# Decision New Computer - Mac Pro 2013 / iMac 2017 / Mini 2018/ PC



## Arsenal (Nov 16, 2018)

Hello guys,

I understand there is already a thread ( https://vi-control.net/community/threads/2018-mac-mini-vs-refurb-mac-pro-cylinder.76726/ ) that has been solved but I am still undecided what would be the best solution for me.
Also I have been a secret reading lurker - This is my first post - I will introduce myself at another time or in a different thread.

*Thanks to everyone participating : )*

The current iMacs are still on gen. 7 intels but seem to have a lot to offer right now, also there will be a new Mac Pro released somewhen in 2019.


Right now I am torn between waiting for the new releases but during winter I will be able (or forced) to spend more time in my home studio as there are less out-side-of-the-house jobs for me in winter therefore a computer upgrade would come in handy.

Please note that I am currently not able to make a living from music production, my main income is still live audio engineering / event technician.
So i am not forced to upgrade per se but my current setup consisting only of my beloved 2012 mac mini i7 2,6 with 16 Gb Ram and external USB 3.0 SSDs in enclosures is really struggling (and getting *too loud under load *even with smcfancontrol).
Interface is a UA Apollo 8 thunderbolt and host most of my VIs in Vienna Ensemble (standard, not pro) - TB seems to be narrowing down the options. Selling the interface could be an idea but that would be extra headache.

-
1.)- Expand the current setup: with a second-hand offer _Mac Pro 5,1_ with single quad 2,8 Ghz SSD + Harddrives and currently on 11 Gb RAM for only 550 Euros used + 300 Euros for VE-Pro as a slave + 30 Euros for Dante. Seems to be a great solution but also as an unsexy one.

As long as I switched to Mac in 2013 I wanted to have an computer again that I can pimp myself kind of a project like back in back in the days but the lack of thunderbolt and need to upgrade for being a proper slave seem to make this solution outdated.
On the positive side there is additionally also using the _Mac Pro 5,1 _as a video slave.

-
2.)- Also keep the _2012 Mac Mini _and: get an _2018 Mac Mini_ max specs (+RAM self-upgrade later-on) + 300 Euros for VE-Pro (and Dante or use my ancient second interface phonic 808 universal)

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3.)- Sell the _2012 Mac Mini _and get a refurbished _Mac Pro 6,1_ with 6-Core GHz / 64 Gb Ram / 512 SSD flash for 2400 Euros. Could be the perfect solution as I wont need any adapters for my screens (24" and 32" both DVI + HDMI) and any adapters. This deal would feature 6 months of warranty.

Still the _Vader-Mac _seems to be an already doomed product as the _2018 Mac Mini _and the upcoming _iMacs_ / new-_new-Mac-Pros_ are already on the horizon.
For this deal there is no immanent need for a self-upgrade of the RAM as there is already 64 Gb RAM in it and 512 SSD will be more than plenty space for my system and DAW. Also I´d be basically done with upgrading etc for now.

-
4.)- Sell the _2012 Mac Mini _and get a new current iMac 27" 4,2 Ghz i7 with SSD for 2900 Euros. Upgrade the RAM later-on.

Of course the screen is tempting but if I look into the mirror.. I can live without the 27" 5k screen and be satisfied with my current two screens.
I kinda like this solution because it (of course) seems to be the most future-proof.
Noise under load is my main concern for this option.

-
5.)- Keep the damn _2012 Mac Mini_ and buy a _PC-slave + VE-Pro_.

This the completely rational route it seems to me still I dont know why I want to refrain from it. Maybe Apple has already got my soul.



Thank you in advance for your input! : )

Also I am very sorry if that has been a bad read as english is not my native language.


Cheers


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## Sami (Nov 16, 2018)

Build a hackintosh


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## Arsenal (Nov 16, 2018)

Sami said:


> Build a hackintosh



Thanks! : ) 


Still I as many of us tend to think that I already spend too much time f**king around with my templates /setup instead of proper composing as I used to do. 

Another work-in-progress like maintaining/setting up an hackintosh seems to be a great additional cost of time (and possible headache?) - But please correct me if this fear for no reason.


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## Sami (Nov 16, 2018)

You absolutely fear for no reason. If you can compose music, you are smart enough to build a hackintosh. They are extremely easy to build, compatibilty is fantastic and totally stable. I don’t see a reason to pay Apple any money at the moment. The choices are terrible. The imac pro is useless to us due to xeon and ecc, the imac is 2 generations old, the mini throttles, the laptops are overpriced and the trashcan... i won’t even.
I am running my whole work on a single machine, thrown out all the goddamn slave machines and when I am done working, I boot windows and play games. No brainer for me.


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## Arsenal (Nov 16, 2018)

Sami said:


> You absolutely fear for no reason. If you can compose music, you are smart enough to build a hackintosh. They are extremely easy to build, compatibilty is fantastic and totally stable. I don’t see a reason to pay Apple any money at the moment. The choices are terrible. The imac pro is useless to us due to xeon and ecc, the imac is 2 generations old, the mini throttles, the laptops are overpriced and the trashcan... i won’t even.
> I am running my whole work on a single machine, thrown out all the goddamn slave machines and when I am done working, I boot windows and play games. No brainer for me.



This is a valid point - Thank you. Especially the _Mac Mini _throttling at higher loads.

I sweared to myself to never get an Mini again as I am currently always watching the temps and loading/unloading parts of my template and computer setup while still being forced to hearing the Mini howl to very unpleasant levels of fan noise. Sometimes I just want to give him/her a break (and a cookie of course). That feeling somehow passed as the _2018 Mac Mini_ got announced with that fancy specs.

Trying Hackintosh sadly continues to seem inconvenient to me. Maybe too much voodoo for my reasonable amount of brain juice.

Why are you ruling out the trash-can-Vader as a valid option if I may ask?

Thank you again : )


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 16, 2018)

Arsenal said:


> Right now I am torn between waiting for the new releases but during winter I will be able (or forced) to spend more time in my home studio as there are less out-side-of-the-house jobs for me in winter therefore a computer upgrade would come in handy.



Well, this is perennial and obvious advice: there's always a new one around the corner, so you wait as long as you can to replace the current one. Barring that, it makes sense to find a machine you can re-sell for most of what you put in when a better one comes out.

So if it were me - and when it *was* me - I opted for option #1, only I would recommend finding a dual 6-core (12 total) 3.46 GHz machine with 64GB of RAM. And I wouldn't budge on any of those specs, because you can find machines that have them on ebay all the time.

You're not in Los Angeles, but look at https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-5-1-3-46GHz-12-Core-64GB-RAM-1TB-HDD-Nvidia-GT120-Sierra/223202415820?hash=item33f7e694cc:g:wbsAAOSw9V1aXUnM:rk:2:pf:1 (this) for example.


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## Sami (Nov 16, 2018)

Arsenal said:


> Why are you ruling out the trash-can-Vader as a valid option if I may ask?



I am strongly morally opposed to a 5 year old machine being sold for 3000+ Euros and I think Xeons and ECC are useless to us. The drives inside the trashcans are too small and upgrading them is too expensive and they don't have current generation I/O. You can beat the performance and the convenience of the trashcan with a 1000€ machine, even less if you buy used. I spent around 3000€ on my machine (i.e the base price of the trashcan with 128gb of storage) and I have: 14 cores at 4.5 GHz, 128GB of ddr4 3600, 1 tb of pcie, 4th of sata, 12tb of hdd and a vega 64, all inside a completely silent case which I can open up and upgrade, fix, whatever I want.
The moment Apple brings out a machine that adapts to MY needs instead of me having to adapt to Apple's offerings and frankly the parody that is their computer lineup, I am ordering immediately. Until then, I am building my own.


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## vocalnick (Nov 17, 2018)

Sami said:


> I am strongly morally opposed to a 5 year old machine being sold for 3000+ Euros and I think Xeons and ECC are useless to us.



I started the other "solved" thread that Arsenal mentioned earlier.

I've ended up going with a refurb Vader/Cylinder/Trashcan 6-core. I have to admit I didn't _love_ spending that sort of money for a 5 year old machine. But ultimately I figured it was the best option currently available for my needs (which includes some video work - making it a slightly easier choice).

I know the Xeon/ECC advantages aren't directly aligned with our requirements, but I think the broader design ethos of the machine is relevant - it's a workhorse, it's built from the ground up to run all day and not break.

If I had a year to kill I'd hold out to see what the new Mac Pro brings, but I don't need a new computer next year - I need it now.

I did briefly consider Hackintosh - I've built a couple over the years and they worked fairly well - but I was always nervous that it might stop working one day and I'd only have a forum to help me figure out why. That's cool for a general purpose or hobby machine, but simply not tenable for me when it's the main tool I use to pay the mortgage. If I'm on a deadline and the thing breaks, I don't want to troubleshoot - I want to drive to town, borrow/buy/rent a new version of the thing, plug in my backup drive, and get back to work again before lunch.


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## Sami (Nov 17, 2018)

vocalnick said:


> I started the other "solved" thread that Arsenal mentioned earlier.
> 
> I've ended up going with a refurb Vader/Cylinder/Trashcan 6-core. I have to admit I didn't _love_ spending that sort of money for a 5 year old machine. But ultimately I figured it was the best option currently available for my needs (which includes some video work - making it a slightly easier choice).
> 
> ...


 
I think the other way round: I have bills to pay and cannot afford spending any money on a machine which is not directly and fully aligned with my needs as a professional. The stability and performance of the hackintosh over the past year, especially for the money, has me so convinced that I would not go any other way at present.


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## Arsenal (Nov 17, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Well, this is perennial and obvious advice: there's always a new one around the corner, so you wait as long as you can to replace the current one. Barring that, it makes sense to find a machine you can re-sell for most of what you put in when a better one comes out.
> 
> So if it were me - and when it *was* me - I opted for option #1, only I would recommend finding a dual 6-core (12 total) 3.46 GHz machine with 64GB of RAM. And I wouldn't budge on any of those specs, because you can find machines that have them on ebay all the time.
> 
> You're not in Los Angeles, but look at https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-5-1-3-46GHz-12-Core-64GB-RAM-1TB-HDD-Nvidia-GT120-Sierra/223202415820?hash=item33f7e694cc:g:wbsAAOSw9V1aXUnM:rk:2:pf:1 (this) for example.



Thanks for the input : )
I was indeed making eyes at the 5,1 but the lack of thunderbolt upgradeability really sucks for me as my UA apollo is thunderbolt only. 
Of course selling it and getting a FW/USB one would be a solution (with extra effort because of the trading) - or buying a 5,1 purely as a slave - which could turn out to be not price effective as PCs can be had 
Anyone has thoughts on this? Thank you





Sami said:


> I am strongly morally opposed to a 5 year old machine being sold for 3000+ Euros and I think Xeons and ECC are useless to us. The drives inside the trashcans are too small and upgrading them is too expensive and they don't have current generation I/O. You can beat the performance and the convenience of the trashcan with a 1000€ machine, even less if you buy used. I spent around 3000€ on my machine (i.e the base price of the trashcan with 128gb of storage) and I have: 14 cores at 4.5 GHz, 128GB of ddr4 3600, 1 tb of pcie, 4th of sata, 12tb of hdd and a vega 64, all inside a completely silent case which I can open up and upgrade, fix, whatever I want.
> The moment Apple brings out a machine that adapts to MY needs instead of me having to adapt to Apple's offerings and frankly the parody that is their computer lineup, I am ordering immediately. Until then, I am building my own.



May I ask you how you accomplished and what parts you used to get such a beast of a machine to be silent? What kind of case?
Prices are a little difficult and cloudy to compare for me as US and EU prices are not strictly related / in relation to each other.


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## vocalnick (Nov 17, 2018)

Sami said:


> I think the other way round: I have bills to pay and cannot afford spending any money on a machine which is not directly and fully aligned with my needs as a professional. The stability and performance of the hackintosh over the past year, especially for the money, has me so convinced that I would not go any other way at present.



That's cool - horses for courses.

Hopefully between our disparate experiences, the OP is able to find the right path


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## Arsenal (Nov 17, 2018)

vocalnick said:


> I started the other "solved" thread that Arsenal mentioned earlier.
> 
> I've ended up going with a refurb Vader/Cylinder/Trashcan 6-core. I have to admit I didn't _love_ spending that sort of money for a 5 year old machine. But ultimately I figured it was the best option currently available for my needs (which includes some video work - making it a slightly easier choice).
> 
> ...



Yes, that also really bugs me - spending money on a 5 years old computer.
I dont do video (except playback for music production/composing) but I imagined a dedicated gpu (or in this case 2) would still be a great upgrade to the Mac Mini´s onboard-graphics as it would take load of the CPU. Am I correct on this?
Although I have other programs my main apps are Studio One 3.5, Reaper and Notion.


Irrationally I'm leaning towards burning serious cash onto the second-hand deal Mac Pro 6,1 with 64 Gb RAM 6-core 3,5 GHz for 2,6k Euros or getting a new 2017 iMac i7 4,2 (and upgrade RAM later-on).
Seems to me getting a 5K iMac would be a shiny gift for myself like getting fancy jewellery. Sexy, but expensive solution - but at least I could get warranty and TB3 (and spend extra on adapters/dongles..)

Eitherway keeping the Mini 2012 Quad i7 with just 16 Gb RAM as slave or even main should be avoided I think? Time to say good bye (or good buy haha) ?


Thanks everyone for your input and thoughts! Very appreciated.
My undecisiveness really sucks I know but the various options at this state of the market are kinda unclear to me.

The 5,1 Mac Pro seemed like a great idea and I would love to have a fully upgradeable by myself machine again but if we say the 6,1 is old then the 5,1 would be a even more risky option as it is now nearly 10 years old.
Future-proofing is not that unimportant to me as I used the 2012 Mac Mini for nearly 6 years as my main machine.


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## Sami (Nov 17, 2018)

@vocalnick thanks and same, always interesting to see other viewpoints, especially if the discussion is constructive and civilized, an unfortunate rarity in this forum.

@Arsenal: The machine is housed in a Phanteks Evolv ATX, I swapped the fans provided for Noctua 140mm PWM fans set to the „silent“ profile in the ASUS x299 Deluxe UEFI. The PSU is a Corsair 1600i. RAM is 8 sticks of Corsair 3600 Mhz CL 16 (I think). I have a Corsair H150i Pro 360mm radiator with the Corsair fans to cool the CPU attached to the CPU fan header but manually set to „Silent“ mode under Windows (dual booting, it saves the profile, sometimes it randomly seems to forget but I just set it again and it holds). The CPU is a custom delidded one by the german company Caseking and a guy called Roman Hartung alias der8auer who sells them and provides RMA etc. Siliconlottery do similar things. I paid around 1400 for the CPU which runs 4.5 GHz all cores at 1.17 Volts and under full synthetic load doesn‘t break 70°.
If a AIO is not to your liking, I am certain that similar or identical results can be achieved with a Noctua NH-D15 tower cooler, which is a product so good that I have bought 5 of them over the years and the longest running one has an estimated 100.000 hours on it during which time the fans broke exactly zero times and I had to clean it with compressed air and repaste the CPU exactly twice.


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## Arsenal (Nov 17, 2018)

Sami said:


> @vocalnick thanks and same, always interesting to see other viewpoints, especially if the discussion is constructive and civilized, an unfortunate rarity in this forum.
> 
> @Arsenal: The machine is housed in a Phanteks Evolv ATX, I swapped the fans provided for Noctua 140mm PWM fans set to the „silent“ profile in the ASUS x299 Deluxe UEFI. The PSU is a Corsair 1600i. RAM is 8 sticks of Corsair 3600 Mhz CL 16 (I think). I have a Corsair H150i Pro 360mm radiator with the Corsair fans to cool the CPU attached to the CPU fan header but manually set to „Silent“ mode under Windows (dual booting, it saves the profile, sometimes it randomly seems to forget but I just set it again and it holds). The CPU is a custom delidded one by the german company Caseking and a guy called Roman Hartung alias der8auer who sells them and provides RMA etc. Siliconlottery do similar things. I paid around 1400 for the CPU which runs 4.5 GHz all cores at 1.17 Volts and under full synthetic load doesn‘t break 70°.
> If a AIO is not to your liking, I am certain that similar or identical results can be achieved with a Noctua NH-D15 tower cooler, which is a product so good that I have bought 5 of them over the years and the longest running one has an estimated 100.000 hours on it during which time the fans broke exactly zero times and I had to clean it with compressed air and repaste the CPU exactly twice.



Damn, there seems to have been a lot of thought into that machine(s) and great specs! : )

Thank you for your deep insight and long reply!
I heard lots of positive words on the Noctua gear.

Still this level of perfectionism and know-how is overwhelming for me. 10 years ago was into custom PC building and nerding hardware out but now I am really overwhelmed which looks like I am already down the path to the plug-and-play mac crowd.

I currently can't wrap my head around the easiest but (somehow) most future-proof solution.
I kinda regret having bought the expensive apollo 8 thunderbolt as it now narrows down the options. It's a great interface and I had zero problems with it (except limited virtual channels) therefore I'm not keen on going the extra route and hassle of changing it in order to broaden the new-computer-options.

Really would appreciate even more input to this thread! Thanks again to Nick, vocalnick and Sami (and future participants)


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## Sami (Nov 17, 2018)

Arsenal said:


> Damn, there seems to have been a lot of thought into that machine(s) and great specs! : )
> 
> Thank you for your deep insight and long reply!
> I heard lots of positive words on the Noctua gear.
> ...


I hold a diploma in music composition and conducting and a Masters in computer engineering but I chose music as my day job :D I just had to study the stuff at some point, that‘s why I know about it. Thank you for the nice words Arsenal, I am glad to help with anything I can.


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## KMA (Nov 17, 2018)

@Sami Is there a favourite website on hackintosh that you would recommend for someone considering building one?

Hackintosh.com, perhaps?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 17, 2018)

Arsenal said:


> lack of thunderbolt



Ah, then that's the fatal flaw.


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## MarcelM (Nov 17, 2018)

KMA said:


> @Sami Is there a favourite website on hackintosh that you would recommend for someone considering building one?
> 
> Hackintosh.com, perhaps?



https://hackintosher.com
https://www.osx86.net
https://www.insanelymac.com


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## jbuhler (Nov 17, 2018)

Arsenal said:


> Seems to me getting a 5K iMac would be a shiny gift for myself like getting fancy jewellery. Sexy, but expensive solution - but at least I could get warranty and TB3 (and spend extra on adapters/dongles..)


I have the iMac i7, 4Ghz, with 32 GB late 2015, purchased new in spring 2016. It's holding up fine, though I need to expand the RAM. It's mostly quiet at the loads required for music production except for offline rendering of audio files, when the fan kicks on. The one issue I've had is that I can't put a studio monitors any closer than 18" to the iMac screen or I get interference. I don't know if that's a shielding issue with my monitors or the iMac, but I wasn't able to jury-rig a solution that would eliminate the interference so I had to alter the arrangement of my studio desk.


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## vocalnick (Nov 18, 2018)

Sami said:


> @vocalnick thanks and same, always interesting to see other viewpoints, especially if the discussion is constructive and civilized, an unfortunate rarity in this forum.



Haha, indeed...

I totally appreciate where you're coming from, and if I had your background I'd probably go the same way. I'm not a system-building neophyte, but my last full build was around the Core 2 Duo era, so I'm rusty at best!


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