# Aren't people too quickly banned?



## Jaap (May 2, 2017)

It has been discussed before in the Headshot topic, but now I notice that a new member Anthraxsnax also has been banned and that also all of his content has been removed.

I have been in a few postings with him and as I stated in another topic as reaction, the guy could annoy the heck out of me with his postings and I even reported him yesterday for derailling threads, but in all fairness, would have been a warning or maybe a cooldown period not have been a better solution?
He played it on the edge, but in my personal opinion never really went too far. Of course we can disagree with how he and what he posted, but we are a wide society here with thousands and thousands of members and that means a even great amount of variety in personalilities.
I understand that moderating such a forum as this and to keep everything in order in a way that keeps this ball rolling, is taking a tremendous amount of effort which I probably don't even fully comprehend, but I want to raise my concerns nonetheless if things are not too strict.
I am also one of those members that took the route from being banned at the Nothern Sounds board that led to the road here and I would love to see the great spirit that always have been around here be remained and that we don't go down that same road.

Anyway, this is my post as concerned member.

Cheers,

Jaap


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## woodsdenis (May 2, 2017)

To answer your question NO, there is a huge amount of latitude given here YMMV .


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2017)

I am against banning 99.99% of the time. I wouldn't have banned Mr Nax, at least on the basis of the things I observed- however, I did ignore him. Funny how well that works.

Who banned him and why?


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## markleake (May 2, 2017)

No idea why Anthraxsnax was banned. I did find him annoying and tried to ignore him, but ended up biting and engaging with him on what I thought were his more silly posts, just so that others reading the forum didn't get the wrong idea.

I noticed he seemed to want people to watch his YT videos a lot, and would put them everywhere. So maybe spamming the forums with videos was why? Was pretty annoying.

Edit: fix "buying" to "biting".


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## thesteelydane (May 2, 2017)

Well, it was impossible to have a civil discussion with him. I tried, but like he did to others as well, he assigned me opinions I didn't have, and then attacked me for them, and eventually resorted to name calling. It was a pretty frustrating experience, but maybe I'm thin skinned?


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## markleake (May 3, 2017)

thesteelydane said:


> Well, it was impossible to have a civil discussion with him. I tried, but like he did to others as well, he assigned me opinions I didn't have, and then attacked me for them, and eventually resorted to name calling. It was a pretty frustrating experience, but maybe I'm thin skinned?


Nope, I don't think you are thin skinned. I think he crossed the line a few times personally with what he said to other people, although not necessarily in a "ban him" kind of way. He seemed to be out for a fight. He reacted to my posts also, and assumed all sorts of things that were just wrong about what I was trying to say, although nothing as bad as he said to you. I was too scared to challenge him directly on some things, for fear of how he would react. He seemed to have a tendancy to take over and dominate a forum, and take it off topic.

Edit: And his answer to every question was LASS and Sample Modeling. 

Whether all the above is bannable stuff, I don't know. Sometimes we don't get to see the full picture of what is going on.


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## MarcelM (May 3, 2017)

i will be honest. he is no loss for the vi community.
it was only a few times now that he discussed things in a wrong way, but it would become even worse i guess.
the tone of his comments to some people wasnt just correct.
maybe a warning would have helped and he would act different in the future, who knows...


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## Karsten Vogt (May 3, 2017)

Banned forever? Harsh decision. I wasn't a friend of his discussion style either but getting rid of someone who doesn't fit in instantly?
I like temporary timeouts for that purpose with an explanation of what went wrong. Let him rethink and reflect for a couple of days. He might come back being or becoming a valued member.

A little inspiration:


"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons"
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky


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## Jaap (May 3, 2017)

I share most experiences that all of you posted as well and I am not here to defend his actions or being and I think it was logical that some sort of action should have been undertaken towards him since he made quite an entrance mildly spoken, but a warning, or temporary ban should have been sufficient in my opinion. A full ban with every content deleted is way too harsh and that is also why I am concerned. There always will be very outspoken and very "present" individuals here with this amount of members on board and just banning them is not a solution. He also contributed and helped, though maybe not in a way everybody agreed upon, but at least showing or warning him and giving time to adjust should have been the right way. If he would have kept crossing all kinds of lines and causing mayhem, then yes it would have been a logical step, but for now it was a step too quick in my personal opinion.
And since his account was deleted and all the content it must have been Frederick who has undertaken this action as I understood from earlier postings that he is the only one with that power to do that.


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## ghostnote (May 3, 2017)

Ok, here we go: There is a trend lately on V.I. of insulting and putting down other members because of (sometimes even the smallest) disagreements. That's what I've tried to show you in the "Is the computer an instrument?" thread. While I know that many people here use this forum for procrastination and some even for venting (yes beeing a musician can be hard sometimes), there is no excuse to insult other members. We are here to help each other out and not to show off, put others down, etc. The more we remember and practice this, the more valuable this community becomes.


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## Jaap (May 3, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> there is no excuse to insult other members. We are here to help each other out and not to show off, put others down, etc. The more we remember and practice this, the more valuable this community becomes.



Yes this should be a golden rule in my opinion and should also be the standard in the way the forum is conducted 
Also I think that banning people should be really a last resort or when a very clear line was crossed. I think anyway it is good to have these discussions and it's nice to see the input. I think also that is a way of keeping this great and very valuable forum alive and kicking in my opinion


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## thesteelydane (May 3, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> Ok, here we go: There is a trend lately on V.I. of insulting and putting down other members because of (sometimes even the smallest) disagreements. That's what I've tried to show you in the "Is the computer an instrument?" thread. While I know that many people here use this forum for procrastination and some even for venting (yes beeing a musician can be hard sometimes), there is no excuse to insult other members. We are here to help each other out and not to show off, put others down, etc. The more we remember and practice this, the more valuable this community becomes.
> 
> Hans himself called another member a quote "idiot" a while ago. Very cool Hans, that's the perfect gentleman chap all people keep describing you. Did even one member stood up and said: "Hey that's not OK, regardles who you are." Nope. Then a big while later, Headshot expressed his disbelief and the community went bananas. Was Headshots post innapropriate? Yes, but a) insulting and then b.) banning him was not OK.



I agree with that, but in this case it was him insulting and putting down other members. I imagine he must have had multiple warnings, as he attacked and insulted quite a few people.


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## zewolfx (May 3, 2017)

+1 for the warnings, I think he just didn't listen...

I'm really, truly, sorry to say that, but I just won't miss him. Never had a good feeling with him... (I guess it's karma)...


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## markleake (May 3, 2017)

Yep. I also suspect he had multiple warnings and was told of the consequences. I notice the last few days he was behaving a lot differently. Maybe he did it again, even after those warnings, and hence the ban? If that were the case, then it's not an unfair punishment.


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## Flaneurette (May 3, 2017)

I think most of us have good and bad days. That makes us human I guess. I notice it in my own behavior as well. Sometimes I can be a bit pessimistic, at other times very supportive. I can be very opinionated, and I am like that in real life as well. Sometimes to the point that it hurts business. I value integrity and honesty more than making a dollar. But I never try to incite drama, or intentionally troll a thread. I think there is a big difference. I don't know why he got banned... we don't know all the details and what went on behind the scenes. Only Fredrick would know.

I have ran a forum once, and I know how difficult it is. Each decision you make as an admin will be scrutinized. When you do not nothing, you're blamed for enabling certain behavior. When you try to stop certain behavior after multiple warnings you will be criticized for over-reacting. But the bottom line is, we are guests here. It's not our Forum. And I respect the house rules.


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## airflamesred (May 3, 2017)

I had him on ignore, didn't realise he'd gone. I think if you come from a gaming background, as I think he did, then different rules apply.


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2017)

So the idea in gaming discussion groups is to swagger, get into verbal fisticuffs with as many people as possible and insist you're right all the time? Sounds positively Batzdorf-ian.


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## Jaap (May 3, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> So the idea in gaming discussion groups is to swagger, get into verbal fisticuffs with as many people as possible and insist you're right all the time? Sounds positively Batzdorf-ian.


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## Flaneurette (May 3, 2017)

In real life, it's easy to point out personality flaws and make someone aware of them. And that's good, because we grow through others and understand ourselves better in the way how we come across to others. Online, something like that is quickly seen as a personal attack. I don't know the answer to this. Taking things with a grain of salt, having respect, and trying to avoid being a jerk is a good starting point though...


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## Polkasound (May 3, 2017)

It's my opinion that Anthraxsnax was simply too immature to handle spirited debate. If you disagreed with him long enough, he'd apparently feel threatened and then verbally attack you based on things you never said. When people do that, it becomes literally impossible to reason with them, because they stop listening. When he sparred with me, I had to abruptly end the conversation because his reasoning devolved to the point where I was defending myself from stuff he was making up.

In the short time he was here, Anthraxsnax accrued a record of verbally abusing people on a personal level just for having opposing opinions. If you disagreed with him, he'd maybe attack your credibility or your education. That may be par for the course in gamer forums filled with kids and immature adults, but it's not welcome in a community sustained by mutual respect and diplomacy. Anthraxsnax was simply not a good fit for VI-Control, and, assuming he received prior warnings, I firmly stand behind his being banned.

I wouldn't mind inviting him back to VI-Control someday, because he's knowledgeable and creative, but not until he's had enough time to work on his people skills.


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## catsass (May 3, 2017)

Although I am sympathetic to those of you who found yourself on the receiving end of seemingly unwinnable disputation with Anthraxsnax, I often found myself seeking out his posts purely for the shock value they frequently contained. "Holy sh*t! What the f**k is he going to say next?!?"

He was/is certainly a cocksure young fellow, and was unafraid to go toe to toe with, well..anyone - at any cost - no matter how over-his-head he may have been, or became.

Again, to those of you whose feathers were justifiably ruffled by him, I apologize for finding personal amusement at your expense.


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## Polkasound (May 3, 2017)

Yes, there was a definite entertainment value to his posts, and an endless supply of posts to read through. I give him credit for jumping right in and not being afraid to offer his opinions across the entire gamut of topics.

It wouldn't be proper for me to speculate about a former member who is no longer here to defend himself, so I will simply say that his posting behavior was all too familiar. When children grow up in an emotionally-sheltered environment, they can become adults who lack the ability to take criticism gracefully. They're not used to someone telling them they're wrong, or that their idea might not be the best one. They'll perceive something as harmless as an opposing opinion as a personal act of contempt, and go right into attack mode.

Well, now that this forum has lost a little bit of entertainment value, I will do my best to make up for it by performing my rendition of Chopsticks played with two pencils up my nose...

Eh... maybe not.


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## gregh (May 3, 2017)

I use forum "ignore" functions quite a bit - I like a strong personality but have no interest in being exposed to aggressive online behaviour. There is no shortage of opinions online so even if one ignores someone unpleasant but with an interesting point of view, there will still be more interesting points of view from others than one could possibly give the time they deserve


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## Smikes77 (May 3, 2017)

Wow, I never knew he was insulting like that to members. I saw a few posts by him and it wasn`t anywhere near enough for me to think "ban", but it looks like I missed him on full throttle. Or, maybe he was just warming up. Who knows.


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## Parsifal666 (May 3, 2017)

I thought anthraxsnax was fine, I simply had to acclimate myself to his personality. I did worry about some of the misleading statements he made concerning music (in general and specifics) being taken to heart by newcomers, though, but I thought he seemed a basically friendly person; plus the whacko, unnecessarily angular way he had of trying to back up a lot of his statements practically guaranteed nobody who had a decent brain would take his input without a boulder-sized rock of salt.

It also seemed to me that he might be kind of lonely and an attention-monger, and he just latched onto this forum. Some folks do that, they go from forum to forum (could be any subject, really) and just want to hang out. He said he spent all this money on all of this music production stuff, yet I felt kind of bad that he spent so much time here; because there was no possible way he could be learning to use those things properly. He was always posting. Unless he was a supa dupa savant guy.

But banning for life...I dunno. Maybe give him another chance, tell him what was irritating people?


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## chimuelo (May 3, 2017)

In my opinion I should be banned.
But by donating thousands of dollars I ensure the forum survives year after year so others can be banned.


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## Polkasound (May 3, 2017)

Some of his posts were genuinely constructive, and I commend him for offering his advice wherever people found it helpful. But it was when someone challenged his opinion that his demeanor could change and send the conversation spiraling for no reason. There were several instances where he encouraged other members to put him on Ignore if they didn't agree with him. There's nothing wrong with that advice, but I preferred to look at the problem from a larger perspective...

This is a forum for virtual instrument users, not an online chat room for Call of Duty players. Conversations here can get a little spicy just like anywhere else, but no conversation should ever sink to the point of actually needing the Ignore feature. Likewise, disagreeing with someone here shouldn't require walking on eggshells or donning battle armor, wondering if the other person is going to take your words, flip them 180 degrees, and begin slamming your credentials.

Intentionally abrasive people can lower the integrity of discussion forums which are centered around courtesy, respect, and professionalism. I think VI-Control has more integrity than any other internet discussion forum I've ever belonged to, because of the good nature of its membership. I'd like to see that integrity continue to be upheld and protected.


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## catsass (May 3, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> I will do my best to make up for it by performing my rendition of Chopsticks played with two pencils up my nose...


This could get interesting. Weighted keys? Aftertouch?


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## Polkasound (May 3, 2017)

catsass said:


> Weighted keys? Aftertouch?



I was thinking a well-used, synth-action Casiotone keyboard from the early 1980's, and a couple of Ticonderoga #1 pencils. I want to keep the damage to my nose to a minimum. The damage to my career, however...


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## chimuelo (May 3, 2017)

For my 13 Terabyte Template I'll be getting this...

http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-n...unleash-the-full-performance-of-nvme-storage/


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## Jaap (May 4, 2017)

I understood from his side that no warnings has been given to him and if that is the case then it is really a too harsh action. It is of course not my decision on how this board is ran, but I do think that people should always have to get a warning(s) first.


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## Parsifal666 (May 4, 2017)

Jaap said:


> I understood from his side that no warnings has been given to him and if that is the case then it is really a too harsh action. It is of course not my decision on how this board is ran, but I do think that people should always have to get a warning(s) first.



I do too. However, I've been on this board for a little while and I haven't seen much unfairness done from a broad scale. I imagine the moderators had their reasons. Still, it would have taken me more than I've seen to make me want to ban someone for life.

Make it a couple of weeks or something, let everyone calm down.


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## JohnG (May 4, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> In my opinion I should be banned.
> But by donating thousands of dollars I ensure the forum survives year after year so others can be banned.



^^^nominate for best all-time post


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## JohnG (May 4, 2017)

The guy was a troll. Although he was extremely active, he wasn't actually engaged in discussion, by which I mean the reasoned exchange of views. If you disagreed with him, flame city, very quickly degenerating to personal insults.

As a former moderator, I can attest that nobody bans people around here unless it's over the top. Moreover, to jaap and others who don't like the ban, consider that you probably only read a small number of his overall posts. Unless you read all his posts, which few would have done, you might not realise exactly what triggered the ban.

Depending on the situation, the number of warnings might vary, but during my time as a moderator I don't recall anyone being banned without specific, clear warnings, usually accompanied by a quotation from the rules of the forum. 

He says he didn't get warnings? Maybe, maybe not. It is not a requirement to deliver warnings.


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## Jaap (May 4, 2017)

JohnG said:


> The guy was a troll. Although he was extremely active, he wasn't actually engaged in discussion, by which I mean the reasoned exchange of views. If you disagreed with him, flame city, very quickly degenerating to personal insults.
> 
> As a former moderator, I can attest that nobody bans people around here unless it's over the top. Moreover, to jaap and others who don't like the ban, consider that you probably only read a small number of his overall posts. Unless you read all his posts, which few would have done, you might not realise exactly what triggered the ban.
> 
> ...



Well I ran into a few heavy handed discussions as well and pfff he got me really on my nerves and yes things also got on the edge of being personal towards me and I reported him even and I think some sort of action should have been undertaken to make it stop from escalating (if that didn't already happen till a certain extend). My worry as expressed though if the actions undertaken have not been too much, but I already expressed that opinion 
I recognise the image you are drawing and that is also always what I noticed in all the years that I have been here (and god we had some horrible trolls  ), but I also noticed always a chain of actions instead of what is happening now.


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## JohnG (May 4, 2017)

Jaap said:


> but I also noticed always a chain of actions instead of what is happening now.



Hi Jaap,

I know you are a kind and fair-minded person, and your concern springs from the best motives. I think we all support that perspective.

I don't like to repeat myself, but I can assure you, people do not get banned here unless their behaviour is way over the line. Way over. Anthrax is telling you he didn't get a warning; maybe he received a warning and maybe he didn't listen, maybe he didn't receive one.

But if he didn't receive a warning, he must have been flagrantly ignoring civility and attacking someone.

Unless policy has changed, I doubt you have heard from the moderators what triggered the ban and what did or didn't lead up to it. I would be slow to accept an obvious troll's word about what happened. Guys like that always feel they are justified and often, as we all know, are a bit careless with facts.

With best regards,

John


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## Jaap (May 4, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Hi Jaap,
> 
> I know you are a kind and fair-minded person, and your concern springs from the best motives. I think we all support that perspective.
> 
> ...



Thanks John!


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## chillbot (May 6, 2017)

JohnG said:


> The guy was a troll. Although he was extremely active, he wasn't actually engaged in discussion, by which I mean the reasoned exchange of views. If you disagreed with him, flame city, very quickly degenerating to personal insults.



Yes to this. I had no problem with any individual post that he made but with the sheer volume of work. 500+ posts in your very first month is coming in HOT and showing a total lack of common sense. Especially given the content of the posts he was making. But ignore feature was working fine for me, I didn't realize he was gone. Have no problem with it though... I feel like the ban bar is at the right level.


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## Desire Inspires (May 6, 2017)

I have been banned from plenty of forums. It's not the end of the world.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> I have been banned from plenty of forums. It's not the end of the world.


Nor does it speak particularly well of you.


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## Parsifal666 (May 8, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Nor does it speak particularly well of you.



Nahh, depends on which forums. There are plenty of forums that are more than worth being banned from...or having fun trying to. I don't consider VI one of those of course.


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Nahh, depends on which forums. There are plenty of forums that are more than worth being banned from...or having fun trying to. I don't consider VI one of those of course.


Then why join them? After joining them, if you don't like them, why not just leave?


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## Parsifal666 (May 8, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Then why join them? After joining them, if you don't like them, why not just leave?



I was joking, my friend. Obviously I'm not very good at it.


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## NYC Composer (May 8, 2017)

Well okaythen!


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## mac (May 11, 2017)

This was the dark haired guy with the ponytail, right? I thought he came across as pretty high spirited, I must have missed something.


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