# Thoughts on leaving LA



## Greg (Aug 5, 2018)

So there are tons of posts about coming to LA but I couldn't find any about leaving. Was wondering how it worked out for those of you that left? Do you have any regrets?

Cost, heat, and over population are at the top of my list for wanting to bail. All those things seem to be getting worse. Especially doesn't seem promising for someone considering buying a home in the next 2-3 years. What are your thoughts?


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## gsilbers (Aug 5, 2018)

Oh my yes. Los angeles housing and traffics are unbearable. Excpt for those who bought a price a long time ago and live next to their jobs. 

Still, LA offers the oporpunity to running into opportunities. Outside of LA the film and music community is different. 
The rest of the USA seems to be still keen on rock and rap/edm music. And next to zero film scoring or at least not decent enough. 

Right now the LA housing prices are just to crazy. I undertsand that there is a lot of poeple who want to live in LA but imo, we are living in a period of time where housing is in very low supply because of the recession 10 years ago. There was almost nothing being built for 4-6 years after that and slowly trickled after that. So now with the influx of people, LA people who have beel living here but now are looking to buy and just plain old demographics situations makes it incredible expensive to buy a home.. and imo the main issue is thayt everyone in LA still thinks of buying a home aka house. Way to many people come from middle america where having a house is normal and having an apt makes little sense. so now everyone wasnt to buy a house in a very very overpopulated area of the country. 

On the other issue, traffic. For those guys who want to buy a house, they can only affor so in the east, and all the post jobs are in the west. Also in the north valley or somewhere very south. 
Therefore traffic keeps piling up and piling up almost to halt in the westside. 

So the average cost of a house in LA is now about $600k+ 
I even saw a burned out house being offered at $800k in eagle rock. 


Anyways.. im sure you know all of this. 
The main answer of course is if you have income doing music or the connections to get gigs. 
other than that i dont see why not. poeple in smaller cities are very cool and friendly. In LA and nyc and boston i noticed people are much much less friendly. more poeple, more distrust or subconcious effort to dismiss them unless they offer something good gigwise. there are exceptions of course.. but in general thats my impression from living in those places. 

There are satellite cities around. Like santa barbara and hang out with trevor morris. or palmdale and hang out with metheads  
Or just head east in upland/rancho cucamonga and those places which are technically "la" but far enough for good home prices. 

This guys lived in LA and left:

https://www.youtube.com/user/nickmurrayvideos/videos


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## Greg (Aug 5, 2018)

I'm lucky that 95% of my income is from royalties / licensing and I work 100% from home. I work mostly on trailers and they barely have time for a phone call much less a physical meeting.

Strongly considering Colorado near Breckenridge or Boulder. Me and my partner love the outdoors and the chill lifestyle there. I think it would be massively beneficial for our creativity and well being. Santa Barbara is awesome but the housing prices are still pretty nuts.


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## chimuelo (Aug 5, 2018)

My family members still live in Santa Ana Hills and Balboa.
My ancient great Uncle passed away at 96 and my Aunt is 91.
She sold the house for 725,000 and moved in with relatives in Oak Run up north.
They paid 42,000 for the house in 1972, and my Aunt went to LA High, lived in LA her whole life.
All of my other relatives are up and down 99 from Tulare to Modesto.
Even their property is ridiculously high, but they’re farmers, so the entire western states have skyrocketed.
My 90,000 dollar home in NNevada sold for 520,000 a few months back.
But that was the price in the late 80s.
Even here a crappy neighborhood cracker box with no basement is 350,000.
Sold my house in NashVegas 3 months ago and even it was pretty high.
I made 40k per year over a 4 year period.
Thought 350k would get me a great house in NNevada until I started looking.
We’re at SanFrancisco prices here.
A nice place, not even with a basement is 500,000.
I dumped my cash in the markets and bought an RV with big slide outs for when I hang in Tahoe.
Parking is 550 a month, but the view is to die for.
When the bubble breaks I’ll buy a house again.


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## SillyMidOn (Aug 6, 2018)

Greg said:


> I'm lucky that 95% of my income is from royalties / licensing and I work 100% from home. I work mostly on trailers and they barely have time for a phone call much less a physical meeting.
> 
> Strongly considering Colorado near Breckenridge or Boulder. Me and my partner love the outdoors and the chill lifestyle there. I think it would be massively beneficial for our creativity and well being. Santa Barbara is awesome but the housing prices are still pretty nuts.


If you mostly write for trailers you absolutely do not need to be in LA at all. You could be cooped up in Greenland and make the same amount of money. Seriously.


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## Loïc D (Aug 6, 2018)

Out of curiosity, just a question for ppl currently working in LA or ppl who already left.
What is the importance of "living in LA" standing regarding the business?
Do you feel that, even if you do a 100% home working, you're looked down / snobbed at when you don't live "in the place"?


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## Quasar (Aug 6, 2018)

LA remains the only large city in the Western World built entirely around the logistics of universal automobile use, which is to say that it's architecturally pathological. I had the misfortune of spending several months there once, and it remains by far most surrealistically nightmarish environment I've ever seen. LA is far creepier than even the worst crime-ridden slums of the decaying rust belt cities, which at least convey some sense of _reality,_ as opposed to a landscape characterized by Disney-esque denial and worlds hidden within worlds separated by panoramic facades of natural beauty cobwebbed in sociopathic traffic patterns & parking garage alienation.

I very much hope never to get within 500 miles of the place again.


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## chillbot (Aug 6, 2018)

Wow.

Yes please don't come here we have enough peoples as is.

Leaving sounds pretty good too. See you!


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## CT (Aug 6, 2018)

Well I don't have thoughts on leaving, since I never even got there. 

I was convinced moving to Hollywood was what I *had* to do for years.

I fell out of love with that idea thanks to hearing more and more people complain about the stuff you mentioned, and other stuff too (cost, traffic, monolithic seasons, overcrowding, earthquakes/mudslides/wildfires, etc.). Plus, there's the difficulty of the industry itself.

At the same time, I fell back in love with my real home (NYC suburbs/Hudson Valley) and everything great about it that my Westward tunnel vision had made me ignore.

I absolutely love Charlie's and chillbot's L.A. posts though. Their enthusiasm for it is infectious, and obviously it's the place to be to chase certain ambitions.

Ultimately, I guess I would just rather live somewhere that I feel that type of connection to, and which has some potential even though it isn't the scoring capital of the world, than uproot everything to go across the country to a place with a lot of strikes against it for me, just for a ticket to the rat race.

I'm sorry to my younger self if that's giving up on "the dream" somehow.


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## JohnG (Aug 6, 2018)

I like living in Los Angeles. Nobody cares what your parents did, whether you went to university (or which one), if your English is excellent or so-so. They just want to know what you can DO. It does help a lot of you're good-looking and entertaining, but it is the entertainment business after all. One can't expect everything

For civic beauty, I would rather live in Rome or Amsterdam or a number of other places, but my family lives here, I have a few connections here and we do have the beach and sunshine, and interesting cultural variety.

Life is full of disappointments, setbacks, tradeoffs and loss. No matter where you go it's a struggle. It's important to try to be grateful, to try to be compassionate, and that's true wherever you travel. I haven't lived that many places but I've found a way around the traffic -- a prosaic but serious issue -- and have met great people here.


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## Quasar (Aug 6, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Wow.
> 
> Yes please don't come here we have enough peoples as is.
> 
> Leaving sounds pretty good too. See you!


I did meet some wonderful people there. None of my criticisms of LA are directed at individual people...


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## gsilbers (Aug 6, 2018)

LowweeK said:


> Out of curiosity, just a question for ppl currently working in LA or ppl who already left.
> What is the importance of "living in LA" standing regarding the business?
> Do you feel that, even if you do a 100% home working, you're looked down / snobbed at when you don't live "in the place"?




having worked in the mayor studios and post houses in LA for big shows... I can say its all about personal relationships.
Thats why remote control is in LA. thats why all the big trailer companies are in LA. Those guys mingle somewhere somehow. by hanging out at the same kids 3 year old parties, or meeting at a bar with a friend in a group setting.
Coming from the same school, being friends with the roomate, belonging to the same ping pong or soccer club etc etc.
Of course it also involved being professional and having a good biz reputation. but if i can choose between my friend who i hang out sometimes at parties and trust him vs some random company in atlanta or greenland with a nice website and some good credits .. who do you think ill choose. of course there are caveats and different examples. but time after time ive seen friends and collegues just get the gig becuase of the relashionships. the guy who mixes a tv show strikes a friendship with the producer who is also a music supervisor and decides to create an LLC and ask for music from friends and posting an ad. right then the music mixer goes from 30-55 bucks an hour to getting a bunch of publishing income by only having a friendly relationship with the right person. of course this leads to the whole fake LA thing. people will be nice until they see no potential and move on. other times not. so each case depends.
So i had the chance to meet folks at remote control like hans and others, famous directors, etc which if at the time i had my shiat together maybe something would of happen. but i see friends who worked at remote now have their own tv shows, friends who invested in opening a company in venice/santa monica area and get some crazy good gigs.. and basically because of relationships. And also you start to see that suddenly scoring a huge buget movie is not as a far away dream as it would seem. its seomthing attainable since you start to meet these "mortals" scoring them and their rigs and so on. But later see their relashionships with directors and the different web of connections and suddenly realize filmscoring and music for media has a lot to do with the friends you make in LA.
Then again.. fuking traffic..


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 6, 2018)

LA - I LOVE IT!

It's a beautiful city.


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## MatFluor (Aug 6, 2018)

With the current leadership and economy - I could imagine it being pretty hard to get a green card to "just move there and pursue the dream" kind of thing?

Yes, going minimally off topic, but still


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## jneebz (Aug 6, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Life is full of disappointments, setbacks, tradeoffs and loss. No matter where you go it's a struggle. It's important to try to be grateful, to try to be compassionate, and that's true wherever you travel. I haven't lived that many places but I've found a way around the traffic -- a prosaic but serious issue -- and have met great people here.


Great words, thanks John.


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## brenneisen (Aug 6, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> With the current leadership and economy - I could imagine it being pretty hard to get a green card to "just move there and pursue the dream" kind of thing?



0-1 visa still the ""easiest"" way to get in


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## studiostuff (Aug 6, 2018)

Greg said:


> Strongly considering Colorado near Breckenridge or Boulder. Me and my partner love the outdoors and the chill lifestyle there. I think it would be massively beneficial for our creativity and well being. Santa Barbara is awesome but the housing prices are still pretty nuts.


Colorado is horrible, especially Boulder. Breck is the worst... 

Do NOT go anywhere near Colorado. I can't begin to say how bad it is there. 

Oh, my GOD. Two seasons per year: Smoke and Snow. 

I predict you will move there and absolutely hate, hate, hate it. 

Let me know when you get here, and the first round is on me


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## Greg (Aug 6, 2018)

studiostuff said:


> Colorado is horrible, especially Boulder. Breck is the worst...
> 
> Do NOT go anywhere near Colorado. I can't begin to say how bad it is there.
> 
> ...



Hahaha, I'm actually crazy enough to think I might enjoy the winter. Born and raised in Wisconsin & I love winter sports. The winter blues can be a great catalyst for writing dark & depressing music from what I can remember :D

I absolutely love LA aside from the things I mentioned. Hence why I'm not so sure about moving yet. Owning a property asap is a huge priority of mine though and the biggest factor in my decision.


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## tmhuud (Aug 6, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Wow.
> 
> Yes please don't come here we have enough peoples as is.
> 
> Leaving sounds pretty good too. See you!



Couldn’t agree more.


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## studiostuff (Aug 6, 2018)

Greg said:


> Hahaha, I'm actually crazy enough to think I might enjoy the winter. Born and raised in Wisconsin & I love winter sports. The winter blues can be a great catalyst for writing dark & depressing music from what I can remember :D
> 
> I absolutely love LA aside from the things I mentioned. Hence why I'm not so sure about moving yet. Owning a property asap is a huge priority of mine though and the biggest factor in my decision.



Colorado winter is many folks favorite part of the year. They have this invention called clothing here, so the cold is not really an issue. I ski excessively, so there's that. 

Breck is very nice, although it's on the edge of a little far from the Denver airport (2.5 hours on a good day). Travel into and out of the Denve/Boulder area east or west on I-70 is actual HELL on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, pretty much year round. 

Property costs in Breck and Boulder are approaching unobtainium levels. Denver is not far behind. The music scene in Colorado generally is pretty incredible. Lots of bluegrass, string music, alt... all very well done. Incredible muso talent here. 

But if the bulk of your work is possible long-distance, this is a spectacular place. I do a lot long-D, and the airport in Denver connects everywhere when ya gotta go. Plus, there is the magic of being up in the hills. Pretty overpowering.

Come check it. I think you could live here a lot cheaper than in LA. And I don't think your location will effect your income as much as you think. It's incredibly beautiful in much of the state.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 7, 2018)

As I have said I moved to LA in 1972 and the only reason I still live in LA is because my daughter has to live here (although she also would like to leave) and my wife will simply not move away from her.

But if you have a lot of money, really highly value sunny days, and want to be able to drive to the beach to surf and the mountains to ski, I can understand why you would disagree with me.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm a good petri dish example. I went to school in LA (college age), fought to stay there, failed as a guitarist, went to Vegas for 7 yrs... succeeded, found my way back to LA, landed some good guitar gigs but switched to composing, succeeded and kind of left as I am in Santa Barbara now. I did live in LA for about 25 yrs before leaving. The relationships I created in Los Angeles were difference makers in creating my career, I could not have done it in Santa Barbara (I know some who have started and lived here exclusively and do major work). That said once I was somewhat established I had the freedom to move wherever I wanted. We (my wife and I) chose Santa Barbara so I could get to LA if I needed to, but mostly to see old friends (going to Woodland Hills Saturday, about an hour drive). Going to bars, parties, playing tennis, golf etc with people who are in the industry can be huge, sitting in front of a computer on Skype a thousand miles away is not the same thing. If you are established you can choose lifestyle, if not you can still make a living but you won't have access to the myriad of possibilities LA can offer. Living in LA, some like, some don't, I liked it as I am kind of a stimulus junkie but SB feels like an upgrade in lifestyle with great weather unless there is a fire, I don't hear the 101 freeway when I wake in the morning and I don't see brown air. My band rehearses 5 minutes from me and if a friend says "you want to come hang at my crib, sorry you have to drive 15 minutes to get here" I think you've got to be kidding.... BTW my bandmates have some pretty major credits as sidemen and you can find that in a lot of towns but composing is a different thing (there are composers here too).


Greg, look into Ventura, you get most of what SB has at a smaller price, a bit grittier but it is cool and you have kind of escaped LA but there are a lot of industry pros who live there .


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## chillbot (Aug 7, 2018)

Craig Sharmat said:


> golf.


You had me at "sandpiper".


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## Ashermusic (Aug 7, 2018)

Craig Sharmat said:


> I'm a good petri dish example. I went to school in LA (college age), fought to stay there, failed as a guitarist, went to Vegas for 7 yrs... succeeded, found my way back to LA, landed some good guitar gigs but switched to composing, succeeded and kind of left as I am in Santa Barbara now. I did live in LA for about 25 yrs before leaving. The relationships I created in Los Angeles were difference makers in creating my career, I could not have done it in Santa Barbara. That said once I was somewhat established I had the freedom to move wherever I wanted. We (my wife and I) chose Santa Barbara so I could get to LA if I needed to, but mostly to see old friends (going to Woodland Hills Saturday, about an hour drive). Going to bars, parties, playing tennis, golf etc with people who are in the industry can be huge, sitting in front of a computer on Skype a thousand miles away is not the same thing. If you are established you can choose lifestyle, if not you can still make a living but you won't have access to the myriad of possibilities LA can offer. Living in LA, some like, some don't, I liked it as I am kind of a stimulus junkie but SB feels like an upgrade in lifestyle with great weather unless there is a fire, I don't hear the 101 freeway when I wake in the morning and I don't see brown air. My band rehearses 5 minutes from me and if a friend says "you want to come hang at my crib, sorry you have to drive 15 minutes to get here" I think you've got to be kidding.... BTW my bandmates have some pretty major credits as sidemen and you can find that in a lot of towns but composing is a different thing (there are composers here too).
> 
> 
> Greg, look into Ventura, you get most of what SB has at a smaller price, a bit grittier but it is cool and you have kind of escaped LA but there are a lot of industry pros who live there .



But Craig, you and I started in a different era, when library composing was not a goal for us and when we could make money playing live.

Anecdotally, Craig had a lovely home in a canyon but every time I had to go through all those narrow roads to get to it I was cursing.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 7, 2018)

Yes Jay, but also when getting composing gigs I would still end up hanging with composers who eventually would find me ghosting gigs or suggest me for a gig they did not want to do, this was before the library thing started to hit big. I know a lot of want to be composers would locate a party circuit in hopes of meeting up and coming directors, others start as underlings for major composers and branch out, most still have to happen in LA for that kind of work. Many major composers leave LA once established and choose a different lifestyle, a lot stick around.

Nothing quite gets you going in the morning than seeing a sports car heading at you at 50mph on a twisted lane with barely enough room for a single SUV.


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 7, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> My family members still live in Santa Ana Hills and Balboa.
> My ancient great Uncle passed away at 96 and my Aunt is 91.
> She sold the house for 725,000 and moved in with relatives in Oak Run up north.
> They paid 42,000 for the house in 1972, and my Aunt went to LA High, lived in LA her whole life.
> ...


The RV Life is where it's at. Look into fifth wheel toy haulers, build a studio in the garage, hit the road and do everything online. Your office is in the mountains, the deserts, next to a lake etc..


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## Mike Greene (Aug 7, 2018)

Coming to Los Angeles in the hopes of working in music is a gamble. The odds of succeeding are much, much higher here than elsewhere, but they are still stacked heavily against you. If someone is young and single, then I'd recommend rolling the dice. Older and married with kids ... I'd think a little harder about the decision.

There are a few misconceptions I'd like to address, though. First, yes, property in Los Angles is expensive, but that has little to do with the entertainment industry. (The entirety of the entertainment industry doesn't add up to the number one, or even number two or three, biggest industries here.) Property is expensive here because this is a very desirable place to place. Supply and demand. The beaches, the weather, the culture (contrary to the old cliche - our art and theater are second only to New York, and with all due respect, our symphony blows NY away), the healthy lifestyle (have you seen the moms, or dads for that matter, at my kid's school???), the food and international cuisine, the sports, and even all the extra bonuses, like the fact that Los Angeles can host Olympics and Super Bowls and AES and NAMM ... so what for other people is a whole trip with planes and hotels, we simply roll out of bed and drive there.

So yes, Los Angeles is expensive, but you do get a lot for that property dollar, even aside from the proximity to "the industry." Whether it's worth it or not is up to any individual person, of course, but like New York or San Francisco or other high dollar cities, property is expensive because ... people want to live here! If I hadn't gotten lucky with music, I'd still stay here and probably be working as a teacher.

Another misconception is traffic. Yes, it can be bad, but it ain't _that_ bad. And it sure isn't any worse than other cities I visit. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Boston and San Francisco and New York and Philadelphia and Seattle and ...) People who complain about long drives are usually the people who are driving from Burbank to Santa Monica. For those people, you have to ask ... what the hell are you doing living in Burbank and working in Santa Monica???

In that same vein, Topanga and Ventura and Malibu are fantastic places to live ... but they are FAR from everything. Only live in those places AFTER you've "made it." Sure, there are some industry people that live in those places, but if you're moving to Los Angeles for the proximity to the industry, you're going to have far fewer chance encounters with a music supervisor in those areas than you would if you lived in West Hollywood or Sherman Oaks. My first record session gig was because the guy in the apartment next door (West Hollywood) was producing a rap record and didn't know any keyboard players. My first Mattel commercial was because of a low-limit poker game (Koreatown) where one guy was a director unhappy with the usual composers. Los Angeles is crawling with guys (and gals) like that, neither of whom could afford Malibu or Topanga.

Even deeper down that vein, my wife and I have toyed with the idea of living in Ventura or Malibu or Topanga. (Or Santa Barbara or San Luis Obispo or Oceanside or ...) They're really nice, and that's why Charlie and Craig and John G (already established guys, mind you) live there. Every time I visit those places, I think, _"Wow, it would be great to live here!"_

We're staying (for now, at least) in Studio City, though, because it's fairly central. I don't need to be here for work as much anymore (although random stuff still does happen), but for the theater and the L.A. Philharmonic and the Dodgers and Lakers and all sorts of other stuff that makes Los Angeles a desirable place to live. Location, location, location. I love Topanga, but a drive every few weeks from Topanga to Disney Hall or the Ahmanson Theater would make us want to cancel our season tickets.

On a different, although more pertinent topic, another misconception is that the music industry is dead. It's evolved, but it ain't dead. Granted, "Movies of the Week" are gone, and TV music budgets are slashed, and the record business is half what it used to be. But ... far more TV shows and movies are made today than ten years ago. ASCAP and BMI royalties are higher than they were ten years ago. Ad agencies will still pay a pile of money for a custom scored spot. Not just veterans, but lots and lots of newcomers are making it in this business.

In fact, I lost an assistant earlier this year because he started getting song placements and got a very lucrative publishing deal where one stipulation was he couldn't work outside jobs (specifically for me) anymore. His success could only have happened in Los Angeles, because he had also interned in an active local recording studio (mine is the opposite of "active" nowadays), which is where he met the contacts that got him his placements.

That's a totally typical L.A. story. In my own case, my first song that got placed on a Vanessa Williams record was because of people I met at local sessions. A bunch of other records I produced or recorded were because the labels are here and they knew me from other records. Nobody is ever going to say, _"Well, Mike is pretty good, but I wonder if some guy in Nebraska might be better? With the internet and ftp, it's practically just as good!"_ (No disrespect to Nebraska. It's just that if my smilin' face happens to drop by their offices at the same time they're looking at an email from some guy in Nebraska, who do you think is going to get the gig?)

None of this is to say anyone *should* move to or stay in Los Angeles. It's a gamble and unless you're young and single, the stakes are high. If Greg has a family and kids, bailing may very well be the smart thing to do, although speaking as someone who loves L.A., I'd first consider a straight job (teacher, accountant, contractor, whatever) here. Property here is more expensive, but pay for most regular jobs is also higher.


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## chillbot (Aug 7, 2018)

I thought this thread was going to be a bit different about *leaving* LA but it has evolved into yet another "why live in LA" thread. Oh well, I'm not complaining. But this has been hashed over way more than a dozen times in so many different ways. So many threads...



Mike Greene said:


> Nobody is ever going to say, _"Well, Mike is pretty good, but I wonder if some guy in Nebraska might be better? With the internet and ftp, it's practically just as good!"_ (No disrespect to Nebraska. It's just that if my smilin' face happens to drop by their offices at the same time they're looking at an email from some guy in Nebraska, who do you think is going to get the gig?)


Every single time I hear "if you do trailers/libraries/whatever it doesn't matter where you live" I have to roll my eyes. Just keep believing that.



Mike Greene said:


> In that same vein, Topanga and Ventura and Malibu are fantastic places to live ...


Would like to throw in a shout out for the mountain areas as well. The beaches are amazing but I always feel claustrophobically trapped by the weight of Los Angeles on one side and the ocean on the other, there's no where to go. Yes SB and northern areas are better, but obviously much farther. If you want to remain close to LA without feeling trapped by smog and traffic... the air feels a bit cleaner up here and it's usually about 10-15 degrees cooler than the valley (I'm at roughly 1,800 feet elevation compared to about 600 feet in the valley, Burbank to Woodland Hills). I can walk out my front door and 1/4 mile from my house there is a trailhead which connects to the Pacific Crest Trail where you can walk to either Mexico or Canada, your choice. (My dad did the walk one summer starting in Mexico and ending in Canada, I joined him for about 200 miles.) Anyway I love getting lost in the mountains for the day, I'll pack a lunch and go on a 20-30 mile walkabout and never see another person. Take that, Griffith Park.

The flip side of course is I'm on the polar opposite side of the city from Santa Monica, could take 2-3 hours to get there depending on the time of day. But only 15 minutes removed from Burbank.


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## chimuelo (Aug 7, 2018)

My favorite quote about the LA smog.


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## NoamL (Aug 7, 2018)

I absolutely hate it. 

Grew up in the Bay Area, went to college in eastern Washington and NYC, then moved here. I've lived here since 2013 and I've yet to see a real positive about this place other than the industry opportunities. Last year I helped orchestrate some concerts for a composer who lives back and forth between Seattle & Burbank and he hosted me at his place. Seattle is unbelievable. It's cold, the air is clear, you feel the ocean... I fucking _love_ winter and LA barely has it.

Also I took these two photos 2 hours apart when I was exploring the city the day before the concert.







Everyone should be leaving LA as soon as they can. Buying a house here seems borderline insane to me. 

I probably won't live in Seattle proper but somewhere on the PNW coast would be ideal. By the way the North California coast is starkly beautiful too. I heard that Alan Silvestri lives in Carmel or somewhere like that.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 7, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> The RV Life is where it's at. Look into fifth wheel toy haulers, build a studio in the garage, hit the road and do everything online. Your office is in the mountains, the deserts, next to a lake etc..



There was a mixer or orchestrator guy, and maybe you are him that had an article in the paper about 5-6 yrs about how he travels the country and does his work where ever he wants and occasionally would drive back to say Burbank for the occasional gig he had in town. Sounds ideal for a single guy.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 7, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I absolutely hate it.
> 
> I probably won't live in Seattle proper but somewhere on the PNW coast would be ideal. By the way the North California coast is starkly beautiful too. I heard that Alan Silvestri lives in Carmel or somewhere like that.



I believe Silvestri lives in Pebble Beach and my wife and I are considering a move to Carmel eventually once we have had enough of SB. We love the central coast though fires have become a real issue.


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## brenneisen (Aug 7, 2018)

NoamL said:


> It's cold, the air is clear, you feel the ocean... I fucking _love_ winter and LA barely has it.



sounds like Vancouver and it's just 3hs from LA; and the (brief) summer is really cool


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 7, 2018)

brenneisen said:


> sounds like Vancouver and it's just 3hs from LA; and the (brief) summer is really cool



What's 3 hours from LA?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 7, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Another misconception is traffic. Yes, it can be bad, but it ain't _that_ bad. And it sure isn't any worse than other cities I visit



You got that right! I have spent some time in LA (mostly west Hollywood) and have driven around LA in rush hour. Yes, it's bad, but not much different from here in Calgary....and we only have a million people (Toronto is waaaaay worse than LA). LA has it right with the freeway merge lanes; those traffic lights that tell you when to step on it (believe me, it works).

$600K for an average house price? Not too bad. It's about the same in Calgary...Vancouver is more like a million dollars minimum. So really, it's all relative. There's a part of me that regrets not moving down to LA when I was young and single, as that's the perfect scenario. Otherwise, I would never consider it at this point in life. Unless, of course, I had a win fall and could move to Malibu


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## Dirk Ehlert (Aug 7, 2018)

Thx @Mike Greene , pretty much that sums up my experiences as well. I'm the greenhorn that is exactly going through all these phases... A came here from a good 10k miles away (Germany, Berlin) 4 months ago, made the wise decision to head out further east to be able to afford a somewhat decent living style (especially since my wife is here on an O3, so for the time being she's a little stuck in just enjoying the nice weather n stuff - I know, could be worse  ) but nevertheless it forces us to not look for a studio or sth but at least a 2BR so we're still able to look each other in the eye after a few years (or even months). So that means right now it's a one hour ride to Santa Monica when things go well and a 2.30 hr drive when things don't. And although traffic for sure piles up towards the west, it is actually no worse than any other Major city I have experienced traffic in. Berlin, London, Paris... in comparison LA is actually a breeze to drive (at least for me).
That is when you are able to plan your pattern away from rushhour times. So for me for example, when I need to go to Santa Monica, I usually leave here at around 10 / 10.30 a.m. (I always schedule meetings for noon and later) and then spend my afternoon / early eve either with other meetings or take a swim at the beach before headin home at 7/9 pm, so traffic is bearable then. Plus utilizing fasttrak helps a lot.

But what I wanted to actually say is, I've moved 10k miles to be physically "closer to the spot" and after these mere 4 months we are here now, we're now thinking of how we can affort to move to Santa Monica / Marina Del Rey, etc, so pretty much anything that is within a 10/15 min distance from Santa Monica, or closer to Burbank (but we prefer the coastal climate). I think for starters like me who need to get their foot into the door, I think it's essential to get as close to the heart as possible, once you've build your rep / a name / some success in whatever form, you can get away from thew "heart" to the nicer, respectively more affordable areas further out.
But wanting to get close for sure comes at a hefty pricetag.

D


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## CT (Aug 7, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> with all due respect, our symphony blows NY away







Mike Greene said:


> (Yes, I'm looking at you, Boston and San Francisco and New York and Philadelphia and Seattle and ...)



But in those places (New York, at least; cant speak for the others as much), you can actually rely on public transportation to avoid most driving!


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## NoamL (Aug 7, 2018)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> But what I wanted to actually say is, I've moved 10k miles to be physically "closer to the spot" and after these mere 4 months we are here now we're now thinking of howwe can affort to move to Santa Monica / Marina Del Rey, etc, so pretty much anything that is within a 10/15 min distance from Santa monica, or closer to Burbank (but we prefer the coastal climate). I think for starters like me who need to get their foot into the door, I think it's essential to get as close to the heart as possible, once you've build your rep / a nem / some success in whatever form, you can get away from thew heart to the nicer, respectavely more affordable areas further out.
> But wanting to get close for sure comes at a hefty pricetag.



Try Sawtelle / Brentwood, they are just outside of Santa Monica but much cheaper and equally as nice weather. IMO Culver City / Marina Del Rey are not as nice neighborhoods.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 7, 2018)

It's true that we couldn't afford our house if we were buying it today, but after 26 years I still wake up every morning and think how lucky I am to live here. Seriously!

Of course the main reason is that we're three minutes away from Mike Greene, but it's also really beautiful here.

If you were dropped off blindfolded, you'd have no idea you're in the middle of a major world city, a 10-minute walk from hustle bustle. Los Angeles has *so* much to offer. I've lived here almost all my life, and I love it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 7, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Try Sawtelle / Brentwood, they are just outside of Santa Monica but much cheaper and equally as nice weather. IMO Culver City / Marina Del Rey are not as nice neighborhoods.



What parts of all those areas?

In other words, some of Brentwood is as expensive as it gets, some parts are filled with standard apartments (and actually I don't think Sawtelle goes as far N as Brentwood); MDR has a mix of luxury condos, yachts, kinda rank stuff, and in between; and where we used to live in Culver City - at the base of the hill off Overland, S of West LA College - is very nice, while there are also projects off Braddock!

Also, Santa Monica has a very wide range of neighborhoods, some of which aren't expensive - and for good reason.


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## gsilbers (Aug 7, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Another misconception is traffic. Yes, it can be bad, but it ain't _that_ bad. And it sure isn't any worse than other cities I visit. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Boston and San Francisco and New York and Philadelphia and Seattle and ...) People who complain about long drives are usually the people who are driving from Burbank to Santa Monica. For those people, you have to ask ... what the hell are you doing living in Burbank and working in Santa Monica???
> 
> .




im just cherry picking this sentence in an execelent post. 

but thats one of the issues in LA. People get a job in Burbank , maybe near disney or some of those post houses there. 
Life is great and suddenly, decides to buy a house cuz it makes financial sense, after 7 years get laid off or get a great oportunity to work in santa monica. Thats the two main hubs of post. Ergo, suddenly poeple are stuck with a home in burbank and cannot move to santa monica people prices around the area, even further away its hella expensive or the wife works in in another place etc. 
In the last 10 years this has become extremely worse due to housing shortage. And the streaming giants movign to mar vista and those areas.


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## Kyle Preston (Aug 7, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I absolutely hate it.
> 
> Grew up in the Bay Area, went to college in eastern Washington and NYC, then moved here. I've lived here since 2013 and I've yet to see a real positive about this place other than the industry opportunities. Last year I helped orchestrate some concerts for a composer who lives back and forth between Seattle & Burbank and he hosted me at his place. Seattle is unbelievable. It's cold, the air is clear, you feel the ocean... I fucking _love_ winter and LA barely has it.
> 
> ...



You'd certainly be welcome here @NoamL 

Seattle is remarkable! We're experiencing rising housing costs too - only getting worse (our median home price is insane, last I checked, it was $700,00+). But we've got a supportive community. Not as many composer gigs as I'd like but working the internet makes up for it. The trails/hikes/views are better than anywhere I've ever been. Mt. Rainier, is..I had a religious experience on that thing a few years ago.

I captured some Seattle footage of my neighborhood and surrounding areas for this video if you need more convincing . If you end up here at some point, we should get coffee man.

​


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## Greg (Aug 7, 2018)

I love Ventura, and hang out there way more often than Santa Monica. It's a great little town to clear your head and relax in, Ojai too. Oregon and Washington are fantastic places too but the rain would lead us to becoming depressed hermits. 

I think composers now have a massive challenge to break into film scoring. If you can't position yourself to work for free or even pay out of your own pocket to make the gig work, then someone else will. Austin Wintory talking about paying thousands of dollars (probably over 10k?) just to record live orchestral demos for a CHANCE to get a gig on the Star Trek tv show shifted my perspective a lot. And I don't think it's wrong in any way, that's just the way things go in highly competitive fields. I also lost an awesome gig because the director found a composer that could also afford to be an executive producer.. 

That lit a big fire under my ass to make being able to work for free priority #1, well above networking, or living in the epicenter.


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## jmauz (Aug 7, 2018)

On the contrary, my wife and I actually love living in L.A. (Pasadena). We both grew up in the northeast and we love to go back to visit family (we just got back from 2 weeks on Cape Cod) but it's always nice to get back here. 

Yes it's expensive, yes there are lots of ppl, yes it's hot as hades in the summer, but for now at least the pros beat out the cons. Most of all, L.A. just has a really cool uniqueness to it that I've never experienced anywhere else...and I've lived all over the country.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 7, 2018)

Greg said:


> If you can't position yourself to work for free or even pay out of your own pocket to make the gig work



Hhmmmm, not sure I agree with that. I can see doing a few freebies to get a relationship going, but that sounds a little excessive.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 8, 2018)

Here is another factor, at least in my experience. LA is a lonely town where people live very separate lives. Now some people like that when they move here from e.g. a town like Boston away from their families, nobody is up in your buisiness the way they were there. But there you were, and from what I still here, more involved with each other.

My daughter who was born and raised in LA experienced this first hand when she moved to Chicago for a year to do volunteer work. She said people were warmer, there was more of a sense of community, and when people said "we should get together" they meant it and it would happen sooner and more often.

I am a friendly person who is willing to go out of his way for people,as is my wife. But after living here since 1972, we don't have any friends who we regularly see at least twice a month and with most of them, if we don't pick up the phone and call or make arrangements to get together it would probably be months.

That is not the case with my friends and family back east. They make much more of an effort to see each other and interact.

And with no criticism intended, you notice that most of the people praising LA are pretty well to do financially and live in nice areas. I do not see people making 40k and living in Pacoima praising it much.


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## JohnG (Aug 8, 2018)

My family and I do a fair amount of volunteer work and that has helped to anchor us here. I feel far more engaged since I started doing that regularly. 

You meet all kinds of people doing it, too: people who fit the profile of volunteers -- retired, religious affiliation of some kind, parent with grown children and extra time -- but you also meet people you'd never dream work in soup kitchens. There's one guy who comes regularly who, if I met at Starbucks or something, I'd assume is entirely self-absorbed. His appearance (super fit, clearly spends way more than I do on haircuts, etc.) is that of some kind of Los Angeles 'dude,' but he shows up all the time to feed the homeless.

A good reminder not to judge people based on profession or how they dress or what car they drive and all that.

That's another thing I like about Los Angeles. People do things their own way.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 8, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> That is not the case with my friends and family back east. They make much more of an effort to see each other and interact.
> 
> And with no criticism intended, you notice that most of the people praising LA are pretty well to do financially and live in nice areas. I do not see people making 40k and living in Pacoima praising it much.



It's no fun being poor anywhere, but since you mention it, I'd rather live in South LA than in a bad area back east! 

And I haven't felt isolated living here. I see my family all the time, in fact we go on vacations together - on my side and my wife's.


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## chimuelo (Aug 8, 2018)

Hey guys I need some help since I have no family left in LA.
I’m going to pick up a car @Top Rank Imports next Thursday on West Cerritos NE of Long Beach.
What are the hours of least traffic on the 5 between Santa Clarita and Buena Park?
I’ll be sneaking down there and back via 395 and 14 over to San Fernando Valley coming from Mono Lake/Mammoth Mountain.

Thanks.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 8, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> Hey guys I need some help since I have no family left in LA.
> I’m going to pick up a car @Top Rank Imports next Thursday on West Cerritos NE of Long Beach.
> What are the hours of least traffic on the 5 between Santa Clarita and Buena Park?
> I’ll be sneaking down there and back via 395 and 14 over to San Fernando Valley.
> ...



2am


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 8, 2018)

i moved from SoCal (30+ years) to Redmond, WA on December 30, 2016.

just came back from a visit to LA.

good to be home.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 12, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Another misconception is traffic. Yes, it can be bad, but it ain't _that_ bad. And it sure isn't any worse than other cities I visit. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Boston and San Francisco and New York and Philadelphia and Seattle and ...)


I haven't owned a car since '82.


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## robgb (Aug 12, 2018)

Left LA years ago. Live north of there and love it.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 12, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> I haven't owned a car since '82.




And in Boston, the mass transit is very good and in this era of Lyft and Uber, it can actually bee less expense than to gas, insure, and maintain a car.


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## KEM (Aug 12, 2018)

Man this thread is really making it seem like it’s impossible to live there now haha, as a kid I don’t know how’d I’d even make it, but I’d love to try...


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## gsilbers (Aug 13, 2018)

jmauz said:


> On the contrary, my wife and I actually love living in L.A. (Pasadena). We both grew up in the northeast and we love to go back to visit family (we just got back from 2 weeks on Cape Cod) but it's always nice to get back here.
> 
> Yes it's expensive, yes there are lots of ppl, yes it's hot as hades in the summer, but for now at least the pros beat out the cons. Most of all, L.A. just has a really cool uniqueness to it that I've never experienced anywhere else...and I've lived all over the country.



I recently moved from pasadena (10yrs there) to highland park. Actually, up a dead end street up the hill it touches pasadena. Minor things but makes a big difference. Some drunk guy tried to get into our house and police took 45 min to get to us at 3am. Luckily the guy just fell asleep on the porche. While in pasadena police are eager beavers and get to a call immediately. Los Angeles is too big for its police force and chaotic services. 

Anyway.. what I wanted to say it’s that a lot people like Los Angeles but housing cost has made it impossible to move within the city.
The only way someone now in Los Angeles is una good place is if they bought a home around 2009-2012 or from earlier time. Or got a rent control unit that they don’t need to move from. 
But starting a family or a new job far away and needing to move then Thinking of moving from los angles becomes a very true thought.


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## charlieclouser (Aug 13, 2018)

Yes, housing costs in LA are ridonkulous (see my earlier post about the $6m house in Santa Monica).

Yes, "studio business" in LA is hard if not impossible. It looks like The Bridge is not only for sale, but is actually closing. If a place of that magnitude can't turn a healthy profit then, well....

And, working remotely, for those whose business model (libraries, trailers, etc.) aligns with that modus operandi, is easier than ever now that fast internet is everywhere. For those that have made a go if it in those markets, my hat's off to ya.

I do like it in Big Sur, Carmel, or Pebble Beach, but those are even more expensive than LA! I go to Santa Barbara often, but after a few days it kind of seems sleepy and too much like a one-stoplight kind of town. Anyplace I want to be isn't gonna be like half-priced or whatever, so I might as well stay. But then, I don't have kids, so schools and such aren't part of my equation, but I do understand wanting to raise kids outside the LA bubble.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 13, 2018)

Greg said:


> So there are tons of posts about coming to LA but I couldn't find any about leaving. Was wondering how it worked out for those of you that left? Do you have any regrets?
> 
> Cost, heat, and over population are at the top of my list for wanting to bail. All those things seem to be getting worse. Especially doesn't seem promising for someone considering buying a home in the next 2-3 years. What are your thoughts?


If it makes you feel any better, real estate is pretty bad everywhere right now. There's somewhat of a shortage, because people aren't selling, and people don't really want to buy. I could be wrong, but this looks like a bubble to me, and I really think this is going to cause a drop off in the next 2-3 years (not necessarily a crash), which will make the market more attractive for prospective buyers.


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## kurtvanzo (Aug 13, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> Hey guys I need some help since I have no family left in LA.
> I’m going to pick up a car @Top Rank Imports next Thursday on West Cerritos NE of Long Beach.
> What are the hours of least traffic on the 5 between Santa Clarita and Buena Park?
> I’ll be sneaking down there and back via 395 and 14 over to San Fernando Valley coming from Mono Lake/Mammoth Mountain.
> ...



The 5 is bad (and this is coming from someone living right next to the 10 and 405 freeways  ), usually jammed daily from 3pm to 8pm. But from 10 or 11am until 3pm is not too bad, weekends can also work, but there are still issues 4pm-7pm. If you’re going to a car dealer I would just leave at 10 or 10:30am and try to head back by 1 or 2pm. Any later and it could double your travel time.


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## kurtvanzo (Aug 13, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, housing costs in LA are ridonkulous (see my earlier post about the $6m house in Santa Monica).
> 
> Yes, "studio business" in LA is hard if not impossible. It looks like The Bridge is not only for sale, but is actually closing. If a place of that magnitude can't turn a healthy profit then, well....
> 
> ...



Hey! The bridge is being sold for only $3.6M! Charlie can’t you just grab that and set up a cot and small kitchette in one of the iso booths? You’d be right at the 5 and 134 freeways and we could all stop by to record! Win-win and saves you 2.4M 

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/736-Salem-St-Glendale-CA/5842207/

I can smash my piggie bank and split it with you 50-50. There are two booths after all.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 13, 2018)

Wow. That picture put me into paroxysms of lust.


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## JT (Aug 13, 2018)

What are property taxes like in LA?


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## chillbot (Aug 13, 2018)

JT said:


> What are property taxes like in LA?


Mine claim to be exactly 1.0% but then they add in all these additional charges and it winds up being about 1.15% which is a pretty big difference given the prices of property here.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 13, 2018)

Yeah, but for what youse guys pay you get a house. I get a postage stamp size apt for the same money.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I don't have kids, so schools and such aren't part of my equation, but I do understand wanting to raise kids outside the LA bubble.



My daughter got a *great* education here in public schools.

To be honest, it did take a lot of work on our part to find and finagle her into good ones, and it was a total nightmare every time. But I suspect that's everywhere.

(And yeah, I get that you just kinda tossed that off. I'm being a patriotic Angelino, not really talking to your post.  )


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> Yeah, but for what youse guys pay you get a house. I get a postage stamp size apt for the same money.



I don't get how so many people are able to afford to live in NY. You're shelling out money from morning to night there.

Plus they're tearing down the entire island and rebuilding it, building by building, so they can raise the prices. Can that last?


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## NYC Composer (Aug 13, 2018)

The bulk of construction started within a certain legal window. Uildingscwent up like mad. There is constant construction past the obvious commercial and residential-NYU and Columbia are, I believe, the largest owners of space in NYC and are constantly expanding.

Can it continue? I dunno. I’ve seen a few boom and bust cycles, but the price trend is inexorably up. Let’s see how much more money the Chinese and Russians try to shelter in empty 10 and 20 million dollar condos

Me, I live in an apt building that was constructed in 1909. “Pre-war”, they call it.


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## CT (Aug 13, 2018)

I would definitely not want to live *right* in Manhattan, and probably not even in any of the other boroughs.

It's all about the suburbs up the Hudson. They're not necessarily that much cheaper overall, but you do at least get real houses and decently sized properties.

Plus, although you feel a great sense of relatively tranquil suburban living (genuine suburban living, NOT the sort of cookie-cutter "suburbia" that you find elsewhere), and have the opportunity to actually be out in lovely surrounding nature, getting into the city is still a piece of cake by train, or an easy drive if you can stomach ending up there with a car.

It's the best of both worlds for me. I can't wait to get back!


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## NYC Composer (Aug 13, 2018)

Yeah, who would want to live “right” in Manhattan?

Oh yeah-me. For the past 40 years.


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## CT (Aug 13, 2018)

It's just what I'm used to. I'm sure I could get used to living right in the heart of things too, if there were a good reason, but I grew up with New York City as a wonderful place right down the river that we could go to whenever we wanted. I'm fine with keeping that arrangement!


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## NYC Composer (Aug 13, 2018)

Yeah, we all like what we like.


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## CT (Aug 13, 2018)

Yep! I'm a proud New Yorker and I'll gladly endorse the city as the "capital of the world." I just want it at arm's length.


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## Loïc D (Aug 13, 2018)

kurtvanzo said:


> Hey! The bridge is being sold for only $3.6M! Charlie can’t you just grab that and set up a cot and small kitchette in one of the iso booths? You’d be right at the 5 and 134 freeways and we could all stop by to record! Win-win and saves you 2.4M
> 
> http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/736-Salem-St-Glendale-CA/5842207/
> 
> I can smash my piggie bank and split it with you 50-50. There are two booths after all



I'm in !
I'll finance the kitchen. My wife can make gourmet meals everyday for you guys (French / Asian food).
I'll put my home studio in the janitor room, it's far larger than mine.


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## chillbot (Aug 13, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> Oh yeah-me. For the past 40 years.


Oh I finally figured out what the "NYC" stands for in your screen name.


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## gsilbers (Aug 13, 2018)

I wish LA decided to build up and do it around the downtown area. Maybe Ktown. The city keeps giving insentives to build all around which evolves into the larger issue of traffic and displacement. On huge development in studio city, another one in beverly hills another one around mid city and so on.
Instead there should earthquake proof tall residential building just like they have in Chile that not only can withstand up to level 8 shocks, but also is confortable nice for middle income families. Not made out of coardboard/drywall and wood but actual cement and not cost a fortune.
Everyone from LA comes from somehwere else in the US, and everyone from there comes from houses so they cant fathom the idea of buying an apt for the same price of house. Its so much so that they rather take 1hr+ commute. I grew in a 3 bedroom 17th floor apt and for me living in houses is pretty wierd and kinda defenseless.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 13, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Oh I finally figured out what the "NYC" stands for in your screen name.


I know-headscratcher


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 14, 2018)

miket said:


> and probably not even in any of the other boroughs



Brooklyn is really nice now.

15 years ago, no, but it's become yuppified in a nice way.


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## CT (Aug 14, 2018)

I do have some relatives there, musical ones, even! Seems like it's become very pleasant.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 14, 2018)

Home of the Man Bun.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2018)

And ironic facial hair.


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## chimuelo (Aug 29, 2018)

Thanks for the advice on times for the 405 and 5.
I got in and out thanks to the Car Pool Lanes, and jumping over to 395 to Mammoth/Yosemite is much better than the smell of Cow Shit for hours up 99 to Sacramento.
There’s a city south of Sacramento called Manteca. The piles of shit are 100 feet high and smell so bad your eyes water for 30 minutes.

Nice to see the old Redondo Beach area, and the spot where Red Onion use to be. Always loved those Gigs. 
Ended up buying the imported car. It came today.
Don’t know why my kid wants a steering wheel on the wrong side of the car, but it is a real classic Beauty that was illegal in the States until recently.


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## starise (Aug 31, 2018)

I feel almost like I briefly went to another planet reading this. This doesn't even figure into my paradigm. I have a cousin who works for NASA living in Pasadena and I occasionally hear some of his comments about that area.

I'm on the other side of the country and have never been over there, nor had the desire to go to LA. Maybe somewhat my loss. I guess I've never been too concerned about living close to the "heavyweights". I imagine making a living from this kind of thing has to have an element of risk to it. 

The whole mentality of picking up jobs based on connections works well for those who peruse the opportunities. I have almost the exact opposite mindset. I seldom ask friends to do work for me because I don't want the kind of stuff that can happen if something goes wrong. I intentionally look outside of my circles most of the time. Acquaintances are different in that regard I suppose. For me it's a different way to see how some things work. Not for me though. From that perspective we might as well be discussing pearl diving.

Birds of a feather flock together. I might be in the wrong nest.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2018)

starise, it sounds like your friends are a lot less competent than mine.

I'm not the first person to say that you go as far as your friends let you - in any field. Life would suck if friends hadn't helped me, and hopefully v.v.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 1, 2018)

Y’all have friends??


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2018)

Sure. I keep how rotten a person I am hidden.


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## tmhuud (Sep 1, 2018)

You do a good job of that Nick.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 1, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Sure. I keep how rotten a person I am hidden.


That’s subjective.


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## starise (Sep 2, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> starise, it sounds like your friends are a lot less competent than mine.
> 
> I'm not the first person to say that you go as far as your friends let you - in any field. Life would suck if friends hadn't helped me, and hopefully



No not really. Most of them are very competent at what they do. I have just always kept business and friends separate. That approach isn't them, it's me. It seems many of you fall into business situations that have turned into friendships. That's great! This could go a lot deeper. I see it as acquaintances, friends and then FRIENDS.

If I hired someone who was a friend to do work for me and they mucked something up seriously I wouldn't sue them ever no matter what. I don't sue my friends. I would also be more hesitant to tell them if I didn't like something they did. First and foremost we are friends. They are my friend because I like them as a human being. I won't invite anything into the mix that might step on that. Just me.


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## JohnG (Sep 2, 2018)

Many people really only _make_ friends by having a task before them. Some can sit for hours and just talk, without any agenda or objective or problem to solve; some really don't do that very much, congregating mostly (or only) when there is an assignment of some kind to tackle.

I prefer as friends people who honour their commitments, work hard and do it (for the most part) pretty cheerfully. I guess everyone has entertaining friends who, nonetheless, are nowhere to be found when things are rough -- fair weather friends. I'm not saying I shun such people; it would be hard to do that since they form a lot of one's acquaintance. 

That said, I'm a lot more interested in pals who've demonstrated character through the way they work, the way they treat others from whom they can't "get" anything (parking attendants, waiters, people doing work for them, assistant engineers, and so on), and how they treat their families. People who are professedly religious or "spiritual" but who never devote time to helping the less-fortunate -- what's that about? Emperor's new clothes.

So, looked at that way, I work with friends all the time. Sometimes when one hires a big group, inevitably some will be strangers, but I look for places where a lot of reliable, hard-working people congregate. And it helps if they tell a joke now and then.

As far as Los Angeles, the place is famous for the shallow, the ephemeral, the fake, and the unreliable. But I've met tons here who are nothing like that. Of course, I've met good people everywhere I've lived or worked, but certainly if you pay a bit of attention, you can find them here.


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## AllanH (Sep 2, 2018)

Very interesting thoughts by @JohnG!

I tend to become friends with those who focus on what they can contribute to a project (or friendship, community, etc.) and rarely connect with those who primarily focus on what they get out of it.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 2, 2018)

Pardon the crudity John, but during my years spent doing advertising work, I learned to love people who treated people well regardless of their job or status, and to despise those who “kissed up and pissed down.” Sadly, I met too many of the latter.


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## starise (Sep 6, 2018)

I guess I see your point JohnG. I have lotsa guys I work with and we get on well. I guess I would call these guys my friends, at least I see them as friends but I don't know them well enough to have them over for a cookout and we don't have much time to mingle in the working world. These would be friends as opposed to FRIENDS. Most of the people I meet who are my friends through a common goal are doing tasks that are unrelated to income. This is just how it has worked for me. I'm not saying this is the law for anyone else. I am music lead at a church and you might imagine lots of people know who I am, however only maybe two or three of those people are close.I consider all of them friends just not as close.
It's a kind of strata in the way I view it I guess.

I have made friends with people who I had do work for me. I don't move in the kinds of circles or geographic locations as you guys and I admit to not really knowing much if anything about "networking". When I bought my last house everyone sitting around the table knew each other. The real estate agents, the title people, the inspectors, the lawyers. I see your world in a similar way. You know who you can depend on and you call them. You build a kind of ecosystem around that, and yes I'm sure friends come out of that, though not always. Close working relationships will also highlight differences. I can see where this could close the door to other opportunities as well if you only choose to use talent in a closed circle.

If I were in charge of a project with a timeline I wouldn't have time to think about thinking about potential help. I want people who are competent and who can deliver. If I'm a risk taker and I have more time I might line up some people who I'm not quite sure about. In fact this would seem like a good thing if I were interested to expand my potential. 

Almost without a doubt though, if someone couldn't meet expectations and couldn't offer a good reason for it other than they didn't feel like it at the time, they are likely gone from my list forever. If you made friends with them that makes firing them more difficult.

I have heard the saying a good parent can't be a good friend. Some parents attempt to be their kids friend and it almost always backfires. You won't be seen as a friend early on. Maybe later. I think the same thing applies to employers. I have worked in management. The always friendly anything goes manager always gets pooped on.
Not everyone is a pooper, but it only takes one or two. Give an inch, they will take a mile. You can earn respect and kudos for fairness. Some will like you and some won't. 

So I think there is probably something to be said for diversification. If you have a solid delivery from someone thousands of miles away, isn't that better than trying to put up with someone local who has excuses?


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## Ashermusic (Sep 6, 2018)

Apparently people no longer make a distinction between friends and acquaintances, possibly because of social media.

I make a clear distinction.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 7, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Apparently people no longer make a distinction between friends and acquaintances, possibly because of social media.
> 
> I make a clear distinction.



You're turning into a real crank, Jay!


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## Ashermusic (Sep 7, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You're turning into a real crank, Jay!



You kids get off my lawn!!!


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## NYC Composer (Sep 7, 2018)

I’m proud to call Jay Asher my acquaintance.


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## starise (Sep 11, 2018)

Well you might want to wait if contemplating the east coast. Hurricane is supposed to hit the Carolinas. The reason why I hesitate to live at the shore. I'm at about 550ft above sea level and hopefully too far away for it to impact me much.
Jay, nice to meet you. I'm a crank too.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 11, 2018)

starise said:


> Well you might want to wait if contemplating the east coast. Hurricane is supposed to hit the Carolinas. The reason why I hesitate to live at the shore. I'm at about 550ft above sea level and hopefully too far away for it to impact me much.
> Jay, nice to meet you. I'm a crank too.


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## CT (Sep 11, 2018)

starise said:


> Well you might want to wait if contemplating the east coast. Hurricane is supposed to hit the Carolinas. The reason why I hesitate to live at the shore. I'm at about 550ft above sea level and hopefully too far away for it to impact me much.
> Jay, nice to meet you. I'm a crank too.



The East Coast is great! Just stay relatively inland, and above a certain latitude, and these things will almost never bother you.


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## Kyle Preston (Sep 11, 2018)

starise said:


> The reason why I hesitate to live at the shore



But it’s so beautiful near the shore. God I miss Boston right now.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 11, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> God I miss Boston right now.



Me too, and I have lived in LA since '72.


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2018)

What I like about Boston and Philly is the Public Transportation efficiency.
You can get anywhere 24/7 reliably. Best PT in the country.
You can a ton of money not having to park everywhere.


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## starise (Sep 13, 2018)

I was in Boston last year as part of a vacay. Seen Martha's Vinyard. It was a nice time. The only problem I ran into was when we were in the Cheers bar. I apparently forgot to sign off on my meal. I was about a half block away and a bouncer came after me running. Nice area though. If I had to live in a city I think I could have acclimated there very well.


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## tabulius (Sep 13, 2018)

chillbot said:


> I thought this thread was going to be a bit different about *leaving* LA but it has evolved into yet another "why live in LA" thread. Oh well, I'm not complaining. But this has been hashed over way more than a dozen times in so many different ways. So many threads...
> 
> 
> Every single time I hear "if you do trailers/libraries/whatever it doesn't matter where you live" I have to roll my eyes. Just keep believing that.



I live in Finland and my main income is from Hollywood trailers. Keep those eyes rolling!


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## Dear Villain (Sep 14, 2018)

tabulius said:


> I live in Finland and my main income is from Hollywood trailers. Keep those eyes rolling!



The question is, what is your main income? If you're pulling in a six figure income doing Hollywood trailers in Finland, a pat on the back is definitely in order. However, for many musicians, $10,000 a year could be a "main income" and that would not be a lie to state you earn your main income from music, even though others might say you're being misleading.


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## tabulius (Sep 16, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> The question is, what is your main income? If you're pulling in a six figure income doing Hollywood trailers in Finland, a pat on the back is definitely in order. However, for many musicians, $10,000 a year could be a "main income" and that would not be a lie to state you earn your main income from music, even though others might say you're being misleading.



I don't need a six figure income to pay my mortgage and live comfortably here in Finland. Daycare is cheaper, education is free, living is cheaper than in LA.

I don't know why you seem so butt hurt about this but the trailer work is the main field I'm making a living at the moment. And I know there are bunch of other composers around Europe who are doing this as well. Those trailer companies have artists and composers around the globe. Pusher Music (LA) is handling my trailer licensing and I don't have to live in LA personally. Specially the Really Slow Motion I believe has a wide range of composers living around the Europe. We do have the internet you know.

In the past I have been thinking the possibility of living in LA, but now with two-year-old daughter, family and the mortgage - things are more complex than before


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## Dear Villain (Sep 17, 2018)

tabulius said:


> I don't need a six figure income to pay my mortgage and live comfortably here in Finland. Daycare is cheaper, education is free, living is cheaper than in LA.
> 
> I don't know why you seem so butt hurt about this but the trailer work is the main field I'm making a living at the moment.



Who's "butt hurt"? Overreact much?


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## J-M (Sep 17, 2018)

tabulius said:


> I live in Finland and my main income is from Hollywood trailers. Keep those eyes rolling!



Gives me hope... :D


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## tabulius (Sep 17, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Who's "butt hurt"? Overreact much?



I'm glad you are not. Take care and let's make some tunes!


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## Greg (Sep 18, 2018)

Making a living from trailers living over seas shouldn't be a shock to anyone, I know plenty of folks that do it. In my experience working on trailers, being in LA has been 95% pointless. That industry moves WAY too fast to be able to arrange an in person meeting. Obviously the networking can really help you out but you're probably better off focusing that time on your music quality & quantity anyway.


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## chillbot (Sep 18, 2018)

tabulius said:


> I live in Finland and my main income is from Hollywood trailers. Keep those eyes rolling!


Sincere congrats. Certainly I wasn't saying you can't do it, or that nobody does it, or that it's not possibly possible.

But being in LA gives you an enormous edge on the field. In an enormously difficult field.


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## givemenoughrope (Sep 18, 2018)

tabulius said:


> I don't need a six figure income to pay my mortgage and live comfortably here in Finland. Daycare is cheaper, education is free, living is cheaper than in LA.
> 
> I don't know why you seem so butt hurt about this but the trailer work is the main field I'm making a living at the moment. And I know there are bunch of other composers around Europe who are doing this as well. Those trailer companies have artists and composers around the globe. Pusher Music (LA) is handling my trailer licensing and I don't have to live in LA personally. Specially the Really Slow Motion I believe has a wide range of composers living around the Europe. We do have the internet you know.
> 
> In the past I have been thinking the possibility of living in LA, but now with two-year-old daughter, family and the mortgage - things are more complex than before



No one is “butt hurt” (christ) over your trailer work. We’re jealous bc you won the life lottery by being born in Finland.


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## chillbot (Sep 18, 2018)

You guys are being harsh, ease up. Let's keep it simple. My man tabulius is getting paid to write music. Life is good. Living the/our dream.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 19, 2018)

chillbot said:


> You guys are being harsh, ease up. Let's keep it simple. My man tabulius is getting paid to write music. Life is good. Living the/our dream.


:::NYC Composer presses imaginary like button:::


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## givemenoughrope (Sep 19, 2018)

I was just teasing on the "butt hurt" (barf) thing. Every time I leave the LA bubble I remind myself that although I'll probably always sort of live here I also need to live elsewhere for sanity's sake. And hey, Morricone is the best media composer of all time and he's barely left the Trastevere. So more power to you, tabulius. rock on!


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## starise (Sep 20, 2018)

No big jobs in Finland huh? They must have television over there.


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