# Apple Music announces Spatial Audio with Dolby Atmos; will bring Lossless Audio to entire catalog



## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2021)

Apple Music announces Spatial Audio with Dolby Atmos; will bring Lossless Audio to entire catalog​The next generation of sound on Apple Music is coming to subscribers June 2021 at no additional cost.









Apple Music announces Spatial Audio and Lossless Audio


The next generation of sound on Apple Music is coming to subscribers June 2021 at no additional cost.



www.apple.com





So, How does this impact the way we mix, export music in our DAWs ?


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## davidson (Jun 10, 2021)

Lol, I'm going to guess that maybe 0.001% of apple music listeners do so on a dolby atmos system 

Nice that they're moving to lossless though.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jun 10, 2021)

davidson said:


> Lol, I'm going to guess that maybe 0.001% of apple music listeners do so on a dolby atmos system




…kinda like Philips making “hi fi” stereos that could play “Compact Discs” in the 80s. 😉


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 10, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Apple Music announces Spatial Audio with Dolby Atmos; will bring Lossless Audio to entire catalog​The next generation of sound on Apple Music is coming to subscribers June 2021 at no additional cost.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I saw an article somewhere that logic will have spatial audio options when exporting, I’ll try find it









Logic Pro will get immersive audio tools later this year for Spatial Audio mixes


Apple has announced that it will be adding immersive music authoring tools to an upcoming version of Logic Pro later this year.




www.musictech.net


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## Rctec (Jun 10, 2021)

I just mixed a soundtrack album in Dolby Atmos for head-phones. It started off by being given a pair of the new Apple Max Pro headphones before they became available (don’t ask!) and not even knowing they where Dolby Atmos designed. They where so extraordinary, that we remixed the soundtrack to be truly immersive.
i have always written in 5.1, and couldn’t stand listening to the stereo crash-downs that then became the soundtrack album. 
This gave me back 2/3rds of my sonic world. 
but it wasn’t that easy. Dolby where great in helping with software and teaching our engineers all the stuff the dubbing guys already know… and Apple was very, very forthcoming and helpful. 
it’s not a gimmick. It’s a truly immersive world you get to create…
hz


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 10, 2021)

Rctec said:


> I just mixed a soundtrack album in Dolby Atmos for head-phones. It started off by being given a pair of the new Apple Max Pro headphones before they became available (don’t ask!) and not even knowing they where Dolby Atmos designed. They where so extraordinary, that we remixed the soundtrack to be truly immersive.
> i have always written in 5.1, and couldn’t stand listening to the stereo crash-downs that then became the soundtrack album.
> This gave me back 2/3rds of my sonic world.
> but it wasn’t that easy. Dolby where great in helping with software and teaching our engineers all the stuff the dubbing guys already know… and Apple was very, very forthcoming and helpful.
> ...


Are you planning to re mix older soundtrack albums in atmos or just future ones? Because Interstellar would be phenomenal


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## Markrs (Jun 10, 2021)

Great to have your take on it Hans. I still doubt we would see wide spread adoption of this as it sounds complex to produce and costly in time and potentially equipment.

I can see the uses for soundtracks, but I struggle to see this being adopted within the bedroom producer world. If the cost and ability to do this reduces I could then see this being of interest rather than niche.

I will say that Apple has proved me wrong before where they have innovated and the rest have then followed.


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## tabulius (Jun 10, 2021)

I don't care about Dolby Atmos or spatial audio at all, but the lossless audio stream got me thinking about cancelling Spotify and moving to Apple Music. Lossless is coming to Spotify at some point but I believe it will cost extra. Apple Music is still the same 10 bucks a month.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jun 10, 2021)

Yep. Yep. Yep. 

It is one of the reasons the concept of 10 mic position libraries (like those offered by VSL) are not over-the-top, but actually really conducive for sculpting an immersive world.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jun 11, 2021)

@Rctec if you don’t mind answering, did you do a mix that was more “beds” based? Like, 1 or 2 beds? Or was it object based? Or a mix of the two?


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## Wunderhorn (Jun 11, 2021)

tabulius said:


> I don't care about Dolby Atmos or spatial audio at all, but the lossless ...


I feel exactly the opposite. I am way more excited about a true surround recording than having a 320K MP3 upgraded to a lossless format. The change to a more immersive surround sound is a lot more audible than moving to lossless IMO.


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## Wunderhorn (Jun 11, 2021)

Thing is... If you can start having a spatial experience with new kind of headphones (not just a multi-speaker surround setup), it is definitely going to become interesting for bedroom producers as well.



Markrs said:


> I can see the uses for soundtracks, but I struggle to see this being adopted within the bedroom producer world. If the cost and ability to do this reduces I could then see this being of interest rather than niche.


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## ptram (Jun 11, 2021)

I've been awaiting for immersive sound forever, but have not been able to get it for its cost and for lack of space. The new soundbars with reflective sound from the ceiling, and the new headphones, should make this technology accessible to everybody, even if not at the highest quality.

Its use will probably still be niche, since listeners of orchestral soundtracks are still niche. Maybe there will also be some classical (particularly opera), jazz (being in the clubs!) and progressive rock (spatial effects!) interested, but they’re are small numbers.

I don't see what it will be used for in the core business: modern commercial pop music. Will it be like 3D movies, where all you get is some effects of things flying toward the viewers, and a higher ticket price?

Paolo


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 11, 2021)

ptram said:


> I've been awaiting for immersive sound forever, but have not been able to get it for its cost and for lack of space. The new soundbars with reflective sound from the ceiling, and the new headphones, should make this technology accessible to everybody, even if not at the highest quality.
> 
> Its use will probably still be niche, since listeners of orchestral soundtracks are still niche. Maybe there will also be some classical (particularly opera), jazz (being in the clubs!) and progressive rock (spatial effects!) interested, but they’re are small numbers.
> 
> ...


Re the last bit, spatial audio (at least on Apple Music) is at no extra cost to the current pricing


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## chrisr (Jun 11, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Rctec if you don’t mind answering, did you do a mix that was more “beds” based? Like, 1 or 2 beds? Or was it object based? Or a mix of the two?


I'd also be interested to know how people approach this. Whilst objects are undoubtedly the 'sexy' part of Atmos, I can't help but wonder if they're counter productive for music mixing, unless you're mixing a very small sized ensemble where everything is an object??

I had the pleasure of visiting point1post (a large mix stage in North London) a while back for a kids movie I scored. They gave me the impression that typically the music stays in the bed when it's against picture - might we be entering an era where the movie soundtrack release gets to be more finessed (with objects) than the actual movie score itself? If so, do we score / deliver stems with the soundtrack in mind primarily, or the movie bed?


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## Scoremixer (Jun 11, 2021)

chrisr said:


> I'd also be interested to know how people approach this. Whilst objects are undoubtedly the 'sexy' part of Atmos, I can't help but wonder if they're counter productive for music mixing, unless you're mixing a very small sized ensemble where everything is an object??
> 
> I had the pleasure of visiting point1post (a large mix stage in North London) a while back for a kids movie I scored. They gave me the impression that typically the music stays in the bed when it's against picture - might we be entering an era where the movie soundtrack release gets to be more finessed (with objects) than the actual movie score itself? If so, do we score / deliver stems with the soundtrack in mind primarily, or the movie bed?


Most end listeners of spatial audio will be on headphones.

The Atmos renderer spits out a binaural output for this purpose, so that's what you'll be hearing when you stream on cans on Apple Music. The binaural processing can be a bit hit-and-miss, particularly with things that are already 'spatialised' by virtue of say having been recorded with a distant mic array in a large scoring stage. 

However, the Atmos renderer gives you the capability to individually select how much processing is applied to each of its 128 inputs, so by separating things out you get more control over what is processed and what isn't. Ie, if you just stick to the 7.1.2 bed, you basically only get to choose one level of binaural processing, and that might not be effective for everything in your score. 

TLDR; atmos mixing for a music only release is a bit different from atmos mixing for music delivery for a dub, if you want to maximise the potential of the format for your biggest listener base.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm very interested in this. I wasn't in 5.1 because the stuff we're doing doesn't end up in a cinema. Would you say, I could get away with approaching an Atmos mix when I do a stereo Mix on speakers and then, I can continue on cans? I'm pretty sure I cannot convert the rather tiny room I'm working in into a space with proper Atmos specs/speaker layout.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 11, 2021)

I had a dabble with Apple Music yesterday. The experience is still a little buggy. For example, the tracks in Apple's demo playlists weren't actually playing in Atmos until I dragged them into another playlist - at least on my system.

It's a little hit and miss. IMO, one of the best examples is the remix of Marvin Gaye's _"Whats Going On"_ - the headliner that Apple (presumably) threw some gold at. Played next to the (old school mix) tracks on rest of the album, the difference is stark.

On the other hand, I really didn't care for some of the John Williams treatments. The Atmos mixes sounded overhyped and weirdly compressed.

Still, early days and it's free to existing subscribers. Exciting stuff indeed. It'll be interesting to see how Logic is updated to deal with this.


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 11, 2021)

I found the new Taylor Swift album sounded really good, especially the track exile with Bon Iver


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 11, 2021)

Apparently, there are non-music uses for the tech. A good example would be a FaceTime chat with multiple people. Instead of everyone's voice coming from the same (mono) direction, the tech can be used to re-position the voices depending on the arrangement of users on-screen. I'm not sure where the line is between the Dolby stuff and Apple tech here, but it's getting a big push.



ptram said:


> By watching/listening to your video, it looks like ordinary headphones can work fine. There shouldn't be any need for special headphones. Or there is?
> 
> Paolo


As I understand, it works on normal cans. I think the "spacial" part happens when you're using Apple stuff with motion sensors built in. With those, the soundstage "moves" as you turn your head, but with normal cans the stage is "fixed."

So: Normal cans = standard Dolby Atmos.
Apple gear = Dolby Atmos + Spacial Audio cherry on top.

Have I got that right? Happy to be corrected. It's new to me too. 😂


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## ptram (Jun 11, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Apparently, there are non-music uses for the tech. A good example would be a FaceTime chat with multiple people.


Great! So, the _leaders'_ voice can come from above!

Paolo


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## CGR (Jun 11, 2021)

VSL (as mentioned by @Stephen Limbaugh) and Audio Brewers (with the Ambisonics mic options in their Upright piano and Pianoforte Fazioli Grand piano) are on the forefront of this from a sampled instruments perspective. Exciting times. @AudioBrewers – you may have some input/insights here?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jun 11, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> Would you say, I could get away with approaching an Atmos mix when I do a stereo Mix on speakers and then, I can continue on cans


Yes, absolutely. AVID sells the “local renderer” which runs in a separate window on your host. It’s like, $300 or something.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jun 11, 2021)

Also, speculation here, I think the Logic update is simply going to be making 9.2.1 native. Right now, Logic caps at 7.1.


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## Scoremixer (Jun 11, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> I'm very interested in this. I wasn't in 5.1 because the stuff we're doing doesn't end up in a cinema. Would you say, I could get away with approaching an Atmos mix when I do a stereo Mix on speakers and then, I can continue on cans? I'm pretty sure I cannot convert the rather tiny room I'm working in into a space with proper Atmos specs/speaker layout.


You can give it a go. At some point you're going to want to listen to it on speakers though... Universal (who are probably going the hardest on converting back catalogue stuff to Atmos) demand that you mix in a room that is at least 7.1.4.


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## KEM (Jun 11, 2021)

Rctec said:


> I just mixed a soundtrack album in Dolby Atmos for head-phones. It started off by being given a pair of the new Apple Max Pro headphones before they became available (don’t ask!) and not even knowing they where Dolby Atmos designed. They where so extraordinary, that we remixed the soundtrack to be truly immersive.
> i have always written in 5.1, and couldn’t stand listening to the stereo crash-downs that then became the soundtrack album.
> This gave me back 2/3rds of my sonic world.
> but it wasn’t that easy. Dolby where great in helping with software and teaching our engineers all the stuff the dubbing guys already know… and Apple was very, very forthcoming and helpful.
> ...


The Dark Knight Trilogy soundtracks in 5.1 lossless, we need it!!


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## AudioBrewers (Jun 18, 2021)

CGR said:


> VSL (as mentioned by @Stephen Limbaugh) and Audio Brewers (with the Ambisonics mic options in their Upright piano and Pianoforte Fazioli Grand piano) are on the forefront of this from a sampled instruments perspective. Exciting times. @AudioBrewers – you may have some input/insights here?


That's correct! We're extremely excited to see Apple jumping in!

First of all, we are hoping that the new version of Logic will bring an (*much*) easier routing workflow for multichannel plug-ins, as right now, as you can see from our video tutorials, it can be very messy.

Secondly, this is huge news for music - I am a complete believer in Spatial Audio and have always been a defender of it - to me, we are at a point where it could (and should) replace stereo just like Stereo replaced Mono (somehow!)

*Bear with me now, and allow me to explain my reasons.*
Spatial Audio mixing opens the door to ditching dedicated-channels mixing, you will no longer have to abide by the typical "place your speakers at this position in order to properly hear my mix"... This is what (somewhat) killed the Surround music industry... they expected you to have a room where speakers had to be X degrees from each other, X distance from your head, etc... And eventually, many people (enthusiasts mostly) were like "no way, I have to convert my whole living room to listen to some Pink Floyd in 5.1?, no thanks".

With Spatial Audio everything changes, because the mix is not made on the left-right channels anymore, it is done in a three-dimensional sound field, and THEN it is your decoder that will convert the signal into whatever you are listening to, using the parameters your decoder will have.

So it comes down to more or less a sightseeing tour... When you look at a picture, you have to put it in front of you to look at the mountains, make sure light is not reflecting the picture so that it doesn't mess what you see, make sure you don't bend it... Also, what was behind the picture? whelp. I guess you'll never know...

With Spatial Audio you are IN the place... so you can look at the picture, but if you rotate your head, you'll see more, if you rotate 180 degrees, you'll see behind, YOU will grab the information you want.


So decoders behave the same way... A simple decoder can convert a Spatial Mix to traditional stereo signals... But also, it can make it N-amount of speakers... and the speakers don't have to be placed the way the engineer told you to - instead, the decoder will know that you have one speaker above you, and then it will produce the sound from that very spot, it will also know that you have 2 speakers in front of you at Y height and at X width, and it will decode the signal for YOUR speakers... It's total freedom from rules, you set them... without even knowing!

So in other words... a Stereo Signal contains 2 mono signals, but a Spatial Mix contains every single corner from every single angle from every single distance from your music, and it is the user who decides "where to listen from"... It's really magic!

It will be a long road to educate producers and musicians to treat music this way (you don't have 2 speakers, but they are infinite now), but this is the right step - this, to us, is the "SD -> HD" music needed for the past 20 years, and we are excited (and proud) to be the first company to offer samples so that you can have this flexibility!

Sorry for the long post... nerd typing, can't stop, I just love preaching the word!


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## AudioBrewers (Jun 18, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Yes, absolutely. AVID sells the “local renderer” which runs in a separate window on your host. It’s like, $300 or something.


The local renderer is only to create an Atmos file from your mix. You can absolutely create spatial music without having to have a local renderer (e.g. check at our 360-degree demos in Youtube, they are all made in Nuendo/Reaper).

That being said, for Apple Music, AFAIK, you will need an Atmos file. But again, you can absolutely work the mix at your studio, and then go and render it on a place that has a Renderer.


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## CGR (Jun 18, 2021)

Now that I've upgraded my Mac and Kontakt to the latest v.6, I can seriously consider this now


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## AudioBrewers (Jun 18, 2021)

chrisr said:


> I'd also be interested to know how people approach this. Whilst objects are undoubtedly the 'sexy' part of Atmos, I can't help but wonder if they're counter productive for music mixing, unless you're mixing a very small sized ensemble where everything is an object??
> 
> I had the pleasure of visiting point1post (a large mix stage in North London) a while back for a kids movie I scored. They gave me the impression that typically the music stays in the bed when it's against picture - might we be entering an era where the movie soundtrack release gets to be more finessed (with objects) than the actual movie score itself? If so, do we score / deliver stems with the soundtrack in mind primarily, or the movie bed?


I guess it all comes down to what you want to do.

Psycho-acoustically speaking, a lot of objects without visual interaction (in other words, music), can be very distracting and counter productive, if I were to write music, I'd focus on the beds and maybe use objects for whatever really needs focus... But again, you don't want a singer to be moving like a madman around the "listener"... I guess we're on a "Beatles-like" phase, where they tried everything in the stereo field (drums hard panned on one side!) so as to find standards!


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## Loïc D (Jun 18, 2021)

Super cool !
The new epic will be :
- percussions on the ground
- choirs in the sky
- orchestra on flat plane

The question is : where do I put that cowbell ? And Alex Fraser’s famous sleighbells epic ensemble ?


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## AudioBrewers (Jun 18, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> Super cool !
> The new epic will be :
> - percussions on the ground
> - choirs in the sky
> ...


Depending, if you are Horacio Hernandez you can put one cowbell on the floor and another one above the listener 🤣


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## Living Fossil (Jun 18, 2021)

AudioBrewers said:


> Depending, if you are Horacio Hernandez you can put one cowbell on the floor and another one above the listener 🤣


Without visual interaction and spatial movement of these sound elements, the listener's brain has the tendency to simplify things after some seconds of listening.
Some sampled instruments that are 20m behind your left back will be reduced to a somehow muffled distant sound in your perception (except when you're putting effort in maintaining the localisation as listener)

It's not without a reason the word "to focus" means to mentally put things in one place, since that's what the brain does. 
However, this doesn't mean more than in order to get the brain perceive the 3D component, you have to write music that substantially relies on this aspect. 
And you need listeners who are aware of it and keep their mind open to perceive the additional information. (which is the case in audio-visual scenarios)

However, if these aspects are met, spatial audio can be a fantastic experience.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 18, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> Super cool !
> The new epic will be :
> - percussions on the ground
> - choirs in the sky
> ...


Need you ask? An epic "wall of sleigh bells" covering the front/rear stage with a solitary dry cowbell moving quickly and continually around the listeners head.


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## janila (Jun 18, 2021)

People who haven't experienced (good) spatial audio see it in a weird way. It's like you couldn't accelerate a Tesla slower than 0-60 MPH in 3 seconds. Yes, you can do circus tricks that aren't possible in stereo, but that's not how you actually drive a Tesla 99,99 percent of the time and that's not the purpose to buy either. I have a Genelec 7.1.4 system and the only downside of spatial audio against stereo is that stereo usually sounds more coherent when you are listening in the background and are not seated in the listening position. The speakers in the back are supposed to be in the back so it's better to be without if you aren't sitting where you are supposed to be. Other than that (good) spatial audio is just so much better. It sounds more natural, less technical, more emotional.

The basic and excellent approach to spatial mixing is having your instruments in the front channels which gives you three or five front channels for more natural positioning, and then using the rest of the channels for room. Or you can add the front heights for a wall of sound. Or for an intimate performance you can just use the center for direct sound and the rest for the room. It doesn't matter what the genre is or if the acoustic space being portrayed is natural or artificial, it still sounds like you are being invited to where the performer chooses to perform, not like having the performance badly replicated in the corner of your room. In movies my setup can put me in a small car or a huge concert hall in a way that feels close enough to being there to forget that it's all an illusion. That's how immersive music mixing should be used in most cases. If you want the performer to run from the stage and kill an annoying fly behind the listener you can.

I havent' tried Atmos with headphones yet but I suppose the trend will be a combination of calibration files for supported headphones and AI imaging of your ear.

Genelec Aural ID: https://www.genelec.com/aural-id
Steinberg Immerse: https://new.steinberg.net/immerse/


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## S R Krishnan (Jun 19, 2021)

Rctec said:


> I just mixed a soundtrack album in Dolby Atmos for head-phones. It started off by being given a pair of the new Apple Max Pro headphones before they became available (don’t ask!) and not even knowing they where Dolby Atmos designed. They where so extraordinary, that we remixed the soundtrack to be truly immersive.
> i have always written in 5.1, and couldn’t stand listening to the stereo crash-downs that then became the soundtrack album.
> This gave me back 2/3rds of my sonic world.
> but it wasn’t that easy. Dolby where great in helping with software and teaching our engineers all the stuff the dubbing guys already know… and Apple was very, very forthcoming and helpful.
> ...


Did you mix it on Cubase or Pro
Tools?


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jun 25, 2021)

Does anyone know if Apple Music/iTunes will playback Atmos tracks correctly on true surround systems? In other words, if you listen in your surround-equipped studio with Atmos enabled does it decode properly? Or is the Atmos feature limited to consumer devices like Beats and AirPods?


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