# Soundtrack sales percent



## Neifion (Apr 27, 2015)

So I'm negotiating a film score deal and I'm trying to figure out a fair soundtrack deal. Producer offered me 20%, which seems really low on my end. But honestly, I don't think the soundtrack is going to sell much, but you never really know, right?

What do you think is a fair percent? It's low-budget, and I'm not getting paid much. In fact, I accepted 25/75 upfront/deferment. I know what a lot of people's opinions are about deferment from previous topics, and I tend to share the same, but it's something that I've decided to go with on this.

Thanks for your help!


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2015)

since its low budget and you don't think you got paid enough, and you don't think soundtrack will sell well... maybe ask for a LOT more on the soundtrack deal instead of $20. seems you have some leverage to ask for more.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 27, 2015)

Neifion @ Tue Apr 28 said:


> I accepted 25/75 upfront/deferment.



Which means you have accepted 25%.

If I were you, I'd tell the producer you want 100% of the soundtrack sales until the other 75% of the fee is paid in full. If the producer is only paying you 25%, there is no _reason on earth _that he should take 80% of the soundtrack sales.


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## choc0thrax (Apr 27, 2015)

Sounds like you're getting fucked. Shouldn't your lawyer be negotiating this stuff anyways? I know contracts confuse the hell out of me. I was recently excited to read I was getting 15% of adjusted gross profits which seemed insanely high to me until my lawyer explained that it's just another way of saying 15% of net profits. We then agreed that it ultimately translates to 15% of nothing.


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## Neifion (Apr 27, 2015)

Well, as a freelance composer, when am I not getting fucked? :D 

But honestly, and I probably should have mentioned this in my first post, he had to replace his original composer after more than half the music had already been done and paid for. So that's why he's apparently short on upfront cash; not necessarily that he didn't budget for it, but that he didn't expect to have to pay for two soundtracks.

I agree with you all that I should take what I can get, considering I'm accepting deferment and not very much pay to begin with. So I think I'm going to ask to keep 100%. If I'm not going to get much compensation outright, I think I should at least keep whatever my music generates.


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## Neifion (Apr 29, 2015)

All right, a little update on this, for anyone who is willing to help me out a little further...

The director wants this to be a Work-For-Hire, because he has a distributor that he says will run away from anything else. Typically, the opinion I've heard is that WFH are fine only if the upfront fee is significant. Well, to me it's not. I'm being paid $500 ($250 upfront, $250 on final delivery) and $1500 in deferment. I tried a set date in the contract that the deferment must be paid in full, but the director won't have it. He says that in his previous distribution deals, it takes "2 years before anyone sees any money", that giving a date would be like "aiming at a dart board", and that there will have to be "some level of trust here" (I have never worked with him or his crew before). I take that to mean I won't see any of my deferment money before 2 years, if at all.

I managed to get 50% on soundtrack sales instead of the original 20% he offered, but honestly if he doesn't even think he can make a net profit within 2 years, I don't think he has much faith in the soundtrack being lucrative. This is a Lord of the Rings inspired indie fantasy film, similar in budget and quality to those put out by Arrowstorm Entertainment: http://arrowstormentertainment.com/

What would you do in my situation? Thanks in advance for any help.


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## Neifion (Apr 29, 2015)

Forgot to mention that I would be writing 60 minutes of music.


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## Markus S (Apr 29, 2015)

Neifion @ Mon Apr 27 said:


> Well, as a freelance composer, when am I not getting [email protected]#ked? :D
> 
> But honestly, and I probably should have mentioned this in my first post, he had to replace his original composer after more than half the music had already been done and paid for. So that's why he's apparently short on upfront cash; not necessarily that he didn't budget for it, but that he didn't expect to have to pay for two soundtracks.
> 
> I agree with you all that I should take what I can get, considering I'm accepting deferment and not very much pay to begin with. So I think I'm going to ask to keep 100%. If I'm not going to get much compensation outright, I think I should at least keep whatever my music generates.



You are the one who decides if you get fucked or not, not your status as freelance composer.

Honestly, is it your problem, that the first composer ate up all the budget? If this is in fact the case.

Here is my humble opinion : Forget the deferred payment. It might happen by miracle, but don't count on it.

Forget the sales of the soundtrack, really this is not going to bring in much.

Basically you agree to write 60 minutes of music exclusively (epic orchestral music that is, if I understand correctly) for 500,00 $. That is a bit over 8 $ per minute.


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## Neifion (Apr 29, 2015)

Markus S @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> You are the one who decides if you get fucked or not, not your status as freelance composer.
> 
> Honestly, is it your problem, that the first composer ate up all the budget? If this is in fact the case.
> 
> ...



Joking about the freelance thing.  

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too. Work-for-hire for $500, aka less than $10 per minute of music.







I'm not automatically against WFH, but I think I should probably be getting paid more than this. What about asking him to ask his distributor if they want to make a deal? If he can't provide the pay I think I deserve, maybe they can (if they're willing)?


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## RiffWraith (Apr 29, 2015)

One word: POINTS.


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## Neifion (Apr 29, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> One word: POINTS.



He offered 1% producer points, but completely in lieu of the deferment. So I'd be getting $500, plus 1% producer points, plus 50% soundtrack sales, for doing 60 minutes of music that he would own the rights to. But if I write off deferment, aren't producer points also something I can pretty much not count on receiving? And I assume the statement he said about no one getting paid for at least 2 years applies here. Also, I have no idea how good this film will do in sales.

Is that a good deal?


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## Neifion (Apr 29, 2015)

Let me rephrase that: is that a deal YOU would agree to? I know it's all about what the composer is willing to do, and everyone's situation, finances, and willingness are different, but I would like to know what you guys would do in YOUR situation, if given this offer.


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 29, 2015)

Neifion @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too. Work-for-hire for $500, aka less than $10 per minute of music.


If this director is the next Nolan or Spielberg or <whomever>, then I would do the gig for free because I believe in the project. Keep the publishing, but do the gig for the relationship. 

If this movie isn't going anywhere, then decide what you can live with up front... because that's all you're probably going to get. At $10 per minute of music, you're talking less than McDonald's wages, so what's your time worth?


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## RiffWraith (Apr 29, 2015)

Neifion @ Thu Apr 30 said:


> is that a deal YOU would agree to?



No.

Listen to yourself speak:

_I accepted 25/75 upfront/deferment. 

He had to replace his original composer after more than half the music had already been done and paid for. So that's why he's apparently short on upfront cash; not necessarily that he didn't budget for it, but that he didn't expect to have to pay for two soundtracks. 

I'm being paid $500 - I would be writing 60 minutes of music.

He offered 1% producer points, but completely in lieu of the deferment._

You do not see what is happening here, so I am going to explain it to you.

I said earlier:

_I'd tell the producer you want 100% of the soundtrack sales until the other 75% of the fee is paid in full. _

Him not agreeing to that shows that he thinks that you as a composer and a person are worthless. Because if he really thought highly of you, and he really wanted you, he would say yes. That simple. What is really happening here is that he doesn't want YOU. You think he does, but he doesn't. He wants someone - _anyone_ - who will write 60 min of music to picture for $500. It is $500 and not a penny more, because *there is no deferred payment coming later.*

And that sir, is the reality of the situation. 

Best of luck whatever you decide.


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## clisma (Apr 29, 2015)

Speaking from experience, unless you know this film is amazing and you've just simply got to be a part of it, or the director is one of the most brilliant people you've met so far, then walk away. That is a LOT of orchestral music (plus potential revisions) for very little money and NO backend. Forget soundtrack points. 

The advice given above is tough to hear, but par for the course. Wish somebody had told me way back when.


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## Markus S (Apr 30, 2015)

Neifion @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> Let me rephrase that: is that a deal YOU would agree to?



No.

With 8,5 $ per minute for an epic orchestral style you get something like maybe 1-4 minutes done a day.

Don't forget that you won't just write music, you will have to deal with the video files, formats, conversions, files exports, syncing, sending versions out, communicating, maybe even reworks on the music or changes in the cut.

So let's say you get 2 minutes done a day, sent, finalized, approved on a 10 hours day, this is something like 0,85 $ an hour. OK, let's say you can make the double (working fast having optimized your work flow), you get 1,5 $ per hour of work.

How much money have you invested in your setup and your education? How many hours have you spent learning music?

Yes, he might be the next Nolan or whatever, but he probably isn't. He most probably isn't. However what is sure is that by accepting such deplorable deals you are pulling down the market and anyone asking for a fair deal will have a hard time convincing the directors that music is worth something.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 30, 2015)

With those kind of prices you _may-as-well_ work for a week at McDonalds


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## Neifion (Apr 30, 2015)

Thanks for all your help guys. I sent him a rather long, though polite education (since he found it fit to educate me), as well as my final offer: $1500 fee, no deferment, no points, no soundtrack sales. We'll see what he says.


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## Kejero (Apr 30, 2015)

I know I'm late to the party... or funeral, but there is no way I would, or could, ever write 60 minutes of music for $500. The amount of money you have to invest to produce the music should always be recouped in SOME way. In this case the only backend I'd accept would be hefty and guaranteed.

That or I would offer to improvise the entire movie, on a piano, maybe even an electric piano. One take. Record. Export. Done. Oh I'd happily do that for $500!


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## MA-Simon (Apr 30, 2015)

> 60 minutes of music.



What, for 500$? (likewise with 1500$)

No.


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## davinwv (May 11, 2015)

I just did two (2) 30-second commercial spots for an inbound marketing firm. Full band arrangements in a country / Americana style (drums, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, Hammond, piano), and I made $800.00. Run away - far away!


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## toomanynotes (May 21, 2015)

if you're living with your parents and have no bills to pay or like to only eat once a week, i say...why not?


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## Dean (May 21, 2015)

Neifion @ Wed Apr 29 said:


> I'm being paid $500 ($250 upfront, $250 on final delivery) and $1500 in deferment.



Neifon, firstly forget what the director) thinks of you,.weather he undervalues or not,screw all the 'money per minute of music' equations,the points,..just forget it all!
You just have to decide why you want to do this gig and what you want to get out of it,nothing else matters.

if your'e doing this gig for every reason except the money (feature film score experience/challenge learning on the job,credit,composing great music to picture for your resume etc,),then n that case theres everything to gain from this project and I say go for it!

But Im actually shocked at the figures you mentioned,.theres nothing to negotiate re points /soundtrack / royalties from this project so dont get bogged down by that,..you wont see a dime from the backend!..as I said before if youre doing this for every other reason except money and you can get a bonus of a grand or so and the backend (100% of nothing) aswell,..then go for it.

D


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## jaeroe (May 21, 2015)

Wait for someone you get a really good collaborative vibe from to take a gig like that - meaning they really respect and value you.

Doing a feature film is a ton of work. It will be quite awhile before you're paid respectably, if ever. Consider it like you're investing in or subsidizing this person's film. Don't invest in someone who isn't invested in you. The people you want to get bogged down with are the people who respect you and will ask you back again. People who treat you like a door mat won't think twice about asking someone else to work for cheap the next time around and not even calling you.

There is absolutely no reason a distributor won't take a film simply because the film doesn't own the score. That's like saying you can't use licensed music in a film. They just need the proper paperwork. What it means is they want any and all revenue streams. So, they're not willing to pay you a remotely appropriate fee, but they want to take everything they can in revenue generated by the score (publishing, soundtracks, etc).

Until someone is offering you 10's of thousands of dollars you should retain everything - publishing (the copyright - so, that means not doing it work for hire), masters. You'll have to negotiate for the use of the film for a soundtrack, so producers are often cut in a little bit on that - maybe 1 to 5 pts out of 25 that gets split up to owner, etc.

Studios will want to own everything - but, they generally pay a lot better. I've done deals with Sony and others where they didn't pay great (but 7 figures) and I still retained masters, publishing (copyright), etc - I ended up giving up 10% of publishing to them and they administer, but they have access to it as part of their library, so they are actively working to place it (so they claim). Either way, if a big dog like Sony is willing to do those deals, an indie producer and smaller distributor can do it too.

If it is a truly great film then consider it for a one off. But, those are rare - would your friends honestly be excited about seeing the film if they didn't know you did it and it were playing on TV or in the theater? Could you honestly see the film playing on TV or the theater?

Getting experience is very important, but don't make yourself a slave doing it.


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