# Ravenscroft 275. Does it really sound like the demos?



## steveo42 (Apr 2, 2016)

Long time lurker first post here. Jazz pianist who likes the bright, Nashville sounding piano but not over the top. Playability is extremely important, mostly repedaling to catch the strings and samples that don't die immediately when lifting off the key. I'm using a Roland RD700 and a Roland RD 150 in my studio.

I already own:

1. Ivory "Everything except uprights.
2. Pianoteq 5.0 with everything.
3 Addictive Keys (BOGO.. Don't ask..)

So right now American D and Pianoteq Steinway B are my go to for inspirational playing but no matter how much I tweak I can't get that "stringy, in your face" type sound that I am hearing with the Ravenscroft 275 at least from the demos.

So taking the Eric Griggs demo, for those of you that own the Ravenscroft 275, does it actually sound like this demo? 



Anything you don't like?

Alternatively, have any of you been able to tweak say Pianoteq or Ivory American D (or any Ivory piano) to sound like this?
If so, would you mind sharing your settings?

Thank you so much in advance for any advice.


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## Maestro1972 (Apr 2, 2016)

Because I am not a great pianist, I downloaded a midi file and recorded it with the Ravenscroft 275. I personally love the piano. This is just the piano with the same settings as the demo by Erik Griggs. No post production.

I would also like to mention that a friend of mine came over and played the Ravenscroft and bought it for himself that evening. He is a jazz pianist for the USMC and he said that it is his favorite virtual piano.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 2, 2016)

steveo42 said:


> Ravenscroft 275, does it actually sound like this demo?




Even better. I am not into jazz, but my Beethoven renditions on Ravenscroft 275 once made someone to think they were recordings, and include them in a radio program


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## slobajudge (Apr 2, 2016)

Ravenscroft is a beautiful piano, but you also need a good equipment to hear it. Earlier with some cheap speakers, I was thinking that I dont like it to much. When I change speakers, I think: oh, is it the same piano ? what happened ? I like it.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Apr 3, 2016)

In my view, the way it sounds and its playability is the best around today.


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## AllanH (Apr 3, 2016)

I just want to point out that the other key piece in the excellent performance is a customized Kawai VPC1. Eric Griggs' demo is one of the best.

Here's my favorite. It's fun to hear Dan Delaney's comments:


Edit: typos.


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## AllanH (Apr 3, 2016)

Forgot to comment on the opening question: I think the sound, as heard on YouTube, is fairly accurate, but a bit softer than what I recall. I found the Ravencroft a bit metallic sounding, and ultimately decided to not get it. 

As a FYI, my favorite piano is a modified D4 from Pianoteq, and second is the Garritan CFX.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 3, 2016)

AllanH said:


> As a FYI, my favorite piano is a modified D4 from Pianoteq.



Plastic sounding to my ears, no soul, no mojo.


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## WorshipMaestro (Apr 3, 2016)

The 275 is my favorite virtual piano. The different mic positions make it usable for a wide variety of styles.


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## steveo42 (Apr 4, 2016)

Thank you all so much for posting your impressions. Maestro1972, your clip sounds just like the demos at least to my ears! Thank you for posting that one! AllanH, I listened to that excellent clip and Dan's playing style is amazing. His hands literally float over the keyboard and it doesn't even look like he is playing the tune, although I know he is! Quite an interesting technique! 

So I have my own project studio so the I have the monitoring system covered (MOTU Ultralite AVB interface, JBL, Genelec, Event monitors, AKG Q701/Sony 7506, ATH-M50x headphones etc... Studio One V3 DAW.).

So, I'm gonna pull the plug and purchase this one and I have to admit I'm like a kid at Xmas time because I have been looking for this type of piano sound in a VSTi ( bright, clear, punchy and yet playable) for years and even with external processing (Waves, Ozone etc) was never really able to mimic it.
This should be a wonderful compliment to my other piano VSTi and round out my collection nicely!

So once again, thank you all for your advice and your experiences. I will certainly report back after playing around with my new toy for a few days!


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## AllanH (Apr 4, 2016)

Looking forward to hearing your impressions Steveo42. The headphones you have (I have them too) have a good frequency response, so it'll be interesting to hear how much additional detail you hear when playing.


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## AllanH (Apr 4, 2016)

Re Dan Delaney's technique: I've never had the opportunity to try one of the modified VPC1s, but I have Kawai CA97 with excellent action. It's delightful to play. That does make a difference for someone as skilled as Delaney, who clearly is a fantastic piano player.


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## prodigalson (Apr 4, 2016)

I tried out the Ravenscroft VI on the custom modified VPC 1 by Ravenworks at NAMM this year and it was truly a phenomenal experience. I had come over from the Roland room just across the hall and after having spent quite some time playing the Roland V-Piano the Ravenscroft/VPC1 combo was like night and day. As soon as I have a reason to spend $6,000 on a digital piano, the Ravenworks VPC1 build will be what I buy.


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## steveo42 (Apr 11, 2016)

As promised my review of the Ravenscroft 275... This is just a VERY BASIC REVIEW, let's call it first impressions. So first off, I'm a jazz pianist, not trained, horrible fingering but very adept at using the sustain pedal to compensate... Alright, you classical fans can stop laughing now  So, to answer the question in the subject line, YES, YES,YES this piano DOES sound like the demos on Youtube and the manufacturer's site... It really does... So to recap, my requirements were a bright sounding, stringy, Nashville type piano that is highly playable. Think the intro to Dolly Parton's "Here You Come Again" minus the flanger they pumped the piano through.. That kind of sound minus the phasey type stuff...

So.. With out further adieu or a don't (try the fish it's on special this week!)...

This is all factory settings, no tweaking... I haven't even figured out how to tweak yet 

First impression is wow, this sucker has some balls...
Seriously.
American D is great on the low end but this one blows it away.. Slam a note in the lowest octave and your room will shake... You can almost feel it through the keyboard.. VERY powerful.
Uppers are crisp and clean without sounding like plastic.
Mids, which is really the toughest range to produce are clear and even sounding. Again play soft to progressively louder and the piano just reacts.

This piano IMHO is very inspirational.. It encourages the player to use the entire keyboard and I find myself playing my typical library of tunes differently and embellishing on them more because I want to hear the entire range of notes and I don't subconsciously avoid certain ranges because they don't sound great.

Complaints?

The interface is new to me, a little confusing at first but I will learn it.
I'm no fan of Kontakt's interface BTW. In fact I dislike it intensely.
I haven't found a manual for the instrument yet. Looking for explanations of what things do.
Other than those nits, nothing.

Overall, this is an A+ in my book.

I'll post some noodling when I get a chance.
Again, thanks for all the suggestions from members of the group!


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## AllanH (Apr 11, 2016)

That is very exciting and encouraging. Thank you for posting your review and thoughts.

I really do miss the physical feedback, including the reverberation felt in the keys when digging in. It's probably just a matte of time before some of the haptic feedback technology makes it into the keyboards.

Back on topic - thanks again !

Allan


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## owenave (Apr 12, 2016)

Big Fish has it on their Ebay for $179.


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## tfishbein82 (Apr 13, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Plastic sounding to my ears, no soul, no mojo.


When was the last time you tried it? The model has been improved over time.

In any event, I don't use the D4 much, because I find the Bluethner and especially Model B to be wonderful.


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## newman (Apr 14, 2016)

AllanH said:


> I just want to point out that the other key piece in the excellent performance is a customized Kawai VPC1. Eric Griggs' demo is one of the best.
> 
> Here's my favorite. It's fun to hear Dan Delaney's comments:
> 
> ...




I would be curious to know what hardware is being used by Ravenscroft at NAMM. In particular, what monitors and DAC were they using live in that large room?

You can see the monitors and their placement in the Dan Delaney NAMM 2015 video posted above. They appear to be the same monitors used in the Rulsan Sirota NAMM 2014 video on youtube.

VI-Labs did not detail all the gear they used at NAMM 2014 but did mention in the youtube video comments that they had:

- MacBook Pro i7 Processor, 16GB of RAM
- Apogee Duet (which I see has a green cable connected to the AKG Q701 headphones resting on the controller)
- Custom Ravensworks - Kawai VPC1 controller
- All youtube sound came straight out of the MacBook Pro with no editing (enjoyable playing, interesting comments from the players, and nice sound!)

Thanks,

N


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## owenave (Apr 14, 2016)

newman said:


> I would be curious to know what hardware is being used by Ravenscroft at NAMM. In particular, what monitors and DAC were they using live in that large room?
> 
> You can see the monitors and their placement in the Dan Delaney NAMM 2015 video posted above. They appear to be the same monitors used in the Rulsan Sirota NAMM 2014 video on youtube.
> 
> ...


Also good to know that it is fast enough with a good interface like the Apogee to use the piano live. Question... How much does the Custome Ravensworks - Kawai VPC1 Controller cost? anyone know?
Thanks


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## cadenzajon (Apr 15, 2016)

According to https://ravenworksdigital.com/modified-vpc1/ $5,499 and up...


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## steveo42 (Apr 15, 2016)

The monitor looks like a Focal Solo 6. It's tough to tell but it appears to have the unique Focal inverted tweeter. The green cord is the standard color cable that comes with the AKG Q701 Quincy Jones headphones.


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## newman (Apr 16, 2016)

Thank you Steve.

I believe that you are correct on the monitors. In fact, a chap named Russell Meyer wrote that the Spreemans recommended this monitor for the Ravenscroft 275 on the sweetwater site (see quote and link below).

Based on the web of wires and the newer macbook in the youtube video, I will assume they are using an Apogee Duet 2 DAC both to the active Focal monitors and to the headphones (via that green wire). Russell Meyer wrote he is using the Apollo Twin as his DAC.

Can't see any subwoofers in the video but I would assume they are in the huge demo hall. 
________

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Solo6Be/reviews

"I have a system dedicated to ultra-realistic piano sound. A Kawai VPC1 controller (dramatically upgraded by Spreeman Piano Innovations,) and the VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 concert grand software, routed through an Apollo Twin. The sound was beautiful, but I felt that I was missing some detail and perhaps keyboard sensitivity. So, I went all-in on the Focal Solo6 Be monitors - on the recommendation of the Spreemans, who built the sampled Ravenscroft grand, and... I - am - amazed! Not only was the variety of tone, um, tripled, but the variety of touch possible on the Kawai-Spreeman keyboard had been masked by the more homogenous sound of the previous monitors. Suddenly, I had to refine my touch because the monitors reflected everything I did, I finally have an electronic combination startlingly close to a fine acoustic instrument. Voices are perfectly clear - through an adjustment of touch, the timbre is actually dramatically changed - these monitors differentiate everything fed to them - perfectly!

Oh, and as a side note, the solid and accurate bass is surprising - given the woofer's size. It's actually more accurate than a 10-1/2 inch high-quality sub I own. I'll end up with the matching Focal subwoofer, but I'm quite content to work with these Solo6 monitors until I can spring for it; they're very satisfying, they present no sonic obstacle to anything you do."


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## wbacer (Apr 16, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone use the Vienna Imperial? How would that compare?


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## slobajudge (Apr 16, 2016)

wbacer said:


> Just out of curiosity, does anyone use the Vienna Imperial? How would that compare?



I play both, I love both. I dont have expensive equipment mention above (Focal and Apollo twin, mine is JBL lsr308 and Presonus 22vsl played on Kawai VPC1), but VSL Vienna have much more dynamic power then Ravenscroft. It is not strange because VSL have almost x7 times more velocity levels. I love classical and ambiental music, so this is very important for me. I mostly use VSL when I want to play solo or record something. They put a massive number of samples to accomplish simplicity and power, no waste here (lots of microphone positions, etc), and you can feel and hear that from the moment you start to play.


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## wbacer (Apr 16, 2016)

slobajudge said:


> I play both, I love both. I dont have all equipment mention above, but VSL Vienna have much more dynamic power then Ravenscroft. It is not strange because VSL have almost x7 times more velocity levels. I love classical and ambiental music, so this is very important for me. I mostly use VSL when I want to play solo or record something.


I also have both. I agree, the Vienna Imperial does have more dynamics and both sound great. Thanks for your feedback.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 16, 2016)

As a piano player I have to say that the OP's demo sounds perfectly dreadful. Just awful where you want it to stop and maybe put on a Bill Evans record to heal yourself. Those things don't work with real nuanced piano music - how can they? Pianos are machines and without all those wonderful mechanics going on you have an abstraction that falls down completely. That doesn't mean they don't have their purpose and can be used in certain ways within certain contexts. But alone and trying to sound like a real piano alone they give themselves away in milliseconds. Very painful milliseconds.

This reminds me of Hans Zimmer's concept for a sampled piano which I think is exactly right. He exploits the things you can do with a piano that are not traditional and not at all intended to replace the real thing. It's not designed for Gershwin or Beethoven or even the piano fugues of Keith Emerson. For a Keith Emerson film score or a cool pianistic-type thing on a record - sure, all day long no problem. The point being that the goal is not to replace a real piano but essentially create a new instrument - a cousin that is removed but obviously a part of the family while completely unique. An instrument that doesn't tempt you to replace a real piano but lures you into places a real piano cannot go without a transformative and fortune-costing approach to sampling it.

Maybe I'm just complaining about demos of solo piano music that is classic in nature and simply cannot be done with samples with the demos not intended to convince in that way. That seems a tortured approach though: to demonstrate all the ways a sampled instrument fails to sound like the real thing.


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## slobajudge (Apr 16, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> As a piano player I have to say that the OP's demo sounds perfectly dreadful. Just awful where you want it to stop and maybe put on a Bill Evans record to heal yourself. Those things don't work with real nuanced piano music - how can they? Pianos are machines and without all those wonderful mechanics going on you have an abstraction that falls down completely. That doesn't mean they don't have their purpose and can be used in certain ways within certain contexts. But alone and trying to sound like a real piano alone they give themselves away in milliseconds. Very painful milliseconds.
> 
> This reminds me of Hans Zimmer's concept for a sampled piano which I think is exactly right. He exploits the things you can do with a piano that are not traditional and not at all intended to replace the real thing. It's not designed for Gershwin or Beethoven or even the piano fugues of Keith Emerson. For a Keith Emerson film score or a cool pianistic-type thing on a record - sure, all day long no problem. The point being that the goal is not to replace a real piano but essentially create a new instrument - a cousin that is removed but obviously a part of the family while completely unique. An instrument that doesn't tempt you to replace a real piano but lures you into places a real piano cannot go without a transformative and fortune-costing approach to sampling it.
> 
> Maybe I'm just complaining about demos of solo piano music that is classic in nature and simply cannot be done with samples with the demos not intended to convince in that way. That seems a tortured approach though: to demonstrate all the ways a sampled instrument fails to sound like the real thing.



Don't be so critical. We all want acoustic Steinway but don`t have a money for it. Also, it is not appropriate for all situations where digital shines. Yes, the sound and feel can`t be compared (good acoustic grands), but at the end the music is the goal, not instruments itself. Also, digital journey to accomplish acoustic sound is very interesting.


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## wbacer (Apr 16, 2016)

Yes and even the best midi mock ups don't sound like a real orchestra.
Twenty years ago, what we can do today was barely on the radar.
It's only 2016, wait another 10 or 20 years and who knows...just maybe.


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## newman (Apr 16, 2016)

Dave - I do think you make a some great points in general. One could argue that you might be a bit harsh as these are unedited audio clips (per VI Labs) uploaded to the highly compressed youtube. 

Ravenscroft 275 does a pretty good job for under $200, a popular price most anyone can afford. The NAMM demos by Sam Matthews and Sam Sorensen may be music better suited to the software, so check them out.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 16, 2016)

slobajudge said:


> Don't be so critical, We all want acoustic Steinway but don`t have a money for it. Also, it is not appropriate for all situations where digital shines. Yes, the sound and feel can`t be compared (good acoustic grands), but at the end the music is the goal, not instruments itself. Also, digital journey to acoustic is very interesting.


You are being critical of my view which of course I have no problem with. You must allow me and the rest of the world the same courtesy I'm afraid. But back to the topic…

As I said, you can get away with a sampled piano for numerous things perhaps but NOT as a solo piano instrument playing music designed for it such as Jazz or the Classics. The demo posted only confirms that. When I say that the demo sounds horrid I am not being critical as much as simply being honest. It is not a prejudicial statement but a scientific comparison brought on by the demo's inviting comparison. I love all kinds of piano-type instruments such as the Rhodes, Pianet and all those different Keys going back decades. Or a compressed piano that sounds unnatural in a Pop track but works great. As I also said, maybe it's the demo approach. These instruments should be demoed to their strengths.

People have been recording pianos for a century now and performing on them for several more. Find a way to record a real one if you're need that sound and behavior of the real thing. Sure if you have source music playing in the background on a film and you do what you can with placement and reverb maybe it will work and help your budget. But if someone submits a demo that is an A/B comparison with the real thing with music that is highly idiomatic they are going to get honest feedback like mine.


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 16, 2016)

So, the customized Ravenscroft VPC has 


Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure
all the things that I would have expected Kawai to do to begin with, at a price tag around 2.5K. Ah well... <shrugs>


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## Dave Connor (Apr 16, 2016)

wbacer said:


> Yes and even the best midi mock ups don't sound like a real orchestra.
> Twenty years ago, what we can do today was barely on the radar.
> It's only 2016, wait another 10 or 20 years and who knows...just maybe.


I understand that and we all hope for better and more realistic samples etc. Mockups are designed to be replaced by the real thing because they do fall so far short. Even so there are good and bad sampled instruments out there and even the most expensive piano samples fall short. If you notice, I am in fact trying to be helpful by suggesting the demos be more favorable to the instruments. Show them in a better light. Side by side with classic piano music is very rough going.


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## slobajudge (Apr 16, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> I understand that and we all hope for better and more realistic samples etc. Mockups are designed to be replaced by the real thing because they do fall so far short. Even so there are good and bad sampled instruments out there and even the most expensive piano samples fall short. If you notice, I am in fact trying to be helpful by suggesting the demos be more favorable to the instruments. Show them in a better light. Side by side with classic piano music is very rough going.



No hard feelings, I agree with you, but its a long way from digital to acoustic sound perfection. I explore with something I can reach at the moment.


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## slobajudge (Apr 17, 2016)

G.R. Baumann said:


> So, the customized Ravenscroft VPC has
> 
> 
> Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
> ...



This customized VPC is around 6000 $. You cant get it either for 1.5 or 2.5k.


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## Baron Greuner (Apr 17, 2016)

Pianos are percussion instruments. 

Most midi keyboards are not.


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## Monkberry (Apr 17, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> You are being critical of my view which of course I have no problem with. You must allow me and the rest of the world the same courtesy I'm afraid. But back to the topic…
> 
> As I said, you can get away with a sampled piano for numerous things perhaps but NOT as a solo piano instrument playing music designed for it such as Jazz or the Classics. The demo posted only confirms that. When I say that the demo sounds horrid I am not being critical as much as simply being honest. It is not a prejudicial statement but a scientific comparison brought on by the demo's inviting comparison. I love all kinds of piano-type instruments such as the Rhodes, Pianet and all those different Keys going back decades. Or a compressed piano that sounds unnatural in a Pop track but works great. As I also said, maybe it's the demo approach. These instruments should be demoed to their strengths.
> 
> People have been recording pianos for a century now and performing on them for several more. Find a way to record a real one if you're need that sound and behavior of the real thing. Sure if you have source music playing in the background on a film and you do what you can with placement and reverb maybe it will work and help your budget. But if someone submits a demo that is an A/B comparison with the real thing with music that is highly idiomatic they are going to get honest feedback like mine.


Passionate discussions should always be welcome here. It's a positive catalyst for progress. Sampled instruments have come quite far to date and I believe most of us would want that progress to continue. A/B comparisons are inevitably part of the process. Obviously, the moment electricity enters the equation, the acoustical properties have been altered. Should that stop us from micing a Steinway for a recording? My point is that there are varying levels of purity.

As this discussion led to the mention of the customized Kawai VPC1 controller and the vast improvement it offers, positive progress is at work here. Unfortunately the $6000 price tag is regress. $500 maybe, but $6000?


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## Baron Greuner (Apr 17, 2016)

For 6K you could buy a really good Bechstein in an auction house, all the mics necessary to record it.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 17, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> I understand that and we all hope for better and more realistic samples etc. Mockups are designed to be replaced by the real thing because they do fall so far short. Even so there are good and bad sampled instruments out there and even the most expensive piano samples fall short. If you notice, I am in fact trying to be helpful by suggesting the demos be more favorable to the instruments. Show them in a better light. Side by side with classic piano music is very rough going.



It depends, Dave. Would it pass muster if I sat and played Rachmaninoff or Bill Evans in a concert hall? (Not that I can anymore  No.

Will a sampled piano work well enough in a score playing Classical or jazz style music so that the audience, director and producer will find it acceptable? Sure. I have been doing so for over 25 years now and the sampled pianos are better now than when I started doing it.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 17, 2016)

I`ve assembled a quick roll with snippets of mine Ravenscroft 275 usage. I found this great plugin quite sufficient to impress the average listener at least.


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## wbacer (Apr 17, 2016)

slobajudge said:


> This customized VPC is around 6000 $. You cant get it either for 1.5 or 2.5k.


So where can you get one of these for 1.5 or 2.5k?


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## AllanH (Apr 17, 2016)

wbacer said:


> So where can you get one of these for 1.5 or 2.5k?


I would get an MP11, or even a CA97, both of which has a better action to begin with.

The CA97 has a delightful Shigeru Grand as part of its instruments. The MP11 is one generation back, but has a better form factor. We have a CA97 and I truly enjoy playing it.


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## tack (Apr 17, 2016)

Or if you don't intend to use the speakers on the piano, get the lower priced CA67 which has the same action as the CA97. I'm very happy with the CA67 (which I use to drive VIs under headphones).


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## slobajudge (Apr 17, 2016)

wbacer said:


> So where can you get one of these for 1.5 or 2.5k?



It is not possible for customized VPC. 1.5k is the price (more or less) of Kawai VPC1. 2.5k is the hope (my too) from previous post of user Baumann that technology from customized VPC should be already there in Kawai products by now for 2.5k. Sorry for misunderstanding.


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## Fleer (Apr 17, 2016)

tfishbein82 said:


> When was the last time you tried it? The model has been improved over time.
> 
> In any event, I don't use the D4 much, because I find the Bluethner and especially Model B to be wonderful.


+1


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## wbacer (Apr 17, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your digital piano recommendations.
I'm really looking for a good compact 88-key controller to drive the vi's on my Mac that has the feel of a real piano.
Really don't need any onboard sounds, effects, etc. The Ravenworks mod looks great but... $$$
I see that you can get a Kawai VPC1 on Amazon for $1,849. That may be a good fit for my project studio.
Thanks again for everyone's feedback, much appreciated.


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## AllanH (Apr 17, 2016)

If I were to get a new keyboard, I would check out Studio Logic SL88. Studio Logic is retail brand of Fatar, which makes my favorite keybeds.

http://www.studiologic-music.com/sl88-features.html

The SL88 is a midi controller (similar to VPC1), has wooden keys, graded action, and can be had for under $900.

I have NOT tried it, so my enthusiasm is entirely based on having used other Fatar actions.


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## wbacer (Apr 17, 2016)

Thanks Allan, the Studiologic also looks like it would a good choice.


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## slobajudge (Apr 17, 2016)

Studiologic sl88 is a good product for the money, but if the money is not an issue, I suggest Kawai VPC1. Studiologic is nowhere near quality of keybed mechanism in Kawai VPC1. Kawai create and emulate real piano action with counterweights in VPC, and its very similar with the much more expensive Kawai products. Studiologic has only wooden keys and similar mechanism of cheap keyboards under 1k.


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## wbacer (Apr 17, 2016)

All good advice. I'm not sure where else a person could go to get such helpful suggestions.
If you go to a store, they are going to try and sell you want they have on hand.
If you buy off a website, you never know what you're going to get.
I really appreciate this forum, and the musicians who hang out here.


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## newman (Apr 18, 2016)

There is a guy named pianomanchuck on youtube that discusses digital pianos. He has a few introductory videos on the: Kawai VPC1, the Ravenworks-Kawai VPC1, and the StudioLogic. I don't know if these are independent or promotions but do think that they are worth checking out (no links below, just type the video title into your browser).

He is an abundantly positive person and likes all of these controllers. In the videos, he has a few strong opinions relating to where each controller excels, which I find most useful: 

- Kawai VPC1 - Followup / Final Review

- Ravenworks Digital's customized Kawai VPC1 piano controller -- Amazing!

- StudioLogic SL88 grand piano keyboard controller - Followup, Conclusions


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## wbacer (Apr 18, 2016)

Thanks newman, I'll check out his site.


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## steveo42 (Apr 18, 2016)

Oh boy!! What happened? I disappear for a couple of days and everything goes to heck in a hand basket lol ! Where do I begin.. Sorry folks, didn't intend this one to be a VSTi vs real piano thread but seeing as all seem interested in the topic, and why not, let's discuss!!

Ok, so I think we can all agree that while the current state of digital pianos is incredible, it has not approached a real piano. At least not from our perspective, the player, the artist, the performer.

Agreed?

So that brings us to what is a "realistic sounding" digital piano, and so I don't have to keep typing that let's just say VSTi and cover all fake pianos.

There is no answer.

It depends.

Style of music. Piano brand being modeled or sampled. How well does it PLAY.. That is HUGE... for us performers. Less so for the audience.
And even if you take say Bill Evans. I am a huge Bill Evans fan. Listen to his recordings. They all sound different. Why? The engineer, the particular piano, the mics, the room, the post processing, maybe he had a bad night, etc... And the same can be said of Garner, Waller, Powell, Peterson, etc..
There is absolutely zero consistency in in of their recordings.

So unless you were lucky enough to sit in the room with Bill or Oscar or etc nobody really knows how their piano sounds.

So for me, a pro jazz pianist who grew up in NYC and like most of you have been playing on crap, out of tune, freshly painted though, pianos I have been longing for 40 years or so for a pristine piano sound. Something like Peter Nero, the pianos on Lawrence Welk (Baldwins) which sparkled with a crisp sound. Roger Williams, Oscar, Bill, all of them.
My parents had a clapped out upright that was once a player piano. I paid a fortune, many times, to have it tuned, voiced etc but it never approached what I was hearing on records in the 60's, 70's and onward.

So I found a Baldwin concert grand in a church near my house and I would drag my Tascam 80-8 and Nakamichi mics over there to record myself. I would give free concerts for the church goers in exchange for them letting me use their piano.

Later in life, I acquired a Steinway B which I have to this day. Great piano once it was restored with Renner action and eliminating those plastic clicking things (sorry don't know the specifics) that it had in the keyboard.

Sooooooooo, the net of it is I can now play a piano that is perfectly in tune, doesn't require $5k in mics and a perfect room to record and for the most part when coupled with a quality weighted controller is pretty much like playing the real thing.

People can scoff at it all they want.
People can nit pick and talk about this resonance, that resonance and so forth but if they ever had to actually record a real piano they would learn real quickly that it isn't as easy as they think.

So I get a tremendous amount of pleasure with Ivory, Pianoteq and now Ravenscroft and I literally defy anyone, including the naysayers, when placed in a double blind test to consistently pick out the fake piano from the real one. And I mean as a solo instrument.
Put these VSTi in a mix and literally nobody can tell the difference.
And those that can maybe need to start enjoying the music itself instead of picking on the minutia tonalities.
That's a fact.


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## AllanH (Apr 18, 2016)

newman said:


> There is a guy named pianomanchuck on youtube ...



Pianomanchuck also has a couple of older videos where he has the actual single-key action from an MP11 and an VPC1 so one can see how they are different. Well worth watching. I really like the Kawaii piano action for pure piano play.


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## steveo42 (Apr 18, 2016)

I'm straining at the bit commenting on Fatar controllers... So I have to speak my piece... Understand this is a more than few years old so things might have changed however I still have a bad taste in my fingers... So anyway, the SL range.. I was on tour with 3 of them. One a dedicated controller, SL 9xx, something or other and 2 Ensoniq keyboards with Fatar weighted actions. A TS-12 and a KS-32 if I remember correctly. All of them sucked and broke down continuously. My keyboard tech had a fishing tackle box with felt, glue, pieces of plastic and other crap he used to mend these things.. Biggest problem was the weights which were encased in a very, very brittle plastic case which of course would shatter and send parts flying all over the place. And the truth is, if you opened up the keybed you would see that the weights were not completely molded into their plastic holders and that coupled with the brittle plastic caused us nightmares.
This stuff was total shit but you know how endorsements go.....

Anyway, like I said, things may have changed but I still feel ill when I see a Fatar keybed..


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## AllanH (Apr 18, 2016)

You obviously have more experience with the Fatars than I have. I might have been lucky, but the TP40L in my Kurzweil has been great. My Kurz doesn't travel, so that might explain it. Steveo42 - I appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences.


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## steveo42 (Apr 18, 2016)

Kurz are some of the best! The only Kurz I could ever afford was the Micropiano module lol !! One thing about Fatar and I don't know this for fact but I do suspect that since they provide keybeds for many OEM, the specs are different even if the TPxx number is the same. Reason I bring this up is certain OEM have very little online complaints about the Fatar keybed while others seem to have many even with the same TPxx number/model supposedly in many OEM products. Doesn't make sense to me. That being said call me a masochist (sadist? I get them confused??) I am looking at the new Fatar controller the SL 88 Grand.. It's for my stay at home studio so it doesn't have to be hardened for the road. Looks pretty good to me.. Anyone own one?


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## Dave Connor (Apr 19, 2016)

steveo42 said:


> Oh boy!! What happened? I disappear for a couple of days and everything goes to heck in a hand basket lol ! Where do I begin.. Sorry folks, didn't intend this one to be a VSTi vs real piano thread but seeing as all seem interested in the topic, and why not, let's discuss!!
> 
> Ok, so I think we can all agree that while the current state of digital pianos is incredible, it has not approached a real piano. At least not from our perspective, the player, the artist, the performer.
> 
> ...


What's your favorite piano concerto or jazz trio recording done with a sampled piano?


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## steveo42 (Apr 19, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> What's your favorite piano concerto or jazz trio recording done with a sampled piano?



I couldn't tell ya and that's just the point. I've seen both George Duke and George Winston live and they were playing sampled pianos. For a recording, especially a famous artist, they are almost always going to be playing a real piano unless they are looking for a particular sound or if a sampled piano just happens to sit in the mix in the context of the tune. Nobody is claiming sampled pianos have reached the point where they are exact copies of real pianos any more than sample orchestra libraries are exact copies of a real orchestra. However, samples are used all the time for movie soundtracks and so forth and how many people sitting in the audience can tell the instruments are fake? Very few including me most of the time.


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## Baron Greuner (Apr 19, 2016)

Its not so much about the sound particularly of a sampled piano (although a really good acoustic real piano is impossible to beat), it's more about the playability of them that concerns me, because lets face it, we can't all mic up a Steinway or Bechstein at home and just start recording.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 19, 2016)

steveo42 said:


> I couldn't tell ya and that's just the point. I've seen both George Duke and George Winston live and they were playing sampled pianos. For a recording, especially a famous artist, they are almost always going to be playing a real piano unless they are looking for a particular sound or if a sampled piano just happens to sit in the mix in the context of the tune. Nobody is claiming sampled pianos have reached the point where they are exact copies of real pianos any more than sample orchestra libraries are exact copies of a real orchestra. However, samples are used all the time for movie soundtracks and so forth and how many people sitting in the audience can tell the instruments are fake? Very few including me most of the time.


I'm sure people are missing my point. Everyone and their brother plays a sampled piano live including me for countless practical reasons. However, if someone posts a piece that is a very pianistic Jazz or Classical piece and asks the opinion of it's sound, they are going to get an honest answer. Particularly from a pianist. Now, myriad points, rationalizations and justifications can follow (most completely obvious and well known) which cannot change the original question and answer regarding the sound of this or that sampled instrument.


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## steveo42 (Apr 19, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> I'm sure people are missing my point. Everyone and their brother plays a sampled piano live including me for countless practical reasons. However, if someone posts a piece that is a very pianistic Jazz or Classical piece and asks the opinion of it's sound, they are going to get an honest answer. Particularly from a pianist. Now, myriad points, rationalizations and justifications can follow (most completely obvious and well known) which cannot change the original question and answer regarding the sound of this or that sampled instrument.



Absolutely Dave! I agree 100 percent!


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 19, 2016)

I might agree in general, but this topic was started as a premise "does Ravenscroft kick **s" - and I fail to find that "honest answer" mentioned, at least to the stuff I posted.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 19, 2016)

Vlzmusic said:


> I might agree in general, but this topic was started as a premise "does Ravenscroft kick **s" - and I fail to find that "honest answer" mentioned, at least to the stuff I posted.


Ok then. The unnatural sounding mid range in the opening Chopin is a dead giveaway (a common problem in sampled pianos.) Next is Chopin etude? The emerging bass line couldn't sound more fake and unnatural. When you get to the famous eighth note tune of Fur Elise - ouch, that is just brutal and something I've never heard from even a Wurlitzer spinet in a lifetime of playing and listening. I won't comment on the Moonlight Sonata out of respect for the composer and the piece. That's the Rachmaninov G#minor at the end? When you have those types of dense harmonies you get a welling up of overtones that remains one of the most difficult things to emulate still it seems. It just shouts 'electric' and not acoustic.

I see the attraction and hear the moments that people like - I like them too. However, I do not have a predilection to say something sounds great that doesn't. Better and improved? Maybe, but still a far cry from the real thing.

I do mockups professionally and do the best I can. I've never questioned the composer though when he cringes at a sample or legato transition he doesn't like. He's not being a snob any more than I am. He's just listening and giving his honest opinion.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 20, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> Ok then.



That`s fair enough, Dave, though some of those seem to relate to bad "programming" on my part, rather than the sound of the Ravenscroft itself. I`ll tell you what - I am far from being piano purist, being a vocal specialist, and not piano one, I could make a similar assessment on many vocal products or recordings, so your post didn`t fall on deaf ears. Still - the only reason for posting those was evident lack of user demos in a post about this plugin`s sound, which I find a pity.


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## steveo42 (Apr 20, 2016)

Well, as the OP who posed the original question, that answer is yes the Ravenscroft does indeed sound like the demos and does play very well. Since that is the type of unique sound or character I was looking for to compliment my library of pianos I am very satisfied.


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## Robert Jason (Jun 11, 2018)

AllanH said:


> I just want to point out that the other key piece in the excellent performance is a customized Kawai VPC1. Eric Griggs' demo is one of the best.
> 
> Here's my favorite. It's fun to hear Dan Delaney's comments:
> 
> ...



What a pleasure toy hear Dan's immensely entertaining rendition of "Out of Nowhere." Art Tatum is smiling. So musical, Dan. I own the 270 software, and it plays nicely on the NI S80. That said, the Kawaii would be a dream. many thanks for posting this.


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## Robert Jason (Jun 11, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Plastic sounding to my ears, no soul, no mojo.


Jay, plastic? I think you need to come out here to Nashville, and hear what REALLY plastic music sounds like. About 20 minutes...make that 10 of "Bro-Country" and you find the Ravenscroft GOLDEN. haha


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## Ashermusic (Jun 11, 2018)

Robert Jason said:


> Jay, plastic? I think you need to come out here to Nashville, and hear what REALLY plastic music sounds like. About 20 minutes...make that 10 of "Bro-Country" and you find the Ravenscroft GOLDEN. haha




Hey Robert, great to hear from you.

Folks, if you don't know of him, Robert is a _ridiculously_ talented singer, pianist, songwriter, and producer.


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## odod (Mar 28, 2020)

its 2020 now, is the discussion still ongoing or we have our winner here ?


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## lumcas (Mar 28, 2020)

Say again????

BTW, necroposting is also my favorite thing


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## lumcas (Mar 28, 2020)

It what sense do you mean "our winner"? If you mean "the best" piano, then no and there will never be a consensus what is the best real or sampled piano and rightly so.


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## odod (Mar 28, 2020)

Hi, omg i am so sorry i posted on the wrong thread because the forum is really slow on my browser ... i was on the comparation thread. Since i am comparing ravenscroft vs pianoteq .. sorry for this odd post


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## FredericBernard (Mar 22, 2021)

odod said:


> its 2020 now, is the discussion still ongoing or we have our winner here ?


How does it position these days? I mean, of course it's still a question of taste, but I wonder if
this VST is worth its 200 bugs? Have been using the EWQL pianos (Steinway/Bosendorfer) for
quite a while. Would be even more interesting for someone which tried both Ravenscroft 275 vs. EWQL Pianos!

Cheers!
-Frederic


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## Duncan Krummel (Mar 22, 2021)

FredericBernard said:


> How does it position these days? I mean, of course it's still a question of taste, but I wonder if
> this VST is worth its 200 bugs? Have been using the EWQL pianos (Steinway/Bosendorfer) for
> quite a while. Would be even more interesting for someone which tried both Ravenscroft 275 vs. EWQL Pianos!
> 
> ...


Hey Frederic,

Long-time user of EWQL Pianos, which were among my first purchases past Logic Pro’s orchestra Jam Pack which had more options for pianos. I used the EW pianos for a number of years before buying the Ravenscroft 275. I’ve since then purchased a number of different piano libraries, but the 275 is still my go-to piano nearly 95% of the time. Unless I KNOW another piano will suit material better, it’s 275.

Here’s a comparison thread I posted a while back with every major piano library I own:






Piano Comparison Thread (MIDI Included)


So back in April there was a great thread demonstrating 20 different piano libraries using the same MIDI. It was a lot of fun, but there are a few of well-known drawbacks with doing this: 1. Libraries respond differently to MIDI, so the result tends to the less musical. 2. A single cue, even...




vi-control.net


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## FredericBernard (Mar 25, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Hey Frederic,
> 
> Long-time user of EWQL Pianos, which were among my first purchases past Logic Pro’s orchestra Jam Pack which had more options for pianos. I used the EW pianos for a number of years before buying the Ravenscroft 275. I’ve since then purchased a number of different piano libraries, but the 275 is still my go-to piano nearly 95% of the time. Unless I KNOW another piano will suit material better, it’s 275.
> 
> ...


Wow, this is all the info I would need - many thanks Duncan! 

Cheers!
-Frederic


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## Duncan Krummel (Mar 25, 2021)

FredericBernard said:


> Wow, this is all the info I would need - many thanks Duncan!
> 
> Cheers!
> -Frederic


Of course! Happy to help


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## Lazarus451 (May 18, 2021)

This is now 50% off on VSTBuzz. Maybe I need it even if I'm not a piano player and already own Komplete


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## sostenuto (May 18, 2021)

This 'buzz' promo just popped up at last hours of Audio Brewers - Pianoforte Promo at almost same cost. Stu Harrison's (Merriam Pianos) Ravenscroft 275 YT Video was impressive for my needs and forced a rethink. Jazz, pop, latin, light classical, light rock covers personal usage. This Ravenscroft promo is strong incentive, but truly miss some 'quality' user comparisons ... given such limited exposure to Pianoforte. Any help here before I commit ??


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 2, 2021)

Ravenscroft 275
normal price 199 USD
discounted price 139 USD

plus an additional 10% if you buy 2

is R275 a worthy VI?


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## Duncan Krummel (Aug 2, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Ravenscroft 275
> normal price 199 USD
> discounted price 139 USD
> 
> ...


You’ll get a few differing opinions overall, with some saying there’s a certain overly perfect sterility to it, and others praising the overall immaculate sampling. I fall into the latter camp, with the 275 being my go to piano for nearly everything for the past several years. The quality of sampling really is astounding, with a nice set of rich features. The only thing that I _occasionally_ find lacking is the microphone selection. It takes a little extra processing with reverbs and EQs to make the most of it where other pianos have more magic OTB.

For comparison, you can check out this thread I started a while back:






Piano Comparison Thread (MIDI Included)


So back in April there was a great thread demonstrating 20 different piano libraries using the same MIDI. It was a lot of fun, but there are a few of well-known drawbacks with doing this: 1. Libraries respond differently to MIDI, so the result tends to the less musical. 2. A single cue, even...




vi-control.net


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 2, 2021)

New fan of R and U


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