# Cheapest route to trying Logic?



## easyrider (Nov 4, 2021)

I’m currently on a 5950x windows 10 and Studio one but I’m interested in giving Logic a go. The Presonus and Fender merger worries me a bit….plus I’ve always wanted to dabble with VEP.

Would a refurb M1 Mac mini 8GB 256GB be enough to run Logic as use my 5950x as a slave using VEP?

As my PC has everything all installed sample wise I don’t have to change anything on it.

Just hook up the Mac Mini direct over lan….


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## khollister (Nov 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’m currently on a 5950x windows 10 and Studio one but I’m interested in giving Logic a go. The Presonus and Fender merger worries me a bit….plus I’ve always wanted to dabble with VEP.
> 
> Would a refurb M1 Mac mini 8GB 256GB be enough to run Logic as use my 5950x as a slave using VEP?
> 
> ...


Assuming all of the synths/samples are in VEP on the PC, 8GB should work. However 256GB might get a little tight if you plan to install all of the Logic content. I would think an older Intel Mac mini should be even cheaper. 

You might also consider an M1 MacBook Air. Not that much more expensive and a great little general purpose laptop you could use after the Logic experiment.


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## easyrider (Nov 4, 2021)

khollister said:


> Assuming all of the synths/samples are in VEP on the PC, 8GB should work. However 256GB might get a little tight if you plan to install all of the Logic content. I would think an older Intel Mac mini should be even cheaper.
> 
> You might also consider an M1 MacBook Air. Not that much more expensive and a great little general purpose laptop you could use after the Logic experiment.


Would 512GB be sufficient ? Cheers


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## khollister (Nov 5, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Would 512GB be sufficient ? Cheers


yup


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 5, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’m interested in giving Logic a go


I new you'd cave


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## khollister (Nov 5, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I new you'd cave


I was trying to take the high road here ...


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## jbuhler (Nov 5, 2021)

You can install the Logic additional content on an external disk. But 256GB still not a lot of room for the boot drive.


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## easyrider (Nov 5, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I new you'd cave


The perception around his is that I am some king of PC evangelist…😂

This couldn't be further from the truth….I love my IPad to bits….

I‘m open to learning new things….and rather than using vep with windows I thought I would use it with MAC and windows and have a play with Logic…

I may love it…I may hate it but it’s the journey not the destination that’s meaningful. 👍


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 5, 2021)

easyrider said:


> The perception around his is that I am some king of PC evangelist…😂


That's definitely my perception.

Anyways, I'll be curious to hear your thoughts.


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## BassClef (Nov 5, 2021)

I'm a Logic user... still running a 7 year old iMac... with ONLY ONE internal drive... a 256GB SSD!


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## easyrider (Nov 5, 2021)

Can the minis be upgraded ?


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## khollister (Nov 6, 2021)

easyrider said:


> An the minis be upgraded ?


Not the M1 versions


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

khollister said:


> Not the M1 versions


Cheers…


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## babylonwaves (Nov 6, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> You can install the Logic additional content on an external disk. But 256GB still not a lot of room for the boot drive.


I had a 256MB boot drive until last year and I didn't have an issue related to missing space. Even though I had about 250 Audio Units installed and 4 different DAWs. It takes a little more house keeping but it can be done.


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

3DC said:


> I see your GAS level is pretty high.
> One option would be to wait just a bit longer and see what future brings. I am sure S1 will do just fine with this merger. And by that time you can save for proper switch to Apple M1 Max platform.
> 
> Just a suggestion.


If I stick with S1 I stay on windows…I’m just curious about VEP and trying Logic….I don’t want this to cost me a load of money. And if using VEP I doubt I need the M1 Max?

The Mac mini seems to be ideal as it’s relatively cheap and small enough to hide on my desk.


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## dcoscina (Nov 6, 2021)

easyrider said:


> If I stick with S1 I stay on windows…I’m just curious about VEP and trying Logic….I don’t want this to cost me a load of money. And if using VEP I doubt I need the M1 Max?
> 
> The Mac mini seems to be ideal as it’s relatively cheap and small enough to hide on my desk.


Curious- what things about S1 do you find wanting? Let’s assume there won’t be any huge issues with it after this Fender thing..
I have Logic but honestly find S1 to be more helpful for orchestral composing.. between the arrange window and the Macros, I find it much easier to move around. For song or electronic genres I do get into Logic a bit more. Obviously this is totally personal as I know tons of people who compose in LPX.. I have just found Cubase initially and now S1 to be more attuned to writing orchestra music on..


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## ism (Nov 6, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’m currently on a 5950x windows 10 and Studio one but I’m interested in giving Logic a go. The Presonus and Fender merger worries me a bit….plus I’ve always wanted to dabble with VEP.
> 
> Would a refurb M1 Mac mini 8GB 256GB be enough to run Logic as use my 5950x as a slave using VEP?
> 
> ...


Easily, I should think. Until earlier this year I got by just fine with a 8G on a 2014 Mac. Obviously I wasn't running massive templates. And it did involve some freezing and (especially) purging.

So an m1 with your samples loaded via VEP - I can't any problem at all with that.


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Curious- what things about S1 do you find wanting? Let’s assume there won’t be any huge issues with it after this Fender thing..
> I have Logic but honestly find S1 to be more helpful for orchestral composing.. between the arrange window and the Macros, I find it much easier to move around. For song or electronic genres I do get into Logic a bit more. Obviously this is totally personal as I know tons of people who compose in LPX.. I have just found Cubase initially and now S1 to be more attuned to writing orchestra music on..


Nothing I love Studio one….but I figured if having a dabble with VEP on my 5950x and using that as slave…I would have a dabble at Logic…I really wish S1 had a dedicated Video Track. That is a fundamental need imo….and with the Fender take over I’m pretty sure orchestration developments will be slowed down in favour of putting fender amps in S1 , Fender play and focusing on live performance, etc…


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## dcoscina (Nov 6, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Nothing I love Studio one….but I figured if having a dabble with VEP on my 5950x and using that as slave…I would have a dabble at Logic…I really wish S1 had a dedicated Video Track. That is a fundamental need imo….and with the Fender take over I’m pretty sure orchestration developments will be slowed down in favour of putting fender amps in S1 , Fender play and focusing on live performance, etc…


I wouldn’t get too worried just yet about the impact or influence of Fender on software apps like S1. We are more likely to see changes to Presonus hardware long before Studio One changes.


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

3DC said:


> You can use Fairlight in DaVinci Resolve for this. Its free and relatively easy to integrate with any DAW pipeline. I use it with Cubase Pro and FL Studio.


How ?


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## jbuhler (Nov 6, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Curious- what things about S1 do you find wanting? Let’s assume there won’t be any huge issues with it after this Fender thing..
> I have Logic but honestly find S1 to be more helpful for orchestral composing.. between the arrange window and the Macros, I find it much easier to move around. For song or electronic genres I do get into Logic a bit more. Obviously this is totally personal as I know tons of people who compose in LPX.. I have just found Cubase initially and now S1 to be more attuned to writing orchestra music on..


I'm interested to hear this as I pretty much left S1 at version 4 for Logic because I had more and more issues as the number of instruments I wanted to use grew. There are many things I miss about S1 in Logic though.


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## dcoscina (Nov 6, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm interested to hear this as I pretty much left S1 at version 4 for Logic because I had more and more issues as the number of instruments I wanted to use grew. There are many things I miss about S1 in Logic though.


For me, I find the arrange page layout and tools much more conducive for orchestral writing. I never liked the tools or the way LPX deals with midi events. Keep in mind I used DP for many years and found that the best for moving sections around. Logic to me is more "play in real-time track by track". These days, I prefer to program most of my lines in and then tweak. I love the macros in Studio One including the doubling intervals, duration changes, etc. Additionally, I like the lanes of CCs, not that weird single MIDI editor with those funky horizontal lines for adjusting velocity... I remember when LPX had something like that (I know Notator 3.1 SL sure did!). Obviously, Logic's setup doesn't hinder tons of professionals so, as I said, this is just very personal. 

I also love that I can save presets to each plug in so I have my go-to presets ready to drag into the arrange window. I tried Studio One when it first landed years ago and the only reason I abandoned it for Cubase was that it didn't have notation editing, which it does now (thanks to Notion, which I also have used since 2005). 

That's my 2 cents. Llke Dalton from Roadhouse said, "opinions vary"

Disclaimer- this is coming from a dude who composes mostly in StaffPad or Dorico these days.. but when I do work in a DAW, I'm opening S1 most of the time


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## jbuhler (Nov 6, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> For me, I find the arrange page layout and tools much more conducive for orchestral writing. I never liked the tools or the way LPX deals with midi events. Keep in mind I used DP for many years and found that the best for moving sections around. Logic to me is more "play in real-time track by track". These days, I prefer to program most of my lines in and then tweak. I love the macros in Studio One including the doubling intervals, duration changes, etc. Additionally, I like the lanes of CCs, not that weird single MIDI editor with those funky horizontal lines for adjusting velocity... I remember when LPX had something like that (I know Notator 3.1 SL sure did!). Obviously, Logic's setup doesn't hinder tons of professionals so, as I said, this is just very personal.
> 
> I also love that I can save presets to each plug in so I have my go-to presets ready to drag into the arrange window. I tried Studio One when it first landed years ago and the only reason I abandoned it for Cubase was that it didn't have notation editing, which it does now (thanks to Notion, which I also have used since 2005).
> 
> ...


I'm very interested in hearing the experiences of those working with orchestral music with large track counts, since I'm hoping for enough improvements to lure me back. There's lots to love about S1.

I'm especially fond of the scratchpad or whatever they call it in S1, and with the arrangement tools you can move chunks around so easily—both within the active piece and also from scratchpad to the active piece. There are some things about it that are just so slick! I don't find Logic a good environment for sketching and working on variants. The multiple CC lanes of S1 are also very nice, though as of version 4 it was not as well implemented as I would like. But I do dislike Logic's way of handling automation in the piano roll. 

Maybe version 5 improved S1. S1 version 4 didn't yet have articulations sets/expression maps and that was a pain, and one of the big draws of Logic for me. I know version 5 now has articulation management. But it doesn't seem like version 5 has yet addressed some of the other issues with projects with large track counts. And then there is the stupid save thing, where S1 brings all work to a halt for autosave. I don't want to not have autosave on, but I also don't want to be interrupted for 30 seconds or more waiting for the program to do its business. From my reading about it, it doesn't seem like version 1 offers any improvement on this. Granted, I get the spinning beachball enough in Logic (even with a 2020 i9 and 128GB of RAM) that there are issues with it too, but it's nowhere near as disruptive as S1 autosave. 

In any case, it was mostly that once I got over 100 tracks that I started having real issues in terms of workflow. Also with long complicated projects, I had several times where a project became corrupt and I had to rebuild it, which was not trivial. Each time took almost a day. (Logic has an irritating tendency to forget my articulation set assignments, so it is not without these kind of flaws either.) I also find many of the features of S1 are not well documented, the manual is shit even by the bad standards of software, and support is inconsistent ever since Presonus changed their support site, so if you run into an issue, you have to rely on forum answers, and the base of users is comparatively small. 

I didn't upgrade to version 5 yet, but will have to once I change systems since version 4 will no longer run on the new system and I still have some old projects that I need to go back to and/or finish up. When I upgrade, I'll try S1 again.


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## dcoscina (Nov 6, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm very interested in hearing the experiences of those working with orchestral music with large track counts, since I'm hoping for enough improvements to lure me back. There's lots to love about S1.
> 
> I'm especially fond of the scratchpad or whatever they call it in S1, and with the arrangement tools you can move chunks around so easily—both within the active piece and also from scratchpad to the active piece. There are some things about it that are just so slick! I don't find Logic a good environment for sketching and working on variants. The multiple CC lanes of S1 are also very nice, though as of version 4 it was not as well implemented as I would like. But I do dislike Logic's way of handling automation in the piano roll.
> 
> ...


I never get that many tracks. I use Keyswitches and Expression maps. So I cannot verify whether S1 is good for large templates.


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## jbuhler (Nov 6, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I never get that many tracks. I use Keyswitches and Expression maps. So I cannot verify whether S1 is good for large templates.


I do too, so it's a bit comical and almost certainly excessive. My current project has 164 tracks. That's SSO augmented with a battery of percussion, quite a lot of additional brass, and three additional string libraries.


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

3DC said:


> There are myriad ways you can use Fairlight in combination with S1. Its not a straight pipeline like in Cubase for example.
> 
> Fairlight is literally a DAW in DaVinci Resolve video editor. First you would have to import your video in Davinci Resolve, create a timeline and then use S1 or Fairlight for scoring. Davinci Resolve is very good in exporting precise video time markers.
> 
> ...


What are the advantages of using fairlight with Cubase? 

Why not just use the Cubase video track?


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## khollister (Nov 6, 2021)

I tried to like S1, but left for 2 main reasons:

1) I could not get PipelineXT to correctly calculate the delay compensation for external effects. It wasn't even close to being correct. Some research showed I was not the only person having issues and there was no success on getting it to work if it was broken. It either worked or it didn't.

2) The double buffer system is flawed in my opinion since the use of it is hardwired to disabling higher latency plugins, unlike Logic or cubase where the low latency option is independent of the lower record-armed track buffer (e.g. ASIO Guard in Cubase). As a result, I lost the option of using certain UAD plugins even in sends.

Its track count performance also lagged behind either Logic or Cubase on Intel and still behind Logic on M1 even with the native version of S1.

There were some nice UI features and some design choices I thought were really confusing. I also wasn't crazy about the color scheme.

As an Opcode user before the Gibson buyout, I would be extremely leery of the Fender thing as well.


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

khollister said:


> I tried to like S1, but left for 2 main reasons:
> 
> 1) I could not get PipelineXT to correctly calculate the delay compensation for external effects. It wasn't even close to being correct. Some research showed I was not the only person having issues and there was no success on getting it to work if it was broken. It either worked or it didn't.


I recently setup a Yamaha SPX 990 external affects processor with Pipeline XT along without issue.


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## khollister (Nov 6, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I recently setup a Yamaha SPX 990 external affects processor with Pipeline XT along without issue.


Yeah it seems to be hit or miss and I gave up trying to find a reason why mine was broken. Presonus support was no help either.

Whatever - I'm happy with Logic (or Cubase when that finally goes native) so I'm not losing sleep over it.


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

khollister said:


> Yeah it seems to be hit or miss and I gave up trying to find a reason why mine was broken. Presonus support was no help either.
> 
> Whatever - I'm happy with Logic (or Cubase when that finally goes native) so I'm not losing sleep over it.


If you had to choose between Logic and Cubase which would it be ?


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## khollister (Nov 6, 2021)

easyrider said:


> If you had to choose between Logic and Cubase which would it be ?


Since Logic is already M1 native, I have used it since version 8 or 9 and know it well, it screams on my M1 and they have recently fixed the PDC issues with auxes and sidechaining, Logic is my primary DAW.

That said, there are things I like about Cubase - Control Room, nested folders, adjusting clip gain directly in track region with handles, it's cross platform if I ever need/want to jump ship, etc.

On the down side, the Cubase Inspector is kind of a mess from a UI standpoint (lots of data, too many clicks to access it all), the inline mixer pane sucks (sends and inserts are different views from fader/panner & meter), the CPU meter isn't very helpful, the GUI isn't as laptop friendly and the learning curve is steeper than Logic.

In your case, since you are heavily invested in Windows/AMD (both technically and emotionally), I was surprised you wanted to mess with VEP & Logic on the very platform you have been trash talking in several threads lately. Of course the cost is higher barring the occasional sale. I would either grab the demo or buy one of the lower tier versions to try it out and see how you get on with the workflow.

When it comes down to functionality (what as opposed to how you do things), Cubase is probably the most fully featured DAW.

The VEP workflow is another issue. While there are some advantages for folks who use large templates, I always found it tiresome to use in the ad hoc manner that I work in. And there is more latency. And cost. 

As much as the Mac guys here might enjoy you buying a Mac, I honestly don't know why you just don't give Cubase a try if the Fender thing scares the shit out of you (it would me if I was on S1).


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

khollister said:


> Since Logic is already M1 native, I have used it since version 8 or 9 and know it well, it screams on my M1 and they have recently fixed the PDC issues with auxes and sidechaining, Logic is my primary DAW.
> 
> That said, there are things I like about Cubase - Control Room, nested folders, adjusting clip gain directly in track region with handles, it's cross platform if I ever need/want to jump ship, etc.
> 
> On the down side, the Cubase Inspector is kind of a mess from a UI standpoint (lots of data, too many clicks to access it all), the inline mixer pane sucks (sends and inserts are different views from fader/panner & meter), the CPU meter isn't very helpful, the GUI isn't as laptop friendly and the learning curve is steeper than Logic.


Thanks for the info.



khollister said:


> In your case, since you are heavily invested in Windows/AMD (both technically and emotionally), I was surprised you wanted to mess with VEP & Logic on the very platform you have been trash talking in several threads lately.


I dont have any issue with the Apple platform. But Before the M1 came along the hardware cost for a Mac was just silly IMHO....When you factor in the Hardware cost for a Faster PC. Thats was my point.



khollister said:


> Of course the cost is higher barring the occasional sale. I would either grab the demo or buy one of the lower tier versions to try it out and see how you get on with the workflow.
> 
> When it comes down to functionality (what as opposed to how you do things), Cubase is probably the most fully featured DAW.


I can get the Apple Pro Apps bundle for £162

*Final Cut Pro
Logic Pro
Motion
Compressor
MainStage*

I thought whack this on a refurb M1 mini and harness the power of my 5950x Rig.



khollister said:


> The VEP workflow is another issue. While there are some advantages for folks who use large templates, I always found it tiresome to use in the ad hoc manner that I work in. And there is more latency. And cost.


Thanks for the insight. I'm more intrigued on VEP tbh....I guess I have been without it so I may download the demo and scratch that itch first. 


khollister said:


> As much as the Mac guys here might enjoy you buying a Mac, I honestly don't know why you just don't give Cubase a try if the Fender thing scares the shit out of you (it would me if I was on S1).


I'm being told that I should not worry about the Fender and S1 thing...But I just can't help it...I suppose Steinberg survived being bought by Yamaha....so who knows....

Another reason for me wanting to dabble with OSX is that I'm going into Supply Teaching, delivering Media and Content creation...the last place I worked for 15 years teaching Creative Media Production and Sound design was windows.

I had a job interview for a Music Teacher last week and the Music Department all had Macs in it...So I think I need to at least learn some aspect of OSX...

I didn't take the job due to various reasons but If im going into schools and colleges in the future on an ad hoc basis I would feel more confident.


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## khollister (Nov 6, 2021)

All good points. One big factor in favor of Logic recently is the spatial audio/Atmos capability in Logic. I think you need Nuendo for that - even more money. Logic is "slicker" than Cubase IMHO. In that sense it is more like S1. Cubase really does need a UI make-over.

Steinberg was purchased by a music division of Yamaha that already had a technology footprint in synthesizers and other software/firmware based products. They understood what they were getting into and the product cycle/cash flow of that type of industry. In comparison Fender is pretty low tech (exactly like Gibson was when they bought Opcode and Cakewalk). Of course the CEO of Gibson was an idiot, so there's that. 

I think it largely depends on why Fender bought Presonus - were they wanting to expand into recording HW and S1 just came along for the ride, or was that a key part of the deal? Time will tell.


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 6, 2021)

You can order any Apple Silicon Mac, grab the Logic 90 days trial and play with it for 14 days without anything to lose, since you can return it no questions asked.

I would recommend at least 512gb for storage.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 6, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> You can order any Apple Silicon Mac, grab the Logic 90 days trial and play with it for 14 days without anything to loose, since you can return it no questions asked.
> 
> I would recommend at least 512gb for storage.


Yep, another advantage of Apple.


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