# How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care Edit: Steinberg did it within Cubase 7



## germancomponist (Oct 26, 2012)

... is the title of a book what I found today elswhere.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how-equal-temperament-ruined-harmony-ross-w-duffin/1100872055

This theme has always interested me: "Just vs Equal Temperament".

We all know that a real orchestra plays not in the equal tempered scale, but we all do it when we use our orchestra libs. And, there are big "sound" differences when it comes to the overtone series.

Have you experimented with microtuning? And if, what is your experience?

Could this be another step to come more closer to the real thing (soundwise)?


----------



## windshore (Oct 26, 2012)

Well, If it wasn't for Bach, we might still be all over the place with tuning. Truth is, it's still a part of playing most instruments wind instruments at least. As you go higher, it sounds more "right" to be sharp than flat, and visa versa. 

It is kind of fascinating because we often have to fight those tendencies when playing.


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 26, 2012)

windshore @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> It is kind of fascinating because we often have to fight those tendencies when playing.



I know, the major third is always too high... .


----------



## JJP (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*

I've played around with Hermode tuning. In some situations it provides a nice effect, but you have to be sure that everything responds to it.


----------



## rgames (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*



germancomponist @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> We all know that a real orchestra plays not in the equal tempered scale


Well, kind-of. It's difficult to argue that an 80-piece orchestra is using just intonation when playing tutti sections. More than likely, most of the musicians are adjusting for their instruments' natural tendencies but not really adjusting for just intonation because it's impossible to do across that many musicians.

In smaller groups, they are more likely to do so.

rgames


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*



rgames @ Sat Oct 27 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> > We all know that a real orchestra plays not in the equal tempered scale
> ...



Yes, I agree, Richard. 

But, for example, a french horn section starts with the equal tempered scale (when they play a chord) and then they quickly adjust, to get off this well known phasing/synth-sound-like effect...,. mostly but not always... .

I will do a test with microtuning with the samplemodeling instruments. They are 100% correct tuned, so it will be interesting.


----------



## Rob (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*

there's a kontakt script already for that, isn't it? "dynamic pure tuning"
Actually useful, I remember having applied it for brass playing triads, and it makes a difference...


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*



Rob @ Sat Oct 27 said:


> there's a kontakt script already for that, isn't it? "dynamic pure tuning"
> Actually useful, I remember having applied it for brass playing triads, and it makes a difference...



Yes Rob, there is one, and it makes a big different also when wood instruments are in the mix... .

Some years ago I did another tuning thing experiment with "the trumpet".

Listen: https://www.box.com/s/9g6fnuhl93jpudfpwzir

There are two short snippets of the same theme, but played different. How would you describe the difference?


----------



## Rob (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*



germancomponist @ 27th October 2012 said:


> Rob @ Sat Oct 27 said:
> 
> 
> > there's a kontakt script already for that, isn't it? "dynamic pure tuning"
> ...



hard to say, the first has better tuning, and vibrato is more natural... the second seems uneven in tuning and has a somewhat pitchbendy vibrato...


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 27, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*



Rob @ Sat Oct 27 said:


> hard to say, the first has better tuning, and vibrato is more natural... the second seems uneven in tuning and has a somewhat pitchbendy vibrato...



Yeah, I did the vibrato with pitchbend in both versions. First version = alternating from zero to ++, second version = alternating from zero to -- . I call it 1.happy and 2.sadly played... . 

One can get great results (feeling wise) only by the tuning.


----------



## SXJohn (Nov 10, 2012)

windshore @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Well, If it wasn't for Bach, we might still be all over the place with tuning. Truth is, it's still a part of playing most instruments wind instruments at least. As you go higher, it sounds more "right" to be sharp than flat, and visa versa.
> 
> It is kind of fascinating because we often have to fight those tendencies when playing.



It is now well researched that Bach DIDN'T use equal temperament for his Wohltemperirte Clavier. despite what the poorly researched Grove dictionary says. 

His son CPE Bach wrote that his father tuned *most* of the fifths sharp, not all of them. Bach certainly knew of ET which in German translates to equal beating temperament. Many composers of that era knew of, and rejected ET in the early to middle 18th century, because it provided little tone colour and because of the awful thirds. Harpsichords have recently been discovered, of that era, with the accidentals split providing a sharper sharp and a flatter flat.

There's interesting, somewhat controversial, research at larips.com.
This is also referred to in the aforementioned book.

Tuning a virtual harpsichord or organ to the Lehman/Bach tuning is an interesting experiment, as well as dropping A to the baroque 415 Hz. Wire of that era couldn't take the tension of today's wire.

Regards,
SXjohn.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

*Re: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care*

Great news for Cubase users: In Cubase 7 there is a new pure tuning plugin.



> Pure tuning for that extra punch
> Thanks to the Hermode tuning technology, the intonation of your synthesized notes are changed dynamically on the fly for utmost compatibility with well-tempered scales, while retaining a high degree of purity for third and fifth intervals. Especially when combining non-fixed-intonation instruments, like brass and woodwind, and fixed-intonation instruments, such as guitars and piano, entire orchestral arrangements sound immediately clearer and more brilliant than before.
> 
> Eliminating the compromises and strengthening the advantages of well temperament, Hermode intonation results in a clean and pure tuning that can definitely add unimagined punch and clarity to all kinds of electronic music as well.



Very cool!


----------



## jamwerks (Nov 14, 2012)

There's a cool video on the VSL website about the tuning features in VIP. In you have a sequence that stays in one tonality, you can make it sound a lot better imo by using a non-tempered tuning.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> In you have a sequence that stays in one tonality, you can make it sound a lot better imo by using a non-tempered tuning.



Absolutely!


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Nov 14, 2012)

SXJohn @ Sat Nov 10 said:


> windshore @ Fri Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, If it wasn't for Bach, we might still be all over the place with tuning. Truth is, it's still a part of playing most instruments wind instruments at least. As you go higher, it sounds more "right" to be sharp than flat, and visa versa.
> ...




All good points John and always a fascinating subject. 

I'd just add that it's well worth bearing in mind that the notion of 'Baroque Pitch' and that which is arbitrarily fixed at 415hz is almost contradiction in terms; indeed pitch, historically, has varied wildly between cities in the same country (cf Italy for example) and between country to country (cf France vs Germany) simultaneously. Historical pitch variation plus the vast number of meantone and irregular meantone tuning systems plus instrument construction impacts hugely on compositional practice especially in the 17th and 18th centuries and of course undermines the notion of 'perfect pitch' being somehow natural. 

Cheers


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Nov 14, 2012)

I dunno. I m a pianist and the tuning I her when I play a good one sounds fine to me 1948-born ears.

Do good piano tuners do something that mitigates the effect of equal temperament perhaps?.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> I dunno. I m a pianist and the tuning I her when I play a good one sounds fine to me 1948-born ears.
> 
> Do good piano tuners do something that mitigates the effect of equal temperament perhaps?.



Hi Jay,

listen to this:



and this:


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Nov 14, 2012)

OK, GuntherI understand what the second example is showing me. My daughter's father-in-law wrote his Master's thesis on this and we all took part in some listening tests.


But:

1. The first one sounds out of tune to my ears.

2. When I listen to recordings my Horowitz, Gould, etc. they do not sound out of tune to me.

3. My understnding is that a piano not tuned basically in ET would require an unwieldy amount of keys and since in my universe, piano rules over all other instruments  .....


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

Tempered tuning doesn't sound out of tune per se, Jay, but when it comes to many instruments playing together chords..., then the "just" sounds better.

And players in an orchestra do this automatically.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Nov 14, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> Tempered tuning doesn't sound out of tune per se, Jay, but when it comes to many instruments playing together, then the "just" sounds better.
> 
> And players in an orchestra do this automatically.



I understand and I know that is true as over the years they have told me so. .But what happens in a piano concerto?


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Nov 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Tempered tuning doesn't sound out of tune per se, Jay, but when it comes to many instruments playing together, then the "just" sounds better.
> ...



Then you hear tempered tuning. The different between just and tempered is so minimal in a piano concerto (only one instrument). But there are people with an absolute pitch who get headache when they listen to a piano concerto.


----------



## jamwerks (Nov 14, 2012)

As I understand well-tempered, it's just a tad out of tune "in each key", but that allows you to play equally in each key. It becomes apparent to me especially with a piano paired with a violin and/or cello, playing tonal music. Over a dominant chord a violin playing a real leading tone is several cents higher than the tempered piano one.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Nov 14, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 14 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Wed Nov 14 said:
> ...



So the orchestral players do not retune during the passages when the soloist is playing but do when he is not?

OK, the title of the thread is partly "why you should care". As someone without perfect pitch, i think I do not


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> So the orchestral players do not retune during the passages when the soloist is playing but do when he is not?
> 
> OK, the title of the thread is partly "why you should care". As someone without perfect pitch, i think I do not



Oopsssss, I thought you was talking abot a piano concerto without an orchestra..... . 

An orchestra always do it. o/~ o-[][]-o


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Nov 14, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 14 said:
> 
> 
> > So the orchestral players do not retune during the passages when the soloist is playing but do when he is not?
> ...



There is no such thing as "a piano concerto without an orchestra". A concerto by definition is a composition for a solo or soli accompanied by an orchestra.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Nov 14 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Nov 14 said:
> ...



Yeah yeah, a language translation thing, Jay. You are right here!


----------



## jamwerks (Nov 14, 2012)

Having perfect pitch wouldn't make you more sensitive to the differences between tempered and non-tempered tuning. Listen to the video on the VSL website, it's not a subtle difference.

Ex: Piano plays a "C", a violin now plays a "G" above, and will automatically play a just 5th (with non beatings). The same "G" on the piano is 2 cents(?) flat and creates a slight beating sound.

String quartets would be the group that tunes to itself constantly, and in adding a piano (piano quintets), the tuning problem is border-line flagrant.

Everybody is more or less sensitive to pitch, and this doesn't have any influence on how good a musician you can be.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> Everybody is more or less sensitive to pitch, and this doesn't have any influence on how good a musician you can be.



I am not so sure about this. 

With minimal pitch differences one can create specific feelings. Many musicians do it without even knowing it. But at least they are good players.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Nov 14, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> Having perfect pitch wouldn't make you more sensitive to the differences between tempered and non-tempered tuning. Listen to the video on the VSL website, it's not a subtle difference.
> 
> Ex: Piano plays a "C", a violin now plays a "G" above, and will automatically play a just 5th (with non beatings). The same "G" on the piano is 2 cents(?) flat and creates a slight beating sound.
> 
> ...



Well, I think the better the performer, the more sensitive and aware they are to intonational issues. 

Historically, 5ths were never really the issue (and they were always the basis of compromise); it's the so-called major thirds that posed the greatest problems. And of course in 12tET they are 14 cents too sharp and beat horribly.


----------



## jamwerks (Nov 14, 2012)

I mean to say that wether someone is or isn't bothered by very small differences in pitch, has nothing to do with their inventiveness, choice of harmonies, structure building, etc.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Nov 14 said:


> I mean to say that wether someone is or isn't bothered by very small differences in pitch, has nothing to do with their inventiveness, choice of harmonies, structure building, etc.



Sure, but this is another theme. A wide field, for sure!

Do you know a very good mastering engineer? These tend to have these good ears. They hear the grass grow.


----------



## jamwerks (Nov 14, 2012)

I don't mean to be picky, but ME's are very sensitive to eq balances, which is another aspect of hearing. And they may or may not be sensitive to intervales, which is what the tuning thing at hand is all about.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2012)

Yes, as I said, a wide field. But the tuning thing also makes "sound"......... . 

Listen to a chord, played with a complete orchestra (a good recording....) and play the same chord with your libraries. I am sure also you will hear the different.


----------

