# Thoughts on OT Berlin Strings



## jononotbono (Feb 14, 2019)

ive been eyeing up Orchestral Tool’s Berlin Strings for quiet a while and thinking about buying them very soon.

Anyone got any thoughts about them? Are they RAM hungry? I’m thinking they will add a new flavour to my String aresenal (which is mainly Spitfire) and I love the sound of the demos I’ve heard of it. Very tempted!


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## jbuhler (Feb 14, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> ive been eyeing up Orchestral Tool’s Berlin Strings for quiet a while and thinking about buying them very soon.
> 
> Anyone got any thoughts about them? Are they RAM hungry? I’m thinking they will add a new flavour to my String aresenal (which is mainly Spitfire) and I love the sound of the demos I’ve heard of it. Very tempted!


They are very RAM hungry. I had to be judicious when I worked with them on a 32GB machine. I also find Berlin Strings to be very fussy to work with in terms of programming. They sound great, though, at the end. But because BS are RAM hungry and fussy I tend to work with SCS supplemented with SSS as my default strings.


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## OleJoergensen (Feb 14, 2019)

I only have Berlin strings expansion A and B. I mainly use the sustains and legato and they sound georgeous! The sound is a bit thin, compared to Spitfire symphonic strings, or a bit like one section divissi because of the amount of string palyers OT used when recording the samples. But it just gives something that SSS can’t.
I agree, they are Ram hungry especially when you hear the diffirent mic position- one is just not enough .


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 14, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> ive been eyeing up Orchestral Tool’s Berlin Strings for quiet a while and thinking about buying them very soon.
> 
> Anyone got any thoughts about them? Are they RAM hungry? I’m thinking they will add a new flavour to my String aresenal (which is mainly Spitfire) and I love the sound of the demos I’ve heard of it. Very tempted!



what kind of libraries do you have and what music do you write? I have bs + exp. almost since they came out and they are great, though..I still ask because just do recommendations without knowing your background and libraries you have allready I feel not give any useful thoughts.


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## Confuzzly (Feb 14, 2019)

Berlin strings is a great library. It is one of the most comprehensive in terms of content (especially with the expansions), and it plays quite well. 

Personally my favorite thing about them (and most of OT's stuff) is the flexibility of sound the mic positions give. Their close mics actually sound good to my ears. While not dry, they still sound close without sacrificing their sonic character. This makes it easy to layer the close mic in for a more intimate sound if I want it. This is something I always found difficult with the Spitfire libraries I own, as I tend to find their close mics harsh and/or unappealing.

The two main downsides I find are:

1) RAM usage: This is shared by all of OT's stuff. Capsule is nice, but it eats RAM. I am hoping the upcoming sample player will remedy this, but until it is released, or we get more info, I can only hope.

2) Section size: The section size of Berlin Strings is smaller; about half of a full size string section. It still sounds great, but there are definitely times where I am writing a score and I hit _that_ moment where I want a big, lush string sound, only to find that I can't coax it out of Berlin Strings alone. This can be frustrating. I would personally hand OT my credit card and tell them to charge whatever they want if they would release a full size version of Berlin Strings. Sadly, I don't think it will happen.

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would wait until the new sample player is released to decide. Not only would you be able to see if the RAM usage is reduced, but then you wouldn't have to learn a new library twice in a potentially short time since presumably the sample player will change the workflow quite a bit.


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## JohannesR (Feb 14, 2019)

My favorite string library.

+ Sounds great! Very focused sound because of the smaller ensemble sizes
+ The most agile string library I have. Great for string runs and adventurous writing
+ Very playable, especially the adaptive legato patches
+ Extremely detailed, gazillions of patches
+ Everything can be customized via CAPSULE. Truly great!
+ Extensive collection of mic positions

- Resource heavy - probably the cost of CAPSULE and the mic positions, so I don’t care
- Can be a tad thin, so you need to have an auxiliary library for those fat, lush strings moments
- The legato can be a tiny tiny tad clumsy at times compared to CSS, which is the smoothest in class, but now I’m really playing the devil’s advocate here!


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## muk (Feb 14, 2019)

During their sale last year I considered buying Berlin Strings. I decided not to in the end. Here is a thread with some good info, in case you haven't seen it yet:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/considering-berlin-strings.77154/


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## muziksculp (Feb 14, 2019)

Confuzzly said:


> 2) Section size: The section size of Berlin Strings is smaller; about half of a full size string section. It still sounds great, but there are definitely times where I am writing a score and I hit _that_ moment where I want a big, lush string sound, only to find that I can't coax it out of Berlin Strings alone. This can be frustrating. I would personally hand OT my credit card and tell them to charge whatever they want if they would release a full size version of Berlin Strings. Sadly, I don't think it will happen.



I agree. My wish would be to see Orchestral Tools develop a new large section strings library, with their new Sample Player for that more lush, big romantic, epic, ..etc. Strings Sound that we love to hear. 

Berlin Strings is one of the best sounding Strings Libraries available today, lots of articulations, and also expansion libraries for it, and all of the Berlin Series, will be ported to OT's new Sample Player system, which will offer better Legato functionality, and possibly other advantages that Kontakt was not able to deliver.


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## Vik (Feb 14, 2019)

The Berlin Strings section sizes are 8-6-5-5-4, which is pretty close to the ideal string library section size for me. And don't forget that while real orchestras never crossfade, sample library do that a lot. Often, when you hear a 8-6-5-5-4 library, you are listening to sections that are 16-12-10-10-8. If you want it larger, you can always layer with the sul tastos from the expansion kits, or with other libraries. I like SF stuff as well, but often find that SSS (16/14/12/10/8) is a bit to large for my needs, and that SCS (4/3/3/3/3) sometimes is too small. 

Btw, Berlin Strings seems to layer well with Spitfire Chamber Strings. There are also a couple of good Ensemble patches in Berlin String that one always could sneak in behind a section to make a mockup sound larger. 

Maybe they'll offer more expansion kits in the future? Real con sordinos would be great - and a set of divisi sections would also be useful. Not only as divisi sections, but also as something one users layer with the main library. It's not a perfect library (none are), but still one of my favourites.


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2019)

Thanks, there's a lot of good advice here! Think I will buy it in a couple of weeks. Loving everything I've heard with it so far. Impressed with how fast String parts can be programmed with it. Down to the smaller player count no doubt.


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## jbuhler (Feb 17, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> Impressed with how fast String parts can be programmed with it.


I actually find the opposite, that it takes longer to program the string parts than my other strings, though I can often achieve superior results. Though rereading your comment, I now wonder if perhaps you mean how well the library handles fast string figures, such as runs and turns. I find it to be hit or miss on that, tbh. Likewise the legato. The library does have a gorgeous sound.


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Though rereading your comment, I now wonder if perhaps you mean how well the library handles fast string figures, such as runs and turns. I find it to be hit or miss on that, tbh. Likewise the legato. The library does have a gorgeous sound.



Yeah, that's exactly what I mean't. Sorry for the confusion.


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## jamwerks (Feb 17, 2019)

Just some speculation here. Their Current Berlin Series will be ported to their upcoming player (this year). They'll keep recording their libraries at Teldex. They'll be doing a totally new line of generic Orchestral libraries with the new brass library being the Junkie XL one.

As for WW's, they were doing a redux of the Exp A and may have decided at that time to just start all over again for a totally new complete WW library (I'm hoping so anyway). Hoping for a complete WW section : Picc, Fl 1, Fl 2, Alto Fl, Bass Fl, Fl a3, OB 1, Ob 2, English horn, Ob a3, Cl in E-flat, Cl 1 in B-flat, Cl 2 in A, Bass Cl, Contrebass Cl, Cl a3, Bn 1, Bn 2, Cbn, Bn a3, Sop Sax, Alto Sax, Tenor Sax, Bari Sax. !! Hope they do it complete, might become the reference for the new 10 years (like VSL WW's have been for the last 10+ years).

For the new string library, I'm hoping they will do the sizes and placement that they've been using on Metropolus series (12 V1, 12 V2, 10 Violas, 8 Celli, 12 DB, with the V2's on the far right). That would really make it worth while then having the entire Berlin, Metropolus, & Newbe(?) series strings, that would all work well together, and complement each other. When porting Berlin Strings over to the new player, they'll probably do a few updates.

Here's to hoping!


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2019)

Ah yes! The new player. I actually haven’t read about that. What is it going to involve (any articles on it online?)? Think it will be sensible to wait till it’s in the new player actually.


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## JohannesR (Feb 17, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> As for WW's, they were doing a redux of the Exp A and may have decided at that time to just start all over again for a totally new complete WW library (I'm hoping so anyway).



I like a lot of what OT has to offer, but the BWW situation annoys the **** out of me. It’s the worst offender on the market when it comes to consistency. You have:

- The newly recorded instruments from BWW Revive
- The old recordings from BWW remixed to blend with Berlin Revive
- The Contrabassoon, Bass Clarinet straight out missing from BWW Revive, so you’re stuck with the drier original BWW recordings

Sorry, but that’s not work at professional level.

Sorry about the rant.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 17, 2019)

JohannesR said:


> I like a lot of what OT has to offer, but the BWW situation annoys the **** out of me. It’s the worst offender on the market when it comes to consistency. You have:
> 
> - The newly recorded instruments from BWW Revive
> - The old recordings from BWW remixed to blend with Berlin Revive
> ...


Yeah and the expansion wind instruments are very very average.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 17, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> As for WW's, they were doing a redux of the Exp A and may have decided at that time to just start all over again for a totally new complete WW library (I'm hoping so anyway).


It's worth noting that Orchestral Tools has mentioned that they are doing fixes to BWW Revive.


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## Casiquire (Feb 17, 2019)

Vik said:


> The Berlin Strings section sizes are 8-6-5-5-4, which is pretty close to the ideal string library section size for me. And don't forget that while real orchestras never crossfade, sample library do that a lot. Often, when you hear a 8-6-5-5-4 library, you are listening to sections that are 16-12-10-10-8. If you want it larger, you can always layer with the sul tastos from the expansion kits, or with other libraries. I like SF stuff as well, but often find that SSS (16/14/12/10/8) is a bit to large for my needs, and that SCS (4/3/3/3/3) sometimes is too small.
> 
> Btw, Berlin Strings seems to layer well with Spitfire Chamber Strings. There are also a couple of good Ensemble patches in Berlin String that one always could sneak in behind a section to make a mockup sound larger.
> 
> Maybe they'll offer more expansion kits in the future? Real con sordinos would be great - and a set of divisi sections would also be useful. Not only as divisi sections, but also as something one users layer with the main library. It's not a perfect library (none are), but still one of my favourites.



While you're correct mathematically, my experience is that sonically string crossfades really only get a little fuzzier, they don't sound like a change in the number of players. It's confusing to me because my original theory was that players react to one another differently and play differently in a large group than a small group, and I think that's true and a part of why the same library doubled up doesn't really sound like an ensemble of twice the players, but then there are some significant counter examples like LASS where he sections are recorded separately but do distinctly sound like more players when combined. Maybe it's more to do with the tone of different players and instruments? Sorry for the off-topic but I do find it an interesting paradox and to my ears BSt sounds like a smaller and more detailed ensemble, even during crossfades.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 25, 2019)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Yeah and the expansion wind instruments are very very average.


@SimonCharlesHanna -- Do you mean just BWW Expansion A specifically? Or the other expansions too?


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## galactic orange (Jun 25, 2019)

OleJoergensen said:


> I only have Berlin strings expansion A and B. I mainly use the sustains and legato and they sound georgeous! The sound is a bit thin, compared to Spitfire symphonic strings, or a bit like one section divissi because of the amount of string palyers OT used when recording the samples. But it just gives something that SSS can’t.
> I agree, they are Ram hungry especially when you hear the diffirent mic position- one is just not enough .


I’m looking at EXP A and EXP B while they’re on sale. They sound great, but I don’t have Berlin Strings Main. I do have CSS, SCS, and SStS. SCS offers lots of articulations like this already and sounds amazing. Would getting these expansions be redundant?


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## erica-grace (Jun 25, 2019)

Vik said:


> Often, when you hear a 8-6-5-5-4 library, you are listening to sections that are 16-12-10-10-8.



???


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jun 25, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> @SimonCharlesHanna -- Do you mean just BWW Expansion A specifically? Or the other expansions too?


Expansion A - I wouldn't purchase it in it's current state tbh. They're also not been "revived" so they aren't balanced against the new BWW (and the mics are different)

The solo instruments are gorgeous (Though I have some issues with the flute)


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## novaburst (Jun 25, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> They are very RAM hungry.



The new player may solve this,


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## galactic orange (Jun 25, 2019)

Acknowledging that BWW has its issues, does anybody find Berlin Strings EXP A and EXP B useful? They appear to have a solid set of articulations for sul tasto.


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## jbuhler (Jun 25, 2019)

novaburst said:


> The new player may solve this,


We really don't know anything about the new player.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jun 25, 2019)

galactic orange said:


> Acknowledging that BWW has its issues, does anybody find Berlin Strings EXP A and EXP B useful? They appear to have a solid set of articulations for sul tasto.


gorgeous sounding and very useful. In many ways the recordings and performances are better than the main lib imo


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 25, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> We really don't know anything about the new player.


Why do you say that?

They showed this as a feature, im not sure they would suddenly get cold feet on a feature that doesn't seem overly complicated in the first place


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## Ihnoc (Jun 25, 2019)

Regarding RAM usage, a lot of Orchestral Tool's instruments overhead is down to the amount of zones in each group (samples per microphone position) which contributes to Object Memory. If you're like me and only use a microphone position or two, you can remove these zones from their groups and re-save the instrument, often for a substantial RAM reduction.

Explanation here:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/reducing-berlin-series-instruments-memory-usage.77592/

Worth mentioning that Object Memory from zones in unused groups is, as far as I am aware, an issue outside of Orchestral Tool's instruments as well - it's just not as pronounced because other libraries don't have the same round robin, velocity layer and microphone breadth.


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## Vik (Jun 26, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> ???


An example: When you listen to a library with 8 violins you often hear twice as many instruments due to all the crossfading between dynamic layers. So, when you're in the middle of a crossfade between a recording of 8 violins playing mezzoforte and 8 violins playing fortissimo, you hear 16 violins – even if only 8 were recorded: you hear two different recordings of the same players at the same time.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 26, 2019)

Vik said:


> An example: When you listen to a library with 8 violins you often hear twice as many instruments due to all the crossfading between dynamic layers. So, when you're in the middle of a crossfade between a recording of 8 violins playing mezzoforte and 8 violins playing fortissimo, you hear 16 violins – even if only 8 were recorded: you hear two different recordings of the same players at the same time.


I'm not sure it's really perceived that way. 

likewise, if you use velocity and dynamic switching - you can eliminate that effect entirely, and it doesn't sound that way. 

if I use a 2d xfade between two sustains - and my dynamics are right between dynamic layers - it certainly doesn't sound like 16 contrabass.


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## Vik (Jun 26, 2019)

galactic orange said:


> I’m looking at EXP A and EXP B while they’re on sale. They sound great, but I don’t have Berlin Strings Main. I do have CSS, SCS, and SStS. SCS offers lots of articulations like this already and sounds amazing. Would getting these expansions be redundant?


The main strength of the EXP A and EXP B is in my opinion the sul tasto articulations, which has three dynamic layers (for the violin). CSS has no sul tasto, SCS has sul tasto with two dynamic violin layers, and four players.) 
The Berlin sul tastos sustains come in two different versions, with soft/immediate attack. The Berlin cello sul tasto has three dynamic layers (and 5 players), the SCS sul tasto cello has one dynamic level (and three players). These libraries also sound quote different from each other, so if you check demos/walkthroughs and need that Berlin sound, go for it – unless you can get something similar from SStS, I don't have that library so I can't compare). But I know several Berlin String owners who are at least as happy with the sound of the the expansion kit as they are with the main library. 



ProfoundSilence said:


> if I use a 2d xfade between two sustains - and my dynamics are right between dynamic layers - it certainly doesn't sound like 16 contrabass.


Hi, with the Berlin Sul tastos, it immediately sounds like more players once you go from only hearing the mp layer to hearing a mix of mp and f, and the same happens between p and mp. But I have the feeling that some libraries don't always crossfade when they say they crossfade; instead, it sometimes sounds like they add another layer on top of what you already hear (with some smart volume control happening in the background). 

I certainly don't know the technicalities behind this, but t often sounds to me that I hear more players than the advertised number of players, and can't find any other reason for that than the fact that when a crossfade is being made, we hear two different recordings at the same time. 
This means that with Spitfire Symphonic Strings, which has 16 V1s, we often hear 32 violins... and while there's a lot to like with SSS, the first feeling I got when buying Mural some years ago was that I should have bought a library with fewer players!  This has to do with taste, of course, but personally I think string instruments sound more like string instruments when there aren't too many of them.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 26, 2019)

except it doesn't actually work like that. I'm someone who usually champions the idea of divisi libraries for the reason of build up - but it simply doesn't work out like that. 

point: 2d xfade between two sustain patches - between 2 different dynamic layers - would result in 20 celli being heard. Does this sound anything like HZS 20 celli? And similiarly - 20 solo string samples really don't sound like an ensemble of 20 string players. 

I think crossfading between the berlin expansion and the main library is almost required to get the most of out the breadth of sounds you can make with it... but unlike solo instruments - these ensembles crossfade well.


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## Vik (Jun 26, 2019)

Hi again, I also have some thoughts about why it doesn't sound like a doubled number of strings even if we hear recordings of twice as many players in crossfade situations, and I also generally think that crossfading in Berlin Strings work well; it' a favourite library of mine. And yes, crossfading is a different story in solo instruments. However, I generally don't think BS sounds "thin" due to a too low number of instruments pr. section.

And, btw, there may be ways to crossfade without increasing number of instruments as well, eg. by – when creating an ensemble of 8 players – also add an 'under the hood' layer which chimes in when there are no crossfades... meaning that when listening to only mezzoforte, we would hear two layers of 4 instruments playing mf. And please don't ask me about how this should be done in detail: I have no answer to that anyway! 

The main limitation for me (for the main library) is that I miss a vibrato level under molto vib, and that I wish there was an easy way to to crossfade between vib levels without eg. opening two different instances of the same library and configure them as crossfadeable. In EXP A and B sul tastos this isn't a problem, because there is no molto vib and because these recordings are avoiding the most intense expressions anyway.


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## shawnsingh (Jun 26, 2019)

Does it work to layer the sul tasto and normal articulations to get something thicker and more lush sounding?


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 26, 2019)

If you read the last page, theres a video of crossfading between sul tasto/normal sustains/sul pont. That's probably the best way to use them.


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## shawnsingh (Jun 26, 2019)

Yeah I remember you explaining that, it was brilliant. My thought here was in reference to a few pages back, people feeling like the main library didn't have large enough section size for occasional needs.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 26, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> If you read the last page, theres a video of crossfading between sul tasto/normal sustains/sul pont. That's probably the best way to use them.


Could you post a link to the video? I don't see it on the last page.


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## jbuhler (Jun 26, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Why do you say that?
> 
> They showed this as a feature, im not sure they would suddenly get cold feet on a feature that doesn't seem overly complicated in the first place


We'll see. I'll be very happy if they can tame the RAM needs of their instruments. But the history of developing effective alternatives to Kontakt makes me skeptical about the whole proposition and it's likely to take them several years to have full on functionality that rivals Kontakt. Again, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 26, 2019)

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]that was the video, I could have sworn I posted it to this thread, but either way. [/COLOR]​
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]




jbuhler said:


> We'll see. I'll be very happy if they can tame the RAM needs of their instruments. But the history of developing effective alternatives to Kontakt makes me skeptical about the whole proposition and it's likely to take them several years to have full on functionality that rivals Kontakt. Again, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.



the biggest issue with ram usage is the zones for all the mics ect. 1.) because kontakt cant turn these off, and 2.) actually using multiple mics is a straight up multiplier for ram use from samples. 

1.) the OT sample player isn't designed to host wavetable synths, ect. Kontakt is a very broad purpose platform - and OT doesn't have to have features that aren't useful to it bloating it. 

2.) they literally showcased the process of mixing down a mic blend for ram consumption. 

they might not deliver, as spitfire didn't seem to have a great time... however - the library SF released with it also didn't do well, which might be a large portion of it. Play isn't the worst engine in the world, despite the flak it gets. Even halion player isn't that bad. Just because SF kind of bombed(pun intended) doesn't mean OT's will - and to even hold the opinion like that seems oddly defeatist given human history.[/COLOR]​


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## jbuhler (Jun 26, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> the biggest issue with ram usage is the zones for all the mics ect. 1.) because kontakt cant turn these off, and 2.) actually using multiple mics is a straight up multiplier for ram use from samples.
> 
> 1.) the OT sample player isn't designed to host wavetable synths, ect. Kontakt is a very broad purpose platform - and OT doesn't have to have features that aren't useful to it bloating it.
> 
> ...


It took Play how long to not suck? Spitfire player isn't horrible, but it doesn't yet have the same functionality of Kontakt even in basic usage—not even talking about wavetable synth, etc. Just given that history we shouldn't be surprised if it takes several iterations for OT to get its sample player right. We already know what OT's priorities are when forced to choose between comprehensiveness and conservation of computing resources. Their new player may allow them to defer that choice longer but I really don't see that changing when confronting a situation that requires a real trade off between competing priorities. 

I also haven't seen anything from OT about its sample player since it was announced. Maybe you have privileged information, maybe OT will defy the odds of software development and deliver exactly what they promised and more. But I very much doubt it. Best guess is people will be disappointed in missing features/strange feature implementation in the player and at how expensive the individual instruments turn out to be when purchased outside the library. In any case everything now is just speculation, and my skepticism will hopefully be proved wrong.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 26, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> It took Play how long to not suck? Spitfire player isn't horrible, but it doesn't yet have the same functionality of Kontakt even in basic usage—not even talking about wavetable synth, etc. Just given that history we shouldn't be surprised if it takes several iterations for OT to get its sample player right. We already know what OT's priorities are when forced to choose between comprehensiveness and conservation of computing resources. Their new player may allow them to defer that choice longer but I really don't see that changing when confronting a situation that requires a real trade off between competing priorities.
> 
> I also haven't seen anything from OT about its sample player since it was announced. Maybe you have privileged information, maybe OT will defy the odds of software development and deliver exactly what they promised and more. But I very much doubt it. Best guess is people will be disappointed in missing features/strange feature implementation in the player and at how expensive the individual instruments turn out to be when purchased outside the library. In any case everything now is just speculation, and my skepticism will hopefully be proved wrong.


would absolutely love insider info, I just assume its goals would be third priority, whereas I felt like SF built a player to stop paying NI and also make piracy harder. OT are more or less mock up oriented. plus they seem to be eyeing that piecemeal purchasing strategy, so it i don't think it's not without some monetary motivation. 

as it stands, OT has the best sampling without the best scripting, even if it's not bad - kontakt is kind of hurting it.


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## jbuhler (Jun 26, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> as it stands, OT has the best sampling without the best scripting, even if it's not bad - kontakt is kind of hurting it.


I agree with this and am sincerely hoping they will be able to solve the issues because I do like the sound of Berlin Strings and would like to use them more often. They have just proved difficult to work with if I want any other instruments loaded. (I haven't tried them since upgrading to 64GB, but I had to do a lot of freezing at 32GB, and that was just with the main BS library.) I also think sample players are harder to develop than it seems, so I have doubts OT will get it right on their first attempt. As I've said, I hope OT does manage to get it right immediately, but I don't think the odds are high, seeing how other companies have struggled.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 26, 2019)

I do find it surprising that OT doesn't offer (non-measured) string trills beyond HT/WT in their strings expansions. I guess you'd use the Symphonic Sphere, but the player count and setup isn't the same. Not a big deal, just a minor thing to note.


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## novaburst (Jun 27, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> We really don't know anything about the new player.


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## jbuhler (Jun 27, 2019)

novaburst said:


>



Yes, I've seen it. you have more confidence in promotional video than I do.


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## novaburst (Jun 27, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, I've seen it. you have more confidence in promotional video than I do.



Well it is kind of a wait and see, I do not have any OT library's, this demo looks to be ground breaking.


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## shawnsingh (Jun 27, 2019)

By the way, I'm curious if anyone knows. Was the development for Spitfire's player or for EWQL's Play done by in-house devs that are on their team long term, or were those players more like limited time contract work?

Is OT going to be doing this with an in-house dev team? It seemed like it from some videos I saw. That makes me more optimistic about its chances of success, like VSL's software. Even if they get off to a rocky start, with a dedicated in-house team, the long term prospects of this kind of sample player seem very positive.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 27, 2019)

novaburst said:


> Well it is kind of a wait and see, I do not have any OT library's, this demo looks to be ground breaking.



Well for me, I think the biggest factor is them having experience(and using the libraries themselves) and creating a sampler with the purpose of the exact business they run. They work with A list composers who use their stuff in their templates, they know the samples have everything they need to sound amazing - while also having scripting as well as resource limitations due to kontakt.

And then look at spitfire libraries, which despite a decent orchestral run, the bulk of their success stems from (and I don't mean this in an insulting way) gimmicky keyboard patches. Their instruments aren't really designed to be virtual representations of instruments, but rather laid out like nice sounding keyboard patches. SSO was a bit of a departure from that, but it's simply not how they use it, how they market it, and how they feel. It's a large catalogue of cool keyboard textures and their sampler is probably designed around that artsy evo stuff more than it is perfecting an exposed solo flute.

Hoping this sampler is a solution for OT rather than a hinderance.


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## jbuhler (Jun 27, 2019)

novaburst said:


> Well it is kind of a wait and see, I do not have any OT library's, this demo looks to be ground breaking.


If they can pull it off. I don't doubt that they'll get there eventually if they remain committed to it, and I like the ambition. But software development often takes much longer than anticipated and the lackluster record of companies making alternatives to Kontakt makes me think the task is far more complicated than it seems.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 27, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> If they can pull it off. I don't doubt that they'll get there eventually if they remain committed to it, and I like the ambition. But software development often takes much longer than anticipated and the lackluster record of companies making alternatives to Kontakt makes me think the task is far more complicated than it seems.




To be fair, I highly doubt any significant advancements will occur that suddenly make the samples from the berlin series outdated. Some extra samples would be nice in certain instruments, but all in all - it's all meticulously sampled material, that can be repackaged a billion times and still sound phenomenal. 

Same goes for a lot of these big name sample libraries... I'm pretty sure cinesamples and the SSO stuff could be completely overhauled and stay relevant for decades. 

VSL has trucked for quite some time despite not having the most appealing sound. 

and honestly EW's HWO is actually pretty darn good still.

Great instruments in great rooms with great mics will always sound great


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## jbuhler (Jun 27, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Hoping this sampler is a solution for OT rather than a hinderance.


Also, do they have sufficient income from their libraries to support this kind of software development over time? 



ProfoundSilence said:


> To be fair, I highly doubt any significant advancements will occur that suddenly make the samples from the berlin series outdated. Some extra samples would be nice in certain instruments, but all in all - it's all meticulously sampled material, that can be repackaged a billion times and still sound phenomenal.
> 
> Same goes for a lot of these big name sample libraries... I'm pretty sure cinesamples and the SSO stuff could be completely overhauled and stay relevant for decades.
> 
> ...


agreed about the samples. I'm referring specifically to the time and cost of software development for a sample player.


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## barteredbride (Jun 27, 2019)

If Berlin Strings (and other OT libraries) are migrating across to the new player, perhaps someone from @OrchestralTools could answer if the new player uses less RAM than Capsule/Kontakt?

I'm sure they must have done testing and so would know the figures.

What's the RAM usage loading up the basic multi patch (plus legato) of each section for V1 V2 Vi Celli and Basses?


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## novaburst (Jun 28, 2019)

My understanding though I could be wrong, is the library's will be broken up and the purchase of just bits or part of a library would be available, so for strings perhaps just a legato patch, or sustain patch, 

In this respect you can get lower ram use by purchasing parts of the library instead of the whole library. 

VSL does something similar, you can go for a half section Violins and viola with limited articulation, or a full section, 

As for the performance of the player it does seem to be offering some never seen before development the question is will this new improvement be ram and cpu hungry


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jun 28, 2019)

novaburst said:


> My understanding though I could be wrong, is the library's will be broken up and the purchase of just bits or part of a library would be available, so for strings perhaps just a legato patch, or sustain patch,
> 
> In this respect you can get lower ram use by purchasing parts of the library instead of the whole library.
> 
> ...



That's not really how "lower RAM usage" works  Of course if you load less stuff, you would use less RAM !

The question is more like "how much RAM a fully purged cello section would take" ? That is actually the worst part of OT with Kontakt today. This is something they really need to fix with the new player.


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## novaburst (Jun 28, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> That's not really how "lower RAM usage" works



Yes of course me and my crazy ideas


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## poshook (Dec 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> They are very RAM hungry. I had to be judicious when I worked with them on a 32GB machine. I also find Berlin Strings to be very fussy to work with in terms of programming. They sound great, though, at the end. But because BS are RAM hungry and fussy I tend to work with SCS supplemented with SSS as my default strings.


I have completely opposite experience. Working with SINE is a breeze. Very fast and intuitive workflow, I can set articulation sets I usually use fast and easily, consistency across articulations is second to none, dynamic range best I have ever heard, mic positions sound excellent, mono compatibility excellent, gorgeous emotional sound and fantastic playability. Loading instruments is slow, that is a fact, but memory footprint is very similar to other libraries I have (Spitfire SO, EWSO Diamond, 8Dio). CPU load insanely low.


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## prodigalson (Dec 18, 2021)

poshook said:


> I have completely opposite experience. Working with SINE is a breeze. Very fast and intuitive workflow, I can set articulation sets I usually use fast and easily, consistency across articulations is second to none, dynamic range best I have ever heard, mic positions sound excellent, mono compatibility excellent, gorgeous emotional sound and fantastic playability. Loading instruments is slow, that is a fact, but memory footprint is very similar to other libraries I have (Spitfire SO, EWSO Diamond, 8Dio). CPU load insanely low.


This thread is from 2019. They were talking about the Kontakt versions of these libraries before Sine available


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## jbuhler (Dec 18, 2021)

poshook said:


> I have completely opposite experience. Working with SINE is a breeze. Very fast and intuitive workflow, I can set articulation sets I usually use fast and easily, consistency across articulations is second to none, dynamic range best I have ever heard, mic positions sound excellent, mono compatibility excellent, gorgeous emotional sound and fantastic playability. Loading instruments is slow, that is a fact, but memory footprint is very similar to other libraries I have (Spitfire SO, EWSO Diamond, 8Dio). CPU load insanely low.


If only BS was available on Sine when I write that back in 2019! I mean really what’s the point of quoting something about my experience with BS on Kontakt as though I’m talking about Sine? Especially when everything I’ve written about BS is that I find it much better on Sine? 

Not that Sine is perfect. Not even close. Starting with the fact that it still crashes too often for too many people. Its purge function doesn’t work. It puts too much functionality in the little tabbed box on the lower right, polymap is nonsensical from every workflow perspective I’ve tried. You can’t midi assign the mics. The library tab is a disaster once you get more than about a half dozen libraries. The list goes on and on. But even with all those issues I prefer the Sine version of OT libraries to Kontakt ones. (But I also have not had persistent issues with Sine crashing. If I had those kinds of problems I would undoubtedly have a different view on this.)


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## Casiquire (Dec 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Not that Sine is perfect. Not even close. Starting with the fact that it still crashes too often for too many people. Its purge function doesn’t work. It puts too much functionality in the little tabbed box on the lower right, polymap is nonsensical from every workflow perspective I’ve tried. You can’t midi assign the mics. The library tab is a disaster once you get more than about a half dozen libraries. The list goes on and on. But even with all those issues I prefer the Sine version of OT libraries to Kontakt ones. (But I also have not had persistent issues with Sine crashing. If I had those kinds of problems I would undoubtedly brave a different view on this.)


This is the *perfect* summary of the situation let's just sticky it lol


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> If they can pull it off. I don't doubt that they'll get there eventually if they remain committed to it, and I like the ambition. But software development often takes much longer than anticipated and the lackluster record of companies making alternatives to Kontakt makes me think the task is far more complicated than it seems.


Well this was kind of prophetic.


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