# What are the violins doing here?



## RiffWraith (Apr 17, 2014)

I tried a violin forum, but as it turns out, I might be better off here. Was hoping someone could take a listen to this short audio ex:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/Hobbit-ex1.mp3 (www.jeffreyhayat.com/Hobbit-ex1.mp3)

- and tell me what the violins (and violas?) are doing. I am hearing E > A, but that's about all I can tell. I know it's not that easy to hear, but was hoping someone might be able to tell. The answer I got on the other forum was _violins are alternating E and A (open strings) slurred rather than separate bows._ I am not completely confident that's correct. 

Ideas?

Thanks in advance.


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## The Darris (Apr 17, 2014)

Sounds like that shimmer arpeggio trick where the Vlns are playing from high to low back and forth: e6 a5 e5 a5 e6 (back and forth) while the Violas are doing an opposite pattern like e4 a4 e5 a4 e5 a4 repeat. 

I could be wrong but it does sound like that 'shimmer' style Mike Verta has talked about a few times in his last couple classes.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Apr 17, 2014)

It sounds like they are indeed alternating the open strings E and A, but they seem to be doing so in divisi with the individual sections purposely out of sync (i.e. alternating sections for each note), so the notes sound 'quasi-simultaneous' while there is still some movement going on in the accompanying strings.

This might be an excellent question for an experienced conductor.

Anyone?

- Jerome


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Apr 17, 2014)

The Darris @ Fri Apr 18 said:


> Sounds like that shimmer arpeggio trick where the Vlns are playing from high to low back and forth: e6 a5 e5 a5 e6 (back and forth) while the Violas are doing an opposite pattern like e4 a4 e5 a4 e5 a4 repeat.



While I was typing my suggestion, you posted a similar observation, but you said it much better and much more precise than I did. This is exactly what I hear too, though. I just don't have the same vocabulary to explain it properly. :oops:

- Jerome


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 17, 2014)

On my lousy computer speakers it sounded like sul ponticello (near the bridge) as well.


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## The Darris (Apr 17, 2014)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Thu Apr 17 said:


> The Darris @ Fri Apr 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like that shimmer arpeggio trick where the Vlns are playing from high to low back and forth: e6 a5 e5 a5 e6 (back and forth) while the Violas are doing an opposite pattern like e4 a4 e5 a4 e5 a4 repeat.
> ...



Haha, no worries. I used the range identifiers so I didn't confuse the OP with the movement side of things. I feel your assessment it rather spot on too with the divisi randomness but I think it is random sound due to the Violins playing straight down and up and the the Violas maybe offset with a triplet pattern going up then down. Again, this orchestration is an effect versus anything and can't really be created with samples (unless it was recorded phrases).


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Apr 17, 2014)

The Darris @ Fri Apr 18 said:


> (...) divisi randomness (...) I think it is random sound due to the Violins playing straight down and up and the the Violas maybe offset with a triplet pattern going up then down.


That's very clever! I didn't think of that.

You statement that this effect cannot be (re-)created with samples is interesting, because it would mean that, unless the composer has 'found' the effect by trial and error or just by chance, his imagination must be more accurate and more 'realistic' than any library of virtual strings can be!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## The Darris (Apr 17, 2014)

From Mike Verta's explanation, it has to do with how the instruments sound together playing it as an ensemble. To me, this means that the harmonics and overtones in the room while they are playing have a great deal to do with the effect it creates. The only way you can essentially capture it is by doing recorded phrases versus playing the parts individually.


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## The Darris (Apr 17, 2014)

Here is an example of how you would go about getting that effect. This is most likely NOT how the OP's audio example is written but the concept is the there: 







And basically you would write your melodies over this plus the rhythmic pulse. This is to just merely give you that effect and allow the chords in the piece to not sound dull with just an smooth arco sound. This is a very effective orchestrational trick that a lot of composers use.


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## Rob (Apr 18, 2014)

The Darris @ 18th April 2014 said:


> Here is an example of how you would go about getting that effect. This is most likely NOT how the OP's audio example is written but the concept is the there:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes and maybe use mixed rhythm values like


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## AC986 (Apr 18, 2014)

The strings in this work similarly. Check out the score.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtIw5AkUEsE


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## Stiltzkin (Apr 18, 2014)

Best example of this I've seen is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuQF-0jw1wU

A bit more busy than the one you mentioned, but the effect is the same. Goldenthals piece is similar orchestration to wagner's 'einzug der götter in walhall' but regardless, the whole orchestration is just perfect.


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## jamessizemore (Apr 18, 2014)

You are hearing an aleatoric technique that Shore has used extensively for the last 20 years. It allows the conductor to shape the sound on the podium using a pitch set. You can read a little bit more about this technique in Doug Adam's book, "The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films".

As the orchestrator and music programmer for the Hobbit films, I can say that it can be difficult to achieve a similar technique using samples. I've used variations of the examples above, as well as combinations of tremolos, trills, and harmonics depending on the nature of the scene. I also like to use minimalist techniques such as moving rhythms out of phase, as developed by Steve Reich and heard in the music of Don Davis and John Adams. However, that might be more of my own influences than Howard's sneaking into the music. No matter the technique, the samples are no match for 60 string players from the LPO each providing their own musical input as an organic living orchestra under the baton of Howard Shore.


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## jamessizemore (Apr 18, 2014)

You are hearing an aleatoric technique that Shore has used extensively for the last 20 years. It allows the conductor to shape the sound on the podium using a pitch set. You can read a little bit more about this technique in Doug Adam's book, "The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films".

As the orchestrator and music programmer for the Hobbit films, I can say that it can be difficult to achieve a similar technique using samples. I've used variations of the examples above, as well as combinations of tremolos, trills, and harmonics depending on the nature of the scene. I also like to use minimalist techniques such as moving rhythms out of phase, as developed by Steve Reich and heard in the music of Don Davis and John Adams. However, that might be more of my own influences than Howard's sneaking into the music. No matter the technique, the samples are no match for 60 string players from the LPO each providing their own musical input as an organic living orchestra under the baton of Howard Shore.


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## Rob (Apr 18, 2014)

jamessizemore @ 18th April 2014 said:


> You are hearing an aleatoric technique that Shore has used extensively for the last 20 years. It allows the conductor to shape the sound on the podium using a pitch set. You can read a little bit more about this technique in Doug Adam's book, "The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films".
> 
> As the orchestrator and music programmer for the Hobbit films, I can say that it can be difficult to achieve a similar technique using samples. I've used variations of the examples above, as well as combinations of tremolos, trills, and harmonics depending on the nature of the scene. I also like to use minimalist techniques such as moving rhythms out of phase, as developed by Steve Reich and heard in the music of Don Davis and John Adams. However, that might be more of my own influences than Howard's sneaking into the music. No matter the technique, the samples are no match for 60 string players from the LPO each providing their own musical input as an organic living orchestra under the baton of Howard Shore.



thank you for your explanation, James! Nice to meet you


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## ed buller (Apr 18, 2014)

Rob @ Fri Apr 18 said:


> jamessizemore @ 18th April 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > You are hearing an aleatoric technique that Shore has used extensively for the last 20 years. It allows the conductor to shape the sound on the podium using a pitch set. You can read a little bit more about this technique in Doug Adam's book, "The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films".
> > .



A most excellent book. Comes with a cd of some of the mock ups. A must have if you like the music IMHO.....

e


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## RiffWraith (Apr 18, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses guys. 



jamessizemore @ Fri Apr 18 said:


> You are hearing an aleatoric technique that Shore has used extensively for the last 20 years. It allows the conductor to shape the sound on the podium using a pitch set. You can read a little bit more about this technique in Doug Adam's book, "The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films".
> 
> As the orchestrator and music programmer for the Hobbit films, I can say that it can be difficult to achieve a similar technique using samples. I've used variations of the examples above, as well as combinations of tremolos, trills, and harmonics depending on the nature of the scene. I also like to use minimalist techniques such as moving rhythms out of phase, as developed by Steve Reich and heard in the music of Don Davis and John Adams. However, that might be more of my own influences than Howard's sneaking into the music. No matter the technique, the samples are no match for 60 string players from the LPO each providing their own musical input as an organic living orchestra under the baton of Howard Shore.



And special thanks to you James, for stepping in here and giving such a detailed explanation.

I realize this won't really be possible with samples - I am actually not trying to recreate this in my seq.; only trying to learn. And your comment of "_samples are no match for 60 string players_..." could not possibly be more true. It's too bad many people don't realize that, and think that when they have a great sounding sample lib they are really close to having the real thing.

Thanks again! :D


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## The Darris (Apr 18, 2014)

Nice penmanship Rob.

Thanks James for your valued input.


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## Rob (Apr 18, 2014)

The Darris @ 18th April 2014 said:


> Nice penmanship Rob.



:D thank you, done with my fingers on Ipad...


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 18, 2014)

I also don't think sample can do the aleatoric like real players, but you may get a very similar effect using several solo violins and/or smaller sections.
Here is a quick attempt:

https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/hobbit-sample

The intervals and dinamic in the original one may be less but the concept is the same.


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## wmctavishmusic (Apr 19, 2014)

Leandro (or anyone else), any chance you could post the notation or a piano roll or something for how you created that? I've been fascinated by this technique/thread, and have been trying to recreate this effect for a few fruitless hours now. I understand the central point here is that sample libraries can't pull this off with nearly the grace and subtlety of a real orchestra, but I'm still interested in trying to write a quick passage like this just to get my head fully around it.

I wrote to the above notation but it lacked that "randomness" as I assumed it would.
Thanks guys!


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## Rob (Apr 19, 2014)

wmctavishmusic @ 19th April 2014 said:


> Leandro (or anyone else), any chance you could post the notation or a piano roll or something for how you created that? I've been fascinated by this technique/thread, and have been trying to recreate this effect for a few fruitless hours now. I understand the central point here is that sample libraries can't pull this off with nearly the grace and subtlety of a real orchestra, but I'm still interested in trying to write a quick passage like this just to get my head fully around it.
> 
> I wrote to the above notation but it lacked that "randomness" as I assumed it would.
> Thanks guys!



Have you tried with several solo instruments as Leandro suggests? I think that's a key point...


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## wmctavishmusic (Apr 19, 2014)

Yeah, but I think it's a note-timing issue that's in my way. I can't get that "phasing" sort of effect; I've turned the grid off in my DAW and explored different arrangements between numerous solo violins/violas, but, no dice.

Googled around heavily, but couldn't really find anything. Someone would do well to make a Youtube tutorial or something on this effect. If I can grasp it, I'd happily make it! Haha

All the best
-Will


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 19, 2014)

wmctavishmusic @ Sat Apr 19 said:


> Leandro (or anyone else), any chance you could post the notation or a piano roll or something for how you created that? I've been fascinated by this technique/thread, and have been trying to recreate this effect for a few fruitless hours now. I understand the central point here is that sample libraries can't pull this off with nearly the grace and subtlety of a real orchestra, but I'm still interested in trying to write a quick passage like this just to get my head fully around it.
> 
> I wrote to the above notation but it lacked that "randomness" as I assumed it would.
> Thanks guys!


Which library are you using? I think lass is perfect for that.
First you have to turn off the legatos. As it is made by two notes in open strings those transitions are not welcome.
Second, you have to play in ramdom rhythms (but not very different each other) every solo or smaller section.
The effect comes naturaly  
Jw also used a lot this aleatoric effect in harry potter movies but all of them, as far as i remember, are much more complex than this one.
If you get the scores you can see the composer just write the desired notes in any sequence and put above "ad libitum". Each musician will play somewhat the same rhythm but none of them will hit the same note at the same time.
In samples nothing is different.
I hope it helps.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 19, 2014)

leogardini @ Sat Apr 19 said:


> I also don't think sample can do the aleatoric like real players, but you may get a very similar effect using several solo violins and/or smaller sections.
> Here is a quick attempt:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/hobbit-sample
> ...



That sounds pretty good. Not like the real thing of course, but it gets the point across pretty well. What lib did you use, and can I get you to post (or at least send me) the MIDI file?


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 19, 2014)

Used LASS sections AB, solo and adagio solo.
I did it very fast and didn't save the project.
You may get an even better result if you do that with several solos. You can use 3 or 4 times the same violin without getting any phase problem.


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## Cygnus64 (Apr 26, 2014)

As for the original post:


> The answer I got on the other forum was violins are alternating E and A (open strings) slurred rather than separate bows. I am not completely confident that's correct.


That's absolutely 100% correct. :lol: The sound you're hearing, in addition to everything that Mr. Sizemore mentioned, is due to the violins using "open" strings with a certain kind of slurred, arpeggiated stroke. Think "fiddlin". :lol: Open strings in a group can create a sound that almost sounds like harmonics.

It's one area that the sample world hasn't delved into much, AFAIK. Not only would the programming be difficult, but the usage would take someone very familiar with string playing, not just writing. I'm a pro violinist so I recognized the sound immediately.

More often, I hear the opposite in mockups: a passage where there should be open strings, and there isn't. I heard a delightful Paganini mockup for solo violin, but the lack of open strings was very funny (and only to a violinist). It was technically impossible to play the piece as they had without the use of open strings.

The open "E" has the most unique sound of them all. The other 3 strings are wound gut (usually synthetic). The open E is steel and thin. If I handed you a set of strings, you could pick out the E instantly based on that description. Anyhoo, the open E sound cuts through like a knife. If the first violins play a melody, 15 of them can use a finger, 1 can use open E, and every trained ear in the room will notice the open E. It's that kind of sound. It's also the "tuning" sound: the passage sounds somewhat like the strings are tuning. That's because strings only tune open strings of course.

My violin lesson is over. You owe me 50 bucks. :twisted:


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