# Need a good, but small hardware mixer - recommendations?



## tmm (Aug 11, 2018)

Have a bit of a sound design project going on, and I would really like to track down a great sounding mixer with at least 4 channels, need to mix down to stereo. Ideally I’d like something fully analog, with good built-in preamps, maybe some EQ, etc... something that will have some additional tonal qualities to experiment with. I don’t know if this exists... I’m envisioning something maybe with Neve (or similar quality) pre’s built-in - does that exist (outside of a giant studio installation)?

I have little to no experience with hardware mixers, haven’t needed one previously.

Points go to the recommendation that is physically the smallest while still having all
of the above!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 11, 2018)

What kind of price range?

At the lower end Mackie has always been a solid choice. Yamaha's, Allen and Heath's, and Soundcraft's mixers should be fine too.

But you can keep going up in price and quality. I haven't looked at what Speck makes today, for example, but he (Vince - the owner of the company) always had really good-sounding mixers that were in the middle before you get to high-end studio mixers. But he may not have a product with few enough ins and outs for you.

That aside, I and many other people switched to using their audio interfaces instead of analog mixers years ago. If you're after something analog for analog's sake, maybe a summing mixer or monitor controller + a good outboard mic preamp would be better?


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## tmm (Aug 11, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What kind of price range?



Not sure yet. I’m not opposed to paying for the right piece. I’ll definitely look up Speck.

I’m not looking for something that’s going to give me the most pristine, clean mix. I want character.

Anyone watch SonicState? And see that Friday Fun where Nick is playing his dusty old CS15? Those crackly, dirty pots paired with an insanely juicy, monster synth sounds awesome! That’s the sort of thing I’m hoping for. If the channels bleed into each other a bit, or affect each other / compress together some, that would be great 

In case you haven’t seen it, and love synths, you should treat yourself:




Nick Batzdorf said:


> That aside, I and many other people switched to using their audio interfaces...



Probably 90% of what I do is ITB, too. Just recently been feeling more inspired by things I can put my hands on, and have a thing for dusty, imperfect tones.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> maybe a summing mixer or monitor controller + a good outboard mic preamp would be better?



Maybe? I’ll be transparent and say, “what’s a summing mixer?”


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## Jake (Aug 11, 2018)

Some years ago I purchased a Behringer Xenyx1202 for our congregations sound system and it's been working just fine.

However I recently decided to add a compressor to the audio chain and found that this mixer was not the right choice for our application in the long run.

The Mackie that CGR showed above would have been a better choice and here's why.

The Behringer has an FX send whereas the Mackie shown above has an Aux send.

FX send is post level and the Aux send (to the best of my knowledge) is pre level.

This means that I cannot take a mic input into one channel and send it out the FX send while turning the level to zero so I can bring the signal (post compressor) back into another channel and send that out the mains without mixing the wet and dry signals. The only way to get a wet only signal to the main bus is with an Aux send.

Not sure if this makes sense, but the bottom line is that I wish now that I had realized the difference between the two types of sends. They both have their place, but for my use I got the wrong one.

I can get around this situation using other signal paths, but the easiest way would have been with the right mixer from the beggining.

So, I'm trying to say that you need to attempt to anticipate what you desire to do in the future and pick the right flavor mixer based on that.


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## jcrosby (Aug 12, 2018)

tmm said:


> Not sure yet. I’m not opposed to paying for the right piece. I’ll definitely look up Speck.
> 
> I’m not looking for something that’s going to give me the most pristine, clean mix. I want character.
> 
> ...



Why not get a few inexpensive preamps with different flavors? When I had tons of outboard I used to love running them through cheap tube or solid state preamps. I'd use them specifically to dirty the sound up, not go for a clean sound... I always though they sounded kind of great when intentionally abused, and still recycle the samples I sent through them to this day...


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## Nicholas B (Aug 12, 2018)

While the footprint is quite large, I can highly recommend the Mackie ONYX 1640i. It does use firewire for I/O, but has great onboard EQ and mix bus section. Very versatile for studio use and live use. Solid build quality and built to last.


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## wst3 (Aug 12, 2018)

First, I am going to assume you mean an analog (or mostly analog) console. If I missed something please disregard the rest!

There is "character" and there is noise and distortion. To some they are one and the same, and that's not a judgement, if it works for you it works.

Personally, I would shy away from the lower end of the spectrum, including Mackie, A&H, Yamaha, and Soundcraft. All of these lines have been "value engineered" to get the prices down, and the first victim of value engineering is the power supply. Designing (and building) a good power supply is not cheap. You would think otherwise, I mean there isn't anything new in linear supplies, and very little new (applicable to us anyway) in switching supplies.

Where it will cause you grief is headroom and transient response. If you are really careful you can work around it, but the whole idea of a physical mixer is that you don't have to be constantly worrying about levels, analog is supposed to be more forgiving then digital. But in an inexpensive mixer you have to be every bit as careful, which would kill the vibe!

Speck builds brilliant stuff! His mixers are darned near transparent - which may not be what you are looking for, his equalizers are amazingly musical, and straddle the line between character and neutral. I think the only mixer he still sells is the LiLo, which is a line level only mixer that you probably can't clip. They were around $10k for a 16x2 when they were released. That was a little too rich for my bank account.

If you are looking for character over convenience look for an older (more experienced?) mixer from Ramsa, Yamaha, A&H, or Soundcraft. The problem you may run into is that most of them will be fairly large, with high channel counts - that's what folks wanted. Crest and Tangent made smaller mixers designed for live sound reinforcement, and may have fewer features you won't be using anyway.

There is always Altec and RCA - lots of character, but lots of maintenance as well, since they are very old at this point.

Someone above mentioned using a summing box. That won't address the hand's on aspect, but it can provide character. Look for a passive summer and an active makeup gain stage, then choose the gain stage to suit your tastes.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2018)

One comment about what Bill says: those old Ramsa mixers are likely to need new caps, which is more trouble and expense than you probably want. That comes from the guy who designed them!

I used to own a 16 x 4 x 2 one, and it was very nice - in fact it was probably a mistake selling it for a pittance. But if I were buying a used Ramsa, I'd buy two: one with donor modules for the other one.


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## Rctec (Aug 12, 2018)

Jake said:


> Some years ago I purchased a Behringer Xenyx1202 for our congregations sound system and it's been working just fine.
> 
> However I recently decided to add a compressor to the audio chain and found that this mixer was not the right choice for our application in the long run.
> 
> ...


... you are confusing pre/post switches in an aux send with what you really want to do: use an ’insert’ across the channel for a compressor...


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## chimuelo (Aug 12, 2018)

For keyboards, ITB sends and analog synths I absolutely love the ancient 6 & 8 channel Tapco mixers.
Very rare but they just buzz with Audio voltage.
I use a small ROMpler just for rehearsals and my Drummer has one these he hasn’t used in years.
The EPiano sounds were fantastic.
I took it home at ran my synths through it and have been shopping for 2 of these ever since.
Also Sears Silvertone amps and mixers from the 60s-70s.

First rule of government spending.
Why buy one when you can have two for twice the price.
Like Nick says it’s wise to get some parts.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2018)

Tapco was Greg Mackie's company before Mackie. I'm not surprised it's a good mixer.


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## wst3 (Aug 13, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> One comment about what Bill says: those old Ramsa mixers are likely to need new caps, which is more trouble and expense than you probably want. That comes from the guy who designed them!



I don't wish to debate the guy that designed the boards - and it depends on the mixer I imagine. The whole re-capping things is - from my experience - somewhat exaggerated. There are circuits that were designed with one type of capacitor that can benefit from newer types. There are circuits that use electrolytics that have reached the end of their useful life. But just plain shotgun replacement often benefits the guy doing the work more than the audio.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> I used to own a 16 x 4 x 2 one, and it was very nice - in fact it was probably a mistake selling it for a pittance.


Always a mistake to sell for a pittance - well, nearly always!

[QUOTE="Nick BatzdorfBut if I were buying a used Ramsa, I'd buy two: one with donor modules for the other one.[/QUOTE]
Once again that hasn't been my experience. A Ramsa WRT820B that I installed in a church back in the late 1980s (possibly a little later than that, I really don't remember) was recently replaced. There was nothing wrong with the board, but the new audio guy wanted a digital mixer. If I didn't have the Tangent project glowering at me I'd have grabbed it. They were great boards, very versatile and sounded really good. Oodles (that's a technical term) of headroom!


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## wst3 (Aug 13, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Tapco was Greg Mackie's company before Mackie. I'm not surprised it's a good mixer.


Yes indeed. Not sure I'd want to go back to Tapco, but they were good mixers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2018)

Bill, he was saying the caps go bad!

At least that's what I remember, and they're what goes bad on regular circuit boards (meaning ones with discrete components, i.e. ones from before circuit-mounted boards). In any case, the takeaway was that you're likely to be doing some soldering.

My impression is that it's power supply caps, the high-voltage ones, that are most susceptible to turning into a leaky mess, but I'm not sure that's true.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2018)

Replacing caps to improve the sound is a separate question, in other words.

And yeah, letting that board go for a pittance was a mistake. I was blown away by the then-new Yamaha digital mixers... which ironically I ended up replacing with a Panasonic DA7 digital mixer.  (As you know, Ramsa was Panasonic's pro audio division.)


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## tmm (Aug 13, 2018)

thanks for all the info and recommendations guys! after some consideration, I think I'm going to take Nick's original advice, use more inputs on my interface, and handle the character adding ITB. Lots and lots of tools available for that, and plenty of them work well. Much faster, easier, and cheaper $ than what I'm finding as I start looking up some of these ^


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## tmm (Aug 13, 2018)

BTW, the project at hand was stacking a handful of SE Boomstar modules using the MIDI overflow to create a massive analog poly. Really excited to see the results! Shouldn't be so different from the concept of a FVS, or the like. I was thinking to add some more tweakable, character-inducing elements to the signal chain pre-box, but I have more than enough I can do ITB, too.


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## wst3 (Aug 14, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Bill, he was saying the caps go bad!
> 
> At least that's what I remember, and they're what goes bad on regular circuit boards (meaning ones with discrete components, i.e. ones from before circuit-mounted boards). In any case, the takeaway was that you're likely to be doing some soldering.
> 
> My impression is that it's power supply caps, the high-voltage ones, that are most susceptible to turning into a leaky mess, but I'm not sure that's true.



OK, that is a different issue - there are batches of larger electrolytic capacitors that have been known to fail, and when they fail they tend to make a gooey mess. It does not apply to all electrolytic capacitors, and it is less of a problem for capacitors in the audio path. It is a problem for power supplies, largely because a lot of folks save a penny by using the lowest quasi-reasonable value. If the capacitors are sized correctly (meaning for longevity) then they are less prone to failure.


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## wst3 (Aug 14, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Replacing caps to improve the sound is a separate question, in other words.



Very true!

For DC blocking capacitors in the audio path I think I can hear a difference between standard and bipolar capacitors, and I grudgingly admit I think I can hear a difference between some formulations.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> And yeah, letting that board go for a pittance was a mistake. I was blown away by the then-new Yamaha digital mixers... which ironically I ended up replacing with a Panasonic DA7 digital mixer.  (As you know, Ramsa was Panasonic's pro audio division.)



Digital mixers do offer some pretty cool features. I was briefly tempted, but the first Yamaha mixer I used didn't sound very good. And I couldn't modify it. So I stuck with analog<G>!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 14, 2018)

My current quarter-finished project: resurrecting the power supply for my Kurzweil K250. It needs its caps replacing (actually in both supplies - there are high- and lower-voltage ones in the same enclosure).

Anyway, the components that go bad in older Ramsa boards are in the modules. What I'm only 97% sure of is that it's caps.

And yeah, the Panasonic DA7 sounded a lot better than the Yamaha 03D. You could hear it immediately. But you'd expect the 02R96 to sound better than any of them, because it came out later and hand the other mixers as a target.


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## chimuelo (Aug 15, 2018)

tmm said:


> BTW, the project at hand was stacking a handful of SE Boomstar modules using the MIDI overflow to create a massive analog poly. Really excited to see the results! Shouldn't be so different from the concept of a FVS, or the like. I was thinking to add some more tweakable, character-inducing elements to the signal chain pre-box, but I have more than enough I can do ITB, too.



Well then definately go for a mixer from the 70s or 80s that sat in some garage for 20 years.
Get something cheap for the time being but don’t stop shopping for an old low mileage mixer.
I once found an expensive rare hardware synth in a wooden case I thought was a Pool Cue.
Opened it up and it was an EML-101 Analog Synth in Mint condition. I gave the lady 100 bucks because I told her it was worth more than 20 bucks.
I always take my pig nose amp and cables with me when garage shopping.
Most recently I bought 2 x MacIntosh 2500 watt Power Amps with chicken wire and bright orange tubes.
I’m always seeing little mixers and record players.
Gray and Tan were popular colors in the 70s.

I’ve got nothing but Studio Electronics gear. Code 8 OD with all Filter options, 2 x SE-02s and 2 x SE-1Xs with distortion and Envelope mod. They sound like greasy fat bastards when thrown into an old mixer. But I admit I really love the pristine sound of my RCF TT08As. They’re powered 8 inch cabinets that can open doors with SPLs.

Don’t give up looking.

Below is my beloved fat multi oscilator EML.
I’ve been offered thousands for it. No way Jose, it stays where it lays.


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## wst3 (Aug 15, 2018)

Depending on the era repairing the power supply for the K250 may be easy, or barely worth the effort. Most power supplies from that era still used thru-hole components or snap-in capacitors, so you should be ok.

If that is not the case, believe it or not there are companies that make replacement power supplies for studio gear. In truth they made the original power supplies, and some are smart enough to still sell them as replacements. I was able to get a replacement power supply for a Proteus 2 for $30. The replacement capacitors would have been less, but the time to replace them would have been more. It was a physical match so I just dropped it in. Lovely!

I don't remember which Yamaha digital mixer poisoned my ears. I think it was their first. I really should have followed up as they improved them, but didn't. Oops!


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## chillbot (Aug 15, 2018)

wst3 said:


> I don't remember which Yamaha digital mixer poisoned my ears. I think it was their first. I really should have followed up as they improved them, but didn't.


I've had only Yamaha digital mixers for 25 years, gone through about 6 of them I think. There was a huge jump in quallity from the 03D to the 01V. Rough timeline (if I remember) was ProMix01 --> 02R --> 03D --> 01V --> DM2000 --> 02R96 --> 01V96.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2018)

They're huge discrete power supplies from 1984, and yeah, it's just a matter of replacing a few caps on a real circuit board. Piece of cake - once I go out and buy the right ones.

(They made two versions, I had the wrong schematic, and bought the caps for the wrong one using the schematic rather than the circuit board.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2018)

chillbot said:


> I've had only Yamaha digital mixers for 25 years, gone through about 6 of them I think. There was a huge jump in quallity from the 03D to the 01V. Rough timeline (if I remember) was ProMix01 --> 02R --> 03D --> 01V --> DM2000 --> 02R96 --> 01V96.



The ProMix01 was a totally amazing mixer that unseated Mackie when it came out - no small task. It had fully recallable automation, moving faders, and built-in effects, and it was cheap.

Mackie had figured out how to bring down the cost of very decent analog mixers about as low as analog could go, and they were kicking serious arse. I toured their factory in Redinville, WA in 1994, and it was impressive - definitely not the typical austere place you expect factories to be. They certainly took it seriously, but it seemed like everyone who worked at that company was having fun (to a point anyway).

As an aside to this aside, they'd just bought a wave-soldering machine that saved them time/money - even though it was broken a third of the time. And I mean that literally - it had a lot of downtime.

Anyway, the ProMix01 didn't sound great, but it was okay. The 03D was much better, and of course the 02R had sold... do hotcakes really sell well? But the Panasonic DA7 blew away the 03D - it sounded way better.


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