# Seeking a good piano VST



## ArtAt

I have Cubase 11 Pro and I'm looking for a good, hopefully not too expensive piano VST. I write video scores using the Key Editor (Cubase's "Piano Roll") I'm familiar with real acoustic pianos because I have a 2015 Yamaha U1 and recently sold my late wife's (classical pianist) 1911 Steinway 'A' - both professionally maintained.

I'm looking for VST that produces a good, clean convincing, acoustic piano sound, BUT with added control - *especially ADSR* (volume envelope control).

I've tried the stock pianos in Cubase 11 and was disappointed. Of all the stock ones the Yamaha E90ES is probably the best but some of the notes have weird "electronic"-sounding timbres. I've also tried Iowa Piano (free), Addictive Keys ($90) and Pianoteq 7 Stage ($140). The Iowa Piano is unstable and seems to cause crashes. I like the note-to-note consistency of the PianoTeq but it has no ADSR. The Addictive Keys is good except that it has a loud percussive thump around 100 Hz - readily visible on a spectrum analyzer - which is especially annoying on the higher notes when there are no low resonances to mask it. I can reduce it with careful EQ but only at the expense of adverse effects on the lower notes.

I'm a musician and my geek days are behind me so I want something that works well out of the box with just some basic adjustments. I want to be able to focus my attention on my composing and not get distracted by "off" timbres, funny noises and similar quirks of the tool.

Thanks in advance for suggestions!


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## BenG

Always recommend the Embertone Walker D Lite for a great, affordable piano!


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## manw

I second the Embertone Walker 1955 suggestion. I own the pro version and it has a lot of character.
My second go-to is Garritan CFX. They also have a lite version which sounds amazing!
And a third suggestion (you can't beat free as a price) - Piano in 162.


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## river angler

For classic piano with great dynamics from delicate to beef I use these two often both in straight orchestral and film score hybrid commissions.. (they are actually on xmas sale at the moment)

(Marc Knopfler's British Grove Studios Steinway)





The Hammersmith Virtual Piano Instrument | Soniccouture







www.soniccouture.com





C7 grand & C3 Half coda from a great Italian developer with this beautiful piano library:








XPERIMENTA Due - XPERIMENTA Project


https://youtu.be/FrHFJTPvT8o Xperimenta Sounds · XPERIMENTA Due Pianos - Demo XPERIMENTA Due 1.9Premium Pianos BUY NOW PIANO WEEK SALE! -40% OFFWhen Flavio and the team decided to make this sample library, they had in mind to create something special, something unique, that could really keep the...




www.xperimentaproject.com





The Xperimenta is particularly good at delicate dynamics.
Both have ample custom control features and both are
inviting just to play/noodle with on their own too!

I have tried the ones already mentioned in the past: although they are perfectly well recorded instruments I just find they all lack a bit of character in comparison to these two.

Piano libraries are a personal choice of course just as the real thing is! You will see some nutters around here seem to own dozens of piano libraries!

I do have Noire and Ascend but both of these are more designed for effected piano particularly Ascend. Both the Hammersmith and the Due have a sprinkling of sound designer-esque parameters on board but the focus is definitely on the quality of the base piano sound.

You mention you are after a piano VST offering an ADSR:
The Due has its own ADSR
With the Hammersmith you could use Kontakts own ADSR though I very much doubt once you start working with this library you will ever need to touch an ADSR !

Composing is my business so a very playable, recordable, mixable piano VST is essential in my sound pallet! Hence these two are my go to!


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## ArtAt

manw said:


> I second the Embertone Walker 1955 suggestion. I own the pro version and it has a lot of character.
> My second go-to is Garritan CFX. They also have a lite version which sounds amazing!
> And a third suggestion (you can't beat free as a price) - Piano in 162.


These all have full ADSR? 

Also, the Embertone requires Kontakt. Does it run in the free Kontak player under Cubase?

Also Embertone's own website describes it as "Punchy and percussive dynamics, great for pop/rock music." - I like softer , rounder sounds - classical and jazz. That's one reason I want full ADSR so I can soften both ends of the envelope. I currently have the PianoTeq and the Addictive Keys and they both have a percussive thump around 100 Hz, even on the highest notes that's distracting and not present on the other pianos I've tried. A piano, of course, is a percussive instrument but they take that concept too far.


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## manw

ArtAt said:


> These all have full ADSR?
> 
> Also, the Embertone requires Kontakt. Does it run in the free Kontak player under Cubase?


The Embertone runs in the free player.
As for ADSR, neither the Walker not the CFX have it "per se", as they are meant to be mimic-ing the recorded instruments and well...i never thought (while playing a real piano) "this needs a longer release time"; but i digress ; they have plenty of other types of controls (sustain resonance, pedalboard resonance, etc - other stuff you actually don't find on a real piano either, which you just play, but these are meant to help you make your instrument more like an actual piano), with CFX having more on that side. Also, while i love it's sound, it's worth mentioning that the CFX Lite has the Abbey Road ambience baked in the samples; it was not a deal breaker for me, as i happen to love that space.
On the other hand, the Walker has a very nice/warm sound - you can tell from the first chords that it's an old piano - not broken, old and it has a lot of tales to tell.


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## Germain B

You can take a look at Soundpaint (free) and their 1928 piano (free).
Deeply sampled and there are ADSR controls.


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## river angler

ArtAt said:


> These all have full ADSR?
> 
> Also, the Embertone requires Kontakt.


To be frank if you havn't got Kontakt yet you are limiting yourself somewhat.


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## ArtAt

manw said:


> The Embertone runs in the free player.
> As for ADSR, neither the Walker not the CFX have it "per se",


Then why did you suggest those products and waste our time when I clearly said it was a requirement? 
I'm looking for an instrument that has the timbre and resonances of a good acoustic piano because I like that sound, and I want to control the volume envelope to my taste. I especially want to control the Release - both the shape and length of the curve to match my music.


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## Polkasound

ArtAt said:


> Then why did you suggest those products and waste our time when I clearly said it was a requirement?


I understand you're new here, but going ahead, this is not how we talk to each other on VI-Control.


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## ArtAt

river angler said:


> To be frank if you havn't got Kontakt yet you are limiting yourself somewhat.


Right now the only instrument I need that I don't have is the piano I'm seeking in this post. So why would I need Kontakt otherwise? I'm happy with all the other instruments I have. I don't want to be one of those producers who goes out and gets a new VST or library every week and spends all his time tinkering and playing with them instead of composing. Having the latest gear doesn't make us more creative.

I want to have a *few* good instruments that meet my needs, and right now the only gap is the piano. But I'm trying to spend 95% of my time composing and not hanging out of forums like this talking about gear.


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## kgdrum

ArtAt said:


> Then why did you suggest those products and waste our time when I clearly said it was a requirement?
> I'm looking for an instrument that has the timbre and resonances of a good acoustic piano because I like that sound, and I want to control the volume envelope to my taste. I especially want to control the Release - both the shape and length of the curve to match my music.




My oh my……….”wasting our time”?
I’m sensing quite a non-appreciative attitude laced with hostility & entitlement. You might want to tone down the attitude, considering people are taking their time to suggest piano libraries for you.
And i agree not having Kontakt limits the choices substantially,its almost like trying to buy a bicycle without wheels 😜
The community here at VI-C is probably the friendliest and most supportive group of members on the internet. 
OP’s that don’t lash out at peoples suggestions generally will get more responses. 
Happy Holidays and may the chill be with you. 
Good luck 👍


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## ArtAt

Polkasound said:


> I understand you're new here, but going ahead, this is not how we talk to each other on VI-Control.


How was my question unreasonable? If someone had posted a request for advice about something stipulating some requirements, I would not have ignored that posters stated requirements because I'd want to be considerate of his time.


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## Polkasound

ArtAt said:


> How was my question unreasonable? If someone had posted a request for advice about something stipulating some requirements, I would not have ignored that posters stated requirements because I'd want to be considerate of his time.


Your question was perfectly reasonable, but please understand that whether or not the answer contains exactly what you asked for, everyone here is still trying to be helpful by chipping in advice that you may find helpful.

VI-Control is not like other forums. Courtesy and respect are the norm here.


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## ArtAt

kgdrum said:


> And i agree not having Kontakt limits the choices substantially,its almost like trying to buy a bicycle without wheels 👍


It may well turn out that there's a Kontakt library with the piano I need so I'll get Kontakt if that's the case, but otherwise it's an extra piece of software and one more thing to go wrong because it means getting the Player AND the library. So far I haven't needed it.


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## chlady

Synthogy Ivoryll is all I use these days and don't think you will find a better one if you are looking for a real piano sound with lots of dynamics. They have some different choices available but Steinway D is the the main one I use on just about everything. and has many profiles. It is non kontakt and uses it's own interface player.


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## kgdrum

ArtAt said:


> It may well turn out that there's a Kontakt library with the piano I need so I'll get Kontakt if that's the case, but otherwise it's an extra piece of software and one more thing to go wrong because it means getting the Player AND the library. So far I haven't needed it.




Having Kontakt offers a ton of more available choices with libraries,many are free or inexpensive. 
Most users that eventually purchase Kontakt generally regret not buying it sooner.
Not having Kontakt limits the available choices probably more than you realize.


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## Sunny Kumar Dallas TX

Polkasound said:


> VI-Control is not like other forums. Courtesy and respect are the norm here.


I am a new member as well and posted 2 requests asking for suggestions and got very detailed and credible responses. I am humbled by the effort this community makes to help newcomers and others out. The wealth of info available here is simply stupendous and i would humbly urge the OP to reconsider his approach to the help thats being offered selflessly by folks who are taking their time to respond. 

Embertone Walker 1955 (main or with additional mics) is fantastic ( don't know about ADSR) with the caveat that it can be very CPU intensive ( single core bottleneck) especially with heavy pedal usage. Thats been our biggest problem with it even trying umpteen work arounds. ( Only thing we have left to try is local VEP7 to offload the CPU load within Logic)


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## Polkasound

ArtAt said:


> it's an extra piece of software and one more thing to go wrong because it means getting the Player AND the library


It's not an extra piece of software. The full version of Kontakt will upgrade your player version.


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## Polkasound

Sunny Kumar Dallas TX said:


> I am humbled by the effort this community makes to help newcomers and others out. The wealth of info available here is simply stupendous...


I agree 100%. I'm not a "composer" nor do I work much with orchestral VIs, which makes me a real oddball on VI-Control. And yet, I've gleaned so much indispensable information from the helpful folks of the VI-Control community for which I'm grateful. I joined in 2016 and never needed to go anywhere else.


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## ArtAt

chlady said:


> Synthogy Ivoryll is all I use these days and don't think you will find a better one if you are looking for a real piano sound with lots of dynamics. They have some different choices available but Steinway D is the the main one I use on just about everything. and has many profiles. It is non kontakt and uses it's own interface player.


Wow - $300 - at that price it better be perfect! Does it have ADSR or a volume envelope editor? It doesn't say that it does in its feature set listed on its website.


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## ArtAt

Polkasound said:


> It's not an extra piece of software. The full version of Kontakt will upgrade your player version.


The free player needs updating? Why? What do you get with the updates?

What I meant by "extra" was compared to getting a VST piano that doesn't need it. But I still don't understand - do I need the full version of Kontakt for one of these piano's that we're talking about? I think of the "full" version as a sampler, which I definitely have no need for - I don't do sampling.


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## Duncan Krummel

ArtAt said:


> I currently have the PianoTeq and the Addictive Keys and they both have a percussive thump around 100 Hz, even on the highest notes that's distracting and not present on the other pianos I've tried. A piano, of course, is a percussive instrument but they take that concept too far.


Since you own Pianoteq, which is arguably going to be the most flexible piano software instrument you can get, why not lower the noise of the hammers and EQ out a bit of the 100hz zone? Would be free, and you’d get all of the benefits of Pianoteq’s playability and CPU friendliness.


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## ArtAt

Sunny Kumar Dallas TX said:


> Embertone Walker 1955 (main or with additional mics) is fantastic ( don't know about ADSR) with the caveat that it can be very CPU intensive ( single core bottleneck) especially with heavy pedal usage. Thats been our biggest problem with it even trying umpteen work arounds.


Speaking as a retired software engineer, it must have been written a VERY long time ago to only be using one core. We were writing medical instrument pipelines using PC's with quad Intel Xeons in 1999 and even then the OS and development tools had full support for routing threads to separate processors.

Anyway I don't think the Embertone is a good match as the manufacturer describes it as having "Punchy and percussive dynamics, great for pop/rock music."


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## ArtAt

Duncan Krummel said:


> Since you own Pianoteq, which is arguably going to be the most flexible piano software instrument you can get, why not lower the noise of the hammers and EQ out a bit of the 100hz zone? Would be free, and you’d get all of the benefits of Pianoteq’s playability and CPU friendliness.


I've tried several different equalizers and the only way to lower them enough adversely impacts the tonality of the low notes. Anyway, PianoTeq has no ADSR. On another thread someone suggested some ways of getting a little control over the volume envelope with features available in the Pro version (I have the Stage version) but they don't appear to offer a trial of the Pro version so I have no way to find out. 

So I'd rather find a good piano where I don't have to compromise so much.


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## Duncan Krummel

ArtAt said:


> I've tried several different equalizers and the only way to lower them enough adversely impacts the tonality of the low notes. Anyway, PianoTeq has no ADSR. On another thread someone suggested some ways of getting a little control over the volume envelope with features available in the Pro version (I have the Stage version) but they don't appear to offer a trial of the Pro version so I have no way to find out.
> 
> So I'd rather find a good piano where I don't have to compromise so much.


Gotcha. Seeing as how having ADSR control is very unusual for piano libraries, you may have a better time simply trying to find a library that matches the timbre you’re looking for right away. Are there any recordings you might be able to find and post here that have the sound you’re after? I imagine many would have a better time suggesting libraries then.

Just off of your previous comments about preferring a softer sound, I’d recommend looking at VI Labs’ offerings. Their Ravenscroft is certainly their flagship, but the American Grand also has a really velvety sound you may like. Plus, it has a timbral control that shifts the samples up or down. When trying to find a softer color, this can do wonders at even -1 or -2. Their EQ dial is also custom set for each piano so it’s very transparent.


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## cfodeebiedaddy

ArtAt said:


> I've tried several different equalizers and the only way to lower them enough adversely impacts the tonality of the low notes. Anyway, PianoTeq has no ADSR. On another thread someone suggested some ways of getting a little control over the volume envelope with features available in the Pro version (I have the Stage version) but they don't appear to offer a trial of the Pro version so I have no way to find out.
> 
> So I'd rather find a good piano where I don't have to compromise so much.


Not to be a downer, but if you can't create the piano sound you want with Pianoteq, I can't imagine you'll find many - if any - piano VIs that offer you that level of control.

I know you posted this on the Pianoworld forum too, but if you haven't actually played some of the relatively cutting edge piano VIs, I wonder if you may be fixating on the feature of ADSR unnecessarily. The amount of control of release and attack that's possible with instruments like VILabs modern U or the VSL libraries is phenomenal, even if those aspects of the timbre are modified via controls that have different names.

I'm not a professional concert pianoist as your late wife was, but I've been playing for 30 years and would like to think I'm pretty good. The amount of pleasure I've had from some of these libraries is enormous, and they've provided wonderfully immersive playing experiences.


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## ArtAt

Duncan Krummel said:


> Gotcha. Seeing as how having ADSR control is very unusual for piano libraries, you may have a better time simply trying to find a library that matches the timbre you’re looking for right away.


I'm not convinced it's unusual. Currently I have five pianos and only my PianoTeq Stage doesn't have it. On my FL Studio setup I had three pianos and they all had it. But most of these were low-end (free-$100) products. It may well be that the GOOD, high-end ones don't have it but that's why I started this thread to find out. 

As far as timbre and texture goes, pretty much any decent grand piano is fine as long as they did a good job sampling. The problems I've been hearing in the cheap-mid-range ones are usually careless sampling so a few individual notes sound "electronic" or harsh like they don't belong with the others, or weird resonances and noises like the Addictive Keys.


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## ArtAt

cfodeebiedaddy said:


> Not to be a downer, but if you can't create the piano sound you want with Pianoteq, I can't imagine you'll find many - if any - piano VIs that offer you that level of control.


The Pianoteq Stage doesn't have ADSR. It's been suggested that the Pro version might give me what I need but there's no apparent way to find out short of an expensive experiment since they don't seem to have a free trial of Pro. (Am I overlooking it?)


cfodeebiedaddy said:


> I know you posted this on the Pianoworld forum too, but if you haven't actually played some of the relatively cutting edge piano VIs, I wonder if you may be fixating on the feature of ADSR unnecessarily.


There's only one ADSR feature I care about and that's to specify the Release *curve* . . . key word being "curve" hyperbolic, linear, parabolic makes big differences. Addictive Keys lets be draw a curve does stuff like that disappear above $100? I agree that there may be other ways of doing what I want but how do you suggest I find out?

Do any of those cutting edge ones offer free trials of their full version?



cfodeebiedaddy said:


> I'm not a professional concert pianoist as your late wife was, but I've been playing for 30 years and would like to think I'm pretty good. The amount of pleasure I've had from some of these libraries is enormous, and they've provided wonderfully immersive playing experiences.


Exactly and she was a player - mostly romantic, late romantic, and early-modern chamber music - very traditional. Whereas I'm a producer of music for videos. I don't play; I compose on a computer. I have a huge backlog of stuff to produce because I switched to Cubase which has a long learning curve so I'm backed up. Plus I just returned from southern Africa where I got stuck due to Omicron but I used the time to gather African material. 

I love the timbre and texture of acoustic instruments like piano and cello, and I compose with a piano keyboard (A440, equal-temperament) in mind but that's all I care about tradition and convention. I don't care about their envelopes - want to make my own.


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## ag75

Check out Piano in Blue by Cinesamples. It runs on the free Kontakt player. It’s endlessly inspiring to my ear. Warm, dark, jazzy sound. https://cinesamples.com/product/piano-in-blue


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## Duncan Krummel

ArtAt said:


> I'm not convinced it's unusual. Currently I have five pianos and only my PianoTeq Stage doesn't have it. On my FL Studio setup I had three pianos and they all had it. But most of these were low-end (free-$100) products. It may well be that the GOOD, high-end ones don't have it but that's why I started this thread to find out.


I own a fair few top notch piano libraries, and don’t see any ADSR control. I’d guess on these higher quality libraries it’s not included specifically because it doesn’t make a lot of sense to have it. A piano’s natural sustain and release is what it is, and if you wanted to lengthen this release beyond its natural decay you’d end up with a sound that doesn’t connect well to the sustain. Lower end libraries may include it if they didn’t sample releases as a way to fake it.

Again, I’d recommend you check out VI Labs’ offerings. They’re currently having a 30% off sale for the holidays, and they do allow you to adjust the volume, at least, of the releases. As a concert pianist myself, I can attest that they are very, VERY well sampled.


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## chlady

ArtAt said:


> Wow - $300 - at that price it better be perfect! Does it have ADSR or a volume envelope editor? It doesn't say that it does in its feature set listed on its website.


That price is for a group 3 different pianos . You can get the Steinway American D which is there largest one piano lib and I think is there best on sale right now for $150 until Jan 3rd at Illio. They have pictures of the different pages of the interface with all of it's editing features as well . Well worth checking out . https://www.ilio.com/ivory-2-american-concert-d


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## Polkasound

ArtAt said:


> The free player needs updating? Why? What do you get with the updates?


Kontakt does get updated now and then, but I'm talking about an _upgrade_ from Free to Full. I've never used the Player edition so I don't personally know how limiting it is, but when you open a player library in Kontakt full, depending on the library, you can click the wrench icon to go under the hood and add an ADSR modulator to it. The most important benefit you gain by going under the hood, in my opinion, is the ability to fix/customize libraries and make them better.



ArtAt said:


> But I still don't understand - do I need the full version of Kontakt for one of these piano's that we're talking about? I think of the "full" version as a sampler, which I definitely have no need for - I don't do sampling.


I didn't bother to look back at the pianos under discussion, but when you have the full version of Kontakt, you open your options up to every Kontakt library in existence, not just the ones licensed for the player version. For example, some of my favorite pianos come from SampleTekk. Naturally they don't come with ADSR in the GUI, but if you want to adjust it under the hood, no problem.

(FWIW, you can adjust the attack curve in Kontakt, but there's no curve adjustment for the release.)


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## PaulieDC

ArtAt said:


> How was my question unreasonable? If someone had posted a request for advice about something stipulating some requirements, I would not have ignored that posters stated requirements because I'd want to be considerate of his time.


Because we are all like a family on here and when you ask for help but it's not exactly the info you need, you don't attack someone in our family with "*why did you waste our time*"... and it's even more amazing that you don't see the problem with such an ungrateful reply. You could have _chosen_ to say something like "thanks for replying back... I'm pretty much staying with pianos with ASDR capability". It's called graciousness.

And to prove my point, there are still people on here willing to offer you information. Amazing though... you've actually spent more than 5% of your time on this forum getting info. 

Here's what you need. Fully editable. Have a happy 2022.


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## re-peat

Duncan Krummel said:


> I own a fair few top notch piano libraries, and don’t see any ADSR control. I’d guess on these higher quality libraries it’s not included specifically because it doesn’t make a lot of sense to have it.



Actually, *Duncan*, I think it makes a lot of sense to add ADSR-control to piano libraries, of whatever quality. Would do most of them a lot of good.

Slightly increasing the attack can help to remove some of the sharp-edged transients in some libraries — one of the best things they ever added to the Synchron pianos is the Smooth Attack parameter —, control over the decay and sustain can help to remove some of the accumulated weight of dense chordal sustains, or, depending on what the music requires, help give the phrasing a more sprightly character, and in some cases also helps to get rid of the somewhat compressed sound which a number of piano libraries suffer from. And control over the release is also highly desirable, I find, in that it can make the difference between a piano fitting the part or not: there are plenty of good stylistic and musical arguments to adapt the release length and level to the specifics of the music and/or the aesthetic of the recording/production.

Being able to adjust the ADSR to the perfomance can also be very beneficial to the perception of dynamics in a piano performance.

If the option’s available — it rarely is on the GUI unfortunately, but with some libraries, at least you’re allowed to open up the Kontakt editor (*) and make some changes there — , I will ALWAYS tweak the ADSR to make the library better fit the music it’s been asked to render.

- - - - -

(*) If you need one good reason to upgrade to Kontakt, *ArtAt*, this would be it, in my opinion: the ability to customize your libraries to your needs and desires. Not all libraries allow it, but plenty of them do, and it can avoid a whole lot of frustration and disappointment if you're able to optimize the settings of a library to better fit your playing style or the music you're working on.

In none of the versions of Pianoteq there is traditional ADSR-control. You can however change a few things:
(1) Raising the _Direct Sound Duration_ will give the impression of speeding up the decay. (Lowering that parameter will result in very slow decays.)
(2) In the Note Edit window (of Pianoteq Pro), there’s is an _Attack _parameter. A bit fiddly to set up just right, but doable.
(3) Lowering the _Damping Duration_ is more or less the same thing as controlling the release. It’s not quite the same, but similar enough.
(4) Raising the _Energy_ parameter can sometimes help to diffuse and muffle the Attack stage a bit. Whether this sounds convincing depends on the circumstances though.
(5) Editing the Soundboard parameters can also have a profound effect of the nature, strength and length(s) of the envelope stages of the notes.

But as always with Pianoteq: you need to be careful with all these settings. For best effect, in my experience, all these parameters should have slightly different values for every single note. That’s fairly easy to set up in Pianoteq Pro by randomizing the values and then, if necessary, adjust some of them so that they work best for the piece.

_


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## liquidlino

ArtAt said:


> But I'm trying to spend 95% of my time composing and not hanging out of forums like this talking about gear.


You don't have to be on the forum you know, it's not a requirement. This is a phenomonal forum, full of amazing pros and serious amateurs who willingly impart their hard earned knowledge and lessons learned from buying crap libraries that were a waste of money.

That said. If you want full ADSR control etc etc etc. UVI Keysuite is what you're looking for. YOu can dip your toe in with just the Austrian Grand, it's the pic of the bunch. Plays with UVI Workstation free player, has full ADSR etc, mic positions, FX.


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## liquidlino

PaulieDC said:


> And to prove my point, there are still people on here willing to offer you information. Amazing though... you've actually spent more than 5% of your time on this forum getting info.


I know, right. it's like we're pathologically wired to be nice regardless of how crappy someones behaviour is.


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## liquidlino

Also. See this massive thread. Right at the end, I've rendered every single piano from the UVI Keysuite Acoustic bundle, so you can see if any suit your needs from a sound perspective.






Ultimate Piano Comparison Thread


Creating a new diversion for myself here and hoping it provides some value to the community. The aim is to create a comprehensive piano comparison using high quality MIDI. Too often demos, don't offer such consistency. It can be hard to tell what to buy. Hopefully people will join up and get...




vi-control.net


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## river angler

ArtAt said:


> ...waste our time





ArtAt said:


> How was my question unreasonable? If someone had posted a request for advice about something stipulating some requirements, I would not have ignored that posters stated requirements because I'd want to be considerate of his time.





ArtAt said:


> ...But I'm trying to spend 95% of my time composing and not hanging out of forums like this talking about gear.


I've been surprised to read your callus remarks especially your being a new member here: I find your attitude somewhat insulting my intelligence and everyone else who has contributed to this thread.

This is not an exam room to test peoples IQ any more than it is a support page on a manufacturers website to demand instantly precise information. It is a forum to "reach out" not "shout out" for freely offered advice and informative discussion. From your reaction to the wealth of contributors to a thread *you* decided to open it appears you have a somewhat impatient and ungracious attitude to what is being offered in good will.

As a gesture of my own nature to seek the better side of people: If you really do want to be able to control the release and have access to the softer sensitive dynamics, along with some of the other very apt suggestions here, I will tell you that of the ones I mentioned earlier the Xperimenta Piano Due is probably another one that fits close to what you're after but does require the full version of Kontakt which 99% of people on this forum and any other will agree is pretty much an indispensable platform for most decent libraries.

...but please! next time you decide to open a thread on this forum or any other for that matter at least have the decency to respect you are getting information offered from hobbyists and pros alike who are all willing to share their thoughts, views and advise to help *you*.


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## manw

ArtAt said:


> Then why did you suggest those products and waste our time when I clearly said it was a requirement?


I wasn't going to dignify your reply with mine, but just to keep in tone with the rest of this community which prides itself for it's friendly-ness and users putting petty remarks aside for the greater good (which is more like being part of a family, where each supports the others in the common endeavour of gaining knowledge), i will show you instead how ADSR is masked in those instruments :




This is Walker 1955, the full version - the sample start knob acts as the "A" from your ADSR. the release volume acts as the "R". They are not specifically named ADSR, because those (ADSR) are synth parameters and a piano is an organic instrument made out of wood and metal and (used to, but not anymore) ivory. On the other hand, you say you want a natural sounding piano, but the S90 included in Halion Sonic (Cubase) is too synthy, while specifically requiring for synthy controls. To me it sounds more like you don't know what you want and your post was more to start some sort of flame...
And to conclude (right before i unsubscribe this thread) - might i suggest making a similar thread on KVR? It looks to me you could feel right at home there.


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## Rowy van Hest

I use Arturia Piano V2. I also own PianoTeq, but the V2 has a nicer sound, I think.


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## ArtAt

Polkasound said:


> (FWIW, you can adjust the attack curve in Kontakt, but there's no curve adjustment for the release.)


It's the release that I care the most about.


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## ArtAt

Rowy van Hest said:


> I use Arturia Piano V2. I also own PianoTeq, but the V2 has a nicer sound, I think.


How much control does Arturia give you on the release?


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## ChrisSiuMusic

CinePiano is my personal choice. Perfect balance of frequencies across the whole range, easy to use, and comes with 4 distinct patches. Love it.


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## ArtAt

manw said:


> _ They are not specifically named ADSR, because those (ADSR) are synth parameters and a piano is an organic instrument made out of wood and metal and (used to, but not anymore) ivory. On the other hand, you say you want a natural sounding piano, but the S90 included in Halion Sonic (Cubase) is too synthy, while specifically requiring for synthy controls.To me it sounds more like you don't know what you want _


As I said above there are plenty of sampled acoustic pianos with ADSR controls, so the idea that ADSR is only appropriate for synths is simply not true. I just want a piano that has better *quality* samples than the ones I've found so far. 

I think some of the pushback on ADSR for pianos is from purists who are trying to make a piano that matches a real physical piano in every respect - that market segment is also why there is so much interest in getting details like pedal noise just right. I don't want any pedal noise at all. In contemporary music production in 2021 many of us are not wedded to tradition - we're interested in using the *sounds* the way we want. I like the timbre and texture of instruments like piano and cello but I want more control over them. If you think ADSR is sacreligious for a piano keep in mind that in DAWs we "play" cello on a MIDI-editing keyboard! 

I don't want a piano that sounds synthy because synthy sounds are from the 1980's. In the DAW world getting precious about old fashioned and traditional instruments is not just for pianos. You should hear the old-tymers wax nostalgic and argue passionately about DX7's.

The Walker may be a good piano but the manufacturer's description of it being "punchy and percussive" doesn't sound like what I'm seeking.


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## ArtAt

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> CinePiano is my personal choice. Perfect balance of frequencies across the whole range, easy to use, and comes with 4 distinct patches. Love it.



How much control does CinePiano offer on the volume envelope - especially the Release?


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## river angler

ArtAt said:


> As I said above there are plenty of sampled acoustic pianos with ADSR controls, so the idea that ADSR is only appropriate for synths is simply not true. I just want a piano that has better *quality* samples than the ones I've found so far.
> 
> I think some of the pushback on ADSR for pianos is from purists who are trying to make a piano that matches a real physical piano in every respect - that market segment is also why there is so much interest in getting details like pedal noise just right. I don't want any pedal noise at all. In contemporary music production in 2021 many of us are not wedded to tradition - we're interested in using the *sounds* the way we want. I like the timbre and texture of instruments like piano and cello but I want more control over them. If you think ADSR is sacreligious for a piano keep in mind that in DAWs we "play" cello on a MIDI-editing keyboard!
> 
> I don't want a piano that sounds synthy because synthy sounds are from the 1980's. In the DAW world getting precious about old fashioned and traditional instruments is not just for pianos. You should hear the old-tymers wax nostalgic and argue passionately about DX7's.
> 
> The Walker may be a good piano but the manufacturer's description of it being "punchy and percussive" doesn't sound like what I'm seeking.



You continue to plough on with what now only looks like an agenda of questions and contrary comment to everyone who has contributed to this thread that you initiated: ignoring the unease expressed at your curt remarks with what I can only describe as disdain.

The poster you replied to here being a case in point where you continue to focus on the technical information he has kindly given you but completely ignore his complaints about your attitude on this forum.

Sometimes in life it's easier just to let such things pass on by but sometimes if a message isn't getting through it has to be spelled out!

I have great respect for the good nature of contributors on this forum but I simply can't stand seeing that good will being taken for granted.

Im out.


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## Rowy van Hest

ArtAt said:


> How much control does Arturia give you on the release?


Manual Piano V


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## Trash Panda

ArtAt said:


> As I said above there are plenty of sampled acoustic pianos with ADSR controls, so the idea that ADSR is only appropriate for synths is simply not true. I just want a piano that has better *quality* samples than the ones I've found so far.
> 
> I think some of the pushback on ADSR for pianos is from purists who are trying to make a piano that matches a real physical piano in every respect - that market segment is also why there is so much interest in getting details like pedal noise just right. I don't want any pedal noise at all. In contemporary music production in 2021 many of us are not wedded to tradition - we're interested in using the *sounds* the way we want. I like the timbre and texture of instruments like piano and cello but I want more control over them. If you think ADSR is sacreligious for a piano keep in mind that in DAWs we "play" cello on a MIDI-editing keyboard!
> 
> I don't want a piano that sounds synthy because synthy sounds are from the 1980's. In the DAW world getting precious about old fashioned and traditional instruments is not just for pianos. You should hear the old-tymers wax nostalgic and argue passionately about DX7's.
> 
> The Walker may be a good piano but the manufacturer's description of it being "punchy and percussive" doesn't sound like what I'm seeking.


You’re a dick. Please go away.


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## Sunny Kumar Dallas TX

Trash Panda said:


> You’re a dick. Please go away.


The OP is incredibly tonedeaf. I am surprised that despite his repeated ungrateful replies, the good hearted folks here have continued to supply him with additional info, though he has clearly tested some people's patience. 

Just for kicks, i followed thru on a suggestion earlier in this thread about KVR and tried to browse there. I lasted all of 10 minutes... its a trollfest out there 😂😂

I, for one, am glad to have found a civil and friendly forum and hope it stays that way.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Virtual instruments, sampled pianos, instrument plug-ins... those are all terms that cool people use.

Talking about "a VST" is totally uncool.


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## Duncan Krummel

re-peat said:


> Actually, *Duncan*, I think it makes a lot of sense to add ADSR-control to piano libraries, of whatever quality. Would do most of them a lot of good.
> […]


Those are some good points, Piet. I suppose my own use case is coloring my perspective here. I simply have no use for it, but, as many other examples have shown, I’m certainly objectively wrong about many higher end libraries lacking ADSR control.

Although EW Pianos is not what I would consider to be either playable or sonically useful (despite it being my go to for many years), it’s certainly a deeply sampled and constructed option.

Though of course it’s an inherently different approach, I wonder if a transient shaper might not be useful here in softening the attacks? You certainly have much more experience using these sorts of tools, and your advice on TSB was useful for me (thank you, again), so if that’s a viable option it may save the OP money and frustration.


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## Nick Batzdorf

I still like Quantum Leap Pianos a lot for a rich, round sound.

If you're a real keyboard player, Pianoteq is the most responsive one I know of.

The old Art Vista Virtual Grand still sounds excellent.

Galaxy still stands up.

Synthogy Ivory has to be on the list.

I consider Spectrasonics Keyscape the gold standard, meaning everything else has to be compared to it.

They all sound different from one another, and most of the above libraries have multiple pianos.

What am I forgetting?


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## Duncan Krummel

@Nick Batzdorf, don’t want to completely overtake the conversation with my own opinions, but I always find piano library discussions particularly interesting given the wide range of preferences.

EW Pianos I find the opposite of round, instead being overly strident and harsh at all dynamics. Keyscape is a beautiful collection, but I find the releases to be unnatural and the overall sound to be detached from the instrument when playing. It’s a hard thing to describe, a feeling more than anything.

Pianoteq was a near miss for me until I created my own morph between libraries and adjusted the parameters. This can of course be written up as just ‘what one has to do with it,’ but I’d be more impressed if the basic patches were more realistic. The potential is clearly there already, but I feel they’ve missed the mark out of the box. That said, now I love it.

I’m a broken record, but I will continue to stand by VI Labs’ line of pianos. Each one is brilliantly done, playable, responsive, flexible, and tonally complete. My 2¢.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Duncan Krummel said:


> EW Pianos I find the opposite of round, instead being overly strident and harsh at all dynamics


The Quantum Leap Pianos are strident and harsh? That doesn't compute, especially the Bosendorfer (which is the one I use mostly).

What speakers do you have? I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's a serious question!


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## re-peat

Trash Panda said:


> You’re a dick.



ArtAt is not a dick. At least, he hasn’t given any indication of being one. A touch uncourteous maybe, but not a dick. He got a bit frustrated by getting answers he SPECIFICALLY said he wasn’t interested in — a totally understandable reaction, I thought, if perhaps expressed a little testily — and then had the misfortune of being unwelcomed by the prime representatives of VI Suburbia, that well-behaved bourgeois nook of this forum where good-mannered people always talk nice to another (how they talk is much more important to them than what is being said — as this thread once again illustrates), where it is written that we're one big friendly family and where everything that deviates from the sacred Code of spotless conduct is immediately condemned as totally intolerable.

Intruders that don’t readily conform to the Code are labelled “dicks”, attempts are made to drive them off the premises and everyone applauds. Oh, very fine, friendly family people, yes.

Give Art another chance, is what I say.
The worst that can happen is that you're proven right, and then that'll be the end of it anyway.

_


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## ArtAt

river angler said:


> ...but please! next time you decide to open a thread on this forum or any other for that matter at least have the decency to respect you are getting information offered from hobbyists and pros alike who are all willing to share their thoughts, views and advise to help *you*.


Respect goes both ways. When I answer questions on forums I try to show that respect by reading the question and answering it as it was asked. If the questioner stipulated a specific requirement I would respect his requirement and answer accordingly. If I didn't do that it might take up his time unnecessarily following my answer. That has nothing to do with professional or hobbyist.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Duncan Krummel said:


> @Nick Batzdorf, don’t want to completely overtake the conversation with my own opinions, but I always find piano library discussions particularly interesting given the wide range of preferences.
> 
> EW Pianos I find the opposite of round, instead being overly strident and harsh at all dynamics. Keyscape is a beautiful collection, but I find the releases to be unnatural and the overall sound to be detached from the instrument when playing. It’s a hard thing to describe, a feeling more than anything.
> 
> Pianoteq was a near miss for me until I created my own morph between libraries and adjusted the parameters. This can of course be written up as just ‘what one has to do with it,’ but I’d be more impressed if the basic patches were more realistic. The potential is clearly there already, but I feel they’ve missed the mark out of the box. That said, now I love it.
> 
> I’m a broken record, but I will continue to stand by VI Labs’ line of pianos. Each one is brilliantly done, playable, responsive, flexible, and tonally complete. My 2¢.




And I just played both the QL Bose and the Keyscape LA Custom C7 (the first grand).

I'm trying to hear what you hear on both, and just can't! Sorry! Now, I'm only a real keyboard-as-tool player, not a real one, so you're going to feel subtleties I don't. But still.

The Keyscape release noise is a little bit high by default, but other than that... again, I just don't hear what you're hearing.


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## Nick Batzdorf

PUTTING ON MY MODERATOR HAT: PLEASE STOP CALLING EACH OTHER NAMES.

If you're not getting the answers you're looking for, then just move on!

Boxing Day is not fighting day, it's the day the servants take a box lunch because they get a day off after serving the lord of the manor and his family on Christmas.


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## applegrovebard

re-peat said:


> ArtAt is not a dick. At least, he hasn’t given any indication of being one. A touch uncourteous maybe, but not a dick. He got a bit frustrated by getting answers he SPECIFICALLY said he wasn’t interested in — a totally understandable reaction, I thought, if perhaps expressed a little testily — and then had the misfortune of being unwelcomed by the prime representatives of VI Suburbia, that well-behaved bourgeois nook of this forum where good-mannered people always talk nice to another (how they talk is much more important to them than what is being said — as this thread once again illustrates), where it is written that we're one big friendly family and where everything that deviates from the sacred Code of spotless conduct is immediately condemned as totally intolerable.
> 
> Intruders that don’t readily conform to the Code are labelled “dicks”, attempts are made to drive them off the premises and everyone applauds. Oh, very fine, friendly family people, yes.
> 
> Give Art another chance, is what I say.
> The worst that can happen is that you're proven right, and then that'll be the end of it anyway.
> 
> _


I had a similar reaction to you, re-peat. I often see threads where someone is quite clear what they aren't looking for and there are numerous posts that disregard this eg I'm looking for a free plugin and there are a string of replies for expensive plugins. Probably can get a bit annoying... All in all, a curious thread in this season of peace and good will...


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## Duncan Krummel

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The Quantum Leap Pianos are strident and harsh? That doesn't compute, especially the Bosendorfer (which is the one I use mostly).
> 
> What speakers do you have? I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's a serious question!


Not a jerk at all! I’ll have to crack open the Bösendorfer later today and play around with it. The Steinway was my go-to for many a project, before I found the Ravenscroft 275. That was a ‘lifted veil’ moment for me. Keyscape’s releases are actually just too short and subdued imo! Still, the pianos have very beautiful tone, for the most part. I’ve certainly used Keyscape plenty, and would not want to part with it, but it’s not a library that gives me the impression of sitting at a real instrument.

Oh, and to answer your questions regarding speakers; I’m using a Sonarworks-corrected pair of Adam A3X’s with a Klipsch SW-12 sub I picked up at a thrift store. But, this is not the exact room nor setup I used way back when I was regularly using the EW Pianos collection. I have a set of HD 598s and Slate’s VSX that also get regularly used. I’ll try between all three of these to see if I can better articulate my thoughts here.

Certainly this isn’t a setup anyone would consider hi-end, but that’s never been an option for me.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

ArtAt said:


> How much control does CinePiano offer on the volume envelope - especially the Release?


It's decent enough! I mainly use the 'bias forte' or 'bias piano' settings when needed without tweaking too much.


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## KEM

As far as I’m aware there’s only one piano worth having and that’s the Malmsjö



Art Vista's Malmsjo GVI Piano Plugin


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## Rudianos

ArtAt said:


> I have Cubase 11 Pro and I'm looking for a good, hopefully not too expensive piano VST. I write video
> Thanks in advance for suggestions!



I would recommend VSL - Vienna Imperial. https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Keyboards_Complete/Vienna_Imperial

It is pricey but sales 3 times a year take it down 33%. Its a clean, dry piano with an extreme amount of control over the sound. You can EQ each and every note in the native player. It is a self contained player. It has extreme velocity layers and you can get a huge array of tone by adjusting in app.

My thread below is probably the best window into the tone and UI of each piano. You can look for the rare ADSR, and hear them in action. I think 100+ pianos are now listed.






Ultimate Piano Comparison Thread


Creating a new diversion for myself here and hoping it provides some value to the community. The aim is to create a comprehensive piano comparison using high quality MIDI. Too often demos, don't offer such consistency. It can be hard to tell what to buy. Hopefully people will join up and get...




vi-control.net







If you need ADSR control all of the Soundiron pianos have it. They are great programmers. Def a rounder softer jazz classical piano. Start here...









Emotional Piano


Emotional Piano is a virtual grand piano with rich tone and soaring resonance, perfect for soulful songwriting, expressive film soundtracks & underscoring. It offers an intuitive GUI with an adaptable LFO system, customizable arpeggiator, a modular FX rack with 18 DSP effect, and 20 inspiring...




soundiron.com


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