# VSL Woodwinds vs. Synchronized Woodwinds



## borisb2 (Aug 10, 2020)

I am happy with my "old" and dry VSL Woodwinds (not SE). They got their place (and Lexicon room) in my template - and sound lovely. But .. I am still wondering how much would I benefit from updating to the synchronized version? Not so much for the room (thats the first thing I would turn off), but the "better legato transitions", apparantly better matching velocity layers etc... I saw on VSL website the update to synchronized woodwinds would still cost me 245.- .. is it really worth it? Are there any A/B comparisons somwhere that compare the legatos etc.?

thanks


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## Casiquire (Aug 10, 2020)

I was going to post a link to a thread all about this where a very helpful user posted an example of how different the crossfade sounds between them and *I cannot find it*. It was fairly recent. Anyway the difference is pretty significant. The crossfades are smooth and the dynamics and volumes are beautifully balanced. The Synchron version is truly an amazing upgrade


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## Casiquire (Aug 10, 2020)

FOUND IT. The difference really is stunning






SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds - NEW: Free Expansion 2


Hi there! Time to draw the attention to the Vienna Woodwinds, and we have 4 special offers for you! Starting today, ending on April 7th, this is a great opportunity to check out if these collections will fit in your virtual orchestra. Get your FREE demo licenses on our product pages...




vi-control.net


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## borisb2 (Aug 10, 2020)

Will have a look. Thanks for that!


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## Akarin (Aug 10, 2020)

There's a 30 days trial. I just installed it and yes, it's definitely different (and better). As much as I find most of VSL libraries lacking "soul" for lack of a better word, the woodwinds are in a league of their own.


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## Beans (Aug 10, 2020)

Where do you see this trial? On the synchronized woodwinds page, I only see a purchase option. 

Or, are you talking about their generous return policy (which is actually down to 14 days)?


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## Akarin (Aug 10, 2020)

Beans said:


> Where do you see this trial? On the synchronized woodwinds page, I only see a purchase option.
> 
> Or, are you talking about their generous return policy (which is actually down to 14 days)?



My bad. Read too fast, thought you were talking about the SE editions.


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## Mark Schmieder (Aug 10, 2020)

Don't forget also, that if you have Special Editions, you can quite cheaply upgrade to the SYNCHRON-ized versions by the end of August. Volume 1 and 1a include a lower-articulation subset of SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds, but Volume 2 and 2a add the Alto Flute and other stuff that isn't in SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds.

I bought the Volume 1 upgrade last night, as I wanted the SYNCHRON-ized versions of the original Snare Drum, Bass Drum, and Timpani, and will likely buy Volume 2 soon, to get early access to the Alto Flute and other woodwinds and brass.

Unfortunately some articulations I need and use a LOT are missing (Dynamics for one). But I hope to run through what's in Volume 1 this week to see how crippled it is for phrasing.

I'm not going to repeat what I wrote when SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds first came out, as I have done almost nothing musically since the pandemic lockdown started, and wouldn't consider it fair to say anything else until I've had more time to work with what's there, as my sole focus at that point was the flutes. I found the Flute 2 timbre different even when defeating all the special settings.


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## CT (Aug 10, 2020)

Interesting. The crossfades are what have put me off what would otherwise be one of the few VSL libraries I'd consider using. The update is promising, but I wonder how stripped-down the dynamic layers are compared to the originals, as in the Special Editions. I'm more worried about that than differences in articulations. If the articulations are the only content that's missing, then that's something for me to consider.


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## Casiquire (Aug 10, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Interesting. The crossfades are what have put me off what would otherwise be one of the few VSL libraries I'd consider using. The update is promising, but I wonder how stripped-down the dynamic layers are compared to the originals, as in the Special Editions. I'm more worried about that than differences in articulations. If the articulations are the only content that's missing, then that's something for me to consider.


There are no reduced layers with the Synchronized winds, only with the Special Editions. In fact the Synchronized winds apparently have even more layers in the legatos than the original VI version


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## doctoremmet (Aug 11, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> I was going to post a link to a thread all about this where a very helpful user posted an example of how different the crossfade sounds between them and *I cannot find it*. It was fairly recent. Anyway the difference is pretty significant. The crossfades are smooth and the dynamics and volumes are beautifully balanced. The Synchron version is truly an amazing upgrade


I believe that it was @mducharme who made that contribution? Over in the “best woodwinds” thread?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 11, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> There are no reduced layers with the Synchronized winds, only with the Special Editions. In fact the Synchronized winds apparently have even more layers in the legatos than the original VI version


The VI version has ensembles, that are missing from the S-ized version? I believe I remember that from another recent thread. You gotta admit that VSL is the one vendor who has us all confused to the max...


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## Mark Schmieder (Aug 11, 2020)

The ensembles are currently available in a slightly different form in the two newest members of Big Bang Orchestra.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 11, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> The ensembles are currently available in a slightly different form in the two newest members of Big Bang Orchestra.


Wait Mark? The BBO stuff is also a rehash of existing recorded material? I have always thought these were newly recorded samples. Or was your remark of a more generic nature, in the sense that VSL does offer “entry level” ensembles?


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## Ben (Aug 11, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Wait Mark? The BBO stuff is also a rehash of existing recorded material? I have always thought these were newly recorded samples. Or was your remark of a more generic nature, in the sense that VSL does offer “entry level” ensembles?


Synchron and BBO libraries are brand new recordings - all with multiple mics recorded at Synchron Stage. But the new BBO Woodwinds sound lovely - you should check these out in a few days when they are also available as demos!


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## doctoremmet (Aug 11, 2020)

Ben said:


> Synchron and BBO libraries are brand new recordings - all with multiple mics recorded at Synchron Stage. But the new BBO Woodwinds sound lovely - you should check these out in a few days when they are also available as demos!


Clear. Thanks.


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## Casiquire (Aug 11, 2020)

Correct, there are no ensembles, but there are two flutes, two clarinets, two bassons etc. Those ensembles are available as single instruments too but they aren't Synchronized


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## Mark Schmieder (Aug 11, 2020)

Sorry that my wording led to a misunderstanding; I was focusing on the aspect of missing articulations and instrument groupings, and a way to flesh out one's articulation and ensemble sets, as I thought that was the emphasis of the question.

We have to be patient to wait for the full SYNCHRON-ized legacy material and the full NEW recordings for Synchron. Some creativity is required at the moment, to piece together full articulation sets between multiple products of different vintage.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 11, 2020)

Sorry to be dumb but the Synchronized Winds from VSL that have been out for some time are Entirely New Recordings that make no use of any samples from the previous VSL Winds I+II?

I’m sure a lot of people such as me who own the original Winds thought that those same samples were used to make the Synchronized Winds.

VSL (Ben) please reconfirm statement above.


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## Ben (Aug 11, 2020)

SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds are created from the original recordings of Winds I and II. 

BBO N+O are new recordings in the Synchron Stage Vienna.


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## maestro2be (Aug 11, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Sorry to be dumb but the Synchronized Winds from VSL that have been out for some time are Entirely New Recordings that make no use of any samples from the previous VSL Winds I+II?
> 
> I’m sure a lot of people such as me who own the original Winds thought that those same samples were used to make the Synchronized Winds.
> 
> VSL (Ben) please reconfirm statement above.



The key to differentiating whether it's new samples or the legacy samples is "Synchron" vs "Synchron-ized". Anything with the "ized" on the ending is the legacy samples ported over to the new player.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 11, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> The key to differentiating whether it's new samples or the legacy samples is "Synchron" vs "Synchron-ized". Anything with the "ized" on the ending is the legacy samples ported over to the new player.


That’s what I thought, which is why I was mystified by a post that seemed to indicate otherwise.


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## richhickey (Aug 12, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> I am happy with my "old" and dry VSL Woodwinds (not SE). They got their place (and Lexicon room) in my template - and sound lovely. But .. I am still wondering how much would I benefit from updating to the synchronized version? Not so much for the room (thats the first thing I would turn off), but the "better legato transitions", apparantly better matching velocity layers etc... I saw on VSL website the update to synchronized woodwinds would still cost me 245.- .. is it really worth it? Are there any A/B comparisons somwhere that compare the legatos etc.?
> 
> thanks



If your upgrade is 245 then there are probably several things you don't have in VI series (full versions or instruments), so you'd be getting those.

But for me (had full VI winds), synchronized winds was a bit of a letdown. It's missing a lot of articulations compared to the VI series. The dynamic range is compressed. There is some smoothing out of xf and legato transitions, but the net effect is not great. The feel and sound is substantially less expressive and organic than the VI series originals, which are some of the best instruments VSL has ever released. Even though it's more work to stitch together the VI patches, I still prefer the originals over synchronized. YMMV


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## borisb2 (Aug 12, 2020)

richhickey said:


> The dynamic range is compressed. There is some smoothing out of xf and legato transitions, but the net effect is not great. The feel and sound is substantially less expressive and organic than the VI series originals


hmm .. was already convinced to upgrade .. but that doesnt sound so good. I remember reading that the dynamic range was more compressed in the synchronized version. I could live with that .. but having smoothed out legatos that effectivly dissipate itself is not what I would want .. I really do like the audible legato transitions in VSL woodwinds .. thats why I never used Fluffy Audio Oboe so far for example .. you just cant hear any legato (contrair to their clarinet) .. it just sounds artificial


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## Ben (Aug 12, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> but having smoothed out legatos that effectivly dissipate itself is not what I would want


The transitions are not smoothed out in this regard, but less bumpy, especially when driving velocity crossfade when playing legato.



borisb2 said:


> the dynamic range was more compressed in the synchronized version.


Not too much, just enough that you will not have a too high dynamic range which will sound unrealistic. The dynamic range of woodwinds is by far not as big as for example strings. Still, there is enough dynamic left.

Feel free to get it, try it out yourself and in case you don't like it there is always the 14 days return policy if bought on our website


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 1, 2020)

I would imagine a Synchron Woodwinds (Pro) will eventually come out so it seems buying Synchronized Woodwinds right now would be not particularly advisable?


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## ptram (Nov 2, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> FOUND IT. The difference really is stunning
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please note however that the first comparisons in that test are between the old SE library and the new Syncronized. The SE version is vastly inferior to the full VI (of which I offered some examples later).

Now that I own both (full VI and Syn), I should probably prepare a direct comparison.

Paolo


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## Frederick (Nov 2, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I would imagine a Synchron Woodwinds (Pro) will eventually come out so it seems buying Synchronized Woodwinds right now would be not particularly advisable?


I bought the Synchronized Woodwinds in the current sale, although I really wanted a Synchron Woodwinds Pro. My reasoning is that it may take more than a year before new woodwinds appear and the price could end up being too expensive for me. Another thing is that the room can be switched off with the synchronized woodwinds and therefore they could also be easily made to work with other vendors libraries. IMHO the quality of the synchronized woodwinds is better than many other vendor's woodwinds, so my thought is they'll turn out usefull in the long run as well.


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## novaburst (Nov 2, 2020)

richhickey said:


> which are some of the best instruments VSL has ever released. Even though it's more work to stitch together the VI patches, I still prefer the originals over synchronized.



Love the way the library's sound in the V I too 

But between me and you can we just keep it to our self as I am waiting for VSL to start slashing the V I price


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## Teldex (Nov 2, 2020)

richhickey said:


> The feel and sound is substantially less expressive and organic than the VI series originals, which are some of the best instruments VSL has ever released. Even though it's more work to stitch together the VI patches, I still prefer the originals over synchronized. YMMV


I owned several individually purchased VI series woodwind instruments, and a while back there was a sale on for the Synchron-ized Woodwinds bundle, so I bought the bundle. As a test I cloned the clips of passages that I did using the original instrument, and I put them through the Synchron-ized version of the same instrument - same articulations - and I compared them side by side. I immediately preferred the original versions over the Synchron-ized versions, got a refund and bought the original Woodwinds 1 bundle – even though it meant paying a lot more money.

I don’t know why, as it seemed like the classic no brainer: vast improvements made to the original samples going at a discount price. Maybe the ‘quirky’ elements that were smoothed out in the sanitized versions were the very nuances that gave them the character I liked?


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## Ben (Nov 2, 2020)

novaburst said:


> But between me and you can we just keep it to our self as I am waiting for VSL to start slashing the V I price


Have you checked the prices recently? Due to the current world situation we are still selling all VI instruments for the "VI Hero" sales price. Combined with the current single instruments sale "buy one, get one for free" you will get even cheaper...


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## ptram (Nov 2, 2020)

Teldex said:


> Maybe the ‘quirky’ elements that were smoothed out in the sanitized versions were the very nuances that gave them the character I liked?



I concur that the Synchronized versions I could try all had this 'smoothed-out' character. The old sounds were levigated, made perfect, more in line with the current tastes (just look at the characters in the original Star Wars and the current ones…).

We rough men of old may still prefer the slightly imperfect VI version, with the same imperfections found in real life. I also have a beard and hairs on my chest!

(I hope the VI versions will remain; they are like a testimony of a particular, unique epoch in time).

Paolo


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## novaburst (Nov 2, 2020)

Ben said:


> Have you checked the prices recently? Due to the current world situation we are still selling all VI instruments for the "VI Hero" sales price. Combined with the current single instruments sale "buy one, get one for free" you will get even cheaper...



A few weeks ago I picked up the V I harps beauty full library, I think I got them on a cut down price, but I will check back 

The buy one get one free is very attractive

Thanks the heads up


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## paulmatthew (Nov 9, 2020)

How many mics does the Synchronized Woodwinds come with? Synchron Strings Pro standard shows 4 but I see no information about this for the woodwinds.


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## maestro2be (Nov 9, 2020)

Synchronized instruments are the legacy instruments ported over to the new player. They only have the one mic position from the silent stage recording.

Not to be confused with instruments that say Synchron and do not end in “ized”. These are brand new multi-mic instruments recorded in the synchron stage.


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## paulmatthew (Nov 9, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> Synchronized instruments are the legacy instruments ported over to the new player. They only have the one mic position from the silent stage recording.
> 
> Not to be confused with instruments that say Synchron and do not end in “ized”. These are brand new multi-mic instruments recorded in the synchron stage.


Thank you.


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## Minsky (Jan 24, 2021)

Ben said:


> Have you checked the prices recently? Due to the current world situation we are still selling all VI instruments for the "VI Hero" sales price. Combined with the current single instruments sale "buy one, get one for free" you will get even cheaper...


Ben, I presume there are plans for Synchron Woodwinds Pro at some point?


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## Ben (Jan 24, 2021)

Minsky said:


> Ben, I presume there are plans for Synchron Woodwinds Pro at some point?


As always with future products and plans: No comment


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## maestro2be (Jan 24, 2021)

No comment doesn't mean they're not doing it . They have already teased us with some BBO woodwinds and in my opinion, either they already had done some or, they very smartly gave us a little taste of woodwinds in Synchron hall so people could get all of their complaining and negative comments out of the way before they put in the effort for a full comprehensive library. Once they either hear the "thumbs up" from the user community (to help prevent another Synchron Strings 1 episode) they can get right down to work .

I would find it incredibly difficult to believe they have that gorgeous stage and are not making them. There is no way you could convince me of that. Only VSL saying "nope, we're not doing that" would make me believe it. And even then, if enough people keep banging at the front door holding white picket signs that say "Synchron Woodwinds" it would probably happen at some point anyway .

I of course have no idea what I am talking about .


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 16, 2021)

Any more opinions on Synchron-ized Woodwinds? They recently added a lot of content to it and it seems very comprehensive compared to other libraries. The tone from the audio demos has a wonderful sweetness to it as well. My hesitation is that soon they will release Synchron Woodwinds and these will simply be just an imitation compared to those. Though perhaps the dry recordings as a foundation will still have some superior characteristics for woodwinds.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 16, 2021)

I hope to have time soon. I'm pretty darn busy these days, between constant job interviews and doing pro bono work for two separate companies. My recollection is that the main reason I didn't switch to using SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds in my projects yet, was the missing articulations. But I also had some issues specifically with the flute timbre, even in dry mode. That might have been because I had to substitute my preferred articulations though. If I'm lucky, I can try by Sunday.


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## AlainTH (Mar 18, 2021)

i was ready to click on buy the synchronized woodinds (for complement the synchronstringspro and synchronized dimension strings bundle i bought last month) but i found several demos in which i don't retrieve the sound i expected from vsl woodwinds, transparency, realism etc... it seems the synchronized version is more polish and sweet but in a way more 'common' and not so different of others libraries i have... so i think i go to buy the vi woodwinds, i prefer this good beginning point (just wil have to do more work to recreate coherent space).


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## Ben (Mar 18, 2021)

AlainTH said:


> i was ready to click on buy the synchronized woodinds (for complement the synchronstringspro and synchronized dimension strings bundle i bought last month) but i found several demos in which i don't retrieve the sound i expected from vsl woodwinds, transparency, realism etc... it seems the synchronized version is more polish and sweet but in a way more 'common' and not so different of others libraries i have... so i think i go to buy the vi woodwinds, i prefer this good beginning point (just wil have to do more work to recreate coherent space).


Check out the free 30 days demo (directly on the product page).
If you disable the IR and algorithmic reverb you will get a very similar sound.
(with great improvements regarding crossfade, player software, releases and more)


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## ptram (Mar 18, 2021)

Ben said:


> If you disable the IR and algorithmic reverb you will get a very similar sound.
> (with great improvements regarding crossfade, player software, releases and more)


Ben, if this is something that can be revealed, maybe the samples were denoised? Not yet done a scientific test, but I've the impression that the naked samples, while very similar, have received sort of a 'gloss', made more polished and levigated. This, on samples that were already incredibly clean and well made.

The new 'looped legato', that we could recently compare with the old unlooped one, sounds very different. The different way dynamic crossfade sounds in the new player makes a perceivable difference. In other words, there are technical differences (I don't know which ones) that make the new VSL sound somewhat 'shinier' and 'glossier' than the old one.

Paolo


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## AlainTH (Mar 18, 2021)

yes, i feel that differences, it would be nice to compare at home but i don't see demo for vi-woodwinds, so maybe i have to buy it and ask for refund in case...


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## Ben (Mar 18, 2021)

AlainTH said:


> maybe i have to buy it and ask for refund in case...


In this case it is not necassary: Go to the product page and get your 30 days free demo license


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 18, 2021)

Ben said:


> In this case it is not necassary: Go to the product page and get your 30 days free demo license


Must say, the free 30 day demo is a wonderful option. Downloading now.


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## Ben (Mar 18, 2021)

ptram said:


> The new 'looped legato'


The looped legato is not new. The "unlooped legato" is new (the regular legato is the leg-sus in VI)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 18, 2021)

@Ben The VSL Download manager went from downloading fine to downloading at 0.1kbps. My bandwidth remains the same. I've tried restarting the download to no avail. Any suggestions?


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## Ben (Mar 18, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> @Ben The VSL Download manager went from downloading fine to downloading at 0.1kbps. My bandwidth remains the same. I've tried restarting the download to no avail. Any suggestions?


I'm currently loading at full capacity of my internet connection (12MB/s).
Please double check your firewall and router settings, our download manager uses the torrent protocol, which is often blocked by these software / devices.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 18, 2021)

Ben said:


> I'm currently loading at full capacity of my internet connection (12MB/s).
> Please double check your firewall and router settings, our download manager uses the torrent protocol, which is often blocked by these software / devices.


Hmm, I've emailed support. I don't have a firewall or any specific router settings.


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## AlainTH (Mar 18, 2021)

Ben said:


> In this case it is not necassary: Go to the product page and get your 30 days free demo license


as i said this option doesn't appear on the vi woodwinds product page, but maybe i don't look at the right page. could you paste a link?


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## Ben (Mar 18, 2021)

Ah, I see, you wanted to check out the VI woodwinds. Sorry, we don't have demo licenses for the VI instruments.


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## AlainTH (Mar 19, 2021)

Again, the point is that i think (in demos i can find) the synchronized sample sound different (even dry) and you say they are not (a little ceretainly because it is said the samples have been remastetered, certainly not for they sound idientical). the point also is i was seduced by the vsl vi-woodwind sound i found (so natural and different than others) but as it would be nice to have it in synchron player i hesitate.... For be sure and compare at home the only way is to buy the vi woorwinds and ask refund in case...maybe i'll do it...


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 19, 2021)

Given how many articulations VSL provides for Synchronized Woodwinds, must say the automatic Studio One articulation map integration is a God send! Looking forward to comparing these with Berlin and CSW during my demo period (I also have Infinite Woodwinds, but they are pretty far behind on tone).


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 19, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Given how many articulations VSL provides for Synchronized Woodwinds, must say the automatic Studio One articulation map integration is a God send! Looking forward to comparing these with Berlin and CSW during my demo period (I also have Infinite Woodwinds, but they are pretty far behind on tone).


coincidently, the demo is what saved my wallet. 

it's not bad by any stretch, but there wasn't any pressing reason to buy or use it over what I have - so YYMV. I'm actually proud of myself for actually getting a demo instead of just plopping down the money. Wouldn't have hated myself for buying it, but I just know I'd not use it.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 19, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> coincidently, the demo is what saved my wallet.
> 
> it's not bad by any stretch, but there wasn't any pressing reason to buy or use it over what I have - so YYMV. I'm actually proud of myself for actually getting a demo instead of just plopping down the money. Wouldn't have hated myself for buying it, but I just know I'd not use it.


I feel that. Great option by VSL to give long demos. Though there are some very unique articulations with VSL that would not be possible or take a fair amount of programming trickery in the other libraries.


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## SlHarder (Mar 19, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Great option by VSL to give long demos


After getting in the habit of using VSL 30 day demos to make some selective but very satisfactory purchases I find I now must have very high expectations for any library that I purchase from other sources before I will even consider getting out my credit card. 

Hands on beats youtube demo vids every time.


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## borisb2 (Mar 19, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Looking forward to comparing these with Berlin and CSW during my demo period


Any chance of showing some snippets to the world?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 19, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Any chance of showing some snippets to the world?


Gladly - any suggested pieces I could take snippets from?


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## FrankieD (Mar 19, 2021)

I just purchased these samples, listening to you guys, being a long time EW user, I can't wait to use them. 

Ben, you would like me. I just purchased all your samples. Is that true? For 14K from Sweetwater, is that everything?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 19, 2021)

Very quick, rough couple of measures with flutes and oboe. First one is VSL, second is BWW Legacy, third is CSW. Basically the same MIDI for each - I entered it in by mouse and then did some legato-izing plus modulation programming. For VSL I'm using the "Pure Legato" patch.

Because of CSW's legato implementation, the flutes come in at the wrong point compared to the oboe line going on underneath. S1 doesn't make it as easy as say Cubase to line everything up for CSS libraries right now (with a millisecond shift macro - coming soon I hear).

Default, out of the box settings for all three. Though I had to lower the volume for BWW since they are much louder than the others.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 19, 2021)

I've done some comparisons tonight, and do feel that the flutes are now on par with the older VI version, but it definitely sounds a bit different for certain articulations -- particularly the longs. I think what's going on is that the resonances were cleaned up. When I use VSL for jazz, I actually like some of that resonance (though I do use some notch filters in production) as it gives it a bit more of an intimate "club" character for a jazz combo.

I can't remember how the standard Dynamics are triggered in this version of the library. I just see the ones for sfz and fp attack vs. normal attack. I thought it might be under Legato (for the note transition leading up to the crescendo) but don't see it there either. As I think this also came up for the strings and was explained earlier for those SYNCHRON-ized libraries, I'll look for those notes.

Tonight's comparisons confirm what I theorized earlier: my perceptions of dramatic timbral differences vs. the original Vienna Instruments Woodwinds (for the flutes, at least) was due to not being able to do direct comparisons of my most-used articulations. Except for the longs, which were cleaned up to reduce flute chamber resonance.

The new pure unlooped legato compensates for the cleanup work, as it is very characterful and intimate, and in fact it allows me to use legato in places where I deliberately "incorrectly" used longs just because I cared more about the actual timbre and expressiveness than the note transitions.

Now that this is more of a full library, it's a much easier comparison, and I also feel it is more internally consistent in volumes and timbre as well as attack and other aspects, meaning it will be easier to get ideal phrasing where there's a lot of articulation switching, than was previously the case.

If the natural swells are missing from SYNCHRON-ized, as opposed to simply not having found them yet, it doesn't bother me that much as I usually use sfz and fp dynamics on woodwinds anyway. The strings are where I'm more likely to start from a minimal attack.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 19, 2021)

UPDATE: Ben has clarified that the numbering of Viennese vs. French variants switched in SYNCHRON-ized editions to better match what is more common internationally.

This text is a replacement for what I wrote a couple of days ago, to avoid spreading confusion now or later when people revisit this topic.

At the time that SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds first came out, I complained that the Oboes and English Horns sounded completely different in terms of timbre and other aspects. With the extra articulations added this week, I did a more thorough comparison and found after hours of careful apples-to-apples listening that Oboe 1 + 2, and English Horn 1 + 2, seemed "swapped" from before. I thought it was a bug, but it isn't; it's by design (as explained above).

As the Bassoons and Clarinets were not "national variants" per se, this doesn't apply to them.

Now that this mystery is resolved, and I have had a fair amount of time with the current state of SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds from this week (and don't forget to download Update 4 which was released later in the week!), and now that the extra articulations and cleanup have removed my reservations about the changes to the two Flutes, I have no remaining reservations about the SYNCHRON-ized version of this library (other than needing the remaining instruments!).

This new library revision has much better articulation transitions and dynamics balancing across the articulation sets. Changes to the long notes and the legato handling combine with these improvements to make it much easier to select the desired articulations vs. the most effective ones, thus getting closer to the imagined phrasing and also more quickly with less work than before.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 19, 2021)

Of course, this is still not a full library, as it is missing the Alto Flute, Bass Flute, Eb Clarinet, Heckelphone, Basset Horn, Oboe d'Amore, and English Horn II.

If there is a Synchron Woodwinds at some point, I hope it will add Bass Oboe to the mix, and maybe some more low clarinets as well (Contralto, for instance).

I use Oboe d'Amore and Alto Flute constantly. As with Flute, I probably use English Horn I and II in equal measure. Heckelphone sees occasional use as well, and where I use it, nothing else will do.

I record my own clarinet parts for the voicings I own, but Eb Clarinet would be useful to a lot of people. C Clarinet is used a lot in opera and also certain composers, and has even grown in popularity with some modern composers. I own one at home. The timbre is unique. Of course, no A Clarinet in VSL yet either. My R13 doesn't sound radically different from its same-model-line Bb cousin though.

Bass Flute is helpful to have. I'm more likely to use it in jazz than in orchestral scoring, as more often than not I find another low register instrument fits better or at least helps to double (e.g. a Trombone). But it certainly comes up in scoring a fair amount.

I expect there will be a "Plus" edition at some point that adds the missing SYNCHRON-ized instruments -- especially as they do all show up in limited articulation sets in SYNCHRON-ized Special Edition -- and that an eventual Synchron Woodwinds will likely add at least one or two additional woodwinds not covered in the original series.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 20, 2021)

Anybody been able to compare Synchronized Woodwinds and Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds (which are commonly mentioned to be quite good)?


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 20, 2021)

I have both. I ran into too many missing articulations and also dynamics jumps on SSW, but I seem to recall the Bassoons being the most promising part of the package when last I worked with it.

As the original VI Woodwinds already blew it away from my point of view, and as SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds is now mostly on par with the original edition, I'd mostly have to check whether there are any instruments that are in SSW but not in SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds, as there can be some project mixing advantages to having that mic mix control within the instrument interface.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 21, 2021)

Another little comparison. Once again, basically the same MIDI for each library so I'm sure the balance could be better for some. Piece called for 2 of flutes, oboes, clarinets, and bassoons. Only VSL and Berlin had enough individual players to use. For the rest, I had to use section patches or double up on the solo patches. Order is:

- Synchronized Woodwinds Pure Legato
- Synchronized Woodwinds Normal Vibrato Legato
- Cinematic Studio Woodwinds (a2 sections)
- Berlin Woodwinds Legacy
- Hollywood Woodwinds
- CineWinds Core (I couldn't get sustains to hold or poly legato to work properly)

Bit torn about buying VSL after this comparison given how Berlin and CSW sound.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

As you used the same MIDI for all examples, that does end up being a bit unfair to Hollywood (which I don't own) as it pushes the flutes way over the other woodwinds, balance-wise.

The only one that sounds natural to me is SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds, and strangely I find the Normal Vibrato Legato more realistic sounding from a phrasing point of view than the Pure Legato.

Next to that, CineWinds Core sounds like it might work well if the MIDI is tweaked a bit. And if mic mix levels are available in Berlin Woodwinds, a more forward presentation might benefit that part of the test as otherwise its timbre seems warm and balanced as well as fairly articulate.

I was shocked at how bad CSW sounded to my ears. A big mush with no instrument separation, no sense of space and placement, almost no articulation whatsoever. Almost sounds like a synth pad.


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## Ben (Mar 21, 2021)

@ALittleNightMusic Have you disabled the IR reverb of the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds?


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## borisb2 (Mar 21, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Bit torn about buying VSL after this comparison given how Berlin and CSW sound.


thanks for doing that .. To me the winner is Berlin Woodwinds in both examples .. it sounds so natural with enough detail .. CSW sound surprisingly mushy in the second example, VSL oboe (as I often experienced as well) can sound a bit thin and sterile (1st example) .. hard to get rid of that (other than drowning in IR)

I'm very happy that I picked up BWW during last sale


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## jon wayne (Mar 21, 2021)

FrankieD said:


> I just purchased these samples, listening to you guys, being a long time EW user, I can't wait to use them.
> 
> Ben, you would like me. I just purchased all your samples. Is that true? For 14K from Sweetwater, is that everything?


 No , you missed the Pro libraries. They are about 35K.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 21, 2021)

Ben said:


> @ALittleNightMusic Have you disabled the IR reverb of the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds?


No, was I supposed to? I just have the default patches loaded.

Edit: Hmm...looks like the patches had the reverb disabled by default? I'll post an updated version.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

I have replaced my earlier comment about the woodwind pairs with completely new text just now, that explains some of the earlier mysteries about perceived differences between SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds and VI Woodwinds. I recommend that people read the revised post.

This comes from Ben's feedback, and I think it will help a lot of people who are evaluating the new edition and trying to decide whether to buy or not, but the labeling is correct in SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds anyway; some of us got used to thinking in terms of "Oboe 1" vs. "Oboe 2" though.

The nationality is labeled directly now, and likely will be on other pairs too, once the second half of the pair shows up as a SYNCHRON-ized instrument (already the case for SYNCHRON-ized Special Edition).


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

jon wayne said:


> No , you missed the Pro libraries. They are about 35K.


Thanks for telling me how much I have spent so far on VSL.  I was wondering...


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## Ben (Mar 21, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> No, was I supposed to? I just have the default patches loaded.


Ok, it might be that you are missing a hotfix. Due to a bug all instrument presets will not load the IR if you downloaded the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds Expansion on the first two days. You can download the fix here: https://www.vsl.co.at/MyVSL/sy_library_updates

(If you downloaded the libraries a few days after release you should have got the version where the fix is already integrated)


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

I meant to express my appreciation for the effort in the comparisons as well, so hope my comments didn't come off as arrogant. It's interesting that one other person has now made similar observations on CSW also.

As for that comment about the VSL Oboe, I find the two Oboes significantly different in character and usually use the French Oboe as the Viennese Oboe does often sound thin to me (depending on context), but I rarely use Woodwind Ensembles (as I usually split woodwind sections into separate parts; unlike Horns which I often keep grouped but also split just as in typical orchestration work). Anyway, the point is that I never paid attention to whether the Oboe Section is Viennese. Likely so.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

Ben beat me to it, regarding what was fixed in the Woodwinds Update from later this week. I never saw the Release Notes, but had noted the bug he mentions and was going to report it until it went away in the hot fix.

I was very thankful for that, as it's one less production note on necessary workarounds!


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## Ben (Mar 21, 2021)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I never saw the Release Notes


https://www.vsl.info/instruments/changelogs/sy-ized-woodwinds#march-17th-2021


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

Ah, so it's just that one impulse response fix then. That saves me from spending time restarting my comparisons from scratch.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 21, 2021)

Ok, an updated version - this time with Synchron Player's reverb enabled. I also added the solo instruments for CSW to see if that improved upon the feedback given. Additionally, I changed out the Hollywood Woodwinds legato patches to something I think works better and used multiple patches for CineWinds to fix the legato issues. I've also tried to balance the instruments somewhat more similar to the VSL version.

Once again the order is: VSL Legato Pure, VSL Legato Normal Vibrato, CSW, BWW Legacy, HOW, and CineWinds Core.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

Ironically, I think your extra work brought out more of the flaws in the other libraries.  The one that sounds better to me than before is CineWinds, which just seems to suffer some articulation transition issues. CSW still sounds like an undistinguished blob to me, and listening at louder volumes I now notice that BWW doesn't have enough note attack.

HOW is a mystery to me, as the flutes still seem to dominate even though the clarinet support line is quite loud -- the other parts disappear though. It still sounds the least balanced of any of them.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 21, 2021)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Ironically, I think your extra work brought out more of the flaws in the other libraries.  The one that sounds better to me than before is CineWinds, which just seems to suffer some articulation transition issues. CSW still sounds like an undistinguished blob to me, and listening at louder volumes I now notice that BWW doesn't have enough note attack.
> 
> HOW is a mystery to me, as the flutes still seem to dominate even though the clarinet support line is quite loud -- the other parts disappear though. It still sounds the least balanced of any of them.


Thanks for your thoughts! I do think VSL is very well balanced in terms of sample editing compared to especially CineWinds and HOW.


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## tcb (Mar 21, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ok, an updated version - this time with Synchron Player's reverb enabled. I also added the solo instruments for CSW to see if that improved upon the feedback given. Additionally, I changed out the Hollywood Woodwinds legato patches to something I think works better and used multiple patches for CineWinds to fix the legato issues. I've also tried to balance the instruments somewhat more similar to the VSL version.
> 
> Once again the order is: VSL Legato Pure, VSL Legato Normal Vibrato, CSW, BWW Legacy, HOW, and CineWinds Core.


Pure legato is much better than before in this piece.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 21, 2021)

tcb said:


> Pure legato is much better than before in this piece.


Didn’t touch the programming for the second bounce - just turned on the reverb, but makes a big difference!


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## John Longley (Mar 21, 2021)

This was cool, I prefer the second one-- despite thinking the pure legato was an improvement since I got it LOL. 

Also, is it just me, or is some of the tuning in CSW kind of nasty? 

Cinewinds always sounds great in tone, but the legato even with the speed control cranked is pretty clunky for anything remotely fast. I wish I could use it more, as the sound is pretty great.

I have wanted Berlin for ages, but it didn't really catch me here. 

HOW is just....not happening for me.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 21, 2021)

One final rendition, this time with Infinite Woodwinds at the end as well (I definitely have too many woodwind libraries). Please note that I am using the patches as they are out of the box, so default mics / reverb settings.

I am not very familiar with Hollywood Woodwinds - I was waiting for OPUS before digging in too much (joke's on me).

CineWinds was my first woodwind library and while it has a nice tone, the programming and unevenness need to be sorted out. It's also much more limited in terms of articulations and instruments. I wouldn't really recommend it to anybody at the moment.

Surprised to hear folks not liking CSW. The default Mix is more roomy than the others, but I wonder if you could get something more preferable to your taste via the close mic. I personally like the tone of the recordings of CSW, but yes, folks have noted tuning issues and a need for smoother crossfades.

Berlin is still a great workhorse (I didn't even choose to do the crossgrade to Revive), but does have a more "nasal" quality, especially compared to VSL.

Infinite Woodwinds has great playability (as some would say - I don't think it does because personally I would rather program with specific recordings of specific techniques rather than "fake it" with scripting), but I have not found the tone to be to my liking. This comparison further illustrates that for me personally.

Unfortunately, I don't own Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds, so can't make a comparison with them. I do tend to really like Spitfire's tonal fingerprint though.

Order once again: VSL Synchronized Woodwinds Pure Legato, VSL Normal Legato Vibrato, CSW, Berlin WW Legacy, HO Woodwinds, CineWinds Core, Infinite Woodwinds


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## CT (Mar 21, 2021)

Interesting comparison. In this case, Berlin is the winner for me. I do like CSW as well, it has a very "Golden Age" score sound here if that makes any sense. 

What's going on with the VSL examples, are they not at all panned/reverb'd? Just sounds a little too claustrophobic.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 21, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Interesting comparison. In this case, Berlin is the winner for me. I do like CSW as well, it has a very "Golden Age" score sound here if that makes any sense.
> 
> What's going on with the VSL examples, are they not at all panned/reverb'd? Just sounds a little too claustrophobic.


VSL has a reverb on it (default that comes with these) and I haven’t touched the panning from the default patches.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 21, 2021)

Hah, this time I do now prefer the newer VSL legatos. It sounds more fluid with the reverb, and by comparison the older legatos now sound a bit awkward.

After your tweaks, and listening at still-louder volume (which for me is still softer by far that the human speaking voice), Berlin sounds second best to me in timbre, articulation, and phrasing, and I'm starting to notice tuning issues and the like with CSW but it's still more fluid than the others such as HOW and CineWinds.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 22, 2021)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Hah, this time I do now prefer the newer VSL legatos. It sounds more fluid with the reverb, and by comparison the older legatos now sound a bit awkward.
> 
> After your tweaks, and listening at still-louder volume (which for me is still softer by far that the human speaking voice), Berlin sounds second best to me in timbre, articulation, and phrasing, and I'm starting to notice tuning issues and the like with CSW but it's still more fluid than the others such as HOW and CineWinds.


Interestingly enough, I didn't change the VSL ones at all from the previous post


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 22, 2021)

Yes, but I was listening louder this time.  Different aspects stick out more than others, at different listening volumes. To me, a good library is one that sounds good at all listening volumes.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 22, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> One final rendition, this time with Infinite Woodwinds at the end as well (I definitely have too many woodwind libraries). Please note that I am using the patches as they are out of the box, so default mics / reverb settings.
> 
> I am not very familiar with Hollywood Woodwinds - I was waiting for OPUS before digging in too much (joke's on me).
> 
> ...


I thought CineWinds and Infinite Woodwinds could use a bit more massaging to be fair, so I've updated just those two here. CW still has some really strange legato samples for certain intervals that I couldn't figure out how to massage away (the oboe especially). For IW, the tone of the bassoon and clarinet sounds nothing like the other libraries. IMO there's no sense of a real recording there, with all the inherent imperfections.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 22, 2021)

Yeah, no distinct timbre between the woodwinds in IW. That's a surprise.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 22, 2021)

I think the recorded run patches in VSL sound much better than the runs included in Berlin Woodwinds. The other libraries don't have recorded run patches, so you have to write out the MIDI yourself and tweak.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 24, 2021)

Another short comparison, but this time I won't name the order. Comparing CSW, BWW, and VSL.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 24, 2021)

At super soft volume (below a whisper), the third one sounds the most natural in terms of articulations, blend, and phrasing (as well as timbre).

The first one has no note attack, and the individual members of the section don't sound distinct enough from each other timbrally.

The second one has some strange transitions and articulations as well as a dominant bassoon (followed by oboe, but that's to be expected).

At slightly louder volume, the noter attack issue seems to invert a bit between the first two examples in the clip, but the third one still sounds the most natural and fluid to me.

All three seem listenable and workable in a larger mix, unlike some of the earlier examples.

I'm guessing the middle one (the second one) is BWW. I would think the third one is VSL, but if it's CSW, well done, considering the caveats you mentioned earlier. It's also the warmest by far.

I deliberately didn't listen to your earlier clips before or after, or in making my guesses either.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 24, 2021)

Mark Schmieder said:


> At super soft volume (below a whisper), the third one sounds the most natural in terms of articulations, blend, and phrasing (as well as timbre).
> 
> The first one has no note attack, and the individual members of the section don't sound distinct enough from each other timbrally.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your thoughts. You got...none of them right unfortunately  Which I suppose says something about all of the libraries and our preferences.



Spoiler: Answers



The order was VSL, CSW, BWW



My take was a little different than yours, from using each for this little section. VSL offers much more flexibility in terms of note lengths, which came in handy. I also think VSL and CSW have the best legato. I found BWW legato to be quite sluggish for the 8th note triplets comparatively. The CSW default mix feels very distant to me and the close mic is not that close, so it limits your flexibility. In terms of tone, all three are nice - just depends what you prefer. BWW doesn't feel warmer to me - the opposite in fact with a more nasal tone. VSL and BWW also feel the most naturally well balanced to me in terms of volume (I set the CC data based on the dynamic markings in the score, but as you noticed, the balance in CSW was very different from the other two).


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## borisb2 (Mar 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Another short comparison, but this time I won't name the order. Comparing CSW, BWW, and VSL.


while typing I try to not look above .. my guess:
VSL, BWW, CSW

Edit: ha .. at least I got VSL right  .. again it sounded a bit more clean/sterile at higher dynamics


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## AlainTH (Mar 25, 2021)

no more vi woodwinds?


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## jamwerks (Mar 25, 2021)

Wondering if the time stretching can do real-time effects, like speeding-up and slowing-down the speed of the trills?


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## Ben (Mar 25, 2021)

jamwerks said:


> Wondering if the time stretching can do real-time effects, like speeding-up and slowing-down the speed of the trills?


Yes, you can map the "Streatch Factor" to any controller and also add it to the PERFORM tab, if it's not already included there:




__





Edit Tab | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


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## AlainTH (Mar 25, 2021)

the question was about the trills, it can be useful


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## jamwerks (Mar 25, 2021)

Ben said:


> Yes, you can map the "Streatch Factor" to any controller and also add it to the PERFORM tab, if it's not already included there:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool! That alone is worth the price!


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## SlHarder (Mar 25, 2021)

jamwerks said:


> Wondering if the time stretching can do real-time effects,


For me Stretch Factor is one of the hidden killer features in Synchron player. 

It can be cpu intensive. But I find I can use it to create the effect I want and then bounce that portion of the track and freeze the instrument. I usually do not need Stretch for an entire track.


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## Ben (Mar 25, 2021)

SlHarder said:


> For me Stretch Factor is one of the hidden killer features in Synchron player.
> 
> It can be cpu intensive. But I find I can use it to create the effect I want and then bounce that portion of the track and freeze the instrument. I usually do not need Stretch for an entire track.


Most of the times I create a copy of the slot I want to timestretch. This way I can use the original articulation without performance penalty as well.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 25, 2021)

The comparison continues! VSL, CSW, BWW Legacy. Used a MIDI file from ScoreClub as the foundation (thank you to the person that made it).

I'm not sure I'm getting any closer to deciding if I want to buy VSL or not with these comparisons...it's great, but so are the other ones I own. VSL has more short articulations, which came in handy here...but does it make a big difference?


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 25, 2021)

As I don't write much romantic era influenced music (so much of it already; how can I compete?), short articulations are absolutely critical for me. But everyone's needs are different.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 25, 2021)

At below the level of a whisper, the third one sounds magnificent, natural, balanced, phrased well.

The first one sounds herky-jerky to me, with some honky timbre as well, and awkward transitions.

The second one is kind of in-between in terms of much milder examples of those same complaints.

I rarely go beyond my initial super-low listening test unless the differences are less stark.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 25, 2021)

Mark Schmieder said:


> At below the level of a whisper, the third one sounds magnificent, natural, balanced, phrased well.
> 
> The first one sounds herky-jerky to me, with some honky timbre as well, and awkward transitions.
> 
> ...


The order was VSL, CSW, BWW btw. For VSL I made use of the staccato repetition articulations, which sound different than the normal staccato ones.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 25, 2021)

Ah, maybe that's why; I rarely if ever use those. I tend to have so many accents and other articulations within a given phrase, that I mostly end up using the individual staccatos.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 25, 2021)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Ah, maybe that's why; I rarely if ever use those. I tend to have so many accents and other articulations within a given phrase, that I mostly end up using the individual staccatos.


I added some of the other context around it (and changed VSL to use normal staccatos). I also volume balanced each of the woodwind instruments across the libraries (as best as I could).

Order is now Berlin, VSL, then CSW.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 25, 2021)

Interesting; I didn't look at what was what until after listening, and for this one I was just about (or barely above) the level of a whisper. I found the middle one unlistenable. It sounded like a bunch of individual notes with no phrasing. The first one has smooth phrasing, with slightly weak attacks but sufficient bloom to each note that it sounded natural. The third one kind of reminded me of an old cuckoo clock. A little smoother than the middle one, but no real envelope to the notes post-attack.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 25, 2021)

Looks like I'm preferring BWW pretty consistently, in your renderings. That's quite a surprise, as it had some weaknesses in your original example that still show up (weak note attacks) but are less noticeable in the other musical excerpts.


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## AlainTH (Mar 26, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I added some of the other context around it (and changed VSL to use normal staccatos). I also volume balanced each of the woodwind instruments across the libraries (as best as I could).
> 
> Order is now Berlin, VSL, then CSW.


in your example the 2nd (vsl?) sounds like mechanical organ.... the first (bww?) sound here better.... it would be interesting if, for keeping the subject of this thread about vi/synchronized woodwinds, someone could take the same midi of scoreclub and try with vsl vi woodwind.


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## ptram (Mar 26, 2021)

AlainTH said:


> isomeone could take the same midi of scoreclub and try with vsl vi woodwind.


I can do it. Maybe also adding a version of VI+Teldex, to better match it with OT's woodwinds.

Paolo


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 26, 2021)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Looks like I'm preferring BWW pretty consistently, in your renderings. That's quite a surprise, as it had some weaknesses in your original example that still show up (weak note attacks) but are less noticeable in the other musical excerpts.





AlainTH said:


> in your example the 2nd (vsl?) sounds like mechanical organ.... the first (bww?) sound here better.... it would be interesting if, for keeping the subject of this thread about vi/synchronized woodwinds, someone could take the same midi of scoreclub and try with vsl vi woodwind.


Yes interesting how VSL ended up. This is with the default patch and the Classic mixer preset with the reverb turned on.

I’m starting to lean more towards just getting the Berlin Revive upgrade and maybe their Soloists too (have an EDU discount). Love Synchron player and the wealth of articulations but Berlin has a lot too and my crossgrade + soloists would be cheaper than buying VSL.


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## Ben (Mar 26, 2021)




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## AlainTH (Mar 27, 2021)

you post that for saying sy-ed have the same piccolo sounding than vi?


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## Ben (Mar 27, 2021)

AlainTH said:


> you post that for saying sy-ed have the same piccolo sounding than vi?


Just to give you an idea how the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds sound if used properly


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 27, 2021)

It would be helpful if MIDI files of the demos were available. So the rest of us could learn how to use the library more properly


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## AlainTH (Mar 27, 2021)

for me the orchestra is ok but not the piccolo (and precisely i think it is due to the programming at some passages) but the subject being comparing the vi and synchronized version of woodwinds, it would be interesting, anyway, to see how vi piccolo sound with this ...


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 27, 2021)

Yes, I do feel there are some issues with that rendering, but the timbre is about as nice as a piccolo can get.  And I don't tend to criticize these things, as I know how much work is involved. I think the point was to primarily showcase the timbre and spatial placement of the SYNCHRON-ized Piccolo.


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## AlainTH (Mar 27, 2021)

lot of work sure! respect.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 27, 2021)

Well, after using the opening few bars of Trepak to compare Berlin and VSL one final time, I've...gone with the Berlin Revive upgrade. BWW was just a more balanced, nicer sound of out the box to me. Love the wealth of articulations that VSL comes with (though Berlin isn't too far behind) and will miss the bass clarinet, but in practice, it didn't make much of a difference in the mock ups for me. I'm sure in more experienced hands, VSL would've been even better. Absolutely amazing that VSL offers these 30 day demos in any case! I really love Synchron Player and am looking forward to more Synchron libraries.


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## AlainTH (Apr 1, 2021)

finally i think i have to wait, i will go to vi woodwinds (during a sale) for their unique character i don't retrieve in the syncronized version and wait also to see future synchron woodwinds.


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## RogiervG (May 2, 2021)

those compare snippets are actually done improperly. Instead follow these guidelines for a better way:
- use for all examples the same mics, or one that is the closed to it.
- Do not cut/boost in EQ.
- Check volume levels between libs, in the examples i noticed: one lib is louder than the other.
- Make sure you use the same articulations, and dynamics on them.
- Massage the articulation(s) as intended per library, not just compy paste midi data between libs.
- as for additional reverbs, adjust them for the mic type. E.g. Ambient mics don't need much extra reverb, doing that will make things even more mushy.

Not doing this, results in an uneven impression, as you can read by listeners. E.g. csw sounding too mushy/muddy/bad, or VSl sounding boxy (narrow, too close). Both are a result of the improper way of doing a compare: no fair judgement can be made.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 2, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> those compare snippets are actually done improperly. Instead follow these guidelines for a better way:
> - use for all examples the same mics, or one that is the closed to it.
> - Do not cut/boost in EQ.
> - Check volume levels between libs, in the examples i noticed: one lib is louder than the other.
> ...


If you’re referring to my comparisons, I stated explicitly I used the out of the box sound and patches. The articulations were similar and no additional processing was used. The MIDI data was adjusted as necessary without spending too much time. They are also relatively volume balanced. Since you know better though, you should provide some comparisons.


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## RogiervG (May 2, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> If you’re referring to my comparisons, I stated explicitly I used the out of the box sound and patches. The articulations were similar and no additional processing was used. The MIDI data was adjusted as necessary without spending too much time. They are also relatively volume balanced. Since you know better though, you should provide some comparisons.


yes, i do refer to your comparisons.
You can state it, but that doesn't mean it is therefor a good comparison: compare goes about equal things (in this case woodwind libraries) and how they differ.
Out of the box without changing anything, results in a not equal setting: each lib has a different default (and it matters a lot in sound impression).
People barely read, especially here on this forum, when there is sound examples presented, they are attracted to it, and forget to read the comments/context on those. That why i feel it should be improved, so the examples show the libraries in proper light, to compare.

Look, i provided some constructive critique. Nothing more, no harm intended or be rude. I appreciate your effort in doing these comparisons, i do.. i just felt to help you a bit in making beter comparisons. 

ps..
"since you know better though, you should provide some comparisons" - not sure how to respond to this kind of, in my opinion, silly reactions. Maybe i read your intent wrongly.. but seeing these types of reactions on many discussion platforms, i start to wonder:
Why is it that the alpha dog reaction appears with many people, when giving critique? The "Prove it or you're wrong" mentallity is somehting i simply don't get.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 2, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> yes, i do refer to your comparisons.
> You can state it, but that doesn't mean it is therefor a good comparison: compare goes about equal things (in this case woodwind libraries) and how they differ.
> Out of the box without changing anything, results in a not equal setting: each lib has a different default (and it matters a lot in sound impression).
> People barely read, especially here on this forum, when there is sound examples presented, they are attracted to it, and forget to read the comments/context on those. That why i feel it should be improved, so the examples show the libraries in proper light, to compare.
> ...


Well I disagree with you that out of the box comparisons are not good comparisons. I much prefer those comparisons than trying to get all of the libraries to essentially sound the same - what's the point in having different libraries if you're going to make them sound the same? The same thing comes up in any string comparison thread and CSS - "it doesn't sound like CSS". Ultimately, out of the box patches are a true indicator of what the developer intended the library to sound like and are a good gauge of the tone of the library, which is most important. You also made a number of assumptions that weren't true about the comparisons I made (EQ, reverb, etc).

And regarding my last note, I meant that since you have a such a clear idea of what a "good" comparison is, then you should provide it so we can all benefit. Some would say listing out a litany of criticisms based on what _you_ consider a good comparison could be an alpha dog reaction.


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## Mark Schmieder (May 2, 2021)

I generally consider it rude not to provide an alternative when I criticize something, but it doesn't mean harm or disrespect was intended when someone doesn't do that.

I'm currently helping a startup company with business plans, branding, logos, etc. and I always make sure that I follow any critique with constructive examples. But sometimes I forget, and then I immediately edit what I wrote.

So let's not get personal, and either move on or produce an alternate comparison using different criteria, or just accept that we may or may not find this comparison useful (or useful for every purpose).

I personally found the original comparison thought-provoking, precisely because the results went contrary to my expectations. Delving into why that was the case, proved very educational for me.

And I know how much work it takes to do these (otherwise I'd do them myself!), so I deeply respect the time and effort by the O.P.


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## RogiervG (May 2, 2021)

ok, i let my opinion rest, for that my thoughts on how to do comparisons are not supported by others here. (i am in minority) .. Before you might think it gives me a negative emotion: no, it is completely OK! I have no problems with that at all.
That how things fare, in a discussion/forum thread; people either support a throught, or don't.


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## madfloyd (Sep 8, 2021)

Ben said:


> In this case it is not necassary: Go to the product page and get your 30 days free demo license


Is this still available? I don't see it.


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## Ben (Sep 8, 2021)

madfloyd said:


> Is this still available? I don't see it.


No. The demo licenses were only available during the sale.


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## madfloyd (Sep 8, 2021)

Ben said:


> No. The demo licenses were only available during the sale.


Ahh, thought the sale was still on until October 4th but perhaps that's a different sale?


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## Ben (Sep 8, 2021)

madfloyd said:


> Ahh, thought the sale was still on until October 4th but perhaps that's a different sale?


Yes, probably last year's sale.


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## Stevie (Sep 21, 2021)

Just wondering: I can only spot one English Horn in the SYN Woods, but there used to be 2: French and Viennese.


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## Stevie (Sep 21, 2021)

xsubs said:


> That's the Oboes... there is only one English Horn


Nope.





__





ENGLISH HORN (VIENNESE) - Vienna Symphonic Library


Das Englisch Horn ist das Altinstrument der Oboenfamilie. Seit der Klassik wurde es aufgrund seines melancholischen Klangcharakters immer wieder zur Darstellung von ländlich-pastoralen Szenen sowie zur Ausführung elegischer Weisen eingesetzt.




www.vsl.co.at









ENGLISH HORN (FRENCH) - Vienna Symphonic Library


The English horn is the alto instrument of the oboe family. Since the Classical era, orchestras have made use of the English horn’s melancholy sound to suggest rural and pastoral scenes and to perform mournful airs. It is chiefly an orchestra instrument.




www.vsl.co.at


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## Stevie (Sep 21, 2021)

Hence, why I'm asking


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## Ben (Sep 21, 2021)

The second English horn (viennese) from the VI collection was not SYNCHRON-ized and for this reason it's not available as SYNCHRON-ized instrument.


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## Stevie (Sep 21, 2021)

Thanks for clarifying Ben.


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## DaddyO (Sep 21, 2021)

xsubs said:


> I'm not sure I understand... the list doesn't show a second English Horn. Where are you reading that there should be a second? I copied that right from the VSL site, and opened my library to look.
> @Ben... can you clarify


Stevie didn't say there should be a second EngHorn, he asked why there wasn't one in SYzd WW when the VI version had it.


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## madfloyd (Sep 21, 2021)

Which is still not answered.


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