# Ownership of the staffpad company



## sundrowned

Probably not that interesting but I looked up the company documents for staffpad and it looks like it was sold in February either to musescore or ultimate guitar the parent company of musescore. 

Documents here 





STAFFPAD LTD filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK


STAFFPAD LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity




find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk


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## jadi

sundrowned said:


> Probably not that interesting but I looked up the company documents for staffpad and it looks like it was sold in February either to musescore or ultimate guitar the parent company of musescore.
> 
> Documents here
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> STAFFPAD LTD filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK
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> 
> STAFFPAD LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity
> 
> 
> 
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> find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk


?? !! What will this mean for roadmap of the product?


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## Markrs

sundrowned said:


> Probably not that interesting but I looked up the company documents for staffpad and it looks like it was sold in February either to musescore or ultimate guitar the parent company of musescore.
> 
> Documents here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> STAFFPAD LTD filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK
> 
> 
> STAFFPAD LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk


Wow, that is very interesting, could we see musescore combined with Staffpad?!


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## Jett Hitt

A fellow StaffPadder called my attention to this a couple of weeks ago. Apparently, David William Hearn and Matthew Tesch will continue in their previous roles, but the future is most certainly not clear. I wondered about a combination of StaffPad and Musescore, but it doesn't make very much sense for a company to buy a product to incorporate it into a free one. The sale was unannounced, so they clearly have no intention of broadcasting their plans.


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## sundrowned

Jett Hitt said:


> A fellow StaffPadder called my attention to this a couple of weeks ago. Apparently, David William Hearn and Matthew Tesch will continue in their previous roles, but the future is most certainly not clear. I wondered about a combination of StaffPad and Musescore, but it doesn't make very much sense for a company to buy a product to incorporate it into a free one. The sale was unannounced, so they clearly have no intention of broadcasting their plans.



Doesn't musescore make money through their subscriptions to musescore.com? Which probably has a much bigger customer base than staffpad. And recurring income. 

I know better playback is something musescore is aiming for.

Seems like it would make some sense.


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## Markrs

Musescore also lacks a iOS version, it only has a viewer currently. That doesn't mean combining the 2, but they can now create a iOS version of Musescore more quickly. Which could then have either premium upgrades to improve music quality and/or they are incorporated into the subscription model. 

Just thinking this through. They could basically rebrand Staffpad as Musescore. The keep the Staffpad (rebranded Musescore) viewer free but incorporate the Musescore database of scores and then charge for the editing facility (I know this is free and open source on the desktop versions, but the code the iOS version would be based off wouldn't be) and the sample libraries. Or more likely these are bundled into a subscription.


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## Jett Hitt

Interesting thoughts here. I downloaded Musescore just to see what it was all about. Simple but very functional. Looks like about 1998. If StaffPad goes there, so will I.


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## gh0stwrit3r

What do you mean with?


Jett Hitt said:


> Looks like about 1998.


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## ed buller




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## MisteR

Can't decide if I have to scramble now to buy the Berlin libraries for Staffpad or if it will just be throwing money out the window.


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## emilio_n

MisteR said:


> Can't decide if I have to scramble now to buy the Berlin libraries for Staffpad or if it will just be throwing money out the window.


I thought to get the Cinesamples libraries during the 50% sale. Now I am confused...
Strange that they didn't announce anything. They used to announce at least the last updates on the software on the Staffpad blog, but nothing there since December of last year.


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## Markrs

Just in case anyone wanted to know that it looks like it is now owned by musescore or it's parent company, here is a screengrab of the PDF next to the new director.


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## prodigalson

Oy, staffpad is such an exciting and innovative product in many many ways. I really hope this doesn't severely impact the direction they were already going in


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## Markrs

emilio_n said:


> I thought to get the Cinesamples libraries during the 50% sale. Now I am confused...
> Strange that they didn't announce anything. They used to announce at least the last updates on the software on the Staffpad blog, but nothing there since December of last year.


These are the same thoughts I am having. I can easily see how staffpad could fit into a musescore based subscription service or both desktop and ipad


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## dcoscina

DWH has assured me StaffPad is NOT heading down the Avid/Sibelius or PreSonus/Notion path. That was quite comforting.


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## emilio_n

prodigalson said:


> Oy, staffpad is such an exciting and innovative product in many many ways. I really hope this doesn't severely impact the direction they were already going in


Maybe the change is positive but is a big surprise too...


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## Jett Hitt

If you have paid money for StaffPad and its in-app purchases, only Apple can take that away. So even if the new owners decide to discontinue the product (highly unlikely), you still have your Apple purchases. You might not get any future updates that make the app continue to work with the latest iOS. If this happened, I would just never again update my iPad. (I have no idea how things work on the Microsoft side.)

But there is no reason that the new owners would suddenly decide to stop making money off of the existing software. In no reasonable world would the current state of StaffPad be in jeopardy. And for my part, if it never received another update, I would continue to use it.

What is in question is how much the future vision of StaffPad will continue to be dictated by DWH. It is disconcerting that the sale of the app was not announced and a statement issued reassuring users of the future of the product. They had to know this would come out, and yet they chose to remain silent. This is, at best, a poor business decision. At worst, it is a nefarious plot by DAW manufactures to undermine the future of composers who actually read music.


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## Jett Hitt

gh0stwrit3r said:


> What do you mean with?


I just mean the interface looks like it was made in 1998.


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## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> If you have paid money for StaffPad and its in-app purchases, only Apple can take that away. So even if the new owners decide to discontinue the product (highly unlikely), you still have your Apple purchases. You might not get any future updates that make the app continue to work with the latest iOS. If this happened, I would just never again update my iPad. (I have no idea how things work on the Microsoft side.)
> 
> But there is no reason that the new owners would suddenly decide to stop making money off of the existing software. In no reasonable world would the current state of StaffPad be in jeopardy. And for my part, if it never received another update, I would continue to use it.
> 
> What is in question is how much the future vision of StaffPad will continue to be dictated by DWH. It is disconcerting that the sale of the app was not announced and a statement issued reassuring users of the future of the product. They had to know this would come out, and yet they chose to remain silent. This is, at best, a poor business decision. At worst, it is a nefarious plot by DAW manufactures to undermine the future of composers who actually read music.


I think that MuseScore still has its priorities on written music. but of course, it is stressful to not know the future of a product many of us have embraced wholeheartedly. I cannot speak for David, aside from referencing the reassurance from him when I brought this to his attention. I hope development continues in an exciting direction. that is what I'm focussing on.


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## d.healey

Jett Hitt said:


> I just mean the interface looks like it was made in 1998.


The year Sibelius 1 was released


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## ism

Jett Hitt said:


> If you have paid money for StaffPad and its in-app purchases, only Apple can take that away. So even if the new owners decide to discontinue the product (highly unlikely), you still have your Apple purchases. You might not get any future updates that make the app continue to work with the latest iOS. If this happened, I would just never again update my iPad. (I have no idea how things work on the Microsoft side.)


 
Yes, the problem is that at some point an iOS update will invariable break that app ... and if there isn't a living company behind it to fix it, then all the investment is lost. (Not updating you iPad isn't a good or realistic either, in the updates sometimes carry essential security content). 

I don't think there's any need to panic, but given the investments we have in the software (and for some, critical workflow), this really needs to be handled transparently ...


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## MadLad

ism said:


> Yes, the problem is that at some point an iOS update will invariable break that app ... and if there isn't a living company behind it to fix it, then all the investment is lost. (Not updating you iPad isn't a good or realistic either, in the updates sometimes carry essential security content).
> 
> I don't think there's any need to panic, but given the investments we have in the software (and for some, critical workflow), this really needs to be handled transparently ...


It definitely has to. Staffpad for me is the only way to professionally produce music and soundtracks for projects since I'll never be able to "create" music only in a DAW. I need that intermediate step in Staffpad that actually let's me get creative and does all the the work with the VST instruments I was never able to do in a DAW. The only thing I have to actually concentrate on after composing everything is the mixing and mastering.

Well and also the buttload of money I invested in the libraries. If this is going to be worthless someday on top of the fact that my sole means of professional music production is gone then I'm gonna be really angry.


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## Jett Hitt

ism said:


> Yes, the problem is that at some point an iOS update will invariable break that app ... and if there isn't a living company behind it to fix it, then all the investment is lost. (Not updating you iPad isn't a good or realistic either, in the updates sometimes carry essential security content).
> 
> I don't think there's any need to panic, but given the investments we have in the software (and for some, critical workflow), this really needs to be handled transparently ...


This has been handled very poorly, and this in and of itself is cause for alarm, given the investments that many of us have made into these libraries. You would hope that the powers that be would see this thread and make a statement.


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## ism

Perhaps the absence of an announcement is meant to communicate no change in the status quo.

Still, especially since Musecore is fundamentally aimed at a different type user, who's needs are not at all in harmony with the needs of the staffpad community or at least the portion of the staffed community that overlaps with vi-c, some kind of statement would be nice. 

That said, there could well be benefits for both communities. Perhaps even very great benefits ... depends on the business model.


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## visualride

Yes, Musescore looks like it was written in 1998. Horrible interface. 

The positives:
Quick import of Musescore vast midi library.

The negatives:
Musescore obviously made this purchase to add a reason to subscribe to their service. Since I do not do subscription services EVER, this will be a problem.


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## dcoscina

I think people are putting the baby out with the bathwater on this. Though public records do dispense a fair bit of info, we do not know the details of this acquisition and to what end David has active control over its development. 

At the end of the day, we will have to keep an open mind and be hopeful for the future of StaffPad. the likely reason DWH didn't announce this is because he didn't want to freak out a lot of faithful users of this app. Let's not look for smoke when there is no fire.


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## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> I think people are putting the baby out with the bathwater on this. Though public records do dispense a fair bit of info, we do not know the details of this acquisition and to what end David has active control over its development.
> 
> At the end of the day, we will have to keep an open mind and be hopeful for the future of StaffPad. the likely reason DWH didn't announce this is because he didn't want to freak out a lot of faithful users of this app. Let's not look for smoke when there is no fire.


Oh, I think we already see the smoke. The question is whether there is also fire. When one thinks about what happened to Sibelius, it leaves one feeling a bit unsettled. Actually, the same thing sort of happened to Finale when Coda Music sold to Make Music. New ownership could mean good things, i.e. more resources to develop the platform and expansion of the platform to new devices. But it could also mean terrible things. When I consider that I bought an $1100 iPad and spent $1500+ on libraries, I am more than a little concerned.


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## chrisr

I wonder if the 3rd party developers were notified?


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## visualride

The winner here is MuseScore, not StaffPad for sure. MuseScore bought StaffPad to upgrade their software tech portfolio, not to update StaffPad. The money is in the ugly, but functional MuseScore subscription model. I personally bought my iPad for the express purpose of using StaffPad. For my pitiful life, this was the past 12 months savings. I guess we can always keep our un-updated iPad version though.


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## ism

Yes, there’s no need for panic, but absent a statement, legitimate cause for concern.


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## stevebarden

I know that there is a an update forthcoming with many new features. The recent update addressed some bugs and included code to support these new features. It doesn't sound like the app is going away any time soon. Everybody take a deep breath.


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## ism

stevebarden said:


> It doesn't sound like the app is going away any time soon. Everybody take a deep breath.


Unless you have previous experience of a company you depend upon being acquired by corporate raiders and cannibalized for parts, or maybe killed by an excruciating process or starvation and neglect, or ... 

Anway, no need to panic. And if fact, some cause for cautious optimism.

But we need a statement. Absent a statement, no roadmaps can have any credibility following a corporate acquisition (if that's indeed what this ... basically nothing is particularly clear here).


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## emasters

Feels like familiar territory - Avid & Sibelius.... and we know how well that went. Hopefully Musescore has a better vision and the funds to continue developing Staffpad. Certainly one can envision synergies between the two companies and there's no reason it can't be a step forward with the right direction and leadership. Staffpad is such an innovative product -- hopefully the things that make it unique aren't lost in the shuffle.


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## visualride

As others here have mentioned there is a long history of software wallowing in purgatory till finally being discontinued. I’ll add my 3D experience to the mix with SoftImage and Discreet meeting a slow death after being gutted for software patents. Perhaps this is all nothing, but history shows that there is little chance that StaffPad and it’s users will come out ahead in the end of this.


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## Gabriel2013

dcoscina said:


> DWH has assured me StaffPad is NOT heading down the Avid/Sibelius or PreSonus/Notion path. That was quite comforting.


Thanks for the info, I can now go to sleep in peace.


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## Jett Hitt

I always thought that StaffPad would sell, but I hoped it would be to Apple.


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## Gabriel2013

stevebarden said:


> I know that there is a an update forthcoming with many new features. The recent update addressed some bugs and included code to support these new features. It doesn't sound like the app is going away any time soon. Everybody take a deep breath.


The wait is killing me...........


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## MisteR

Jett Hitt said:


> I always thought that StaffPad would sell, but I hoped it would be to Apple.


That might not be great. And I'm a lifelong Mac guy. Apple's not really a software company. They make software to sell their hardware. I always had faith they would support Logic because music was always the butter on their hardware bread. But in general... no. Anyway... I loved Shake.


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## tonaliszt

I don't see why the sale indicates a merger as some have speculated. Musescore's parent company has its hands in many pieces of music software which are run by different people. 

To consider that Staffpad was first developed when pen support on tablets was barely a thing, I think that this may be a play for the very long term (+5 years) when tablets with pen support become more of a replacement for computers.


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## Markrs

When you buy a company, you do so because you believe in the longer term you will gain more from it than you paid. Unless you want to mothball it as you have a competing product (you see that a lot in Silicon Valley companies).

If I am being honest I don't think the growth potential of Staffpad is huge from where it is now (especially as it is focused mainly on orchestral music and requiring pretty good music theory and notation skills to use it). However the tech behind turning notes on a staff into great sounding music is worth something. The fact it does this with smaller sample sizes than the original libraries is also very impressive.

If you added more instruments to it, and have the samples play from the cloud (this would save storage and really wouldn't be difficult) you could have amazing previews of scores. Licensing the samples might be the hard part. But as the samples could only be used in the product it is unlikely to cannibalize the sample library developers main market.

Though, saying that, the tech involved would work well in a DAW with the full sample libraries using the score/notation editor. It would then do an interpretation of what's in the score, which you can then tweak in the main DAW. So they could license the tech to DAW companies (you would still need to own any sample libraries you wanted to use). 

There are some good opportunities with this, that does not mean that Staffpad will disappear. However at the same time it is not improbably to suppose that it could be integrated into musescore and no longer developed as a separate product.

I was seriously thinking of getting Staffpad and the Cinesamples libraries whilst they were on sale. However I think I will hold off for now and see what happens.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Often when a company is acquired, they will post a blog post or something to acknowledge it and indicate the future direction. I always thought Steinberg should buy Staffpad given the momentum with Dorico.

Seems like the creators have lost control of the company - and probably the tech too. Maybe it was a cash out opportunity for them after working on it for years. Maybe sales weren’t enough for them to warrant the continued effort and they wanted to hand off the reins. TBD what the new owners will do (if anything). I didn’t buy any of the expansion libraries - though as stated above, they’ll continue to work as is with the current version.


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## Michael Antrum

I'm less worried about Staffpad than I am about Native Instruments. It's not as if Staffpad has been purchased by some hedge fund or investment group, but a company that is already dedicated to music notation.

I would hazard a guess that they wanted to get their hands on the excellent default playback from Staffpad and to incorporate that into Musescore.

If Staffpad had been acquired by Apple, the first thing they would have done is killed the Surface version, In some ways I kind of wish they had, as its the sort of beautiful app with little competition they would throw some resources at. It would hardly have been milk money to them, but it would have been tough for the PC Guys.

Although I'm not in the market, I looking forward to the new product being announced on Monday by Apple. I'm ready for a new Mac though, but its got to be at least 64gb, and I think I'm going to be disappointed......


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## gst98

If anyone hasn't already, check out Tantacrul on youtube. He was very critical of Musescore's design and now has been hired to revamp the whole thing to rival every other notation software. From watching the time he spent designing the new font I'm sure Staffpad is in good hands.


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## Michael Antrum

It just occurred to me that whilst I use Dorico, MuseScore might well be given file compatibility with Staffpad. This might make getting things from the iPad to the desktop a bit more seamless.....


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## ed buller

So I reached out to David and asked him to allay my concerns. He did. He is very much involved and confident that "the future of the app is now brighter!"......so I am happy and can't wait. I am pleased it's still basically his baby. Worry not !

best
ed


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## Jett Hitt

gst98 said:


> If anyone hasn't already, check out Tantacrul on youtube. He was very critical of Musescore's design and now has been hired to revamp the whole thing to rival every other notation software. From watching the time he spent designing the new font I'm sure Staffpad is in good hands.



A couple of weeks ago when I learned of the sale, I sought out everything I could find about Musescore, and I stumbled on this video. I felt much better after I watched it. The passion that went into designing that font spoke volumes to me. You have to know that StaffPad is DWH's baby, and you have to assume that he only sold to a like-minded person. It looks like we are in good hands with Tantacrul (Martin Keary). Time will tell.


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## gst98

Jett Hitt said:


> A couple of weeks ago when I learned of the sale, I sought out everything I could find about Musescore, and I stumbled on this video. I felt much better after I watched it. The passion that went into designing that font spoke volumes to me. You have to know that StaffPad is DWH's baby, and you have to assume that he only sold to a like-minded person. It looks like we are in good hands with Tantacrul (Martin Keary). Time will tell.



Yes I hope so. It sounds like Ultimate guitar are putting a lot of money into developing Musescore with Martin leading as designer


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## muratkayi

Markrs said:


> the tech involved would work well in a DAW with the full sample libraries using the score/notation editor.


From all I read the opposite is the case. DAWs all basically send MIDI to a VSTi regardless of wether from the piano roll, in realtime from a controller hardware or the notation editor and the good results of Staffpad's playback engine are based on it doing things like look ahead and sort out sample choice and order which is only possible by tailoring the sample libraries to its needs and most importantly giving up on realtime playback. 

So, I can't really see anything like a Staffpad playback plugin or something like that for DAWs


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## gamma-ut

ed buller said:


> So I reached out to David and asked him to allay my concerns. He did. He is very much involved and confident that "the future of the app is now brighter!"......so I am happy and can't wait. I am pleased it's still basically his baby. Worry not !
> 
> best
> ed


With the best will in the world, CEOs of recently acquired companies do not typically announce "it's game over, man" unless the takeover was especially hostile (which is tricky with private companies though not impossible when VCs are involved). Some will be on earn-out contracts; others will be heading off to do something new but are not keen to rock the boat because they will want to raise money for that something else.

EDIT: do'h, managed to confuse MuseScore with something else. Deleted that stuff.

However, things easily be better under the new ownership. One of the complaints I've noticed is the over-reliance on handwriting entry making some edits harder than they need to be. That might change with different priorities, particularly for collaborative writing where you're going to get people used to all manner of notation software.


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## gst98

Was pretty surprised to see David and Staffpad on the Apple keynote!


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## José Herring

As a part time Musescore user who is often afraid to use more complex notation software, I'm excited about the future of this product.


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## Composer 2021

StaffPad just appeared in the Apple Event, where they featured developers and users about the new iPad Pro. I don't think it's going anywhere.


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## ism

That’s quite reassuring ... though a statement would still be welcome.


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## MisteR

Composer 2021 said:


> StaffPad just appeared in the Apple Event, where they featured developers and users about the new iPad Pro. I don't think it's going anywhere.


That is reassuring. But... Anki.


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## rudi

Wow!! That made my day - it's going to be so interesting to see how Audacity is going to develop. 
It was also great to see the people behind it, and their unbounded enthusiasm!


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## wcreed51

Scoring Notes


A site about music notation software and related technology




www.scoringnotes.com













StaffPad acquired by Muse Group; audio support planned - Scoring Notes


StaffPad, the pen-and-touch notation app, has been acquired by Muse Group. Audio staves and music transcription are planned for future updates.




www.scoringnotes.com


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## sundrowned

wcreed51 said:


> Scoring Notes
> 
> 
> A site about music notation software and related technology
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> 
> www.scoringnotes.com
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> StaffPad acquired by Muse Group; audio support planned - Scoring Notes
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> StaffPad, the pen-and-touch notation app, has been acquired by Muse Group. Audio staves and music transcription are planned for future updates.
> 
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> www.scoringnotes.com




Sounds good. Audio support sometime during the year and audio transcription later in the year.


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## youngpokie

I am not sure how to feel about Staffpad roadmap for audio support.

I was looking at it as a notation component that I can integrate in a system that I set up, with the DAW of my own choice.

But it sounds like it wants to become a closed ecosystem not compatible with anything else, so we'll have to keep buying the same libraries twice until we have two fully functional DAWs on the same computer.

I'm really not a fan of closed systems. But I'm even more disappointed with Steinberg, who are not _racing_ to implement handwriting into Dorico and are not working _24/7_ to fully integrate Dorico and Cubase. That's not just myopic, it's irresponsible from the business standpoint.

EDIT: on second thought, I'm guessing I'll still be able to keep Staffpad as notation tool if I choose


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## Montisquirrel

Importing your own Audio is one of the main features I wish for since I have StaffPad. I just hope all features will be continued also on Windows, because in the text its all about Apple.


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## Jett Hitt

youngpokie said:


> I am not sure how to feel about Staffpad roadmap for audio support.
> 
> I was looking at it as a notation component that I can integrate in a system that I set up, with the DAW of my own choice.
> 
> But it sounds like it wants to become a closed ecosystem not compatible with anything else, so we'll have to keep buying the same libraries twice until we have two fully functional DAWs on the same computer.
> 
> I'm really not a fan of closed systems. But I'm even more disappointed with Steinberg, who are not _racing_ to implement handwriting into Dorico and are not working _24/7_ to fully integrate Dorico and Cubase. That's not just myopic, it's irresponsible from the business standpoint.
> 
> EDIT: on second thought, I'm guessing I'll still be able to keep Staffpad as notation tool if I choose


You can port the audio files to your DAW just like MIDI files (XML). It simply gives you the ability to work with audio within StaffPad. Perhaps someday StaffPad will be one-cart shopping, but as is, the audio quality isn't high enough to actually replace a DAW.

The most eye-opening statement to me was: "David says that more powerful devices like the M1 iPad Pro will allow the user to record directly onto an instrument staff. . . ." This suggests to me that my 2020 iPad Pro could soon be obsolete. Perhaps that is what has to happen to improve the overall audio quality of the current samples, but I don't relish the idea of buying a new iPad just yet.

I would love a version of StaffPad wherein I could truly leave my DAW behind, but I would also like the ability to use StaffPad on my desktop with actual samples--or at least samples that aren't pared down quite so much. I would also like to see some fairness in the treatment of current sample owners (speaking of a desktop or iPad Pro version now). I completely understand that the samples purchased for StaffPad are recreated anew for StaffPad (and we are lucky to have them), but I hate to imagine a world wherein high-quality samples are available for a powerful iPad Pro or a desktop version and I have to pay a third time for Berlin Strings and etc. It hardly seems equitable that current Berlin series owners would have to pay yet again for the same samples (admittedly re-edited). The future looks, bright, exciting, and expensive.

Edit: I should also add that I really hope future versions embrace multiple means of note entry, which remains a tedious process.


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## emasters

So many times I've wanted to take audio from my DAW and use it inside StaffPad. Right now, for me the process really only goes one way: StaffPad Export -> DAW, then add other elements. I'm very much looking forward to being able to create audio in my DAW at a given BPM, export it into StaffPad as audio, then integrate that into a larger StaffPad composition. Great feature for the StaffPad composition platform.


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## MadLad

> Importing your own Audio is one of the main features I wish for since I have StaffPad. I just hope all features will be continued also on Windows, because in the text its all about Apple.



Yeah, I use Staffpad on my surface and I really don't want them to favor apple just because it's the hip platform. Staffpad started out on Windows/Surface so they should at least put the same amount of effort in both OSs


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## muratkayi

It says "edit them directly on a score canvas using your Apple Pencil or Windows Pen" 
... so there is a direct reference to windows users. My mind is blown away by what is announced to be possible with audio alone. Transcription will also be very exciting. I do not expect that to work on my older windows device, but definitely expect it work on my gaming laptop. 

I don't really understand where the idea stems from that windows user will be left out and/or we will have to buy the same library again all over? Can someone explain why they think so?


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## youngpokie

Jett Hitt said:


> as is, the audio quality isn't high enough to actually replace a DAW.





Jett Hitt said:


> I really hope future versions embrace multiple means of note entry, which remains a tedious process.



That's a little bit what I'm worried about - they are adding DAW-like features before the one thing that put them on the map has been made rock solid and perfect. 

Remember, this company already went MIA for quite a long while once before. And now they have been acquired by someone who likely has his own roadmap and a role he wants Staffpad to play in it. (Of course, it could be that he's just another Russian Oligarch who's simply giving them money to do whatever they want...)

I suppose it comes down to what we want Staffpad to be. A notation and composition tool, a DAW replacement or both. There is always the risk it will end up being neither, but I hope at minimum I can use for what I need it to do, right? 

Anyway, I hope the positive vibe will rub off on me. I'm getting Staffpad today!!


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## Jett Hitt

youngpokie said:


> Anyway, I hope the positive vibe will rub off on me. I'm getting Staffpad today!!


Congratulations! To me, StaffPad is the most remarkable addition to the world of music technology since Finale, more than 30 years ago. It takes some patience and dedication to harness its power, but it is well worth the investment. To be successful, you have to learn to think like StaffPad. If you simply treat it like a pencil and paper, you will be terribly disappointed. Learn to take baby steps. Think of the beginning of each measure as an incremental process making StaffPad recognize your intentions along the way. The most common problem I see is people trying to write an entire measure in one go. Think of each measure as a slow-building process wherein StaffPad acknowledges your intent along the way and not just at the end.


----------



## ism

Yes, "gesture recognition" is a better mental model than "handwriting recognition".


----------



## ism

workedintheory said:


> StaffPad will continue innovating as an independent application, but one that becomes more and more integrated within a larger ecosystem. StaffPad playback will be coming to MuseScore 4.
> 
> You'll eventually see more compatibility and integration via cloud services. Record Audio in Audacity and bring to StaffPad as an audio staff. Since it is auto-saved in the cloud, just open it up in MuseScore and continue working.
> 
> It's a long road and a lot of work to get it there, but it will get there.


I think audacity (and Musescore) are GPL licenses, so I wonder if this will preclude this kind of integration


----------



## wcreed51

>> I just hope all features will be continued also on Windows, because in the text its all about Apple.

Windows tablets have always been able to do what the new iPads can do...


----------



## robcs

prodigalson said:


> Oy, staffpad is such an exciting and innovative product in many many ways. I really hope this doesn't severely impact the direction they were already going in


I don't see why it would. Musescore has been fairly aggressive in how it wanted to develop its own software, too. 

I'm actually more worried that the acquisition means Musecore will go in the direction of Staffpad - tying users into app-specific versions of libraries rather than the planned integration of VST playback. 

Hopefully, it'll go the other way and Staffpad will be able to play nicely with the libraries we've already bought - at least on the desktop. 

That could go a couple of ways:

1. (Not my favourite scenario, but here goes). You write in StaffPad on iPad, where you happen to have bought, say, one of the Spitfire libraries. You transfer it to Musescore on your desktop, where you've also bought the matching Spitfire library. Musescore recognises that and maps instruments across automatically

2. a Staffpad app that is aware of what desktop libraries you use and allows you to pick instruments from the full list, but maps them on the tablet to the instruments available for playback - kind of like the BBC SO ability to switch seamlessly between versions on different devices. 

#2 would be a great way to work. If you don't want to pay for the tablet-only libraries, you could just use the default library on the tablet app, and then transfer everything across to your desktop app for playback using 'real' libraries


----------



## robcs

MadLad said:


> If this is going to be worthless someday on top of the fact that my sole means of professional music production is gone then I'm gonna be really angry.


Over the years I've had lots of paid iPad software that became obsolete when Apple made an iOS update, or just disappeared altogether. Whether Musescore bought Staffpad or not, that is always a risk with any Apple app - and one of the reasons I've held off from buying Staffpad


----------



## MadLad

robcs said:


> Over the years I've had lots of paid iPad software that became obsolete when Apple made an iOS update, or just disappeared altogether. Whether Musescore bought Staffpad or not, that is always a risk with any Apple app - and one of the reasons I've held off from buying Staffpad


I'm on Surface. So compatibility problems are not as common as on apple. There are so many apps and software that I can still use on Windows, thanks to compatibility mode and what not. However, I would really prefer it, if they could support the app for a few more years instead of just scavenging it for parts.


----------



## robcs

MadLad said:


> I'm on Surface. So compatibility problems are not as common as on apple. There are so many apps and software that I can still use on Windows, thanks to compatibility mode and what not. However, I would really prefer it, if they could support the app for a few more years instead of just scavenging it for parts.


As an iPad pro and a Surface owner, I must admit if I had to buy on one of the platforms, it would probably be Surface.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I, too, have purchased a few apps that fell by the wayside with an Apple iOS update. (Hell, I even made one that did the same.) But StaffPad isn't going anywhere. DWH was just featured in a major Apple event. StaffPad is here to stay for a long while.


----------



## MadLad

That's all I ask for. For me, this was a MAJOR investement, so I would be disappointed if Staffpad slowly vanishes over time


----------



## gst98

When you say Staffpad Playback in Muscore, does that mean the Staffpad sample engine with Staffpad (1st and 3rd party) samples, or with vst3?


----------



## wcreed51

Will StaffPad continue to be distributed through the App Store/Ms Store, or will in join its stable mates as a downloadable installer?


----------



## Peros

will staffpad have another way of inputing notes maybe something similar to musescore?As much as i like the handwritting feature...sometimes just sometimes when the damn thing simply does not want to recognise a rest or accidental or dynamic marking, it kind of cuts the creative process and be a little frustrating BUT still looooove staffpad. Thank you


----------



## Peros

workedintheory said:


> Did you see this?
> 
> 
> If you have seen this one, also worth a read - https://www.staffpad.net/springing-forward



nope..will check immediately 👍


----------



## Peros

So wait...i’ll be able to play on my piano and have staffpad notate it in real-time???


----------



## Peros

will it work properly on the previous ipads as well or is it sonething that requires the M1 iPad??


----------



## Peros

but what does that mean for previous iPad generations...the updates won’t feature all this shiny new stuff? So basically i need to save up for the new iPad..


----------



## MadLad

Jett Hitt said:


> This is pretty exciting. As a long-time Finale user (1992), I never had much reason to look at Musescore. But the acquisition of StaffPad made me seek it out and explore the newest direction it is taking. The Leland font is beautiful, and the simplicity of the interface is refreshing. It is really a thirty-year dream that someone would integrate something like StaffPad with a notation program. The piano roll is the bane of my existence. It will never cease to amaze me that software companies chose to adopt an archaic model from the 1840s, one that saw its beginnings with the music box and climaxed with the player piano, over notation which has literally been developing for a thousand years. As a composer, what I want is the ability to harness the sound of libraries such as those by Orchestral Tools with notation. Get that piano roll off of my screen. No one has ever come closer to returning me, a composer, to my native language of notation than StaffPad. If somehow first-rate orchestral samples could finally be married with notation, that would be the ultimate.


Exactly. I've tried to learn how to program music with sample libraries in a DAW countless times to the point that it almost gave me PTSD, lol. I never made any progress and it always sounded like crap. On top of that, I never felt like actually making music. 

Staffpad's new approach finally helped me to get creative again. I now can take the music I put out there seriously. For example, I got into writing scores for video games again and this time, I can actually give clients a full product. It's great.


----------



## ism

dcoscina said:


> that's a bit of a drag but frankly, I don't need StaffPad to transcribe my piano fumblings anyhow. so long as the other tasty features aren't limited to the M1 iPad i'm fine. I just bought the ipad pro in 2020 so I'm not itching to drop another $1200 for a new one...


Presumably it might work on new mac m1 laptops also, which might be interesting if they choose to support this kind of workflow.


----------



## Jett Hitt

ism said:


> Presumably it might work on new mac m1 laptops also, which might be interesting if they choose to support this kind of workflow.


I would love to see StaffPad running on an M1 iteration of a computer, but so far they have resisted enabling StaffPad to do so. Admittedly, it would be pretty limited functionality without an alternative note entry method, but gosh, you gotta hope that is coming.


----------



## gst98

I imagine 3rd party developers won't be very eager to let the Staffpad samples be made available on a mac/pc (unless users pay the full price of the sample libraries).


----------



## Jett Hitt

gst98 said:


> I imagine 3rd party developers won't be very eager to let the Staffpad samples be made available on a mac/pc (unless users pay the full price of the sample libraries).


If you have to pay full price, then it needs to be the full library.


----------



## Gabriel2013

Just saw the announcement of Audio Staff and it sound really nice, this is one of my top request features but some kind of Time Code Staff or Video Import is a must for scoring directly from Staffpad.

One of the great potential that Staffpad have, is because of its amazing playback algorithm it will be accepted for showing cues to a film director/producer.
Sometimes the revisions per cue can be a lot even if you just changing a couple of bars.

I can see a lot of time saving using Staffpad for this pourpose even if the final score were to be recorded by a real musicians.

For a very low bugged film I can see it being scored by Staffpad.

cheers
g


----------



## muratkayi

Edit:

Gosh, I hadn't seen the exciting new posts in this thread, consider the previous content of my post obsolete. 

@workedintheory will the audio recognition/transcription feature work on (high performance) windows devices?


----------



## dcoscina

muratkayi said:


> Edit:
> 
> Gosh, I hadn't seen the exciting new posts in this thread, consider the previous content of my post obsolete.
> 
> @workedintheory will the audio recognition/transcription feature work on (high performance) windows devices?


I think it’s only for the iPad Pro M1 series...sadly


----------



## muratkayi

dcoscina said:


> I think it’s only for the iPad Pro M1 series...sadly


That would be sad indeed, but also quite baffling... What kind of wondrous things go on inside that processor that other CPUs can't do, I wonder?


----------



## gst98

muratkayi said:


> Edit:
> 
> Gosh, I hadn't seen the exciting new posts in this thread, consider the previous content of my post obsolete.
> 
> @workedintheory will the audio recognition/transcription feature work on (high performance) windows devices?


It probably utilises the neural engine on the M1 to do it in real-time (just a guess, but that is one of the unique things new to the M1). So it would only be a Windows device with a similar ARM chip like the M1 - assuming staffpad want to make it work.

Additionally, I recently saw a video from Andrew Huang where he said they weren't developing an android version of his new app, partly because event the flagship androids have much higher input latency, than any Apple device.


----------



## MisteR

I think there’s more than a few of us who bought an ipad pro to use staffpad. Buying another one a year later is crazy. It would be nice if they could figure out keyboard entry for the rest of us. Onscreen keyboard, not realtime, whatever. Current Ipad pro is capable of hooking up to a midi keyboard. It’s certainly powerful enough. There must be some way. The “only possible on M1” doesn’t make sense.


----------



## sundrowned

I read the transcription feature as being live on the new ipads but also possible on other devices once the audio has been processed.


----------



## Jett Hitt

sundrowned said:


> I read the transcription feature as being live on the new ipads but also possible on other devices once the audio has been processed.


This is the real question. Can you sit at the piano, play and record something, and then process the audio as MIDI after the fact with a lesser machine? I see no reason why this would have to be real-time.


----------



## sundrowned

Jett Hitt said:


> This is the real question. Can you sit at the piano, play and record something, and then process the audio as MIDI after the fact with a lesser machine? I see no reason why this would have to be real-time.


From the Staffpad blog 



> Coming later this year, we’re bringing audio recognition to StaffPad. This magical feature converts the audio you record or import into StaffPad into usable, useful notation. This works for polyphonic audio sources - like a real acoustic piano or guitar - so there's no need to lug around a MIDI keyboard. On more powerful devices, such as the new M1 iPad Pro, you can even record directly onto an instrument staff, and see the notes appear in realtime.



Sounds like post recording transcription will be possible.


----------



## Jett Hitt

sundrowned said:


> From the Staffpad blog
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like post recording transcription will be possible.


This was my understanding too until @workedintheory seemed to say no, but perhaps he was only referring to the full functionality of live transcription.


----------



## dcoscina

MisteR said:


> I think there’s more than a few of us who bought an ipad pro to use staffpad. Buying another one a year later is crazy. It would be nice if they could figure out keyboard entry for the rest of us. Onscreen keyboard, not realtime, whatever. Current Ipad pro is capable of hooking up to a midi keyboard. It’s certainly powerful enough. There must be some way. The “only possible on M1” doesn’t make sense.


I'm totally in the same boat and as you indicated, a lot of us are. I hope we aren't punished for being early adopters but it might be more a function of Apple's industry ideology more than StaffPad's.... we will have to wait and see.


----------



## MisteR

dcoscina said:


> I'm totally in the same boat and as you indicated, a lot of us are. I hope we aren't punished for being early adopters but it might be more a function of Apple's industry ideology more than StaffPad's.... we will have to wait and see.


Guess I’m confusing two different features here. Audio transcription is not what I meant. I really just want to be able to input notes via midi.


----------



## muratkayi

MisteR said:


> Guess I’m confusing two different features here. Audio transcription is not what I meant. I really just want to be able to input notes via midi.


Not to be a spoilsport, but from all I have heard and read, I really can't see that coming anytime soon. MIDI has never been designed to actually enter notation and thus requires a completeley different approach from what Staffpad has been trying (and successfully so) to provide. Also, the playback engine specifically (again, from what I have heard and read so far) benefits from its ability to neglect MIDI realtime entry of notes to queue and trigger samples, looking ahead and stuff like that.

Let's say it would really surprise me much


----------



## dcoscina

muratkayi said:


> Not to be a spoilsport, but from all I have heard and read, I really can't see that coming anytime soon. MIDI has never been designed to actually enter notation and thus requires a completeley different approach from what Staffpad has been trying (and successfully so) to provide. Also, the playback engine specifically (again, from what I have heard and read so far) benefits from its ability to neglect MIDI realtime entry of notes to queue and trigger samples, looking ahead and stuff like that.
> 
> Let's say it would really surprise me much


Don't get me wrong- I don't care if StaffPad ever gets MIDI as a note entry function.. this realtime audio thing I couldn't care less about either. I'm old school. I like writing in notes. The instant playback is fine for me. 

I wonder if DWH will ever consider doing his own custom orchestral library for StaffPad. He has the background (he worked with Alex Wallbank on the original Cinematic Strings) and one has to believe that a library that is tightly integrated into the fabric of StaffPad will ultimately benefit the user and developer (less disparate development teams required to manage the sample content).

I kinda hope this is the direction David and MuseScore is headed in personally. Just imagine if we got a tailored London Symphony Orchestra as playback option... shivers... [remember- Notion in 2005 drew its sample content FROM the LSO- so this is not as outrageous a prospect as one might think]


----------



## Jett Hitt

As a piano player of the complete hack variety, I am pretty excited about the transcription feature, assuming it works. I often improvise at the piano, and then I spend the next hour trying to work out what my left hand did on autopilot. It has the potential to be an invaluable tool.

StaffPad doesn't seem to be shy about embracing new technology and dragging us all kicking and screaming into the future. As I detailed above, I think a high-quality, proprietary orchestral library is what is necessary for both StaffPad and Musescore. It solves most of their problems, and it seems highly likely to me that the creation of such a library is already underway. In my past exchanges with DWH, he alluded to a new, higher-quality sound that was coming but was based on newer technology. As I reread those exchanges, I realize now that he already knew about the M1-based iPad Pro and that knowledge was the basis of his comments.

It might be that Muse Group is about to take the DAW world by storm. They will if they play their cards right. There are clearly some forward-looking people at work there. At one time, I had thought that Dorico was going to be the conduit to the future, but as the program slowly unfolded, the premise behind it seemed to be trapped in thinking from the year 2000. It had seemed obvious to me that it would be fully integrated into Cubase, but then that didn't happen. It seems to be little more than an efficient retooling of Finale and Sibelius. Musescore now seems headed in the direction that Dorico should have gone. If they harness the StaffPad playback engine and provide a professional level set of samples to accompany it, they will be at the head of the pack--way out in front actually. Personally, I find all of this very exciting.


----------



## Montisquirrel

On page 4 of this thread, regarding the question, if all new features will also come to windows, the official answer was "there is nothing to worry about"
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/ownership-of-the-staffpad-company.108422/post-4822958


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> It might be that Muse Group is about to take the DAW world by storm. They will if they play their cards right. There are clearly some forward-looking people at work there. At one time, I had thought that Dorico was going to be the conduit to the future, but as the program slowly unfolded, the premise behind it seemed to be trapped in thinking from the year 2000. It had seemed obvious to me that it would be fully integrated into Cubase, but then that didn't happen. It seems to be little more than an efficient retooling of Finale and Sibelius. Musescore now seems headed in the direction that Dorico should have gone. If they harness the StaffPad playback engine and provide a professional level set of samples to accompany it, they will be at the head of the pack--way out in front actually. Personally, I find all of this very exciting.


This. I agree too. While I've embraced Dorico, I'm at odds with it in some areas- it seems easy and direct in some cases (like mass adding dynamics to sections) and stupidly complex in others. It's an exercise in cognitive dissonance half the time. I miss the days of Passport Encore where you just plopped things down and there you go... 

If Muse and SP can simplify and refine this process where the technology gets out of the way in favor of creative workflow, I'm there.


----------



## sundrowned

Opening up the staffpad playback engine on musescore for 3rd party developers sounds very interesting.


----------



## Composer 2021

M1 iPad Pro looks exciting with this exclusive feature. Should I wait for the next M series iPad instead so I can have even more features?

Joking - I have an iPad 4th generation from 2012 and badly need an upgrade.


----------



## dcoscina

Composer 2021 said:


> M1 iPad Pro looks exciting with this exclusive feature. Should I wait for the next M series iPad instead so I can have even more features?
> 
> Joking - I have an iPad 4th generation from 2012 and badly need an upgrade.


I'm wishing I just lived with my Air 3 last year which I bought first but moved up to the Pro 11" 2020 because SP was unable to handle the density of my writing.. I've been called dense several times in my life so I wasn't surprised. LOL


----------



## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> I'm wishing I just lived with my Air 3 last year which I bought first but moved up to the Pro 11" 2020 because SP was unable to handle the density of my writing.. I've been called dense several times in my life so I wasn't surprised. LOL


Oh, you live and learn! But this time if you upgrade to the M1 iPad Pro, you won't have to upgrade again until the M2 comes out! I just keep trying to think about all the money I will save on a new Mac Pro and the latest library that I can't live without even though I will never use it.


----------



## Composer 2021

dcoscina said:


> I'm wishing I just lived with my Air 3 last year which I bought first but moved up to the Pro 11" 2020 because SP was unable to handle the density of my writing.. I've been called dense several times in my life so I wasn't surprised. LOL


iPad Air 3 has the same specs as the current entry-level iPad. Good to know that it isn't powerful enough.


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> Oh, you live and learn! But this time if you upgrade to the M1 iPad Pro, you won't have to upgrade again until the M2 comes out! I just keep trying to think about all the money I will save on a new Mac Pro and the latest library that I can't live without even though I will never use it.


Apple apparently is taking trades on the 2020 iPad Pros. Mine is valued at like $679 so that's ok I suppose.. but I guess I'm going to see how the StaffPad development shakes out in the next couple months. I don't want to drop another $600 and find out it's really not given me much more to work with on a daily basis... we can chase software and hardware all day and it really won't improve our music at the end of the day


----------



## gst98

You're absolutely right, and that sounds like a fantastic future. There is plenty of room for innovation in this industry, which certainly has high barriers to entry. It sounds like you're in the ideal position because it will need a big player in the market to make such changes.

I think there are of course _some_ things that will never change though, and I personally see what you have talked about, as being a _new_ market segment, which will be different to the current one that exists.

- The typical user who uses notation programs and Note performer (or even stock sounds) is very different to the modern media composer, who you could almost describe as a producer-composer hybrid. The latter being a much, much smaller market, but who is very particular over quality.

- There isn't much competition for Note Performer, and seemingly no demand for something like Note Performer Abbey Road Addition for example.

- Exclusivity is important to composers (at least in the professional world) but is a small market.

- Composer Cloud, for example, I'm sure is great for EW, and is of great value to the consumer - but it discourages innovation and investment, as a result, EW is not releasing products on the same timeline as SF or OT.

- Would need a new sample player for developers to work in and share that has capabilities to do what you have described as Kontakt currently does not support that. The main issue here is persuading devs to learn to use this in addition to Kontakt or even leave their own custom player.



Maybe one way to think of it is like mobile games vs console games. The iPhone has the largest games market and there is a lot of money to be made. Any games company would be foolish to ignore it. But the average mobile gamer has very different demands to the console gamer.

Long story short, I think this has huge potential, but I don't see it as replacing the current eco-system, as much as being complementary to it.


----------



## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> Apple apparently is taking trades on the 2020 iPad Pros. Mine is valued at like $679 so that's ok I suppose.. but I guess I'm going to see how the StaffPad development shakes out in the next couple months. I don't want to drop another $600 and find out it's really not given me much more to work with on a daily basis... we can chase software and hardware all day and it really won't improve our music at the end of the day


I am not sure where you got that number. My 2020 12.9 iPad Pro is only valued at $580, and that is the max Apple says they give.


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> I am not sure where you got that number. My 2020 12.9 iPad Pro is only valued at $580, and that is the max Apple says they give.


I’m in Canada- our shit costs more

I checked again. I can get $605 against a $999 iPad Pro 11” w 128gb ram. That’s still $400 to upgrade. And I have to shell out the full amount up front and send my older iPad in after to be reimbursed. Don’t love that


----------



## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> I’m in Canada- our shit costs more
> 
> I checked again. I can get $605 against a $999 iPad Pro 11” w 128gb ram. That’s still $400 to upgrade. And I have to shell out the full amount up front and send my older iPad in after to be reimbursed. Don’t love that


That’s a whole lot more special than what they are offering me.


----------



## Composer 2021

I wonder if getting more storage would help the trade-in price later? Like if I bought a 256 GB iPad Pro (base storage is 128) and kept trading in for new ones until the base model Pro comes with 256 GB someday.


----------



## Composer 2021

> *Anonymous said:*
> 
> I think the entire sales, distribution, and pricing model for sample libraries is outdated and wildly inefficient.
> 
> It is absolutely absurd to spend thousands or even hundreds of dollars on sample libraries (I say this as someone who actually owns thousands of dollars worth of sample libraries ).
> 
> Like pretty much everyone else in this forum, many of the libraries I own, I rarely use. But when I do use them, they are the exact perfect choice for that specific project. I *had* to have them.
> 
> But given the reality of infrequent use, what is the point of actually owning them?
> 
> There are other models out there, but the industry has not yet adopted them because of one fundamental barrier:
> 
> Lack of scale of any one distribution channel.
> 
> Simply put, there has not yet been a single distribution channel potentially large enough to transform the model and pricing structure for sample libraries.
> 
> But, by bringing StaffPad playback to MuseScore and adding VST3 support, along with expanded MIDI and VST3 support for Audacity, things start to get a bit more interesting.
> 
> With 12M MuseScore users and almost 100M+ Audacity users, there is suddenly a very, very different scale of channel.
> 
> Cross promote both applications to the Ultimate Guitar audience of 300M users, and you have a distribution channel on the scale of nothing else in the industry.
> 
> Opening this channel to 3rd parties allows entirely new opportunities for sample library creators, and frankly speaking, the potential for them to earn much, much more revenue than through traditional models.
> But this is a business of scale - low price, low margin, high volume... the polar opposite of the current high price, high margin, low volume approach. The very first thing that must change is their thinking about the market.
> 
> And with 7,500 new downloads off MuseScore per day and 1M downloads of Audacity per month, this channel is only going to continue to grow.


Exactly. With this and notation software, I simply don't understand what the hell these companies are thinking. Yes, professionals will pay that much, but one would think that the business model pf "low prices, wide adoption" would work better for everyone. It's like Apple charging 1,000 dollars for a monitor stand. They know professionals will pay for it, but not consumers. Sample libraries and notation software have become average consumer products now that the industry has become so diverse with the advancement of technology. It's time for major changes in these markets and I hope some industry players have the guts to rethink business models that can put your average consumer into poverty.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Composer 2021 said:


> I wonder if getting more storage would help the trade-in price later? Like if I bought a 256 GB iPad Pro (base storage is 128) and kept trading in for new ones until the base model Pro comes with 256 GB someday.


I don't think so. Mine is a 256, and though they are giving me the top price they offer, the implication is that they would not have given me more if I had the 1TB version.


----------



## muratkayi

While I personally enjoy being able to write down orchestral sections and e.g. hearing instantly what layering a melody sounds like in conjunction with other sections, for example (which btw is an extraordinary learning tool for orchestration), I think the main levelling force today is still MIDI triggered sample libraries.

People who never had a lesson in orchestration, composition, who never learned how to notate music, in many cases even people who either don't prefer using a keyboard or simply never learned to play the piano are producing orchestral music by hammering on a pad grid with free orchestral libraries and it's awesome.

Combining chord sets, arpeggiators and scale settings you can wield orchestral sections, field recordings and lofi drum kits *all from the same interface* in realtime.

Staffpad is awesome and I Iove it for how it complements my workflow, but when we're talking disruptive forces for music production, I can't really see written notation making any impact comparable to a 200€ groovebox full of free libraries


----------



## workedintheory

Just a short note here to clarify that my comments posted here are regarding a *personal* vision of where I see a potential future of the industry and are not any official position of the company that I work for.

My role is to simply imagine a possible future, many years in advance, but this does not necessarily mean that this is something that will become a reality. In fact, very often things evolve quite differently.

As such, I have removed any posts that might cause confusion or unnecessary concern.

I look forward to participating in the community as a fellow composer and enthusiast.


----------



## muratkayi

Nonono, we were given valid and reliable promises of revolutionary and potentially kinda free stuff and were basically just waiting for a realistic ETA from you! And now this?! I feel so confused.


----------



## Jett Hitt

workedintheory said:


> Just a short note here to clarify that my comments posted here are regarding a *personal* vision of where I see a potential future of the industry and are not any official position of the company that I work for.
> 
> My role is to simply imagine a possible future, many years in advance, but this does not necessarily mean that this is something that will become a reality. In fact, very often things evolve quite differently.
> 
> As such, I have removed any posts that might cause confusion or unnecessary concern.
> 
> If I am quoted in any post of yours, a redaction of the quote is much appreciated to avoid any further confusion.
> 
> I look forward to participating in the community as a fellow composer and enthusiast.


Have we've been played here? Now suddenly I am again fearful for the future of StaffPad. This entire sale/acquisition affair has been handled so poorly. It doesn't instill much confidence in the company. Going forward my advice to would-be users will have to be, "Wait, don't buy, as this ship may yet founder." There is no way to credibly advise anyone on which iPad to buy or which libraries because we are again in the dark. Clearly, there are big changes afoot, and the only thing one could tell a would-be user is, "If you buy, only buy the most powerful iPad Pro possible, as it may be the only thing that works in the near future, and don't buy any of those libraries because they will likely soon be obsolete." Though I would always tell someone to buy the most powerful iPad possible, the necessity of an iPad Pro instantly takes a lot of people out of the game.

I get that someone at StaffPad got their feathers ruffled by your post, but people are spending a lot of money here on a trip with an unknown, changing destination. It seems like they at least deserve a road map.


----------



## workedintheory

Jett Hitt said:


> Have we've been played here? Now suddenly I am again fearful for the future of StaffPad. This entire sale/acquisition affair has been handled so poorly. It doesn't instill much confidence in the company. Going forward my advice to would-be users will have to be, "Wait, don't buy, as this ship may yet founder." There is no way to credibly advise anyone on which iPad to buy or which libraries because we are again in the dark. Clearly, there are big changes afoot, and the only thing one could tell a would-be user is, "If you buy, only buy the most powerful iPad Pro possible, as it may be the only thing that works in the near future, and don't buy any of those libraries because they will likely soon be obsolete." Though I would always tell someone to buy the most powerful iPad possible, the necessity of an iPad Pro instantly takes a lot of people out of the game.
> 
> I get that someone at StaffPad got their feathers ruffled by your post, but people are spending a lot of money here on a trip with an unknown, changing destination. It seems like they at least deserve a road map.


There is nothing to worry about.

It is just that official communication through official channels will help to avoid any potential confusion in the future.


----------



## ism

Well I really appreciate this glimpse of this longer term, blue sky vision for the product and the ecosystem, however brief. And am feeling much reassured that Staffpad is in good hands.


----------



## dcoscina

muratkayi said:


> People who never had a lesson in orchestration, composition, who never learned how to notate music, in many cases even people who either don't prefer using a keyboard or simply never learned to play the piano are producing orchestral music by hammering on a pad grid with free orchestral libraries and it's awesome.


Heaven help them if they entertain the notion that they can print off their stuff and hand it to a real group. They will be in for a rude awakening.... And if that isn't their intention, then they should stick with production-based apps like any DAW on the market that is available... They don't need StaffPad...

I'm going to go controversial here and throw caution to the wind- why must everything cater to everyone, including the lowest common denominator?? StaffPad's original concept was excellent- get people familiar and comfortable with the nomenclature and language of music notation. Working in Staffpad without the benefit of a pitch reference helps with interval recognition and sight-reading. It can only strengthen and build one's skills and confidence. There are tons of other software apps that allow for a broader demographic of user.... why dilute the real appeal of StaffPad? 

Ok, let the obligatory responses about elitism fly...


----------



## muratkayi

Hey,

I was just pointing out that I think the most powerful movement for new entries into the world of orchestral programming/production is not happening with notation based apps right now. And yes, in that respect they absolutely do not need Staffpad. I am just saying it's fascinating. Also, if they have fun doing orchestral stuff, they might end up listening to more composers, try to get deeper into it and so on. And if they can churn out a track with woodwinds and a cello quartet and an unholy beat beneath it which is finished the way it is, just the better, imo.

As concerns "without pitch reference"
I can imagine that Mozart really just jotted down a gazillion voices and knew it would all just be tuttifrutti, but us lesser composers really like playback, be it through software or...you know... through the instruments. We play. When composing. Ehem.

All in all, I don't think that anyone is trying to get Staffpad to understand MIDI at the expense of those who can just write notation down. Also, I can't see the app going anywhere. Also, I can't see any signs of windows users being left behind. If that miracle chip can do stuff an intel chip can't, let's hope other platforms catch up.

All in all: We're fine, aren't we? Two major updates, probably this year, new features. Looking forward to it


----------



## dcoscina

muratkayi said:


> Hey,
> 
> I was just pointing out that I think the most powerful movement for new entries into the world of orchestral programming/production is not happening with notation based apps right now. And yes, in that respect they absolutely do not need Staffpad. I am just saying it's fascinating. Also, if they have fun doing orchestral stuff, they might end up listening to more composers, try to get deeper into it and so on. And if they can churn out a track with woodwinds and a cello quartet and an unholy beat beneath it which is finished the way it is, just the better, imo.
> 
> As concerns "without pitch reference"
> I can imagine that Mozart really just jotted down a gazillion voices and knew it would all just be tuttifrutti, but us lesser composers really like playback, be it through software or...you know... through the instruments. We play. When composing. Ehem.
> 
> All in all, I don't think that anyone is trying to get Staffpad to understand MIDI at the expense of those who can just write notation down. Also, I can't see the app going anywhere. Also, I can't see any signs of windows users being left behind. If that miracle chip can do stuff an intel chip can't, let's hope other platforms catch up.
> 
> All in all: We're fine, aren't we? Two major updates, probably this year, new features. Looking forward to it


Mozart wasn't the only one who had absolute pitch. Beethoven, Bartok, Liszt.. those guys. 

The issue I have with orchestral libraries and all this tech is that it often gives people a heightened sense of accomplishment... StaffPad and its ilk like Dorico or Sibelius (w. NotePerformer) don't make things sound amazing, especially if someone doesn't know their orchestration. If someone wants to learn, like seriously, try Adler's book, or Thomas Goss' online orchestration (YT) or attend orchestra performances (kinda hard these days, but prior to Covid, it was an excellent learning experience while supporting your local orchestra). 

I often compare learning music and its components to martial arts. When you begin, you suck. No two ways about it. Especially in some grappling arts like Judo and JJ. You will get dropped, choked, and submitted by higher ranks. It's like trying to fight against a tsunami. You aren't going to win. These experiences build resilience, determination, and light a fire in one's belly to improve. By having things too easy, people won't develop to their full potential. 

I'm just saying it would be nice for a company to continue to develop their tools for their original intended market/users and improve upon it rather than try to cater to everyone and the app suffers for it. Old adage- jack of all trades, master of none.


----------



## muratkayi

Do you feel, Staffpad caters to what you perceive as _not their intended user base _with that audio transcription feature? 

I was thinking that i don't really know when I would actually use that. When I am composing while/through playing, I consider stuff unfinished for a long long time until I notice I don't make changes anymore when I play it. If the app could reliably transcribe a polyphonic performance, that might very well be worth a try. But by then I know the piece inside out anyway and could probably jist write it down. Depends, I am really curious. 

If your misgivings are about the quality of the playback in general, because you feel that a notation or composition app should sound as bad as possible to sharpen one's sense of judgement, then I feel we are very much not on the same page, here, hahaha. 
Honestly, a good music app or a good piece of hardware can be as versatile, simple and inspiring as an instrument. And Staffpad does that now. 
I can play a guitar with two strings on it that is all wavey, because it has been used as an umbrella twice and have fun, but do I prefer one that sounds like hot butter? Yes. Yes, I do, thank you 

If what you are saying that people should be content with how Staffpad sounded back in 2015 when CPUs were made of wood, then I feel it sounds a bit like those rants that begin with "kids these days"  

Apart from that I also think that it is really really useful that Staffpad can now handle everything from drum ghost notes to intricate articulations and what not, because I really feel the level of what you can deliver with just a bit of post processing is really high and that is kind of pure magic if you think about iz


----------



## Elephant

https://www.scoringnotes.com/podcast/daniel-ray-muses-about-audacity-and-staffpad/ 

E


----------



## Jett Hitt

Elephant said:


> https://www.scoringnotes.com/podcast/daniel-ray-muses-about-audacity-and-staffpad/
> 
> E


Well that's pretty exciting.


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> Well that's pretty exciting.


is it? I finished the podcast and don't feel very optimistic about any of this. I will have to wait and see how these ideas materialize.


----------



## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> is it? I finished the podcast and don't feel very optimistic about any of this. I will have to wait and see how these ideas materialize.


Uh oh, what did I miss? I was pretty excited about the StaffPad technology coming to Musescore as well as the additional funding that was now at StaffPad's disposal. There were things that I didn't hear that were disappointing. It sounds like the StaffPad team will continue to work independently. I had hoped that some of Martin Keary's insight would be brought to bear, but it sounds like that isn't in the cards. I had hoped that a new set of eyes would evaluate the entry method. I would like to see a hybrid entry method wherein we could continue to use the pencil as it currently functions but also have the option to have more automated entry, such as the ability to choose the note value before touching the staff. It would save an awful lot of drawing. The pencil is great for entering simple passages, but when textures get thick, it is a real headache. Entering 32nd or 64th notes is a bit of a nightmare. You literally have to draw every detail all while praying that StaffPad recognizes what you have written when you have finished. Entering smaller values like this is so cumbersome. The most successful way to accomplish a measure full of 32nd or 64th notes is to start with larger values all on one pitch. Add the beams until you finally get a full beat of 32nd or 64th notes. Then lasso them and copy them to the subsequent beats until the measure is full. Now drag all of the notes to the correct pitches. It is a horribly inconvenient process. This could easily be simplified with a rhythmic palette that allowed you to choose the value and then just click on the staff. (Of course this would mean that StaffPad would have to develop an understanding of proper beaming, which it sorely lacks.) As it stands, however, we're left drawing on a tablet like 1st graders practicing our letters.


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> Uh oh, what did I miss? I was pretty excited about the StaffPad technology coming to Musescore as well as the additional funding that was now at StaffPad's disposal. There were things that I didn't hear that were disappointing. It sounds like the StaffPad team will continue to work independently. I had hoped that some of Martin Keary's insight would be brought to bear, but it sounds like that isn't in the cards. I had hoped that a new set of eyes would evaluate the entry method. I would like to see a hybrid entry method wherein we could continue to use the pencil as it currently functions but also have the option to have more automated entry, such as the ability to choose the note value before touching the staff. It would save an awful lot of drawing. The pencil is great for entering simple passages, but when textures get thick, it is a real headache. Entering 32nd or 64th notes is a bit of a nightmare. You literally have to draw every detail all while praying that StaffPad recognizes what you have written when you have finished. Entering smaller values like this is so cumbersome. The most successful way to accomplish a measure full of 32nd or 64th notes is to start with larger values all on one pitch. Add the beams until you finally get a full beat of 32nd or 64th notes. Then lasso them and copy them to the subsequent beats until the measure is full. Now drag all of the notes to the correct pitches. It is a horribly inconvenient process. This could easily be simplified with a rhythmic palette that allowed you to choose the value and then just click on the staff. (Of course this would mean that StaffPad would have to develop an understanding of proper beaming, which it sorely lacks.) As it stands, however, we're left drawing on a tablet like 1st graders practicing our letters.


The problem with too many drop downs is then StaffPad turns into Notion Pro.. which is fraught with its own workflow gaffes.. and I say this as someone who has used that app since 2005. On computer it's fine but on an ipad, all those drop down selections seriously hinder workflow. 

I won't presume to know everyone's challenge with handwriting recognition but I'm left handed and should be in that category of people with bigger challenges because of it, yet I've found notating in staffPad pretty seamless. I'm glad David added the mass articulations but of course, now that menu is far longer to scroll through as a result. Of course, it's always going to be a measure of developers trying to address the majority not the one-offs, so I figure Muse/Pad will continue to develop this technology to appeal to most people. 

Some of us will end up dropping off as a result methinks.


----------



## sundrowned

Jett Hitt said:


> I would like to see a hybrid entry method wherein we could continue to use the pencil as it currently functions but also have the option to have more automated entry, such as the ability to choose the note value before touching the staff.


Absolutely this. The thing that gets touted as staffpads usp (handwriting recognition) isn't it. It's the playback and portability. If anything the handwriting recognition is one of it's negatives.


----------



## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> The problem with too many drop downs is then StaffPad turns into Notion Pro.. which is fraught with its own workflow gaffes.. and I say this as someone who has used that app since 2005. On computer it's fine but on an ipad, all those drop down selections seriously hinder workflow.
> 
> I won't presume to know everyone's challenge with handwriting recognition but I'm left handed and should be in that category of people with bigger challenges because of it, yet I've found notating in staffPad pretty seamless. I'm glad David added the mass articulations but of course, now that menu is far longer to scroll through as a result. Of course, it's always going to be a measure of developers trying to address the majority not the one-offs, so I figure Muse/Pad will continue to develop this technology to appeal to most people.


I completely agree about drop down hell, but that can't be the tail that wags the dog. The addition of articulations was indeed welcome but poorly implemented in my opinion. That menu needs to have an A & B option so that some tools are in A and others in B (There could even be C & D.). As is, it is awfully long and requires too much scrolling. If you could just choose A, B, C, or D (like layers) at the start of the menu and have that determine which set of tools appeared, it would be so much more efficient. 



sundrowned said:


> If anything the handwriting recognition is one of it's negatives.


Hear, hear. If it weren't for the playback, StaffPad would just be another damned iPad app. Let's face it, none of us bought StaffPad because of the ability to write by hand. No, we heard that sound and then bought it and spent a lot of money on libraries for playback. Prior to StaffPad, I hadn't used a pencil in 30 years. I didn't enjoy it as a child, and I don't enjoy it now. Unfortunately, DWH is not receptive to change. He thinks the solution is educating people about how to use it (see the new tutorial in the last update) and perfecting the hand writing recognition. Everyone is trying to get to Rome, and the best way to facilitate that is by providing multiple avenues. As is, there is only one route, and it is more of a dirt road than a super highway.


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> Hear, hear. If it weren't for the playback, StaffPad would just be another damned iPad app. Let's face it, none of us bought StaffPad because of the ability to write by hand. No, we heard that sound and then bought it and spent a lot of money on libraries for playback. Prior to StaffPad, I hadn't used a pencil in 30 years. I didn't enjoy it as a child, and I don't enjoy it now. Unfortunately, DWH is not receptive to change. He thinks the solution is educating people about how to use it (see the new tutorial in the last update) and perfecting the hand writing recognition. Everyone is trying to get to Rome, and the best way to facilitate that is by providing multiple avenues. As is, there is only one route, and it is more of a dirt road than a super highway.


This is somewhat true. I jumped on SP in the MS Surface 2015 days. I returned the Surface because I find the ROI not worth it. It was difficult to read my handwriting and the sound pay-off wasn't there. When I heard the playback with Berlin add ons, then I jumped on the app because the pay off was there.


----------



## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> This is somewhat true. I jumped on SP in the MS Surface 2015 days. I returned the Surface because I find the ROI not worth it. It was difficult to read my handwriting and the sound pay-off wasn't there. When I heard the playback with Berlin add ons, then I jumped on the app because the pay off was there.


My story was nearly exactly the same. I bought the Surface Pro because of StaffPad in 2015. This was quite a leap for a Mac user. The pen broke in the first two hours. I had to wait 10 days for Microsoft to send me another. I then spent two days working with StaffPad. I found it to be a frustrating experience, and I failed to see how this was so much better than just using Finale. Then the pen broke again. I put the Surface Pro on eBay and didn't look back. When I saw a thread here on VI about the new iOS version, I thought, "Been there, done that." And then I kept seeing that thread for several months. I started asking myself what all the excitement was about. Finally I read the thread and heard the sound. Before I knew it, I was out $2500. StaffPad is brilliant, but it is the sound that is brilliant. Nothing else about it attracted me. There have been some fantastic innovations along the way. The ability to drag a notehead and change the duration was incredible. (Still don't know why I can't do this with rests.) Same with dynamic markings. It is an amazing tool, and it has the potential to be much much better. As things stand, though, handwriting is like a millstone around its neck.


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> My story was nearly exactly the same. I bought the Surface Pro because of StaffPad in 2015. This was quite a leap for a Mac user. The pen broke in the first two hours. I had to wait 10 days for Microsoft to send me another. I then spent two days working with StaffPad. I found it to be a frustrating experience, and I failed to see how this was so much better than just using Finale. Then the pen broke again. I put the Surface Pro on eBay and didn't look back. When I saw a thread here on VI about the new iOS version, I thought, "Been there, done that." And then I kept seeing that thread for several months. I started asking myself what all the excitement was about. Finally I read the thread and heard the sound. Before I knew it, I was out $2500. StaffPad is brilliant, but it is the sound that is brilliant. Nothing else about it attracted me. There have been some fantastic innovations along the way. The ability to drag a notehead and change the duration was incredible. (Still don't know why I can't do this with rests.) Same with dynamic markings. It is an amazing tool, and it has the potential to be much much better. As things stand, though, handwriting is like a millstone around its neck.


I'm assuming DWH and the development team will still make this a tiered thing. If some people like the handwriting, they can continue to do so. Those who wish for the other options can use them. I could see resorting to help occasionally if the handwriting is being fussy on a particular thing. 

If MuseScore does end up turning into a compositional app not just an engraving one which Daniel indicated in that podcast, with the ability to use the StaffPad library sounds as playback, I could see switching to MuseScore. However, I would hope they didn't ding users for a third time to upgrade the sounds.... that would be a deal-breaker for many. I was fine with paying for the SP libraries because they were tailored for SP but not again for desktop... that would be asking a lot...


----------



## muratkayi

I would like to point out that I specifically bought Staffpad for the handwriting method. My previous experiences with keyboard based entry methods were ok, but similar to typing certain texts and using a pen for others I was very keen on trying it and liked it. 

Also, with the major update after the hiatus I found the recognition improved and liked it even more. 

Of course, the playback engine was immediately haunting my waking dreams and I kinda happily shelved out money for that combination of sound and handwriting. 

I listened to the podcast and while I did not find the talk exciting I can't see what the worries are about. 
But I do think that before you say "none of us bought it for the handwriting" you should consider it altogether possible that the majority of users is kinda happy with it.


----------



## Jett Hitt

muratkayi said:


> I would like to point out that I specifically bought Staffpad for the handwriting method. My previous experiences with keyboard based entry methods were ok, but similar to typing certain texts and using a pen for others I was very keen on trying it and liked it.
> 
> Also, with the major update after the hiatus I found the recognition improved and liked it even more.
> 
> Of course, the playback engine was immediately haunting my waking dreams and I kinda happily shelved out money for that combination of sound and handwriting.
> 
> I listened to the podcast and while I did not find the talk exciting I can't see what the worries are about.
> But I do think that before you say "none of us bought it for the handwriting" you should consider it altogether possible that the majority of users is kinda happy with it.


Sure, maybe a few bought it for the handwriting facet, but the app existed for five years before the addition of the 3rd party libraries. That is what made it explode, not the handwriting capability.


----------



## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> Sure, maybe a few bought it for the handwriting facet, but the app existed for five years before the addition of the 3rd party libraries. That is what made it explode, not the handwriting capability.


Well also the advent of it being iOS compatible with less stupidities of the windows version. 😜


----------



## jonathanparham

Jett Hitt said:


> Finally I read the thread and heard the sound. Before I knew it, I was out $2500. StaffPad is brilliant, but it is the sound that is brilliant. Nothing else about it attracted me. There have been some fantastic innovations along the way. The ability to drag a notehead and change the duration was incredible. (Still don't know why I can't do this with rests.) Same with dynamic markings. It is an amazing tool, and it has the potential to be much much better. As things stand, though, handwriting is like a millstone around its neck.


Well for me not quite. I was same, got a surface Pro for staffpad in 2015 and put it down, but pulled out it out agina as I wanted to get better at orchestration. There are some things I notate better than programming CC's. That just where I am in my music. Musically I know what I want, but get tired of programming stuff, and depending on the 'latest' library to give me the sound. Let alone loading templates just to pull out a few lines.
Also, this is why I follow VIcontrol, didn't know about the 3rd party libraries until I heard some of yall talk about it. Love love the sound. StaffPad has slowed my GAS tremendously.
Also the thing with being able toi drag notes but not rests, drives me crazy. Now if we could just add timecode, MTC, and maybe a sampler . . . .


----------



## jadi

dcoscina said:


> Well also the advent of it being iOS compatible with less stupidities of the windows version. 😜


Speaking for myself, for me is and IOS and handwriting in combination with realistic playback the thing. As StaffPad is, is just perfect for me. Most valuable for me would be improving on those. So further developping playback (f.e. articulations, muted horns etc.) and handwriting (tools). Stepwize play back would also be nice to more exactly hear what is been played on a beat. Chord utility should be better. That kind of stuff for me


----------



## muratkayi

Guys,

sorrows and the question wether or not handwriting is the bane of our existence aside for the moment:

What are you going to do with Staffpad when Audio staffs come? What are the things you wanted to do, but couldn't? I am really excited about this, much more so than transcription I have to say.


----------



## wcreed51

The thing I really want is the ablility to copy and paste the controller data, either along with notes, or just by itself.


----------



## Montisquirrel

muratkayi said:


> Guys,
> 
> sorrows and the question wether or not handwriting is the bane of our existence aside for the moment:
> 
> What are you going to do with Staffpad when Audio staffs come? What are the things you wanted to do, but couldn't? I am really excited about this, much more so than transcription I have to say.


My music often is a mix of orchestral and eletronic music, so I look forward to add the eletronic part (drum'n'bass or some sort of neuro bass stuff) to Staffpad.


----------



## mopsiflopsi

To add to the handwriting debate: Notion was the first notation app I installed on my iPad. It has better handwriting recognition than SP. And I’m using it 0% of the time now because it has a cumbersome UI bogged down in menus and tabs. I’d hate to see SP become that. It’s not perfect, but then again perfection is the enemy of greatness.


----------



## mopsiflopsi

One thing I’d really appreciate as an improvement though is the ability to change what CC channel automation data is written into.


----------



## jadi

Upgrade of the organ library so you can use registers. more syllables for voice library. exporting drum midi/music xml to StaffPad for writing a popsong


----------



## Jett Hitt

Yesterday the Scoring Notes podcast addressed the four principal notation programs, one of which was Musescore. Inevitably, there was some peripheral information about StaffPad. There was some seemingly informed speculation that the StaffPad playback engine would come to Musescore as a paid upgrade. It seems likely that any additional high-quality libraries would also fall into that domain. I find it highly unlikely that pre-purchased StaffPad libraries could be used without paying again.


----------



## mopsiflopsi

Jett Hitt said:


> I find it highly unlikely that pre-purchased StaffPad libraries could be used without paying again.


I will have a very bad taste in my mouth if I'm asked to pay for the same content again.


----------



## wcreed51

If they're sold through the MS Store/App store I would think that you wouldn't have to pay again


----------



## Jett Hitt

mopsiflopsi said:


> I will have a very bad taste in my mouth if I'm asked to pay for the same content again.


Agreed. I've already paid for most of these libraries twice. A third time would be a real slap in the face. Problem is, however, that the developers might have no incentive to extend the license to additional platforms. In @workedintheory's now deleted posts, he alluded to a user base of 12 million, which could be a pretty good incentive. Since StaffPad isn't enabled to run on the Mac OS (for whatever reason), no one really knows whether these libraries would even work in Mac OS on the Apple side of things. As far as I understand, they already fully function in a Windows environment. It was stated (again deleted post) that initially the sounds would all be proprietary. So in the beginning, Musescore users will probably be stuck with something like the onboard StaffPad sounds.


----------



## MadLad

Jett Hitt said:


> As far as I understand, they already fully function in a Windows environment. It was stated (again deleted post) that initially the sounds would all be proprietary. So in the beginning, Musescore users will probably be stuck with something like the onboard StaffPad sounds.


This is kind of hit and miss. I have no problems running the add-on libraries on my Surface where it, of course, was intended to run. However, on my gaming laptop which has overall far superior specs the add-on libraries don't run at all. You sometimes get slapping sounds but that's it. I'm also 100% sure it can't be my system since everything else, my DAW, etc. runs without any problems at all.


----------



## wcreed51

I have no problem using the addin libraries on my desktop.

In the SraffPad store, scroll to the bottom and click on Download & Updates. It should refresh all your libraries. See if that fixes the problems


----------



## wcreed51

Here's something else they have in the pipeline:









MuseClass | All your music assignments, in one place.


Create, distribute, and grade music assignments. All in one place.




museclass.com






https://www.notion.so/UI-UX-Designer-e832e673e75c4d1ca51b472170a015a0


----------



## MadLad

wcreed51 said:


> I have no problem using the addin libraries on my desktop.
> 
> In the SraffPad store, scroll to the bottom and click on Download & Updates. It should refresh all your libraries. See if that fixes the problems


Tried that already. Basically tried everything, even wrote support a couple of times. It's just not working


----------



## David Cuny

mopsiflopsi said:


> It’s not perfect, but then again perfection is the enemy of greatness.


Funny, I thought the expression was _Perfect is the enemy of good. _

That, and _Perfect is the enemy of done._

Perfection is often the companion of great, but sometimes _good enough_ is... well, good enough.


----------



## muratkayi

My ex-boss used to say "I'll take 70% now over 100% never." - really toned down on perfectionism after that.


----------



## dcoscina

muratkayi said:


> Guys,
> 
> sorrows and the question wether or not handwriting is the bane of our existence aside for the moment:
> 
> What are you going to do with Staffpad when Audio staffs come? What are the things you wanted to do, but couldn't? I am really excited about this, much more so than transcription I have to say.


Won’t use audio staffs… I personally have no need for them


----------



## dcoscina

mopsiflopsi said:


> To add to the handwriting debate: Notion was the first notation app I installed on my iPad. It has better handwriting recognition than SP. And I’m using it 0% of the time now because it has a cumbersome UI bogged down in menus and tabs. I’d hate to see SP become that. It’s not perfect, but then again perfection is the enemy of greatness.


Totally agree. I was an ardent supporter and user of Notion but it’s plethora of menus just killed it’s use to me.

Staffpad might have wonky hand writing recognition but I still find it more immediate and creatively inspiring


----------



## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> Totally agree. I was an ardent supporter and user of Notion but it’s plethora of menus just killed it’s use to me.
> 
> Staffpad might have wonky hand writing recognition but I still find it more immediate and creatively inspiring


I agree that that Notion became increasingly messy as they added features, but your argument seems to be: Notion did things poorly therefore StaffPad must also do things poorly. 

I will admit that StaffPad's current menu layout doesn't instill a lot of confidence. It is not a very judicious use of space. The main editing menu has Layers taking up prime real estate. This is a feature that I some times use, but it should hardly be on the main menu. Also on this menu are the Reader and the Metronome. Really? WTF? Why do I need a metronome in an app that has no performance input? And the Reader? Who ever uses this? It is a cool idea, but what are the chances that you will ever be in a rehearsal with an orchestra outfitted with tablets? And yet it is on the main editing menu. Meanwhile, one of the most used features, undo/redo, is on another menu so that you are constantly having to switch to that menu. DWH doesn't use this feature, so he could care less. He uses press/swipe to undo. And this is really cool when it works, but a lot of times it doesn't. Instead of undoing what you've just done, it scrolls to the end of the score. 

After seeing Martin Keary's video about the redesign of Musescore, I had hoped that his insight would be applied to the StaffPad interface, which sorely needs a new set of eyes.


----------



## muratkayi

Jett Hitt said:


> Why do I need a metronome in an app that has no performance input?


In the blog DWH writes that Staffpad was designed for subsequent audio support from day one and that that is the reason "why we give such prominence to the metronome icon."


----------



## Jett Hitt

muratkayi said:


> In the blog DWH writes that Staffpad was designed for subsequent audio support from day one and that that is the reason "why we give such prominence to the metronome icon."


Ok, cool! Why is it on the main menu?


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## muratkayi

I don't know...Hang on, let me write an e-mail...:D


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## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> I agree that that Notion became increasingly messy as they added features, but your argument seems to be: Notion did things poorly therefore StaffPad must also do things poorly.
> 
> I will admit that StaffPad's current menu layout doesn't instill a lot of confidence. It is not a very judicious use of space. The main editing menu has Layers taking up prime real estate. This is a feature that I some times use, but it should hardly be on the main menu. Also on this menu are the Reader and the Metronome. Really? WTF? Why do I need a metronome in an app that has no performance input? And the Reader? Who ever uses this? It is a cool idea, but what are the chances that you will ever be in a rehearsal with an orchestra outfitted with tablets? And yet it is on the main editing menu. Meanwhile, one of the most used features, undo/redo, is on another menu so that you are constantly having to switch to that menu. DWH doesn't use this feature, so he could care less. He uses press/swipe to undo. And this is really cool when it works, but a lot of times it doesn't. Instead of undoing what you've just done, it scrolls to the end of the score.
> 
> After seeing Martin Keary's video about the redesign of Musescore, I had hoped that his insight would be applied to the StaffPad interface, which sorely needs a new set of eyes.


I worked in MuseScore last night and it was stupid easy to get around on. I had to do some examples of Goldsmith’s themes from Legend for an upcoming podcast and i loved the camera capture option to grab those sections and copy to a Google document. Anytime I didn’t know what to do, I looked it up and found the answer in record time. Unlike Dorico which has some brutal long explanations.

I’m actually very optimistic about Musescore. If they can figure out a way to add SP playback and cross compatibility with the mobile app version this might be a killer combo.


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## wcreed51

But if audio transcription depends on the M1 chip, how could that have been planned from the beginning? If he means audio tracks, why would you need a metronome for that?


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## muratkayi

wcreed51 said:


> But if audio transcription depends on the M1 chip, how could that have been planned from the beginning? If he means audio tracks, why would you need a metronome for that?


audio "support" was planned from the beginning. I think the transcription thing was born later on. And from what I read it does not depend on the M1 if you do not need it to be real-time. If you do need it real-time it says more powerful devices "like the M1".
Here is the link, it's an interesting read

as concerns metronomes for audio tracks I envision this:
your cue is a mess of tempo fluctuations and odd meters to make what once was a beautiful melody fit into the latest of ca. 30 changes the director made to the scene in question, even though he only two days ago swore a terrible oath that the file finalfinal23.mov will not be changed again. You receive finalfinal24.mov and you know only a tibetan bagpipe made from dried goat udder can unify the bits and pieces and save the day. Spitfire have announced a sampled library to that effect for later that year, but you can't wait. In the twilight of a tajikian restaurant money and instrument change hands. You fire up Staffpad and find the metronome conveniently and prominently shoved into your face and it guides you through the recording session like a beacon over troubled water.
Staffpad audio support saved the day and you light a candle for either MuseGroup or David, depending on your confession.


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## wcreed51

I know David said "Like M1", but whoever the mystery dude was on here from the MuseGroup said specifically M1


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## muratkayi

yes, that was kinda unsettling. I am hoping for not quite that much of device dependency...


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## wcreed51

Me too!


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## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> I worked in MuseScore last night and it was stupid easy to get around on. I had to do some examples of Goldsmith’s themes from Legend for an upcoming podcast and i loved the camera capture option to grab those sections and copy to a Google document. Anytime I didn’t know what to do, I looked it up and found the answer in record time. Unlike Dorico which has some brutal long explanations.
> 
> I’m actually very optimistic about Musescore. If they can figure out a way to add SP playback and cross compatibility with the mobile app version this might be a killer combo.


My interaction with Musescore has been very limited. I have used Finale for so long that I can do it in my sleep, so I have little incentive to use Musescore--not yet anyway. As you know, however, I did download it and play with it. The simplicity of it was a breath of fresh air. By contrast, Dorico blew my mind. Some things were better, but mostly I found it to be horrifically complex. This is Spreadberry's vision of the future? Heaven help us.

I wonder if these people ever talk to composers? StaffPad at least has the decided advantage of DWH being a composer. As a result of this, you instantly get 80% of what you need as a composer right upfront. Most notably, you get notation with fantastic playback. I may appear to be terribly critical of StaffPad, but I adore it and use it every day. As a result of this, I intimately understand its flaws.


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## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> My interaction with Musescore has been very limited. I have used Finale for so long that I can do it in my sleep, so I have little incentive to use Musescore--not yet anyway. As you know, however, I did download it and play with it. The simplicity of it was a breath of fresh air. By contrast, Dorico blew my mind. Some things were better, but mostly I found it to be horrifically complex. This is Spreadberry's vision of the future? Heaven help us.
> 
> I wonder if these people ever talk to composers? StaffPad at least has the decided advantage of DWH being a composer. As a result of this, you instantly get 80% of what you need as a composer right upfront. Most notably, you get notation with fantastic playback. I may appear to be terribly critical of StaffPad, but I adore it and use it every day. As a result of this, I intimately understand its flaws.


I think with Keavy at the helm of MuseScore, it's likely to be developed into a very good composing app. Dorico is quite lovely in many ways but as Keary explains in his Tanticrul YT persona, it forces the composer to work the way IT wants you to, rather than Sibelius which gets out of your way most of the time. Keary is a composer so I think he's bringing that to the table insofar as development of MuseScore. 

I like Dorico, don't get me wrong. I think it's cool and does some things waaaaay better than Sibelius. but for simple things, it's overly complex when it doesn't have to be. Dorico seems like it wants to bring in playback strengths from Cubase so it too can be everything to everyone. I still find this a fatal flaw in their ideology. This seems to have befallen all of the notation app developers...


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## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> I think with Keavy at the helm of MuseScore, it's likely to be developed into a very good composing app. Dorico is quite lovely in many ways but as Keary explains in his Tanticrul YT persona, it forces the composer to work the way IT wants you to, rather than Sibelius which gets out of your way most of the time. Keary is a composer so I think he's bringing that to the table insofar as development of MuseScore.
> 
> I like Dorico, don't get me wrong. I think it's cool and does some things waaaaay better than Sibelius. but for simple things, it's overly complex when it doesn't have to be. Dorico seems like it wants to bring in playback strengths from Cubase so it too can be everything to everyone. I still find this a fatal flaw in their ideology. This seems to have befallen all of the notation app developers...


According to Daniel Rey's Scoring Notes podcast, Martin Keary is no longer in that position. He has moved up the ladder and is now overseeing Audacity and Musescore--I forget the exact position--but it sounds like he is no longer the primary force behind Musescore.


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## bitbrain

Jett Hitt said:


> Have we've been played here? Now suddenly I am again fearful for the future of StaffPad. This entire sale/acquisition affair has been handled so poorly. It doesn't instill much confidence in the company. Going forward my advice to would-be users will have to be, "Wait, don't buy, as this ship may yet founder." There is no way to credibly advise anyone on which iPad to buy or which libraries because we are again in the dark. Clearly, there are big changes afoot, and the only thing one could tell a would-be user is, "If you buy, only buy the most powerful iPad Pro possible, as it may be the only thing that works in the near future, and don't buy any of those libraries because they will likely soon be obsolete." Though I would always tell someone to buy the most powerful iPad possible, the necessity of an iPad Pro instantly takes a lot of people out of the game.
> 
> I get that someone at StaffPad got their feathers ruffled by your post, but people are spending a lot of money here on a trip with an unknown, changing destination. It seems like they at least deserve a road map.


I found this thread while trying to decide which third-party libraries to buy for StaffPad, and now I am wondering if I should wait to see how things pan out with MuseScore 4. I actually used to use MuseScore, but bought StaffPad for the excellent playback. If MuseScore 4 has the same playback features, I would gladly move back to using MuseScore and would consider it best of both worlds. Have we learned anything more recently that can help me make an informed choice?


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## sundrowned

bitbrain said:


> Have we learned anything more recently that can help me make an informed choice?


I'm not sure there's anything definite yet really. 

I think the musescore sound library is expected to be about 10gb and will apparently be out in some form when the beta version of musescore is released, which I would expect sometime this year. Could be delayed though. 

Personally I expect it to be good but not on the level of staffpad. Although it might end up being easier to fine control with the midi track which is a future planned musescore feature. But that's just a hunch based on them not having access to the top tier sound libraries, it might turn out to blow staffpad out the water. 

The great thing is it'll be free. 

If I were you I'd probably wait unless you absolutely need staffpad libraries now.


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## Jett Hitt

bitbrain said:


> I found this thread while trying to decide which third-party libraries to buy for StaffPad, and now I am wondering if I should wait to see how things pan out with MuseScore 4. I actually used to use MuseScore, but bought StaffPad for the excellent playback. If MuseScore 4 has the same playback features, I would gladly move back to using MuseScore and would consider it best of both worlds. Have we learned anything more recently that can help me make an informed choice?


I am of two minds: 1) I am not optimistic about StaffPad's future, despite the minor update that has been released since this discussion was held. 2) StaffPad with the Berlin libraries remains the most effective tool I have, and assuming you have an iPad capable of running them (or you have another reason to get one), StaffPad and the Berlin libraries are a no brainer for a notation based composer when on sale. You can get the whole set up for like $325 or so.

I also have low expectations for Musescore 4.0. I will be delighted if it is remarkable, but how remarkable can a free product be?


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## Markrs

Jett Hitt said:


> I am of two minds: 1) I am not optimistic about StaffPad's future, despite the minor update that has been released since this discussion was held. 2) StaffPad with the Berlin libraries remains the most effective tool I have, and assuming you have an iPad capable of running them (or you have another reason to get one), StaffPad and the Berlin libraries are a no brainer for a notation based composer when on sale. You can get the whole set up for like $325 or so.
> 
> I also have low expectations for Musescore 4.0. I will be delighted if it is remarkable, but how remarkable can a free product be?


Would you recommend getting Spitfire’s Chamber Strings? I am very happy with the full Berlin Suite on StaffPad but having chamber strings would be a bonus.


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## d.healey

Jett Hitt said:


> but how remarkable can a free product be?


Very


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## prasad_v

Markrs said:


> Would you recommend getting Spitfire’s Chamber Strings? I am very happy with the full Berlin Suite on StaffPad but having chamber strings would be a bonus.


I purchased the spitfire chamber when on sale and it was a nice complement to Berlin. They have slightly different capabilities and textures. For example portamento might only be available in upward direction in one of the libraries but both directions in the other and so on. Its not absolute necessity but unlocks some doors when you have that little bit extra


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## Jett Hitt

Markrs said:


> Would you recommend getting Spitfire’s Chamber Strings? I am very happy with the full Berlin Suite on StaffPad but having chamber strings would be a bonus.


I would say that SCS is the second most remarkable string library on StaffPad. I have heard some really nice mockups using them. It is a solid choice.


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## Jett Hitt

d.healey said:


> Very


I really really hope you're right. I want it to be the keenest thing since sliced bread.


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## Markrs

Thanks @Jett Hitt and @prasad_v


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## bitbrain

sundrowned said:


> ...If I were you I'd probably wait unless you absolutely need staffpad libraries now.


This is the heart of the issue, really. I am really having a blast with StaffPad and want to start playing with higher quality sounds (especially for strings), and there is a sale on right now so I am feeling particularly tempted to jump on it.


Jett Hitt said:


> ....
> I also have low expectations for Musescore 4.0. I will be delighted if it is remarkable, but how remarkable can a free product be?


Thanks for the response! I doubt the free playback for Musescore 4 will be as strong as even the stock library in StaffPad, but I am wondering whether they will be releasing purchasable upgrades of similar quality to those found in StaffPad, if not the same libraries. If so, I might be tempted to save my money for those. Either way, I would be spending money on upgrades, and I might rather spend it on MuseScore, since it is heading in the direction of being a more comprehensive composition program than StaffPad. 

I might just buy the Berlin Strings to start, and if it does turn out that I would rather invest in whatever they have cooking for MuseScore in the future, I will only be out $69.


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## dcoscina

I really really hope you're right. I want it to be the keenest thing since sliced bread.


Jett Hitt said:


> I really really hope you're right. I want it to be the keenest thing since sliced bread.


I wonder if we will ever see it port over to Staffpad like DWH was originally intending for that library to be for.


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## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> I really really hope you're right. I want it to be the keenest thing since sliced bread.
> 
> I wonder if we will ever see it port over to Staffpad like DWH was originally intending for that library to be for.


I have given up on new StaffPad libraries. It's been more than two years, and nothing. Where's that OT Big Band that we thought sure was coming?


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## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> I have given up on new StaffPad libraries. It's been more than two years, and nothing. Where's that OT Big Band that we thought sure was coming?


It still boggles my mind that at the pinnacle of the apps success, DWH sells it off… well I guess I just answered my own question.


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## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> It still boggles my mind that at the pinnacle of the apps success, DWH sells it off… well I guess I just answered my own question.


The only thing I can figure is that it just wasn’t really making any money. When you consider that he and Matthew invested almost a decade of their lives in the app, nothing about selling such a personal investment makes any sense. Why would you trust your baby to a company that must have said right up front that they planned to cannibalize the playback engine?


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## mopsiflopsi

Jett Hitt said:


> The only thing I can figure is that it just wasn’t really making any money. When you consider that he and Matthew invested almost a decade of their lives in the app, nothing about selling such a personal investment makes any sense. Why would you trust your baby to a company that must have said right up front that they planned to cannibalize the playback engine?


I was thinking about this lately, and I wondered if it might be that Spitfire, OT, Cine, etc don't want to license any more libraries to StaffPad. 

The marginal cost of issuing a new copy of samples in a new sale is zero. When you buy a new desktop library from their websites, they charge you a ton, plus they keep all the money. When you buy a StaffPad version of something on iPad it's a lot cheaper to begin with, and 30% of it goes to Apple right off the bat. SP is probably also taking a cut. So the actual money going into the pockets of the sample producer is a lot less compared to regular desktop sales. Not only that but then people like us keep talking about how it's nigh impossible to get the same mix, same sound from desktop versions that you get out of the box with StaffPad. I know I spend nearly nothing on non-SP libraries these days, and the last time I bought a desktop version of SCS (a library I also own on SP), I felt like an idiot for doing so. These companies are probably taking notice.

All in all, StaffPad may be a victim of its own success, and its best chances of moving forward may not be with companies that have a lot to lose from licensing libraries to it. MuseScore is not in the business of making money from outrageously priced samples, so perhaps it's a much better fit after all.


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## prasad_v

David himself stated why he sold Staffpad. 








#57 - StaffPad, with David William Hearn — Robby Burns







www.robbyburns.com


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## Jett Hitt

mopsiflopsi said:


> I was thinking about this lately, and I wondered if it might be that Spitfire, OT, Cine, etc don't want to license any more libraries to StaffPad.
> 
> The marginal cost of issuing a new copy of samples in a new sale is zero. When you buy a new desktop library from their websites, they charge you a ton, plus they keep all the money. When you buy a StaffPad version of something on iPad it's a lot cheaper to begin with, and 30% of it goes to Apple right off the bat. SP is probably also taking a cut. So the actual money going into the pockets of the sample producer is a lot less compared to regular desktop sales. Not only that but then people like us keep talking about how it's nigh impossible to get the same mix, same sound from desktop versions that you get out of the box with StaffPad. I know I spend nearly nothing on non-SP libraries these days, and the last time I bought a desktop version of SCS (a library I also own on SP), I felt like an idiot for doing so. These companies are probably taking notice.
> 
> All in all, StaffPad may be a victim of its own success, and its best chances of moving forward may not be with companies that have a lot to lose from licensing libraries to it. MuseScore is not in the business of making money from outrageously priced samples, so perhaps it's a much better fit after all.


I have speculated about the relationship with these sample companies myself, and I’ve arrived at much the same conclusion as you. Since we saw in a video that DWH had Glory Days installed on his own device, it seems likely that he prepared the library for StaffPad and then OT wouldn’t license it. On the other hand, CineSamples was a big supporter of StaffPad, so it seems that there was a path forward with at least one company. Everything is just speculation at this point, but it is hard to see the current state of things as anything but stagnation.


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## Jett Hitt

It is my understanding that DWH and @Alex W have worked together in the past, and I always found it curious that the Cinematic Studio Series never made its way onto StaffPad. But perhaps I have just been misinformed. You never know the validity of anything you read on the internet.


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## Markrs

The lack of a Jazz Band is disappointing and I would love to see one on Staffpad. I am looking to use SWAM instruments and Cubasis for that style, but using notation in Staffpad would be better.


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## Uncle Peter

I don't think they should be releasing updates for free. Bug fixes yes - but new functionality should come with a cost.


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## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> It is my understanding that DWH and @Alex W have worked together in the past, and I always found it curious that the Cinematic Studio Series never made its way onto StaffPad. But perhaps I have just been misinformed. You never know the validity of anything you read on the internet.


David confirmed this to me in my interview with him in 2020. He worked on the original CS with Alex.


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## Jett Hitt

dcoscina said:


> David confirmed this to me in my interview with him in 2020. He worked on the original CS with Alex.


Ah, so that's where I know this from. Thanks!


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## Symfoniq

prasad_v said:


> David himself stated why he sold Staffpad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #57 - StaffPad, with David William Hearn — Robby Burns
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.robbyburns.com


Can you summarize?


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## dcoscina

Symfoniq said:


> Can you summarize?


Yes please- I couldn’t make it through that interview… it was horrible.


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## Markrs

dcoscina said:


> Yes please- I couldn’t make it through that interview… it was horrible.


The questions is ask at 1:02 mark. The synergies with Musegroup company is that all the products are enablers as Staffpad is. There is no plans for any integration between Staffpad and the other products.

It was also about securing the future of Staffpad as David felt on the longer term a product has to be bought our shut down. Previously he talked about Staffpad being very niche and small audience and I think the need to be bought to secure the future related to that.

He also mentioned previously about charging model in the talk (I also think the benefit of being bought) allowed them to develop things that were not readily marketable features or features for a smaller party of their audience than if they were not securely funded.

At 1:07 he talks about handwriting recognition

There wasn't that much before that worth listening to. The keyboard question was asked and basically the answer is, it would be to much work as users expectations would be to have a lot of functions to support that feature.

I find it interesting that the sample companies provided the raw session recordings to Staffpad rather than the chopped up audio. So they had to do all the processing of the studio.


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## rsg22

Markrs said:


> The questions is ask at 1:02 mark. The synergies with Musegroup company is that all the products are enablers as Staffpad is. There is no plans for any integration between Staffpad and the other products.
> 
> It was also about securing the future of Staffpad as David felt on the longer term a product has to be bought our shut down. Previously he talked about Staffpad being very niche and small audience and I think the need to be bought to secure the future related to that.
> 
> He also mentioned previously about charging model in the talk (I also think the benefit of being bought) allowed them to develop things that were not readily marketable features or features for a smaller party of their audience than if they were not securely funded.
> 
> At 1:07 he talks about handwriting recognition
> 
> There wasn't that much before that worth listening to. The keyboard question was asked and basically the answer is, it would be to much work as users expectations would be to have a lot of functions to support that feature.
> 
> I find it interesting that the sample companies provided the raw session recordings to Staffpad rather than the chopped up audio. So they had to do all the processing of the studio.


Thank you. I couldn't get through 5 minutes of this podcast.


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## dcoscina

rsg22 said:


> Thank you. I couldn't get through 5 minutes of this podcast.


I made it a bit further but had to stop


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## Markrs

It wasn't the best podcast to listen to. I think the presenter did more talking that David, to the point I had to use the 30 second skip regularly.


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## PaulieDC

Markrs said:


> It wasn't the best podcast to listen to. I think the presenter did more talking that David, to the point I had to use the 30 second skip regularly.


Agreed... I can't listen to the interviewer either, he blurts out overly-fast comments then rabbit-trails like crazy. It's like following a Pachinko ball, trying to listen to him. He says "like" so many times, if you went in and removed them the interview would be 37 minutes long.

I find the conversation interesting about how we perceive computing today and least from Hearn's side of it... going to try and get through this, lol.


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## prasad_v

Markrs said:


> It wasn't the best podcast to listen to. I think the presenter did more talking that David, to the point I had to use the 30 second skip regularly.


Ha ha Of course i only posted it for that few minutes conversation about reason for selling staffpad. I am grateful someone even bothered to create such a wonderful app. I am sure David would only want the best future for his app and selling to Musescore might have been the only possible way forward for him to keep it alive in financial terms. I do agree that they should keep us more informed about whats happening behind the scenes so that we know its alive and kicking and have the confidence to keep investing by buying more libraries.


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## PaulieDC

It was interesting to listen to the conversation as a fellow software developer, Hearn talked about some of the behind-the-scenes when developing an app like this. But the interviewer... ugh. Next slide.

So Hearn sold the app, but he didn't walk away lighting cigars with 20s, he's still involved. I'm not overly worried _yet_, we'll see where it goes.


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## Jett Hitt

rsg22 said:


> Thank you. I couldn't get through 5 minutes of this podcast.





dcoscina said:


> I made it a bit further but had to stop


It was truly awful. I listened to it when it came out, but I likely slept through half of it.


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## Dave McD

I am extremely glad Staffpad has an owner that fill pay developers. Or at least promise to.


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## Zero Music Knowledge

Does anyone know if MuseGroup plans to continue supporting and developing Staffpad? Haven't heard word a blip about Staffpad aside from the sale and the July update, I'm worried this sale might just be make some money and just stop. Even a once a month blog post or twitter post that they are still alive would help allay fears


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## Mr_Fromage

My understanding is that Staffpad and its team have traditionally not been the most openly communicative, at least of late, in terms of development/roadmap information (which is true of many developers). With that said, they do have jobs listed on their website, including for social media, so I believe it’s something they’re wanting to improve.


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## Jett Hitt

Even if all development grinds to a halt, I suspect that StaffPad will remain on the App Store for a long time. As long as it is compatible with the latest OS, it should continue to function as-is. (This is probably less of an issue on Windows.) If I were purchasing StaffPad today, I would do so with the understanding that there may be no further updates, and I would be very wary about updating to the latest OS in the future. Let others test those waters first.


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## MisteR

Going in with the above understanding is smart, however, I think our forum tends to be a little prematurely wary (and dare I say, apocalyptic?). Understandably, acquisitions aren’t usually a good thing for end users. But I’m not that worried here. I think the biggest concern is with those 3rd party libraries. Don’t over-invest there if you need them to last. Worst case scenario is that the app gets completely absorbed and renamed by musescore and suddenly those libraries don’t work. Anyway, I believe they have stated that they are only doing updates twice a year now, and so far they have. In terms of communication…They were bought by a big company. Big companies tend to be quiet.


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