# Buying a Synthesizer to also use as a MIDI Controller???



## RRBE Sound (Dec 5, 2021)

Dear All,

I was looking around the forum and wasn't able to really find anything about this topic.

For the past 6-8 maybe 9 years, I have been working on MIDI keyboards. And though I do know, that there are a lot of fantastic MIDI keyboards out there, I want to purchase my first ''real'' synthesizer. 

However, this should not just be a synthesizer, but also become my main MIDI controller keyboard.

I have been looking at the Novation Sumit, as it seems to be a best of both (also it has to have 61 keys - due to space limitations, and fall within the budget).

Why am I wanting this ... well I simply do not have enough space to expand to a large selection of synthesizers, therefore, combining the two seems to be a perfect compromise. 

So, my question for debate is, how is your workflow if you use a synthesizer as your MIDI keyboard also and then which one do you use???

I hope some of you can help shed light on this matter.

Thanks! 

Best
Rune


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## Gerbil (Dec 5, 2021)

That Summit looks really good. Loads of controls. But I can see straight away that things like wave selections might cause frustration. And that's the problem for me...

I've tried a Prophet 08, a Sledge, a System 1 and several others and they all get so far but not quite there. I think the big problem is that it's either all or nothing. The second I have to try and remember what function I gave to a knob, slider or button that doesn't do what it says, I get frustrated. Try and map a minimoog to a Prophet 08 and you only get two oscillators on the latter so you have to grab other non related knobs for the third oscillator and then you forget forget what they are just as easily as when using any generic midi controller.

Then there's the problem that some midi knobs aren't rotary so things wont move as far as they need to, or they change functions in erratic ways. Sure, for filter settings and envelopes they're fine but I find the experience tantilising but not satisfying.

So I nearly always just stick to my SL88 Grand with a Mixface and a Novation Launch Controller XL MKII with overlays. I do use a Reface CS with my laptop and that's pretty good for basic functions and has a very small footprint (and very decent minikeys).

By far the best solution for me was buying the Repro 1 SFC-1 controller from Soundforce. Everything is catered for (except turning the fx modules on and off) so I don't need to look at the screen at all when programming Repro. It also works for much of Repro 5, although they've make a separate controller for that. (Not what you're asking but thought I'd mention it in case any one else is interested.)


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## digitallysane (Dec 5, 2021)

RRBE Sound said:


> So, my question for debate is, how is your workflow if you use a synthesizer as your MIDI keyboard also and then which one do you use???


I use a MODX 6 as a synth and primary controller. Has a mode for DAW remote which works nice (as nice as Mackie protocol allows) and a mode for generic plugin control. Very nice transport controls that I use a lot while working with Nuendo.
Besides the basic MIDI controller stuff (knobs and buttons and sliders, all very configurable), it has the advantage of offering some very interestig options like using the built in arppegios, 8 zones etc. 
You can also use it simultaneously as a synth and control VIs via MIDI.
A Montage, while more expensive, offers a lot more buttons and sliders (and a better audio interface). 

I also have a Studiologic SL73 which I sometimes use to drive the MODX because of its weighted action, but the MODX is the favoured controller for 90% of the time.


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## dcoscina (Dec 5, 2021)

I keep looking at the roland Jupiter XM as a mini controller but it also has amazing sounds. A bit hefty price wise but nice little guy.

I use a Kurzweil PC3x still as my
Main controller and it also has some great synth sounds… lots of faders too which is nice


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## parapentep70 (Dec 5, 2021)

Roland FA series (FA06, 07 and 08) are also very nice as both synth and controllers. The 3 are exactly the same except the keybed. FA06 is extremely light (5.5Kg), good before and after the gigs. FA07 is more balanced, too wide to fit in the car's trunk and 8.5 Kg with a much better key action. FA08 is a very good piano KB, but weight is 16.5Kg if I remember properly.


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## noises on (Dec 5, 2021)

I use a Yamaha Ex5 and love it because it has (see image below) two modwheels and breath controller input. Fantastic incredible sonic capacity. Downsides would be that it has only 76 keys unweighted keys. You can pick them up for a pittance. Now over twenty years old rock steady midi. Cant recommend it enough.


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 5, 2021)

Gerbil said:


> That Summit looks really good. Loads of controls. But I can see straight away that things like wave selections might cause frustration. And that's the problem for me...
> 
> I've tried a Prophet 08, a Sledge, a System 1 and several others and they all get so far but not quite there. I think the big problem is that it's either all or nothing. The second I have to try and remember what function I gave to a knob, slider or button that doesn't do what it says, I get frustrated. Try and map a minimoog to a Prophet 08 and you only get two oscillators on the latter so you have to grab other non related knobs for the third oscillator and then you forget forget what they are just as easily as when using any generic midi controller.
> 
> ...


Great response @Gerbil - So the Repro 1 is a controller not also a synth?


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 5, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> I use a MODX 6 as a synth and primary controller. Has a mode for DAW remote which works nice (as nice as Mackie protocol allows) and a mode for generic plugin control. Very nice transport controls that I use a lot while working with Nuendo.
> Besides the basic MIDI controller stuff (knobs and buttons and sliders, all very configurable), it has the advantage of offering some very interestig options like using the built in arppegios, 8 zones etc.
> You can also use it simultaneously as a synth and control VIs via MIDI.
> A Montage, while more expensive, offers a lot more buttons and sliders (and a better audio interface).
> ...


Ohhh! the MODX 6 looks great as well! - But nice with the integrated DAW control - I wonder if any other synths alike have this?


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 5, 2021)

Would love to hear more solutions. I ended up giving up on a synth as a controller because it sounded like a hassle. In the end I wound up with a nektar panorama T6 midi controller, and use its nektarine software and midiquest to control my compatible hardware synths (mostly rackmount/desktop synths) with custom layouts on the panorama.


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## parapentep70 (Dec 6, 2021)

No hassle at all with some modern synths. The case I know well, the Roland FA series is called a "Digital Workstation" and has a specific DAW mode (including not only normal MIDI but also transport, etc) and includes templates to manage some of the most used (software) DAWs in the market. Truly plug and play, zero hassle.


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## Voider (Dec 6, 2021)

RRBE Sound said:


> So, my question for debate is, how is your workflow if you use a synthesizer as your MIDI keyboard also and then which one do you use???


Just to leave this thought here: Be aware that hardware / analogue synthesizers can wear off, whether it's the knobs and faders or the pieces inside. I remember people said that the Behringer Deepmind 12 in general became pretty warm and its fans pretty loud. Now that's not normal for sure, but the bottom line is:

If you use your synthesizer everyday as bread and butter midi controller you might wear it off way earlier than its usual lifespan. For that purpose I'd probably just get a decent standalone midi controller, something like this, just a random example picture:


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 6, 2021)

Voider said:


> Just to leave this thought here: Be aware that hardware / analogue synthesizers can wear off, whether it's the knobs and faders or the pieces inside. I remember people said that the Behringer Deepmind 12 in general became pretty warm and its fans pretty loud. Now that's not normal for sure, but the bottom line is:
> 
> If you use your synthesizer everyday as bread and butter midi controller you might wear it off way earlier than its usual lifespan. For that purpose I'd probably just get a decent standalone midi controller, something like this, just a random example picture:


This was one of the concerns I had that led to me avoiding use of a hardware synth that way. Having a synth powered on as long as I normally do my midi controllers seems like unnecessary wear and tear. Finding a good midi controller to act as control for hardware has so far been less strenuous.


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## parapentep70 (Dec 6, 2021)

I am not sure I share this either. I beat my synth hard when I am rehearsing with the band or playing live, never composing at home. My synth is supposed to last years playing HARD every day. Working at home with a DAW I treat my controller with a lot more carefully in comparison (no direct Sun, dust, humidity or drinks around, on a desk, no dangling cables.... The synth I use live is expected to be good as a controller, so all faders and knobs are really (gig ready) encoders as rugged as in my dedicated controller (Ni Kontrol).

In my experience, once I had to live in 2 distant places, I used the Roland FA in one location and the NI Kontrol in the other. As DAW controllers, they worked equally well.


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 6, 2021)

chocobitz825 said:


> Would love to hear more solutions. I ended up giving up on a synth as a controller because it sounded like a hassle. In the end I wound up with a nektar panorama T6 midi controller, and use its nektarine software and midiquest to control my compatible hardware synths (mostly rackmount/desktop synths) with custom layouts on the panorama.


Indeed, - I am not sure this it the ''propper'' direction.. but it just seems like the best of both! :D


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 6, 2021)

parapentep70 said:


> No hassle at all with some modern synths. The case I know well, the Roland FA series is called a "Digital Workstation" and has a specific DAW mode (including not only normal MIDI but also transport, etc) and includes templates to manage some of the most used (software) DAWs in the market. Truly plug and play, zero hassle.


Interesting! This would enable that I can easily shift between synth setting and MIDI controller?


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## Double Helix (Dec 6, 2021)

A couple of us on the forum use a Korg Kronos (I have two: a 73-key for gigging and an 88 for practice, for programming, and as my midi controller)
Because they share the same weighted action, it is easy-peasy to switch from live to studio.

Fortunately, the Kronos is packed to the brim with great on-board sounds, many being sample based, so it lends itself to recording directly and controlling plugins. But that works for me; your experience my vary.
My advice would be to get a synth with an action you like; then, any on-board sounds are icing on the cake.

One more thing: do a search for Yamaha KX88--those who use one in their studio will never go back. As a pure controller (no onboard sounds) it has no equal (imho)
Good luck in your hunt!


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## parapentep70 (Dec 6, 2021)

My experience is limited to: NI Kontrol on the desktop (through _their _USB interface) to manage Reaper and Roland FA to my Laptop using Reaper _using standard MIDI_ to an USB audio/MIDI interface. I think I haven't ever tried to connect the FA to the DAW using USB simply because I have not done. I never tried to use the NI Kontrol on a standard MIDI interface (less functionality). I am sure both options do work, I simply needed a good external interface for the laptop.

My experience? I was working on the same projects from 2 different countries using Reaper files on Google Drive, same exact management. Well, the Mod Wheel in NI Kontrol Mk1 does not have the "spring" audio but that's just a Hw difference. I do not use regularly the "light guide" function in Komplete Kontrol, so I did not missed it in the FA.

When I worked like this I did not use the synth as a synth... but sometimes I turned on the synth with headphones (and not the laptop) just to play some stuff like in live situations.


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## RRBE Sound (Dec 6, 2021)

Double Helix said:


> A couple of us on the forum use a Korg Kronos (I have two: a 73-key for gigging and an 88 for practice, for programming, and as my midi controller)
> Because they share the same weighted action, it is easy-peasy to switch from live to studio.
> 
> Fortunately, the Kronos is packed to the brim with great on-board sounds, many being sample based, so it lends itself to recording directly and controlling plugins. But that works for me; your experience my vary.
> ...



Ahh, yea! I know the Kronos is a beast! - However, the footprint of it is as well..  A large, but sturdy piece of kit.



parapentep70 said:


> My experience is limited to: NI Kontrol on the desktop (through _their _USB interface) to manage Reaper and Roland FA to my Laptop using Reaper _using standard MIDI_ to an USB audio/MIDI interface. I think I haven't ever tried to connect the FA to the DAW using USB simply because I have not done. I never tried to use the NI Kontrol on a standard MIDI interface (less functionality). I am sure both options do work, I simply needed a good external interface for the laptop.
> 
> My experience? I was working on the same projects from 2 different countries using Reaper files on Google Drive, same exact management. Well, the Mod Wheel in NI Kontrol Mk1 does not have the "spring" audio but that's just a Hw difference. I do not use regularly the "light guide" function in Komplete Kontrol, so I did not missed it in the FA.
> 
> When I worked like this I did not use the synth as a synth... but sometimes I turned on the synth with headphones (and not the laptop) just to play some stuff like in live situations.


Great to hear A nice comparison of the use of the two! - Jumping back and forth could cause some issues such as the ''getting used to this or that function''. And of course, if only the same functions are being used, this would not cause any problems


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## rgames (Dec 6, 2021)

The Prophet Rev 2 has the best keybed and controls of any synth-action keyboard I've used. If you use a lot of soft synths it's especially fantastic because all of the common things are labeled right in front of you (filter, envelopes, etc.) and you can MIDI map them to their corresponding soft-synth knobs. And besides all that, it's an awesome hardware synth.

Regarding wear and tear, have you guys ever been on tour? Nothing in the studio, no matter how often left on and used, approaches road wear. And people all over the world are carrying these things to all kinds of gigs all the time. And they work just fine. I can't see how studio use could possibly be an issue.

rgames


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 6, 2021)

rgames said:


> The Prophet Rev 2 has the best keybed and controls of any synth-action keyboard I've used. If you use a lot of soft synths it's especially fantastic because all of the common things are labeled right in front of you (filter, envelopes, etc.) and you can MIDI map them to their corresponding soft-synth knobs. And besides all that, it's an awesome hardware synth.
> 
> Regarding wear and tear, have you guys ever been on tour? Nothing in the studio, no matter how often left on and used, approaches road wear. And people all over the world are carrying these things to all kinds of gigs all the time. And they work just fine. I can't see how studio use could possibly be an issue.
> 
> rgames



the wear and tear I’m thinking about is the days where I’m using the controller for 8+ hours a day. My synths aren’t on that long when gigging so I just wonder how those hours add up daily in the studio.



RRBE Sound said:


> Indeed, - I am not sure this it the ''propper'' direction.. but it just seems like the best of both! :D



The only reason it’s worked out compared to other controllers is because the keyboard has faders and knobs, and their software lets you create as many pages as necessary to accommodate compatible software synths and hardware synth controller software. Midiquest closed the gap and allowed me to control my oberheim matrix-1000. Not for everyone, but again I just wonder what my studio hours would do to a hardware synth as a controller.


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## shmuelyosef (Dec 13, 2021)

I have used many instruments as controllers for the past 20+ years. All have been satisfactory within their capabilities...off the top of my head the list is (* indicates I still have it):
- Yamaha DX7 (...wish I still had this one)
- Yamaha P-80 (my son and his family inherited this one and it's still kickin')
- Roland XP-10 (my first 'actual' controller)
- Roland RD-500 (the worst hammer-action piano I have ever played)
- Nord Electro 3HP
* Nord Electro 5
* Nord Electro 6HP
- Novation SL MkII (used this quite a while, but programming it was time-consuming)
* Sequential OB-6
- Arturia Keystep
- Arturia Beatstep
* Novation SL MkIII (the best yet by far! on both Reaper and Ableton)

This does not include pure drum/rhythm controllers...

My point is...I have not found there to be an ultimate solution for controllers...it is OK to have multiple choices. e.g. I still use my antique Akai MPD18 (updated pads) for rhythm tracks, I use the sequencer on my Roland SE-02 independently of the synth...same for the ARP on the OB-6.

It pays to be creative with what you've got...I still record my Mk1 Rhodes analog when it's appropriate with the pedal block for effects (like a guitarist!)


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