# Can clarinets play like this?



## erica-grace (Apr 4, 2019)

And would that be tonging?

If it is tonging, do I do a basic notation:

View attachment EW Hollywood ORCH ARTICULATIONS.pdf


or some other notation? Do I need staccato dots?

Thanks!


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## BenG (Apr 4, 2019)

This would be probably the limit of what a professional clarinetist can play. You can put staccato dots in but at this speed everything will be staccato by default. Also, this figure would not be sustainable for too long (breath/fatigue) and would need to be traded off between two clarinets.

- Tonging is the re-articulation of each note beginning with the tongue
- Staccato is similar but has a shorter length as well as a more aggressive attack.


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## Lassi Tani (Apr 4, 2019)

Yes that should be doable for clarinets, and the clarinetist would do that by tonguing. As BenG said you don't need put staccato dots in it.

Here's similar using tonguing.


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## tonaliszt (Apr 4, 2019)

I would not write repeated notes that fast for clarinets. I would suggest creating 2 lines to split among the 2 players. They will be able to play it easier and will be happier.


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## HeliaVox (Apr 4, 2019)

Or instead of breaking it up rhymically like in the above example, have one seat play the first two groupings and the second seat play the second two groupings. Similar to what Prokofiev does in the Classical Symphony 4th movement, rehearsal mark 4.


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## BenG (Apr 4, 2019)

HeliaVox said:


> Or instead of breaking it up rhymically like in the above example, have one seat play the first two groupings and the second seat play the second two groupings. Similar to what Prokofiev does in the Classical Symphony 4th movement, rehearsal mark 4.



Yup, exactly.


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## erica-grace (Apr 4, 2019)

Thanks guys 

Would I need to break that line up? Because, that is the entire line


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## tonaliszt (Apr 4, 2019)

HeliaVox said:


> Or instead of breaking it up rhymically like in the above example, have one seat play the first two groupings and the second seat play the second two groupings. Similar to what Prokofiev does in the Classical Symphony 4th movement, rehearsal mark 4.


I would agree, but the example isn't exactly analogous. The issue in the op's example is that clarinets can't double tongue that fast. I know someone posted an example, but as far as I know, so-called "triple tonguing" (as it says in the video), is an extended technique on the clarinet that all players shouldn't be expected to know (even in the comments of that video, it seems most clarinetists were amazed at his technique). However, at a slower tempo, I would agree with you. 

Both dovetailing and creating artificial lines are essential tools in the orchestrator's playbook. Imo in this case, creating artificial lines is the way to go.


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## José Herring (Apr 4, 2019)

At that tempo it would be no problem for any reasonably skilled clarinetist to do for up to about 4 to 6 bars without a break. The solo clarinet literature is riddled with similar passages. If the player couldn't do it he couldn't call himself a professional.


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## José Herring (Apr 4, 2019)

One more thing it's the repetition that makes it easy. 

When you have repeated notes like that you can ricochet your tongue off the reed and make it a popping sound. It's really fun to do and sounds way more impressive that it actually is.

What I wouldn't do as a clarinetist is try to double or triple tongue that. Way too mushy of a sound is created and I would save the double or triple tongue for passages that are too difficult to do single tongue. But, for clarinet double and triple tonguing is no faster than a good single tongue it's just that you can do it for longer because single tongue gets tiresome when repeated for too long too fast. And, you've never felt pain like the muscle under your tongue when it cramps up. Well maybe rapping your shin against a truck hitch is worse. But, not by much.


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## José Herring (Apr 4, 2019)

Lastly, sorry for the spam post. But, there is no need to put stacc. It couldn't be done any other way so you will get stacc no matter what you put as the articulation.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 4, 2019)

I wouldn't necessarily have the clarinets do that figure though. Doesn't really sound good IMO. I'd rather have woodwinds play just the accents and leave the root note repetitions for violins or so. Or have them play in 8ths, so that there's always one root note in between the moving ones.


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## José Herring (Apr 4, 2019)

What, don't listen to him. A really good clarinet section could rock it!


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## tonaliszt (Apr 4, 2019)

josejherring said:


> What, don't listen to him. A really good clarinet section could rock it!


You can't argue with the clarinet player!


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## erica-grace (Apr 4, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I wouldn't necessarily have the clarinets do that figure though. Doesn't really sound good IMO.


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## erica-grace (Apr 4, 2019)

josejherring said:


> What, don't listen to him. A really good clarinet section could rock it!


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## erica-grace (Apr 4, 2019)

josejherring said:


> At that tempo it would be no problem for any reasonably skilled clarinetist to do for up to about 4 to 6 bars without a break. The solo clarinet literature is riddled with similar passages. If the player couldn't do it he couldn't call himself a professional.



Thank you for your posts!


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## erica-grace (Apr 4, 2019)

tonaliszt said:


> creating artificial lines is the way to go.



What does that mean?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 4, 2019)

josejherring said:


> What, don't listen to him. A really good clarinet section could rock it!



Egos aside, it doesn't sound good! Hand on heart.


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## HeliaVox (Apr 5, 2019)

And thats the great thing about orchestration and knowing how instruments work: every suggestion here is a valid choice. What kind of effect are you going for? Every choice mentioned will give you a slightly different texture to the phrase you originally posted.
You might also want to give that line to another set of winds. The clarinet overblows on the 12th, and I think the b to a is right at the "break" of the clarinet and will be very difficult for anyone to play. I haven't played a clarinet in over 2 decades, so my memory might be fuzzy


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## José Herring (Apr 5, 2019)

douggibson said:


> Interesting. Two questions
> 
> 1. Do you find his register ok ? Aren't we hanging out at the "break" here ? Crossing the break no big deal here ?
> 
> ...


Really the line is no problem. Solo or a2 it would be fine. 

If a player hasn't learned how to navigate a break them he really hasn't achieved the status of a pro player--or even a good college level player at that.

You could dovetail but if it isn't lasting for more than a few bars I wouldn't worry about that.

If you are worried about it the only thing that I would suggest is that it would sound cooler if the first two notes in each group of four were slurred.



I'll see if my tongue is still working and give you a real life example. I'm a little out of shape so it will be a test to see if I still got it or if I need to start playing again


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## Québ (Apr 5, 2019)

Not a problem for any decent clarinet section, even for a good student orchestra


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## José Herring (Apr 5, 2019)

So I went a recorded two takes back to back (Clarinet Licks). First one isn't as clean but I seem to like it better because it sounds more human. The second take is definitely more clean and popping. Also, I doubled on with 2 takes (clarinet Lick a2)

Mind you I haven't had the clarinet in my mouth for about 2 years until this morning and I got really close with no practice at all. So for anybody that actually plays everyday like I use to this would be a piece of cake not even requiring any practice.

I also recorded it at the written pitch you have so it sounds a half step lower than what you have posted. Tthe clarinet is pitched at bflat. So at the pitch you have posted once the part is trasposed it wouldn't go across the break.

Again, it took me all of about 3 minutes and I haven't played in 2 years . I can't even remember the last time I had the clarinet in my mouth before today

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/clarinet-licks-mp3.19297/][/AUDIOPLUS]
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/clarinet-lick-a2-mp3.19296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## erica-grace (Apr 5, 2019)

Thank you Jose! 

Can you (or anyone, really) explain the "breaking point"? Is it similar to full voice vs. falsetto in the human voice?


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## José Herring (Apr 5, 2019)

The Clarinet has a unique register. When you press the register key to skip to a higher octave it actually gives you the leap of a 12th ( 1 octave and a fourth). So if I'm playing low E (E below middle C) and I hit the register key the note resulting will be a 12th higher or B. 

So when a youngin' is learning the clarinet the register to go to a higher octave is problematic because you have to go from all keys off the instrument (open G above middle C, A bflat ect..) in the left hand to all keys covered like in B and C above middle C. That's called the break and it basically is very few if any holes and keys covered to all or most holes and keys covered to navigate the break.

The above is a simple explanation as the combination of few to many keys covered and the number of intervals can of course be varied depending on the music.

Also on a more advanced level in order to get a good tone and to get the notes to speak between different registers requires slightly different air pressure and mouth changes (embouchure) 

But, after a while it's like meh...... Not a big deal. The trick is to never let you fingers travel too far away from any key at any moment while playing. That way the distance to cover all or most keys is minimal. And, also to figure out how to do quick embouchure changes and air pressure changes which comes with practice. Which leads to another problem. You can over-blow a lower octave and get a 12th above without pressing the register key. That's why air pressure is important when going back and forth over the break. If you blow too hard in the lower register you get the higher register (12th) or a squeak (a high harmonic partial) and if you don't blow hard enough when pressing the register key the upper register will never speak.

I know that is long winded and seems very complicated but honestly by the time a player reaches and decent junior high level playing ability he's got that all worked out. 

The biggest hurdle in playing the clarinet like a virtuoso is just to be able to have the strength and coordination to bang your instrument into submission. Clarinet is a temperamental finicky little bitch that has to be tamed like a wild beast.


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