# How to increase the "brassiness" on solo horns/trumpets?



## Trash Panda (Oct 20, 2020)

I am wanting to use the solo French Horn from Nucleus, but am struggling to figure out how to get that rattling "brassy" sound at the higher dynamics. I can hear just the faintest bit of it at the top dynamic layer and highest pitches, but it's nowhere near the ensembles a6 and a12 horn sections.

I imagine this is largely due to the physics of the room it was recorded in, but I'm curious if it's possible via EQ, compression, reverb or an exciter to bring out that glorious brassy rattle from this solo horn sample. I certainly haven't found a process using these that does not cause ear bleed, but I'm likely doing it wrong.

Attached is a recording where I've normalized the volume as best as possible, playing a progression of single notes of C1-C4 on the solo horn, a6 horns and the Jaeger a12 horn sections. All were using the Sustain patch at a static 100% dynamic value with volume adjusted via C11 to have the roughly the same output. This should give a fairly good idea of the brassy characteristic I am probably not describing very well that is absent from the solo horn.

Any kind VI-ers know how to bring out the beast from a fairly tame solo horn?


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## Cathbad (Oct 21, 2020)

The Nucleus solo horn has a small dynamic range. To my ears it's _pp _to _mp._ It seems to be intended for lyrical and melodic lines, and is very effective in that role. It's also good for quiet chords and holding notes.

My best suggestion is to use the Majestic Horn. It has a much larger dynamic range, with some bite at the higher volumes. If you don't already have it, it's a no-brainer at €2.


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## Batrawi (Oct 21, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> I imagine this is largely due to the physics of the room it was recorded in


I think this is largely due to not having recorded this high dynamic for the solo horn in the first place. I don't think there is any way, no matter how good the trickery is, could replicate the actual sound of a true ff/fff dynamics.


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## PeterBaumann (Oct 21, 2020)

Have you tried an exciter? As @Batrawi says though, I'm not sure how close you're going to get if the samples are that far off.


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## artomatic (Oct 21, 2020)

Try adding distortion to mimic _fff._


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## JohnG (Oct 21, 2020)

Well -- honestly not sure what you're missing. The lowest note is really out of the normal range of the FHN; I realise it can play down there and people use that range, but if you want a big BWAAHHH down there, use trombones doubled 8vb with bass trombone(s) and maybe cimbasso.

But back to your question, several ideas:

1. Double with trombone / trumpet (depending on range);
2. Use a different patch and turn up cc1;
3. Follow @artomatic 's idea and either add distortion directly to your track; print it a second time and offset it and add distortion only to the second track; 
4. Add 'stopped' FHN in unison, or straight muted trumpet / trombone depending on range.


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## Gene Pool (Oct 21, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> ...I'm curious if it's possible via EQ, compression, reverb or an exciter to bring out that glorious brassy rattle from this solo horn sample.



You can't bring out what's not there. You're looking for _cuivré_ samples, which is an effect that requires specific notation. The brassy component is not found in typical horn tone. It is added by bringing the horn to a state where the bell of the horn itself vibrates, resulting in the admixture you're talking about. The lowest dynamic it can be achieved is forte, but is more commonly called for in _ff_ or _fff_. It can be achieved throughout the horn's entire range.


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## Meredithmoo25 (Oct 21, 2020)

Hi, professional horn player here, though I would weigh in a bit...

A lot of good points people have been making here. That "brassy" sound (notated _cuivré) _the air pushing the sound of the horn to its absolute limits. You can hear in the sample too: when it gets really loud, the pitch goes off a little and the shape of the sound becomes unsteady and wavers. It's very hard to get that sound on the horn and stay in control. 

The horn, unlike trumpet and trombone, is a conical instrument (it gradually tapers small to larger) and its bell faces backward which is why, in an orchestra, it sounds really warm, mellow, and distant. With a large section (such as 6 or 12 players) when all players are really blowing hard, it's possible to get a very strong and intense brassy sound familiar to a trumpet/trombone, but it is very hard for a solo horn to play with that intensity and volume and have a direct sound (not to mention in real life it's very hard to sustain _fff_ _cuivré _sound for long without a section to support you, especially in the upper register). This is why horn sections in orchestras are always so much larger than the rest of the brass sections and why the general brass section orchestration rule is 2 horns for every trumpet. 

With sample libraries, it is very deceptive, because the way the horn is recorded, it's not very accurate to how a horn would sound if you were hearing it play in front of you. This sample you gave sounds like it was recorded with a dynamic mic very close to the bell, which makes it sound very present and at the fore. But in a real setting, the sound would be coming "from away", bouncing off the wall and ceiling behind the bell and filling the room with its sound, where other brass face their bells right at you and their sound is directional. I am guessing the solo horn sample was recorded for more lyrical stuff and probably had the mic farther away and captured more of the warm tone. 

With that being said (and sorry I kinda drifted a bit). My suggestion would be (without buying a new sample) 

1. Raise the highest frequencies in the EQ while slightly bringing down the low and mid frequencies. This will help bring out the highest overtones (and the horn a lot of overtones in its sound!) and make the tone brighter

2. Double the high stuff you want with a trumpet. I can't see your score but assuming when you mean "high notes" you mean the notes written at the top of the treble staff and above for Horn in F. If you really want to more present then double it with a second horn. You can definitely mix the balance just right so the trumpet is hardly noticeable but will add a more directional and brassy sound. 

3. Hire a real horn player to record it for you


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## Fredeke (Oct 24, 2020)

Try, in this order:
- EQ for less lows, and/or less low-mids
- Use an exciter (that's a kind of distortion that brightens the sound rather than trash it)
- EQ for more highs or high-mids
These is my rule of thumb, not especially for orchestral samples, but for about anyhting.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 30, 2020)

Thank you all for the most excellent information. It is much appreciated!

I have tried out the various EQ/Exciter tricks, which with enough tweaking helps a bit, but the $2 Majestic Horn instrument was perfect with no tweaking needed.

I'm bookmarking this thread to refer to in the future for sure.


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