# What just happened in France?



## AC986 (Mar 31, 2014)

Missed it and can't get to a TV.


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## jleckie (Mar 31, 2014)

http://m.thelocal.fr/20140331/parents-battle-sncf-over-music-fine (http://m.thelocal.fr/20140331/parents-b ... music-fine)


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## José Herring (Mar 31, 2014)

The far right nut cakes won a victory of the far left nut bags. Winning 11 local municipalities which is about 1200 government elected positions, and now making up a significant portion of the new government.

The communist Hollande, is extremely unpopular, hasn't delivered on any promise he made. Taxing the rich at levels reminiscent of the Charles DeGaulle days. So of course, industry is folding, unemployment at double digits and France is now rife for political upheaval. Anti-immigrant and anti-semetic fervor is on the rise, and if the far right nut cakes gain any more power, things will get very bad very quickly.


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## TGV (Mar 31, 2014)

Hollande is not a communist, he's a social-democrat.


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## handz (Mar 31, 2014)

TGV @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> Hollande is not a communist, he's a social-democrat.



France is for a long time biggest communism regime in the Europe, even they call it "Social-Democracy" . We have them here too, and it is communism, just looking more "cool"


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## AC986 (Mar 31, 2014)

jleckie @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> http://m.thelocal.fr/20140331/parents-battle-sncf-over-music-fine



Oh that's very good! :lol:


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## choc0thrax (Mar 31, 2014)

Why would France be in the news? Did they find the 370 wreckage there?


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## AC986 (Mar 31, 2014)

handz @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> TGV @ Mon Mar 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Hollande is not a communist, he's a social-democrat.
> ...



I've made it to a TV.

Actually I love France. It's a wonderful country and I always feel comfortable there.

In terms of whether leaders are far right or left.....

I think Hollande is an even bigger c**t than Cameron is. And he's a lot shorter too. 

The end if the Eurozone is looming. Make no mistake about it. o=<


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## jamwerks (Mar 31, 2014)

handz @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> France is for a long time biggest communism regime in the Europe, even they call it "Social-Democracy"


You just won the prize for the most bull-shit in a two line post! Hope you know more about music than you do about history!


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## José Herring (Mar 31, 2014)

jamwerks @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> handz @ Mon Mar 31 said:
> 
> 
> > France is for a long time biggest communism regime in the Europe, even they call it "Social-Democracy"
> ...



He's communist. No mistake there. Karl Marx said that Socialism was the lower stage of communism. If socialism is the lower stage then Hollande's form of government is the middle stage. Or, so close to communism that it's hard to tell them apart. And, his government is being overthrown, just as all communist governments get overthrow. Why people even vote people like this in is a wonder.

France is a wonderful country. Too bad that their every political option right now is just horrendous.


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## handz (Mar 31, 2014)

jamwerks @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> handz @ Mon Mar 31 said:
> 
> 
> > France is for a long time biggest communism regime in the Europe, even they call it "Social-Democracy"
> ...



no, I did not, you need to read about what is happening in France, what Hollande is doing and maybe read about what socialism is. 

France, as much as it is beautiful country with nice history it have strong working class that love to make strikes often because they want more money and love to vote Hollande because he is taking money from those "evil" succesful people for "good" of the poor. I do not wonder why those people are leaving or thinking about leaving France a lot lately. 75% Tax just because you are being succesful in what you do? Screw those id***s! We had there communism / socialism for a long time - it is worst thing that can happen to people that are really wanna do something.


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 31, 2014)

Sometimes, things are simple.

Test: Can people own property in France?
Answer: Yes.
Conclusion: France is not a communist country.


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## germancomponist (Mar 31, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> Sometimes, things are simple.
> 
> Test: Can people own property in France?
> Answer: Yes.
> Conclusion: France is not a communist country.



Can you tell me where there is a communist country? I think there is not only one!

Those who call themselves communist countries aren't..... . 

I do not know one communist country. You?


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## AC986 (Mar 31, 2014)

Gunther! 

How did your strafing mission go!

France's 6 the biggest city is......London.

Between 300000 to 400000 French citizens now live in London.


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## markwind (Mar 31, 2014)

jamwerks @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> handz @ Mon Mar 31 said:
> 
> 
> > France is for a long time biggest communism regime in the Europe, even they call it "Social-Democracy"
> ...



I gotta +1 this.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 31, 2014)

handz @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> TGV @ Mon Mar 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Hollande is not a communist, he's a social-democrat.
> ...



Sorry dudes, but you are way off base here.
Holland is a total failure, but it is socialism there. By no means communism.
Trust me on this one.
It is also dysfunctional and due to collapse sooner or later because of its way too permissive state-run social benefits that everybody abuses, including illegal immigrants.
Constant strikes, despite the fact that the French are among the most privileged people when it comes to benefits, people collecting unemployment benefits and working under the table...and so on and so forth.
The huge deficit created by the social network is swept under the rug by each administration that comes to power, but it is becoming harder and harder to hide it.

But when it comes to live there, it certainly is more humane than life in the US. People do have time to enjoy life a bit, and work is not everything.

I wish I lived in a place in the middle. Canada would be it, if it were not for the winters... :mrgreen:


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## Hannes_F (Mar 31, 2014)

Isn't there any any french contributor here? Please inform us about what really happens because I feel everbody else is more or less guessing. Romain?


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## José Herring (Mar 31, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> Sometimes, things are simple.
> 
> Test: Can people own property in France?
> Answer: Yes.
> Conclusion: France is not a communist country.



The father of communism states specifically that socialism is a lower stage of communism, so it's not that simple.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 31, 2014)

What's with all the hate towards communists? It's not like they have a monopoly on stupidity. In fact, I've met a number of brilliant, sweet commies. Many great artists of the 20th were pink. Finally, I suspect many of us would be if this was the 30s or 40s. If Urs (Mr Zebra/DIVA) got wind of this post, the former East Berliner would smack a few heads with chuck-norris-style round kicks!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 31, 2014)

Also, as a half-frenchie, I can vouch for the fact that the French are arrogant, concerned mostly with their self-interest, politically lazy, easily manipulated by media.
Sort of like Americans.
And Germans. And Canadians.
And The Brits, Dutch, Italians, Chinese, Mexicans, Lebanese, Australians, Japanese, Jamaicans, etc, etc, etc.


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## Musicologo (Mar 31, 2014)

The concepts of right-left regarding american perspective and european perspective are skewed and distorted due to historical reasons.

in America standards they have democrat as left wing party and republican as right wing party.

Well, for european standards, republicans are far-right (tea party would be considered extreme-right wing) and democrats are center.

In Europe Hollande is considered moderate left wing. Socialism is center-left.
Green Party and Communist are left.
Radical and Anarchist would be extreme-left (like syrisa in Greece or Left Bloc in Portugal). 

There is no equivalent to these "left parties" in America, that is why the view is skewed.

In Europe usually the Socialist parties are considered moderate-left and Center left are most praised among intellectuals and artists and working class. They have the kind of support equivalent to what democrats have in America. So hollande is not seen as communism or "atrocious" at ALL.

A genuine "green party" or "communist party" is usually supported by only 5-15% of the population, and usually are among the more radical artists and hippies. I guess that would be the equivalent of the hipster community in Austin, who support Green that has not seat in parliament at all?...

On the other hand, what happened in France would be the equivalent now of the democrats losing the elections, the republicans winning most places, and a "tea party" party win some seats.

I might just add the relevant information regarding this historical issue:

Wellfare state and keynesian politics were the "base" for politics in western Europe during the 50-90's. And they were praised and considered "moderate left wing".

Even traditional center-right parties in Europe defend Wellfare state. Hence that is the "center".

In America it seems wellfare state and keynesian politics are seen as "communist" or "left wing" and neo-liberalism as "center".

Well, neo-liberalism in Europe would be deep right. And that is the main difference.
Clash of ideologies and perspectives.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 31, 2014)

Sane people in America see it that way too, Musicologo. Our view isn't skewed at all - we know that the country has been dragged way, way over to the right. Or I should say flushed way down to the right.

Jose, I'm sorry, but what you're saying is just nuts. We've had 150 years of history since Karl Marx. Where are you hearing that crazy stuff?


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## José Herring (Mar 31, 2014)

I read books. Socialism is described very well by Karl Marx. Check it out. And 150 years is nothing where a philosophy is concerned. A belief can be in effect for thousands of years. 

I repeat it til the day I die. Socialism is just a soft form of communism were the people give away only some of their control to the state.

And Hollande is bad news. Horrible leader following an outdated proven to not work philosophy. 

Venezuela another fine example of "socialism" at it's finest.


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## TGV (Apr 1, 2014)

Jose, if I I quote some source that vaguely relates your points of view and e.g. nazism, would that convince you you are one? I suppose not. Communism is a well-defined concept. Look it up, I've got a link for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism. Communism explicitly centralizes ownership of capital, in particular production means. That is not part of the PS' program, so they cannot be called communists.

For the rest, you just seem to have a problem with dictatorship. Many countries where the regime called itself communist (North Korea is a remaining one, Günther) were just dictatorships.


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## AC986 (Apr 1, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> I repeat it til the day I die. Socialism is just a soft form of communism were the people give away only some of their control to the state.



It's certainly true that for years, people have become elected under a Labour or Socialist
banner when in fact they are closet communists. Happens here all the time. But it's the same with right wing Tory's.
In between here, you have Liberals, but in fact most of them are more left wing than Socialists. Or they've escaped from high risk mental institutions for the politically insane.
Oh yes, we have them but they're in secret locations. {insert tongue ion cheek emoticon here]



josejherring @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> And Hollande is bad news. Horrible leader following an outdated proven to not work philosophy.



And he's very short. What do good looking woman see in that guy? :?

Anyway. Fuck this. I'm off to play golf for the county and it's a nice day for a change.


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## Hannes_F (Apr 1, 2014)

@Musicologo
Well explained imo. This is one of the great things happening in this forum - the 'translation' of views.

Still no genuinely french comment in this thread, just saying.

EDIT In regards to communism vs. socialism I think communism in its purest form is what can ultimately save humanity . . . if it overcomes the materialistic heritage initially given by Karl Marx (yes I have read him). The basic idea is to work for the whole, with other words in an altruistic way.

However it is a fact to deal with (and that is what Karl Marx underestimated) that at the present state 99.9 % of humans are not yet able to live real (ideal) communism, and that can not be ignored. As a consequence those systems that call themselves communist are mostly dictatorships of a relatively small class of military like organisations, so basically they are sailing under a false flag. It is fully understandable that those that lived under such a system refuse it because they experienced that it tends to make people inactive, corrupt etc.

Countries like Germany (there I am sure) and France (this is what I have learned) are dedicated to a _social _market economy by constitution. This tries to combine _per design_ the care for the community (note the kinship of community with commun-ism) with the individual achievement principle. It is _not _ intended to be a totally free market (some think it is but it was never intended to be), and also _not _intended to be a state-cares-for all system. 

The main difference between Germany and France is that France is more centralistic because Paris dominates the other parts of the country much more than Berlin can dominate the relatively strong other centres. But other than that the main principle of constitution is to mature the citizens into taking responsibility for the whole, and giving them some individual stimulus for effort along that way as long as this is still needed. It is save to say that our political systems as such would not exist without the ideas of Karl Marx but they try to have the citizens move _themselves _towards responsibility and maturity, partly with stimulation, partly based on reason.


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## handz (Apr 1, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> Sometimes, things are simple.
> 
> Test: Can people own property in France?
> Answer: Yes.
> Conclusion: France is not a communist country.



oh wow wow wow, we had communism in my country and people of course could have own property. Original "hardcore" communism wasnt practically anywhere, but that "lightweight" socialist - communism is evil anyway.


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## handz (Apr 1, 2014)

Just for the info, Communism regime killed more people in history than Nacism. 

Communist idea is reign of the poor or lets say, reign of the non so inteligent on the expense of the intelligent, skilled people. Of course it is getting lot of fans as majority of people are not so skilled or good in something, they are workers and cant do on their own or start some business. It always was like that. But this is why communism / socialims cant never work in long perspective. 

And of coure EU becomming so social it is almost communism nowdays sadly (and who is surprisedm when in highest post of EU are former communists..)


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## Hannes_F (Apr 1, 2014)

@ handz
No, you did not have communism in your country. There have only been very few places in the world so far where real communism took place, perhaps in some red indian tribes, early israeli kibbuzim or such, I don't know. 

What you had was the dictatorship of a military like organisation that (mis-)used the name of communism as a camouflage in order to keep the citizens working for them and retain their power, and that is something entirely different. It is actually quite the opposite of communism because it means a small caste that more or less absolutely reigns the whole country with a sort of deliberate psychological confusion. See also my other post that I just edited before I could see your posts.


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## SergeD (Apr 1, 2014)

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."

John Kenneth Galbraith


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## snowleopard (Apr 1, 2014)

Excellent post by Musicologo, for explaining the differnces in terminology and perception between Europe and the US. Nick is also correct in that there are a LOT of people in the US who see it that way too. And I'd say a good 30% of the country are center-left. But they tend to be quiet, thoughtful, and don't have the money to buy politicians like the extreme right does. So their voice rarely gets heard in the masses.

Also great post by Hannes. If anyone has read, or even read some of, Das Kapital, it is readily apparent that what Marx was seeing, and advocating, isn't what became termed "communist" in the 20th century. One has to completely remove the western interpretation of the word communist to comprenend this. 

As to true communism being the ultimate society, I think the only way that's going to happen is if we reach Star Trek like levels. Where things like replicators, transporters, tricorders, etc. make the needs of survival, and striving to achieve ownership of resources, completely moot. Unfortunately, I think it would be more likely the United States will go through a phase of Elysium-like world, before that takes fruition.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 1, 2014)

Thass right.

And of course Hannes is right. No ideology works, Communism included. I think it's almost safe to say after a 45-year Cold War experiment that short of the kibbutzes, the problem with Communism is that relies on totalitarian force to remain in place. And duh you need a system of reward if you want a productive economy. And duh you need both market forces and central planning.

But we're not talking about pure ideology here, and that's why Jose is an extremely silly man and will continue to be until the day he dies - possibly even after that. 

In the real world we have mixed economies, and we have debates over where the very wavy line is drawn. Some things are socialized and others aren't.

Did I mention that ideology doesn't work when applied to real countries?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 1, 2014)

The idea that someone who studies for years and works hard should not profit over someone who works hard but does not have to study much to do his job but works hard is immoral IMHO .


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## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2014)

snowleopard @ Tue Apr 01 said:


> Also great post by Hannes. If anyone has read, or even read some of, Das Kapital, it is readily apparent that what Marx was seeing, and advocating, isn't what became termed "communist" in the 20th century. One has to completely remove the western interpretation of the word communist to comprenend this.



+1


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## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2014)

Henry Ford: 

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 1, 2014)

Except the banking system is now global.


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## Jaap (Apr 1, 2014)

Great post by Musicologo! I would like add a small nuance in the "green parties". I think for example Germany and The Netherlands they are not really radical anymore and are in fact quite constructive and more leaning towards center-left with a bit more focus on dealing with climate control and the bio-industry, but the other parts of their programs are very similar to other socialistic parties.

For me as socialist it is very hard to understand the mindset from American citizens, because I understand for a part that you want to have an amount of certain control in your life, but my point of view from as Dutch citizen is different.

I don't feel my government is interfering too much in my personal life and the benefits from a social system are very good in my opinion. The fact that every has a right on medical threathment, the right to follow education, a sort of social fallback if you end up temporary in financial problems due to being fired or even private issues is great (of course it can always better and there are certain flawys) makes that I am happy with how it works.

The social system in the Netherlands is changing though, but still it is very social and I have lived for a few years in France as well and the Netherlands was on certain points much more socialistic then France and hence we would qualify then also to be communists as some describe it.

To be honest I don't care. I love to add my 2 cents to society so that everybody can have a save life, where you don't have to fear that if you loose your job that you end up on the streets. That we have system that takes care of the elder (not enough in my opinion) etc etc. There are always a few who abuse the system, but should we change it so that 95% suffer from the 5% that abuse it? No of course not 
Call it whatever you want, I am proud on it and to be honest I want much more socialism in my country. 

There where times that I made good money and I had to pay 52% of my income to the taxes and ofcourse I nagged about it at some times, but do I think it needs to change? No, in the end I had more then enough, far more then I needed as human being. Let the strong shoulders carry, because one day something might happen and you actually might need a strong shoulder to lean on and then a system like this is great.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 1, 2014)

Sorry to be nasty, but I'm totally astonished that educated people are arguing about basic, basic ideology. I'm not kidding - we had deeper discussions in jr. high school!

Not à propos that:



> For me as socialist it is very hard to understand the mindset from American citizens



For me as an American citizen it's hard for me to understand the mindset of many American citizens.

For example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/us/po ... et.html?hp

“This budget stops spending money we don’t have,” writes Mr. Ryan, the Republican party’s vice-presidential nominee in 2012 and a possible presidential contender in 2016. “A balanced budget will foster a healthier economy and help create jobs. This will ensure the next generation inherits a stronger, more prosperous America.”

I don't care that this is just for show. This man is the douchebag to end all douching.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

I sort of like Ryan, because complete political bullshit though his budget may be, at least-there it IS. Readable, definable-not the usual moving target, repeal and replace game (with no plan) that the right usually plays. The man wants to cut services for the poor and elderly and spend more money on post-WW2 armament. There he is, standing right in front of us liberals-the embodiment of far right evil, and he put it ON PAPER (well, you know what I mean).

I read the former "Path to Prosperity", and I'll read this one. It really made things clear to me, the division of thought in this country, and it clarified my thinking as well as strengthened my resolve. I see it all as a Good Thing.

Nick is right-purist political ideologies and systems never work. Humans just aren't made that way.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 01 said:


> The idea that someone who studies for years and works hard should not profit over someone who works hard but does not have to study much to do his job but works hard is immoral IMHO .



Would that be traditional studying or may I, as an autodidact, profit from my labors as much as you profit from yours, though I did not do it in traditional ways? Without it being immoral, I mean.


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## AC986 (Apr 2, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 01 said:


> I don't care that this is just for show. This man is the douchebag to end all douching.



But is he tall? If he's tall, he gets my vote.

Wait! I can't vote. I'm not an American citizen. But I still claim a moral victory if the guy turns out to be tall.


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## AC986 (Apr 2, 2014)

And that's wearing normal shoes btw. Otherwise it's cheating and the guy would then indeed be a douchebag.


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## AC986 (Apr 2, 2014)

I've had it with short people.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Tue Apr 01 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 01 said:
> 
> 
> > The idea that someone who studies for years and works hard should not profit over someone who works hard but does not have to study much to do his job but works hard is immoral IMHO .
> ...



Is your doctor or dentist an autodidact?


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Apr 01 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 01 said:
> ...



No, I am. What was the subject of your plumber's doctoral dissertation?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 02 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Tue Apr 01 said:
> ...



The only way a plumber gets really good is years of on the job training or usually apprenticeship. If he can demonstrate that he is good, he deserves to be paid more than one who only works hard. 

And yes, everyone who can afford it should be able to own what he/she desires and works hard for and can afford to own.


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## Musicologo (Apr 2, 2014)

Someone should read more about "meritocracy" and the fallacy behind it. Especially the "criticism" part.
Perhaps even "Social darwinism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

It might shed light on why the idea that "work hard" and "earn degree", etc, might not be "entitlements" and "fairness" per se. It depends too much on luck and starting conditions. 

We need to have a balance otherwise we'll all end up like Kevin O'leary praising the achievements of the 1%.


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## snowleopard (Apr 2, 2014)

Well, the US has certainly become a plutocracy. The concept of "working hard" leaves too much undefinied for me to further comment on EW's statement. 

While I somewhat agree with NYC Composer, I still wonder if Paul Ryan is being honest. I think at his core, and same with most conservatives, is that they would like to see all social services, and most regulations eliminated on a federal level. So until they honestly start admitting they’d like to see Medicare & Medicaid phased out, all federal education funding eliminated, the SEC, HHS and OSHA eliminated, and departments like the NTSB, NOAA, National Parks, etc. privatized, I won’t believe them. 

Of course otherwise his ideas tend to be insane. The coupling of supply-side economics, austerity, and massive military buildup beyond any sense of necessity, is complete madness. I can’t even spend the mental energy explaining why.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

Life is not fair and we cannot make it so. But yes, the way things are heading there will be no more middle class in Capitalist based countries and we need a new paradigm. But it certainly is not Communism.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

snowleopard @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> While I somewhat agree with NYC Composer, I still wonder if Ryan is being honest. I thin
> 
> Of course otherwise his ideas tend to be insane. The coupling of supply-side economics, austerity, and massive military buildup beyond any sense of necessity, is complete madness. I can’t even spend the mental energy explaining why.



Yep. "trickle down" economics is one of the great lies. It more like "piss down upon."


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## snowleopard (Apr 2, 2014)

I like the way Pope Francis put it. 

"The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefitting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger."


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

snowleopard @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> I like the way Pope Francis put it.
> 
> "The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefitting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger."



Just great!


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## gsilbers (Apr 2, 2014)

just see my flag. 
i can say that socialism defenitly ruiened my country. the idea of giving poor a chance and its only rich people oposing is bs. 

as an old man told me: 

socialism is a beutiful idea, but to do it someone needs to take control, which then turns into dicatorship. 

turns out he was right. my country went to ruins because the poeple trying to make socialism happened just took all the money and control. those in power got greedy and now have huge amount of money in their foriegn bank accounts and the poor, even though have risen a little economically , it was mainly done by means of handouts instead of decent structrual reform. that way they will keep voting for the same poeple with the same lies they feed, which is something it was being doe ever 4 years by the old regine anyways who at least figured out how to provide at least toilet paper and milk on shelves. 

maybe socialism is for the rich, 1st world countries or their definition is different but being taxed a bit more and providing good health care and other social safty nets is to me a good thing. but socialism in third world country just equals to something close to dictratorships.

to me comunism and socialism is very well described in one episode of 3rd rock of the sun "red, white and dick"


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2014)

> Is your doctor or dentist an autodidact?



I don't know, but I do know that your doctor and dentist friends are both C U Next Tuesdays for being Republicans. They're probably nice guys, but their shitty opinions are still unworthy of respect.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Apr 02 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 02 said:
> ...



So its ok that I've made good money in the music business with very little formal training? I just want to be sure I don't have to give the money back because I broke the rules inherent in your worldview


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

No Larry, you are fine because you are skilled. What I DON"T want here is an economic system that mandates you cannot make more money and own more things than a 20 year old Garage Band user with little or no skills.

Oh wait a minute, we pretty much already have that, right?


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> No Larry, you are fine because you are skilled. What I DON"T want here is an economic system that mandates you cannot make more money and own more things than a 20 year old Garage Band user with little or no skills.
> 
> Oh wait a minute, we pretty much already have that, right?



Here in America, Jay?? Ummm...seen the steady expansion of the income gap?? I don't think I'll cry for the wealthy, Argentina!

(Or were we talking about France?)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2014)

I don't know how you create an economic system to prevent that.

What we can do is spread ownership of the things that make money, so we have an economy that can be sustained. If it's true that 47% of current employment is at risk of being replaced by machines in the next 20 years - a whole subject I can blather on about, having just researched it for a story pitch - then we have two choices: 1. an easy life because the machines are doing the work for us; 2. mass unemployment with a few rich owners of the machines.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

Either way, my only point in the discussion was/is that Communism is not a solution.


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## gsilbers (Apr 2, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> I don't know how you create an economic system to prevent that.
> 
> What we can do is spread ownership of the things that make money, so we have an economy that can be sustained. If it's true that 47% of current employment is at risk of being replaced by machines in the next 20 years - a whole subject I can blather on about, having just researched it for a story pitch - then we have two choices: 1. an easy life because the machines are doing the work for us; 2. mass unemployment with a few rich owners of the machines.



or somewhere in the middle were we do not need low income market cashiers but there'll be more midium level engineers building and supporting the machines being used for automatic checkouts. once the machines are installed, newer models will come out... and like current iphones, repplaced every year or two.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Either way, my only point in the discussion was/is that Communism is not a solution.



Let's make a different word- Communalism. It's a system where people are able to do as well as they are able through their skills, but they naturally funnel back into society the amount over which they can live a perfectly lavish lifestyle. Voluntarily. Something tells me that it will take some years for that sort of enlightenment and social evolution.

Oh, and when they die, 90% of their money goes back into the pool. Let the next generation ALSO do as well as they can using their skills- not the unearned bounty from work they never did and skills they never acquired. The whole Horatio Alger myth/ pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is mostly a construct that makes for good entertainment. In America with, hard work it is certainly possible to pull yourself and your family out of poverty, but joining the ranks of the elite, i.e. old inherited money is extremely unlikely. The pattern of the huge wealth gap in America is self perpetuating via inheritance.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

snowleopard @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Well, the US has certainly become a plutocracy. The concept of "working hard" leaves too much undefinied for me to further comment on EW's statement.
> 
> While I somewhat agree with NYC Composer, I still wonder if Paul Ryan is being honest. I think at his core, and same with most conservatives, is that they would like to see all social services, and most regulations eliminated on a federal level. So until they honestly start admitting they’d like to see Medicare & Medicaid phased out, all federal education funding eliminated, the SEC, HHS and OSHA eliminated, and departments like the NTSB, NOAA, National Parks, etc. privatized, I won’t believe them.
> 
> Of course otherwise his ideas tend to be insane. The coupling of supply-side economics, austerity, and massive military buildup beyond any sense of necessity, is complete madness. I can’t even spend the mental energy explaining why.



SL,I agree with everything you said here- my point was more about slippery moving targets and a look under Republican skirts. Of course you are correct, it's just a glimpse. The open beaver shot would entail taking back women's right to vote, re-instituting slavery (or at least getting rid of those pesky civil rights) and bringing this country back to the way it was originally conceived- a place where rich white male landowners could prosper.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2014)

> Either way, my only point in the discussion was/is that Communism is not a solution



Really? Are you sure about that, Jay?

Isn't the jury still out?


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## snowleopard (Apr 2, 2014)

Thanks for clarifying NYC Composer. 

Regarding the whole "communism" thing, at the sake of repeating myself, I think people really need to read up on what communisim is/was proported to be. One can read the Communist Manifesto, but I think reading Marx much more refined Das Kapital will open anyone's eyes who reads it. What 99% of us think what it is, and perpetuate what it is, and what he actually writes about and advocates are completely different things. Marx writings are eye opening, especially considering the system we have now in the US. 

Just as people equate Marx with Stalin (completley different people, mindsets, everything), people also equate communisim with the totalitarian dictatorship that the Soviet Union and various other eastern bloc nations became. 

Having said all that, I don't think true communism is workable in our world. At least not yet. We're going to have to reach a technological point where things like renewable energy and food production are abundant and very easily and cheaply produced. Land ownership is not of much value as little to no profit could be made from it. And yes, roborts do a fair deal of the work. This may happen in the next 20-50 years, breakthroughs like nuclear fusion or superconductivity would precipitate huge leaps for example. But the sad part is that because the pollitical systems are so rigged, so plutocratic, that what I don't see is any sort of utopian communist society taking form. What I instead see is something akin to the film Elysium, where a very elite faction of society has access to the technology making them whatever they want, keeping them healthy, producing them endless energy. And a defense system keeping them safe from the millions of people living in squalor.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2014)

Isn't that essentially what we have now?


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2014)

Another question: For what do we live here? To make money?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> > Either way, my only point in the discussion was/is that Communism is not a solution
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No it is not. Russia tried it and failed and they are now for all practical purposes a dictatorship and a third rate economic power.. China tried it and failed and they are now almost as capitalistic as the US, except they don't allow dissent.

There is virtually no place on earth where a Communist economic system that also allows people substantial individual freedom has succeeded.


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2014)

Jay, Russia never tried it! Read the history books!


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

snowleopard @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Thanks for clarifying NYC Composer.
> 
> Regarding the whole "communism" thing, at the sake of repeating myself, I think people really need to read up on what communisim is/was proported to be. One can read the Communist Manifesto, but I think reading Marx much more refined Das Kapital will open anyone's eyes who reads it. What 99% of us think what it is, and perpetuate what it is, and what he actually writes about and advocates are completely different things. Marx writings are eye opening, especially considering the system we have now in the US.
> 
> ...



The problem is that no Communist nation ever strictly followed Marxist principals without becoming taken over by dictatorships. If defies human nature, which is to consider oneself first and be jealous of those who have more.

Maybe someday we will see human beings evolve, if you consider it that, to be able to practice it but if anything I think people are now more selfish and envious than ever.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

germancomponist @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Jay, Russia never tried it! Read the history books!



You are telling me that when Lenin and the Bolsheviks ran Russia it was not trying to be a Communist country?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2014)

Jay. I'm being sarcastic.

Seriously, how can you still be debating Communism? You sound like Dennis Praeger, only not a dick.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2014)

Well, maybe...


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## AC986 (Apr 2, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Isn't that essentially what we have now?



Yes.

Why did Hollande get hammered in the recent French local elections?

Why did Nick Clegg get butt fucked on national TV by Nigel Farage about an hour ago?

:wink:


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 2, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Jay. I'm being sarcastic.
> 
> Seriously, how can you still be debating Communism? You sound like Dennis Praeger, only not a dick.



OK, I am not the brightest crayon in the Crayola box


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## José Herring (Apr 2, 2014)

gsilbers @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> as an old man told me:
> 
> socialism is a beutiful idea, but to do it someone needs to take control, which then turns into dicatorship.
> 
> ...



And that's what socialism is. In America it gets equated with "social programs". It isn't. And the people that espouse socialistic principles know exactly what it is. They sell it to the educated as "helping the poor", but all it really does is rob the wealthy, and the poor see very little as the bureaucracy soaks up the increased taxes. Inflation settles in and pretty soon the country is insolvent, people are rioting and governments are being overthrown.

And it's not a question of one vs. the other. Capitalism is even more brutal and the collapse even more catastrophic.

We need to move beyond this leftist, rightist political thinking and just realize that the last thing the world needs is an "...ism" as a governing and financial policy.

What I'd like to see in America is a higher minimum wage, and strict government regulations, such as requiring all business that make over a certain amount to have a minimum number of employees. Caps on CEO salaries based and bonuses based on performance but not to exceed a certain amount in ration to profits.

Systems like this are working famously in the auto market as a condition of taking a government bailout required that they agree to certain regulations. The auto industry now is aboomin' with America cars better than ever, profit at record highs and lots of people with jobs, pensions and retirements. 

Why the model that has been so successful in rescuing and making solvent the auto industry can't then be adopted for all businesses and turned into law perplexes me.

Then the American tax code can be used to penalize the non-compliant fat cat, instead of penalizing the hard working middle class.

I know I'm idealistic, but I'm so sick of seeing every country on earth shattered into economic ruin whether it be capitalism or socialism or communism. They've all failed.

And Germany's brand of "social whatever" will fail again soon too. We'll be talking about that next year. :lol:


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## AC986 (Apr 3, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> And Germany's brand of "social whatever" will fail again soon too. We'll be talking about that next year. :lol:



Farage said last night that if they don't democratically put an end to the EU in an orderly and friendly way fairly soon, eventually it will end and end badly. And he's dead right. Most people here already openly or secretly back Marine Le Pen and watch with great interest on how things unfold (or unravel) in France.

The last thing mainland Europe want, and indeed minorities in this country need, is for the the EU to end badly. Because once the English get it into their heads that someone, somewhere is taking the piss, watch out. 

Nobody listens to what the BBC says anymore. They have learnt, or are beginning to learn that the BBC agenda cannot go on and pretty soon, the right wing conservative element, should they win the next election, will shove a large pole up the BBC's ass.
And it's also worth remembering that a great deal more people in this country read the Financial Times than they do The Guardian.


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## lucky909091 (Apr 4, 2014)

What an unbelievable rubbish I must read here about Karl Marx and "The Capital"....
i am glad this is a composers forum and not a political discussion network.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 4, 2014)

lucky909091 @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> What an unbelievable rubbish I must read here about Karl Marx and "The Capital"....
> i am glad this is a composers forum and not a political discussion network.



Someone forced you to read this thread?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 4, 2014)

Well, I said the same thing...only arguing about politics is much more interesting than samples.


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## José Herring (Apr 4, 2014)

lucky909091 @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> What an unbelievable rubbish I must read here about Karl Marx and "The Capital"....
> i am glad this is a composers forum and not a political discussion network.



A true believer Comrade. Never give up hope.


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## AC986 (Apr 5, 2014)

lucky909091 @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> about Karl Marx



I sat on his head once and smoked a cigarette.


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## Musicologo (Apr 13, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/a ... as-piketty

THIS! This is what really sums up the clash, really.


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