# What are m.2 SSDs good for?



## FriFlo (Jun 11, 2015)

I think about getting one of those m.2 SSDs ...
What I really don't understand, yet, is what the primary advantage of those is versus a SATA 6GB/s SSDs regarding Kontakt samples. I see two points:
1) How quick samples load
2) How many voices cen be streamed seemlessly.
What ism ore relevant?


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## Lawson. (Jun 11, 2015)

They're both relevant.

I think another point is just for bragging rights. 99% of the time you would never need a 3000MB/s read speed, but it sure is nice to have it anyway!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 11, 2015)

It all depends on what you're doing with them. Many people don't use enough simultaneous voices to notice #2 so they only notice #1. I don't care about #1 since everything stays loaded in VEP so I only care about #2.


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## chimuelo (Jun 11, 2015)

Basically achieve RAID 0 speeds on a single low power tiny dlevice embedded onto a motherboard.
2) Definately enhances polyphony...

But using 2 x RAID 0 SSDs is close.
NVMe SSDs are like having 3 x SSDs @ RAID 0.
Not needed really but I will use 3 of them on a Z170 later this year.

My DAWg's will hunt.....


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## FriFlo (Jun 11, 2015)

Really? I thought with the SATA 6 Gb/s SSDs Jbod is the way to go?
Well, the thing is, loading time is not so relevant to me, as I use a 3 PC Template (1 master and 2 slaves) and loading Vienna Ensembloe once or twice a day, I won't care so much, if my coffe break is 5 minutes longer or shorter! 
So, I thought about what would make sense to put on that m.2. My latest motherboard supports one (Asrock X99 Extreme 6).
On my PC one generation older I did easily reach voice limits with lot's of runs going on in Berlin Strings and Berlin WW at the same time. So I thought, I were to put one or both of these on an m.2 SSD, I could run both of them on the new main PC without those restrictions?


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## jamwerks (Jun 11, 2015)

Wouldn't that be the best place to install the OS?


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## FriFlo (Jun 11, 2015)

Why?
For the computer to boot quicker? No, that is not worth it to me.
What else would be dramtically smoother/quicker?


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## jamwerks (Jun 11, 2015)

I'm about to buy a new X99 slave machine, and have read here(?) or elsewhere that having OS and app on M.2 or even normal ssd's helps overall performance. I'm thinking also that the libraries that get used the most is our mixes should logically find their way to the M.2, to better benefit overall performance.


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## FriFlo (Jun 11, 2015)

I already got my OS on a SATA3 SSD. Surely makes things slicker! But I am not sure, if I need such a powerful one for the OS. 500Gb is the biggest available without spending a fortune. I use a Tb SSD for the OS and also save the projects I am working on there. I also put some Kontakt libraies there (the orchestral ibraries on separate ones).
I am not sure what performance it would boost oather than project loading and VSTi loading by a little bit. But I am interested, if that is worth it!


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## chimuelo (Jun 11, 2015)

I beg to differ.

Having a faster storage device for the Apps + OS has been a sweet experience for me.
While the OS may be cached in RAM like our sample libraries, VSTi's need math from the CPU which is cyclical to the OS+Apps storage device.

I noticed when I went from a Raptor HDD to an SSD a big difference in smoothness of the applications and especially in the area of MIDI automation from external gear as opposed to an LFO in the Application doing a filter sweep.

While an SSD is more than plenty for an OS+Apps some apps really like the M.2 speeds which I have noticed in Omnisphere 2 and Bidule.

Doubt that we notice the difference between the PCI-e 2X speed M.2's and the 4X Samsungs, but my OS is tied to a Plextor M6e, and Omnisphere 2 and Kontakt are on a Samsung SM951, and there's quite a difference, but as mentioned above, not necessary unless you want real time for everything you do.

A true craftsmen can use a crappy Vaughn Hammer and do the same quality of work a Craftsmen 24" Claw can do.
The difference is basic woodwork versus steel and concrete construction.

The tweaks in Windows 7 boot times are sped up nicely by an M.2 as well, but that's not the only benefit.
Windows 8.1 tweaked for audio smokes on the new OS and M.2s as it was optimized for that purpose.

Plain old recording of a track then bouncing or overdubbing MIDI while listening is all guys really need IMHO.
SSDs low latency and access times are plenty for that work.

M.2s are just the cutting edge of real time work, and low energy using smaller designs is a huge benefit for guys dragging racks of gear around.


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## rgames (Jun 11, 2015)

NOTE: there are M.2 SATA drives and M.2 PCIe drives. The PCIe drives are the ones with the big performance boost. M.2 SATA drives are just a more compact form of regular SATA SSD. If you take apart a regular SATA SSD you'll see a lot of empty space inside.

HOWEVER: I have found that the SanDisk A110 M.2 PCIe drive causes HUGE DPC Latency spikes when used as an OS drive on my HP zBook laptop. I don't know if the same is true on desktop systems or if it's limited to that particular drive - I tried to find measurements on desktops but can't find any.

However, the problem went all the way up the chain at HP tech support and they're now working with Intel on trying to figure it out. I think it has to do with the PCIe sleep states but can't be sure just yet.

So beware...

rgames


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## FriFlo (Jun 11, 2015)

Thanks, Richard. I did realize that, though and ordered the Samsung SM951. I also saw your problem with the laptop on the other thread. I think I will go with libraries on the m.2 and leave the OS on a conventinal SSD (Samsung EVO 850).


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## chimuelo (Jun 11, 2015)

You're going to love the Samsung.
Just make sure it's not an OEM.
You can read about the various differences in model #'s and match it
To the verson benched at legit reviews or SSD review site.

At computex the NVMe versions are showing up everywhere.
Looks like SATA Express didn't win even though Asus and Intel
Have been forcing it on everyone.

ASRock and Samsung won......... :lol:


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## fraz (Aug 30, 2017)

Hi,

I know this is an old post but it's so relevant or will be.

I've got several motherboards / processors from AMD to Intel - One MOBO has PCI-e GEN 2 M.2 @ x4 - How would this be if PCI-e GEN 3 nvme SSD was used?

Max speed is supposed to be up to 20 Gb/s @ x4

There is also possibility of installing nvme into PCI-e slot @ x 2 - How would you imagine these would be together?
From MOBO manual it looks like all SATA 3 ports will work as well with the exception of using nvme on SATA chipset lanes but I would use PCI-e lanes of the CPU - Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is it still possible to get the quickest speeds if OS was installed on nvme @ x2 with samples being installed on nvme x4? - Any thoughts welcome -

I've learned lots about computer technology but there is a way to go - thanks


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## Publius (Sep 6, 2017)

The thing here is that sata 2 can be a bottleneck with some ssd cards. Some mobos have m2 slots where you can plug one right in. Otherwise you can get a pci-e card that holds an m2 drive. These are both theoretically faster than sata 2. It seems to me that getting a stata m2 card defeats the purpose because of the bottleneck.


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## fraz (Sep 8, 2017)

Publius said:


> The thing here is that sata 2 can be a bottleneck with some ssd cards. Some mobos have m2 slots where you can plug one right in. Otherwise you can get a pci-e card that holds an m2 drive. These are both theoretically faster than sata 2. It seems to me that getting a stata m2 card defeats the purpose because of the bottleneck.



Hi you say SATA 2 - All my mobo's are SATA III - Apart from some 1155 Z77 / 2011 X79

But I catch your drift - SATA III = 6 Gb/s - All nVme drives can max out the g Gb/s connector if it is using the SATA interface.

If the chipset is used, even PCI-e GEN 2, upto 10 Gb/s minimum is achieved or 20 Gb/s on some motherboards but nvme are expensive but maybe a cheaper one could be used.

Some mobo's can use the SATA 6gb/s interface or the chipset PCI-e lanes but if the M.2 is PCI-e GEN 3 then happy days.

An example of a Z97-AR is it has M.2 @ 10 Gb/s via PCI-e GEN 2 via the chipset but if a cheap enough nvme could be sourced it could be worth it or the 1 x SATA express port could be used which is 12 Gb/s via SATA interface

It took me ages to work out what the chipset is and the PCH and the DMI, even now I'm not 100% on it but am more comfortable eg with the 18 I/O of Intel Flexi I/O

Anyway it's nice to find this site which is more music than computers but computers need to be understood to get the most out of them.

Another board was an AMD 990X Gaming Sli by Gigabyte and it actually has 1 x M.2 @ x4 20 Gb/s via the PCI-e 2 interface so via the chipset I presume but still very good. I'll be using an 8350 on this - Intel are better but I couldn't resist !


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## Publius (Sep 8, 2017)

Yup, looks like I got my sata levels mixed up, but you properly interpreted the point I was making. Its important to work the numbers on the appropriate interfaces and storage devices to make rational spending decisions, and looks like I don't have the numbers firmly to mind so I need to be careful what I say. Yes, my computer, and my old mac pro classic had sata 3, the 6 gb/s. I recently got another ssd drive for my pc and I looked at m2 with a pci-e card and just went with a sata ssd. Did I make the right decision? I can't be sure, but my thinking was that having 32 gig of ram, daw stuff would be able to work mostly from ram.

Another point of confusion to me is that some things are measured in gigabits per second and others gigabytes per second. There are conversion formulas available as I don't think its a simple 8-1 ratio. And then there is the speed of usb versus thunderbolt with multiple levels for each and I think multiple socket types for different levels as well. And... there are some issues with windows and motherboards not supporting thunderbolt, so another area regrettably requiring research before purchase.


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## fraz (Sep 8, 2017)

Hello Pubius,

It's great to be here with folks who want to talk and discuss.

I'm not a techy by natural inclination - I built my first PC last year or so and need to be able to learn cable management, liquid cooling etc... anyway

You mentioned something that I don't know much about yet, bits and bytes - At my peril, 1 byte = 8 bits and the list goes on until you get to MB, and GB, Mb and Gb B=Bytes b=bits

You got SSD, I think you did the correct thing - All this tech has driven me nuts, and in attempting to understand it causes stress which in turn causes confusion, which in turn causes "silly questions being asked" with poor wording due to lack of understanding at a point in time.

My understanding is SATA II = 300 Mb/s=Mega bits & mechanical HDD will work around 180-210-250 Mb/s so are a good match for each other. SSD with SATA II will be 300 Mb/s and for some reason is rated @ 300 MB/s [don't ask me why]

SSD with SATA III is a good match for each other and according to all the music techies great results are obtained

Thunderbolt is different on different motherboards TH2 can be 10 Gb/s or 20 Gb/s depending on the board whilst TH3 can be 40 Gb/s - But a UAD Apollo for example is TH2 / mini-display port connector so won't go faster than the connection allows, 20 Gb/s - That's my assumption [I hope it's correct] so having TH3 is great but won't go faster than TH2 with UAD - But having UAD & TH of any description is awesome full stop

SSD's - I got one or two Samsung 840 EVO which are the most preferred by users

Have you used AMD 8350 for a slave computer with VEP by any chance? - or a host computer? - Apparently it can pack some good performance on multi-threaded apps although not as good as i7 4790K - What are your thoughts?


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## Publius (Sep 9, 2017)

It looks like you have a good understanding of a lot of these concepts.

Sorry, I have no experience with amd or vep. I compare cpus using http://www.cpubenchmark.net--I (www.cpubenchmark.net--I) know its not a perfect indicator of performance, but its what's available. Computer theory 101 states that a byte is 8 bits. However, for data transmission there are control characters as well as the raw data, so the two measures do not match 8-1. That is why I use websites that have a calculator to convert one to the other. I suggest two things:
1) note whether a measure is megabits or megabytes. According to wiki, Mb is for megabits and MB is for megabytes.
2) When comparing, take the most commonly used measure and covert the other so they are all the same unit of measure. 

As to thunderbolt, as I said I am only aware that I don't understand all the variations. Since my pc doesn't have it, I have not taken the time to study it yet.


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## fraz (Sep 9, 2017)

Hi,

Yes I've made efforts to attempt to learn what is what and is interesting you mentioned "the data commission"
So according to motherboard manufacturers / data commission or who ever

6 Gb/s = 600 Mb/s

but according to this website https://www.gbmb.org/gbps-to-mbs

6 Gb/s = 750 Mb/s

I'm not at the stage where I've worked through bits and bytes etc....all the way up to terra bytes etc.... but I'll get round to it.

DMI on the Z97 / X99 = 5 GB/S = A huge amount of throughput - And on this I've calculated there is still enough bandwidth.

Questions do crop up such as - Has the computer industry "rigged" or "fixed" the 6 Gb/s to use 600 MB/s ??? and not 750 MB/s?

Either way I've worked out that even on Z97 there is lots of performance with SSD on SATA III 6 Gb/s as well as 10 Gb/s M.2 and or M.2 via PCI-e GEN 3 slot.

Once a certain level of theory is known it's a matter of working through.

With this being VI Control, I assume you have interest in music, whether this is electronic, rock, pop, orchestral, maybe all of this - And your favorite audio interfaces? - 

What are your favourites?


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## Publius (Sep 10, 2017)

I have a motu 1248, it meets my needs. I have no way of comparing it to other units.


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