# Fantasy &Urban Myth



## José Herring (Oct 25, 2006)

Let me know what you think.

http://www.jherringmusic.com/user/Fantasy.mp3

http://www.jherringmusic.com/user/UrbanMyth.mp3


Urban Myth remix:

http://www.jherringmusic.com/user/UrbanMyth2.mp3


----------



## redleicester (Oct 25, 2006)

Morning chap,

Couple of thoughts - 

Fantasy - on the brass at around 20s, can you change the timbre on them at all? They sound a little static to me, perhaps some flaring and expression would help. Not sure which samples you're using, but do they allow for any adjustment to how overblown they are?

UrbanMyth - change in style at 29s is a bit abrupt - feels like the track was going in one direction then suddely shot off somewhere else (though that may be deliberate!). Snare/Tom roll at 44s suffers from the machine-gun effect - have you got any repeating samples? Strings at 56s sound like they're phasing ever so slightly, and thus end up a bit synthy, again could be deliberate, (or EWQL ). 

Other than that, nice big sound. Keep it up!


----------



## PaulR (Oct 25, 2006)

Yep - both pretty good.


----------



## david robinson (Nov 17, 2006)

hello jose, greetings from australia.

won't comment on the music, but would like to ask what you use to monitor in your studio. how far apart are your speakers and where do you sit?

to reason is that some of the percussion overrides the rest of the orchestra here.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 17, 2006)

david robinson @ Fri Nov 17 said:


> hello jose, greetings from australia.
> 
> won't comment on the music,



That's okay. Not many people have. But for some reason these two cues have gotten me more response from some more established TV and Film composers and film makers than any others I've done.



david robinson @ Fri Nov 17 said:


> but would like to ask what you use to monitor in your studio. how far apart are your speakers and where do you sit?
> 
> to reason is that some of the percussion overrides the rest of the orchestra here.



It's intentional. I'm experimenting with new sounds and styles for myself. Upfront percussion was part of it. In Urban Myth I really want the percussion to rip through in unusual ways. In the other piece I was going for a Fanfare to the Common Man type sound with the horns and percussion. Though I find that the deep percussion frequencies need to by eq'd more because when they come in instead of just being deep they also cancel out upper frequencies which is something I didn't want.

I sit about 2 feet away from my monitors with the monitors being about 2 feet apart. 

Do you think I should extend it out further?

Jose


----------



## david robinson (Nov 17, 2006)

oh yes jose, please move your monitors out but keep the triangulation.
here, i'm 7feet away and these two works don't have much stereo.
i like your music, that why i'm posting.
btw, my monitor details are.: tannoy 15 taDC's in lancaster boxes, powered by QSC dual mono blocks of 380watts/rms(8ohm) each.
i monitor at ~86db spl.
also, where do you set your pan law?


----------



## SvK (Nov 17, 2006)

Hey Jose...

Fantasy:I love the first quiet section...it's perfect really..........then you cop out and do the fanfare thing with the bigger-than life crescendo.....keep the harmonies the same and instead of going "brassy / loud" go "lusher/thicker".......

I feel the orchestration of the 2nd 1/2 KILLS the perfect feel of the first 1st half. Less is more......The first 1/2 is sooo good.

SvK

PS: David welcome......many, many talented musicians here...

SvK


----------



## SvK (Nov 17, 2006)

ain't no thang but a chicken wing 

SvK


----------



## SvK (Nov 17, 2006)

ain't no thang but a chicken wing 

SvK


----------



## david robinson (Nov 17, 2006)

jose, thank you for listening to me, there's nbothing wrong with your music, you've just got a little bit of "center channel buildup".

please post new versions of your work when remixed with your monitors wider apart.
best, david r.


----------



## rJames (Nov 17, 2006)

Sorry, Jose, for not posting. I listened early this morning and liked certain parts and found a few minor things that I could mention but they were minor and I didn't want to nit-pick.

My favorite patch for horns in EWQLSO is "F 6FH sus x-fade". It was left out of the XP patches so if you have XP, you have to get it out of your old patches. I like it because it is both velocity AND crossfade for the "brass". So, the brassiness is not always tied to the volume. You can get soaring horns without brass or with (and they get loud). Just the thing for the fantasy piece.

I liked them both.

I loved the percussion in UrbanMyth especially the blending part where you bring in the toms and it morphs bigger.

And one of the little things I heard was a "sucking" sound on the pad right after the first half ends. Just one little moment.

I really liked the sound of the big trap kit as well but I think there was a bit much verb (ofr my taste) and remember NEVER to rely on me for details like verb cause my ears ain't what they used to be (they've been ringing since I was 11)


----------



## José Herring (Nov 17, 2006)

David,

I'm like a sponge. I listen to everything and everybody. Everybody has a piece of the puzzle. I would have never in a million years figured out the idea of Center Channel Buildup. Thanks for pointing it out. Now I know why I run out of space in my mixes so early on in the process.

Hey Ron,

Thanks. Your comments are much appreciated.


----------



## synthetic (Nov 18, 2006)

I guess I also missed this one when it was posted. I like Urban Myth a lot. Some bits about the mix bothered me, like the drums at the end for some reason. (Too much compression makes the drums sound small IMO.) 

I agree about the brass in Fantasy, maybe you can back off on the short notes or switch to a shorter articulation if you have it. Great composition, I wanted it to keep going.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks for listening. I'm looking forward to getting UAD with it's LA2A compressors. Or perhaps there's a way to expand back out again the compressed sound. I was looking to get the sound of processed drums.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 19, 2006)

david robinson @ Fri Nov 17 said:


> jose, thank you for listening to me, there's nbothing wrong with your music, you've just got a little bit of "center channel buildup".
> 
> please post new versions of your work when remixed with your monitors wider apart.
> best, david r.



Hey David,

I don't know if you're still reading this thread if so. I've pulled the monitors out to I'd say about 4 feet. With a little work I could probably get a full 5 and that's about it. I hear what you're talking about a lot clearer. My only question is that for years I've been hearing about this phantom center in stereo mixes. I think that's what this center channel build up is. Maybe I've gotten it wrong. Do you or anybody really know what phantom center is suppose to mean? I was told it was this ghost like audio image in the center. But for me I'm only getting this mid-center mud.


Jose


----------



## synergy543 (Nov 19, 2006)

josejherring @ Sun Nov 19 said:


> My only question is that for years I've been hearing about this phantom center in stereo mixes. I think that's what this center channel build up is. Maybe I've gotten it wrong. Do you or anybody really know what phantom center is suppose to mean? I was told it was this ghost like audio image in the center. But for me I'm only getting this mid-center mud.


When you play the same mono sound into both speakers, you should hear the sound as coming from the center between the speakers. If its still muddy as you describe, its possible the phase could be reversed on one of your speakers so be sure to check that. If its still not distinctly in the center, then experiment with your speaker locations (check height, angle, sources of reflections, etc.) making sure they are always symmetrical. A 60 degree triangle between you and the speakers is ideal. 

Once you get it set up with a solid center image, you should get good stereo imaging from stereo sources. Isao Tomita used a little trick where he mixed 3 channels in stereo by using the phantom center channel. So for example, he'd have a center mono string, and then two slightly de-tuned stereo strings. He created a very lush sound this way. And in a sense, samplist do this with location panning by placing the instruments in "virtual" places across the stereo field.

Also, get to know your monitors by listening to some reference material that you like (and know isò˜w   J–ì˜w   J–í˜w   J–î˜w   J–ï˜w   J–ð˜w   J–ñ˜w   J–ò˜w   J–ó˜w   J–ô˜w   J–õ˜w   J–ö˜w   J–÷˜w   J–ø˜w   J–ù˜w   J–ú˜w   J–û˜w   J–ü˜w   J–ý˜w   J–þ˜w   J–ÿ˜w   J— ˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J—	˜w   J—
˜w   J—˜w   J—˜w   J— ˜w   J—˜w   J—


----------



## david robinson (Nov 19, 2006)

jose, a SPL meter will help.

spread your speakers out to 4'.

position the meter at the triangulation point.

set to read 86db spl Cweighted slow. (mono from DAW).

play pink noise thru first, and use your monitor level knob to locate ~86db.

replace the noise with commercial reference cds etc and check /compare before changing anything.

write notes.


----------



## synthetic (Nov 19, 2006)

Jose, a lot of guys send the drums to a buss and compress that, then send the (uncompressed) drums to another buss and send that to the stereo out. That way you get punchyness and clarity, provided you compensate for processing delay. 

Do you get Future Music magazine? It comes with a CD every month full of loops and hits. In a few months you'll have a decent collection of current stuff.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 20, 2006)

synthetic @ Sun Nov 19 said:


> Jose, a lot of guys send the drums to a buss and compress that, then send the (uncompressed) drums to another buss and send that to the stereo out. That way you get punchyness and clarity, provided you compensate for processing delay.
> 
> Do you get Future Music magazine? It comes with a CD every month full of loops and hits. In a few months you'll have a decent collection of current stuff.



Thanks for the tip. I'll also look into the mag. Perhaps VI Mag should do the same :wink: 

David and Synth(jeff),

I started experimenting with the phantom center. Wow what a difference. Did I have that confused. I sent a pink noise mono signal produced by a soft synth. At first the signals where clearly L,R. I was like....man...there is no center. So I angeled the speakers and I started to get a slight center. Off chance I decided to check the wiring to see if something had gotten crossed and sure enough left speaker was crossed wired! ( I assume that means out of phase. Not sure about that. Maybe it makes no difference at all). But for some reason when I switched the cabling and replaced the speaker I hit the pink noise again and Bam!!! Noise hit me straight in the forehead right from the center! (so exciting)

So then I got a couple of scores and listened through and boy the stereo imaging is really pronounced now. I could hear the full width of the orchestra. Pretty cool.

Next I'll get that meter and experiment with that. 

The only thing I noticed is that the phantom center does float around a bit. I guess I'd have to treat my room or place the studio in another room. But for now things are much better. I'm working on the remixes now. Going out of town tomorrow but when I get back I'll post the results.

Thanks.

Jose


----------



## synergy543 (Nov 21, 2006)

Great Jose! I'm glad you found the problem. Its a bit like finding middle C. Without it, you'd be completely lost. Amazing all the great stuff you've been doing with reversed speakers though! Funny but only now we can laugh together.

Cheers,

Greg

btw, Radio Shack carries a nice sound meter but get the analog version with the meter. It used to be $25 but I'm sure has gone up.


----------



## José Herring (Nov 21, 2006)

Oh my apologies Greg I meant to included you also in my thanks. I some how in my mind this late at night had lumped you and Sythetic together as one person.

So Thank you too. It does make a big difference.

Jose


----------



## synergy543 (Nov 21, 2006)

Synthetic and me as one person? My synergistic Saimese twin? 

Naw, I got rid of my Tascam's long ago. 

Cheers,

Greg


----------



## david robinson (Nov 21, 2006)

jose, after forty some years doing this, you tend to guessimate more accurately.
very interested to hear an A/B on the original cues.

buy yourself an SPL meter at radio shack.

mono your pink noise and switch the meter to 80-90db spl, c weighted and slow.

slowly bring up the pink noise until the meter reads 86db. 

to do this properly attach the meter to a mic stand and triangulate it. (your own body will color the reading if you hold it.)

wacko wiring with speakers will lead to your type of problems every time.

if your speakers are small, which i suspect they are, you might not hear the out of phase disconboobulation as much.
also, if your speaker drivers have worn unevenly, you might not notice.

after you've done this procedure, check out your favourite sound track/pop songs, instead of the pink noise. this'll be a real ear opener for you.

what you'll be hearing is ~ what your system is capable of.

next your DAW.

this is just as important.
most DAWs output 0VU @ ~ -18dbfs. (same for DAT machines, etc).
so, to get a friendly result, don't push the mix up too far.
most analog circuitry allows for at least ~ +14db above 0VU. this is for an average transient. percussion will most definitely use all this up. whereas a string pad would not, all things being equal.

hence, your peak reading on your DAWs output bus, without plugins, should be ~ -6 to -4dbfs.
an orchestral climax or tutu - tutti - *cough* should read this, but a ppp cor anglais solo part could be as low as -30dbfs of you DAWs master bus.

i've heard some great stuff on this site, most of which has no phase or center problems. but quite few have dynamics problems. it's quiet easy to achieve the dynamics used in a A list film if you know how to gain stage properly... and i don't just mean analog gain staging for an optimum mix, but musical gain staging: predictable levels which serve as guides for the different cues found in a given film.
(don't worry, i don't have a book, tape, dvd, pizza to sell you.)


----------



## José Herring (Nov 21, 2006)

If you did have a book I'd be buying it about now!

I'm out of town now but I'm PM this post to myself and will dl it and follow the advice given.

Thank you.

Jose


----------



## synergy543 (Nov 21, 2006)

Darn, I kind of wanted the pizza....

No, seriously what are you suggesting? How does raising the gain to 86dB affect his sound? Other than the fact that it is a pretty optimal general purpose monitoring level.

Fletcher-Munson curves also affect the sound at different volume levels so its a good idea to listen at different levels when you monitor and also consider the volume at which the piece will be listened at.


----------



## david robinson (Nov 22, 2006)

g'day, this is for set up only.
what the user then does to customize this is up to them.

86db spl is ~ where a good balance of frequencies is obtained.
jose seems to only have a very small monitor set up.
he might even have trouble getting a clean signal at 86db.


----------



## synergy543 (Nov 22, 2006)

I see. Agreed that's a nice monitoring level for really listening to the sound carefully but maybe a bit loud for all the time (for me).

Usually I use an SPL meter for surround and sub level adjusts. After that, I "ear-ball" levels and adjust for comfort.


----------



## david robinson (Nov 22, 2006)

agreed, it can be a loud level.

i sort of trained my body to respond at this level, and after a few years, can now "sense" if levels are creeping up.

while i'm putting a song together, the levels will be all over the shop, and generally softer.
but, at mix down, everything gets set to the 86db calibration.

also, my tannoys have the treble energy controls backed off by 1.5db. this stops some of the ear fatigue, plus, it forces me to boost the top end a bit at mixdown. works well.

i mix at ~ 6-7ft back from the tannoys, and this gives a great impression of the sound stage. mixing closer gives me the feeling that i've stuck my head into the musos domain of the sound stage, so i don't do that, nor do i use headphones.


----------



## Lex (Nov 28, 2006)

Fantasy..woah woah woah...jingle allmighty!


UrbanMyth.....me likes a lot...altough I admit personaly I dont get the idea behind drums without a strong bass line in the last part...

Alex


----------



## José Herring (Dec 4, 2006)

david robinson @ Tue Nov 21 said:


> jose, after forty some years doing this, you tend to guessimate more accurately.
> very interested to hear an A/B on the original cues.
> 
> buy yourself an SPL meter at radio shack.
> ...



Okay.

So I bought the meter and ran the test. By instinct and by being at several sound stages over the years I had pegged the level of the monitors. During final mix even without meter I would frequently monitor at the level that the meter now tells me is 86db. Very interesting study.

My problems lie as far as levels are concerned in the DAW. I frequently will mix as hot as possible making me peaks at the tippy top ~+3db just before clipping occurs.

I see that my pink noise signal with all faders set to 0db reads at ~-17.3 on my daws meter. It's close enough to the -18db you mentioned.

So from this I can see that my levels are too extreme when mixing. Often dropping below -30db and climaxing at +3db or just before distortion. I think this came from trying to recreate the levels that I hear in live concert hall performances which I can now see are too extreme for recording.

Have I done everything as correctly as possible? My system is tiny but mighty comprising of some good choices made over the years. I have no distortion and the signal is clean at 86db. But it's probably at the upper end of my monitors for sure.

Last question: Should my trasients and tutti peaks stay at the levels you mentioned even once mastered (~-4db), or should I master hotter than what I mix at?

Thank you for your help. I'll post the updated results soon.

best,

José


----------



## José Herring (Dec 4, 2006)

If anybody is still interested I've done the first remix. It's posted here and in the first post of this topic:

http://www.jherringmusic.com/user/UrbanMyth2.mp3

Much has been learned but also much has still yet to be learned. I'm now mixing in foreign territory. I like it. There's more room but also now that I have a phantom center it's like working with a third speaker. Now I'm wondering if I should move my computer monitor because the monitor is right in the middle of the phantom center. :???: 

Jose


----------



## synergy543 (Dec 4, 2006)

Hi Jose, 

Nice mix and great piece; you're the one who should be teaching me! The new mix is more balanced overall. Although I liked the extreme lows around 50s in the original mix better. Seemed more dramatic; and a good place to bring the lows out. 

Its a joke right? Having your monitor in the middle of the phantom center shouldn't matter if there's nothing the monitor is actually blocking (no actual soundwaves being harmed - the phantom is in your head). Nevertheless, to minimize reflections from desktop clutter (four monitors), I have my speakers about 50 inches up on risers and angled down toward my listening position. The tweeter (which is most directional) is up about 60 inches so there's a very clear path from the speakers to my ears with little nothing nearby to interfere. My ceiling is quite high though so if you have a low ceiling be careful of reflections bouncing from the ceiling if you decide to raise your speakers up. If this is the case, you might experiement with some acoustic foam to absorb reflections. Laser pointers and mirrors are nice tools to check where reflections bounce around your room.

As for the sound level meter, I only find that useful for calibrating the level of the sub relative to the monitors and for surround level setups. I think you'll find it very useful for those situations.

Man, there's a beautiful sunset outside! Majestic purple and ethereal pink.


----------



## José Herring (Dec 4, 2006)

Thanks Syn!

This whole thing has taught me that I'm in desperate need of a decent subwoofer. I'm guessing as to what's going on in the low end. Not ideal. It never ends does it?

Jose


----------



## synergy543 (Dec 4, 2006)

I don't find the sub to be as critical as the mains (although others might disagree). Its pretty much mud down there below 80Hz. As long as you can get something that dampens reasonably fast you could probably get away with adding a generic home theater sub. And balance the levels with your meter to match the mains.


----------



## david robinson (Dec 5, 2006)

your monitor inbetween your speakers should hurt.
but you'll get a better mix on your bass end with standard, but larger speakers rather than a sub woofer.
10" bass drivers are a good starting point.

for anything i do that's like film or classical, i carefully plot the gain structure of the piece and roughly relate the db's to musical dynamics.
every system will be a different set up doing this, so my figures might not work on yours, jose.

with samples, i will generally not compress them any further, if i render to HDD.
although if a soft flt is getting lost on certain notes i'll try one there to even things out.
i also switch a compressor in to hi -lite a certain phase or passage, switching it off after.

i find if the work is arranged properly then mixing is easier. i spend a great deal of time on the MIDI expression parts.
my mixdowns are fairly simple with little or no automation.
my peak level for film/classical is under -6dbfs. some are as low as -12db on the peaks.
i've found by standardizing the gain/dynamics, i can more easily do more complex works in sections (individual sessions). and then assemble them later, using crossfades.


----------



## david robinson (Dec 5, 2006)

just listen to mix two.
image is much better.
follow someone elses suggestion here and add more 50cycles or so.
you could spread you hi end perc out a bit more to the right.
try dirtying up the drum kit(beat) as well as compressing it.
jose, you should get the eliosound air eq demo, it has very, very, nice hi and lo pass filters that could benifit your mixes.


----------



## José Herring (Dec 5, 2006)

david robinson @ Tue Dec 05 said:


> for anything i do that's like film or classical, i carefully plot the gain structure of the piece and roughly relate the db's to musical dynamics.
> every system will be a different set up doing this, so my figures might not work on yours, jose.
> 
> my mixdowns are fairly simple with little or no automation.
> ...



Just to clarify further. You're talking just about mixing and mixdown here right? I've listened to a bunch of commercial available CDs from John Debney and John Williams and it seems that the CDs do top out just under -1db constantly during loud tutti passages. So I'm guessing that this is the result of normalizing the audio tracks for CD production. Are you against doing that too? Or is bringing up the levels for CD acceptable. To be quite honest the CDs sound really loud at -86db monitoring. Practically killed my 6 inch drivers


----------



## david robinson (Dec 6, 2006)

jose, commercial cds will be "louder" - just under 0dbfs.

the measures i've given are for your mixes before mastering.

ME's like some headroom and no comp/lim.

they'll add that final touch your referring to. (louder-fuller).

if i slapped a comp/lim on my monitor mixes here, yes, they prolly blow me out of the room on tutti peaks.

so i don't do it, except if i want to impress a client.


----------

