# Fee for an independent film



## Rob Elliott (Mar 19, 2007)

Hi there (nice new section!!)


Have a film going into production (based on a short I scored last year that won at five festivals - 'best short and best music' awards).

The director and producer really wants me on the project team and are now asking what my fee will be (as high as possible o=< )


Seriously - they want to know what the fee would be 'up front' or on the 'backend'


Here are the details:


90 min feature 
Budget - 700-900K (1.0 million is more realistic IMO)
Action (karate)
Should be able to use mostly samples (will specifiy any live players needed is 'cost plus')


I am thinking that I will be on this project for 6-8 weeks. Although this project has a very talented production team - i don't see it blockbuster theatrical release (probably direct to DVD) - budget is just too low. Best case it gets picked up by fox searchlight, etc. - but trying to stay realistic.

My gut says a 'back end' fee should be at least 2.5-3 times higher than what ever I need for an up front fee. Or perhaps a hybrid (little up front - majority back end.)

Film making business is risky, but the story looks solid (actually written by a women which should humanize the genre of film and widen the potential demographics.)

What is your take on this? Any advice?


Rob


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 19, 2007)

Congratulations on the opportunity!

One thing you might do is watch some other Karate films and estimate how many minutes of music there will be. You can also look at the script and estimate the minutes of action vs. the minutes of drama/dialog. You might ask the director if they intend to underscore the dialog, or leave it exposed.

This doesn't tell you how much to ask for the project, but it might help you quantify things. It might also help in negotiations.

Best of luck to you and to the success of the film!


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 19, 2007)

Hi Jon,

Yea - for sure this is important as it takes a tad longer to underscore the action stuff. Best guess looking at the script and talking with the director there will be about 20-25 mins of 'action' out of the 90 minutes planned. Just best guess.

Thus the 6-8 weeks of work (again best guess). Of course I could approach it more minimalistic-- ala the Babel film score - save a lot of time and get tons of awards (sorry, I couldn't resist :wink: 0


Rob


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 19, 2007)

I'm not quite sure what the 'back end' is in this case. Are they offering to pay you more if they make more/bigger sales once the film is done? Keep in mind that you won't be making big money from royalties, as this is a small feature, not a tv series. 

My experience tells me that for a film with that kind of budget, you'd be very lucky to get 15G. I've a feeling that there'll be a lot of music to write. Try to get as much up front as possible. Also, see if you can work it out that you get 1/3 on signing, another 1/3 half-way, and the final third upon final delivery. Oh, and if you can get an extra third after that... o-[][]-o


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 19, 2007)

Ned,

Thanks for your feedback. I should have mentioned that I did some 'investors package' music for them - on spec (free) with the hopes of securing the gig. It worked - they loved the theme and will likely use it on the film. Kind of ties me in.


Here's my thinking. Let's says I charge 15-18K for an upfront payment (payable as you say - great idea).

Alternatively - I am thinking that 'if' I get the bulk of the payment once the film is completed and sold - that my fee in that case be much higher (since I'll be assuming the risk). I am thinking in that case - perhaps 5K up front - with 30K paid 'only' when sold.

That is my gut. I think I could get them to agree to this. Of course I could be working day and night for 6-8 weeks for 5K, but really feel good about this production and film (honestly can't say that in all but rare cases.) Most of these independent films have a MAJOR weakness somewhere. So far - nothing is glaring at this point. I've worked with many on the team before - very talented people. Of course it is the riskiest of businesses - film making >8o 


What do you think of my reasoning a proposed fee structure?


Rob


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## Mike Greene (Mar 19, 2007)

I've never gotten paid for films. They've always been for free for friends, so I don't know anything about budgets. But I do know these things rarely sell to bigger studios or make any real money on the back end. I understand the film doesn't appear to have weaknesses and it looks like it's gonna be great, but I've heard all that a million times before and seriously doubt you'd ever see the $30k backend. So I'd get all my money on the front end . . . without letting them know my pessimism.

With that said, if this were me, I'd be looking at this film as a rare shot at my big break. I know I just said it's a long shot, but even long shots don't come along very often.

Most of my gigs are nothing more than paychecks. Often very nice paychecks, but they will never amount to anything or help my resume. So when a project like yours comes along, I'm usually willing to gamble and sometimes even do them for free because in the off chance it hits, then all of a sudden I'd be a film composer with a nice credit in a business where credits are _everything._

Mind you, I'd still try to milk them for whatever I can get . . . upfront! But at the same time, I want to help make this film as good as possible, so if I need a string section, I may still pay for one myself even if they can't afford to reimburse me.

Just my thoughts.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 19, 2007)

Rob,

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## Rob Elliott (Mar 19, 2007)

Hi Mike and Ned,

Probably wise council. I think I'll bump the upfront money up to the 'minimum' I would work this hard for - $13K (with a back end payment of an additional $12K).

Alternatively perhaps I give them the option of upfront ONLY a lump sum of 18K.


Rob


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## mathis (Mar 19, 2007)

That sounds totally reasonable.
From the producers point of view that might still sound expensive though. Somehow I'm figuring out that they calculate 1 promille for the music budget, that would mean 10G in your case.


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## drasticmeasures (Mar 19, 2007)

15k - 18k (upfront creative fee) is pretty typical for this budget. I would say the general rule is about 1.5% of the films budget goes to music creative fees (not music production costs).
You also could request/demand to retain your publishing. 
If the schedule really is 6-8 weeks (that's a vacation these days), you could also insist on a non-exlusivity clause (only if they put it in there in the first place). Hope that helps.

I don't want to be negative, but I've never met anyone who took a 'deffered' payment deal that ever actually saw the money, even if the terms matured.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 19, 2007)

Nathan Furst @ 19/3/2007 said:


> I don't want to be negative, but I've never met anyone who took a 'deffered' payment deal that ever actually saw the money, even if the terms matured.



I once got almost half in deffered payment, a couple of yrs after the work was done. But I slept with the director*.








* my wife. /\~O


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 19, 2007)

Mathis - hear ya - in this case - just going to ask for me and see the response.

Nathan - good reminder on retaining publishing. What exactly do you mean on 'non-exclusivtivty'??

Many thanks.

Rob


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## synergy543 (Mar 19, 2007)

Nathan Furst @ Mon Mar 19 said:


> I don't want to be negative, but I've never met anyone who took a 'deffered' payment deal that ever actually saw the money, even if the terms matured.


I haven't worked in the film industry, but in the advertising industry in Japan, I "only" received deferred payments. And only once ever, did I ever not get paid - and only because the company went bankrupt. The larger companies alway took the longest to pay but we could always bank on the payment coming through.

The concept of trust and honor in the U.S seem different though and are only as good as the terms of a legally binding written contract. I would suggest you request money upfront or as installments throughout production and upon final delivery.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 19, 2007)

synergy543 @ Mon Mar 19 said:


> . . . in the advertising industry in Japan, I "only" received deferred payments.


This is a different "deferred payment" than you may be thinking. Rob's talking about a back end payment _if the movie makes it big._ Sort of like becoming an investor in the flick. It's not a matter of honesty, it's a matter of most movies in this league don't recoup, let alone make enough profit to pay all the people who invested or worked for cheap upfront.

But my experience is like yours: I also do a lot of TV and commercials and rarely get money (or even have contracts) upfront because things happen so quickly. But I don't worry because it's extremely rare that I get stiffed, even with American companies.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 19, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Mar 19 said:


> Nathan Furst @ 19/3/2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to be negative, but I've never met anyone who took a 'deffered' payment deal that ever actually saw the money, even if the terms matured.
> ...




Man - how did I miss that one Ned :shock: :wink:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 19, 2007)

BTW, non-exclusive means that you can use the music again in any future project.


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## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2007)

I'm with everyone else who said get the money upfront. 


Thing is, they can have every intention in the world of paying you a deferred payment. But at the end of the day they will account for everyone but you first. And they will probably still owe people money at that point. It's just not a good idea IMO.

Not to mention most films don't sell, or don't sell for much. It's tough to sell a film and get a good deal. Usually the filmmakers think it's better than it really is. 

I just did an investor test. I charged them though. F' doing stuff for free. :D (not sure if it's going to get made but apparently it got into some festivals. It's probably funded by drug money. :D Although not about drugs)

The only way I'd feel comfortable that I'd get paid deferred is if it were my movie. I'd trust my own skills more than I'd trust others. Seen far too many bad scripts... as well, far too many good scripts. 

BTW -- guys can write good characters with dimension/layers too. A bad script is bad just because many people who write scripts can't write, not because a dude wrote it. 8) 


Hope everything works out for ya, Rob... I'm sure it will. o-[][]-o 

Cheers,
J


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## drasticmeasures (Mar 19, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Mar 19 said:


> BTW, non-exclusive means that you can use the music again in any future project.



Actually, non-exclusivity clause means that you can work on other films/projects at the same time, while doing their film. I've found that it is a somewhat common request for "exclusivity", meaning that you are not legally allowed to work on other projects/films until that one has finished. However, unless their 'quote' supports that kind of request, I insist on non-exclusivity.

The idea of being able to freely use your music again is directly related to retaining the publishing rights. If you retain the publishing rights, you own the music.


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## drasticmeasures (Mar 19, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Mar 19 said:


> Nathan Furst @ 19/3/2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to be negative, but I've never met anyone who took a 'deffered' payment deal that ever actually saw the money, even if the terms matured.
> ...



I hope your agent didn't try to take commision...that could be awkward.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 20, 2007)

Nathan Furst @ Mon Mar 19 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Nathan Furst @ 19/3/2007 said:
> ...





ROFL :mrgreen:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 20, 2007)

Actually, my agent's a woman. /\~O


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## jeffc (Mar 20, 2007)

I just wanted to agree with everyone else here that 'Backend' is pretty much a myth for an indie film. I'd negotiate a decent fee - it would seem that they might offer as low as 5K to 10K for something like that, but try to get more. But realize that is probably the last nickel you will ever see from it. Unless it ends up on cable, the royalties are non-existant, nothing for DVD sales. Keeping publishing (or keeping 50% which seems to be popping up a lot these days) is good, but again probably not worth much $$ without TV play. And I don't know that I'd want to reuse a score from one film in another so the whole keeping the rights to the music doesn't amount to much. That being said, I'd get what you can and then do a killer job. Spend on a few musicians, a good mix engineer. Make it as good as you can, because I've realized there's no point saving a few $$ on something like this. If you're going to do it, you have to make it sound great. There's no point putting out someting with your name on it that's not great. It will do you no good on the off chance that someone sees the film and notices the music. I've done a bunch of these indie films that promise the world, we're going to get distributed by so and so, big backend, blah, blah. It rarely happens. At the end of the day, it's more about doing a good job and having people involved with the film think you're the greatest composer around. They will talk and hopefully recommend you on other things. That's kind of the way it works, to me. And once you're done with it, just move on. I've realized that these things take long - years sometimes, to have anything happen. Trying to find a distributor, film festivals, etc. They take time and you don't want to be sitting around worrying about that.....

Just my humble opinion, of course....


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## DCWAVE (Sep 23, 2007)

So how did this turn out, Rob?


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 24, 2007)

Dave,

True to the form of so many indies - this project is still not fully funded (but hopeful). The director continues to be a good client with lots of ad /corp vid work but was really looking forward to working on this feature.


Patience, grasshopper :lol: 



Rob


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