# Flawless piano vst?



## Voider (Sep 16, 2017)

Hey guys  I'm looking for a piano VST. What is more important to me before the sound is, that it works perfectly fine. I found a lot pianos that I did like, but most of my researches ended up with that they were not recorded proper on some notes, or that there are strange velocity issues and stuff like that - there was always something.

The last one I really liked was Mercury from wavesfactory but again, I've read that it suffers from technical issues.

Do you know a piano library you have used really often and listened to carefully, that is technically flawless, or does such a library not even exist yet?


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## thereus (Sep 16, 2017)

Pianoteq


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## d.healey (Sep 16, 2017)

pianoteq


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## Jeast (Sep 16, 2017)

+1


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## Quasar (Sep 16, 2017)

Technically, yes, Pianoteq. Sonically is a whole other subjective discussion...


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## EvilDragon (Sep 16, 2017)

Yep, Pianoteq. Sonically, too.


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## PerryD (Sep 16, 2017)

Pianoteq for me as well.


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## sostenuto (Sep 16, 2017)

Heh heh .... Personal Grotrian Concert 225 changed notably with home studio humidity fluctuations.  
Acoustic instruments also differ in every room, regulated specifically for different players, sound different to each pair of ears, et al ..... 
While not a Pianoteq owner (yet), would expect OP needs may point there (taking him/her precisely as Post states).

New Pianoteq 6 'Grotrian' is tugging hard ..... but then my aging ears are not hearing audio demos anywhere near the same as many others. :( 

Current IvoryII Italian Grand is reasonably 'adjustable', but nuttin's _PERFECT_ .... is it ??


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## VinRice (Sep 16, 2017)

As others have said, Pianoteq is an amazing technical achievement, personally I just don't like the sound - Steinway D & B anyway. I prefer the 'plink' attack higher up rather than in the midrange. It is how a lot of Steinways seem to sound however!


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 16, 2017)

yes, but do you? Just joking Vin, I prefer the plonk.


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## HiEnergy (Sep 16, 2017)

What about TruePianos?


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## thereus (Sep 16, 2017)

Ravenscroft 275 works well.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 16, 2017)

HiEnergy said:


> What about TruePianos?



It never did anything for me. Plus it wasn't updated in a long, long time now (5 years).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2017)

What about an AU?


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## Lotias (Sep 16, 2017)

All I can think of that'll ever be really _perfect_ is Pianoteq. You can even have the piano tuned perfectly, as if it were right out of the workshop.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 16, 2017)

Yes, pianoteq is the most playable (for a pianist) and incredibly tweakable. I am also a Ravenscroft fan, although it's not *perfect*


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## Quasar (Sep 16, 2017)

HiEnergy said:


> What about TruePianos?



I had high hopes for them, tried the demo, and thought Atlantis in particular was pretty good. But (as already mentioned) they seem to have dropped out from further development. A version 2 was supposed to be released "imminently" IIRC several years ago, and it never happened.


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## chapbot (Sep 16, 2017)

I've been hearing all about Pianoteq lately - tried it years ago and... meh. So I just downloaded the latest demo. Meh - I would put it in the same league as TruePianos. I like TruePianos much better and still use it as a quick program to open when I need to sketch (opens instantly with no loading.) Here's a short comparison between Pianoteq, Ravenscroft and American Grand (I use Raven and American.) By itself I like American Grand best, but I find Ravenscroft's brightness cuts through my pop productions much better. You'll hear the clarity, realism and depth of the Raven and American compared to Pianoteq. This demo is straight out of the "box" with no effects:

https://clyp.it/qjtbndtn

Plus I think Pianoteq is WAY overpriced. If I bought it I'd want the Standard version at $319 (although the basic version at $129 is on par with TruePiano's $120.

https://www.vilabsaudio.com/Ravenscroft-By-VI-Labs
$199.99

https://www.vilabsaudio.com/true-keys-american-grand
$149

3 pianos including American:
https://www.vilabsaudio.com/truekeyspianos
$349


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## Lotias (Sep 16, 2017)

chapbot said:


> I've been hearing all about Pianoteq lately - tried it years ago and... meh. So I just downloaded the latest demo. Meh - I would put it in the same league as TruePianos.


I've never actually heard anyone say that, especially about the latest version of Pianoteq. And listening to demos I have to disagree too.

In your comparison - what I hear is that the other two are hitting higher dynamics. Have you tried adjusting the velocity response curve in Pianoteq, as well as one of the brighter pianos (YC5, K2)? And I dislike some resonances I'm hearing in the Ravenscroft.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 16, 2017)

You certainly can't just paste in the same MIDI data for all three pianos and expect to get a worthwhile comparison. You have to play the notes in and respond in real time to the sound, curve, etc. for each one. And Pianoteq is very tweakable on every parameter.

I've noticed that every several months we get this discussion about how Pianoteq either is the greatest piano or it sucks. The fact is that it's getting better and better sounding with every iteration, but we have great sampled pianos now too. Win-win


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## thereus (Sep 16, 2017)

jonnybutter said:


> You certainly can't just paste in the same MIDI data for all three pianos and expect to get a worthwhile comparison. You have to play the notes in and respond in real time to the sound, curve, etc. for each one. And Pianoteq is very tweakable on every parameter.
> 
> I've noticed that every several months we get this discussion about how Pianoteq either is the greatest piano or it sucks. The fact is that it's getting better and better sounding with every iteration, but we have great sampled pianos now too. Win-win



When I think about the rustbuckets that I learned on...


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## Rob (Sep 16, 2017)

The moment the hammers impact the strings is the crucial part of the sound of a piano to me... Pianoteq still has a way to go to get that right imo. One of my favorite pianos, the humble sonivox 88, does that first portion of the sound very well, I love playing it... here's a little impro I did last year that I think shows what I mean

www.robertosoggetti.com/Sx88-fragileImpro.mp3


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## jmvideo (Sep 16, 2017)

I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.


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## Rob (Sep 16, 2017)

I was enthusiastic initially about pteq, and bought the pro version in order to be able to tune it note by note, and something came out of my work, but never was I able to get that very first, few milliseconds sound right...


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## Mike Fox (Sep 16, 2017)

How do EW Pianos hold up? I remember those being quite balanced.


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## thereus (Sep 16, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.



I find it to be closer than most sample libraries. You can never fully escape the layering errors until you have an awful lot of layers. Many sampled instrument makers seem to think that 8 layers will do. It won't.


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## chapbot (Sep 16, 2017)

Lotias said:


> I've never actually heard anyone say that, especially about the latest version of Pianoteq.


You just did


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## Quasar (Sep 16, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.


I'm a non guitar player who thinks that the better v-guitars play and sound more than good enough, and in fact are better than real guitars because you can play them on a keyboard LOL.

But I am a piano player and have never played a v-piano that offers an experience even remotely akin to playing a real piano. I like faux pianos, but they're simply different. Even on a VPC1 (which I've tried but do not have) it's different. One thing is never another thing.

I do agree with thereus' comment that with physical modeling you seem to be able to bypass the velocity layers thing, so that's the "technical" part of it being "better", more naturally responsive to subtle differences in touch. But it's still different.


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## tack (Sep 16, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.


I daresay it's the piano players that are exactly the group that are going to be _most_ enamored with Pianoteq because it _feels_ much closer to an acoustic piano. It's not the sound that wins us over (if you'll permit me the hubris necessary to consider myself a piano player) but how it performs. Indeed, when I listen back on something I play with Pianoteq I rapidly begin to hear all the qualities I dislike about it sonically. But sitting in front of the piano -- especially with the modestly convincing (albeit imperfect) action of my Kawai CA67 -- almost all of those criticisms evaporate, astonishingly.


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## chapbot (Sep 16, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.


I think that's what's going on here - with such enthusiastic recommendations on Pianoteq I hoped I'd be downloading the holy grail as I'm always searching for the most realistic piano. As a classically trained pianist who's had piano lessons since kindergarten and played Bach, Liszt and Debussy for my senior piano recital, I'll put my two cents in as "Meh."


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## chapbot (Sep 16, 2017)

tack said:


> I daresay it's the piano players that are exactly the group that are going to be _most_ enamored with Pianoteq because it _feels_ much closer to an acoustic piano. It's not the sound that wins us over (if you'll permit me the hubris necessary to consider myself a piano player) but how it performs. Indeed, when I listen back on something I play with Pianoteq I rapidly begin to hear all the qualities I dislike about it sonically. But sitting in front of the piano -- especially with the modestly convincing (albeit imperfect) action of my Kawai CA67 -- almost all of those criticisms evaporate, astonishingly.


The Pianoteq does play great, however I'm not happy until I have a vst piano that both plays _and_ sounds great. I've purchased many a piano, unfortunately for my wallet, that sounds great on demos but after downloading it feels wonky on my keyboard controller. That's why I love Raven and American - they both play and sound great for me.


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## NYC Chaz (Sep 16, 2017)

Chocolate Audio does not get enough love in my opinion.Their model D is one of my favorites.


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## tack (Sep 16, 2017)

chapbot said:


> however I'm not happy until I have a vst piano that both plays _and_ sounds great


For sure. All we can do right now is choose which type of compromise we're willing to make.

But I have a feeling Pianoteq is going to get there before samples do. Sampling is pretty mature as a technology and there really hasn't been any major innovation in sample-based piano VSTIs in, what, a decade? I think it'll take another 10 years before Pianoteq unambiguously pulls itself out of the uncanny valley, but as it is right now, I can actually play something moderately complicated without cringing due to some dodgy release noise or completely inappropriate pedal behavior, etc.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 16, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.



Actually, most people think that in fact that it's the sound that's the problem (if any) with Pianoteq. You don't have to be a guitar player or piano player to recognize the true _sound _of either one. I am a piano player and I know what a real guitar sounds like vs a VI. I think you mean playability, which is where the Pianoteq shines.


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## Lotias (Sep 16, 2017)

chapbot said:


> You just did


No, I didn't?


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## chapbot (Sep 16, 2017)

Lotias said:


> No, I didn't?


you did - ME


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## Lotias (Sep 16, 2017)

chapbot said:


> you did - ME


Oh, I can be slow on jokes sometimes.


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## Fleer (Sep 16, 2017)

Playability and sound tweakability: Pianoteq Grotrian and Blüthner.
Sound perception and sound design: Bechstein Digital.
But that Mercury from Wavesfactory is sweet as pie, don't underestimate her.


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## SchnookyPants (Sep 16, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> yes, but do you? Just joking Vin, I prefer the plonk.



Sir, Mike - 'zat ewe?


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 16, 2017)

SchnookyPants said:


> Sir, Mike - 'zat ewe?


tis me (I think, no wait a minute I am me)...who are you?


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## thereus (Sep 16, 2017)

Fleer said:


> Playability and sound tweakability: Pianoteq Grotrian and Blüthner.
> Sound perception and sound design: Bechstein Digital.
> But that Mercury from Wavesfactory is sweet as pie, don't underestimate her.



Mercury has only 8 layers and has a hq mode to merge them artistically that has such high cpu requirements that it is unplayable.


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## DS_Joost (Sep 17, 2017)

AcousticSamples Fazioli F278 Concert Grand, as found in Machfive 3 and the UVI Grand Piano collection is the one for me. Utterly beautiful sound. The highs and lows are hard to beat. It might not be very well known, but that doesn't make it a lesser piano.

It is the only piano that I can 'feel' whilst playing it, something sorely missing from most virtual pianos.


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## Jeast (Sep 17, 2017)

This shows that in the end its all about taste. I'm a light music trained pianist since age 6 as well and I switched from my trusty TruePianos to Pianoteq last week. I will never look back!



chapbot said:


> I think that's what's going on here - with such enthusiastic recommendations on Pianoteq I hoped I'd be downloading the holy grail as I'm always searching for the most realistic piano. As a classically trained pianist who's had piano lessons since kindergarten and played Bach, Liszt and Debussy for my senior piano recital, I'll put my two cents in as "Meh."


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## Geoff Grace (Sep 17, 2017)

How about a little love for the Production Grand? The video below offered a sneak peek at version 1, and demonstrated the elements you can choose from and mix together. Version 2 is out now.



Best,

Geoff


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## Arbee (Sep 17, 2017)

There seems to have been a flurry of piano threads lately that are perhaps designed to stimulate Pianoteq-love. Sorry, "meh" from me too. I look forward to when it gets there, but it's not there yet to my ears.


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## Iskra (Sep 17, 2017)

Ravenscroft is fine for me sonically and from a playability POV, I haven't tried the latest pianoteq but the previous incarnations was 'meh' to me. 
Anyway, I don't think there exists the perfect piano, not even in the real piano world. There are no two acoustic pianos alike, and maybe one out of twenty has the perfect resonance, mechanics, balanced keybed, etc, for the specific player playing it. Greatest piano for one player is a normal one for other, even in real pianos.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 17, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players?



This one here is. And I would say whoever says "meh" to Pianoteq didn't REALLY get to know what it can do.


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## thereus (Sep 17, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.


yes


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## CGR (Sep 17, 2017)

DS_Joost said:


> AcousticSamples Fazioli F278 Concert Grand, as found in Machfive 3 and the UVI Grand Piano collection is the one for me. Utterly beautiful sound. The highs and lows are hard to beat. It might not be very well known, but that doesn't make it a lesser piano.
> 
> It is the only piano that I can 'feel' whilst playing it, something sorely missing from most virtual pianos.


To keep my ears 'honest', I continually copy test recordings of my sampled/virtual pianos to a USB stick, and listen in the house on our home hi-fi system (via a Yamaha CD deck with a built-in USB port) and in the car to get an instant impression of suitability to different styles of music, and how convincing they sound away from the keyboard. The other day I was listening to a collection of various sampled piano recordings I've made (mostly solo piano) and one in particular really stopped me in my tracks and made me check what it was: the UVI Fazioli F278 concert grand. This really 'flies under the radar' in the world of sampled pianos, and it is very true to the real Fazioli grand piano I played on a regular basis a few years ago. I own over 60 sampled/virtual pianos, so for something to stand out amongst them is an achievement.


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## DS_Joost (Sep 17, 2017)

CGR said:


> To keep my ears 'honest', I continually copy test recordings of my sampled/virtual pianos to a USB stick, and listen in the house on our home hi-fi system (via a Yamaha CD deck with a built-in USB port) and in the car to get an instant impression of suitability to different styles of music, and how convincing they sound away from the keyboard. The other day I was listening to a collection of various sampled piano recordings I've made (mostly solo piano) and one in particular really stopped me in my tracks and made me check what it was: the UVI Fazioli F278 concert grand. This really 'flies under the radar' in the world of sampled pianos, and it is very true to the real Fazioli grand piano I played on a regular basis a few years ago. I own over 60 sampled/virtual pianos, so for something to stand out amongst them is an achievement.



The 'feels' comment I made earlier is a comment about how true it is to the original. I 'feel' the piano, which means that, when I play it, I no longer play a sampled piano. The tone reverberates through my keyboard in a way no other sampled piano has ever done. I too have lots of pianos, and am looking at Keyscape, which certainly intrigues me. Maybe it's even better, I don't know. All I know is that Spectrasonics are masters at sampling.

But yes, it is a shame this piano is so little known. It's not even expensive: 150 euros will net you the complete collection with five pianos, of which I still think this is the standout!


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## novaburst (Sep 17, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players



Yes but when you think about it this statement does not make a lot of sense, to say you can only tell if a piano or guitar is real only by knowing how to play it, is untrue,

Many understand the dynamics, tones, resonance, over tones, of a piano and perhaps have not even touched a note.

Many go to concerts where only a certain type of piano will do, when purchasing classical or orchestral music CD they also search for certain types of pianos that are being used and that will influence them to purchase the CD or not.

Some times the listener has better hearing than the player,

The player of the instrument wants to get better, the listener is already enjoying the greatest players.


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## SchnookyPants (Sep 17, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> tis me (I think, no wait a minute I am me)...who are you?



I _thought_ I was... 

Boot.


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 17, 2017)

hah.....both having affairs with other forums.....schnooky Pants????LOL (sorry OP)


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## novaburst (Sep 17, 2017)

a little insight onto how a piano works, I wonder if every developer follows this rule, or maybe you can try it on your library piano


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## Fleer (Sep 17, 2017)

Geoff Grace said:


> How about a little love for the Production Grand? The video below offered a sneak peek at version 1, and demonstrated the elements you can choose from and mix together. Version 2 is out now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good point, Geoff, wonderful C7 grand.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 17, 2017)

Lotias said:


> I dislike some resonances I'm hearing in the Ravenscroft.



Me too. I just got it last week and am getting into it. Ravenscroft is quite an achievement, but it does sound harsh at some ranges, particularly around 650hz, at least to my ear. The low mid range in general is nasal and harsh at times.

As per this discussion, so much also depends on how you play, what keyboard you use, and how you monitor. I am getting older, so my hands aren't what they used to be - I have to warm up more than I used to. Sometimes I will play and the sound is bad because of my fingers! Or if I use an inferior keyboard. Like human hearing itself, piano tech is a moving target.

I totally understand 'feeling' a piano. For me it's the feeling of the hammer hitting the string (or hammer hitting a tine in the case of a Rhodes). You can also, on some pianos, feel the grip of the felt when it dampens the strings as you release a note. I don't know if that is replicable, but the pianoteq is the closest I've played to simulating that - it's just so fast and has no sample layers.


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## sostenuto (Sep 17, 2017)

VSTi pianos are incredible .... sound same today yesterday, last week, next month ! 
Hard to criticize any of them for cost, after paying more for distinguished technician to regulate acoustic concert grand every time humidity changed notably _ or every few months, which ever came first. 

No criticism intended, but when specific instruments are mentioned .... it causes recall of decades of auditioning /playing many grands in many venues. Every 'D' ever played, felt different, sounded different ... and also changed over time, and in every venue.

Now; oldheimers' ears are in play ... even though I pretend to ignore. 

Still luv current IvoryII Italian Grand, yet many others are enjoyed for specific genres or moods ..... even new Pianoteq6 Demo.


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## Vanni (Sep 17, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players? Reminds of when non-guitar players think guitar VIs sound like real guitars. You can strike one note and think "yep, that sounds like a guitar". But good luck trying to make it sound realistic beyond that.



I'm a mediocre player but studied in conservatory where everyday we were playing on Steinways' .

My answer is: Pianoteq. 
And the fundamental reason to me is specifically what you say:its not really about how a single note sound by itself, its about how everything plays and sounds together in the infinite possible combinations of a piano session. It just feels like a piano vs feeling like a sampled library.


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## ohernie (Sep 17, 2017)

I just want to point out that there is a difference between the experience of playing a piano and the sound of a piano. The live "soundboard in your face" experience will always differ from the VI experience where the sound is delivered via speakers or headphones. On several occasions I have been at jams where someone else played my piano. The sound of the piano invariably was better when someone else was playing my keyboard, even if I was the better musician.


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## thereus (Sep 17, 2017)

I wonder if some have a psychological barrier to accepting the possibility that modelling might create a good sound. Sampling is no less artificial if you think about it.


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## Vanni (Sep 17, 2017)

thereus said:


> I wonder if some have a psychological barrier to accepting the possibility that modelling might create a good sound. Sampling is no less artificial if you think about it.



Talking about piano I believe it might be the case, at least a little bit.
The reason could be that when you think at a piano, you can have the impression that you could theoretically sample an "infinite" number of samples at different volumes and you would then think to have sampled basically every possible sound that instrument can make. You'll never think this way I.e. with a vilolin.
So one could think that the "best" vst will then be the one that has the biggest number of samples of the best possible recording quality.
And that would actually be the case if we were to choose the best piano vst at playing one note: with an infinite number of samples if we play "one note" we would actually hear a perfect recording of the piano playing "that" specific note and velocity, making it impossible to distinguish it from an actual recording of that very instrument playing that very note, which would actually exactly be.

But this changes after the second note is played, and I believe it's this that differentiates Pianoteq.

I think physical modelling is THEORETICALLY superior just as Artificial Intelligence is THEORETICALLY superior vs. i.e. a bot being programmed with a bazillion of possible answers to a bazillion of possible questions.

EDIT:
I naturally don't mean to question anyone's proficiency, it's just IMHO.


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## sostenuto (Sep 17, 2017)

Resonances are major when playing acoustic grand, right ? Many choices depending on who/where is listening ?
Topic truly has massive dimensions ....
Takes far beyond my talents to judge modelling vs sampling and only thing left is what comes to my ears. 
Have not yet warmed 'fully' to Pianoteq (or AAS for that matter) but they both provide great options.

Lack of Demos for many respected Piano VSTi is a major issue ! Must be able to use personal room, sound system, ears _ or what's the point ?

Pianoteq 6 Grotrian Demo has now delayed further purchases until better sorted.


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## Michael Antrum (Sep 17, 2017)

I think Pianoteq 6 has improved upon the previous version dramatically. However, it's still not quite right to my ear. There's something about it that just misses for me, and I'll be sticking with my Ivory II American Concert D pushed through QL Spaces for the foreseeable future.

However, they must be congratulated for a big improvement on the previous version, and a very reasonable upgrade cost. I look forward to seeing them continue development even further. Definitely worth supporting this exciting developer.


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 17, 2017)

Trust me when I say - I have an embarrassingly high number of Piano VI's.  The go to continues to be Ravenscroft. For my purposes the best scoring piano. I want to replace it - I do (need more options for different projects) but nothing gets to me - as emotionally - as this VI.


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## tack (Sep 17, 2017)

For those of us here who are making recommendations based on sonic characteristics, recall how the OP phrased the original question:



> What is more important to me before the sound is, that it works perfectly fine.



I think that detail is important otherwise this is Yet Another What's Your Favorite Piano thread.

To me, apart from reliability and consistency, this also means sane behavior as congruent as possible to a real acoustic piano. For example, many sample-based pianos just pedal all wrong. Minimally it needs to support repedalling -- and I'm still amazed how many modern piano libraries don't even get that right.


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 17, 2017)

Also most important to me that is FUNCTION as I expect and want it to...then sound. I stand by Ravenscroft.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 17, 2017)

tack said:


> and I'm still amazed how many modern piano libraries don't even get that right.



It's because it's really exceptionally hard to do it with samples...


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## thereus (Sep 17, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It's because it's really exceptionally hard to do it with samples...


What makes it so complicated, ED?


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## sostenuto (Sep 17, 2017)

thereus said:


> What makes it so complicated, ED?



and ... could they do a Hybrid for specific functions such as pedalling ??


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## tack (Sep 17, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It's because it's really exceptionally hard to do it with samples...


I think a simple implementation would still be reasonably effective, it'd just use a few voices per note. Consider a library with separate pedal-up and pedal-down samples. If I strike a note with the pedal down, then play both pedal-up and pedal-down samples, with the pedal-up sample muted. If I release the sustain pedal while keeping the note held, crossfade to the pedal-up sample, and vice versa if I repress the sustain pedal. If I release the note before the pedal and then pedal up, then fade the pedal-down sample to zero volume but speed up processing of the now-muted sample by some amount (maybe 10x faster? whatever tracks the normal decay without pedal) and begin playing release sample(s). If I repedal before the accelerated pedal-down sample runs out, then resume playback of the pedal-down sample at normal speed and crossfade to it. This should simulate catching the note.

Wouldn't something like that work?

Adding half-pedal samples to the mix would involve another voice for the note, with a similar strategy for switching between full- and half-pedal.


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## Arviwan (Sep 17, 2017)

I'm not a piano player, but friends of mine who are really enjoyed Acoustic Samples C7 when trying out my V.I.s


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## chapbot (Sep 17, 2017)

DS_Joost said:


> AcousticSamples Fazioli F278 Concert Grand, as found in Machfive 3 and the UVI Grand Piano collection is the one for me. Utterly beautiful sound. The highs and lows are hard to beat. It might not be very well known, but that doesn't make it a lesser piano.
> 
> It is the only piano that I can 'feel' whilst playing it, something sorely missing from most virtual pianos.


Wow the Model D in that collection sounds excellent as well, and it can be purchased separately for only $79. I might pull the trigger and get the collection - I'm just so skittish about spending money for the umpteenth time only to download the product and find it's wonky lol. Here's the link for anyone else interested:

https://www.uvi.net/grand-piano-collection.html


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## CGR (Sep 17, 2017)

chapbot said:


> Wow the Model D in that collection sounds excellent as well, and it can be purchased separately for only $79. I might pull the trigger and get the collection - I'm just so skittish about spending money for the umpteenth time only to download the product and find it's wonky lol. Here's the link for anyone else interested:
> 
> https://www.uvi.net/grand-piano-collection.html


I initially purchased the Model D, and was then offered months later a very attractive upgrade path to the collection, which includes an Erard baby grand (interesting & quirky, but I don't use it much), a Seiler Upright (really nice stereo image and a realistic, warm tone if you get the velocity settings matched well to your keyboard), the Fazioli 278 Grand (my favourite in the collection - very well sampled, dynamic, and well programmed (does catch-pedaling), and a very average Yamaha C7 (never use it).

All pianos only offer a single mic perspective. The Model D sounds close mic'd so is very prominent in the hammer sound (but is great for more intimate, quiet type playing) as is very resonant. Quite dynamic too. Takes a while getting the velocity response right though, but worth persisting with. The Fazioli seems to have been captured with the mics a bit further back from the soundboard & hammers, using large diaphragm condenser mics (a Neumann pair I think) and therefore sounds quite open in the tone with a lovely stereo image. Not sure how the others were mic'd. The Seiler upright was a pleasant surprise. Basic controls, but a well captured, realistic & modern sounding, well tuned upright. So in summary, having 3 unique & very different sounding pianos I use often & really enjoy out of the collection of 5 is a good outcome for me for the price.


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## CGR (Sep 17, 2017)

Finally from me, I realise this thread ran off topic a little, but getting back to the original question, my opinion is Pianoteq would be top of my list as being the closest to a technically flawless Piano VST in my experience. It will handle the most demanding playing and pedalling techniques you can throw at it (given you have a high quality, hammer action keyboard such as a Kawai VPC1, Roland RD800, Yamaha CP4 Stage etc. with a proper continuous sustain pedal or piano type tri-pedal setup).


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## PhilipJohnston (Sep 19, 2017)

OP, I'm a classically trained pianist with tens of thousands of hours on acoustic pianos of all types, spent half a decade looking for a sampled piano library that would be near enough indistinguishable from the real thing for my videos.

Take a look at what I settled on; make up your own mind:




What you're hearing is Garritan's CFX Yahama, recorded in Abbey Road Studios - I haven't found anything yet that comes close (sorry to the pianoteq people!) All the videos at my channel use the same library. (I'm not affiliated with Garritan, and would switch in a heartbeat if someone can show me a better piano)


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## sostenuto (Sep 19, 2017)

PhilipJohnston said:


> OP, I'm a classically trained pianist with tens of thousands of hours on acoustic pianos of all types, spent half a decade looking for a sampled piano library that would be near enough indistinguishable from the real thing for my videos.
> 
> Take a look at what I settled on; make up your own mind:
> 
> ...




Hmmmmmm ...... Have several VSTi Grands, including IvoryII _ Italian, and will enjoy auditioning Garritan CFX Yamaha. May have cost IvoryII _ Studio Grands an imminent order. 

Notable issues are salient 'individual/local' factors .... Good to see your post and recordings!  Would you consider sharing names of your preferred MIDI keyboard controllers for playing Garritan CFX Yamaha ?? Hoping not MIDI'd Grands, as had to (painfully) relocate favorite Grotrian Concert 225 some time back, and must now work with most reasonable Keyboard controller.


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## PhilipJohnston (Sep 19, 2017)

sostenuto said:


> Would you consider sharing names of your preferred MIDI keyboard controllers for playing Garritan CFX Yamaha ?? Hoping not MIDI'd Grands, as had to (painfully) relocate favorite Grotrian Concert 225 some time back, and must now work with most reasonable Keyboard controller.



I use a Yamaha Avante Grand N3; chose it because it has the best action of any digital piano—there's nothing in the repertoire that it cannot handle. Sold a Yamaha G3 6 foot acoustic grand to buy it, have never regretted it. (I know, that's a very expensive MIDI controller...I don't even use the on board piano sounds of the N3)


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## sostenuto (Sep 19, 2017)

PhilipJohnston said:


> I use a Yamaha Avante Grand N3; chose it because it has the best action of any digital piano—there's nothing in the repertoire that it cannot handle. Sold a Yamaha G3 6 foot acoustic grand to buy it, have never regretted it. (I know, that's a very expensive MIDI controller...I don't even use the on board piano sounds of the N3)



Thank-you for helping, sir.
Lots to go over and learn, as this was not in view previously.


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## jmvideo (Sep 20, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> This one here is. And I would say whoever says "meh" to Pianoteq didn't REALLY get to know what it can do.



What can it do?


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## bigcat1969 (Sep 20, 2017)

Well when you depress a key on your midi keyboard, PianoTeq can make a pianolike sound...

Always happy to help!


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## EvilDragon (Sep 21, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> What can it do?



Stuff that no sample library can.


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## Quasar (Sep 21, 2017)

One thing Pianoteq seems to do that sample libraries do not (at least as realistically or as prominently) is offer a semblance of the great number of additional random resonances you get when playing an acoustic piano. When you play a real piano, you get the harmonic resonances (and sample libraries I've played can capture some of that really well), but you also get a whole slew of subtle non-harmonic overtones as well, I'm guessing because when playing you're shaking the whole piano, and every string vibrates and jitters at least a little bit, affecting the character of the notes actually being played, magnified when pedaling. The Bluethner, which I've been exploring some in demo form because it's been so highly praised, seems to be especially good at this.


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## Uncle Jesse (Sep 21, 2017)

I have almost every piano library and my fav is the Garritan CFX. It has the most perfect sound for me. Especially when using the Una Croda pedal.


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## sostenuto (Sep 21, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> I have almost every piano library and my fav is the Garritan CFX. It has the most perfect sound for me. Especially when using the Una Croda pedal.


 
Encouraged to see this after such strong endorsement by @ Philipjohnston earlier, and then nothing further. 
With Ivory II Italian, OTS Rosewood, NI K11U, Add Keys, not so easy now to choose new possibilities. 
Will likely try Lite version and hope it provides solid audition.


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## prodigalson (Sep 21, 2017)

I'm selling my license for Soniccouture's Hammersmith (Standard)

Here's the link 

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/fs-soniccouture-hammersmith-standard.65142/

PM for more info!


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## KV626 (Sep 22, 2017)

jmvideo said:


> I'm wondering about all the people saying Pianoteq.... are you piano players?



Yes. And I will never go back to a sample-based sound. With the just-released version 6, it's even more true. Try it. Compare. See for yourself.


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## jmvideo (Sep 22, 2017)

KV626 said:


> Yes. And I will never go back to a sample-based sound. With the just-released version 6, it's even more true. Try it. Compare. See for yourself.



Well geez, with all the hype on here, I guess I have no choice!


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## scoringdreams (Oct 5, 2017)

sostenuto said:


> Hmmmmmm ...... Have several VSTi Grands, including IvoryII _ Italian, and will enjoy auditioning Garritan CFX Yamaha. May have cost IvoryII _ Studio Grands an imminent order.
> 
> Notable issues are salient 'individual/local' factors .... Good to see your post and recordings!  Would you consider sharing names of your preferred MIDI keyboard controllers for playing Garritan CFX Yamaha ?? Hoping not MIDI'd Grands, as had to (painfully) relocate favorite Grotrian Concert 225 some time back, and must now work with most reasonable Keyboard controller.



Hi there, I use the Garritan CFX with a Yamaha CP4 Stage and it feels amazing! =)


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## CGR (Oct 6, 2017)

scoringdreams said:


> Hi there, I use the Garritan CFX with a Yamaha CP4 Stage and it feels amazing! =)


Same here and I absolutely agree!


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 6, 2017)

Garritan CFX is the best piano library out there imo.


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## khollister (Oct 7, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> Garritan CFX is the best piano library out there imo.



Just installed it myself Thursday (threw it in on a whim along with my Roland A-88 order from Sweetwater) - wow! I have all the Galaxy pianos, Ivory II American D, Ravenscroft and Keyscape. The CFX is _by far_ the most impressive. The Ivory D is next in line IMHO. The CFX is not your stereotypical Yamaha C7 sound - while it has a little more bite than a typical Steinway D, it is far less thin and bright than most C7 libraries. Kinda slow loading though for the full perspectives even from SSD.


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 7, 2017)

khollister said:


> Just installed it myself Thursday (threw it in on a whim along with my Roland A-88 order from Sweetwater) - wow! I have all the Galaxy pianos, Ivory II American D, Ravenscroft and Keyscape. The CFX is _by far_ the most impressive. The Ivory D is next in line IMHO. The CFX is not your stereotypical Yamaha C7 sound - while it has a little more bite than a typical Steinway D, it is far less thin and bright than most C7 libraries. Kinda slow loading though for the full perspectives even from SSD.



Completely agree with all of this.


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## sostenuto (Oct 7, 2017)

Mentioned a bit earlier .... believe CFX is 9ft Concert Grand while CF6 is 7ft.
Just FYI for those who specifically want 7ft VI or salient reasons.

Enjoy several solid VI, and Garritan CFX is next to add.


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## Phryq (Oct 8, 2017)

if realistic resonance is so hard to simulate, why not sample pedal down¿ They used to do it... I could even go for a downpedal only library.


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## Fleer (Oct 8, 2017)

Sure hope you CFX guys will try ProductionVoices Grand 2. 
No way back


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## theiss1979 (Oct 8, 2017)

Fleer said:


> Sure hope you CFX guys will try ProductionVoices Grand 2.
> No way back



True, true.


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## thereus (Oct 9, 2017)

Have just installed production Grand. It’s impressive although it has some strange artefacts here and there.


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 9, 2017)

Fleer said:


> Sure hope you CFX guys will try ProductionVoices Grand 2.
> No way back


I plan on purchasing it any day now. So you reckon it holds up to the CFX?


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## sostenuto (Oct 9, 2017)

thereus said:


> Have just installed production Grand. It’s impressive although it has some strange artefacts here and there.



Hope you sort and add comment.  Head got turned to this now, but seems to only make sense with Gold version at current promo cost.


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## slobajudge (Oct 9, 2017)

I


thereus said:


> Have just installed production Grand. It’s impressive although it has some strange artefacts here and there.


Have just uninstall it because it has some artefacts here and there. I don`t like to comprise with playability. We will see if their new Steinway D will be better


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## thereus (Oct 9, 2017)

sostenuto said:


> Hope you sort and add comment.  Head got turned to this now, but seems to only make sense with Gold version at current promo cost.



It’s definitely the best deal and it mostly sounds wonderful but then a couple of sounds are completely wrong. Maybe I have a corrupt download.


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## Fleer (Oct 9, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> I plan on purchasing it any day now. So you reckon it holds up to the CFX?


Yep, but I’m a sucker for size and mics


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 10, 2017)

Voider said:


> Hey guys  I'm looking for a piano VST. What is more important to me before the sound is, that it works perfectly fine. I found a lot pianos that I did like, but most of my researches ended up with that they were not recorded proper on some notes, or that there are strange velocity issues and stuff like that - there was always something.
> 
> The last one I really liked was Mercury from wavesfactory but again, I've read that it suffers from technical issues.
> 
> Do you know a piano library you have used really often and listened to carefully, that is technically flawless, or does such a library not even exist yet?



Honestly, I don't want a "perfect" piano. There are so many, and why not have a few of them? Just use different ones for different things. I've never played a real piano which was perfect, technically. Handcrafted stuff tends to be that way. Although, I've also never played a "high end" piano...I'd prefer the "perfectly" imperfect piano, kind of like the way you should look at love. So for me it matter what kind of imperfections there are in the VST/Library. What are the specific technical issues? That's the only way to sort it out. Some of them you may be able to live with --just like a real piano.


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## pfmusic (Oct 10, 2017)

Just upgraded to Pianoteq 6 and there's some difference from version 5

Really impressed with the sound!


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## ohernie (Oct 10, 2017)

I think it's interesting that while this thread is about "flawless" pianos everyone is recommending setting the condition slider in Pianoteq one notch toward "worn", i.e., making it slightly flawed ...


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## tack (Oct 10, 2017)

ohernie said:


> I think it's interesting that while this thread is about "flawless" pianos everyone is recommending setting the condition slider in Pianoteq one notch toward "worn", i.e., making it slightly flawed ...


It's because the context of "flawless" in the OP wasn't flawless sound but flawless behavior. And even with flawed sound, Pianoteq's behavior is unimpeachable.


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## sostenuto (Oct 10, 2017)

Sibelius19 said:


> Honestly, I don't want a "perfect" piano. There are so many, and why not have a few of them? Just use different ones for different things. I've never played a real piano which was perfect, technically. Handcrafted stuff tends to be that way. Although, I've also never played a "high end" piano...I'd prefer the "perfectly" imperfect piano, kind of like the way you should look at love. So for me it matter what kind of imperfections there are in the VST/Library. What are the specific technical issues? That's the only way to sort it out. Some of them you may be able to live with --just like a real piano.



Have played/owned several 'high-end' grand pianos and 'organic' interaction varies quite a bit, even in same room/venue, depending on ...... _almost infinite variables_. ONLY speaking for my personal experiences, knowing those of others can be very different.

Sitting down today, at Roland KR577, playing IvoryII Italian Grand VI, thru 'decent' PC/I/F/Amp/Spkrs or HDfones is _never_ anything like interacting with an acoustic instrument.
Next person, touching keyboard with their fingers, hearing with their ears, in their venue, with their 'system' .... is a completely different experience. Same for the next, and the next .....

I follow these Posts, reviews, etc., mainly looking for problem issues described, sometimes comparative impressions of interest, but not sure what else can be of help .... IMHO


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## Erick - BVA (Oct 10, 2017)

So this is the first time I'm really looking into Pianoteq. I watched the entire *Phil Best *review video. It sounds very nice, but I can tell it's not a real piano. It's pretty darned close, but it's lacking something. It seems like maybe it's like the Serum of Piano VST. It sounds great, but it's definitely not analog. Yeah, they may be on to something as far as tweakability and predictability goes. In that regard, a really good, tweakable acoustic sampled piano is the XLN Addictive Keys. Yeah, I've heard complaints about the tone and such, but they have a lot of options under the hood in that one. I'm still of the mindset of having multiple sampled pianos and tweaking those. But if I had the money, someday, maybe I'd consider the Pianoteq.


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## tack (Oct 10, 2017)

Sibelius19 said:


> It sounds very nice, but I can tell it's not a real piano.


Try out the demo, and specifically the Bluethner, because:

The Bluethner is IMO the best sounding of the lot.
The experience of getting it under your hands is amazingly different than listening to demos. When I listen back to things I record with Pianoteq I start to notice the uncanny valley more, but interestingly while I'm actually playing it, I _feel_ much more of a real connection and sense of response and control that minimizes my attention to the acoustic deficiencies.
This might argue against using Pianoteq in a mix, but I think that you just get a better performance with Pianoteq because of the greater sense of control. So the question, whose answer will surely vary by individual, is whether or not the improved performance outweighs the sonic criticisms.


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## CGR (Oct 10, 2017)

tack said:


> Try out the demo, and specifically the Bluethner, because:
> 
> The Bluethner is IMO the best sounding of the lot.
> The experience of getting it under your hands is amazingly different than listening to demos. When I listen back to things I record with Pianoteq I start to notice the uncanny valley more, but interestingly while I'm actually playing it, I _feel_ much more of a real connection and sense of response and control that minimizes my attention to the acoustic deficiencies.
> This might argue against using Pianoteq in a mix, but I think that you just get a better performance with Pianoteq because of the greater sense of control. So the question, whose answer will surely vary by individual, is whether or not the improved performance outweighs the sonic criticisms.


Very astute assessment there. I'd also put the Steinway Model B up there with the Bluthner.


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## sostenuto (Oct 10, 2017)

Would 'put up there' for sure ..... Steinway B Grand Piano from Power Station New England in Waterford, Connecticut __ 1 of 2 impressive, excellent VI pianos in IvoryII _ Studio Grands.


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## Fleer (Oct 10, 2017)

CGR said:


> Very astute assessment there. I'd also put the Steinway Model B up there with the Bluthner.


Passed on that Model B for the Grotrian to accompany the Blüthner. Never looked back


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## slobajudge (Oct 10, 2017)

YC5 in Pianoteq 6 is a pleasant surprise for me. Now every piano sounds good.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 11, 2017)

Hmmm..For what it's worth in this old thread, I fall into the Pianoteq "meh" category as well. Sounds kinda hazy to my ears. Clearly immensely expressive and I suppose in context it might be ok. If you want to go down that route, then Black Grand I find very satisfying. It seems to be part sampled part modelled and it's pretty even, and has a tiny footprint. I use it for sketching and often it gets left in because it's just getting the job done.


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 11, 2017)

I don't like Pianoteq one bit. I just don't get what all the hype is about. It sounds so lifeless and synthetic. It might be playable, but I would never use it on a proper release.


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## sostenuto (Oct 11, 2017)

No real issues with Pianoteq, or many others mentioned here. Wonder if much has to do with VI, User, and abilities/capabilities to 'tweak' as needed for desired result(s). Memories go back to 2015 Shele'a video ... Love Fell On Me. 

At 3:50 ( maybe 4:36 to 5:11)Tony Sheppard talks about his work with the VI. I have used IvoryII Italian for years, and simply do not have the chops to get close to what Mssr. Sheppard gets from the VI. I tried hard to get Ilio/Synthogy to provide something of his 'settings' and no luck (no surprise either). 

Just musing about this diverse discussion, as I continue to struggle with several, cool piano VI(s), to extract what is likely there, yet out of my reach .... 

Will likely add another Grand soon, even knowing that limitations are mostly between my ears .....


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## EvilDragon (Oct 12, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> It sounds so lifeless and synthetic. It might be playable, but I would never use it on a proper release.



Eeeep, wrong answer. It's much more lively than any sample library, which just sounds static and dead, especially with certain material. It can and has been used on proper releases without problems, or apparently anyone noticing, heheh.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 12, 2017)

I don't care for Pianoteq either. I keep trying to like it and failing. Same with Ivory and Ivory 2.


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 12, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Eeeep, wrong answer. It's much more lively than any sample library, which just sounds static and dead, especially with certain material. It can and has been used on proper releases without problems, or apparently anyone noticing, heheh.


"*I* would never use it on a proper release" - Just my opinion mate. I'm happy it works for you.. It seems to treat a lot of people on this forum very well. However, that is one piano I won't work with and I own almost every piano library available.


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## Fleer (Oct 12, 2017)

Same here, and I just love Pianoteq.


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## Kevin Fortin (Oct 14, 2017)

NYC Chaz said:


> Chocolate Audio does not get enough love in my opinion.Their model D is one of my favorites.


Thank you! I had not heard of Chocolate Audio before, but I really like the sound of their demos as well as their Kontakt interface for the 88 series.

Particular products aside, I also appreciate the different viewpoints and ways of thinking expressed in this thread.


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## Phryq (Oct 14, 2017)

Surprised no one is mentioning Orange Tree. It's IMO *the* best piano VST; not as tweakable as Pianoteq, but more realistic.

Would be nice if they came out with a bosendorfer or the same quality. Or if Embertone made a piano.


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## Fleer (Oct 15, 2017)

OrangeTreeSamples Rosewood Grand, and the recently updated Soundiron Emotional Piano, two absolute beauties. Would welcome one from Embertone too, that’s for sure. And a good sampled rendition of a Blüthner.


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## sostenuto (Oct 15, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Surprised no one is mentioning Orange Tree. It's IMO *the* best piano VST; not as tweakable as Pianoteq, but more realistic.
> 
> Would be nice if they came out with a bosendorfer or the same quality. Or if Embertone made a piano.



Other very positive posts elsewhere for OTS Rosewood. Is my first option when IvoryII Italian ever seees iffy. Maybe you recall, there is an Upgrade in the works involving _resonance_. Hopefully this fairly close, and may push Rosewood Grand much higher for many Users.


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## axb312 (Nov 23, 2017)

No love for the pearl concert grand here?


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## chasmanian (Nov 23, 2017)

I have been thinking about getting it. highly recommended by some members here.


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## CGR (Nov 23, 2017)

axb312 said:


> No love for the pearl concert grand here?


Yep - I'm a fan of it and have used it in a number of tracks. It's definitely more on the ringing/resonant side of the spectrum as far as Yamaha C7's go (an older 80's era C7 I think) which is a great thing for some music. It has a wonderful 3D soundstage too and very flexible mic perspectives. In the right hands certain recordings with it would fool most into believing it was a real piano. Some have complained about minor re-pedalling issues, and the occasional build up of noise in some uses, but I've never found it to be a huge problem - it's a trade-of for the very 'alive' sound they captured. On sale at present I think and worth seriously considering IMHO.


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## axb312 (Nov 23, 2017)

CGR said:


> Yep - I'm a fan of it and have used it in a number of tracks. It's definitely more on the ringing/resonant side of the spectrum as far as Yamaha C7's go (an older 80's era C7 I think) which is a great thing for some music. It has a wonderful 3D soundstage too and very flexible mic perspectives. In the right hands certain recordings with it would fool most into believing it was a real piano. Some have complained about minor re-pedalling issues, and the occasional build up of noise in some uses, but I've never found it to be a huge problem - it's a trade-of for the very 'alive' sound they captured. On sale at present I think and worth seriously considering IMHO.



I tried a few pianos - fed them the same midi data and the pearl concert grand sounded the best to me. 

Two I have haven't tried yet and wonder how they sound in comparison - The Acoustic samples Fazioli (whose link I can't seem to find) and the Garritan CFX. Any opinions on how these compare?


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## CGR (Nov 23, 2017)

axb312 said:


> I tried a few pianos - fed them the same midi data and the pearl concert grand sounded the best to me.
> 
> Two I have haven't tried yet and wonder how they sound in comparison - The Acoustic samples Fazioli (whose link I can't seem to find) and the Garritan CFX. Any opinions on how these compare?


Yeah, the Pearl C7 sounds great. I also own the UVI Fazioli (is that what you meant by Acoustic Samples?) and full version of the Garritan CFX. The Fazioli is a pleasure to play (best of the UVI collection IMO) but a little limited with just 1 stereo mic perspective, and a somewhat limited dynamic, though it's smooth to play and very easy on your system. Thin enough to work well in a dense mix too. The Garritan CFX is top notch. Very flexible in shaping your sound, huge dynamic range and fantastic playability. Not my first choice for an intimate sound, given the airy ambience of Abbey Road's Studio A is evident in the tone, even dry.


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## axb312 (Nov 23, 2017)

CGR said:


> Yeah, the Pearl C7 sounds great. I also own the UVI Fazioli (is that what you meant by Acoustic Samples?) and full version of the Garritan CFX. The Fazioli is a pleasure to play (best of the UVI collection IMO) but a little limited with just 1 stereo mic perspective, and a somewhat limited dynamic, though it's smooth to play and very easy on your system. Thin enough to work well in a dense mix too. The Garritan CFX is top notch. Very flexible in shaping your sound, huge dynamic range and fantastic playability. Not my first choice for an intimate sound, given the airy ambience of Abbey Road's Studio A is evident in the tone, even dry.



Yes. UVI I suppose...

So between the CFX and the pearl, your choice would be?


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## CGR (Nov 23, 2017)

axb312 said:


> Yes. UVI I suppose...
> 
> So between the CFX and the pearl, your choice would be?


Awwhhh - don't make me choose! If you want a more polished sound and a better recorded and programmed sampled piano, go the Garritan CFX. There IS something about that sweet bell-like tone of the Pearl which you won't find in the Garritan CFX though!


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## CGR (Nov 23, 2017)

. . . Which is why is hard not to go for it and buy almost all of them!


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## Batrawi (Apr 13, 2018)

Rob said:


> The moment the hammers impact the strings is the crucial part of the sound of a piano to me...



Amen to this...and I heard no library that can do better than the 1954 baldwin piano in this regard.
A truly magical and authentic sounding piano that I can't recommend enough!


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## KEM (Apr 13, 2018)

Never heard of Pianoteq, guess I’m gonna have to look into it as well...


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## CGR (Apr 14, 2018)

You really need to check this new one out:
https://vi-control.net/community/th...t-grand-released-introductory-offer-99.70177/


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## Fleer (Apr 14, 2018)

Batrawi said:


> Amen to this...and I heard no library that can do better than the 1954 baldwin piano in this regard.
> A truly magical and authentic sounding piano that I can't recommend enough!


Quite so


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## Fleer (Apr 14, 2018)

Fleer said:


> Passed on that Model B for the Grotrian to accompany the Blüthner. Never looked back


Did look back after all and prefer the zingy Steinway D to the Grotrian, while the Blüthner leads the pack with its subdued tonality.


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## Fleer (Apr 14, 2018)

CGR said:


> You really need to check this new one out:
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...t-grand-released-introductory-offer-99.70177/


And this one:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinepiano-coming-soon.70046/#post-4212990


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## Pantonal (Apr 14, 2018)

tack said:


> To me, apart from reliability and consistency, this also means sane behavior as congruent as possible to a real acoustic piano. For example, many sample-based pianos just pedal all wrong. Minimally it needs to support repedalling -- and I'm still amazed how many modern piano libraries don't even get that right.


Something about this post stuck with me and then it dawned on me that another aspect of acoustic pianos is the never note perfect performance. I know when I'm playing in a part the first thing to do is edit out all the notes that got played in error, big mistakes are easy, but there's always some very short low velocity notes, ghost notes. Even in an ostensibly note perfect live performance by a world class pianist if you were able to look at midi output there would probably be some ghost notes in there. Should a virtual piano (whether sampled or modeled) throw some in after we make the effort to edit them out, or just not bother editing them out? Of course I'm asking tongue in cheek, but that IS an aspect of a real live acoustic piano performance. I guess the question is how real do you want it to be?


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 14, 2018)

I don’t think any piano library can be perfect by any means; simply better for some uses than others. For me, my go-to’s are Cinesamples’ Piano in Blue, their new CinePiano, and Soundiron’s Emotional Piano.


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## Phryq (Apr 16, 2018)

Definitely don't want the sampled piano adding wrong notes in!! If I make a mistake inputting and was to keep it, I'll keep it!! haha.

Personally, I'm not so keep on having soooo many mic positions. I like just having a close-mic and verb.

Would be nice if more piano libs would use real pedal-down samples. Love that tone.


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## robgb (Apr 16, 2018)

This thread has been around so long I can't remember whether I chimed in or not. But for all of those who have recommended Pianoteq, which is great, I'd also recommend another modeled piano, Arturia's Piano V2. It's a great library with lots of control over sound.


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## Casiquire (Apr 16, 2018)

robgb said:


> This thread has been around so long I can't remember whether I chimed in or not. But for all of those who have recommended Pianoteq, which is great, I'd also recommend another modeled piano, Arturia's Piano V2. It's a great library with lots of control over sound.



I've heard great things and a demo between the two that a very thoughtful member posted. It was great, the differences were subtle and not at all the night-and-day difference I expected.


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## Danny Truong (Apr 16, 2018)

Whoa , thanks! The Vilabs piano was just what I was looking for! These pianos sound a lot richer, in your face and layers of texture (hard to capture?) are more present. 



chapbot said:


> I've been hearing all about Pianoteq lately - tried it years ago and... meh. So I just downloaded the latest demo. Meh - I would put it in the same league as TruePianos. I like TruePianos much better and still use it as a quick program to open when I need to sketch (opens instantly with no loading.) Here's a short comparison between Pianoteq, Ravenscroft and American Grand (I use Raven and American.) By itself I like American Grand best, but I find Ravenscroft's brightness cuts through my pop productions much better. You'll hear the clarity, realism and depth of the Raven and American compared to Pianoteq. This demo is straight out of the "box" with no effects:
> 
> https://clyp.it/qjtbndtn
> 
> ...


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## Phillip (Apr 16, 2018)

I record MIDI with Pianoteq, then run MIDI file through the library of choice ( Galaxy, Garritan CFX etc). Playability + Sound.


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