# Composing music for video games



## Mike Marino (May 5, 2013)

Hey guys,

So I've read numerous posts here at VI (and tbroughout the web) discussing how extremely crowded the music composing field is nowadays and was wondering: does fhe same hold true for video game composing as well?

Mike


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## Stephen Baysted (May 5, 2013)

Yes it does. The world, his wife, and their dog seem to want a piece of the action. 

Games composition can be a radically different discipline to film scoring though (often it's non-linear, not through composed) and, depending upon the type of project, the technical demands can be considerable (music implementation via FMOD, WWise etc). 

Another thing to bear in mind is the general lack of publishing backend, though fees do tend to compensate somewhat for that. 

Cheers


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## Samulis (May 5, 2013)

Game music is arguably easier than film music to write too, and more accessible by more genres. You don't need to know how to sync or such.

Also, making games is becoming an increasingly accessible thing for amateurs. There are programs now that allow an individual to make a full game without killing themselves in a decent amount of time. 

The nice thing about game scoring along with that is that even low-no budget games can look good, while it's nearly impossible for a low-no budget film to look good... and even a beginner composer can find work with a decent-looking game as long as his music is right. The demand for small-budget game scores is fairly high on sites like Newgrounds, where I do most of my work, but don't plan on earning a living doing those. It's a very busy and almost as cut-throat landscape as film scoring, even down here in the little league.


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## Stephen Baysted (May 5, 2013)

Samulis @ Sun May 05 said:


> Game music is arguably easier than film music to write too, and more accessible by more genres. You don't need to know how to sync or such.



Apart from when you're scoring FMV cut scenes etc,


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## Samulis (May 5, 2013)

Stephen Baysted @ Sun May 05 said:


> Samulis @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Game music is arguably easier than film music to write too, and more accessible by more genres. You don't need to know how to sync or such.
> ...



yeah, or when "dynamic music" is required. Fun Fun Fun! :roll:


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## impressions (May 5, 2013)

I don't know if writing for AAA games is a game changer in terms of income. Perhaps those that do can comment on that. 
My positive comment,
I've scored for about a dozen of games only and even though it is very crowded, it's also full of fresh start-up games and I'm talking daily, sometimes by the minute.
The toughest thing as in all gigs, is getting them.
The fact that I had a few theater shows and feature experience didn't really impress the developer. Quite rightly so, they want evidence of delivery in that particular genre they're developing.

And I disagree about game music being "easier" than films. Getting a 1 minute loop played for 40 minutes of gameplay without it sounding irritating- in the style, with your touch and some originality- isn't easy all. 
Making good music is hard in any platform, it requires the same honesty, energy and dedication to get it 'right'.


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## Samulis (May 5, 2013)

impressions @ Sun May 05 said:


> And I disagree about game music being "easier" than films. Getting a 1 minute loop played for 40 minutes of gameplay without it sounding irritating- in the style, with your touch and some originality- isn't easy all.
> Making good music is hard in any platform, it requires the same honesty, energy and dedication to get it 'right'.



I respectfully disagree. One minute of music is still only one minute of music. Making it loop cleanly is just a matter of learning to make the piece flat enough yet still with enough dynamics without being boring... literally anyone and their mother can make a game score, while only people with at least some advanced know-how can score a film correctly. I've seen major multi-million view flash games (such as Louissi's famous Age of War franchise, which use Waterflame's "Glorious Morning", a piece that was originally for Castle Crashers, and does not loop) that use audio that doesn't even loop or even stock audio and are still very well received.


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2013)

Samulis @ Sun May 05 said:


> Game music is arguably easier than film music to write too, ... You don't need to know how to sync or such.



*lol* Are you kidding me? Say, do you got these of your arguments from experience or is that some cheap assumption?

First of all I agree with you that there is a lot of crap music in the gamesworld, but so is in film too!

I am writing music for games since around 8 years now and I worked on titles like Crysis2, John Woo's Stranglehold, Kinect Rush, Battleforge, Runes of Magic and so on ... and I also had a pleasure to work on a lot of movie like cutscenes but also movie scoring and there are both big challenges in writing music for games.

- the amount of music which has to be written does in some games exceed what you would write for a movie. Sometimes a game score is like 90-120 mins of pure music!

- the music in games is mostly NOT linear. You have to write music and make it all fit together. The movie is always the same!

- the music in games requires you to know about well done looping. It is not just being able to create some start and stop point. In can get pretty deep, especially if you have to deal with reverb tails having to be cut at the beginning and then deal with like 2 or 3 subtracks for these tracks too.


Many people think that it is easier to write music for games. I get regular emails of people asking me if they can drop them a company, a person or even a phone number or email adresses of people they can contact in order to get into the industry: Sure guys, I let you know everything to become filthy rich and throw myself out of bizz.

Seriously, of course it is very hard to get into a high budget movie, but if you think it is easier to get into a high budget video game, you are simply wrong.

The bizz is crowded equal no matter where you go. It is difficult to get into the top 10 with a poptrack, it is difficult to land regular gigs in the gaming world as the same as it is in the movie world (or get placements in trailers, but I am trying to leave out the licensing bizz since it is more or less a different one).

So to make it short, if you prepare to work in the game industry you should be as passionate and eager as if you would be on film or anywhere else!


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2013)

By the way, sorry for the add comments, but I was roaming a bit on your website, listened to your music and have seen that you are charging 10-35 USD per minute of music? ... sorry to say, but now your arguments make kind of sense!


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> So to make it short, if you prepare to work in the game industry you should be as passionate and eager as if you would be on film or anywhere else!



Although we are rarely the same opinion, but here I agree with you 100%!


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## Samulis (May 5, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> *lol* Are you kidding me? Say, do you got these of your arguments from experience or is that some cheap assumption?
> 
> First of all I agree with you that there is a lot of crap music in the gamesworld, but so is in film too!
> 
> ...



I have these arguments from scoring a half-a-dozen flash games, as well as a few mobile games myself and conducting interviews with a few composers from various levels of the indie end of the industry. Surely not as much as you, but I reckon you haven't scored a low-end game in years if that list above is what you've been working on, and it definitely is a far different world from even three years ago. I'm no professional by any means, but I feel my few experiences are at least worth sharing. Perhaps it's harder in the AAA and upper end of the industry where you work, but on the small-scale side in the present day, it's a slightly different world from what you describe.

For a small game, such as a Flash-based game or mobile game or most 3-8 person development team game perspective, where one would most likely enter and spend their first few years working, here's what I have found things to be. This is just my view; take it cum grano salis if you wish:
- Most small games seem to have under 20 minutes of music; thus you should be able to score one in well under a month. Some even have under 10 minutes.
- Many young and/or new 'developers' of small games think you're willing to write them all that music for free or very cheap, so good luck dealing with those types or letting yourself spend hours on their game score ("Pick two of the three- cheap, fast, good"). Some developers find an amateur to be amazing and can't tell the difference between a trumpet and a tambourine or insist on you copying exactly their favorite Two Steps From Hell song for their game (I have had the latter happen to me multiple times).
- Being passionate and eager are very important too, as with higher up. The only way you will find a job at this level is by going out and messaging developers, even with a few games under your belt, especially for the 'good' jobs.
- Expect composers far better than you to swoop down and steal a good number of the good jobs that you see posted, especially film music students and professionals who are having a lull in working on higher games.
- Never get down when you first start and don't expect to get high jobs at first, especially if you are coming from another realm of composing such as theater or performance. I still don't expect to get high jobs, as I only have a handful of games down. Just keep producing and eventually you'll catch on or give up, hopefully the primary.

Looping is a trick that requires some experimenting to find what works for you dependent upon your case. Some people like cutting the reverb tail after the last note and moving that. Then you run into iOS game developers who have to use .mp3 or .acc, which have a little glitch at the start due to the metadata and encoding issues, so no matter how carefully you loop it, it will always have a little catch. If you (the OP) want to go into game scoring, you'll have to find something that works for you.


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## Ciaran Birch (May 5, 2013)

Samulis @ Sun May 05 said:


> ... literally anyone and their mother can make a game score, while only people with at least some advanced know-how can score a film correctly.



I try stay on the happy side of the arguing fence, but that is probably one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on here. Not only is it a huge insult to all the amazing gaming composers on this forum, but if you seriously think it's that easy to become a AAA composer then you definitely shouldn't want to be in gaming. Let alone if you did, you'd want to be as competent as you could be in all aspects of it. Midi mockups, sound design, how the audio engine will mix your music, how to use FMOD / WWise, looping and reverb tail ends, not to mention getting the correct emotion across to the gamer for 20-30 mins of a level! I am in awe at what these guys can do!

And completely agree with Alex's last short comment!


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## R.Cato (May 5, 2013)

Samulis @ Sun May 05 said:


> I have these arguments from scoring a half-a-dozen flash games, as well as a few mobile games myself and conducting interviews with a few composers from various levels of the indie end of the industry. Surely not as much as you, but I reckon you haven't scored a low-end game in years if that list above is what you've been working on, and it definitely is a far different world from even three years ago. I'm no professional by any means, but I feel my few experiences are at least worth sharing. Perhaps it's harder in the AAA and upper end of the industry where you work, but on the small-scale side in the present day, it's a slightly different world from what you describe.
> 
> For a small game, such as a Flash-based game or mobile game or most 3-8 person development team game perspective, where one would most likely enter and spend their first few years working, here's what I have found things to be. This is just my view; take it cum grano salis if you wish:
> - Most small games seem to have under 20 minutes of music; thus you should be able to score one in well under a month. Some even have under 10 minutes.
> ...



Ok...and again why is writing game music easier than scoring a film? I couldn't find any argument in your post proving that.


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## Ciaran Birch (May 5, 2013)

R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:


> Ok...and again why is writing game music easier than scoring a film? I couldn't find any argument in your post proving that.



+1


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## Ed (May 5, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> Sometimes a game score is like 90-120 mins of pure music!



Or 2 or 3 or even more hours for some crazy games.

Its easier than scoring a film in a certain sense, and films are easier than games in another, they are both challenging for different reasons. Is that too diplomatic? :D


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## Samulis (May 5, 2013)

Note that *all* of my observations are from that of someone well below likely all of you in the food chain, my apologies for not making that completely clear sooner! My remarks have no connection to that of the professional industry whatsoever and I will not even dare to assume anything about the professional worlds of film and game scoring, as I honestly know nothing about them. 

I would invite any of you to come score a few hobbyist-level games and films and see how that works and the kinds of people you meet. I'll even tell the guy who posts "hai can i hzve musik fer my gaem plz I am making a WoW game with my best friend!!! he is funnee" to ask you if you want! I see about a half-dozen of those a month on the forums where I come from.  



R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:


> Ok...and again why is writing game music easier than scoring a film? I couldn't find any argument in your post proving that.



In light of the two sentences I put above the quote, I will, from now on, be absolutely sure to put either 'lower', 'hobbyist', or 'entry-level' next to every occurrence of 'game', 'developer', and 'composer' from now on to reduce further confusion. I really am sorry we are all at such odds here... hopefully this will clear it up.

First, because I see many more game music gigs than film gigs from my little niche on the Newgrounds forums, a center for flash-based media including both games and films, I am less experienced with writing for film so I, in my own opinion, find writing for games easier. I have also personally found writing music to a static image of a game menu or after a playthrough to be far easier and more appealing than making sure your tempo lines up correctly with the right hit in the animation. 

Small hobbyist games take less people and money to produce versus an indie film (I have worked on and am friends with people who have worked on the crews of both. I myself have MADE both by myself). With film, the clock starts ticking the moment the footage starts getting locked, or sometimes even before. With a game, the clock starts as soon as the developer feels there's enough material for the composer to get a good feel.

Many indie films are made for festivals with deadlines and have very very small budgets. Mobile games and Flash games are often created without a set deadline and with the intention of being put up for sponsorship eventually or sold on a store.

With a game, there is less overhead and investment (the production team doesn't need to buy film or batteries or rent equipment, go location scouting, etc.) with most cases as well, so more room to say, pay for a good score. Many small developers I have worked with do it more as a side-hobby from a day job and almost all, even higher up developers, work from home as individuals, working with a variety of different artists, programmers, and composers on different projects, unlike hobbyist filmmakers who often are required to stay with a fairly consistent team. 

Hobbyist animators are arguably even with hobbyist game developers. However, most animators I have worked with like the music before the film, which puts the composer in a bit of a tight deadline. The winner of last year's NATA, one of the most respected and revered tournaments in Flash-based animation, used pre-existing audio in all of his entries, probably because of the tight deadline he was under for completing all the animation and the time syncing he had to work out. I hope that better explains my points.

@ Ciaran- you misread my words... I speak from the bottom of the industry... the place where people enter. Is that not what the OP probably wants to hear about?

I mean no insult to professionals here at all. I am sure in the higher industry, the two industries- music for film and games- are well matched with their own challenges. HOWEVER, as I have said before times, in the hobbyist/lower end of the industry, films definitely require more work to score. I have made 3D animations myself and scored them and also made games myself and scored them and wow, the game was definitely easier to score cleanly, but hey! That's just me. Some people probably find it the other way around, I guess. Fine with me. 

I just figured I'd share my opinions, not start some horrid flame war by a few poorly thought-out statements on my own part with people who are far beyond me in knowledge and ability... I hope this thread can get back to somewhere on track. Sorry all. :oops:

I think Ed sums it up nicely!


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:


> Ok...and again why is writing game music easier than scoring a film? I couldn't find any argument in your post proving that.



It is very much eaier, very much!

Have you ever scored a film and also a game?


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## Samulis (May 5, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> By the way, sorry for the add comments, but I was roaming a bit on your website, listened to your music and have seen that you are charging 10-35 USD per minute of music? ... sorry to say, but now your arguments make kind of sense!



Lol... just found this. I'll just ignore the condescending manner, of course.

Yeah... 
you = big leagues, charge your $200/minute or whatever because you are good enough and have eight years and whatnot behind you.
me = little leagues, charge my... oh god, can you even do groceries on that?  

Like I said, whole different world.


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## R.Cato (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok...and again why is writing game music easier than scoring a film? I couldn't find any argument in your post proving that.
> ...



I am working on both a film by some very aspiring students and an upcomming MMO game at the moment. And my personal experience is that they both have their own challenges to master. Yes, these projects aren't my first ones, but no they aren't my thousandth projects either and none of them is easier than the other.

Have you ever scored a film and a game? If yes pls tell me why writing game music is so much easier than writing a film score.


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

Huh....? Writing a film score isn't easier than writing for a game! Writing music for a film is the most demanding!


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## R.Cato (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> Huh....? Writing a film score isn't easier than writing for a game! Writing music for a film is the most demanding!



Sorry my fault. I actually wanted to say: Pls tell me why writing game music is easier than writing a film score, which seems to be your opinion.


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

Not only my opinion, but fact! Have you ever listened to a queue in a film? (For example....)


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## R.Cato (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> Not only my opinion, but fact! Have you ever listened to a queue in a film? (For example....)



If it is a fact then tell me your facts and prove them!


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2013)

Samulis @ Sun May 05 said:


> Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > *lol* Are you kidding me? Say, do you got these of your arguments from experience or is that some cheap assumption?
> ...




Well, I started working on game music at around 2003/2004 and I think I worked on almost every project possible. Flash, mobile, Browser/Unity, Console, PC and in almost every genre out there, from Action over RPG to MMO in all kinds of projects, may they have been low budget projects or AAA titles.

Before I got into the industry I too worked for free, but only on hobby projects. I built my credit list and started to write emails, did phone calls and the likes to reach out for serious companies and paid gigs ... and when I got my first job I definitely did NOT charge 10-35 USD per minute ... no matter how small the game was. There have been projects which were really paid low but it was always that much that at the end of the day you somehow were able to pay your rent or food at the end of the month!

I am aware that you are not a professional, so I assume you got a day job and offer your musical skills for that low that almost everyone client automatically will become either skeptic because you charge that low or will jump on you since your price is absolutely unreal (which is actually good for the company but very very bad for your competition - they are not only getting angry because you got that game, but you charged something no professional can compete with). 

If I calculate with the middle of your 10-35 this would be around 20 bucks per minute. One usually needs around a day for a minute of music (on average, counting reviews, rejections and so on). Sometimes it can be 2 or even 3 minutes, depending on the style. However if you charge 20 bucks per minute of music and you do a score of 20 mins (which you would need a full month for) then you earned 400 bucks in that months. Congratulations, you can only afford that if you still live in your mum's house or you got a very generous girlfriend ... and then is the question: IF you are going to be a "pro". When or how will you start raising your price per minute? Noone can live from 400 bucks a months. Do you think your clients you worked with go like: Oh hey, he is a pro now, we are happy to pay 100-200 bucks more per minute? I am sorry for saying this but your price rate, if hobby composer or not, is ruining the game industry!

... and besides that, if you call it "sharing your experience" by scoring for like 6 flash games and also by completely generalizing the whole game industry including saying: literally everyone and their mother can create game music ... I don't know ... it is an insult to the whole game music industry!


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Not only my opinion, but fact! Have you ever listened to a queue in a film? (For example....)
> ...


Hm? I think there is nothing to prove. We're talking about facts?!


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok...and again why is writing game music easier than scoring a film? I couldn't find any argument in your post proving that.
> ...



Gunther, I ask you back. Have you scored a movie and a game?
The thing thought it is totally different, but there is one advantage on movie scores. It is linear, it never changes.

Think about a game soundtrack when you walk through a wood, suddenly monsters follow you (music track is almost the same but more tension), you are confronted on a fight a few/more/very much monsters. Then the same again depending on your hitpoints. Are you already dead or have you full health.

Seriously, it can be very tricky to write for game. Now you got around 5-6 tracks for one place, but then you got like 10-20 places in a game and you can visit them as YOU want and decide since the game doesn't run linear and most important - all has to fit together!!

To say that writing for games is so much easier than writing for movie is simply NOT true!


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## R.Cato (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> Hm? I think there is nothing to prove. We're talking about facts?!



Gunther, there is no proven fact. Just take yourself some time and read the whole topic. There are enough reasons listed above why writing game music isn't easier than writing a film score and also why scoring a film isn't easier than writing game music.

Everyone in this thread agreed with those arguments, so I just ask you how you're able to get to your conclusion it is easier than scoring a film. You just said it's a proven fact, but didn't post any reason which proves it.

It's easy to declare something to be a fact, without one single legit argument, so would you pls be so kind to prove the assumption you just declared a fact.

Thanks.


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## Samulis (May 5, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> If I calculate with the middle of your 10-35 this would be around 20 bucks per minute. One usually needs around a day for a minute of music (on average, counting reviews, rejections and so on). Sometimes it can be 2 or even 3 minutes, depending on the style. However if you charge 20 bucks per minute of music and you do a score of 20 mins (which you would need a full month for) then you earned 400 bucks in that months. Congratulations, you can only afford that if you still live in your mum's house or you got a very generous girlfriend ... and then is the question: IF you are going to be a "pro". When or how will you start raising your price per minute? Noone can live from 400 bucks a months. Do you think your clients you worked with go like: Oh hey, he is a pro now, we are happy to pay 100-200 bucks more per minute? I am sorry for saying this but your price rate, if hobby composer or not, is ruining the game industry!
> 
> ... and besides that, if you call it "sharing your experience" by scoring for like 6 flash games and also by completely generalizing the whole game industry including saying: literally everyone and their mother can create game music ... I don't know ... it is an insult to the whole game music industry!



You need to chill man... geez.

1. Note my age. I'm not even out of high school mate.
2. I need 1-2 hours to write a minute, tops three hours if I am slow or distracted. I simply cannot spend any more than 5 hours on a piece or it falls into too poor quality, hence why I like game scoring- you get to write many small pieces. Most people in high school make about $12/hour at their little "jobs". I make about $20. Sounds decent. The real people who are "ruining" the industry are those who allow developers to work in ignorance of how audio works and with disrespect towards the composer. Then you have all those doing it for free. Are they ruining it? I would like you to tell Kevin MacLeod he is ruining online film scoring for everyone else because he is a nice person who somehow gets all his music in every Let's Play and Youtube video imaginable. I will increase my rate when I get better at what I do and when people tell me I am worth more. That is it.
3. I figure my music is pretty poor compared to that of someone like you and that I don't NEED to make a living, so it's fine with me. You have your AAA jobs, I have my dirt-poor flash developers' jobs.
4. You once again make the fallacy of misreading. What is "generalizing the whole game industry" all about when I SAID I was talking about the bottom of the industry? I did not know the entire industry was the lower end. 

I'm out of this thread... if you wish to insult me any more and sidetrack this into a flame war, please message me. If perhaps you would like to reword that in a reasonable, constructive comment on my pricing and let me know you think I am actually decent enough to charge more, a PM would also suffice.


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:
> ...



Ah yes, I got your point, Alex, and you are right! It is not so easy to handle. But it is very different as to write a score for a film... .


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2013)

Samulis @ Sun May 05 said:


> Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > If I calculate with the middle of your 10-35 this would be around 20 bucks per minute. One usually needs around a day for a minute of music (on average, counting reviews, rejections and so on). Sometimes it can be 2 or even 3 minutes, depending on the style. However if you charge 20 bucks per minute of music and you do a score of 20 mins (which you would need a full month for) then you earned 400 bucks in that months. Congratulations, you can only afford that if you still live in your mum's house or you got a very generous girlfriend ... and then is the question: IF you are going to be a "pro". When or how will you start raising your price per minute? Noone can live from 400 bucks a months. Do you think your clients you worked with go like: Oh hey, he is a pro now, we are happy to pay 100-200 bucks more per minute? I am sorry for saying this but your price rate, if hobby composer or not, is ruining the game industry!
> ...




1. It doesn't matter. You still offer your music to the world for 10-30 bucks!
2. Yes, you CAN spend more than 5 hours on a piece, since you don't have to finish it up within a day or two. And NO you can NOT compare writing and selling music to a 12$ per hour day job! There is a big difference!
3. You don't get it, why are you selling it then??? On your website you have a clear COMMERCIAL PRICING INFORMATION!
4. By generalizing the whole game music industry I was referring to your two comments from your previous posts:
"everyone and their mother can write game music" .... and ... "game music is so much easier to write than for film"


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

R.Cato @ Sun May 05 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Hm? I think there is nothing to prove. We're talking about facts?!
> ...



For my understanding ( I never wrote music for a game...), I have to underline a scene and have to transmit the feelings to the next pictures, and I know exactly the pictures coming! Not so at a game.... .?!


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## R.Cato (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> For my understanding ( I never wrote music for a game...), I have to underline a scene and have to transmit the feelings to the next pictures, and I know exactly the pictures coming! Not so at a game.... .?!



Alex just gave you a good example for not knowing the exact possible situations a player could face at any time, but nevertheless the music has to connect every situation which could happen. As I said it before, in some cases game music works different.

However, I am still waiting for the reasons why writing music for games is easier than scoring a film, which you're not able to tell me due to the fact that you haven't scored a videogame yet.


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

The music should have to connect every situation...... .? Have you ever listened to such a music? 

Edit: I am smiling again...... .


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> The music should have to connect every situation...... .? Have you ever listened to such a music?
> 
> Edit: I am smiling again...... .



Gunther,

music in games cannot be linear. I explained it to you above already.
A knight starts in a town and there is music playing, suddenly he moves out into a forest and fights against monster. First the music is peaceful since there is no monster, but as soon as it attacks the music changes. Then the knight enters a cave and has to fight against a huge boss and inside the cave again there is another piece playing which is changing when the knight enters the fight. After the fight, the music has to change to a win feeling and go back to mysterious since he is still in the cave. The thing is, EVERY player can decide different. He could go into the cave but not fight against the boss, then run a little bit around in the forest before he goes back to the town and so on. It is not linear, therefore the music has to connect to each situation possible!


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

Exactly, Alex. No question about this!


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## germancomponist (May 5, 2013)

Alex, I know that I have to be there in Hamburg in two or 3 weeks. Maybe we should meet?


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## Waywyn (May 5, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:


> Alex, I know that I have to be there in Hamburg in two or 3 weeks. Maybe we should meet?



Thanks for the offer! Sorry, but my next 4-5 weeks are pretty chaotic!


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## Daniel James (May 5, 2013)

Have worked on AAA games and Feature Films. Games area lot more technically challenging than film in my experience. 

Film you write a piece of music to suit the film.

Games, you write pieces that have to sound like one linear piece but must be able to change at any given point to a different mood or emotion by fading between different layers....without sounding like its just changing between layers.

HOWEVER I have also seen first hand how fucking complex a Hollywood feature can be, it can be just as bad as a game technically, with edits changing so much.

Compositional ability is no real different between the two...if you can write music that suits a film you will mostly likely have the chops to do a game and vice verse. The technical aspects of writing for the mediums is where the big differences are, if you have only done film you will struggle with the game process at first. If you have only done games you will struggle with a constantly changing film project at first. 

Best way around it is to practice both 

Oh and back to the initial question...yes its crowded as fuck, everyone and their mother thinks they can score a game 

-DJ

p.s the biggest difference between low budget games and AAA games is spreadsheets....fucking spreadsheets everywhere XD


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## Mike Marino (May 5, 2013)

> yes its crowded as fuck, everyone and their mother thinks they can score a game



Ah, thanks Daniel. That's what I thought.

So everyone crowds the game market......everyone crowds the film market......everyone crowds the trailer music market.......everyone crowds the library music market.......everyone crowds the "I also have my own music library" market.......many are heading to the sample library creation market......

* face palm *


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## Daniel James (May 5, 2013)

Mike Marino @ Sun May 05 said:


> > yes its crowded as f#@k, everyone and their mother thinks they can score a game
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha exactly now everyone and their mothers can make a sample library. That's not too bad for us though as composers, gives us lots of new options to write music with.

As with any overcrowded field though in any industry, the talent and the connected will rise to the top, the rest will not. Just got to either get really good or get really connected...or better, do both 

-DJ


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## danielcartisano (May 5, 2013)

Every industry is flooded...

I'll add this:

For the rest of you "young" composers (and I mean young being still in high school) or composers who are desperate to get into the industry, please, stop selling your music so cheap. If you really think your work is poor, then do it for free. Even if you're building a portfolio, do some work for FREE and state that you're working for free only to build a few credits... If you're charging a set rate, developers (especially the ones who can't tell the difference in quality) will start expecting the same prices from everyone and basically you just force everyone to bring their prices down (unless of course, you're connected, as D. James said or have clients who keep coming back to you). Still, it becomes equally as difficult for these composers to gain new clients in the indie-game field.

When you start charging for your work, go with a price that makes sense. $10-$15 per minute at 1 minute per day, is around $400 a month as Alex Pfeffer stated earlier... that's ridiculous... seriously think about it for a second, and really try to grasp how ridiculous it is... This is an industry you supposedly want to be in to earn your living. You wouldn't go work in retail 5 days a week for a month for $400. Now it leads me to this, if you absolutely refuse to listen to anyone, the least you could do is to stop advertising and promoting your prices everywhere on forums, websites, etc. I've seen so much of this.... 
"COMPOSER AVAILABLE. CUSTOM MUSIC FROM $10"
"I WILL WRITE FOR YOUR GAME... $10 PER MINUTE"
Just don't do it. Give your art a price, a good price and don't be cheap. You worked hard for that, you put a lot of heart into it, don't just throw it away for a large big mac meal.

See, usually I'll listen to their music and I understand why they're doing it so cheap, because its average, which may be a reflection of their experience or because they're trying to make a living on $10 per minute, in which case they need to compose 10 cues a day while sacrificing the quality of said cues.

But what really gets under the skin, and I've spoken to some amazing and proven industry composers and they agree, is when there is a composer charging $15 per minute of music and their music is actually great. Both compositionally and technically... They could and SHOULD be charging a lot more. This absolutely destroys our industry. "But I wouldn't be able to get any work..." they tell me. That's because of the thousands before you who have done just the same = working for nothing.

I know its impossible to stop people working for peanuts but I'll do my best to help our industry. (Don't mean to do it by negative posts like this, but I speak for all of us)

Again, the great and connected will always rise up. The rest will be battling it out amongst the composers working for $10 a cue.

I didn't intend for my first post here in a while to be a rant. 

How's everyone been?


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## Sven (May 5, 2013)

Hello fellow composers

This is for very me the subject of very a interesting discussion for i have both views and experiences (both) of games and of film scores, certainly in Norway at least where games and film is almost equal

But what then? I can offer a view on both certainly. For earlier this year i wrote the score for a very small game labels 'Battle of Fear' due for release shortly. The composing was timely taking maybe 2 months - budget meant that i had to score reliant on midi, plugins and associated software. It was a very difficult experience for me especially fussing realistic elements of 1970 funk (like wah guitars / fretless bass / lounge lizard) into one of the several dream sequencers. Before this i had not scored even my first game so certainly as a newbie but yes you had to quickly adept.

But then how can i comment on which is harder? Well soon after completed B.O.F, the soft house made a youtube film (for summer release) about making of the game soundtrack ('The Sound Of Fear'). However, The director of the game label (and former sound designer himself) insisted on us to produce a totally original score for the youtubes video. For this though i had use of a small budget and was able to contact a local orchestra and in time discuss with them the possibilities and finally engage their service in the eventual recording. Which meant I also had to get the parts for hi violins cellos and lo violin written out specially by local arranger in timely manner. However, this in itself was much hassle and very time consuming due to the fact the guy was on a fishing trip in Gjovik througout this periods. So communication was a difficult. But then after a month we sorted this eventually, not as timely as could have been but within the constraints, as were allowed and laid down at the onset. After this, and after printing out each parts, we had to record the strings section at a local studio (in Sarpsborg) - again this took ages, not just in organizing but also in timely sessions and then importing all the aiffs into logic and top/tail/melodyne for many parts also took ages. This instruments not being midi also meant i had to do much automation on every note as the players could not control volumes as well as i can in logic. This again took many many hours. I would say the mixing was even harder - like having to balance real orch with damage percussion soundtrack, female naration and explosion fx proved to be a major headache requiring some or indeed alot of thought.

Considering this film of the making of the soundtrack lasted 5 minutes and the game many more minutes (maybe 1 hours of gamplay) then i think it can be seen, and as demonstrated above that although games comp is skilled and very difficult, writing for a film is alot harder for sure, and a much more hassle in sorting out the combining elements.


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## Hawkes (May 6, 2013)

Sven @ Sun May 05 said:


> ...
> Considering this film of the making of the soundtrack lasted 5 minutes and the game many more minutes (maybe 1 hours of gamplay) then i think it can be seen, and as demonstrated above that although games comp is skilled and very difficult, writing for a film is alot harder for sure, and a much more hassle in sorting out the combining elements.



Well, that goes to show that writing for film was a lot harder in this particular situation. I could give examples that are the opposite though... Having to write very minimal, simple background fluff for film, compared to the last game I worked on where I had to write everything in multiple layers that would sound good in any combination (or on their own), and where I had to then make low and high intensity versions of all of those layers so that the engine could switch between them based on what's happening in the game.

So far, in my (fairly limited) experience, the challenges in both games and film have been all over the place - from fairly simple to very difficult.


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## jaredcowing (May 6, 2013)

danielcartisano @ Sun May 05 said:


> "But I wouldn't be able to get any work..." they tell me. That's because of the thousands before you who have done just the same = working for nothing.
> 
> ....
> 
> Again, the great and connected will always rise up. The rest will be battling it out amongst the composers working for $10 a cue.



While it's true that a director might walk away if the composer's fees are out of their price range, I'm glad you mention how working at $10 a minute simply isn't sustainable income even if you do get the gig. Also, I think first impressions are extremely important in the industry, and if you're immediately known as the "cheap guy," that handicaps how they perceive your music from then on. Why should the director value your music if you don't? While you don't necessarily want to ask for more than they have, I think there is something to the idea that if you ask for a little more, the director will take you more seriously and your music more seriously. There's alot of poorly written music out there, and I think most directors will understand if you say "you can go with someone who will write for less, but you will probably get what you pay for."

I understand the argument that working for less might lead to better paying gigs later on, but I think that if I were a director and had more money for my next project, I'd want to "upgrade" the quality of everything, and if that meant getting better music, I'd try to go with someone "the next notch up" who charges a little more. Unless they really get along well with you and fall in love with your stuff (could happen), I don't think most directors would get the "cheap guy" again and offer to pay him more... am I cynical in thinking this?


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## Conor (May 6, 2013)

I worked for free for a year or so out of college. The problem with this (in my limited experience) is that zero-budget projects tend to just fall apart and leave you with no money AND no worthwhile credit.

For the next couple years I made a point of taking a fee, however small. It usually ended up being $25-50 a minute. I felt better about this strategy ("Woo, I'm making money writing music!") but it does have downsides. When you work for cheap, people don't see it as a favor -- they just think your music isn't worth very much.

At some point I realized the only reason I wasn't writing better music, for better clients, for better money, was that I hadn't had the balls to try. Now I charge $200-$300 per minute, and get better gigs as a result. Next year I'll have better credits and better production values and I'll charge more. And so on.

So I guess the point is... if you're working so cheaply because you really and truly aren't ready for the next level, then fine. Just remember there IS a next level where the going rate for music is five times that, and then another level where the going rate is five times THAT, and nobody's gonna decide you belong there but you.

--

On the ease of writing for games vs. film/TV... I think there's still a perception in some circles that game music is inherently simpler and/or artistically inferior. That's just not true in 2013.

The differences seem mostly technical, and can go either way depending on how ambitious the music spec is.


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## Dean (May 6, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Alex, I know that I have to be there in Hamburg in two or 3 weeks. Maybe we should meet?
> ...



Take the hint Gunther  . 

D


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## Sven (May 6, 2013)

I think Gunther have made some astute observation about the difficulty we have, and are having, in the main as being a composer not only of games, but both games....and films. The one is difficult yes? But try them together, both equally at the same times and it is very much like a qualified pilot trying not only to pilot a large jet aircraft, but also as being his (or her) own navigator. Quite obviously, the two jobs cannot be done together. Well, perhaps they can but of course, eventually the results could be dangerous (maybe a crash or even worse).

For this I know because as a small child my class and myself visiting Oslo airport as part of a series of 'land - sea - air' field trips with my school (we also visit the port and train stations). We spoke to several pilots who all made it clear how multi tasking was very much parts and parcel of these roles. 'Symbiotic' they called it because one could not do the job without the help of the others. 

And this is very much like games/film composers where you have to ask yourself that if I am to be greatly succesful at this, and be the very best I can be, then i need to have decided - at the very outset at least - whether i am going to be a pilot or a navigator - or if you are into sports then am i going to be a goalie or a striker? In other words, simply...will i write games or film? This is a decision every games composer must make early on in their career.

What I am asking is can it be possible to do both, well? to the extraordinary standards now the flag has been fully raised in both genres by the very man (and female) composers currently serving in Europe and even further a field? Both are completely different disciplines - again think of pilot/navigator. Both require different skillsets. Both require different compositional styles. Both require different time restraints. Both are very different in financial rewards at times.

Also, both are perceive as different by people outside of music. In previous years I had dabble with maybe a few cheap ads for local businesses. One in particular for a soft cheese company - this was not an orchestrals by any means. Indeed, it was a funky kind of almost sub urban dance tune. This actually got me alot of ridical on local radio station and indeed, eventually there was a small facebook campaign to get the ad stopped (unsuccessfully i am happy to report, but for a time it was a worry). But...it wasn't just the music at fault, but more it was the visuals as these director had a spoof James Bond guy holding a sandwich being chased by a large purple tub of soft cheese through the streets of Sarpsborg - like a scene from a 70s cop show. Think Tango fussed with Starsky & Hutch but on a smaller scale. You understand? This was very much the novelty factor, and this director was trying for an comedy angle but at the same time also trying to make a very strong visual memory. 

I think though, that this had a quite detrimental effect on me and my carer for a while because I was seen as a novelty music writer. A bad thing? Possibly. So, the only way I could go forward was games from this point and I had always loved games even from playing Tiger Woods golf at an early age. You see the point I make here? For this reason the jump from novelty ad to games was less of a jump. At these points in my career, i could not have gone into films as no one would have taken me seriously, or indeed the music i wrote. So, films are definitely, as demonstrated above, very much more difficult than games to get into but ironically, very much more easier to get out of - and this may not always be the choice of the composer! 

@ Gunther (or anyone else) - if you are ever near Sarpsborg please we must meet up. The area is very good for cycling.


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## Waywyn (May 7, 2013)

Sven @ Tue May 07 said:


> I think Gunther have made some astute observation about the difficulty we have, and are having, in the main as being a composer not only of games, but both games....and films. The one is difficult yes? But try them together, both equally at the same times and it is very much like a qualified pilot trying not only to pilot a large jet aircraft, but also as being his (or her) own navigator. Quite obviously, the two jobs cannot be done together. Well, perhaps they can but of course, eventually the results could be dangerous (maybe a crash or even worse).
> 
> For this I know because as a small child my class and myself visiting Oslo airport as part of a series of 'land - sea - air' field trips with my school (we also visit the port and train stations). We spoke to several pilots who all made it clear how multi tasking was very much parts and parcel of these roles. 'Symbiotic' they called it because one could not do the job without the help of the others.
> 
> ...



Well, of course it depends on taste much. I could name you lots of composers who worked on both "sides", but I would say all of these did their job well either in film or games, or let me say you weren't hearing an in/decrease of their quality of written music.
I would say that if one is a skilled guy, knows his gear and got experience can manage both, working for films and games. I would see much much more difficulties for someone who is trying to do sound effects AND composing, even though for games only. I did it for a while, especially during my beginning time and I would say that even this way of working was kind of refreshing because I was able to balance music and sfx perfectly. Later on when jobs got more, I tend to leave the sfx to the real pros  ... 

However, I personally find it really freshing to work on both sides, because one time you can deal with the linear aspect and one time with the aspect of music which has to be written in layers/blocks/looping files .. and to be honest if you do cutscenes, you already have not really a difference from working at a movie.

Howver, please be aware that I am just talking writing/instrumentation etc. not the technical and organizing aspects which are totally different for movies and games.


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## Daniel James (May 7, 2013)

I am literally scoring a game and a film right now. I dont think you have to be one or the other when it comes to films or games. I know how to write music and write music like me, the technical aspects can be learnt and once you get them down its all about the music.

Its like being able to speak multiple languages. The technical aspects are different but the art of conversation applies to both equally.

-DJ


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## germancomponist (May 7, 2013)

I think this is a good interview about music for games and the big differences between film music and game music: http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/09/18/behind-the-music-how-video-game-soundtracks-are-made


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## Waywyn (May 7, 2013)

Riffs @ Tue May 07 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I am literally scoring a game and a film right now. I dont think you have to be one or the other when it comes to films or games. I know how to write music and write music like me, the technical aspects can be learnt and once you get them down its all about the music.
> ...



Come on, this was just an example 
Of course you can speak two or three languages perfect. Just look at interpreters. Even more, they do not just speak two languages very well, they can also listen to one and speak the other at the same time!

The only difference is that one might feel more comfortable in one language which would be obviously your mother language. But your personal preferation for one doesn't automatically relate to "better".

However, personally I am 10+ years in the bizz and I definitely did not score as many movies as I scored for games, but I can say that I feel comfortable in doing both, since I feel no difference in writing, arranging, producing and getting your imagination/ideas going! These two genres are very different to work in but you can't say that one is more difficult than the other.

Again I am aware that there is a lot of crap going on in games music and so does in film too, but I know 100% that games music is highly underrated, especially in 2013!


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## Waywyn (May 7, 2013)

as for games music, check out these vids (there are voices and/or sfx over it, but you get the idea). Leaving out the matter of taste, I think these two tracks could easily compete with some movie scenes!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... FGA#t=404s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... EgY#t=289s


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## germancomponist (May 7, 2013)

For sure, no question about this.

What I meant is well explained in the interview what I posted earlier.


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## jaredcowing (May 7, 2013)

CobraTrumpet @ Mon May 06 said:


> The problem with this (in my limited experience) is that zero-budget projects tend to just fall apart and leave you with no money AND no worthwhile credit.



+1

There are some no-budget projects that you can tell will go somewhere, but for the most part I see these projects simply fizzle out leaving you with no good credit.

Film vs. game music is apples and oranges to me in terms of how "easy" or "hard" it is to write, but I will say that I think that there's a much less urgent need to live in LA for games. I'm not sure if that means it's any easier to break into however, because you're not only competing against the many many LA composers trying to get a gig but also the ones from everywhere else.

I also think there's definitely a perception that game music is easier to write (and can be done on a much lower budget) which means that alot of composers who wouldn't be comfortable doing films think their music is perfectly suitable for games... making the market that much more crowded.


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## dannthr (May 8, 2013)

Any composer who thinks that game music is just looped music makes shi__y game music.


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## MarkS_Comp (May 9, 2013)

dannthr @ Wed May 08 said:


> Any composer who thinks that game music is just looped music makes shi__y game music.



Any composer who thinks that game music is just looped music doesn't know what it takes to write good game music.


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## dannthr (May 9, 2013)

I think we're in agreement, sir! Though, I suspect you're kinder than I when it comes to generalizing people who make broad assertions about someone's skill based on their apparent opinion.


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## Ed (May 9, 2013)

Waywyn @ Tue May 07 said:


> as for games music, check out these vids (there are voices and/or sfx over it, but you get the idea). Leaving out the matter of taste, I think these two tracks could easily compete with some movie scenes!
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... FGA#t=404s
> ...



Or: Dark Void

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVu5tbkf6SA


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## Ed (May 9, 2013)

Waywyn @ Sun May 05 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Alex, I know that I have to be there in Hamburg in two or 3 weeks. Maybe we should meet?
> ...



This summer. Two enter, only one will leave. Only on FOX.


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## impressions (May 9, 2013)

dannthr @ Wed May 08 said:


> Any composer who thinks that game music is just looped music makes shi__y game music.



definitely!

and regarding those zero-budget projects, they always remind me of dead-end bands, or relationships, where you know this is going no where but you're hoping something will change for the better-and it doesn't.


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## guitarman1960 (May 10, 2013)

The topic of people working for cheap rates ruining the industry applies all over, not just in music, and there isn't a good answer to it.
My day job is website design, another very overcrowded profession, and I work in a small design agency. We charge £90/hr for website design and build work. We are losing more and more work to people working from their bedrooms and happy to charge £10/hr because they have no overheads and still live at home.
Obviously clients get what they pay for, and many who have gone the cheap route eventually come back when they realise why we charge what we do, but it's tough competing against people happy to work for very low rates. Can only see this getting worse.


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## Greg (May 10, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFkHbDd3qMs

The Deus EX: HR soundtrack by Michael McCann is hands down my favorite game soundtrack. It easily blows many movie scores out of the water. Especially how perfectly the music jives with the environment, sound effects, and most importantly the emotions of the game.

I cannot wait to hear his next game score!!


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## EastWest Lurker (May 10, 2013)

Greg @ Fri May 10 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFkHbDd3qMs
> 
> The Deus EX: HR soundtrack by Michael McCann is hands down my favorite game soundtrack. It easily blows many movie scores out of the water. Especially how perfectly the music jives with the environment, sound effects, and most importantly the emotions of the game.
> 
> I cannot wait to hear his next game score!!



I only listened to the main title. Based on only that while it may be, and probably is judging from the screenshot, absolutely perfect for the game, as music it is just like a thousand other things out there, very cliche. Certainly nothing I would choose to listen to away from the game. 

Once again, however, it may be perfect for what it is intended and I did only listen to the main title.


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## Ciaran Birch (May 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri May 10 said:


> Greg @ Fri May 10 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFkHbDd3qMs
> ...



Deus Ex is by far my favourite game!  The original which was out in 99/00 blew me away when I played it! And Human Revolution was just as good.

Jay; the music by Michael McCann fits the Cyber Punk universe that Deus Ex is set in perfectly. If you ever have time (not sure if you're a gamer or not?) play a demo of it. It's very good. He also did Splinter Cell; Double Agent. Another great score in my eyes. But I'm a sucker for the dark, mysterious style scores like Michael McCann, Joel Richard and Michael Suby.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 10, 2013)

Nope, not a gamer, rather read a book


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## AndreasWaldetoft (May 10, 2013)

Im sorry but... anyone who think 200$ a min is big league stuff needs to get a family and try to get that to work financially.
Im pretty sure sweden is not the only ones who have taxes?

Im inhouse composer nowadays though but I would have never take on a job when i was freelance with that budget, unless i really saw something special with the project... and if I could afford it.
Im in no way the big league of game composers.

Ive done movies as well and I find them apples and oranges, I cant say the other one is harder or easier.


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## Samulis (May 10, 2013)

Not to bring this too far off topic, but I just thought of something quite entertaining... imagine if someone such as Richard Wagner were alive today... would you think he'd be scoring games/films? I'd certainly think so. I wonder why they use Wagnerian Tubas and Contrabass Trombones in many scores. :D

Perhaps it would be interesting to discuss the factors why the various industries related to composition are becoming crowded since it is obviously and undoubtedly clear that they are crowded from all that has been said... at least then there is something to talk about relevant to the OP's topic. 

Is it that for a few hundred bucks anyone can get an decent virtual orchestra? Is the interconnected nature of our global world? The wonders of not having to use an "analog notation program" (notation paper and a piano) to write music? One thing's for sure- live orchestras and musicians are not any cheaper, even if the parent's basement composer is. 

Are there any benefits to a more filled industry? Perhaps the spread of knowledge (more people understanding, for example, the range of a clarinet, or the transposition of a Bb Trumpet), or a heightened focus in Romantic-era notions such as programmatic music or using symbolic motifs in music? Revival of interest in medieval instruments (how many medieval games now incorporate the sounds of medieval instruments?)? Open careers in music education?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 10, 2013)

Samulis @ Fri May 10 said:


> Not to bring this too far off topic, but I just thought of something quite entertaining... imagine if someone such as Richard Wagner were alive today... would you think he'd be scoring games/films?



Probably not. He would have to work with too many Jewish people.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 3, 2013)

You guys may be overreacting a bit on the whole 10-30 a min level. His age DOES matter, because in the world we live in no one will pay him more than that for a score.

The argument that game scoring is harder than film, or film is harder than game scoring to me is moot. 

It's doesn't matter whether it's a game or film, it matters on what the developer/director wants. Some films have music so insanely simple, and some don't. The same goes for games.

Flash games are a different category, especially on Newgrounds. The size limits prevent the composer from creating anything substantial, which actually makes it harder.

Also most developers don't pay a lot on Newgrounds. It was initially a hobby site with creative commons music. However, some devs make INSANE amounts of money. So instead of asking for a rate, I'd get a share (if you can)


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