# Worst Score ever... John Williams' Paper Chase... ??!!!



## gsilbers (Dec 13, 2008)

man what a surprise. 

this score is sooo bad... acid jazz and baroque and smooth jazzy all over. its like 6 years or more older than star wars so i am impressed on how far he went in such a short time or how bad the director was in choosing the music. 

check it out.. your face will be like :shock:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2008)

We just watched the DVD of Frost/Nixon, and I thought Hans Zimmer's score worked really well.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 14, 2008)

gsilbers @ Sat Dec 13 said:


> man what a surprise.
> 
> this score is sooo bad... acid jazz and baroque and smooth jazzy all over. its like 6 years or more older than star wars so i am impressed on how far he went in such a short time or how bad the director was in choosing the music.
> 
> check it out.. your face will be like :shock:



When I read a post like this, three things occur to me.

1. It's amaing how many scores I don't remember.

2. Some scores are fine at the time but do not age well as they are trendy.

3. What a shame it is that in contemporary culture that people are not raised with enough respect for a person who has a lifetime of overall good work that they would post a topic like this. Kindly point me to the film of a similar nature where you did a better score. 

I know it is not a popular view on this forum, but I will once again make the argument that if you cannot point to where you have proved that you can do it as well or better, it is arrogant, shallow, and just wrong behavior to go on a public forum and take shots at someone who has, like John Williams.


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## JohnG (Dec 14, 2008)

Well...

I agree that it is bad manners to insult John Williams (maybe him in particular, but others too who have demonstrated skill), so shame on the OP for so casually and colloquially dissing the guy who single-handedly revived the craft of film scoring. Extremely bad manners, I'm afraid, in rereading the OP.

But I don't want to see free speech supressed on this forum, particularly in matters of taste, since taste / artistic judgement is arguably the most important element that we bring to scoring. As one develops a measure of control over technique -- harmony, orchestration, conducting, and the tedium of wrestling computers into submission -- one's artistic sense and decisions increasingly become the decisive elements in moving along the continuum from hack to 'real composer.' In my view, criticising others' work necessarily is part of this. 

Brahms reportedly burned 1/3 of his compositions in the last three days of his life because he thought they weren't so hot, an anecdote that, even if apocryphal, reminds us that not everything ever penned by the Great Ones is at an equal standard. 

I would feel very different about the OP if there were some deference expressed, something like, "considering what a genius for film Mr. W has, it is remarkable that, for me personally,..." etc. But I think it is wrong to say that one would have to have been nominated 50 times for Best Score by the academy to express anything negative about one of Mr. Williams' scores.

We have had this discussion before, Jay, so sorry to repeat myself! I am not for insulting those who have gone before us, but equally I think it is a mistake to suppress discussion. Many, maybe most, great thinkers and artists began as "arrogant upstarts without enough respect for their elders."


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## poseur (Dec 14, 2008)

JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Well...
> 
> I agree that it is bad manners to insult John Williams (maybe him in particular, but others too who have demonstrated skill), so shame on the OP for so casually and colloquially dissing the guy who single-handedly revived the craft of film scoring. Extremely bad manners, I'm afraid, in rereading the OP.


i'm in full agreement, here.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> But I don't want to see free speech supressed on this forum, particularly in matters of taste, since taste / artistic judgement is arguably the most important element that we bring to scoring.


..... add "perspective" into your list,
and i'll agree with that, as well, fwiw;
it's not arguable, internally nor practically, for me.....
..... i'd definitely prefer to deliver a partially-realised presentation
of a great concept,
than a great presentation
of a partially-formed concept.

the proliferation of free discourse via the 'net
is, somehow, amazing;
that amazingness, though, easily descends
into (to quote a friend) "an unrelenting idiotfest"
where a basic ground of respect (for hard-earned work,
for influential work,
for "facts" of historical events & provenance,
for others' opinions, for informed & educated opinions,
for the real lives of the vaunted or terminally-criticised principals who live on "the front line", etc)
is lacking.

imo,
thread-titles like
"worst score EVAR"
wave the stereotypical banner
for the propagation of idiot-fests.

¿"musicians helping musicians"?, right?
i wonder who this type of thread might help:
john williams? me? you?
or, does such a thread only help bolster the poster's
own lack of self-worth,
or to define his- or her- insecure,
NOT on any-front-line-self through
the questionable vehicle of
criticism that seems focussed upon 
someone else's (usually, someone seen as more
generally "successful"-than-themselves) expense?
("if john williams can suck, i can feel better about 
my own sorry situation; i don't have to try so hard to
commit to anything of value", etc etc etc).

discourse is a resource;
resources are often targets of abuse.

intelligent discourse comes at a premium,
even amongst musicians.




JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> As one develops a measure of control over technique -- harmony, orchestration, conducting, and the tedium of wrestling computers into submission -- one's artistic sense and decisions increasingly become the decisive elements in moving along the continuum from hack to 'real composer.'


i respectfully disagree with this perspective, jg;
though it might deny first-focus on educational models & the primacy of an "outer-directed" work ethic,
i believe that creative impulses,
the muscle that is the heart of compositional intent,
is (are) the point(s) of origin..... 
refinement & sophistication
follow, serving the need/desire
to _*work*_ with such impulses.
i think.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> In my view, criticising others' work necessarily is part of this.


again: agreed!
the presentation, nature & intent of such criticism,
however,
contains meaning beyond these 2 dimensions.
if we're composers, we must decide for ourselves
what does & does not work for us.....
..... in order to learn, for our individual work,
from our contemporaries, & those who precede us:
again:
"worst score EVAR" doesn't impart
much depth to the value of the criticism, at all.
threads like
"5 best mp3s 2008", or
"fav bit torrent", or
"fastesest voilinst EVARR" etc
seem to regualrly appear
from the gunnels of similar trawlers,
here in these pirate-infested digital waters.
imo.

d


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

funny to think i am insulting him. i said i was amazed and surprise and how bad that score was and then how good the rest is. its something you would never think he did. 
and wondering of what happened in such a short time. or maybe was the direction or production team that decided the music. 
maybe i wont be able to right something better or equal but the diference is soo great from his other works that makes me wanna know what happen and learn from it. 

yeesh.. we all know john williams is everyones hero and a little thread like this which can shed some light on his learning shouldn't threat you'alls existence :roll:

by the way.. "Worst anything ever" which of course comes from the comicbook store guy in the simpsons. its just mere joke.. do you want me to change the name of the thread to "why did john williams score the paper chase the way he did and fail to achieve the usual grandiosity of all other film scores and how can we learn from this
part of his past?"

yeesh. sorry to have insulted u guys.. ill be nicer next time


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## poseur (Dec 14, 2008)

gsilbers @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> funny to think i am insulting him. i said i was amazed and surprise and how bad that score was and then how good the rest is. its something you would never think he did.
> and wondering of what happened in such a short time. or maybe was the direction or production team that decided the music.
> maybe i wont be able to right something better or equal but the diference is soo great from his other works that makes me wanna know what happen and learn from it.
> yeesh.. we all know john williams is everyones hero and a little thread like this which can shed some light on his learning shouldn't threat you'alls existence :roll:


certainly,
i'm in no way threatened by your post.
and,
JW is not my "hero".

simply said,
i find the thread-title despicably troll-y.

i would prefer to hear the specifics of 
why this score doesn't work for you
(from a filmic POV)
in direct relation to other scores of JW
that DO work for you (also, from a filmic POV).....
and, what, as a composer,
you've actually gleaned/learnt from your
criticism & comparison:
what value this has for you, as a composer/musician.
otherwise, the thread appears like
a gazillion other fanboi/hater threads
that populate the 'net.
sorry!

d


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

poseur @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> gsilbers @ Sun Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > funny to think i am insulting him. i said i was amazed and surprise and how bad that score was and then how good the rest is. its something you would never think he did.
> ...




cool! 

for starters.. there is no intro music or opening titles. 
the 1st scene is students coming into their classroom.. no music.. for about 
10 minutes.. just the sound of them entering the class. 
this as wel as other scenes where music could have help a lot. but again
it could be the direction. and JW being like.. "oh well, its our movie. "

then their is the acid jazz. and not like catch me if u can" which was amazing but this was very weird. and then changed to smooth jazz.. but a very strange smooth jazz. 
so im wondering where did he get it from , other tv and film shows which had something like it. 
or if he was trying out diferent harmonic and melodic ideas and what failed and what worked for other movies. 

also the baroque music. which didnt match the scenes at all. 


btw, this movie won 2 or 3 oscars i think.

now i am wondering of space camp.


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## JohnG (Dec 14, 2008)

So, shouldn't you be criticising the director?

don't like the spotting (no opening titles)? director

don't like the quasi-source Baroque cues? director's choice (whether or not Williams actually wrote them)

Descriptions like "very weird" or "very strange smooth jazz" don't exactly bolster one's faith in your musical thoughtfulness or training.

This was an era when TV shows and movies were trying to capture the pop success of Burt Bacharach and that whole crowd. thankfully that era is gone.

I must say, seeing what you wrote here makes me sorry that I defended your original post in any way.


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 14, 2008)

From a VI perspective on free speech...

We have noticed throughout the years how well members end up policing themselves.
A title such "Worst Score Ever" is obviously going to raise a few eyebrows and members as always jump in to make their own perceived corrections. Also good information and view points invariably come to the table. The OP in this case may or may not change his or her mind but most likely will think twice before taking a similar tact.

If the OP was a troll he would have taken a different direction in his following posts. I know while being faulty in thinking or approach in this case, we all try to serve our ego at some time or another.


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 14, 2008)

Give the guy a bit of a break - no not JW - but the OP. It's his opinion and opinions are the life blood of forums (which is exactly what this place is unless I am very much mistaken). All he needs to do now is explain why he feels the way he does and provide some kind of argumentation and analysis that transcends vain value judgement. We'll wait and see what he comes up with.... 

The problem with icons like JW, The Beatles, Mozart et al (not that Mozart really belongs in that company of course  ), is that somehow people have convinced themselves that they are beyond critical examination and potential reproach and instead simply spout hagiographical nonsense about their often very ordinary music and lambast others for holding a different opinion. Tis bollocks; unthinking and unhelpful. 

I also think it's all too easy to be critical about a score which has as its sole and primary objective to serve the demands of the film. Indeed as others have pointed out the film is always the bastard love child of the director not the composer's vehicle. If film music does not stand up to being played in isolation, so what - that's not its function. 

Cheers


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## poseur (Dec 14, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> A title such "Worst Score Ever" is obviously going to raise a few eyebrows and members as always jump in to make their own perceived corrections. Also good information and view points invariably come to the table. The OP in this case may or may not change his or her mind but most likely will think twice before taking a similar tact.
> 
> If the OP was a troll he would have taken a different direction in his following posts. I know while being faulty in thinking or approach in this case, we all try to serve our ego at some time or another.


points understood & taken, craig;
as well, to the OP:
i'm sorry if i went into rant-mode,
AND i'm glad that you understood, anyway,
what was at the heart of the rant:
details about what you've learnt,
how the criticism actually informs your own work.
again, my apologies for my misperceptions
& any occasional "intensities".
best,
d


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> So, shouldn't you be criticising the director?
> 
> .
> 
> ...




i am only grabbing this portion of your post because its the only productive comment...



so it could be that this score wasn't bad but its related to film music history when at this time film music was more a "pop" score? so there wasn't a more "structured" way of scoring films like nowadays. 
i heard or read somewhere that star wars was actually the movie that broke this convention? 
of using an orchestra all the way and paving the road for modern film music.


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## José Herring (Dec 14, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> I know it is not a popular view on this forum, but I will once again make the argument that if you cannot point to where you have proved that you can do it as well or better, it is arrogant, shallow, and just wrong behavior to go on a public forum and take shots at someone who has, like John Williams.



I agree with this. John Williams and "worst score ever" just don't equate. c'mon guys. We've all had gigs that we couldn't necessarily do our best work. Especially early in a career.

I've been guilty of being overly critical sometimes, but now I recognize it for what it is. Just jealousy. So I don't do it anymore. It reflects bad on the critic.

Jose


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

Rousseau @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Give the guy a bit of a break - no not JW - but the OP. It's his opinion and opinions are the life blood of forums (which is exactly what this place is unless I am very much mistaken). All he needs to do now is explain why he feels the way he does and provide some kind of argumentation and analysis that transcends vain value judgement. We'll wait and see what he comes up with....
> 
> The problem with icons like JW, The Beatles, Mozart et al (not that Mozart really belongs in that company of course  ), is that somehow people have convinced themselves that they are beyond critical examination and potential reproach and instead simply spout hagiographical nonsense about their often very ordinary music and lambast others for holding a different opinion. Tis bollocks; unthinking and unhelpful.
> 
> ...





thanks dude. 

wouldnt u think that if john william decided to get a computer  and check this forum out and besides replying to me what an ass i am , to describe what happened all those years in between paper chase and star wars (most famous)and what 
mistakes he did, and what made him realize how a scene should be score and what finally made him get that sound and that has been so great and strong thoughout the years ( i believe all his scores are great and consistent.. not gradually better, but all equally as good) 
wouldnt it be great thing to learn and know?
i guess now , film music has become so "standard" that to know what to do u just 
follow whats been done. but back then film music had a diferent approach and also had the "pop" influence. so what did JW realize when stemming from that convention.


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 14, 2008)

I'm upholding and defending the tenet of free speech and healthy debate here rather than necessarily agreeing with you gsilbers.

I would love to eventually be 1% as successful as JW - well actually 0.5% would do in reality. However, that is not the same thing as saying that I'm a great fan of his music; indeed I've always thought of him as a 20th century Handel for obvious reasons. Some of his musical output is timeless, epoch making and astonishingly effective, some of it is patently regurgitated and self-plagiarised. One thing is certain, as I think John G pointed out, JW made the case most persuasively for orchestral film music; we see his musical mark pretty much everywhere. 

cheers


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

again, just a joke from the comic book guy. lighten up..

how many of you would have read and write on this thread if it just said "the paper chase" 


the guy is a genious. .. so why did this movie had a score like this. direction? time contriants? 

and its only when i saw the credits which made me raised an eyebrow. 
i saw the movie and was thinking.. such bad choices (as in using baroque andacid jazz) and wierd compositions (wierd as in 
using a lot tensions and non diatonic harmony for smooth jazz with no reginizable melody) on scenes where didnt actually make sense.

there is plenty of bad movies and scores out there but only when i saw who did it i was perplexed and curious. 
of course this is all IMO.. the movie won oscars.. and sold a lot. 
and how can u tel if something is good or bad in this society .. if it sold well.. 
is britnet spears good? eveyone will say no.. but she is selling a lot. so therefor is the only way of mesuring good or bad. 
so the score on paper chase imo worked at some level . and in post its all about making it work. 

if i ever talked to JW id ask him.. "what the fuk was that johnny? what happen? and how and when did u go from THAT to your current way of awsome scoring?


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

Rousseau @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> I'm upholding and defending the tenet of free speech and healthy debate here rather than necessarily agreeing with you gsilbers.
> 
> I would love to eventually be 1% as successful as JW - well actually 0.5% would do in reality. However, that is not the same thing as saying that I'm a great fan of his music; indeed I've always thought of him as a 20th century Handel for obvious reasons. Some of his musical output is timeless, epoch making and astonishingly effective, some of it is patently regurgitated and self-plagiarised. One thing is certain, as I think John G pointed out, JW made the case most persuasively for orchestral film music; we see his musical mark pretty much everywhere.
> 
> cheers




oh dont worry .. everyone knows u are not on my side but respecting diferent opinions. 


seems everyone is defending JW as a great composer.. which is something i didnt say. all my posts say how good the guy is. and damn with fukin pencil and paper! 

JW and jerry goldsmith are w/o a doubt the greatyest fil mmusc composer that there ever be. and both have shaped up the sound and history of film music.


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 14, 2008)

gsilbers @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> again, just a joke from the comic book guy. lighten up..
> 
> how many of you would have read and write on this thread if it just said "the paper chase"
> 
> ...



Now you're the one spouting hagiographical drivel - what is a 'genius'? It's a hackneyed and vacuous hangover from the 19th century. 

Anyway, in my rather limited experience of professional composition (in comparison to JW), I find that I'm always cringing at music from my last project let alone something I did 10 years ago! The reality is that the day we stop learning, improving, developing and becoming more effective as media composers, is the day we need to give up and sell insurance.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

Don't tell anyone, but I've written music that was worse.


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Don't tell anyone, but I've written music that was worse.




hahaha yep me too! 

sometimes there is no composition.. its using a loop from garageband the video editors use.. i guess its still composition.


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

...


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

Rousseau @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> gsilbers @ Sun Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > again, just a joke from the comic book guy. lighten up..
> ...





interesting thing to me is that JW's star wars and i dunno , one of his latestss.. lets say harry potter are equally as good. its like the guy lived in a time bubble where he always knew what to write and how to write it that good.. (except for paper chase  )

i saw him in the hollywood bowl and he plays all his works back to back and u could not hear a diference in quality of composition. it all rocked. but then again, i think he writes for that concert as suppose of copy pasiting the scores. still, his soundtracks in my itunes play his stuff at random and i couldnt hear one score better than the other.


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 14, 2008)

But what does 'better' mean? More 'effective', more 'affective', more soundtrack sales, more Oscars...? We, as composers, should really try to avoid falling into such critical traps... The bottom line is (and of course this is a realist and pragmatic position) that if the director and producer were happy, then the music was perfect for the project. Period (to paraphrase our colonial cousins).


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## Dave Connor (Dec 14, 2008)

I don't think anyone is begrudging any criticism (and hopefully not a critical response to that criticism.) But here you have maybe the most consistent film composer in the history of the art being sighted for a rare shortfall. We don't have any idea what the film makers wanted from the guy: only that he delivered a score they approved.

It's kind of like talking about what a lousy game Joe DiMaggio had the day before he began is his 56 game hitting streak.


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 14, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Don't tell anyone, but I've written music that was worse.



Worse than me Nick - surely not. Don't exaggerate :mrgreen:


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## poseur (Dec 14, 2008)

Rousseau @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Give the guy a bit of a break - no not JW - but the OP. It's his opinion and opinions are the life blood of forums (which is exactly what this place is unless I am very much mistaken). All he needs to do now is explain why he feels the way he does and provide some kind of argumentation and analysis that transcends vain value judgement. We'll wait and see what he comes up with....


kinda what i said, though i spoke w/a bit more..... ermmmm.....
venom.



Rousseau @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> The problem with icons like JW, The Beatles, Mozart et al (not that Mozart really belongs in that company of course  ), is that somehow people have convinced themselves that they are beyond critical examination and potential reproach and instead simply spout hagiographical nonsense about their often very ordinary music and lambast others for holding a different opinion. Tis bollocks; unthinking and unhelpful.


i certainly would never suggest 
lionising anyone; but,
i'd expect more useful, specific criticism
(and some delineation of the value such criticism
has yielded for the critic)
within a room filled with
"'_*posers helping 'posers*_".




Rousseau @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> I also think it's all too easy to be critical about a score which has as its sole and primary objective to serve the demands of the film. Indeed as others have pointed out the film is always the bastard love child of the director not the composer's vehicle. If film music does not stand up to being played in isolation, so what - that's not its function.


partial agreement, there, re:
separating the actual, working demands of a film
from the resultant score.
but.
personally, i can be satisfied with my score when
it serves its filmic function well;
but, i can only be proud of the score
when the music works (for me, for some others)
"in isolation".
art isn't industry,
and (unfortunately, for me),
i'm still shooting (blindly, i know) for art.....
..... or, something that might approach it,
rather than fulfilling industrial "standards".
f••• that, yo!, whenever possible!

d


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## Ashermusic (Dec 14, 2008)

1. I did not say the topic should be censored.

2. There is a difference between freedom and license.

3. It's bad manners whether it is John Williams, Hans Zimmer, or Joe the Plummer's score.

There are lots of ways to discuss the craft of film scoring without attacking a specific score in the title that way on a public forum.

But if someone does not understand why because they simply lack the sensibility, I guess there is no imparting it.


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

interesting because its hard to judge a film score. if the movie went and got awards and sold well in theatres and secondary markets but u can tell the score was not good at all (maybe the editors used loops or it was the director playing the same acustic guitar hmm hmwood) 
was the score good. ?
maybe it didnt even work for the scene, its just there on top of mundane dialog just because the producers said the dialog was too long or noisy. 
with music its mesured in album and song sales if something is good. 
in art its the price it would sell for in an auction.


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> 1. I did not say the topic should be censored.
> 
> 2. There is a difference between freedom and license.
> 
> ...



again sorry to insulted a score. and it was based on the simpsons joke. 
but however u wanna take it dude really. 

u coundt just see the thread and wonder about the score 1st and maybe i meant that 
i am interssted to see how the hell did JW learn so fast his art or what happened in that movie. to learn from either of those two could help a lot. 

the score is still bad in my opinion.. that you couldnt and shouldnt care less obviously, 
but the thread is moslty about what i mostly said and been saying beside that one line and the title which is obviously a joke,. man how can someone make the worst score ever?!! what does that mean really besides a joke?! that a socre is so bad that u actually turn the tv off? white noise throught the film?! wouldnt a worst score
ever be something so bad that it lives in history and comon knowledge? 
so try to read more of the thread besides posting.
because i am mostly inerested in 

what happen, why it happened and what did he learn from it to be able to do such great scores. of course its all speculation as he is not here writing but others can share their speculation and opiions on the score. 

but i can easily just go along wiht the mob and keep on saying yes his stuff sucks he sucks and al his works sucked. cause thats very productive. and oh man that deserves writing a lot about. cause no way on the world no one can have a diferent opion no matter how its stated. :roll: oh pleale dont try to understand what i meant or what others mean please write about it clearly and wrtie what i am used to w/o jokes. oh yes, that way i can make a civilized comment of what been said 20 thosand times. 
:roll:


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## JohnG (Dec 14, 2008)

Ashermusic @ 14th December 2008 said:


> I did not say the topic should be censored.



Yes, in effect, you did. You said that nobody should criticise a score unless he has an equal or better score, which would prevent most composers from saying anything negative about most of the A-list (or even B-list) scores.



Ashermusic @ 14th December 2008 said:


> But if someone does not understand why because they simply lack the sensibility, I guess there is no imparting it.



Jay, when someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean that he lacks the sensibility. It means he disagrees with you.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 14, 2008)

JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> Ashermusic @ 14th December 2008 said:
> 
> 
> > I did not say the topic should be censored.
> ...



I suggested he self-censor. It is not the same thing. Liberty does not equal license.

Sorry, when someone tells i.e. a sexist or racist joke and you point out to that person why it is wrong and they do not accept it, IMHO it is fair to say they lack a certain sensibility.

That's just how I see it John.


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ 14th December 2008 said:
> ...





oh man.. 


lets see.. 

lets decipher a bit

"Worst Score ever... John Williams' Paper Chase... ??!!!"

obviously a joke. how can anything be worst anything ever?! 
really.. specially from john williams.. a film that won 3 oscars! 
worst score ever might be one of mine in a student film using synths as synths (not sampler/intruments like) sounded like bad sfx cuts. 
but the title got your attention better than "the paper chase" which w/o a doubt no one
who has commented here has seen it. maybe you see it and agree with me and be amazed and courios to see whats up.





"man what a surprise."

shit i said surprise.. as supposed to .. man another bad score from JW. (which many 
say similar things to hanz zimmer stuff which i also like btw)






"this score is sooo bad... acid jazz and baroque and smooth jazzy all over. its like 6 years or more older than star wars so i am impressed on how far he went in such a short time or how bad the director was in choosing the music."


yes, imo this score is bad. not retracting from my opinion. it is bad u need to see it. 
choice of music and placement is bad. so maybe it was the director who pushed for something like this. maybe JW didnt know what the hell he was doing but it would be fukin awsome to know what happen. specialy for what i also stated in that 1st bad joke of a thread starter.. 
im frekin impressed on how freakin good he got. what the fuk happen to him to morph into such a great film composer. because he as many musicians went through the same music schools (not film music school) and he is a concert pianists but when did he say, man ithink im going to score this space movies like this or this thriller films like that, and why wasnt it doing it in the paper chase. what happen in that period of time that made him realize how to get that great sound. 





"check it out.. your face will be like :shock: "

as in shock.. because compared to his other movies this is nothing like it. but very far far from it. again u need to see it. 



but you are comparing it to a racist or sexist remark/?!!! 

so i guess i should have written something like : "that craker as craker just wrote some music like that because his a studpid man because all old white men are stupid and therfor his work sucks"

so there, is it better now. is it more clearly a post youi can atack without reading a bit more into it. becuase i guess we can have two threads going on at once.. one so you and others can atck it like your doing and the other of speculating and exchanging opinions on how one of the best film composers if not he best, came upon learning his craft. this movie shows that something is up with the music. other of his music around that time wasnt bad i think i havent heard those titles. so just curiosity on what happen with the paper chase or what happen n those years following that movie.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 14, 2008)

OK, I accept that your intention was not bad.

I have said this before but I will re-state it just to be clear.

It is one thing for a group of guys to get together and discuss scores and composers they like or do not like over dinner, drinks, etc. whether they are meg-successful or not. It is quite another to do so on a public forum.

To do the latter IN MY OPINION, is tacky, distasteful and and an unnecessary way to approach advancing the craft of writing music for film. I do not do so, would not do so, and I reserve the right to think poorly of those who do so.


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## JohnG (Dec 14, 2008)

spoken like a gentleman, Jay!


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> OK, I accept that your intention was not bad.
> 
> I have said this before but I will re-state it just to be clear.
> 
> ...




point taken and you have your opinion about it. 

i still believe the post its not a big deal and whatever way i started the post it would have been the same point. the score is not good and knowing why is not good i think would be a great thing to learn. as well as JW history in those times.


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## gsilbers (Dec 14, 2008)

JohnG @ Sun Dec 14 said:


> spoken like a gentleman, Jay!




:roll:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2008)

"I do not do so, would not do so, and I reserve the right to think poorly of those who do so."

You're sounding dangerously like O.J. Simpson, Jay. I'm worried about you...


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## midphase (Dec 15, 2008)

It' amazing how a light hearted half-joke topic posted on a slow day can turn into such a thread.

Come on guys...don't get your panties in a tizzy, I fully understood what he meant from the very beginning. He wasn't implying whatever apparently a lot of you read into it...he was obviously stating that the score to Paper Chase was not up to par with the rest of Williams' scores. For all we know, Williams fully agrees with him!

It just gives me a headache when such a mild post turns into a censorship dialogue...come on...let's all relax a bit!


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## Ashermusic (Dec 15, 2008)

midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> It' amazing how a light hearted half-joke topic posted on a slow day can turn into such a thread.
> 
> Come on guys...don't get your panties in a tizzy, I fully understood what he meant from the very beginning. He wasn't implying whatever apparently a lot of you read into it...he was obviously stating that the score to Paper Chase was not up to par with the rest of Williams' scores. For all we know, Williams fully agrees with him!
> 
> It just gives me a headache when such a mild post turns into a censorship dialogue...come on...let's all relax a bit!



First of all, who said anything about censoring him? Self-censorship is not the same thing. And not being a Simpsons watcher, I did not get the joke.

But again, I ask the question:

If someone criticizes a composer or specific score here in this public forum, whether we all agree, some agree, or no one agrees, what do we learn from this? How does this make us better composers? 

It's masturbatory, and while masturbation is fun, hopefully none of you do it in public. I just do not think that is what this forum should be about.

To no doubt everyone's great relief, I will now shut up

But when someone comes in here and singles out a specific composer or score for criticism, I am going to challenge them.


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 15, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > It' amazing how a light hearted half-joke topic posted on a slow day can turn into such a thread.
> ...




I'm sorry but I fail to see the connection between masturbation and a reasoned critique of a composer's oeuvre (if and when the latter takes place - certainly not in this thread so far). 

The trouble with such strategies (restricting possible topics for discussion, political correctness, verbicide etc) they are censorship by any other name and any other means. 

What I am against is vacuous, spurious and unsubstantiated value judgements. Let's have debate about the merits and demerits of a composer's work, but let's make it meaningful. 

Cheers


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## midphase (Dec 15, 2008)

"But when someone comes in here and singles out a specific composer or score for criticism, I am going to challenge them."

So according to you nobody should ever ever ever criticize anyone else's work for whatever reason?

I'm not sure I agree....for one I think most of us grow as artists through criticism....and while it's a bit late for Williams to change his was based on a score from over 30 years ago...I'm sure he's learned a thing or two from critics in the past!

Also, I don't think that criticism should only come from individuals with similar accomplishments, I don't think that scoring a major hollywood film is a requirement to having good taste and recognizing when shortcuts or lack of a clear vision occurred.

So IMHO, the correct response when not in agreement with a particular criticism is to present a counter-argument as to why such criticism is invalid. To present the poster with insider information that one might have about how a certain project unfolded for example, or to present a deeper score analysis where it is shown that the score in question is much better crafted than it might be apparent on the surface.

I think that type of discussion could be infinitely more useful not only to the original critic but to the community instead of the usual "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything." type of approach.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 15, 2008)

midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> "But when someone comes in here and singles out a specific composer or score for criticism, I am going to challenge them."
> 
> So according to you nobody should ever ever ever criticize anyone else's work for whatever reason?
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with most of your points except two:

1. I don't think a pubic forum where the person being discussed/criticized is not involved and therefore can explain their choices is a proper place to do it. Obviously, many here feel it is fine, but I do not. If we sit down to dinner and do so, to me that is a very different thing. And obviously, if one posts a cue and ask for comments, then it is fair game. 

2. I do not believe that everyone who posts on a forum should be granted instant peer status nor I do not think the right to have your opinion seriously considered is a birthright. I think it is earned. So while someone with little demonstrable accomplishment or skills may indeed be right on the money, I am not going to value their opinion very much and am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the composer who scored the film, until I see it for myself and decide otherwise. And if i.e Brad Fidel thinks it is terrific and I do not, I am going to wonder what I am missing, not what he is missing.

I take your opinions seriously because you have demonstrated that you can walk the walk and not just talk the talk. 

I guess that I have a particular charge on this issue because during my long time in L.A, I have seen that there is a tendency to build people up early and then tear them down later. Many people will rave to me about someone on the way up and once they make the tragic mistake of becoming too successful, everyone is all of a sudden knocking them. This was particularly true in the case of Jamie Horner, after "Titanic." All of sudden it was open season on him, and Jamie is a very good film composer.

Maybe I have lost perspective because of this. Perhaps I will seek out the opinions of some people whose accomplishments and skills I respect and give it some more thought 

OK, folks, I said I was going to stop, so please let me. If I have not convinced you by now, clearly I am not going to.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2008)

"And not being a Simpsons watcher, I did not get the joke"

hahaha

OJ Simsons!

(He said something like "I would not, did not, could not...." during the murder trial.)


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## Ashermusic (Dec 15, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> "And not being a Simpsons watcher, I did not get the joke"
> 
> hahaha
> 
> ...



Not YOUR joke, fool, the OP's !


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## Daryl (Dec 15, 2008)

It's easy to find the worst score ever. Just look for one "written" by the director. :shock: 

D


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 15, 2008)

Daryl @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> It's easy to find the worst score ever. Just look for one "written" by the director. :shock:
> 
> D



Stop masturbating in public Daryl. :lol:


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## midphase (Dec 15, 2008)

Can I make one last point in particular (and I don't disagree with what Jay just pointed out).

It is my opinion that criticism can actually help bring some of these guys down to a human size. To show that William can indeed create less than great music, shows that he too can make mistakes and hence is "one of us" and in reverse, I can be "one of him" too.

I have long objective to the type of idolatry that I hear coming from not only students, but also from many of my peers. I have no doubt that many around here could accomplish the same type of scores as Jame Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman and others (I'll refrain from naming Williams in that bunch since he has a very specific sound to him that is quite magic (why do I know that someone from up north will disagree?)).

Of course it would be wonderful to involve some of these guys into these discussions, and this forum is open to them to join in (who knows...maybe someone very very famous is already part of us under a mysterious alias (I'm looking at you Abe!)).

Anyway, I do find it encouraging what someone points out that not every single thing that comes out of a big name composer is perfect. It puts his abilities within my reach!


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## poseur (Dec 15, 2008)

{doubled post deleted}


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## poseur (Dec 15, 2008)

midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> It is my opinion that criticism can actually help bring some of these guys down to a human size.


understood, but.....
(i hope this doesn't appear as "attempted verbicide")
they are, imo & ime,
already "down to a human size".
there is a base error, imo, in presuming otherwise,
based on what one knows (or, doesn't) of their work.




midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> To show that William can indeed create less than great music, shows that he too can make mistakes and hence is "one of us" and in reverse, I can be "one of him" too.


of course he makes mistakes;
and, of course not everything he does is great
(except to those who become addicted to
hero-worshipping, for its own sake & questionable,
imo, "rewards").
¿no?



midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I have no doubt that many around here could accomplish the same type of scores as Jame Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman and others


i can't use that concept, myself;
"same type of scores" sets up the tone
for an imaginary competitive arena
within which there seems to be an implication
of the denial of each composer's right
to their own "voice" & perspective,
even given the crazy parameters within which
we work.

as well,
it seems to imply that we're all probably gonna work
from the same book,
with the same "types" of view & commentary,
re: story, character, picture, arc;
thank g-d! that there isn't a textbook-standard that needs
consultation on music's role in every scene/film/etc.....




midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Anyway, I do find it encouraging what someone points out that not every single thing that comes out of a big name composer is perfect. It puts his abilities within my reach!


i do think that criticism can be good, & valuable;
otoh, i think that self-criticism 
--- applied well --- 
has more potential for lasting positive function.
still, JW's abilities may indeed be within your reach.....
but, his aural "visions" are not.
luckily for you,
your own aural "vision" is not within his reach,
either.
methinks, anyways.

d


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## gsilbers (Dec 16, 2008)

midphase @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> Can I make one last point in particular (and I don't disagree with what Jay just pointed out).
> 
> It is my opinion that criticism can actually help bring some of these guys down to a human size. To show that William can indeed create less than great music, shows that he too can make mistakes and hence is "one of us" and in reverse, I can be "one of him" too.
> 
> ...




commenting on your last sentence...

my point would be that JW with that score is probalbly on our reach (still, its a complex score harmonically) but in general... he was THERE in time.. like we are now here at a similar level that he was back then. 
so when and how did JW learn so much in such a short time. 
scores he studied? 
persons who talked to him and tought him. 
the one i know is a quote he said that someone told him to create a melody and expand on it/develop it. 
but thats quite jump for me.. becuase i tried to develop melodies and nothing like it. duh. 
so thats it.. try to know to follow a similar road.


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## midphase (Dec 17, 2008)

While I disagree with the following a similar road...I believe everyone is different and has a different path to greatness, I do have to say that I am quite disappointed with the remarkable lack of documents on John Williams. AFAIK, there are no bio books, no extensive interviews (aside from the Indy and SW DVD extras), no documentaries, the man is quite a mystery compared to someone like Bernard Herrmann.


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 17, 2008)

Maybe he's an animatronic.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 17, 2008)

midphase @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> While I disagree with the following a similar road...I believe everyone is different and has a different path to greatness, I do have to say that I am quite disappointed with the remarkable lack of documents on John Williams. AFAIK, there are no bio books, no extensive interviews (aside from the Indy and SW DVD extras), no documentaries, the man is quite a mystery compared to someone like Bernard Herrmann.



There's a petition out there right now trying to get a documentary about him made.

These threads are worth it alone for the backwash..err I mean backlash, yeah backlash.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 17, 2008)

gsilbers "my point would be that JW with that score is probalbly on our reach (still, its a complex score harmonically) but in general... he was THERE in time.. like we are now here at a similar level that he was back then. so when and how did JW learn so much in such a
short time. scores he studied?"


That would mean we are all some of the most talented piano players to ever work in film and TV? JW was a very accomplished musician then. One year later he wrote the title to Towering Inferno which is really a landmark in film with in style, orchestration etc. No, he didn't suddenly become great within a year. His work years earlier on Lost in Space shows his enormous and developed talent even then. As I said, we donò°©   Ž»9°©   Ž»:°©   Ž»;°©   Ž»<°©   Ž»=°©   Ž»>°©   Ž»?°©   Ž»@°©   Ž»A°©   Ž»B°©   Ž»C°©   Ž»D°©   Ž»E°©   Ž»F°©   Ž»G°©   Ž»H°©   Ž»I°©   Ž»J°©   Ž»K°©   Ž»L°©   Ž»M°©   Ž»N°©   Ž»O°©   Ž»P°©   Ž»Q°©   Ž»R°©   Ž


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## cc64 (Dec 17, 2008)

Dave Connor @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> One year later he wrote the title to Towering Inferno which is really a landmark in film with in style, orchestration etc. No, he didn't suddenly become great within a year. His work years earlier on Lost in Space shows his enormous and developed talent even then. As I said, we don't know the how's and why's of Paper Chase. He's a pro and delivered the score that made the producers happy.



How many of you guys knew that John Williams wrote the theme and background music for Gilligan's Island?

CC64


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2008)

John Williams is a total incompetent. He has no musical skills, no idea what he's doing - it's pure luck that got him where he is. Or maybe he's just a good self-promoter.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2008)

Same with Jerry Goldsmith when he was alive.

And Bernard Herrmann...don't get me started on him. Any old fool can do that Psycho shower crap. It's in the East West library.


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## poseur (Dec 17, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> Same with Jerry Goldsmith when he was alive.
> 
> And Bernard Herrmann...don't get me started on him. Any old fool can do that Psycho shower crap. It's in the East West library.


ha!
didya ever that hear that old windbag, ennio morricone?
what a flippin' poser!
or leonard bernstein? damn,
you can just buy his EastWestsidestory Library.
poseurs, all!

d


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## cc64 (Dec 17, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> John Williams is a total incompetent. He has no musical skills, no idea what he's doing - it's pure luck that got him where he is. Or maybe he's just a good self-promoter.



Hi Nick, is your post in reaction to mine?

Just in case, i was actually making a point that Williams is such a talent and has been doing this for such a long time working on so many things that most people don't even suspect. Even writing light catchy tunes as Gilligan's theme...

Best,

CC64


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## Dave Connor (Dec 17, 2008)

Nick, thank you for articulating what so many of us have been trying to say. That list of hacks you posted proves anyone can make it in the silly Hollywood film game. And don't get me going on Alex North - I'm Sparticus!


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## gsilbers (Dec 17, 2008)

midphase @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> While I disagree with the following a similar road...I believe everyone is different and has a different path to greatness, I do have to say that I am quite disappointed with the remarkable lack of documents on John Williams. AFAIK, there are no bio books, no extensive interviews (aside from the Indy and SW DVD extras), no documentaries, the man is quite a mystery compared to someone like Bernard Herrmann.



actually after writing it i realize that i meant to say it like hhow a teacher would teach, by knowledge and experice from his own personal life and thaty way u dont re invent the wheel sort of deal. i agree we all have our own road.


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## gsilbers (Dec 17, 2008)

Dave Connor @ Wed Dec 17 said:


> gsilbers "my point would be that JW with that score is probalbly on our reach (still, its a complex score harmonically) but in general... he was THERE in time.. like we are now here at a similar level that he was back then. so when and how did JW learn so much in such a
> short time. scores he studied?"
> 
> 
> ...





i did notice that and was thinking then that the paper chase maybe just was somthing he got involved on and just followed whatver the director wanted who is also the writer btw, so maybe that had something to do with the choices. i know its the director the last word but still the compser can guide and helop the director, but this time can be something like the director jsut really wanted that vibe and type of music. for his creative intent. 
still , cool and interesting to know that story.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2008)

Alex North! You said it, Dave! What a wanker!



(@cc64: no no, not at all!)


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 18, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 18 said:


> Alex North! You said it, Dave! What a wanker!
> 
> 
> 
> (@cc64: no no, not at all!)




Does Alex North criticise other film composers on forums?


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## Dave Connor (Dec 18, 2008)

Rousseau: Does Alex North criticise other film composers on forums?

Alex went on to his reward a number of years ago.

Four of the greatest film composers of all time savaged James Horner's score to Titanic in the Calendar section of the LA Times before the Oscars that year. JG also criticized Horner's notorious lifting of material (which I read online) so there's doesn't seem to be any reluctance with those guys to speak their mind.
Surely critics (most of who can't play a note) are not the only one's allowed free speech in artistic matters.


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## CFDG (Dec 18, 2008)

Daryl @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> It's easy to find the worst score ever. Just look for one "written" by the director. :shock:
> 
> D


"The Others", Alejandro Amenábar. I found this one quite beautiful.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2008)

'Does Alex North criticise other film composers on forums?"

No, but he really has it in for EastWest.


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 19, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Dec 19 said:


> 'Does Alex North criticise other film composers on forums?"
> 
> No, but he really has it in for EastWest.



So is he a wanker or not? 0oD


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