# 960 IR library requests?



## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 7, 2006)

Suppose I go ahead and do an IR library of the Lex 960, what would you like to see to be included, besides all (or most) presets in true-stereo and in mono-to-stereo? (I will not be considering surround).

I am thinking about adding ER-only and tail-only versions for the chambers and halls, for instance.

Is there anyway any interest in such a library? :wink:


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## Patrick de Caumette (Oct 7, 2006)

I'd be interested in just about anything that you would come up with Peter.
Love the TC impulses...


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## José Herring (Oct 7, 2006)

I've been interested in this for a long time. I'm interested in the plate verbs.

Jose


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## Synesthesia (Oct 7, 2006)

Hi Peter - 

I'll be first in line! 

The separated ER and Tails would be very very useful indeed. 

One of the current problems I am having is reconciling the mess of ER that occurs when you mix up all the libs and especially making sense of trying to collapse the VSL soundstage ERs while then regenerating some fresh ERs once they are panned into position!

It doesnt help that I am reading Bruce Swediens book and digging his theory about transients and ERs being the life and meaning of the sound..

So - bring it on dude!

Cheers

Paul


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## Aaron Sapp (Oct 7, 2006)

Keep doing what you're doing Peter. Your impulses are some of the smoothest I've heard.


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## Ed (Oct 8, 2006)

NATIVE GIGAPULSE :D

I have no idea how to make GigaPulse work with my own impulses. Someone posted an IR of Todd AO a while ago and it was only one wave file so you'd think that would be simple to load into it, but even that sounded HORRENDOUS. 

Personally though, I'd like not just impulses of a high end reverb although that would be great, I'd like something like tweaked impulses specifically for GigaPulse (or other software reverbs you are making it for) of the hardware reverb in question. As most of us know, in general film scores are recorded on a scoring stage with a high end reverb put on afterwards. I want to get that sound, and while I dont know if anyone would want to do this, I'd sure like to see someone try and help make mixing to get this sound as easy as possible. To sample a high end reverb would just be your raw materials to start with. Maybe Im just dreaming.


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## synergy543 (Oct 8, 2006)

Ed, to use that Todd AO impulse with Kontakt, all you do is drag and drop it onto the convolution window. Nothing more. I know you don't have K2, but its something to think about.

Peter, I know you said you weren't interested in 960 surround impulses but just in case you change your mind again , 960 surround impulses would be incredible!


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## Ed (Oct 8, 2006)

synergy, oh I can import one wave file fine into GigaPulse. Been using that for special effects. But the point with the Todd AO one is it sounds like turd. I know that isnt right because I heard a track of his where he said he used it and it sounded nothing like what I was hearing.


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## choc0thrax (Oct 8, 2006)

synergy543 @ Sun Oct 08 said:


> Ed, to use that Todd AO impulse with Kontakt, all you do is drag and drop it onto the convolution window. Nothing more. I know you don't have K2, but its something to think about.
> 
> Peter, I know you said you weren't interested in 960 surround impulses but just in case you change your mind again , 960 surround impulses would be incredible!



Wow, I thought you were lying but it works! I just dragged in Todd AO into K2. Sounds great.


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## José Herring (Oct 8, 2006)

anybody have a link to the impulse?


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## synergy543 (Oct 8, 2006)

Hi Jose,
Here's the thread with SvK's convolution link they were talking about:

http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4598

direct link (file is called "ScoringStages):
http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en (http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/File ... US&amp;lang=en)


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## José Herring (Oct 8, 2006)

Merci Beaucoup!!!


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## Bo Clausen (Oct 9, 2006)

Hey Peter

I'll surely be very interested in 960 true stereo IR library. 

I use the TC IRs all the time.

Best Regards
Bo


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## SvK (Oct 9, 2006)

THE BEST WAY TO CREATE AN IMPULSE RESPONSE:


This technique ONLY works if your staying in the digital domain......

eg: IRing a Lexi 960 or similar that is hooked up over spdif / etc... or (WAVES, Altiverb libraries  This Technique WILL NOT yield results in the analog domain....for that you will have to deconvolve and sweep.

1) Record some silent audio.......(in other words nothing) 

2) Open "nothing recording" in sample editor.....silence the whole thing.

3) With the pencil-tool draw 1 spike (it has to be just one) 

4) Now set-up a digital-reverb on a buss in Logic (set to 100% wet)

5) Place "spike" audio on an audio track 

6) Route that tracks output to the Reverb buss.

7) Bounce in real-time the reverberated spike

8) Open the reverberated spike in the sample-editor and chop the the front and rear


YOU ARE DONE 

You now created a perfect 100% impulse-response....completed perfectly cloned....no deconvolution needed...it's done!

I work for a major video-game company.........and our Audio-Programmer (a genius) taught me this......(He has a doctorate in synhesis)

You see the sine sweeping is neccessary only when IRing in the analog world .....The result of deconvolution is actually a spike..

So the other week I was at a friends place....He has altiverb and IR1 from waves....Their libraries have fantastic famous drum rooms / concert-halls etc......

I spiked it all 

I'm not kidding...If you don't believe me ( I was-a non-believer myself....) Just research it ...........It's the best kept secret  For years I was friggin sine-sweeping digitally hooked-up reverbs....takes forever and the result is not as good as the spike technique....

The Spike technique is 100% acurate..

Go have fun 

Cheers.

SvK


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## José Herring (Oct 9, 2006)

Hey! Sounds promising. I'll have to do that the next time I'm in a big studio. Or I may just rent a studio just to do that.

Thanks.

Jose


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 10, 2006)

SvK @ Tue Oct 10 said:


> THE BEST WAY TO CREATE AN IMPULSE RESPONSE: SvK



Sorry Steve, but I do not agree with you at all, having done some serious IR-work myself...

I tried the spike method for my Samplicity T600 library and the results were very poor, bad frequency spectrum reproduction, lots of noise (low S/N ratio) and audibly poorer results when compared to the real Sys 6000... 

Then I used 30 second sweeps, for Left, Right (for true-stereo) and Center input (for mono-to-stereo), applied a lot of DC and low band correction and the results were VERY good. S/N ratio's were in the range of -90 to -13òŠ   G(ÆŠ   G(ÇŠ   G(ÈŠ   G(ÉŠ   G(ÊŠ   G(ËŠ   G(ÌŠ   G(ÍŠ   G(ÎŠ   G(ÏŠ   G(ÐŠ   G(ÑŠ   G(ÒŠ   G(ÓŠ   G(ÔŠ   G(ÕŠ   G(ÖŠ   G(×Š   G(ØŠ   G(ÙŠ   G(ÚŠ   G(ÛŠ   G(ÜŠ   G(ÝŠ   G(ÞŠ   G(ßŠ   G(àŠ   G(áŠ   G(âŠ   G(ãŠ   G(äŠ   G(åŠ   G(æŠ   G(çŠ   G(èŠ   G(éŠ   G(êŠ   G(ëŠ   G(ìŠ   G(íŠ   G(îŠ   G(ïŠ   G(ðŠ   G(ñŠ   G(òŠ   G(óŠ   G(ôŠ   G(õŠ   G(öŠ   G(÷Š   G(øŠ   G(ùŠ   G(úŠ   G(ûŠ   G(üŠ   G(ýŠ   G(þŠ   G(ÿŠ   G) Š   G)Š   G)Š   G)Š   G)Š   G)Š   G)Š   G)Š   G)Š   G)	Š   G)
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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2006)

I have to sign Peters post.

The method of using sine waves, at least I have the feeling, is much more full and rich.

Altiverb was done this way, whereas I think the Waves IR1 stuff was still done with peaks or the "impulse-pistol". Also a lot of free available IRs doesn't sound that good like AV.

On the other hand it is logic, because if you do a sine wave and run it through a room you will get back much more info rather than just a signal from a single loud "click".

Just another 1,99 cents


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 10, 2006)

Hi Alex, thanks 

Waves also uses the sweep method, I read several articles on their sessions on www.Acoustics.net (see The Science, Whitepapers).


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2006)

Peter Roos @ Tue Oct 10 said:


> Waves also uses the sweep method, I read several articles on their sessions on www.Acoustics.net (see The Science, Whitepapers).



Well, then it's the crappy engine what makes the IR's sound dull :mrgreen:


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## redleicester (Oct 10, 2006)

960 requests?

Erm....
...
..
.
Can I borrow it when you've finished with it?! :lol:


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 10, 2006)

Hello Red :wink: 

You will first have to play with the Sys6000 IR's that are currently on their way to you...

Gentlemen, the game is on, please expect some hopefully excellent Lex IR's in the upcoming Samplicity L96 library  

Cheers,


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## Bo Clausen (Oct 10, 2006)

This is great news Peter  

I'll look forward to the release - you can be sure I'll order when it's ready.

Good Impulsing

Bo


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## SvK (Oct 10, 2006)

Peter,

M my article was not clear enough......


I'll try again.....


If you hook up a Lexi 960 to your system using it's analog in's and out's a digital-spike WILL NOT work.

If you hook the Lexi 960 up using it's digital in and out's a spike will yield 100% accuracy. No deconvolving needed.

This is a fact.


The other thing is when I say spike .....that DOES NOT mean any old short sound or starter pistol.

It means an actual digital spike......(exactly one sample in length)

SvK


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## Pando (Oct 10, 2006)

SvK, what amplitude should the one sample spike be at? 100%?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 10, 2006)

SvK @ Tue Oct 10 said:


> Peter,
> 
> M my article was not clear enough......
> 
> ...



Hey Steve,

Your post was absolutely clear! I just don't agree at all (and I know my stuff  )

I extensively investigated both methods with a System 6000 and the difference is SOO big. Really, read some background papers on the theories and especially what the effect is of using 30 seconds of input, instead of 1/48th of a second (hint hint hint: S/N ratio and avoiding non-linearities)

100% accuracy: really no way! LOL

:smile:


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## andreas (Oct 10, 2006)

I'm very much interested in a 960 library! Would buy it in a heartbeat. I have the free 960 samples from noisevault, but they are less than stellar. 

Separate ER samples are a very good idea. 

It would also be great if you could collect some really good tweaked presets from various users and sample those. The presets on the 960 are really good starting points, but often need a bit of tweaking to be really useful. I have access to some really nice Hall programs that I could share. I'd be very interested in hearing some good useful plate programs, too.

I also like the idea of being able to purchase individual impulses, or at least smaller sets, like you mentioned in another thread. That would be very useful.

Hope you can make this library happen. The world really needs a high-quality set of 960 samples!
Thanks!

-andreas-


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## SvK (Oct 10, 2006)

Peter.....

Hey ..I'm really not trying to be a know-it all, but must stand by my post...


I work for a major video-game company.......We pay our audio-programmers....top dollar..(all they do all day is write plug-ins and audio code for the games........they are among the brightest in the industry)
OUr audio-programmer...WRITES convolution plug-in's for our games...

He has a doctorate PHD in synthesis.....

I've done extensive tests as well....and I'm standing by what Dr. X taught me.
Peter, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

SvK


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## synergy543 (Oct 10, 2006)

Peter Roos @ Tue Oct 10 said:


> Gentlemen, the game is on, please expect some hopefully excellent Lex IR's in the upcoming Samplicity L96 library
> 
> Cheers,



YES! :!:

Great to hear your taking the challenge!


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## andreas (Oct 10, 2006)

SvK @ Tue Oct 10 said:


> Peter.....
> 
> Hey ..I'm really not trying to be a know-it all, but must stand by my post...
> 
> ...



Hi SvK,

I'm sure your Dr. X knows his business. I'm just wondering if you yourself have had a chance to do an A/B comparison of samples from the same unit, using both a spike and a sweep? I've never done tests myself, so I òŠm   G?IŠm   G?JŠm   G?KŠm   G?LŠm   G?MŠm   G?NŠm   G?OŠm   G?PŠm   G?QŠm   G?RŠm   G?SŠm   G?TŠm   G?UŠn   G?VŠn   G?WŠn   G?XŠn   G?YŠn   G?ZŠn   G?[Šn   G?\Šn   G?]Šn   G?^Šn   G?_Šn   G?`Šn   G?aŠn   G?bŠn   G?cŠn   G?dŠn   G?eŠn   G?fŠn   G?gŠn   G?hŠn   G?iŠn   G?jŠn   G?kŠn   G?lŠn   G?mŠn   G?nŠn   G?oŠn   G?pŠn   G?qŠn   G?rŠn   G?sŠn   G?tŠn   G?uŠo   G?vŠo   G?wŠo   G?xŠo   G?yŠo   G?zŠo   G?{Šo   G?|Šo   G?}Šo   G?~Šo   G?Šp   G?€Šp   G?Šp   G?‚Šp   G?ƒŠp   G?„Šp   G?…Šp   G?†


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 10, 2006)

SvK @ Wed Oct 11 said:


> andreas @ Tue Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > SvK @ Tue Oct 10 said:
> ...



And what about cleaning up the IR? Fading out when it reaches noise, removing noise before the first ER and correcting for DC and low-freq noise? Don't forget that you are multiplying every data sample from your music with this IR, so you don't want to mess it up with unwanted stuff... Believe me, full wet output from a digital unit is not as clean as you think, especially when using spikes.

I see that you don't get my point that I say spike is a VALID method, but that sweeping is FAR more superior. Maybe I just set higher standards than you. And I did record 580 spikes from the System 6000, so I "tried" the method.

Ok, I end my part of the discussion, because I know I am not wrong (no more uppercases). I spent 4 weeks recording and editing IR's, read a lot of scientific papers on this (I have a doctoral degree in data analysis and perception research) so I see no point in convincing you otherwise.

I will probably post a spiked and a sweeped IR from the TCE 6000 here for you to compare later.

Cheers, take care,


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## SvK (Oct 11, 2006)

Peter,

Of course, I trim, remove DC off-set, and Fade.

This debate is going nowhere. 

Haver a good one.

SvK


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## andreas (Oct 11, 2006)

Peter,

Why do you get a DC offset when you make impulses? Is it as a result or an anomaly of the process (sweeping or spiking), or is it a problem caused by something else in your chain?

I'm interested in learning more about the process, and just wondering if you always get DC offset when doing impulses. I would have assumed that a DC offset would be the result of some grounding/power issue in your setup, no?

Also, if you'd be willing to post a spiked and a sweeped impulse for comparison like you mentioned, I'd be very interested in seeing/hearing that.

thanks,

-andreas-


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Andreas, 

Yes I will surely post two comparison IR's soon, one spiked, one sweeped to illustrate the dramatic difference. Same setup, same recording pass (my input file has L, R, and C spikes and sweeps). I have been too busy lately (I also did extensive recordings with the lex 960)).

DC-offset is actually part of the significant low-band noise, which is typically contained in both spiked IR's and deconvoluted sweep IR's. This can cause a very substantial amount of "N" as in "S/N" in IR's. After drastic linear phase cuts below 20-30 Hz, the S/N can be improved a lot. Another, but less obtrusive type of noise (in sweeped IR's) is super sonic aliasing (can be cleaned as well).

Audible aliasing is more problematic, as it can be hardly removed. It is typically caused by modulation effects and can really spoil the reverb tails from the IR's. When making IR's from digital reverbs, one should always first turn off modulation effects (like spin and wander in the lex 960).

IR's can give you an emulation, or approximation, of a digital reverb, but you cannot get a 100% "clone", especially when subtle modulations and chorusing is used for the reverb tails.

Laterz,


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## RickD (Oct 21, 2006)

Peter Roos @ Sat Oct 07 said:


> Suppose I go ahead and do an IR library of the Lex 960, what would you like to see to be included, besides all (or most) presets in true-stereo and in mono-to-stereo? (I will not be considering surround).
> 
> I am thinking about adding ER-only and tail-only versions for the chambers and halls, for instance.
> 
> Is there anyway any interest in such a library? :wink:



Yes, I am interested, also would like to see someone come up with a way to chorus the tail, and make it sound like the real deal. I know, I'm asking too much.  I guess I'm going to have to break down and buy a 480L. :lol:

Oh, this is for gigapulse? My bad! I'm and Altiverb user.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 21, 2006)

This will be a multi-format DVD, with Wave, Aiff and Altiverb (Sd2) files. I'm not sure if there will be enough room to add the files in 32 bit as well (this seems to be even better, according to someone as SoS Magazine, whereas it does not involve more CPU).

I agree it would be great if plugin developers could think of a way to add a subtle chorus to the tail only (seems difficult to me, given how the processing works).

Maybe it IS possible to use ER and tails in different plugin instances and add a subtle chorus to the tail plugin.


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2006)

I don't get it. If the 960 by default choruses the tail of it's reverb wouldn't the IR pick up the chorus as well?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 22, 2006)

No, well actually yes, but it results in noise artifacts, because time variant (non linear) effects cannot be captured in the deconvolution process. The result is often a down sweep of a high pitched aliasing sound in the reverb tail (which I encountered with the TC 6000), or other unwanted modulations in the IR. 

The only good approach is to turn off modulation parameters (TC 6000) or spin and wander (Lex 960). Sometimes the aliasing occurs only at the very end of the tail, in which case one might fade out the IR a bit earlier.

In my TC6000 lib I replaced a few sweeped IRs with spiked IRs, because I did not record everything with modulation turned off, but these IR's have a higher SNR and less clarity than sweeped IR's. Also, spiking cannot capture the modulation effects either. 

I will check my TC6000 spikes later for presets with high modulation effects (which I rejected) to see how they look and sound. I will post a few examples here, like I promised earlier this week.


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