# Is Middle C C3 or C4?



## jononotbono (Apr 22, 2016)

So,

I am learning Music Theory and I am a little confused. What is Middle C? C3 or C4? It seems to differ between the two (especially between Sample Devs and Theory Books/Papers) and this is a little confusing. I've wondered this for a while and just use both at the minute.

Thanks

Jono


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 22, 2016)

I think C4 is more common since C1 ends up being the lower C on a piano. But many people prefer a 0 index system so then it ends up being C3.


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## Daryl (Apr 22, 2016)

Both. There are two standards, one championed by Yamaha (C3) and one by Roland (C4). FWIW Scientific Pitch Notation, Middle C is C4


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## Paul T McGraw (Apr 22, 2016)

Middle C on a piano is C4


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## capitaljazz (Apr 22, 2016)

In the piano tuning world the low A is refered to as A0 which would make middle C notated as C4 (This also allows the Bosendorfer 290 with 97 keys to have its lowest note listed as C0 which corresponds to the lowest pedal on pipe organs).


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## Karma (Apr 22, 2016)

Just here to cast my vote for C4. That is what it's always been to me!


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## Ashermusic (Apr 22, 2016)

Logic defaults to C3.

Obviously on a real piano it is C4 but since Yamaha was selling a boatload of DX-7s back in the day, which was not 88 keys, they adopted C3.


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## tack (Apr 22, 2016)

It's either. And both. Everyone has a standard.

When I talk about any note, I always define what middle C is. ("I have this sample release bug when I strike F#5, where middle C is C4.")


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## jononotbono (Apr 22, 2016)

Arghhhhh...

Haha! Ok. I'm going with C4. When I look at the lowest C on a Piano or 88 note controller, it is actually there... existing, so in my opinion it is C1 not C0/Not there. It's the first C so therefore C1 makes sense. Until it doesn't of course...


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 22, 2016)

Cubase/Steinberg/Yamaha says C3, I think technically that's incorrect. Alexander Publishing had a long winded explanation about it being C4 but I can't seem to find it...


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## Hans Adamson (Apr 22, 2016)

Yes, there are two different standards, I think Roland and Yamaha. I think you can choose which you would like to use in Kontakt.


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## JJP (Apr 22, 2016)

Only some synth people will use C3 as middle C. Any other musician or theorist will refer to middle C as C4.


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## jamwerks (Apr 23, 2016)

Too bad you can't change it in Cubase. Pretty sure in Logic you can!


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## Smikes77 (Apr 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Arghhhhh...
> 
> Haha! Ok. I'm going with C4. When I look at the lowest C on a Piano or 88 note controller, it is actually there... existing, so in my opinion it is C1 not C0/Not there. It's the first C so therefore C1 makes sense. Until it doesn't of course...



Having said that, the first 'year' was 0 and not 1!


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## jononotbono (Apr 23, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> Having said that, the first 'year' was 0 and not 1!



I'm going to ignore this! Haha!


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## Smikes77 (Apr 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I'm going to ignore this! Haha!



You can't. Don't fight it. It's there.


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## jononotbono (Apr 23, 2016)

Think I might just buy a Grand Piano with 12 notes. Then there can be no confusion.


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## Smikes77 (Apr 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Think I might just buy a Grand Piano with 12 notes. Then there can be no confusion.



Or a toy piano with 1 octave.


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## Suganthan (Apr 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Think I might just buy a Grand Piano with 12 notes. Then there can be no confusion.


Even http://internetmatuer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Piano-de-David-Guetta.jpg (better)


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## jononotbono (Apr 23, 2016)

Have some class man. I was thinking something like this...


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## Smikes77 (Apr 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Have some class man. I was thinking something like this...



I haven't laughed so much in ages!!!!


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## jononotbono (Apr 23, 2016)

Acoustic EDM is gonna be big man. Haha!


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## chrysshawk (Apr 30, 2016)

261.625565 hertz


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## jononotbono (Apr 30, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> 261.625565 hertz



Cool. So which Key do I press? haha


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## Reactor.UK (Apr 30, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Cool. So which Key do I press? haha


I think it's one of the white ones.

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

However, that's assuming one is tuning to middle A at 440hz

On a serious note, not middle C, if different orchestra's tune slightly differently, I assume the piano has to be retuned?


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## jononotbono (Apr 30, 2016)

Well, the Prague Philharmonic (for example) tunes to A 441 and not A 440 so there's no way you would get them to retune their Piano which is hundreds of years old etc. It would be best to make sure your Music (any accompaniment) is tuned in A 441. Well, this is what I have been told rather recently by someone that has recorded with them.

I was originally just concerned with the physical location of the Middle C Key but it's certainly interesting.


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## zacnelson (Apr 30, 2016)

I think on Pro Tools it's C3 - am I correct? I'm confused now


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## Reactor.UK (May 1, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I was originally just concerned with the physical location of the Middle C Key but it's certainly interesting.


I know 

I just had this imagine in my mind of a piano tuner having to returne the whole piano which made me smile as I was rhetorically asking.

Sorry [name], 1hz higher please. [Hours later]... I'm terribly sorry, it's the LSO is tonight, my fault. 440hz it is then. 

I had the BPO in mind from listening to Holsts' Planets Suite at school eons ago.

Anyway. Sorry for derailing the topic a little.


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## jononotbono (May 1, 2016)

Haha! It's absolutely fine. No need to apologise!


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## Daryl (May 1, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Well, the Prague Philharmonic (for example) tunes to A 441 and not A 440 so there's no way you would get them to retune their Piano which is hundreds of years old etc. It would be best to make sure your Music (any accompaniment) is tuned in A 441.


What you can do is prepare your backing tracks to whatever you like and then record your orchestra with a tiny sample rate change to make the audio play faster. Then when you go back to the original sample rate, the audio will be in tune with your backing.


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