# Why did John Williams not score all of the Harry Potter movies?



## erica-grace

He scored the first three, maybe four? Does anyone know why he did not do the rest? Scheduling conflicts? Maybe he just didnt want to do anymore of them? I find it impossible to imagine that the studio wanted to get someone else.


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## Sears Poncho

I don't think he scored even #2, regardless of his name being on it. Far inferior to 1. Obviously there were lots of orchestrators for all the movies.

I am playing all 8(?) of them, they do them with the movie being shown and the orchestra is live. We've done the first 2 so far, I think #3 is in Feb. Violin part is like a Wagner opera. It's seriously difficult and really long. The movies are pretty much constant music. I don't think one guy could actually do it all. Compared to other scores, it's 4x the music and 8x times the notes. The Quiddich (sp?) match in #1 is about as difficult as anything I've ever played: Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bartok etc. It's brutal and goes on forever. I think simple logistics and the time schedule of putting the movies out while the kids were still youngish had a lot to do with it.


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## CT

Sears Poncho said:


> I don't think he scored even #2, regardless of his name being on it.



I'm pretty sure that's not accurate. I was just reading something about this since the three Williams scores got a big release from La-La Land.

William Ross did some adaptation of material on the second movie because Williams had issues with his back, or something like that, but it wasn't anything more than adaptation. Fitting things to cuts, that kind of stuff.


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## whiskers

I presumed change of directors. You were right with scheduling conflicts for some, I think: 

Per wikipedia:



> John Williams scored the first three films and received Academy Award nominations for the first and third films.
> The _Harry Potter_ series has had four composers. John Williams scored the first three films: _Philosopher's Stone_, _Chamber of Secrets_, and _Prisoner of Azkaban_. However, the second entry was adapted and conducted by William Ross due to Williams's conflicting commitments. Williams also created _Hedwig's Theme_, which is used in every film in the series.
> 
> After Williams left the series to pursue other projects, Patrick Doyle scored the fourth entry, _Goblet of Fire_, which was directed by Mike Newell, with whom Doyle had worked previously. In 2006, Nicholas Hooper started work on the score to _Order of the Phoenix_ by reuniting with director David Yates. Hooper also composed the soundtrack to _Half-Blood Prince_ but decided not to return for the final films.
> 
> In January 2010, Alexandre Desplat was confirmed to compose the score for _Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – Part 1_.[63] The film's orchestration started in the summer with Conrad Pope, the orchestrator on the first three _Harry Potter_ films, collaborating with Desplat. Pope commented that the music "reminds one of the old days."[64] Desplat returned to score _Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – Part 2_ in 2011.[65]
> 
> Director David Yates stated that he wanted John Williams to return to the series for the final installment, but their schedules did not align due to the urgent demand for a rough cut of the film.[66] The final recording sessions of _Harry Potter_ took place on 27 May 2011 at Abbey Road Studios with the London Symphony Orchestra, orchestrator Conrad Pope, and composer Alexandre Desplat.[67]
> 
> Doyle, Hooper, and Desplat introduced their own personal themes to their respective soundtracks, while keeping a few of John Williams's themes.


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## Symfoniq

I was at a “Music of Harry Potter” symphony concert last month, at which the conductor (who is quite the Williams fan) states that Williams didn’t do Harry Potter 4 due to a scheduling conflict with Memoirs of a Geisha, which he’d wanted to score since reading the book.


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## Sears Poncho

miket said:


> I'm pretty sure that's not accurate. I was just reading something about this since the three Williams scores got a big release from La-La Land.
> 
> William Ross did some adaptation of material on the second movie because Williams had issues with his back, or something like that, but it wasn't anything more than adaptation; fitting things to cuts, that kind of stuff.


I think this could be another topic in itself: what a composer does do and doesn't do for a movie of this length. The first fiddle part to one of the HP films was 138 pages long! I've done a lot of music from his various movies, did the first Star Wars movie in concert. HP is on an entirely different level. I know that many orchestrators are listed in the credits, I'd love to know exactly what they were "given" to work with.

I really don't know, I'd be curious. No composer could write something of that magnitude in that amount of time without some serious assistance. Wagner had quite a few orchestrators working for him, often students of his. And maybe for #2, Williams was ailing etc and not quite himself, because the quality difference between 1 and 2 is really noticeable.


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## CT

Sears Poncho said:


> I think this could be another topic in itself: what a composer does do and doesn't do for a movie of this length. The first fiddle part to one of the HP films was 138 pages long! I've done a lot of music from his various movies, did the first Star Wars movie in concert. HP is on an entirely different level. I know that many orchestrators are listed in the credits, I'd love to know exactly what they were "given" to work with.
> 
> I really don't know, I'd be curious. No composer could write something of that magnitude in that amount of time without some serious assistance. Wagner had quite a few orchestrators working for him, often students of his. And maybe for #2, Williams was ailing etc and not quite himself, because the quality difference between 1 and 2 is really noticeable.



It is possible to see what Williams gives his orchestrators, and to hear what orchestrating a Williams score is like from those who've done it. I enjoy reading about that kind of thing.

The short answer is that they're given everything, as a condensed score, and then do the thankless job of creating a full score and parts. It's usually described as copy work, rather than orchestration.


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## NoamL

There's quite some mistaken information here unfortunately.

As a super fan of this score (Potter + the Star Wars prequels were what first interested me in film scoring) please permit some corrections of fact:

*"I don't think he scored even #2, regardless of his name being on it."* HP2 is JW's work. I know because I've seen a few of JW's short-score sketches that relate to that film. There is still a large amount of reuse of HP1 material in HP2, generally stitching bars together from previously used cues. Williams was aided in the task of adaptation by composer William Ross, who also conducted the recording sessions. HP2 also contains lots of original themes which are unmistakably JW's work, for example the themes for Fawkes, Dobby, Aragog, etc.

*"Obviously there were lots of orchestrators for all the movies."* There were two orchestrators working for JW on Potter 1 & 2, Conrad Pope and Eddie Karam. Orchestrating for JW is NEVER a euphemism for additional-composing, as it occasionally is today, and in fact the actual orchestration work consists mostly of moving notes from the sketch to the full orchestra layout.

For those who don't know how this works, maybe the following will be enlightening. Here is JW's "sketch" for the opening of the 2nd movie:






And the final orchestrated score, in Conrad Pope's writing:






Here's Conrad Pope's thoughts about it: _"With JW, every detail is generally accounted for_ [in the sketch]_: even in the string divisi and in the disposition of brass. The only discretion an “orchestrator” or copyist truly has is in the voicing of the woodwinds - and even there it is generally only with regard to their role in an “orchestral” tutti.... More than the “instrumental” assignments in JW’s sketches, what I find more important in making a correct and balanced orchestration are his *precise indications of dynamics and articulations.*_ [check out how many musical instructions, even pedal marks, slurs, crescendos, etc - are indicated in the sketch already!] _Here he reveals that he is a true master, not just of composition but rather of the mechanics of the orchestra and orchestral performance."_

*"He scored the first three, maybe four?"* Patrick Doyle did the fourth film, Nicholas Hooper did 5 & 6, and Alexandre Desplat did both "halves" of #7. In my opinion, Doyle struck the best balance between adapting JW's musical world and taking things in a darker, more mature direction as well. Just listening to the 10 minute cue "Voldemort," I have to wonder why he didn't take over the series permanently. Not to say that Desplat isn't a great composer or that I didn't like any aspects of his scores.

*"Does anyone know why he did not do the rest? Scheduling conflicts?"* No one knows for sure but it's an observable fact that JW puts Lucas and Spielberg ahead of other directors. Keep in mind as of 2006, JW was already 74 and he had just finished doing 4 movies for Lucas and Spielberg in 2 years, plus Memoirs Of A Geisha. Between "Memoirs" and the new Star Wars films, JW didn't really come out of retirement except when Steven Spielberg called.

*"The movies are pretty much constant music. I don't think one guy could actually do it all." *It illustrates how productive a great composer can be when *all he has to do is write the score on 8 lines on paper.* A way of working that is so different and so much more efficient than the way we all work now, and that JW had been accustomed to for over 40 years by the time he wrote the Potter films. He didn't have to turn in mockups, he didn't have to sit there and @#% around with MIDI, or tweak a mix, or print stems, or program percussion parts. All of his energy, time and talent was directed at writing notes, which again, is the total opposite of the way we all work now, where the score is completely written, orchestrated, performed, mixed, and mastered, from the start to the end, _twice, _and the first time (the mockup) necessarily happens on the composer's computer network.

*"No composer could write something of that magnitude in that amount of time without some serious assistance.*" What an unintentionally devastating commentary on the music all of us are producing today, if someone thinks JW couldn't have written it all because there's too many 32nd notes in the Violin 1 part. As you can see, he wrote out each of the notes you played.

*"I've done a lot of music from his various movies, did the first Star Wars movie in concert. HP is on an entirely different level."* They are from different style periods. JW as of Potter and the Star Wars prequels was exploring how much he could make his music richly orchestrated and ornate in its complexity and nuance. Possibly influenced by the early 20th century Russians like Prokofiev, and their French contemporaries too. JW as of Star Wars, ET, Jaws, is far more straightforward in his language, with the main influences clearly being jazz and JW's own predecessors in adapting post-classical German (Mahler, Wagner, Strauss) music to the screen like Walton and Korngold. Interestingly, as of the new Star Wars movies he seems to be moving back in that direction.


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## Land of Missing Parts

I say it as often as I can, while I still can: I think John Williams is the greatest living composer, at least that I've ever heard.


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## Sears Poncho

NoamL, I am not a superfan. I'm a working musician with a resume about 12 miles long  I'm not for/against JW or anyone, I'm just some guy who plays a whole lotta music for a long long time. And I'm an orchestrator as well. I had a chart played last nite by sym, I have another one tonight, I had 45 (new ones) this year I think done by symphony. I'm not trying to turn this into a dick-waving contest, really. I have no interest in that. I made some remarks about MY experiences, I've played the scores. I've also played a lotta opera, all the big-ticket ones.

For the sake of anyone following the thread, the violin 1 part to Mahler #1 is 20 pages. The vln1 to Beethoven 9 is 20 as well. The entire Nutcracker vln 1 is 53 pages. One of the HP scores I did was 138. So, I'm not just giving "opinion" here. It also requires overtime pay to be played in concert. I can show you the check stub.  Both 1 and 2 did. Rather than get into some boring BS, let's just agree that they are long long songs. 



NoamL said:


> *"No composer could write something of that magnitude in that amount of time without some serious assistance.*" What an unintentionally devastating commentary on the music all of us are producing today, if someone thinks JW couldn't have written it all because there's too many 32nd notes in the Violin 1 part. As you can see, he wrote out each of the notes you played.



Again: I like JW too. I have no interest in insulting your boy. The "superfan" stuff can be a bit much. A quick look at the credits for both the first films list many orchestrators. There are also copyists etc. Why I mention this is for anyone trying to learn about orchestration: I don't have a "copyist" or editor or proofreader etc. and you won't either So, that's a good amount of "time". IMDB lists 7 orchestrators (including JW) for #1. So again, not pulling things outta the air. If these 7 are imaginary, I really wanna get a gig like that. 

The actual "point": my interest in forums like this is often about young people who are thinking about/trying to get into the music biz. And in the real world, Mahler 1 vln 1 is available to download, as is Beethoven 9 etc. It can give some insight as to what we are talking about time-wise. JW probably has many rooms full of awards and bags of money everywhere, he probably trips over stacks of $100s. Nobody is interested in taking anything away from JW, superfan or not. He's great. I'm talking about what goes into something like this, not JW. A lot. Nobody is "accusing" JW of anything, he's obviously proven himself over 50-60 years.

For those of us who aren't JW, "orchestration" is somewhat like "music theory" in that it's a term that covers a lot of ground. Hairpins, cresc. and dim, dynamics, "dolce" blah blah. That stuff goes into scores too. Every dot, dash, accent, schmaccent. When someone says "the orchestrator has discretion over wind voicing", well, that's exactly what I said all along. It's a matter of time, not just talent.


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## AdamAlake

Sears Poncho said:


> NoamL, I am not a superfan. I'm a working musician with a resume about 12 miles long  I'm not for/against JW or anyone, I'm just some guy who plays a whole lotta music for a long long time. And I'm an orchestrator as well. I had a chart played last nite by sym, I have another one tonight, I had 45 (new ones) this year I think done by symphony. I'm not trying to turn this into a dick-waving contest, really. I have no interest in that. I made some remarks about MY experiences, I've played the scores. I've also played a lotta opera, all the big-ticket ones.
> 
> For the sake of anyone following the thread, the violin 1 part to Mahler #1 is 20 pages. The vln1 to Beethoven 9 is 20 as well. The entire Nutcracker vln 1 is 53 pages. One of the HP scores I did was 138. So, I'm not just giving "opinion" here. It also requires overtime pay to be played in concert. I can show you the check stub.  Both 1 and 2 did. Rather than get into some boring BS, let's just agree that they are long long songs.
> 
> 
> 
> Again: I like JW too. I have no interest in insulting your boy. The "superfan" stuff can be a bit much. A quick look at the credits for both the first films list many orchestrators. There are also copyists etc. Why I mention this is for anyone trying to learn about orchestration: I don't have a "copyist" or editor or proofreader etc. and you won't either So, that's a good amount of "time". IMDB lists 7 orchestrators (including JW) for #1. So again, not pulling things outta the air. If these 7 are imaginary, I really wanna get a gig like that.
> 
> The actual "point": my interest in forums like this is often about young people who are thinking about/trying to get into the music biz. And in the real world, Mahler 1 vln 1 is available to download, as is Beethoven 9 etc. It can give some insight as to what we are talking about time-wise. JW probably has many rooms full of awards and bags of money everywhere, he probably trips over stacks of $100s. Nobody is interested in taking anything away from JW, superfan or not. He's great. I'm talking about what goes into something like this, not JW. A lot. Nobody is "accusing" JW of anything, he's obviously proven himself over 50-60 years.
> 
> For those of us who aren't JW, "orchestration" is somewhat like "music theory" in that it's a term that covers a lot of ground. Hairpins, cresc. and dim, dynamics, "dolce" blah blah. That stuff goes into scores too. Every dot, dash, accent, schmaccent. When someone says "the orchestrator has discretion over wind voicing", well, that's exactly what I said all along. It's a matter of time, not just talent.



Wrong.


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## Jeremy Gillam




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## thesteelydane

Sears Poncho said:


> I don't think he scored even #2, regardless of his name being on it. Far inferior to 1. Obviously there were lots of orchestrators for all the movies.
> 
> I am playing all 8(?) of them, they do them with the movie being shown and the orchestra is live. We've done the first 2 so far, I think #3 is in Feb. Violin part is like a Wagner opera. It's seriously difficult and really long. The movies are pretty much constant music. I don't think one guy could actually do it all. Compared to other scores, it's 4x the music and 8x times the notes. The Quiddich (sp?) match in #1 is about as difficult as anything I've ever played: Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bartok etc. It's brutal and goes on forever. I think simple logistics and the time schedule of putting the movies out while the kids were still youngish had a lot to do with it.



The viola part is seriously difficult too, and in places very awkward and much, MUCH less idiomatic than usually from Williams. I've played all the Star Wars suites (on both violin and viola) and there's not a single passage that doesn't fit the instrument. Difficult at times, yes, but always idiomatic. The Harry Potter movies - not so much. There's a whole lot of WTF passages in the string writing. Just saying my experience is exactly the same as @Sears Poncho.


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## HelixK

AdamAlake said:


> Wrong.



There's so much information "from the trenches" in Sear's reply, you can't just say "wrong" and not elaborate... the suspense is killing me


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## ism

thesteelydane said:


> The viola part is seriously difficult too, and in places very awkward and much, MUCH less idiomatic than usually from Williams. I've played all the Star Wars suites (on both violin and viola) and there's not a single passage that doesn't fit the instrument. Difficult at times, yes, but always idiomatic. The Harry Potter movies - not so much. There's a whole lot of WTF passages in the string writing. Just saying my experience is exactly the same as @Sears Poncho.




What counts as a WTF viola passage?


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## Jeremy Gillam

ism said:


> What counts as a WTF viola passage?



16th notes.


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## ism

Jeremy Gillam said:


> 16th notes.



Seriously - that was not intending a setup for viola jokes! I have nothing but love for violas!


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## Chr!s

erica-grace said:


> Does anyone know why he did not do the rest?



Because even then, he was old as hell.

I can't imagine being 71 years old, writing the kinds of scores he does and being condemned to that one franchise for the next decade. I might be dead next Tuesday, and you want me to commit to this?


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## lux

Jeremy Gillam said:


>




I watched all of them, and while it's definitely an interesting work I found the whole analysis lacking completely the concept of evolution. The characters change a lot in the serie. I remember myself how being 17 was completely different from being 11. "My" music was different, the music around me was different, and, finally, my feelings were totally different.

The analysis then completely lost me on the intro sequence of HP7pt1 marking it just as "action strings" where that's probably one of the most brilliant opening of the last few years with a perfect balance between storytelling and music.

All in all I disagreed with most of what's been said in the videos. Cause it takes three vids to basically blame other composers for not being JW. Not detailed as JW. Not magical as JW. Not approaching themes like JW does.


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## Olfirf

Well, there certainly is contribution of orchestrators, sometime more or sometimes less, as you can read from the Conrad Pope quote Noam posted. Things can occur like health issues which sometimes increase the role of orchestrators, as the financial undertaking of major movies certainly won’t let something like that mess with their schedule. In these cases, i think orchestrators should get more recognition, like credits and money. I guess, because of the Oscar rules, the credits rarely happen! 
But however you turn it: it seems very clear to me that Mr. Williams has more than once proven that he is perfectly capable of writing a full movie score without any help, while the more recent composers like Zimmer have a whole lot of help (not all of them!). Just take a look at all of the given credits to additional composers, arrangers and multiple orchestrators.  There is no question about it IMO


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## CT

Olfirf said:


> But however you turn it: it seems very clear to me that Mr. Williams has more than once proven that he is perfectly capable of writing a full movie score without any help, while the more recent composers like Zimmer have a whole lot of help (not all of them!). Just take a look at all of the given credits to additional composers, arrangers and multiple orchestrators.  There is no question about it IMO



Well, nobody does media music on their own.

Williams, and that type of composer in general, can deliver a fully performable, written score, and conduct it. He can't perform it all on his own, and probably can't do much to record it, or engineer it.

Zimmer, and that type of composer in general, can deliver a finished and polished mockup which will sound pretty darn good, and could probably handle some of the recording and engineering tasks. He probably couldn't give real players the written material they would need for a real performance, or conduct such a performance.

...to say nothing of music editors and all of the other roles that you don't often hear about.

They're just two sides of the same coin, if you ask me.


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## Jeremy Gillam

lux said:


> I watched all of them, and while it's definitely an interesting work I found the whole analysis lacking completely the concept of evolution. The characters change a lot in the serie. I remember myself how being 17 was completely different from being 11. "My" music was different, the music around me was different, and, finally, my feelings were totally different.
> 
> The analysis then completely lost me on the intro sequence of HP6 marking it just as "action strings" where that's probably one of the most brilliant opening of the last few years with a perfect balance between storytelling and music.
> 
> All in all I disagreed with most of what's been said in the videos. Cause it takes three vids to basically blame other composers for not being JW. Not detailed as JW. Not magical as JW. Not approaching themes like JW does.



Good points! Those videos don't represent my opinions, but I found them to be interesting food for thought. The style of filmmaking changed so much over the course of 10 years -- how could the music not change also? 

JW did amazing work as he always does (I love his work on the third film), but there are some wonderful musical moments for me in the series from the other composers which that critic seems to undervalue, for example the wand lighting scene by Nicholas Hooper after Dumbledore dies in film six, and the first statement of Lily's theme by Desplat at the very beginning of 7 part 2.


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## Olfirf

miket said:


> Zimmer, and that type of composer in general, can deliver a finished and polished mockup which will sound pretty darn good, and could probably handle some of the recording and engineering tasks. He probably couldn't give real players the written material they would need for a real performance, or conduct such a performance.


Yes, but those skills are more those of a producer/engineer. The concept side (writing the music) is IMO the main job of the composer and that is what composers also did historically. But I am not talking merely about the shifting of skills asked from composers today. I am also talking about how many people work on writing the actual music (regardless of wether it was written on paper or played in the DAW).



miket said:


> ...to say nothing of music editors and all of the other roles that you don't often hear about.
> They're just two sides of the same coin, if you ask me.


Yes, those guys, too! The sheer speed many films are scored today requires a factory with multiple specialized workers. It doesn't resemble the historic idea of one guy (or girl) writing down musical ideas. It is a totally different job today. The composer is a "music director" and giving instructions for a team to work on. Not to say, all composers work like that, but some seem to do it looking at the credits and co-workers expertise.


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## jbuhler

Olfirf said:


> It doesn't resemble the historic idea of one guy (or girl) writing down musical ideas.


It rarely happened this way historically and I would say Zimmer’s method is closer to studio era production. Uncredited composers are historically the norm. A good account is provided in Neumeyer and Platte’s book on Waxman’s very fine score to Rebecca. Many cues for the film were not written by Waxman. Lots of uncredited orchestrators were used. Contracts for this work are in the corporate production records so it was not at all secret, simply not advertised. The music was also owned absolutely by the studio and Waxman had to appeal to Selznick personally to play his suite from the film live on the radio.


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## Sears Poncho

Olfirf said:


> But however you turn it: it seems very clear to me that Mr. Williams has more than once proven that he is perfectly capable of writing a full movie score without any help,


..and concert music, and concertos, and whatever he wishes. 

Those of us in the orchestra biz are somewhat familiar with his music, and not just the "hits". It makes up a lot of our "pops"programs. Things like "The Cowboys" Overture, Fiddler on the Roof (not only did he orchestrate but he wrote the violin cadenza and the Concert Suite)", the Theme from "Lost in Space" (my buddy played theremin when we did it a few years ago), The Olympic Theme, the NBC news theme, The Catch Me if You Can suite with sax, theme from "The Screaming Woman" (excellent TV movie, anyone who hasn't seen it should, it's on youtube). The March from 1941 is an orchestral staple, Witches of Eastwick, Finding Neverland from Hook is popular, there's a concert suite from "The Fury" etc. Did something from "Sugarland Express" a few years ago. There's always a "Music of John Williams" show pretty much everywhere that will mix the hits with stuff like the piece from Amistad with the childrens choir then play something he didn't write but played piano on like Peter Gunn.

As for the hits, I played a suite from Star Wars the summer after it came out, I was 14 and was at a summer music school/festival. Been playing it for 40 years. Stuff like the Raiders March and Superman isn't really rehearsed, orchestras just run it once and turn it over. Every time a Star Wars film comes out, a selection from it will be on the music stands at a pops gig. I've played every possible version of Star Wars from the disco version to my own arrangements. I've made 3 versions of the Throne Room music, a difficult version of Imperial March for String quartet. I also did Schindler music for cello and string orch. I did orchestrations for choir and small orch of the "Merry Christmas" song and "SOmewhere in my Memory" from Home Alone. Raiders for String quartet, did that and Superman for school orchestras, did another version of Superman for pros. Every once and a while, a conductor will program something obscure like Conrack or Family Plot. It's pretty much endless. Do the Jaws suite every summer. And here and there someone will program his "classical" stuff. Us orchestra geeks are kinda familiar with his music.


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## thesteelydane

ism said:


> What counts as a WTF viola passage?



Awkward jumps skipping a string in a fast passage that doesn’t allow for any clever fingering to solve the problem, skipping notes in fast runs, etc... all the usual non idiomatic suspects.

And of course thinking violas can play as fast as violins with the same ease...which is just not possible. Knowing Williams music inside out, I just can’t imagine he wrote all those passages - they stick out like a sore thumb compared to his usual deeply idiomatic writing.


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## lux

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Good points! Those videos don't represent my opinions, but I found them to be interesting food for thought. The style of filmmaking changed so much over the course of 10 years -- how could the music not change also?
> 
> JW did amazing work as he always does (I love his work on the third film), but there are some wonderful musical moments for me in the series from the other composers which that critic seems to undervalue, for example the wand lighting scene by Nicholas Hooper after Dumbledore dies in film six, and the first statement of Lily's theme by Desplat at the very beginning of 7 part 2.



yup, while I disagreed with many of the critiques expressed in the videos, I too found myself watching all of them and enjoying the memories of so many nice themes and musical moments. So thanks for posting it.

Btw, I made a typo, I mean I lost the author on the critique of the intro of HP7pt1 (not HP6 as I wrote). That intro with the music by Desplat is one of my favourite sequences of the serie.


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## resound

I watched the three analysis videos and I totally agreed with his critiques. The point is not that the other composers should have tried to "sound more like Williams", and I don't think he was blaming the composers. If anything he was placing the blame on the directors. There were a lot of great musical moments in the later films, but also a lot of missed opportunities. In many cases, while the movie and characters evolved, becoming more complex, the music instead devolved by completely abandoning previous themes and musical ideas (including the 3rd movie also scored by Williams), therefore becoming less complex and having less emotional weight. I recently rewatched the films and had the same thoughts about the "epic" string ostinatos and war drums. Those cues didn't feel like an "evolution" of the Harry Potter musical landscape, but rather a sign of the times; directors trying to make the movies fit in with the musical landscape of Hollywood trends rather than evolving/building upon the musical landscape that was already established. It all felt very generic to me, and didn't sound like it belonged in a Harry Potter movie. 

The lack of memorable themes/abandoning of established themes is where I really felt the score devolved. Imagine watching TFA or TLJ without any of JW's themes. Without the Force theme, without Leia's theme or Yoda's theme. Whether you liked those movies or not, you have to admit that those themes bring an additional layer of complexity and emotion to the story. I would bet this is why JW didn't come back to the Harry Potter series, regardless of schedule conflicts. He probably wouldn't have been happy creating a score for a movie that completely abandons what was established in the previous films.


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## NoamL

I didn't mind that the later movies (post-Doyle) went in a more modern sonic direction. A little more annoying that every subsequent composer insisted on creating their own themes, but understandable. However the thing I missed the most in the Hooper and Desplat movies was that they didn't seem, at least on the first listen or two, to be as motivically dense and interwoven as the first four movies.

Here's an example. In the first Harry Potter movie there are actually two "bad guy" musical themes. This one:

(0:15-0:45)


and this one:

(1:26-2:14)


the reason for having two themes is completely driven by the movie's story, and the central mystery in the plot.

Both themes are developed separately across the movie up to the final act, so that the listener is familiar with both of them. Then in the finale, when the two themes come together:

(2:30-2:50)


And you realize they always fit together, it's a moment of horrifying realization not only in the plot, but also in the music (well, horrifying for a children's movie!)

Also notice that even in the one cue, JW first sets up one theme, then the other, then shows you how they have fit together all along.

It's pretty perceptive of both the director and composer to see through all the flying brooms and magic spells and realize that Harry Potter isn't a fantasy or adventure story, it's really a whodunnit. It's Poirot for kids. So the music has a mystery to unlock as well as the story.

The later films seemed to be "Fantasy CGI Adventure Movies" first and foremost. This music, for instance:



just tells me that something is happening fast on screen, and it's somewhat wondrous/magical.

I didn't mind the "action drums" so much as the musical story not being as direct, motivically.

That's also why I liked Doyle's score the best, after HP1-3:



He too wraps up his movie with a big finale where all the themes come together.  There were maybe fewer opportunities to do this in the later movies.... and I'm a big fan of Desplat otherwise! Imitation Game, Godzilla, Girl With The Pearl Earring...


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## resound

NoamL said:


> However the thing I missed the most in the Hooper and Desplat movies was that they didn't seem, at least on the first listen or two, to be as motivically dense and interwoven as the first four movies.



Exactly! I probably wouldn't have minded the epic style scoring if there was more motivic development.


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## will_m

It would be interesting to hear the scores swapped around, for instance JW score in the final film and Desplat's in the first.

I think this might highlight how each score fits within the context of the film it was intended for. 

Its also good to remember the films were created largely with little foresight of events to come, so when JW's writes a cue for Snape for example he wouldn't have known where that arc was going.

I think its the same issue that TV composers face with long series that don't have written endings, how do you plan for development if you don't know where its going?


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## SterlingArcher

Here's the La La Land release - Harry Potter John Williams Soundtrack Collection. Shipping at La La Land closes on 19/12 and resumes 3/1


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## CT

Oh crap, it's a limited release?! I might have to get it sooner than I planned.


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## Consona

One thing is certain. I was listening to all the Harry Potter soundtracks and, with all due respect to everybody, only Williams stuff's stayed on my playlist.  

All those other scores feel sooo stiff and ponderous compared to his music.


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