# Film scoring fee for a new composer?



## TheWillardofOZ (Jul 29, 2012)

I'll start out saying that I am very new to the film scoring world; my only experience has been with the production company I work for, of which I am on salary. 

That said, I have gotten offers lately to score a couple feature films and a short, but I have no idea what to charge. I've talked to composer colleagues and gotten mixed responses as to whether I should charge a percentage or a flat fee.

I don't want to shoot too high and seem unrealistic, but I also don't want to sell myself short.

Any and all advice is very welcome.


----------



## Ed (Jul 29, 2012)

i saw someone post this recently:
http://filmmusic.net/memberarea/ftvmusicsurvey.pdf

Sometimes I feel its not quite right, a little on the low side, but it seems in my experience pretty correct. The televison advertising section is confusing to me since it lists "creative fee" as N/A and then pretty low "Post package" after that, not sure what that means but the rest seems to be good


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jul 29, 2012)

Music budgets for many films are pegged at 3% of gross here in the USA.


----------



## Mike Marino (Jul 29, 2012)

@ Peter: 3% of the gross cost of production for the film?

- Mike


----------



## jeffc (Jul 29, 2012)

I see a lot of people quoting the 3% of budget thing, that must have been written in some book or article somewhere. But that is definitely not realistic on indie films these days. Sure some might pay it. But if you're saying that a 3 mil indie is paying 90k I wouldn't believe you. There's hypothetical and there's reality and the reality isn't too good right now. Indies that might have paid 30-40k a few years back might pay 10k now. I think realistically for a small indie film with no name cast, you'd be lucky to get 5k. Up front for sure. Percentage or back end is worthless. Keep publishing if you can. And hope its a hit. If the film gets a buzz and you scored it, it will be worth it to you many times over. And nobody will ask what you got paid on it. I think worrying about money too much in the beginning can really limit your opportunities to expand your contacts and to just get real experience writing to film. 

Of course there are guys who somehow come in and make a big fee on their first film by whatever chance occurrence - knowing somebody, being in a big band, working for a big name guy.. But to try and make that exception to the rule a model to follow is a bit unrealistic to me. 

Good luck.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 29, 2012)

I have just begun work on my first feature film as composer. I have been paid roughly 2% of the budget of the film.

However, there are a lot of other factors. For example, this money includes everything at my end:

1. Composition
2. Production costs
3. Live recordings
4. Music Preparation
5. Music Pre-mix
6. Engineer/Studio Costs
7. Live artists/Programmers/Producers

In the end, I will make much less than what I make as additional composer and score producer on other projects but its my first major film as composer and this movie was stuck for a few years as the director passed away before he could complete the film.

His wife shot the additional scenes and completed the movie, now set for release in October.


I did try to negotiate a few things in the contract. Make sure, you know what they expect you to deliver in exchange for the money they are offering and remember if you are a busy guy with other projects at hand - Time = Money. So, plan ahead and try to establish a realistic budget for yourself. 


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## BopEuph (Jul 30, 2012)

I just finished reading the Reel World. Jeff Rona and the people he interviewed were pretty clear that the pay is at least 1.5-2% of the film's total budget.


----------



## TheWillardofOZ (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your input!


----------



## Brian Ralston (Jul 30, 2012)

Unfortunately, in today's industry, the fee for most film composing gigs is what YOU are worth. What your name is worth. Not what the skill or product dictates. It is what your experience and reputation dictates, 

As a new composer, you are not worth very much, if anything at all. At least in the eyes of a producer. There are too many folks (with or without talent) dying to work in an industry for this situation to be any different. So how does one get above that? Have good credits to your name. How does one get good credits to their name without much if any experience? For many...it is work for free. Sad but true. This is why the 2-3% of the overall film budget model does not really apply to most indie projects. Most people working on those films do not have the experience or reputation to dictate a higher fee.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Jul 30, 2012)

The Lessons i have learned and try to use...

1) If you give a price and the client does not cringe...then you quoted too low. 

2) I give a range of prices. I say "if you want real musicians and top quality it will cost you upwards of this...if you want me to work in my basement and use maybe one guitar player, I can do it cheaper and will cost you this....so how important is the music and what can you afford?"


----------



## rgames (Jul 30, 2012)

I never understand why these threads pop up - I guess it's because I've spent so much time outside the music biz.

You charge a minimum of whatever you have to charge to make it worth your while. Hopefully, you can get more than that minimum.

We have no idea what is worth your while. It's different for everybody. There's a word for it: market.

Plumbers, electricians, lawyers, engineers, etc - I've never heard a single one ask "What should I charge?" They charge whatever they have to as long as it's more than the minimum to make it worth their while.

It's really quite simple - it's basic business sense.

rgames


----------



## BopEuph (Jul 30, 2012)

rgames @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> I never understand why these threads pop up - I guess it's because I've spent so much time outside the music biz.
> 
> You charge a minimum of whatever you have to charge to make it worth your while. Hopefully, you can get more than that minimum.
> 
> ...



I really like this analogy. Remember, if you go in with a questioning look on your face, they are probably going to get all upset when you quote whatever. They know they can talk you down from there at that point.




Brian Ralston @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> There are too many folks (with or without talent) dying to work in an industry for this situation to be any different. So how does one get above that? Have good credits to your name. How does one get good credits to their name without much if any experience? For many...it is work for free. Sad but true. This is why the 2-3% of the overall film budget model does not really apply to most indie projects. Most people working on those films do not have the experience or reputation to dictate a higher fee.



I would wholly disagree to this. That's like telling musicians that we need to play for free for a while because there are too many kids that are willing to do it for free. 

I don't do free gigs. The thing is, if you let someone get away with a free job, they are going to spend the rest of their days expecting freebees. Yes, kids do play for free, and venues like to bring that up. And I would say the same thing each time: you get what you pay for.

An indie filmmaker has a budget. Some of that budget needs to go to the composer, if that's what they want on the film.

I haven't done any real writing yet, but the business sense is the same across all the jobs, like rgames says.


----------



## Ed (Jul 30, 2012)

Its different though for Plumbers, electricians, engineers etc because there really are accepted normal costs. 

It costs to come out and look at your plumbing, and it costs money for the parts and for labour. The thing in question is either fixed or it isnt. With composing its... not so obvious, especially when you're quite new and there's plenty of people saying they'll do it for free or next to nothing and you have guys trying to screw you over and those who have no idea what it takes to make a track. Its also music so theres residual income which those other industries do not get at all.


----------



## rgames (Jul 30, 2012)

Ed @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> Its different though for Plumbers, electricians, engineers etc because there really are accepted normal costs.


No way!

I've owned homes long enough to say with confidence there's often a 2x - 3x difference in quotes for the same electrical/plumbing work. It's rare that 3 or 4 quotes are within 50% of each other.

My job as the person spending the money is to decide which one is the best value. Can the cheap guy really do the job? Is the expensive guy really doing a much higher quality job, and do I want that level of quality?

Again, that's how markets work.

Same thing with composers. Well, it would be anyway, if we'd quit asking how much we should charge.

Don't ask, tell! You make the rules!

rgames


----------



## midphase (Jul 30, 2012)

I totally agree with Richard on this one.

I will just add this...in order to get what you want, you have to be willing to walk away from the film. It's really quite that simple, if you're desperate, they will smell it right away and know that you're wanting to work on their film so badly that they can talk you down to whatever.

Just try not to over-romanticize the process. Scoring a feature is a lot of hard work, many hours doing things that are fun, and things that are not so much fun. Think about how you're going to feel when the director asks for the 5th rewrite for a cue that you thought you absolutely nailed 4 cues ago; then ask yourself how much that misery is worth for you to go through.


----------



## Ed (Jul 30, 2012)

Well okay, but the differences I pointed out (and others I didnt) still remain. It simply isnt as simple as getting a plumber in to fix a leaky pipe.


----------



## Mike Marino (Jul 30, 2012)

> Think about how you're going to feel when the director asks for the 5th rewrite for a cue that you thought you absolutely nailed 4 cues ago; then ask yourself how much that misery is worth for you to go through.



Nice. That's good stuff, Kays! I've never thought about it like that.

- Mike


----------



## Brian Ralston (Jul 30, 2012)

> I would wholly disagree to this. That's like telling musicians that we need to play for free for a while because there are too many kids that are willing to do it for free.
> 
> I don't do free gigs. The thing is, if you let someone get away with a free job, they are going to spend the rest of their days expecting freebees. Yes, kids do play for free, and venues like to bring that up. And I would say the same thing each time: you get what you pay for.
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter what you believe. You can do your business the way you want and should. Do I think someone should work for free? Personally. No. But that is what many will have to do to get experience that Hollywood will recognize. Why? Let me just say that there are HUGE name composers I am aware of who have recently accepted scoring films FOR FREE. Why? Who knows. But don't think you are competing against no name guys any more for free. There are Oscar caliber guys who are now agreeing to work for free on indie films that should be going to up and coming guys because they simply want to keep working and there is a lot less product being made nowadays. And their past career success has allowed them to be in a financial spot where they can accept a free gig if the material is right. So...the rules of the game continue to change and composers as a whole are doing it to themselves.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 30, 2012)

Brian Ralston @ Tue 31 Jul said:


> > I would wholly disagree to this. That's like telling musicians that we need to play for free for a while because there are too many kids that are willing to do it for free.
> >
> > I don't do free gigs. The thing is, if you let someone get away with a free job, they are going to spend the rest of their days expecting freebees. Yes, kids do play for free, and venues like to bring that up. And I would say the same thing each time: you get what you pay for.
> >
> ...



Do you have any sources on this especially regarding the notion that there is less content being produce in 2012?


----------



## Brian Ralston (Jul 30, 2012)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> Brian Ralston @ Tue 31 Jul said:
> 
> 
> > > I would wholly disagree to this. That's like telling musicians that we need to play for free for a while because there are too many kids that are willing to do it for free.
> ...



You mean, other than knowing the directors of the films I am referring to personally...and being in the industry in Hollywood for over a decade?

I know what I am talking about.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 30, 2012)

Brian Ralston @ Tue 31 Jul said:


> SimonCharlesHanna @ Mon Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Brian Ralston @ Tue 31 Jul said:
> ...



Any examples of indie films with oscar calibre composers and numbers regarding content? 

I am not trying trying to disprove you or disagree - I would just like to research the situation further for my own benefit and understanding.


----------



## jleckie (Jul 30, 2012)

Brian Ralston @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> I know what I am talking about.



Well-then-there you have that i guess....


----------



## TheWillardofOZ (Jul 30, 2012)

> I never understand why these threads pop up - I guess it's because I've spent so much time outside the music biz.
> 
> You charge a minimum of whatever you have to charge to make it worth your while. Hopefully, you can get more than that minimum.
> 
> ...





There are a few reasons why I'm asking. 

1) I have a salary based job, so my minimum is much lower than a lot of peoples. I have the ability to compose for free and it wouldn't hurt me financially at all. The reason I would like to know what the general consensus is, is so that I don't help destroy the market with one more composer giving directors a reason to devalue music. 

2) Although this is as much a business endeavor as those jobs you listed, they just aren't the same. Music is a creative business. Albeit, there are costs for things like live players, sample libraries, etc., but what you're getting paid for ultimately is your creativity...and what is your creativity worth?

As someone who is just starting out, I have no idea what music is worth in the film world. Adding to that, to judge what I'm personally worth from the outset is hugely subjective, and not something that I can give a fair estimate on because I don't know the market yet. 

I do have another question: Does anyone have a flat fee that they quote when being asked to work a new project? I talked with a producer recently and he seemed offended that I brought up a percentage for the music budget. He was very persistent about me just giving him a flat rate without any information from his end (How much music, live vs. sampled, time frame, etc.). I'm probably being taken advantage of, but I'd like to hear input from others. Is this flat rate quote more common than I'm understanding it to be?

-Ryan


----------



## Brian Ralston (Jul 30, 2012)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> Any examples of indie films with oscar calibre composers and numbers regarding content?
> 
> I am not trying trying to disprove you or disagree - I would just like to research the situation further for my own benefit and understanding.



Both films I am referring to are currently in production. One has already shot...the other started today and is not even on IMDb yet. Will I name names on a forum like this? Of course not. I don't think getting that specific is very professional. Now...if a close friend like Kays took me out for beer...it would most likely be discussed off-the-record between friends. :wink: And no folks...don't PM me either. But it is happening.

In the past as far as films...I can tell you 3 indie films that got scores for free or next to free by big names. In The Bedroom...Chumscrubber...and Clint Eastwood replacing Max Richter's score for Grace Is Gone (After its Sundance premiere and award with Richter's score in it). Also...District 9 was not for free...but incredibly low with almost whole package put back into the Eastern European orchestra.

But those were the exceptions then...not the rule. Now, composers have made it part of an every day rule and it is becoming the norm. Sadly.


----------



## José Herring (Jul 30, 2012)

Brian's right I'm afraid. It's sad but true.

The last film I did(and this film had me questioning as to whether or not I could continue, I haven't done another film since) the amount of competition for this little film was fierce. I've never experienced anything like that. I literally signed the deal while they were entertaining offers from other big name composers, or other composers who certainly had bigger credits than I did. I even helped the director listen to some tracks from other composers and compared them to my tracks all the while telling him why I think I could do a better job. It was almost humorous. 

When I first started I got most of my work because there was nobody else willing to do it. Now, there's just about anybody willing to do anything.

My advice when first starting out is, do whatever you can do. The only chance of any of us rising out of the heap is to score something that makes some money. To do that we have to be willing to work.

Just look at the amount of big name composers of the past that aren't working any more. Don't think for a second that they're not also competing for any job they can get just to stay in the game.



It's a weird time for film composers.

Oh, I should also mention that one of the main reasons I got the job is because I was the only one they were considering that was willing to do it all with samples, which is what they could afford. So in a sense, again, I got the job because I was the only one willing to do it. :lol:


----------



## midphase (Jul 30, 2012)

Firstly, I heard of a certain famous A-list guy (initials MB) doing shit for free...but don't quote me on it and I really don't want to hear trolls bitching to me about it...you know who you are. I just heard about it from a pretty reliable source so take it for what it's worth (probably not much).

Secondly, Brian does know what he's talking about, so unless you've been working in Hollywood for over a decade, have tons of great industry insider contacts, and produce a podcast about scoring, you shouldn't assume you know more than he does.

Lastly...this one goes straight to the Willard guy: Here's the truth...people who ask you to give them a number are annoying. Why? Because they know exactly what they have budgeted for music, they're just hoping that somehow someway your number will be lower (it typically never is). I would just ask them to cut the bullshit and tell you what they got, it's really that simple and saves everyone so much time. I think the figures that Jeff threw around are pretty spot on...particularly the $5k for a small micro budget indie (less than $500k).


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 30, 2012)

midphase @ Tue 31 Jul said:


> Secondly, Brian does know what he's talking about, so unless you've been working in Hollywood for over a decade, have tons of great industry insider contacts, and produce a podcast about scoring, you shouldn't assume you know more than he does.



Who said he didn't? And if I based my perception of the world on what I heard from the internet, i'd probably be in an asylum. There's no harm in prodding for more info so please don't refer to me as a troll. 

Ps. Sorry I seem to have derailed OP's thread topic a bit =(


----------



## Daryl (Jul 31, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Its different though for Plumbers, electricians, engineers etc because there really are accepted normal costs.
> 
> It costs to come out and look at your plumbing, and it costs money for the parts and for labour. The thing in question is either fixed or it isnt. With composing its... not so obvious, especially when you're quite new and there's plenty of people saying they'll do it for free or next to nothing and you have guys trying to screw you over and those who have no idea what it takes to make a track. Its also music so theres residual income which those other industries do not get at all.


Partly. It's also different because Plumbers and Electricians actually have the qualifications to do the job that you're asking them to quote for. If you were prepared to get an unqualified tradesman, you could easily get the costs down to next to nothing. Of course you would be risking a flood or a fire. :lol: 

It's also different with composers because if your plumbing doesn't work, then it is obvious to everyone that it doesn't work, whereas if your music is cr*p, many people won't notice, or at least will tell themselves that others won't notice, because they want to save money. :wink: 

D


----------



## BopEuph (Jul 31, 2012)

Related video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSg ... r_embedded)


----------



## Mike Marino (Jul 31, 2012)

Hey Ryan,

This might be helpful as well (especially if you're trying to find what your actual already built-in costs are).

http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/

- Mike


----------



## Markus S (Jul 31, 2012)

Great discussion, guys, especially points by Brian and Midphase.

To get in a very basic matter back at the original posters question.

There is no such thing as a usual budget or standard fee in our market, unfortunately.

You have two ways of approaching the questions :

1. How much does it cost you to make the score? What have you invested in material (computers, sound libraries - of course you can't earn that money back right away, let's say over 5 years, so how much per month?)? How much does your life as composer cost? Rent, health assurance, electricity? If you want to have a little extra, maybe, maybe not, what will be your minimum rate?

From there you can calculate your rate.

2. How much is the market "willing" to pay? OK, here starts the problem and the actual discussion.

Whatever you are accepting to start out working for free or not, know that at some point you will to calculate your budget as in point one. Or your business is going down. It amazes me how many people are ready to work for free in PERSPECTIVE to gain a living writing music on commission. In addition to the fact that there is a risk that some day, when you actually want to get paid, you will be replaced by someone with the attitude you had years before, you have absolutely no guarantee that some day the people you worked with will pay you (or that they will ever get into a position where they could pay you). Same goes for potential royalties - will they arrive? Maybe yes, maybe no.

So keep in mind where you are concerning your business plan. How much you "should" get paid if you were working in a working business model?

We could all work on week-ends and in the evening, but if people want a dedicated professional composers who they can call at any time (meaning normal business hours) and get high quality on short notice, they will have to pay him so that he can make a living.


----------



## Daryl (Jul 31, 2012)

Markus S @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Whatever you are accepting to start out working for free or not, know that at some point you will to calculate your budget as in point one. Or your business is going down. It amazes me how many people are ready to work for free in PERSPECTIVE to gain a living writing music on commission. In addition to the fact that there is a risk that some day, when you actually want to get paid, you will be replaced by someone with the attitude you had years before, you have absolutely no guarantee that some day the people you worked with will pay you (or that they will ever get into a position where they could pay you).


This is a very good point. I would say that if a relatively inexperienced composer works for a rookie director for nothing (or a tiny fee), you should never believe the "when I move on, I'll take you with me" routine. The norm for a rookie director moving up a rung or two is that they are given very little option as to their choice of composer. After all, why would an investor risk their money on a rookie director and a rookie composer? Far better to take the risk on the director and then make sure that all other departments are filled by experienced professionals. 

It has also been my experience that once you work for nothing (or a low fee), that is all you are worth to that production team or director. The idea that they would ever pay you more is a pipe dream for most people. After all, when they have real money, they can hire a more experienced composer, and if you were experienced, you wouldn't do the gig for nothing in the first place...! It doesn't mean that they are right. However, in a lot of case,s how much you charge is directly proportional to how good you are, in the eyes of producers.

D


----------



## mark812 (Jul 31, 2012)

Daryl @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Markus S @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever you are accepting to start out working for free or not, know that at some point you will to calculate your budget as in point one. Or your business is going down. It amazes me how many people are ready to work for free in PERSPECTIVE to gain a living writing music on commission. In addition to the fact that there is a risk that some day, when you actually want to get paid, you will be replaced by someone with the attitude you had years before, you have absolutely no guarantee that some day the people you worked with will pay you (or that they will ever get into a position where they could pay you).
> ...



But how to start then? Student film budgets are often nonexistent.


----------



## Kejero (Jul 31, 2012)

Interesting read by the Ogden. A bunch more articles on the same topic on the site too.


----------



## Daryl (Jul 31, 2012)

mark812 @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> But how to start then? Student film budgets are often nonexistent.


That's the whole conundrum, isn't it. All I'm saying is that just because someone has scored a few student shorts, does not mean that those same students will offer them work, if they move up to become more successful.

You just have to take a risk when you reach the point that you think that what you're doing is good enough to be able to command a fee. You also have to accept that most of your current contacts will never pay you anything, no matter what you may think you're worth.

D


----------



## rgames (Jul 31, 2012)

TheWillardofOZ @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> I'm probably being taken advantage of


Correct.

You act like this guy has some power over you and you're being forced to take a bad deal. You're not. Tell the guy to take it or leave it. Say it nicely, of course, but in the end, that's what you say.

You seem to be missing the point: you make the call. You're not someone along for the ride, you're in the driver's seat. The "value" of your creativity is decided by you, not someone else.

You're not really asking what to charge, you're asking what we think someone will let you charge (again, you're putting yourself on the weak end of that negotiation). Your minimum is zero. You've established that fact. The rest is negotiation.

The dilemma you face is independent of the fact that you're working as a composer. It is the same for anyone running any business, creative or otherwise. The plumber and electrician analogies do, in fact, directly apply. Until composers realize that fact, it will continue to be a profession with too many hobbyists. Nobody does plumbing as a hobby - would you like to come fix my leaky shower for free? It'll look great on your plumber demo reel. Doesn't that sound absurd? So why do composers do it?

Here's another analogy: Science and Engineering are creative professions just like composition. So this "we're creatives and we can't judge our worth" baloney is just that - it's baloney. Scientists and Engineers make good livings doing what they do because they value themselves more and don't get caught up in the "I'm a creative" crap.

Ryan, don't get stuck in the mindset that writing music for someone is a privilege. If you do, then you certainly will be taken advantage of.

rgames


----------



## jeffc (Jul 31, 2012)

I read a lot of these comments comparing composing to other trades, and I wonder if some of the people posting them have ever done this for real. I mean there is philosophy and what is right and what your time is worth and etc etc. BUT then there is REALITY. The reality of the real world of film scoring, at least now, is it's brutal and cutthroat and nobody gives a damn about your per hour to break even or whatever you've read in some book (we've all read the books, they're great), but let's talk about the reality of the business (I'm talking Hollywood) right now. 

Kays, Brian, Jose - they're all telling it how it is. The other comments might make nice arguments but I can't see how they apply to reality. Money is never even talked about to you get the job - which is a miracle in itself given the competition. After that, producer says to you (or agent) - here's what we got. Usually a package. Usually really really low. They don't give an f*&* what a plumber makes or electrician makes, or your costs. You take it or leave it. Sure you might negotiate a couple extra grand, but that's it. And yes people from all levels compete on small stuff. So if you have the chance to score something that's good, bottom line you have to do it. 

Yes, your director might leave you behind on the next one. So what, if you didn't do the film you wouldn't have the credit or the director. You'd have your moral values, which is great, but if they are that important to you I'd suggest you find another career. You will save yourself endless frustration.

I just think it's important for some of the more 'green' guys to get a taste of what it's really like out there. There are stories for years about people getting screwed in Hollywood - actors, directors, writers, producers, and yes composers. It's not a nice business, let's be honest. You need a thick skin and have to open your eyes to what's really going on - it's about way more than music. In fact, I'm not sure how far down the list music actually is but it's low. Most of the time it's a popularity contest.

Back to the $$, I know of a certain indie that will probably be up for some stuff at Oscar time this year that the composer made 3k. Yes, that's right. That is reality. But if the film gets the buzz that it probably will, he's in the game and will be at the front of the line on the next cool film (back to the popularity contest comment). IF he took some of the arguments above about walking away, he wouldn't have the opportunities that he will. So was he wrong in that? If you think so, it's not the biz for you.....


----------



## rgames (Jul 31, 2012)

jeffc @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Back to the $$


Money is not the only thing that makes the gig worth your while. If you get on a film that's Oscar-worthy, then it might be worthwhile to do it for a low fee.

Contacts, experience, Oscars - they're all included in the "worth your while" calculation. Which is exactly why these threads are pointless - the calculation depends entirely on the person pitching for the gig and what is worth his while.

Two points, though:

1. If you're not getting paid enough to make a living then what are you really doing?

2. If it's a gig where everyone else is making money and the composer is not, then are those contacts, experiences, or Oscars really worth it?

rgames


----------



## Daryl (Jul 31, 2012)

There will always be the stories of films with no music budget that get Oscars. There will also be those many thousands of films that disappear without trace. A professional can only afford to do a certain number of jobs in the hope of furthering his or her career. For the rest of the time they have to pay the bills, just the same as everyone else. The skill comes in knowing which films to walk away from and which not. :wink: 

D


----------



## midphase (Jul 31, 2012)

Ok...as this discussion progresses, I get more points to make...so here you go:

- I think there is a difference in working for free on a student film, artsy project, a short, or something that's not really designed for profit; and a film whose main goal is to make $$$ for the production. So if you're looking to get a foot in the door, look to the former knowing that you're not hurting your future self down the line.

- Do you have good taste? Well...do you? Then use it to evaluate the project being put in front of you, use common sense and realistic expectations to determine how likely it will go anywhere. I think 99% of us here would have scored Schindler's List or The Artist for free, you could tell right away that those films were going places. On the other hand, when you're presented with a film about yet another group of teens going in an abandoned house to get drunk and then getting killed off one by one...you can pretty much rest assured that the film is going straight to the Netflix streaming page and the director is probably not "movin' on up".

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and sometimes judging a film's potential is not always easy. But you can use your common sense to determine how likely the film is going to help your career. If it's a POS with no names attached (the bar girl from that one episode of Mad Men, or the guy who played the killer in that one CSI episode are NOT names), and it pays crappy...you can pretty much count on two things -- 1. It won't get you noticed. 2. The director will probably not be the next Spielberg.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Jul 31, 2012)

This thread reminds me of discussions among teachers who provide after school tutoring for free.

Before the budget crisis, our district paid teachers to tutor after school. It was a pretty decent rate at $31.50 an hour. That money was one of the first things that got cut, because teachers are so dedicated that some will tutor for free. The district knows this. Do you think that the coaching stipends were cut? Nope. Were there teachers laid off? Yep. Do you think that the tutoring pay will come back? Maybe, but not if some will still do it for free.

These teachers that tutor for free are essentially devaluing what they do. I get that they want to make differences in their students lives, but at what cost? I didn't tutor for the pay, as I have my own kids that I need to tutor at home. The time I do stay after school is for planning how best to meet the needs of my students for the next day. My time at home is for being with my family and then making horrible music that provides stress relief so I can be an effective teacher during the school day

I have watched my budget for the classroom shrink to $0.00. I have to rely on fundraisers and the parent club for any money to buy supplies. The district knows this as well. As long as the parent club exists then why bring back classroom budgets? We have teachers at our site who spend a couple grand of their own money buying supplies. I can not afford to do that, but they are making it so the district does not care.

At one school I taught at, they counted up how many personal books you had in the classroom. Some of those dedicated teachers had hundreds of books that they had purchased with their own money. I purchased some when I just started out, but it was in the 20-30 range. I ended up getting quite a few new ones when extra money came in and they didn't get anything. I point that out now when teachers complain that they don't get paid for tutoring, but still do it for free.

If you devalue your craft people will value it the same as you do.

Don


----------



## Mike Greene (Jul 31, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> I think 99% of us here would have scored Schindler's List or The Artist for free, you could tell right away that those films were going places.


Not me. The production offices for the Artist were next door. For months I talked with the producers and staff across the fence between our parking lots. The director was even a fellow car guy and we talked about this vintage Lincoln he had back in France.

They invited me to their offices a few times to see what they were doing. A silent film? _Uhhhhhh, sure, sounds like a great idea, guys!_ I was so sure this film would be a bomb that even when they were right here, touring my studio, I didn't bother to ask, _"So, have you hired a composer yet?"_ I mean, a silent film??? Let them find some other sucker.

I'm such an idiot sometimes . . .


----------



## Daryl (Jul 31, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> midphase @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I think 99% of us here would have scored Schindler's List or The Artist for free, you could tell right away that those films were going places.
> ...


The same goes for Shindler's List. If there was an unknown director involved, I doubt that it would even have been made.

D


----------



## midphase (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm talking about watching some films and being able to make a determination of whether or not they have a good shot at getting noticed and doing well with the public.

Maybe it's just me, maybe you guys have a hard time being able to discern quality? I dunno.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Jul 31, 2012)

Kays, are you referring to MB who scored KB's THL starring JR? I know that was low budget which I'm sure trickled down to the micro ensemble recorded for the score (which was great). It's easy to see how that movie would have made an impact in more ways than one.


----------



## Daryl (Jul 31, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> I'm talking about watching some films and being able to make a determination of whether or not they have a good shot at getting noticed and doing well with the public.


However, that implies that you would have actually watched the film before turning it down. It's easy with 20/20 hindsight. Not so much if you were offered a black and white film with no music budget and a rookie director. Chances are that none of us would have taken a look.

Look, put it this way, you've moaned in the past about being offered films with a really low budget. Did you watch them all, before turning them down? If you did, then I would imagine that you would be in the minority, as most people wouldn't.

D


----------



## Mike Greene (Jul 31, 2012)

I wasn't trying to refute Kays' point, which I completely agree with. It's just that when he mentioned The Artist, it reminded of what a dummy I was. I still get sick to my stomach when I think about it. Not that they ever offered me the gig or anything, and I'm not exactly Mr. Orchestra anyway, but it's just that I didn't even try.

That tangent aside, I think both Daryl and Kays are right on this. Daryl's right that it's a lot easier in hindsight rather than in pre-production to tell which films are going to be brilliant. Certainly with The Artist, I had no idea that this low budget film renting the fleabag building next to mine would be an Oscar winner. It's not like I got to see a cut or anything. And even then, would I have had the vision? I don't know.

On the other hand, I think with the vast majority of *bad* films, you can tell just by the first few pages of the script that this is a _"You're gonna need to pay me a lot of money"_ film. There's definitely a lot that can be concluded with a little savvy and common sense.


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jul 31, 2012)

jeffc @ Sun Jul 29 said:


> I see a lot of people quoting the 3% of budget thing, that must have been written in some book or article somewhere. But that is definitely not realistic on indie films these days. Sure some might pay it. But if you're saying that a 3 mil indie is paying 90k I wouldn't believe you. There's hypothetical and there's reality and the reality isn't too good right now. Indies that might have paid 30-40k a few years back might pay 10k now. I think realistically for a small indie film with no name cast, you'd be lucky to get 5k. Up front for sure. Percentage or back end is worthless. Keep publishing if you can. And hope its a hit. If the film gets a buzz and you scored it, it will be worth it to you many times over. And nobody will ask what you got paid on it. I think worrying about money too much in the beginning can really limit your opportunities to expand your contacts and to just get real experience writing to film.
> 
> Of course there are guys who somehow come in and make a big fee on their first film by whatever chance occurrence - knowing somebody, being in a big band, working for a big name guy.. But to try and make that exception to the rule a model to follow is a bit unrealistic to me.
> 
> Good luck.



I got it from an indie producer.

But I think you're missing a major point: the art of negotiation. Budgets always change per film, but by having a starting % you have a starting point to begin your negotiation. 

On a $1 million budget (total budget -the whole magilla) 3% gives a PROJECTED music budget of $30,000 out of which everything must come including composing fees. 

So that non-etched in stone number becomes the start of your conversation in defining what they want and what you want.

An important thought here: just because you're not a suit doesn't mean they aren't. Their job is to negotiate the best price possible including getting you to do it for free, which if you do all the work is a budget of 0%.

If 3% is high, you'll find out quick enough. It's easy to negotiate down, not so easy to negotiate up.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Aug 1, 2012)

I'm going to chime in say Peter is Dead On.

The problem we have as composers and anyone in the film business is we really don't have a rock solid idea of how successful the end product is going to be or how much money will be generated. On the other hand, money is raised and other people are getting paid.

So we as composers have to have good business sense and learn how to negotiate. Anyone working for free is shooting themselves in the foot. Unless some miracle occurs and the project is a crazy success, someone who works for little or no money gets branded as the "cheap" guy. Will the director come back to you when he has a real budget??? Not likely.

Here is another bit I heard directly from a director with some good jobs coming..."Listen kid, I don't care if you have the best demo in the world and you will score my project for free, I'm going to give the score to someone I trust".


----------



## Markus S (Aug 1, 2012)

mark812 @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Markus S @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> ...



There are other markets than the film business that need original music. Many of them actually. If you start looking for money where people do not have any, it's a bad place to look.

There are also those who could pay, but do not want to (because they get sufficient quality for free) I have this first hand, too. It's funny because the guy will never give out a paid job to someone (even though making a living off his films), because composers are there to "break into the industry" and work for free. Kind of ironical. I hate to be vulgar, but I read this somewhere "composers are good at fucking each other over" - including themselves, very true.


----------



## midphase (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryl @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Look, put it this way, you've moaned in the past about being offered films with a really low budget. Did you watch them all, before turning them down? If you did, then I would imagine that you would be in the minority, as most people wouldn't.
> 
> D



I watch any movie (rough cuts with a temp score usually) and read any scripts that I'm sent. I also do research about the director, crew, production company, and find as much information as possible about the people I might be working with. It's part of doing business...doesn't everyone else do that too?

Who turns down a film without even looking at it?


----------



## BopEuph (Aug 1, 2012)

I do kind of understand where the OP is coming from, though. How do you know you're ready, and how do you justify the pay when someone else would readily accept a job and do a better job at it?

It's a tough issue. I haven't yet started composing, but having been a musician for 20 years, and been doing nothing but music to make a living since 2000, I'm going to go with the thought that once I start composing, I'll be ready to charge the "going rate" (whatever that is) from my first job on.

When I say I haven't started composing, I mean doing the V.I. thing. I've put stuff on paper already for a while. But I have no way to get people to hear it, as I'm no longer in college. I guess with all of my related experience, though, I have a bit of a head start, and it's the honing my compositional and technical skills that I will need to work on.

I'm a clinician at a school this week, and the band director always tells his kids to NEVER work for free. So he's already priming professional musicians from the start. I wish my band and orchestra teachers told me that in the beginning.


----------



## poseur (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryl @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> However, that implies that you would have actually watched the film before turning it down. It's easy with 20/20 hindsight. Not so much if you were offered a black and white film with no music budget and a rookie director. Chances are that none of us would have taken a look.
> 
> Look, put it this way, you've moaned in the past about being offered films with a really low budget. Did you watch them all, before turning them down? If you did, then I would imagine that you would be in the minority, as most people wouldn't.



i'm confused, or..... am i in a minority, here?
i can't remember the last film i scored wherein i did _not_ see it,
did not read the script, did not (as kays pointed-out) _do my homework_ in advance of accepting the job.....

..... oh, yes!, i can!
that particular film finally proved itself to be the freaking "Ishtar" of indie films,
and a ridiculous nightmare/headache/heartache, to boot.


----------



## rgames (Aug 1, 2012)

We need to create a sticky called "Business 101".

The discussion in this thread has nothing to do with composing - it's all about the basic decision making process involved in running a business. Deciding on rates, attracting customers, negotiating contracts, etc - the basics are all independent of the fact that it's a group of composers discussing those points.

As a composer, you are an entity that enters a market. You try to figure out what the appropriate business model is, then the market lets you know if you got it right. There's no point in asking other composers - the market will tell you.

By the way, when businesses get together and decide on rates/prices, it's called collusion and it's against the law.

rgames


----------



## poseur (Aug 1, 2012)

rgames @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> By the way, when businesses get together and decide on rates/prices, it's called collusion and it's against the law.



and, when said "businesses" are built from the work of individuals,
then it might be called "unionising" or "guild-making".....
which seems quite close to being "against the law" in the USofA.


----------



## Daryl (Aug 1, 2012)

poseur @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > However, that implies that you would have actually watched the film before turning it down. It's easy with 20/20 hindsight. Not so much if you were offered a black and white film with no music budget and a rookie director. Chances are that none of us would have taken a look.
> ...


That's not quite what I was saying though. I would agree that you should see a film, if possible, before accepting, but there are many projects of all sorts that I've turned down without getting any details, other than the budget. After all, if I work for nothing, that would make me an amateur, according to Midphase. :lol: 

D


----------



## midphase (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, working consistently on projects for no pay is called a a hobby.

If we're talking specifically about "films" or projects which are dramatic/narrative in nature then I really don't see how anyone can decide on whether or not to participate in it without actually looking at the material. If we're talking about corporate or advertising, then that's a bit different and in those cases one can probably make a decision based strictly on how much it pays.

Regarding this:

"By the way, when businesses get together and decide on rates/prices, it's called collusion and it's against the law. "

Someone should inform the airlines about that law!


----------



## Arbee (Aug 1, 2012)

rgames @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> We need to create a sticky called "Business 101".
> 
> As a composer, you are an entity that enters a market. You try to figure out what the appropriate business model is, then the market lets you know if you got it right. There's no point in asking other composers - the market will tell you.


I think it helps, as a composer, to decide if you're an "artist" with your own sound/brand, a "tradesman" with the broadest possible quality service to offer, or an "investor/stakeholder" who brings individual value to an end commercial product and is hence entitled to participate in the risk/return equation. 

Each of those mindsets, separately and in combination, changes how you approach everything - not just fiim composing. Life is very much, even in art, a series of return on investment or cost/benefit decisions. Only you, interacting with the market, can find the right balance for you.


----------



## Igor (Aug 2, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> But I think you're missing a major point: the art of negotiation. Budgets always change per film, but by having a starting % you have a starting point to begin your negotiation.
> 
> On a $1 million budget (total budget -the whole magilla) 3% gives a PROJECTED music budget of $30,000 out of which everything must come including composing fees.
> 
> ...



I think Peter's dead on. Everyone needs a baseline from which to begin a negotiation. Yes, all budgets are different. But anyone who's blind to what their colleagues earn is at an immediate disadvantage in a negotiation. I don't think it's a bad thing to have that 3% number floating around. Even if it creates false expectations, at least having an expectation means we haven't entirely hit rock-bottom as an industry. The least we can do for ourselves is know what to ask for and what should be expected.


----------



## rgames (Aug 2, 2012)

Igor @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> I think Peter's dead on. Everyone needs a baseline from which to begin a negotiation. Yes, all budgets are different. But anyone who's blind to what their colleagues earn is at an immediate disadvantage in a negotiation. I don't think it's a bad thing to have that 3% number floating around. Even if it creates false expectations, at least having an expectation means we haven't entirely hit rock-bottom as an industry. The least we can do for ourselves is know what to ask for and what should be expected.


OK. I need a composer. I'll give you 3%. My total budget is $100. I need 60 min of music.

When can you start?

Or here's another gig: I'll give you 3% again, but this time my budget is $100,000.

To me, scoring 60 min *might* be worth $3000 but probably not $3. To John Williams, neither is likely worth his time. To someone who doesn't care about making money, $3 might be worthwhile.

See the point?

The dollars and percentages don't matter - it's how they compare to what's worth your while.

There are no magic numbers. *You* make the call.

rgames


----------



## wst3 (Aug 2, 2012)

There has been a LOT of good business advice offered. While composing is not your 'typical' business venture, at some level it is still a business, or it must be if you intend to support yourself by writing music... or designing recording studios, or playing in a band.

I fear that the business of composing music for media (movies, games, advertising, doesn't matter) is headed in the same direction as the studio business, and that's not a positive thing.

There are a lot of good things about the democratization of music production through technology. Making a living is not one of them, there is tremendous downward pressure on rates.

Richard's post above is probably one of the best because it puts things in perspective.

When I was designing and maintaining recording studios I was able to charge a rate which would support me, and I was growing my client list.

Then came the ADAT, and suddenly studios with tape decks could no longer charge enough to support themselves, because folks with ADATs in their basements were charging a fraction of the same rate.

The writing was on the wall, and I dropped the studio maintenance and design business. I still do maintenance for a handful of friend, but I know that there just isn't enough of a market any more.

So... to the OP... you've selected a market, music for film, now you need to figure out how to make a living at it.

I'd suggest calculating your minimum rate a couple of ways:
1) the old faithful - how much do you have invested in facilities, or how much do you need to invest, and how quickly do you need to amortize it? How much do you need to live? Add it all up, and make sure you include all your operating costs and some small margin.
2) the alternate plan - how much do you need to support the business and yourself, ignoring any investment you have already made. Same rules, include all operating costs and some margin.

That's your rate... be it $25/hour or $100/hour.

Now figure out how many billable hours you think you can generate. Most of your projects will not be billed on an hourly basis, but you still need to do this to get an idea of how your rate fits.

If your rate is $50/hour, and you can bill 2000 hours a year then you will earn $100K. Does that work for you?

Next comes the impossible part<G>... how long will it take you to produce (that means write, record, edit, mix, pre-master) 60 minutes of music? You have to guess<G>!!

At this point you should have enough numbers to figure out whether or not you can afford to be a composer, and roughly what you need to earn for this project.

The only question left is whether or not it fits into their budget.

And on this point I'm going to split with the majority.

Once you have established yourself you can 'cut to the chase' and ask about their budget, but as a relative newcomer you will, I think, be better off asking for a specific fee. If they say yes it's all good, if they say no then you can't afford the job.

There will be exceptions - projects which will provide enough exposure or some other intangible benefit to be worth doing even at a loss.

And that's the part that you'll get wrong from time to time... or at least I do! The only thing I can offer on that is that sometimes it is OK to do a job for a low fee (even free) it you have a lot of fun doing it (and it helps your demo reel<G>!)


----------



## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

rgames @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> See the point?
> 
> The dollars and percentages don't matter - it's how they compare to what's worth your while.
> 
> ...



And to be honest Ive been paid *way *more than 5% for low budget projects. Seems like the 5% theory doesnt really make any sense to me.


----------



## midphase (Aug 2, 2012)

You guys are also assuming that the film's budget is public knowledge or that it will be disclosed if you ask.

If I was a producer, I wouldn't tell you how much we're spending in total!


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Aug 3, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> You guys are also assuming that the film's budget is public knowledge or that it will be disclosed if you ask.
> 
> If I was a producer, I wouldn't tell you how much we're spending in total!





Yep, this is what I have found. So like I said earlier, give the producer a range. $3000 is the cheapest I'd do any long form project. That is just me in my studio doing midi. It goes up depending on the amout of live musicians I can bring on board. I play examples to the director/producer and say "here is what you can get for $30,000. So how important is the music? "


----------



## rgames (Aug 3, 2012)

One other point: at the low-budget end, the pay has to be good enough to justify a bad credit.

I've licensed a few of my library tracks to a few *really* bad films and wound up with credits on them. In hindsight, it was a bad choice - I'd rather not be associated with them... The $100 or whatever isn't worth the pain of a really bad credit.

So, even if the money is worth your while, the association might make it not worth your while.

rgames


----------



## BopEuph (Aug 3, 2012)

Some very good insight to this. I'm learning a lot from just reading the posts here.


----------



## wst3 (Aug 4, 2012)

Richard's last post is excellent, and should be made a sticky all by itself!

Your reputation is important. Your demo reel is important, but a lot of times folks will have heard about you before hand, or they'll search for you on the web if they haven't. You want to keep the number of clunkers to a minimum.

And at the risk of being tossed out on my ear - it used to be that new composers ended up writing a lot of the scores for 'blue movies'. Today it's probably all library stuff, if there's music at all, but if you do get the opportunity use a pseudonym! (These used to be very lucrative gigs because none of the more experienced composers wanted them.)

And while we can all rally around the fact that it really should not matter if we scored a dozen blue movies, or a dozen bombs, the producers care only about the return on investment - so your credits do count.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 5, 2012)

The numbers game is important and as you start working in the industry, you get to know how much top composers or producers are charging and you try and fit yourself somewhere in between depending on your skills and reputation.

I started in advertising as additional composer and programmer. I have since moved to working on feature films and a bunch of other stuff. 

I am mostly called in for orchestral/hybrid/electronic/ethnic stuff. Its important to remember that there are lots of other gigs around. 

Once you are in circulation, word-of-mouth will help you. But you need to be really good and as others have mentioned - have a good showreel, website amongst other things.

As an example, when I started in films (additional composer/programmer/score producer) - I got paid roughly $2500 for a film where I would typically write 30 mins of music. 

But I knew of top guys charging $15,000 to write roughly 50 mins of music. 

I have since increased my rates to $5000 with delivering 30 mins of music. 

But as others have mentioned this jump was only possible when I started working with top composers and producers. The change happened over a period of a year which is double of what I got paid earlier but it was simply because I had started working on better and national release features. 

Of course, the numbers are not relevant to anyone outside of LA as I am based in Mumbai.

But, it will give you an idea of the business which has similar threads both in Hollywood and in Bollywood (India).


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 5, 2012)

There are many other kinds of music gigs that one should look at.

Apart from film and advertising work, I have also worked on things like songs, film and television logos, news themes, music for a theme park, a few corporate films etc.

So, there is a lot of stuff out there that needs music. Music for video games is big in the US and UK as well.

I would try and meet other composers/music producers/programmers out there and find out about what are the realistic budgets.

Obviously, you cant just imagine these rates. I understand there is a national per minute rate in some countries, but I am not sure if it is followed.

But a lot of these rates are relevant to the sub-industry you are in. 

For example, I charge approximately $500 for additional parts/programming for a commercial. A commercial is only 60 seconds long (mostly much shorter - like 20-40 seconds).

If this was a per minute rate, for a movie, I could charge $15,000 just for additional composing and programming which is three times more than what I charge now.

Advertising pays better than film in terms of per minute rates in Mumbai. 

Film scores are not considered that important and producers are much less willing to pay top dollar for it. 

For example, top song music composers (who only write songs for movies) charge anything between $35,000 to $60,000 per song.

Now, in Bollywood a movie will contain on average 5 songs of approximately 5 minutes length each. This comes to approx $250,000 for these 5 songs which indicates a rate of $10,000 per minute of music.

If you apply this rate for a score, a composer will end up with $1 million.

However, even top score composers here only get paid a maximum of $100,000.

And there are only 4 or 5 who can charge this much. Producers, do have money for songs but when it comes to the score, they are not willing to pay even though its a lot more music with lots of production costs.


Hope this helps.


Tanuj.


----------



## midphase (Aug 5, 2012)

As I said before Tanuj, sounds like you guys have it pretty good in India.

The more you post about the film biz in India, the more it makes me think that I should move there!


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 5, 2012)

Kays,

You are welcome of course! Yes, the music industry is booming. 


Unfortunately, the quality of music is both good and very, very bad.

The scoring industry is in particular very poor condition. Anyone is a composer, crack software is used in 95% of the cases, lots of copying of Hollywood music and even cut-pasting.

I must say that both Hollywood and European cinema have set very high standards in the world of film scoring. 

Hopefully, things will change and hopefully, I will write better music with each project.

Check this ad out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG_wsXftXL4

This is a major Indian mobile brand - Air tel and you can clearly hear the music from Inception (direct CD lift - not a recreation). It was aired on national TV across the country and in cinemas.

I dont even know of anyone who could spot this (musician friends included). I am very familiar with Mr. Zimmer's music and so caught it immediately. 

I am very sure they have not licensed this track from Hans. 

I also remember hearing the jokers theme in a bike ad in the cinema but cant find it on youtube.

Of course there is tremendous talent in India with lots of original music but copying is very much prevelant here as is piracy. 

I know composers who earn $2.5 million a year and still run cracked Nuendo. And I would not really listen to their music but its popular and makes them a lot of money!


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## BopEuph (Aug 5, 2012)

That's interesting that they do that.

Though, if you go around YouTube, you'll see people post videos of music or vids that don't belong to them, but think it's okay because they put "copyright infringement not intended" in the "about" section. I still think that's the dumbest disclaimer I've ever seen.

Either way, maybe the person who thought it was a good idea to use the music thinks there's nothing illegal about it? Just like the people who make those disclaimers on YouTube think they've found a loophole in the law?


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Aug 5, 2012)

BopEuph @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> ...
> 
> Either way, maybe the person who thought it was a good idea to use the music thinks there's nothing illegal about it? Just like the people who make those disclaimers on YouTube think they've found a loophole in the law?



different cases, man... 

the uploader on youtube isn't making money with others music. the """composer""" from Tanuj example ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG_wsXftXL4 ) probably get paid for that """composition"""


----------



## BopEuph (Aug 5, 2012)

I meant that maybe the producer of the commercial thought to use the track rather than hiring a composer. It would be a horrible thought that a "composer" would try to do something like that. Notifying Zimmer's people might be a good start to prevent at least Airtel from allowing that to happen again.

That's just my thought on this.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 5, 2012)

Nick,

When I first noticed this, I was really angry and upset because airtel is a big brand in India and I hate this copying mentality here.

I did send Lrone Balfe an e-mail with the link, in the hope that it would get to Mr. Zimmer. I did not hear back but perhaps it was not worth taking action or may be the e-mail got lost/unnoticed.

I am sure this is a doing of the producer or the editor. I would be surprised if a composer did this!


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## BopEuph (Aug 5, 2012)

Maybe send a follow up? It could be a good opportunity for you if you were able to "coincidentally" slide in and offer your services as a professional composer at the same moment someone slaps them on the hand for not using original material.


----------



## Madrigal (Aug 6, 2012)

vibrato @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> Kays,
> 
> You are welcome of course! Yes, the music industry is booming.
> 
> ...




I enjoyed reading your posts Tanuj. I lived in India for several months a couple of years ago and although it isn't much, it's still enough to get a basic idea of how the pop culture and the business behind it work. 

If they handle the music end the same way they handle film shootings, the best word I can find to describe the process is "chaotic". That is why your posts made me smile. Good memories. I don't mean to say that as a bad thing. Sure chaotic in the U.S. might seem like a pejorative term but for me, in India, it is what made the beauty of the country. The proper word might be _diversity_. 

I'm suprised to see that much money being allocated to music even though it is, as you've been saying, a neglected area. If I hadn't been in Mumbai, I would acutally be doubting the fact that industry folks can be paid that kind of money, having spent my time there mostly around people who lived with very very modest means. 

However, I do understand your frustration. Quality in music can be subjective but if you prefer what westerners have been doing in the area of film music, there seems to be a long way to go. Don't give up, I'm sure you'll find a way to get your point across.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 6, 2012)

vibrato @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> I know composers who earn $2.5 million a year and still run cracked Nuendo. And I would not really listen to their music but its popular and makes them a lot of money!
> 
> 
> Best,
> ...



This is more prevalent than people think. It's completely baffling to me. I've run into composers pulling in more than $40,000/week doing commercials and library music and they're still using cracks. They buy a lot of stuff too, but still.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 6, 2012)

My post was off topic I know. Sorry for that. Just wanted to comment on that one point.

Back on topic.

The last thing to worry about when you're just starting out are fees. Trust me. You'll be lucky enough to be chosen even if you do it for free.

On the other hand don't be stupid about it. 

I say worry about how to convince them that their film can't live without you, then once you got the gig find out how much it pays. If it pays nothing and you don't feel right doing it then turn it down.

But, you won't get anywhere worrying about fees. It actually turns people off because it makes you seem like all you're worried about is the money. On indie films, trust me, most people are working for free or peanuts and everybody is taking a big chance in the hopes that the film will see some success. If you want to work in that field then, you have to be willing to share that risk with them.

And, it's never been a problem finding the budget for a film. Mostly people are all too willing to share. These aren't bad guys and it's not an "us against them" type of situation with indie films. It's more of a "us against the world" type of thinking. You join a team. that team is fighting to make the best film possible. The success of that depends on what you're willing to put into it and not what you're willing to take out of it.

Of course there are people that do have the money and are willing to rip you off. But in all honesty why would you want to work with somebody like that anyway?

Of course I have a soft heart for people that are honestly trying to make the best film they can on a budget. So, I look for that. 

Think about it, the world will be no worse if "Mega Shark Vs. Giant Octopus" was never made. So my theory is, save yourself for the good stuff. Don't worry about the money in the beginning. If you have to do crap stuff to pay the bills then by all means do it. I know I have, but look towards that one film that might actually be good, where the people are dedicated and want the best. Then do all you can to help them, because they need the help. And, they'll really appreciate it.

That's been my experience anyway. I just got paid for something I did a year or more ago. They didn't have anything upfront but the film was good, the people honest, and I just couldn't stand the idea of somebody else scoring it. So I fell on the sword and did it. It almost killed me. Working months full time, with nothing to show for it. I did library stuff on the side to keep a little income going, but that's about it. I was about to throw my computers out the window at the end of this gig, but I just believed in the film.

It's now being picked up world wide and some theatrical releases. First time one of my films will be shown in a theater.

I got to believe that there's better out there for me, but I don't think I'll get anything better by just worrying about how much they can pay me.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 7, 2012)

Madrigal,

As you say, with diversity comes a lot of contrast in how things are done. Music industry is I think better than the film industry on the whole. 

However, I know 'Composers' who cannot play an instrument, use a computer to make any sort of music and cannot sing. 

It is difficult then to get gigs with good budgets with all the software and equipment that I have invested in. I want to offer quality but sometimes the system does not support it. 

Its a long battle and one which we may never end. My only problem is that I want to learn more and write more film music. This is the reason I have a strong desire to move to the UK or the US but it is difficult because there are many, many more talented composers than me out there and I would have to be very special to get work with a visa in LA!

Sorry to go off-topic but inner workings of an industry allow you to take an overall view. I thought, it will be interesting for others to read about the music practices of the largest film industry in the world.


Tanuj.


----------



## midphase (Aug 7, 2012)

vibrato @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> It is difficult then to get gigs with good budgets with all the software and equipment that I have invested in. I want to offer quality but sometimes the system does not support it.
> 
> Its a long battle and one which we may never end. My only problem is that I want to learn more and write more film music. This is the reason I have a strong desire to move to the UK or the US but it is difficult because there are many, many more talented composers than me out there and I would have to be very special to get work with a visa in LA!



What makes you think that it's any different over here?

I'm being totally serious, if you think that the solution to your problem is to try and relocate to L.A., you're in for a very rude awakening.

Trust me when I say this, if you're making a living (however modest) through music composition in India, don't be so eager to trade that off for a fantasy.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 7, 2012)

Kays,

I know what you are saying. I suppose, I do have a romantic view of the whole situation with the film music industry in Hollywood and even in Europe. 

I am happy with the fact that I still get to write the kind of music I want to, largely speaking and make decent money. 

My only wish is to better myself and learn more. I suspect that a hub for film scoring such as LA or other places would offer more in these departments.

I have a huge fetish for writing for film and working with orchestras (anyone here doesnt?). I am least qualified to do the latter of course. But, there has to be a start somewhere.

I am in a decent space right now and would not trade it off for a fantasy for sure but if an opportunity did find itself in my sphere, I would be sure to take it up even if it is more modest than the work I do here.

But of course, I am not going to make a professional suicide!


Tanuj.


----------



## midphase (Aug 7, 2012)

vibrato @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Kays,
> 
> I know what you are saying.




I really don't think you do. Situation is pretty dire around here, anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying or living in a bubble.

If all you're looking to do is become a better composer, you can do that anywhere on the planet.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 8, 2012)

midphase @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> vibrato @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Kays,
> ...




Agreed!


----------



## mverta (Sep 18, 2012)

My answer to this often-asked question.

_Mike


----------



## Kejero (Sep 19, 2012)

Great post Mike. I feel exactly the same about everything you said.

For any beginner, the first question shouldn't be 'how much should I charge', but 'how much do I need'. However, since most composers don't start out with their music as their main source of income, the _actual need_ may be close to zero. In this case, I say: pretend that the music would be your only source of income. Pretend that it should cover all your costs, bills etc. for the duration of the project. Now you have a target budget, a hard number, that you can start from. Go up from there if this is your actual source of income. Go down if you're just breaking in, but don't go down too much. This should give you an _actual_ target budget.
And of course, as per rule number 1 of negotiating: now you up that target budget again before you start the negotiations, because if the number moves, it will only move down from there. It doesn't matter if you know that you'll never get the number you start your negotiating with, that's not the point. The point is that it puts you in a position where you can lower your price: this way you can reach a compromise with your client, AND reach your target budget at the same time.

Here's another ScoreCast article dealing with how to calculate your target budget:

http://www.scorecastonline.com/2010/09/ ... here-your/


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 19, 2012)

jeffc @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> I read a lot of these comments comparing composing to other trades, and I wonder if some of the people posting them have ever done this for real. I mean there is philosophy and what is right and what your time is worth and etc etc. BUT then there is REALITY. The reality of the real world of film scoring, at least now, is it's brutal and cutthroat and nobody gives a damn about your per hour to break even or whatever you've read in some book (we've all read the books, they're great), but let's talk about the reality of the business (I'm talking Hollywood) right now.
> 
> Kays, Brian, Jose - they're all telling it how it is. The other comments might make nice arguments but I can't see how they apply to reality. Money is never even talked about to you get the job - which is a miracle in itself given the competition. After that, producer says to you (or agent) - here's what we got. Usually a package. Usually really really low. They don't give an f*&* what a plumber makes or electrician makes, or your costs. You take it or leave it. Sure you might negotiate a couple extra grand, but that's it. And yes people from all levels compete on small stuff. So if you have the chance to score something that's good, bottom line you have to do it.
> 
> ...



Yep.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Sep 19, 2012)

2 years ago I was hired and then un-hired because another composer offered to do it for free.

I asked the client, "Do you think he will do it as well as I can?"

He replied, "No, but it will be good enough".


----------



## mverta (Sep 19, 2012)

It's always a judgement call. If you walk away because the money's too low, the film might go on to win an Oscar and then you've missed being the next big thing. Statistically, I bet this has happened, though I've never actually heard of it.

On the flip side, unless you're willing to walk away, you will take what you're given and be the producer's bitch. It's that simple. You get what you accept, not what you deserve, and the surest sign of slavery is to have a price and be bought for it.


In valuation of anything -goods, services, people- there is no reality. There is merely perception. Advertising is the art of creating valuation by shaping perception. This is how the stock market works, largely, as well. 

Your job is to increase the perception of your value, through marketing (the way you present your "product"), and one of the cardinal rules of advertising is: There is only one type of hamburger: The World's Greatest. You have to be ready and willing to state the bold, new truth of your own design, and hold to it. "This is what I'm worth."

Many times, you will walk away without the gig, but having accomplished two very important things: 1) You've put the seed "out in the world" that you're not one of the cheap guys - this is crucial. and 2) You're not working a job for shit money, the pressure and stress of which isn't worth the paycheck, and you're not having your dream crushed by having it manifest as a suck reality.

If you take the gig, yay! You have a gig. And, you know, some money, anyway. And who knows, maybe that investment will pay off. Personally, I've tried both philosophies lots in the last 20 years, and without question, the one where I hold fast to what I'm worth FAR outpays what I would've made on all the little ones I walked away from. None of which won Oscars. So, today, I work less, but make more, and enjoy being a composer, thoroughly.

Jay's little anecdote says it all. I mean, who the fuck wants to work for that asshole?

_Mike


----------



## Brian Ralston (Sep 19, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> 2 years ago I was hired and then un-hired because another composer offered to do it for free.
> 
> I asked the client, "Do you think he will do it as well as I can?"
> 
> He replied, "No, but it will be good enough".



Boy do I have a story for you Jay. For when I see you in a couple weeks. 

:wink:


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 19, 2012)

From my vantage point of nearly 20 years in the biz, I am coming around to the idea that the most important thing, beyond how much to charge, is how do I make as many new relationships with directors/editors/producers as possible, contacts based as much on my music as on my personality. The relations you invest in early can really pay off down the line. I'm not talking about bullsh*t relationships, but rather those built on shared experiences in the film/tv battlefield. Get known and get connected.


----------



## midphase (Sep 19, 2012)

I agree Ned, but you and I have been at this for as many years and I will say that about 80% of my hard built relationships are right now out of work.

The industry is changing drastically, and very quickly. Perhaps in Canada things are a little less dire, or perhaps you have found a niche group which is not impacted by recent developments. Over here most directors that up until a few years ago were working on decent budget films are struggling to raise a fraction of the money for their upcoming projects. 

And BTW, this is not just my network, speaking to other composers in the area we all seem to be in a similar boat. Plus I heard some news lately which, when they become public, are sure to shake think up pretty massively (and not in a good way).


----------

