# Kingdom of Riqia - first trailer-type track



## Lawson. (Jul 22, 2015)

My first serious attempt at a heavy-hitting hybrid-orchestral trailer piece.

Hope you enjoy, and as always, I would be honored for comments and critiques. Thanks!


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## mwarsell (Jul 22, 2015)

Great piece, great atmosphere. However, I feel that it should continue to build after the 1 min climax and not change to a lighter gear. Because it never sort of gets there again. We were promised something "epic"  but it doesn't, imho, live up to it in the end. A great track, but Thor demands more epicness.

Actually, now that I listen to it again the lighter gear is kinda cool, but the initial 1min climax seems to come quite suddenly, the change is quite huge.

[disclaimer: listening on crappy iphone speakers]


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## Lawson. (Jul 23, 2015)

Thank you very much! I've been testing out adding bigger builds to it; I'll keep you (and whoever else is reading this) updated on how it's going.


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## Lawson. (Jul 25, 2015)

Anyone else have any comments? I'm really new to this genre and any critiques would be amazing. :D


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## RiffWraith (Jul 25, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> Anyone else have any comments? I'm really new to this genre and any critiques would be amazing.



Some nice ideas here.

A few thoughts:

The beginning figure creates a nice atmosphere, but gets boring after a while, b/c the piano just keeps repeating the same notes. Consider adding some other elements, and making it interesting. And not just one or two. It's really more underscore than anything right now.

1:07 - sorta-kinda trailer-ish in a way, but sorta-kinda not. No percussion? Horns are buried. They should be big, epic, gleaming and majestic.

1:27 - WTF happened there?!?!? That is the kind of change you have when writing to picture (as necessary)... not in a trailer track.

1:48 - kinda dies again (seems to have some elements deleted?) and then you have this - sorry I am going to say it - mega-cheesey toy piano playing. Ick. I get what you are trying to do - keep that ascending figure going, the one that has already established with the strings. That is a good idea, but not like that! Consider keeping the strings going there, and building them.

I like the ending. Maybe add a couple of more elements.

All in all, you are heading in the right direction. Also bear in mind, that you need to have _editable tracks_. With an occasional and rare exception, entire tracks are never used s/f. The editor needs to be able to edit your track, and you need to give them this ability. The end is a good example of the sort of thing you need to do.

Cheers.


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## tokatila (Jul 26, 2015)

I liked the track.

My main "complaints":
1:48 Sounds like change from Brian Tyler to Alexandre Desplat. I guess that's ok if what you were going for. I personally expected the 1:07- part to come again with even more grandeur. 

1:07 part has some problems with orchestration / mixing. It feels like there is something missing, I especially wanted the "thwack" from some transient-rich drum to hit me to the nuts there right at the beginning . Bottom ends sounds congested and it feels you have an Asgard Choir there with children's drum corps.


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## Lawson. (Jul 26, 2015)

Thanks so much for the detailed critiques! I updated the track with a new mix, more percussion, more interesting details, no more cheesy-toy-piano at the climax, and less of a change (I think) at 1:27. I know that a lot of trailers have a lower-energy bridge between the first and second climax, but maybe I made mine too extreme.

Thanks again, and please feel free to comment on the changes. :D


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## mwarsell (Jul 26, 2015)

I think it's better now, but the intro seems too long. And the track just doesn't get to it's climax for some reason. I don't know why, but it still seems somewhat lackluster. (sorry for being quite harsh, I know it's a lot of work to update an existing track). But I'm not sure how to improve.


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## tokatila (Jul 27, 2015)

Better, I'm still missing the big "Thorish" payoff at 1:57. Also around 1:25 it sounds like there are 10 Piccolos?playing against 1 trumpet. When I close my eyes I see the elves doing their thing there. Or little hobbits with their little whistles. Not very Thorish.


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## Dean (Jul 27, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> I wanted to write a track that might fit with a Thor 3 trailer; blending modern hybrid with classic orchestra and choir the way Thor is both of the past and the new.
> 
> Hope you enjoy, and as always, I would be honored for comments and critiques. Thanks!




You have the makings of a very good trailer cue here,..I suggest that at 1:06 instead of coming in huge with choir and brass section that you could start there instead with the section from 1:27 - 1:58 and then build into the big choir/brass section (originally 1:06 - 1:27) but build this section too.

Personally those bass dropdowns cheapen the track a little I dont think you need them,up to you of course.

I would say watch the 'tone' of the track as you're already riding the fence between epic and trailer,..if you try to capture both styles in one track,..you could wind up in music 'purgatory'..too epic for trailers and too trailer for epic.Be bold and go for one or the other! 

I think you need to forget about the amounts of dropdowns/cliamax etc and just compose this cue the way it needs to be,dont force it to have big bass dropdowns/pauses,hit exact marks etc,..just make it as great as possible.

I also think you should get a title that is all 'yours' and own this cue,...once you type Asgard or anything specific like that people will paint a picture of your cue in their minds and compare it to existing material and references. D


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## FriFlo (Jul 27, 2015)

Some ideas: The percussion accents in the middle could be supported by some low brass - I need more crack and oomph here!  The choir is to much in the background, as to be relevant for my taste. In the intro and extro there should be more happening. It is too boring in contrast with the middle part. It could be just what is needed for an actual trailer (maybe tiny insteresting things added). But I always judge, what I think when I listen to it and unless one actually writes for a cue, I think one should just write music to listen to.


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## Lawson. (Jul 27, 2015)

Wow, a ton of great advice here! Thanks a ton to everyone!

@mwarsell 
I'm not sure what else to add, especially for the climax. And no, you're not being harsh; it's totally fine.

@tokatila
I'm not sure what else to do at 1:57; I literally have an entire orchestra + choir, percussion, and synths all playing there. Is it an orchestration thing or a writing thing? 1:25 is a piccolo, two flutes, and 1st violins all in octaves on that line. Maybe the WW balance is off a little. 

@Dean
I will try that out as well as getting rid of the bass drop downs and see what happens.

What is the main different between "trailer" and "epic" as it seems the two genres have blended quite a bit? As far as I know, "epic" is supposed to be very big, grand, exciting, energetic music, and "trailer" is music specifically composed for trailers. However, it seems that trailer is epic but epic isn't always trailer?

That is amazing advice. Would it affect chances of getting placed if the track is too far from the standards, though? And yes, for soundtrack stuff I like painting a picture of what I imagined it to go with but I think for trailers (or maybe all, but it seems that a lot of people like knowing context to soundtrack things) I'm not going to. I'm wondering if I would've gotten different feedback if I hadn't said I personally imagined it for a Thor-type thing. Do you think it's too late to change the title to something more neutral?

@FriFlo
Oooh, I didn't think of pairing some low brass stabs with the percussion accents. I'll try that out! On my monitors the choir stands out pretty well but I'll listen again. I'll see what I can do with more happening. Very nice tip by the way; "one should just write music to listen to" is something that I think a lot of people (myself included) forget when writing this type of music.

Thanks again, guys! I will keep you all updated on my revisions.


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## tokatila (Jul 27, 2015)

I meant not to bring it down at 1:57, bring the part starting around 1:07 again, the Horn melody and countermelody with trumpets there is definitely the strongest part for me in the piece. So naturally I would like to hear it again with even more grandeur. Maybe violins in octaves? 

This is not a writing or orchestration thing, it's "what this listener would like" thing, well you could call it a writing thing, if you want. But then again, repeating the melody again there would probably make it a less trailer music and more like a "Main theme". How about we call it "Thor vs. Hobbits".


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## Lawson. (Jul 27, 2015)

Totally edited the piece and renamed it. Please feel free to tear it apart; I'm still completely open to suggestions.


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## tokatila (Jul 28, 2015)

I have already commented a couple times, but I have to say it's much better now when you re-organized sections. Now it feels much more natural to stop at 1:57 than previously.


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## mwarsell (Jul 28, 2015)

Yes, sorry to hijack a little bit, but I'm also interested in the definition/difference of epic and trailer. Thomas Bergersen's "Final Frontier" on the Sun album: epic or trailer? What if the same track is placed in Interstellar #3 trailer? Epic or trailer?

Lawson: the track is much better now! Sounds great. My only gripe is the second bass boom at the end climax - why are there two of these booms almost one after another? And just when the piece should be in it's loudest and grandest the volume somehow drops? You could keep it up?


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> Totally edited the piece and renamed it. Please feel free to tear it apart; I'm still completely open to suggestions.



Hey, Structure wise I think its nearly all there now!..works better with just the one Bass drop! The percussion from 1:06 is too thin and weak,needs to be more powerful with more bottom end and body,..try layering in some sub bas hits and some bigger mid range perc (higher in volume,lower in velocity)

I really like the slightly dissonant WW's at 1:28 great for score etc, but for the trailer cue version I think you should lose that and keep it more emotional and harmonious.

The Trumpet from 1:16 doesnt work,sounds too high and thin not suitable for trailers,..trailers have a more rounded.deep and dark sound (always choose FHNs over Trumpets or cellos over violins etc.)

The whole theme section (which is great!) from 1:36 - 1:58 needs to be doubled,I suggest that you hold off on the answering trumpets untill you repeat this whole section again but when you do you need to replace the (answering) trumpets with soaring strings instead.Also when the theme repeats really go for it and double the F.horn theme with soaring strings and,this will bring everything up a level and add more emotion and power.

I also suggest you could try some simple counterpoint with a soaring legato female choir (just oos and aahs) not words or consinants,..something that adds another level and more emotion and tension.

Remember this is your Act 3 section,the huge climax,..(the rest was just foreplay  ) it needs to keep growing and layering,..you cant take your foot off the gas for a second at this stage. D


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> @Dean
> What is the main different between "trailer" and "epic" as it seems the two genres have blended quite a bit? As far as I know, "epic" is supposed to be very big, grand, exciting, energetic music, and "trailer" is music specifically composed for trailers. However, it seems that trailer is epic but epic isn't always trailer?



There are alot of similarities between the epic and trailer styles for sure,..my take on the differences are as follows;

Epic music: has broader tones/themes such as adventure,etheral,hope,fantasy,uplifting,dissonance.
Trailer music: has more specific tones/themes such as emotion/tension/urgency/power/darkness/drive.
Epic music: can have more complex 'score like' orchestration,more 'lyrical' passages,ebbing and flowing,flourishes etc.
Trailer music: has a more more distilled/focused/linear structure & tone,one powerful cohesive idea that builds and builds.layers and layers,..like a freight train picking up momentum untill the last stop!
Epic music: instrumentation can include tpts/ww's/metals/violins/LOTR style etheral and deep male choirs etc,
Trailer music: generally try to avoid the above instruments,trailers have a more rounded,robust & powerful sound,...a much darker tone overall.

Hope that makes sense? Im simplifying here and there and of course theres lots of crossover too.
ps:Im mainly talking about the bedrock of both styles here (the orchestra) I'm not really getting into hybrid,raging guitars,drum kits,chanting(shouting choirs),Industrial,dystopian,dub-step and so on.

Dean.


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## Lawson. (Jul 28, 2015)

Dean said:


> Hey, Structure wise I think its nearly all there now!..works better with just the one Bass drop! The percussion from 1:06 is too thin and weak,needs to be more powerful with more bottom end and body,..try layering in some sub bas hits and some bigger mid range perc (higher in volume,lower in velocity)
> 
> I really like the slightly dissonant WW's at 1:28 great for score etc, but for the trailer cue version I think you should lose that and keep it more emotional and harmonious.
> 
> ...



Wow, thank you very much for this SECOND detailed critique! I really really really appreciate it.

The WW are doubling the piano which is doing a F#dim7 arpeggio. How would I make that more emotional? 

I brought the velocities of the percussion down a lot, turned up the volume, and added some more sub hits. It sounds a lot fuller now.

Changed the trumpet to Horn 2 and the bones.

Did all of that as well! I can't hear the soaring strings very well through over everything else, though. Plus, I now have two string sections/a giant 100 piece string section in divisi (one for the soaring stuff and one for the ostinato)! 

The one problem I have now is that nothing really syncs that well to the designated 30 second hit points. On the other hand, I can pretty easily chop it up and get it syncing if need be. Would this affect placement?

Thanks again!




Dean said:


> There are alot of similarities between the epic and trailer styles for sure,..my take on the differences are as follows;
> 
> Epic music: has broader tones/themes such as adventure,etheral,hope,fantasy,uplifting,dissonance.
> Trailer music: has more specific tones/themes such as emotion/tension/urgency/power/darkness/drive.
> ...



Awesome, that makes a ton of sense. What about guys like TSFH and Audiomachine, though? They seem to blend the two genres completely (or do they just write "epic" music and the production guys use the climaxes for trailer climaxes)?


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

just had a quick listen,..getting better everytime! great work!
ps: I started a thread 'trailers vs Epic:Whats the difference' if you can post your questions there? D


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

re WW notes: I mean try more harmonious notes instead ( its just that little section)
why not bounce/mixdown the additional strings as a seperate audio stem and apply some light high/mid EQ then they will stand out in the mix. D


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## Lawson. (Jul 28, 2015)

Dean said:


> re WW notes: I mean try more harmonious notes instead ( its just that little section)
> why not bounce/mixdown the additional strings as a seperate audio stem and apply some light high/mid EQ then they will stand out in the mix. D



Whew! I found some Fs in the WW during the F#dim7 so that may have been what was causing the dissonance. I fixed them to F#s so hopefully that helps. I also bounced out the strings and added some EQ which solved that problem.

I think I'm pretty much at a final product (but feel free to critique it some more). The one thing that concerns me is that it doesn't fit with the hit points as well as I would like, but I can pretty easily edit it if requested.

Thank you so much. I've learned a ton about writing trailer music in just a couple of days.


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

Hey, theres some bum notes/off notes still going on 1:25 - 1:36ish on the building strings and tonally the WWs are still a bit 'off' to me,..it just slightly changes there which kind of jumps out to me.

1:17 - 1:20ish dont know if its high stacc tpts or strings (far right) it has the wrong attack or tail so its giving that sucking,unnatural effect? 

I still think youre about 90% there,..if you keep pushing and pushing its well worth it!..better to have 5 stellar cues than 20 average ones! D


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

what hit points do you mean?


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## Lawson. (Jul 28, 2015)

Dean said:


> Hey, theres some bum notes/off notes still going on 1:25 - 1:36ish on the building strings and tonally the WWs are still a bit 'off' to me,..it just slightly changes there which kind of jumps out to me.
> 
> 1:17 - 1:20ish dont know if its high stacc tpts or strings (far right) it has the wrong attack or tail so its giving that sucking,unnatural effect?
> 
> I still think youre about 90% there,..if you keep pushing and pushing its well worth it!..better to have 5 stellar cues than 20 average ones! D



Did some more checking and remembered that I had a Ebmaj7 going on and the D was in the WWs while the piano was playing the Eb. Changed everything to Eb and it's a lot clearer now.

Ohhh, that! That's a synth thing I added to highlight the violins (plus IMO it sounds neat the way it's constantly evolving). I purposely made it have that sucking effect but maybe I should revise that. Was it unnatural because it sounded like a badly-programmed orchestral instrument or does it just not work?

I've heard that for trailer tracks it's generally a good idea to have climaxes at around 1:30, 2:00, and/or 2:30. I originally had this track set up to hit on 1:30 and 2:00, but now it's all sort of jumbled up. I don't know if that would affect placement? I could easily edit it to fit if requested.


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## Dean (Jul 29, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> Was it unnatural because it sounded like a badly-programmed orchestral instrument or does it just not work?



Both.
D


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## Dean (Jul 29, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> I've heard that for trailer tracks it's generally a good idea to have climaxes at around 1:30, 2:00, and/or 2:30. I originally had this track set up to hit on 1:30 and 2:00, but now it's all sort of jumbled up. I don't know if that would affect placement? I could easily edit it to fit if requested.



Forget all that crap. 
There are many different styles of trailer,..Slowburners that build , explosive tracks with dramatic pauses , emotional theme based , aggressive ear bleeding hybrid etc,..Dont force your cues to hit exact marks,editors love surprises too so if a track naturally runs at 4 - 6 mins noyone cares as long as you have a killer theme / set-peice / section / intro that grabs them. Think of your cue as an overall presentation or showcase,..if youre lucky they will run with a certain section of you're cue,if youre really,really,really lucky and your cue is that strong and cohesive they'll run with the whole thing! 

D


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## Lawson. (Jul 30, 2015)

Dean said:


> Both.
> D



Changed out the synth and also added little touches of it to the beginning and end to add more interest.




Dean said:


> Forget all that crap.
> There are many different styles of trailer,..Slowburners that build , explosive tracks with dramatic pauses , emotional theme based , aggressive ear bleeding hybrid etc,..Dont force your cues to hit exact marks,editors love surprises too so if a track naturally runs at 4 - 6 mins noyone cares as long as you have a killer theme / set-peice / section / intro that grabs them. Think of your cue as an overall presentation or showcase,..if youre lucky they will run with a certain section of you're cue,if youre really,really,really lucky and your cue is that strong and cohesive they'll run with the whole thing!
> 
> D



Thanks for the info! That's a bit relieving to hear.


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## Dean (Jul 30, 2015)

keep in mind there are other composers who take a more exact approach and time sections to be :30 secs and to hit exact marks/downbeats etc,..its up to you,..this is only my opinion and the way I work) its not for everyone.) 

Listen to the other guys too and how they work too. D


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## Lawson. (Aug 6, 2015)

Dean said:


> keep in mind there are other composers who take a more exact approach and time sections to be :30 secs and to hit exact marks/downbeats etc,..its up to you,..this is only my opinion and the way I work) its not for everyone.)
> 
> Listen to the other guys too and how they work too. D



Alrighty, thanks! Sorry for late response by the way.


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