# Spitfire Audio had left the building for a week



## Giant_Shadow (Dec 6, 2013)

Confirmed from Christian. But looks like they will be back in a week, but for now if you need assistance or have a question you should probably fill out a request through the Spitfire website.

**EDIT** See Paul's/Spitfire's response/update at the top of page 4.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

:shock:


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## dedersen (Dec 6, 2013)

What, really?! That's a huge surprise, honestly, even with the recent outbursts. Seems to me that for every post that unfairly criticize Spitfire, there are ten that offer fair criticism or simply overflow with praise. It's not like the silent majority is really THAT silent on VI-C.

What a shame. They seem like such nice chaps! I am quite disappointed with their decision. I hope they reconsider, their precensce here is really valuable to the forums as well as to their company, I believe.


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## valexnerfarious (Dec 6, 2013)

TBH..i dont blame them one bit...most of what i saw was people hating on HZ and other products


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## doctornine (Dec 6, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> TBH..i dont blame them one bit...most of what i saw was people hating on HZ and other products



+1

~o)


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## Giant_Shadow (Dec 6, 2013)

It was ugly in places for a while, but perhaps there resources are better spent elsewhere for a little while as Paul has posted at the top of page 4 now. I know comments from one well known reviewer may have been taken personally after allot of hard work by the Spits gang and also some negative comments in the Mural thread.


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## Stiltzkin (Dec 6, 2013)

Don't blame them either - overall I find myself visiting this site less and less so recently, now only the sample talk + commercial announcements threads.

It's just quite uninspiring to read the thoughts of so many people that are, apparently, very uninspired and angry with what they do for a living. Negativity breeds quickly and you don't want that in your head when you are trying to create something awesome.


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## dcoscina (Dec 6, 2013)

doctornine @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> valexnerfarious @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > TBH..i dont blame them one bit...most of what i saw was people hating on HZ and other products
> ...



+2


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## noxtenebrae17 (Dec 6, 2013)

This forum has become a tough place to be a developer. A lot of the developers around here seemed to have backed off from a lot of the more "controversial" threads and I can totally understand why. The forum is becoming less supportive and more critical. Which is fine for some but I, and I assume the Spitfire guys, believe it is often not worth the time and emotional investment.

For the record, I find the Spitfire guys products to be top notch, and I always try to respectfully let them know (through their support system) when I think they could make things better. Works better for both sides.


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## dedersen (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't know, it seems to me like the Spitfire crew were actually getting a nicer treatment than a lot of other developers here. Which was well deserved, of course! Still, it's a shame that they seem to focus perhaps a bit too much on some of the really unfair posts that pop up from time to time. 

I can see why it's difficult not to take it very personally, considering the pashion that the Spitfire crew so clearly bring to their products. But overall, I just feel like every time one of those more obnoxious comments have appeared, the remainder of the thread has usually taken a turn towards praise of Spitfire, both in terms of their products but equally in terms of their stellar support and the general way they approach the business.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 6, 2013)

I kinda depended on their presence here to keep my up to date. 

Hope they come back


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 6, 2013)

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. They get sooooo much positive response inhere. They can't as a professional business expect all customer relation to be all roses. That is IMHO immature and unprofessionel. Of course they are not bound to be here, but leaving just because of one or two borderline negative conversations here does not make them look good.

Looking forward to every one of their upcoming products nevertheless!


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## KingIdiot (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I see this happen time and time again. For developers they feel it's better to just lay off and healthier in the long run because stress and worrying for a small vocal crowd and being involved in the politics can get tiresome. Passion and the inherent indirect nature of the internet/forum posting dynamic makes things really exhausting in certain states of mind.

that said, I'm really bummed at a lot of the interaction in general anyway, I've seen lately. It's almost all in promotion threads and direct discussion of new product, and very little in anything else. So why would it matter much to see most developers take a step back? There will likely still be advertisements and announcement threads from everyone.

It's a difficult line to tow, and energies are best suited spent in new product.

Hiring a level headed liaison would probably go a long way, though, for all these guys.

can we get a new comic? Please, comic master!?


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## Walid F. (Dec 6, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Sorry, but that is ridiculous. They get sooooo much positive response inhere. They can't as a professional business expect all customer relation to be all roses. That is IMHO immature and unprofessionel. Of course they are not bound to be here, but leaving just because of one or two borderline negative conversations here does not make them look good.



+1000.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 6, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Sorry, but that is ridiculous. They get sooooo much positive response inhere. They can't as a professional business expect all customer relation to be all roses. That is IMHO immature and unprofessionel. Of course they are not bound to be here, but leaving just because of one or two borderline negative conversations here does not make them look good.
> 
> Looking forward to every one of their upcoming products nevertheless!



Agreed ^ 100%.


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## Walid F. (Dec 6, 2013)

I thought this forum was for discussing samples, products and overall music talk. Why are people cognizing criticism against products as negative sentiments? If I don't like some aspects of a product, should I be quiet or vocal about it? It appears that in this thread, many people seem to agree that constructive criticism should be kept to oneself, since it will only piss developers off and voila - they leave.

It's a forum for improvement, for knowledge and for fun. Developers post here and read here to learn what their customers want, what their customers think about their products and what they can do better or what they have done well that they should continue doing. And if giving feedback (read: honest feedback) which attends to perceived subjective flaws of a product is received by negativity and flaming, what happens when we decide not to be vocal of our concerns? I'll tell you: the products get inferior and the customer/developer interaction diminishes.

But if all people want is to glorify everything, and not actually strive for improvement... I love SF stuff, but some things can be improved like anything - Nothing is perfect, but we can try to achieve better things for us all.

Saying that they are received by negativity and what not that other people have said previously in this thread, "understanding why they left", is quite strange as they are praised as one of the greatest developers on this forum. One thread comes along and starts attending to issues with their products - they leave and the people start blaming the ones who stated the subjective flaws. Very strange indeed.


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## JPQ (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

If they go out this forum i must say makes me think what *something what i dont want wrote*... but all choice of course itself but such nice sounding products makes me think even more get them someday or not but very likely not becouse even basic things what i think i need eats much money... to me these are special tools not basic tools like project sam symphobia and unlike project sam orchestral brass classic. give examples form products which many people know.


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## ysnyvz (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

i thought spitfire is the most beloved developer in here 
i don't really get it :?


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## dedersen (Dec 6, 2013)

Walid F. @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> It appears that in this thread, many people seem to agree that constructive criticism should be kept to oneself, since it will only piss developers off and voila - they leave.


I don't see any posts in this thread that suggests this should be the case. Interestingly, it's a discussion that seems to turn up a lot recently here at VI, perhaps because the general tone has taken a turn for the worse. There are many ways you can state you criticism, and even with the inherent inadequacies of the written word, there are ways of expressing your opinion that I think it should be obvious are of benefit to noone. Unfortunately, lately we've seen a bit more of these kinds of 'feedback'.

That said, I am very surprised that Spitfire feels like they have been subject to much of this sort of critique. Have I missed something?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Well, this doesn't make me feel very good...

Despite having been a little harsh with my criticism of the Sable legato, I never anticipated such a reaction.

I have regretted posting that comment as soon as I realized I had pissed off Paul...

but I am still hoping for an improved legato  
They HAVE been amazing with the regularity of their upgrades.
I was just concerned that at the speed at which they put out new products, older series' development would suffer.
But I realize the rate of their putting out new products is none of my business...
That rate is pretty amazing and to me, it feels like they are becoming one of the bigger companies out there (and justifiably so!)

And that may explain also why they are taking a step back...


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## stevetwist (Dec 6, 2013)

Walid F. @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> It's a forum for improvement, for knowledge and for fun. Developers post here and read here to learn what their customers want, what their customers think about their products and what they can do better or what they have done well that they should continue doing. And if giving feedback (read: honest feedback) which attends to perceived subjective flaws of a product is received by negativity and flaming, what happens when we decide not to be vocal of our concerns? I'll tell you: the products get inferior and the customer/developer interaction diminishes.
> .



I feel the same way. I REALLY appreciate the constructive feedback that I see in the forum. Granted, some of it definitely borderlines on the 'less constructive' side, and I'd be happy to see those kind of comments perhaps become a little more restrained. But the constructive criticism, I believe, is one of the things that makes vi-control so valuable, both to the consumers and the developers.

For the developers, I really do feel that listening to the feedback of people who use their software, day-in, day-out, helps them make a better product.

And for myself, as a consumer, it's really helpful to see what other people are feeling about a product. It's helped me develop a better appreciation for what to look for when considering a purchase, and I know to take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt - just because someone likes/dislikes something doesn't mean I will - but knowing WHY they like/dislike something really helps me understand if I'd feel the same way.

So, I do think it's a shame if developers are being put off from participating in the customer feedback loop that we have here, at vi-control.

Steve


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## benmrx (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

+1 on this being a little odd..., and honestly seems like there's some 'read between the lines' stuff going on here, with some 'read between the fingers' attitude. If I had to pick a single developer that got the MOST praise on VI-Control it would absolutely be Spitfire, no question. 

However, they certainly didn't hold back in hyping the HZ library. For a LOOOONG time too. And then, when release came, maybe they had just built it up too much. If you're going to tag a famous composers name to the 'TITLE' of your product, then you should expect people to assume it's going to give them the sound of said composer. If those people think that's not the case when demos start coming out, then it's not their fault! I know, that I for one was expecting a very different library based on the information from SF since the product was announced. Maybe it will all come to fruition when the other artist mixes are released, but I'm not assuming anything.

If there's going to be some unwritten rule here that you can't do anything except praise everyones work and products..., well then it's not a very healthy environment. That doesn't do anyone any good. If all the major developers here had the same attitude towards this as SF, then NO ONE would be here!! 

FWIW, I have a few SF products and love them all. Top shelf indeed.


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## AC986 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



KingIdiot @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> because stress and worrying for a small vocal crowd and being involved in the politics can get tiresome



I think that's about as close to it I've read here so far.

And as far as I can make out this library is predominantly single hits? It sounds great but I just wonder if a lot of the kids that like big percussion bangs and maybe thought they were going to get loops like in say, Damage and become an instant HZ. Without having to have to make much of an effort. 
As opposed to the effort that must have gone in on producing a 50 gig plus gargantuan of just percussion. That's a lot of time, money and stress. And it's always a gamble.


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## syashdown (Dec 6, 2013)

To be honest Spitfire have no duty to be on here and don't 'need' to be able to take criticism from people on an internet forum. In a perfect world yes, they would handle it all fine. But maybe they are sensitive about what is perceived as unfair criticism (that is delivered in a sometimes cynical attitude) and don't want to waste time and energy in getting caught up in it all. I'm sure they will still receive suggestions for changes and development through the usual channels, without having to read through some of the more rant-style posts that are sometimes delivered here in a slightly disrespectful tone. 

Basically I trust they are dealing with the situation in a way that works for them, which is their right. I'm sure they will continue delivering excellent products regardless of whether some people on an internet forum get judgemental about how they dealt with this situation.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



benmrx @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> +1 on this being a little odd..., and honestly seems like there's some 'read between the lines' stuff going on here, with some 'read between the fingers' attitude. If I had to pick a single developer that got the MOST praise on VI-Control it would absolutely be Spitfire, no question.
> 
> However, they certainly didn't hold back in hyping the HZ library. For a LOOOONG time too. And then, when release came, maybe they had just built it up too much. If you're going to tag a famous composers name to the 'TITLE' of your product, then you should expect people to assume it's going to give them the sound of said composer. If those people think that's not the case when demos start coming out, then it's not their fault! I know, that I for one was expecting a very different library based on the information from SF since the product was announced. Maybe it will all come to fruition when the other artist mixes are released, but I'm not assuming anything.
> 
> ...




Spot on benmrx,

The buildup to HZ percussion was one of the biggest I had seen on this forum. Huge anticipation. Yes they did sample the hell out of the percussion but at the end of the day it is still only samples of percussion. Not a free dinner and fate with Hans, not a record contract, just some cool sounding drums. I watched this from a distance as was quite confused at the level of anticipation. Yes, it's cool that one of the world's best film composers was involved in this but, again, you don't get his talent when you buy the product. You get some drums. You probably have a lot of drums already. 

I do think it is curious that the SF team has left this forum as I would assume a lot of sales are generated here. When you are a business and sell a product you open your selves up to mass adulation and mass negative criticism. Seemed to me that they had way more of the former than the latter on this forum. I've seen people literally murder Steinberg and East West here. Oh well, as they say, wait 5 minutes and another crisis will come along.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Personally, I thought the first batch of demos didn't fully showcase the possibilities of the library.
I never had any doubt about the library itself after hearing the walkthrough...

Using HZ1 right now and it totally kicks ass.

Telling them the first batch of demos wasn't totally doing it was, in my intent, an attempt at helping out, believe it or not.
Lot of people judge a product on its demos....


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## Ozymandias (Dec 6, 2013)

Have they actually left or have they simply handed over their presence to the new Spitfire Rep?

If it's the latter, it seems like a sensible move to me.


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## playz123 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Giant_Shadow @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Confirmed from Christian. I hope they decide to comeback, but for now if you need assistance or have a question you will have to fill out a request through the Spitfire website. Very disappointed.


Before I can comment, I'd really like to know what they actually said and the extent of their decision. For example, just because they want people to submit questions and requests for assistance to them directly doesn't mean they won't participate here in any way, shape or form. And if they have said they are finished with the forum in every way, then I have to ask.. why? They sure get a lot of 'love' here, and I think many of the comments are more supportive and constructive than outright negative. And finally, they have a lot of loyal customers who contribute to this site, so why would they just walk away? I for one have always appreciated having them as forum members. Yes, some people tend to mouth off once in awhile, but overall that happens everywhere. If they have left the building, then it's a big loss for all of us, and I for one would be most disappointed in them and that type of decision.


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## germancomponist (Dec 6, 2013)

2 days without internet and then reading this?????


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



dpasdernick @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> I've seen people literally murder Steinberg and East West here.



Literally?! Wow, that really is a tough crowd.

Gee, I dunno. I mean, I left in a hissy fit a year or two back, but that was over moderation issues (ironically over what I perceived was unfair and aggressive behaviour from a mod towards a developer). I tend to agree that

a) this is an open forum and open debate is its greatest strength

b) Spitfire have arguably the highest amount of positive posts of any developer here.

On the other hand, they're super-busy and I can see them just saying "we just don't have the time", and fair enough if that's all it is - but some of the recent posts have suggested more personal motivations.

Although there are always a few nasty / thoughtless posts that crop up from time to time, I'd far rather take an open forum over one either severely moderated or one where _literally _everyone had to be permanently sychophantic in order to keep all the developers on the boards.

In summary - it's all a bit odd.


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## Ed (Dec 6, 2013)

Speaking of HZP demos just keep subtly nudging Hans that it would be really cool if he did even a really short demo.... Then maybe when he finishes his current work he might do one 

As much as I would like the world to entertain me, which means I was disappointed when Maarten and TJ stopped posting, it can easily consume your life so that's probably a good decision by them. I can also easily see how they could take criticism to heart. I certainly would find it hard not to if I had spent such a lot of time on something.


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## germancomponist (Dec 6, 2013)

Of course I respect any decision by Spitfire. 

They should not be discouraged by amateurs who have no idea of ​​the matter!!!!!!!!


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 6, 2013)

This is definitely disappointing. I get all my Spitfire news through VI. Their HZ percussion thread has more posts and views than just about anything I've ever seen - almost 100,000! I think most any developer would love to have numbers like that. Plus, as others have mentioned, Spitfire is perhaps THE most respected and revered developers around with one of the highest standards for library production. A real shame that they're leaving over the tiny % of negative feedback.


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## milesito (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Honestly, product development has a lot to do with customer feedback. I would think that any smart developer would be in these forums to hear first hand how their products are received and can be improved. I would assume that most successful developers are taking in the feedback.

As for Spitfire, they are so cordial, responsive, and their products are excellent....which means they must be well connected to their customer base. 

As long as they don't' take customer service tips from Native Instruments, they'll continue to be in good shape.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

How strange, people gush over their products here regularly. The first HZ demos were not all representative of the library and people merely gave their honest opinion. I don't recall it being harsh.

What is really strange is that they have said before how much they value the feedback in order to improve their products. So I hope this doesn't mean they won't be listening to feedback here any more. It's much easier to discuss things here than send feedback to Spitfire support.

I like the Cinesamples approach of "If we can satisfy the V.I. Control group then we know it's pretty good". 

I think the real reason is that Spitfire are releasing too many products and can't keep posting here for every one! That would be tiring having to partake in a thread for every product at the rate they're going.

Besides what does leaving a forum mean anyways? You're always a click away...


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## Polarity (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



> Spitfire Audio have left the building



Really? :shock: 
Well, I saw some criticism but ... to make them flee?
However I just followed the HZPercussion thread, not others involving Spitfire products,
so I could have missed something.

Myself too was hard on the Connect/continuata download system but, man...
that's not even a product developed by them...
and my grumbling was more directed at you users for sharing experience and tips than to SF crew. 
Otherwise I would use the support ticket, as I did with CineSamples for a download related question.
Felt guilty, then, but perhaps I understood - from a post on the HZPerc thread - that they probably left already before I even posted that I was (finally) about to buy and begin to download...
and after that today the grumbling got on fire. 

Well, don't know what to say more.

It's pity they left, I saw a lot of positive consideration here towards them.

All the best.


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I believe that Paul and Christian are creators. They want to create music, and they want to create sample libraries to create that music.

Perhaps they just decided to focus their time on what they really love doing. I am sure that is something we can all identify with.


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## MA-Simon (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Hm... Spitfire beeing on this forum and speaking to the people was a major reason why I bought all those libraries in the first place. 

With Berlin Strings, Adagietto & Cinestrings, I can't see how abandoning the ship with Mural out in the open is the best move right now?

Auch andere Mütter haben schöne Töchter.


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## Giant_Shadow (Dec 6, 2013)

I believe the tipping point were comments made in the Spitfire Mural thread. 

I hope after things cool down, they will at least allow Spitfire Rep to answer questions and make product announcements, etc. Just keep it all business.


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



milesito @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> As long as they don't' take customer service tips from Native Instruments, they'll continue to be in good shape.



+1 :lol: 

Although I think Spitfire (or any other sample library developer) would benefit greatly by being here and taking an active part of the discussion regarding their products. The feedback generated on this forum is after all mostly constructive and helpful , and I would think it is very valuable to the companies present here. I hope they'll return to V.I. Control in full form shortly..


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## playz123 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Stephen Rees @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> I believe that Paul and Christian are creators. They want to create music, and they want to create sample libraries to create that music.
> 
> Perhaps they just decided to focus their time on what they really love doing. I am sure that is something we can all identify with.



I do understand your point Stephen, and certainly can't disagree. But also many other people here are creators too, whether it be music or libraries or whatever, yet still need and appreciate input from others on what we do. One-sided dialogues are not very effective either, so their input is as important as ours. I believe the success of their business has been due, in part, to the support of VI forum members.


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## Maestro77 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I also agree that Spitfire probably gets more praise in this forum than any other developer. If their decision to cease posting here is due to their desire to get back to composing, or another similar reason, then that's one thing. But certainly strange to hear this news about the most glorified developer and I can't help but think it'll hurt their business. I too, get most of my Spitfire news here (product announcements, helpful tips). I've noticed their Facebook posts are sometimes a few days behind. A head scratcher for sure..


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## Diffusor (Dec 6, 2013)

Surely I don't know what people are talking about on claiming Spitfire was bashed on this forum. I never say anything rude in anybody's criticisms. They by far get a majority of praise in this forum, more than any other developer I bet.


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## synthetic (Dec 6, 2013)

Understandable. This can be a bitchy forum. Of course all forums are. And then the cool people leave and the bitchy people don't.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Hate for HZ Perc? Where? Please direct me to it?

So they get some criticism......... they then feel the need to leave? This is pretty soft IMO. If this is the actual reason of course.

Why do people always listen to the negatives, rather than the positives?

The way I see it, they get way more praise than negative feedback. People even buy their products without even listen to a single demo. That's saying something right?


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## Hannes_F (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

My theory is that a certain amount of criticism can actually help the sales of a developer.

Why? Because if the product itself is good then for every criticism there are jumping ten or more supporters into a thread. And the thread goes on and on and on, click counts are immensurable and the name of the developer stays in front of everybody's consciousness. And all that for free.

I am very sure even EW generates sales for every complain over Play in this forum. Actually I think that a product that is never criticised is practically dead marketing-wise.

The problem is of course how not to let the tiny % of criticism get near to you on a personal level if you are a sensitive artist. Not easy, for sure. 

I also have a feeling that Christian the composer got a bit into the way of Christian the sample developer with the first demos because he wanted to jump in with both feet at a time by delivering a sample demo and an artistic statement in one while most clients had expected to learn how the drums work in more generic music. To get rejection at this point must surely hurt.


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## KingIdiot (Dec 6, 2013)

synthetic @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Understandable. This can be a bitchy forum. Of course all forums are. And then the cool people leave and the bitchy people don't.



screw you man! (edit: joke, sacasm hahaha funny synthetic's an old timer I can make fun of his post.. derr herr, laughidly laughily lol)


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## Dan Mott (Dec 6, 2013)

synthetic @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Understandable. This can be a bitchy forum. Of course all forums are. And then the cool people leave and the bitchy people don't.



Imagine if this forum was all one sided? Then I think I would actually leave. If there weren't any interesting debates. Differences in opinions. Different tastes. Criticism. This place would be dull.

I think it's actually uncool of them to leave. Now when someone has a problem, they won't be around here to help.

Nice job.


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## Greg (Dec 6, 2013)

Uh did I miss something? Oh well, more time for them to spend on development :D


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## Cowtothesky (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Aren't we jumping the gun a little? They haven't officially said anything, have they? At this point, it is just hearsay. 

But, if the OP was correct, I think it is a big mistake. There is so much positive response here about their products. I found out about Spitfire through this forum and have, as a result, purchased 6 of their libraries. I love seeing posts by developers and creators. After all, that's what we all are. Right?

I don't buy the 'no time' thing though. Hans Zimmer has time to post here, and I can't imagine anyone more busy than him. 

Just ignore the bitchy people, but verify if their concern is valid. That's how I would handle it. At any rate, I'm sure they will make the right decision. I think the general consensus is that there is a LOT of love here for Spitfire and their products.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 6, 2013)

Dan Mott @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> I think it's actually uncool of them to leave. Now when someone has a problem, they won't be around here to help.



Well, the stock response is to get a ticket, as you were always supposed to. Thing is, forums work very differently and imo definitely have their place alongside.

I had problems with Connect last weekend and got myself a support ticket. But it was a weekend, and had no expectation that they should jump to my relatively trivial request for manual links, so went to the thread. Now, today I see Korgscrew has posted how to get manual links for any Spitfire library you own - if I'd have seen that at the weekend, I'd have been sorted (and in fact no need to get a ticket in the first place, and saving someone some hassle). It's a decent example of how forum members help each other and can stop us all cluttering up official support with endless fairly trivial things.

Ironically, all this has come just when we're donating to VI-C for all the help they regularly give us....


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## Giant_Shadow (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I don't start rumors, I just wanted people to know if they need help they had to do it directly now and not on this forum for the week they were away.

It certainly didnt help me as I had a last minute question about Enigma PM to SP Rep that unfortunately did not get a reply and I missed the sale price. But it's Ok.

_-) 



Cowtothesky @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Aren't we jumping the gun a little? They haven't officially said anything, have they? At this point, it is just hearsay.
> 
> But, if the OP was correct, I think it is a big mistake. There is so much positive response here about their products. I found out about Spitfire through this forum and have, as a result, purchased 6 of their libraries. I love seeing posts by developers and creators. After all, that's what we all are. Right?
> 
> ...


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## Daniel James (Dec 6, 2013)

Giant_Shadow @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> It was ugly for a while, but perhaps there resources are better spent elsewhere than with some of the games that were being played here. I can name one well known reviewer, but won't. If I were him, I would leave as well. But I know his you tube hits and business would be hurt too much. :roll:



Lol I _WONDER_ who you are referring to here LOL. Why do you think that member should leave? 

I also echo what everyone else is saying, I think Spitfire are really well respected here and for every negative comment there are 10 positive ones. It seems strange to me they would leave because of criticism, I wouldn't pin them as _that_ sensitive. I am hope, and am sure, they are just super busy....they have a ton of libs coming soon. Hope they return to the forum soon!

-DJ


----------



## star.keys (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Giant_Shadow @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Confirmed from Christian. I hope they decide to comeback, but for now if you need assistance or have a question you will have to fill out a request through the Spitfire website. Very disappointed.



It's certainly sad news. What a shame, a developer feeling like quitting as a consequence of unhealthy conversations about their products and approach.

There is a thin line between exercising the right to express an opinion and expressing an opinion in a way that spreads negative vibes. People should be mindful of the way they express their views and discuss issues.

I fully support Spitfire team for their decisions. They have earned enough credibility and good will in the market and they have no duty towards addressing such behaviour.

As someone has said earlier, they have been probably the most beloved developer here and the forum will benefit if they master the act of ignoring some conversations. It would be really nice if they come back in the interest of large number of their silent fans and supporters (like me). I very much look forward to Mural and all their future products with their active presence on the forum.


----------



## Daniel James (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



star.keys @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Giant_Shadow @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Confirmed from Christian. I hope they decide to comeback, but for now if you need assistance or have a question you will have to fill out a request through the Spitfire website. Very disappointed.
> ...



Haha again I wonder who you are referring too. I get some people took issue with some of the conversations that happened here. But I stand by everything I have said, and I willingly put my name to it. Like others have said this forum is about being open and honest, its not all positive feedback...that helps no-one except to stroke the ego of the creators, the negative is a necessary evil to keep people on their toes and strive for better things. Its a place to call things how they are, not beat around the bush _insinuating_ things behind an alias.

-DJ


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## benmrx (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Coming from a consumer standpoint, and as someone that has attempted to sell products, I can safely say that I NEVER saw any 'reviewer' say anything disrectful, harmful or anything to suggest anything similar. You're products are going to get reviewed. Reviewed does NOT = praised, it does = 'only show the good things'. If it were, said reviewer would not be much of a 'reviewer', but more of a 'fan-boy'. 

There's NO reason said 'reviewer' should even feel an inkling to leave the forum. If you don't want your products reviewed, then don't make them available to the public. You have every right as a developer to NOT give someone an NFR release, whether you have in the past or not. However, you should know that if someone has a name for themselves as a 'reviewer' for these kinds of libraries, then you should probably know it's going to happen anyways. I just hope (and from what I've seen, seems to hold true) that if that were to happen, said 'reviewer' would still be giving their unbiased opinion on how they might use the libarary in their own work.

This is way more complicated with the super (almost overboard) 'PC' thing here. It would just be easier to say names, as I _think_ we ALL know who the parties are.


----------



## Click Sky Fade (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Well… 

I have known since earlier this week of their decision. There are arguments for and against their leaving. 

This forum connects them with their market audience. To those who Spitfire class as 'early adopters' they get a generous discount as Spitfire have said in the past that helps shape V1.1 of the product. Of course they have social media too but how often have you seen a Spitfire advert in Facebook. How often do you check their Twitter feed or their Facebook page. I never do, I rely on this forum for my information. I appreciate well made sample libraries and if that makes me a Spitfire fanboy then I can live with that because as we all know that they create toys/tools for themselves. If they're good enough for them, they are good enough for me. Of course we all want perfection but we all know that if you want a realistic sounding orchestra then the answer is to use a real one. While sample libraries are getting better (and bigger) it is nigh on impossible to replicate the real thing with these (I know I am stating the obvious).

Now if you imagine there are threads for: Sable 3B (guilty your honour), HZ01, Mural, enigma et al. How many man hours does it take to reply? Plus they have their support ticket system. Plus they have to be productive as that is what puts food on the table.

I don't know if they've withdrawn temporarily or if it's a permanent decision but personally I feel it is not a good decision breaking their connection with us. Maybe the new guy, I think his name is Erik is going to keep us informed. Maybe on a weekly basis, after a lot of progress can be made in a week.

I noted that someone mentioned the download speed and problems with connect of which the guys were quick to respond. I noticed that a certain someone who did a walkthrough video expressed his personal preference about using screen real estate and extra features (and did sing the praises of HZ01). I see nothing wrong in these but i am not the developer. Suppose I was, I would come on here with my 1st 'Signature' library and not everybody but a few are not whooping. I feel that the guys have a lot riding on this and perhaps saw these comments as 'bad publicity' of which it is said there is no such thing but of course there is. Suppose someone who is not a regular viewed the thread and like some of us didn't read all the thread, maybe just picked up on the negativity (I accept there was more positivity) but this is a lost sale.


Anybody querying the Legato patches, I recommend you have a look for the sable video they posted mid week. Very interesting.

My fingers hurt.

Dave


----------



## Daniel James (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



benmrx @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Coming from a consumer standpoint, and as someone that has attempted to sell products, I can safely say that I NEVER saw any 'reviewer' say anything disrectful, harmful or anything to suggest anything similar. You're products are going to get reviewed. Reviewed does NOT = praised, it does = 'only show the good things'. If it were, said reviewer would not be much of a 'reviewer', but more of a 'fan-boy'.
> 
> There's NO reason said 'reviewer' should even feel an inkling to leave the forum. If you don't want your products reviewed, then don't make them available to the public. You have every right as a developer to NOT give someone an NFR release, whether you have in the past or not. However, you should know that if someone has a name for themselves as a 'reviewer' for these kinds of libraries, then you should probably know it's going to happen anyways. I just hope (and from what I've seen, seems to hold true) that if that were to happen, said 'reviewer' would still be giving their unbiased opinion on how they might use the libarary in their own work.
> 
> This is way more complicated with the super (almost overboard) 'PC' thing here. It would just be easier to say names, as we ALL know who the parties are.



Haha we know they are talking about me. And yeah my videos are not about reviewing a product they are just me recording how I work with a library and showing what I like and don't like. I don't give things a score or anything like that, I just show me using it....people are more than entitled to disagree with what I say and I welcome that. Lets not forget to mention by the way I actually like the HZ perc and was very positive on it in places, although people seem to forget those parts and focus on the negative.

But yeah like its been said, you should probably just stop with the beating around the bush thing and call me out by name if you have an issue. I don't hide behind a alias, I speak my mind, I share my opinion and I defend my corner. If you disagree, Thats OK, but don't be passive aggressive about it lol.

-DJ


----------



## hector (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



benmrx @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> If you don't want your products reviewed, then don't make them available to the public.


perhaps they donot appreciate being 'reviewed' by a competitor after all daniel is also a... _developer_ making cinematic libraries and also from youtube videos very involved with another competitor... i am sure absolutely if say a cinesamples developer was to 'review' a 8dio product (even if not the same as theirs) there would not be a good feeling about it.



Daniel James @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> yeah my videos are not about reviewing a product they are just me recording how I work with a library and showing what I like and don't like.


this is a review daniel, however you say the words...

but then perhaps this is all not about that at all, all this thread is speculation of things not really known.


----------



## Click Sky Fade (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



hector @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> but then perhaps this is all not about that at all, all this thread is speculation of things not really known.



“	... there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.	”
—United States Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld


----------



## Arbee (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I'll just put my toe gently in the water and say that I am in some ways relieved. It's almost inevitable that developers will get sucked into the snake pit eventually once the wave of non-critical euphoric adulation passes under the bow (regardless of how good the products and service are). I've been getting less and less from this forum lately as it has, IMHO, become more and more saturated with Spitfire presence (and kudos to them for using this forum so effectively). I'm one of those voices in the apparent wilderness who, while respecting Spitfire immensely, don't consider their products to be the holy grail (for my purposes) nor the only game in town.

If we can now just reduce the number of threads on piracy, reselling and ilok...... :wink: 


.


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## Daniel James (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



hector @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> benmrx @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't want your products reviewed, then don't make them available to the public.
> ...



Its not a review, I am not scoring it, I am just using it and saying how I feel while using it. I can talk about any library I wish, as can they. I never do videos on hybrid scoring library though, as there are people like you who seem to assume I have an ulterior motive or something. I would neither profit or lose anything if someone agreed/disagreed with my opinion on a percussion/string/brass library. My opinion is just that, my opinion, if people don't agree with it and thats fine! they don't have to watch my videos...I just put them up for people who want to see and extended play with libraries.....something I always wanted when I first started.

-DJ


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## TSU (Dec 6, 2013)

It is just incredible how you take all this literally.
Daniel, you have your constant viewers.
And they build they opinions about libraries based on your videos partly or totally.
Each of your videos clearly related to one product.
And you know all that.
You ARE a reviewer.
Of course you can hide behind the words...


----------



## kb123 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Daniel James @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> hector @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > benmrx @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> ...



Daniel, when you become a developer, there is a line that you don't go over with respect to competitor products. In this case, given your frequent visits to Cinesamples HQ, one would consider views expressed are at least coloured by those visits to a competitor which will cause some to question your motives.

Walkthrough videos are incredibly useful, but there are several approaches that can be taken to producing them. Going through features, explaining them etc is one, commenting on them, saying what you think is good or bad, is a review by definition and many will not find that appropriate given particular relationships, unless accompanied by full disclosure.

Just my 2 cents, many like your library reviews, but they should be done with the above in mind.


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## Daniel James (Dec 6, 2013)

TSU @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> It is just incredible how you take all this literally.
> Daniel, you have your constant viewers.
> And they build they opinions about libraries based on your videos partly or totally.
> And you know that.
> ...



Lol, hiding. If there is anything I am doing 'TSU' it's not hiding. People are more than welcome to base there purchasing decisions off of my opinions, as I do off of people who's opinion I value. Doesn't change anything how you call what I do, I just do it and if people find it valuable thats their call. I mean just checking through the majority of people who are digging in at me here's comment history, the majority are about Spitfire and how much they love their libraries so I can understand the animosity towards me here. And I don't get why people act as though everything I said about them was negative, its like the are oblivious to all the things I said I loved...."oh he doesn't like the UI layout! he must be trying to sabotage them!" It's literally cherry picking the negative and forgetting the good.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



kb123 @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Daniel James @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > hector @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> ...



Lol its such a small industry and I have personal relationships with the vast majority of developers here. I got on really well with the Spitfire guys too! again I gushed over parts of their previous libraries...yet again no one remembers this. They just assume anything negative I say has to do with people I know or things I do other than the videos....you know other than the actual thing I am SHOWING on the screen while talking about it. If I say something negative I sure as shit point it out at the same time, I don't edit away, I dont hide things you can see right through the videos. But then again I guess a good conspiracy theory makes for more drama xD

But hey I put myself out there, I say what I think, I stand by my opinions and actions proudly, under my own name. To quote the fast and furious 'The nail that sticks out gets hammered'

-DJ


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## valexnerfarious (Dec 6, 2013)

I believe alot of people nitpick


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## TSU (Dec 6, 2013)

SilentBob, and many others here...

I just can't read this... what's wrong with you people?! Do you forgot how to be a human first of all? Why not to give some respect?! They are musicians as all we here. We all have emotions. And different and unique emotions. And we all have a reasons for our decisions.

They are provide fantastic service, constantly FREE gigantic updates, endless inspiration and ideas... and a really good attitude to everything around them... and this is your gratefulness?

This is really discouraging.

So many great people here! But after some posts I have a less intention to be here...


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## TSU (Dec 6, 2013)

EDITED by moderator

Please regard the forum rules:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3

Especially
7. When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. 
/EDIT


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## aaronnt1 (Dec 6, 2013)

Geez, are people really stooping so low as to say a reviewer should feel guilty for offering this opinions on a product? Anyone on here has a right to review and offer their opinions on a product as they see fit, it's called freedom of speech and no one should be made to feel guilty about doing that. You'd be pretty silly to base your purchasing decision anyway on one review. Besides, Daniel's reviews, from the few I've seen go to great length to actually play the library in individual sections and a wider context so you can hear for yourself what it sounds like. 

Anyone trying to make a reviewer feel guilty for offering his opinions because a developer is offended by those opinions is just trying to cater to the ego of the developer. 

Besides, the Spitfire team seem such great guys that I am sure they are much bigger than that.


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## korgscrew (Dec 6, 2013)

Seems little "Toys out of the pram" to me. 

Sure, some people are not happy with certain parts of a release. There are bits of some spitfire libs that I don't like. There is no perfect library. People will be outgoing with their views. Negative or positive. 

Because....

This is a community. NOT A CULT. 

A big handful of salt needs to be taken with everything in the forum.

I genuinely think that C&P have learnt a lot from this forum. 

They need more demos of their products. My siubdcloud was inundated with the new soundiron VOR. At least 5 demos for a new 8dio library. Good ones at that. People have asked for this and they are slowly starring to create more demos. 

Just announce and update with news plus a few questions. Just like 8dio etc.


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## Arbee (Dec 6, 2013)

TSU @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> I just can't read this... what's wrong with you people?! Do you forgot how to be a human first of all? Why not to give some respect?! They are musicians as all we here. We all have emotions. And different and unique emotions. And we all have a reasons for our decisions.
> 
> They are provide fantastic service, constantly FREE gigantic updates, endless inspiration and ideas... and a really good attitude to everything around them... and this is your gratefulness?
> 
> ...


They are a business trying to make money doing something they love and that will be valued. We are potential customers who they hope to seduce with their products, services and their passion. I come here for independent and objective views from people (like Daniel) to help me make informed decisions and share in a community of diverse skills and opinions. Creating an emotional connection is a treasured marketing strategy, I get my love elsewhere.

.


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## Greg (Dec 6, 2013)

TSU @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> This is really discouraging.



I agree, I have no idea why they left, I'm a bit shocked to be honest. They seemed like complete gentlemen with altruistic motivations. Yet something drove them to peace out and leave their core audience high and dry? Really at a loss here.. 

I hope they don't have any resentment for the community or are discouraged to keep developing libraries. These developers create tools that help us realize our dreams and enhance our life's work. Truly a priceless commodity. 

Without their efforts, many of us would have no chance to create the music we love. 

This should be a lesson to us all to be respectful and objective with our critiques.


----------



## paulmatthew (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Giant_Shadow @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> I don;t start rumors, I just wanted people to know if they need help they have to do it directly now and not on this forum. Maybe they have the right idea though.
> 
> _-)



+ 1 James , I'm with you.

Any time you have an issue you should set up a ticket regardless. It's only fair to the developer to give them a chance to resolve the issue before forum goers get the wrong impression from someone posting their problems here over some little thing that might have been overlooked, or things that may be out of their control , not having to do with the use of the product itself . Most developers will resolve your issue quickly , that's "most" (ahem NI). So far my dealings with Spitfire Audio , Orchestral Tools ,Dream Audio Tools , Fluffy Audio , VSL , Universal Sampling , Soundiron and Cinesamples have been nothing but positive, and all issues have been resolved quickly. I know any of us would want our issue fixed now , but we should give the developer a day or two to respond , it's only fair. 

The reason I bring this up is because Insusurro just released their first library of Pads. Because of the posts on the forum for the release , I haven't picked it up, and I was truly interested . :( All I've read about are the download issues , etc and nothing about the library itself. Users were posting that they weren't getting a full download . Others recently (in another post) were posting that they were having to batch resave because folder locations were not linking on updates . I'm on both sides of the fence with this topic for the following reasons, because it goes both ways:
*
The Customer*
*A) *email the developer about your problem first , don't post it like it's a PM
*B) *If it's a commercial announcement release (which the developer pays to post ) , don't knock them on their own commercial announcement , start your own thread
*C)*A commercial announcement is not the place to get your issues resolved , period.

*The Developer*
*D)* The developer should have checked for these issues before sending out the files
*E)*The developer seems to take care of the issues for their customers 
*F)* The developer should not have to do double time damage control answering your email and responding to your posts in the forum for the same issue ;/c] 
*G)* No developer is going to get it right everytime , especially at first
*H)*As long as they make a quality product , have great support , they will continue to stay in business

I hope some here see the validity in some of these points , but this just one example of the fix my problem now mentality.I am guilty of this too , but I genuinely am getting to the point where I try to think before I post. I want this forum to continue to be a great learning tool because it helps so much to have it here. I am in no way attacking anyone based on these observations , just putting it out there . Don't forget *[email protected]*


----------



## shangsean (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Unbelievable!. I would have thought Spitfire was more praised and perhaps more importantly, more defended than any other developer out there. I'm too scared to post any issues with Spitfire libraries on this forum for fear of getting my face kicked in by my fellow forum members.

And for what it's worth, I bought the Albion libraries because of Daniel James' walkthroughs and the favourable comments on here.

Surely they can't have left because of a couple of negative comments. If they have, well... :roll: I hope that doesn't stop people giving honest opinions on their expensive investments. I and many others rely on it.


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## TSU (Dec 6, 2013)

Arbee, ok, if you want a dry discussion - let it be.
Are you make money using libraries?
Are your income is bigger than you spend on libraries?
It is our instruments to make our music and living.
As I see, we must be thankful to Spitfire (and other great developers) for doing that fantastic work for us that increses quality of our music and as a consequence the quality of our life.

And your statement about emotional connection... yes, it is true. But only because there is no intention to do so from Spitfire guys. Such intention is very notable. So please do not try to do a little girl in the sweet-shop from me. I spend not a little money on different libraries from different developers and I familiar with marketing basics.


----------



## procreative (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Some observations:

Forums and any form of e-mail, twitter etc are inherently difficult forms of communication. 

1. There is no tone of voice or body language to read
2. People say things they would not necessarily have the nerve to say face to face
3. Your ability to express what you mean in written form relies on a firm grasp of grammar and the particular language in this case english

Customers have a right to express their frustrations if they feel a developer is ignoring their issues or state why they feel one library has merits over another. Its possible to do this without being rude and being fair minded.

However sometimes we post things in haste and later wish we had worded it better, although some will take offence at everything and anything.

In my view developers need to have a thick skin and accept some flaws exist. Treat this feedback as free bug testing or product feedback.

However I suspect despite the gripes when the feedback is not always positive most developers realise the power of this place is worth it.

For me its no big deal as I frequently visit developer sites too. And from what I can see Project Sam and Sonokinetic don't participate much beyond product announcements.

Spitfire, please reconsider as I fear others will gain from your absence. At least keep the news flowing here as the competition is intense for our money and Mural is up against a few rivals.

But I will close and say perhaps all developers here should just announce their product news and update it with more information later. Perhaps the solution is to lock out the public from commenting in the announcement posts and save that for "Sample Talk".


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## sin(x) (Dec 6, 2013)

TSU @ 2013-12-07 said:


> As I see, we must be thankful to Spitfire (and other great developers) for doing that fantastic work for us.



I believe putting developers on a pedestal is just as unhealthy as bashing them reflexively. It's a symbiotic relationship.


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## TSU (Dec 6, 2013)

sin(x), you are right and I agree with you. I do it in this thread so activley as an answer for so undeserved attitude from some people here.
I have regret about writing in this thread already and I won't anymore.


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 6, 2013)

Walid F. @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> I thought this forum was for discussing samples, products and overall music talk. Why are people cognizing criticism against products as negative sentiments? If I don't like some aspects of a product, should I be quiet or vocal about it? It appears that in this thread, many people seem to agree that constructive criticism should be kept to oneself, since it will only piss developers off and voila - they leave.
> 
> It's a forum for improvement, for knowledge and for fun. Developers post here and read here to learn what their customers want, what their customers think about their products and what they can do better or what they have done well that they should continue doing. And if giving feedback (read: honest feedback) which attends to perceived subjective flaws of a product is received by negativity and flaming, what happens when we decide not to be vocal of our concerns? I'll tell you: the products get inferior and the customer/developer interaction diminishes.
> 
> ...



+1 - 1000% agree!! I always think of it as if it was my music. If someone had constructive criticism of my music, what I could do better as a composer / producer, I 100% want to hear it! This is how we learn and grow. Of course there will be those who are negative for their own reasons, but they are usually easy to spot and ignore, but to "throw the baby out with the bath water" is ridiculous!


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## Arbee (Dec 6, 2013)

TSU @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> And your statement about emotional connection... yes, it is true. _But only because there is no intention to do so from Spitfire guys._


Fact based on personal knowledge, or opinion?

.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Hi,

Hopefully Spitfire will re-consider their decision to stop engaging directly with customers on this great forum. But... I feel that Spitfire could also have their own company Forum. 

They have quite a bit of products now, and imho. they might be considering doing that. Well... This is pure speculation on my part. I love Spitfire products, and their overall support, and development efforts so far. As long as they keep their communication channels open with their customers, they can't go wrong. 

Having both positive, and negative feedback from customers is a normal thing, so I don't understand why they would close one of their valuable communication channels (this Forum), unless they have other plans in mind. (i.e. have their own Spitfire Forum), which could also mean it will be restricted to registered Spitfire product users. 

Whatever Spitfire does is their business choice, but I feel that keeping a professional communication channel is a key-element for sample developers that want to provide first class products, and keep improving thing, make good decisions, and keep their customers happy, which leads to having a successful business, with a large and loyal customer base. 

Just my 3 cents on this topic. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## SyMTiK (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

While I don't really understand spitfire leaving as they are quite highly respected both here on the forum and elsewhere, i can understand any developers not wanting to be parts of forums. 

just look at some of the ridiculous reviews and complaints people will leave on just about anything on the internet, people will completely bash a company simply because they bought a product and 3 days later there was a sale, or they didnt install it properly but rather than assuming that it was user error, people go ahead and blame it on the product and assume its faulty. If i was a developer, i would just lose it with the stupidity of some people. 

for example, everyone is complaining about Native Instruments going out of stock with the %50 off komplete upgrades and having a 1 to 2 month wait on komplete 9 ultimate upgrades right now, and saying that they will "never buy from them again". I honestly hate that stupid attitude people have, that a company tries so hard to get you the best equipment/software at the best prices possible, and you still complain. im happy that i was even able to place an order and reserve a copy while its on sale. 

I've seen quite a few people bashing certain companies on here (cough east west cough) and i think its just down right rude. imagine being a ceo and having someone walk into your business and tell you that your company is crap and your products are horrible and worthless and that they will never buy from you again. i would be pretty pissed off. now imagine getting that from hundreds of people a day on the internet. that would be very stressful simply because its not constructive criticism to improve the company, its childish insults. not only that, but it can get in the way of your companies work. 

so in a way, i think that it is smart for them to remove themselves from the forum, as forums can be pretty informal and they can just get in the way of work. and if you have a problem with a product, its not that hard to send a formal email telling them what your problem is. however, i dont know why spitfire of all companies would leave because they seem to be one of the more respected companies on here, i dont recall seeing a single insult or criticism towards the company. i for one like them, not just cause there instruments are good but for their educational discounts with commercial use benefits :D


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## tmm (Dec 6, 2013)

@Daniel - I would say ignore anyone who has a problem with you voicing your (quite justified and not a bit offensive) personal opinions on the library. It was perfectly constructive, and I agreed.

@Spitfire - in case you happen by here again, I really hope you're not actually leaving. I depended on your presence here for info on your (amazing, nigh perfect) products.


----------



## dgburns (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Giant_Shadow @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Confirmed from Christian. I hope they decide to comeback, but for now if you need assistance or have a question you will have to fill out a request through the Spitfire website. Very disappointed.



reminds me of my childhood in the backseat of my parents car on long trips going to florida in march.We'd always end up misbehaving out of strict boredom.My dad would always succumb to the famous saying-

"if you kids don't start behavin',we're gonna turn this car around and turn right back home!!"

-er,guess daddy went and turned the car round on us :mrgreen:


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## woodsdenis (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



SyMTiK @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> While I don't really understand spitfire leaving as they are quite highly respected both here on the forum and elsewhere, i can understand any developers not wanting to be parts of forums.



Simple, they want to sell you their product. They promote it here , whip up enthusiasm (HZ Perc), drop hints (Mural anyone) and generally create a buzz for it.

In return they give us an unofficial support for issues, these are the unwritten rules of the game here. Feel free to disagree.

I dont have any problem with that status quo at all. It seems to work well.

Now, and there are a lot of ifs here. If Spitfire have left because of some criticism/discussion it's kind of pathetic. Unless I am missing some kind of threatening or illegal behavior here, there is nothing in any posts I have read that is beyond the usual heated BS that goes on round here.

Also DJ haters, get a grip. He is entitled to an opinion like anyone else, to suggest some kind of conspiracy is absurd ,it comes across as old fashioned jealousy .

Now if the speculation is true, Spitfire guys at least have the decency to be honest and post your reasons for leaving, rather than sulking in the corner. One post and thats it.

I would hope that a library developer of such high standing would at least operate in an honest manner with their customers here.

TBH I would think twice about buying from someone who behaves in such a childish manner.


----------



## SyMTiK (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



woodsdenis @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> SyMTiK @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > While I don't really understand spitfire leaving as they are quite highly respected both here on the forum and elsewhere, i can understand any developers not wanting to be parts of forums.
> ...



yeah i understand that, what i was saying was i dont understand spitfires reasons for leaving (and question it as there hasnt been any real official voice directly from them about it) but i can perfectly understand certain companies not wanting to take part in forums for reasons such as having to deal with all of the people who hate their company face to face constantly. altho, spitfire hasnt been one of them, theyre pretty well respected and theres hardly if ever any harsh criticism towards them. they could just be working on something and this is all temporary, who knows.


----------



## Arbee (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



SilentBob @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> woodsdenis @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > SyMTiK @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> ...


Me too. Their reason however could be as simple as reaching the point where they've done what they came to do here, and now need to focus most of their attention elsewhere. No problem with that either, makes perfect sense. I'm sure their fans will continue to make the Spitfire presence felt here and keep the rest of us up to date.

.


----------



## TehComposerer (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



woodsdenis @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Also DJ haters, get a grip. He is entitled to an opinion like anyone else, to suggest some kind of conspiracy is absurd.



This.


----------



## ETMuz (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I do think certain things could have been expressed a little differently by forum members(Perc/Mural thread). I just wish people would just spend a little bit more time on how they say things. I think they did an outstanding job promoting and delivering the product. I personally really appreciated how apart of this forum they were and thats why I purchased 5 libraries from them in 1 month! I do sorda of feel a loss right now :(


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## wanmingyan (Dec 6, 2013)

korgscrew @ December 7th 2013 said:


> Because....
> 
> This is a community. NOT A CULT.
> 
> A big handful of salt needs to be taken with everything in the forum.



+1


----------



## synergy543 (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

The Brits didn't give up in WWII and they surely shouldn't give up now. Even if these blokes are happily sipping Piña Coladas off the coast of Maui with Hans, its still not time to retreat. 
With a namesake like "Spitfire" they need to muster up the courage to recall these famous quote by Winston Churchill and jump back into the game!

"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."

"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly."

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."

"If you are going to go through hell, keep going."

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else."

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

"Everyone has his day and some days last longer than others."

"Never give up, never surrender.....Oh wait,... that's not Churchill, but he did say something close like "Never, never, never give up."


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Flouncing off without explanation is childish behavior. I had expected more from the Spitfire folk, who have seemed like talented hardworking, balanced gentlemen to me. This is not the first time I've seen this behavior from a developer in this forum. Blaming the forum is ridiculous. Whatever they spent in advertising dollars here, they got back ten times in great word of mouth advertising. Spitfire has been treated as gently as any developer I have EVER seen here, and praised to the skies. I am perfectly willing to believe they have deserved every word of that praise, yet this sort of thing belies it all. 

I mean, REALLY? What was it that prompted this diva-like behavior, anyway? A mediocre review of a product? A _slightly_ grumbly request for a product improvement, and poof...gone with the wind?? At the least, a company representative should explain and offer an explanation or a mission statement...or are they that willing to blow off this forum? Respect works both ways.


----------



## Sid Francis (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I read the "nasty" posts in the Mural thread and did find them totally polite and well said. What was not so polite were the reactions of the members which for me started the flame war. The original critics were perhaps not justified but that is not the question. They reflected the way of working and the resulting problems of some users and that is totally legit to mention it here. This forum is called "Sample talk", not "developers high mass"
I like Paul and Christian a lot but if they cannot bear to read, that Sable might be better and that someone is not satisfied with the legatos (I find them totally okay but got a lot of other problems with that library, yes a lot...) they are very sensitive indeed about critisism. They are the most adored bunch of devs here on V.I and the threads and postings in praise of Spitfire outnumber the critical mentionings by a hundred.


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## KingIdiot (Dec 6, 2013)

jeez folk, they don't owe anyone here anything. Not on this website at least. Forums are a tough nugget, people leave sometimes, they're people. They pay for advertising space, they don't have to do much more. 

This feels like a bunch of 8yr olds drunk on glue calling some crying kid a pussy at recess.


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## peksi (Dec 6, 2013)

maybe they just did their math and decided that time spent on forum discussion is just not worth it. majority of customers do come outside this forum and i suppose they've grown quite a bit.

if it we're worth the time they'd hire some saleman to do the marketing and take the bullets.

just my reasoning. hate to see them leave.


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## Letis (Dec 6, 2013)

For me as an almost "read only" member this forum (my english is too bad for writing much) is an important source of information and experiences from developers and users. 

i don´t know the real reasons of spitfire to leave and i read a lot of speculations here but i personally cannot believe that it is just because of some critics. 

for me its great to read or watch an independent reviewer who tells me the pros and cons of a lib. developers walkthroughs are very good to see where the strengths of a lib are, the weaker points (which also every lib has) you won´t see here. thats okay - audi also won´t tell me that bmw is a great car and in some points even better.

for example, daniel´s review of HZ01 finally made me buy it. 

i really hope the spitfire guys come back because they are, for me, a part of this forum and i love their philosophy and products.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> jeez folk, they don't owe anyone here anything. Not on this website at least. Forums are a tough nugget, people leave sometimes, they're people. They pay for advertising space, they don't have to do much more.
> 
> This feels like a bunch of 8yr olds drunk on glue calling some crying kid a pussy at recess.



And you are? Oh wait-you're the kid who throws himself into the pile and beats up the bullies...riiiight. 

Jeez, really-"crying kid"? Gosh. Now I feel bad. Ummm.

You're right, they don't have to be here, they don't owe anybody anything. They don't have to be in business. They don't have to do anything....but they did do something pretty damn respectable-they did go into business in a major way, they did promote it here, they did get all sorts of pats and snuggles, and apparently they just flounced. Life goes on. Mind if I comment on the train as it passes by? No? Thanks ever so.


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## KingIdiot (Dec 6, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> KingIdiot @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > jeez folk, they don't owe anyone here anything. Not on this website at least. Forums are a tough nugget, people leave sometimes, they're people. They pay for advertising space, they don't have to do much more.
> ...



nah I just eat popcorn and laugh, but like any movie buff I like to critique from my couch.


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Everybody,

we are getting a number of reports about this thread and need to ask everbody to go through own posts and check whether it is still according to forum rules. Please if appropriate edit your posts yourself before we must do. Thanks.

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3

Especially
7. When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum.

Note in order to avoid misunderstandings: This is not targeted to the post or posts before this but to all the thread.


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2013)

KingIdiot @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > KingIdiot @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> ...



As do we all-but tomato or tomahto, a thing is what it is. It ain't a rutabaga. Flouncing's a little childish. Human, sure-but not best in show.


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Everybody,
> 
> we are getting a number of reports about this thread and need to ask everbody to go through own posts and check whether it is still according to forum rules. Please self-moderate before we must do. Thanks.
> 
> ...



If it's any of mine, Hannes, please remove if you feel it's necessary. No worries.


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## KingIdiot (Dec 7, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> As do we all-but tomato or tomahto, a thing is what it is. It ain't a rutabaga. Flouncing's a little childish. Human, sure-but not best in show.



sure it isn't, but it's happened before. Nick, Troels, hell back to Donnie and the developer I'm not allowed to name without threats of being sued. This isn't developer central, we like to make it out to be, but really it's still just a community. People are allowed to leave whenever they want for whatever reason they want. I know you're not arguing against that, but mostly what I'm feeling is a sense of entitlement that they stay.

Sure everyone can all the leaving whatever they want, but it's in the lines between all that of the need that they stay, that's mostly disconcerting. There are more users than developers. We should take it as a call to arms to learn to help ourselves instead of relying on them to hold our hands at the community park.


----------



## Synesthesia (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Hi all,

We decided to take a week off from VI control last week to concentrate on production and customer support. While VIC can be a great support and a source of some good ideas (like our customer support desk) and while we are perfectly ok with criticism and suggestions -- regularly enjoy discussing possible ideas with our customers *via our support* - recently there have been situations where two things happen: 

firstly one person states something negative and demands some kind of urgent update is needed, and if we don't respond immediately it continues to grow and grow from a non issue into something that we feel compelled to keep jumping in and correct or defend. 

The other thing was aptly described by Christian to me last week: he used to work in sock shop, and our recent experience of VIC would be like working there, same happy customers week in week out, but for some reason every tenth person who walks past your shop leans in through the door and shouts "your socks are shit" whether they have bought from there or not.

Eventually this grinds you down, demoralises and has the effect of changing priorities in an unhelpful way: Its very hard to continually ignore those voices even when the majority are positive. Especially when those voices require attention or they continue to suggest your lack of response is in some way a tacit admission that indeed, your socks *are* shit.

:mrgreen:


----------



## Hannes_F (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Hannes_F @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > we are getting a number of reports about this thread and need to ask everbody to go through own posts and check whether it is still according to forum rules.
> ...



Larry, this was definetely not at you specifically, and we would very much prefer if all users in this thread would check and edit their own posts. No need for exaggerating, just taking out the bits that can be regarded as personal insult or disrespectful. Goes to all directions. Thanks.


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Personally, I feel no such entitlement. It's cool if they're here, it's cool if they're not. 

You're right that it's happened before. It's not the leaving I object to. It's the OTHER sense of entitlement- you know, the one where the developer has a boo hoo moment, expresses the deep unfairness of it all, and huffs off. Why should a developer expect full time kid glove treatment? It's simply not a reasonable expectation. These products are NOT being given away. Maybe I'm just tough because of years writing for advertising where the rudeness is astounding, but man. Comparatively, this is kid stuff.


----------



## Ozymandias (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Three pages of hand-wringing and it turns out they took a week off.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Dec 7, 2013)

...and they're back 

Possibly in modified form of course. Glad to see they'll still announce here at least - I think reduced-footprint developer postings is a pretty good model that works for many devs here.


----------



## KingIdiot (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Personally, I feel no such entitlement. It's cool if they're here, it's cool if they're not.
> 
> You're right that it's happened before. It's not the leaving I object to. It's the OTHER sense of entitlement- you know, the one where the developer has a boo hoo moment, expresses the deep unfairness of it all, and huffs off. Why should a developer expect full time kid glove treatment? It's simply not a reasonable expectation. These products are NOT being given away. Maybe I'm just tough because of years writing for advertising where the rudeness is astounding, but man. Comparatively, this is kid stuff.



I'm with you I think there's a bit of soem easy bruising sometimes. I remember talking some people off the edge of the jumping ship before. Many people have it, I've had it myself. It's part of life, more than a forum I'm guessing. Plus come on, it's a forum full of artists. touchy feely sensitive types. Bunch of wussies.


----------



## EwigWanderer (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Great to see Synesthesia here and I hope we will see you here more.

I've been a salesman over 12 years now. I used to work in music shop selling instruments and studio gear. Then I was at a local HiFi-shop selling high quality audio:

Customers were professionals! When they had an issue, they came and presented their issue considerately without being a jackass. They got things sorted and everybody was fine.

When I worked in a phone operator shop (few years) and consumer electronics (over a year) 85% of the customers were jackasses! Only time when customers were polite was when trying to get the price down. When they had issues they were glowing red and yelling to salesmen. Majority of the issues would have solved by reading the manual.

When I came to this forum some years ago I felt that this forum is full with professionals. Now there are too much whiners and even bullying among us. Why is it so?

Jackass! (Ben Matlock)


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## korgscrew (Dec 7, 2013)

Sock shop? Jesus! Do they exist?!? Haha


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Synesthesia @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> ... he used to work in sock shop...



Hi Paul,
Hi Christian,

On one particular Monday, my Mom told me to put on a clean pair of socks every day. 

...by Friday I could not get my boots on anymore.

:wink:


----------



## Stein Thor (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Sockfire /\~O


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Synesthesia @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> We decided to take a week off from VI control last week to concentrate on production and customer support. While VIC can be a great support and a source of some good ideas (like our customer support desk) and while we are perfectly ok with criticism and suggestions -- regularly enjoy discussing possible ideas with our customers *via our support* - recently there have been situations where two things happen:
> 
> ...



I think it's the last part that is the key, although I think you know your socks are quite clean and attractive  

I also think it's noble but nuts to try and deal with customer issues or concerns in forum threads. It's like being a doctor who is always on call. That's why you set up your support in the first place, right? Just express sorrow that they have issues and have 'em send a ticket.

Also, there is no way in heck that you can please all the people all the time. Different people have different ways of working, some are curmudgeons who can never be pleased, some are just plain cuckoo. Some perfectly reasonable people will not like your products simply because thy can't write as well as Andy B  You can't get into the habit of taking it personally 'cause you'll end up in the asylum while the crazy customers roam freely.

I am very much on the side of developers- right up to the aggrieved diva moment. That's where ya lose me.

Now I'm done with my cuckoo curmudgeonly ranting, and I honestly wish you well.


----------



## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

Spitfire,

Your doing everything right...more than right. You are creating something magical, unique and powerful...and bored haters are always gonna hate. I read SO many posts from "regulars" on this forum and these posts are absolute BS. I love this forum but some members just think its an excuse to talk when there is NOTHING to be said. They long for friction because they have nothing else to talk about. I sure hope this forum doesn't eventually turn into Gearslutz.

Now watch... the guys who attack me for writing this post, are EXACTLY the guys I'm talking about.


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## Vlzmusic (Dec 7, 2013)

I am sure majority of this forum are grown up and quite experienced folks - so once A is gets ranted about and bashed, there is always an option to present explanations, examples, demos, whatever to make the majority say its mind.

In my honest opinion, if majority of users say A is cool - then case is closed, and there are refunds for the "wacko costumer" (they always exist, in every business on earth.)

Presenting this normal business situation as forum`s negative side - quite strange, specially in view of long lasting developers who have their share of good and bad for years, but manage it somehow.


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Stein Thor @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Sockfire /\~O


----------



## TSU (Dec 7, 2013)

Hi guys,

I want to say that my harshness was not neceserry and I regret about this. I must to keep my emotions in a respectful form. I want to publicly apologize about that. Especially to Daniel James. You are not deserved such reaction from me. I just was pissed off by the things happening here recently. Sorry about my negativity.


----------



## star.keys (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Daniel James @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Its a place to call things how they are, not beat around the bush _insinuating_ things behind an alias.
> 
> -DJ



Edited one of the posts that seems to have bring out some emotion.

Daniel, two things:

1. If people believe they are experienced enough to do well-balanced walkthroughs, and not exhibiting such transparency and approach in their walkthrough of competitor products, despite of self being a developer and a competitor, it doesn't sound quite right.

2. It was inappropriate to tag Spitfire's approach to leave as an attempt of "emotional blackmail" in a public forum.

I can clearly see what's going on here.

Last but not the least, people making authoritative statements with their exposed identity does not necessarily add to the credibility and authenticity of their views. Similarly, people using alias does not negate the value of their views. There are many here who know who I am.

Happy music making, for a game that we all can win...


----------



## Simon Ravn (Dec 7, 2013)

Someone mentioned that the developers themself shouldn't handle support issues here on this forum. I agree with that actually. But I don't know if SF are big enough to be able to pay someone handling custom relations and support. So that might isn't gonna happen. 

I think generally VSL (which I realize is a much bigger company) don't have their developers handling their forums. I know Dietz and Karel are there though, and as far as I know Dietz is very deep into software development and he is handling it quite professionally. It depends on who you are, I guess, how much you take these criticisms to heart. Obviously Paul and co. DO take these things personally, which is not ideal... 

So if they have someone cold blooded enough in their loop who knows enough about their products, I would suggest they place him or her as front person for managing customer service. That way they can focus 100% on developing and updating products, and get filtered feedback from this person who can filter out the worst nonsense (I heard they get some really tough emails - I don't feel the tone here on VI is at that level). Of course it might not be a feasable solution but it would make sense


----------



## dedersen (Dec 7, 2013)

We are in a pretty unique situation in this little community, in that we are offered the opportunity to interact very directly with the people who shape the tools that we use. I like to think that this is mutually beneficial, and I for one would be very sad to see that interaction go away, or be watered down.


----------



## Daniel James (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



star.keys @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Daniel James @ Fri Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Its a place to call things how they are, not beat around the bush _insinuating_ things behind an alias.
> ...



To the first: I don't ever claim to be experienced enough to do anything, i do things and let people judge for themselves. My videos have got nothing to do with me being a developer, i did videos for a long time before i became one, my videos havmt changed so please stop trying to ride the conspiracy train and insinuate that I have an agenda with my videos when all I do is share my opinion on things. People can choose to listen or not, they know who I am, they know what I do... If they think my opinion is scewed they dont have to listen, they can ignore what I say and just listen to the sounds of the library I show for extended periods...or even not watch at all. The majority of people here are smart enough to make up their own minds about products.

To the second: i never said that here, you may want to double check, if you look I was actually saying they should stay, which thankfully it appears they may. I mentioned itin another thread where it was relevant and I justified my position various times. If you read the thread with the context I think my point was justified....to bring it up here is only serving as an attempt to villify me ina thread of Spitfire supporters (of which I am but people seem to ignore)

To the third: posting under you own name absolutly gives you more credibility. People know who you are, what you do. They can cheack out what you stand for and decide if your opinion matters to them. Even if it doesnt they can still respect on a certain level where your views are based and how invested in a community they are. When you are behind an alais all that is hidden and closely guarded, where you only let people know the bits about you that serve your own positions. People tend to be a bit more honest when there name is on the line.

@TSU: no worries mate 

-DJ

Ps typed on iphone


----------



## sin(x) (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I gotta be honest… I don't get the debate. Like, at all. I've skimmed the threads that supposedly lead to Spitfire's departure, and to me they seem to consist of 95% raving enthusiasm, 4.5% not-overly-harsh criticism, and the occasional troll that everyone makes fun of. I honestly don't get how this wouldn't be a developer's home match.

I don't know. I've been frequenting forums and chats since BBS times and I've always found that the most useful ones are those frequented by grown-ups with a healthy amount of experience and passion. That implies a modicum of civility, but certainly not an imperative to sugar-coat things. Invariably, the least useful (and most depressing) places are those where any poster calling what he perceives to be a turd a turd will be first burned at the stake by self-proclaimed peacekeepers, then censored or banned by a mod. I'd be far more concerned if vi-control moved in that direction.

I'm not happy at all about Spitfire's decision, as having devs around can be a tremendous asset for a software-centric forum (and also, I like the guys), but unless there was some all-out flamewar that I've missed or that got deleted, I can't quite follow their reasoning.


----------



## Bunford (Dec 7, 2013)

I think I've totally missed something. What happened and why have they disappeared?


----------



## mark812 (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



sin(x) @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> I gotta be honest… I don't get the debate. Like, at all. I've skimmed the threads that supposedly lead to Spitfire's departure, and to me they seem to consist of 95% raving enthusiasm, 4.5% not-overly-harsh criticism, and the occasional troll that everyone makes fun of. I honestly don't get how this wouldn't be a developer's home match.
> 
> I don't know. I've been frequenting forums and chats since BBS times and I've always found that the most useful ones are those frequented by grown-ups with a healthy amount of experience and passion. That implies a modicum of civility, but certainly not an imperative to sugar-coat things. Invariably, the least useful (and most depressing) places are those where any poster calling what he perceives to be a turd a turd will be first burned at the stake by self-proclaimed peacekeepers, then censored or banned by a mod. I'd be far more concerned if vi-control moved in that direction.
> 
> I'm not happy at all about Spitfire's decision, as having devs around can be a tremendous asset for a software-centric forum (and also, I like the guys), but unless there was some all-out flamewar that I've missed or that got deleted, I can't quite follow their reasoning.



Big +1.

If VI-control starts looking similar to Soundsonline forum, then it will be a problem.


----------



## williemyers (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

here's a really crazy idea that 90% of you will hate and dismiss and the remaining 10% of us will find worth consideration.

let's say that VI-C created a new "Pro" forum. contributors would be developers & users who have actually *purchased* the developers' products. when a user purchased a new library, the developer would include a number of VI-C Pro points. and it would require a certain total level of points to be a member of the Pro forum. *Everyone* could *read *the comments in that forum, but only members of the forum could post.
the reason for such an idea is that it's just too obvious that many of the most critical folks here do not even own the products they're criticizing. "I can't believe that XXX doesn't include YYY legato or ZZZ articulation! What were they thinking, releasing such a piece of crap!?!" 

I, for one, have been highly critical on occasion of both LASS and Sibelius, but I've found it very helpful that the folks who contribute to their forums, are (like myself) actual owners/users. Comments (and commentors) that are just crabbing are quickly tossed by the users. 

So yeah, it's a crazy idea...a bad idea... and it's not gonna happen. 
but the thing is, if this forum gets too bogged down with unqualified whiners, the real "pros" - who actually have something of value to share - will start to drift away. 

And that will be a loss for all of us....


----------



## handz (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building for a week*

First, I must say, It makes me bit sad that lately I see more of this silly threads and commercial announcements on the VI than members compositions, tips &tricks, general talk about composing and sample mock ups etc. 

It was not like that before, maybe everybody grown up to such level he dont need to do this but honestly I doubt that everybody did as there is always so much new to learn.

I also noticed huge grow of new members here. Im here since beginning and I know most of the people in every thread, being "old farts" of the forums as well, but with such huge grow of the new members - this forum becomming more of a "standardl open" forums and not "semi closed - special" forum it was. And with that the risc of the new trolls and angry criticizers of everything always rises.

As for the Spitfire

any developer should NOT do customer support throught VICol but the promotion and personal connection with their customer base here as well as listening to advices and compaintsis essential in this still I would say a bit niche market. 

I have my reservations in the past agains Spitfire for duing elite libs non available to all, it was in some old thread and I was not alone, but that is old story.

lately EVERY their product being extremely well received here by most people and quite overhyped from my point of view. They do great stuff but I would not say it always is worth of that "best guys in the market" market. 

I remember when Cinesamples released Cinewinds, there was a HUGE criticizm here, from many people. And they not do such huge promoting here or have a reputation of Gods almost. They not get scared and still are there, listening to their potential customers and proffesionals in their work what could they improve maybe etc - this is crucial. On this forums there are some of the best peole in the business (or at least very good ones) and their ideas of what library should do or pointing on problems of existing release is very important and every developer should take them in mind. 

running away like a little frat who was not praised for everything he dod seems really unmature to me. Criticizm is always there but sorry, there NEVER be any extreme criticizm for them or any other dev so he needed to run away like that. You can clearly see some people with 20-100 posts being angry etc - those are these new members with no history here, usualyl they soon dissapear. But it is easy to notice who is who there after while.

As for opening their own forums - sorry this is worst idea usually, I really dont like to look on forums of EVERY developer I have libs from and I doubt the people from here have too. These small developers are not Soundsonline selling thousands of libs. 

I hope this will get solved somehow. As this is really not a good thing, connection with developers is one of the best things this forum have.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 7, 2013)

I can't imagine anyone will actually read this, it's posted so far down this huge diatribe but

This isn't exactly a public forum, it about a niche nice business, creating VI's for composers. 

It would be helpful for all of us to support our developers in tone, constructive criticism, rather than blanket negative statements. 

I believe that Spitfire cinesamples 8do etc. are all in business for the love of it, of course they need to make money, but there are better ways to do that than develop VI's.

Not all the VIs I purchased behave or sound exactly the way that I want them to, but I'm pretty sure the developers I purchase from are doing their very best to make these instruments as amazing as possible, and probably sound and behave 99% of the way that they want them to. 

So cut 'em some slack will ya? Encourage rather than discourage please ,I need these tools to make a living.


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## Click Sky Fade (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building for a week*

Well I'm glad that they have decided to come back and like someone else has said it may be an idea to for them to have reduced time on here. I also think that if someone has an issue in regard to the functionality of any software then the company should be the first point of contact. This said, I think maybe Paul and Christian should come up with some stock answers to such comments along the line of RTFM.

On the subject of Daniel James, I was very grateful for his video post as my download took forever and a day. This was not a Connect problem or the Amazon servers but it's down to the fact that they have only just brought us that there electrickery to this backwater town (I'm exaggerating slightly). As a user of this software I am always interested to see how other people utilise it. Daniels walkthrough was mostly in praise however maybe the main release thread was not the place for it, maybe in the sample talk thread? I believe Daniel posted it for us to preview.

Anyway, as has already been said, there were more complimentary comments and Daniel did post a very complimentary comment of the HZ01 software prior to everything going askew.

Dave


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## doctornine (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Daniel James @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> To the first: I don't ever claim to be experienced enough to do anything, i do things and let people judge for themselves. My videos have got nothing to do with me being a developer, i did videos for a long time before i became one, my videos havmt changed so please stop trying to ride the conspiracy train and insinuate that I have an agenda with my videos when all I do is share my opinion on things. People can choose to listen or not, they know who I am, they know what I do... If they think my opinion is scewed they dont have to listen, they can ignore what I say and just listen to the sounds of the library I show for extended periods...or even not watch at all. The majority of people here are smart enough to make up their own minds about products.



Well I'll happily give DJ a +1 on this.

I find the lengthy walkthru's very useful - they have on several occasions swayed me one way or the other on buying a specific product.
Am I bothered there down by someone who is a "developer" themselves ?

No. Because I'd like to think I'm a reasonably smart enough to make up my own mind.


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## dgburns (Dec 7, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> I can't imagine anyone will actually read this, it's posted so far down this huge diatribe but
> 
> This isn't exactly a public forum, it about a niche nice business, creating VI's for composers.
> 
> ...



Hey Stuart,I read the post!

big plus one.

On a serious note,and to follow in your feet,as it were,I find I tend to buy libs I THINK will do a job that stuff I have already won't do.Sometimes that means it takes TIME to learn the new layout and how it will work in the context of how I work.Sometime purchases just sit there collecting dust for some reason or another.I have bought so much stuff that in hind sight seemed like a bad purchase,for one reason or another.
Some stuff I buy and in the first few minutes realize that I was missing out on something I should've had for a long time,and it totally changes the way I setup my stuff.Sometimes you just don't know until you buy the stuff and put it through it's paces.

If,the occasion occurs that something was bought,but just is not being used,I chalk it up to experience,and move on.In the end,I still get to depreciate the expenses from the day to day accounting,so I get to see "something" for the effort and expense of a purchase that maybe didn't quite work out as I thought.

I just don't understand the negative comments ,however useful they may be in determining the value others place on sample libs that are out there.Many of the things I bought were from comments people said in this forum and others,as well as demos of the stuff.whitout wanting to sound trite,but I place a high value on the comments made by people who are either very talented,or are using the stuff to make some kind of living.Either will do,neither is mutually excusive.There are many folks not fortunate to make a living using these tools,but if there is talent in their writing,or a strong knowledge of the tools and tech,I will listen.

I think many feel the same way.

sockfire(i like that) =o


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## tack (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Daniel James @ Fri Dec 06 said:


> Lol its such a small industry and I have personal relationships with the vast majority of developers here. I got on really well with the Spitfire guys too! again I gushed over parts of their previous libraries...yet again no one remembers this.


FWIW as a newb, I bought two Spitfire products based on your videos, Daniel. I also watched your HZ walkthrough with great interest and didn't find it disparaging. Critical in some parts, sure, as your videos usually are (and should be, IMO, for them to be useful).

All I can say is that after the HZ video was over, I was lefting wanting to buy it. It's just an awkward time of year to be spending money on personal hobbies.  At the end of the day, the thing that kept me from pulling the trigger straightaway wasn't your video, but the price tag.


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## Riffs (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building for a week*

FWIW I stopped using Spitfire some time ago. I sent an email to their support last year and it took almost 2 hours to get a reply. OK, it was a Sunday but even so, no apology or anything. Quite frankly I don't think this is good enough.

Also, the legato on the Sackbutt could be alot better in Albion 2. Speaking of which, I notice they have a Sackbut 'Hi' and 'Lo'. But no middle? WTF? The very essence of the Sackbutt lies in that golden, middle sweet-spot. This would be very useful yet, despite my emails suggesting this I have yet to see it in an update.

Which brings me onto my final point. Download speeds. It took me 24 days to download Sable. In this part of the Orkneys I have one of the fastest dial-up speeds in the village, so it was surprising that such times were encountered. If this is Spitfire's idea of being in the '21st Century' then frankly I will give my cash to developers who show a little more interest in customer satisfaction.


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## sin(x) (Dec 7, 2013)

You're gonna want to wait a few months, man. 2014 is going to be the year of the sackbutt libraries.


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*

I just wanted to re-quote the official word in this thread, since a couple of the responses today did not sound as though they had read it. 



Synesthesia @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> We decided to take a week off from VI control last week to concentrate on production and customer support. While VIC can be a great support and a source of some good ideas (like our customer support desk) and while we are perfectly ok with criticism and suggestions -- regularly enjoy discussing possible ideas with our customers *via our support* - recently there have been situations where two things happen:
> 
> ...


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## toomanynotes (Dec 7, 2013)

Can someone tell me which library has spitfire contributed to the winter fund raiser this year? I might take the plunge as i've yet to discover their sounds.


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## valexnerfarious (Dec 7, 2013)

how about this...its said,done and over with...why not delete this entire thread and get back awaiting for new products and also to get to writing music which is what we all love to do...lol


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## dgburns (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building for a week*



Riffs @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> FWIW I stopped using Spitfire some time ago. I sent an email to their support last year and it took almost 2 hours to get a reply. OK, it was a Sunday but even so, no apology or anything. Quite frankly I don't think this is good enough.



@Per,yes I read the spitfire post,in case anyone is pointing fingers.

@riffs,I had to re-read this line three times just to make sure I read it right.

I simply don't have the vocabulary to express my disbelief in your expectations regarding customer service.I am ecstatic if I get ANY reply from ANY dev that I post a question to ,using the proper and correct channels to do so.
I am not a celeb,but I do try to remember that I am trying to run a business,and I try as best as I can,when wearing those shoes,to be as PRO as I can possibly be when corresponding with anyone in such a manner.This affects MY reputation and wellbeing,and funny enough,I seem to get people to bend over backwards for me somehow.I always express my appreciation for any help given,and have been happy to receive exceptional service from many devs here,even private beta copies of plugs etc,when we discover that an issue arises.I won't name any names,but there it is.

to be upset at the 2 hrs wait,on a sunday no less,is simply asking more than is reasonable.I hope you can see that.Frankly I'm not sure why I am bothering to respond,but I feel that expectations need to come down to earth here a little.
Now,if you are two hours away from needing to deliver a score to the mix stage in LA,and are dead in the water,things might be a little different.Yes,I've been there,and no,You don't get anywhere by blaming others for your failures.
I too am seriously thinking of just lurking from now on.Maybe the rest o you will be happy to be rid of me and my stupid sense of humour.
anyway,life and duty calls,later boys and girls.


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## AC986 (Dec 7, 2013)

I think he was joking. Irony and all of that?


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## aaronnt1 (Dec 7, 2013)

Riffs post was obviously satirical (at least I hope so!)


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 7, 2013)

@dgburns It seemed like @Riffs was just making fun of how unreasonable our expectations can be. I say that based on the combination of their previous genuinely positive Albion posts in the past, and also based on the sense of humor demonstrated in posts like this one.

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 99#3672199


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## Eric (Dec 7, 2013)

I am not a longtime member here. Unfortunately, there is no forum in existence composed of my peers, in my segment of the music industry, at least none which I'm aware. I hope that my presence here adds diversity, and I try to post in order to give back to the incredible resource that is vi-control. I wouldn't presume to tell others in this community how they should or shouldn't post, but I will share my perspective, for whatever that might be worth.

I hope no one here takes for granted that you actually have a community on the net. Not everyone is so fortunate.

The primary thought I have is that the developers are composers. This is their community too. Is there an invisible line that one must cross, when you're no longer allowed to be a part of this community? Because when the consensus of posts indicate that developers shouldn't be as active, to me it seems you want to take away that sense of community from the developer, to isolate them. That's a loss to the developer and the community, and doesn't seem altogether fair to me.

As for the inevitable drama and unnecessary negativity... If I'm treated in a disrespectful manner in my work, and I proceed to come home and treat my family with disrespect, as a way of processing my negative emotions, then all I'm doing is adding misery to my home life. The same is true in this community. I don't expect that every poster will suddenly be respectful with every post, no matter what the forum rules say. But, for whomever here can diffuse flames rather than feeding them with negative emotion, these people will be the ones keeping this a better place.

I'm not suggesting censorship. In the buyer-beware business of purchasing libraries, I absolutely rely on truthful information from end users. I'd just urge people here to remember that we're all musicians. No one got into this because it was a smart way to earn a living. Yes, it's not all about creativity in any of our professions, but at least creativity and artistry plays a part in it. Your developers are you peers, and in a way they are your family. Do you want to use your family to vent your frustrations, or do you want to learn and grow with them? It's the holidays - maybe developers want to spend time with their wives and kids too.

I get that different products have their strengths and weaknesses, and different libraries do different cool things. Being great doesn't always mean being the best at everything. Michael Jordan is arguably the greatest player in the history of basketball, but he never led his team in blocked shots.

I respect every individual and every company's choice of how they'd like to represent themselves publicly. We're fortunate to have seen the birth of the internet, what an amazing revolution to live through. This is all still a grand experiment, the idea of internet forums.


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 7, 2013)

@Eric That struck a chord. I posted an excerpt from it and linked to your original post on my Facebook.


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## Martin K (Dec 7, 2013)

Eric @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> I am not a longtime member here. Unfortunately, there is no forum in existence composed of my peers, in my segment of the music industry, at least none which I'm aware. I hope that my presence here adds diversity, and I try to post in order to give back to the incredible resource that is vi-control. I wouldn't presume to tell others in this community how they should or shouldn't post, but I will share my perspective, for whatever that might be worth.
> 
> I hope no one here takes for granted that you actually have a community on the net. Not everyone is so fortunate.
> 
> ...



+1

Very well said


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## playz123 (Dec 7, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building*



Ozymandias @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> Three pages of hand-wringing and it turns out they took a week off.



Exactly why I wrote, back on page one, "Before I can comment, I'd really like to know what they actually said and the extent of their decision."

Pages of comments based on incomplete information. At least Paul and Christian now know how much they are appreciated on this forum, and how well respected they are, so regardless something good has resulted.  And there are MANY excellent comments in this thread that are worth noting and taking to heart as well. So perhaps it still was a useful exercise.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 7, 2013)

adriancook @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> I think he was joking. Irony and all of that?



Humor doesn't always translate so well. Maybe better to leave it out, or use italics, or emoticons, etc., to communicate intents. I only know Riff, and most others here, by your comments, not individuals.


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## dhlkid (Dec 8, 2013)

We are free to speak, but better not cross the line.

Quote from a big name composer that we all know from his interview, .....Without saying anything bad about anything....!


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## Cruciform (Dec 8, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building for a week*



Riffs @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> FWIW I stopped using Spitfire some time ago. I sent an email to their support last year and it took almost 2 hours to get a reply. OK, it was a Sunday but even so, no apology or anything. Quite frankly I don't think this is good enough.
> 
> Also, the legato on the Sackbutt could be alot better in Albion 2. Speaking of which, I notice they have a Sackbut 'Hi' and 'Lo'. But no middle? WTF? The very essence of the Sackbutt lies in that golden, middle sweet-spot. This would be very useful yet, despite my emails suggesting this I have yet to see it in an update.
> 
> Which brings me onto my final point. Download speeds. It took me 24 days to download Sable. In this part of the Orkneys I have one of the fastest dial-up speeds in the village, so it was surprising that such times were encountered. If this is Spitfire's idea of being in the '21st Century' then frankly I will give my cash to developers who show a little more interest in customer satisfaction.



Bwahahahahhaha!!!! :lol: 

Funniest post all year. Nevermind the humour impaired. o-[][]-o


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## korgscrew (Dec 8, 2013)

*Re: Spitfire Audio have left the building for a week*



Cruciform @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> Riffs @ Sun Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW I stopped using Spitfire some time ago. I sent an email to their support last year and it took almost 2 hours to get a reply. OK, it was a Sunday but even so, no apology or anything. Quite frankly I don't think this is good enough.
> ...



My middle name is sarcasm. I spotted this before I even READ the post :mrgreen:


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## gpax (Dec 8, 2013)

dhlkid @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> We are free to speak, but better not cross the line.



Understanding that as a quote, you nevertheless reminded me of how that line gets drawn here. It seems to me that one inherent aspect of this forum - encouraging members to speak honestly, and often to the benefit of the developer - can easily be abused as well. And it’s usually not with ill-intent, either. 

The fact that anyone, at any time, can insert a grievance into any thread - even in the context of talking about future releases, is perplexing. Obviously some developers take this in stride. But I also hope this is not a culture where a certain temperament is given more credence over others, or where gender specific jargon (no matter how rhetorical), is invoked as a standard of one’s tenacity. 

I personally regard developer participation here as a luxury - and a gift - irrespective of what investments I may have made in their products, or how they may be using V.I. Control to promote their efforts. Ultimately, my affirmation is reflected in a credit card balance. The primary reason I joined, was in recognizing this unique relationship with composers and those behind the tools, and the extra benefit of such conversations, apart from the personal communications that many - like Spitfire - maintain with individual customers via support channels. 

And speaking of - I have numerous inquiries and comments that I have exchanged with Spitfire for two years, and never once have they made me feel inferior, condescended to me in any way, or considered my questions to be irrelevant. 

I am of the opinion that there is a bit of projecting that takes place in these forums as well, where the bad experience of a past interaction gets salvoed onto someone else. Overall, I think the tone of many posts is ultimately positive, but I do sometimes wonder if some are critiquing for the benefit of seeing a company improve, or if there is a vendetta to see someone taken down. 

I’ve read a lot of comments and opinions, from both related threads, and think there could be a bit more discipline when it comes to conjectures. I personally am not of the opinion that open season can be declared at the whim of any user (and a chorus of +1 voices), but rather, there need to be safeguards that ensure focus and civility of tone. If this is codified in rules that govern these forums (and I believe they are), it perhaps needs to be observed more astutely. 

Otherwise, the blurred line between the so-called opinions of some, and the abusive intent of others, will sink even the most well-intentioned posts. To that end, one can not simply point to a ratio of positive and negative comments as a definitive indicator of anything, when the scale is precariously calibrated to always lean in one direction. That is by design, of course (it is the composer’s forum, after all), but this should not be confused as a license for anyone to declare another participant a punching bag. 

Greg


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## AC986 (Dec 8, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Dec 07 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I think he was joking. Irony and all of that?
> ...



English humour dear boy. Definitely wouldn't have been lost on Spitfire I can assure you. No need to worry.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 8, 2013)

adriancook @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> ...



But this is a global forum, laddie, where for many users English is a second language and such humor is lost on others, and easily misinterpreted.

Knock your socks off...


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## germancomponist (Dec 8, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> adriancook @ Sun Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Alexander @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> ...



+100

Irony is my favorite virtue. Too bad that it is often not detected as such by many. It must be a language thing!?


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## AC986 (Dec 8, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> adriancook @ Sun Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Alexander @ Sat Dec 07 said:
> ...



My dear fellow. English is a second language for the majority of Americans but that's never stopped them for moment has it. 

See how easy irony is? Even Americans get it occasionally.


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## germancomponist (Dec 8, 2013)

In the future, when I use some irony, I will say it clear by adding an (irony on) button... .


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 8, 2013)

adriancook @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > adriancook @ Sun Dec 08 said:
> ...



You keep ignoring the point that clarity in communication, especially in a forum, eliminates problems before they begin.


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## germancomponist (Dec 8, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> You keep ignoring the point that clarity in communication, especially in a forum, eliminates problems before they begin.



+1


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## AC986 (Dec 8, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > You keep ignoring the point that clarity in communication, especially in a forum, eliminates problems before they begin.
> ...



(Sarcasm coming your way)

Oh yeah! +1 to your +1 and I raise you another +2.

I definitely agree on this point. If only people would say before they say anything that it's in fact a joke/irony/sarcasm, what a better world it could be. America could join the EU and there would be peace all over the world forever. 

I mean who needs problems on a forum. 

Mr Burns can obviously speak and read English based on his reply to Mr Riffs quite well. I cannot understand your point other than you are either completely without humour or just utter cretins. But hey! That's just me. o-[][]-o


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 8, 2013)

I want choco in on this thread, and I want him NOW.


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## Ian Dorsch (Dec 8, 2013)

Yeah. We need some kind of Bat-signal for him.


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## sin(x) (Dec 8, 2013)

Maybe he appears when you say his name three times?


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 8, 2013)

An alternative to using smileys and emoticons (or indeed anything else that is the internet equivalent of glittery stickers in a fourteen year old girl's secret diary) is to... erm... I don't know... hurl ourselves down the nearest staircase?

Fair enough, English is not everybody's first language, but please let's not make emoticons everybody's second language. Otherwise we might as well start communicating in real life by using fridge magnets and gonks.


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 8, 2013)

@TheUnfinished As someone that frequently uses emoticons to indicate the tone in which something should be read, I have to respectfully disagree with the way you characterize them. They are not like "stickers", they are more like stage directions. They are clearly accepted to have some level of use in this forum, or else there wouldn't be a list of them on the left for easy access every time the user hit "Post Reply".

Of course if you would prefer that we actually used literal stage directions, than I'm happy to use that instead. But as several posts have recently demonstrated, there is real necessity for some form of tone indication, because people keep misinterpreting the tone in which posts are written.

If you have a more effective method, however, I am very open to using an alternate one.  My only concern is that there be an explicit and unambiguous one of some kind, whether it be emoticons or otherwise.


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## germancomponist (Dec 8, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> An alternative to using smileys and emoticons (or indeed anything else that is the internet equivalent of glittery stickers in a fourteen year old girl's secret diary) is to... erm... I don't know... hurl ourselves down the nearest staircase?
> 
> Fair enough, English is not everybody's first language, but please let's not make emoticons everybody's second language. Otherwise we might as well start communicating in real life by using fridge magnets and gonks.





But, when it comes to joking, irony, it seems that there are big differences in the languages... . I have so often burned me with my irony, I will let it better... .


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## AC986 (Dec 8, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> hurl ourselves down the nearest staircase.



I agree. But you can never find a staircase when you need one.


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## airflamesred (Dec 8, 2013)

Irony, the wife does that, usually on a Tuesday night.


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## AC986 (Dec 8, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> But, when it comes to joking, irony, it seems that there are big differences in the languages... . I have so often burned me with my irony, I will let it better... .



Gunther. You may easily be the funniest German on the entire planet and believe me, I have extensive experience in spotting things like that almost instinctively.

Hahah. Who says Germans aren't fun. Don't know what they're talking about.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm looking at the emoticons to the left as I write this and I can't find the one that indicates when you're writing something completely devoid of any humour or perspective...


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 8, 2013)

@TheUnfinished <With a wink> Looking at something without humor is one perspective that people can view things through. Why not address it? <Good natured smile>


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## sin(x) (Dec 8, 2013)

Somebody should put a blanket over this thread's head and snap its neck. It would be the humane thing to do.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 8, 2013)

sin(x) @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> Somebody should put a blanket over this thread's head and snap its neck. It would be the humane thing to do.



Oh, maybe we don't need choco after all...


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## Ed (Dec 8, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Sun Dec 08 said:


> An alternative to using smileys and emoticons (or indeed anything else that is the internet equivalent of glittery stickers in a fourteen year old girl's secret diary) is to... erm... I don't know... hurl ourselves down the nearest staircase?
> 
> Fair enough, English is not everybody's first language, but please let's not make emoticons everybody's second language. Otherwise we might as well start communicating in real life by using fridge magnets and gonks.



I HATE YOU MATT DIE DIE DIE WHY WHY WHY OH MY OH MY. 

o=? o[]) :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:


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## Hannes_F (Dec 8, 2013)

Should we do a poll about deletion of this thread?

Or simply hit the button?


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## KingIdiot (Dec 9, 2013)

personally I LOVE reading through the history of forums I become a part of and love seeing, not only drama, but resolution unfold. Also the hilarity of personalities (I'm sorry Peter, I find this place full of humor and personality and I appreciate it).

Communities should be breathing and probably full of drama, because passions tend to get involved. I think showing that we can still all come out of it alive and aware is much better than sweeping it under the rug.

It's the fun as well as the information that keeps me coming back. So everybody be boring so I can go back to using my time more wisely.

o-[][]-o


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 9, 2013)

Fun thread!

I would go out and hunt Choco, but it's way too early, it's snowing, and he's probably passed out in a dumpster, Frank Gallagher-style.


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## Daryl (Dec 9, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Mon Dec 09 said:


> Should we do a poll about deletion of this thread?
> 
> Or simply hit the button?


If you're going to start deleting threads because the are pointless, full of inaccuracies and contain lots of childish behaviour, you might as well delete the Internet. :twisted: 

D


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