# Custom 88 Semi-Weighted Controller - Interested?



## mverta

So...

Since it doesn't exist, I need it, and I happen to know guys who can do it*, I'm designing a custom 88-key semi-weighted controller. There is absolutely no fantastic-feeling, solid, synth-key-profiled, aftertouch keybed being put out there - not by Fatar, or Roland, or Yamaha, or anyone. That's my primary goal. But of course, it needs a good array of wheels and sliders and buttons and pads and displays, as well. In truth, I have a lot of ideas (would love to hear yours, as well), and it's going to be fun.

But I also know I'm not the only one who desperately misses a "performer's controller" like this. So I thought I would mention it, take an interest poll. Perhaps if there's enough interest we can talk about doing a limited production run, or a crowdfunding thing; who knows. As much as I dig the idea of having the only one out there, I dig more the idea of helping musicians be musicians.


_Mike

*I just came off a year of working on the new Disneyworld Avatar/Pandora theme park, with a group of guys I've known for years. They've built tons of extremely cool, robust, and mechanically/technologically complex stuff not only for Disney but for corporations world-wide for decades. I've never seen them fail a challenge, and considering what we had to pull off for James Cameron this year, I'd say a keyboard controller is about a weekend's work. With state-of-the-art prototyping and manufacturing facilities, and a profoundly intuitive sense for managing costs while maintaining absolute quality, I can't imagine having a better resource to draw upon. I should have done this sooner. I was just sure somebody was already working on it. They aren't. And if you want something done right...


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## prodigalson

I will buy, hands down esp. if less than $2000


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## byzantium

Excellent. I'll start us off on some specs:
- Slim, i.e. not high, so it can fit in a slideable drawer under/in a desk.
- Faders for left hand, not middle, not right.
- No joysticks / sticky-uppity things.
- Bluetooth
- Not pushed about aftertouch.


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## mverta

I actually thought about the knobs/sliders/display stuff being pop-out modules so you can position them where you like them when not docked in the body, or to save on height space.


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## byzantium

Oooh nice idea! Thinking laterally...



mverta said:


> I actually thought about the knobs/sliders/display stuff being pop-out modules so you can position them where you like them when not docked in the body, or to save on height space.


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## autopilot

watching this with keen interest


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## musophrenic

mverta said:


> I actually thought about the knobs/sliders/display stuff being pop-out modules so you can position them where you like them when not docked in the body, or to save on height space.



Modular keyboard controller ... I think that kind of thinking is sorely lacking in the MIDI controller market.


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## musophrenic

@mverta I wonder whether there's a version of this that's fully weighted that would be possible? Or is semi-weighted specifically the thing you had in mind? Cause good piano action MIDI controllers are usually average at all the other MIDI stuff.


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## mverta

This is targeting a specific issue to me, which is that I really don't like playing expressive, legato VIs on hammer-feeling keybeds. I like there to be some push and bed at the bottom, ideally for aftertouch, and the thinner, rounded-edge keys allow for legit organ glisses and such. I mean, there's nothing stopping it from being weighted, it's just the main thing I can't find. And yes, the modular idea was nearly the first thing I thought of, because my son is left-handed. I wondered if perhaps he wouldn't rather have some controls on the right instead, or be able to move them around. Or perhaps plug-in an organ drawbar module. Or maybe you want all knobs. Or all sliders. Or all pads. If they're standardized, you can make your own configuration out of modules, is my thinking.


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## byzantium

Difficult to play drums and repeated and faster stuff on heavier keys, and the totally light keyboards are often too plastic-y and springy. Semi-weighted could be a good compromise to get a better feel and playability without the inertia of the 'heavier' keys.

Modular sounds like a good idea re controls. Some people may not want a whole lot of controls, others may want lots.
Choices of velocity curves. Consistent feel on every key. Consider no display at all or very small and not far back on the device for visibility (and not in the middle (or moveable). Consider possibly to make flat top space. 
Roland A-88 has flat top and uses piano key presses to change velocity curves etc, which actually isn't bad. Size and weight is good too. 

Another thing that controller makers don't consider is - their product is not used in isolation - the ergonomics of using a computer keyboard and mouse/other are not considered, and it is a tricky one to solve. Solving that would indeed be a holy grail.

The combined music keyboard plus computer control has to be thought of together as one ergonomic design. Certainly the modular idea could help / tap into that. Some people have qwerty keyboard on top, some have qwerty in front etc. Repetitive & muscular strain / sitting for long periods is an issue. Mouse location can be a problem. Also for much of the time we use computer keyboard and mouse far more than we use a piano keyboard. So consideration for being able to have different layouts would be great - e.g. a computer-use layout only - midi controller slides away, which is switchable to a piano-controller centric layout easily, but where computer controls are within each reach.
e.g. for right-handed people, computer keyboard in middle, mouse to right, faders to left.
And switchable for left-handed people.
Modular/flat would enable building in to custom desks also. 

Just some further thoughts.


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## Jdiggity1

byzantium said:


> ...the ergonomics of using a computer keyboard and mouse/other are not considered, and it is a tricky one to solve. Solving that would indeed be a holy grail.
> 
> Some people have qwerty keyboard on top, some have qwerty in front etc. Repetitive & muscular strain / sitting for long periods is an issue. Mouse location can be a problem. Also for much of the time we use computer keyboard and mouse far more than we use a piano keyboard. So consideration for being able to have different layouts would be great
> e.g. for right-handed people, computer keyboard in middle, mouse to right, faders to left.


I was going to make a similar comment. One of the reasons I've stuck with the SL880 is that it has so much space on top to sit my qwerty, mouse, and nanokontrol. Now, if the keyboard itself had a fader bank on the left, eliminating the need for the NanoKontrol, I'd be very very happy.
But then again, if I want a new controller enough, I'll restructure my layout and make it work if necessary.


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## sostenuto

A-88 cool ... most played it on Spectrasonics/Keyscape promo video. RD2000 apparently next gen, but pay a bunch for internal sounds ... of course positive MIDI functionality. 
Owned Grotrian 225 / Mason & Hamlin grands and spent far more over years in tuning and regulation. Virtually impossible to gain wide agreement here, as every pianist would surely request differing characteristics. 
Using Roland KR-577 now and RD2000 when something major fails.


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## Farkle

I'm in, Mike. I need something exactly as you described. As I was saying earlier, there was a certain feel to those dense Roland keyboards (Alpha Juno, D50, etc), that was very musical to play. Heavy feeling keys, but not heavy on the action. Able to do quick double and triple strokes on the same key ( I used to do that to do Rick Wakeman's solo on the ABWH bootleg, but will work well on triple tonguing).

Things that I think would be important:

1. Separate modwheel and pitch bend. THe single thing that's stopping me from getting a roland controller for VST's is that all in one modwheel/pitch bend. Great for synth playing, not useful for controlling orchestral VST;s.

2. Aftertouch. Using WIPS allows me to do vibrato as aftertouch (same as the old synths).

3. Don't need sooo many faders and knobs. Probably 4-6 faders, 4-6 panpots, in a good location so that I can quickly access them.

4. Not too high a vertical profile. Under 4", preferably. Streamlined, easy to fit into a sliding open/close keybed.

5. Agreed on the rounded keys for glisses/organ smears. Again, one of the reasons I loved the Roland.

I'd definitely prebuy, looking for a 999$ price tag or less. I think, without a weighted Fatar keybed, that shouldn't be too hard. The Impakt is 350$ give or take.

Thank you for driving this, Mike!

Another Mike


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## AdamAlake

How is this even a question? Hell, even without any extra controls, the answer would be yes.


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## musophrenic

mverta said:


> This is targeting a specific issue to me, which is that I really don't like playing expressive, legato VIs on hammer-feeling keybeds. I like there to be some push and bed at the bottom, ideally for aftertouch, and the thinner, rounded-edge keys allow for legit organ glisses and such. I mean, there's nothing stopping it from being weighted, it's just the main thing I can't find.



Ahhh gotcha! I get your thinking there, and probably agree with it in some respects. There's nothing decent between a light synth action and a hammer action in the realm of MIDI controllers without compromising somewhere.

EDIT: I agree in some respects here meaning in terms of some VIs for me would definitely benefit from that, and with those, I agree 100% with what you're thinking. 

I don't know if the edit solved or furthered my ambiguity, lol.


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## ranaprathap

I think a small profile light weight design would be a great feature to have, in addition to everything mentioned above.


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## mverta

My guess is it ain't gonna be lightweight, but I can't be sure. It's going to be built to last, and solid. Like things used to be. Anyway, I'm CAD'ing it now, so we'll see!


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## desert

Please don't make it look like cheap plastic. I swear most of them are light purple and it doesn't match my clean silver mac look. (1st world problems)

Modular knobs is a great idea too!


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## charlieclouser

I agree that it should be as low-profile as possible. I use the plastic-o-riffic M-Audio Keystation 88 because of the low profile, shallow depth, and complete lack of any thing in the middle that gets in the way of my Mac keyboard+trackball. The Keystation is so shallow that the entire case basically functions as a wrist rest, with the Mac keyboard actually sitting on the desk surface that's flush with the rear edge of the case.

Here's what I think crucial features for any new product would be:

- Low profile - 4 inches max, 3 inches is ideal.

- Ultra-shallow depth - 2 inches or so behind the keys max. Popsicle stick form factor.

- Chassis should be strong enough that it can bridge a gap while only being supported at the extreme ends. This lets you save a precious inch or so of knee room by having no actual surface beneath the center of the keyboard.

- Completely empty front panel from the second octave through the fifth - this is where the Mac keyboard goes.

- Three wheels - pitch bend, mod wheel, and an assignable third wheel that defaults to CC#11 (expression). I had a three-wheel synth a while back and this was great. Wheels MUST be mounted to the left of the keyboard in the usual position, NOT in that StudioLogic "above the keyboard" position, which is garbage.

- Three switch pedal inputs for sustain, soft, and sostenuto - with auto polarity sensing so you can use any pedal from nice to cheap-o.

- At least one continuous pedal input, preferably as many as three - also able to use a wide variety of pedals from Yamaha style to CV pedals. I never seem to have the right pedal on hand.

- Five-pin MIDI as well as USB for MIDI out. USB MIDI is not always ideal, nor is five-pin, so best to include both if possible.

- If there are faders, maybe separate one of them and mount it to the LEFT of the rest of them as this would be your most used fader, kind of like that third wheel, with another brick of eight or whatever above the bottom octave of keys.

- It would be super hot if the brick of 8 faders were motorized and conformed to MCU spec, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. If they were smooth, loose 100mm faders like on the Fader Ctrl box found on this forum, that would be great, as opposed to sticky, grippy 60mm faders like on Novation Launch Control etc. Problem with the 100mm faders (or any bank of faders for that matter) is that it increases the depth of the unit - it might be better to just go with three wheels and ditch the faders if they're going to make the thing as deep as it looks like it would be in my pictures with the Fader Ctrl sitting there. If the faders add that much to the depth, that means that now the computer keyboard and trackball / trackpad / mouse have to sit on top of the music keyboard's top panel, and the while thing starts to get big and heavy and deep. Maybe better to scrap the faders and go with three wheels or two wheels and one fader next to the wheels. I dunno.

- As to the empty space to the right of the empty computer keyboard area in the center, maybe that's where you put a row of eight assignable knobs. Like many others, I tend to like faders on the left, knobs on the right.

- If you want to please everybody, make the top panel shallow, but broken into four equal-sized sections that can be swapped around - and offer three options to fill the space: a bank of 8 short faders (60mm?), a bank of 8 knobs, and blank panels. That way people could just get four blank panels for a totally blank top panel, or three blanks with a fader bank on the left or right, or two blanks in the middle with faders on one side and knobs on the other. Obviously the center needs to be big enough for the computer keyboard and stuff, so that area is probably twice the size of the fader / knob panels that would go at either end - but if things were modular then some users might want to put knobs / faders in the middle (but I sure wouldn't).

- Transport controls might be nice, as long as they were MCU spec, with toggles for Click and Cycle as well as Rec / Play / Stop AND FF+RW. Under MCU mode, FF+RW with Cycle enabled can jump to next/previous marker. This is a GREAT feature on MCU controllers and boxes like Presonus FaderPort.

I'd happily pay $1k or more for such a box, and would buy three right off the bat if they keyboard felt good. I have no interest in some fully-weighted, hammer-action, sludgy action - I love the feel of the synth key beds used on Dave Smith synths and the smaller NI Komplete Kontrol units. Aftertouch would be nice, but is not critical for me.

Here's a couple of pictures of my Keystation setup with my new Fader Ctrl sitting on top - it will eventually be recessed into my desk surface like my trackball is - as soon as I break out the saw and black spray paint. Picture it mounted flush with the desk surface. In the third shot you can see how I recessed the trackball with the back edge tilted down - this totally eliminated any wrist stress, and is why I don't think you should try to accommodate a top surface for the computer keyboard and mouse etc. - there are just too many variables. Better to make the thing as shallow as possible and let the user deal with all the other stuff on whatever desk surface they have. Those guys who take the Doepfer LMK and build it permanently into their desks are on the right track.

For my money, this is the best ergonomics I've had in 30 years of trying to fit a music keyboard and the Mac keyboard and trackball in at a comfortable position for long-term typing. I vastly prefer having the music keyboard below the computer keyboard, and if the music keyboard is shallow and thin enough, then this works very well. I have no wrist, shoulder, or arm strain issues with this rig - and I'm a 53 year old who never stretches or exercises. You can see that the 2-3 inch depth of the top panel on my Keystation is just the right depth to function as a wrist rest when typing. I know I said M-Audio, but the picture shows an Alesis Q-99 logo - this is because the new M-Audio unit has janky transport buttons RIGHT where my right wrist needs to rest when using the trackball, so I bought a few Alesis units that did not have these transport buttons and just used the top panel from them while retaining the M-Audio guts, wheels, and key bed. The Alesis USB brain kept losing contact with the computer, but the M-Audio brain is fine.

Looking forward to what you might come up with!


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## mverta

I use the M-Audio, too, for this same reason and much of your post reads like my design list. The three wheels thing is a challenge because ergonomically I like to use the edge of the keyboard case as a grip and rest my hand on the corner for stability. Three wheels challenges the horizontal width there and makes for a "floating hand" thing which is fatiguing over time. But having those wheels be really solid precision controls is one of my top priorities and I'm working on the ergonomics of it. With the modular design I'm thinking of, if you want blank panels, fine; if you want a computer keyboard there, fine, but you can put the modules anywhere you want. And my initial proposal has them bluetoothed or cabled to the chassis so you can position them where you want when out of the dock. I considered having moving faders, but the more moving parts it has the more fragile it is and the more there is to break. But again, whether it's knobs or faders, every action is to be precision and robust without being fatiguing. And yes, this would be a solid beast. I'm thinking anodized metal or extremely dense ABS or similar. Rugged and roadworthy.


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## charlieclouser

mverta said:


> I use the M-Audio, too, for this same reason and much of your post reads like my design list. The three wheels thing is a challenge because ergonomically I like to use the edge of the keyboard case as a grip and rest my hand on the corner for stability. Three wheels challenges the horizontal width there and makes for a "floating hand" thing which is fatiguing over time. But having those wheels be really solid precision controls is one of my top priorities and I'm working on the ergonomics of it. With the modular design I'm thinking of, if you want blank panels, fine; if you want a computer keyboard there, fine, but you can put the modules anywhere you want. And my initial proposal has them bluetoothed or cabled to the chassis so you can position them where you want when out of the dock. I considered having moving faders, but the more moving parts it has the more fragile it is and the more there is to break. But again, whether it's knobs or faders, every action is to be precision and robust without being fatiguing. And yes, this would be a solid beast. I'm thinking anodized metal or extremely dense ABS or similar. Rugged and roadworthy.



I like what I'm hearing! I agree that three wheels can be troublesome from an ergonomic standpoint, but as long as the thought is out there for consideration, I'll be happy with whatever you wind up with. Having the ability to control mod wheel and expression (CC#11) at the same time with the same hand is pretty important, so maybe it's two wheels and a CC#11 fader right next to the mod wheel? Dunno.

Moving faders are probably more hassle than they're worth, I agree with you there. Too many variables and fragile moving parts.

I like the idea of a modular top panel for sure. As long as the blanking panels don't have any annoying sharp edges that your wrists will snag on! I'd considered getting a NI Komplete Kontrol 88 and disassembling it to move the knobs+display panel over to the right - but I hate the heavy keyboard action so that plan is dead - but the concept is valid.

If you do make the thing deep enough to hold the computer keyboard + trackball / mouse / trackpad on the top panel, then you'd have plenty of depth to use big, slippery 100mm faders like on the Fader Ctrl / JL Cooper FaderMaster Pro - which lots of us seem to like more than the shorter, grippier faders on the Peavey PC-1600 or Novation Launch Control XL. In my pictures you can see that the top edge of the long faders wind up right where the top edge of the computer keyboard is, so that works - but makes the whole thing BIG and DEEP. Fader choice is a matter of personal preference though, and I don't know if a true consensus has been reached as to which )60mm / 100mm) is definitively better. If you did use little shorty faders, then perhaps the housing could still be slim and "popsicle stick" style like my cheesy M-Audio Keystation / Alesis Q-88 which I love for their size. But I will say that trying to use that single 60mm fader above the mod wheel on the M-Audio for expression is.... not great. 

The Doepfer LMK4 had a pretty cool layout for the left hand controls - two wheels, two faders, and a knob - but the positioning was not ideal. The faders / knob should have been right next to the wheels - but this was "almost" enough left hand controls. Having a fader for CC#11 right next to the mod wheel would be pretty great.

One thing that I would do with the Roland RS-9 that I used to use as a controller, and which you can sort of do with the LMK4, is use those buttons as key switches. How cool would it be to have 12 or more illuminated buttons in that left hand section that acted as key switches? They just need to send a programmable note-on event, with momentary or latching modes, and even if they're in momentary mode, their LED should stay lit until another one is pressed. HOW FREAKING COOL WOULD THAT BE OMG I AM A GENIUS. Not that I use or approve of key switches, but maybe the guys who do would like something like this - it would probably be better than doing it on the normal keyboard. Maybe iPads have made something like this obsolete, but I'm just spit balling here.

For me, having the ability to get the back edge of the Kensington Expert Mouse recessed is VERY important to prevent wrist fatigue - like the trackball on the SSL Duality, which uses a Kensington OEM mechanism that's permanently mounted flush with the top panel, "flat" instead of "slanted". I think trackball users like me are in the minority, but..... that angle is crucial. Trackpad or mouse guys won't care, but my wrists sure will! If your controller's top surface functions as the "desk top" for the computer keyboard + pointing device, I'll be sawing a hole in it for my Expert Mouse to sink into! I've tried all of the other trackballs, Logitechs, the Slim Blade, ALL OF THEM! But after 25+ years the Expert Mouse is still my jam and I'll cling to that thing until I die.


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## Michael Antrum

This would be of great interest - I currently use my Nord Stage 2EX as my main keybed with a Kontrol S61 providing when you don't want a hammer action.

Doesn't Korg use a suitable keybed in the new Kronos LS.

I love the idea of having modules you can move around for Midi CC's. Somewhere for a compact keyboard and mouse. Perhaps somewhere for a pencil or two and to rest some manuscript. Perhaps a built in USB hub for dongles - perhaps lockable. Built in cable tidy.

Oh, and this one's for Mike.

Cup/Glass Holder


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## Rasmus Hartvig

byzantium said:


> - Bluetooth



For what?


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## Pietro

I'd be interested in something well built, but simple. I've been using Keystation 88ES for years and there isn't a proper replacement for it. What I'm missing with it, is an extra expression wheel. Also the build quality is rather poor.

- Piotr


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## NYC Composer

Does anyone really need pads? With a few major exceptions, I like my Arturia Keylab 88 which is both light and solid, but I never use the pads.

A bigger display would help, and personally I hate multi function buttons, but I suppose we're stuck with those these days. Less would be better.


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## mc_deli

Smallest format possible. No need for extra pads or faders here. Just wheels. And dedicated octave up/down buttons on anything under 88.

I want Studiologic type but smallest format possible and with rock solid reliability, especially from any software. No screen to fail please. All config on PC (Mac/Win).

Row of assignable buttons is a great idea. I have 16 small buttons on my MPC 232 (designed for sequencing) just above my keyboard in the best ergonomic position but Akai didn't make them assignable so they are useless:(


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## Markus Kohlprath

To me the emphasis should be on accurate response and solidity. This is where most hardware lacks most and still is far away from the feel you get from high quality real musical instruments. Low key noise should be considered too but with semi weighted it might be easier to achieve. This is something I don't like with the doepfer. Modular faders is a great idea I think.
I think something like this is really needed by serious musicians.
All in all I'm in for sure if the price is around 1k. But I know high quality isn't for free.


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## byzantium

Agree with Charlie's points especially the one I forgot to mention - strong and self-supporting so you can get those vital extra inch for your knees underneath. Wheels and faders would preferably not be built in to the unit, wired or bluetooth would give more flexibility as you can place where you like on top of unit or on top of desk behind. Another idea might be a slide-able lid so you can cover the keys so you bring the computer keyboard and mouse even closer for long periods of editing and mixing. Check out the Roland A-88 design physically (apart from the controls) I think it ticks a lot of boxes - very strong materials (seems like a cross between metal and plastic!), low-profile height, shallow depth, and still pretty light.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Pietro said:


> I'd be interested in something well built, but simple. I've been using Keystation 88ES for years and there isn't a proper replacement for it. What I'm missing with it, is an extra expression wheel. Also the build quality is rather poor.
> 
> - Piotr



Rather poor? What do you expect from a 160 - 200 Dollar Keyboard..dude..for that price keyboard is well made.


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## Rasmus Hartvig

byzantium said:


> Wheels and faders would preferably not be built in to the unit, wired or bluetooth would give more flexibility as you can place where you like on top of unit or on top of desk behind.


Really like the modular idea, but Bluetooth simply won't cut it, due to the latency it introduces. It doesn't seem like there's a way around going wired (or docked to the controller).


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## Ashermusic

I simply don't need it. I have a weighted keyboard that is very good feeling that can be adjusted to be from very heavy to light, a non-weighted keyboard and the FaderControl so I can do cc1 and cc11 simultaneously.


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## Farkle

Charlie brought up a couple of points that I forgot, but think would be spot on necessary.

Another vote for a traditional 5-pin MIDI Out (MIDI in, for me, is optional). I run my M Audio (same unit as Charlie's, rock on) directly into my RME as 5 pin MIDI. I want as little USB activity as possible on my rig.

Another vote for no "drum pads", that's what the keyboard is for!  And, I like the idea of smaller'ish buttons that can function as MIDI send messages; programmable, of course. Keyswitches, sending different controls to Kontakt, etc. Something similar in size to the Maudio buttons Charlie and I have.

Man, those pitch bend and mod wheels need to be rock solid with sending midi data, no jumps in the signals, no "dead" spots. 

As always, Mike, it won't be able to do everything, so finding the important 80% and crafting the hell out of that will probably make this piece of equipment sail off of the shelves, so to speak. The other 20% will probably be the stuff you find most important, and will definitely please the users.

Let us know how we can help! 

Mike


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## Jeremy Spencer

IMO, there are a ton of great controllers out there already, but good on you for the initiative. The Nektar Impact LX88+ is pretty much everything you described (minus the aftertouch).


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## byzantium

Wolfie2112 said:


> IMO The Nektar Impact LX88+ is pretty much everything you described (minus the aftertouch).



Yes it's extremely good for the price, possibly unbeatable, but IMO it's also minus a high quality key feel, key consistency (there are black/white key differences), wheel & fader feel/length, sturdiness, build quality, flat top and modularity if you want those.


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## Michael Antrum

I had a Nektar Panorama P6 - I sold it on pretty quickly - I couldn't get on with the difference in feel between the black and white keys. Is the LX the same ?

Honestly most of these modern controllers feel really cheap when you handle them. If you compare them to the keybeds in old synths like the XP80/DX7 etc they feel a bit poundshop.


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## mverta

There is not one controller on the market that feels like a serious instrument; not by a mile, which is why I'm building this. I find it interesting but not surprising that my design goals are echoed by so many here!


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## Jeremy Spencer

Yeah, good points...nothing like the build of old synths. My Ensoniq's were SOLID. Way to heavy for my slide-out tray on my desk though. Regarding the LX, there is no difference between black and white keys now. But I agree, the build isn't solid like the OP is planning, and I would prefer a better LCD screen. But, I also don't want to shell out a small fortune for a controller.


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## byzantium

Which means you're probably on to a good thing. I don't know why other manufacturers haven't been listening. (I guess the 'pro' market is pretty small relative to stage pianos, and digital pianos and cheaper stuff for home). However, I think the biggest issues for you will not be the design but logistics, any kind of scale, sourcing, manufacturing, storage, distribution, retail, etc, and keeping costs and time down. Of course an option for you would be to sell on a built and proven design and an interested customer base to one of the existing guys.


mverta said:


> There is not one controller on the market that feels like a serious instrument; not by a mile, which is why I'm building this. I find it interesting but not surprising that my design goals are echoed by so many here!


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## Jeremy Spencer

I think the two biggest cost factors will be the costs to build the prototype (and patent), and marketing. Probably at least $50K+ to have it designed and built; to the point where a pro would consider buying it. I suppose you could always bring the design to a big name and sell the patent....that way they would be able to back the manufacturing.


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## mverta

There is no controller on the market like this because there is almost no emphasis on being a player these days. What are you going to do, be a session musician? Playing commercials gigs all day? I got my last commercial call something like 20 years ago. Hell, I recently stopped by the Guitar Center I used to work at in the early 90's (Lawndale 118!) and it was a ghost town. On a Saturday. At 1pm. Fuckin' sad in my opinion, but whatever. 

I'm building this for me, I just suspect a lot of people would dig it. Having been involved in product design for a long time, I'm painfully aware of the fact, and have watched great products crapped out in efforts to make them Chinese-mass-production-friendly. You sort of have to make a philosophical choice at the beginning: Quality or Profit. It's not actually that black-and-white but it helps to get your mindset in the right place. I'm not interested in becoming a controller company; I'm interested in making the controller I don't have and need, and I value great design, solid craftsmanship and reliability over all else. Anyway, stay tuned. I'm working on the left-hand array, which I call the Orb. I think you'll dig it.


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## byzantium

Yep, get that philosophy. It sounds a bit unclear at the moment though (possibly necessarily) whether you are planning to, or whether it will eventually be feasible to, gear up to manufacture and distribute for others, and what kind of numbers and cycle times might be feasible. I guess maybe you will have to wait and see how the first model pans out, what the costs involved are, and how manufacturable it might be for others, and what the selling price might need to be to make it worthwhile etc. Wishing you the best of luck with it.


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## mverta

If enough people are interested then I will figure out absolutely how to get it to people, but that's different than trying to make an affordable commercial product. I'm trying to make the best product. I asked people in the poll about their price break so I can gauge ahead of time how people value these sorts of things. This way if there's something in the sourcing or in the materials which I'm not absolutely married to and doesn't affect the performance quality but would suddenly change it from being affordable to not affordable for people then I would be inclined to make it affordable. I really would like everybody to have access to a great controller. But it's first and foremost got to be a great controller.


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## AlexRuger

Just throwing my hat into the ring here to say that I too would be in.

I've been thinking about a modular controller for a long time, actually (my idea was to be able to slide the modules around on screw them down, kind of like Eurorack; or, if possible, hold them on with magnets). 

I hope that you'd consider making the wheel section modular as well--I absolutely hate wheels, never use them. I can't be alone in feeling like my control is at least twice as bad on a wheel as it is on a good fader (and I already have the great faders in my FaderMaster Pro). 

If it were a compact, well-built keyboard with action that feels good for both piano and synths (the holy grail) while still being adequately weighted with no mushiness and with polyphonic aftertouch, with no extra shit on it unless I want it there (basically a better version of the Doepfer but with the option of adding more faders/wheels/etc), then yeah, I'd happily pay $2k for that and would sing my praises about it from a mountaintop.


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## zolhof

charlieclouser said:


> For my money, this is the best ergonomics I've had in 30 years of trying to fit a music keyboard and the Mac keyboard and trackball in at a comfortable position for long-term typing.



Hi Charlie, I guess we can all relate to that never ending search for the best ergonomics. I've developed back/neck problems due to neglecting my body and working long hours in a bad posture and stupid sitting habits. I had to rethink my battle station so everything is within natural and relaxed arm reach. I barely touch the qwerty keyboard these days. All my key commands are programmed on the Novation or Metagrid. When I'm not playing, my left hand sits on the Novation, the right hand keeps swapping between mouse and iPad, plus a pedalboard for convenient keyswitching. It's fast, intuitive and most importantly, painless. Unless I'm tracking or piano practicing, the Akai mini is exclusively for patch audition or midi editing, so I don't need to keep my main keyboard turned on all day long (gotta save on that energy bill haha).

Here's the view:
_potato phone alert_










It's working great, but I'd love to have a single-ergo-modular-solution, so I'm keeping my eye on this thread!


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## Farkle

mverta said:


> If enough people are interested then I will figure out absolutely how to get it to people, but that's different than trying to make an affordable commercial product. I'm trying to make the best product. I asked people in the poll about their price break so I can gauge ahead of time how people value these sorts of things. This way if there's something in the sourcing or in the materials which I'm not absolutely married to and doesn't affect the performance quality but would suddenly change it from being affordable to not affordable for people then I would be inclined to make it affordable. I really would like everybody to have access to a great controller. But it's first and foremost got to be a great controller.



Agreed, Mike, and I totally understand the idea of "build it once, build it right". It has to be a great controller.

My thought is, once you start getting to a 1500, 2000 dollar price point, then I start looking at Kawai 88 key controllers, Roland RD 2000 controllers, etc. Now, I know that those are full piano action, rather than semi weighted, but my thought was, putting the controller at 1000-1200 puts it at a value point (hopefully) where it's price for function ratio screams no-brainer.

That's my thought on it, and as always, I'm just one guy with an opinion. And, this is all somewhat conjecture until you start spec'ing out the top needs, and see what kind of price point you're coming up with. But, food for thought...

Mike


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## wst3

mverta said:


> There is no controller on the market like this because there is almost no emphasis on being a player these days.<snip>



This is a problem, and it doesn't appear to be getting better. I think it is pretty cool that you have the means to design and build this, and I hope (for your sanity) you don't become a controller company!



mverta said:


> <snip>You sort of have to make a philosophical choice at the beginning: Quality or Profit. It's not actually that black-and-white but it helps to get your mindset in the right place.


It is possible to choose to build a quality product in the US and still be successful. Probably not as successful as the folks building stuff in China, especially knock-offs! It requires an idea that is unique enough that it won't be copied well for some time. But it can happen. And the cost difference, at least for initial quantities, is not as great as I would have expected.

To be fair, it is also possible to build quality products in China. One of my favorite StompBox makers is Pigtronix, and it was part of their initial business plan to do the manufacturing in China. They planned for it, and thus far it is working out quite well. I should probably point out that their pedals are no cheaper than any other boutique class pedals. Hopefully that means their margins are a little better?



mverta said:


> I'm working on the left-hand array, which I call the Orb. I think you'll dig it.


I like the name!


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## Pietro

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Rather poor? What do you expect from a 160 - 200 Dollar Keyboard..dude..for that price keyboard is well made.



Should there be no $1000 alternative with similar functionality? I know K88 ES is a cheap one, but I fail to see the point, dude.


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## charlieclouser

mverta said:


> If enough people are interested then I will figure out absolutely how to get it to people, but that's different than trying to make an affordable commercial product. I'm trying to make the best product. I asked people in the poll about their price break so I can gauge ahead of time how people value these sorts of things. This way if there's something in the sourcing or in the materials which I'm not absolutely married to and doesn't affect the performance quality but would suddenly change it from being affordable to not affordable for people then I would be inclined to make it affordable. I really would like everybody to have access to a great controller. But it's first and foremost got to be a great controller.



Not to be "that guy", but price doesn't really matter all that much to me. It's not like any of us are buying the centerpiece of our darn studio every few months - this is a once-every-few-years type of purchase, so if it were $2k or $3k or whatever then I'd still be in. I don't use the M-Audio Keystation because they're cheap, but because the keyboard action, form factor, and ergonomics are what I wanted. Cheap is just a bonus!

Your master keyboard is like a mattress - spend what it takes to get a good one, because you'll be spending a third of your life on the darn thing!


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## charlieclouser

You might even be able to save lots of time, hassle, and circuit board / software development time by using off-the-shelf stuff like Doepfer's "DIY" boards that let you just connect keyboard mechanisms and arrays of knobs, faders, and switches to them for direct MIDI output. Or, heck - buy two dozen Keystation 88es and throw away the crap keyboard and case and just use their circuit boards to get MIDI+USB output from a better key mechanism that you stick in an awesome new case, with faders and knobs by Corey of Fader Ctrl fame. I'd have no problem using some Frankenstein'ed thing like this.

Key switch buttons with momentary MIDI note events AND latching LEDs could be pretty sweet. At one point I was using a Roland RS-9 as my master, and it had eight very beautiful and tough buttons right in the middle - these could call up eight of your favorite "performance patches", and MIDI out channel was stored as part of each performance patch. So what I did is make eight performance patches, with patch #1 outputting MIDI channel 1, patch #2 on channel 2, etc. Then I would set up my multi-articulation orchestral patches to have articulation #1 on MIDI channel 1, etc. Then I could use the big buttons on the front of the RS-9 to select which articulation I was playing. There were some advantages to this, namely:

- The buttons were always lit to indicate what articulation I would hear if I played the keyboard.

- A multi-MIDI-channel track in the DAW was actually easier for me to deal with than "back tracing" key switches to determine what notes played with which articulation. Most DAWs let you record/edit/view multiple MIDI channels in a single track, with color coding to differentiate the channels. This was actually easier for me to deal with than normal keyswitches. 

- Each individual note could be re-articulated by just changing its MIDI channel in the DAW edit windows, and you could double notes to play "stacked" articulations as needed, for instance to get the "staccato overlay" effect on legato passages, layer con sordino on top of tremolos, etc.

The drawback of this approach is that you use up MIDI channels quite quickly, needing a whole MIDI "port" for each multi-articulation patch where you'd only need a single MIDI channel when using key switches. With big templates on GigaSampler or Logic's AUv2 spec with limited MIDI ports, this is no good - but for Cubase+VEPro guys or Logic+VEPro+AUv3 (whenever that happens) it's less of an issue.

So I'm all for key switch buttons and/or "channel switch" buttons - as long as they have nice, big, bright, latching LEDs... maybe even with user-definable colors?


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## EvilDragon

charlieclouser said:


> Wheels MUST be mounted to the left of the keyboard in the usual position, NOT in that StudioLogic "above the keyboard" position, which is garbage.



Having used a keyboard that has wheels above the keyboard (Korg X5D) and then upgrading to a much bigger workhorse (Kurzweil PC3K8), I will respectfully disagree. Having the wheels above provides much better support during bending while also conveniently saving up on the width of the board - this especially becoming a problem the more keys the board has. So a board with more keys but wheels above (example: Kurzweil Forte 7) would be perfect.

Then again, I am absolutely not in the market for a semi-weighted board. Saving my pennies for Roland RD-2000, which simply has a stupendously great keyboard action (minus the aftertouch unfortunately, but I seek to solve that one by getting a Roli Rise 49)!



charlieclouser said:


> Key switch buttons with momentary MIDI note events AND latching LEDs could be pretty sweet.



I would probably say going for a fully programmable touchscreen surface instead (something Lemur compatible, say?) would be even better.


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## charlieclouser

Dragon - you're probably right that just sticking an iPad (or dedicated touchscreen interface) in there would be a quicker and easier way to get a crazy amount of user control in a small area, but I keep coming back to preferring hardware buttons, knobs, and faders over touchscreens as performance controllers, simply because I can then operate "by feel" without needing to look over at the touchscreen to insure that I'm hitting the right button/fader/whatever. I need my eyes on the keyboard, or many wrong notes will occur! That's why I still use stuff like the Fader Ctrl or the Launch Control XL - the big rubber buttons on the Launch Control are very tactile and you can rest your finger in the gaps between them and sort of find the one you want by muscle memory / reflex / instinct.

So a ham-fingered guy like me will generally shy away from touchscreen stuff for use in the heat of battle.


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## Jeremy Spencer

EvilDragon said:


> Having used a keyboard that has wheels above the keyboard (Korg X5D) and then upgrading to a much bigger workhorse (Kurzweil PC3K8), I will respectfully disagree.



This is one of the reasons I ditched the M-Audio Keystation 88, it's an awkward reach, plus takes up a lot more real estate. I'm loving having them above, it's much more ergonomically convenient.


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## mverta

Yes, for me this is the studio centerpiece and most important part of the chain - it's the instrument. I also favor tactile controls which don't require looking at, but when viewed provide visual feedback for what's happening - current value and position relative to range. For example, my modwheel, "index slider" (you'll see), and other faders need to be able to display their current value both by graphical cue (LED array, for example), and numerically. By the current design, there is an array of displays in an angled row just above the keyboard which can display the status of any controller. When punching in on VI performances, where I constantly ride the wheels, I like to be able to seamlessly match the current value, which is pure guess work without this numerical feedback. I also like to be able to visualize things in the dark without them being obnoxious, and yes, my plan is to use full-spectrum RGB LEDs so the color scheme can be changed or customized. 

One of my day gigs back in the day was working the robocams for the news - 3 extremely dangerous, fully automated cameras which I had to keep an eye on at all times both to get them into position on the talent, and also because occasionally one of them would overshoot its calibration target and go streaking off like a 600-pound berserker droid. Anyway, I had a really intuitive set of joysticks and tactile feedback controls so I could keep my eye on them and the monitors at all times and the experience really stuck with me.


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## Nick Batzdorf

I could easily be tempted by a nice controller, but I'd resent being called either a real keyboard player or a triggering wanker. 

Keyboard-as-tool players like me play into a sequencer, edit, and come up with musical performances that way. So the feel is extremely important, but not quite as important as it would be to a real keyboard player.

Huff!


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## D Halgren

mverta said:


> and also because occasionally one of them would overshoot its calibration target and go streaking off like a 600-pound berserker droid.



This made me laugh out loud! Thanks for the great image!


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## s_bettinzana

A lot of interesting ideas here!
I am very interested in it.
It seems that we all have the same ergonomic issues and no company take care of it.

mverta, I have one question: you spoke about "semi-weighted" keyboard. What does this exactly mean? Can you give an example of a commercial product with a similar key-action?
I am using an hammer-action Fatar TP-40GH keyboard and I agree that I would prefere a synth-like action for a solo violin or solo woodwind passage. What do you have in mind?
Do you plan to use a commercially available keybed or do you want to design and manufacture a new one?


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## mverta

"Semi-weighted" can mean a lot of things, but any keybed that's not piano-weighted/hammer action-like counts. Quality is all over the map, none of them great. Hence...

Speaking of which...

With 88-keys, working traditional modwheels at the upper end of the range bends the left wrist in a unusual and hard-to-anchor position. I did some tests mocking up a shallow, ergonomically-comfortable surface which can be rotated at an angle to relieve tension and place controls in a natural place along natural motion vectors. It allows for eyes-free control while providing support for delicate movements and maximum comfort. This is the general idea:







With these sorts of things, proportion and angles are everything, so after working it up in CAD, I'll have to 3D print a bunch of prototypes to find the ideal actual positioning, but this already capitalizes on something our input mice have done for decades. In fact, I thought about that index-finger slider being a wheel as well, but I think fader is better, and 60mm seems to be just about the ideal throw for that space without pulling the hand of the anchor point.

_Mike


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## desert

We are so used to using a mod wheel to change the midi value from 1-127 but what if you designed something better?

I understand that you've used it for so long and you can play it like an instrument but others can't. What if there's a simpler way, like sqeezing a stressball (example)?

*breath controllers don't count


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## EvilDragon

mverta said:


> Quality is all over the map, none of them great.



Yamaha DX7 had a *great* semi-/synth-weighted action. Earlier Korgs as well (M1, Trinity, Triton).


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## charlieclouser

At one point, searching around on the Doepfer and Fatar OEM websites, I seem to remember that one of the Fatar mechanisms came in three "weights", and that this was accomplished by them just using different sizes of lead (?) weights at the back of the keys. (I think I was trying to get ahold of a Deopfer LMK4 with the lightest Fatar keyboard, but I never pursued it to completion.) Still, the idea sounded great - the ability to use a single mechanism and tailor it to various users by changing the feel would be a game changer. 

After one too many bong hits I started musing about how to do this without individual weights on each key, but rather with some sort of retractable / adjustable "bias bar" that would rest on the back side of the keys and be manually adjustable by a mechanical slider or lever on the side / back of the case, allowing the user to switch on the fly between synth action and heavy piano feel. How stoned was I? Very. But still......


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## EvilDragon




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## charlieclouser

EvilDragon said:


>




HAHAHAHA Perfect! 

Actually....


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## Daisser

Mike

I'm totally onboard with this. A year ago my old m-audio died and I was shocked at how bad most of the controllers were out there in touch and feel.

Kontakts Komplete's was the most frustrating. I wanted to like and buy one. I love NI stuff. They did all that work on highlighting the keybed for ketswitching but changed the mod wheel to some kind of pad. I see no way whatsoever to perform a good mod wheel technique on it (if someone has one and thinks I'm wrong, I'd love to know what I'm missing).

I like the modular idea and really like the idea of an extra assignable mod wheel. People have noted that three wheels are too much for the space. Well...move the pitch wheel! I'm willing to bet most of you use the expression pedal far more then the pitch wheel. If not make the wheel able to be assigned too either.

Also, and it might be said in the thread, what about a 64 key version of your genuis as well? I feel 64 keys is a good balance of space when fitting on a desk in a smaller studio.

Also I'd love a keyboard that really is easy and intuitive to setup with your DAW. General MIDI hasn't changed in ages but its always been a pain getting these keyboads to play nice and work well with all the DAWs.


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## kusheln

In!
Give us a Roland A88/NI S88 with proper wheels + simplicity of Doepfer.
No gimmicks a lá Novation/Akai/etc...
And under 1k$ if thats possible. 

Edit: +slim & 2 faders for left hand

Cheers!


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## mverta

One of the things in my initial design spec which I'm back-and-forth on is having all connections handled through a break-out box. From a convenience, aesthetic, and future-proofing standpoint (to whatever degree that's possible) being able to place the power, USB, pedals, MIDI, etc. somewhere else is cool.


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## Nick Batzdorf

By the way, this is going to take your friends at least two weekends.


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## mverta

You don't know these guys. But really the point is this stuff is super straight-ahead. Ain't our first rodeo.


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## D Halgren

Sounded like it was Walt Disney Imagineering.


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## mverta

Actually we were working with imagineering for the Avatar project. But they didn't actually do any system design or fabrication or integration they just sort of have to pee on it

And on a related note if you get a chance to see the new Pandora theme park at Disney world it's pretty incredible..


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## Farkle

mverta said:


> Actually we were working with imagineering for the Avatar project. But they didn't actually do any system design or fabrication or integration they just sort of have to pee on it
> 
> And on a related note if you get a chance to see the new Pandora theme park at Disney world it's pretty incredible..



My girls are going to Disney World *next week*, and they have the Pandora theme park scheduled. I'll tell them you worked on it, Sarah's going to love that. 

Mike


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## D Halgren

mverta said:


> Actually we were working with imagineering for the Avatar project. But they didn't actually do any system design or fabrication or integration they just sort of have to pee on it
> 
> And on a related note if you get a chance to see the new Pandora theme park at Disney world it's pretty incredible..



Gotcha, sweet!


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## synthpunk

Rack mount breakout would be cool Mike.

My Old Reliable dumpster dived Peavey C8 tank still works very well but I'm on board with this.

Will it have aftertouch? 

I personally need a good sized work area on top for fader devices, iPads, keyboard, trackpad, Etc



mverta said:


> One of the things in my initial design spec which I'm back-and-forth on is having all connections handled through a break-out box. From a convenience, aesthetic, and future-proofing standpoint (to whatever degree that's possible) being able to place the power, USB, pedals, MIDI, etc. somewhere else is cool.


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## wbacer

Hey Mike, if you're making a list and checking it twice, I'm in.
Looking forward to seeing some of your CAD drawings.
Great idea.


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## mverta

Just sketching some things. This is not the form factor or aesthetic in any way. I really think the controller-as-desktop-surface is the way I'm going. The faders mock-up here would be a modular unit, and the center keyboard/mouse area can either host another control bank, or serve as the keyboard place, where its height relative to the surface would be adjustable for flush-mount, or elevated ergonomics. One thing I'm doing is putting buttons just above the keys, two per octave. I will use these about a billion times a day.


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## byzantium

Great, I think it is good to consider the computer interface along with the music / instrument interface, as they are both needed, and need to work together.

Looks a little deep, but you did say ignore the form factor.
Don't have a ridge/valley to catch the crumbs/dirt though - unless you had a slide-able perplex cover to click in to it to cover the keys to allow you to bring the computer keyboard & mouse eve closer for editing / mixing work...).

I like the space on the left for the crystal ball / goldfish bowl.
(Don't worry I saw the earlier post).

Thanks.


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## jemu999

Like Mike, I can't stand any of the midi keyboards out there. I prefer to have a 88 key midi controller, but do not prefer the fully weighted keys for programming (except the piano). The semi-weighted 88 keyboards in the market are just so cheap feeling, loud, and uninspiring.

Interestingly, a year ago I was rehabbing my studio space and made a quick setup in a small spare bedroom. Because of the small space, I ended up using an old Korg Kontrol49 midi controller I had laying around. I quickly found that I loved programming on it. (aside from having only 49 keys) The non weighted synth action made programming brass, synths, strings, etc., a real joy.

Im in on purchasing Mike's creation here, but I personally would prefer a smaller footprint, akin to the Doepfer. I think midi faders and such are better if they are separate from the keyboard. And as far as semi-weighted, Im ok as long as it has super fast action. The ability to play a repeated single note easily. 

Looking forward to seeing how this progresses.


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## AlexRuger

Is the flat part (with the faders, qwerty keyboard, mouse) actually angling up slightly? If so, that's terrible for ergonomics.


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## mverta

AlexRuger said:


> Is the flat part (with the faders, qwerty keyboard, mouse) actually angling up slightly? If so, that's terrible for ergonomics.



Yes the angle is similar to every mixing console I've ever worked on. In fact, I'm trying to think if I've _ever_ seen a pro fader array that wasn't angled...!


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## synthpunk

Mike, Ever thought about coordinating with Corey@CACKLAND about his faderctrl unit ? Quite a few of us here have it.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/faderctrl-now-available-for-order.58734/


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## Kristoben

Hello Mike, a buddy of mine sent me a link to this thread. The ideas for your 88-key controller sounded like a dream come true so I joined up to add my vote! Plus this forum seems like a great place.

Maybe this is only a problem for me but I hope you can investigate the size of the actual keys. I apologize for the incoming spiel! The key size is usually not an issue with 88-key boards but I do find it is with "synth-action"/semi-weighted keys like most 76-key and smaller boards use. 88 boards usually have keys that are sized like those on an acoustic piano. Semi-weighted boards usually have smaller keys. I'm not talking about those terrible "mini-keys" just the normal synth keys on 76 and smaller boards from Korg, Yamaha, etc. of the last 20+ years. These keys are shorter and narrower than the ones used for 88s. The narrowness is really felt over the octave span when it's no longer the ~165 mm which is used on 88s.

I really came to dislike these keys when I was doing a stage production in the early 2000s. The keyboard rig was an 88 Yamaha Motif with a 76 Motif on top. This was the worst of both worlds for me. The 88 was too sluggish and stiff for anything other than playing pianos but with the 76 I was often flamming the narrow keys with my sasquatch sized hands.

Whatever you design I'm interested. A solid and robust "pro" 88-key controller is really needed!


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## mverta

Yes, the first thing I established is "normal" piano key width, and right now my octave span is exactly 165mm. My edges are generously rounded to make glissandos comfy. But yeah I hear you on this because my muscle memory hates the slightly-smaller-than-true key sizes, too!


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## mverta

synthpunk said:


> Mike, Ever thought about coordinating with Corey@CACKLAND about his faderctrl unit ? Quite a few of us here have it.
> 
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/faderctrl-now-available-for-order.58734/



I wasn't aware 'til now. I assume people really like the fader action..?


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## DocMidi657

Not sure if this is mentioned but the MOD wheel on the original DX 7 or KX88 was perfect both in feel and location on the body and then we saw years later awful spring loaded joysticks replace speatrate pitch bend/mod wheel..mistake or the pitch and mod wheels moved up on to the far left of the body which ergonomically is awful.I have been using a Motif ES8 for years because it has 88 keys, with aftertouch, and had the mod wheel and pitch bend in the right place and the right design. 
I 'd like to see a controller with:
a great amazing 88 key feeling keyboard, with AFTERTOUCH 
Built solid like a tank
low profile to build into a desk
USB OUT
Pitch and MOD wheels...the right way like the old days
an XY Joystick like on the old KORG wavestation had..would be great for the NI't THRILL or other stuff.
a simple solid feeling fader for writing track automation.


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## synthpunk

A few have said they might of preferred a heavier resistance like a Peavey PC-1600, but most like the smooth Alps action just fine.



mverta said:


> I wasn't aware 'til now. I assume people really like the fader action..?


----------



## desert

Will the mouse be able to move on the controller?


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## mverta

Regarding the modwheel - I still have and play on my original DX-7 all the time, and it's a great wheel, but all the modwheel positions suffer from twisting the left wrist at the upper end of the keyboard. If you try to modwheel an A6, you have to lean or reach really unnaturally. This is why my modwheel array is angled and the control surface rotateable. Regarding the keyboard/mouse pictured, these aren't built in, I just put some Apple stuff there for scale and visualization.


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## AlexRuger

mverta said:


> Yes the angle is similar to every mixing console I've ever worked on. In fact, I'm trying to think if I've _ever_ seen a pro fader array that wasn't angled...!


The faders should totally be angled how you're talking, but I think that the platform itself (which the modules will go into) should be flat. I could see some people wanting it mounted flush with their desk, but more importantly, a qwerty keyboard angled up from the back is murder on many peoples' hands (why so many keyboards are manufactured with feet to raise them in this way is beyond me).


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## Kristoben

mverta said:


> Yes, the first thing I established is "normal" piano key width, and right now my octave span is exactly 165mm. My edges are generously rounded to make glissandos comfy. But yeah I hear you on this because my muscle memory hates the slightly-smaller-than-true key sizes, too!


That is awesome! And rounded edges - Rock on! That not only makes it easier on the hands but helps in preventing twisting the keys which can lead to snapping them off during a glissando. I once did this on my Triton board.

This talk of modwheels reminded me of something else I have had before. Some keyboards have mod and pitch wheels (and buttons too!) that are made of a rubber or are coated with something rubber. This is supposed to help with grip but the rubber soon turns to nasty sticky gunk! I have had this happen on a Motif, S90 and a Virus. Meanwhile the hard plastic wheels on my ancient KX88 are still fine to the touch. I think the DX-7 uses the same wheels. My favorite wheels are probably on the Kurzweil K2500/PC3 boards. They have just the right width and I like the concave dips for grip.


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## wst3

so far you are hitting all the high points! I like the idea of the pod a lot, and not sure if it will extend a little as shown in the rendering, but I think it is a good idea.

keyboard and mouse - I was going to suggest building it into the case, but everyone has their own favorite keyboard and mouse, so that's a non-starter. However, have you considered pull-out drawers or slides for keyboard and mouse/trackball? sometimes I like the keyboard on top of the controller, but sometimes I like it in front. And I've grown quite used to having the mouse (actually a Kensignton Expert Mouse) all the over the right at keybed level.

I like the buttons above the keys a lot. Maybe more is better?

Any thoughts on some kind of keyswitch indication?

Really cool idea! Thanks for sharing!


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## Mystic

If this can actually happen, you can count me in as long as the price remains somewhat reasonable. My biggest gripe lately has been finding a semi-weighted controller that has good controls for everything.

One thing I've always wanted to see is more mod wheels so I don't need to constantly change what is assigned to where. I know some boards come with 3 which is a huge step in the right direction but very uncommon. Magnets to hold in modulars is brilliant.


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## mverta

It's happening, I just have a lot to design and think about! By the way, Corey and I spoke yesterday and he's coming by next week so thanks for putting us in touch. Great to compare notes if nothing else, and hopefully we can help each other somehow.

Yesterday I was working on the aesthetic. Form follows function, but it's important to get the "curb appeal" right. To that end, I'll be choosing between 1 of 4 possible looks/materials I've settled on. 1)"Mercedes" which is red leather, carbon fiber and chrome. 2) "Imperial" which is basically what everyone does - black, dark grays, etc. 3)"Yutani" which is sort of an army-looking-thing, like it's military gear, and 4)"Nautilus" which is wood, copper, and black leather; sort of steampunk-y. 

Oh, one other thought - perhaps the keybed, wheels, and "key buttons" is itself a modular unit which can pop off, for those applications where super-small footprint is required. I'm thinking on it.


----------



## jemu999

mverta said:


> Oh, one other thought - perhaps the keybed, wheels, and "key buttons" is itself a modular unit which can pop off, for those applications where super-small footprint is required. I'm thinking on it.


Now... This would be great.


----------



## jononotbono

I hate that the power switch on my current controller is on the back. I have built a desk for my controller to sit in and I have to unplug it by the mains socket to turn it off because to get access to the on/off switch means pulling the Keyboard out of the desk everytime and that isn't happening with my Apple Keyboard Velcroed in position. So a switch somewhere on the front or on the top that will always be visible would be great.

Also, I know this may sound silly, but what about two holes centralised that allows for you to plug in a custom Music stand? Currently my iPads are directly behind my Qwerty Keyboard (and they are always going to be there because I am now pretty reliant on using them for certain Keycommands - physical faders for CC control though) but I often try and lean bits of paper on them when attempting to look at notes (as in actual written notes not musical) and read music. I've often missed the music stand you find on typical fully weighted Electronic Stage Pianos. Just thinking out loud of course. Following this with great interest! I love a lot of the suggestions especially Charlie's in regards to the track ball being flush and the controller acting as a wristguard. Mine isn't quite like that yet but hey, I haven't finished building the desk yet.

Here's a photo of my current set up and although a bit messy, it's almost laid out to how I like things. I was going to build everything into some kind of custom case that is sort of D- Shaped to fit with the screens I have but everything is reliant on the control keyboard and there's no point in building anything further till I have the one Keyboard to rule them all. Currently a Doepfer LMK4+ is my wish list controller but this may change with your creation Mike...


----------



## jononotbono

Oh, and before anyone starts ridiculing me for writing a "D" on C7, I sometimes (in a pinch) write note names of Guitar riffs with white marker pens on the keys I'm working on, on the fly. What can I say? The White keys act like mini whiteboards sometimes haha


----------



## mverta

You sit insanely close to a main monitor that big.


----------



## synergy543

jononotbono said:


> Oh, and before anyone starts ridiculing me for writing a "D" on C7, I sometimes (in a pinch) write note names of Guitar riffs with white marker pens on the keys I'm working on, on the fly.


Thank goodness! I thought you might still learning the notes of the keyboard. Whew!

And for anyone wondering about how to sell your old keyboard, just make a cool video like this.


----------



## jononotbono

synergy543 said:


> Thank goodness! I thought you might still learning the notes of the keyboard. Whew!



Haha! Yes. Although I feel like I know nothing musically I am thankfully past that stage. Even know all my Keys and everything now. I know, get me a medal


----------



## jononotbono

mverta said:


> You sit insanely close to a main monitor that big.



I recently bought this 43 inch 4k screen. It's an absolute game changer. Doesn't need scaling so from an arms length away all text is readable. I love it.

I'm also loving the detail and thought you are putting into this Controller.


----------



## mverta

synergy543 said:


> And for anyone wondering about how to sell your old keyboard, just make a cool video like this.




...aaaaaannnnd he misspelled "excellent."


----------



## Mystic

mverta said:


> 4)"Nautilus" which is wood, copper, and black leather; sort of steampunk-y.


This would be sexy as hell and I don't think it's really been done. Red is kind of an Nord/CME already, Imperial is done over and over, Yutani could be interesting but Nautilus just sounds elegant and I personally love the look of woods and metals together.


----------



## jononotbono

Mystic said:


> This would be sexy as hell and I don't think it's really been done. Red is kind of an Nord/CME already, Imperial is done over and over, Yutani could be interesting but Nautilus just sounds elegant and I personally love the look of woods and metals together.



Is Pterodactyl Bone asking a bit much?


----------



## zacnelson

I apologise if somebody has already mentioned this; I haven't had time yet to read all the messages, but I will eventually. Like most people, one of the irritating things about working on music all day is switching between piano and keyboard/mouse/trackpad. What about a piano designed with a trackpad built-in? Located around middle C as close to the piano keys as possible. With all the normal expected trackpad functionality so it operates the same as your main trackpad. And if I may be so bold, (and this is less practical than the trackpad idea), imagine a piano with a full QWERTY keyboard included near the keys, or perhaps a few keys for basic transport operation (eg spacebar, left arrow, right arrow, return, delete, record-enable). If you think this idea has any merit, great! I'm fantasizing a bit here


----------



## mverta

Well this is essentially what the design features. Modular pop-in sections which can hold faders, or knobs or whatever, or blank panels for a smooth surface, or an adjustable keyboard/mouse/trackball shelf, etc.


----------



## jononotbono

zacnelson said:


> I apologise if somebody has already mentioned this; I haven't had time yet to read all the messages, but I will eventually. Like most people, one of the irritating things about working on music all day is switching between piano and keyboard/mouse/trackpad. What about a piano designed with a trackpad built-in? Located around middle C as close to the piano keys as possible. With all the normal expected trackpad functionality so it operates the same as your main trackpad. And if I may be so bold, (and this is less practical than the trackpad idea), imagine a piano with a full QWERTY keyboard included near the keys, or perhaps a few keys for basic transport operation (eg spacebar, left arrow, right arrow, return, delete, record-enable). If you think this idea has any merit, great! I'm fantasizing a bit here



It's a nice idea but it's taken me my whole life to find a mouse/trackball I love (Kensington Slimblade) so definitely can't see myself moving away from that ever again. It's just my opinion though.


----------



## Mystic

jononotbono said:


> Is Pterodactyl Bone asking a bit much?


I think it would go perfectly with the Tyrannosaurus skin case.


----------



## Mystic

mverta said:


> Well this is essentially what the design features. Modular pop-in sections which can hold faders, or knobs or whatever, or blank panels for a smooth surface, or an adjustable keyboard/mouse/trackball shelf, etc.


Were you thinking of selling these modules individually or including them with the keyboard? That's probably more of a "down the road marketing decision" style question but wasn't sure if you planned on including everything in an all inclusive package or offer it with a bare bones type starter board and sell modules separately.


----------



## mverta

I think there would probably be a base model, which is just the keybed, keybuttons and modwheel orb which is connected to (but can be detached from) the main body which has blanks where the modules would go, and then people could choose which modules they wanted, a la carte, basically. That's kind of what I'm picturing.


----------



## Casey Edwards

I can't wait to see where this goes. I've actually been building my own 16 fader board as well. I kept thinking someone will eventually release another great Peavey/Kenton-esque fader controller, but they never did. So now I'm close to finishing the first model that will head the way for manufacturing so we can all have something nice. Everything is custom PCB work that already has a working code and software companion to run it.


----------



## mverta

Atta boy, Casey.


----------



## jononotbono

Casey Edwards said:


> I can't wait to see where this goes. I've actually been building my own 16 fader board as well. I kept thinking someone will eventually release another great Peavey/Kenton-esque fader controller, but they never did. So now I'm close to finishing the first model that will head the way for manufacturing so we can all have something nice. Everything is custom PCB work that already has a working code and software companion to run it.



Just so you know I would be hugely interested in buying a 16 Fader Controller. I have a JLCooper Fadermaster Pro and love it but always wish I had more faders. Please keep us on here in the loop with this! Man, you've just made my day!


----------



## germancomponist

What a great idea, Mike!
I suggested to built one nearly as you described here years ago to Roland, Yamaha e.t.c. No responce. After Yamaha bought Steinberg I thought ah, maybe now, and I suggested it again, to Steinberg and Yamaha.
And ......, again no responce ..... .

Good luck, Sir!


----------



## Jdiggity1

This is bringing back memories of the VAX77.
Except yours looks useful.


----------



## synthpunk

But will it fold in half ? 

VAX is actually back btw, Van's new design has poly AT, and the keyboard is modular to allow for easy replacement in small sections. Another guy Mike you might want to get in touch with at the very least for some spitballing.

http://vaxmidi.com



Jdiggity1 said:


> This is bringing back memories of the VAX77.
> Except yours looks useful.



Trackballs, keyboards, faders fail and gunk up. Best to keep it it modular & user replaceable IMO.

Black is my preference.


----------



## Ozymandias

synthpunk said:


> But will it fold in half ?
> 
> VAX is actually back btw, Van's new design has poly AT, and the keyboard is modular to allow for easy replacement in small sections. Another guy Mike you might want to get in touch with at the very least for some spitballing.
> 
> http://vaxmidi.com



Either I've totally misread the vibe from the VaxMIDI forum, or it's been something of an ordeal for everyone involved (Kickstarter and Kickstartee alike).

Credit to them for attempting it and shipping it, though.


----------



## mverta

Again, just sketching.


----------



## jononotbono

To be honest, I think Native Instruments have missed a trick with the Light Guide. Every Key should be a screen.


----------



## mverta

That'd last all of about a month.


----------



## jononotbono

Yes of course. But I wasn't talking about NI releasing it. 
What's the legal standing for putting something like the Light Guide into a Keyboard? Something that doesn't need that terrible Kontrol Software. Just literally LEDs that show the Kontakt Keyswitches as soon as you load a kontakt library? That Lightguide is a fantastic idea but so far away from being fantastic at the minute.


----------



## AlexRuger

jononotbono said:


> Yes of course. But I wasn't talking about NI releasing it.
> What's the legal standing for putting something like the Light Guide into a Keyboard? Something that doesn't need that terrible Kontrol Software. Just literally LEDs that show the Kontakt Keyswitches as soon as you load a kontakt library? That Lightguide is a fantastic idea but so far away from being fantastic at the minute.


The keyboard would need a way to communicate with Kontakt, and I'm 99% sure that you won't be able to pull that off unless you're NI.


----------



## mverta

I don't know but it's a useful idea.



AlexRuger said:


> The keyboard would need a way to communicate with Kontakt, and I'm 99% sure that you won't be able to pull that off unless you're NI.



Even if you could just manually define regions on the keyboard to know where they are as a workaround it'd be useful.


----------



## synthpunk

I think just about every Kickstarter/Crowdfund I've ever been in has been an ordeal 

I hope Mike is ready for what he's getting into...



Ozymandias said:


> Either I've totally misread the vibe from the VaxMIDI forum, or it's been something of an ordeal for everyone involved (Kickstarter and Kickstartee alike).
> 
> Credit to them for attempting it and shipping it, though.


----------



## mverta

Here's how you do a Kickstarter: You have the money already and look to double it. This way, your primary investors can seed the kickstarter and create momentum/boost it along at regular intervals; nobody wants to throw money at a thing they can see is already dying or dead. If you can't convince seed investors, you need to work on your pitch anyway. That, and announce it well beforehand to create an initial push. I think the way one organizes, communicates and presents an idea in the Kickstarter itself can tell any savvy investor what its chances of success are.


----------



## Mystic

Kickstarters have become more miss for me these days than hit. It's a risk on all levels for people who pledge for something because you don't have any real idea what the end result will be. In a lot of cases, developers go in clueless with the reality behind what it will take to get their product to the finish line. On the other end, a lot of people go in with that knowledge of what it takes but the end results end up not what was promised as corners had to be cut here and there or what they wanted to do originally got changed to a more viable or standard option. Then there is the waiting. I don't think I've been in a single KS that has met it's goal time so far (though clickpack pro might be the first next month to hit the actual ship date and some people already got theirs) so you wait and wait while getting occasional updates basically saying "wait longer".

I guess I'm tired of the "we promised this but you're getting this instead" and "we spend a month working on this but it wasn't working so we need to change it to something that is not what we promoted" and "we need to raise more money because it's costing more than anticipated" and "it will ship when it's done but we have no idea when that is so be patient".

Not saying that is the case with this at all and it seems you've got good ideas on what you want. It really REALLY *REALLY* helps that you are making this first and foremost for yourself as something you want for your own work environment.


----------



## mverta

Well it also helps that I've done design and fabrication a ton. It's just always for a client and never for myself. Plus between 3D printing and my local friends who've got CNC machines in various capabilities, it's much easier to mock up prototypes at various stages and components at various stages without having to go full wack into the feasible release candidate prototype stage. But again it's who you know, and what sort of experience you've had makes all the difference.


----------



## desert

Does anyo


mverta said:


> I think there would probably be a base model, which is just the keybed, keybuttons and modwheel orb which is connected to (but can be detached from) the main body which has blanks where the modules would go, and then people could choose which modules they wanted, a la carte, basically. That's kind of what I'm picturing.


Will there be a module for my right wrist to rest on when im using the mouse? Currently it is resting on the black keys. _(I'm the only one doing this, right?)_


----------



## MacTomBie

Any chances of integrating touch controls into the keys? Having something like touchkeys (http://touchkeys.co.uk/) built directly into the keys would be awesome!


----------



## jononotbono

MacTomBie said:


> Any chances of integrating touch controls into the keys? Having something like touchkeys (http://touchkeys.co.uk/) built directly into the keys would be awesome!



I thought the same thing but this will bump the price up dramatically. Also other people may not want it and in the fashion of being modular, there's nothing stopping anyone from just adding them to any keyboard so perhaps it's best just to do that when you buy one?


----------



## MacTomBie

jononotbono said:


> I thought the same thing but this will bump the price up dramatically. Also other people may not want it and in the fashion of being modular, there's nothing stopping anyone from just adding them to any keyboard so perhaps it's best just to do that when you buy one?


Perhaps as an option then? Touchkeys seems very nice, but I read somewhere that you forfeit the ability to gliss your fingers over the keys. Also, not everybody is comfortable with opening your controller and messing with the insides.


----------



## synthpunk

Touch Keys is an interesting concept but way over priced IMO, perhaps more expensive than the controller itself. Let's try and stay focused and realistic with the project.


----------



## mickeyl

I'm late to the party, but let me state my interest here as well. I'm a bit spoiled by NI's offer (the S61 has a great keybed) and the light guide is very nice for key splits et. al., but willing to give it up (that is, unless you want to reverse engineer the USB protocol and bring the light guide as well ) for a great 88er. Which keybed do you want to use? Is there anything from FATAR that has the S61 action but more keys?


----------



## saeflod

Mike, what's the closest equivalent to the semi-weighted action you're thinking of?

I've played some really nice synth-action keybeds and hammer-action keybeds, but all of the semi-weighted keys I've tried were awful. While I can imagine something that feels great, I don't know if I'm imagining the same thing you are.


----------



## s_bettinzana

saeflod said:


> Mike, what's the closest equivalent to the semi-weighted action you're thinking of?
> 
> I've played some really nice synth-action keybeds and hammer-action keybeds, but all of the semi-weighted keys I've tried were awful. While I can imagine something that feels great, I don't know if I'm imagining the same thing you are.



+1


----------



## mverta

It would be hard to describe my goal with the action here, which is all-important. I'd say at least a couple of things, one of which is that the keys themselves feel solid. Most controllers today feel like flimsy plastic shells to the touch. So the actual under-the-finger-feel is solid. The key depth at the front will be the "short" kind, as found on DX-7's, JV-80's/1000's. This, combined with nicely rounded edges everywhere makes glisses comfortable. The action will require something akin to the standard amount of initiating force (3oz) but be fast and responsive on the release without making banging noises. At the bottom of the keypress there cannot be a "wall"; there has to be a touch of give. This increases comfort, prevents injury for those of us with heavy touches, and helps with key noise. The keybed will have polyphonic aftertouch. Ideally, I'd like the action to be tuneable - heavier or lighter - and there are ways to do this, we're just examining how to implement it in a way that isn't insane.


----------



## DocMidi657

mverta said:


> It would be hard to describe my goal with the action here, which is all-important. I'd say at least a couple of things, one of which is that the keys themselves feel solid. Most controllers today feel like flimsy plastic shells to the touch. So the actual under-the-finger-feel is solid. The key depth at the front will be the "short" kind, as found on DX-7's, JV-80's/1000's. This, combined with nicely rounded edges everywhere makes glisses comfortable. The action will require something akin to the standard amount of initiating force (3oz) but be fast and responsive on the release without making banging noises. At the bottom of the keypress there cannot be a "wall"; there has to be a touch of give. This increases comfort, prevents injury for those of us with heavy touches, and helps with key noise. The keybed will have polyphonic aftertouch. Ideally, I'd like the action to be tuneable - heavier or lighter - and there are ways to do this, we're just examining how to implement it in a way that isn't insane.


Hey Mike..so glad you are taking this project on! I just posted this on another post when some asked about using older synths for controllers. 


I am still using my old Motif ES8 as my controller becuase it has 1. decent 88 note weighted action..With After Touch. 2. Pich and Mod Wheels in the right location. I have also used a PC88 for years as well for the same reason however Yamaha's action is of higher quality in feel and reliabalilty then the PC 88 imo. I also use a Yamaha KX8 which was discontinued and not to be confused with KX88 however the KX8 does not have after touch, chassis is plastic that hurts the feel when the the keys travel to the bottom. Also the pitch and mod are in the upper place of the keyboard which is a royal pain in the butt. Interesting how the chassis can effect the "FEEL" of the keboard but it does. I beefed it up and it helpded alot and gave a more "Solid FEEL". Just a heads up for consideration Mike Verta when building one (but you probably know this). When I worked for Ensoniq we used a company FATAR out of Italy for our keybeds, they even designed one with "POLY" AFter Touch though the polyaftertouch concept never caught on.  When I went to work for Korg we used (belive it or not) Yamaha for our keyboards for the M1 and T Series and Wavestattion but then to save on costs we went with FATAR as well for later synths. During that time period Fatar actions were always less expensive but also felt that way ( a bit spongy).


----------



## Xaviez

When/if MV includes allt he features people ask for in this thread:


----------



## mverta

Ha... yes people very clearly want a tiny form-factored controller that's big enough to put a keyboard on, provided it can be adjusted up and down, and has room for a mouse, or ideally a trackball (as long as it can be flush) and have at least three modwheels, no modwheels, modwheels on the upper surface, faders, no faders... 

I am the strongest possible believer in that if you actually _need_ to ask the market what it wants, you don't know the market, and probably aren't part of it. We can't please everybody, but with some intelligent thought and application, I think it's possible to satisfy more people than might be thought. But ultimately, I recognize myself as being the most difficult kind of person to please, and having more in common with controller users than not. In short, I'm designing they keyboard that _I_ would buy, because if you can please this pain-in-the-ass, most people are probably going to be over the moon. It's served me well so far. The task is not a complex one, actually, it's just a difficult one. The technologies and such we've already established are not particularly challenging. But really getting it right - having the patience to not settle - takes discipline and desire. We estimate there will probably be 10 full keybed prototypes on the road to final. With precision instrumentation, where fractions of a millimeter and fractions of force can make all the difference, it can take awhile to get to the magic zone. But we'll know it when we hit it. If the goal is met, this keyboard will instantly and without hesitation feel like something on a vastly superior level of control and comfort than we've been trained to expect.


----------



## Steinmetzify

I like the sound of that. Been following the thread, vastly interested to see what you come up with. Sounds like a winner so far, man. Good luck with this, apparently you've got a crowd watching lol.


----------



## jtnyc

The thing that interests me the most is just an 88 key semi weighted action that's better than all the crap that is now available. 2 mod wheels would be great. Faders are cool, but if it makes the housing any deeper than 11 inches or so, it starts getting too deep for me. My Impact LX88 has faders and dials and is still only 11 inches deep. Too bad the keybed is not great. It's better than the M-Audio Keystation I was using, but I'd welcome a well built semi weighted in a heartbeat. I'm not a fan of bright and colorful gear. I prefer the black and grey approach. Definitely keeping an eye on this


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

I am watching with interest. I have one of the original VAX77 keyboards (the folding one). It has a light semi-weighted touch. It has fully PolyAT. They key depth is very similar to my piano, but MUCH lighter. The keys are not "weighted" but sprung somehow. They are optically sensed. This has the practical benefit of not having a rubber touch strip under the keys. The keys bottom in the way Mike Verta describes - there is give, just enough to cushion things, but it is NOT spongy the way that mechanisms with rubber contact strips are. 

After this experience, I am pre-disposed toward any keybed with optical sensing, as it separates the keyfeel from the key sensing. This is sensible design. The goals are different, and if not moving a hammer mechanism, there is no reason to combine them. 

The PolyAT is OK, but it isn't groundbreaking. I thought it was going to be radically awesome, but it isn't. The PolyAT in the Seaboard is groundbreaking, and far more controllable. There just isn't enough throw in the VAX77 aftertouch mechanism to mean much. PolyAT would not be half as important to me as overall key feel. I'd happily have it sacrificed for excellence in other places. Its fine if present, but won't be a decision point. I would be happily surprised if PolyAT ends up as expressive as the Seaboard. If not, I have a Seaboard for that reason. 

The other lovely thing about the VAX77 is its physical form factor. It is only 4" tall or so, and the top is completely flat. I have had so many things on top of it from computer keyboards, an OB-6, various knob and button boxes. The folding bit is awesome for playing out, but made the keyboard too expensive to sustain as a product. (That and the custom magnesium chassis...) 

The high-resolution MIDI that comes off the VAX is quite nice. Playing Pianoteq with it is nice. Optical sensing gets this easily. Synths will only get better, and many can already use it. This DOES make useful variation for running digital things. 

The VAX has sustain plus three pedal inputs. This has been quite useful.

I would love for the VAX to have real wheels for mod and pitch. The design is clever, but not as controllable.

The best pitch/mod wheels I've ever used are on the John Bowen Solaris. They are superb, precision controllers that are a joy to use. If you can make controllers that feel this good and work this well, I would be thrilled. The Solaris is only 61 narrow synth keys - I tried, but can't deal with it at the desk. There is the perfect amount of weight, resistance, and long-throw in the Solaris wheels. I'd call John Bowen and ask how he did it. I'm sure there's no magic in the potentiometer - its all in the wheel mechanism that drives the pot...

I do wish my VAX had 88 keys. I like that the keys are full-sized and not narrow Yamaha synth keys.

If this becomes available, at the intended build quality, I will be strongly interested. It won't be cheap, and neither was the VAX. But the VAX has been a true investment and has given me many years of use and shows no signs of letting up.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

BTW - I think the VAX77 was originally $3,000 USD. The Lachnit FLK fully weighted controller that is prepped by an ex-Bosendorfer master tech and optically sensed is $4,500. Given the intended build quality, I'm guessing that it will end up in that ball-park. Unless Mike finds a major manufacturing partner, I can't see how $1000 is remotely feasible - with traditional manufacturing margins, that's a COGS of ~$250 for a $1000 retail in a store. Cut out the store margin, and maybe $500 of parts can go in. Maybe possible if Mike eats all the dev and tooling costs for us, but excellence will be worth it at a higher price. My interest definitely exceeds the $1000 threshold. I don't see it as realistic for something as good as proposed, but would happily be wrong.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

mverta said:


> One of the things in my initial design spec which I'm back-and-forth on is having all connections handled through a break-out box. From a convenience, aesthetic, and future-proofing standpoint (to whatever degree that's possible) being able to place the power, USB, pedals, MIDI, etc. somewhere else is cool.


I would strongly NOT prefer this. It will ruin any use of it live (and I would intend that use as well). Please mount everything in the chassis with proper chassis mounted connectors. Don't just butt the circuit board up to the chassis and let all the insertion force be taken by the connector soldered to the circuit board. Panel mount the connectors and they will last forever. I would also strongly prefer an IEC power inlet if it is not USB buss powered. Wall warts are a pain live, flimsy, lame connections. I know IEC is overkill from a current/power perspective, but it is so vastly preferred for usability.... I can get 15' IEC powercords to drape through desks, up stands, etc.


----------



## mverta

I play live all the time.. why would a rack mounted box with connections, tethered to the keybed assembly with a single umbilical be a problem for you? Personally, I would love this.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

Rack mount would be fine. I didn't want a loose dongle box with flimsy non locking connectors. Rack mount is no problem. All the connectors would actually go to things in my rack, so that's a win. I would need a long umbilical to get out of rack and up a keyboard stand. I'm sure you have the same need


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

If a rackmount box ends up in the design, I might want two... one in stage rig, one in studio... that's where all in one is easier. I would not want to rack and Un-rack the brain all the time. I can deal with only one if I have to, but might not want to. I like just taking the VAX off the desk and leaving all cables in place.


----------



## mverta

Yes there would be nothing flimsy, non-locking connectors on this. And certainly built for flexibility and ease of breakdown, etc. Anyway, it's just an idea on the table; one of many.


----------



## colony nofi

So keenly interested in this......


----------



## mwarsell

EvilDragon said:


> Yamaha DX7 had a *great* semi-/synth-weighted action. Earlier Korgs as well (M1, Trinity, Triton).


Yes, I used to use Triton, now 01/W just for the kb action.


----------



## mwarsell

I foresee a R2-D2 track ball and Vader helmet controller which tracks eye movements. Plus a straw with a bottomless JD barrel.


----------



## mickeyl

Space for a keyboard on top would be Great. Please consider the footprint of ergonomic Keyboards though!


----------



## FriFlo

This is the desk I built, so while I am interested in any custom keys, it would have to fit to my custom desk. This in my opinion the problem here ... every true custom keys would be only truly custom for a few people, while most people would have to fit everything else according to it ...




(I couldn't figure out how to rotate that image. Before I uploaded, the orientation was correct ... anyway ...)


----------



## higgs

How do you manage the whole gravity thing in that room?


----------



## Leon Willett

lol


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Don't your arms get tired playing that keyboard?


----------



## FriFlo

Wolfie2112 said:


> Don't your arms get tired playing that keyboard?


Are you talking to me? No, I had it around the other way before, but when I built my desk I found out that using mouse and keyboard is tiresome in that position and I actually play less on the desk than I use mouse and keyboard. That is for my workflow, though, as I often go to the piano and write some notes, so, on that desk I do a lot more midi editing and mixing than playing. Playing works almost as good as on the piano, when I just put keyboard and mouse away. If I were to build another desk, I'd probably put the keys a little bit higher. Other than that I wouldn't change a thing.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

FriFlo said:


> Are you talking to me? No, I had it around the other way before, but when I built my desk I found out that using mouse and keyboard is tiresome in that position and I actually play less on the desk than I use mouse and keyboard. That is for my workflow, though, as I often go to the piano and write some notes, so on that desk Indo a lot more midi editing and mixing than playing. Playing works almost as good as on the piano, when I just put keyboard and mouse away. If wer to build another desk, I'd probably put the keys a little bit higher. Other than that I wouldn't change a thing.



Thanks for that, always interested in how others work.


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## Mystic

It's been a bit over a month. Was wondering if there was anything new to talk about. I'm pretty excited about this project.


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## synthpunk

Mike has his own forum now you might want to head over there for more discussion.



Mystic said:


> It's been a bit over a month. Was wondering if there was anything new to talk about. I'm pretty excited about this project.


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## AlexRuger

FriFlo said:


> Are you talking to me? No, I had it around the other way before, but when I built my desk I found out that using mouse and keyboard is tiresome in that position and I actually play less on the desk than I use mouse and keyboard. That is for my workflow, though, as I often go to the piano and write some notes, so, on that desk I do a lot more midi editing and mixing than playing. Playing works almost as good as on the piano, when I just put keyboard and mouse away. If I were to build another desk, I'd probably put the keys a little bit higher. Other than that I wouldn't change a thing.



Agree, this is the most ergonomic and efficient way to have your desk set up. Really doesn't cause any issues with playing the piano. I used to have my MIDI keyboard flush against the desk a la HZ, but it fucks up your posture and makes the keyboard and mouse too far away, causing (or in my case, worsening) RSI. Love the MIDIBoard, I've always wanted one of those!


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## Maestro1972

synthpunk said:


> Mike has his own forum now you might want to head over there for more discussion.


where's this forum?


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## wbacer

Maestro1972 said:


> where's this forum?


http://redbanned.com/index.php


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## Mystic

synthpunk said:


> Mike has his own forum now you might want to head over there for more discussion.


Yah, I got the email about it. I'm hoping that doesn't mean he will stop posting here since everything is now hashed out with the issues that were going on. There are just too many forums to keep up with now, sadly.


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## patrick76

Mystic said:


> Yah, I got the email about it. I'm hoping that doesn't mean he will stop posting here since everything is now hashed out with the issues that were going on. There are just too many forums to keep up with now, sadly.


I don't think he is posting here. I say that because he didn't post here about the last masterclass he did. Of course I am only speculating.


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## chimuelo

mverta said:


> I play live all the time.. why would a rack mounted box with connections, tethered to the keybed assembly with a single umbilical be a problem for you? Personally, I would love this.



I play live for a living.
I learned the hard way about an All In One keyboard.

Here's my fast set stable set up...

I would love to retire Solaris and grab another 88, designed by a programmer/performer.
I'd set it on my top tier.


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## Maximvs

I am watching this thread with great interest as I have been looking for an 88-keys controller for ages.

Please Mike give us some picture concepts if you have it so it is much easier to discuss things further, give opinions, options, suggestions, etc...

I have been thinking for quite some times to build my own controller, so it is refreshing to see that other individual have and are thinking alike.

What I would say is that now a days there are resistant alternative materials to plastic and metal that can make a controller lightweight as well as robust, plus the solar power implementation is also something that I feel is possible.

Cheers, Max


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## synthpunk

Perhaps @mverta wants to concentrate on his own forum now? But not to post here where the target audience for this product is seem odd.


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## Maximvs

synthpunk said:


> Perhaps @mverta wants to concentrate on his own forum now? But not to post here where the target audience for this product is seem odd.


Are you referring to the recent forum he created for his masterclasses?


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## FriFlo

Well, I think he wants all of you to join his forum, if interested in his masterclasses or this keyboard. Here, he had to pay for his threads to be able to sell his masterclass. Now, he is putting that money in his own forum. I don't see where the problem is ... either you guys are interested and join or leave it ...


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## Maximvs

FriFlo said:


> Well, I think he wants all of you to join his forum, if interested in his masterclasses or this keyboard. Here, he had to pay for his threads to be able to sell his masterclass. Now, he is putting that money in his own forum. I don't see where the problem is ... either you guys are interested and join or leave it ...


I already joined Mike's forum but was not clear if this 'custom controller' thread was still open sort of speak...


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## mverta

I'm focusing on the new forum while wishing VI-C the best. Information on this project and my Masterclasses can be found there. My "target audience" is internally-motivated to come find me, which should help to keep my forum obscure, small, of little interest to developers, unpopular, and my project mostly off the radar. Now we're talking.


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## higgs

mverta said:


> My "target audience" is internally-motivated to come find me, which should help to keep my forum obscure, small, of little interest to developers, unpopular, and my project mostly off the radar. Now we're talking.


Fight Club rules apply?


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## mverta

Ha... they don't work anyway. No, in a world of constant bleating pressure to subscribe and like, I just prefer a contrarian stance.


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## tack

Mike, I liked your post because irony.


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