# Commercial Announcements Rules - Please read before posting!



## Mike Greene

*Two Commercial Announcements sections:*

This main Commercial Announcements section is for paying advertisers. (It costs as little as $19/month to qualify. See this page for rates and details.) Please post in this section *only* if you are currently advertising.

Commercial Announcements Tier 2 - is for everyone else. If you don’t wish to advertise, don't worry, we do still want you to post your announcements, but please do so in the Commercial Announcements Tier 2 section.

The primary difference between the two forums is that the main Commercial Announcements section (this one) is seen by everyone, both members and guests. The Commercial Announcements - Tier 2 section is only seen by members. (Guests comprise about 60% of the forum visits.)

For more details, as well as a discussion on this, visit this thread.

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*Safe Zone*

Note that Commercial Announcements are a “safe zone” for the companies who post. Negative comments or discussion about competing libraries are not allowed. Sample Talk and all other areas of the forum are free game, of course, but in this section, we ask that the companies not have to deal with any conflict.

With that said, some companies do allow negative posts in the Commercial Announcement threads, but please be cool about it.

*NEW: *_This "Safe Zone" applies only if the developer posts the thread, or if the developer is actively engaged in the thread. Sometimes regular members post threads in Sample Talk that are essentially Commercial Announcements, so we move them here, so as not to clutter Sample Talk, but free and honest (good or bad) discussion should still continue._

*NEW: DON'T BE A JERK - *_This one is tricky, because it's difficult to define "jerk," but a few recent examples include people feeling the need in Commercial Announcement threads to tell everyone they're *not* going to buy the release, often framed in the form of a joke, like, "My wallet is very happy!", but it should be obvious that "jokes" like this are at the expense of the developer, which is rude. (These are invariably from people with annoyingly high post counts, so a Corollary Rule would be: The forum is not starved for content, so you don't HAVE to post every thought that comes into your head.)

Also, show some awareness for when is the right time and when is the wrong time to ask about updates for *other* libraries. For example, if a developer announces a release, and you respond with, "Hey, when are you going to update OtherLibrary?", that's obviously inappropriate. Now, there are indeed times when it *is* okay to ask about updates. I've seen friendly questions like that in my Realitone announcements, for instance, and those have all been fine. So this one is kinda tricky, since some people have good social awareness while others don't. The bottom line is that if you're the type of person who can't easily tell the difference, then please stop completely with the "When are you ever going to update xxx???" posts, especially in Commercial Announcements threads._

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*Incentivized Thread Bumps*

Sometimes companies will post contests or other offers where people are encouraged to _"Post a comment to enter."_ It's a clever marketing trick, since it keeps the thread at the top of the Latest Posts feed, but this could quickly get out of hand. The forum is already very busy with normal threads (some, like me, might argue it's too busy), so we don't want to add to that.

Ultimately, the forum is intended for the benefit of the membership, not developers (even developers paying to advertise), so we don't allow threads where bumping is incentivized.


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## Mike Greene

I've added a new rule (in two parts) to address some annoying things certain people are in the habit of doing. Hopefully it's clear, but I'm temporarily unlocking this thread so that people who might be confused can ask for clarification.

*NEW: DON'T BE A JERK - *_This one is tricky, because it's difficult to define "jerk," but a few recent examples include people feeling the need in Commercial Announcement threads to tell everyone they're *not* going to buy the release, often framed in the form of a joke, like, "My wallet is very happy!", but it should be obvious that "jokes" like this are at the expense of the developer, which is rude. (These are invariably from people with annoyingly high post counts, so a Corollary Rule would be: The forum is not starved for content, so you don't HAVE to post every thought that comes into your head.)

Also, show some awareness for when is the right time and when is the wrong time to ask about updates for *other* libraries. For example, if a developer announces a release, and you respond with, "Hey, when are you going to update OtherLibrary?", that's obviously inappropriate. Now, there are indeed times when it *is* okay to ask about updates. I've seen friendly questions like that in my Realitone announcements, for instance, and those have all been fine. So this one is kinda tricky, since some people have good social awareness while others don't. The bottom line is that if you're the type of person who can't easily tell the difference, then please stop completely with the "When are you ever going to update xxx???" posts, especially in Commercial Announcements threads._


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## Henrik B. Jensen

A bit OT, but every now and then I manage to post inappropriate stuff in a Commercial Announcement-thread which I wouldn’t have posted if I’d been aware it was in fact a CA-thread and not a “normal” Sample talk-thread.

This could be a Me-problem (!) but I see others make the same mistake, unaware.

Would it be possible somehow to make the user aware they are in a CA-thread before they post? Or should we users just pull ourselves together and think a little before pressing Post reply?


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## d.healey

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> A bit OT, but every now and then I manage to post inappropriate stuff in a Commercial Announcement-thread which I wouldn’t have posted if I’d been aware it was in fact a CA-thread and not a “normal” Sample talk-thread.
> 
> This could be a Me-problem (!) but I see others make the same mistake, unaware.
> 
> Would it be possible somehow to make the user aware they are in a CA-thread before they post? Or should we users just pull ourselves together and think a little before pressing Post reply?


Perhaps it would be helpful if right below the box where we type our reply it would show us which forum we are posting in.

Oh wait...


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## sostenuto

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> A bit OT, but every now and then I manage to post inappropriate stuff in a Commercial Announcement-thread which I wouldn’t have posted if I’d been aware it was in fact a CA-thread and not a “normal” Sample talk-thread.
> 
> This could be a Me-problem (!) but I see others make the same mistake, unaware.
> 
> Would it be possible somehow to make the user aware they are in a CA-thread before they post? Or should we users just pull ourselves together and think a little before pressing Post replN


Likely much harder than thought, but small flashing '*red*' dot /asterisk /exclamation point in left corner where post text starts ?? Mainly for honest errors. Others will keep doing same, regardless.


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## Casiquire

d.healey said:


> Perhaps it would be helpful if right below the box where we type our reply it would show us which forum we are posting in.
> 
> Oh wait...


Not on my end. I would love to have that always visible. Not to derail this important post but I do think it would go a long way to make sure this is visible on all devices.

Anyway back to rereading and reflecting on the updates, and how I can contribute (or withhold) to help improve this place I enjoy so much too.


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## Henrik B. Jensen

Maybe make the Post reply-button red too

Edit: Only in Commercial A. threads, I mean


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## jbuhler

d.healey said:


> Perhaps it would be helpful if right below the box where we type our reply it would show us which forum we are posting in.
> 
> Oh wait...


Except I don't get that reminder when I post on my phone, which is about half the time. You have to go to the top of the page to see which forum I'm looking at.


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## Henrik B. Jensen

I think @d.healey simply cut out the line from the top of the page and inserted it in a photo like that to show what he meant.


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## d.healey

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I think @d.healey simply cut out the line from the top of the page and inserted it in a photo like that to show what he meant.


Nope, I just posted exactly what I see in my browser. Although I had my ad-blocker enabled so in reality there is an ad between the bottom of the input box and the breadcrumb line.


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## ka00

In my opinion, no need to redesign the site. Now that the rules have been amended, it should just be about enforcement. Hopefully that's not a jerk thing to say!


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## jbuhler

d.healey said:


> Nope, I just posted exactly what I see in my browser. Although I had my ad-blocker enabled so in reality there is an ad between the bottom of the input box and the breadcrumb line.


Yeah, on my phone there is another running head for the forum at the bottom but the ad pushes it out of view (both the bottom ad and the tall sidebar ad appear at the bottom on the phone) whereas even with my ad blocker off, the ad at the bottom of the commercial site still allows the bottom running head to be visible when I'm typing a post.


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## Trash Panda

d.healey said:


> Perhaps it would be helpful if right below the box where we type our reply it would show us which forum we are posting in.
> 
> Oh wait...


That little navigation area is buried about a screen’s worth or more of scrolling beyond the reply box on mobile.


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## Batrawi

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Maybe make the Post reply-button red too
> 
> Edit: Only in Commercial A. threads, I mean


exactly what i was going to suggest... color coding is the solution here, otherwise people very often forget where they are posting. Just search a single library name and good luck counting how many threads will pop up!


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## sostenuto

No ad-blocker / Win11 Pro _ this is what I see.


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## Mike Greene

I think you guys may be over-thinking the _"How can I tell if I'm in a CA thread"_ problem. 

If you make a mistake, then you make a mistake, and that's fine. We can always delete or remove posts if needed, no harm, no foul. Plus, bear in mind that most companies don't even mind if you write critical posts in their announcement threads anyway, so it usually doesn't even matter.

The "new rule" I'm talking about is more of a _"Don't be a jerk"_ kind of thing, which is totally different from not realizing what sub-forum you're in. Not to get too meta about it, but the fact that you're concerned you may be making mistakes shows self-reflection, which automatically means you're probably not a jerk. As opposed to the sort of person who posts _"My wallet is very happy!"_ after a developer explains what his product is about, since that person is likely someone who doesn't concern himself with thoughts about whether he's being annoying.

It's a sad paradox where the people who _don't_ need to be told what the rules are, are the same people who worry the most about them, which is obviously the opposite of what we want.

Not to go off on a tangent, but this is why I'm often reluctant to post new rules. 99% of the people here don't even need rules. At all. (Seriously, do Henrik or David or most of the other people here need _me_ to tell them what's cool and what isn't? Of course not.) Unfortunately, though, the 99% who _don't_ need rules tend to be the same people who worry _they're_ the ones that a new rule is intended for. While on the flip side, the people I _am_ making the rule for tend to be completely oblivious.

Full disclosure, the main purpose for these rules is so when we delete posts (or in some cases, ban persistent offenders), we can point to "a rule," since these guys tend to be very much into _"If there's no rule against it, then I should be able to say what I want!"_


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## sostenuto

Mike Greene said:


> I think you guys may be over-thinking the _"How can I tell if I'm in a CA thread"_ problem.
> 
> If you make a mistake, then you make a mistake, and that's fine. We can always delete or remove posts if needed, no harm, no foul. Plus, bear in mind that most companies don't even mind if you write critical posts in their announcement threads anyway, so it usually doesn't even matter.
> 
> The "new rule" I'm talking about is more of a _"Don't be a jerk"_ kind of thing, which is totally different from not realizing what sub-forum you're in. Not to get too meta about it, but the fact that you're concerned you may be making mistakes shows self-reflection, which automatically means you're probably not a jerk. As opposed to the sort of person who posts _"My wallet is very happy!"_ after a developer explains what his product is about, since that person is likely someone who doesn't concern himself with thoughts about whether he's being annoying.
> 
> It's a sad paradox where the people who _don't_ need to be told what the rules are, are the same people who worry the most about them, which is obviously the opposite of what we want.
> 
> Not to go off on a tangent, but this is why I'm often reluctant to post new rules. 99% of the people here don't even need rules. At all. (Seriously, do Henrik or David or most of the other people here need _me_ to tell them what's cool and what isn't? Of course not.) Unfortunately, though, the 99% who _don't_ need rules tend to be the same people who worry _they're_ the ones that a new rule is intended for. While on the flip side, the people I _am_ making the rule for tend to be completely oblivious.
> 
> Full disclosure, the main purpose for these rules is so when we delete posts (or in some cases, ban persistent offenders), we can point to "a rule," since these guys tend to be very much into _"If there's no rule against it, then I should be able to say what I want!"_


OP post seemed notably reasonable. Many have been chastised, within the Commercial Forum, for failing to abide by Forum rules for COMMERCIAL Thread posting. Most Replying posts tried to help by proposing minimal changes in COMMERCIAL Thread to simply alert every responder that they are on this THREAD ! Why ignore multiple suggestions having nothing to do with changing rules in any way ? Many trying honestly to suggest ways to simply 'highlight' that Users are 'in fact' on the COMMERCIAL Thread. If these suggestions are technically difficult /costly, then no problem whatsoever.


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## ka00

If there is one change to how the site works I would want (and I’ve mentioned it before) it’s that if you have someone on ignore, it would be great if you didn’t inadvertently also automatically ignore a 500-post thread they started on a particular library.

There are some mega-threads on this forum that are started by a person I’ve had to ignore to improve my “user experience” let’s say, and the way the ignore feature works now, I end up not seeing those entire threads at all not just the ignored posts by that one user.


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## Henrik B. Jensen

sostenuto said:


> OP post seemed notably reasonable. Many have been chastised, within the Commercial Forum, for failing to abide by Forum rules for COMMERCIAL Thread posting. Most Replying posts tried to help by proposing minimal changes in COMMERCIAL Thread to simply alert every responder that they are on this THREAD ! Why ignore multiple suggestions having nothing to do with changing rules in any way ? Many trying honestly to suggest ways to simply 'highlight' that Users are 'in fact' on the COMMERCIAL Thread. If these suggestions are technically difficult /costly, then no problem whatsoever.


I think @Mike Greene and @Jdiggity1 believe this is a tiny problem blown a bit out of proportion and that a GUI change is unnecessary babysitting, considering we users can just be a little mindful about where we’re posting and then there’s no problem  That’s fair enough if so (and they’re probably right!)


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## sostenuto

Appreciate your rationale, yet perhaps fair to acknowledge enthusiasm by many VI-C Users, who are impressed with new Post(s), and wish to comment immediately _ albeit incorrectly by Forum rules / etiquette. 
Will just repeat _ _have no clue if proposed GUI changes are difficult/costly in relation to benefits gained._ if so _ moving forward positively and with respect for what Forum brings 24/7.


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## Jdiggity1

There's always room for improvements with user experience and GUI, etc. The suggestions don't get ignored, it's just that VI-C doesn't exactly have a web developer to implement whatever demands we throw at them.
The site uses pre-built forum software that makes it 'easy enough' for the mods (volunteers) to make general changes, but there's not a lot we can do outside of its constraints.

I think part of Mike's point is that you shouldn't hesitate to post in fear of retribution - as long as you had no bad intentions behind your post. We delete or move posts and threads all the time, and especially in the case of commercial announcement threads, it's simply in the interests of housekeeping. Nobody gets a strike against their name, and it's simply not a big deal.
If you're having *other members* scold you for your posts, forgettaboutit! It's not their job to enforce the rules.

Each subforum has a stickied thread that lays out whatever rules are in place (if any). That's probably going to be the extent of hand-holding provided for a while.


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## Pier

@Mike Greene if you need a hand with the site I'd be happy to help. I've been in web dev since the 90s.


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