# Garritan CFX vs. Noire. Does anyone have both?



## CT (May 2, 2019)

I always thought I was a Steinway guy, and *not* a Yamaha guy, yet here I am suddenly realizing that these two CFX's have "the sound" I've been after, and haven't been able to find, from Steinway or otherwise.

I'm basically torn between them. The Garritan has incredible tone, and at least some of that is due to the multiple perspectives. Going by what people say, pretty much everything else about this one is perfect, too.

Noire's Felt variant is a selling point for me (two pianos are better than one), and the Particles thing is interesting, although I'm not sure how much I'd ultimately use it. I love the tone as heard in everything I can find, but I wonder if I would find it restrictive at times, since it's a single mix.

It comes down to two things, then: how well does Noire respond to reverb/simulating more depth, and most importantly, how do the two compare from a playability standpoint?


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## newman (May 2, 2019)

For playability and enjoyment (vs. music production) you might check this recent thread at PianoWorld:

forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2840647/1.html

Several users there have both The Garritan and Noire, including:
- Smaug
- slobajudge
- minstrelman
- nicknameTaken
- RobR

The Yamaha CFX probably was designed with some influence from Steinway.

I have only the Garritan CFX and it plays nicely; the pedaling is good. The samples are wet and a bit noisy (search my recent posts here for noise measurement links). Took me a bit of computer tweaking to get acceptable latency. I only like the "Full Default" mic perspective. I don't do any recording or music production.

I don't know much about Noire, but you should do some research on the pedaling.

(EDIT - added user names)


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## CT (May 2, 2019)

Thanks for that link. It's surprising, and disappointing, to see a few posts stating that Noire doesn't have true pedal-down samples. Could that really be accurate?


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## chopin4525 (May 2, 2019)

miket said:


> Thanks for that link. It's surprising, and disappointing, to see a few posts stating that Noire doesn't have true pedal-down samples. Could that really be accurate?


If it's the usual approach by galaxy instuments in building their pianos you don't need them. They layer the normal sampled note and an additional resonance sample at different dynamics per note for a richer and more controlled sound.


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## CT (May 2, 2019)

I see. 

If anyone has Noire, and feels like posting some examples (preferably classical), I'd be very grateful. I know it's new, and that's why there isn't a ton of user content out there yet. The Garritan is very well represented.


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## CGR (May 2, 2019)

Have you seen these Mike?:


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## CGR (May 2, 2019)

newman said:


> The Yamaha CFX probably was designed with some influence from Steinway.
> .



I think the CFX has been more influenced by Bosendorfer, after Yamaha bought the company.


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## scoringdreams (May 2, 2019)

I have both. Let me get some samples up...Noire sounds darker (if we don't play around with the timbre knob) and is closer to a Steinway D than the Garritan counterpart.

IMO, I think the Garritan CFX is more dynamic and musical in a sense.


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## Adam Takacs (May 3, 2019)

This is a very good walkthrough about Noire.



I have Garritan CFX and I love it, but at the low dynamics it is noisy indeed. 

I didn't want to buy more piano libraries, but NOIRE is too beautiful and special.


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## CT (May 3, 2019)

Thanks for the input, everyone. I wish I could say it's made the choice easier.


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## Pantonal (May 3, 2019)

miket said:


> Thanks for the input, everyone. I wish I could say it's made the choice easier.


That never happens here! 

Good luck in your decision making. I have the Garritan CFX and a few other pianos (Ravenscroft 275 and the UVI bundle of Steinway D, Bechstein and Fazioli). Of those I use the Garritan CFX by far the most and the Ravenscroft second.


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## Lee Blaske (May 3, 2019)

I don't have the Garritan CFX, but I have Noire, and the VSL CFX, and a real 9' Yamaha CFIII (precursor to the CFX). I really like Noire. It has a nice, warm sound (much warmer than the VSL CFX, and my real CFIII). Also, the felt samples are great (very cool that someone was able to achieve that effect with a grand). I think Noire is much more of a hybrid, special-purpose instrument, for taking a piano way beyond what a real piano can do. If your purpose is mainly to find a totally realistic, no special efx added piano, there's an awful lot in Noire that is just not going to be very useful for you.

BTW, if you're looking for a very playable, versatile grand instrument, I personally think that SonicCouture's Hammersmith really needs to be in the running.


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## CT (May 3, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> BTW, if you're looking for a very playable, versatile grand instrument, I personally think that SonicCouture's Hammersmith really needs to be in the running.



That's the one I've had for years, actually! Really amazing, but I've started to look for something else, tonally.


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## keepitsimple (May 3, 2019)

I have Garritan CFX, VSL CFX and NOIRE. The best for recording for me are NOIRE and VSL CFX.

- Garritan CFX: Great for playing/practicing, but a pain when recording due to the pedal-down noises in the samples, especially if you finalize it with a limiter in order to give it presence in a solo context. Dynamic range is superb and has the best growling bass of all 3.

- VSL CFX: Bright and vivid with an almost percussive character. You need to tweak the velocity sensitivity in order to tame down that "percussive brightness". Some registers sound weaker than others so you need to spend some time in the edit page to get everything gelling together. If you do your tweaks right, it sounds absolutely stunning in a solo recording.

- NOIRE: The most balanced (timbre wise) of all 3 and hands down the most versatile. Sounds very convincing in a recording. It retains a warm aura around it but you can still hear the strings pop when you push it. You can make it sound almost as pensive as the VSL CFX or as deep as something like Keyscape's C7. The reverbs included are absolutely stunning, ranging from rooms/halls to experimental spaces (like Piano resonance fx etc...).


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## CT (May 3, 2019)

keepitsimple said:


> I have Garritan CFX, VSL CFX and NOIRE. The best for recording for me are NOIRE and VSL CFX.
> 
> - Garritan CFX: Great for playing/practicing, but a pain when recording due to the pedal-down noises in the samples, especially if you finalize it with a limiter in order to give it presence in a solo context. Dynamic range is superb and has the best growling bass of all 3.
> 
> ...



Your videos have been very helpful, not only about these few pianos!

VSL isn't a consideration for me, for a few reasons, but I appreciate your other thoughts here. This *isn't* just for playing/practice. I'll be using it in recordings, so the noise issues are something to bear in mind, although the first demo that really caught my ear and impressed me (a Bach chorale) is also the only one I've noticed the noises on to any high degree.


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## keepitsimple (May 3, 2019)

miket said:


> Your videos have been very helpful, not only about these few pianos!
> 
> VSL isn't a consideration for me, for a few reasons, but I appreciate your other thoughts here. This *isn't* just for playing/practice. I'll be using it in recordings, so the noise issues are something to bear in mind, although the first demo that really caught my ear and impressed me (a Bach chorale) is also the only one I've noticed the noises on to any high degree.


Thank you I think you'll be happy with NOIRE. The amount of customization you can do is insane. They went all out with this one. They're also planning to release an update with more snapshots.


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## CT (May 3, 2019)

All right, all right... leaning towards Noire at this point. I'll need one more round of listening to convince myself, but then I have to round up the cash/see if anyone buys my Hammersmith license, so I'll have time to change my mind another fifty times....


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## gdugan (Jun 5, 2019)

I have both Garritan CFX and Noire. For recording/mixing, I like Noire much more than Garritan, which I found hard to get to sit correctly in a mix. I just recently replaced the Garritan CFX piano with the Noire in a piece I recorded, and am very pleased with the result. The piano is much better defined and I didn't have to deal with the excessive room sound of the Garritan.

Here's a link to the piece:


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## CT (Jun 5, 2019)

Thanks for that. It sounds great! I'm even more certain now that Noire is the way to go. The sound of Abbey Road behind the Garritan is very pleasant to me, but I think I'd ultimately rather have this tighter sound for most uses.


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## CGR (Jun 5, 2019)

Good to hear another piece with Noire. I keep telling myself I don't need another sampled piano and then hear tracks like this. One thing I notice in many pieces produced with sampled pianos (including some of my own) is that they often sound a little harsh/heavy handed. Maybe because the keyboard/software defaults to a velocity setting which triggers the mf, f & ff samples too easily, which can result in a harsh sound. I hear it a bit in the above track. You really need to dig into the keyboard of a good acoustic grand to get those levels, so my suggestion is to keep the keyboard/software velocity response in check, and also monitor at a substantial volume level when recording the piano parts in order to get a realistic idea of dynamics and the subtleties of the m, mp, p & pp range.


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## gdugan (Jun 6, 2019)

CGR said:


> Good to hear another piece with Noire. I keep telling myself I don't need another sampled piano and then hear tracks like this. One thing I notice in many pieces produced with sampled pianos (including some of my own) is that they often sound a little harsh/heavy handed. Maybe because the keyboard/software defaults to a velocity setting which triggers the mf, f & ff samples too easily, which can result in a harsh sound. I hear it a bit in the above track. You really need to dig into the keyboard of a good acoustic grand to get those levels, so my suggestion is to keep the keyboard/software velocity response in check, and also monitor at a substantial volume level when recording the piano parts in order to get a realistic idea of dynamics and the subtleties of the m, mp, p & pp range.



I agree, some of the velocities in this track could be tweaked to give a more natural result. The thing is, I just replaced the existing Garritan CFX with Noire, and re-rendered the track (I think I actually did massage the velocities on a few notes) and came out with a pretty decent result. I'm sure I'll ultimately go back and re-perform the piano so I adjust my playing for the instrument in real time.

Thanks for listening and for the nice comments!

-Gary


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## gdugan (Jun 6, 2019)

CGR said:


> … and also monitor at a substantial volume level when recording the piano parts in order to get a realistic idea of dynamics and the subtleties of the m, mp, p & pp range.



This is an excellent point. Monitor level makes an enormous difference in the performance.

Totally tangential:
One thing I've noticed on many sampled pianos is the middle octave or so around middle C is very hard to get sounding right. On a lot of libraries, there's this "hole" in the middle octave (say from the G below middle C to C an octave above) - some sort of phase issue maybe - that is really aggravating and spoils the illusion for me. The high and low end on most libraries are fine, but it's that middle octave that makes or breaks the effect. Noire seems to not suffer from this. The stage pianos I've played don't seem to have this middle octave problem either.

Also, I *never* seem to be able to get the same sound from sampled libraries that I hear in the youtube demos. I have a bunch of piano libraries that I bought because I thought the demos sounded wonderful that I never use because they just sound disappointing when I play them.

Maybe it's my playing...


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## CT (Jun 6, 2019)

I've also noticed that issue in the mid-range of sampled pianos. The outer ends of the keyboard sound nice and have good separation, but that middle is often very smeared together and one dimensional. Even from demos, I can tell Noire avoided that.


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## CGR (Jun 6, 2019)

gdugan said:


> Also, I *never* seem to be able to get the same sound from sampled libraries that I hear in the youtube demos. I have a bunch of piano libraries that I bought because I thought the demos sounded wonderful that I never use because they just sound disappointing when I play them.
> 
> Maybe it's my playing...



Don't underestimate the 'polishing' which is often applied to these demos. EQ, saturation, compression & mastering can have a substantial impact on the fullness and clarity of the piano tone - sampled and acoustic.


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## ionian (Jun 7, 2019)

The thing is, to me, even Noire still gets "plinky" in the highs and a bit flat. Garritan CFX is the only sampled piano I've heard that gets the highs right and there's a certain dimensionality in there as well that I haven't heard in any other sampled pianos. I agree that it's a pain to fight the room sound of CFX, but for me it's a tradeoff for the dimensionality that CFX has that I haven't heard in any others, including Noire. 

There's more leeway when doing a track that has a lot of stuff in it because the piano doesn't need dimension, but for solo piano, I still haven't found anything to beat CFX, in my opinion.


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## CGR (Jun 7, 2019)

ionian said:


> The thing is, to me, even Noire still gets "plinky" in the highs and a bit flat. Garritan CFX is the only sampled piano I've heard that gets the highs right and there's a certain dimensionality in there as well that I haven't heard in any other sampled pianos. I agree that it's a pain to fight the room sound of CFX, but for me it's a tradeoff for the dimensionality that CFX has that I haven't heard in any others, including Noire.
> 
> There's more leeway when doing a track that has a lot of stuff in it because the piano doesn't need dimension, but for solo piano, I still haven't found anything to beat CFX, in my opinion.



Good point about the Garritan CFX top end. There's a real air, presence and 3D image in it which a close/mid mic'd piano with reverb applied just can't achieve. The treble notes rise up and mingle in the Abbey Road space so naturally with the Garritan CFX, unlike the 2 dimensional 'all treble-notes-to-the-right' result you get with many other sampled pianos.


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## gdugan (Jun 7, 2019)

ionian said:


> The thing is, to me, even Noire still gets "plinky" in the highs and a bit flat. Garritan CFX is the only sampled piano I've heard that gets the highs right and there's a certain dimensionality in there as well that I haven't heard in any other sampled pianos. I agree that it's a pain to fight the room sound of CFX, but for me it's a tradeoff for the dimensionality that CFX has that I haven't heard in any others, including Noire.
> 
> There's more leeway when doing a track that has a lot of stuff in it because the piano doesn't need dimension, but for solo piano, I still haven't found anything to beat CFX, in my opinion.



What are your suggested/favorite settings for Garritan CFX for solo piano?


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## newman (Jun 7, 2019)

ionian said:


> I agree that it's a pain to fight the room sound of CFX, but for me it's a tradeoff for the dimensionality that CFX has that I haven't heard in any others...





gdugan said:


> What are your suggested/favorite settings for Garritan CFX for solo piano?


I run full>classic. Then turn down the gain on the ambient mics. There is something wonky with the limit on the master gain so turn off the limit light. I increase dynamic range dial to about 70-80%. Search for the CyberGene pedaling script.

I like this a lot and have spent years playing with other mics and adjustments, none of which I like.​


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## CGR (Jun 7, 2019)

newman said:


> I run full>classic. Then turn down the gain on the ambient mics. There is something wonky with the limit on the master gain so turn off the limit light. I increase dynamic range dial to about 70-80%. Search for the CyberGene pedaling script.
> 
> I like this a lot and have spent years playing with other mics and adjustments, none of which I like.[/COLOR]​


Exact setup I use, including the edited pedalling script provided by CyberGene.


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## newman (Jun 7, 2019)

CGR said:


> Exact setup I use, including the edited pedalling script provided by CyberGene.


Good show m8! This is a popular setup for classical pianists at PianoWorld forum; a few of the guys are also music producers in the classical realm.


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## gdugan (Jun 10, 2019)

newman said:


> I run full>classic. Then turn down the gain on the ambient mics. There is something wonky with the limit on the master gain so turn off the limit light. I increase dynamic range dial to about 70-80%. Search for the CyberGene pedaling script.
> 
> I like this a lot and have spent years playing with other mics and adjustments, none of which I like.​


Thanks very much! I'll give these settings a try.


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## Halvardlund (Nov 29, 2020)

Love these advices! Have played for 30 years.
I am trying to buy two of these:
(Black Friday-prized)
NI NOIRE
VSL Bösendorfer Grand Upright 130

(Or non Black-Friday priced)
Garriton CFX Lite
Garriton CFX Full.
VSL CFX

My use will be:
Composition of Jazz, Film Score, Soul, Classical etc.

And my focus will be: melodic, how the strings would harmonize like a real piano, and aftersound.

I loved these entries:

Keepitsimple, I liked how you said the Garritan CFX Full could not easily be used for recording. That is what I will do, semipro and pro recording.

Your comment: left me with NOIRE and VSL, though a nother piano by VSL.

I have not thought of Hammersmith Pro, will probably be left out for now.

ionion, you mention dimensionality - you don´t find it in NOIRE, and nothing beats Garritan CFX Full.

CFR, you mention real air, presence and 3D image vs the 2 dimensionality with other libraries.

On this last night before Cyber Sales go: I am weighing on

a) Buying the Full Garriton
b) Buying the Vienna CFX and not the VSL Bösendorfer Grand Upright 130, though I prefer Uprights for melodymaking
c) Buying NI Noire and Garriton CFX Lite
d) Most likely buyin NI Noir and VSL Bösendorfer Grand Upright


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## ohernie (Nov 29, 2020)

Just curious, what are the memory footprints for the two?


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## muziksculp (Nov 29, 2020)

I have both, but *NOIRE* wins for me. It's a fantastic Piano, both sound, and playability. 

Actually I deleted Garritan's CFX Piano Sample content from my PC, since I wasn't using it, and it was just occupying valuable SSD Space. 

Hope this helps you decide.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 29, 2020)

Halvardlund said:


> And my focus will be: melodic, how the strings would harmonize like a real piano, and aftersound.



I don't own the Garritan CFX, but the VSL Bösendorfer Upright has a tremendously rich and detailed intimate sound with a ton of resonance. I think from what you say that you would like it.


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## Halvardlund (Nov 29, 2020)

All: I asked Yamaha directly on samples, and they gave an unprioritized list:









CFX Concert Grand virtual piano - Garritan


Own the revolutionary Yamaha CFX Concert Grand virtual piano, created by Garritan and Abbey Road Studios. Upgrade your virtual piano sound today.




www.garritan.com












Spectrasonics - Keyscape - Collector Keyboards







www.spectrasonics.net









YAMAHA CFX - Vienna Symphonic Library


The Yamaha CFX is a beautiful hand-crafted, full size 275 cm (9’) concert grand that represents the pinnacle of the manufacturer's tradition of piano crafting. The virtual representation of this instrument incorporates our team's unbridled passion for the most natural sound paired with the best...




www.vsl.co.at





ohernie:
NI NOIRE - 4 GB RAM (6 GB recommended for large KONTAKT Instruments (Kontakt 6))
VSL Bösendorfer Grand Upright 130 - specs at 16 RAM, recommends at i7 and I have only i5.
Garritan CFX Lite - needs 4 GB RAM, which I have.
Garritan CFX Full - needs 4 GB RAM, which I have.
VSL Vienna CFX needs 16 RAM.

muziksculp:
1ST PRIORITY - I have decided for NOIRE as first priority and only buy for now.
2ND PRIORITY - Both Vienna VSL is out of spec range - and also price range. And I bet on a later offer in 2021 or 2022.
3RD PRIORITY - I am waiting for Garritan until later, since there is no sale, Garriton is on hold, timewise.
4RD PRIORITY: Pianoteq was good, I tried a trial, but my QL Pianos overlap these.
5TH PRIORITY: Hammersmith is still unknown quality for me, and does not seem to be on sale.

SupremeFist:
Thanks. Yeah. It is your comparison against Keepitsimple comparison.

Final insecurity:
I guess, I have to go to bed, here in Europe. And leave the final call until the last day. And I could steal 16 gb RAM from my seldomly used iMac.

And I am pressing in another buy for 90 dollar, which I could move to the final battle:

Between
e) NI NOIRE or
f) VSL Bösendorfer
or
g) both.


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## Halvardlund (Nov 29, 2020)

There is a final option,
1. I can buy Vienna and decide for any refund during the next hours.
2. And when have decided to keep or reject Vienna Bösendorfer Upright,
3. than I have either just NOIRE left - or both. AND NI does not give refunds.

PS! This would have worked, did it not take 7 days to deliver VIENNA key, which - together with not really needing an upright piano now - and I am not sure if I need this type of upright, I want a less GRANDPIANO-sounding upright, something more volum-tight, I am probably down to.

JUST NOIRE, on sale until Dec 7th. 
Good night everyone.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Nov 29, 2020)

Halvardlund said:


> There is a final option,
> 1. I can buy Vienna and decide for any refund during the next hours.
> 2. And when have decided to keep or reject Vienna Bösendorfer Upright,
> 3. than I have either just NOIRE left - or both. AND NI does not give refunds.
> ...



One option not really mentioned in your lists is to do the 3+1 voucher and combine the Bosendorfer upright with the VSL CFX. That would be my combo from the various possibilities!

Alternatively, the VI Labs Modern U (upright) is currently on sale for $110 and it's excellent. That plus the Noire at $75 from NI is about the best bang for the buck I can imagine for a great pair of grand+upright pianos. 

For me, the VI upright is more 'instant gratification' right out of the box, but the more I play the VSL upright, the more I find to like about it.


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## jazzman7 (Nov 29, 2020)

I decided on NOIR over CFX partly because the room sound of the CFX doesn't work in all situations for me. The NOIR is much more flexible. Ultimately, while they are so close to each other in sound, the NOIR just sounded better to my ear. However, The NOIR D3 sample (All velocities) is a bit "tubby" sounding to me. Muffled and off in phase. The C to a lesser extent. The only other complaint was I bought it just before it went on sale for half off! Beautiful sound


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## Thundercat (Nov 29, 2020)

gdugan said:


> I agree, some of the velocities in this track could be tweaked to give a more natural result. The thing is, I just replaced the existing Garritan CFX with Noire, and re-rendered the track (I think I actually did massage the velocities on a few notes) and came out with a pretty decent result. I'm sure I'll ultimately go back and re-perform the piano so I adjust my playing for the instrument in real time.
> 
> Thanks for listening and for the nice comments!
> 
> -Gary


It's really lovely. Thanks for sharing xo


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## Halvardlund (Nov 29, 2020)

*cfodeebiedaddy, thanks for the mentioning of these alternatives, I am looking into it here now in the morning hours. The best grand and the best upright pack.

a) The NI Noire + The VI Labs Modern U seems to be a great package and I am evaluating it, especially the "romantic preset" of the sampled Yamaha U3 Upright, which is more the non-grand upright sound I am looking for (auto from 16:42)



b) *VSL Bösendorfer Grand Upright $125 + VSL Vienna CFX $255
*The 4 Vouchers, pay for 3+1 from Vienna makes up a great offer, and I am evaluating this too. Being unsure if the Bösendorfer intimate would give me the same delicate sound in the romantic preset in Modern U. The intimate preset (auto from 2:01)


Having inputs from all of you professionals; makes me almost feel like a music student; and I am doing this comparison from the best of advice and the broadest of comparisons.*


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Nov 30, 2020)

So far, the sound I like best from the Bosendorfer upright is just with the main mic! That's pretty 'delicate'! Something to be aware of with the VSLs is that the presets (at least for the instruments I own) kinda suck - they're all chock-full of ambience. From my playings with it so far, I think the Bosie would get you in the ballpark of the clip you linked to from Simeon's demo, though it might not be so full-sounding right out of the box. VILabs really did an amazing job with their upright - honestly, both theirs and the VSL upright are so good I can't imagine being disappointed with either. They're different flavours, but they're both delicious!


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## keepitsimple (Nov 30, 2020)

Not to stir the pot again on this older thread and not to take anything away from the Garritan CFX or any other library....but I just finished playing/revisiting NOIRE again after not playing it for a long time and it’s absolutely badass.

Responsive: Check.
Rich overtones/release samples (big factor in achieving realism!): BIG check. 
Versatility: Can turn into Keyscape one day then into VSL CFX the next day.

Ok I’m done. Bye.


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## Halvardlund (Nov 30, 2020)

And my search is over. I chose "NI Noire".
And for my upright search I actually chose "*VI Labs Modern U*", that @cfodeebiedaddy recommended.

Thanks to all. I hope this thread can be an help for more people also.


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