# Anyone here using Bitwig?



## Nate Johnson (Apr 4, 2020)

I just noticed its existence. Saw a screen capture on a YT video and was like what is _that_? Looks puurrty. 

Seems like its closer to the Ableton concept, which I auditioned for a while sometime last year and actually got along with quite well. It was just too expensive (Suite version) to keep in addition to Logic. 

Just bored and curious.


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## jcrosby (Apr 4, 2020)

I bought it when it was on sale. I like it a lot, but it's a CPU pig. I use it for editing and sound design but ultimately I kind of regret not testing it heavily for CPU before pulling the trigger. It's on of those DAWs where it behaves fine until you hit its tipping point, and the tipping point is about half as many VIs as I can run in Logic on the same machine. Even Live, (which I've used for years) gives m a higher instrument count. I'd demo it aggressively if entertaining the idea of using it as a DAW....


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 4, 2020)

Interesting...that definitely kills my enthusiasm a bit. Maybe I'll demo...


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## KallumS (Apr 4, 2020)

Also it can't work with video


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 4, 2020)

KallumS said:


> Also it can't work with video



Yeah, i saw that. I don't work with video 'in-daw' anyways....at least for now.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 4, 2020)

Demoing now....there's already things I really like.

- Being able to drag a midi clip straight into a sampler device is dope. Can't do that in Logic!
- I appreciate the layout of the device menus. Very easy to zero in on instrument selections!
- I like the audio editing view. Nice and big, clear waveform view.

I haven't gone heavy yet, so I can't comment on CPU usage yet.


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## Per Boysen (Apr 4, 2020)

Wenlone said:


> Sound design heaven.


Yes, I agree. It should be noted that Bitwig is a *modular* and *unified* music production system. I mostly use it for setting up interactive environments for live performances. But for the production of recorded music, I'm preferring Cubase on Windows and Logic on Mac. I also have been using Ableton for a long time, but in my praxis Bitwig now feels much more intuitive. 

In Logic you have the Environment and in Cubase you have the Logic Editor, but in Bitwig any kind of effect routing is built into the system; like setting up modulation from LFO, input amplitude, note numbers etc etc. When using the app it's really obvious that it was designed by seasoned audio and midi hackers that wanted to grab the most useful features from previous DAWs and combine All Best Features in a new user-friendly modular DAW.

BTW, anything is less CPU effective than Logic  and it's still a bit slow to achieve _Track Freeze_ in Bitwig (much faster in both Cub n Log)


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## Philip Vasta (Apr 4, 2020)

Bitwig is my main DAW. It's not perfect but I really like it. And although sound design and synthy stuff is one of its strengths, I actually find its flexibility great for mixing. For example, if I want to have the mix compress a little whenever the vocal comes in, but only in the middle channel and not the sides, it's very easy using Bitwig's built in tools.


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## Zx81 (Apr 4, 2020)

In one of those bored late night eBay moments I recently bought a cheap surface pro 3 i5 with 8GB memory . Bitwig seems to run fine on this relatively underpowered device. It also has a neat tablet mode that seems to work well with the surface pros touchscreen.

I think bitwig offers a neat alternative to other DAWs - the Grid environment looks like a fun place to experience with synth and fx designs. The ability to apply modulation to any element offers some interesting creative options.

I don’t see myself leaving Logic as my main DAW but I think bitwig offers something different and look forward to exploring.

its a niche piece of software but I think it has its place.


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## ghobii (Apr 4, 2020)

I bought Bitwig a few months ago and love it. It's workflow, and modulation everywhere concept, are perfect for my sound-design-centric way of writing music. Don't see myself going back to Logic.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 4, 2020)

ghobii said:


> I bought Bitwig a few months ago and love it. It's workflow, and modulation everywhere concept, are perfect for my sound-design-centric way of writing music. Don't see myself going back to Logic.



This sounds like what my brain is telling me. ‘Sound-design-centric way of writing music’ is damn near the best description of what I do as well!


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 4, 2020)

Zx81 said:


> In one of those bored late night eBay moments I recently bought a cheap surface pro 3 i5 with 8GB memory . Bitwig seems to run fine on this relatively underpowered device. It also has a neat tablet mode that seems to work well with the surface pros touchscreen.
> 
> I think bitwig offers a neat alternative to other DAWs - the Grid environment looks like a fun place to experience with synth and fx designs. The ability to apply modulation to any element offers some interesting creative options.
> 
> ...



Curious, how far are you able to take the Surface? Its probably just the marketing, but its the first PC machine that made me stop and go 🤔

And why can’t we ‘leave Logic?’ I had the same exact thoughts when I was experimenting with Live. I had it for 3 months, learned it, made a record with it (mostly), but ended up selling the license and ‘sticking with Logic.’ Sure, I had some quibbles with Live here and there, but it was fine, great even. And yet I wound up back in Logic.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 4, 2020)

I just watched: 

Thats like literally my life in music. Damn I’m getting sold on this!


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## DS_Joost (Apr 4, 2020)

Bitwig, Live and Reason will by design always be less CPU efficient. That's not a design flaw, it's a deliberate choice. These DAWs require all processing to be real time, thus preventing (most likely) a system of pre-buffering to be implemented.

I myself am growing reattached to Reason more and more. I thought, with the coming of the Rack Plugin, I would finally use it in another DAW, but instead, I got pulled back into this most inspirational piece of software. It's simplicity is such a breath of fresh air. Yesterday I started up Studio One again, but immediately felt uninspired despite it being great software. Studio One, and Cubase feel like a work environment. Reason feels like a playground.

Don't be fooled by some comments you'll find on the internet though. These are absolutely professional pieces of software, not toys. They are not meant to have every single feature one could think of. That would defeat the purpose of their simplicity.


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## jcrosby (Apr 4, 2020)

DS_Joost said:


> Don't be fooled by some comments you'll find on the internet though. These are absolutely professional pieces of software, not toys. They are not meant to have every single feature one could think of. That would defeat the purpose of their simplicity.



I certainly wouldn't consider Bitwig or Live a toy. I actually went on a bit of a rant about why people who think either of these pieces of software are toys are out of touch. And people who avoid their session views ("live" views), are missing their strongest feature - non-linear composition...

My only gripe is that having a proper Kontakt template isn't feasible compared to Logic. It's great for sound design and editing, it has some great tools that make Ableton seem a decade behind. I just don't see why they won't implement a preference that enables you toggle on a pre buffer for people who aren't using the daw for live performance. If you don't need it you leave it disabled and your workflow isn't impacted, if you do the DAW becomes a lot more usable for people who want to use it as a primary DAW.

Feature wise though I'd consider Bitwig to be the most unique DAW currently available.


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## Zx81 (Apr 4, 2020)

tomorrowstops said:


> Curious, how far are you able to take the Surface? Its probably just the marketing, but its the first PC machine that made me stop and go 🤔
> 
> And why can’t we ‘leave Logic?’ I had the same exact thoughts when I was experimenting with Live. I had it for 3 months, learned it, made a record with it (mostly), but ended up selling the license and ‘sticking with Logic.’ Sure, I had some quibbles with Live here and there, but it was fine, great even. And yet I wound up back in Logic.



For me at least - that old Surface Pro 3 has been sufficient to date. I bought the device on a bit of a whim as something I could have lying around the house that I might get a chance to play with when the family have all gone to bed . In that respect it's working great and offers a creative environment that allows me to explore a different side of music production compared to the library music i've been recently writing as a 'paid gig'.

Great to see fellow bitwig users here on vi-control - am interested to hear about what other folk are doing with it.


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## HeliaVox (Apr 5, 2020)

I love Bitwig so much, I use Logic only when doing video work.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 5, 2020)

Jeez louise, this DAW is everything I want to do. I've been playing with it all morning. The sampler is perfect. The modulation is incredible. The GUI is beautiful. So far its been as stable as Logic. Definitely feels better than Live 10 did.


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## Jack Weaver (Apr 5, 2020)

I use it mainly for its modulation abilities and the fact that it can easily control my Eurorack gear (via an Expert Sleepers ES-8). I generally record the stuff into audio and move it into Logic - where I do most of my work. Unfortunately, I lose a lot of spontaneity and interactivity this way.... kind of a drag. 

I really haven't taken the time or opportunity to get into Bitwig's scenes and loop arrangement yet. I hope to at some point. It'll be interesting to see what the new version of Logic does with loops. Maybe that would be a good introduction for me into what is being done with Bitwig already. Obviously it's going to take Logic a decade to get where Bitwig is now with modulation. 

Optimally I'd like a clever combination of the best of Logic and Bitwig. 

.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 5, 2020)

Jack Weaver said:


> Optimally I'd like a clever combination of the best of Logic and Bitwig.



What keeps you tied to Logic?


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## Jack Weaver (Apr 5, 2020)

tomorrowstops said:


> What keeps you tied to Logic?


I'm not tied to loop consciousness, even though I recognize their utility. Logic hosts my VI's well. I'm used to it and I like it. Oh, and there's that video thing...

I do recognize that I need more than Logic is giving me at this time. I don't know if it will ever be able to do what I can get with Bitwig - there's just so much old programming under the hood. I doubt that they would throw it out and start all over again with all the market forces involved. It's kind of like Pro Tools which has ancient programming that's grandfathered in. That's _one_ of the main reasons it is toppling now. 

For me, all I would need to be added to Logic would be the modulation, sampler, and control over external stuff like Eurorack - along with a basic loop paradigm and I'd be all set. 

(And please, allow me to move channels in the Mixer page.) 

Bitwig is so very new and its programming is still fresh and innovative. There's not yet all the bloatware we've become used to in other, more established DAW's. 

.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 5, 2020)

Gotcha. I only ask because I’ve been at this fork in the road before, when I was running Live + Logic. At the time, I felt I had to choose (I try to run a minimal system) and Logic won because it was native, less resources hungry, and I thought I’d miss the EXS24 factory library (haven’t touched it since, of course).

However, I do really miss having a more progressive DAW, one that can really move me along in my progressive style of composing. Long gone are my days of simply tracking/mixing live instruments, so it feels silly to be utilizing a DAW thats built on that mentality.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 6, 2020)

Produced something I liked in Bitwig yesterday, knowing full well I couldn't save or export in demo mode. Yup.

Not wanting to let it go, and not wanting to drop $400, I did what any good sound designer would do - recorded each track off my monitors onto my phone, imported them all into Logic, and reinvented each one with the tools I had available. It worked! HaHA. 

Because Bitwig used some different language here and there in the explanation of their granular sampler, I was able to look at Alchemy's granular layout a little differently and was able to get pretty damn close to some of my Bitwig sound manipulations. 

I think I remember this concept also being a part of why I stuck with Logic over Live. At the end of the day, the same tools are present in all of these DAWs. The language might be different. The approach might be different. But creativity and imagination rules!

The biggest reason I'm experimenting with Bitwig is anticipating switching OS platforms, as my Macbook Pro is aging and underpowered. I've spent the last year considering new and old Apple options, but haven't been totally sold on the options/value available. Maybe something new will come along and solve the riddle, but part of me feels like it might be time to seriously consider switching to a PC, hence the need for a DAW switch as well. Its good to know that Bitwig is a solid option for me, if thats the case!


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## Per Boysen (Apr 6, 2020)

Another thing I like with Bitwig just came to mind: the touch-screen support. Oh, and also the great third-party utility Ableton Push support, thanks to programmer Jürgen Moßgraber in the Bitwig user community. With Bitwig it's like whatever is going on in the software gets fetched into the Push and I can tweak parameters hands-on. And this leads me back to the toch-screen support goodies; when you're standing there in the zone, banging the Push (or your keyboard) it feels heaven-sent that you can just stretch out a finger to simultaneously move values right on the screen. I have an Asus Zenbook lappy and this may be why touch-screen works so good for me.


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## HeliaVox (Apr 6, 2020)

Per Boysen said:


> Another thing I like with Bitwig just came to mind: the touch-screen support. Oh, and also the great third-party utility Ableton Push support, thanks to programmer Jürgen Moßgraber in the Bitwig user community. With Bitwig it's like whatever is going on in the software gets fetched into the Push and I can tweak parameters hands-on. And this leads me back to the toch-screen support goodies; when you're standing there in the zone, banging the Push (or your keyboard) it feels heaven-sent that you can just stretch out a finger to simultaneously move values right on the screen. I have an Asus Zenbook lappy and this may be why touch-screen works so good for me.



Which Asus Zenbook do you have? I'm a Mac person, but I can't afford a new MBP, so I'm thinking of getting a touchscreen PC laptop just to run Bitwig. I may be contradicting myself by saying how I cant afford a MBP, but that new Asus Pro Duo is drool worthy.


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## Nate Johnson (Apr 6, 2020)

HeliaVox said:


> Which Asus Zenbook do you have? I'm a Mac person, but I can't afford a new MBP, so I'm thinking of getting a touchscreen PC laptop just to run Bitwig. I may be contradicting myself by saying how I cant afford a MBP, but that new Asus Pro Duo is drool worthy.



If its helpful, I’ve got a thread going over at the Bitwig subforum on KVR about PC laptop options...I’m also considering switching from Mac.









KVR Forum: PC Laptop choices? - Bitwig Forum


KVR Audio Forum - PC Laptop choices? - Bitwig Forum




www.kvraudio.com


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## DS_Joost (Apr 28, 2020)

I have to chime into this thread and have to say that I've been trying Bitwig the last few weeks, and to my great surprise...

I am actually super impressed by it! Holy cow is it cool!


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## Consona (Jun 5, 2020)




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## Nate Johnson (Jun 6, 2020)

I finally purchased Bitwig Studio today! Can’t wait to dive in!


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## el-bo (Sep 18, 2020)

tomorrowstops said:


> I finally purchased Bitwig Studio today! Can’t wait to dive in!



So...how are you finding it?


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## lastmessiah (Sep 18, 2020)

Yes, been using it since Bitwig 2. Definitely the best of the DAWs if you ask me. It is truly forward-thinking and doesn't just try to emulate a tape machine. It is actually more of an integrated instrument and powerful sequencer than a traditional timeline DAW. I don't even use external VIs with it as they are inferior to the modular built-in devices when used as intended.

If I do need to load a sampler VST or something I will user Waveform Pro, which has come a long way and has a lot of useful features that aren't present in the more well-known products.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 18, 2020)

el-bo said:


> So...how are you finding it?



Welllll

I haven’t been using it. Partly because I got annoyed at some minor eccentricities in the key commands layout. But mostly because in learning Bitwig (by way of its non-traditional approach to a DAW), I actually realized some questions I hadn’t asked of Logic. All of a sudden, I realized ‘oh - I _can _do that in Logic! The problem had just been I didn’t know the questions to begin with - does that make sense? 

This also coincided with that major Logic update (10.5), which all of a sudden brought Live/Bitwig type capabilities to the table.

Anyways, that and some recurring deadlines took me right back to Logic and I haven’t opened Bitwig since. Now that things are slowing down, I’ll probably fool around with it again, but probably just focus on using it as a crazy sampler. I’ll export as wavs to bring into Logic for assembly into bigger pieces. I’m sure the key command structures will still drive me nuts, but I made a piece of music in demo mode before I bought it or even tried learning it for real that made it on to an album I just released - so how bad can it be?

I’ll also point out that one of my main driving points to even try Bitwig was its cross-platform ability. At the time I was heavily considering switching to PC, so I needed a new DAW as well.


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## el-bo (Sep 20, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Welllll
> 
> I haven’t been using it. Partly because I got annoyed at some minor eccentricities in the key commands layout. But mostly because in learning Bitwig (by way of its non-traditional approach to a DAW), I actually realized some questions I hadn’t asked of Logic. All of a sudden, I realized ‘oh - I _can _do that in Logic! The problem had just been I didn’t know the questions to begin with - does that make sense?



It does make sense. Logic has been around for a very long time. And while it's functionality and capability have increased hugely over the years, it hasn't avoided the negative aspects of the dreaded 'feature-creep'. As such, it seems pretty un-focused and somewhat of a 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. Like you said, it will generally be able to much of what we ask of it...it just perhaps takes a little more digging. 

Bitwig, on the other hand, seems to be a much more focussed experience i.e That of a sonic/creative playground à la Ableton (on the proverbial 'steroids'). The whole system being built on a modulation foundation is a really powerful concept. Logic's Modulation plugin cannot compete. Adding the dock-able effects, effects racks that allow other effects to be placed in feedback loops and much better MPE functionality (Important for me), and I'm definitely getting closer to diving into learning it.




Nate Johnson said:


> This also coincided with that major Logic update (10.5), which all of a sudden brought Live/Bitwig type capabilities to the table.



Indeed! Though I've yet to really spend too much time with these newer features. I did have a somewhat (and I'll admit, totally irrational) adverse reaction to that release, which I've yet to completely resolve. Guess it was my turn to get that 'Please sort everything else out before squeezing in even more stuff' itch. 




Nate Johnson said:


> Anyways, that and some recurring deadlines took me right back to Logic and I haven’t opened Bitwig since. Now that things are slowing down, I’ll probably fool around with it again, but probably just focus on using it as a crazy sampler. I’ll export as wavs to bring into Logic for assembly into bigger pieces. I’m sure the key command structures will still drive me nuts, but I made a piece of music in demo mode before I bought it or even tried learning it for real that made it on to an album I just released - so how bad can it be?




Good that you managed to get a useable project from it. It's a great start 

And I think that there is definitely a great benefit to using Bitwig as powerful sampling creation tool, independent of LPX, but with the possibility of bringing everything into Logic to benefit from its particular workflow strengths. And by separating the creating/writing, mixing and mastering stages, (i.e committing to working with exported stems - From BW to LPX), perhaps it might help ward off the procrastination/perfectionism that can come from always having the ability to keep tweaking I'm never such an effective salesperson as when I'm selling an idea to myself  )




Nate Johnson said:


> I’ll also point out that one of my main driving points to even try Bitwig was its cross-platform ability. At the time I was heavily considering switching to PC, so I needed a new DAW as well.



Same for me. A while back, I realised I had been priced out of the macbook market, and prepared that when my current computer died that I'd end up running PC laptop. Bitwig and Reaper seemed like a workable proposition. The advent of the new Mac Mini and the fact that I now have a console for gaming (Mac/Bootcamp gaming meant a huge premium), means that I can still stick with Mac.

What changed your mind about switching?


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## Per Boysen (Sep 20, 2020)

HeliaVox said:


> Which Asus Zenbook do you have? I'm a Mac person, but I can't afford a new MBP, so I'm thinking of getting a touchscreen PC laptop just to run Bitwig. I may be contradicting myself by saying how I cant afford a MBP, but that new Asus Pro Duo is drool worthy.


It's the model UX360UAK, Intel Core i7-75000 CPU @ 2.70GHz 2.90GHz, 16 GB RAM. Touch Support with 10 Touch Points. I do regret though, that I picked the one with a 13" screen. Working on 17" is so much faster.

One more thing about the touch screen functionality: I can not move multiple objects simultaneously. Only one at a time. No biggie for me though, I can live with first riding the track level and then riding the fx send levels in a second go, rather than printing it all at once.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 20, 2020)

el-bo said:


> What changed your mind about switching?



Well, I’m sure I have. I’ve yet to pull the trigger in either direction. But I’m more likely to stick with a Mac, as the rest of my world is Apple (phones/tvs/surfing laptop/my wife’s two iMacs). The ecosystem functions really well together; things like Airplay I use a lot.

But as always, it comes down to money. I technically have said money to buy a new iMac, but I dunno...there are so many other things I could spend it on - you know, like new siding for my house haha.

For all of my debating on which computer to upgrade to, I still manage to get a lot of music written and released, so its not like I’m dead in the water over here or anything. It’d really just be a quality of life upgrade, which for sure will be necessary at some point!


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## el-bo (Sep 20, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Well, I’m sure I have. I’ve yet to pull the trigger in either direction. But I’m more likely to stick with a Mac, as the rest of my world is Apple (phones/tvs/surfing laptop/my wife’s two iMacs). The ecosystem functions really well together; things like Airplay I use a lot.
> 
> But as always, it comes down to money. I technically have said money to buy a new iMac, but I dunno...there are so many other things I could spend it on - you know, like new siding for my house haha.
> 
> For all of my debating on which computer to upgrade to, I still manage to get a lot of music written and released, so its not like I’m dead in the water over here or anything. It’d really just be a quality of life upgrade, which for sure will be necessary at some point!



Gotcha! I'm in the same boat; well, apart from the completing and releasing music bit 

I have a mid-2012 i7 Quad MBP, which apart from the issues I'm currently having is actually still capable of what I'm throwing at it. I'm not sure there would be a huge amount fo power difference between your computer and mine, despite yours being newer. Either way, it might be worth looking at a second-hand 2018 Mini. An i5, with 16gig has more than double my current cpu horse-power, and I can get hold of one of them for under 1K.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 20, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Gotcha! I'm in the same boat; well, apart from the completing and releasing music bit
> 
> I have a mid-2012 i7 Quad MBP, which apart from the issues I'm currently having is actually still capable of what I'm throwing at it. I'm not sure there would be a huge amount fo power difference between your computer and mine, despite yours being newer. Either way, it might be worth looking at a second-hand 2018 Mini. An i5, with 16gig has more than double my current cpu horse-power, and I can get hold of one of them for under 1K.



Yeah, the Minis are tempting. I’m a little hesitant based on what I’ve read about heat, fan noise and the general weak point of the system which is the integrated graphics. But the prices are reasonable and lets face it, it would definitely be a big upgrade from my old Macbook...

Anyways, I don’t want to derail this Bitwig thread too much with my endless internal debate on which computer to buy! Haha

All of this talk has inspired me to play around with Bitwig again, so hopefully I can take a break from my current project this week to do so.


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## el-bo (Sep 21, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Yeah, the Minis are tempting. I’m a little hesitant based on what I’ve read about heat, fan noise and the general weak point of the system which is the integrated graphics. But the prices are reasonable and lets face it, it would definitely be a big upgrade from my old Macbook...
> 
> Anyways, I don’t want to derail this Bitwig thread too much with my endless internal debate on which computer to buy! Haha
> 
> All of this talk has inspired me to play around with Bitwig again, so hopefully I can take a break from my current project this week to do so.



Great stuff! Have fun!


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## ghobii (Sep 21, 2020)

For anyone with Bitwig questions, there's a pretty active Discord. It's run by Bitwig Youtuber Polarity, and a few other Youtubers show up there regularly too. Bitwig Discord


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## el-bo (Sep 21, 2020)

ghobii said:


> For anyone with Bitwig questions, there's a pretty active Discord. It's run by Bitwig Youtuber Polarity, and a few other Youtubers show up there regularly too. Bitwig Discord



Really like Polarity's generative/Grid videos.


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## ghobii (Sep 21, 2020)

Yeah, he has some great ideas. His videos were the final push to get me to switch to Bitwig.


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## HeliaVox (Sep 21, 2020)

Polarity has been doing a lot of live streaming(on YT and Twitch) where he answers questions and creates 1 or 2 songs from scratch. They go on for 4, 5, 6 hours sometimes. Really good good stuff there. That man is a saint


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 22, 2020)

I remember really liked Baphometrix on YT my last go around. He’s reeeeallly thorough with each topic he chooses, so extra patience is required - but totally worth it!


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## HeliaVox (Sep 22, 2020)

Polarity and Baphometrix are on the Bitwig discord. It's a great place to learn and it's very active. https://discord.gg/KZeHr4


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## Pier (Sep 22, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I like it a lot, but it's a CPU pig.



That was my impression as well.

On paper it's amazing. It has so many cool features such as MPE, modulators, The Grid, etc. But after testing it and seeing my CPU consumed at 25% on an empty project I passed.

I also think the UI is quite ugly... but I imagine I could live with that.


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## jcrosby (Sep 22, 2020)

Pier said:


> That was my impression as well.
> 
> On paper it's amazing. It has so many cool features such as MPE, modulators, The Grid, etc. But after testing it and seeing my CPU consumed at 25% on an empty project I passed.
> 
> I also think the UI is quite ugly... but I imagine I could live with that.


Yeah. 6 months later and I still find ti to be very CPU demanding. Templates in Live eat a lot more CPU and I get spiking much quicker in BW than in Live or Logic


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 22, 2020)

Curious @Pier and @jcrosby - what are your system specs like? I’m running the tiny thing in my signature and really have no issues whatsoever. But I suppose I’m not running heavy orchestral either...


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## jcrosby (Sep 22, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Curious @Pier and @jcrosby - what are your system specs like? I’m running the tiny thing in my signature and really have no issues whatsoever. But I suppose I’m not running heavy orchestral either...


I have a 16 inch 8 core MacBook (maxed out), and a 9900k hackintosh.

I'd hoped to use it as a replacement for live for trailer/orchestral production music work but it just doesn't handle large instrument counts well. And I can't have nearly as many reverb sends before it starts to dropout on me... I've tried adjusting the buffer, adjusting the plugin sandboxing settings etc, but it just doesn't allow me to have the same instrument count as Logic or Live.

Maybe its a macos/BW thing, not sure... I've definitely tried tweaking every possible thing there is however and Live nets me a better instrument count than BW does. (Which surprised me as Live is kind of a CPU hog as well.)

It is pretty great for editing and sound design though so I still make use of it sometimes for stuff like that...


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 23, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I have a 16 inch 8 core MacBook (maxed out), and a 9900k hackintosh.
> 
> I'd hoped to use it as a replacement for live for trailer/orchestral production music work but it just doesn't handle large instrument counts well. And I can't have nearly as many reverb sends before it starts to dropout on me... I've tried adjusting the buffer, adjusting the plugin sandboxing settings etc, but it just doesn't allow me to have the same instrument count as Logic or Live.
> 
> ...



Gotcha. Yeah, now that I'm a few days into picking it back up, I'm easily seeing how I can run Bitwig into the CPU wall. I'm working on a commissioned piece now thats only 1 minute long, but fairly dense in orchestration (mix of audio, sampler manipulations, and some orchestral VIs), not to mention the mixer side of the equation. I've committed to finishing this 100% in Bitwig, so I'll have to get creative to avoid dropouts and glitches. 

Do you find that that hackintosh suffers as much as the 16"? In my quest for a new computer, I've flirted with the idea of going that route. And of course, I do wonder if running Bitwig on Windows is any different (its gotta be).


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## el-bo (Sep 23, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I've tried adjusting the buffer, adjusting the plugin sandboxing settings etc, but it just doesn't allow me to have the same instrument count as Logic or Live.



Hmmm...Interesting! That puts paid to my idea of using BW as an ambient-machine. I was thinking that having access to a 2048 sample buffer would allow me to squeeze more out of my ageing 2012 Macbook. If what you say is true, then perhaps not.


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## Pier (Sep 23, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Curious @Pier and @jcrosby - what are your system specs like? I’m running the tiny thing in my signature and really have no issues whatsoever. But I suppose I’m not running heavy orchestral either...



I tested it on a 5K iMac with a 7600K i5. Yeah, it's an i5 but still a high end desktop i5 at its time.

Maybe it's a Mac thing. I should probably try Bitwig on my music production machine running Windows 10 with a Ryzen 3700X.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 23, 2020)

Pier said:


> I tested it on a 5K iMac with a 7600K i5. Yeah, it's an i5 but still a high end desktop i5 at its time.
> 
> Maybe it's a Mac thing. I should probably try Bitwig on my music production machine running Windows 10 with a Ryzen 3700X.



ohhh you should definitely try it on that 3700x - thats chip I’d go with if I built something!


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## Pier (Sep 23, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> ohhh you should definitely try it on that 3700x - thats chip I’d go with if I built something!



Being able to pick your hardware is great. For the price of a Mac Mini I got a Mac Pro worth of hardware.

Windows is ugly but you get used it. Once I'm in Live there's no difference. I'm so glad I left Logic years ago.

For my day job (design + coding) I still use macOS but I don't know for how long.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 23, 2020)

Pier said:


> Being able to pick your hardware is great. For the price of a Mac Mini I got a Mac Pro worth of hardware.
> 
> Windows is ugly but you get used it. Once I'm in Live there's no difference. I'm so glad I left Logic years ago.
> 
> For my day job (design + coding) I still use macOS but I don't know for how long.



Yeah, I can definitely see the allure. Pretty sure I could get used to Windows (I use it at work anyways). I just haven’t been as jazzed to loose Logic. Bitwig has been ok, but this CPU thing is a bit of head scratcher. I don’t own it anymore, but I loved using Live 10 as well, so maybe thats also on the table. But I keep flip flopping on this topic, so who knows...


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## jcrosby (Sep 23, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Do you find that that hackintosh suffers as much as the 16"? In my quest for a new computer, I've flirted with the idea of going that route. And of course, I do wonder if running Bitwig on Windows is any different (its gotta be).



No. It definitely handles a lot more tracks before I have issues. I was able to get about 200 kontakt instances simultaneously playing 3 notes of polyphony at the same time in Logic, and the CPU still had headroom.  The MBP, while great for what it is, can't come anywhere close to that...


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## jcrosby (Sep 23, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Hmmm...Interesting! That puts paid to my idea of using BW as an ambient-machine. I was thinking that having access to a 2048 sample buffer would allow me to squeeze more out of my ageing 2012 Macbook. If what you say is true, then perhaps not.


It definitely handles larger buffers much better. The issue for me is when writing... Once I set the buffer to 256 or lower I get spiking pretty quickly compared to Logic/Live. 512's the max I normally use, 128 preferable. (Which Logic actually handles really well.)

Since I tend to mix in Logic anyway I haven't tried BW with a 2048 buffer yet so if that's how you'd plan on running it you should demo it. It may very well handle buffers that large just fine.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 23, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> No. It definitely handles a lot more tracks before I have issues. I was able to get about 200 kontakt instances playing 3 notes of polyphony at the same time in Logic, and the CPU still had headroom  The MBP, while great for what it is, can't come anywhere close to that...



Dang! Now where does it max out with Bitwig?


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## jcrosby (Sep 23, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Dang! Now where does it max out with Bitwig?


I haven't tried yet. I'll see if I can test that this weekend.

I kind of wonder if part of why Logic performs better is its core distribution. Logic seems to divide work among cores a lot better than any other DAW I've tried in macos.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 23, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I haven't tried yet. I'll see if I can test that this weekend.
> 
> I kind of wonder if part of why Logic performs better is its core distribution. Logic seems to divide work among cores a lot better than any other DAW I've tried in macos.



Yeah, its probably safe to assume a piece of software built specifically to run on its own OS is finely tuned to the task!


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 24, 2020)

Alright, so my session is currently at 22 tracks (mix of audio/spitfire/kontakt/reaktor) and 3 busses with a couple stock effects as well as vahalla.

@256, I’m running @55%~ peak CPU usage. When adding additional instruments or effects, I’m starting to experience issues.

@2048, I’m running @ 15%~ peak CPU usage. When adding addition stuff, no issues yet.

I’ve just got to finish cleaning up this track in the next day or so and I’ll share it for context.

If I can do it quickly, I’ll try to recreate the whole thing over in Logic for comparison - with a grain of salt of course, as the stock stuff in Bitwig obviously won’t xfer over.

All in all though, I’ve been enjoying working in Bitwig on this project. I’m definitely clicking less to get to where I’m going, vs Logic. Its little things like renaming a track in Bitwig also renames the regions - makes a difference. And of course being able to use modulation for effects instead of being limited to automation is pretty damn cool. Dragging midi regions into a sampler=dope. And I’ve barely scratched the surface!


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## el-bo (Sep 24, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> It definitely handles larger buffers much better. The issue for me is when writing... Once I set the buffer to 256 or lower I get spiking pretty quickly compared to Logic/Live. 512's the max I normally use, 128 preferable. (Which Logic actually handles really well.)
> 
> Since I tend to mix in Logic anyway I haven't tried BW with a 2048 buffer yet so if that's how you'd plan on running it you should demo it. It may very well handle buffers that large just fine.



Thanks! I tend to run into issues with some instruments, even at a buffer of 1024. So I thought I'd be better off using the piano-roll with the much larger buffer size, in Bitwig. I do have the free 8-track version, so will give it a go.


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## el-bo (Sep 24, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> All in all though, I’ve been enjoying working in Bitwig on this project. I’m definitely clicking less to get to where I’m going, vs Logic. Its little things like renaming a track in Bitwig also renames the regions - makes a difference. And of course being able to use modulation for effects instead of being limited to automation is pretty damn cool. Dragging midi regions into a sampler=dope. And I’ve barely scratched the surface!



It's also possible to rename regions while renaming tracks in LPX, though it might take one extra click. You can also modulate with the MIDI plugins, albeit a lot more 'clunky'.


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## Pier (Sep 24, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Yeah, I can definitely see the allure. Pretty sure I could get used to Windows (I use it at work anyways). I just haven’t been as jazzed to loose Logic. Bitwig has been ok, but this CPU thing is a bit of head scratcher. I don’t own it anymore, but I loved using Live 10 as well, so maybe thats also on the table. But I keep flip flopping on this topic, so who knows...



Have you considered Cubase? It's similar in concept to Logic but it runs on both macOS and Windows.

It's more expensive than Logic but you will save a ton of money in hardware in the long run.


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## Nate Johnson (Sep 24, 2020)

Pier said:


> Have you considered Cubase? It's similar in concept to Logic but it runs on both macOS and Windows.
> 
> It's more expensive than Logic but you will save a ton of money in hardware in the long run.



I demo’d it earlier this year. It seems alright. This all really depends on if I go down the PC rabbit hole - which today for sure is tempting the hell out of me!


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## Nate Johnson (Oct 4, 2020)

Yup, I'm fully engaged with Bitwig now. Finally. Not sure whats different this time around, but its probably that I stopped trying to recreate my workflow from Logic. Embracing the Bitwig world as it is - man what an elegant piece of software! Absolutely LOVING it.


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## shponglefan (Oct 31, 2020)

Just downloaded the demo for Bitwig and have been playing around with it. I was intrigued after seeing some videos demonstration its modulation capabilities. I've been trying to figure out a template/workflow for creating psybient/downtempo for awhile and Bitwig seems like it could fit that bill nicely.

I'll also have to see how much of an issue CPU usage is, based on reading some of the comments here. I think for electronic music at least, it should be less of a concern than orchestral stuff.


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## Nate Johnson (Nov 1, 2020)

shponglefan said:


> Just downloaded the demo for Bitwig and have been playing around with it. I was intrigued after seeing some videos demonstration its modulation capabilities. I've been trying to figure out a template/workflow for creating psybient/downtempo for awhile and Bitwig seems like it could fit that bill nicely.
> 
> I'll also have to see how much of an issue CPU usage is, based on reading some of the comments here. I think for electronic music at least, it should be less of a concern than orchestral stuff.



It seems to soak up a little more juice than my work in Logic. I run it at 2048 (for what I do, latency doesn’t bother me). My system is dogging me anyways, so its time to upgrade regardless of what DAW I’m working with.

I continue to really enjoy Bitwig and I’m glad I picked it back and stuck with it. Worth it!


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## ghobii (Nov 1, 2020)

The Bitwig beta that's out right now seems to have AVX2 commands added to the engine which should speed some things up once it's stable. There also seems to have been a lag in performance in the Mac version but that has been getting better too.


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## Pier (Dec 16, 2020)

Seriously considering Bitwig again after watching more Youtube videos on generative stuff.

Can anyone comment on CPU usage after 3.3 and AVX2 support?


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## ghobii (Dec 16, 2020)

Haven't tried the current beta that's out right now, but multiple people are reporting huge performance gains in it.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 16, 2020)

ghobii said:


> Haven't tried the current beta that's out right now, but multiple people are reporting huge performance gains in it.



You are not talking about the current version 3.3.1 (that has been a beta since yesterday), but 3.3, don't you? That is noticeably faster than before.

In the last version (3.3.1) came better multi core usage for Bitwig's own instruments, I can't say I noticed that.


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## Nate Johnson (Dec 16, 2020)

Wish I could chime in, but I went to 3.3 on a new computer, so of course its improved handling over 3.2 haha. Went from running the same almost tapped out session @2048 sample buffer on the laptop to no sweat @256 on the iMac - YES

I also opened Logic after a few months away - nope, not going back! Bitwig rules!!


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## Philip Vasta (Dec 16, 2020)

The thing about Bitwig that really draws me is the modulation system. It’s great for all sorts of things, beyond the obvious pure sound design. I find it intuitive to make very musical, varied sounds with the native synths, not to mention many 3rd party instruments and plugins when their parameters are exposed. It’s also extremely practical for dynamic eq and mid side processing when mixing. Bitwig isn’t just for loop-based EDM stuff.


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## Kevinside (Dec 16, 2020)

ok Bitwig is a Live Ripoff, cause some Live developers created it...
But to be honest...Who is using Live or Bitwig for orchestration...

I have the Live Suite and i use it for creating live setups with my Machine controllers...
Its wonderful for all the new electronic styles...

But Orchestration? NO WAY...


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 17, 2020)

Kevinside said:


> But to be honest...Who is using Live or Bitwig for orchestration...



Well, Bitwig has better features for articulation management than Studio one.
The only thing you can't do is searching for tracks (but you don't want to use a single large template in modern DAWs anyway).
Bitwig (and Live) are a major PITA when mixing.


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## Nate Johnson (Dec 17, 2020)

Kevinside said:


> Who is using Live or Bitwig for orchestration...



me,
me,
and me

soooooooooo

hmph


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## rbdone (Dec 17, 2020)

I have loved Bitwig for many styles, including orchestration! (switched from Logic)

I'm a hobbyist and have less experience with other tools, but the simplicity of Bitwig has been great 🙂


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## Pier (Dec 20, 2020)

So I finally got Bitwig!

I've barely scratched the surface and so far I'm very impressed after a couple of hours of playing with it.

Here are my initial impressions. I'm running it on Windows 10 with a Ryzen 3700X and a GTX 1070. This is coming from the perspective of a Live user (I also used Logic and Cubase for many years but that was in another life).

On a conceptual level, this is truly a next gen DAW, or rather a sound/music creation environment. It is a better Ableton Live than Ableton Live itself and a dream sound design playground. For example, I was considering getting Roli Equator 2 to play with samples, but I can do everything it does in Bitwig and so much more.

Having modulators everywhere is such an obvious feature once you've used it. It makes the sound design experience so organic and intuitive. It's like the whole DAW is a huge Zebra and everything is connected.

So far performance has been impressive. Buttery smooth compared to Live and my machine is no slouch. Plugins load and unload instantly. Animations render fluidly at 60fps unlike M4L devices which have always felt clunky and unoptimized.

I don't love the UI aesthetically, but the UX is excellent. They really have put a lot of thought into it. Mind you, I'm still discovering it, but so far everything makes sense.

I've been very impressed with the sound of all the devices I've tried. Both instruments and effects are on par with third party commercial stuff out there. I never used Live's devices much but I can see myself relying a lot on Bitwig's devices. Heck, I think I could live just with Bitwig's devices unless I wanted a particular emulation.

I can't speak much of the arrangement view and piano roll since I've barely touched those, but from the videos I've seen I don't expect any bad surprises. The arrangement view in Live is just horrible, specially in v9 and below, so far Bitwig feels like an upgrade.

The grid is just... woah. I've been trying to use Reaktor for 15? years and I've always hated it in terms of UI/UX. When I got into Live I also tried to learn Max and, again, hated it. The grid is just perfect. Super easy and intuitive. I reckon it's not as powerful (some colleagues use Max to build desktop apps) but as far as music and sound it is quite amazing.

*What I'm missing*

More experimental composition tools for generative stuff. For example adding randomness/probabilities in the piano roll or step sequencers (I know this is possible in the grid but it could be expanded further).

Being able to load devices right into the grid like FL studio does in the patcher thing. Also being able to load nested grid devices into the grid like Reaktor does.

Having an MSEG modulator. I've used this in Zebra so much it's become a fundamental sound design tool for me.

Color themes. You can adjust colors a bit, but I would like to have a light or dark theme for the whole UI. I don't love going from the grid which is all dark, to the arrangement which is light.

I've been looking at the Bitwig releases over the years and the company seems very focused and committed to their product which makes me excited to see what will come next in v4. Every upgrade seems to make sense, unlike with Ableton where upgrades are expensive and do not have much substance.

Edit:

Something I forgot to mention.

In Live I've had nothing but problems with plugins rendering in low DPI or Windows scaling issues. So far in Bitwig all third party plugins seem to render in hi DPI perfectly without having to change anything.

For example, in Live, Valhalla plugins render by default in low DPI. When switching to hi DPI they always render at half the size, and when resized they always forget which size you set them to so if I wanted to use them in hi DPI I had to resize them every time. In Bitwig this is completely solved (except for the Arturia plugins).


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 20, 2020)

Pier said:


> . The grid is just perfect. Super easy and intuitive. I reckon it's not as powerful (some colleagues use Max to build desktop apps) but as far as music and sound it is quite amazing.



Yes, it's missing many things, but it's ease of use make me use it. But what hopefully Bitwig soon adds is some sort of Reaktor style Macros, without them the grid is horrible for a bit more complex stuff.


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## Pier (Dec 20, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Yes, it's missing many things, but it's ease of use make me use it. But what hopefully Bitwig soon adds is some sort of Reaktor style Macros, without them the grid is horrible for a bit more complex stuff.



You mean like being able to create UI panels?


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## cloudbuster (Dec 20, 2020)

ghobii said:


> I bought Bitwig a few months ago and love it. It's workflow, and modulation everywhere concept, are perfect for my sound-design-centric way of writing music. Don't see myself going back to Logic.


That kinda sums it up for me as well. 
I recently switched from Ableton to Bitwig primarily for sound mangling and messing with matrices of short clips and sequences but will continue using the mighty reaper for everything else. The modulation options in Bitwig are nothing short of amazing and together with some other features save me a LOT of work on a daily basis; money very well spent.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 20, 2020)

Pier said:


> You mean like being able to create UI panels?



No, Macros in Reaktor group stuff together and hide that inside of it. So you don't see everything of your grid device at once, but you can group in modules (and sub-modules and sub-sub-sub-modules) and reuse these.


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## Pier (Dec 21, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> No, Macros in Reaktor group stuff together and hide that inside of it. So you don't see everything of your grid device at once, but you can group in modules (and sub-modules and sub-sub-sub-modules) and reuse these.



Yeah I agree about the nested devices (I mentioned it at the end of my previous post).

Although, you can have a knob macro modulator in the device panel (outside of the grid) which can serve the same purpose, no?


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 21, 2020)

Pier said:


> Yeah I agree about the nested devices (I mentioned it at the end of my previous post).



Oh yes, that was the part that I actually wanted to cite 



Pier said:


> Although, you can have a knob macro modulator in the device panel (outside of the grid) which can serve the same purpose, no?



That's a Reaktor Macro:


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