# VE Pro & DP8 Workflow



## MediaComposer88 (Jun 5, 2014)

Hey guys,

I just acquired VE Pro and am looking forward to try some things out in combination with DP8.06. I was wondering whether there are any DP(8) users out there who could give me some useful tips.

In another topic I read that for Logic, Jay Asher recommended to put each instrument in a separate viframe (which is a completely separate instance of VE Pro if I understand correctly).

Is this the way to go for DP too, or are there other workflows to be recommended?

Things I'm wondering:
- How do you set the VE Pro buffer multiplier?
- How do your VE Pro settings for Multi Processing and the counts of MIDI ports/Audio in/outputs look?
- Do you put everything inside one instance, do you spread sections over multiple instances or do you put one instrument in one instance/viframe?
- Did you go back and change any settings in DP (buffer/work priority/host multiplier) or Kontakt (preload/multi-processor support/memory server) to optimize its interaction with VE Pro?
- What's your routing procedure?
- How do you use the decouple/preserve features?
- Anything else I should take into account?

I realize these are quite a few questions, and probably questions that might not be very easy to answer. Nevertheless, any advice would be much appreciated!


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## JohnG (Jun 5, 2014)

Hello Dennis,

These are good questions. I don't know whether I have the best method, but here are a few things.

To set up a new instance of VE Pro, I choose Project, Add Track, Instrument Track, then from the pull-down menu select VSL and Vienna Ensemble Pro (stereo).

I use a different instance of VE Pro for each set of stereo outs. So, for example, all the guitars go on one instance of VE Pro. All keys go on another. This is not strictly necessary, as I'm sure there are really exciting and cool routing possibilities, but nevertheless, that's what I do.

You can add overall FX either in DP's mix window, or in VE Pro itself.

I use zero buffers.

I don't remember changing any preferences in DP in consequence of VE Pro specifically, but I do have "All Plug-ins in Real-time" set for all my projects. I think I had trouble with Omnisphere when this was not set this way, but my recollection could be faulty.

I don't use the decouple. Doing without it is only barely tolerable for how I work, and I only have synths, guitars, keys and drum kits on my main computer. Everything else, including most percussion, is offloaded to slaves.

I think for most people you would have to use the decouple or you would spend too much time waiting during autosaves.


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## Andy B (Jun 6, 2014)

Hi Dennis,

I've done a little bit of experimenting with VE-PRO and DP8 on my 2010 12 core Mac Pro. 

I have a slightly older Mac Pro as a slave which is running about 12GBs of samples and have about 23 GBs worth on my main machine, both in VE-PRO (Kontakt 4.2.4 btw). I was getting a lot of pops and clicks with a low VE-PRO buffer multiplier, even with DP's buffer up to 512. I've found that having more than one instance per machine helps a little bit but I don't think DP would react too well to having an instance per patch (if that's what the Logic suggestion is) – so I have three instances going to my slave machine and at the moment just one for VE-PRO on my DAW.

The main thing I've found is that it's better on my set-up to have higher buffer multipliers and a lower DP buffer, so all of the VE-PRO buffers are set to 4 and DP is at 128. The clicks and pops have disappeared but I still sometimes get that annoying window 'Audio playback has overloaded your computer's processor...' regardless of DP's buffer (I know it can be turned off, but I'm forever trying to optimise the system so would prefer to keep it on).

Oh, and I have the thread count set to 8 in VE-PRO and Multiprocessor support turned on in Kontakt and set to the number of cores on the machine.

Hope that helps.

Thanks,

Andy.


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## MediaComposer88 (Jun 6, 2014)

John and Andy, thanks for those helpful insights!

I intend to do a little experimenting today with VE Pro & DP, I'll keep you posted on the results.


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## JohnG (Jun 6, 2014)

Andy B @ 6th June 2014 said:


> The main thing I've found is that it's better on my set-up to have higher buffer multipliers and a lower DP buffer, so all of the VE-PRO buffers are set to 4 and DP is at 128.



Interesting, Andy. When you try to play do you experience a long lag between hitting the key and hearing a note? I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that big VE Pro buffers would cause that.


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## Andy B (Jun 6, 2014)

JohnG @ Fri Jun 06 said:


> Andy B @ 6th June 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > The main thing I've found is that it's better on my set-up to have higher buffer multipliers and a lower DP buffer, so all of the VE-PRO buffers are set to 4 and DP is at 128.
> ...



Well, I'm getting a response before the key's fully depressed and that seems OK to me. I've found that with lower VE-Pro buffers it's always meant having to raise DP's anyway but, for some unknown reason (to me), the way described above is more CPU friendly.

Thanks,

Andy.


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## JohnG (Jun 6, 2014)

Thanks!


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## MediaComposer88 (Jun 12, 2014)

Hi all,

I spent some time testing various configurations of VE Pro in combination with DP8 and I thought I'd share the results.

*Specs:
*- iMac Intel i7 3,4 GHz (Quad-core)
- 32 GB RAM
- All samples on external LaCie Thunderbolt SSD, the rest on HD
- Audio Interface: RME Fireface UC
- Mac OS X 10.9.3
- Digital Performer 8.06
- Vienna Ensemble Pro 5
- Kontakt and All Libraries updated to the latest versions, except BWW (@version 1.6)

*Kontakt Settings:
*- Multiprocessor Support @4 Cores
- Preload buffer at 12 kb
- Memory Server Off

*Digital Performer Settings:
*- Buffer @256
- Work Priority set to High
- Host Buffer Multiplier at 4 (gives best results by far)
- All Plug-Ins in Real-Time activated (default & current)

*VE Pro Settings:
*- Threads @2
- Latency of instances is set to None (I found everything above 1 unacceptable for MIDI input)
- Number of audio inputs/outputs have been set as low as possible

*Libraries used* (note: I didn't purge any samples):
- 7 Berlin Woodwind instruments, all inside the Articulation Performer
- 7 CineBrass instruments
- LASS Strings, each section inside A.R.C. with virtually all articulations loaded (sections A, B, and C - no First Chairs - Stage/Reverb not used, did use Color (Village)).

*Plug-Ins:
*- 3 Instances of ValhallaRoom for each section
- 5 Instances of VirtualSoundStage on each LASS section
- FabFilter Limiter on Master

*The results:
*- Although I read somewhere that using as few instances as possible in accordance with the Event Input was recommended for DP, this turned out to be the worst configuration for me by far (lots of CPU spikes, dropouts, cracks). Also, Bounce to Disk doesn't work with the Event Input (as is known).
- I got the best results by loading all BWW instruments in one instance, all Cinebrass instruments in another, and loading each LASS section into its own instance (so, 7 instances total). Also, putting VSS and Vroom into DP rather than VE Pro seemed smoother. I experimented with the number of instances (for instance, by putting each BWW Instrument in its own instance - which made the CPU meter go up). Fewer instances seemed better (which is different with Logic for example), but using one instance per LASS section didn't seem to make a lot of difference (except there's of course the advantage of having access to the different keyswitch channels).

Overall, I must say that with my best VE Pro configuration the difference in efficiency wasn't as big as I'd hoped, compared with hosting everything in DP. However, although the average CPU load was comparable, I noted that sudden spikes were almost non-existent when hosting the VIs in VE Pro.

I guess my i7 quad has a hard time with the libraries/articulations I throw at it.

Cheers!


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## Andy B (Jun 12, 2014)

Thanks for posting your findings.

Andy.


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## JohnG (Jun 12, 2014)

MediaComposer88 @ 12th June 2014 said:


> *Kontakt Settings:
> *- Multiprocessor Support @4 Cores
> - Preload buffer at 12 kb
> - Memory Server Off



Interesting. I thought the best thing was to set multiprocessor setting to "off" when used inside DP. Is this when you have Kontakt inside VE Pro?


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## reddognoyz (Jun 12, 2014)

Thanks John. I'm still using DP7.24 as it's more efficient for me than DP8. I have a large template and I always seem to be pushing the cpu hard. 

I've never changed the host buffer multiplier Is there a difference in increasing that and decreasing the buffer in the vep instances? For instance do you see a difference between using the host buffer multiplier at 4 and none in the VEP plug vs Host buffer multiplier at none and the vep buffer at 4?


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## JohnG (Jun 12, 2014)

I don't know; it's Dennis who has done the heavy lifting here.


I'm on DP v8.01 as I also had some issues with one of the updates beyond that. This one is working well for me.


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## reddognoyz (Jun 12, 2014)

Sorry John I thought you started this thread. I'm gonna experiment a little with that host buffer.

BTW I am very happy with DP8, it's just a little hungrier than DP7.24 and I am loathe to give up any cpu headroom. There's a new mac pro in my future for sure.

running a 2113 Mac pro 12 core, do you think I will benefit from upgrading to Mavericks?


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## JohnG (Jun 12, 2014)

I'm on a 2008 and still clinging to Snow Leopard, so I'm not a good source of advice.

I know we have to update some day...


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## MichaelL (Jun 12, 2014)

reddognoyz @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> . There's a new mac pro in my future for sure.
> running a 2113 Mac pro 12 core, do you think I will benefit from upgrading to Mavericks?




That's way in the future Stuart. Has MAC ironed out the OS bugs yet? :lol:


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## MediaComposer88 (Jun 13, 2014)

JohnG @ 2014-06-12 said:


> MediaComposer88 @ 12th June 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > *Kontakt Settings:
> ...



That's what I read too, but turning it on made a considerable difference (even changing from 3 to 4 cores noticeably improved performance).



reddognoyz said:


> I've never changed the host buffer multiplier Is there a difference in increasing that and decreasing the buffer in the vep instances? For instance do you see a difference between using the host buffer multiplier at 4 and none in the VEP plug vs Host buffer multiplier at none and the vep buffer at 4?



Yes, it seems that your Host Buffer Multiplier setting in DP affects the amount of latency that's added as soon as you setup a VE Pro instance at 1 Buffer or higher (the higher the Host Buffer Multiplier setting, the more latency is added in VE Pro). For me, setting the DP Host Buffer Multiplier to 4 has increased CPU efficiency dramatically (also when not using VE Pro). But what's more interesting is that I didn't notice any extra latency when playing my MIDI keyboard. However, as soon as I go beyond 1 Buffer for a VE Pro instance, the latency is unacceptable for me. This is not the case when setting the Host Buffer Multiplier to 1, but then the CPU is pushed much harder. So, Host Buffer Multiplier at 4 and VE Pro instance buffers at none seem the way to go for me. Probably, it all depends on your personal system specs.


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## Andy B (Jun 13, 2014)

Thanks Dennis for the tip on DP's host buffer multiplier. I had mine set to 1 as I'm pretty sure I remember MOTU telling me that you should have it set to as many 2408s (or whatever else you're using) as you have connected. I've also noticed quite a big jump in CPU performance now.

Thanks,

Andy.


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## MediaComposer88 (Jun 13, 2014)

Hi Andy,

You're welcome! Indeed the Host Buffer Multiplier is originally meant to reflect the amount of drivers you're using. However, I do remember reading about an additional recommendation to try out a setting of 3 or 4 when encountering poor performance, even if you're using a single driver.

It may not specifically be designed for optimizing CPU performance, but if it helps, why not?


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2014)

Thanks again Dennis.


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2014)

Any suggestions for optimising Omnisphere settings? I went through that pretty thoroughly a long while ago, but maybe there's something new?

I haven't been hosting it in VE Pro -- any experiments with that?


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## MediaComposer88 (Jun 14, 2014)

You're welcome John - I don't have Omnisphere, so unfortunately I don't have any insights on that.


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## sinkd (Jun 15, 2014)

I am surprised by the reports of increased performance by incrementing DPs host buffer multiplier... My understanding was this setting should only be changed if you are running an Aggregate I/O setup with multiple Core Audio drivers.

VEPro's buffer multiplier now works as it should with DP 8. For any instruments that are not being sequenced, VEPro pre renders the audio at the multiplied buffer so that I can keep a low (256) overall buffer setting. I keep all my instances set at 4 now. This did not work in DP7 and earlier. Record engaged tracks render at 256, all others at 1024. Awesome.

I second the advice about keeping audio outputs set to the minimum necessary. The "number of cores" setting still remains a mystery to me.

DS


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## Steve Steele (Jun 18, 2014)

sinkd @ Sun Jun 15 said:


> I am surprised by the reports of increased performance by incrementing DPs host buffer multiplier... My understanding was this setting should only be changed if you are running an Aggregate I/O setup with multiple Core Audio drivers.
> 
> DS



Yeah, I was reading this thread wondering if they were using the wrong term. I've been using DP for a very long time and have always kept the Host Buffer Multiplier on 1. I'm going to have to try this. Although I rarely get CPU spikes these days. 

I can say DP8 does very well with it's MP management. I have a 2008 8-core MacPro and I keep a sharp eye on CPU usage and history. DP spreads evenly across all cores well. As Magic Dave said, consider each track a thread, and with MachFive, use more instances. Looking forward to getting a new MacPro soon and seeing how DP runs on that. 

With 32GBs of RAM and two SSD RAIDs for samples and a HDD RAID on an eSATA bus, DP and VEPro are playing very nice for me. 

My main libs at the moment are LASS, CineBrass and Cinewinds (soon to be BWW and VSL). I have a brass instance, a wind instance and am using four Event Input plugins so I can use LASS in one instance. I do online bouncing for LASS and either offline or online for the others. I sometimes keep my percussion VIs in DP (for no real reason other than I can because DP has plenty of overhead to spare and I have no reason to lower the buffer with my orchestral templates. Pop templates are a different story). 

I leave DP's buffer at 1024. VEPro at 2 threads each. And a very low Kontakt buffer size. All seems well. 

I'll have to try the Host Buffer Multiplier setting later.


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## sinkd (Jun 18, 2014)

nightwatch @ Wed Jun 18 said:


> I leave DP's buffer at 1024.



Jinkies. Do you mean for mixing? I could not perform with most any of my libraries at that buffer setting.

DS


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## Steve Steele (Jun 18, 2014)

sinkd @ Wed Jun 18 said:


> nightwatch @ Wed Jun 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I leave DP's buffer at 1024.
> ...



It depends. I'll track at 512 or 256 if I'm playing bass, guitar or piano, but I'm ok with 1024 for tracking some things. For some reason I like it when tracking vocals. Leaves a nice doubling effect in the headphones! Over the years I've gotten used to it I guess.

I'd mix at 2048 if my interface let me.


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