# Concert Pitch mess



## WhiteNoiz (May 31, 2016)

Ok, so I've been trying to wrap my head around this but I'm still confused.

Let's say you create a *concert pitch* score in Sibelius. What do you do with octave displacing instruments? Do you write them in *sounding* pitch (concert? see below) or do you keep the octave displacement (written/transposing?)? For example, if you have a celeste and you want a sounding C5, do you notate as C4 (octave below) or C5? Or the basses. Do you expect them to play 1 octave below written?

If I toggle the "Transposing Score" button, for example, the horns and clarinets get transposed but the octave displacing instruments are not altered. So, it seems that Sibelius treats the displacement as "inherent" to the instruments. (No change in accidentals etc, which you could say could be classified as a "pure" transposing instrument/procedure)

If, again, say, I copy a flute part to a piccolo part, then it gets copied/written one octave below but it doesn't *sound* one octave above. So, if I want the playback to be correct I have to notate in *sounding* pitch (which, in theory, it could be said, is the same as *concert* pitch).

*Edit*: Sorry, it seems I was mistaken in the statement in the above paragraph, but I'm still curious.

So, it seems a split between concert and sounding pitch is in order here.

This, pretty much, follows my train of thought:
https://musescore.org/en/node/48926

"It depends on the kind of score I think, I think most 'study scores' tend to be in concert pitch (*whether it's sounding pitch or octave transposed can be a confusing mess*)"

And then, there's stuff like "octave clefs" and "8va lines" that can make this even more confusing. I understand the octave clefs are quite outdated but how would you use them? Only in concert pitch? Only in transposing? Both?

If I want the celeste to be within the normal lines, I'd prefer to write, say, a G4 as "sounding" pitch in a concert score, rather than go into the bass clef (or add an 8va line) to keep the octave displacement principle. Then, if I use 8va lines, it gets more confusing, because you have to do a double transposition, if you're keen on not adding extra ledger lines. How do you handle this?

"I think really an 'improved' concert pitch mode should have at least 3 'configurable' modes: *sounding* (everything written as sounds), *concert (everything written in C, but octave transposing instruments transpose)*, and *transposing* (everything appears as it would be written for the player, i.e. transposed and in the normal clef). The trouble with these is, how do you handle clef changes when changing between modes automatically, this would depend on the instrument and your preference which would need to be the configurable part."

Which of the three (not including 8va clefs and 8va lines) would you consider more "standard"? Would you put a note in so as not to make assumptions? According to logic, concert and sounding pitch is the same thing, but in practice, it's not...

All transposing instruments charts I've seen put pure octave displacement and addition of accidentals or anything else that isn't a pure octave in the same category. In my experience, this is not true/practical because none I've seen comment on whether the score is in concert or transposing pitch. Or better, in concert, sounding or transposing pitch. Again, in theory concert and sounding is the same, but in practice I face problems with this approach.

There's also this:
http://www.rpmseattle.com/of_note/o...ncert-scores-with-transposed-parts-in-finale/

*The current convention for scores in Concert Pitch* specifies that instruments *which transpose at the octave-only be displayed at their written* pitches*, e.g. mostly within the staff, rather than requiring numerous ledger lines.

*** Transposing? I'm getting confused there. (So, according to this, how would you notate the celeste in the example? Would the sounding pitch be the same as written or octave displaced?)

>>>
*Additionally, in modern scores*, It is understood that instruments such as the piccolo, guitar, contrabassoon and contrabass sound an octave above or below where written, and so the small reminder number 8 (or 15 if two octaves) above or below the treble or bass clef has fallen out of popular use.

_If you think about it, the convention of written pitches makes a great deal of sense; The Glockenspiel sounds two octaves (15ma) above where written; the highest written note for Glockenspiel, C above the staff, requires nine (9) ledger lines to display at concert pitch!_

*>>> So... This one says that the written pitch is the same as the sounding pitch???*

And if Sibelius assumes that this is the case, then why does it displace when copy-pasting?

This falls in line with the second approach mentioned above, which I've naturally felt more inclined to use. But I think it does make a few assumptions.

See the attached file for a visual example. If you wanted it to sound like the A in the 1st measure, would you notate it like 1, 2 (this assumes that the displacement occurs in concert pitch scores, too) or 3? 

Hopefully this makes sense? I hope I didn't do any big mistake. I actually got dizzy...

Any insight would be welcome.

PS: I'd post this in composing/orchestration but I put it here since it's kinda program specific, too.


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 1, 2016)

I recently did an arrangement for our local community orchestra - and then a baritone sax player showed up. I wrote a new part for her and came across the exact problem you note. (For reference, a bari sax is in Eb and is written just like alto sax in treble clef, but it's played an octave lower.)

When I wrote the part as non-transcribing, the notes were all far below the staff to get proper playing. That led me to start writing the part in too high a register. After a while, I added "8vb" to get things in range. Then, when I went to print the part as transcribed, the notes were way above the staff and the 8vb lines remained.

I think the right approach is to use "8vb" (or 8va) lines in the concert score and to print it that way. When printing the part, remove the 8vb/8va lines and shift everything by an octave manually. It would be nice if this were automatic, but I'm not sure how to enable it or if it's even supported.


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## resound (Jun 1, 2016)

If you are using Sibelius, no need for 8vb/8va lines. For piccolo, double bass, contrabassoon, etc. the concert score shows the "transposed" note. So double bass for instance, the score will display the written note and it will sound an octave lower. You can also choose staves that change from concert score to transposed score. For instance, for the Bari sax you can choose a stave that is bass clef in the concert score but changes to treble clef for the transposed score so that you don't have to deal with tons of ledger lines.


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 1, 2016)

From my experience with baritone sax, the concert score played the written, non-transcribed note. The center range of the instrument showed the notes well-below the staff. Maybe it was just a problem with that instrument.


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## JohnG (Jun 1, 2016)

+1 for Resound


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## resound (Jun 1, 2016)

JonFairhurst said:


> From my experience with baritone sax, the concert score played the written, non-transcribed note. The center range of the instrument showed the notes well-below the staff. Maybe it was just a problem with that instrument.


Look for Baritone Saxophone (bass clef, treble transposed)

When you choose Create -> Clef, you can also pick a sounding clef on the left and a different transposed clef on the right


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## WhiteNoiz (Jun 2, 2016)

Ok, thanks.

So, it seems the standard is the second method. And, in that context, "written" means that the octave displacement is implied. So, thinking about it again, yes, the part about the glock paints the written pitch like that. You notate say, a G4 to play a G6 (so, you don't add extra lines and take up more space or make it harder to read) etc. [And that that's true both for Concert and Transposing scores) What troubles me is, what if you actually want a G4? Do you still write 2 octaves below...? Or maybe keep the G4 and add a 15mb line? (Essentially displacing the octave but adding the octave line to keep it in a comfortable place, as you'd still add quite a few lines)

Also, care to post an example of the transposing clefs? Are they supposed to sound different? An octave clef, for example, I'm assuming should sound an octave below or above. (Alhough, in Sibelius it doesn't seem to do anything; G2 seems to still sound as G2 and not G1 when I change it to bass8 clef - That's on piano, btw) Or two, whatever. So, it seems logical to say that bass clefs and octave displacement are either-or and not complementary. Although, on a bass or glock part that's octave displaced, it could, in theory, be complementary (instead of 8va lines)*. But would, say, a normal bass clef sound different if marked as "transposing"? For me, a bass clef should always sound 2 octaves below written and a third above. (For example, an E4 would sound as G2) Doesn't make too much sense to me. But I probably misunderstood.

*(That's why I separated concert and sounding pitch, as it makes the concert octave displacement to be as much a convention as octave lines or octave clefs and not "inherent" to any instrument [obviously]; it's just commonly assumed to occur anyway and not being marked like lines or clefs)

I have a few more questions but they're not directly related to the topic and they'll clutter the current thought; maybe I'll add them later.


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## Daryl (Jun 2, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> You notate say, a G4 to play a G6 (so, you don't add extra lines and take up more space or make it harder to read) etc. [And that that's true both for Concert and Transposing scores) What troubles me is, what if you actually want a G4?


Glockenspiels can't play G4. The automatic transposition is like that to ensure that you never need more than two ledger lines up or two ledger lines down.

The thing to remember in all of this is that octave transposition instruments are not considered transposing instruments, because they are only written like that for convenience of reading.


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## resound (Jun 2, 2016)

And to add to what Daryl said, Sibelius gives you feedback about the range of instruments by using color. If you notate a note that is out of range on the instrument, it will turn bright red. If the note is playable but in a difficult range, for instance maybe for beginners, it will turn a darker red. There may be some notes here and there that Sibelius will say is out of range, but may be possible with triggers, extensions, pedals, etc. but for the most part it is a good reference.

Also, the playback is meant to always play the correct sounding note, so if it sounds right then it is right.


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## WhiteNoiz (Jun 9, 2016)

Ok guys, thanks. Maybe I'm overthinking/over-analysing it but better to be safe than sorry. 

I've also seen some custom instruments occasionally which have different characteristics and ranges than the traditional ones. For example, for some time I had the impression that celestes don't have dynamics (which made sense as to why there usually seems to be an extra mic for celeste), but I was reading about a Yamaha one that does and some things like that. So, I wasn't sure if I should add dynamics markings for celeste. I guess I should, just to be safe, but I try to keep everything as clean and minimal as possible. As far as glock is concerned, if you search for glock ranges, you'll see the common one mentioned is "G3-C6". Weird.

I'm aware of the red note thingy. It's handy. And I faced the thing with ranges, as in the sampled mock-up I had horns playing C#5 which was red but apparently possible (probably not as cleanly or loudly though). Maybe a D5, E5 or even G5 but, of course, you're getting out of the comfortable zone.

(The take-away is I should study more instrumentation/instrumentology, I guess :D)


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