# How to write effective runs? (Solved)



## Nils Neumann (Jan 29, 2018)

Do you have any tipps, tricks, general knowledge about runs you can share with me?
Any scores to study that have an emphasis on runs?


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## Saxer (Jan 29, 2018)




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## Lassi Tani (Jan 29, 2018)

Every John Williams score. Buy e.g. Force Awakens score, you'll find a lot of runs.

Here also:


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 29, 2018)

Well, hard to put anything after Wagner and Williams, but I've always loved the runs on Spidey's theme (I know, me mentioning Elfman AGAIN) :


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 29, 2018)

Another interesting video is this one for OT's Orchestral String Runs. It gave me a better understanding on how a run "works", what are the common figures and patterns, and how to build or decompose them.


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## NoamL (Jan 29, 2018)

Nils Neumann said:


> Do you have any tipps, tricks, general knowledge about runs you can share with me?
> Any scores to study that have an emphasis on runs?



The 2 most important aspects of a run are the final note, and the tonality of the run. The starting note is less important in the audience's mind and the number of notes is still less important. That's why JW often writes runs of 7-tuplets or other "strange" numbers. Ideally you want to write enough notes that the audience just hears a blur, but not so many that it becomes ridiculously difficult to play.

For figuring out the tonality of runs, the best thing is to have a strong grounding in music theory. Consider this passage from Harry Potter (3:01-3:08)



Here is a transcription: (background harmony is Gsus)







Notice the alternation between Bb and B♮, depending on what other notes are included in the triplet. This is following the rules of melodic minor.

Diatonic runs often sound... a little lame. It's often good to spice them up with neighbor tones or altered notes. JW applies this to both his string/ww runs and his harp glissandos. For example instead of a simple melodic minor run, he'll instead use harmonic minor, or melodic minor #4, or some other "variant."


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2018)

I used to orchestrate for Warner Brothers cartoons, which is where I learned to write runs that were playable enough to be recorded after only a quick rehearsal. Mind you, we had fantastically talented players, but at fast tempos (160-180 typical), 16th note runs (semi-quavers) are moving fast, so you have to be mindful that adding in lots of unexpected skips or accidentals that don't fit a regular scale is a risk.

So, to make that work, we usually would stick to major, minor, diminished, whole tone, or other "typical" scales that the players knew cold. That way they could get the idea -- "oh, F# minor, got it" and just look at where the run starts and stops.

If you have extremely good players, you could study the string runs in "Hedwig's Theme," in the John Williams Signature Score for Harry Potter. Note that all the violins [both V1 and V2] are usually playing in unison, so that is someone gets lost or drops out, the line is still covered effectively.

In general, John Williams is about the best orchestrator alive I can think of, so I would recommend him for studying runs. (I realise that he doesn't have the specific title of orchestrator, but I've seen some old copies of his manuscripts, and it's all on the page.)


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## NathanTiemeyer (Jan 29, 2018)

Following this thread. This is an area I'd really like to improve with in my writing.  I love using runs for transitions and textures. Some programming examples with Midi note data would be wonderful, I would love to see how everyone else does it!


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## Jonas Hallstrom (Jan 30, 2018)

Tchaikovsky came to mind. He made runs and scales a vital part of his writing.
The use of the melodic minor scale at 17 seconds is beautiful IMO.


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## wst3 (Jan 30, 2018)

Thanks for that, I learned some new tricks, even though I don't (yet) own Orchestral String Runs.

Another video, from Alex at Cinematic Strings, was really helpful for me - partly, I suppose, because I do own Cinematic Strings 2.

The example MIDI files may not work with every library, but they sure do work in CS2.


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## Nils Neumann (Jan 31, 2018)

Sorry guys for replying so late, but thank you, great suggestions, I really appreciate it!


Saxer said:


>



I know this piece but I never focused on the Orchestration, was this piece groundbreaking? It definitely feels like it is.



NoamL said:


> The 2 most important aspects of a run are the final note, and the tonality of the run. The starting note is less important in the audience's mind and the number of notes is still less important. That's why JW often writes runs of 7-tuplets or other "strange" numbers. Ideally you want to write enough notes that the audience just hears a blur, but not so many that it becomes ridiculously difficult to play.
> 
> For figuring out the tonality of runs, the best thing is to have a strong grounding in music theory. Consider this passage from Harry Potter (3:01-3:08)
> 
> ...



Thank you for this detailed answer! 



JohnG said:


> I used to orchestrate for Warner Brothers cartoons, which is where I learned to write runs that were playable enough to be recorded after only a quick rehearsal. Mind you, we had fantastically talented players, but at fast tempos (160-180 typical), 16th note runs (semi-quavers) are moving fast, so you have to be mindful that adding in lots of unexpected skips or accidentals that don't fit a regular scale is a risk.


One thing I like about my computer, it can play my weird stuff effortless
But yeah, I should keep that in mind when I have the opportunity to record an orchestra.


Still a few questions left:
When I use pre-recorded runs, for examples BBW. They recorded for each scale (major/minor) runs.
Let say I'm in C-major and I start a run on a G-major chord and end on C-major (V-I).
Should I choose the the C-major runs? Starting on C ending on C? Or what about F-major to C-major? They only provide you with runs from C to C in different variations. I guess these prerecorded runs are a little bit inflexible.

Where should I place runs? I mean they seem to emphasise the last note so V-I is obvious but thats not it? Any other areas of application?

What about runs that only use chord tones?


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## Nils Neumann (Jan 31, 2018)

whitewasteland said:


> Another interesting video is this one for OT's Orchestral String Runs. It gave me a better understanding on how a run "works", what are the common figures and patterns, and how to build or decompose them.



This is really helpful!
Anyone experience with Orchestral String Runs? It seems to be the most comprehensive String Run Library on the market?


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## Lassi Tani (Jan 31, 2018)

Nils Neumann said:


> When I use pre-recorded runs, for examples BBW. They recorded for each scale (major/minor) runs.
> Let say I'm in C-major and I start a run on a G-major chord and end on C-major (V-I).
> Should I choose the the C-major runs? Starting on C ending on C? Or what about F-major to C-major? They only provide you with runs from C to C in different variations. I guess these prerecorded runs are a little bit inflexible.
> 
> ...



Also prerecorded runs have always a fixed amount of notes. If you use C major run while on G major chord to end up to C, you would have F flat, which in G major scale would be sharp. Though, e.g. John Williams uses chromatic notes here and there to color the runs. But as Noam said, the notes in the middle of the run are not that important as the ending note. So you could use prerecorded runs, if they fit, because they sound great. I'm usually not using prerecorded runs, because I like spicing up the runs a bit with chromatic scales.

I can think of at least these two uses for runs:
- Just before a strong or a new part of a piece or part of a theme, together with other instruments in a crescendo


Note it doesn't always have to be string run. In the Jedi Steps example, there are just 2 Clarinets, a Harp doing a upward run.
- Making a part animated, e.g. here woodwind runs. Even though they sound complicated, they are following the rhythm of the piece


Usually runs which use chord tones or other intervals are called arpeggiatos, and they are very useful too, even more common than runs I think. Many times a rhythmic pattern is supported with arpeggiatos. E.g. strings and woodwinds in Jedi Steps (Main Title theme):




Nils Neumann said:


> Anyone experience with Orchestral String Runs? It seems to be the most comprehensive String Run Library on the market?



It's very easy to build up runs with Orchestral String Runs and it sounds great! You should check OT's videos on Youtube.


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## aaronventure (Jan 31, 2018)

Define "effective". Is it so that they sound complex, but actually aren't? So that the players can nail it on the first try during the session and save you some time? If so, you might wanna ask a string player what exactly are they practicing a lot to get a better insight. Doug actually has a great video on this:


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 1, 2018)

sekkosiki said:


> Also prerecorded runs have always a fixed amount of notes. If you use C major run while on G major chord to end up to C, you would have F flat, which in G major scale would be sharp.



I can't follow you here. In my example I was speaking of a Dominant to Tonic resolution. The F flat should be no problem when it play's in a C-major?

I just discovered that BWW includes the same run builder as Orchestral String Runs, I love it so far, but definitely needs some time to master.



aaronventure said:


> Is it so that they sound complex, but actually aren't? So that the players can nail it on the first try during the session and save you some time?



I'm aware of certain limitations on instruments, plus having a background in string instruments helps me out a lot. I always have my copy of Adlers "Study of Orchestration" in arms reach. But no I don't care about playability and live limitations at all. At this stage in my career I'm a sample composer. I just needs to sound good (please purists, don't hate me^^)



aaronventure said:


> Define "effective".



Effective in the sense of musically satisfying and structurally appropriate and not for the sake of complexity.
Powell nails it here:


I guess my main problem is figuring out the notes for the run. A little bit of transcribing will help me here.

Who is doing the runs in an Orchestral context? Some observations:
Violin,Viola, less common Cello 
Harp (I guess technically you would call it glissando instead of runs)
Flutes, Clarinets, less common Oboe
Xylophone/Glockenspiel

Right?


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## Lassi Tani (Feb 1, 2018)

Nils Neumann said:


> I can't follow you here. In my example I was speaking of a Dominant to Tonic resolution. The F flat should be no problem when it play's in a C-major?
> 
> I just discovered that BWW includes the same run builder as Orchestral String Runs, I love it so far, but definitely needs some time to master.



I guess I was half asleep while reading your question. Of course there's no problem :D. Sorry about that. Only issues could be that the prerecorded runs are just a bit inflexible. Always fixed amount of notes thus the length is fixed too.

In BWW there are also Run transition patches, which have a blurred sound when played fast, which I use all the time.



Nils Neumann said:


> Who is doing the runs in an Orchestral context? Some observations:
> Violin,Viola, less common Cello
> Harp (I guess technically you would call it glissando instead of runs)
> Flutes, Clarinets, less common Oboe
> Xylophone/Glockenspiel



As you can see you listed intruments in middle and high registers. Those are the common ones. Note that runs can also start with low instruments and continue to higher register instruments. Also in an orchestral context every instrument doesn't have to do the run, trills go well together with runs, and timpani rolls and other instruments could do crescendo. There are lots of possibilities, how to orchestrate runs and how to combine them with other instruments.

Transcribe, and test what you study in practice. I'm looking forward to hear the results of your study!


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## aaronventure (Feb 1, 2018)

Nils Neumann said:


> I guess my main problem is figuring out the notes for the run



It is often that the little "segments" of a run start and/or end on important chord notes. Then you just fill in everything in between. So think of it like either your main melody or a counterpoint figure with all the holes inbetween filled up.



Nils Neumann said:


> A little bit of transcribing will help me here


Don't forget to try and write your own runs. Like, write a melody, and try to make it sound like a run. Or write a melody then a counterpoint figure and try to make that counterpoint figure sound like a run. You'll see it's not that hard.

Also one thing I always take in account for runs is that they're a developmental tool most of the time, especially when used for counterpoint. Don't blow your load too early. Runs are super cool, and their impact is so much more meaningful if you earn them.


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## JohnG (Feb 1, 2018)

From some of the foregoing discussion, it appears that at least some hope the subject of runs to be "quick and dirty," which of course if could be if you confine yourself to a lick here and there into a downbeat. 

But there is so much more to consider -- runs can be the entire texture of lengthy passages, or create energy around an otherwise less-exciting melody to extend its usefulness in a score or longer work. To see what a master like John Williams does with short runs, long runs, and very extended runs -- not all at ff dynamic either -- then there is a bit of study involved, but well worth it, even if you only have an hour once in a while for it.

Fortunately, it's easy to get materials; for less than the cost of a single community college course you could buy some of JW's scores and get a full education on how to use runs (and just about everything else, orchestration-wise).

Here are three good ones for runs:

*1. Adventures on Earth (E.T. score)* -- has everything from quick one-beat runs to multi-bar "events" that are runs. As with most of the JW traditional scores, lots of different orchestrations of runs along the way too. Note that, in determining how to craft runs, one has to consider tempo -- he will write 9 notes in a beat sometimes, but the tempo can't be insane or it's just an unplayable (or inaudible) mess.

*2. Superman March* -- not my top favourite of JW's scores, but an orchestration paradise. Runs orchestrated in a variety of ways. Plus those viola parts -- wowsa.

*3. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone* -- Hedwig's Theme alone is jaw-dropping. Also, jaw-droppingly hard to play, so if you are writing for live players, be careful about all the skips and mid-bar jumps he has. Of course, if you are using midi or have access to the absolute A players in London, have at it! Harry's Wondrous World also has plenty of runs, and also contains a trove of ideas about "decorative" woodwind writing (and cello arpeggios....everything).

The other pieces in the printed score for HP don't all correspond to the version of the soundtrack I have, but there is at least one reasonable performance by Northwestern University players on Youtube that you can follow along. Probably more.


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## Rohann (Feb 1, 2018)

Great points! Ditto on the interesting runs part. Case in point re: what John said:



Another example:



As a newbie to some of this, I've actually found my guitar background to be helpful. Fast players can easily write "get from point A to B" runs -- pick a start note and a target note, figure out timing, figure out the tonality (or scale), figure out a pattern (straight scale tones, 1234-2345-3456-4567, 1234-3456-5678, 12-31-43-54, etc) and bingo. The interesting fast players can do way more than that. Standard shredding for the sake of being fast can be kind of boring, but then you have guys like this: 

(3:27 or so)


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## Dale Turner (Feb 2, 2018)

Also quite a bit of blazing woodwind "rips" in Desplat's two Harry Potter scores (as well as Rise of the Guardians).


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 5, 2018)

Thank you guys, really appreciate your input!
Approaching runs with the guitar in mind is a really good tipp!

Here is a mock up of Wagners Ride of the Valkyries, I'm surprised how well I turned out.


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## Steve Martin (Feb 5, 2018)

This sounds very effective Nils. Thanks for sharing. Curious to know what libraries you are using also. Thanks, Steve.


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 9, 2018)

Steve Martin said:


> This sounds very effective Nils. Thanks for sharing. Curious to know what libraries you are using also. Thanks, Steve.


Mainly:
Strings:Orchestral String Runs,CSS
Brass: HWB
WW: BWW


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## Nils Neumann (Feb 9, 2018)

After transcribing a bunch of pieces, finally heres my own take on this topic.
My mission was to create a big crescendo, orchestrated with (way to many) runs, trills, glissandi.
Accidentally took me 4 days to complete. 


Strings:CSS, Orchestral String Runs
Brass: HWB, Ark3
WW: BWW, Ark1, Ark2,
Percussion: Hz01, HWP, Ark3

All Questions answerd. Thank you again for helping me out here!


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## Steve Martin (Feb 10, 2018)

Thanks for the Details Nils. Yes, I also enjoyed listening to the other track you just shared as well  Sounds great!


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## raidmarji (Mar 27, 2019)

Use my library, The most realistic with NO Articulations, depends on the player. It is Called HR Strings.


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## Illico (Mar 27, 2019)

raidmarji said:


> Use my library, The most realistic with NO Articulations, depends on the player. It is Called HR Strings.


Sorry, but it sounds fake for me.


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## Nils Neumann (Mar 27, 2019)

raidmarji said:


> Use my library, The most realistic with NO Articulations, depends on the player. It is Called HR Strings.


Compare that to OT - Orchestral String Runs

yes, a little hidden in this action cue, but not nearly as robotic as the videos you posted.


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## Nate Johnson (Jun 24, 2021)

can I ask a dumb question?

If you don't own a dedicated 'runs' library, what articulation(s) are to be used when building runs from scratch? Seems like runs and arpeggios are typically notated as slurs, so in sample library language, would 'long' articulations be the target? 

@Nils Neumann - JESUS - _nice_ work on your examples!


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## Henning (Jun 24, 2021)

Yep, OT String Runs is still unbeaten for realistic runs. Wish someone would take up on this concept (I mean, the lib is 10 years old) and enhance this with some more short phrases, RR and more dynamics.


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