# The greatest living composers of film music: Things that make me question my purpose.



## José Herring (Jul 15, 2022)

I get hung up sometimes. The film music I tend to like isn't popular film music. Truth be told. For as popular and referenced as SW scores are, I've never been able to listen to a track all the way through since I was about 11 years old. Not that the music isn't good or that JW isn't the GOAT (greatest of all time). I even love the movies, have seen them multiple times. Love the score in the movies but as music, I get bored. Other of his scores like Black Sunday, Eiger Sanction and War of the Worlds and Nixon, I've repeatedly listened to. But these aren't the scores that made John Williams, JOHN WILLIAMS!!!

Also, the HZ scores that everybody likes and raves about and tries to copy, I can barely listen to. But, his more obscure scores like Toys, Black Rain and Spirit I study and listen to repeatedly. But these aren't necessarily the scores that are the most popular. I love Black Rain because I can hear Zimmer thinking. He's a passionate genius that feels his way through and figures out his own path. It's developing something unique, I can understand it. It's a cool blend of electronics, sample sound design, drums, and horn sections and strings. I love it really. But, that score was nowhere near as successful as some of his others that I find less interesting.

Makes me wonder if I should just head in the more obscure direction and be resigned to the fact that I will probably never get that big commercial hit, or just find another line of work. Always be struggling trying to find work because I don't have that big titled calling card or upper level connections or score projects that are totally commercially successful. 

Consuming my thoughts these days.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 15, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I get hung up sometimes. The film music I tend to like isn't popular film music. Truth be told. For as popular and referenced as SW scores are, I've never been able to listen to a track all the way through since I was about 11 years old. Not that the music isn't good or that JW isn't the GOAT (greatest of all time). I even love the movies, have seen them multiple times. Love the score in the movies but as music, I get bored. Other of his scores like Black Sunday, Eiger Sanction and War of the Worlds and Nixon, I've repeatedly listened to. But these aren't the scores that made John Williams, JOHN WILLIAMS!!!
> 
> Also, the HZ scores that everybody likes and raves about and tries to copy, I can barely listen to. But, his more obscure scores like Toys, Black Rain and Spirit I study and listen to repeatedly. But these aren't necessarily the scores that are the most popular. I love Black Rain because I can hear Zimmer thinking. He's a passionate genius that feels his way through and figures out his own path. It's developing something unique, I can understand it. It's a cool blend of electronics, sample sound design, drums, and horn sections and strings. I love it really. But, that score was nowhere near as successful as some of his others that I find less interesting.
> 
> ...


There's millions of guys trying to write like (some arbitrary era of) Hans Zimmer, and Hans Zimmer isn't even one of them. There's only one guy trying to write like you. 🤘🏻


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## Markrs (Jul 15, 2022)

I would just do the things you want to do José, as you have to be true to yourself.


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## EanS (Jul 15, 2022)

When I listened to your page, my impression of your compositions for instance, Money, was exactly what I found the interesting aspect of your work, really really dig it. Fantasia is the only Disney music I dig. 

By reading your conundrum I really would like to confirm that indeed you have to gravitate towards that side and explore it. I can bet new generations of makers will also be far from a staple sound and look towards something that says immediately it's 

You

who will affect others' feelings and move them with your music. 

(every word here from Wooten is gold regarding today and music)


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## EanS (Jul 15, 2022)

By the way, regarding scoring for instance JW, and under a really humble point from me, because I know my limitations, you should maybe do this one, but a real one, I don't understand half what I'm doing 😂 (I'm proud of the solo though)


View attachment Catch Me_session.mp3


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## quickbrownf0x (Jul 15, 2022)

Maybe the answer lies in finding the right balance between writing what's necessary to keep the lights on and writing the kind of stuff that makes you happy. Obviously, if you can do both at the same time, that would be awesome, but clearly, that's not always the case.

But even when you find yourself working on something that's more commercial, you're personally not that into, you can still look for parts, bits of storytelling you can relate to, and then latch onto that. Or you can focus on the _process itself_ instead of just the music - maybe you're part of a team, or maybe you really want to say, help your (already stressed-out) director friend, bring out his/her vision. Maybe it's not always about the music or even being original, frankly. Come to think of it, from what I've learned, most of the time isn't spent on actual composing, but on all the other, human-related stuff.

I'm a designer. I help companies innovate quickly - that's really my day job. You'd think I'd spend most of my time designing clever solutions right? Nope! 95%, no- 98% of my time is spent on talking to people and figuring out what best to do, _together_. Also - I do a lot of pointing and nodding. Occasionally I let out the odd 'Mèh, let's have another look' to look smart and like I know what I'm doing.

I might be going off on a tangent here, but I'm trying to say that it may be a good idea to not just find joy in simply writing the best, most original music you can, but also look for happiness in working with others, helping them achieve _their _goals. That's how I've done things both in and outside of music.

And then you can always do your own thing outside of that to scratch your personal creative itch, right? And who knows; maybe this way of thinking will pay off in the future, leading to more projects that _are _in your wheelhouse.


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## Technostica (Jul 15, 2022)

Success is enjoying each moment for what it is and not rejecting them by comparing them to past moments or idealised imagined future moments. 
So success for me is inner contentment and not external validation. 
We have no control over external validation, but we can track our internal contentment. 
I do believe that inner contentment can liberate us to be freer and that can help us to be more creative and authentic. 
So that may lead us to receive more external validation due to the quality of our work improving.


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## José Herring (Jul 15, 2022)

EanS said:


> When I listened to your page, my impression of your compositions for instance, Money, was exactly what I found the interesting aspect of your work, really really dig it. Fantasia is the only Disney music I dig.
> 
> By reading your conundrum I really would like to confirm that indeed you have to gravitate towards that side and explore it. I can bet new generations of makers will also be far from a staple sound and look towards something that says immediately it's
> 
> ...



Thank you for listening. 

It's funny "Money" is the piece that I feel most insecure about. Even after I finished it, I didn't even think I should post it on my website. There' no progression, there's nothing in that piece that I "learned". I just felt my way through that entire cue and don't even have the chops to mix it properly. But, it stayed in purely because I liked it. Because I was on to something. I honestly had forgotten it. Thank you for reminding me.

Wooten is cool. I really dig his bass playing a lot. Some would call him a great bass player. In truth he's a great musician who happens to play the bass. 

Check out his great explanation of music theory basics.


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## The Retroblueman (Jul 15, 2022)

Loved your post because I love Black Rain - I have listened to that soundtrack more than maybe any human being on earth! I think Black Rain is like Hans' Beethoven Pathetique Sonata- you can draw a line from the ideas in it to quite a lot of the zeitgeist defining things on his CV that follow- sometimes very directly (compare then end of "Charlie loses his head" with the end of Molossus) The other thing I would ask is that, why would it be to your detriment to write your Black Rain now?? It's not going to stop you writing your "As Good as it Gets", "The Holiday", or "A Good Year" in a few year's time.


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## José Herring (Jul 15, 2022)

The Retroblueman said:


> Loved your post because I love Black Rain - I have listened to that soundtrack more than maybe any human being on earth! I think Black Rain is like Hans' Beethoven Pathetique Sonata- you can draw a line from the ideas in it to quite a lot of the zeitgeist defining things on his CV that follow- sometimes very directly (compare then end of "Charlie loses his head" with the end of Molossus) The other thing I would ask is that, why would it be to your detriment to write your Black Rain now?? It's not going to stop you writing your "As Good as it Gets", "The Holiday", or "A Good Year" in a few year's time.


Yes, that's what I love about Black Rain, you can hear him thinking. He isn't yet HANS Friggin' ZIMMER but he's working it out. He's taking the tools that he has an working them to the limits.  Using the same sample and getting 10 different sounds for it. Instead of standard cymbal rolls he's pitch shifting it down and then add fx, ect.... It's a remarkable study and shows that he's willing to break every rule, do what ever it takes to get what he hears in his head out into the world. I probably read to much into it. But, I get inspired. Just the same way I get inspired by Charlie Clouser's work. It's like "to hell" with the way things are suppose to be, this is how I hear it.
Scores like "As Good as it gets" is literally my comfort zone. I don't have anything like that on my website now but when I started doing indie films, I was writting stuff like that without even really knowing who HZ was in the early 90's. Other than in '92 people kept on throwing me temp scores with his score to Rain Man and I interned at a studio that was constantly ripping off Rain Man for their commercial jingles. But, me personally I was still in the "who the hell is Zimmer" phase of my life. . Then I rented Black rain and became somewhat obsessed with that along with his score to Point of No Return.

Maybe he needed to go through that phase of just being a huge commercial success to get the clout to take chances like Batman Begins. Maybe he never planned it out that way and just went with his gut. Now he can't be copied which is a joy really. Nobody can copy scores like Dune and slap it in every trailer. Thank God. But, I am going to make a PCV pipe duduk. That sounded way cool.


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## José Herring (Jul 15, 2022)

quickbrownf0x said:


> Maybe the answer lies in finding the right balance between writing what's necessary to keep the lights on and writing the kind of stuff that makes you happy. Obviously, if you can do both at the same time, that would be awesome, but clearly, that's not always the case.
> 
> But even when you find yourself working on something that's more commercial, you're personally not that into, you can still look for parts, bits of storytelling you can relate to, and then latch onto that. Or you can focus on the _process itself_ instead of just the music - maybe you're part of a team, or maybe you really want to say, help your (already stressed-out) director friend, bring out his/her vision. Maybe it's not always about the music or even being original, frankly. Come to think of it, from what I've learned, most of the time isn't spent on actual composing, but on all the other, human-related stuff.
> 
> ...


This is really sticking with me. I think determining the right purpose is important. 
For example I just finished a trailer for a friend's film. He wanted something very specific but it was something that I find kind of cool. Probably way more traditional than I like to write but I had fun doing it. I can do it and it's getting the point that tradition orchestral arranging is really easy for me. It came out great and he loved it. He wants to hire me for the entire film once completed. So it was a great experience and we had fun reconnecting and talking about some of our old film adventures. I wasn't even thinking about myself the whole time. 
Maybe at times when I'm not doing any composing project is when I start to get all introspective and start worry about the grand purpose of it rather than just having fun doing it.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Jul 15, 2022)

You mention worrying about the 'grand purpose' of it and whether or not you can take value from writing music which you don't care for, just to make the big bucks.

Making the 'big bucks' is undoubtedly difficult, but let's look more at your worries a bit. Here is a rational concept for you: you do not _need_ to make a lot of money writing music to live well and be happy. You do not _need _to make a lot of money, period. If you place needs, musts, or shoulds on yourself and/or the world around you, you're setting yourself up for getting to feel the more 'negative' self-defeating emotions and worries, especially when things don't go your way. Instead, I'd suggest it'd be better to approach it more like: "I might like/prefer to make a lot of money writing music, but I don't _need _it to be happy/live a fulfilling life, and I acknowledge the possibility that it may not happen. In the mean time, I'm going to do the things that will make me happy now, and put myself on track to some possible future successes, _not knowing_ what the future will bring."

Essentially what I'm trying to describe is a change to your approach and perspective, which may help with the "big worries".


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## HarmonKard (Jul 15, 2022)

So, you basically laid out your issue rather cohesively, and it sounds like you just need/want confirmation from your peers as to whether or not your feelings are justified.

Your second sentence sums it all up:

_The film music I tend to like isn't popular film music._

Well, that right there is a problem. A big one. Doesn't mean you are not talented; doesn't mean you don't know how to score a film. But it does mean that you have a problem. And that problem is that you need to find directors and filmmakers who want obscure scores in their films. Are they out there? Of course! Are they in abundance? Probably not. Are they going to help with your path to success? Almost definitely not.

Not everyone wants JW and HZ; but everyone wants a good score that will work with their film... and unless the film is obscure, the filmmkaker isn't going to want an obscure score. What they do want, however, is one that follows the trend of film scores. Sure, every once in a while you will run into a filmmaker who wants to buck the trend. Ok, cool. But how often does that happen? In an industry where almost everyone wants to play it safe almost every time, not very often at all.

Does a restaurant owner, who wants to specialize in meat dishes hire a vegan as the head chef?

Does a filmmaker making a superhero film hire Phillip Glass, or Wendy Carlos? Does a filmmaker making the next "E.T." hire a composer who doesn't like popular film music?

If you like and write obscure scores, and you have your own voice, there will always be room for you. But how much success will you have as a film composer? Be realistic, and understand that in all likelihood, it won't be much.

Good luck to you.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 15, 2022)

You do you, dude. IMO as much as I absolutely love Williams, we need *both* more people who can write like him, as well as people who honestly don't care about him.

And yes, Black Rain is one of HZ's best, absolutely masterful. It's one of the few scores where I can remember exactly where I was the first time I heard it.


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## quickbrownf0x (Jul 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> This is really sticking with me. I think determining the right purpose is important.
> For example I just finished a trailer for a friend's film. He wanted something very specific but it was something that I find kind of cool. Probably way more traditional than I like to write but I had fun doing it. I can do it and it's getting the point that tradition orchestral arranging is really easy for me. It came out great and he loved it. He wants to hire me for the entire film once completed. So it was a great experience and we had fun reconnecting and talking about some of our old film adventures. I wasn't even thinking about myself the whole time.
> Maybe at times when I'm not doing any composing project is when I start to get all introspective and start worry about the grand purpose of it rather than just having fun doing it.


Hey, glad it made some sense. 

Look at how often you mention positive things in your reply;

1;


> ...something that I find kind of cool


2;


> ...but I had fun doing it


3;


> ...It came out great and he loved it


4; 


> ...He wants to hire me for the entire film once completed.


5;


> ...we had fun reconnecting and talking about some of our old film adventures.


6.


> ...I wasn't even thinking about myself the whole time.



Doesn't sound like a bad gig to me. 🤷‍♂️😉


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## The Retroblueman (Jul 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Yes, that's what I love about Black Rain, you can hear him thinking. He isn't yet HANS Friggin' ZIMMER but he's working it out. He's taking the tools that he has an working them to the limits. Using the same sample and getting 10 different sounds for it. Instead of standard cymbal rolls he's pitch shifting it down and then add fx, ect.... It's a remarkable study and shows that he's willing to break every rule, do what ever it takes to get what he hears in his head out into the world. I probably read to much into it. But, I get inspired. Just the same way I get inspired by Charlie Clouser's work. It's like "to hell" with the way things are suppose to be, this is how I hear it.
> Scores like "As Good as it gets" is literally my comfort zone. I don't have anything like that on my website now but when I started doing indie films, I was writting stuff like that without even really knowing who HZ was in the early 90's. Other than in '92 people kept on throwing me temp scores with his score to Rain Man and I interned at a studio that was constantly ripping off Rain Man for their commercial jingles. But, me personally I was still in the "who the hell is Zimmer" phase of my life. . Then I rented Black rain and became somewhat obsessed with that along with his score to Point of No Return.
> 
> Maybe he needed to go through that phase of just being a huge commercial success to get the clout to take chances like Batman Begins. Maybe he never planned it out that way and just went with his gut. Now he can't be copied which is a joy really. Nobody can copy scores like Dune and slap it in every trailer. Thank God. But, I am going to make a PCV pipe duduk. That sounded way cool.



Ha - loved the Duduk. 

I've always thought the funny thing about Hans is that he is probably one of the most copied composers ever, but there is something about him that seems to be unique and uncopyable - I can always spot when it's the real deal and I have never quite been able to put my finger on why that is. I remember going to see Broken Arrow in the 90s without knowing who did the score and after about 10 seconds I knew that it was him and not an imitator. Conversely, something like Con Air is very Hans-y, but not quite Hans.

Well reminded about Point of No Return - I know what I'll be spending the afternoon listening to!😁


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## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2022)

It’s interesting. In other creative careers “making it big” is hardly the measurement for success. I’m in design myself, and very rarely if ever, do I hear anyone talking about making it big. The measurement for success is rather to just… be in the business. Working with interesting companies and projects. Staying afloat if you’re running your own agency, or perhaps going from designer to director if you’re at a bigger firm. No one is ever talking about becoming the next Jony Ive or jumping ship if it doesn’t happen. Most people seem perfectly happy with this being a job, where you design for the client, and almost everyone do a lot of other creative things on the side. Paint. Build stuff. A surprisingly big portion actually do music on their spare time.

I find it interesting that the music industry seem much more focused on the concept of “making it big”, and that anything else, that is still a perfectly productive and adequate career, would somehow be a failure just because it doesn’t reach the top charts. Would be curious to hear peoples thoughts on why this could be so different seeing as they’re both creative client work fields.


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## mybadmemory (Jul 16, 2022)

I can understand the obsession with success as an artist of course. But as a composer working for clients you’re not really an artist, and you’re not really trying to get a big hit? You’re a service provider, working for other people, paying you to deliver something that fits their requirements. It’s basically the same as being a designer, a developer, a carpenter, an electrician, or basically anything where a service is provided to the specification of someone else. Success is just being able to sustain a good life from it really?

I guess it might also be a western thing, this notion of making it big to succeed. I’m seeing a lot of the really iconic Japanese games composers having a totally different mindset. Even the ones that are now world famous for their work and get to tour the world with symphony orchestras playing their music, most of them are still in the mindset of “It’s just a job. I’ve worked for the same company my entire life. It’s fun that people enjoy what I do but I basically just do what I’m told. I’m not rich. I get a regular salary.”


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## Henu (Jul 16, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> I find it interesting that the music industry seem much more focused on the concept of “making it big”,


I think one of the reasons for that is that the music industry _is_ one of the creative careers where it's actually possible. Unfortunately, the same industry is probably containing the biggest amount of mediocre and uninteresting creators who think their mediocrity will some day be seen as musical geniousness if they just "work hard".

Having long roots in the music industry myself and having been closely working with record labels for the last 20+ years, I've seen the abovementioned scenario way too many times and it's one of the universal laws that keeps on happening from decade to other and from a genre to another. I've always found it a bit funny, because while those rainbow-chasers narrow their efforts into a one single thing ("making it big"), I've seen countless of bands and artists steadily growing their fanbase with quality releases pushing their limits...and in the long run becoming much bigger names instead.


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## José Herring (Jul 16, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> I find it interesting that the music industry seem much more focused on the concept of “making it big”, and that anything else, that is still a perfectly productive and adequate career, would somehow be a failure just because it doesn’t reach the top charts. Would be curious to hear peoples thoughts on why this could be so different seeing as they’re both creative client work fields.


It's kind of simple. It's the only small guarantee of any kind of financial stability. 
I think it hit home one day where I heard this amazing composer who had done a fairly successful series on Cable TV a while back. I called him to congratulate him on his success. He thanked me and then dropped that after that show he was selling keyboards at a trade show which is where I happen to catch him. I wish I could remember his name or the show, it was long ago but that kind of stuck with me. Perfectly talented composer, really good score producer, selling keyboards after completing a fairly successful TV show. 
So the hyper focus on "making it" is almost out of necessity because even some successes that you think would at least "help a brotha out" are no guarantee that you'll be able to support oneself. For the most part we are alone. Not too many firms doing film and TV music. So you have to forge your own path. That path is brutal sometimes requiring some compromises. 
I'm not making any excuses I'm just heading back into that world after taking about 5 years off and it's all coming back to me now why I needed to take 5 years off in the first place. Mostly that I had been doing other people's music for so long that I nearly forgot what I sounded like.

During that time off I did 1 score. I did the score thinking that people were going to hate it. It was for a little one scene short film and that film is now winning festivals and I just picked up a "best score" at one of the festivals. Nothing to brag about really, but it got me thinking. Of all the work I did in the past 25 years the one little small score where I was just totally not copying anybody gets recognized at least on an artistic level. So it got me thinking, maybe I should just do that from now on and put "making it" aside for a while.

John Williams once stated in a master class that he did with Spielberg to aspiring film makers that people focus on the "big successes" when they should be focused on the small successes. That not everybody was going to be a Spielberg. Even Spielberg was kind of taken aback by this comment and even tried to backpedal what the Maestro was saying a bit. Kind of a harsh reality blow to young dreamers. Even I thought it was kind of a mean thing to say, but having studied many John Williams interviews I know that there's not a mean bone in that guy's body. So I reflected on it and he's right. We can all aspire to be the greatest but few will make it to that level.

Maybe that's part of my reality check. I may never make it to be the next John Williams or the Next Hans Zimmer but I can easily be the next José Herring and maybe I just need to be happy where that guy ends up or is heading and not dream about things that may never happen but dream about what I could make happen.

I thank everybody for their input though for sure. Part of what I'm doing now is starting a new plan and working out what direction I'd like to head in. Your input is helpful.


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## ed buller (Jul 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Eiger Sanction and War of the Worlds and Nixon, I've repeatedly listened to. But these aren't the scores that made John Williams, JOHN WILLIAMS!!!


Eiger Sanction is one of his best !!....It's Hans's fav too if I remember correctly 

best

e


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## Markrs (Jul 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I may never make it to be the next John Williams or the Next Hans Zimmer but I can easily be the next José Herring


Reminded me of this quote:

“Why become a second-rate Ravel when you're already a first-rate Gershwin?”
― Maurice Ravel



José Herring said:


> John Williams once stated in a master class that he did with Spielberg to aspiring film makers that people focus on the "big successes" when they should be focused on the small successes.



I also wonder if John Williams or Hans Zimmer's style wasn't popular, would they have changed it to try to become successful or would they have continued to forge their own direction and celebrate those small successes?

I bet there are talented composers out there that have done just this. Hugely talented but are just forging their own path even if the style is not in vogue.


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## TomislavEP (Jul 16, 2022)

To me, true success is finding success in small things. I'm in music since an early age and have been making ends meet from various music-related activities for more than a decade. I'm often struggling financially but I'm well aware of my qualities and potential and everything that I've managed to achieve thus far almost completely alone. I never had illusions or pretense of achieving some grand success and being rich and famous, nor would I want to bear such a burden anyway. From my experience, this is more closely related to things like connections, references, and a business-like mindset rather than to talent, creativity, and passion. As much as anyone, I also hope for some formal recognition and lucrative opportunities, but my goal was always merely living creatively in freedom and peace. That being said, if I could choose to be like somebody else (famous) for one day, I would never choose Zimmer or Williams; I'd choose Vangelis.


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## HarmonKard (Jul 16, 2022)

Yeah, different people have different definitions of "success", and who am I to tell anyone else.... _dude, you can consider yourself a success when x happens._

JW and HZ are two exs of success, but you don't need to be at that level to be successful. Of course some people will think that unless they get to that point, they are a failure, but I would argue that that's not necessarily true.

If you can do what you love, and love what you do, and make a good living doing it, and get to the point where you can say, _this is it, I am going to do nothing else as long as I live, and this is going to fund my retirement,_ you probably have the right to consider yourself a success.


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## dcoscina (Jul 16, 2022)

If you think that is bad, try studying Bartok and Stravinsky.... some days I'm in so much awe I think I have no business writing music. but other days, their music serves to inspire me because of the great expanse that still exists in creating music.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 16, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> If you think that is bad, try studying Bartok and Stravinsky.... some days I'm in so much awe I think I have no business writing music. but other days, their music serves to inspire me because of the great expanse that still exists in creating music.


It’s funny. Sometimes I’d look at one of their scores and go “hmm, wow, it’s perfectly simple. Here it all is, on the page, right here in front of me.” I’d feel as if I’m making it so much more difficult than it is. 

And then sometimes I’d take one look and go “fuck me, I will never even be a quarter this good.” I’d kind of get this thousand yard stare and for a brief moment get a proper sense of just how elegant so much of it is, and feel this awe-inspiring sense of standing on the shoulders of absolute giants. 

I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle, but it’s a funny phenomenon. Probably says more about my mood on those days than anything else, tbh.


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## Roger Newton (Jul 16, 2022)

I don't know about the greatest living film writer but Thomas Newman is always pretty reliable. Put it another way, it's a lot easier today to pick out one or two writers compared to let's say, 50 or 60 plus years ago.


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## dcoscina (Jul 16, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> It’s funny. Sometimes I’d look at one of their scores and go “hmm, wow, it’s perfectly simple. Here it all is, on the page, right here in front of me.” I’d feel as if I’m making it so much more difficult than it is.
> 
> And then sometimes I’d take one look and go “fuck me, I will never even be a quarter this good.” I’d kind of get this thousand yard stare and for a brief moment get a proper sense of just how elegant so much of it is, and feel this awe-inspiring sense of standing on the shoulders of absolute giants.
> 
> I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle, but it’s a funny phenomenon. Probably says more about my mood on those days than anything else, tbh.


Ha I wish I had your music IQ! Bartok will never look simple to me. His orchestration for Miraculous Mandarin is so far from The Eroica (conventional) that it’s scary. His harmonic complexity for Music for Strings, Perc and Celesta or even Concerto for Orchestra stuns me. I always hear something new when I listen to his music and this is after hundreds of listenings.


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## Vik (Jul 23, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I am going to make a PCV pipe duduk. That sounded way cool.



Sure, but this sounds otherworldly. 


Regarding "The greatest living composers of film music: Things that make me question my purpose": the greatest living composers (and most of those who aren't around anymore) probably also questioned their purpose at some point too. They wouldn't have become brilliant if they had let this stop them from continuing to evolve as composers.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 23, 2022)

But when you write music for a client, don’t you feel happy and fulfilled or whatever you call it when the client is happy with what you’ve made? I‘m pretty sure I would if I was doing this for a living. A happy customer = I did a good job. Then for me it wouldn’t matter if the music I’d created wasn’t my own cup of tea.


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## mybadmemory (Jul 24, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> But when you write music for a client, don’t you feel happy and fulfilled or whatever you call it when the client is happy with what you’ve made? I‘m pretty sure I would if I was doing this for a living. A happy customer = I did a good job. Then for me it wouldn’t matter if the music I’d created wasn’t my own cup of tea.


Comparing to my career in design, I only feel truly great when I get to do what I myself feel is good design, regardless of what the client wants. Making the client happy is of course a necessity to put food on the table, but it does not equal feeling great about the job if you don’t like or agree to the outcome yourself. In short: There are the jobs you’re proud of, and put in your portfolio, and there are the jobs you only do for the money but don’t ever want to show because they don’t represent what you want to be about.


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## José Herring (Jul 29, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> Comparing to my career in design, I only feel truly great when I get to do what I myself feel is good design, regardless of what the client wants. Making the client happy is of course a necessity to put food on the table, but it does not equal feeling great about the job if you don’t like or agree to the outcome yourself. In short: There are the jobs you’re proud of, and put in your portfolio, and there are the jobs you only do for the money but don’t ever want to show because they don’t represent what you want to be about.


This is true. The problem is now with the internet everything we do as composer in film gets proliferated on the internet. Here's a great example. 

When I first got here in '97 I did this little film for a company called PM Entertainment. The name of the company says it all "PM". Not kids films, but I'm no prude so whatever. It wasn't hardcore. The star Traci Lords was after all trying to go legit as she could. Kind of a racy erotic thriller. I did it for the gig. I didn't believe in the film. I just needed a job. Next thing you know that "gig" is playing on HBO for like years. At 10pm when the evening stuff is safe to play because the kids are in bed. 

Now 25 years later I just learned that I was part of a subgenre of late 90's late night erotic thriller films. Serously???! I literally just learned this last month because somebody is doing a documentary on that, of course being the gig monger that I can be, I promplty asked him if I could do the music to his documentary but it turns out there's another composer who actually specialized in this genre. He's good too!!! 
Frightening. I mean I shouldn't complain because it got me another gig that I actually liked but I was mortified when the director had me in his edit room streaming movies I scored. And, I'm like having to explain away like a fool....He didn't really care he just liked that I had done "stuff". But still.

So shit just kind of has a way of lingering around you if you're not careful. Everybody on planet Earth has access to just about everything ever made and you never know. So I'm kind of more careful these days. In my 50's I want my work to bring good into the world. I gotta do stuff for the right reasons.


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## NuNativs (Jul 29, 2022)

Comparing yourself to others is a recipe for failure:
"There is one thing that you’re better at than other people: being you. This is the only game you can really win."


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## b_elliott (Jul 30, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> Ha I wish I had your music IQ! Bartok will never look simple to me. His orchestration for Miraculous Mandarin is so far from The Eroica (conventional) that it’s scary. His harmonic complexity for Music for Strings, Perc and Celesta or even Concerto for Orchestra stuns me. I always hear something new when I listen to his music and this is after hundreds of listenings.


BB clearly had a giant music mind.
Not that it sheds much light, just yesterday I ran across an interview with one of his former piano students: Bartok held 3 composers he intended to emulate:
Bach (ctrpoint),
Beethoven (form) and
Debussy (harmony).

That raised a brow considering the works he output; and, it's something that will take years to unpack.

One 2-cent takeaway so far from studying Bartok: his scores show a profuse useage of tempo changes, rubatos, ritardandos, accelerandos, using polyrhythms to accelerate one instrument while the orch waltzes along, on and on == it lets the music breathe.

A different perspective on how the music cake gets sliced....


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 30, 2022)

S


José Herring said:


> I get hung up sometimes. The film music I tend to like isn't popular film music. Truth be told. For as popular and referenced as SW scores are, I've never been able to listen to a track all the way through since I was about 11 years old. Not that the music isn't good or that JW isn't the GOAT (greatest of all time). I even love the movies, have seen them multiple times. Love the score in the movies but as music, I get bored. Other of his scores like Black Sunday, Eiger Sanction and War of the Worlds and Nixon, I've repeatedly listened to. But these aren't the scores that made John Williams, JOHN WILLIAMS!!!
> 
> Also, the HZ scores that everybody likes and raves about and tries to copy, I can barely listen to. But, his more obscure scores like Toys, Black Rain and Spirit I study and listen to repeatedly. But these aren't necessarily the scores that are the most popular. I love Black Rain because I can hear Zimmer thinking. He's a passionate genius that feels his way through and figures out his own path. It's developing something unique, I can understand it. It's a cool blend of electronics, sample sound design, drums, and horn sections and strings. I love it really. But, that score was nowhere near as successful as some of his others that I find less interesting.
> 
> ...



I understand where you are coming from but you always have to write what the film needs and the director wants - whether that is commercial or obscure may have little to do with what you want your career to look like as an arc. This is film music at the end of the day. 

Some films are great opportunities to write music even if it's commercial. How often do you get to write something with all the bells and whistles?

We have to remember that some of this is luck. It is a chain of events that happen one at a time. You get a few films that may attract the attention of interesting filmmakers. 

Sometimes you are just the right person at the right time........

I don't think film composers get the luxury of really deciding the overall arc but it is of course nudged by your musical style that will hopefully create interesting opportunities. 

With film music you often just try to do the best you can in a situation and see where it goes. I think may be even in life  

I know a couple of composers who are really great but not directly working in film. 
One who is a veteran and would have been a Hollywood A-lister bar none for sure but chose to stay away from the all the negative that comes with film music. 

There are some things outside of film music as well. 

Finally, I feel like Hollywood A-list composers live in a 'Special Economic Zone' of sorts. Most of us have a slightly different experience writing for films even though mechanistically it is very similar. It is a very rare situation.


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## KEM (Jul 30, 2022)

Well the greatest living composer is an easy answer: Ludwig Göransson. And he’s proving to everyone that you can do something different with film music and still be wildly successful, so I’m very happy to see him be as big as he is, let’s me know that I’m on the right track. It’s easy to get discouraged, I feel that way all the time, much more than I feel confident in fact, but I try to always keep in mind what Kanye said, “for me giving ups way harder than trying”


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

José, I just noticed this:









This award winning short had one hell of a cool composer according to IMDB.

Congratulations my friend. Interesting premise too, a palindrome movie. I gather Kenneth is going to love it.

❤️


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