# Breathing life into Sequences



## José Herring (Sep 9, 2007)

I'm suddenly in a position where I have to evolve to the higher levels of music production. So I'm going to fire off a series of questions.

What lengths do people go to to create life like sequences? How deep do you go in the programming, midi cc, ect.?

Is it routine for people to automate ASDR envelopes for say a strings patch? Also, how do you go about mixing and controlling dynamics, nuance? Is it uncommon to use cc7 or cc11 on keys and pianos? Also, say you have loops in your sequence. How do you get those loops to integrate into an orchestral mix. If it's percussion loops would you set it back in a mix and or roll of the top to set it with the rest of the orchestral percussion? Also, has anybody heard of automatic volume for a loop and using filters to simulate dynamics?

best,

Jose


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## José Herring (Sep 10, 2007)

Very interesting. Pretty deep. Using the recording gear as a creative medium is fascinating.

This expansion/transient enhancement. Do you use it exclusively on drums? What is it really? I've tried using various expander/gates in the past and have had poor luck with them.


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## Pando (Sep 10, 2007)

Best thing, jose, is play it. Don't step-sequence or quantize. Play it live. Even with a reduced tempo it's way better than the mechanical sequencing if you can't play it real time. Also, program the controller(s) so you can control the dynamics live when you're playing. Use filters, eq, with volume, to control dynamics. Treat samples like a real acoustic instrument. Every instrument has certain characteristics which needs a different technique with the controller you use. For example, with strings you need to worry about bow strokes to release energy and create an instrument that breathes.

First try to make your samples expressive and responsive, then learn to play and control them while you listen and adapt.


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## José Herring (Sep 11, 2007)

Good advice. I'm working on a piece and decided to use automated EQ on the violins and then a filter on the drums. The EQ on the strings is tied to my mod wheel. So when the dxf swells up the sound brightes and visa versa. The filter on the drums is controlled by Velocity. 

Seems to work fairly well. I'll check it in the morning with fresh ears and perhaps a few more questions in mind.

night,

Jose


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## Hannes_F (Sep 11, 2007)

josejherring @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> Good advice. I'm working on a piece and decided to use automated EQ on the violins and then a filter on the drums. The EQ on the strings is tied to my mod wheel. So when the dxf swells up the sound brightes and visa versa.



That is a possibility but even better is to unlock the both having an extra parameter at hand.

Realtime control helps a lot to get into the 'playing' mode.


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi Jose, increasing realism in playability is one thing, but since your talking about music production specifically, id be looking at clarity in the mix, seperation, the balance of lows, low mids, high mids, highs etc.

Id be doing things like compressing your basses and cellos, cutting out low mids (or mud) from each instrument group too is imperative.

One thing I did in my template, was to start bussing everything out of Kontakt into its own output groups. (Think I remember seeing Kontakt in your setup?)

So you might have-

Group 1 - 1st and 2nd Violins
Group 2 - Violas
Group 3 - Cellos/Basses

and so on. If you want to really be anal, you could split those groups out further. The idea being, that you can process each section according to its needs. Focus the basses and Cellos with a compressor, remove the low mids from each section too. (The muddy portin of each instrument changes according to its overtones and fundamental frequency)

Take a look at this chart; http://www.har-bal.com/frequency.php i use this as reference all the time. I even printed it out and keep it on my desk.

Look up the fundamental for each instrument, then using EQ, CUT the frequencies below the fundamental. For example, the Cellos report a fundamental of 65hz - use a high pass filter and roll off the EQ from that point down. its amazing how much noise and rumble can live outside of an instruments range. Likewise, you can use a low pass to filter out the EQ above the instruments range. I tend to be more careful with the highs as you usually dont want to remove any perceived air or too much brightness.

But I find that thinning out each instrument group will clear up the mix and help certain instruments to "float" a little better. With EW Gold that you and I use, I tend to find many of the instruments a little too present - the trumpets for example are a little full for my taste, I apply a cut in the low mids, and a rolloff below the fundamental - the end result is usually a trumpet that seems to float and be more silky smooth.

here's an example where I compresses the basses and cellos for a "larger" more focussed sound; http://www.sca-soundstudios.com/audio/music/320kbps/Descent.mp3 (http://www.sca-soundstudios.com/audio/m ... escent.mp3)

ill post an example of a trumpet later.


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## bluejay (Sep 11, 2007)

Scott, 

Excellent tips there and warmly received by me! 

A couple of quick questions: -

Which compressor are you using?

Which EQ are you using?

When you take K2 outputs on separate busses, are you taking them out as Mono or Stereo tracks?


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi Bluejay, I often use the free compressor Blockfish; http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.p ... &subItem=5 - all of Sashca's plugs are top quality. Waves L2 is also really good as it has an auto release. (L2 is a limiter, but its great for track slamming)

EQ, generally Waves Q3, or the Pultec on my Powercore card, but there's lot of better EQs on the market - Cambridge EQ or Sony Oxford for example.

Most of my groups are left as stereo, particularly with EWQLSO and the built in ambience. But for true space in the mix, it really is best to use as many mono instruments as possible - place them appropiately on the 'soundstage' and you can always dial in some stereo verb or other effect.

I should say, Im not an expert in this stuff, what ive written here is from my own learning and discovery.


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## Jackull (Sep 11, 2007)

Very good topic

Thanks Scott for the link...

Since most of our music production starts with midi before anything else, I think cleaning up the sequences before the actual mixing & adding fx is the first thing to do. So here's what I can add on top of what already mentioned above - quantization as an option not a must, use variable tempos & imo take a break before mixning for fresher ears - 2cents.

hope to see others comments here.

-jackULL


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 11, 2007)

Great suggestions. One more - of course dependent on 'hits' the music must line up with BUT I have been (as one of the last steps in orchestrating) - riding the 'tempo track'. In many cases ALL OVER THE PLACE. Seems to really give it a 'conducted sound'. It's kind of my last thing to do before mixing.


Rob


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## Daryl (Sep 11, 2007)

Rob Elliott @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> Great suggestions. One more - of course dependent on 'hits' the music must line up with BUT I have been (as one of the last steps in orchestrating) - riding the 'tempo track'. In many cases ALL OVER THE PLACE. Seems to really give it a 'conducted sound'. It's kind of my last thing to do before mixing.
> 
> 
> Rob


This is one of the great beauties of Cubase. You can play it all in and put the barlines in afterwards. Then if your hits don't quite match, just compress or expand the whole section, complete with tempo changes. Occasionally you have to alter them to get the same realistic feel, but this is much quicker than guessing tempos, tying them in and then realising that it sounds cr*p...!

D


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 11, 2007)

Daryl @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> Rob Elliott @ Tue Sep 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Great suggestions. One more - of course dependent on 'hits' the music must line up with BUT I have been (as one of the last steps in orchestrating) - riding the 'tempo track'. In many cases ALL OVER THE PLACE. Seems to really give it a 'conducted sound'. It's kind of my last thing to do before mixing.
> ...




Cool Daryl - I'll dig into this feature. Many thanks.


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## José Herring (Sep 11, 2007)

These are so many great responses and all of them are really working. Thanks!

Scott,

The suggestion of bass/celli compression is working rather well. So well that I started to also put compression on just about everything. It's giving my production that "scoring stage" sound that I always wondered about. Being in a few live sessions I'm always amazed at what little variety of gear they do have. Basically compression and reverb and the sub bass enhancer thingy and a good board. It really does smooth it out and make it pump just a little to give things life.

Rob,

When you ride the tempo track are you using the little fader on top or are you drawing in ramps? I tried the fader thing and maybe it takes practice but I was all over the place (in a bad way) with it. Is there a way to control tempo with faders in Cubase?

best,

Jose


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## tradivoro (Sep 11, 2007)

About the only thing I can add that has helped me is, I envelope mix every single track... In the case of melodic lines, I sometimes extend them longer and fade out the last note for a more realistic release... This is quick and varies according to the melodic line in question... I find this is more individualistic that just working with the adsr envelope... Anyway, that's my two cents...


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 11, 2007)

josejherring @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> These are so many great responses and all of them are really working. Thanks!
> 
> Scott,
> 
> ...






Drawing in ramps has been how I have been doing it but always open to new ways. :D


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## JacquesMathias (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi Jose,

Many great advices here! I am not sure if i could add anything...

One of the things i think help is having a template where you have all the orchestral instruments you are going to use. EVEN if you are not able to load all the articulations you wish. Using Kontakt2 in your main DAW and having 1 slave on FXTELEPORT will give you this possibility depending of the libraries you are going to use, to load it all.

After that put each instrument (i.e. 1st flute, 2st flute, 1st Oboe, 2st Oboe...) in a different bus OUT. So, you will end up with all instruments in their own output. I like the idea of using different instruments for flutes as an example. Let's say 1st flute from GOLD and 2st Flute from Kontakt2 library, or whatever you think will fit your needs, or whatever you like. 

After that write some chords for woodwinds, and dealing with reverb, eq and comp (if required), try balancing the level of them. Play a F dynamic note with your 1st flute, so play it with your 2st flute, it should be the same level, right? Keep going until you have a perfect balance between them. If you are using samples with lots of room, such GOLD and some really dry, you obviously will need to add early reflections on your dry sounds, sometimes early and tail reverb, to make it blend.

Do the same for all sections. After, adjust the balance level between all of them. Then, when you get it done, if you play a chord with woodwinds and Strings, you will supposedly have this pre-balance. After you have a simple template (even with only long notes and staccatos for each instrument) *try mockuping a simple classical piece.
* If you got trouble with balancing your orchestral instruments, take a look on R. Korsakov's book, particularly on the chapter he establish a general "balance between sections". I know many people who don't exactly agrees with his balancing, but all agrees it is a good start point. 
If the balance is right, and if you followed the dynamics indications of the orchestral score, you will end up with a pre-balanced-processed template. And the classical piece will barely don't need very much adjustments to sounds OK. I have realized that no matter how much i work on a template, i will always need to tweak again. 

That is nice, because if you write a solo flute, playing in its low register, over a trombones' mf chords, you won't barely listen the flute, just like the real life...

What i do is no matter how many articulations i will use for each of my orchestral instruments, i will always load them ON Kontaks BANKS, and using only 1 MIDI CHANNEL per instrument, i use program change to choose between them. So i can start with a light template...less articulations, less RAM usage. So if i fell i really need a Sfz for my flute, i go and load it on my 1st FLUTE bank. My system is: I always use the patch number 9 for SFZ, ALWAYS. So, if i have a legato patch on my patch number 1 and sfz at patch 9, it will be the same for ALL my instruments. If i play a passage with 1st violinos : leg_leg_leg_sfz_leg...it is : Program change: 1_1_1_9_1

If i need my 1st flute to play it together, i just copy the clip from 1st violin to 1st flute, and it is there...same articulation for all instruments. same program changes. I WOULD normally play it again! i wanna small timing differences...not only copy and paste.

One more thing. I love to process it all...comp, eq, reverb, mastering...but be sure to not go so far..... So much Compression for orchestral doesn't sound appropriated in many cases. Although i totally agree it adds a nice punch and definition on your LOW instruments...Cellos, Basses...

One tip that have worked for me in some cases. Violins sounds bright and nice when you cut them around 1k to 2.5k, adding some more 8k or even 11k will help. Ok, many will say it is crazy, although it is very personal...I think that there was a member here who posted many nice EQ presets for VSL strings. (sorry, i can't remember his name)

Anyway, if you setup a Compressor as a sidechain mode, and make the compressor cut it only when some frequencies pass through, it might be even better than permanently cut some frequencies of...For Cellos, if they play at PP dynamic, you will keep the beautiful LOW frequencies, when the play loud, the compressor will act only on these frequencies...



Well, i think there are endless procedures... Sorry if i said so many obvious things. Only trying to help....


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 11, 2007)

JacquesMathias @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> Many great advices here! I am not sure if i could add anything...


And then you go on to write 11 in-depth paragraphs. Classic...

...And helpful. You made some good additions!


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## José Herring (Sep 11, 2007)

JacquesMathias @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> Hi Jose,
> 
> Many great advices here! I am not sure if i could add anything...
> 
> ...



Dito muito bem.

Obrigado!!!


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## PolarBear (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm asking myself if cutting out a whole region from an instrument is really doing it. How often is this kind of thing done with multitrack orchestral recordings? I mena the kill everything below the fundemental frequency thing, like 65 Hz and below for celli. Do you mean cut it completely with 48db/oct to 0db or just removing the most of it? My view is, that always when I try to do something like this, I am missing something in the mix later, so I skipped to do such things. Like it is for me audible in Scott's example that the highs on the strings were reduced, it doesn't sound too natural but more artificial to me then. The highs do contain a good share of overtones necessary for letting the instruments "breathe" IMHO. What is the best advice to not overdo this kind of thing?

All the best,
PolarBear


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 11, 2007)

PolarBear @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> I'm asking myself if cutting out a whole region from an instrument is really doing it. How often is this kind of thing done with multitrack orchestral recordings?


 I think in many pro recordings that they achieve the distance they want with the mic placement. We obviously dont have that luxury with fixed samples.



PolarBear @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> I mena the kill everything below the fundemental frequency thing, like 65 Hz and below for celli. Do you mean cut it completely with 48db/oct to 0db or just removing the most of it?


 I do a rolloff below the fundamental, certainly not a harsh cut.



PolarBear @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> My view is, that always when I try to do something like this, I am missing something in the mix later, so I skipped to do such things. Like it is for me audible in Scott's example that the highs on the strings were reduced, it doesn't sound too natural but more artificial to me then. The highs do contain a good share of overtones necessary for letting the instruments "breathe" IMHO. What is the best advice to not overdo this kind of thing?



I think if done carefully, what you should find is a clearer mix overall, particularly when dipping the low mids for each instruments group. Im surprised you found the highs "reduced" in my sample, generally, Im very careful cutting highs as I also mentioned preserving the air and the overtones in my original post. Also, i honestly cant remember cutting the highs for that track. I may've done though, as the music was destined for a game running at audio at 22khz.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 11, 2007)

Is it just me or is the discussion gravitating from _'breathing_ *life *into sequences' towards 'better setup, possibly automatically working'?

As important as a good setup with EQs and compressors and whatnot is - life comes from life and breathing from breath in my book. :mrgreen: 

What I mean is vitality in every musical aspect, and this is what will show up.



> How deep do you go in the programming, midi cc, ect.?



Usually I ride two cc's continuosly while playing, but I am at the edge to make it three or four.



> Is it routine for people to automate ASDR envelopes for say a strings patch?



I try to avoid any ADSR envelopes. Nearly all of my notes (except legato notes) end with the volume cc explicitly going to zero.


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## PolarBear (Sep 11, 2007)

Scott Cairns @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> I think if done carefully, what you should find is a clearer mix overall, particularly when dipping the low mids for each instruments group. Im surprised you found the highs "reduced" in my sample, generally, Im very careful cutting highs as I also mentioned preserving the air and the overtones in my original post. Also, i honestly cant remember cutting the highs for that track. I may've done though, as the music was destined for a game running at audio at 22khz.


I noticed that especially when A/Bing it against the "Medal Of Honor" Game Soundtrack, though that may be a bit unfair comparison  but absolutely the same style, just Giacchino is trying to do that without basses 

All the best,
PolarBear


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## aeneas (Sep 12, 2007)

PolarBear @ Tue 11 Sep said:


> What is the best advice to not overdo this kind of thing?


a) Listen to your ears.
b) Less is more - imagine how much is nothing. ~o)


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## david robinson (Sep 12, 2007)

josejherring @ Mon Sep 10 said:


> Very interesting. Pretty deep. Using the recording gear as a creative medium is fascinating.
> 
> This expansion/transient enhancement. Do you use it exclusively on drums? What is it really? I've tried using various expander/gates in the past and have had poor luck with them.



jose,
transient enhancement: can add attack back into the note/hit that compression and mediocre recording takes out.
you could use eq, but coloration will be higher.
it is not an exciter, which adds small amounts of hf distortion.
logic has one, called "enveloper", but the best is the Sonnox Transient Designer.
in fact, Sonnox plugs are ALL good.
Oxford Reverb is certainly a great non IR type reverb.
control of early reflections with it is the best i've seen in a native AU plug.
i use much less tail end with the Sonnox and it's really warm, not muddy.
i try to use as little compression with samples as i can.
their dynamics are much better controlled in other ways.
i tend to think of samples as a different art form from live players.
i've stopped trying to emulate Beethovens 5th!!!!
i've stopped trying to get the sound stage to replicate a concert hall.
each new composition demands a different treatment - we aren't bound to tradition anymore.
DR9.


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## José Herring (Sep 12, 2007)

Yes. I've come to many of the same conclusions regarding samples now. Write for the medium at hand. Samples are completely different from live players and the same rules of orchestration don't apply. The trick I'm finding is to get the right composition and performance/programming from the samples. Not to pretend that you have live players to write for, then be disappointed in the "lack of realism". Though similar in sound the treatment is completely different. 

I think the think to remember is to just make a musical performance using the samples you have.

But I am finding that adding just a tad of compression on samples makes the production sound more professional somehow.

I'm nearly finished with an example for critic. I'll post it soon.

Jose


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## david robinson (Sep 12, 2007)

josejherring @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> Yes. I've come to many of the same conclusions regarding samples now. Write for the medium at hand. Samples are completely different from live players and the same rules of orchestration don't apply. The trick I'm finding is to get the right composition and performance/programming from the samples. Not to pretend that you have live players to write for, then be disappointed in the "lack of realism". Though similar in sound the treatment is completely different.
> 
> I think the think to remember is to just make a musical performance using the samples you have.
> 
> ...




where i use comp/lim, is on the main send for reverb, either pre or post the verb plug.
after all pieces of the work have been assembled i use comp/lim a little in the mastering.
more like glue.
most of my work with orch samples is very tightly controlled in the first place.
but for pop, funk etc, i use a lot of dynamic processes.
jose, if you can, d/l the sonnox plugs, and the urs channel strip pro. (demos require ilok).
great quality plugs.
DR9.


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## José Herring (Sep 12, 2007)

david robinson @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Sep 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. I've come to many of the same conclusions regarding samples now. Write for the medium at hand. Samples are completely different from live players and the same rules of orchestration don't apply. The trick I'm finding is to get the right composition and performance/programming from the samples. Not to pretend that you have live players to write for, then be disappointed in the "lack of realism". Though similar in sound the treatment is completely different.
> ...



Interesting use of compression. I'll try it out on my next production.

I'll definitely look into the sonnox plugs. I have ilok.


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## Blackster (Sep 13, 2007)

Daryl @ Tue Sep 11 said:


> Rob Elliott @ Tue Sep 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Great suggestions. One more - of course dependent on 'hits' the music must line up with BUT I have been (as one of the last steps in orchestrating) - riding the 'tempo track'. In many cases ALL OVER THE PLACE. Seems to really give it a 'conducted sound'. It's kind of my last thing to do before mixing.
> ...



Really? How can this function be found? I use Cubase4 but I didn´t knew about this feature. Would like to try it by myself to take a comparison to the "normal ways" to control the tempo.


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## JohnnyMarks (Sep 13, 2007)

Check out my post in the SAMPLE Talk, relevant to "breathing life"...:

Tapper post


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## Blackster (Sep 13, 2007)

Hey Johnny, thnks a lot. I´ve never seen anything like that. I downloaded the tapper and will give my best shot  .... seems to be a very useful tool. Thanks once again.

edit: I know understand how Tapper is working but what I didn´t get yet is how to implement Tapper into my Cubase-working!? Are there any ways to solve this?


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## JohnnyMarks (Sep 14, 2007)

Blackster @ Thu Sep 13 said:


> Hey Johnny, thnks a lot. I´ve never seen anything like that. I downloaded the tapper and will give my best shot  .... seems to be a very useful tool. Thanks once again.
> 
> edit: I know understand how Tapper is working but what I didn´t get yet is how to implement Tapper into my Cubase-working!? Are there any ways to solve this?


Hey Blackster, check out my reply to Colin O'Malley in the SAMPLE Talk Tapper thread...


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## Daryl (Sep 14, 2007)

Blackster @ Thu Sep 13 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Sep 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Elliott @ Tue Sep 11 said:
> ...


Check out Warp in the manual, and then ask questions.  

D


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