# Ni Action Strikes



## RasmusFors (Nov 13, 2013)

Wow, this fall seems to be overcrowded with epic percussion libraries. First Hz perc, then Apocalypse perc, and now Action Strikes. Honestly I think that this new library is a massive step forward compared to Action Strings. It dosen't sound horrible, and the single hits provided solver a big problem I hade with the strings. At only 299 I think I will pick it up soon!


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## R.Cato (Nov 13, 2013)

Here's the introduction video.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Nov 13, 2013)

299 is a lot for 3.2GB of content.

It looks like some great scripting in there. However in the video, some of it sounded very sequenced to me. It doesn't use timestretching so I guess it's sequenced individual hits.


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## reddognoyz (Nov 13, 2013)

not for nothing, but I have a good friend who is a mixer and has been mixing cartoons for years. He has absolutely zero musical background. None.
The producers and director on the show he's working on now decided that the show needed a musical facelift, and needed a LOT more testosterone, something that wasn't at all in the composers wheelhouse. 
After several months of general disenchantment with the music they were getting, the engineer bought Damage and Action Strings. He pushed a couple of keys at the same time, and now he is scoring the show. 
Now this guy isn't exactly a trained monkey, he knows a LOT about spotting, and that's a huge part of the job, but damn... gonna get harder and harder to find work when the Avid and Final Cut editors catch on.

just saying...


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## doctornine (Nov 13, 2013)

If thats 299 Euro, going to be interesting to see what price point HZ percussion comes in at.


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## mark812 (Nov 13, 2013)

"Modern composer" posts coming in 3...2...1... :D


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## zvenx (Nov 13, 2013)

I don't own APE or this, but mark812 why do you say that.
Quite frankly I have been trying hard to be impressed by APE demo's based on all the love APE gets here and how much I am a soundiron fan, but apart from possible customisation, I much much much prefer the sound of this compared to APE2 based on demos only.
rsp

edit: ah mark812 edited his post..... I think he said based on demos APE blows this out of the water soundwise or something to that effect.


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## jamwerks (Nov 13, 2013)

Does sound good, but 299€ is a little stiff. Something to buy at a half off sale!


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## germancomponist (Nov 13, 2013)

zvenx @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Quite frankly I have been trying hard to be impressed by APE demo's based on all the love APE gets here and how much I am a soundiron fan, but apart from possible customisation, I much much much prefer the sound of this compared to APE2 based on demos only.
> rsp



I know what you mean but I can tell you that APE2 can do much much more than is showed by the demo-makers. When I look first to the name of a demo maker I mostly can guess what will come out of my speakers. 

@mark812: From my side no comment about "modern composers" anymore.


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## mark812 (Nov 13, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> zvenx @ Wed Nov 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Quite frankly I have been trying hard to be impressed by APE demo's based on all the love APE gets here and how much I am a soundiron fan, but apart from possible customisation, I much much much prefer the sound of this compared to APE2 based on demos only.
> ...



Just kidding, Gunther :D 

@zvenx: Oops, I accidentally deleted that part while editing. Yes, I did say that I prefer APE. Why? Because it has the sound I like (think Bourne soundtracks). I like that organic, hall-ish, natural sound. But it's just a matter of personal taste.


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## Marius Masalar (Nov 13, 2013)

Gotta say, that sounds *very* good. Purely from a sonic perspective this is enticing.

I'm also a fan of the way they've programmed it...the separate intensity/accent control, switchable low/mid/hi layers, and inclusion of playable instrument patches seem to give this package more flexibility than I expected.

Keeping an eye on it for sure.


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## Greg (Nov 13, 2013)

Boring


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## zvenx (Nov 13, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> zvenx @ Wed Nov 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Quite frankly I have been trying hard to be impressed by APE demo's based on all the love APE gets here and how much I am a soundiron fan, but apart from possible customisation, I much much much prefer the sound of this compared to APE2 based on demos only.
> ...




I don't doubt you... haven't been unsatisfied with any soundiron library i have purchased.

rsp


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## mark812 (Nov 13, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> not for nothing, but I have a good friend who is a mixer and has been mixing cartoons for years. He has absolutely zero musical background. None.
> The producers and director on the show he's working on now decided that the show needed a musical facelift, and needed a LOT more testosterone, something that wasn't at all in the composers wheelhouse.
> After several months of general disenchantment with the music they were getting, the engineer bought Damage and Action Strings. He pushed a couple of keys at the same time, and now he is scoring the show.
> Now this guy isn't exactly a trained monkey, he knows a LOT about spotting, and that's a huge part of the job, but damn... gonna get harder and harder to find work when the Avid and Final Cut editors catch on.
> ...



Worrying and a bit disgusting at the same time.


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## marcotronic (Nov 13, 2013)

I wish they'd put half of Action Strikes's flexibilty into Action Strings, which has probably been the worst buy of the decade for me...

Marco


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## Christof (Nov 13, 2013)

I agree, Action Strings was a big disappointment, especially the sound.I wonder when they give us an update?


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## Mike Marino (Nov 13, 2013)

> Gotta say, that sounds *very* good. Purely from a sonic perspective this is enticing.
> 
> I'm also a fan of the way they've programmed it...the separate intensity/accent control, switchable low/mid/hi layers, and inclusion of playable instrument patches seem to give this package more flexibility than I expected.
> 
> Keeping an eye on it for sure.



+1


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## JE Martinsen (Nov 13, 2013)

From the Komplete Facebook page a couple of days ago : "This exclusive sonic sneak peek is from a forthcoming Komplete Instrument which offers the ultimate in cinematic percussion."

The demo video didn't exactly blow me away, and wether it's "the ultimate in cinematic percussion" is of course hugely subjective. I think it sounds quite good overall, it's the "ready-made" concept I personally don't like. But that's just a matter of taste. Maybe it's a good way to get into the swing of things and learn how epic cinematic percussion is put together, all in good taste.

But the price.. No surprise from NI here, but 299 euro is 400 dollars. That's Soundiron's APE, and 150 bucks for some extra goodies! Oh my.. :shock:


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## zvenx (Nov 13, 2013)

NI Charges the same in Euro as in Dollars.
so it is actually 299 US..
and
Ape is $249

rsp


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## JE Martinsen (Nov 13, 2013)

Sorry, my bad. Well, 50 bucks for some extra goodies then.. o-[][]-o

EDIT : How do you change the currency to dollars? Is it even possible when buying from Europe?


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## Sid Francis (Nov 13, 2013)

same same epic epic


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## Maestro77 (Nov 13, 2013)

I love the sounds and patch design but it'll be included free with the next Komplete (been burned on that one before) so I'll wait.


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## zvenx (Nov 13, 2013)

JE Martinsen @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Sorry, my bad. Well, 50 bucks for some extra goodies then.. o-[][]-o
> 
> EDIT : How do you change the currency to dollars? Is it even possible when buying from Europe?



I think it looks at your ip address and figures out currency based on your location.

But Good/Bad thats how both NI and Steinberg price their goodies.
rsp


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## Daniel James (Nov 13, 2013)

I am planning on doing an overview video for this lib really soon, I have been playing with if for a few weeks in preparation. It really is a fun lib!

It has its own sound and while the video mostly focuses on the 'loops' part of the lib, the individual hits are awesome! it has some great big and small stuff and its got its own sound.

Anyone who knows me, knows I am all about percussion..in my template I normally have a mix of 8dio, Cinesamples and Spitfire which all have their own qualities. Action Strikes is the first lib to have that 'Thud' type sound and its awesome for layering 

Haha I do sometimes wish the UI was smaller tho XD NI dont mess about with those huge ui's

-DJ


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## woodsdenis (Nov 13, 2013)

zvenx @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> NI Charges the same in Euro as in Dollars.
> so it is actually 299 US..
> and
> Ape is $249
> ...



It is inclusive of VAT which us euros know all about. The rest of the world is exempt hence the difference. I think its on the dear side too but sounds pretty nifty IMO.


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## quantum7 (Nov 13, 2013)

$299 seems a bit steep for an NI library IMO. Their libraries are hit and miss... and I've been burned a few times by them....but then again I did take a chance on Kinetic Metal and was pleasantly surprised. 

*Mr. Daniel James*- I'm surprised with your love of percussion that you do not have APE 2. It's really a fantastic library.


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## José Herring (Nov 13, 2013)

For what it is, I think it's kind of cool.


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## BlueStar (Nov 13, 2013)

I had the chance to work with it before release and I'm really impressed like Daniel James is. It's one of those libraries which just feel right, when you play them. 

Even with the single hits you can play your own rhythms and be happy. Combined with the loops you have all the possibilities. Great relesase.


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## dfhagai (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm sick and tired of all this EPIC shit for a couple of years now.
BUT - this library DOES looks great and very well designed...
iWant


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## AC986 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hasn't this all been done before.


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## korgscrew (Nov 13, 2013)

Sounds great, I was a little dubious when the video started with the loops, but after seeing that they are not pre made loops and use the actual samples rather than pre recorded, it made more sense. They should have started with the instruments first!

Price Point? Far too steep!!


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## gsilbers (Nov 13, 2013)

korgscrew @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Sounds great, I was a little dubious when the video started with the loops, but after seeing that they are not pre made loops and use the actual samples rather than pre recorded, it made more sense. They should have started with the instruments first!
> 
> Price Point? Far too steep!!



i wish they would of done that for action strings. short string samples articulations and midi loops that trigger it and that the user can go into the mini sequencer/notation to change patterns or notes.
like a better version of LASS art.


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## R. Soul (Nov 13, 2013)

$299 is a bit pricey but I loved the sound. 
Could be a good competitor to Damage.


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## Lex (Nov 13, 2013)

All we need now is library of generic horn section lines split in to action/fantasy/drama folders and we are all set.

I mean what's the add pitch for this? _"...feeling to dumb and inadequate to use upcoming HZ percussion library? Stop your worrying, select a pattern and press a key!" _

alex


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 13, 2013)

If I were writing a review of the product this isn't what I'd say, because reviews are about the product and not about me.

But my personal reaction to that video is the same as it was the first time I tried programming a drum machine, only much more so: put the instruments on the keyboard and leave the marching band patterns to someone else; I'm not interested in an analytical interface, I want to play the instruments!

It's just not the way I learned to think.


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 13, 2013)

I have come to the opinion over the years is that unless you just have to have something or it is discounted it is much better to wait till you need it. If the price is not going up what's the difference if it takes an hour to DL? Something better or different might come along you wished you saved for.

That said I really like the way this sounds and the user interface looks very intuitive.


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## germancomponist (Nov 13, 2013)

Lex @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> All we need now is library of generic horn section lines split in to action/fantasy/drama folders and we are all set.
> 
> I mean what's the add pitch for this? _"...feeling to dumb and inadequate to use upcoming HZ percussion library? Stop your worrying, select a pattern and press a key!" _
> 
> alex


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 13, 2013)

Just curious, for those of the opinion that $299 USD is too high for this library, what would you say is an appropriate price? For comparison's sake, here are some prices of what I think might be somewhat comparable libraries:

NI Action Strikes - $299 USD
Soundiron APEv2 - $249 USD
Heavyocity Damage - $299 USD
ProjectSAM True Strike - $299 USD
ProjectSAM True Strike 2 - $299 USD
8Dio All Epic Percussion Bundle - $749 USD
CineSamples CinePerc Epic - $299 USD
Spitfire Audio Percussion Redux - $557.18 USD
Spitfire Audio HZ Percussion - TBD, but I'd speculate at least in the $500-600 range

Seems to me the new Native Instruments Action Strikes shakes out toward the low end of these offerings, so I'm just curious why it would be suggested as overpriced.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 13, 2013)

Tone Deaf @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Just curious, for those of the opinion that $299 USD is too high for this library, what would you say is an appropriate price? For comparison's sake, here are some prices of what I think might be somewhat comparable libraries:
> 
> NI Action Strikes - $299 USD
> Soundiron APEv2 - $249 USD
> ...



For Europeans it can be different, NI Action Strike is 299 euros, SI Ape V2 is 249 dollars or 184 euros.

Even a 299 dollar library is 221 euros.

The difference is that EU customers pay VAT which is included in the NI price. Even then we have a bad deal. Vat is approx 20%

When buying from the States we do not, we pay the dollar price and no VAT. However there are exceptions, Cinesamples will charge VAT to EU customers.

Also NI Action Strikes has only 3 gb of data SI Ape 2 has 26 gb. Damage has 16 gb and is probably the closest comparison product.

Pure data amounts don't always mean a lot and there is more scripting going on in NI Action Strike, but it feels like a 199 launch offer and 229 normal price lib to me.

If you want an out of the box "loop" lib Damage would be a much better choice.

I listened to the demos in HD and it does sound good, and a clever product IMO. I dont think I would be tempted at that price, others may.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 13, 2013)

I own APE, Damage and SD2. My thoughts are:

1. For $100, why not.
2. For $300, why?


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## quantum7 (Nov 13, 2013)

I wouldn't think twice before spending $299 on a Spitfire library, but a library from NI is a whole different story.


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## Maestro77 (Nov 13, 2013)

As a percussionist I wish I could buy a "lite" version with just the sounds mapped across the keyboard in one patch, for maybe $79. I don't need the loop creators and layering junk. Like Nick B. said, that isn't playing music.

That said, I think these samples stack up quite well against APE, CinePerc Epic and others. I own those as well as SD2 and a few other so-called "epic" libraries. These have much more body than APE (which sounds a bit scoop-EQ'ed to my ears) and more aggressive than CP Epic. I think there's room for this in my collection. But not for $300.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 13, 2013)

NI libraries are just not worth 300.

It seems pretty cool, but it sounds a lot like damage, ect.


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## chimuelo (Nov 13, 2013)

My moneys on Orange Tree still.
I must admit anything HZ always gets my attention.
But what can I say, I am a loyalist...


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## dpasdernick (Nov 13, 2013)

How many times can you sample big bang boomies? I seriously doubt anybody (except Daniel ) needs another thunder dome, in-yer-face, bang, bang, smash, boom, bam monkey drummer... technically speaking...

I'm off to buy some pads...


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## Daniel James (Nov 13, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> How many times can you sample big bang boomies? I seriously doubt anybody (except Daniel ) needs another thunder dome, in-yer-face, bang, bang, smash, boom, bam monkey drummer... technically speaking...
> 
> I'm off to buy some pads...



The subtlety of the way a drum is processed leaves me with a different impression of how it sounds regardless of how subtle 

-DJ


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 13, 2013)

Daniel,

Are the individual perc hits velocity sensitive or are there multiple velocities?


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## Daniel James (Nov 13, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Are the individual perc hits velocity sensitive or are there multiple velocities?



Multiple velocities I'm seeing like 5-7 the crossovers are pretty natural from what I am hearing. 

-DJ


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## Joseph_M (Nov 13, 2013)

Lex @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> All we need now is library of generic horn section lines split in to action/fantasy/drama folders and we are all set.
> 
> I mean what's the add pitch for this? _"...feeling to dumb and inadequate to use upcoming HZ percussion library? Stop your worrying, select a pattern and press a key!" _
> 
> alex



All those people who are feeling, "too dumb and inadequate" are on deadlines of the like you've probably never experienced. Sample libraries like these are often enough a god send. 

Also, libraries like this are useful to beginners in that they help to clarify how certain elements are constructed. 

The only real reason anyone could have a problem with this is that they feel threatened that there is no longer an excuse for mediocrity when such stellar tools are available.


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## Lex (Nov 13, 2013)

Joseph_M @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Lex @ Wed Nov 13 said:
> 
> 
> > All we need now is library of generic horn section lines split in to action/fantasy/drama folders and we are all set.
> ...



You assume I never experienced tight deadlines based on what exactly?

As for people using this as a learning tool, I doubt it, certainly not for 299EUR. I think this will be a huge hit, only because it gives great sounding percussion tracks to those who can't compose their own with the added illusion that they are somehow involved in creating them.

alex


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## KMuzzey (Nov 13, 2013)

Price is always an interesting thing on here. A year or two ago, an ethnic percussion library was released that was something like $699 -- which seems really steep for dohls and framedrums etc -- and people went oooh and aaaah and were just wild about it. For $699. Not a single mention about the price of it. And I always thought it was weird that people who complained that $1000 was too much for Symphobia 1 or 2 (full orchestra at your fingertips from now til the end of time) wouldn't even question the price of a $699 percussion library that just had stuff that already existed everywhere else.

Horses for courses, I guess. But 299 doesn't seem bad at all because you're paying for the built-in flexibility and scripting. Looks/sounds like a nifty little tool, especially for folks who are under the gun and just need something that works.

Kerry


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## NYC Composer (Nov 13, 2013)

KMuzzey @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Price is always an interesting thing on here. A year or two ago, an ethnic percussion library was released that was something like $699 -- which seems really steep for dohls and framedrums etc -- and people went oooh and aaaah and were just wild about it. For $699. Not a single mention about the price of it. And I always thought it was weird that people who complained that $1000 was too much for Symphobia 1 or 2 (full orchestra at your fingertips from now til the end of time) wouldn't even question the price of a $699 percussion library that just had stuff that already existed everywhere else.
> 
> Horses for courses, I guess. But 299 doesn't seem bad at all because you're paying for the built-in flexibility and scripting. Looks/sounds like a nifty little tool, especially for folks who are under the gun and just need something that works.
> 
> Kerry



Kerry-given unlimited budgets, everyone would simply buy everything, yes?

Since that isn't the case for most here, the value of things is usually determined by a mix of need and perceived value, both of which are highly subjective, but hey-aren't both part of the endless cracker barrel discussion on this forum?


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 13, 2013)

Lex @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> I think this will be a huge hit, only because it gives great sounding percussion tracks to those who can't compose their own with the added illusion that they are somehow involved in creating them.



Same was true 10 years ago with Stormdrum 1 - this is just more flexible.

Jeepers, this big percussion thing has surely reached saturation now. Most of us need it to a greater or lesser degree and we're really spoiled for choice, so many great options out there now. Not sure where else there is to go with it after this current crop is all released. Perhaps not co-incidentally, I think percussion (not needing legato) is probably the easiest to pull off of all the orchestral sections.


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## Ed (Nov 13, 2013)

I actually think this looks like a fun library... Wasnt too interested at the start, but as they got into it with the multisamples and the 8th note/16note stuff (ie, not a prerecorded rhythm) I think it seems to sound much more interesting.

Still, I wont get it for this price, and certainly not with HZ Perc coming along!


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## korgscrew (Nov 13, 2013)

Ed @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Still, I wont get it for this price, and certainly not with HZ Perc coming along!



What's HZ Percussion? Hans Zimmer is doing a percussion library?!? Why haven't I heard about this?!?







:wink: :lol:


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## kotori (Nov 14, 2013)

woodsdenis @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> NI Action Strikes has only 3 gb of data


Since the rhythms have been custom designed for each ensemble there are quite a lot of them. According to my calculations (which I don't guarantee to be correct, but I believe they should be) if you were to play all the Action Strikes rhythms for all ensembles and single instruments after each other and render this to a file the size would be 23 GB. I agree that one shouldn't put too much emphasis on pure size, but if one is to make comparisons to sample-loop-based libraries maybe that number can be useful.

_Full disclosure:_ I'm the script developer for Action Strikes. However, I do not have any financial stake in the sales, so my intention here is just to shed some light on the specs.

_Edited to add_: I forgot about the mic perspectives. A separate mixdown of them - again in this hypothetical case - and adding the single-hit samples would give a total size of ~55 GB uncompressed (assuming a tempo of 120 bpm).

/Nils


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## Daniel James (Nov 14, 2013)

It's not the size that counts, its how you use it.

...and no I'm not talking about penis.

-DJ


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## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2013)

Joseph_M @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> All those people who are feeling, "too dumb and inadequate" are on deadlines of the like you've probably never experienced. Sample libraries like these are often enough a god send.
> 
> Also, libraries like this are useful to beginners in that they help to clarify how certain elements are constructed.
> 
> The only real reason anyone could have a problem with this is that they feel threatened that there is no longer an excuse for mediocrity when such stellar tools are available.



What a great read! This made my day, and it is early in the morning here. :-D :mrgreen:

I will spare me a comment... .


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## woodsdenis (Nov 14, 2013)

Have a look at the HZ perc by Spitfire just announced, a 200 gb lib for £299. I absolutely understand that lib size does not equal quality. The HZ library has been mixed by HZ, Alan Meyerson and Geoff Foster !!!!Somehow I think NI need to look at the pricing of this or be left behind.

To reiterate , I think this is a great product, but in the current marketplace viewed against what is being released it doesn't make sense at this price point.


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## korgscrew (Nov 14, 2013)

woodsdenis @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Have a look at the HZ perc by Spitfire just announced, a 200 gb lib for £299. I absolutely understand that lib size does not equal quality. The HZ library has been mixed by HZ, Alan Meyerson and Geoff Foster !!!!Somehow I think NI need to look at the pricing of this or be left behind.
> quote]
> 
> Exactly!
> ...


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 14, 2013)

woodsdenis @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Have a look at the HZ perc by Spitfire just announced, a 200 gb lib for £299. I absolutely understand that lib size does not equal quality. The HZ library has been mixed by HZ, Alan Meyerson and Geoff Foster !!!!Somehow I think NI need to look at the pricing of this or be left behind.
> 
> To reiterate , I think this is a great product, but in the current marketplace viewed against what is being released it doesn't make sense at this price point.



2 different animals even if the emphasis is on percussion. NI gives you patterns, I am not seeing anything like that on the SF lib, their emphasis appears to be detail and sound.


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## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> woodsdenis @ Thu Nov 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Have a look at the HZ perc by Spitfire just announced, a 200 gb lib for £299. I absolutely understand that lib size does not equal quality. The HZ library has been mixed by HZ, Alan Meyerson and Geoff Foster !!!!Somehow I think NI need to look at the pricing of this or be left behind.
> ...



Yes,

2 different companies with 2 different target groups.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 14, 2013)

I find this discussion fascinating.

If I wasn't fortunate enough to have the funds available to take advantage of the special two week intro price break, I'd be looking at a regular price of around $650 USD for HZ versus $299 for Action Strikes. If not for the intro pricing (and my 25% voucher from Albion) that $650 would be a bit painful for a percussion library...even with Spitfire's reputation and history of quality. With the intro pricing (and hopefully the Albion voucher) it will absolutely be a no brainer.

I realize these products are different animals, but I've _heard_ Action Strikes, have _seen_ some of the clever time-saving and memory-saving scripts (which at least to some degree closes the gap in GB differences). I've not heard a single hit from HZ yet or seen the interface. So I'm fascinated that we're calling $299 USD excessive for Action Strikes, but we're calling $650 USD for a library we've yet to hear a bargain.

Please don't misunderstand. I get that they're different animals. I also share in the faith that Spitfire routinely delivers quality products and I'm in line with everyone else to buy it. I'm just saying that when viewing the *regular pricing* for these two libraries, there's a pretty big difference, and neither really seem too terribly out of line in comparison to one another for what you'd be getting. At *regular price* HZ is now among the highest priced percussion libraries available, but given what (and who) went into it, that's to be expected.

Again, I'm not making any kind of criticism of Spitfire, or their pricing. I'm simply making an observation of the consumer psychology I'm witnessing.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 14, 2013)

Tone Deaf @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> I find this discussion fascinating.
> 
> If I wasn't fortunate enough to have the funds available to take advantage of the special two week intro price break, I'd be looking at a regular price of around $650 USD for HZ versus $299 for Action Strikes. If not for the intro pricing (and my 25% voucher from Albion) that $650 would be a bit painful for a percussion library...even with Spitfire's reputation and history of quality. With the intro pricing (and hopefully the Albion voucher) it will absolutely be a no brainer.
> 
> ...



Point well made, but they are very similar in many respects too. It depends what value you put in midi loops as opposed to content size and the reputation of those involved. Of course we haven't heard any of the HZ library, but the team involved certainly is enough to make it worth looking at. 

I actually don't get why NI didn't do an introductory deal as they normally do. Either way interesting times ahead and to repeat Action Strikes looks like a great product.

Edit. Of course the devs of Action Strikes have a terrific reputation too, just to clarify.


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## zvenx (Nov 14, 2013)

NI Normally has an intro deal?
Never remember that.
I know sometimes they give us stuff at xmas then sell it during the year (Driver for instance)...which products have they had intro offers on?
thanks
rsp


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## woodsdenis (Nov 14, 2013)

zvenx @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> NI Normally has an intro deal?
> Never remember that.
> I know sometimes they give us stuff at xmas then sell it during the year (Driver for instance)...which products have they had intro offers on?
> thanks
> rsp



Sorry my bad, I was thinking of the sales and offers they do.


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## zvenx (Nov 14, 2013)

Ahhh....... I am waiting till black friday to get it.
At least to see if it goes on sale then.
rsp


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## Rob Elliott (Nov 14, 2013)

Christof @ Wed Nov 13 said:


> I agree, Action Strings was a big disappointment, especially the sound.I wonder when they give us an update?



+100


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## germancomponist (Nov 14, 2013)

Rob Elliott @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Christof @ Wed Nov 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, Action Strings was a big disappointment, especially the sound.I wonder when they give us an update?
> ...



May I ask why you bought it? When I heard first the sound I had immediately criticized. For this I was then attacked by many.


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## korgscrew (Nov 14, 2013)

I got it at half price. Its good as a background driving force. Not for upfront stuff.


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## Rob Elliott (Nov 14, 2013)

korgscrew @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> I got it at half price. Its good as a background driving force. Not for upfront stuff.




Got it for half price? How?


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## AC986 (Nov 14, 2013)

They did a half price sale on a load of their libraries a while back and I also picked it up for half price. Haven't used it yet.


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## Vartio (Nov 14, 2013)

korgscrew @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> Are spitfire underselling the library?
> Or
> Are NI overselling the library?


i think its pretty much a conscious decision from spitfire to undersell hz perc 1, one: because its not a complete library but a first part of a series, and two: they know that if priced correctly everyone and their dogs are going to buy it no question about it.

lets not forget that making sample libraries is a shit ton of work and selling any decent library for anything that suggests less than that is just stupid risk from the part of the developer,
...now if you got someone like hz and pals on the team, thats a different story. its really hard to fail with all the hype going on, unless the library is complete bag of turd and the word gets out quickly :roll:
its not cheap or easy to make these libraries, so lets try to respect that fact even if you don't personally identify as a part of the target audience...


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## mk282 (Nov 14, 2013)

korgscrew @ 14.11.2013 said:


> I got it at half price. Its good as a background driving force. Not for upfront stuff.



That is the whole point of Action Strings. It's not meant to be in the front.


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## Christof (Nov 14, 2013)

> May I ask why you bought it? When I heard first the sound I had immediately criticized. For this I was then attacked by many.



I bought it because some beta testers told me that it is very useable and smart.

Anyway, it would be awesome to get a limited (demo mode in Kontakt) trial version of these libraries, once you decide to buy it you get the code for the service center.


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## Mike Marino (Nov 15, 2013)

Oh nooooo, don't stop now; gotta keep this thread moving. Lets get some more people to shit talk a product they're not going to buy.


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## korgscrew (Nov 15, 2013)

Mike Marino @ Fri Nov 15 said:


> Oh nooooo, don't stop now; gotta keep this thread moving. Lets get some more people to shit talk a product they're not going to buy.



:lol:


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## germancomponist (Nov 15, 2013)

Mike Marino @ Fri Nov 15 said:


> Oh nooooo, don't stop now; gotta keep this thread moving. Lets get some more people to [email protected]#t talk a product they're not going to buy.


We have all become silenced after this post:


Joseph_M @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> The only real reason anyone could have a problem with this is that they feel threatened that there is no longer an excuse for mediocrity when such stellar tools are available.



This post is older than one day but I still laugh ... . 

But to be honest, everyone should buy what he like! I have and will have no problem with this lib because I will not buy it. But this is only me!

o-[][]-o


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## Polarity (Nov 15, 2013)

Daniel James @ Wed 13 Nov said:


> I am planning on doing an overview video for this lib really soon, I have been playing with if for a few weeks in preparation. It really is a fun lib!
> 
> It has its own sound and while the video mostly focuses on the 'loops' part of the lib, the individual hits are awesome! it has some great big and small stuff and its got its own sound.
> 
> ...



Very good, I'll eagerly await this new overview video of yours.
This lib interests me for more than a reason...
sure, I like how it sounds and its user interface. It seems very flexible and full of possibilities for customizing the rhythms and the single sounds.
As Daniel has noted there are a lot of single hits sounds...
that, for what I heard in the demos also on NI site, seem to be no less good than those you can find on StormDrum2, for example.

I have myself a lot of percussive libs (EastWest, Cinesamples, ToneHammer, Sonokinetic, Evolve, Project Alpha), some with loops included but perhpas not as many as you all here have (I don't have Spitfire's and new 8Dio or new SoundIron ones).
For some of you this one is the usual boring stuff maybe, but I'm lazy at doing rhythms sometimes and this Action Strikes could be very useful for me for starting new tracks in way I would have not done perhaps.
Will HZ Percussions have some sort of already made loops? I believe not.

About price... for Europeans this AS is 300 Euros (VAT included) (perhaps I will wait for some discount sale, or have to check if I still have a forgotten voucher somewhere) while HZ Perc will be 435 Euros (VAT included) for the first week and than wil go up to 581 Euros (VAT included)... that is almost the double.

And what about the 160 Gb space for the sounds? 
It's huge. I would have to buy a new HD, because my are almost full and I have space reserved for CineStrings and CineBrass bundle that I'm going to buy soon).
So I should add a new HD cost to HZ Perc...
Good for you if you have already the space for it. :mrgreen: 

With just 3.2 Gb of HD space for just the necessary AS seems a good compromise for what I heard and saw till now.
I wait for Daniel's overview now


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## Imzadi (Nov 15, 2013)

Hi guys,

I got the library and I have to say it is pretty good. Way better than Action Strings. In fact, it's what Action Strings should've been. 

It's not that big as far as samples, but it has lots of possibilities with its programing. Very easy to use and it doesn't feel like pre-canned loops since you have lots of customization. It has 3 ways of usage from small to big: single hits, single instrument loops and ensemble loops. Kind of like Damage, but the loops are very customizable (more so than action strings). 

The sound is good. Blends nicely in the mix and is not to compressed either.

With that said I do wish it had more ensembles and loops. It is a pretty complex program, so I think the $300 price is fair. It would be a no-brainer if they offered free add-ons with new ensembles, but I have the feeling thew will also sell them (who knows).

Anyway. Just wanted to give my opinion since is such a particular library and you really have to try it to evaluate it.


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## kotori (Nov 16, 2013)

I wrote a post on KVR with some specs. (eg. number of round-robins and how the rhythms are built up using the single hits and what this means) in response to a post there. Sorry about linking to another forum, but I felt the post was a bit too long to cross-post. If you are interested please go and check it out and then come back here to continue the discussion.


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## Daniel James (Nov 16, 2013)

kotori @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> I wrote a post on KVR with some specs. (eg. number of round-robins and how the rhythms are built up using the single hits and what this means) in response to a post there. Sorry about linking to another forum, but I felt the post was a bit too long to cross-post. If you are interested please go and check it out and then come back here to continue the discussion.



Why don't you just repost them here? then there is no need to link?


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## kotori (Nov 16, 2013)

Daniel James @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> Why don't you just repost them here? then there is no need to link?


As I mentioned I thought it might be a too long to cross-post (besides VI-Control is the best forum so who wouldn't head back here!? ). Anyway here's it is:

_Single hits_ (manually triggered by the user): 
There are 115 round-robin based percussive instruments with 12 RR states and two mic perspectives each. The twelve playable sets of single hits represent mappings of keyboard keys to related percussive instruments (eg. "All Taikos", "Big Cinematic Hits", etc). 

_Single instruments_ (rhythms): 
Includes 65 different individual percussive instruments. Rhythms are played by pressing one of 32 keys. 

_Ensembles_ (rhythms): 
The user can select between 12 different ensembles, i.e. sets of percussive instruments with which to play the rhythms/hits. There is a division into three sections - low, mid and high - and it is possible to specify the ensemble per section, eg. "Taiko Invasion" ensemble in the low section and "Lost Culture" ensemble in the mid and high sections. 

There are 10 slots, activated using keyswitches, to which one can map a so called accent rhythm (there are 105 of those, each with five rhythm variations). Playback of a rhythm variation is started by pressing one of the keys C, D, E, F, G. Depending on the octave they trigger all sections, low section, mid section and high section respectively. It's possible to mix and match, eg. one can trigger the C key rhythm variation in the low and mid sections and the F key variation in the highest section. 

The rhythms are implemented using the single hits. This has a few implications: 1) the user has the same set of samples at his/her disposal as the designers of the built-in rhythms, 2) consistency in sound between manually triggered single hits and the built-in rhythms, 3) when rhythms are changed in real-time there is no problem with audio tails at the switch points. 

Btw. the 105 accent rhythms accessible through the user-interface is really a user-friendly abstraction. Since each of these has five variations and they are custom made for every ensemble there are - counting each section separately - actually 18900 different rhythmic note sequences available "under the hood". All that complexity is handled by the script however, so it's not anything that one has to care about as a user.


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## Daniel James (Nov 16, 2013)

kotori @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> Daniel James @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you just repost them here? then there is no need to link?
> ...



Haha naa there have been MUCH longer posts that this! I was gunna copy it over for you but I didn't want you thinking I was stealing yo shit 

-DJ


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 16, 2013)

tekkentool @ Thu Nov 14 said:


> NI trying to break the world record for "most uninspired sound library"
> 
> These kind of libraries (like Action Strings) seem to be kind of rope a dopey kind of affairs, I don't think they're meant to attract people who already have a library like this. I think they're meant to be flashy and rope people in with the promise of easy results with minimal to 0 effort thanks to the loops.



I always get a bit of a chuckle when I read posts like this. I recall similar posts at another forum when Apple released Logic Pro X (pertaining to the Drummer feature). It seems that some folks like to look down their noses at such features. I don't know if they're threatened by the fact that this sort of technology has the potential to close the gap between what a pro can do versus a novice.

You know, that's what technology does for us. It helps us get things done more easily and more quickly. And technology doesn't discriminate. While it makes things quicker/easier for the pro, it also makes it quicker/easier for the novice. As the pro, you should still be able to get better results out of similar tools, or else continue to find new ways to make yourself more valuable than the novice.

I'd also remind you that while you look down your nose at libraries like Action Strikes, Action Strings, and Logic Pro X Drummer, there were even older, crustier "pros" who once upon a time, looked down their noses at the technology that you would consider pro level today. I'm certain early adopters of DAWs were considered "cheaters" by the pros back then. I'm certain that early adopters of MIDI were considered "cheaters" by the pros back in the early eighties. Can you imagine working without either today?

It's all about perspective.


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2013)

I don't know guys. Think some of you are being pretty harsh. Yes action strings are a joke but this one seems pretty cool. Just the ability to adjust the dynamics of a loop on the fly is enough to count me in. 

But, of course, I think I'm going to be sinking my money into the HZ spitfire effort. The possibilities of that just seem endless to me.

But, I love it when new stuff comes out. Because everybody starts using it and then they forget about the old stuff, so then even the old stuff becomes hip again. Just pulled out some SD1 for a cue the other day. Great set of toms in that thing.


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## deniz (Nov 17, 2013)

Of course, there are many ways to create some good sounding drums tracks.

i own a lot of drums(like many of us) and for me, i have to say, i like the concept of NI Action Strikes. :D 

Many people expecting the same quality like Spitfire Audio HZ and so on but if you reflect the complex Kontakt-scripting of Action Strikes, you'll what i mean.

Sure, you don't get Surround patches and 96Khz etc., but if you are pressure of time, than Action Strikes is the best choice.(unfortunately overpriced) &poor produced release videos.

I Think there are pro and cons for all (upcoming)Drum-Libarys.

For me, i'll wait first for HZ (maybe Ram hungry)

Let's see and hope.

Cheers


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## Waywyn (Nov 18, 2013)

It really amazes me how some people look down on others ...

I recently had a talk with someone who composed 20 minutes on a daily basis - he is actually very happy that libs like these exist!
Of course if you guys would do that, you would be ego and artistically enough to design and create everything by hand and you would have an easy time to still write music!

Stop pretending the world actually IS as you see it with your eyes, but start seeing the world with your eyes by understanding that you are just a minor fraction of the big picture! ... if you know what I mean!


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 18, 2013)

josejherring @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> But, I love it when new stuff comes out. Because everybody starts using it and then they forget about the old stuff, so then even the old stuff becomes hip again. Just pulled out some SD1 for a cue the other day. Great set of toms in that thing.



Agree with you there Jose. SD1 still is a great library. As is EWQLSO. Nick Phoenix has such a gift for sample libraries. I wonder what he's up to.....

Edit: ...and not forgetting Voices of the Apocalypse


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## Christof (Nov 18, 2013)

I think it's not wrong to use these out of the box libraries, it's a great time saver of course.
If I have a cool track and need some cool percussion or a drummer I call a musician to play for me, probably I would tell him to improvise and see what works best.

Same with this library, it's a great tool.


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## Polarity (Nov 18, 2013)

yep, why shouldn't I get help from someone who knows better than me how to play percussions? :wink:


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2013)

Waywyn @ Mon Nov 18 said:


> It really amazes me how some people look down on others ...
> 
> I recently had a talk with someone who composed 20 minutes on a daily basis - he is actually very happy that libs like these exist!
> Of course if you guys would do that, you would be ego and artistically enough to design and create everything by hand and you would have an easy time to still write music!
> ...



Ok, this is going to rub some people the wrong way, so fair warning. :wink: 

20 minutes a day? Ok. I have to posit the theory that writing 20 minutes of music a day is much less about composition than it is assembling existing compositions (loops, etc.)

I'm not putting a value judgement on it as I am all about musicians making a living in whatever way they can, but i feel the need to draw the distinction.


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## Christof (Nov 18, 2013)

20 minutes per day!
Give me his telephone number, I want to know how to do this!
I can do 10 minutes maybe.


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 18, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Mon Nov 18 said:


> 20 minutes a day? Ok. I have to posit the theory that writing 20 minutes of music a day is much less about composition than it is assembling existing compositions (loops, etc.)
> 
> I'm not putting a value judgement on it as I am all about musicians making a living in whatever way they can, but i feel the need to draw the distinction.



That really is going some, eh? I figure 10 mins a day is about what is realistically achievable for me actually composing.

That said, I did some music for my kids daft videos they do where as an exercise I barely even watched it through first, using multis etc. I think I did 3 minutes in an hour or something. A 10 hour day of 30 minutes of material! I figured I could score a 90 minute movie in three days that way, but a) there's little doubt it would be fairly rubbish and b) I'd probably then go straight to intensive care. Actually, a limiting factor in my case would be my mediocre at best keyboard skills, and impoverished formal training - I suspect someone far more talented than I could pull it off even quicker or just plain better.

So given all that - and that of course you'd jump at all available shortcuts, such as Action Strikes for a chase scene and a couple of stabs on a Symphobia multi - then I'd probably concede it was possible, as opposed to just assembling loops.

Oh and as a ps - does twenty minutes a day mean screen time or actual music? If its screen time and only half is actual music, then definitely possible, without the assistance of substances.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 18, 2013)

I don't really write with these kind of driving percussion rhythms, but if I did I think I might give this a try. It looks a lot of fun, and there's a lot to be said for having fun.

I remember Bruce Richardson saying once that you should allow yourself an hour of experimenting and having fun with your tools every day, just twiddling knobs to see what they do and exploring. I always try and remember that.


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## Waywyn (Nov 18, 2013)

You know, this is actually what I am refering to. Most of you cannot imagine that someone has to write this amount and it is automatically rubbish for you 

Why? Why always connect the "next to each other dots" inside your own brain instead connecting the "next logical to each other" dots?
Could it be that someone writes underscore music for a 30 mins daily tv show, which contains around 20 mins of music for each show and you just have this one day to write, because the next day you have to work for the next episode? Disregarding if you call it music or not.
As I mentioned this example many times before. If someone approaches you by saying "I paint", many of you guys rightaway have this pic of this artist in front of the canvas. If he says, he has to paint 20 squaremeters a day, you instantly go asking: How the hell does he do this? ... and that his pics probably suck ... but not many start to think in the direction that it sometimes is simply about painting a white wall ... and nothing else!

... and to be honest, white wall or Picasso. The job is the job ... and if it is done well, the customer is pleased and the money is ok. All good, right?


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## AC986 (Nov 18, 2013)

Writing 20 minutes of music a day must be a lot like painting a wall white.


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 18, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Nov 18 said:


> I don't really write with these kind of driving percussion rhythms, but if I did I think I might give this a try. It looks a lot of fun, and there's a lot to be said for having fun.
> 
> I remember Bruce Richardson saying once that you should allow yourself an hour of experimenting and having fun with your tools every day, just twiddling knobs to see what they do and exploring. I always try and remember that.



Yea Stephen, but Bruce was on Giga Studio...Bad Mod!...slaps own hand.

you are 45, you know longer have to make excuses....go have fun...


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## j_kranz (Nov 18, 2013)

Imzadi @ Fri Nov 15 said:


> In fact, it's what Action Strings should've been.



Couldn't agree more... I'm enjoying it too, and the functionality of it IMO works much better in terms of percussion than strings.

Just my couple of pennies.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 18, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Mon Nov 18 said:


> Yea Stephen, but Bruce was on Giga Studio...Bad Mod!...slaps own hand.
> 
> you are 45, you know longer have to make excuses....go have fun...





I hope Bruce is OK. I haven't seen him post for a long time.


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## R. Soul (Nov 18, 2013)

I wish Stylus RMX had what Action strikes has; dynamic loops, which are percussion focused. RMX virtually has no 'action percussion' - you can count the loops on one hand I think, and they are not dynamic at all.

I wonder when the first 50% off sale would be, cause $300 is just too much for me? Black friday perhaps :D


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## Ed (Nov 18, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Nov 18 said:


> I hope Bruce is OK. I haven't seen him post for a long time.



I see him post on FB sometimes. 

Remember that takio lib he was going to make? Ah long time ago


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## germancomponist (Nov 18, 2013)

Ed @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Mon Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope Bruce is OK. I haven't seen him post for a long time.
> ...



Yes, and then Giga / Tascam closed the doors..... . Must have been a shock for Bruce. I remember a first demo.


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## rgames (Nov 18, 2013)

Do you guys really think this is a time-saver? I feel the same way about this as I did about Action Strings - I think it will actually take more time to use than just playing/writing what you want.

Seriously - how long does it take to play the patterns you hear in the video? It would take me more time to find the particular combination of rhythms and instruments I want.

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2013)

Waywyn @ Mon Nov 18 said:


> You know, this is actually what I am refering to. Most of you cannot imagine that someone has to write this amount and it is automatically rubbish for you
> 
> Why? Why always connect the "next to each other dots" inside your own brain instead connecting the "next logical to each other" dots?
> Could it be that someone writes underscore music for a 30 mins daily tv show, which contains around 20 mins of music for each show and you just have this one day to write, because the next day you have to work for the next episode? Disregarding if you call it music or not.
> ...



Actually, I said nothing of the sort. I respect your work, Alex, but I've been doing this for a long time, and I repeat- if one is "writing" 20 minutes of music a day, one is doing more assembling existing loops and phrases than writing a whole bunch of notes. I will also repeat that I put no value judgment on that-I use plenty of loops. I simply believe in calling a thing what it is, and if anyone is preaching about stuff in this thread, it seems to be you.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 19, 2013)

Ed @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Mon Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope Bruce is OK. I haven't seen him post for a long time.
> ...



Thanks Ed, that's good to know


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## Waywyn (Nov 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Waywyn @ Mon Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > You know, this is actually what I am refering to. Most of you cannot imagine that someone has to write this amount and it is automatically rubbish for you
> ...



Okay, sorry. I use fuck and suck quite often, so of course you said nothing like that, but it feels like this somewhere in the back: Music like this can't be music. (therefore it sucks) So it was more my perception! 

... however, you are totally right with this! Of course there must be more assembling going on that actually composing because otherwise he couldn't make it ... and on the other hand, the show wouldn't need anything else. It is just about to have some "stuff" going on ... or to put it more simply, we are talking about having a white wall in order to have a simple acoustic background for the actors!


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## Lpp (Nov 19, 2013)

Wow, will the "creative artist" vs. "loop-mangler" discussion ever come to an end ?

I´ve written one of the demo-tracks for AS, which is also used in the intro-video. I´ve also written a lot of epic music in my life. I was always thankful for percussion-loops and still am, as percussion will never come easy to me. 
But I must also say, that I never used one loop and was set. As always, it is about combining different loops, layer them, arrange them, treat them sonically aso. 

Same goes for any other loops. If I use Action Strings, I always use 3 patches altogether at least. And I almost always combine different rhythms.
I don´t know, if I´m faster with loops than without but I can definitely say, that it sounds a lot more professional with the loops and I have absolutely no problem with this as I won´t regard me as an artist anyways. More a service-provider, who can deliver for sure regardless if the muse kisses or not.

Having said that, Action Strikes is the most flexible loop-product I ever had and it sounds really solid. Love it or leave it...


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2013)

Lpp @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> ... I don´t know, if I´m faster with loops than without but I can definitely say, that it sounds a lot more professional with the loops.... .



Huh? So if we want professional sounding compositions we better use loops?


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## Lex (Nov 19, 2013)

Waywyn @ Mon Nov 18 said:


> ... and to be honest, white wall or Picasso. The job is the job ... and if it is done well, the customer is pleased and the money is ok. All good, right?



Absolutely! I can't wait to be able to go to Louvre again and see all those well done white walls painted through out the history. 



alex


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## kotori (Nov 19, 2013)

It's interesting to follow this discussion, but I wonder if there isn't, perhaps for historical reasons, an inclination to view this as a dichotomy (creative vs. uncreative, or individual samples vs. pre-made loops) where it might be more useful to look at it as a continuum.

Action Strikes was produced with the aim of making it very easy to switch rhythms in real-time, so mixing together many small parts from different sources takes very little effort and makes the result more distinctive. There is control over expression and accentuation separately, which would not be possible with traditional loops. In addition the user has the full palette of manually triggered single hits at his/her disposal. Since the rhythms are based on these same single hits and are not pre-recorded loops, one doesn't have to worry about problems like an increase in expression unrealistically affecting the tail of a hit, or the tail of a preceding hit still reverberating at the time a new rhythm in started.

Taken together this increased flexibility, granularity and ability to shape the sound should make it both possible and easier to utilize pre-made rhythms in more creative ways than would have been the case with traditional static loop samples. Hopefully reduced friction in the workflow and the possibility to directly hear the results will also encourage experimentation.

In my view Action Strikes, with its single hits and rhythms, is represented both at the "individual samples" end of the continuous scale and somewhere _between_ the extremes of "individual samples" and "traditional pre-recorded loops". Again, as the script developer for Action Strikes I'm not impartial, but I thought I'd share these reflections.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 19, 2013)

Lpp @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Wow, will the "creative artist" vs. "loop-mangler" discussion ever come to an end ?
> 
> 
> Having said that, Action Strikes is the most flexible loop-product I ever had and it sounds really solid. Love it or leave it...



Around here never :D The "I am a composer would never lower myself to use loops" brigade are still here, They of course will use individual string samples performed by top LA session musicians in top flight studios with impunity claiming complete originality for their efforts. Using someone else's performance, programming skills and sound ( but not note/rhythmic progressions ) is ok apparently.

Anyway Action Strikes is cool and does sound good, my only gripe is its price, I think NI missed an opportunity with it with HZ around the corner.. Best of luck with it.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 19, 2013)

[quote="woodsdenis @ Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:46 The "I am a composer would never lower myself to use loops" brigade are still [/quote]

Where? I haven't seen one mention of that in this thread. The only thing close was me saying that is was virtually impossible to "write" 20 minutes a day, and that came down to assembling loops and phrases more than writing that many notes. If you disagree with that, please sit down for three days, use no loops or phrases, and write 60 minutes of even ok music.

So now I'll say it for a THIRD time- I use plenty of loops, but I know the difference between assembling bunches of loops and pre - written phrases and actually entering/ playing a whole lotta notes. The latter tends to be much more time consuming. I've done both hundreds and hundreds of times- based on my own experience, I don't see how this point is even arguable.


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## Sopranos (Nov 19, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Lpp @ Tue Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > ... I don´t know, if I´m faster with loops than without but I can definitely say, that it sounds a lot more professional with the loops.... .
> ...



Mr. Negativity strikes again and doesn't even bother to read?

He clearly stated that HE/HIS sounds a lot more professional with the loops. He never suggested you or anyone else would. It's simple really, if you don't like loops then don't use them? Those that do will continue to use them regardless of your take on them.

Go back and read his key word in the statement you quoted is "I'm"... not you or anyone else.


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## Maestro77 (Nov 19, 2013)

I _may_ have grabbed this at $199, but $299 is just too much.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 19, 2013)

Everyone is entitled to choose how they work I think.

Many times I've see it written that people who use synth 'Presets' are lazy and uncreative for example. I think the problem comes in the use of the word 'Presets'. It is such an unmusical word. Washing machines have 'Presets'. A synth has 'Instruments' in my book.

A talented sound designer has carefully crafted an instrument for me to play. They have decided exactly where the filter should be set, the modulation, it's playability in general, using their trained and skillful imaginations and ears, and delivered me a whole collection of unique and never before heard 'instruments'. And I can play any one of those 'instruments' and react to it and compose with it in a unique way all of my own, without necessarily tweaking it or even understanding how it was put together.

I no more feel lazy or uncreative using it, than I think of a violinist as being lazy because they did not, and probably could not, build the violin they are playing.

'Loops' get a similar bad reputation as 'Presets' do.

Just a point of view from a 'classically trained' musician, who enjoys a sonic adventure in the land of synths and loops from time to time.


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2013)

Sopranos @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Lpp @ Tue Nov 19 said:
> ...



Because I don't like using loops I am not a Mr. Negativity, boy!

With no word I said that he suggested me/others to use loops, but when he says:*"I can definitely say, that it sounds a lot more professional with the loops...."*, then my indirect question to this should be allowed. Yes, no?

o-[][]-o


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 19, 2013)

Move along, nothing to see here....


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2013)

Oopssss, nothing to see here, too.


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## Sopranos (Nov 19, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Sopranos @ Tue Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Tue Nov 19 said:
> ...



You did, in fact, say words that he was suggesting you or others to use loops.... you said precisely "So if *WE* want professional sounding compositions *WE* better use loops?" That certainly implies that your take is that he is suggesting you, too, should use loops when he never suggested that at all.

So, NO - I don't think your indirect question was warranted at all when he never implied it that you, too, should use loops for professional sounding compositions.

You can't quote HALF his sentence and then change the context to your liking. Once again, your forgot to look at the most important part of his sentence - he said "I'm"... not you or anyone else. Are you getting it, boy?


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2013)

Sopranos @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> You did, in fact, say words that he was suggesting you or others to use loops.... you said precisely "So if *WE* want professional sounding compositions *WE* better use loops?" That certainly implies that your take is that he is suggesting you, too, should use loops when he never suggested that at all.
> 
> So, NO - I don't think your indirect question was warranted at all when he never implied it that you, too, should use loops for professional sounding compositions.
> 
> You can't quote HALF his sentence and then change the context to your liking. Once again, your forgot to look at the most important part of his sentence - he said "I'm"... not you or anyone else. Are you getting it, boy?



Huh, to be honest, to me it sounds a little bit strange when a pro composer says that his music sounds more professional if he uses loops. 

And after I read this I did not *say* it but asked him if we all should use loops... .

But enough now. As I said before, evryone should use what he likes! o/~


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## woodsdenis (Nov 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> [quote="woodsdenis @ Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:46 The "I am a composer would never lower myself to use loops" brigade are still
> 
> Where? I haven't seen one mention of that in this thread. The only thing close was me saying that is was virtually impossible to "write" 20 minutes a day, and that came down to assembling loops and phrases more than writing that many notes. If you disagree with that, please sit down for three days, use no loops or phrases, and write 60 minutes of even ok music.
> 
> So now I'll say it for a THIRD time- I use plenty of loops, but I know the difference between assembling bunches of loops and pre - written phrases and actually entering/ playing a whole lotta notes. The latter tends to be much more time consuming. I've done both hundreds and hundreds of times- based on my own experience, I don't see how this point is even arguable.



I am certainly not directing that at you Larry, around here means the VI forum in total, although there are as usual references to pre-made loops and end of originality etc in this thread.

Personally I don't care how someone composes or what tools they use, what I dont like is an elitist attitude from people who use samples all the time anyway, even though they are not tonal progressions or rhythmic loops. 

Cmon for example HZ perc is recorded in Air Lyndehurst by Geoff Foster, mixed by Alan Meyerson and performed by the best percussionist in the world. If they are on my tracks it is going to add that depth of talent onto them, I acknowledge that and accept it. 

I think it completely disingenuous to take a high moral stance and criticize any one who uses the digital medium in any form if I do so myself, its selective elitism. I would listen to that point of view from someone who records with live orchestras only, at least they would be coming from an honest and defendable point of view.

Sorry I cant stand double standards and elitism.

I couldn't write 20 mins of music either a day I am not talented enough, if some one can, who cares wether they use loops and DX7 or a nose flute.


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 19, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Everyone should use what he likes! o/~



Unless they're a modern composer, right?  

Oh this is all very tiresome, but I'm bored on a long train journey so what the hell. Of course these loops might sound better. If loops have been played by professional percussionists at the top of their game, it stands to reason that they might sound better than, say, me bashing away hamfistedly on an es88, what with having no discernible percussion skills and all (not that it stops me, mind).

In fact, that there I suspect a major reason why mockups are frequently not as good as they could be. Used to be that composers used to, ya know, compose. Write a bunch of notes on staves, where they would be written out for musicians who then played them on phenomenally expensive instruments, with all their years of experience and skill, to make those notes SING. We've just kicked all that out, and are expected to have the same level of craft and musicianship as every member of the orchestra, while wrecking the craft utterly by ignoring all that blowing, scraping and hitting that goes with those funny old instruments and replacing them all with a 200 buck set of horizontal electrical switches badly assembled in Taiwan. Hardly surprising that we usually fall short, really.

Which is why some people like phrase based stuff. You can say as often as you like that the musicianship comes though in individual notes and fragments of notes, and no doubt that's true to a point, but gadzooks it comes over a lot more powerfully when those notes are actually put together. Of course for us composers it comes at a dear price - you've got the musicianship back, but oops at the extent of the actual composing bit.

Untuned percussion is a strange halfway house. Look ma - no notes. So it doesn't offend our delicate sensibilities so much - we still get to write our precious notes while - in this case - we get a leg up on musicianship. It's still a cheat of course - its still somebody else's rhythm. 

But hey/. It is getting pretty silly to have these same endless debates each time a library comes along that uses a multi or a loop or anything more than a trill in terms of articulations. It's not your bag, Gunther - fine - why endlessly debate it which those who don't have a problem with it?


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2013)

Guy, I am not endlessly debating about using loops or not. Read the whole thread here. 
My comment was about the "more professional sounding" thing... .

o-[][]-o


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 19, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Guy, I am not endlessly debating about using loops or not. Read the whole thread here.
> My comment was about the "more professional sounding" thing... .
> 
> o-[][]-o



...which I do think I addressed.


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## AC986 (Nov 19, 2013)

o[])


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 19, 2013)

Complete aside, but I don't think I even write 20 minutes in a month.

I take my hat off to anyone that can produce 20 minutes a day.


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2013)

Hi,

I predict NI will be selling a profitable number of _Action Strikes _ :lol: 

imho. it is a very useful tool to have at your disposal, especially when time, and creativity are needed fast to produce a trailer, or action cue ..etc. 

I think the negative aspect is a little bit of sacrifice in _originality_ (as far as the rhythm track goes), compared to performing everything in your DAW using actual drum sounds, with no helping tools that actually produce the rhythm track's midi note data. 

From my observation, it looks like Action Strings offers various degrees of flexibility, so, it's up to the user to use what it offers as needed, to maintain a degree of originality that is satisfactory. 

Actually, I think it is a brilliant product, I have not seen anything similar on the market. and wouldn't mind buying it. The price is a bit high, but given the unique tools it offers, I feel it might be worth the extra $99. Plus .. It sounds very good :D 

Just my humble 3 Cents opinion regrading NI's new _Action Strikes_.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## NYC Composer (Nov 19, 2013)

[quote="woodsdenis @ Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:21 

Sorry I cant stand double standards and elitism.

I couldn't write 20 mins of music either a day I am not talented enough, if some one can, who cares wether they use loops and DX7 or a nose flute.[/quote]

There is nothing elitist in saying there is a difference between writing individual notes and assembling loops and phrases. They are demonstrably different, and I can say that definitively because I have done both many times. I'm reasonably fast, a pretty good keyboard player and when grinding it out I can maybe write 5 minutes a day on my better days- assuming I'm not holding down a pad and moving a filter or some such. Writing and orchestrating simply take more time than assembling loops and phrases, and even more so if scored to picture.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> [quote="woodsdenis @ Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:21
> 
> Sorry I cant stand double standards and elitism.
> 
> ...





Dont get me wrong I agree with you, there is a difference between writing and performing music and using prerecorded loops, of course. Scoring to picture is an art and discipline by itself. Lets park that discussion there.

My point is simply this, someone who uses the new Cine Strings as an example, recorded by Dennis Sands, in Sony, using the best LA session musicians. These are precorded samples with prerecorded legato transitions and half /whole note trills using someone else's engineering/production/musical and software writing talent . There is never even a hint of discussion about how unnatural this is, and how we should "play" the trills and never use legato transitions because they are pre baked. That would be obviously silly.

I find it equally as silly that those very same composers who would use CineStrings would the on the other hand start pontificating about Action Strikes/Strings or whatever. I would entertain an argument from somebody who uses only real musicians, that they are different for example. 

Modern composers like me can't/won't sit on the fence judging other people or products , when I use the same technology myself. The elitism comes when composers think that their use of technology is somehow better/more musical/superior than others, I call that BS sorry.

We all use the tricks and advantages that modern digital technology affords use, I don't look down it, thinks its better or worse, or condemn any of it.

This forum called the Virtual Instruments Control, specifically for Virtual Instruments!!!!! .
Does no one else see the irony in discussions about how one VI is ok, and the other isn't, is crazy.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 19, 2013)

muziksculp @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I predict NI will be selling a profitable number of _Action Strikes _ :lol:
> 
> ...



I agree with your points, but would add that in my opinion, the "follow the temp" mentality that large numbers of composers have been forced to adopt has done far more to stifle originality than any sample library will ever do. A library like Action Strike simply allows you to "follow the temp" more quickly than banging it out on individual keys.


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## Daniel James (Nov 19, 2013)

There is only one way for it....A LOOPOFF

Gunther must write a short action piece with no loops VS Alex Pffefer with as many loops as possible.

Also as an Englishman I get the feeling that I should, by default, enjoy watching the Germans squabble with each other over nothing  Jks I love you really.

-DJ


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2013)

Tone Deaf @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> muziksculp @ Tue Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



Yes, I agree with your added statement. Speed, and Productivity are quite valuable these days in music for film/trailers, ..etc. Production.


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## germancomponist (Nov 20, 2013)

Daniel James @ Wed Nov 20 said:


> There is only one way for it....A LOOPOFF
> 
> Gunther must write a short action piece with no loops VS Alex Pffefer with as many loops as possible.
> 
> ...



 o-[][]-o 

I have fair to say that I am a trained drummer and record my own drum tracks via an Alesis drum to midi tool.


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## Lpp (Nov 20, 2013)

Ooops, had the "send me an email when a reply is posted"-button off. Quite some more stuff here since my post.

Ok, to shed some light to my german mate... let´s assume I was a painter, which was also drawn for a comparison earlier in this thread. I want to paint a high quality picture for a client. Unfotunately, I am no good at building a canvas nor am I very quick at crafting oil colors myself. What to do ? Wait, I go to someone who can do this and I buy an excellent canvas and the brightest and most saturated colors I can get. My picture will now be of a higher quality than if I made these things myself, right ?
Ok, no one these days demands a painter to make all his tools himself ( including brushes and the likes ), but you get the idea...

Back to MYSELF... to be honest, I´m good at melodies, can play some decent keyboard-parts, can mimick various accompaniment-techniques. I can play a half-decent live-trumpet, some flute and bang some occasional percussion. I am not good at epic percussion-beds, playing and singing all kinds of ethnic phrases and some other special stuff. So I get myself help from others. My budget don´t allow live musicians to help me with this ( which would be the highest level of professionalism obviously :shock: ), so I buy me almost every bit of loops and phrases I can afford ( which is the lowest level of of professionalism if not totally uncreative obviously :mrgreen: )
This leads me to the illusion?, my tracks sound more professional with these tools.


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## Henning (Nov 20, 2013)

Both Alexes (Pfeffer and Röder) have described and argued a musical reality that I live in, too. And I guess most people making their living scoring today's TV / game music, find themselves in situations where they would just like to have a little more time to add one or two finishing brush strokes to their work (By the way this painting metaphor thingy reminds me of the old Bob Ross TV series, anyone else? ) . But how often our little musical jewel is ripped away right from under our fingers by a stiff deadline. So naturally I try to alot as much time as I can to do the stuff that's important to me (could be a nice action melody or just a meandering set of strange progressions in some other case). Using loops or even prerecorded orchestral fx (I love those in the Albion series by the way) or even chords (boy, has Cineorch saved my behind for quite some times!) as a backdrop for the composition helps me find the time for the important parts of the composition. And actually I love using this stuff! Do I feel bad about it? Nope, not for a bit. It's part of todays toolset of our trade, love it or hate it. Of course, they are tools, mind. They are not meant to be the whole composition. When you listen to the music of both Alexes for example you experience the compositional craft and the love they put in their pieces in the way they use these tools to create their very own music in their very own style.

OK, and now let's watch some Bob Ross


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## Lpp (Nov 20, 2013)

where is the like-button ?


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## Pierre (Nov 20, 2013)

Hi everyone,

it's nice to read so many different views on our new "Action Strike" library. I have noticed that this whole thread is more or less going into the direction: "is Action Strikes good or evil because it is a Loop library?". 

While I don't want to take any sides here concerning loops vs. single note libs I would still like to mention that Action Strikes is not only a Loop Library. 

Easy accessible and highly flexible (!) loops & patterns play indeed an important role in our concepts when we plan new libraries, because our composers often have the need to write music fast, so in a way we are producing libraries that come very handy for our daily job, and then we hope that other people have the same need. 

However, Action Strikes has a whole big set of single note Percussion instruments. 
- You can play single sounds to every loop / pattern 
- About one third of the whole library consists of traditional single articulations, that are put together in "Hit Sets"
- Nearly all single articulations have 12 round robins (!) and are recorded with up to 10 different velocity layers. 

The tutorial Video is pretty long, and the single articulation stuff only comes in the last part. If you want, you can check the video "Discover Action Strikes" starting at 8:32 about the single articulations mapping. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qED4Vc6Gk

And here is a list of all instruments you can play as single articulations (sorry, you might need to scroll down, because the list is so Long )

Cinematic Ensembles:
Big Boom Ensemble
Designed Ensemble Hits
Big Tom Ensemble
Mid Tom Ensemble
Concert Tom Ensemble
Snare Ensemble
Taiko Full Ensemble
Taiko Low Ensemble
Taiko Mid Ensemble
Taiko High Ensemble
Lethal Ethno Ensemble
Natural Ethno Ensemble
High Ethno Ensemble

Orchestral Percussion:
Big Gran Cassa
Medium Gran Cassa
Concert Tom Low
Concert Tom Mid1
Concert Tom Mid2
Concert Tom High
Snare
Field Drum
Piatti
Cymbals
Tamtam
Anvils
Chains
Tambourines
Orchestral Shaker
Woodblock
Ratchet
Vibraslap

Modern Percussion: 
Bassdrum
3 big toms 
Modern Shaker
Hihat
Crash Cymbals
China Cymbals
Rimshots
Windchimes
16 different Hybrid Tikitaka Sounds

SFX:
Aquaphone
Dark Drones
Heartbeat
Crasher
Rainmaker
Mystic Rust
Magic Triangle
Metal Box
Metal Sticks
Hybrid Flaps and Punches

Ethno Percussion:
Taiko Low Solo
Taiko Mid Solo
Taiko Shimer Solo
Indian Drums
DounDoun
Small Djembe
Bongo
Hand Drum
Bamboo Sticks
Maracas,
African shaker
Cajita


So really, Action Strikes is both: a full single articulation percussion library + an extensive collection of (hopefully) really cool Percussion pattern & Loops for scoring. 

Cheers,

Pierre


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## germancomponist (Nov 20, 2013)

Pierre @ Wed Nov 20 said:


> However, Action Strikes has a whole big set of single note Percussion instruments.
> - You can play single sounds to every loop / pattern
> - About one third of the whole library consists of traditional single articulations, that are put together in "Hit Sets"
> - Nearly all single articulations have 12 round robins (!) and are recorded with up to 10 different velocity layers.
> ...


And these sound good, also the editable options are well thought out, I have to say. I had not watched the video until the end.

So, for the "not-using-loops-generation" you maybe could split the lib into two... . 

But for this now it is the wrong timing because we all are awaiting the HZ library.

Thanks for the hint, Pierre!


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## Waywyn (Nov 20, 2013)

Lex @ Tue Nov 19 said:


> Waywyn @ Mon Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > ... and to be honest, white wall or Picasso. The job is the job ... and if it is done well, the customer is pleased and the money is ok. All good, right?
> ...



But to be honest, you know that this is not true and will never happen.
I mean look, back in the whatever century, there have been working guys too. There were some musicians entertaining a king, a lord or whatever (the white wall painters ... they simply did a job and made a living from it), while others created that memorable work that we still know about it and even better, being able to perform it, since scores are available.

We both 100% know that this is going on today too. There is very memorable, sohpisticated and valuable work being written today, but to be honest, I would never say that about a lot of movie, tv show, trailer, industry tracks incl. my own music. I give a big shit if my music will be remembered in a hundred years nor do I have the aim to be remembered. Ideally during my life I made a good living, had a lot of fun, remember mostly happy moments when I am old and contributed some little stuff for upcoming composers! That's it ... and you will always find the masters in the Louvre and white wall painters out there on the average building. Once in a while a master will turn into a white wall painter, while there may be a gem from the white wall painters hopping over to the Louvre since s/he did some outstanding work!


Cheers,

a very happy white wall painter who will never put his family's (and own's) life to risk to only become that "to remembered Louvre" artist!


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## mr (Nov 20, 2013)

Waywyn @ Wed Nov 20 said:


> But to be honest, you know that this is not true and will never happen.
> I mean look, back in the whatever century, there have been working guys too. There were some musicians entertaining a king, a lord or whatever (the white wall painters ... they simply did a job and made a living from it), while others created that memorable work that we still know about it and even better, being able to perform it, since scores are available.
> 
> We both 100% know that this is going on today too. There is very memorable, sohpisticated and valuable work being written today, but to be honest, I would never say that about a lot of movie, tv show, trailer, industry tracks incl. my own music. I give a big shit if my music will be remembered in a hundred years nor do I have the aim to be remembered. Ideally during my life I made a good living, had a lot of fun, remember mostly happy moments when I am old and contributed some little stuff for upcoming composers! That's it ... and you will always find the masters in the Louvre and white wall painters out there on the average building. Once in a while a master will turn into a white wall painter, while there may be a gem from the white wall painters hopping over to the Louvre since s/he did some outstanding work!
> ...



+1

Very true, thanks for that!


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 20, 2013)

Waywyn @ Wed Nov 20 said:


> Lex @ Tue Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Mon Nov 18 said:
> ...



Some nice points here. To add a few (had to laugh at the working for kings bit), there is likely a much, much larger percentage of folks today who fit your "working composer" definition than in centuries/decades past. I mean really, how many kings were there at any given time? Now everyone with a computer is composing.

In all seriousness, I think what you're talking about is the difference between creating music as an artistic endeavor or creating it as a job. We make choices. You can do one or the other, very few are able to do both. 

I think that bit about putting your life or your family's life at risk may be a bit dramatic. You could always choose to pick up an actual brush and paint an actual wall white and no one would starve. If a person chooses to make a living by composing filler music, or composing unoriginal pieces that "follow the temp" then that person has to some degree made the decision to give up art for money. Nothing wrong with that if that's your choice.

But some of the debate here as to whether using libraries like Action Strikes makes you less of a composer or makes your music less original seems a bit silly to me. If you've already taken the trading art for cash approach, using Action Strikes doesn't change that much in my mind.


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## germancomponist (Nov 20, 2013)

When I was talking about loops with a good friend of mine some weeks ago he ventured his look into the future and said: 

"Soon there will be loop libraries with all the different instruments. More and more complete patterns will be offered. More and more fully arranged patterns will be offered. Things like "band in the box" will be perfected. And someday the producers/directors will get the idea that they do not need any more composers. Because it has become so easy to tinker music. ... People will get used to bad music and no one will miss or ask for a good solo etc.. . Look around you, as it has already caught other areas. ..."

Let us all hope that he is wrong! o=< 

o/~


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## uselessmind (Nov 20, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 20 said:


> When I was talking about loops with a good friend of mine some weeks ago he ventured his look into the future and said:
> 
> "Soon there will be loop libraries with all the different instruments. More and more complete patterns will be offered. More and more fully arranged patterns will be offered. Things like "band in the box" will be perfected. And someday the producers/directors will get the idea that they do not need any more composers. Because it has become so easy to tinker music. ... People will get used to bad music and no one will miss or ask for a good solo etc.. . Look around you, as it has already caught other areas. ..."
> 
> ...



Surely it's just a matter of how soon it i will happen.
That is if it hasn't already.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 20, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 20 said:


> When I was talking about loops with a good friend of mine some weeks ago he ventured his look into the future and said:
> 
> "Soon there will be loop libraries with all the different instruments. More and more complete patterns will be offered. More and more fully arranged patterns will be offered. Things like "band in the box" will be perfected. And someday the producers/directors will get the idea that they do not need any more composers. Because it has become so easy to tinker music. ... *People will get used to bad music and no one will miss or ask for a good solo etc.. .* Look around you, as it has already caught other areas. ..."
> 
> ...


 It's already arrived.
Music is more visual than aural these days.
There is more demand for music. When things are mass produced, quality always suffers.


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## Sopranos (Nov 21, 2013)

All while technology advances and loop libraries are more evident and available, so do expectations go up. In other words, the listeners will still appreciate and demand the best in trained musicians.

There will always be a need for quality composers. People will never just "get used to bad music" or accept anything less than progress. Give consumers some credit.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 21, 2013)

Sopranos @ Thu Nov 21 said:


> All while technology advances and loop libraries are more evident and available, so do expectations go up. In other words, the listeners will still appreciate and demand the best in trained musicians.
> 
> There will always be a need for quality composers. People will never just "get used to bad music" or accept anything less than progress. Give consumers some credit.



If you've looked at the pop charts at any time during the past 50 years or so I think that you would have seen that a fairly large number of consumers have gotten used to bad music long before we could generate it so easily with computers.

My smarminess aside, you are right that there will be some music lovers who will continue to demand more, but I still think there are a lot of people who simply lap up whatever's most heavily marketed.


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## procreative (Nov 24, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 20 said:


> When I was talking about loops with a good friend of mine some weeks ago he ventured his look into the future and said:
> 
> "Soon there will be loop libraries with all the different instruments. More and more complete patterns will be offered. More and more fully arranged patterns will be offered. Things like "band in the box" will be perfected. And someday the producers/directors will get the idea that they do not need any more composers. Because it has become so easy to tinker music. ... People will get used to bad music and no one will miss or ask for a good solo etc.. . Look around you, as it has already caught other areas. ..."
> 
> ...



Well for all those here feeling precious about this. When you next decide to do a promo for yourself or create a website, will you be using a professional designer? Or will you be grabbing some images and templates from one of those Themoforest type sites?

Every industry has suffered at some point from the I.T. revolution. Speaking as someone whose other job is in the design industry I can say without doubt that now that everyone has a copy of InDesign and Photoshop and some templates from some site they can do a job themselves. Not always as well but good enough for them.

And now websites are the norm, who needs that glossy printed brochure any more?

Or what about those expensive recording studios now we all have our DAWs and sample libraries? Who needs them?

I am sure studios like Avatar are thankful?


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## rJames (Nov 24, 2013)

procreative @ Sun Nov 24 said:


> Slave to buying too many sample libraries, then spending months trying to work them!


 :D And trying to remember all of those Omni, Massive, Absynth, Zebra patches I have. I think I spend more time choosing an ensemble than writing music.


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