# Incorporating live Instruments while writing in larger templates



## kenose (May 23, 2019)

I'm curious what people's workflows are like for recording live performances (specifically guitar) while working on projects inside of a larger template with lots of VIs. I tend to use guitar as a writing and sound design tool quite a bit, and the smallest buffer I can run my template at is 128. Unfortunately, this results in ~8ms roundtrip latency, which is extremely aggravating when tracking tighter guitar parts. 

This isn't as much of an issue when guitar parts are more "planned out", I will just record them extremely tightly in a second session and then bring them into the main working session. However, for more spontaneous writing it tends to be a bit of a brick wall. The latency makes everything feel awkward and breaks the immersion, and as a result I tend avoid going down that route since it'll just end with being annoyed! 

I suppose one solution is to have the VI template going out into a separate PT rig, and use that for tracking in live parts. This seems like the most organized way to deal with live audio tracks, with the downside that they're isolated from the main project.

Another is to use an external modeler such as the Kemper or Axe FX, and monitor the output directly. I generally use software amp modelers for easy recall/reamping, but I suppose you can rig something up to capture DIs so there's still flexibility. 

How are you guys handling this? Would be interested to hear experiences with different setups!


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## Yury Tikhomirov (May 24, 2019)

Presonus Studio One has a solution for it with its zero-latency software based monitoring. I used to have some amp sim guitar pedals for that task in the past. But sold them after I realized that I like to record clean guitar signal with modelling plug-ins (S-Gear, Mercuriall are my favs). And S1 ZL monitoring allows that (you don’t need to have any special interface) - technically speaking it is separate virtual bus that they have for monitoring with separate buffer apart from the main buffer settings. It works on heavy VI too, and main project buffer might be 512 or 1024, while still any VI in ZL mode can be playable in real-time.


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## kenose (May 24, 2019)

Yury Tikhomirov said:


> Presonus Studio One has a solution for it with its zero-latency software based monitoring. I used to have some amp sim guitar pedals for that task in the past. But sold them after I realized that I like to record clean guitar signal with modelling plug-ins (S-Gear, Mercuriall are my favs). And S1 ZL monitoring allows that (you don’t need to have any special interface) - technically speaking it is separate virtual bus that they have for monitoring with separate buffer apart from the main buffer settings. It works on heavy VI too, and main project buffer might be 512 or 1024, while still any VI in ZL mode can be playable in real-time.


That sounds pretty neat! A pity I'm on Cubase, I wish more DAWs would offer similar control over the buffers. I know most DAWs have separate buffers for playback/record-enabled tracks, and everything is automatic. It seems like it would be an obvious (and useful!) feature to have a little control on a per-track basis like you're describing in Studio One. 

If I could go higher than 4 buffers in VEPro I happily would, I rarely rely on playing in orchestral parts so having massive latency on the VIs in the template doesn't bother me at all.


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## Henu (May 24, 2019)

I have two different projects (after the demo phase) for finals, "arr" and "mix". 

The "arr" is all the finalized VST arrangements and all the recorded instruments ranging from percussion to accordions and guitars and back. Only the VST instruments which are actually in use are running and everything else is disabled or deleted. That leaves me plenty of processing power for the live recordings. I also don't have a single plugin running when recording except for electric guitars for obvious reasons. 

After I've arranged and recorded everything, I edit the live recordings to the shape I want them to be in the mix (e.g. autotuning, possible quantizing etc.), reset all the channel volume and pan settings and export everything to the "mix"- project and start mixing. This has been my workflow for years and it always fits my needs. 

Also, 8ms latency should be completely acceptable if you ask me. In fact, unless you're running some seriously expensive stuff, it's not easy to go under 6 anyway.


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## Per Boysen (May 24, 2019)

I use audio interfaces that allow a decent sounding (amp-fx-modelling) direct monitoring output of your instruments. Doing a lot of DI guitars, electric cello and Chapman Stick this way. Got an Apollo Twin USB as the main interface but also a Fractal Audio AxeFx2 connected by SPDIF to the Apollo. Sometimes I have used Henu's method as well.


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## Henu (May 24, 2019)

Per Boysen said:


> Chapman Stick



Total hails for that! I've always wanted one, but feel like it would be just an expensive toy for my uses that I haven't got one. Maybe some day when the kids have left the home, the retired me will buy one and bang the crap out of it for the rest of my days. :D


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## kenose (May 24, 2019)

Henu said:


> I have two different projects (after the demo phase) for finals, "arr" and "mix".
> 
> The "arr" is all the finalized VST arrangements and all the recorded instruments ranging from percussion to accordions and guitars and back. Only the VST instruments which are actually in use are running and everything else is disabled or deleted. That leaves me plenty of processing power for the live recordings. I also don't have a single plugin running when recording except for electric guitars for obvious reasons.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that is more or less my workflow right now. It gets the job done, and in many cases it is definitely the right way to go. Having everything in an isolated project for tracking definitely helps with focus for getting the final takes.

Re: 8ms, I think in most cases it is acceptable, but for me, it is simply too noticeable for guitars. Maybe for playing in a few simple chords, but for any more complicated or rhythmic parts I find it a bit too loose. Cubase reports a roundtrip of 4.7ms at 32buffer which is usually what I would track guitars at. 



Per Boysen said:


> I use audio interfaces that allow a decent sounding (amp-fx-modelling) direct monitoring output of your instruments. Doing a lot of DI guitars, electric cello and Chapman Stick this way. Got an Apollo Twin USB as the main interface but also a Fractal Audio AxeFx2 connected by SPDIF to the Apollo. Sometimes I have used Henu's method as well.


This is definitely the direction I'm leaning, do you generally just commit to the AxeFX tone or do you have a configuration to record DIs at the same time?


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## Per Boysen (May 24, 2019)

kenose said:


> This is definitely the direction I'm leaning, do you generally just commit to the AxeFX tone or do you have a configuration to record DIs at the same time?


The AxeFX gets the job done for me. I especially like it for the big number of MIDI controllable effects it offers. So I keep a MIDI pedalboard to set up my own "palettes". The one Fractal makes doesn't seem so tweakable, that's why I use the Gordius Little Giant 2... and totally love that setup. However, for clean strat or tele stuff I plug into the Apollo and tweak effects in the DAW. But for "playing-the-pedalboard" the AxeFX is great because you can go havoc and still have a total recall option of eventual blissful madness.

edit:
Oh, you asked about the tone... I forgot to answer that. Yes, I guess I commit to the AxeFx tone. It's just that I have been so used to the Axe always sounding as I once did set it up to sound like. Below is an example of clean and overdriven sounds plus some ways to perform that I really don't know how to achieve with other gear. Like closing the feedback loop of a delay while changing its speed. Or freezing a sound while playing over it. Or simply loop a couple of bars and then speed it into double-tempo one octave up.... while keeping on playing. In this example, I'm playing the Stick and that's another reason I like the AxeFx: it allows you to set up two parallel rigs (the Stick sends the two six strings groups to two different outputs).


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## kenose (May 25, 2019)

Awesome Per, thanks for the info! I did some more research and it seems like you can easily record the dry signal simultaneously with the amped signal using the AxeFX II, so I will probably pick one up sometime soon. Thanks for the help guys!


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