# Is this normal? beginner starting out in the industry



## smalltownpoet (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm starting to get into film scoring, and got approached from a production company that does DVD menus and smaller production tv specials. They want to start their own music library for their productions. Anyways, the agreement is they get exclusive rights and I get $100 per 2 minutes of music. They told me I don't get any royalties, but this might change eventually. Is this normal (they told me they have to "test my abilities")?

On the positive side, it could lead to some great exposure. On the con side, very little money for potentially a lot of work. IDEAS???

Thanks 
Kevin


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## José Herring (Feb 7, 2009)

.....


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## Thonex (Feb 7, 2009)

Unless you are soooooooooo hard up for cash, I'd stay away from this. 

They're building a library which they own exclusively... you don't see any residuals (even on the smaller TV specials???)... they probably aren't giving you the "writer's share" of performance rights... and they're getting 2 minutes for $100???

To me, this sounds totally exploitative. 

If you do it, I hope you're not doing it for the money but more because of credit.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 7, 2009)

They're shorting you on everything. No royalties mean they have to buy you out. They want to buy you out for nothing. If you can crank out 2 minutes in a big hurry (like one cue a day) at 100 per minute than you could make 1000 a week. Keep in mind that a minute of quality orchestral music (samples/midi) goes for 1000 per minute in the film world.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 8, 2009)

Dave Connor @ 8/2/2009 said:


> Keep in mind that a minute of quality orchestral music (samples/midi) goes for 1000 per minute in the film world.



Here in Montreal, I'd say the average is much closer to half of that.


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## nikolas (Feb 8, 2009)

In games it would be around 500$ (at least) for 1 minute of finished music... :-/

100$ for 2 minutes, with NO royalties seems shity to me. But I've never done music libaries, so... don't listen to me really...


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## Synesthesia (Feb 8, 2009)

Terrible deal. Dont do it. I know guys who make a 6 figure income from their Library royalties alone.

Cheers,

Paul


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## rgames (Feb 8, 2009)

Wow - what libraries? Do they have 50,000 tracks in the library?

rgames


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## erockrazor (Feb 8, 2009)

rgames @ Sun Feb 08 said:


> Wow - what libraries? Do they have 50,000 tracks in the library?
> 
> rgames



I'm asking the same thing!


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## Andreas Moisa (Feb 8, 2009)

It's difficult to advice you to stay away from this, because it's an entry point to you.
For the credits it's ok, the money isn't very good - it's a professional job where you get paid peanuts. But you will also need some credits to go on.

(If you got royalties it's a different story, though. You guys in the US really have a disadvantage there - in Germany it's not possible to do a complete buyout...ok, because of this you have people who work in games only and people who work in film only...)

A much better way to start is to contact film students and do a lot of short films. You won't get any money there at all, but not because of exploitation - but because there simply aren't any big budgets and everyone works for free there. These contacts will someday work in the industry and maybe give you jobs. It's a long way.

Andreas


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## John DeBorde (Feb 8, 2009)

If you have to sign on to a bad gig just for the credit, don't make it a long term one that will keep you enslaved indefinitely.

Also whatever you do, don't give away your writer's royalty, but if this isn't for national broadcast, there probably won't be any royalties anyway. And make sure you're on the same page about what a royalty is too, ie that you're talking about performance royalties, not some sorta backend payment from them.

good luck!

john


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## cc64 (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi Kevin,

you have to be sure you keep the writer's share of your performance royalties(the money you are owed by TV/Radio stations when they use your music ASCAP/BMI/SESAC).

Honestly i fail to see the exposure this would get you as you will never see your name in the titles of a movie or TV show just for 1 or 2 cues...

As for the "testing your abilities" argument, that's moot since i don't see why they would pay 100$ for something they don't like and think they couldn't sell in the first place...

HTH

Good luck!

CC


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## midphase (Feb 8, 2009)

"Wow - what libraries? Do they have 50,000 tracks in the library? "

Nope...they just have their music in the "right" libraries (ie. libraries which actually will place your music, and not just be some chumps).

If you're consistently getting your tracks into TV shows (even reality TV) and trailers, you can easily get into the 6-figure range. Problem is that the majority (ie 90%) of the libraries out there are not getting any bites. There are way too many, the market is saturated!


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## cc64 (Feb 8, 2009)

midphase @ Sun Feb 08 said:


> There are way too many, the market is saturated!



Also if you ask me, just like Getty Images as killed the business of smaller photographers, music libraries are slowly doing the same to our business.

Best,

CC


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## Dave Connor (Feb 8, 2009)

1. Is it orchestral music?

2. I would try and bump them up to $100 per minute in any case.

3. This would not really be considered a _credit_ but you could tell people your working in music and have obviously have a current demo reel.

4. It's your call, follow your gut. If it becomes oppressive you can always bail.


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## midphase (Feb 8, 2009)

I agree....and this relates heavily to the IACOMP thread....we really need to unite!


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## kdm (Feb 8, 2009)

I haven't read the other thread but will. Kays - how would we unite effectively? 

I would think that for any union or professional organization to have any power it would have to have legal (and probably political) clout to back the standards. I would support an effective and constructive mechanism for upholding value standards for this industry.

Regards,
Dedric


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## midphase (Feb 8, 2009)

One of the ways is by doing exactly what is happening here....asking for advice and sharing info.


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## nikolas (Feb 8, 2009)

Thing is that unions, etc, have never worked... At least not as far as I can see. Even if LA, or the USA has set prices, one can always get a job (with the Internet and all), from other parts of the world and simply kill the industry this way...

Education is the key, like Kays says, but it does seem a long way to go.


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## Markus S (Feb 9, 2009)

I also agree with what has been said here, it is definitely under payed. Tell them that you would do it for at least 500,00 $$ (for two minutes) or better 1.000,00 $$ (for two minutes). Don't count too much on the exposure thing, it might be relatively improbable that the credits of your music will be easily found in the DVD. So that someone watches the DVD and tells himself, wow, I really liked that music in the menu, who did that? Even if this can happen, it is too uncertain. Probably the credit will be : music by .. (firm name that provided the music)

As for professional experience it can be good, but I think you should be able to find something better in the music library world, so that you can benefit from royalties.

So, if they don't raise the price, I'd say, walk away.


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## Andreas Moisa (Feb 9, 2009)

> how would we unite effectively?



In Germany we have the "composers club". They are currently connecting with similar associations in europe and certain problems are being adressed with more weight. I don't know if this has any value for people outside the EU, but hey, maybe you can write Eva (head of office) a mail and she can tell you. www.composers-club.de [email protected]

Greets,
Andreas


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## cc64 (Feb 9, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> One of the ways is by doing exactly what is happening here....asking for advice and sharing info.



+1000


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2009)

"Thing is that unions, etc, have never worked... At least not as far as I can see. Even if LA, or the USA has set prices, one can always get a job (with the Internet and all), from other parts of the world and simply kill the industry this way..."

I have to disagree here. SAG, WGA, DGA, IASTE, AFTRA, etc.

Those are all very successful guilds and unions, and contrary to popular belief, the majority of big studio films (ie. the one which pay a lot) are getting made in LA. Don't think that just because some of the crap paying films are heading to Seattle and Eastern Europe, that the LA orchestras are not working. Sure they're seeing a decrease in dates, but I bet that if you called the Fox lot to secure some recording dates with an orchestra, you'd have to get in line and the availability would be limited.


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2009)

Just another thought:

What is killing unions is not the fact that there are unions, but the fact that those unions are holding on (just like other people in this business) to tenets and habits which have now become outdated.

The truth is that the unions which are most progressive and forward thinking are thriving!


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## Stevie (Mar 16, 2009)

One question about the 500-1000$/min.
Is this money paid for the production of a certain track for the library or are we talking about royalities?

As stated in my other thread (damn library music! or something like that :lol: )
here in Germany you don't get a penny for producing library music.
They just want to license stuff you already composed. At least that is my experience,
maybe I am not elite enough 

Best,

Stevie


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## lux (Mar 16, 2009)

sounds very low.


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## midphase (Mar 16, 2009)

It depends on the libraries. IMHO if there's no money up front...it better not be an exclusive deal (ie. you can license the same cue to as many other libraries as you want).


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## Stevie (Mar 16, 2009)

Yep, Luca, even more exploitative is only the "pay for play" method (filmmusic.net etc...).

@midphase, yeah, exclusive is a bad idea with so little appeal.


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## PaulWood (Mar 17, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> What is killing unions is not the fact that there are unions, but the fact that those unions are holding on (just like other people in this business) to tenets and habits which have now become outdated.



That would be the UK MU then... :x


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## videohlper (Mar 19, 2009)

kdm @ Sun Feb 08 said:


> cc64 @ Sun Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > midphase @ Sun Feb 08 said:
> ...



Okay. I'm involved in the library business. And although I do see a lot of cost-cutting on the part of the clientele these days, it's not because of production music libraries.

1. ACID/GARAGEBAND: Composers can now call themselves such if they've invested $150 in software. Where it used to take over $20k of gear to produce something professional, composers are now willing to let their cuts go for next to nothing -- usually because they required about ten minutes of lining up loops and they're done. I just heard a show theme that was about 75% recognizable loops. although I think the composer wrote the minor chord beneath them all by his/herself.

2. Um -- THE ECONOMY: There are currently more than 1200 affiliate stations in the US. In two years, based on what I've been told by the networks -- the market will be decimated, with at least 300 of the stations losing their affiliations and disappearing. That's because they are not getting the same amount of $ for commercials. No income = no budget. Music. Talent. Rent. All these budgets are being slashed aggressively. 

3. PEOPLE: People are undercutting other people for the work out there that remains. Professionals with years in the business are getting desperate -- and I'm not going to name names -- but there have been some horrific deals made for hardly any $ from "professionals" and established companies who really should know better. Why? People can be stupid. 

All sounds like doom and gloom, right? Not really.

In the past year or so, my company has been approached by more clients than EVER to do custom music for a wide range of projects: trailers, commercials, show opens, themes. And we don't even advertise that we want the work. The work's out there, but in a tough economy, people are less likely to go with new talent and will feel better and more comfortable going with people/companies they've dealt with before. 

So if you're just starting out, you're probably facing a tough climb: there's never been a worse time to try and find new business. 

So don't blame libraries. In a depression/recession, clients have less money and have to use what they have left in their meager budgets as wisely as possible. They don't have thousands of dollars for kill fees, orchestral sessions, legal contracts and lengthy creative gestation periods. 

This goes for TV and corporate video projects, though. Films and trailers still seem to have money coming out of every orifice. Who knew that recessions/depressions often trigger an increase in film attendance?

I'm rambling, but I felt like some of you who haven't been knee-deep in litigation for contracts for several months should get an idea of what the economy is REALLY like in the TV/corporate business. It's tough. It's tough for new composers and for even established guys who do high-end, big-budget TV work. Everyone in the middle seems to be scrambling to adapt and survive, for the most part.

And by adapting, maybe you should get your name out there. Compose for an established library. Someone who pays decently per track and lets you keep the composers royalties. Or lets you have non-exclusive rights for a sync-only deal. Or -- anything. There have been some pretty great ways of getting noticed in the past, and who gives a crap who's talented and who's not? If nobody hears you, what's the point?

(Favorite Joke: Comedian Mitch Hedberg was once asked if he liked doing satellite radio interviews because he could curse. He replied "you can curse because NOBODY listens to satellite radio. You can curse in the woods, too.")

I hope this helps give some people perspective. Most likely it will somehow piss people off (although it wasn't intended to). I seriously and honestly wish those of you who are trying your hardest to get your music heard -- and bought -- success. 

Stew


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## Hannes_F (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Stew,

thank you for posting this - always good to see more than one side.

I have a question regarding this part:



videohlper @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> 2. Um -- THE ECONOMY: ... That's because they are not getting the same amount of $ for commercials. No income = no budget. Music. Talent. Rent. All these budgets are being slashed aggressively.



With other words they go the way of least resistance, right? The lesser the resistance, the bigger the budget cut, as a general rule?


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## videohlper (Mar 19, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Hi Stew,
> 
> thank you for posting this - always good to see more than one side.
> 
> ...



Well, Hannes, you could look at it that way. In this case, composed/work-for-hire musical compositions are the path of least resistance. Music libraries often work on yearly contracts with these stations. The talent has union contracts. Etc. The first things to go are the easily avoided and legal-contract-free.


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## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

"Compose for an established library. Someone who pays decently per track and lets you keep the composers royalties. "

Understand that this is easier said that done. Most libraries of that sort have a full roster of composers and are not soliciting any new composers.


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## videohlper (Mar 19, 2009)

Yeah, Kays. Unfortunately, you're right. Some (like ours) have a limited number of spots available at a given time. 

Sometimes it's not about how good a composer is, but more about what libraries need at that time. That goes back to being at the right place at the right time, which sucks.

But what really bums me out is that a lot of people try half-heartedly and then blame it on the economy. 

That's why I want to share this true story: one of our staff composers, when he initially applied for a job here was turned down because of his demo. Although musically it was sufficient, it lacked a lot of what we were looking for. We told him so -- and we thought that was it. THE NEXT DAY he sends us a new demo, all of the spots corrected and built-up the way we said they should be. Holy crap! Although the demo was still not exactly what we were looking for, we hired the guy on the spot.

Anyone who is willing to work hard and really give that much of themselves is going to stand out from the crowd. Luckily, he later turned out to be a phenomenally talented musician and creative composer/sound designer. 

In the fifteen years our company's been around, that's still my favorite story.

It also goes to show you have to be more than just talented. You have to bring something to the table. And in a crappy economy, you have to do more than the expected -- you have to go way farther. Don't just write what a library already has -- bring something new. And be prepared to explain what makes you so different/worthwhile to hire to them, should they ask. 

[Note to beginners: That doesn't mean that you have to work for less money. Composers should be keeping their composer's rights and get some kind of recompensation for their initial work, either as a composition fee on approval or a % of sync. Period.] 

However, there are some libraries that are stand-outs in the field that I think are worthwhile to at least hassle to get them to listen to your music (in case you don't know who's who in the library biz). Personally, I really like (in no particular order):

Five Alarm Music, Fifth Floor Music, 615 Music, Megatrax, Non Stop Music, KPM, Atmosphere, Extreme, Koka and Music Box, to name a few.

There are plenty of Mega-Aggregators, like Firstcom and Killer Tracks. They're worth hitting up, too.

I'm rambling again. Kays, I remember your stuff -- it was good. If you ever have questions or need the inside scoop on the library biz, shoot me an email and I'll try to help any way I can. Slow times don't last forever.

S


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## videohlper (Mar 19, 2009)

By the way, the above diatribe sounds condescending. It was not intended to be. It also was also replying to a bunch of emails I rec'd and I was attempting to kill two birds with one stone.

I realize you're fully aware of about 90% of the stuff in the above posting, Kays. 

S


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## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

Just to address something...the post blaming music libraries which I was quoted as writing did not actually come from me.

Like many of the guys around here, from time to time I'll contribute to a music library company mostly on movie trailer stuff which can be quite lucrative.

I think reality TV has helped tremendously the music library business model and also unfortunately has created a ridiculous amount of competition and oversaturated the market. 

I agree with the list that S gave of the top legit libraries in the biz. The biggest problem with some of the other relatively new libraries (aside from generally not paying money up front) is that they simply lack the clientele. Working with a good library will ensure that your music gets placed in either trailers or TV which will result in making the whole thing worth your time and money spent on gear. 

Unfortunately...some of the problems that S mentioned can also be blamed on music libraries constantly undercutting each other to get the work. Just like composers have underbid each other into lower and lower wages, so have music libraries which has resulted in quite a bit of them actually folding and for the survivors to have to deal with networks who quite simply just don't want to pay for music!


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## kid-surf (Mar 20, 2009)

> I just had this conversation today with some associates, and am infuriated with some attitudes about the devaluation of music as art today. One successful director's response to the royalty free, low price trend was (paraphrase) "this is where music is going, get over it". Well, video is going that way too, so while it benefits some today, it will only cost everyone the opportunity to pursue a career in an artistic field in the long run.
> 
> Guys, this is only working it's way up the chain to higher and higher level projects. My wife is a professional illustrator and designer (with a rep), and the custom illustration market is almost gone. The only way to stop it is to simply refuse to participate in this kind of abusive treatment of artists. I know some make money from libraries, but seriously, I've watched this seep into higher and higher levels of the industry for 20 years now, and it's getting much worse, much faster now - in 10-20 years, there will only be a rare few composer making any kind of living at this rate.



This one of the reasons I gave up on the climb to be a well paid/quality jobbed composer and went into writing. I could see the writing on the wall, I just couldn't see how I was going to rise while the sky was falling. I liked the concept of a UNION minimum that, btw, would take untold years as a composer to work up to fighting the battle mostly by themselves. I agree with you (though many don't) I feel the lack of a composer union only hurts composers in the long run. The fact is, composer rates are falling while every union member is seeing their fee increased - or at the very least, stabilized.



> Thing is that unions, etc, have never worked... At least not as far as I can see. Even if LA, or the USA has set prices, one can always get a job (with the Internet and all), from other parts of the world and simply kill the industry this way...



I disagree. Look at the screenwriting world. There are 50,000 scripts registered with WGA each year, untold thousands that aren't. The market bares the number to have a similar situation to music if not for the union, and in fact IS that way if you are not in the union. If you are NOT in the WGA you can be offered as little as $0.00 for a screenplay out there in the free market. If you are a WGA member the least you can be offered is $100,000. The union works...after all, the writers strike shut down the entire industry. Didn't hear of anyone going FiCore.

Another distinction I find unfortunate is representation differences: In the past, successful composer agents have told me flat out. One said: "I like your stuff but I can't sign you, even if you had a studio film I may not sign you, it's tuff out there. Even then, there's very little I could do for you. Most of my [names we'd recognize] clients are hired by their credits, I send the producers CDs and they don't even listen to them. I would be surprised if the producers have ever heard their music. These guys are booked when a producer can say to himself that he heard of that movie and it did well. Nobody knows good music from bad, they know credits" Another said: "I'm interested in hip-pocketing you. Although, think of me as the guy who'll do your deal AFTER you go out and secure the job. There may be the odd job that one of our more successful composers isn't interested in but don't hold your breath. And don't sit by the phone waiting for me to call"

Obviously I appreciated the candor.


Now here's what screenwriting agents said to me in comparison: "I'm excited to work with you. What do you want to do next? I want you to be true to yourself and only do something you're passionate about. You need to build a career with the right people. I'm going to put a list together of people I want you to meet, I want you to find a good producer to get some projects going with them."

Next thing I know I'm juggling projects and working with a producer with a box office hit, 200 mil film in theater at that moment, who hangs out with studio and agency heads and who is friends with A-list writers and directors. And I'm sitting there in his office with him asking 'me' what I want to do next, what I'm passionate about writing. Explaining that I should NOT do anything other than write something that's important to me. "Huh...? Is this candid camera?"

Never would have played out this way for me as a composer. Would have taken me ten years, or more, or if ever, to get to this point. Every bit of it due to the strength of the union. They make it possible for one to be valued more so by their ACTUAL work than past credits.



> So if you're just starting out, you're probably facing a tough climb: there's never been a worse time to try and find new business.



Interestingly, this is the exact opposite of the screenwriter world. In the screenwriter world the bad economy is helping the newer screenwriter. The studios don't want to pay mid level guys $750,000 to a Mil for the same script they can pay a new (fresh/cutting edge) writer $100,000 - $200,000 for. Interestingly, the top guys at 3 Mil and such, aren't being effected as they are "the closers".

Wonder if any of that is playing out in the composing world?



> But what really bums me out is that a lot of people try half-heartedly and then blame it on the economy.
> 
> That's why I want to share this true story: one of our staff composers, when he initially applied for a job here was turned down because of his demo. Although musically it was sufficient, it lacked a lot of what we were looking for. We told him so -- and we thought that was it. THE NEXT DAY he sends us a new demo, all of the spots corrected and built-up the way we said they should be. Holy crap! Although the demo was still not exactly what we were looking for, we hired the guy on the spot.
> 
> Anyone who is willing to work hard and really give that much of themselves is going to stand out from the crowd.



Agreed. And that goes for every creative'. Can't be lazy in this economy, nobody is entitled.



> By the way, the above diatribe sounds condescending.



Not to me. Straight talk is hard for some folks to swallow, some people like to bury their heads in the sand and plug their ears. Thankfully, most here don't strike me that way. The proverb. "an enemy will agree, a friend will argue", comes to mind.

What is my general point?: It's hard-ER to navigate sharky waters without a boat or a paddle and swimming against the current. It's too bad composers don't have "something" (Union, Guild) to stabilize the "minimum" rate. Though, unfortunately, I don't see it ever happening. In theory it would take the top composers in the business to pull the plug until a union was established. But. They've got no 'good' reason to do that. Let's pretend they did do that, I'm pretty sure the studio would say to them "Well, it was a pleasure working with you... Sorry to see it end this way." The studios would keep going. Unfortunately, most everyone views music as an 'expense'. Not sure there's a way around that flawed mentality.

Interesting thread...


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## damoy (Jun 8, 2009)

So what would make the OP's deal worthwhile? Taking into consideration the title of the thread "beginner starting out in the industry" of course.

Let's say that royalties are off the table and this is a buyout.

1. Would guaranteed exposure make it worthwhile? Say (as fictionally unrealistic as this is) he was told that all the tracks he produced this year would get placed in national television spots.

2. Or (again fictionally unrealistic) what if it had the element of being artistically satisfying?

3. Or is there a price that would make it worthwhile? Who would go for double the rate? quadruple the rate? 10 times the rate?

4. Or some combination of the above?

Finally, what are folks experiences on who actually gets royalties these days? Only the well known, seasoned composers? It's random and just depends on the production company? Or is it like the OPs situation where you start off with none, but may be entitled to them after establishing yourself?


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## JohnG (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi Damoy

Given your questions, it might set your mind at ease to check out some resources that aren't too expensive to learn more about this subject (more below on that).

I have never been asked to surrender the composer's share of the royalties. The contract is generally worded, in a network or studio or serious production company situation, to read that the music is produced as a "work for hire" and that the employer is therefore the author of the work and thus owns everything about it.

But then later it will say something like, "notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein, the composer is entitled to his so-called 'composer's share' of any royalties that may be paid by a performing rights society such as BMI or ASCAP." This is NOT the exact wording, but that's the gist of it. The production company also warrants that it will provide a copy of the cue sheet so that such royalties can be calculated and paid.

The contract should cover, in addition, that you get credit in the main titles for a film or TV show and how the credit will read ("Music by Damoy"), plus how much and when you get paid (1/2 up front and 1/2 on delivery still seems pretty common).

For very low budget films, negotiate instead for a "sync license" agreement so that you retain ownership of the music and cede only the right to "synchronise" (that is, put the music in the film) for all media in all territories forever throughout the universe. So that means they can broadcast it anywhere, any time; they don't have to come back to you in five years if some new media is invented.

There used to be a book called "This Business of Music" with a lot of info like this in it, and ASCAP and BMI have plenty of songwriters' and other agreements free online.

Be aware that it is important that you read a few of these agreements so you have a sense of where the lines are; they generally are written by studios who are interested in maximum protection and rights for themselves and are not interested in the rights of the artist. They expect you to get a lawyer or know enough to protect yourself. If you aren't comfortable working through these issues, suggest that you have an agent help you or hire a lawyer to look over the agreement.

And I always feel while reading these agreements that I'm reviewing a crime scene report, so if that's how you feel, you're not alone!


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## damoy (Jun 8, 2009)

JohnG @ Mon Jun 08 said:


> Hi Damoy
> 
> I have never been asked to surrender the composer's share of the royalties. The contract is generally worded, in a network or studio or serious production company situation, to read that the music is produced as a "work for hire" and that the employer is therefore the author of the work and thus owns everything about it.



But you're a big time composer. Was this true even when you were just starting out in the business? 

If a production company is seeking to claim both the writer's and the publisher's share of the royalities, would this be considered something unethical or just extreme shrewdness on the part of the production company?

And thanks for another insightful post John.


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## damoy (Jun 10, 2009)

JohnG @ Mon Jun 08 said:


> Hi Damoy,
> 
> I heard that, in those days, one well known production company forced composers to list their executives as composers on cue sheets, but I never personally saw that.



Well yes, Thomas Newman is larger than life, but you're still big in my book :mrgreen: 

This use of the word "force" is interesting. So does the composer actually have to consent and purposefully sign off on this kind of thing? Or the can cue sheets be submitted without the composer ever seeing or knowing about it?

BTW, I did pick up the book "The Business of Music". It's a great read!


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