# Mahler Symphony No. 6 - 1st Movement



## Pzy-Clone (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi there.

Trying out some new things and new libraries, so i decided to do a mockup of this lovely piece, well...a few minutes of it anyway, ( since the 1st Movement alone is over 20 minutes) ...

http://www.box.net/shared/ogx2i675lubz8o3hkd0a

OR

http://soundcloud.com/pzy-clone/pzy_mah ... no-6_mov_1

I did try getting all the individual section voicings right, so when there is a 3 part harmony for instance..i used 3 different solo instruments, and when it switches to Unison or whatever...i switch to a ensemble unison patch, and so forth.


So it was a bit difficult to balance all the patches and libraries without loosing the overal section sound !

So there you go.
Feedback very welcome!


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## Alex Temple (Oct 4, 2011)

Nice work. I did a mockup of this a long time ago so I know how tough it is to have these chords sound weighty but clear at the same time... mostly a problem, as you alluded to, of not being able to replicate the divided ensemble numbers. That said, I think your brass sounds better on the chords than it does on the unisons. In most recordings I've heard, those descending staccato trombones really slice through everything else; same with the horns.

Would you mind telling us what libraries you are using?


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## toronjaasesina (Oct 4, 2011)

Which strings library did you use? it is not Lass I think, the mix sound very clear, congrats!


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## ozmorphasis (Oct 4, 2011)

Very nice! I too would be interested in hearing about your template for this. 

Did you add hall noise? sounds like it at the beginning and end. Nice touch!

For a tempo this fast (this is definitely on the fast end of the spectrum in terms of the various interpretations one hears) it would be helpful if there was a way to stretch certain passages in order to let the busy (but also very marcato) runs breathe a bit. For example at 1:12. I know it has to be subtle though. It's not an actual rubato or anything, just really making every note speak, which is so hard with samples.

Great job overall! I remember being equally impressed with Alex's work on the Mahler 5 demo for VSL. Very impressive!

Cheers,
O


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 5, 2011)

Hi, and thanx for taking the time to listen.

Alex, it would be interesting to hear your mockup, i never heard anyone else doing this piece, and it would be quite fascinating to hear your take on it, if you have it available online somewhere?

You are right about the brass, the trombones are a weak part of my setup, i do have some ideas on how to improve this, and i will have another go at it when i have some time, i think. 

The recording i used as a guide did have the Trombones cutting through, but i found that "just" increasing the levels did not work very well, it just upset the balance and the mix of the whole piece, somehow none of my libraries have that "upfront" sound, even at MF the trombones in this piece sounds very ballsy and loud, but they just stuck out as samples when i tried pushing them to the front .

That being said, i always make sure each section sounds well balanced on their own, it might very well be that i just need to boost ALL the brass a DB or so?

But the brass was not the only hard part about this piece, all those double, triple and even quadruple stops in the Violas and 2nd Violins...*Moans* 

Definitely a fast version, this is indeed. some would say too fast, but that is the 6th i came to love, so it got stuck in my head as being the "right" one.

Yes indeed, there is Hall noise, and there`s more noise in there as well, loads of noises in the strings , some time ago i also got some lovely keyclicks for the Woodwind sections and soloists, so i did a script that automates their playback, they are only triggered at certain speeds, intervals, never on repeating notes etc, and always at the release of a key, or in between long notes etc. Not that you hear them....mostly, but it all adds up, i think.

I also added some Spacial enhancers to the wet signal, to clear the center ( and consequential mud build up ) and push the verb out to the sides.
It was quite effective, imo.

Libraries...yeah, nothing fancy in here.
I haven`t been able to get any of the new gen string or brass libraries yet, i focus more on getting single good sampled instruments that i really like and which serves a specific purpose in my template, instead of entirely replacing everything with a new library every year.

So anyway: String are mostly VSL Appassionata with some added layers ( especially for the FF parts ) from Sonivox, String Essentials ( i always use the ambient patches..they are lovely! ) Some solo stuff, etc...but for the most part of the sound is VSL.

The rest of the orchestra is a mix of VSL ( my fav VSL Instrument is by far the Contrabass Clarinet....to bad no one ever wrote anything for it ), Westage, Sonivox, Eastwest, Project Sam, even some Kirk Hunter...basically mostly older libraries that i reprogram in kontakt, when possible. Probably other things as well, i forget..i keep a massive amount of things loaded in my template, so i cannot really recall what i did where, at all times. But i basically use VSL as my core sound, then layer and add other libs when needen, which is quite often...with VSL.
Well, not for percussion....that is never VSL.

Anyway, thanx for the comments! It really is a great piece of music, i might do the next 3-4 minutes of it some day soon as well, and work on the Brass a bit more


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## mwarsell (Oct 5, 2011)

This was amazing! Nice touch!


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 6, 2011)

Thank you sir!

It is odd...i am trying to use this very same template for some of my own stuff now, altho somehow it fails to sound as good as with Mahler...lol, ahh well...


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## Rob (Oct 6, 2011)

excellent work, Pzy! 
We seem to have a similar philosophy concerning libraries... 



> It is odd...i am trying to use this very same template for some of my own stuff now, altho somehow it fails to sound as good as with Mahler...lol, ahh well...Smile



:D :D


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 7, 2011)

Rob @ Thu Oct 06 said:


> excellent work, Pzy!
> We seem to have a similar philosophy concerning libraries...
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you Rob!
You know it is a bit surprising to me, actually..how well the strength of Mahler`s orchestration translates to the virtual realm: i would have thought that such a massive orchestra would sound cluttered, crowded and chaotic with samples, but it fell very quickly and effortlessly into place, even with a piece written for 17 Woodwinds, 16 brass players and a huge string section, all the unpleasantness of samples were somehow much less intrusive than i thought they would be.

Just shows how things like placing instruments in their optimal registers are still very relevant when working with samples, with some diminished potency, of course...but still...

Both inspirational and unbearably depressing at the same time


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## Rob (Oct 7, 2011)

Pzy-Clone @ 7th October 2011 said:


> ...
> Thank you Rob!
> You know it is a bit surprising to me, actually..how well the strength of Mahler`s orchestration translates to the virtual realm: i would have thought that such a massive orchestra would sound cluttered, crowded and chaotic with samples, but it fell very quickly and effortlessly into place, even with a piece written for 17 Woodwinds, 16 brass players and a huge string section, all the unpleasantness of samples were somehow much less intrusive than i thought they would be.
> 
> ...



this is so true... the art of orchestration is often highly underrated. What I always find inconceivable is how these composers were able to imagine how the orchestra would have sounded without a single sample library or sequencer at disposal :D


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2011)

Rob @ Fri Oct 07 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ 7th October 2011 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



+1

Pzy-Clone, you did a very good job here!


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## doubleattack (Oct 7, 2011)

askmusic @ Fri 07 Oct said:


> Rob @ Fri Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Pzy-Clone @ 7th October 2011 said:
> ...



With all respect, I think, they would like to have samples/sequencers. :wink: 

Mahler is wellknown for his repeated revises in his instrumentations and he never been totaly satisfied. And what an ironical world: The one and only thing what the critic admired at his work has been his skills in instrumentation - the compositions mostly flunked. 

Very interesting demo, Pzy-clone, would like to hear how it goes on! 
Thanks for sharing!


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## Vartio (Oct 7, 2011)

the strings sound lovely... IMO the clarity and agility is incredible. Also the winds sound great, but I feel that the brass would benefit from a little more bite.

Thanks for sharing!


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 8, 2011)

Thanx guys!

yeah brass is the weakest link, i should prolly get some of the new libraries soon, however, i am all out of free computational resources, so i keep avoid it ( It being Play).

Rob..oh, i dunno...it is not inconceivable, i think...., personally i have played in bands and such ( as in rocknroll bands...) my whole life and i think i can very quickly write a song for a band in my head without hearing a single note on any computer or from any musician, ...i know exactly how it will sound, or should sound...and what everyone should do. 

I see that kinda like the same thing, only with Mahler and his buds, a slightly bigger band, of course... 

And had they actually used VST`s to sort out their orchestration needs, i doubt they would have become the orchestration masters they were, there is simply too much bad writing and orchestration one can get away with virtually for it to ever be a real educational tool in that regard, it is waaay to forgiving and adaptable to ever really highlight your flaws in a sufficiently akward manner.

Becouse it is mostly flawed alltogether, based simply on the (lacking) qualities of a software library, it is hard or even impossible to differentiate what you are doing right from wrong in that reagard, imo.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 8, 2011)

Hi there,

very impressive work and achievement, really! If anything I would try to slightly rework some of the fast notes like in 0:19 but overall this is fun to listen to! Now I am waiting for your first symphony, mister :D 

Best regards
Hannes


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 16, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Sat Oct 08 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> very impressive work and achievement, really! If anything I would try to slightly rework some of the fast notes like in 0:19 but overall this is fun to listen to! Now I am waiting for your first symphony, mister :D
> 
> ...



Thank you Hannes, and i agree there are many things that should be reworked, and if i do continue on it, i will have a look at it.

Writing a symphony...oh well...even if i had the ability to do that, how does one find the time to do so, i wonder? 

Do they come as a phrase library ? 

Thanx for your input, i had fun doing this and i am glad it is fun to listen to as well


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## TGV (Oct 24, 2011)

Wow. That was pretty good. I have heard several versions, all slower, but the tempo is quite acceptable. The strings are amazing, and the whole sounds as natural as it gets. The sound is a bit light, though, but perhaps that's the brass, which seems a bit underpowered. Very good work.


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## antoniopandrade (Oct 25, 2011)

Posting this after hearing your other cue Pzy (the one with MARS). I think something you've achieved here, which is very impressive, but not so much in the other cue, is clarity. This does not sound like a classical recording, it sounds like a scoring stage recording. Everything is VERY clear and in a very defined space. The MARS demo is a bit fuzzy in regards to reverb, imo. How did you go about setting your reverb busses? I too use VSL and I think this is clarity is an advantage of using drier samples. On a final note, your strings sounds are really incredible. That's VSL Apass. + Sonivox? Cheers!


Antonio


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 25, 2011)

antoniopandrade @ Tue Oct 25 said:


> Posting this after hearing your other cue Pzy (the one with MARS). I think something you've achieved here, which is very impressive, but not so much in the other cue, is clarity. This does not sound like a classical recording, it sounds like a scoring stage recording. Everything is VERY clear and in a very defined space. The MARS demo is a bit fuzzy in regards to reverb, imo. How did you go about setting your reverb busses? I too use VSL and I think this is clarity is an advantage of using drier samples. On a final note, your strings sounds are really incredible. That's VSL Apass. + Sonivox? Cheers!
> 
> 
> Antonio



Hi, and thanx, yes it is Appass+Sonivox+String Essentials.

However, the difference is not in the reverb really...but in the orchestration, me against Mahler...lol, do i need to say anything further ?  

That is where the clarity comes from, that ...and the fact that i had a real recording to measure up against here, and mimick.

THat Mars cue is really overcrowded orchestration wise , i know...but they are really the same templates, so there is no reverb to blame, i am afraid ....

The reverb settings can best be described as a semi-insane patchwork of sends and busses, i do not think there would be much point in trying to explain it .

Thanx for listening


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## antoniopandrade (Oct 25, 2011)

Pzy, I mentioned it because I had similar issues when blending drier VSL samples with stuff recorded in big halls (i.e. Liberis, and other choir libraries, since they are mostly 'epic' in nature). Don't worry about freaking me out w/ your bus arrangement, my reverbs are pretty crazy in nature as well. I only asked because I'm thinking of completely overhauling this process, starting from scratch and going a much simpler route. I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that this craziness is actually helping my sound. One reason I love the sound QL spaces is exactly this simple clarity that it can bring to a recording.

Anyway, your orchestration is very good, and even if it's not Mahler, it shows that you're doing very well as iti is!


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## J van E (Oct 26, 2011)

Nice! I wanted to say why you have the violins at the right and the basses left, but luckily I found out just in time I was wearing my headphone the wrong way... Boy, would I've made a fool of myself if I hadn't noticed that in time...


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 28, 2011)

J van E @ Wed Oct 26 said:


> Nice! I wanted to say why you have the violins at the right and the basses left, but luckily I found out just in time I was wearing my headphone the wrong way... Boy, would I've made a fool of myself if I hadn't noticed that in time...



Indeed, now turn them back around, cuz you had it right the first time


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## rayinstirling (Oct 28, 2011)

I've come late to the party here but better late than never.

Very nice piece of work indeed. Thanks for sharing.


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