# Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass (MSB)



## zolhof

Just got the email: https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/







Let that sink in for a moment:

Horn 1 in F
Horn 2 in F
Horn 3 in F
Horn 4 in F
Horns 5 + 6 in F
Horns 7 + 8 in F
Euphonium 1
Euphonium 2

Trumpet 1 in Bb
Trumpet 2 in C
Trumpet 3 in C
Trumpet 4 in Bb
Piccolo Trumpet 1 (rotary)
Piccolo Trumpet 2 (piston)
Flugelhorn

Tenor Trombone 1
Tenor Trombone 2
Tenor Trombone 3
Tenor Trombone 4
Bass Trombone 1
Bass Trombone 2
Alto Trombone 1

Cimbasso 1 in Bb
Cimbasso 2 in Bb
Cimbasso 3 in Bb
Cimbasso 4 in Bb
CC Tuba 1
CC Tuba
A few highlights:

Variable attack control
Lots of short articulations
Auto divisi and polyphonic legato
Next gen dynamics and legato
Real recorded mutes and stops
Synced crescendo and trills
Extended lower ranges
The Stage (choose your own orchestral seating)
Next gen A.R.T. (Auto Rhythm Tool)
and _"While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!"_
About 110GB with loss-less compressed audio files (approximately 220GB uncompressed).

Pardon my french, but f--k me!


----------



## Guffy

Dear lord.


----------



## Kony

Yikes! No wonder the other devs were in a rush....


----------



## erica-grace

So, save for two 2-horn patches, there are no sections???


----------



## I like music

Better get a second job


----------



## Drundfunk

Just when I thought I had everything I needed. If this is just even remotely as good as Genesis they have my money


----------



## N.Caffrey

It looks impressive


----------



## joebaggan

They've set a high bar on quality with LASS. If this is is up that standard, could be amazing.


----------



## Steve Martin

Yes, I just found this in my gmail also. Really looking forward to hearing the audio demo's.


----------



## TimCox

Having Bb and C trumpets to mix and blend would be a huge boon for me. Although it'd be nice if there was an Eb trumpet to get THE sound (like Cinesamples '90s Trumpets').


----------



## Mucusman

I've been waiting to pick up a brass library -- I was intending to pull the trigger this Black Friday week, or commit to the just-released-but-not-yet-available Cinematic Studio Brass. And now... since I'm such a big fan of Audiobro's Genesis, I may have still wait a bit longer. Only have money for one package. But man, my jaw is on the floor. (Of course, we haven't heard a single note yet, but I am so looking forward to this.)


----------



## jneebz

Wow. Can’t even deal with all of these options anymore.


----------



## Rasmus Hartvig

Whoa.


----------



## germancomponist

Kony said:


> Yikes! No wonder the other devs were in a rush....


I wish that all producers of all new brass libraries sell well. Surely everyone gave their best!


----------



## Rob Elliott

I love their stuff but thinking about building a 'divisi' as I did on their LASS divisi player (although brilliant) - my recollection of the time and effort it took me gives me cold sweats - hopefully they have streamlined this utility.


----------



## Iskra

Damn!


----------



## Kent

!!!!


----------



## zolhof

That's a lot to digest, huh? If LASS and Genesis are any indications of what to expect from MSB, get ready to have your socks blown off.

Pinging @NoamL for his quality analysis.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

I was fortunate to hear the recordings for Audiobro's MSB over the summer, and i can tell you that the captured tone is exquisite.
It blows away everything i own.


----------



## sostenuto

Hmmmm …. was so impressed with LASS quality @ 16.4GB ! Now Scoring Brass @ 110GB 

OK _ plenty of time _ back to BlkFri reality


----------



## LondonMike

Hellooooooo! How do you do? I was just seeing Cinebrass out!


----------



## Wunderhorn

Looks amazing.

At the same token I have to put on my sarcasm hat and ask if that means that LASS 3 has been bumped to be a a 2029 release?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

What a rollercoaster ride! First Trailer Lalis and now _this_?


----------



## kavinsky

I cant believe their website is still not allowing access for anyone in Russia, and its been like that from the get go (so I had to buy Lass through my israeli friend back in 2010)

how paranoid you(Andrew Keresztes) should be to do something this stupid in this day and age? I cant even view the website
it reminds me of 8dio who wouldn't sell anything to Russia and China, until you bug the life out of their support

What a bunch of nonsense


----------



## HelixK

_Estimated first quarter of 2019_

I will reserve my judgement until I hear demos and videos but thanks in advance for ruining my Black Friday.


----------



## jamwerks

TimCox said:


> Having Bb and C trumpets to mix and blend would be a huge boon for me. Although it'd be nice if there was an Eb trumpet to get THE sound (like Cinesamples '90s Trumpets').


The two Piccolo trumpets are undoubtedly E-flat trumpets.

And Wow, 28 solo Instruments!


----------



## paulwr

sostenuto said:


> Hmmmm …. was so impressed with LASS quality @ 16.4GB ! Now Scoring Brass @ 110GB
> 
> OK _ plenty of time _ back to BlkFri reality


Yea, and you are quoting the compressed sizes. Uncompressed it is 220GB I believe.... yikes! Really looking forward to this one.


----------



## HelixK

Patrick de Caumette said:


> I was fortunate to hear the recordings for Audiobro's MSB over the summer, and i can tell you that the captured tone is exquisite.
> It blows away everything i own.



Intriguing... are you referring to the actual recordings or some sort of beta instrument?

I hope it's easy and playable enough, I love the raw sound of LASS but had nightmares working with it.


----------



## Kony

erica-grace said:


> So, save for two 2-horn patches, there are no sections???


----------



## CT

Whoa.

Now, this is an announcement that makes me reconsider my whole strategy... not just for Black Friday.


----------



## constaneum

omg. 120GB !! lots of contents though

For me, it's either this, CBS or SFB


----------



## Hanu_H

OMG, that looks like a winner. And even if there is a lot of recorded articulations, it seems that the scripting is doing the heavy lifting here. There's auto divisi with polyphonic true legato, automatic short articulation switcher, even crescendos and trills are tempo synced. This really looks like a next generation brass library. I want to hear how this sounds!

-Hannes


----------



## SoNowWhat?

......
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...


----------



## HelixK

Hanu_H said:


> OMG, that looks like a winner. And even if there is a lot of recorded articulations, it seems that the scripting is doing the heavy lifting here. There's auto divisi with polyphonic true legato, automatic short articulation switcher, even crescendos and trills are tempo synced. This really looks like a next generation brass library. I want to hear how this sounds!
> 
> -Hannes



+1 is the developer active on here?


----------



## CT

Any brass library that can handle most Mahler, and still have virtual players to spare, is not to be ignored!

Looks like my days of being contently focused on a small handful of developers are coming to an end. It was only a matter of time before Alex Wallbank worked his way into my brain, but I didn't expect this one. Now I'm probably going to have LASS GAS all over again.


----------



## TimCox

jamwerks said:


> The two Piccolo trumpets are undoubtedly E-flat trumpets.



Forgive my ignorance but isn't there a difference between a piccolo trumpet and an Eb Trumpet, regardless of technical register? I was under the impression that the two are very different in construction


----------



## NoamL

zolhof said:


> Pinging @NoamL for his quality analysis.



There's not much to analyze yet is there  except my sense of shock...

The lineup is awe inspiring_._ They have gone so far above and beyond. Four individually recorded cimbassos, who ever asked for that? This is clearly aiming to be the "last brass library you ever buy." Putting all of this under the control of an auto divisi engine with polyphonic legato is going to be, not just a game changer, but a necessity for any realistic productivity. That's the main workflow bottleneck with Berlin Brass and there's "only" 11 individually recorded instruments there. The auto divisi also implies the necessity of consistent sampling & programming across all the instruments (which BB sometimes lacks). In any case, it's one more entry in the "individually recorded musicians" genre. I thought nobody else was going to try to play in the same ballpark as Berlin for years, and here AudioBro is trying to outdo them.

The price is going to be high. I would guess 1600-2400. If anyone guesses less than 1200, prepare for an Afflatus-style reality check. I don't really see this is a competitor to CSB for that reason. CSB is 400 for new entrants and 280 for those of us who own CSS.

In the end it comes down to the sound. If they captured great sounds, this will be worth it for industry professionals. That's who this product is for. Just thinking about the RAM impact of loading all 8 horns and 6 trumpets makes me shiver.


----------



## prodigalson

NoamL said:


> There's not much to analyze yet is there  except my sense of shock...
> 
> It is clearly a shot across the bow of CSB's recent announcement. They're telling all of us "hold on to your money until you see what WE can do!"
> 
> The lineup is awe inspiring_._ They have gone so far above and beyond. Four individually recorded cimbassos, who ever asked for that? This is clearly aiming to be the "last brass library you ever buy." Putting all of this under the control of an auto divisi engine with polyphonic legato is going to be, not just a game changer, but a necessity for any realistic productivity. That's the main workflow bottleneck with Berlin Brass and there's "only" 11 individually recorded instruments there. The auto divisi also implies a consistency of sampling & programming across all the instruments (which BB sometimes lacks).
> 
> The price is going to be high. Like I would guess 1600-2400. If anyone guesses less than 1200 prepare for an Afflatus-style reality check. I don't really see this is a competitor to CSB for that reason. CSB is 400 for new entrants and 280 for those of us who own CSS.
> 
> In the end it comes down to the sound. If they captured great sounds, this will be worth it for industry professionals.



Although, this is from the website

"While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!"


----------



## LamaRose

kavinsky said:


> I cant believe his website is still not allowing access for anyone in Russia, and its been like that from the get go (so I had to buy Lass through my israeli friend back in 2010)
> 
> how paranoid you should be to do something this stupid in this day and age? I cant even view the website
> it reminds me of 8dio who wouldn't sell anything to Russia and China, until you bug the life out of their support
> 
> What a bunch of nonsense



So much for _music_ breaking down barriers. Do you know if Andrew is personally aware of this?


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Patrick de Caumette said:


> I was fortunate to hear the recordings for Audiobro's MSB over the summer, and i can tell you that the captured tone is exquisite.
> It blows away everything i own.


Can you expand on that? And what do you currently have in your arsenal?


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Rob Elliott said:


> I love their stuff but thinking about building a 'divisi' as I did on their LASS divisi player (although brilliant) - my recollection of the time and effort it took me gives me cold sweats - hopefully they have streamlined this utility.



"

"Easily build your own player ensemble or use our pre-made ensembles"


----------



## SoNowWhat?

HelixK said:


> _Estimated first quarter of 2019_
> 
> I will reserve my judgement until I hear demos and videos but thanks in advance for ruining my Black Friday.


Oh thank goodness. Hadn’t seen that yet. So, some time to prepare.


----------



## kavinsky

LamaRose said:


> So much for _music_ breaking down barriers. Do you know if Andrew is personally aware of this?


Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure it was his sole decision.
He probably thinks that everyone in Russia is by default a thief wanting to pirate his precious products
So restricting access to the website is supposedly intended to solve this somehow


----------



## SoNowWhat?

NoamL said:


> Four individually recorded cimbassos, who ever asked for that?



Me! Well, I didn’t actually; but I am now 

And you may be right about pricing. I guess we’ll see soon enough. I thought Genesis was well priced so maybe things are moving on that front.


----------



## HelixK

NoamL said:


> The price is going to be high. I would guess 1600-2400. If anyone guesses less than 1200, prepare for an Afflatus-style reality check. I don't really see this is a competitor to CSB for that reason. CSB is 400 for new entrants and 280 for those of us who own CSS.



Please don't. There's always a party pooper 



prodigalson said:


> Although, this is from the website
> 
> "While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!"


----------



## LamaRose

kavinsky said:


> Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure it was his sole decision.


That sucks either way...and the fact you can't even view the site is bizarre. Thank goodness we have no competent hackers in the U.S., lol.


----------



## ptram

NoamL said:


> The price is going to be high. I would guess 1600-2400.


I see this library as a direct answer to VSL's Dimension Brass. The price will probably be in that range. Not surprised of this month's offer by VSL.

Paolo


----------



## NoamL

This behemoth is so big that you could fit LASS2.5, LADD, and Genesis into the same space on disk and still have almost enough room for a second copy of each of those libraries. A party pooper I may be! But I was close on Afflatus's price...


----------



## sostenuto

_I fall in an obscure contingent_ ….. needing badly the benefits of 'Full' Orchestral libraries to offset skill deficiencies. Would have yet gone with LASS Full 2.5, but no hint of BlkFri help. 
Even in early 2019, would yet be missing WW. Have LADD and wanted so badly to stay with Audiobro for (LASS) Strings.

Hoping for serious help soon from OT, CSS, SFA …….


----------



## Sears Poncho

Meh. Only 4 Cimbassos? I need at least 5 Cimbassos. Cimbassos.


----------



## AllanH

That was a welcome surprise. I am looking forward to the demos.


----------



## HelixK

ptram said:


> I see this library as a direct answer to VSL's Dimension Brass. The price will probably be in that range. Not surprised of this month's offer by VSL.





NoamL said:


> This behemoth is so big that you could fit LASS2.5, LADD, and Genesis into the same space on disk and still have almost enough room for a second copy of each of those libraries. A party pooper I may be! But I was close on Afflatus's price...



While I understand where you are coming from, they specifically said we will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market. Who even buys VSL in 2019? 

Developers need to adapt and I am sure they are going to consider Cinematic Series, Spitfire, 8Dio, the @AlexanderSchiborr library, i.e. their main competition at this point, like it or not. If their thing is to sell for a very limited high profile group and ignore any real profits whatsoever, I say it's case of shooting oneself in the foot.

With all due respect to Audiobro, if MSB is anywhere close to the Afflatus price, count me out.


----------



## SoundChris

Very interesting


----------



## boxheadboy50

TimCox said:


> jamwerks said:
> 
> 
> 
> The two Piccolo trumpets are undoubtedly E-flat trumpets.
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive my ignorance but isn't there a difference between a piccolo trumpet and an Eb Trumpet, regardless of technical register? I was under the impression that the two are very different in construction
Click to expand...

Yes. Piccolo trumpets are different than Eb trumpets. They’re usually pitched in Bb/A (with slides to pitch the instrument in each key), and often used in baroque music, but not unheard of in orchestral/cinematic literature.

Source: am trumpet player


----------



## NoamL

HelixK said:


> With all due respect to Audiobro, if MSB is anywhere close to the Afflatus price, count me out.



Well at the same price as Afflatus, $900 (post intro sale), this would be the sample library deal of the century. So long as it sounds good of course  That's the same price as Berlin Brass with 2.5x as many instruments individually sampled plus the technological advantages of autodivisi and polyphonic legato.


----------



## boxheadboy50

I know I posted a long rant on another thread about how impressed I am with CSB, but if this thing sounds good...holy shit, I’ll be at a loss for words.


----------



## Dave Connor

Fantastic instrument lineup. Not like you will miss having a third trombone or wish you could create a euphonium section. Same with everything else really so the concept is brilliant.

Where was it recorded? Didn’t see that.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

boxheadboy50 said:


> often used in baroque music, but not unheard of in orchestral/cinematic literature.


...and 1980s Elton John tracks.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

boxheadboy50 said:


> I know I posted a long rant on another thread about how impressed I am with CSB, but if this thing sounds good...holy shit, I’ll be at a loss for words.


snap!


----------



## boxheadboy50

SoNowWhat? said:


> ...1980s Elton John tracks.


And a Beatles tune!


----------



## CT

HelixK said:


> With all due respect to Audiobro, if MSB is anywhere close to the Afflatus price, count me out.



"Pleasantly surprised," with regards to what this library seems to be, would for me certainly not be over $1000, probably even a few hundred shy of that. Anything higher would be pretty much exactly what I'd expect a developer to charge (prohibitively, for myself and I'm sure many others) for something this in-depth.

Given the steep decrease in prices of some very big products which are still widely bought and used in the years following their release, including some of Audiobro's, can developers realistically use such high pricetags at the outset anymore? Sure, some professionals and hobbyists with too much money on their hands may grab it no matter what, but I feel like the majority of potential buyers would just wait... but what do I know about marketing?


----------



## Kony

miket said:


> I feel like the majority of potential buyers would just wait


+1 
I'll be going on an Audiobro spending spree BF 2019


----------



## axb312

I feel 450-500 USD would be a fair price here. Spitfire has shown it's possible (intro prices)....


----------



## TimCox

boxheadboy50 said:


> Yes. Piccolo trumpets are different than Eb trumpets. They’re usually pitched in Bb/A (with slides to pitch the instrument in each key), and often used in baroque music, but not unheard of in orchestral/cinematic literature.



Ok, that's what I thought, thanks for the info! I believe its a piccolo trumpet in Penny Lane correct? (I can't think of any classical examples off the top of my head, haha)


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

SoNowWhat? said:


> Can you expand on that? And what do you currently have in your arsenal?


Just about all major brass libraries were A/B'ed for me.
It wasn't even close when it came to picking up the best sounding longs, which at the time was the only thing i heard...

It's not for me to further comment, but i will put this here again:
"While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!"


----------



## SoNowWhat?

TimCox said:


> Ok, that's what I thought, thanks for the info! I believe its a piccolo trumpet in Penny Lane correct? (I can't think of any classical examples off the top of my head, haha)


Penny Lane is a classic.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

erica-grace said:


> So, save for two 2-horn patches, there are no sections???



There are multiple individual instruments, as with LASS. Ya-uh there are sections.


----------



## boxheadboy50

TimCox said:


> Ok, that's what I thought, thanks for the info! I believe its a piccolo trumpet in Penny Lane correct?


Yup, that’s the one!



TimCox said:


> (I can't think of any classical examples off the top of my head, haha)


Let’s see, Vivaldi Concerto for Two Trumpets, Torelli Sonatas and Sinfonias, Telemann Concerto...hell, there’s one at the end of Bolero!


----------



## NoamL

is the high Trumpet in D in the Rite of Spring considered a piccolo trumpet?


----------



## erica-grace

Nick Batzdorf said:


> There are multiple individual instruments, as with LASS. Ya-uh there are sections.



Oh, there are? Because save for two 2-horn patches, I didn't see any listed.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

erica-grace said:


> Oh, there are? Because save for two 2-horn patches, I didn't see any listed.


I think it’s an a la carte build your own ensemble thing (with divisi). Either completely free form or there are some ready-mades in there too (was an earlier post in thread that referenced this).


----------



## erica-grace

SoNowWhat? said:


> I think it’s an a la carte build your own ensemble thing (with divisi).




Right - that's what i thought. Build your own ensemble with divisi can be cool, but it's not recorded sections, it appears.


----------



## boxheadboy50

NoamL said:


> is the high Trumpet in D in the Rite of Spring considered a piccolo trumpet?


Yes. It’s written for a D piccolo, but usually played on a more common Bb/A picc.


----------



## Casiquire

I don't mind that it isn't recorded in sections. They have proven themselves capable of recording separate players consistently enough that they blend together beautifully like a full live section.

One thing I find interesting, it's called Modern Scoring Brass, not LA Scoring Brass. Does that indicate that it is not recorded in the same room as LASS?


----------



## boxheadboy50

erica-grace said:


> Right - that's what i thought. Build your own ensemble with divisi can be cool, but it's not recorded sections, it appears.


Per the website, “All players were recorded one-at-a-time except for Horns 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 who were recorded two-at-a-time for added variety and flexibility.”


----------



## Kony

SoNowWhat? said:


> Penny Lane is a classic.


Love the horn in For No One as well


----------



## sostenuto

Stimulating news ! …._* but*_, trying to learn to 'live in /enjoy the moment' !
Where is the Audiobro BlkFri blowout promo announcement ??
Time to celebrate your accomplishments, Andrew /Sebastian 
Luv LADD and ready for LASS Full 2.5 and Genesis …..


----------



## brek

Casiquire said:


> I don't mind that it isn't recorded in sections. They have proven themselves capable of recording separate players consistently enough that they blend together beautifully like a full live section.



My only concern is that it would be a RAM/CPU/storage hog. I'd hope there are mixed down section patches like LASS has (paving the way for MSB Lite of course )


----------



## constaneum

actually. i'm curious. with the name modern brass, does it mean it's more of modern epic brass like sound like Hans Zimmer's. Meaning we need "classical brass" which is more suitable for traditional orchestral writing ?


----------



## lucor

constaneum said:


> actually. i'm curious. with the name modern brass, does it mean it's more of modern epic brass like sound like Hans Zimmer's. Meaning we need "classical brass" which is more suitable for traditional orchestral writing ?


According to their description they recorded everything from ppp to fff (!!), so that combined with it being divisi instruments should make it viable for everything from classical to Hans Zimmer.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Given the (impressive) instrument list focusing on individual players and classic articulations, I wouldn't call it "Modern" like, for instance, Heavyocity's Forzo is modern.

What claims to be "Modern" is the library itself, with all its technical features. Looks truely next gen !


----------



## Iskra

Casiquire said:


> One thing I find interesting, it's called Modern Scoring Brass, not LA Scoring Brass. Does that indicate that it is not recorded in the same room as LASS?


That indicates me it is not recorded in the same city.


----------



## Saxer

Still a quarter of a year to wait... but this announcement will probably block a lot of brass sales until then.
In full use this library alone could utilize a slave to the full. 
The instrument list is impressive. Especially for concert band writers there's no real alternative right now.


----------



## constaneum

Saxer said:


> Still a quarter of a year to wait... but this announcement will probably block a lot of brass sales until then.
> In full use this library alone could utilize a slave to the full.
> The instrument list is impressive. Especially for concert band writers there's no real alternative right now.



only if they manage to come out a walkthrough by early next month to hold back other sales. because we're only reading the technical but not hearing any demos or seeing any walkthrough to be convinced.


----------



## Jdiggity1

It's not gonna stop me getting CSB. Walkthrough or no walkthrough


But that doesn't mean i won't get this also...


----------



## NoamL

Yeah. At this point it will take some amazing demos from other companies to keep me from pulling the trigger on CSB. That's not a certainty yet either, but it's probable after the walkthrough. The convenience of having everything working with CSS, recorded in the same room, with the known programming qualities of CS series, plus reasonable RAM loads and a great discount price, it kind of all adds up to be irresistible!


----------



## SoNowWhat?

NoamL said:


> Yeah. At this point it will take some amazing demos from other companies to keep me from pulling the trigger on CSB. That's not a certainty yet either, but it's probable after the walkthrough. The convenience of having everything working with CSS, recorded in the same room, with the known programming qualities of CS series, plus reasonable RAM loads and a great discount price, it kind of all adds up to be irresistible!


 I see what you mean and have been thinking similar thoughts. Already thinking ahead and wondering if Audiobro will do a big band expansion with those sorts of techniques and articulations as an expansion (like con-sord in LASS).


----------



## Jaap

Specs look really really good! Really looking forward to this!


----------



## ptram

HelixK said:


> they specifically said we will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market. Who even buys VSL in 2019?
> Developers need to adapt and I am sure they are going to consider Cinematic Series, Spitfire, 8Dio, the @AlexanderSchiborr library, i.e. their main competition at this point


The level of detail and required resources seem to appeal to professionals, more than occasional users. Someone who needs to write for separate parts, not in sections. But they can anyway offer some "simplified" patches, and make it accessible to a wider audience.

Paolo


----------



## Eptesicus

On paper it sounds amazing. All that matters really though is how it sounds...

I hope they release some demos soon!


----------



## Raphioli

Wow.... its like this month is the month of brass libraries...
Looking forward to the demos!


----------



## Nicola74

It looks gourgeous!! Demo please


----------



## HelixK

ptram said:


> The level of detail and required resources seem to appeal to professionals, more than occasional users. Someone who needs to write for separate parts, not in sections. But they can anyway offer some "simplified" patches, and make it accessible to a wider audience.



I could not disagree more. If we're talking about professional, high profile composers, CSB is the most appealing library currently available at the market. Why? Ease of use. See Noam's post above. Do you think James Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer or any of the top trailer guys care about separate parts or how accurate they can shape the attack of 1 in 1.000.000.000 staccatissimo notes of an ostinato line? No, they want "simplified" patches that simply work and get the job done. 

Working composers only care about the end result and how fast they can get from point A to B. It's dog eat dog out there. Don't underestimate the power of simplicity. Of all current brass libraries in the market right now, CSB is the one that can be tagged as a true game changer and "next-gen" because it offers the working composer the best of all worlds: workflow, sound, price. 

Things have changed, we're way past 2005 and Symphonic Cube monopoly. In 2019 even the small developer can change the game. Look at Performance Samples. Want to talk big and bold? Look at Big Bad Horns. Individual parts, a ridiculously large list of articulations, 449€. That's adapting and making your way into the templates of a wider audience.


----------



## Kony

HelixK said:


> I could not disagree more. If we're talking about professional, high profile composers, CSB is the most appealing library currently available at the market. Why? Ease of use. See Noam's post above. Do you think James Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer or any of the top trailer guys care about separate parts or how accurate they can shape the attack of 1 in 1.000.000.000 staccatissimo notes of an ostinato line? No, they want "simplified" patches that simply work and get the job done.
> 
> Working composers only care about the end result and how fast they can get from point A to B. It's dog eat dog out there. Don't underestimate the power of simplicity. Of all current brass libraries in the market right now, CSB is the one that can be tagged as a true game changer and "next-gen" because it offers the working composer the best of all worlds: workflow, sound, price.
> 
> Things have changed, we're way past 2005 and Symphonic Cube monopoly. In 2019 even the small developer can change the game. Look at Performance Samples. Want to talk big and bold? Look at Big Bad Horns. Individual parts, a ridiculously large list of articulations, 449€. That's adapting and making your way into the templates of a wider audience.


Nicely put


----------



## jamwerks

I love the philosophy behind this. BB was a great idea, but the playability lacks for me. The auto-divisi should make it just as easy as a normal library. Having then Woodwinds done the same way will be a real treat.

I can't imagine there not being E-flat trumpets in his line-up, and not sure of the utility of having the "octavino" B-flat trumpets, that to my ears have a distinctly baroque connotation. The modern composers (non cinema) that I know of use E-flat trps and call them "Petits Trompettes". That said, I'm not a brass player...

One reason for them to throw this out and get us talking is to test the market for pricing. The size actually seems small considering there's 28 soloists. So this version may just be the basic arts & half of the final product. Anyway I doubt we'll have mutes & extended arts right at the beginning.

They may sell this at $999 to get the most folks on-board for the final version at double the price.

We'll see what a future Synchron Brass plays and sounds like. I was thinking of Spitfire might also do a VSL-type, top tier line. Interesting times!


----------



## Raphioli

jamwerks said:


> One reason for them to throw this out and get us talking is to test the market for pricing.






> While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!



I saw this on their website and by this, I'm guessing it will be around the same as Berlin Brass or lower, since it says we'll be "pleasantly surprised".


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Actually, this is going to be an instant buy for me. I love LASS, it's my go-to library. And, helloooo, no other company has auto-divisi. This is a killer feature for brass. I'm so happy that they recorded individual instruments! 

Interesting for me is how the ensemble sounds when combining the individual instruments. It's not easy to get this ensemble sound, there is much going on within.

Concerning the name... I think it's not recorded in LA, but in Budapest like they did with Genesis Choir and NI Symphony Strings.


----------



## ptram

HelixK said:


> Do you think James Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer or any of the top trailer guys care about separate parts or how accurate they can shape the attack of 1 in 1.000.000.000 staccatissimo notes of an ostinato line?


I don't know about JNH (who still likes to orchestrate with pencil and paper), but watching at the list of articulations in Spitfire's Hans Zimmer Strings, I would suspect HZ is interested in separate parts writing and variety of articulations. This new library from Audiobro, with separate instruments and no sampled sections, seems to appeal to that kind of composer.

Paolo


----------



## ptram

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Concerning the name... I think it's not recorded in LA, but in Budapest like they did with Genesis Choir and NI Symphony Strings.


I guess the name of LASS refers to the preferred use in hollywoodian scores. Now, is "modern" referring to fresher independent movie scoring, contemporary concert music, or trap music?

Paolo


----------



## HelixK

ptram said:


> I don't know about JNH (who still likes to orchestrate with pencil and paper)



As far as I'm aware, the bulk of JNH's work, including orchestrations, is done straight into Cubase. I've seen him going on record more than once in saying that studios expect him to deliver the most realistic demos, in the narrowest window of time possible. If you dig through youtube you will find the quotes.

The main title for Fantastic Beasts And Where To Find Them was done 41 times, including polished mockups.



Do you believe James and his team have the luxury of going through bloated libraries? There's no surprise why you find Spitfire libraries in virtually every high profile composer template. They sound amazing out of the box and are a delight to use. Cinematic Studio Brass is a big improvement in sound, workflow and price. That is why CSB will sell like hotcakes.



ptram said:


> watching at the list of articulations in Spitfire's Hans Zimmer Strings, I would suspect HZ is interested in separate parts writing and variety of articulations. This new library from Audiobro, with separate instruments and no sampled sections, seems to appeal to that kind of composer.



HZS is not really comparable to CMB, as it's far from a traditional orchestral library and of all composers to talk about part writing, you chose Hans Zimmer?  Don't want to start a debate, I'm a big fan for reasons that go beyond his skills (or lack of) as an orchestrator, but I'm also willing to learn, so please educate me of any scores he actually did any complex brass orchestrations by himself. I don't see the appeal of CMB to a composer like Hans. Or were you talking about his team?

If you prefer we can have this conversation privately as I don't to derail the thread by going too far off-topic.


----------



## brenneisen

Casiquire said:


> they blend together beautifully like a full live section.



nah, they don't. It's more passable with strings, but nothing excites a room like brass playing together.


----------



## boxheadboy50

Saxer said:


> The instrument list is impressive. Especially for concert band writers there's no real alternative right now.


THIS


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

HelixK said:


> Do you think James Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer or any of the top trailer guys care about separate parts or how accurate they can shape the attack of 1 in 1.000.000.000 staccatissimo notes of an ostinato line?



I may have missed the tone of this line, but listen to King Kong and tell me JNH doesn't care about intricate, detailed brass writing...


----------



## Rob Elliott

Craig Sharmat said:


> "
> 
> "Easily build your own player ensemble or use our pre-made ensembles"


Thanks Craig. I am going to take Andrew on his EASILY word. . Should be an outstanding Brass library.


----------



## NoamL

HelixK said:


> I could not disagree more. If we're talking about professional, high profile composers, CSB is the most appealing library currently available at the market. Why? Ease of use. See Noam's post above.



I think the level aimed at by professionals differs by how much they care about the mockup stage. I have assisted several composers, some of them are very tech savvy, others concern themselves less with this VI stuff. Overall, 3 factors are underlined for "pro" working composers that I've had the pleasure of meeting:

1. They don't care about price the way this forum does. If it's good enough, they'll buy a $2k sample library.

2. They don't care about RAM loads. They have support computers out the wazoo.

3. They generally don't leave orchestral samples in their final scores. It all gets replaced by live recording sessions, or as much as they can afford.

I think MSB will be an interesting tool for pro composers. From what I can see on the website, it looks like the instruments are grouped in patches - so Horns 1, 3, 5, etc are in one patch and the auto-divisi handles splitting up the notes. This makes it a lot easier to work with than having 30 instrument tracks.

I think if any company is content to only service pro composers and price out most of the market, it's AudioBro.

If anything keeps pro composers from buying this, it won't be the allure of less expensive options, it'll be that the less expensive options sound better  CSS and Spitfire are both very popular (for strings) among the working pros I've met.


----------



## tabulius

It's too bad Orchestral Tools doesn't allow resales. I would definitely sell the Berlin Brass to replace with this and Cinematic Studio Brass. My computer's ram just can't take the Berlin Brass, but this too might be high on ram.


----------



## ptram

NoamL said:


> They don't care about price the way this forum does. If it's good enough, they'll buy a $2k sample library.


Yet, Stravinsky would have tried to find a deal!

Paolo


----------



## Casiquire

constaneum said:


> actually. i'm curious. with the name modern brass, does it mean it's more of modern epic brass like sound like Hans Zimmer's. Meaning we need "classical brass" which is more suitable for traditional orchestral writing ?



From Audiobro, I highly doubt that it would only be suited for trailer-style brass.


----------



## Lassi Tani

Yes! This answers to all my wishes for a brass library. I don't care about the price. If it's great and fullfills my needs for writing brass music, the price is not important, and I'm not a pro composer . Hopefully we'll hear soon, how this sounds.

This seems to help writing complex passages. When I'm using other libraries, the project will be frankenstein, tons of articulations. :D

Only question: Was this the brass library that Alexander hinted?


----------



## Casiquire

brenneisen said:


> nah, they don't. It's more passable with strings, but nothing excites a room like brass playing together.



Seems premature to say they don't, the library isn't even out yet


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

It's funny, but these days, when I see these omnipotent libraries that are supposed to be "the mother of...", I feel kinda bummed out. I don't really want all the options and the patches and the complexity and the schwillions of gigs. Nowadays I find it very liberating to work with simpler, more lightweight libraries with a great basic sound.


----------



## Dave Connor

For many of us who do both mockups for film (which will eventually be done with a live orchestra) and also original compositions (which will remain in the sample realm): this is exactly the kind of library we want. Writing a triad in trombones and using the same solo bone on all three parts is a type of agony. Same as using a 2 trombone patch on each part (totaling 6) because they ‘sound better’ than the solo bone is another type of agony. Having mostly recorded ‘sections’ as your sample-base another big problem in doing _anything _that is not thunderingly epic. A song for a small orchestra as in a Pop or Broadway arrangement (say for a scene within a film or for the real thing) that requires a smaller or more delicate sound? Don’t need a 12 Fr. Horn patch thank you.

The difference is that if you need big layered patches you have that option. (How long does it take to put three instruments on the same midi channel?) If you don’t need those layered patches every time you sit down to write, this library is exactly what you’ve been waiting for. If it’s of a uniform quality and flexibility - it will sell like hot cakes.


----------



## HelixK

I've seen several high profile composers, not only JNH, saying that studios expect them to deliver the most realistic demos possible, so studios can justify the budget for a real orchestra. The turnaround time never decreases. Composers and assistants need to be faster than ever and that's the appeal of CSB as I see it.



NoamL said:


> I think if any company is content to only service pro composers and price out most of the market, it's AudioBro.



I respectfully disagree. Audiobro is a business first and foremost. Let poor Andrew have a piece of the cake too. You keep coming back to the price. Are you on a mission to alienate MSB potential buyers so you and your pro composer friends can have all the goodies to yourselves?  The way you keep suggesting Audiobro will price MSB at exorbitant levels and that they have no interest in going after a larger share of the market is a bit suspicious, to say the least. Happy to be proven wrong. 

I truly believe that developers who won't adapt to the new realities of the market have their days counted. It's not cheap to produce a sample library as detailed as MSB. I'm certain Audiobro is interested in profiting instead of only servicing pro composers. It's about competitive price monitoring and the impact on their business. Keyword here: business, my friend.



NoamL said:


> If anything keeps pro composers from buying this, it won't be the allure of less expensive options, it'll be that the less expensive options sound better



100% with you on this. Let's wait and see what the other developers have prepared. Schibor is a very talented young man and I bet he's involved in something truly special.



NoamL said:


> CSS and Spitfire are both very popular (for strings) among the working pros I've met.



Yes, just like I said in my previous reply. CSS, Spitfire and I also see a lot of ProjectSAM in friends' workstations. They are also very resistant to big template changes.


----------



## HelixK

Richard Wilkinson said:


> I may have missed the tone of this line, but listen to King Kong and tell me JNH doesn't care about intricate, detailed brass writing...



James is one of the most prolific film composers of our time and I would never suggest that he does not care about intricate, detailed brass writing. I am only saying that, when under a tight schedule on a routine basis, he and his team need to work fast and deliver convincing mockups.


----------



## Saxer

For me writing with a mix of solos and á2 and ensemble patches is no time saver at all compared to a clean instrument per track approach. Especially when those per-track instruments are responding to midi CCs, velocity and key switches the same way. For a pad you play the top line with CCs, copy the track to the other instruments and edit the notes. The result is the mockup and the final orchestration. If you don't work with a team that includes the composer, a mockup maker and an orchestrator the instrument per track approach can be more efficient.


----------



## Guy Rowland

I think one of the big selling points of this library is it allows both detailed intricate writing and also be very quick to use with all their clever scripting. So the point about what pros - as if they are one homogenous group - do or don't want is perhaps moot, if it delivers on this promise - should be good for a hack like me or, ya know, someone with talent.


----------



## TimCox

Dave Connor said:


> For many of us who do both mockups for film (which will eventually be done with a live orchestra) and also original compositions (which will remain in the sample realm): this is exactly the kind of library we want. Writing a triad in trombones and using the same solo bone on all three parts is a type of agony. Same for using a 2 trombone patch on each part (totaling 6) because they ‘sound better’ than the solo bone is another type of agony. Having mostly recorded ‘sections’ as your sample-base another big problem in doing _anything _that is not thunderingly epic. A song for a small orchestra as in Pop or Broadway arrangement (say for a scene within a film or for the real thing) that requires a smaller or more delicate sound? Don’t need a 12 Fr. Horn patch thank you.
> 
> The difference is that if you need big layered patches you have that option. (How long does it take to put three instruments on the same midi channel?) If you don’t need those layered patches every time you sit down to write, this library is exactly what you’ve been waiting for. If it’s of a uniform quality and flexibility - it will sell like hot cakes.



Yes yes yes yes. That's why I like BB so much is my triads are split between players, different instruments, timbre, etc. My only real gripe with BB is that the ff(fff?) dynamics don't match with ANY of the articulations which is frustrating. Hopefully MSB captures this how I want.

I'd personally love to have a keyswitch to shift between normal and brassy. Sometimes I want loud brass that isn't _brassy_


----------



## JohannesR

TimCox said:


> Yes yes yes yes. That's why I like BB so much is my triads are split between players, different instruments, timbre, etc. My only real gripe with BB is that the ff(fff?) dynamics don't match with ANY of the articulations which is frustrating. Hopefully MSB captures this how I want.
> 
> I'd personally love to have a keyswitch to shift between normal and brassy. Sometimes I want loud brass that isn't _brassy_



Is BB=Berlin Brass? Because if it is, I don’t hear any ff dynamic in any of the single instruments. It’s very limited in it’s dynamic range in my ears. Makes the whole library quite limited and frustrating in my opinion. I have high hopes for MSB, if they nail a wide dynamic range and polyphonic legato/auto arranger, it’ll become my main library for sure!


----------



## maestro2be

I am very excited about this release. I see this as a VSL Dimension Brass concept taken to an even higher level. I always struggled with the overall sound of the horns in Dimension Brass and hoping this library doesn't disappoint.

I personally feel that even today, LASS has an incredible legato transition compared to many libraries. I just find it plays wonderful in real time without any effort. The sound is rather a matter of opinion, but the shorts and those legatos sound great to my ears and are very playable. I am excited to see what Andrew has up his sleeves for us on LASS 3 as well. Maybe some new strings or articulations?

I definitely see myself getting this brass library regardless of cost on day of release. I had no idea this was coming but you can definitely count me in. I planned to wait for Synchron Brass but the wound is still very deep from the strings.

If you haven't worked with the wonderful people at Audiobro, or taken the time to get to know them you're missing out. They are true gents and you will be hard pressed to find nicer people than Andrew and Sebastian. Not to mention, just look at how long Andrew has supported and updated the LASS line. I do not own Genesis, but it appears to be a very big step in the right direction and it will be interesting to see how much of that futuristic look and feel will be in this library. I may need to pickup that library on this sale as well.

At the end of the day though, only two things will matter most to me. What does the brass sound like, followed by how does it play in real time?

Waiting to hear/see some walk through demos!


----------



## gjelul

This is great news! Really like what AudioBro does, they got it right, focus on the quality of the product and let it speak for its self.

I already have a few brass libraries. I was thinking to also get the Berlin Brass this coming Black Friday as I do like the way it sounds. However, now, I will wait for MSB to come out and then decide. From what I read, this will be the Brass library to beat. And if the pricing is right, it will be a no brainer. Really interested in demos and walkthroughs...

I'm also hoping that LASS 3 will reveal itself somehow


----------



## N.Caffrey

@AlexanderSchiborr maybe someone already asked you, but do you know roughly when we'll be able to hear a demo?


----------



## HelixK

gjelul said:


> This is great news! Really like what AudioBro does, they got it right, focus on the quality of the product and let it speak for its self.
> 
> I already have a few brass libraries. I was thinking to also get the Berlin Brass this coming Black Friday as I do like the way it sounds. However, now, I will wait for MSB to come out and then decide. From what I read, this will be the Brass library to beat. And if the pricing is right, it will be a no brainer. Really interested in demos and walkthroughs...
> 
> I'm also hoping that LASS 3 will reveal itself somehow



LASS 3 is probably next in line:

We will be announcing a new product very very soon (it's in beta... and not strings) and it will reveal a lot about Audiobro's future direction insofar as approach to patches and standardization of many things. It will feature a new engine (still Kontakt but with 100% new and better scripts and a completely new re-design with new features and improved algorithms).* I bring this up because future updates of LASS will be based on this new and highly intuitive and powerful engine. And not only will it have the new functionally of the new engine, but it will have new sample content etc.*

We've been working very hard on this because we needed an engine that could satisfy any type of orchestral library we threw at it without redesigning and re-programming it. 

Thanks for your patience and I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Andrew K
audiobro


----------



## erica-grace

_it's not strings_

*LASS 3 is probably next in line

 
*


----------



## HelixK

Someone clearly skipped reading comprehension classes...


----------



## HelixK

erica-grace said:


> _it's not strings_
> 
> *LASS 3 is probably next in line
> 
> *



I am quoting you so it's registered for posterity


----------



## erica-grace

HelixK said:


> Someone clearly skipped reading comprehension classes...



Is that a bad thing?


----------



## Kony

HelixK said:


> I am quoting you so it's registered for posterity


lol


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

my God, they got 4 Cimbassi pitched in Bb? Incredible.... I didn't even think that many existed in one part of the hemisphere. (as a note, Cimbassi pitched in F are very common - but the Bb variant is basically a Contrabass Cimbasso. And it is a rare bird.)

edit: just reading all the sample content... this is going to be stellar. Multiple round robins on sustains within each different type of attacks... I am drooling.


----------



## TimCox

JohannesR said:


> s BB=Berlin Brass? Because if it is, I don’t hear any ff dynamic in any of the single instruments. It’s very limited in it’s dynamic range in my ears. Makes the whole library quite limited and frustrating in my opinion. I have high hopes for MSB, if they nail a wide dynamic range and polyphonic legato/auto arranger, it’ll become my main library for sure!



I realize I left out the word legato. None of the _legato_ patches go above forte. The shorts and marcatos can do fortissimo (just barely for marcatos though).


----------



## HelixK

Karl Feuerstake said:


> my God, they got 4 Cimbassi pitched in Bb? Incredible.... I didn't even think that many existed in one part of the hemisphere. (as a note, Cimbassi pitched in F are very common - but the Bb variant is basically a Contrabass Cimbasso. And it is a rare bird.)
> 
> edit: just reading all the sample content... this is going to be stellar. Multiple round robins on sustains within each different type of attacks... I am drooling.



I was also pleasantly surprised to see the Bb variant in that list. I feel the Bb cimbasso is best suited to soundtracks and I'm unaware of other libraries that have one, let alone four of them sampled.

Andrew is a wizard


----------



## Casiquire

erica-grace said:


> _it's not strings_
> 
> *LASS 3 is probably next in line
> 
> *



Yes...it's MSB. Then next in line is LASS. Makes plenty of sense to me!


----------



## Simon Ravn

Hmmm no ensembles, except for two horns? That sounds limiting. I mean, yes, they are there, made from stacked solo performers. But that most likely won't work like a recorded ensemble.


----------



## artmanjam

Simon Ravn said:


> Hmmm no ensembles, except for two horns? That sounds limiting. But that most likely won't work like a recorded ensemble.



This is the infinite debate. Whatever if the 4 horns are divisi, we'll never get an 'all together recorded' thing. So except for having some obliged monolithic horns or bones line, having separate instruments is great. That's why I bought the Vsl Dim Brass a couple of years ago. Not that happy with the horns sound and the low brass uncomplete range btw. So I'll wait for hearing the MSB. Lass is already the most expressive strings I know (don't know all libraries...). I always use Lass, often layered with EW Diamond.


----------



## gjelul

HelixK said:


> LASS 3 is probably next in line:
> 
> We will be announcing a new product very very soon (it's in beta... and not strings) and it will reveal a lot about Audiobro's future direction insofar as approach to patches and standardization of many things. It will feature a new engine (still Kontakt but with 100% new and better scripts and a completely new re-design with new features and improved algorithms).* I bring this up because future updates of LASS will be based on this new and highly intuitive and powerful engine. And not only will it have the new functionally of the new engine, but it will have new sample content etc.*
> 
> We've been working very hard on this because we needed an engine that could satisfy any type of orchestral library we threw at it without redesigning and re-programming it.
> 
> Thanks for your patience and I hope this helps.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew K
> audiobro




Thank you for the update, Andrew!

Looks like the new and improved engine will be put to its paces very soon... in an orchestral way 
MSB, LASS 3 to follow, a new product (not strings) to be announced very very soon...

Always thought that AudioBro should have the orchestra complete - I'm looking forward to that if it happens


----------



## jamwerks

I'm very curious to hear what kind of hall they decided to use; how big, how reverberant?

How about a couple of pictures?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

gjelul said:


> Thank you for the update, Andrew!
> 
> Looks like the new and improved engine will be put to its paces very soon... in an orchestral way
> MSB, LASS 3 to follow, a new product (not strings) to be announced very very soon...
> 
> Always thought that AudioBro should have the orchestra complete - I'm looking forward to that if it happens



As far as I remember: The quote from Andrew is old, way before they released Genesis. The new engine mentioned was introduced with Genesis.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

jamwerks said:


> I'm very curious to hear what kind of hall they decided to use; how big, how reverberant?
> 
> How about a couple of pictures?



I think it's in Budabest, but it's just a guess. Genesis was also recorded there.


----------



## Pablocrespo

gjelul said:


> Thank you for the update, Andrew!
> 
> Looks like the new and improved engine will be put to its paces very soon... in an orchestral way
> MSB, LASS 3 to follow, a new product (not strings) to be announced very very soon...
> 
> Always thought that AudioBro should have the orchestra complete - I'm looking forward to that if it happens


Yeah. i think that product was genesys


----------



## gjelul

Pablocrespo said:


> Yeah. i think that product was genesys



You're probably right.

I think it's time for some turkey and let the developers do their thing -- tough to keep up with everything and everyones product timelines


----------



## JohannesR

jamwerks said:


> I'm very curious to hear what kind of hall they decided to use; how big, how reverberant?
> 
> How about a couple of pictures?


This!

Audiobro are truly excellent people with innovative scripting and great ideas! My main concern is how the library sounds. Although I love the flexibility, the record quality of LASS and LADD are not up to par in my book. This text below makes me a little worried about how it will sound sonically. I probably prefer the library recorded in situ, but I’d love if MSB convinces me otherwise:

“


Put your players where you want them. Standard orchestral seating, antiphonal brass choirs, close-miced tight dry sound, whatever your production calls for. 52 of our eclectic custom created spaces run the gamut from small dry rooms to huge churches and effect. Plus 13 new additional spaces have been designed specifically for Brass.”


----------



## rottoy

JohannesR said:


> This!
> 
> Audiobro are truly excellent people with innovative scripting and great ideas! My main concern is how the library sounds. Although I love the flexibility, the record quality of LASS and LADD are not up to par in my book. This text below makes me a little worried about how it will sound sonically. I probably prefer the library recorded in situ, but I’d love if MSB convinces me otherwise:
> 
> “
> 
> 
> Put your players where you want them. Standard orchestral seating, antiphonal brass choirs, close-miced tight dry sound, whatever your production calls for. 52 of our eclectic custom created spaces run the gamut from small dry rooms to huge churches and effect. Plus 13 new additional spaces have been designed specifically for Brass.”


That does stir up some worry for me. IF it's recorded bone dry and not in situ it will suck most of the life out of the brass (IMO). It will be flexible, sure, but what's the point of recording orchestral brass if it doesn't get to excite a room?
A million customized IR's won't remedy that. But I hope I'm wrong!


----------



## Kony

JohannesR said:


> Put your players where you want them. Standard orchestral seating, antiphonal brass choirs, close-miced tight dry sound, whatever your production calls for. 52 of our eclectic custom created spaces run the gamut from small dry rooms to huge churches and effect. Plus 13 new additional spaces have been designed specifically for Brass.”


I think this is a good thing and allows for flexibility for modern work. In situ has its benefits but is limiting in my opinion


----------



## Kony

rottoy said:


> what's the point of recording orchestral brass if it doesn't get to excite a room?


I think we'll find out how it sounds soon


----------



## JohannesR

Kony said:


> I think this is a good thing and allows for flexibility for modern work. In situ has its benefits but is limiting in my opinion


I love flexibility, but the dry+convolution approach hasn’t proved to be the best solution sonically. But I would be very happy to be wrong in this case.

Would be awesome if MSB turns out to be the be-all and end-all of brass libraries. I know I will like auto arranger, the individual instrument approach, and the wide dynamics - I’m praying for it to sound good too!


----------



## Casiquire

JohannesR said:


> I love flexibility, but the dry+convolution approach hasn’t proved to be the best solution sonically. But I would be very happy to be wrong in this case.
> 
> Would be awesome if MSB turns out to be the be-all and end-all of brass libraries. I know I will like auto arranger, the individual instrument approach, and the wide dynamics - I’m praying for it to sound good too!



I hear the concerns, but to me the Audiobro team has earned a level of trust. I'll listen to demos and walkthroughs but I'm fairly optimistic


----------



## ScoreFace

JohannesR said:


> Would be awesome if MSB turns out to be the be-all and end-all of brass libraries. I know I will like auto arranger(...)



I wonder how an auto arranger would be like for brass ensemble. Is there already info about their plans?


----------



## HelixK

I am intrigued by "The Stage" and not so sure if I understood how they are going to do it:

"Put your players where you want them. Standard orchestral seating, antiphonal brass choirs, close-miced tight dry sound, whatever your production calls for. 52 of our eclectic custom created spaces run the gamut from small dry rooms to huge churches and effect. Plus 13 new additional spaces have been designed specifically for Brass."

Infinite Brass has a similar feature but as far as I know, Aaron only did dry recordings and used simulations for rooms.

CMB has 5 microphones (Close, Decca LR, Decca C, Surround and Full Mix), so The Stage will only work with close microphones and IRs, overriding the other 4 mics? Or CMB will also be bone dry and the others mics are "preset mixes" based on the dry recordings, like Infinite Brass?


----------



## Casiquire

HelixK said:


> I am intrigued by "The Stage" and not so sure if I understood how they are going to do it:
> 
> "Put your players where you want them. Standard orchestral seating, antiphonal brass choirs, close-miced tight dry sound, whatever your production calls for. 52 of our eclectic custom created spaces run the gamut from small dry rooms to huge churches and effect. Plus 13 new additional spaces have been designed specifically for Brass."



It will be like Genesis, and like an updated version of LASS's Stage feature. It's similar in practice to MIR or VSS.


----------



## JohannesR

Casiquire said:


> I hear the concerns, but to me the Audiobro team has earned a level of trust. I'll listen to demos and walkthroughs but I'm fairly optimistic


Audiobro has earned a high level of trust indeed - on all areas, but sonically maybe not all the way to the top! I have LASS and LADD, haven’t bought Genesis yet.

I’m optimistic too, but slightly concerned with the dry recording approach


----------



## jamwerks

I see the usefulness of the stage for strings and choir that you might want to move around depending on the mix (inverting Celli & 2nd Violins). But Brass & Winds don't need this. If you want the horns on the right just invert the samples. If you want them in the center, use close and ortf's and that works perfectly.

No need to have done that here. It's kind of too bad because the realness of the room is just diminished...


----------



## HelixK

Casiquire said:


> It will be like Genesis, and like an updated version of LASS's Stage feature. It's similar in practice to MIR or VSS.



Thanks Casiquire. I just watched the Genesis videos and I'm still not sure if CMB will have dry recordings only.

Why would I use The Stage with a Decca mic that already has room information baked in? Wouldn't that be the same as using Spitfire Brass tree or ambient mics inside VSS?

That's why I'm wondering if the four CMB room mics are in fact simulated mixes. Unless they've done some sort of voodoo and made real room recordings work with The Stage without introducing imaging issues.

In any case, what they've accomplished within a single instance of Kontakt is remarkable, the Genesis spatialization works surprisingly well. Not sure if I'd ever use the mixer effects when I have Soundtoys. Same with 8Dio's Chaos engine that, at least to me, sounds like a big waste of code.


----------



## dxmachina

You absolutely have to record a properly mic'd sound in a great room (we like scoring stages). Dry+Convolution is sometimes useful, but not sufficient alone. You need (IMO) both a legit recorded sound - and lots of additional flexibility on top of that. As a guy who has played brass for 25-years now, we get seriously shuffled around a room (like you think these instruments aren't heavy!) Stage can be very useful... but 100% optional. 

Regards,
Sebastian


----------



## Guy Rowland

On top of Sebastian's reply, often people seem to get confused between a good room and a good ambient room. LASS and Hollywood Strings are two examples of rooms which have plenty of life and space in them, but are not ambient spaces like Sony or Air. These rooms are also very different to the likes of VSL's silent stage. In crude terms, they have the ER but not so much the tail.

IMO I think these kinds of spaces are currently the sweet spot for sampling, avoiding the many problems that come with ambient halls or the lack of size or heft you get in a sterile environment. I know others will disagree, but there you go.

From what we know about this library this far - and from Sebastian's comments - I think this is the kind of hall that MSB is recorded in. It would be very difficult to customise spaces if it were recorded in an ambient hall, but perfectly possible in these Goldilocks rooms.


----------



## markleake

Plus this "Goldilocks" room approach seems to be what they did for Genesis already, so we know AudioBro can make it work.


----------



## trumpoz

jamwerks said:


> The two Piccolo trumpets are undoubtedly E-flat trumpets.
> 
> And Wow, 28 solo Instruments!


Piccolo trumpet is not in Eb. Piccolo is in high A or Bb pitched an octave above a regular Bb trumpet.


----------



## HelixK

dxmachina said:


> You need (IMO) both a legit recorded sound - and lots of additional flexibility on top of that. As a guy who has played brass for 25-years now, we get seriously shuffled around a room (like you think these instruments aren't heavy!) Stage can be very useful... but 100% optional.



So glad to hear that, I like your vision for MSB. Great to know that you are watching 

When can we expect demos or at least a price? With Cinematic Studio Brass, Spitfire Studio Brass, Performance Samples Brass and others just around the corner, I would be very grateful if you could give us something more than words to help in the decision making process.


----------



## HelixK

Guy Rowland said:


> On top of Sebastian's reply, often people seem to get confused between a good room and a good ambient room. LASS and Hollywood Strings are two examples of rooms which have plenty of life and space in them, but are not ambient spaces like Sony or Air. These rooms are also very different to the likes of VSL's silent stage. In crude terms, they have the ER but not so much the tail.
> 
> IMO I think these kinds of spaces are currently the sweet spot for sampling, avoiding the many problems that come with ambient halls or the lack of size or heft you get in a sterile environment. I know others will disagree, but there you go.
> 
> From what we know about this library this far - and from Sebastian's comments - I think this is the kind of hall that MSB is recorded in. It would be very difficult to customise spaces if it were recorded in an ambient hall, but perfectly possible in these Goldilocks rooms.



You explained many things that were always unclear to me. One of the best posts I've come across on this forum. Thanks Guy!

I have another question if you would so kindly reply. Even with that "sweet spot" space, wouldn't you still have some sort of room baked in the samples? To the point that if I moved the samples around the virtual stage, wouldn't I be also moving the room itself, causing all sorts of imaging issues?

Or this "sweet spot" space contains just enough room in the samples, compared to a silent or live room, that it can get away with the aforementioned issues? Thanks again


----------



## Casiquire

HelixK said:


> You explained many things that were always unclear to me. One of the best posts I've come across on this forum. Thanks Guy!
> 
> I have another question if you would so kindly reply. Even with that "sweet spot" space, wouldn't you still have some sort of room baked in the samples? To the point that if I moved the samples around the virtual stage, wouldn't I be also moving the room itself, causing all sorts of imaging issues?
> 
> Or this "sweet spot" space contains just enough room in the samples, compared to a silent or live room, that it can get away with the aforementioned issues? Thanks again



We've seen this in practice with LASS, things can still sound good when they're moved around.


----------



## HelixK

Casiquire said:


> We've seen this in practice with LASS, things can still sound good when they're moved around.



I still don't understand how's possible to move the room without causing issues but I suppose you are right, LASS did it before. Then why even bother recording dry? It can sound amazing though...


----------



## Hanu_H

HelixK said:


> I still don't understand how's possible to move the room without causing issues but I suppose you are right, LASS did it before. Then why even bother recording dry? It can sound amazing though...



I am guessing it works the same way as you would do with studio recordings. You record everything centered and then you can pan it the way you want it. If the room is not big with a long tail, it still sounds natural. And MSB seems to have quite advanced convolution processing as well for creating depth. I also think this is the sweet spot for sampling, you get a lot more detail in the instrument but you still have a natural sounding room. You then have a perfect control over the size of the room, you can go from intimate studio sound to a big hollywood sound with the same library. It already works really well in LASS, I hope it works as well in MSB.

-Hannes


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Casiquire said:


> It will be like Genesis, and like an updated version of LASS's Stage feature. It's similar in practice to MIR or VSS.



if the new products have the Genesis styled UI,

oh boy.

oh boy, oh boy.

a little Novo-esque - not a bad thing.

love my IT and RT.

making me glad i didn't blow my nut on some of the BF Big Guns.


----------



## Casiquire

HelixK said:


> I still don't understand how's possible to move the room without causing issues but I suppose you are right, LASS did it before. Then why even bother recording dry? It can sound amazing though...




Because the room size is not large. There's no tail interfering. At least that's my guess! These libraries are still fairly dry, they just have some "air"



Zoot_Rollo said:


> if the new products have the Genesis styled UI,
> 
> oh boy.
> 
> oh boy, oh boy.
> 
> a little Novo-esque - not a bad thing.
> 
> love my IT and RT.
> 
> making me glad i didn't blow my nut on some of the BF Big Guns.



It's the same interface, there are pictures out already!


----------



## CT

There may be no tails to speak of, but there are still walls, and that sonic information is contained in the samples and gets moved around too, which I could imagine possibly sounding very strange. I'm wary of the idea, but have always enjoyed the sound of LASS. Was that recorded centered, or in situ?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Casiquire said:


> It's the same interface, there are pictures out already!



ahh, i didn't go to the site to check this until just now.

LOVELY.

LASS 3 should cause quite a stir.


----------



## jamwerks

@miket, it's true that the walls are in the samples, but when the positioning is done, it's not just panning, but includes (iinm) precisely timed delayed signals to all sides which create "new" walls. Those do contradict the original walls, but the ear accepts the newly defined space.

It's not quite as real as the real deal, but supposedly worth the trade-off. Imo, just one section of the orchestra with this lesser-than-real situation won't matter much, but I wouldn't want all sections in a mix like this.

A good example would be a mix entirely made up of VSL Silent Stage recordings, put through MIR Pro. MIR Pro adds convincing new walls, but the original ones are still highly present in the signal, which to my ears results in a strange "build-up" which is to me unpleasant and unconvincing.


----------



## constaneum

Zoot_Rollo said:


> LASS 3 should cause quite a stir.



this is hard to say. I think it might be a 50/50 thing. It's mentioned that there'll be new contents but what about existing samples which are a bit dated in terms of timbre? If there's improvement on the timbre, it might then cause quite a stir with the new interface, new scripting and etc.


----------



## HelixK

jamwerks said:


> @miket, it's true that the walls are in the samples, but when the positioning is done, it's not just panning, but includes (iinm) precisely timed delayed signals to all sides which create "new" walls. Those do contradict the original walls, but the ear accepts the newly defined space.
> 
> It's not quite as real as the real deal, but supposedly worth the trade-off. Imo, just one section of the orchestra with this lesser-than-real situation won't matter much, but I wouldn't want all sections in a mix like this.
> 
> A good example would be a mix entirely made up of VSL Silent Stage recordings, put through MIR Pro. MIR Pro adds convincing new walls, but the original ones are still highly present in the signal, which to my ears results in a strange "build-up" which is to me unpleasant and unconvincing.



jamwerks your comment is pure gold, thanks boss!

@dxmachina if I can stack another question on top of my previous one about audio demos and price, could you elaborate on this: How easy will it be to place CMB in the same space as LASS or Genesis using The Stage? Will you have the same custom spaces across all libraries?


----------



## LHall

constaneum said:


> It's mentioned that there'll be new contents but what about existing samples which are a bit dated in terms of timbre?



I'm just thinking - sections of violins today sound exactly like they did 20 years ago and 50 years ago. Since LASS was recorded, I'm not aware of any groundbreaking new recording techniques or gear that would vastly improve the sound of a recorded section. So I'm not too sure that LASS can be tagged as dated in terms of timbre. I think any huge leap for LASS 3 might come in terms of performance capabilities and virtual stage processing. I could be wrong - I often am.


----------



## erica-grace

constaneum said:


> It's mentioned that there'll be new contents but what about existing samples which are a bit dated in terms of timbre?



How does the timbre of musical instruments become dated?


----------



## Casiquire

I was thinking the same thing. LASS's samples simply sound like strings, recorded in a studio. I can listen back to strings recorded in the 70s that don't sound "dated" to me today.


----------



## erica-grace

Exactly. When you listen to the strings in "The Phantom Menace", do they sound dated? No? Well, those were recorded almost 20 years ago, as compared to LASS, which was about 10.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Well you could make a case that tastes change a little I guess, certainly in the sample marketplace. LASS has always been quite bright, and harsh if you put your foot right down on the CC1 pedal (so don't).

Stage and Color can take a little of the edge off, but that's always seemed to me to be a reductive tool, just taking out frequencies rather than a complete timbre change or anything. I guess some would like a smoother / more buttery sound out of the box, which its fair to say some post-LASS libraries have had.

(I'm a LASS fan - just trying to get what the poster perhaps meant).


----------



## Pablocrespo

I love and use Lass since the early years, the thing that bothers me most is the tuning issues. So, my hope is for new recordings in Lass 3


----------



## Rob Elliott

Guy Rowland said:


> Well you could make a case that tastes change a little I guess, certainly in the sample marketplace. LASS has always been quite bright, and harsh if you put your foot right down on the CC1 pedal (so don't).
> 
> Stage and Color can take a little of the edge off, but that's always seemed to me to be a reductive tool, just taking out frequencies rather than a complete timbre change or anything. I guess some would like a smoother / more buttery sound out of the box, which its fair to say some post-LASS libraries have had.
> 
> (I'm a LASS fan - just trying to get what the poster perhaps meant).


I was just going to post about the same thing. Also, strings are fairly 'individual'. Of course the use/application depend on the project - which is the freak why we have so many string libraries. :(

Having said this - I am one who wouldn't mind less bright/harshness in the next iteration of LASS - but NOT in a reductive way (thru stage and color, eq, etc...) as the 'good stuff' ALSO gets lobotomized. :( Subsequent string libraries have pushed LASS off its perch in my template and I wouldn't mind 'wanting' to go back more often.


----------



## HelixK

Pablocrespo said:


> I love and use Lass since the early years, the thing that bothers me most is the tuning issues. So, my hope is for new recordings in Lass 3



Have you contacted support yet?


----------



## jamwerks

Sampling has advanced light years since LASS came out: How the samples are chopped, recording technics so as to extract better performances, recording the legato, programming the legato, etc., ect.

If Andrew doesn't feel as if he wants to start fresh I'd really be surprised.


----------



## Rob Elliott

jamwerks said:


> Sampling has advanced light years since LASS came out: How the samples are chopped, recording technics so as to extract better performances, recording the legato, programming the legato, etc., ect.
> 
> If Andrew doesn't feel as if he wants to start fresh I'd really be surprised.


I do admire Andrew and crew for what they have accomplished but from his own words.... 'new content'... I got the distinct feeling that it will be in the form of 'additional articulations, etc.' maybe some spot replacements, etc. but NOT wholesale new sampling session(s) covering the entire library. Love to be wrong though.


----------



## Casiquire

I don't hear new libraries that are lightyears better than old ones because of new technology in how samples are cut. I don't believe that's a thing. You're right that where samples are cut makes a difference, but different developers and different consumers simply have different tastes. Programming has come a long way though, and Audiobro's new sampler is pretty cutting edge, so they're front and center.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

erica-grace said:


> How does the timbre of musical instruments become dated?


i think hes talking about the 'mix'. levels and positioning of mics and choice of room. if u compared the sound of strings in a 2018 action film to something from 1990 you'll notice a huge difference. modern recording and mixing sounds very different. just compare the "hyper realistic" 8dio sound to something like EWQL. (the 8dio stuff is so lush it actually sounds unrealistic... its "impossible", hence the hyper.) for my taste OT does it best, and if i had to pick between Spitfire and EWQL Hollywood I'd always go Spitfire. Air > convolution.

i think this upcoming brass library has potential to be great as long as the room isnt dead as dust like vsl. if theres some good ambient mics even in a rather dry room, you can get a reasonably wet sound. its those damn close mics on their own, alone, that do not sound like orchestral brass..... you have to have distance for the sound to develop.


----------



## constaneum

actually, my dated is basically implying the concern on how these new contents would match with the old contents timbre wise. Would it be using the same place to record the new contents? same recording mic used as LASS 1.5 /2?

Wont it be odd sounding that the new contents might have the sound of cinematic strings 2's thick lush sound but when you switch articulation to older contents like the sustains or even marcato with thinner and drier sound? hmm...


----------



## HelixK

How deeply involved they were with NI Symphonic Strings? New recordings do not necessarily mean better libraries, look at how bad NISS turned out to be compared to older string libraries

LASS...2009
Symphobia...2009
Cinematic Strings 2...2012
Cinestrings...2013
Berlin Strings...2014
Spitfire Mural_SS...2014
NI Symphonic Strings...2016

Andrew is no rookie and I trust his judgment. If he thinks the original content plus an engine overhaul is sufficient to bring LASS on par with CMB, Genesis and other string libraries, I'll give him a vote of confidence.

Do you think LASS is missing layers, RRs, different legato speeds or something else that could justify an entirely new recording?


----------



## dxmachina

> if I can stack another question on top of my previous one about audio demos and price, could you elaborate on this: How easy will it be to place CMB in the same space as LASS or Genesis using The Stage? Will you have the same custom spaces across all libraries?



Yes, the spaces will be shared between all our new releases, so MSB has all the same spaces as Genesis (plus a bunch more that are custom designed for this library).

Regarding pricing and demos there's not much more I can say yet except that we will be releasing more information (demos, videos, pricing) as we approach release. 



> i think this upcoming brass library has potential to be great as long as the room isnt dead as dust like vsl. if theres some good ambient mics even in a rather dry room, you can get a reasonably wet sound. its those damn close mics on their own, alone, that do not sound like orchestral brass..... you have to have distance for the sound to develop.



When you record bone dry (pun INTENDED) not only does it not have the "orchestral brass sound" you don't IMO get the "orchestral brass performance." I've been in the section and on the podium.. and you just play and phrase differently when you hear the sound bouncing off the walls.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

For me, LASS is very well done. This library was lightyears ahead of it's time, and still is, in my opinion. Good recordings, clever scripting, amazing playability. Actually, with their legatos you can play short notes and harsh attacks, too. Something I only know from Spitfire's performance legatos. Other libraries' legatos are on the softer side.

Have a look at the first announcement of LASS. So many things to learn in this thread:
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ary-announcing-la-scoring-strings-lass.11272/

Only thing I'm missing is perhaps: different microphone positions (but not that much), several legato speeds and more articulations. I like the harsh recording, but that's also due to the mix-down of close, decca and far microphones.

Concerning the "new content": I don't know how this can be achieved. Recent Audiobro libraries, and also the NI Symphonic Strings, were recorded in Budapest. LASS was recorded in LA. These are two different sounds/timbres. I like the overall sound of the NI Symphonic Strings, especially on sustained notes (not the legatos!). Either there will be new recordings of the complete library in Budapest, or they go back to the mysterious studio they used for LASS. Nobody knows the studio. There was an agreement, if I remember correctly.

Maybe, but this is only a guess, there were some new recordings done for LASS during the making of NI Symphonic Strings. Who knows...


----------



## Guy Rowland

jamwerks said:


> Sampling has advanced light years since LASS came out: How the samples are chopped, recording technics so as to extract better performances, recording the legato, programming the legato, etc., ect.
> 
> If Andrew doesn't feel as if he wants to start fresh I'd really be surprised.



Aside from fast legato, I don't think LASS's has been bettered. In fact almost the reverse, most libraries struggle a great deal more, largely because they are recorded in ambient halls. There are some very impressive ambient legatos now mind, but they are in the minority.

I'd be very surprised if the new material in LASS 3 was not recorded in the same hall as the originals, or at least as close a match as possible. Not Budapest.

As to timbre, I share Rob's thoughts. I think we'll have the same core samples - there's magic in there and a complete do-over wouldn't really be LASS - but it would be nice to get a fresh look at the timbral responses that only ever really half worked. Rob's spot on that the good stuff tends to disappear along with the bad. Here's my sneaky thought - reprogram the patches to allow more modwheel travel until it gets harsh - push what is currently at 80 to 110 and sneak in some volume / subtle filtering tweaks - and everyone will say it suddenly sounds more buttery 

My guess would be the biggest difference is the scripting / UI to match Genesis & MSB, then I'll take a punt on some new short / blurry legato transitions for fast runs, a smattering of new articulations and maybe some new timbral responses. I'd be very happy with that list.


----------



## NoamL

Interesting idea Guy. Perhaps it's possible to program a dynamic EQ inside Kontakt? You could have a send, put the "buttery" EQ on the send, and automate the ratio of signal sent to the main and parallel chain, based on CC1? That way it kicks in more at the higher dynamics.


----------



## Guy Rowland

An interesting idea yourself, Noam - think there might be something in that...


----------



## Rob Elliott

I am liking the way this is going. Hmmmm (Andrew, what say ye?)… and I don't blame you if you don't say ye anything.


----------



## Casiquire

NoamL said:


> Interesting idea Guy. Perhaps it's possible to program a dynamic EQ inside Kontakt? You could have a send, put the "buttery" EQ on the send, and automate the ratio of signal sent to the main and parallel chain, based on CC1? That way it kicks in more at the higher dynamics.



I think the main thrust of what Guy was saying was to change the way the modwheel works to achieve a more buttery.sound. My strings never sound harsh because I only push the modwheel above like 80 maybe once per minute or less, sometimes never within an entire song. I'd bet three quarters of the complaints of harshness come from people using the wheel the same way they do with other libraries, not realizing that half of what they're playing is FF.


----------



## jamwerks

Genesis is so much ahead of the competition, I would imagine that the new strings will also push the bar. Just adding content to LASS might take longer than just starting again. And I would expect that they would feel the need to start fresh in order to implement new techniques. 

I could imagine: 
- 3 or 4 different attacks on sustains
- varispeed legati (slow portato to runs) 
- Ostinato legato (back & forth between 2 notes) 
- shorts with ajustable lengths with release triggers (like SF) 
- arcs with release triggers (like VSL now knows how to do)
- trems with speed control (via Time machine Pro)
- ect...


----------



## Casiquire

jamwerks said:


> Genesis is so much ahead of the competition, I would imagine that the new strings will also push the bar. Just adding content to LASS might take longer than just starting again. And I would expect that they would feel the need to start fresh in order to implement new techniques.
> 
> I could imagine:
> - 3 or 4 different attacks on sustains
> - varispeed legati (slow portato to runs)
> - Ostinato legato (back & forth between 2 notes)
> - shorts with ajustable lengths with release triggers (like SF)
> - arcs with release triggers (like VSL now knows how to do)
> - trems with speed control (via Time machine Pro)
> - ect...



Quick side note for anybody trying to do an ostinato who wants to avoid the simulated round robins, I like to maximise the legato speed and switch between the three legato types.


----------



## Architekton

Why cant I open Audiobro website? No matter what I try, it doesnt wotk. I am from EU country? I know some people from Russia also have issue...but I am long way from there. :/ Any help is appreciated!


----------



## Rob Elliott

jamwerks said:


> Genesis is so much ahead of the competition, I would imagine that the new strings will also push the bar. Just adding content to LASS might take longer than just starting again. And I would expect that they would feel the need to start fresh in order to implement new techniques.
> 
> I could imagine:
> - 3 or 4 different attacks on sustains
> - varispeed legati (slow portato to runs)
> - Ostinato legato (back & forth between 2 notes)
> - shorts with ajustable lengths with release triggers (like SF)
> - arcs with release triggers (like VSL now knows how to do)
> - trems with speed control (via Time machine Pro)
> - ect...


This is a nice list...and quite the mountain to climb. Keeping my fangars crossed.


----------



## Zhao Shen

jamwerks said:


> Genesis is so much ahead of the competition, I would imagine that the new strings will also push the bar.



Is it? From what I saw of it the legato scripting is sublime, but the short syllables in their equivalent of a word builder sounded quite mediocre. The opposite problem of pretty much every choir library out there, and the legato is by far the harder sound to get right, but still the problem exists.


----------



## HelixK

Zhao Shen said:


> Is it? From what I saw of it the legato scripting is sublime, but the short syllables in their equivalent of a word builder sounded quite mediocre. The opposite problem of pretty much every choir library out there, and the legato is by far the harder sound to get right, but still the problem exists.



I've been thinking a lot about grabbing Genesis and one of the reasons I'm considering it is due to the large number of syllables, vowels, prefix and suffix that you don't see in any other children's libraries.

Could you elaborate on what exactly you found mediocre about it? Maybe you are seeing something I am not.

There was a recent post on Facebook asking for opinions between Genesis and Arva... Genesis was the clear favorite. Anyone else owns both libraries?


----------



## Zhao Shen

HelixK said:


> I've been thinking a lot about grabbing Genesis and one of the reasons I'm considering it is due to the large number of syllables, vowels, prefix and suffix that you don't see in any other children's libraries.
> 
> Could you elaborate on what exactly you found mediocre about it? Maybe you are seeing something I am not.
> 
> There was a recent post on Facebook asking for opinions between Genesis and Arva... Genesis was the clear favorite. Anyone else owns both libraries?



I mean, I can't claim to know better than anyone else especially since I don't own it. But in all the walkthroughs IMO the staccatos stood out as sounding especially like a virtual instrument. Just something about the attacks...


----------



## LamaRose

lucor said:


> According to their description they recorded everything from ppp to fff (!!)...



I took note of that as well. A lot of developers promise lower dynamics, but very seldom deliver, at least from a timbre standpoint. But ppp? We'll see...


----------



## HelixK

Buy the Ark bundle at 63% off or wait for MSB? 

Audiobro you have *14 Days 9 Hours 20 Minutes 25 Seconds *to give us something


----------



## Vadium

Architekton said:


> Why cant I open Audiobro website?


Try a Tor web browser


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

dxmachina said:


> Yes, the spaces will be shared between all our new releases, so MSB has all the same spaces as Genesis (plus a bunch more that are custom designed for this library).
> 
> Regarding pricing and demos there's not much more I can say yet except that we will be releasing more information (demos, videos, pricing) as we approach release.
> 
> 
> 
> When you record bone dry (pun INTENDED) not only does it not have the "orchestral brass sound" you don't IMO get the "orchestral brass performance." I've been in the section and on the podium.. and you just play and phrase differently when you hear the sound bouncing off the walls.



Sounds great. If you guys havent done the recording sessions yet, please take some pictures! I would especially love to see all of those BBb Cimbassi!


----------



## HelixK

I'll just leave this here and run like hell


----------



## axb312

HelixK said:


> I'll just leave this here and run like hell




Already has it's own thread.


----------



## Casiquire

dxmachina said:


> Yes, the spaces will be shared between all our new releases, so MSB has all the same spaces as Genesis (plus a bunch more that are custom designed for this library).



As a side note, I really loved the concept and execution of "colors" in LASS. It almost wasn't as important to me how accurately they portray particular film scores as just the fact that I have so many different sounds to choose from, although many out the colors truly are very close to their source material. Not having Genesis but having seen and heard from it and having seen the interface of MSB, it seems as though that direction has changed. I don't see the colors even though it would be cool for the brass and strings (and eventually percussion) to sit together and sound like those same film scores. Any chance things will head that way?


----------



## HelixK

I hate to be "that guy" but can we hear something before 2019?

Cinematic Studio Brass is out and it's becoming harder and harder to justify the wait. Yes CSB has less content but size does not matter if the sound isn't right. Alex knocked the ball out of the park with that one.

Give us something audioBro, even a few tech demos will do


----------



## kevthurman

*Modern Scoring Bump?*


----------



## Casiquire

kevthurman said:


> *Modern Scoring Bump?*



YES I'm down for the bump!


----------



## Architekton

Just found ouy my country is blocked by AudioBro, thats why I cant open their website. Thank you AudioBro for discrimination. We are not all thieves, you know...I am certain I will never ever buy your product even if you unblock.


----------



## I like music

Architekton said:


> Just found ouy my country is blocked by AudioBro, thats why I cant open their website. Thank you AudioBro for discrimination. We are not all thieves, you know...I am certain I will never ever buy your product even if you unblock.



Where is this?


----------



## Vadium

I also can visit AudioBro site by Tor browser only (from Russia)


----------



## Casiquire

I like music said:


> Where is this?



Probably Russia, as that's where I've heard the most complaints about the site being inaccessible.


----------



## germancomponist

Casiquire said:


> Probably Russia, as that's where I've heard the most complaints about the site being inaccessible.


If this is true, then it is so very sadly! I have some good friends there in Russia and you know what? They are humans as we are, no different! And again, Russia is not the evil!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_military_bases_abroad


----------



## LamaRose

Russians getting a bad rap at every turn... including exclusive rights to supposed intellectual _piracy_. This actually turns me off in regards to supporting Audiobro. I wonder how many other developers have this policy?


----------



## erica-grace

Has Audiobro blocked Russia, or has Russia blocked an umbrella of websites that Audiobro falls under?


----------



## erica-grace

LamaRose said:


> Russians getting a bad rap at every turn...



I would say that comment is completely false.


----------



## Architekton

I am from Croatia, not Russia. And site is blocked, well done Audiobro, nice discrimination.


----------



## HelixK

I can accept AudioBro disrupting my BF and Holidays plans with this "announcement"
I can accept the lack of price and release date
I can even accept the lack of demos...

But to block an entire country because of a few bad apples? I sincerely hope that is a genuine mistake on their side otherwise this will drastically impact my decision to do business with AudioBro.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Architekton said:


> Just found ouy my country is blocked by AudioBro, thats why I cant open their website. Thank you AudioBro for discrimination. We are not all thieves, you know...I am certain I will never ever buy your product even if you unblock.



I don't think it's their fault and intention. I heard of this issue some time ago, I think in the Genesis thread. Use the search function and have a look there.

If I remember correctly, they fixed this issue for another country.


----------



## germancomponist

Maybe it is Microsoft, or Apple, or other American internet companies who are doing this? In Germany, for example, the internet is now controlled by the "Bertelsmann Stiftung", (many thanks to Angela Merkel)and this is so hard to believe for us all here. ...


----------



## lucor

germancomponist said:


> Maybe it is Microsoft, or Apple, or other American internet companies who are doing this? In Germany, for example, the internet is now controlled by the "Bertelsmann Stiftung", (many thanks to Angela Merkel)and this is so hard to believe for us all here. ...


----------



## germancomponist

I bet this thing will be cleared up. At least I hope it's a glitch that gets fixed quickly.


----------



## Architekton

I have no problem with any sites, except with audiobro. Thats the only one that doesnt want to load. Judging by some other posts on this site, I am no the only one with this issue.


----------



## CT

I think I've always known deep down that VI-Control would probably be the epicenter of World War III.


----------



## Hanu_H

If I remember correctly it was a problem with their server company and they said they will try to solve it. Let's hope it gets fixed.

-Hannes


----------



## tim727

miket said:


> I think I've always known deep down that VI-Control would probably be the epicenter of World War III.



This made me laugh out loud. Thank you.


----------



## kevthurman

"While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!"


WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Cheaper than Berlin Brass? Is there any more expensive competing library?


----------



## germancomponist

miket said:


> I think I've always known deep down that VI-Control would probably be the epicenter of World War III.


What a misplaced comment! Put yourself in the position of the Russians, who are attacked unjustly everywhere in the West! I can understand these people well!


----------



## germancomponist

tim727 said:


> This made me laugh out loud. Thank you.


Have a good lough ... .


----------



## tim727

germancomponist said:


> Have a good lough ... .



I'm not laughing at the fact that people from certain countries can't access their site. Rather, I'm laughing at the notion that these relatively minor offenses on vi-control could be the spark that ignites the next world war (like the assassination of the archduke prior to WWI).


----------



## Pablocrespo

It is on purpose due to security reasons, I have talked with Andrew about it when my country was blacklisted. 

It was blacklisted for a year or more (long before genesys) and I also couldn´t enter the forums.

They allowed some countries in, in the end, and I tought it was worldwide but it seems not.

Andrew if you are reading this, this is a very bad business decision. You shouldn´t ban whole countries.


----------



## Guy Rowland

germancomponist said:


> What a misplaced comment! Put yourself in the position of the Russians, who are attacked unjustly everywhere in the West! I can understand these people well!



miket's post feels eerily prophetic...


----------



## germancomponist

tim727 said:


> I'm not laughing at the fact that people from certain countries can't access their site. Rather, I'm laughing at the notion that these relatively minor offenses on vi-control could be the spark that ignites the next world war (like the assassination of the archduke prior to WWI).


Ah, oh, hm, so you are joking, as I so often do. But hey, this is a good example for that people very often do not understand jokes, when they are written in other languages .... . Thanks for the hint!


----------



## tav.one

India was also banned, after a lot of messages and mails, they unblocked India last year and I was able to buy Genesis.


----------



## erica-grace

germancomponist said:


> Put yourself in the position of the Russians, who are attacked unjustly everywhere in the West!



Who has attacked Russia? Is it not Russia who has been on the offensive as of late, with it's incursions?

Seriously - I would like to know who Russia has been attacked by, be it physical, or cyber, or..


----------



## Hanu_H

Isn't this getting a bit off topic?

-Hannes


----------



## HelixK

tav.one said:


> India was also banned, after a lot of messages and mails, they unblocked India last year and I was able to buy Genesis.



@Architekton worth a try?


----------



## HelixK

kevthurman said:


> "While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!"
> 
> 
> WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Cheaper than Berlin Brass? Is there any more expensive competing library?



It means only time will tell and it's not healthy to speculate about these things


----------



## germancomponist

erica-grace said:


> Who has attacked Russia? Is it not Russia who has been on the offensive as of late, with it's incursions?
> 
> Seriously - I would like to know who Russia has been attacked by, be it physical, or cyber, or..


I didn't say that someone here attacked Russia! And you are wrong. Russia did not go on the offensive! But, as Hanu, H said, let us not get off topic.
I anyway just want peace, worldwide!


----------



## erica-grace

germancomponist said:


> Put yourself in the position of the Russians, who are attacked unjustly everywhere in the West!





germancomponist said:


> I didn't say that someone here attacked Russia!







germancomponist said:


> And you are wrong. Russia did not go on the offensive!



Of course not. Russia did not launch a full-scale ground invasion into Georgia. Nor did they intervene with their military in Ukraine. Fake news, eh?


----------



## kevthurman

HelixK said:


> It means only time will tell and it's not healthy to speculate about these things


If I cared about my health I wouldn't have gotten myself into scoring!


----------



## germancomponist

erica-grace said:


> Of course not. Russia did not launch a full-scale ground invasion into Georgia. Nor did they intervene with their military in Ukraine. Fake news, eh?


If I went into it now, how you are completely ripped off and lied to in America of the mass media, then I would go very out of topic. I do not like that, that does not belong here! I recommend that you no longer read this lying press "Research for yourself!


----------



## kevthurman

You guys are in the wrong subforum. Go over to the politics forum.


----------



## Bear Market

germancomponist said:


> If I went into it now, how you are completely ripped off and lied to in America of the mass media, then I would go very out of topic. I do not like that, that does not belong here! I recommend that you no longer read this lying press "Research for yourself!



As a Swede I don't consume very much of American mass media. However, I find it hard to believe that any reasonably clear sighted person can label the Russian annexation of Crimea or incursion into the Donbass as legitimate. With that said, I think it is important to separate ones views (whatever they may be) of the Russian political leadership from the average Russian citizen. 

Sorry for contributing the derailment of the thread...

I'm really psyched to see what MSB will bring to the table!


----------



## erica-grace

germancomponist said:


> I do not like that, that does not belong here!



What doesn't belong here? You must mean your of "Russians Attacked unjustly" comment. No, that does not belong here. But you said it before I responded to it. 



germancomponist said:


> If I went into it now, how you are completely ripped off and lied to in America of the mass media,



I am not saying the American media is perfect (it is far from it), and that it has no bias (it does) . But if you are trying to say that the American mass media lied to me and my fellow Americans when it covered the Russian annexation of Crimea, that the American mass media lied to me and my fellow Americans when it covered the Russian incursion into Georgia, that the American mass media lied to me and my fellow Americans when it covered the military involvement in Ukraine, then you need to lay off the sauce. Have a good day.


----------



## germancomponist

erica-grace said:


> What doesn't belong here? You must mean your of "Russians Attacked unjustly" comment. No, that does not belong here. But you said it before I responded to it.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not saying the American media is perfect (it is far from it), and that it has no bias (it does) . But if you are trying to say that the American mass media lied to me and my fellow Americans when it covered the Russian annexation of Crimea, that the American mass media lied to me and my fellow Americans when it covered the Russian incursion into Georgia, that the American mass media lied to me and my fellow Americans when it covered the military involvement in Ukraine, then you need to lay off the sauce. Have a good day.


And here we are .... . When did you visit the Ukraine? When did you visit Syria? And so on .... . As I said, let us discuss this in another thread!
As a side note: Nowhere is so much lied as in the press. You like Trump or not, but he's right! We are only surrounded by a lying press. No matter which press it is, inquire about who the owner is! Who owns the Washington Post, for example?


----------



## NoamL

germancomponist said:


> When did you visit the Ukraine? When did you visit Syria?



is this really the logic you want to use


----------



## Sovereign

kevthurman said:


> You guys are in the wrong subforum. Go over to the politics forum.


I heard that people who enter there don't come out alive.


----------



## germancomponist

NoamL said:


> is this really the logic you want to use


Sorry, this is bullshit! Where have you found this?


----------



## babylonwaves

guys, the people at audiobro are super nice. and the make libs in order to sell those, of course they want to recoup their investment. if you can't buy in your country, contact audiobro. i'm sure they'll find a solution.


----------



## ka00

babylonwaves said:


> guys, the people at audiobro are super nice. and the make libs in order to sell those, of course they want to recoup their investment. if you can't buy in your country, contact audiobro. i'm sure they'll find a solution.



Yeah, I agree. I had a support question on Christmas Day and Andrew replied within minutes.

Plus, I’d prefer LASS III to WW III any day.


----------



## D Halgren

germancomponist said:


> And here we are .... . When did you visit the Ukraine? When did you visit Syria? And so on .... . As I said, let us discuss this in another thread!
> As a side note: Nowhere is so much lied as in the press. You like Trump or not, but he's right! We are only surrounded by a lying press. No matter which press it is, inquire about who the owner is! Who owns the Washington Post, for example?


Jeff Bezos, an actual billionaire, unlike that other liar.


----------



## tim727

@erica-grace @germancomponist Seriously can you guys continue your argument over PM or something? I'm very interested in MSB and it would be nice if this thread continued to be a source for info and discussion about the library instead of a political debate.


----------



## D Halgren

tim727 said:


> @erica-grace @germancomponist Seriously can you guys continue your argument over PM or something? I'm very interested in MSB and it would be nice if this thread continued to be a source for info and discussion about the library instead of a political debate.


Sorry, Tim.


----------



## LamaRose

erica-grace said:


> Who has attacked Russia? Is it not Russia who has been on the offensive as of late, with it's incursions?
> 
> Seriously - I would like to know who Russia has been attacked by, be it physical, or cyber, or..


MSM... day after day, continent after continent, topic after topic...


----------



## prodigalson

jesus guys, give it a rest.


----------



## tim727

kevthurman said:


> "While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass!"
> 
> 
> WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Cheaper than Berlin Brass? Is there any more expensive competing library?



I don't think this necessarily implies that it will be cheaper than BB. It only implies that it'll be less expensive than what we probably think it's worth ... or should be worth. That being said I do believe it will be cheaper than the aggregate price of all the BB libs.

Edit:

Out of curiosity ... can anyone see this actually being less than 1000 USD?


----------



## Geoff Grace

tim727 said:


> can anyone see this actually being less than 1000 USD?


I'd be surprised if it were $1,000 or more, simply because of how glutted the marketplace is now and resulting downward spiral of prices.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## jamwerks

germancomponist said:


> And here we are .... . When did you visit the Ukraine? When did you visit Syria? And so on...


At least we know who we're talking to now...


----------



## HelixK

tim727 said:


> I don't think this necessarily implies that it will be cheaper than BB. It only implies that it'll be less expensive than what we probably think it's worth ... or should be worth. That being said I do believe it will be cheaper than the aggregate price of all the BB libs.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Out of curiosity ... can anyone see this actually being less than 1000 USD?



They didn't mention Berlin Brass specifically but they were very particular with the wording *"we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market"*

To me that screams it will be cheaper than everything else, otherwise why would we be "pleasantly surprised"? Here are the other main offerings on the market:

Berlin Brass €799
Hollywood Brass Platinum $299
Cinematic Studio Brass $279
Sptifre Studio Brass Pro $299
Century Brass bundle $598
Infinity Brass €399

So to answer your question, I find it very unlikely that this will be priced anywhere near the $1000 figure. More likely to be a number between Studio Brass and Century Brass.


----------



## kevthurman

HelixK said:


> They didn't mention Berlin Brass specifically but they were very particular with the wording *"we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market"*
> 
> To me that screams it will be cheaper than everything else, otherwise why would we be "pleasantly surprised"? Here are the other main offerings on the market:
> 
> Berlin Brass €799
> Hollywood Brass Platinum $299
> Cinematic Studio Brass $279
> Sptifre Studio Brass Pro $299
> Century Brass bundle $598
> Infinity Brass €399
> 
> So to answer your question, I find it very unlikely that this will be priced anywhere near the $1000 figure. More likely to be a number between Studio Brass and Century Brass.


The wording of the sentence implies that the price in relation to other libraries of its calibre are the primary reason we'd be pleasantly surprised, but speculation is just a guilty pleasure of mine. I'm sure more info will be released by the time I finish typing this sentence knowing my luck.


----------



## Casiquire

Architekton said:


> I am from Croatia, not Russia. And site is blocked, well done Audiobro, nice discrimination.



Ima nas par ovdje, pozdrav.

I'm not sure why certain locations are blocked, but they're usually pretty quiet about it


----------



## Geoff Grace

HelixK said:


> They didn't mention Berlin Brass specifically but they were very particular with the wording *"we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market"*
> 
> To me that screams it will be cheaper than everything else, otherwise why would we be "pleasantly surprised"? Here are the other main offerings on the market:
> 
> Berlin Brass €799
> Hollywood Brass Platinum $299
> Cinematic Studio Brass $279
> Sptifre Studio Brass Pro $299
> Century Brass bundle $598
> Infinity Brass €399
> 
> So to answer your question, I find it very unlikely that this will be priced anywhere near the $1000 figure. More likely to be a number between Studio Brass and Century Brass.


It should be pointed out that—other than sale prices or loyalty discounts—none of the products above retail for lower than $399. For example:

Hollywood Brass Diamond Edition $399 (currently sale priced at $159.60 until December 31)
Cinematic Studio Brass $399 ($279 for those who already own other Cinematic Studio Series products)
Spitfire Studio Brass Professional $399 (introductory price of $299 is no longer in effect)

And let's not forget:

Spitfire Symphonic Brass $699 (currently on Wish List sale for $419.40)

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Casiquire

Geoff Grace said:


> It should be pointed out that—other than sale prices or loyalty discounts—none of the products above retail for lower than $399. For example:
> 
> Hollywood Brass Diamond Edition $399 (currently sale priced at $159.60 until December 31)
> Cinematic Studio Brass $399 ($279 for those who already own other Cinematic Studio Series products)
> Spitfire Studio Brass Professional $399 (introductory price of $299 is no longer in effect)
> 
> And let's not forget:
> 
> Spitfire Symphonic Brass $699 (currently on Wish List sale for $419.40)
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



I would expect in the 700 range. They must have it in mind that their library does what few others do by providing individual instruments, and at that scale. You'd need Dimension Brass + several individual instruments to get close. Even the libraries you listed here aren't the same caliber as far as that's concerned.


----------



## HelixK

Casiquire said:


> I would expect in the 700 range. They must have it in mind that their library does what few others do by providing individual instruments, and at that scale. You'd need Dimension Brass + several individual instruments to get close. Even the libraries you listed here aren't the same caliber as far as that's concerned.



Whatever price is, it would be awesome to hear an audio demo to close off the year


----------



## tim727

HelixK said:


> They didn't mention Berlin Brass specifically but they were very particular with the wording *"we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market"*
> 
> To me that screams it will be cheaper than everything else, otherwise why would we be "pleasantly surprised"? Here are the other main offerings on the market:
> 
> Berlin Brass €799
> Hollywood Brass Platinum $299
> Cinematic Studio Brass $279
> Sptifre Studio Brass Pro $299
> Century Brass bundle $598
> Infinity Brass €399
> 
> So to answer your question, I find it very unlikely that this will be priced anywhere near the $1000 figure. More likely to be a number between Studio Brass and Century Brass.



I get your point but my thinking is as follows:

Given the shear amount of content and apparent "next-gen" functionality of the library on paper, one might expect the price to be very high. As such, as long as it ends up being less than the expected figure, it could still be higher than everything else out there without precluding one from being "pleasantly surprised" ... if you get what I'm saying.

I sure do hope you're right with you estimate though.


----------



## Saxer

About the price range: if they calculate a "per instrument" rate MSB might be more expensive. They offer about 50 different instrument patches and so they could be in the price range of BB + all BB Extensions or Cinebrass + Cinebrass Pro. Can't directly compare this to the 8 instrument patches of CSB.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

A general compromise would be to grant access to the page worldwide but not for action to buy the product, instead they could make a statement for certain countries to contact them if they want to purchase a product. So that is a bit of a compromise so that people from countries like russia or india etc. could visit their page still in order to check out their products and if they are interested then sending a mail to the support to be able to buy it. Maybe that could give them more control over the customers who bought the libraries.


----------



## NoamL

I'm comfortable guessing it'll be over $1000. Maybe over $1500, and maybe, if all the marketing is telling the truth, it could be yet more than that.

Sampling is a *hypercube*, i.e. a volume with four dimensions

One dimension is the number of playable instruments, each of which represents a recording session of a soloist or group of musicians (Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola...)

The second dimension is the number of microphones simultaneously capturing each note (close, tree, far...)

The third dimension is the number of articulations available for each note on the instrument (pizzicato, legato, tremolo...)

And the fourth dimension is how deeply each articulation is sampled (how many round robins, velocity layers, legato transitions...).

*That is why every sample library cuts a corner somewhere.* Because everything is multiplied by everything else.

You start sampling a string orchestra, and you go "Let's sample sustains with true _con sordino_!" And then you realize that means sampling every sustained note all over again, for all five string sessions, at multiple dynamic levels, and cutting and looping the samples for every mic. And then you go "Let's EQ our sustain samples to fake _con sordino_!" 

There is a reason @Rctec has been sampling his orchestra for decades...

Another corollary of this way at looking at library development, is you realize that many libraries are "puffed up" with fluff articulations. You know why every string library has Bartok snaps? Because they're easy one-shot samples, and you can get away with only one or two dynamic layers per note and maybe not even round robins. And you get to add it to the feature list, while truly valuable things like recording another dynamic layer on EVERY articulation of EVERY note of EVERY instrument, is inviting Multiplication Hell to descend upon you, and it's an invisible feature... only people who really care about realism will even notice...

But when you're sampling the main articulations, like sustains, there's nowhere to hide. Every inch you add on to one dimension means multiplying by the other three.

So when you compare MSB to these other libraries, let's look at the dimensions.

We can look at just the first two dimensions I mentioned.

Just let your eyes drift lazily over these numbers...

*Trailer Brass
2* mics + *1* mix
*3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)

*Performance Samples Caspian
3* mics
*3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)

*Adventure Brass
2* mics + *1 *mix
*5* recording sessions (1 soloist, 3 ensembles, but the trumpet ensemble has a soloist overlay).

*AudioImperia Jaeger* (just the brass component)
*4* mics + *1* mix
*4* recording sessions (4 ensembles)

*Heavyocity FORZO
3* mics + *1* mix
*6* recording sessions (6 ensembles)
*
Cinematic Studio Brass
3* mics + *1* mix
*8* recording sessions (5 soloists, 3 ensembles)

*Native Instruments Symphonic Brass
3* mics + *1 *mix
*9* recording sessions (5 soloists, 4 ensembles)
*
Cinebrass Pro
3* mics + *1* mix
*10* recording sessions (4 soloists, 6 ensembles)

*Bravura Scoring Brass
3* mics
*10* recording sessions (6 soloists, 4 ensembles)

*8Dio Century Brass
3* mics + *1* mix
*13* recording sessions (7 soloists, 6 ensembles)* 

Hollywood Brass Platinum
5* mics
*11* recording sessions (5 soloists, 6 ensembles)

*Berlin Brass
6* mics
*14* recording sessions (11 soloists, 3 ensembles)
*
Spitfire Studio Brass
6* mics + *2 *mixes
*17* recording sessions (13 soloists, 4 ensembles)

*Spitfire Symphonic Brass
3* mics + *4* more in the mic expansion + *3* custom mixes
*16* recording sessions (8 soloists, 8 ensembles)

Remember I am not saying that larger libraries are better. I am just pointing out that it's a budget thing. Cinematic Studio series is decidedly aimed at the "no frills" budget library category, at the same time it is wonderful, musical, and consistent.

and now...


*Modern Scoring Brass
4* mics + *1* mix
*28* recording sessions (30 soloists, but the last four horns were recorded in pairs)

*that's why it's not gonna be $400.* It doesn't matter what other libraries are released or what their prices are.

BTW this exact logic is why I am a skeptic of this library. It is a massive, ambitious, unprecedented, ridiculous leap forward in one dimension of that sampling hypercube. So what else got compromised? Well, according to the marketing, *nothing*: there is the fairly standard 3 mic position setup (with added independent control of Decca C vs LR); there is a reported dynamic range of "_ppp _through _fff_"; and the articulation list is thorough with multiple attack sustains, legatos, multiple shorts, mutes on every major instrument, and the standard special techniques. PLUS the library is controlled with specially programmed, advanced divisi scripts and a staging engine. So how the dingdong is this thing not going to end up at $3000?


----------



## Nils Neumann

NoamL said:


> I'm comfortable guessing it'll be over $1000. Maybe over $1500.
> 
> Sampling is a *hypercube*, i.e. a volume with four dimensions
> 
> One dimension is the number of playable instruments, each of which represents a recording session of a soloist or group of musicians (Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola...)
> 
> The second dimension is the number of microphones simultaneously capturing each note (close, tree, far...)
> 
> The third dimension is the number of articulations available for each note on the instrument (pizzicato, legato, tremolo...)
> 
> And the fourth dimension is how deeply each articulation is sampled (how many round robins, velocity layers, legato transitions...).
> 
> *That is why every sample library cuts a corner somewhere.* Because everything is multiplied by everything else.
> 
> You start sampling a string orchestra, and you go "Let's sample sustains with true _con sordino_!" And then you realize that means sampling every sustained note all over again, for all five string sessions, at multiple dynamic levels, and cutting and looping the samples for every mic. And then you go "Let's EQ our sustain samples to fake _con sordino_!"
> 
> There is a reason @Rctec has been sampling his orchestra for decades...
> 
> Another corollary of this way at looking at library development, is you realize that many libraries are "puffed up" with fluff articulations. You know why every string library has Bartok snaps? Because they're easy one-shot samples, and you can get away with only one or two dynamic layers per note and maybe not even round robins. And you get to add it to the feature list, while truly valuable things like recording another dynamic layer on EVERY articulation of EVERY note of EVERY instrument, is inviting Multiplication Hell to descend upon you, and it's an invisible feature... only people who really care about realism will even notice...
> 
> But when you're sampling the main articulations, like sustains, there's nowhere to hide. Every inch you add on to one dimension means multiplying by the other three.
> 
> So when you compare MSB to these other libraries, let's look at the dimensions.
> 
> We can look at just the first two dimensions I mentioned.
> 
> Just let your eyes drift lazily over these numbers...
> 
> *Trailer Brass
> 2* mics + *1* mix
> *3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)
> 
> *Performance Samples Caspian
> 3* mics
> *3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)
> 
> *Adventure Brass
> 2* mics + *1 *mix
> *5* recording sessions (1 soloist, 3 ensembles, but the trumpet ensemble has a soloist overlay).
> 
> *AudioImperia Jaeger* (just the brass component)
> *4* mics + *1* mix
> *4* recording sessions (4 ensembles)
> 
> *Heavyocity FORZO
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *6* recording sessions (6 ensembles)
> *
> Cinematic Studio Brass
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *8* recording sessions (5 soloists, 3 ensembles)
> 
> *Native Instruments Symphonic Brass
> 3* mics + *1 *mix
> *9* recording sessions (5 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> *
> Cinebrass Pro
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *10* recording sessions (4 soloists, 6 ensembles)
> 
> *Bravura Scoring Brass
> 3* mics
> *10* recording sessions (6 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> 
> *8Dio Century Brass
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *13* recording sessions (7 soloists, 6 ensembles)*
> 
> Hollywood Brass Platinum
> 5* mics
> *11* recording sessions (5 soloists, 6 ensembles)
> 
> *Berlin Brass
> 6* mics
> *14* recording sessions (11 soloists, 3 ensembles)
> *
> Spitfire Studio Brass
> 6* mics + *2 *mixes
> *17* recording sessions (13 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> 
> *Spitfire Symphonic Brass
> 3* mics + *4* more in the mic expansion + *3* custom mixes
> *16* recording sessions (8 soloists, 8 ensembles)
> 
> Remember I am not saying that larger libraries are better. I am just pointing out that it's a budget thing. Cinematic Studio series is decidedly aimed at the "no frills" budget library category, at the same time it is wonderful, musical, and consistent.
> 
> and now...
> 
> 
> *Modern Scoring Brass
> 4* mics + *1* mix
> *28* recording sessions (30 soloists, but the last four horns were recorded in pairs)
> 
> *that's why it's not gonna be $400.* It doesn't matter what other libraries are released or what their prices are.
> 
> BTW this exact logic is why I am a skeptic of this library. It is a massive, ambitious, unprecedented, ridiculous leap forward in one dimension of that sampling hypercube. So what else got compromised? Well, according to the marketing, *nothing*: there is the fairly standard 3 mic position setup (with added independent control of Decca C vs LR); there is a reported dynamic range of "_ppp _through _fff_"; and the articulation list is thorough with multiple attack sustains, legatos, multiple shorts, mutes on every major instrument, and the standard special techniques. PLUS the library is controlled with specially programmed, advanced divisi scripts and a staging engine. So how the dingdong is this thing not going to end up at $3000?
> 
> I still have a bad taste in my mouth from Berlin Brass, I'm afraid. That library advertised no corners cut as well, but what was cut was the true dynamic range of brass and the necessary programming time & care to make all the recording sessions consistent to the point where you can have a realistic TV or film workflow. Looking at a library with 28 separate recording sessions doesn't make me excited, it makes me anxious. The one happy note is that Andrew K most definitely achieved consistency and ease of use with LASS (which had 20 recording sessions compared to the usual 5 for stirng libraries).



Just curious. Where do you get all the information about the recording session count of each library?


----------



## NoamL

Nils Neumann said:


> Just curious. Where do you get all the information about the recording session count of each library?



I just looked at the number of instruments. For example Hollywood Brass has solo trumpet, trombone, cimbasso, tuba and horn; and ensembles of 2 trumpets, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, 2 horns, 6 horns, and a low-brass ensemble. Hence, eleven recording sessions in total. By "a session" I don't mean each setup was recorded and completed in one day, I just mean that for each articulation (e.g. staccato) it had to be recorded 11 times, once with each soloist or group.


----------



## kevthurman

NoamL said:


> I just looked at the number of instruments. For example Hollywood Brass has solo trumpet, trombone, cimbasso, tuba and horn; and ensembles of 2 trumpets, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, 2 horns, 6 horns, and a low-brass ensemble. Hence, eleven recording sessions in total. By "a session" I don't mean each setup was recorded and completed in one day, I just mean that for each articulation (e.g. staccato) it had to be recorded 11 times, once with each soloist or group.


Yeah I was pretty skeptical of such an ambitious library when I first saw it. The price being "surprisingly" low makes it even more sketchy... I'll hope for the best. My dream scenario is that they sell each section individually, but it doesn't sound like that's the plan.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Totally follow your logic Noam. But the asking price isn't just about the costs of development. As has been much discussed over the years, if you sell 1 copy at $2,000 for every 3 at $1,000, you make more money at the cheaper asking price. What would the real sales figures be in these cases? Who knows - that's a gamble every developer takes. Well, I say gamble but their own data and experience will greatly inform this decision of course.

There are a couple of other important factors - branding plays a much bigger component in the asking price than commonly assumed, and also a company's attitude to sales. These two things are linked. Nobody believes that Waves Gold is worth $799 any more, people only buy it at a steep discount. I think partly as a consequence, while 10 years ago Waves was quite revered, it has seen its brand devalued, discarded by many who just see it as Pile It High Sell It Cheap. By contrast, Spectrasonics products are worth their RRP as they are never discounted, and they enjoy a solid reputation.*

Audiobro is a company that seems to live in a state of near-permanent discount, but not to excessive levels. So adding the cost of making the library, branding and attitude to sales together, my own guess is RRP of $1399, permanent sale of $899.

PS - does the winner of this game get it for free?

*EDIT - meant to say that reputation is far more than sales price - support and ongoing development of existing products being two very important ones. On that score, I think Audiobro comes out well.


----------



## tim727

NoamL said:


> I'm comfortable guessing it'll be over $1000. Maybe over $1500, and maybe, if all the marketing is telling the truth, it could be yet more than that.
> 
> Sampling is a *hypercube*, i.e. a volume with four dimensions
> 
> One dimension is the number of playable instruments, each of which represents a recording session of a soloist or group of musicians (Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola...)
> 
> The second dimension is the number of microphones simultaneously capturing each note (close, tree, far...)
> 
> The third dimension is the number of articulations available for each note on the instrument (pizzicato, legato, tremolo...)
> 
> And the fourth dimension is how deeply each articulation is sampled (how many round robins, velocity layers, legato transitions...).
> 
> *That is why every sample library cuts a corner somewhere.* Because everything is multiplied by everything else.
> 
> You start sampling a string orchestra, and you go "Let's sample sustains with true _con sordino_!" And then you realize that means sampling every sustained note all over again, for all five string sessions, at multiple dynamic levels, and cutting and looping the samples for every mic. And then you go "Let's EQ our sustain samples to fake _con sordino_!"
> 
> There is a reason @Rctec has been sampling his orchestra for decades...
> 
> Another corollary of this way at looking at library development, is you realize that many libraries are "puffed up" with fluff articulations. You know why every string library has Bartok snaps? Because they're easy one-shot samples, and you can get away with only one or two dynamic layers per note and maybe not even round robins. And you get to add it to the feature list, while truly valuable things like recording another dynamic layer on EVERY articulation of EVERY note of EVERY instrument, is inviting Multiplication Hell to descend upon you, and it's an invisible feature... only people who really care about realism will even notice...
> 
> But when you're sampling the main articulations, like sustains, there's nowhere to hide. Every inch you add on to one dimension means multiplying by the other three.
> 
> So when you compare MSB to these other libraries, let's look at the dimensions.
> 
> We can look at just the first two dimensions I mentioned.
> 
> Just let your eyes drift lazily over these numbers...
> 
> *Trailer Brass
> 2* mics + *1* mix
> *3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)
> 
> *Performance Samples Caspian
> 3* mics
> *3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)
> 
> *Adventure Brass
> 2* mics + *1 *mix
> *5* recording sessions (1 soloist, 3 ensembles, but the trumpet ensemble has a soloist overlay).
> 
> *AudioImperia Jaeger* (just the brass component)
> *4* mics + *1* mix
> *4* recording sessions (4 ensembles)
> 
> *Heavyocity FORZO
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *6* recording sessions (6 ensembles)
> *
> Cinematic Studio Brass
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *8* recording sessions (5 soloists, 3 ensembles)
> 
> *Native Instruments Symphonic Brass
> 3* mics + *1 *mix
> *9* recording sessions (5 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> *
> Cinebrass Pro
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *10* recording sessions (4 soloists, 6 ensembles)
> 
> *Bravura Scoring Brass
> 3* mics
> *10* recording sessions (6 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> 
> *8Dio Century Brass
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *13* recording sessions (7 soloists, 6 ensembles)*
> 
> Hollywood Brass Platinum
> 5* mics
> *11* recording sessions (5 soloists, 6 ensembles)
> 
> *Berlin Brass
> 6* mics
> *14* recording sessions (11 soloists, 3 ensembles)
> *
> Spitfire Studio Brass
> 6* mics + *2 *mixes
> *17* recording sessions (13 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> 
> *Spitfire Symphonic Brass
> 3* mics + *4* more in the mic expansion + *3* custom mixes
> *16* recording sessions (8 soloists, 8 ensembles)
> 
> Remember I am not saying that larger libraries are better. I am just pointing out that it's a budget thing. Cinematic Studio series is decidedly aimed at the "no frills" budget library category, at the same time it is wonderful, musical, and consistent.
> 
> and now...
> 
> 
> *Modern Scoring Brass
> 4* mics + *1* mix
> *28* recording sessions (30 soloists, but the last four horns were recorded in pairs)
> 
> *that's why it's not gonna be $400.* It doesn't matter what other libraries are released or what their prices are.
> 
> BTW this exact logic is why I am a skeptic of this library. It is a massive, ambitious, unprecedented, ridiculous leap forward in one dimension of that sampling hypercube. So what else got compromised? Well, according to the marketing, *nothing*: there is the fairly standard 3 mic position setup (with added independent control of Decca C vs LR); there is a reported dynamic range of "_ppp _through _fff_"; and the articulation list is thorough with multiple attack sustains, legatos, multiple shorts, mutes on every major instrument, and the standard special techniques. PLUS the library is controlled with specially programmed, advanced divisi scripts and a staging engine. So how the dingdong is this thing not going to end up at $3000?



A very interesting and thorough writeup. I realllly can't see it being over 1500 though. I mean perhaps it's "worth" that much based on your hypercube analysis, but the problem is that no one will pay that much money for one lib. If they release it in parts though then that's a different story ...


----------



## tim727

I'm currently struggling a bit with deciding what to do. I don't think I'm capable enough yet as an orchestral composer to be able to justify spending over 1000 on one library. Part of me (*realllly*) wants to just get CSB right now but then I worry that they'll release this for like 700-800 and then I'll regret my decision. Ugh ...


----------



## Guy Rowland

One more observation on Noam's 4 dimensional cube - all those sides are of unequal length. Multiple mic positions are the lowest hanging fruit for adding perceived value. They have an almost zero effect on the recording sessions, and while they will increase editing and scripting time, I've long assumed all the sample chopping is done with all mic positions at once. (tangent - I've long thought if you want a sense of a library's true breadth and depth, don't just look at the size on disk, divide that by the number of mic positions).

Articulations are hugely variable - as Noam says a Bartok is cheap, a sustain is not. Legato is the worst of the lot by far. If you offer it an octave in each direction, that's over 20 good takes you need per note. And it gets even worse in post production as getting those transitions to work can be very tricky - triply so if its recorded in an ambient hall. Actually I'd peg the hall size as a fifth dimension.


----------



## jamwerks

It'll be interesting to see what VSL decides to present in the wake of this MSB announcement.

If for example the MSB 4 horn auto voicing tool (play chords and it voices that with 4 separate horn samples) works easily, sounds better enough, & worth the extra ram, others might want to copy. BB was a start in that direction but the implementation (for me) didn't work well enough.


----------



## Geoff Grace

Guy Rowland said:


> And it gets even worse in post production as getting those transitions to work can be very tricky - triply so if its recorded in an ambient hall. Actually I'd peg the hall size as a fifth dimension.


But only when the moon is in the seventh house. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## HelixK

Guy Rowland said:


> Totally follow your logic Noam. But the asking price isn't just about the costs of development. As has been much discussed over the years, if you sell 1 copy at $2,000 for every 3 at $1,000, you make more money at the cheaper asking price. What would the real sales figures be in these cases? Who knows - that's a gamble every developer takes. Well, I say gamble but their own data and experience will greatly inform this decision of course.



This. I truly believe that developers who won't adapt to the new realities of the market will have a hard time keeping up with the likes of Spitfire, EastWest and Cinematic Studio Series. It's not cheap to produce a sample library as detailed as MSB and I'm certain AudioBro is interested in profiting. It's about competitive price monitoring and the impact on their business. And we are talking about a developer affected by pirates to a point that they will block entire countries. If you told me 8 years ago that they would release LADD at $599 and Genesis at $299 I would laugh. That's knowing your market, adapting and making your way into the templates of a wider audience.

Orchestral Tools got that and went for the big bucks with their recent releases. I am curious to see what they will reveal on Jan 22.


----------



## HelixK

tim727 said:


> I'm currently struggling a bit with deciding what to do. I don't think I'm capable enough yet as an orchestral composer to be able to justify spending over 1000 on one library. Part of me (*realllly*) wants to just get CSB right now but then I worry that they'll release this for like 700-800 and then I'll regret my decision. Ugh ...



There's absolutely no way you will regret CSB. Like zero chance.


----------



## Brian Nowak

HelixK said:


> There's absolutely no way you will regret CSB. Like zero chance.



Seconded. I'm curious to see what Audiobros pulls off as well but at the price I paid for CSB (being a CSS owner) it is the highest quality to money investment I've made into a sample library. Absolutely whips the snot out of Cinebrass Core/Pro in my experiments so far, which was my true dedicated brass library.


----------



## Casiquire

I understand skepticism towards their claims of a surprisingly low price, but I don't understand skepticism toward their claims of being next-gen and not cutting corners. Coming short of that standard would be quite out of character.

As far as the price point for Genesis, to be fair it's a fifth the amount of sections that LASS has. It has more types of legato, but that's still smaller in scope in the end. It makes sense for it to be cheaper. LADD is the odd one out in terms of price.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Casiquire said:


> I understand skepticism towards their claims of a surprisingly low price, but I don't understand skepticism toward their claims of being next-gen and not cutting corners. Coming short of that standard would be quite out of character.
> 
> As far as the price point for Genesis, to be fair it's a fifth the amount of sections that LASS has. It has more types of legato, but that's still smaller in scope in the end. It makes sense for it to be cheaper. LADD is the odd one out in terms of price.



Part of it is just people's experiences with some big brand developers that do cut corners. It has made people wary. Part of it is that many people feel like we're taking a point of depreciating return with how much more advanced sampling can get with the current technologies we have available. 

And part of it is that this is the internet, where opinions abound without any real reason as to why they exist.


----------



## HelixK

Casiquire said:


> As far as the price point for Genesis, to be fair it's a fifth the amount of sections that LASS has. It has more types of legato, but that's still smaller in scope in the end. It makes sense for it to be cheaper.



I think it was Strezov who said that sampling children is the worst thing one can do to oneself lol Hence my surprise when I saw Genesis' intro price.

EDIT. found it! "Recording Arva was the hardest thing we did in our company history - I think that sampling children is probably the worst thing one can do to oneself"


----------



## Casiquire

HelixK said:


> I think it was Strezov who said that sampling children is the worst thing one can do to oneself lol Hence my surprise when I saw Genesis' intro price.
> 
> EDIT. found it! "Recording Arva was the hardest thing we did in our company history - I think that sampling children is probably the worst thing one can do to oneself"



That's hilarious! Thanks for the quote


----------



## Brian Nowak

HelixK said:


> I think it was Strezov who said that sampling children is the worst thing one can do to oneself lol Hence my surprise when I saw Genesis' intro price.
> 
> EDIT. found it! "Recording Arva was the hardest thing we did in our company history - I think that sampling children is probably the worst thing one can do to oneself"



Having taught young children guitar professionally (but only one at a time) I can only imagine trying to sample a whole bunch of them simultaneously. Talk about a nightmare.


----------



## Hanu_H

I really don't believe it would cost over a 1000€. If you look at the current competition there is a lot of good brass libraries available under 500€. My guess is it's in the same range with BB, 800€ with a possible intro offer of 699€.

-Hannes


----------



## tim727

HelixK said:


> There's absolutely no way you will regret CSB. Like zero chance.



Well I'm not saying I'll dislike CSB. That seems almost impossible. All I'm saying is if MSB ends up being attractively priced and I've already bought CSB theoretically I might be a bit bitter because it would be nice to have the extensive instruments and functionality that MSB seems like it will provide  I recently bought BWW and I'm really loving having access to all the solo instruments and building my own sections, so even ignoring all the other factors that is something that really appeals to me about MSB ...


----------



## richhickey

Guy Rowland said:


> I've long thought if you want a sense of a library's true breadth and depth, don't just look at the size on disk, divide that by the number of mic positions.



Exactly. Then multiply that by 2 and subtract from the total to get a sense of how much space on your SSDs you will likely be wasting for mics you never use. More modular installations, or library disk management tools would be most welcome.


----------



## JohannesR

NoamL said:


> I'm comfortable guessing it'll be over $1000. Maybe over $1500, and maybe, if all the marketing is telling the truth, it could be yet more than that.
> 
> Sampling is a *hypercube*, i.e. a volume with four dimensions
> 
> One dimension is the number of playable instruments, each of which represents a recording session of a soloist or group of musicians (Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola...)
> 
> The second dimension is the number of microphones simultaneously capturing each note (close, tree, far...)
> 
> The third dimension is the number of articulations available for each note on the instrument (pizzicato, legato, tremolo...)
> 
> And the fourth dimension is how deeply each articulation is sampled (how many round robins, velocity layers, legato transitions...).
> 
> *That is why every sample library cuts a corner somewhere.* Because everything is multiplied by everything else.
> 
> You start sampling a string orchestra, and you go "Let's sample sustains with true _con sordino_!" And then you realize that means sampling every sustained note all over again, for all five string sessions, at multiple dynamic levels, and cutting and looping the samples for every mic. And then you go "Let's EQ our sustain samples to fake _con sordino_!"
> 
> There is a reason @Rctec has been sampling his orchestra for decades...
> 
> Another corollary of this way at looking at library development, is you realize that many libraries are "puffed up" with fluff articulations. You know why every string library has Bartok snaps? Because they're easy one-shot samples, and you can get away with only one or two dynamic layers per note and maybe not even round robins. And you get to add it to the feature list, while truly valuable things like recording another dynamic layer on EVERY articulation of EVERY note of EVERY instrument, is inviting Multiplication Hell to descend upon you, and it's an invisible feature... only people who really care about realism will even notice...
> 
> But when you're sampling the main articulations, like sustains, there's nowhere to hide. Every inch you add on to one dimension means multiplying by the other three.
> 
> So when you compare MSB to these other libraries, let's look at the dimensions.
> 
> We can look at just the first two dimensions I mentioned.
> 
> Just let your eyes drift lazily over these numbers...
> 
> *Trailer Brass
> 2* mics + *1* mix
> *3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)
> 
> *Performance Samples Caspian
> 3* mics
> *3 *recording sessions (3 ensembles)
> 
> *Adventure Brass
> 2* mics + *1 *mix
> *5* recording sessions (1 soloist, 3 ensembles, but the trumpet ensemble has a soloist overlay).
> 
> *AudioImperia Jaeger* (just the brass component)
> *4* mics + *1* mix
> *4* recording sessions (4 ensembles)
> 
> *Heavyocity FORZO
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *6* recording sessions (6 ensembles)
> *
> Cinematic Studio Brass
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *8* recording sessions (5 soloists, 3 ensembles)
> 
> *Native Instruments Symphonic Brass
> 3* mics + *1 *mix
> *9* recording sessions (5 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> *
> Cinebrass Pro
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *10* recording sessions (4 soloists, 6 ensembles)
> 
> *Bravura Scoring Brass
> 3* mics
> *10* recording sessions (6 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> 
> *8Dio Century Brass
> 3* mics + *1* mix
> *13* recording sessions (7 soloists, 6 ensembles)*
> 
> Hollywood Brass Platinum
> 5* mics
> *11* recording sessions (5 soloists, 6 ensembles)
> 
> *Berlin Brass
> 6* mics
> *14* recording sessions (11 soloists, 3 ensembles)
> *
> Spitfire Studio Brass
> 6* mics + *2 *mixes
> *17* recording sessions (13 soloists, 4 ensembles)
> 
> *Spitfire Symphonic Brass
> 3* mics + *4* more in the mic expansion + *3* custom mixes
> *16* recording sessions (8 soloists, 8 ensembles)
> 
> Remember I am not saying that larger libraries are better. I am just pointing out that it's a budget thing. Cinematic Studio series is decidedly aimed at the "no frills" budget library category, at the same time it is wonderful, musical, and consistent.
> 
> and now...
> 
> 
> *Modern Scoring Brass
> 4* mics + *1* mix
> *28* recording sessions (30 soloists, but the last four horns were recorded in pairs)
> 
> *that's why it's not gonna be $400.* It doesn't matter what other libraries are released or what their prices are.
> 
> BTW this exact logic is why I am a skeptic of this library. It is a massive, ambitious, unprecedented, ridiculous leap forward in one dimension of that sampling hypercube. So what else got compromised? Well, according to the marketing, *nothing*: there is the fairly standard 3 mic position setup (with added independent control of Decca C vs LR); there is a reported dynamic range of "_ppp _through _fff_"; and the articulation list is thorough with multiple attack sustains, legatos, multiple shorts, mutes on every major instrument, and the standard special techniques. PLUS the library is controlled with specially programmed, advanced divisi scripts and a staging engine. So how the dingdong is this thing not going to end up at $3000?


Good analysis, yet it doesn’t take into consideration probably the most important factor cost wise: You can record at a fraction of the price in Eastern Europe compared to LA. I would not be surprised if the cost pr. session for Hollywood Brass/Cinebrass is 5-10 times the price pr. session for MSB.


----------



## Hanu_H

JohannesR said:


> Good analysis, yet it doesn’t take into consideration probably the most important factor cost wise: You can record at a fraction of the price in Eastern Europe compared to LA. I would not be surprised if the cost pr. session for Hollywood Brass/Cinebrass is 5-10 times the price pr. session for MSB.


Yes. And when recording soloist, instead of sections, you don't have to have the whole section there at once. Of course it's gonna cost more, but recording 8 horns is not gonna cost 8 times the ensemble recordings.

-Hannes


----------



## Architekton

Casiquire said:


> Ima nas par ovdje, pozdrav.
> 
> I'm not sure why certain locations are blocked, but they're usually pretty quiet about it



Hey, pozdrav, ja sam mislio da sam jedini iz Hrvatske ovdje. 

Its sad they treat us like this, they can unblock their site million times now but I wont give them a cent. They really dont deserve it.


----------



## jamwerks

I got out ye ol' calculator, they've probably spent somewhere between $500k and $1million on this one. The price may not be fixed, but it was undoubtedly one of first things they considered even before recording the first note; what it would cost to produce a library with given characteristics, and how many potential buyers at different price points. They'll have to fine tune the last point to get the most benefit

There's probably a 5 year plan to spread out earnings (e.g. 3k buyers world-wide upfront at $1200, 500 buyers through month 24 at $1500, 5k buyers of lite version at $600 (month 18), 5k buyers at sale price $999 at month 36, etc...)

The variables can be many; how well received, how much competition, etc.
If all goes right, they can even make 10x their investment, but there's always a potential loss should something unforeseen happen (room sound doesn't please, auto-divisi turns out too cumbersome, etc...)


----------



## HelixK

jamwerks said:


> The variables can be many; how well received, how much competition, etc.
> If all goes right, they can even make 10x their investment, but there's always a potential loss should something unforeseen happen (room sound doesn't please, auto-divisi turns out too cumbersome, etc...)



This comment made me hopeful that MSB could potentially be something special



Patrick de Caumette said:


> I was fortunate to hear the recordings for Audiobro's MSB over the summer, and i can tell you that the captured tone is exquisite.
> It blows away everything i own.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

It certainly did cost a fortune to produce this library based on the features.
But they will certainly be more likely to make that money back rather soon of they price it in the 400 - 800 range, rather than 1000 - 1500. Far fewer people will be able to justify 1000 - 1500 dollar on a sample library, no matter how great it is.
But if you have a library that is more in depth and better executed (in theory) than most or all other libraries at a somewhat more affordable price... 

Well, not sure the market works like that in practice, but seems logical IMO.


----------



## Hanu_H

If you look at Audiobro's other libraries, especially their latest Genesis library(normal price $399), they have a really competitive pricing. Other children choir libraries don't have the same functionality but the price is still cheaper than 8dio Liberis($498) and same as Strezov Arva($399) or Soundiron Mercury($399). I would be really shocked if they would go a lot higher than Berlin Brass main library, which would be their main competition.

-Hannes


----------



## prodigalson

jamwerks said:


> e.g. 3k buyers world-wide upfront at $1200, 500 buyers through month 24 at $1500, 5k buyers of lite version at $600 (month 18), 5k buyers at sale price $999 at month 36, etc...)



I think you may be underestimating the size of the market for sample libraries. You could probably triple those numbers.


----------



## CT

As expensive as this may have been to produce, think about how little Audiobro has done overall. They're probably still raking in very handsome profits from LASS alone, profits which have been adding up for around 8 years at a steadily decreasing, but still very substantial price. And these profits haven't been put under much strain by new undertakings.

I think there's a chance that they were able to put a lot of cash into MSB while still being comfortable enough to offer it at a "pleasantly surprising" price, which will likely get them more profit in the long run than a more exclusive "pro" price point would.


----------



## Casiquire

I love all the speculation! Can't wait to get answers.



Hanu_H said:


> If you look at Audiobro's other libraries, especially their latest Genesis library(normal price $399), they have a really competitive pricing. Other children choir libraries don't have the same functionality but the price is still cheaper than 8dio Liberis($498) and same as Strezov Arva($399) or Soundiron Mercury($399). I would be really shocked if they would go a lot higher than Berlin Brass main library, which would be their main competition.
> 
> -Hannes



BB is EXACTLY the library I had in mind, plus Dimension Brass, when thinking the 700s seemed reasonable


----------



## haydn12

I don't think the market for libraries is as big as mentioned above especially with the current competition. The average library probably doesn't sell more than a couple thousand copies. Many sample library companies quit doing NAMM and other trade shows as they can't justify the cost with what they sell. 

Jim


----------



## tim727

In my admittedly uneducated opinion I second the notion that the sample library market is not that large. I can't really imagine that there are that many composers out there that are willing/able to shell out many hundreds of dollars for sample libs? It's not exactly that common a profession.


----------



## DocMidi657

I'm glad Jim that you mentioned total sales in your post and inserted a bit of reality into the thread. I aways cringe a bit when reading these speculation posts on costs because there seems to be this feeling from some folks on the forum that sample developers are these large "companies" and that this market they sell to is way bigger then it really is. They aren't and the market is extremely small/niche. When I read some of the posts it makes me think we believe these companies are the size of General Electric! I believe every sale for a sample developer is pretty important for them and most of the sample developers are probably more like one or two man operations. But because of the wonders of Photoshop, websites and Final Cut Pro the marketing image projected might make one think they are much bigger. When I worked for Ensoniq we only had or needed for that matter something like 6 or 7 regional sales reps for the entire United States and this was at the height of our sales of the Mirage and EPS. The DX7 was an anomaly and sold 200,000 units and I think they still hold the record. No one came close to that in sales and I know we did not (and we were considered a big company at NAMM by the size of our booth in relation to others) and these keyboard type products we sold would appeal to way more people like the Church Market, Studios, Schools, Weekend Warriors, Students, and Professional Musicians (The smallest market btw) then someone willing to spend $700 for a download of digitized violin recordings so they can compose with "True Legato"  Yes I know Spitfire is a tiny bit of an exception because they have a few people on staff but keep in mind it wasn't too long ago that Paul and Christian were answering tech support questions. Accoring to Wikapedia Moog sold 12,000 Minimoog synthesizers in 11 years. That's about 20 sales a week and I wonder if that number would be on the high side for a sample developer averaging out over the life of a specific library.


----------



## Casiquire

prodigalson said:


> I think you may be underestimating the size of the market for sample libraries. You could probably triple those numbers.



I have a feeling that might be a high end estimate myself


----------



## NoamL

Hanu_H said:


> I would be really shocked if they would go a lot higher than Berlin Brass main library, which would be their main competition.



Well including the mutes, BB is $1,260, or even $1,500 with the auxiliary brass.


----------



## Casiquire

NoamL said:


> Well including the mutes, BB is $1,260, or even $1,500 with the auxiliary brass.



You're killing my buzz


----------



## prodigalson

DocMidi657 said:


> I'm glad Jim that you mentioned total sales in your post and inserted a bit of reality into the thread. I aways cringe a bit when reading these speculation posts on costs because there seems to be this feeling from some folks on the forum that sample developers are these large "companies" and that this market they sell to is way bigger then it really is. They aren't and the market is extremely small/niche. When I read some of the posts it makes me think we believe these companies are the size of General Electric! I believe every sale for a sample developer is pretty important for them and most of the sample developers are probably more like one or two man operations. But because of the wonders of Photoshop, websites and Final Cut Pro the marketing image projected might make one think they are much bigger. When I worked for Ensoniq we only had or needed for that matter something like 6 or 7 regional sales reps for the entire United States and this was at the height of our sales of the Mirage and EPS. The DX7 was an anomaly and sold 200,000 units and I think they still hold the record. No one came close to that in sales and I know we did not (and we were considered a big company at NAMM by the size of our booth in relation to others) and these keyboard type products we sold would appeal to way more people like the Church Market, Studios, Schools, Weekend Warriors, Students, and Professional Musicians (The smallest market btw) then someone willing to spend $700 for a download of digitized violin recordings so they can compose with "True Legato"  Yes I know Spitfire is a tiny bit of an exception because they have a few people on staff but keep in mind it wasn't too long ago that Paul and Christian were answering tech support questions. Accoring to Wikapedia Moog sold 12,000 Minimoog synthesizers in 11 years. That's about 20 sales a week and I wonder if that number would be on the high side for a sample developer averaging out over the life of a specific library.



Sure, you might be right, I dont have hard facts to suggest otherwise. I would only argue that we’re not talking about $3500 synthesizers in the 80s. The market and world is very different now in the internet age after the great democratization of the music industry. Production is different, supply is different. Now that everyone and their mother can create music in their bedroom that 30 years ago would have needed a $100,000 in recording equipment, it means that there are exponentially more people trying to do it. I can’t help but see the meteoric drop in prices of high end libraries we’ve seen in just the last 5-10 years as evidence of that.

Yes, spitfire may be a relative outlier but their YouTube channel has over 50,000 subscribers. Just peruse YouTube and there is what seems (to me) and infinite number of channels showing their off production music, publishing tutorials, doing reviews etc etc. And all of just sample libraries.

No one is suggesting these companies are the size of GE but in 2018 you don’t have to be more than a handful of people to create and sell 10,000 units of a sample library.

Even on vi control I’ve personally noticed that every year or so there is a whole new “generation” of members contributing.


----------



## markleake

Yes, I think people underestimate the current size of the market, especially over the last 5 years when it has moved down into what you'd call the "prosumer" level.

Look at the number of people reading just this forum at any given time.

If you have a good product that appeals to a fair percentage of the VI market, and a good brand name to go with it, the current market could support volumes a lot higher than 4-5 years ago, and hence much lower costs. This seems to be bourne out by Spitfire's approach at least.

I make no predictions of their pricing though.   (Please be cheap!)


----------



## DocMidi657

prodigalson said:


> Sure, you might be right, I don't have hard facts to suggest otherwise. I would only argue that we’re not talking about $3500 synthesizers in the 80s. The market and world is very different now in the internet age after the great democratization of the music industry. Production is different, supply is different. Now that everyone and their mother can create music in their bedroom that 30 years ago would have needed a $100,000 in recording equipment, it means that there are exponentially more people trying to do it. I can’t help but see the meteoric drop in prices of high end libraries we’ve seen in just the last 5-10 years as evidence of that.
> 
> Yes, spitfire may be a relative outlier but their YouTube channel has over 50,000 subscribers. Just peruse YouTube and there is what seems (to me) and infinite number of channels showing their off production music, publishing tutorials, doing reviews etc etc. And all of just sample libraries.
> 
> No one is suggesting these companies are the size of GE but in 2018 you don’t have to be more than a handful of people to create and sell 10,000 units of a sample library.
> 
> Even on vi control I’ve personally noticed that every year or so there is a whole new “generation” of members contributing.


I hear you Prodigalson and completely agree with you on alot of what you said especially your point that the amount of money one needs to create music has dropped significantly which I also contend killed the studio business that used to exist all over the world along with Napster that killed the recording industry as we used to know it (check out drummer Vinny Caluiatta's talk on YouTube about that, it's eye opening) but a few things to maybe consider. Your point regarding "$3500 synths" in the 80's is high..at Ensoniq we knew very well what the "magic number" was to stay in business and that was $1500 or lower and so did Yamaha btw. The three men I worked for that started the company knew the ropes of marketing technology really well as prior to their venture creating Ensoniq they had brought the Commodore 64 computer to mass market rather successfully. We knew a higher price would not sell and we had our eyes on Emu Systems and were getting our sales based on our number as at that time their product was around 10K. I traveled quite extensively for many years granted it was some years back  and my experience was the market for this stuff is really small from the way I see it bantered about by some on VI Control. Before I did all the traveling I admit I thought it was waaaay bigger. Have you ever wondered why even today companies like Korg, Yamaha and Roland have never ventured in any significant way into creating, marketing and selling sample libraries? I mean trust me they have the resources, know how and people to to do this... they don't because they know that market is way smaller then the small market they have to sell to in which they package "their sample libraries" in a hardware based product. And please don't get me wrong I think the sample developers are great and have great respect for them, I believe they have an extremely time intensive job and take on a huge amount of risk for the potential financial reward of in reality who they can sell their finished product to.


----------



## prodigalson

DocMidi657 said:


> Your point regarding "$3500 synths" in the 80's is high..at Ensoniq we knew very well what the "magic number" was to stay in business and that was $1500 or lower and so did Yamaha btw.



Ok but I was simply referencing the current cost of the keyboard, the minimoog, you used as a comparative example. Also, the DX7 according to Wikipedia cost $1,995 in 1983 an equivalent of over $5,000 today.

Again, you may well be right but I don't think you can take the reluctance of a handful of traditional hardware companies to throw themselves into sample library development as definitive proof (although Roland has been investing in development of it's "Cloud") because there are dozens more companies that have arrived in the last 5-10 years doing specifically that and it seems more and more every week. When I started using sample libraries 6 years ago the only real contenders were EW, Garritan, ProjectSAM and VSL. Cinesamples was brand new with Cinebrass, Spitfire was relatively new with Albion and a couple other libraries. Now we have Orchestral Tools and so many more. These companies obviously believe there is a strong market for their products. Whoever was the angel investor recently capitalizing Spitfire Audio obviously did the math and saw a worthwhile investment.

Another thing. VI Control in the last year or so has felt like much less of an informational, technique based forum as much as it is endless discussions and comparisons of the latest thing on the market. We don't discuss using libraries we just talk about which one we should buy next. I've long thought the tag line of the forum should now be "Musicians helping musicians spend money".


----------



## DocMidi657

Have you ever been to a NAMM Show?


----------



## prodigalson

DocMidi657 said:


> Have you ever been to a NAMM Show?



Yes


----------



## haydn12

I was just talking to a sample developer at the January, 2018 NAMM and he is about ready to get out of the business as he doesn't make any money. He is one of the original companies that has been around for 20 years. Piracy has hit his business heavily. 

Spitfire may have 50,000 followers but how many of those people pirate their libraries. Of those 50,000 followers, most have only purchased a few of their libraries. I currently only have one of their libraries.

As mentioned before, most of the companies are only 1-2 employees and may hire part-time help to program. Some of the bigger companies such Orchestral Tools probably only have about 4-5 employees. 

I remember a booth I worked in at NAMM that the company only had 1 full-time employee but brought on extra people to do demos that wore company shirts so it made the company look bigger. This was a common practice with many of the companies. 

Jim


----------



## jamwerks

Seeing what OT put out this year, I'd say there's at least 15 employees.

I read here recently that VSL has over 70,000 customers (probably including VEP). 

Piracy is a big problem. That's one of the reasons SF is developing their own player, and probably why OT will announce that they are moving to Halion (speculation on my part).


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

jamwerks said:


> Seeing what OT put out this year, I'd say there's at least 15 employees.
> 
> I read here recently that VSL has over 70,000 customers (probably including VEP).
> 
> Piracy is a big problem. That's one of the reasons SF is developing their own player, and probably why OT will announce that they are moving to Halion (speculation on my part).


But that hopefully won't be their "groundbreaking announcement". I think everyone will be dissapointed because I think everyone prefers Kontakt and they expect a new cool library!


----------



## jbuhler

jamwerks said:


> Piracy is a big problem. That's one of the reasons SF is developing their own player, and probably why OT will announce that they are moving to Halion (speculation on my part).


I don't know. It would be weird to have done that NI sale and ported all their stuff to NKS only then to shift to Halion. But who knows? OT's business practices often strike me as odd, so this would fit right into that.

I think CH said on one of his vlogs that Spitfire had more than 40 employees.


----------



## jamwerks

That's one of the reasons of the big OT sales of recent, they won't be revisiting those libraries, and they're leaving the platform (again, all speculation on my part) 

Pretty sure SF has around 65 employees...


----------



## Hanu_H

jamwerks said:


> Pretty sure SF has around 65 employees...


Jesus, that's a lot of money for salaries per month...

-Hannes


----------



## jbuhler

jamwerks said:


> That's one of the reasons of the big OT sales of recent, they won't be revisiting those libraries, and they're leaving the platform (again, all speculation on my part)
> 
> Pretty sure SF has around 65 employees...


But why pay to update them to NKS if they are abandoning them?


----------



## muziksculp

Steinberg just hired OT as a full time, in-house, sample development team, exclusively for their Halion Platform, provided they stop developing for NI Kontakt. Hehe.. Just a crazy thought


----------



## muziksculp

Looking forward to the release of Audiobro's Modern Scoring Brass (MSB) in Q1-2019, and LASS 3 during Q2 or Q3 2019. I know I will be buying both of these libraries, hopefully the price is reasonable.


----------



## germancomponist

muziksculp said:


> Steinberg just hired OT as a full time, in-house, sample development team, exclusively for their Halion Platform, provided they stop developing for NI Kontakt. Hehe.. Just a crazy thought


What an interesting hypothesis! I think OT always wanted to do the best. If that's true what you say, we'll soon see and hear that Halion far surpasses the Kontakt Sampler. I'm curious ... .


----------



## HelixK

germancomponist said:


> What an interesting hypothesis! I think OT always wanted to do the best. If that's true what you say, we'll soon see and hear that Halion far surpasses the Kontakt Sampler. I'm curious ... .



I have almost zero experience with Halion... what are some of the strengths compared to Kontakt?


----------



## germancomponist

HelixK said:


> I have almost zero experience with Halion... what are some of the strengths compared to Kontakt?


Me too. I built Halion Sampler many years ago and realised it was unable to do the most things what Kontakt Sampler was doing well ... .


----------



## erica-grace

jamwerks said:


> I got out ye ol' calculator, they've probably spent somewhere between $500k and $1million on this one.



Calculator? which one? LOL

I don't have prices, but there's no way it can cost anywhere near that.

Think about how much the hall is for the day, how much each musician is for the day, and how much material there is.

I am not saying it was 20k - no way. But half a mil? No way.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Firstly, I’m excited by the potential of this library on paper. Just keeping my powder dry for now until we see/hear something more concrete. I could easily see me having both MSB and CSB (over time). Whether I need something like MSB is another discussion entirely, but for now, I’m very interested.

Secondly on discussions around the size of potential market (I have no hard data, only more speculation) is MSB’s market size potentially impacted by the fact it’s an Orchestral library? I could be wrong (see above) but it seems that a lot of the online resources around producing and writing are for modern pop/edm/hip-hop and relatively little is focused on Orchestral music. Sometimes you can extrapolate but not always. Does this mean the potential market for a product like MSB is sliced even thinner? Maybe the naming of the library is self-aware in that regard and trying to widen its appeal. Maybe it will have articulations and a sound that could be useful to a pop writer.

Time will tell, I guess.

Oh, and a very happy new year to everyone on VI-C.


----------



## kevthurman

Alright, it's Q1 2019, now shut up and take my money audiobro!


----------



## Geoff Grace

Still 2018 at Audiobro (in LA). Just sayin'… 

Happy old year from 2018, everyone!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Consona

So this library won't have ensembles sampled? Do I understand it correctly? So you sample like 8 trumpets and 8 horns, but not their ensemble at least once? That's weird, more so when you just can't get an ensemble sound from multiple solo instruments.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Consona said:


> So this library won't have ensembles sampled? Do I understand it correctly? So you sample like 8 trumpets and 8 horns, but not their ensemble at least once? That's weird, more so when you just can't get an ensemble sound from multiple solo instruments.



Why you cant? Heh? Sure you can..


----------



## Consona

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Why you cant? Heh? Sure you can..


6 sampled solo horns put together do not sound like a sampled 6 horns ensemble. Or does it...? I know sample modeling makes ensembles out of solo instruments and it sounds pretty good so maybe you could prove me wrong.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Consona said:


> 6 sampled solo horns put together do not sound like a sampled 6 horns ensemble. Or does it...? I know sample modeling makes ensembles out of solo instruments and it sounds pretty good so maybe you could prove me wrong.



Its surely cool to have a recorded 4 or 6 horn ensemble, though, that doesn´t mean you cant build an ensemble sound of out solo instruments. It takes more work though, especially with modeled instruments. With sampled instruments you have to work also with subtractive eq because 4 single horns playing unison tend have a higher built up in frequency which you have to take care. But the cool thing is also that you can shape each performance and make each take a bit more individual. Sure it takes more work to do that. And chords tend to sound a way more natural instead of using a 4 or 6 horn patch which sounds very overpowering and a way too thick.


----------



## Hanu_H

From Berlin Brass website:


Build your own Sections and create realistic voicings with: 
- 4 individual Horns
- 3 individual Trumpets
- 2 individual Trombones + 1 Bass Trombone
- 1 Tuba


-Hannes


----------



## Consona

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Its surely cool to have a recorded 4 or 6 horn ensemble, though, that doesn´t mean you cant build an ensemble sound of out solo instruments. It takes more work though, especially with modeled instruments. With sampled instruments you have to work also with subtractive eq because 4 single horns playing unison tend have a higher built up in frequency which you have to take care. But the cool thing is also that you can shape each performance and make each take a bit more individual. Sure it takes more work to do that. And chords tend to sound a way more natural instead of using a 4 or 6 horn patch which sounds very overpowering and a way too thick.


Yea, every approach has it's own pros and cons, I was just surprised so many solo instruments were sampled here, yet no bigger ensembles. I'm waiting for demos, really curios if that solo to ensemble style can sound as good as say 90s Retro Trumpets (3+1) or CineBrass ensembles. 



Hanu_H said:


> From Berlin Brass website:
> 
> 
> Build your own Sections and create realistic voicings with:
> - 4 individual Horns
> - 3 individual Trumpets
> - 2 individual Trombones + 1 Bass Trombone
> - 1 Tuba
> 
> 
> -Hannes


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Consona said:


> Yea, every approach has it's own pros and cons, I was just surprised so many solo instruments were sampled here, yet no bigger ensembles. I'm waiting for demos, really curios if that solo to ensemble style can sound as good as say 90s Retro Trumpets (3+1) or CineBrass ensembles.




One aspect: Too perfect pitch and tuning, and to perfect timing. Creating that ensemble only works when you really know how to detune each single unit and perform it right. It can work, I experiemented a lot with bone dry instruments from SM but its not like instant gratification and therefore many folks don´t dive deeper into that rabbit hole because there is a lot of fail attempts and that doesn´t motivate people much.


----------



## Guy Rowland

I'd have thought the detuning / humanising aspects will all be in the Audiobro engine, and have defaults that Just Work.


----------



## Blakus

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> One aspect: Too perfect pitch and tuning, and to perfect timing. Creating that ensemble only works when you really know how to detune each single unit and perform it right. It can work, I experiemented a lot with bone dry instruments from SM but its not like instant gratification and therefore many folks don´t dive deeper into that rabbit hole because there is a lot of fail attempts and that doesn´t motivate people much.


I’ve never heard this work convincingly, (I tried for years too). Happy to be proven otherwise though! I’m very interested to see how this goes, not recording any ensembles is a bold move.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

First, it's all about divisi, and playability. The "continuous adaptive legato" is one of the new features I'm really excited of.

The only ensemble they recorded are horns a2. I think horns are tricky to achieve with solo instruments. Maybe it's not necessary with trumpets etc. The Audiobros are very smart guys, and I'm really looking forward to this library. They know what they are doing.

@Guy Rowland 
I also think that detuning and humanising is the most important aspect in this library, as well as in LASS. For divisi it's great. 

I made a post in the Audiobro forum and Andrew thinks this is their "best library" so far. For me, LASS has always been "the best", so this makes me even more looking forward to MSB.


----------



## HelixK

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I made a post in the Audiobro forum and Andrew thinks this is their "best library" so far. For me, LASS has always been "the best", so this makes me even more looking forward to MSB.



Great quote but you are not making the wait any easier lol


----------



## sinkd

I will be down for this. I would bet that there will be ensemble "Auto Arranger" patches that will be fantastic. Easily turned off (like in LASS) so that you can perform unison lines a2, a3, a4, etc. Add the 2 horns patch to horns a4 and there you go.


----------



## brenneisen

Blakus said:


> not recording any ensembles is a bold move.



nice euphemism, I'd call it a not very intelligent move

(which is an euphemism as well)


----------



## muziksculp

21 Days remaining to the end of Q1-2019. 

Which means...... it's getting closer for _Audiobro_ to release *MSB*


----------



## muziksculp

Also noticed that _Audiobro_ has the system requirements for *MSB* posted on their website. 

Library Size:

About 160GB with loss-less compressed audio files (approximately 260GB uncompressed). 300GB required during installation.

Requires Kontakt Player 5.8 or later.


----------



## Dave Connor

Let's hope so. My Hollywood Brass solo bones were bumming me out yesterday so I was thinking about this library.


----------



## muziksculp

haha.. I'm getting a kick by just visiting the_ Audiobro_ *MSB* product page, and reading about all the cool features this library will offer. It's quite a big step forward for a Brass library. 

I'm also looking forward to *LASS 3* to be released maybe during Q2-2019. 

https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

There is some information on the official forum:

The patches all had gone to NI for encoding, came back and are now being tested. Audiobro isn't expecting major issues and is working on presets etc. now. They are hoping for an end-of-march release. 

And Andrew said that there will be some more features (”niceties“) that haven't been mentioned yet, e.g. aleatoric patches, similar to LASS.

Fingers crossed! I'm definitely looking forward to this, hoping that the price won't be that high.


----------



## sostenuto

muziksculp said:


> haha.. *************
> I'm also looking forward to *LASS 3* to be released maybe during Q2-2019.



Hopeful as well, but uncertain /hopeful in terms of MSB challenges and small (talented) Audiobro resources.
Happy LADD user. Have held off eons for top-tier Strings in favor of notable LASS Update.


----------



## CT

I really thought I was done. For a few years, at least. I really thought so.

If this is priced accessibly, *and* if LASS 3 is actually imminent....


----------



## jamwerks

I doubt LASS 3 would be immenent. Just given the time since Genesis, I don't see them pumping libraries out quickly....


----------



## muziksculp

jamwerks said:


> I doubt LASS 3 would be immenent. Just given the time since Genesis, I don't see them pumping libraries out quickly....



Maybe Audiobro will have a product page for LASS 3 a while ahead of its release, just like they have made a web page for MSB. This will be cool, and give us more info. regarding what LASS 3 will offer before it is officially released. 

So.. just guessing, LASS 3 could be out by end of Q2 or during Q3 of 2019. The sooner, the better.


----------



## kevthurman

hopefully this is the last modern scoring bump


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Maybe Audiobro will have a product page for LASS 3 a while ahead of its release, just like they have made a web page for MSB. This will be cool, and give us more info. regarding what LASS 3 will offer before it is officially released.
> 
> So.. just guessing, LASS 3 could be out by end of Q2 or during Q3 of 2019. The sooner, the better.



You know I'd actually like that. Of course I'd like it to just drop already but it should be expected that after a major release a second major release might not be quick


----------



## Guy Rowland

Casiquire said:


> You know I'd actually like that. Of course I'd like it to just drop already but it should be expected that after a major release a second major release might not be quick



Agreed. I love Audiobro, but part of the deal is that they take their time. Two huge releases in a few months doesn't fit the profile. The good news is that they tend to have excellent QC, so the wait should be worth it.

I see on the their forum that they said that demos and videos of MSB will come before release which is still slated for the end of the month, so hopefully we'll get our first taste of the library very soon.


----------



## kevthurman

Curious, as someone who has not purchased an Audiobro library before - Do they often have a launch/preorder discount like OT usually do?


----------



## Jack Weaver

kevthurman said:


> Curious, as someone who has not purchased an Audiobro library before - Do they often have a launch/preorder discount like OT usually do?


Historically yes, Andrew is no one's dummy.

.


----------



## jononotbono

I’ve finally got round to reading this whole thread. Am excited to see what MSB is like. I’ve actually never bought LASS and always thought about it with the good things people have said about it. Kind of intrigued about all of Audiobro’s libraries at this point.


----------



## Lassi Tani

Just read in Audiobro Forum that two more weeks until the release. Andrew also posted some initial comments about the library from composers, and they were very positive (especially trumpets)! Very exciting!


----------



## kevthurman

sekkosiki said:


> Just read in Audiobro Forum that two more weeks until the release. Andrew also posted some initial comments about the library from composers, and they were very positive (especially trumpets)! Very exciting!


I'm sitting here working on a cue with the hollywood trumpets and boy did I really need this to remind me of the future. haha!


----------



## I like music

The date on their website (Coming April 15th). Is that the release date, or is that when we expect to get teasers/demos? Or both at the same time?


----------



## lucor

I like music said:


> The date on their website (Coming April 15th). Is that the release date, or is that when we expect to get teasers/demos? Or both at the same time?


Pretty sure it's the actual release date. I hope we'll get some demos and walkthroughs before then.


----------



## I like music

lucor said:


> Pretty sure it's the actual release date. I hope we'll get some demos and walkthroughs before then.



I hope so too! Hopefully any minute now ...

MSBump...


----------



## Batrawi

Who the hell bumped this thread while everyone is impatiently awaiting the release anytime soon!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

that's a party foul


----------



## I like music

Does anyone know of any good string libraries?

I haven't tried searching to see if such a thread exists already, but all my senses tell me that this is the right thread to ask this question.

Thanks all!


----------



## kevthurman

I like music said:


> Does anyone know of any good string libraries?
> 
> I haven't tried searching to see if such a thread exists already, but all my senses tell me that this is the right thread to ask this question.
> 
> Thanks all!


----------



## kevthurman

well since someone else already bumped it I might as well ask if anyone with access to the forums has seen any updates?


----------



## I like music

kevthurman said:


>



Sorry, not sorry. At this point, I'm guessing that demos etc won't come any sooner than the release date (which on their site said Monday, I think?)


----------



## LHall

No, I'm sure no one around here is interested in anything like that. LOL. Hilarious. 



I like music said:


> Does anyone know of any good string libraries?
> 
> I haven't tried searching to see if such a thread exists already, but all my senses tell me that this is the right thread to ask this question.
> 
> Thanks all!


----------



## erica-grace

kevthurman said:


> well since someone else already bumped it I might as well ask if anyone with access to the forums has seen any updates?



Yep!


----------



## lucor

Looks like the estimated release date on the website has changed to April 19th.


----------



## Geoff Grace

They must be too busy doing their taxes right now.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## jamwerks

4 more days to save up!


----------



## kevthurman

Hopefully if they're going to keep pushing the date back they'll release demons to see if it's worth the wait...


----------



## Brian Nowak

kevthurman said:


> Hopefully if they're going to keep pushing the date back they'll release demons to see if it's worth the wait...



The power of Christ compels them... to keep their library demons in check.


----------



## kevthurman

Brian Nowak said:


> The power of Christ compels them... to keep their library demons in check.


Whoops. You know what I meant.


----------



## Lassi Tani

Apparently they pushed the release to 19th of April, but I don't mind, since I believe it's gonna be amazing! I hope they'll post demos soon, but I also know they want to do the release well.


----------



## sinkd

Until Friday, then. Good day.


----------



## Robert_G

Anyone want to give their best guess on price....maybe an intro offer?


----------



## erica-grace

Robert_G said:


> Anyone want to give their best guess on price....maybe an intro offer?



Assuming it's not modular, $699, with an intro price of $599

Of course there are going to be people who want it to be in the sub $400 range - assuming it's not modular, there is no way that's going to happen.


----------



## kevthurman

Robert_G said:


> Anyone want to give their best guess on price....maybe an intro offer?


I don't expect any lower than 5 or 6 hundred at the lowest. Maybe $1000+.


----------



## kevthurman

based on all the reported features it's either going to be really really expensive or not deliver on those promises. Maybe they're just really efficient but we have yet to see quite this many individual instruments with all these mixing/scripting features all in one library.


----------



## Mucusman

I'll chime in and hazzard a guess: $899 list, with a perpetual "sale" price of $699.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Robert_G said:


> Anyone want to give their best guess on price....maybe an intro offer?


----------



## jbuhler

kevthurman said:


> based on all the reported features it's either going to be really really expensive or not deliver on those promises. Maybe they're just really efficient but we have yet to see quite this many individual instruments with all these mixing/scripting features all in one library.


I'm guessing $1199 full, $999 intro, and perhaps a lite version at $499-$599. It's possible they might go a core/expansions route, like Berlin Brass (the total set of which should be the point of comparison on this library in terms of cost), in which case, the lite version becomes the core, and then there might be several expansions that total somewhere around $1200.


----------



## Robert_G

erica-grace said:


> Assuming it's not modular



Please excuse my dumbness....what does 'modular' mean?


----------



## erica-grace

That the developer would sell parts individually. ie - the library is sold as a whole, but you would also be able to buy just the horns, or just the trumpets, or just the solo instruments, etc.


----------



## Robert_G

jbuhler said:


> I'm guessing $1199 full, $999 intro, and perhaps a lite version at $499-$599. It's possible they might go a core/expansions route, like Berlin Brass (the total set of which should be the point of comparison on this library in terms of cost), in which case, the lite version becomes the core, and then there might be several expansions that total somewhere around $1200.



Maybe its just me, but i dont get any sense of multiple buying options....I see just one package....like their Genesis choir.


----------



## Robert_G

erica-grace said:


> That the developer would sell parts individually. ie - the library is sold as a whole, but you would also be able to buy just the horns, or just the trumpets, or just the solo instruments, etc.



Ok....that i understand....


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Robert_G said:


> Please excuse my dumbness....what does 'modular' mean?


Stove and burner


----------



## NoamL

$1200. if it's less than that it's cheaper than buying Berlin Brass + the mutes expansion, which would be surprising. I expect this to be one of the most expensive sample libraries to release in the last 3-4 years.

Keep in mind, CSB is 8 recording sessions (5 soloists & 3 ensembles), 8Dio Century Brass has 13 recording sessions, Berlin Brass has 14, Spitfire Studio Brass has 17, Modern Scoring Brass will have 38.

I don't see a lot (considering we've only seen the concept) to tempt me away from using CSB. That library is just awesome.


----------



## Geoff Grace

I'll guess $999, with an introductory price of $799.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Guy Rowland

Ah we’re price guessing again. Not much else to do I guess. Before, most folks settled around the $1k mark, and that still feels about right to me too. I’d be guessing $1.5k if it weren’t for the “cheaper than you’d expect” comment, so now of course we’re all expecting something somewhere in that figure. $500 is exceptionally unlikely imo, I’m putting my lowest-it-could-possibly-be intro offer at $799, but that too I think pretty unlikely.

BTW, isn’t Friday a holiday in the US too? Odd time to launch if so.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Audiobro can go a couple of directions with their pricings:

They can look at the market right now and the prices of competitors products and decide to charge something which is similiar to that. That might be not their targeted price what they would go lets say like the old days when they released L.A. Scoring Strings.

But they probably think about what the people these days are willing to pay for. And when I look at the constant sales going on throughout the last couple of years with quite some companies (8dio, Eastwest, Cinesamples and many more) the majority of people I guess are not going to pay a price of e.g. 1000 Dollars or even more for a brass library even if the production costs and capabilities of the library would probably justify that.

It is also the mindset of the people these days what they feel _is beeing expensive_. Whenever there is a developer charging more than lets say the usual common discount prices then there is a huge complaining about libraries beeing too expensive (recent example was Afflatus strings for instance).

I think many people have lost a healthy balance towards whats beeing expensive because the constant "get this for 80 percent of" or even "get product "b" for free if you buy product "a". There are quite some developers who have such often sales that you can say that nobody would go and pay the regular price for their libraries anymore because of these mechanisms the developers are celebrating.

Now I say that a high price can (apart from an economical point of view) add exclusivness to a product. Its a bit like with expensive cars, watches. I remember Spitfire libraries were in the old days a way more expensive but it was also that exclusive feeling that you have a special library with that Air Studios sound and the london players which know other library has given you. Thats a part of the marketing strategies.

Now there to put that in numbers a bit. Ascap & BMI has like around 950K composers together) but there are of course many more hobbiests and so the number is pretty hard to target really how many. I set the world to 1000 Composers in an experiment and lets say 2 percent would be like the working fulltime freelancers doing it professionally.

1. case: MSB aimed target price at 1000 Dollar

So from the 2% Pros (20 people) 80 percent would buy the library
and from the remaining
98 percent (980 people) 20 percent would buy the library:

Pros: 16 people X 1000 USD --> 16K USD
Non: 196 people x 1000 USD --> 196K USD

makes 212K Dollars

2. Now lets go and half the price at 500 which would probably mean almost all pros would buy it (e.g. 95 percent) but from Non Pros it would be 60 percent:

Pros: 19 people x 500 USD --> 9500 USD
Non: 588 people x 500 USD --> 294K USD

--> 303500 USD

3. Now lets go crazy and put the price to that hilarous discount bullshit like lets say 300 USD only with Pros 100 percent and non pros 80 percent

PROS: 20 people X 300 USD = 6000 USD
NON: 784 people x 300 USD = 235200 USD

--> 241200 USD

While in Case 2 it would be quite some more than case 1, case 3 would be a little more but less effective than in case 2. So a company who wants not only to create a great product has to think about economics quite a lot in order to find their "best" target price in order to maximize their profit.

Whatever route Audiobro is going for they will if they are clever go through all scenarios and analyze the shit out of the current market situation.

So in a nutshell Audiobro can let say market their product as super exclusive for 1000 Dollars but they won´t make first that much, but probably they will go and discount it later and breakeven their costs over 2 years in the end by doing sales after a year which is like one strategy. Its in the end a complex process and therefore you have to look very closely also how saturated the market is and what really new and great your product can bring to the people. There are allready a lot of descent brass libraries out there and many people are backed up with so many libraries that it will be not easy to find the perfect price which is not too low but not too high for profit maximization.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Alexander - you're sorta forgetting one very important part of the equation, which is a developer's own retail policies. MSB won't be Audiobro's first product, it's not a leap in the dark for them, so we can reasonably expect them to broadly follow the kinds of policies that they've done before rather than jump to a whole new paradigm.

It's been very long discussed that you could sell a downloadable sample library for $50 and make a lot more sales than $5,000. Every developer has their own take on that, and what their policies on sales are - is there an intro discount, group buys, regular / irregular / zero sales. East West work very differently to Spectrasonics, but they both seem to do very well financially. I prefer the latter, but that's just me.

In short, its wishful thinking to suddenly expect Audiobro to totally change the way they do business. They are towards the upper-end price-wise, though hardly exorbitant. Of course they'll be aware of the current market, and all the other upcoming future products. There's no way that they will say "because X is a brass library and goes on sale for $200, we should sell MSB at that too". There really isn't another product like MSB out there now, nor as far as we know on the horizon. Its unique in a few important ways, its a behemoth and its been in development for a decade.

Factor it all in with their one comment on the subject - "While the price is still to be determined, we believe you will be pleasantly surprised by comparison to the other offerings on the market, especially considering the depth and scope of Modern Scoring Brass", and I think most of us arrive around the $1k mark. Could be 20% less if we're really lucky... somehow I doubt it will launch at over $1k as its a big psychological barrier and they'd know the ruckus it would create. I think what I ended up saying before is RRP $1,400 and intro sale of $899, still sounds about right.

Pointless guessing game done for me for the day!


----------



## jamwerks

Absolutely no reason for AB to get all the money up front. With a library of this amplitude, they're looking at a multi-year strategy. Sales and/or modules down the line would be a way. Lite versions for hobbyists, etc. 

If they wanted to produce a $700 library, they wouldn't have done 4 distinct Cimbassi.

It all depends on how good it sounds, and flexible-musical it is. After years of development, maybe they're really got something here, in which case it will sell big even at a high price. I'd say an intro price of $1,199


----------



## chocobitz825

this is really how we spend time here....guessing prices lol


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

You know Guy, lets get that straight right here: I don´t say what they should do, I just showed some scenarios. I don´t care what they will charge tbh. I care for the quality of a product. They will make their decisions some or the other. Isn´t it tomorrow? Lets see.


----------



## Batrawi

Imagine if VI-C created a "Sample bets" forum for such speculation threads whereby you must pay a bet amount before you can comment!
-less bla bla (for everyone)
-more income (for VI-C)
-a free copy (for the winner)


----------



## chocobitz825

Batrawi said:


> Imagine if VI-C created a "Sample bets" forum for such speculation threads whereby you must pay a bet amount before you can comment!
> -less bla bla (for everyone)
> -more income (for VI-C)
> -a free copy (for the winner)




VI-Control

The true home for those with no impulse control.

Welcome to all people with buying AND gambling problems!


----------



## Denkii

chocobitz825 said:


> VI-Control
> 
> The true home for those with no impulse control.
> 
> Welcome to all people with buying AND gambling problems!


Why does this sound appealing...


----------



## I like music

jamwerks said:


> I'd say an intro price of $1,199



$1,198. Giving myself a good chance of winning the bet here.

Is there a bet here?


----------



## StevenOBrien

This thread right now:


----------



## jamwerks

I like music said:


> $1,198. Giving myself a good chance of winning the bet here.
> 
> Is there a bet here?


Hmm, I'll have to think about that!


----------



## ChristianM

wait and see


----------



## kevthurman

Robert_G said:


> Please excuse my dumbness....what does 'modular' mean?


Sold in parts. Like maybe the whole thing is $1200. Each section costs 400 each or something.


----------



## NoamL

Guy Rowland said:


> MSB won't be Audiobro's first product, it's not a leap in the dark for them, so we can reasonably expect them to broadly follow the kinds of policies that they've done before rather than jump to a whole new paradigm.



Yes! Such as not really having sales. That's one advantage they have (and OT used to have) - you don't feel bad paying full price because it's not likely they'll offer it for 40% off at Black Friday.

Speaking of OT, everyone should keep in mind Holkenbrass is coming too.


----------



## Geoff Grace

NoamL said:


> Speaking of OT, everyone should keep in mind Holkenbrass is coming too.


You're right. Beginning eight months ago with the release of Heavyocity Forzo (which is already on sale at 45% off)—and continuing with Spitfire Studio Brass and Cinematic Studio Brass—we're in the midst of a powerful wave of brass libraries!

Add in Modern Scoring Brass and Holkenbrass, and we are certainly being spoiled for choice!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Fitz

Any update on if this is releasing today?


----------



## Nicola74

Here in Italy it is 9.07 PM...?


----------



## kevthurman

Nicola74 said:


> Here in Italy it is 9.07 PM...?


Audiobro is from Los Angeles so it is 12pm there.


----------



## Saxer

I'm on 440 Hz


----------



## jamwerks

kevthurman said:


> Audiobro is from Los Angeles so it is 12pm there.


Thanks, we had no idea!


----------



## Nicola74

kevthurman said:


> Audiobro is from Los Angeles so it is 12pm there.


So there is still hope


----------



## Geocranium

jamwerks said:


> Thanks, we had no idea!



I always did wonder where the company that made Los Angeles Scoring Strings and Los Angeles Drama Drums was based in...


----------



## kevthurman

Geocranium said:


> I always did wonder where the company that made Los Angeles Scoring Strings and Los Angeles Drama Drums was based in...


Eh, in the age of the internet, so much is done remotely that you never know.


----------



## borisb2

Damn.. here in NZ it‘s already saturday morning the 20th !!


----------



## Fitz

So I guess it’s not coming today...?


----------



## Geoff Grace

There are still ten hours remaining until the 20th in LA, and three hours left until close of business for most local companies.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## awaey

they mean 19 April 2020...


----------



## robh

"Video almost done" was posted in the forum about 15 minutes ago!


----------



## Denkii

Go go go Renderhamster!


----------



## kevthurman

robh said:


> "Video almost done" was posted in the forum about 15 minutes ago!


The suspense is killing me


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Bump !


----------



## kevthurman




----------



## Fitz

kevthurman said:


> The suspense is killing me





robh said:


> "Video almost done" was posted in the forum about 15 minutes ago!


does that mean it’s coming?


----------



## robh

Fitz said:


> does that mean it’s coming?


No idea!


----------



## erica-grace

Fitz said:


> does that mean it’s coming?



Well, of course it is!


----------



## sostenuto

Fitz said:


> does that mean it’s coming?



in LA ….. not so sure what this means ??  …… maybe just br..... ….


----------



## muziksculp

Audiobro's MSB webpage says : Coming Soon. *Estimated April 19th*, so Yes, they might be releasing it today, but there is also the possibility it won't be out today.


----------



## Geoff Grace

Well, if they are staying late to release it today, at least they won't have to deal with Friday rush hour traffic!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## chocobitz825

estimated...bet its not coming today


----------



## vrocko

Announced for Tuesday release.
https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/


----------



## chocobitz825

not my favorite sounding brass library, but their engine is fantastic.


----------



## muziksculp

MSB has quite a large memory footprint 

*Library Size:*


About 160GB with loss-less compressed audio files (approximately 260GB uncompressed). 300GB required during installation.


----------



## NoamL

$600?


----------



## axb312

chocobitz825 said:


> not my favorite sounding brass library, but their engine is fantastic.


Your favorite is? 

Great pricing for the amount of content btw...


----------



## jneebz

NoamL said:


> $600?


OMG yeah, wow....


----------



## NoamL

I only had a few minutes to listen before I have to get back to work but the trumpets sound stellar to me. Everything has a pretty old school scoring stage sound ironically. Very much not the AIR sound.

If the dynamics are really there, and the divisi really works, it's gonna be hard to say no to this. But oh my gosh the VEPro RAM hit this is gonna cause...


----------



## erica-grace

Not at all impressed with the way the demos sound. I mean, they sound good, but better than what is already out there? Definitely not.


----------



## jneebz

This library sounds freaking amazing. Buttery legatos, incredibly smooth dynamic transitions, beautiful warm tone...especially in the low brass. Saving my coins...


----------



## erica-grace

jneebz said:


> Buttery legatos, incredibly smooth dynamic transitions,



You hear all of that? I sure don't.

Do the rest of you?


----------



## chocobitz825

axb312 said:


> Your favorite is?
> 
> Great pricing for the amount of content btw...




no doubt its a great new addition. Its a little too clean and pretty at points where I'd like a brass library to have more growl and edge. Century brass, CSB, Spitfire, Berlin all have a bit more versatile sound that I prefer, but again, this engine beats them and as you said the amount of content at the price is very competitive.


----------



## jneebz

And that TUBA legato....


----------



## jneebz

erica-grace said:


> You hear all of that? I sure don't.


Nah, I'm lyin'. Sounds like crap. Don't buy it.


----------



## muziksculp

I'm looking forward to watch more videos showing MSB in more detail.

Maybe they will be posting additional videos, and demos during the next few days before the official release on Tuesday April 23rd.

So far I like the new features, and the transparent behind the scenes divisi system, no more confusing, and complex setup for divisi is needed. 
(Also looking forward to see this type of divisi implemented in LASS 3) .

The new Variable Attack Control (VAC) surely makes the Sustains sound so much more alive, and real. Huge difference compared to a normal sustain patch.

I think the demos sound very nice. But I would like to hear more demos to better evaluate the library.


----------



## kevthurman

From what they have it seems pretty good at loud and fast. I want to see some more intimate chorale-style writing, which is where I had assumed a library with individual parts sampled would _really_ shine. The trumpets have a really nice shimmer on the top of chords, the tubas are very warm and full, the horns seem to be powerful but not too buzzy. I felt the trombones were weak but only because they didn't seem to get much attention either in the mix or during the walkthrough. For $599 though it seems worth it. Seems to be similar to OT berlin brass in a lot of ways but more flexible.


----------



## markleake

It sounds fantastic to me.

I really want to hear the different microphones. And more variety in the demos.

It has a clean sound that tends towards sounding a bit thin in the demos. Not as warm and full sounding like you get with, for example, Spitfire brass. But the demos were mostly the higher dynamics... in the intro video this didn't seem to be an issue. Lets wait and see what it sounds like in demos where the players aren't belting it out so hard. And I'm still not 100% sure about layering the brass rather than recording as a2/a3 patches, I need to hear more examples.

The legatos and the different length short notes sound great though. Their approach to the articulations I think are exactly what people will want and will find most useful. The library engine is impressive.

And good on AudioBro for ignoring all of that over-the-top price speculation like we saw previously in this thread. $600 places it firmly in the realms of being competitive against their competitors, taking into account instrument coverage.


----------



## kevthurman

markleake said:


> It sounds fantastic to me.
> 
> I really want to hear the different microphones. And more variety in the demos.
> 
> It has a clean sound that tends towards sounding a bit thin in the demos. Not as warm and full sounding like you get with, for example, Spitfire brass. But the demos were mostly the higher dynamics... in the intro video that's didn't seem to be an issue. Lets wait and see what it sounds like in demos where the players aren't belting it out so hard. And I'm still not 100% sure about layering the brass rather than recording as a2/a3 patches, I need to hear more examples.
> 
> The legatos and the different length short notes sound great though. Their approach to the articulations I think are exactly what people will want and will find most useful. The library engine is impressive.
> 
> And good on AudioBro for ignoring all of that over-the-top price speculation like we saw previously in this thread. $600 places it firmly in the realms of being competitive against their competitors, taking into account instrument coverage.


I agree. I want to hear more of the quiet to mid level playing and especially from the trombones. Trombones are the main reason I need a new library to be honest.


----------



## Raphioli

kevthurman said:


> Seems to be similar to OT berlin brass in a lot of ways but more flexible.



I really wish Berlin Brass had the upper dynamics which MSB has. It could have definitely competed with this library. (except for the superior engine MSB has)

But damn, $600. Thats an extremely competitive pricing considering the amount of instruments/recordings this library has. (I'm also wondering what the regular MSRP is. around 800 to 900 is my guess, considering the intro price)
Not sure if my PC could handle the RAM usage though lol
They do have a Full Mix download option which is interesting.


----------



## kevthurman

Raphioli said:


> I really wish Berlin Brass had the upper dynamics which MSB has. It could have definitely competed with this library. (except for the superior engine MSB has)
> 
> But damn, $600. Thats an extremely competitive pricing considering the amount of instruments/recordings this library has. (I'm also wondering what the regular MSRP is. around 800 to 900 is my guess, considering the intro price)
> Not sure if my PC could handle the RAM usage though lol
> They do have a Full Mix download option which is interesting.


I hope it's at least partially purgable. Maybe I can stream from my SSD? never tried streaming samples before because I felt I had the ram not to have to.


----------



## whiskers

interface/GUI looks clean af. Daddy like


----------



## CT

There's a lot to get your head around here. I will say, they were right: $600 is pleasantly surprising, albeit still way past what I can throw at a new brass library right now. If LASS 3 delivers though, that could be a compelling combination.

I'm not sold on the sound quite yet. The demos are more bombastic than my usual taste.


----------



## jneebz

whiskers said:


> interface/GUI looks clean af. Daddy like


Can’t wait to crank the “Sizzle” knob.


----------



## CT

Damn it, I watched the walkthrough and now I am, in fact, sold on the sound. Thus begins years of lust until I can manage to get it.


----------



## Drundfunk

I think I need more demos. So far I think it sounds great but I'm also not really sold at the moment. But maybe I'm too drunk right now . So what do you guys think? CSB? This? Both?


----------



## borisb2

Is it just me or did the staccato strings in these 2 demos sounded a bit more „classical“ than LASS - I liked that .. could that be already a hint to LASS3?


----------



## chocobitz825

Drundfunk said:


> I think I need more demos. So far I think it sounds great but I'm also not really sold at the moment. But maybe I'm too drunk right now . So what do you guys think? CSB? This? Both?


Obviously both of course lol


----------



## borisb2

Drundfunk said:


> So what do you guys think? CSB? This? Both?



You need CSB, MSB, SSB, SStB, AB, BB, CB and then of course JXLB .. geez, thats soo confusing


----------



## chocobitz825

borisb2 said:


> You need CSB, MSB, SSB, SStB, AB, BB, CB and then of course JXLB .. geez, thats soo confusing



Anything less would be uncivilized!


----------



## jbuhler

miket said:


> Damn it, I watched the walkthrough and now I am, in fact, sold on the sound. Thus begins years of lust until I can manage to get it.


180 days of beans and rice. I await the other demos, especially ones featuring the muted patches. But the price here is really amazing—do we know what the regular price will be?—and I wonder how OT will be able to maintain their pricing structure for Berlin Brass if the regular price for this is in the neighborhood of $799.


----------



## kevthurman

jbuhler said:


> 180 days of beans and rice. I await the other demos, especially ones featuring the muted patches. But the price here is really amazing—do we know what the regular price will be?—and I wonder how OT will be able to maintain their pricing structure for Berlin Brass if the regular price for this is in the neighborhood of $799.


Well, they seem to be going for a more modular route via their new store and sampler. Either way, competition is good here.


----------



## jbuhler

kevthurman said:


> Well, they seem to be going for a more modular route via their new store and sampler. Either way, competition is good here.


We really don't know what their store is going to look like, how modular it will in fact be, and in any case I can't imagine that it was predicated on charging less overall than the current library costs.


----------



## AllanH

So far I love the sound and player. I'll listen in more detail tomorrow.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

btw @Guy Rowland the price was set at one my scenarios.

However, I enjoyed the walkthrough quite a lot and the built in functions are great. Tone is nice definitely for a classic scoring stage kind of approach. Good 3d projection too imo.
Curious though that they stated on their webstie that all instruments range from ppp-fff though in the walkthrough e.g. at horns are going from piano to fortissimo, also other examples with the trumpets are sounding to me (modwheel up at 100 percent) more like a musical forte, but definitely not like a triple forte.


----------



## Geoff Grace

jbuhler said:


> 180 days of beans and rice. I await the other demos, especially ones featuring the muted patches. But the price here is really amazing—do we know what the regular price will be?—and I wonder how OT will be able to maintain their pricing structure for Berlin Brass if the regular price for this is in the neighborhood of $799.


I had guessed $999 regular and $799 intro (and that was low by Audiobro's established standards); but after learning the intro is $599, I'll be surprised if the regular price is higher than $799. Audiobro is shaking up the marketplace with this one—both in terms of features and price!

Of course, a lot of hobbyists and low-budget composers will balk at even $599; but it's a no brainer for those earning a reasonable living at composing.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## José Herring

The tone is great. Really musical as well. Very impressive. 

The only thing I'm not really liking so far is the high range of the trumpets. Suffers from the "too perfect" that it's not convincing. Need a little crackle, a little struggle, a little pitch warble in that upper range of the instrument to make it life like.


----------



## Guy Rowland

I hear huge strengths, but also some areas that concern me a little, really need to wait to hear more on vibrato which is sort of skated around, the whole ensemble and mixer pages, and a bit more forensic on dynamics. There are times when the range feels constricted but has smooth travel like in the solo trumpet section, while the sustained horns clearly have a good range but we don't hear the travel between them. Such an important area for MSB, as the phasing issues with solo instruments have always been a real problem for sample libraries, and the vibrato is also crucial... I have a feeling that it must be an effect not real recorded vibrato, which is a potential issue.

So lots to like, outstanding feature set, sounds amazing in some places and less amazing in others. Overall keen to hear more.

Delighted to eat humble pie on the price, this is definitely new territory for Audiobro and I think its pretty likely to have a ripple effect on competitors new offerings (and old, for that matter).


----------



## jbuhler

Geoff Grace said:


> I had guessed $999 regular and $799 intro (and that was low by Audiobro's established standards); but after learning the intro is $599, I'll be surprised if the regular price is higher than $799. Audiobro is shaking up the marketplace with this one—both in terms of features and price!
> 
> Of course, a lot of hobbyists and low-budget composers will balk at even $599; but it's a no brainer for those earning a reasonable living at composing.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


I had guessed even higher ($1199), and I had sort of thought I could file this away for a potential future purchase and not have to consider it carefully right now. But this pricing has my attention, and I'm going to have to mess with the walkthroughs to see how well it might blend with libraries I have.


----------



## jamwerks

Man, I was totally wrong about the price!


----------



## MrCambiata

Some great features, besides auto-divisi I also find the keys for repeated notes and tempo-sync trills/ crescendo very useful.


----------



## lucor

I hope they'll continue to release videos through out the coming days. I'm especially curious about the newly announced Intuition Series Instruments. I'm a sucker for playable instruments like Performance Samples and Musical Sampling, and that sounds really interesting.


----------



## Clawrence

But will JXL and OT do a better job.....more money or not? It seems like OT is actively taking concepts and ideas from working composers to create a library that at the very least will be a contender. I love a lot of things about MSB....a lot. But with a hoard of brass libraries I can only justify one or the other. MSB appears to fill some playability gaps. The thing is when I started literally EVERYONE said get Berlin Brass...because it was the best. So...what to do


----------



## Hans-Peter

I was really looking forward to this one (got up early in the morning to check it out). However, is it just me or do others also hear that strong metallic ringing or hiss in all the demo tracks and video? Especially in the trombones and horns it's extremely evident. That's what concerns me!

So far I'm everything other than impressed by MSB's sound. But again, the feature set and agility of the articulations are very impressive and keep me hoping that those sound issues are just specific to those demos or can be fixed by minimal EQing. Specifically, to me it sounds like those issues stem from a bright and mechanics hall like set of IRs - to be compared with a "ressource-friendly" (read low-cost) reverb trying to mimic Carnegie Hall (in other words: Doppler Lab's implementation as found in the Here One smart in-ears). So that ringing might be easy to fix by swapping those IRs with another set. Another thing to note about the demos (, which were otherwise impressively put together) is that no brass section plays like this - I mean, at times all sections, all players play a crazy fff - perhaps due to the humanizing implementation in MSB - but normally this is something you are supposed to hold off from when aiming for a realistic mockup.

The sound might be a matter of personal taste - though, normally I tend to prefer a brighter quality in brass, which is why it surprises me nobody has noted the nasal quality of the demos yet. But, as some have pointed out, it is too early to judge the library by the demos provided so far. One can just hope that AudioBro will upload a few more walkthrough videos to give a better idea about the sound. Usually, their products belong to the very, very, very best in the business (IMO, of course).


----------



## Mihkel Zilmer

Really need to hear separate microphone positions! Not 100% convinced by the sound yet. How much (if any) reverb are we hearing in the demo video? Not a huge fan of the slightly metallic, thin tail..

Other than that - lots to like here though! Impressive engine, and that solo tuba is one of the most gorgeous sampled instrument I ever heard!


----------



## jamwerks

I've extremely impressed! Seems that they've pretty much that about everything, and a great mix of realism & playability! Horns are soooo hard to get right, but here they seem to have got it.

As for the price, they are being very aggressive & daring. That might even be lower than a normal "best-revenu" price point. That could even put other devs in a difficult position (survival-wise)!


----------



## jononotbono

So stoked for this. Sounds amazing to my ears and the intro price is fantastic. I'll definitely be buying this!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

*gulp*

Here I was hoping I'd wake up to no-good-news. Guess I'll probably be 600$ poorer. Drooling over the auto divisi - and cimbassi. Can't *hurt* having both berlin brass and MSB.(well it will probably hurt the checkbook)


----------



## Brian Nowak

I think there were really strong sounding parts. The features are certainly great. But I was not blown away by the sound. It was "fine" but not mind-shattering. 

Methinks I will have to wait and see what jxl brass amounts to. But so far mum is the word on that little chunk of hope.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Brian Nowak said:


> I think there were really strong sounding parts. The features are certainly great. But I was not blown away by the sound. It was "fine" but not mind-shattering.
> 
> Methinks I will have to wait and see what jxl brass amounts to. But so far mum is the word on that little chunk of hope.



Im actually surprised at the response of mediocrity for the sound. I think the horn sounds iffy - but all in all, I can't fault it for the sound. Berlin brass is darker and fatter - but this contends. Brighter and thinner at top dynamics - with a tigher bottom end. 

Is it rude to ask what kind of music you like? JXL's tone didn't grab me - because it's just a wall of sound. 12 trombones/trumpets sounds like hot garbage at ff to my ears. On one hand - I like adding to my "stuff sampled in teldex" but its so far beyond the scope of traditional scoring to my ears - that it just sounds like it's unapologetically sampled brass. I joke about 12 horns, but horns are weak enough that 12 of them can still sound thick.

heck even 6 bones/trumpets at ff sound as abrasive as a literal motorcycle to me. 

Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but considering there are really only 2 fully sampled divisi libraries for brass, this is actually killer. And from me arming my template and noodling over the walkthrough, they don't sound THAT far off from each other. Major difference is that this seems to capture that ensemble interaction better than BB somehow - and it handles rhythmic patterns like a king. 

It's like Berlin brass had a stepchild with some chris hein features but with way better tone. Either way, for anyone who intends to sound like a brass ensemble rather than a brass patch on a keyboard - This *seems* like it's not a weak entry. 

maybe ill dig up some real recordings to AB and ill sober up about the sound.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I mean - comparing to a real recording, with excellent players - and a top notch recording(modern) this sounds pretty good.

although It would have probably been better if the demo from audiobro kept the dynamics a little lower to keep the fatness in the bones


----------



## jamwerks

Some live recordings do treat individual close mic's with tape saturation and other, aiming to "faten" the sound. These demos probably don't even have added reverb (other than their stage ir's) much less other processing. But nothing is stopping us from doing it.


----------



## Brian Nowak

First of all, at no point did I say it sounds bad. I said it sounds "fine but not mind-shattering". 

Second, as per words out of Holkenborg's mouth I seem to recall hearing regarding the upcoming library, it's supposed to be a very all-encompassing brass library. From traditional classical writing to modern film scoring. Not just blasts of brass. If it ends up just being a giant wall of sound, I'm not going to be all that interested because I've already got Ark 1-3. Is there some demo out there of jxl brass I'm unaware of? I like the sound of the brass I do have from Teldex. I'm thinking jxl brass will be like an updated Berlin brass that is able to push things a bit further. 

I have CSB, which I got for $250. So I'm just not so floored by the quality of sound here I feel the need to throw $600 at it. 

The auto-divisi is cool. The crescendos are cool. The attack types at all dynamics is also cool. I'm just not so taken by the sound of the library, which seems a little flattened and reminds me a bit of VSL. 

Also, most of the audio was taken from demos, and we don't know for sure what type of jiggery-pokery was done to make them sound the way they do. So until I see a walkthrough with patches on display I'll stand by what I said. 

It sounded fine, but not "compulsory buy" great even at that price point.


----------



## jamwerks

The fact that it's recorded centered, then artificially panned may be bothering some. Imo that can get you about 85% there, but not as good as in-situ.

When these patches play solo, then added players, I wonder if all players are panned accordingly?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> The fact that it's recorded centered, then artificially panned may be bothering some. Imo that can get you about 85% there, but not as good as in-situ.
> 
> When these patches play solo, then added players, I wonder if all players are panned accordingly?



its not too bad as long as you don't EQ the left and right the same. I've got all the reverbs anyone could reasonably want(sans spat)

as far as the JXL library - sounds like the brass in the background of the announcement(I think it was the announcement)

and it's set up like this solo x, 3a x, 6a x, 12a x.

a good argument could be made for 6a ensembles(like SSB) but 12a horns is pushing it -- and 12a bones just sound like noise. every 6a trumpet patch I've heard is unbearable to me.



this doesn't sound like the other OT libraries, but it does sound like 6a/12a patches.

And again, not saying you can't have that opinion - but given where the sample world is right now, there is only 1 real competitor library given what this is - and the tone slants towards berlin personally, but even I understand it's just a matter of taste.

CSB does not have divisi, and is in the league of Cinebrass - and faces a similar comparison(Cinebrass has better tone quality, CSB has better programming) Ironically I passed up CSB because it's not worth 250$ of an upgrade over cinebrass to me.

But thanks for atleast giving the perspective you're coming from, butlike I said, it's kind of apples to oranges. 

this is the first true competitor to true divisi brass - and the tone is definitely within a matter of taste. If you like the thinner "Williams" sound - its probably better. I guess the reality is that divisi writing is not important to everyone, so it makes little sense to buy another library for the feature of having 30+ instruments sampled if you just use ensemble patches


----------



## Architekton

Sounds good, too bad I cant buy it as I cant open the website for God knows what reasons. As I heard last time, some countries are blocked. Funny, they loose customers this way.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Architekton said:


> Sounds good, too bad I cant buy it as I cant open the website for God knows what reasons. As I heard last time, some countries are blocked. Funny, they loose customers this way.


try out tor browser.
https://www.torproject.org/download/


----------



## chocobitz825

maybe I'm just looking for a second opinion, but where does everyone rank this library compared to the competition? i don't mean to discredit the hard work of the folks at audiobro, because the effort shows. the engine makes it as appealing as the genesis choir library on the surface. However, there's just something I can't pinpoint from the audio demos right now that leaves me wanting. Something thin about the sound of the brass..something a little too pretty that makes it sound like a light 90s scoring brass sound. It just feels like the lows are lacking a certain bass and rumble. everything sounds so pretty but it lacks power that I really rely on brass to bring. I ended up buying two libraries from 8dio with its current 420 sale for the same price as MSB and I really dont know if im in a rush to get MSB. For those who are really sold, what got you there?


----------



## erica-grace

I agree, but I think we have to wait for walkthroughs and naked demos to really be able to tell.

Does AudioBro release naked demos? They should.


----------



## Brian Nowak

ProfoundSilence said:


> its not too bad as long as you don't EQ the left and right the same. I've got all the reverbs anyone could reasonably want(sans spat)
> 
> as far as the JXL library - sounds like the brass in the background of the announcement(I think it was the announcement)
> 
> and it's set up like this solo x, 3a x, 6a x, 12a x.
> 
> a good argument could be made for 6a ensembles(like SSB) but 12a horns is pushing it -- and 12a bones just sound like noise. every 6a trumpet patch I've heard is unbearable to me.
> 
> 
> 
> this doesn't sound like the other OT libraries, but it does sound like 6a/12a patches.
> 
> And again, not saying you can't have that opinion - but given where the sample world is right now, there is only 1 real competitor library given what this is - and the tone slants towards berlin personally, but even I understand it's just a matter of taste.
> 
> CSB does not have divisi, and is in the league of Cinebrass - and faces a similar comparison(Cinebrass has better tone quality, CSB has better programming) Ironically I passed up CSB because it's not worth 250$ of an upgrade over cinebrass to me.
> 
> But thanks for atleast giving the perspective you're coming from, butlike I said, it's kind of apples to oranges.
> 
> this is the first true competitor to true divisi brass - and the tone is definitely within a matter of taste. If you like the thinner "Williams" sound - its probably better. I guess the reality is that divisi writing is not important to everyone, so it makes little sense to buy another library for the feature of having 30+ instruments sampled if you just use ensemble patches




Well, until JXL is released we're just speculating. If it's not multiple solo instruments AND ensembles AND amazing sounding, I probably won't bite. I'll just resign my fate to eventually getting Berlin Brass and dealing with its finicky programming. The idea of auto divisi is cool and all but I would much prefer to write for each instrument individually like with BWW Revive.

And yes it's true. For the music I am currently contracted to write I am not in need of full divisi patches. Ensemble and soloists are more than enough for what I'm doing.

But even if I did need individual brass instruments, I am not convinced by the sounds in the demos I have heard. And I know for a fact that this was not some deficiency with the composers chosen. Much like SF studio brass, the sound is "good" but not quite there.

If you absolutely need divisi and you don't mind sounding a bit like old VSL brass, I'm sure this library is the absolute right fit for you.


----------



## HelixK

I have to say that I'm nowhere near excited I thought I would be after all the wait. But that's on me for not controlling my expectations.

I watched the walkthough a couple of times and took a good critical listen to all instruments shown (great tuba, by the way). Overall, MSB has that thin quality that bothers me in plenty of other brass libraries. Too polished and polite. I agree it has some of that Williams tone to it but nowhere near the bite of Johnny's players. Cinesamples captured both those qualities successfully, in my opinion. I also think that CSB sounds more usable out of the box at a fraction of the price. MSB misses that wow factor I always get when I hear a real brass ensemble playing. CSB got that covered!

I hope I don't sound too harsh but I was honestly expecting more. We now have the luxury of choosing from many great libraries (even modular OT libraries) so a bit skepticism might help to save some coins. Unless I hear something that blows my mind, I will gladly wait for a sale. And I hope we can purge samples because that memory footprint is just ludicrous.


----------



## RogiervG

Purely based on the *two demos*:
Well, it sounds not bad. It's also not top notch either. It's mediocre, which in my book translates to a 6 to 7 on the scale of 10 (ten being flawless, beautiful etc) which is perfectly fine, if you need a, to say it tactless, "filler" lib.

Somehow, i find the sound rather *sharp*, less roundy (e.g. the horns, can sound majestic and loud while remaining round sounding at the same time.
but the msb horns i heard, where only loud and *sharp/thin*-ish sounding.)

*Maybe* when i hear more demo's (naked ones too please!).. i might change my mind.
I am now more more on the fence with Cinematic Studio Brass, CineBrass and Berlin Brass.
Not sure which one to take though.... all three sound better than msb at this point. (not only official demos, but also user demos, which ofcourse aren't available atm for msb, i take than into account in my verdict)

Sorry audiobro... be i need to be fair on my judgement (although, as said: i might change stance, when there are more demos):

current rating:* 6 to 7 out of 10*. (which is again not bad at all, yet there are better competitors atm sound wise, again based on two demo songs and a trailer video)


----------



## kevthurman

HelixK said:


> I have to say that I'm nowhere near excited I thought I would be after all the wait. But that's on me for not controlling my expectations.
> 
> I watched the walkthough a couple of times and took a good critical listen to all instruments shown (great tuba, by the way). Overall, MSB has that thin quality that bothers me in plenty of other brass libraries. Too polished and polite. I agree it has some of that Williams tone to it but nowhere near the bite of Johnny's players. Cinesamples captured both those qualities successfully, in my opinion. I also think that CSB sounds more usable out of the box at a fraction of the price. MSB misses that wow factor I always get when I hear a real brass ensemble playing. CSB got that covered!
> 
> I hope I don't sound too harsh but I was honestly expecting more. We now have the luxury of choosing from many great libraries (even modular OT libraries) so a bit skepticism might help to save some coins. Unless I hear something that blows my mind, I will gladly wait for a sale. And I hope we can purge samples because that memory footprint is just ludicrous.


I really think that was more of a mixing and programming choice by the makers of those demos. It was all really brassy and loud. It also had a thin metallic sound which again could be completely due to whatever reverb they used. They didn't even show what kind of mic mix they used or show what the mics sounded like. When you look in the video, the midi curves on all the tracks were practically black rectangles under the notes. We really didn't see much range from the demos but the walkthrough made it seem like there was a lot more depth to it than what they showed. The trombones in the demos were practically white noise and the trumpets were way louder than anything else. At first I had similar thoughts to you but I have decided I'd rather be patient because to me it seems like its pros outweigh the cons as far as what I need in a library right now. I hope they release some more demos, and I bet I can get the sort of results I want out of it with all the available tools.


----------



## jamwerks

Those mixes sounds to me like being pretty Decca-tree heavy. Mixes that include a bit more close-mics might be more what some are hoping to hear.


----------



## whiskers

As Simones contemplating another brass library, this is certainly tempting. At Forzo currently half this intro price, curious how the two compare. Currently have Arks 1&2 and NI Symphony Series brass


----------



## NoamL

I'm probably gonna stick with CSB for a few months just because it's not wise to mess with VEP in the middle of a project. By the time I’m ready to redo my template again, both MSB and JXLB could be out. But if MSB’s intro price of 600 is in context of a final price like 1200 or 1500, it’ll be worth thinking about very seriously…

I do hear the bright/thin quality that everyone is talking about. "90s brass" is a spot on description.

A few things in the demo video made me slightly skeptical. Like when they were demonstrating the auto-divisi, all of a sudden they started playing very fast legato lines. I wonder if that's because the engine has trouble differentiating a human playing slow overlapping notes from 2-note divisi chords... and when he played divisi he played the easiest case, one held note against a moving melody. If the divisi really does work in complex & real life situations it's going to be a game changer.

The GUI is absolutely fantastic and the level of control over things like envelopes, legato transition volumes, etc.... really impressive.


----------



## Brian Nowak

kevthurman said:


> I really think that was more of a mixing and programming choice by the makers of those demos. It was all really brassy and loud. It also had a thin metallic sound which again could be completely due to whatever reverb they used. They didn't even show what kind of mic mix they used or show what the mics sounded like. When you look in the video, the midi curves on all the tracks were practically black rectangles under the notes. We really didn't see much range from the demos but the walkthrough made it seem like there was a lot more depth to it than what they showed. The trombones in the demos were practically white noise and the trumpets were way louder than anything else. At first I had similar thoughts to you but I have decided I'd rather be patient because to me it seems like its pros outweigh the cons as far as what I need in a library right now. I hope they release some more demos, and I bet I can get the sort of results I want out of it with all the available tools.



Since Daniel Beijbom tends to do impeccable work, I am less likely to to point the finger at him with issues regarding the demo.


----------



## AllanH

I really like the tone, but the demos do sound a bit thin in the low-end. I wonder if this is a production issue, as even the percussion in the demos lack the very low end. 

Having a mix of trumpets in Bb and C is unusual and gives the ensemble a slightly crisper sound. Audiobro repeatedly makes a point out of noting that the players were recorded individually. I've always thought of large brass ensembles as "resonating with the room", so it will be interesting to hear more demos. I'm definitely interested.

The GUI/player seems like a major leap forward.


----------



## kevthurman

Brian Nowak said:


> Since Daniel Beijbom tends to do impeccable work, I am less likely to to point the finger at him with issues regarding the demo.


It's not a matter of it being good or bad, just a specific style that some people here aren't looking for.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

I would be very surprised if Daniel Beijbom or Ed Watkins completely transformed the tone of Modern Scoring Brass for their demos. The library probably sounds 95% like this


----------



## Denkii

With HWB, Forzo and CSB (if it ever finishes downloading - 3 days and still going strong) on my drive, this does not tempt me.
Although I'd appreciate that autodivisi option but...meh.


----------



## Lassi Tani

I'd like them to show more the options how to change the sound, e.g. sizzle knob wasn't featured in the video. It wasn't dialed all the way to growl in the demos in the video.

From their page: “Sizzle” control dials in bell-shaking, window-rattling power. Or pull out the edge and get sonorous, dark, and mellow.

So I think there are options for changing the default sound, which they didn't show much, like the sizzle, different mics.


----------



## kevthurman

whitewasteland said:


> I would be very surprised if Daniel Beijbom or Ed Watkins completely transformed the tone of Modern Scoring Brass for their demos. The library probably sounds 95% like this


Well this isn't even 95% of the library though, all the midi tracks in the demo at the end were at 127 on CC1 for the whole duration of the demo. This is a great example of its max FFFF volume but I don't think it's fair to say the library is too thin and tinny when it could be completely different at the other end of the dynamics and with different mic combos.


----------



## Mucusman

I’m sure there are many more videos to come, like what they did for Genesis Children’s Choir. In the forum they promised to at least post one video on Friday to tide everyone over. I think that’s what they did, instead of just punting again to Tuesday and have a digital riot on their hands. 

I’m cautiously optimistic. Delighted that it’ll be available $100 cheaper than I projected. Love the ability to adjust starting samples. Like how most of the solo instruments that were presented sound but i’m still reserving judgment on the ensemble (pre-mixed?) sounds. A lot of my hope springs from how playable Genesis choir is using the same (more or less) engine.


----------



## RogiervG

well the first impression is what matters most from a business perspective.
And doing two demos of the same exact type: FF FFF style.. is not a good balanced impression people get.
They should have done two completely different styles (loud (ff to fff) and soft (p to mf) e.g.) so we can hear the tone differences more clearly.

But, i'm sure there are more demo songs to come.. and tutorial vids.
However, as an initial demo it's quite lacking in marketing terms, resulting in taking away (completely) the hype for quite a few people/potential customers here.
This brings audiobro in an unwanted marketing situation from the get go:
it needs to really convince those unhyped people that the product does provide the expectations (and these people are now very much paying attention to faulties/problem areas and are less tolerant, mind you), before they will jump back on the hype wagon (resulting in purchases in the end for many).


----------



## Geoff Grace

As far as I'm concerned, marketing is a virtually moot point. Have patience, do your research, trust your ears, and you will be rewarded.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## kevthurman

Geoff Grace said:


> As far as I'm concerned, marketing is a virtually moot point. Have patience, do your research, trust your ears, and you will be rewarded.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


Yes, i find that I often get wildly different results out of libraries, for good and for bad. Makes it hard to fully gauge how "good" it is... I think the depth of features in the player and the individual instruments will make it worth having for my style of writing anyways.


----------



## RogiervG

Geoff Grace said:


> As far as I'm concerned, marketing is a virtually moot point. Have patience, do your research, trust your ears, and you will be rewarded.
> f



I disagree.. you start to investigate further if the FIRST impression, does well.. ehm.. impress you.  That's how the brain works. You need to get triggered emotionally. And the trigger is how the marketing (in this case demos) of a product actually aligns with the expectations people get from announcement texts/pictures/news articles of an upcoming product.
And reading here and judging from myself, so far Audiobro did not deliver well on the expectations (a.k.a. first impression) emotionally, based on the demos provided so far...

E.g. i for one (i'm sure there are many more) need to get really convinced the product can deliver the expectations properly, with the price tag and the competition in mind.

If they can convince me (sooner of later) and others (users) too (besides my own researches), i might jump in and purchase the lib. (but then again, i might have to wait till another discount, depending if i am too late for the introduction price and/or if the regular price is too high for my taste in relation to competition offerings )


----------



## NoamL

For what it's worth I thought Daniel's demo was impressive writing & very authentic to the style he's trying to do.

Fortissimo is not just loud but that belting, straining sound that lets you know the musicians are pushing their instrument to its limits. Sampling ff on any instrument is hard and there are few libraries that really get there. For strings for instance, I often use Adventure Strings for ff/fff because they captured that level of aggression. I definitely got that feeling from the trumpets in this demo. CSB also does the high dynamics really well, though.


----------



## Saxer

I think it's best of both worlds: auto divisi ensemble patches and all individual instruments. I like both approaches for different workflows and projects. 

What I don't like are those "unison-ensemble plus one solo instrument"-libraries. I never know how to really work with them... chords by using multiple copies of the same solo instruments and switching to the ensemble for unison? Meh... 
So this library is really interesting!


----------



## CT

Saxer said:


> What I don't like are those "unison-ensemble plus one solo instrument"-libraries. I never know how to really work with them... chords by using multiple copies of the same solo instruments and switching to the ensemble for unison?



That used to bug me too, but I've accepted it. Obviously MSB could be the alternative I've been waiting for, though.


----------



## gjelul

Was very excited about this one and held on a 40% off Berlin Brass purchase in anticipation (already have Spitfire, Cinebrass and a few other ones.) From the 2 demos I am not convinced: too loud all the time, too many things going on at the same time, too thin and no 'bite.' The walthrough is actually closer to what this library probably is. Based on the 2 demos I would not buy it, based on the walkthrough, however, I am on the fence. Do like very much the GUI and what they've done with the ART (hoping for a LASS3 update with this GUI and feature,) and the pricing is very competitive and hard to resist. Bottom line, I am looking forward to more demos (naked ones!) and more feature specific walkthroughs.


----------



## handz

It sounds a bit thin and dry, but that may be that the demos are dry, it does not sound bad but, well... I still think that Cinebrass has the most beautiful tone there is, wish they made a V2 version of this library, recorder the same way but with more hip programming and more arts


----------



## erica-grace

Well, the workflow and GUI seem really nice. Like, if you look at 3:49 - 5:00... VERY impressive.

I am still not sold on the sound, tho. The horns sound nice, but don't sound like an ensemble, and the trumpets are panned weird.

The legatos sound good, however.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Saxer said:


> I think it's best of both worlds: auto divisi ensemble patches and all individual instruments. I like both approaches for different workflows and projects.
> 
> What I don't like are those "unison-ensemble plus one solo instrument"-libraries. I never know how to really work with them... chords by using multiple copies of the same solo instruments and switching to the ensemble for unison? Meh...
> So this library is really interesting!



My ideal would be to have multiple soloists and ensemble patches. In the cases of things like CSB I just keep my writing simplified. I can generally get away with 2 parts on ensemble patches before it starts to get more noticeable. Or use the ol' Kontakt detune/DAW retune trick on solo instruments. Or I just accept it's gonna get bigger sounding and I curtail my decisions when things start to get synthy.

The idea of auto-divisi is great. I will wait to see more about this library. But based off what I'm hearing it just isn't tricking my trigger.


----------



## artinro

I agree with a lot of the sentiment above. As of now, there's just something about the overall sound I'm not loving. Not sure if that's the particular room, perhaps some stage IRs, reverb, or maybe if the instruments weren't recorded in-situ (is that actually confirmed?). Things also might change with some different mic mixes. The GUI and engine are both brilliant, and the legato sounds fluid and quite responsive. I'm just not convinced by the sound yet, though that could easily change with some more material.


----------



## chocobitz825

Let’s be honest though, it’s not like this library is being judged on its own. It was announced when CSB and Spitefire brass were announced and dropped. I think since then we’ve had forzo, talos, infinite brass, 90s retro trumpets and a few other come out to fill that area. If it had come out first I might have felt different, but it’s one of the last to come out and other than it’s impressive engine that I enjoyed in genesis, I don’t know how competitive it is compared to the rest. Can’t say it enough, Audiobro folks did some great work, but they just might be a bit late to the party on this one.


----------



## CT

I can totally understand concerns about the tone, but the love it/hate it attitude that LASS seems to bring out in people makes me optimistic. LASS can sound dreadful and harsh in the wrong hands (or, if that's just what you're after), and then you give it to someone like Jeremy Soule, and what he does makes me want to throw out all my other strings and just finally buy it.


----------



## erica-grace

miket said:


> LASS can sound dreadful and harsh in the wrong hands (or, if that's just what you're after), and then you give it to someone like Jeremy Soule, and what he does makes me want to throw out all my other strings and just finally buy it.



Do you have a link to any of Jeremy's cues, where you know the strings are LASS, and not layered with real strings? Would love to hear some!


----------



## CT

Off the top of my head, I can't point to any specific instances.


----------



## Gingerbread

Can the concern about the tone and/or lack of bass frequencies be solved with a bit of EQ or mic mixing?


----------



## kevthurman

Gingerbread said:


> Can the concern about the tone and/or lack of bass frequencies be solved with a bit of EQ or mic mixing?


I think and hope so. I hope we get to see what the different mics sound like and a more in-depth show of the instruments' dynamics.


----------



## chocobitz825

Gingerbread said:


> Can the concern about the tone and/or lack of bass frequencies be solved with a bit of EQ or mic mixing?



i hope so..but compare to say the demo on www.cinematicstudioseries.com/brass.html in "edge of reality" i dont feel that MSB has hit the same level of power, attack and sense of dynamics. Comparing to "the long road" there is a character and expression in the vibrato and attack that even comes through on softer parts. Maybe the demos on MSB dont adequately expressly the dynamic range, but if i was looking at the two demo tracks and video, it doesn't come off as a competitively expressive library compared to others.


----------



## Sean

Yea it sounds nice but it doesn't seem so much better than other brass libraries that it's a must have. Maybe someone who doesn't have any brass libraries could do well getting it but there might not be as much of a point for someone with a more extensive library already.


----------



## artomatic

Methinks these sound thin, almost harsh to me. Was so looking forward to this. 
Hoping other demos will convince me that it deserves the $600 intro price...
A bit disappointed, tbh.


----------



## mcalis

While I'm not sold on the sound, I am deeply impressed with the amount of content on offer. I would like to congratulate Audiobro on the monumental effort to record and edit a library of this calibre If past Audiobro products are anything to go by the QA will be stellar and the sound will be flexible enough to alleviate people's concerns. I'm still hopeful and I'm very impressed with the price tag.

Let's not all forget how many workhours go into a product like this. Of course people are free to dislike it, but at the least I can respect the time and effort that went into creating this. I nearly drove myself insane by sampling a piano once and I can't begin to comprehend how much post production this beast took. 

Edit: someone asked for session pictures for Genesis last time, I'd love to see some session pictures of MSB too if it's not too much to ask.


----------



## trumpoz

Ohhhhh

Listening through this now. That descending legato chromatic run on trumpet is something. Very clean. Different attacks on the sustains sound great. The tuba legato is very


----------



## constaneum

gjelul said:


> Was very excited about this one and held on a 40% off Berlin Brass purchase in anticipation (already have Spitfire, Cinebrass and a few other ones.) From the 2 demos I am not convinced: too loud all the time, too many things going on at the same time, too thin and no 'bite.' The walthrough is actually closer to what this library probably is. Based on the 2 demos I would not buy it, based on the walkthrough, however, I am on the fence. Do like very much the GUI and what they've done with the ART (hoping for a LASS3 update with this GUI and feature,) and the pricing is very competitive and hard to resist. Bottom line, I am looking forward to more demos (naked ones!) and more feature specific walkthroughs.



Looking at MSB and Genesis, I guess most likely LASS 3 will be using this interface as well but changing the entire scripts as well as the staging and etc sure will not be a cheap upgrade I suppose ? It's like revamping of the entire interface as well as not forgetting the new sounds.


----------



## Hanu_H

Just watched the walkthrough for the second time and it sounds just amazing. I think that is the best sounding horns and tuba I've ever heard. Trumpets sound a bit thin but did you notice how dry everything is? It looks like this is going to be a really flexible library that follows the same concept as LASS. It's gonna be one of those libraries that can do anything in the right hands, not one of those instant gratification libraries that sound good when you play a single note but when you try to play a solid line, it just falls apart. Many people don't like the sound of LASS and I am sure those people won't like the sound of MSB either. But when I listen to the different attacks on the horn sustains...well that alone is worth the money. Maybe the name is a bit off, it might give people an impression that this is something like Forzo or Metropolis with a huge, trailer type sound. To me it sounds more like a real brass, perfect for old school orchestral scoring and for classical music. I really like the Reaching The Summit demo as well. It's also a bit weird to blame AudioBro for the demos being too similar, they didn't make the demos. I am sure there will be more soon anyways...


----------



## Hanu_H

And the GUI, wow. Only one question remains...Where is my freaking woodwind library Audiobro? Woodwinds with this concept will be the biggest bomb ever in the sample library market...


----------



## Batrawi

constaneum said:


> Looking at MSB and Genesis, I guess most likely LASS 3 will be using this interface as well but changing the entire scripts as well as the staging and etc sure will not be a cheap upgrade I suppose ? It's like revamping of the entire interface as well as not forgetting the new sounds.


Unless there is new recording content, I wouldn't personally appreciate a charged upgrade to LASS3 for an existing user as myself. Companies should naturally be doing this for the sake of their own product to adapt with the modern market and such benefit should naturally transfer to existing customers who own the product. An increased entry price for future customers would be more logical/justifiable though.


----------



## jamwerks

Imo it's sounds thin like it should sound. A solo Trumpet in a large room should sound "thin" like that.

Strange that there's no Contrebass Trombone!

And I don't think it will be called LASS 3, rather Modern Scoring Strings.


----------



## CT

Hanu_H said:


> And the GUI, wow. Only one question remains...Where is my freaking woodwind library Audiobro? Woodwinds with this concept will be the biggest bomb ever in the sample library market...



Yes. If something like that is in the works, it could very easily turn me into a primarily Audiobro-reliant composer.


----------



## jneebz

jamwerks said:


> Imo it's sounds thin like it should sound. A solo Trumpet in a large room should sound "thin" like that.


Totally agree. I felt the same way with LADD. Some of the patches were not as thick as I liked individually, but in a mix...didn't have to touch it. Perfect.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Yes, I think some have been far too hasty to denigrate the sound. I can hear some real strengths, and those lighter trumpets might be just perfect for some parts. I still have concerns, but really I think we've heard very little. No look at all at the ensemble or mixer sections, no demo for vibrato in action etc. Even the real basics like smoothly playing through the dynamics across all the core instruments are missing. I feel I've heard about a third of what I want to hear before making a proper decision.

I asked Andrew at the Audiobro forums about more video material. He said more is coming, but the first one will be about template and RAM use. I guess that's important - I know it will have a ton of options for using with limited RAM setups, and that's very welcome, of course. But I really do want to hear more sonics first. I hope they can ramp up the walkthroughs... theirs are very polished which is all well and good but I feel I just want to hear someone playing through the basics and take their time.


----------



## Nicola74

Only two demos and one fast walkthrough until now, but I have to say I am really impressed! I have LASS 2.5 and Genesis and I love them and I am pretty sure that I am going to love this too


----------



## Hanu_H

miket said:


> Yes. If something like that is in the works, it could very easily turn me into a primarily Audiobro-reliant composer.


That would be the natural step after the already announced LASS update. Let's hope it happens soon!


----------



## Henu

Those demos sound disturbingly good. Were there any similar (williams/fanfare-esque) - styled pieces posted around done with CSB? I was certain there were some, but after searching for some time I couldn't find any to compare.

EDIT: Not "SCB", naturally.


----------



## brenneisen

Henu said:


> SCB?



what's that?


----------



## zolhof

The trumpet examples sound like something straight out of Apollo 13, very similar to Timothy Morrison's rich tone. Nothing thin about it, at least not to my ears. Don't mistake the overprocessed brass sound that plagues virtual instruments with what a real ensemble sounds like. I presume you can dial whatever tone you prefer, from crappy to happy, with the 5 mics mixes and adjustable stage.

And judging by the quick glimpse of the GUI, MSB looks like a programmer's dream. Think "Sample Modeling for dummies" level of control. I think this is going to turn out to be a very versatile library if you don't expect it to do all the heavy lifting for you.


----------



## Henu

brenneisen said:


> what's that?



CSB*


----------



## RogiervG

brenneisen said:


> what's that?


SpitCineBro?


----------



## RogiervG

The demos, as said before, sound thin, overly metallic/harsh.. even the horns. In the video though, the horns and trumpets sound better (less harsh, less metalic, meaning more pleasant to the ears, even on FF/FFF)
So as far as the demos: Might be the compressors/eq'ing used.. or maybe the encoding or maybe they where made with an early version that wasn't properly adjusted yet?


----------



## Gingerbread

Although extremely brief, in the walkthrough video the lower dynamics are played (again, very briefly), and they sound quite beautiful. 

AudioBro's libraries are generally known to need a little EQ to bring out a more beautiful tone (with the exception of Genesis), so I suspect a lot of the immediate reaction here is simply reacting to its rawer out-of-the-box philosophy. I'll be interested to see more videos, and what people can get by tweaking the EQ a bit.


----------



## artomatic

Had a chance to listen and watch the walkthrough again today after a good night's rest and awesome coffee...
I have to say that my previous comment on MSB yesterday was a bit premature.
The individual instrument patches actually sounded great on their own.
I still think the demos themselves sounded thin as a whole (not just MSB). 
Perhaps they deserve better mixing/mastering treatments?
Paying more attention to the limited walkthrough, this library offers more options and flexibility than my other major brass libs.
This thing is loaded with smart patches and articulations - real variable attack control, awesome auto divisi engine, synced trills and crescendos, polyphonic legato, assignable repeat keys, auto rhythm tool, just to name a few.

I'll be $599 poorer come Tuesday. Dang it.


----------



## Architekton

Will LASS3 be newly recorded instruments or it will be just an update to old v2 library?


----------



## awaey

I have some good Brass Library (a,b,c,d). seriously after more than 10 time listening the demo , walkthrough video . there is something magic in this library absolutely stunning, I Loved it , unique feature Very realistic Sounds , Excellent job , same levle of (Lass) may be more , congratulations audiobro...


----------



## jneebz

artomatic said:


> I still think the demos themselves sounded thin as a whole (not just MSB).


Agree. I wonder if the whole initial release plan may have been rushed a bit given the long wait and looming deadline...I’m extrapolating my hope from the video examples


----------



## gpwilliams

I am happy to see that MSB has an alto trombone. This is missing from many brass libraries (of course VSL has it).

Looking forward to redoing a mock-up of the 4th movement of Schumann’s Rhenish symphony using MSB. The brass section is prominent and calls for an alto trombone. A complete MSB section should work well here.


----------



## CT

Architekton said:


> Will LASS3 be newly recorded instruments or it will be just an update to old v2 library?



I don't think anyone knows at this point. I'd love to see the original samples ported over to the new player, plus some newly recorded articulations. LASS is already so strong, I don't think a totally fresh start would be necessary. It just needs some more content.


----------



## Hanu_H

miket said:


> I don't think anyone knows at this point. I'd love to see the original samples ported over to the new player, plus some newly recorded articulations. LASS is already so strong, I don't think a totally fresh start would be necessary. It just needs some more content.


I think it was stated somewhere by Andrew from Audiobro that it will have the old samples ported to the new engine with some new recordings as well.


----------



## sinkd

Hanu_H said:


> And the GUI, wow. Only one question remains...Where is my freaking woodwind library Audiobro? Woodwinds with this concept will be the biggest bomb ever in the sample library market...


Exactly! And what about Hardart? and Oscar Mayer Weiner Whistle? (yes, I had to sing the song to myself to spell 'Mayer' correctly). But, yeah. woodwinds in the LASS/MSB format would be killer.


----------



## markleake

gpwilliams said:


> I am happy to see that MSB has an alto trombone. This is missing from many brass libraries (of course VSL has it).


This is one of the things I am most looking forward to... all the additional instruments beyond the usual Bb trumpets/horns/bones/tubas.

I love how OT in Ark 2 gave us so many alternative brass instruments, and all with legatos. It's one of my favourites currently because there is such a rich variety of brass sounds in that library. With MSB, having some solo versions of these less recorded instruments (if they are recorded well), would be awesome. They haven't demonstrated them yet, I'm very keen to hear them.


----------



## sinkd

My impression of the sound of MSB is that it is stunning. Really perfect and true to the sound of brass sections recorded in place. Add auto divisi and A.R.T to that and color me sold. Well done, Audiobro! Modern Scoring Brass was worth waiting for.


----------



## constaneum

miket said:


> I don't think anyone knows at this point. I'd love to see the original samples ported over to the new player, plus some newly recorded articulations. LASS is already so strong, I don't think a totally fresh start would be necessary. It just needs some more content.



if i'm not mistaken, Audiobro previously did mention there'll be some new contents right ?


----------



## HelixK

zolhof said:


> The trumpet examples sound like something straight out of Apollo 13, very similar to Timothy Morrison's rich tone. Nothing thin about it, at least not to my ears. Don't mistake the overprocessed brass sound that plagues virtual instruments with what a real ensemble sounds like. I presume you can dial whatever tone you prefer, from crappy to happy, with the 5 mics mixes and adjustable stage.
> 
> And judging by the quick glimpse of the GUI, MSB looks like a programmer's dream. Think "Sample Modeling for dummies" level of control. I think this is going to turn out to be a very versatile library if you don't expect it to do all the heavy lifting for you.





sinkd said:


> My impression of the sound of MSB is that it is stunning. Really perfect and true to the sound of brass sections recorded in place. Add auto divisi and A.R.T to that and color me sold. Well done, Audiobro! Modern Scoring Brass was worth waiting for.





artomatic said:


> Had a chance to listen and watch the walkthrough again today after a good night's rest and awesome coffee...
> I have to say that my previous comment on MSB yesterday was a bit premature.
> The individual instrument patches actually sounded great on their own.
> I still think the demos themselves sounded thin as a whole (not just MSB).
> Perhaps they deserve better mixing/mastering treatments?
> Paying more attention to the limited walkthrough, this library offers more options and flexibility than my other major brass libs.
> This thing is loaded with smart patches and articulations - real variable attack control, awesome auto divisi engine, synced trills and crescendos, polyphonic legato, assignable repeat keys, auto rhythm tool, just to name a few.
> 
> I'll be $599 poorer come Tuesday. Dang it.



Fair enough, I didn't take into consideration things like microphone mixes and the brilliant script behind all Audiobro libraries. I should know better, I use LASS all the time.

I'm one of AudioBro's most vocal supporters and when MSB was announced I couldn't contain my excitement. The demos were just a bit disappointing, not to the detriment of the composers, it's a classic case of high expectations leading to disappointment. 

I also got really used to CSB during those months of waiting, so there is that. My impressions were premature and unfair to AudioBro, I will wait for more examples, user demos, and other helpful resources to finally make an informed decision.


----------



## CT

constaneum said:


> if i'm not mistaken, Audiobro previously did mention there'll be some new contents right ?



I don't know, but a few of you seem to remember that. Encouraging if so. I think that's the right direction.


----------



## zolhof

miket said:


> I don't know, but a few of you seem to remember that. Encouraging if so. I think that's the right direction.



It was a post at the Audiobro forums by Andrew on August 31, 2017 :



> We will be announcing a new product very very soon (it's in beta... and not strings) and it will reveal a lot about Audiobro's future direction insofar as approach to patches and standardization of many things. It will feature a new engine (still Kontakt but with 100% new and better scripts and a completely new re-design with new features and improved algorithms). I bring this up because *future updates of LASS will be based on this new and highly intuitive and powerful engine. And not only will it have the new functionally of the new engine, but it will have new sample content etc.*
> 
> We've been working very hard on this because we needed an engine that could satisfy any type of orchestral library we threw at it without redesigning and re-programming it.
> 
> Thanks for your patience and I hope this helps.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew K
> audiobro



New samples confirmed.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

HelixK said:


> The demos were just a bit disappointing, not to the detriment of the composers, it's a classic case of high expectations leading to disappointment



Have you listened to Daniel Beijbom's demo? It's pretty impressive to me.

https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/


----------



## NoamL

Adding up from the Kontakt instances shown in the video.... MSB can apparently load 4 Trumpets, 8 Horns, 4 Tenor + 2 Bass Trombones, and 2 Tubas in 8.28 GB of RAM. That's really not bad at all! That is just the main articulations (no mutes) and presumably a single mic position.


----------



## constaneum

i wonder why the GUI shows Con Sordino.....is that referring to mutes?


----------



## kevthurman

constaneum said:


> i wonder why the GUI shows Con Sordino.....is that referring to mutes?


That's what Con Sordino means


----------



## Simon Ravn

I think it sounds pretty nice, and the UI implementation seems stellar - like the children choir. However, I think the lack of sampled ensembles will be a big problem...


----------



## constaneum

kevthurman said:


> That's what Con Sordino means



Pardon my lack of knowledge....i thought it's more commonly used for strings where as in brass, mostly called mute instead of con sordino right ?


----------



## Dave Connor

Simon Ravn said:


> ... I think the lack of sampled ensembles will be a big problem...


A very nagging problem for me (and I assume others) is creating chords with the same exact instrument. That’s a realism killer. So you end up stacking an identical instrument on itself or blending libraries that are too disparate sounding which perfectly inverts the problem. So, a headache in either case (more time, more work.) Not to mention finally having far more instrument choices if something just doesn’t sit right (say, between two bones: you now have two more to chose from.) All this in the context of the same library, same interface, controllers etc. MSB (theoretically) is an enhancing of the mock-up process on several planes - a very welcome development.

What’s obvious to me, is that someone who does mockups and understands these basic recurring needs created the library to meet them and did an excellent job of it. The fact that the sound of the library is what people are deciding on, shows how well they have addressed all other important aspects. As far as layered instruments, those tend to sound better because of the nature of that captured sound. There are good ensembles out there but nothing like this multi instrument collection which is where there is quite a lack.

The new developments such as the variable attack on sustains is another step toward realism, variety and the relief of the dreaded _sameness_ in sample use. Multiple sample availability has been a holy grail for sometime, hence the advent of Round Robbin. Multi-instrument an even better option.

I’m sure you’re not against all the above but would prefer the _addition_ of ensembles which is always a plus I agree. Seeing this answer to a fundamental problem in sample libraries since their inception is just too positive for me to see MSB as lacking in some fundamental way.


----------



## fantasy sound

constaneum said:


> Pardon my lack of knowledge....i thought it's more commonly used for strings where as in brass, mostly called mute instead of con sordino right ?



I guess the preference of the word mute over con sordino is largely influenced by the various brass “mute” types in jazz. 

In classical music scores, on the other hand, con sordino can equally be used for both brass and strings, and it indicates muting by means of an actual mute, not by hand.


----------



## Eptesicus

I must admit this seems like a game changer! The first demo in particular sounds phenomenal in my opinion.

What will the full price be, as im very tempted to get this even though i cant afford it!


----------



## chocobitz825

its odd that there was a wave of doubt in the first day or so, and then suddenly a wave of positive opinions. Regardless of how we feel about the sound (since its totally subjective) we can't deny the concept and execution puts MSB in a league of its own.


----------



## Eptesicus

chocobitz825 said:


> its odd that there was a wave of doubt in the first day or so, and then suddenly a wave of positive opinions. Regardless of how we feel about the sound (since its totally subjective) we can't deny the concept and execution puts MSB in a league of its own.



I can understand some of the doubt. The trumpets don't sound quite as good as i would have liked, but they don't sound bad by any means. The horns sounds absolutely gorgeous and perhaps the best sounding horns i have heard, sample library wise.


----------



## chocobitz825

Eptesicus said:


> I can understand some of the doubt. The trumpets don't sound quite as good as i would have liked, but they don't sound bad by any means. The horns sounds absolutely gorgeous and perhaps the best sounding horns i have heard, sample library wise.



i suppose my issue is the tone of the brass doesn't fit in the places where I normally use brass in the way i use them. Perhaps this library will inspire new types of writing. The nature of these things right? you really won't know if it fits until you try.


----------



## Eptesicus

chocobitz825 said:


> i suppose my issue is the tone of the brass doesn't fit in the places where I normally use brass in the way i use them. Perhaps this library will inspire new types of writing. The nature of these things right? you really won't know if it fits until you try.



True.

I'm torn now. I was going to get cinematic studio brass as i have cinematic studio strings. But, whilst this is double the price, what it offers seems to be leaps ahead of CSB. 

Sounds wise i still love how CSB sounds, but the auto divisi and amount of instruments and articulations in MSB is huge.

However, there is no doubt CSB will blend better with CSS. 

Argh


----------



## chocobitz825

Eptesicus said:


> True.
> 
> I'm torn now. I was going to get cinematic studio brass as i have cinematic studio strings. But, whilst this is double the price, what it offers seems to be leaps ahead of CSB.
> 
> Sounds wise i still love how CSB sounds, but the auto divisi and amount of instruments and articulations in MSB is huge.
> 
> However, there is no doubt CSB will blend better with CSS.
> 
> Argh



CSB has been, for me, incredibly playable, but not incredible dynamic. Its got some great strong tone, but I find that Ive not been satisfied with its dynamics. It seems like its mostly just allowing you to adjust the volume on the same pretty strong attacked samples. I've definitely felt better dynamic range from Orchestral Tools and Spitfire.


----------



## holywilly

Auto divisi.....I’m sold!


----------



## kevthurman

constaneum said:


> Pardon my lack of knowledge....i thought it's more commonly used for strings where as in brass, mostly called mute instead of con sordino right ?


"Con Sordino" is simply Italian for "with mute". It's common to see it also in brass parts. Hell, I've even seen it in some woodwind parts, but usually those are more specific to the piece. Also common to see "with mute" in string parts.


----------



## Eptesicus

Does anyone think the colour scheme and marketing material is remarkably similar to that used in Forzo? 

To be honest, this makes a library like Forzo seem quite expensive in comparison.


----------



## erica-grace

Eptesicus said:


> Does anyone think the colour scheme is remarkably similar to that used in Forzo?



Umm, no?













Not sure what you mean by "marketing material"


----------



## jbuhler

Eptesicus said:


> Does anyone think the colour scheme and marketing material is remarkably similar to that used in Forzo?
> 
> To be honest, this makes a library like Forzo seem quite expensive in comparison.


They both have a big brass knob, and some of the color scheme for the rest of the GUI follows from that, but I mean they are both brass libraries, so that's not exactly surprising.


----------



## Eptesicus

erica-grace said:


> Umm, no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "marketing material"




Well the black and gold with light spots i mean - pretty similar if you ask me 

https://heavyocity.com/product/forzo/
https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/


----------



## jbuhler

Eptesicus said:


> Well the black and gold with light spots i mean - pretty similar if you ask me
> 
> https://heavyocity.com/product/forzo/
> https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/


To me, it looks to me more like their Genesis library (maybe also their symphony series string library for NI) combined with the tile idea for articulations from CSS/CSB (or whoever it is that pioneered that layout). Then using a brass inspired color scheme. Just like Forzo takes the basic idea of Novo and applied a brass inspired color scheme.


----------



## ridgero

I have to admit, I really really like the concept of the Auto-Divisi mode.


----------



## NoamL

chocobitz825 said:


> CSB has been, for me, incredibly playable, but not incredible dynamic. Its got some great strong tone, but I find that Ive not been satisfied with its dynamics. It seems like its mostly just allowing you to adjust the volume on the same pretty strong attacked samples. I've definitely felt better dynamic range from Orchestral Tools and Spitfire.



My experience is the opposite!  The dynamic range is p-ff on the legatos and mp-fff on the marcato sustains.


----------



## José Herring

People complaining of the thin sound in the trumpets, in the first example that thin sound is actually more of an orchestration issue with regards to range and perhaps writing straight triads for trumpets. Gets kind of that Mariachi tone. The second example by ED W doesn't suffer from that initially. Trumpets are a little lower and supported underneath by trombones and later horns--leads to a fuller sound. 

Personally I've found that in my experience the Bflat trumpets are thin sounding once above their high g. I've run into issues with that. I prefer C trumpets, they sound fuller and a little less "bandy" sounding to me. I think C trumpet if I remember correctly is preferred by most orchestral players, but of that I'm not sure, maybe it was just in New York.

Towards the end the demo by Ed Watkins falls into the trap of the awkward orchestration for trumpets, that lone solo high thing screaming in perfect intonation with out even so much as a little note crack or intonation adjustment, dead give away for samples, but up until then and I hate saying this If I heard it out of context I'd probably be inclined to think it was a real section especially in the opening 11 sec. 

Also, for that high exposed stuff I'd lean on Sample Modeling The Trumpet where you can add a little crack and intonation difficulties and wobbling in to the programming.


----------



## José Herring

Personally the more I listen the more I'm staring to love this library. Low brass is excellent. I'd love to hear more demos that show off a range. Brass quintet, soft passages in orchestral settings ect. Really hear the range of what can be done. There are already so many libraries that can do that "hollywood" sound, I'd like to hear other types of sounds since that "Hollywood" sound has become more cliché and going forward we'll need to produce a different range of sounds.


----------



## Hanu_H

josejherring said:


> People complaining of the thin sound in the trumpets, in the first example that thin sound is actually more of an orchestration issue with regards to range and perhaps writing straight triads for trumpets. Gets kind of that Mariachi tone. The second example by ED W doesn't suffer from that initially. Trumpets are a little lower and supported underneath by trombones and later horns--leads to a fuller sound.
> 
> Personally I've found that in my experience the Bflat trumpets are thin sounding once above their high g. I've run into issues with that. I prefer C trumpets, they sound fuller and a little less "bandy" sounding to me. I think C trumpet if I remember correctly is preferred by most orchestral players, but of that I'm not sure, maybe it was just in New York.
> 
> Towards the end the demo by Ed Watkins falls into the trap of the awkward orchestration for trumpets, that lone solo high thing screaming in perfect intonation with out even so much as a little note crack or intonation adjustment, dead give away for samples, but up until then and I hate saying this If I heard it out of context I'd probably be inclined to think it was a real section especially in the opening 11 sec.
> 
> Also, for that high exposed stuff I'd lean on Sample Modeling The Trumpet where you can add a little crack and intonation difficulties and wobbling in to the programming.



What I can see in the GUI, adding some Sizzle and detune could fix that problem with the high trumpet notes...


----------



## marclawsonmusic

When people start posting user demos, it will tell me more of what I need to know. The user demos in the early days of CSB were great.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

josejherring said:


> Personally I've found that in my experience the Bflat trumpets are thin sounding once above their high g. I've run into issues with that.



Old BB trick: double high tpt. with flute.


----------



## gjelul

josejherring said:


> People complaining of the thin sound in the trumpets, in the first example that thin sound is actually more of an orchestration issue with regards to range and perhaps writing straight triads for trumpets. Gets kind of that Mariachi tone. The second example by ED W doesn't suffer from that initially. Trumpets are a little lower and supported underneath by trombones and later horns--leads to a fuller sound.
> 
> Personally I've found that in my experience the Bflat trumpets are thin sounding once above their high g. I've run into issues with that. I prefer C trumpets, they sound fuller and a little less "bandy" sounding to me. I think C trumpet if I remember correctly is preferred by most orchestral players, but of that I'm not sure, maybe it was just in New York.
> 
> Towards the end the demo by Ed Watkins falls into the trap of the awkward orchestration for trumpets, that lone solo high thing screaming in perfect intonation with out even so much as a little note crack or intonation adjustment, dead give away for samples, but up until then and I hate saying this If I heard it out of context I'd probably be inclined to think it was a real section especially in the opening 11 sec.
> 
> Also, for that high exposed stuff I'd lean on Sample Modeling The Trumpet where you can add a little crack and intonation difficulties and wobbling in to the programming.





The writing / orchestration plays a huge role on how the samples behave / sound. But for the moment these are the only 2 demos available to base an opinion on the library and the sound of it - usually the initial demos of a product are the best demos (could have sounded better imo.)

I still think that the overall sound is 'thin' (coming from a classically trained trumpet player and still playing for the past 25 years.) What I am missing is 'bite' in the sound. It's somohew too perfect, and sounds 'synthy' at times (especially in the second demo.) Maybe more 'massaging' was needed in the production of the demo, the releases of the samples or other tweaks to make it sound closer to what it should sound. But, this is what we have at the moment to listen too. 

I like the sound, however, in the limited Andrew's walkthrough and I hope that more will come showing more of the 'naked' sound. I'm also starting to think that maybe it's a taste in what the orchestral sound should be from the Audiobro team and the applied recording techniques, hall used, gear used, etc. (LASS comes to mind - it sounds 'thin' as well.) 

As for a sound reference in all being discussed here is an example:


Audiobro is one of my favorite developers and I have all they've made so far. I'll probably end up buying MSB anyways just for the great GUI, articulations, list of instr. and the rest of the great features.


----------



## Noeticus

This is my first post.

I assume everyone that hears deficiencies in the Audiobro MSB demo's are listening to them with quality studio monitors etc. and not cheap computer speakers? If this is a ridiculous question to ask in a forum like this, then my apologies. 

When I play the demo's in my 5.1 Surround Studio they sound great!


----------



## Mucusman

FYI: Naked demos _are _promised from Audiobro. Andrew just posted to this effect on the Audiobro forum.


----------



## Eptesicus

Noeticus said:


> This is my first post.
> 
> I assume everyone that hears deficiencies in the Audiobro MSB demo's are listening to them with quality studio monitors etc. and not cheap computer speakers? If this is a ridiculous question to ask in a forum like this, then my apologies.
> 
> When I play the demo's in my 5.1 Surround Studio they sound great!




This. I have to admit, i was blown away the first time i listened to the first demo (Reaching the Summit). I was genuinely impressed by how authentic and massive it sounded.


----------



## kevthurman

Noeticus said:


> This is my first post.
> 
> I assume everyone that hears deficiencies in the Audiobro MSB demo's are listening to them with quality studio monitors etc. and not cheap computer speakers? If this is a ridiculous question to ask in a forum like this, then my apologies.
> 
> When I play the demo's in my 5.1 Surround Studio they sound great!


I mean it doesn't take studio monitors to tell when a library sounds thin compared to real recordings or other libraries on that same sound system. That being said, I think people have judged this library too early given the limited demos available.


----------



## José Herring

kevthurman said:


> I mean it doesn't take studio monitors to tell when a library sounds thin compared to real recordings or other libraries on that same sound system. That being said, I think people have judged this library too early given the limited demos available.


Save for the high trumpets, I'm just not hearing the thinness. So I think that any jud


gjelul said:


> The writing / orchestration plays a huge role on how the samples behave / sound. But for the moment these are the only 2 demos available to base an opinion on the library and the sound of it - usually the initial demos of a product are the best demos (could have sounded better imo.)
> 
> I still think that the overall sound is 'thin' (coming from a classically trained trumpet player and still playing for the past 25 years.) What I am missing is 'bite' in the sound. It's somohew too perfect, and sounds 'synthy' at times (especially in the second demo.) Maybe more 'massaging' was needed in the production of the demo, the releases of the samples or other tweaks to make it sound closer to what it should sound. But, this is what we have at the moment to listen too.
> 
> I like the sound, however, in the limited Andrew's walkthrough and I hope that more will come showing more of the 'naked' sound. I'm also starting to think that maybe it's a taste in what the orchestral sound should be from the Audiobro team and the applied recording techniques, hall used, gear used, etc. (LASS comes to mind - it sounds 'thin' as well.)
> 
> As for a sound reference in all being discussed here is an example:
> 
> 
> Audiobro is one of my favorite developers and I have all they've made so far. I'll probably end up buying MSB anyways just for the great GUI, articulations, list of instr. and the rest of the great features.



I hear you. As a clarinet player, I think sometimes we are our own worst enemies by trying to compare that instrument that we've slaved so hard over to a sample library. 

I personally can't stand any clarinet library, expect for the Herring Clarinet of course. Something really special about that one.


----------



## kevthurman

josejherring said:


> Save for the high trumpets, I'm just not hearing the thinness. So I think that any jud
> 
> I hear you. As a clarinet player, I think sometimes we are our own worst enemies by trying to compare that instrument that we've slaved so hard over to a sample library.
> 
> I personally can't stand any clarinet library, expect for the Herring Clarinet of course. Something really special about that one.


I don't think it's particularly thin either. Honestly I've been impressed enough by a few of the features that I'm going to be first in line to buy it tomorrow. For me it fills the holes that other brass libraries just couldn't before, especially the attack control and the individual sampling. Cheaper than BB(for now at least) and seemingly equal or more content when you really dig in to it.


----------



## Guy Rowland

A few people here claimed that they thought the video sounded better than the audio demos. Just for those curious / bored, I thought I'd phase invert the video and audio of the beginning of the Reaching The Summit demo to see if they null.

Short answer - they don't. Quite a lot going on between them, all in the mids and highs. I'd guess either its compression artefacts, or different mastering between the two. Hear for yourself - https://www.dropbox.com/s/x8maftq81...hase cancelled video and audio demos.wav?dl=0 . For reference, I've kept it live until just after Andrew's narration introduction, so you can gauge what kind of levels are involved. There's an audio dip just before where it all comes into normal sound.

All recorded straight from the Audiobro website via Loopback into Adobe Audition.


----------



## pderbidge

Couldn't the "thin" sound that some are referring to here be the Audiobro approach of keeping the library as dry as possible to where it is up to us to make it as "thick" as we want to with our own processing? That's what I like most about LASS is how versatile it is to sound close and intimate or big and Hollywood sounding with the right verb and eq treatment. I like the sound of the library so far, although I will admit that at times it does get a little too perfect but I chalk that up to the Auto divisi where I think there are times where you just need to program these things in yourself if you really want to get that ultimate realism. I am probably the last that should give advice on programming these things though since I still consider myself a bit of a newcomer to all of this.


----------



## Brian Nowak

I think some people are perceiving more negativity than is being displayed and are misconstruing most people's statements. 

I think this library was hugely anticipated. A lot of the specs have been known for a very long time, and people had time to build up an expectation in their minds. 

I haven't seen anybody say it sounds terrible or even subpar. I think some people (myself included ) had an ideal in mind and what they've heard so far hasn't absolutely convinced them. There is very little material to listen to and more will come out.

Right now there is an absurd amount of speculation about things we just don't know. Saying the composers mixed or arranged their pieces in a way that forced the brass to sound that way makes little to no sense. It's just as likely their pieces are a great representation of how the instruments sound. 

For what it's worth I think Daniel's piece was friggin awesome. I just felt there were moments where the "sampliness" of the brass parts came through. I have talked with Daniel at pretty good length about his dedication to mockups, and that guy... he puts in the work to get his midi chops very realistic sounding. So my view is more that this is just the way the library sounds. And if you love it way cool. If you aren't sold it's probably not your cuppa but we will find out more soon.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

pderbidge said:


> Couldn't the "thin" sound that some are referring to here be the Audiobro approach of keeping the library as dry as possible to where it is up to us to make it as "thick" as we want to with our own processing? That's what I like most about LASS is how versatile it is to sound close and intimate or big and Hollywood sounding with the right verb and eq treatment. I like the sound of the library so far, although I will admit that at times it does get a little too perfect but I chalk that up to the Auto divisi where I think there are times where you just need to program these things in yourself if you really want to get that ultimate realism. I am probably the last that should give advice on programming these things though since I still consider myself a bit of a newcomer to all of this.



Honestly I think people are too used to samples at this point, and forget that brass doesn't keep it's bottom end at FF. Higher frequencies dominate - and even players of these instruments might be confused because they still feel the lower end because they're attached to the instrument 0 ft away, but at the end of the day, that low end slowly gets cancelled out by the top. Someone even put the recording I refenced in this thread as some sort of dichotomy, without realizing that I'd posted it right next to the demos - and a quick AB shows that it's wayyyyy closer than people give it credit for - and TLJ is probably the darkest/warmest of all 8 film sound tracks. And it's important to realize that Williams tends to keep his dynamics overall pretty low anyways - which allows them to retain their warmth a bit. 

if you're used to zimmers 12 horns playing at mf - this will sound thin. Part of the benefit of having a huge ensemble is that even playing at MF it creates a massive sound.

Likewise, something that programming wise I suggest(especially when using things like samplemodeling) is to have 1 "lead player" and have each consequent player divide themselves between that dynamic and the next lower. I.e. if you have the lead trumpet on at ff, have the 2nd player between ff and f(or f) and have the 3rd on f or mf. You can get away with more of a difference in dynamics during unison - but you have to stay closer during divisi because then it's an issue of blending(and likely going to have the higher players playing softer to blend better because of volume disparity)


----------



## gjelul

Noeticus said:


> This is my first post.
> 
> I assume everyone that hears deficiencies in the Audiobro MSB demo's are listening to them with quality studio monitors etc. and not cheap computer speakers? If this is a ridiculous question to ask in a forum like this, then my apologies.
> 
> When I play the demo's in my 5.1 Surround Studio they sound great!




5.1 Focal SM9s here...


----------



## constaneum

marclawsonmusic said:


> When people start posting user demos, it will tell me more of what I need to know. The user demos in the early days of CSB were great.



it all goes to user's sound preference. Some likes it thin, some doesnt. anyway...i'm done shopping for brass. i'm settled with CSB happily so yea. even though i like MSB mainly on their approach for this product, i'm done. Looking forward to hearing LASS 3 and a supplementary woodwinds to be used in line with Berlin Woodwinds.


----------



## gjelul

if you're used to zimmers 12 horns playing at mf - this will sound thin. Part of the benefit of having a huge ensemble is that even playing at MF it creates a massive sound.

nothing to do with this one.


----------



## Dave Connor

As convenient as auto-divisi is - as noted above - every instrument will be at the identical cross-fade point (vol etc.,) and that is going to kill realism in too many ways to count. A library such as this allows you to avoid that kind of thing (which belongs to earlier sample limitations such as the same sampled instrument tripled to form a triad.)


----------



## chocobitz825

Dave Connor said:


> As convenient as auto-divisi is - as noted above - every instrument will be at the identical cross-fade point (vol etc.,) and that is going to kill realism in too many ways to count. A library such as this allows you to avoid that kind of thing (which belongs to earlier sample limitations such as the same sampled instrument tripled.)



I believe since this is similar to genesis, they remedy this with the humanization options in the ensemble menu. for genesis it was able to separate the various male and female vocals by ms divisions or randomization.


----------



## kevthurman

When it comes out, I'm going to do an in-depth review with a new format I want to try. Here's how it will work:

The first video will be a series of standard orchestral brass section excerpts, some accompanied and some unaccompanied. This will be to test how well the instruments blend with eachother and also with a full orchestra. It will also test how well they do in a real full orchestral context. It will include a number of famous late romantic and early 20th century brass moments as well as a couple of my own cues that I'm working on as we speak. I will also demonstrate with one of the pieces several mic mixes to get an idea of the tone you get out of each mic.

The second video will focus on the individual instruments. Due to the nature of an individually sampled library, I thought it would be appropriate to create mock "auditions". Each instrument group has a short list of standard orchestral solo excerpts which they will play one by one so viewers can get an idea of what sort of tones they can get out of these instruments. The only instruments I didn't come up with good excerpts for were the cimbassi... They seem common in the sample world but I don't think I've ever seen one while playing in or viewing orchestra concerts and I don't know of any standard excerpts for them. Perhaps I'll write a short chorale for them or something.

The third will feature several film music moments, including a lot of Williams cues (sorry, I just feel like his style is very good to test brass against, and more contemporary styles seem to be written to make sample libraries sound good) as well as others, older and newer alike. I hope this one doesn't get taken down for copyright infringement, haha. If it does, I'll try to share the clips that don't get flagged onto this site. There will of course be the obligatory force theme and imperial march... But also some less standard stuff!

The fourth and final video will feature a few video game cues. Right now it includes some World of Warcraft, Skyrim, and Halo music. Might expand as I dig in.

I've always felt that library reviews are often very hard to really get much info from, at least personally. Demos are more useful because they really give a better in-context idea of how the library performs. With this format, there are real recordings to compare these pieces to which can highlight glaring failures in the libraries or shining victories. Additionally, it will act like a boot camp to teach me how to use what seems to be a very deep library. I have a "program" of pieces that I have been mulling over for the past week or so, but I don't want to post it because I probably won't do everything that's on it due to the sheer amount of time required for the amount of pieces I chose. Believe me, there's a _lot_ of stuff on there. For those on the fence, it might be worth checking it out as I hope to have at least the first video or two done by the end of the week. If this goes well, I hope to do it with other libraries in the future, although I won't probably have the money for something new for a good while.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

kevthurman said:


> When it comes out, I'm going to do an in-depth review with a new format I want to try. Here's how it will work:



Wow. If you have time to do something this detailed, knock yourself out! I can’t wait to hear it.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dave Connor said:


> As convenient as auto-divisi is - as noted above - every instrument will be at the identical cross-fade point (vol etc.,) and that is going to kill realism in too many ways to count. A library such as this allows you to avoid that kind of thing (which belongs to earlier sample limitations such as the same sampled instrument tripled.)




I know I personally don't plan on using the auto divisi for anything except writing - and will use separate tracks per regardless. Considering these instruments were all recorded centered, I'll much prefer using my own spatialization in the end, as well as control my own dynamics per instrument(even if this involves just re-recording cc's instead of the whole passage).




gjelul said:


> "if you're used to zimmers 12 horns playing at mf - this will sound thin. Part of the benefit of having a huge ensemble is that even playing at MF it creates a massive sound."
> 
> nothing to do with this one.



You can very clearly see that much of some of those mockups were at 127 or near it. Most likely a consequence of the library seeming very agile, which(if you've played samplemodeling) tends to cause you to want to create jumpy frenetic lines. 4 trumpets at mf would produce about the same volume as 2 at ff, but be much warmer/fatter. 

same situation with horns. Example: 1 horn playing F = about 3 horns playing mp. To use sample libraries as an example = horn 1 of berlin brass at 127 = horns 2+3+4 at maybe 25%?

here is an example where I perform exactly that. horn 1 at max, other 3 to match the level. 

and at the end - I have unison all cc127 - then the same note where all 4 horns are playing different dynamics. 100% - 85% - 70% - 55%

notice the 2nd one sounds much fuller - despite having very little drop in volume.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/dynamics-mp3.19540/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## ProfoundSilence

apologies, that one still has a faint amount of ensemble blended in - forgot to mute before I exported.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/dynamics2-mp3.19541/][/AUDIOPLUS]

and like I said, you can hear the significant difference between the warmth and bottom end, and how much thinner even(basically mf?) that the BB horn goes to. 

if you have lip blistering ff, the pattern doesn't stop - and it gets thinner and thinner and thinner.


----------



## HelixK

kevthurman said:


> With this format, there are real recordings to compare these pieces to which can highlight glaring failures in the libraries or shining victories



That's subjective to the skills and knowledge of the user. When Cinematic Studio Brass was released there were countless variations of the same Williams' motifs posted by a multitude of bedroom composers and most of them were very bad (no offense, just being real here). If I were to judge the quality of the library based on those examples, I would have never bought CSB. Therefore a bad mockup by someone who does not know what he/she's doing will only highlight his/her own limitations, not the library's. And there is nothing wrong with that, you should hear my stuff! My only gripe with your format -- _there are real recordings to compare these pieces to which can highlight glaring failures in the libraries or shining victories _-- is that you are excluding yourself from the equation. 

I appreciate what you are trying to do and I hope you succeed, as I will certainly be interested in hearing any user demos but keep in mind that you may be doing a disservice to AudioBro when you say things like that and put the blame solely on MSB. Unless you are Andy Blaney in disguise, then if the mockups suck, it's 100% _a_ _glaring failure in the library _


----------



## ProfoundSilence

HelixK said:


> Unless you are Andy Blaney in disguise, then if the mockups suck, it's 100% _a_ _glaring failure in the library _



To be fair, Andy Blaney is just the british Troels Folmann. You could sample the clothing section at a thrift store and either of those two would make countless buy it.


----------



## Dave Connor

chocobitz825 said:


> I believe since this is similar to genesis, they remedy this with the humanization options in the ensemble menu. for genesis it was able to separate the various male and female vocals by ms divisions or randomization.


I think I understand (don’t know Genesis) but randomization isn’t anything like the deliberate finesse often necessary on individual parts (what happens real world.) It may alleviate things a bit but not a satisfactory solution by any means.


----------



## Dave Connor

ProfoundSilence said:


> I know I personally don't plan on using the auto divisi for anything except writing - and will use separate tracks per regardless. Considering these instruments were all recorded centered, I'll much prefer using my own spatialization in the end, as well as control my own dynamics per instrument(even if this involves just re-recording cc's instead of the whole passage).


I agree that’s the best use of auto divisi: Writing then mocking up later. I didn’t know MSB is a center recorded library. What will you use for spatialization? I’ve always used Waves S1 but wondering if there’s something better these days.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dave Connor said:


> I agree that’s the best use of auto divisi: Writing then mocking up later. I didn’t know MSB is a center recorded library. What will you use for spatialization? I’ve always used Waves S1 but wondering if there’s something better these days.




s1 is pretty good. Dialing in haas + left right levels can get pretty far. Could also use a really tiny amount of MIR - but that entirely depends on how well mir likes the source. Also putting a tilt eq on the channel if it needs it.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I haven't used sample modeling in a verrryyyy long time - but just winging it(and no real game plan either) I recorded each step using the same trumpet 1. 

1.) delayed left channel by 6 milliseconds. Just used my ear until I "heard it" between 2-3 o'clock.
2.) I lowered the left channel by 1.7 decibels - again, just trying to feel it at 2-3 o'clock, but push it back a foot or two. 
3.) I used an instance of pro-Q3 to add a slight tilt filter "brightening" the right channel, and a much wider tilt on the left channel, darkening, and "fattening" it. This was to add some warmth/distance on the left side while adding extra brightness/presence on the right side.
4.) Seventh heaven. Went into interiors and picked the first one that seemed workable(happened to be adjacent floor) and dialed in a quicker decay of .3 seconds and set a predelay of 10ms - then used a plugin wetness of only 26% to make this simply feel like it's a "spot mic" rather than a contact mic. 
5.) I added mir pro trumpet ensemble with a wetness of 22%(plugin wetness again) I also added a pro-Q 3 after, simply rounding off the top, going far beyond what I normally would cut and then dialing back the plugin wetness to 18% - which basically creates the feel of a spot mic blended with a tree, rather than the mistake of pushing the entire thing back into an orchestral hall. I also put a reasonably wide band around 700hz on the right channel only - and boosted it a few DB(this is only at 18% wetness mind you)

so after this last step of essentially parallel reverb + parallel EQ - I went back into the original instrument and dialed the virtual stage into the current chain, by adding slightly more ER and a little distance within the trumpet instrument. 

so there are 5 stages and 1 improvisation with "final settings". I know plenty here know these little bits and tricks, but I figured for those who aren't familiar with them - each step was left in for you to hear what each tweak does.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/spatializing-mp3.19543/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/spatializing-mp3.19543/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Dave Connor

Wow, very interesting. I’ll check out your results. I can’t imagine doing an extstensive process after dealing with that for so many years with VSL: S1; ER and Tail (along with eq to solve close miking issues) but I am curious what you did for SM. Obviously the in situ popularity is precisely to do away with all that. I wonder if people will balk at MSB for that reason but it seems to me that Brass placement should not be too torturous a process.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dave Connor said:


> Wow, very interesting. I’ll check out your results. I can’t imagine doing an extstensive process after dealing with that for so many years with VSL: S1; ER and Tail (along with eq to solve close miking issues) but I am curious what you did for SM. Obviously the in situ popularity is precisely to do away with all that. I wonder if people will balk at MSB for that reason but it seems to me that Brass placement should not be too torturous a process.



It usually doesn't take a whole lot - most of those steps are tiny, and in reality - it's mainly just to show how many ways you can change the stereo image without having to drown something in reverb.

Could be boring and use v.s.s. or panagement as well. Honestly I downloaded the reaper demo again to poke around on it - so I was mostly just playing with the built in little plugins with no gui that come with it. Totally different topic, but I wish we lived in a world were other daws could risk having a downloadable demo that didn't make you jump through hoops. Unfortunately people don't always do the right thing(and sometimes all you can do is make it harder for them to do the wrong thing)


----------



## muk

The concept and functionality are simply amazing. For the way I work having recorded every player individually is a huge advantage over just a soloist and a2 samples. With the latter you are in all sorts of trouble if you want to score a choral with four independent horn parts, for example. For me Modern Scoring Brass has the concept got right.
Unfortunately I am not too happy with the sound personally.

For example, compare these shorts articulation sounds:





The Modern Scoring Brass example does not sound good to my ears. It simply doesn't. True, you could use eq and reverb to mask it (and for that example you would definitely add some reverb in a real usage situation. It's actually great that Andrew didn't to show the sound of the library). But if you don't happen to like the source sound (which is the case for me here), there is only so much you can do. You can't transform it into something else entirely. It's interesting how different these two sound, given that both used a scoring studio as recording location. Cinematic Studio Brass sounds much more refined and full here out of the box.

Another thing I didn't like too much from the walkthrough video: in my opinion the timbre changes very little throughout the dynamic layers. The crossfade is very good, there is no phasing I could hear. But the tone of the instruments changes too little for my taste. Brass instruments are capable of a great variety of timbres. And I didn't hear that captured in the walkthrough. For example here:



cc1 moves through the entire dynamic range of the horns. I actually do like the sound of the horns here. But the timbre sounds quite unfiorm to me until it reaches fortissimo. Also from the video it seems that the library has only three dynamic layers (p, mf, ff), which is not much for brass, especially since the top layer has the distinct brassy timbre.

While I do like the concept very much, I am not digging the sound from what I have heard so far. Let's see if that changes when a more in-depth look at the various articulations of each instrument is available.


----------



## Mihkel Zilmer

I wish there was more demo material available already! Really need to hear those close mics to better understand how flexible the sound will be. And the sound really is the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger - everything else about this offering is deeply impressive.

I think that the sonically less pleasing parts of what I am hearing now are probably a result of centered recordings and spatialisation IRs - for the record, that is also what my earlier comment was referring to - I think the basic sound of the instruments is pretty nice, but the "room" has a metallic ring or sheen to it that I find a bit unpleasant.

But then again - maybe it's just me and my personal preferences. I really don't like the sound of most spatial placement plugins. VSS, MIR, Precedence - they just don't sound good to my ears.. In a few cases SPAT has sounded pretty good - but less so at other times.. But many other people seem to enjoy the sound they get from these plugins.

Hopefully upcoming demos & videos will change my mind about the sound - loving the instrumentation choices here and would very much like to have this library as one of my go-to's for brass. 

(Listening on HEDD Type 20 in an acoustically treated studio)


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

muk said:


> The concept and functionality are simply amazing. For the way I work having recorded every player individually is a huge advantage over just a soloist and a2 samples. With the latter you are in all sorts of trouble if you want to score a choral with four independent horn parts, for example. For me Modern Scoring Brass has the concept got right.
> Unfortunately I am not too happy with the sound personally.
> 
> For example, compare these shorts articulation sounds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Modern Scoring Brass example does not sound good to my ears. It simply doesn't. True, you could use eq and reverb to mask it (and for that example you would definitely add some reverb in a real usage situation. It's actually great that Andrew didn't to show the sound of the library). But if you don't happen to like the source sound (which is the case for me here), there is only so much you can do. You can't transform it into something else entirely. It's interesting how different these two sound, given that both used a scoring studio as recording location. Cinematic Studio Brass sounds much more refined and full here out of the box.
> 
> Another thing I didn't like too much from the walkthrough video: in my opinion the timbre changes very little throughout the dynamic layers. The crossfade is very good, there is no phasing I could hear. But the tone of the instruments changes too little for my taste. Brass instruments are capable of a great variety of timbres. And I didn't hear that captured in the walkthrough. For example here:
> 
> 
> 
> cc1 moves through the entire dynamic range of the horns. I actually do like the sound of the horns here. But the timbre sounds quite unfiorm to me until it reaches fortissimo. Also from the video it seems that the library has only three dynamic layers (p, mf, ff), which is not much for brass, especially since the top layer has the distinct brassy timbre.
> 
> While I do like the concept very much, I am not digging the sound from what I have heard so far. Let's see if that changes when a more in-depth look at the various articulations of each instrument is available.




Yes, the short articulations on the trumpets quite doesn´t have that crispy punch which I find in CSB a way better solved and that is imo impossible to manage with post processing in the way that it does sound like in CSB because imo it is simply a matter of the performance of the players. Its that bite and attack which is missing and which is imo important when it comes to short fanfarish forte repetition figures.


----------



## jamwerks

The shorts on the above example of MSB just seem a bit too long for that tempo. Maybe there will be some Time Machine patches for mini tweaks?

Too bad imo that these are center recorded. For 99% of mixes people will use standard seating (also the case for WW's). Strings on the other hand have of course several different seating options that center-recorded isn't bad.

And this low price point (Junkie will probably have to follow suit) should allow most to purchase both!


----------



## Eptesicus

muk said:


> The concept and functionality are simply amazing. For the way I work having recorded every player individually is a huge advantage over just a soloist and a2 samples. With the latter you are in all sorts of trouble if you want to score a choral with four independent horn parts, for example. For me Modern Scoring Brass has the concept got right.
> Unfortunately I am not too happy with the sound personally.
> 
> For example, compare these shorts articulation sounds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Modern Scoring Brass example does not sound good to my ears. It simply doesn't. True, you could use eq and reverb to mask it (and for that example you would definitely add some reverb in a real usage situation. It's actually great that Andrew didn't to show the sound of the library). But if you don't happen to like the source sound (which is the case for me here), there is only so much you can do. You can't transform it into something else entirely. It's interesting how different these two sound, given that both used a scoring studio as recording location. Cinematic Studio Brass sounds much more refined and full here out of the box.
> 
> Another thing I didn't like too much from the walkthrough video: in my opinion the timbre changes very little throughout the dynamic layers. The crossfade is very good, there is no phasing I could hear. But the tone of the instruments changes too little for my taste. Brass instruments are capable of a great variety of timbres. And I didn't hear that captured in the walkthrough. For example here:
> 
> 
> 
> cc1 moves through the entire dynamic range of the horns. I actually do like the sound of the horns here. But the timbre sounds quite unfiorm to me until it reaches fortissimo. Also from the video it seems that the library has only three dynamic layers (p, mf, ff), which is not much for brass, especially since the top layer has the distinct brassy timbre.
> 
> While I do like the concept very much, I am not digging the sound from what I have heard so far. Let's see if that changes when a more in-depth look at the various articulations of each instrument is available.




On the flip side, from those two videos you posted, the horn shorts sound much better and tighter than the CSB ones.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> I wish there was more demo material available already! Really need to hear those close mics to better understand how flexible the sound will be. And the sound really is the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger - everything else about this offering is deeply impressive.
> 
> I think that the sonically less pleasing parts of what I am hearing now are probably a result of centered recordings and spatialisation IRs - for the record, that is also what my earlier comment was referring to - I think the basic sound of the instruments is pretty nice, but the "room" has a metallic ring or sheen to it that I find a bit unpleasant.
> 
> But then again - maybe it's just me and my personal preferences. I really don't like the sound of most spatial placement plugins. VSS, MIR, Precedence - they just don't sound good to my ears.. In a few cases SPAT has sounded pretty good - but less so at other times.. But many other people seem to enjoy the sound they get from these plugins.
> 
> Hopefully upcoming demos & videos will change my mind about the sound - loving the instrumentation choices here and would very much like to have this library as one of my go-to's for brass.
> 
> (Listening on HEDD Type 20 in an acoustically treated studio)


Honestly, I think better than stock-spatialization will make a huge difference, as well having each line tweaked. And considering these are real recordings - spatialization WITHOUT the need of artificial reverb is something we've not really had to play with much.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

jamwerks said:


> The shorts on the above example of MSB just seem a bit too long for that tempo. Maybe there will be some Time Machine patches for mini tweaks?
> 
> Too bad imo that these are center recorded. For 99% of mixes people will use standard seating (also the case for WW's). Strings on the other hand have of course several different seating options that center-recorded isn't bad.
> 
> And this low price point (Junkie will probably have to follow suit) should allow most to purchase both!



Yes, they are too soft and too long too. Shortening the samples could help a bit But I don´t think they will still get that attack which is needed for that. But that was always pretty tricky and difficult for sampling devs to get that things spot on. Sometimes I think they should just record that kind of articulations and built an algorithm which lets you do then your own things and have control over the note lengths (best would be not like 2-3 note lengths but more like a slider which lets dial in all kinds of shorts in between). Imo SM trumpets can handle those things quite ok..though then you have a lot to do with getting the tone quite right because they are recorded so dry(https://www.dropbox.com/s/thugd7xf4ew61ag/SM_REPS_FANFARE.mp3?dl=0)


----------



## Eptesicus

It is odd, because the bite and punch on the trumpets in the first demo (Reaching the Summit) sound excellent.


----------



## Saxer

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Sometimes I think they should just record that kind of articulations and built an algorithm which lets you do then your own things and have control over the note lengths (best would be not like 2-3 note lengths but more like a slider which lets dial in all kinds of shorts in between).


That's exactly what 8dio Century Brass does. There's a dial for the length of one shots. They are not stretched but select from a bunch of different recorded samples.


----------



## chocobitz825

I think it’s the curse of perfection. Everything sounds so perfect and inoffensive that it ends up being the best sounding synth brass ever..but doesn’t always succeed at sounding like a real brass performance. I’m sure it has its perfect fit for some projects but at the time being versatility doesn’t sound like it’s strong point. Early feedback only though


----------



## Noeticus

*Reaching The Summit - 'Modern Scoring Brass' Demo*

See...


----------



## richard kurek

we can find faults in all libraries , after we purchase we all adapt , that being said i compared the sound playing the same parts as the demos from my existing libraries , i find there's a liveliness to this library its a plus for anyones arsenal


----------



## Hans-Peter

Noeticus said:


> *Reaching The Summit - 'Modern Scoring Brass' Demo*
> 
> See...




Thanks! Apart from the constant ffff in the arrangement, the mix sounds much better in this video.


----------



## HelixK

Noeticus said:


> *Reaching The Summit - 'Modern Scoring Brass' Demo*
> 
> See...




Great track by a very talented composer, what's not to like about his writing? Sadly, as a demo, it falls short IMO. My first impression still stands: too polished, thin and uncomfortably metallic. At 00:39 you can clearly hear all these issues, it almost sounds like a synth patch.

Listen to this:



Now that you have a clear picture of how brass should sound (if you are going for a realistic approach that's it) listen to the MSB demos again and tell me something isn't weirdly off about it.

I wonder if that's the reason there are no naked demos yet? In this particular case, if the composer uploaded a naked version or soloed the instruments, it would be much harder to hide any sonic shortcomings.


----------



## Noeticus

The problem I have with the Audiobro Brass demo is that it's not just brass being used.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Noeticus said:


> The problem I have with the Audiobro Brass demo is that it's not just brass being used.



You probably have a problem with a lot of demos then...


----------



## lucor

What worries me the most at the moment is the dynamic range. For example in the introduction video at 7:42, you can see how the modwheel goes from above 64 all the way down to 1, and there doesn't seem to be any change whatsoever to the sound of the trumpets, not even in the volume?! I hope that's just a weird setting that can be changed.


----------



## Eptesicus

lucor said:


> What worries me the most at the moment is the dynamic range. For example in the introduction video at 7:42, you can see how the modwheel goes from above 64 all the way down to 1, and there doesn't seem to be any change whatsoever to the sound of the trumpets, not even in the volume?! I hope that's just a weird setting that can be changed.



The dynamics do change to my ear. You cant play a trumpet silently


----------



## Hanu_H

Noeticus said:


> *Reaching The Summit - 'Modern Scoring Brass' Demo*
> 
> See...



I hope we get a brass only version of this song as well. What I can hear from this dressed demo is that with a little use of EQ, I could get the brass sound a lot different if needed.


----------



## jononotbono

When is MSB being released?


----------



## ridgero

jononotbono said:


> When is MSB being released?



Today


----------



## jneebz

jononotbono said:


> When is MSB being released?


Apparently today.


----------



## Guy Rowland

HelixK said:


> My first impression still stands: too polished, thin and uncomfortably metallic. At 00:39 you can clearly hear all these issues, it almost sounds like a synth patch.



That seems like hyperbole to me at the point you reference. I hear something similar far more pronounced in the other demo actually (The White Whale) at around the 40s mark - I agree there's something strange somewhere on occasions and I'd love to get a handle on what it is. The best I've been able to come up with thus far is that it affects the trumpets in divisi mode, possibly too on-the-nose perfect intonation which is tripping our uncanny valley sensors.

But at other times - the majority of times actually - it sounds mighty impressive to me. Looking forward to more in depth walkthroughs to get a better handle on this sort of thing.


----------



## Eptesicus

Guy Rowland said:


> That seems like hyperbole to me at the point you reference. I hear something similar far more pronounced in the other demo actually (The White Whale) at around the 40s mark - I agree there's something strange somewhere on occasions and I'd love to get a handle on what it is. The best I've been able to come up with thus far is that it affects the trumpets in divisi mode, possibly too on-the-nose perfect intonation which is tripping our uncanny valley sensors.
> 
> But at other times - the majority of times actually - it sounds mighty impressive to me. Looking forward to more in depth walkthroughs to get a better handle on this sort of thing.



Indeed.

If im honest, i have always considered myself very critical if a library doesn't sound authentic, and that demo is probably one of the most authentic and brilliant sounding demos i have heard in a while.


----------



## benmrx

Once this is released into the wild, I'd LOVE to hear some A/B comparisons taking a 3 part line and seeing/hearing the differences between letting the built in Auto Divisi handle the individual instruments vs. splitting it out to 3 tracks and tweaking CC's as needed. I wonder if some the issues people are having has to do with the Auto-Divisi mode not giving enough difference to the individual instruments regarding dynamics, vibrato, etc.


----------



## Van

Firstly, great job to the people that made this library! I can’t fathom the amount of work it must take to pull this kind of thing off.

I find this thread fascinating as the comments generally reflect my first impressions before reading anyone else's. When I first heard the beginning of the demo, my hair was on end. But, as it went on, I did find the brass a shade thin with an overly compressed or squashed sound. I was really hoping this had something to do with a final mix or something? Looking forward to some early adopters clearing the air! 

However, I think I’m spoiled. I’ll never forget the first time I heard Sibelius play back something I’d notated on the old Acorn computer. Let’s not forget Garritan Personal Orchestra! Then I was blown away again when someone recommended EastWest (I didn’t know about sampling at the time) and couldn’t BELIEVE I could get a blasting horn section to sound like that from my laptop! I was hooked from there and now own a ton of Spitfire.

99.67598% of the public can’t tell the difference between a sampled library and a live session. Seems we’re ‘connoisseurs’ of not just realism but taste anymore.

It’s a great time to be a composer!


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

lucor said:


> What worries me the most at the moment is the dynamic range. For example in the introduction video at 7:42, you can see how the modwheel goes from above 64 all the way down to 1, and there doesn't seem to be any change whatsoever to the sound of the trumpets, not even in the volume?! I hope that's just a weird setting that can be changed.


You have many options for controlling the timbre. By default, you control timbre with CC1 AND velocities.
So changing CC1 values alone may not have as much of an impact if velocity values stay the same.
You can also control timbre with CC1 alone, in which case moving the mod wheel has an immediate affect on your timbre...


----------



## CT

You can see that the dynamics CC curve is topping out quite a bit in that piece, for beats at a time. That's the most obvious explanation for the "thinness" that people are hearing, and it sounds compressed because the dynamic motion is suddenly stopping repeatedly as that ceiling gets hit.

I've become way more conscious of this in my own work recently. I barely want to even approach 100, let alone 127. It's the same principle as in real performances. Everything sounds better when less strained, and it means the big moments can really be bigger.


----------



## OleJoergensen

Noeticus said:


> *Reaching The Summit - 'Modern Scoring Brass' Demo*
> 
> See...



Holy Molly! It sounds overwhelming! Also the strings. What string library is that?


----------



## jononotbono

Noeticus said:


> *Reaching The Summit - 'Modern Scoring Brass' Demo*
> 
> See...




So good!


----------



## jaketanner

The "reaching the summit" demo does not show off the brass library at all. It may as well have been any one of them. Yeah, it was brass...but what was so special? I'm sure my Century brass could have accomplished the same thing, or CSB or the new SF Studio Brass. Too much smoke and mirrors...give us an actual Brass heavy demo, with what this thing can actually do that others can't...because if it's just about the sound, it's not worth the asking price...for me anyway. Now if it's something that my Century brass can't do, then it's always a consideration.


----------



## DanielBeijbom

OleJoergensen said:


> Holy Molly! It sounds overwhelming! Also the strings. What string library is that?


Thanks!  The strings are cinematic studio strings.


----------



## Eptesicus

DanielBeijbom said:


> Thanks!  The strings are cinematic studio strings.



This is fantastic news, as i was seriously considering getting this and using it with CSS. It seems to blend/work together really nicely!

Wonderful piece by the way. Love it.


----------



## Noeticus

My preference would be that the first Audiobro Brass demo I heard used only brass so that the sound would not be confused with other non-brass instruments.

Obviously my sentiment would be far clearer if it was a demo for a solo brass instrument library.


----------



## Go To 11

So now the date of Tuesday 23rd release is gone. What’s going on? It’s neither released nor has a release date?


----------



## richard kurek

Go To 11 said:


> So now the date of Tuesday 23rd release is gone. What’s going on? It’s neither released nor has a release date?


not yet LA time zone site shows brass is out


----------



## Hanu_H

Go To 11 said:


> So now the date of Tuesday 23rd release is gone. What’s going on? It’s neither released nor has a release date?


It's out now. Check Audiobro's website.


----------



## jononotbono

Hanu_H said:


> It's out now. Check Audiobro's website.



Can’t see how to buy it. Just says it’s out and that’s it.


----------



## richard kurek

Hanu_H said:


> It's out now. Check Audiobro's website.


not in the Store


----------



## Hanu_H

jononotbono said:


> Can’t see how to buy it. Just says it’s out and that’s it.


Yeah I realized that as well. Maybe they are updating their page at the moment.


----------



## Gingerbread

It's in the store now. Regular (non-intro) price is $799.


----------



## ridgero

Looking forward to hearing some demos when I wake up tomorrow :D


----------



## richard kurek

richard kurek said:


> not in the Store


downloading now


----------



## jononotbono

No new videos or demos? Need that before buying.


----------



## sostenuto

In Cart now @ $599., but gonna hold for more supporting info.


----------



## richard kurek

sostenuto said:


> In Cart now @ $599., but gonna hold for more supporting info.


cant you take the suspense LOL


----------



## Eptesicus

Does it say anywhere how long the intro price is for?

Also, how much of an "intro price" is it, as Genesis is already on sale below the intro price isn it ( might be wrong)?


----------



## kevthurman

Welp, 20 hours to install. Good luck to everyone else.


----------



## Noeticus

I would love to see a video demonstrating the detune knob which I hope also means that there are aleatoric patches as well to be found. (I bought the Genesis Choir really only because it also had aleatoric patches.)


----------



## richard kurek

kevthurman said:


> Welp, 20 hours to install. Good luck to everyone else.


8 hrs here


----------



## artomatic

Another screaming demo posted today by Daniel Beijbom.


----------



## chocobitz825

dammit..this'll just have to be a time where i encourage the library hoarder in me...because I can justify saying that somewhere, in some project there is a fit for this library, even if its not my fave....but i'll be really regretting not getting it $200 off if later someone shows exactly how great it should be, but the intro price ends.


----------



## ZeeCount

Fullmix download just finished, and after playing around for a bit, the attack control has a large effect on how much bite there is to the patches, but also how much low end they have. Leaving it on smooth gives a very nice choral type of sound.


----------



## erica-grace

To those who have MSB installed - may we have some naked demos please?


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Curious about RAM usage - can someone confirm the RAM hit for a fully loaded MSB template? Hoping it's friendlier than OT Brass


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

No naked demo here but a few short ensemble lines that i wrote as a test.
Tail ends of examples are faded out...
Please keep in mind that this file is an mp3, so not the best quality possible by far...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/msb-medley-mp3.19555/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Noeticus

Awesome, Patrick! THANKS!


----------



## brenneisen

Patrick de Caumette said:


> No naked demo



so undress them for us, pls


----------



## ZeeCount

Here's a quick go at the Ulricht from Mahler 2, one patch for horns, one patch for trumpets.

EDIT: this is the full mix in it's default state (internal eq and reverb). No external processing.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-mp3.19556/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-full-mix-default-mp3.19563/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

brenneisen said:


> so undress them for us, pls


If you want me to undress them, it will cost you! 
Seriously though, i am a bit busy at the moment, but i feel you can hear some of the lines pretty clearly, + i am sure a number of buyers will post examples very soon


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ZeeCount said:


> Here's a quick go at the Ulricht from Mahler 2, one patch for horns, one patch for trumpets.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-mp3.19556/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I'm a simple man, I see Mahler's 2nd, I click.


----------



## kevthurman

richard kurek said:


> 8 hrs here


it eventually settled to about 10 hours once it realized the true speed of the internet. Can't wait to dig in tomorrow morning.


----------



## kevthurman

ZeeCount said:


> Here's a quick go at the Ulricht from Mahler 2, one patch for horns, one patch for trumpets.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-mp3.19556/][/AUDIOPLUS]


What did your mic mix look like here? Reverb? Any EQ?


----------



## ZeeCount

kevthurman said:


> What did your mic mix look like here? Reverb? Any EQ?



This is using the Full Mix (rest of the library only just finished downloading) in its default state (which means internal eq rolling off some low end and ir set to adagio preset). No external EQ or reverb.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ZeeCount said:


> This is using the Full Mix (rest of the library only just finished downloading) in its default state (which means internal eq rolling off some low end and ir set to adagio preset). No external EQ or reverb.



interesting that they roll off low end by default... sounds promising. 

I think the mixed might be too wet for me, but I supposed maybe they over-corrected the complaint that lass was bone dry


----------



## ZeeCount

ProfoundSilence said:


> interesting that they roll off low end by default... sounds promising.
> 
> I think the mixed might be too wet for me, but I supposed maybe they over-corrected the complaint that lass was bone dry



I could re-render it with all internal processing off if you want to hear the samples in their cleanest form.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ZeeCount said:


> I could re-render it with all internal processing off if you want to hear the samples in their cleanest form.


it's quite alright - I'm just interested in the mic's.

But I mean wetness like distance/ambience. Their mixed seems like it's trying to be orchestral hall out of the box. Which is okay - but I cant help but feel they made the mixed position much farther back than most would have picked, possibly as a response to criticism from LASS

your Mahler excerpt sounds like Mahler, which is not a film orchestra - which I must admit I was thinking when I heard the original demos.

wonder how it would handle the passage around  that's what I thought off when hearing the demos. around 11:11 of that recording would be a great one too. 

honestly that's what this libraries mixed position makes me think of... Mahler


----------



## ProfoundSilence

two more *ahem* suggestions if anyone is bold enough to mock those sections up

XD it's a tall order - but atleast this hasn't turned into "lets mockup john Williams"


edit 3 examples. edit 4. Sorry for spam. I figured this would be a good opportunity for those who could pony up to get this - if you need inspiration on what to mock up, These are all excellent sections .


----------



## kevthurman

ZeeCount said:


> I could re-render it with all internal processing off if you want to hear the samples in their cleanest form.


I'm downloading it as we speak. Gonna try out some mahler tomorrow morning anyways. Thanks for posting so early though.


----------



## kevthurman

ProfoundSilence said:


> it's quite alright - I'm just interested in the mic's.
> 
> But I mean wetness like distance/ambience. Their mixed seems like it's trying to be orchestral hall out of the box. Which is okay - but I cant help but feel they made the mixed position much farther back than most would have picked, possibly as a response to criticism from LASS
> 
> your Mahler excerpt sounds like Mahler, which is not a film orchestra - which I must admit I was thinking when I heard the original demos.
> 
> wonder how it would handle the passage around  that's what I thought off when hearing the demos. around 11:11 of that recording would be a great one too.
> 
> honestly that's what this libraries mixed position makes me think of... Mahler



On my list of things to test and add to my video review are a couple mahler excerpts. Some solos (mahler 3 trombone and mahler 5 trumpet) as well as the big chorale in the last movement of symphony 2 and one of the big low brass melodies in the first of symphony 3.


----------



## ZeeCount

Here's the same passage with the mics soloed and all internal processing turned off (so you are just hearing the samples in their purest form).

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-close-mics-mp3.19557/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-decca-mics-mp3.19558/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-surround-mics-mp3.19559/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## borisb2

Van said:


> .. 99.67598% of the public can’t tell the difference between a sampled library and a live session. Seems we’re ‘connoisseurs’ of not just realism but taste anymore.



oh, I would like to disagree on that one. I think 80% of the public can hear the difference and tell that something's off - and then maybe 99.67598% of them can't explain WHAT is off .. but they still hear something is not "right"


----------



## ProfoundSilence

what about decca center? AWESOME btw, for giving me mics to play with


----------



## chocobitz825

hearing these samples gives me a better idea of the library's strength and where it could be great to use in various styles.


----------



## ZeeCount

PhilipJohnston said:


> Curious about RAM usage - can someone confirm the RAM hit for a fully loaded MSB template? Hoping it's friendlier than OT Brass



All three mics loaded into the Trumpets patch uses 6.08 gb of ram, and for the Horns 1 patch uses 5.85 gb.


----------



## sluggo

Yanny....no wait, Laurel...definitely laurel.


----------



## Saxer

Thanks for the soloed mic parts!


----------



## ZeeCount

ProfoundSilence said:


> what about decca center? AWESOME btw, for giving me mics to play with



[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-decca-c-mics-mp3.19560/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-decca-lr-mics-mp3.19562/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Van

borisb2 said:


> oh, I would like to disagree on that one. I think 80% of the public can hear the difference and tell that something's off - and then maybe 99.67598% of them can't explain WHAT is off .. but they still hear something is not "right"


I’m pretty sure my statistic is 80% accurate.


----------



## Dave Connor

Regarding these mike position demos: it seems people were responding to the reverb solution in the online demos rather than the raw samples (in evaluating the _sound_.) That’s a big plus I would think and what everyone was hoping for. Or am I missing something?


----------



## CT

Are these mic demos left centered, or have you positioned them? I'm wondering how the tree and surrounds sound when you pan them (and the whole room with them).


----------



## mikeh-375

I'd love to hear some famous concert solos, things like rehearsal 135 in Petrouchka for solo trumpet or perhaps some horn parts from R.Strauss, or any concertos, to see how this library handles some of the best written parts in music - that would be a true measure of what's possible and what is not.


----------



## Go To 11

ZeeCount said:


> Here's the same passage with the mics soloed and all internal processing turned off (so you are just hearing the samples in their purest form).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-close-mics-mp3.19557/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-decca-mics-mp3.19558/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-surround-mics-mp3.19559/][/AUDIOPLUS]



This sounds amazing! Wow, thanks for sharing. I love how dry the space is, but still lovely and warm. I imagine this library is going to do everything I want. Turns out I'm just not a fan of their default reverbs. Cheers!


----------



## José Herring

ZeeCount said:


> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-decca-c-mics-mp3.19560/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-decca-lr-mics-mp3.19562/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Thanks for this. I mean it definitely doesn't have the sound of the best orchestral players hand chosen from the best orchestras in the world sound but it sounds pretty damn good.


----------



## JohannesR

Is it possible to route the individual mics separately out from Kontakt?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

JohannesR said:


> Is it possible to route the individual mics separately out from Kontakt?


it appears so, if you look at the top of the mixer page - says "Out: Default" I'd imagine that you could separate out them.


----------



## novaburst

borisb2 said:


> oh, I would like to disagree on that one. I think 80% of the public can hear the difference and tell that something's off - and then maybe 99.67598% of them can't explain WHAT is off .. but they still hear something is not "right"



I disagree especially when you have real musicians of real instruments confessions that they have been tricked by what they hear, 

Even I still get tricked, all you need is a good mix and a mockup created by someone who understands the limitations of the real instrument and how the real instrument works, that with a great mix can trick the ears, 

The give away normally is the user is doing things far beyond the instruments capability, the sound to some degree is know longer an issue because a bad mix on a live session can really make the whole thing sound bad, 

Many real players of instruments have testimonials that they prefer to use some samples as it's very close to the real deal and convincing, 

This whole subject is mixed and not one sided, yes developments like SM are a great contribution but what's more exciting is that sample users are becoming more skillful and spending more time to understand how to deliver a great mockups, and because of that they have stamped their mark in the game industry, the film industry, and have a strong strangle hold on the music market and is welcomed by real users of instruments and both and those who have never touched a real instrument.


----------



## jononotbono

Does anyone know how long the intro price is going on for?

Also, does anyone know if Audio Bro offers an Edu Discount on their products?


----------



## chocobitz825

novaburst said:


> I disagree especially when you have real musicians of real instruments confessions that they have been tricked by what they hear,
> 
> Even I still get tricked, all you need is a good mix and a mockup created by someone who understands the limitations of the real instrument and how the real instrument works, that with a great mix can trick the ears,
> 
> The give away normally is the user is doing things far beyond the instruments capability, the sound to some degree is know longer an issue because a bad mix on a live session can really make the whole thing sound bad,
> 
> Many real players of instruments have testimonials that they prefer to use some samples as it's very close to the real deal and convincing,
> 
> This whole subject is mixed and not one sided, yes developments like SM are a great contribution but what's more exciting is that sample users are becoming more skillful and spending more time to understand how to deliver a great mockups, and because of that they have stamped their mark in the game industry, the film industry, and have a strong strangle hold on the music market and is welcomed by real users of instruments and both and those who have never touched a real instrument.




The audience likely matters. Real players and music professionals look at the things an instrument can or cant do to give away why it sounds fake. The average person obviously doesn't know this. Professionals can find fault in the techniques. The Average person finds fault in the energy. It doesn't matter if its real or fake, but rather whether or not its able to achieve the same dynamic energy that they expect from the production. 

My take on the this library is that it does many things well, but still isn't the kind of library that can do everything, every style, and every arrangement type. That doesn't make it more or less, just different. It could definitely fool people if it's played to its strengths. Push it too far and it becomes obvious that the samples won't fit the context of certain performance types. In good hands (much better than my own, admittedly) it will be a beast.


----------



## remembrance

jononotbono said:


> Does anyone know how long the intro price is going on for?



I asked this in a mail and they said that it would likely last 30 days.


----------



## Go To 11

remembrance said:


> I asked this in a mail and they said that it would likely last 30 days.


That makes sense. I'd imagine until at least all their videos and demos are out, so we can make a proper decision.


----------



## Hanu_H

ZeeCount said:


> Here's the same passage with the mics soloed and all internal processing turned off (so you are just hearing the samples in their purest form).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-close-mics-mp3.19557/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-decca-mics-mp3.19558/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-surround-mics-mp3.19559/][/AUDIOPLUS]


To me, the decca tree sounds really good for this type of music. And I can't hear any of those annoying artifacts that most of the libraries with a bigger hall have. Just a little bit of reverb and EQ and it's ready to go. Really intimate and detailed sound. Close mics sound a bit thin but I would be using them only to bring more bite to the sound when needed. Dammit, I don't want to spend money to an another brass library...


----------



## Living Fossil

ZeeCount said:


> All three mics loaded into the Trumpets patch uses 6.08 gb of ram, and for the Horns 1 patch uses 5.85 gb.



How much is it if purged and used in some quite busy real life textures?
(i know it's difficult to average the amount of used samples; so it's more about having some hints how to calculate the used Ram)

p.s. thanks for posting the examples. I really like what i've heard so far from this library...


----------



## jonnybutter

Hanu_H said:


> Close mics sound a bit thin but I would be using them only to bring more bite to the sound when needed.



Yes but that's what real horns sound like close miked, I think. I know that I have a lot to learn about mic placement, but every time I've done it this is basically what it sounds like. I've heard that, to get a puffier sound, an old trick is to play into walls and mic that.

There is no way I can resist this library, especially at that price. I'm a LASS fan and I know that this is going to be useful. Intrigued also with the Intuition patches. I don't care that they're not strictly realistic. I love any new way to get player expression in real time onto a track.


----------



## sinkd

ZeeCount said:


> All three mics loaded into the Trumpets patch uses 6.08 gb of ram, and for the Horns 1 patch uses 5.85 gb.


Zoiks can you run them purged?


----------



## Hanu_H

jonnybutter said:


> Yes but that's what real horns sound like close miked, I think. I know that I have a lot to learn about mic placement, but every time I've done it this is basically what it sounds like. I've heard that, to get a puffier sound, an old trick is to play into walls and mic that.
> 
> There is no way I can resist this library, especially at that price. I'm a LASS fan and I know that this is going to be useful. Intrigued also with the Intuition patches. I don't care that they're not strictly realistic. I love any new way to get player expression in real time onto a track.


Yes, I agree. Always when I use close microphones for brass instruments in live situations they sound nasal and thin. Especially when the brass players bring their own clip on mics. If it's not a small and loud stage, I like to add a pair of condenser microphones to get the overall sound of the ensemble as well.


----------



## dcoscina

Hmmm. I'm not really digging the tone or shape of the trumpets. The Mahler example for me works against the library as I'm very familiar with that piece and I think it sounds artificial. Something in the tone and attack/release of the samples and room just does not sound right to my ears... 

Bummer. I was looking forward to this library.


----------



## dcoscina

muk said:


> The concept and functionality are simply amazing. For the way I work having recorded every player individually is a huge advantage over just a soloist and a2 samples. With the latter you are in all sorts of trouble if you want to score a choral with four independent horn parts, for example. For me Modern Scoring Brass has the concept got right.
> Unfortunately I am not too happy with the sound personally.
> 
> For example, compare these shorts articulation sounds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Modern Scoring Brass example does not sound good to my ears. It simply doesn't. True, you could use eq and reverb to mask it (and for that example you would definitely add some reverb in a real usage situation. It's actually great that Andrew didn't to show the sound of the library). But if you don't happen to like the source sound (which is the case for me here), there is only so much you can do. You can't transform it into something else entirely. It's interesting how different these two sound, given that both used a scoring studio as recording location. Cinematic Studio Brass sounds much more refined and full here out of the box.
> 
> Another thing I didn't like too much from the walkthrough video: in my opinion the timbre changes very little throughout the dynamic layers. The crossfade is very good, there is no phasing I could hear. But the tone of the instruments changes too little for my taste. Brass instruments are capable of a great variety of timbres. And I didn't hear that captured in the walkthrough. For example here:
> 
> 
> 
> cc1 moves through the entire dynamic range of the horns. I actually do like the sound of the horns here. But the timbre sounds quite unfiorm to me until it reaches fortissimo. Also from the video it seems that the library has only three dynamic layers (p, mf, ff), which is not much for brass, especially since the top layer has the distinct brassy timbre.
> 
> While I do like the concept very much, I am not digging the sound from what I have heard so far. Let's see if that changes when a more in-depth look at the various articulations of each instrument is available.




Totally agree on all points.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

So those of you how have the library, how does the sizzle slider, detune and different attacks affect the sound? I read somehow that somebody said that the different attacks may have a big impact on the sounds? Can anbody post a few fanfarish examples? (with sizzle, detune and different usage of attacks)..? Would be great..thanks.


----------



## TimCox

ZeeCount said:


> All three mics loaded into the Trumpets patch uses 6.08 gb of ram, and for the Horns 1 patch uses 5.85 gb.


Yow, my entire brass section for BB is only 5.29 gb although, I'm only using decca mics! Do you know what the load is when only using the tree?


----------



## Eptesicus

Come in people (and Audiobro). We need some more demos :D


----------



## jbuhler

Eptesicus said:


> Come in people (and Audiobro). We need some more demos :D


yes, agreed. But it’s a complex library and the way folks have been assessing the demos here I imagine those with the library are being cautious and are not keen to post less than stellar demos until they are sure any problem is with the library and not with their programming of it.


----------



## Guy Rowland

I'd be up for real basics, not full mockups - going through dynamic layers, building up ensembles, hearing the vibrato, a few humanising settings, legato scales, boring techy stuff. I'd lap it up, if it were done with a modicum of care.

There does still feel a real vacuum in material to base a solid decision on. Very grateful for those who have posted anything.


----------



## jononotbono

Yeah seriously. I need some more on this! Talk about desperate haha


----------



## Hanu_H

Guy Rowland said:


> I'd be up for real basics, not full mockups - going through dynamic layers, building up ensembles, hearing the vibrato, a few humanising settings, legato scales, boring techy stuff. I'd lap it up, if it were done with a modicum of care.
> 
> There does still feel a real vacuum in material to base a solid decision on. Very grateful for those who have posted anything.


We badly need a walkthrough by you. I enjoyed your Project Sam videos a lot.


----------



## brek

Hanu_H said:


> We badly need a walkthrough by you. I enjoyed your Project Sam videos a lot.


Seconded!


----------



## richard kurek

kevthurman said:


> I would be posting some stuff today but unfortunately the download decided pause for some reason in the middle of the night. 4 hours and 30 gigs to go and I should be able to put up some good demos for you.


same here woke up only to find the download stopped to connect


----------



## boxheadboy50

I'm having trouble getting that "Woooaaaah" reaction from this library... but I really want to.
I still get goosebumpy when I listen to the CSB demos.
I'm wondering if maybe I'm just biased, because I basically crapped my pants when I first heard CSB.
I think the demos are just not doing the library justice. I would love to hear some more nuanced performances out of this library and maybe get that star-struck feeling. 
With that crazy amount of content, I feel like I should be foaming at the mouth! Something about the sound just isn't doing it...


----------



## Guy Rowland

Ha - thanks Hanu and Brek... I'm 75% close to jumping on it, and if there's a lack of decent walkthroughs as and when I do I'll try to get something up.


----------



## Scamper

boxheadboy50 said:


> I'm having trouble getting that "Woooaaaah" reaction from this library... but I really want to.
> I still get goosebumpy when I listen to the CSB demos.


Same here. I really like the features like the attack control, auto divisi, flexible ensembles and the choice of instruments, but while the sound seems solid to me, it's nothing special so far.
Also, I haven't heard much of the low dynamics, but I got the impression that it doesn't go very low and soft in the dynamics as others like CSB or BB do quite well and I'm always hoping for that in new libraries. So, I'm looking forward to more demos that show more of the range and capabilities of MSB.


----------



## Eptesicus

It is odd that they have this mammoth , expensive library which has been hugely anticipated and yet they have only managed two fairly similar demos and one short walk through video.


----------



## awaey

this library look like doesn't have any surprise ,no one tell us what is going on ..from last night a lot of people waiting for short video how it sound and how it work , I am so confused and sad..


----------



## richard kurek

nawzadhaji said:


> this library look like doesn't have any surprise ,no one tell us what is going on ..from last night a lot of people waiting for short video how it sound and how it work , I am so confused and sad..


they showed surprises on product page


----------



## erica-grace

Hanu_H said:


> We badly need a walkthrough by you. I enjoyed your Project Sam videos a lot.



What we _really_ need is a 7-hour Daniel James walkthrough!


----------



## Hanu_H

erica-grace said:


> What we _really_ need is a 7-hour Daniel James walkthrough!


That is just way too long for me, I have never got through any of the Daniel James's marathons. But more the merrier!


----------



## Phillip996

Bought and as usual download managers suck. My installation got stuck, and now I can't resume my download without requesting a reinstall through mail. Absolutely ridiculous.

Update: Posted on their forum, and got a really quick reply. I can now retry the download.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Hanu_H said:


> That is just way too long for me, I have never got through any of the Daniel James's marathons. But more the merrier!


the HZS one was actually hilarious. I'm sure he was upset because he spent quite a few quid on it - but was still funny(and he can probably look back and laugh)


----------



## jneebz

Eptesicus said:


> It is odd that they have this mammoth , expensive library which has been hugely anticipated and yet they have only managed two fairly similar demos and one short walk through video.


Yeah for some reason, feels like they really rushed it....Spitfire does a great job (save the latest Ambient Guitar release) of providing all you need on release day. Oh well...I still love the tones I’ve heard and am hoping for new videos and demos soon.


----------



## Noeticus

So.... Yes, of course I had to buy it. Took about 70 minutes to download the full 160 GB on my fast Comcast setup.

When I add the Notre-Dame Cathedral IR from Audioease Altiverb to any solo instrument set to close-mic it sounds AWESOME! This is a must buy library if you love symphonic brass. 

Did I mention I was impressed.


----------



## Noeticus

This may be of interest...


----------



## Mucusman

I found that on YouTube after it was posted, but it sounds like a cut and paste job, replacing some other library with MSB. This is why I’m fine waiting a bit for demos that reflect the user taking some time to know their way around a new tool.


----------



## AllanH

That's not the best rendition of the Star Wars Fanfare I've heard.


----------



## Sovereign

AllanH said:


> That's not the best rendition of the Star Wars Fanfare I've heard.


Understatement.


----------



## markleake

AllanH said:


> That's not the best rendition of the Star Wars Fanfare I've heard.


That is the biggest understatement on VI Control I've read.


----------



## NoamL

For me, brass is all about *DYNAMISM!*

The *Strings* are the bread and butter of the orchestra,

the *Winds* are there to be colorful and create timbral variety (which is a major reason why the rise of synths has corresponded to the decline of woodwinds but that's another can of worms),

the *Percussion* is there to create accents and grooves,

and the *Brass* is there to *PUSH AIR* and make you go wow.

The brass can create more dynamic contrast than any string or woodwind instrument. That's their reason for existing. So brass libaries need a wide dynamic range above all, and then they also need seamless transitions across the entire range so that you don't notice the crossfading of dynamic layers or switching of articulations. Good musicianship in every sample doesn't hurt either.

The demos of Daniel's piece and the Mahler piece are good in their respective dynamic ranges but how does the library work moving across dynamics?

I wrote this little fanfare with CSB.



I think this is a good test piece because it goes across all the dynamics both in short and long notes. I'm getting 80-90% of what I want with CSB but hey, always willing to buy another brass library 

EDIT: Duh, forgot the MIDI! Here it is if anyone wants to give it a shot with MSB.


----------



## erica-grace

Nice Noam. Am I wrong, or are the beginning trumpets a mimic of the opening oboes and harp from "Flight To Neverland"?

Anyway, what I am hearing there, is not nearly enough dynamic range. There is some, but to my (relatively inexperienced) ears, not near enough. Maybe if there any real brass players on the forum (I think there are) they can speak about this?


----------



## HelixK

Are we really doing this again? Begging for walkthroughs and demos? I don't understand how a developer can overlook something as obvious as that. It's like they expect users to do all the work for them. Don't be cheap, AudioBro! Pay reviewers, send some NFRs, do whatever it takes but don't leave your customers hanging like that, it looks remarkably unprofessional.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

HelixK said:


> Are we really doing this again? Begging for walkthroughs and demos? I don't understand how a developer can overlook something as obvious as that. It's like they expect users to do all the work for them. Don't be cheap, AudioBro! Pay reviewers, send some NFRs, do whatever it takes but don't leave your customers hanging like that, it looks remarkably unprofessional.



Have you heard the demos on their site? As I kinda posted before, the first one is hard to follow with anything else.

Quality over quantity.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

As a brass player... these demos I'm hearing are not convincing me. The Star Wars and Brucker sound very far from realistic. I'll stick with what I have.

Too bad, wouldve loved to play with a bunch of BBb Cimbassi samples since every other sample library only has F Cimbassi, but I'm not forkin out that much money for it. Love me some Contrabass Trombone samples, and I even play one 

The dry room and slicing (editing) of the attacks give it a machine-like quality that seems to destroy all life when you get the full ensemble going. For lack of a better description, it sounds painfully "synthy". As soloists they may be a bit better, and serve well to augment other brass libraries, but only time will tell.


----------



## jneebz

kevthurman said:


> well here's a quick excerpt from Bruckner 8. I didn't do the trumpet parts because I've spent too much time on bruckner for one night and I'd like to try some other mockups. My first impressions are 70/30. I don't so far agree with those that said the sound was thin. It's very very flexible tone wise. I think it has a steep learning curve and has a lot of potential, but seems to be a bit limited in terms of dynamics especially on the shorts. I fiddled with a bunch of different ways to try and get the short notes in these dotted rhythms to have more bite and punchiness, but they seem to lack the same intensity of accent that is present on the sustained marcatos. The long notes here are all using the "accent" on the slider, as marcato seems more like a FFmf accent, although I think it could be quite useful. The library seems to have serious performance issues for me, not even having to do with ram or apparent CPU usage. This demo for example used only a few gigs when I purged and still it was incredibly stuttery. Simple DAW functions would cause short freezes frequently and the plugin seems to seize up any time I try to move a knob. Again this could be all on my setup and personal experience, but kind of frustrating nonetheless. Gonna do a mahler chorale next and probably put more effort into the minutiae of the sound itself. Stay tuned. Also, any short requests?
> 
> Edit: This is NOT dry. I took the stock reverb off and added some So. Cal orchestral hall from Spaces II. This is mostly close and decca mics, with the tuba having more close and the others havind more decca. The surround seems to have some weirdness to it that I don't personally like.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bruckner_8-mp3.19589/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Thank you for the demo...I certainly mean no offense to you whatsoever, but this sounds just terrible to my ears. Like phasey-synthy....dang, making me re-think this thing.


----------



## trumpoz

Karl Feuerstake said:


> As a brass player... these demos I'm hearing are not convincing me. The Star Wars and Brucker sound very far from realistic. I'll stick with what I have.
> 
> Too bad, wouldve loved to play with a bunch of BBb Cimbassi samples since every other sample library only has F Cimbassi, but I'm not forkin out that much money for it. Love me some Contrabass Trombone samples, and I even play one
> 
> The dry room and slicing (editing) of the attacks give it a machine-like quality that seems to destroy all life when you get the full ensemble going. For lack of a better description, it sounds painfully "synthy". As soloists they may be a bit better, and serve well to augment other brass libraries, but only time will tell.


Hey Karl - as a fellow brass player I'm not convinced either. There is a caveat - I'm a brass player and I dont think samples will ever be convincing to my ears (SM Trombone is awesome but still not the real thing)..... just as Jose Herring posted earlier, he doesn't like Clarinet libraries (apart from the Herring Clarinet lol).


----------



## NoamL

erica-grace said:


> Nice Noam. Am I wrong, or are the beginning trumpets a mimic of the opening oboes and harp from "Flight To Neverland"?



 



erica-grace said:


> Anyway, what I am hearing there, is not nearly enough dynamic range. There is some, but to my (relatively inexperienced) ears, not near enough. Maybe if there any real brass players on the forum (I think there are) they can speak about this?



Yes, the range is _mp_-_fff_. Although the _fff_ is only available on the marcato legato (instead of regular legato) but you can switch to it fairly seamlessly during a crescendo as shown here.

I would love to have true, ultra mellow _p_ and _pp_ brass samples but it seems like you need to buy Albion 5 or Metropolis Ark 2 to get em.

I would rather be missing the bottom end than the top though. I can tell you from comparing CSB to other libraries like Berlin Brass, Hollywood Brass etc., this is the only one that has true _fff_. (although the horns in Hollywood Brass are pretty great) It might not sound totally overwhelming at the ending crescendo there, but that's because in a real orchestration it would be buttressed by high winds, string tremolos, and above all the timpani and cymbal.


----------



## HelixK

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Have you heard the demos on their site? As I kinda posted before, the first one is hard to follow with anything else.
> 
> Quality over quantity.



Sorry, I don't share your excitement, the official demos didn't make a good impression on me. I talk about this particular track here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...-scoring-brass-msb.76944/page-32#post-4378321

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for more than two fully dressed demo tracks to judge a $600 brass library. I need a lot more than that to make an informed decision and open my wallet.

I usually trust my gut feeling and was hoping the user demos would redeem MSB. Unfortunately, what I heard so far -- thanks for sharing -- only confirmed my initial thoughts about it. At least I'm saving $600 for the JXL library or the upcoming ProjectSAM library.


----------



## HelixK

kevthurman said:


> Well. I know I could make something better than this but honestly for the amount of time spent I could have done the same or better with other, _way _cheaper libraries. This time I tried out the spatialization thing to see if maybe the library was designed to work better that way and I think it might have turned out worse. The user experience so far has been incredibly frustrating. The library stutters so much that i feel like I spent half the time actually doing stuff and half the time waiting for the 1 - 3 second freezes that happened almost every time I touched one of the knobs. To my ears it almost sounds like the trumpets were recorded in a different room, which is weird, and everything feels simultaneously too dry to have any life but too processed to be malleable. I kind of wish I had my money back so I could buy CSB instead and have finished a whole film score in the time it took to learn the basics of MSB.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mahler_2-mp3.19590/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Thanks for sharing, this is bad on a whole new level... did you accidentally flip some switch that made the trumpets sound like a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle horn?

I would love to read the manual, is there one included?


----------



## Guy Rowland

Uhhh.... I don’t know what’s going on here. I do know for a fact that there is a very detailed manual included in the download.

I don’t presume to know or say what some of the current apparent problems are, but I’m near-certain that this isn’t how MSB is supposed to sound. I also know that Audiobro have terrific support, and they are very responsive on their forum, if there are issues that would be the first place I’d go.

I guess this whole thing does show the perils of launching without enough demos and supporting material. First impressions are hard to break. I guess finishing and tweaking the instrument itself ate up all their time, because they did originally state that they would be drip feeding demos before release, and that clearly went out the window. It feels at this point that they need to do damage limitation, which is never an enviable place to be.

It is all quite surprising. It has taken them 10 years to get this to market, I can’t imagine how long to record, edit and script. Their QC is known as being about the best in the business, and I presume this is what has eaten into their time. So it’s all, um, surprising.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

What I notice is that MSB at least how I perceive it in the demos and walkthrough sound a way too clean (for my taste) regarding intonation and tuning which imo results in sounding kind of midi-ish / synthetic.

Apart from that I find the trumpets lacking in bite and crisp on the short articulations, which is something I hoped that they get that better for that kind of rousing fanfarish writing. I have a liking for their horns and tuba though. Also as this is something what confuses me still that they did write on their page that the instruments going from true dynamics ppp up to fff I simply I don´t hear that. I know it is not all about that blattey sound all but also the very quite dynamics and in their walkthrough when the modwheel is at 0 percent it definitely is at best a piano dynamic level.

Sometimes I think that this long promising list what they created on their page creates HUGE expectations for the crowd and when they don´t deliver everything in that regards it easily dissapoints the people. It´s dangerous to write things like this for instance:

_*"We know that “next generation” are words that get thrown around very liberally by sample library developers, but we think in this case you’ll agree."
*_
Such things create super high expactations and while I think that this is great that they set very high goals for themselves, the risk to fail is high..

Is that library a next-gen library? Hm...so far, what I read from the peoples impression its not even on par with libraries which are already been out. Now don´t get it too salty: I actually like some stuff in their brass quite a lot, and some stuff just definitely not where I have to agree with the peoples critic here.

It reminds me a bit on the synchron strings with their re-invented legato and next gen library. They had big plans but it wasn´t convincing in the end. I hope that the guys from Audiobro will take some of the critic in consideration, or..which I have 50 percent hope for that they show more of the library which helps iron out the negative impressions which people have so far.


----------



## Eptesicus

hmmm, the user demos so far have not been good.

Starting to sway back more towards CSB now...


----------



## Eptesicus

Noeticus said:


> This may be of interest...




What on earth is this? Sounds like it was played with the Sibelius stock instruments, not a $600 2019 cutting edge brass library.


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> What on earth is this? Sounds like it was played with the Sibelius stock instruments, not a $600 2019 cutting edge brass library.



Maybe they had all the instances loaded but routed to the wrong library? That is the only hope here ...


----------



## jamwerks

Beware of members who speak like amateurs, and post bad sounding demos!!


----------



## Rasmus Hartvig

I like music said:


> Maybe they had all the instances loaded but routed to the wrong library? That is the only hope here ...



»Help me, MIDI routed to the wrong library. You're my only hope!«


----------



## Henu

I just got a sudden urge to play Leisure Suit Larry 6, Day of the Tentacle and Warcraft II.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Henu said:


> I just got a sudden urge to play Leisure Suit Larry 6, Day of the Tentacle and Warcraft II.



Much love to these games :D I still have WC II Tides of Darkness expansion here. Don´t forget SOTMI and Indiana Jones 4 :D


----------



## Henu

Don't get me started derailing this with praises, WC II was THE reason for me to want to compose game music in the first place!  I freaking LOVE it and listen to it regularly to this date, haha! Not even mentioning those others...huh. Everything from either Blizzard or LucasArts is 100% gold for me.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

nawzadhaji said:


> *this harmonica* *sound or Brass ? my harmonica sound better than this..*



Well thats a bit of an exxegeration, it def. sounds like a brass library..


----------



## Go To 11

Can anyone who owns the library confirm if the samples are really ppp to fff?


----------



## richard kurek

finally downloaded , finding the library a breath of fresh air , as i mentioned before , faults in every library , with my morning coffee , substituting the horns in a piece i'm working on , i'm hearing its easier to fit in a mix , the tones have an up front sound, much work to do but enjoying this library


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

NoamL said:


> For me, brass is all about *DYNAMISM!*
> 
> The *Strings* are the bread and butter of the orchestra,
> 
> the *Winds* are there to be colorful and create timbral variety (which is a major reason why the rise of synths has corresponded to the decline of woodwinds but that's another can of worms),
> 
> the *Percussion* is there to create accents and grooves,
> 
> and the *Brass* is there to *PUSH AIR* and make you go wow.
> 
> The brass can create more dynamic contrast than any string or woodwind instrument. That's their reason for existing. So brass libaries need a wide dynamic range above all, and then they also need seamless transitions across the entire range so that you don't notice the crossfading of dynamic layers or switching of articulations. Good musicianship in every sample doesn't hurt either.
> 
> The demos of Daniel's piece and the Mahler piece are good in their respective dynamic ranges but how does the library work moving across dynamics?
> 
> I wrote this little fanfare with CSB.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is a good test piece because it goes across all the dynamics both in short and long notes. I'm getting 80-90% of what I want with CSB but hey, always willing to buy another brass library
> 
> EDIT: Duh, forgot the MIDI! Here it is if anyone wants to give it a shot with MSB.




For the sake of comparison, I've made a mockup of your short piece with... "another true divisi brass library".  *This is not a MSB Mockup !*

Here it is for those interested.



Edit : This could obviously sound better with some EQ, but thought it would be better to keep the demo totally raw as an exemple.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

whitewasteland said:


> For the sake of comparison, I've made a mockup of your short piece with... "another true divisi brass library".  *This is not a MSB Mockup !*
> 
> Here it is for those interested.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit : This could obviously sound better with some EQ, but thought it would be better to keep the demo totally raw as an exemple.




Sounds really nice, what did you use here?


----------



## Raphioli

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Sounds really nice, what did you use here?



Its probably Berlin Brass.
This makes me wish they'd sample the upper dynamics for that library.(at least for the sustains/legatos)

Edited: The intro rhythm reminds me of Hook, by John Williams. Love that score.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Yes, that's Berlin.
I also wish the sustains had an additional dynamic layer. Good thing with this library is it is so extensively sampled there are several ways to do the same thing. So there is almost always a marcato or fortepiano sample to save your *ss


----------



## jononotbono

I know this could be deemed as slightly demanding but can someone mockup that same Star Wars example with any of these...

CSB
SSB
BB
HOB

And if you do, then if we ever meet in person, I shall buy you some beers.


----------



## FriFlo

jononotbono said:


> I know this could be deemed as slightly demanding but can someone mockup that same Star Wars example with any of these...
> 
> CSB
> SSB
> BB
> HOB
> 
> And if you do, then if we ever meet in person, I shall buy you some beers.


You could!


----------



## JF

kevthurman said:


> Well. I know I could make something better than this but honestly for the amount of time spent I could have done the same or better with other, _way _cheaper libraries. ... I kind of wish I had my money back so I could buy CSB instead and have finished a whole film score in the time it took to learn the basics of MSB.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mahler_2-mp3.19590/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Here's the same passage using CSB & CSS (using notation program):




ZeeCount said:


> Here's a quick go at the Ulricht from Mahler 2, one patch for horns, one patch for trumpets.
> 
> EDIT: this is the full mix in it's default state (internal eq and reverb). No external processing.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ulricht-full-mix-default-mp3.19563/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Again, same passage with CSB (using notation program).


----------



## Pablocrespo

All this Mahler makes me happy I am going to listen Mahler´s 3rd tonight, in an almost perfect theater!!

I think we should wait for detailed walkthroughs before judgement, I would love to dismiss this library because I can´t afford it now (exchange rate is killing me), but LASS has been a workhorse for me for 7 years, so I have faith in Audiobro.


----------



## erica-grace

NoamL said:


> Yes, the range is _mp_-_fff_.



Well, what I was saying is it doesn't sound it. Not at all. Your example (maybe through no fault of your own) has a VERY limited dynamic range.


----------



## stevenson-again

Can someone help answer this rather than me trawling through the whole thread:

Is this a proprietary sample player? I need to be able to set up articulations via program change. I think I have the same issue with the new Spitfire player - I'll take a look at the end of the current project. Basically, if I can't switch via program change then I'm probably going to have to pass. The introductory video does not make it clear. Is it possible to download the manual without purchase? It might be a way to check to see if it can be set up to fit into my template.


----------



## erica-grace

Go To 11 said:


> Can anyone who owns the library confirm if the samples are really ppp to fff?



The site says:

_Please keep in mind that the charts represent dynamics ranging from ppp through fff._

I don't know if that's supposed to mean the charts go from ppp through fff, or if the librray goes from ppp through fff.

I would think it would be the charts - ppp through fff is eight dynamic layers. While it's possible that he library is that much, I doubt it. I could be wrong though.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> I know this could be deemed as slightly demanding but can someone mockup that same Star Wars example with any of these...
> 
> CSB
> SSB
> BB
> HOB
> 
> And if you do, then if we ever meet in person, I shall buy you some beers.



Not trying to be rude here, but someone stumbling through john Williams poorly is what I'm trying to avoid. People have made convincing mockups with random stuff - and people have also painfully misused libraries. My guess is that this library takes a lot of external spatial placement in a very un-typical way. If you rely on in-engine I can't imagine the appropriate results will be received. Best case scenario you will have to run all the audio out centered, including the internal instruments - then manually place them. Else I don't trust whatever black magic they are going to try to do within kontakt - it'll probably just suck the life out, flatten it - and then create weird phasey issues.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

stevenson-again said:


> Can someone help answer this rather than me trawling through the whole thread:
> 
> Is this a proprietary sample player? I need to be able to set up articulations via program change. I think I have the same issue with the new Spitfire player - I'll take a look at the end of the current project. Basically, if I can't switch via program change then I'm probably going to have to pass. The introductory video does not make it clear. Is it possible to download the manual without purchase? It might be a way to check to see if it can be set up to fit into my template.


It's a kontakt instrument. There are ways to control libraries with program changes via ksp script IIRC(cant remember who made one) That said, that's a bazaar request - as I'm not able to think of anything modern that works off of program changes(outside of maybe some midi hardware?)


----------



## stevenson-again

ProfoundSilence said:


> It's a kontakt instrument. There are ways to control libraries with program changes via ksp script IIRC(cant remember who made one) That said, that's a bazaar request - as I'm not able to think of anything modern that works off of program changes(outside of maybe some midi hardware?)



All my templates are set up for program changes - I switch around using instrument banks in Kontakt and it was Andrew K that showed me that maaany years ago. I have all my artics set up as midi multi's in logic and all my articulations loaded into standalone VEpro on a slave PC. Not only that I can mix and match and blend patches even between libraries and everything is on instant recall.

Main reason I gotta stay like that is backward compatibility, but it's by far the fastest most efficient way to do it. I also have pads on my controllers set to my most commonly used program changes. Logic artic IDs still isn't quite there in terms of usability.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

stevenson-again said:


> All my templates are set up for program changes - I switch around using instrument banks in Kontakt and it was Andrew K that showed me that maaany years ago. I have all my artics set up as midi multi's in logic and all my articulations loaded into standalone VEpro on a slave PC. Not only that I can mix and match and blend patches even between libraries and everything is on instant recall.
> 
> Main reason I gotta stay like that is backward compatibility, but it's by far the fastest most efficient way to do it. I also have pads on my controllers set to my most commonly used program changes. Logic artic IDs still isn't quite there in terms of usability.



I mean, i'd imagine you could find a ksp script to help out with that.


----------



## stevenson-again

ProfoundSilence said:


> I mean, i'd imagine you could find a ksp script to help out with that.



Nah - it's at the Logic end it needs to be program changes. The artic ID's are a nice idea in principle (and basically what I am doing with program changes) but they are too limited in how you can use them and visual feedback. There might be a way to make the work or work better....but you know....requires endless hours fiddling and experimenting I don't have...


----------



## AllanH

As a former trumpet player, I was/am really hoping that MSB delivers on its promise. I thought I heard very good short articulations in the the demos, and I like the mix of C and Bb trumpets. 
I feel that most Bb trumpets sound strained above their Bb, so getting some non-strained clarity up to concert C would be very nice. 

The "Starwars fanfare demo" left me speechless; I would have to dig out my Sampletank to replicate that. I really hope AudioBro gets moving on some professional demos, or these initial impressions will be difficult to overcome.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AllanH said:


> As a former trumpet player, I was/am really hoping that MSB delivers on its promise. I thought I heard very good short articulations in the the demos, and I like the mix of C and Bb trumpets.
> I feel that most Bb trumpets sound strained above their Bb, so getting some non-strained clarity up to concert C would be very nice.
> 
> The "Starwars fanfare demo" left me speechless; I would have to dig out my Sampletank to replicate that. I really hope AudioBro gets moving on some professional demos, or these initial impressions will be difficult to overcome.


Sucks too, because the person probably put a lot of work into that, so on one hand I feel bad - but on another - this library is proving to be an issue of having to know how to work with it, rather than against it. The source material doesn't sound bad - just sounds a little dry, and it being center recorded + mangled into a stereo image is probably going to kill it. It can probably be fixed with plugins outside of kontakt - but I'd hold my breath for "truly dry demos" because this is going to end up being looked at more like a "less dry" Samplemodeling.


----------



## artinro

Pretty baffling release. I’m holding off making a final judgement, but so far I’ve not heard anything that’s even on par with what other libraries can achieve (at either extreme of the dynamic range).


----------



## NoamL

whitewasteland said:


> For the sake of comparison, I've made a mockup of your short piece with... "another true divisi brass library".  *This is not a MSB Mockup !*
> 
> Here it is for those interested.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit : This could obviously sound better with some EQ, but thought it would be better to keep the demo totally raw as an exemple.




The lack of higher dynamics is disappointing, but I really like the trumpets here! They have lots of character.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

So I posted this demo when I first got my hands on CSB, for which I was most impressed by that particular libraries lower, chorale-fitting dynamics. Picked up MSB immediately for the auto-divisi and extra brass that neither CSB nor HWB had provided. MSB is certainly a different beast, but the reputation that LASS set forward and that even Genesis still carried is that these libraries need to be tweaked to fit what you're using them for. I replaced the CSB instruments with their MSB counterparts in the second demo below.





CSB only has C trumpets available, whereas MSB offers both C and Bb (1st - C, 2nd - Bb, 3rd - Bb, 4th - C). With the CSB demo, I transposed the second solo trumpet down and bumped the MIDI up by a whole step to emulate a Bb trumpet, which was necessary to get a strong timbral difference between the two. For MSB, I used the first and third trumpets, so both were Bb. This was for the richer tone in the lower range. I preferred the strong legato transitions of CSB, so I increased the volume of transitions in MSB by about 1db each, and lowered the legato speed of each instrument to the lowest setting. I used the Scoring/Film Stage depth control preset on each and made a virtual semi-circle to create a seating arrangement. I also used the mix mics on each at their default, and then brought in some extra close mic to add bite. Sizzle is also set to it's highest setting (this is a very subtle effect). Vibrato is controllable in this library, something CSB does not offer control of. This is set by default to CC2, which actually makes it very easy to copy parts between CSS and MSB. Finally, I set attack control to Velocity (trying to get closer to a CSB workflow since I was copying MIDI data), and raised the velocity response on the Horn a bit to have it respond quicker to the MIDI data. All CC1 data was bumped up from where it was set for CSB, as this library is generally softer than CSB.

Other than the stage presets, all other internal processing was turned off. Similar to the CSB example, the only external processing was a little Spaces II War Memorial and then the Ozone Maximizer to match the volume of the examples.

Edit: I know user demos are in high demand, so - while I work full time - let me know if there are features you'd like to learn more about and I can post accompanying examples when I have a moment.


----------



## erica-grace

Well, those are pretty close. I think CSB is better in spots, specifically the beginning, and maybe a bit overall - but only a by a little bit.


----------



## lucor

jononotbono said:


> I know this could be deemed as slightly demanding but can someone mockup that same Star Wars example with any of these...
> 
> CSB
> SSB
> BB
> HOB
> 
> And if you do, then if we ever meet in person, I shall buy you some beers.





Here's a rather quick pass with CSB. Could definitely use a lot more massaging, but I gotta get back to work now. 
Still on the fence with MSB, CSB is just so good and flexible that I'm not sure I really need it.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Small comment: this library is deep and offers a lot of flexibility for line shaping.
It has a substantial learning curve in order to get the most out of it.
To think that you can fire it up for the first time and write a great demo, without learning all of its features first is not realistic.
It took me days to get comfortable with the possibilities.
At times, i questioned the ability of a certain articulation, to find out after talking to Audio Bro that i was doing it wrong.

Long and short notes are shaped by a number of controls
I also recommend using your own reverbs, even though there are certainly some good IR in there (look further down the list for scoring stages and brass halls: those are not apparent, you need to scroll down the list)

MSB may not give you instant gratification out of the box the way other libraries do, but once you spend time with it, you can have greater control and a more flexible tool to shape your music the way you hear it.

At least, that's my personal experience beta testing it...


----------



## Guy Rowland

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo...



...and thank you for doing so, Duncan, this is MUCH more like it. I liked both, the overall difference is that to my ears MSB edges it for realism. It's a bit more precise, and while CSB has a beautifully flattering tone MSB more than holds its own, with perhaps a little less aural hype, as it were, a little less artificially big.

I think the settings you used sound spot on, and this is the first vibrato I've noticed - sounds much better than I was expecting in context, given its an effect.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

erica-grace said:


> Well, those are pretty close. I think CSB is better in spots, specifically the beginning, and maybe a bit overall - but only a by a little bit.



I agree, though of course the benefit with CSB here is also that this was originally played in _with_ CSB, so the nuances of reacting while you're writing the line is more intuitive there. What I particularly like about CSB, oddly enough, is what I also particularly like about MSB: CSB has a bit more room and fuzz in it, which make soft chorales like this sound more realistic. MSB, on the other hand, is _extremely_ clean. This makes it extremely flexible, but a little harder to make convincing sometimes when exposed.



Guy Rowland said:


> ...and thank you for doing so, Duncan, this is MUCH more like it. I liked both, the overall difference is that to my ears MSB edges it for realism. It's a bit more precise, and while CSB has a beautifully flattering tone MSB more than holds its own, with perhaps a little less aural hype, as it were, a little less artificially big.
> 
> I think the settings you used sound spot on, and this is the first vibrato I've noticed - sounds much better than I was expecting in context, given its an effect.



Thank you! I truly find MSB very playable, but it requires more CC writing to control each parameter of the sound, whereas CSB is straight-out-of-the-box gorgeous. Just my style, but I find the slider control for attack less intuitive than velocity, and the dynamics CC velocity-scaled less controllable than simple CC. But to each their own. There are a number of controls for tuning, so I am hoping there's flexibility to reduce the precision as well, create a bit more strain.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Great demo, Duncan! Sounds very nice.


----------



## sinkd

Duncan Krummel said:


> I transposed the second solo trumpet down and bumped the MIDI up by a whole step to emulate a Bb trumpet, which was necessary to get a strong timbral difference between the two.


You, um... what? I don't think this is how MSB is intended to be used. I also am wary of demos performed/programmed with other libraries being run through a new one--- These instruments need to be performed and it takes time to learn to play a new library.

Downloading MSB now, myself.


----------



## Guy Rowland

sinkd said:


> You, um... what? I don't think this is how MSB is intended to be used. I also am wary of demos performed/programmed with other libraries being run through a new one--- These instruments need to be performed and it takes time to learn to play a new library.



Nevertheless, it is by far the best user demo for MSB out there that I've come across, and IMO its the results that count. Think its an excellent adaptation, actually all the more impressive for being written for a different library.


----------



## NoamL

lucor said:


> Here's a rather quick pass with CSB. Could definitely use a lot more massaging, but I gotta get back to work now.
> Still on the fence with MSB, CSB is just so good and flexible that I'm not sure I really need it.






The trumpet could even be down a little further in dynamics, it sounds like it's right at 127 whereas in the real life recording it's more in balance with the horns/trombones. But wow, this is REALLY close to the vibe of the real life recording to my ears. Aggressive and adventurous!


----------



## TimCox

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo when I first got my hands on CSB


Oh well see just when I'm disappointed and wanting to pass on MSB you go and do this!


----------



## Mucusman

sinkd said:


> You, um... what? I don't think this is how MSB is intended to be used.



Actually, it appears that he was talking about what he did with _Cinematic Studio Brass_ in this instance.


----------



## NoamL

@Duncan Krummel really nice on both demos. With MSB I hear the same thing as with Berlin Brass - the true divisi really does make a difference because you can feel that it's several unique instruments and musicians. Unfortunately I don't really use BB much anymore because it's just not consistent enough in dynamics & programming. When the brass are heard in the orchestral context, it matters more that they have an overall great tone & sense of musicality and I think CSB is really top of its class for that. But for any kind of exposed brass writing like this chorale, I think I prefer MSB to the CSB demo.


----------



## axb312

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo when I first got my hands on CSB, for which I was most impressed by that particular libraries lower, chorale-fitting dynamics. Picked up MSB immediately for the auto-divisi and extra brass that neither CSB nor HWB had provided. MSB is certainly a different beast, but the reputation that LASS set forward and that even Genesis still carried is that these libraries need to be tweaked to fit what you're using them for. I replaced the CSB instruments with their MSB counterparts in the second demo below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSB only has C trumpets available, whereas MSB offers both C and Bb (1st - C, 2nd - Bb, 3rd - Bb, 4th - C). With the CSB demo, I transposed the second solo trumpet down and bumped the MIDI up by a whole step to emulate a Bb trumpet, which was necessary to get a strong timbral difference between the two. For MSB, I used the first and third trumpets, so both were Bb. This was for the richer tone in the lower range. I preferred the strong legato transitions of CSB, so I increased the volume of transitions in MSB by about 1db each, and lowered the legato speed of each instrument to the lowest setting. I used the Scoring/Film Stage depth control preset on each and made a virtual semi-circle to create a seating arrangement. I also used the mix mics on each at their default, and then brought in some extra close mic to add bite. Sizzle is also set to it's highest setting (this is a very subtle effect). Vibrato is controllable in this library, something CSB does not offer control of. This is set by default to CC2, which actually makes it very easy to copy parts between CSS and MSB. Finally, I set attack control to Velocity (trying to get closer to a CSB workflow since I was copying MIDI data), and raised the velocity response on the Horn a bit to have it respond quicker to the MIDI data. All CC1 data was bumped up from where it was set for CSB, as this library is generally softer than CSB.
> 
> Other than the stage presets, all other internal processing was turned off. Similar to the CSB example, the only external processing was a little Spaces II War Memorial and then the Ozone Maximizer to match the volume of the examples.
> 
> Edit: I now user demos are in high demand, so - while I work full time - let me know if there are features you'd like to learn more about and I can post accompanying examples when I have a moment.




Maybe verb or EQ but the mix sounds a little muddy on MSB to me....


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo when I first got my hands on CSB, for which I was most impressed by that particular libraries lower, chorale-fitting dynamics. Picked up MSB immediately for the auto-divisi and extra brass that neither CSB nor HWB had provided. MSB is certainly a different beast, but the reputation that LASS set forward and that even Genesis still carried is that these libraries need to be tweaked to fit what you're using them for. I replaced the CSB instruments with their MSB counterparts in the second demo below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSB only has C trumpets available, whereas MSB offers both C and Bb (1st - C, 2nd - Bb, 3rd - Bb, 4th - C). With the CSB demo, I transposed the second solo trumpet down and bumped the MIDI up by a whole step to emulate a Bb trumpet, which was necessary to get a strong timbral difference between the two. For MSB, I used the first and third trumpets, so both were Bb. This was for the richer tone in the lower range. I preferred the strong legato transitions of CSB, so I increased the volume of transitions in MSB by about 1db each, and lowered the legato speed of each instrument to the lowest setting. I used the Scoring/Film Stage depth control preset on each and made a virtual semi-circle to create a seating arrangement. I also used the mix mics on each at their default, and then brought in some extra close mic to add bite. Sizzle is also set to it's highest setting (this is a very subtle effect). Vibrato is controllable in this library, something CSB does not offer control of. This is set by default to CC2, which actually makes it very easy to copy parts between CSS and MSB. Finally, I set attack control to Velocity (trying to get closer to a CSB workflow since I was copying MIDI data), and raised the velocity response on the Horn a bit to have it respond quicker to the MIDI data. All CC1 data was bumped up from where it was set for CSB, as this library is generally softer than CSB.
> 
> Other than the stage presets, all other internal processing was turned off. Similar to the CSB example, the only external processing was a little Spaces II War Memorial and then the Ozone Maximizer to match the volume of the examples.
> 
> Edit: I now user demos are in high demand, so - while I work full time - let me know if there are features you'd like to learn more about and I can post accompanying examples when I have a moment.




Hej man, 

great job and very well done. First demo I really dig I have to say. I like both versions. Tbh in that example I even prefer MSB over CSB.


----------



## Phillip996

axb312 said:


> Maybe verb or EQ but the mix sounds a little muddy on MSB to me....



Dry libraries tend to need more mixing to make them sound good. Also, Cinematic studio products is known for its out of the box ready sound.


----------



## germancomponist

For me, I handle orchestra sample libraries like I handle real musicians. In short: I have to tickle the skills out of real musicians. The same I have to do with sample libraries.

My ears told me that MSB is also a great brass library like other good brass libraries.
Congrats to the makers of this lib!


----------



## kevthurman

Here's a couple renditions of the euphonium solo from Holst's second suite in F. It's better than the others I've posted so far as I think this library has a lot of potential for controlling the very minute details of short notes as is asked of the brass in this excerpt. There's one which is completely dry and one which has some spaces II on it.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2-mp3.19594/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2_dry-mp3.19595/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## richard kurek

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hej man,
> 
> great job and very well done. First demo I really dig I have to say. I like both versions. Tbh in that example I even prefer MSB over CSB.


i agree , i hear more emotion


----------



## jbuhler

kevthurman said:


> Here's a couple renditions of the euphonium solo from Holst's second suite in F. It's better than the others I've posted so far as I think this library has a lot of potential for controlling the very minute details of short notes as is asked of the brass in this excerpt. There's one which is completely dry and one which has some spaces II on it.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2-mp3.19594/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2_dry-mp3.19595/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Have you managed to solve the stuttering problem you mentioned upthread?


----------



## Noeticus

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Small comment: this library is deep and offers a lot of flexibility for line shaping.
> It has a substantial learning curve in order to get the most out of it.
> To think that you can fire it up for the first time and write a great demo, without learning all of its features first is not realistic.
> It took me days to get comfortable with the possibilities.
> At times, i questioned the ability of a certain articulation, to find out after talking to Audio Bro that i was doing it wrong.
> 
> Long and short notes are shaped by a number of controls
> I also recommend using your own reverbs, even though there are certainly some good IR in there (look further down the list for scoring stages and brass halls: those are not apparent, you need to scroll down the list)
> 
> MSB may not give you instant gratification out of the box the way other libraries do, but once you spend time with it, you can have greater control and a more flexible tool to shape your music the way you hear it.
> 
> At least, that's my personal experience beta testing it...




Hello Patrick,

Can you say what was not to your liking and what their advice was?


----------



## Lassi Tani

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo when I first got my hands on CSB, for which I was most impressed by that particular libraries lower, chorale-fitting dynamics. Picked up MSB immediately for the auto-divisi and extra brass that neither CSB nor HWB had provided. MSB is certainly a different beast, but the reputation that LASS set forward and that even Genesis still carried is that these libraries need to be tweaked to fit what you're using them for. I replaced the CSB instruments with their MSB counterparts in the second demo below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSB only has C trumpets available, whereas MSB offers both C and Bb (1st - C, 2nd - Bb, 3rd - Bb, 4th - C). With the CSB demo, I transposed the second solo trumpet down and bumped the MIDI up by a whole step to emulate a Bb trumpet, which was necessary to get a strong timbral difference between the two. For MSB, I used the first and third trumpets, so both were Bb. This was for the richer tone in the lower range. I preferred the strong legato transitions of CSB, so I increased the volume of transitions in MSB by about 1db each, and lowered the legato speed of each instrument to the lowest setting. I used the Scoring/Film Stage depth control preset on each and made a virtual semi-circle to create a seating arrangement. I also used the mix mics on each at their default, and then brought in some extra close mic to add bite. Sizzle is also set to it's highest setting (this is a very subtle effect). Vibrato is controllable in this library, something CSB does not offer control of. This is set by default to CC2, which actually makes it very easy to copy parts between CSS and MSB. Finally, I set attack control to Velocity (trying to get closer to a CSB workflow since I was copying MIDI data), and raised the velocity response on the Horn a bit to have it respond quicker to the MIDI data. All CC1 data was bumped up from where it was set for CSB, as this library is generally softer than CSB.
> 
> Other than the stage presets, all other internal processing was turned off. Similar to the CSB example, the only external processing was a little Spaces II War Memorial and then the Ozone Maximizer to match the volume of the examples.
> 
> Edit: I now user demos are in high demand, so - while I work full time - let me know if there are features you'd like to learn more about and I can post accompanying examples when I have a moment.




Wow, this is what I wanted to hear. One of the first demos I really like, and actually prefer MSB for this kind of choral brass writing. If you have time Duncan, could you do a short and fast fanfare with both shorts and longs with MSB?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

HelixK said:


> Sorry, I don't share your excitement, the official demos didn't make a good impression on me.



Then don't buy it!

To me that's a killer demo, but what do I know - I'm just a brilliant person with impeccable taste.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

AllanH said:


> The "Starwars fanfare demo" left me speechless; I would have to dig out my Sampletank to replicate that. I really hope AudioBro gets moving on some professional demos, or these initial impressions will be difficult to overcome.



I'm repeating myself, but... if this isn't a professional demo, I don't know what is. It's *exactly* scoring- SCORING BRASS:

https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/

Wanker Star Wars sequence pasted in without being adjusted to any library is going to sound like wanker Star Wars sequence with any library.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

sinkd said:


> You, um... what? I don't think this is how MSB is intended to be used. I also am wary of demos performed/programmed with other libraries being run through a new one--- These instruments need to be performed and it takes time to learn to play a new library.



Sorry for the confusion! Mucusman had it right, I was referring to the demo with CSB. CSB only contains a single C trumpet patch, so I pitch shifted it down a whole step and transposed the MIDI up a whole step to account for the difference. Ergo, my Frankensteinian Bb trumpet.

MSB on the other hand has dedicated Bb and C trumpets, so this wan't needed. I should also mention both that I used separate instances for each instrument instead of the auto divisi here, as I was moving MIDI parts between libraries and also needed independent CC control, and also that - while yes, I did copy parts from a previous demo - I did manipulate the MIDI CC data and wrote CC2 data just for this for the vibrato. But I also wanted to make the point that it copies very nicely by default from CSB, with only minor tweaks. That will certainly be a huge timesaver for me, and I imagine for many others with both libraries as well.


----------



## Eptesicus

Thanks for the demo Duncan. I certainly think MSB edges it there. Sounds very warm and soulful.


----------



## Damarus

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm repeating myself, but... if this isn't a professional demo, I don't know what is. It's *exactly* scoring- SCORING BRASS:
> 
> https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/
> 
> Wanker Star Wars sequence pasted in without being adjusted to any library is going to sound like wanker Star Wars sequence with any library.



I wish I could like this more than once.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

sekkosiki said:


> Wow, this is what I wanted to hear. One of the first demos I really like, and actually prefer MSB for this kind of choral brass writing. If you have time Duncan, could you do a short and fast fanfare with both shorts and longs with MSB?



Be happy to, and thank you for the kind words! I'll work something up when I'm home tonight.

Also, can't find the muddy comment on my phone, but you're not far off! I had to mix the trombone down a bit and make the horn a bit more strident, but as a whole these two instruments in particular I found to be a bit mellower and warmer than need be for this example. So I think, all said and done with the verb, it ended up a bit muddy down there.


----------



## kevthurman

jbuhler said:


> Have you managed to solve the stuttering problem you mentioned upthread?


Not yet. And it doesn't seem to get any better or worse based on how much load is on the system. It stutters the same whether it's full mix, individual mics patched loaded, a full section or a single instrument, etc. I will investigate and use the manual more this afternoon to see if it isn't fixable. If I can't fix it myself I'll go to their support forum.


----------



## Phillip996

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo when I first got my hands on CSB, for which I was most impressed by that particular libraries lower, chorale-fitting dynamics. Picked up MSB immediately for the auto-divisi and extra brass that neither CSB nor HWB had provided. MSB is certainly a different beast, but the reputation that LASS set forward and that even Genesis still carried is that these libraries need to be tweaked to fit what you're using them for. I replaced the CSB instruments with their MSB counterparts in the second demo below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSB only has C trumpets available, whereas MSB offers both C and Bb (1st - C, 2nd - Bb, 3rd - Bb, 4th - C). With the CSB demo, I transposed the second solo trumpet down and bumped the MIDI up by a whole step to emulate a Bb trumpet, which was necessary to get a strong timbral difference between the two. For MSB, I used the first and third trumpets, so both were Bb. This was for the richer tone in the lower range. I preferred the strong legato transitions of CSB, so I increased the volume of transitions in MSB by about 1db each, and lowered the legato speed of each instrument to the lowest setting. I used the Scoring/Film Stage depth control preset on each and made a virtual semi-circle to create a seating arrangement. I also used the mix mics on each at their default, and then brought in some extra close mic to add bite. Sizzle is also set to it's highest setting (this is a very subtle effect). Vibrato is controllable in this library, something CSB does not offer control of. This is set by default to CC2, which actually makes it very easy to copy parts between CSS and MSB. Finally, I set attack control to Velocity (trying to get closer to a CSB workflow since I was copying MIDI data), and raised the velocity response on the Horn a bit to have it respond quicker to the MIDI data. All CC1 data was bumped up from where it was set for CSB, as this library is generally softer than CSB.
> 
> Other than the stage presets, all other internal processing was turned off. Similar to the CSB example, the only external processing was a little Spaces II War Memorial and then the Ozone Maximizer to match the volume of the examples.
> 
> Edit: I now user demos are in high demand, so - while I work full time - let me know if there are features you'd like to learn more about and I can post accompanying examples when I have a moment.




Were you using indivudual tracks for all the instruments or did you use the combined tracks?


----------



## zolhof

Anyone using MSB with a breath controller? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere how friendly this thing is to TEControl BBC2.

Great download speeds btw, solid server.


----------



## NYC Composer

Boy, listening to Duncan's demos, all I can say is that those two are great brass choices. I don't know how you could go wrong with either.


----------



## Nicola74

I don't own MSB yet, but with Genesis the breathcontroller is great!


zolhof said:


> Anyone using MSB with a breath controller? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere how friendly this thing is to TEControl BBC2.
> 
> Great download speeds btw, solid server.


----------



## I like music

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo when I first got my hands on CSB, for which I was most impressed by that particular libraries lower, chorale-fitting dynamics. Picked up MSB immediately for the auto-divisi and extra brass that neither CSB nor HWB had provided. MSB is certainly a different beast, but the reputation that LASS set forward and that even Genesis still carried is that these libraries need to be tweaked to fit what you're using them for. I replaced the CSB instruments with their MSB counterparts in the second demo below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSB only has C trumpets available, whereas MSB offers both C and Bb (1st - C, 2nd - Bb, 3rd - Bb, 4th - C). With the CSB demo, I transposed the second solo trumpet down and bumped the MIDI up by a whole step to emulate a Bb trumpet, which was necessary to get a strong timbral difference between the two. For MSB, I used the first and third trumpets, so both were Bb. This was for the richer tone in the lower range. I preferred the strong legato transitions of CSB, so I increased the volume of transitions in MSB by about 1db each, and lowered the legato speed of each instrument to the lowest setting. I used the Scoring/Film Stage depth control preset on each and made a virtual semi-circle to create a seating arrangement. I also used the mix mics on each at their default, and then brought in some extra close mic to add bite. Sizzle is also set to it's highest setting (this is a very subtle effect). Vibrato is controllable in this library, something CSB does not offer control of. This is set by default to CC2, which actually makes it very easy to copy parts between CSS and MSB. Finally, I set attack control to Velocity (trying to get closer to a CSB workflow since I was copying MIDI data), and raised the velocity response on the Horn a bit to have it respond quicker to the MIDI data. All CC1 data was bumped up from where it was set for CSB, as this library is generally softer than CSB.
> 
> Other than the stage presets, all other internal processing was turned off. Similar to the CSB example, the only external processing was a little Spaces II War Memorial and then the Ozone Maximizer to match the volume of the examples.
> 
> Edit: I know user demos are in high demand, so - while I work full time - let me know if there are features you'd like to learn more about and I can post accompanying examples when I have a moment.




Quite apart from the comparison, a very nice piece. Your own? Wondered if you had a MIDI that you'd be OK sharing. Obviously, no problem if not!
Thanks!


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Noeticus said:


> Hello Patrick,
> 
> Can you say what was not to your liking and what their advice was?



Sure: i thought that the shorts were not tight enough.
But in order to have really tight fast shorts, you must:
- Select the shorts (via KS in my case)
- Set the Tighten knob all the way up, which by default was all the way down.
Make sure to be in Tile mode (i think that it now is set this way by default) , so that any change you make to your articulation are recalled when switching articulations and coming back to it.
- Use CC4 to select double tongue
- adjust CC1 for sharper timber (or not)

- also, pick the humanization setting you prefer: humanization off is the tightest

This seems like a lot to do, but you can save your patch with your preference settings and it is no longer an issue...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

zolhof said:


> Anyone using MSB with a breath controller? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere how friendly this thing is to TEControl BBC2.
> 
> Great download speeds btw, solid server.


I used the TEController (1.0) for all of my MSB brass lines, works great!


----------



## OleJoergensen

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I posted this demo when I first got .


I think both sounds wonderful, maybe I like the timbre of MSB a bit more in your demo. 
It is a lovely chorlal! Is it your own composition?
Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

kevthurman said:


> Here's a couple renditions of the euphonium solo from Holst's second suite in F. It's better than the others I've posted so far as I think this library has a lot of potential for controlling the very minute details of short notes as is asked of the brass in this excerpt. There's one which is completely dry and one which has some spaces II on it.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2-mp3.19594/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2_dry-mp3.19595/][/AUDIOPLUS]



May i suggest that you quantize your lines too much, and that the tempo is too rigid for best results?
It doesn't feel like it was performed by human beings...


----------



## richard kurek

zolhof said:


> Anyone using MSB with a breath controller? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere how friendly this thing is to TEControl BBC2.
> 
> Great download speeds btw, solid server.


my hornberg hb1 great


----------



## zolhof

Awesome, I'm glad to hear that! After using a breath controller with Sample Modeling, it's hard to look back.

I'm also saving for an EWI controller, any users here? So excited to learn a new instrument.


----------



## Noeticus

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Sure: i thought that the shorts were not tight enough.
> But in order to have really tight fast shorts, you must:
> - Select the shorts (via KS in my case)
> - Set the Tighten knob all the way up, which by default was all the way down.
> Make sure to be in Tile mode (i think that it now is set this way by default) , so that any change you make to your articulation are recalled when switching articulations and coming back to it.
> - Use CC4 to select double tongue
> - adjust CC1 for sharper timber (or not)
> 
> - also, pick the humanization setting you prefer: humanization off is the tightest
> 
> This seems like a lot to do, but you can save your patch with your preference settings and it is no longer an issue...



Thanks, Patrick. While it might take a bit, it's way faster than using live people with real instruments. : )


----------



## David Cuny

zolhof said:


> I'm also saving for an EWI controller, any users here? So excited to learn a new instrument.


I use the EWI, and love it. 

Initially, it's a bit weird playing without the keys moving - sort of like playing a broomstick (or a recorder, for that matter).

It takes very little breath, so if you play a wind instrument already, you need to scale back a lot, and possibly let some air out through the sides of you mouth.

Once you work out the basic fingering, you should check out the extensive alternate fingerings, as they can come in quite handy.

You can make a wireless USB EWI with off the shelf hardware for about $150 in additional parts:

Yamaha UD-BT01 ($50)

CME Widi Bud ($50)

Short USB cord ($10)

Portable cell phone battery charger ($15)

Velcro ($5)
I'd highly recommend going that route if you do any live playing. The additional hardware weighs virtually nothing, and it's much nicer than being tied to a USB cable.


----------



## NoamL

kevthurman said:


> I don't think the star wars fanfare someone posted above was a fair representation. This one is a bit better.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/star_wars-mp3.19600/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Sounds like something that would come with Finale, I'm afraid.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm repeating myself, but... if this isn't a professional demo, I don't know what is. It's *exactly* scoring- SCORING BRASS:
> 
> https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/
> 
> Wanker Star Wars sequence pasted in without being adjusted to any library is going to sound like wanker Star Wars sequence with any library.



Yeah but there's a middle ground to this Nick.

Anyone can have their own opinions but I discount both ends of the spectrum. I discount the importance of user demos because people are still learning how to use the library and sometimes the demos are bad copypasted MIDI. But I also discount the developer's demos especially dressed ones. As JunkieXL says in one of his videos, spending weeks to iron out a super polished demo has little to do with how working composers do it.

That's why developer walkthrough videos are really the best, assuming they're comprehensive and honest, because you get to see the library used live, without processing, by someone who knows how it works.


----------



## givemenoughrope

I’m sick of the demo dance too. It’s almost like we should all throw re-peat or rob or some mockup monster a few $€£ so they can buy libraries and do a few mockups. 

That said, I’m pretty sure that Audiobro, given their reputation with LASS, has made a solid and malleable library. If users know how to use it...another story... I’m not prepared to dismiss it on the basis of three demos. Not by a long shot.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

David Cuny said:


> It takes very little breath, so if you play a wind instrument already, you need to scale back a lot, and possibly let some air out through the sides of you mouth.



I too love the EWI, but I have the older EWI 3020/m. Unlike the EWI 1000, it has a vent to let excess breath through, although I too let air out the sides of my mouth at times.

However, you can adjust the breath sensitivity so high that you have to blow so hard your salivary glands hurt! I don't, being a recorder player (and not being a masochist), but you should be able to set it however you feel comfortable.

At least you can do that on the 3020/m.

***
As an aside, I had an EWI 4000S and decided I like the 3020/m better. It requires a big rack unit, but with rare exceptions I only play it in my studio, and I like that the Sensitivity and Adjustment knobs are big and easy to see (rather than the tiny black-on-black ones on the 4000S).

Plus I like the synth better.

***
As an aside aside, can you use that Yamaha contraption on any USB MIDI output?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

NoamL said:


> That's why developer walkthrough videos are really the best



Actually, I don't think you can really get a feel for any library without fondling it, but Andrew does have a video walkthrough up there.


----------



## kevthurman

This one is a bit better than the last as well.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/festive_overture-mp3.19604/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## zolhof

David Cuny said:


> I use the EWI, and love it.
> 
> Initially, it's a bit weird playing without the keys moving - sort of like playing a broomstick (or a recorder, for that matter).
> 
> It takes very little breath, so if you play a wind instrument already, you need to scale back a lot, and possibly let some air out through the sides of you mouth.
> 
> Once you work out the basic fingering, you should check out the extensive alternate fingerings, as they can come in quite handy.
> 
> You can make a wireless USB EWI with off the shelf hardware for about $150 in additional parts:
> 
> Yamaha UD-BT01 ($50)
> 
> CME Widi Bud ($50)
> 
> Short USB cord ($10)
> 
> Portable cell phone battery charger ($15)
> 
> Velcro ($5)
> I'd highly recommend going that route if you do any live playing. The additional hardware weighs virtually nothing, and it's much nicer than being tied to a USB cable.



David, thank you for your thoughtful response.


----------



## tack

The MSB example of Star Wars was horrifying (with apologies to the well-intentioned creator of that example for the strong language). And I'm afraid as much as Noam praised the CSB version, I found myself cringing throughout.

Lest we forget Sample Modeling could do this 7 years ago:



Granted, we don't know how much time and effort was put into each and the skill level of those involved (Sami behind this video is undoubtedly a programming master). But on the face of it, given what we have to work with, I'm left somewhat demoralized about the state of our brass libraries relative to where we were almost a decade ago.


----------



## jbuhler

The technical side of the library—the stuttering, the large RAM footprint, the difficulty some seem to be having in controlling it—seems more worrisome to me than the sound. A good sound can be got from the library, though how difficult it is to draw a good sound from it remains unclear to me. I'm really hoping for more walkthroughs to be able to assess better the library's functionality and workflow.


----------



## dgburns

The horns in MSB have something to them I rather like.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

I like music said:


> Quite apart from the comparison, a very nice piece. Your own? Wondered if you had a MIDI that you'd be OK sharing. Obviously, no problem if not!
> Thanks!



Thanks! The demo was just something I fiddled with when I first purchased CSB. Wasn't meant to be anything more than those 40 seconds. So to that point, I'd be happy to share the MIDI:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s00sdd2atux7w76/MSB Demo Chorale.mid?dl=0



Phillip996 said:


> Were you using indivudual tracks for all the instruments or did you use the combined tracks?



Used individual tracks. I was working on a short fanfare for @sekkosiki, but I'm struggling a bit with it tonight. Need more sleep, me thinks. But for this I was experimenting with combined patches and the auto-divisi. I can see how this would be extremely helpful when writing in the context of a larger orchestra or when you just need brass to be brass, but to be honest - when writing exposed - it just makes so much more sense to me to plan it out per-instrument.


----------



## I like music

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thanks! The demo was just something I fiddled with when I first purchased CSB. Wasn't meant to be anything more than those 40 seconds. So to that point, I'd be happy to share the MIDI:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/s00sdd2atux7w76/MSB Demo Chorale.mid?dl=0
> 
> 
> 
> Used individual tracks. I was working on a short fanfare for @sekkosiki, but I'm struggling a bit with it tonight. Need more sleep, me thinks. But for this I was experimenting with combined patches and the auto-divisi. I can see how this would be extremely helpful when writing in the context of a larger orchestra or when you just need brass to be brass, but to be honest - when writing exposed - it just makes so much more sense to me to plan it out per-instrument.



Wonderful! Thank you so much. So that I understand the tracks correctly, how many of each instrument did you use? Don't think I could find the info in the MIDI. Going to try to remock it with IB if that'd be OK with you!

Thanks!


----------



## sinkd

Duncan Krummel said:


> Sorry for the confusion! Mucusman had it right, I was referring to the demo with CSB. CSB only contains a single C trumpet patch, so I pitch shifted it down a whole step and transposed the MIDI up a whole step to account for the difference. Ergo, my Frankensteinian Bb trumpet.
> 
> MSB on the other hand has dedicated Bb and C trumpets, so this wan't needed. I should also mention both that I used separate instances for each instrument instead of the auto divisi here, as I was moving MIDI parts between libraries and also needed independent CC control, and also that - while yes, I did copy parts from a previous demo - I did manipulate the MIDI CC data and wrote CC2 data just for this for the vibrato. But I also wanted to make the point that it copies very nicely by default from CSB, with only minor tweaks. That will certainly be a huge timesaver for me, and I imagine for many others with both libraries as well.


Thanks for the clarification (of my confused reading) of your post. I am just diving in to MSB myself, but my initial impressions are all very good.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

I like music said:


> Wonderful! Thank you so much. So that I understand the tracks correctly, how many of each instrument did you use? Don't think I could find the info in the MIDI. Going to try to remock it with IB if that'd be OK with you!
> 
> Thanks!


Should be just 5 tracks, yes? Trumpet 1, trumpet 2, horn, trombone, tuba.


----------



## jaketanner

tack said:


> Lest we forget Sample Modeling could do this 7 years ago:



That excerpt was very good! I always thought sample modeling was best used with a breath controller...hence why I never got into it..I prefer straight up mod wheel. But the sound is great. I mean, even the demos on East West's site for their Hollywood orchestra sound pretty good...but as another mentioned, it's not real-world examples of how a working composer uses the libraries...those demos have countless hours behind them...I think we all want libraries that work well out of the box, with minimal fussing.


----------



## I like music

Duncan Krummel said:


> Should be just 5 tracks, yes? Trumpet 1, trumpet 2, horn, trombone, tuba.



Sorry, my mistake. There were 20 tracks but I realise that its just those 5 tracks duplicated somehow. Perfect.

Wonderful piece. You should write some more


----------



## Vadium

Duncan Krummel said:


> I replaced the CSB instruments with their MSB counterparts in the second demo below.


So, MSB example sounds exactly as "wear someone else's shoes". I hope that MSB can much more if create an example with MSB from scratch.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Vadium said:


> So, MSB example sounds exactly as "wear someone else's shoes". I hope that MSB can much more if create an example with MSB from scratch.


I should hope, CSB has niente - and to my knowledge - MSB is NOT. So right out the gate, that makes the entire dynamic curve and midi programming different.


----------



## Lode_Runner

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thanks! The demo was just something I fiddled with when I first purchased CSB. Wasn't meant to be anything more than those 40 seconds.


That composition is far too beautiful to just be left as a forty second fiddling, even if that's how it began, it is gorgeous and could be expanded out to a longer composition.

Also it has completely changed my perception of MSB. Audiobro really should seek to use it as one of their demo tracks.


----------



## I like music

Lode_Runner said:


> That composition is far too beautiful to just be left as a forty second fiddling, even if that's how it began, it is gorgeous and could be expanded out to a longer composition.
> 
> Also it has completely changed my perception of MSB. Audiobro really should seek to use it as one of their demo tracks.



I made the same suggestion. I'd be keen on hearing that music expanded a few more minutes for sure!


----------



## FriFlo

ProfoundSilence said:


> I should hope, CSB has niente - and to my knowledge - MSB is NOT. So right out the gate, that makes the entire dynamic curve and midi programming different.


And be aware that while niente is certainly ok to use for strings and some of the woodwinds (I still prefer a combo of dynamics via CC1 and additional loudness via CC11, though), but it is absolutely wrong to use on brass and double reeds. It will not yield realistic sound and you should not use it if you care for that kind of stuff. Brass simply does not fade to silence ...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

FriFlo said:


> And be aware that while niente is certainly ok to use for strings and some of the woodwinds (I still prefer a combo of dynamics via CC1 and additional loudness via CC11, though), but it is absolutely wrong to use on brass and double reeds. It will not yield realistic sound and you should not use it if you care for that kind of stuff. Brass simply does not fade to silence ...


It's the sole reason I don't use CSS(and the reason despite how well made it is I don't want CSB)
Strings you could argue could **almost** go to niente…. but with CSB it looks like the most "bottom dynamic" is really like 30-40 cc1, and the rest is just fading out. 

Silky smooth transitions - but that alone makes me not even use CSS.


----------



## Go To 11

ProfoundSilence said:


> It's the sole reason I don't use CSS(and the reason despite how well made it is I don't want CSB)
> Strings you could argue could **almost** go to niente…. but with CSB it looks like the most "bottom dynamic" is really like 30-40 cc1, and the rest is just fading out.
> 
> Silky smooth transitions - but that alone makes me not even use CSS.


That's really good to know. Why not just make 30 your minimum then and use it like that to get realistic results?


----------



## remembrance

Is anyone able to compare this library to VSL brass?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Go To 11 said:


> That's really good to know. Why not just make 30 your minimum then and use it like that to get realistic results?



its just not that low of a dynamic - brass tone changes dramatically from pp to ff - it's not just a matter of volume. I don't think I need to explain the irony of your user name asking me that. 

But to clarify:

you can reduce the volume of a horn playing at fortissimo all you want, it'll never sound like pianissimo

you can increase the volume of a horn playing at pianissimo all you want, it'll never sound like fortissimo

CSB has absolutely stunning crossfades of the higher dynamics - but very little ACTUAL low dynamics to work with, sounds dull and low volume - rather than golden and mellow.


----------



## driscollmusick

I downloaded two days ago. I have a somewhat unique workflow (working in Finale to send MIDI data into Cubase running simultaneously), so "playability" via keyboard is not really something I have assessed. I don't have a demo but I have been trying to work it into an existing orchestral piece and here are my initial thoughts:

The "Full Mix" works quite well in the context of my previously all-Spitfire Symphonic template. Without any tweaks of reverb, placement or volume, it sounds quite integrated with SS Winds and Strings, but with a lot more power and presence than the SS Brass (this is exactly what I was looking for).

Extended ranges, preprogrammed crescendos (including Sfz-Cresc) and variable trill speeds are also super helpful (your mileage may vary).

I am having trouble getting the shorts to articulate correctly, though this may just be the learning curve (usually this is the hardest thing to get to sound realistic)

I wish there were more explanation of the Divisi concept. There are two Horn sets ("Horns1" (includes solo Horns 1 and 3) and "Horns2" (solo Horns 2 and 4)). But each of these two sets also includes extra horn pairs (Horns 5+6 and Horns 7+8, in "Horns 1" and "Horns 2" both). In each of these sets, you can select "Duet", "Trio", or "Quartet", but in practice what are the "Trio" and "Quartet" settings actually doing if they are pulling in *pairs* of horns? Is "Trio" actually two solo horns (1/3) + a pair (5/6) = 4 horns?, is "Quartet" actually two solo horns (1/3) + two pairs (5/6/7/8) = 6 horns? If you set it up as a "Trio" and play a triad, are you actually getting solos on two notes and a pair of horns on the third? The nomenclature is confusing, so I will need to spend some more time on this.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Nigel : You’re on 30 on your CC1, where can you go from there? Where?
Marty: I don’t know.
Nigel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty: Put it down to zero.
Nigel: Zero. Exactly. Even softer.
Marty: Why don’t you just make 30 louder and make 0 be the smallest value and make that a little softer?
Nigel: (pause) These go to 30.


----------



## kevthurman

driscollmusick said:


> I downloaded two days ago. I have a somewhat unique workflow (working in Finale to send MIDI data into Cubase running simultaneously), so "playability" via keyboard is not really something I have assessed. I don't have a demo but I have been trying to work it into an existing orchestral piece and here are my initial thoughts:
> 
> The "Full Mix" works quite well in the context of my previously all-Spitfire Symphonic template. Without any tweaks of reverb, placement or volume, it sounds quite integrated with SS Winds and Strings, but with a lot more power and presence than the SS Brass (this is exactly what I was looking for).
> 
> Extended ranges, preprogrammed crescendos (including Sfz-Cresc) and variable trill speeds are also super helpful (your mileage may vary).
> 
> I am having trouble getting the shorts to articulate correctly, though this may just be the learning curve (usually this is the hardest thing to get to sound realistic)
> 
> I wish there were more explanation of the Divisi concept. There are two Horn sets ("Horns1" (includes solo Horns 1 and 3) and "Horns2" (solo Horns 2 and 4)). But each of these two sets also includes extra horn pairs (Horns 5+6 and Horns 7+8, in "Horns 1" and "Horns 2" both). In each of these sets, you can select "Duet", "Trio", or "Quartet", but in practice what are the "Trio" and "Quartet" settings actually doing if they are pulling in *pairs* of horns? Is "Trio" actually two solo horns (1/3) + a pair (5/6) = 4 horns?, is "Quartet" actually two solo horns (1/3) + two pairs (5/6/7/8) = 6 horns? If you set it up as a "Trio" and play a triad, are you actually getting solos on two notes and a pair of horns on the third? The nomenclature is confusing, so I will need to spend some more time on this.


The engine labels the different arrangements of patches. If you select trio you get 3 of the patches, duet 2 of them, and so on. Those patches are 2 horns each but they are in effect each one instrument.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

whitewasteland said:


> Nigel : You’re on 30 on your CC1, where can you go from there? Where?
> Marty: I don’t know.
> Nigel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
> Marty: Put it down to zero.
> Nigel: Zero. Exactly. Even softer.
> Marty: Why don’t you just make 30 softer and make 0 be the smallest value and make that a little softer?
> Nigel: (pause) These go to 30.


I mean, at first I thought they made the account just to post that - but I realized they had likes/previous posts hahaha. Was half awake and was thinking "but these go to 11"

then my eyes opened a little more and I'm like...…………. there is NO way that is the user name.


----------



## driscollmusick

kevthurman said:


> The engine labels the different arrangements of patches. If you select trio you get 3 of the patches, duet 2 of them, and so on. Those patches are 2 horns each but they are in effect each one instrument.


What do you mean by "in effect"? Is it actually playing one horn on the third note? Then why not just list out Horns 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and let you choose the size of the ensemble?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

driscollmusick said:


> What do you mean by "in effect"? Is it actually playing one horn on the third note? Then why not just list out Horns 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and let you choose the size of the ensemble?



From what it looks like in the video - I see your issue. 

if you have Horn 1 loaded, its 1 + 1 + 2a.

so if you play 3 notes, "2 horns" are playing one of the notes. 

There are specific rules on how create your own divisi behavior I think - based on what I read peeking at the manual.


----------



## jbuhler

driscollmusick said:


> What do you mean by "in effect"? Is it actually playing one horn on the third note? Then why not just list out Horns 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and let you choose the size of the ensemble?


This is one thing I've been trying to figure out. Can you address each of the horns individually, and so give a solo, say, to Horn 4, or is it set up so horn 4 only sounds if horn 2 is also playing? And is the manual available without buying the library? I looked for it on the MSB page but didn't see a link.


----------



## Eptesicus

I would be very surprised if a decent Star Wars mock up could not be done with based on "*Reaching The Summit" *demo.

The trumpets sound fantastic in the opening for that.


----------



## Zedcars

kevthurman said:


> I don't want to seem too harsh. I'm mostly excited to dig in because I still am confident that there is a lot under the surface of this library. Hope I can figure out what's causing the *stuttering* because then I can experiment more quickly. There's definitely some great content in there and I have a demo I'm going to make tomorrow that should show off the strengths of this library really well. Most of the stuff I said above was just my frustrated in the moment ranting after a long day but when I come back with a clear mind tomorrow afternoon I bet I'll be a lot more positive and patient.


Have you tried disabling NKS support? Look in the folder called "No NKS Resource Container".

The Readme says:


> This has the affect of improving performance and eliminating occasional stuttering for Logic X users.



Not too sure what DAW you have or if you need to have NKS support enabled. Might be worth a try to see if it helps.


----------



## Living Fossil

givemenoughrope said:


> I’m sick of the demo dance too. It’s almost like we should all throw re-peat or rob or some mockup monster a few $€£ so they can buy libraries and do a few mockups.
> 
> That said, I’m pretty sure that Audiobro, given their reputation with LASS, has made a solid and malleable library. If users know how to use it...another story... I’m not prepared to dismiss it on the basis of three demos. Not by a long shot.



From those few demos i've heard so far, my impression is that this library is probably fantastic.
But it's a library that obviously can sound horrible in the wrong hands.
Audiobro really should keep an eye on good demos coming...


----------



## Andrew Christie

NoamL said:


> As JunkieXL says in one of his videos, spending weeks to iron out a super polished demo has little to do with how working composers do it.



Bingo


----------



## givemenoughrope

NoamL said:


> As JunkieXL says in one of his videos, spending weeks to iron out a super polished demo has little to do with how working composers do it.



Ok...but he has the budgets and $ to hire players, midi wranglers, orchestrators and copyists just for a demo. The users polishing samples for weeks are probably using them as the end product.


----------



## driscollmusick

jbuhler said:


> This is one thing I've been trying to figure out. Can you address each of the horns individually, and so give a solo, say, to Horn 4, or is it set up so horn 4 only sounds if horn 2 is also playing? And is the manual available without buying the library? I looked for it on the MSB page but didn't see a link.



The Intuition series is all solo instruments. For the "sets" you can set Auto Divisi to "Per Voice" which will make single voice lines played by one instrument or "Tutti" which makes single voices played by all activated instruments in the set.

Not sure why they are not making the manual available. It explicitly states that you can't post it anywhere.


----------



## richard kurek

driscollmusick said:


> The Intuition series is all solo instruments. For the "sets" you can set Auto Divisi to "Per Voice" which will make single voice lines played by one instrument or "Tutti" which makes single voices played by all activated instruments in the set.
> 
> Not sure why they are not making the manual available. It explicitly states that you can't post it anywhere.


manual is in documentation folder


----------



## jbuhler

driscollmusick said:


> The Intuition series is all solo instruments. For the "sets" you can set Auto Divisi to "Per Voice" which will make single voice lines played by one instrument or "Tutti" which makes single voices played by all activated instruments in the set.
> 
> Not sure why they are not making the manual available. It explicitly states that you can't post it anywhere.


Audiobro is certainly making it most difficult to learn much about the library without sending them $600. One perfunctory walkthrough and two demos, no access to the manual. The sound of the library in capable hands seems fine, but only fine. I can say that for me there is not nearly enough information about the library yet to warrant a purchase.


----------



## jbuhler

richard kurek said:


> manual is in documentation folder


That doesn't help much if you don't own the library but you want to learn more about its capabilities.


----------



## Eptesicus

Agreed. Its a lot of money. I need to see far more walkthroughs and videos and hear many more demos before im parting with $599.

I was burnt badly by Synchron Strings, and i'm not letting a company do that to me again.

It still surprises me that more sample companies don't do demos or free trials (ie maybe just some articulations with limited ranges etc).


----------



## Eptesicus

kevthurman said:


> Here's a couple renditions of the euphonium solo from Holst's second suite in F. It's better than the others I've posted so far as I think this library has a lot of potential for controlling the very minute details of short notes as is asked of the brass in this excerpt. There's one which is completely dry and one which has some spaces II on it.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2-mp3.19594/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/holst_suite_2_dry-mp3.19595/][/AUDIOPLUS]



This displays some quite impressive legato i have to say.


----------



## DocMidi657

They'd probably lose more sales then they would gain by offering demos or free trials.


Eptesicus said:


> It still surprises me that more sample companies don't do demos or free trials (ie maybe just some articulations with limited ranges etc).


----------



## erica-grace

DocMidi657 said:


> They'd probably lose more sales then they would gain by offering demos or free trials.



Not if the product was spectacular, they wouldn't.


----------



## DocMidi657

erica-grace said:


> Not if the product was spectacular, they wouldn't.


no argument with that!


----------



## pderbidge

Eptesicus said:


> Agreed. Its a lot of money. I need to see far more walkthroughs and videos and hear many more demos before im parting with $599.
> 
> I was burnt badly by Synchron Strings, and i'm not letting a company do that to me again.
> 
> It still surprises me that more sample companies don't do demos or free trials (ie maybe just some articulations with limited ranges etc).



I agree that they should do more demos, however, Audiobro doesn't have a track record of providing detailed demos and walk through videos. I spent countless hours, weeks, ok actually months trying to decide on LASS because I did not want to part with $1k without being sure. The info provided by Audiobro IMO was too lackluster to make a decision so I turned to user compositions on soundcloud and various user forums to decide. In the end LASS has become my favorite string library and is used constantly. Well worth the $1k I spent, and that was without the sordinos (which I still don't have by the way) that they bundle with it now. All I can say is that the reputation of Audiobro is that you get a lot for your money, and I'm not just speaking of articulations and such but the ability to shape the sound you want and mold the library to your liking. Flexibility seems to be their forte. Of course, there's always a chance a company, even Audiobro, could make a "fail" but based on the more recent user demos and feedback it seems this library is very capable. These types of libs will always sound terrible without understanding how to shape the sound so it will take some learning. If you want out of the box sound, then ProjectSam and others have you covered on that, but if you want versatility, agility, and the ability to mold an instrument to "your" sound then that seems to be Audiobro's Forte. I do not, however, own this library so I'm only speaking from my experience with LASS 2 and feedback from other Audiobro Users of their libraries. I feel your pain though, $600 is a lot to part with but if you weren't happy with Synchron, which I believe is another library that takes a learning curve, then you have to ask yourself if these types of libraries are for you or not. I've accepted the learning curve and have embraced the fact that I want to learn the techniques that these libraries require because I feel in the end they will make me a better composer (at least a better midi composer) but everyone has different needs/wants.


----------



## brek

pderbidge said:


> I agree that they should do more demos, however, Audiobro doesn't have a track record of providing detailed demos and walk through videos. I spent countless hours, weeks, ok actually months trying to decide on LASS because I did not want to part with $1k without being sure. The info provided by Audiobro IMO was too lackluster to make a decision so I turned to user compositions on soundcloud and various user forums to decide.



If you thought LASS was lacking, try to find something...anything... out there that shows any of the standard percussion sounds in LADD.


----------



## jneebz

New “Closer Look at Horns” video is up. Scroll down a bit on webpage:

"In this video we'll take a closer look at the horns in Modern Scoring Brass. We'll look at unmuted, muted, and stopped horns and provide numerous isolated examples so you can hear how they will sound right out-of-the-box."

https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/

Or YouTube:


----------



## jneebz

Annnnnnnnnd those are the best horn samples I've ever heard. I think the upper dynamics sound great, no? Just the right amount of "splat" IMO. And I think the ART feature is just fantastic...sounds very real to me. My hope in this library is re-kindled!


----------



## markleake

The horns sound fantastic... legatos and shorts, solo and ensemble, muted and unmuted. All of them sound wonderful.

I didn't realise the legatos and all the short articulations were duplicated for mutes and stopped. If the other parts of the library are this good and comprehensive, this is a sure thing for me to get.

In this video they seem to be going out of their way make it clear you don't need to work hard to do this. Possibly in response to the poor user demos?


----------



## Raphioli

jneebz said:


> New “Closer Look at Horns” video is up. Scroll down a bit on webpage:
> 
> "In this video we'll take a closer look at the horns in Modern Scoring Brass. We'll look at unmuted, muted, and stopped horns and provide numerous isolated examples so you can hear how they will sound right out-of-the-box."
> 
> https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/
> 
> Or YouTube:




I definitely would like to see this type of videos for the trumpets.


----------



## Eptesicus

jneebz said:


> New “Closer Look at Horns” video is up. Scroll down a bit on webpage:
> 
> "In this video we'll take a closer look at the horns in Modern Scoring Brass. We'll look at unmuted, muted, and stopped horns and provide numerous isolated examples so you can hear how they will sound right out-of-the-box."
> 
> https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/
> 
> Or YouTube:




Now i want it again :D

I hope they do one of these for all the sections. That would be really useful (maybe not every instrument but maybe at least a trumpet and trombone one).


----------



## jamwerks

They did about 10 in-depth videos for Genesis. Can't imagine them not doing the same here.


----------



## Go To 11

ProfoundSilence said:


> its just not that low of a dynamic - brass tone changes dramatically from pp to ff - it's not just a matter of volume. I don't think I need to explain the irony of your user name asking me that.
> 
> But to clarify:
> 
> you can reduce the volume of a horn playing at fortissimo all you want, it'll never sound like pianissimo
> 
> you can increase the volume of a horn playing at pianissimo all you want, it'll never sound like fortissimo
> 
> CSB has absolutely stunning crossfades of the higher dynamics - but very little ACTUAL low dynamics to work with, sounds dull and low volume - rather than golden and mellow.


Touché sir. Very good. Thanks for clarifying. I took it to mean that ppp was at 30-40, but now I understand, the lowest layer just isn’t there. Cheers.


----------



## Go To 11

whitewasteland said:


> Nigel : You’re on 30 on your CC1, where can you go from there? Where?
> Marty: I don’t know.
> Nigel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
> Marty: Put it down to zero.
> Nigel: Zero. Exactly. Even softer.
> Marty: Why don’t you just make 30 louder and make 0 be the smallest value and make that a little softer?
> Nigel: (pause) These go to 30.


I’ve only been here a few months, but this makes me feel very integrated, so thanks. Turns out I was confused whether they had recorded the softest layer of dynamics or not in addition to an extra fade out, but you know what, I’ll just let the username irony stand this time haha. Cheers!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Go To 11 said:


> I’ve only been here a few months, but this makes me feel very integrated, so thanks. Turns out I was confused whether they had recorded the softest layer of dynamics or not in addition to an extra fade out, but you know what, I’ll just let the username irony stand this time haha. Cheers!



Ahah, please don't take this the wrong way, it's just your username made the whole thing very funny  Cheers !


----------



## Go To 11

whitewasteland said:


> Ahah, please don't take this the wrong way, it's just your username made the whole thing very funny  Cheers !


No no I thought it was perfect!


----------



## axb312

jneebz said:


> New “Closer Look at Horns” video is up. Scroll down a bit on webpage:
> 
> "In this video we'll take a closer look at the horns in Modern Scoring Brass. We'll look at unmuted, muted, and stopped horns and provide numerous isolated examples so you can hear how they will sound right out-of-the-box."
> 
> https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-brass/
> 
> Or YouTube:




Upper dynamics seem a little restrained....


----------



## Guy Rowland

Having heard the horn walkthrough I took the plunge this morning. Downloaded the entire 160gb library hassle-free in under 2 hours.

I'm pretty gobsmacked. The range and depth is phenomenal, and the tone almost entirely throughout sounds gorgeous. I think the one thing I didn't like in the demos was the trumpets when played divisi at high dynamics, for me this is where that metallic thing comes in, or perhaps a better description is too flat. I find adding vibrato pretty much does the trick to just get some movement going in there and get rid of that oddly sterile tone. For me it doesn't seem to apply to the other instruments (and the vibrato, by the way, works FAR better than I feared it would).

I've posted about a dozen short audio clips of some first impressions of the different instruments over on The Sound Board, playing the legato / longs patches. In time I'll do a proper video walkthrough or two which I'll post here, but I'll leave that til I've properly got my head round all the options. It's a busy few weeks so bear with me!

But in short... I've grown an extra arm just to give this three thumbs up. Can't believe its only $599, bargain of the year IMO.


----------



## Eptesicus

Guy Rowland said:


> Having heard the horn walkthrough I took the plunge this morning. Downloaded the entire 160gb library hassle-free in under 2 hours.
> 
> I'm pretty gobsmacked. The range and depth is phenomenal, and the tone almost entirely throughout sounds gorgeous. I think the one thing I didn't like in the demos was the trumpets when played divisi at high dynamics, for me this is where that metallic thing comes in, or perhaps a better description is too flat. I find adding vibrato pretty much does the trick to just get some movement going in there and get rid of that oddly sterile tone. For me it doesn't seem to apply to the other instruments (and the vibrato, by the way, works FAR better than I feared it would).
> 
> I've posted about a dozen short audio clips of some first impressions of the different instruments over on The Sound Board, playing the legato / longs patches. In time I'll do a proper video walkthrough or two which I'll post here, but I'll leave that til I've properly got my head round all the options. It's a busy few weeks so bear with me!
> 
> But in short... I've grown an extra arm just to give this three thumbs up. Can't believe its only $599, bargain of the year IMO.



Well that's encouraging. I have just listened to your demos on The Sound Board and it does sound good.


----------



## remembrance

Guy Rowland said:


> I've posted about a dozen short audio clips of some first impressions of the different instruments over on The Sound Board, playing the legato / longs patches.



Do you have a link that you could share? I could not find it via Google unfortunately.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

the top end of those cimbassi sound gorgeous!


----------



## richard kurek

jbuhler said:


> That doesn't help much if you don't own the library but you want to learn more about its capabilities.


understood ,*driscollmusick mentioned he didnt have the manual , just pointing the way ,post not ment for non owners (no mal intent)*


----------



## sinkd

Trumpet vid is up:


----------



## jbuhler

Guy Rowland said:


> Having heard the horn walkthrough I took the plunge this morning. Downloaded the entire 160gb library hassle-free in under 2 hours.
> 
> I'm pretty gobsmacked. The range and depth is phenomenal, and the tone almost entirely throughout sounds gorgeous. I think the one thing I didn't like in the demos was the trumpets when played divisi at high dynamics, for me this is where that metallic thing comes in, or perhaps a better description is too flat. I find adding vibrato pretty much does the trick to just get some movement going in there and get rid of that oddly sterile tone. For me it doesn't seem to apply to the other instruments (and the vibrato, by the way, works FAR better than I feared it would).
> 
> I've posted about a dozen short audio clips of some first impressions of the different instruments over on The Sound Board, playing the legato / longs patches. In time I'll do a proper video walkthrough or two which I'll post here, but I'll leave that til I've properly got my head round all the options. It's a busy few weeks so bear with me!
> 
> But in short... I've grown an extra arm just to give this three thumbs up. Can't believe its only $599, bargain of the year IMO.


How demanding is the library on resources when fully loaded in? Will you be able to load up your brass and have RAM left over for other instruments?


----------



## Guy Rowland

remembrance said:


> Do you have a link that you could share? I could not find it via Google unfortunately.



https://thesoundboard.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3281&p=48808#p48808 (hope this is ok, mods let me know if not and I'll zap). I just discovered the Intuition patches and they are absolutely stunning, I put a couple of quick demos of those up too.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Guy Rowland said:


> Having heard the horn walkthrough I took the plunge this morning. Downloaded the entire 160gb library hassle-free in under 2 hours.
> 
> I'm pretty gobsmacked. The range and depth is phenomenal, and the tone almost entirely throughout sounds gorgeous. I think the one thing I didn't like in the demos was the trumpets when played divisi at high dynamics, for me this is where that metallic thing comes in, or perhaps a better description is too flat. I find adding vibrato pretty much does the trick to just get some movement going in there and get rid of that oddly sterile tone. For me it doesn't seem to apply to the other instruments (and the vibrato, by the way, works FAR better than I feared it would).
> 
> I've posted about a dozen short audio clips of some first impressions of the different instruments over on The Sound Board, playing the legato / longs patches. In time I'll do a proper video walkthrough or two which I'll post here, but I'll leave that til I've properly got my head round all the options. It's a busy few weeks so bear with me!
> 
> But in short... I've grown an extra arm just to give this three thumbs up. Can't believe its only $599, bargain of the year IMO.


Thank you Guy. Again. 
I’d also like to know what you think of resource usage. 
And can I ask you about placement and if you’ve looked at that? How well does it work using the tools included? Or with third party tools and if so which? 
I know that’s demanding but anything you can say or manage to do is appreciated. Thank you again. 

I’ve just dropped funds on some new hardware as I wasn’t fully on board but reading your comments (and about to listen on Soundboard) I might have to earn some more funds pronto.


----------



## Guy Rowland

jbuhler said:


> How demanding is the library on resources when fully loaded in? Will you be able to load up your brass and have RAM left over for other instruments?



Well, I'm 98% sure I'm going to put the Close / Decca / Surround onto rust, the differences are really small in this hall, it's nothing like as pronounced as for an ambient library. Incidentally I think this could be the same hall as LASS, confirming what I've always thought that the single mix they provided for LASS works just fine (it was a mix of close, Decca and Surround just as with MSB AFAIK), and others are just bloat really.

So loading up the following Full Mix only patches with all artics loaded:

Horns 1, Trumpets, Piccolo Trumpets, Bones, Cimbassi, Tuba, Flugelhorn, Euphonium and a couple of Intuition patches comes to 3.67gb on preload buffers of 18k. That's really very reasonable imo. I run disabled in VE Pro and usually purged, but I know some of these patches aren't DFD, so will likely break it down into a few different patches some of which will be purged and some not. Though TBH these figures are so low I may as well run them unpurged but disabled.

SoNowWhat - I've not yet touched placement tools yet, finding the defaults a perfectly good start though. I've added some dry (in both senses of the word) examples of the different mic mixes without reverb, along with some dynamics tests on the shorts.


----------



## jbuhler

Guy Rowland said:


> Well, I'm 98% sure I'm going to put the Close / Decca / Surround onto rust, the differences are really small in this hall, it's nothing like as pronounced as for an ambient library. Incidentally I think this could be the same hall as LASS, confirming what I've always thought that the single mix they provided for LASS works just fine (it was a mix of close, Decca and Surround just as with MSB AFAIK), and others are just bloat really.
> 
> So loading up the following Full Mix only patches with all artics loaded:
> 
> Horns 1, Trumpets, Piccolo Trumpets, Bones, Cimbassi, Tuba, Flugelhorn, Euphonium and a couple of Intuition patches comes to 3.67gb on preload buffers of 18k. That's really very reasonable imo. I run disabled in VE Pro and usually purged, but I know some of these patches aren't DFD, so will likely break it down into a few different patches some of which will be purged and some not. Though TBH these figures are so low I may as well run them unpurged but disabled.
> 
> SoNowWhat - I've not yet touched placement tools yet, finding the defaults a perfectly good start though. I've added some dry (in both senses of the word) examples of the different mic mixes without reverb, along with some dynamics tests on the shorts.


thanks for this run down.


----------



## jneebz

axb312 said:


> Upper dynamics seem a little restrained....


Maybe for Hans  I realize it’s pretty subjective, I just appreciate how it breaks up without getting too “buzzy.”


----------



## axb312

jneebz said:


> Maybe for Hans  I realize it’s pretty subjective, I just appreciate how it breaks up without getting too “buzzy.”



Actually comparing to CSB or WA 2FH or Organic Samples Horn lib.


----------



## Go To 11

Guy Rowland said:


> https://thesoundboard.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3281&p=48808#p48808 (hope this is ok, mods let me know if not and I'll zap). I just discovered the Intuition patches and they are absolutely stunning, I put a couple of quick demos of those up too.


Thanks so much for all these amazing examples! Really great to hear the library in isolation. It does sound fantastic. Longs, shorts, mic mixes - we owe you one! I believe the library was recorded in Studio 22 in Budapest where they also recorded Genesis and the NI Symphonic Strings (made by AudioBro): https://www.budapestfilmorchestra.com/studios


----------



## ProfoundSilence

axb312 said:


> Actually comparing to CSB or WA 2FH or Organic Samples Horn lib.




to be fair, I'm pretty sure CSB and WA have probably the most ridiculous top dynamic of any horn library I've heard ever. You'll never get players to put out that much air in real life anyways - so it's not a tremendous loss. CSB is blistering, and if WA had 4 players with the same lungs on them I think I'd be pressing charges. 

Outside of those 2 libraries - getting a LEGATO patch with that amount of cuivre is pretty wild. I'm not sure what music you listen to that features that dynamic held for any reasonable length of time. Maybe you're confusing real life with a whole generation of sample music?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Guy Rowland said:


> I think the one thing I didn't like in the demos was the trumpets when played divisi at high dynamics, for me this is where that metallic thing comes in, or perhaps a better description is too flat. I find adding vibrato pretty much does the trick to just get some movement going in there and get rid of that oddly sterile tone.



I have agree with this sentiment about the trumpets, and it had been foiling any good attempt at creating a demo for the shorts. Finally realized the trumpets just sound off, or at least I haven't found a convincing setting for them. The differences between the same phrases played by a tutti patch and separate solo patches is also something worth investigating.



Lode_Runner said:


> That composition is far too beautiful to just be left as a forty second fiddling, even if that's how it began, it is gorgeous and could be expanded out to a longer composition.



Thank you! I may very well turn it into something more, once my plate clears up a bit. But I appreciate all of the kind words from everyone


----------



## jbuhler

Thanks everyone for the comments and examples. The horn and trumpet videos along with @Guy Rowland's examples have convinced me that the library is not overly fussy and Guy's comments suggest it will not demand too many resources. I didn't especially like the sound of the trombones in Guy's examples nor the euphoniums or flugelhorns. The trombones are especially concerning, and I await Audiobro's closer look on them. The tuba sounds great, but I had a sense this was a gem from the initial walkthrough video. Some additional contextual demos that show how the instruments sit in an orchestral context or comments from those who have the library about how much (if at all) you have to tweak the instruments to get them to sit would be appreciated.


----------



## Pianolando

This library sounds absolutely friggin awesome!


----------



## axb312

ProfoundSilence said:


> to be fair, I'm pretty sure CSB and WA have probably the most ridiculous top dynamic of any horn library I've heard ever. You'll never get players to put out that much air in real life anyways - so it's not a tremendous loss. CSB is blistering, and if WA had 4 players with the same lungs on them I think I'd be pressing charges.
> 
> Outside of those 2 libraries - getting a LEGATO patch with that amount of cuivre is pretty wild. I'm not sure what music you listen to that features that dynamic held for any reasonable length of time. Maybe you're confusing real life with a whole generation of sample music?



What is true is not a lot of sample libraries capture this dynamic. What is also true is that CSB and WA 2FH did it with real horn players.

Most compositions would probably have the modwheel going to 100-110 at max, but it's nice to have that extra power there when you need it.


----------



## Guy Rowland

jbuhler said:


> Thanks everyone for the comments and examples. The horn and trumpet videos along with @Guy Rowland's examples have convinced me that the library is not overly fussy and Guy's comments suggest it will not demand too many resources. I didn't especially like the sound of the trombones in Guy's examples nor the euphoniums or flugelhorns. The trombones are especially concerning, and I await Audiobro's closer look on them. The tuba sounds great, but I had a sense this was a gem from the initial walkthrough video. Some additional contextual demos that show how the instruments sit in an orchestral context or comments from those who have the library about how much (if at all) you have to tweak the instruments to get them to sit would be appreciated.



Can you put your finger on what you don't like about those instruments? I'm pretty delighted with all three, ecstatic with the flugelhorns actually.


----------



## Geoff Grace

axb312 said:


> What is true is not a lot of sample libraries capture this dynamic. What is also true is that CSB and WA 2FH did it with real horn players.


Perhaps the distinction to make is of what's possible vs what's probable.

I've attended orchestral recording sessions, but I've never attended an orchestral sampling session. That said, I imagine the process of sampling an orchestral instrument (or sections) to be more akin to vocal tracking and comping than to orchestral tracking. In other words, through sampling, you can capture exceptional performances and then play them over and over again at the keyboard as if they were commonplace.

While it's always good to have options, it's probably also wise to consider how things will sound under normal conditions—especially if a mockup is being used to provide an example of how an orchestra will sound.

Of course, if the piece you're working on is the ends and not the means, then all that matters is getting the sound you want. In a world in which quantizing and Auto Tune are commonplace, an exceptionally blistering brass part will fade into the woodwork.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## jamwerks

What library does WA stand for?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> What library does WA stand for?


ross Sampson's waverunner audio


----------



## jbuhler

Guy Rowland said:


> Can you put your finger on what you don't like about those instruments? I'm pretty delighted with all three, ecstatic with the flugelhorns actually.


I would say none of them are bad—they aren't unusable or anything—but they each lack what I think of as the distinctive sound of the instrument. The flugelhorns I know less well, never having played in an ensemble that used them regularly, but the bits I heard lack the mellow, conical sound I associate with the instrument. The euphonium was similar and this is an instrument I'm well acquainted with. But especially in the upper range where it is often used for solos it lacked the character, which I would describe as almost velvety, I want. I noticed this in the Holst example upthread as well. 

In the examples, the trombones sound more to me like generic low brass than distinctly trombones. Compared to the trumpet, horn, and tuba in particular, they just seem undistinguished. I would be interested in hearing how well the trombones can snarl as well as a swell played by the trombones and the horns back to back, both in the mid-upper range in close position and then in the lower-mid range in open spacing. And then doing something like the big trombone entrance of the Pilgrim's Chorus from the Tannhäuser Overture. Does the distinctive coloring of the trombone emerge? When Audiobro does the closer look with the trombone, I'm hopeful it just happened to be the examples and the distinctive character is in the samples.


----------



## NoamL

givemenoughrope said:


> Ok...but he has the budgets and $ to hire players, midi wranglers, orchestrators and copyists just for a demo. The users polishing samples for weeks are probably using them as the end product.



Well, currently I work as a MIDI wrangler. Also known as Synthestrator. So I can tell you that synthestrators aren't spending weeks on demos either. The time scales just don't exist. I am looking for libraries that sound 90% great fast and, even more importantly, for the 10% lack of realism that remains, I know what controls to change to _predictably_ make a desired change in the sound. Inconsistently programmed libraries are a huge unaffordable time sink because they force a synthestrator to sit there and experiment with all the control options trying to get to a goal sound.



ProfoundSilence said:


> to be fair, I'm pretty sure CSB and WA have probably the most ridiculous top dynamic of any horn library I've heard ever. You'll never get players to put out that much air in real life anyways - so it's not a tremendous loss. CSB is blistering, and if WA had 4 players with the same lungs on them I think I'd be pressing charges.
> 
> Outside of those 2 libraries - getting a LEGATO patch with that amount of cuivre is pretty wild. I'm not sure what music you listen to that features that dynamic held for any reasonable length of time. Maybe you're confusing real life with a whole generation of sample music?



The top dynamic level of CSB isn't meant for sustained playing. It's not realistic to do so and indeed, the sample are only a few seconds long so you can hear quite audible looping on some notes (mostly horns).

So why even record that level of dynamics? I think Andrew W put it very well in one of his videos. You're not going to use fff often but when you need it, it has to be available. I use it on things like the final push of a crescendo. Or when you're playing a staccato ostinato that's been moving from f to ff and the last note has to really BLAST, then you can use fff. For the most part, keeping the modwheel at 100 for CSB legatos (70 for marcato legato) is as loud as you'll ever want orchestral brass to get. Until you need fff for those special moments.

You don't notice a ceiling - until you bump your head on it! Then it's frustrating.


----------



## NoamL

To @Geoff Grace 's point, the project I'm assisting on had a brass recording session recently and I was surprised by how mellow, rounded, and close-to-horn-like the low brass sounded compared to the distinctly bright CSB trombones. I had got too used to that sound, and perhaps had lost touch with the sound of real brass. The first chair horn, a renowned musician, of course completely blew away the solo horn lines I had synthestrated. We ain't never gonna replace musicians


----------



## jbuhler

Over reading on another forum and see that some like the trombones and dislike the horns. I'm just the opposite. In any case, looking forward to the closer look video on the trombones which will hopefully convince me.


----------



## pderbidge

jbuhler said:


> Over reading on another forum and see that some like the trombones and dislike the horns. I'm just the opposite. In any case, looking forward to the closer look video on the trombones which will hopefully convince me.


As someone who played trombone back in high school, nothing professional by any means, but I would say the only odd sounds I'm noticing is that dynamic range that a trombone typically would not play in an arrangement. The high notes in the beginning would have taken quite a lot out of me to perform and the low notes were waaay lower than anything a trombone player would typically play, so in real life (at least by high school standards ) the trombone would not cover such high and low ground but be more in the middle, which to my ears sounds pretty good. I did notice a bit of a metallic sound that I didn't like but it wasn't too bad and in a mix would probably be less noticeable. Overall, I am glad they gave the instrument the range they did because I'd rather have more than enough range than too little (here's looking at you Tina Guo Legato).


----------



## jbuhler

pderbidge said:


> As someone who played trombone back in high school, nothing professional by any means, but I would say the only odd sounds I'm noticing is that dynamic range that a trombone typically would not play in an arrangement. The high notes in the beginning would have taken quite a lot out of me to perform and the low notes were waaay lower than anything a trombone player would typically play, so in real life (at least by high school standards ) the trombone would not cover such high and low ground but be more in the middle, which to my ears sounds pretty good. I did notice a bit of a metallic sound that I didn't like but it wasn't too bad and in a mix would probably be less noticeable. Overall, I am glad they gave the instrument the range they did because I'd rather have more than enough range than too little (here's looking at you Tina Guo Legato).


Old trombone player myself, though I haven’t touched the instrument in decades. Maybe I was distracted by the extreme registers. (I agree completely that it’s nice they covered the range.) But the usual register sounded to me generically brass. I am most interested in hearing the trombones and the horns side by side to alleviate my concerns. (Or maybe when I get back to my rig I’ll isolate that chunk of Guy’s file and find something similar in one of the horn demonstrations.)


----------



## pderbidge

jbuhler said:


> Old trombone player myself, though I haven’t touched the instrument in decades. Maybe I was distracted by the extreme registers. (I agree completely that it’s nice they covered the range.) But the usual register sounded to me generically brass. I am most interested in hearing the trombones and the horns side by side to alleviate my concerns. (Or maybe when I get back to my rig I’ll isolate that chunk of Guy’s file and find something similar in one of the horn demonstrations.)


I know I was distracted by the extreme registers at first but when I went back and listened to the middle part over and over I found the tone to be pretty pleasing, but like you I have not played in decades so I have no real world frame of reference.


----------



## Guy Rowland

It's taken me a while to figure this out, but what is labelled as "Trombones" is not a hybrid of Altos, Tenors and Basses to stretch the range, but must in fact be pure Tenor Trombones, with the pitch extremes extended by stretching the samples. So in addition to the Trombones I did a quick demo on, there are additional patches for 1x Alto Trombones, and 2x Bass Trombones. So all in, you have 2 different Trumpet patches featuring Bb, C and Piccolo, 2 different horns patches covering 8 horns in total, plus separate Alto, Bass and Tenor Trombones patches, Cimbassi, Tuba, Euphonium and Flugelhorn. PLUS the Intuition series.

Its a beast. A beastly beast.


----------



## Eptesicus

Ooo i hadn't realised they had done a trumpet video as well. Sounding good!


----------



## Geoff Grace

Guy Rowland said:


> It's a busy few weeks so bear with me!


I have it on good authority that by far the easiest way to write a tune is by using dogs, so things may go more smoothly if you enlist their help. (Source)

Seriously though, thanks as usual for your examples, *Guy*. They're always very helpful. Looking forward to more!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## sinkd

Guy Rowland said:


> Its a beast. A beastly beast.



Aye.


----------



## wbacer

Lot's of layers to this library. It's going to take a while to figure out how to best use it. Anyway, you've got to start somewhere...


----------



## Sean

As a euphonium player I don't love the euphonium, it doesn't sound great, but euphs often get overlooked anyways, I doubt it got as much attention as trumpets/horns/etc


----------



## ProfoundSilence

A user on the sound board posted this one(they gave permission in the thread that examples can be cross posted here):

I like the trombones here, and despite some strange rhythmic choices - the brass does sound very cohesive here. Although not quite as thick and warm as teldex - I think the space seems real.(And ofcourse it's nice to hear a more mp-mf demo)

*I downloaded the file and uploaded it here for convenience, but if for any reason that user wants me to remove it - simply private message me*

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/msbaltiverb-mp3.19659/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Lode_Runner

Sean said:


> As a euphonium player I don't love the euphonium, it doesn't sound great, but euphs often get overlooked anyways, I doubt it got as much attention as trumpets/horns/etc


It will be a shame if they cut any corners on the Euphonium as that's one of the elements that makes this library stand out from the competition for me. I will have to wait to see how it sounds in the relevant Closer Look video when it's up. I wasn't sold on the trumpets or horns until they did their closer look videos for them, so I'm reserving my judgement on the other instruments until the upcoming videos are posted.


----------



## Sean

Lode_Runner said:


> It will be a shame if they cut any corners on the Euphonium as that's one of the elements that makes this library stand out from the competition for me. I will have to wait to see how it sounds in the relevant Closer Look video when it's up. I wasn't sold on the trumpets or horns until they did their closer look videos for them, so I'm reserving my judgement on the other instruments until the upcoming videos are posted.


Agreed I'm only currently basing my opinion on stuff that has been posted here so far.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Sean said:


> Agreed I'm only currently basing my opinion on stuff that has been posted here so far.


I have heard some *not so great* examples of many libraries, and some amazing examples of *not so great* libraries.


----------



## jamwerks

Still can't believe they included an Alto Trombone & 2nd Tuba before a Contrebass Trombone! Tuba unison with Contrebass Trombone is instant low-end balls. The bells on the Cimbassi are similar to Tenor Trombones (iinm) and don't really serve the same purpose. Oh well...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> Still can't believe they included an Alto Trombone & 2nd Tuba before a Contrebass Trombone! Tuba unison with Contrebass Trombone is instant low-end balls. The bells on the Cimbassi are similar to Tenor Trombones (iinm) and don't really serve the same purpose. Oh well...



it's a very strange choice - but honestly I'm okay with that. bass trombone and cimbassi cover a lot of ground. Especially considering they sampled so many instruments that haven't been sampled individually to this degree.


----------



## drasticmeasures

In this saga of a thread, I've read some fairly funky statements, and also some smart and educated ones. If you'll all indulge me, I'd like to add my 2 cents as well. You may find them to thoughtful words from experience, or simply a ranting diatribe from a nutcase. (spoiler alert, both are correct!)
Audiobro will be posting a demo from me soon (unless they think it blows), so that will also help you judge whether or not you feel I know what I'm talking about in this post.

MSB is a FANTASTIC brass library, with more real-time playable flexability WHILE still having a good "cleanly recorded" sound than any brass library I've used, and MSB will be the backbone for my brass template going forward. That's not to say that it's a "silver bullet" either. Some of the other libs I've been using will still be there for support, of course, but no other library I know of sounds as close to what I hear in the booth like MSB (read: recorded well and articulate, not polished and mastered). Plenty of libs sound like mix/mastered scores, but now you're "stuck" with that sound, and the seams start to show quickly as you work.
I personally have not found a library with the 'finished mastered' sound that ALSO is a consistantly playable and malleable workhorse from a composition standpoint (such as having musicians is).

I suppose there are two different ways of looking at it:

A - either you want a library where you hit a note and it sounds like soundtrack albums we all know and aspire to, but then when you actually have to write your own music you can't go far with it and it will quickly show it seams.
B - Or you want a library that takes some skill and setup, but can be used for any score in any style, and it's up to YOU to have to chops to know exactly how you want to write and produce it.

For me, MSB kinda strategically strattles the middle, but leans closer to B - Which I love.

I think a common misconception is that when you get a big live orchestra in a nice space, you set some mics up, record the performance, and now you're done! yeah, no.
Even in that ideal situation, there's a TON of really intricate (and interesting!) tricks with routing, side-chaining, stem-swaping, reverb tickling (read: NOT set-and-forget) yada yada, that goes into getting a great 'sound'. ESPECIALLY with scores in the last 15 years.

If you want to midistrate like a beast, it's not going to happen cause you bought ANY specific sample library. I know mockups from 15 years ago done with shit libraries (by today's standards) that still don't have many rivals to this day. The real answer is this: Know what you want to do, and know your shit. Know how to write and arrange EXACTLY how YOU want, and then know how to produce EXACTLY how you want. Trust me, there is no university, academy course, Masterclass, etc, that can do for you what getting in the trenches learning what you want and what process that actually requires will do for you. It's not an easy road, for sure, but it's definitely more rewarding. (And, on deadlines, learn to know instinctively when "90% right" is when it's time to move on to the next cue).

If your a professional composer, or midistrator, whatever, the choice between A and B is easy - buy everything and make your own jambalaya.
If that's not an option for you, then yes, you'll need to make choices that have tradeoffs on your approach/workflow. Both Pizza and Cheeseburgers are awesome, but you won't find them at the same restaurant, and if you do, you know it's going to be SHIT. If you REALLY want both Pizza and Cheeseburgers, and you want it to be really good, then learn your way around a kitchen, cause that's the only way it's gunna happen in a single meal. You dig?

IMO, MSB will require some time and setup to use it to it's potential - It's so flexible that I spent more set-up time implementing it than any other commercial library I've used yet. I spent the time to learn how I would use the lib, and programmed a majority of a Behringer X-touch to control any and all midi CCs for MSB. All attack options are toggled via buttons, and every single anything that is assignable to CC has been assigned so I can touch/perform it in real-time. Every. Single. One.
I set up my template so that MSB is routed through something like 6 different aux's that also have sends to other buses, yada yada. Getting mockups to sound great with any combo of libraries is a whole thing, man. With MSB, once you have it down, it's as fast to work with as any other library, but (IMO) much less frustrating to get it to sound really solid.

At the end of the day, I'll say this: on a action movie, I'll start my brass writing with MSB, on an intimate drama, I'd start my brass writing with MSB.

PS - I think the two demos that Audiobro posted are pretty damn good, while sounding quite a bit different (I think anyway) to what I turned in, both compositionally and sonically. To me, that's a pretty cool strength for a library.

I always find audio demos for sample libraries difficult to evaluate; it can be challenging to know what the skill-set/tool-set ratio is. SO, if any of you hear my demo and want to know anything about it, PM me and I’ll post and answer it publicaly with as specific a answer as possible. Not that I think it would be anything mind-blowing, but then you’ll be able to evaluate what the library IS vs. what I DID with it.
Alternatively, if you think it sucks, feel free to PM and tell me how much I stink. All are welcome! So...there ya go.

Also, I could spend a whole day getting into that Star Wars "demo", and why it's always a terrible idea to do sample demos using iconic scores that cost millions to produce and utilized the talent of only the best of the best on earth, but I don't have the energy to get into that...


----------



## Guy Rowland

Great post, Nathan.

Picking up on a couple of other points from others, I think someone here commented on my Flugelhorn on-the-fly demo as having too much vibrato which wasn't natural for an orchestral piece. Two points on that - first the vibrato is of course optional, secondly I'm a HUGE fan of the Flugelhorn and Euphonium in general and for me they're both going to get some particular love for classic brass band stuff, which imo DOES use vibrato. That's why I naturally lent on it. On vibrato in general, I think it's needed for the trumpets to get some movement in those chords, I think it sounds great on the solo horns and then the Euphonoium / Flugelhorn for band writing, but for most of the rest of the instruments its not really needed.

Also I think having Bass Trombones, Tenor Trombones, Cimbassi, Euphonium and Tubas makes this among the very best-covered libraries for low end heft. Most of these go down to C1, also, and several are sampled to very nearly this point. Personally I think I'll be able to live without Contrabass Trombones AS WELL.


----------



## remembrance

Is anyone here able to test MSB in combination with MIR PRO? I'm curious if the sounds are mic-ed "in place" (meaning with panning already applied). With MIR PRO I need the sound to be dead center, for it to do its job correctly.

Any input is greatly appreciated!


----------



## Go To 11

Dare I also ask if anyone who has both Cinematic Studio Brass and Modern Scoring Brass could do a comparison..? That seems to be the elephant in this here room.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

remembrance said:


> Is anyone here able to test MSB in combination with MIR PRO? I'm curious if the sounds are mic-ed "in place" (meaning with panning already applied). With MIR PRO I need the sound to be dead center, for it to do its job correctly.
> 
> Any input is greatly appreciated!




I would imagine you could use the mono close and tree.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Go To 11 said:


> Dare I also ask if anyone who has both Cinematic Studio Brass and Modern Scoring Brass could do a comparison..? That seems to be the elephant in this here room.



Not sure it qualifies as the elephant in the room - go back a few pages and you'll find exactly that in one of Duncan Krummel's posts, an A/B between the two.


----------



## Go To 11

Guy Rowland said:


> Not sure it qualifies as the elephant in the room - go back a few pages and you'll find exactly that in one of Duncan Krummel's posts, an A/B between the two.


So sorry, right you are!


----------



## jamwerks

Guy Rowland said:


> Also I think having Bass Trombones, Tenor Trombones, Cimbassi, Euphonium and Tubas makes this among the very best-covered libraries for low end heft. Most of these go down to C1, also, and several are sampled to very nearly this point. Personally I think I'll be able to live without Contrabass Trombones AS WELL.


From the way you worded this, seems you might never have heard a Ctb Bone + Tuba? You can't miss something you don't know!


----------



## Guy Rowland

Post an example Jamwerks!


----------



## jamwerks

If you have Ark 4, Hendrick dedicated a patch to it: Tuba-Ctrb Bone unison + Euphonium 8va. Not for the faint of heart!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Guy Rowland said:


> Not sure it qualifies as the elephant in the room - go back a few pages and you'll find exactly that in one of Duncan Krummel's posts, an A/B between the two.


Additionally, Guy offered the insight that "[MSB is] a bit more precise, and while CSB has a beautifully flattering tone MSB more than holds its own, with perhaps a little less aural hype, as it were, a little less artificially big." This seems to be, ignoring workflow and articulations/instruments available, about exactly the right description of these two libraries in comparison. CSB has a warm, open sound that MSB doesn't _out of the box _have (you could definitely achieve that, however). And CSB still offers a good amount of flexibility in terms of ensemble building, by adding solo patches to the a2/a4 patches. I'm also more convinced by the sound of the repetitions in CSB, but I've also yet to try incorporating some of Guy's advice about the trumpets in particular. The legato is more pronounced in CSB, but you do have control over this in MSB. All in all, I think (I _think_) CSB will remain my primary back-bone brass library simply due to its integration with the rest of the Cinematic Studio series, its ease of use, and the quality of the sound (as long as the sound fits, as Nathan pointed out). But MSB covers a lot more ground and for any project allowing of more time, why not get mired in the details a bit?



jamwerks said:


> From the way you worded this, seems you might never have heard a Ctb Bone + Tuba? You can't miss something you don't know!


You may be pleasantly surprised to know that the Bass Trombone patch offers the same range as the Tuba (pedal E + an artificial extension down to C). That extension sounds totally natural too, they did a good job of that.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

to be fair, cinebrass uses btb + tuba and I know Rowland has that. 

this is the patch in question

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/tubaeuphctcb-mp3.19665/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I personally Don't go that low on the tuba - so bass bones work fine for me. Cinbasso covers that territory better for my money.

I've been screen sharing with a friend going through the library - and I'm downloading it  I mostly do more traditional stuff - so the un-hyped sound is perfect for me.


----------



## Guy Rowland

jamwerks said:


> If you have Ark 4, Hendrick dedicated a patch to it: Tuba-Ctrb Bone unison + Euphonium 8va. Not for the faint of heart!



Ah ha, found it here:



Sounds really great. But nothing revolutionary to me, confident that MSB could pull off something similar IMO - I'll add it to the test list. I don't know if anyone else has posted any of the Bass Trombone instrument in MSB, I know I haven't yet - one more for the test list.

And yes indeed ProfoundSilence, I do have that lovely patch. I was wondering if the Contrabassoon added anything over and above (or below?) the Bass trombone and can't say that it's immediately obvious to old cloth-ears here.


----------



## jamwerks

I haven't bought it yet, but of course on the Ctrb bone those aren't pedal-tones and can be played easier and louder. Pretty sure the bell is also a little bigger making it sound less pinched down that low.


----------



## Eptesicus

Go To 11 said:


> Dare I also ask if anyone who has both Cinematic Studio Brass and Modern Scoring Brass could do a comparison..? That seems to be the elephant in this here room.



Its a tricky one this. As long as MSB sounds as good or nearly as good as CSB, for the money MSB is a no brainer.

The amount of instruments and versatility you get in MSB for $200 more is crazy.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I rarely use the contrabass trombone - I prefer the bass trombone in most registers when it comes to the berlin stuff.

I can't wait to explore MSB!

I sent that midi to a friend, and kind of put the ensemble together. Although If you were going to make these "one off patches" to mimic the ark 4 patches - you'd want to fine tune their individual velocity curves and humanization.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/friendition-mp3.19666/][/AUDIOPLUS]

I think its a little overboard with the cuivre on the bass trombone - would have stay mpish to blend like the original patch did.

EDIT: we got it much closer - by sending the original file I made and kind of volume/blend matching the instruments. coincidently - ark is panned almost exactly the opposite - so it kind of works like a weird dark fugue???

not entirely sure of his signal chain for MSB, but I know there is a send to altiverb

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark-4-vs-msb-mp3.19667/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Eptesicus

ProfoundSilence said:


> I rarely use the contrabass trombone - I prefer the bass trombone in most registers when it comes to the berlin stuff.
> 
> I can't wait to explore MSB!
> 
> I sent that midi to a friend, and kind of put the ensemble together. Although If you were going to make these "one off patches" to mimic the ark 4 patches - you'd want to fine tune their individual velocity curves and humanization.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/friendition-mp3.19666/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> I think its a little overboard with the cuivre on the bass trombone - would have stay mpish to blend like the original patch did.
> 
> EDIT: we got it much closer - by sending the original file I made and kind of volume/blend matching the instruments. coincidently - ark is panned almost exactly the opposite - so it kind of works like a weird dark fugue???
> 
> not entirely sure of his signal chain for MSB, but I know there is a send to altiverb
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark-4-vs-msb-mp3.19667/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Which one is which library?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> Which one is which library?



The fact that you have to ask is a good sign. The one that sounds like it's coming from the left is ark 4 - the sound coming more from the right is MSB


----------



## holywilly

I’m curious about how low brass perform, so far I’m sold to Horns & trumpets!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Here's another CSB comparison, but also combined. A little less successful trying to work with MSB here, I think. I really wish there were a way to change the depth control presets for all instances at once, but that may be beyond what Kontakt can handle. It may also be interesting to run a demo using only VSS2, similarly to MIR. May be an easier, if not more limited, way of achieving a good seating/depth.









VI Post #939


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Edit: Should have clarified this point, no processing other than level matching with Ozone's Maximizer (unless you count MSB's depth control as processing).

Edit 2: Changed dead SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## Robert_G

Eptesicus said:


> The amount of instruments and versatility you get in MSB for $200 more is crazy.



Not entirely true as pretty much anyone with CSB has CSS so they bought it at 279 making MSB almost double


----------



## jamwerks

ProfoundSilence said:


> The fact that you have to ask is a good sign.


Thanks for putting up that example. Not sure he his was asking because he couldn't tell the two apart.

Brass instruments sound very interesting when doubled. Mahler and others used 8 horns mainly for 4 part writing with 2 per part. We all know and love the sound of 2 or 3 unison trumpets. You still hear the 3 individuals. At 5 or more you can't really distinguish the individuals, and for brass that's not always pleasing, although big horn ensembles sound interesting.

Even way down low doubled brass sounds interesting. Tuba+Contrabassoon was common in the Romantic period, but Stavinsky had double tubas at times in "The Rite of Spring".

Cimbassi are really tenor instruments, like the standard tenor trombone. The Bass trombone is really a tenor with a bigger bell, thus the low pedal tones sound better. Pedal tones on a tenor don't sound very interesting imo.

The real bass instrument of the trombone family is the Contrebass Trombone, having about the range of the Tuba. Even the very low tuba notes don't translate that well, but work starting around about the E. And sound quite interesting doubled by not its same timbre, but a Contrabassoon, or a Ctrb Bone. And notes that low (on any instrument) need the octave above to really "bloom" thus the Tuba + Ctrb Bone + Euphonium 8va patch.

Anyway, MSB seems to be the best going so far. It'll be interesting to see what Junkie & OT come up with!


----------



## stfciu

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here's another CSB comparison, but also combined. A little less successful trying to work with MSB here, I think. I really wish there were a way to change the depth control presets for all instances at once, but that may be beyond what Kontakt can handle. It may also be interesting to run a demo using only VSS2, similarly to MIR. May be an easier, if not more limited, way of achieving a good seating/depth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Should have clarified this point, no processing other than level matching with Ozone's Maximizer (unless you count MSB's depth control as processing).




My feeling the MSB lacks some upper dynamics (bite) compared to CSB in the example. Was that on purpose?

Anyway the new videos make this library much more promising.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

stfciu said:


> My feeling the MSB lacks some upper dynamics (bite) compared to CSB in the example. Was that on purpose?
> 
> Anyway the new videos make this library much more promising.


I think this at least partly has to do with an increased dynamic range on MSB, and the addition of the sizzle control, which really adds to the bite. I could probably match that bite to CSB a bit more by having the sizzle control linked to the dynamics, but I just set it per instrument in this example. As a whole, though, CSB is generally louder and roomier than MSB by default.


----------



## axb312

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here's another CSB comparison, but also combined. A little less successful trying to work with MSB here, I think. I really wish there were a way to change the depth control presets for all instances at once, but that may be beyond what Kontakt can handle. It may also be interesting to run a demo using only VSS2, similarly to MIR. May be an easier, if not more limited, way of achieving a good seating/depth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Should have clarified this point, no processing other than level matching with Ozone's Maximizer (unless you count MSB's depth control as processing).




CSB Sounds awesome here. MSB a little woodwindy? Also low mids seem to be getting in the way at times...


----------



## jneebz

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here's another CSB comparison, but also combined. A little less successful trying to work with MSB here, I think. I really wish there were a way to change the depth control presets for all instances at once, but that may be beyond what Kontakt can handle. It may also be interesting to run a demo using only VSS2, similarly to MIR. May be an easier, if not more limited, way of achieving a good seating/depth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Should have clarified this point, no processing other than level matching with Ozone's Maximizer (unless you count MSB's depth control as processing).



Just to clarify...you used the same MIDI and CC data in these examples?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

jneebz said:


> Just to clarify...you used the same MIDI and CC data in these examples?


Moved the CC data around for MSB, in some cases redrew it entirely. Used the sforzando crescendos for MSB, so the midi data here was completely overwritten to allow that. I think one aspect that could help here is working more directly with the attack settings and depth control presets. I wish there were a good description of each preset’s sound, but to my knowledge there isn’t any out there.

I should also add the reason I started with CSB is that I’m finding MSB a little more difficult to work with initially. No doubt this is largely in part due to the learning curve and that I’m coming from a workflow built around the Cinematic Studio Series, but I think the level of control required here to get a great result isn’t as playable as CSB. Setting up TouchOSC profiles or using a program similar might be the ultimate answer to this.


----------



## jneebz

Duncan Krummel said:


> Moved the CC data around for MSB, in some cases redrew it entirely. Used the sforzando crescendos for MSB, so the midi data here was completely overwritten to allow that. I think one aspect that could help here is working more directly with the attack settings and depth control presets. I wish there were a good description of each preset’s sound, but to my knowledge there isn’t any out there.


OK thanks. Yeah I can see by the audio waveform alone that MSB didn't achieve the same dynamic level, and for some reason has that phase-y sound I've heard in earlier user demos. The general placement of the instruments is whacky in the MSB demo. In my studio, the stereo field is heavy to the left...or maybe everything is reversed. Any idea why that is happening?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

jneebz said:


> The general placement of the instruments is whacky in the MSB demo. In my studio, the stereo field is heavy to the left...or maybe everything is reversed. Any idea why that is happening?


Can’t offer an extremely scientific explanation, but I find the depth control to pan more aggressively than I’d expect. Or, perhaps it’s that the width of each instrument is narrower than I’d have expected so panning places the instruments more aggressively across a stereo space. Another reason I’m hoping to experiment with VSS2 next chance I get. Using that may offer a more intuitive approach to creating an in-situ arrangement, especially since that offers both a convenient space to see all instruments at once, and offers template overlays of standard orchestral arrangements.


----------



## Eptesicus

Robert_G said:


> Not entirely true as pretty much anyone with CSB has CSS so they bought it at 279 making MSB almost double



True, even so, the content is a HUGE amount greater in MSB.


----------



## NoamL

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here's another CSB comparison, but also combined. A little less successful trying to work with MSB here, I think. I really wish there were a way to change the depth control presets for all instances at once, but that may be beyond what Kontakt can handle. It may also be interesting to run a demo using only VSS2, similarly to MIR. May be an easier, if not more limited, way of achieving a good seating/depth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Should have clarified this point, no processing other than level matching with Ozone's Maximizer (unless you count MSB's depth control as processing).




Keeping in mind that both could use some more MIDI processing, my immediate thought is that MSB succeeds better than CSB at sounding like an ensemble of 8-11 different musicians but it lacks dynamics in comparison to CSB and the trumpet shorts really don't feel as musical. 

I'm increasingly of divided mind about MSB, there are demos that sound much better than CSB at particular writing tasks or particular instruments, and then there are other things it seems to do worse.

BTW Nathan makes a good point about MSB being more dry and flexible out of the box but you can remix ANY library, even one that already sounds mastered.


----------



## NoamL

I'm gonna repost my CSB demo one more time  just want to see if anyone with MSB wants to take a crack at it??



As someone pointed out earlier, it's not a super realistic orchestration as the trumpets could not play for that long. But the point is to demo the dynamic crossfades in long and short articulations and the total dynamic range.

MIDI attached below.


----------



## Mucusman

On behalf of everyone who, like me, is still on the fence, thank you to all who are posting examples and answering questions. They are very helpful. 

It'll either be CSB or MSB for me, but I simply can't afford both. Audiobro got me to wait until now to hold off on purchasing CSB with their pre-emptive announcement. I'm seeing and hearing pros and cons for each library. I can't ignore that CSB appears to be more straightforward and easier to use, and since time is valuable, this is a huge plus. Spending lots of time getting seriously "under the hood" with MSB is probably something I just wouldn't do, knowing me.

I'm still paying close attention to everyone's contributions and questions. Thanks for helping being part of the answer for what will best work for _me_.


----------



## jbuhler

My concern with MSB is not the sound or even the learning curve, but the practicalities of using it once you've learned it. Once you know the ins and outs, can you work with it as quickly as another library or do you constantly have to fiddle with lots of parameters to get a good performance. I was reassured to some extent by the two closer look videos, but some comments from users suggest that the library might require more regular intervention. Those of you who have it, what's your sense?


----------



## Geoff Grace

Mucusman said:


> It'll either be CSB or MSB for me, but I simply can't afford both. Audiobro got me to wait until now to hold off on purchasing CSB with their pre-emptive announcement.


I know that a number of us are in that boat, so I can understand the desire to compare the two libraries. That said, it seems to me that the more direct competitor for Modern Scoring Brass is the venerable Hollywood Brass. For example, how many times have we read something similar from Hollywood Orchestra library users to *Nathan*'s comments below?



Nathan Furst said:


> IMO, MSB will require some time and setup to use it to it's potential - It's so flexible that I spent more set-up time implementing it than any other commercial library I've used yet.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> But once you have it down, it's as fast to work with as any other library, but (IMO) much less frustrating to get it to sound really solid.


So for me, personally, I'm just as interested in MSB comparisons with HB as I am in reading the CSB vs MSB ones.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Once more with VSS2 and a bit of Spaces II So. Cal Brass. I think I like the placing of instruments here better than the depth control, at least right now.



Geoff Grace said:


> So for me, personally, I'm just as interested in MSB comparisons with HB as I am in reading the CSB vs MSB ones.


Ask and ye shall receive!









VI Post #955


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Edit: Changed dead SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

jbuhler said:


> My concern with MSB is not the sound or even the learning curve, but the practicalities of using it once you've learned it. Once you know the ins and outs, can you work with it as quickly as another library or do you constantly have to fiddle with lots of parameters to get a good performance. I was reassured to some extent by the two closer look videos, but some comments from users suggest that the library might require more regular intervention. Those of you who have it, what's your sense?


Personally, it is :
set it once, then it is just as fast to get going with it than with any other comparable libraries.


----------



## Robert_G

Geoff Grace said:


> I know that a number of us are in that boat, so I can understand the desire to compare the two libraries. That said, it seems to me that the more direct competitor for Modern Scoring Brass is the venerable Hollywood Brass. For example, how many times have we read something similar from Hollywood Orchestra library users to *Nathan*'s comments below?
> 
> 
> So for me, personally, I'm just as interested in MSB comparisons with HB as I am in reading the CSB vs MSB ones.
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's input.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



HW brass sounds really nice but like pretty much all EW libraries....its the lack of KS patches or master patches that turn me off. 

MSB and CSB are both more attractive for these reasons.

Heck....even NI symphony series does a better job than EW when it comes to master patches


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Geoff Grace said:


> That said, it seems to me that the more direct competitor for Modern Scoring Brass is the venerable Hollywood Brass. For example, how many times have we read something similar from Hollywood Orchestra library users to *Nathan*'s comments below?
> So for me, personally, I'm just as interested in MSB comparisons with HB as I am in reading the CSB vs MSB ones.
> Thanks again for everyone's input.
> Best,
> Geoff


I also own HB:
There is no way the two compare or are in the same league.
HB doesn't have the line shaping abilities or flexibility of MSB
MSB is a real next generation.
HB was great when it came out and still offer some very nice instruments.....


----------



## axb312

Duncan Krummel said:


> Once more with VSS2 and a bit of Spaces II So. Cal Brass. I think I like the placing of instruments here better than the depth control, at least right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ask and ye shall receive!




MSB #2 VSS2/Spaces II - Panning seems to have been reversed at spots there.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

NoamL said:


> I'm gonna repost my CSB demo one more time  just want to see if anyone with MSB wants to take a crack at it??











NoamL MSB.wav


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Messed with it a bit, so not a simple drop and bounce. Still coming to terms with the dynamic scaling of MSB. CSB growls a bit more a bit sooner, even with the dynamics curve of MSB set more aggressively.



axb312 said:


> MSB #2 VSS2/Spaces II - Panning seems to have been reversed at spots there.


Not quite sure I'm hearing it, are there specific areas it sounds reverse panned?

Edit: Foiled by the acronyms; you're referring to the first MSB Diddy #2 example I posted? In which case, yes, the panning was changed from a semi-circle seating arrangement to a standard orchestral in-situ position. In hindsight I should have done this with the first example too, but I didn't.

Edit 2: Changed dead SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## NoamL

Oh watch out that those horn and trombone octaves are legato! The part that goes Bb3 Ab Bb2 F Bb2 Eb. Sounds like the notes are overlapping in yours.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

NoamL said:


> Oh watch out that those horn and trombone octaves are legato! The part that goes Bb3 Ab Bb2 F Bb2 Eb. Sounds like the notes are overlapping in yours.



Ah, you’re right! I forget to fix that for the auto-divisi every time. I am so used to monophonic legato behavior.

Edit: replaced the file with a correct legato version in the above post.


----------



## Pontus Rufelt

I'm surprised that there's not more discussion about the Intuition patches, those are to me some of the most interesting aspects of the library together with the variable attack on the regular legatos and sustains. They even have breath controller and ROLI presets for the intuition patches which are definitely intriguing.

This is a really sloppy example of intuition stuff together with a CSB tuba and a tiny bit of CSB solo trumpet layered in with an intuition trumpet. A sloppy example as I mentioned, but just to showcase that there's some really cool possibilities in expression in this library.


----------



## AllanH

Pontus Rufelt said:


> I'm surprised that there's not more discussion about the Intuition patches, those are to me some of the most interesting aspects of the library together with the variable attack on the regular legatos and sustains. They even have breath controller and ROLI presets for the intuition patches which are definitely intriguing.
> []



Would you mind explaining what the Intuition patches are? I do not (yet) have MSB?
Thanks!


----------



## jbuhler

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Personally, it is :
> set it once, then it is just as fast to get going with it than with any other comparable libraries.


Thanks for responding! This is very helpful.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

AllanH said:


> Would you mind explaining what the Intuition patches are? I do not (yet) have MSB?
> Thanks!


They're hybrid sample/modeling patches, where - from what I can understand from the manual - the base is the same sample content from the rest of the library, but with "modeled legato, embouchure pressure, and other dimension of realtime performance without delays."

Here's a quick demo of the exact same MIDI file with the 1st Trumpet and the 1st Intuition Trumpet, both Bb:









VI Post #966


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Edit: Changed dead SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## AllanH

Duncan Krummel said:


> They're hybrid sample/modeling patches, where - from what I can understand from the manual - the base is the same sample content from the rest of the library, but with "modeled legato, embouchure pressure, and other dimension of realtime performance without delays."
> ...


Thank you very much for that effort - truly appreciated. Very interesting; the Intuition Legato transitions sound better to me.


----------



## Eptesicus

The legato is pretty stunning, i have to say (both normal and intuition) ^

Very expressive.


----------



## Eptesicus

Duncan Krummel said:


> Messed with it a bit, so not a simple drop and bounce. Still coming to terms with the dynamic scaling of MSB. CSB growls a bit more a bit sooner, even with the dynamics curve of MSB set more aggressively.
> 
> 
> Not quite sure I'm hearing it, are there specific areas it sounds reverse panned?
> 
> Edit: Foiled by the acronyms; you're referring to the first MSB Diddy #2 example I posted? In which case, yes, the panning was changed from a semi-circle seating arrangement to a standard orchestral in-situ position. In hindsight I should have done this with the first example too, but I didn't.





That MSB effort is pretty much as good as the CSB one, except i think the wrong dynamics/articulations are being used at the end of yours (at the sfz/crescendo bit)


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Eptesicus said:


> That MSB effort is pretty much as good as the CSB one, except i think the wrong dynamics/articulations are being used at the end of yours (at the sfz/crescendo bit)


I didn't mess with the CC data, only how MSB responded to it internally. I imagine the sforzando at the end could be improved by using the actual sfz/cresc articulation, but this was more of a MIDI drop test-case. But the tldr of it is I agree there's a different type of response at the upper end between MSB and CSB.


----------



## soulofsound

Duncan Krummel said:


> I didn't mess with the CC data, only how MSB responded to it internally. I imagine the sforzando at the end could be improved by using the actual sfz/cresc articulation, but this was more of a MIDI drop test-case. But the tldr of it is I agree there's a different type of response at the upper end between MSB and CSB.


You can tweak the velocity curve to have the timbre breakup later or earlier.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

soulofsound said:


> You can tweak the velocity curve to have the timbre breakup later or earlier.


Correct, which I did push to increase how aggressively MSB was responding to the CC1 data, but even then CSB introduces real bite into the sound much earlier. Personally I find MSB's response more realistic, but a bit less playable without some extra tweaking involved. Though the Intuition patches also bite a bit earlier in the sound as well.


----------



## axb312

Duncan Krummel said:


> Messed with it a bit, so not a simple drop and bounce. Still coming to terms with the dynamic scaling of MSB. CSB growls a bit more a bit sooner, even with the dynamics curve of MSB set more aggressively.
> 
> 
> Not quite sure I'm hearing it, are there specific areas it sounds reverse panned?
> 
> Edit: Foiled by the acronyms; you're referring to the first MSB Diddy #2 example I posted? In which case, yes, the panning was changed from a semi-circle seating arrangement to a standard orchestral in-situ position. In hindsight I should have done this with the first example too, but I didn't.




At 0:30 in MSB #2 VSS2/Spaces II, I hear the trumpets coming from the left?


----------



## Vadium

How much velocity layers in MSB?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Comparing Noams Example rendered with CSB and MSB I prefer CSB in that example more. On the other Hand Guys examples posted on the soundboard sounded also good. It seems to boil down when the instrument groups sound "together". It seems for me that CSB has a better sense of room and glue so that the instruments sound together, probably because of that CSB was recorded in situ.


----------



## Eptesicus

Does MSB have more round robins than CSB? Just listening to the fanfare comparison again and i honestly think the MSB trumpets sound more realistic through that repeated short note phrase.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Eptesicus said:


> Does MSB have more round robins than CSB? Just listening to the fanfare comparison again and i honestly think the MSB trumpets sound more realistic through that repeated short note phrase.



there are 9 round robins in msb


----------



## NYC Composer

I don’t get to use horns as much as I’d like, but when I do, I like great sound combined with ease of use. I love AudioBro and have full LASS, but I also love Alex Wallbank’s libraries and have a few of those. They’re simpler to use.

Oddly enough, Nathan Furst’s excellent post may have aimed me more at CSB than MSB.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

NYC Composer said:


> I don’t get to use horns as much as I’d like, but when I do, I like great sound combined with ease of use. I love AudioBro and have full LASS, but I also love Alex Wallbank’s libraries and have a few of those. They’re simpler to use.
> 
> Oddly enough, Nathan Furst’s excellent post may have aimed me more at CSB than MSB.


I'm not sure it's possible to make a bad choice with those two. Both are good so choose what will work best for you (which is exactly what you said so I'm going to shut up now).


----------



## mikeh-375

Momentary [email protected] Krummel, some of those 'diddy' harmonies are lovely...almost Messiaen like and just the sort I like to find myself .......nice one.


----------



## Go To 11

Duncan Krummel said:


> Additionally, Guy offered the insight that "[MSB is] a bit more precise, and while CSB has a beautifully flattering tone MSB more than holds its own, with perhaps a little less aural hype, as it were, a little less artificially big." This seems to be, ignoring workflow and articulations/instruments available, about exactly the right description of these two libraries in comparison. CSB has a warm, open sound that MSB doesn't _out of the box _have (you could definitely achieve that, however). And CSB still offers a good amount of flexibility in terms of ensemble building, by adding solo patches to the a2/a4 patches. I'm also more convinced by the sound of the repetitions in CSB, but I've also yet to try incorporating some of Guy's advice about the trumpets in particular. The legato is more pronounced in CSB, but you do have control over this in MSB. All in all, I think (I _think_) CSB will remain my primary back-bone brass library simply due to its integration with the rest of the Cinematic Studio series, its ease of use, and the quality of the sound (as long as the sound fits, as Nathan pointed out). But MSB covers a lot more ground and for any project allowing of more time, why not get mired in the details a bit?
> 
> 
> You may be pleasantly surprised to know that the Bass Trombone patch offers the same range as the Tuba (pedal E + an artificial extension down to C). That extension sounds totally natural too, they did a good job of that.


I'd like to pick you up on the idea of matching MSB to CSB. So far, I still prefer the sound of CSB, but given that you have both, how would you go about getting MSB to have that full, roomy sound that CSB has right out of the box? Do you think you'll get there if you spend a bit more time with spacing and reverbs? How is the MSB stage tool? It seemed pretty great in Genesis. I'd love more examples from you regarding the spacing presets that they offer, if possible. Thanks!


----------



## Go To 11

Muted trumpets are up!


----------



## drasticmeasures

Just took a second listen to the two demos posted, and they’re pretty killer. If I was casually listening (not focused dissecting) to Daniel Beijbom’s track I would probably assume it was live.
I think most composers/music producers wouldn’t question it, let alone muggles. And if it was in a final show mix? Forget it.

I’m trying to figure out the mindset of peeps who would complain about these demos!


----------



## Guy Rowland

Nathan Furst said:


> Just took a second listen to the two demos posted, and they’re pretty killer. If I was casually listening (not focused dissecting) to Daniel Beijbom’s track I would probably assume it was live.
> I think most composers/music producers wouldn’t question it, let alone muggles. And if it was in a final show mix? Forget it.
> 
> I’m trying to figure out the mindset of peeps who would complain about these demos!



There's a couple of moments I don't love, but the great majority is superb, I agree (and some great writing from Daniel in particular). I hesitate to say this but I think there might be a bit of a feeling from some that it is less aurally hyped than we might have gotten used to.

I've made a start today on adding MSB to my template. It will take a few days in between my other work, I'm making separate longs and shorts patches and its a little time-consuming up front. So far I've added Trumpets, both Horns patches, all 3 trombone patches, Cimbassi and Tuba (still a load of stuff to go... nowhere near halfway really). For fun I stacked it all up at the end and had a blast. And the thing was... it sounded huge, rich, had bite and shifted a ton of air and all that, but it didn't go synthy at all. Usually when you do that and stack like crazy, it's hard to stay realistic. The clarity remained, and so did the realism. The key, I think, is that I had the auto-divisi on, so you never get those absurd numbers of players that don't translate to scale but do translate to artificiality - 4 notes of 12 horns doesn't sound like 48 horns. (I also disabled the on board reverb which I think sounds great on an individual patch actually, and replaced with Seventh Heaven's scoring stage - I think when adding several instruments that de-muddies it a little too).

I think all that is what I hear that I really like in those demos. Lots going on, sounds rich and full, but not hyped.


----------



## Hanu_H

I think some people were expecting another brass library with instant trailer sound. But how I hear MSB, is that it's more realistic and raw, like a real recordings of a brass instruments. It needs to be mixed to sound like a finished product but the magic is, that you are not tied into a certain sound or mix. And with a drier more focused sound, you don't have to write so much for the samples. It's pretty much the same approach as with LASS and I am sure this is going to be my next brass library.


----------



## Robert_G

I love the demos for the most part. It's worth 600 bucks....unfortunately, 600 is too much no matter how good it is....for this hobby guy. If I was composing for a living...I'd have already bought it.


----------



## Noeticus

Nathan Furst said:


> I’m trying to figure out the mindset of peeps who would complain about these demos!



Hello Nathan,

I believe some of the complaints about Audiobro MSB demos is due to hyper-focusing. When the mind tries to find fault it often hears it, even if it is not necessarily there. Our caveman brains can turn the wind howling through the trees into a threat even when there is none.


----------



## dcoscina

Hanu_H said:


> I think some people were expecting another brass library with instant trailer sound. But how I hear MSB, is that it's more realistic and raw, like a real recordings of a brass instruments. It needs to be mixed to sound like a finished product but the magic is, that you are not tied into a certain sound or mix. And with a drier more focused sound, you don't have to write so much for the samples. It's pretty much the same approach as with LASS and I am sure this is going to be my next brass library.


I wouldn't presume. Being a brass player I have pretty high expectations of libraries in this field and to my ears, it just doesn't sound markedly better or improved compared to other ones already on the market. The cut off is the real indicator for me and it sounds artificial. Believe me, I'm a huge AudioBro fan and still use LASS routinely. I don't enjoy typing in my disapproval of libraries and usually don't actually. But I'm a little disappointed in what I've heard thus far... :(


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Go To 11 said:


> I'd like to pick you up on the idea of matching MSB to CSB. So far, I still prefer the sound of CSB, but given that you have both, how would you go about getting MSB to have that full, roomy sound that CSB has right out of the box? Do you think you'll get there if you spend a bit more time with spacing and reverbs? How is the MSB stage tool? It seemed pretty great in Genesis. I'd love more examples from you regarding the spacing presets that they offer, if possible. Thanks!



SO, this may be a bit of an information overload, but I put together another little 1-minute chorale and tried to match the panning of CSB, then ran it with every available depth control preset. Yes, this took a while to upload, and may not actually be as helpful as a written snippet accompanying each preset, but here you go. This also doesn't really attempt to match MSB's ambience to CSB, but finding the right preset may be a good first step. Or just forget about matching CSB's ambience and just find one that sounds good for MSB (I really want to eat my cake too)!









VI Post #989


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Edit: Trying to figure out how to post a Soundcloud Playlist....

Edit 2: Changed dead SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## Guy Rowland

dcoscina said:


> The cut off is the real indicator for me and it sounds artificial.



What to you mean by cut off? Riding the modwheel?  Release triggers?


----------



## Go To 11

Duncan Krummel said:


> SO, this may be a bit of an information overload, but I put together another little 1-minute chorale and tried to match the panning of CSB, then ran it with every available depth control preset. Yes, this took a while to upload, and may not actually be as helpful as a written snippet accompanying each preset, but here you go. This also doesn't really attempt to match MSB's ambience to CSB, but finding the right preset may be a good first step. Or just forget about matching CSB's ambience and just find one that sounds good for MSB (I really want to eat my cake too)!
> 
> HERE
> 
> Edit: Trying to figure out how to post a Soundcloud Playlist....


This is amazing! Such a comprehensive and useful playlist. Beautiful track by the way. The long trumpet notes sound so lovely, and the pauses in the music allow us to hear the reverb tails nicely.

I listened to as many as I could before I started to go insane, thank you. I think you matched the panning really nicely. Perhaps CSB has yet still a touch bit more stereo separation, to my ears? Did you do it within the stage placement tool? Could you share a screenshot of the layout you chose?

66. MSB Brass - Brass Hall sounds really good to me. In fact, I think these examples have tipped my choice in favour of MSB. Thanks!


----------



## Hanu_H

dcoscina said:


> I wouldn't presume. Being a brass player I have pretty high expectations of libraries in this field and to my ears, it just doesn't sound markedly better or improved compared to other ones already on the market. The cut off is the real indicator for me and it sounds artificial. Believe me, I'm a huge AudioBro fan and still use LASS routinely. I don't enjoy typing in my disapproval of libraries and usually don't actually. But I'm a little disappointed in what I've heard thus far... :(


Well that's why I said some people, not everyone. I like it, but I can understand if someone else doesn't. I don't really need a new library, I got so many already. But if I buy one, it has to give me some new tools. I have liked what I've heard but would like to hear more demos as well.


----------



## sinkd

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here's another CSB comparison, but also combined. A little less successful trying to work with MSB here, I think. I really wish there were a way to change the depth control presets for all instances at once, but that may be beyond what Kontakt can handle. It may also be interesting to run a demo using only VSS2, similarly to MIR. May be an easier, if not more limited, way of achieving a good seating/depth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Should have clarified this point, no processing other than level matching with Ozone's Maximizer (unless you count MSB's depth control as processing).



Actually really like the sound of the high trumpets in CSB.


----------



## Go To 11

Duncan Krummel said:


> SO, this may be a bit of an information overload, but I put together another little 1-minute chorale and tried to match the panning of CSB, then ran it with every available depth control preset. Yes, this took a while to upload, and may not actually be as helpful as a written snippet accompanying each preset, but here you go. This also doesn't really attempt to match MSB's ambience to CSB, but finding the right preset may be a good first step. Or just forget about matching CSB's ambience and just find one that sounds good for MSB (I really want to eat my cake too)!
> 
> HERE
> 
> Edit: Trying to figure out how to post a Soundcloud Playlist....



This is officially your fault! Many thanks for all your efforts here so far.


----------



## I like music

Go To 11 said:


> This is officially your fault! Many thanks for all your efforts here so far.



Should we be able to see your serial number in that screenshot?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Go To 11 said:


> This is officially your fault! Many thanks for all your efforts here so far.


 You'll really enjoy it!

As for the stereo separation, I realized about halfway through bouncing files that I could probably match CSB better by widening each part, but at that point I was not about to change course! That said, here's a version with the Brass Hall preset with a quick ear-matched widening of each part:









VI Post #995


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





And ultimately, here are screenshots of the placement I used for each part:

















Edit: Changed dead SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## I like music

I like music said:


> Should we be able to see your serial number in that screenshot?



For clarification, we can't. But it made you look, at least! And also it was partly out of hope that we could


----------



## Go To 11

I like music said:


> Should we be able to see your serial number in that screenshot?


You can't?


----------



## Go To 11

I like music said:


> For clarification, we can't. But it made you look, at least! And also it was partly out of hope that we could


I panicked! Haha phew.


----------



## Go To 11

Duncan Krummel said:


> You'll really enjoy it!
> 
> As for the stereo separation, I realized about halfway through bouncing files that I could probably match CSB better by widening each part, but at that point I was not about to change course! That said, here's a version with the Brass Hall preset with a quick ear-matched widening of each part:
> 
> 
> 
> And ultimately, here are screenshots of the placement I used for each part:



Thank you for sharing it again with the widening. I love it! And for doing it with the Brass Hall preset. I'm flattered. Looking forward to diving in! All the best.


----------



## Mucusman

And the Cimbassos Closer Look video is up.


----------



## Saxer

That sounds fat!


----------



## Guy Rowland

The low end options are ridiculous. The Cimbassos have the baddest bite, with the Tenor Trombones close behind. Bass Trombones are just a little less OTT, with a shade more heft. Both the Euphonium and the Tuba are much smoother and incredibly rich. Spoiled for choice.

I am absolutely not needing a Contrabass Trombone as well.


----------



## Go To 11

Hey all! Do you guys notice anything weird in this test? It's just 3 straight notes in a row. I won't say what sounds weird to me as I don't want to bias the test, but if anything jumps out to you on any of these three notes, let me know. https://www.dropbox.com/s/s74bturyohuw06x/AudioBro Brass Test.wav?dl=0


----------



## Eptesicus

Go To 11 said:


> Hey all! Do you guys notice anything weird in this test? It's just 3 straight notes in a row. I won't say what sounds weird to me as I don't want to bias the test, but if anything jumps out to you on any of these three notes, let me know. https://www.dropbox.com/s/s74bturyohuw06x/AudioBro Brass Test.wav?dl=0



Yes middle (2nd) one has a dodgy artifact of clip.maybe a looping issue?

I would send this to audiobro so they can fix it.

Hope there isn't too much of that sort of thing.


----------



## Go To 11

Eptesicus said:


> Yes middle (2nd) one has a dodgy artifact of clip.maybe a looping issue?
> 
> I would send this to audiobro so they can fix it.
> 
> Hope there isn't too much of that sort of thing.


I thought so too! There's something else I hear, but that might not be fixable. I'll send it over to them.


----------



## Raphioli

wow that cimbasso...


----------



## David Cuny

Nick Batzdorf said:


> As an aside aside, can you use that Yamaha contraption on any USB MIDI output?


Sorry for the late response, I misread your question and thought perhaps you "Yamaha contraption" you might be referring to a Yamaha WX5. 

Yes, the UD-BT01 can work for any USB MIDI device. Although it was apparently designed to work with IOS devices, I've got no problems with it talking to the CME Widi Bud in Windows 10.

Yamaha also has a MD/UD-BT01, which is wireless for non-USB MIDI. I don't know much about that, but it looks like it's the same general thing.

The UD-BT01 needs to be powered, which is why hooking it up to a phone recharger as a power source is necessary. I initially picked up a hefty charger, and the power on it lasts forever. But a smaller, less weighty charger seems to last the 2 hours that I need, so I generally use that.

I'd initially been running the CME Widi Bud software at the start of each gig to couple with the UD-BT01, but it doesn't look like that's a necessary step once it's been paired.

That also means you can swap out battery packs if necessary without having to restart everything.


----------



## Geoff Grace

Audiobro gave us the introductory price before announcing the normal price. Now it's up on their site:

*Sale Price: $599.00
MSRP: $799.00
Savings: $200.00*

Best,

Geoff


----------



## prodigalson

Geoff Grace said:


> Audiobro gave us the introductory price before announcing the normal price. Now it's up on their site:
> 
> *Sale Price: $599.00
> MSRP: $799.00
> Savings: $200.00*
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



It was actually listed in their store on release. I think maybe you had to login to see it?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

David Cuny said:


> Yamaha contraption" you might be referring to a Yamaha WX5



No no, I play an EWI, so I know what a WX is! 

And thanks.


----------



## 5Lives

As a casual hobbyist, CSB sounds wonderful to me - and seems a lot easier to program / use. I have LASS and never use it just because how challenging it is to get a pleasant sound / setup properly compared to CSS and Spitfire stuff. I’m sure that’s a missed opportunity on my part but time is limited and I’d rather work with tools that are faster to use so I continue to enjoy this beautiful hobby


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Have people at audiobro forgot it's spelt Cimbassi for plural? :/


----------



## AllanH

O boy, those Cimbassi are something else. Excellent bite in low range.


----------



## Vadium

Owners of MSB, could you make 2 audio from att. midi files on, for example, 1st Horn Legato instrument? (for calculate MSB velocity layers)
For example, see Berlin Brass Horn Legato results


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

jamwerks said:


> From the way you worded this, seems you might never have heard a Ctb Bone + Tuba? You can't miss something you don't know!



Contrabass Trombone is reasonably similar to Cimbasso. They do have different bore and bell sizes and of course every horn company makes their instruments differently, but generally the audience isn't going to know the difference. Heck they won't even know the difference between Contra and plain old Bass.

Of course in a live recording setting all these instruments have different uses and pro orchestrators will know when to call on what. Cimbassi are more agile since they operate on valves than a slide, but typically your Bass Trombonists will not play the Cimbasso, it's a Tuba double. Contrabass Trombones can also play slide legato _and_ are more free-blowing (more efficient) in their very low range just above the pedal tones, while Cimbassi have to put all their valves down and this makes the horns very stuffy.

There are bigger differences between the subtypes of these horns - but there is no common distinguishing terms for their tunings. While in the world of Tubas we would have a CC pitched "Contrabass Tuba" and an Eb pitched "Bass Tuba" - in the Contrabass Trombone world, an F pitched horn is still a "*Contra*bass Trombone" and _so is the one in BBb_. However the two instruments have vastly different effective ranges and they do have different timbre too, since the lower horns often have larger bore size and larger bell throat, but again a typical movie-goer would be hard-pressed to know the difference between a Trumpet and a Trombone, let alone all these finer details.

However - just for you


----------



## Go To 11

Vadium said:


> Owners of MSB, could you make 2 audio from att. midi files on, for example, 1st Horn Legato instrument? (for calculate MSB velocity layers)
> For example, see Berlin Brass Horn Legato results


I'm happy to do this for you. Trying to interpret the Berlin results - what do the diagrams tell you?


----------



## Go To 11

Vadium said:


> Owners of MSB, could you make 2 audio from att. midi files on, for example, 1st Horn Legato instrument? (for calculate MSB velocity layers)
> For example, see Berlin Brass Horn Legato results


Here you go. I did the CC1-127 patch on the Legato articulation, and I did the 4 note short midi on the 16th note shorts articulation. Is that what you wanted? All reverb disabled. Mix Mic only. Horn 1. Audio and screenshots here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mkvy3k2cmwx3czt/AACUB_xh5zUoMlu2vcr39YBfa?dl=0


----------



## Raphioli

Go To 11 said:


> Here you go. I did the CC1-127 patch on the Legato articulation, and I did the 4 note short midi on the 16th note shorts articulation. Is that what you wanted? All reverb disabled. Mix Mic only. Horn 1. Audio and screenshots here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mkvy3k2cmwx3czt/AACUB_xh5zUoMlu2vcr39YBfa?dl=0



I really like how the UI looks. (I'm curious what those modulations are for. I don't remember seeing that in the video, or maybe I missed it.)


----------



## Vadium

Go To 11 said:


> Is that what you wanted?


Thanks a lot!
Hm, I see and listen to your rendered files and think that MSB has 3 dynamic layers with a deep crossfades. Also, it seems that velocity doesn't matter in short articulations - you can change volume and timbre only by CC1?



Go To 11 said:


> what do the diagrams tell you?


see red comments on the pictures of both BB and MSB - there are 3 crossfaded dynamic layers in both cases (IMHO)


----------



## Raphioli

Vadium said:


> Thanks a lot!
> Hm, I see and listen to your rendered files and think that MSB has 3 velocity layers. Also, it seems that velocity doesn't matter in short articulations - you can change volume and timbre only by CC1?
> 
> 
> see red comments on the pictures of both BB and MSB - there are 3 crossfaded velocity layers in both cases (IMHO)



Didn't know you could see how many dynamic layers are in the patch that way.
Interesting. Good to know!

Thx!


----------



## Vadium

Raphioli said:


> Didn't know you could see how many dynamic layers are in the patch that way.


It's more easier to see on a piano sounds (see att. examples), but quite possible on any kind of sampled instruments)


----------



## Go To 11

Vadium said:


> Thanks a lot!
> Hm, I see and listen to your rendered files and think that MSB has 3 velocity layers. Also, it seems that velocity doesn't matter in short articulations - you can change volume and timbre only by CC1?
> 
> 
> see red comments on the pictures of both BB and MSB - there are 3 crossfaded velocity layers in both cases (IMHO)


Seems like 3 velocity layers to me yeah. I think it's mp, mf, f... Even though it's advertised as ppp-fff. I'm scratching my head over this, and am going to write in and ask about it. So far short articulations seem to be mostly CC but velocity does impact it a bit. Velocity acts as a bit of 20% extra wiggle room within whatever CC you are on. Were you able to make use of the short articulation audio?


----------



## Raphioli

Vadium said:


> It's more easier to see on a piano sounds (see att. examples), but quite possible on any kind of sampled instruments)



Those piano examples were much more easier to spot. Thx


----------



## Vadium

Go To 11 said:


> Were you able to make use of the short articulation audio?


I uploaded a short articulation picture in a previous post too. Is Legato articulation has the same result on velocity changes?


----------



## driscollmusick

A rough draft of a Brahms orchestration. I swapped out Spitfire Symphonic Brass for MSB and I was pretty happy with the results so far (haven't done any sonic tweaking, though still need to work on the mix, etc). IMO, it sits pretty well out of the box with the rest of the Spitfire Symphonic libraries...


----------



## Guy Rowland

Vadium said:


> it seems that velocity doesn't matter in short articulations - you can change volume and timbre only by CC1?



No, you have three options there - CC, key velocity or 50/50 of each. It's a shame that one patch can't mix and match these - I much prefer key velocity for shorts, and CC for longs - but you can build Longs and Shorts patches that respond in those two different ways with a little time and patience.

One thing that's been little discussed - how have Audiobro made transitions between dynamic layers so good? When CHH did this, they phase-aligned the signals, but that has a detrimental affect on the overall sound, making it sterile. I hear none of that in MSB, but also no chorusing effect you usually get on these solo transitions. All of which is critical of course as the whole paradigm of the library is to make ensembles from solo instruments. What is this witchcraft?!


----------



## Guy Rowland

driscollmusick said:


> A rough draft of a Brahms orchestration. I swapped out Spitfire Symphonic Brass for MSB and I was pretty happy with the results so far (haven't done any sonic tweaking, though still need to work on the mix, etc). IMO, it sits pretty well out of the box with the rest of the Spitfire Symphonic libraries...




Very impressive! How far samples have come.

It's a strange thing, I hear moments which are just breathtaking, and then something catches your ear and the illusion goes. In general the high strings feel like the weakest spot. Brass is mostly very good, but a few lower dynamic moments don't feel quite right yet. FWIW the issues there feel more about articulations and CCs than mix to me, the mix sounds pretty darn good.

Very well done, must have been a lot of hard work.


----------



## Dave Connor

driscollmusick said:


> A rough draft of a Brahms orchestration.


 No idea what you mean by that. A Brahms piece that _you_ orchestrated? Brahms wrote and orchestrated? Does the piece have a title?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dave Connor said:


> No idea what you mean by that. A Brahms piece that _you_ orchestrated? Brahms wrote and orchestrated? Does the piece have a title?


I'm pretty sure he just means a rough mock up.


----------



## driscollmusick

Dave Connor said:


> No idea what you mean by that. A Brahms piece that _you_ orchestrated? Brahms wrote and orchestrated? Does the piece have a title?


It's my orchestration of a movement Brahms wrote for piano quartet, Op. 60 (see below). Not sure if I want to take on the full piece or just leave it as a standalone...


----------



## driscollmusick

Guy Rowland said:


> Very impressive! How far samples have come.
> 
> It's a strange thing, I hear moments which are just breathtaking, and then something catches your ear and the illusion goes. In general the high strings feel like the weakest spot. Brass is mostly very good, but a few lower dynamic moments don't feel quite right yet. FWIW the issues there feel more about articulations and CCs than mix to me, the mix sounds pretty darn good.
> 
> Very well done, must have been a lot of hard work.


Thanks, Guy. Yeah it does still need tweaking!


----------



## Dave Connor

driscollmusick said:


> It's my orchestration of a movement Brahms wrote for piano quartet, Op. 60


 Thanks. Nice job on that. I thought it might be a smaller piece put into a full orchestra. Quite a challlenge to take on. One of the better demos of MSB as well.


----------



## driscollmusick

Dave Connor said:


> Thanks. Nice job on that. I thought it might be a smaller piece put into a full. Quite a challlenge to take on. One of the better demos of MSB as well.


Thanks, Dave


----------



## Noeticus

Also...

https://audiobro.com/installing-modern-scoring-brass/


----------



## Batrawi

Wow, installation closer look... This library is extremely installable!


----------



## Steve Martin

driscollmusick said:


> A rough draft of a Brahms orchestration. I swapped out Spitfire Symphonic Brass for MSB and I was pretty happy with the results so far (haven't done any sonic tweaking, though still need to work on the mix, etc). IMO, it sits pretty well out of the box with the rest of the Spitfire Symphonic libraries...



I really like this! Thanks for sharing


----------



## Eptesicus

Batrawi said:


> Wow, installation closer look... This library is extremely installable!



Haha, this made me smile.


----------



## Eptesicus

It's all gone a bit quiet.

I'm not buying until there are more than two demos. Would also be good to have the closer look videos for trombone/bass trombone and tuba.


----------



## Guy Rowland

For me I've spent the last week or so when I have any spare time getting it into the template. That's been quite a lot of work because I've wanted to separate all the articulations into two different patches for each instrument - longs and shorts. That's all now done and dusted - some phenomenal number of instruments. This is where VE Pro disabled template comes into its own.

On Saturday I used it for my first piece in anger, which I'm afraid I can't yet post publicly as its for a future project. The piece already existed with CineBrass, but I wanted it to sound much more vintage, a kind of 40s / 50s war movie feel, and CB felt too glossy, with the baked in room not sounding to the right period. So I replaced all the brass with MSB, and was delighted with the results.

In a sense, no dramatic revelations as it more or less confirmed what I already knew. The library sounds fantastic, and absolutely avoids the sampled build up of too many players. It is MUCH more precise to work with - I had to adjust the midi a lot simply because CB masked all my atrotious playing, which MSB rather mercilessly exposed, and naturally there were some new key-switching and dynamics to figure out. And of course it was a breeze to add a much shorter reverb tail than I usually use. Swapped out a few more instruments in the piece so there was nothing left of the modern big sound, put it through all the vintage effects and job done.

I also used it on a collab piece yesterday, but it was predominately strings and there was only a couple of brass parts so hardly serves as a showcase. Horns sounded wonderful, but the solo trumpet didn't suit this one as it had to be very mellow and emotive. As I so often do with that requirement, I went right back to the 1.0 Core Solo Trumpet CB patch.


----------



## driscollmusick

Guy Rowland said:


> For me I've spent the last week or so when I have any spare time getting it into the template. That's been quite a lot of work because I've wanted to separate all the articulations into two different patches for each instrument - longs and shorts. That's all now done and dusted - some phenomenal number of instruments. This is where VE Pro disabled template comes into its own.
> 
> On Saturday I used it for my first piece in anger, which I'm afraid I can't yet post publicly as its for a future project. The piece already existed with CineBrass, but I wanted it to sound much more vintage, a kind of 40s / 50s war movie feel, and CB felt too glossy, with the baked in room not sounding to the right period. So I replaced all the brass with MSB, and was delighted with the results.
> 
> In a sense, no dramatic revelations as it more or less confirmed what I already knew. The library sounds fantastic, and absolutely avoids the sampled build up of too many players. It is MUCH more precise to work with - I had to adjust the midi a lot simply because CB masked all my atrotious playing, which MSB rather mercilessly exposed, and naturally there were some new key-switching and dynamics to figure out. And of course it was a breeze to add a much shorter reverb tail than I usually use. Swapped out a few more instruments in the piece so there was nothing left of the modern big sound, put it through all the vintage effects and job done.
> 
> I also used it on a collab piece yesterday, but it was predominately strings and there was only a couple of brass parts so hardly serves as a showcase. Horns sounded wonderful, but the solo trumpet didn't suit this one as it had to be very mellow and emotive. As I so often do with that requirement, I went right back to the 1.0 Core Solo Trumpet CB patch.



Surely this wasn't your "first piece in anger"!


----------



## Mucusman

I took the plunge and purchased MSB. 

It is a beast. Not only are there many instruments, and the inclusion of the "Intuition Series" instruments (which are delightful to play and sound great), but basically every single element/setting is configurable. 

I've started working my way through the manual and trying out each feature/function... there is a LOT in here.

I'm providing two quick samples of elements I don't recall being presented thus far. 

First, here is a comparison on a trumpets tutti line using different legato speed settings (slow, medium -- this is the default, and fast... in that order):



Second, for fun, here is what it sounds like using trumpet trills while activating the detuning knob. Getting this involves all of two buttons. There aren't just trills (and two types: whole tone and half tone), but different lengths of trills (short, medium, long, and loop). In the brief sample below I believe all are demonstrated except the medium trills). Again, all with detune activated at about 40% strength:



The amount of control and flexibility available is staggering. In short, this is a library that I'll grow into.


----------



## geronimo

Is it possible to control the speed of this thrill ?


----------



## Mucusman

geronimo said:


> Is it possible to control the speed of this thrill ?



Absolutely. There are some options to select from (1x speed, 2x speed, and 1/2 speed), but beyond this there is a knob that allows you to choose the exact speed you'd like.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Nice illustrations, Mucusman!



driscollmusick said:


> Surely this wasn't your "first piece in anger"!



Fair dos. I'm usually absolutely furious when composing, to be fair.


----------



## soulofsound

Mucusman said:


> Second, for fun, here is what it sounds like using trumpet trills while activating the detuning knob. Getting this involves all of two buttons. There aren't just trills (and two types: whole tone and half tone), but different lengths of trills (short, medium, long, and loop). In the brief sample below I believe all are demonstrated except the medium trills). Again, all with detune activated at about 40% strength:
> 
> 
> 
> The amount of control and flexibility available is staggering. In short, this is a library that I'll grow into.




Using detune is actually a very good way to induce more realism in this sample library. MSB takes it really well, i think. The Intuition instruments do, too. Nice examples.


----------



## artinro

Mucusman said:


>




Mucusman, this was very interesting. Would you consider doing that same "legato speed test" with some of the other instrument sections or solos?


----------



## Lassi Tani

Still on the fence. Waiting for more demos and videos.


----------



## holywilly

Now I’m a proud owner of MSB and I love it!


----------



## LHall

I will be getting MSB in the next few days. Huge fan/user of LASS since it came out. 

I'm curious if any of the current owners have tried using a breath controller yet? I love using it for all the brass and wind instruments I do. Hoping it's intuitive for MSB.


----------



## Mucusman

artinro said:


> Mucusman, this was very interesting. Would you consider doing that same "legato speed test" with some of the other instrument sections or solos?



Here you go.

First is a solo flugelhorn. Four times (same performance each time): 1st time: legato speed dial at 50% (I played it at this setting), 2nd time at fastest (100%), 3rd time at slowest (0%), and the 4th time I manually edited the legato speed (picture below). You can hear, in the slowest example (3rd), that it is too slow for the faster transitions. What I'm learning is how subtle adjustments in this setting alone help in making a performance that much more lifelike and musical.









Final two examples are from the trombones. First are two trombones, the second file is of a solo trombone. The legato settings in each go from (1) slowest, (2) medium, and (3) fastest, to finally a manually edited section using all three speeds, to my taste.



And the solo trombone. Note, this is the exact same MIDI performance; I made no edits in the content from the two trombone file. More of a comparison of tone.



I left all the warts in, to help demonstrate where things can go wrong. All effects and other MSB settings are at their default. No external or additional processing or effects. Effectively, this is out of the box sound. I didn't adjust any of the starting attacks... which would be an additional element towards realism. But this shows me the value to slowly understanding how each of these variables affect the sound.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## artinro

Mucusman said:


> Here you go.
> 
> First is a solo flugelhorn. Four times (same performance each time): 1st time: legato speed dial at 50% (I played it at this setting), 2nd time at fastest (100%), 3rd time at slowest (0%), and the 4th time I manually edited the legato speed (picture below). You can hear, in the slowest example (3rd), that it is too slow for the faster transitions. What I'm learning is how subtle adjustments in this setting alone help in making a performance that much more lifelike and musical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Final two examples are from the trombones. First are two trombones, the second file is of a solo trombone. The legato settings in each go from (1) slowest, (2) medium, and (3) fastest, to finally a manually edited section using all three speeds, to my taste.
> 
> 
> 
> And the solo trombone. Note, this is the exact same MIDI performance; I made no edits in the content from the two trombone file. More of a comparison of tone.
> 
> 
> 
> I left all the warts in, to help demonstrate where things can go wrong. All effects and other MSB settings are at their default. No external or additional processing or effects. Effectively, this is out of the box sound. I didn't adjust any of the starting attacks... which would be an additional element towards realism. But this shows me the value to slowly understanding how each of these variables affect the sound.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.




You’re a true gentleman. Many thanks for doing this. Helpful indeed.


----------



## Nicola74

LHall said:


> I will be getting MSB in the next few days. Huge fan/user of LASS since it came out.
> 
> I'm curious if any of the current owners have tried using a breath controller yet? I love using it for all the brass and wind instruments I do. Hoping it's intuitive for MSB.


I tried using a breath controller with MSB for five minutes because I didn't have enough time, but it worked pretty well. I use breath controller for mostly everything, so for me this is one of the most important aspect


----------



## Mucusman

One more sample, and I'll call it a day. Here is a very brief "context" cue I put together, featuring horns, tubas, piccolo trumpet, and cimbasso. These are joined by Audiobro's Genesis Children's Choir (my first Audiobro library) and some light strings from Spitfire's Albion V. 



I will also add that the Intuition instruments, _not _featured above, which I imagine cousins to sample modeling instruments, are really great and a blast to play. When I play them I feel like somehow I am getting hundreds of dollars in other brass instruments for free, as I wasn't expecting them to be part of the package.


----------



## Noeticus

Interesting....


----------



## ProfoundSilence

interesting is someone playing a bunch of patches(many of which aren't even 6 horns) at cc127?

horn is so sweet and mellow, and part of what sets it apart from the bones/trumpets.


----------



## brenneisen

ProfoundSilence said:


> interesting is someone playing a bunch of patches(many of which aren't even 6 horns) at cc127?



right? And using close mics with libraries recorded on great rooms


----------



## Mucusman

That's the thing about almost all of the comparison videos I've seen over the last couple of years that have someone pitting 2+ libraries "against" each other. Because getting the best performance out of each library involves different means; simply plugging, playing, and comparing rarely gives results that demonstrate what a library is truly capable of. So, such efforts usually only compare how each library sounds in one narrow set of specific conditions.

But I get it. Almost always, we're asked to buy on faith and spend significant amount of money on a tool that we personally cannot test before purchasing. So we look at demos and comparisons hoping to gain information that will enable us to make a wise choice. There doesn't seem to be any silver bullet to ensuring that one will make a great choice. The closest I've come to is discerning which developers _tend _to deliver the goods. But that's still not 100% reliable, and there are so many other variables that I've used to weigh whether I should go with choice A, B, C, D, or E (etc.).


----------



## Suntower

I gotta vent a little. I bought LASS several years ago because I wanted something -bigger- than VSL
Strings. I thought the price was too good to be true because from the demos it has a -totally- epic sound. The demos really -are- gorgeous. But the UI is soooooooooooooooooooooooo UNBELIEVABLY CLUNKY it's RIDONCULOUS... It's just -painful- to make real music.

I used to think VSL was sooooooooooooooooooooo over-priced. I used to think they were soooooooooooooooooo arrogant. But basically, almost every other developer seems to SKIMP in -some- way or other. Either on the sample quality, the articulations or the UI to tie it together so that you can actually make human-sounding music. VSL makes the Rolls Royce experience and that's why they get away with such extortionate prices. OK, I'm done.

I -love- the MSB demos. Those Cimbassos are the sound of an Opera orchestra. After you hear it, the gap in other brass libs between t-bones and tuba sounds pathetic by comparison. And I am encouraged by the new 'engine' AudioBro has on offer. But I want to hear people talk about HOW MUCH EASIER IT IS IN DAY TO DAY USE. Because A.R.T. can be a nightmare. Or.... I'm just super thick... which is entirely possible... and never 'got it'.


----------



## Guy Rowland

I could be wrong - so often am - but I'd advise against it for you, Suntower. Not because it isn't excellent - it absolutely is - and not because you can't work super-quickly with it - you can. And not because the UI isn't much better than LASS - it is. But because you never found the time to make LASS work for you, and MSB, in that sense, is perhaps similar, I fear the worst in your case.

LASS is a library that requires some heavy lifting to get it set up working for you. It might be the hardest around in that regard, the ARC has some really tricky concepts to get your head around. But if you spent the time with it, getting it set up (I have a video on this somewhere) then it will pay you back massively. It will be superquick to work with in practice, because you put in the hours upfront to tailor it just to how you need it. And because their programming, editing and recording is so slick, you'll be spending a lot less time in the end working around various deficiencies.

MSB IS much simpler, and sounds gorgeous right out of the box, its totally playable and even magical on a first play. But it shares that Audiobro DNA. Some of the more advanced concepts eluded me initially, took me a while to grapple with it, they definitely have an idiosyncratic way of doing things. But there is always reason in their apparent madness. The flexibility, scope and depth is ridiculous, and the attention to detail and QC superb.

So it took me a few days to get MSB into my template. Not a few continuous days I hasten to add, but all in it was probably something like 8 hours I'd guess. The library is vast, and that's one of the reasons why it took so long, and I wanted a very specific configuration that took some time to get organised. Now its exactly how I want it at the push of a button in Cubase / VE Pro, and I adore it.

FWIW, my own head could never really get round VSL's player. The grid system still baffles me to this day, and goodness knows I've tried to get it. Eventually I can make it do what I want, but its a lot of trial and a lot of error. What is intuitive to one person is arcane to another I guess. So you absolutely have my sympathies with not getting concepts. But it sounds like the AudioBro way might not be your way.


----------



## star.keys

In really keen to consider purchasing this library but not one proper user demo... what is going on here


----------



## Eptesicus

For


Noeticus said:


> Interesting....




The problem with this, is that he thought he had 4 horns on the audiobro sample, but in fact had 6 because he had two 2x horn patches and 2x single horn patches together.

Also, for this library he only had the close mic selected as far as i can tell. Then for other, like century, the mixed mic was used. I thought "wow century sounds better than the rest", but then i think that might just be because it is set to the mixed mic set up and the others are using just the close mic.

This doesn't create a very even comparison.

What was good to hear was the auto divisi and how much more natural playing chords was/sounds. It really highlighted the volume differences between playing a chord with the proper 6 horns rather than 12 or 18 .


----------



## Guy Rowland

Just in case its of any use to anyone still considering the library, here's a half an hour whizz through of it in my template:


----------



## StillLife

Guy Rowland said:


> I could be wrong - so often am - but I'd advise against it for you, Suntower. Not because it isn't excellent - it absolutely is - and not because you can't work super-quickly with it - you can. And not because the UI isn't much better than LASS - it is. But because you never found the time to make LASS work for you, and MSB, in that sense, is perhaps similar, I fear the worst in your case.
> 
> LASS is a library that requires some heavy lifting to get it set up working for you. It might be the hardest around in that regard, the ARC has some really tricky concepts to get your head around. But if you spent the time with it, getting it set up (I have a video on this somewhere) then it will pay you back massively. It will be superquick to work with in practice, because you put in the hours upfront to tailor it just to how you need it. And because their programming, editing and recording is so slick, you'll be spending a lot less time in the end working around various deficiencies.
> 
> MSB IS much simpler, and sounds gorgeous right out of the box, its totally playable and even magical on a first play. But it shares that Audiobro DNA. Some of the more advanced concepts eluded me initially, took me a while to grapple with it, they definitely have an idiosyncratic way of doing things. But there is always reason in their apparent madness. The flexibility, scope and depth is ridiculous, and the attention to detail and QC superb.
> 
> So it took me a few days to get MSB into my template. Not a few continuous days I hasten to add, but all in it was probably something like 8 hours I'd guess. The library is vast, and that's one of the reasons why it took so long, and I wanted a very specific configuration that took some time to get organised. Now its exactly how I want it at the push of a button in Cubase / VE Pro, and I adore it.
> 
> FWIW, my own head could never really get round VSL's player. The grid system still baffles me to this day, and goodness knows I've tried to get it. Eventually I can make it do what I want, but its a lot of trial and a lot of error. What is intuitive to one person is arcane to another I guess. So you absolutely have my sympathies with not getting concepts. But it sounds like the AudioBro way might not be your way.



Thank you for your very informative posts, Guy. Do you think that MSB's sound and playability can also enthusiasm a more indie-pop/singer-songwriter? Or is it strictly focused at the big screen brass (the only two demo's I could find are). Having a hard time deciding what could be my brass library. Spitfire Studio or Symphonic even? CSB? MSB? Or stick with the NI brass solo anf ensembles essentials that came with komplete? Any advice highly appreciated.


----------



## chocobitz825

StillLife said:


> Thank you for your very informative posts, Guy. Do you think that MSB's sound and playability can also enthusiasm a more indie-pop/singer-songwriter? Or is it strictly focused at the big screen brass (the only two demo's I could find are). Having a hard time deciding what could be my brass library. Spitfire Studio or Symphonic even? CSB? MSB? Or stick with the NI brass solo anf ensembles essentials that came with komplete? Any advice highly appreciated.



it can do it to a certain degree but might take more doing than its worth for indie pop. I've found that it doesnt really fit pop as much in what I've tried to do lately, unless it was aimed at more classical style. Recently I've found 8Dio's Intimate Brass and Samplemodeling's brass to be better fits.


----------



## Guy Rowland

StillLife said:


> Thank you for your very informative posts, Guy. Do you think that MSB's sound and playability can also enthusiasm a more indie-pop/singer-songwriter? Or is it strictly focused at the big screen brass (the only two demo's I could find are). Having a hard time deciding what could be my brass library. Spitfire Studio or Symphonic even? CSB? MSB? Or stick with the NI brass solo anf ensembles essentials that came with komplete? Any advice highly appreciated.



Tonally I think it will work fine for those, as long as you mean not big band type stuff (which i think you don't - Big Band Indie isn't really a thing, is it? Maybe it should be...). If you want more intimate brass arrangements, MSB would be really good there I think. Because it was recorded in a fairly dry hall, it doesn't have that baked in cinematic ambience, and it has some lovely instruments in the mp/mf range which could work well.


----------



## Eptesicus

Guy Rowland said:


> Just in case its of any use to anyone still considering the library, here's a half an hour whizz through of it in my template:




Thanks for doing this. Really good to hear most of the library played.

Really impressed by the agility of the trumpet legato at the start!

Love the growl of the cimbassi(os)  too.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

@Guy Rowland 

Thanks for the video, very appreciated.

Out of curiosity: I see that the NKIs are locked. Is this correct? In the Audiobro videos they aren't. But I think this shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> @Guy Rowland
> 
> Thanks for the video, very appreciated.
> 
> Out of curiosity: I see that the NKIs are locked. Is this correct? In the Audiobro videos they aren't. But I think this shouldn't be a problem.



Ah, just shut it down for the day... you mean locked from editing under the hood? I'll check tomorrow, someone else may well have chimed in by then. (You can tell how I often I want to dive under the hood by the fact I haven't noticed, or even really know what to notice - I figure anything under there on a library like MSB is going to be so massively complicated I may as well not bother...)


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Guy Rowland said:


> Ah, just shut it down for the day... you mean locked from editing under the hood? I'll check tomorrow, someone else may well have chimed in by then. (You can tell how I often I want to dive under the hood by the fact I haven't noticed, or even really know what to notice - I figure anything under there on a library like MSB is going to be so massively complicated I may as well not bother...)



No problem! Yes, I meant the editability.


----------



## Suntower

LOL. You may be right. I broke down and -forced- myself to learn VSL. I got LASS at a point in my life where I had reached a breaking point about learning non-musical DAW shit. The number of technical vocabularies one has to deal with is like, OH GREAT YET ANOTHER SAMPLE LIB DEVELOPER HAS DEVELOPED YET ANOTHER BESPOKE SYSTEM! The arrogance just blows my mind sometimes.

Anyhoo... The problem for me, as I said is that the thing just sounds wonderful. I used to play with an opera orchestra and the sound of cimbassos makes for a brass choir that is to die for. 

The only real question is: IS THE THING PLAYABLE if one puts in the work.

IOW: If one -is- diligent, can one make real music? I hate to sound so cynical, but I've bought one too many 500-600 libs that are only suitable for video game scoring due to crap articulations/transitions.

Hopefully, AudioBro will post more fully realised demos before the sale ends.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my ranting.

---JC





Guy Rowland said:


> I could be wrong - so often am - but I'd advise against it for you, Suntower. Not because it isn't excellent - it absolutely is - and not because you can't work super-quickly with it - you can. And not because the UI isn't much better than LASS - it is. But because you never found the time to make LASS work for you, and MSB, in that sense, is perhaps similar, I fear the worst in your case.
> 
> LASS is a library that requires some heavy lifting to get it set up working for you. It might be the hardest around in that regard, the ARC has some really tricky concepts to get your head around. But if you spent the time with it, getting it set up (I have a video on this somewhere) then it will pay you back massively. It will be superquick to work with in practice, because you put in the hours upfront to tailor it just to how you need it. And because their programming, editing and recording is so slick, you'll be spending a lot less time in the end working around various deficiencies.
> 
> MSB IS much simpler, and sounds gorgeous right out of the box, its totally playable and even magical on a first play. But it shares that Audiobro DNA. Some of the more advanced concepts eluded me initially, took me a while to grapple with it, they definitely have an idiosyncratic way of doing things. But there is always reason in their apparent madness. The flexibility, scope and depth is ridiculous, and the attention to detail and QC superb.
> 
> So it took me a few days to get MSB into my template. Not a few continuous days I hasten to add, but all in it was probably something like 8 hours I'd guess. The library is vast, and that's one of the reasons why it took so long, and I wanted a very specific configuration that took some time to get organised. Now its exactly how I want it at the push of a button in Cubase / VE Pro, and I adore it.
> 
> FWIW, my own head could never really get round VSL's player. The grid system still baffles me to this day, and goodness knows I've tried to get it. Eventually I can make it do what I want, but its a lot of trial and a lot of error. What is intuitive to one person is arcane to another I guess. So you absolutely have my sympathies with not getting concepts. But it sounds like the AudioBro way might not be your way.


----------



## Guy Rowland

@Pixelpoet1985 - yes, locked patches it looks like to me.

@Suntower - I think most of us (certainly I) reach a brick wall when working with multiple libraries, and actually its a good anti-GAS defense. "Do I REALLY need this when I know I have to put in hours / days / weeks to get the most out of it? Or make more out of what I already have?"

I posted a video further up the page this is playing randomly as I have things set up, may hopefully get a feel for how it is under the fingers. My own fingers are so clumsy, I've always thought it must be nice for people to listen to it and think "Well I can make it sound better than THAT"...


----------



## MartinH.

Suntower said:


> IOW: If one -is- diligent, can one make real music? I hate to sound so cynical, but I've bought one too many 500-600 libs that are only suitable for video game scoring due to crap articulations/transitions.



Why do you think "video game scoring" isn't "real music"?


----------



## CoffeeLover

MartinH. said:


> Why do you think "video game scoring" isn't "real music"?


oh my!
so some of us dont listen to music? 
okay call it what you want then but does not 
make some of us enjoy it any less and infact i enjoy the hell out of videogame music.

ive been into all geners of music 
and been an avid fan of lots of great artist and also crapy artist that i admire and lesser known "still great from my perspective"
ive played on the big stages for over 100k people
ive toured like a maniac with sold out gigs over the world
and for over a year now i come home and turn on my 65" smart tv and put on youtupe "Jeremy Soule" morrowind game ambience for hours and hours.
I love videogame music!! 
id be quite ignorant if i were to say that something isnt music when it does not apply to my point of view.

anyway it was not neccecary for me to put this out but i wanted to say for all the game people that i enjoy alot of their music and just as much as radio big names in past and present. 

score your games people! 3>


----------



## Raphioli

MartinH. said:


> Suntower said:
> 
> 
> 
> IOW: If one -is- diligent, can one make real music? I hate to sound so cynical, but I've bought one too many 500-600 libs that are only suitable for video game scoring due to crap articulations/transitions.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think "video game scoring" isn't "real music"?
Click to expand...


video game music isn't real music?! well thats a first....




CoffeeLover said:


> id be quite ignorant if i were to say that something isnt music when it does not apply to my point of view.


+1


----------



## MartinH.

CoffeeLover said:


> I love videogame music!!





Raphioli said:


> video game music isn't real music?! well thats a first....



Not sure why you guys are quoting me instead of @Suntower, but I'm 100% with you on this. Most orchestral music I listen to is from games, a lot of it by Jeremy Soule too. 

I'm genuinely curious why @Suntower thinks these "lesser" libraries are only good enough for video game scoring and not for "real music" (whatever that's supposed to mean).


----------



## Raphioli

MartinH. said:


> Not sure why you guys are quoting me instead of @Suntower,


Sorry, I wanted to quote your whole post including your quote of Suntowers post.
Fixed my original post right now. (I agree with you too, btw)


----------



## prodigalson

Suntower said:


> OH GREAT YET ANOTHER SAMPLE LIB DEVELOPER HAS DEVELOPED YET ANOTHER BESPOKE SYSTEM! The arrogance just blows my mind sometimes.



How DARE software companies try to innovate and push the boundaries of software to accomodate the requirements of their libraries! The arrogance!!


----------



## jonathanparham

Raphioli said:


> video game music isn't real music?! well thats a first....
> 
> 
> 
> +1


My perception is not that video game isn't real music, but the comment is in relation to sample library developers putting out large section epic sounding instruments.


----------



## Noeticus

And...


----------



## Eptesicus

Still only two pretty similar demos so far and its been out almost a month...

Seems odd for such a big expensive flagship library. 

I really want to hear some "naked" demos of a whole large section playing various genres.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Eptesicus said:


> Still only two pretty similar demos so far and its been out almost a month...
> 
> Seems odd for such a big expensive flagship library.
> 
> I really want to hear some "naked" demos of a whole large section playing various genres.


Me too.


----------



## wbacer

Tried to get MSB to play my favorite fanfare. Still a lot to learn...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

cc1?


----------



## Dave Connor

Is it confirmed that the library has three dynamic layers? How are people finding that? Are you getting what you want at the extreme dynamic ranges? 

Is there a general consensus on the overall library now that you’ve had more time with it?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Raphioli said:


> video game music isn't real music?! well thats a first....



It's real music looped, no?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf




----------



## Guy Rowland

Dave Connor said:


> Is it confirmed that the library has three dynamic layers? How are people finding that? Are you getting what you want at the extreme dynamic ranges?
> 
> Is there a general consensus on the overall library now that you’ve had more time with it?



Number of layers varies from articulation to articulation I think, minimum of 3 for all the core stuff I think though.

Can't speak for anyone else, but very happy here.


----------



## Batrawi

wbacer said:


> Tried to get MSB to play my favorite fanfare. Still a lot to learn...



something's really off with the note attacks here. They're just too sharp that they make the whole note sounds like a pure rectangular midi block (if that makes any sense). Even the sharpest note in real life has that pre-attack blowing noise that then curves/morphs into the sustained note...something that seems absent in this library as far as I heard from all demos- not just this one.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Batrawi said:


> something's really off with the note attacks here. They're just too sharp that they make the whole note sounds like a pure rectangular midi block (if that makes any sense). Even the sharpest note in real life has that pre-attack blowing noise that then curves/morphs into the sustained note...something that seems absent in this library as far as I heard from all demos- not just this one.



that's what happen when you leave on 1 attack turn the dynamics to max and leave it. 

that said, I think it's a consequence of people not using an extra CC to modulate the attack type - even when they move CC1, they seldom seem to automate or control the attacks. Honestly, I've been house hunting and work has been dragging the life out of me - so I haven't been able to play with the library much at all. But this is simply a case of user error, even the sustains have 3 different attack types(recorded at multiple dynamics) I'm personally not as excited as I was about the library - simply because of the center recorded aspect, and it really not having much in the lower regions. 

I would rather subtract than add when it comes to EQ, and I feel like the sound you get from this library is great for adventure/classical works - but would take more work than I'd like to get the specific brass sound I'm after.


----------



## Living Fossil

Batrawi said:


> ...something that seems absent in this library as far as I heard from all demos- not just this one.



Owning this library i strongly disagree.
However, it's a library that needs the (intense) use of controllers.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

ProfoundSilence said:


> that's what happen when you leave on 1 attack turn the dynamics to max and leave it.
> 
> that said, I think it's a consequence of people not using an extra CC to modulate the attack type - even when they move CC1, they seldom seem to automate or control the attacks. Honestly, I've been house hunting and work has been dragging the life out of me - so I haven't been able to play with the library much at all. But this is simply a case of user error, even the sustains have 3 different attack types(recorded at multiple dynamics) I'm personally not as excited as I was about the library - simply because of the center recorded aspect, and it really not having much in the lower regions.
> 
> I would rather subtract than add when it comes to EQ, and I feel like the sound you get from this library is great for adventure/classical works - but would take more work than I'd like to get the specific brass sound I'm after.


Can I ask which type of brass sound you were chasing (sorry if you said earlier in the thread)? An example or description? Also, which tools have you tried for placement to deal with the centre recording aspect? Is it a case of you can’t get good placement results or that it takes extra time/effort to get it right compared to a library recorded in position; that you don’t like?


----------



## Guy Rowland

Living Fossil said:


> Owning this library i strongly disagree.
> However, it's a library that needs the (intense) use of controllers.



Actually I don’t even find controller use especially taxing. I have attacks mapped to key velocity, so there’s a natural variation as I play soft / loud, and I’ve also put an auto-control for cc11 onto cc1 to cut down on fader use (cc11 I have working in the range of 50-100%).

I’m not saying that there aren’t issues to deal with with MSB, as any library, but there does seem to be rather odd effect of people hearing major problems that imo are either very subtle or not there at all. Not isolating any one person in particular. The library does have a lot of options and a lot of control which means I guess one person’s setup and demos might not reflect how another person uses it, and there was certainly a relative paucity of material to listen to at launch which might go some way to explain this, but in use now I have it all set up I find I just play and it works.

The relative lack of dynamics in the lower part of the CC1 range is one where I can see the problem but is (if you will) rather overblown. Elsewhere I produced examples that were entirely in the first half of cc1, and there was considerable range there. In an ideal world there would be more, but it’s good and useable to me. Given that each instrument is build as an ensemble from solos, this seems particularly remarkable that it works as well as it does without a hint of phasing present anywhere, and that’s must have been a megaton of work. Perhaps given the scale of the whole endeavour limiting to 3 layers on sustain was the real world trade off. But of course by doing it the way they’ve done it, you get lots of other benefits.


----------



## Living Fossil

@Guy Rowland : What i meant is that MSB indeed gives you the possibility to control the addressed issues. I've assigned different relevant parameters (attack, tighten, vibrato, sizzle etc) to controllers and like the workflow & the results.


----------



## sinkd

ProfoundSilence said:


> that's what happen when you leave on 1 attack turn the dynamics to max and leave it.


Right.


ProfoundSilence said:


> ...and it really not having much in the lower regions.


Gotta disagree strongly with this--have you checked out Guy's walkthrough?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

sinkd said:


> Right.
> 
> Gotta disagree strongly with this--have you checked out Guy's walkthrough?


I own the library - and the bulk of it's serious competition. 

I also own Cinebrass(everything)
I also own Berlin Brass(everything except FX)
I also own Spitfire Symphonic Brass
I also own Hollywood Brass
I also own Cinematic Studio Brass
I also own plenty of other brass libraries(adventure/Caspian/all the arks/sample modeling/chris hein orchestral brass)

Would you like me to directly compare it to cinebrass, berlin brass, and cinematic studio brass? The other brass libraries recorded on scoring stages(HWB just isn't installed)

It's not that it's un-usable... it simply lacks a lot of the body - that I'd (as I stated) rather remove rather than add) Trying to spatialize center recorded material is not the end of the world - I've got the tools to do it. Trying to add bottom end that isn't present in the recordings is also possible - I've got the tools to do it. 

But doing both for a few nice features over just using the libraries I already have comes down to sonic requirements. It's literally a preference of workflow(I think the library is amazing for sketching, but ultimately I would want to just redo using berlin most likely) Sonically this library fits better with the spitfire symphonic stuff than it does my berlin stuff. 

My initial assumptions about the library stayed roughly the same after purchasing. Auto Divisi - writing tool, center recorded bothered me like it does everytime - and while it's not "too thin" it does lack some of the very low information(that usually gets filtered off anyways). It's an amazing library, but it has it's quirks - and I've stated them.

That said, this is a library with a lot of shaping required by the user - and as a result is very easily subjected to misuse.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Here you go. 

1. the Decca Tree from MSB, no EQ, no effects. 
2. the ORTF mic from Berlin Brass, no EQ, no effects(The berlin tree is much farther back than MSB)
3. the Main mic(tree I assume) from CSB, no EQ, no effects
4. the room mic from Cinebrass Pro, no EQ, no effects(there is really no happy medium between the close mic and the room - and no extremely tight short like the other libraries offer)

all 3 use the exact same midi, 3 notes, velocity 1 > velocity 67 > velocity 127.

MSB > BB > CSB >CB in that order. 

despite berlin brass being in a similar proximity - you can still hear plenty of bottom end(an effect that is much more obvious on the other mic choices) 

I had a hard time getting Cinebrass' dynamic curve lined up with the other libraries, as it's the only one that had an abysmally small dynamic range(2 velocity layers I think)

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/shorts-mp3.20213/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## pderbidge

ProfoundSilence said:


> Here you go.
> 
> 1. the Decca Tree from MSB, no EQ, no effects.
> 2. the ORTF mic from Berlin Brass, no EQ, no effects(The berlin tree is much farther back than MSB)
> 3. the Main mic(tree I assume) from CSB, no EQ, no effects
> 4. the room mic from Cinebrass Pro, no EQ, no effects(there is really no happy medium between the close mic and the room - and no extremely tight short like the other libraries offer)
> 
> all 3 use the exact same midi, 3 notes, velocity 1 > velocity 67 > velocity 127.
> 
> MSB > BB > CSB >CB in that order.
> 
> despite berlin brass being in a similar proximity - you can still hear plenty of bottom end(an effect that is much more obvious on the other mic choices)
> 
> I had a hard time getting Cinebrass' dynamic curve lined up with the other libraries, as it's the only one that had an abysmally small dynamic range(2 velocity layers I think)
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/shorts-mp3.20213/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I don't own this library so it's hard to comment on what you might be hearing without a good play through of the library, so my impression of what I hear could change if I owned it and had a play-through like you have been doing, however from your short example it sounds to me that the main difference between each one is that MSB has less room than the others, which may make it feel like it has less body. The sound, however sounds, to me, exactly how that instrument would sound in dry room. Are you thinking that maybe they eq'd the low end out of the instrument for some reason? It's certainly possible but that's not what I'm hearing.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

pderbidge said:


> I don't own this library so it's hard to comment on what you might be hearing without a good play through of the library, so my impression of what I hear could change if I owned it and had a play-through like you have been doing, however from your short example it sounds to me that the main difference between each one is that MSB has less room than the others, which may make it feel like it has less body. The sound, however sounds, to me, exactly how that instrument would sound in dry room. Are you thinking that maybe they eq'd the low end out of the instrument for some reason? It's certainly possible but that's not what I'm hearing.



I think it's a consequence of a dry room, combined with being in the center of it. 

their tree is close(but berlin is similar presence with a muuuuchhh different room, and not in the center of it)

that said, later this week I can even compare the short mic's from berlin, but teldex is also just plain juicy for brass. 

the surround for MSB isn't magically holding all the bottom end either. I should note that I turned the sizzle knob off, so the samples are un-EQ'd by the sizzle as well(which ofcourse removes more bottom end when it's on top)

In the case of the berlin brass short - it's similiarly present and tight, but it still has warmth and ambience in the tail, something you'd have to add completely artificially with MSB.

That said, the end result of mixing for something like berlin I'd imagine people would(I know I usually do) remove some of the tail end anyways - but I wouldn't go as far as MSB goes(thus I'm stuck adding information that isn't really there)


----------



## Eptesicus

....still no more than 2 quite similar demos : /


----------



## Sean

Yea doesn't feel like Audiobro are handling this in a very good way honestly.


----------



## Sean

ka00 said:


> While we wait for more demos, can someone please tell me if @Guy Rowland and Guy Michelmore are the same person?? Are these two super cool dudes or one?
> 
> Thanks


They are different people... thus the different last names


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

ka00 said:


> Man, their voices are so similar to me. I’ve assumed they were the same person using an alias. Lol, I feel dumb.


maybe they should impersonate eachother


----------



## Guy Rowland

Maybe Other Guy and I should legally combine and share admin costs.


----------



## sIR dORT

This thread is too long.


----------



## LamaRose

Guy Rowland said:


> Just in case its of any use to anyone still considering the library, here's a half an hour whizz through of it in my template:



Didn't realize that this had been released... this is my first taste and it sounds killer.


----------



## TeamLeader

Any more comments positive or negative before in pull the trigger on this? It sure aint like I need any more libraries period, so any add'l int is helpful.


----------



## jaketanner

TeamLeader said:


> Any more comments positive or negative before in pull the trigger on this? It sure aint like I need any more libraries period, so any add'l int is helpful.



well why would you buy this? What is your rational? I'm gonna play devil's advocate here...what other libraries do you have that are NOT giving you the sound you are after?


----------



## sinkd

TeamLeader said:


> Any more comments positive or negative before in pull the trigger on this? It sure aint like I need any more libraries period, so any add'l int is helpful.


I bought it because I knew I needed it. It does things that VSL and HB don't do in my workflow, and I know it will stay in my template because LASS has outlasted a lot of other libraries for me. I held off on Berlin, Cinesamples, and Spitfire brasses until this came out and I am glad I did.


----------



## TeamLeader

jaketanner said:


> well why would you buy this? What is your rational? I'm gonna play devil's advocate here...what other libraries do you have that are NOT giving you the sound you are after?



Hey there Jake. We use LASS for all our pop and jazz strings. But have all the spitfire air lyndhurst stuff for the scoring and symphonic contracts. With the spitfire stuff we have all the cinesamples brass stuff dialed in to sit with the air lyndhurst stuff. And the sonokinetic stuff too. (Also use CHein Horns pro for pop horns along with SAJH) But of all the orch families, the brass for spitfire and cinesamples, sono, etc doesnt do well, all the things we need to do. (ie.: 'over the top' things, and fast paced phrases.) Hence my query.


----------



## maestro2be

Looks like you're going to need to make your decision based on what they currently have as examples. Sale ends Friday the 14th I just seen on their website.

I wonder if these brass instruments can blare with freakish power like in a Hans Zimmer score? At the same time, play a gorgeous smooth singing brass orchestra.

I have fallen victim of so many pre-sales purchases and regretted it, it's hard to commit even with the savings it offers.


----------



## purple

If you're still on the fence about the library, I can't honestly say I'd recommend it unless you already have the other major players and either just want more sounds in your toolkit OR want a bunch of pretty usable and good solo instruments. 

If you love to dig in and get really specific with your MIDI library, this one has a lot of buttons and features to play with. 

If you are just looking for a bunch of new patches to layer or use as solo instruments - this library might be a good choice. With so many solo instruments to pick from, if you have the money to spend, it's probably worth picking up.

If you work on short deadlines - this is not the library for you. It takes so much time to get something good out of it that if you need to work quickly it simply isn't feasible with this library, and this is with quite a bit of practice now.

If you are on a budget rig - this is not the library for you. It's a resource hog, and when I say that I really mean it. It's quite slow and laggy for me on an I5 6600k overclocked to 4.0 GHz. Laggy to the point that moving a knob or fader in the MSB interface often seizes up kontakt for a couple seconds before figuring out what I did. Maybe this is just an issue for me, but it seems to not get much better despite reading through their performance tips and going to the forums. Saving a project with any MSB instruments open also takes several times longer than a large template with any of the other libraries I've used. It's not a dealbreaker for me but certainly adds to the general frustration of the library. Your mileage may vary, as always with performance of programs.

Since I bought it-pretty much at release-and have done a bunch of experimenting and working with it, I don't think any aspects of it stand out as better than any other major libraries to me (the legato is not as good as the CS stuff, it doesn't sound as good or realistic as BB or Cinebrass tone-wise, the shorts are very limited in dynamic range and overall the attacks feel very choppy and boxed-in dynamically). 

A lot of people will tell you "it's dry, you just need to really work on it", but in my experience, it's simultaneously got common issues of a dry library, being that it needs some good reverb and general signal processing to get something good out it, but also feels resistant to any of that sort of processing and not very flexible on mixing. It's as if they recorded the instruments in a very live room and then tried to process it down until it was dry, causing reverb not to play so nicely but still removing the more natural sound of a room. The three different mic positions don't seem particularly useful, you won't get much better than the stock mix and changing the mix doesn't seem to have much impact on the end result as it does with other libraries' mixes. The library gets really muddy out-of-the-box, and some samples are strangely drier-sounding than others? That one's a real mystery to me, but it almost sounds like the shorts were recorded in a different space than the sustains or something. This causes a very disjointed feeling when shorts and sustains are next to eachother. This is an issue with all libraries I think, but this one seems to have it worse. 

Generally, the library doesn't blend well with itself, as it gets really synthy sounding if you have more than a few instruments playing at the same time. The horns have a very artificial sheen to them, the trombones don't seem to sound all that much like trombones, the tubas and bass trombones are pretty good on their own but probably not worth the soon to be $800 price tag, the cimbassi are not much to write home about in comparison to other players but are pretty good as well, the euphoniums and trumpets I think are quite good especially as solo instruments. That's where this library really shines-is as a collection of different solo players to be layered on top of other ensembles or used alone.


----------



## jaketanner

TeamLeader said:


> Hey there Jake. We use LASS for all our pop and jazz strings. But have all the spitfire air lyndhurst stuff for the scoring and symphonic contracts. With the spitfire stuff we have all the cinesamples brass stuff dialed in to sit with the air lyndhurst stuff. And the sonokinetic stuff too. (Also use CHein Horns pro for pop horns along with SAJH) But of all the orch families, the brass for spitfire and cinesamples, sono, etc doesnt do well, all the things we need to do. (ie.: 'over the top' things, and fast paced phrases.) Hence my query.



If you want brass for epic, then I would look at Forzo. MSB is relatively new, so there might not be many examples out there...but I also see the CSB can be quite aggressive as well. I would recommend Century brass...I love it, but it's not too "epic", but it's very natural sounding and playable.


----------



## Eptesicus

maestro2be said:


> Looks like you're going to need to make your decision based on what they currently have as examples. Sale ends Friday the 14th I just seen on their website.
> 
> I wonder if these brass instruments can blare with freakish power like in a Hans Zimmer score? At the same time, play a gorgeous smooth singing brass orchestra.
> 
> I have fallen victim of so many pre-sales purchases and regretted it, it's hard to commit even with the savings it offers.



Im with you there. I just cant decide on this one. Too many mixed reviews.It is quite a lot of money to throw away if the bad reviews are correct.

Also, i'm really quite stunned that they are ending the promo price in two days and still only have two fairly similar demos...


----------



## Living Fossil

maestro2be said:


> I wonder if these brass instruments can blare with freakish power like in a Hans Zimmer score? At the same time, play a gorgeous smooth singing brass orchestra.



If you want that instant blare sound, it's not the right library in my opinion.
Modern Scoring Brass shines when you write an arrangement that would also work when played by a real brass section. 
But i wouldn't see it as a replacement for those typical Trailer-Braahm-Sounds.


----------



## jneebz

jaketanner said:


> If you want brass for epic, then I would look at Forzo.


This was my take on this library, and honestly, it really doesn’t have powerful upper dynamics. There are a couple low patches that bite, but IMO it falls way more on the “useful for sound design” side. Actually my one Heavyocity Library that I regret buying.


----------



## TeamLeader

Living Fossil said:


> If you want that instant blare sound, it's not the right library in my opinion.
> Modern Scoring Brass shines when you write an arrangement that would also work when played by a real brass section.
> But i wouldn't see it as a replacement for those typical Trailer-Braahm-Sounds.



Hey there Fossil. Thanks to you and to all others for your good input. Appreciated. We do indeed write arrangements as per real brass sections. So that is sort of a non issue. Just need something that can do fast bold symphonic stuff. (not meaning epic though - I guess I shouldn't have used the confusing term over the top. We don't do heavy trailers or Hans type stuff - which i enjoy, just not our sphere) I suppose am talking about, and more concerned about, the phrase shaping.


----------



## purple

TeamLeader said:


> Hey there Fossil. Thanks to you and to all others for your good input. Appreciated. We do indeed write arrangements as per real brass sections. So that is sort of a non issue. Just need something that can do fast bold symphonic stuff. (not meaning epic though - I guess I shouldn't have used the confusing term over the top. We don't do heavy trailers or Hans type stuff - which i enjoy, just not our sphere) I suppose am talking about, and more concerned about, the phrase shaping.


I don't think this library can even handle the nuances of pretty standard symphonic repertoire either. It's not good for epic, but it also isn't delicate or nuanced enough to actually capture the sort of energy that is expected out of the typical orchestral brass section.


----------



## prodigalson

Eptesicus said:


> It is quite a lot of money to throw away if the bad reviews are correct.



In order for the bad reviews to be correct, the good reviews would have to be “incorrect” which would come as news to those who really like the library. There is no correct or incorrect


----------



## Eptesicus

purple said:


> I don't think this library can even handle the nuances of pretty standard symphonic repertoire either. It's not good for epic, but it also isn't delicate or nuanced enough to actually capture the sort of energy that is expected out of the typical orchestral brass section.



Are you talking about MSB or Forzo at this point?


----------



## purple

Eptesicus said:


> Are you talking about MSB or Forzo at this point?


MSB


----------



## Eptesicus

purple said:


> MSB



Wow you really seem to hate it. From what i have heard in this thread and from the two demos, it would appear to be able to everything other libraries can do and sound convincing whilst doing it.


----------



## purple

Eptesicus said:


> Wow you really seem to hate it. From what i have heard in this thread and from the two demos, it would appear to be able to everything other libraries can do and sound convincing whilst doing it.


I don't really agree but I guess it's all subjective. I wouldn't be as bothered if its retail price isn't going to be the same as berlin brass. I mean if I started by library collection all over I'd get a lot more mileage out of buying hollywood brass, CSB, and something else like one of the BB expansions or something considering just how expensive the library is!


----------



## jononotbono

Just wondering now that this has been out for a while, and perhaps people have really had time to use it and learn it, what people’s thoughts are on it?


----------



## Zedcars

prodigalson said:


> In order for the bad reviews to be correct, the good reviews would have to be “incorrect” which would come as news to those who really like the library. There is no correct or incorrect


Sorry to be picky, but that's not quite right is it. It's perfectly possible for a good review and a bad review to be true if they are talking about different specific areas of the product. I do see where you are coming from though in that there is a certain amount of subjectivity in reviews, which is why it is good to get opinions from as many reliable sources as possible (not always easy when a product is new).


----------



## jaketanner

purple said:


> I don't really agree but I guess it's all subjective. I wouldn't be as bothered if its retail price isn't going to be the same as berlin brass. I mean if I started by library collection all over I'd get a lot more mileage out of buying hollywood brass, CSB, and something else like one of the BB expansions or something considering just how expensive the library is!


Century brass bundle is fantastic. And it’s like half off during BF or one of 8dios insane flash sales. Lol


----------



## TomaeusD

I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but how is the detune knob? Can you play divisi and then mess with the knob for a sort of aleatoric effect much like Genesis? I suppose it won't work like I'm imagining because of how ensembles are set up.


----------



## prodigalson

Zedcars said:


> Sorry to be picky, but that's not quite right is it. It's perfectly possible for a good review and a bad review to be true if they are talking about different specific areas of the product. I do see where you are coming from though in that there is a certain amount of subjectivity in reviews, which is why it is good to get opinions from as many reliable sources as possible (not always easy when a product is new).



Sure, if someone asserts that a product doesn't have a feature that it objectively actually does have, then that would be "incorrect" but thats not what we're talking about here. The "bad reviews" mentioned in the post I was commenting on were very generally about sonics and generally the negative responses to the library are not about objective features. I maintain that a general "bad" review of anything can't be "correct" or "incorrect"


----------



## purple

TomaeusD said:


> I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but how is the detune knob? Can you play divisi and then mess with the knob for a sort of aleatoric effect much like Genesis? I suppose it won't work like I'm imagining because of how ensembles are set up.


You can manually set the random tuning bias of each instrument individually if you're using the patch as an ensemble. You can also change how much the instrument can randomly deviate from that tuning. I'm not at my workstation at the moment so I couldn't tell you whether it is controllable with CC, but if it's anything like the rest of the plugin it can probably be assigned to CC control as well. You can also just use independent patches I suppose if all else fails.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ofcourse its controllable by CC 

if you use the ensemble you can set the detuned range per instrument and the detuned knob will move each instrument to its detuned range. 

I hadn't attempted to make anything aleatoric, but the knob works exactly how you think it does.


----------



## TomaeusD

Thank you both! I'd love to see it in action at some point.


----------



## Zedcars

I was struggling to get a full force fff sound with MSB (since it only goes to ff). I managed a kind of pseudo-fff by going marcato in places, accents in others, using the sustains rather than the legatos which seems to soften subsequent notes, using the Sizzle control set at 3 o’clock, and using shorts where possible to get more attack. I must state that I am very much inexperienced with this library so I’m sure there are things that I’m doing wrong or could do way better.

As an example of loud brass with MSB, you can hear it in the last 43 seconds of this piece (I’m not happy with the poor bit rate of Soundcloud and I’m planning on moving away from them soon):



I layered some ‘bones from SSB, SSS, VSL Synchron Steinway, VSL Synchron timp and EWQL SC.

P.S. I will try and post a MSB only version once I get back into the studio.


----------



## Robert_G

So now that its been out for awhile, what do owners really think of it compared to other offerings?

There was previously lots of difference of opinion.


----------



## brenneisen

Zedcars said:


> P.S. I will try and post a MSB only version once I get back into the studio.



could you post the last 42s but without synths and beats?


----------



## Living Fossil

Robert_G said:


> So now that its been out for awhile, what do owners really think of it compared to other offerings?



I really like it, however, there's one thing to consider:
There are libraries that are very "forgiving"; they will still sound big, even if the orchestration of the instruments isn't that great.
Of course, that's specially the case with sampled ensembles, however, there are also libraries that offer sounds that one wouldn't achieve in real life. (e.g. blowing for a long time ffff in the high register etc.)

In this regard, MSB is a bit a tough one: A good arrangement, edited with care, will sound great.
However, a not-so-good arrangement will rather not sound good.
So, it's not an instant gratification library. It will shine when the brass section is handled with knowledge, but it's definitely not the library that sounds epic out of the box.


----------



## Eptesicus

Still tempted by this if it is on offer for Black Friday.

HOWEVER, Junkie XL Brass must be round the corner now and i really want to wait and hear what that sounds like.

I am also stunned that there are still only 2 demos?

I contacted them asking if there would be more months ago and they said yes. But there are still only two.


----------



## iMovieShout

I've had this for some months now, but only now beginning to play around with it.
I thought I'd create a template in VEPro 7 for all of the Full Mix instruments, and that was fine, until I loaded it up today on an external VEPro7 server (we have several of these on Windows Server 2012R2 with loads of memory). ANyway, I noticed that a couple of the instruments didn't seem to finish loading. So even when connected to the VEP VST Instrument on Cubase, the GUI wasn't fully loaded and the instrument doesn't play or respond in anyway.

This is the only VST instrument I've noticed that does this (we have alot of them).

Re-loading the template seems to solve the issue (after waiting another 30 mins for it to load). But its not going to stay in our studio template if this continues to happen.


Has anyone else had this issue?


----------



## purple

jpb007.uk said:


> I've had this for some months now, but only now beginning to play around with it.
> I thought I'd create a template in VEPro 7 for all of the Full Mix instruments, and that was fine, until I loaded it up today on an external VEPro7 server (we have several of these on Windows Server 2012R2 with loads of memory). ANyway, I noticed that a couple of the instruments didn't seem to finish loading. So even when connected to the VEP VST Instrument on Cubase, the GUI wasn't fully loaded and the instrument doesn't play or respond in anyway.
> 
> This is the only VST instrument I've noticed that does this (we have alot of them).
> 
> Re-loading the template seems to solve the issue (after waiting another 30 mins for it to load). But its not going to stay in our studio template if this continues to happen.
> 
> 
> Has anyone else had this issue?


I'm not sure if what you are describing is exactly the same, but sometimes instruments would load up with all the UI blank and sometimes a wall of text made from the text elements that would have been on the UI, but no functionality. Reloading is the only solution.


----------



## iMovieShout

I found the solution. Splitting the articulations up in to smaller groups. So 5 or 6 per midi channel seems to have worked. No idea why.


----------



## driscollmusick

This is rough, but wanted to share: 

With SS winds & strings:


----------



## Eptesicus

So this is $475 in the black friday sale now.

Tempted,but still cant decide between this, infinite brass or junkie xl brass...

Sometimes I think this sounds good, then sometimes not.

I really wish they would put more than two demos up!!


----------



## MartinH.

Eptesicus said:


> Tempted,but still cant decide between this, infinite brass or junkie xl brass...



I thought you hated the sound of jxl? I find the selection you're undecided between weird. Seems to me like JXL and infinite are almost on opposing ends of what they're trying to do 0_o. I don't own any of these libs, but I'd go for infinite or CSB depending on how you like using them.


----------



## Eptesicus

MartinH. said:


> I thought you hated the sound of jxl? I find the selection you're undecided between weird. Seems to me like JXL and infinite are almost on opposing ends of what they're trying to do 0_o. I don't own any of these libs, but I'd go for infinite or CSB depending on how you like using them.



?

I dont like the teaser sound no. That doesnt mean I have written it off!

Also, Junkie xl has small sections and soft articulations / pianissimo so likely will very versatile as well.

They are all contenders!


----------



## Seycara

Reposting this from another MSB thread.
Bought full MSB yesterday:

Pros:
- Library is huge, lots of instruments and the shorts are very good
- Rare instruments like alto trombone/euphoniums
- The sound is a versatile scoring stage sound

However the cons are numerous:

Cons:
- The FF legato layer is very dodgy, there is an unacceptable amount of phasing/suspect sample editing no where near the excellence of CSB legato (audio example 1/2); at a MSRP of $800 I'm expecting Berlin Brass/CSB quality as even though CSB is smaller, it is half the price. The berlin solo trombone 1 legato in comparison sounds more balanced at the FF dynamic (audio example 3)
- Legato in general has a few gems (Trumpet 3 mf legato sounds great), but overall has many problems associated with balance of volume between notes in the same layer; I understand that there are many instruments but at this price point all the instruments need to have consistency which I am not finding
- This is an opinion, but the GUI is extremely large and less easily navigated compared to Berlin/CSB; I'm sure there are some out there who vibe with this kind of open design but for me MSB into the LADD GUI category for me...

Somewhat of a disappointment considering Genesis legato was so strong.


----------



## Eptesicus

Seycara said:


> Reposting this from another MSB thread.
> Bought full MSB yesterday:
> 
> Pros:
> - Library is huge, lots of instruments and the shorts are very good
> - Rare instruments like alto trombone/euphoniums
> - The sound is a versatile scoring stage sound
> 
> However the cons are numerous:
> 
> Cons:
> - The FF legato layer is very dodgy, there is an unacceptable amount of phasing/suspect sample editing no where near the excellence of CSB legato (audio example 1/2); at a MSRP of $800 I'm expecting Berlin Brass/CSB quality as even though CSB is smaller, it is half the price. The berlin solo trombone 1 legato in comparison sounds more balanced at the FF dynamic (audio example 3)
> - Legato in general has a few gems (Trumpet 3 mf legato sounds great), but overall has many problems associated with balance of volume between notes in the same layer; I understand that there are many instruments but at this price point all the instruments need to have consistency which I am not finding
> - This is an opinion, but the GUI is extremely large and less easily navigated compared to Berlin/CSB; I'm sure there are some out there who vibe with this kind of open design but for me MSB into the LADD GUI category for me...
> 
> Somewhat of a disappointment considering Genesis legato was so strong.



That first audio example is particularly bad.


----------



## robh

Eptesicus said:


> That first audio example is particularly bad.


I agree. However, I have MSB and I couldn't reproduce it - not from a solo trumpet. The closest I came to reproducing that 1st example was when more than one trumpet was playing.
@Seycara , was that "Audio Example 1" supposed to be a solo trumpet?

Rob


----------



## Seycara

robh said:


> I agree. However, I have MSB and I couldn't reproduce it - not from a solo trumpet. The closest I came to reproducing that 1st example was when more than one trumpet was playing.
> @Seycara , was that "Audio Example 1" supposed to be a solo trumpet?
> 
> Rob


Yes, try playing trumpet 2 solo at FF 127 mw legato


----------



## Living Fossil

Seycara said:


> Yes, try playing trumpet 2 solo at FF 127 mw legato



I've just tried it (trumpet 2, mw at 127) and am not able not reproduce that ugly sound. 
What is your TransVol setting? 
Whatever you do, you're doing something wrong.


----------



## robh

Seycara said:


> Yes, try playing trumpet 2 solo at FF 127 mw legato


Ok. I think I was able to somewhat reproduce it, and I would have to guess that you accidentally left Auto Divisi on for your mp3s.

Rob


----------



## novaburst

Living Fossil said:


> In this regard, MSB is a bit a tough one: A good arrangement, edited with care, will sound great.
> However, a not-so-good arrangement will rather not sound good.
> So, it's not an instant gratification library. It will shine when the brass section is handled with knowledge, but it's definitely not the library that sounds epic out of the box.



Well worded, i think this is where the developer and user start to clash, on one hand the developer is creating a library for experienced musicians on the other hand there are not many that have the knowledge of orchestral arrangement, 

I think there is an attitude that you press a key on your keyboard then every thing just falls into place.

well Izotope are certainly heading down this road with the mastering assistant just click the icon and hay you have just master mixed your session in two minutes, i dont think working with librarys is quite the same as yet maybe one day.


----------



## purple

novaburst said:


> Well worded, i think this is where the developer and user start to clash, on one hand the developer is creating a library for experienced musicians on the other hand there are not many that have the knowledge of orchestral arrangement,
> 
> I think there is an attitude that you press a key on your keyboard then every thing just falls into place.
> 
> well Izotope are certainly heading down this road with the mastering assistant just click the icon and hay you have just master mixed your session in two minutes, i dont think working with librarys is quite the same as yet maybe one day.


I mean, there's a difference between a library needing a lot of work but being very rewarding.... and a library simply not having good content to begin with.... No amount of processing and detailed programming can turn a poorly recorded sample library into a well recorded one....


----------



## novaburst

purple said:


> I mean, there's a difference between a library needing a lot of work but being very rewarding.... and a library simply not having good content to begin with.... No amount of processing and detailed programming can turn a poorly recorded sample library into a well recorded one....



i have heard some beautiful muck ups and i mean beautiful, if i understand correctly the library is 180 gib of content, in that content there must be some good points.


----------



## Geoff Grace

I haven't used Modern Scoring Brass, but I know of more than one satisfied user. Here's what *Nathan Furst* had to say:



Nathan Furst said:


> In this saga of a thread, I've read some fairly funky statements, and also some smart and educated ones. If you'll all indulge me, I'd like to add my 2 cents as well. You may find them to thoughtful words from experience, or simply a ranting diatribe from a nutcase. (spoiler alert, both are correct!)
> Audiobro will be posting a demo from me soon (unless they think it blows), so that will also help you judge whether or not you feel I know what I'm talking about in this post.
> 
> MSB is a FANTASTIC brass library, with more real-time playable flexability WHILE still having a good "cleanly recorded" sound than any brass library I've used, and MSB will be the backbone for my brass template going forward. That's not to say that it's a "silver bullet" either. Some of the other libs I've been using will still be there for support, of course, but no other library I know of sounds as close to what I hear in the booth like MSB (read: recorded well and articulate, not polished and mastered). Plenty of libs sound like mix/mastered scores, but now you're "stuck" with that sound, and the seams start to show quickly as you work.
> I personally have not found a library with the 'finished mastered' sound that ALSO is a consistantly playable and malleable workhorse from a composition standpoint (such as having musicians is).
> 
> I suppose there are two different ways of looking at it:
> 
> A - either you want a library where you hit a note and it sounds like soundtrack albums we all know and aspire to, but then when you actually have to write your own music you can't go far with it and it will quickly show it seams.
> B - Or you want a library that takes some skill and setup, but can be used for any score in any style, and it's up to YOU to have to chops to know exactly how you want to write and produce it.
> 
> For me, MSB kinda strategically strattles the middle, but leans closer to B - Which I love.
> 
> I think a common misconception is that when you get a big live orchestra in a nice space, you set some mics up, record the performance, and now you're done! yeah, no.
> Even in that ideal situation, there's a TON of really intricate (and interesting!) tricks with routing, side-chaining, stem-swaping, reverb tickling (read: NOT set-and-forget) yada yada, that goes into getting a great 'sound'. ESPECIALLY with scores in the last 15 years.
> 
> If you want to midistrate like a beast, it's not going to happen cause you bought ANY specific sample library. I know mockups from 15 years ago done with shit libraries (by today's standards) that still don't have many rivals to this day. The real answer is this: Know what you want to do, and know your shit. Know how to write and arrange EXACTLY how YOU want, and then know how to produce EXACTLY how you want. Trust me, there is no university, academy course, Masterclass, etc, that can do for you what getting in the trenches learning what you want and what process that actually requires will do for you. It's not an easy road, for sure, but it's definitely more rewarding. (And, on deadlines, learn to know instinctively when "90% right" is when it's time to move on to the next cue).
> 
> If your a professional composer, or midistrator, whatever, the choice between A and B is easy - buy everything and make your own jambalaya.
> If that's not an option for you, then yes, you'll need to make choices that have tradeoffs on your approach/workflow. Both Pizza and Cheeseburgers are awesome, but you won't find them at the same restaurant, and if you do, you know it's going to be SHIT. If you REALLY want both Pizza and Cheeseburgers, and you want it to be really good, then learn your way around a kitchen, cause that's the only way it's gunna happen in a single meal. You dig?
> 
> IMO, MSB will require some time and setup to use it to it's potential - It's so flexible that I spent more set-up time implementing it than any other commercial library I've used yet. I spent the time to learn how I would use the lib, and programmed a majority of a Behringer X-touch to control any and all midi CCs for MSB. All attack options are toggled via buttons, and every single anything that is assignable to CC has been assigned so I can touch/perform it in real-time. Every. Single. One.
> I set up my template so that MSB is routed through something like 6 different aux's that also have sends to other buses, yada yada. Getting mockups to sound great with any combo of libraries is a whole thing, man. With MSB, once you have it down, it's as fast to work with as any other library, but (IMO) much less frustrating to get it to sound really solid.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'll say this: on a action movie, I'll start my brass writing with MSB, on an intimate drama, I'd start my brass writing with MSB.
> 
> PS - I think the two demos that Audiobro posted are pretty damn good, while sounding quite a bit different (I think anyway) to what I turned in, both compositionally and sonically. To me, that's a pretty cool strength for a library.
> 
> I always find audio demos for sample libraries difficult to evaluate; it can be challenging to know what the skill-set/tool-set ratio is. SO, if any of you hear my demo and want to know anything about it, PM me and I’ll post and answer it publicaly with as specific a answer as possible. Not that I think it would be anything mind-blowing, but then you’ll be able to evaluate what the library IS vs. what I DID with it.
> Alternatively, if you think it sucks, feel free to PM and tell me how much I stink. All are welcome! So...there ya go.
> 
> Also, I could spend a whole day getting into that Star Wars "demo", and why it's always a terrible idea to do sample demos using iconic scores that cost millions to produce and utilized the talent of only the best of the best on earth, but I don't have the energy to get into that...


Best,

Geoff


----------



## novaburst

jpb007.uk said:


> I found the solution. Splitting the articulations up in to smaller groups. So 5 or 6 per midi channel seems to have worked. No idea why.



On there web page they recommend to do a batch re save, and samples will load faster., quoted batch re save takes 10 to 30 minutes to process but its worth doing,


----------



## driscollmusick

Just completed this Star Wars mockup (brass is all MSB, rest is Spitfire)


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I'll have to check it out later. 

I always felt like MSB would be 1 church IR away from AIR libraries


----------



## marclawsonmusic

driscollmusick said:


> Just completed this Star Wars mockup (brass is all MSB, rest is Spitfire)





I really appreciate the effort, but this mockup from 2012 is still the standard for me:


----------



## mscp

How does it sit next to Berlin Brass?


----------



## novaburst

marclawsonmusic said:


> I really appreciate the effort, but this mockup from 2012 is still the standard for me:






May the force be ................sorry what i meant to say was impressive


----------



## jaketanner

driscollmusick said:


> Just completed this Star Wars mockup (brass is all MSB, rest is Spitfire)



I think if it was balanced better and faster it would show the library off better.


----------



## ChristianM

jaketanner said:


> I think if it was balanced better and faster it would show the library off better.


A little too detached in my opinion (strings and Brass).
The Brass don't always seem to be in the same room (too close).
Otherwise, for me, it's great !!


----------



## Minsky

jononotbono said:


> Does anyone know how long the intro price is going on for?
> 
> Also, does anyone know if Audio Bro offers an Edu Discount on their products?


Thinking of getting on Modern Scoring Brass myself. Nearly bought it yesterday for $499 so.. glad I didn't


----------



## Zookes

This happened today... https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-strings/


----------



## Da_Biz

Considering grabbing MSB at the Black Friday sale price, can somebody confirm whether the patches are locked or unlocked? I really want to be able to use additional scripts in Kontakt.


----------



## purple

It's $400 now? Wow. It's only been what a year and a half? That's $200 less than the intro price. Now I feel like I wasted even _more_ money.


----------



## dts_marin

Is the Full Mix version flexible enough for most cases? I have a slow internet connection and spending two weeks waiting for the whole 160GB library to download will not be fun.

I hope it is worth the wait. A bit scared I'll be disappointed but I want this library to be good.


----------



## Evans

I just want to say thank you to all the MSB users chiming in on this thread since its April 2019 release. 

I might pick it up tonight. I might not. But it's going to be a well informed informed decision.


----------



## novaburst

All patches are batch resaved and purged. I have also had to turn of the Kontakt time synch which did not play nice with DP tempo changes.

How many MSB instruments do you have loaded in your VEPro instance? I have considered that I should just thin things out to start with just what I use most frequently.


I have 6 horns with all mics in one player, and 6 trumpets in another player all mics, = VEpro server Cubase 10 about 2.5 Gb of ram each


----------



## Evans

I picked up Modern Scoring Brass last night. I've fallen behind on two projects now, but I did spend an hour with the library last night.

I'll add some impressions here. Caveat that they're brief thoughts, and brass isn't where I'm most comfortable.

No bounces yet, perhaps in a couple of weeks (sorry, I really shouldn't even be taking the time to write this, but I'm an idiot). At least there are still the isolated, official videos; Guy's walkthrough; and some content posted on page 65 of the Modern Scoring Strings thread. Also, over at The Sound Board, Guy posted more audio snippets, which were very helpful in making my purchase decision (I believe I saw elsewhere that both VI-C and TSB consider it okay to reference those). I'm not sure I'd have anything unique to share beyond those clips, anyway.

The first thing I did was stress test it. It wasn't a musical test in the slightest, it was some keyboard slamming and midi duplication for multiple instruments at a time for multiple articulations and multiple CC curves to see if I get get a spike (i7-8700k). No CPU issues of which to speak with VEPro.


Saving on RAM is *far *easier than I anticipated. And, with an SSD, unloaded artics zip in as needed.


As with my experience with Genesis, some of the default settings aren't to my liking. It's important to play with every knob, slider, and Mixer setting in Audiobro's latest libraries.


The Legato Speed and Transition Volume knobs are powerful and perhaps crucial for setting MSB apart from others. I know others have this out of the box as well, but I sometimes feel I have to use those in other libraries to fix issues, rather than shape sound. Not the case here, it might be more about shaping. I'm *very *happy about this.


Using the Vibrato like I do with Infinite Brass as a bit of a "humanization" helper will likely be valuable. Precision isn't necessary; just futz with it a bit. I should probably test out Detune, as well. Micro changes work wonders.


I appreciate the non-hyped sound. It's not "early VSL" levels of clinical, but also far from "every single note has emotion" like CineBrass or "check out how badass brass is" that JXL can be. It's between them, sort of. I think you could pull off Glory era James Horner with MSB.


I have many brass libraries, but what often gets me down are inconsistencies. I saw one VI-C user say MSB is fairly inconsistent, but it's not something I've yet noticed compared to the absurdities in CB or Berlin Brass.


I've read about some issues with unsatisfactory "harsh tone" when many instruments are used, perhaps most noticeable in context with a full mix. I'll have to check that out more, hopefully, this weekend or next.


I could see that issue in the horns and trombones, which can get a bit buzzy and limited on the low end richness. They sound nice lower in the _dynamic _range, but high dynamics are a bit odd when I'm used to hearing the density of CineBrass and JXL. Soft dynamics, however, are really nice with this library, I think. Sounds like an actual brass section. The mics do seem like they'll help pick between lesser evils, but I mostly listened to Full Mix last night.

*EDIT: *Well, I A/B'd a line from The Great Migration by Horner, comparing MSB and CineBrass. CineBrass definitely has a wider range, but MSB wasn't as odd/buzzy/metallic as I thought, comparatively. Maybe my ears are misremembering. That said, I still *stongly* dislike the trombones.

*EDIT #2: *Surround mix is just dry enough with sends off in the MSB mixer to work well with VEPro. Synchron Wide, Instrument heavy on the Dry, hella Wide. Takes some of the edge off.
I could see MSB as a "starting point" brass for a few instruments, layering in others as needs call for it. I'm not _*nearly *_there with it yet, not even close, but I could absolutely see it as a future possibility.

For the _current _price, I'm happier with this already than other libraries in its price range.

I'm not saying it's perfect for all use cases, by the way, but it felt like a risky purchase that I'm happy with and think it will have a place. It's kind of like Berlin Brass, in that I'm happy I picked it up in the sales late last year, but it has too many issues for me to feel it worth more than that.

But dang, I'm really mad about the trombones.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

@Evans How are you finding MSB 6 months later now?

Not a lot of reviews or demos or videos out there about it. One person here mentioned they thought it had a metallic sound (but wouldn’t that be expected given it is…brass?). After using Modern Scoring Strings, the flexibility of AB’s engine and attention to detail would’ve made me think MSB could be quite good (also on sale right now).


----------



## Evans

ALittleNightMusic said:


> @Evans How are you finding MSB 6 months later now?
> 
> Not a lot of reviews or demos or videos out there about it. One person here mentioned they thought it had a metallic sound (but wouldn’t that be expected given it is…brass?). After using Modern Scoring Strings, the flexibility of AB’s engine and attention to detail would’ve made me think MSB could be quite good (also on sale right now).


To be honest, I have not used it in a project since my last post, because I haven't had much time for personal projects and my only paid work recently has been on an old friend's album with just piano and strings sections. My project before that was for a brick and mortar store, with _only_ wooden percussion. So, yeah, no brass.

Funny enough, I did load it up this weekend for the first time in months, and I don't think I'll ever be willing to put in the work to make the upper dynamics - especially, trombones - behave to my tastes.

Even though *I'm not a seasoned professional* and therefore don't have frequent, rigid deadlines on amazing projects like a Daniel James (this album is a "when it's done" thing for a semi-retired rocker who wants to be Elton John), I still don't have any interest in fighting with those high dynamics on patches that I don't like, which is at least a third of them here, maybe half. That said, the main problems (in my opinion!) would be for someone creating a bombastic piece. Something like a video game RPG battle theme.

I still think the trumpets are fantastic, and soft dynamics are pretty good across the board. Audiobro's own YouTube videos show this off very well (as well as the disappointing, in my opinion, higher dynamics). It's also nice to have all those mutes.

But again, I'm a hobbyist - educated, but still a hobbyist - with the luck of a few small paid engagements per year. I do wholly believe that my opinion is less valuable here than most.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

48 hour 50% off sale happening on this now. $399 certainly makes this competitive and a more interesting option.


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> 48 hour 50% off sale happening on this now. $399 certainly makes this competitive and a more interesting option.


Call me crazy, i thought it was already in that range 😯 but I've had more and more curiosity about user experiences and demos with it since my satisfaction with MSS


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> Call me crazy, i thought it was already in that range 😯 but I've had more and more curiosity about user experiences and demos with it since my satisfaction with MSS


I think it was like $469 or something previously (on sale). Same core engine and sampling philosophy as MSS - and I believe @dxmachina is a brass player (I read that somewhere on their forum), so I imagine that had a lot to do with what they've achieved.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Couple of demos folks may not have heard before:



https://www.dropbox.com/s/66ew7xzxpzlhy2o/JB%20Theme%20Test.mp3?dl=0


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Couple of demos folks may not have heard before:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/66ew7xzxpzlhy2o/JB%20Theme%20Test.mp3?dl=0



What instruments did you use hear? Great work all around


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> What instruments did you use hear? Great work all around


These aren't mine, but saw them on the MSB forum. The Brahms one is all MSB for Brass and all Spitfire for the other instruments. The James Bond one was done by @dxmachina with MSB. Seems pretty punchy if you needed to go there.


----------



## dxmachina

Hi guys... I am a brass player but didn't do the Bond demo. I originally wrote an Intuition Brass-choir style demo that never got posted. Maybe I'll share it at some point unofficially. 

It's a little ways off since we're still finishing up LASS 3 now, but MSB is going to get a very nice update.


----------



## Noc

dxmachina said:


> Hi guys... I am a brass player but didn't do the Bond demo. I originally wrote an Intuition Brass-choir style demo that never got posted. Maybe I'll share it at some point unofficially.
> 
> It's a little ways off since we're still finishing up LASS 3 now, but MSB is going to get a very nice update.


“_Finishing_ up” LASS 3? You mean it’s actually nearing completion already? Honestly with how much work went into MSS updates I was expecting LASS 3 to get pushed back considerably, so if this is true it’s pretty grand.


----------



## Casiquire

dxmachina said:


> Hi guys... I am a brass player but didn't do the Bond demo. I originally wrote an Intuition Brass-choir style demo that never got posted. Maybe I'll share it at some point unofficially.
> 
> It's a little ways off since we're still finishing up LASS 3 now, but MSB is going to get a very nice update.


As much as I'm intrigued by the information about LASS and getting the update, that information about MSB is worth notice too and i don't want miss the possible significance of it, as someone who's increasingly interested in the brass. I'd love to hear your demo as well as a bunch more official ones, and any tidbits you're willing to share about the update. At least in these forums, i think the general vibe is that we just haven't heard enough of what it's capable of, and now, speaking for myself, I'm curious to hear it together with MSS


----------



## novaburst

Some very nice updates to look forward to from Audiobro always pushing and exploring every avenue to make things better.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Casiquire said:


> At least in these forums, i think the general vibe is that we just haven't heard enough of what it's capable of, and now, speaking for myself, I'm curious to hear it together with MSS


I’m just one opinion/use case, but if you’d like to hear MSS alongside MSB and haven’t seen the thread I made a while back, I’ll link it here:






Combining MSS, MSB, and Genesis - Stems Included


Hey all, Thought I'd put this in its own post for its own discussion. I put together a track using MSS, MSB, and Genesis to showcase how the libraries interact with each other (+ a bit of percussion from HWP non-opus): I also thought it would be interesting, and potentially useful, if...




vi-control.net





As the title indicates, stems are also available, so you can hear it completely OTB (albeit with a single setup) and mix it yourself to see how it’d fit into your sound.


----------



## Casiquire

Duncan Krummel said:


> I’m just one opinion/use case, but if you’d like to hear MSS alongside MSB and haven’t seen the thread I made a while back, I’ll link it here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Combining MSS, MSB, and Genesis - Stems Included
> 
> 
> Hey all, Thought I'd put this in its own post for its own discussion. I put together a track using MSS, MSB, and Genesis to showcase how the libraries interact with each other (+ a bit of percussion from HWP non-opus): I also thought it would be interesting, and potentially useful, if...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As the title indicates, stems are also available, so you can hear it completely OTB (albeit with a single setup) and mix it yourself to see how it’d fit into your sound.


Nope i have not seen that, thank you! I think MSB could use a soft "relaunch" in the sense of getting it out there a little more


----------



## Casiquire

Duncan Krummel said:


> I’m just one opinion/use case, but if you’d like to hear MSS alongside MSB and haven’t seen the thread I made a while back, I’ll link it here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Combining MSS, MSB, and Genesis - Stems Included
> 
> 
> Hey all, Thought I'd put this in its own post for its own discussion. I put together a track using MSS, MSB, and Genesis to showcase how the libraries interact with each other (+ a bit of percussion from HWP non-opus): I also thought it would be interesting, and potentially useful, if...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As the title indicates, stems are also available, so you can hear it completely OTB (albeit with a single setup) and mix it yourself to see how it’d fit into your sound.


Well according to my "likes" i HAVE seen that lol. And contrary to the comments there, the sound of all three in the same room is pretty nice to my ears. I don't feel like the brass is too weak


----------



## ansthenia

Is the look ahead feature in MSB the same as MSS? As in you just turn it on and all your quantised midi will be timed correctly for all articulations?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

ansthenia said:


> Is the look ahead feature in MSB the same as MSS? As in you just turn it on and all your quantised midi will be timed correctly for all articulations?


Not yet, but perhaps we'll get a similar feature when they next update MSB. For now, it really is meant for auto-divisi.


----------



## dxmachina

> “_Finishing_ up” LASS 3?


Yes, we've getting there. We still have a few rounds of testing and encoding and all that fun business. So we're not releasing this week - but we're still doing our best to get it out this year.



> I'd love to hear your demo as well as a bunch more official ones, and any tidbits you're willing to share about the update. At least in these forums, i think the general vibe is that we just haven't heard enough of what it's capable of, and now, speaking for myself, I'm curious to hear it together with MSS


I'm a bit reluctant to post it, but as an unofficial I don't mind. This was in the latter stages of development and done with just Intuition instruments (so no sampled legato here). There are better demos, and I somehow missed the work of @Duncan Krummel posted above (whose writing I really enjoy). 


Too early to get specific with update info on MSB, but I agree it will be worth another soft launch with some better audio examples. Not trying to sell you any copies here - if you don't like the tone you don't like it - but I personally think it's quite underrated here at VI anyway, and some of that (maybe more than some) is definitely on us.



> Is the look ahead feature in MSB the same as MSS? As in you just turn it on and all your quantised midi will be timed correctly for all articulations?


Right now the LookAhead in MSB handles quantization differences in instrument ranges. Lower instruments especially speak slowly in their lower registers... so it compensates with custom curves. Any update would almost certainly mean bringing in the new full LookAhead (which is especially designed to handle cleaner and more transparent legato).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dxmachina said:


> Hi guys... I am a brass player but didn't do the Bond demo. I originally wrote an Intuition Brass-choir style demo that never got posted. Maybe I'll share it at some point unofficially.
> 
> It's a little ways off since we're still finishing up LASS 3 now, but MSB is going to get a very nice update.


My fault - thought that was your demo. Either way, it was really well done! I think the generally brighter tone of MSB works for that piece. I haven’t heard a piece using MSB that is in a softer more choral style though.


----------



## Casiquire

dxmachina said:


> Yes, we've getting there. We still have a few rounds of testing and encoding and all that fun business. So we're not releasing this week - but we're still doing our best to get it out this year.
> 
> 
> I'm a bit reluctant to post it, but as an unofficial I don't mind. This was in the latter stages of development and done with just Intuition instruments (so no sampled legato here). There are better demos, and I somehow missed the work of @Duncan Krummel posted above (whose writing I really enjoy).
> 
> 
> Too early to get specific with update info on MSB, but I agree it will be worth another soft launch with some better audio examples. Not trying to sell you any copies here - if you don't like the tone you don't like it - but I personally think it's quite underrated here at VI anyway, and some of that (maybe more than some) is definitely on us.
> 
> 
> Right now the LookAhead in MSB handles quantization differences in instrument ranges. Lower instruments especially speak slowly in their lower registers... so it compensates with custom curves. Any update would almost certainly mean bringing in the new full LookAhead (which is especially designed to handle cleaner and more transparent legato).



This is EVERYTHING i wanted


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi

Casiquire said:


> Well according to my "likes" i HAVE seen that lol. And contrary to the comments there, the sound of all three in the same room is pretty nice to my ears. I don't feel like the brass is too weak


During the last weekend I finally found a small studio in my city, which has probably every library on this planet. They let me in for the weekend(as they don't work during weekends) and I finally got my hands on MSB and MSS(and SF's Abby Road, but that's different story...).
The brass library is amazing. The sound is convincing, clear, stable, controllable and strong, but in the same time very neutral. I had plenty of doubts before due to all the comments, but all of them disappeared in a few hours of playing with this library. I just can't understand how anyone can dislike it. I understand that we all have different preferences, but this library is objectively good - almost everything is there, the sound is solid, the control is on point, recordings/patches are agile(from full ensemble, to individual player).
I suppose people just didn't pay enough attention to auto divisi stuff and some other features that have to be set for different situations(and the fact that we have this kind of control is great, nothing to complain about).

The only thing I would add to this library is an equivalent of "Monster Brass" patches from CineBrass. I hate the childish tone of CB(no offence to anyone, I understand that it is a good library, it's just a matter of personal taste), and it includes those patches. But the idea of this FFFFFFFFFFFFF dynamic is cool and often useful. While MBS can sound loud and strong, this kind of dynamics is very special and can change the character of MBS even more if they add it as a dynamic layer(just imagine the level of dramatism we would be able to acheave with it 😱).

I also like how natural this library sounds with all kinds of algo reverbs. Ig it's due to that sonic neutrality. Speaking of neutrality - the sound itself is also very agile and responsive: it doesn't matter if you need darker or brighter tone, just use some good clean eq(I used Equilibrium) and it'll sound just like it was recorded this way - a very rare quality tbh.

Long story short, I can go on and on why this library is so great, but my main point is that it does sound strong and sound good. I think MBS didn't deserve to be bashed the way it was.
Sometimes it's truly amazing to see how absolutely terrible libraries, which have nothing but interesting recordings/sonic character, while being packed inside of some terrible sampler, with God awful layout, are getting blindly praised, but when something truly great and very well thought through appears, they suddenly open their "Meh" box.


----------



## Casiquire

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> During the last weekend I finally found a small studio in my city, which has probably every library on this planet. They let me in for the weekend(as they don't work during weekends) and I finally got my hands on MSB and MSS(and SF's Abby Road, but that's different story...).
> The brass library is amazing. The sound is convincing, clear, stable, controllable and strong, but in the same time very neutral. I had plenty of doubts before due to all the comments, but all of them disappeared in a few hours of playing with this library. I just can't understand how anyone can dislike it. I understand that we all have different preferences, but this library is objectively good - almost everything is there, the sound is solid, the control is on point, recordings/patches are agile(from full ensemble, to individual player).
> I suppose people just didn't pay enough attention to auto divisi stuff and some other features that have to be set for different situations(and the fact that we have this kind of control is great, nothing to complain about).
> 
> The only thing I would add to this library is an equivalent of "Monster Brass" patches from CineBrass. I hate the childish tone of CB(no offence to anyone, I understand that it is a good library, it's just a matter of personal taste), and it includes those patches. But the idea of this FFFFFFFFFFFFF dynamic is cool and often useful. While MBS can sound loud and strong, this kind of dynamics is very special and can change the character of MBS even more if they add it as a dynamic layer(just imagine the level of dramatism we would be able to acheave with it 😱).
> 
> I also like how natural this library sounds with all kinds of algo reverbs. Ig it's due to that sonic neutrality. Speaking of neutrality - the sound itself is also very agile and responsive: it doesn't matter if you need darker or brighter tone, just use some good clean eq(I used Equilibrium) and it'll sound just like it was recorded this way - a very rare quality tbh.
> 
> Long story short, I can go on and on why this library is so great, but my main point is that it does sound strong and sound good. I think this library didn't deserve to be bashed the way it was.
> Sometimes it's truly amazing to see how absolutely terrible libraries, which have nothing but interesting recordings/sonic character, while being packed inside of some terrible sampler, with God awful layout, are getting blindly praised, but when something truly great and very well thought through appears, they suddenly open their "Meh" box.


Does Sizzle help get you that extra power?


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi

Casiquire said:


> Does Sizzle help get you that extra power?


I tried it, but didn't like - sounds like it's just a Kontakt's eq. I generally don't use Kontakt effects as they sound really bad compared to dedicated tools.

If you meant my idea of Monster sounds - nope. You can't fake this. Brass instruments have a very big sonic difference from one dynamic to another.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Lack of demos and a somewhat naturally brighter and thinner tone are probably what held MSB back, at least on this forum. The engine is well-engineered and having individual instruments recorded is a rarity. I also imagine the tone is more malleable than wetter libraries, but that has not been sufficiently demonstrated. They've recorded a number of articulations and options (muted brass for example) - though perhaps less dynamic range (3?) than some others (ex. Berlin which should have 5 dynamics very soon). I think some early adopters paid closer to the MSRP price, which may have left a sour taste in their mouths.

Certainly a lot going for it, so a re-launch covering some of those initial questions would be worthwhile IMO.


----------



## soulofsound

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> I tried it, but didn't like - sounds like it's just a Kontakt's eq. I generally don't use Kontakt effects as they sound really bad compared to dedicated tools.


This is really important imo.


----------



## ansthenia

I was super close to buying this during the sale. Relieved the sale is over so I can stop thinking about it. It really is too much of a blind buy right now in terms of demos, I find the two demos and all the walkthroughs to be too obsessed with showing us the FF layer and not letting is really properly hear the lower dynamics well. And users typically seem to either greatly dislike it and never use it, or absolutely love it and think it needs more attention.


----------



## José Herring

dxmachina said:


> Yes, we've getting there. We still have a few rounds of testing and encoding and all that fun business. So we're not releasing this week - but we're still doing our best to get it out this year.
> 
> 
> I'm a bit reluctant to post it, but as an unofficial I don't mind. This was in the latter stages of development and done with just Intuition instruments (so no sampled legato here). There are better demos, and I somehow missed the work of @Duncan Krummel posted above (whose writing I really enjoy).
> 
> 
> Too early to get specific with update info on MSB, but I agree it will be worth another soft launch with some better audio examples. Not trying to sell you any copies here - if you don't like the tone you don't like it - but I personally think it's quite underrated here at VI anyway, and some of that (maybe more than some) is definitely on us.
> 
> 
> Right now the LookAhead in MSB handles quantization differences in instrument ranges. Lower instruments especially speak slowly in their lower registers... so it compensates with custom curves. Any update would almost certainly mean bringing in the new full LookAhead (which is especially designed to handle cleaner and more transparent legato).



Good job on this. Don't know why it didn't get posted. I hope Audio Bro reconsiders. The lack of actual brass demos on this library has got to be a seriously limiting sales factor.


----------



## Loerpert

How would MSB owners compare the legato's to other libraries that they own? Is there much versatility in programming transitions? And how does it handle romantic passages? Do they sound convincing enough?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

MSB and MSS are both wonderful and underrated libraries. They are really top-notch quality. Even for the full price they have no real competitor in terms of the content you get. It‘s REALLY a shame that new, hyped string libraries, with a similar price, which are awful, in my opinion, are bought instead. Audiobro should have better marketing. No demos come even close to the quality of the libraries. I would have never expected something like HS/HB or CSS/CSB only listening to the demos.

Sound-wise (character, emotion) and room-wise both libraries are similar to the ones I mentioned earlier. You have full control over your legato transitions and, as said, get many more features + divisi sections + modelled instruments. That makes three libraries in one!


----------



## zolhof

Loerpert said:


> How would MSB owners compare the legato's to other libraries that they own? Is there much versatility in programming transitions? And how does it handle romantic passages? Do they sound convincing enough?


Just to add up to what Pixel said, you can really tweak the transitions in MSB. The main patches offer a ton of control, but for me, the Intuition Series is the unsung hero of this library. Think of it as performance patches, designed for live performance with a keyboard or wind controller. They sound fantastic (I prefer the close+surround mics over the full mix), are extremely flexible, and yet straightforward to program. Props to @dxmachina for the scripting. I only wish AudioBro included the repetition key and short options (especially double tongue) from the main patches. 

As for expressive passages, here's an example straight out of Dorico:

View attachment MSB_Dogs_of_War.mp4

View attachment MSB_Kontakt.mp4


Reference track:
View attachment REF_Dogs_of_War.mp3


----------



## Loerpert

zolhof said:


> Just to add up to what Pixel said, you can really tweak the transitions in MSB. The main patches offer a ton of control, but for me, the Intuition Series is the unsung hero of this library. Think of it as performance patches, designed for live performance with a keyboard or wind controller. They sound fantastic (I prefer the close+surround mics over the full mix), are extremely flexible, and yet straightforward to program. Props to @dxmachina for the scripting. I only wish AudioBro included the repetition key and short options (especially double tongue) from the main patches.
> 
> As for expressive passages, here's an example straight out of Dorico:
> 
> View attachment MSB_Dogs_of_War.mp4
> 
> View attachment MSB_Kontakt.mp4
> 
> 
> Reference track:
> View attachment REF_Dogs_of_War.mp3


Holy smokes! Dogs of War is one of my all time favorite pieces. And this sounds incredible!!

Thanks for these examples. I just pulled the trigger, since this pulled me over the line 

Ps. How the beep have I not noticed this library for all these years.


----------



## John Longley

zolhof said:


> Just to add up to what Pixel said, you can really tweak the transitions in MSB. The main patches offer a ton of control, but for me, the Intuition Series is the unsung hero of this library. Think of it as performance patches, designed for live performance with a keyboard or wind controller. They sound fantastic (I prefer the close+surround mics over the full mix), are extremely flexible, and yet straightforward to program. Props to @dxmachina for the scripting. I only wish AudioBro included the repetition key and short options (especially double tongue) from the main patches.
> 
> As for expressive passages, here's an example straight out of Dorico:
> 
> View attachment MSB_Dogs_of_War.mp4
> 
> View attachment MSB_Kontakt.mp4
> 
> 
> Reference track:
> View attachment REF_Dogs_of_War.mp3


Sounds fantastic. I hope we get some better short options in the intuition patches. I think the lower prices will really raise the profile of these libraries.


----------



## soulofsound

zolhof said:


> The main patches offer a ton of control, but for me, the Intuition Series is the unsung hero of this library.


Definitely so. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Loerpert

Have been playing with MSB and MSS. My initial thoughts about it are quite positive. Pretty much everything about it is amazing. The only thing I get now is how some people call the sound boxy.

I think this has to do with the room. However with some EQ'ing and using Berlin Studio, I get pretty nice results. The instruments themselves are really configurable and expressive.

I wish MSB had the same options as MSS in regards to legato and the 'auto' settings. I heard Audiobro is working on an update for that?

The shorts don't sound that strong, but that doesn't bother me since i'm pretty much only using the legato.


----------



## zolhof

Loerpert said:


> Holy smokes! Dogs of War is one of my all time favorite pieces. And this sounds incredible!!
> 
> Thanks for these examples. I just pulled the trigger, since this pulled me over the line
> 
> Ps. How the beep have I not noticed this library for all these years.


Congrats, this warms my heart to read! MSB is a deep library, make sure to eat the manual for breakfast so you can make the most out of it. And thank you for the kinds words. 



John Longley said:


> Sounds fantastic. I hope we get some better short options in the intuition patches. I think the lower prices will really raise the profile of these libraries.


Appreciate it, John. Yeah, I hope the Intuition series can benefit from the upcoming engine update. Last I heard they were on early alpha (it's been a year?) but I have no idea what Sebastian is cooking for the new version. Something like the "fluid slider" from MSS would be really useful to control the shorts. Add the repetition key, and I'm in fanfare heaven.


----------



## Flyo

Hi, these last sales get my attention again now. I’m wondering if there is a way or a possible feature update which let you play shorts articulations based on midi note length as for example the synthesized Infinite Series?

Im thinking to work with both libraries for their strengths. I encounter that these play techniques for the shorts arts is the most fluid for better playability and composition. The keyswitch and others similar parameters for play or program shorts arts feels really unnatural


----------



## John Longley

Flyo said:


> Hi, these last sales get my attention again now. I’m wondering if there is a way or a possible feature update which let you play shorts articulations based on midi note length as for example the synthesized Infinite Series?
> 
> Im thinking to work with both libraries for their strengths. I encounter that these play techniques for the shorts arts is the most fluid for better playability and composition. The keyswitch and others similar parameters for play or program shorts arts feels really unnatural


Right now you have control between shorts with a CC in the regular patches. The intuition patches in MSB only have one staccato length right now, but hopefully better shorts will come in an update. As mentioned above MSS has variable shorts in the intuition patches. Nothing comparable to Infinite or SM yet.


----------



## Flyo

John Longley said:


> Right now you have control between shorts with a CC in the regular patches. The intuition patches in MSB only have one staccato length right now, but hopefully better shorts will come in an update. As mentioned above MSS has variable shorts in the intuition patches. Nothing comparable to Infinite or SM yet.


But this intuition lets you play shorts determine by note length also? I Can find much info about it. If you play and programs with these Intuition patches then you could translate all that info to the sampled one automatically?


----------



## John Longley

Flyo said:


> But this intuition lets you play shorts determine by note length also? I Can find much info about it. If you play and programs with these Intuition patches then you could translate all that info to the sampled one automatically?


No the intuition patches in MSB currently only have one staccato length. Hopefully that changes soon, but I have no info if that’s happening.


----------



## Flyo

John Longley said:


> No the intuition patches in MSB currently only have one staccato length. Hopefully that changes soon, but I have no info if that’s happening.


Thanks you mentioned this, but MSS already have it right? And these translate into the main sampled one?


----------



## dxmachina

zolhof said:


> I have no idea what Sebastian is cooking for the new version


More shorts are definitely coming for Intuition Brass - and quite a bit more. I have some much loftier goals for the engine that are taking some time. It's also a longtime personal project that has to sometimes take a back seat to other developments.

But I'm so glad to see more people discovering and using Intuition... I had a hunch it might just "click" for some folks, but you never know when it's your little technology baby.


----------



## Chocolino

Sorry for being off topic @dxmachina but can we wait for 2023, any new products? Beyond updates to existing products. Just a yes or a no.


----------



## Flyo

Hi, working with the intuition translate all that composition info to the main sampled one in MSS? Specially for shorts articulations


----------

