# When clients don't pay



## Nils Neumann (Feb 3, 2020)

I have really strong emotions with that one... just have to get that out of the system, sorry for the rambling.

so my partner and I get a call from a director last September. He talked about his 20-minute horror short with a little budget for music, had to be done in 10 days. After that call, we exchanged a few e-mails. He could convince him of the idea to make the score with mostly real instruments. Definitely more work, but we got a low 4 digit offer for that.

So we started calling musicians and booking the studio, conceptualized the music only from the script. He promised us the locked cut will be finished any time soon and he will send us a list of temp music.

But he didn't. The film was set to release in 4 days and still, we had nothing but the script. He stopped communicating for a few days, and at that point, it became a little fishy to me.
A day before the booked recording session we could get him on a call. We was very sorry, problems with production..., blah blah, so sorry, but he said he just started rendering the film, it should be ready in a few hours. So I decided to go to bed very soon so I could download the film a few hours before the recording session and write something fitting to the important scenes.

I woke up, nothing in my inbox. Just a list of temp music (finally!), but somehow there was internet problem, WIFI didn't work. I only could see that I have an e-mail with a temp list, but no internet to open it...

I started chopping some notes into Sibelius and went very underslept into the session. The session was wonderful, the small string section we hired saved the score, and we recorded a lot of effects (superball on timpanis, bowed guzhengs, bowed e-bass etc.)

Inbetween the director wrote to us that he had problems exporting the film, but he still wanted to release it on that specific date.

2 days left to create the score for a film I never saw. So we just started to pump-out music. I didn't sleep longer than 3hours, it was even my birthday. Originally I planned to do a small little gathering, but the project turned out so catastrophic I canceled everybody.

We managed to create around 37minutes of horror music in 2 days + 1-day recording session. We were really stunned that we pulled that off, there are even some gems in it.

The director thanked us and stoped the communication again. Never paid us, we spend a lot on the studio, musicians and even bought some equipment just for this project.

oof...

The budget is way too small to even attempt legal action, it doesn't help that we live on different continents.

I can't tell how sad I fell about that, I still love this job. But sometimes this business is a little devastating, you give so much for a person, cancel your personal life and work under any time frame. But still, they treat you like shit. And right now I see no way to deal with him. Should you call these people out in public? I don't know if that is the right direction... but yeah.


I told a few friends and colleagues and noticed nearly everybody hat a similar story, so please feel free to share your stories. I definitely would appreciate some more life lesson I could learn the easy way


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## g.c. (Feb 3, 2020)

For everyone putting forth labor for an expected renumeration, a contract should be a requirement, for both sides. Sometimes people hesitate to offend for fear of pushing up against the "sensitivities" of a hoped for client(everything on a handshake basis) and losing the work, but the only person a contract should be offensive to is someone who doesn't intend to honor there word. Unfortunately, in this case, pretty sure if you went to an attorney to sue for your rightful earning the 1st thing the attorney will ask for is to see your copy of the contract.
Learn from it, and be glad that this step for you was a relatively small one.
No legitimate film company would hire you without protective, vetted documentation.
Sorry that you have to go thru this!
g.c.


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## nolotrippen (Feb 3, 2020)

g.c. said:


> For everyone putting forth labor for an expected renumeration, a contract should be a requirement, for both sides.
> g.c.



Exactly. AND get 50% in advance, 50% on delivery. If they flake, at least you've got part of the cash which may just cover your expenses.


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## Diablo IV (Feb 3, 2020)

Since there is no hug "like" button I gave you a heart  Life's a bitch sometimes.


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## BlackDorito (Feb 3, 2020)

I've been stiffed twice - both on small jobs. In one case, I did the music for a modern dance concert, and since I also ran the sound for the show, I know she did not get a large enough audience to recoup. What I learned there is that you may need to stay 'arms-length', i.e. if you work closely and become part of the 'family' producing the show, you risk the assumption by the artists that you will share in the grief if it does not make a lot of $$. In the end, I felt bad for the choreographer, so I didn't press it. She worked so much harder than I did. In the other case, it was a location recording job for a singer with her klezmer band at the local JCC. Crackling good musicians and excellent show, and she asked for several different mixes, which was a lot of work. She never paid .. BUT she was a millennial and I had gotten the job through her dad .. who eventually covered for her. I generally don't do contracts for one night of recording and mix/master (and most of the other recording dudes I know don't either), but I wish I had for that one. On the bright side, the vast majority of people who have engaged me, have paid


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## erica-grace (Feb 3, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> The director thanked us and stoped the communication again. Never paid us, we spend a lot on the studio, musicians and even bought some equipment just for this project.



If you list a Fender Stratocaster for $5,000 on this message board's classifieds section, and I email you saying I want the guitar, would you send it to me before I pay you? No - you would require payment in full from me before you send the guitar.

Why then, would you send the music to the director before he pays you in full? That makes no sense.


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## MauroPantin (Feb 3, 2020)

Had something similar happen to me recently. Lesson learned: Get a contract.

It was not a lot of money (hence the lack of contract and formalities) but it still hurt. I did register as the music as soon as it was finished, just in case. So I am using the music elsewhere. The lack of payment (and lack of proof of any payment) grants me the opportunity to license, resell, distribute and make any and all uses of that music that I desire since there was no copyright transfer. It goes both ways.

My advice: You have something with tremendous production value. Make a horror music sample library. License the cues in a library. I don't know... Explore other avenues, don't let your hard work and creativity sitting idle in a hard drive.


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## mybadmemory (Feb 3, 2020)

Never start work before a contract is signed, and use staged payments. Either 50% up front, and 50% on delivery, for shorter projects. Or 33%/33%/33% for longer projects. Serious clients with serious projects never object to this.

And when it happens anyway, try to reuse what you created for other projects in any way you can.


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## dzilizzi (Feb 3, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> Had something similar happen to me recently. Lesson learned: Get a contract.
> 
> It was not a lot of money (hence the lack of contract and formalities) but it still hurt. I did register as the music as soon as it was finished, just in case. So I am using the music elsewhere. The lack of payment (and lack of proof of any payment) grants me the opportunity to license, resell, distribute and make any and all uses of that music that I desire since there was no copyright transfer. It goes both ways.
> 
> My advice: You have something with tremendous production value. Make a horror music sample library. License the cues in a library. I don't know... Explore other avenues, don't let your hard work and creativity sitting idle in a hard drive.


This is what I was thinking also. He can't come after you, as without a contract and payment, he technically doesn't own the right to anything.


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## Uiroo (Feb 4, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> Should you call these people out in public?


I would. 
Imagine you would've googled his name after his first call and someone wrote on VI-Control "that guy didn't pay me". If he isn't called out he can do this again and again. 
Calling people out is unpleasant, but it can help other people. 

To put it differently, wouldn't you call him out after he scammed you on ebay? 
I've seen people pointing out ebay sellers who're scamming on here, nobody seemed to have a problem with that. Maybe I just don't see the difference?


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## Daryl (Feb 4, 2020)

Unless you've worked with someone before, always get 100% of recording costs up front. You'll find that if you book a session orchestra in London, for example, if the recording costs are not paid a set number of days before the "downbeat", the sessions are cancelled. This is your excuse for asking for the money. It's not you, it's the demands of the musicians...! At least this way, you are not out of pocket.


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## Paul Grymaud (Feb 4, 2020)

Sad! Blacklist. It exists among professionals (musicians, studios, producers...). This is quite normal to protect oneself from people who are not serious.


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## lux (Feb 4, 2020)

it works as experience. 30 to 50% advance will do the trick next time. Don't be scared about asking advances, it's pretty standard, unless there are reasons you can do without (i.e. long term collaborations, standardized contract with highly established and affordable clients...).

Usually advance partial payment is a good reason for both parts to keep things on track.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 4, 2020)

nils its time to set sail and do some pillaging on his behalf. Paying for live musicians is brutal, but I absolutely cannot fathom having music stolen from me. I'm really not sure what else to say, just really sucks to hear that. I don't have any cool advise, I'll probably never make money from music - I'm just saying as a person to another person, that sucks.


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## Ben H (Feb 4, 2020)

Send some goons around to his place to collect.


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## Uiroo (Feb 4, 2020)

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## Beluga (Feb 4, 2020)

Client not paying sucks but you went a bit ahead of yourself. You can't reinforce the schedule of the client by respecting it yourself. It's certainly a bit forced and over the top to write and record the score without having the film and especially hiring musicians for it. I'd just drop it and hope he doesn't use the music anyway.


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## MauroPantin (Feb 4, 2020)

I want to add that I would not (and have not in my case) out the client online or shame them for stealing the music. 

While I understand the urge to do that, I think it reflects poorly to be discussing business conflicts online with the intention to execute a personal vendetta. So I'd say learn the lesson, use the music elsewhere, and move on.


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 4, 2020)

Beluga said:


> Client not paying sucks but you went a bit ahead of yourself. You can't reinforce the schedule of the client by respecting it yourself. It's certainly a bit forced and over the top to write and record the score without having the film and especially hiring musicians for it. I'd just drop it and hope he doesn't use the music anyway.



This was the schedule he set for us, I had to book a studio and musicians in advance. As I said, we had 10 days. I can't just book that a day before... So at that point there was no way back


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## Uiroo (Feb 4, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> I want to add that I would not (and have not in my case) out the client online or shame them for stealing the music.
> 
> While I understand the urge to do that, I think it reflects poorly to be discussing business conflicts online with the intention to execute a personal vendetta. So I'd say learn the lesson, use the music elsewhere, and move on.


Fair enough,
but I wouldn't really call it a discussion but rather stating a fact. He didn't pay. Nothing to discuss.
The intention doesn't have to be vendetta but as I mentioned warning business colleges.
Which is necessary, these guys can only pull it of as long as no one talks about it.

Maybe it really isn't a good idea to make it public. But I simply couldn't keep it together.
I'd tell EVERYONE.


Do you feel the same about ebay scammers, or do you think it's a different beast?


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 4, 2020)

lux said:


> it works as experience. 30 to 50% advance will do the trick next time. Don't be scared about asking advances, it's pretty standard, unless there are reasons you can do without (i.e. long term collaborations, standardized contract with highly established and affordable clients...).
> 
> Usually advance partial payment is a good reason for both parts to keep things on track.



I actually never thought that would normal thing. But I definitely will do that in future projects. 





Uiroo said:


> I would.
> Imagine you would've googled his name after his first call and someone wrote on VI-Control "that guy didn't pay me". If he isn't called out he can do this again and again.
> Calling people out is unpleasant, but it can help other people.
> 
> ...





MauroPantin said:


> I want to add that I would not (and have not in my case) out the client online or shame them for stealing the music.
> 
> While I understand the urge to do that, I think it reflects poorly to be discussing business conflicts online with the intention to execute a personal vendetta. So I'd say learn the lesson, use the music elsewhere, and move on.



these are the two positions I currently weigh up. Both make kinda sense.


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 4, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> Fair enough,
> but I wouldn't really call it a discussion but rather stating a fact. He didn't pay. Nothing to discuss.
> The intention doesn't have to be vendetta but as I mentioned warning business colleges.
> Which is necessary, these guys can only pull it of as long no one talks about it.
> ...



The funny thing is that this guy behaves like a real moral queen on his socials. Even calls people out for stealing ideas. Very weird guy...^^


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## MauroPantin (Feb 4, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> Fair enough,
> but I wouldn't really call it a discussion but rather stating a fact. He didn't pay. Nothing to discuss.
> The intention doesn't have to be vendetta but as I mentioned warning business colleges.
> Which is necessary, these guys can only pull it of as long no one talks about it.
> ...



I understand where you are coming from. But when someone scams you on eBay, you are the client. This is the reversal of that situation.

Other clients are going to look up your name in order to work with you. And they are going to find that post, too. It's a "he said, she said" situation and I don't feel it is beneficial for us as service providers. This client may very well state a response somewhere else saying the music was not good or whatever. And I'm sure it great but, unfortunately, the truth might be irrelevant when prospecting clients are looking you up. I don't want personal drama attached to my name. 

Put it another way: Imagine you are going to go to a restaurant. You look it up online and somebody left a bad review. It has a response from the owner, calling the customer an asshole. How do you feel about the restaurant? 

In this case, I went for the ownership of my mistake, learned my lesson and I am making the best of the situation. I understand wanting to out them online. I just won't do that, my real name is in all my accounts and I want all of my online interactions to be positive and constructive. I also want to keep my google search clean. I don't know what may be considered inappropriate or in bad taste 10 years from now.


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## wst3 (Feb 4, 2020)

An observation, not a judgement!

I think that anyone with experience in almost any venture other than the music/audio biz knows to get a deposit up front, and full payment before delivery, and to put all of that in writing in a contract.

How is it then that most composers, recording artists, and even engineers need to learn this the hard way?

That is not a rhetorical question.

Why don't we have a mechanism whereby newly minted folks are mentored in the mundane, but important business aspects?

Is it because most of us work by ourselves or with someone else that is similarly uninformed? Is there some concern that helping the new guy out could cost you jobs? Is it that the new guy never thinks to ask? 

I do sympathize. A long time ago I started a business doing studio maintenance. At first all my clients were broadcasters, and they know this is part of the cost of doing business... never had a problem. Then I started working for recording studios. The first client was part of an ad agency - again, no problems. And in all cases the employers provided the contracts.

Somehow I ended up getting one-off calls for repairs at smaller facilities. I didn't expect these guys to want any kind of long term contract, and it never dawned on me that I should have a per-project contract. Until I was stiffed.

At which point I did talk about the business aspects with several of my "competitors" (they were more like mentors). And I learned my lesson. I was still stiffed on rare occasions, and always because I listened to a sob story and violated my own rules.


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## MauroPantin (Feb 4, 2020)

wst3 said:


> How is it then that most composers, recording artists, and even engineers need to learn this the hard way?



Because when you go to music college (or any other place to study music, if you have the chance to do so) you get minimal contact with anything business-related (if any). People who are into art don't enjoy talking about money and contracts and hence, they don't do it until it becomes a necessity.


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## jononotbono (Feb 4, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> I have really strong emotions with that one... just have to get that out of the system, sorry for the rambling.
> 
> so my partner and I get a call from a director last September. He talked about his 20-minute horror short with a little budget for music, had to be done in 10 days. After that call, we exchanged a few e-mails. We could convince him of the idea to make the score with mostly real instruments. Definitely more work, but we got a low 4 digit offer for that.
> 
> ...



Why did this guy have a 10 day deadline when he didn’t even have a locked cut (or anything in fact) for you? People are so bizarre.

Sorry to hear. I guess the positive is that you have done some great recordings and you now have that in your musical vault for when an opportunity arises and you can use it.


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## Eduardo Lopez (Feb 4, 2020)

Oh, man... I can relate to this so much 

But yeah, Contract is a must and a 50% or at least 25% upfront before you touch a single key or pencil stroke. If he does not send anything, kindly remind me you are worried about deadlines since he has not sent anything and without a payment advance you can´t start working... If he gets mad, then he was not going to be a good client anyway... 

Also, you are not just a composer, you are a creative problem solver, and that is a rare skill. If he just wants background music, there are plenty of good music libraries to buy from


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## Beluga (Feb 4, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> This was the schedule he set for us, I had to book a studio and musicians in advance. As I said, we had 10 days. I can't just book that a day before... So at that point there was no way back


Well to be fair you suggested the studio to him in the first place. Clients give schedules but if they themselves don’t respect them you don’t need to either. If they don’t deliver the material you need to work you don’t work. You can’t. Don’t spend sleepless nights because your client is not well organised. Respect yourself it’s the most important thing.


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## VivianaSings (Feb 4, 2020)




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## Beluga (Feb 4, 2020)

This should go something like this: 

Filmmaker sends film
You write music to it
He validates
He sends money for the studio 
You book the studio
You record and deliver
He pays you for the music license 

From what I understand he didn’t even do the first step.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2020)

I once wrote and recorded some songs for the Hispanica Television Network, a kid's program sponsored by Apple, called - not surprisingly - Mr. Apple.

The casting session in Orange County had a lot of talented kids try out. It was in rented space across the street from the high-rise building where their offices were.

Guess what? It turned out there was no such thing as the Hispanica Television Network, let alone Mr. Apple.

The good news is that I hadn't hired singers, I just recorded composer's demos with my voice.

Point being, is there anyone who hasn't gone through this at least once?


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## musicalweather (Feb 4, 2020)

+1 for contracts. ALWAYS. Even if you're doing the work for free! The contract stipulates -- in addition to who pays whom and how much -- who owns the music (if it's free or a low-paying gig, it should aways be you), how the music can be used, and gives the client assurance -- in writing -- that the music is original. 

I've been stiffed only once, and yeah, it hurt. And I had a contract, and had been paid in advance and part of the way through. The film director made off without making the final payment. I talked to a lawyer (a free phone consultation via California Lawyers for the Arts), and she when she heard how much I was owed, she laughed. A paltry amount compared to her fee, I guess. So I had no means of going after the director. Didn't have an address for him, so couldn't serve him with papers. Not sure I would have done that anyway.

From then on, I always required a street address on my contracts, just in case I'm in the situation again where I need to serve someone papers. (By the way, it's not you, the suer, who can serve the papers. It has to be a law enforcement person or some third party.).

Contracts don't guarantee that someone won't rip you off. But I do think they encourage people to move in the direction of reasonable and lawful behavior.

Live and learn.


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## Kony (Feb 4, 2020)

@Nils Neumann are you able to email the director and tell him the music has your copyright on it and he can't use it unless he pays?


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## borisb2 (Feb 4, 2020)

Hallo Nils,



Nils Neumann said:


> He could convince him of the idea to make the score with mostly real instruments. Definitely more work, but we got a low 4 digit offer for that.
> ......
> The director thanked us...


ehmm, I'm not so sure about the (missing) contract thing.

I got once screwed over in music-production back in germany (EDM), dealing with an RnB dude (rather douchebag). We made an agreement, I delivered, he didnt pay and stopped communicating. First thing I did was going to a lawyer and ask for options. The lawyer wrote a letter and that dude responded I didnt deliver the agreed music. So in the end I couldnt prove that I did deliver. Case closed, lesson learned.

It sounds like your case is different. You made an agreement as well (email only?, phone-call were you and your partner were both listening? - he offered you something - do you have proof that you accepted this offer?), then you made the music, you delivered and he THANKED YOU (!!). Was that more like "thanks for the effort" or "thanks for (sending) this amazing music"? That could be key... Was that only email?

I once learned: it's all about the agreement. When I buy bread in a store, there HAS TO BE a price-tag and I HAVE to say I want 1 piece of bread - agreement done. nothing more is needed. This verbal agreement is as valid in court as any written one. The written contract is "just" about proving the mutual agreement later on. I'm not sure about the wording in your emails and also how much just these emails could hold up in court of course - but I would DEFINITLY go to a lawyer (1 session can't be too expensive), talk about options and get him to write a letter to that Vollidiot. To me that case is not closed.



Uiroo said:


> >> Should you call these people out in public?
> I would.


I would not - youre not sure if that douche would claim reputational damage in the end - better ask the lawyer


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## borisb2 (Feb 4, 2020)

quick research:
https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/to-what-extent-can-an-email-be-used-against-you-in-a-case-38187
*"Like with other pieces of documented evidence, an email can be used against someone in a case. However, emails have specific characteristics that put their authenticity into question.*
Therefore, to get emails admitted, lawyers must often take extra steps to demonstrate their reliability while still satisfying other rules of evidence that apply to other forms of communication..."

Brings me back to my first point ..


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2020)

I should add that the rented building even had a sign for the Hispanica Television Network!

To this day - like 30 years later - I have no idea what they were doing. Most likely they were scamming investors, but who knows.

Ron Granados was the guy's name. What a dick.





Nick Batzdorf said:


> I once wrote and recorded some songs for the Hispanica Television Network, a kid's program sponsored by Apple, called - not surprisingly - Mr. Apple.
> 
> The casting session in Orange County had a lot of talented kids try out. It was in rented space across the street from the high-rise building where their offices were.
> 
> ...


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## borisb2 (Feb 4, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Ron Granados


was that even his real name?


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## BlackDorito (Feb 4, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> was that even his real name?


Sounds kinda Hispanic ... so it musta been his real name.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> was that even his real name?



I think it probably was, because he came over to my apartment at the time to listen, and the two guys who were with him called him Ron - although it's possible that they were also people who'd been strung along.

Ron Granados is a fairly generic name, of course.

Amazing how much of this I remember after 30 years!


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## Diablo IV (Feb 4, 2020)

Not outing him is a mistake. But instead of doing it in the open maybe we could pm you if we feel we've encountered with him. In my country thieves were just stoned to death (ages ago). So outing him privately is giving him a silk/soft/white glove treatment.

I've given it all for people, so I know how does it feel to be in your situation.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 4, 2020)

Diablo3 said:


> In my country thieves were just stoned to death (ages ago). So outing him privately is giving him a silk/soft/white glove treatment.


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## Uiroo (Feb 4, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> Put it another way: Imagine you are going to go to a restaurant. You look it up online and somebody left a bad review. It has a response from the owner, calling the customer an asshole. How do you feel about the restaurant?


I'd probably never visit the restaurant. 
But you're setting up the wrong analogy.
If it would be like in this case, the owner's response would be "customer didn't pay".
Which I would feel very different about. 

But yeah, the legal aspect of reputational damage is an issue. 

Just out ouf curiosity, if a customer pays 50% and you start recording and then send him the finished music, but he doesn't pay the other 50%, does he have any rights to the music?
Can you just use it for something different if he doesn't pay the rest?


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## GtrString (Feb 5, 2020)

Seems like a clear case for putting the formalities up front in a professional business relationship. Advances and contracts should be at the top of the priorities list, and you need to be ready to let the project go, if a client wont comply to this.

It is simply a dealbreaker to not agree on some type of contract, including some sort of advance to kick off the work. If you lose a project on that basis, think about it as a way to screen the clients, they were not that serious anyway. Some are just looking for the next sucker to exploit, entertainment business are full of hustlers like that. Some are just kids that dont have what it takes. The paperwork can help you filter the bad guys away, so the coffee actually tastes good.

You dont want impossible clients that dont pay you for the work they require. You actually want to make sure you lose those types of “clients” even before something becomes an issue.

First priority for you now should be to set up some basic requirements for you to take projects in, and have agreements and fees worked out in advance. This is a lot of work, and may involve a lawyer, but you only need to have it done once, and then you are all set and ready to go pro.

Its called “setting up shop”.


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## GNP (Feb 5, 2020)

Never ever embark on anything unless a contract is signed, even more so when you have musicians to pay. The producer/director not being able to pay your fees is one thing - *but you not being able to pay the musicians you hire is just a dead end.* 

If you are quite desperate to work on a project nonetheless, and under these circumstances, just use mockups, no live stuff. Jumping the gun and hiring musicians when the movie's producer hasn't even agreed to sign a contract with you, is quite irresponsible.


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## W Ackerman (Feb 5, 2020)

Contract doesn't guarantee payment. I got a $13,000 judgement against a client, but he had all of his assets somehow hidden in his wife's trust. Never saw a penny besides having to pay my attorney's fees. He even stiffed his own attorney!


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## GNP (Feb 5, 2020)

W Ackerman said:


> Contract doesn't guarantee payment. I got a $13,000 judgement against a client, but he had all of his assets somehow hidden in his wife's trust. Never saw a penny besides having to pay my attorney's fees. He even stiffed his own attorney!



Jesus! Wtf!


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## Beluga (Feb 5, 2020)

Unfortunately having a contract and reinforcing a contract are two very different things. :D


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## GNP (Feb 5, 2020)

Beluga said:


> Unfortunately having a contract and reinforcing a contract are two very different things. :D



Indeed.


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## Mason (Feb 9, 2020)

The only time I was stupid enough to not have a contract or a payment in advance was the time the money didn’t arrive.

After months of waiting I sent an email to an attorney with the client on copy. It turned out that this was enough and he paid very quickly.

It was an urgent job which was why we didn’t make a contract or cared about a payment in advance, but that was stupid. I always require 50% upon signing the contract.


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## filipjonathan (Feb 9, 2020)

Great advice guys! 

I do have a question regarding contracts, though, it might sound dumb but I have zero experience in these sorts of things. When you send a potential client a copy via email, he signs a physical copy, then scans it and sends it back. And then you sign it and send it to him? Or you do it first?

Also, would anyone be willing to share an example of their contract? I am very interested to see all the things you include in it.


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## quidam (Feb 27, 2020)

Got only 1/3 of what I was supposed to get when working on a 2-hour feature in 2018. Later it turned out the whole crew but one actor were undercut. They said they'll pay me the rest when they find the distributor even though I was supposed to get another 1/3 upon submitting the last cues. It's 2020 and they still haven't found the distributor! Now they tell me they are planning to "release it on their own" (whatever it could mean) in February which I'm very doubtful about. And the movie isn't listed on IMDb, there's no online info about it at all, so technically I wasn't even paid in exposure money, lol.
We've signed a contract and I guess I could take legal action if the fee was much bigger than it is. But what stops me is that the production company and me are in different countries and it would mean too much hustle, hiring a lawyer would cost more than the said fee. It was a good lesson for me though: always take the money upfront on indie projects (since I doubt major ones do the same). So, in that situation I could have taken the second 1/3 when completing half of the film and the final 1/3 just before sending out the final stems.


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## jonnybutter (Feb 27, 2020)

Similar to Nick's story, but worse! A pretty good kind of soulful, gospel singer/songwriter needed a music director for his live band which would record an album, build a show, then tour. I was thrilled to be hired to arrange for and rehearse what turned out to be a large and very skilled bunch of musicians from all over the US. We all had to move to Dallas to work on his project - I came from the midwest, but others had come from as far as LA. I did have a contract, but no $ upfront (stupid me; did I mention I was thrilled...?).

We got there and were put up in a decent hotel, and worked a few days in a nice, big rehearsal facility which also had a fairly high end recording studio. I wrote a bunch of arrangements and rehearsed the band for a few days. It was sounding pretty good! But we didn't see much of the singer or the business guy. On the day we were to get paid for the first week..no one showed up to pay us. We finally heard that the money was forthcoming, to just be patient. Then the next day and the next came and went, and no cash. Then we all got calls from the hotel management, telling us we had to get out - the bill hadn't been paid. 

We never heard from either the business manager or the singer again - just nothing. It was about 12 of us who had actually moved to Dallas to do this! Totally stiffed. Mystifying! We could never figure out if the guy had an investor who pulled out, or never had any money and thought if he hired a band, someone would appear with money (that was my theory, because it seemed more in character). ouch.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 27, 2020)

jonnybutter said:


> It was about 12 of us who had actually moved to Dallas to do this!



Wow. My sympathies.


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## jonnybutter (Feb 28, 2020)

Yeah, thanks. I felt especially bad for the percussionist who flew from LA with giant flight cases full of instruments. Must have cost him a fortune!

Often, I think cons work because the conned person *wants* to believe. sigh. It's not easy being a musician


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