# Dorico: Expression Maps Library



## Ivan Duch (May 15, 2022)

The intention with this post is to share the expression maps we create for our libraries in Dorico and learn from each other approaches. 

As expression maps are shared I'll create an index in this initial post.


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## Ivan Duch (May 15, 2022)

I personally plan to be creating expression maps for the following libraries in upcoming weeks:

Eduardo Tarilonte Dark Era
Eduardo Tarilonte Celtic Era
Oceania 2
Strezov Choir Essentials
Dominus 
Sample modeling Strings
Infinite Woodwinds 
Infinite Brass
8dio Adagio
Adachi
Several 8dio epic percussions
Audioimperia Solo
Spitfire Solstice


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## SteveStudio (May 16, 2022)

Ivan, I look forward to eventually contributing to the collection. Thank you for starting this thread.


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## ssnowe (May 16, 2022)

Would it make sense to set up something in github to share the expression maps?


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

ssnowe said:


> Would it make sense to set up something in github to share the expression maps?


Great idea. I use Reaticulate myself and its GitHub is very useful.

As soon as we start gathering some stuff I can upload it to Github, I'm not sure about the kind of file the expression maps create, though.


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> Ivan, I look forward to eventually contributing to the collection. Thank you for starting this thread.


Awesome, I think it might become very useful for new users as they jump into Dorico. The expression maps are the heart of it as @ed buller has demonstrated.

I'm currently waiting for my Pro license to arrive so I can start working on my libraries.


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## dyross (May 16, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> I personally plan to be creating expression maps for the following libraries in upcoming weeks:
> 
> Eduardo Tarilonte Dark Era
> Eduardo Tarilonte Celtic Era
> ...


I've tried out Infinite Woodwinds (not yet Brass) in Dorico and not sure how much you can get out of Expression Maps without extensive CC drawing / live recording.

Curious to see if you get better results than me (or if you were, indeed, planning to do a lot of drawing / recording).

Thanks for starting this!


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

dyross said:


> I've tried out Infinite Woodwinds (not yet Brass) in Dorico and not sure how much you can get out of Expression Maps without extensive CC drawing / live recording.
> 
> Curious to see if you get better results than me (or if you were, indeed, planning to do a lot of drawing / recording).
> 
> Thanks for starting this!


You confirm my thoughts then, that they sound dead without proper cc input. Although maybe @ed buller can offer some insight into this.

I'm fine with live recording as usual, though. Just need to see if I can make my leap motion work. I just want to visualize my composition in notation.


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## ssnowe (May 16, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Great idea. I use Reaticulate myself and its GitHub is very useful.
> 
> As soon as we start gathering some stuff I can upload it to Github, I'm not sure about the kind of file the expression maps create, though.


They are XML text files, gitub handles them with no issues


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## ennbr (May 16, 2022)

Let me add something here Expression Maps are only half the solution in setting up an external sample lib in Dorico. The next step is using the Expression Maps to create a Playback Template this in turn will allow Dorico when you make an instrument selection load the correct player and instrument.

My point is expression maps will only take you half way to the goal of integrating a 3rd party instrument library.


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

ennbr said:


> Let me add something here Expression Maps are only half the solution in setting up an external sample lib in Dorico. The next step is using the Expression Maps to create a Playback Template this in turn will allow Dorico when you make an instrument selection load the correct player and instrument.
> 
> My point is expression maps will only take you half way to the goal of integrating a 3rd party instrument library.



Isn't it the most time consuming, though? 

I was under that impression but my experience is very limited


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## ennbr (May 16, 2022)

Yes your correct it does add more time but that's what makes everything complete the expression maps only help in assigning articulations. Endpoints need to be saved in some cases Playing Techniques need to be created. The remaining part is just creating empty Staffs doing the assignments and saving Endpoints.

Don't forget in many cases you can import Cubase Expression Maps to speed up the process


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

ennbr said:


> Yes your correct it does add more time but that's what makes everything complete the expression maps only help in assigning articulations. Endpoints need to be saved in some cases Playing Techniques need to be created. The remaining part is just creating empty Staffs doing the assignments and saving Endpoints.
> 
> Don't forget in many cases you can import Cubase Expression Maps to speed up the process



Good points. Thanks for the feedback. Playback templates and custom playing techniques can be shared, right? 

I wonder about the endpoints.


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## ennbr (May 16, 2022)

Ivan you may be interested in my interested in my AI Solo implementation that can be saved as a Playback Template. Its using standard Keyswitching I have not setup any of my libs to use Ed's method at this time. 

I've completed all of the major Audio Imperia libs Jaeger is missing the percussion as well as EastWest Hollywood Opus and some of Cinesamples

I like the option of reselecting Libs by loading Playback templates in Dorico when I'm working to here how something else will sound


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

ennbr said:


> Ivan you may be interested in my interested in my AI Solo implementation that can be saved as a Playback Template. Its using standard Keyswitching I have not setup any of my libs to use Ed's method at this time.
> 
> I've completed all of the major Audio Imperia libs Jaeger is missing the percussion as well as EastWest Hollywood Opus and some of Cinesamples
> 
> I like the option of reselecting Libs by loading Playback templates in Dorico when I'm working to here how something else will sound




Thanks a lot! Gonna test it tomorrow when I'm back at the studio.


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## ennbr (May 16, 2022)

Here's a step by step of how I create Playback Templates

1 - Set Dorico Playback template to Silence
2 - Create a Blank Dorico project
3 - Add, Import, or Create Expression Maps
4 - Go into Dorico Setup and create the necessary Instruments
(the tricky part is to decide if they need to be Single player, Multiplayer, or Both)
5 - Select the Play VST Rack mode in Dorico and load the Player for each Instrument
6 - Now in Play mode Endpoint setup (that's the little Gear icon)assign a name and select the previously created Expression Map
7 - Repeat steps 5 and 6 until all instruments are setup
8 - Save your Endpoints from VST Rack bottom of the Instrument list
9 - Now you can create a new Playback Template using the previously created Endpoints
10 - Testing lots of testing I usually find I'm missing Staffs for Single or Multi instruments

There are other steps like in creating Percussion instruments (many require Drum Maps not Expression) or creating new Play Techniques


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

ennbr said:


> Here's a step by step of how I create Playback Templates


Thanks for sharing this. Gonna be testing this as well tomorrow morning.


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## Gil (May 17, 2022)

ennbr said:


> I've completed all of the major Audio Imperia libs Jaeger is missing the percussion as well as EastWest Hollywood Opus and some of Cinesamples


Hello @ennbr,
Would you like to share your Hollywood Opus expression maps for Dorico please?
Thanks!
Best regards,
Gil.


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## Ivan Duch (May 17, 2022)

ennbr said:


> Ivan you may be interested in my interested in my AI Solo implementation that can be saved as a Playback Template. Its using standard Keyswitching I have not setup any of my libs to use Ed's method at this time.
> 
> I've completed all of the major Audio Imperia libs Jaeger is missing the percussion as well as EastWest Hollywood Opus and some of Cinesamples
> 
> I like the option of reselecting Libs by loading Playback templates in Dorico when I'm working to here how something else will sound



I just installed it, thanks for sharing this. Very helpful. 

I see that probably the best way to share these is to share the playback template, right? It even took care of the routing and assigned the proper endpoint, loaded the VSTs from Kontakt on my side without any issues. 

What do you think about assigning staccato or staccatissimo to the spiccato articulation as well? So all of those short articulations load those samples.


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## Ivan Duch (May 17, 2022)

I'm still waiting for the Pro license to arrive on my end so I'm currently testing stuff on the SE version. As soon as I get it I'll move my projects to Dorico and work on all those expression maps I mentioned before.


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## Ivan Duch (May 17, 2022)

Also, how well does the Cubase expression map import work? Are there free resources available for getting them like with Reaticulate Reaper?

*Update*: I just realized Best Service offers expression maps for the Tarilonte libraries I own, I just imported some of them and I'm testing. It's very helpful but it's kinda half of the work because you still have to assign them to the corresponding notated articulations or create your own playing techniques.

That said if we can find a good source for Cubase Expression Maps it could be very helpful.


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## wcreed51 (May 17, 2022)

ennbr said:


> Save your Endpoints from VST Rack bottom of the Instrument list


If I understand correctly, all instruments have to be loaded to update an Endpoint, which makes incremental changes not so convenient. Seems like you'd almost want to have separate Endpoints for each instrument/ensemble.


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## ennbr (May 17, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> I see that probably the best way to share these is to share the playback template, right? It even took care of the routing and assigned the proper endpoint, loaded the VSTs from Kontakt on my side without any issues.


Yes completed Templates are the easiest however if the Dorico project file and exported Expression maps are included than anyone can make changes when needed. So maybe just a Zip of everything would work better in the long run.


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## ennbr (May 17, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> If I understand correctly, all instruments have to be loaded to update an Endpoint, which makes incremental changes not so convenient. Seems like you'd almost want to have separate Endpoints for each instrument/ensemble.


I usually will work a section at a time so I have separate Dorico project files for Winds, Brass, Perc, Strings, etc on a large library collection


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## Ivan Duch (May 20, 2022)

Is it me or expression maps are linked to playback templates? I'm trying to access expression maps but they only show when I load a specific playback template. 

Is there a way to link expression maps to other playback templates?


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## wcreed51 (May 20, 2022)

It's all rather confusing. You have expression maps, playing techniques and playback techniques. When created, they are only in the project you created them in. Expression maps can be exported, then imported into other projects, and I believe the other two can be made part of the default list.

Those three, plus the loaded plugins, routing and assigned ex maps can then be saved as an Endpoint Configuration. One or more Endpoints can be saved as a Template, and applied en mass to new projects. @ennbr let me know if I'm missing anything.


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## Ivan Duch (May 20, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> It's all rather confusing. You have expression maps, playing techniques and playback techniques. When created, they are only in the project you created them in. Expression maps can be exported, then imported into other projects, and I believe the other two can be made part of the default list.
> 
> Those three, plus the loaded plugins, routing and assigned ex maps can then be saved as an Endpoint Configuration. One or more Endpoints can be saved as a Template, and applied en mass to new projects. @ennbr let me know if I'm missing anything.


Thank you! Yes, it's weird that you can't have like a main library for all expression maps shared among projects and playback templates.


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## ennbr (May 20, 2022)

Yes expression maps are used to start a Playback Template. It can be confusing until you create your first Playback template and then it all makes sense


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## Ivan Duch (May 21, 2022)

Thank you @ennbr!

I started building expression maps and endpoints but I encountered another challenge. It seems like the endpoints use the underlying name for the instrument and looks like there's no plural instruments in Dorico.

So if I create an endpoint connected to a flutes a3 patch for example, when I load the playback template into a new song and load the sections I need, it won't recognize any flute section or flute a3. In other words, the endpoints are only connected to the underlying name of the instrument which is always a singular name.

Only something like flute 4, will work. Meaning you have to load 4 flutes before it gets there. Is this correct?

I'm feeling like sharing just the expression maps would be the most versatile way to do this, since playback templates are very personal.


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## AcousTech (May 21, 2022)

Hey Folks! 

My reply isn't about the expression map particulars, but about an example GitHub repository that might be useful. PreSonus has their Notion product that ostensibly competes with Dorico(though arguably not well). Nevertheless, they do have a very thin library of expression maps that they host here:









GitHub - notionmusic/presets: Presets for sound libraries


Presets for sound libraries. Contribute to notionmusic/presets development by creating an account on GitHub.




github.com





So, if that helps at all with Repo ideas, great! If not, well, I was never here...


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## Ivan Duch (May 21, 2022)

AcousTech said:


> Hey Folks!
> 
> My reply isn't about the expression map particulars, but about an example GitHub repository that might be useful. PreSonus has their Notion product that ostensibly competes with Dorico(though arguably not well). Nevertheless, they do have a very thin library of expression maps that they host here:
> 
> ...


Definitely helps! It's a great idea. Any thoughts on how to handle permissions and ownership of the Github repo?


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## AcousTech (May 21, 2022)

Sadly, no. I'm a Git & GitHub amateur. I do imagine you would need:
1. Ownership group - of more than one person, so it doesn't become "abandonware"
2. Public viewing access - so everyone could freely consume the posted maps
3. Approved group writing access - this is a maybe, but it might be better to govern this than leave it wide open such that people without the required skills don't damage what is there.


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## Leigh (May 21, 2022)

AcousTech said:


> Sadly, no. I'm a Git & GitHub amateur. I do imagine you would need:
> 1. Ownership group - of more than one person, so it doesn't become "abandonware"
> 2. Public viewing access - so everyone could freely consume the posted maps
> 3. Approved group writing access - this is a maybe, but it might be better to govern this than leave it wide open such that people without the required skills don't damage what is there.


I think the way it works with public repos is that anyone can clone the repo and make changes. They then make a Pull Request to have the changes merged with the main public repo. The repo admin can then decide to permanently add the changes to the public repo.

The other option is to Fork the repo, making a completely separate, new project.

**Leigh


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## wcreed51 (May 21, 2022)

Ivan, You'd add a solo flute as a single player and a3 flutes as a section player in your score setup. Then the right instruments will be loaded.

If you have multiple endpoints in your template, their order in the list will determine their precedence.


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## AcousTech (May 21, 2022)

Leigh said:


> I think the way it works with public repos is that anyone can clone the repo and make changes. They then make a Pull Request to have the changes merged with the main public repo. The repo admin can then decide to permanently add the changes to the public repo.
> 
> **Leigh


Leigh, 

Good feedback. That makes sense. I think, then, that Ivan’s question remains regarding who would “own” the repo, and thus initiate those Pull Requests to bring enhancements into the repo. I’d imagine some subset of the community here may play that role, but it probably wouldn’t just be an open free-for-all.


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## Leigh (May 21, 2022)

AcousTech said:


> Leigh,
> 
> Good feedback. That makes sense. I think, then, that Ivan’s question remains regarding who would “own” the repo, and thus initiate those Pull Requests to bring enhancements into the repo. I’d imagine some subset of the community here may play that role, but it probably wouldn’t just be an open free-for-all.


I think Github allows for free public repositories so anyone can create one. 

For example, Ivan creates and owns the repo. I clone the repo and make some additions or changes. Then I generate a Pull Request to Ivan saying I have made changes to his repo and asking him if he's interested in adding my changes to his repo. He can review my changes and, if is he interested, he can Pull those changes into his repo as a permanent change.

**Leigh


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## sinkd (May 22, 2022)

This thread, along with the discussion going on about expression maps over at the Dorico forum, made me wonder… Someone was lamenting the articulated playback of eighth notes in jazz writing

I duplicated the Noteperformer playback template and changed one setting: In the ‘Natural’ Base switch, I changed Controller 19 to “1” instead of “0” so that it matched the legato base switch. Now when I write plain eighth notes (assigning my new ‘Noteperformer Jazz’ as the Endpoint Config) they play back legato and connected, instead of individually articulated. One little tweak! Hope that helps some of the NP users here.


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## sinkd (May 22, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> Ivan, You'd add a solo flute as a single player and a3 flutes as a section player in your score setup. Then the right instruments will be loaded.
> 
> If you have multiple endpoints in your template, their order in the list will determine their precedence.


Then, I think, you could make an a3 playback technique that triggers a relative channel change to switch to an ensemble patch. It would be nice if Dorico setup let you embed flutes a3 in the first flute player as an instrument change.


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## ed buller (May 22, 2022)

sinkd said:


> Then, I think, you could make an a3 playback technique that triggers a relative channel change to switch to an ensemble patch. It would be nice if Dorico setup let you embed flutes a3 in the first flute player as an instrument change.


I have a3 as a popover. Switches to another chanel. Very easy to set up. 

best

e


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## youngpokie (May 22, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Yes, it's weird that you can't have like a main library for all expression maps shared among projects and playback templates.


I think this depends on the approach used in setting the playback template.

For example, I basically followed the same approach as in my VEPro setup and sequentially routed all of my instruments in a new empty project in Dorico. I had to choose upfront which library would be my "Flute 1" _always_, which would "Flute 2" and so on. I followed score order and limited myself to 4x woodwind orchestra size.

Then I assigned the expression maps, saved the resulting playback template and made it the default in Preferences/Play. So now, whenever I open any project or start a new one, the instruments and maps are loaded and routed based on that - the template is program-wide and shared between all projects. Because I did all of the routing in one fell swoop, I have only one endpoint config in my entire playback template. 

The advantage of this is, in my view, is the ease of opening existing projects or creating new ones based on this fixed master template. The disadvantage is I am stuck with the instruments I chose.

But I understand that other people may be using other strategies - for example, setting up endpoints one by one based on the library and adding them gradually to the playback template (for example: Berlin Woodwinds, as one endpoint, followed by Spitfire Symphonic woodwinds as another, etc). I haven't tried it, but my understanding is that moving these endpoints up or down within the template will influence which instruments get connected first when a project is opened?

It would be interesting to compare notes if anyone is willing to share the approach they used to set up their playback template. Thanks in advance.


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## synergy543 (May 22, 2022)

I don't have much to share yet as I'm still trying to figure all of this out. I did get the first few bars of Lytatoshinsky's Sym3 programmed with BBCSO but quickly decided I need to mix libraries and make adjustments. And this is where the difficulty comes in for me, as moving up to the next level is about 100x more difficult and time-consuming. I'm still confused about how to mix instruments from different libraries. Some things are obvious such as the need for using VE Pro and (in my case) setting up library sections on different computers. However, there are some puzzling questions I have yet to find answers to as well as some conclusions I've reached:

1. VE Pro is essential. Adding VSTs to Dorico directly is a tremendous waste of time (watching the beachballs spin as they load). Particularly when you need to make constant adjustments.

2. Custom patches are needed for most instruments. I find that I need to make many adjustments from simple things like turning off built-in reverb to mapping CC response curves (in VSL) to achieve the response I desire.

3. Dynamic levels between libraries (and articulations - why is BBCSO Vln marcato so low?) is a huge red herring. Achieving consistent response between even a single library and different articulations is a total cluster$%&*. Levels are flying all over the place, and taming them is an immense challenge. Sure you can go in and change each note CC 11, 7, but one would hope there would be a bit more consistency at the library programming level (particularly between different articulations). How do you compensate for different articulation volumes when there is no adjustment available for each articulation? (gotta love Kontakt in this respect when you can get into it).

4. How do you set up the expression maps for multiple library instruments and articulations? If you combine them (say BBCSO + VSL Prime) which expression map takes precedence? What happens when you have LOTS of different libraries?

5. How could you utilize different articulations from each library? Say, pizz from BBCSO vlns but legatos from Spitfire Appassionata? And what about doubling articulations (say, spicc and marcato)? Would you need to use different instruments (to "embellish") just as you would use different tracks in a DAW? Would you then hide these "embellished" instruments from the main score? (otherwise your score would be a dreadful mess and defeat the purpose of even using a score - it would basically look like DAW MIDI lanes).

I have so many other thoughts and questions I'm trying to resolve but this is a forum not my diary. Basically, it seems we need to find the practical sweet spot between what we might desire and what is possible. Right now, this is not so clear so I'll keep aiming for the ceiling until I give up and find an angle of repose.

I'm hoping someone might see our signs of struggle and address some of these issues in the next release of Discovering Dorico (hmmmm @John Barron....unfortunately I don't think he visits here).

Thoughts, suggestions and advice welcome before the men in the white suits arrive.

Well, you asked to compare notes.


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## sinkd (May 22, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I have a3 as a popover. Switches to another chanel. Very easy to set up.
> 
> best
> 
> e


How do you switch back?


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## ed buller (May 22, 2022)

one of the parameters of the pop-over is how long it lasts. You can either set it so it only lasts as long as highlighted or set another command like solo. Text can do anything you want






so here the French Horn switches from solo to twelve players 

best

e


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## Ivan Duch (May 22, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> But I understand that other people may be using other strategies - for example, setting up endpoints one by one based on the library and adding them gradually to the playback template (for example: Berlin Woodwinds, as one endpoint, followed by Spitfire Symphonic woodwinds as another, etc). I haven't tried it, but my understanding is that moving these endpoints up or down within the template will influence which instruments get connected first when a project is opened?
> 
> It would be interesting to compare notes if anyone is willing to share the approach they used to set up their playback template. Thanks in advance.


I'm actually doing exactly that, endpoints per library and section.

I feel that will give me more versatility down the road when I might want the agility of Aaron Venture Woodwinds for example, whereas in another project I might want something more sample-based.

This is only theory, though. I need to fully test it in several projects before I reach any conclusion.


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## Ivan Duch (May 22, 2022)

ed buller said:


> one of the parameters of the pop-over is how long it lasts. You can either set it so it only lasts as long as highlighted or set another command like solo. Text can do anything you want
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ohhh, this is clever, so you're switching between solo and different ensembles with custom playing techniques, right? Or is a2, a3 part of the default Dorico?

They call for different midi channels in a specific VEP instance, am I right?

Do you handle the switch between string libraries in the same way?

I was thinking of triggering Spitfire Appassionata in a similar way. Something like writing legato and adding an "Appassionata" custom playing technique. Instead of having a new player just for Appassionata.


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## ed buller (May 22, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Ohhh, this is clever, so you're switching between solo and different ensembles with custom playing techniques, right? Or is a2, a3 part of the default Dorico?
> 
> They call for different midi channels in a specific VEP instance, am I right?
> 
> ...


yes. You don't need any new players. My 1st Violins stave access about 50 sounds. All the text above is swapping articulations. 

View attachment Flight Risk Strings - Flight Risk v8Dom fiddle BBC.mp3


I've posted this elsewhere but this is just the strings live

e


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## Ivan Duch (May 22, 2022)

AcousTech said:


> Leigh,
> 
> Good feedback. That makes sense. I think, then, that Ivan’s question remains regarding who would “own” the repo, and thus initiate those Pull Requests to bring enhancements into the repo. I’d imagine some subset of the community here may play that role, but it probably wouldn’t just be an open free-for-all.





Leigh said:


> I think Github allows for free public repositories so anyone can create one.
> 
> For example, Ivan creates and owns the repo. I clone the repo and make some additions or changes. Then I generate a Pull Request to Ivan saying I have made changes to his repo and asking him if he's interested in adding my changes to his repo. He can review my changes and, if is he interested, he can Pull those changes into his repo as a permanent change.
> 
> **Leigh


Good points. I think I could create it at grant ownership to all members of VI-control who are interested in having it so if anything happens on my end the community can keep it alive and maintained. I'll have to take a look at the ownership settings.


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## Ivan Duch (May 22, 2022)

ed buller said:


> yes. You don't need any new players. My 1st Violins stave access about 50 sounds. All the text above is swapping articulations.
> 
> View attachment Flight Risk Strings - Flight Risk v8Dom fiddle BBC.mp3
> 
> ...


This is great, thanks for sharing. I think that's definitely the most convenient/versatily approach I've seen so far.

Is it possible to define a different plugin altogether in an expression map or you're limited to a different midi channel in the same port (plugin)? 

If not possible, In VEP I assume you might dedicate a full instance to Violins I in a scenario like this, with each channel being a different plugin (Kontakt, Spitfire Player, Sine, whatever) and using keyswitches to access the articulations within each, correct?

I also wonder if the expression maps are able to establish layering, for example, playing more than one channel at the same time. Reaticulate for Reaper is able to do that, it's useful for triggering layers of articulations.


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## Ivan Duch (May 22, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> I don't have much to share yet as I'm still trying to figure all of this out. I did get the first few bars of Lytatoshinsky's Sym3 programmed with BBCSO but quickly decided I need to mix libraries and make adjustments. And this is where the difficulty comes in for me, as moving up to the next level is about 100x more difficult and time-consuming. I'm still confused about how to mix instruments from different libraries. Some things are obvious such as the need for using VE Pro and (in my case) setting up library sections on different computers. However, there are some puzzling questions I have yet to find answers to as well as some conclusions I've reached:
> 
> 1. VE Pro is essential. Adding VSTs to Dorico directly is a tremendous waste of time (watching the beachballs spin as they load). Particularly when you need to make constant adjustments.
> 
> ...


Well, the points you make about layering articulations and accessing different libraries are stuff I'm wondering myself about as well. 

The accessing of different libraries has just been addressed by @ed buller I think. You can use custom playing techniques linked to expression maps which trigger different midi channels. 

The layering I'm still wondering about.


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## ennbr (May 22, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I've posted this elsewhere but this is just the strings live


Thanks ed I converted your .pdf to midi to have a listen with VSL Prime needs some work missing some marks but I was able to get the gist


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## Ivan Duch (May 24, 2022)

To those switching between VSTs with expression maps by switching midi channels:

How do you do it exactly? I find the process very erratic so far. Sometimes they don't switch channels for me, sometimes I have trouble returning to the initial channel.

Also, I wonder how you handle articulations within the new midi channel, for instance, if you switch to a3 and load a flute section, how do you trigger the corresponding articulations within that new VST?


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## ReleaseCandidate (May 24, 2022)

Does anybody need help setting up the GitHub repo/group ('Organization')?

Btw. the Presonus repo is missing a license (file), which makes it unusable.


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## Leigh (May 24, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> To those switching between VSTs with expression maps by switching midi channels:
> 
> How do you do it exactly? I find the process very erratic so far. Sometimes they don't switch channels for me, sometimes I have trouble returning to the initial channel.
> 
> Also, I wonder how you handle articulations within the new midi channel, for instance, if you switch to a3 and load a flute section, how do you trigger the corresponding articulations within that new VST?


I'm very interested in this, too.

**Leigh


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## ed buller (May 24, 2022)

Leigh said:


> I'm very interested in this, too.
> 
> **Leigh


so the thing to keep in mind is first you HAVE to have a channel to switch from. So in the expression map make sure under EVERY expression the mici channels is specified. For example, you are using VSL Synchron (midi channel 1) For Violin 1....but you want Spitfire Appassionato for the legatos, in the expression Map it MUST say this. ALL off the expression maps that use VSL MUST have the midi channel 1. And ALL of the spitfire Appassionato patches MUST have midi channel 2.

Best

ed


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## youngpokie (May 24, 2022)

ed buller said:


> you HAVE to have a channel to switch from. So in the expression map make sure under EVERY expression the mici channels is specified.


I'm not in front of Dorico rn, but if I recall correctly I used a different approach - instead of specifying a MIDI channel for each and every entry in the expression map, I used the incrementing channel on both Note On and Note Off for the given articulation.

Apologies if I'm misremembering, but I think the former approach is effectively open-ended in the sense that each subsequent articulation cancels the previous one - it requires setting a fixed MIDI channel for each articulation. The latter approach is to "close the loop" and always cancel the incrementing MIDI channel on Note Off with a decrementing MIDI channel, so that it's not necessary to fix MIDI channel for every entry in the expression map. I hope I'm not getting this confused, though!

Apart from this, it's important to maintain an updated and logical list of mutual exclusion groups. In my case, it's almost always done manually. I would imagine Flutes a3 Legato as a playing technique would have to be considered for mutual exclusion with the regular solo legato, and so on.

EDIT: @Ivan Duch also - remember that in Dorico you can use Base switches and Add-On switches. Effectively what happens is they are merged in the MIDI stream. This creates a whole other level of flexibility and opportunity - I use them for vibrato/non-vibrato, for ord/con sord and a bunch of other things, which depend on how the library is programmed but also in the overall framework you adopt for your expression maps. But you really need to think these through before implementing them, they rely on ironclad logic rules that are not always immediately obvious. In addition to this, with percussion instruments it's also possible to combine expression maps and percussion maps in a single MIDI stream in a similar sense.

EDIT 2: Referring to Flutes a3 (@Ivan Duch your message below). Thinking out loud, there's probably a number of options that can be explored. For example: Solo Legato = Base Switch Legato. A3 Legato (defined as "direction" in playing technique) = Add On Technique, Incremental MIDI Switch by one channel on Note On, and Decremental MIDI Switch by one channel on Note Off (to return to default). This of course means that the patches will have to be loaded in the Kontakt instance accordingly: Solo Legato = Ch1, A3 Legato = Ch 2. But again, this is just thinking out loud as I'm not in front of Dorico rn.


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## Ivan Duch (May 24, 2022)

ed buller said:


> so the thing to keep in mind is first you HAVE to have a channel to switch from. So in the expression map make sure under EVERY expression the mici channels is specified. For example, you are using VSL Synchron (midi channel 1) For Violin 1....but you want Spitfire Appassionato for the legatos, in the expression Map it MUST say this. ALL off the expression maps that use VSL MUST have the midi channel 1. And ALL of the spitfire Appassionato patches MUST have midi channel 2.
> 
> Best
> 
> ed



Thanks a lot Ed!

What you just said works on my end for when I need a single articulation from some other library. For example, all articulations are from bbcso but I just want the legatos from Appassionata.

In that case I add an expression with another midi channel and the keyswitch for legato. While all other articulations point to another midi channel and the proper keyswitches like you mentioned.

But what if I want to switch to a3 from a solo instrument with an expression. That A3 patch has its own set of legato, stacatto, etc. How do I keep using that patch's stacatto and other articulations instead of going back to the solo stacc and its other articulations?

So far I did some experiments with making the A3 switch to just a midi channel. And the other articulations from the expression map don't point to any specific channel, only the keyswitch . Only init points to the right channel.

That seems to keep the midi channel switch working while activating different keyswitches within the A3 patch. The caveat is that the solo and A3 patches have to share the same keyswitches . 

That said, this last approach seems a bit erratic on my end. Still have to test it more.

I hope I was clear enough.


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## ed buller (May 24, 2022)

you have to treat each thing as it's own patch. Also remember you can add two or more definitions'. So Sordino+trem...Or a3+legato. Also the slurs will ALAWYS switch to a legato

best

e


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## Ivan Duch (May 24, 2022)

ed buller said:


> you have to treat each thing as it's own patch. Also remember you can add two or more definitions'. So Sordino+trem...Or a3+legato. Also the slurs will ALAWYS switch to a legato
> 
> best
> 
> e



Gotcha, so you avoid the default staccato dots or legato slurs on the notation. And go for expressions like A3+stacc?


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## Ivan Duch (May 24, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I'm not in front of Dorico rn, but if I recall correctly I used a different approach - instead of specifying a MIDI channel for each and every entry in the expression map, I used the incrementing channel on both Note On and Note Off for the given articulation.
> 
> Apologies if I'm misremembering, but I think the former approach is effectively open-ended in the sense that each subsequent articulation cancels the previous one - it requires setting a fixed MIDI channel for each articulation. The latter approach is to "close the loop" and always cancel the incrementing MIDI channel on Note Off with a decrementing MIDI channel, so that it's not necessary to fix MIDI channel for every entry in the expression map. I hope I'm not getting this confused, though!
> 
> ...


Thank you!

I have to get my head around those add-on techniques. I don't completely understand the difference yet. 

Will be trying all the approaches tomorrow. 

If I can I'd like to keep the default notation symbols working. Like slurs triggering a legato and dots triggering staccatos. Would make the engraving job easier.


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## ed buller (May 24, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Like slurs triggering a legato and dots triggering staccatos. Would make the engraving job easier.


yes but remember if you want legato on a different sound you MUST specify that. Otherwise it will always be your choice legato. So you could use a Con Sordino popover and slurs and as long as you have an expression map that has both......your fine

e


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## youngpokie (May 28, 2022)

hey @Ivan Duch I just wanted to check in to see if you're still doing OK with using Reaper as your instrument server instead of VEPro and how the expression maps are going. Any issues you might have encountered or does everything work? I'm about to get into this myself so thought I'd ask again just in case. Thanks!


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## Ivan Duch (May 28, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> hey @Ivan Duch I just wanted to check in to see if you're still doing OK with using Reaper as your instrument server instead of VEPro and how the expression maps are going. Any issues you might have encountered or does everything work? I'm about to get into this myself so thought I'd ask again just in case. Thanks!


Yes, it's still what I'm using. Didn't end up running very extensive tests comparing Reaper and VEP, though.

Mostly because I had to setup a big template on VEP and didn't find any good reasons for doing it, especially since I got to work on Dorico using Reaper without any issues. I'm liking the workflow quite a bit. Dorico really helps me with the composition and orchestration part of the workflow. And then the DAW I still find more convenient for midi tweaking and audio processing.

I named all the midi ports in LoopMIDI to keep better track of the routing: as in violins, etc. Also because I'm testing using custom playing techniques for switching between libraries and that approach needs them to be in the same midi port.

*Pros I found: *

1. Cheap
2. I can import all the midi by just pressing record in the DAW, and the midi shows on all the corresponding tracks. To me that's way easier than importing midi into Reaper. After the import I just have to select all tracks and adjust them to the grid. Takes a few seconds.
3. I get to use my usual template, with all the custom stuff I'm used to.
4. So far the performance is WAAAY better than Dorico. And in my initial tests it was a little bit above VEP. To be honest I find the performance in Dorico to be quite bad in general. It crashes quite often for me when dealing with VSTs.
5. In my case (only one machine), Reaper and VEP together decreased performance, what meant that my Reaper template wasn't going to be routed to the same VEP instance as Dorico. So I would have to load everything on Reaper again for the final production. This way everything is already loaded.

EDIT: Was forgetting about the negative track delay we discussed before. In Reaper it doesn't seem to work during playback, which makes sense to me. But once everything is "printed" to MIDI from Dorico to Reaper the negative track delays I have configured start working.


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## youngpokie (May 28, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> es, it's still what I'm using


Thanks for this. Do you mind sharing how you group tracks and route in Reaper, after the initial MIDI track? Do you record individual audio tracks per instrument or per group, etc? Cheers!


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## Ivan Duch (May 28, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> Do you mind sharing how you group tracks and route in Reaper, after the initial MIDI track?


I'm not completely sure what you mean here. In Reaper I think all kinds of routing would work, depending on how you have your template configured. If I were you I'd start with doing it in Cubase where you probably already have a template.

My Reaper template uses Track Templates which I load depending on the project needs. What I've been doing for the two albums I'm currently working on is to create a "server" for the whole project.

What I did next was to configure the input to the corresponding midi channel and disabled the record function, leaving only the monitoring as you suggested.



youngpokie said:


> Do you record individual audio tracks per instrument or per group, etc? Cheers!


You're talking about stems specifically? In Reaper I can easily render Stems per instrument group, instrument family, or individual instruments, depending on the need. I have groups for everything and also a section of buses that bypass reverb and other effects if I need to render stems without effects.


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## Ivan Duch (May 28, 2022)

I should point out that if I had more than one computer in my workflow, VEP would probably be the best option by far. Not sure if you are working with more than one computer.


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## youngpokie (May 28, 2022)

Thanks for your response - and also my apologies for not stating the question clearly (I had a feeling this would happen!).

What I was looking for was your approach to routing - specifically whether or not you have a "standard" process within the workflow, such as rendering audio from groups or only from individual instruments. And then you did mention that your routing allows you to render multiple configurations, including individual instruments, groups, fx - I'd love more information about how you set this up. I used to use an old (and giant) Spitfire template for Cubase, which was extremely elaborate and everything was routed to everything else. But I haven't used it in a very long time and coming back to using DAW instead of VEPro I though I'd ask about your approach before digging it up.

EDIT: This is the groups routing of Spitfire template I was referring to


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## Ivan Duch (May 28, 2022)

@youngpokie I'm not good at mixing but the way I do it is to have some preconfigured folders in Reaper with its corresponding routing. 

For example, that SM Strings folder. Normaly the instruments tracks with Kontakt aren't loaded, I load those from track templates. I would load the folder (SM Strings) as well if I could but Track Templates in Reaper don't save the routing as far as I know. 

The reason I do this instead of having a disabled template is that disabled tracks on my end consume some RAM and also increase the saving filesize. 

That main folder as you can see in the other screenshot is also routed to some general stems buses.

So basically, depending on the tracks (individual instrument track, first folder or second) I select I'll get a stem for that. The way it's routed, if I select those buses in the second screenshot I won't be getting any FXs, like reverb or delay, except for those which might be inserted into the track.


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## Ivan Duch (May 28, 2022)

Is it me or add-on expressions don't send CC data at all?

I'm creating add-ons for Appassionata and other string libraries I have, but they don't trigger any cc data, even if I input it manually.

My intention was to be able to use legato and the add-on on top of it for switching between libraries, but if the CC data doesn't work it is a no-go.

EDIT:

If I create an add-on switch for switching between different libraries (different midi channels), when it switches to the other library the CC (dynamics) don't work.

Now, if I create a non-vibrato add-on for the same library (same midi channel) the CC does work.

Looks like Dorico doesn't like the midi channel switch for some reason?


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