# Adding a "personal touch" to known themes?



## tarantulis (Jan 8, 2016)

So I'm doing a score for a Star Wars fan fiction short film and the director has a handful of songs from the original JW score set as the cues for several scenes, and would like them to be mimicked pretty heavily. He is open to my adding a "personal touch", but only if it matches the original tone/cues/guidelines.

I'm very new to scoring (only done four short films) and orchestration in general--and only began actually learning theory and piano last year (always played by ear before that), so pretty much a wide-eyed pupil here. I'm basically torn between which approach to take here: Should I take this world-renown score, the mechanics of which I can barely wrap my brain around as it is, and try to insert some originality? Or would it be more beneficial to simply replicate the song beat-for-beat by ear in mock-up form, thus creating a sound I know the director will like, and giving myself a lesson in orchestration/arrangement by dissecting a classic by ear and seeing what each instrument is doing?

I realize it's a subjective question, but I'm looking for opinions. Replicating the original score with a virtual orchestra is a daunting enough task (though I've done this with other scores in the past), and I fear that too much personal touch will put me in over my head or will simply not sound good. Someone on VI recently posted their own version of the new SW trailer, and it sounded amazing and highly original--but completely out of my league skill-wise. On the other hand, this is probably the best-looking film I've gotten the chance to work on so far, and it would be nice to create something I could actually add to my portfolio.

So, thoughts? Are beat-for-beat mock-up covers of classic works a good way to learn the craft? Is there a creative way to imitate motifs or other source sounds?

Thanks in advance for the input.


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## Morodiene (Jan 9, 2016)

Personally, I'd do something original. Someone else did the original version of it, and there's really no need for that to be done again, IMO.

I think you can take the themes and since they are so recognizable, add your own flavor to them and the audience will still enjoy it as long as those themes are prominent. Plus, I personally think that doing an arrangement is much more creative a task than beat-by-beat mock-up.

On the other hand, doing the latter _is_ a good way to learn the craft. So the question is, do you want to do that on someone else's dime? Either way you will learn and grow from this experience, so it's entirely up to you.

Note: I have not done anything like this and I'm only offering an opinion, but not based on experience. So, take it for whatever it's worth


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## Lassi Tani (Jan 13, 2016)

For that project I would go with John Williams sound, but not using the same motifs. I'm not even sure, when it's considered plagiarism. Perhaps when you are using exactly same motifs. Utilizing same techniques and textures is totally okay, and if that's what the director is asking for, use the famous JW style, but invent your own themes, motifs and melodies.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 13, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> So I'm doing a score for a Star Wars fan fiction short film and the director has a handful of songs from the original JW score set as the cues for several scenes, and would like them to be mimicked pretty heavily. He is open to my adding a "personal touch", but only if it matches the original tone/cues/guidelines.
> 
> I'm very new to scoring (only done four short films) and orchestration in general--and only began actually learning theory and piano last year (always played by ear before that), so pretty much a wide-eyed pupil here. I'm basically torn between which approach to take here: Should I take this world-renown score, the mechanics of which I can barely wrap my brain around as it is, and try to insert some originality? Or would it be more beneficial to simply replicate the song beat-for-beat by ear in mock-up form, thus creating a sound I know the director will like, and giving myself a lesson in orchestration/arrangement by dissecting a classic by ear and seeing what each instrument is doing?
> 
> ...



The rescored trailer was almost only based on motifs by John Williams so it wasn´t that much really original but it was of course exceptionally well done. I am not sure what to tell you here though the risk of doing a ridiculous bad interpretation of Williams is pretty high, not because I doubt on your skills but because I know that this "writing in the vein" of Williams is a very delicate subject. I don´t know your orchestration / writing / arranging and mixing skills so I am not sure what advice I can give you, but one thing I tell you: Better do the easier stuff "really good" instead of "difficult things" really bad. So avoid burning the candle at both ends.


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## tarantulis (Jan 13, 2016)

Thanks all. I sent the director a mockup cover of the original score and he liked it a lot.

Now that I have some confidence in my ability to recreate the JW sound, perhaps i can start deviating from the source material and insert a few ideas of my own. We'll see what works.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 13, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> Thanks all. I sent the director a mock-up cover of the original score and I he liked it a lot.
> 
> Now that I have some confidence in my ability to recreate the JW sound, perhaps i can start deviating from the source material and insert a few ideas of my own. We'll see what works.



Would you mind sharing that demo to us here? Thx.


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## tarantulis (Jan 13, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Would you mind sharing that demo to us here? Thx.


Sure. I'll post it later tonight once I get home.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 13, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> Sure. I'll post it later tonight once I get home.


Sounds cool - Thank you man.


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## KEnK (Jan 13, 2016)

Pardon my cynism, but I've had more than my share of directors w/ a bad case of temp love.
Prepare yourself for your efforts, no matter how good, to be unsatisfactory.
The problem is directors in a case like this don't want your work,
they want what they can't have or won't pay for.
A lose-lose scenario if there ever was one.

Best to look at it as a "technical exercise" and not get emotionally involved w/ what you create.
Temp scores...
suck 

k

p.s. Just started a thread in Universe Repair about temp scores in film history.
Curious about that


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## tarantulis (Jan 13, 2016)

Good advice.

I think you're right that i should see it as more a technical exercise. My problem is that this is the best-looking picture I've scored to date...so the urge to use this as a platform to showcase my composition skills---and thus be able to put my work for this film at the forefront of my portfolio---is high. A beat-for-beat cover of the original score would feel like a waste of my talents.

That being said, I plan to submit at least one semi-original piece, because the director isn't entirely inflexible. For instance: He was dead set on the Imperial March being played throughout this scene, but I felt that the scene needed more emotion and subtlety, so the draft I submitted used "Imperial Attack" from episode IV. When I sent it I made sure to add a note stating that I knew it wasn't Imperial March-sounding but rather a different "option". He immediately got back to me, said he loved it, and decided it fit the scene better than "Imperial March" ever did.

Temp love is a real issue I read about a lot in scoring lit, but an even more common one seems to be that they sometimes just don't know what they want until they hear it.


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## KEnK (Jan 13, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> My problem is that this is the best-looking picture I've scored to date...so the urge to use this as a platform to showcase my composition skills---and thus be able to put my work for this film at the forefront of my portfolio---is high. A beat-for-beat cover of the original score would feel like a waste of my talents.


A cover or mock up would also be illegal.
You can still do an excellent job within the confines of the project.
Continue to press your own ideas, maybe he'll like them.


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## tarantulis (Jan 13, 2016)

KEnK said:


> A cover or mock up would also be illegal.
> You can still do an excellent job within the confines of the project.
> Continue to press your own ideas, maybe he'll like them.



This brings up an interesting point: What are the legalities of using ANYTHING from the original score?


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## KEnK (Jan 13, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> What are the legalities of using ANYTHING from the original score?


You need permission and will probably have to pay a fee.
Doing "covers" has always been that way.
(a "sound-alike" is a different matter)

k


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## ed buller (Jan 13, 2016)

why don't you go back to where he got his influences from and re-work a bit of Holst and Stravinsky...you'll learn loads and won't owe anyone any money !

e


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## scottbuckley (Jan 13, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> This brings up an interesting point: What are the legalities of using ANYTHING from the original score?


As long as it all stays in the realm of 'fan fiction', you'll be fine. Just don't hope to sell your soundtrack afterwards... :D


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## scottbuckley (Jan 13, 2016)

ed buller said:


> why don't you go back to where he got his influences from and re-work a bit of Holst and Stravinsky...you'll learn loads and won't owe anyone any money !
> 
> e


Yes! I approve.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 13, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> This brings up an interesting point: What are the legalities of using ANYTHING from the original score?



Illegal. Without permission, that is, as Ken already stated.



scottbuckley said:


> As long as it all stays in the realm of 'fan fiction', you'll be fine.



Not really true. CI is always on a case by case basis, but typically, 'fan fiction' is in fact plagiarism. It is not fair use, and is most of the time an unauthorized derivative work.

However, a I pointed out in the other thread where I went into more detail... the chances of anyone coming after the authors and creators of FF are slim to none. That is, unless that author/creator is turning a profit.

Cheers.


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## scottbuckley (Jan 13, 2016)

RiffWraith said:


> Not really true. CI is always on a case by case basis, but typically, 'fan fiction' is in fact plagiarism. It is not fair use, and is most of the time an unauthorized derivative work.
> 
> However, a I pointed out in the other thread where I went into more detail... the chances of anyone coming after the authors and creators of FF are slim to none. That is, unless that author/creator is turning a profit.
> 
> Cheers.



Fair enough. I guess (like you said) the general feeling I get is FF creators are rarely pursued.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 14, 2016)

Hi there,

Did you manages to upload the demo? 

Thx.


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## tarantulis (Jan 14, 2016)

It hit me as soon as I left the house this morning. *Slaps forehead*

Tonight for sure.


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## tarantulis (Jan 14, 2016)

ed buller said:


> why don't you go back to where he got his influences from and re-work a bit of Holst and Stravinsky...you'll learn loads and won't owe anyone any money !
> 
> e



Wow, lots of similarities here. Great suggestion!


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## MartinAlexander (Jan 14, 2016)

You can buy the original orchestral sheet music of a lot of John Williams scores from Hal Leonard - including Star Wars.


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## tarantulis (Jan 14, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Did you manages to upload the demo?
> 
> Thx.



See the link below. Also note that I did this in an afternoon and it reeks of first draft. I pretty much buried the thing in reverb.



After thinking this over, I've decided to do something original. Why the hell not. Covering the score will be boring and perhaps this will force me to come up with something halfway decent. I'll keep listening to Holst and Stravinski and study the Williams cues I want to emulate. I got my hands on Leonard's JW orchestral suite too so that should help. I'm feeling a bit more confident now, thanks everyone.


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## mc_deli (Jan 14, 2016)

Bit of an understatement to suggest that there are similarities between Holst (The Planets) and Williams (SW)! It was the temp on the original movie if I understand correctly, so no coincidence either

If I had to have a go at this I would break out Metropolis Ark for big themes. For Mars brass or the bigger themes in Jupiter I think it would deliver well.


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## skyy38 (Feb 1, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> This brings up an interesting point: What are the legalities of using ANYTHING from the original score?


.
Nothing really.
This is a STAR WARS Fan Film and as long as no money changes hands over it, you're OK.
BROKEN ALLEGIANCE uses the main titles at the beginning, but then has to awkwardly segue into original music done by an orchestra which is certainly NOT the LSO. They haven't gotten sued yet.


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## skyy38 (Feb 1, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> See the link below. Also note that I did this in an afternoon and it reeks of first draft. I pretty much buried the thing in reverb.
> 
> 
> 
> After thinking this over, I've decided to do something original. Why the hell not. Covering the score will be boring and perhaps this will force me to come up with something halfway decent. I'll keep listening to Holst and Stravinski and study the Williams cues I want to emulate. I got my hands on Leonard's JW orchestral suite too so that should help. I'm feeling a bit more confident now, thanks everyone.




It looks like the link got broken. Could you please repost again?

Thanks!


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## tarantulis (Feb 17, 2016)

skyy38 said:


> It looks like the link got broken. Could you please repost again?
> 
> Thanks!



Sorry, I ended up hating it so I took it down. It won't be used anyway since the director has agreed to let me do an original score. I'll definitely post some cues here in the coming weeks. I could use the feedback.


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## tarantulis (Feb 17, 2016)

UPDATE:

Trying to create something recognizably Star Wars that doesn't plagiarize any of the seven existing scores while still maintaining an original voice of my own is seriously tough. Luckily VI's Noam L is assisting with orchestration and arrangement, among other things, and I'm very grateful for the help. Trailer looks cool:



I've spotted the scenes, listened to all the JW scores, made notes for each tonally pertinent track, put together mock-ups of parts I want to emulate, and drawn up some sketches of my own—and yet I only have about thirty seconds of original material that's working for me right now. Hoping that changes soon. Then again, I seem to work best when the clock is ticking, so maybe things will start to speed up once a deadline/screenlock is in sight. That's obviously not ideal, though. Additional advice welcome.


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## ghostnote (Feb 17, 2016)

This might help :


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## synergy543 (Feb 17, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> Trying to create something recognizably Star Wars that doesn't plagiarize any of the seven existing scores while still maintaining an original voice of my own is seriously tough


True enough, however (with some serious orchstrational chops) it CAN be done.
https://soundcloud.com/gordyhaab


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## tarantulis (Feb 19, 2016)

synergy543 said:


> True enough, however (with some serious orchstrational chops) it CAN be done.
> https://soundcloud.com/gordyhaab



Wow, so definitely JW's source. Shockingly similar.



synergy543 said:


> True enough, however (with some serious orchstrational chops) it CAN be done.
> https://soundcloud.com/gordyhaab



This guy is insanely good. Studying every track now. Thanks for this


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## synergy543 (Feb 19, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> This guy is insanely good....


Yeah, that's the same reaction I had too.

Gordy has really elevated the bar. Its both scary and inspiring. However do not be discouraged. Since neither you nor I are likely to write like Gordy now, the best we can do is to focus on developing our own skills to the best of our ability. Its likely that Gordy had to work hard to get that good too. As older students, we are at a clear disadvantage though, so realize your limitations too and make haste. You have less time to waste than ever before.


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## tarantulis (Feb 20, 2016)

synergy543 said:


> As older students, we are at a clear disadvantage though, so realize your limitations too and make haste. You have less time to waste than ever before.



Oh rest assured, I'm well-aware and freaking out regularly. Have you not seen my other posts?


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## synergy543 (Feb 20, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> Oh rest assured, I'm well-aware and freaking out regularly. Have you not seen my other posts?


Sorry, didn't mean to alarm you. Stress and anxiety surely don't help (and they are also symptoms mostly us older folks get). I just meant to point out how little kids can be like carefree sponges and its possible for them to absorb a tremendous amount of information. So given the right guidance, this is partly how those little child prodigies develop. There are various techniques older students can use to facilitate the learning process. I think we still have much to discover though and its clearly a more difficult challenge for the older student. For me, life often tends to get in the way of the ideal process. You just have to maneuver around the obstacles and keep trying.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/12/how-to-learn-new-skills-twice-as-fast/?postshare=3031455461982645&tid=ss_fb-bottom


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## tarantulis (Feb 22, 2016)

synergy543 said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to alarm you. Stress and anxiety surely don't help (and they are also symptoms mostly us older folks get). I just meant to point out how little kids can be like carefree sponges and its possible for them to absorb a tremendous amount of information. So given the right guidance, this is partly how those little child prodigies develop. There are various techniques older students can use to facilitate the learning process. I think we still have much to discover though and its clearly a more difficult challenge for the older student. For me, life often tends to get in the way of the ideal process. You just have to maneuver around the obstacles and keep trying.
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/12/how-to-learn-new-skills-twice-as-fast/?postshare=3031455461982645&tid=ss_fb-bottom



No worries, my friend: The concern was already there, trust me. 

Good article.


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## gsilbers (Feb 22, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Trying to create something recognizably Star Wars that doesn't plagiarize any of the seven existing scores while still maintaining an original voice of my own is seriously tough. Luckily VI's Noam L is assisting with orchestration and arrangement, among other things, and I'm very grateful for the help. Trailer looks cool:
> 
> ...





That video looks like it has monetized views/Ads, therefore making money. Making a fan film using someone else's music for shits and giggles its fine, but If someone is making money out if it then that would be plagiarism and against copywrite law. The music was the same so you could get into trouble.


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## tarantulis (Feb 22, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> That video looks like it has monetized views/Ads, therefore making money. Making a fan film using someone else's music for shits and giggles its fine, but If someone is making money out if it then that would be plagiarism and against copywrite law. The music was the same so you could get into trouble.



In addition to the fact that it's a 30-second clip with less than a thousand views promoting a film whose only affiliation to me is the original music I'm writing for it, this is an unpaid gig, and its only relation to my bank account is the four-figures' worth of expenses I've sustained trying to make it sound better.

EDIT: Hope that didn't come off snarky. This is probably good info for the director but it's not my place to tell him.


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## almound (Feb 22, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> After thinking this over, I've decided to do something original. Why the hell not. ... I'll keep listening to Holst and Stravinski ...


Here's a laugh ... speaking of Stravinsky and "borrowing" from a composer ... listen to Musorgsky's "Sorochinsky Fair." 

Hear anything that sounds familiar? Stravinsky got most of the material that he worked into his 3 famous early ballets from this little-known musical theatre piece. As far as I know he never mentioned Musorgsky in that connection.


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## skyy38 (Feb 29, 2016)

So, what's the latest Dave? How are you doing with this project?


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## tarantulis (Mar 1, 2016)

skyy38 said:


> So, what's the latest Dave? How are you doing with this project?



Hard to say.

I’m composing about 40 hours a week, trying to come up with themes and ideas, and yet I only have about 2 minutes of material that I think actually works. Spending several hours a day listening to the soundtracks, trying to completely immerse myself in the world, and am in the process of transcribing all the available score sheets to get a better idea of what’s going on. I’m also meeting with a composer every weekend who’s critiquing my work and helping me develop some of the harmonic and structural stuff.

So yeah, progress has been slow and a bit frustrating. But I’m doing my best.


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## skyy38 (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't know whether this will help or not but here's what I did once as an exercise:


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## re-peat (Mar 2, 2016)

almound said:


> Here's a laugh ... (...) Stravinsky got most of the material that he worked into his 3 famous early ballets from this little-known musical theatre piece. As far as I know he never mentioned Mussorgsky in that connection.


*Almound,*

So you’re saying you can trace MOST of “Firebird”, “Petrushka” and “The Sacre” back to this work of Mussorgsky? That is quite something, isn’t it? But … care to provide a few examples that might lend some weight to that inane accusation of yours? Because all I spotted, apart from the obvious overal Russian-ness of the music, were a few melodic bits which are clearly derived from the same folk material that Stravinsky also relied on for certain motifs in “The Sacre”. (Which is, by the way, a well-established and fully documented fact that Stravinsky never tried to hide.)

I’d love to hear for instance the bits which, according to your musical research, Stravinsky borrowed to compose *most* of “Petrushka” with. (Since you consider this such a laugh: should you be unable to provide enough telling examples, the only one who’s going to be looking perfectly ridiculous here, will be you of course.)

Anyway, here’s a few Stravinsky fragments. All you have to do, is give me the timings of that YouTube-clip where the corresponding source material by Mussorgsky, can be heard. That’s easy, right?

(1) http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/SB_Tracks/Firebird_DanceOfTheFirebird.mp3 (Firebird (Dance Of The Firebird))
(2) http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/SB_Tracks/Petrushka_The%20ShroveTideFair.mp3 (Petrushka (Shrove-tide Fair))
(3) http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/SB_Tracks/Petrushka_PetrushkasRoom1.mp3 (Petrushka (Petruska's Room 1))
(4) http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/SB_Tracks/Petrushka_PetrushkasRoom2.mp3 (Petrushka (Petruska's Room 2))
(5) http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/SB_Tracks/Petrushka_RussianDance.mp3 (Petrushka (Russian Dance))
(6) http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/SB_Tracks/Petrushka_PeasantWithBear.mp3 (Petrushka (Peasant With Bear))
(7) http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/SB_Tracks/14%20The%20Rite%20of%20Spring_Part%20Two_%20The%20Sacrifice_%20Sacrificial%20Dance%20(The%20Chosen%20One).mp3 (Le Sacre Du Printemps (The Chosen One))


*Tarantulis,*

I am really curious as to why you ‘liked’ Almound’s post. Is that because of a spasm in your index finger that makes you click almost every ‘Like’-button which you see, or did you actually listen to the Mussorgsky piece and agreed with Almound’s findings?

_


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 2, 2016)

And Pulcinella. It's Pergolisi tunes, and it's a masterpiece. Igor made no bones about using those tunes. He said something like, "The only thing I'm interested in of Pergolisi's is Pulcinella."


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## quidam (Mar 2, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Igor made no bones about using those tunes.


Well, it was Diaghilev in the first place who wanted a ballet based on Pergolesi's music and a commedia dell'arte libretto.


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## re-peat (Mar 2, 2016)

"Pulcinella" was the subject of these two posts *(1) *and *(2)*, both triggered by an accusation of plagiarism, just as idiotic and ignorant as the one that made me write the post above.

_


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2016)

Ah, sorry, I missed the beginning.

I have an old recording - mono - of Stravinsky conducting L'Histoire on one side and Pulcinella on the other. It's awesome.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2016)

Or maybe I'm confusing that recording. Well, I do have him conducting both, and they're both awesome.


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## tarantulis (Mar 7, 2016)

Any additional suggestions? More transcribing? More mockups? One month remains and I'm beginning to worry.

10 minutes of music needed, I have roughly 2 that sound anything remotely like Star Wars. I'm at the point now where I'm wondering if I should start repurposing stuff from the Planets or Rite of Spring, though I hate the idea. I really underestimated the difficulty of this undertaking—I come from the world of electronica and 4/4 loops. Really wish this project had come 2-3 years from now when I'd have some more training.


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## Smikes77 (Mar 21, 2016)

Take Mike Verta`s class on JW perhaps?


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## tarantulis (Mar 22, 2016)

I went through both of them.


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