# Russia - Why you so evil?



## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2014)

Obviously our west minded media makes it seem like russia is evil and just went on war. yet, im kinda not so sure whats happening there. seems half of ukraine is full russia speakers, but do they like russias help? what interest does russua hold that they worry?. is it just trying to get a russia backed man on power again? what for? 
how would the west have reacted if the tables were oposite? (west minded president is overthrwon by russia minded protesters)
whats the main reason all of these is happening? 
anyone from there or close who can shed some more and different insight than rueters? 

seems there is still this cold war mentality around the world sometimes. venezuela and other s.american countries want this socialism of back in the day. russia, even though not socialist anymore, still seems its against the west. china says its comunist but its the biggest capitalist country after the US. 
is the situation in chimera this same issue or is it something else?


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## Ron Snijders (Mar 2, 2014)

Apparently there are quite a lot of ethnic Russians in Crimea who aren't too fond of the new regime in Ukraine. That appears to be the main reason of the Russian involvement.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 2, 2014)

Having just vaguely read the BBC's handy cut out and keep guide to background to the crisis - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26367786 - this one is happily a piece of cake to resolve.

Crimea is an autonomous region of Ukraine, under international treaty signed off by everyone. However, many there feel more historical allegiance to Russia. Solution - everyone back the **** off, hold a referendum in Crimea to ask the people once and for all who they want to be affiliated with, and then stand by that result and everyone shut up and go away.

If only I were a high ranking diplomat.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 2, 2014)

Ron Snijders @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Apparently there are quite a lot of ethnic Russians in Crimea who aren't too fond of the new regime in Ukraine. That appears to be the main reason of the Russian involvement.



There are a lot of people not too fond of the Obama administration. That doesn't mean Canada can annex the US.


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## aaronnt1 (Mar 2, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun 02 Mar said:


> Solution - everyone back the **** off, hold a referendum in Crimea to ask the people once and for all who they want to be affiliated with, and then stand by that result and everyone shut up and go away.
> 
> If only I were a high ranking diplomat.



What, let the people decide? When there is much money to be made, deals to be struck and assets to snap on the cheap? Highly unlikely. Big multinationals thrive on these types of crises.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 2, 2014)

gsilbers @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Obviously our west minded media makes it seem like russia is evil and just went on war. yet, im kinda not so sure whats happening there. seems half of ukraine is full russia speakers, but do they like russias help? what interest does russua hold that they worry?....



The media in the USA has been reporting for some time that Ukraine is divided - half of the country wants to stay with Russia and be a satellite, while the other half wants Russia out of the picture completely, while they become more "westernized" and part of the EU. Who the hell knows what the truth really is? I dont even think Russia really knows...


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## RiffWraith (Mar 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> There are a lot of people not too fond of the Obama administration. That doesn't mean Canada can annex the US.



I am still waiting for the US to annex Canada.


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## AC986 (Mar 2, 2014)

Oh the Cold War never ended. 

The question I would ask is what would say the USA do if they suddenly found people throwing Molotov cocktails into government buildings. We know what the UK would do. Nothing. As was proved two and a half years ago when parts of London got torched and ransacked.

I take Russia's view on this and understand where they are coming from.


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2014)

Putin has stated many times that he wishes to piece Russia (the old Soviet Union) back together again. From a western perspective it would be like the US collapsed and Texas, Alaska and the southern states formed each on their own, separate countries.

So I try to frame it like that. Just think what would happen in the US if states broke off and formed their own separate countries. We would head into civil war for sure. We have. And we would again.

Not saying that I agree with Putin. I think he's an ass. But for as rough as he is, I've never once considered that his motivations are evil. He's actually pretty straight forward in his thinking and appears from the outside to be even more honest than our own leaders. He just plays by a different set of rules. He's a dictator with nobody else to really answer too, because his competition either end up in jail or dead. 

For western constitutional thinking it's evil. But from a Russian perspective, that's just the way it is. It's a rough place that's always been held together by the most brutal means.


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## Ryan (Mar 2, 2014)

I was wondering when a topic like this would appearer... Sometimes I wonder how much C&C Generals or Red Alert95 our leaders around the globe have played/are still playing.... :roll:


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## Ron Snijders (Mar 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun 02 Mar said:


> Ron Snijders @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently there are quite a lot of ethnic Russians in Crimea who aren't too fond of the new regime in Ukraine. That appears to be the main reason of the Russian involvement.
> ...


Oh, I never made any judgement on the situation in my post, nor was it implied. Just giving a little background. I prefer not to get involved in political or religious discussions at all.


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## Ryan (Mar 2, 2014)

> Oh, I never made any judgement on the situation in my post, nor was it implied. Just giving a little background. I prefer not to get involved in political or religious discussions at all.









I say lets keep this topic out from this forum.. It will (believe me) escalate...


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## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Putin has stated many times that he wishes to piece Russia (the old Soviet Union) back together again. From a western perspective it would be like the US collapsed and Texas, Alaska and the southern states formed each on their own, separate countries.
> 
> So I try to frame it like that. Just think what would happen in the US if states broke off and formed their own separate countries. We would head into civil war for sure. We have. And we would again.
> 
> ...



i do follow the part about putin pieacing together old countries but i think its more like the euro zone of free trade agreements. which makes sense for better trading as the west really is afraid of russia. and i guess better advantage in commerce. 

i do not agree on the analogy about the US. i think its not so cut and dry as it is here.


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## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Oh the Cold War never ended.
> 
> The question I would ask is what would say the USA do if they suddenly found people throwing Molotov cocktails into government buildings. We know what the UK would do. Nothing. As was proved two and a half years ago when parts of London got torched and ransacked.
> 
> I take Russia's view on this and understand where they are coming from.



not sure your point. 

why say molotov to us buildings? its completly diferent culture and things are completly different in many ways. theres plenty of folks with enough firepower in the US to not need molotovs for one. also, you jump to saying uk 2 years ago, which i belive there was no similar reason back then. so not sure how it relates to the current topic.
it be interesting to learn more about other point of views but this post is a bit short on info.


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## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2014)

Ryan @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> > Oh, I never made any judgement on the situation in my post, nor was it implied. Just giving a little background. I prefer not to get involved in political or religious discussions at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



there are folks from all over the world on this forum. its a great way to learn how other think about this situatuation and not rely soley on the news which usefull, yet all owned by 6 corporations.


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## germancomponist (Mar 2, 2014)

Google for "Putin interviews" or search it on youtube. You will be astonished! 

Putin is no devil..., not more than many other politicians around the world.(remember Bush and his war...?) 

Here in Germany, for months the mainstream media are bashing Putin like never before. All this has system and seems to be planned by a long hand. 

The real truth we will never know! (But I am sure it has a lot to do with "money"!)

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... xO1CGd3s1I


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## AC986 (Mar 2, 2014)

Yes it's all about money. You turn your high street into Dante's Inferno in London and nobody bats an eyelid. Do it in Kiev for long enough and be prepared to back it up. Watch out because Russia has a strong leader. 
Western European leadership is a fucking joke because of the EU. Everyone thinks they can rely on the wealthy members to bail them out. I dare say Ukranians are waiting to get into the EU so Germany can bail them out. Think again.


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## germancomponist (Mar 2, 2014)

I am sorry to say this, but also Germany is a warmonger. 

The modern weapons are money / bailouts, as they call it! We are completely being lied to and deceived!

For example: The European Commission is occupied with people that no one has chosen. Look at these people, who they are in truth!

Any questions?


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## Goran (Mar 2, 2014)

No friend of Putin here, but also no friend of USA/EU warmongers and overall scumbags trying (as usual) to saddle a wave of legitimate protest against a corrupt government they happen to dislike for the purpose of installing just as corrupt (or worse) government they would like (because it would be more amenable to their interests). Kerry/Obama saying the territorial integrity of Ukraine has to be respected? What pathetic hypocrites. Don't remember much of USA/EU respecting the territorial integrity of former Yugoslavia... or Serbia... or Mexico... or Columbia... or Cuba... And something tells me that the holy principle of "respecting territorial integrity" would go down the drain immediately if this weren't Ukraine, but Russia (or China).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm the last person to be in favor of our (America's) empire of military bases and sometimes excessive interventions.

But former Yugoslavia? That was NATO, and it was stopping mass killings and stabilizing the region - which was in everyone's interest. We haven't annexed Mexico, Columbia, or Cuba either.

Russia shouldn't be invading Crimea, and the precedent this sets for nuclear nonproliferation agreements is not good. But the analogies I'm reading in this thread seem inapt. There's a lot at stake here for both Russia and the West. And by the way for the Ukranian people.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2014)

Ummm. Putin, a good dude? A "strong leader"? Ok. I guess if you're fond of emperors and you're not gay, Putin's your guy.

I've found myself longing for the good ol' Cold War these days. The former U.S.S.R is indeed a fractious and dangerous place, but leave us not develop illusions about Mr. Putin. He's a rapacious plunderer who brooks no challenges to his dominance, as one former billionaire oil oligarch found out when he ended up in a gulag after mounting opposition to Putin's re-election.


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## Goran (Mar 2, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> I'm the last person to be in favor of our (America's) empire of military bases and sometimes excessive interventions.



Fair enough.



Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> But former Yugoslavia? That was NATO, and it was stopping mass killings and stabilizing the region - which was in everyone's interest.



NATO doesn't move a finger without the action being solicited by the USA, which is it's most powerful and important policy maker. And the interventions had nothing to do with stopping mass killings (there is a long list of mass killings in the world which USA and NATO happily ignored) and "stabilizing" the region (especially not in the case of Kosovo, where (as opposed to Bosnia) the mass killings were a wholesale war propaganda fabricaton, a fact which since then has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt). Therefore, the bombing of Yugoslavia was a clear-cut case of a criminal military aggression without any base whatsoever in international or any other law (btw, just as Afghanistan and Iraq wars were). 



Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> We haven't annexed Mexico, Columbia, or Cuba either.



Can't help but notice some serious deficiencies in your knowledge of American history. Mexican-American war 1846-48 ring any bells? It ended in the annexation of what were large parts of Mexico before that war (including the whole of Arizona, New Mexico and California). 

USA instigated a separationist movement in northern Columbia which resulted in the secession of what is today Panama, which was de facto run as a U.S.-colony for the purposes of building the Panama canal on U.S. conditions.

Guantanamo base still exists on Cuba, and is a blatant violation of Cuban territorial sovereignity (among many other things it is a violation of...)

Therefore, all three cases clearly do fall in the category of complete and utter disrespect for the principle of "respecting the territorial integrity" of other countries.




Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Russia shouldn't be invading Crimea, and the precedent this sets for nuclear nonproliferation agreements is not good.



Agree with the first part, disagree with the second - nuclear nonproliferation agreements were consistently sabotaged by many other countries long before this situation evolved in the Ukraine.


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## bbunker (Mar 2, 2014)

Goran,

Interesting comments. Do you then harbor resentment towards "Germany" for its lack of respect for the "territorial integrity" of Hanover, or Nassau, or Hamburg, or...well, the list goes on. Because I'm sure those Austrian allies fighting against Prussia in the Austro-Prussian war would have had some serious complaints about being annexed in entirety. And that happened a good two decades after the Mexican-American war.

Or, does a name-change suffice to wipe the slate clean? "Nope, no Prussia here. We're the German Empire now. Move along."

So, will you go on to call Merkel a pathetic hypocrite in the same way?

Who then is not a hypocrite, and who then does "care about territorial integrity?"


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## Goran (Mar 2, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> He's a rapacious plunderer who brooks no challenges to his dominance.



Even if this were true [of Putin] the very same could be said with just as much, or, in a particularly infamous recent case, with considerably more justification, for a substantial number of U.S. presidents.


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## bbunker (Mar 2, 2014)

Goran @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > He's a rapacious plunderer who brooks no challenges to his dominance.
> ...



Or perhaps even more of certain Bundeskanzlers?


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## Goran (Mar 2, 2014)

bbunker @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Goran,
> 
> Interesting comments. Do you then harbor resentment towards "Germany" for its lack of respect for the "territorial integrity" of Hanover, or Nassau, or Hamburg, or...well, the list goes on. Because I'm sure those Austrian allies fighting against Prussia in the Austro-Prussian war would have had some serious complaints about being annexed in entirety. And that happened a good two decades after the Mexican-American war.
> 
> ...



I don't harbor any resentments against "Germany" just as I don't harbor any resentments against "USA" - in the sense of a nation and its people independent of its current or historical political and social system or its government's policies. 

You'll also find no fan of Prussia in me, quite on the contrary, I completely adhere to today's "radical's" :lol: slogan _Preussen bleibt scheiße _ - Prussia remains shit. If the circumstances were analogous (and they probably were), what applies to American annexations applies to the Prussian ones just as well. If a given situation is qualitatively identical or analogous, the same criteria either applies to everybody or it applies to none.

And, yes, as far as hypocrites in today's international politics go, Merkel is right up there with the very, very worst.


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## Goran (Mar 2, 2014)

bbunker @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Goran @ Mon Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> ...



Bundeskanzlers not really, these were all too small fishes in comparison with either Putin or U.S. presidents, but there is a Reichskanzler or two which somehow does come to mind in this respect... :twisted:


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 2, 2014)

Nikita was Nina's great grandfather, and she offers an interesting angle.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...-ukraine-s-disarray-to-reclaim-lost-territory




> Nina L. Khrushcheva is a professor in the Graduate Program of International Affairs at the New School in New York, and a senior fellow at the World Policy Institute, where she directs the Russia Project. She previously taught at Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs, and is the author of Imagining Nabokov: Russia Between Art and Politics and The Lost Khrushchev: A Journey into the Gulag of the Russian Mind.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 2, 2014)

_NATO doesn't move a finger without the action being solicited by the USA, which is it's most powerful and important policy maker. And the interventions had nothing to do with stopping mass killings (there is a long list of mass killings in the world which USA and NATO happily ignored) and "stabilizing" the region (especially not in the case of Kosovo, where (as opposed to Bosnia) the mass killings were a wholesale war propaganda fabricaton, a fact which since then has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt). Therefore, the bombing of Yugoslavia was a clear-cut case of a criminal military aggression without any base whatsoever in international or any other law (btw, just as Afghanistan and Iraq wars were). _

Oy. The first part of the first sentence is complete false information, and to say the bombing of Yugoslavia was criminal military aggression with no basis is absolutely absurd. I agree that there is a long list of mass killings in the world which the USA and NATO have ignored - tho I think it's obvious that you harbor resentment towards both parties due to your inclusion of the word _happily_. Furthermore... Iraq is it's own unique situation, which I am not exactly proud of, but to say that the US war in Afghanistan was also criminal military aggression with no basis is probably the most uninformed and inept comment I have read in God-only-knows-how-long. Talk about serious deficiencies in knowledge of recent world history... sheesh.


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## Goran (Mar 2, 2014)

> RiffWraith @ Mon Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > _NATO doesn't move a finger without the action being solicited by the USA, which is it's most powerful and important policy maker. And the interventions had nothing to do with stopping mass killings (there is a long list of mass killings in the world which USA and NATO happily ignored) and "stabilizing" the region (especially not in the case of Kosovo, where (as opposed to Bosnia) the mass killings were a wholesale war propaganda fabricaton, a fact which since then has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt). Therefore, the bombing of Yugoslavia was a clear-cut case of a criminal military aggression without any base whatsoever in international or any other law (btw, just as Afghanistan and Iraq wars were). _
> ...



No it isn't. And it is fairly obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. 



RiffWraith @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> and to say the bombing of Yugoslavial was criminal military aggression with no basis is absolutely absurd.



Wrong again. And again, it's obvious that you don't know much about the subject.



RiffWraith @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Iraq is it's own unique situation, which I am not exactly proud of



Very good - because there is absolutely nothing there to be proud of. But also nothing to be personally ashamed of (unless one identifies himself/herself or his/hers country in general with his/hers government's policies).



RiffWraith @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> but to say that the US war in Afghanistan was also criminal military aggression with no basis is probably the most uninformed and inept comment I have read in God-only-knows-how-long.



And wrong again. It is your comments which are uninformed and inept (if we leave the standard mainstream war propaganda "information" aside).


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 2, 2014)

The one thing I found evident in all the reporting to date is bias and disinformation quality. 

I can only laugh at Kerry's moralizing attitude making remarks about 19th century politics, it doesn't suit so well a country that had invaded Iraq for reasons of middle east dominance and securing oil contracts.

As for the EU, Catherine Ashton, yeah well, this over promoted Baroness is a diplomatic super light weight and was not taken serious by no one. At first she was considered a failure, not much later nothing more but a sad joke.

Merkel? She refused sanctions against Yanukovitch, and a day later Steinmeier spoke of sanctions, but then they shook hands with the man who clearly was sent dismissal without notice by his own people. 

You couldn't make it up.... :lol:


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 2, 2014)

http://mondediplo.com/2014/03/02ukraine


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2014)

Goran @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > He's a rapacious plunderer who brooks no challenges to his dominance.
> ...



First of all, one thing does not refute the other, i.e., you may certainly make any number of arguments about U.S. Presidents- none of them would refute what I said.

Second, name me a recent President of the U.S. who became a billionaire in the course of his term in office. That is the part I as referring to with "rapacious plunderer". Ferdinand Marcos, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, you know, Emperors who siphon money out of their country by means of bribery and extortion.


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## Goran (Mar 3, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Goran @ Mon Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> ...



Very true, but also beside the point. I wasn't trying to refute what you wrote about Putin (for that I know too little about Putin and I know from bitter experience that you better don't rely too much on the "information" and "knowledge" served by the mainstream media outlets and official propaganda peddlers (you as a U.S. citizen might have collected some similar experiences in the past few decades)), but to point out that even if that were true, it still is no argument for painting Putin as a kind of an exceptional, particularly malignant villain whose actions would demand exceptional measures (a position which seems to me to be the general tone in much of today's Western coverage of the situation in the Ukraine). If your particular post didn't have the intention of supporting this position, I stand corrected.



NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Second, name me a recent President of the U.S. who became a billionaire in the course of his term in office. That is the part I as referring to with "rapacious plunderer". Ferdinand Marcos, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, you know, Emperors who siphon money out of their country by means of bribery and extortion.



Again, don't know if Putin became any sort of a "billionaire" in the course of his term (the claim smells (at least partially) of a standard variety propaganda concoction to me, but I have too little solid knowledge on this particular subject to be able to dismiss the claim outright). I thought of something else - "rapacious plunderer who brooks no challenges to his dominance" in the foreign policy and imperial dominance department. And I stand to what I said - in this sense, there is a substantial number of U.S. presidents more then worthy of the very same description (or worse).

Btw, don't know much about Amin, but Marcos and Hussein are good cases in point for two "Emperors" who prospered for a long, long time under the proverbialy benevolent tutelage of U.S. ruling class and its political/military establishment over the worst sorts of despots and tyrants - as long as they served its interests.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 3, 2014)

We are discussing different matters, apparently. Perhaps you should start a thread entitled " rapacious, plundering U.S. Presidents and regimes". There we might find some common ground. Or not. 

Logic exercise- 

Statement- "Putin is a rapacious plunderer."
Argument-"" well, historically the U.S. is full of rapacious plunderers."

Does your argument obviate the statement? Obviously not. You simply brought in other arguable information that is neither here nor there.

You want to make some sort of statement that the pot is calling the kettle black- I fail to see what the pot has to do with the kettle. Either my statement is true, false or perhaps subjective. Now you may have the last word.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 3, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Logic exercise-
> 
> Statement- "Putin is a rapacious plunderer."
> Argument-"" well, historically the U.S. is full of rapacious plunderers."
> ...



...or I could barge in, unwelcome...

This isn't really an esoteric argument. There demonstrably is a relevance between the pot and the kettle. The US regieme (the pot) is making a lot of noise right now threatening Russia (the kettle) sanctions and who knows what. The Kettle's primary defence has been that The Pot acts in the same way when their own interests are threatened. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a counter-argument. So while yes Larry, you could just take one statement in isolation, it does seem a rather naive view of how wars happen.

Anyone care to comment on what is wrong with the principle of pushing for a referendum in Crimea and letting the people decide their own fate?


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## Goran (Mar 3, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> We are discussing different matters, apparently. Perhaps you should start a thread entitled " rapacious, plundering U.S. Presidents and regimes". There we might find some common ground. Or not.



Would enjoy the discussion, but I'm afraid I'll have to go over to tend to other matters (I already broke my time limit for forum discussion with this thread alone :wink: 



NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Logic exercise-
> 
> Statement- "Putin is a rapacious plunderer."
> Argument-"" well, historically the U.S. is full of rapacious plunderers."
> ...



Correct, it doesn't. But that also wasn't its purpose, as I stated in my last post.



NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> You want to make some sort of statement that the pot is calling the kettle black- I fail to see what the pot has to do with the kettle. Either my statement is true, false or perhaps subjective. Now you may have the last word.



Exactly, that was the statement - that the pot is calling the kettle black (and that in the most repellingly disingenuous and hypocritical fashion). What the pot has to do with the kettle I tried to explain in the last part of my last post (the general tone of both the Western media coverage and Western politicians on Ukraine and Putin).


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## Goran (Mar 3, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> This isn't really an esoteric argument. There demonstrably is a relevance between the pot and the kettle. The US regieme (the pot) is making a lot of noise right now threatening Russia (the kettle) sanctions and who knows what. The Kettle's primary defence has been that The Pot acts in the same way when their own interests are threatened.



To the point. And the kettle has every right to point this somewhat unpleasant fact out, completely independent of one's agreeing or disagreeing with its politics (f.e. I myself happen to disagree with its politics). 



Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a counter-argument.



Correct, in this case that would seem to be so because there is none :mrgreen: 



Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Anyone care to comment on what is wrong with the principle of pushing for a referendum in Crimea and letting the people decide their own fate?



_In principle_ nothing. Just as there would _in principle_ be nothing wrong with the people deciding their own fate in Wales... or Scotland... or Alaska... or Florida... or Bavaria... feel free to continue _ad libitum_...


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## NYC Composer (Mar 3, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Logic exercise-
> ...



Guy, i am many things, but naive isnt one of them. I don't need to win in a discussion, I just need it to be logically laid out so that what is said is what is responded to. I responded to an earlier statement that suggested that Putin is some sort of generic strong man world leader. I disagree with that and only that, him being painted positively. (I notice no one had a thing to say about the gay rights issue, but whatever.) Anyway, had the same things been said about the Bush- Cheney regime, I would have objected to that as well. I did not respond to the issue of who was making war or who was in the right politically or culturally, so I fail to see what moral equivalence across nations has to do with MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT, and that alone.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 3, 2014)

Fair dos Larry - but you'll surely see its inevitable when discussing this issue that the charge "he's a bad dude" (a perfectly fair one imo) will be met with talk of pots and kettles.

Gay rights - of course. For my side, still waiting for any responses to my proposed idea of, ya know, giving Crimea citizens a democratic voice in this.


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## AC986 (Mar 3, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> I can only laugh at Kerry's moralizing attitude making remarks about 19th century politics, it doesn't suit so well a country that had invaded Iraq for reasons of middle east dominance and securing oil contracts.



Yes I saw Kerry's response on TV and just laughed out loud on several occasions. The man is a buffoon.




G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> As for the EU, Catherine Ashton, yeah well, this over promoted Baroness is a diplomatic super light weight and was not taken serious by no one. At first she was considered a failure, not much later nothing more but a sad joke.



Over promoted is an understatement of the first order. She is a fucking cow who was put there by Gordon Brown with absolutely no experience or qualifications whatsoever. She is hated. Why couldn't Cameron sack her immediately? Probably because he's a buffoon too and the EU would not allow it. The EU is just an overblown quango. :lol: 

And btw Baroness's are two a penny since Tony Blair.




G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Merkel? She refused sanctions against Yanukovitch, and a day later Steinmeier spoke of sanctions, but then they shook hands with the man who clearly was sent dismissal without notice by his own people.
> 
> You couldn't make it up.... :lol:



You couldn't make it up! How can anyone be trusted who moved from West Germany to live in East Germany?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 3, 2014)

This is really for the Russian TV audience, and the lesson hoped to be taught is: don't demonstrate/riot against your political/economical system or you will face dire economic consequences, imprisonment, societal upheavals, far-right militias, etc. "Just look at what's happening to our poor neighbour!"


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## handz (Mar 3, 2014)

Just for the Record - USA invade any country anytime for absolutely no reason and nobody making big deal from it.

Crimea is Autonomous republic with majority of Russian citizens and it belongs to Ukraiene for "only" 60 years. And since 1991 they wanted to separate and return back to Russia. 

Now after those "peacefull" demonstrations where maybe over half of them were Bandera adoring nationalist and other extremists of course people who tend to be with russia may feel very stressed. Russia on the other hand is not happy that EU and maybe even USA would enlarge their influence to their borders as well. 

I dont like Putin and I dont like modern Russia, they occupied my country too not so far ago! 
But as well I do not agree what those demonstrants did, it was aggresive, armed conflict against regulary elected president, who was not dictator, just being prorussian - as is maybe half of Ukraine.


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## AC986 (Mar 3, 2014)

handz @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> I dont like Putin and I dont like modern Russia, they occupied my country too not so far ago!
> But as well I do not agree what those demonstrants did, it was aggresive, armed conflict against regulary elected president, who was not dictator, just being prorussian - as is maybe half of Ukraine.




Yes I remember it very well. 1967 I think it was.

Yes, let's not forget that Kerry and Cameron were about to bomb Syria not so long ago for absolutely nothing. Of course, depending on whether you're a poor bleeding ass liberal. 

Like I said earlier, anyone in the USA throwing molotov cocktails into government offices would be shot.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 3, 2014)

Handz, Yanukovitch and his bandits made off with more than 35 billion. He is more than, "just being pro-Russia", he is a very big criminal. He also allowed between 75-85 of his own people to be shot like skeet discs at a shoot. I HATE snipers. :evil:


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## handz (Mar 3, 2014)

Ned...how do you know? From media - which are of course anti Russian. Every politic in every country is half criminal making money for himself, in my country it is the same, and nobody starting armed agressive riots in the streets - even after last elections - Im in the mood I would do (but of course Im not crazy...). 
There is always way to depose president by law if he is proven of doing such things and you cen do demonstrations in other way than this. General strikes etc for start - but this is the problem, those demonstrants dont have support of majority! 

He alowed to shoot on armed dangerous mob destroying the city. In USA they will shot them all in a minute. How would you feel if in Montreal some people where big percentage are extremists will start to throw molotov coctails on buildings and practicly started street war because they dont like current goverment and president? I would feel pretty scared. They attacked first, they attacked goverment buildings and policemans just standing there protecting those buildings. What they have to do? Let themselves killed? If special police unit tell you - not go any further and you still go - with shields and armed - this is not OK - those were not demonstrants those were members of nacionalist army units in the front lines. If we allow this is OK, than we are all screwed. Always elected party is barely elected by only 30-50% of population, so there always is lot of people not agreeing with the current goverment. 

In Ukraine it is even more complicated thanx to the facts like it was part of Russia before and lot of people speaks russian and like to be with Russia than Europe.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 3, 2014)

Sorry, but I'll have to completely disagree with you about the means to take care of some extremists at rallies/riots, etc. With 35 billion, I'm sure the former govt bandits could have bought/rented some water cannons, sound cannons, etc - anything but guns with bullets shot by snipers. Also, if you have the kind of talent that was deployed by the brutes, why not aim for legs, arms, instead of perfect shots to the head?


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 3, 2014)

If you want to know who a man is, look at who he was. Putin was a KGB thug. He still is, tactically.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 3, 2014)

Goran - just read your response to my post. I am not going to get into an argument here, but what I said is correct. You can claim, as you did, that is is not, but that only shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Please go and do some research.

Cheers.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 3, 2014)

Goran @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone care to comment on what is wrong with the principle of pushing for a referendum in Crimea and letting the people decide their own fate?
> ...



Indeed. Quite a good idea, isn't it?

Scotland referendum - 18 September 2014.


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## Goran (Mar 3, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Goran - just read your response to my post. I am not going to get into an argument here, but what I said is correct. You can claim, as you did, that is is not, but that only shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Please go and do some research.
> 
> Cheers.



I actually did extensive reading on the subjects mentioned above (and by that, as I said, I don't mean "information" or "knowledge" concocted by official propaganda peddlers). You would be surprised how your perspective changes when you start watching less FoxNews, CNN and/or even reading New York Times/Washington Post and start reading more Michel Chossudovsky, Edward S. Herman, John Pilger or Noam Chomsky. And yes, I still claim it is you who doesn't know what he is talking about, and that on all three issues mentioned - NATO, Yugoslavia, and the Afghanistan war.

A good place to start for some serious and well-informed writing on the second issue:

http://www.zcommunications.org/the-politics-of-the-srebrenica-massacre-by-edward-herman.html


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 3, 2014)

As for Noam Chomsky, what we certainly can obvserve right this moment in the media is "manufacturing consent"!


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## robh (Mar 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Ron Snijders @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently there are quite a lot of ethnic Russians in Crimea who aren't too fond of the new regime in Ukraine. That appears to be the main reason of the Russian involvement.
> ...


Why would we _want_ to? :twisted: 

Rob


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2014)

Occasionally I agree with RiffWraith, and this is one of those times.



> Can't help but notice some serious deficiencies in your knowledge of American history.



Can't help but notice some serious deficiencies in your knowledge of how to discuss issues. 

How far do you want to go back in history? Are the French hypocritical to criticize the Russians because of Napoleon?

And are you therefore arguing that Russia is performing a mitzvah?


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## snowleopard (Mar 3, 2014)

I think this just about sums it up:


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## AC986 (Mar 3, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Occasionally I agree with RiffWraith, and this is one of those times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not history, That's 5 minutes ago. Come and walk with me through the grounds of Wells and Glastonbury and you'll get the idea. :lol: o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2014)

I've lived in England and traveled in Europe, so I do get the idea.

And when we visited Dachau, my thought was that it wasn't long enough ago.

But. But. Europe has come a very long way since then.


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## AC986 (Mar 3, 2014)

I just got off the phone with a lady from Poland coincidentally. Yes Europe had moved on and so has the dotted line that surrounds it. 

A lot of this stuff is very dependent on how you are and how your memory is holding up.


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## chimuelo (Mar 3, 2014)

Strike up another win for Putin. 
He watched our redistributors lie to keep their jobs in the last election as our Ambassador and minaiture security team were annihilated.

Then noticed a total lack of response to go after the people responsible, so this comes as no surprise.

Putin knows it's an election year again, and nothing is more important to redistributors than to keep thier seats. 

Appears he judged correctly.

In 2016 he will take back more territory as he is polling really well.
People will forget about his tryannical nature as he addresses their national pride.

I expect him to release the girls from Pussy Riot next. That's what I'd do, then bypass the NYTimes and go straight to Fox News with a translator.
Hell, I can see him trying to address income inequality and being prasied by wealth redistributors.....nothing would surprise me anymore.
He might even get the Nobel Peace Prize just to stop invading.


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## AC986 (Mar 3, 2014)

:lol: :lol: 


I've finally cracked.


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## Goran (Mar 3, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> How far do you want to go back in history? Are the French hypocritical to criticize the Russians because of Napoleon?



Yes, if the French politicians who would criticize Putin for the Crimea would at the same time uphold Napoleon's conquest of Russia,_ and that with the very same argument Putin would use to justify Russian intervention on Crimea (the argument of one own's country national interests)_, then that would make them hypocrites, as they would apply one set of criteria on one (their own) side and an another set of criteria on the other side _for using the same argument and/or acting in the same or similar fashion_ - which makes the definition of a hypocrite. 

In other words, it is perfectly legitimate to go as far back in history _as the side accusing somebody of something upholds the very same or similar historical actions of its own, and that with the very same arguments used by the side it is criticizing._ And, to the best of my knowledge, the U.S. political establishment upholds the Mexican-American war as a legitimate (and crucial) war in which the U.S. (almost) completed its territorial expansion into its present form (feel free to correct me if this is not the case, that is, if the official view of the Mexican-American view is that of an aggressive war against a neighbor sovereign state resulting in an illegitimate annexation of its territories). 

That is, as long as the U.S. political establishment continues to uphold this view of the Mexican-American war (or any similar action of its own or of an another country), criticizing any other country of annexing an another country's territories through means of war (and justifying this using arguments they themselves uphold when it suites them) makes them exactly what I said it makes them - hypocrites.



Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> And are you therefore arguing that Russia is performing a mitzvah?



:roll: No, I already said (and repeatedly so) that I disagree with Russian policy in the current Ukraine situation. But I just as much disagree with the completely disingenuous and hypocritical stance the Western politicians and their media lapdogs have adopted towards Russia.


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## germancomponist (Mar 3, 2014)

Goran @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> No, I already said (and repeatedly so) that I disagree with Russian policy in the current Ukraine situation. But I just as much disagree with the completely disingenuous and hypocritical stance the Western politicians and their media lapdogs have adopted towards Russia.



I have the same feelings / position.


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## Goran (Mar 3, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> As for Noam Chomsky, what we certainly can obvserve right this moment in the media is "manufacturing consent"!



One of his very finest works btw (co-authored with Herman). And yes, you could practically summarize the current Western media stance in the Ukraine situation as a school-case illustration example for the book and add it as an appendix to a new edition...


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## chimuelo (Mar 3, 2014)

Too bad the western media Parrots aren't smart enough to just shut up.

When you're adversary is making a huge mistake, why would you want to stop him...?
And to pretend we care about the little people doesn't fly.
Otherwise Afrcia would have a larger population.

I am not a fan of billionaires who tell me how terrible it is to be rich, I am not a big fan of the Presidents policies here at home as I find them to be more purchased legislation.

But on foreign policy, with the exception of Libya, he is letting other phuckers play Yankee invader, and bringing our kids back home.
As long as he can keep Biden and Kerrys' mouth shut, I trust him to be wise and keep us out of this "policing" of the world.

When we left iraq, the country fell to pieces, of course it would, and that tells you you should have never stayed in the first place. Arabs will kill each other as borders and religions are of the utmost importance to their Male domination mentality.

But even looking at Iraq right now, we see Israel and Saudi Arabia acting in concert on more than one issue.
Good, let them take care of the locals, they have the skills, the troops and can count on us to tip the balance with B2s and Subs that surround the entire area.

This is a problem for sure, but as I said, this is Putins problem now.
If he leaves, give him the Nobel, if he stays, he is over extended.

If this really gets going we could see Russia totally collapse.
We could make a deal for Russia to join NATO and the EU, and give China Siberia to forgive our debt.

I should run for Governor....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2014)

> A lot of this stuff is very dependent on how you are and how your memory is holding up



Yes, and also which foreign policy experts you believe. For example, yesterday Zbigniew Brzezinski and Madeleine Albright both said on CNN that this is Soviet-style expansionism. Brzezinski even equated passivity against this aggression with appeasing Hitler when he invaded Poland.

On the same program (Fareed Zacharia) a NY college professor...sorry, I forget his name...said it was nothing of the kind. He said Putin just wants to restore Russian prestige, and that's all this is about. Then he used their vastly improved treatment of the Jews in Russia as a yardstick, and pointed out that Putin is better than all but 1-1/2 leaders in the last 400 years (Gorbachev and possibly Yeltsin).

Which side is right? Brzezinski is pretty hawkish, but on the other hand he's the one responsible for putting the final nail in the coffin of the Soviet empire.

I don't know the answer. What I do know is that this is a similar argument to one that went on during the Cold War - is [fill in the leader] acting as a Soviet or a Russian? And while I was no more right-wing hawkish then than I am now, the correct answer was "What difference does it make? We can only go by their behavior."

So I think our government is responding the only way they can, and they're certainly not supposed to say "We're total weenies so we can't criticize them. That would make us hypocrites!"


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## gsilbers (Mar 3, 2014)

seeing in a map that ukraine right/east side speaks russian, why not just give that to the russians or at least divide in 2 the nation between that river that crosses through it.?
i know its controversial (and maybe dumb cuz i dont kow the history) but seems its a good time to do it now than to keep having fights between east and west. 
having one country thats split in two equal parts but one speaks one language and the other another one seems its not going to go too far along until more issues arise. 
most likley the maps are oversimpified and there are sections that criss cross but neverthe less, relocation might not be too big of a deal if you see russian doing it the forced way.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 3, 2014)

::::redacted as useless rant:::::


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2014)

> seeing in a map that ukraine right/east side speaks russian, why not just give that to the russians or at least divide in 2



It's not that clearcut.

And what if the Ukrainians don't want to do that?


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## Goran (Mar 3, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Brzezinski even equated passivity against this aggression with appeasing Hitler when he invaded Poland.



Unbelievebale. Just unbelievebale. *What a disingenuous asshole*. Was allowing Saudi troops to march into Bahrain (with U.S. blessing and nothing but a mild pro-forma calls for "restraint" from Obama (compare this with the wild outrage in the case of Putin)) and crack down on Bahrain protesters just three years ago also like appeasing (one could add: aiding and abetting) Hitler when he invaded Poland? This vulgar apologist for imperialist criminality when it suits his own criminals should better shut the fuck up already. A perfect case in point of a duplicitous scumbag of the variety I've described in my last few posts.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 3, 2014)

I thought earlier, that the least I could do for my native Ukraine, which I haven`t visited for some time now, is to write a descriptive topic here on VI-C to explain things. Now I see there is a topic, and even some of the main pro and against were heard, so I guess I`ll chime in:

- To those who say: "Nah, every politician is a criminal, that doesn`t make him a target for revolution or uprise".... - Sorry, but that`s bullocks!

Ukraine have known highs and (mostly) lows during the last 23 years of independence. The pro-Western governments did not bring magic wands along, and the country was still struggling for the most part. But when Yanukovich (the fled president) is concerned - its rather story of conspiracy, treason, and political sabotage. He was on and off, getting closer to power for the last decade, and when he did win his main term 4 years ago, he certainly had a "good" plan in his sleeves. He could win only by soothing down the polemic over Europe integration: "Of course we will" - while on the other hand his campaign was massively supported by the "eastern friend" (will touch him later) - though not directly.

So once in office, this marionette has bought some time, "actively" participating in different pro EU developments, and mainly the trade agreement which was long discussed and prepared. Not wasting any time, he has established channels by which half of the gold treasury of Ukraine drifted away. The outside debt had doubled (in 4 years!!). And there were some international credits taken - which also have vanished in unknown destination.

As with every "time wasting" show, comes a moment to act (or not) - last fall came the minute of truth, when Yanukovich could not hold off more, and had to sign the EU trade agreement - which he naturally did not. Students and young were the first to take the streets in protest, and they were beaten by "Berkut" government special forces as early as last fall - guess some of you never heard of Ukraine back then. Opposition came in and believe me - not all of them are stupid nationalists. Google the newly chosen prime minister Yatsenyuk - and see him in action. 

Then the eastern friend had to come forward and say: - "Oh, brother Ukranians, we will help you in such hard times. Take our aid, which none of those Europeans could offer, have that cheaper natural gas as well - we understand how it is important. Stay - they will never accept you as equal Europeans. They don`t need your machinery - as it was build in Soviet times, and only we can operate it. Only we want your puny goods and trade. Europeans are not going to buy it - it below their standards and level."

If you think I am joking - go and watch Putin`s traditional 5 hours press meeting. That was his rhetoric - Ukranian goods are rooted in Soviet production standards, they are lousy, so only we buy it! We kinda overgrown it too by now - BUT, if we work together, we could modernize all that old stuff. While the EU will just turn you into farm growing slavery...

At that moment - every other piece of Russian news (after all the Sochi praise headlines) - was about how NAIVE Ukranians are. They think EU will solve any of their problems - etc. etc. Another puppet in "his" stable - Dmitry Medvedev (current prime-minister of Russia) said: - "They will turn you into another Greece or Cyprus!!" - Thus forgetting that the "struggling" Greece and Cyprus are way - WAY above average standard of living for both Russia and Ukraine. 

---Edit--- Just had to add that in - why puppet you say? Medvedev was the "elected president" after first 8 years of Putin ran out. While in office - he didn`t claim presidential apartments outside of Moscow - so for those "intermediate" four years - "prime-minister" Putin was still living in his presidential castle, waiting to take his turn again in next elections  ----

About the Crimea - yes, its mainly Russian, and for long now, Russia had brainwashed those people that Ukranian nationals are on the way to beat them and rape their daughters. So the minute situation got out off hand - soldiers come in and TV flashes with "liberation" footage. Please - share with me ONE youtube video of Nationalists of west Ukraine burning Crimean house. Its farce - even far beyond 2008 Georgian-Abkhazian conflict. 

In case you are wondering - Russia is one of the most corrupted, and failing countries of our time. On the facade - money flows as a river in Moscow, but drive 10 km away, and you will encounter millions of people, which find their consolation in alcohol. When was the last time you bought "made in Russia" product? ..... Well - Russians buy their own goods only from financial restrains. Yesterday all the gold medalist of Russia in Sochi were awarded Mercedes. Awarding them with Russian car would have seen as insult I guess.... 
I know, on the surface it looks like in Putin period Russia has gained its power - but believe me its the contrary. The country is developing by the good old Soviet scenario - drill oil, build facades, show your muscle once in a while - never mind your own people are struggling - you keep them happy with comedy shows - WOW there are dozens of them on the Russian TV - after the news propaganda you have to sooth them with a clown or two.....



So.... - now we are facing situation of ripped off Ukraine, left without a penny, and its parts, which were unnaturally drawn in by Soviet regime now got reclaimed by the eastern friend. Where do these parts end? Putin has many times stated, that Russian borders are made by Russian speaking nations!  So why not Brighton beach!


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 3, 2014)

@Vizmusik

You say:



> Greece and Cyprus are way - WAY above average standard of living for both Russia and Ukraine



I guess you are talking about PPP, and I would like to point out that while local purchasing power in Greece is roughly 42% higher and in Cyprus 116% higher than in Ukraine, this number alone does not tell the whole story, it is misleading.

Consumer prices (without rent) in Greece are 107% higher, 123% higher in Cyprus, and Grocery prices are 96% higher in Greece and 130% higherin Cyprus, now, I would think this puts things into perspective, does it not?

Best
Georg


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 3, 2014)

...another historical perspective by Jeffrey Sommers and Michael Hudson over on counterpunch....

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/03/ukrainian-hangovers/


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

Georg

Take any measure, any counting system , any statistic and so on. The worst EU countries standard of living is WAY WAY above average in Russia and Ukraine. You cannot imagine the misery in those. The high communal payments, the low wages, the corrupted local governors and lowest possible medical care.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 4, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> Georg
> 
> Take any measure, any counting system , any statistic and so on. The worst EU countries standard of living is WAY WAY above average in Russia and Ukraine. You cannot imagine the misery in those. The high communal payments, the low wages, the corrupted local governors and lowest possible medical care.



Hi Vizmusic,

don't get me wrong, I am not disputing that living in the Ukraine means surrviving in a poverty and corruption stricken environment!

However, comparison with territories where the neo-liberal agenda has created future generations of debts slaves and left behind oppressed people that are governed by unelected and unaccountable technocrates, is hardly providing a valid comparison to state that it is so much better in Greece or Cyprus. 

Then again, well, it is much warmer there of course. :wink:


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

Sorry but the article provided is sort of naive as well.

- Even in the Crimea (which I stated is not really Ukrainian) "Russian" population is 60% - rest are Ukrainians and Tatars. Its enough to make things look like its Russian, but with so much confusion in its history - its controversial.

- What does he mean by "Texas ethnic minority" - Mexicans? Well - Ukranians ARE NOT minority living in Russian empire. Not in 21st century at least. Its a slavic nation of its own, and Mr. Putin can show his NATO concerns in his **s once Ukrainian own prosperity and modernization is concerned. Even if you discount "pro-russian" people discussed now - its at least 30 millions of Ukrainians - living in one of the greeniest, large and potentially lovely East-European country.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 4, 2014)

I'm doing my stuck record thing. Give Crimea citizens a referendum. Why is no-one even suggesting this?


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 4, 2014)

I am afraid that the captured politicos and inept diplomats on both sides are a toxic receipt for the people of Crimea and Ukraine. :( 

Historical context, and the resulting manufactured consent aside, all efforts from both sides should focus on the future wellbeing of the 45 million people sharing this country.

I disdain the nato- europhile position that is blasted over the channels ever since. It is the equivalent of pouring oil into a fire and does not help the people there, people in danger of being wound up in the geostrategic gameplans.

NATO should have been dismantled at the same time the Warsaw pact was.

i get the shivers if I listen to Rasmussen and politicos of the EU.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

If you ask average Russian - Western society stinks, and their beloved leader constantly, hourly, protects their values and spirit from degrading. 
Most of the Ukrainians head West (By the way Crimean Tatars do to - even though 20 years of Ukrainian sovereign rule gave them nothing, at least there is a chance to come closer to EU) - and hold on to ideology that they belong in Europe, while hoping for better life in strictly material terms.

This is the main issue now.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> I'm doing my stuck record thing. Give Crimea citizens a referendum. Why is no-one even suggesting this?



Guy - I assume the pro-Russian Crimea will not be put in chains to follow Kiev pro-Western politics. Even if tried , this attitude is doomed. Its an autonomy btw.


The point of current crisis is, that the big brother, as any real emperor should, have meticulously prepared the ground for this action, by making sure further dividing "diverse Ukraine", weakening the politic system by making sure its nor reformatted from the old Soviet way, and now, once the former president has fled - giving him asylum and completely ignoring the temporary chosen Ukrainian government - calling for immediate surrender, and return of the criminal president to power!
So actually, this is deep involvement in "not really your country" which is not believed to stop anytime soon. If you consider that along the way the country was robbed and destabilized (which Russians blame on the opposition) you kind`a see its ongoing game in which Crimea is only one chapter.


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## AC986 (Mar 4, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> Too bad the western media Parrots aren't smart enough to just shut up.
> 
> If this really gets going we could see Russia totally collapse.
> We could make a deal for Russia to join NATO and the EU, and give China Siberia to forgive our debt.
> ...



You should. Hell I would vote for you and all you stood for if I was an American. Heck I might vote for you anyway and make up a nationality of my choice. Everyone in the EU has been doing that for years.

I think we should give the people of Crimea a referendum on whether or not the whole fucking nation moves to the UK. And why not the Ukraine too. That's what they actually want. Plus a bail out of course.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 4, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm doing my stuck record thing. Give Crimea citizens a referendum. Why is no-one even suggesting this?
> ...



Yes, Crimea is technically autonomous, but it is affiliated with Ukraine.

How do we know that's how it would play out? The core of this is that Crimea is disputed territory. If the rest of the world, via the UN, were to table a motion calling for a democratic referendum for the people of Crimea and Russia ignored it, that imo would be a far more powerful and unifying force. It would strike down their (specious in my view) argument that they are doing it for the safety and protection of the people, and would mark them as an occupying force against the people's will.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 4, 2014)

Personally, I wouldn't accept any title less than Emperor. That accountability crap is for the birds.


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## AC986 (Mar 4, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> > A lot of this stuff is very dependent on how you are and how your memory is holding up
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First paragraph was one of the first things that entered my head. Good post and interesting Nick.

When you talk about appeasers, Christ, look no further than Cameron. That guy would appease your next door neighbours fucking bunny rabbit if he thought he would do him any good.

Here's a guy, along with Kerry that thought bombing Syria was 'a good idea at the time' type of deal. Appeasement whichever way you glance at it.

What a world we live in. That said, even though I hate these cts, there seems to be a loosening in the markets today which indicates, or tends to act as a bell weather on world events.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 4, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm doing my stuck record thing. Give Crimea citizens a referendum. Why is no-one even suggesting this?
> ...



Viz, is there a serious possibility of civil war here? Please say no..


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

NYC 

I am afraid there is a possibility of a strong confrontation between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainan (or pro-western) activists - violence on rallies and meetings, wall on wall, and some extreme fanatics on both sides.

What important is, that Putin has brought some big guns in. His soldiers enter legitimate Ukranian headquarters and demand surrender. So far it has been quiet - but if spark ignites, it will be bloody (at least in that area).

There was a great internet video address from the mayor of Lvov , the most western (geographically) Ukrainian city, (which was pro western even in Soviet times) - to the people of Crimea - that there are no gunned nationalists on the way, no pogroms in his city, and he is really sorry that for the last 23 years, no one has taken serious actions to bring such a diverse parts of the country more closely together.

If you open Russian TV from a week ago - people in Crimea were given gas masks and helmets for self defense, and the WWII heroic Sevastopol was proclaimed "under siege again, after 70 years" - TV propaganda pays off


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## handz (Mar 4, 2014)

Sorry but you clearly did not read anythign about the "new goverment" now.

Nacionalist / Facists are already there. And the law that granted usage of Russian language (as huge part of Ukraine speaks russian) was cancelled immediately by this "new goverment"!

People of Svoboda are in goverment - and this is one of strict nationalistic parties in Ukraine, that sympatise with german NPD. Svoboda is Party that publicly adores fight of nationalistic Ukraine with Hitler during the WW2!! 

Really, this is OK for you to have those people in goverment now on main posts? 

also this "nice" party was one of the main protagonists on the maidan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
And independent people, outside massmedia states that first shooting on policemans etc was started by them to escalate the situation. 

I would not accept this over some corrupted president which could have been deposed without all the violence.

And If I would be Russian / Russian speaking citizen of Ukraine I will not feel safe with such people in goverment after such putsch.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

handz

This cancellation was postponed.

Please see and read all the addresses by the current, temporary, prime minister and in-place president, they assure equal rights for all.

True - there is a will to keep Ukrainian the only official language - I agree it could seem controversial, and its a debate not for such a critic time. But lets agree, that between cultural, theoretic arguments, and "feeling unsafe" -is quite a distance.

Now let us put some logic in - the new government sees its ultimate goal as joining the EU - and citing that Ukraine is ready by most parameters - so how could you expect those key people (not the fanatics - unfortunately they exist even on Mars) accept ultra extremists views and breach people`s rights ??

Practically - I guess they couldn`t refuse some form of coalition with the right wind, in times when Yanukovitch`s fall was far off. But I don`t really see Tiagnybok (the extremist leader) doing anything useful in the new government.

Do you think William Hague, and all other coming to Kiev, and shaking Yatsenyuks hand - are naive?


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## AC986 (Mar 4, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> Do you think William Hague, and all other coming to Kiev, and shaking Yatsenyuks hand - are naive?



Can I just respectfully request the moderators of this forum to add an '*Away with the Fairies*' emoticon please.


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## handz (Mar 4, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> handz
> 
> This cancellation was postponed.
> 
> ...



" This cancellation was postponed."

haha, yeah, postponed, not cancelled...after media lose interest they will quietly make it due again... (well not now, after russians noticed this of course )

So it is OK that in current goverment made by armed overthrown are extremistic nationalists on high posts?

About the EU - is EU really want Ukraine at all? We already have countires currently in like Greece to which EU putting tons of money and Im not sure if EU need to load money to another country. Only reason why they may want it to join is to piss off Russia and get close to their borders. Which of course Russia do not like to see. And honestly Im not into this idea either, especially not after what happened. 

Ukraine is sadly almost split in half, language, way of thinking.... EU is not cure for anything, only naive people think like that - that after joining EU there will be work for Everyone etc. We already have tons of Ukrainian workers here and also students - they can come if the want, nobody holds them to stay in Ukraine, but clearly joining EU is not cure for years of bad economy. In Greece there never was such problem with goverment like in Ukraine and still they are bankrupt. 

This is not about EU, this is about nationalism from a big part, part of Ukraine dont like Russians, so they want to the west, sadly it is the part where those nationalistic extremists have lot of fans. And this is dangerous.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

adriancook

Your fine description will do much better than a smilie 

But jokes aside - as half Jew, born and raised in Kiev, I know exactly of the problems you describe. And on the contrary - opposition to imposed figures like Yanukovitch, and trying to get closer to global community is the best way to deal with those problems. Ukraine needs better education and social modernization in order to become less extreme. 
I can`t see how Russia could help with it - a country where parliament puts out laws to forbid western countries families to adopt Russian children (which numbers grow every year).


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

handz @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> " This cancellation was postponed."
> 
> haha, yeah, postponed, not cancelled...after media lose interest they will quietly make it due again... (well not now, after russians noticed this of course )
> 
> ...



That is exactly what I said - I hope no real extremist gets into the government, and currently, at least the two key positions are hold by normal, educated people.

What can be done if extremists have their electorate and votes? You can`t simply ignore those people and their believes - but since most of their issues are circle around Russian pressure, Putin is kind`a playing into their hands.


And those who think that Ukrainians dream to flee to the Europe - simply don`t know the mentality, and nature of this 100 years old opposition. The Ukrainians see themselves AS Europeans, and of the best stock too  Kiev is one of the largest, greenest, and oldest cities in Europe. Lvov and other cities have some history as well. There is a language, culture, and long history of oppression - mostly by Russians - Tsars, then Soviets, now Mr. P. 
There is pride involved in this, so its not strictly about the money. If you think its difficult to build and keep modern, civilized country in Western Europe, try doing that on Russian borders and you`ll see how it goes


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## handz (Mar 4, 2014)

No, reality is that already extreme nationalist party Svoboda have minister posts and also General Attorney post! Eh?!

If they sympatise with facism and antiracial ideas you can not only ignore them but you should use laws against them...

Those paries currently involved in this overthrown and also current goverment are direct continuer of those who were mass murdering Polish minority in Ukraine after WW2. They fought on side of Hilter and also were cooperating on killing Ukrainian jews with them. Current nationalist parties like Svoboda are continuers of those! Not Good. Not good in any sense. And they want to Europe. It is not small group of extremists, this is big issue in Ukraine. They are legitime parties there and currently in goverment. And blind westernb Europe supports them because - of course as usually - Russians are biggest evil. Thankfully German medias started to notice this now and I hope other will too.

It is really strange if they see themselves as Europeans, as Ukraine was never part of Europe, and half of nation is speaking russian (of course we can look on part of russia as europe..)


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

I respect your opinion, but prefer facts over theories.

Lets not get into WWII - otherwise Russia will look especially bad.

Why Ukrainian speak Russian? Why do I? Simply cause it was the "big brother" language for far longer than anyone can remember. Imposed from school till death. And still, there is finest Ukrainian poetry, stage pieces, books and operas. 

Once presented with facts, that Ukraine is head over heels into racism and hate, Russian speakers get beaten on streets, new governments wants oppress minorities etc. I will be the first to go out against it. 

Until then, I see Ukraine accused in armed power overthrow - when police/opposition losses go 1 to 20.
Accused to terrify Crimea - when all I see on the net is Russian soldiers, heavily armed, unlawfully entering foreign country.
Accused in forming non-legitimate (temporary) government - when in fact it was chosen by Yanukovitch own parliament, and his own party abandoning him and calling a traitor.
Accused of extremism - while in all addresses and discussions, newly chosen politicians of the highest rank express modern and educated views. Please see Boris Tarasyuk UN diplomat, and how all the international diplomats greeted him on security meeting yesterday.


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## handz (Mar 4, 2014)

Oh my .... those are not theories those are facts, you need to read all not just western anti russian propaganda. As said German medias already noticed that extreme nationalists now are in Ukraininan goverment and slowly changing their blindly supportive view on "revolution" Sadly I do not have link to that article in english, only in my language. There is stated everything - who is minister now from those extremist parties etc.

In fact Ukraine nationalism and cooperation with Hitler is bad and those are the same nationalists which are still strong in Ukraine and now get into goverment. Russians did tons of evil things but Ukrinians too - no problem with this, it is past, same as I dont hate Germany for WW - actually I like Germany a lot. But In Ukraine parties sympathising with those acts during and after WW2 are strong and now in goverment - this I do not see as good way. Whole this revolution ended badly as any violent one did recently (Egypt etc). It always only leads to the fact that extrtemists getting to power. not good people.

I dont get your point about history of culture - every nation have some.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

I know what you are talking about, handz. Know what happened there on WWII, I too condemn "Svoboda". But current changes are not over nationalism. The country was just robbed, its busted and penniless. And main figure of this swift job fled to Russia, and now in the UN they show his letter asking Putin for military action.

There are more important topics now than some stupid teenagers with black flags.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 4, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> There are more important topics now than some stupid teenagers with black flags.



Hmmm, now that would be a lot of teenagers. :| 

2012 election	
Seats won	38	
Popular vote 2,129,906
Percentage	10.44%	

There is no point in playing down that there is a strongly supported fascist movement at play in the Ukraine.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

Let us say, that if global community bans that party, and its trails would be wiped off the political map - that won`t change much in current situation. If anything at all.
They present, they are in, but they don`t call the shots. And in order to be in, both the government and the parliament, they had to moderate themselves. They cannot openly use racist rhetoric or something - if that`s what you are concerned about. Only in the quiet of their home.

Again - not to defend those idiots, but this change in power is not about them! He was not done by them directly, and they could never ever pull it by themselves. They are in coalition.


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## handz (Mar 4, 2014)

Country was robbed already by Timoshenko - she is same like Yanukovich, and how people believed her and looked at her as a saviour of democracy and Ukraine, funny. 

Sadly in Ukraine there not seem to be any good political party currently. Like in Russia, rich people rule the country. And they want more.

Yanukovich, being good or not, was elected by majority of people in democratic elections. And was now violently overthrown by few people from who huge percentage are extremists. 

He was not dictator and was not doing anything against human rights like Kadafi and such dictators did or lets stay in former USSR - Belarus, yes there they have reason to start demonstrations - Lukashenko acts like dictator and is extremely controversial. 

You trying to make it like "some teenagers with black flags" but NO it is not about teenagers. Svoboda already have ministers in govërment. This is BIG PROBLEM for democracy. 

And count on it that those were the people who started the riots and violence in the streets! If there were some good demonstrants who wanted just change, they should distance from those nationalist immediately and go out of maidan. 

They stayed with thousandsof of radical, militant nationalists there...not sound clever or right to me. They needed those people,

Now they have coalition - yes, this is insane. So nonlegitimate goverment now rules which consists of nationalist radicals and demonstrants. I dont see anything good about this. As said - only thing happened is that extremists got more power lilke everywhere in the recent past where some president or dictator was overthrown.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 4, 2014)

I am no expert on these matters, but kicking Yarosh out of his chair would send a clear signal to all involved I think.

Then again, I would agree that this is a chapter that plays on the side for the moment being.

I am not holding my breath that this situation is solved within a few days....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2014)

"America Ukraine needs better education and social modernization in order to become less extreme"[/i]

"Like in America Russia, rich people rule the country. And they want more."

^ That's supposed to be strikethrough


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## chimuelo (Mar 4, 2014)

I invaded my neighbors house this morning becasue I heard their Poodle Fluffy barking, and assumed there were Animal rights being violated.
In doing so I discovered it was a hydroponic weed growing facility, and confiscated all the weed as it's illegal.

To save the little people from this deadly assasin of youth, I will keep it for myself, lest it go to the redistributors where they will tax and regulate who gets high and for how much.

Now my studio has a throne built out of 60 Kilo's and I feel really powerful when I sit there. I've decided to pay all artists who come to record there with Weed.

I can relate to what Putin is feeling right about now, and like him will use my resources to control other musicians.
If the EU makes a move, he shuts the gas off.
If a musician tries to tell me how to mix and give him more reverb, I will dip into his bag and extract more weed.



For the record, I fed the dog, did not beat it or shoot it.

The moral of the story is, don't count on a chihuahua or poodle to gaurd your livliehood. Those Dogs don't hunt.
You need a Pit Bull, or better yet a life sized cut out of Sarah Palin with a 30-06.

We just sent a Toy Pinsher to Keiv, and a Schnauzer from Germany is also barking at the big Bear in Russia.
Wonder if the Bear will lay down and roll over...?


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## NYC Composer (Mar 4, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> I invaded my neighbors house this morning becasue I heard their Poodle Fluffy barking, and assumed there were Animal rights being violated.
> In doing so I discovered it was a hydroponic weed growing facility, and confiscated all the weed as it's illegal.
> 
> To save the little people from this deadly assasin of youth, I will keep it for myself, lest it go to the redistributors where they will tax and regulate who gets high and for how much.
> ...



You're right. We should have sent McCain wearing an American flag headscarf , with a knife between his teeth and blood in his eye.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 4, 2014)

handz - I know you mean good, but in current situation, it is no escape but to rule out some facts straight.

The monetary changes: debt doubling, treasury half cut, credits taken - are all from the recent years, i.e. when Yanukovitch took office they were yet to happen. 
The "Svoboda" you are so concerned with - is less than a third of the Maidan opposition - which in fact was led by liberal Yatsenyuk and former boxing champ Klichko. Now the opposition itself were about a half of the political scene - cause another half was in the office, Yanukovitsh party and so on. So its less than a third of a half - sounds hardly overwhelming!

And this "Svoboda" guy - Tyagnibok - will never tell you in public any racist propaganda - formally its anti-communist, pro-Ukrainian national party. And yes - if any of them hits their neighborhood with black flags rally - its mostly teenagers, "Svoboda" was known for being largely based on them. Now it might change, since all the prophecy of the kremlin aggression - most stupidly fulfilling itself. Cause when in 1994 Ukraine was stripped of its nuclear potential, USA and Russia signed memorandum by which they are the guarantees of Ukraine`s peace and integrity - and this lurky Tyagnibok has shouted for some time now, that Russia looks to breach that memorandum, so who actually wins from Mr.P. moves now?

So its just no excuse to call this uprise Nationalistic or whatever - cause its not! Every country has its right wing, and I am sure they get more than 2 million supporters elsewhere. 

This temporary government was formed by the parliament after Yanukovitsh treason, and yes there are new elections on the way (25 of May) so what the big deal to wait and see people`s vote?


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## AC986 (Mar 4, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Mar 04 said:


> I invaded my neighbors house this morning becasue I heard their Poodle Fluffy barking, and assumed there were Animal rights being violated.



My neighbour had a poodle called Isca that died of natural causes. Had she been called Fluffy I would have been forced to shoot it, or my neighbour, or both. I don't know if there's a moral there or not or any potential for redistribution. I just know I don't like poodles that bark.


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## chimuelo (Mar 4, 2014)

Now you know how Putin feels. He will tolerate the angry women at the UN and barking Poodles, as he already made his move and took what he needed.

The EU will continue lining the pockets of energy Oligarchs and Putin, and I hope we stay true to ourselves by sending barking dogs, while retreating from prior agreements that we can no longer afford.

We are into wealth redistribution now. That is more important than war. Right now if China took control of the Japanese Islands, we could defend them as long as China would lend us the money to fight them. 

So borrowing more cash to give to Ukraine will probably happen as a sign of great symbolism showing we care about the little people, but in the real world, the redistributors get the cash, and keep a large portion of it.

I expect to see some great photo ops, and hopefully they will remember that people are suffering, so put on the I am sad and angry face, then shake hands and smile when the cameras are off. That's the DC way, I assume the same works in Kiev.


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## AC986 (Mar 4, 2014)

We really must have a keyboard duel soon. Why oh why can't there be a Ryder Cup for keyboard players. Or countries that have issues.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 5, 2014)

Question, especially to Vlzmusic and handz: Is this information correct/neutral from your point of view and if not, where:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_crisis


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

Good question. In my view, in times of paid editing, I would be very sceptical about the neutrality of Wikipedia articles especially on actual geo-political aspects, being highly exposed to manipulative editing from many sides in deed.

It is very difficult to maintain a somehwat informed position when propaganda machines are well oiled and in full swing on both sides.

On top, some of the facts are hidden amongst layers of a deliberate fog, not to be seen on the surface for everyone at a glance. While the public is presented with the inmy view twisted opinions of former NATO chief Wesley Clark, facts such as Clinton's renegging on the deal with Grobatschow that NATO is not to expand any further towards Russia is not part of the "public education" in this context.

Germanys FDI (Foreign Direct Investement) in the Crimea is just second place behind Russia. 

The moral high ground that is played in the media by western interests must appear rather laughable to anyone with a little historical context knowledge.

In my experience, it is not possible to have a single concentrated source of information to stay on the ball, it is bits and pieces that need to be put together to get a fairly clear picture.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

As for sources that are reasonably safe to get reliable informations from, I refer often to SIPRI for example, Stockholm International Peace Research Institute to get in context Informations.



> According to the SIPRI Arms Transfers Database, the Ukraine was the 9th largest arms exporter for the period 2008-2012



http://www.sipri.org/


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

or the Carnegie Endowment to name but a few.

http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=54743

or Brookings Institute and Chatham House for example come to mind.

http://www.chathamhouse.org/

http://www.brookings.edu/

Having said that, one needs to inform himself on the history of the various think tanks and not take everything for granted that is written there without considering possible leanings, and then there are the daily papers of course.

It would be interesting to learn from others here what sources they prefer to get a clearer picture.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 5, 2014)

@G.R. Baumann
Good sources, keep them coming.
My gut says that this conflict will in the end not be solved but buried under a huge pile of money, err debts. But my head needs more information and analysis.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

Certainly there is economic warfare at play Hannes. Whether it is the Troika, ruffling their own feathers at the moment, the U.S. or Putin, money /debts will be thrown onto Ukraine with demands of course, usually followed by privatisation.

A Banker and Economist at the helm again, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, made me super suspicious to be honest. Have we not seen clearly what the agenda is in other countries in Europe in the past six years? Frankly I don't trust him a bit. He is too much in line with neo liberal agendas, at the same time promoting to not allow russian language, or for any pro-russian politician to run in an election. 

The crimea will never be the same again in my view. It remains to be seen whether escalation, be it with false flag operations or any other kind can be avoided.

The arthritic brains of octogenerian cold warriors in the US and parts of Europe are no use for a reasonable future solution, on the contrary.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

Acting Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

https://twitter.com/AndriiDesh


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 5, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Texas, Alaska and the southern states formed each on their own, separate countries.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> If only that could actually happen


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 5, 2014)

Thanks George!

I went through the materials swiftly. Wiki looked decent. Its nice to see the "lead figures" table on the bottom right listing the really important people, as the temporary president, prime minister, etc. Their party, "Fatherland" is quite liberal btw.

Didn`t like the tone and writing in the "carnegie" article. I don`t think EU should be a nursery for the new Ukrainian coalition. After all, those people are decade in politics, and share responsibility for current state of affairs.

I know this situation is difficult to understand from outside. For example what is generally meant behind all this - "russian speaking" characteristic?

I am Ukranian/Jew born in Kiev. Both my Ukranian grandparents were labor captives in Germany 1941-1945. The Jewish side grandparents were in evacuation, in the east. All four were already speaking Russian, besides Ukrainian/Yiddish cause it was the "empire" language. Of course, for both my parents (born in 1940-ies), Russian was already considered mother language.

Does it make us Russians? There are native Russians in Ukraine, but mainly mixture.

Lets say, I cannot see big reason, changing East-Ukrainian bus signs, mandatory documents etc. as it would hamper their lives. But what the hell, Lenin street names and monuments are doing in Ukraine by 2014!? If you see any cultural weight in those bulky bastards - take them to your kremlin collection.

I think, that ONLY for the Chernobyl (I was in first grade then) - being positioned where it is, and operated as it was, and the catastrophe being criminally hushed - the Russian government has to put ash on their heads for the rest of their puny lives. Exactly like the Germans do with the Holocaust.

And what with the 1920-ies collectivisation hunger deaths? 10-15 millions!!


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## MR F (Mar 5, 2014)

> But what the hell, Lenin street names and monuments are doing in Ukraine by 2014!? If you see any cultural weight in those bulky bastards - take them to your kremlin collection.



Same problem here in Poland. Not on that scale but it happens. Just two weeks ago city council in eastern part of my country decided to move monument of Red Army general (who is responsible for killing thousands of Poles btw) built there during soviet occupation. Russian Ambassador said it's unaccaptable and is currently trying to stop that intiative. It's not a big deal you might say and maybe you are right but it shows what Russian goverment thinks about it's European neighbours.

And here is the problem: for Russian goverment: Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania and other Baltic countries are not sovereign states or at least they shouldn't be. That's why I know Putin doesn't give a shit about Crimea (well, it's the Black Sea so he does but it's not the main reason he's there). He wants it all and he will do everything to keep Ukraine gov obedient .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2014)

> My gut says that this conflict will in the end not be solved but buried under a huge pile of money, err debts



And the conditions for the EU $15 billion loan your gut - and the front page of the NY Times  - is talking about will include savage austerity, which will make the situation worse.


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## José Herring (Mar 5, 2014)

I'm starting to sense that the whole thing is some sort of money grab. Oh Russian invades, quick send them billions of dollars in "aid". I'd like to keep track of where that money actually ends up.


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> The moral high ground that is played in the media by western interests must appear rather laughable to anyone with a little historical context knowledge.



Absolutely. To anybody with even a limited historical knowledge of the more recent criminal record of Western imperialism the farcical moralizing posturing of major Western governments is beyond preposterous.


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> A Banker and Economist at the helm again, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, made me super suspicious to be honest. Have we not seen clearly what the agenda is in other countries in Europe in the past six years? Frankly I don't trust him a bit. He is too much in line with neo liberal agendas, at the same time promoting to not allow russian language, or for any pro-russian politician to run in an election.



Exactly. Another neo-liberal cleptocrat scumbag (kind of a Timoschenko junior (shiver...)). Not that Janukovitch was any better. But he certainly wasn't any worse then what was before him, not to speak of what will come after him, if USA/EU lapdogs of the Yatsenyuk variety manage a complete takeover and drown any political articulation of the movement's social demands in nationalist hysteria (which seems to be a general agenda at the moment).


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2014)

Goran @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > A Banker and Economist at the helm again, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, made me super suspicious to be honest. Have we not seen clearly what the agenda is in other countries in Europe in the past six years? Frankly I don't trust him a bit. He is too much in line with neo liberal agendas, at the same time promoting to not allow russian language, or for any pro-russian politician to run in an election.
> ...



I don't disagree with some of the content of what you say, though I find the rhetorical floridity a bit much.

Having said what you've said though, do you think being left to the tender mercies of Mister Putin and his obvious desire to return Russia to its former glories of empire would be any better? Obviously, self determination is the desired outcome by well wishing outsiders (like myself) but I don't think it plays out exactly that way in any scenario given the economics and the political struggles between titans.


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> I don't disagree with some of the content of what you say, though I find the rhetorical floridity a bit much.
> 
> Having said what you've said though, do you think being left to the tender mercies of Mister Putin and his obvious desire to return Russia to its former glories of empire would be any better? Obviously, self determination is the desired outcome by well wishing outsiders (like myself) but I don't think it plays out exactly that way in any scenario given the economics and the political struggles between titans.



I don't see any desire "to return Russia to its former glories of empire" in the current situation. Whatever one may think of Putin (and I happen to be Putin's political opponent, although from completely different positions and for entirely different reasons then those of a vulgar pro-Western propaganda peddler), it must be said that during the last two decades the West has broken _every single promise it has made to Russia_ when it made the deal for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact (btw, why isn't NATO dissolved?) and has actively and aggressively pursued the expansion _of its own imperial influence_ ever further to the East (as it is trying to do right now in the Ukraine). I strongly disagree with Putin's politics in this situation, but that has to be put into perspective - he is now villified by those who don't have _any right whatsover to lecture anybody_ on warmongering, human rights, destabilizing countries when it suites them, imperialism or anything else.

I agree with the second point - no true independence of Ukraine is possible either under USA/EU vassals or under Putin's vassals.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2014)

Goran @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't disagree with some of the content of what you say, though I find the rhetorical floridity a bit much.
> ...



A "vulgar pro-Western propaganda peddler." Strong indictment (and again, rhetorically florid, the kind of language propaganda is often couched in.) Anyway, who would you be refering to?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2014)

Question: can *any* country claim moral high ground?

Answer: no. It's only a matter of degree.

Realpolitik rules in international relations. Nations act in their perceived interest.


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> A "vulgar pro-Western propaganda peddler." Strong indictment (and again, rhetorically florid, the kind of language propaganda is often couched in.) Anyway, who would you be refering to?



Strong (or rhetorically florid) indictments aren't necessarily false (or hyperbolic). There is a myriad of cases in point among journalists and politicians right now, but let's take two very prominent recent cases - Brzezinski ("appeasing Putin is like appeasing Hitler when he invaded Poland") and Kerry ("this isn't 19th century where you can just invade another country without a valid reason" (I was really impressed by that one, I mean, _this guy really knows no shame_... anybody remember Iraqi WMD's? or similar "valid reasons"?)). I find that every single attribute in "vulgar pro-Western propaganda peddler" is fully justified in both of these - they are both a) vulgar b) pro-Western and c) propaganda peddlers.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

On the financial side of things, Eurozone Banks Exposure to Ukraine:

French, Italian and German Bank loans, in that order: $326B (AGC Analytics)


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2014)

Goran @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > A "vulgar pro-Western propaganda peddler." Strong indictment (and again, rhetorically florid, the kind of language propaganda is often couched in.) Anyway, who would you be refering to?
> ...



No, they're not necessarily false or hyperbolic- but to say that style does not affect the way content is perceived is naive or uninformed.

So, you're saying that your statement referred to Kerry and Brezhinski? Because the idea that "the West" or "the Western media" or "the Americans" or "the EU" is one thing with one point of view is absurd.


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> Realpolitik rules in international relations. Nations act in their perceived interest.



Fair enough. But if this applies to USA, UK or Germany, it applies to Russia as well (or anybody else).


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> On the financial side of things, Eurozone Banks Exposure to Ukraine:
> 
> French, Italian and German Bank loans, in that order: $326B (AGC Analytics)



Says a lot, doesn't it? Money talks.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 5, 2014)

What gripes Putin is that Russia is no longer one of the two military superpowers OR the three economic superpowers.

He longs for a return to the era when the USSR was both, but he is a historical hiccough who is only going to preside over a failed attempt to reverse the irreversible Unfortunately, he will leave a lot of harm in his wake.


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> .
> 
> No, they're not necessarily false or hyperbolic- but to say that style does not affect the way content is perceived is naive or uninformed.



D'accord.



NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> So, you're saying that your statement referred to Kerry and Brezhinski? Because the idea that "the West" or "the Western media" or "the Americans" or "the EU" is one thing with one point of view is absurd.



It referred to the currently ruling position in the Western political establishment and the (mainstream) media. At the moment, both are promoting an anti-Russian consensus with both shameless arguments and provenly malign intentions.


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > On the financial side of things, Eurozone Banks Exposure to Ukraine:
> ...



Last monday, Citigroup in its annual 10-K SEC filing has aggregate exposure in Russia of $10.3 billion, with total assets of $1.880 trillion, that is 0.6%. or 7.7% from Basel III Tier1 Capital requirement.

Bank of America stands at 6.7b, JPMorgan Chase 5.4b exposure. All this is not a biggy, but serious enough to trigger write downs, no doubts!


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 5, 2014)

Nonsense, Goran, Being anti-Putin tactics is not equivalent to being anti-Russian any more than being against the Iraqi incursion was necessarily anti-US.


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> Nonsense, Goran, Being anti-Putin tactics is not equivalent to being anti-Russian any more than being against the Iraqi incursion was necessarily anti-US.



Well... :wink:


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Mar 5, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nonsense, Goran, Being anti-Putin tactics is not equivalent to being anti-Russian any more than being against the Iraqi incursion was necessarily anti-US.
> ...




That did not represent the thinking of a large number of Americans, maybe even a majority of Americans. His approval ratings were among the lowest recorded by any American president;


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2014)

Goran @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



Here we can sort of agree. I don't think there's necessarily a consensus here, but the leanings are strong, and it's definitely cat vs dog, probably mostly about monetary interests as it so often is. Go team go!

I have deep issues with Obama at the moment, but Obama/Biden is not Bush/Cheney. Much of the malignant menace you refer to belonged to that administration. Obama's doing some disturbing continuance but the differences are also palpable. It's just too broad a brush you're painting with in my view. Historically, it's too easy to go back to Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland. Empires tend to try to expand. 

Putin is protecting his imperial interests, and I think it would be odd to expect him not to- but he is no force for truth and righteousness. Let's face it, pretty much all of the players here are acting with self interest. I'm sure there are fairly awful corruption issues WITHIN Ukraine that will make things even harder for self determination of any sort.

Anyway, I'm bloviating. I hope things go as best as they possibly can for the peoples of Ukraine.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> That did not represent the thinking of a large number of Americans, maybe even a majority of Americans. His approval ratings were among the lowest recorded by any American president;



Incorrect in so far as approval rates are not static and changed. 

Short after his "ultimatum speech" the approval for incursion in Iraq amongst Americans stood at 76%.

But all that was another theater....


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> Nonsense, Goran, Being anti-Putin tactics is not equivalent to being anti-Russian any more than being against the Iraqi incursion was necessarily anti-US.



I didn't mean anti-Russian in that sense, but in the "Russia the current political entity with its ruling establishment's concrete politics in the given situation" sense. In their case, however, the opposition to that is for all the wrong (and rotten) reasons, and I hold it (for the reasons I've already stated in detail) to be worthless on both principled and practical level.


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## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> I have deep issues with Obama at the moment, but Obama/Biden is not Bush/Cheney. Much of the malignant menace you refer to belonged to that administration. Obama's doing some disturbing continuance but the differences are also palpable.



There are differences, but imo it has been conclusively shown that these aren't of a principled, but of a pragmatic character. And even if Obama himself personally wanted to break with the U.S. ruling class' imperialist warmongering abroad and robbing the working population blind at home, he would have to align himself with and mobilize the American working class on a directly confrontational social and political programme for that to become possible - which he neither can nor wants to do. And as "radical" as that may sound, I think there will be no way around this if the bankster-bomber axis which, let us be honest, is the true ruler of the country, is ever to be dethroned.



NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> Let's face it, pretty much all of the players here are acting with self interest.



My point exactly. And we shouldn't be supporting the stronger robber's rotten and disingenuous propaganda against the weaker robber (which doesn't mean we should support the weaker robber either).


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## Hannes_F (Mar 5, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > On the financial side of things, Eurozone Banks Exposure to Ukraine:
> ...



I understand what you and others here are saying.

However to be fair I would like to understand: What is the right thing to do then?

If loans are given - then any action after that will be regarded as symptom of own interest (with some reason).

If loans are not given - then the complaints will be even louder for not bailing out, see the Cyprus and Greece situation not long ago ... austerity discussion ... yada yada.

So it seems that the only acceptable options in regards to money would either be to stay out of it completely (which would be quite cold), or to send money as a gift and write that completely off. Right?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2014)

GR Baumann, I and my family - including my then 8-year-old daughter - were on the street with lots of other people protesting on the eve of the Iraq war.

Saying that I - as one of the 300 million Americans you're lumping together - supported that piece of shit Bush is deeply offensive. Just so you know, I hated him so much I couldn't stand to look at him.


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## chimuelo (Mar 5, 2014)

If I were the Ukranians, I would seek asylum and migrate to Europe where severe austerity measures have cut back 2 years of severance pay to 1.

The message Kerry sent by giving Ukraine 1 Billion was a sign that you need to get the fuck out of here.
Hell we give N.Korea more money than that.
But then again their great society programs have been a huge success. 
At night their practice of low carbon emissions to save Earth make the entire nation as black as the Oceans, while destroyers of the Planet can be seen all over China, Japan and S.Korea. 

What's the use. In 5 years Ukranian currency will have Putins face on it, and there'll be staues of him wrestling tigers naked in the city of Kiev.
The spread of Democracy never seems to work for the US, but I guess the EU will learn the hard way as we did.

The USA should import millions of Ukranians and put them on Obamacare and give them EBT cards.
They would be shocked at how nice it is to be in poverty in the USA.
I can see Ukranian teens fainting when asked which color of the iPhone 5 they want.

But then again I can understand wanting to live in 85 inches of snow.
Not all of us love huge Resorts packed with babes in bikinis.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 5, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> ...the approval for incursion in Iraq amongst Americans stood at 76%.



Eh, more like 60%. But, what's the point here?


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> GR Baumann, I and my family - including my then 8-year-old daughter - were on the street with lots of other people protesting on the eve of the Iraq war.



So was I Nick. 



> Saying that I - as one of the 300 million Americans you're lumping together - supported that piece of shit Bush is deeply offensive. Just so you know, I hated him so much I couldn't stand to look at him.



So you did not belong to that 76% at one point in time either. Why feeling offended then? I was only referring to facts.


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## impressions (Mar 5, 2014)

in case anyone missed this-
10 facts of putin's fictional claims for his aggresive behaviour.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/p ... 38527.html


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> What is the right thing to do then?
> 
> If loans are given - then any action after that will be regarded as symptom of own interest (with some reason).
> 
> ...



Moin moin,

Russia offered what, a total of 15b to Ukraine I think it was. Europe 11b and so the show goes on, the IMF will offer as well.

One could argue that now "we" in Europe are asked to bailout oligarchs, banks and corrupted institutions again. - Problem 1.: Ahem, we are not even asked to begin with! Problem 2.: There are already voices that demand the ESM to be used for that. Ouch! etc. - The monies offered are conditional of course, some conditions are obvious, others not so much for the public sphere. 

My view is this, I would argue that the Ukraine is insolvent by now. (Technically) According to internationally accepted law, and btw. this should have been applied to Ireland as well some years ago, the debts run up to now need to be analysed and split into acceptable debts and *odious debts*.

So, instead of loading more debts onto the people of Ukraine, who will have no say in all this to begin with, but essentially will be asked to pay for it now and in the future, and with interest, I would suggest to repudiate all odious debts to begin with. Then all non odious bank loans need to be examined on their contracts. Banks need to exercise debt forgiveness as well in my view. 

The principle might not be known to everyone here. It is truly internationally accepeted, and feared law. See this UNCTAD document below.

http://unctad.org/en/Docs/osgdp20074_en.pdf

Then in a next step, we need to establish what the country needs to run public offices and services for the people of the Ukraine for a transition period.

This financing could come from a common fund that is equally served by Russia, Europe, China, USA etc.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > ...the approval for incursion in Iraq amongst Americans stood at 76%.
> ...



See the smiley beside my post with the video? It was meant to be humor to tone down Jay a wee bit, but it did not translate unfortunately.

mea culpa mea maxima culpa


----------



## Goran (Mar 5, 2014)

impressions @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> in case anyone missed this-
> 10 facts of putin's fictional claims for his aggresive behaviour.
> 
> http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/p ... 38527.html



An another excercise in hypocricy. The claims made by the authors may in themselves be true, but the framework within which they are placed (that "we", as opposed to Putin, care about "stability" and "human rights" as opposed to "power" (US State Department Samaritans again :lol: )) is disingenuous and deliberately decieving. As I said, just _apply the very same arguments_ this champions of "human rights" apply to Russian intervention on Crimea to, let's say, Saudi intervention in Bahrain three years ago (which wasn't merely "tolerated", it was agreed upon between State Department, the Saudis and the Bahrain royalty) and you'll immediately see how worthless their moral posturing is. 

An another important point which is consistently ignored in the article (well, I suppose they would have every reason not to mention that small (but decisive) detail): The fact of the _continuous and ever further going millitary and political encirclement of Russia_ in the last two decades by progressively converting its neighboring countries into obedient U.S. client states. 

And finally, here is a sobering mental excercise: let us imagine how this knights of virtue would react if Russia encircled USA by installing pro-Moscow governments in Mexico and Canada, and made them memebers of a military alliance which it has the final say in?


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Mar 5, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> Saudi intervention in Bahrain three years ago (which wasn't merely "tolerated", it was agreed upon between State Department, the Saudis and the Bahrain royalty) and you'll immediately see how worthless their moral posturing is.



....and CENTCOM has the 5th Fleet where?.... exactly!



> MANAMA, Bahrain, June 8, 2010(UPI) -- The U.S. Navy is doubling the size of its Persian Gulf naval base at Manama, which officials say will greatly enhance the capabilities of the U.S. 5th Fleet, which has headquarters in the island state.
> Officials are reluctant to link the $580 million expansion to the confrontation with Iran across the gulf.
> 
> They say the project has been in the works since 2003 in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But it coincides with a sharp increase in Iranian naval activity in the gulf in recent weeks.
> ...


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> impressions @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > in case anyone missed this-
> ...



Given that I know of no militarily powerful nations throughout history who were not extremely self interested, posturing and imperialistic, I have a non- weighted question for you (I'm really curious)- given only two choices, would you live in Putin's Russia or Obama's America?


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## Goran (Mar 6, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> Given that I know of no militarily powerful nations throughout history who were not extremely self interested, posturing and imperialistic, I have a non- weighted question for you (I'm really curious)- given only two choices, would you live in Putin's Russia or Obama's America?



That would strongly depend upon what I would be doing for a living and under what conditions. You can be sure that I would choose a middle-class Russian's conditions over that of the poorest 30-40% of today's Americans any time.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 6, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Given that I know of no militarily powerful nations throughout history who were not extremely self interested, posturing and imperialistic, I have a non- weighted question for you (I'm really curious)- given only two choices, would you live in Putin's Russia or Obama's America?
> ...



Fair enough. Lets assume a middling lifestyle in both., some creature comforts but not luxury.


----------



## Goran (Mar 6, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> Goran @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> ...



In the sense of political and societal perspectives - not much to choose from here imo. Russia is in a depressing state, but the USA stands no better - the country is on the best way to become an open dictatorship of the finance capital and the millitary-industrial-intelligence complex, which are neither willing nor able for any sort of a societal compromise with the majority of the population and will tolerate no political or economical challenge to their rule. If this process continues in the times to come, a political (and social) revolution (and possibly a revolutionary civil war) in the USA will become inevitable.


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## impressions (Mar 6, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> An another excercise in hypocricy. The claims made by the authors may in themselves be true, but the framework within which they are placed (that "we", as opposed to Putin, care about "stability" and "human rights" as opposed to "power" (US State Department Samaritans again :lol: )) is disingenuous and deliberately decieving.



of course US uses this as an excuse to attack its parallel in power. 
and of course no one is sacred in this pure world of corruption. but does that make it okay for russia to invade Ukraine?

justifying crime because it exists in the world, doesn't make it right.

saying the world is corrupted because that's the way of things is the way of communist dictatorship in good old USSR.

you're basically saying "may be true" as if the truth doesn't matter in here, only the fact that another party has interests in the matter. 

if that "may be true" maybe the truth doesn't matter, so only power is important to you?


and i would definitely pick US over russia to live. have you ever been to both states?


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## Goran (Mar 6, 2014)

impressions @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> but does that make it okay for russia to invade Ukraine?



didn't say it does.



impressions @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> justifying crime because it exists in the world, doesn't make it right.



didn't say it does either.



impressions @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> you're basically saying "may be true" as if the truth doesn't matter in here, only the fact that another party has interests in the matter.



didn't say it doesn't matter - it does. but that US State Department's Op-Ed you posted merely employes the usual propaganda techniques, such as a) the promotion of particular concrete truths in the service and within the framework of a bigger lie b) applying one set of standards to their own actions and an another to the actions of others and c) practising silence or denial on relevant facts when these don't suit them




impressions @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> and i would definitely pick US over russia to live. have you ever been to both states?



I've been to neither, but happen to know a thing or two about both. And as far as USA are concerned, I fully adhere to the great late George Carlin's insight:_ "It's called the American Dream because one has to be asleep to believe it."_


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 6, 2014)

Well, looks like someone heard my referendum idea...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26465962

The west might not like it, but if it's a truly free and democratic referendum, they're going to have trouble arguing against it.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 6, 2014)

Goran, and others, who bring in the rhetoric of NATO closing on Russian interests circle - please understand, that there was never such need, to persuade Ukrainian majority in their East-European and pro-Western self-identification. 

On the contrary, one of the main upset feelings people express, is that Poland, Czech, Slovakian, Hungarian country had somewhat equal head start in ~ 1990-1991. And, as the say goes: "Where are they now...."

If anyone interested - make a swift look through some of the central and western Ukrainian cities Wiki - just to see their background:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzhhorod

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukachevo


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## AC986 (Mar 6, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Mar 05 said:


> I can see Ukranian teens fainting when asked which color of the iPhone 5 they want.



+1


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 6, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> chimuelo @ Wed Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I can see Ukranian teens fainting when asked which color of the iPhone 5 they want.
> ...



Especially those:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... JKJcw#t=86


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 6, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> I've been to neither, but happen to know a thing or two about both. And as far as USA are concerned, I fully adhere to the great late George Carlin's insight:_ "It's called the American Dream because one has to be asleep to believe it."_



Did Carlin say that before or after he defected? Wait a minute, you mean he didn't? I wonder why. :roll: 

I don't have the stats but I would be greatly surprised if there was even a hundredth of the number of Americans emigrating to Russia as Russians emigrating the the US. If I am correct, I wonder what they have figured out that you have not yet Goran, A "thing or two" sounds like an accurate statement about what you know about living in the US.


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## Goran (Mar 6, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> Did Carlin say that before or after he defected? Wait a minute, you mean he didn't? I wonder why. :roll:



Noam Chomsky didn't "defect" either. Which says perfectly nothing about the inherent merit of his arguments. As it doesn't of Carlin's.



EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> I don't have the stats but I would be greatly surprised if there was even a hundredth of the number of Americans emigrating to Russia as Russians emigrating the the US.



Which has no relevance whatsoever for the concrete reasons I gave in my case. As I said, it would depend on concrete conditions - and if these were, in my particular case, better in Russia, I would go to Russia. It's as simple as that. 

And I would also have some news for you: "living in USA" isn't Martha's Vineyard and Beverly Hills - it is (and that for the ever increasing majority of the population) Detroit, Baltimore, St. Louis & New Orleans. So, please, do not insult my intelligence with the American Dream crap.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 6, 2014)

Never mind, As soon as someone cites Chomsky as a reference, I can no longer have enough respect for that person's opinions to have a productive discussion.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 6, 2014)

Weired story about the Ahston phone leak isn't it? Snipers from the current Ukraine Government were involved in the killings alledgedly.

cui bono


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## Goran (Mar 6, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> Never mind, As soon as someone cites Chomsky as a reference, I can no longer have enough respect for that person's opinions to have a productive discussion.



Of course you can't. Please do pardon me for not citing the New York Times, the National Endowment for Democracy or similar "respectable" sources as a reference. :roll:


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## NYC Composer (Mar 6, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Never mind, As soon as someone cites Chomsky as a reference, I can no longer have enough respect for that person's opinions to have a productive discussion.
> ...



Perhaps he pefers to read more nuanced discussions rather than pedantic polemical diatribes. 

:wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 6, 2014)

> mea culpa mea maxima culpa



And mea too. Unwittingly you struck a deep nerve. 

But you also have to remember that the 70% approval rating was because Bush lied to the country. People believed the WMD story.

And that's on top of the inherent tendency for people to unite behind wars, at least when they first start.

***

Having said that, yes, it is pathetic how stupid so many American people are. But that's everywhere, I guess.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 6, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> > mea culpa mea maxima culpa
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have to take slight issue here. As an American and specifically as a New Yorker whose wife was within a few hundred feet of both the '93 and the 2001 bombings, whose son was in nursery school a quarter mile away, I think it's hard for outsiders to fully understand the sudden shock that our insular world experienced in 2001. Remember, it wasn't just what happened then, it was "what's next??"

The neo-cons Cheney and Rumsfeld had been preparing for this moment during their entire political careers, and Bush the neophyte was easy pickings. They concocted, not just a lie, but a truly monstrous lie using some very credible national figures and organizations to front for them or lie for them. This could have happened anywhere- yes we were duped, but humans all over the world are dupe-able. That this is our shame and a national and international tragedy is inarguable from my perspective, but no one on the outside of the situation should be so quick to judge, especially those who can manage to dredge up the memories of National Socialism. Historical perspective is so interesting, isn't it?


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## AC986 (Mar 6, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> I think it's hard for outsiders to fully understand the sudden shock that our insular world experienced in 2001. Remember, it wasn't just what happened then, it was "what's next??"



Any specific country you have in mind there Larry?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 6, 2014)

Larry, I'm not sure what you take issue with....unless my comment about people being stupid wasn't clear. I mean that half the country voted for Bush - not just once but twice! It was totally obvious that the man was very mediocre from the beginning.


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## Goran (Mar 6, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> But you also have to remember that the 70% approval rating was because Bush lied to the country. People believed the WMD story.



With this I strongly agree. It would be delusional to condemn general populations for giving support to wars and political establishment criminality in general under the conditions of incessant and overwhelming propaganda barrage coming from at least 95% of all media outlets. When the table is rigged like that from the very start (and the money owning the largest part of the media landscape has a vested interest in promoting _the ideas of the ruling into ruling ideas_ (Karl Marx)), you better not be surprised by the outcome.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 6, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> Larry, I'm not sure what you take issue with....unless my comment about people being stupid wasn't clear. I mean that half the country voted for Bush - not just once but twice! It was totally obvious that the man was very mediocre from the beginning.



With Gore/Kerry/Edwards as opponents, it was a lack of options.
But on the bright side, it made indeoendants like me who are the majpority in the USA bring in Obama.
And while these guys haven't got a clue about job creation, and close down charter schools to continue getting Union cash during fund raisers, I am left looking at their successes, since the failures are generally very high.

Pre exisiting conditions are history, occupying Iraq and Afghanistan where our kids walk around like targets is soon over, and Bin Laden is dead.
So I am glad I was a worshipper of wealthy redistributors for these reasons.

But I look forward to a real freak show in 2014 where the whacko Liberals try and give more free stuff away for a vote, and the GOP crime family tries to get Witches, and whacko evangelicals elected.

Us common sense folks that work for a living will measure up the next liars.
Hopefully someone with no experience as that seems to be a great way to run foreign policy.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 6, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> Larry, I'm not sure what you take issue with....unless my comment about people being stupid wasn't clear. I mean that half the country voted for Bush - not just once but twice! It was totally obvious that the man was very mediocre from the beginning.



Right Nick- I had thought you meant people were stupid when they supported the war, which was totally based on lies from credible sources. Sorry I wasn't clear. 

The second vote for Bush is still beyond bizarre to me...though I must say that both Kerry and Gore were horrible political candidates.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 6, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's hard for outsiders to fully understand the sudden shock that our insular world experienced in 2001. Remember, it wasn't just what happened then, it was "what's next??"
> ...



Got no idea what you're asking, Adrian.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 6, 2014)

I like the consens here that people are duped. I would sign that in a heartbeat.

I am afraid that right now people are being duped as well concerning the US/EU position on Ukraine. In my view they triggered the events to a certain degree. This Banker at the helm in Kiev now is disasterous for the Ukraine but very much to the liking of the neo liberal agenda at play in Brussels. They will be drowned in debts and austerity. 

Rompuy made it clear that they legitimize a interim government where positions are held by Nazis. The EU will push to sign the EU Association Agreement with Ukraine before a new and by the people of Ukraine legitimized government is elected after 25th of May. 

This is wrong!

I think that tells me enough for the moment. The extremly pushy EU attitude and western propaganda maschine in full swing on all channels, Yatesnuk shaking hands with NATO chief Ramussen et al. 

There was and there is much more happening behind the curtains than people in the Ukraine ousting Yanukovych. I am afraid that their desire to get rid of him, was and still is used by other forces at play to swiftly implement their agenda in the Uraine.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 7, 2014)

Excellent and balanced view offering an important historical context. Contrary to the hysterical Barosso-Rompuy-Merkel-Ramussen push licking up to U.S. propaganda.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...n-kyiv-to-serve-the-interests-of-all-citizens

Warning! EU-Insider Joke:

I propose the actual EU Commissioner for Energy Guenther Oettinger to be send as a mediator between Ukraine and Russia.

We are all in good and capable hands. Explanation, the below video is NOT a fake, this did actually happen and is a reflection on the high level caliber of the dumping ground for politicos in Europe, nevertheless, they hold most important portfolios.

First 30 seconds are in German where Oettinger states that english is the language that we all need to be able to speak and understand today.

You couldn't make it up!


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2014)

Thank goodness Russia never engages in propaganda. Good lord- we'd have disinformation flying every which way.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 7, 2014)

Zerr is allwais a place vor humor. Wai not!


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2014)

:wink:


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## AC986 (Mar 7, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:


> adriancook @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 06 said:
> ...



What outsiders?


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2014)

Non residents of the U.S.


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## AC986 (Mar 7, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 07 said:


> Non residents of the U.S.



I think the people of the UK and Germany understand quite a few big and sudden shocks over the past 100 years or so quite well.


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## germancomponist (Mar 7, 2014)

Go to google and just listen to old and new interviews in which Putin comes to word!

Not even 5% of Germans have done that, because they are the prejudices instilled enjoyable. ...


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Mar 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Non residents of the U.S.
> ...



You're not getting me. I'm talking much more recent history and the biggest incident since Pearl Harbor, which wasn't even on the mainland. In Beirut,i n Israel, there were weekly/monthly incidents for a long time. On the U.S mainland, this sort of thing simply didn't happen. When I said "outsiders", I was talking about people who 9/11 had not directly happened to. That other places have experienced attacks is something I'm well aware of. There was no implied judgment. We were simply, naively unprepared.


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## germancomponist (Mar 8, 2014)

Who is Putin?


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## germancomponist (Mar 8, 2014)

And read this: http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-an ... ty/5370790

and this: http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-hit ... ne/5372454


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 8, 2014)

With all due respect - both articles are shallow, "little about everything" tryouts to dig a story where there is not much to be said. Currently at least.

Vivid Jewish community of 200,000? P-lease!! Ukraine`s Jewish diaspora were at least a million , when the failing USSR politics drew the country to poverty and made most of them flee wherever possible. USSR was one of the most Anti-Semitic countries out there, and Mr.P. trying his hardest to revive it - doesn`t really help.

----Edited---
Nazi collaborators? With Italy, Hungary, Japan and others on the list - Bandera is too small of an issue now - when Ukraine has such a crisis. If you want to go formal - his lifetime was`nt spent in racist clearings, if he took parts in any at all. He was a West Ukrainian leader for armed opposition against Poland, Soviet Union, and later Germany as well. At some point of the failing collaboration with Germans, he was captured by them as well, held in prison, released at some point, and lived up to 1959(!) in West Germany till have been killed by the KGB. 

I`ll repeat my Tyahnibok comments from the thread - officially he runs a Nationalist, anti-communist party which is not openly anti-Semitic, neither Faschist - so McCain and the others may sleep well at night. The youngsters with a thinned swastika on the shirts, may vote for "Svoboda" - but the symbol belongs to older formation, which was never in the parliament, and this Tyahnibok is out of it for more than a decade. The "Svoboda" party is much restrained and (at least) officially cleaner attempt to enter big politics, as Faschist propaganda is forbidden by the Ukrainian law. 

Everyone has his own past - in late 60-ties, then young Yanukovitch served two terms in prison for armed assault and robbery. "Mistakes of my youth" - as he called it during his presidency! 

--------------- 

Second "Young Nazis" picture shows some Ninja on the left with "I am Russian!" all over his shirt!? Oh My!!.....

Vandalizing the Memorials - nor could I spot those puny children and their nostalgic grandparents doing anything on the pic - nor do I think there is such need in those Memorials all over Europe - IMHO Russia had too many selfish interests conquering Eastern Europe to be called liberators. They have done it while destroying and terrorising their own people as well. Where to, do you think my grandfather came back from German labor? Straight to Russian working camp for the released!!

And once again - current overthrow of the corrupted, Moscow-proxy regime could never ever have been conducted by those Nationalists. A wide and strong opposition did it, which, as violence escalated, also included Yanukovitch own party in the parliament, which condemned him. 

One of the anti-Jewish actions I am aware of in the last few days, have happened in Crimea - sooo well guarded from those Nationalistic Ukrainian mobs!! Another one was in the eastern part of Ukraine as well

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jew ... s/1.577356



And for the desert - one of the first things new government did, is changing local governors, and among others, in Dniepropetrovsk it assigned the Jewish mullti-billionaire Igor Kolomyjsky - Oh, those nationalistic bastards!!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2014)

I guess one shouldn't be surprised at how slowly some people learn. We still have some people flying Confederate flags in the South! That was supposed to have been over 150 years ago.


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## germancomponist (Mar 8, 2014)

I can only repeat myself: It is all about money! It always goes only about money!

Our money system is not only shit, it will ruin the world!


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 8, 2014)

Fascists do hold four positions in Ukraine government, three ministerial plus the vice premier, and yes the latter is Tyahnibok.

See Social Democrat Walter Steinmeier here sitting at the same table with him. 

courtesy of ARD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/42dfimzam4zjq70/Screenshot 2014-03-09 04.40.54.png

Utterly disgusting to see this happening! German officials should refuse any consultations or meetings where this party and their representatives are involved! Period. It goes even further, Christian Democrat and MEP Elmar Brock has no problem meeting with Svoboda for political consultations. Now there is a surprise... not!

The right sector used the demos to escalate violence. They were instrumental for and succeeded with the ousting of Yanukovych and his puppets.

@Vizmusik

You continue to play down the fascist problem. There is not point in denying or attempting to tone down that fascists are in government. 

USA/EU has no problem legitimizing these people with this banker at the helm. Go figure.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 8, 2014)

George, I respect your position, but I wish my birth country would be treated with an objective views and not the ones imposed by propagandists.

If my posts look like I am trying to play down things - I am open to see the facts I bring - proved to be wrong, or at least their significance challenged.

For example, you suggest that Tyahnibok is a current vice-prеmier - which he is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government

Instead -you`ll find another "Batkivschina" minister, one from "Svoboda", and Vinnitsa mayor Groysman...... hm, great name for a vice-premier in pro-Nazi government!


Again, I am not trying to whiten any aggressive or anti-social believes those "Svoboda" people may hold - I am just amazed of the utter propaganda that tries to put things in such extremely unbalanced light.

And I still have both Jew and Ukrainian relatives in Kiev - so I do care beyond theoretic discussion.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 8, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of people not too fond of the Obama administration. That doesn't mean Canada can annex the US.
> ...



We don't want it....well, maybe the hockey team.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 8, 2014)

Viz,

You are right concernig VP, my fault, I mixed things up, thanks for clarifying!

So I think this here might be accurate: Svoboda head the defense, agriculture, and environment ministries. 

It is Svoboda party ideological chief Oleksandr Sych in deed who is deputy prime minister, well this doesn't make it any better don't you think? If I recall this correct for a change :wink: the general prosecutor is from Svoboda too.

Dmytro Yarosh is the head of Pravy Sektor and is deputy secretary for national security, how convenient a post for such a man! Geeze. Yatesnyuk is a right wing banker. So you have right wingers and fascists making up a significant part of the government at the moment.

These people do not belong into government, period. They thrive on nationalist and fascist sentiments. Just because they got a new make-up doesn't meant they changed their views. They are fascist and associate themselves with BNP in UK and NPD in Germany.

Btw. I respect your points, and I welcome that you have no intention to white wash this situation. 

Perhaps we can agree if i say that there is propaganda on both sides, the west ignores and belittles the fascist problem, while the east plays it up.

In either case, in my view, they do not belong in government positions.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 8, 2014)

and btw... these folks are now the ones supposed to be investigating on what orders the snipers started their killing spree? 

That is pretty much the same as Tepco fixing Fukushima.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks, George, I appreciate it. People are not black and white, so I guess now, watching the tanks riding into Eastern Ukraine, while the headlines searching both life on Mars and Ultra-Fascist mobs terrorising West Ukraine - we will eventually clear things up.


------Update--- 

Oh, forgot a nice one about this Yarosh you mentioned:

http://embassies.gov.il/kiev/NewsAndEve ... M.facebook

Its a Israeli embassy in Ukraine, describing a meeting between him as the right sector and Reuven Din El - Israely ambassador in Ukraine, during which Yarosh assured him that Nationalistic views they practice, do not include Anti-Semitic shades, and his group opposes any expressions of Xenophobia or hatred. 

Go figure!


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 9, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Sun Mar 09 said:


> ------Update---
> 
> Oh, forgot a nice one about this Yarosh you mentioned:
> 
> ...



Yeah right.... go figure! :lol: 

You know, I am not astonished that the US/EU are supporting groups like this in Ukraine, not a bit.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 9, 2014)

As for Reuven Dinel:

You refer to that here: 

http://www.jta.org/2014/03/07/news-...ssador-meets-with-ukrainian-ultra-nationalist

Because of the cooperative nature of Israel and Ukraine in all matter of military and intelligence, Israel appointed Reuven Dinel, a former Mossad agent, as the ambassador to Ukraine. 

Dinel was spying in Russia during the 90s, and became a declared persona non grata. Turkmenistan refused to grant diplomatic status to this chap. 

Not so the Ukraine... go figure! :lol:


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 9, 2014)

http://www.haaretz.com/news/turkmenistan-snubs-former-mossad-agent-as-israel-envoy-1.263929


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 9, 2014)

Well - who could better tell an anti-Semit than ex-Mossad ?


Wow - I just came across this Condoleezza Rice article in Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/condoleezza-rice-will-america-heed-the-wake-up-call-of-ukraine/2014/03/07/cf087f74-a630-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html)

Wish she would go out publicly with the first paragraph - years ago. Of course we knew this, but such confirmation is important. I`ll allow myself to cite it just in case someone doesn`t feel like reading it all:

"“Meet Viktor Yanu­kovych, who is running for the presidency of Ukraine.” Vladimir Putin and I were standing in his office at the presidential dacha in late 2004 when Yanu­kovych suddenly appeared from a back room. Putin wanted me to get the point. He’s my man, Ukraine is ours — and don’t forget it....."


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 9, 2014)

Condee.... :lol: 



> Our policies toward Iraq simply are to protect the region and to protect Iraq's people and neighbors. _Condoleezza Rice_



From your article:


> If it is not heeded, dictators and extremists across the globe will be emboldened.



Good Lord! I guess she knows what she talks about, they are specialists in empowering extremists and dictators around the globe,


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 9, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Sun Mar 09 said:


> Well - who could better tell an anti-Semit than ex-Mossad ?



It is obvious that he serves different masters and interests! It would be ridiculous to claim Yarosh to be a moderate right wing because Dinel had a chat with him, this is propaganda par excellence and just shows how far reaching the problem really is imho, historically as well as to date.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 9, 2014)

Meet Dmytro Yarosh... 

No comment :!:


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 9, 2014)

I wasn`t telling Yarosh is moderate cause he spoke with the ambassador (btw - what other interest the later could serve than Jewish/Israely?) - I was telling that even the presence of such ultra-right (and ultra funny video btw  in current situation with government change - does not mean there are pogroms and mobs hitting the street.

And that what is constantly being "reported" by the Russian TV brainwashing maschine. That is a fabricated reason for Mr.P. to military invade Ukraine. 

Hodorkovsky - lately released oligarh was just in Kiev, and he said that there are no more nationalists than in Moscow or Saint-Petersburg.

In Crimea, on the contrary, things starting to look bad....


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 9, 2014)

I do not think a progrome is required to understand the who is who in the selfproclaimed Ukraine proxy government.


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## peksi (Mar 10, 2014)

germancomponist @ Sun Mar 09 said:


> I can only repeat myself: It is all about money! It always goes only about money!
> 
> Our money system is not only shit, it will ruin the world!



can agree with that 100%. 

getting older i've started lose my invisible polaroid glasses and seeing forest from the trees. this world is run by small, broken people mostly fueled by greed which does not care about anything human. 

there are billions of money just parked in cayman banks while others die of tragic deaths. greed only cares for the stock markets to go up. greed will drive our climate broken, overpopulate the earth, fuel the fire of mindless consumption and only learn when it is too late.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 10, 2014)

Another perspective:

ENP (European Neighbourhood Policy) and today ENI (EN Instrument) are the tools of European expansion politics since 2003. While ENP increased funding in 2011 too 7 billion, the ENI effective from 2014 on is funded with 15,4 billion. 

http://www.enpi-info.eu/countryeast.php?country=62

Fact is that European voters were never asked to vote for or against such expansionist politics, they simply have no say on the matter.

It is them who are in charge and responsible for the whole operation and budget:

http://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/who/whoswho/director_general_en.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/fule/index_en.htm

Now here is the crux, I bet my bottom dollar that not even one in tenthousand citizens would have ever heard about them in European countries.

It is this enormous level of democratic deficit in EU. The disconnect is immense, and people are just the meat on the bone of the social engineering experiment of europhile technocrates.

Just sayin.... food for thought perhaps.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 10, 2014)

peksi @ Mon Mar 10 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun Mar 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I can only repeat myself: It is all about money! It always goes only about money!
> ...



According to the latest BIS quarterly review, hundredthousandmillion dollar, or 100 billion, of debt are out there, in 2007 it was 70 billion.

...tic tac tic tac tic...

Now where are all those brillliant hackers... go find the button... PUSH RESET! :twisted:


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## AR (Mar 10, 2014)

A friend of mine posted something very good...

I don't have a problem with THE Russian!

THE Russian never spied on me.
HE never tried to serve GENETICALLY manipulated food on my table.
THE Russian never attacked me or my friends with drones while being in a foreign country.
THE Russian never tortured somebody in the name of freedom.
THE Russian does not make me be part of the "War against terror" by involving soldiers in crime against international law.

Period.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 10, 2014)

AR @ Mon Mar 10 said:


> A friend of mine posted something very good...
> 
> I don't have a problem with THE Russian!
> 
> ...



THE Russian has been spying on everyone he could for many years
THE Russian has enough problems growing enough food for his citizens
I agree about drones.
THE Russian never tortured?? Good lord, that's a wild view. See "Beria".
THE Russian is presently attempting to violate International law as to Ukraine, and Russia had broken international law dozens of time, as has America.

Overall, I'd say your friend is naive or uninformed, heterosexual and not Jewish.


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## AR (Mar 10, 2014)

Well, i've been to both countries and both are f***ed up. Anyways I don't care, but yes you're right he is probably (naive), homophobic and not Jewish.


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## Vlzmusic (Mar 10, 2014)

There is a tiny difference - when the global community (virtually none of the recent history interventions - Iraq, Libya etc. was done solely by US and at her own discretion - there is always coalition) does intervene in another country, it tries to change it and leave it.

When Russia intervenes - it wants it to be a part of Russia - and gives Russian passports to local people even prior to the intervention itself, so there will be more "Russians" to save.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 10, 2014)

ROFLMAO :lol: You couldn't make it up, really! :lol: 

Check out this piece from the European Muppet show:
_
European Parliament resolution of 13 December 2012 on the situation in Ukraine:_


> 8. Is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada; recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party;



Source: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2012-0507+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 12, 2014)

....and here the american instruments of neighborhood policies, ahem, I mean regime change.:

Template Revolutions: Marketing U.S. Regime Change in Eastern Europe.

http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=17446708&AN=35343982&h=Kr5fPbKK8q03rRltqsVvdd7eI7s4nM0BAcJjPmLGZrtX2gxkmURvXL7ROWN9qd%2fs5eepuhC5Ds0MysDvfhiypA%3d%3d&crl=c


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 12, 2014)

See similiarities? Sounds all too familiar with what's hapening now? 

Yeah well, but this was 2008....

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200809--2.htm


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 30, 2014)

Its 4 am at my place, and I am after watching 3 and a half long, live talk show "Shuster Live" which runs on Ukranian TV every Friday, featuring government representatives, politics, known figures and military representatives. Here is the link in case you know Russian and Ukranian (Yes, Ukranians - what a surprise, speak and communicate in both languages, and the host is a non-Ukranian jurnalist, so he speaks only Russian)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV3Y3axGFE8

This is from last Friday, and mostly (specially second part) is a discussion between president`s representatives, some military (including phone calls to Ukranian soldiers which were surrounded by Russian heavy armory, and god knows if they still alive today, two days later.) There was some German journalist on skype as well, which was with some surrounded battalions and escaped through butchery battlefield.

Politics, generals, activists - people are in shock. They argue and criticize one another, but mostly they are in shock.

Oh, and there was (of course!!!) remainder of the Svoboda party - which you guys loved to discuss so much this Spring. They apparently donated a few bucks to buy some machine guns and clothes to soldiers, which were about to be sent to the front with pistols(!) 

Now - my dear chaps. I know you meant good by opposing "fascism" and "nazism", stories of which were so cleverly offered by some people. Now the tanks, rockets and artillery speak for themselves.

I know there is not much to be done about it - funny, but it was Friday as well, I opened my tv, which I do rarely these days, and there was Putin ( as usual) saying in a meeting with some young teachers at some festival: - " I hope everyone in the world remembers we are one of the main nuclear countries. By the way we are currently expanding and enhancing our nuclear system..."

Gosh - I miss those Gorbachev-Reagan days now...


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

Vlzmusic - thanks for your report from the inside. Sounds horrific. Most seem agreed that Putin is calling the world's bluff, knowing how militarily strong Russia are that they won't stomach a fight. They got away with it in Crimea after all. Now I see the EU are saying "don't count on it ". I don't know what happens next, but it doesn't look good, does it?


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 31, 2014)

For both sides. Funerals and broken lives both for the Ukranians killed in action, for Russian youngsters in the army, as even their families do not know who is being sent to Ukraine and when, and the citizens of the eastern cities who got under fire from both sides.

Currently its about the city of Mariupol, as there are indications, that it will be besieged and overtaken this week. People in the city are digging defense lines.

Sounds pretty crazy and original way to spend your weekend in 2014, huh ? - "Honey, the dinner is getting cold." - " Oh, yeah pumpkin, we are just finishing the last trench with the guys here".


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2014)

Vlzmusic @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Sounds pretty crazy and original way to spend your weekend in 2014, huh ? - "Honey, the dinner is getting cold." - " Oh, yeah pumpkin, we are just finishing the last trench with the guys here".



You should invite Catherine Ashton over for dinner. I guess people like that must give you loads of confidence about the future right?


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

Jeepers. I'm guessing here, but by the recent EU rhetoric I can see a solid line established before a mass evacuation is ordered in the east. Then the big guns roll in.

(EDIT - this assuming that the next round of sanctions achieves nothing).


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Jeepers. I'm guessing here, but by the recent EU rhetoric I can see a solid line established before a mass evacuation is ordered in the east. Then the big guns roll in.



I'm sadly old enough to remember when they went into Hungary in 56 and then Czechoslovakia in 67. Nothing new here. I think those dates are near enough anyway.

Russia likes buffers. It's not so much about keeping people in, but keeping people out. WWII still has that effect on their psyche.

China's the same. Great Wall mentality. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't suit everyone.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

(Er, just to be clear, I meant that Ukraine would evacuate their own citizens for their own safety before an assault on the east, with EU / NATO backing).


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