# 2012 5.1 Mac Pro 12 core vs 6 core or New Mac pro ?



## DanPhaseMusic (Oct 4, 2016)

Hi There

I'm finally upgrading my Hackintosh as i'm stuck on 10.8.5 and need to move up to upgrade Kontakt etc. I'm looking around at prices and I can see quite a few of the old 12 core mac pro on ebay at around £1500. The 6 core version with the same 3ghz processor is quite a bit cheaper. I can also see some older vader helmet pro's but at about £1750 and they don't look as well speced. I'm just running logic x with a ton of plugs/kontakt/audio and i'm looking for the best possible realtime playback power. What do you think the best option is and what haven't I thought of ?

Cheers

Dan


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## jacobthestupendous (Oct 11, 2016)

I'm looking into picking up a 6-core Vader helmet in the somewhat near future. I'm curious to see what, if anything, gets announced by Apple in the next month or so.


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## mac (Oct 11, 2016)

They don't look massively more impressive on paper (the vaders), but they perform much better than the old mac pros according to some real world tests I've seen. Disclaimer: I own neither!


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## synthpunk (Oct 11, 2016)

We have discussed this recently...

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/new-mac-pro-coming-soon-or.55169/

The negatives for me on the old towers are... high power consumption, fan noise, no thunderbolt options, and some towers now will not work with firmware 5,1 that allows Sierra and newer o.s. to be used, but they are good solid twilight machines with good connectivity and upgrade options.

I use a 6 core vader helmet and have not looked back. New Imacs offer best bang for the buck IMHO, new MBP's due this month but will have very little in external connectivity I have heard.

Christian @ SF has some good things to say about his single vader helmet (8 core dustbin) MP here.


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## jacobthestupendous (Oct 11, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> We have discussed this recently...
> 
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/new-mac-pro-coming-soon-or.55169/


For a long time, I was on the fence between iMac 5K and Mac Pro, and it was people on that thread having recently had critical parts of their iMacs fail that pushed me over the edge in favor of the Mac Pro.


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## samphony (Oct 11, 2016)

I did the upgrade from a 2009 Mac Pro eight core to a 2013 Vader Pro in 2014 and would never go back.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 11, 2016)

I upgraded from a silver Mac Pro 5.1 (12-core 2.93gHz) to the new cylinder Mac Pro 6.1 (12-core 2.7gHz) and it's a LOT faster for Logic, somehow. While normal operations like messing around in the Finder don't feel all that much faster, here's a couple of images that might be informative.

A buddy who has the same silver 12-core as I had (with SSD boot and audio drives) wanted to see if my cylinder was really any faster than the old faithful silver towers, so he made a test sequence for Logic X and sent it to me. The sequence is just a CPU stress test with a couple of dozen instances of Alchemy and Space Designer, and it loads his machine up almost to the top. I booted it up on my cylinder, with the same audio preferences and buffer size - the only difference was that his machine runs the Avid CoreAudio driver for his HDX card, and mine was running the MOTU driver for the 112d AVB interface. The CPU meters are shown below, with the cylinder on the left and the silver tower on the right:


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## Daniel James (Oct 11, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I'm looking into picking up a 6-core Vader helmet in the somewhat near future. I'm curious to see what, if anything, gets announced by Apple in the next month or so.



No matter what they announce it will be silly prices for a few years. I was thinknig the same then realised I could get a Trashcanmac that had suped up specs for a relativly decent price now and it would last me a few years (until anything new they announce becomes reasonably priced)

I had the 12core 64gig Ram 5,1 and I upgraded to a 12 core 64gig Ram Trashcanmac....Its quieter, its cooler and it feels much faster when working. I don't regret the purchase one bit. Wont be going back to the 5,1's ever again.

-DJ


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## DanPhaseMusic (Oct 12, 2016)

Well that's all very useful information. What's the best route for storage ? I need about 5tb of space so obviously some kind of external solution. SSDs via thinderbolt ?

Thanks

Dan


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## samphony (Oct 12, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> No matter what they announce it will be silly prices for a few years. I was thinknig the same then realised I could get a Trashcanmac that had suped up specs for a relativly decent price now and it would last me a few years (until anything new they announce becomes reasonably priced)
> 
> I had the 12core 64gig Ram 5,1 and I upgraded to a 12 core 64gig Ram Trashcanmac....Its quieter, its cooler and it feels much faster when working. I don't regret the purchase one bit. Wont be going back to the 5,1's ever again.
> 
> -DJ



And it's a lot more portable too. I know it sounds weird but it traveled with it a few times for recent gigs.


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## FriFlo (Oct 12, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> ... then realised I could get a Trashcanmac that had suped up specs for a relativly decent price now and it would last me a few years (until anything new they announce becomes reasonably priced).


Where have you seen any reasonable prices on a new trash can? Here, they sell new for the same price as 2013, which is ridiculous considering how much the hardware is behind now! And those prices for new ones also influence the used prices, as always with f&€#%ng Apple! However you do it: you pay way to much for the Mac pros, which is really a shame for a so called pro workstation. And then, I will have to invest even more in thunderbold hardware. I will try to resist that as long as possible. The only thing that convinces me about the newer models is the energy consumption.


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## synthpunk (Oct 12, 2016)

BlackMagic SSD Multidock. Thunderbolt, plug & play, no fans, rock solid, I use two.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmultidock



DanPhaseMusic said:


> Well that's all very useful information. What's the best route for storage ? I need about 5tb of space so obviously some kind of external solution. SSDs via thinderbolt ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dan


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## jacobthestupendous (Oct 12, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> I upgraded from a silver Mac Pro 5.1 (12-core 2.93gHz) to the new cylinder Mac Pro 6.1 (12-core 2.7gHz) and it's a LOT faster for Logic, somehow. While normal operations like messing around in the Finder don't feel all that much faster, here's a couple of images that might be informative.
> 
> A buddy who has the same silver 12-core as I had (with SSD boot and audio drives) wanted to see if my cylinder was really any faster than the old faithful silver towers, so he made a test sequence for Logic X and sent it to me. The sequence is just a CPU stress test with a couple of dozen instances of Alchemy and Space Designer, and it loads his machine up almost to the top. I booted it up on my cylinder, with the same audio preferences and buffer size - the only difference was that his machine runs the Avid CoreAudio driver for his HDX card, and mine was running the MOTU driver for the 112d AVB interface. The CPU meters are shown below, with the cylinder on the left and the silver tower on the right:


I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but it looks from your picture of this isolated test like the current gen 12-core is about twice as efficient as the previous gen 12-core; does that mean that current gen 6-core would roughly keep up with previous gen 12-core?


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## jacobthestupendous (Oct 12, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> No matter what they announce it will be silly prices for a few years.


How much are prices likely to increase? The current trashcan stock config prices are nice round numbers ($2,999, $3,999, etc.) which would suggest (to someone who hasn't been watching for very long) that these are the pro-level prices set by Apple from the get-go; have they come down over the last couple of years? If prices are about to jump, I need to buy this month instead of in December.


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## synthpunk (Oct 12, 2016)

You can save money ($600 off 6 core) by going with a MP refurb. They come with a year of Apple Care extendable to 3.
http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/mac_pro

If anyone in the u.s. needs a good new MP dealer pm me.


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## 5Lives (Oct 12, 2016)

Is buying a 3 year old machine to use for another say 3-4 years a good move at that price?


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## synthpunk (Oct 12, 2016)

That is something the end user must decide, but waiting for vaporware is not my thing unless you want to dabble in the pc world instead.

The processor, video cards, and now internal SSD are up-gradable on the MP so I would think that would allow it a longer lifespan.



5Lives said:


> Is buying a 3 year old machine to use for another say 3-4 years a good move at that price?


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but it looks from your picture of this isolated test like the current gen 12-core is about twice as efficient as the previous gen 12-core; does that mean that current gen 6-core would roughly keep up with previous gen 12-core?



One thing to keep in mind is that the current 6-core has a MUCH faster clock speed than the current 12-core (3.5gHz versus 2.7gHz), so I'm sure this helps in many circumstances like the following:

I've seen a trend from some developers of Kontakt libraries lately - some instruments with ridiculously complex user interfaces and the "one instrument" approach (where a single .NKI file is provided and various combinations of the sample content are deployed from within that interface) can tax the "last core" in Logic all the way to the limit on my 12-core cylinder. Late at night, bored and inundated with half-off sales emails, I purchased a library called Dronar Hybrid Guitar Textures. This library has a fairly simple user interface that lets you use five or six knobs to control the mix between a bunch of layered textures, and then go to a second page for detailed tweaking of eight or so individual stereo samples that are all playing at once. I don't know if it's because of poorly-optimized code in the Kontakt scripting engine itself, or overly complex scripts created by the library developer, or what - but playing one note on this thing will load up Logic's last core all the way to the top. 

It's not just the sheer number of voices playing (which IS excessive for something as non-critical as a guitar drone texture), because I've got many of my home-brewed instruments that have no user interface or scripting but can play dozens of voices with much less CPU load - so I'm not exactly sure what's going on under the hood of instruments like that to cause such a heavy load. Maybe they have a separate convolution reverb on every sample group? Who knows, but it's a pig, plain and simple. Other instruments like the Blendstrument series from 8dio behave in a similar manner (though not nearly as extreme as Dronar) - you play one key and five, ten, or more layers all play at once and by manipulating the GUI and MIDI controllers you can manipulate the blend of what you're hearing. Perhaps some of these developers are running on high-spec Windows machines, or i7 - based Macs with high clock speeds, or just not trying to integrate their products into large templates and therefore not noticing how silly it is that something as non-mission-critical as a guitar drone texture would choke a whole core? I will say that I just got the wife a new iMac 5k and it's got an i7 at something like 4gHz and it just screams through Photoshop but I haven't tried any music apps on it.

Yes, I know I can just host these hog-worthy Kontakt instruments in VEPro and get around Logic's hated "last core" performance issues, but still... THIS is an example of a situation where having fewer cores that run at a higher clock speed might actually be preferable to having a dozen slower cores.

It does seem like the most popular configuration for music guys is the 6-core cylinder - I buy my Macs at a pro audio shop (Westlake Pro) and my guy reports that he sells more 6-cores than any other configuration by a huge margin.

I was surprised to see the results of the comparison that I posted - I did NOT expect that the cylinder would show such an extreme difference to the silver 12-core, since the cylinder does not "feel" all that much faster than the older machine. There may be other factors at work also - the difference between Avid's CoreAudio driver for the HDX card and MOTU's AVB drivers, etc. But I did not buy the cylinder because I was topping out the CPU on my old silver 12-core - what drove me to upgrade was the need to use a 4k monitor (essential for me to move from Logic v9 to Logic X with its "chubby" user interface), the desire for more expandability for drives, audio interfaces, etc.

It's funny - when the cylinder first came out, people complained that the old silver towers were "more expandable" but in my case the opposite is true - my silver tower was maxed-out. Every drive bay was full, every PCI slot was full - I had to remove my UAD card so that I could put two more SSDs on a PCI card, and the only way to expand any further was to use FireWire (no thank you) or some janky eSATA setup (that's already going the way of FireWire), etc. People said that with the cylinder they'd have "too many cables hanging off the computer" but the back of my racks looked like a telco installation anyway, with a wide variety of outdated technology like FireWire cables, DVI-D cables, etc. 

The old silver rig was housed in a refrigerator-sized soundproof rack that had to be mounted in a closet, so I needed three thirty-foot $300 Gefen DVI-D cables, each as thick as a garden hose, to connect my displays - the new rig is so small and quiet that it just sits behind my displays and the monitor cable cost $15. 

The old rig used an Apple X-Raid that was nearly thirty inches deep, was as loud as a V8 engine (and weighed about the same), held 5.6 tb in two rack spaces, and needed a PCI slot to connect via Fibre Channel. The new rig uses a pair of BlackMagic MultiDock v2 units loaded with 2tb Samsung SSDs, so I get 16tb of SSD storage in the same two rack spaces, only it's about six inches deep, completely silent, has no moving parts (not even a fan or power switch) and is FAST.

So... yeah. BlackMagic MultiDock with SSDs. Yeah. And six-core cylinder is probably the sweet spot in the price / performance curve. Certainly not "as powerful as" the 12-core but still a gnarly machine.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2016)

If anybody's interested, I could upload the test session I used in my CPU comparison. It requires Logic X but nothing else since it just uses Alchemy and Space Designer to stress the CPU, and provides no insight into the relative speed of various disc drive setups - but it might be interesting to see how it fares on a 6-core cylinder or an i7 iMac.

I'll figure out where to host them and I'll start a new thread for it.


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## Daniel James (Oct 12, 2016)

DanPhaseMusic said:


> Well that's all very useful information. What's the best route for storage ? I need about 5tb of space so obviously some kind of external solution. SSDs via thinderbolt ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dan



https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmultidock

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Oct 12, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> Where have you seen any reasonable prices on a new trash can? Here, they sell new for the same price as 2013, which is ridiculous considering how much the hardware is behind now! And those prices for new ones also influence the used prices, as always with f&€#%ng Apple! However you do it: you pay way to much for the Mac pros, which is really a shame for a so called pro workstation. And then, I will have to invest even more in thunderbold hardware. I will try to resist that as long as possible. The only thing that convinces me about the newer models is the energy consumption.



Got mine here. Works like a dream. And compared the the apple.com price its much more reasonable.

https://ibuildmacs.com/

-DJ


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## synthpunk (Oct 12, 2016)

Agree with Charlie the 6 core is the sweet spot for price point. Been told the 8 core is the sweet spot for performance (especially if you want to run Pro Tools, video, and another DAW like Logic all side by side), but the price jump did not justify it for me. Down the road we can always upgrade the processor to 8, 10, or 12 core. (see youtube)



charlieclouser said:


> So... yeah. BlackMagic MultiDock with SSDs. Yeah. And six-core cylinder is probably the sweet spot in the price / performance curve. Certainly not "as powerful as" the 12-core but still a gnarly machine.


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## stigc56 (Oct 12, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> Got mine here. Works like a dream. And compared the the apple.com price its much more reasonable.
> 
> https://ibuildmacs.com/
> 
> -DJ


Is it used?


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## Daniel James (Oct 12, 2016)

stigc56 said:


> Is it used?



No idea, Don't really mind either if it does the job 

-DJ


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## samphony (Oct 12, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Is buying a 3 year old machine to use for another say 3-4 years a good move at that price?


These machines run flawlessly. At least in my setup. It only matters that a tool works and that you can reach your creative goals.


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## samphony (Oct 12, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> Agree with Charlie the 6 core is the sweet spot for price point. Been told the 8 core is the sweet spot for performance (especially if you want to run Pro Tools, video, and another DAW like Logic all side by side), but the price jump did not justify it for me. Down the road we can always upgrade the processor to 8, 10, or 12 core. (see youtube)


I'll upgrade one 6core Vader to a 12core within the next weeks. Finally.


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## 5Lives (Oct 12, 2016)

Try eBay - really good prices for used ones that are still under Apple Care


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## Creston (Oct 13, 2016)

Interesting stuff, currently deciding between an old big Mac Pro, a 2013 trash can (would have to be low end one) or an iMac 5k i7 top spec. 

I don't run massive templates or do the big bombastic orchestral sound, so thinking a 6 core Mac Pro trash can might do me if I can find a decent on eBay with Apple Care.


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## synthpunk (Oct 13, 2016)

Sounds like the Imac is right up your alley and you get that gorgeous screen.



Creston said:


> Interesting stuff, currently deciding between an old big Mac Pro, a 2013 trash can (would have to be low end one) or an iMac 5k i7 top spec.
> 
> I don't run massive templates or do the big bombastic orchestral sound, so thinking a 6 core Mac Pro trash can might do me if I can find a decent on eBay with Apple Care.


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## synthpunk (Oct 13, 2016)

Let use know how if goes please. I would like some reassurance about applying the heat paste.



samphony said:


> I'll upgrade one 6core Vader to a 12core within the next weeks. Finally.


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## Creston (Oct 13, 2016)

Slightly put off due to the amount of parts inside maybe not being as robust. Girlfriend has had her iMac 3 years and had burn marks on left side of the screen. Feel I'd need a bigger screen however, I guess I would have it to the side for the mixer.

We'll see, just waiting to see if they announce anything new in the next few weeks. My custom built Hackintosh is so noisy I think it's dulling down my hearing in the higher frequencies!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2016)

We bought my wife's iMac about six years ago and the are no burn marks or anything like that. The only thing that went wrong with it was a bad hard drive (a Seagate of course), which we replaced with an SSD.

Worth adding: I bought my Apple 30" Cinema Display ten years ago, and there's nothing wrong with it at all.


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## Creston (Oct 13, 2016)

My girlfriends hard drive failed as well! SSD went in there too.


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## synthpunk (Oct 13, 2016)

You can put two SSD's in a Imac with the OWC data doubler (EDIT: sorry, looks like that ended). But you boot drive alone is fine. Then use Thunderbolt and usb3 for external drives.

I understand what your saying about robust. I have a 6 core vader helmet.

Nick, those are great monitors, but 4k/5k Retina look so much nicer on Logic X, hence my thought.


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## samphony (Oct 14, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> Let use know how if goes please. I would like some reassurance about applying the heat paste.


I will. And while on it we will do a paint job on it as well. 

Glossy White


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## Soundhound (Oct 14, 2016)

I'm seeing some 2013 quad cores for $1300-$1500 or so, and the OWC 8 core upgrade is $1200. So $2500 for a 2013 8 core. Plus ram, about $3k all in. Hmmmmm....


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## morphido (Oct 29, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> For a long time, I was on the fence between iMac 5K and Mac Pro, and it was people on that thread having recently had critical parts of their iMacs fail that pushed me over the edge in favor of the Mac Pro.


Hi friend. 
I was fighting with a very new iMac 5k i7 4GHz 16RAM 512SSD (current one) and the audio tests were inestable with clicks and pops with Kontakt instruments and AUs but it was not satisfied for me. 
Finally I bought a second hand MacPro 2013 6core and the difference is incredible. 

If you are thinking on big projects... this machine is a must.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 29, 2016)

I say that if you want to do big projects, for the money you would spend on that 2013 6 core, you could get an i7iMac AND a PC slave instead and be better served.


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## 5Lives (Oct 29, 2016)

I'm thinking of grabbing a used maxed out 2015 i7, but seems like there are some horror stories?


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## edhamilton (Nov 15, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> I'm seeing some 2013 quad cores for $1300-$1500 or so, and the OWC 8 core upgrade is $1200. So $2500 for a 2013 8 core. Plus ram, about $3k all in. Hmmmmm....



Scroll down the page further - 8 core upgrade from a 4 core is $2300.
I miss this detail every time. 
6 core to a 10 core is $2200. (trading in the old 6 core).

Wonder if waiting for V3 chips makes more sense.


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## gsilbers (Nov 15, 2016)

a little off topic but can I use the same ram I have on my 2009 mac pro on the new vader ones?
2009= 1333MHz DDR3 ECC memory
Vader= 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory


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## Hannesdm (Dec 2, 2016)

So what do you guys recommend?

Mac Pro 6,1 dustbin with 4 (3,7 GHz), 6 (3,5 GHz) or 12 (2,7 GHz) cores? 
I'm looking at refurbished versions at the moment with 64gig.

Working on Logic X here with big templates.
I have a 2008 Mac Pro with 32gig ram + a PC slave, but he's really struggling. Don't think I can wait much longer for an updated Mac Pro.


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## IFM (Dec 2, 2016)

Hannesdm said:


> So what do you guys recommend?
> 
> Mac Pro 6,1 dustbin with 4 (3,7 GHz), 6 (3,5 GHz) or 12 (2,7 GHz) cores?
> I'm looking at refurbished versions at the moment with 64gig.
> ...



Well it really boils down to do you want/need Thunderbolt or not and are you okay with at some point the 5,1 MP being unable to have the latest os? 
I went the way of the 5,1 because I was able to get a 12 core with upgraded CPUs and 64 gigs of ram for a fraction of the cost of the 6,1. I added a USB3 card and have all SSD's.
Yes it is big but I've now been able to run my entire template on it without the need for the slave PC.


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## synthpunk (Dec 2, 2016)

I've been told by a Mac Genius that the Vader helmet 8 core is the best way to go saying that I own a 6 core and it works very well for me IFM has some great points I would also add power consumption is one of them the older Towers use three times as much power as the Vader helmets and that is important to us so if you're conscious of your electric bill keep that in mind Vader helmet is also very quiet



Hannesdm said:


> So what do you guys recommend?
> 
> Mac Pro 6,1 dustbin with 4 (3,7 GHz), 6 (3,5 GHz) or 12 (2,7 GHz) cores?
> I'm looking at refurbished versions at the moment with 64gig.
> ...


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## khollister (Dec 2, 2016)

The 12 core 5.1 MP's are pretty cheap now, but from the benchmarks and anecdotal evidence I've seen, I don't think it is much (any?) faster than a 6.1 6 core. Before I decided to eventually go the Cubase/Windows route, I was looking at used/refurbed 8 core 6.1's as the most tolerable mix of performance/cost.


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## IFM (Dec 2, 2016)

khollister said:


> The 12 core 5.1 MP's are pretty cheap now, but from the benchmarks and anecdotal evidence I've seen, I don't think it is much (any?) faster than a 6.1 6 core. Before I decided to eventually go the Cubase/Windows route, I was looking at used/refurbed 8 core 6.1's as the most tolerable mix of performance/cost.


In LPX I am getting some serious track counts. Cubase is more limited for sure so if you are using CP8.5+ then perhaps the 6,1 MP is better but IMO an upgraded MP 5,1 is still an extremely viable option with LPX.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 2, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> the only difference was that his machine runs the Avid CoreAudio driver for his HDX card, and mine was running the MOTU driver for the 112d AVB interface



Apologies if this has been superseded in this thread, but I'd be interested in seeing what happens with different drivers. In the past, Avid's CA drivers have been a couple of steps behind. They may have caught up now, and the driver shouldn't account for that much difference, but still...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 2, 2016)

My objection to a 5,1 (or flashed 4,1) is more emotional than anything else: the thought of paying $1800 or $1900 for a 5-year-old machine frightens me. Apple is already "obsoleting" (yet another ugly verberization) 2013 models...

I dunno. The 25-year-long tail-chasing days of technology buying are over. Before this decade, you'd buy something, it would lose its value by the time you opened the box, and you'd hope to get a couple of years out of it before buying something else.

So maybe I'm just paranoid.


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## lpuser (Dec 2, 2016)

A real 5.1 can do quite a lot, really. The track and plugin count in Logic is incredible and I do really appreciate the ability to run a combination of 5 drives (HDD and SSD) in my tower. Yes, the SATA interface is not that fast, neither is memory, but for me it was all a matter of how much work I can get done with not having to invest another $1000+ for external peripherals due to a lack of expandibility.
I really wished Apple would come up again with a real workhorse of a workstation, instead of a dramatically stripped down trashcan.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 2, 2016)

Ipuser, I picked up a SATA 3 card from OWC for $40 just as an experiment. An EW piano that took 10 secs to load from SSDs now takes 8 (compared to... well, I forget, but it was at least a minute and a half off a standard drive).


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## khollister (Dec 3, 2016)

IFM said:


> In LPX I am getting some serious track counts. Cubase is more limited for sure so if you are using CP8.5+ then perhaps the 6,1 MP is better but IMO an upgraded MP 5,1 is still an extremely viable option with LPX.



Didn't mean to suggest a 5.1 isn't useful or fairly powerful - just pointing out that you can't do a direct comparison to the 6.1 on the basis of number of cores.

I'm still running a 6 core 5.1 for my DAW until I go PC next year


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## samphony (Dec 3, 2016)

Hannesdm said:


> So what do you guys recommend?
> 
> Mac Pro 6,1 dustbin with 4 (3,7 GHz), 6 (3,5 GHz) or 12 (2,7 GHz) cores?
> I'm looking at refurbished versions at the moment with 64gig.
> ...



What are you planning to do? Working with A) single machine? Using the Darth Pro as a B) sequencer only?

If A) I'd go 12core if B) I'd go 6 core.

You could also go 6core and upgrade to 12core later.


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## jcrosby (Dec 4, 2016)

Anyone looking for bang for buck would be silly passing up a 2009 4,1 modified into a 5,1.
2009 8 Core Mac Pros can be had for an absolute steal these days, there places that will replace the CPU tray with the 2012 3.46 Ghz Mac Pro CPUs. Easily the best money I've spent...

There are PCIe flash drives that will will *outspec *the cylinder by miles, and many that will play on par with it...

I've been running my box for 7 years, still super fast and doesn't bat an eyelash at newer sample libraries...
(It bechmarks within 2% of the top of the line trash can but way more versatile IMO if you get creative and are willing to spend some money...)

Sure it doesn't have Thunderbolt, I could honestly give a shit if it ever did... (For thunderbolt audio interface users that's of course a different story... Carry on...)

4 drive bays and 3 PCIe slots for storage, as well as being able to replace both DVD drives with a drive caddy/two drives.
All told 6 drives and 3 PCIe slots... No Need for external storage other than backing up...

If external's your bag USB 3 cards a plenty for these....

*4,1 / 5,1 Mods I'd recommend looking into:*

*SQUID x16 M.2 Drive host card - (with 4 M.2's in RAID 0 in 2012 Mac Pro.* M.2 SSDs bought separately.*)* Mine is retrofitted with 3 960 GB M.2s in RAID 0 for 4 Gig/sec I/O and 2.88 TBs.):
http://amfeltec.com/products/pci-express-carrier-board-for-m-2-ssd-modules/
(The SQUID blows the doors off the cylinder in terms of speed... 6 GIGABYTES PER SECOND Read Speed.)
SQUID Benchmarks: http://barefeats.com/hard210.html

*Kingston PCIe x4 M.2 SSD (Great as a boot drive or second sample drive; 1.3 Gigs/second I/O)
960 GB ($500)*: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ngston_hyperx_predator-_-20-104-708-_-Product
*480 GB ($320)*: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...on_hyperx_predator-_-2RC-00BY-00023-_-Product

*Other Recommendations:*
If curious I'd recommend the Kingston Predator above as a boot drive (for cloning purposes) and RAID 0-ing the Drive bays as the bays are SATA II.

RAID 0-ing two bays will put you on par with typical SATA III SSDs, RAID 0-ing all drive bays together will put you about a Gig per sec with massive space if you used 4 1 TB SSDs...

I run mine as such: 4 1TB SSDs in SATA II bays, 2 sets in RAID 0. (1 RAID set for "lite" libraries, 1 RAID set for projects, sound effects, and other samples like custom kits, one shots, etc...)

1 Kingston HyperX Predator 980GB SSD as my boot drive. Working projects go here, 1.3 GB/sec, super snappy...)

1 SQUID x16 - 3x 980 GB M.2 SSDs in RAID 0 for all of my "heavy duty" sample libraries, about 4 GB/sec, rock solid.
(If I wanted to get nuts I could add another 980 GB M.2 for 3.84 TBs and 5.4 GB/sec. Keep in mind that these generate heat. I kept it to 3 to keep the heat down to a reasonable level...)


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## IFM (Dec 4, 2016)

Bang on...my 5,1 is retrofitted with the 3.46 12 core Westmere, came with 64gigs of ram and cost me 2400. I moved all my SSD's over, added a few plus now with USB3 I have the entire template on one machine running rather well (in part thanks to Play5...EW finally figured out OSX).


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## hazza (Dec 6, 2016)

Wow didn't know there were places you can upgrade your CPU tray.. I have a Nehalem 2009 8-core and if Apple don't pull their frickin finger out soon this could very well be the ticket. Thank you jcrosby!


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## jcrosby (Dec 7, 2016)

You bet!

If you want to give DIY a go (youtube has DIY replacement videos. A little braver than I but worth a go if you like to tinker and take things apart... You will need the firmware!):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Xeon-X5690-3-46GHz-12MB-6-Cores-6-40GT-s-LGA1366-SLBVX-Matching-Pair-/112193937574?hash=item1a1f47a0a6:g:q5QAAOSwHMJYHMwj

If you want to buy a pre-fab replacement tray:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-Cpu-Upgrade-5-1-2009-12-core-3-46Ghz-Westmere-64Gb-No-Tray-Return-/222300289653?hash=item33c2213a75:g:jmgAAOSwgY9XeKn3

Although I generally shy away form ebay, the guy I found was on there and did a killer job. 2 1/2 years later and it's running like a champ...He was also very informative comparing benchmarks with the trash can, apps for monitoring temperature, (recommended since this is a high clock speed for these models...) and gave me the scoop on things to keep an eye on; temperature being the big one... Basically the CPU risers will melt over time and it's good to have them replaced every 3-5 years if you start to see high temps... (I checked his store and he doesn't have any of the 3.5 ghz trays currently... the link above has solid feedback though so you should be all good...)

Also if you're thinking about it, _"no tray return"_ is good. You can keep you old tray and sell it locally or on ebay and pocket the cash... Just make sure you email them ahead of time and be sure they will provide you with the firmware update, which is needed to run the new CPUs...

Installing it was painless. I installed the firmware, unlatched the old tray, inserted the new one and rebooted. DONE.
Two minutes max, NO headaches.

*EDIT: Just noticed you're in UK*. There's a company there that does the upgrades, but they're pricy... That being said, it's well worth the cash if you don't want to gamble with the life of your machine and prefer to let someone experienced in the process take care of it...
http://create.pro
(I learned of these guys from Pro Tools Expert / Studio One Expert. They recommend them with high marks... Maybe email them and see what they say...)

And if you're thinking of a high speed drive like the Squid I'd recommend grabbing one ASAP. The Samsung flash blades have gone through the roof. They used to be about 300 USD and have jumped up to 700-850 USD. The Squid boards are still relatively reasonable in comparison, (but not cheap, about 400 USD, and that's with no drives), but the kingston blades are fine as they're basically just as fast... And, since it's a sample drive you're not going to wear and tear it like a traditional SSD so no need for overpriced Samsung drives, (which can only perform at half of their speed anyway)... Basically for about 1600 USD you can put in a screaming PCIe SSD that will host basically all of your samples without sneezing at play back speed... And will most certainly outlast your machine...

Long story short - If I've learned anything about 2009 Mac Pro parts, don't be cheap, jump on them when the price is good because they will go up in price or disappear from the market if you wait... I can't count the times this has happened, people selling upgrades for these machines know they have a customer base... so when new affordable PC part that work come out, and they've been confirmed on macrumors to work in these machines, jump on em or they'll be twice the price when you finally decide to...

Cheers...


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## hazza (Dec 7, 2016)

This is pure gold jcrosby, thank you so much 

I will definitely have chat with create.pro, but in the mean time can I ask... so the CPU will obviously improve processing speed massively, but what else do I need to update in order to avoid bottlenecks? Like would I need to replace the RAM to faster spec? Does the motherboard stay the same? I've already got a PCI card which runs 2 SSDs internally at ~500MB/sec, it's just the damn Firewire/USB connections that keep things in the dark ages. What's the fastest PCI option for connecting to external storage? No Thunderbolt option I assume? Then what about the GPU, is an upgrade going to help my laggy Logic Pro screen redraws, and if so how far do I need to upgrade if I'm not a gamer?

Thanks again for offering a light at the end of the tunnel!

EDIT: I see the pre-fab CPU tray comes with new RAM


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## ag75 (Dec 7, 2016)

New Mac Pro IMO. Be never regretted my purchase and I can throw it in a bag to take with me when I'm on tour. It's quite the beast.


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## jemu999 (Dec 8, 2016)

There is also the possibility to upgrade the harddrive bays in the 5,1 Mac Pro to Sata3 for 6gs speeds of 500mbs from Maxupgrades. Here is a link to a 5,1 Mac Pro with this feature for sale on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-5-1-Mid-2012-3-46GHz-12-core-2TB-128GB-RAM-ATI-5770-/201647163118?hash=item2ef31b86ee:g:5gwAAOSwZVlXmmaB


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## jcrosby (Dec 9, 2016)

hazza said:


> This is pure gold jcrosby, thank you so much
> 
> I will definitely have chat with create.pro, but in the mean time can I ask... so the CPU will obviously improve processing speed massively, but what else do I need to update in order to avoid bottlenecks? Like would I need to replace the RAM to faster spec? Does the motherboard stay the same? I've already got a PCI card which runs 2 SSDs internally at ~500MB/sec, it's just the damn Firewire/USB connections that keep things in the dark ages. What's the fastest PCI option for connecting to external storage? No Thunderbolt option I assume? Then what about the GPU, is an upgrade going to help my laggy Logic Pro screen redraws, and if so how far do I need to upgrade if I'm not a gamer?
> 
> ...


You bet. I can't tell you how many hours I spent searching over the years so happy to help... And yup, the great thing is they usually come with RAM.

Putting faster speed RAM in won't achieve anything. The logic board determines the clock speed, anything faster will be bumped down to the logic board speed... the other thing about RAM is speed really isn't an issue. Even the fastest drives are still many times slower than RAM so it won't achieve anything noticeable. Theoretically maybe, noticeable no...

I do agree about external connections. Having something more than FW800 would be nice... If you have a spare slot you can always do a USB 3 card but that's about it... I can't since I have two PCIe SSDs and a UAD card... It aint the greatest but I get by alright with FW and USB 2 plus I have two regular SATA drives in the DVD Rom bay for backups... And I keep an external backup in case one of the drives in the DVD bay goes... Theses are not particularly fun to install, but really useful... (Just be aware that the speed in the 2009 DVD bay is around 150 MB/sec... Still better than FW!) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MM352A52MP9/

Also, I probably sound like I keep pushing the Squid... the other cool thing about it is you don't have to RAID the m2s. You can have them as separate SSDs. Each up to 1500 MB/sec. So the 4 slot Squid holds 4 M2s. 980 Gigs x4 if you get the kingstons. Just be aware that the m2s generate heat and putting 2 on the underside near your GPU can make the inside of the machine run hot... Hoping to figure out some kind of fan option for mine...

No you can't do thunderbolt in these. the logic board has to support it and it doesn't... USB 3 or e-Sata are the fastest external options. You can get an OWC Accelsior E2 which is a PCIe SSD with 2 e-Sata ports but I sold mine. Doesn't support trim and after some research a lot of hardcore mac guys don't give the Accelsior high marks for that reason...

You can get better GPU cards. This is your best bet: http://www.macvidcards.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html

Hey @jemu999 Didn't know about the backplane. Very cool. Does that attach to PICe or on the back of the logic board?


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## Soundhound (Dec 9, 2016)

If it's okay to jump on this generous free advice train? I'm thinking about a 5,1 as well, and wondering if my Thunderbolt devices are going to allow for it. I have a couple of blackmagic ssd docks, a UAD Apollo Twin and Octo Satellite, all are Thunderbolt 2. So my interface and all sample streaming are over Thunderbolt 2. 

To make this all work with a 5.1 Mac Pro, I was thinking of getting USB3 cards/ports and using USB3 to thunderbolt adapters. 

Anyone know if this would work well?


----------



## toddkedwards (Dec 9, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> a little off topic but can I use the same ram I have on my 2009 mac pro on the new vader ones?
> 2009= 1333MHz DDR3 ECC memory
> Vader= 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory


I don't think you can, since they are different MHz but I could be wrong.


----------



## khollister (Dec 9, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> If it's okay to jump on this generous free advice train? I'm thinking about a 5,1 as well, and wondering if my Thunderbolt devices are going to allow for it. I have a couple of blackmagic ssd docks, a UAD Apollo Twin and Octo Satellite, all are Thunderbolt 2. So my interface and all sample streaming are over Thunderbolt 2.
> 
> To make this all work with a 5.1 Mac Pro, I was thinking of getting USB3 cards/ports and using USB3 to thunderbolt adapters.
> 
> Anyone know if this would work well?



No - The 5.1 MP's are absolutely not TB compatible. And last I checked, it seems the USB3 cards that worked under earlier OS X versions no longer are supported in the latest builds.

Unfortunately, you need to look for a used/refurb 6.1 Mac Pro


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2016)

I'm still skeptical about both machines (5,1 and 6,1), even after all the discussion. Both are about twice the price they should be.

It comes down to Apple simply not having a machine in this category worth buying right now.


----------



## khollister (Dec 9, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm still skeptical about both machines (5,1 and 6,1), even after all the discussion. Both are about twice the price they should be.
> 
> It comes down to Apple simply not having a machine in this category worth buying right now.



No argument there - that is why I've decided to move from Mac to PC since I'm also moving to Cubase. The only way I would stay on a Mac Pro is if I was sticking with LPX. I can build a i7-6850K (6 core, 40 PCIe lanes, 3.6 GHz) with 64GB RAM, TB 3, USB 3.1, 4k video support via HDMI and DP, boot SSD and top of the line cooling (Noctua), power (EVGA Titanium semi-passive) and case (Fractal R4) for under $2000. The somewhat equivalent MP is V2 Xeon (not Broadwell V4), needs additional cases for any expansion, no USB 3.1 or TB 3 (although it does have 3 TB 2 controllers) and is still almost $4000 with the RAM, even refurbed. Given that Cubase is likely to run more efficiently on Windows as well, I just can't justify the Apple premium.

Then there is the whole long term future question of whether Apple even intends to play in the high performance workstation market going forward. I just got tired of being paranoid about being forced off of Macs at some point. Painful because everything else I use is Apple and I do love the OS. But for music, it just doesn't make sense for me if I'm going to a cross platform DAW anyway.


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## Soundhound (Dec 9, 2016)

Uh oh.


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## jononotbono (Dec 9, 2016)

jemu999 said:


> There is also the possibility to upgrade the harddrive bays in the 5,1 Mac Pro to Sata3 for 6gs speeds of 500mbs from Maxupgrades. Here is a link to a 5,1 Mac Pro with this feature for sale on eBay:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-5-1-Mid-2012-3-46GHz-12-core-2TB-128GB-RAM-ATI-5770-/201647163118?hash=item2ef31b86ee:g:5gwAAOSwZVlXmmaB



That's an interesting upgrade. Think a few beers, a bit of Goolgling, and getting the Soldering Iron out might be in order! Thanks! I had no idea!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2016)

khollister, after 30 years of working on Macs all day long, I'm certainly not interested in switching to Windows - for one because I do use LPX, but mainly because I have years of work set up and I know how to find all the buried bones. Apple will come out with better machines for studio use.

Every once in a while I think about a hackintosh... and then I ask myself whether I'd rather spend my spare time engaging in debauchery or troubleshooting a hackintosh.


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## khollister (Dec 9, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> khollister, after 30 years of working on Macs all day long, I'm certainly not interested in switching to Windows - for one because I do use LPX, but mainly because I have years of work set up and I know how to find all the buried bones. Apple will come out with better machines for studio use.
> 
> Every once in a while I think about a hackintosh... and then I ask myself whether I'd rather spend my spare time engaging in debauchery or troubleshooting a hackintosh.



Wasn't trying to sell you (or anyone else) on Windows. Just frustrated myself and was venting on what I plan to do. I'm not so sure I share your optimism on an eventual new Mac Pro, though. 

Sorry for the detour - back to MP upgrades.


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## Soundhound (Dec 9, 2016)

The latest hope against hope is that a new mac pro will come out in march 2017. I'm not holding my breath. If I can hold out till then and the new one does come out but is priced for members of the aristocracy, I'm thinking either a used 2013 6 or 8 core, or a new iMac, and possibly a pc slave...


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## mc_deli (Dec 9, 2016)

...I am seriously considering the nMP - my rMBP is just sluggish with big projects, I would love everything to be more responsive - but, as mentioned above, it is sooooo overpriced. However, waiting for a new MP is probably going to be even more disappointing. If there is a new MP in 2017 - and that's a big if - then, based on recent announcements, it is more likely to be minor improvement on specs, USBc everywhere, new form factor, big price hike!

Rock and hard place. Buy an ovepriced 3 year old "new" machine, or wait for the next machine, which, upon release, will make that 3 year old machine even more attractive!


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## khollister (Dec 9, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> The latest hope against hope is that a new mac pro will come out in march 2017. I'm not holding my breath. If I can hold out till then and the new one does come out but is priced for members of the aristocracy, I'm thinking either a used 2013 6 or 8 core, or a new iMac, and possibly a pc slave...



There are no new Xeon CPU's being released by Intel until Skylake-X Q2/Q3 of 2017, so I can't imagine Apple releasing a Broadwell update at this point. I do think a Kabylake iMac refresh will happen Q1 though (i7-7700), although some prerelease benchmarks Ive seen don't show the 7700 as a huge improvement. The refresh should bring USB-C and TB 3 though. Hopefully it doesn't bring soldered in RAM on the 27" in the quest for thinner.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2016)

> Wasn't trying to sell you (or anyone else) on Windows. Just frustrated myself and was venting on what I plan to do. I'm not so sure I share your optimism on an eventual new Mac Pro, though



Understood. And I'm not saying there's going to be a new Mac Pro, I'm saying Apple will release machines more powerful than the current Mac Pros in one format or another.


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## synthpunk (Dec 9, 2016)

That's what business expense write-offs are for

I would share my accountants information Vinnie Boombatz but he's away for a few years if you know what I mean ( Car Talk reference)



Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm still skeptical about both machines (5,1 and 6,1), even after all the discussing. Both are about twice the price they should be.
> 
> It comes down to Apple simply not having a machine in this category worth buying right now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2016)

I don't know Vinnie, but I know these people:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/staff-credits


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## JohnG (Dec 9, 2016)

I am very cheap, so I use old, souped-up computers, but lots of them.


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## Soundhound (Dec 9, 2016)

i always wanted that list!

Dr Vinnie Boombatz was, i'm pretty sure, johnny carson's personal physician. 



Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't know Vinnie, but I know these people:
> 
> http://www.cartalk.com/content/staff-credits





Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't know Vinnie, but I know these people:
> 
> http://www.cartalk.com/content/staff-credits


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## Soundhound (Dec 10, 2016)

Ok looks like my hand is about to be forced. One of the Thunderbolt ports on my 2012 i7 3.4 ghz iMac just died. About $700 to replace it. So I'm thinking of either getting a 6 core 3.5ghz 2013 Mac Pro refurbished from apple, about $3300, or get a Quad core from ebay, looks like you can get them for about $2800, plus an 8 core 2.4ghz processor upgrade from OSC for $1200 or so (there are processor upgrades on ebay for more cores/better ghz for less as well)

I was hoping to get lots of headroom when I make the move to a mac pro, and I'm not sure 6 cores will give me the headroom over time I'm looking for.

I do all kinds of stuff, including some heavier orchestral. I don't have a big template like many here and for the most part have good headroom, but I definitely push the envelope from time to time on my current iMac.

Thoughts?

P.S. I'm pretty tied to Thunderbolt with a UAD Apollo Twin, UAD Octo Satellite and 2 Blackmagic Mulitocks, all Thunderbolt 2.


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## JohnG (Dec 10, 2016)

@Soundhound [mysterious voice] "I loook into the future....and I see....many slave computerzzz...for youuuuu..."

I think this may be less expensive than a Monster Mac.


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## khollister (Dec 10, 2016)

The CPU upgrade price from OWC is a lot more than $1200. The 8 core CPU they are listing for $1249 is a 95W TDP 2.6 GHz 8 core, not the 3.0 or 3.3 you probably want.

BTW, the 2 TB ports are, I'm pretty sure, both connected to a single controller. This means you have 20 Gbps total bandwidth between the 2 ports. An option is to daisy chain the TB stuff on the remaining working port (assuming all that stuff has a passthrough).

Personally, I would get a 6 core (which will give you at least 50% more capacity plus I believe the single core performance of the 3.5 GHz V2 Xeon is better than the i7 you have in the 2012). If you eventually need more poke, either replace the CPU at that point or, as John suggested, throw an inexpensive PC slave together.


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## Soundhound (Dec 10, 2016)

I love seeing into the future!  I was thinking about an iMac and a PC slave, but I'm a scaredy cat and would love to stay all mac. Plus I'm liking the idea of those 40" screens, so that would make the beautiful new iMac screen a waste.

Sigh.



JohnG said:


> @Soundhound [mysterious voice] "I loook into the future....and I see....many slave computerzzz...for youuuuu..."
> 
> I think this may be less expensive than a Monster Mac.


----------



## Soundhound (Dec 10, 2016)

Thanks! I see a 12 core upgrade there for $2600. Plus a used 2013 quad core would bring it to about $5500?
Does OWC change what they're offering fairly frequently I guess? Do you have any recommendations for other places to get nMP cpu upgrades?



khollister said:


> The CPU upgrade price from OWC is a lot more than $1200. The 8 core CPU they are listing for $1249 is a 95W TDP 2.6 GHz 8 core, not the 3.0 or 3.3 you probably want.
> 
> BTW, the 2 TB ports are, I'm pretty sure, both connected to a single controller. This means you have 20 Gbps total bandwidth between the 2 ports. An option is to daisy chain the TB stuff on the remaining working port (assuming all that stuff has a passthrough).


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## khollister (Dec 10, 2016)

There are folks on eBay selling nMP upgrade kits (CPU + 64 GB ram) for reasonable prices. I would contact them beforehand and confirm they are production CPU's and not engineering samples (which do show up sometimes). You can also search for places selling the appropriate E5-xxxx-V2 Xeon CPU's.

A E5-2667 v2 (8c 3.3 Ghz) or E5-2690 v2 (10c 3.0 Ghz) are the parts you would ideally want. The 12 core part is hideously expensive. The 8 or 10 core part new retail will usually run about $1900-2100.


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## Soundhound (Dec 10, 2016)

I'll look them up, thanks so much. The house is about to fill up with drunk people, so will have to wait till tomorrow. I really was hoping to wait for the next version of the nMP to show up so the refurb prices would drop, but as the great man said, life is what happens while you're making other plans...



khollister said:


> There are folks on eBay selling nMP upgrade kits (CPU + 64 GB ram) for reasonable prices. I would contact them beforehand and confirm they are production CPU's and not engineering samples (which do show up sometimes). You can also search for places selling the appropriate E5-xxxx-V2 Xeon CPU's.
> 
> A E5-2667 v2 (8c 3.3 Ghz) or E5-2690 v2 (10c 3.0 Ghz) are the parts you would ideally want. The 12 core part is hideously expensive. The 8 or 10 core part new retail will usually run about $1900-2100.


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## khollister (Dec 10, 2016)

Just looked on eBay (US) - iPower is selling refurb 6 core w 64 GB, 512 GB SSD, factory warranty eligible for Apple Care for $3299. Seems like a pretty good deal. I would go for that and evaluate upgrading the CPU later.


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## Soundhound (Dec 10, 2016)

That seems like a smart way to go. Is iPower a seller people are generally liking/you're familiar with?


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## jcrosby (Dec 10, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> If it's okay to jump on this generous free advice train? I'm thinking about a 5,1 as well, and wondering if my Thunderbolt devices are going to allow for it. I have a couple of blackmagic ssd docks, a UAD Apollo Twin and Octo Satellite, all are Thunderbolt 2. So my interface and all sample streaming are over Thunderbolt 2.
> 
> To make this all work with a 5.1 Mac Pro, I was thinking of getting USB3 cards/ports and using USB3 to thunderbolt adapters.
> 
> Anyone know if this would work well?



Thunderbolt is not possible on these machines. It has to due with the specs of the logic board and CPU architecture from what I understand.

Apparently this USB 3.1 works but only under Sierra. http://www.datoptic.com/ec/usb31-host-for-mac-windows-and-linux-pcie-powered.html

But as far as I know even the adapters don't work. May be wrong, if I find out they do I'll post


----------



## JohnG (Dec 10, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> The house is about to fill up with drunk people,





Soundhound said:


> That seems like a smart way to go



I thought those two things should be brought together in a single post.


----------



## synthpunk (Dec 10, 2016)

For you guys using Mac Pro towers and multiple slaves what is your electric bill every month?


----------



## URL (Dec 10, 2016)

....for those who do not live in sunny California where you can use solar cells ...
HRM, how much power does a tape recorder consumes...soon Mac is back...yeah.


----------



## lpuser (Dec 10, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> For you guys using Mac Pro towers and multiple slaves what is your electric bill every month?



I have never checked, but honestly the point is: Having a Vader Mac which consumes less power but then having to add all kinds of external peripherals which also need power connections does not seem to be that much of a better option IMO. And while I still use cabled mouse and keyboards I can at least deduct them from the power bill, because no permanent recharging is required


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## synthpunk (Dec 10, 2016)

When in Brooklyn our bill was $130 per month when I had a Mac pro tower and 2 Mac Mini slaves and about the same when the Mac Pro Tower was replaced by an iMac now it's about $70 a month with a Mac Pro Vader helmet I've been told the Vader helmet uses one-third the power of a average tower


----------



## JohnG (Dec 10, 2016)

I have solar. Nyah nyah


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## URL (Dec 10, 2016)

...living near the Arctic Circle where electricity often comes and goes, it is good with some trained dogs that can run on the treadmills with a piece of meat that is attractive and provides a great dynamo power so that samples sounds for 12 hours or get a "bicycle" yourself
to obtain power. My dogs are too bony and does not like meat anymore and myself are vegitarian ... bagpipe .. rest in pice... If I'm off topic? oh Noooo


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## samphony (Dec 11, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> Thanks! I see a 12 core upgrade there for $2600. Plus a used 2013 quad core would bring it to about $5500?
> Does OWC change what they're offering fairly frequently I guess? Do you have any recommendations for other places to get nMP cpu upgrades?


You can get a XEON E5-2697 v2 12core processor for $600-$750.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Dec 12, 2016)

Keeping this thread going.
I may have chance of getting hold of a 4.1 2009 which create pro I know can upgrade.
I notice they're also selling 6.1 systems now but they're still megabucks understandably.

There's a thought in the back of my mind that upgrading the Tower (costing me about £2000) is of course cheaper.
In the long run though the 6.1 although double the price will last me double the time.

I can see why people are struggling when it comes to sticking with Mac's at this point.


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## Soundhound (Dec 12, 2016)

I see a disturbing pattern emerging here.



JohnG said:


> I thought those two things should be brought together in a single post.





JohnG said:


> I thought those two things should be brought together in a single post.


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## Soundhound (Dec 12, 2016)

On Ebay? 



samphony said:


> You can get a XEON E5-2697 v2 12core processor for $600-$750.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 12, 2016)

You know, the price of digital technology is supposed to go down over time. That's either in money or in increased power for the same money. Every Mac I've bought for the studio over the past 30 years has cost about $2500, plus or minus. 

Why does that now buy a 7-year-old used machine? And why is a Mac Pro that came out in 2012 still at least $5 grand?

Inflation has been low, and there's certainly no shortage of supply.


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 12, 2016)

I have made a hackintosh, ...... I know I know... but it run stable and have almost the same horsepower as the highest upgradeable Mac Pro, besides the Xeon cores. 
And it cost under a third of the expensive Mac Pro. 

As for me, who is a student, and love horsepower, but hate high price. So for now this works for me!! :D 

I do think the Apple products look great. But are somewhat overpriced.

All the best
Rune


----------



## URL (Dec 12, 2016)

RRBE Sound said:


> I have made a hackintosh, ...... I know I know... but it run stable and have almost the same horsepower as the highest upgradeable Mac Pro, besides the Xeon cores.
> And it cost under a third of the expensive Mac Pro.
> 
> As for me, who is a student, and love horsepower, but hate high price. So for now this works for me!! :D
> ...




If I may ask what is your spec on the hardware...I'm consider?


----------



## RRBE Sound (Dec 12, 2016)

URL said:


> If I may ask what is your spec on the hardware...I'm consider?



Sure!! 
It's an intel i7 hyper threat CPU,
Compatible motherboard,
32 GB DDR3 2400 MHz, system only running 1330 I think.
500 GB SSD, one 1T HDD and one 2T HD.

A Readon 7970 GPU

I can not remember the power supply. 500 to 700 I think.

It's a noice canceling case from cooler masters,

Display is just a normal standard high resolution screen.

Apple keyboard touchpad and a great mouse, for long working hours.

Runs the newest el Captain 

I think that's it.


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## samphony (Dec 12, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> On Ebay?


Yes


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## jcrosby (Dec 12, 2016)

RRBE Sound said:


> Sure!!
> It's an intel i7 hyper threat CPU,
> Compatible motherboard,
> 32 GB DDR3 2400 MHz, system only running 1330 I think.
> ...



I've been thinking of going this route for a laptop sine the Macbook is dead AFAIC. How difficult was it to get the drivers working? And how difficult or easy was the process overall?

Good to now 10.11 works. that's what I'm running now... What about the app store? I'd imagine that doesn't work?


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 12, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> I've been thinking of going this route for a laptop sine the Macbook is dead AFAIC. How difficult was it to get the drivers working? And how difficult or easy was the process overall?
> 
> Good to now 10.11 works. that's what I'm running now... What about the app store? I'd imagine that doesn't work?



Sounds great! - Although I am not sure (however I assume) that the procedure is the same.

The funny thing was that I am actually not that technical.. So I had a tech-friend help me. But for some reason he could not get the install working. So I tried myself, only using a youtube guide.

And the I got it up running. not that many bumps.. I did make a minor mistake, so I had to re-install, but this was only just when I first had the system running.

Talking drivers: for GPU I just downloaded the latest driver. No problem. The same for Audio. (Which, for some reason is the thing that fails the most.)

It have been running for 2 months, and no issue have come up.

I also need to say, that I have not changed any knxt. files. As doing so, can be a pain in the ass. - This means that I fx. do not have sleep mode. 

And last, I download all updates and like from the App Store  

All the best


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## khollister (Dec 13, 2016)

I guess I sort of owe some folks an apology - after trying CB9 on my i7-4930 slave as well as my cMP 6 core, I'm far more impressed with Cubase's performance on OS X considering the theoretical performance advantage of the 4930. I also see that USB 3 is working on later OS X versions in spite of my earlier comment (and I may even buy one of those cards to use in my cMP hex).

Now to figure out where to get some cheap RAM (I have 24 GB, would like to go to 48 with 16GB DIMMs). I was also looking at dual CPU trays with 3-3.33 GHz CPU's and RAM for about $1200 on eBay. Would like a nMP but the cost even used plus the need for a BMM and UAD satellite puts that out of reach at the moment.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Dec 14, 2016)

Forgive me for not going through this whole thread.
So a 2010 3.46GHz 12 Core Xeon X5690 Mac Pro 5,1 with 64gb Ram and an SSD is looking around £2500
What's a similar PC system build going to cost?
Will it be massively cheaper should I have say a contact who can put it together for me?
Sorry for causing a plethora of exhaling humans at the sight of this post.
Just curious.


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## khollister (Dec 14, 2016)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> Forgive me for not going through this whole thread.
> So a 2010 3.46GHz 12 Core Xeon X5690 Mac Pro 5,1 with 64gb Ram and an SSD is looking around £2500
> What's a similar PC system build going to cost?
> Will it be massively cheaper should I have say a contact who can put it together for me?
> ...



I'm not in the UK, so my prices are not exact (just converting dollars to pounds) but a 6 core PC w 64GB and 1 SSD is about $1800-1900 (~£1600), an 8 core close to £2000 probably. This is with case (Fractal R4), top spec power supply (EVGA Titanium semi-passive) & CPU cooler (Noctua D15S), Windows 10 license, basic video card capable of 4k, 64GB RAM and a smallish SSD for the OS+apps. If you want TB, add a bit more for a more upscale motherboard. Parts may be more expensive there, currency aside or not - don't have a clue. 

Not sure if this is "massively more expensive" to you or not. I was going this route myself, but after playing with Cubase 9 on my PC slave vs my 5.1 6 core MP, I think I'm sticking with the Mac for now. I already have a 6 core PC slave and am used to working with VEP, so I'm not fixated on collapsing everything back into the DAW on a single machine. I also keep the Logic option open if Apple surprises me and adds a slicker articulation management capability and multi-timbral support that is straightforward.


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## khollister (Dec 14, 2016)

So now that I have been assimilated back into the Apple borg collective, I'm spiffing up my 2010 6 core MP. I have ordered an inexpensive USB3 card (to use with my USB3 external bare drive dock for backups), throwing in a couple more SSD's and am considering a RAM increase. I currently have 24GB (3 x 8GB) and am debating adding another 8GB DIMM for 32 (~$50) or going to 3 channel 48GB (3 x 16GB, $300). I recall reading that dropping back to 2 channel RAM from 3 channel has a pretty tiny impact on these machines (I think I remember a test of < 5%), so given I only have 6 cores and won't be loading huge numbers of sample-based instruments locally, I'm thinking go cheap and add another 8GB?

Once I got over new computer lust and all the talk lately about "don't need no stinking' VEP", I realized that my 5.1 6 core is entirely adequate as a sequencer/DAW + effects rig given I have already bought into the VEP slave concept. And frankly, I think VEP actually enhances my workflow rather than kills it (it's all what you get used to). I will install some basic libraries locally for sketching and basic composition when I don't need/want to fire up the slave, but my growth plan is to throw a new MB and 8/10 core CPU in the slave when necessary.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 29, 2016)

Anyone buying a new Mac of any model in the UK, please read Paul Farrer's piece in this months SOS because I could've written that article verbatim.

You need to know what your getting into if things go wrong because Apple are a fucking joke when it comes to sorting out problems. FYI.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Dec 29, 2016)

Just read it for free on SOS.
http://www.soundonsound.com/music-business/notes-deadline-0117

My question is, just how long will the cheese grater Mac last before the planned obsolescence really takes effect on the unit? 
In 5 years time there might be a larger percentage of people still using them compared to the Trashcan.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 29, 2016)

That's good putting that up Kauf.

People need to know, even with AppleCare, the fucking bullshit they put you through. They tried the 'pay for another one' routine with me and I told them litigation would ensue very rapidly. All of this that Paul Farrer describes very eruditely within the parameters of a magazine vis a vi _not_ overstepping the mark because of possible legal reprisal, took 3 months. That was in the middle of an album. That can seriously piss you off.


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## synthpunk (Dec 29, 2016)

Very informative and could certainly turn the tide with artists who usually use apple but don't want to be f***** with.



Baron Greuner said:


> That's good putting that up Kauf.
> 
> People need to know, even with AppleCare, the fucking bullshit they put you through. They tried the 'pay for another one' routine with me and I told them litigation would ensue very rapidly. All of this that Paul Farrer describes very eruditely within the parameters of a magazine vis a vi _not_ overstepping the mark because of possible legal reprisal, took 3 months. That was in the middle of an album. That can seriously piss you off.


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## URL (Dec 29, 2016)

Hua- how lucky I am, who have gone over to the PC- seems for life...Apple have become something that is not good for themselves and users.


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## mc_deli (Dec 30, 2016)

Crazy to read how a maxxed out 2010 MP outperforms everything but the highest spec 8/12 core helmets.
http://www.macrumors.com/guide/which-mac-pro-to-buy/

I guess it comes down to the video editors and TB. In agencies I see next to no helmets for graphics and light video work. But I don't see too many edit suites - are there a lot of helmets in post - are they standard?

The "new" MacRumours clue that caught my attention was about moving MP production to Asia. This is the kind of thing that would explain the "delay" with a new model.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 30, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> Crazy to read how a maxxed out 2010 MP outperforms everything but the highest spec 8/12 core helmets.
> http://www.macrumors.com/guide/which-mac-pro-to-buy/
> 
> I guess it comes down to the video editors and TB. In agencies I see next to no helmets for graphics and light video work. But I don't see too many edit suites - are there a lot of helmets in post - are they standard?
> ...



I see almost complete penetration of the cylinder in Hollywood edit and post suites that I've been inside of in the past couple of years - which is only a small cross-section to be sure, but.... I only saw a silver tower once and that was in the server room for the four edit suites on a tv series. All of the spotting sessions I go to in the edit rooms for Wayward Pines are equipped with cylinders. Now, these are probably rental rigs, so maybe the rental house just wants to have spiffy new rigs to send out, but still. The editors said they are loving the cylinder. Maybe the software they use takes better advantage of the spiffy FirePro graphics cards?

One one TNT show that I only scored for a couple of episodes, they were cutting the show on an iMac 5k! Final Cut Pro, HDMI out to the big tv, OWC Thunderbolt SSD-RAID, second Mac monitor via Thunderbolt.... done. 

Don't forget, there's that mysterious Apple CPU ID number that someone dug up inside the Sierra OS that refers to an as-yet-unused Apple Product ID that has ten USB-C ports, and this could be nothing but a new Mac Pro. Laptops = 4 ports, iMacs = 6 ports, Mac Pro = 10 ports. Current Mac Pro cylinder has 6x Thunderbolt + 4x USB = 10 ports. A possible reason for the delay in a new cylinder is that the Xeon chips that support USB-C and Thunderbolt3 won't be available until Feb-March or so. It would make no sense for Apple to do an interim release of a cylinder before they can just totally re-work the back panel for ten USB-C ports AND get a spec and speed bump out of new Xeons. This is such an Apple-like way to go - a single, unified port type that encompasses ALL forms of i/o at once. The laptops were the first, I suspect that the next iMac will do the same, and if there is another cylinder it will undoubtedly go that way as well.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Dec 30, 2016)

Spoke with Create Pro earlier who have said they're being told apple updates on 5.1 are expected until around 2020.


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## mc_deli (Dec 30, 2016)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> Spoke with Create Pro earlier who have said they're being told apple updates on 5.1 are expected until around 2020.


They would say that though wouldn't they, they have a kinda vested interest there


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 30, 2016)

You mean they'll continue making OS versions that will support the 5,1?


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## Kaufmanmoon (Dec 31, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You mean they'll continue making OS versions that will support the 5,1?


That was my take on it. 
Plugin developers must consider their users so will be interesting to see how they're supported over the next few years.


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## URL (Dec 31, 2016)

Who needs Apple...when the PC works so well nowadays...over prized products that do not have latest technology -probably do not believe that music-related professions are interesting for their business...


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## GdT (Jan 3, 2017)

With reference to getting support for Apple hardware, my advice for what it's worth, here in the UK...
If I want to buy any hardware Apple product I never buy it direct from Apple. I buy from a reputable retailer. Then if anything goes wrong immediately they can be held responsible under UK consumer rights and are usually all too willing to help.
My Mac Pro from 2009 had a Mac HD disk drive that, surprise, surprise, failed exactly one month after the 3 year warranty expired


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## Ashermusic (Jan 3, 2017)

URL said:


> Who needs Apple...when the PC works so well nowadays...over prized products that do not have latest technology -probably do not believe that music-related professions are interesting for their business...



I need Apple, because I am a Logic Pro guy who is more tied to the App than the platform. And i have seen way too many ugly things happen with Hackintoshes to ever go that route.


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## jcrosby (Jan 3, 2017)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> Just read it for free on SOS.
> http://www.soundonsound.com/music-business/notes-deadline-0117
> 
> My question is, just how long will the cheese grater Mac last before the planned obsolescence really takes effect on the unit?
> In 5 years time there might be a larger percentage of people still using them compared to the Trashcan.


I've had mine running since 2009. I monitor all temperatures and drive health, and use smcFanControl to keep it running cool. The thing still purrrs like a kitten... I did do a CPU upgrade which probably extended its shelf life, but so far don't see any sign of this thing kicking out within the next 3 or 4 years. 

I know guys who still run the 2,1s and 3,1s just fine. Best investment I've made as far as a machine goes... And you can modify the living hell out of these making them basically just as fast as newer ones without the shitty obsolescent design. Plus they're easy to take apart and work on yourself... It's the closest apple ever got to a DIY PC you can tinker with yourself...


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## jcrosby (Jan 3, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You mean they'll continue making OS versions that will support the 5,1?


Even when they've done this people usually find ways around. Mac Rumors is your best friend as far as this kind of stuff goes... So far Sierra runs fine on them and will be supported by developers for at least 3 years, (generally).

As far as what happens when or if they don't run anymore (at the OS level)? I've thought this through. I either find something new or hang on my machine as is and keep going... (The latter being more likely.) Changing systems rarely goes smoothly and the reality is I have all the software I need to produce, mix or edit any genre I want... "Needing" to replace this thing when it does exactly what I need it to just to run some new piece of software makes no sense to me... Reliability is way more valuable...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 3, 2017)

Yes, I run a 3,1.

And you're right, I just did a quick search for "Sierra 3,1" and the first hit was this:

http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-3-1-running-sierra.1977679/

Will have to read the thread to decide whether it's worth trying. I have Sierra on my laptop, and I can't say there's anything particularly different about it.


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## URL (Jan 4, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I need Apple, because I am a Logic Pro guy who is more tied to the App than the platform. And i have seen way too many ugly things happen with Hackintoshes to ever go that route.



there are advantages to Apple and that is, both Cubase and Logic can be used in Apple computers and is a stable system.
Personally I think that the loss of Apple / Logic is not as big as I anticipated before I moved over to the PC.
I still have my Apple MBP/MB and still use them for my work... now I sure don't need to wait for over prized Apple to update there models.


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## jcrosby (Jan 4, 2017)

The main reason I still run mine is it performs on par with most machines these days, PC or Mac. Sure I've had to add a few pieces of hardware, but that's any machine... Unless you buy a brand new box with m.2, you're paying for an m.2 drive anyway.... Switching machines just seems like throwing money down a hole... And, if I ever did want to migrate to Windows I can always bootcamp for a while and switch over when finally ready to make the jump to a windows machine... (Which does seem inevitable at some point down the road. I don't see a bright future for Apple in terms of computers.)

If I were buying from scratch sure I'd probably hesitate in buying a 5,1. But, that would be purely psychological since I know from experience how versatile and future proof these machine's actually have been. Other than Thunderbolt, (which is being replaced by USB-C anyway), you can stick virtually anything in it, and that includes USB-C according to Macrumors. http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/usb-3-1-pcie-for-cmp-info-repository.1866301/ It's a little dicy for now but that's a driver issue as far as I know since it's new to macOS....

For people tied to TB sure, it makes sense to find an alternative... With that said, if it's purely a storage issue than it's moot. Having all drives in the machine is more efficient since latency is lowest when connected directly to the logic board.


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## jcrosby (Jan 4, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Will have to read the thread to decide whether it's worth trying. I have Sierra on my laptop, and I can't say there's anything particularly different about it.


 If it's a software compatibility issue it makes sense, if not needed I'd skip until it's more stable... In hindsight I would have gone Yosemite, rootless is a pain in the ass and you get stuck with nagging garbage apps like photos...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 4, 2017)

Yeah, I skimmed that thread and it's far more trouble than it's worth. The only feature I'd like is Handoff, and that requires a $100 Bluetooth 4 card. Feh.

Funny that there are people in that thread going on about the Radeon 2600 card in the 3,1 as if it's a disease. How many frames per second do you need for anything other than computer games, which to me are less interesting than watching paint drip.



> Other than Thunderbolt, (which is being replaced by USB-C anyway)



Thunderbolt is going to use the USB-C connection, but it'll still be a different protocol from what I understand. That's what they did with the MacBook - a pretty badly-specified machine, by the way.

But one digresses...


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## mc_deli (Jan 5, 2017)

I just visited my favourite store.
3 year guarantee.
I was looking at the MP helmet 4 Core model with processor upgrade to 6 core. This means same spec as base 6 spec core but only 2x2gb video and only 12gb ram.
Obvs idea here is to put 64gb OWC ram in thus saving money on ram and graphics.

Shade over €4k but offset against tax and vat as a business expense. So "real" rose tinted cost to me is @€2.5k plus the ram and a BM multidock...

The helmets are not commonly kept in stock and are built and shipped to order it seems. I don't want USB-c dongle hell.

Am I nuts for seriously considering this (upgrade on rMBP that gets everyday day job use anyway)?


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## dagmarpiano (Mar 18, 2017)

Hi Charlieclouser. 

As the developer of Dronar I'm sorry it's causing you CPU strife. 

It's true that it is a real CPU hog. I'm not the Scripter but I can only trust him when he tells me it's insanely complex code that enables all the separate live modulation, effects, rhythm sequencer and arpeggio control over 8 separate sounds (multiplied by how many notes you are holding down). 

I have a pretty fast 5K iMac and can run quite a few instances on Cubase without trouble but honestly it's not going be great on slower systems unfortunately. 

The Scripter says it's as optimised as it can be so I guess it's just one of those things where we can only offer all that complexity to people who freeze tracks or have a fast system. 

That said I'll keep pushing him to see if he can improve the engine


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## dcoscina (Mar 18, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I need Apple, because I am a Logic Pro guy who is more tied to the App than the platform. And i have seen way too many ugly things happen with Hackintoshes to ever go that route.


I agree. I have used both PC and Mac for music composing. Mac isn't full proof as much as they'd like you to believe but after working with it for 10 years, I've gotten used to its environment and while I use Windows 10 for my day job, I just haven't had too much success or interest in porting back to PC for music making.

BTW- I'm at a similar cross roads- I have an old MP 3.1 and by next year, I know I will need to change it for something- I'm told iMac Quad i7 are very good and I could use the older MP for samples (VEP 6 PRO). Hence I wouldn't need as much RAM as I would if using a single machine for everything like I've been doing now. But part of my is very resistant to having both CPU and Monitor all tied up in one. If my current display fails, I have back ups. Not so much with the iMac though you can hook up 2 27" monitors so I suppose one wouldn't be completely in the dark should it fail.


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## samphony (Mar 18, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> I agree. I have used both PC and Mac for music composing. Mac isn't full proof as much as they'd like you to believe but after working with it for 10 years, I've gotten used to its environment and while I use Windows 10 for my day job, I just haven't had too much success or interest in porting back to PC for music making.
> 
> BTW- I'm at a similar cross roads- I have an old MP 3.1 and by next year, I know I will need to change it for something- I'm told iMac Quad i7 are very good and I could use the older MP for samples (VEP 6 PRO). Hence I wouldn't need as much RAM as I would if using a single machine for everything like I've been doing now. But part of my is very resistant to having both CPU and Monitor all tied up in one. If my current display fails, I have back ups. Not so much with the iMac though you can hook up 2 27" monitors so I suppose one wouldn't be completely in the dark should it fail.


But you could create a backup scenario in case the iMac fails. You could take it to repair and work with the Mac Pro until you get back the iMac.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 18, 2017)

You can find 4,1s upgraded to 12-core 5,1s on ebay for quite a lot less than they were a few months ago.

That's what persuaded me to do it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 18, 2017)

You can also still find them for $1900 - 2000, but I found mine for 2/3 that.


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm seriously thinking about getting a Mac Pro 6,1, an Apollo Quad Twin and a Black Magic Multi Dock. 

Now it's been a while since this thread was started, I am wondering a few things...

I want to use the 6,1 as my main DAW computer so should I go for a 6 core, 8 Core or a 12 core? Obviously with each increment, the clock speed gets lower. I'm tempted to go for the 12 Core.

I need to be able to run 4k Computer Displays so what is the best GFX option? I don't really need something overkill but I will probably start seeing a misty Red if I invested in something like this and I had GFX problems.

I will get 64gb of RAM (can't afford anymore and won't need anymore).

Where is the best place in the UK to buy a 6,1 and shall I get a refurb? If so, where will be best that will offer me a Guarantee in case anything bad happens?

I'm going to need to buy a Black magic multi dock. Are there any places that sell them secondhand or is the BlackMagic website the best course of action? Would love to hear opinions on all this! Thanks!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 9, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Where is the best place in the UK to buy a 6,1 and shall I get a refurb? If so, where will be best that will offer me a Guarantee in case anything bad happens?



You probably won't like this answer, but buy a refurb from the Apple Store with 3-year Apple Care (then you are covered). And in the first two weeks, you can put the Mac Pro through the ringer and return it if it doesn't work with your 4k displays, etc. 100% refund.


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## synthpunk (Aug 9, 2017)

Six core works fine here, you can always upgrade the processor to 8, 10, 12 core down the road or go down the middle with a 8 core.

I will leave the 4K questions for others more expert in that field.

P. S. Have you given any thought to the current iMac as well with the retina screen which is quite beautiful.


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Six core works fine here, you can always upgrade the processor to 8, 10, 12 core down the road or go down the middle with a 8 core.
> 
> I will leave the 4K questions for others more expert in that field.
> 
> P. S. Have you given any thought to the current iMac as well with the retina screen which is quite beautiful.



I have a 43 inch 4k screen for my main display and I have no doubt it isn't as lovely as a Retina but I love the 43 inch so much. I also just don't want to be tied to an iMac so I've decided on the Mac Pro 6,1. Interesting about the CPU upgrades. I did that to my 5,1 but thought it wasn't possible for the 6,1? After the amount of instability I have been experiencing with the 5,1 I have, I think I'll just stick to keeping it as is. I'm just curious about the Clock speed drop the higher the core count gets. I've not heard anyone complain (other than price) of the 12 Core. Hmmm...


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## synthpunk (Aug 9, 2017)

Here is some more info on upgrading processors. Getting the heat paste right seems like the trickiest part.



http://www.everymac.com/systems/app...o-upgrade-mac-pro-cylinder-cpu-processor.html



jononotbono said:


> I have a 43 inch 4k screen for my main display and I have no doubt it isn't as lovely as a Retina but I love the 43 inch so much. I also just don't want to be tied to an iMac so I've decided on the Mac Pro 6,1. Interesting about the CPU upgrades. I did that to my 5,1 but thought it wasn't possible for the 6,1? After the amount of instability I have been experiencing with the 5,1 I have, I think I'll just stick to keeping it as is. I'm just curious about the Clock speed drop the higher the core count gets. I've not heard anyone complain (other than price) of the 12 Core. Hmmm...



And I'm sure you have heard The whispers of a new Mac Pro Design coming buy the new year?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 9, 2017)

Jonobono, why are you experiencing instability with your 5,1? The processor upgrade?


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Jonobono, why are you experiencing instability with your 5,1? The processor upgrade?



Apparently I have 2 faulty ram slots, the wrong model of ram installed and a faulty sensor on Logic Board. Then I have a pair of 3.33ghz 5680 Xeons I Installed but I did buy them off eBay so not entirely sure if they are ok or not. Always the secondhand risk. When I load my template, CPU is at 99% (completely unusable) but then I disable one VEPro tab and CPU goes to normal. Then I immediately re-enable said VEPro tab (just to see what happens) and cpu stays the same. It's weird. Basically had enough of wasting so much time and thinking it's time to upgrade now. I'm not going to be able to afford any of he new Apple stuff so the 6,1 is the way forward for me.


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## jononotbono (Aug 9, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Apparently I have 2 faulty ram slots, the wrong model of ram installed and a faulty sensor on Logic Board. Then I have a pair of 3.33ghz 5680 Xeons I Installed but I did buy them off eBay so not entirely sure if they are ok or not. Always the secondhand risk. When I load my template, CPU is at 99% (completely unusable) but then I disable one VEPro tab and CPU goes to normal. Then I immediately re-enable said VEPro tab (just to see what happens) and cpu stays the same. It's weird. Basically had enough of wasting so much time and thinking it's time to upgrade now. I'm not going to be able to afford any of he new Apple stuff so the 6,1 is the way forward for me.



Of course, quoting myself... But I could always pay to replace the Logic board and change the RAM. I have asked Create Pro for a quote but realised they are closed till the morning. It feels ridiculous ploughing so much more into an 8 year old computer but if I can just get it behaving how it should and without crashing every 10 minutes, I'm more than happy to do so with what I have (and no doubt much cheaper than a new set up)... So, obviously if I'm buying new RAM, I might as well get a quote for 128gb. I hate doing things by halves.


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## stigc56 (Aug 10, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Of course, quoting myself... But I could always pay to replace the Logic board and change the RAM. I have asked Create Pro for a quote but realised they are closed till the morning. It feels ridiculous ploughing so much more into an 8 year old computer but if I can just get it behaving how it should and without crashing every 10 minutes, I'm more than happy to do so with what I have (and no doubt much cheaper than a new set up)... So, obviously if I'm buying new RAM, I might as well get a quote for 128gb. I hate doing things by halves.


In Danish we have a saying: "Don't throw good money at bad money". I had a similar setup as yours but decided to buy a Mac Pro 6.1 8 core and use my old 5.1 12core as a VEPro slave. Although it has only 8 cores the new 6.1 has quite a lot faster RAM and L3 cache which I believe makes a difference and communicates with my UA Apollo via Thunderbolt, and that is fast. So there are many things to consider! I once had to replace new Logic Board wow that was expensive!! Good Luck


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 10, 2017)

"Don't throw good money after bad" is also an expression here in the US.

But as I post all the time, 3.46GHz 12-core 5,1s with 64GB of RAM are now selling in the $1400 range on ebay. For example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-3-46Ghz-12-Core-MB535LL-A-CTO-64GB-RAM-1TB-HDD-nVidia-GT120-/222039342303?hash=item33b2937cdf:g:CuEAAOSw95FZZ~0E

I don't know how much it costs to repair that machine vs. buying one that works, but a new 6,1 is over $5000.

And in general the 5,1s are known to be reliable.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Oct 11, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> I upgraded from a silver Mac Pro 5.1 (12-core 2.93gHz) to the new cylinder Mac Pro 6.1 (12-core 2.7gHz) and it's a LOT faster for Logic, somehow. While normal operations like messing around in the Finder don't feel all that much faster, here's a couple of images that might be informative.
> 
> A buddy who has the same silver 12-core as I had (with SSD boot and audio drives) wanted to see if my cylinder was really any faster than the old faithful silver towers, so he made a test sequence for Logic X and sent it to me. The sequence is just a CPU stress test with a couple of dozen instances of Alchemy and Space Designer, and it loads his machine up almost to the top. I booted it up on my cylinder, with the same audio preferences and buffer size - the only difference was that his machine runs the Avid CoreAudio driver for his HDX card, and mine was running the MOTU driver for the 112d AVB interface. The CPU meters are shown below, with the cylinder on the left and the silver tower on the right:


It's been pretty much a year and I keep coming back to this thread and Charlie's post in particular.
I wonder @charlieclouser , if you had to buy now, would you still recommend the 12 core (using Logic) if the budget was there?
Or would the 8 core be the sweet spot considering the processing speed you speak of in another post in this thread.
Any advice much appreciated.


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