# 5 Starter Libraries Compared



## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2020)

(Updated)


I recently decided to put my starter libraries (and myself) to the test, by remaking the same short piece using all five of them. This was mostly done for myself, to get to know their respective sounds, workflows, and overall pros and cons better, but I thought I might share the five versions here, along with my thoughts on how each of them worked out for me.


Everything is straight out of the box, with only volume levels and velocity values tweaked. No external reverb is used, and no other mixing or mastering is done. Please note that all libraries use the same percussion track (from CineSymphony) to put more focus on the sonic differences of the main strings / winds / brass sections.


*CINESYMPHONY LITE ($399)*



I’m very impressed by how far CineSymphony came, considering how basic it seems at first (with only 6 patches). The sound is fantastic, the playability and workflow top notch, and the only thing really missing to make it complete are some legato patches, solo instruments, and tonal percussion / harp. The sound and playability of the ensembles (and sections, that can be broken out from the ensemble patches) really make up for it though.


*BERLIN INSPIRE ($399)*



A slightly more harsh and narrow sound, with more reverb and longer tail in the recordings. Overall quite nice sounding, almost like a smaller Metropolis Arc, but still with som great punch, and very easy to work with. I did miss the individual sections from CineSymphony, but on the other hand this library comes with the legatos, solo instruments, and tonal percussion / harp that CineSymphony is missing, so together the two of them could be a good combination.


*NUCLEUS ($449)*



Nucleus offers a more modern tone than CineSymphony and Inspire, using a tighter space and most probably a different recording philosophy. The library sounds great though, and is just as easy to work with as the other two. It does include both ensembles, sections, and solos, as well as legatos and tonal percussion. I didn't personally like the sound of Nucleus at first, but came to appreciate the library much more after having worked with it for a while.


*BBCSO CORE ($449)*



BBCSO Core is a tricky one. Judging by the sound and amount of content alone I really like it, but unfortunately it has two issues that for me, are hard to overlook. The player is still a bit slower and at times unresponsive, and patches takes longer to load, and the timing of the short notes differ between the different velocity layers, making fast passages very tricky to get tight. If these two things are fixed it could easily become a favourite of mine.


*SPITFIRE ORIGINALS ($87)*



Considering it’s around a 5th of the price of the others I think Originals sounds great. The sound is very wet and a little harder to control, but the end result surpasses the price tag. The shorts are much tighter than BBSCO’s which is nice, and the Spitfire player is also not as slow here. Obviously this library is a bit more limited in terms of content (woodwinds and brass only come in octaves for example), but for under $100 I quite like it.


*SUBMIT OTHER LIBRARIES*

For anyone wanting to add (or re-add) a library, let’s stick to the following recommendations for the sake of consistency and easy comparisons:

Use the same percussion track (provided as audio) for all libraries, to put the focus on the main strings / winds / brass sections.
Do tweak MIDI velocities to fit the response of the respective library.
Do balance volumes to make the sections (strings, brass, woodwinds) match the original track.
Do balance the volumes of longs / shorts, to make them glue together and appear as the same articulation when needed.
Don’t add any EQ’s, compressors, or effects.
Don’t add any external reverbs. Use the build-in reverb when available.
Don’t add any limiting on the master channel, but do try to match the overall volume to the original track.
Here is the zip file with the Logic, Midi, and Audio Percussion track: *Download Here*


*LIBRARIES ADDED BY OTHER MEMBERS (V1, Using different percussion)*

Albion ONE by @Brasart

Metropolis Arc 1 by @Kevperry777

VSL SSE 1 by @EgM

EWHO by @EgM

BHCT by @Cheezus

RedRoom Palette Melodics & Colors by @philtsai

Project Sam Orchestral Essentials 1 & 2 by @Manuel Stumpf

Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra by @batonruse

Sonuscore The Orchestra by @MaxOctane

Albion 2 Loegria by @MaxOctane

SSO by @yiph2

SSO by @Vladimir Bulaev

Kontakt Factory Library by @Scamper

Iconica by @MrYamamoto

Spitfire Studio Orchestra Core by @Mornats

Miroslav Philharmonik 2 by @Jazzaria

Sonivox Orchestral Companion by @GGaca

Various Libraries by @Ran Zhou


*LIBRARIES ADDED BY OTHER MEMBERS (V2, Using the same percussion)*

Bernard Herriman Composer Toolkit by @Cheezus

Note Performer by @Timothy Schmidt

Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra by @yiph2

Kontakt Factory Library by @Scamper

Iconica by @MrYamamoto

VSL BBO by @ptram

Palette by @Shiirai

Logic Pro X Factory Library by @el-bo

VSL SSE 1 by @ptram

Virtual Playing Orchestra by @pbattersby

Metropolis Arc 4 by @Ruffian Price

Various Libraries by @Hendrixon

EWQLSO XP by @José Herring

EWHO by @Alfeus Aditya


----------



## Brasart (Jul 15, 2020)

Great experiment and great composition to test them with!

To be honest I find BBCSO to be miles ahead of all the other libraries here, and Inspire to be pretty far behind everybody else.
I quite like Cinesymphony & Nucleus, although not a big fan of Nucleus' brass when it goes forte+


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2020)

Brasart said:


> Great experiment and great composition to test them with!
> 
> To be honest I find BBCSO to be miles ahead of all the other libraries here, and Inspire to be pretty far behind everybody else.
> I quite like Cinesymphony & Nucleus, although not a big fan of Nucleus' brass when goes forte+



Thanks for listening! Is that based on your own experience with them or just regarding this very example here?


----------



## Brasart (Jul 15, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Thanks for listening! Is that based on your own experience with them or just regarding this very example here?



Regarding this piece!
I was actually surprised to enjoy Nucleus here, because I really didn't like how it sounded everytime I've heard that library before.

I often use BBCSO Pro myself so maybe I'm biased to its sound, but I really like how soft, flexible & wide it sounds here, comparing that to Inspire which sounds so harsh and narrow to me


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2020)

Brasart said:


> Regarding this piece!
> I was actually surprised to enjoy Nucleus here, because I really didn't enjoy how it sounded everytime I've heard that library before.
> 
> I often use BBCSO Pro myself so maybe I'm biased to its sound, but I really like how soft, flexible & wide it sounds here, comparing that to Inspire which sounds so harsh and narrow to me



I too was pleasantly surprised by Nucleus! And just as you I love the sound of BBCSO. The problems I had with it for this particular piece was partly the plugin itself, but mostly how surprisingly uneven the timing of the shorts were. I had to go crazy with the tightness slider to get it to sound acceptably on time. With the default setting it sounded like I had accidentally added some strange swing quantisation or midi humaniser plugin turned up to the max. Love it for slower stuff though!


----------



## unclecheeks (Jul 15, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I too was pleasantly surprised by Nucleus! And just as you I love the sound of BBCSO. The problems I had with it for this particular piece was partly the plugin itself, but mostly how surprisingly uneven the timing of the shorts were. I had to go crazy with the tightness slider to get it to sound acceptably on time. With the default setting it sounded like I had accidentally added some strange swing quantisation or midi humaniser plugin turned up to the max. Love it for slower stuff though!



That's one of my beefs with Spitfire, how sloppy the shorts are. Some of the shorts in SStS Pro have so much silence at the start, that they're pretty much unusable for me. And they're wildly inconsistent, which makes trying to do any ostinatos practically impossible with the RR. 

I mean, for libraries that cost several hundred dollars, can't they run an auto trim/crop batch on the samples? I don't care about capturing whatever "magic pixie dust" is in the 100ms before the attack, if it sounds completely sloppy when triggered through an arp, then something needs fixing.


----------



## Mike Fox (Jul 15, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I recently decided to put my starter libraries (and myself) to the test, by remaking the same short piece using all five of them. This was really only done for myself, to get to know their respective sounds, workflows, and overall pros and cons better, but I thought I might share the five versions here, along with my thoughts on how each of them worked out for me.
> 
> Everything is straight out of the box, with only volume levels and velocities slightly tweaked, internal reverbs turned off and some Valhalla Room and a Logic stock limiter added. Other than that just the default library mixes, with no EQs or compression.
> 
> ...



I don't own any of these, but i agree with your assessment.

Nucleus sounded the best to me. Lots of detail, and clarity, and the percussion really cut through! That was my favorite.

The Spitfire libraries sounded really washed out to me, almost as if there is too much reverb, which is masking the detail of things. They were my least favorite.


----------



## NoamL (Jul 15, 2020)

Great experiment, thanks for doing this very useful comparison. I feel Nucleus is the best for a "video gamey" rendition of this composition and Cinesymphony Lite is the best for a more "cinematic" version... and Nucleus wins overall. Great attitude behind the samples.


----------



## Everratic (Jul 15, 2020)

Overall, I like the Berlin Inspire version most, but I think the brass sounds best with Nucleus.


----------



## EgM (Jul 15, 2020)

@mybadmemory Cool! Love these experiments! I was wondering if it were possible to have the project file so I could test with some other libraries I have?

I think I prefer Cinesymphony Lite, Nucleus sounds ok but seems to lack dynamics compared to the others.


----------



## Alfeus Aditya (Jul 15, 2020)

They are all good, but nucleus sounds best for this piece and I don't like the version of the spitfire library. I think too much reverb is not suitable for this piece. Great composition!


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 15, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I recently decided to put my starter libraries (and myself) to the test, by remaking the same short piece using all five of them. This was really only done for myself, to get to know their respective sounds, workflows, and overall pros and cons better, but I thought I might share the five versions here, along with my thoughts on how each of them worked out for me.
> 
> Everything is straight out of the box, with only volume levels and velocities slightly tweaked, internal reverbs turned off and some Valhalla Room and a Logic stock limiter added. Other than that just the default library mixes, with no EQs or compression.
> 
> ...



Send this track to NFL Films it sounds like an old soundtrack to a 1970s Minnesota Vikings playoff run.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 15, 2020)

Thanks for making this comparison.

I think all the demos would sound fuller, richer, and have more depth, and detail if they were not hosted via SoundCloud.  Sorry to bring this up... but imho. Soundcloud sucks.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

unclecheeks said:


> That's one of my beefs with Spitfire, how sloppy the shorts are. Some of the shorts in SStS Pro have so much silence at the start, that they're pretty much unusable for me. And they're wildly inconsistent, which makes trying to do any ostinatos practically impossible with the RR.
> 
> I mean, for libraries that cost several hundred dollars, can't they run an auto trim/crop batch on the samples? I don't care about capturing whatever "magic pixie dust" is in the 100ms before the attack, if it sounds completely sloppy when triggered through an arp, then something needs fixing.



Yeah, the inconsistency is the tricky part. I totally understand varying preroll on patch level (though I prefer Audio Imperias approach of keeping everything the same and adjustable), but when it varies on note level, and even on round robin level, it makes things VERY tricky.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> I don't own any of these, but i agree with your assessment.
> 
> Nucleus sounded the best to me. Lots of detail, and clarity, and the percussion really cut through! That was my favorite.
> 
> The Spitfire libraries sounded really washed out to me, almost as if there is too much reverb, which is masking the detail of things. They were my least favorite.



Same here, I preferred Nucleus and CineSymphony! I'm sure the Spitfire libraries could shine at something slower and softer though! Regarding Inspire I agree with @Brasart that is sounds a bit narrow and harsh. Especially the string shorts.

Thanks for listening!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

EgM said:


> @mybadmemory Cool! Love these experiments! I was wondering if it were possible to have the project file so I could test with some other libraries I have?
> 
> I think I prefer Cinesymphony Lite, Nucleus sounds ok but seems to lack dynamics compared to the others.



Sure I guess that could be arranged! It's in Logic format, and the midi and instrumentation is slightly different for all five versions. Which libraries are you considering testing it with? Would you need the ensemble, or the section versions of the midi?


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Send this track to NFL Films it sounds like an old soundtrack to a 1970s Minnesota Vikings playoff run.



Not sure I'm familiar with those! Do you have any link to a piece like that you're thinking of?


----------



## EgM (Jul 16, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Sure I guess that could be arranged! It's in Logic format, and the midi and instrumentation is slightly different for all five versions. Which libraries are you considering testing it with? Would you need the ensemble, or the section versions of the midi?



Could try VSL, EW, 8Dio, I even have lots of custom older stuff that I wonder how it would sound. I do have Logic and the section tracks would work better I think. I'll contact you in private message, Thanks!


----------



## RonOrchComp (Jul 16, 2020)

Nice comparison!



Brasart said:


> To be honest I find BBCSO to be miles ahead of all the other libraries here,



For me, these exs plainly show how on par with everything else BBSO is. It sounds good, but not any better than the other exs. Different, but not better.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Nice comparison!
> 
> 
> 
> For me, these exs plainly show how on par with everything else BBSO is. It sounds good, but not any better than the other exs. Different, but not better.




In defence of BBCSO I could argue that this piece was written with the simpler libraries in mind, and for CineSymphony first, only using longs and shorts. Therefore I also only really used the very basic parts of BBCSO.

If I would have gone the other route, written a piece for BBCSO first, utilizing all of its articulations, it would have undoubtedly been impossible to recreate using the simpler libraries, and probably sound quite bad if moved over. 

To me it mostly proves that a library is an instrument that you need to know and write for, while considering it’s strong and weak points. Which for me was the point of doing this. To learn my libraries better.


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 16, 2020)

Thanks a lot for doing and sharing this comparison. Always very interesting to me! 

I wonder how it would sound with the Kontakt factory library.



mybadmemory said:


> Sure I guess that could be arranged! It's in Logic format, and the midi and instrumentation is slightly different for all five versions. Which libraries are you considering testing it with? Would you need the ensemble, or the section versions of the midi?



It would be interesting to hear a comparison of this bbcso core version and a bbc discovery version. The midi should be interchangable.


----------



## SlHarder (Jul 16, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> To me it mostly proves that a library is an instrument that you need to know and write for, while considering it’s strong and weak points. Which for me was the point of doing this. To learn my libraries better.



Thanks for taking the time to document your library survey project.

This would be time well spent for any hobbyist who wants to learn more about their owned libraries and would help with future purchase decisions.

I don't own a lot of libraries but I haven't taken the time to explore them in depth.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Thanks a lot for doing and sharing this comparison. Always very interesting to me!
> 
> I wonder how it would sound with the Kontakt factory library.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear a comparison of this bbcso core version and a bbc discovery version. The midi should be interchangable.



Good idea! I'll add a BBCSO Discover version, and perhaps @EgM can add a few more later as well!


----------



## rrichard63 (Jul 16, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Sure I guess that could be arranged! It's in Logic format, and the midi and instrumentation is slightly different for all five versions. Which libraries are you considering testing it with? Would you need the ensemble, or the section versions of the midi?


If I understand correctly, Logic can export sessions to OMF 2 (open media framework). It can be read by some other DAWs, and converted to some other formats by Suite Spot Studio's AATranslator. For a list, see



AATranslator - Home Page


----------



## Brasart (Jul 16, 2020)

If you ever export the midi files I can try to translate those into Albion One and Albion NEO, they are around the same ~400€ price point _(even though NEO doesn't have percussion and not a lot of articulations)_, no promises I'll have enough time but I can try


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

Brasart said:


> If you ever export the midi files I can try to translate those into Albion One and Albion NEO, there are around the same ~400€ price point _(even though NEO doesn't have percussion and not a lot of articulations)_, no promise I'll have enough time but I can try



An Albion Version would be really interesting! If anyone could make a version using Metropolis Arc 1, that would be amazing as well!


----------



## batonruse (Jul 16, 2020)

Owning most of these libraries I can say that Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra ($149) is right in the mix!


----------



## HeliaVox (Jul 16, 2020)

I too want to throw in my thanks for doing this. It was very enlightening!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

batonruse said:


> Owning most of these libraries I can say that Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra ($149) is right in the mix!



In the sense that it’s “just as good”?


----------



## batonruse (Jul 16, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> In the sense that it’s “just as good”?


Yes, an absolute great all rounder!


----------



## Kevperry777 (Jul 16, 2020)

I'm happy to make an ARK 1 version.




mybadmemory said:


> An Albion Version would be really interesting! If anyone could make a version using Metropolis Arc 1, that would be amazing as well!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2020)

Kevperry777 said:


> I'm happy to make an ARK 1 version.



Awesome! I’ll try to clean up and export the midi tomorrow!


----------



## Brasart (Jul 22, 2020)

Here is the version using Albion ONE !



So as you might know, Albion ONE only works with "high", "mid" and "low" sections for the orchestra.
It also doesn't have traditional percussion, but rather percussion intended for big cinematic hits, I've used their "Hyper Toms" to replace snares, but it's not as efficient so it's further back in the mix.
No tubular bells, crotales or timpani either.

Albion ONE definitely is more on the epic side of the starter library spectrum, I don't think I've would have chosen it for a piece like that - at least not on its own -, but rather BBCSO Pro.
Still it sounds fun, but definitely not the best of the lot for me.

As for the mix I went to embrace the massive scale of the library, so I've used quite a wet combination of mics, with a very small added level of reverb.
No color EQs, but a few compressors here and there, as well as on the master bus -- no drastic compression though.

If people want to hear the .wav outside of soundcloud and @mybadmemory is ok with it I can add a dropbox link


----------



## Kevperry777 (Jul 22, 2020)

This is ARK 1....except for percussion and flute which Ark 1 doesn't have. I just plugged in Kontakt Factory library. Not much tweaking done here....ark 1 string staccatos are a percussion section in and of themselves.


----------



## nolotrippen (Jul 22, 2020)

BERLIN INSPIRE all the way. The Spitfire Originals sounded much cleaner and more detailed than its big sister.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf (Jul 22, 2020)

Do we have the midi or a Cubase project available, so that I can tweak and try on some other libraries?


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks a LOT @Kevperry777 and @Brasart for the Albion 1, and Metropolis Arc 1 versions! So much fun to hear! I would probably not have chosen any of these libraries for this piece either, but I can certainly hear how it could have sounded if it had been done with any of these in mind from the get go!

In one way I kind of feel that it's not "fair" to the libraries to plug a piece written for one library into another like this, since all of them are very capable of making fantastic sounding tracks when written for specifically, but I still think it's great to fun to be able to compare their overall sound profile like this!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 22, 2020)

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Do we have the midi or a Cubase project available, so that I can tweak and try on some other libraries?



I'll send you a PM with a logic + midi file!

@EgM have already volunteered to make some VSL, EW, and 8Dio versions! If anyone would be interested in doing a Kontakt Factory Library version that would be interesting too!

I'll probably keep the thread title around Starter Libraries / Complete Packages Below $500, but feel free to try it out with anything you'd like!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 22, 2020)

Btw, if you PM me the share links, I'll add your versions to the first post as well! @Brasart @Kevperry777


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks for the effort all.
Watching this thread.


----------



## shireen (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks for this! I really like the results with Berlin Inspire. 
I would really like to hear one with VSL's Synchronized special editions. I think they would shine here


----------



## batonruse (Jul 22, 2020)

Could I also ask for you to share your Logic and midi file to test. Thanks


----------



## unclecheeks (Jul 22, 2020)

Brasart said:


> Here is the version using Albion ONE !
> 
> 
> 
> ...




To be honest, I think Albion One sounds the best to me, at least in context of this piece. Seems the most cohesive and full sounding of the bunch. Others either sounded too muddy or thin to me. Thank you, and MartinH for putting together these examples!


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 22, 2020)

I find this comparison very very interesting. Albion One sounded surprisingly good to me too and I quite like the MA1 version as well (which is cool because I actually have MA1).




unclecheeks said:


> Thank you, and MartinH for putting together these examples!



Don't thank me, the work has been done by all these other fine people in this thread!


----------



## EgM (Jul 22, 2020)

Here's Vienna Symphonic Library - Synchronized Special Edition 1



Note: I did not edit anything other than some random level mixing here and there, I'm not even using velocity crossfades, just note on velocities.


----------



## EgM (Jul 22, 2020)

Here's EastWest Hollywood Orchestra



As before, I did not edit anything, fixed some notes here and there for percussions so they're on the same map, no velocity crossfades in here either, Made it a bit harder.


----------



## philtsai (Jul 22, 2020)

Hey! Can you give me midi files that I can test them on my own libraries(Cinesamples, Nucleus Lite, Red Room Palette ), thank you! Best wishes!


----------



## José Herring (Jul 22, 2020)

Brasart said:


> Great experiment and great composition to test them with!
> 
> To be honest I find BBCSO to be miles ahead of all the other libraries here, and Inspire to be pretty far behind everybody else.
> I quite like Cinesymphony & Nucleus, although not a big fan of Nucleus' brass when it goes forte+



Agreed. 
BBCSO was the most musical of the original 5. Cinesamples and Nucleus were the tightest. I quite liked Nucleus though.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 23, 2020)

Thank you @EgM for the Vienna and Hollywood versions! I really like the Vienna version, and I'm a little surprised by how much smaller the Hollywood version sounded (not in a bad way) from what I was anticipating. If you send me the share links in a PM I'll add your versions to the first post as well!


----------



## EgM (Jul 23, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Thank you @EgM for the Vienna and Hollywood versions! I really like the Vienna version, and I'm a little surprised by how much smaller the Hollywood version sounded (not in a bad way) from what I was anticipating. If you send me the share links in a PM I'll add your versions to the first post as well!



I should've probably done EWHO another day, kinda rushed it...

I'll send you the links after work


----------



## Cheezus (Jul 23, 2020)

Did a version with Spitfire's Bernard Herrmann Composer's Toolkit. Only thing not from BHCT is the tubular bells from ISW Rhapsody.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 23, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> Did a version with Spitfire's Bernard Herrmann Composer's Toolkit. Only thing not from BHCT is the tubular bells from ISW Rhapsody.




On a crowded boat listening only on my cellphone atm, but from what I hear I absolutely love the BHCT version!!


----------



## philtsai (Jul 23, 2020)

I used Red Room Palette Melodics and Colors (freebie) and also, Alpine Project Viola which is freebie too cause Palette melodics dosen't have viola spicatto. I also used Studio one stock Reverb, Neutron 3 EQ and a limiter.


All the percussions are from The Free Orchestra by ProjectSAM except tubular bells and timpani which come from BBCSO Discover. They are all freebies too.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf (Jul 26, 2020)

Hello All,

I have prepared a version with Orchestral Essentials I + II from ProjectSAM:

Solo Flute from Orchestral Essentials II
All other instruments from Orchestral Essentials I
Effects chain being in use:

A bit of Fabfilter Pro-R Reverb on the main bus
A tiny bit of SSL bus compressor (Waves)
Little SSL G-Channel EQ (Waves) to add some bottom and sizzle
A small amount of saturation (Fabfilter Saturn)
Fabfilter Pro-L2 limiter (which is basically not doing anything at all on this track)


----------



## lux (Jul 26, 2020)

Nice and useful comparison, thanks. I have to say that I liked BBC Core version more than expected after reading your notes, and given the impression I had from demos previously.

I own Cinesymphony and love its tone. I would die for a version halfway between the full and the Cinesymphony. Something you can handle on a notebook but with more details and legatos.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 26, 2020)

lux said:


> I own Cinesymphony and love its tone. I would die for a version halfway between the full and the Cinesymphony. Something you can handle on a notebook but with more details and legatos.



Same here! If @CineSamples either did this, or updated the current CineSymphony to closer match the content of other current libraries in the same price range, it would be a dream come true.


----------



## batonruse (Jul 27, 2020)

Here's a version using Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra. Straight out of the box with absolutely nothing added.


----------



## Theladur (Jul 27, 2020)

batonruse said:


> Here's a version using Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra. Straight out of the box with absolutely nothing added.



Damn, this sounds great. To me, this sounds so nicely balanced and very atmospheric.
The sound of Amadeus always reminds me of the sound of old videogames from the Playstation 1/2 era. Could be useful for indie-game scoring, where one might want to achieve exactly this sound.
Definitely one of my next purchases.


----------



## Kev Laa (Jul 27, 2020)

I think Nucleus sounded the best of the bunch.It seemed to gel better and sounded more cohesive as a whole.Ive been looking for comparisons like this to help me choose a library.Nucleus is definitely for me.


----------



## Michael Stibor (Jul 27, 2020)

What a great idea for a thread. I personally thought that Cinesymphony was the best, With Nucleus being a close second. BBCSO sounded muffled to me. 

I was expecting more from the VSL Synchron and The ProjectSAM Orchestral Essentials though. Maybe it’s in the mix.


----------



## rrichard63 (Jul 27, 2020)

Michael Stibor said:


> Maybe it’s in the mix.


I think that's always a risk in collective projects like this, where the libraries, arranging and effects processing are all variables. But this project is worth that risk.


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 27, 2020)

The original examples from @mybadmemory were a terrific starting point. I loved the string dig from the Berlin Inspire. 

Then this thread turned into a wallpaper catalog. THIS IS AMAZING. Hear how each library might be good for something that another falls short in? It's like picking colors and patterns. 

Thanks, everybody, for contributing. 

Given that some sound far away and some sound close and present, I think a generous choice of mic positions is maybe a little underrated.


----------



## wwwm (Jul 27, 2020)

I can draw up a score in Sibelius for a Noteperformer demo.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 28, 2020)

I had NO IDEA so many other people wanted to contribute when I posted my original five versions. A big thank you to everyone! So much fun hearing my little tune though all of these libraries I don’t even own! :D

Adding the additional versions embedded in the first post proved difficult due to a number of reasons, but I will add links to the posts containing them to the first post later today!

Once again, thanks everyone! And keep them coming! <3


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 28, 2020)

I realize this might be bad for my GAS, since I now want to purchase Spitfire Studio Orchestra in the sale, just to make another version of this track... 😬


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 28, 2020)

Michael Stibor said:


> What a great idea for a thread. I personally thought that Cinesymphony was the best, With Nucleus being a close second. BBCSO sounded muffled to me.
> 
> I was expecting more from the VSL Synchron and The ProjectSAM Orchestral Essentials though. Maybe it’s in the mix.



The CineSymphony version was the first I made, so the track was really written around the capabilities of that library, which might explain the feeling. 

I also like that one and Nucleus the best. Nucleus has a clarity in it’s default sound that all of the others would need some serious mixing to achieve.

I do feel bad for some of the other libraries though, judging them on a track that wasn’t written for them.

I’m actually thinking of doing a slower/softer piece as well, starting from BBCSO this time around, to see which libraries would shine in that context!


----------



## Mornats (Jul 28, 2020)

Love this and I really enjoyed listening to all the different libraries. It's a great piece too 

Nucleus stands out as the best sounding for me. The dynamics and the synergy of the orchestra worked better than the others to my ears.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 28, 2020)

Original post updated with links to all later additions! Kirk Hunter and NI Symphony Series potentially on the incoming!

Are we still missing any key players in the starter library market?


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 28, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I’m actually thinking of doing a slower/softer piece as well, starting from BBCSO this time around, to see which libraries would shine in that context!



Looking forward to hearing someone make a Metropolis Ark 1 variant of that :D.




mybadmemory said:


> Are we still missing any key players in the starter library market?



Has one with just the Kontakt Factory Library been done yet?


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 28, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Has one with just the Kontakt Factory Library been done yet?



Nope! That would be interesting! Anyone up for it?


----------



## philtsai (Jul 28, 2020)

Maybe I could make another one by all freebie-libraries to this thread....


----------



## Tim_Wells (Jul 28, 2020)

*Thank you* for this great thread!! Would love to see more like it, but with other styles of music. 

Personally I like the Albion One version, but maybe that's because it sounded more epic. I'll be the first to admit that my taste in symphonic music is not highly sophisticated.


----------



## MaxOctane (Jul 28, 2020)

It seems everyone's using the same project file, but I can't find it in this thread. @mybadmemory can you post it again?


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 28, 2020)

_I double-dare some cheeky monkey to do this on the Proteus 2 Orchestral. _


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 28, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> _I double-dare some cheeky monkey to do this on the Proteus 2 Orchestral. _



I actually have a VERY old version of the same track (somewhat the same at least) for the Orchestral 2 expansion card for the Roland JV-1080. I could try to find it on my old hard drives...


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 28, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I actually have a VERY old version of the same track (somewhat the same at least) for the Orchestral 2 expansion card for the Roland JV-1080. I could try to find it on my old hard drives...



Oh I bet that's truly swashbuckling.


----------



## MaxOctane (Jul 28, 2020)

Here's Sonuscore *The Orchestra*:



@mybadmemory


----------



## Bman70 (Jul 28, 2020)

After listening to all the demos, I would categorize them very broadly on a spectrum with two extremes: 'Cinematic orchestral,' and 'Classical orchestral.' Of course there's crossover, but one is more like listening to a BBC concert on public television, the other more like watching a movie. 

I tend to favor cinematic, and I preferred Albion 1 for that.. so tempting to buy it now at barely over $300! Nucleus was great, like an 'Albion Lite' in my mind. 

I have Hollywood Orchestra Gold and that one sounded classical but not so much as the BBCSO. Cinesymphony seemed slightly more classical than Nucleus. 

I completely agree about Originals being hard to work with, turning into boomy mush at the slightest provocation. But I get some great 'emotional' ostinatos from it layered with a solo violin. 

Given the issues with Spitfire shorts, has anyone found this true of Albion 1?


----------



## Bman70 (Jul 28, 2020)

hmmmm... The more I listen, Berlin Inspire is flipping tight! And deliciously balanced . It strikes me as a 'Metropolis Ark Lite.' I can't help thinking the Albion version is mixed differently, it is a lot less clear among the three. Extensive reverb clouds? maybe.


----------



## Brasart (Jul 29, 2020)

Bman70 said:


> After listening to all the demos, I would categorize them very broadly on a spectrum with two extremes: 'Cinematic orchestral,' and 'Classical orchestral.' Of course there's crossover, but one is more like listening to a BBC concert on public television, the other more like watching a movie.
> 
> I tend to favor cinematic, and I preferred Albion 1 for that.. so tempting to buy it now at barely over $300! Nucleus was great, like an 'Albion Lite' in my mind.
> 
> ...



Albion ONE shorts are pretty tight, in Jonas' piece I also used the legacy strings shorts (that you get with Albion ONE) which are a bit looser, but work great as layering.

Also didn't have to make any timing changes to the midi he gave me


----------



## MaxOctane (Jul 29, 2020)

And now something a bit different: *Albion II Loegria*. No other libs, so pardon the atonal metal hits in place of tubular bells


----------



## Brasart (Jul 29, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> And now something a bit different: *Albion II Loegria*. No other libs, so pardon the atonal metal hits in place of tubular bells




Sounds really fun, that recorder ensemble is


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 29, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> And now something a bit different: *Albion II Loegria*. No other libs, so pardon the atonal metal hits in place of tubular bells




So much fun hearing all these different versions of the little tune I wrote 20 years ago. <3


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 29, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> So much fun hearing all these different versions of the little tune I wrote 20 years ago. <3


Is the MIDI-file top-secret-for-your-eyes-only-if-I-show-it-to-you-I’ll-have-to-kill-you-afterwards, since one has to make a request via pm to get it?

Why not just upload it?

I’d like to experiment with it with EWHO Diamond.


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 29, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> And now something a bit different: *Albion II Loegria*. No other libs, so pardon the atonal metal hits in place of tubular bells




Ha! That's gold. Arrrr. Sure glad I got my copy. A lot to like about this rendition!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 29, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> Is the MIDI-file top-secret-for-your-eyes-only-if-I-show-it-to-you-I’ll-have-to-kill-you-afterwards, since one has to make a request via pm to get it?
> 
> Why not just upload it?
> 
> I’d like to experiment with it with EWHO Diamond.



Haha, certainly not top secret.  I’m just a little embarrassed by it and didn’t really intend for anyone at all to see it. 

I was thinking of cleaning up some of the most embarrassing things before posting it here, but haven’t really had the time.

Sending it to people asking for it in PM’s just felt less embarrassing than posting it publicly here for anyone to see!


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 29, 2020)

After my last music upload, I sat in the corner for a long time. I was embarrassed to say the least. Hey, don't worry. This pursuit takes a thick skin, and that only develops after being smacked around repeatedly.

I will say thanks again to everybody who has made this a highly useful and informative post!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 29, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Haha, certainly not top secret.  I’m just a little embarrassed by it and didn’t really intend for anyone at all to see it.
> 
> I was thinking of cleaning up some of the most embarrassing things before posting it here, but haven’t really had the time.
> 
> Sending it to people asking for it in PM’s just felt less embarrassing than posting it publicly here for anyone to see!


I think it's a nice little piece actually. Nice and cheerful. But I think I understand why you feel a little embarrassed by it now, considering it's 20 years old: I can imagine you're in a completely different place today with respect to your knowledge of MIDI-programming etc. and thus feel you could do a much better job with this now, right? But for something written back in 2000, it really isn't bad, is it?

Anyway, thanks for the MIDI-file and for making this interesting thread (VI Control is such a great forum! Tons of interesting stuff to read)


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 29, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Haha, certainly not top secret.  I’m just a little embarrassed by it and didn’t really intend for anyone at all to see it.
> 
> I was thinking of cleaning up some of the most embarrassing things before posting it here, but haven’t really had the time.
> 
> Sending it to people asking for it in PM’s just felt less embarrassing than posting it publicly here for anyone to see!



I can relate and I'm sure most others here can as well. I was too embarassed to ask for the Midi because I don't want to commit to actually doing anything with it. Way too much pressure! I might not be the only one who feels that way. If you just post it here, who knows what cool variants some others that don't dare to ask you privately might come up with?


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 29, 2020)

It's mostly the fact that had I known so many people would look at and work with it, I would have spent another hour making sure that the shorts velocities were more varied, that the longs had some proper CC automation written, and that the violins didn't play out of range (oops). 

Anyway, here it is. Go nuts!


*Download Here *(Updated)


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 29, 2020)

Game on. This is quickly going to become a meme.


----------



## Jrettetsoh (Jul 29, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> It's mostly the fact that had I known so many people would look at and work with it, I would have spent another hour making sure that the shorts velocities were more varied, that the longs had some proper CC automation written, and that the violins didn't play out of range (oops).
> 
> Anyway, here it is. Go nuts!
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/bx689b7pys6uruu/The Awakening by Jonas Salvador (Logic and MIDI).zip?dl=0


For practical comparison’s sake, can a level be specified for everyone to match? Also, maybe people could upload two versions, one raw from the library, one with their preset and mix modifications? So we can hear where it starts from and what is possible with the library. Thanks!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

Jrettetsoh said:


> For practical comparison’s sake, can a level be specified for everyone to match? Also, maybe people could upload two versions, one raw from the library, one with their preset and mix modifications? So we can hear where it starts from and what is possible with the library. Thanks!



All my original five examples are pretty much raw from the library. The only “mixing” done is volume, reverb, and a limiter on the master bus. No EQ, compression, or other effects are used.


----------



## yiph2 (Jul 30, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> All my original five examples are pretty much raw from the library. The only “mixing” done is volume, reverb, and a limiter on the master bus. No EQ, compression, or other effects are used.


Hi! What instruments did you put for the brass in your BBCSO? I am going to do one for SSO, and there is no ensemble patch for brass


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

yiph2 said:


> Hi! What instruments did you put for the brass in your BBCSO? I am going to do one for SSO, and there is no ensemble patch for brass



Hi! I simply doubled the sequences using Trumpets and Horns!


----------



## yiph2 (Jul 30, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Hi! I simply doubled the sequences using Trumpets and Horns!


Thanks! Here is SSO with BBCSO Discover Percussion! (I don't have a percussion library)


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Jul 30, 2020)

yiph2 said:


> I am going to do one for SSO, and there is no ensemble patch for brass


I did it with SSO and Spitfire Percussion. I didn't use ensemble patches, but just distributed the parts into groups with both strings and brass. For brass instruments, I used Trumpets a2, Horns a2-a6, Tenor Trombones a2 and Contrabass Tuba overlapping Basses part at the end.


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 30, 2020)

As I said before I love this thread, what a great experiment + fun  
An observation:

True, if one looks at this as a compare of whole libraries as full self contained packages - of course taking to account that this midi/composition shows a specific type of tempo and musical style (snappy happy staccaty yadda yadda) - than this thread does a good job.

But after listening to all the versions again, its obvious that its hard finding a single library that "has it all", so to speak, and in high quality.
It seems to me that the most variety is in the percussion, and because this is such a rhythmic piece, a library with good strings/brass/woodwinds that lacks in the perc section (some were barely audible), will sound less appealing then a different library that has good perc (that suit this piece) while not stellar in the rest.

I think that using the same percussion from a single source that matches this piece and sounds the best, while only varying the strings/brass/woodwinds would give a more level field... plus ppl will be able to throw in libs that don't have percs at all.

Thoughts?


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 30, 2020)

VIOLA!
As I wrote this, "yiph2" and "Vladimir" posted both an SSO version... using different percs... and the outcome sound/feel very different in total.
With the same perc track they should have sounded the same (almost, as one used the ensemble and one used dedicated parts).


----------



## DivingInSpace (Jul 30, 2020)

This is pretty cool, some really nice comparisons. I can try it out with Symphobia if you are interested? Might take some time before i get to it, but feel free to PM me the Logic Project.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

DivingInSpace said:


> This is pretty cool, some really nice comparisons. I can try it out with Symphobia if you are interested? Might take some time before i get to it, but feel free to PM me the Logic Project.



It's already posted in the thread! 






5 Starter Libraries Compared


And now something a bit different: Albion II Loegria. No other libs, so pardon the atonal metal hits in place of tubular bells :)




vi-control.net


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> As I said before I love this thread, what a great experiment + fun
> An observation:
> 
> True, if one looks at this as a compare of whole libraries as full self contained packages - of course taking to account that this midi/composition shows a specific type of tempo and musical style (snappy happy staccaty yadda yadda) - than this thread does a good job.
> ...



I've actually been thinking exactly the same!

We could either skip the percussion altogether and only post versions using Strings, Brass, and Woodwinds. Or I could provide the percussion as an audio file, so everyone would use the same?


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 30, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Or I could provide the percussion as an audio file, so everyone would use the same?



That could also help to normalize the volume levels if we can agree not to mess with the volume of the perc and not put a limiter/maximizer on the master. Sounds like a good idea.


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 30, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I've actually been thinking exactly the same!
> 
> We could either skip the percussion altogether and only post versions using Strings, Brass, and Woodwinds. Or I could provide the percussion as an audio file, so everyone would use the same?



I think providing the perc track will work better because it will force members to match the volume of the strings/brass/woodwinds to the perc, thus we'll get mixes that are more or less in the same volume/loudness.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

Cool! I’ll try to provide this later today!


----------



## Scamper (Jul 30, 2020)

I thought something is missing, so here's the Kontakt Factory Library with some light mixing. There would be still much to gain, if you go into the dynamics.


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 30, 2020)

Scamper said:


> I thought something is missing, so here's the Kontakt Factory Library with some light mixing. There would be still much to gain, if you go into the dynamics.




Awesome, thanks a lot! I think the Kontakt Factory library fares quite well in this comparison (which I expected too). Maybe with the fixed perc track we could run an experiment and post them somewhere else as a blind comparison, and have people vote on which version they like the most, like we did with the reverbs a while ago?

Edit: I don't know what it's called as a voting system, but I think there are poll sites like strawpoll etc. where you can set up a poll that lets you not only pick a favorite, but also put items into an order of preference.


----------



## Mornats (Jul 30, 2020)

The Kontakt library version sounded way better than I expected.

I have Spitfire Studio Orchestra core and whilst I have no idea if I'll get a chance to do this, I'll let you know if I do. I'll wait for a perc track first though.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

Scamper said:


> I thought something is missing, so here's the Kontakt Factory Library with some light mixing. There would be still much to gain, if you go into the dynamics.




Thanks for adding this version! And I agree, all libraries here are capable of sounding much better if the velocities, dynamics, and overall midi programming had been made individually for each of them, and not just used as is. So it really isn't a fair comparison. Quite fun though! And I think it still says something about their overall differences in sound. We just have to remember they can all sound a whole lot better than this.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

Mornats said:


> The Kontakt library version sounded way better than I expected.
> 
> I have Spitfire Studio Orchestra core and whilst I have no idea if I'll get a chance to do this, I'll let you know if I do. I'll wait for a perc track first though.



Would love to hear a version with SStO!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

Ok, so if we're gonna do a proper comparison (beyond my initial expectations of this thread) my suggestions would be along these lines:


1. I spend a little more time fixing some of the most obvious quirks with the arrangement and programming.

2. I post the new logic project and midi file here, along with updates of my original five libraries.

3. We stick to the same percussion track (audio) for all libraries. And post all libraries both with and without the percussion.

4. We do no eq, compression or other mixing at all, other than volume levels, dynamics, and velocity tweaking to fit the libraries.


Two questions:

1. How do we handle reverb? Do we use the libraries default sound with any internal reverb kept as is, or do we turn all internal reverbs off?

2. How about master and volume? Any limiting at all? How do we keep the levels similar?


----------



## MartinH. (Jul 30, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> 4. We do no eq, compression or other mixing at all, other than volume levels, dynamics, and velocity tweaking to fit the libraries.



I can see value in both: "vanilla out of the box sound" and, "best it can be" with a ton of plugins and tweaking the mic mixes etc.. For anyone looking for a _starter _library though, I'd imagine the out of the box sound is more interesting. And the result is less reliant on the mixing skills and tastes of different people. Maybe we could do the "best it can be" version another time with differently mixed entries per library to see what is possible to achieve if you put in the work to really tweak the template.





mybadmemory said:


> 2. How about master and volume? Any limiting at all? How do we keep the levels similar?


If you leave enough headroom with the volume of the perc track and everyone tries to match the balance between perc and other sections by ear to your reference example, I think the other tracks should automatically be close enough to each other? They wouldn't be as loud as usual, but I don't see a problem with turning up the volume of my speakers a bit to compare the results.


----------



## Scamper (Jul 30, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> 3. We stick to the same percussion track (audio) for all libraries. And post all libraries both with and without the percussion.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...



Shouldn't the same percussion track not only be used for libraries, that don't have the orchestral percussion included? Otherwise the libraries, that have the percussion can't show that and how it fits with the rest of the orchestra.

I think it should be alright to add a little reverb (internal or external), especially if the samples are very dry and are sort of depending on some reverb for a more proper orchestral sound. The amount of baked reverb between libraries will be very different anyways.

For mastering, you could choose a certain LUFS level for the track, that everybody can adjust to. There should be some free plugins for limiting and checking levels, if some people don't have them.


Of course, it's your thing, so just some of my thoughts.


----------



## MrYamamoto (Jul 30, 2020)

Taking a shot with steinbergs iconica


----------



## Bman70 (Jul 30, 2020)

Regarding reverb, there are definitely different flavors. Maybe pick one that everyone can use.. a free one? 

I could drop all the dry files in a Kontakt instrument, with a menu to pick the orchestra version, and a knob to adjust the built-in reverb.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 30, 2020)

Guys, this is one hell of a thread! Thanks OP & everybody!


----------



## Rtomproductions (Jul 30, 2020)

Eh, I hate to be "that guy," but I'd take these comparisons with a grain of salt. Different libraries respond differently to velocity and other control codes. If I program strings with Hollywood Strings, take the MIDI data, and throw it into some CSS tracks, the CSS strings will sound awful; they simply don't respond the same.

To be clear, I think you can definitely get *something* out of these comparisons, but for it to really be maximally useful, you'd need to at least program the velocities and CC's differently (and optimally) for each library. In addition, you'd probably also want to perhaps take the wettest library in the comparison and apply reverbs to the others so that they match that one.

Again, I certainly don't think the comparisons are useless, but I'd caution the inexperienced against using them as a surefire metric to determine the quality of a library.


----------



## Scamper (Jul 30, 2020)

Rtomproductions said:


> Again, I certainly don't think the comparisons are useless, but I'd caution the inexperienced against using them as a surefire metric to determine the quality of a library.



True, also the track is just showcasing a small part of musical variety. So in order to show the limits, strengths and weaknesses of each library, you'd need to have one or multiple tracks including all dynamics, playing techniques and multiple styles. For example, while the Kontakt Factory Library sounds alright here, I don't think it can hold a candle to most other libraries, when the track demands more flexibility.

If you really want to do it right, it will probably get pretty complex and beyond the scope of a fun little thread and comparison like this. So for a general rough impression of how the libraries sound, it's nice to have.


----------



## Mornats (Jul 30, 2020)

I was hoping to use Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion in this but for some reason that library crashes Kontakt at the moment. But anyway, here's *Spitfire Studio Orchestra Core*.

I split the strings octaves between violins 1 and 2. I tweaked the percussion levels to hopefully match the rest of the tracks but if you think they're off I'll redo them.

The brass is just the horns a4 (let me know if you want more brass in there).

The only processing I used was to run it through Ozone 8 Advanced's maximiser at the default settings and boosted to -16 LUFS.

Edit: sorry, left some reverb on... will update shortly.
Here it is again. If you heard the first one, everything was going through a Valhalla Room Smooth Hall reverb. I've taken that off now.


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 30, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Shouldn't the same percussion track not only be used for libraries, that don't have the orchestral percussion included? Otherwise the libraries, that have the percussion can't show that and how it fits with the rest of the orchestra.



Percs showed the most variety between libs, some libs with good strings/brass/woodwinds didn't shine well simply cause their percs were so so...
Lets be honest, no one will buy a $400-$500 lib with meh strings meh brass and meh woods... but with great percs
Also, using the same perc track will automatically force everyone to mix in the same level.

p.s. loved the kontakt factory lib  
I have to admit... I didn't even install it... but this thread and your track convinced me to install it!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 30, 2020)

Rtomproductions said:


> Eh, I hate to be "that guy," but I'd take these comparisons with a grain of salt. Different libraries respond differently to velocity and other control codes. If I program strings with Hollywood Strings, take the MIDI data, and throw it into some CSS tracks, the CSS strings will sound awful; they simply don't respond the same.
> 
> To be clear, I think you can definitely get *something* out of these comparisons, but for it to really be maximally useful, you'd need to at least program the velocities and CC's differently (and optimally) for each library. In addition, you'd probably also want to perhaps take the wettest library in the comparison and apply reverbs to the others so that they match that one.
> 
> Again, I certainly don't think the comparisons are useless, but I'd caution the inexperienced against using them as a surefire metric to determine the quality of a library.



I fully agree, and have said the same multiple times in the thread! For my original five versions I did tweak the velocities and levels, to the best of my ability, for each of the libraries to work. They certainly didn't sound good with just moving the midi, and they could certainly sound much better than they do too, if someone more knowledgable than myself had done it! I'm just a hobbyist having some fun with it all. 

I hope everyone here know that all of these libraries can sound absolutely amazing or like complete crap, depending on the composition, arrangement, programming, and how well it was made for that particular library. I really wouldn't want anyone to judge them based on this little tune of mine. With this in mind though, I still think it says something about their general difference in sound that could be interesting to people.


----------



## Kent (Jul 30, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I was hoping to use Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion in this but for some reason that library crashes Kontakt at the moment. But anyway, here's *Spitfire Studio Orchestra Core*.
> 
> I split the strings octaves between violins 1 and 2. I tweaked the percussion levels to hopefully match the rest of the tracks but if you think they're off I'll redo them.
> 
> ...



Wow, it's crazy how much the timing seems affected in this one.


----------



## José Herring (Jul 30, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Thank you @EgM for the Vienna and Hollywood versions! I really like the Vienna version, and I'm a little surprised by how much smaller the Hollywood version sounded (not in a bad way) from what I was anticipating. If you send me the share links in a PM I'll add your versions to the first post as well!


HO has a smaller room and also some of the legato patches sound significantly smaller than the sustain patches. And, some of the really short shorts sound almost chamber sized. 

I'm starting to fall in love with the VSL Synchron stuff though. I see a future with HO, VSL synchron and OT stuff (though OT will be patch by patch because the prices verge on the ridiculous for me anyway). Still trying to figure out how to work Spitfire into my future setup.


philtsai said:


> I used Red Room Palette Melodics and Colors (freebie) and also, Alpine Project Viola which is freebie too cause Palette melodics dosen't have viola spicatto. I also used Studio one stock Reverb, Neutron 3 EQ and a limiter.
> 
> 
> All the percussions are from The Free Orchestra by ProjectSAM except tubular bells and timpani which come from BBCSO Discover. They are all freebies too.



Man it's amazing that the amount of good freestuff is better than the libraries I paid thousands for when I started. This version isn't bad at all. Way better than I expected these basic libraries to sound.


----------



## Cheezus (Jul 30, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I was hoping to use Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion in this but for some reason that library crashes Kontakt at the moment. But anyway, here's *Spitfire Studio Orchestra Core*.
> 
> I split the strings octaves between violins 1 and 2. I tweaked the percussion levels to hopefully match the rest of the tracks but if you think they're off I'll redo them.
> 
> ...




Thank you for mentioning the Rhapsody issues...I e-mailed them a few days ago about it and they responded asking what version of Kontakt I'm using, but haven't heard anything since. It's mainly crashing when you try to load the bass drum, toms etc right?


----------



## Manuel Stumpf (Jul 30, 2020)

For sure the outcome is to be taken with a grain of salt:

people have different abilities and skill levels in midi editing and mixing
it was most likely written/mocked up with one library in mind (obviously this one will have an advantage)
mixing, amount of reverb, total volume
The composition only scatches the amount of instruments and capabilities the libraries have. In an optimum world one would want to compare with different compositions of different styles.
Yet: it is still very interesting. All alone how different all the versions are.
Important is: it was not the task to make them all sound equal or mimic the sound of a library with another.
This lets us still hear the different flavours of the libraries, despite all uncertainties mentioned.

And? It is big fun to just try it out on a library you have at your hands.
I did not expect to see (ähm hear ) so many different versions 

(Century Series Essentials version still in the making, will probably come during the weekend )


----------



## Mornats (Jul 30, 2020)

kmaster said:


> Wow, it's crazy how much the timing seems affected in this one.


I will double check everything's lined up right (I'm pretty sure it is) but I've heard criticism of the timing in the shorts for this library so it could be that.


----------



## Mornats (Jul 30, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> Thank you for mentioning the Rhapsody issues...I e-mailed them a few days ago about it and they responded asking what version of Kontakt I'm using, but haven't heard anything since. It's mainly crashing when you try to load the bass drum, toms etc right?


Bass drum, snare drum and all ensemble patches I tried. Kontakt 6.whatever the latest is.


----------



## Cheezus (Jul 30, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Bass drum, snare drum and all ensemble patches I tried. Kontakt 6.whatever the latest is.


Yep same. If I get a fix from them I'll let you know. Might be worth starting your own support ticket as well.


----------



## Jazzaria (Jul 30, 2020)

My contribution, Miroslav Philharmonik 2 (percussion all from Miro 1, as updated percussion is a separate addon for 2). Didn't touch (or even really look at) the MIDI, and barely fiddled with patches, just chose what seemed closest (went back and forth on brass until settling on french horns + trombones), and did pick "hall" presets for percussion so I assume there's some reverb on those tracks (other tracks would probably benefit from me figuring it out and matching).

Passed through IK's Lurssen Mastering Console w/Classical preset, since that seemed appropriate, adjusted volume faders only on master bus to target -16 LUFS, and that's it.


----------



## GGaca (Jul 30, 2020)

Hello, I'm beginner so i'm sorry if that's not mixed well.
I used Your midi files to compare libs i own with libs used in this thread just to satisfy my curiosity but i can aswell share result.

I used SONiVOX orchestral companion: woodwinds, strings and brass; 
I also used free Virtual Playing Orchestra 3 for Timpani and Snare and SONiVOX BigBang Cinematic Percussion 2.5 for Cymbals and Tubular bells.


----------



## ptram (Jul 30, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> p.s. loved the kontakt factory lib
> I have to admit... I didn't even install it... but this thread and your track convinced me to install it!


If it may add information, I did a little comparison some time ago:

VSL full vs. Kontakt Factory Library

Paolo


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 31, 2020)

ptram said:


> If it may add information, I did a little comparison some time ago:
> 
> VSL full vs. Kontakt Factory Library
> 
> Paolo



Hey Paolo,

I didn't have a chance to test the factory sounds my self yet, but listening to your comparison its obvious the factory set falls apart when it needs to supply more depth and character... I guess it simply doesn't have it. I think today you can find bits and pieces of freebies that will fare better in that mockup.

I think here, in this thread, the kontakt factory lib did surprisingly OK'ish cause the nature of the piece is very snappy, there is more emphasis on shorter notes, thus the legacy vsl subset could pull it off by just showing it roots (vsl) signature sound... without much depth/movements.


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 31, 2020)

To keep this thread/project manageable and not too complex, here are my thoughts:

Limiting:
I think we should agree to avoid this, we should just match to the audio perc track and it will be "good enough".
LUFS? at least half of the members here are armatures, have mercy
With that said, if your lib gives a really spikie outcome, some light compression on the "strings/brass/woodwinds" track should be ok.
[write in your description what you did]

Midi tweaking:
I think its ok to tweak the track (like velocity and dynamics) so it will work better with your given library.

Reverb:
Sure, if the lib you showcase is bone dry, I don't see anything wrong with adding reverb.
[write in your description what you did]

Vanilla or mixed:
The more the merrier... do both if you want 
When the perc track will be posted, I'll add a CSS version.
I'll do both vanilla ensemble and a multi version I've built from single CSS instruments (that one has some light eq built in here and there)


Remember all, this is not a scientific comparison, its just for fun PLUS added value, sure, narrow value, but still value  


Thoughts?


----------



## Bman70 (Jul 31, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> To keep this thread/project manageable and not too complex, here are my thoughts:
> 
> Limiting:
> I think we should agree to avoid this, we should just match to the audio perc track and it will be "good enough".
> ...



LUFS is easy enough, I think (free) Youlean Loudness meter will show you the LUFS level. Ozone does too.


----------



## mybadmemory (Jul 31, 2020)

Thanks for all thoughts and contributions! I’m currently doing some light polish on the track to fix some obvious mistakes. Once done I’ll post the new project file, midi, and percussion audio, along with updates the five original libraries.

I’ll also try to include some light rules/recommendations for contributions (regarding do’s and dont’s) to keep this as organized as possible. Anyone wanting to contribute might want to wait until I have the files updated. Cheers!


----------



## Mornats (Jul 31, 2020)

Cool, I'll redo mine once you've posted the new stuff.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Jul 31, 2020)

I think by using a single percussion track as a reference we are crossing out the range of the orchestral percussion demonstration, thereby paying attention only to strings, woodwinds and brass. And so that there is no confusion, so I propose to create a new topic. And this topic will remain a legend. How do you look at it friends, thoughts?


----------



## Ran Zhou (Aug 2, 2020)

Here's my version with selected libraries for each section:

Strings: HZstrings (C+T) +boosted with in stock limiter/compressor
Woodwinds: Berlin WW revive (C+T+O) +boosted with in stock limiter/compressor
Brass: 8dio Majestica (Mixed mic)
Bass Drum, Timpani, Snare: HW Diamond (C+M+Main)
Tabular bell: Kontakt Factory VSL-Percussion

No manipulation on the MIDI except to move the notes of tabular bell to make it in the range of the instrument. I only had basic adjustment on the volume, and light mix. As a test on my selection libraries, maybe a little go beyond the original idea of the post. But it's just so much fun to see how it works with combination of different libraries. Thanks OP for providing the MIDI file. Don't hesitate to let me know things are definitely wrong there. Happy to learn about anything related with orchestration!


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 3, 2020)

Ran, it sounds very nice but around the 16-22 seconds it seems that something is wrong with the parts level balance.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Aug 3, 2020)

Ran Zhou said:


> No manipulation on the MIDI


But why not? Why do you ignore such an important thing as manipulation and editing of MIDI for specific libraries when taking part? And I appeal to all the other members who don't. In your opinion, would it not improve the result?


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 3, 2020)

I would suggest anyone wanting to contribute to hold off for a little while, until I've gotten the time to update the source files, and provide some more instructions / recommendations, to keep this thing a little more organised. Thanks again for all interest, and I'll post an update here as soon as get some time! <3


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 10, 2020)

Hi all! Sorry for taking longer than expected, but here goes:


I’ve did some small tweaks to the arrangement of the track. Most noticeably transposed it up 3 semitones so that all sections play within their proper range (oops), but I also thought that would make it easier to differentiate between the “old” and “new” versions of any submitted tracks in this thread.

I’ve also used the same percussion track for all versions (now provided as audio), since I agree on that the huge difference in percussion sound was distracting when trying to hear the sonic differences of the main string, wind, and brass sections of each library. I’ve kept it half wet to fit good enough with both drier and wetter libraries.

Lastly I’ve removed all external reverb in favour for the built-in ones, as well as all limiting on the master bus. For the sake of the comparison I think it’s more interesting to hear the libraries as presented by the developers, without any external factors adjusting their sound. 

I’ve updated all the original five tracks below to these new versions.


*CINESYMPHONY LITE*




*BERLIN INSPIRE*




*NUCLEUS*




*BBCSO CORE*




*SPITFIRE ORIGINALS*




I have to say I’ve slightly adjusted my impressions of these five libraries after remaking the tracks a second time. I still like CineSymphony best both in terms of sound and workflow. Inspire sounds a little harsh and narrow after having listened to it some more, though it’s still great to work with. Nucleus is also still great, though perhaps not as punchy in the higher key this time around. And lastly I actually like the two Spitfire libraries better this time, after having learned to work around their quirks. Originals doesn’t sound as mushy with the percussion from CineSymphony, and BBCSO is easier to work with once you realised that the shorts are in fact tight, provided you stick to the same velocity layer. Overall I still prefer the workflow and speed of the three Kontakt libraries, but in terms of sound and end result I think all five holds up more evenly this time around! Which proves that you have to learn your libraries I guess, but also that some of them require more learning and fiddling to get right. 


For anyone wanting to add (or re-add) a library, let’s stick to the following recommendations for the sake of consistency and easy comparisons:

Use the same percussion track (provided as audio) for all libraries, to put the focus on the main strings / winds / brass sections.
Do tweak MIDI velocities to fit the response of the respective library.
Do balance volumes to make the sections (strings, brass, woodwinds) match the original track.
Do balance the volumes of the layered longs / shorts, to make them glue together and appear as the same sample.
Don’t add any EQ’s, compressors, or effects.
Don’t add any external reverbs. Use the build-in reverb when available.
Don’t add any limiting on the master bus, but do try to match the overall volume to the original track.

Here is the zip file with the new Logic, Midi, and Audio Percussion track: *Download Here*


Once again, thank you everyone for contributing! Feel free to update libraries already submitted, or add any that’s still not covered!


----------



## reutunes (Aug 10, 2020)

This is such a worthwhile experiment - thank you to everybody who got involved and especially to @mybadmemory for persevering with the tweaking. My hat is well and truly off.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 10, 2020)

Now bring on the updates, and the ones still missing! Kontakt Factory Library and NI Symphony Series comes to mind!


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 10, 2020)

Red Room is another. Also quite curious about Miroslav Philharmonik 2, or the CE edition of that one!


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 10, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Red Room is another. Also quite curious about Miroslav Philharmonik 2, or the CE edition of that one!



Would love to hear Miroslav as well! His old Akai libraries were my first venture into sampled orchestras back in the early 2000s. I’m still quite fond of the sound of those (and the orchestral expansion cards for the JV-1080)!


----------



## Cheezus (Aug 10, 2020)

Redid the BHCT version real quick:


----------



## Timothy Schmidt (Aug 10, 2020)

Hi everyone,

I wish this thread was around when I really got into VI's a few months ago! Aforementioned limitations notwithstanding, it's undoubtedly an invaluable resource to VI newcomers for gauging the tone and general balance of each library.

Now that @mybadmemory has updated everything, I've put together a NotePerformer version in Dorico 3 for the notation-loving composers out there. Here's how I addressed each of the guidelines:

_1. Use the same percussion track (provided as audio) for all libraries, to put the focus on the main strings / winds / brass sections._
-> Added percussion file to Dorico using UVI Workstation and boosted 6dB to match original track.

_2. Do tweak MIDI velocities to fit the response of the respective library._
-> Left alone as NotePerformer isn’t designed to work around velocity anyway.

_3. Do balance volumes to make the sections (strings, brass, woodwinds) match the original track._
-> Bumped strings volume from 100 to 105 and brass from 100 to 110 in the NotePerformer interface.

_4. Do balance the volumes of the layered longs / shorts tracks, to make them glue together and appear as the same sample._
-> Done automatically by NotePerformer’s balancing algorithm.

_5. Don’t add any EQ’s, compressors, or effects._
-> Disabled Dorico’s default reverb and compressor plugins.

_6. Don’t add any external reverbs. Use the build-in reverb when available._
-> Left NotePerformer reverb at default initialization settings.

_7. Don’t add any limiting on the master bus, but do try to match the overall volume to the original track._
-> Raised master volume fader to match original track, as well as counter Dorico’s automatic playback volume reduction.

Besides doing my best to adhere to these guidelines, I also manually replaced the instrument of each track and refreshed Dorico's playback template for NotePerformer to correctly assign the proper instruments. All that said and done, these tweaks took me less than half an hour.

The result is, in my opinion, satisfactory enough to contend with the sample libraries! I was surprised that NotePerformer did so well with just MIDI data thrown at it, as I expected it to require me to write up accurate sheet music to sound any good. If there's interest, I could do that too and see if sounds even better - just let me know!

- Timothy Schmidt


----------



## Jordan D Smith (Aug 10, 2020)

This. This is how comparison demos should be. I’d love to see more threads like this with different styles of music/orchestration.

Listening through all the different libraries play the same tune reminds me why I have different types of guitars. Each one has its own voice and a different set of uses. Because of this thread, I now have a reference for when I need an orchestration to sound more “focused“ or more “epic”.


----------



## Mornats (Aug 11, 2020)

I'll try and get the Spitfire Studio Orchestra version redone although if anyone else was thinking of doing it too, go ahead in case I don't get to this for a while.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 11, 2020)

Updated the OP with the new versions, slightly altered my opinions on the libraries, and added the latest download link for the project files!


----------



## yiph2 (Aug 11, 2020)

Here is the updated SSO:


----------



## Scamper (Aug 11, 2020)

The adjusted Kontakt Factory Library.


----------



## MrYamamoto (Aug 11, 2020)

And Iconica is here


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 12, 2020)

MrYamamoto said:


> And Iconica is here




Sounds nice! But it seems the violin longs are missing in the second half?


----------



## ptram (Aug 12, 2020)

This is VSL Big Bang Orchestra (Andromeda, Jupiter, Lyra, Musca, Orion). Sustain and staccato articulations only.




Paolo


----------



## Crowe (Aug 12, 2020)

I'm working on a Palette version!

I also have no idea what I'm doing \m/


----------



## Crowe (Aug 12, 2020)

Palette Version!

This is actually my first time doing an orchestral track, I had just finished setting up my Palette template this morning. So it's probably crap and if it is, tell me so I don't insult this wonderful library more than I've already done. On the other hand if it's decent it's probably because Palette is awesome. :D

I used some Melodics patches (Violins in Octaves and Oboes & Bassoons in octaves which in hindsight was against the rules and also maybe not the best idea I've ever had). I found the Violins worked fine, the other one maybe a little less so.

I've used a 10% mix of the built-in reverb (Concert Hall), on Decca Mic. Might be a bit too much.



MP3 on Soundcloud, I tried to upload the wav here but apparently I'm not allowed?

SIDENOTE:
Apparently the flutes in the Woodwinds ensemble patch did not go high enough (I was short about 3 notes) so I had to transpose them an octave down.

Also MP3 download in case that's useful to anyone.
New version


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 12, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Palette Version!
> 
> This is actually my first time doing an orchestral track, I had just finished setting up my Palette template this morning. So it's probably crap and if it is, tell me so I don't insult this wonderful library more than I've already done. On the other hand if it's decent it's probably because Palette is awesome. :D
> 
> ...




Great first attempt! What I would suggest is perhaps a little less reverb to make it all more defined. Atm it all blurs together a little much. Secondly i'd see if Palette has some even shorter shorts (like spicatto instead of staccato for example) to get some more bite in. Thirdly i would double check and see if the percussion audio track is accidentally played back in mono, since it sounds very centered.


----------



## Crowe (Aug 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Great first attempt! What I would suggest is perhaps a little less reverb to make it all more defined. Atm it all blurs together a little much. Secondly i'd see if Palette has some even shorter shorts (like spicatto instead of staccato for example) to get some more bite in. Thirdly i would double check and see if the percussion audio track is accidentally played back in mono, since it sounds very centered.



Thanks for the advice, I'll be giving it another pass later today. I'll reupload after .

Edit: Updated the original post with new mix. Thanks for the advice, it already sounds noticably better.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 12, 2020)

Another first attempt at this kind of thing, and working with a blocked right-ear (infection). Still, I thought this would be a great opportunity to have a try.

This version uses the orchestral instruments that come with Logic Pro X (Sampler/EXS24)

Any constructive criticism/pointers most welcome


----------



## ptram (Aug 12, 2020)

This is Synchronized SE Vol.1 (only sustain and staccato articulations). I know there is another version earlier in this thread, but the different editing makes them sound a bit different.

What I had to do was to edit the ff dynamics, smoothing them a bit to adapt to the piece. Then, I only did some balancing between the instruments.




Paolo


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Hi all! Sorry for taking longer than expected, but here goes:
> 
> 
> I’ve did some small tweaks to the arrangement of the track. Most noticeably transposed it up 3 semitones so that all sections play within their proper range (oops), but I also thought that would make it easier to differentiate between the “old” and “new” versions of any submitted tracks in this thread.
> ...



Why don't I see the links. I am curious especially about the Originals. I mean I see the names of the developers but I don't see the player may be?


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Would love to hear Miroslav as well! His old Akai libraries were my first venture into sampled orchestras back in the early 2000s. I’m still quite fond of the sound of those (and the orchestral expansion cards for the JV-1080)!


I actually thought about buying Miroslav CE version & thanks to the forum I heard about it read that it actually came with the old Akai. I totally backed out.


----------



## pbattersby (Aug 12, 2020)

I'll take a chance and post a version from a FREE library. Here is Virtual Playing Orchestra performing "Awakening by Jonas Salvador". I broke a rule by adding the reverb built into my DAW because my library is intended to be used with added reverb (it's listed as a requirement along with suspension of disbelief). Hopefully this version doesn't suffer too much by comparisons to paid libraries.


----------



## Crowe (Aug 12, 2020)

pbattersby said:


> I'll take a chance and post a version from a FREE library. Here is Virtual Playing Orchestra performing "Awakening by Jonas Salvador". I broke a rule by adding the reverb built into my DAW because my library is intended to be used with added reverb (it's listed as a requirement along with suspension of disbelief). Hopefully this version doesn't suffer too much by comparisons to paid libraries.




Wow. That's not bad at all. Nicely done!


----------



## Piotrek K. (Aug 12, 2020)

A bit off topic. This tune is so addictively awesome that every version just brings me a smile. It has this retro video game vibe to it. And becasue of that I just can't decide which I like more, because it sounds retro awesome with free VST and it sounds plain awesome with better libraries.


----------



## dzilizzi (Aug 12, 2020)

pbattersby said:


> I'll take a chance and post a version from a FREE library. Here is Virtual Playing Orchestra performing "Awakening by Jonas Salvador". I broke a rule by adding the reverb built into my DAW because my library is intended to be used with added reverb (it's listed as a requirement along with suspension of disbelief). Hopefully this version doesn't suffer too much by comparisons to paid libraries.



For free, that sounded pretty good. 

I'm really liking all these comparisons. It is very useful in picking a starting orchestra. Thanks for everyone who has participated.


----------



## Crowe (Aug 12, 2020)

This thread is making me exceedingly happy.


----------



## Ruffian Price (Aug 12, 2020)

Here's Metropolis Ark 4. I balanced the result to taste and cut out some lows from the mixdown; the faster string passages are also using the blurred staccato, with regular staccatissimos on the beat. Default mics with no reverb.


----------



## Mornats (Aug 12, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> A bit off topic. This tune is so addictively awesome that every version just brings me a smile. It has this retro video game vibe to it. And becasue of that I just can't decide which I like more, because it sounds retro awesome with free VST and it sounds plain awesome with better libraries.



We so need a Super Audio Kart version.


----------



## Crowe (Aug 12, 2020)

Mornats said:


> We so need a Super Audio Kart version.



_Solid State Symphony_


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 12, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Why don't I see the links. I am curious especially about the Originals. I mean I see the names of the developers but I don't see the player may be?



That's strange! They are all there to me! Anyone else that's not seeing them?


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 12, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> A bit off topic. This tune is so addictively awesome that every version just brings me a smile. It has this retro video game vibe to it. And becasue of that I just can't decide which I like more, because it sounds retro awesome with free VST and it sounds plain awesome with better libraries.



Haha, thanks! <3 I grew up with the early SquareSoft SNES RPG's and learned to play the piano by pestering my teacher with sheet music converted from midi files I downloaded from vgmusic.com on a dial-up Macintosh LC2 in the mid nineties. I guess that shows.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 12, 2020)

Can't believe how many versions we have here now! Seriously getting tired of hearing my tune over and over again. :D

I'll update the OP with all submitted versions tomorrow! Thanks a bunch guys!


----------



## Mornats (Aug 12, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> _Solid State Symphony_


Ooh I have that... Hmmm.

Also, I wonder what Orchestral Swarm would sound like. Might try that too when I get the chance.


----------



## Crowe (Aug 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Can't believe how many versions we have here now! Seriously getting tired of hearing my tune over and over again. :D
> 
> I'll update the OP with all submitted versions tomorrow! Thanks a bunch guys!



Brah, if this keeps up long enough we'll have to turn you into the VIC mascot.


----------



## pbattersby (Aug 12, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Wow. That's not bad at all. Nicely done!





dzilizzi said:


> For free, that sounded pretty good.


Thanks! I think it's fair to say that with the quality of sample libraries available today, it's the composition that matters the most if even a free library is getting acceptable results with Jonas's composition.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 12, 2020)

Is there an easy way to extend the playable range of an instrument in Kontakt i.e for a library that doesn't go high enough for the flute?

Cheers!


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 12, 2020)

Here is CSS (strings) + Bravura (Brass) + Kontakt Factory (flute) + Alpine Bassoon (free bassoon)
Yea I've learned that I'm short on woods lol
I have Epic Brass/Woodwinds and Rhapsody Orchestral Colors... but I didn't feel they matched this tune.

In CSS there are three separate mics (close, tree, room) and a "mix" of all mics.
CSS is very warm, very romantic, so I tried to get a bit more zing from it without using eq by mixing my own "mix" for each instrument. in general I favored the close mic a bit more then the room.

Also, CSS is not super duper agile, as I said its very warm and romantic on the edge of symphonic, so it has very generous release samples... which in this jumpy tune is a small problem. I know most ppl wouldn't even notice this but I do, so I worked a bit with volume envelopes automation to fix some tails here and there.

Btw, this is the first time I tried "balancing" (can't call this mixing really without eq/compression) an orchestral piece. I've done a ton of rock/metal/fusion/blues... but never orchestral  
Well I did compose and mix a track for the Westworld competition, but didn't finish it in time (had an operation scheduled earlier than planed).

Cheers!


----------



## José Herring (Aug 12, 2020)

Since my template is down after building a new computer, I decided to visit my first love. So here's a version with the old, old, old, EWQLSO XP still on Kontakt. Was a PIA to work with but part of me still believes in Nick and Doug's original vision. I wish they would just go back to the original recordings and bring the library up from scratch even with no legato, I still believe. So many articulations in one package.

Edit: I had to guess at the tempo. So it may be a little faster. Not sure.
Edit 2: I could have tweaked it for hours more and really made it tops but not willing to put in the time. Did it just for fun and memories.


----------



## pbattersby (Aug 12, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Edit: I had to guess at the tempo. So it may be a little faster. Not sure.



The tempo is 130bpm. It's embedded in the MIDI file. Maybe there's a way for your DAW to read that and set the tempo when importing the file? (I use Reaper and it set the tempo for me)


----------



## Alfeus Aditya (Aug 12, 2020)

Hi, this is East West Hollywood Orchestra version. No External FX, no plugin, no limiter or EQ.
I left it dry..
I only tweak the velocity quickly because HWO have a very large dynamic, then I have to watch out for it.
On several previous pages someone has done it with the HWO version, and this is my version




This is out of comparison and against the rules, this is my version with reverb (external plugin) :


----------



## José Herring (Aug 12, 2020)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> Hi, this is East West Hollywood Orchestra version. No External FX, no plugin, no limiter or EQ.
> I left it dry..
> I only tweak the velocity quickly because HWO have a very large dynamic, then I have to watch out for it.
> On several previous pages someone has done it with the HWO version, and this is my version
> ...



All versions of EW holding their own against many a newer libraries.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 12, 2020)

pbattersby said:


> The tempo is 130bpm. It's embedded in the MIDI file. Maybe there's a way for your DAW to read that and set the tempo when importing the file? (I use Reaper and it set the tempo for me)


129.8


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2020)

I can't believe we're up to 32 added versions, besides my original five. OP updated with all of them! <3


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I can't believe we're up to 32 added versions, besides my original five. OP updated with all of them! <3


This will soon become a thread worthy of “sticky status”. Moderators?


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2020)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> Hi, this is East West Hollywood Orchestra version. No External FX, no plugin, no limiter or EQ.
> I left it dry..
> I only tweak the velocity quickly because HWO have a very large dynamic, then I have to watch out for it.
> On several previous pages someone has done it with the HWO version, and this is my version
> ...




This is probably my favourite of all of the added ones! (Might be because the dynamics and timing are quite close to my original versions, in the sense that this is how I intended the piece to be "played".)


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2020)

Mornats said:


> We so need a Super Audio Kart version.



Haha. This got me excited. I'll look into making an SNES/SFC version somehow!


----------



## Mornats (Aug 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Haha. This got me excited. I'll look into making an SNES/SFC version somehow!


I have this https://impactsoundworks.com/product/super-audio-boy/ but I've not really used it yet. Might be worth a quick shot anyhow!


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I have this https://impactsoundworks.com/product/super-audio-boy/ but I've not really used it yet. Might be worth a quick shot anyhow!



I'll try making something with SNES soundfonts extracted from old ROM's, when I get the time!


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 13, 2020)

Ruffian Price said:


> Here's Metropolis Ark 4. I balanced the result to taste and cut out some lows from the mixdown; the faster string passages are also using the blurred staccato, with regular staccatissimos on the beat. Default mics with no reverb.



This is AFTER cutting lows?


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I'll try making something with SNES soundfonts extracted from old ROM's, when I get the time!



Soundfonts hehehe
Who here had a Soundblaster AWE32?


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 13, 2020)

pbattersby said:


> I'll take a chance and post a version from a FREE library. Here is Virtual Playing Orchestra performing "Awakening by Jonas Salvador". I broke a rule by adding the reverb built into my DAW because my library is intended to be used with added reverb (it's listed as a requirement along with suspension of disbelief). Hopefully this version doesn't suffer too much by comparisons to paid libraries.




I checked their website I knew they have the sound font version (Or that's not true may be am confused?) I didn't find a Kontakt or a Plugin version may be am confused with the website's navigation. Or they don't actually have the Kontakt or Vst, AU version?


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 13, 2020)

btw that did not sound like a free library @pbattersby


----------



## Rory (Aug 13, 2020)

If anyone has StaffPad, it would be interesting to hear a StaffPad version made with the app’s third-party libraries.


----------



## Rory (Aug 13, 2020)

Rory said:


> If anyone has StaffPad, it would be interesting to hear a StaffPad version made with the app’s third-party libraries.



I’ve now posted this idea to the StaffPad sub-forum: https://vi-control.net/community/th...-“5-starter-libraries-compared”-thread.97138/


----------



## pbattersby (Aug 13, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> I checked their website I knew they have the sound font version (Or that's not true may be am confused?) I didn't find a Kontakt or a Plugin version may be am confused with the website's navigation. Or they don't actually have the Kontakt or Vst, AU version?



My understanding is that a sound font is in .sf2 format. This library is in .sfz format. No there is no Kontakt or plugin version. You would add Sforzando to your track, and load a sample file (.sfz file from my library) into Sforzando.

Also, there is no "they". It's just me (see the "about" page on my web site).


----------



## pbattersby (Aug 13, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> btw that did not sound like a free library @pbattersby


Well that's a fine compliment. Thank you!


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

Ok, so...Gone a little off-piste with this. Couldn't sleep, nor could i get this theme out of my head. So decided to try a little experiment (A proof-of-concept, if you will). I originally had no real intention of sharing it, and so ditched the rules in favour of trying to bend the specific library to my will. A lot of nudging of MIDI and, in some instances, huge swathes of eq cuts and boosts. Oh...and that tempo change 

I understand if it's too far away from the original remit of the thread; and certainly, if mybadmemory takes an exception to my manipulation of his music, then I'll happily delete the file from here and from my SoundCloud page.

Until then, I wonder if anybody can guess the libraries used (Two libraries were used in the making. Two entire sections from one library, and the third section from another):


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 13, 2020)

pbattersby said:


> My understanding is that a sound font is in .sf2 format. This library is in .sfz format. No there is no Kontakt or plugin version. You would add Sforzando to your track, and load a sample file (.sfz file from my library) into Sforzando.
> 
> Also, there is no "they". It's just me (see the "about" page on my web site).


Wow! I didn’t know. Sorry about that but great Job with the library. Yea I saw the sfz download thanks for that.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Ok, so...Gone a little off-piste with this. Couldn't sleep, nor could i get this theme out of my head. So decided to try a little experiment (A proof-of-concept, if you will). I originally had no real intention of sharing it, and so ditched the rules in favour of trying to bend the specific library to my will. A lot of nudging of MIDI and, in some instances, huge swathes of eq cuts and boosts. Oh...and that tempo change
> 
> I understand if it's too far away from the original remit of the thread; and certainly, if mybadmemory takes an exception to my manipulation of his music, then I'll happily delete the file from here and from my SoundCloud page.
> 
> Until then, I wonder if anybody can guess the libraries used (Two libraries were used in the making. Two entire sections from one library, and the third section from another):




That sounds awesome! :D I Have no idea about which libraries are used thought!

After hearing all the different versions I've actually thought many times that I did put the tempo a little high and would have liked it better slower (though perhaps not this slow).

It sounds as if the violin longs in the second half are missing, or are mixed very low (compared to the shorts). Could there be a problem with the midi i provided since i've heard this on a few versions now?


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> That sounds awesome! :D I Have no idea about which libraries are used thought!
> 
> After hearing all the different versions I've actually thought many times that I did put the tempo a little high and would have liked it better slower (though perhaps not this slow).
> 
> It sounds as if the violin longs in the second half are missing, or are mixed very low (compared to the shorts). Could there be a problem with the midi i provided since i've heard this on a few versions now?




Seems I'd knocked the volumes of the Violins down too low, within Kontakt. Will edit the post with an updated version.

With regard to the tempo change: It really was not an initial goal; rather, a way to play to the foibles of this particular library. In the end I think it works quite well as an alternative (Though perhaps because I've now heard it like this, too many times). It actually started out even slower, but it didn't feel as robust.

I'll keep the libraries secret, for a little while longer 

Re-up:


----------



## José Herring (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Seems I'd knocked the volumes of the Violins down too low, within Kontakt. Will edit the post with an updated version.
> 
> With regard to the tempo change: It really was not an initial goal; rather, a way to play to the foibles of this particular library. In the end I think it works quite well as an alternative (Though perhaps because I've now heard it like this, too many times). It actually started out even slower, but it didn't feel as robust.
> 
> ...



Really wet but I like the sound of the samples.


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 13, 2020)

Omnisphere


----------



## Markrs (Aug 13, 2020)

Okay here is my totally out of the box version from a $15 Orchestral Library: Sonivox Orchestral Companion

I have changed nothing in this except to add in the default long instruments and stacato for the shorts. I am so new to all this I didn't even know which of the articulations I should use for the longs and shorts.

I also have no idea how to mix it and do the volumes, so I have just created one with everything out of the box.

Once I figure out how to do more (I am learning music theory and piano at the moment) I will try to improve on it.


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 13, 2020)

I wish I still had access to a Proteus 2000.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> I wish I still had access to a Proteus 2000.



I wish I still had my JV1080 + Orchestral Expansions. 

Not really though. But in digital form would be fun, if they were dead cheap!


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Not really though. But in digital form would be fun, if they were dead cheap!


Agreed. The endless loading times of my E-mu 5000... no thank you. The units did sound good though. But maybe that’s sheer nostalgia speaking. I bet Miroslav sounds better


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Really wet but I like the sound of the samples.



Yeah! Wet, like drowning 

Went back in and played with the library's mic settings. If you get a moment, would like to know if you think it works better.

Cheers!


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 13, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Okay here is my totally out of the box version from a $15 Orchestral Library: Sonivox Orchestral Companion



For $15 lib and no idea what you are doing? it's bloody awesome


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Okay here is my totally out of the box version from a $15 Orchestral Library: Sonivox Orchestral Companion
> 
> I have changed nothing in this except to add in the default long instruments and stacato for the shorts. I am so new to all this I didn't even know which of the articulations I should use for the longs and shorts.
> 
> ...




Actually, that's good testament to the mbm's prep-work, and even the cheapest of libraries. If all you did now was balance the entirety of the MIDI mix to better sit with the percussion audio track, it would make a huge difference 

If that sounds like gobbledygook, then just ask. Should be very easy to help you out.


----------



## Markrs (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Actually, that's good testament to the mbm's prep-work, and even the cheapest of libraries. If all you did now was balance the entirety of the MIDI mix to better sit with the percussion audio track, it would make a huge difference
> 
> If that sounds like gobbledygook, then just ask. Should be very easy to help you out.



Thanks @el-bo I will give it a go on the weekend and see how I go, but I might just need that help!


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 13, 2020)

Last night I bought Performance Samples' Con Moto bundle (it was 50% off I had no choice I swear!!)
Need few days to play with it first, then will upload a mix.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Yeah! Wet, like drowning
> 
> Went back in and played with the library's mic settings. If you get a moment, would like to know if you think it works better.
> 
> Cheers!


Yeah, I really like the tone quality of this one. Very clean. Any hints on the big reveal? Or did you mention it already.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 13, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Okay here is my totally out of the box version from a $15 Orchestral Library: Sonivox Orchestral Companion
> 
> I have changed nothing in this except to add in the default long instruments and stacato for the shorts. I am so new to all this I didn't even know which of the articulations I should use for the longs and shorts.
> 
> ...



Sonivox also known as Sonic Implants always had one of the better woodwind libraries. That alone is worth the $15.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Thanks @el-bo I will give it a go on the weekend and see how I go, but I might just need that help!



Essentially, you'll be trying to balance the strings, winds and brass against the percussion audio track. If you assume the percussion track is at reference level, then everything else will need to come down in volume until you reach the point where the percussion can be clearly heard agains the rest, providing a foundation, and punctuating various points of the piece.

If it's overwhelming to think of a whole orchestra, perhaps break it down like a four-piece band i.e Drums, Bass, guitar & vocals. Try to work out which of the composition's parts/elements form the foundation, and which parts are there to accent, punctuate and decorate. Then work out which parts are delivering the lyrical/'vocal' content. I am an orchestral newb, also, so perhaps not the best person to give advice. However, thinking of it in this manner helps inform me as to put the focus, when mixing.

Have fun!


----------



## Markrs (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Essentially, you'll be trying to balance the strings, winds and brass against the percussion audio track. If you assume the percussion track is at reference level, then everything else will need to come down in volume until you reach the point where the percussion can be clearly heard agains the rest, providing a foundation, and punctuating various points of the piece.
> 
> If it's overwhelming to think of a whole orchestra, perhaps break it down like a four-piece band i.e Drums, Bass, guitar & vocals. Try to work out which of the composition's parts/elements form the foundation, which parts are there to accent, punctuate and decorate. Then work out which parts are delivering the lyrical/'vocal' content. I am an orchestral newb, also, so perhaps not the best person to give advice. However, thinking of it in this manner helps inform me as to put the focus, when mixing.
> 
> Have fun!


Thanks @el-bo


----------



## Markrs (Aug 13, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Sonivox also known as Sonic Implants always had one of the better woodwind libraries. That alone is worth the $15.


That’s worth knowing. I actually reinstalled this library so I could use them for this piece of music as I have east west composer cloud to explore. Now that it is installed I might as week keep it for a bit especially if the woodwinds are pretty decent


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

José Herring said:


> Yeah, I really like the tone quality of this one. Very clean. Any hints on the big reveal? Or did you mention it already.



Really surprising to find appreciation for it. It's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster, and not something I'd ever have imagined working.

Not revealed details yet. Nobody's even guessed


----------



## José Herring (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Really surprising to find appreciation for it. It's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster, and not something I'd ever have imagined working.
> 
> Not revealed details yet. Nobody's even guessed


I have a penchant for creating Frankenstein setups. I've dubbed my studio Frankenstein on many occasions. Mixture of samples from about 50 libraries old a new, Reason, Cubase, Outboard Mono synths, 30 year old JBL speakers that I replaced a blown woofer on, used Roland A 33 Controller, two different brands of computer monitors, two home made computers and a 50" flat screen TV my son dragged home from his friend's house because they were about to dump it. about 10 units of modular gear. A modified preamp I made. My trusted and never failed me 15 year old audio interface (stopped making drivers for it around windows 8 and it still works).

I'm working on getting it all homogenized but I think I'll miss out on half the fun if I do.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 13, 2020)

Markrs said:


> That’s worth knowing. I actually reinstalled this library so I could use them for this piece of music as I have east west composer cloud to explore. Now that it is installed I might as week keep it for a bit especially if the woodwinds are pretty decent


It was ported over from Gigasamples. Looks like the woodwinds survived. The strings unfortunately didn't survive. The brass always was lame imo.

Patches to check out are "expressivo" string patches. They are quite good and can still be used but limited. Also, if they have the Harmonics patches, I still use those from the original Sonic Implants. Just dial up a the Harmonics section patches and they still sound better than 90% of the libraries out there.

The thing that is cool is that the strings are smaller section sizes so it makes a good full strings patch because you can play both hands without it sounding like stacking.


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Really surprising to find appreciation for it. It's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster, and not something I'd ever have imagined working.
> 
> Not revealed details yet. Nobody's even guessed



Omnisphere + EXS24


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

José Herring said:


> I have a penchant for creating Frankenstein setups. I've dubbed my studio Frankenstein on many occasions. Mixture of samples from about 50 libraries old a new, Reason, Cubase, Outboard Mono synths, 30 year old JBL speakers that I replaced a blown woofer on, used Roland A 33 Controller, two different brands of computer monitors, two home made computers and a 50" flat screen TV my son dragged home from his friend's house because they were about to dump it. about 10 units of modular gear. A modified preamp I made. My trusted and never failed me 15 year old audio interface (stopped making drivers for it around windows 8 and it still works).
> 
> I'm working on getting it all homogenized but I think I'll miss out on half the fun if I do.



That gave me a good ol' giggle. However, in all seriousness, I like the idea of finding a use for everything we can salvage from all those purchases (GAS and non-GAS, alike), over the years.

Current living and earning situation puts paid to the idea of much in the way of new gear (Hardware is really out of the question), but I have so much great stuff I have accumulated that I really want/need for very little. And now that Logic allows dynamic loading/unloading of resources, I have every intention of loading up a crazy template, like yours, encompassing well over a decade of great source material acquisition.

But yeah...that's what this little experiment was about - A repurposing of something I already owned, for a result that never seemed to be in it's DNA 

Good times!


----------



## el-bo (Aug 13, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Omnisphere + EXS24



As much love as I have for these two, neither are involved in this. CHeers!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 13, 2020)

This is EWHO Diamond:

https://app.box.com/s/mpenirftpybbpjw7gk4m6tt31ykr6foo (EWHO Diamond - dry)
https://app.box.com/s/ldgfzer1f079fca0la7n8d6yq4na9mgu (EWHO Diamond - wet)



Spoiler: Mic positions used



Strings: Close, Mid & Main
Woodwinds: Close, Mid & Main
Brass: Close, Main & Surround





Spoiler: Patches used



Strings, long: Sus 13 RR 4th Pos NI
Strings, short: Stac On Bow RRx9

Flutes, long: FL2 Sus Vib
Flutes, short: FL2 StacSs Dbltng RRx9
Bassoons, long: BS Sus Vib
Bassoons, short: Stac Dbltng RRx9

Tuba, long: 1TU Sus
Tuba, short: 1TU StacSs Dbltng RRx9
French Horns, long: 6FH Sus
French Horns, short: 6FH Stac Dbltng RRx9
Trombones, long: 3TB Sus
Trombones, short: 3TB Staccatissimo Dbltng RRx9
Trumpets, long: 3TP Sus
Trumpets, short: 3TP Staccato RRx9





Spoiler: Reverb used in wet audio file



Hollywood Scoring Stage Large LR (default settings)



Please note:

- I'm a happy amateur, not a pro guy
- I've never really used EWHO Diamond before, except for playing a patch here and there for fun
- I've never mixed orchestral music before

Hope it's not a complete disaster!!


----------



## Alfeus Aditya (Aug 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> This is probably my favourite of all of the added ones! (Might be because the dynamics and timing are quite close to my original versions, in the sense that this is how I intended the piece to be "played".)



Thank you for your very kind words. Still love this old (but gold) product. I using some stac slur patch for fast melody.


----------



## Bman70 (Aug 13, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Really surprising to find appreciation for it. It's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster, and not something I'd ever have imagined working.
> 
> Not revealed details yet. Nobody's even guessed



It sounds similar to one of the Arks to me.


----------



## Bman70 (Aug 13, 2020)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> Hi, this is East West Hollywood Orchestra version. No External FX, no plugin, no limiter or EQ.
> I left it dry..
> I only tweak the velocity quickly because HWO have a very large dynamic, then I have to watch out for it.
> On several previous pages someone has done it with the HWO version, and this is my version
> ...





Was this Gold, or Diamond? thanks. 

p.s. it's getting frustrating to try to wade through the pages to find and compare versions. Is there a page or Soundcloud playlist with all of them?


----------



## Alfeus Aditya (Aug 13, 2020)

Bman70 said:


> Was this Gold, or Diamond? thanks.
> 
> p.s. it's getting frustrating to try to wade through the pages to find and compare versions. Is there a page or Soundcloud playlist with all of them?


Hi, I using gold. 😊


----------



## bill5 (Aug 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> (Updated)
> 
> 
> I recently decided to put my starter libraries (and myself) to the test, by remaking the same short piece using all five of them. This was mostly done for myself, to get to know their respective sounds, workflows, and overall pros and cons better, but I thought I might share the five versions here, along with my thoughts on how each of them worked out for me.
> ...



Wow what a list. Great idea and effort by you and great addditions too. I would be curious to hear people's opinions on comparisons of the others.


----------



## Bman70 (Aug 13, 2020)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> Hi, I using gold. 😊



Nice, makes me glad I bought Gold!


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2020)

Bman70 said:


> Was this Gold, or Diamond? thanks.
> 
> p.s. it's getting frustrating to try to wade through the pages to find and compare versions. Is there a page or Soundcloud playlist with all of them?



I try to update the list at the bottom of the original post with new the versions added!


----------



## Markrs (Aug 13, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> This is EWHO Diamond:
> 
> https://app.box.com/s/mpenirftpybbpjw7gk4m6tt31ykr6foo (EWHO Diamond - dry)
> https://app.box.com/s/ldgfzer1f079fca0la7n8d6yq4na9mgu (EWHO Diamond - wet)
> ...


Sounds good, glad I’m not the only one new to mixing orchestral stuff giving it a go


----------



## ptram (Aug 14, 2020)

Was someone asking for Proteus 2/Orchestral? Here it is, with and without added final reverb.

The Awakening by Jonas Salvador (Proteus 2+reverb)

The Awakening by Jonas Salvador (Proteus 2 no reverb)

Paolo


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 14, 2020)

ptram said:


> Was someone asking for Proteus 2/Orchestral? Here is it, with and without added final reverb.
> 
> The Awakening by Jonas Salvador (Proteus 2+reverb)
> 
> ...



Is it chocking on polyphony?
Ahh the good old days when on first listen you said "it sounds like midi!"


----------



## ptram (Aug 14, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Is it chocking on polyphony?


I've not noticed it, and I have an old computer!

Also, I'm surprised at how fast the sounds load!

Paolo


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 14, 2020)

There are lots of clicks when the flute+bassoon try to hold sustain... they choke and cutoff.
Not sure why does it matter you have an old computer, its a hardware module.
Btw, my music pc is still based on an X58 from 2009!


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 14, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> This is EWHO Diamond:
> 
> https://app.box.com/s/mpenirftpybbpjw7gk4m6tt31ykr6foo (EWHO Diamond - dry)
> https://app.box.com/s/ldgfzer1f079fca0la7n8d6yq4na9mgu (EWHO Diamond - wet)
> ...



Tips/Remarks:
1. Where is the perc track?
2. Too much low end hits the reverb and makes it sound boomy/woofy , put a high pass before the reverb.
3. Where is the perc track???


----------



## el-bo (Aug 14, 2020)

Bman70 said:


> It sounds similar to one of the Arks to me.



Interesting...Which of the Ark libraries is closest? Or is it just a general quality that they all share, to some extent?


----------



## Thudinthenight (Aug 14, 2020)

This is a fascinating thread! From what I can tell, we should be able to pick and choose from free or low-priced libraries to get pretty decent results. If you already have Logic Pro X or Kontakt plus a couple of other cheap libraries you can get a credible sounding score.

I thought the Proteus one was amusing.

I wish I had something to offer here, maybe I'll pick up the Zebra Orchestra soundset for U-he Zebra and see how well a 100% synthesized orchestra holds up.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 14, 2020)

Thudinthenight said:


> This is a fascinating thread! From what I can tell, we should be able to pick and choose from free or low-priced libraries to get pretty decent results. If you already have Logic Pro X or Kontakt plus a couple of other cheap libraries you can get a credible sounding score.
> 
> I thought the Proteus one was amusing.
> 
> I wish I had something to offer here, maybe I'll pick up the Zebra Orchestra soundset for U-he Zebra and see how well a 100% synthesized orchestra holds up.



In defence of the more expensive libraries, please note that I wrote the track FOR a quite basic library (CineSymphony) first, and therefore intentionally didn't use any of the advanced features, instruments, or articulations that more advanced libraries offer. That's a big reason why many versions here sound ok, simply because the track is very simple in itself.

Using only the most basic long/short articulations, and full ensembles and sections, won't sound THAT different when swithcing up to a more advanced library. However going the other way, writing to the strengths of a more expensive library, using loads of legato transitions, portamentos, and exposed solo instruments, and then moving that to a cheaper or free option would undoubtedly sound horrific. 

Another thing, that someone mentioned, is the fact that the track has a certain type of retro game vibe to it, which I believe also makes us more forgiving to a less realistic sound, and more willing to accept the midi-sounding versions as ok. I think that, with a few exceptions and rare gems, most libraries actually do give you what you pay for.


----------



## Thudinthenight (Aug 14, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> In defence of the more expensive libraries, please note that I wrote the track FOR a quite basic library (CineSymphony) first, and therefore intentionally didn't use any of the advanced features, instruments, or articulations that more advanced libraries offer. That's a big reason why many versions here sound ok, simply because the track is very simple in itself.
> 
> Using only the most basic long/short articulations, and full ensembles and sections, won't sound THAT different when swithcing up to a more advanced library. However going the other way, writing to the strengths of a more expensive library, using loads of legato transitions, portamentos, and exposed solo instruments, and then moving that to a cheaper or free option would undoubtedly sound horrific.
> 
> Another thing, that someone mentioned, is the fact that the track has a certain type of retro game vibe to it, which I believe also makes us more forgiving to a less realistic sound, and more willing to accept the midi-sounding versions as ok. I think that, with a few exceptions and rare gems, most libraries actually do give you what you pay for.



Of course! It just shows that if somebody is just starting out, there's a good chance they might already have what they need to produce straightforward tracks like these and learn how to make them sound good. Now "advanced libraries compared" would be a whole different thread (and different demo track).


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 14, 2020)

Thudinthenight said:


> This is a fascinating thread! From what I can tell, we should be able to pick and choose from free or low-priced libraries to get pretty decent results. If you already have Logic Pro X or Kontakt plus a couple of other cheap libraries you can get a credible sounding score.
> 
> I thought the Proteus one was amusing.
> 
> I wish I had something to offer here, maybe I'll pick up the Zebra Orchestra soundset for U-he Zebra and see how well a 100% synthesized orchestra holds up.



mbd explained this well.
If the track was more symphonic, slow tempo, long notes, more specific articulations, exposed instruments... 40% of the libs posted here would be dead from the get go, 30% will be so so, and the last 30% will fill the nice>very nice>great>wow scale  

Still, this thread/experiment is very valuable + lots of fun!

Btw, I think we should start brainstorming about making this again but with a more lyrical/gentle track.
Could be a ballad style or some easy to digest symphonic piece... lets stress those libs


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 14, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Tips/Remarks:
> 1. Where is the perc track?
> 2. Too much low end hits the reverb and makes it sound boomy/woofy , put a high pass before the reverb.
> 3. Where is the perc track???


I was way too busy getting just the HO samples to sound ok. Good grief it’s difficult to mix with so many instruments and sections.

Thanks for the reverb tip, I’ll try that. I could hear the wet mix was sounding boomy, but I had no idea what to do about it!


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 15, 2020)

Thudinthenight said:


> Of course! It just shows that if somebody is just starting out, there's a good chance they might already have what they need to produce straightforward tracks like these and learn how to make them sound good. Now "advanced libraries compared" would be a whole different thread (and different demo track).



I get what you mean! Out of the original five, Cinesymphony was my first purchase, and after having added Nucleus, Originals, Inspire, and BBCSO, to the collection, I still like CineSymphony best in many ways.

Sure it can’t do everything (besides Originals, all of the others include much more) but what it CAN do sounds absolutely great. So yeah. Use what you have, and write to its strengths. Just like with any other instrument.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 15, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I still like CineSymphony best in many ways



I actually really like the sound of the percussion track (I think that was CineSymphomy, right?).


----------



## el-bo (Aug 15, 2020)

As there doesn’t seem to be too much interest in guessing the libraries I used on my second offering, I might as well reveal:

Strings and brass came from Spitfire’s Tundra and the winds are from Amadeus Symphony Orchestra. I originally wanted to use Tundra’s winds but they were out of the playable range. If I ever learn how to extend ranges within Kontakt I may revisit the project.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 15, 2020)

el-bo said:


> I actually really like the sound of the percussion track (I think that was CineSymphomy, right?).



Yup! I love the sound of CineSymphony Lite! If they made a 2020 update (or released a higher tear that was in-between lite and the full range) with just some additions to get it closer to modern packages in the same price range, it would by far be my favorite!

Just legato for violins, celli, trumpets, horns, flutes, and oboes. And/or solo instruments for the same six. Plus some tonal percussion and a harp, would bring it to the same content range as inspire, nucleus, and the likes and make it more competitive. The sound is already fantastic!


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 15, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Just legato for violins, celli, trumpets, horns, flutes, and oboes. And/or solo instruments for the same six. Plus some tonal percussion and a harp, would bring it to the same content range as inspire, nucleus, and the likes and make it more competitive. The sound is already fantastic!



Yea but then they wouldn't call it Lite.


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 15, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Strings and brass came from Spitfire’s Tundra and the winds are from Amadeus Symphony Orchestra.



I don't know Amadeus but mostly would never associate Tundra with a tune like that.
Interesting


----------



## VMC (Aug 15, 2020)

Hello! I am pretty new to the Forum. Is it ok if I post a track in this thread, it’s kind of a starter library & I just want to know how it sounds from a different perspective. Just to know how the samples are from other ears.

VMC


----------



## rrichard63 (Aug 15, 2020)

VMC said:


> Hello! I am pretty new to the Forum. Is it ok if I post a track in this thread, it’s kind of a starter library & I just want to know how it sounds from a different perspective. Just to know how the samples are from other ears.


This thread is devoted to the specific composition in the original post. If I understand you correctly, your track is a different piece of music. In that case, it should probably be posted here:






Member's Compositions & Mockups


Add your URL to a completed composition on your personal music website. Your composition will be reviewed by a community member.




vi-control.net


----------



## Markrs (Aug 15, 2020)

Sonivox Film Companion v2

Okay, my previous atempt didn't have any reverb and no mixing. This time I have added reverb (only the reverb that comes with the sample library) and tried to mix it somewhat. I haven't done any volume automation yet with it.


----------



## VMC (Aug 15, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> This thread is devoted to the specific composition in the original post. If I understand you correctly, your track is a different piece of music. In that case, it should probably be posted here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello! I understand but it says review and I don’t want it to be reviewed. I just want to see how it sounds from another ear. Specifically the samples. So that I can check the samples & the workout. May be is it advisable to start a new thread?

VMC


----------



## el-bo (Aug 15, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> I don't know Amadeus but mostly would never associate Tundra with a tune like that.
> Interesting



Definitely a big surprise for me. The strings took pretty well to the piece, straight out of the box. The brass definitely needed more work.


----------



## rrichard63 (Aug 15, 2020)

VMC said:


> May be is it advisable to start a new thread?


Yes.


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 15, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Sonivox Film Companion v2
> 
> Okay, my previous atempt didn't have any reverb and no mixing. This time I have added reverb (only the reverb that comes with the sample library) and tried to mix it somewhat. I haven't done any volume automation yet with it.




It sound very "out of breath", like things don't have any sustain?... sorry its 3AM here so that's the best I can offer lol
But really, compare it to say cinesymphony on page 1 and you'll immediately understand what I was trying to say.

G`night.


----------



## Markrs (Aug 15, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> It sound very "out of breath", like things don't have any sustain?... sorry its 3AM here so that's the best I can offer lol
> But really, compare it to say cinesymphony on page 1 and you'll immediately understand what I was trying to say.
> 
> G`night.


I do know what you mean and noticed it myself (I was mixing based on the cinesymphony version) and am using the sustain patches. I think it us a weakness of the sample library. The only was I could reduce that feeling was to increase reverb but then you lost the bite of the instrument.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 15, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Sonivox Film Companion v2
> 
> Okay, my previous atempt didn't have any reverb and no mixing. This time I have added reverb (only the reverb that comes with the sample library) and tried to mix it somewhat. I haven't done any volume automation yet with it.




The String Longs seem to be either missing or being mixed very low in the second half. We only hear the Shorts!


----------



## Markrs (Aug 16, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> The String Longs seem to be either missing or being mixed very low in the second half. We only hear the Shorts!


That’s good feedback I will look into that to see if I can bring them further up into the mix


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 16, 2020)

Markrs said:


> That’s good feedback I will look into that to see if I can bring them further up into the mix



I suspect that your library starts with a low CC value for modulation or expression of the longs at load, that will stay low unless raised. If it’s not that the entire track is missing or that the track volume is low, try the mod wheel!


----------



## Markrs (Aug 16, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I suspect that your library starts with a low CC value for modulation or expression of the longs at load, that will stay low unless raised. If it’s not that the entire track is missing or that the track volume is low, try the mod wheel!


Oddly the mod wheel seems not to work with these libraries, it displays the wheel even in the graphical interface but using it doesn’t seem to make any difference. Will definitely try and give it another go


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 16, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Oddly the mod wheel seems not to work with these libraries, it displays the wheel even in the graphical interface but using it doesn’t seem to make any difference. Will definitely try and give it another go



That's because most low cost libs are velocity switched.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 16, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Sonivox Film Companion v2
> 
> Okay, my previous atempt didn't have any reverb and no mixing. This time I have added reverb (only the reverb that comes with the sample library) and tried to mix it somewhat. I haven't done any volume automation yet with it.




Definitely getting there. I'd perhaps turn the violins (Introduced in second half) and brass down a little. But thats just my personal opinion 👍


----------



## Markrs (Aug 16, 2020)

Thanks for the help everyone, will look to make some changes to it today. Just want to also say that for me this is the best thread on vi-control. I love all the different libraries used but more importantly how helpful and supportive everyone has been.


----------



## pcarrilho (Aug 16, 2020)

Here is my version.
Used Project Sam Orchestral Essencials 1 & 2. Used only resources from the libs.
I love those Libs!

Orchestral Essencials 1 & 2


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 16, 2020)

pcarrilho said:


> Here is my version.
> Used Project Sam Orchestral Essencials 1 & 2. Used only resources from the libs.
> I love those Libs!
> 
> Orchestral Essencials 1 & 2




Sound lovely.


----------



## pcarrilho (Aug 16, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Sound lovely.



Thanks!
I really like Project Sam Sounds!


----------



## VMC (Aug 16, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> Yes.


Hello!

Thanks. I will.

VMC


----------



## Markrs (Aug 16, 2020)

Well I have done a version 3, which I hope sounds a bit better. If I had more knowledge and ability I could probably take this further. I have also included the previous versions just to show the difference. I also added a version with Gulfoss (50 recover 50 tame), which is cheating as it is doing EQing but I was keen to see the difference it could make.


No reverb at all just plonked the patches in.


First attempt with reverb.


After feedback so changed the reverb and worked on the balance


Using Gulfoss (which actually sounds a bit thin, would probably need to dial back the EQing effect it is doing)


----------



## el-bo (Aug 16, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Well I have done a version 3, which I hope sounds a bit better. If I had more knowledge and ability I could probably take this further. I have also included the previous versions just to show the difference. I also added a version with Gulfoss (50 recover 50 tame), which is cheating as it is doing EQing but I was keen to see the difference it could make.
> 
> 
> No reverb at all just plonked the patches in.
> ...





Great job! Really interesting to see the rapid progress!


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 16, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> That's because most low cost libs are velocity switched.


Who knows? May be the next one of the most versatile & expensive libraries could be velocity switched.


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 16, 2020)

pcarrilho said:


> Here is my version.
> Used Project Sam Orchestral Essencials 1 & 2. Used only resources from the libs.
> I love those Libs!
> 
> Orchestral Essencials 1 & 2



I know. PSam are bombastic in sound.


----------



## Gauss (Aug 16, 2020)

Xpand!2 version . Just a little bit of balancing. No external processing. For some reason levels are all over the place. I might fix it later.


----------



## Hendrixon (Aug 16, 2020)

I don't know what Xpand!2 is, but it honestly sounds like some old Roland general midi modules


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 16, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> I don't know what Xpand!2 is, but it honestly sounds like some old Roland general midi modules


Xpand!2 is the stock rompler that used to be (maybe still is) part of ProTools. It can also be used in other DAWs, and can be bought sometimes for as little as $1 (BF 2017!). It is actually not far from being an old Roland rompler, in a good way. It has a lot of decent sample based synthesized sounds. For orchestral works, well... you’ve now heard it.

@Gauss Awesome job! Now... on to the AIR MusicTech Structure2 version? ❤


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 16, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> I don't know what Xpand!2 is, but it honestly sounds like some old Roland general midi modules


What the Hell?
I guess Air Music Technology’s right?


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 16, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Xpand!2 is the stock rompler that used to be (maybe still is) part of ProTools. It can also be used in other DAWs, and can be bought sometimes for as little as $1 (BF 2017!). It is actually not far from being an old Roland rompler, in a good way. It has a lot of decent sample based synthesized sounds. For orchestral works, well... you’ve now heard it.
> 
> @Gauss Awesome job! Now... on to the AIR MusicTech Structure2 version? ❤


I heard Structure’s got much good samples compared to Xpand. Is it right?


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 16, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> I heard Structure’s got much good samples compared to Xpand. Is it right?


Pretty decent, but orchestral samples... meh.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 17, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> I was way too busy getting just the HO samples to sound ok. Good grief it’s difficult to mix with so many instruments and sections.
> 
> Thanks for the reverb tip, I’ll try that. I could hear the wet mix was sounding boomy, but I had no idea what to do about it!



Listen to @Alfeus Aditya version using EWHO Gold for a great mix here:





5 Starter Libraries Compared


Since my template is down after building a new computer, I decided to visit my first love. So here's a version with the old, old, old, EWQLSO XP still on Kontakt. Was a PIA to work with but part of me still believes in Nick and Doug's original vision. I wish they would just go back to the...




vi-control.net


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 17, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Yea but then they wouldn't call it Lite.



Perhaps.  But regardless of what it would be called, other libraries in the same price range do contain those things. My point was just that I'd absolutely love an updated / new version of CSL, that was more competitive with the similarly priced starter libraries of today (Inspire, Nucleus, etc..).


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 17, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Well I have done a version 3, which I hope sounds a bit better. If I had more knowledge and ability I could probably take this further. I have also included the previous versions just to show the difference. I also added a version with Gulfoss (50 recover 50 tame), which is cheating as it is doing EQing but I was keen to see the difference it could make.
> 
> 
> No reverb at all just plonked the patches in.
> ...




Great improvement! The longs and shorts glue together as one now! :D


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 17, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Pretty decent, but orchestral samples... meh.


Ok but are those at least close to what Miroslav delivers?


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 17, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Ok but are those at least close to what Miroslav delivers?


No. I have used Miroslav PH2 a lot, and still do use it for sketching, and it beats the quality of the Structure 2 samples. At least for me. I do have to point out though that it’s been a long time since I last used Structure.


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 17, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Perhaps.  But regardless of what it would be called, other libraries in the same price range do contain those things. My point was just that I'd absolutely love an updated / new version of CSL, that was more competitive with the similarly priced starter libraries of today (Inspire, Nucleus, etc..).


You’re right. The Lite version got like what 6 patches? And it’s $399. You can get Inspire for that. Nucleus you gotta pay 50 more but yea. I mean Nucleus Lite is just the same thing it’s $99. In a way, fairly priced. I guess Cinesamples should lower the price to $99 if that’s what they gonna offer & not more. Or may be put some legato patches & release it as Cine Symphony Core & so on. 
Another thing, Nucleus Lite got Choir. I don’t think CineSymphony got it or it does?


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 17, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> No. I have used Miroslav PH2 a lot, and still do use it for sketching, and it beats the quality of the Structure 2 samples. At least for me. I do have to point out though that it’s been a long time since I last used Structure.


That’s something!


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 17, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> You’re right. The Lite version got like what 6 patches? And it’s $399. You can get Inspire for that. Nucleus you gotta pay 50 more but yea. I mean Nucleus Lite is just the same thing it’s $99. In a way, fairly priced. I guess Cinesamples should lower the price to $99 if that’s what they gonna offer & not more. Or may be put some legato patches & release it as Cine Symphony Core & so on.
> Another thing, Nucleus Lite got Choir. I don’t think CineSymphony got it or it does?



At first sight it's just longs and shorts for Strings, Winds, and Brass ensembles, plus Pizzicato, Timpani and Percussion, but you can actually break out the ensembles to the individual sections which makes it a whole lot more advanced. I think the only thing really missing to raise it to the level of Inspire and Nucleus is Tremolo for the strings, legatos and solos for some of the lead instruments, and some tonal percussion. That would bring it to the same level of the other libs, cause the overall quality of sound is definitely in the same league if not above. But yeah, either cut the price, or add those things would make it competative!


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 17, 2020)

A


mybadmemory said:


> At first sight it's just longs and shorts for Strings, Winds, and Brass ensembles, plus Pizzicato, Timpani and Percussion, but you can actually break out the ensembles to the individual sections which makes it a whole lot more advanced. I think the only thing really missing to raise it to the level of Inspire and Nucleus is Tremolo for the strings, legatos and solos for some of the lead instruments, and some tonal percussion. That would bring it to the same level of the other libs, cause the overall quality of sound is definitely in the same league if not above. But yeah, either cut the price, or add those things would make it competative!


That’s right!


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 18, 2020)

el-bo said:


> As there doesn’t seem to be too much interest in guessing the libraries I used on my second offering, I might as well reveal:
> 
> Strings and brass came from Spitfire’s Tundra and the winds are from Amadeus Symphony Orchestra. I originally wanted to use Tundra’s winds but they were out of the playable range. If I ever learn how to extend ranges within Kontakt I may revisit the project.


The quick way to extend is to create a new instance of the instrument and use Kontakt to repitch the library (say, up a minor third) and you use that version for the extended notes. You can also do it inside Kontakt so long as you have the full version of Kontakt and the patch isn’t locked, though it can still be fairly complicated to do depending on how the instrument is programmed.


----------



## VMC (Aug 18, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> Yes.



I am sorry for my late response. Here's the thread I started. Please let me know if you have any problems listening. Thanks again for your patience.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/an-original-music-track-guess-the-libraries.97360/

VMC


----------



## el-bo (Aug 19, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> The quick way to extend is to create a new instance of the instrument and use Kontakt to repitch the library (say, up a minor third) and you use that version for the extended notes. You can also do it inside Kontakt so long as you have the full version of Kontakt and the patch isn’t locked, though it can still be fairly complicated to do depending on how the instrument is programmed.




Thanks for the response!

Up till this point, I've mostly been using Kontakt (Full) in the same way as I used to use 'Player'. The only reason I've ventured behind-the-scenes is to fiddle with embedded effects, so this might be a good way of getting a little bit more familiar with things.

When you speak of locked libraries, do you mean that they are completely unaccessible (No access with the wrench icon), or that various parts of the engine would be locked off?

I'll look into the pitching idea, first.

Thanks, again.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 19, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Thanks for the response!
> 
> Up till this point, I've mostly been using Kontakt (Full) in the same way as I used to use 'Player'. The only reason I've ventured behind-the-scenes is to fiddle with embedded effects, so this might be a good way of getting a little bit more familiar with things.
> 
> ...


Yes, so anything from SF with a legato patch will be locked and inaccessible. But I also find many commercial libraries complex in organization so figuring out which samples to stretch isn’t always straightforward. I also don’t know my way around the guts of Kontakt all that well.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 20, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, so anything from SF with a legato patch will be locked and inaccessible. But I also find many commercial libraries complex in organization so figuring out which samples to stretch isn’t always straightforward. I also don’t know my way around the guts of Kontakt all that well.



Thanks!

I did have a quick look at the manual, but decided not to mess with anything as complex as a first trial. And if it's locked anyway, that just seals the deal. If I get a bored moment, I might try recording within the given range, bouncing to audio, then using Logic to re-pitch the line (Have seen Jacob Collier use this technique with vocals, with pretty good results).


----------



## VSriHarsha (Aug 20, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, so anything from SF with a legato patch will be locked and inaccessible. But I also find many commercial libraries complex in organization so figuring out which samples to stretch isn’t always straightforward. I also don’t know my way around the guts of Kontakt all that well.


What the hell? You can actually stretch the samples? Seriously?


----------



## dzilizzi (Aug 20, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I did have a quick look at the manual, but decided not to mess with anything as complex as a first trial. And if it's locked anyway, that just seals the deal. If I get a bored moment, I might try recording within the given range, bouncing to audio, then using Logic to re-pitch the line (Have seen Jacob Collier use this technique with vocals, with pretty good results).


Just remember before messing with these things, especially if you don't know what you are doing, save it as a new preset/instrument first. Then do your adjustments and save again. That way if you screw it up, you won't have to redownload it or have to figure out which external drive you put your back up on...... Not talking from personal experience or anything.....


----------



## el-bo (Aug 20, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Just remember before messing with these things, especially if you don't know what you are doing, save it as a new preset/instrument first. Then do your adjustments and save again. That way if you screw it up, you won't have to redownload it or have to figure out which external drive you put your back up on...... *Not talking from personal experience or anything.....*



That's very fortunate 

Anyway! Definitely gone off the idea. Someday...perhaps.

Thanks!


----------



## dzilizzi (Aug 20, 2020)

el-bo said:


> That's very fortunate
> 
> Anyway! Definitely gone off the idea. Someday...perhaps.
> 
> Thanks!


I had a backup. It was just figuring out where I put it that was a problem..... I've actually messed with some things. It can be fun and you can get some interesting sounds. I haven't messed with the wav files yet though.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 21, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I had a backup. It was just figuring out where I put it that was a problem..... I've actually messed with some things. It can be fun and you can get some interesting sounds. I haven't messed with the wav files yet though.



Glad you got it sorted out, in the end.

Definitely seems a shame to have such a powerful sampler and not mess around with it. Not finding it such a comfortable workspace on my laptop, however.


----------



## dzilizzi (Aug 21, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Glad you got it sorted out, in the end.
> 
> Definitely seems a shame to have such a powerful sampler and not mess around with it. Not finding it such a comfortable workspace on my laptop, however.


Groove3 has a really good tutorial on Kontakt. I don't know if has been updated for 6 though. But I think a lot of the behind the wrench stuff that a non-developer might do probably hasn't changed.


----------



## el-bo (Aug 23, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Groove3 has a really good tutorial on Kontakt. I don't know if has been updated for 6 though. But I think a lot of the behind the wrench stuff that a non-developer might do probably hasn't changed.



Ultimately, this is something to put on the back-burner as there are other things to learn that I'd consider a priority. Will definitely check out the G3 course, though.

Many thanks!


----------



## derkoop (Nov 7, 2020)

And to revive this thread just another newbie tryout. I know, SFA AR1 deserves much better, but this is just Out-of-the-box


----------



## mybadmemory (Nov 7, 2020)

derkoop said:


> And to revive this thread just another newbie tryout. I know, SFA AR1 deserves much better, but this is just Out-of-the-box



Fun to see this thread still remembered (and to hear my old tune with AR1)! The tone and sound of this library seem fantastic!

If I may, I’d suggest two small tweaks:

1. The timing of the percussion track seem off in relation to the strings, brass, winds. Most probably a little early. I think delaying it by 40-80ms until it sounds more in time (with the short strings for example) would do the trick. 

2. The balance between the layered longs and shorts seem a bit off. Perhaps try adjusting their respective volumes until they glue together as one sound, just with a sharper attack than the longs themselves?


----------



## derkoop (Nov 7, 2020)

Greetings from Hamburg and thanks for your friendly advice I'll try it again tomorrow.


----------



## derkoop (Nov 8, 2020)

And here´s the next try...


----------



## YK47 (Dec 12, 2020)

I love this theme so much, that since I listened to it a few days ago I whisper it all day long!

Is it time to drop the thread rules and let everyone do what they feel with the piece? Compress, EQ, reverb, mix, match etC?


----------



## Markrs (Dec 12, 2020)

This is one of my favourite threads on VI-C and would love for it go further and see what can be done with the theme.


----------



## el-bo (Dec 12, 2020)

YK47 said:


> I love this theme so much, that since I listened to it a few days ago I whisper it all day long!
> 
> Is it time to drop the thread rules and let everyone do what they feel with the piece? Compress, EQ, reverb, mix, match etC?



It's definitely sprung randomly to my mind, on many occasions


----------



## Tremendouz (Dec 12, 2020)

I tried some libraries which have been sub-$100 on sales (minus strings because my budget option Spitfire Originals was already covered)

- Cinematic Strings 2
- Auddict Master Solo Woodwinds
- Adventure Brass (this really suffers from the no reverb rule since it's bone dry)

EDIT: Added a 2nd version which might or might not feel more balanced


----------



## rnb_2 (Dec 12, 2020)

I find this theme running through my head pretty regularly - happy to hear I’m not the only one!


----------



## Markrs (Dec 12, 2020)

Tremendouz said:


> I tried some libraries which have been sub-$100 on sales (minus strings because my budget option Spitfire Originals was already covered)
> 
> - Cinematic Strings 2
> - Auddict Master Solo Woodwinds
> ...


Sounds very good, prefer the 2nd version


----------



## mybadmemory (Dec 12, 2020)

Can’t believe this thread still goes on!

And by all means, feel completely free to do whatever you want with it! What we have at this point has surpassed any intentions I had by miles already, and we are running out of libraries anyway.

I’d certainly love to hear what people more talented than me could do with it, no matter if it’s a completely new arrangement, better midi programming, mixing, or something else. Go nuts!


----------



## Tremendouz (Dec 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Can’t believe this thread still goes on!
> 
> And by all means, feel completely free to do whatever you want with it! What we have at this point has surpassed any intentions I had by miles already, and we are running out of libraries anyway.
> 
> I’d certainly love to hear what people more talented than me could do with it, no matter if it’s a completely new arrangement, better midi programming, mixing, or something else. Go nuts!


I definitely wanna give this a try with CSS, CSB and... _certain woodwinds library_ when it's out. I just love the composition


----------



## mybadmemory (Dec 12, 2020)

Tremendouz said:


> I definitely wanna give this a try with CSS, CSB and... _certain woodwinds library_ when it's out. I just love the composition



I Would love that! And please don’t feel restricted to my arrangement, the provided midi programming, or anything.

For anyone wanting to add a version from here on, just make it the best you can!


----------



## nowimhere (Dec 12, 2020)

It's spitfire Abby road in here?


----------



## Denkii (Dec 12, 2020)

nowimhere said:


> It's spitfire Abby road in here?


it even is on this very same page. You can do it, I have faith.


----------



## markleake (Dec 12, 2020)

Tremendouz said:


> I tried some libraries which have been sub-$100 on sales (minus strings because my budget option Spitfire Originals was already covered)
> 
> - Cinematic Strings 2
> - Auddict Master Solo Woodwinds
> ...


This is one of my favourites, especially the second remixed one. CS2 and MSW perform admirably here. The strings especially stand out to me as being much more suited to this than some other examples here. Funny how the old libraries perform so well.


----------



## nowimhere (Dec 12, 2020)

Denkii said:


> it even is on this very same page. You can do it, I have faith.



Got lazy on my mobile phone, just read the first few pages then asked the q.
I'll be a better, promise


----------



## Tremendouz (Dec 12, 2020)

markleake said:


> This is one of my favourites, especially the second remixed one. CS2 and MSW perform admirably here. The strings especially stand out to me as being much more suited to this than some other examples here. Funny how the old libraries perform so well.


Short articulations in general (which are heavily utilized here) don't really age, good samples recorded years ago are still good samples


----------



## Tremendouz (Dec 12, 2020)

I couldn't sleep so I messed with my earlier attempt above a bit more, this time discarding the rules and using reverb, some dynamic EQ for the bassoons and then some lightweight "mastering" with Neutron Sculptor and Ozone.

Goes to show the difference a little processing does instead of running relatively dry libraries without reverb etc. :D


----------



## markleake (Dec 12, 2020)

Tremendouz said:


> Short articulations in general (which are heavily utilized here) don't really age, good samples recorded years ago are still good samples


Yes, agreed, of course.

But I think it's more than that. That's why I was taken with CS2... it seems very balanced and there seems to have been consideration by the developer of how the shorts _should_ sound when mixed in with a larger mix, rather than just record some shorts and be done with it. It's the kind of quality in a library that you don't always get.


----------



## Tremendouz (Dec 12, 2020)

markleake said:


> Yes, agreed, of course.
> 
> But I think it's more than that. That's why I was taken with CS2... it seems very balanced and there seems to have been consideration by the developer of how the shorts _should_ sound when mixed in with a larger mix, rather than just record some shorts and be done with it. It's the kind of quality in a library that you don't always get.


Good point. It also helps that the library lets you tweak the length of the shorts which I slightly did (I gave the staccatissimos more tail/sustain)


----------



## mybadmemory (Dec 13, 2020)

Tremendouz said:


> Short articulations in general (which are heavily utilized here) don't really age, good samples recorded years ago are still good samples



I agree! I think, since I originally wrote the piece in the early 2000s (on a Roland JV1080 with the orchestral cards) its written using only basic layered longs and shorts.

The first version I made here was also the one for CineSymphony, which has very limited articulations. 

Had I started with a more advanced library, using more advanced articulations for the writing, I guess the older or simpler libraries hadn’t worked that well. It’s really written for them!


----------



## mybadmemory (Dec 13, 2020)

I do agree @Tremendouz version with CS2 sounds fantastic though! <3


----------



## PaulieDC (Mar 29, 2021)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> Hi, this is East West Hollywood Orchestra version. No External FX, no plugin, no limiter or EQ.
> I left it dry..
> I only tweak the velocity quickly because HWO have a very large dynamic, then I have to watch out for it.
> On several previous pages someone has done it with the HWO version, and this is my version
> ...



Wow, EWHO is just as viable as ever. I have it and never use it. Time to change that.


----------



## daychase (Jun 17, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> I agree! I think, since I originally wrote the piece in the early 2000s (on a Roland JV1080 with the orchestral cards) its written using only basic layered longs and shorts.
> 
> The first version I made here was also the one for CineSymphony, which has very limited articulations.
> 
> Had I started with a more advanced library, using more advanced articulations for the writing, I guess the older or simpler libraries hadn’t worked that well. It’s really written for them!


On the topic of vintage Roland samples: I've given it a shot on the Roland Sound Canvas VA!

I've always been a fan of these older, cheesier sample libraries from their use all across media from the 90's and early 2000's - especially JRPGs - so I'd like to think I've done this module justice. (or, at least so I hope)

I've handled reverb and panning exclusively through the plugin itself, and adjusted some ADSR envelopes and chorus effects to make it sound hopefully more like an ensemble, though I'll admit I'm still a novice at mixing and panning orchestras, as well as making proper use of reverb.

(Also, hopefully this can serve as a bump to bring the thread to the attention to other new members here like me 😄)


----------



## el-bo (Jun 17, 2022)

And…we’re back!


----------



## mybadmemory (Jun 17, 2022)

daychase said:


> On the topic of vintage Roland samples: I've given it a shot on the Roland Sound Canvas VA!
> 
> I've always been a fan of these older, cheesier sample libraries from their use all across media from the 90's and early 2000's - especially JRPGs - so I'd like to think I've done this module justice. (or, at least so I hope)
> 
> ...


Hah! That makes me super nostalgic! I don't think i've actually posted the 20 year old (slightly different) original, so here goes. Roland JV1080 with Orch exp, from sometime in the late 90s / early 2000s.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 17, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> Hah! That makes me super nostalgic! I don't think i've actually posted the 20 year old (slightly different) original, so here goes. Roland JV1080 with Orch exp, from sometime in the late 90s / early 2000s.


That sounds pretty damn good for 20 year old samples! You definitely got the best out of them


----------



## mybadmemory (Jun 17, 2022)

Markrs said:


> That sounds pretty damn good for 20 year old samples! You definitely got the best out of them


For some reason I always found the 1080 and Orch Exp very easy to work with. It sounded... cohesive. In the same way i think BBCSO sounds cohesive today. Obviously with a different standard back then, but still. Combining the sounds never felt forced, but quite natural. I guess part of that was because of Eric Persings magic, and part that i just drenched it all in the internal reverb which i also really liked.


----------



## Orpheus Glory (Jun 17, 2022)

This thread is such a gem, thanks a lot. Out of the original I certainly like Cinesymphony and Nucleus the best, with a an edge to Cinesamples. For some reason I just can't get along with that BBCSO sound...


----------



## mybadmemory (Jun 17, 2022)

Orpheus Glory said:


> This thread is such a gem, thanks a lot. Out of the original I certainly like Cinesymphony and Nucleus the best, with a an edge to Cinesamples. For some reason I just can't get along with that BBCSO sound...


Thanks! I prefer those two as well. Though in all honesty, I think all of them sound quite bad now a few years later. :D I hope that means I’ve improved somewhat since!


----------



## caneki (Oct 9, 2022)

Hello...! 
The virtual instrument used is the Sonic Scores-Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra
The modifications were a bit of a velocity and a little bit of penning. 
It also feels like the volume has become a bit smaller.


----------



## liquidlino (Oct 9, 2022)

Kevperry777 said:


> This is ARK 1....except for percussion and flute which Ark 1 doesn't have. I just plugged in Kontakt Factory library. Not much tweaking done here....ark 1 string staccatos are a percussion section in and of themselves.



It's funny, that "Flute" sounds more like a tenor recorder in this piece... might be the lack of dynamics programming/performance, but it definitely sounds like a recorder.


----------

