# Avantone Mixcube(s) for Orchestral Work?



## Stephen Rees (Apr 20, 2015)

I've read a lot about these monitors, and how useful they can be as an alternative reference to listening on one's 'main' monitors. Most of the comments I've seen have been about how useful they are to get kick and bass balance right; or vocals and snare; or making sure mixes will translate well into many different listening environments etc. So they are great for working with pop, rock etc. mixes presumably.

But…..what about orchestral or hybrid synth orchestral work? Does anyone find them useful for this purpose?

A single one costs £200 or so, and if it is as useful as people say that sounds like a bargain to me. But I don't do any pop/rock/song etc. work, so I'm unsure whether it would be useful to me.

I'd welcome any thoughts anyone might have. Thank you


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## Hannes_F (Apr 20, 2015)

I have them, bought an amp for them, installed them ... nearly never use them. I like the idea theoretically and really tried it, but it did not work for me. 

Maybe it is because they are just toooooo different to proper monitors. Listening to laptop speakers (I mean those that are really built into my laptop) however works good here and tells me more about the mix that I didn't know.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 20, 2015)

I have a feeling I might react to them in the same way as you have.

You may have just saved me £200. Thank you Hannes!


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## RiffWraith (Apr 20, 2015)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Apr 20 said:


> But…..what about orchestral or hybrid synth orchestral work? Does anyone find them useful for this purpose?



Yes and yes.

I would never use these as my mains, but they are great to check mixes on. ANY mix.

Picked the pair up for $279 USD, and to me, it's def. worth it.

Cheers.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks for that Riff.

What kind of things do you find them telling you that you aren't getting from your mains? And would you recommend a pair over just getting one of them?


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## RiffWraith (Apr 20, 2015)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Apr 20 said:


> Thanks for that Riff.
> 
> What kind of things do you find them telling you that you aren't getting from your mains? And would you recommend a pair over just getting one of them?



I have a pair, but one can be useful if all you are going to use them for is check your mixes in mono.

They tell me when my low end is a bit too muddy; if it is, the lows don't cut through with the cubes, telling me to make adjustments.

They also tell me if I have a bit to much in the mids, specifically in the 1.5k range.

They will probably tell me more as time goes on, but I have only had them for a short while.

Cheers.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks for that. Appreciated!


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## Aaron Sapp (Apr 20, 2015)

I use it all the time. It helps put things in perspective, especially if your primary target is television.


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## Dietz (Apr 20, 2015)

The main benefit of full-range speakers like Auratones etc. is that they don't suffer from the typical (and system-inherent) crossover-induced phase-errors of two- or three-way speaker systems. This makes the "overall" balance and transient behaviour of a mix much clearer and therefor easier to judge.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 21, 2015)

I've never heard anything like these before, and your comments have encouraged me to have a listen for myself - thank you all 

I'm just wondering whether to get a pair or just one? I'm not looking to them for any stereo information about a mix, so just a single one would seem to be able provide most of the benefits that this kind of monitor design can offer.

If anyone has more insight into the 'single or pair' question I'd be very interested to hear it - otherwise I think I'll just get one and see how I go. I can always buy a second one later if need be.


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## Bohrium (Apr 21, 2015)

I have two of them but rarely use them for actual stereo stuff but for checking the mix mostly in mono.

You hear mistakes a lot easier and faster that way. Mainly balancing errors will jump right at you.

If I would buy them again ... I don't know. The builtin speakers are OK for this, too.
I have 'em and use them regularly for phasing and balancing issues. If it sounds right on those it will sound right on my main speakers. Never the other way around.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks Bohrium, that's really useful to know.

I don't know how people feel about their mixes when they are 'finished'. For me, there comes a time when I have to just say 'that's it, there's no more time, I can't tinker around with these mixes any more, I have to commit to all the mixing decisions and let them go'.

I know the mixes are the best that I can do with the equipment and skills that I have, but I'm never sure that they are 'right'.

I'm hoping the mixcube(s) can give me a different perspective, so that I can be a bit more confident that my mixes are OK.


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## Bohrium (Apr 21, 2015)

Stephen Rees @ Tue Apr 21 said:


> Thanks Bohrium, that's really useful to know.
> 
> I don't know how people feel about their mixes when they are 'finished'. For me, there comes a time when I have to just say 'that's it, there's no more time, I can't tinker around with these mixes any more, I have to commit to all the mixing decisions and let them go'.
> 
> ...



Well, I think you're a lot more experienced than I am ... but I know what you're talking about. Even after years ... I still find stuff I would have done differently in my mixes.

I'm doing some mix gigs, as well as composing ... and they come in handy for exactly this one perspective.


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## mathis (Apr 21, 2015)

I use one to check balances and mono compatibility. And it definitely gives that different perspective. I like and use it a lot.


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## tokatila (Apr 21, 2015)

You guys should put a "GAS warning" to all of these threads. I just thought I was done for a while.

Now I think I must find some cube(s) to listen to.


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 21, 2015)

tokatila @ Tue Apr 21 said:


> You guys should put a "GAS warning" to all of these threads. I just thought I was done for a while.



I know.

Talking of which, I got those baby Genelecs by the way


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## Joram (May 4, 2015)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Apr 20 said:


> So they are great for working with pop, rock etc. mixes presumably.
> 
> But…..what about orchestral or hybrid synth orchestral work? Does anyone find them useful for this purpose?


I'm really happy with my Avantones when setting up levels and panning, but I never use 'm when mixing orchestral or hybrid compositions. You need to hear the whole spectrum and not just mids. So my advise: skip this kind of monitor for that goal.


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## Stephen Rees (May 4, 2015)

Thanks for the advice Joram and to everyone else for sharing your experiences too. Appreciated!


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 21, 2021)

Stephen Rees said:


> I know.
> 
> Talking of which, I got those baby Genelecs by the way


The 8010a's?

How did you set them up? I think Genelec provides a desktop stand for them that directs them upwards)


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## Beat Kaufmann (Feb 22, 2021)

I also once believed that I had to have such Avantones...
As Dietz already mentioned above, they offer the advantage that you have no phase problems between the tweeter and the woofer even at close proximity _(see my picture below out of my tutorial)_.






...But that's just about all the advantages (my opinion). The frequency response is so miserable that I do not know how people want to hear out of the sound, which frequencies are still missing, whether the low range sounds "muddy" and all the other things you can read in feedback texts of the avantones. In any case, I personally could neither hear nor use all the positive things associated with the Avantones. In other words, the Avantones couldn't show anything better than my studio monitors do.

So if you need to sit close to speakers, I would rather try coaxial speakers. For the same price as the Avantones, you can get ones from Fluid...Tanoy... and of coarse even more expensive speakers from KS Digital.

Beat


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## Dietz (Feb 22, 2021)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> As Dietz already mentioned above, they offer the advantage that you have no phase problems between the tweeter and the woofer even at close proximity _(see my picture below out of my tutorial)_.



Good point! But actually, this is an additional problem to the one I addressed in that old posting of mine - namely the phase errors caused by the cross-overs of a two- or three-way speakers.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 22, 2021)

I only work on 1 set of speakers. Any more just result in confusion and doubt. The only other thing I use occasionally is headphones. Both for QC when I finish mastering and if I'm mixing something like a phone app where that's probably how it'll be heard (or phone speakers).


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## Beat Kaufmann (Feb 22, 2021)

Dietz said:


> The main benefit of full-range speakers like Auratones etc. is that they don't suffer from the typical (and system-inherent) crossover-induced phase-errors of two- or three-way speaker systems. This makes the "overall" balance and transient behaviour of a mix much clearer and therefor easier to judge.


Right that's different, the phase errors of the speaker crossovers. Sorry.


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## Dietz (Feb 22, 2021)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I only work on 1 set of speakers. Any more just result in confusion and doubt. The only other thing I use occasionally is headphones. Both for QC when I finish mastering and if I'm mixing something like a phone app where that's probably how it'll be heard (or phone speakers).


Mixing on one set of speakers only makes me tired, biased and a bit insecure after a while. 8-) ... to each his own.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 22, 2021)

Dietz said:


> Mixing on one set of speakers only makes me tired, biased and a bit insecure after a while. 8-) ... to each his own.


Then you need better speakers (or rather speakers that work better for you)! You should have no doubt about what you're hearing. The only reason I ever listen on headphones is in case I'm not sure about something and want to hear it on something that's less detailed. In most cases I end up not hearing the small details I'm questioning at all so I know that it's something I can stop tweaking.

I never get tired of listening to my speakers and feel like I need to have something else to keep working. Obviously I need to take breaks (I try to get 10 minutes every hour). Having other speakers definitely wouldn't get rid of the need to take breaks.

Right now I have a small temporary studio set up elsewhere that I'm working out of and in this case yes, I am using both speakers and headphones extensively since I can't trust what I'm getting from the speakers (mostly because this room isn't great). I do have a lot of insecurity when I'm working. In a properly set up room there should be no insecurity. What you hear is what's there. I'd recommend checking out the Meyer Bluehorn video with John Powell. The things that John mention there are exactly what you should expect from your system. 

Good speakers won't have any "crossover-induced phase-errors." The only thing that you could consider a problem is from it having multiple points of radiation but that only affects the off axis response which in a studio environment doesn't have too much of an effect at the listening position. Sharper slopes help minimize that. IMO having multiple drivers and off-axis irregularities far outweigh using a single full range driver since those introduce many other problems. Having a single driver that does, say, 80Hz - 20kHz is impossible while maintaining good dispersion so you basically end up with a worse off-axis response than with multiple drivers. It's just physics. Can't get around it.

Theoretically the ideal case would be coaxial drivers so that you essentially have a point source and multiple drivers but unfortunately the practical implementation of those leads to compromises in either the low or high frequency driver.


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## Dietz (Feb 22, 2021)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Then you need better speakers (or rather speakers that work better for you)! [...] Obviously I need to take breaks (I try to get 10 minutes every hour).


No doubt about that, but sadly that's not how Real Life (or at least my life) works. 

As soon as I'm hired to record or mix somewhere in a studio, or as soon as I rent a studio for a certain production, speakers aren't my decision, and there's rarely enough time to stick to the 50/10 minutes rule. Bringing in speakers for a few days is meaningless too, of course. - During the years I've developed some routine to adapt to new listening environments quickly. Having two or three (meaningful) monitoring systems helps a lot.

Apart from that, it's not just about _me_ in the studio. Clients, artists, producers, assistants, significant others ... they all have different hearing habits and expectations, and they can't permanently share the sweet spot in front of the console with me. Switching the monitoring system is sometimes all it needs to avoid irritations.



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Good speakers won't have any "crossover-induced phase-errors."


This could be argued. :-D In my simple audio engineering world, a filter either changes phase, or it changes time. ... But I openly admit that speaker design has never been my forte, so I'm not going to get into a discussion with you on this subject, in which you are obviously well versed.


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## Tim_Wells (Feb 22, 2021)

I'm curious about these. Similar concept, but really more of a full range speaker with a high quality sound.

SUPER CUBES 5

I'm goin only by reports. I've never tried them. In fact... here's what I'm basing that on.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 22, 2021)

Dietz said:


> As soon as I'm hired to record or mix somewhere in a studio, or as soon as I rent a studio for a certain production, speakers aren't my decision, and there's rarely enough time to stick to the 50/10 minutes rule. Bringing in speakers for a few days is meaningless too, of course. - During the years I've developed some routine to adapt to new listening environments quickly. Having two or three (meaningful) monitoring systems helps a lot.
> 
> Apart from that, it's not just about _me_ in the studio. Clients, artists, producers, assistants, significant others ... they all have different hearing habits and expectations, and they can't permanently share the sweet spot in front of the console with me. Switching the monitoring system is sometimes all it needs to avoid irritations.


Those would definitely be cases where having multiple systems would be good. I've had to mix (although I refuse to master) in other studios and that's always a challenge. If I had to do it more then I would probably just learn to work on headphones so that I could always have those with me to check things on. 

IMO a studio intended for having many people in the room should have good listening positions all around the room and the mains system should deliver great sound all around the room (should be the only speakers you need) but unfortunately rooms like that are rare.


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## John Longley (Mar 6, 2021)

Dietz said:


> The main benefit of full-range speakers like Auratones etc. is that they don't suffer from the typical (and system-inherent) crossover-induced phase-errors of two- or three-way speaker systems. This makes the "overall" balance and transient behaviour of a mix much clearer and therefor easier to judge.


And they’re sealed. That combo makes for great transient response.


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## AudioLoco (Mar 6, 2021)

Really useful. 
I got one of them for checking on "chocked" frequency-limited mono in addition to my main 2 sets.
Before that I used to check on crappy multimedia speakers.

I think having one extra limited, consumer level monitoring is a great way of checking mixes.
Doesn't HAVE to be Auratones, just any set you know well.


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