# Master the Score Courses Quality



## MeloKeyz (Jul 5, 2022)

Hello Everyone,

I wanna collect your feedback on the said courses regarding its quality and the result you get out of them. I am interested on Randon Purcell's hybrid orchestral composition and Benny Oschmann's the art of virtual orchestration courses. 

To those who took these specific courses, kindly share your opinions, pros and cons.

Thanks


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 5, 2022)

Benny’s course hasn’t been released yet. I have Joel’s mixing course and Mattia’s orchestral writing course. Both are excellent - and even better, they are actively taking feedback and updating the courses with more material based on that. The Discord groups are great as the instructors are very active in them, answering questions.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 6, 2022)

By the way, Ryan Leach's course for Master the Score release on July 13th. It has THIRTEEN hours of content on composition techniques (counterpoint, form, harmony, accompaniment). If you've watched Ryan's videos or read his old articles (or taken private lessons with him like me), you'll know the level of quality to expect here.


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## MeloKeyz (Jul 6, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> By the way, Ryan Leach's course for Master the Score release on July 13th. It has THIRTEEN hours of content on composition techniques (counterpoint, form, harmony, accompaniment). If you've watched Ryan's videos or read his old articles (or taken private lessons with him like me), you'll know the level of quality to expect here.


Yes, I even participated in his competition a month ago so I know Ryan, his vids are cool


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## MeloKeyz (Jul 6, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Benny’s course hasn’t been released yet. I have Joel’s mixing course and Mattia’s orchestral writing course. Both are excellent - and even better, they are actively taking feedback and updating the courses with more material based on that. The Discord groups are great as the instructors are very active in them, answering questions.


Thanks bro


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## handz (Sep 17, 2022)

I just found out about this project and was really excited about some of the courses, but my god $600?? for a single online course? Sorry but this is ridiculous pricing, I would even say immoral, why the audio market is still so elitist? We finally get to an age of affordable sample libraries and software but we now getting courses for $600... This makes them totally unapproachable for the majority of people, especially beginners and medium advanced composers who would most benefit from them. Why do they not make it affordable and sell more courses? Really this is just wrong. I am sad as some of the courses there are made by people I really like (Matteo, Benny Oschmann). But no, I am not spending 1200 USD for 2 courses. And I am sad that some people support this. (and forcing the VI*Control to delete my comment from the official post because the OP didn't like it instead maybe a normal reaction trying to justify the pricing was really pathetic).


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## ed buller (Sep 17, 2022)

handz said:


> I just found out about this project and was really excited about some of the courses, but my god $600?? for a single online course? Sorry but this is ridiculous pricing, I would even say immoral, why the audio market is still so elitist? We finally get to an age of affordable sample libraries and software but we now getting courses for $600... This makes them totally unapproachable for the majority of people, especially beginners and medium advanced composers who would most benefit from them. Why do they not make it affordable and sell more courses? Really this is just wrong. I am sad as some of the courses there are made by people I really like (Matteo, Benny Oschmann). But no, I am not spending 1200 USD for 2 courses. And I am sad that some people support this. (and forcing the VI*Control to delete my comment from the official post because the OP didn't like it instead maybe a normal reaction trying to justify the pricing was really pathetic).


oh where to begin. I totally understand that you think this is expensive. But "immoral" ??. Respectfully that is too far. 

I have bought two courses. Mattia's and Ryan's. Both worth every penny. They are different with some overlap. But your anger is totally misplaced. These are NOT overpriced. One course is the same price as Spitfire Symphonic Strings ( not the professional one either !). If you are new to composing and music theory the course is a much smarter buy IMHO

best

ed


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## DivingInSpace (Sep 17, 2022)

handz said:


> I just found out about this project and was really excited about some of the courses, but my god $600?? for a single online course? Sorry but this is ridiculous pricing, I would even say immoral, why the audio market is still so elitist? We finally get to an age of affordable sample libraries and software but we now getting courses for $600... This makes them totally unapproachable for the majority of people, especially beginners and medium advanced composers who would most benefit from them.


There is soooo much high quality educational material out there for free by so many different amazing people. Ryan Leach has a youtube channel full of great videos that you can go watch right now, spitfire and orchestral tools has great serieses and different subjects like orchestration free on youtube, Alex Pfeffer has lots of great free stuff on youtube, and some nice courses for half the price or less compared to these, Mike Verta has cheap courses. 

There is SOOOO MUCH free material out there if you don't wanna pay at all, and lots of cheaper options too. For the price of Master the score courses, i personally haven't found them covering anything yet that i've wanted to pay that price for. I might eventually buy the Ryan Leach one as he is amazing at explaining compositional techniques though.

Sure, they are so expensive that a lot of people wouldn't be able to just buy them by taking out the money from their monthly pay, but if you have the patience to save up a bit, they don't seem very unreachable for most adults with a job.

I totally understand why your comment was removed from the original thread, it seems really hostile and not very constructive.


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## handz (Sep 17, 2022)

ed buller said:


> oh where to begin. I totally understand that you think this is expensive. But "immoral" ??. Respectfully that is too far.
> 
> I have bought two courses. Mattia's and Ryan's. Both worth every penny. They are different with some overlap. But your anger is totally misplaced. These are NOT overpriced. One course is the same price as Spitfire Symphonic Strings ( not the professional one either !). If you are new to composing and music theory the course is a much smarter buy IMHO
> 
> ...


600 USD for one online course is definitely not fair pricing. Maybe 10-15 years ago, but nowadays? Come on. For the price of two courses, you can get whole cinesamples orchestral libs bundle or HW OPUS or all 3 Cinematic Studio Libs! And this is what you REALLY need to do some work (apart from DAW, Computer, etc - which already is a huge investment) I assume you not stepping into this without any basic music composing skills, etc +You now have tons of free online resources where you can get very useful tips (even some of the course teachers provide very good, free learning videos). This wasn't available before but now it is. And I wonder, what costs more time, knowledge and money to make - a full orchestral library or a course - I know it is different but? And well, the libs are a super-saturated market, and not everyone needs all the libs, but such a course could be interesting to practically anyone in the music niche, sadly not with such price. How can any student, or beginning composer afford this? Actually, I doubt that the majority of people can afford to buy 4 courses for 2400 USD... This is just not cool.
BTW - Score club - 60 USD a month and you have access to big amount of great courses
Filmmusicnotes - usually around 100 USD per course
Master the Score - 540-600 per course.


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## handz (Sep 17, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> There is soooo much high quality educational material out there for free by so many different amazing people. Ryan Leach has a youtube channel full of great videos that you can go watch right now, spitfire and orchestral tools has great serieses and different subjects like orchestration free on youtube, Alex Pfeffer has lots of great free stuff on youtube, and some nice courses for half the price or less compared to these, Mike Verta has cheap courses.
> 
> There is SOOOO MUCH free material out there if you don't wanna pay at all, and lots of cheaper options too. For the price of Master the score courses, i personally haven't found them covering anything yet that i've wanted to pay that price for. I might eventually buy the Ryan Leach one as he is amazing at explaining compositional techniques though.
> 
> ...


My comment was not hostile at all, it was very constructive, honest and polite, deleting such comment is super shady practice. The price point is ridiculously high, especially considering you need to get more than one course if you are "starting", there is no student discount, not any bundle option - nothing. And yep few people from the courses provide free stuff on their channels which are really enough for anyone to start. As a follower of those people I would like to pay them for something extra but no thank you, not 600 USD. This is just elitist pricing targeted mostly on pros who already have enough money to spare on anything that comes out than on people who really need it.


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## DivingInSpace (Sep 17, 2022)

handz said:


> My comment was not hostile at all, it was very constructive, honest and polite, deleting such comment is super shady practice. The price point is ridiculously high, especially considering you need to get more than one course if you are "starting", there is no student discount, not any bundle option - nothing. And yep few people from the courses provide free stuff on their channels which are really enough for anyone to start. As a follower of those people I would like to pay them for something extra but no thank you, not 600 USD. This is just elitist pricing targeted mostly on pros who already have enough money to spare on anything that comes out than on people who really need it.


I of cause haven't seen your original comment, so i just assumed that it was simular to the one you posted here, sorry if that isn't the case.

There is absolutely no need to get multiple courses, even if you are just starting out. Just get whatever fits what you wanna learn, and do it like you did when you wanted something as a kid: save up. Then seek out free recourses for other stuff. Or go with one of the many other cheaper options out there if you don't like the price point. My point is that there are plenty of options out there that doesn't feed into the "audio market being elitist" argument, which you yourself seemed to dissprove with your own examples (all great recourses btw.)

I honestly don't see how the pricing can be imorral when what they are selling isn't a necesity that they have a monopoly on. Nobody NEEDS these courses. They are nice to have, but spend your money with the competition instead if you find their prices more fair for the product they deliver.


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## nik (Sep 17, 2022)

handz said:


> 600 USD for one online course is definitely not fair pricing. Maybe 10-15 years ago, but nowadays? Come on. For the price of two courses, you can get whole cinesamples orchestral libs bundle or HW OPUS or all 3 Cinematic Studio Libs! And this is what you REALLY need to do some work (apart from DAW, Computer, etc - which already is a huge investment) I assume you not stepping into this without any basic music composing skills, etc +You now have tons of free online resources where you can get very useful tips (even some of the course teachers provide very good, free learning videos). This wasn't available before but now it is. And I wonder, what costs more time, knowledge and money to make - a full orchestral library or a course - I know it is different but? And well, the libs are a super-saturated market, and not everyone needs all the libs, but such a course could be interesting to practically anyone in the music niche, sadly not with such price. How can any student, or beginning composer afford this? Actually, I doubt that the majority of people can afford to buy 4 courses for 2400 USD... This is just not cool.
> BTW - Score club - 60 USD a month and you have access to big amount of great courses
> Filmmusicnotes - usually around 100 USD per course
> Master the Score - 540-600 per course.


Hey there,

here are a few thoughts:

1) First of all our most expensive courses are priced at 499$. There might be VAT added depending on your location but that's nothing we have influence on. If you own a VAT ID then this is no issue.

2) All courses were on intro pricing for at least 20% off. On top of that we almost always offer loyalty discounts which brings the price down to another 10-15%.

3) Our teachers and the whole team put immense effort and time in carefully crafting and presenting our courses. They happily share all their knowledge and dispite being professional composers, they also spend lots of efforts in giving feedback and further guideance in our Discord group. Most of our course provide assignments and additional material like PDFs, scores, lead sheets and midi.

4) Since you posted in the Mixing Cinematic Music thread: this course is over 17 hours long, not mentioning an update which will soon follow.....

5) All our students are eligible for student discounts from many VST and plugin developers. This is not obv yet, but on our new website we will point it out.

All in all i think we really offer a lot of value and most of all a fair price to our students. I am sure that we cannot please everyone but we will definetly continue doing our best to provide some cool courses.

Best,
Nik


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 17, 2022)

Can vouch for MTS! Great value and material.


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## jbuhler (Sep 17, 2022)

Whether the pricing is fair or not depends a lot on what they offer beyond the course videos. Videos are akin to books and should, I would say, be priced accordingly. Books of this sort typically run in the $50-$200 range, depending on what's included (like recordings of musical examples will raise the price, as will extensive use of music that is under copyright, as fair use claims are complicated especially for textbooks). Some textbooks get very expensive, and $499 is priced at the highest end of that level. I'm not aware of any textbooks that are quite that expensive, but some are close once you factor in all workbooks and other supplements.

But if the courses offer any teaching content that is not recorded video—live sessions, grading of assignments, or other forms of direct (rather than machine generated) feedback—then the price becomes eminently reasonable. Just look into the cost of taking similar courses at a university as a point of comparison. That kind of thing requires ongoing real labor and so someone has to pay for it in some way.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Sep 17, 2022)

I never understood the passion by which some people complain about pricing. Nobody is forcing you to buy things, especially with so many readily available alternatives. Lots of free resources out there. Lots of books as well - used even. If you want to tell the time, you wouldn't act as if the only option was to buy a Rolex.

Laughable to state this is only accessible to pros. Plenty of people have the ability to buy things because they see the value in it (Ryan, Mattia, etc. are all providing feedback on your music and answering your questions in the community. To me, that was worth the price of entry alone). And professional composers should already be well versed in much of this material (if they're really worth their salt). It's not the role of content producers to dictate how people should budget. If you're "just starting out", do you immediately go buy a Steinway, the Spitfire Everything bundle, and Kii monitors?

People don't blink at spending hundreds on sample libraries - yet are outraged when it comes to spending that on education, which will prove far more valuable in the long run.


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 17, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I never understood the passion by which some people complain about pricing. Nobody is forcing you to buy things, especially with so many readily available alternatives. Lots of free resources out there. Lots of books as well - used even. If you want to tell the time, you wouldn't act as if the only option was to buy a Rolex.
> 
> Laughable to state this is only accessible to pros. Plenty of people have the ability to buy things because they see the value in it (Ryan, Mattia, etc. are all providing feedback on your music and answering your questions in the community. To me, that was worth the price of entry alone). And professional composers should already be well versed in much of this material (if they're really worth their salt). It's not the role of content producers to dictate how people should budget. If you're "just starting out", do you immediately go buy a Steinway, the Spitfire Everything bundle, and Kii monitors?
> 
> People don't blink at spending hundreds on sample libraries - yet are outraged when it comes to spending that on education, which will prove far more valuable in the long run.


+1

There are a many profesional composers and even more profesional complainers.



handz said:


> Sorry but this is ridiculous pricing, I would even say immoral, why the audio market is still so elitist? We finally get to an age of affordable sample libraries and software but we now getting courses for $600... This makes them totally unapproachable for the majority of people, especially beginners and medium advanced composers who would most benefit from them.



Elitist...inmoral...? It's their course, their creation. Inmoral how? Did they steal something or did they spend probably uncountable number of hours preparing it? Elitist? Is it elitist to value the cost of your work? Teaching is a job, don't forget that...and a very important one.

I'd recommend you to be more empathetic and think that you may have your struggles as a beginner or intermediate composer, but they may also have their own as teachers or business. No one is here to do you the "favour" of adjusting their price and their goals to your needs. It is their needs and goals what matters, it's a business. It's not a state funded course. It's not public university. It's not something made for the general public. It's just a private initiative.

Sorry but I found your message a bit egocentric.



handz said:


> BTW - Score club - 60 USD a month and you have access to big amount of great courses
> Filmmusicnotes - usually around 100 USD per course
> Master the Score - 540-600 per course.


Scoreclub costed around 150-200 eur per course before the subscription model and it's like 2 hours of content per course if I remember right. Master the score it's 9 to 17 hours per course. Do the math.

Filmmusicnotes - 100-119 USD per course, around 2 hours each. Master the Score - 9 to 17 hours. Do the math.

It's ok to be angry because you can't afford it. But don't use words as "inmoral" or "elitist" when it's not...there's always room for elegancy in any criticism. And let me tell you something: if you are willing to spend thousands on libraries, you should also be willing to spend a similar amount on your education.

Good luck @nik with the course!

Best,
Gabriel


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## axb312 (Sep 17, 2022)

Not sure what issues people on this forum have if prices for products are lowered that they feel the need to complain about those who complain about high prices.

Based on my income levels, I too agree that the prices for these are too high. Does feel more than a bit elitist from where I'm sitting.

150-200 USD with an added intro discount would have been ok.

Sure the quality is really good btw OP.


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## nik (Sep 18, 2022)

Gabriel S. said:


> +1
> 
> There are a many profesional composers and even more profesional complainers.
> 
> ...





Gabriel S. said:


> +1
> 
> There are a many profesional composers and even more profesional complainers.
> 
> ...


Thank you @Gabriel S.


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## ed buller (Sep 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> People don't blink at spending hundreds on sample libraries - yet are outraged when it comes to spending that on education, which will prove far more valuable in the long run.


exactly !

xx


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I never understood the passion by which some people complain about pricing. Nobody is forcing you to buy things, especially with so many readily available alternatives.



Nobody is forcing me to buy gas either, but when I live in one of the largest oil-and-gas-producing areas in the world, $2 a liter is indeed bullshit. Especially considering the potentially-Weimar inflation we're all headed for.



Gabriel S. said:


> Teaching is a job, don't forget that...and a very important one.


Teaching music is substantially less-important than teaching people how to fix cars, cook, program computers, drive, fly, math, English, how to grow crops and raise animals, chemistry, carpentry, electrical, and really — just about anything else.

Music composition involves considerably-less overhead and operating costs than most or any of the aforementioned things, but I'm willing to bet I could find similarly-priced courses online in those other subjects.



Gabriel S. said:


> It's ok to be angry because you can't afford it. But don't use words as "inmoral" or "elitist" when it's not...there's always room for elegancy in any criticism. And let me tell you something: if you are willing to spend thousands on libraries, you should also be willing to spend a similar amount on your education.


The existence and success of composer cloud, cinesamples cinesubscription, and Alain Mayrand switching Scoreclub to a subscription-model, to name a few, are proof most _aren't_ willing or able to spend thousands on sample libraries. Most of the people who use samples do not have accounts on VI-C.

When most of Europe is looking at freezing in the winter as energy prices skyrocket (just wait until there is no fertilizer on those crops next spring and staple food prices skyrocket too), 1-bedroom apartments in BC, Canada have jumped in six months from 1500 a month to 2100 — most people are not even concerned with affording a music course.

And when they see them priced at halfway to a grand, just like with samples they are going to do one of three things: Not buy them, use free and generally-awful alternatives, or pirate. Most people will spend that 500 on groceries, which these days is enough to get by at best.

Which inevitably leads to mass complaining from developers and such and a total refuse to even consider the possibility that maybe asking this kind of money, for this kind of thing, in current economies, is unreasonable _for real_.

Because the thing about a music course, much like what a composer charges to do a score, is something that is almost entirely arbitrarily-priced. There's no theoretical limit to what it's "worth", and it's almost entirely self-assessed.

The truth is: They just charge whatever the absolute-highest price they can get away with is; whatever will turn the biggest profit on the fewest sales. If even just 100 people with a lot of disposable income, and with these products they have a customer base literally in every country so they'll probably get more than 100, buy the product in a year at something crazy like $600 — that's 60k from a _single_ product that exists in infinite stock.

I don't believe that anyone can't see how that could possibly be "elitist". It is shutting out a huge swath of the population financially and there is very little in the way of objective justification for the price tags.

Is there _any_ price you think is unreasonable for a music course?


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## DivingInSpace (Sep 18, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Teaching music is substantially less-important than teaching people how to fix cars, cook, program computers, drive, fly, math, English, how to grow crops and raise animals, chemistry, carpentry, electrical, and really — just about anything else.


Yeah... Maybe music just isn't for you if this is how you feel.


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 18, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Teaching music is substantially less-important than teaching people how to fix cars, cook, program computers, drive, fly, math, English, how to grow crops and raise animals, chemistry, carpentry, electrical, and really — just about anything else.



And finally the typical "music is less important than" comment finally arrived. That comes from the same branch as "We won't pay for your concert, but you'll get free publicity" and "We can't pay for your music but you'll get free promotion". The undervaluation of music.

Music is listened everyday...at gyms, cars, offices, homes, theaters... Music enhances films and TV series to an extend where if you mute it some films don't work anymore and they lose all its impact. Music is so important and relevant that there are millions of people studying and practicing it everyday.

So, I strongly disagree. Teaching music it is actually important...on many levels, for the individual and for the society. And music teachers deserve a decent wage.

Anyway, I think this topic is drifting into a discussion that shouldn't be carried here. So if any of the people who did the Master the score courses want to share their experience, that would be great.

Best!
Gabriel


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 18, 2022)

And as I said, do the math:

Master the Score:
Trailer Music Elevation
8 Hours of content
Price per hour = 42 USD

Mixing cinematic music
17 hours
Price per hour = 35 USD

20th century orchestral writing
9 hours
Price per hour = 67 USD

Pillars of composition
13 hours
Price per hour = 41 USD
+


> " They happily share all their knowledge and despite being professional composers, they also spend lots of efforts in giving feedback and further guideance in our Discord group. Most of our course provide assignments and additional material like PDFs, scores, lead sheets and midi."



So you get extra content and feedback from teachers, etc...

———

Film music notes:
2 hours of content
Price per hour = 59,5 USD

———

And Scoreclub before the subscription model was more or less the same price per hour of content.

----
Music for the Media from Thinkspace, 314 €.

---
These are not udemy courses...and therefore they have to charge what they consider. And we should be happy that nowadays we have so many courses and options, and Unis even. So instead of complaining, find the course that fits you, your expectations, goals or budget. Study, practice and be happy. But complaining about a course price without taking into consideration its content or value...it's just useless...and sorry for being so honest but that's what it is.


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## nik (Sep 18, 2022)

Gabriel S. said:


> And finally the typical "music is less important than" comment finally arrived. That comes from the same branch as "We won't pay for your concert, but you'll get free publicity" and "We can't pay for your music but you'll get free promotion". The undervaluation of music.
> 
> Music is listened everyday...at gyms, cars, offices, homes, theaters... Music enhances films and TV series to an extend where if you mute it some films don't work anymore and they lose all its impact. Music is so important and relevant that there are millions of people studying and practicing it everyday.
> 
> ...


Hey Gabriel,

thanks for sharing your thoughts, we really appreciate it.

To be honest at this point everything i had to say has been said. As far as i know from our teachers they are also not very interested in taking part in such discussions....

At the end of the day there always will be some people complaining about something. Whether it's the price or the content or just the weather....

If somebody thinks our prices are not reasonable then there is the simple solution of not buying our courses. We do not force anybody to do so.

Besides that we are very thankful and happy about all our current and future students and do our best to serve them as best as we can.

Best
Nik


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## handz (Sep 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I never understood the passion by which some people complain about pricing. Nobody is forcing you to buy things, especially with so many readily available alternatives. Lots of free resources out there. Lots of books as well - used even. If you want to tell the time, you wouldn't act as if the only option was to buy a Rolex.
> 
> Laughable to state this is only accessible to pros. Plenty of people have the ability to buy things because they see the value in it (Ryan, Mattia, etc. are all providing feedback on your music and answering your questions in the community. To me, that was worth the price of entry alone). And professional composers should already be well versed in much of this material (if they're really worth their salt). It's not the role of content producers to dictate how people should budget. If you're "just starting out", do you immediately go buy a Steinway, the Spitfire Everything bundle, and Kii monitors?
> 
> People don't blink at spending hundreds on sample libraries - yet are outraged when it comes to spending that on education, which will prove far more valuable in the long run.


I never understood people who have problem with absolutely valid criticism of highly-priced products, this is just an absolutely normal part of discussion forums, it is being discussed almost all the time.
No, nobody forces you to buy these courses, nobody force you to buy anything, but this is not an argument. The price disqualifies a huge amount of people who would like to buy it and benefit from them from buying them. Thus making it elitist, there is no doubt the course would sell way better for a lower price and would help way more people. But they decided to sell it for enormously high price and only make it affordable to a few. Or people who are going to take debts to buy courses...

Laughable? Maybe you should step down from your golden cloud. 600 USD is a huge amount of money for many people, if you would read this forum or others, you would notice that most beginners etc are starting with budgets that are so so allowing them to buy a computer and a few libraries(often just one). DEFINITELY NOT courses for 400-600 USD. 600 USD especially in current economics is a huge amount of money. Not every country is Germany or Scandinavia or rich part of USA. And yeah, even in less wealthy countries there are composers/musicians who wanna learn - but I guarantee you, they do not have a budget like this and it is sad to limit them. This is not like you buy a onecourse and you know everything.

"People don't blink at spending hundreds on sample libraries - yet are outraged when it comes to spending that on education, which will prove far more valuable in the long run."
Oh, believe me, people blink, only the established pros who buy anything no matter the cost don't blink.


Gabriel S. said:


> Elitist...inmoral...? It's their course, their creation. Inmoral how? Did they steal something or did they spend probably uncountable number of hours preparing it? Elitist? Is it elitist to value the cost of your work? Teaching is a job, don't forget that...and a very important one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you do not see the relation to elitism with an ONLINE COURSE priced 600 USD - than it is quite sad. Do you know sites like Domestika? Etc? They offer super beautiful courses from successful people in their genres, you have all the benefits like private discussion boards, contact with course makers etc. and these courses are 20-80 USD usually, why? Because they do not limit people from buying them, they are selling tons of each course as people love to buy courses, if they are affordable and they have not to think about the price so much, is music "better" than art or design, photography etc? Nope. There is no reason to make courses for music composing so damn expensive.


Egocentric? Wow, I definitely speak for a huge amount of people out there, I assure you this is not just my opinion. 

Scoreclub courses are way longer
Filmmusicnotes courses are also way longer...
I can very much afford to buy the whole offering of their courses now (if I want to support such priced courses) but would be able to afford them 10-20 years ago when I was young man starting out and would really need them and I am sure many young starting people are in the same position now.


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## handz (Sep 18, 2022)

Gabriel S. said:


> And as I said, do the math:
> 
> Master the Score:
> Trailer Music Elevation
> ...


This "math" is the most ridiculous thing ever  So when evaluating the quality of a school, you do it by counting how many hours you spend in classes?

And to correct your "math" 

*Filmmusicnotes: *
$99 + $99 = $198 USD
Duration: *14 Hrs 6 Min"

= 14 USD per hour.


Scoreclub: *
I have counted around 54 HOURS!!! of courses now, for 60 USD a month, let's say you spend 5 months on these courses, but you can as well go through them in a month, it is possible. 

*hupsie, this is like 5 USD per hour for a 5 months subscription, for all the courses. *

20th century orchestral writing
9 hours
Price per hour = 67 USD

Pillars of composition
13 hours
Price per hour = 41 USD

They are just 3-11x more expensive than concurrence, that seems fine


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 18, 2022)

handz said:


> I never understood people who have problem with absolutely valid criticism of highly-priced products, this is just an absolutely normal part of discussion forums, it is being discussed almost all the time.
> No, nobody forces you to buy these courses, nobody force you to buy anything, but this is not an argument. The price disqualifies a huge amount of people who would like to buy it and benefit from them from buying them. Thus making it elitist, there is no doubt the course would sell way better for a lower price and would help way more people. But they decided to sell it for enormously high price and only make it affordable to a few. Or people who are going to take debts to buy courses...
> 
> Laughable? Maybe you should step down from your golden cloud. 600 USD is a huge amount of money for many people, if you would read this forum or others, you would notice that most beginners etc are starting with budgets that are so so allowing them to buy a computer and a few libraries(often just one). DEFINITELY NOT courses for 400-600 USD. 600 USD especially in current economics is a huge amount of money. Not every country is Germany or Scandinavia or rich part of USA. And yeah, even in less wealthy countries there are composers/musicians who wanna learn - but I guarantee you, they do not have a budget like this and it is sad to limit them. This is not like you buy a onecourse and you know everything.
> ...


The thing is that people who think 600 USD for an online course isn't elitist and that music is somehow just as important as the blue-collar jobs that are allowing them to _eat_ and run the electricity that even enables them to drop 600 USD on said course in the first place — and if you think that's an absurd notion then "music isn't for you" (great job disproving the elitism lol) — they are just not serious people and are inherently unreasonable.


DivingInSpace said:


> Yeah... Maybe music just isn't for you if this is how you feel.


Maybe adulthood isn't for you.


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## ed buller (Sep 18, 2022)

handz said:


> I never understood people who have problem with absolutely valid criticism of highly-priced products, this is just an absolutely normal part of discussion forums, it is being discussed almost all the time.


To be honest it was use of the word "immoral" That upset me



handz said:


> Laughable? Maybe you should step down from your golden cloud.



Again...you just can't help yourself. Can't we just disagree without the vitriol ?



handz said:


> This "math" is the most ridiculous thing ever  So when evaluating the quality of a school, you do it by counting how many hours you spend in classes?


 It really isn't. Most lesson are billed by time !.....and an amount for said time ? Again I just fail to see the basis of your outrage here. I get it that you think it's too much...Fine. That's just an opinion but based on what you get for your money right ? So I bet there is a figure you think is fair...ergo it's a simple cost per hour basis. As for your claims of elitism that's just silly. Elite "_*a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group*_" .How many people on this forum want to be "a composer in the elite" ? Why wouldn't they pay 600 sods to get closer to this ???. I think your anger is misplaced. You think it's too much. Then don't buy it. But i'm sure by now you must realise many of us are happy too and find your arguments a tad silly. 

best

e


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 18, 2022)

@handz
No, I don't value education based on the amount of hours, it was an example (and yes I made a mistake with the content length of film music notes, it's 2 hours per lesson in the course I have, not per course (3 lessons, 6 hours)).

This is what I really value:


ed buller said:


> I have bought two courses. Mattia's and Ryan's. Both worth every penny. They are different with some overlap.



And this



ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Can vouch for MTS! Great value and material.



I got to know film music notes, a really interesting book about film music and other interesting stuff thanks to ed buller so I kind of trust his judgement. And Chris makes great youtube content, knows his thing and composes great music in my opinion so, I trust him too. (and I don't know them personally...). And in the case I pay the course and I'm not happy with it, they offer a 30-day money back guarantee. So, nothing else to add.

The rest of the discussion is pointless already. Everything has been said, so I won't participate more in it.

Enjoy your day!


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## THW (Sep 18, 2022)

My great experience with Master the Score started with watching some of the free previews. Those previews include some excellent tips which I could apply right away. I’m very pleased and agree on great value and material.


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## davidson (Sep 18, 2022)

handz said:


> Do you know sites like Domestika? Etc? They offer super beautiful courses from successful people in their genres, you have all the benefits like private discussion boards, contact with course makers etc. and these courses are 20-80 USD usually, why? Because they do not limit people from buying them, they are selling tons of each course as people love to buy courses, if they are affordable and they have not to think about the price so much, is music "better" than art or design, photography etc? Nope. There is no reason to make courses for music composing so damn expensive.


Thanks, I wasnt aware of Domestika. Looks like there's some good content on there.


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## axb312 (Sep 18, 2022)

What is the problem if the courses are made more affordable and accessible ?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Sep 18, 2022)

It’s a peculiar argument to make that if something in the world is outside the reach of your affordability or cost of living situation, it is automatically “elitist” pricing by the creator. Does everything in the world need to be priced based on your budget requirements? And what of the computer / phone you are visiting this forum on? For many in the world, that is beyond what they could afford - are you therefore, by your own definition, an elitist? Say the course cost half what it cost - it would still be too expensive for many people. How low should it priced to dissuade all of elitist claims?

What this argument completely fails to consider is what the _creator_ needs for _their_ cost of living, not to mention the cost, time, and effort it took to make the product. Should all products cost the same, regardless of quality? Regardless of where that creator lives?

No, of course not. You complain because it is out of reach for you and thus it is “unfair” in some way. This argument simply reeks of bitterness and entitlement.

The free market corrects itself. If the creator thought they could sell more copies at lower prices and thus net more revenue, they would do that - or run more frequent sales. If they were losing customers to cheaper options like Domestika, they would potentially reconsider. On the other hand, they might believe they have fairly valued their product and are gaining plenty of customers at the price point they’ve set. Maybe these instructors have explicitly chosen not publish their courses on other platforms because of the various challenges and lack of revenue many people face on them. None of this makes them elitists. Just honest hard working people that are trying to be paid fairly for their work. What’s the problem with paying them what they’re worth?


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 18, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> It’s a peculiar argument to make that if something in the world is outside the reach of your affordability or cost of living situation, it is automatically “elitist” pricing by the creator.


There is nothing nonsensical about the idea that if something is increasingly only affordable by the upper-classes (the elite), then it is elitist. That's pretty much exactly what elitist means.

It's like how if the only punishment for a crime is an expensive fine, then it effectively isn't a crime for the elite to commit.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> For many in the world, that is beyond what they could afford - are you therefore, by your own definition, an elitist?


Except 83% of the world population owns a cellphone. Even in poor countries.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Say the course cost half what it cost - it would still be too expensive for many people. How low should it priced to dissuade all of elitist claims?


Enough so that the largest social class, the middle working class, can afford it. 



ALittleNightMusic said:


> What this argument completely fails to consider is what the _creator_ needs for _their_ cost of living


They need the same things as everyone else.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> The free market corrects itself.


Except it doesn't. Case in point: The housing problem and food.

That's why places like Sweden start putting in price caps on rental so that a rundown trailer can't go for $3000 a month, no utilities. Which, btw, I know rundown trailers that cost that much and the people living in it, who have nowhere else to go, resort to theft and selling drugs to pay the asshole landlord, who people in this thread would also defend, and for equally-absurd reasons.

If you don't like the price of food, just go somewhere else! Except everyone else has raised their prices too. Grow your own! Except you're severly limited because of land costs and all these policies to combat cow farts. Ask the Dutch.

The way the market will "correct itself", is that the entire middle class falls out into homelessness and starvation.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> What’s the problem with paying them what they’re worth?


There is no way, with products and services of the nature we are discussing, to determine "what it's worth". 50? 300? 2500? It doesn't matter. As long as a single person bought it, you can argue that's "what it's worth".

You see this all the time with composers, especially in the indie video game industry. They constantly make up a number of "what they're worth", which is based on absolutely nothing tangible, and then if some student comes to this composer with no experience and can only offer a few hundred bucks, the beginning composer turns his nose up at it. "A few hundred dollars!? I'm worth™ so much more! If I don't charge 'what I'm worth', I'm devaluing the industry!"

Why is this random composer worth so much? Because he said so — that's why.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> This argument simply reeks of bitterness and entitlement.


The counter arguments reek of boomers with too much disposable income who don't understand inflation, as well as people justifying their over-priced purchases.

For the record: I am quite confident that Master The Score's courses are great, I will even guess that they may be some of the best on the market right now, given the talent behind them. So I could see them costing a bit more than the competition, but many of these seem to be going for easily 2x the price of your average online course, and that does make them unaffordable to most. 

Right now, I am taking an IRL language course. It cost 375 CAD, there are far more physical materials provided than in these music courses (overhead costs), and totals 72 hours of content. The most-expensive MtS course right now, which is a LOT more than 375, only has 8 and some change.

The hard facts are: There is just no good reason that these virtual courses need to be priced at a point that shuts out the majority of people — and pretending those who point it out are just "entitled" whiners only proves those whiners' point that this is just baseless elitism.

Because you will notice: No one who defends it can give you a price that they think would be unreasonable.


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## fakemaxwell (Sep 18, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> They constantly make up a number of "what they're worth", which is based on absolutely nothing tangible, and then if some student comes to this composer with no experience and can only offer a few hundred bucks, the beginning composer turns his nose up at it. "A few hundred dollars!? I'm worth™ so much more! If I don't charge 'what I'm worth', I'm devaluing the industry!"
> 
> Why is this random composer worth so much? Because he said so — that's why.


How else is somebody supposed to set rates? Throw darts at a wall of random numbers?

I think the course is priced high. It also seems like you're railing against something that isn't really a part of this industry. The amount of people who would want to purchase this at even 100 dollars is a tiny, tiny chunk of the population. You can bring up about how the Swedish government is doing x y and z all you want but it barely applies to our little niche of an industry here.


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## Bear Market (Sep 18, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> That's why places like Sweden start putting in price caps on rental so that a rundown trailer can't go for $3000 a month, no utilities. Which, btw, I know rundown trailers that cost that much and the people living in it, who have nowhere else to go, resort to theft and selling drugs to pay the asshole landlord, who people in this thread would also defend, and for equally-absurd reasons.


You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I live in Sweden (in a rented apartment by the way). 

1. We have no price caps on rental.
2. There are no trailers here (rundown or otherwise)

What we do have are large municipal landlords who may not set the rents unilaterally, but must negotiate every year with an organization that represents the tenants. On newly built rental apartments rental pricing is completely unregulated and may be set unilaterally by the landlord.

Do you know what the above system (with the semi-regulation of rental levels on existing rental apartments) have resulted in? Of course you don't. However, I can tell you that it has resulted in a completely dysfunctional rental market where people must cue for 10-15 years for a rental contract (I have done this myself), zero mobility on the rental market, and low incentives for new rental housing to be built. A complete disaster.


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## szczaw (Sep 18, 2022)

This isn't some secret and esoteric knowledge. Just watch some free youtube videos.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 18, 2022)

Bear Market said:


> 1. We have no price caps on rental.


Interesting, because that's not what I hear anywhere else. Every bit of info I can find shows the country has had price control since like, the '40s.



Bear Market said:


> What we do have are large municipal landlords who may not set the rents unilaterally, but must negotiate every year with an organization that represents the tenants


So a semi-price cap then?

Whatever. If they cannot "unilaterally' set the price, it's effectively a cap.



Bear Market said:


> low incentives for new rental housing to be built. A complete disaster.


Yours, like many other countries, has a negative birthrate and has for years. There's actually no real reason for _any_ _new_ homes to be built, much like how brand-new cars don't actually need to be rolling off the assembly line 24/7. But this is a totally-unrelated conversation.



fakemaxwell said:


> How else is somebody supposed to set rates? Throw darts at a wall of random numbers?


As I already stated: On something like this, there's no good reason why the average working-class person shouldn't be able to afford it and there are obvious price ranges where it would be reasonable to expect they could.

Right now, these prices are out of reach to most in just about any market.



fakemaxwell said:


> It also seems like you're railing against something that isn't really a part of this industry


The person I quoted referred to the "free market" in a general sense and was commenting on the system itself. So of course it applies to this industry; it applies to everything under free-markets and capitalism.



fakemaxwell said:


> The amount of people who would want to purchase this at even 100 dollars is a tiny, tiny chunk of the population


Certainly much larger in the demographic of aspiring composers, though and that's the point.

What is the benefit of making such a product out of financial reach for so many? What is an unreasonable price, or do you guys think such a thing even exists? 

I don't know man. I just don't get why when Handz came in here saying "This is way too high" people couldn't just be like "Yeah, that IS pretty crazy." instead of having to come up with all these weird platitudes that amount to "If you don't pay whatever tf the people making samples and courses want; then music just isn't for you!" like that one guy told me. If they cost the better part of a down payment on a house, that other guy would still be making the "Education is valuable!" argument lol.

It just makes me think maybe handz was right about his claims of elitism.

Anyway — let us know if these courses really were worth the thousands of American dollars you spent on them. When they inevitably go on sale for like 50% off on Easter or something, then maybe I'll check one out and I'm sure all the people who paid 600 the day before the sale will have no buyer's remorse at all.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 18, 2022)

szczaw said:


> This isn't some secret and esoteric knowledge. Just watch some free youtube videos.


I will tell you the secrets top producers don't want you to know.

Only $999 USD


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## szczaw (Sep 18, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> I will tell you the secrets top producers don't want you to know.
> 
> Only $999 USD


I'll do it, if you'll hold my hand !


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## Bear Market (Sep 18, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Whatever. If they cannot "unilaterally' set the price, it's effectively a cap.


"Whatever". Ah, there it is. The fully expected dismissal when faced with facts that run counter to your confirmation bias. It is not effectively a cap as rate hikes are implemented annually following negotiations between organizations representing the landlords and the tenants. 

Did I mention that I live in Sweden (in a rental apartment)? 

But who am I to spew well grounded facts on the topic when that's "not what you hear everywhere else". Let's all bow down to your omniscience, shall we?



Chris Schmidt said:


> Yours, like many other countries, has a negative birthrate and has for years. There's actually no real reason for _any_ _new_ homes to be built, much like how brand-new cars don't actually need to be rolling off the assembly line 24/7. But this is a totally-unrelated conversation.


Again, you are displaying an excruciatingly obvious lack of knowledge of the subject as you have omitted to account for immigration. Have a look at the total increase of Sweden's population and the picture will become clear.

Thank God for the ignore function on this forum. All the best.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 19, 2022)

szczaw said:


> I'll do it, if you'll hold my hand !


Only if your credit card is already in it.


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## szczaw (Sep 19, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Only if your credit card is already in it.


I'm PayPal only


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## onnomusic (Sep 19, 2022)

the amount of entitlement in the thread is really beyond me :/ 
You think it's too expensive, don't buy it, move on with your life  

You can find better stuff on YouTube for free? go ahead watch those. 

There's really no point in arguing on an online forum that someones prices are too high. Nobody owes you anything in life.


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## nik (Sep 19, 2022)

Hey everyone, 

here are some facts that i hope will provide more insights rather than heat up the discussion:



1) Mixing Cinematic Music 

was released with an intro price of 399 plus a 5% discount for our subscribers as well as VI Control members. That brought the price down to 379$. There are over 17 hours of high quality content as well as a over 20 cheat sheets and charts. Since everybody loved our short instrument specific videos so much, we are currently working on a free update to deliver a similiar thing for the different kinds of Fxs.

2) Sound Design For Media Composers 

was released with an intro price of 319$ plus a 10% loyalty discount which brought the price down to about 279$. There are over 10 hours of high quality content. The course will receive a huge update in October. The update will bring a lot of additional lessons, as well as cheat sheets and source sounds for every sound created. In addition the course will be restructured and provide assignments for the students. 

3) Hybrid Orchestral Composition and Sound 

was released with an intro price of 349$ plus a 10% loaylty discount which brings the price down to about 315$. The course contains 14+ hours of videos including a breakdown of a track used in the World of Warcraft Campaigns. In addition we also provide midi files. Also this course will receive a big update this year, with extra video material as well as assignments.

4) 20th Century Orchestral Writing 

was released with an intro price of 399$ . The course contains almost 9 hours of contents plus sibelius files, lead sheets, midi, logic files plus assignments for the students. In addition there already have been two updates, the next coming on sunday. More lessons and updates are already under construction. 

5) Pillars Of Composition

was released with an intro price of 349$ plus a 15% loyalty discount which brought the price down to 315$ . The course contains over 13 hours of contents plus downloadable mp3, midi and PDFs

6) Trailer Music: Elevation 
is currently on intro pricing for 279$ and contaions over 8 hours of videos. In addition Laszlo offered a hour one 1-1 Lessons for the first 20 students. 


Besides this imo reasonable pricing there is the possbility of students joing our Discord Channel where they can receive feedback and further tips from their teachers. As far as i know there was not one single question unanswered until now.

In addition our students will be eligible for discounts for more than 10 sample library and plugin developers and this list surely will be growing.

And for those who did not know about any intro sale prices etc: Whenever i am interested in a product or course, i will usually subscribe so i can learn more about them and also don't miss out on any deals, sales etc. 

I think for those not having experience in making courses it can be hard to imagine how much work really went into this. Besides the need of having the proper equipment, there went so much effort in carfully planing and constructing the whole content.

Furthermore the time for creating additional resources like PDFs, scores and cheat sheets should definetly not be underestimated.

Besides all the above mentioned, we did a giveaway for every course we released. And the winners were very happy about their free course. We also offer free quicktips/previews on Youtube ,and btw we just finished our new E-Book Orchestral Clarity by Joel and Mattia. This will be available as a free download soon. 

To sum up i think our prices are really more than reasonable. We put ongoing work and passion into all this by providing excellent teachers, a community, feedback and course updates. 


All the best,
Nik


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## ed buller (Sep 19, 2022)

onnomusic said:


> the amount of entitlement in the thread is really beyond me :/
> You think it's too expensive, don't buy it, move on with your life


yup


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## ed buller (Sep 19, 2022)

nik said:


> 5) Pillars Of Composition
> 
> was released with an intro price of 349$ plus a 15% loyalty discount which brought the price down to 315$ . The course contains over 13 hours of contents plus downloadable mp3, midi and PDFs


£24 an hour !!!!



I am baffled as to how anyone can claim that as "immoral"

best

ed


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 19, 2022)

onnomusic said:


> the amount of entitlement in the thread is really beyond me :/
> You think it's too expensive, don't buy it, move on with your life
> 
> You can find better stuff on YouTube for free? go ahead watch those.
> ...


How it works is that if you drop say $1000 on a string library or course or whatever, and someone says it's too much, you say that they're entitled, and that they can go elsewhere cheaper because "free market"

But if you lose the job to a composer who is cheaper, one must make (yet another) thread whining about how these cheaper people are "devaluing" the industry.

It's like how Carlin said that everyone driving faster than you is a maniac and everyone slower is an idiot.


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## handz (Sep 19, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> It’s a peculiar argument to make that if something in the world is outside the reach of your affordability or cost of living situation, it is automatically “elitist” pricing by the creator. Does everything in the world need to be priced based on your budget requirements? And what of the computer / phone you are visiting this forum on? For many in the world, that is beyond what they could afford - are you therefore, by your own definition, an elitist? Say the course cost half what it cost - it would still be too expensive for many people. How low should it priced to dissuade all of elitist claims?
> 
> What this argument completely fails to consider is what the _creator_ needs for _their_ cost of living, not to mention the cost, time, and effort it took to make the product. Should all products cost the same, regardless of quality? Regardless of where that creator lives?
> 
> ...


This post really is the essence elitism... Bravo. 
Are you gonna put "in Africa people are starving" argument here? C'mon, these courses are expensive even for people living in Europe and for people with average income. They are just expensive for an online course. They cost like a software that cost billions and decades to develop. they cost as sample libraries that took years to make. And really I do not think there was so much work behind the courses - with all respect to their creators. Why they are so expensive? Because they operate on a "sell less for more" model which is how luxury and elite brands operate. which is when it comes to education - really a sad decision.

The courses are not out of my reach but I am not getting courses for such a price, same as I am not going to restaurants to eat gold-plated steaks with truffles, I can but I can live without them. 

I would really love to know why people who provide valuable content for free decided to choose the most expensive platform for their courses which seems like the total opposite of what are they normally trying to do - help as many people as possible. I am not sure how MTS works but I know how pretty much every other major course website works and they usually pay you one payment for the course and then you have a percentage from every sold course (or every course beyond a certain amount) Means the more courses you sell the more money you make, which is I would say the best option which is beneficial both for buyers and sellers. But willingly limiting who can buy the course by setting the price so high is.... elitism, sorry, but it is  



onnomusic said:


> the amount of entitlement in the thread is really beyond me :/
> You think it's too expensive, don't buy it, move on with your life
> 
> You can find better stuff on YouTube for free? go ahead watch those.
> ...


What is entitled about pointing out a price which is many times higher than is normal for such content? 

Arguing about price of something is like 50% of all product-themed discussions, welcome to the internet.


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## Voider (Sep 19, 2022)

handz said:


> And really I do not think there was so much work behind the courses - with all respect to their creators.


With that argument you can also have a discussion with the cashier at the cinema why you would pay the same price for all the movies in the cinema if Marvel's Avengers costs the same but was soooo much more expensive to produce.



handz said:


> I would really love to know why people who provide valuable content for free decided to choose the most expensive platform for their courses which seems like the total opposite of what are they normally trying to do - help as many people as possible.


Working as an instructor is nothing different from any other job, the main purpose is to be able to live from the income, which is a totally fine wish.



handz said:


> I am not sure how MTS works but I know how pretty much every other major course website works and they usually pay you one payment for the course and then you have a percentage from every sold course (or every course beyond a certain amount) Means the more courses you sell the more money you make, which is I would say the best option which is beneficial both for buyers and sellers.


That's unfortunately not true. I sell my sounddesign courses on Udemy, my big main course (8 hours) is priced at 75€, but only if I make sales with my own links, and then these people even need to enroll within 24 hours after clicking my link, else I will get only 38% instead of 97%.

If I take part in the _Udemy promotional program_ with my courses, they will advertise my courses for me, but they will also put them on a sale for 9,99€. I tried that, I've made 10 sales - all for 9,99€ or sometimes even just 4€ or 5€, depending on if a customer had any other coupon to combine.

Now here's the (not so) fun part: If I sell a course for $9,99 through their program, and I get 38%, they'll pay me ~4,30€ for that. Sometimes even less if a customer is from Europe and VAT adds on top.

So these 10 sales which by default would've been worth 750€, made me 35€. Yes, you've read that right. Actually not euros, but dollars. Which means if I let Paypal pay that out to my local bank account, I again pay fees for the conversion (Just paid 3,60€ fees for paying out $150 to my bank account).

I'd need to sell more than 20 courses at this very cheap dumping prices to get the value I'd get out of only one full price sale. That's the whole "magic" behind these 3rd party sites, either you're all on your own regarding advertisement which means a lot of work and effort for you, and you need to fight bad rules like that 24 hour link-click rule I've mentioned above, or you agree that they advertise your course, but then you can watch how they basically gift your hard work away for almost free and pay you in pennys. Yeah, you might make 2k at some point if they manage to sell your course thousands of times for under 10 bucks, but that's really a terrible condition. (_You can bet that I tried their promotional program once or twice and then never again, I rather do promotions on my own and have fewer students who are really committed to and interested into sounddesign_).

All of these 3rd party websites have some sort of mechanic that make you end up like this - I've compared many.

Unless the _Master the Score_ guys didn't build their website on their own and use other web-building-services in the background (_which you can't tell just by looking at their website_) they will have to pay a couple of hundreds every year to keep the site up, pay for the domain, maybe still have transaction fees on every single sale and so on.

That's the price you have to pay if you wish not to use sites like Udemy.

Also, back to the topic regarding the pricing: Piano lessons here in Germany cost somewhat 40-60€ per hour, which means after 10 hours you're already at 400€-600€. But then these 10 hours are gone. You can't re-visit it like you can do with the courses, you can't work through it in your own tempo, and you most likely can't ask infinite questions to your piano teacher without paying him again for that, while you're also not part of a community which works through the same chapter as you do so that you have other students to exchange with about your exact learning material.

If they - as they say - offer feedback on your work, a discord channel where you can ask the instructors anything and get support, then I'd rather look at this as some sort of a _music school lite. _And if I think about the pricings of private music schools here in Germany, now that's really costs that go through the roof!

I agree that 600€/$ looks (and is) expensive, but they also seem to invest more effort than your usual instructor on other platforms. Yes, on Udemy you are allowed to ask questions under the videos and instructors like me will always reply, but it's not granted, it's not part of what you enroll to. Some might just push out their courses and then lean back and chill and don't care anymore.

And the question at the other side of the coin is if 600€/$ looks expensive because it is, or if it looks expensive because there are so many big course sites today throwing away everything for almost free in never ending mega sales. They make a ton of money but the instructors not so in comparison, that's their business model. And a lot of instructors don't want to learn how to do proper advertisement, understand their audience, build a community, maintain their social media. They just thick the box at the Udemy promotional program and hope for hundreds of sales due to the very low dumping pricings.

If I do the _piano-lesson-comparison, _the pricing just looks fine. It only doesn't compared to what other people in the industry offer, but it's a question in dispute whether that's because that is what the other instructors actually value their work at, or if they only did bow down in fear to the big mega companies to stay competetive in this market.

Just to share some different insights 
Stay kind to each other guys!


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## spacewizmusic (Sep 19, 2022)

With all due respect to everyone, I think most points are already made in this discussion and it's not moving anywhere. 
People like me who have been part of MTS community are already happy with purchases and have no complains. 
If these are too costly for someone, I'd say, simply avoid their existence or wait for some sale or go for alternatives. 
I find these courses useful and I come from a country where $500 is more than average monthly income (let alone be groceries and stuff), so I think I understand the 'cost' of this education. 

I think it'd be wise to close this thread down rather than bumping with more arguments. 
OR let's stick to what OP asked for 'Master the Score Courses Quality' and share the thoughts on that. 

Thanks


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## handz (Sep 19, 2022)

Voider said:


> Working as an instructor is nothing different from any other job, the main purpose is to be able to live from the income, which is a totally fine wish.



First of all, thank you for your input - some nice info there. 

These people are not instructors, they are full-time composers, this is just an extra effort from them, which I hope was mainly to share some knowledge not to make a living. And again for the creators of the courses, the price is not affecting their income, the course would sell many times more for an affordable price so actually, their income would be definitely larger and they earn less like this (if it wasn't just one time payment for them which would be sad) 


Voider said:


> That's unfortunately not true. I sell my sounddesign courses on Udemy, my big main course (8 hours) is priced at 75€, but only if I make sales with my own links, and then these people even need to enroll within 24 hours after clicking my link, else I will get only 38% instead of 97%.


I do not know about udemy, but what I wrote is 100% true with Domestika for example. You get one time payment for creating the course (not a small one) and then you get I think 5-10% from each sale above I 1000 (and most courses sell 30k + ) and from your links the % is way higher. 


Voider said:


> I'd need to sell more than 20 courses at this very cheap dumping prices to get the value I'd get out of only one full price sale.


Of course, It seems like it sucks, but the fact is, you can sell 10000 courses on such website while selling it on your own you will have a hard time selling 100 - if you are not having a huge fanbase already. 


Voider said:


> Unless the _Master the Score_ guys didn't build their website on their own and use other web-building-services in the background (_which you can't tell just by looking at their website_) they will have to pay a couple of hundreds every year to keep the site up, pay for the domain, maybe still have transaction fees on every single sale and so on.


Domain cost 10 USD a year, and basic hosting for such low-traffic websites is like 5-10 USD a month. This is nothing. Making a such simple website is a 400-600 USD one-time investment. These are insignificant numbers when starting such a business. 



Voider said:


> Also, back to the topic regarding the pricing: Piano lessons here in Germany cost somewhat 40-60€ per hour, which means after 10 hours you're already at 400€-600€.


Yeah but let's be honest, personal piano hours are somewhat a luxury thing nowadays, and you have 1:1 real-time experience, you can ask on anything you actually need and you get an instant explanation, the teaching is also very personalized, and you can learn exactly what you need, while all the premade courses you always get much stuff you don't need or want. BtW here it cost like 10-15 EUR, Personal Composition teacher is around 18-25 Eur ....600 USD here is like 2000+ USD for Average German citizens (based o average and minimal wage) - imagine paying this for a course... and the Czech republic is not a 3rld world country or Russian federation. I really don't think premade online course with Unlimited selling potential is comparable price-wise to personalised lessons.


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## Andreyfw (Sep 19, 2022)

@nik all this discussion should make you and whoever responsible for marketing very proud. Such heat is dedicated to your courses - you hit right nerve in peoples heart! Good job!


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## axb312 (Sep 19, 2022)

The courses look great. I hope a good sale in the future will put some of them in reach. It's a pity to miss out on quality education.

Other than that, I agree that the conversation rericing is not really going anywhere. The amount of entitlement shown by those who can afford the course is a little hard to digest.

Cheers.


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## fakemaxwell (Sep 19, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Certainly much larger in the demographic of aspiring composers, though and that's the point.


Ryan Leach's videos from the winners of his scoring competition have like 8k and 4k views on them. The submissions for both contests were about ~800. That's about as close as you can get to the "demographic of aspiring composers" that Ryan Leach has access to, and it's basically a rounding error.

There are not a lot of people doing what we do!


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## DivingInSpace (Sep 19, 2022)

I think most people here won't deny that the courses are on the pricey side. What people are reacting to is the accusations of the price being "elitist" and "immoral". 

I don't own the courses because i think they are too expensive for me too, but I think the way this is discussed is just straight up rude to the people who worked hard to make them.


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## spacewizmusic (Sep 19, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> I think most people here won't deny that the courses are on the pricey side. What people are reacting to is the accusations of the price being "elitist" and "immoral".
> 
> I don't own the courses because i think they are too expensive for me too, but I think the way this is discussed is just straight up rude to the people who worked hard to make them.


Agree to the point that courses at full price are costly.
I believe taking the right advantage of Intro sales and Loyalty pricing would help getting the course around $350-400 (might vary as per VAT), which was a fare price for me.

Edit : It'd have been awesome, if we had Spitfire EDU discount though


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## Joël Dollié (Sep 19, 2022)

It's flattering to see so much interest around the MTS courses  Based on the feedback I have received for my course, I think it's safe to say that my students feel like they're getting a great value.

Keep in mind that most companies do sales at certain times of the year. I have no clue when that will be exactly and I can't speak for Nik - the admin - but I would just keep an eye open in case you've been checking out these courses for a while.


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## handz (Sep 19, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Ryan Leach's videos from the winners of his scoring competition have like 8k and 4k views on them. The submissions for both contests were about ~800. That's about as close as you can get to the "demographic of aspiring composers" that Ryan Leach has access to, and it's basically a rounding error.
> 
> There are not a lot of people doing what we do!


But he has 84k youtube fans! I guess most of these people are interested in his content and a lot of them would love to own his course, of course, many will be hobby composers etc but... this is a huge fanbase, but of course not a fanbase for a 600 USD course. not even 400 USD. The fact that there were just "JUST" 800 entries - doesn't mean there are just 800 active people, not everyone is joining such contests, actually a small minority does.



DivingInSpace said:


> I don't own the courses because i think they are too expensive for me too, but I think the way this is discussed is just straight up rude to the people who worked hard to make them.


So you agree with the price being too high and still going to defend the publisher? Look, when you criticize the price of a product not directly sold by the author, it is not rude. In the CD era, musicians earned like 10% from their recordings and everybody was criticizing the recording companies, nobody was like "this is rude to the band!". I do not know how were the authors involved in the pricing, but I hope they were not those who insisted that the courses should be sold for a way higher price than any other similar courses on the internet and prevented the majority of their youtube fanbase from buying them...


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## szczaw (Sep 19, 2022)

onnomusic said:


> You can find better stuff on YouTube for free? go ahead watch those.


Hey, buy whatever you like, but if something seems too expensive or you're on low budget, chances are the same information is available somewhere for free. It's all similar or the same ideas with some personal insights.


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## DivingInSpace (Sep 19, 2022)

handz said:


> So you agree with the price being too high and still going to defend the publisher? Look, when you criticize the price of a product not directly sold by the author, it is not rude. In the CD era, musicians earned like 10% from their recordings and everybody was criticizing the recording companies, nobody was like "this is rude to the band!". I do not know how were the authors involved in the pricing, but I hope they were not those who insisted that the courses should be sold for a way higher price than any other similar courses on the internet and prevented the majority of their youtube fanbase from buying them...


No, i Find them too expensive for me to wanna spend my money on. There are lots of other things that are too expensive for me to wanna spend my money on. That doesn't make those products immoral or elitist, that just mean that i don't wanna prioritise saving up for those. I might have priorotised something else and maybe I bought a similar product in lower quality.

People have been dicks about it in this thread. Music education has been called "less important than pretty much any other kinds of education" And somebody even said that "the instructors probably didn't put that much effort into it".

Stop making the price of some online courses into a class war lol.


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## DrSgtShock (Sep 19, 2022)

Value on stuff like this is pretty subjective and highly specific to an individual’s needs.

For instance, I’m currently working my way through Leach’s pillars of composition and I’m enjoying it a lot. As someone who never went to school for music and lacks a lot of the formal composition fundamentals it’s a perfect fit for me. It’s a chunk of change, for sure, but it’s pretty much tailored to exactly the skills I’m missing right now. Music is not and never will be my primary career so going to school for it is just not an option due to the money/time commitment. Because of this, a structured set of lessons I can take at my own pace for less than the price of a college course works well for me. 

Would I say the same for the Trailer Music course? No, but I’m not a trailer music guy and don’t want to be so I wouldn’t consider it worth the price. That says more about me and my needs though than it says about the quality of that course (which I’m sure is great).


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 19, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Ryan Leach's videos from the winners of his scoring competition have like 8k and 4k views on them. The submissions for both contests were about ~800. That's about as close as you can get to the "demographic of aspiring composers" that Ryan Leach has access to, and it's basically a rounding error.
> 
> There are not a lot of people doing what we do!


There are literally MILLIONS of people doing what we do.

And even if we were to pretend 800 entries to a contest on a single YouTube channel was representative of how many aspiring composers there are: What's 800x any random MtS course?



handz said:


> So you agree with the price being too high and still going to defend the publisher?


I see this entire argument as a positive development from a business perspective, as I have decided to give up on composing entirely and instead focus on the lucrative business of taking VI-C users' money instead.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 19, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> "less important than pretty much any other kinds of education"


It objectively is. Thinking that music education is as important as the nigh uncountable things that actually keep a civilization running and thriving at a level to even _allow_ high art and the technology that goes into music to flourish is frankly, a completely-goofy position that can only come from a college student, a rich old guy, or an edgy 14-year-old.

I love music as much as the next person, dedicated all of my teen years and most of my 20s to it, but I'm not so delusional as to think that knowing how to compose for an orchestra is equally or more important than knowing how to grow and raise food, fix my brakes or weld.


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## ka00 (Sep 19, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> I'm not so delusional as to think that knowing how to compose for an orchestra is equally or more important than knowing how to grow and raise food, fix my brakes or weld.


I get the feeling you are waiting for society to collapse. Because that’s the scenario in which this statement makes sense. In a functioning capitalist society, no one needs to place judgements on what jobs are important. The market will decide.

All you need is to pick one skill set, the exploitation of which will provide you an income, and then you use some of that income to hire others to do the things you can’t do.

If you become a composer and can earn a living from it, you buy food, you pay to get your brakes fixed and your un-welded objects welded.

If society collapses, then yes, music composition gets you nothing.


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## fakemaxwell (Sep 19, 2022)

handz said:


> But he has 84k youtube fans! I guess most of these people are interested in his content and a lot of them would love to own his course, of course, many will be hobby composers etc but... this is a huge fanbase, but of course not a fanbase for a 600 USD course. not even 400 USD. The fact that there were just "JUST" 800 entries - doesn't mean there are just 800 active people, not everyone is joining such contests, actually a small minority does.


I guess I'm just gonna completely disagree with this. If I was looking to gauge how many people might be interested in a high level composing course (independent of cost here), the number of people actually entering these free contests would be a good indicator of who might be willing to buy imo.

Spitfire had I think 13k for the first rendition of their contest. A much bigger audience for their content and it's still a small number of people, nowhere near millions. "Bedroom Ableton users" outnumber "people interested in counterpoint" by multiple orders of magnitude.


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## handz (Sep 19, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> I guess I'm just gonna completely disagree with this. If I was looking to gauge how many people might be interested in a high level composing course (independent of cost here), the number of people actually entering these free contests would be a good indicator of who might be willing to buy imo.
> 
> Spitfire had I think 13k for the first rendition of their contest. A much bigger audience for their content and it's still a small number of people, nowhere near millions. "Bedroom Ableton users" outnumber "people interested in counterpoint" by multiple orders of magnitude.


Really don’t get your point here. The amount of people
Joining a contest where you have to compose something is not an indicator at all. 

Majority of beginners / hobby users / intermediate composers (who are I would say vast majority of subscribers to these YouTube channels) are not confident to attend contest. Nor even have time or skills for it. And actually it is similar for professionals. If you are successful working composer working on tight schedule you have no time and mood for this. This absolutely does not mean you would not buy an affordable course from your favorite youtube teacher. 

Good indicator would be amount of people who bought for example BBCSO discover edition freebie or some entry level library - These are potential buyers for courses


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## fakemaxwell (Sep 19, 2022)

handz said:


> Good indicator would be amount of people who bought for example BBCSO discover edition freebie


How is "group of people who download free thing" an indicator of who will spend money?

Maybe let's just agree that we should never go into business together and leave it there.


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## dyross (Sep 19, 2022)

To those who are in the "these courses are too expensive and that's a problem" camp (@handz, @Chris Schmidt ?), I have a genuine question:

Is your frustration that this specific collection of courses are too expensive, or that _any_ course could be this expensive? As a, perhaps, ridiculous example, would $600 be a fair price for 1:1 course with Hans Zimmer?


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## handz (Sep 20, 2022)

dyross said:


> To those who are in the "these courses are too expensive and that's a problem" camp (@handz, @Chris Schmidt ?), I have a genuine question:
> 
> Is your frustration that this specific collection of courses are too expensive, or that _any_ course could be this expensive? As a, perhaps, ridiculous example, would $600 be a fair price for 1:1 course with Hans Zimmer?


600 for a course with HZ would be enormously cheap. But while you mention "real-life courses" does anyone know about this? https://www.hollywoodmusicworkshop.com/. they are doing live courses with some really top people from the Hollywood music business, recently they had a 6-day course with Conrad Pope (who really is quite a Legend) and it cost 1000 Eur, (6 hours a day). I am actually sad I didn't know about it sooner as I would attend (It is hosted in Austria). And yes, I would pay waaaay more for such an event with John Williams


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## Montisquirrel (Sep 20, 2022)

handz said:


> And yes, I would pay waaaay more for such an event with John Williams


A great composer don't need to be a great teacher...


I hope that all the teachers and educators out there will get paid what they need and that they don't sell themself too cheap. I am so thankful for each one of them, they helped me a lot. I startet with Evenant, got many Mike Verta classes, got a mixing class from Christopher Siu, I have a Sonata-Class at Art-of-Composing, lots of free stuff like "Music Matters" @Youtube and now I am a ScoreClub subscriber since almost 2 years (you can do the math). My music got so much better... or lets put it this way: Now it is much easier to translate my visions into finished music. 
And Master the Score looks great, I watched a lot og the free stuff of Mattia, Joel and Ryan and I hope they now get finally paid what they deserve.

Thank you teachers.


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## LatinXCombo (Sep 20, 2022)

dyross said:


> To those who are in the "these courses are too expensive and that's a problem" camp (@handz, @Chris Schmidt ?), I have a genuine question:
> 
> Is your frustration that this specific collection of courses are too expensive, or that _any_ course could be this expensive? As a, perhaps, ridiculous example, would $600 be a fair price for 1:1 course with Hans Zimmer?


This seems like a self-solving problem here. If you don't think the course is worth the asking price don't buy it. 

If you bought it and didn't think it was worth it, it would be useful to tell us why (and the teachers, maybe they can improve, or at least refund your money.) 

Master The Score appears to be $449 for "14+ hours" of instruction. That translates into $32/hour. That doesn't seem outrageous to me.

I've spent more for similar duration of professional instruction on everything from technology, continuing legal education, even a week-long class on armed self defense in the middle of the desert, which ranged anywhere from $35 - $150/hour depending on the situation. 

And value is a sliding scale sometimes. $8/gallon of gasoline might be reasonable if I had no gasoline and needed to drive my children to the hospital immediately. 

That's all. Peace, love, and all that.


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## thesteelydane (Sep 20, 2022)

handz said:


> decades to develo


Can I just point out that for the people that made them, they did indeed take decades to develop - decades of studying and honing their craft.


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 20, 2022)

handz said:


> 600 for a course with HZ would be enormously cheap. But while you mention "real-life courses" does anyone know about this? https://www.hollywoodmusicworkshop.com/. they are doing live courses with some really top people from the Hollywood music business, recently they had a 6-day course with Conrad Pope (who really is quite a Legend) and it cost 1000 Eur, (6 hours a day). I am actually sad I didn't know about it sooner as I would attend (It is hosted in Austria). And yes, I would pay waaaay more for such an event with John Williams


Ah! So now it's not anymore about how expensive something is, or how inmoral and elitist (as you said) is to charge 600 USD for a full online course + extra materials + personal advice and feedback from teachers...it's about how famous or important the teachers are. So, basically you are willing to pay thousands for a course with John Williams...thousands that most people don't have...but that's not elitist or inmoral anymore even if the majority can't afford it...just because it's John Williams.

You said that most people can't afford a 500-600 USD course...and that's why for you it's inmoral and elitist. But you find totally fine spending thousands on another kind of course...

So, it's not about elitism or morality, it's not even about criticising the pricing of music education, it's ONLY about what YOU decide is right or wrong, what you decide is worth for you, individually, not about what's best for the majority. But instead of saying "this is not worth it for me because XXXXX" you just go and say those famous offensive words and start judging the people who are behind a business that you particularly don't like (but many do like, also ex-students)...without even asking information about it...and start thinking that your views about it should be shared by everyone. What a normal person would do is simply do not even comment ("This is too expensive for me, I won't do it...next thread!")...but of course, you must share your opinion so everyone knows...and estate something as Inmoral because of course, if in your view "this is expensive" then of course it's inmoral...as if you were the master of the truth. That's the egocentric attitude I mentioned in my first message. It is that need to share your opinion no matter what and using those words, contaminating a thread and not giving any value to it, just your opinion 1000 times.

Your arguments are so invalid the more you talk that I'd advise you to leave it...and move on. And leave the thread so we can actually have a proper discussion and information about the course, content, quality, etc, opinions of ex-students, etc...something that actually matters.


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## handz (Sep 20, 2022)

Gabriel S. said:


> Ah! So now it's not anymore about how expensive something is, or how inmoral and elitist (as you said) is to charge 600 USD for a full online course + extra materials + personal advice and feedback from teachers...it's about how famous or important the teachers are. So, basically you are willing to pay thousands for a course with John Williams...thousands that most people don't have...but that's not elitist or inmoral anymore even if the majority can't afford it...just because it's John Williams.


Are you really trying to compare Oscar-winning best of the best composer giving a personal course to premade online courses that once made can be sold endlessly forever without any major effort? No, this is not elitist, as for something like that the high price is totally understandable. Yes, of course, the fact these people are famous and important justifies the extra price. But then again, https://www.masterclass.com/plans offers yearly membership for around 180 USD and you have access to all the masterclasses (Zimmer included) yeah these are not detailed tutorial kind of courses but still... 


Gabriel S. said:


> You said that most people can't afford a 500-600 USD course...and that's why for you it's inmoral and elitist. But you find totally fine spending thousands on another kind of course...


You are funny, so the concert of Rolling Stones elitist because it costs 10x more than the local band? This is a completely different thing. With all respect to the creators, you cant compare courses done by people from youtube with courses done by someone like HZ or JW. Just can't, you really have a weird kind of thinking. 


Gabriel S. said:


> Your arguments are so invalid the more you talk that I'd advise you to leave it...and move on. And leave the thread so we can actually have a proper discussion and information about the course, content, quality, etc, opinions of ex-students, etc...something that actually matters.


the thread was dead for months obviously, not many people here own the courses or share their opinions, or they discuss them in a private group. My argument is valid and many people agree with my price criticism, you do not? Ok, but you won't dictate what can be discussed. I stated my opinion, rest are reactions of fans of the project like you - I originally made one post.


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 20, 2022)

handz said:


> but you won't dictate what can be discussed. I stated my opinion, rest are reactions of fans of the project like you - I originally made one post.


Of course I don't dictate anything and I didn't. I made and advice only.

Stating your opinion is one thing ("I don't like this library because of X", "i don't like this course because of X", etc), but saying that something is elitist and inmoral is different. That's not an opinion...it's a statement. And statements should be based on facts, not on opinions. If you can't see the difference, then it's not worth arguing with you any further. And as last thing: no, facts are not saying that Domestika.org is cheaper (and worse in many ways, for both students and teachers, in my opinion), or that whatever other alternative is cheaper. That's called competition in a free market. There is no right or wrong in terms of morality if there's competition. The market and the consumers will decide at the end. Your business will go better or worse depending on your decisions, but nobody is being forced to accept your conditions, therefore morality discussions don't apply.

And no, I don't compare a course with John Williams with MTS or any other online course. That wasn't my point, but you don't get it so it doesn't matter. I have better things to do today!

Best,
Gabriel


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## Gabriel S. (Sep 20, 2022)

handz said:


> Are you really trying to compare Oscar-winning best of the best composer giving a personal course to premade online courses that once made can be sold endlessly forever without any major effort?


Did you ever read what they said about the course? Personal feedback, a discord channel where you can ask questions and the teachers reply, extra materials, etc...where that "without any major effort" comes from? Did you ever started an online course like theirs so you know how it works...or the amount of sales you have to make just to cover the costs? You don't know anything of that, and still you judge it.

And by the way, being a master composer doesn't imply being a master teacher. If you read about *Nadia Boulanger* you will find that she was, in her own words, a very bad composer...so she dropped it and became a teacher...Well...she taught some of the best composers in the 20th century, big names in her classroom. And all of them said she was essential for their career.

So, a "nobody" can be the teacher you need. An unknown composer can even be the teacher who makes you grow as nobody did before. So, who is the elitist here?


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## Trash Panda (Sep 20, 2022)

I think what gets lost on VI-C at times is the composer community is pretty niche compared to many areas of interest/careers/hobbies. 

That has the unfortunate effect of narrowing your potential customer base, so if you need to make $X to cover the $Y cost of creating content at $Z of profit per sale to recoup costs and make some money in the process, the individual unit prices tend to go higher since it's unlikely you can recoup costs and turn a profit at lower margins and higher unit volume.

Now what does that ideal balance look like for each vendor? That's something only they know by going off history of past course sales.

If you look at competing vendors who offer composer-specific courses (Evenant, Alex Pfeffer, Cinematic Composing, Forte Composer Academy) the flagship courses seem to run around $250-$499 with similar amounts of content run-time and external support via Discord/Facebook groups, etc. To keep this comparison apples-to-apples, I'm not counting sites like Udemy or Groove3 as the content is typically subpar (in my experience), sold at clearinghouse prices and doesn't offer the external support.

Does that put Master the Score at a premium price point over these other options? Yes.

Is that in line with what we see from sample library developers who consider their brand worth a premium over middle-of-the-road or budget libraries? Yes.

Does it make Master the Score elitist or evil? No.

Is it hard to judge the value of the product without making a considerable investment to judge it for yourself, just like with sample libraries? Absolutely.

Fortunately, most of these composer-specific education vendors do offer a refund window, so if you find the content is not worth the price, you can get your money back.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 21, 2022)

Gabriel S. said:


> Personal feedback, a discord channel where you can ask questions and the teachers reply, extra materials, etc...where that "without any major effort" comes from?


These are not relevant to the part you are quoting of his post.

He said that they can be endlessly sold forever, without any major effort, and that is correct.

Also, many different music courses, much cheaper than these, have offered forums and teacher feedback as well. I recall Guitar Master Class doing that the better part of 20 years ago, now and just about every one of the myriad of "teach your own online course" services enable you to do this.



Gabriel S. said:


> Did you ever started an online course like theirs so you know how it works


Anyone can start an online course or put out "educational materials" today. I had put out a mini e-book myself a while back that cost like 12 dollars; it cost me nothing to make it or host it.

"Teach your own online courses!" has now become standard career advice and every musician who has a YouTube channel and is on MtS has given this advice to composers looking to make money on their own channel.



Gabriel S. said:


> or the amount of sales you have to make just to cover the costs?


This is the key point apologists keep missing:

There are no significant overhead costs in these kinds of things beyond maybe webhosting, and even then, very cheap or even free options DO exist.

For example, you mention they have a discord: Discord costs them nothing to use.

There is also the fact that if you do have costs to make back, you want to make them back as quickly as possible via a high early-adoption rate; which is why an affordable, but still profitable price is what most would go for, or else people just sit around and wait for sales, and by then — interest in your product may have waned.



Gabriel S. said:


> You don't know anything of that, and still you judge it.


Because it isn't rocket science and one can make reasonable estimates.

What bothers me about this is not even so much the price of thing I'm not going to buy anyway: It is the hypocrisy behind apologetics.

The composer community consensus is that you have to pay composers and musicians whatever number they pull out of their butt or you're "devaluing the industry", and many young composers have been tricked into turning their noses up at decent gigs because of this, but if you think this music product is too expensive, suddenly it's "free market, bro". "Wait for sales", or "subscribe to composer cloud".

To date, no one in this thread has stated if they think ANY price is unreasonable.

If you've ever bought a sample library on one of the many, many, several-times-a-year sales at a seriously-discounted price because you thought it was too expensive regular price: You really have no reason to be defending a nigh 600 USD course or Sptifire's latest four-figure-priced string library, that I can guarantee you will be on a Black Friday/Easter/Christmas/New Year's/International Donut Day sale for as much as 50% off or a Best Service Style "buy one; get one FREE" deal this time next year, and you'll all still refuse to accept that you've been had.

Regular $400 USD, but you can get it for 50 right now. It is clearly worth that 400, right? 



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/8dio-liberis-for-50-flash-sale.130137/


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## ALittleNightMusic (Sep 22, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> To date, no one in this thread has stated if they think ANY price is unreasonable.


You seem very fixated on this (along with a host of other macroeconomic aspects of the world that are irrelevant to this discussion, not to mention the uneducated proclamations you are making on how other people should run their business). Unreasonable is a very subjective term. Some people find paying for first class unreasonable - it gets you to your destination in the same amount of time as economy class. Other people find it perfectly reasonable because they value what they are getting in return. Everybody has their own budgets and what they consider reasonable costs. But those are not a universal threshold - even though you seem to think that "middle class price" is some global standard (it isn't).

You keep harping on a "600 USD course" when none of the MTS courses are that price - and I have not paid full price for any of the three I've purchased. I've bought them on intro sales - same as I try to do with sample libraries if I can. Why? Because that price is more reasonable TO ME. However, somebody else might come along and say the normal price is reasonable to them - same as how people buy sample libraries when they're not on sale. Not everybody wants to wait for a sale. Nobody's been "had" if they don't - they get to use the product immediately, same as a sample library. I don't know why you are on some crusade to convince the world that all prices should be dictated by your notion of reasonable - and you also seem to lack the awareness that TIME is a cost for instructors, like spending time on the Discord server.

Nobody here is an apologist - the pricing is set by the business. Either pay it or don't depending on how you value the content. Stop trying to run their business from your couch when you have no knowledge of their costs, sales data, and revenue expectations.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Nobody here is an apologist - the pricing is set by the business. Either pay it or don't depending on how you value the content. Stop trying to run their business from your couch when you have no knowledge of their costs, sales data, and revenue expectations.


Remember that the next time one of the inevitable "composers working for free or under whatever I charge devalue the industry" thread pops up.


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## handz (Sep 22, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I think what gets lost on VI-C at times is the composer community is pretty niche compared to many areas of interest/careers/hobbies.


This isn’t true anymore. I am on vi-c since day 0. I was on northernsounds before as well. The sample based composing Is no more a small niche for few, it is a huge market. Just look on soundsonline, bestservice and all the small developers who are appearing each year. This is now a huge business. Not as big as some but not a tiny niche.



Trash Panda said:


> the individual unit prices tend to go higher since it's unlikely you can recoup costs and turn a profit at lower margins and higher unit volume.


This is a product that cost “just” time to make. Its easiest and least risky kind of business- you invest your free time. I know this well. Its my usual business model. You dont really need to recoup anything. And sadly many people on MTS didn’t need MTS to sell their courses. They have tons of fans on youtube. of course not for 600 usd courses. But i can guarantee you they would sell 100x more courses for 100–150 usd then for 600 - which would be of course better. As the beginners and hobbyists wont pay 600 for one course impulsively. With stuff like this, You wanna announce and sell fast - these courses get outdated and new will come. You dont wanna sit and wait for people with loaded wallet. 


Trash Panda said:


> Does that put Master the Score at a premium price point over these other options? Yes


Yes. Premium in a way that they are not affordable for majority of people who most need them - which is kind of elitism. 

Btw Ben Botkins course is 11hours and is $175 And he is one of the best out there. 


Trash Panda said:


> Is that in line with what we see from sample library developers who consider their brand worth a premium over middle-of-the-road or budget libraries? Yes.


Not anymore. There are now not any premium only developers. Cost of libraries are now way lower than ever. And of course investments to record them are actually higher than before. 
Nobody is selling string libraries for 3k. You now get full orchestral lib for 900-1200. 


Trash Panda said:


> Fortunately, most of these composer-specific education vendors do offer a refund window, so if you find the content is not worth the price, you can get your money back.


These courses are of course great and I dont wanna do some sneaky buy and return roschambos. I juat think that none of such courses is worth such pricing nowadays. 


ALittleNightMusic said:


> Some people find paying for first class unreasonable


And it is. It costs 5-10x more than regular airplane ticket usually. 1st class is mostly for elites. Rich people or people whose companies pay them for tickets. Normal people rarely use 1st class 😢


ALittleNightMusic said:


> You keep harping on a "600 USD course" when none of the MTS courses are that price


what are you talking about? They are. We are not all living in the USA. And when people discuss price you discuss it with VAT. 


ALittleNightMusic said:


> Not everybody wants to wait for a sale.


Yes. Thats why every library has presale or intro price now. And then they go on sale every other month… 


ALittleNightMusic said:


> I don't know why you are on some crusade to convince the world that all prices should be dictated by your notion of reasonable -


because The price point is just enormly high, it just is. For a course. It is a huge sum of money. Do not tell me things like “for someone it is ok price”. This is not an argument. Based on current costs of sample libraries. Daws. Other courses. This is really expensive price for a course. I really dont get why you trying to advocate it so much 🙃 Everyone would benefit from more courses sold.


ALittleNightMusic said:


> Stop trying to run their business from your couch when you have no knowledge of their costs, sales data, and revenue expectations


We have lot of the data. 

The costs of this business was - paying the creators for the coruses, which is only thing we dont know. Making website etc. Small numbers. Nothing that would make u not sleep at night. 

The FB private group has 165 members. I am fine to guess that everyone who purchased such expensive course really want to use all the benefits. So they all joined this group. I guess the lectors are all there. The creator of MTS as well. So thats minus 7. 159 members. And I do not think they all paid, as some may got course as part of collab. Anyway. Its 26 courses sold per lector in 3 months? Thats less than 10 a month. Is this a good number? Well even with some sale / intro price is it a lot of money because the courses are expensive. But of course. This is what I would await sell in a first day! Ryan Leech has 89k!!! YT fans. And 26 bought a course in 3
Months? When you announce something to 88k fans - fans who follo you for your learning of music, and the things is fine tuned music learning course. You should get ton of sales quite fast . But of course… that something cant cost 600 usd which discourage 99% of your fanbase.


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## DivingInSpace (Sep 22, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Remember that the next time one of the inevitable "composers working for free or under whatever I charge devalue the industry" thread pops up.


Please stop using this strawman all the time, it has nothing to do with the Price of online courses. As long as everybody hired to do work on the course (website maintenance, support, editing and whatever else they may have people to the payroll for) is paid a proper wage, all is good. Same goes when a composer is hired by someone.

And a proper wage is decided by unions, the field of work, skill level, hours put into it, often the country they are based in too etc. before you ask.


A product can cost whatever, as long as the people hired to work on it is paid a propper wage.


And inbefore you start arguing about how we all buy products made by underpaid workers in different Asian countries, yes I am aware of that double standard, sadly it is hard to avoid.

Pretty sure this is the last thing I have to add to this discussion.


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## gamma-ut (Sep 23, 2022)

handz said:


> Yes. Premium in a way that they are not affordable for majority of people who most need them - which is kind of elitism.
> 
> Btw Ben Botkins course is 11hours and is $175 And he is one of the best out there.



Why do you or these other people _need_ this course? From what I can gather from the course outline (which is reasonably detailed compared to others I've seen – partly because of the way they've hosted it), this information is readily available from other sources. It's main claim is that it's presented in a different way to traditional courses, namely you don't get stuck doing endless species counterpoint exercises before getting onto the creative stuff. But one could readily grab a few books for a lot less and get stuck in – just as long as the motivation is there. With this, you're trading money against motivation. There's a market for that and I wouldn't be surprised that it's among older people who have the cash and look at Gradus ad Parnassum or Aldwell and Schachter and think "sod that, is there an easier way to get into this?"

However, the thing that compelled me to reply is the comparison with Ben Botkin's new course. Just from reading the descriptions, these are quite different courses with different intents so if you're looking at them and thinking they are equivalent I've got to question whether you've actually considered what's gone into the course you're ranting and raving over other than getting sticker shock after seeing the title and thinking "mastering the score, I gotta get on that" without much further consideration. Particularly when you've spent the thread wilfully misunderstanding other people's points.


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## Chris Schmidt (Sep 23, 2022)

DivingInSpace said:


> Please stop using this strawman all the time, it has nothing to do with the Price of online courses. As long as everybody hired to do work on the course (website maintenance, support, editing and whatever else they may have people to the payroll for) is paid a proper wage, all is good. Same goes when a composer is hired by someone.


It's not a "strawman".The forum, and every other forum has the exact same contradictory standpoint on the subject of price and "muh free market".

If, for the tools that teach you how to compose and allow you to compose (samples), are too expensive based on whatever price the dev pulled out their ass, then "just use free stuff", or "Just don't buy it", or "wait for sales lol". But if a composer doesn't get paid whatever number _they_ pull out of their ass, the same doesn't apply. 

Logically, the same _should_ apply to courses and samples, but I guess we're okay screwing them over? Maybe they're not being screwed. Maybe it's just asking too much money.

Lastly, "proper wage"...yeah, the exact point that was made is that MOST people, even in wealthy countries today's wages would not be enough to realistically fit this into the budget. Thus, the correct assertion that it is elitist, which is totally-permissible by "the free market", btw.

I just looked it up again, the cost of living (for a single person) in my area is indeed nearly $3000 a month. Minimum wage is 15/h, most young people are lucky if they make 20. Hell, I don't think most older people are making more than 30. That means that for many, these courses are simply out-of-the-question, and for those who do make enough, they're looking at dropping half or more of their monthly savings on even a single course; about the price of the utility bills.

You can say whatever you want, but that's totally-insane, and I guarantee you the overhead costs on these things are pretty minimal. Not everyone is a boomer or living at home with nothing but disposable income — but when it hits 50% off on black friday, be sure to remind us all that people who buy it at regular price aren't paying too much lol


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## ed buller (Sep 23, 2022)

I suspect a course based on "_redirecting your attention from the internet and endless argument to writing that cue everone is waiting for"_ would be well recieved!

best

e


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## Sheridan (Sep 23, 2022)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-based_pricing


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 5, 2022)

handz said:


> 600 USD for one online course is definitely not fair pricing. Maybe 10-15 years ago, but nowadays? Come on. For the price of two courses, you can get whole cinesamples orchestral libs bundle or HW OPUS or all 3 Cinematic Studio Libs! And this is what you REALLY need to do some work (apart from DAW, Computer, etc - which already is a huge investment) I assume you not stepping into this without any basic music composing skills, etc +You now have tons of free online resources where you can get very useful tips (even some of the course teachers provide very good, free learning videos). This wasn't available before but now it is. And I wonder, what costs more time, knowledge and money to make - a full orchestral library or a course - I know it is different but? And well, the libs are a super-saturated market, and not everyone needs all the libs, but such a course could be interesting to practically anyone in the music niche, sadly not with such price. How can any student, or beginning composer afford this? Actually, I doubt that the majority of people can afford to buy 4 courses for 2400 USD... This is just not cool.
> BTW - Score club - 60 USD a month and you have access to big amount of great courses
> Filmmusicnotes - usually around 100 USD per course
> Master the Score - 540-600 per course.


Sorry but where did you get these prices from? MTS courses are $279, $399 or $499. I don't see 600 there!!


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## davidson (Oct 5, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Sorry but where did you get these prices from? MTS courses are $279, $399 or $499. I don't see 600 there!!


He might be from the UK. I see two courses at $600 and two at $540.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 5, 2022)

Picked up the MTS Ryan Leach course with the $149/mo. payment plan, which seems pretty reasonable if one skips out on making regular library/plugin purchases for 3 months.

So far the course feels pretty high quality and Ryan's teaching style really resonates with me. He definitely goes deeper than the Youtube videos on topics that overlap between the two mediums. Will report back here on if it's "worth it" once I'm farther along in the course.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 5, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Teaching music is substantially less-important than teaching people how to fix cars, cook, program computers, drive, fly, math, English, how to grow crops and raise animals, chemistry, carpentry, electrical, and really — just about anything else.


I know people who fix cars, cook, program computers, drive, fly, math and grow crops while listening to music too. I understand your frustration about the current economy and inflation but just don't devalue the importance of music because of that. Remember when soldiers listen to music on radio during wars under the sounds of bombs and tanks. And the economy during wars is more worse. I never met a car mechanic or a software developer or a chef or a mathematician who don't listen to music while working. Even my previous dentist used to turn on his playlist of classical music while pulling my tooth out. So please, don't underestimate the importance of music!


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 6, 2022)

handz said:


> 600 USD for one online course is definitely not fair pricing. Maybe 10-15 years ago, but nowadays? Come on. For the price of two courses, you can get whole cinesamples orchestral libs bundle or HW OPUS or all 3 Cinematic Studio Libs! And this is what you REALLY need to do some work (apart from DAW, Computer, etc - which already is a huge investment) I assume you not stepping into this without any basic music composing skills, etc +You now have tons of free online resources where you can get very useful tips (even some of the course teachers provide very good, free learning videos). This wasn't available before but now it is. And I wonder, what costs more time, knowledge and money to make - a full orchestral library or a course - I know it is different but? And well, the libs are a super-saturated market, and not everyone needs all the libs, but such a course could be interesting to practically anyone in the music niche, sadly not with such price. How can any student, or beginning composer afford this? Actually, I doubt that the majority of people can afford to buy 4 courses for 2400 USD... This is just not cool.
> BTW - Score club - 60 USD a month and you have access to big amount of great courses
> Filmmusicnotes - usually around 100 USD per course
> Master the Score - 540-600 per course.


Man! Go to Berklee Online, enroll to their courses and end up paying $15K+. 15K or more because you're going to enroll to several courses only to just cover a single topic. BTW, in your other comment, you said that your original comment got deleted because the OP didn't like it. I am the OP! and I have no idea what you said in your original comment actually.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

Any idea if these 'Master The Score' courses will get a nice discounted price during this BF season ?


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Any idea if these 'Master The Score' courses will get a nice discounted price during this BF season ?


@nik informed me couple days ago that they will run a BF on Nov 18th


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> @nik informed me couple days ago that they will run a BF on Nov 18th


Oooh that would be awesome. I'm very interested in one of their current courses. currently very pricy at $499. also some of the upcoming ones, but not sure if they will be discounted before they are released.

Thank you so much for the good news


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Oooh that would be awesome. I'm very interested in one of their current courses. currently very pricy at $499. also some of the upcoming ones, but not sure if they will be discounted before they are released.
> 
> Thank you so much for the good news


Me too mate  I am interested in their trailer and sound design courses. Looks like this BF will be a huge shopping for both sample libs and education


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

I'm interested in their :

* *The Art of Virtual Orchestration* by Benny Oschamann (not released yet, but I would Pre-Order if it was discounted during BF). 

* *20th Century Orchestral Writing *By Mattia Chiappa

* *Composing Worlds: Wizards and Witches *By Ryan Leach

Quite a big investment for me, but music education is a solid investment, and most of the time much more useful than sample libraries


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> * *The Art of Virtual Orchestration* by Benny Oschamann (not released yet, but I would Pre-Order if it was discounted during BF).
> 
> * *20th Century Orchestral Writing *By Mattia Chiappa
> 
> * *Composing Worlds: Wizards and Witches *By Ryan Leach


Yeah, I'll be considering Chiappa's course as well but this wizard & witches? lol Sounds a very focused course for diminished, augmented and dissonant stuff only. I also still don't know the difference between Oschamann's and Chiappa's course as both sound similar. The trick is to make sure that we don't learn the same thing twice by paying twice because Evenant had this issue.


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## nik (Nov 9, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Yeah, I'll be considering Chiappa's course as well but this wizard & witches? lol Sounds a very focused course for diminished, augmented and dissonant stuff only. I also still don't know the difference between Oschamann's and Chiappa's course as both sound similar. The trick is to make sure that we don't learn the same thing twice by paying twice because Evenant had this issue.


The course Benny is involved in is a mock up course. How to make a programmed orchestra sound great. Of course there are also orchestration aspects that play a role here. Regarding Mattia's course you can find all the information on our website.

Wizards and Witches is pretty focused regarding the style, there is more than just a few chord concepts tough. In Chapter 2 and 3 Ryan produces a complete track from beginning to end which is a valuable experience for students i think.


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## nik (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm interested in their :
> 
> * *The Art of Virtual Orchestration* by Benny Oschamann (not released yet, but I would Pre-Order if it was discounted during BF).
> 
> ...


Hey there,

Yeah there will be a BF sale. "Art of Virtual Orchestration" will not be available for Pre Order tough. Wizards and Witches is currently on intro sale and will not be included in the back friday sale either.


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## LostintheBardo (Nov 10, 2022)

nik said:


> Hey there,
> 
> Yeah there will be a BF sale. "Art of Virtual Orchestration" will not be available for Pre Order tough. Wizards and Witches is currently on intro sale and will not be included in the back friday sale either.


Will the sale prices include the option for smaller payments over 3 months? I'm guessing maybe not?


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## nik (Nov 10, 2022)

LostintheBardo said:


> Will the sale prices include the option for smaller payments over 3 months? I'm guessing maybe not?


Oh yes sure! The same 3-Months Payment option as always


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## muziksculp (Nov 10, 2022)

LostintheBardo said:


> Will the sale prices include the option for smaller payments over 3 months? I'm guessing maybe not?


I'm glad you asked this question. I wasn't even aware there was a 3 payments option over 3 months. 

Great ! 

Thanks.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 10, 2022)

A moderator ought to clean this thread up and put all the drama where it belongs: In the Drama Zone.

OP is asking for people to share their experiences with these courses.

OP is not asking for a discussion of the price level chosen by Master the Score.


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 10, 2022)

nik said:


> The course Benny is involved in is a mock up course. How to make a programmed orchestra sound great. Of course there are also orchestration aspects that play a role here. Regarding Mattia's course you can find all the information on our website.


Thanks @nik for clarifying. Yes, I checked the topics in Mattia's course and it also involves sketching mockups, orchestration techniques, track walkthroughs,..etc. which I find it a bit similar to the topics in the art of orchestration. In the end, "orchestral writing" and "art of orchestration" sound have many things in common since both talk about orchestration. I just love to make sure that I am buying unique courses.

For instance, there's a clear distinction between the Marodi's and Purcell's trailer courses. From reading their descriptions, I assume one talks about the new modern trailer that may involve electronic-only Really Slow Motion-type trailers and the other talks about the bread & butter hybrid orchestral trailer in the style of Mark Petrie and Steve Jablonsky. When I see this distinction, I don't think twice and end up buying both courses.

However, I still don't see this clear distinction in the aforementioned orchestration courses


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## David Baran (Nov 10, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> A moderator ought to clean this thread up and put all the drama where it belongs: In the Drama Zone.
> 
> OP is asking for people to share their experiences with these courses.
> 
> OP is not asking for a discussion of the price level chosen by Master the Score.


I disagree. I think it's perfectly appropriate to hear people's opinions on the price. It is a factor when considering these courses because of how they are priced, and it applies to determining if the value is there or not.

I haven't seen anything in this discussion about the actual quality of these courses and how actionable they are.

I haven't seen any actual "data" or any mention of actual tangible "results" or ROI (Return On Investment).

Has taking these courses elevated anyone's game in a real world sense?

Has anyone landed more gigs as a result? Has anyone actually improved as a result? That's the real measure of "value" and "quality" of the courses.

Did Hans slightly turn his head and wink in your general direction because you finally managed to pique his interest or serenade him with your newly learned skills?

Anyone have any before and after demos to share who actually finished these courses? Anyone landed a professional project shortly after, directly as a result of what you learned and how you improved after taking these courses?

I basically want to know "how did these courses translate into ROI"?

Show me at what level you were at before taking the courses, and then show me what you made right after taking them that shows some of the things they taught you, that you incorporated into your work as a result of their courses (their assignment tracks during the course excluded).

For the price they are charging I want to see some actual data and I want to see some actual real world results. I don't see that on their website anywhere except some vague testimonials that mean absolutely nothing in a real world context. No offense Nik, but that is the truth. Every single website has testimonials and they are all equally worthless.

The website claims its the next generation of online courses. What makes them next generation exactly? I don't see that explained anywhere on the site either. On the contrary, the discussion here mentions that its the same material you can find elsewhere in a similar delivery method.

They say "lets aim for mastery together". What mastery? What does this mean exactly in relation to the courses? How is this mastery calculated? Am I going to become a master after taking the courses? Of course not, its all marketing nonsense.

There is nothing on the MTS website that shows any actual results from students, not even their compositions that include the material that is learned via the courses.

I don't see any of that here in this discussion either. All I saw reading all the way back was Joel and Nik defending their courses and they are both part of the organization and therefore biased. Again nothing personal against either of you guys, I am sure you are both professionals, I just didn't see anyone else actually discussing the value or quality of the courses or any benefits gained from taking them.

It's not really possible to evaluate the quality at this point. Its just arbitrary.

So, I think it's valid to have a discussion on the price point because that's the only data we currently have available. Now whether that discussion on price derailed or not is another matter.

I do agree that this discussion has not moved much and there was a lot of pointless and repeated arguing on both sides were both sides were equally right and wrong at the same time.

What we didn't get in the end was a sense of the "quality" of the product which was the whole point of this thread.

That still has not been properly answered. One person said he was part of the MTS community and a happy customer but never said what he gained out of it that made him feel this way or commented on the quality of the products.

As someone who was looking at one of the courses, I do want to know about the "quality" as well, or at least if the courses are worth it before I drop $500, or even $200, and I don't want to hear it from the owner/creator or the instructors. I want to hear it from someone who actually took the course and I want to see someone show me what they learned incorporated into an end result or at least tell me how it helped them in a real world sense, as in $$$$ or some other ROI, otherwise its all bs.

Someone show me some return on that investment please.

Let me remind you that OP originally asked for someone to explain both the quality/value and the "end result that you got out of them" as well, which means ROI.


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 10, 2022)

@David Baran thanks for your post, a real spot on. Let me talk about Joel's old mixing course on teachable. Honestly, my mixing & mastering got better when I followed his directions and read his little booklet. About Mattia, I watched couple of his YT vids and loved his way of explaining stuff. The thing is you can read all the books and watch all the vids but the real improvement still lies on your daily hands-on and applying the materials.

Look! I took all the Evenant courses, some were good, some were not that good but in the end I improved by opening my DAW everyday and write something, Period!

My usual opinion about online education in general is they just show you the direction to improve, not the magic formula to drink.


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## styledelk (Nov 10, 2022)

I wanted to believe in the possible quality of this, but then I got here:





And it makes me question their attention to detail.


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## MeloKeyz (Nov 10, 2022)

styledelk said:


> I wanted to believe in the possible quality of this, but then I got here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know if I need to cry or laugh seriously


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 10, 2022)

David Baran said:


> I disagree. I think it's perfectly appropriate to hear people's opinions on the price. It is a factor when considering these courses because of how they are priced, and it applies to determining if the value is there or not.
> 
> I haven't seen anything in this discussion about the actual quality of these courses and how actionable they are.
> 
> ...


When you evaluate any educational resource or school, you cannot assume the result of that education is going to be the same for every student. Is every graduate from Harvard a bone fide genius or business mogul? You also cannot assume that every student has the same intention in terms of the outcome of that education - such as, "landing more gigs".

I can say that these courses are very well structured and presented. They cover material in a clearer way (for me) than other courses I have taken (such as Evenant or Thinkspace or Cinematic Composing). They have also provided me access to the instructors (and other like-minded students) to exchange ideas and get questions answered. Like any valuable educational tool, they are a starting point for my further development as a composer. So the ROI for me was they set me on a path to explore certain topics in more depth, have given me more confidence when I am sketching or orchestrating a piece in terms of how to approach it, and most importantly in my case, were time well spent for something I enjoy doing.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 10, 2022)

David Baran said:


> I disagree. I think it's perfectly appropriate to hear people's opinions on the price. It is a factor when considering these courses because of how they are priced, and it applies to determining if the value is there or not.
> 
> I haven't seen anything in this discussion about the actual quality of these courses and how actionable they are.
> 
> ...


I hate to burst your bubble, but no one is going to put that much work into proving the value they gained from courses for a random person on the internet. People can't even be bothered to create 10 second mockups to back up their opinions on differences between sample libraries.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 10, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but no one is going to put that much work into proving the value they gained from courses for a random person on the internet. People can't even be bothered to create 10 second mockups to back up their opinions on differences between sample libraries.


Well, I couldn’t be bothered to read this guy’s novel above - kinda proves your point !


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## Gingerbread (Nov 10, 2022)

David Baran said:


> I disagree. I think it's perfectly appropriate to hear people's opinions on the price. It is a factor when considering these courses because of how they are priced, and it applies to determining if the value is there or not.
> 
> I haven't seen anything in this discussion about the actual quality of these courses and how actionable they are.
> 
> ...


That's an unreasonable standard for any course. With even the very best courses, how much a given student gets out of it will have more to do with what the student puts _into_ it.

Watching videos is a passive experience. You won't get better simply by watching videos, even if they are filled with excellent instruction. Getting better is only accomplished by putting that new knowledge into practice, and then practicing a LOT. Failing a lot. Trying again. And eventually absorbing the material into consistent accomplishment.

And once you've done that, and are brimming with incredible musical abilities, it's still no guarantee it will translate into professional work. That's an entirely different matter, beyond the scope of the course.


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## sundrowned (Nov 10, 2022)

styledelk said:


> I wanted to believe in the possible quality of this, but then I got here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel bad about this but it's too good not to 






The courses look good though.


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## David Baran (Nov 10, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but no one is going to put that much work into proving the value they gained from courses for a random person on the internet. People can't even be bothered to create 10 second mockups to back up their opinions on differences between sample libraries.


I wasn't asking for someone to go out of their way to drop what they are doing and write me a mockup, but if you take some courses and learn some new things, then it's not unreasonable to think that when you make the next few pieces you are going to try to incorporate what you have learned into them. Right? 

I figured people would have some stuff already laying on their drives that clearly shows what their work was like before and what it was after, once they gained the new knowledge and skills and started to actually *apply* what they have learned in these courses. 

That's what I meant by before and after. 

My point was that earlier, no one here said anything about what they actually gained from their experience or showed anything they learned as a result of taking these courses. The website certainly doesn't have any of that information or students sharing any of their work to show what they have gained and how they have applied it.


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## LostintheBardo (Nov 10, 2022)

David Baran said:


> I wasn't asking for someone to go out of their way to drop what they are doing and write me a mockup, but if you take some courses and learn some new things, then it's not unreasonable to think that when you make the next few pieces you are going to try to incorporate what you have learned into them. Right?
> 
> I figured people would have some stuff already laying on their drives that clearly shows what their work was like before and what it was after, once they gained the new knowledge and skills and started to actually *apply* what they have learned in these courses.
> 
> ...


I've been slowly working through the Wizards and Witches course. I'm not very far through it but it's already improved my writing harmonically. I'm not sharing this latest piece because I'm claiming it is anything special especially in comparison to what so many people here are capable of but for me it is a step forward so I think it meets your criteria:


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## David Baran (Nov 10, 2022)

Gingerbread said:


> That's an unreasonable standard for any course. With even the very best courses, how much a given student gets out of it will have more to do with what the student puts _into_ it.
> 
> Watching videos is a passive experience. You won't get better simply by watching videos, even if they are filled with excellent instruction. Getting better is only accomplished by putting that new knowledge into practice, and then practicing a LOT. Failing a lot. Trying again. And eventually absorbing the material into consistent accomplishment.
> 
> And once you've done that, and are brimming with incredible musical abilities, it's still no guarantee it will translate into professional work. That's an entirely different matter, beyond the scope of the course.


I agree that how much a student gets out of a course will have more to do with what that student puts into it, than anything else. We're on the same page here, and in regards to applying what you learned and practicing until you absorbed it and made it part of you.

However, taking like a Mixing course can show more immediate improvement in the quality of the tracks once you apply what they teach you especially if they are teaching you industry standard best practices. The mixing side for example should show noticeable improvement much faster which could lead to landing more professional level work.

I understand that landing professional work (the process of that) is out of scope and is a completely different matter, but I have found that even applying small things here and there can have significant impact on quality and result in getting to the next level and in some cases landing a gig.

I used to do voice acting for example, and I used to take classes for that. There were things I was able to extrapolate from the courses that had immediate improvement on my skills and overall VO game, even though to get to a much greater level required, like you said, putting in a lot of work and practice. Even making some small changes here and there, was enough to get me to the next level, and help me land some gigs because I started to immediately sound more professional when I followed their teaching.

This is no different.

Keep in mind that the marketing here is "Master the Score". They are implying that you will become much better afterward with their training, that I will master i.e. have full "control" of the score.

The mixing course is labeled as "The Ultimate Guide To Professional Mixes". That says a lot. Therefore once I take the course I expect to be able to put together a "professional mix", key term here being "professional", which means it's not unreasonable for me to assume that it could help land me a gig because I will immediately sound better which in some cases is enough to close someone.

Their trailer course is called "Trailer Music: Elevation". This implies it's going to "elevate" my trailer making skills. Based on their verbiage its not unreasonable to assume that after I take the course I should be able to pump out better more elevated, and higher quality trailers.


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## bvaughn0402 (Nov 10, 2022)

I enjoyed Joel's mixing course. The main thing I was after (and had not seen demonstrated or discussed) were specific EQ considerations of various orchestral instruments. I had seen numerous details on pop/rock instruments ... but I had never seen anyone discuss how Violins should be EQd versus Violas. This was extremely helpful to me.


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## David Baran (Nov 10, 2022)

LostintheBardo said:


> I've been slowly working through the Wizards and Witches course. I'm not very far through it but it's already improved my writing harmonically. I'm not sharing this latest piece because I'm claiming it is anything special especially in comparison to what so many people here are capable of but for me it is a step forward so I think it meets your criteria:



Thank you very much. Your example definitely has the magical or maybe mysterious/unknown sound. It actually gives me a Wizards meets Star Wars vibe which I like quite a bit. You got more of that mysterious and unknown thing in there, like Luke walking into some cave on Dagobah for a Jedi test or someone exploring a mysterious tomb.

Not sure if that is what you were aiming for, but it's got this cool dark tense feel to it that would be really suitable for sci-fi, like some ship landing on an alien planet for the first time. 

Glad to hear that you feel it's a step forward in your journey and you are getting value from the course. This is what I was looking for, just some personal feedback about how applicable and useful the courses are, and maybe a use case example. 

What are your thoughts in terms of the amount of content since this is one of their "short" courses? Have you taken any of the other courses from them?


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## David Baran (Nov 10, 2022)

bvaughn0402 said:


> I enjoyed Joel's mixing course. The main thing I was after (and had not seen demonstrated or discussed) were specific EQ considerations of various orchestral instruments. I had seen numerous details on pop/rock instruments ... but I had never seen anyone discuss how Violins should be EQd versus Violas. This was extremely helpful to me.


I was looking at the mixing course for the same reasons actually so that is good to hear. Thank you. Like you, I have come across various content on rock/pop and Edm mixing but not that much on orchestral instruments.


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## bvaughn0402 (Nov 10, 2022)

David Baran said:


> I was looking at the mixing course for the same reasons actually so that is good to hear. Thank you. Like you, I have come across various content on rock/pop and Edm mixing but not that much on orchestral instruments.


It isn't a perfect course by any means. I can see a lot of improvements they could make. But I just had never seen anything that described "problem frequencies" in orchestral instruments. And Joel seems to be known by some in the orchestral mixing world as a sought-after mixer.

I ended up making presets of most of his settings as a starting point.


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## LostintheBardo (Nov 10, 2022)

David Baran said:


> Thank you very much. Your example definitely has the magical or maybe mysterious/unknown sound. It actually gives me a Wizards meets Star Wars vibe which I like quite a bit. You got more of that mysterious and unknown thing in there, like Luke walking into some cave on Dagobah for a Jedi test or someone exploring a mysterious tomb.
> 
> Not sure if that is what you were aiming for, but it's got this cool dark tense feel to it that would be really suitable for sci-fi, like some ship landing on an alien planet for the first time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. I actually had a scenario in mind where a scout ship was arriving at a massive space installation with no idea of what had transpired there or what they were in for so you're bang on. 

In terms of content, I personally feel Witches and Wizards has more than enough for it's price range. I'm only halfway through the first module and I've gleamed so much. The other course I have is Joel's mixing one although I didn't purchase that through Master the Score. It has loads of content and is more than worth the price. I've barely skimmed what it has to offer honestly.


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## VSTHero (Nov 11, 2022)

Ryan’s Pillars of Composition course is solid - basically teaches Caplin concepts of period and sentence and variations on those and small forms. Intro to voice leading/species counterpoint, foundational diatonic harmony and modal interchange. Starter orchestration.

Where it stands out is Ryan is a good presenter and he models using these concepts in real time making new compositions, which really helps you then sit down and practice yourself, replicating the kind of thinking and compositional process. You get to see where he applies the concepts in his thinking and he peppers lots of practical advice in about process as he’s writing.

Also he uses video game music as a reference point for projects which appeals/adds fun for folks who grew up with Final Fantasy and some of their earliest exposure to digital and orchestral music via those games.

So I think it’s a great course for folks who are pretty new, or independently working through books on classical form, basics of orchestration etc and would like to see those applied in real time and reviewed with straight forward clarity. It reinforced what I was learning and helped my process in 100 small ways; even things as simple as anticipating cadences ahead or working backwards for some sections of counterpoint - simple things but watching them in action makes it easier to loosen up and work smarter as a beginner.


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## ka00 (Nov 15, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm glad you asked this question. I wasn't even aware there was a 3 payments option over 3 months.
> 
> Great !
> 
> Thanks.


Don’t you remember back in July when you said you purchased a class from them using pay in 3? Careful you don’t buy the same course over again!

Post in thread '"Pillars of Composition" by Ryan Leach'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/pillars-of-composition-by-ryan-leach.127465/post-5145385

I’m looking forward to the Adam Lukas class.


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## axb312 (Nov 15, 2022)

What were the intro prices on pillars of composition and 20th Century Orchestral writing?

Also, will loyalty and Black friday discounts stack?


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## ka00 (Nov 15, 2022)

axb312 said:


> Also, will loyalty and Black friday discounts stack?


How do you even get loyalty codes? I don’t see anything in my account.


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## axb312 (Nov 15, 2022)

ka00 said:


> How do you even get loyalty codes? I don’t see anything in my account.


I am not sure perhaps @nik can help with our questions.


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