# Loudness war even in film soundtracks 2019?



## SimonViklund (Nov 6, 2019)

I don't despise Junkie XL the way many other media composers seem to do. I realize his music isn't as melodic and sophisticated as movie soundtracks used to be (at least not sophisticated in the same way), and he has kind of become the poster boy for the modern movie soundtracks which are all quite anonymous and pretty much interchangeable, focusing too much on spectacle: Driving string ostinatos, drums and sound design. What the hell, I still enjoy a lot of his work and have the utmost respect for his skills!

BUT! It's _not_ okay to push your mix so hard against a brickwall limiter so that the drum transients become completely distorted. Listen to the attached clip form the end of the first track on the "Terminator: Dark Fate" OST, called "Terminated." These three seconds are sampled from Spotify Premium with the streaming quality set to "Very High". I realize this isn't the best representation of any music, but it shouldn't sound like this anywhere. The last drum transient heard in the clip is just broken. And yes, it's probably not even Tom Holkenborg himself that mastered the soundtrack - but it's appalling nonetheless.

Sorry, I was just so horrified I had to vent.


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 6, 2019)

...I mean _listen to it!_

*cries in fetal position*


----------



## synkrotron (Nov 6, 2019)

I listened.

Sound Design?


----------



## synkrotron (Nov 6, 2019)

sounded okay on YouTube...


----------



## synkrotron (Nov 6, 2019)

I opened both files in Sound Forge.

How did you "sample" these?


----------



## CGR (Nov 6, 2019)

Given it's for a Terminator film, maybe it was intentional? As Synkrotron (sounds like a Cyborg!) said above "Sound Design".


----------



## Denkii (Nov 6, 2019)

Maybe it's Spotify's normalization at work?
Maybe the mixdown wasn't meant to be for streaming?
There could be a lot of factors for human error. Stuff happens.


----------



## Alex Niedt (Nov 6, 2019)

Just sounds pushed too hard (like the typical trailer music treatment). There's nothing that sounds like intention or sound design about that in context, to me. All it does is hurt the potential transient impact of what are supposed to be big hits. Sounds like it's happening at the buss level rather than the track level (as it likely would for a "sound design" choice). Also, Spotify would turn this track down. It wouldn't bring an already mega-loud track up and clip its peaks.

Whenever this topic comes up in a group or forum, most people rush to the "they must have meant to do that" defense, because people don't believe the guys at the top make mistakes or go overboard sometimes. The reality is when you talk to even the tip-top engineers in private, they'll gladly tell you, "Oh man, I totally screwed that one up. Can't even listen to it now." Or, "They wanted it crazy loud and that's as clean as I could get it at that level. My hands were tied."

With all of this said, 99% of people won't notice or care because people have become so accustomed to, shall we say... "hyped" dynamic processing practices. Also, what do I know? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 6, 2019)

synkrotron said:


> I opened both files in Sound Forge.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you "sample" these?



Using Audacity to record the sounds being played in Windows, as I played back the music in Spotify on my PC.



synkrotron said:


> sounded okay on YouTube...



No, in fact it sounds exactly as horrible on YouTube, and I believe just like @Alex Niedt that this is not intentional sound design but poor mastering. Here are links with timestamps for the two segments I recorded from Spotify:


----------



## shawnsingh (Nov 6, 2019)

At AES NYC this year, there was a session given by Tom Fleischman, and the loudness wars conversation came up. People were saying that the movie industry is stuck in their own kind of loudness war because theaters turn down the volume as soon as customers start complaining that the sound is too loud. So many theaters are actually playing quieter than intended calibrated levels. As a result directors and other production folks start asking the mixing and mastering engineers to push the volume louder on their side - where dynamics need to be squashed in order to push loudness.

Maybe the examples you posted here have the same problem?


----------



## Jeremy Gillam (Nov 6, 2019)

Actually, I believe JXL does master his own scores for all intents and purposes. I'm not sure about any final massaging for a soundtrack release, but he does all his own mixing and is definitely slamming stuff at that stage, based on what he shows on YouTube. But I don't think this is representative of the entire industry or where it is going, it's just his taste. I recently used JXL's London Suite from Mortal Engines and HZ's Man of Steel sketchbook as mastering reference for a project I did. The JXL stuff was WAY loud, but Hans/Alan Meyerson still had plenty of dynamics in the MOS piece, which was conceived for a similarly action-y movie. 

Volume normalization on streaming platforms has almost done away with with the need for Loudness Wars, and from what I've read mastering engineers are beginning to take note and back off a bit. Even pop masters are becoming a bit less aggressive. I usually don't use the loudness normalization feature on Spotify, but when I was trying it out I did notice some bad distortion on the Interstellar soundtrack, presumable caused but some information jammed into the low end that was triggering Spotify's limiter. The point being that it was getting turned up rather than turned down. Dyanmics aren't dead yet...


----------



## Henu (Nov 6, 2019)

Those clips in Simons examples aren't sound design, it's only bad limiting and clearly distinguishable.


----------



## Jeremy Gillam (Nov 6, 2019)

Actually, I regret trying to engage seriously in this thread. Tom Holkenborg is going to be as loud as possible, that is the whole fucking point. Why act surprised?


----------



## DS_Joost (Nov 7, 2019)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Actually, I regret trying to engage seriously in this thread. Tom Holkenborg is going to be as loud as possible, that is the whole fucking point. Why act surprised?



Because what you are hearing isn't loudness, that last transient just distorts. And not the pleasant kind of distortion, but louder-than-0db-digital-distortion.

This has nothing to do with loudness. It really is just distortion. Junkie XL knows, he's talented enough. He propably just doesn't give a ****.

Sorry, not trying to be mean but those who can't hear it should propably stay very, very clear of ever mixing their own stuff.


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 7, 2019)

shawnsingh said:


> At AES NYC this year, there was a session given by Tom Fleischman, and the loudness wars conversation came up. People were saying that the movie industry is stuck in their own kind of loudness war because theaters turn down the volume as soon as customers start complaining that the sound is too loud. So many theaters are actually playing quieter than intended calibrated levels. As a result directors and other production folks start asking the mixing and mastering engineers to push the volume louder on their side - where dynamics need to be squashed in order to push loudness.
> 
> Maybe the examples you posted here have the same problem?


That doesn't make any sense - that isn't going to stop audiences members from complaining. The audience isn't aware of the volume setting in the cinema's control room. They're not thinking "I feel like this movie is too loud - but I know the volume slider is set to quite low - so I must be mistaken, and therefore I tolerate these loud sounds."

Audience members are still going to complain and the only result is that it is now an audio mix with _less dynamics_ that is played at a _lower volume_.

Regarding Spotify, they made it so that nothing plays louder than -14 integrated LUFS, right? Anything mastered louder than that will be played back in Spotify at a lower volume so that the end result still ends up being -14 integrated LUFS, effectively taking away the loudness that those mastering engineers forced into their masters. In other words, those songs will be "punished" by not being louder than anything else, only have less dynamics, essentially sounding worse than other songs on the platform. It forces mastering engineers to adapt - I think that's commendable by Spotify. I know it's changed _my_ behavior when I master my own stuff to put on Spotify.


----------



## I like music (Nov 7, 2019)

DS_Joost said:


> Sorry, not trying to be mean but those who can't hear it should propably stay very, very clear of ever mixing their own stuff.



Actually this is an interesting point. I have no horse in this particular race, but I do feel I have 0 idea of mastering (the point behind it, which there clearly is). To the point that had I heard this example, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. Clearly not something I'm trained to look out for. Any good resources on where to begin?

I'm basically trying to learn to compose and orchestrate, so I've never felt that mastering is something that I should bother with. But absolutely every single person talks about it, so I guess I need to have at least some idea. Any pointers, massively appreciated!


----------



## synkrotron (Nov 7, 2019)

@I like music 

Mastering is a Black Art.

I say that because I know for a fact that professional Mastering Engineers would not even blink at the thought of spending upwards of 100k on hardware and room treatment. Speakers alone can come to half of that cost.

And then there is the training and experience... Developing that "Golden Ear."

So when most of us here talk about "mastering" we mean getting our material to a point where it is going to at least hold up against other stuff on the interwebs.

And then before mastering comes mixing. As the saying goes, you can't polish a turd. So it is important that you get the mix right.

And mixing is not just about faffing with instrument levels. It's also about watching (or more importantly, listening) for building resonances across the frequency range.


As has been mentioned, Spotify have a system in place to manage perceived loudness. And they are not the only ones, so a little bit of research into that is a good starting point.

LUFS is the thing lately. I have been working to LUFS levels myself for the last couple of years first of all experimenting with hitting -18 LUFS Integrated and finally settling on -16 LUFS Integrated, because I think that it suits what I create. I also ensure that everything is below -1dB "True Peak."

This is an old article, before LUFS became a thing:-

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/audio-mastering-in-your-computer
Worth a skim over I think.

And then have a look at what Spotify say about "mastering and loudness"






Spotify for Artists


Get more out of Spotify with tools & tips for artists and their teams.




artists.spotify.com







Having said all the above, I would suggest that while you are getting to grips with stuff, as long as your renders are -1dB True Peak then you are going to be okay posting stuff for peeps to critique. To that end you could put a limiter on the master buss... Not to squash levels, just to tame.


Well, that's my two pence. Hopefully the Experts here will chip in with better advice than I can furnish you with.


cheers

andy


----------



## I like music (Nov 7, 2019)

synkrotron said:


> @I like music
> 
> Mastering is a Black Art.
> 
> ...



Super helpful and gives me something to bite into! Thanks a ton!


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 7, 2019)

@I like music I don't have any online tutorials or texts about mastering to recommend, but for this particular example (your inability to hear how the audio is squashed in the examples I gave from the Terminator: Dark Fate soundtrack) I can describe what you should be listening for: Listen to the clip I attached to my second post in this thread (that one is even more obviouis than the first one) - listen to it over and over.

Do you hear how the bass takes over for a fraction of a second in those sounds - and information in the other frequency ranges (mid-range and treble) is being suppressed, creating this feeling of the sound "fluttering"? That is because the sound is being compressed and/or limited too severely.

Basically the entire mix - containing bass, mid and treble - is being pushed against a limiter, flattening the curves of the sound wave. When the sound is pushed far enough beyond the gain limit that the limiter is set to allow through, the sound wave will lose all detailed information (the mid-range and treble) at its very loudest parts, and the effect is a "square wave" (see the attached screenshot where I've highlighted those bits). The fractions of seconds that those square waves are played back are void of mid range and treble - you can only really make out the lowest frequencies - causing the sound to "flutter".


----------



## I like music (Nov 7, 2019)

SimonViklund said:


> I don't despise Junkie XL the way many other media composers seem to do. I realize his music isn't as melodic and sophisticated as movie soundtracks used to be (at least not sophisticated in the same way), and he has kind of becomem the poster boy for the modern movie soundtracks which are all quite anonymous and pretty much interchangeable, focusing too much on spectacle: Driving string ostinatos, drums and sound design. Despite all this, I enjoy a lot of his work.
> 
> BUT! It's _not_ okay to push your mix so hard against a brickwall limiter so that the drum transients become completely distorted. Listen to the attached clip form the end of the first track on the "Terminator: Dark Fate" OST, called "Terminated." These three seconds are sampled from Spotify Premium with the streaming quality set to "Very High". I realize this isn't the best representation of any music, but it shouldn't sound like this anywhere. The last drum transient heard in the clip is just broken. And yes, it's probably not even Tom Holkenborg himself that mastered the soundtrack - but it's appalling nonetheless.
> 
> Sorry, I was just so horrified I had to vent.





SimonViklund said:


> @I like music I don't have any online tutorials or texts about mastering to recommend, but for this particular example (your inability to hear how the audio is squashed in the examples I gave from the Terminator: Dark Fate soundtrack) I can describe what you should be listening for: Listen to the clip I attached to my second post in this thread (that one is even more obviouis than the first one) - listen to it over and over.
> 
> Do you hear how the bass takes over for a fraction of a second in those sounds - and information in the other frequency ranges (mid-range and treble) is being suppressed, creating this feeling of the sound "fluttering"? That is because the sound is being compressed and/or limited too severely.
> 
> Basically the entire mix - containing bass, mid and treble - is being pushed against a limiter, flattening the curves of the sound wave. When the sound is pushed far enough beyond the gain limit that the limiter is set to allow through, the sound wave will lose all detailed information (the mid-range and treble) at its very loudest parts, and the effect is a "square wave" (see the attached screenshot where I've highlighted those bits). The fractions of seconds that those square waves are played back are void of mid range and treble - you can only really make out the lowest frequencies - causing the sound to "flutter".



I shouldn't have listened through my laptop speakers in the first instance! I understand the concept now. But as I wasn't sure exactly what instrument I was listening to (this might have had to do with the fact that the problems you describe mean that my mind can't quite 'compare' it to a natural sound). That said, I'll check on proper speakers and look at what you said! Thanks for the detail


----------



## Joël Dollié (Nov 7, 2019)

Ew that's some bad clipping. Bit of a shame, these kinds of drums sound best when they're punchy.


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 7, 2019)

Listen to the very first transient in the beginning of first track of the "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" soundtrack; "Beautiful Lie" by Hans Zimmer. Imagine coming out of the gate right there on the first note of the entire album with that sort of distortion/clipping. *shudders*


----------



## lumcas (Nov 7, 2019)

This thread gets me right back to the year 1999 when I bought RHCHP Californication CD. All the transients were chopped off on the entire thing, well actually there were no transients, just a square wave and I couldn't believe that a band like this could release such a shitty master. Well, at least I got my refund. Interestingly, I bought the CD again some 10 years after the release and it sounded great...


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 7, 2019)

lumcas said:


> This thread gets me right back to the year 1999 when I bought RHCHP Californication CD. All the transients were chopped off on the entire thing, well actually there were no transients, just a square wave and I couldn't believe that a band like this could release such a shitty master. Well, at least I got my refund. Interestingly, I bought the CD again some 10 years after the release and it sounded great...


RHCP's "Californication" is infamous as the crown jewel of the loudness war.

I'm curious: When you say the album sounded great 10 years later - had the it been remastered, or had your perception/acceptance of what was considered a good master changed over the years?


----------



## Henu (Nov 7, 2019)

SimonViklund said:


> RHCP's "Californication" is infamous as the crown jewel of the loudness war.



http://productionadvice.co.uk/taylor-swift-loudness/ (Metallica disagrees).


----------



## synkrotron (Nov 7, 2019)

Henu said:


> http://productionadvice.co.uk/taylor-swift-loudness/ (Metallica disagrees).



That's actually a good website to keep bookmarked...


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 7, 2019)

Henu said:


> http://productionadvice.co.uk/taylor-swift-loudness/ (Metallica disagrees).


 "Crown jewel" might have been the wrong expression, I meant to say it is considered by many to be the album that marked the beginning of the loudness war - and Metallica is apparently still at war, digging the trenches and ecalating the conflict!


----------



## shawnsingh (Nov 7, 2019)

SimonViklund said:


> That doesn't make any sense - that isn't going to stop audiences members from complaining. The audience isn't aware of the volume setting in the cinema's control room. They're not thinking "I feel like this movie is too loud - but I know the volume slider is set to quite low - so I must be mistaken, and therefore I tolerate these loud sounds."
> 
> Audience members are still going to complain and the only result is that it is now an audio mix with _less dynamics_ that is played at a _lower volume_.



I don't think this contradicts what I was saying... Less dynamics is indeed the outcome of loudness wars. I wasn't saying that anything would stop audiences from complaining or that they need any technical understanding.

But also, I don't really feel strongly whether "movie theater loudness wars" is the underlying explanation or not.


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 7, 2019)

shawnsingh said:


> I don't think this contradicts what I was saying... Less dynamics is indeed the outcome of loudness wars. I wasn't saying that anything would stop audiences from complaining or that they need any technical understanding.
> 
> But also, I don't really feel strongly whether "movie theater loudness wars" is the underlying explanation or not.


I meant it doesn't make sense from the position of the film makers, to believe that the audiences will stop complaining - and that the cinemas will stop lowering the volume of their speakers - if the mix of the movie is louder.


----------



## shawnsingh (Nov 7, 2019)

Ah, I understand what you mean now. 

I agree it doesn't make sense when we understand both sides of the issue. I guess filmmaker's perspective and theater's perspective are both incorrect because of missing information on each side. And the mixing/mastering engineers are in a position to see both sides, stuck in the middle trying to spread awareness to both sides, but spreading awareness and asking for collective good faith on both sides is hard.


----------



## rudi (Nov 7, 2019)

Great discussion with some really good contributions and links.

Here is a good explanation of how the "Loudness War" developed, and how it gave rise to extreme distortion and very poor dynamic ranges:



In brief it was the result of the confluence of:

- the way our ears/brain don't perceive all frequencies equally

- the advent of digital audio, and being able to manipulate perceived loudness to a far more extreme degree than was possible with analogue

- and above all wanting to make your tracks sound louder / more exciting than your rivals.

I am very glad that we have moved on, and some standards (TU 1770 / LUFS) were agreed to stymie those digital tactics .


----------



## Consona (Nov 7, 2019)

SimonViklund said:


> Listen to the very first transient in the beginning of first track of the "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" soundtrack; "Beautiful Lie" by Hans Zimmer. Imagine coming out of the gate right there on the first note of the entire album with that sort of distortion/clipping. *shudders*


Was about to mention this piece. When I heard it I was like... Wow, is this even allowed? 

I don't even know how they mix it to make that wall of sound, yet let things feel separated. I remember Alan Meyerson doing an hour long Wonder Woman mixing session, f*** Wonder Woman  give me a Man of Steel or BvS mixing session, that stuff is insane. It's interesting to follow the path from Batman Begins, when things sounded kinda normal, to Batman v Superman, which is this huge full soundassault. Like I can make my HZ Zebra patches sound like The Dark Knight, but no way anywhere near MoS or BvS soundtracks. The sound's so upped and over-hyped, it's crazy.
This kind of movie scoring is more like a mixing exercise.


----------



## jononotbono (Nov 7, 2019)

synkrotron said:


> 100k on hardware and room treatment



A Mastering Engineer I work with has 2 Speaker cables that cost $19k made of pure Silver (Absolutely zero latency - and timing is everything in Mastering). Each are plugged into a pair of mono amps that cost $50k each. I won't even get into the Speakers, any of the rack gear or specific room built. Haha!

You're absolutely right but WAY under budget. The professional mastering world is a mad world.


----------



## Steve Wheeler (Nov 7, 2019)

One spot where I think making the limiter basically eat shit sounds decent is in a metal context with sub drops. Strapping Young Lad's "Alien" has a million of these (maybe even too many haha).


----------



## jononotbono (Nov 7, 2019)

Polkasound said:


> "Ah, yes, I'd recognize his mastering work anywhere," said the only other person in the world who listens to music through $19,000 speaker cables and dual $50,000 amplifiers.



Ah yes, time for me to leave this thread immediately. Cheers.


----------



## Henu (Nov 7, 2019)

Don't get angry, Polkasound does have a point. I work regularly with the best mastering engineers in Finland, and while the stuff they have is shit-expensive, nobody has put 19k to two speaker cables. Speakers? Possible. Cables, never. That would just insane. Good cables _do_ cost money, but there's a limit on everything.

Because even if those cables would had been made of dragon's tears, mithril and kryptonite by the great dwarven wizards of Yog-Sothoth, there's no way you can actually up the manufacturing costs of a _speaker cable_ that high that the price could be justified. And no professional would sink 19k for something they would be aware being a complete rip-off.


----------



## Steve Wheeler (Nov 7, 2019)

There's definitely a lot of back and forth over whether super expensive cables actually improve the sound at all. Haven't seen a lot of actual blind testing or even scientific measurement to support much of either side. Just a lot of anecdotal stuff. Would be interesting to actually see some extensive studies (but then again, maybe I've just not seen them).


----------



## GtrString (Nov 7, 2019)

In film/tv, blanket statements of something sounding good in general isn’t valid. It’s all about being appropriate for the intended use. It’s not designed to be a casual listening piece, but a track that is used in dense action scenes, and both has to cut through the media mix and underscore a robot creating inferno. I think smashing the mix with that premise is appropriate use of the effect. “Liking it“ is just not a relevant evaluation criteria here.


----------



## Uiroo (Nov 13, 2019)

Really strange "sizzling" noise here.
Is it just me or is that also clipping? Right at 6:00


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 13, 2019)

@Uiroo Yeah that's ugly - I can't imagine that's intentional.


----------



## Consona (Nov 13, 2019)

Seems like clipping. Or maybe there's some saturation on some instrument which went sizzling due to high dynamics.


----------



## Uiroo (Nov 13, 2019)

Really strange. Would really surprise me if that's intentional.


----------



## Consona (Nov 13, 2019)

Probably not and noone except us cares.


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 18, 2019)

Consona said:


> noone except us cares.


The thought of that makes me sad.


----------



## Consona (Nov 18, 2019)

SimonViklund said:


> The thought of that makes me sad.


Like... what can you do? Go around twitter and youtube, raising public awareness about mixing and mastering? 

It's like me ranting about getting from Goldsmith, Horner, Herrmann and Williams to Giacchino and Tyler. Not many people care. Look at the Universal Theme video from Tyler, that composition is a fricking travesty, and people comment there that it's a masterpiece. What can you do about that? People are used to crippled music, they don't listen to Dvorak, Mozart or Wagner, they listen to pop and hip hop and whatnot, then some bad distortion in a mix or extremely bad composition is something they just can't register.


----------



## Fredeke (Nov 19, 2019)

My media laptop's jack output as well as its speakers are way too quiet. So I wouldn't mind a little loudness war in film soundtracks


----------



## Consona (Nov 25, 2019)

A comparison between Batman v Superman and Man of Steel action music. BvS is way more loudness warzy than MoS. I mean... just look at that compression level.  MoS sound is way more open and detailed, BvS sound is this dense behemoth.


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 25, 2019)

Wow and yuck! I can undertand striving for that denseness (and accepting that low dynamic range) in EDM music, but in a film soundtrack? Insane!

I understand it's mastered differently for the soundtrack release from how it's mixed in the film itself, but still!


----------



## VinRice (Nov 27, 2019)

Tom mixes his own stuff, but only to stems (and lots of them). There's still a couple of mix engineers after that in the chain and they will be under the strong influence (and physical presence) of the director and producers. It's even quite possible that the soundtrack album was mixed by yet another engineer.

Somebody clearly screwed up.


----------



## shawnsingh (Nov 27, 2019)

Consona said:


> A comparison between BvS and MoS action music. BvS is way more loudness warzy than MoS. I mean... just look at that compression level.  MoS sound is way more open and detailed, BvS sound is this dense behemoth.



MoS = which movie, I can't figure out this acronym


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 27, 2019)

shawnsingh said:


> MoS = which movie, I can't figure out this acronym


Man of Steel


----------



## shawnsingh (Nov 27, 2019)

SimonViklund said:


> Man of Steel



Ah, I should have been able to get that...


----------



## Fredeke (Nov 27, 2019)

Consona said:


> A comparison between BvS and MoS action music. BvS is way more loudness warzy than MoS. I mean... just look at that compression level.  MoS sound is way more open and detailed, BvS sound is this dense behemoth.


What do BvS and MoS stand for ?


----------



## SimonViklund (Nov 27, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> What do BvS and MoS stand for ?


"Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" and "Man of Steel" respectively.


----------



## Uiroo (Nov 27, 2019)

VinRice said:


> Tom mixes his own stuff, but only to stems (and lots of them). There's still a couple of mix engineers after that in the chain and they will be under the strong influence (and physical presence) of the director and producers. It's even quite possible that the soundtrack album was mixed by yet another engineer.
> 
> Somebody clearly screwed up.


Considering how much music he mixed in his life and on what level I'd guess that's what actually happened. 
I find it hard to imagine he'd do that on purpose or by mistake.


----------



## Consona (Nov 27, 2019)

@shawnsingh @Fredeke My apologies. I've edited the original post.


----------



## synthetic (Dec 4, 2019)

I believe In one of his “Studio Time” tutorials for Terminator he puts L3 maximizer on his drum buss. Which surprised me but he wasn’t hitting it super hard. It did square off the transients though. Could explain the distortion. And yes, he says he mixes his films himself. 

He does have THE most aggressive drum sound though so I can’t fault him too much. And listening to the first examples again, I think it’s intentional.


----------



## gussunkri (Dec 5, 2019)

Since Tom has now joined the forum I guess he could answer himself.


----------



## Uiroo (Dec 5, 2019)

gussunkri said:


> Since Tom has now joined the forum I guess he could answer himself.


Yeah right! @Real JXL would you mind sharing if this was intentional?


----------



## synthetic (Dec 8, 2019)

Here is where he talks about using L3 on his drum stem (17:54.)



I recommend watching this video and Studio Time season 1 to see his drum mixing techniques. I still have a lot to learn from those.

Remember he's trying to cut through literally thousands of tracks of sound effects with his score, mixed by the guy who cut those sound effects. So while it might sound weird in isolation, imagine a tractor trailer exploding in the foreground and maybe it works better this way.


----------



## Henu (Dec 8, 2019)

Dither on? Why the hell?


----------



## synthetic (Dec 8, 2019)

Oh like you’re gonna hear dither on or off in that track. 

I played with Xfer OTT on my drum buss, which is a free version of L3. It’s really fun. Even if you set the mix to 15% wet it really cracks the drum stem.


----------



## Consona (Dec 9, 2019)

synthetic said:


> I played with Xfer OTT on my drum buss, which is a free version of L3.


Well, I wouldn't say so. I have both and L3 sounds very different to OTT. Plus L3 has 2 more bands and adjustable frequency ranges.


----------



## ThomasNL (Dec 9, 2019)

We do have to remember that Tom was a very big EDM producer in the middle of the loudness war, so i think he very much used to making bradwurst out of his tracks


----------



## Sly (Dec 10, 2019)

@SimonViklund thanks for posting this and the explanation. Whilst I understood the theory it was great to have someone put up a couple of examples. I also am new to production (though not to playing) and 'training' my ear to be more sensitive to hear these things.


----------



## Jerry Growl (Feb 10, 2020)

An absolute must-see for anyone interested in mastering, loudness or getting your music be heard the right way on streaming sites:

The future of Mastering


----------



## Consona (Feb 22, 2020)

Jerry Growl said:


> An absolute must-see for anyone interested in mastering, loudness or getting your music be heard the right way on streaming sites:
> 
> The future of Mastering



Went here just to post this.

Isn't it so funny and f***ing poetic?




All that over-compression madness for the maximum loudness made the old more dynamic records actually sound louder.






Sooooooo good to know you can, and probably should, have nicely dynamic music in this day and age. Limiting and compression should be seen as a stylistic choice and not a loudness weapon.

With that example of his, how limiters crunch the sound awfully, I'm glad to know I don't have to use them at all while mastering, actually. I know I will be using L3 for achieving some specific sound I'm after while mixing, but there's no need to master-squash mixes, I don't think I'll cut even 1 db when finalizing a piece now, so it doesn't introduce those foul artefacts... Which will be introduced by every platform while downgrading your wav to 128 mp3 anyway.


----------



## Fredeke (Feb 22, 2020)

Consona said:


> Went here just to post this.
> 
> Isn't it so funny and f***ing poetic?
> 
> ...


Thanks for summarizing it 
I was being too lazy too watch the whole video 

I too use the L3 to "clean" the master. However it sounds digital (for whatever it means) past a certain point, and more modern alternatives have been proposed in this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/alternatives-to-waves.90086/ . I still need to check them out.


----------



## John Longley (Feb 22, 2020)

If I listen to any of his YT content (he mixed), it is saturated, VERY bright and kind of grating. I think he is a talented composer, but not everybody should mix their own stuff. When I do watch his channel, it's definitely not for audio tips, but I enjoy his openness about his workflow, the passion he has for music and great new sounds and his next-level synth collection doesn't bother hurt either. In terms of the loudness, it always comes down to fear. Fear that if you aren't louder (or often brighter) the average joe won't feel it. This seems foolish at first blush, but I see how many artists get uncomfortable at mastering time after they have stated "we don't care about loudness" and then quietly want it at -9 LUFS. It seems to be more prevalent in more aggressive genres, and I think film composers fall into similar traps based on their genre. 

JXL is a gracious guy from what I can tell, with a pretty level head and sincerely seems to like sharing-- so I can forgive him for the grating mixes.


----------



## shawnsingh (Feb 23, 2020)

John Longley said:


> Fear that if you aren't louder (or often brighter) the average joe won't feel it. This seems foolish at first blush, but I see how many artists get uncomfortable at mastering time after they have stated "we don't care about loudness" and then quietly want it at -9 LUFS. It seems to be more prevalent in more aggressive genres, and I think film composers fall into similar traps based on their genre.



Sadly this it not just a misconception that is causing fear. It is a very real thing that people gravitate more to the "louder" thing and more quickly leave the quieter one. But, like Silverman says in that video, loudness normalization can flip the scenario about what feels louder, and arguably it flips in a positive way, where the feeling of loudness depends on musical details like transients and timbre, instead of depending on which song can get the biggest digital RMS.


----------



## Consona (Feb 23, 2020)

Fredeke said:


> Thanks for summarizing it
> I was being too lazy too watch the whole video
> 
> I too use the L3 to "clean" the master. However it sounds digital (for whatever it means) past a certain point, and more modern alternatives have been proposed in this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/alternatives-to-waves.90086/ . I still need to check them out.


You really should watch the video.  My post was not much of a summarization but just a comment on it. What I didn't mention was the main point, that levels and loudness are two different things and that by all those platforms introducing normalization at like -14 LUFS (or whatever), they actually made compressed music less loud, because at the same LUFS level, more dynamic music has higher peaks than over-compressed pieces. Now you don't have to watch the video. 

I don't use L3 for mastering because the multiband nature changes a lot of balance you create in the mix. To cut off the peaks, it's better to use normal 1 band limiter, but as you see, you don't have to do it at all. As I said, I use L3 only when mixing, basically as an ultra-multi-band-compressor, when I want more tight rather hyped sound.


----------



## Bluemount Score (Feb 23, 2020)

And then, there are people like me how sometimes have a hard time to even reach those -14 LUFS...
I can't stand it at all if my dynamics are being audibly crushed by a "master" limiter.


----------



## Jon W (Feb 23, 2020)

synkrotron said:


> I listened.
> 
> Sound Design?


What does that mean? For us newbs.


----------



## JEPA (Feb 23, 2020)

I mix and master all to -23 LUFS -1dB Peak for Picture. The last documentary sounds really good without any over compression:
https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/076599-000-A/deutschland-bei-nacht/


----------



## Greg (Feb 23, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> Really strange "sizzling" noise here.
> Is it just me or is that also clipping? Right at 6:00




Wow. I always felt like if I delivered something like that for trailers, the studio would cut my head off. Another irrational anxiety to cross off my list


----------



## Fredeke (Feb 24, 2020)

Consona said:


> I don't use L3 for mastering because the multiband nature changes a lot of balance you create in the mix. To cut off the peaks, it's better to use normal 1 band limiter, but as you see, you don't have to do it at all. As I said, I use L3 only when mixing, basically as an ultra-multi-band-compressor, when I want more tight rather hyped sound.


Then we mostly agree.


----------



## Uiroo (Feb 24, 2020)

Greg said:


> Wow. I always felt like if I delivered something like that for trailers, the studio would cut my head off. Another irrational anxiety to cross off my list


Well, I would if I were the studio :D


----------



## synkrotron (Feb 27, 2020)

Jon W said:


> What does that mean? For us newbs.



Erm, that what ever you hear was as per the producer's wishes, that is, his sound design.


----------

