# Muzzle on Daniel James?



## SimonViklund (Jun 10, 2018)

I read a tweet from Daniel James where he said he's been "essentially banned from talking about anything Spitfire on vi-control. (Positive or negative)."

I'd like to hear the rationale behind this from the person/people who run this forum and I'd like to know whether this stems from any explicit requests from Spitfire - who obviously in part fund the forums because they buy ad space here.

I personally think that the whole HZS debacle would have blown over quickly should Spitfire have done what any professionals should do in similar situations: Ignore the bad press, smile and just ride out the storm.

If HZS was such a huge investment for Spitfire that it was "too big to fail" and they couldn't accept any bad press, then that's entirely their own fault. If Daniel had the wrong expectations on the library (I know he had very specific ones) then that's again the fault of Spitfire, their marketing and pre-release announcements.

Daniel, just like anyone else, is entitled to his opinion and no one should tell him not to express it. I think it's _very_ worrysome that this forum is censoring _any_ voice, and it detracts immensely from what I see as the purpose of the forum - being a place where consumers and pros can share knowledge and honest opinions on VIs.

Who knows how many voices have been silenced without anyone knowing about it? I'll be visiting this forum more infrequently in the future, knowing now that it isn't the source of honest opinions I once thought it was.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 11, 2018)

Since I don’t want my response to this to get buried on what would now be page 4 of this thread (what a nice surprise this morning …), I’ve moved the other responses to this thread. Not an ideal solution, and I do sincerely apologize for that, but a number of things I’m about to say are things I’ve said before, so I need to make sure I get heard on this.

First, Spitfire did not ask me to do this. They have _never_ asked me to delete negative posts about them, other than one time last year when Paul complained (rightly IMO) that someone wrote “Sh**fire” in their thread. I did edit that post, but then as I read the rest of the thread (I’m not an orchestral guy, so I rarely read Spitfire threads), I noticed a lot of other negative posts. I emailed them that in theory, the Commercial Announcements section is a “safe zone” and if they like, we could enforce that. They said no. They didn’t want any appearance of censorship, and asked that I not do any moderating in their threads.

They’ve stayed true to that. Other than the “Sh**fire” incident, I have not gotten a single request from Spitfire to delete, edit, or do anything at all in their threads. None. In fact, other than their ad department sending me ads to posts, I had had no conversations at all with Spitfire since then. Daniel, on the other hand …

We get reported posts from Daniel from time to time. He’s a guy who needs to have the last word, so sometimes he’ll tangle with someone else who also needs to have the last word, so the conversations often turn ugly and Daniel sometimes believes the other guy went too far and then tells us about it. (Ah, the joys of running a forum.)

On one occasion in April, he complained about JohnG, who is one of the most measured and calm guys I know. (Sorry, but if you’re in a conversation with John Graham that has devolved to where you feel you need to report a post, then you’re doing something wrong.) So I sent Daniel a PM (while I was on vacation, mind you) suggesting that maybe having the last word isn’t as important as it seems, and the best solution might be to just let the topic go. Everybody’s points were already made on page one, so page 30 isn’t doing anyone any good.

I have to write messages like that way too often and I don’t enjoy this role as Dorm RA, by the way. I do have a job (Realitone) that has suffered significantly since taking ownership of this forum. These emails (or even this post) don’t write themselves and I’m spending 10 to 20 hours per week dealing with this stuff. Most days I will get at least one _“Mike, you gotta do something about xxx!!!”_ PM or email. It’s draining. Anyway …

On Thursday, Daniel sent me a PM, this time saying he’s going to quit the forum. Garry (his nemesis at the moment) is giving him a hard time. I spent about an hour writing a response. It had to be written carefully, because I very much want Daniel to stay on the forum, although the drama and constant demand to play Solomon is wearing me out. Not to get melodramatic about all this, but I’ve already approached a couple people about selling the forum, because I can’t keep doing this. It’s too stressful and as I said, it’s seriously costing Realitone.

Anyway, it started becoming clear to me as I read this thread that Daniel has a thing against Spitfire. Maybe it’s just me, but some of his accusations seem pretty wacky, and I can’t help but wonder if there’s some backstory that is motivating him.

Now, up to this point, I have had no conversations whatsoever with Spitfire about any of this. For that matter, I had nothing to do with moving the Charity thread to the Drama zone. (That was a request from Garry, and indirectly from Daniel. I didn’t even know at the time what the “drama” was about. Like I said, I don’t read Spitfire threads.)

_After_ that Thursday private message from Daniel, though, I did have a conversation with Paul and Christian. It turns out that there is indeed some backstory to the HZ Strings affair and it’s more significant than most of us probably thought. Interesting. I can’t help but wonder at this point whether there’s some ulterior motivation to all the anti-Spitfire posts Daniel writes. I doubt it’s intentional, but I think there’s some underlying bitterness at play.

Anyway, Daniel’s forum departure lasted all of 24 hours. He was right back to arguing with Garry that Spitfire’s Labs promotion amounts to “predatory pricing”, as well as other ethics charges against Spitfire. More reported posts, more drama for me to deal with. My suggestions (on several occasions) to Daniel to maybe let topics go are seemingly ignored.

This was going to go on forever, so I honestly felt there was only one solution - Ask Daniel not to post anymore about Spitfire. This wasn’t unilateral, by the way. I also asked several other members to not post anything about Daniel. This plan, flawed as it may be, is the only way I could think of to get this fighting to end.

This solution is possibly a little draconian, but I believe most people here would prefer fewer of these tedious debates on the forum. Disturbingly, though, many of the people leaping to Daniel’s side and condemning me are the same people who in previous years left the forum for these _exact same reasons_! The hypocrisy blows my mind. Negativity towards East West? They left in a huff. Negativity towards Spitfire? How dare Mike Greene do anything about it!

Look, you guys can hate Spitfire all you want. You can even hate me all you want. (There’s a 7 page thread on another forum dedicated to what an asshole I am, so I’m starting to get used to it. Wait … no I’m not. Anyone wanna buy a forum?  ) But don’t you think the forum would be better if Mike and Mike from CineSamples posted here again? Or Andrew from Audiobro? Or Nick and Doug from East West? Or Alex and Jonathan from Embertone?

They all used to be regulars here, but they were all chased away by various people who had to make their points so relentlessly that the forum became too unpleasant for them. For people familiar with the history, you’ll recall that it wasn’t product critiques that chased them away. It was certain relentless members who kept hammering some annoying point over and over and over again.

Is it really that outrageous to try to stop that? If the majority of the forum believes a member is getting out of hand with their attacks on a company, is it that unreasonable to ask that member to stop? Free speech is one thing, but when it’s chasing good people away, that’s another.

By no means am I suggesting negative comments not be allowed. VI-Control is first and foremost a forum for members, not developers, and that isn’t going to change. If a product sucks, we need to know it.

But if one member is involved in about a hundred total pages (I think that’s literally true!) critical of one particular company, then can’t we agree that’s going too far? Paul stopped posting here months ago. Christian is still here, but after our email exchange this last couple days, I’m now learning he’s on the edge, too. I tried to handle this in a more traditional way, but I failed. I totally agree this new solution is not ideal, but for everyone’s sanity, especially my own, I have to do what I have to do.

For the record, yesterday at 1:00 (long before this thread was started), I clarified to Daniel that if he does a YouTube video review of a Spitfire product (as opposed to Spitfire drama), he CAN post a thread here linking to it, even if the review is negative. He can also speak positively about Spitfire if he likes. He’s not “banned.” The ONLY thing I’m trying to accomplish here is an end to the drama. I find it annoying that there is no mention of that in Daniel’s Twitter feed, nor here in this thread.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 11, 2018)

This is a separate post to address the claim I keep seeing that _“Mike makes decisions based on Spitfire advertising dollars.”_ I’m posting this here so I can point to it later when I will inevitably hear the same accusation again.

First, I didn’t buy this forum to make money. I’ve been very lucky in my music career. I realize many people struggle financially, so I apologize for the possible insensitivity of what I’m about to say, but I’m lucky enough to be in a situation where Spitfire’s $175/month ad buy has virtually no financial impact on my life.

Don’t get me wrong, 175 bucks is 175 bucks, so I’ll happily take it, but there are nine other advertisers who also subscribe to the deluxe $175/month “Complete Package.“ The idea that Spitfire’s $175 gets more attention from me than the same $175 from Virharmonic or Best Service or Sample Logic or Sonixinema or 2cAudio doesn’t make any sense. Why would I make myself Spitfire’s whore for that?

More significantly, the alleged dynamic of Spitfire having control over me is backwards. Just think about it for a minute. I own the forum that is arguably the number one place for Spitfire to gain new customers. 43,000 page views by 9,000 unique visitors per day, baby. The power is all mine. (Okay, that sounded a little pompous, but I'm just trying to make a point.)

So if I decided to raise Spitfire’s ad rate to $1,000/month, or even $5k/month, they’d be pissed, but they would have to pay it. They’d have no choice, because I have them over a barrel. If I move their threads to Tier 2, where only logged in members can see them, they’d lose 2/3 of all their post views. (Two thirds of the 43,000 daily page views are people who are _not_ members, so they'd never see their announcements.) The dollars lost from those lost potential customers far outweighs almost any ad rate I could dream up.

I’m not going to do that, of course. Paul and Christian are my friends (one night at NAMM, Paul and I solved the world’s problems over beers until the Tangerine Grill Bar kicked us out at closing time), so there’s no such power dynamic in either direction. Still, for anyone to think that Spitfire is waving $175 in my face and chanting, _“Mike, you will do what we say”_ is silly. More than silly, it's insulting.

With that said, I do care very much if Paul or Christian are unhappy about things on the forum. Not because I care about $175, but rather because we can all agree that these guys are great for the forum. I _want_ them here. (How could anyone not?) I’m not going to make a rule against criticism, of course, but if something is getting out of hand, I’m going to listen. (Again, just to be clear, they have _never_ asked for rules against criticism, and specifically asked that I _not_ moderate negative comments in their threads. They also never even asked me to do what I did with Daniel. That was all me, motivated by what I believe is for the good of the forum, not just Spitfire.)

For that matter, I’ve also had conversations with Mike and Mike at CineSamples and Andrew K (Audiobro) and Alex and Jonathan (Embertone), asking what we can do to get them back. It has nothing to do with ad dollars, it has to do with voices that I think would be valuable here.


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## Jaap (Jun 11, 2018)

I think you earned a pretzel now Mike.

Seriously: Thanks for this clear and well constructed post.
Would love to see them all come back to be honest (though another signature for Andrew (Thonex) maybe, smashed my screen enough on that annoying bug thingie  )
And an edit: would also love to see Daniel sticking around btw!


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## Ashermusic (Jun 11, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> But don’t you think the forum would be better if Mike and Mike from CineSamples posted here again? Or Andrew from Audiobro? Or Nick and Doug from East West? Or Alex and Jonathan from Embertone?
> 
> They all used to be regulars here, but they were all chased away by various people who had to make their points so relentlessly that the forum became too unpleasant for them. For people familiar with the history, you’ll recall that it wasn’t product critiques that chased them away. It was certain relentless members who kept hammering some annoying point over and over and over again.
> 
> Is it really that outrageous to try to stop that? If the majority of the forum believes a member is getting out of hand with their attacks on a company, is it that unreasonable to ask that member to stop? Free speech is one thing, but when it’s chasing good people away, that’s another.



Bingo. I have said that many times because developers have told me this at NAMMM personally.

As someone who used to fight with Daniel also and finally crossed even my OWN lines and had to apologize, I became convinced of the wisdom of Mike's advice that having the last word should not be a priority for me, and I no longer seek to have it.

Mike is about as anti-policing as any forum owner will be (too much so IMHO) so people here who believe in very light moderation should beg him to continue.


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## robgb (Jun 11, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> This is a separate post to address the claim I keep seeing that _“Mike makes decisions based on Spitfire advertising dollars.”_ I’m posting this here so I can point to it later when I will inevitably hear the same accusation again.



Thank you for the explanation. I don't agree that Daniel should be banned from discussing Spitfire -- I think his points are interesting and valid and in the spirit of open discussion, and banning such discussion creates a chilling effect that can't be good for any forum. But it IS your forum and you obviously have the right to do with it what you will.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 11, 2018)

I personally wasn't wild about the endless James video on HZ Strings (for one thing, calling one of the patches too low volume when a) the patch was labelled "soft" and b) he only had one of the mics on). It seemed more like someone whom had too much caffeine at the expense of wanting to deeply review anything.

Though it's obvious Daniel has helped a number of folks here, for which I'm personally grateful, I think that video was a bit like him jumping the shark imo.

I mean no disrespect or offense to Daniel, whom has put out MUCH better and educational videos. He can be a good educator. But I do agree, there's something between him and SF. It would be sad to see him go, though.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 11, 2018)

I agree with you Mike....


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## woodsdenis (Jun 11, 2018)

Fair enough Mike, point well explained.


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## Daniel James (Jun 11, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Since I don’t want my response to this to get buried on what would now be page 4 of this thread (what a nice surprise this morning …), I’ve moved the other responses to this thread. Not an ideal solution, and I do sincerely apologize for that, but a number of things I’m about to say are things I’ve said before, so I need to make sure I get heard on this.
> 
> First, Spitfire did not ask me to do this. They have _never_ asked me to delete negative posts about them, other than one time last year when Paul complained (rightly IMO) that someone wrote “Sh**fire” in their thread. I did edit that post, but then as I read the rest of the thread (I’m not an orchestral guy, so I rarely read Spitfire threads), I noticed a lot of other negative posts. I emailed them that in theory, the Commercial Announcements section is a “safe zone” and if they like, we could enforce that. They said no. They didn’t want any appearance of censorship, and asked that I not do any moderating in their threads.
> 
> ...




Hey Mike,

I report posts when I think a topic is getting out of hand. Or when lots of people are re-asking the same question. Usually I report something so that a mod comes in to referee a bit BECAUSE things are going off track. To suggest I am doing it so you will remove posts to allow me the last word is ridiculous.

In that PM where I was saying I was thinking of leaving the forum, I explained why. It was because of the mental issues I was dealing with as a side effect of allowing one side of the forum to pile onto me as a fucking individual Mike. Not a 40 person strong team. Relentless abuse of my abilities as a composer as a reviewer, and as a FUCKING PERSON Mike. Hans himself questioning my person. Paul himself questioning me as a person. Now you Mike, questioning me as a person.

I explained in that private message the mental problems I am now suffering from because of the bullshit and why I was getting close to my limit. Close to the fucking edge.

BUT NO it must be for some fucking anti Spitfire vendetta. Nothing to do with the fact holding an opinion led to a torrent of abuse towards me as a fucking person. I never make it about the people, I make it about the product and about the company. 40+ vs 1. But the 1 must be the problem.

So yes I thought about leaving, mostly so I wouldn't take myself off to a dark room and shoot myself in the fucking face. I had literally had enough.

So you know what. Fuck everything about this whole situation. I can't take it anymore.

And I am sure this 'conversation' you had with Spitfire was completely objective and unbiased right? And it also disturbs me that after that 'chat' with Spitfire I then receive a message saying I can no longer talk about them.

Its disgusting to me that knowing the things I told you, you still framed that post that way.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 11, 2018)

Daniel, a little advice from an older guy: relax, it's a forum, these people are not important to your life. You get to decide how much of what you believe is empirical and how much is opinion and how much to weight your own opinion vs dissenting opinions. 

It isn't life or death, Nothing that goes on here will cure cancer. It's just a forum and just internet talk. Hug your loved ones, drink your favorite libation, and create some music.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 11, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> So yes I thought about leaving, mostly so I wouldn't take myself off to a dark room and shoot myself in the fucking face. I had literally had enough.
> 
> So you know what. Fuck everything about this whole situation. I can't take it anymore.
> 
> Its disgusting to me that knowing the things I told you, you still framed that post that way.



This forum (no forum) is worth any of what you just described. There's nothing wrong with a break (I get the feeling you're more than aware of that). It could reset many things for you, just taking a solid month off. I do it, and it works. 

Btw, you might find taking time off from here refreshes the heck out you in other areas of your life.


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## Tice (Jun 11, 2018)

I know I'm the new guy on the block here, and I hardly know the finer details here, but Daniel (or anybody else), if you're dealing with mental issues, and suicidal thoughts, you don't have to struggle with that alone. Please reach out.
All discourse asside, I really hope things would stop with this, as when someone is saying they can't take any more and need to protect their mental state, things can get irreversable right quick.

I deal with suicide as a volunteer. This can't be joked with. Someone is trying their best to set a boundary.


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## StillLife (Jun 11, 2018)

Maybe I am naive, but why should we ever curse, call eachother names, be rude on a forum like this? If we're angry, we should not go on the internet, certainly not to VI: we should write a song about it, smash a guitar, whatever - we're musicians!
Thank you, Mike, for running this site, and for your explanation, though that should not have been necessary, imo.


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## Confuzzly (Jun 11, 2018)

Genuine question... Are there any moderators on this forum anymore?

The only person I see doing any moderation these days is Mike, and while I appreciate the job he has done thus far, being the "Dorm RA" shouldn't fall under the responsibility of an admin of a website this large. That is a moderators job. An administrators job on a site this size should be mostly just that... administration. Mostly behind the scenes business.

Just to be clear, I am not criticizing the job Mike has done so far. I just think he needs some help. So much of the drama that occurs on this forum could be avoided with proper moderation, just as every other forum on the internet has done. This forum is no longer some small community of professional composers. It is a decent sized community full of various opinions, experiences, personalities, and cultures. Because of this, some conflict is inevitable, but small disputes don't need to be left to fester and turn into month long rivalries. Moderation can help with that.

Obviously I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, so I don't know whether mod candidates have been contacted or whether there had ever been candidates to begin with. However, in my opinion, proper moderation and mod structure is needed not just for the benefit of the forum, but for Mike's sanity as well.


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## SBK (Jun 11, 2018)

Oh my god, Daniel please calm, you are a nice person and this isn't that big deal. Mike please don't ban Daniel. Just calm the spirit please. Daniel take a break to relax and forget all this. Although I don't know the whole situation I am sure you can get over this keeping nice relationship with everyone.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 11, 2018)

Like all forums (and even moreso on Facebook), v.i. is subject to the law of diminishing returns. To relentlessly defend oneself, in the face of what seems negative potential return, is folly....and possibly unhealthy.


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## StillLife (Jun 11, 2018)

Daniel, please calm down. Do not take what is said on the internet too seriously. Channel your energy in different ways, you're a very talented guy. I never felt you were questioned as a person, I am very sorry if you do.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 11, 2018)

I'll add to the chorus.
DJ - was clear enough to me watching a couple of your vids that the whole drama (HZ strings onwards) was taking a massive toll on you. Like others have said, take a break for a while and forget the forum. It's *really* not worth running yourself to ground over. We cease to exist when you close the browser window. 

Sad thing is, all of this could be avoided if the individuals involved sat down and thrashed things out over a beer. The internet has a horrible way of blowing things out of proportion.


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## NoamL (Jun 11, 2018)

SBK said:


> Oh my god, Daniel please calm, you are a nice person and this isn't that big deal. Mike please don't ban Daniel. Just calm the spirit please.




All that needs to be said. Might add that Daniel is a good composer... as if anyone here doubts that.


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## synergy543 (Jun 11, 2018)

People say its just a forum, or the internet, and advise just to relax. However, the effects of comments on a forum or the internet can be extremely powerful. Keith Emerson blew his brains out due to critical comments about his performance abilities just before a major concert tour. And there are many other such examples. So lets not play down the impact of our comments. The internet also allows easy distortion of our comments and intentions as text loses so many important communication cues such as body language, tone, inflections, etc. We are also bombarded by daily news on the internet that raises our stress levels and triggers us to become agitated at one another. Yet, were we to meet face to face, we'd likely see each other in a very different light. And misunderstood comments could quickly be addressed and resolved.

What's the answer? I don't know but in the mean time, lets try and reach out to one another in a supportive manner or at least with a positive attitude towards one another rather than projecting and assuming negativity. And lets focus on our common interests which we all share and not let distractions and misunderstandings take over our dialog. Have some forgiveness with those whom you interact with online.

And Daniel, I worked in Japan for 16 years alone in isolation and I know how tough it can be at times. You just have to take a break and don't let the emotions eat away at you. Spend some time with those around you. While many of us enjoy your comments and charisma and company, you have to be at peace with yourself or the tension builds up. Take it easy and take care of yourself first.


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## robgb (Jun 11, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Its disgusting to me that knowing the things I told you, you still framed that post that way.


Daniel don't mess around with your mental health. I've had an actual breakdown that was the result of intense bullying by a colleague, and believe me, I know the pain of depression, anxiety and panic attacks. It's kind of a miracle that I didn't go the way of Anthony Bourdain, and I certainly wouldn't want to see it happen to anyone else. The best thing to do is find supportive people, who actually understand mental illness and don't ridicule or punish you for it, and stay the hell away from whatever is causing it until you're in a much better frame of mind.


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## Voider (Jun 11, 2018)

I can completely understand Daniel. That's what I wrote earlier: People unfairly don't make a difference. Daniel says something about a product, but gets attacked personal. He says 8 of 10 good things about a library, but people hammer on that 2 bad things. And no matter how many times he's explaining his point to resolve the misunderstanding, they always return to those two points, ignoring everything else he said so that he has to start over and over again.

And of course you want to defend yourself when you get attacked. Everyone of us would care for our own reputation and not leaving bad things said about us that we feel were misunderstood (on purpose or not) unclear in the room. That has nothing to do with the wish "to have the last word", you simply don't want others to push you into a negative light that you're not in.

In many discussion between Daniel and someone else, I've never seen Daniel getting personal. And if he ever did I am sure he didn't start it. I on the contrary saw people attacking him personally while he still sticked to facts and did not lower himself to make use of the same methods. And that's actually a huge difference and why I find it unfair, that some people refuse to look at the details and distinguish who did what in which manner.

Because if you do you'd see that Daniel isn't the problem, by far not. He's not the one starting insulting personal arguments or trying to twist the words of other people around on purpose to attack them, like some used to do with him.


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## NoamL (Jun 11, 2018)

I guess I'll say 1 more thing maybe. About people "threatening to leave the forum."

The problem with VI-C recently isn't the moderation. It's that there are people here who simply aren't composers or musicians, at least as far as I can verify. These people never posted anything in Member's Compositions, never posted a website, never shared any of their work. Yet they were participating here every day in the drama threads. There was one person who was going back and forth between the VSL Synchron thread, the Hans Zimmer Strings thread, and the Headshot thread, just stirring up shit honestly. I checked his account just now and he or she hasn't logged in since May, which is good.

I think if we all report posts and posters like that more often, this forum will return to normalcy. It's about MUSICIANS helping MUSICIANS. I don't have any yardstick for knowing if someone else's artistic or technological judgement is reliable if I don't even know if they're a musician.

The flip side to that is two things

1) if you're discussing something (or arguing) with someone who you KNOW is a great musician and has the chops or the experience that would be so valuable to learn from, think about which is more important: is it more important to "win"? or to have your say, let them have their say, and don't keep stewing a situation that might end up with them leaving. I think that's crucial. This forum has been accused (from all angles) of being a "Zimmer fanclub" but for me at least the list of members who I'd hate to see leave includes Christian, Daniel, the EastWest guys (didn't they start posting again recently?) in the professional library world, as well as some incredibly gifted composers and mixers (y'all know who you are  )

2) if you're having a debate with someone, or getting called out or even shit-talked by someone, it's wise to react to that in proportion to how much of a nobody they are.  Even being called out by a whole crowd of nobodies (which, Daniel, is something that _both_ you and Spitfire have had to endure recently?) is meaningless.


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## NoamL (Jun 11, 2018)

PS @Mike Greene I have no idea why you decided to engage with "that" French guy's forum. They've called me out at least six or seven times on that forum and I'm never going to engage with that bullshit.

PPS quite interesting about 2/3rds of viewers being nonmembers.


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## jamwerks (Jun 11, 2018)

Imo, more aggressive moderation is the answer to VI-Controls problems. Assholes (not naming names) are attracted to forums. Moderators should be constantly pushing back!


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## ironbut (Jun 11, 2018)

Anyone who can't see Mike's point of view has never had to moderate (let alone moderate _and_ own) an online forum.
It's no fun having to be the bad guy and waste tons of time explaining your justifications for free.
I agree that it's too bad that talented guys like Danial might have to be banned in the long run but sometimes the only alternative to those kinds of decisions is to not having a forum at all.


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## synergy543 (Jun 11, 2018)

NoamL, I think there is another possible issue at hand and that is that many great artists have big egos and little tolerance for other big egos. Two acquaintances on vi that I consider possibly the two most brilliant musicians have both been banned in the past due to spiteful comments towards one another. Yet, they love music with the deepest passion and they are both frighteningly brilliant. They just don't have any tolerance for one another. Not being nearly as brilliant, I tend to be more neutral and tolerant in my communications and less vocal in my opinions so I enjoy connecting with them both. As I said, I don't know what the answer is, but the issues are somewhat complex and intertwined. Musicians helping musicians is a laudable goal but its likely about as successful as FB is at making the world all friends sharing cat photos with each other. Tolerance for one another I guess is about the best we could hope for until AI can come up with a more intelligent solution for managing human foibles.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 11, 2018)

There are a significant number of people here who mostly come here to become instant composers, blow their credit cards on too many libraries (that they realize won't make music for them), and then decide to take their boo-boo remorse online. Those are the folks whom lay the bait. I could be wrong. They spend one heck of a lot of time early on making the rounds, then their posts turn into excuses for negative projection.

When things get too ugly, when the returns appear to be _dis_appearing, I usually just leave (best of times I land a good sized commission), but other times I'm ashamed to admit that I've said some alarmingly dumb things here...definitely no better than anyone else.


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## woodsdenis (Jun 11, 2018)

robgb said:


> Daniel don't mess around with your mental health. I've had an actual breakdown that was the result of intense bullying by a colleague, and believe me, I know the pain of depression, anxiety and panic attacks. It's kind of a miracle that I didn't go the way of Anthony Bourdain, and I certainly wouldn't want to see it happen to anyone else. The best thing to do is find supportive people, who actually understand mental illness and don't ridicule or punish you for it, and stay the hell away from whatever is causing it until you're in a much better frame of mind.


+100


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## kimarnesen (Jun 11, 2018)

I'm sure there are a good amount of research on the effect of bullying on forums. I'm not a scientist but sometimes people don't realize they are hurting someone online because they don't see the person, or don't know the person. It's just letters on the screen, and it feels so impersonal. Also, when we don't know the person, we don't know how vulnerable that person is or not.

At the same time, those who know they have a vulnerability to critisism or harassment online should also try to take some precautions by not seeking out situations where they might be exposed to such behavior that can give mental distress. In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary but until then, take the necessary steps to protect your wellbeing.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 11, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> I report posts when I think a topic is getting out of hand. Or when lots of people are re-asking the same question. Usually I report something so that a mod comes in to referee a bit BECAUSE things are going off track. To suggest I am doing it so you will remove posts to allow me the last word is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


If I betrayed any confidences or got some things wrong, I apologize for that. I tried to be as fair as I could in what I wrote, but it’s a long post and was very difficult for me to write, so it’s definitely not perfect.

In my defense, your statements on Facebook and Twitter forced me to respond. Believe me, I don’t enjoy this at all, and the fact that I consider you a friend (I still do, by the way) made it much harder. The forum is a better place with you on it. I think everyone agrees with that.

I do know things are really rough right now. (I won’t betray a confidence here, but Daniel has some heavy stuff on his plate) I hope you find whatever the best way is to deal with that. I won’t even pretend to know what “the best way” is (my wife will tell you that I’m the worst at dealing with stress), but you have lots of friends, so reach out to some who might, even if just to talk. Maybe _especially_ if just to talk. I’m not trying to go all kumbaya, but if there’s one thing we’ve learned from this episode, it’s that people care about you, Daniel.


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## paoling (Jun 11, 2018)

I like to imagine a day at a NAMM when Daniel, HZ, Paul and Mike meet and they just go and have a beer together


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 11, 2018)

paoling said:


> I like to imagine a day at a NAMM when Daniel, HZ, Paul and Mike meet and they just go and have a beer together


just keep the children far, far away (out of earshot)


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## alexd (Jun 11, 2018)

Sorry I am new to this forum,. but why would anyone get angry at Hans Zimmers strings? After all... It IS Hans Zimmers own personal strings!!!


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## robgb (Jun 11, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Even being called out by a whole crowd of nobodies


Sorry, I get the sentiment of your post, but who decides who a "nobody" is? No one here is a nobody.


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## TintoL (Jun 11, 2018)

I generally watch all Daniel's videos. He shoes such love and passion to what he does and to music. You can hear how much he cares when he plays that keyboard. That means that the music he produces is honest and true to what he wants a feels. That makes his reviews and opinions very important, at least to me. Because of his reviews I've bought a lot of libraries that I've wouldn't have ever bought (including some spitfire ones).

I find that his opinions on the video were professionaly honest. He could have used a better language, but, that's him. I can understand why an artist and producer will feel bad after such honest opinion on someones work. But, there is no doubt what soever, that there is a massive orgy of marketing surrounding that library and over hype. And I can totally agree when he said that it seems that they put more work in the marketing than in the library itself.

I find Spitfire might be over stretching their luck, niche and style by over using the "rare articulations" thing and forgetting that sable and mural are their holy grail because they concentrated on getting the library DONE.

I hope I am wrong, because I love spitfire stuff and my template is almost all spitfire. But they have grown so mega fast to glory, that it seems to be turning into another East west. So close, that they even try their own sample engine. Please guys, don't turn into the same East west story.... And, where is Andy, is he working on the solo strings legatos? I hope that is the case.

And to Daniel, if he is watching this thread: Man, don't even worry about your carrier. This will put you in a wayyy, wayyy better position. Because you are good and honest enough to challenge the masters of the day. And people see talent behind a person with such balls. All the best man....


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## theiss1979 (Jun 11, 2018)

alexd said:


> Sorry I am new to this forum,. but why would anyone get angry at Hans Zimmers strings? After all... It IS Hans Zimmers own personal strings!!!



No. It is a product by Spitfire Audio with Hans' Name attached to it. Nothing more.


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## alexd (Jun 11, 2018)

theiss1979 said:


> No. It is a product by Spitfire Audio with Hans' Name attached to it. Nothing more.



Is Hans Zimmer strings not Hans Zimmers strings? I do not understand?


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## MatFluor (Jun 12, 2018)

alexd said:


> Is Hans Zimmer strings not Hans Zimmers strings? I do not understand?


Not his "personal strings" same as Hans Zimmer Percussion is not "his personal percussion library".

It's a product that carries his name and where he helped on making it with advise so - no, it's not out of his own vault. It carries his name's because of his advise, and to link to his contemporary preference in string sound. A big ensemble and soft lips mainly.

If he uses it personally I don't know, given Hans has a strong experience with sampling himself, I would bet his own private libraries won't go on sale somewhere.


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## Replicant (Jun 12, 2018)

robgb said:


> Sorry, I get the sentiment of your post, but who decides who a "nobody" is? No one here is a nobody.



False. I am.



alexd said:


> Is Hans Zimmer strings not Hans Zimmers strings? I do not understand?



All you need to know is that it's a product made by Spitfire audio with Hans' name attached to it. Daniel James made a first-impression video that went on for hours and was largely negative.

Many shenanigans ensued, including Zimmer himself $#%*ing on Daniel. Various people went on to make 5+hour-long video rants and it seems the forum is unable to just move on.

The internet brings out the worst in all of us, and as is so often the case, it all got blown out of proportion, butts got hurt, and professionals many look up to may or may not have made fools of themselves.


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## Scrianinoff (Jun 12, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> ....
> So you know what. Fuck everything about this whole situation. I can't take it anymore.
> 
> And I am sure this 'conversation' you had with Spitfire was completely objective and unbiased right? And it also disturbs me that after that 'chat' with Spitfire I then receive a message saying I can no longer talk about them.
> ...



Daniel, I consider what you offered in your many reviews of new sample products over the years to be factual, very informative, and focusing on the strengths, and more importantly, the weaknesses of the products. Bashing, I did not see. Yes, there was, as I said some 'focusing' on weaknesses, but for good reasons, and for these reasons many people value your reviews, as do I, because this information is hard to come by, and direly needed when making purchasing decisions. Interestingly, without your Hans Zimmer Strings review some people here said they probably would not have purchased the library.

I would go so far to say that your factual presentations of new products is very close to what I consider the objective truth, the '_holy_' truth  And for that, your reviews are for me the _pearls_ among reviews, and I especially enjoyed the HZS review, however, not the bashing on you after it, and some big names, that I otherwise admire a lot, should be massively ashamed for the behaviour they showed. What did Jesus have to say about _holy _(truth) and _pearls _(of wisdom)?:

A quotation from Matthew 7:6 in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount: "*Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.*"
In my mind you are solidly in the caster and giver group Jesus talks about, and the others who so shamefully tried to trample and tear you in the other group.

Daniel, please keep up the good work, even if your information or presentation might be perceived as toxic by the few with monetary interests in these new products, because, *the people who matter don't mind, and the people who mind don't matter!*

And Mike, please stop the censoring, noting good will come of it.


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 12, 2018)

Daniel, we have not forumised (!) before, but in all honesty fwiw, if your side of events was honest and true to you and had the right motives then bollocks to everyone else. I say the same to you Mike (Greene) too for that matter, it is just unfortunate that life does not always tally up equitably between us. If Trump and that guy with the funny hairstyle can do what they've done this morning.......beers and jokes about viola players all round.


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## Vik (Jun 12, 2018)

I have deep respect for MGs attempt to dealing with all this, and also for DJs passion for what he does.
Forums simply aren't suitable for deling with negativity, personal attacks or anything which reminds of that. A forum like this needs very clear rules re. what's allowed and not (not in terms of opinions of course, but in terms of how they are presented and anything which looks like repetetive negative bias. But DH isn't banned: "I clarified to Daniel that if he does a YouTube video review of a Spitfire product (as opposed to Spitfire drama), he CAN post a thread here linking to it, even if the review is negative. He can also speak positively about Spitfire if he likes. He’s not “banned.” "
And DJ shares that this now has turned into more than he can handle. That's a statement which deserves attention and deep respect, even from people who may say that DJ is responsible for how this has developed. _ 

From what I can see, the conflict is over. _

My humble suggestion is that instead of mods/admins discussing all cases in PMs and threads, the forum needs very clear rules about avoid everything which appears as personal attacks or repetetive company attacks. When I was an admin, I had to tell the forum users that I simply can't spend so much time moderating individual conflicts/cases, and that they just had to read the rules again and stay away from discussing persons instead of opinions, always be polite (more than they would be in real life), and stay away from anything repetetive. 

And people with "strong opinions" have to be very careful about not going on about the same things, using lots of threads/posts/videos/examples to demonstrate that they are right - _even if they are_. I'm not saying that DJ is doing this (nothing against DJ, and there are too many words and too long YT-clips for ne to personally have time to check that out anyway), my point is only that we need to show more respect and be more polite here than in real life. Things are often misunderstood and overreacted upon when we don't have people in front of us. 

So, IMHO: time to move on, because...


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## leon chevalier (Jun 12, 2018)

To all my dear VIC fellows :

If you feel that your are trap in an endless debate but feel the need to remake your point for the hundredth time... Help yourself and click that emergency Button:

>>> Here <<<

That might help you. 

Love to everyone,

Leon


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## MatFluor (Jun 12, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> To all my dear VIC fellows :
> 
> If you feel that your are trap in an endless debate but feel the need to remake your point for the hundredth time... Help yourself and click that emergency Button:
> 
> ...



Mabe for the language used in these threads - another fitting emergency button. Looks the same, reads different.

>>> For more Emotion <<<


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## leon chevalier (Jun 12, 2018)

@Mike Greene I've done a banner  (


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## Iskra (Jun 12, 2018)

I've been here for a short time (compared to many others), and don't participate that much although I read the forum constantly. All the drama that happened before Mike taking the forum (remember that?) and afterwards from time to time is, honestly and from my humble point of view, absolutely useless and can only lead to 'bad taste in the mouth' (does this expression even exists in English?). This kind of drama is not what this forum is all about, fortunately all the drama is contained in a few threads / topics or people -and although noticeable, it's not spread all over the place. 

I know all of us love this little corner of the internet were we can get in contact with people that share our passion, but really, it IS an online forum. It's not a life-or-death thing. I'm sure we can all be mature enough to take a little perspective, be kind and educated in our writings, and just be able to let things go. Anyone that participated on other forums or just navigated thru the internet for a while can quickly identify the trolls or soon-to-be-trolls. Just don't feed them and don't imitate their practices when dealing with them or normal people, which is part of the reason of some of the drama happening (have always the last word, debate endlessly thru a million pages where all POVs have been clearly stated, call names, get into personal issues, you know the deal...). In a forum you need to be 10 times more polite than in person, and getting repetitive is soooo close to trolling. Just remembering this would spare us a lot of the bad moments in the forum.

I for one appreciate the transparency of both Mike and Daniel here. I fully understand that there are moments when you have to force people to let go, actually so Mike can let this b*llshit go too. And @Daniel, I enjoy your videos and value your opinions very much in this forum, my little and probably stupid advice to you is: just don't take it so seriously. It is a great forum, but once again, it is an online forum, it's not worth to have serious shit or issues about it - actually it shouldn't have that kind of effect on anyone. 

Can we all kumbaya together now?


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## rottoy (Jun 12, 2018)

I'm not even involved in this personally and it still bothers me immensely.
We're far beyond the point of "just lighten up" here, the damage is done.
I can only hope Spitfire, Hans and Daniel hug it out at some point in the future.


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## Iskra (Jun 12, 2018)

rottoy said:


> So industry giants undermining someone's character shouldn't be taken seriously, because this is an online forum?


That's not what I said, probably expressed myself wrong (not native English speaker here): no one should take an online forum so seriously to the point of getting involved in a endless discussion that could lead to anyone undermining his or her character. Do you think if that thread have had 2 pages instead of 200 it would have gone that far? I don't think so, but that's just my opinion, of course. But anyway, soon as that thread went south I just moved away, so I'm not aware of the details - and I don't want to know and open again the can of worms.

Maybe the damage is done, but there's not a single individual to blame. A bit more understanding and politeness from everyone would have prevented that. Plus, that industry giant is also just a person, so it is wrong if he undermined someone's character, but same as is wrong that someone undermined his character, isn't it? Should anything be taken more or less seriously if it's coming from an industry giant instead of someone else? Again, I don't think so. Maybe it's just me. 
All this bother me too, but for different reasons I guess. It bothers me because it could have been easily avoided in the first place and it ended up making some people -like Daniel and probably Mike and even maybe Hans or Paul and Christian- feel bad and in general making this forum worse.


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## Beluga (Jun 12, 2018)

The guy, Daniel James, is talking about killing himself, because he is feeling he got harassed (or profoundly questionned in his personailty) by memebrs of this forum. Just a line to say, this should be taken seriously and an invitation to be a bit more caring when dealing with each others.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 12, 2018)

This all speaks of a wider issue about this forum.

To be clear: I really like this place. I've got great advice from all sorts of kind folks, including buying advice direct from composer giants. That sort of stuff is priceless.

But.

The worst habit that (some of) the VI control community has, is taking an issue that doesn't matter in real life and blowing it up out of all proportion. A flashing ad banner is easily dealt with a two finger swipe on the touchpad. A dodgy legato transition is dealt with by a tut, some quick CC editing or another musical approach. Yet frequently these things erupt into multi-page dust-ups.

It's the sort of argument that only matters at 2am with an open browser window but because there's no face to face discussion, it simmers in our brains. We take the most negative angle we can from it and off we go onto page 18 of the fight.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't think it will even change. Maybe a bit more self awareness would be nice.


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## redlester (Jun 12, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> This all speaks of a wider issue about this forum.
> 
> To be clear: I really like this place. I've got great advice from all sorts of kind folks, including buying advice direct from composer giants. That sort of stuff is priceless.
> 
> ...



I can assure you, based on my membership of another internet forum related to my football club of choice, VI Control is no different to anywhere else in these respects!

Regarding two fingered swipes, I think Christian dealt with that one in his recent vlog.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 12, 2018)

Yeah, I've seen bitchiness in pretty much every music forum I've belonged to. 

Invariably it always seems to orbit around 'people feeling a company or companies are ripping them off in some way' verses 'people defending said company'. 

I used to hang out on the Maschine forum and before that dogs on Acid and it was the same in those forums too.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 12, 2018)

My only problem with Daniel's approach, and because I worked for EW I was too harsh in expressing it, is that he approaches all new libraries in an "instant gratification" way, open it up, play it and see what happens. And they are not all designed for that,. Some require substantial knowledge and time to use them well. So I think that actually performs a _disservice_ to the community at times, but I know that others disagree and I have come to respect that.

I will only make the comparison that I can easily sit down and sight read Satie and the music will sound lovely. I cannot sit down and instantly sight read Ravel but that does not make the music any less lovely when mastered, it just takes a lot more work.

But I no longer have any personal animus to Daniel and stay or go, I wish him the best.


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## mouse (Jun 12, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> My only problem with Daniel's approach, and because I worked for EW I was too harsh in expressing it, is that he approaches all new libraries in an "instant gratification" way, open it up, play it and see what happens. And they are not all designed for that,. Some require substantial knowledge and time to use them well. So I think that actually performs a _disservice_ to the community at times, but I know that others disagree and I have come to respect that.



Not sure how many more times he has to say it wasn't a review, it was a "first look" video.


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## John Busby (Jun 12, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> he approaches all new libraries in an "instant gratification" way, open it up, play it and see what happens.


Soooo is that a bad thing? Nearly every developer's walk through videos (EW included) consist of, load a patch, press a key, write music. I mean EW's engine is called PLAY for Pete's sake, what does a guy have to do? If i shell out $600 for something you're damn right i wanna be instantly gratified with it!

to say Daniel in any way performs a disservice to the community is bullocks because he demands nothing from the community, save for respect that he's a human being! And to compare anything that Spitfire or any developer puts on the shelf to sight reading Ravel is ridiculous! 

P.S. i also respect your opinions Jay and in no way am i trying to be a douche


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## Ashermusic (Jun 12, 2018)

mouse said:


> Not sure how many more times he has to say it wasn't a review, it was a "first look" video.



I understand, I just question the validity of "first look" videos with complex products that have a learning curve. And John, if it deters people from the product it doesn't matter whether it demands anything from the community. If you disagree with that, fine, but I stand by my opinions that without knowledge of the library's design, it frequently does more harm than good. And my analogy is apt IMHO. There are things of value in any endeavor that can be mastered quickly and there are ones that take more time and work.

And now I will bow out as I have no need to have the last word.


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## fretti (Jun 12, 2018)

Sadly, everybody with a little success and achievements in his/her life seems to get bs like this:


Imo: you don't have to like everybody, but at least respect them for whom they are and what they've done (doesn't mean that critisims or discussions aren't allowed, but not personal insults...).


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## axb312 (Jun 12, 2018)

We're with you Daniel. Cheers.

Personally, I'd rather have more forum members like Daniel on here than Devs because I believe he actually does more for fellow musicians by letting us know which libraries and sounds are actually worth our interest and hard earned money. Library developers will mostly keep producing libraries anyway. People like Daniel, who do this for free, don't have to keep at it.

If a Dev would like to be a part of the conversation first hand and really take in the feedback of users and people generally interested in their libraries, they should consider this is a privilege - and this shouldn't be something we need to work for...


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## Mike Greene (Jun 12, 2018)

Confuzzly said:


> Genuine question... Are there any moderators on this forum anymore?
> 
> The only person I see doing any moderation these days is Mike, and while I appreciate the job he has done thus far, being the "Dorm RA" shouldn't fall under the responsibility of an admin of a website this large. That is a moderators job. An administrators job on a site this size should be mostly just that... administration. Mostly behind the scenes business.
> 
> ...


There are two other moderators (Nick Batzdorf and Craig Sharmat), who help out, although for the most part, the forum self-moderates. On most reported posts, for instance, we'll decide (or rather, one of us will decide) _"This will work itself out on its own. No need for us to step in"_ and 9 times out 10, that's exactly what happens. It's a very mature and sophisticated membership here.

There's very little day to day moderating necessary, so the three of us are probably enough. I might add more at some point, but that's been tricky in the past, because the temptation to step in quickly is often the wrong move (classic rookie mistake), and we'll then get the inevitable _"How come Xxx's post got deleted?!?!?" _thread with ensuing drama. It's a nightmare when that happens. That happened the very first week I took over this forum, in fact, and I had to clean up the mess, which took days. The person who deleted the thread is no longer a mod here and I actually believe we have _less_ work now with just Nick, Craig and me handling things.

My problem isn't the day to stuff, it's the bigger dramas like this one. These are situations where there is no decision that everyone will agree is the "right" decision, so it has to be me who takes responsibility for these. Add to the mix the fact that Daniel (or Mike Verta or Samy, from two other recent dramas) have very large followings, and things get way messier. There's not much that Craig or Nick could do to help out with that.

There's also been a lot of behind the scenes politics to deal with this last couple months where I have to navigate around people's egos and feelings.

On the bright side, the first nine months were pretty easy, so I think this last two months is just an anomaly.

With all that said, I do think you're right that I should get more help, though. I'm still deciding/experimenting for myself exactly how the forum should be run and what the actual "rules" should be, so until I get that squared away, we're runnin' lean and mean.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 12, 2018)

fretti said:


> Sadly, everybody with a little success and achievements in his/her life seems to get bs like this:



The trouble is in an online population of millions you wind up with a high probability of one or two low-effort trolls ruining your day...unless you take the approach of no tolerance to abuse - report and move on (and block if you want to). If someone has a serious point to make, then that's one thing. Low and common abuse, get rid of it or in this case tell YouTube to get rid of it.


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## John Busby (Jun 12, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> users are too lazy to take time to read the manual, have a properly spec'd machine, and actually learn how to use the VI.


i guess i'm lazy then when i loaded up HW woods and most of what i heard were dull lifeless shrills. maybe i should have read the manual more?


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## rJames (Jun 12, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> It's a very mature and sophisticated membership here.
> 
> I'm still deciding/experimenting for myself exactly how the forum should be run and what the actual "rules" should be, so until I get that squared away, we're runnin' lean and mean.



BTW anyone here know what a "Wisdom Warrior," is? Or is that handled in a different post?


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## kitekrazy (Jun 12, 2018)

redlester said:


> I can assure you, based on my membership of another internet forum related to my football club of choice, VI Control is no different to anywhere else in these respects!
> 
> Regarding two fingered swipes, I think Christian dealt with that one in his recent vlog.



Funny thing about sports forums is when a team is doing bad members like to attack each other.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 12, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> My only problem with Daniel's approach, and because I worked for EW I was too harsh in expressing it, is that he approaches all new libraries in an* "instant gratification"* way, open it up, play it and see what happens*.* And they are not all designed for that,. Some require substantial knowledge and time to use them well. So I think that actually performs a _disservice_ to the community at times, but I know that others disagree and I have come to respect that.
> 
> I will only make the comparison that I can easily sit down and sight read Satie and the music will sound lovely. I cannot sit down and instantly sight read Ravel but that does not make the music any less lovely when mastered, it just takes a lot more work.
> 
> But I no longer have any personal animus to Daniel and stay or go, I wish him the best.



Unfortunately that is also a marketing gimmick.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 12, 2018)

rJames said:


> BTW anyone here know what a "Wisdom Warrior," is? Or is that handled in a different post?


Is that from the Facebook page? If so, then yeah, that's been a reeeeally tricky one for me to figure out what to do. Still not sure how to handle it.


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## rJames (Jun 12, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Is that from the Facebook page? If so, then yeah, that's been a reeeeally tricky one for me to figure out what to do. Still not sure how to handle it.


No. That's just me throwing a wrench into the works... wondering about our friend. Sorry to take your time especially after reading in this thread how much of it you spend here. Maybe another moderator can handle it for you. Craig?


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## kitekrazy (Jun 12, 2018)

If anyone ever thinks of going into development you should develop a thick skin. Sometimes that is the only way to turn enemies into friends. (sometimes)


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## kitekrazy (Jun 12, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Imo, more aggressive moderation is the answer to VI-Controls problems. Assholes (not naming names) are attracted to forums. Moderators should be constantly pushing back!



The best way to kill a forum.


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## lokotus (Jun 12, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> I understand, I just question the validity of "first look" videos with complex products that have a learning curve. And John, if it deters people from the product it doesn't matter whether it demands anything from the community. If you disagree with that, fine, but I stand by my opinions that without knowledge of the library's design, it frequently does more harm than good. And my analogy is apt IMHO. There are things of value in any endeavor that can be mastered quickly and there are ones that take more time and work.
> 
> And now I will bow out as I have no need to have the last word.



I remember being banned from ew forum when gathering up points of concern about the older version of the play engine vs kontakt. 
Call it what you want in this case: first look, review. Were are not hackers stealing software, doing illegal things etc. 
We (in this case Daniel) just talk with our own "professional" opinion about products etc... Sometimes (too) emotional, sometimes not. 
Nevertheless, users critique can and should be answered by the developer / seller. But to just ban people out of forums (or certain topics) is just nuts, if there was no obvious intention of doing harm (like hackers) to a product line / company but just writing down or doing some movie clips with an opinion about a product. Hope it makes sense. 

Cheers, lokotus


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## J-M (Jun 12, 2018)

I really like this forum and I've avoided these threads mostly because I've had nothing constructive to say. But I say this, @Daniel James: I don't pretend to know what you're going through in your life at the moment and frankly, it's none of my, or anyone else's business. But if you're in a bad place, please talk to people who support you and care about you. Cheers!


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## alexd (Jun 12, 2018)

So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!


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## rottoy (Jun 12, 2018)

alexd said:


> So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!


That's basically the gist of the feather that turned into a monstruous chicken.
He wasn't even angry, just a bit disappointed.


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## fretti (Jun 12, 2018)

alexd said:


> So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!


Not angry, but he expressed his opinion (speaking for many others probably) that it was not what you would expect by the name Hans Zimmer Strings + *a lot* of other things (pro and con). But that was mostly what led to the thing of people questioning him and his integrity as a reviewer, wich then led to ~140 pages on this forum of discussion.
Don't want to start this whole thing here again though...if you have enough time I suggest watching the 2 videos on twitch/YT (~8:30h) and reading the threads about the topics on this forum


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## MatFluor (Jun 12, 2018)

alexd said:


> So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!



In very short words about the HZS thing:
- It was a long "first look video", like downloaded, opened, let's go
- He voiced that he expects Hans Zimmer Strings to sound different then what they did. Meaning "Grand, Epic, Big" but they are "Delicate, wide, deep" (my wording)
- Disappointment because of the obvious ambiguity of what "Hans Zimmer Strings" should be. Some people think "Pirates of the Carribean" - and the strings are not geard explicitly in that direction
- He pointed out errors, and due to the nature of the first look video, he explored them in detail.

After that, in the respective Forum thread here, things got out of hand for various reasons.

@Daniel James as a swiss military specialist officer for the psychological service - if you experience such phases, as many people already said, seek professional help. No shame in that at all. I won't say again what other said here, so yeah. Get well buddy.


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## jamwerks (Jun 12, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> The best way to kill a forum.


Seems like GearSluts has pretty heavy moderation and it seems to be flourishing. Get rid of the whinny jerks, and a lot more real musicians would post here.


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## Lex (Jun 12, 2018)

I still honestly can't understand why one semi-happy customer and their private yt video ended up as such big deal for Spitfire?


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## Mike Greene (Jun 12, 2018)

Ugh. Someone is going to read this section of the thread and start thinking, _"Wait, so Daniel got banned because he posted a couple negative videos about Spitfire?"_ (I've been on forums long enough so I can _guarantee_ there is at least one person who has come to that conclusion.)

Just so we're all on the same page, Daniel's two videos were fine. And it's still fine if he posts similar videos again. The videos, positive or negative, were not the problem. I need to be really clear about that: *The videos were not the problem.* I need to make that clear because some people (robgb, for instance) seem to have this idea that critical comments or reviews are no longer allowed. That's completely incorrect.

The problem was not the videos. The problem was the endless fighting with people afterwards. Post after post after post after post. The topic for Daniel's fighting was always Spitfire, eventually devolving into what gave me the impression that Spitfire was becoming his mission. I admit I could be wrong, but when it go the point where he got into a heated debate about how Labs amounts to illegal predatory business practices, I felt this was indicative of a deeper problem and not good for the forum. I honestly don't see how anyone could feel I should have let that keep going.

In any event, I'll clarify one more time: Product criticism = fine. Endless arguing = not fine.


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## Luke W (Jun 12, 2018)

I think Mike has every right to decide the spirit of the forum he'd like to run, then moderate as needed to maintain that spirit. If some feel stifled, they'll go elsewhere. Plenty of places to argue on the internet. Sounds like he doesn't want discussions to devolve into endless bickering or personal attacks, but still wants to encourage open, critical discussions of sample libraries. Tough balance to maintain, as critical discussions easily catch fire with "No, YOU'RE stupid!" I'm personally all for Mike yanking posts and telling people to knock it off. If a thread becomes a twenty page dumpster fire, close the comments down. If he gets heavy handed and only protects advertisers or kills valuable discussions (which he has the right to do so if he chooses) then I'd probably stop logging on. But his comments thus far lead me to think he's seeking to create a community moderated in a way I personally find inviting.


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## Saxer (Jun 12, 2018)

I'm seriously very sorry Daniel James feels bad about all the comments he gets that hurt him. On the other hand he made himself a public person and shouts out his opinion in a personal way too, obviously not reflecting he also could be hurting others by doing this. Communication is a boomerang. It has nothing to do if I share his opinion (sometimes I do, sometimes not) or if I like him (I do, often spent hours with his entertaining videos). It's not about being on ones side or who was right or wrong. It's nothing about facts at all. It's all about the way how to communicate. Every bad feeling happening here is home made. If you want to feel better: treat other people the way you would be treated too.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 12, 2018)

johnbusbymusic said:


> i guess i'm lazy then when i loaded up HW woods and most of what i heard were dull lifeless shrills. maybe i should have read the manual more?



Absolutely. There's a lot good about Hollywood Woodwinds, and they are still used by paid composers today (including me, who barely makes the designation "paid" btw lol!). I should mention, having that extra microphone that Diamond gives you is especially awesome.

When it comes to woodwind ensemble mockups, I use Hollywood Winds as default (for solo wws I use Chris Hein). But I'm one of those people whom prefer dry libraries...I don't even use my super fun Met Ark 1 for mockups that often (despite still being in the honeymoon phase), both the Hollywood and Chris Hein series are far more malleable.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 12, 2018)

While I have great sympathy for Daniel's feelings, I'm glad that he's getting a break from painful arguments. As dramatic as they may have become, they're a distraction from what's really important. We each have searched at some point for our purpose in life, and I seriously doubt product debates are it for any of us. This can be an opportunity to get centered and reconnect with our primary focus—not just for Daniel, but for each of us.

I believe we each have an intrinsic worth, and that goes for Daniel, Mike, Christian, Paul, and Hans. In fact, it goes for everyone here. I may not agree with all of you all the time, but I know you are valuable as human beings.

@Daniel James, I see your value. Please don't leave this world before your time. Go within. See your value too. The judgments of others can't affect our intrinsic worth, only our perception of it.

Best,

Geoff


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## Lex (Jun 12, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Just so we're all on the same page, Daniel's two videos were fine. And it's still fine if he posts similar videos again. The videos, positive or negative, were not the problem. I need to be really clear about that: *The videos were not the problem.* I need to make that clear because some people (robgb, for instance) seem to have this idea that critical comments or reviews are no longer allowed. That's completely incorrect.
> 
> The problem was not the videos. The problem was the endless fighting with people afterwards. Post after post after post after post. The topic for Daniel's fighting was always Spitfire, eventually devolving into what gave me the impression that Spitfire was becoming his mission. I admit I could be wrong, but when it go the point where he got into a heated debate about how Labs amounts to illegal predatory business practices, I felt this was indicative of a deeper problem and not good for the forum. I honestly don't see how anyone could feel I should have let that keep going.
> 
> In any event, I'll clarify one more time: Product criticism = fine. Endless arguing = not fine.



Sorry Mike, but if there was no negative reaction to the VIDEOS , Daniel wouldn't have who to "fight", no?

alex


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## germancomponist (Jun 12, 2018)

Lex said:


> Sorry Mike, but if there was no negative reaction to the VIDEOS , Daniel wouldn't have who to "fight", no?
> 
> alex


Who came first? The chicken or the egg? Emotions can not be grounded in logic. As I suggested before: Relax .... !


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## Grizzlymv (Jun 12, 2018)

Lex said:


> Sorry Mike, but if there was no negative reaction to the VIDEOS , Daniel wouldn't have who to "fight", no?
> 
> alex


Well. That applies on both side. Reactions to Daniel's video, reaction to reactions on Daniel's video... At some point you have to learn when you've said all you had to say. And you also have to learn to accept critics when you expose yourself publicly, no matter how much efforts you've put in the work you've done. One thing that will always exist is that you can't please everyone. And that's fine. As long as the debate is civilised and respectful and constructive. Which is something a few people outside of the main antogonist also have to learn. I used to love that forum. But that whole melodrama of the past few weeks turned me off big time. It's kind of depressing coming here nowadays rather than being inspiring. 

Hopefully everyone will be able to move on, including the main actors in these late dramas, and make this place what it used to be again. A great resourceful place with great minds helping each other's. Its not just the job of moderators. It's up to each and everyone of us to ensure we get there.


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## Kyle Preston (Jun 12, 2018)

In defense of DJ, it seems like he’s being singled out precisely _because_ he has an audience. I’ve read so much worse from people on this forum (sometimes directed at me) than anything Daniel said in the charity thread. I wish he wouldn’t present his opinion as business fact (that’s how it reads anyway), but I think his points are inventive and honest - and at the very least, worth considering as _potential_ consequences to the new SF labs, even if it is a cynical perspective. None but the parties involved have all the details and I wish some of us on the forum would stop reacting with little to no information and just process what’s happening, or just ignore it. That’s really the issue here. I wish we could bond over our uncertainty and not be so goddamn sure of everything - but that continues to be my wish.

On top of it, SF didn’t ask to ‘muzzle’ him. I applaud you Mike for your transparency in sharing those details and your thought process - I realize you’re doing what you think is best and maybe limiting what DJ is allowed to discuss around here _is_ the only solution to less drama (at least on _this_ topic). But it doesn’t add more nuance to the discussion, it singles out and silences one perspective. And I’m sure you’re taking some heat for it. It’s a privately-owned forum but it is a _forum_. And it feels like a bad precedent to set, restricting topics from specific individuals (without applying that to _all_ members), especially with free speech under fire in so many other pockets online. If no one valued DJs perspective, than I doubt his opinions would attract so much controversy. That and he keeps driving traffic here from his Facebook and Twitter, which does create an echo chamber, or it did in previous threads.

Anyway, I’m not offering solutions, I don’t have enough information to do that. But if you need someone to talk to DJ (or anyone), I’m here. I’ve dealt with mental health shit most of my life, I know in my bones that anxiety and depression are motherfuckers. You’ve done a lot of good for a lot of people man, I hope you know that .

Kumbaya or whatever.


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## Voider (Jun 12, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> I wish he wouldn’t present his opinion as business fact



You mean here where he said it's just his opinion?



Daniel James said:


> The things I dislike, and I talk about, are my opinions



Or here?



Daniel James said:


> And I obviously I don't work there so anything I say will be how things could potentially go, not how they have written down in plan.



Or here:



Daniel James said:


> This is how LABS now looks to be set up to me.



Notice the "_how it looks to be set up to me_", a pretty clear hint that we're reading just a personal opinion, not a fact.

Followed by:



Daniel James said:


> *And sure it may never go that way*, but if Usian Bolt steps up to the blocks and gets into starting position, you expect him to start running sometime soon. And while LABS might not be 'running' yet, its boots are laced and its waiting for the starter pistol.



I really don't get why it's so hard for people to correctly reproduce statements and not to spread misinformations.


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## robgb (Jun 12, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> I need to make that clear because some people (robgb, for instance) seem to have this idea that critical comments or reviews are no longer allowed. That's completely incorrect.


Thank you for clearing that up for me.


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## robgb (Jun 12, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> I wish we could bond over our uncertainty and not be so goddamn sure of everything.


This, I'm afraid, is the nature of the world these days.


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## Voider (Jun 12, 2018)

That being said, Daniel didn't start the drama or continued it. I've read a few posts here from people who apparently didn't follow the whole thing and act like it's 50:50 both sides fault. No, it's not. Most of the time other people started to quote and attack Daniel to start a discussion and he was simply only replying, or they made random stupid jokes about the HZS debate / DJ where he came across and just asked them to stop to be like that because we wouldn't need more hate and drama here after that whole thing was positively resolved.

Everything else in this charity thing was just an idea, nothing more. Daniel stated many times it's just a view on a possible trend that he'd like to talk about and that we should be able and allowed to discuss about, which I completely agree with. No one is gonna be harmed if we just talk about "if" cases, even if it's an unpopular one.

That's very simple. We do discuss things here every day, good and bad ones. But then Garry needed to actually start a new thread quoting Daniel, he came back and bumped the thread after just 4 hours without a reply from DJ with a provocative "Still no reply?" post like DJ wouldn't be a busy professional who probably takes work and life a bit more important than immediately responding to a forum post. Followed by personal attacks from Garry, a very rude sarcastic writing style and blame on DJ for statements he never made.

Wanna have a little taste?

DJ in the original thread before:



Daniel James said:


> As for the conspiracy comments....we will see. Like I said they may not be planning hurting smaller devs but if LABS keeps growing and adding things that compete with the smaller devs then they will be in direct 'competition' to which Spitfire is undercutting by offering for free, which comes carefully close to qualifying for Predatory Pricing (read the wiki to save me having to drag it all up over and over)



Pretty clear point, they may not be planning that, but it simply could happen as a sideeffect if labs grows and becomes larger in content.

Garrys response:



Garry said:


> The evidence you claim is that LABS used to be for charity, and now it's not, therefore, QED - IT'S A CONSPIRACY TO UNDERMINE SMALL DEVELOPERS! I mean really, that's the best you've got? That is pure inference on your part, and baseless speculation; it barely amounts to an argument.



- Still claiming that DJ would say that it would be Spitfires intention to underminde small developers on purpose
- Finally spotting that it's just a speculation like DJ stated before like 100 times, but making it look like DJ would have not said that by highlighting the obvious this way.

Then he instantly started to move off topic with attacking Daniel instead of talking about the subject:



Garry said:


> As I pointed out, as a small developer yourself, you have a dog in this fight - there is cause for you jumping to such inference. Reading this situation as an impartial observer (I laid out my impartiality credentials in the first post - you can't dismiss me of simply being malicious towards you, as I've completely supported you up to now), then it is YOU Daniel who looks nefarious in this situation.



Look at this, same post still:



Garry said:


> This seems to reveal the true nature of your objections. Jealousy, pure and simple. As a developer who, by your own admission, is not in Spitfire's league, you look over the fence with your green eyes of envy at what they have, and it colours your perception.



Finished by this sentence:



Garry said:


> It doesn't matter to me, one way or the other: I find it mildly perplexing why people feel the need to instantly criticise Spitfire, and assume ill motives where there is no reason to do so.



DJ has made like tons of absolutely positive reviews and statements about Spitfire products, and only two not so positive things in the close past, which were about Hans Zimmer Strings and the Labs, if you can count HZS even in since it was misinterpreted a lot. But why keep that in mind if you can just act like someone does "instantly criticise Spitfire" by default, everywhere, anytime. If you don't have good arguments, just create your own reality. Let's just ignore that DJ's relation between positive and negative things said about Spitfire is like 20:2

Garrys post was - sorry to say so - full of shit, twisted "facts", personal attacks and false accusings . And Garrys initial postings pretty much show off that he was aiming for bad blood from the very beginning:



Garry said:


> Ok - thread opened in the Drama Zone here to discuss your assertion regarding Spitfire's charity donations, as you proposed @Daniel James. Look forward to your reply there. Challenge accepted. Bring popcorn!





Garry said:


> I think this was a good idea from Daniel, rather than derail an existing thread. However, it's awfully quiet down there! No reply from Daniel as yet... Does he fear to tread... into... the Drama Zone!



If you ask me, if anyone here should get muzzled then Garry. Mods should watch out for people who start wars on purpose and who are out for bad blood. This is the source of the problem. Not normal users like DJ simply getting dragged into fights by trolls like Garry, who let out their frustration at the cost of others.


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## Kyle Preston (Jun 12, 2018)

Voider said:


> I really don't get why it's so hard for people to correctly reproduce statements and not to spread misinformations.



It's not, when you don't overlook statements that don't support your opinion. 



Daniel James said:


> its their gateway drug to Spitfire.



Or this one


Daniel James said:


> I am happy to be proven wrong but I have been around business all my life and I know a business strategy when I see one.



Or this one


Daniel James said:


> LABS now exists purely to hook customers into the Spitfire eco system



Or this one


Daniel James said:


> (see gateway drug. They are not doing it 'for the fun of it' they are doing it to get people into the Spitfire eco system). Like I said given all the info we have now, they absolutely are heading in that direction.




He might be right about all of this btw, we should value that skepticism. And I think trusting businesses to be a reliable catalyst for social change is naive. But his statements contradict his _this is just my opinion_ followups. It's like a less-extreme example of how Glenn Beck used to talk about Obama - he'd accuse him of having "a deep-seated hatred for white people" and then defend it as mere "opinion" or "asking questions". 

Anyway, I'm not gonna keep dissecting the dude's statements, they're there for everyone to see and read for themselves. I'm glad he shares his opinions around here, even when I don't agree. Confirmation bias and blind nitpicking started this drama anyway. 



Voider said:


> I've read a few posts here from people who apparently didn't follow the whole thing and act like it's 50:50 both sides fault. No, it's not.



I totally agree with you. Like I said, I think DJ is being singled out _because_ he has an audience.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 12, 2018)

Voider said:


> Kyle Preston said:
> 
> 
> > I wish he wouldn’t present his opinion as business fact
> ...


Voider, I think you're missing the point. It's not whether Daniel is saying _definitively_ that Spitfire is trying to put other developers out of business. The damage is already done by just by putting the thought into people's heads. Sort of like saying, _"I can't say for sure that Paul beats his wife, so this is just my opinion, but here's why I'm pretty sure he does."_ 

Look, I'm going to spell this out for you as best as I can. Paul and Christian have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to charity through Spitfire. They're justifiably very proud of that. Then they decided to donate an even _larger_ amount by restructuring their charity formula. And then, to take it a step further and make things cool for _us_, they decided to make Labs free. Sounds to me like win, win, and win.

They were hoping to make a celebration out of this. After all, what could possibly be controversial about charity and free stuff? These guys work hard, so this was their chance to celebrate a good thing and bask in the sun. This was supposed to be a happy event.

Except ... someone shit all over their party. To your point, it doesn't matter whether Daniel says LABS is _definitively_ illegal and unethical, a turd in the punchbowl is still a turd in the punchbowl. Why do that? Seriously, why? Is it really that important to have a discussion on the ethics of a company giving away free products, right in the middle of what they thought was going to be their celebration? And then _keep_ fighting that battle?

I'm all for freedom of speech, but there are responsibilities that go with that. On this forum, consider it a "rule" that one of those responsibilities is that you need to be aware of how your words are affecting other people.


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## Garry (Jun 12, 2018)

@Voider - I'm going to answer you once, and then drop it without further reply (I doubt you'll do the same, but therein lies all the advantages and the disadvantages of free speech). 

I have no wish to rehash this debate. People are adults here, they can read the discussion for themselves, and reach their own conclusions. They don't need someone to selectively quote mine, because it makes your inflammatory cherry-picking all too obvious.

As to your jumping to Daniel's defence, feel free to do so, but I wish instead, you would take a more adult view of the broader situation. The impact of the discussion on Daniel was disturbing, to me and I'm sure to others. It was good to see the community rally around and offer him support. Your perpetuation of the dispute, despite @Mike Greene's multiple attempts to calm the situation, puts your need for salacious and incendiary posts above those of Daniel's well being. I hope you take note of the potential seriousness of the current situation, and instead of fanning the flames and ignoring the potential consequences that exacerbating the situation may have for Daniel, you will instead take a step back, and aim your contributions truly in his best interests, and realise that the more compassionate thing to do is to allow this to settle. This is what I'm about to resume doing now.


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## robgb (Jun 12, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> It's not, when you don't overlook statements that don't support your opinion.


Regarding Daniel's "gateway drug" comment, if you look at Henson's video about this kerfuffle, he shows excerpts of a UI concept video that was made for their designers. In that video is a screen that looks as if it was meant to be edited out, because it plays for only a split-second, but shows a list of "Mindful Considerations" for LABS:

Limit Use of English
Limit Jargon (Tech and Music Theory)
Universal Access - Kids, Girls, Poorly Sighted
Users will spend hours using our stuff

Now maybe that last line is a warning about user fatigue in the design or some such, but it does lend credence to Daniel's remark. And I point this out not to start an argument (this whole thing has been beaten to death, yet here we continue), but to point out that Daniel's ideas aren't necessarily just random thoughts he's pulling out of his ass and perhaps he should be given a bit of a break and not be considered some kind of boogie man.

As for Spitfire, I think that list is something to admire and I do appreciate what they're attempting to do. I get so tired of the "club" atmosphere surrounding music and music theory and am frankly glad that they hope to open music up to people who haven't necessarily had the "requisite education" that some members of the club seem to think they need.

So even if LABS _is_ meant to be a gateway drug, I see no problem with that considering everything else on that list.


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## Sean J (Jun 12, 2018)

Hmm... thread title looks interesting. Glances at OP, Mike, & Daniel's posts.

*slowly backs away*


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## Voider (Jun 12, 2018)

> Its their gateway drug to Spitfire.



That's actually a fact and not even a negative statement. The Labs products are taster, like the little perfume you get for free when you go shopping, in hope that you come back and purchase the big version of it. That's what tasters are for.



> I am happy to be proven wrong but I have been around business all my life and I know a business strategy when I see one.



So how can he claim it to be a fact if he would be happy to be proven wrong? Facts are facts. The last part explaining where his confidence comes from doesn't negate the initial part leaving room for other possibilities.



Mike Greene said:


> The damage is already done by just by putting the thought into people's heads. Sort of like saying, _"I can't say for sure that Paul beats his wife, so this is just my opinion, but here's why I'm pretty sure he does."_



Afaik Daniel never said he is pretty sure about that Spitfire wants to hurt smaller developers. He said the tasters are made for catching peoples interest for Spitfire products, that was a second topic apart from the other one with the smaller companies. I quoted DJ above where he wrote "They may not be planning to hurt smaller developers" - it was all about the potential side effect. A concern about the future, if it grows. Anyway, I absolutely can understand that you as admin and friend of all parties are caught in the middle, and I didn't mean to judge your decision. I simply didn't agree with that Daniel would've stated his opinion as a fact only.

@Mike Greene I edited this part of my post to make my point more clear, just that you know 



Garry said:


> People are adults here, they can read the discussion for themselves, and reach their own conclusions. They don't need someone to selectively quote mine, because it makes your inflammatory cherry-picking all too obvious.



Right, they don't need me. I still can choose for myself to discuss your asshole-behaviour if I want, and so did I. You gotta deal with it. And this is another frantic try from you to make content look like another, because that post you're complaining about was mainly about you and how people of your kind harm forums, not about DJ nor this debate.

I'm not answering to the rest of your post because you're not worth anymore of my time than that.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 12, 2018)

*** Thread is no longer open for comment ***


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 13, 2018)

Does anyone still have time to write, arrange, orchestrate music after all this? 

Blame aside, isn't this _*over*_ yet?


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## Scrianinoff (Jun 13, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Does anyone still have time to write, arrange, orchestrate music after all this?
> 
> Blame aside, isn't this _*over*_ yet?


It was over, until you posted this, and now it continues because as a result I could not control myself and had to post this  Now let’s all make some music.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 13, 2018)




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## Mike Greene (Jun 13, 2018)

I'm going to close this thread now, and in a shameless act of hypocrisy, _I'm_ going to have the last word. (For people who feel they still haven't yet made their point, this thread is still open.)

There's a lot that I like about running the forum. I get to try out my ideas for how I think the forum should work. I enjoy writing the newsletter. I get to plug Realitone (where Realivox Ladies is currently $100 off!) and then pretend that plug was accidental. There's lots to like about this gig.

There are some things I really don't like, though, and this is one of them. The other recent dramas were bad, and this last two months have been rough, but this one was worse, because it's much more personal. Paul and Christian are my friends. We've met in person, we've had some laughs, and I have tons of respect for them. Daniel James is also my friend. (I hope I can insert the word "still" into that sentence. If not, I hope, "again some day soon" would apply.) We've also met in person, we've had some laughs, and I have tons of respect for him, too.

There's a thread on the the forum right now about how valuable to the forum Evil Dragon and Charlie Clouser are. I started to write a post in that thread sharing my own little stories about them. I didn't post it, though, because as I was typing, I realized I could say similar things about Daniel, who obviously has also been an incredible asset here. (And I think I speak for everyone when I say I hope he will continue.) Maybe I overthink things, but it seemed like it would be a slap in Daniel's face for me to tell glowing stories about Mario and Charlie at the same time as I'm causing him pain. Almost like saying,_"Nyah, nyah, Daniel, you've already been forgotten!"_

I really do need to cut down on the bickering and drama on the forum, but playing judge and jury with friends is the last thing I want to do. It sucks to be in this situation, because one side or the other is going to be very unhappy with whatever I do and I may lose friends because of it. All because during Frederick's fundraiser drama last summer, I stupidly thought, "Hey, _I_ could pull the forum out of this mess!" It never occurred to me at the time that I would eventually be faced with situations like this.

I don't know if what I did was right. I stand by my decision, but I can't help but second guess if there was a better way. The email exchange between Daniel and me was entirely pleasant, and I actually thought that I had somehow managed to thread this needle, but based on what's happened since then, I guess I didn't.

I hope Daniel is reading this, because I'm sorry things worked out the way they did. I really am. Maybe there was a better way, maybe I read things wrong, but I did the best I could. I take responsibility for my decisions and actions, but for what it's worth, these aren't decisions or actions I ever wanted to take. I just wanted to write the damn newsletter and make _"Hey, it looks like Realitone has something cool!"_ jokes.


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