# Mode Confusion - Where does Melodic Minor fit in ?!?!?!



## om30tools (May 1, 2009)

Hey everyone, I've recently learned how to define modes of a major scale mode e.g. if I'm using the E major scale but starting on the 4th step I'd say the piece is in: 'A Lydian'.

But havent a clue as to how to define minor scale modes. In particular, I'm struggling to define a scale which contains the notes of a Gminor scale in (Melodic Minor form), but happens to start on D. 

Currently my guess is to define it as: 'D Mixolydian of G Melodic Minor'
Is this correct? Is this too wordy, whats the most efficient way to define this?

Thanks in advance!


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## clarkcontrol (May 1, 2009)

Fifth mode ascending melodic minor.

The ascending part is usually understood, so it commonly reads "5th mode mm."

Other modes of mm have their own special names, like 7th mode mm is called "Superlocrian."

But you can't go wrong with "5th mode" and such. For harmonic minor modes, same thing: 5th mode hm.

Clark


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## bryla (May 1, 2009)

It's just called a Mixolydian flat 13 (or 6).

No need to call things super and hyper and what not, since it confuses more than it helps


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## om30tools (May 3, 2009)

Thanks for replying guys! But as I figured i'm alot more confused now lol.

bryla, your answer about the 'flats' totally baffles me lol, if anything I thought that sharps would be involved.

clarkcontrol, why do you refer to it as "5th mode" as opposed to "mixolydian"?
And in my case, would it be 'D Mixolydian mm'?

Btw, clarkcontrol and Waywyn, I'm still a beginner with modes, only know how to label modes with major modes (ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian and locrian). Is there an online reference I can look at to learn about these "special names" for minor modes? 

Thanks again!


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## TheoKrueger (May 3, 2009)

http://home.scarlet.be/guido.vanspranghe/theory2.html

This one has audio examples:
http://www.howmusicworks.org/hmw804.asp

and a pdf:
http://akamai.www.berkleemusic.com/assets/display/3713779/berklee_major_minor_music_modes.pdf (http://akamai.www.berkleemusic.com/asse ... _modes.pdf)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MinorScale.svg



harvestthesouls @ Sun May 03 said:


> Is there an online reference I can look at to learn about these "special names" for minor modes?



Hey harvest, i don't think there are mode names for minor modes specifically as minor is a major starting from a third down.

According to that pdf:

"the scale we now know as Major was originally called the Ionian mode and its relative minor mode was known as Aeolian"

Also each mode name simply defines the relation betweens the notes. For example: Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone = Aeolian

The above relation would always remain a Aeolian mode (or minor) , the only thing changing would be the starting key that you play the relation from.


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## bryla (May 3, 2009)

harvestthesouls @ Sun May 03 said:


> bryla, your answer about the 'flats' totally baffles me lol, if anything I thought that sharps would be involved.


It shouldn't. G melodic minor for example
G A Bb C D E F#

from D:
D E F# G A Bb C

One note altered from a regular D mixolydian. The B becomes a Bb - You flatten the 6th step. Hence Mixolydian flat 6 or b6 whatever.

4th mode in Gmm becomes C lydian b7 or C mixolydian #4. 
3rd mode becomes Bb Ionian #5
and so on


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## clarkcontrol (May 4, 2009)

The names of the major modes are simply that. IMO, they should only be used that way. Jazzers use "lydian b7" to denote 4th mode MM all the time, knowing that the "flat" part only indicates that you lower the designated scale tone a half step.

This can be confusing because using the major modes as a way of naming modes of another scale adds another step to the equation, but ONLY if the mode is still on the same scale degree. Like Mixolydian b6:

1. Think of G major scale
2. Take that scale from D to D
3. Now alter the major mode to fit minor parent scale

By just thinking 5th mode mm:

1. G ascending mm scale
2. From D to D

But that's not all: Locrian #2 mode actually uses the 6th scale degree of the melodic minor, NOT the 7th mode like you would expect from the major scale equivalent. Lydian augmented uses the 3rd scale degree of mm, NOT the 4th mode from the major scale. Confused even more?

Major modes, I would use the names.
Minor modes, use numbers.

Being a jazzer myself, I am quite used to seeing modes spelled every which way. No problems however you want to do it. Melodic Minor is close enough to a major scale (one note difference) that it's easy to think "Lydian raise the fifth" for Lydian augmented, but when one is learning these things and the terminology is inconsistent, DON'T make it hard on yourself.

Clark


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## bryla (May 4, 2009)

clarkcontrol @ Mon May 04 said:


> Being a jazzer myself, I am quite used to seeing modes spelled every which way.


And this is why, it can be confusing to read my posts sometimes - because I mix them up in one shake...


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## midphase (May 4, 2009)

I think this is were EIS would come in very handy!

In EIS, it would be simply labeled as Scale #5 (if I understood correctly what you meant).


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## Stephen Baysted (May 5, 2009)

Harvest, 

I think it's easier to think of modes in a slightly different way. 

Each mode has its own and unique distribution of tones and semitones and as a result its own character. 

Lydian, for example (you mentioned this) has a sequence of three whole tones at beginning. Dorian has a minor 3rd and a major 6th. Mixolydian has a major 3rd and a minor 7th etc. 

You can play all modes on the white keys; to change mode all you need to do is change the drone (final). 


C to C on the white notes is: Ionian
D to D on the white notes is: Dorian
E to E on the white notes is: Phrygian
F to F on the white notes is: Lydian
G to G on the white notes is: Mixolydian
A to A on the white notes is: aeolian
B to B on the white notes is: Locrian

(some foolish scholars in the midst of time buggered the names up, so these church mode names bear no relation to the original Greek names for the modes). 

It's all very simple. 


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## clarkcontrol (May 5, 2009)

Modulation in the traditional sense. Scales and their modes are used much differently these days.

Please refer to the Harmonic Minor scale as a scale, not a mode:


> The harmonic minor mode is required for modulation


and:


> Historically and technically there are good reasons why the minor mode is problematic:


This should read "The modes of the minor scale..." if you indeed mean mode or just say "...the minor scale is problematic." Your language is not entirely incorrect, to be sure, but I want harvestthesouls to see how mode is derived from a parent scale. So to freely interchange the wording is misleading.

Also, ascending melodic minor is not harmonic, as your c minor example illustrates.

Sorry to be picky. I don't want to upset you, but I don't want there to be any MORE confusion here than already exists.

Historically there are many reasons why we have two minor scales (three if you count natural minor), and you wisely point out as part of this that terminology has been reappropriated by the english from the greeks. 

But the important thing to remember is the relationships. Modes are derived from Scales. Even synthetic scales. So history has less relevance as it pertains to understanding modes as we use them today.



bryla @ Mon May 04 said:


> clarkcontrol @ Mon May 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Being a jazzer myself, I am quite used to seeing modes spelled every which way.
> ...



Ha! Me too. I had a feeling you might be jazz inclined. Since I have all of this ground into my brain, I find myself slipping around the terminology when teaching this stuff.

I suppose that is why, when learning this stuff, I encourage people to go for clarity first, then muck it all up later...

Clark


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## Stephen Baysted (May 5, 2009)

clarkcontrol @ Tue May 05 said:


> Modulation in the traditional sense. Scales and their modes are used much differently these days.
> 
> Please refer to the Harmonic Minor scale as a scale, not a mode:
> 
> ...



Hi Clark, 

Yes I do mean harmonic minor mode, for that is what it is; it is, of course, rarely used as a scale in practice because of the aug 2nds. Morevoer, its entire raison d'etre is to permit modulation to take place - hence the necessity for another - synthetic and bastardised - mode which is more useful for melodic passages (melodic minor mode). (BTW, I've edited the post above to make it less ambiguous - I just re-read it from this morning and can see how the confusion could arise! - edits in []). 

The 'natural minor scale' is also a mode, since it isn't functional in tonal contexts, only modal contexts (it is the aeolian mode of course). To be pedantic, the major scale is yet another mode (Ionian). However, it is modulation and teleological ambition that separates modality from tonality and the Ionian mode inhabits both worlds. 

The historical angle is of primary significance in my view as it is really the only way to properly explain the profusion of minor modes. Minor modes were the subject of fierce debate in the 18th century, and of course in the 16th and early 17th centuries they became the de facto battle ground upon which the war between modality and nascent tonality was fought. As I mentioned, minor modes could not be determined by aliquot divisions or overtones (the method in which scales are and have always been determined (from the 18th century the latter method prevailed)) and as a result were the thorn in the side of those (Rameau in particular) who would seek to explain tonal harmony and an entire theory of composition on the basis of the generative properties of the harmonic series. 


Cheers


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## om30tools (May 6, 2009)

Wow, appreciate the comments everyone! Thanks for explaining the different ways of labelling minor modes. And as some of you've guessed yes im abit more confused lol. But I think I understand it a little better than before.

I'm not a jazzer, so I would be inclined to think that the neutral way of labelling my scale would be: 'G fifth mode mm' Is this true, is this a universally consented terminology? 

And why is it fifth mode, why isnt anyone using the word mixolydian, is it inaccurate? if so, why?

- Thanks


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## Stephen Baysted (May 6, 2009)

My view is that it's far easier and less confusing to say: g mixolydian or e dorian etc.


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## clarkcontrol (May 7, 2009)

harvestthesouls @ Wed May 06 said:


> I'm not a jazzer, so I would be inclined to think that the neutral way of labelling my scale would be: 'G fifth mode mm' Is this true, is this a universally consented terminology?
> 
> And why is it fifth mode, why isnt anyone using the word mixolydian, is it inaccurate? if so, why?



Well, mixolydian is not 5th mode mm. You would use mixolydian b13 (but I will assume that is what you meant).

So no, it's not inaccurate, it's just the terminology is less consistent, as I explained with the lydian augmented example above. Mixolydian b13 is exactly 5th mode mm.

Faster to learn the numbers first. Important to learn all the names eventually.

In jazz, one would probably use mix b13 instead of numbers. Labelling your scale 5th mode mm is fine otherwise. In session work, most of those guys are jazz savvy, thus making it more important to include names.

Me? In a session I might use both. Normally a reference to modes in a session's music indicates that there is an improvised solo using that sound.

Rousseau,

Thanks for making those corrections.

RE: Scales/Modes terminology

One could argue that all scales are modes and vice versa quite successfully, though not in the historical context you provide. Unless I was composing a madrigal, I don't believe in ancient history dictating how I perceive modes. Here's why:

It is quite common to consider scales and chords of the same entity as scales/modes. Consider C7#11. Stack this chord all the way up to the 13th and you have C Lydian b7, or 4th mode mm. The exact same notes. Same thing. This recent theoretical viewpoint was made quite popular with the developmant of jazz harmony, and postdates the invention of the ascending melodic minor modes by hundreds of years.

These days, scales and their modes are utilized quite differently than when they were assembled. That doesn't make 20th century usage illegitimate. Quite the opposite. I would say if you want to sound contemporary, know contemporary usage.

I was just hoping for a little clarity in the language to show the parent-child relationship of each scale-mode as it pertains to contemporary music theory.

Clark


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## om30tools (May 8, 2009)

Okay Clark I think I'm finally getting it. 
It seems like Whenever someone is defining '5th mode mm' in mode terminology, mixolydian does not = 5th mode, the way it would if you were defining a simple major scale. 
Its as if I were to say that the scale is in 'mixolydian', nobody would know that i'm talkin about a melodic minor scale unless adding the 'b13' next to it. 

The way I understand it now, is that we're talking about two distinct methods of labelling: a). '5th mode mm' (the neutral way) and b). Mixolydian b13 (Jazzer's way).

Now for session work joining the two might be confusing. But if purely for personal use, I assumed by saying 'mixolydian' followed by 'mm', the 'b13' is implied and therefore not so necessary to be stated? No?


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## bryla (May 8, 2009)

Mixolydian mm does not mean anything.
The mixolydian scale is ALWAYS build WWHWWHW. So from D the 6th step is B which makes out a G major key. So to point out it is the 5th mode of mm or a V7/II or which ever scenario calls for the Bb instead you call it Mixolydian b13.


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## david robinson (May 8, 2009)

hi,
nice thread.....

all the comments/info arrives at the same place.
to me, melodic modal variations indicate the direction of phrasing and the gravitational pull of same.
harmonic implications are another story.
DR9.


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## om30tools (May 8, 2009)

Okay, bryla I think you've honed it down for me, thats just what I figured, it sounds like mixolydian only refers to a strict series of intervals (I think this is what TheoKrueger and Rousseau tried have been trying to explain all along).

Please tell me I've finally understood this correctly? lol

And by rearranging the series of intervals, this series can translated as the fifth mode of a major scale, not any other type of scale. 

So it seems that, by trying to use two different labelling techniques together I did not realise they both refer to two seperate things and cannot be used in the same sentence. 

It sounds just as inconsistent as someone telling you to 'slow down the volume' when they should really be saying 'lower the volume'.

Okay so my options are to either say 'G fifth mode mm' or 'D mix b13' Correct?


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## clarkcontrol (May 8, 2009)

Yes, I think you're getting it. To review:


"D 5th mode mm" or "D mix b13" ----the D indicating the starting note of the mode (never indicates starting note of parent scale)

Mixolydian: 5th mode major scale ONLY

Mixolydian b13 (or b6) = 5th mode mm (these are the only two ways to describe this mode)

Mixolydian mm does not exist, though I understand your logic.


There's less flexibility in the naming conventions than one would think.

Clark


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## om30tools (May 8, 2009)

Well thank God for that! I thought this thread was going to go on forever lol

So both 'D 5th mode mm' and 'D mix b6 (or b13)' indicate that it is using the accidentals of an ascending G melodic Minor Scale right?


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## bryla (May 8, 2009)

Yes although, D mix b13 is used when D7 occurs in Dminor or Fmajor key (V7/II), where the D 5th mm is not common.


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## clarkcontrol (May 8, 2009)

Yes, and I imagine bryla is referring to a jazz context. If you were analyzing a classical piece, for instance, you could use either term.

Eventually, you'll want to learn both.

Clark


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## om30tools (May 9, 2009)

I agree Clark, well thanks alot to everyone for helping, this is a really great forum and im lucky to have stumbled upon it!!!

Thanks again!


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