# Jamstik MIDI guitar?



## eric_w (Mar 15, 2022)

Any guitarists here try the Jamstik? There's a bunch of videos on youtube but they seem overly positive and probably sponsored. From my own experience I've really hated the accuracy and tracking of lower to mid end MIDI guitars and plugins.

Is it worth the $800 price tag? Can I finally leave this purgatory of acting like a pianist?


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## MauroPantin (Mar 15, 2022)

Haven't used it, but I have used the Jam Origin plugin that tracks audio to MIDI a few years ago, and it worked quite well for guitar at what I thought was a much more reasonable price tag to give it a shot. Now, I know that's not what you're asking about, but I mention it because I discovered something that in hindsight seems obvious regarding translating guitar performances to MIDI, but it wasn't for me at the time. 

It doesn't matter what samples you trigger with the MIDI performance, if you are not careful, it still sounds like a guitar is being played. Noodling around the guitar as you do with a pentatonic or some other typical guitar staple will get you that same vibe, regardless of the virtual instrument involved. And it does not always translate that well for traditional orchestration, guitar voicings are hit and miss. This will affect the audio to midi plugin, the Jamstick, or any other method as long as a guitar is involved.


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## MusiquedeReve (Mar 15, 2022)

What about recording guitar audio then getting the MIDI notes from Melodyne?


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 16, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> What about recording guitar audio then getting the MIDI notes from Melodyne?



It works, but it is a slower process with quite a bit of tidying and editing required. If hearing the sound you make is important for the recording process, then it won't help much as you won't be able to do that. It's definitely worth experimenting, though. 

I'd think fitting a dedicated midi pick-up is the best option for guitar but, really, I'm happy to stick to using a keyboard for midi so I haven't shopped around.


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## carlc (Mar 16, 2022)

The Fishman TriplePlay is pretty good if you want a hardware solution. Jam Origin, however, is significantly less expensive and works surprisingly well. In all cases, you will have some ghost notes and cleanup to do, but they track pretty well. 

I thought the TriplePlay would have a significant advantage since it has independent pickups for each string, but it didn't really outperform Jam Origin. Probably the main advantage would be if you needed MIDI guitar for live performance and didn't want to incorporate a laptop into your stage setup. I didn't have that need, so I ended up selling my TriplePlay.


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## gsilbers (Mar 16, 2022)

The problem with that one as well as any other pitch to midi guitar is that tracking will always suck no matter what you do. 
why? simple... 

there is no real note off and envelope acuracy in these things. ITs only the "best" it can get... which is still worst than a $30 old maudio keyboard. So anything like sustains or playing and or holding several notes at the same times fails. 

dont you think there arent pitch to midi alternatives for piano? OF course there are. Hans zimmer could easily grab one of these and put in his million dollar piano (or whatever he could afford) and still would say... this sucks. why? 
because its pitch to midi technology. And it has plenty of short comings compared to any midi keyboard. 

The issue is not really about tech. The issue is a cultural one. A philosophy of forcing the electric guitar and its electric guitar playing method into the midi world. Where the only thing that plays like an Electric guitar is an electric guitar. And the tech so figure out what a E guitar is doing is not really there.. nor i think itll be ever there. 

Ive been buying and selling midi guitars since 2003. Ive tried them all. Bough tthe ztar at like $6000 and sold it becuase they ALL are trying to be an electric guitar. Which for that.. then play electric guitar. 

Every video review i see its someone wailing steve satriani type solos with a synth patch and then saying tracking is not that good. like wtf are you doing?! Why just not get a kemper and record a guitar solo?! 

With all that said... my comments its stricly for midi sequencing. For live playing fishman tripleplay works ok. And the idea is not to replace a guitar player and live guitar playing with midi instruments goes up to what you want to do on stage, which might not replace a live brass band or hamond player might give some sort of color of it. And in live scenarios you can hide more the shortcomings of pitch to midi. 

so which is a good midi guitar controller? 

for me its one that has buttons and good right hand sensitivity. Mainly because imo the only way to use a guitar midi for sequencing is to play with fingers like you are playing a nylons string guitar. Where every voice matters and not its strumming... or playing palm mute, or playing bends, or playing other odd guitar articulations. 
For midi guitar you are just doing what keyboard players do.. which is to lay down notes for others instruments can later be triggered via samples. At most its the mod wheel and expression controller, maybe pitch bend. Which you can have midi pedals. 

I bascially use the fender mustang midi guitar. A cheap toylike guitar meant to be used with rockband3 so now i got a second one for like $30 bucks! I had to get used to the odd botton but the right hand sensitivy is the best. 
The other one is the casio EZ-AG which can be hacked. I failed at hacking it so im still with the fender. 

IF anyone is still adamant about electric then the fender midi's big brother imo is kinda the best becaue it doesnt rely on picth to midi. There are buttons inside the neck. very cool tech which i dont know why it doesnt go anywhere. IT still has and feels like an electric guitar but the pressed strings will press buttons inside the neck. Which means you can play sustains and melodic sustain without issues. (pitch to midi will just sustain everything which sounds horrible like pressing sustain pedal in a piano all the time and overlapping notes.)
The only issue with this fender midi squeir is the right hand sensitivity which again... is trying to be an electric guitar so you have to play with a pick. Which therefore its not really usefull for sequencing. 

Hope it helps. Its been 20 years figuring out this stuff. Thinking i suck or im crazy. ITs really its just a philosophy thing and a feedback loop of manufactures trying to appease demand by putting other pitch to midi controllers out there with some new twist or some marketing gimmick. That somehow their algorithm will be able to know if you are playing a palmute, or bend, or 1000notes per second or sustain all in one whoop, which is just crazy. The real breakthrough is to just think more simply... nylon string and with fingers. (again... for sequencing). 

And last paragraph just to note that once you open yourself up to using your hands and playing finger styles youll be amazed on how many cool things you can do. Youll become much better than the average composer. Chord progressions for cinematic styles become so easy. Chromatic mediant and other complex harmonic theory stuff just fly wihtin you because you are just going up and down the neck and pressing two or three notes of a full chord so leading tones, wierd progressions etc. so much easier then in piano. Because you already know it, it comes natural.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 16, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> The problem with that one as well as any other pitch to midi guitar is that tracking will always suck no matter what you do.
> why? simple...
> 
> there is no real note off and envelope acuracy in these things. ITs only the "best" it can get... which is still worst than a $30 old maudio keyboard. So anything like sustains or playing and or holding several notes at the same times fails.
> ...



It sounds like it's been a long, hard road!

My own limited experience is definitely consistent with what you say about playing like it's a nylon stringed guitar.


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## milford59 (Mar 16, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Ive been buying and selling midi guitars since 2003. Ive tried them all. Bough tthe ztar at like $6000 and sold it becuase they ALL are trying to be an electric guitar. Which for that.. then play electric guitar.


When you say you have tried them all - does that include the Expressiv MIDI Pro from ROR Guitars.
https://www.rorguitars.com/products/expressiv-midi-pro

The latency is virtually zero because it’s not pitch-to-midi - the note is sensed by fretting a string. You get what you pay for with this type of instrument. I have a bass guitar version of this and it’s awesome.


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## gsilbers (Mar 16, 2022)

milford59 said:


> When you say you have tried them all - does that include the Expressiv MIDI Pro from ROR Guitars.
> https://www.rorguitars.com/products/expressiv-midi-pro
> 
> The latency is virtually zero because it’s not pitch-to-midi - the note is sensed by fretting a string. You get what you pay for with this type of instrument. I have a bass guitar version of this and it’s awesome.




I remember the first one. I skipped on that one. Price wise and time wise (it was like a year pre order when i last time checked) and was just to much when the tech is similar to the fender squire (minus the extra pad). And still, the emphasis is on electric guitar. I did really want to try it out, but again.. my comment is more of the philosophy about the whole thing and a reasonable alternative.

Done get me wrong. It is a cool guitar and im sure it has its uses. I do like now that it has the touch sensitive buttons. But the issue is still the same. The main philosophy around it. I saw all the videos, and of course 90% of them are using a pick and wailing bends and that sort of stuff. And the strings dont seem to have any velocity sensitivity. And i didnt see a single video sequencing. Only one playing a piano, which was good.
But again, if thats what you want then cool. At $3,299 im sure youd have ot be serious about the thing vs a triple play and other similar prodcuts out there. This one does have several onboard stuff which are nice.

Look, one of the reason i put a long ass post is to make sure people understand the context im coming from, which is sequencing. And sequencing like you would on a cheap keyboard. Because lets be real, that $3k thing wont let you sequence like a crappy $50 used maudio keyboard controller. Sure looks fun though.
I worked a little for hector pereira and he uses an expensive ztar, it did have some amazing features. Some advance midi stuff and other cool stuff that i wish was more common. He uses that to compose for minions and all those cool orchestral scores.

So ive been around and know all that sort of amazing midi guitars, but yet, if i want to sequence a simple piano it becomes a whole thing of editing or having to shell out $3k. And yet the right hand sensitivity is not going to be as good as playing with a pick, like intended.

Once more.. the point is that im trying to open up poepls minds about what a midi guitar shouldbe for sequencing and one thing i know is that guitar players are really stuck in their ways. Show a flashy video of a cool gadget at a with bends and wialing solos at very high price and you will easily convince a lot of poeple they finally nailed a midi guitar. But tell them , hey.. how about if for sequencing you just use your fingers and not have an electric guitar? and its nope.. you are wrong.. its crazy.. wtf are you even saying? Its not even part of their reality.

So i might order that one just to try it out since i like learning of new ways, but im pretty sure just like all the others ill eventaully sell it at a loss. And i will still go grab my $28-$60 toy like controller with buttons to sequence orchestral music, simple piano wiht dynamics and so on. Its not that this wont work, its just that for that price and for what i need its not for me. I know its not for me.. but im still gonna get it eventually. Hopefully it catches on and they it becomes a hit. But that the issue with these instruments, guitar players are not a big buch of sequencing fans and rather just record guitar. And the ones who do, well, we have to pay a lot. The one thing i mgith enjoy about this one is that it combines guitar and midi so its a one stop solution. The fender squier did that as well but youd have to add that x/y pad (forgot the name, you add it to any guitar). 

And of course, im no way saying the toylike midi controller will be better than this new thing.. specially if you have to go out in front of people or even at your studio doing a video. But if anyone wants to sequence filmscores or anything else, then useyour fingers... it will open so much your posibilities.


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## sumVI (Mar 16, 2022)

From what I can tell from various videos, it doesn't seem like the Jamstick tracks any better than the Fishman Triple Play or Roland GK-3 pickups (of which I have two). So, I've decided to pass.

My next move might be the Jam Origin Midi Guitar combined with a breath controller, like the guy in this video...


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## carlc (Mar 16, 2022)

milford59 said:


> When you say you have tried them all - does that include the Expressiv MIDI Pro from ROR Guitars.
> https://www.rorguitars.com/products/expressiv-midi-pro
> 
> The latency is virtually zero because it’s not pitch-to-midi - the note is sensed by fretting a string. You get what you pay for with this type of instrument. I have a bass guitar version of this and it’s awesome.



Looks awesome, but €2,990 is steep! I would rather see one without the XY pad. To be honest, that pad will likely look pretty dated in 5 years. The fretboard scanner is really the star of the show IMHO.


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## Jish (Mar 16, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> The issue is not really about tech. The issue is a cultural one. A philosophy of forcing the electric guitar and its electric guitar playing method into the midi world. Where the only thing that plays like an Electric guitar is an electric guitar. And the tech so figure out what a E guitar is doing is not really there.. nor i think itll be ever there.
> 
> I bascially use the fender mustang midi guitar. A cheap toylike guitar meant to be used with rockband3 so now i got a second one for like $30 bucks! I had to get used to the odd botton but the right hand sensitivy is the best.
> The other one is the casio EZ-AG which can be hacked. I failed at hacking it so im still with the fender.


I was inspired to track down and purchase a used 'YouRock' model after listening to a guy on youtube improvise over several Coltrane and Holdsworth tunes. The 'Tap' function on that particular unit allows right-hand free 'legato' (no, string legato police...not this time). While this is very interesting for playing single lines, and the unit is remarkably accurate given it's 'Guitar Hero' origins (..._fuck_) there is still an undeniable latency inherit that even my cheapest keyboard just doesn't have. I mean, it has something to do with the sensitivity of the buttons/sensor, but what _exactly_ is influencing that to create the slight but ever-present latency...not sure. Ideally, it would be great to have a model that was as sensitive and accurate as one of the million non-weighted keyboards in existence, but it just isn't the case unfortunately. Still, it is impressive in it's own right given the history and release pricing that the YouRock had.

Can't agree more on the 'Culture vs Tech' point above- just said it perfectly. It's beyond frustrating to watch some of those online/Youtube 'demos' of this stuff. I remember reading on a review of one of the more boutique models someone bemoaning how the guitar as instrument was 'neglected' by MIDI technology for decades now- I understood exactly where he was coming from, however there was no mystery in the reality for me- the overwhelming majority of the 'bread and butter' guitar community could really careless to use it the way he (or I) would've preferred...


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## gsilbers (Mar 17, 2022)

Jish said:


> I was inspired to track down and purchase a used 'YouRock' model after listening to a guy on youtube improvise over several Coltrane and Holdsworth tunes. The 'Tap' function on that particular unit allows right-hand free 'legato' (no, string legato police...not this time). While this is very interesting for playing single lines, and the unit is remarkably accurate given it's 'Guitar Hero' origins (..._fuck_) there is still an undeniable latency inherit that even my cheapest keyboard just doesn't have. I mean, it has something to do with the sensitivity of the buttons/sensor, but what _exactly_ is influencing that to create the slight but ever-present latency...not sure. Ideally, it would be great to have a model that was as sensitive and accurate as one of the million non-weighted keyboards in existence, but it just isn't the case unfortunately. Still, it is impressive in it's own right given the history and release pricing that the YouRock had.
> 
> Can't agree more on the 'Culture vs Tech' point above- just said it perfectly. It's beyond frustrating to watch some of those online/Youtube 'demos' of this stuff. I remember reading on a review of one of the more boutique models someone bemoaning how the guitar as instrument was 'neglected' by MIDI technology for decades now- I understood exactly where he was coming from, however there was no mystery in the reality for me- the overwhelming majority of the 'bread and butter' guitar community could really careless to use it the way he (or I) would've preferred...



I did find the big brother of the you rock interesting. I think it’s called lineage or something. 
The neck and shape was cool.
The “strings” button thing was clever. 
But had my issues with right hand sensitivity.
I don’t remember the latency though.

And yeah, the culture is not in favor of guitar players trying to sequence film/orchestral. It seems guitar players just want to play guitar with another sound but making it sound as close as possible to a guitar. And are very careful about the tone of their guitar.


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## gsilbers (Mar 17, 2022)

carlc said:


> Looks awesome, but €2,990 is steep! I would rather see one without the XY pad. To be honest, that pad will likely look pretty dated in 5 years. The fretboard scanner is really the star of the show IMHO.


If u are interested, The fretboard thing is the same as the fender squier midi. (Not the one w internal pitch to midi). It has a thicker neck where the components are. So it tracks where you place the fingers. 
This one does look nicer. The fender’s neck is rather odd because it’s hollow.
But still tracking/sustains are good.

Here is that one









Fender Squier Stratocaster MIDI Controller Guitar | Reverb


This guitar was designed by Fender as a Rock Band 3 game controller but few people realize that this is one of the best MIDI controller guitars on the market. If you connect it to a computer and run a sampler software like Kontakt you can play virtually any instrument: acoustic, electric, 12 stri...




reverb.com






I agree w the pad. But on stage it would probably rock.


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## eric_w (Mar 19, 2022)

So many informative comments in this thread, thank you.

I decided to order the Jamstik. After spending a day and a half with it, here are my thoughts:

Tracking is surprisingly accurate, probably the best I've experienced. However there are plenty of shortcomings. The software, including VST3, was insanely buggy on my PC. This is a deal breaker because it's how you adjust string sensitivity and other essential options. The software had trouble detecting the guitar even though Cubase could detect it immediately. Weird. With my UAD Apollo at lowest buffer size, I noticed there is inherent latency with the guitar. Like some of you guys mentioned in this thread, these guitars can't seem to compete with a cheap MIDI keyboard's low latency. Or maybe it's my system because the youtube videos I watched appeared to have no discernable latency. The string action was brutal, and with some adjustments, it's still too high for my liking (yes, I'm picky). I'm not willing to adjust the bridge and truss rod more than I already have. I know some of these downsides might sound trivial but after reading the comments here, a YouRock or Rockband Mustang guitar might be a better pick with all things (price) considered. If I'm spending $30 or a hundred bucks, I accept all the shortcomings, but at $600-800, I expect a bit more out of the product. If Jamstik was, I dunno, $200-400 I'd probably keep it and give a good review considering the price.

Something I did like about the Jamstik - the body of the guitar is smaller than the standard guitar and felt great! I'd like to see more electric guitars have the 3/4 size bodies. It's also a sexy looking guitar.

I've used Jam Origin Midi Guitar 2 plugin - it was decent but I was never happy with the tracking. IMO Jamstik tracking is superior. However, when comparing the prices, the technological leap between the Jam Origin and Jamstik is not that much, so I'd rather stick with the Jam Origin and save a few hundred bucks. And apparently Jam Origin is coming out with an updated plugin soon.

I want to support companies offering us guitarists a future with MIDI guitars as a replacement to MIDI keyboard controllers. But meh.

The other MIDI guitar I'm curious about is the Jammy E, but it's still pre-order phase (btw can we move away from the goofy "jam" names?).

@gsilbers - regarding older rockband MIDI guitars, do they only have a MIDI port? How do you go about connecting them to an interface that doesn't have MIDI ports for tracking? I forgot MIDI ports existed, haven't used one in years


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## milford59 (Mar 20, 2022)

At the end of the day, all of the cheaper “MIDI Guitars” use some kind of pitch-to-MIDI conversion. that means the string has to vibrate a certain number of times before the converter has any chance of determining what note you are playing. Latency is therefore inevitable and cannot be overcome.


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## noiseinmymind (Mar 31, 2022)

I just spent 4 hours trying to compose with Jam Origin's Midi Guitar 2. IMO the tracking is not sufficient enough to get any serious work done. Again IMO, it's just a glorified toy. I prefer just clicking the notes into the grid. Time consuming? Very much so, but it's an accurate effective work flow for me.


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## gsilbers (Mar 31, 2022)

eric_w said:


> So many informative comments in this thread, thank you.
> 
> I decided to order the Jamstik. After spending a day and a half with it, here are my thoughts:
> 
> ...




the only negatives about the fender mustang...

Getting used to the bottons. Right right hand sensitivity is very cool for finger style. but the buttons its
about getting used to it. The buttons on the yamaha EZ-AG are better but it has its other issues but could be as good imo. But getting over the clacky buttons and seeing them as just like a midi keyboard instead of strings and playing with fingers enabled me to do very complex chord progresions i would never ever would do in a keyboard. or find scales and melodies i leanred. etc. 

the midi out is only the old style 5pin. so far most audio interfaces have midi 5pin so its no issue. or some midi keyboard have an in. or random synths.
ebay has a bunch of usb to midi interfaces thats just one cable. I also bought the midi expression interface which is usb and you can connect midi devices and it has an app to modify the midi. it works for expression pedals, sustain pedals. changing midi cc from expressino pedal to cc1 etc.

The default setup is each string transmits on a different midi channels. so string 1 is midi channel 1, string 2 is midi channel 2, etc. Therefore in logic i have to set ALL/omni in multi kontakt instruments. Not a big deal its just adjusting the setups like also in omnisphere where its 8 tracks so logic needs to be set in channel all. and other minor stuff like that.

So this is the real reason im trying to sell everyone this midi guitar. Its amazing for tracking and laying down notes ideas. w/o the pitch bend, hamer on pull off and other electric gtr sentir playing but i wish more people who are into hacking would do some sort of app to mod it so all strings play in midi channel one. Or custome veloclity curves could be applied. and even have a way to play two or more notes att he same time per string. (something the ztar can do). I also use logic midi plugins to help w velocity and other cool things but still.

I think the reasoning is for guitar players to have a synth bass in channel 6. or for drums where each string is triggering a differet sound module. (old term).


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## 60s Pop Man (Jun 15, 2022)

If guitar is your primary or only instrument, then a MIDI guitar controller is a viable option for inputting MIDI and live performance. Clean and accurate playing technique is an absolute requirement in both cases.
- MIDI input: Works great with step entry. Recorded MIDI will require removal of a range of false triggers: short and/or low velocity notes. Custom Transform presets will easily clean up the recording. Score editor display quantization, interpretation, and syncopation settings will improve the score view.

A tolerance for the imperfect is a requisite personality trait and a familiarity with how your controller performs will inform the required clean up approaches.

I have used a range of MG controllers over the years beginning with the Yamaha G10. My only claim is that I've had a fair amount of experience optimizing settings for the singular purpose of inputting MIDI. The claims below are based on my experiences.

The Jamstik Studio MIDI is in my experience $800.00 worth of buyer's remorse based on fiddly connection issues and the extreme challenges of using the tuning mechanism to achieve reasonable tuning accuracy. At times, playing with a pick results in fast tracking of not-so-fast picked passages... Fingerstyle playing does not work well at all for me.

The JamOrigin MIDI Guitar 2 app (MG2) is nothing short of amazing given that it's a software solution. It's not perfect but I can set up any electric guitar on hand for the single cost of the app and save recallable presets for all of them. If I'm away from my studio with a MBP and small interface like the MOTU M2, then I'm all set for electric guitar and MIDI input with the MG2.

The Fishman Triple Play in my opinion provides the best accuracy and tracking speed of pitch-to-MIDI devices. I don't use the Fishman software for anything other than tuning and setting up presets for pick and finger styles of playing.

My favorite set up remains a Godin LGX-SA and Roland GI-20 for tracking accuracy with either pick or fingers.


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## LoFiLeif (Jun 15, 2022)

I absolutely agree with a lot of things here, like how "clean and accurate playing technique is an absolute requirement" for any use of guitar or guitarlike midi controller to input MIDI in a similar fashion to that of how we have used keyboards up until now. I would almost argue that it har been borderline impossible given the latency issues. But perhaps we should look at the place for MIDI guitar as a complement to the Keyboaed instead of its replacement? Myself I can't play piano to save my life, but I love the expressive capabilities in the MIDI Guitar setup I use myself, and I have yet to see a rival setup with the same dynamic flexibility. Perhaps all "latency cannot be overcome", but it can most certainly be accomodated for in practice, given just that: enough practice. 
I understand that everybody isn't interested in devoting hours every day to practice for something that they will only use once every now and then, but for me MIDI Guitar 2 is way more of a glorious tool than a glorified toy. 

But having said that, I too click my notes onto the piano roll, whenever I do a mockup.


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