# Any EIS Brass Writing Demos?



## Journeyman (May 19, 2005)

Greetings,

Does anyone have any audio demos of EIS brass writing? I'd love to hear some. I've only recently begun EIS (just finishing book 1), and I look forward to applying this stuff in the future.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 19, 2005)

I do not know the style you are looking for, but Spud is a trumpet player as also many of his students, have written much for brass. I have contacted Del Hake , and hopefully have a brass quintet piece up within a couple of days.

If you are looking for a specific style let me know.


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## Journeyman (May 19, 2005)

Thanks Craig, I look forward to it. With regards to style, I guess nothing too "old fashioned big band", if you know what I mean. The "swing era" stuff doesn't really do it for me. Thanks!
------------------------------------------------
As an aside: As I mentioned above, I've only recently begun EIS. Realistically, how far along will I need to get in the books before I can begin using EIS concepts to enhance my work?

-Mark


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## Craig Sharmat (May 19, 2005)

no old big band, gotcha,

btw alot of my pieces are very orchestral and feature brass but are not brass pieces, like I will post from other composers. David Blumberg sent me 2 synth tracks designed for real brass.

I started using the course right away with equal interval progressons, so it's up to you whether you want to start using some of the techniques in the exercises for your own writing. I would be happy to show you some early examples and many of the newer students here started using the material right away.


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## Journeyman (May 19, 2005)

Craig Sharmat said:


> no old big band, gotcha,


Although I wouldn't mind some more relatively recent big band, like Thad/Mel, Buddy Rich, Toshiko type of stuff.



> David Blumberg sent me 2 synth tracks designed for real brass.


This, I very much want to hear!



> I started using the course right away with equal interval progressons, so it's up to you whether you want to start using some of the techniques in the exercises for your own writing. I would be happy to show you some early examples and many of the newer students here started using the material right away.


Really? Even from as early as Book 1? I'd really like to hear those. 

Again, many thanks
-Mark


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## rJames (May 19, 2005)

Hi, Journeyman. Sorry I missed the big discussion on strings and voice leading over at Soundsonline. I would have loved to join you and Scott Rogers' discussion.

Its not brass, but here's a piece that I did a week or so into EIS. Its how I first put EIS knowledge to use. 

Its from page 9. Everything Spud asks of you is for a purpose. On p.9 he says, "AS this system can best be learned through the use of equal intervals it is not just important, but almost imperative that you learn the Root-Tones shown above. ... Use single tones and 1,5,10 (major and minor[10 or -10])...be careful not to mix them"

OK, I broke the rule about not mixing. But I played all of these and still do. And when I played them I discovered Elfman and many other film composers were using 1,5,10 for a certain sound.

My piece just explores a mixed (roots not always going the same step) progression. I was just exploring p.9!

I'm not saying this is any good. But just that I did what I was asked, explored some more and found something in a place that Ihadn't looked before.

I added an intro with some other ideas that David Blumberg, Craig Sharmat and I had talked about casually. There is a big bass drum hit after the intro (I do forshadow the melody a little in the intro). After this bass drum is the melody and 1,5,10 harmony that I came up with. Mostly, the melody is just the 10 on top.

Triads; Cm, (ascend E4) Emaj, (ascend E4) Abm, (changeup; ascend E5, stay minor) Dbm, (descend E4) Amaj, (descend E4; stay major) Fmaj, (descend E3) Dm, (descend E3) Bm. end of phrase 1.

then I just decided to explore again and reversed the order of the maj/minor. So instead of Cm, Emaj etc...
The second phrase goes; triads; Cmaj, (ascend E4) Em, Am(I kinda got off my pattern here and went with what I wanted to sound), Fmaj, Fmaj, Cmaj, Fmaj, Cmaj.

then repeat...

http://digitmusic.net/music/OneAgainstTheWorld.mp3


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## rJames (May 19, 2005)

PS. you'll find some very obvious EIS exercises near the end.


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## Jackull (May 20, 2005)

Thanks for sharing this info RJames. 
There are just so much information in the book that we can't grasp in 1 or 2 readings. Sometimes it takes a couple of examples or exercises of your own that will make you understand it better. 
So I think sharing some early works or exercises in any EiS topics will refresh all of us...

jackuLL


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## Journeyman (May 20, 2005)

Ron,


> Sorry I missed the big discussion on strings and voice leading over at Soundsonline. I would have loved to join you and Scott Rogers' discussion.


Thanks for your reply. I really would've welcomed your input in that thread. While I was being told that my suppositions were incorrect, I was never given actual informative answers to my questions. We kept getting caught up in semantics and emotion; not to mention the occasional left turn in topic. I take it that your answer is that the composer is thinking both linearly and harmonically at the same time? That would seem to make the most sense. The reason that I even questioned it at all was that people seem to spend a lot of time discussing voice leading, but I almost never see anyone discussing harmonic movement. That led me to consider the possibility that harmonic considerations were taking a back seat to voice leading and other linear considerations. And it seemed like Scott was the only person willing to discuss this at all. Actual answers to my questions seemed few and far between.

Regardless, here's my big conundrum. Call it a "musical midlife crisis", if you will: 

I'm a professional who has an extensive jazz and contemporary harmony background. It's taken me a long way up until this point. But I feel like I've reached the limits of where vertical harmonic thinking can take me; hence my current foray into EIS. Don't get me wrong; the Berklee/Schillinger school of thought is all well and good up to a point. But I feel that I've milked that for all it's worth and need something new to inspire me. Thus far in Book #1, the harmonic results are rather "common" by contemporary harmony standards, so they haven't really motivated me to write something that I wouldn't have conceived of prior to EIS. I know that the harmonic results of Book #1 were arrived at using the EIS method, which obviously differs from other standard methods. But thus far, the resulting harmonies are still fairly common; regardless of the technique that got me there. I realize that I'm a complete newbie to EIS, and that I've got quite a way to go. But perhaps I'm asking a question that may not be able to be answered by anyone that doesn't know my abilities personally. And that is, "at what point will EIS take me somewhere that I haven't been before?" Your website demos and those of many others have demonstrated harmonic and linear possibilites that very much impress me, and I'm quite anxious to reach that point in EIS that will open these doors for me. Thanks for listening!


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## rJames (May 20, 2005)

Alright, Journeyman. Now you've just humbled me with your credentials. (But luckily my naivete and ego are enough to keep me responding)

I have no musical background like yourself. I am a self-taught musician (except for early years on trumpet), who's old enough to have spent many years self-teaching.

My eyes were opened on the first day. Again, just playing all of those equal interval progressions were enough. 

I don't know what your extensive education has brought you. I always thought in diatonic. That you play an Am with a Cmaj. Or a Bdim, G7 etc. Then you modulate to play another key. When you modulate, you get this jazzier thing. So, if you modulate just right, over and over again, you start to approach jazz or filmic type music.

But Spud says that diatonic is a relationship that holds together the music.

Another relationship is structure. So, play all m9s moving an equal interval creates a sonic relationship. (YOu have to use a good voice-leading)

All of a sudden I can move to any "chord" in one step by using correct relationships.

That was enough for me. So, I think that for someone highly trained, like yourself, maybe Book 1 and 2 are giving you this alternative sense about how music can be structured.

Book 4 starts to take another type of alternative look at music. If we think about structures being basically stacked 3rds (open or closed) then why can't we look at structures being basically stacked 4ths, or stacked 5ths, or stacked 6ths, or stacked 10ths.

Here's a piece I did using fifths as the basis. These are not triads based on thirds. Mostly they are 5 part harmonies based on fifths (and some other intervals to join the stacks of fifths)

http://digitmusic.net/music/JazzFifths.mp3

I highlighted fifths in the piano solo parts to highten the use of fifths.


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## Frederick Russ (May 20, 2005)

You might also want to check out music from Oscar Peterson, Quincy Jones, Tom Chase, Gerald Wiggins and Herbie Hancock who all have taken the course.


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## Journeyman (May 20, 2005)

Ron James said:


> Alright, Journeyman. Now you've just humbled me with your credentials. (But luckily my naivete and ego are enough to keep me responding)


Ron,

I hope you're kidding. It was not my intention to "toot my own horn" here, but merely to explain my situation. Besides Ron, I've got to tell you that regardless of your self-taught status, I totally respect your work. I find your writing to be very fresh sounding and unpredicable (in a great way), and thought provoking. I only mentioned that I'm a professional so as to explain what I'm trying to overcome or "unlearn". Please don't belittle your accomplishments, as I feel that you've got a lot to be proud of.




Frederick Russ said:


> You might also want to check out music from Oscar Peterson, Quincy Jones, Tom Chase, Gerald Wiggins and Herbie Hancock who all have taken the course.


Frederick,

This brings up an interesting thought: When I listen to Herbie, Oscar or Quincy (or anyone else for that matter), I'm hearing them from my heretofore "vertically minded" perspective. That is to say, I interpret their playing through my own personal "filter", which was trained by my Berklee/Schillinger vertical thinking. Therefore I'm (thus far) unable to hear anything and attribute it to EIS directly. Are you able to immediately identify EIS when you hear it? For example, I can listen to Ron's great piece in his previous post, and notate almost all the chords, and can explain their function using my conventional techniques. I don't hear it as something that I can pinpoint as definitive EIS. But of course, I'm still an EIS beginner. Hmmm.......


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## rJames (May 20, 2005)

Journeyman said:


> Ron James said:
> 
> 
> > It was not my intention to "toot my own horn" here, but merely to explain my situation.This brings up an interesting thought: When I listen to Herbie, Oscar or Quincy (or anyone else for that matter), I'm hearing them from my heretofore "vertically minded" perspective. That is to say, I interpret their playing through my own personal "filter", which was trained by my Berklee/Schillinger vertical thinking. Therefore I'm (thus far) unable to hear anything and attribute it to EIS directly. Are you able to immediately identify EIS when you hear it? For example, I can listen to Ron's great piece in his previous post, and notate almost all the chords, and can explain their function using my conventional techniques. I don't hear it as something that I can pinpoint as definitive EIS. But of course, I'm still an EIS beginner. Hmmm.......



I didn't think you were tooting your horn, just placing yourself as you suggest. I'm thrilled that you think you can gain anything from a conversation with me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong; I thought I had heard that Herbie had not taken the course but just realized how it explains things through conversations. I could very easily be wrong here. It think its the same with Quincy Jones. Not sure. I know that Oscar Peterson took lessons. I talked to Spud not long ago and he said that Oscar had called him recently and asked, "so what's new?" meaning musically...(what else had Spud discovered, at 95 or 97 or whatever he is.)

No, you should not be able to recognize EIS in sound. It is a method of learning, not a style (as you probably already know). I mentioned that you might recognize some in my pieces because, expecially on my earlier EIS inspired stuff, the basis of songs is purely EIS lessons and assignments. 

Interesting thing; I can't notate all of the chords in my song. I could as I wrote it because there was a reason and a method to what I did. Or I could go back and analyze it. But it was written more from; where can this note go next than from what chord can I put next. Sure, the sound that it makes is ultimately important. But where can I go next is maybe where it differs.

Remember I am not a graduate like Craig and others that he brings in (and David) I'm just describing things from the inside-out. Its only my opinion.


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## Journeyman (May 20, 2005)

Ron,

Out of curiouslty (if you don't mind), how far along are you in EIS? If you'd rather not say, that's fine.


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## rJames (May 20, 2005)

I am one week away from Book 5.


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## groove (May 21, 2005)

Hi,

thanks rJames for sharing your earlier experience of EIS with us !

i just receive book 1&2 couples of days ago and it is great to ear the stuff you did with the firsts assignement...

i don't have the study background of Journeyman as i'm more or less self trained and i guess somehow that it helps to get into EIS without needing to compare to much with the diatonic system, witch is probably more than a normal behaviour when you have such a huge study background as Journeyman.

just sharing my thoughts.


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## TheoKrueger (May 21, 2005)

One against the world had some amazing parts in it ! Congrats rJames ,i enjoyed this very much


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## Craig Sharmat (May 21, 2005)

Journeyman said:


> Greetings,
> 
> Does anyone have any audio demos of EIS brass writing? I'd love to hear some. I've only recently begun EIS (just finishing book 1), and I look forward to applying this stuff in the future.



Hey, 

Frederick let me post these so thanx. Audio quality could be better but hopefully you find the writing interesting.

Dell Hakes Thunderheads

http://www.vi-control.net/EIS/Thunderheads.mp3

this from David Blumberg

http://www.vi-control.net/EIS/LearyFanfare.mp3


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## Frederick Russ (May 21, 2005)

And this one is from Craig Sharmat (by permission):

http://www.vi-control.net/EIS/Run_Down_and_Out_1.mp3


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## Journeyman (May 21, 2005)

Great stuff; thanks for posting these for me!


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## rJames (May 21, 2005)

Frederick Russ said:


> And this one is from Craig Sharmat (by permission):
> 
> http://www.vi-control.net/EIS/Run_Down_and_Out_1.mp3



OK, smarty pants.  You allowed it to be posted, now you have to answer questions about it. (I hope)

In the middle of this piece I can hear a motif. Progressively smaller equal intervals moving inward. The french horn that is in the clear F-Bb-Gb-A-G-Ab then out (E4) to E.

But it starts with G-Ab-B-A# a couple of times then C#-A. I see you're hitting, over time, (all?)a lot of chromatic notes. In the opening phrases you've played G, G#, A, Bb, B.

Give me a glimpse into the future. What are you doing on this song.


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## Hans Adamson (May 21, 2005)

Ron,

What libs are you using?


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## rJames (May 21, 2005)

Hans Adamson said:


> Ron,
> 
> What libs are you using?



I have EWQL GOld, Trilogy, Black Grand and Logic instruments; that's probably all that is being used on these two pieces. 

I also have RMX, Storm Drum (which is not on either piece), your Maljsmo (also not used on either). ANd I have the Kontakt2 VSL but didn't find the mod X-fades to be too good (I think too few layers.)

Waiting patiently for the Choirs and the Gold Pro Upgrade.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 22, 2005)

rJames said:


> Frederick Russ said:
> 
> 
> > And this one is from Craig Sharmat (by permission):
> ...



the two basic techniques used here are "Tropes" and "interval relations"

Tropes are a form of serialism, sort of like Berg 12 tone but in a more flexible EIS format. Interval relations deal with structures built upon equal intervals instead being scale based. For instance a structure could be E2+E2. So if we start with C it would be spelled C-D-E.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 22, 2005)

Hi Mark,

Here is another one for you. This one by Spud Murphy himself.

http://www.vi-control.net/EIS/Lost_in_a_Fuge.mp3


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## Journeyman (May 22, 2005)

Now THAT is cool, despite it's old fashioned nature! Love it!


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## rJames (May 23, 2005)

Scott Rogers said:


> Journeyman said:
> 
> 
> > Ron,
> ...



Hey, don't get me involved in this. I relly do wish I could have been involved in that discussion. Not because I know so much but because I know so little.

Scott, I just went over to Soundsonline to reread that thread. I thought the last time I was there your name was prominent amoung the posts. I can't see it in the thread any more. Wierd.

Back to the discussion at hand. I read a quote of yours inone of Journeyman's re-questions. And I think he just misinterpreted what you were saying. I think you're right. A breakdown in nomenclature or in effective reading.

At one point, I think Journeyman is responding to something you were answering about jazz arrangments and he interpreted it as the response to what he was asking.

In any case, it was a misunderstanding. 

Your signoff to Journeyman on this response sounds like a brush off. Don't let that conversation stop you from helping us all with theory.


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## Journeyman (May 23, 2005)

Scott,

I just don't know what to say. I have no quarrel with you; nor do I have any desire to start one. 


> We kept getting caught up in semantics because if I'm using a word or term one way while you're thinking of it in another way, you're going to have communication which is imprecise, which does no one any good.


All I recall is that I kept being told what I didn't understand (ie. your definition of the word "texture", or your take on the difference between chordal function and harmony) without being given any new or corrected information, in language that someone new to your paradigm could grasp. 


> There was much I was willing to talk to you about if you could have been a little more patient of my time, but you kept wanting answers to new questions before you had grasped what had previously been discussed. It was a subject that needed to be done with an additive construction mindset. Not an unfocused sporadic web of information that one may hope comes together at the end.


I can completely appreciate that you don't have the time to start typing out lessons for me, as many of us are working professionals. But at no time do I recall that you were asking me to be patient; that new info from you would be forthcoming. Additionally, I was hoping to get further insight from others involved in that thread, but no one ever did have anything whatsoever to offer. So if your perception was that I was asking too much of you specificly, consider that in asking so many questions that I was hopeful that someone else would've chimed in. Rather than giving me new or corrected information, your responses were more along the lines of "go read books and analyze scores", which is always good advice. And I've begun doing just that. But to reiterate, I was never aware that were I more patient, more info would be forthcoming.

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## rJames (May 23, 2005)

Whoops, my bad. I've had this page just sitting here and now I'm seeing, "it should seem more a fortunate coincidence than an outright planned condition."

Well, the better the plan, the better the music!


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## Scott Rogers (Jul 9, 2005)

..........


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## rJames (Jul 9, 2005)

Scott Rogers said:


> rJames said:
> 
> 
> > As a side issue...maybe Scott was banned from Soundsonline.
> ...



Whoever the troublemakers are that told you about this secret discussion will be found and strug up by their heels... or maybe not.

I've already PM'd you about this. But I'll make this public for those trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Yes, exactly. Your posts were deleted. This is what happened to East West over at Northern and to many others who have found asylum here at VI.

That is exactly why I thought you may have been banned. Unless you know something I don't know, I had no reason other than your posts being deleted for thinking that. I hope you can realize this was an honest mistake.

And you can see form the post about three up from here that I was far from believing that you didn't know what yoiu were talking about.

I said something like, "What he (Scott) is saying makes sense to me...at least as much as I can understand."

Look carefully at what I wrote in this thread and then look carefully at what the person wrote who told you there was some sort of issue here and you will be able to tell who is friend and who is foe.

Later friend.


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 9, 2005)

Hmmm - last I checked I thought this was an EIS discussion...? Suggestion - let's try to stay on topic because it seems like its meandering into a completely different direction. If necessary just start a new thread (or if you like I can split off the topics that don't really fit into a new thread) so we can get back to discussing EIS - let me know.


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## Journeyman (Jul 10, 2005)

Frederick,

As the person who started this thread, I'd like to contribute what I hope will be the last off-topic comment in this regard. All I ever asked for was knowledgable discussion on the musical subject matter, and possible answers to my questions. That it has snowballed over time into all this ill will is disappointing, and was never my intention. Shall we just let it go and move on?

-Mark


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 10, 2005)

I suggest this thread die. If you which to take this up with Scott, you could write him privately, or start a thread in the composition orchestration sþúØ‡*  p  ð
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