# Anyone made any Dorico expression maps for OT libraries?



## benwiggy (Nov 23, 2022)

I've tried to make some Dorico Expression maps for Orchestral Tools Libraries -- Miroire, Tableau and others -- but they've not been very satisfactory.

I think it has something to do with the default (and Legato) Note length values - I don't know whether Legato should be 100% for the LEG samples to work well, for example.

I also find very fast notes difficult to find good samples for.

Any thoughts?


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## benwiggy (Nov 27, 2022)

I think I'm making more progress now. One of the issues is the long 'tail' on the notes in OT libraries -- 2.5 seconds. So you have to set the default duration quite short. Depending on what sample you've chosen for a given expression, you made to adjust that value within each expression, too.

I've finally got the Legato samples behaving a bit better as a result.

Also, you do need quite a lot of cases -- Accent Legato short note; Accent Legato Long note; Accent Natural Short note....etc, etc, etc.


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## TWY (Nov 28, 2022)

I wouldn't bother with shit like expression maps for notation programs. If you wish to put out a decent mockup, use a DAW. That's where the expressions maps will help. Notation programs I use just to print out parts for actual players. 

I would rather have a decent mockup through a DAW, rather than trying something cute with notation programs that really sound shitty even with expression maps. But that's just me.


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## benwiggy (Nov 28, 2022)

"Thank you for your advice." 🙄


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2022)

TWY said:


> I wouldn't bother with shit like expression maps for notation programs. If you wish to put out a decent mockup, use a DAW. That's where the expressions maps will help. Notation programs I use just to print out parts for actual players.
> 
> I would rather have a decent mockup through a DAW, rather than trying something cute with notation programs that really sound shitty even with expression maps. But that's just me.


Why would it sound shitty?


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## TWY (Nov 28, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> "Thank you for your advice." 🙄


Hahahaha. Sorry pal!


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## youngpokie (Nov 28, 2022)

TWY said:


> I wouldn't bother with shit like expression maps for notation programs. If you wish to put out a decent mockup, use a DAW. That's where the expressions maps will help. Notation programs I use just to print out parts for actual players.


I'm sorry but this comment is a bit idiotic (or perhaps just "shitty"?) if I may say so.

Anyone who wants instant and decent level of playback of notated material, for example while working on a composition, would benefit from pre-shaping as many articulations used in the material as possible. Why would you wait for the mockup stage to evaluate something you've just written? Why would people spend countless hours pre-mixing the template in a DAW for quality instant feedback and then zero time on pre-shaping articulations, which are possibly even more important? 



benwiggy said:


> you do need quite a lot of cases -- Accent Legato short note; Accent Legato Long note; Accent Natural Short note....etc, etc, etc.



The Kontakt versions of OT Berlin series have the option to tweak multiple parameters via CCs, things like attack, release, layering of accents for various degrees of note stress, etc. I don't use SINE so no idea if that's also the case there. But all this makes pre-shaping of articulations a lot more feasible and resulting playback more useful.

Dorico offers only two CCs per articulation for now, which severely inhibits the workflow, so it is not possible to have Dorico trigger all these controls on just a single patch. But a workaround is to load the same patch several times and edit each one. Still, Dorico's expression maps are already far more sophisticated than what's possible in Cubase. That alone, in my opinion, makes it worthwhile to work on articulations.


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 28, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> I think I'm making more progress now. One of the issues is the long 'tail' on the notes in OT libraries -- 2.5 seconds. So you have to set the default duration quite short. Depending on what sample you've chosen for a given expression, you made to adjust that value within each expression, too.
> 
> I've finally got the Legato samples behaving a bit better as a result.
> 
> Also, you do need quite a lot of cases -- Accent Legato short note; Accent Legato Long note; Accent Natural Short note....etc, etc, etc.


I'm a bit puzzled. Why would Dorico clip the end of the notes? I assume that is what is happening. Can you elaborate? It makes no sense to me that the tail is the issue unless Dorico is somehow cutting the sample short.


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## TWY (Nov 29, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I'm sorry but this comment is a bit idiotic (or perhaps just "shitty"?) if I may say so.
> 
> Anyone who wants instant and decent level of playback of notated material, for example while working on a composition, would benefit from pre-shaping as many articulations used in the material as possible. Why would you wait for the mockup stage to evaluate something you've just written? Why would people spend countless hours pre-mixing the template in a DAW for quality instant feedback and then zero time on pre-shaping articulations, which are possibly even more important?


Lol. Idiocy is exactly what you're doing, when you could have done it all in the DAW, and much better results achieved.


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## Daryl (Nov 29, 2022)

TWY said:


> Lol. Idiocy is exactly what you're doing, when you could have done it all in the DAW, and much better results achieved.


Much better? Or just less shitty? If you want to do it properly, hire an orchestra. Everything else is just a question of degree of "shitty"


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## TWY (Nov 29, 2022)

Daryl said:


> Much better? Or just less shitty? If you want to do it properly, hire an orchestra. Everything else is just a question of degree of "shitty"


Indeed. Everything (not else) is also a matter of budget.


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## benwiggy (Nov 30, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I'm a bit puzzled. Why would Dorico clip the end of the notes?


I don't think it clips the notes; in fact possibly the opposite: that the non-LEG samples overlap and 'blur' (perhaps I'm wrong in my diagnosis).

I've tried making Maps for OT stuff for a few years, and it was always unsatisfactory. I pretty much gave up on the LEG samples. However, I seem to be making some progress now, and everything seems to be behaving itself.


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## ed buller (Nov 30, 2022)

TWY said:


> I would rather have a decent mockup through a DAW, rather than trying something cute with notation programs that really sound shitty even with expression maps. But that's just me.


as you say...It's just you. Dorico 4 is an incredible score based DAW that is just as good as cubase and much more fun and inspiring for orchestral music...but THAT is just me !

best

e


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