# Two scales to learn...?



## minimax (May 18, 2017)

I don't know any scale for now.
I used always helpers and write in different ones.

I realized its not gonna work forever like this, I don't know any scale, and I am using helpers and trying to write in different ones. 

What would you recommend, which two scales to study for the heroic/epic and celtic (heroic and emotional flute passages) music? 

Is there any difference between major and minor in terms of getting epic, heroic or emotional result?


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## Replicant (May 18, 2017)

Start with the 7 notes (8 if you're one of those snobs that includes the octave) of the Major & Minor scales, learn the Harmonic and Melodic Minor and from that, learn the pentatonic scale and the 7 modes: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc. Good news is that if you know the major/minor scale, learning the modes is easy because the notes are the same, you just start from a different note in the scale.

For the "heroic" stuff, the natural minor (which is also the Aeolian mode) is basically the go-to scale and the Dorian mode is also a good choice if you want something a bit more light-hearted. To be honest, understanding the modes is probably the most valuable tool a media composer can have because they all have very distinct sounds and emotions; it's extremely effective.

For folk kinds of music, you cannot go wrong with the Pentatonic.


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## NoamL (May 18, 2017)

Heroic/epic music is often in either *mixed mode* or *Lydian*. Lydian is probably a bit dated and sounds like older Hollywood films.

Mixed mode is a harmonic system (not a scale) that makes use of all the major chords generated by the major scale _*and* _the natural minor scale. So C Mix contains C major, F major and G major from the C major scale, and also Ab major, Eb major and Bb major from the C minor scale.

Nearly every big hero-story movie these days uses that system. Pirates, Big Hero Six, Xmen, Avengers, Iron Man, Man of Steel, Pacific Rim, etc etc etc, just a ton of movies. As well as an enormous quantity of trailer music.

Here's a piece that will be easy for you to transcribe or play and learn the shape of mixed mode:



You could say that the central interesting feature of mixed mode is the tension between the two versions of the 6th scale degree. In C MixMode, we have an Ab (to be the root of Ab major) but also an A natural (to be the third of F major). You can hear how Henry Jackman is using both of them "against" each other, that is the engine that gives the music forward momentum. Having tension between b6 and Nat6 has some pretty strong associations with heroism in film music (James Bond anyone?)

Another example of the same idea:





For Celtic music, study the *Dorian* and *Mixolydian *modes as a lot of folk music makes use of these two very pretty and bittersweet scales. Scarborough Fair for example.

So that is 4 scales already for you, but also, everyone should know the *octatonic* scale. This scale's qualities are difficult to describe, I would call it "colorful" and "kaleidoscopic" because it naturally furnishes you with so many major chords that are outside the diatonic scale but powerful and logical in context.

If you've heard an exciting piece of film music and wondered what the scale was, it was most likely this. It can sound ominous, or adventurous.


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## Anders Bru (May 18, 2017)

Could someone please explain the difference between a scale and a mode? For some reason I can't wrap my head around it. I grew up playing rock guitar, so I learned about chords and scales, but after I got more into filmscoring there seems to be more focus on modes. Maybe I am just confused.


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## ed buller (May 18, 2017)

a mode is a scale started on a note OTHER than the route . So...C major played from D to D is D Dorian. It uses ALL the same notes but crucially Starting at a different place. This changes the sonority quite markedly . E to E ( same notes ) is E Phrygian . F is Lydian..G is Mixolydian A is Aolian ( as known as natural minor, used in pop music a lot rather than the Harmonic and Melodic versions in classical music. Has a minor 5 chord ) and B is Locrain....hard to use as it has a diminished 5th.

e


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## Rowy (May 19, 2017)

minimax said:


> What would you recommend, which two scales to study for the heroic/epic and celtic (heroic and emotional flute passages) music?



It would be wiser to study scales in general, otherwise you'll know just 2 scales, but you still have no idea of what you're doing. Really, it's not that difficult, so why hesitate? In the end you will want to know them all.

Did you know you can calculate all scales? Just saying.

http://www.teoria.com/en/tutorials/scales/


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## robharvey (May 19, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> Could someone please explain the difference between a scale and a mode? For some reason I can't wrap my head around it. I grew up playing rock guitar, so I learned about chords and scales, but after I got more into filmscoring there seems to be more focus on modes. Maybe I am just confused.



With guitar modes are more a function of playing in a key all over the neck. With composing you're paying mind to a chord which will give you the sound of it's corresponding mode. That's it in it's most basic form, before you're putting two chords next to each other or superimposing a pentatonic scale over a chord to give you a sound.

Sit behind a piano and a keyboard and make up a melody in C, with a C bass note underneath. Once you've come up with something work out it's sequence. After that just move it up a note and play the same sequence, and hey presto you're playing in Dorian.

It starts to get complicated when you need to figure out the notes within the scale that give it it's characteristics. IE with Dorian it's the major 6th compared to the natural minor scale that has a minor 6th. You'd then target that note when making your melody to more pronounce the sound.


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## JohnG (May 19, 2017)

There's plenty of good advice here, including Rowy's suggestion that you just learn them all, since there really aren't that many, and most people don't even use that many anyway. You hear a lot of major (white keys starting on C), a lot of minor, a lot of aeolian (white keys starting with A), myxolydian (white keys starting with G), and dorian (white keys starting with D). Some people do use Lydian (white keys starting on F) -- James Horner liked it.

If you want to go further, there is a lot of fun stuff. For example, using Major 7th chords that are either actual or quasi-substitutions (jazz term for swapping out a chord from the "normal" one) can create dissonance, something sadly lacking in many film scores (an absence that makes them so boring sometimes). Also, the octatonic scales that are fun to mess around with. 

Some popular film scores are surprisingly dissonant. Despite the perception, John Williams insinuates remarkable quantities of dissonance into his scores using Major 7th chords. They don't _sound_ dissonant exactly, but they create interesting clashes.

Much helpful stuff regarding scales and modes is right on Wikipedia, and it won't take long to get through it. If you can't read music that would be an impediment, but that also can be overcome pretty fast if you work a bit at it. Youtube!!



Anders Bru said:


> I grew up playing rock guitar



Depending on one's ambitions, a rock background may be spot on! A lot of rock-song-style chord progressions are found in many film scores nowadays, for good or ill.


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## Anders Bru (May 19, 2017)

Thank you for the great comments! I'm currently visiting Oslo, going to see Hans Zimmer tomorrow. When I get back I'll get behind the keyboard and dissect all the info


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## Mornats (May 19, 2017)

robharvey said:


> Sit behind a piano and a keyboard and make up a melody in C, with a C bass note underneath. Once you've come up with something work out it's sequence. After that just move it up a note and play the same sequence, and hey presto you're playing in Dorian.



I've been reading this thread with some interest. I tried Rob's suggestion (quoted above) and finally got why playing in modes works. I played a C major chord and played melodies starting from the E (therefore the phrygian mode). All good.

So I found an image online of all the notes in each major scale for each mode and copied it into a spreadsheet. I wanted to created a minor chord one too but I couldn't find any. Then I learnt that you can start on the aeolian mode and you have the minor scale. So let's jump to D minor chord and try to play a phrygian melody on top of that. Hmm, the phrygian mode has an F# in it which isn't in D minor. So I got confused and I know I'm missing something.

If I want to play melodies in different modes with a minor chord underneath do I play the notes that would appear in major chord nodes? I have a feeling I've totally not grasped a concept here that's now confusing me!


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## MatFluor (May 19, 2017)

I just quickly drop in to recommend Alan Mayrands course on that topic: "Modal Mastery".

Great course and a lot of stuff is well explained.


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## TimCox (May 19, 2017)

Just write a melody with a minor scale and apply appropriate major chords to the whole thing and it'll sound 'epic'

e.g. The Fellowship theme in Lord of the Rings as all major chords. Bam. Done.


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## NoamL (May 19, 2017)

@Mornats yes you've misunderstood.  If you want to understand the flavor of the Phrygian mode, try playing the white notes from E to E with an _E minor chord_ underneath, not C major. The center of E Phrygian is E not C.

You will notice that E Phrygian sounds a lot like E natural minor, except that F natural is giving it a special flavor.

Long story short is that modes are like scales with altered qualities.

If we want to construct a mode we just take a scale and slightly alter its qualities.

For example Phrygian is just like natural minor, but with the 2nd scale degree flattened. So instead of E *F#* G A B C D E, we're playing E *F* G A B C D E.

Lydian is major with a #4. So if we wanted to play E Lydian, we'd start with E major: E F# G# A B C# D# E. And now raise the fourth scale degree: E F# G# *A#* B C# D# E.

Mixolydian is major with the 7th scale degree flattened. So E Mixolydian is just like E major, but with a D natural instead of D#.


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## NoamL (May 19, 2017)

Also:

There are lots and lots and lots of modes beyond the ones people always talk about (Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Ionian, Dorian).

For example Lydian Dominant is a major scale with #4 and b7. So C Lydian Dominant is C D E F# G A Bb C.

Your question was:



> If I want to play melodies in different modes with a minor chord underneath do I play the notes that would appear in major chord nodes?



The short answer is that it will sound good if you pick *a mode that has the same members* as the chord.

Let's say we're in F major, and we're about to play C7 -> F at the end of our song.

What mode or scale should we play over the C7?

Well, the _*members*_ of C7 are: C, E, G, Bb.

So: we can play C Mixolydian (aka F major) because all 4 of those members are notes in that scale: C D E F G A Bb

We can also play C Lydian Dominant: C D E F# G A Bb. That F# will give it some cool spice.

We can play a whole tone scale: C D E F# G# A# (the A# is effectively the Bb member of C7).

We can play C Alt! C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C! We still have three members of the chord represented in the scale, the C and the all important tritone E-Bb, the Fb is the same as E.

And so on.

The theoretical provenances of the scales are less important than the qualities they confer onto the chords that you're playing them over.

So let's say you have a minor chord, D minor, and you're wondering what scale to play on top.

Well, you know you will be using D, F, and A. That still leaves you 4 notes that could be almost anything. You could certainly play a D minor scale, but also consider:

- D Dorian (by adding E, G, B, C)
- D Phrygian (by adding Eb, G, Bb, C)
- D harmonic minor (by adding E, G, Bb, C#)
- D minor pentatonic (just add G and C, don't play any qualities of E or B)

These are the most obvious choices. As long as you're not creating huge dissonances with your underlying chord, you're in good shape, or safe territory I should say.


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## tack (May 19, 2017)

ed buller said:


> a mode is a scale started on a note OTHER than the route.


I think maybe this is how you catalogued modes in your mind, but I have to say this doesn't make a lot of sense to me and how I understand modes. Because ...



ed buller said:


> So...C major played from D to D is D Dorian.


... isn't the fact that D Dorian happens to share the same notes with C major tangential? D Dorian starts on D as C Dorian starts on C (at least to the same extent that you could say "C major starts on C").


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## NoamL (May 19, 2017)

tack said:


> I think maybe this is how you catalogued modes in your mind, but I have to say this doesn't make a lot of sense to me and how I understand modes.



That indeed seems to be the debate on VIC every time someone brings up modes...

I am firmly in the "scalar qualities are what makes modes matter" camp and wish someone would demonstrate how the method of relating them back as 2nd, 3rd, 4th modes _of a parent scale_ adds musically useful information.


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## tack (May 19, 2017)

NoamL said:


> I am firmly in the "scalar qualities are what makes modes matter" camp


I didn't even know there were other camps. I mean how can it not be the case that it's the scalar relationships between notes that gives modes their quality? 



NoamL said:


> and wish someone would demonstrate how the "D to D, E to E" method of learning them does anything other than create confuson...


I learned modes that way and never felt confused. I understood that using the notes from C major to play C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, etc. was just a convenience -- not having to give the notes any particular thought and instead being able to focus on internalizing the quality of the modes -- and that one could also have learned C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, C lydian, etc. In the latter case, you'd need more mental energy to derive the scales and maybe have less opportunity to concentrate on how the modes _sound_.

So from an pedagogical perspective I can understand the "use only white notes" approach to teaching modes, but I suppose I can also understand how this could mislead people into thinking there is something special about the D in "D Dorian."


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## gregh (May 19, 2017)

I've never really got modes as an organisational system for playing in the way NoamL mentions above eg "So let's say you have a minor chord, D minor, and you're wondering what scale to play on top."

When I played/improvised I just played whatever I thought of - which could include notes from anywhere really depending on what I was wanting. Same for composing - I imagine what I want and then record that - sometimes taking a while to find how to make what I've thought of I admit.

I can see in a commercial sense how having a repertoire of standard effects can be incredibly useful and also how having more knowledge is better than less but I've not really "heard" that idea one sees in jazz of "play from these scales for these chords" makes for a creative response. Not that one always needs a hugely creative response for a lot of music

I know I must be missing something but not sure what.

(also I've never really got the idea of modes in equal tempered music either)


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## ed buller (May 19, 2017)

i was just trying to be helpful.....


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## tack (May 19, 2017)

ed buller said:


> i was just trying to be helpful.


Apologies if that Python sketch was how you perceived my reply. (Although it _is _an excellent classic.)


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## ed buller (May 19, 2017)

no ....i just couldn't resist.....and your quite right....BUT it's such an easy way to visualise and understand modes a lot of people ( me included ) still think of them that way. But you are correct in that intervallically they are seperate scales and should be represented as such. The starts on D nonsense is just a nemonic really...

e


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## TimCox (May 19, 2017)

I relate mode by which scale degree has changed which in turn tells me what chords are present (i.e. Eb Lydian is an Eb Major with a #4, D Phrygian is a D minor scale with a b2). I find it easier to use AND visualize. But everyone is different!


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## Rowy (May 20, 2017)

I must say, all that talk about modes and chords who sound epic or not just gives me the creeps. There's harmony and there's harmony, that's it. And then you can do anything, period.


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## FriFlo (May 20, 2017)

Scales are theory and therefore sometimes fail to explain what exactly a composer did with a certain passage. The more complex the composer writes, the more ambiguous all disciplines of theory become and that goes for scales as well as counterpoint and harmony. However, I doubt that will help the OP as for a beginner it is perfectly ok to think about a tune in one scale and pretty much derive all chords from that scale. That is not what I find particularly interesting, but it is a good starting point.
To think of it like there was a scale for "epic" is a little misleading though, as there are different moods that can come from just one scale, depending how you use it. IMO everybody persueing the art of composing should be interested in a variety, not in one field only (except for maybe kids, where it is pretty natural to be focused on only one direction and be obsessed with just that). What you can hear on most media music today is kind of misleading in terms of what it takes to compose music.


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## Mornats (May 20, 2017)

NoamL said:


> @Mornats yes you've misunderstood.  If you want to understand the flavor of the Phrygian mode, try playing the white notes from E to E with an _E minor chord_ underneath, not C major. The center of E Phrygian is E not C.
> 
> You will notice that E Phrygian sounds a lot like E natural minor, except that F natural is giving it a special flavor.
> 
> ...



Thanks, although I'm still struggling a little! I'll explain what I'm trying to do, as I'm sure I've completely gone off on the wrong concept and I think yo're bringing me into the right thinking now.

Let's say I've got a chord progression of Dm Am Gm. Usually I'd play a melody on top that would simply be in the Dm, Am, then Gm scale - pretty simple basic stuff. All of the melodies would usually start on the tonic. I had initially thought that I could play a melody starting on a mode. So for the Dm, I'd start on the F and play up the Dm scale thinking that I was playing the phyrgian mode but I don't think that's true? Would I instead play a melody using the intervals of phrygian but starting on the D? And that way I'd get the feel of the phrygian but the melody would still be in D to match the underlying chord?

In short, if I'm playing a Dm chord, what would I do to introduce a melody that uses a different mode?


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## MatFluor (May 20, 2017)

Mornats said:


> Thanks, although I'm still struggling a little! I'll explain what I'm trying to do, as I'm sure I've completely gone off on the wrong concept and I think yo're bringing me into the right thinking now.
> 
> Let's say I've got a chord progression of Dm Am Gm. Usually I'd play a melody on top that would simply be in the Dm, Am, then Gm scale - pretty simple basic stuff. All of the melodies would usually start on the tonic. I had initially thought that I could play a melody starting on a mode. So for the Dm, I'd start on the F and play up the Dm scale thinking that I was playing the phyrgian mode but I don't think that's true? Would I instead play a melody using the intervals of phrygian but starting on the D? And that way I'd get the feel of the phrygian but the melody would still be in D to match the underlying chord?
> 
> In short, if I'm playing a Dm chord, what would I do to introduce a melody that uses a different mode?



In short:
To be clear I'll go from C: In your words, I would play a Cm chord and play from E to E (Phrygian) but it sounds wrong - yes - because you were playing E-Phrygian over C Minor. For example to get C-Lydian, you can go multiple ways (Modal Mastery recommended again), but the obvious way would be:
You play from F to F, you notate the steps on that scale (in this case: WWWHWWH (W: Whole tone/step, H: half tone/step)). Now you take this and go from C to C and get the C-Lydian scale: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C.

You went from the Minor scale to construct the scale - you can do this of course, but for the beginning I would construct them from the Major scale.

I hope this I phrased that clear enough 

Edit Addendum:
D-Minor would be the Aeolian mode constructed from F-Ionian (F-Major) if I'm not mistaken. Same as A-Minor can be constructed from C-Major


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## Rowy (May 20, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> Scales are theory and therefore sometimes fail to explain what exactly a composer did with a certain passage. The more complex the composer writes, the more ambiguous all disciplines of theory become and that goes for scales as well as counterpoint and harmony



Agreed, but I must point out that a lot of this so called complex writing is upon closer examination traditional harmony. Even in some of Schoenberg's atonal pieces you can detect traditional harmony. Then again, there is a difference between harmony that is being taught to musicians who study music and harmony as it is being taught to composers at a conservatory. Don't know how things are in other countries though.

And yes, a lot of postings give me the creeps, but that might be a difference in culture. Music for film (mostly _epic_, which is not the same as _classical_) isn't that big outside the USA, although the aggressiveness of commercial music, like film music, is taking its toll in Europe.

> To think of it like there was a scale for "epic" is a little misleading though, as there are different moods that can come from just one scale, depending how you use it.

If it comes from one scale, then it can come from another scale. It's just transposed. Perhaps you mean _modes_. English is not my native language, so I am not familiar with music slang. Or do you mean _keys_?

A composer can prefer a key, but that is very personal. To one composer _G major_ might sound majestic, while another composer thinks _C major_ sounds majestic. And then there's the difference in pitch standard. 440 Hz or 392 Hz (Bach), that's quite a difference.

I'm no expert, but I think it is possible to use a non-equal temperament in a DAW. If you choose an old temperament an 'epic' sounding chord could sound entirely different. It is even possible that a non-epic chord will sound epic if you change the temperament. In that case you don't even have to learn 'epic' chords by heart. All you have to do is to start push buttons. Someone should tell this to minimax.

By the way, what is the emoticon for 'pulling your legs'?


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## Mornats (May 20, 2017)

I'm getting there I think - thanks for your patience and explanations. So the basic concept I need to grasp is that it's the intervals that make the mode what it is and not the starting note?

Oh hang on... my NI S61 keyboard has a chord mode with the modes on it. That will help with working out which notes are in each mode.


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## FriFlo (May 20, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Agreed, but I must point out that a lot of this so called complex writing is upon closer examination traditional harmony. Even in some of Schoenberg's atonal pieces you can detect traditional harmony. Then again, there is a difference between harmony that is being taught to musicians who study music and harmony as it is being taught to composers at a conservatory. Don't know how things are in other countries though.
> 
> And yes, a lot of postings give me the creeps, but that might be a difference in culture. Music for film (mostly _epic_, which is not the same as _classical_) isn't that big outside the USA, although the aggressiveness of commercial music, like film music, is taking its toll in Europe.
> 
> ...


Yes, it may be often traditional, but in my mind it is very often more like lots of interwoven ideas, which might be possible to explain with e.g. functional harmony, but don't make a whole lot of sense to me. For example, analysing a Bach Fuge with functional harmony is pretty much pointless to me, except that there might be some Kandenzas in there where you could see those functions. Yet, many people did do that in the past and sometimes still do that today. And that shows me, that sometimes theory can not only enlighten, it can also make blind ...
Where theory really gets interesting is when learning the actual theories in existence at the time the music got composed. Then, things start to make a whole lot more sense! But very few people get that deep into theory, even good composers are often not deeply in that kind of theory, which is ok, if they still write interesting music. I just want to say, theory is important, but it is not everything. E.g. discussing the meaning of the Tristan Chord can be interesting at one time in your live, but seem like idiots talking about meaningless stuff and disputing BS in another phase of your life ...


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## ed buller (May 20, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> For example, analysing a Bach Fuge with functional harmony is pretty much pointless to me, except that there might be some Kandenzas in there where you could see those functions.



tend to agree....there is a tendency in some books to tread his meanderings as free chromaticism with to me makes more sense but ever since schenker i'm afraid there's an over reliance on function. It does make studying a total ball ache sometimes as a lot of film music relies on extended harmonies and all sorts of tricks that are not covered or explained badly. And yes there are some dull affectionados of harmonic syntax, musical civil servants who will cross swords over a misplace appogiatura but there're easy to avoid

e


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## Rowy (May 20, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> Yes, it may be often traditional, but in my mind it is very often more like lots of interwoven ideas, which might be possible to explain with e.g. functional harmony, but don't make a whole lot of sense to me. For example, analysing a Bach Fuge with functional harmony is pretty much pointless to me, except that there might be some Kandenzas in there where you could see those functions. Yet, many people did do that in the past and sometimes still do that today. And that shows me, that sometimes theory can not only enlighten, it can also make blind ...



Sorry, but you're wrong. If you think it is possible to study or analyse instrumental counterpoint without a sound knowledge of harmony, then you did not study counterpoint.

Studying vocal counterpoint (Renaissance) however, that has to be done without applying traditional harmony. Perhaps you got the two mixed up.

And theory doesn't make you blind. You do not study composition to encage your mind. That's a hoax which is very popular with people who did not, or do not want to, study music. If you can make yourself believe it's all about instinct and talent, then you'll probably sleep better, but only if you keep away from real knowledge.


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## DervishCapkiner (May 20, 2017)

minimax said:


> I don't know any scale for now.
> I used always helpers and write in different ones.
> 
> I realized its not gonna work forever like this, I don't know any scale, and I am using helpers and trying to write in different ones.
> ...





I really had no 'ear' before composing and to start hearing sounds I recommend the easiest way being to sing a little every day. Really it's the easiest way to cut through all the theory stuff and BS.
Sing intervals and scales . Just start with one a day or week ( I started learning all this from age 29 to now (I'm 35 ) in my car..... To do the scales I did roughly as follows you can too ( because I'm not that smart )....


Sing:
1:The major scale ( can you really sing this starting on any random note you give yourself ?) If no then play it at a piano-listen on youtube etc, sing it at the same time you're playing it. Then when that's easy sing it directly after you've played it, then when that's easy practice singing it while you're driving your car, walking in the street etc . *The next six will be flattening ONE note from the scale before.*
2:Then practice also flattening the 7th note of that scale by half a step, do this for 10 mins for a few days. ( you are singing the Mixolydian mode - one of the most common sounds in Western music for cadences, Blues , Jazz , Rock etc ) 123456b7`
3: Then also flatten the 3rd note by half a step, practice 10 mins for a few days( you are singing the Dorian Minor mode - to me quite a neutral sounding minor scale )12b3456b7
4: Then also flatten the 6th note by half step, 10 mins a few days ( you're singing the Aeolian mode or natural minor as some people like to call it - used a bit more in Rock and classical - Think ' Hit the Road Jack' bass line)12b345b6b7
5: Then also flatten the 2nd note a half step , 10mins, few days (Phrygian mode - this one will take a few extra days or maybe weeks as it's not a common sound to the Western ear generally speaking - used more in middle eastern music through again popular in jazz - just for the record I realise I'm speaking VERY generally but it helps to start I think )1b2b345b6b7
6: Additionally flatten the 5th note - 10 mins several days or weeks ( Locrian mode - (Jazzers again!) use it on half diminished chords )1b2b34b5b6b7
7: Additionally flatten the 4th ( Altered Scale or Super Locrian Mode - everything flat except note one)1b2b3b4b5b6b7
8: These all follow a set pattern ( flattening one note at a time to gradually open your ear but on days you want to try a different sound sing the major scale then try sharpening(word?) the 4th note of the scale for the VERY common mode ( The Lydian mode ). For me it's the sound of American TV, Film music and the end of jazz tunes .123*4567

Others you can try are: flatten the 3rd note straight from the major scale to get the Melodic minor ( Think the sound of Alfred Hitchcock movies - Bernard Herman )or Flatten the 3rd and 6th from the Major scale to get the Harmonic minor scale a very commonly used Classical minor scale and the only one on the whole list with a minor 3rd interval in it.

Though this may seem like a lot of info, actually it's nearly all here and that's it- it's not that complicated really . I personally think this is good way to start slowly then you will understand actually people are not 'sticking' to any one scale ( as mentioned above ) They're just using a bit from this one and a bit from that one and really these are just old labels to help you get to know and differentiate the sounds as well as communicate the sounds to others.

So yea, start from the major scale and experiment with flattening and sharpening notes slowly - label them all - then realise scales are just a means to understanding key centers ( not for now..) which is just a means of broadening your palette of sound.

Cheers


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## Flaneurette (May 20, 2017)

When I'm poodling around on my keys I never think about scales. It's only when I find something nice, that I start to use theory to build upon it, as a kind of road map. Sometimes I find some dissonance leap that creates a beautiful tension/suspension. Then I start to backtrack to see what I exactly did and use theory to figure out where I should be going next. I could have done it all with theory alone, but it would have taken me much longer.

Even Mozart flirted with atonality. Some of his pieces were dissonant filled with suspensions, long before the atonal guys came along.



Almost Wagnerian.


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## FriFlo (May 20, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Sorry, but you're wrong. If you think it is possible to study or analyse instrumental counterpoint without a sound knowledge of harmony, then you did not study counterpoint.


I did study it quite intensely and I did not say you should not learn counter point or harmony. All I am trying to say is the actual work of composers is more than one or more theoretical idioms thrown together. Hence, all of those theories certainly help to understand (sometimes more, sometimes less). But there are also situations, where the theory does not present you the full picture.


> Studying vocal counterpoint (Renaissance) however, that has to be done without applying traditional harmony. Perhaps you got the two mixed up.


IMO there is always harmony if there are more then 2 (you could argue more then 1) voices. It is just a different concept of harmony. 


> And theory doesn't make you blind. You do not study composition to encage your mind. That's a hoax which is very popular with people who did not, or do not want to, study music. If you can make yourself believe it's all about instinct and talent, then you'll probably sleep better, but only if you keep away from real knowledge.


Again, you are trying to put meanings into my writing I did never intend to express ... I think theory is very valuable, but it has its limits and it CAN (not necessarily must, of course) make you blind. All those people from the last century using Riemann's functional theory on everything, including Bach Chorals - even Fuges - should provide enough proof that it possible to persuade yourself you understand everything with one theory, but be wrong about it (at least in my and my former professors opinion  ).
It may be true, that people might misunderstand what I wrote as what you just implied. You don't get a great composer just by applying rules other people gathered from works of previous composers. You can of course write like that, but IMO something is missing if you only rely on that.


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## sazema (May 20, 2017)

Rowy said:


> It would be wiser to study scales in general, otherwise you'll know just 2 scales, but you still have no idea of what you're doing. Really, it's not that difficult, so why hesitate? In the end you will want to know them all.
> 
> Did you know you can calculate all scales? Just saying.
> 
> http://www.teoria.com/en/tutorials/scales/



Absolutely, when you learn how stuff works in general you will know how to build any scale.


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## sazema (May 20, 2017)

As you're beginner I have suggestion, please watch and learn from Karen Ramirez Cuneo



A good YT channel for beginners in music theory. Karen is good teacher and worship player. After a while you will benefit from those videos. She has 100+ videos just about music theory (for free).

Another good resource for beginners is this one



P.S. Just ignore some dumb students in here


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## Anders Bru (May 22, 2017)

I was watching this video (link below) by Rick Beato about the Phrygian Mode. In the beginning he says "in the key of C it's E Phrygian". In my head that's just the E Phrygian Scale. I understand that it's the C major scale played from the third, but what I fail to grasp is the practical relationship between the E Phrygian scale and C. To me, you have a set of scales (major, minor, dorian, phrygian, etc...) that can be applied to each note, obviously depending on what key you're in. So if I'm in the key of E, and I want something uplifting I'll try the Lydian Scale, or if I want something more scary I'll try the Phrygian scale, etc. Again, what I fail to understand is what "this is the C major scaled played from the third" helps me?


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## tack (May 22, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> Again, what I fail to understand is what "this is the C major scaled played from the third" helps me?


It's purely a mnemonic from what I can tell. One that apparently creates endless confusion.

Most people have the major scales solidly memorized. So if your mnemonic for phrygian for a given key is that it uses the same notes of the major scale a M3 interval below, then you don't need to spend any time figuring out the notes. OTOH if you have internalized the note relationships and know intuitively that phyrgian is "H W W W H W W" then you know all you need play the scale on any key.

I confess I don't understand why so much instructional content insists on presenting modes as they relate to the major scale. Even saying that phrygian is 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 means you first have to think of the key's major scale to derive the mode. Isn't it the interval between the notes that's more important in giving modes their quality? Is there some deeper meaning in the modes' relationships to the major scales?

I suppose I have just ended up asking the same question you did.


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## ed buller (May 22, 2017)

well part of being a mode IS it's relationship to a key and scale. Supposedly the names come from greek tribes but a crucial aspect of their construction is shifting a scale ( c maj ) up by one step of the scale to give you D dorian.....

makes sense to me

e


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## XoXautronic (May 23, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Heroic/epic music is often in either *mixed mode* or *Lydian*. Lydian is probably a bit dated and sounds like older Hollywood films.
> 
> Mixed mode is a harmonic system (not a scale) that makes use of all the major chords generated by the major scale _*and* _the natural minor scale. So C Mix contains C major, F major and G major from the C major scale, and also Ab major, Eb major and Bb major from the C minor scale.
> 
> ...



Brilliant share.
...AND with supporting examples!

That's the sort of stuff that makes this site/forum such a gift amongst a sea of nonsense online. Thank you.


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## NoamL (May 23, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> Even Mozart flirted with atonality. Some of his pieces were dissonant filled with suspensions, long before the atonal guys came along.




Wow the first minute of this before it becomes standard Mozart, is really great.


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## DervishCapkiner (May 23, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Heroic/epic music is often in either *mixed mode* or *Lydian*. Lydian is probably a bit dated and sounds like older Hollywood films.
> 
> Mixed mode is a harmonic system (not a scale) that makes use of all the major chords generated by the major scale _*and* _the natural minor scale. So C Mix contains C major, F major and G major from the C major scale, and also Ab major, Eb major and Bb major from the C minor scale.
> 
> ...




_ Wrote my reply without reading any of the others and must say I think you explained this really well and succinctly. I thought I shouldn't mention the whole-half, the half-whole scale (octatonics) , the whole-tone and the chromatic as I thought it would be too much info though I do still think it's important to learn to sing these above all else. Can I ask how you learned ?_


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## gsilbers (May 23, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Heroic/epic music is often in either *mixed mode* or *Lydian*. Lydian is probably a bit dated and sounds like older Hollywood films.
> 
> Mixed mode is a harmonic system (not a scale) that makes use of all the major chords generated by the major scale _*and* _the natural minor scale. So C Mix contains C major, F major and G major from the C major scale, and also Ab major, Eb major and Bb major from the C minor scale.
> 
> ...




Interesting. So how would you approach it in a way to keep tonality? Using two modes at the same time is very close to just to all chromatic.


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## ed buller (May 23, 2017)

I can't find anything on the interwebs or my fairly copius collection of harmony books about "Mixed Mode" . It just seems to me to be just borrowings . I'm intrigued . Please could you point to where you learnt this ? mr NoamL

best

ed


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## Johnny42 (May 23, 2017)

Ed,
Harmony and Voice Leading book by Aldwell & Schachter has an entire chapter dedicated to mode mixture.


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## ed buller (May 23, 2017)

I have that...but i'm not seeing any reference to "Mixed Mode" as a specific technique ..

e


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## D Halgren (May 23, 2017)

It's in the Dissonance and Chromaticism I section, under Mixture. In the third edition it is chapter 23, page 390.


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## ed buller (May 23, 2017)

Ok

thanks i'll give it a butchers

e


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## synergy543 (May 24, 2017)

ed buller said:


> I have that...but i'm not seeing any reference to "Mixed Mode" as a specific technique ..
> 
> e



Me neither. There's really not much about modes in that book at all (only p.18-19) and he says "in this book...there are only two mod of any importance: major and minor" (p.19)



D Halgren said:


> It's in the Dissonance and Chromaticism I section, under Mixture. In the third edition it is chapter 23, page 390.


OK, in the 4th edition, this is Ch.24 on p.435 and he only talks about combining major and minor.

@ed buller - btw, what does "i'll give it a butchers" mean?


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## ed buller (May 24, 2017)

yes i don't think there is a "mixed mode" really . I also don't hear that in the examples. Just chromatic mediants that are maj chords. And all the changes seem to be in thirds.....which is what you'd expect . This is an old hollywood device....both Maj and Min versions

"butchers" comes from "butchers hook"....= " To Look" .....queens' east end english ....cockney

e


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## Puzzlefactory (May 24, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Heroic/epic music is often in either *mixed mode* or *Lydian*. Lydian is probably a bit dated and sounds like older Hollywood films.
> 
> Mixed mode is a harmonic system (not a scale) that makes use of all the major chords generated by the major scale _*and* _the natural minor scale. So C Mix contains C major, F major and G major from the C major scale, and also Ab major, Eb major and Bb major from the C minor scale.
> 
> ...




Good stuff, never heard of mixed mode before. Definitely going to do some research into that. 

Out of interest, what's a good scale for "middle eastern" style music? Stuff like the theme music of Battlestar Galactica (season one only) or the Muse track "United States of Eurasia"...?


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## MatFluor (May 24, 2017)

When I think of Middle Eastern or Arabic - I immediately hear Harmonic Minor - but (similar to modes) played from the fourth below (so e.g. D harmonic minor from A to A - listen to first five notes - instant middle east (for me)


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## D Halgren (May 24, 2017)

synergy543 said:


> Me neither. There's really not much about modes in that book at all (only p.18-19) and he says "in this book...there are only two mod of any importance: major and minor" (p.19)
> 
> OK, in the 4th edition, this is Ch.24 on p.435 and he only talks about combining major and minor.



That is mixed mode. Read again:

Mixed mode is a harmonic system (not a scale) that makes use of all the major chords generated by the major scale _*and* _the natural minor scale. So C Mix contains C major, F major and G major from the C major scale, and also Ab major, Eb major and Bb major from the C minor scale.


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## Daisser (May 30, 2017)

I read tons of different descriptions about modes and how to use them over the years and none of them really sank in. I would get it at the time of reading it but just didn't stick long term.

Someone linked this below in another thread on VI and I was blown away by this guy. 20min and this man covers what's probably a few chapters in a book or half a semester class. Plus, a real world application that makes sense. He has other classes on theory that could help if this goes over your head.


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## Replicant (May 30, 2017)

MatFluor said:


> When I think of Middle Eastern or Arabic - I immediately hear Harmonic Minor - but (similar to modes) played from the fourth below (so e.g. D harmonic minor from A to A - listen to first five notes - instant middle east (for me)



That would be the Phrygian Dominant mode! The flattened second interval and the major third are the key to getting that "middle eastern" sound in everything from "The Mummy" to "Prince of Persia" or "Battlestar Galactica"! It's my favourite. 

Anyway, I've never heard of "mixed mode" but I do know about "modal mixture" or "borrowed chords" which is probably what is causing the confusion.

While I'm not sure I'd agree that _most_ "heroic" music does this (though our definitions of heroic likely vary substantially) you do most often see the v chord in a minor key swapped to a major triad.

Lastly, someone up there asked about how to keep the sound of the mode while changing chords. The easiest way is generally to have the tonic/root note of the key present somewhere in each of the chords — a pedal tone.


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