adding articulations. Is a multi patch where you have multiple channels on a midi track?

So just now I've tried selecting the cc1 controller data and copying it. Then I switch to cc7 (expression) and paste, but the data doesn't go to cc7 it goes back on cc1, so obviously I'm missing something crucial. Is there some place to go for training in Logic X? Oh wait I do have a Udemy course I paid for maybe I should see if that has a section on continuous controllers. Bear in mind the version of Logic I was using before X (now 10.4) was 5.51 on a PC.

Thanks again.


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## Kony (Sep 14, 2018)

I'm on Cubase so I'm unsure about accessing the CC lanes in Logic. This link may be useful though:

https://ask.audio/articles/why-how-to-view-multiple-controller-lanes-in-logic-pro-x

NB I mainly use CC1 and CC11 only - I tend to avoid CC7 (volume) unless I'm doing a fade out or something like that, and even then I prefer to use the instrument channel fader option as opposed to CC7. CC11 (Expression) is useful for moderate volume adjustments to mimic the "expression" of a performer. 

The bit about multi articulations is best explained in the following video - it's to do with having more than one articulation loaded into a single instrument instance:


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## Vik (Sep 14, 2018)

Pantonal said:


> Thanks for the quick response, is there an easy way in Logic to copy the data from one cc and paste it into another?




If you select an automation parameter with the alt key pressed down, here...







...you'll see this dialog which allows you to convert eg CC7 values to CC1 values etc:




Regarding CC1 working or not, make sure that Velocity X-Fade is set to CC1 here:


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## Pantonal (Sep 15, 2018)

Hi Vik, Thank you so much for that. I'll give that a try in a little bit. This forum is awesome!!

Also thanks to Kony for the video explaining multi articulations. I'll plan to watch it right after I mow my lawn.


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## Pantonal (Sep 15, 2018)

ARGH! I selected an automation parameter with the alt key pressed and got the dialog box you indicated, but clicking on copy and convert didn't do anything. Then I tried selecting the automation I wanted to copy and convert and clicked on the automation parameter I wanted to convert the automation data to and that didn't work. I'm feeling old and dumb. So exactly how would I convert cc1 data to cc11 data in a region or track? FYI, velocity x-fade is indeed set to cc1 in Kontakt so I've got that part figured out. FWIW, the help information in Logic is useless on this subject (i.e I tried RTFM).


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## Saxer (Sep 15, 2018)

The dynamic range of CSS is a bit limited for my taste too. One easy way to extend the range from (nearly) silence to ff is using a midi plugin in Logic that translates CC1 into CC11 (while keeping CC1 data). I use a Modifier Midi Plugin shown below. The ranges can be adjusted to taste, here I set it to 50% additional dynamic range following the mod wheel curve. 50% may be a bit too much, 30% works well as far as I remember (I'm on my laptop at the moment and can't verify it) but you better adjust it to your liking. That added value of 5 is for having a soft signal even with mod wheel completely down. If you set it to zero you get full "to silence".

The only thing to remember is to keep the mod wheel on full range when using velocity controlled articulations (stacc/spicc etc) because they don't go to full level with CC11 down. I personally divide long notes (CC1 controlled) on one track while having the short articulations on another.


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## NoamL (Sep 15, 2018)

@Pantonal In my opinion you should *use CC11 very, very little for strings, brass and woodwinds.*

I know this clashes with the opinions of:

the majority of this forum
the majority of film composers who've released any "behind the scenes" videos

even the composer who mentored me when I first moved to LA and taught me 90% of what I know about VI's
If you ask any of these people, they will say they have CC1 and CC11 on two faders right next to each other. They move them at the same time with two fingers, so that the volume increases and decreases together with the dynamics.

With respect to all those people, I disagree. It's what I was taught to do, but I gradually moved away from it until now I rarely touch CC11 at all.

(I'm gonna assume you understand what CC1, CC7 and CC11 do from the other posts in this thread)

Using CC11 and CC1 at the same time is counterproductive because dynamics already have inherent volume differences. A violinist playing _pp_ produces a tone that is not only more soft and gentle than _ff_, it's also much quieter. Most modern & well programmed libraries (CSS is definitely on this list) have accurately preserved the volumes from their recording sessions. So just by _not touching any volume controller_, you get realistic results.

Using a volume controller together with a dynamic controller is like recording a real orchestra and then automating volume moves on top of the real recording. Some mockups I've heard sound like if someone was playing you a CD of Tchaikovsky and constantly twiddling the volume knob to make the epic tuttis even more epic. It's a cheap trick and the magic goes away once you notice it...

Of course real film score recordings have volume moves but it's not adding a volume swell to every string passage, it's subtle things like mixing in more spot mics to bring out a line's definition (or bold things like HZ's production techniques, but I'll talk about that in a minute).

The reason people use CC11 a lot is in my opinion because of a couple of factors.

First they're trying to achieve extreme dynamics (pp/fff) from libraries that have undersampled the instrument and haven't captured its full dynamic range. I don't want to name any devs but there are some libraries out there that barely have captured the range between _mp_ and _f_. Now, using CC11 can be a good way to fade down a _p_ or _pp_ sample to approximate the diminuendo at the end of a note (even to _niente_). This is one of the only ways I use CC11. However, when people try to "volume push" forte samples to fortissimo or triple f, it always sounds really fake, because the actual strain & energy of the musician just isn't in the sample. French horns playing _ff_ just don't sound like _f.
_
Second, balancing libraries is hard. Just to give you an example, I have been using this template for my strings... although it's always a work in progress...







If you try to replicate this, you'll hear that the microphones sound _approximately_ like they all came from the same recording session. Yet there is a 12dBFS difference between some of these mics. Creating a super balanced template is hard. CC11 is kind of an always-available fix if you play something and it sounds too loud or too quiet, you can "push" it forward or back in the mix.

The third reason is just impatience IMO. People want their music to be epic and moving but they overdo it. A telltale sign of an unrealistic mockup is when I hear people using volume swells to bring out more emotion, with the result that the strings play extremely "swoopy" crescendos and decrescendos that are unidiomatic compared to how real musicians perform. They are impatient with the dynamic range & idiomatic performance techniques of real-life musicians, and they want everything to be "larger than life" like film music, while ignoring that if you carefully study film music it's really all about orchestration. You make things sound bigger by giving them support.

In this piece (listen at 2:40):



the strings are not even at full dynamics in the big finale. They are at mf and crescendo a bit in the middle of the first phrase! That's what's marked in the score... it sounds amazing because JW and Conrad Pope are geniuses. 

Doubling the string line with a very melodic trumpet playing only mezzo forte in the middle register, is one of those orchestration tricks from the real world that don't really cross people's minds in sample land. It adds solidity to the violins but also makes them more silvery and edgy.

I used CSS in a mockup of the same piece:



Of course everything I have said is not a point against *production* techniques like having a recording of a very soft bass drum and adding huge gain to it, or putting a solo cello out front of a huge string+brass unison (like what HZ does all the time in his scores). You can do anything you want with the _base volume_ of musical recordings, and for that, CC7 is a great tool. Although I prefer to automate the volume of bounced stems in a separate mix session.


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## clisma (Sep 15, 2018)

Pantonal said:


> Thanks for the quick response, is there an easy way in Logic to copy the data from one cc and paste it into another?


Quickest way I’ve found to do it is in the piano roll.

In the CC area below the notes, hold the ALT key and double click. This will select all CC data in the region. Copy it.
Then press “E.” That will open the Event Editor in your sidebar. The CC data you just selected and copied will be highlighted in blue. Now you can change its CC number to any other by just changing it in the drop down menu of that Event Editor.

Once that is done, you’ll see that back in the piano roll, the CC data is now gone. This is when you paste back in the piano roll what you copied (or possibly use “Paste at Original Position” in the Edit menu if the paste come out looking jagged).

Hope the explanation is clear enough...


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## NoamL (Sep 15, 2018)

With all that being said, if you MUST HAVE a link between CC1 and CC11...

there is a much easier way than *copy pasting* data from one CC to another! we can get the computer to do it for us 

try this script I just wrote


```
var BottomValue = 0;
var Threshold = 50;

function HandleMIDI(event)
{
if (event instanceof ControlChange && event.number == 1) {
   var ConvertValue = (event.value/127)*(127-BottomValue)+BottomValue
   var NewExpression = new ControlChange;
   NewExpression.number = 11;
   if (event.value > Threshold) {NewExpression.value = 127}
   else {NewExpression.value = ConvertValue};
   NewExpression.channel = event.channel;
   NewExpression.send();
   event.send();
}
else event.send();
}
```

plug this code into an instance of MIDI Scripter. In your instrument channel, look at the box called "MIDI FX" right above "Kontakt 5" - click and drag down to select "Scripter." Then in the window that opens, replace the text with a copy of the script above.

*When the modwheel is above the Threshold, CSS will always play back full volume. When the modwheel is below the threshold, the volume will gradually fade down to the BottomValue. *

You can change the value "BottomValue" and "Threshold", at the top of the script, to be whatever numbers you want.

A BottomValue of 0 (as I've currently set it) will make it silent when the modwheel is at 0.

A Threshold of 127 will mean the volume is fading across the entire modwheel. However I really really don't recommend this because CC11 is logarithmic - at the halfway point on the modwheel you will be fading the volume by 18dBFS if I recall the math correctly. I have set the Threshold to 50 which is a more reasonable value - the script will only start fading the volume when you move the modwheel below 50.


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## Saxer (Sep 15, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Using CC11 and CC1 at the same time is counterproductive because dynamics already have inherent volume differences. A violinist playing _pp_ produces a tone that is not only more soft and gentle than _ff_, it's also much quieter. Most modern & well programmed libraries (CSS is definitely on this list) have accurately preserved the volumes from their recording sessions. So just by _not touching any volume controller_, you get realistic results.


In an ideal world I would agree. But it always depends on the dynamic range of a library (if the samples are precompressed by tape recording, which volume curve the use to transfer from one dynamic layer to the next, if the dynamic layers have a balanced level) and the controller you use and also the performers preferences. The simple 'to silence' function for example is very helpful for me though I know that there is no zero-level in playing instruments. When an instrument is played it starts to make sound but it sounds more natural to fade in a chord in when there's no initial attack. At least for me. CCS's dynamic range is too limited for my taste (I'm not alone with that opinion). Cinesamples and LASS libraries need additional CC11 too (or tweaking). Spitfire less. VSL is adjustable. Same with OT's 'to silence' feature. I don't use CC11 for those.
But it also depends on the workflow and hardware (mod wheel, pedal, breath controller etc). A lot of Mockuppers use CC1 and CC11 and get great results. So I think you can't say there's a right or wrong for everyone.
But I agree that it's easy to overdo it with CC11.


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## Pantonal (Sep 16, 2018)

Noam and Saxer, thank you that's a lot to process. I will say that I've heard what Naom was talking about regarding misuse of CC11, but I tried automating just CC1 and it wasn't enough. I'm beginning to suspect that copying and pasting one curve to the other parameter will prove too much, but I'm going to try it just to see.


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