# Piano sketch, where to start? (aka plenty of ideas but still stuck)



## DANIELE (Jan 28, 2019)

There is a question that is bothering me for sometime. Usually I'm in front of the blank arranger of my DAW (Reaper) with my template, I've a bunch of ideas like:

1) Do an epic track;
2) Redo an old piece of mine using new techniques I learned in the meantime;
3) Do a more orchestral track, maybe a Star Wars-ish one or something;
4) And so on....

I am a hobbyist composer for those who do not know it. I have also to do a work for a short movie but I'd like to try some new things on a generic track before.

I keep studying, doing video courses, reading, writing etc...but I often feel stuck even if I know plenty of techniques to break the blank page syndrome.
Maybe because I work 8-9 hours per day and in the evening or in the weekend I'm so tired I can't do something good.
So to avoid thinking at my emptyness I keep studying or updating my template or do something else, in a few words I'm procrastinating even if I feel that my will is strong...
Maybe I am a bit full and I have to put my head far from music for sometime (even though I'm attracted to it all the time), I don't know...
I feel like I'm missing something but I don't understand what it is!

About the piano sketch...let's say that I'm building a track with a slow start (maybe a pedal tone, maybe some sus chord with synth pads) with a far ostinato behind it, then I want a build up to the theme of the track and maybe a cool down after it transitioning in a more romantic moment.

How I sketch a pedal tone with an ostinato? On piano it sounds horrible and doesn't give the idea. Do I have to begin with sketching and orchestrating only the main parts and straight composing the other parts? But doing like this make me loose the track form.
Maybe my problem is only the few time I have for I'm looking a way to do some things faster and better.

I'm trying to build a method, a good workflow for years but I'm always hit a wall or something. Sometime I'm thinking to leave everything behind but later I understand I can't!
I need some advice from you.

Thank you.


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## wilifordmusic (Jan 29, 2019)

If you want to stick with piano so you don't "colour" your orchestration development, just create 3 or 4 separate piano tracks. One for rhythmic, one for bass, one for harmony, one for melody.
Otherwise, this scenario was what products like Albion, Ark etc... were designed for. Use WW, Brass, String and Perc longs and shorts as separate tracks. That gives you an 8 stave sketch score.


don't give up, Steve


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## ed buller (Jan 29, 2019)

A piano sketch really might not be the right way to go. But if you do use it you really only need it as a road map. Don't struggle with trying to make it sound good if the orchestral version is your ultimate goal.

the only Caveat to that is if your piece begins of sounding pianistic. Then it really is worthwhile getting it right:

original : 

orchestral versionhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1L93HeQtZ8 : 

But if it is a Sketch then you should just concern yourself with the basic outline. 

so _"1) Do an epic track;"_

Outline the structure. Nail the key and any Key Changes. Nail the rhythms and Subdivisions. Multiple tracks me be worthwhile but maybe not. It really depends on weather you can think ahead to making decisions about harmony later. For instance on a piano track your limited to Octave spread. Whereas your final version might well have a section where your spread across the full orchestral range !

"3) _Do a more orchestral track, maybe a Star Wars-ish one or something"_

Well...if this is something like ' The Imperial March" then again your piano sketch needs to be pretty detailed as this piece is almost pianistc. It's very straightforward ....however if your doing the "Asteroid Chase " or something like " arrival at the death star"




the music is much more amorphic and textural. So your just "mapping out" things like the shifts in Harmony. The descending bass, the various key changes as the motif descends. The overall shape. Basically what happens where....knowing this will sound pants until you switch to your full version. BUT it will help you make decisions....perhaps.......'Piano Maps" are usually done by media composers just to check timings and so forth against picture....John Williams would have just sketched out this cue :



his sketches are sooo detailed. everything you need.

best

ed


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## DANIELE (Jan 29, 2019)

Thank you Steve and Ed.

I'm trying to follow some rules to achieve better results than before. One of this is "let the piano sketch sounds good to have the orchestration sounds good".

I'm already using 4-5 tracks with the piano for sketching but I'm not getting results good enough. This is maybe because I have to many freedom with them and, since I'm not a professionist, I overlap to many things that results in a messy sound with orchestra. By using only one track maybe I'm a bit forced to pay more attention on overlapping and I could think later about doubling in octaves or something like that.

I'd like to loose as less time as possible in sketching because I fear is too dispersive. If I use some ensemble patches like Steve suggests (a good suggestion indeed) I fear to loose to many time in sketching and maybe loose some of the surprise and impact of the orchestrating stage.

Actually I couldn't do detailed sketching like John Williams did.

I'm in a conflict, I don't know if loosing a big amount of time on sketching worth it in my condition (remember I have a very little time and I work all the day long).

So maybe doing a sort of draft, a skeleton of the track is a good way of thinking, so I could write down the melody, the harmony, the bass and maybe some basic idea of more textural parts and end the work while I'm orchestrating it. But at the same time I don't want to loose some precious details that maybe fly away while I'm working on orchestration.

Maybe I could try to "sing" my ideas on a dedicated track with my voice, then sketching them and finally orchestrating them.

It is from 18 years that I'm composing for hobby and I think 4-5 years that I'm seriously studying theory in my free time but it is very difficult to find the right way to grow and the steps I see in front of me are bigger and bigger, I'm often in a position where I feel that I'm not growing, where I keep studying and studying and my head keep to do the same things again and again...

I'd like to know if I'm doing something wrong, this is why I'm trying to understand where I could became better and how to do it.


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## ed buller (Jan 29, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> So maybe doing a sort of draft, a skeleton of the track is a good way of thinking, so I could write down the melody, the harmony, the bass and maybe some basic idea of more textural parts and end the work while I'm orchestrating it. But at the same time I don't want to loose some precious details that maybe fly away while I'm working on orchestration.
> .



yeah , do this. Basic outline...make sure you do the harmonizing, and voice leading .Structure. Dynamics, Melodies , Harmony....on the piano. Then Full orchestra. Set Some goals. Say 2 hours only on the piano. No More than 2 mins of music. Then give yourself a day on the Orchestration. Then do another.......that's how you'll get better....doing lot's of em. Pick headings. Drama, Action, Magical, From the Far East, Romantic, Space....etc. Try using different scales and chords.


Also make sure your Orchestration Chops are up to speed. Good orchestration is NOT finding who will play my ideas......Good orchestration ADDS ideas !

if you need a refresher. I can't recommend these highly enough:

https://scoreclub.net/course/orchestrating-the-line/


best

ed


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## DANIELE (Jan 29, 2019)

ed buller said:


> yeah , do this. Basic outline...make sure you do the harmonizing, and voice leading .Structure. Dynamics, Melodies , Harmony....on the piano. Then Full orchestra. Set Some goals. Say 2 hours only on the piano. No More than 2 mins of music. Then give yourself a day on the Orchestration. Then do another.......that's how you'll get better....doing lot's of em. Pick headings. Drama, Action, Magical, From the Far East, Romantic, Space....etc. Try using different scales and chords.
> 
> 
> Also make sure your Orchestration Chops are up to speed. Good orchestration is NOT finding who will play my ideas......Good orchestration ADDS ideas !
> ...



Thank you Ed.

I know Alain courses, I have all of them, I watched them all taking notes. Now I'm watching again the basic one. I hope that some day all this work will came out in some way.


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## wilifordmusic (Jan 29, 2019)

Try a combination of the different methods "simplified".
Do your harmony with piano. Good voice leading is universal.
Use a short artic, whether it be strings, brass or percs to start your rhythmic motor.
Then use an instrument that pleases you for melody.
That's three things going on that will allow you to develop just about any idea. Any one of these elements can easily be omitted if it isn't appropriate musically. Then you can develop your composition without having to commit to anything until you are happy with the structure.
Once you get used to the idea of translating your ideas to the actual orchestration you will be able to hear "see" what is necessary to realize the actual piece.
If things are too messy with three ideas going on, then you do need to look at why it is messy. It's okay to hard quantize your sketch, you're going to use it as your roadmap and not the performance.
Performance dynamics and tempos/changes can happen later unless you're going commando and not using a click. Then it's a little more complicated and an opportunity to really learn your daw.

All these things will come easier with practice.


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## DANIELE (Jan 30, 2019)

wilifordmusic said:


> Try a combination of the different methods "simplified".
> Do your harmony with piano. Good voice leading is universal.
> Use a short artic, whether it be strings, brass or percs to start your rhythmic motor.
> Then use an instrument that pleases you for melody.
> ...



Thank you for the suggestion. So you are basically telling me that I should have 3 tracks 1 for the melody, 1 for the rhythmic pattern and 1 for the harmony, am I right? Maybe I could have a forth one for the countermelody...

And I could use this instruments:

1) Melody: sustain strings
2) Harmony: piano
3) Rhytmic pattern: spiccato or staccato strings

Right?

What about textures (runs etc...), should I add them while I'm orchestrating?


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## wilifordmusic (Jan 30, 2019)

I wouldn't "tell" anyone to do anything. But yes, the idea is to get your ideas down quickly and in a concise manner without getting bogged down in the details. 
If you don't focus on the original idea, all the optional stuff can dilute or even dissolve your original idea.
If a countermelody comes to you quickly, then by all means add it in when it's necessary. But does your countermelody determine your harmony or vice versa. This can cause doubt before you even have line 2 of your sketch done.
If a texture or pattern is integral to the piece (i.e. play a preset and a whole piece springs to mind)
then by all means keep it.
Sometimes the ideas spring from a rhythmic pattern. Sometimes a melody jumps into your head.
The idea can come from anywhere, so the process can vary from song to song.

Ornamentation, orchestration and structural development are all building blocks of western music but you don't want them to become stumbling blocks. Keep moving.

The important thing to remember is that if you have a melody, you probably need other stuff.
If you have a harmony, you may need a melody but you will need some sort of rhythmic movement.
It may come from actual "changes" or from changes of instrumentation ala Spitfire EVOs or percs.
And of course you can write for just drums and get all tribal.

Leave all the details for when the bigger picture is clear. You don't paint a house and move the furniture in when it's still just framed up with no walls. 
Why would you do that with a piece of music?


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## TimCox (Jan 30, 2019)

ed buller said:


> John Williams would have just sketched out this cue :
> 
> 
> 
> his sketches are sooo detailed. everything you need.


I've seen this a bunch. Yet I still get blown away every time.


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## DANIELE (Jan 30, 2019)

wilifordmusic said:


> I wouldn't "tell" anyone to do anything. But yes, the idea is to get your ideas down quickly and in a concise manner without getting bogged down in the details.
> If you don't focus on the original idea, all the optional stuff can dilute or even dissolve your original idea.
> If a countermelody comes to you quickly, then by all means add it in when it's necessary. But does your countermelody determine your harmony or vice versa. This can cause doubt before you even have line 2 of your sketch done.
> If a texture or pattern is integral to the piece (i.e. play a preset and a whole piece springs to mind)
> ...



Thank you so much to everyone, your advices are very useful to me.

If you have some other advices I'm here!


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## TimCox (Jan 30, 2019)

Firstly, unless your workflow is so horrendously bad that you _have_ to find a better one, I'd recommend simply focusing on streamlining the way you work now. That's really going to be your best bet to becoming a faster composer. 

Secondly, don't fidget with your template all the time. Get something established and work from that.

Third(ly?), write every day. Even if you're not inspired. It's essential to becoming "fast" at composition. Not every idea is going to be a winner (most probably aren't) but it's all practice anyway. You'll log some interesting content in your head and your brain will refine it later. The point of order here is that you need to be able to spew out music when you're called to. It might sound barbaric but not every single scene of a film has great music, underscore is often simple and to the point and would never be played in a concert hall. Even in Star Wars.


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## DANIELE (Jan 31, 2019)

TimCox said:


> Firstly, unless your workflow is so horrendously bad that you _have_ to find a better one, I'd recommend simply focusing on streamlining the way you work now. That's really going to be your best bet to becoming a faster composer.
> 
> Secondly, don't fidget with your template all the time. Get something established and work from that.
> 
> Third(ly?), write every day. Even if you're not inspired. It's essential to becoming "fast" at composition. Not every idea is going to be a winner (most probably aren't) but it's all practice anyway. You'll log some interesting content in your head and your brain will refine it later. The point of order here is that you need to be able to spew out music when you're called to. It might sound barbaric but not every single scene of a film has great music, underscore is often simple and to the point and would never be played in a concert hall. Even in Star Wars.



This is a good advice. I'm often very tired when I came back from work but I'll try to do my best to write every day. I have to do some planning to do it.

My "problem" is that having a little time to do music I'd like to use it for the best result possible, but I understand that I can't.


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## TimCox (Jan 31, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> This is a good advice. I'm often very tired when I came back from work but I'll try to do my best to write every day. I have to do some planning to do it.
> 
> My "problem" is that having a little time to do music I'd like to use it for the best result possible, but I understand that I can't.


Yeah, it's harder trying to write when your brain's already been working all day. I feel for you there for sure. I'm fortunate in that I start work at 11AM so my mornings are wide open to music. I think getting into a solid routine for writing will open it up a lot.


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## DANIELE (Jan 31, 2019)

TimCox said:


> Yeah, it's harder trying to write when your brain's already been working all day. I feel for you there for sure. I'm fortunate in that I start work at 11AM so my mornings are wide open to music. I think getting into a solid routine for writing will open it up a lot.



Ah lucky you, I work from 8 AM till 7 PM...


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## LamaRose (Jan 31, 2019)

Mornings are for haiku, scripts, and optimism. Afternoons for walks and reflection. Evenings for abstraction, deflection, depression and happy accidental polyphonic inspirations. When my mind is numb and dumb from thoughts, music rolls in like clockwork waves.


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