# Workflow - Notation to Sequencer, or Sequencer to Notation?



## mducharme (Apr 15, 2011)

Hi all,

I am trying to sort out a workflow for my compositions regarding notation and sequence.

I previously wrote everything in Cubase and never really had to notate very much. For the past two years however, instead, of doing scoring projects, I have been getting a composition degree, and so I have been doing everything in Finale and nothing in Cubase.

I find now that I have gotten so used to doing everything in Finale that now that I am wanting to go and write some film-ish stuff over the summer I almost want to do it notated, even though it most likely won't be performed. Notation makes tessitura visible (at least with transposed scores) and other voice leading issues. It gets me thinking more about dynamics in performance, phrasing, etc, which can be forgotten with sequenced performances.

Even for credit compositions for University, I sometimes want more control over CC's and whatnot than the "Human Playback" in Finale provides, to allow me to do a slightly better sounding demo in the event that a piece cannot be performed by the jury deadline.

I therefore see a few options in workflow:

1. Sequence in Cubase first and use the notation feature in Cubase with its display quantize functions to get a half decent notation in Cubase, and then export MusicXML and import into Finale.

2. Notate in Finale first and export and then import into Cubase for additional CC shaping, humanization, mixing, blending libs, etc.

At the moment I cannot really decide between the two approaches, and was wondering if any of you might have some input on the pros and cons with a particular approach and what you do.

Thanks


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## windshore (Apr 15, 2011)

I use Logic and Sibelius and I think the answer depends a lot about the type of music you're writing and if it is indeed locked to film. Time is another important consideration.

Logic actually has an excellent score editor. That is why I use it more than PT for production. I also like to see notes on the page. I think Logic has a stronger score editor than Cubase so I rarely have the need to go to Sibelius but there are certain types of orchestration that Sibelius is really brilliant at.

If you're syncing to video I think you pretty much have to do it in the DAW. 

If I'm doing a complex orchestration, I may simply sketch out themes and basic harmony or bass notes, then move to Sibelius, then re-import to Logic.

Bottom line is that whatever method you use, it's all a lot of compromise. If time is of the essence, it's probably best to sequence in the DAW and get some kind of performance happening with as much as possible, then move whatever parts need more careful work over to Finale. Ultimately, you'll just have to keep trying until you find a workflow that works for your music and for your clients - or audience.


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## bdr (Apr 15, 2011)

here are some thoughts on the subject


http://bennewhouse.berkleemusicblogs.co ... but-equal/

personally I find it a battle and an annoyance every time, I am still looking for the right answer.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 15, 2011)

I often do mockups for composers and orchestrators who send me a pdf, Finale file and midi file (generated from Finale.) It easily goes into my sequence program in DP and is very easy to mockup from there. I then kick myself for writing in midi and not doing it that way myself. Of course everything is overly quantized and has to be loosened up but you are assured of everything being there as far as orchestration and any missing doublings etc that seem to happen when doing a midi orchestration outright.


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## JJP (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm finding that I'm leaning more towards writing in Finale. I find I write better this way because I'm focused on the actual writing rather than worrying about the mix, or finding the right sample or fiddling with the quantization, or whatever.

Then I print the score, shift gears, and play the parts into Logic to create the mockup. Then I'm kind of in record mode. I'm really just focused on the performance and the overall sound as if I'm in the studio. I've found that if I import the MIDI, I spend just as much time tinkering with it as I do when playing it in. Either that or I accept things I never would accept as a player. If you can read the parts and lay them down quickly the whole process isn't too laborious and I find it more enjoyable.

I also enjoy working this way because it helps to keep my playing chops in shape (a little, at least). o/~


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## wst3 (Apr 16, 2011)

tough call, and at least for me the answer tends to be filled with so many variables as to be nearly arbitrary!!!

In an ideal world, where there is sufficient time to work, and I take into account the difference between MIDI and standard notation<G>, I start in Finale - for all the reasons that have already been mentioned, and because, well, because it's what I learned when I was but a wee lad (not a great reason, but I bet it factors in.) Mostly though, I just have an easier time thinking things through while staring at notation, instead of a piano roll view. If my sequencer had a better scoring facility I would probably stay there except for printed output. Maybe<G>!

And in that same ideal world I only move between domains once, so if I start in Finale and I need everything that the sequencer provides I migrate once. Moving back and forth has never worked well for me. It does, sometimes, mean making the same change twice, but that just seems to be part of the natural landscape these days.

Sometimes I do end up writing from a riff, or just writing with patterns, or whatever, something that plays to Sonar's strengths. Once I am satisfied with the composition I will then move it over to Finale, even if I don't ever expect it to be played by air breathing musicians. It can be really interesting to see what I've 'written' in standard notation.

But by and large I find it easiest to do my composition, and much of the arrangement in Finale, and then move into Sonar if I need to create an audible mock-up (which I find to be the case more often than not.)

The comment about helping one's reading and keyboard chops is spot on as well, though I have been importing the MIDI from Finale and cleaning it up from the piano keyboard only when I have to. I think the polite term is time-short, the more accurate term might be lazy!!!!


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## Ashermusic (Apr 16, 2011)

bdr @ Fri Apr 15 said:


> here are some thoughts on the subject
> 
> 
> http://bennewhouse.berkleemusicblogs.co ... but-equal/
> ...



I agree with this. Although it is possible with Logic to have a score that looks right and sounds right, I think it is more trouble than just keeping 2 versions.

When I am composing, I do not want to be worrying about what it looks like and when I am doing score prep I do not want to have to worry about how it sounds.


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## uCtaudio (Apr 16, 2011)

Hi!

I write in sibelius.

I'm trying now to convert to writing in cubase, but i can't get the same "overview" of the composition as i used to get when doing things in sibelius.

When i try to export from sibelius into cubase, i spend to much time getting it to "sound right" (edititing/removing midi info).

Does anyone have a clear strategy when exporting from Sibelius into cubase?

i've used sibelius 100% (just exported the audio) on this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvUMkPHAsDg (final mix starting at 1:40) using mr. Lovings soundset, and i think it turned out ok.

..btw it's a interesting video, a "making of" from storyboard to final product.

Erlend


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## almound (Sep 1, 2015)

I've avoided the export problem entirely by using an internal MIDI cable (LoopBe30) to establish control over the sequencer by the notation program, using the Kontakt retail player for automation and key-switching. Now I don't have to choose which software to compose in. Together, these programs work better than either one separately. I get better than the best of both worlds.


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## dcoscina (Sep 2, 2015)

I start in Notion and then move the file to DP if it's orchestral


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## Elephant (Oct 11, 2015)

@dcoscina - why do you choose Notion over Sib or Finale ? (Genuine open question btw !!) and then why DP if orchestral ? V interested if you can amplify that one-liner a bit - I suspect I could learn something new on this front. Thanks !! Rgds


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## sinkd (Oct 11, 2015)

dcoscina said:


> I start in Notion and then move the file to DP if it's orchestral


sub [Finale] for [Notion] and that is my workflow. More and more intrigued by Notion, however...

DP is the most open and flexible environment for detailed MIDI editing that I have found, though I haven't really delved into Cubase. I prefer DP to Logic, Pro Tools, Ableton, Sonar for this stage of MIDI tweaking and for organizing a large orchestral or wind template. For really detailed and convincing mockups, I cannot just import a MIDI file and go from there. I have to re-perform the tracks and make decisions about virtual instrumentation, different libraries and articulations that are necessarily distributed to multiple tracks that would not respond to Finale's human playback MIDI export--which often includes lots of extra controllers specific to the Garritan instruments, etc.

Really interesting thread. Thanks!

DS


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 11, 2015)

Sequence, scribble on paper, sequence, sequence, mostly sequence but work things out on paper if necessary.


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## dcoscina (Oct 11, 2015)

Elephant said:


> @dcoscina - why do you choose Notion over Sib or Finale ? (Genuine open question btw !!) and then why DP if orchestral ? V interested if you can amplify that one-liner a bit - I suspect I could learn something new on this front. Thanks !! Rgds



Notion is a very good compositional software program that I have followed and worked with since its inception in 2005. I'm fast at it and I find the playback to be good enough to give me a sense of what it will sound like. If I have to make it sound more convincing I can either port my ideas that I usually begin on the iPad version to the desktop version where I can substitute the notion sounds for vst libraries I have or else move to DP which I also find very fast and conducive for orchestral writing. It's basically what I'm most familiar with which dictates my choices in the work flow


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